# 15 gallon otocinclus, er...biotope?



## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Just set up a tank I've been dreaming of for quite a while. It is a 15 gallon dirted tank with all South American native plants, that will eventually house between 10-15 otocinclus. I would love for them to breed in this tank (I'll do that research along the way) but moreso would just enjoy them being able to school. So often they are kept in smaller numbers, but I find their way of swimming and social behavior really neat.

Plants are: cabomba, Brazilian pennywort, tropica sword, microsword, Amazon frogbit and one rosette of dwarf sagittaria

In the long run I plan to purposely encourage algae growth and also feed vegetables and Replashy Soylent Green. Perhaps some plant-based sinking foods made for shimp as well.

I had a sponge filter that I wanted to use but it took up waaay too much space so I may just get an airstone like my other tanks and leave it at that if I end up with healthy parameters that way.

I plan to update here along the way. Thanks for looking 🙂


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

That's really very nice! I like oto's too, and I think you did a great job leaving them space to do their thing. Looking forward to seeing them in the tank.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Love the picture with the cat. Your tank certainly brightens up a dark corner!

You may know more about these fish than I do or have a source of domestic-bred Otocinclus. However, while researching my article on parasites in fish, I was struck by the particularly high parasite load carried by captured Otocinclus intended for export. 
Table 4 in the article compares parasite prevalence with Otocinclus and other Amazonian tropical fish https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/diseasesurveysa.pdf

I always had trouble keeping these fish alive more than a month or two. If I were to try again, I would be careful where I bought them, treat them for parasites right off the bat and cull any fish that weren't thriving.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

I have not been able to find a captive bred source, though I'd probably be willing to pay a pretty penny for them if I did! Thanks for the reminder about parasites, I'll be proactive about that when I get them regardless. 

I have only kept them once before in my first planted tank, a 29 gallon. I had 3 and they all survived for probably a year until I moved abruptly and had to sell the tank. My hope is to increase their survival rates by keeping *ample* food available.

I have also read that they are routinely poisoned with cyanide when being wild caught to slow them down enough to net. I believe that is a big part of the struggle with keeping them alive long term. And it's my main reason for wanting to breed them, honestly. I hope in the future they will be commonly available captive bred.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Dropping this useful thread about some confirmed oto breeding for reference

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29245


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Diana, can you recommend what medications specifically to use against potential parasites? And should I get a second tank cycled for this purpose or will the chemicals have no negative effect on my plants?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Like you, I really like these little fish but always had high mortality. A friend who used to import fish for a living thinks that most otocinclus are starved for proper food after capture. This causes their beneficial gut flora to die, and even if they get adequate food later they can't digest it.

My last group of 6 came from Rachel O'Leary https://msjinkzd.com/. It took a long time to get the order and shipping was expensive, but not a single fish died. The original 6 are still thriving 2 years later. I think the difference is she gets the fish directly from the importer, and then gives them very good aftercare and quarantine before they are sold.


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

kafkabeetle said:


> I have not been able to find a captive bred source, though I'd probably be willing to pay a pretty penny for them if I did!


Same for me. Am reluctant to buy more of them otherwise.

When I have had new ones in the past, I gave them boiled zucchini slices hung in the quarantine tank. They go for those, and I least I knew they were eating until their little bellies are round.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Michael said:


> My last group of 6 came from Rachel O'Leary https://msjinkzd.com/. It took a long time to get the order and shipping was expensive, but not a single fish died. The original 6 are still thriving 2 years later. I think the difference is she gets the fish directly from the importer, and then gives them very good aftercare and quarantine before they are sold.


Thank you! That is really useful info! I wonder if she would have named species too.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Here's video of a guy breeding otos





It's cheaper to get them from the wild is the reason you don't find tank bred oto.
It seems they do better in a species tank. They'll starve in a community tank or at least no pleco competing for food.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> It's cheaper to get them from the wild is the reason you don't find tank bred oto.


That's what I've been reading but if you Google "captive bred otos" or the like there so tons of people discussing on forums how they wish they could get them. I sounds like there is a market for possibly much more expensive tank raised otos.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

kafkabeetle said:


> I sounds like there is a market for possibly much more expensive tank raised otos.


probably not regular otos but zebra oto. Those guys are great. I'd get them again if I have space for a species tank.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> kafkabeetle said:
> 
> 
> > I sounds like there is a market for possibly much more expensive tank raised otos.
> ...


