# HELP!! ragged fins... swimming/drifting near surface....??



## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

Hello all

So i have been lurking and have a fairly decent idea of whats going on with the aquarium...

20G

temp 80F
ph 6.5
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 0

tank has been established a while

4 bala sharks (young, i know theyll get large.)
6 glowlight tetras
1 pictus catfish


problem is, I just added CO2 injection (via a simple reactor and bubble ladder), and now my bala sharks are all just floating/drifting very lifelessly near the top (not gasping at the air though), with fins retracted, some of them have a reddish/blood dorsal fin now, and now their fins are starting to get ragged even...clearly they are NOT happy about something!!! i dont know if this is related in any way to my CO2, or pure coincidence


i know about the CO2 poisoning or what not, but they dont seem to be gasping per se, and there is very good oxygen input to the tank (or so i would think with the filter and air supply)

the pictus catfish has been sitting pretty lifelessly around the bottom of the tank, rarely leaving his hiding spot, not swimming, just laying around also.

the tetras seem fine.

any ideas??? help help!

thanks much.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

Either Co2 poisoning or the pictus cat is attacking him.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

My Pictus cats also hide all day and don't move too much durring the day.
They are a nocturnal species, so I wouldn't worry too much about him.
But I would watch to see if he is attacking the Bala sharks.

Is the Co2 pressurized or a DIY set up and approx how many bubbles per second are you getting on the ladder. If you can control it, you may want to turn it down a bit, or get a drop checker to make sure you are not adding too much.

If you have a DIY set up, you can get some inline ball valves or some kind of low pressure regulator to turn that down if for some reason your DIY is putting out that much Co2

something like this might help

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=8017&N=2004+113403


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

a) the pictus does not bother the balas, nor the tetras for that matter.

b) the co2 setup is essentially a storebought DIY with a yeast reactor. currently i am getting about 1 bubble per 3 seconds, and each bubble takes over a minute to reach the top of the bubble ladder, reducing in size about 3fold before reaching the top.

thanks for the replies!


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

to control the CO2, the option on the bubble ladder is to move the input point higher (less time from bubble to surface) or lower (longer time from bubble to surface)


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I don't think there is anything wrong with yout P. Cat or Tetras.
I don't think you are adding too much C02

You might need to quarentine your bala sharks and possibly treat them with a medication.
something for Fin Rot, Gill Flukes, Ich, etc. You will have to make a guess by observing them, which is most likely and either medicate or try to rid the parasite or virus with high temp water.


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## david lim (Mar 30, 2004)

Very easy to figure this out. Unplug the CO2 and see how your fish act. If they get better then CO2, if not then pictus cat. I am going to assume that the CO2 is causing the problem, because, if it were the cat, the tetras might be stressed too. Also don't Bala Sharks need lots of low CO2/ high O2 water? Do you have a good amount of current through upper area of your tank?

If it's disease, then I don't know.. hehe....


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

david lim said:


> Very easy to figure this out. Unplug the CO2 and see how your fish act. If they get better then CO2, if not then pictus cat. I am going to assume that the CO2 is causing the problem, because, if it were the cat, the tetras might be stressed too. Also don't Bala Sharks need lots of low CO2/ high O2 water? Do you have a good amount of current through upper area of your tank?
> 
> If it's disease, then I don't know.. hehe....


there is not significant current, but there is significant surface agitation from the (cheapo, yes i know) hang-on-back filter, seems to keep plenty of tiny bubbles submerged, though i have no way of telling other than my eyeballs i guess.

thanks for the help


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

alright well as a first course of action, ive disconnected the co2 reactor entirely, to observe and see what happens.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

one of them is now doing some really bizarre thrashing at the surface, followed by a out-of-control inverted float to the bottom....

the situation looks dire.

24 hours ago they were just fine! arggg!


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## david lim (Mar 30, 2004)

Get some circulation going through the tank. Bubblers, powerhead that break the water surface, anything that will increase circulation and increase O2. During times of stress on a fish, I find that O2 is a good way to bring fish around. Also try to run a small water change to see if that makes a difference (at least 25%).


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

See if there's abnormal breathing from the fish. Any visual sign of infection/bloating/parasite? I'd change 50% of the water ASAP (same temperature or slightly warmer) and add 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gal of water in the tank. Maintain temperature between 75 and 78F. The HOB filter should provide adequate circulation in a 20 gal.

