# Possible Budget Auto Doser?



## Jeffww (May 25, 2010)

I've been thinking about possible designs for auto dosers. Most people seem to go the peristaltic pump route which is prohibitively costly. Sure it works but it isn't available to most people. Here's my idea:

Large 60cc irrigation syringes for a small tank or large Large Farm Animal(500cc)irrigation syringes for large tanks and some kind of motor driven, gear based pushing device that would only be on for a fractional moment. Say, 1 second. This can be achieved using a timer circuit programmed to shut off after 1 seconds operation:

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Timer-Circuits-With-4060B.htm

I'm thinking a small toy car motor, some custom gears, step down transformer and regular plug in timer would do the trick.

Any electrical/mechanical engineers have any input?

EDIT(plans simplification): After some thought I realized that there would be a MUCH easier way to do autodosing. Using a small air pump such as that for an aquarium (smaller the better) on a timer for maybe 1-2 seconds a day! With this timer: http://www.amazon.com/Indoor-Electronic-Programmable-Plug-Wattage/dp/B001D9339W

Attached to a latex balloon to push the plunger! It's that simple!

All can be done for about 40 dollars... I haven't tested this yet so I guess I'll have to wait until I've 40 dollars to spend on a project that may or may not work.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Set up the timer and air pump to pump air into a sealed bottle. 
In the bottle is the fertilizer and a tube (air tube or smaller) that is at the bottom of the bottle, leading to the top of the aquarium. When the timer comes on it pushes air into the bottle. This forces liquid out through the tube. Works best if the bottle is pretty close to the top of the water level in the tank. A friend had this set up, and had an anti-siphon on the air tubing, just in case the discharge end got into the tank. I do not know what he used as a bracket, but it seemed the tubing was safely attached at the top of his tanks. 
1 air pump served 2 bottles, one was macros the other micros. He had the dry ferts measured so the same volume of water was used for each daily dose. 

I would be concerned that the balloon would go flat pretty fast, and the material get limp so it would not re-inflate in the same location. The flabby material would not push on the plunger. 
Some of the animal injection plungers are really stiff, too. I use them (without the needle) to measure small volumes such as dechlor and fertilizer. Some I just throw away they are so hard to work, even with a drop of vegetable oil as a lubricant.


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## Jeffww (May 25, 2010)

Interesting thoughts. I think an experiment is in order. In lieau of baloons, how about rubber condoms. They hold their form pretty well and are pretty strong. A checkvalve can prevent back flow. I think placing the "balloon" inside clear plastic tubing intended for the uplift in an UGF may help it retain it's form. 

Thea air displacement auto-doser sounds like a very simple and yet effective idea. I May try it out.


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## brohawk (Apr 7, 2008)

I believe the air displacement idea has been tried for quite some time, but is flawed by the fact that air compresses much more than liquid. Subsequent doses become less and less as the bottle empties and the air column gets greater. The air pump would need to be left on for gradually longer periods in order to build up the same air pressure/equal dosage each time.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Here is a drawing that I saw a long time ago. I have added text to it to explain how it is supposed to work. I think this gets around the problem of the dose changing as the container is depleted. If anyone recognizes the drawing, please let me know so I can give them credit.


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

This was my concept of a pressure side dosing setup. The idea is to use the regulated CO2 pressure to constantly pre-charge the dosing reservoirs and use a standard household timer to open solenoid valves for the minimum time of ~15 min. to release the ferts. The needle valves would be used to meter the flow for the proper 10ml dose in 15 minutes time. During the calibration several trials into a 20ml - 50ml syringe would be used to get the dosing volume correct and repeatable.










Here's the valve I found on Ebay for $15.










Pat


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## joshvito (Apr 6, 2009)

Have you thought about these pumps?
http://www.tomaquarium.com/prod_details.php?cat=29&p=58

They are usually really cheap, ~$15.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp48948/si1380205/cl1/tom_aqualifter_pump?&query=tom&queryType=0&hits=12&offset=


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

I don't want to be argumentative but, wouldn't diaphram wear cause variance in the feed rate over time and therefore require more frequent attention?

