# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Ammania gracilis



## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

*IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!*

There is tons of excellent information in this topic which concentrates on Potassium dosing in heavy planted tank. Up until now, many aquarist were following "golden rule" of 20ppm K dose without any fear of overdosing (lack of relation between K vs. algae).

Few of our members did some changes and decided to lower K levels in order to stop other nutritient deficiencies.

Please find the details below.

------------------------------------------------

I used to be able to grow Ammania gracilis
by the ton - more recently however, it hasn't
been doing well. New shoots will crumple up
and look burnt. Some stems grow just fine
but will exhibit the same crumpled growth right
after I prune. Any ideas?

-
Ghazanfar Ghori

[This message was edited by Dr.Jay on Thu May 01 2003 at 10:30 AM.]


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

*IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!*

There is tons of excellent information in this topic which concentrates on Potassium dosing in heavy planted tank. Up until now, many aquarist were following "golden rule" of 20ppm K dose without any fear of overdosing (lack of relation between K vs. algae).

Few of our members did some changes and decided to lower K levels in order to stop other nutritient deficiencies.

Please find the details below.

------------------------------------------------

I used to be able to grow Ammania gracilis
by the ton - more recently however, it hasn't
been doing well. New shoots will crumple up
and look burnt. Some stems grow just fine
but will exhibit the same crumpled growth right
after I prune. Any ideas?

-
Ghazanfar Ghori

[This message was edited by Dr.Jay on Thu May 01 2003 at 10:30 AM.]


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## russdesnoyer (Feb 3, 2003)

I recently started a thread about this topic. I've done a lot of experimenting in the past month or so and it seems to correlate directly with higher nitrate levels. Keeping everything else in balance, P around .5, Fe around .2, K at 20ppm, co2 at 30ppm and light at 4 wpg. At nitrate levels below 7ppm, gracilis grows relatively fast and pink, but starts to brown out at any level above 7ppm. I've found it can be difficult to maintain in a planted "community" tank. It's really a bummer, because if I let nitrates rise to around 10, anything green just takes off, but the ammannia invariably starts to fail. Takes about 2 weeks or so to start putting out some new pink growth after adjusting nitrates below 7. Hope this helps....

Russ


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

I don't know...sounds like we're talking about two different phenomena here: one of color and one of form. Ghazanfar, is it possible some aspect of your general hardness has been used up? Have you changed the lights recently? Any drop in water changes?

I ask these questions only as a matter of formality, actually, because I've had the same thing occur with giant hygro that seemed--for all I could tell--to correct itself eventually. I'm at a loss to explain it myself. Perhaps a change in the local water supply?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I was going to start my own topic on the subject, but...

I've always had the same problem. Nutrient levels in my tank are pretty constant. Nitrates occasionally stray, but usually they're around 3-7. Phosphates are about .5, plenty of traces, light, co2, etc. Some stems are fine, but others get all mangled and crinkly.

I recently acquired some Nesaea pedicellata and it looks *terrible*. It looks to be even more sensitive than the gracilis. It's stunted so badly that it's painful to look at. New shoots suffer the same fate.

I'm beginning to suspect that although my water has a GH of about 7, there is not enough calcium. I've even seen some stunting in Hemianthus, a mildly curled under leaf in H. corymbosa, _white_ E. quadricostatus, and twisty arcuata leaves. I got some Equilibrium with store credit, so I'm hoping that will help acheive a better calcium/magnesium balance (seems to have helped the arcuata already). Reconstituting water with a DIY recipe in the past helped but was a pain. So I'll try doing that or adding more calcium. Something is obvioulsy wrong there and I think I've eliminated most every other cause (most plants are doing just fine though).

Ramshorns snails in the tank have badly eroded and improperly growing shells, but I'm not sure if that's it or the pH is too low (6.6 in the morning).


