# Help DIY co2 solution, 3/4 lost of fish population



## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

hi guys. 

i was using the HAGEN Bio-Component-Set before but then decided to change to the DIY mix... but something went wrong, and i lost 3/4 of my fish population. 

here is my solution: a cup of sugar that i mixed with about 2 litres of water, then add a mixture of 1/2 tablespoon of yeast and 1 tablespoon of baking powder.

it start producing Co2 immediately after setting the whole thing. i noticed that some of the mixture went into the aquarium.

so, any suggestion of what i should do, or what i did wrong?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi phea2,

Although it could have been the mixture, it could also have been excessive CO2. When did this happen?

BTW, I have been to Ireland. Beautiful country and very friendly people....just like APC! LOL.


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## cbwmn (Dec 18, 2007)

That’s a lot of yeast and baking soda.
In my smaller tanks I use ½ teaspoon of yeast and ¼ teaspoon of baking soda with 
2 cups of sugar in ½ gallon of water.

With that much yeast/baking soda, I think you gassed your livestock.
Good luck
Charles


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi phea2,
> 
> Although it could have been the mixture, it could also have been excessive CO2. When did this happen?
> 
> BTW, I have been to Ireland. Beautiful country and very friendly people....just like APC! LOL.


Thanks for your reply guys.. It happened twice, exactly a week ago and two days ago. lost 1/4 of the popullation the first time and the rest the second time. now i have only 1/4 left.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> That's a lot of yeast and baking soda.
> In my smaller tanks I use ½ teaspoon of yeast and ¼ teaspoon of baking soda with
> 2 cups of sugar in ½ gallon of water.
> 
> ...


i will try your mixture.. and i hope it works this time, btw, i'm using the Hagen Nutrafin C02 System for my 60l tank


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

i almost forget something, there are bubbles (of what i believe is Co2) coming out front the Gravel. do you think i should remove the gravel and put a new one or just leave it the way it is and keep doing the water change ( 75%) ?

i have only 4 fish left, 1 albinos cory, 2 black widow and 1 neon tetra :-(


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi cbwmn,

I am sorry about your fish loss, I too hate losing fish even the old ones. I think cbwmn is on the right track, you must have been generating a lot of CO2.

I am familiar with the Hagen systems and they work well, unless a snail get in the way! You didn't mention your aquarium size but if you are generating more than 1 bubble per second (1 BPS) for a 20 gallon (75 liters) you may be overdoing the CO2. I check my CO2 level using a drop checker with a 4.0 dKH indicator solution and try to maintain about a 30 PPM CO2 concentration.

Let us know how things go!


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> You didn't mention your aquarium size but if you are generating more than 1 bubble per second (1 BPS) for a 20 gallon (75 liters) you may be overdoing the CO2. I check my CO2 level using a drop checker with a 4.0 dKH indicator solution and try to maintain about a 30 PPM CO2 concentration.


Thanks for the tips, i have a 60L Hagen Elite 60.


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

Here are some photos as I promised... hope you might be able to help determine what algae it is, and if there are any more changes I could make.

























I've upgraded my filter to a Fluval u2, and added some Hygrophila Difformis in front of the filter..

Thanks for all the help so far.


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

Here are some recent photos with the Fluval u2, but you cant really see it..


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi phea2,

If you are referring to the two larger clumps of grey-green material in you tank it looks like Cladophora. It is one of the more difficult algi to eliminate.

Here is where I go when algae issues arise. Otherwise, I like the way the tank looks.


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi phea2,
> 
> If you are referring to the two larger clumps of grey-green material in you tank it looks like Cladophora. It is one of the more difficult algi to eliminate.


i think you are refering to what is suppose to be my java moss covered by algae. the last photo shows the algae.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi phea2,

Opps! My bad! It is hard to tell in the picture, but the algae in the bottom picture looks like Staghorn algae. If you go to the website referenced you will find the recommendation to increase your circulation and CO2 level. Since you are doing DIY, and based upon your recent experiences, that may not be possible. It also states that it may respond to treatment with Excel.

Keep us posted!

Let's go back a step. How much light and for how long(wattage and duration? What Are you fertilizing and with what? Water changes, how much, how often?


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi phea2,
> Let's go back a step. How much light and for how long(wattage and duration? What Are you fertilizing and with what? Water changes, how much, how often?


2x18 watts for 12 hours (4hours on- 2hours off- 6hours on) . 
fertilizer is Tropica once a week
1/3 water change weekly 
but now i'm also using the easycarbo and i've notice that the Algae start to disappear and that the plants are growing quicker.. i will use it for only one week, then stop cause i want to introduce some crystal red shrimps and i've heard that the easycarbo is toxic for fish.

Oh and i my Co2 is working perfectly now. just had to put less water ad using brown sugar instead of the white one.


