# Cannister Filter Questions



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

Hi,
When setting up my 72 gallon planted discus tank, I purchased two Eheims Filters.(2128 & 2028-both Pro IIs). Thinking more is better, I bought over sized filters, supposedly for tanks up to 90 gallons.(each) Lately I have had a bacterial,, as well as an algae problem. I have been advised, that I don't have enough filtration for the size tank, and the bio load. GPH should be 10-15X the tank volume Checking the filter specs, I found that the 277gph is the pump output, and the flow is *172/198* gph. (with media). So with a combined flow rate of 370gph is that not CRAP? 
Is that not totally underpowered?? Its a little over 5 X the volume....
So now, I am looking for another canister filter, to add to the tank with the two Eheims. After spending over 600$ on the Eheims (with media) which cost more than the fish tank, and stand, I am thinking of purchasing the *Marineland C-530 Canister Filter*....... According to the specs, the flow rate is 530 gph, WITH Media. Its cheaper, with more flow, and better customer service than Eheim. :!:

Does anyone have experience with this canister??

Is my above analysis of my situation flawed?
Thanks


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I have exactly the same complaint about Eheims. They have a very slow flow rate. So slow they do not remove the debris. 

I had a Fluval 404 and an Eheim (one of the Eccos) on a 72 gallon bowfront tank. I was frequently cleaning the Fluval, it was getting full of debris. The Eheim just kept on running. Several times I took apart the Eheim only to see it did not need cleaning. 
I thought the location of the intake might have something to do with it. perhaps the Fluval was just in a spot the debris ended up. Switched locations of the filters. 
Did not change. The Fluval kept on getting the debris, the Eheim did not need cleaning anywhere near as often. It just was not picking up the debris. 

I had other problems with the Fluval, and no longer recommend this brand name. 

Now, to your specific set up:
Discus do not care for too much water movement. I have them (in that same 72 gallon tank) and when all the filters are newly cleaned they stay in the corners for a few days until they are ready to face the water flow. As the filters fill with debris and slow down they are more eager to travel all over the tank. 
I have found ways to direct the water flow so that there is plenty of circulation for the debris to get directed to the intakes without blowing the Discus around. I am now running an Aquaclear 110 and a 300 gph sump on this tank. (not too far off 10x the tank volume per hour) and a power head aimed at one spot with poor water movement. 
The 2 filters you have are not moving very much water, IMO. 

When you say bacterial problems are you saying your water is showing some ammonia or nitrite, suggesting problems with the nitrifying bacteria? 
Or are your fish getting bacterial infections such as Flavobacteria columnaris or other diseases? 

If there is a problem with the nitrifying bacteria look into these issues:
Nitrifying bacteria grows best under these conditions:

High oxygen. Good water flow through the media it is growing on. Good water movement through the filter. 

Plenty of media to grow on. Media that allows lots of water movement, but also has LOTS of surface area. The various media sold for this purpose is a good example. Pitted balls or ceramic media allow water to flow through, but the force is broken up so it is not too strong for the bacteria. Sponges are good, also. A coarse sponge allows water to flow through at a good rate, but also has enough lodging sites for bacteria. Many surfaces in the tank are good for nitrifying bacteria, too. A large ceramic castle is not so good. The smooth surface does not have many acres of good bacteria sites. Fine substrate is good, especially the upper layers close to the water that moves oxygen and ammonia to the bacteria. 

Low light. Nitrifying bacteria on the substrate is usually not on the uppermost layer on the top, but just below that, in the shade. 

Plenty of ammonia. 

High pH. Optimum is in the mid 7s. Acceptable is about 6.5 to 8. As you bet pH closer to 6 the bacteria has a harder time, and simply does not grow really well. I do not know if it is actually the low pH or the low mineral content that is common when the pH is this low. 

Some minerals, not much. A GH and KH of at least 3 German degrees of hardness is the minimum.

No toxic materials in the tank. Many fish medicines (especially antibiotics) can kill the nitrifying bacteria. These and many other bacteria live in a film, though, and are protected from many medicines. 

Do not clean them off of wherever they are growing. Do not use chlorine (bleach or even chlorinated water) or other cleansers to clean filter media. Rinse these and any other bacteria homes with water removed from the tank for a water change. Do not throw away the bacteria. Rinse and reuse the filter media until it is falling apart. Good sponges can last for years. Floss tends to mat up and does need to be replaced. If you have several media that get old like this then rotate which ones you replace so that you are throwing away less bacteria at any one time.


