# How to fertilize a low tech, low light gravel substrate tank?



## tiffc

I've been waiting for weeks to post a thread on this, hoping to find the info on my own...it seems like there's always a different factor in someone else's tank that doesn't match mine. Therefore I can't seem to figure out just what my tank dosing needs to be.

First off, a list of helpful facts about my setup:
-20 gallon long tank, set up mid-December 2009 (the tank is only 12 inches tall)
-hard tap water, ph of 8 in tank, 0 amm., 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates.
-currently just 5 danios in tank, a couple snails...will be adding more fish next week.
-plain gravel
-NO added CO2!! (I want to keep this tank low tech as possible and I cannot dose with Excel due to anacharis being sensitive to it)
-Plants are java ferns, java moss, anubias, anacharis, Najas sp "Roraima" (would like to eventually add Vals to give height to the sides)
-2 T8 18W lights comes out to 1.8 WPG in a 12inch deep tank (GE Aquarays Plant & Aquarium bulbs I believe...I've read good things about plant growth and pleasing light with them)
-photoperiod was just switched to 12pm-4pm then a siesta, the back on from 6pm-10pm. (I read that this will help keep CO2 levels from decreasing rapidly in a tank that has no CO2 added in. Walstad Method)
-Water Changes 20-30% weekly, light gravel vacuuming and pruning of algae covered leaves.

I've been having thread/hair algae for a few weeks, also what seems like brush algae on my driftwood and a few java leaves (Brush Algae is primarily underneath the outflow of HOB on driftwood)

Fertilizing has been 1-2ml of Flourish and NPT once a week--this is where I don't know if I'm missing the dosage, causing algae. My plants seem fine, a little die off of Anacharis but always new growth. With harder water, should I not use so much micro ferts? Or does that even matter?

I'm sorry for this being a long thread...I want to give AS MUCH info on my tank as possible to get the answers I need! I know I need to find that balance of nutrients/light/CO2 to get the algae to disappear. Any thoughts would be great.


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## Philosophos

My advice would be to find a pre-existing method and go with it in full. You're mixing principles from multiple methods in ways that conflict right now, and you haven't had enough time to learn why they do. Any of the major systems work as a whole, and each one caters to a different set of goals.

Regardless of the system, there are a few things your doing that could be changed to make your life easier in the short term.

Lets start by balancing your CO:light:nutrient ratios with what you have. To start, your lighting should go down. Either find a way to obscure the lighting or raise it higher above the tank until you're at about 3/4 the level of what you've got right now. If you like, do some DIY CO2 and/or excel. Do not keep your light as is and raise the CO2, you're probably better off keeping the plants moving as slow as possible until you've had the time to figure things out. At this rate, flourish dosed as per instructions along side feeding should keep your plants happy enough.

For the future, work to find yourself some better substrate. Regardless of method, your life gets a whole lot easier when you've got nutrients in your substrate and a decent CEC (cation exchange capacity). For El Natural this means capping one of a few kinds of soil with sand or gravel. For other methods, things tend to be a bit more open. Good, cheap substrate can be as easy as a bag of Turface or kitty litter and a little osmocote.

My bias right now is to send people off on the same course I'm telling you to maintain your tank with for a while before they decide on their method. It doesn't allow for the same full achievements of each method, but it doesn't invest a whole lot either. As for the methods, neither is ideal for someone buying their first handful of plants from the LFS. El Natural is for people who want to put their plants in one place, leave them there, and keep it simple. EI is what happens when you've decided to put CO2 in your tank and raise your light high enough to need NPK dosing besides fish food. I don't believe the average beginner is ready to just put their plants in one place and leave them, and I don't think faster paced growth is what most people are ready for when they first start out. These are ugly stereotypes of both, but precisely what the spec methods for each cater to. By the time you get to making the choice, your attitude towards your planted tank will tell you which direction is best. After a while, you'll be able to take from every method to find what works best to make the tank you want.

This is, of course, the responsible way. Some of us saw our direction the day we stopped looking at plants as ornaments on the side, and toughed out the growing pains of jumping in all at once.


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## tiffc

Thanks for the advice. I will raise up my lighting some kind of way to decrease it. I originally had a one T8 bulb fixture which would give me about .8 watts per gallon...is that too little? If it is, I'll stick to my two bulb fixture and raise it.

I understand what you're saying about finding the method that works for me...I really like the El Natural. I think I will wait to change the gravel to a soil topped with gravel next year when I move. It seems like the easiest thing to do. I'll be tearing down the tank anyway.

Thanks for your help


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## Diana K

A little over 1 wpg ought to be good. Raise the fixture. 
At about 1 wpg my plants used potassium and iron, and I started a low dose of Excel. Skip it, though, with Anacharis and Val. 

I would add fertilizer tablets deep under the gravel. 

The ultimate goal of a better soil is a very good on. Gravel does not hold fertilizers in a way that plants can use them. The fertilizer that might find its way into the gravel, just flows right out again with the water movement. 