I mean...I would pay more for "ordinary" otos too if they were not wild. They'd probably live longer and be much hardier in addition to sidestepping the bad collection techniques. I don't think I'm alone in that.

That said though, I may be better off getting cocama (zebra otos) just because they are more likely to be correctly identified. All the other species look so much alike it is possible I would end up with a group of mixed species (or subspecies, idk). I haven't been able to find anyone confirming that the several look-a-like species are actually capable of interbreeding. And maybe I wouldn't even want them to. My dream goal really is to contribute something to the hobby by breeding them...I'm just keeping my expectations low realistic. Perhaps I will be surprised.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> Thank you! That is really useful info! I wonder if she would have named species too.


Just check her availability list on the web site. It changes frequently, and I do remember her offering several different species in the past. She is careful about species identification.


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## jfhrtn (May 7, 2018)

Wow great looking tank so far. Looking forward to seeing how this tank progresses over the months ahead. I have the same light your running and add the plants have adjusted after a light switch I'm getting some decent growth with it. It would be nice to see someone breeding Oto's. Wish they were more available from captive breeding then the harsh methods catching them in the wild. Might have some higher survival rates if they were captive bred but I do agree O'Leary had some great specimens of fish and inverts alike. Definitely following this journal and great work so far. 

-James

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

eh, not a fan of Rachel's listings.
_*insert productive comment here*_


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

DutchMuch said:


> eh, not a fan of Rachel's listings.
> _*insert productive comment here*_


I didn't know about her before this thread but I've been enjoying her videos. Go ahead, what's your specific criticism?


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

jfhrtn said:


> I have the same light your running and add the plants have adjusted after a light switch I'm getting some decent growth with it.


That's good to hear! I bought it based on the price and the Amazon reviews. I know there is an epidemic of fake reviews so I'm glad I didn't buy junk lol The duckweed has grown roots and there's just barely some niceable growth on the tops of the cabomba-- so far so good! I'll resist posting photos more than once a week so there is really something new to see each time.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

kafkabeetle said:


> I didn't know about her before this thread but I've been enjoying her videos. Go ahead, what's your specific criticism?


As a person lemme say Rachel is great imo.
As some of the information she gives, I can disagree with a good amount of it, but we all disagree with some peoples information.
My biggest pet peeve is she imports (I believe) which IMO makes her "just another seller" so there's no 'special big deal' for me other than I gotta wait a while for the fish I want to get in stock or ship out lol.
Anyway sorry I got backtracked and carried away: my (real) biggest pet peeve is her book she wrote, it has some of the Worst information ive seen in it. You may as well be asking a petsmart employee for fish care info. As for her current ways she has changed, cause that specific book was written by her a while ago yet she still sells it (not sure why exactly since the info is wrong).

Anyway thats just my opinion, her videos are super nice (I dont watch them however, I dont do youtube much lol) compared to a lot of the other bigger channels, and her current info is nice, but I dont see the difference much between her and other stores- like I said just my opinion. But i'd 100% buy from her before I bought from dou- I mean buceplant&#8230; LOL.

Hope some of that made sense sometimes I get carried away typing senseless stuff. hehe.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Rachel does breed some of her fish. If you want to make some money as a retailer, you have to import some.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

DutchMuch said:


> kafkabeetle said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't know about her before this thread but I've been enjoying her videos. Go ahead, what's your specific criticism?
> ...


None of that really scares me away because I have a specific objective in mind which it sounds like she can meet...well-cared for otocinclus. Imported sounds like currently the only option for this species. Do you have any other sources in mind that could provide consistently healthy and round-belled otos? I need a strong foundation if I have any hope of breeding them.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

kafkabeetle said:


> None of that really scares me away because I have a specific objective in mind which it sounds like she can meet...well-cared for otocinclus. Imported sounds like currently the only option for this species. Do you have any other sources in mind that could provide consistently healthy and round-belled otos? I need a strong foundation if I have any hope of breeding them.


Nope I have no source for those, Unfortunatly  
yea and like I said its just MO there's nothing really "BAD" about her store that I can even think of (lol) its just something I dont prefer and dont see as a potential option for me. As everyone else does I got my go-to's! 
anyway following this journal now just cuz :3 hey do u plan on breeding the otos btw? that'd be cool.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

kafkabeetle said:


> Diana, can you recommend what medications specifically to use against potential parasites? And should I get a second tank cycled for this purpose or will the chemicals have no negative effect on my plants?