Pat


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

interesting...i have an engineering background

BS in Mechanical Engineering and working on my BS in Environmental Engineering

Ill take a crack at a concept design...I already "think" I have a working prototype in mind

..ill get back to you all


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

****Update****

so...couldnt sleep...got tired of watching latenight tv and got out some pencil and paper and started designing a system...then got out some extra supplies to try some theory out...and I must say, Im pretty confident now after some minor preliminary work and investigation

Ill update with 1 more final post after creating some diagrams in paint and what not and going into some more detail

Im sure it can be fine tuned but like I said earlier...PROTOTYPE


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

The thought behind this project is to provide a "poor man's" auto dosing system. The goal is to provide a composite auto dose system that is effective in fertilizing a tank. I'm assuming that since you're looking into auto dosing, your tank is most likely at the "high tech" end of the planted tank spectrum. With that assumption, I'm assuming that you are already using pressurized CO2 and more than likely a canister type filter. So without further ado, I present you a prototype of an auto dose system that won't break the bank. However, I believe that with some minor tweaking (namely changing the concentrations of the fertilizer used) this design can be effective across the whole gamut of planted tanks.










Parts list.

1. CO2 tank
2. Solenoid
3. Timer
4. Bubble counter (for calculating CO2 use)
5. Check valve (3 total)
6. Fertilizer reservoir
7. Bubble counter (used in reverse) one like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/Aquarium-CO2-Bu...-Atomizer-/320578936568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

8. External CO2 reactor
9. Canister filter
10. Fish Tank w/ plants
11. T-valve

The design is pretty simple. And I would think that it is pretty self explanatory, but just in case&#8230;I'll go into detail.

The trick is in the fertilizer reservoir. Its gravity fed! (I tried it with a check valve connected to a 2L soda bottle w/ tubing. Flipped it upside down and punched a hole in the top [bottom of the bottle]. The water flowed out gently and completely. So, you could dissolve ferts in water and place them in a 2L or larger. I just used the standard trick of drill small hole and pull the tubing through with pliers.) The ferts would drain slowly into the 2nd bubble counter and fill it up entirely (the area between 5,6, and 7). This would only be possible when the CO2 is turned off at night via the solenoid. The head the water/fert mix exerts on the check valve the correct way would be less than the pressure exerted by the CO2 when it is turned on during the day. The reservoir also wouldn't drain entirely because of the pressure of the water in the CO2 reactor provided by the canister filter. So let's look at a typical day. CO2 turns on and flows through the first and third check valves while closing the second (also stopping the addition of ferts). The CO2 flows through the second bubble counter unobstructed and the CO2 dissolves in the external reactor. The timer turns off the solenoid and the pressure gradually decreases as the remaining CO2 is dissolved. As the pressure decreases, fertilizers are gravity fed from the large reservoir and slowly fill the smaller reservoir created by the bubble counter. The first check valve prevents ferts from back-flowing into the CO2 tank. The third keeps them from flowing into the tank. The next morning, the solenoid switches on and the CO2 is reintroduced into the system. The additional pressure immediately closes the second check valve, preventing contamination of fertilizer. The CO2 also forces the fertilizer stored overnight in the smaller reservoir (the area of 5,6, and 7) out of the second bubble counter and into the external reactor where it is thoroughly dissolved. The CO2 soon follows and is dissolved as well. The plants have everything needed in the water and the lights come on to make them grow. As far as concentrations of ferts and what not&#8230;I COULD help you (I know quite a bit about chemistry needed (Environmental engineering background stuff)&#8230;but I won't. Like I said before, I just buy quality commercial substrates and don't dose my tanks. Jus like the challenge. Someone try this and tell me how it goes!


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Killa,

Nice use of existing resources. One issue to resolve. Most folks that dose ferts, dose macros (NPK) and traces (which include iron) seperatly to prevent the phosphates and the iron from reacting which causes the iron to precipitate out in an unusable non soluable form.

*Friendly Challange:*

Modify the design to dose macros and traces seperatly by either time or distance to insure the ferts are in complete solution at tank concentrations prior to them combining in the tank. Be aware that with two serarate paths you run into 'path of least resistance' issues similar to trying to run two seperate 'in tank' CO2 diffusers from a single source.

I like the idea and think it might be worth a try if that issue is resolved.

Good Luck (and I mean that),
Pat


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

well...the plan was to stay cheap...but Im sure it can be done for $50 more or less...like i said...like the challenge so lemme think/look up some things on the interwebs


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

If you can come in for that ($50), for both, it would be about half of the estimate for my idea.