----------



## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

I have a 2028 on my 75. Thats it! Its plenty. Eheims are very efficient at filtering. High flow in HOBs are required because they dont filter well and they need to pass the water over and over to properly filter.

Add a powerhead to increase circulation if you think its necessary.


----------



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

Newt said:


> I have a 2028 on my 75. Thats it! Its plenty. Eheims are very efficient at filtering. High flow in HOBs are required because they dont filter well and they need to pass the water over and over to properly filter.
> 
> Add a powerhead to increase circulation if you think its necessary.


I have two Korilia 2's in my tank...................this is not about increase of circulation..........its about proper amounts of filtration...............of (over filtration) is always better, than under filtration.

Don't have any HOBs................
A 177 gph filter will ONLY degrade till serviced. (as any filter)

The impeller on my Eheims is about 1/3 the size as the one with the Magnum 350

My friends suggest 10 x 20 times volume of tank. They set up planted tanks for a living.

"I run about 10-20x the tank volume for filtration.
This means good filtration, canister/wet/dry/UV etc.
I'd suggest a UV for $$ fish also. Run during day time only.

Might take Gerry up to isolate the CO2 issue, but.........this might not have anything to do with plants or CO2 etc.

Water changes always help both Discus and plants.

With 10-20x the tank volume moving around, this is NOT a simple bare tank. This is a planted tanks with scaping etc, wood etc. This greatly reduces flow and provides plenty of regions for the fish to get out of the current. Fish get lazy in a small glass box, they need exercise, they have more vigor and eat better when they do.

Current is greatly reduced by plants, roughly 10X as much in a dutch style planted tank.

So keep that in mind, I shoot for 82-84F for the temps."

Regards, 
Tom Barr

*www.BarrReport.com

Thanks for your time!
*


----------



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

Diana K said:


> I have exactly the same complaint about Eheims. They have a very slow flow rate. So slow they do not remove the debris.
> 
> I had a Fluval 404 and an Eheim (one of the Eccos) on a 72 gallon bowfront tank. I was frequently cleaning the Fluval, it was getting full of debris. The Eheim just kept on running. Several times I took apart the Eheim only to see it did not need cleaning.
> I thought the location of the intake might have something to do with it. perhaps the Fluval was just in a spot the debris ended up. Switched locations of the filters.
> ...


Thanks, for the lengthy response.
It's encouraging, and reassuring, to find one as experienced as you, agreeing with my analysis.

In my tank I installed 2 Korilia 2s p/hs near the substrate--below where the discus habitat in the water column. This hopefully will provide circulation to the plants, to help control algae, yet not interfere with the fish.

When I mentioned bacterial problems, this issue was based on the following situation:
Awhile ago, I noticed a clear, gel like substance collecting, at the mouth of my drop checker, after 4 days of being in the tank Not knowing what it was, I asked around, and my friends that install planted tanks for a living, (Green Leaf Aquariums- Orlando) suggested it was a bacteria. As one new to planted tanks, I look to these super folks for input!!!

To answer your other questions: 
I use Eheim suggested media, that came with both filters, and do the proper maintenance.

For substrate I have aquariumplants.com substrate, which was highly recommended from Wattley Discus, whom are friends of my family, as well as our Discus breeder and suppliers of our CBW.

Our Ph is 7.2 prior to Co2 injection. Kh =4* GD.

Well I hope I have addressed all of your questions about our fishtank.
Again, I wish to thank you for time and input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:smile: [smilie=n:


----------



## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

A magnum 350 is not an efficient filter and so it has a high flow rate to pass the water over the filter more times than should be necessary.

I seem to have no problems running just a 2028 on a heavily planted 75.

Will the real Tom Barr please stand up?


----------



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

Newt said:


> A magnum 350 is not an efficient filter and so it has a high flow rate to pass the water over the filter more times than should be necessary.
> 
> I seem to have no problems running just a 2028 on a heavily planted 75.
> 
> Will the real Tom Barr please stand up?


From what I have heard the Magnum 350 is generally rated second best as a water polisher, only surpassed by the Diatom Vortex. When I check the output, it seems to be very strong, after pushing the water thru the cartridge that filters our .5 microns. Wouldn't that be called efficient?

You have more plant mass than I do........... could it be the plants are filtering and supporting your lack of mechanical filtration?

I think it largely depends on the bio load as well. I have 3 large discus, 3 large angels, 4 semi large clown loaches, and only do weekly 50 % w/c.