Finer soil with have a better cationic exchange capacity. This means that when some fertilizer ends up in the soil the soil will hold it in a way that plants can use it whenever they need it, and this fertilizer does not drift in the water to feed algae.


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## tiffc

Thanks Diana, I will for the mean time add fert tabs for the Anacharis and for when I do get the Vals.

I need to figure out just how much higher to raise the light fixture.


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## tiffc

I raised my lighting to about 1.5 inches higher than it was before, just sitting on top of the glass canopy.

I also just ordered Diana Walstad's book  I can't wait to start reading it!


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## Philosophos

Diana K said:


> and this fertilizer does not drift in the water to feed algae.




So are you saying that you don't think non-limiting nutrients in the column prevent algae, or that you can actually keep nutrients below the point of equilibrium? Maybe something else?


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## Shurik

Dear Tiffc! About two years ago I stumbled into this forum and started my tanks almost like El natural, mixing all the methods and ways, confusing CO2 with H2O and H2SO4 didn't look any different to me either. Well, almost like that 

Two years later I still don't know what I am doing, but I am really happy I went with the soil under my gravel, because I can get away with only occasional use of Excel. That's it. 
I am totally agree with the idea of nutrients in the substrates, things do go easier, you get some flexibility with ferts and this method is more forgiving, to my little experience. You can still add more lights, CO2, filters and convert it into more high tech tank later on, if you get bored with what you have. Also I agree it is difficult for a newbie not to fiddle with plants :rock:, constantly moving them all over the place, of course you want to play with the tank and see some different things happening.
But I discovered that if you do it slowly and carefully enough, even with the soil under the gravel it is still possible to replant the plants and move some things around, if you really need to or can't resist the temptation. Nothing is impossible! :bounce:

The only thing you should really carefully plan before hand is your hardscape. Make sure you are happy with the position of your bigger rocks before putting in everything else.

For my 50 gal I used this method of mineralization by AaronT and I would highly recommend it. The only thing is it was technically somewhat problematic in my tiny apartment, but I still pulled it off:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

I really like the results and Aaron did help me a lot, thanks for his patience.

My two other tanks do have just a regular Home Depot cheapest soil, and this is fine too, they do well but for some reason one of them has never ending hair algae problem (I just got rid of it and can't believe it myself!) and another one in the beginning had such a severe ammonia outbreak that I almost lost all my fish. :shock: Yes, it was very severe and lasted for about two weeks or so, well, it felt like forever, and the numbers were really high. it is difficult to know what's in that soil we buy(did I get some dead animal in there?:icon_hang) and please don't repeat my mistake of not checking the water for ammonia for a *longer *time then it is usually recommended. Just to be on the safe side.

I wish you best of luck and say hello to your danios


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## tiffc

Thanks Shurik! I do need to get soil in there, but I can't picture tearing down the tank and adding soil to it in my small upstairs apartment. I will leave it until I move out of it, which should be next year. With the plants I have now, most of the bunch take up nutrients from the water (java ferns, anubias) Since I raised up the lighting fixture yesterday, I'm hoping to see improvement in algae reduction. I will probably not dose so much NPT either....maybe skip to 2 ml of Flourish a week.

I need to research fert tabs, so that I can use those for the Anacharis and once I get Vals. With tabs in the substrate, I may not need to dose much at all.

My Danios are doing great, like always. They're such easy fish


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## tiffc

Hum, so root tabs seem a bit tricky...gotta make sure they stay deep under the gravel or risk them getting into the water column....


I've read good reviews so far on Seachem's Flourish tabs. They don't break apart as easily as some others do.

Part of me wonders if I should just hold out on adding any root tabs/new substrate in this tank.I could reconsider these options for a larger tank in the future! Maybe this current tank can be my low light java fern/anubias tank??? I'll have to keep researching 

Thanks for all the advice and feel free to keep ideas coming! I always get great help here


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## Shurik

I got another idea! :loco:

*Clay balls! *It is almost like making your own fertilizer tabs, only you are in control of what you are putting in there. At some point I was changing some things around and yes, lost some of the soil under the gravel and created some giant mess. Any ways, I made some clay balls, mixed it with a bit of a soil and I think added some potash. Then I dried them out and was able to shove it back under the gravel. You need to do it really quickly before they fall apart in the water. Placing them under the substrate provides direct fertilization of stem and rooted plants, just like tabs, but only it is not really tabs at all. You don't have to cover all the bottom, but only where you need it. It is much better than nothing at all, this is for sure.

I understand you so well, I live in the small one bedroom apartment and can see the picture, can't wait to move into the bigger place, perhaps next year. 

Back to the clay balls. You need red pure clay *without* any polymers. I think at Michael's you can find one. It's called Mexican pottery clay. Although there are other sources of pure pottery or modeling clays without any additives.

Farther research is needed here. :typing: 
It is just an idea, an option of how to put some soil and whatever else you need under your substrate, if you decide you want to do that.

Cheers!:high5:


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## tiffc

Hey! I did read about those somewhere...it was probably on this site LOL. That could be an option too. It kinda reminds me of an art project  Ahhh, I wish I could be back in college taking my art courses again...