Pat


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

i meant $50 more...

ill make a (predictive) money chart I guess

and once again...I "think" I may have figured it out

Ill have something back again later this afternoon...gotta sketch it out on paper first


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## brohawk (Apr 7, 2008)

2 cheap water/gas solenoids that are gravity-feed capable + 2 timers, a 2nd fertilizer reservoir and T line would do it. Should be able to find for under $50 online. 1 solenoid per bottle, which would replace the 2nd check valves. You'd just have to stagger the timers to open 1 solenoid for 15 mins or however long it takes to fill up the reverse bubble counter after lights out/CO2's off. Then you'd need to run your CO2 some time after that for 15 mins or so, say, in the a.m. Once the CO2 has flushed the line and turns off, open the 2nd solenoid to fill the bubble counter again.

Something like these would probably do it, though you'd have to work out the power plugs too.


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## brohawk (Apr 7, 2008)

Thinking out loud here folks, another much cheaper option: with 2 fert reservoirs, 2 reverse bubble counters, extra T lines & check valves, you could avoid mixing by having much longer tubing between 1 reverse bubble counter and the CO2 reactor, so much so that the volume of the line exceeds the volume of the other fert's bubble counter. Pressure issue from the CO2 or the reactor or both though?


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

brohawk said:


> Something like these would probably do it, though you'd have to work out the power plugs too.


Same one I spec'ed in post #6. ... Should work.

Pat


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

One more gotcha ... What if you wanted to change the dose? With the fixed volume dosing the only way to change the dose is to change the stock solution or start with a stock solution that would yield a higher dose than desired and then place something in the 'reverse bubble counter' to displace some of the volume to gain the desired dose.

Either would be something of a pain IMO.

Pat


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## trag (Jan 9, 2008)

pat w said:


> Same one I spec'ed in post #6. ... Should work.
> 
> Pat


You might also consider something like this:
Two Solenoid Valves for Water/Ice Dispenser

That gives you two valves at a lower overall unit price. The hot/cold solenoid assembly from a washing machine might be another thing to look at. Darn, I knew I should have stripped that thing off of my old washer. Just didn't have any use for it at the time....


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## Jeffww (May 25, 2010)

I could probably wire a 2pin connector on that solenoid and attach it to a psu to drive it. Interesting...I really just want one auto doser to dose NPK for me. Micros is manageable at every 3 days.


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Sorry Jeff,

We kinda ran away with the thread, didn't we?

For around the $40 price, you originally had, you could easily go for most any of the ideas so far. For simplicity, assuming you have presurized CO2, Killa's plan seems like the best to me for a single dosing system. It provides a consistant dose, is not dependant on the variances of expanding volumes of gas and is based on sound enginering. My offering will, for a few dollars more, add flexability in dosing and modular expandability should you opt for dosing traces in the future. Diana's should work just fine as the dosing doesn't really have to be "that" precise. After all one of the goals is to maintain non-limiting levels of nutrients with excesses easily managed with regular water changes. A little more or less shouldn't be cause for alarm.

I hope you'll take our little hyjack as a genuine attempt to address your intrest. Albiet one that swerved a little off course.

Should we continue on a new thread or should we proceed here? From where I sit, since it's your thread, it's your call?

Respectfully,
Pat


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't see why we can't continue here...originally he was looking for a cost effective way to auto dose. Granted we have gone a little past the scope of what he originally wanted...but sound advice is sound. He started a terrific discussion and (I feel) his question has been thoroughly answered, so no complaints there. However, if he wishes we continue elsewhere that is his prerogative and we will respect that.

...continuing on (for now)

With regards to the suggestions behind mine...I respectfully disagree with the use of a solenoid in place of check valves. Essentially, we have no idea how a solenoid would react to having a liquid (non-water) passing through it {not to mention the added hassle involved with wiring something up-K.I.S.S. gentlemen}. The formation of crystals or deposits over time may or may not damage the shut off mechanisms in a solenoid. Check valves are designed to be used for fluids. And are priced to be tossed and replaced if ever necessary. For the money, I just wouldn't _*risk*_ burning up a $50+ dollar component when I can accomplish the same thing for $2 (that gives me 25x to get it right!).

Pat, as for your challenge, I have a new design that allows the dosing of macro and micro separately.










Parts List

Again assuming you have the CO2 tank + regulator w/ solenoid & bubble counter and a canister type filter

1. CO2 Tank -$NA
2. Solenoid (2 total, one additional needed) -$50
http://www.marinedepot.com/Replacem...Replacement_Parts-CO2-CO3171-FICORERP-vi.html
3. Timer (2) -$10
4. Bubble counter -$NA
5. T-valve (4 total) -$8
6. Fertilizer Reservoirs -$NA
7. Check valves (7 total) -$14
8. Bubble Counters (2 total) -$10
9. External Reactor -$20 to make
10. Canister filter -$NA
11. Fish Tank
additional costs: airline tubing $8

Cost: $110

The principles stay the same with this design as the first. The CO2 feeds the ferts into the reactor to be dissolved and applied to the tank. The smaller reservoirs [trickle] fill overnight. The only main difference is in the use of the timers. For sake of discussion lets name them Timer 1 (left-most) and Timer 2 (right-most) and let the smaller [green and gray] reservoirs NPK and Trace respectively.