Last time I heard from T.Barr, not only did he stand up, but he was getting paid to lecture on planted tanks in Australia. Nice work if you can get it. Guess the Aussies think he's for real ?


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Filtration can be broken down into 3 parts, but most media do 2 or even all three parts, and some things that are not in the filter also filter the water. The efficiency of the whole system is part of the picture, and the efficiency of each component is the other part. 

Filter media with the main purpose of removing objects are usually sponges and floss sorts of things, and the fine filter media referred to as micron filters are all mechanical filter media. If the water flows through too fast the debris is knocked off the filter media and re-circulates in the tank until it is picked up again... and again... and again... 
A thicker mass of media will hold onto the debris better, even with a high water flow. Most canisters are set up so the water flows through a thick stack of media, so even with a lot of water flow the debris is trapped. Most HOB filters have thin cartridges that allow the debris to break loose. 

If the water is not circulated fast enough in the tank then the debris settles out in the tank and is not removed. (This was my problem when using the Eheims that I have). 

Chemical media can add things to or remove things from the water. Peat Moss adds organic acids and removes certain minerals. Coral sand adds minerals. Resin pouches can remove many different things. There are water softening pouches, nitrite removing pouches and many more. Their effectiveness depends on how bad the water is to begin with, how fast or slow the water passes through, and if the media is the right particle size for that rate of water flow. Water passing through too fast will not be altered. Water passing through too slow means the whole tank of water may not be treated in a timely manner. Some of the media that removes things chemically is in the form of a long lasting floss that is also a decent mechanical media. 

Biological filtration can be from nitrifying bacteria, but can also be from all the other living things in the aquarium. The goal of biological filtration is a balance that keeps fish and plants thriving. The 'waste' from one is 'food' for the other. 
Fish are a biological filter that removes oxygen and complex fertilizer (also called fish food) and provides CO2, nitrogen and other things for the plants' benefit. 
Nitrifying bacteria live on all the filter media, as well as many of the surfaces in the tank. If we were talking about a fish-only set up, or an aquarium with very few plants then we would be more concerned with the nitrifying bacteria. Yes, we want them to be alive. They are part of the complex system we want. These bacteria and many other organisms thrive under conditions that in general are good for fish, also. High oxygen, good water movement, lack of toxins. If there is something wrong with these bacteria (suggested by tests that show ammonia or nitrite rising) then we are also concerned that the conditions are not optimal for the fish or plants. 

Water movement plays several roles in the tank. 
Moving water moves the debris around, eventually the debris is close enough to the filter intake and is removed from the tank. 
Moving water circulates oxygen, CO2 and all the fertilizers that are dissolved in the water so the fish and plants have a good supply of whatever they need. 
If the water movement is too slow then the debris settles and is not removed. Anaerobic areas develop, leading to toxic conditions for the plants, beneficial bacteria and fish.Poor water movement is not just a number, but depends on how dense all the things are in the tank. Mostly plants, but also rocks (such as a Rift Lake tank, or a reef tank), driftwood, ceramic castles and fake (hollow) tree stumps. Poor water circulation might be in just a small problem spot (such as the inside of that fake stump). 

Adding up the gallons per hour from filters and powerheads is a beginning of understanding if there is too much or too little water movement in the tank, but it does not end there. Are the fish thriving? Fish from fast moving streams need a lot more water movement than fish from back waters of rivers or ponds. Are the plants thriving? Stagnant areas can develop as the plants grow, so an area that used to have good water movement might be blocked later. Are there algae problems? Some algae thrives in poor water flow areas. Some algae thrives in water with fertilizer problems such as too much or too little of something. Good water circulation helps to make sure that whatever fertilizer you add (Fish food or otherwise) is equally distributed, so there is neither a local accumulation nor dearth. Nitrate produced by the nitrifying bacteria will likewise be distributed for the plants' use. 

Anyway, back to the OP:
Clear goo-like accumulations might not be bacterial. Pond snail eggs are also found in a clear gel sort of mass. Usually in more protected areas, though, such as tucked into plants and rocks. Not often out in the open on upper level equipment. 

There are examples of clear goo being bacterial on land plants, but I do not think Slime Flux is a problem under water (in nature or aquariums). 

Beneficial microorganisms grow in the aquarium in a thin film that feels slimy on the many surfaces, including around every bit of soil in the substrate. This film is what binds fine soil particles together so the water does not cloud as much once the set up has matured. I don't think this material can become so profuse as to be described as a mass of gel, though. 