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## MGoerke (Jan 4, 2010)

i am gonna agree! i did the same thing my 1st mix, i miss read and out in about the same amount you did of yeast, but i had been checking my ph & kh every hour to watch my dissolved co2 levels and my ph dipped from my normal 7.2 down to 6.4 do i pulled it off for the night, re went over what i made and realized i piss read/measured my yeast amounts!


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

more important than CO2...did you properly cycle your tank?

that could have killed them off overnight as well with little notice


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## Shrimp (Jun 1, 2010)

My DIY yeast system has been:

2L bottle 
- 1L water
- 1/2 Cup sugar
- 1 tsp protein powder
- 1 tsp baking soda

It work's great and lasts about 3 weeks and produces and average of 2 BPS. Also since the bottle is only half way filled there is no overflow into the tank. Try it out!


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

What are you doing with the co2 when the lights are off.
Plants don't use co2 through the night hours,so if you are still defusing when the lights are off you will get a buildup that becomes some type of acid that is deadly.


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## phea2 (May 11, 2010)

My Co2 stays on durig the night. i'm using the DIY one and i have no idea of how to stop it during the night...


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

Ya I was in the same predicement, but you can do what I do and pickup a gang valve at your lfs that
will allow you to redirect the flow of co2 either through a diy carbon filter, if a window is close enough you can just redirect out that. You will want to use one of these methods because if u don't you will smell the brew in the room after awhile.


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

one other thing, if u use a powerhead as your difusion method u can shut offthe power head. this will allow the bubbles to rise to the surface with minimal diffusion.
Also agitating the water with an airbubbler that is on a timer so that it turns on when the lights go out will help remove leftover co2.
Hope this helps!


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

If your tank is set up correctly...you wont need to do any of that...
the level of O2 in the water is independent of the level of CO2 in teh water and vice versa

with the proper amount of surface movement...you can leave your CO2 running into the tank 24/7 with no ill effects...which is easier than the above suggestions...tho there is nothing wrong with those suggestions


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

I agree with killacross to some degree, but were not talking about weather or not there is enough
oxygen in the water, rather we need to know if the dissolved co2 measured in ppm is reaching a toxic level. Think of it like this (1ST mourning start 0ppm - 1ST night end 30ppm) through surface agitation You get rid of 25ppm now on the 2nd morning your starting with 5ppm and by the end of that night your at 35ppm. With this compounding each night by about the third or forth night you are putting alot of stress on the fish. And if your depending on the surface movement to remove the unwanted co2 at night and are succesful, just imagine how much co2 your wasting when u want it during lights on.
Well I guess it's all up to how much do you like your fish and are u willing to risk loosing more for the inconvience of having to be better safe than sorry.
Buy a drop checker and keep an eye out for your ph droping further and further between water changes.


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

^^i agree a drop checker would be a wise and simple investment

BUT...the example you give is faulty...by your logic, leaving your CO2 on 24/7 would kill your fish within a week...which just isnt true

there is a limit to how much CO2 you can dissolve into your water at a certain dkh and kh and temp yada yada yada...

thats why DIY CO2 is not as precise as a pressurized system running on an efficient diffusion system...with a pressurized system...set up your tank with proper surface movement so your fish have plenty of O2 to breathe. O2 freely moves from the air to the water with adequate surface movement (not agitation - which off gasses your CO2)

THEN you run your CO2 thru a bubble counter/needle valve to get your 30ppm and then you can leave it...you can hook up a solenoid timer to save your CO2 from "wasting" but I just dont bother because Ive been running a 5lb tank on a 20Long 24/7 for about 7~8 months (early christmas present for myself) now and have BARELY used any CO2...drop checker is a beautiful lime green 24/7 as well...the CO2 peaks in the water and doesnt increase from there...IF i were to increase bpm then yes i could gas my fish...


back when I was first starting I used DIY CO2 as well...I also let it run 24/7 with no ill effects...however, I couldnt get it to be consistent from day-to-day so I finally broke down and went pressurized...which everyone eventually does  which everyone does eventually with the same results (you cant find a person who regrets going pressurized)!


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

I do see what killacross is saying and I do agree. But in my set up believe it or not I can obtain much higher levels then 30ppm, and with it being diy I can't restrict the bubble count or I will have a yeast bomb waiting to go off.
My recipe is the same as most:
- 2 cups of suger into 2litre
-then 2cups of boiling water and mix completely 
-then 1/4 teaspoon of bakingsoda(my water is 3dkh)
-then 3 cups of cold water and mix once again
-then in aseperate container I mix 1 cup of warm water and 1/2 teaspoon of yeast and let stand for 20 mins.
-Then add the yeast solution to the 2litre and mix gently.
This mix last me up to 2 weeks. I defuse through my 240 gph Korilla(propeller pointed at 45 down).
My tank is 75 gallons and from what i have read,I shouldn't be able to obtain that much co2 from DIY.
Damn, now I have to cut down the amount that I'm putting in....What a dumb problem to have!
So I guess my best bet is to maybe take one of my 2litre's out of the equation. If I do this do you think I could run 24/7.
Up untill now if I was running 24/7 by about the end of the third day my ph is too low and my drop checker is starting to go yellow(1/3 Water change).The only way I have been able stop this from happining is through redirection of co2 at night.
After reading this over you made me realize pressurized co2 will be the way to go.