Creating a quick table would be the simplest way to discuss the way the system works. (doesnt work well on a forum)

Table 1: Ferts applied with use of solenoids

______On_______________Off______

1|..........NPK.........................--..........
|
2|.......Trace.....................NPK........
...........NPK + Trace..............--............

The main way to create this staggered effect is the use the timers. Again, let's go through a practice run. First thing in the morning, after the small reservoirs have been filled overnight. Solenoid 1 clicks on. CO2 is introduced and the pressure builds. The NPK is forced out of the first chamber and the check valve from the NPK reservoir is shut off. After some time (say 4 hrs later [10hr light cycle]) solenoid 2 clicks on. The pressure equalizes and slowly builds. Again with pressure on the check valve to the NPK reservoir, no new fertilizer is introduced. As the pressure gradually rises, the Trace in the second chamber is forced out and introduced to the tank. After 5 hrs Solenoid 2 then clicks off, an hr later solenoid 1 clicks off. The small chambers slowly recharge overnight as the pressure falls. With this method there are 2 viable options of control.

1. Control the amounts introduced by controlling the concentrations of ferts used

2. Control the amounts introduced by changing the quality of timers (namely used for solenoid 2).

If you use 2 basic timers, option #1 would be best for you. If you choose to use a basic timer for the first solenoid and a "better" timer for the 2nd, you can use "standard" concentrations for ferts and just set the 2nd timer to come on say 5hrs every second or third day.


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

You've met my conditions and the price is reasonable. The only reservations I have are:
1.The NPK path once clear may present a path of lesser resistance to the CO2 flow and as such may prevent the dosing of traces. Not sure though, would be happy to be proven wrong.
2.The increased number of components offer more things to fail. Even though the components are relatively simple. 

Still a design well worth considering.

Just for fair comparison a cost breakdown on my design:

2 – solenoid valves @ 14.99 ea. Delivered …..... $29.98
2 – needle valves Fabco NV-55 form the Rex Grigg site $23 ea. with shipping ~ $50 -$55
6 – Air/CO2 blocking valves ~ $10 shipped
Pack of barb style air fittings ~ $6.99 LFS
1 – timer $5 Only one should be needed since I'd be dosing both at the same time just on opposite ends of the tank, drops at a time. 
Tubing - $8

Total ~ $115

I would add the facility to 'Switch in' a reservoir of distilled water to flush the valves periodically to address your concern for the issue of build up. But I'd have what I needed form the list above. If I wanted to retain the most of my stock solution, during the flush, I'd need to use valves in the fluid lines which would cost more. Also I would have some CO2 waste when I break the seal on the reservoirs to refill.

So it seems that cost wise you have the advantage.

I kind of wish I had 2 tanks and the time and money to try both and see how they shake out.

Pat


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

pat w said:


> You've met my conditions and the price is reasonable. The only reservations I have are:
> * 1.The NPK path once clear may present a path of lesser resistance to the CO2 flow and as such may prevent the dosing of traces. Not sure though, would be happy to be proven wrong.*
> 2.The increased number of components offer more things to fail. Even though the components are relatively simple.
> 
> ...



damn...completely missed that point! You've got me there...however, I would think that the pressure (head) needed to move a liquid *an inch vertically is almost negligible*...especially compared to the pressure exerted by the water moving in the reactor. The fix would be in setting the operating pressure higher in the regulator. The equalizing of the pressure once the second solenoid is opened would mean a higher pressure in the first chamber but a slightly lower one in the second (think current flowing through two resistors in a series circuit - same voltage experienced but different current). Both high enough to move the liquid w/ the amount of CO2 will be controlled by a needle valve connected to the CO2 tank. And even that may not be necessary...thinking of the design of an irrigation system...at every joint in a manifold, the pressure HAS to be the same. So the same could be applied here "in theory" the loops would have to be at the same pressure when they come to the final T before being introduced to the reactor. If one side is higher or lower than the other, the system will work to even out the imbalance, ie increasing pressure in the system until P1=P2

as for components failing...the only components to fail in either system would be the solenoids...everything else acts as passive resistors

as an aside...moisture traps on your design as an added fail-safe

http://www.****blick.com/products/moisture-trap/

...and youre ABSOLUTELY right...I suddenly want to get another tank and test this theory out!!


