# Nick's 1st NPT (65g)



## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Hello all,

I am new here, and getting ready to embark on my first Walstad/NPT tank.

I have experience with community tanks, cichlids, and high tech reef aquaria, but this will be my first attempt at mixing flora with the fauna.

I stumbled upon Ms. Walstad's book last weekend and it really appealed to me. I like the idea of a balanced ecosystem that doesn't require the constant input I had grown accustomed to with my reefs.

I will be starting with a 65 gallon tank, 36"x18"x24". Due to its depth, it wouldn't be my first choice, but it is free to me. I figure I could keep the water level purposely a few inches low and leave some room for emergent plants if anything.

Either way, I am inheriting a 6x39W T5 fixture with the tank, which I understand I may have to leave a few lamps out of to hit the 1-2WpG range. Perhaps with the depth of the tank a little more light may be necessary? At least I will have the choice.

I am planning on no real filtration; maybe some mechanical if necessary. As I understand what I have read so far, I want to keep biological filtration to a minimum other than the plants and soil. Water movement will be by powerhead. No aeration is planned.

I'll have a few heaters of course, but that will be about it. For aquascape I would like just a little rock and/or wood, but I want the plants to shine here. I havent decided on any plants yet, still researching that heavily.

Fish stocking will be light to moderate, both for the ecosystem as well as the cost, which I am determined to keep low. I would like to try a single betta and some of their known suitable tank mates (neon tetras, harlequin raspbora, cory cats, etc)

I think that is it....the simplicity of the setup and eventually the maintenance has been the draw for me to give this a try.

I get the tank this saturday, and will need to clean it up (it was a reef), modify some plumbing, re-finish the stand, then get down to business with dirt and gravel.

I am chomping at the bit to get this going, and I'm sure I will be seeking advice along the way, so I am glad to be here! Thanks!

Nick


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A single T5HO bulb, with a good reflector, one that you can see a good reflection of the bulb on each side of the real bulb, should give you about the right amount of light for an El Natural tank. With just a fair reflector, 2 bulbs will work well. In my opinion the right amount of light is about 30-40 PAR, better at the low end than at the top end. If that light fixture has the bulbs spaced a couple of inches apart, you might do best with using the two outer bulbs, which would give you more even lighting.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

hoppycalif said:


> A single T5HO bulb, with a good reflector, one that you can see a good reflection of the bulb on each side of the real bulb, should give you about the right amount of light for an El Natural tank. With just a fair reflector, 2 bulbs will work well. In my opinion the right amount of light is about 30-40 PAR, better at the low end than at the top end. If that light fixture has the bulbs spaced a couple of inches apart, you might do best with using the two outer bulbs, which would give you more even lighting.


That's good to know, thank you. I figure it's nice to have the capacity for more light then come down as necessary.

So, where do most people get their plants from? Local, or online? I only have big box pet stores in my are so I am beholden to them for now. Do plants ship well?

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I have just discovered the availability of plant packs on aquabid....have people bought these with success? Price appears close to $1/plant, much better than big box stores.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Aquabid can be a good place to get plants, but I have had mixed results there. The last two times I used it I got very good plants once, and marginal plants the second time. It depends on who you buy from.

The For Sale forum here is a good place to get plants.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Yea agree with hoppy, for sale forum here is fantastic. Aquabid is like going to an online flee market. Sometimes you get good stuff, sometimes you get bad, and if you get bad there isn't much you can do about it.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Got the tank today, but the rain prevented me from working on it. It needs a ton of cleaning, and the stand needs a new finish.

While I was at the store I grabbed some cheap top soil and a bag of quikrete all purpose gravel. It is meant as aggregate for concrete, but said right on the bag that it is suitable for ponds and aquariums. I prefer gravel to sand and this stuff was much finer than the pea pebbles. I really want to avoid using expensive pet store gravel.

I did a quick vinegar test and to my surprise is reacted pretty strongly. My guess is that it is limestone. I initially thought I would take it back and opt for pool filter sand, but I figured I'd ask first: would using the gravel be advantageous to keep a supply of carbonates in my tank? I guess the side effect would be pushing the pH over 8. From what I understand the plants probably won't mind, but it could create problems for fish?

Any thoughts?

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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Limestone gravel is not a good idea for a planted tank, and probably equally bad for a fish only tank. You shouldn't want something in the tank that continually raises the hardness of the water, with no way to control it except water changes. It just over complicates things. Most plants like soft water better than hard water, but a few do appreciate hard water. One cheap form of "sand" is pool filter sand. That has to be pretty neutral, as far as affecting hardness is concerned, because swimming pools need to have the hardness under control. And, the particle size is just right for a planted tank. It doesn't come in any particular color, just whatever is available where you are. It is too heavy to be shipped very far, so it is usually manufactured close to where it is sold.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

if it fizzed, dont use it.
Use sand, tbh gravel wouldn't have worked well anyway no matter the size imo.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> if it fizzed, dont use it.
> Use sand, tbh gravel wouldn't have worked well anyway no matter the size imo.


I don't know, I've seen plenty of success walstad tanks using gravel. Still, if my gravel choices suck at the hardware store I'll probably go for 30 mesh pool filter sand.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

PFS is what I always use


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> PFS is what I always use


At least the price is right. Do you have any issues with the sand and soil mixing? How about when planting or pulling plants out, does the sand make a mess?

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Nope nope and nope!
Sand is so compact it doesn't really make a mess. Just be like slow with things dont yank the plant out obviously lol.

Like i said ive always used sand, fish love it, plants love it. No other way for me to go!


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Thanks for the advice!

Thanks to daylight savings, I got a chance to paint the stand and scrape all the coraline off the tank. It had an acrylic overflow box that I removed and will plug the holes with threaded plugs in the bulkheads. While I would love to hide heaters and maybe do an auto topoff, I don't want the sound of running water in my living room.

