# 2x Hagen Ladder? Overkill



## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

is it okay to put 2 haggen ladder on my 29 gal. to have more CO2 instead of 2x 2 liter for just 1x ladder, im planning to do 2x 2 liter, each 1 liter has a ladder or this is a bad idea?

Any input will be appreciate, i have 2.9wpg


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## Astral (Sep 24, 2004)

I don't think it is a bad idea in fact you could time your DIY mix so that you don't have a lag.

Right now for my 15G I have 1 bottle hooked up to the ladder and another shooting straight up the intake of my AC mini.

Frank


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

yeah, i know it will be easy if i just put a ladder on each bottle, cause i think using 2x 2liter bottle in just 1 diffuser is complicated, just for me :-#


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

xcooperx said:


> yeah, i know it will be easy if i just put a ladder on each bottle, cause i think using 2x 2liter bottle in just 1 diffuser is complicated, just for me :-#


It's really not all that complicated however I understand your reservations. 2 ladders for your 29 gallon tank would be fine. Most people avoid using two ladders just because the ladders take up space and are an eye-soar if not hidden properly.

Tinker around with 2x2 Liter bottles connect to 1 ladder by a T-valve when you get the chance. You'll find that it's as simple as making the recipe itself.

-John N.


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

is the recipe for 2x2 liter in just one diffuser is same or i should make it half for eawch bottle, anyway do i really need 2 bottle for my 29 gallon, i have 2.9 watts?


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

It doesn't matter if a bunch of bubbles are running up one ladder at once. Better to just keep one ladder and use a T to combine the CO2 source bottles, or even better, build a powered/active reactor.

IME I need a little less than 2L of the regular CO2 mix per 10gals to keep BBA and such away while running high light. With high light you should use two bottles and stagger their start times (start them a week apart, change alternating bottles weekly) to minimize the effect of fluctuating output inherent in DIY. Care more about the nominal/minimal output than the average dissolved CO2 and you'll do great.

Just my experience / Hope this helps. Join SCAPE!


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

xcooperx said:


> is the recipe for 2x2 liter in just one diffuser is same or i should make it half for eawch bottle, anyway do i really need 2 bottle for my 29 gallon, i have 2.9 watts?


More CO2 never really hurts anything, unless you're getting such high levels that cause harm to fish. i would run (2) 2 liter bottles to one hagen ladder.

Each 2-Liter bottle recipe should have the full recipe. Only difference is that these bottles will be connect to each other and the ladder by a T. Having two bottles, gives you a change to alternate and swap one out every two weeks, and then the other out the next two weeks. This keeps the CO2 production nearly constant without having to wait a day for full production when redoing 1 bottle, or both bottles at the same time.

So 2 bottles, full recipe, and alternate every 2-3 weeks when replacing to keep CO2 at good levels.

-John N.


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

i dont get it, if i have 2 bottles, that 2 bottles will run and produce co2, then after 2-3 weeks i need to change the 2 bottles right, how do i alternate them if the 2 bottles is running?


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

You would change one bottle at a time, alternating bottles each time. In my experience the standard DIY CO2 mix can output for a month, but production is usually highest in the first couple of weeks. 

There are longer lasting mixes out there, and a search of the forum for the Nyberg method is probably as good a place as any to start. Personally, its easier to change fast simple mixes on the regular, and sometimes I increase the yeast simply because each of my bottles only run two weeks. (I use 1/4-1/2tsp per 2cups sugar now, eyeballed.)

Anyway, lots of different methods but the principles are the same. The common goal is to make the CO2 output steadier while keeping maintenence relatively low.


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

so if i change 1 bottle, the co2 from the other bottle will just go out to the tube and not to the tank


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Change one bottle quickly (within 15 mintues). While you change the bottle use a clothes pin, or black metal binder clip to pinch the open line to keep the CO2 from escaping completely from the bottle that is still on.

-John N.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

If you could hide them well, behind plants and such- you might actually get better CO2 distribution in your tank if you used two ladders, one on each end. I say this because the one problem I found with the ladder was that only the plants in the area immediate the ladder seemed to be benefitting, and the plants on the end opposite the ladder seemed to not do so well. With two ladders, you would probably have better diffusion throughout the tank. And, as a newbie to the process, it would be easier to see which bottle needed changing, as you could tell by the bubble output which mixture was almost run through it's course.

PS before you hook this up, make sure you check your Karbonate Hardness (KH) to see that the water is well-buffered. If it's not, you could have a rapid drop in your ph that will kill all your fish. This happened to me the first time I tried this, I set up the CO2 system on an unbuffered tank and my ph fell through the floor, killed three of my fish and most of my shrimp. Now that I know this is a problem I add a little Seachem Alkaline Buffer to the tank about once a month to keep things stable... it's no big deal really, just as long as you keep it in mind... chances are, you might not even have to worry depending on the water in your area, but you should check it in the beginning just to avoid any disasters.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

You can also stagger your start-ups, so that the second bottle starts one week after the first bottle started. Subsequently from thereon out, you'd be changing the older bottle every 2 weeks.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

Bert H said:


> You can also stagger your start-ups, so that the second bottle starts one week after the first bottle started. Subsequently from thereon out, you'd be changing the older bottle every 2 weeks.


That's how I do it with my two bottles changing them out on alternate weeks. Although when I start off I set up both bottles, except in one of them I use half the amount of sugar as I would normally use. That way, to begin with I have the output of two bottles but one runs out faster than the other so I have to change it sooner, thus starting the staggered changing process.


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

For the amount of space involved in two ladders and the price of both, why not consider a Barr-style active reactor? It would take up the same amount of space in the tank and would be MUCH more effective than the simple ladders. You might give it some thought. Good luck.


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

i already have the ladder so thats the only option i have, so you mean 2 ladder i think thats too much co2, correct me if im wrong the normal co2 level should range 30ppm only, and i only have 2.9wpg NO+CF


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

You should target in excess of 30ppm CO2 for at least two reasons: 

1) It's easier to grow without algae. It makes dosing easier. It makes everything easier. 

2) DIY CO2 output fluctuates by its nature. If you agree pH changes from CO2 won't affect fish (only KH changes), your goal should be to overshoot CO2 production so the minimum CO2 output is above that 30ppm target. Fluctuation at 30-40ppm matters less than 20-30ppm CO2.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

Yeah, shooting for 30ppm CO2 at all times is just about impossible with DIY... and also, I don't think the Hagen Ladders (while a nice easy route to go that does get favorable results), are the most effective CO2 method of diffusion... so you might as well overcompensate, there is nothing bad about this unless you keep an eye on the KH/PH levels and pay attention to the fish... if they are ever gasping at the surface of the tank in the mornings before the lights go on, you should probably start running an airstone at night, or unhook the CO2 while the lights are off.


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

i think 1x 2liter bottle is good for me right now, and sooner or later maybe ill go with the 2 bottle if i already have a lots of experiance about the relationship of co2 and Water chemistry. Ill go for the safe side first


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