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

That sounds like my tank! Nesaea pedicellata looks all crinkled up and nasty.
Ludwigia arcuata also has curly leaves. I've been keeping some
crushed coral in the filter for a while now to increase the calcium, and
don't dose Magnesium - GH is 6. My pH is low in the morning too but I don't
think thats it. Ca / Mg ratio is my suspicion - more so now that you've
had some luck with Equilibrium.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Ahhha at last others have the same problems i have been complaining for ages.
http://www.aquabotanic.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2542&highlight=
this is the same subject in qoutient
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=7577&forumID=3&catID=1&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={C6F4DFEE-EB07-4666-8E36-4E1A288A6451} 
What the fu.. is that? all the measurments on my tank are within the limits actually NO3 is lower than 5 lately I had the aquarium with 13 Dh and now with 5 DH with RO osmosis makes no difference, had an idea that the additional mg was maybe blocking the intake of Ca so lowered that, increased Fe presence increased traces added additional boron throu boric acid all this made absolutely no difference the tank is bubbling like hell all green grows perfect but still stellata, limnophila aromatica, some of the leaves in macrandra (this do curl a bit but mostly some stems turn pinkish then white and then rot away, nasaea, hygrophilas are also showing this curling effect all this happen in new leaves, amania has curled leaves but can't say yet if it is the same cause this are just introduced. Wrote to Paul Krombholz on this he gave me some alternatives but no positive answer one thing he said was that nylon in his aquaria was creating a curling problem for him. Could it be some toxication effect. I am in a dead end concerning this one please help if anyone suspects something.
As you I was also suspecting it was the Ca Mg ratio aswell but now I have decreased Ca decreased mg no difference maybe I have to eliminate adding mg completely from solution (I have been not able to check how much mg is initially within my water mains).
Check this that I considered within all this subject aswell
http://www.aquabotanic.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1137&highlight=

Could it be some specific trace (molybdenum)?

Please help.

[This message was edited by Freemann on Wed April 09 2003 at 06:45 AM.]


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

You whats weird is that ludwigia arcuata will grow just fine in my 
other tank - so I know its not something from my tap. I don't dose that
tank with anything but K at water cahnges (50% weekly) and occasionally
5ml of trace (once a week at the most).

Like you, everything else in the tank is growing like gangbusters.
I don't think its nitrates - atleast not in my case. I had a heavy fish
load and nitrates were always at 20ppm and Ammania grew nicely!
Now I've reduced the amount of fish and I have to suppliment nitrates to
get them to 10ppm.

Speaking of white leaves - lately it seems that the new leaves on my 
H. zosterfolia are whitish - though they green up a few days later.
Wonder what's causing that.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

You know, not to sound like a fatalist, but sometimes I think we really expect too much of our plants. Tthere are too many differences in the optimal conditions for various plants, and the more types of plants you have, the more likely it is that the needs of at least one arenât being met as well as they could be. Maybe Iâm just lazy, short of time or lacking in perfectionist tendencies (I KNOW that partâs trueâ¦), but if I have a plant that stops doing well when everything else is growing just fine, unless it recovers pretty quickly I simply remove it. Usually making more room for the other plants is always a good thing in my tanks anyway, and it either improves my aquascape or gives me the chance to try something else. There are too many plants out there that I donât have room for and really would like to have to agonize over any one that isnât doing as well as I would like. Unless, of course, itâs my rotala macranda. Thatâs DIFFERENTâ¦

And I also have plants that thrive in one tank and won't do squat in another, which also makes sense--given that every tank has its own environment and set of conditions. Sometimes, if a plant I really like ceases to do well in one, I'll often move it to another to see if it recovers.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

You know I have a friend here that grows aromatica with the ratios I gave him for the ferts and it's stem is 1 cm thick and np.
Only dofference is his water cause he lives in another area. I realy need to find this one. I wish I knew what is wrong it really frustrates me
Vicki hello
In a sense you are right.
But still my tanks are prety under controled conditions (dosing pump) so all plants within reason should grow. Still there is something missing or in excess and that creates the problem I am no prepared to settle for something less than finding the answer. I could keep perfect tanks if I choosed to grow only what likes my tanks and not what doesn't but that is not an option in my quest.