Will get the substrate in place this week. Do I need to wait on the substrate until I have the plants ready to go?









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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

i wouldn't think so?


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

So I jumped on a plant pack from aquabid. 40 plants for just under $40. Seller had very positive reviews and has been very responsive so far.

If I can make it back to hardware store this afternoon for the pool sand i may even have the tank filled or partially filled tonight!

Do you rinse your PFS?

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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, I always rinse pool filter sand. It isn't dirty, but there is enough dust in it to justify the effort of rinsing it. I like to spread out the job of starting a new tank. So, I spend a lot of time cleaning the tank very well, and rinsing it a few times. Next day I start rinsing substrate, and getting it into the tank. When I have plants to start planting I put enough water in the tank to get about 2 inches or so of water above the substrate, then set out all of the plants. That is much easier than doing so with a full tank of water. Same day, I finish filling the tank, by laying a sheet of plastic film over the planted substrate and sitting a dinner plate on top, then running the water slowly onto the plate to avoid it pushing the substrate around in the tank. When it is about half full, I remove the plate and plastic. I have a piece of PVC pipe on my water hose outlet, with a "tee" fitting on the bottom of it, with a few 1/4" holes in it, to act as a diffuser so the incoming water doesn't hit the substrate enough to disturb it. I use this every time I do a big water change. The tee fitting sits about halfway down into the tank, and I leave it on the hose and use that as a siphon hose when I'm removing water for a water change. If I want to remove more than 50% of the water I put an extension on the PVC pipe to drop the tee down to near the substrate.


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## r3464n (Feb 12, 2018)

Wish you all goodluck! Started my 75g aswell couple of days ago NPT!


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Soil, pool filter sand, and half of the water in. I didn't fill it since I am going to change most of it out anyway, and to make it easier to plant. I'm getting a large piece of mopani wood today, as well as new t5 lamps, the ones I have are more in the reef spectrum. Plants arrive Friday.

When I filled it last night I went supper slow and the water was very clear. This morning it was pretty milky. I assume that is the soil settling in? I'm going to do some water changes and probably run a mechanical filter for a little while once it is filled, but how long does the turbid period generally last?

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Turbid period?
Tannin period? usually about 2-3 months doing 50% WC (ei dosing WC method) every week. 
Doesn't harm anything though.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

As I understand it, tannins would tint the water, but not reduce clarity? It is definitely milky. I know I'm in for a few months of soil chaos, I'm just trying to see what to expect. I'm going to do a water change when I plant on Friday.

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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> As I understand it, tannins would tint the water, but not reduce clarity? It is definitely milky. I know I'm in for a few months of soil chaos, I'm just trying to see what to expect. I'm going to do a water change when I plant on Friday.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


It won't take months. Unless something is wrong/not optimal.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

zolteeC said:


> It won't take months. Unless something is wrong/not optimal.


Depends on how thick your soil layer is, in my fluval it took months (1 1/2 months approx.) because the soil layer was 4" thick with a 2" cap. Everything turned out fine no problems.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> As I understand it, tannins would tint the water, but not reduce clarity? It is definitely milky. I know I'm in for a few months of soil chaos, I'm just trying to see what to expect. I'm going to do a water change when I plant on Friday.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Tannins do tint the water yes, if they are thick enough they can in fact reduce clarity (look up pics of the amazon river, or lakes). The milky color your describing sounds like your sand, did you pre wash it? either way it doesn't matter and wont effect anything, give it a while to clear up.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Thanks for the replies! My soil layer is 1-1.5 inches, as is the PFS cap.

I did wash the PFS before adding, though maybe not thoroughly enough.

My wife just sent me this picture....it is now at a weak coffee color, so I assume it is tannins and such from the soil.

I guess all there is to do is wait till Friday.









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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Yea it looks fine!  i have never setup a dirted tank like you have though. I always have immediately planted it, etc. set it up like a normal scape. Really dont have to use such precautions as your using, such as not installing the filter (which wouldn't help tannins anyway), and not filling the water up all the way.

Cant wait to see it planted though, looking forward to that!


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> Thanks for the replies! My soil layer is 1-1.5 inches, as is the PFS cap.
> 
> I did wash the PFS before adding, though maybe not thoroughly enough.
> 
> ...


Oops, this is really dirty! I have never had this problem before....
It definitely should not look like this.

Mysiak has some photos from the NPT he has recently set up. It should look like this:



http://imgur.com/GD6oY


(Day 1 and it was pretty clear)

By the way, is Pool Filter Sand optimal as a cap? Normally I use small gravel, this provides a little bit less "insulation" between soil and the water column.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> Yea it looks fine!  i have never setup a dirted tank like you have though. I always have immediately planted it, etc. set it up like a normal scape. Really dont have to use such precautions as your using, such as not installing the filter (which wouldn't help tannins anyway), and not filling the water up all the way.
> 
> Cant wait to see it planted though, looking forward to that!


Eh, not really a precaution so much as my lack of patience, lol. If the plants were here they would be in there and I'd have filled it all the way.

I filled it because I just wanted to spread the setup work out, plus I was excited.....but I didn't fill it all the way cause I knew I was going to change the water anyway, and so I won't be up to my armpit in water when I plant.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

zolteeC said:


> Oops, this is really dirty! I have never had this problem before....
> It definitely should not look like this.
> 
> Mysiak has some photos from the NPT he has recently set up. It should look like this:
> ...


PFS is one of the best caps you can have.
Gravel is more porous and is one of the lowest (effectivity) caps you can have. Of course they vary in size.

I agree when u say it shouldn't look like that, i just dirted my 40b (you can go check it out in journals) and it never looked that bad, reason i pressing with questions lol!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Can you show us a picture of the bag the "cheap topsoil" came in? I'm wondering just what is in that "soil". Bark is one thing that can really release a lot of tanins, or just brown "juice". And, bark is sometimes the major ingredient of "cheap topsoil".