Thanks for your help, I will look further into this. I'm awaiting a shipment of fish sometimes today for the tank! It's like Christmas


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## goldier

I like the clay ball idea a lot! 

It gives an option to replenish the micronutrients for the substrate after a while without having to break down the tank and restart, or you can strategically give a fert boost to certain plants any time. 

A local pottery club is also a good place to find pure clean clay. Get 1 block to last you a lifetime.


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## tiffc

thanks goldier! I just remembered I have a friend who (I think) works at a pottery making studio. I'll have to give her a call.


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## Tuiflies

I've also heard of people freezing wet soil (mud) in ice cube trays and inserting it below the gravel that way.


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## tiffc

Another great idea  thanks everyone, though I do want to learn the El Natural process, I think I will wait until I have a new tank to start from the beginning.

Everyone has provided a lot of info that will help me with further growth in my current tank without completely tearing it down. 

Thanks!


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## barbarossa4122

tiffc said:


> NO added CO2!! (I want to keep this tank low tech as possible and I cannot dose with Excel due to anacharis being sensitive to it)


Hi,

I am dosing Excel every day in my non co2 tanks and the Anacharis (lots of it ) is doing great, in fact it grows like crazy.


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## tiffc

Really, barbarossa4122? That's really interesting because I've always read that Excel will melt Anacharis quite easily. How much do you dose daily? Maybe you've just under the threshold of what it can take without melting. Glad it's working for you


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## tiffc

I just received Diana's book in the mail! I'm anxious to read it and learn more on the subject of plants and their role in aquariums!


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## barbarossa4122

tiffc said:


> Really, barbarossa4122? That's really interesting because I've always read that Excel will melt Anacharis quite easily. How much do you dose daily? Maybe you've just under the threshold of what it can take without melting. Glad it's working for you


Hi,

I dose 10ml Excel every day in my 55g and 5ml in my 30g. I am about to finish my Excel supply in a month or so but, I bought Metricide14 to replace it. Much , much cheapear and does the same thing.



> I must have not been clear. I meant that you can dilute the Metricide 14 with distilled water to be equal to excel, or like I do, you can just dose it at 100% and either use less metricide or dose more glutaraldehyde.
> 
> Metricide contains the only active ingredient in Excel and would save the average user a TON.
> 
> For instance...
> 
> 2x2L of excel(just over 1 gallon, would run you 62 bucks(before shipping) from Big als. (just the first I chose, not sure if it is cheapest)
> 
> 1x1 gallon of Metricide 14 is 24 bucks shipped for me, from DealMed
> 
> Now, assuming you dose it straight, 100%, not reduced at all, Metricide is 38% the cost of Excel. You would be paying 62% more for a lower concentration of Glutaraldehyde.
> 
> Now, lets assume that you dilute it at a ratio of 1.5(Glutaraldehyde):1(distilled water) you end up with a percentage of 1.8% Glutaraldehyde--just over the excel level. This will make your 1 gallon of Metricide turn into 1 2/3 gallon(1.666) gallons of Excel equivalent.
> 
> So, now, if diluted you would have the equivalent of about 100 dolars(before shipping) worth of Seachem Excel. On a 50 gallon tank, dosing at seachem dosing of 5ml per 50 gallons... you have 1261 doses... For 24 dollars.
> 
> If you don't dilute it, but still dose 100%, you would have 757 doses(on a 50g tank) and be more concentrated. On my 75 gallon tank I dose 10ml daily/every other day of 100% metricide 14(2.7%). I have 378 doses in my bottle.
> 
> The value is simple.
> 
> All for 24 dollars shipped to my door and about 3 minutes of math.
> __________________


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...ers/103970-will-excel-provide-enough-co2.html

Btw, it's on sale now at http://www.dealmed.com/Products/Surface-Disinfectants/Metricide-14-Day-1-Gallon


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## tiffc

Thanks for the thorough explaination 
Great info.


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## barbarossa4122

tiffc said:


> Thanks for the thorough explaination
> Great info.


 Welcome


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## tiffc

Just for an update since I raised my lighting by an 1.5 or so, I have gotten rid of the majority of algae that was there! It's now just patches of it here and there (I will do a water change tonight and remove the left over pieces) but I also completely cut out the ferts during that time too. So I'm going to dose a light dosing of Flourish once a week and hope that my fish food will cover the NPKs...I added quite a few more fish so I'm increasing the amt of food entering the tank.

My plants look very vibrant too, it's nice to not see algae all over them!


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## Philosophos

1.5wpg should be stable with heavy feeding for a while and fairly lax water changes. Once the plant mass builds, I'd move on to dosing everything at about 50% EI at the first sign of deficiency.


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## tiffc

Oops, sorry Philosophos, I meant that I raised the light 1.5 inches above the glass canopy I have. I originally had 1.8 WPG T8 over the tank, but am not sure after increasing the height of the light what I'm at now.

Thanks for your advice.


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