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

I usually take out a plant is its doing too well - the ones that aren't doing 
well stay until I can grow them like weeds and then they get the boot to be 
replaced with harder plants. Some plants are mainstays. 

However, since several people are have the same issue with the same plant - I'd
really like to get to the bottom of it.

What are you guys using to add K?
I'm using K2SO4 - hydroponic grade (white crystals).

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## russdesnoyer (Feb 3, 2003)

Any chance this period of slow/ugly growth might be part of some normal biological process, period of dormancy or something that happens no matter how much light, nutrients, etc. you throw at it? Just another thought...

Russ


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Hi Ghori I am using agricaltural grade K2so4 here aswell in the range of about 2,5 ppm daily.

Russdesnoyer
No this is not the case at least in my aquarium I am talking of well established plants here on a mature aquarium with 0 algae.


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

You know what...I'm going to do several
large water changes and then dose with
half the amount of K I normally do and see
if that makes a difference.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Why are you planning on reducing the amount of K? How much is in there now? Don't you have to go _really_ high with K to have too much? I'll probably end up with 80ppm if I double the Equilibrium to get a higher GH that I want. I hope that's not too much. It was probably too low when before I used that product, so we'll see how that goes. I did a big water change today. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

IME, IMO, I highly doubt this has anything
to do with a calcium/magnesium ratio issue...
unless the ratio is _really_ way off. I have
blamed calcium/magnesium too many times when
it was actually iron, nitrate, etc...

As another point, I did have Alternanthera
reineckii at one point with which I flooded
my LFS with cuttings. I had buckets of the
plant coming out of a large stand in my 55g.
After about 6 months though, it just began
to have nasty curled leaves and stunting, etc.
It was awful, and thought it was calcium
deficiency. Adding calcium didn't do anything.
A while after I stopped adding calcium and
left it to its own fate, it recovered magnificently. Go figure.

Carlos


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

High potassium reduces Mg and Ca uptake. Depending on the Mg / Ca ratio,
the plants will exhibit either Mg or Ca deficiencies.

I don't test for K. Who knows how much I have in there.
Every week, 50% water change and I add in 20ppm of K via K2SO4.
Assuming that not all of the K is used up, it'll lead to an eventual
build up of K. 

So I'm going to do a few large water changes and not dose K for a while
and see how that goes. If things seem to improve but I start seeing K
deficiency, I'll start adding 10ppm per week and see how that goes.

Likewise, high Mg reduces Ca and K uptake too. But since I don't dose Mg
I don't think thats the problem. Looks more like Ca deficiency.
I'll try it out for a few weeks and post an update here.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> IME, IMO, I highly doubt this has anything to do with a calcium/magnesium ratio issue...
> unless the ratio is _really_ way off.


I don't think it always happens for the same reason, but at this point I'm willing to try anything. 14ml of Flourish Iron and 14 ml of Flourish a week on a 30 gallon tank is a good bit. Nitrate levels are nearly always the same. I can't believe any plant would be _that_ sensitive.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Ghori keep up posted please there is a big possibility K maybe the culprit I found references to this interelation myself. I will also next time prepare a solution with no mg at all. Lowered it from 35 gr to 5 this time and wallichii recovered so this may have been the reason. I am in the dark.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Ok I did a bit more of diging in the APD text files here and I came with this references on the K - Ca relation:

In response to Tom Barrs list of good nutrient ranges, Neil Frank
mentioned that high levels of Potasium can block Ca uptake . As
someone who doses K liberally, and has seen the odd contorted leaf
even after dosing Ca I would be interested in knowing more . Could
Neil or perhaps someone else provide more information or some
links/references.