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I don't have a photo, but it was "Timberline" brand from Home Depot down here in South Florida.

I'm thinking perhaps I'll do a water change and get the bulk out tonight before the plants arrive.

The cheap soil may have had a lot of bark
...I assume it will all seep out eventually.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> I don't have a photo, but it was "Timberline" brand from Home Depot down here in South Florida.
> 
> I'm thinking perhaps I'll do a water change and get the bulk out tonight before the plants arrive.
> 
> ...


There is no additional fertilizers in the brand you used, and people use it for arachnid tanks often. 
Using in a tank though is very risky, it does contain manure, which is most likely whats making your dirty water. Also contains a heavy amount of woodchips. which if you didn't sift out, will make it worse. Did you mineralize this soil?


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> There is no additional fertilizers in the brand you used, and people use it for arachnid tanks often.
> Using in a tank though is very risky, it does contain manure, which is most likely whats making your dirty water. Also contains a heavy amount of woodchips. which if you didn't sift out, will make it worse. Did you mineralize this soil?


No, I didn't mineralize. From what I read it wasn't really necessary with unfertilized soil.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> No, I didn't mineralize. From what I read it wasn't really necessary with unfertilized soil.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


You mineralize any soil, mostly organic soil which doesn't have additional fertilizers in it either. You mineralize it for multiple reasons but i recommend your read this article:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...new-info-nitrification-one-form-bacteria.html
specifically this part:

"Using topsoil or potting soil as a substrate is not a new idea. Aquarists have been using this method to grow healthy aquatic plants for decades. However, this method does seem to pose some problems, namely algae outbreaks resulting from light intensity that is too strong. This is especially true when you first set up your aquarium with this type of substrate. The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.

Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. Soil mineralization occurs from exposing bacteria, enzymes and other soil microbes to oxygen in a moist environment. The microbes break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available minerals. As an added bonus these new bio-available forms of nutrients are generally only available to plants and not to algae.

There are a few other components to the mineralized soil recipe. Clay provides a source of iron. The clay also serves to bind with the soil as a flocculating agent. When plants are uprooted or disturbed, the added clay will help the soil to settle back to the bottom of the tank. Adding Dolomite to the base of the substrate will provide plants with the necessary calcium and magnesium they need for healthy growth. The calcium and magnesium in the dolomite will also help to keep the soil from becoming too acidic. Lastly, add soluble potash for an initial potassium source.

It is still possible to use pressurized CO2 and high lighting with this method of fertilization. I have setup four tanks using this method and all of them have been high-tech setups using CO2 and high lighting. I rarely ever have to dose any supplements save for the occasional dose of potassium. Use caution when dosing and dose very little amounts at a time. "


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I guess mine will just have to mineralize in the tank. I drained most of the water tonight and did a full fill so I can run the filter. Looks better of course, but time will tell how much more leaches out. I think I'm going to run some carbon too.

Unfortunately I had bigger problems tonight than the water color. This tank was drilled for an overflow. I ditched the overflow to keep the noise down in my living room. I cleaned and reinstalled the bulkheads, then put a threaded pvc plug in them.

Of course they leaked. Both bulkheads leaked from the gasket. That was an easy fix....wrench, nut, torque, done.

However both still leaked. Turns out one pvc plug has a manufacturing defect resulting in a pin hole in the body. Nothing I can do about this without a drain and replace. It's a slow leak, so I put some plumbers putty on it, and hung a drip cup.

The other one leaked where the plug met the bulkhead body. I tightened the plug and it got worse. So I backed it off. I THINK it stopped. Hung a drip cup there too to be sure. Looks like the threads of one piece or the other deformed due to high torque.

This has not gone well so far....

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

soil wont mineralize submerged o-o
you will have heavy ammonia problems due to the manure, and other issues according to have a lot of wood in there.
carbon will help with the ammonia and tannins, but it will remove nutrients in the water column. meaning as long as you have carbon, plants wont have ready nutrients available to feed on through the leaves.

Hate to be a debby downer but I'm just informing you whats (probably.) going to happen, and ill help as much as i can along the way.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I don't know.....I did alot of research before coming to the decision not to mineralize. I saw plenty of people build successful systems without mineralizing their topsoil, and I don't see any mention of it in Ms. Walstad's book.

I dont doubt that I will have a turmoil period, and it wouldn't surprise me if better soil prep would have minimized the turmoil, but as long as I can still build a successful aquarium in the long run, I can be patient and work through the startup.

What bothers me more are my leaky fittings....

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I should also mention that as I changed almost all of the water last night, I noticed it was very clear, just yellow/brown. The more I research it the more I think it is just tannins from the soil. 

I probably should have screened and rinsed it more, but from what I understand it should dissipate over time with frequent water changes. As long as the plants do ok, this will by course of action.

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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> I should also mention that as I changed almost all of the water last night, I noticed it was very clear, just yellow/brown. The more I research it the more I think it is just tannins from the soil.
> 
> I probably should have screened and rinsed it more, but from what I understand it should dissipate over time with frequent water changes. As long as the plants do ok, this will by course of action.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Yes, I think the most important is the plants show signs of growth... I have never seen this huge amount of tannins with my NPT setups, that's why I was somewhat wondering. If it clearing up, slowly but steadily, then you may get back on track. If it stays this dark, then I guess thats a problem 

I also don't mineralize my soil. My belief is that some organic matter will release CO2 over time.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Mineralizing soil isn't the problem here. The ingredients in the soil you purchased and use its the main concern.
I have my fluval dirted that looks Impeccable and isn't mineralized soil. Matter of fact it uses a soil many dont recommend (i experimented) which was moisture control, turned out great. I did have to take a few more steps though.