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## Andy Ritter (Nov 26, 2008)

killacross said:


> think current flowing through two resistors in a series circuit - same voltage experienced but different current


I hate to interrupt your train of thought on your little project here, but that statement is wrong. Current in a series circuit is the same throughout the circuit, irregardless of the number of resistors or of the amount of resistance each one has. The amount of current will of course vary depending on the total resistance, but you will always measure the exact same amount no matter where you measure in the circuit. However, the voltage drop throughout the circuit can be different, depending on the amount of resistance each resistor has. If there are two resistors of equal value, the voltage drop will be equal across each of them. Whereas if the resistors are of different values, the voltage drop will be greater across the one with the highest resistance.

Maybe you meant to use a parallel circuit as an analogy, in which case each branch of the circuit would have the same voltage drop, but could have differing amounts of current depending on the resistance of each branch.

Honestly, I haven't really been paying that much attention to the designs that you guys have been discussing, so I'm not going to comment on whether I think if it will work or not. I just wanted to make sure that no one would read your statement and think that electricity works that way.

I will say that I find it interesting that you are working on a "Budget Auto Doser", but are already talking about spending more than $100 for parts, plus a lot of your time (which as far as I'm concerned has a dollar amount on it as well, since you could be making money with that time instead of messing with the project). Personally, I don't really understand why you want to go to this much trouble. I've been using a medical infusion pump for over a year now, and all I had to do was buy it, hook it up, and walk away. Plus it is extremely easy to tweak the amount dosed anytime that I decide I need to. On top of all of that, I spent less than $100 for everything needed.

However, I understand that often times the challenge of trying to figure something out can be fun, so don't let me bust your bubble.

Andy


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

you are right Andy...I was thinking equivalent resistors and I did mean parallel circuits (which the two chambers would resemble - same start & end points)...not sure why the error but thanks for catching that one

...I do find it hard to believe that you would read through a comment and pull out such a small, detailed error but not bother looking at anything else...but to each his own I guess


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Andy,

I didn't think these devices could be that economical but a quick search found this on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IMED-GEMINI-PC1-VOLUMETIC-INFUSION-PUMP-/150478859393?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23093d2c81

A very nice off the shelf solution ... but where's the fun in that?

Really, I think if I were to ever actually opt for auto dosing I'd have to look in to one, it just makes sense. How do you handle the reservoir and how much can your system hold in terms of days of dosing before a refill?

Pat


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

lol Pat, 

quite honestly...Andy just owned our face!


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

I just couldn't help myself.

Follow the link below to my birthday present from my loving wife.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IMED-GEMINI-PC-2...item255c989281

$50 shipped
0.1 ml/hr minimum feed rate
battery backup (5 hr. on single charge)
optional secondary dosing for topping off after a water change

Pat

P.S. Thanks Andy for the heads up on the solution.


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## Andy Ritter (Nov 26, 2008)

killacross said:


> quite honestly...Andy just owned our face!


Well, I'm not exactly sure what that means, but if it is bad, I certainly didn't mean to. I was just trying to point out something that I thought might help you.



pat w said:


> Andy, I didn't think these devices could be that economical...


That's exactly my point, and the whole reason that I even posted all of that information on the other thread to begin with. I see so many people spend so much time and money on much more expensive automated dosers that in many cases don't work nearly as well as these do. However, I have been surprised at how few people have actually taken advantage of these opportunities.



pat w said:


> How do you handle the reservoir and how much can your system hold in terms of days of dosing before a refill?


You might have already checked out the thread that I linked to before, but just in case you didn't, I use two 500 ml graduated cylinders in order to keep up with the accuracy of the pumps. I have been using PPS pro on my 75 gallon tank, but have modified the recipes considerably for my particular tank (you can check out the thread explaining that here if you are interested). I dose the macros at .6 ml per hour, for a total of 14.4 ml per day. I started out with them mixed at 1/2 the strength that the recipe calls for in order to prevent precipitates and also to make it easier to tweak the dosing, but I've changed the recipe so much now that I don't know what you would call it as far as comparing it to the original PPS pro. I have been filling that cylinder up to the 500 ml mark, which will last just over a month. I dose the micros at .2 ml per hour for a total of 4.8 ml per day. They are only mixed at 1/4 the strength that PPS pro calls for. Most recently I filled that cylinder up to the 250 ml mark, which is good for over 50 days. I like to use the graduated cylinders in order to keep tabs on how accurate the pumps are doing, but it definitely isn't necessary. You can easily change the concentrations and rate of infusion to whatever you think that your particular tank will need.



pat w said:


> I just couldn't help myself.
> 
> Follow the link below to my birthday present from my loving wife.
> 
> ...