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

Killacross, Do u think if I simply raise the dkh of my Tank water it will allow me to run 24/7 without modding my DIY setup.And if so what should I raise it to. It's pretty low(3dkh where I live)
I do understand dkh and it's relationship to ph and co2, but I'm no chemist
Higher dkh = less ability for water to hold co2?


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

Im not really sure what you mean in the first post about the drop checker going yellow with a 33% water change. Tap water has a significant amount of CO2 dissolved in it already...so maybe that could affect your drop checker reading

as far as dkh and kh and such...I have no clue about that...I just bought the drop checker with the 4dkh solution because thats what "they" said to do...I dont even own the test kits to find out my water parameters (save nitrogen cycle - which i dont even use anymore because you can visually see when a tank has cycled)...

...I never learned any of that conversion factor stuff because I jus adjusted my pressurized system until my drop checker was the shade of green I think it should be at

when I was doing DIY (2-2gallon Hawaiian Punch juice bottles into a 20long), my drop checker stayed yellow for the first 4-5 days and would gradually turn blue by the 10-11th... so I know you can get higher levels...we just dont know how high

my fish didnt really show any signs of asphyxiation (aka surface breathing or lethargy - easy to do with pressurized again) and my plants LOVED it, so I ignored it...I jus got tired of constantly changing out bottles and wanted a consistency that DIY just cant offer and having to compensate for the cold weather slowing the yeast/co2 production rates was a pain. Remove the factors of uncertainty and voila! perfection...or at least 99.2349812%


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks for the reply.....And what I meant about the drop checker was that when it turned yellow I did a 33% water change to remove the toxic buildup.
I could just be paranoid.
I also use 4dkh reference solution in my checker that I made myself with bakingsoda and distilled water. Have u heard of this, I found it online. Also I would like to know how long does your 5lb bottle last.


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

Killacross not sure if u know this or not but u can calculate co2 in ppm by using the ph and dkh of your tank water. All u do is measure both ph and kh and using a c02 table that cross references the two and that will give u co2 in ppm.These charts are all over the net. Ph is relitive to the amount of co2 at a givin kh.KH is carbonate hardness and this is the ability to resist change to ph, basicly kh is a buffer/sponge if u will, that absorbs acids in your tank without altering ph.
Having said that...... maybe if i increase my kh to 6-7 from 3 It will allow me to run the higher ppm of co2 and still have a good ph level.
- low kh=big ph swings
- high kh= little ph swings
All this can become a factor when trying to keep fish from dying when using co2 in low kh tanks.
I think we got hung up purely on co2 and o2 and not all the contributing factors.
PHEA2..... what is the dkh of your tank if you don't mind me asking.


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

^^i understand that theres charts and conversion tables and such, just never had to use them. same thing with the DIY 4dkh reference solution. I looked in to it and just decided id rather spend the $10 to get it shipped to me...jus personal preference, some DIY stuff Id definitely do (ie lighting project or making a stand), others id just pay (jus buying a tank or filter, tho Im sure I COULD make them myself)

it sounds like a plan with raising your kh to counter a large ph swing...just wouldnt kno how much. as for my 5# tank...from the looks of it...it will run for the next 5yrs...I bought it mid dec' 09. It was filled to 1000 psi. 7 months later its at 999.75 psi. I run it through a needle valve at about 2-3 bps into a 20" rex grigg style external CO2 reactor powered by an eheim 2232 into a 20Long. Drop checker is line green on the other side the best part is i use the cheap milwaukee set up (the one you see on the internet for $85-90 shipped). I jus plug the solenoid in and let it run 24/7.

i also have a paintball set up that i run on a 10gal. I use the red sea regulator. Unfortunately, it doesnt seem to hold on as long as the 5# tank. The 20oz co2 tank will probably last about 4-5 months. the worst part is i bought two plus the regulator. so paintball co2 = $170, 5# co2 = $190. $20 more for almost 2x the CO2 and like 1/10 of the refills.


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## Dave1Bostock (Jun 15, 2010)

wow........ I never would have expected a bottle to last that long,this is why i went DIY. I was trying to avoid frequent trips to get the refills. 
Glad it's the weekend.....looks like I have one more project to work on..........PRESSURIZED CO2!!!!
Thanks for the info.


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## chipperone1 (Jun 18, 2010)

In my experience DIY CO2 is not worth it. Excel or the bottle is the way to go.


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