*Patience is the key.*


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You can use activated carbon in the filter to remove the tannins,* it doesn't have any effect on the nutrients in the water.* Activated charcoal removes large molecules only, and that means organic molecules, not our inorganic fertilizer molecules. It is true that activated charcoal can be manufactured to remove smaller molecules, but the cheap stuff we use in filters isn't made to do that. The real "problem" with charcoal is its limited life. It is effective for only a few days, then you need to replace it or it doesn't remove much of the tannins. That can become expensive. But, still, it does no harm.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> You can use activated carbon in the filter to remove the tannins,* it doesn't have any effect on the nutrients in the water.* Activated charcoal removes large molecules only, and that means organic molecules, not our inorganic fertilizer molecules. It is true that activated charcoal can be manufactured to remove smaller molecules, but the cheap stuff we use in filters isn't made to do that. The real "problem" with charcoal is its limited life. It is effective for only a few days, then you need to replace it or it doesn't remove much of the tannins. That can become expensive. But, still, it does no harm.


Hoppy i must disagree, (yet i must say it seems to be a large controversial thing)
I have read multiple times (and experienced long ago) that activated charcoal does in fact remove beneficial nutrients from the water. 
Quated from yamato green http://www.yamatogreen.com/ActivatedCarbon.htm

"phosphorus, for one. Some brands of Granular Activated Carbon contain phosphates left over from the manufacturing process, and can add phosphates to the water column. This encourages unwanted algae growth. Normally, you would never want to add phosphates to your water because they tend to stimulate the growth of unsightly algae. If you notice algae growing in your aquarium and you are running Granular Activated Carbon in your filter, you might want to try removing the carbon to see if that doesn't solve the problem.
The biggest problem with Granular Activated Carbon is that it removes good things with the bad. Many of the valuable components of Yamato Green and other plant fertilizers are "large molecule" components, and will be removed by Granular Activated Carbon. This is NOT a desired result. If you are adding Yamato Green but not getting the plant growth you expected, check to make sure that you're not running GAC in your filter. Some filters include GAC inside the filter element, and they don't give you a choice about it. Such filters should not be used on a planted aquarium. If you are going to run a filter on a planted aquarium, the best choice is one where you have a choice of exactly which filter material you can put in the box or canister. Despite advertisements to the contrary, probably the best filter material for a planted aquarium is simply filter floss. It's cheap, it can be purchased in a sewing store as "pillow stuffing" for a few dollars for a large bag, and it's excellent for filtering out small particles from the water column. Best of all, filter floss does not remove any desired molecules, such as chelated iron. "

"So, *how does one control the accumulation of unwanted colors or aromas from the aquarium? *After all, any aquarium tends to build up a "yellow" color with time. The answer is regular water changes. If you are not doing regular partial water changes, you should start. Nature "changes the water" every few seconds in a river or stream. Fish and plants are evolved to do best in water that is changed regularly. No aquarium, whether with fish or without, can remain healthy without regular water changes. "

If you dose fertz its just counter productive with activated charcoal in the filtration system.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't mind disagreements. Of course I think I'm right, just as you think you are. Maybe one of our members is very knowledgable and will agree with me. Or........:crybaby:


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Well I'm not worried about running carbon and nutrients as I have no plants yet. 

Water is pretty dark again, but when I shine a light in it I can tell there's not much in the way of floating particulate....it's just so dark you really can't see through. When I drain it off and discard buckets full it looks perfectly clear.

I'm gonna run carbon tonight, then water change tomorrow when I plant. 

Thank you everyone for your help so far.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> I don't mind disagreements. Of course I think I'm right, just as you think you are. Maybe one of our members is very knowledgable and will agree with me. Or........:crybaby:


lol! there are a few topics such as this in this hobby that still go unsolved 4 sure. Some say yes some say no, if you know what i mean. But the most important thing hoppy is to do what works best for you


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Plants!

....and ~70% water change.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

looks better


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Indeed......but the question is if it will stay this way.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> Indeed......but the question is if it will stay this way.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


highly doubt it, but i cannot predict the future.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> Plants!
> 
> ....and ~70% water change.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Wow. Quite a difference to the previous picture. I take all back what I said .


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Actually, the tannins report is very good! Next morning and it doesn't look any more brown.

I seem to have an ongoing clarity issue. I hope it is not suspended clay...I wouldn't think I would have clay issues in cheap topsoil in South Florida, our soil is very sandy.

I'm running mechanical but I think I need a finer floss. With the light off it still has a brown tinge to it so it might just be more tannins reflecting white light. Perhaps a few more large water changes and things will clear up I hope.

I super happy with the water color though!









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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> Actually, the tannins report is very good! Next morning and it doesn't look any more brown.
> 
> I seem to have an ongoing clarity issue. I hope it is not suspended clay...I wouldn't think I would have clay issues in cheap topsoil in South Florida, our soil is very sandy.
> 
> ...


To me this haze looks like a typical bacteria bloom, but who knows. That is kind of normal in some cases. It may disappear after a little while. If it stays in the long run, maybe something can be done. Anyway, I guess it is important to keep reasonable O2 levels in the water column now, fresh submerged soil also may consume oxigen...

I'd look for fresh growth on the plants in the next weeks. Plants should grow.


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## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

I've used potting mix fortified with poultry litter, we know what that is!
Have never mineralized any potting mix and managed just fine.

See two issues here.

Wood chip sifting can be a huge win if you don't want tannin stained water.
Miracle Gro and Topsoil mixes I sift @ least twice, always find many small pebbles too.

Typical 1" soil and 1" or more sand cap. More if you may be moving plants.
The cap in the photos looks thin allowing easy movement from soil to water column.