Dave Morris
Christchurch
New Zealand

----------------------------------------------------

I have seen poor growth when I had 50ppm K with much lower Ca. I speculate
this may be due to poor Ca uptake.... but in my case, I did not see the
symptoms you describe. I am basing my speculation in part on a plants
ability to use K in lieu of Ca, when the Ca is very low. A little more on
this in my response to T.Barr (next message on NPK).
Neil

----------------------------------------------------

Dave Morris wrote:

> >In response to Tom Barrs list of good nutrient ranges, Neil Frank
> >mentioned that high levels of Potasium can block Ca uptake . As
> >someone who doses K liberally, and has seen the odd contorted leaf
> >even after dosing Ca I would be interested in knowing more .

And Neil Frank responded:

>I have seen poor growth when I had 50ppm K with much lower Ca. I speculate
>this may be due to poor Ca uptake.... but in my case, I did not see the
>symptoms you describe. I am basing my speculation in part on a plants
>ability to use K in lieu of Ca, when the Ca is very low. A little more on
>this in my response to T.Barr (next message on NPK).

I've been having trouble with symptoms similar to those Dave describes in a
20-gallon lit by 55W PCF and a reflector. The most effected plant seems to
be E. parviflorus x Tropica which twists its leaves to the point it
resembles spiralis, but other "generic" swords have also been twisting and
cupping leaves. My water's GH is 6 but I'm unsure of the Ca:Mg
ratio. I've been keeping K in the vicinity of 20 ppm.

Recently, I had to leave town unexpectedly and I was gone for over a
week. While I was away, the NO3, PO4, and CO2 levels (DIY) bottomed
out. Algae has taken advantage, but what is more interesting is that the
generic swords now have young leaves which are perfectly normal. The parv.
Tropica is still trying to twist leaves but to a lesser degree than
before. I added some Kent R/O Right (a hardness builder) to the last water
change I made before leaving town -- but only a small amount -- probably no
more than 1dGH worth. It's unclear at this point whether the additional
hardness helped or not since I wasn't able to maintain the usual dosing
routine during my absence. I plan on continuing the experiment with
hardness embellishment after I spank the algae down for a few days.

Also of interest and possible importance is the fact that snails which had
lived for some time with transparent shells now seem to be filling them in
with opaque material. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
--
Chuck Huffine
Knoxville, Tennessee

Found the original postings between Tom Barr and Neil Frank aswell:

From: Neil Frank 
Subject: Re: Playing with nutrients and test kits

from Tom Barr:
>you should define a set of of good parameters for your test subject,
>I define them as
>CO2: 20-30ppm
>NO3: 5-10ppm
>K: 20-40ppm
>PO4: .4ppm(hazy on the lower range)-1.0ppm
>Traces: Hazy, I go to 1.0ppm Fe or so 1 hour after addition. Some go with
>.1ppm. Harder waters will need more.
>GH: 3-25
>KH: 3 and up
>NH4: 0.05 or less
>Good tank mixing, filtration etc
>Lighting 2-4 watts a gallon

Tom, An excellent list of all the important ingredients for general plant
growing purposes. The only things you may have left off are "plant
density" and "experience." Of course, lots and or fast growing plants are
needed for those level of nutrients. But more importantly, I would HIGHLY
suggest the higher end of range of some parameters for the more experienced
underwater gardener. -- DEFINITELY, lower PO4 levels for the beginner, and
for folks with the softer water. Too risky to cause algae to become
established and for them to not notice that the plants are not responding
positively before it is too late. Other comments:
*Regular and sizeable water changes are recommended - (which you said
later), and
- size and frequency increase with higher nutrient dosing.
*GH should include good balance of Ca and Mg - ~3:1 for softer water,
higher ratios are OK for harder.
**Important to prevent the K from exceeding the suggested range with soft water or there can be problems with Ca uptake.*
*For comparisons to N and P: P is ~1/3 of PO4 and N is ~1/4 of NO3
*less PO4 is needed in water column for "rooted" plants; especially in
established tanks which can have a P reserve in a soil/laterite substrate.