Congratulations. Same pump that I have. I hope that it works out well for you. I know that personally I don't want to have to go back to measuring and pouring in ferts, so knock on wood, mine will keep on going for a long time to come. Glad I could help.

Andy


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Andy Ritter said:


> You might have already checked out the thread that I linked to before, but just in case you didn't, I use two 500 ml graduated cylinders in order to keep up with the accuracy of the pumps. I have been using PPS pro on my 75 gallon tank, but have modified the recipes considerably for my particular tank (you can check out the thread explaining that here if you are interested).


I skimmed through it. I'm going to mix my own based on my EI dosing schedule for now.



Andy Ritter said:


> Congratulations. Same pump that I have. I hope that it works out well for you. I know that personally I don't want to have to go back to measuring and pouring in ferts, so knock on wood, mine will keep on going for a long time to come. Glad I could help.
> 
> Andy


This is fortunate. I'm hoping you don't mind me picking your brain for setup and operational details, specifically for now, if I can feed the system with a 10 psi forced flow as opposed to gravity feed. You see the tank is in the living room and the entire setup must be kept out of sight if it is to pass SAF (Spousal Acceptance Factor).

Thanks in advance for your help,
Pat


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Andy,

Where did you locate the tube sets?

Pat


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Never mind, Andy. I found them.

Pat


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## brohawk (Apr 7, 2008)

While I do like these displacement pumps and will probably consider one in the future, re: the initial reason for this thread, $50 + the cost of tube sets isn't exactly budget-y either. I also think we ran off topic designing extra perks like dosage metering that also aren't inherent w/ the word "budget". You get what you pay for. Otherwise everyone would still be rocking yeast-based CO2 setups that miraculously worked on timers w/ adjustable bps.

I think solenoids and needle valves could be avoided, getting by on 5 check valves, 2 Ts, a few feet of tubing, and your recycle bin, i.e. about $15, as follows:

CO2 --> check valve --> T w/ NPK above draining down into reverse bubble counter --> check valve --> T w/ micros above draining down into 2nd reverse bubble counter --> check valve --> reactor. 4th & 5th check valves between the Ts and fert containers. As long as you have the outbound tubing in the bubble counters going all the way to the bottom of the bottles, you'd have minimal precipitate to deal w/, that would likely flush out w/ the next dosing. The tubing between the 1st reverse BC and the 2nd T would need to be long enough that the 2nd BC was fully drained before the NPK made it to it.

And to address Pat's request, at least somewhat: you can tie knots below each fert container, to adjust (well, reduce) the amounts that make it into the reverse BCs during lights out. Let me know if my reasoning is flawed guys. Again, just trying to readdress the initial posting, not knock Andy's more commercial, albeit more dependable, pump solution.


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## trag (Jan 9, 2008)

pat w said:


> Never mind, Andy. I found them.
> 
> Pat


Would you mind sharing where you found them?


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Sure thing. Here ya go.

http://www.meql.com//details.tpl?&c...100500&cart=1283102079139846&page=1&starting=

Only caveat is you have to catch them when they have a previously broken case. Otherwise case prices apply. They wanted a minimum $50 order but I managed to get their simpathy and reduced the order to 4 for $33.60 + $10 shipping. YMMV

Pat


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

brohawk said:


> Again, just trying to readdress the initial posting, not knock Andy's more commercial, albeit more dependable, pump solution.


I agree. We really hyjacked the thread. To address that I'll take the remainder of my inquiries reguarding the infusion pump solution Here.

Pat


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## trag (Jan 9, 2008)

pat w said:


> Sure thing. Here ya go.
> 
> http://www.meql.com//details.tpl?&c...100500&cart=1283102079139846&page=1&starting=
> 
> ...


Thank you. I just noticed there's also a group buy going on over on the buying and selling forum.


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Yup. I started it up but with a different supplier and a simpler tube set. No injection sites or other wasted stuff, 107".