Cap breaches will happen in the future at some point in time.
This makes sifting the original soil important so floating material is not released.
IMO a cap breach should not cloud one's tank and a quick surface vacuum of the area should restore things to normal.

Maybe adding some additional sand would improve the situation.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I've used potting mix fortified with poultry litter, we know what that is!
> Have never mineralized any potting mix and managed just fine.
> 
> See two issues here.
> ...


Thanks for the comments. Planting seems to not have had a negative affect on the water in terms of breaches. The cap is about an inch. It's thicker in the middle than it is by the glass. I do have more sand I could add though.

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## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

I pull plants all the time from a soil capped tank.
Just throwing out there how I have kept it somewhat "clean"

All in capped soil.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I pull plants all the time from a soil capped tank.
> Just throwing out there how I have kept it somewhat "clean"
> 
> All in capped soil.


Thats gorgeous!

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I've used potting mix fortified with poultry litter, we know what that is!
> Have never mineralized any potting mix and managed just fine.
> 
> See two issues here.
> ...


Hey Maryland long time no see!
I gotta +1 to Maryland guppy, he knows his high tech dirted tanks. 

(JUST SAYING, U GOT TO POST UR JOURNAL ON HERE IM DYIN TO SEE IT!)


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## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

DutchMuch said:


> Hey Maryland long time no see!
> I gotta +1 to Maryland guppy, he knows his high tech dirted tanks.


Thanks!

Soil is IMO the best substrate but there are disadvantages too.
Initially PO4 is very mobile, and ammonia can be an issue if not heavily planted. (1 month )
Surface scum can also factor in during early stages. ( 3 months skimming by solo cup every couple days)
Cap breaches and the light cap vacuuming removes soil over time.
Quite a bit if you uproot areas and are selling off extras.
I've been adding additional sand cap to the rear of tank lately.
Mermaid weed will pull a good sized hunk of soil and leave a divot in the substrate.
Hoping for an 18 month run on soil before I must replace due to loss and mineral exhaustion.

My tank is growing well but it is a mess. Too many plants and experiments taking place.
Spent so much time learning to grow so many different species that dutch look is not happening any time soon.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I'm not sure what the "Dutch" look is, but I like the lush jungle look to. If I can achieve your results I'd be very happy!

Any ideas on keeping Amazon frogbit corraled? I may try a strip of regular nylon patio screen, but I need some way to secure it....maybe I'll come up with some sort of bracket to 3d print.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Another large water change.









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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hello Nick,

Congratulations of starting an NPT! We want you to succeed.

I'm just going to make a quick comment based on your tank photos. I see a desert of open water--cloudy with bacteria and algae. Lots of light and not many plants. Too often, the focus is on equipment, soil, lighting, and not the plants. Water changes will help, but good overall plant growth is essential.

You need a certain level of plant biomass/gallons of water to keep algae/bacteria at bay. I would add more plants, especially floating ones to this setup. (See my chapter on the Aerial Advantage.) In the meantime, I would reduce the water level temporarily by 50%. Hopefully, you've got some stem plants that will respond quickly to the higher light levels and start coming above the water surface. If you can't add more plants, at least decrease the water volume. All that open water with high nutrients and light is a perfect culture medium for algae.

Bottom line: You need more plants and less open water.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Thank you for chiming in!

I suppose that is one problem with the big plant pack I bought: alot of variety but all small cuttings.....

I see what you are saying about the water volume. I feel like that is a problem with this size of tank....but she was free so I'm going to roll with it.

My only issue with lowering the water level is that I won't be able to run my hob filter which is my main source of flow. I have a few power heads, but I worry they will be too much, especially for the floaters. Any suggestions there?

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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

nstiesi said:


> My only issue with lowering the water level is that I won't be able to run my hob filter which is my main source of flow. I have a few power heads, but I worry they will be too much, especially for the floaters. Any suggestions there?


I would get some floating plants for cheap insurance against algae. This may be enough. Duckweed can be difficult to remove if you decide so. However, there are a lot of different species to choose from.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I do have some Amazon frogbit in there, not pictured, buy it's only 5 little heads.

I feel like the plants I have in the substrate will be a good amount once they grow in, but I will be looking to add more floaters this week for sure.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Also, I received and planted my plants on Friday, so it has been only about 3 days. However I'm seeing a ton of die off and dropped leaves. Is this normal of transplanted plants, small cuttings, and/or plants that were shipped cross country.

I know it has only been 3 days, but is this indicative of a bigger problem, or just transitional? Even the frogbit appears to be browning...

I also understand that there may be a transitional period if the plants were grown emersed and are now submersed?

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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

When you do water changes do you add a dechlorinator, like Seachem Prime? It looks to me like there is something in your water that is a problem. Do you add any kind of "aquarium salt" to the water? Do you use any soap or detergent when you clean the tank? What do you add to the water, what products, chemicals?


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

hoppycalif said:


> When you do water changes do you add a dechlorinator, like Seachem Prime? It looks to me like there is something in your water that is a problem. Do you add any kind of "aquarium salt" to the water? Do you use any soap or detergent when you clean the tank? What do you add to the water, what products, chemicals?


Just dechlorinator. No salts, no other additives. I used no chemicals when cleaning the tank. I'll be doing a full battery of water tests tonight.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Are there any common floating plants I can get at a garden center like Lowe's or home Depot? My local fish stores have nothing for floaters....


The frogbit that came with my aquabid pack are almost completely gone now and I'd like to replace them quickly.

The other plants seem to be "ok". All of the nomaphila have shed their leaves. The stems seem ok, but I haven't inspected them too closely. The swords seem like the leaves are getting thin and transparent, but still firmly attached. A few bacopa leaves are brown, but not many. Most everything else seems pale, but alive for now.

I hope it is still just transitional. It is only day 4. All of the crypts were super small and skinny....only one looks really distressed though (out of 5).