Readers should comment and add other points!

> Folks with low CO2 will get algae (in this case our indicator
>preturbation->poor or low CO2 with high light, PO4, NO3 etc all at the
>preset range except for CO2) and poor plant growth. You need to make sure
>the other nutrients are in good shape during this period.

What are the other combinations that will result in algae?

[This message was edited by Freemann on Thu April 10 2003 at 11:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by Freemann on Thu April 10 2003 at 11:24 AM.]


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

So if not all the K from my weekly 20ppm
gets used up, I'd easily have 50ppm or over
in a period of a couple of months which then
would reduce the plants ability to use Ca.
Two 50% water changes over a period of a few
days should bring my K down to acceptable
levels. I'll not dose K for a couple of weeks
and see how the tank reacts. If this is the
culprit - the change should be quite noticable.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

If yur plants are suffering from a calcium deficiency then you may be able to treat the problem by pushing calcium suppliment tablets into the substrate below the plants. This method works better if the plants have a well-developed root system.

I know of three causes for stunted new growth in aquarium plants. First is a calcium deficiency or an imbalance among electrolytes that interfere's with plants' ability to adsorb calcium. Second is a deficiency of boron. Third is a toxin.

Hydroponics literature suggests that magnesium, calcium and potassium should be provided in proportions near 1:2:2 Mg:Ca:K. High concentrations of any of these three can prevent plants from adsorbing the other two. My impression is that magnesium levels are the most critical. Magnesium should never exceed calcium levels. Dose magnesium with care. Sodium is also a problem, but in my experience plants are not as sensitive to sodium as they may be to imbalances with magnesium. Ca:Na ratios of 1:5 may not cause problems. Ca:Na ratios of 1:10 will cause problems. Unfortunately, such extreme ratios occur fairly frequently in softened water and in water supplies pumped from sand or sandstone aquifers.

Boron deficiency can also cause stunting, but boron is also toxic to some plants. The difference between the amount that is beneficial to some plants and the amount that is toxic to others is fairly small. If you contemplate dosing with boron you should first check with your water utility to see how much boron is provided by your water supply. Hydroponics literature suggest levels near 0.3 ppm; if memory serves, 0.6 ppm may be toxic to some plants. Considerably smaller concentrations then 0.3 ppm are probably all that is normally needed.

Several years ago Paul Krombolz' plants experienced stunting problems similar to calcium deficiency and he tracked the problem down to some coated nylon screen he was using in the tank. Apparently something that leached from the nylon or from its coating was toxic to plants. Plastics commonly leach chemicals called plasticizers. The plastic hardens as the plasticizers are lost. I've had a lot of suction cups harden in my tank and I often worry about the possible effect from the plasticizers that may be leached into the water.


Roger Miller


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

The plant Paul Krombholz had problems with
due to the nylon was Hemianthus micranthemoides
(the plant is also sensitive to erythromycin,
which I accidentally found out when I dosed
a tank to get rid of cyano).

Back to the Ammania, I'm curious to know
what are the Fe/trace dosing levels that all
of you are using. I was dicussing this
problem with a local who grows both Ammania
gracilis and Nesaea pedicellata with great
success. The only times it stunts for him
is when nitrates are too low (I've found
this to be true, too), and when there isn't
enough Fe/traces in the water it also shows
distorted growth. Water hardness here in
Chicago: GH 8-9, KH 4-5.

Carlos


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Thanks for your responses. I sent a sample of my tap water to a friend of mine with a Lamotte calcium and magnesium hardness test kit, so I should have an answer on that soon. 

What am I to make of the snail shell problems? Can erosion and improper growth of the shell occur in the presence of plenty of calcium if the pH is low enough?


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

My older ramshorns show the opaque, white
spots on the shells which gradually spread
until they die. My plants show no calcium
deficiencies...