Pat


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Sorry if this is a little "different" but I've been using IV feeding pumps for the last couple years to dose nutrients into reef tanks and now planted tanks as well... They are very precise, easy to program and have very little value once used. I have purchased several over the years on eBay for $10-30 a piece at most, even traded one for frags once. A box of 30 replacement bags and tubes runs about $20-30 on eBay and a bag lasts several months depending on what is being dosed. Kalkwasser for example tends to stiffen the tubing after a month or two...

The only setback is they dose constantly. My Kangaroo 324 pumps for example have a range of 1~300ml/hr meaning I need to calculate the dilution of the product so that it can be dosed constantly, this may be impossible in small tanks but quite doable in larger volumes of water. Currently I'm using these to dose Metricide and KNO3 solutions in a planted 180g.

Might be something to consider for some...

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## Singtoh (May 27, 2009)

Hello All,

This is my budget auto doser. These Panisonic mechanical timers I had laying around for awhile from when I first started the aquarium hobby, now I use digital for lights and CO2. Anyway this setup work flawlessly wiht no problems whatsoever. The daily dose is 8cc of each fert. The syringes will only pull and push 8cc a day, so I just mix my ferts accordingly. The idea is not mine, I found this on a another site (I think it was German) but they used a different timer. This was easier with these timers in my opinion. Anyway, just thought I would pass the photos along in case someone is interested. If you would like more photos or explanation, please let me know. I have tried all of the do-it-yourself auto dosing ideas and none of them worked. This one is spot on and hasn't failed and is very accurate.

Cheers,

Singtoh


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## CptanPanic (Oct 18, 2010)

Singtoh said:


> Hello All,
> 
> This is my budget auto doser. These Panisonic mechanical timers I had laying around for awhile from when I first started the aquarium hobby, now I use digital for lights and CO2. Anyway this setup work flawlessly wiht no problems whatsoever. The daily dose is 8cc of each fert. The syringes will only pull and push 8cc a day, so I just mix my ferts accordingly. The idea is not mine, I found this on a another site (I think it was German) but they used a different timer. This was easier with these timers in my opinion. Anyway, just thought I would pass the photos along in case someone is interested. If you would like more photos or explanation, please let me know. I have tried all of the do-it-yourself auto dosing ideas and none of them worked. This one is spot on and hasn't failed and is very accurate.
> 
> ...


Now that is what I call DIY. I love the simplicity. Can you explain how it works?


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## Singtoh (May 27, 2009)

CptanPanic said:


> Now that is what I call DIY. I love the simplicity. Can you explain how it works?


Hello CptanPanic,

Yes, I will try to explain a bit better. First of all you can see on the timer dial, the syringes are attached to that pink stud(plastic clothes hanger) which is two part epoxied to the timer dial. As you can see, on the syringe I tye wrapped and super glued another plastic bit(the end cap of a Uni-ball ink pen with the end cut off) to slide over the pink stud, this is so it rotates smoothly. The two red bits holding the pink stud are just the little timer on/off pegs stuck in there to help the epoxy hold better to the face of the timer. I also trimmed the pink stud on the bottom so it fits into the groove of the timer for epoxy to hold better. Also, there will be a mechanisim in the timer that grabs hold of a little tab on the bottom of these red pegs as it rotates that makes the timer open/close an appliance. These little tabs you have to cut so the timer just keeps rotating 24/7, in this case, suck ferts for 12hrs., blow ferts for 12hrs. Now on to the syringes. What I did was get a 20cc syringe and a 10cc syring(you could use 50cc and 20cc or similiar to get a larger dose). If you look at the pic's, you should see the 10cc syringe stuck inside the 20cc syringe. I used black electrical tape wound around the top and bottom of the 10cc syringes so they just fit inside the 20cc syringes to keep them aligned straight inside the 20cc syringes, so it doesn't have a chance to get on a bind(maybe not needed) then super glued the 10cc into the 20cc to keep it there as it sucks/blows. On the plastic face plate that I burned a hole in so the syringe can be attached to the timer dial, I attached the yellow PVC pipe with epoxy to the plastic face plate, and attached the bottom of the syringe to the PVC. As you can see in the picture if you look towards the bottom of the syringe, you will see a small bolt holding the 20cc to the PVC so it can rotate back and forth, kind of like a pivot point(bolt is snug but not to tight). Of course this bolt only goes thru the 20cc syringe. The 20 cc syringe has a hole burnt into the bottom of it to accomadate the tubing which attaches normally to the 10cc syringe. After that I ran the tubing. The blue things with the green "Y" splitter are the check valves. You will need 4 of those(for two fert flasks) that are reasonable quality. Tetra or those other similiar check valves won't work, I can't remember the exact problem I had with them(it's been awhile since I made these) but I do remember they didn't work. These ones I am using now have worked flawlessly for awhile now, quality check valves are a must. Anyway, you can see the green "Y" splitter. What you do is put one check valve to suck ferts from the flask, bottle ect. on one side of the "Y" and on the other side of the "Y" you put another check valve so it will allow the ferts to push thru to the tank thru the "top side" of the "Y". You can see how it works, on the "suck" cycle, the check valve on that side of the "Y" prevents tank water from sucking into your flask, and on the "blow" cycle the check valve on the "suck" side prevents ferts from going back into the flask from the syringe. I hope I explained this good enough. After it's all put together you just have to prime it. Take the plunger out of the syringe, take the tubing that would go into the flask and put it into a jar of water, fill the syringe rite to the top so a bit of water flows over and out of the syringe, then put the plunger back in and work the syringe in and out untill the tubing and the syringe doesn't have any air left in it. Then stick the tubing back into the fert flask, work it a couple of more times to fill the tubing with ferts and push the water out and at the same time set the timer to the correct time of day. Then slide the syringe plunger onto the pink stud and plug the timers in and your golden. I hope I explained this ok, but if you like I can take a better set of pic's as a piece by piece thing if it helps to clarify, just let me know. Now that I have made these, I guess I could make another in less than an hour, but initially, not knowing exactly how to whack it together, it took me maybe half a day for two of them. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Singtoh