Unfortunately my test kit is still in the mail....can't check water until Thursday. I hadn't ordered it since I knew I could get it locally, then I saw the prices at the big box stores so I decided to amazon it.

Lastly, water is still milky, but not brown. Tannins have slowed considerably. I'm guessing the milky is still bacterial. I haven't lowered my water level yet, was waiting for next water change, and I want to keep running my filter.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Weird. Since this tank is dirted its weird. 
When you planted them you didn't plant them in Pots or anything did you? i know many people make that mistake. Milky water is just a bacterial bloom it will go away.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> Weird. Since this tank is dirted its weird.
> When you planted them you didn't plant them in Pots or anything did you? i know many people make that mistake. Milky water is just a bacterial bloom it will go away.


Nope, no pots. I'll get a better pic of the tank soon. Stem plants went right in down to the bottom using a hemostat. Java ferns attached to drift wood. Anubias and swords were tied to small bits of rock and buried such that the rhizome or crown is still exposed.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

sounds like your planting methods are up to par! pics would help tremendously


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nstiesi said:


> Also, I received and planted my plants on Friday, so it has been only about 3 days. However I'm seeing a ton of die off and dropped leaves. Is this normal of transplanted plants, small cuttings, and/or plants that were shipped cross country.


The plants may recover, but who knows what they went through during shipment. Frogbit is tough, but right now it is on life support. Abused plants that are dying and limping along will be of little help in taking up nutrients. In fact, they will leach nutrients and debris into the water making the setup worse, contributing to bacteria and algal blooms and soil meltdowns.

Having a large amount of healthy, adapted plants is critical to setting up an NPT. It is hard to remedy the situation 2-3 weeks later, because by then the soil is becoming more anaerobic and pouring nutrients into the water.

Ideally, you should have healthy and _adapted_ plants at the "get go." Rather than repeat myself and become tiresome, please see my posting today to r3464n for a similar message and the rest of the sermon.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Yeah, starting small probably would have been a good way to go. This tank was free to me so it's the little I've been dealt.

Do you (or anyone else) have experience growing creeping Jenny (lysimachia nummularia) as a floater?

I can get them in 1qt pots from local garden centers for $3. This might be a cheap quick way to add some plant biomass, even if I remove it later.

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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

never heard of jenny being used as a floater before... as aquaponics, yes sure but definetly never heard of em being TRUE floaters, for ponds or for tanks.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Full tank shot. After doing more reading I decided to try the Jenny. If the goal is nutrient uptake through higher biomass this was the fastest way for me, and there is at least some positive feedback on their performance in aquariums.

I got three plants for $1.50 (on clearance, yay!). Small pots for terrestrial plants, but large for aquatic. I rinsed all the dirt out of the roots. I planted one, and floated two more.

If nothing else, I'll learn what DOESNT work.









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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

The water seemed noticably clearer this morning. Not sure if it is wishful thinking, coincidental with the recessesion of bacterial bloom, or a driect result of the creeping Jenny.

It will be interesting to see how it looks tonight after work.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Status quo continues.

Bacterial bloom still on. Ammonia spiking to 2ppm. No no2 or no3 yet. pH 7.4. Have what appears to be diatoms(?) On the sand...one little brown patch.

The submerged Jenny is doing well. Bacopa are growing. One of my swords has some new growth. Most the the crypts have melted, but one has a new shoot. Looks like I have a new shoot of alternanthea emerging from the sand, so hopefully that means it is laying down roots. Anubias look pretty good, little browning but no new growth yet. Java ferns looking best of all so far. Frogbit didn't make it.

I also added some bio media to my filter to help the cycle along. I may or may not remove it later depending how things go. My filter is a bit undersized for the tank so it shouldn't be a big deal.

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for posting pictures. Yes, it will be a lesson for all of us! Good that you have added more plants and doing water changes.

In addition, I would trim off dead plant leaves and remove them from the tank. (I see a lot of dead leaves.) Use scissors or a knife to make a clean cut. Poke the substrate with a sharp object (pencil, unfolded paper clip, etc) every few days to keep it from going too anaerobic.

Creeping Jenny does best in colder water, temperatures up to 20C according to Christel Kasselmann, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysimachia_nummularia


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Yeah, I read that Egeria Densa liked lower temps too, so I dropped my set point to 75F. That said, the densa are all but dead. I snipped a few pieces that were still green and am floating them to see I can salvage anything.

I did a water change and a big trimming of dead leaves.....and there was plenty of it. I discovered that my ludwigia is also on life support. Of my six stems 2 are pretty much mush. One is being floated. The other 3 I was about to discard until I saw the tiniest of green buds on them. They will soldier on and hopefully come back.

Most of the rest have at lease SOME new growth to bank on. All of the tiny crypts have melted, but there is one with a new stalk forming.

I also planted some more Jenny, as it seems to like that more than floating. All in all, even with the difficulties, it looks 10x better after a nice trim.

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

That tightly-packed bunch of plants in the back right-hand corner... Those look like plants that are doing well. They could grow even more nicely if allowed a little more space. I would pull some of the stems out and spread them and replant them. (Turn off the filter first.)

Other than the stem plants, which you can't count on long-term, I don't see any fast-growers. For example, that Anubias won't do much for your tank; I had one for 10 years that might as well have been plastic. Crypts are good long-term, but not in the beginning; they grow slowly and tend to "melt" in new setups.

A couple Amazon Swordplants would be an excellent addition for this large tank. (They can be kept under control.) Other good growers are _Sagitarria subulata_ and _S. graminea_, _Vallisneria spiralis_. In a new tank setup, you need some good growing rooted plants to start digging into that soil you've added.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Thank you for the recommendations. I am looking to add plants this week.