Carlos


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

It's not just my older ones though. All but the smallest.


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## toshi (Jan 29, 2004)

Ghazanfar,

Tsunami is probably on target (tsu, good to chat with you today). I have grown quite a lot of Ammannia over the years and in water that originates from the tap extremely soft (circa 1 dGh), requiring close attention to Ca/Mg dosing to maintain decent parameters for strong growth.

Try doubling your traces and see what develops. I generally use Ammannia as a trace indicator plant when growing it in various tanks - everyone does this here and there, picking certain favorite plants and working to keep them happy - using them as a proxy of sorts, for all other species maintained in a particular setup. Tolerance for traces is extremely high in most well-run planted tanks. Give your traces a serious amp and see what develops. If there's any negative fallout you can do a large water change. If not... well there you go.

But with all due respect, I think chasing dissolving equipment, Ca/Mg, or even proportions of Ca/Mg/K to sodium will drive you crazy, unless you truly suspect that K excess is the culprit. In short, simply dose these items in proportions suggested here or elsewhere and be done with them, with water changes to compensate as necessary (as it sounds like you're doing) if things are out of place. Ammania has a very strong tolerance to various Gh levels and proportions (ask me how I know). There can be a tendency to go quite far in a search for reasons as to stunting... but usually it's the simplest solutions that eventuate.

[As an aside, a few years back I was running 8dGh and nearly 80ppm K within a 4' tank, growing a wall of Ammannia. I subsequently lowered the K level but had been running it that high (and presumably higher) for some time before I got my hands on a test kit. To be honest, it would be hard for me to prove that one can duplicate these parameters and still have success; perhaps extra K truly does result in marked stunting attributable to the blocking of Ca uptake - but I haven't seen/corroborated it with my own eyes as yet. I try to keep in mind that in the past, information flying around that seemingly answered some questions only raised further questions, because not everyone who might have tried to lend a helping hand was running a system where all parameters were accounted and maintained. The variability of setups is significant... but such is the nature of anecdotal information. I'm interested as well, to see what you find Ghazanfar!]

Cheers,









Erik Leung
e-aquaria.com

[This message was edited by toshi on Sat April 19 2003 at 11:06 PM.]


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Well, I finally found out what the Ca/Mg ratio is in my tap water. It's about 4-5 to 1. So that's not the problem. 

I was adding 2 ml of both a 2/1 Flourish/Flourish trace mixture and Flourish Iron every day. I have since upped it to 2.5 of each. I'm trying not to get my hopes too high, but the Nesaea is starting to grow normal shoots (knock on wood). 

I think that I definitely have/had a K level that is/was way too high. To get a GH of 6 with the Equilibrium (double dose), I would end up with a K level of 80! I don't know why they put that much K in that stuff. If they made it so the recommended dose gave you a GH of 6 with a 4/1 Ca/Mg ratio and 20ppm K, I think it would be a better product. In any case, I'm no longer using it. Back to the subject at hand... 

I'm trying to find out from my water company how much K is in the tap water. They said they would get back to me about that Monday. More K gets added in the Flourish and potassium phosphate I add, so I'm trying to determine how much more if any I should add once I get the level down from overdose levels with a few water changes. At this point I'm wondering if I'll ever need to use any of the Flourish Potassium I have or any potassium sulfate. 

Some Echinodorus quadricostatus are still white. I put a Flourish Tab under one and that helped for a little bit. A stem of H. corymbosa has strongly crinkled leaves. I'll see what happens when I lower the K and report back. I was thinking that 2ml per day of that Flourish stuff (30 gallons - PCF and T8s) might be too much but I guess not! 

I suppose the problem could be a combination of the excess K and not enough traces. After all, I did have those problems before I started using the Equilibrium (without the added traces). After I did, I may have been causing it with too much potassium. I'll see how it goes with the lower K and more traces.