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## CptanPanic (Oct 18, 2010)

Thanks, you explained it thoroughly, and I will just need to collect some parts to work through it. 
Cp


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Singtoh,

Nice execution. I've seen this type of setup somewhere before and was thinking it over when I found the IV pump for cheap and went that route. How long between stock solution refills? I'm guessing 3 weeks?

Pat


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Oops, Should have looked a little closer. You're only dosing 10ml max.

Ok, now I'm confused. Why one syringe inside the other?

Pat


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## Singtoh (May 27, 2009)

pat w said:


> Oops, Should have looked a little closer. You're only dosing 10ml max.
> 
> Ok, now I'm confused. Why one syringe inside the other?
> 
> Pat


Hello patw,

At 8cc/day I can go about 60 days between fert mixes, I have 500ml flasks. The reason I used 1 syringe inside the other is because it was the easiest for me to do it that way, it fit nicely and I had the 20cc syringes in my "I bought these for what box". It only serves as a kind of carrier for the 10cc syringe so it can pivot on that point where it is bolted to the PVC and keep the syringe from moving around alot. I guess there are many different ways to do it but I just thought this was easy. You lose 2cc in the way it's setup with the amount of travel of the plunger on the dial face, but thats ok, I just mix my ferts accordingly. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.

Cheers,

Singtoh


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## Singtoh (May 27, 2009)

Hello patw,

Ya, I would have went with the IV pump as well but I had these timers laying around, and it saved me from buying one here in Thailand or ordering one and buying more stuff. Those things are very expensive here.

Cheers,

Singtoh


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Singtoh said:


> Hello patw,
> 
> Ya, I would have went with the IV pump as well but I had these timers laying around, and it saved me from buying one here in Thailand or ordering one and buying more stuff. Those things are very expensive here.
> 
> ...


If I hadn't found a deal on eBay ($34.95 + shipping for a two channel) I wouldn't have been able to afford the one I have now.

On a side note - are you getting any use out of that stock solution spreadheet I posted over on Plantbrain's site?

Pat


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## Gibby (Aug 5, 2009)

Singtoh, that has to be the ultimate in KISS DIY auto-dosers.


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## Singtoh (May 27, 2009)

pat w said:


> If I hadn't found a deal on eBay ($34.95 + shipping for a two channel) I wouldn't have been able to afford the one I have now.
> 
> On a side note - are you getting any use out of that stock solution spreadheet I posted over on Plantbrain's site?
> 
> Pat


Hello Pat,

Yes, as a matter of fact that's the one I use now to make up my ferts. And I also use the MakeupSol spreadsheet as well. they both seem to work really nice. Thanks for those Pat, they are really easy to use and very useful.

Cheers,

Singtoh


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## Singtoh (May 27, 2009)

Gibby said:


> Singtoh, that has to be the ultimate in KISS DIY auto-dosers.


Hello Gibby,

I think so. Easy to do and it works really good and consistent and I had the stuff laying around in one of my "what am I gonna do with that" boxes. Glad you like it.

Cheers,

Singtoh


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