The ones in the back are the creeping Jenny. There is another one behind the driftwood. I will consider breaking it up next water change.

There are three swords in there already, but it's hard to tell because two have lost all leaves.

Thanks!

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## terryna (Mar 16, 2018)

sub'd to this thread


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nstiesi said:


> There are three swords in there already, but it's hard to tell because two have lost all leaves.


I suspect that the swords were emergent grown and they now have to adapt to a submerged condition. Oh my, I forgot how hard it was starting out!


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> I suspect that the swords were emergent grown and they now have to adapt to a submerged condition. Oh my, I forgot how hard it was starting out!


The good news is that the swords seem to be sprouting back at a good pace. Each has new leaves.

I bought one more tonight from my local Petco which is really my only close source for adapted plants. I grabbed a few others as well, including a grass that may or may not be valisneria (they don't label most of their stuff)

Ammonia down to .25. nitrite way up, maybe off the scale at 5ppm plus. Nitrate 10-20ppm. Fishless cycle is coming along.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

The bad news is that I didn't recognize one of the plants I just bought as a mix of lucky bamboo (no stalk yet) and some sort of syngonium. From what I have read neither do well submersed long term. If/when they look unhappy I guess I'll take them out and pot them somewhere else in the house. I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle of a return for $6.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Pulled out the non-aquatic Petco plants and put them in a jar with some dirt.

Also finally took a ride to my only good lfs and got some good deals on more plants: wisteria, water Sprite, and rotala.

I'm still getting some recovery from what is left of the aquabid stuff, but it's slow going. Even the crypts which were so far gone that there was no green above the substrate have put out new leaves from quite literally nowhere.

Also, tank is still milky. Ammonia is gone. Nitrite is about 2ppm. Substrate is belching like crazy.









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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

It's been about 19 days running now and I'm feeling pretty good about the way things are going.

It seems as if I am past massive melts and plant die off. I see new growth on just about everything. All 3 of the swords from aquabid are putting out a few new leaves a week. I even have 4 crypts coming back, all of which melted to the point that there was no exposed green at one point.

The aquabid ludwigia died to the point that there was a single stem left, but it is now sprouting green buds. Same for the nomaphila. I might have saved 3 little stems of Egeria densa as well. While it all turned to brown mush, I cut off the last inch of green on a few, floated for a week, then put them shallow in the cap....to my shock it looks like they are sprouting too.

All of the newer additions seem well. Ammonia is gone, but nitrite is still very high. I'm just waiting out the cycle and hoping the water continues to clear. No bad tannin problems anymore, but the bacterial bloom remains. Since the tannins stopped I discontinued water changes during the cycle. As soon as it's done I will resume them.

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Glad to hear that your plants are coming back from the dead. Photo does show an improvement. You get an "A" for perseverance.  This reminds me of some Water Sprite bits and pieces someone gave me last summer that they were going to otherwise toss away. Just a 2" branch with no leaves started to sprout a new baby plant. Now I have plenty of Water Sprite.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Things are going ok. Growth seems steady but slow.....except the water Sprite, what a powerhouse that thing is.

Cycle is done. Did a big water change then added 8 serpae tetra, 6 Cory cats, and 1 betta. The serpaes are fine nippers, which I didn't read until after I bought. The betta now graduated to his very own bowl.

One thing I can't figure out is the water clarity. I can't seem to get much better than this. My filter is underpowered, and I was planning to add a second one for flow if nothing else, but I doubt that would be the issue.

Many have said it is a bacterial bloom, but with the cycle over I would have thought it would be clear by now.









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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tbh i cant notice in the pics that its cloudy


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

It's not bad, but it's more noticeable in person. 

In my reef tanks I was used to crystal clear water.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Hi all. The tank is doing ok. Most things are growing. I trimmed my water Sprite drastically, but it's been a super fast grower so I figure it will be back.

My big problem is the water is CONSTANTLY cloudy. It gets better after a water change, but by the next day it clouds up. Tonight is particularly bad, though the photos aren't doing it justice.

Any ideas?! I'm running two filters with polyfil pads and a bit of carbon.

Thanks!









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## FromReefs2Plants (Aug 14, 2017)

maybe too much light and too much filter action? I have a single beamswork 48" led on my 55g tank and a single aquaclear 50 filter. My water is quite clear, a tinge yellow, but not cloudy at all


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

It has actually gotten worse since I posted....as bad as it has ever been. The new development is that it looks a tinge green now; could this be a green water algea bloom?

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nstiesi said:


> I trimmed my water Sprite drastically, but it's been a super fast grower so I figure it will be back.


Here, you had a good grower in a new setup and you pruned it.

Not surprised that the pruning stimulated algae. Yes, it probably is GW (green water algae). You've taken away a major competitor for algae. GW is hard to get rid of. I've got a few tanks with that problem. Only thing that works is time and stimulating plant growth or using a UV sterilizer.

Please folks, prune lightly _after_ you have achieved the "jungle effect," such as in Mysiak's shrimp bowls, not beforehand. Every NPT is a balance between algae and plants. Don't sabotage your plants!


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

You know, I had a suspicion that the pruning was related.....sigh. I pruned so heavily because it was shading the plants below it, and the wisteria in particular wasn't doing so hot in the shade.

Live and learn. I should have replanted the trimming, but I didn't want the tank to be 100% water Sprite, lol.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I am in the midst of a bit of a crash. The water was getting nothing but more like pea soup, and I noticed that my creeping Jenny are melting rapidly. 

I did a sizeable water change today, maybe 60%. After the change was done I notoced many of serpae tetra at the top gasping. I quickly rigged an air pump and used some h2o2 to get some oxygen in the water. As I monitored things I then noticed a few Cory cats acting erratic, while the serpae we're unable to swim, flipping and floating....some sort of swim bladder issue? Not sure of it was result of oxygen issue, or something else? Did my o2 dump out due to the green water?