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Cavan,

I've increased my dosing for a 20 gallon
long from 20 mL to 30 mL per week for the
Seachem Flourish and Seachem Trace with even
less algae. I'm just going by what my plants
tell me. Stargrass looking a little paler
and not bubbling? Boost it up a little more.
Toshi was right when he said that high Fe/traces was the key in high light setups.
Keep us informed about the situation! It
would be interesting to see how high those
K levels are and see if you can grow
that Nesaea pedicellata without problems. The
Blyxa you sent seems to be slowly picking up
speed/health.

Carlos


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

Ok. It's the K. I stopped dosing completly
and no more Ca deficiency. Infact, I can
almost swear that almost everything thing 
grew faster. My gratiola that had been a slow
grower was definitly affected - it grew faster
than I had ever seen it grow! 
I'm going to start dosing K again - but only
5ppm instead of 20ppm.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

FYI, I've had the same experience. This thread prompted me to stop dosing K over the last couple of weeks, and I saw an immediate difference in pretty much everything and especially in my rotala macranda and didiplis. Over the last couple of months everything seemed to be slowing down, and I had seen signs of calcium deficiency in the macranda. I blamed an overgrown sword plant for sucking nutrients out of the tank, but now I'm convinced that even if that was a factor, my potassium levels were way too high.

http://www.wheelpost.com

[This message was edited by Vicki on Thu May 01 2003 at 07:08 AM.]


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## Guest (May 2, 2003)

Why is my Nesaea and Ammannia not stunting?
If this mechanism exist, where the heck is it then?

I've read enough "me too's" over the years. PO4 causes algae, poor test kits, poor general conditions, lack of water changes, soft water is better for plants, etc.

Many folks for many years have been using SeaChem EQ which has a good deal of K and K2SO4 and KNO3 with soft water.

They have nice stands of Eustralis, Ammannia, you name it.

Why is the K not inhibiting the Ca uptake in these tanks?

The Plant fairy?
Magic water?

If less K is working then do it, but I don't think K is causing your problems.
10-20ppm might be a better range since some folks seem to have issues. 10-20 vs 20-30 or even 40ppm will not hurt a tank. It's a big target.

You all might want to consider the plants you are talking about also. These are semi funny plants for some folks and rather than generalizing, often is might be better to consider only certain plant where something might make a difference.
Eustralis, Ammannia and Nesaea are generally funny plants. I would not make any broad based conclusions on any of these plants. They have grown for me like true Weeds.

Each have become very large in my tanks, 5-6" diameter, pinky finger sized stems.

And high K+..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Ghazanfar and Vicki,

Would you both please post your experience on the "Potassium problems" summary thread that I started in the main forum? The discussion on the topic got spread into quite a few different threads, and I'd like to see it all in one spot.

You don't need to answer all the questions if you don't have the information, just your experience is sufficient.


I'd appreciate it,
Roger Miller


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> If this mechanism exist, where the heck is it then?


Well, its known that at excessive levels potassium competes with calcium and magnesium for uptake by terrestrial plants. Why wouldn't
this be true for aquatic plants?

Without a test kit - I don't know how much
potassium I had in my tank. I've been dosing
it at 20ppm for almost a year. Problems started
around the start of this year and slowly increased until I simply couldnt grow ammania
gracilis or ludwigia arcuata. The only thing
I changed in the past few weeks was doing
several large water changes and then not dosing
potassium. The results are quite dramatic. The
plants that were stunting are now growing like
weeds again. Could it be something else? 
Sure - it could be. Won't be sure until some
controlled experiments are done - but for now, I'll stick with K overdose since it seems to
be working.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

It's the old story. "Man my foot hurts. Maybe if I move the car my foot will quit hurting." If the car is sitting on your foot it will help a lot. Otherwise it won't. I have had the same experience as GG. Plants stunting, twisted growth. I do water changes, cut back on the K dosing and everything is going good again. It might not be the K inhibiting the Ca uptake but it sure looks like it to me. Maybe it's a overdose of SO4?

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