Looks like it's terminal for at least one of the fish. It's best not to move the fish unless you can diagnose the illness.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

furballi said:


> See if there's abnormal breathing from the fish. Any visual sign of infection/bloating/parasite? I'd change 50% of the water ASAP (same temperature or slightly warmer) and add 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gal of water in the tank. Maintain temperature between 75 and 78F. The HOB filter should provide adequate circulation in a 20 gal.
> 
> Looks like it's terminal for at least one of the fish. It's best not to move the fish unless you can diagnose the illness.


the balas all seem to be taking rapid quick shallow breaths... hanging pretty lifeless just an inch or two below the surface. no other symtoms aside from the rapidly deteriorating tail fins, all other fins retracted, and red dorsal fins. no ick-like white spots on any fish in the tank.

i changed about 35% of the water... ill try a dash of salt as well...


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

- Clean the filter and vacuum the gravel.

- Clean water should help. I've cured many fish with similar symptoms with a lot of clean warm water (75 to 78F). Turn off the light to minimize stress on the fish. Survival rate is quite high if you improve the water quality within the first 12 hours. You may also want to bump up and maintain the salt concentration at 2 teaspoons per 10 gallons by the 2nd day.

Try to change 50% of the water every other day if you see improvement in the fish.

Keep us up-to-date with their conditions.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

well. down to 3 bala sharks now.

the last one went out by randomly swimming with no directional control at full blast, banging into a bunch of stuff, then coming to rest at the bottom like a bottle rocket shot down the street.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

now down to two of the sharks.

the remaining two seem to have a bit better behavior, they have perked up a bit, but they seem to have a dusty/fuzz clinging to them. there also appears to be some dusty fuzz in the tank on the plants and such. not so much a white grain like ich stuff, but just a random dusting of crud.

there is also a like 1mm grey/whitish patch on the head of one of the sharks now. 

the tetras seem fine and happy, the snails are doing their thing, and the pictus cat still seems very subdued.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Increase the salt concentration by another teaspoon per 10 gal. Make sure you maintain this concentration level when you change 50% of the water.

Continue to do daily 50% water change.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Sorry you're having trouble.

Well, Bala's need a tank 10 times that big, and even if they're young right now, they need a lot of swimming room and a 20 gallon won't provide nearly enough for even juvies. When they are kept in a tank that's too small, they get skittish and ram into the glass, so perhaps they've hurt themselves that way.
If the last 2 make it and once you're sure they're fine, I'd save yourself a lot of trouble down the road and either return them to the store or find someone who has a 200+ gallon tank who's willing to take them in.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

JanS said:


> Sorry you're having trouble.
> 
> Well, Bala's need a tank 10 times that big, and even if they're young right now, they need a lot of swimming room and a 20 gallon won't provide nearly enough for even juvies. When they are kept in a tank that's too small, they get skittish and ram into the glass, so perhaps they've hurt themselves that way.
> If the last 2 make it and once you're sure they're fine, I'd save yourself a lot of trouble down the road and either return them to the store or find someone who has a 200+ gallon tank who's willing to take them in.


right i understand they will get very large, and i have other friends with large established tanks for them (some with balas already). at this point however i am just trying to keep the last two alive. they were very happy prior to some unknown event that killed these two in under 2 days.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

furballi said:


> Increase the salt concentration by another teaspoon per 10 gal. Make sure you maintain this concentration level when you change 50% of the water.
> 
> Continue to do daily 50% water change.


will do. the co2 has been disconnected while i deal with this, with no apparent change in any of the fish. can i rule out that the co2 was a non-factor? do you think it was just coincidence that the fish cratered when i happened to put the co2 into the tank?


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

k well when i took out the two dead balas today they were both floating upside down with a big brown spot on their stomach, no idea if that helps diagnosis or not.

no change so far today, the 2 remaining balas seem MAYBE a little perkier, still kinda a white gunky junk on them but nothing i would call "grains" like i have seen ick. the tetras are all happy with good appetite, the pictus still sitting pretty lifeless in his hiding spot not looking happy either.

im stumped.

water is now

78F
7.0pH (went up after disconnecting the CO2 i presume)
ammonia 0
nitrites .25
nitrates 5ppm

oh and i have the bit of salt in there too.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

TXaviator said:


> will do. the co2 has been disconnected while i deal with this, with no apparent change in any of the fish. can i rule out that the co2 was a non-factor? do you think it was just coincidence that the fish cratered when i happened to put the co2 into the tank?


I'm not sure if the CO2 was a factor at one bubble every few seconds. Reduce feeding for several days. Keep up with the water change.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

well the last two balas went south :-(

the ended up with a distinct white FUZZ on them. a white hairlike fuzz.

the pictus is still alive and has come out of hiding and does some swimming around, though he looks like he's breathing pretty hard. not sure if this is an improvement or a death knell. 

the tetras are still fine and happy, schooling around. been changing lots of water, about 40% a day. 

theres still a distinct white crud/gunk all over the plant leaves and such. doesnt seem to even free off the plants with big turbulent water changes. also noticing some white round spots on the glass of the tank now.

small, but definitely visible, and very widespread.

my poor plants have taken on brownish edges now too.

the two snails are still doin their thing like normal.

very stumped and bummed as to why all a sudden the tank went to hell after looking so nice and good for a while!