Loaches and some other fish may shed larger pieces of their slime coat, and this may appear in the water as thin strings of goo, or thicker masses of goo. Often this is in response to a water chemistry issue, or some other stress. 

There are some plants that might be somewhat gooey. Almost like a fishes' slime coat.


----------



## David Hui (Dec 10, 2004)

IMO, you have more than enough filtration as long as your filters are not clogged. What type of algae are you experiencing? How often do you feed your discus and what is your water changing schedule. Lastly, what kind of lighting are you using?


----------



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

David Hui said:


> IMO, you have more than enough filtration as long as your filters are not clogged. What type of algae are you experiencing? How often do you feed your discus and what is your water changing schedule. Lastly, what kind of lighting are you using?


Hi, 
I check the outflo of the dual spraybars, weekly after the water changes.(50%weekly- for years) I have had diatom algae, (probably due to the degraded lights), then I had cyanobacteria (BGA),(which I eliminated with a 3 day black-out). Now I have BBA. This was due to poor circulation, and/or unstable Co2.(I had a Rio pump fail on my Co2 reactor, and had to wait for a few weeks for the replacement- during which time there was no Co2) To wit, I installed powerheads, and a better Co2 dispersion system.( Dual Rhinox 5000 glass diffusers.)

I feed the fish twice a day, tetra bits with garlic guard, and live CBW. There is little or no food left, and the fish are GORGEOUS.

For lights I am using CF dual 65 watt Coralife on 4 inch legs........8 hours a day (2.16 wpg)

I think I will probably increase tank filtration to 15 times the tank volume (900gph), I am soon to increase my tank bio load by 3 discus (5 total), someone is getting out of the hobby and wants to give me the Wattley discus, so the more filtration, the better, esp with over stocked conditions. Even with OF, I might go with 2 X week w/cs.


----------



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

Diane K,

I think your original filter problem was due to the undersized Ecco Eheims filter. 

I am familiar with filter "dwell time", and have been conversing via the internet with Eheim customer service.

Suggested circulation rate and filtration rate standards are approximately the same 10-15 X tank volume. Factors include density of fauna, and bio load of flora. OF is only detrimental if it creates too much current.

My experience using a Magnum 350 with micron filter (8-10 years), is that it is engineered so that the output of the filter, comes from the core of the micron filter, so that the debris is left in the pump......and the flow rate is strong enough to collapse the paper filter, requiring a plastic screen supporter.........
My Diatom Vortex XL filter has even more flow rate............. it too was designed to be powerful enough to pull the water through the cloth bag, which is coated in DE, yet retain all the debris in the filter. One of the few filters that actually work against ich. Ofcourse both filters were designed as water polishers and not for the filtration of large debris..............
So I am not in complete agreement with the above analysis of water polishers not being effective. (Unless your experience was based on other types of ineffective filtration) 

By me decreasing the circulation by removing one of the two Korialia power heads, (-600 gph)and adding a 530 gph filter canister, the tank flow rate is about the same, but with better filtration, which basically gives me more "wiggle room".

I will probably never Know what the "gel" like substance, that seemed to attach itself to my d/c. I am curious what if any affect the 87* tank water has on this. But, I do know that the UV filter, seemed to eradicate it.

thanks for the education!!!


----------



## David Hui (Dec 10, 2004)

Sounds like you are doing everything right. If you could add gravel vacuuming to your weekly water change, you would probably eliminate reoccurrence of the BGA and Diatom. Don't forget regular filter cleaning would help too. BBA is another story...


----------



## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

David Hui said:


> Sounds like you are doing everything right. If you could add gravel vacuuming to your weekly water change, you would probably eliminate reoccurrence of the BGA and Diatom. Don't forget regular filter cleaning would help too. BBA is another story...


 Yes, the fish tank seems much better. 
I haven't had any algae reappear. I still have BBA, but it is a LOT better than before, hopefully on the decline, I had to replace some plants, that were covered in it.

My substrate is baked, which makes it hard to vacuum. Also I have plant covering most of the substrate.

Filters maintenance are on a pc shareware program. The pc tells me when the maintenance is due.

Another suggestion, which sounded good to me, was to "play" with amounts of trace minerals. The underlying theory is that if there is a shortage of these for plant uptake, then the plants would not uptake some of the macro nutrients, but the algae will. So, I have increased my trace dosing by one third a week.

I am using Seachem Excel on the BBA, with some success.

Also, using a Magnum 350 - 5 days a week (takes that long to plug the flow on the micron filter) plus the two Eheim Canisters. The water seems clearer.


----------