2 tetra are dead, 2 more don't look so hot. Remaining 3 seem ok and are eating. All 6 Cory's seem back to normal.

I whipped up a makeshift diatom filter using a media reactor loaded with a 10" ro sediment filter cartridge fed by a maxijet 1200. It's doing a good job of removing the rest of the green....this is as clear as the tank has been in weeks. Still don't know about the wildlife though. Sometimes I think reefs were easier! (But still more $$$).

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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

I'd suggest adding several pieces of fast growing floaters (pistia, frogbit,..), they will remove all excess nutrients and help to stabilize the tank until your trimmed plants recover.

H2O2 is mostly safe, but it must have something to react with (dissolved organics, algae etc.) - if the water is clear (as after a big water change), peroxide will react with fish gills and can damage/kill them. How much of H2O2 have you dosed to the tank? My usual dose is about 2ml for my 2.5g tank and 25ml in 47g tank (6% concentration). Both tanks have brown water from tannins, so H2O2 doesn't really have a chance to damage anything living.

For completely safe dosage of pure oxygen I'd suggest this gadget http://www.aquariumoxygenator.com/
No idea what difference exactly it does, but I have 3 small ones in my bigger tank..


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I did 60ml in 65 gallons, but I had 3% concentration.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

Bad news is that 2 more casualties were noted this morning...both serpae tetra. The Cory cats seem perfectly fine now. 3 tetras left out of the 7 I started with.

The good news is that this DE filter I hobbled together out of spare parts is AWESOME. I ran it overnight and my tank has not been this clear since I filled it on day one. 

I know this is only treating the symptom and not the cause, but it's a nice tool to have in the box. Right now it's just hanging out inside the tank, so I'm going to get some tube and fittings so I can make it a little more permanent, and ready for occasional use.

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## FromReefs2Plants (Aug 14, 2017)

I would also test the water if you think you're going through acrash. MIght as well see what the levels are


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I am glad to hear that your tank has stabilized.

A diatom filter is a very effective and harmless way to remove green water. Also, a UV sterilizer works beautifully. I have a few tanks with green water. I've added daphnia in a little cage setup to see if they can't take care of it.

I cannot imagine *ever* adding H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) to my tanks. This is not a "biologically friendly" compound. I suspect that this is what killed your fish.


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I didn't try the h2o2 until well after the fish fell I'll, swimming vertical and upside down. It might not have helped, or made it worse, but it wasn't the root cause. I'll probably never know, unfortunately.

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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> I cannot imagine *ever* adding H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) to my tanks. This is not a "biologically friendly" compound. I suspect that this is what killed your fish.


I have been adding H2O2 to my tanks for more than a year with no ill effects, mostly as a spot dosing on thread/hair/bba algae in moss. I do not really have an algae issue anymore, so I just add few mililiters here and there as a preventive measure and to clear up the water and oxygenate it a bit. Shrimps start to graze on "burned" fizzling surfaces treated with H2O2 instantly. I am not advocating usage of H2O2 as something "magical", but if done carefully, IMHO it's completely safe way how to kill stubborn algae and/or oxygenate the water. Generally "recommended" safe amount for a whole tank dosage is 4ml per gallon of 3% concentration for algae removal, but one should always start low and increase the dosage only if needed (and not right after a big water change).

The only time when it caused issue was when I put H2O2 in a small jar with fish (they were waiting to be transferred as a live food and I wanted to keep the water oxygenated). Combination of clean water and slight overdose of H2O2 resulted in death of almost all fish. I believe that the same dose in "dirty" water and tank with substrate and detritus would be completely harmless.

Just my 2 cents..


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

h202 doesn't kill fish unless you major overdose, not a very difficult process. i use it to.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nstiesi said:


> I didn't try the h2o2 until well after the fish fell I'll, swimming vertical and upside down. It might not have helped, or made it worse, but it wasn't the root cause. I'll probably never know, unfortunately.


Sorry. Didn't read your post that carefully. Since the problem occurred after a 60% water change, could the problem be chloramines?

Raleigh, NC uses chloramines to sterilize the municipal water supply. Fish keepers there report severe and *unpredictable* losses after a water change. Apparently, the chloramine levels in the water supply vary, such that one water change might be okay; the next one, deadly. Experienced fish keepers in the Raleigh area have gone to a great deal of trouble and expense to add commercial filtering systems (contain some kind of super-activated charcoal from coconut shells) to their fish rooms. (Because I have well water, I have not had to deal with this problem.)

I am not advocating that you install these expensive systems or forgoe water changes, just that you seriously consider chloramines as the culprit. It may save you from witnessing another mass fish death. Many, many municipal water treatment plants have switched OR are switching OR will switch to chloramines (instead of chlorine gas, which is much easier to deal with).


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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

At this point I think anything is possible. I use a tap water conditioner, I'll have to see if it neutralizes chloramines as well as chlorine.

If it were something inherent in the tap, perhaps I didn't get the water treated fast enough. I refill with a hose then treat the tank direct so I don't need holding tanks for water changes.

I've been doing it this way for some time and it's never been an issue, but like you said maybe the municipality changed the treatment program this time around.

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## nstiesi (Mar 6, 2018)

I haven't posted a photo since May 25th. I've fell into other hobbies for a while and kinda just let this thing go, and it's probably the best thing I could have done.

The water has cleared drastically, and I haven't had to use the diatom filter in almost 2 months. I figure I finally have the plant mass necessary to suck up enough nutrient.

All fish have been healthy since the little crash. I might replenish soon. The plants are doing well. The tank is mostly water Sprite, but at least it is lush and green!

All I have done is make up evaporated water and the occasional water change (and far fewer of those than I care to admit).

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Pretty tank. Lovely message: Let the plants do the work for you!


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