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

weeeelll.

its just the tetras and the snails now


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## karmalotus (May 2, 2006)

That sux dude! I just lost my whole tank and I can feel your pain!!! It almost sounds like you have some sort of fungus in there??? A friend of mine got a "deal" on cheap plants. They had fungus spores or something on them, killed all of the fish in her tank much like you described. I hope your tetra are going to continue on strong.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Clean the inside of the tank. Remove the plants/wood/rock and dip in diluted bleach for 30 to 45 seconds (19 water/1 bleach). Also clean the filter/sponge in this bleach solution. Immediately rinse all stuffs that will be re-used with tap water. I would not re-use the carbon. Those heathy plants will recover. 

Change 70% of the water by vacuuming the gravel. This should prevent further contamination of the other fish. I think the saltwater keep the disease (fungal infection) in check, but the concentration wasn't strong enough at this late stage to save the other fish.

I've seen similar infection with the introduction of a contaminated piece of wood. One must fully immerse new wood and boil in water for 30 minutes. This will nuke everything in the wood. 

The white fuzz 1st appeared on top the wood, then on one of the fish. I immediately removed the wood, added salt and bumped the concentration up to 3 tablespoons per 10 gal over three days. The infected cardinal struggled for four days, but he came out okay. It took almost two weeks for the fish to re-gain his appetite. I never had this white stuff all over my tank. 

A wide-spectrum medicated fish food may help the others that are feeding. The infected fish usually stop feeding when you see the white fuzz. Therefore, you must add medication or salt to the tank to save the fish.

You'll also see white fuzz on fish with open wounds. An effective treatment is mercurochrome (if you can find it). Net the fish and use Qtips to apply mercurochrome directly to wound once a day. I would use the salt treatment if you have sesitive fish like cardinals. Quarantine a weak cardinal will elevate the stress, which normally result in death within one day.

A high level of salt will kill many stuffs visible on the fish. The problem is that the treatment must start immediately. Once the fish's immune system goes south (erratic swimming), your chance of success is probably under 5%.

If the fish does not come up for food at feeding time, then I look for any sign of external infection and rapid breathing. Note that a ripe female may not eat for a few days.


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## TXaviator (Mar 27, 2007)

well, i went out of town for a few days so i just cranked the heat on the aquarium, put in another dash of salt and hoped for the best.


came back

all six tetras still alive and happy (at 88 degrees with co2 even!)

the white fuzz/gunk all over the tank turned to a brown, more clumpy gunk, no longer looking like a fungus/fuzz.

changed water and filter on tank when i got back and the brown gunk is being picked up by the fresh filter it seems.

tetras and snails and plants still doin fine.

any conclusions as to what this outbreak was and how to prevent it in the future??


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Without pictures of the infected fish, I can only speculate that it's some sort of fungus introduced by a new fish/sick fish, plants, or wood. Per my previous post, the salt concentration was probably strong enough to halt the propagation of this disease to other fish in the tank. Unfortunately, your intervention was a little late to treat the other sharks with the saline solution.

If the fish were semi-active, then the proper course of action would be to net them into a quarantine tank and quickly bump up the salt concentration to 5 or 6 tablespoons of salt per gal over three days. Maintain the temperature between 82 and 84F during treatment.

The amount of dissolved O2 in the tanks is highly dependent on the surface area of the tank, the amount of water circulation, and the temperature. I like to maintain at least 10 to 12 square inches of surface area for each linear inch of fish (tetras or equivalent). Triple the surface area for wide-body fish like angels and discus (also SAEs). This is my worst case scenario with no pump and 90F heat. CO2 injection should not be an issue at one or two bubbles per second.

Don't rely on the "one inch per gallon rule". A tall 50 gal hexagon tank cannot safely support the same fish load as a 4' 50 gal rectangular tank.

Lesson learned:

- Buy high quality fish and quarantine them for at least 3 days. 

- Boil new wood for at least 30 minutes before use.

- Treat new plants with diluted bleach (19:1) for 30 seconds. Rinse well immediately after treatment.

- Watch the fish for loss of appetite or abnormal breathing. These are usually the first warning signs of a problem with the fish. You can immediately treat the tank with 1.5 teaspoon of salt per 10 gal. Note that a ripe female can also exhibits these symptoms. 

I'm glad other fish are still okay. Thanks for the feedback.


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