I used Levamisole HCl for treating my guppies with great success. It won't hurt plants and is highly effective against many parasites. Praziquantel is helpful but didn't give me the bull's eye of Levamisole. See my article 'Flukes and Sick Guppies'.
https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/sick-guppies.pdf

You may be able to avoid all this by buying your fish from a knowledgeable vendor who has already treated the fish for parasites and weeded out the sick/weaker fish.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I to vouch for levamisole, always have some on hand!


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks for the info! I'm not seeing Levamisole HCI made for fish. Can I use the powders made for farm animals, so long as I use the correct dosage?

Another question: I have always used Malaysian trumpet snails to keep my substrate healthy. But with the long term possibilty of breeding otos in this tank, I didn't want to add anything that might eat their eggs. Lots of people detest snails and don't use them right? With enough roots growing in the substrate it'll be alright, right?

Quick update-- everything I growing well. I've removed some melted growth from the cabomba, pennywort and duckweed but what remains is in good shape. The microsword is yellowing...I'm waiting to remove the yellowed leaves so I don't accidentally uproot them. I also was reminded what an incredibly slow grower it can be and decided to move it all forward, a little more densely planted up against the glass. Then I added pygmy chain sword to fill in the gap. I'm pleased with the height contrasts between them.

I initially added some pure ammonia to fishless cycle so that it was at 1ppm. But then I read a little more about it and was waffling on doing a big water change...sounds like bacteria and plants can grow easier sometimes in the presence of lower levels of ammonia, potentially just what the soil will release. Thursday ammonia was reading at 2ppm, with no nitrite (which I was getting right away when I planted). So I changed 50% and yesterday read 1ppm ammonia and .25ppm nitrite. I'm not super concerned about the speed of cycling as long as things are growing and not dying because it will take time to get access to the fish I want anyway.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The best article I've read on levamisole is here: https://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1 I've used the method described to treat camalanus in pearl gouramis with great success, praziquantel would not touch them. The levamisole was sold as hog wormer at the feed store.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

I looked for the dewormer at Tractor Supply today and they didn't have it, I'll just have to get it online.

I'm in the trenches of a massive diatom bloom currently. I suspected that it was coming from some stones I had taken from my yard to hold the driftwood down...like maybe they were leeching silicates? I removed those, started doing daily 30% water changes, moved the light as high as it would go and shortened the photoperiod. They do seem more under control now. Plants are growing alright but probably would all have been smothered by now without major intervention.

Parameters today were .25 ppm ammonia, 10 ppm nitrite and 10 ppm nitrate


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It's good you're addressing a potential algae bloom right at the beginning.

I don't think the stones or the silicates are causing the algae. After all, gravel and sand would probably release more silicates than stones. Any chance it could be the driftwood? Driftwood is not always as inert as it's supposed to be.

The article 'Flukes and Sick Guppies' on my book's website lists 3 on-line sources for Levamisole HCl.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> It's good you're addressing a potential algae bloom right at the beginning.
> 
> I don't think the stones or the silicates are causing the algae. After all, gravel and sand would probably release more silicates than stones. Any chance it could be the driftwood? Driftwood is not always as inert as it's supposed to be.
> 
> The article 'Flukes and Sick Guppies' on my book's website lists 3 on-line sources for Levamisole HCl.


The driftwood is certainly growing loads of diatoms and this clearish fungus stuff. Honestly every time I've ever used driftwood it has gone through some period where funky stuff was growing on it, but it always passes. This piece I soaked outdoors inside the tank for about a month while I was making certain the tank held water. It got fuzzy out there too. I scrubbed it before putting it back in the tank when I set it up indoors. Do you think I should pull it out and boil it or something? Or will it pass if I'm patient?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't know, because I have never kept driftwood in any of my tanks.

That said, I would watch out for problems where the driftwood contacts the substrate. If the driftwood is decomposing in your tank, here is where it will form anaerobic pockets and generate toxins. I can't imagine that boiling the wood would help. Your letter indicates that patience might be the solution.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> I don't know, because I have never kept driftwood in any of my tanks.
> 
> That said, I would watch out for problems where the driftwood contacts the substrate. If the driftwood is decomposing in your tank, here is where it will form anaerobic pockets and generate toxins. I can't imagine that boiling the wood would help. Your letter indicates that patience might be the solution.


That's interesting, it never occurred to me before that the method you describe in your book doesn't include any type of hardscape. I also wonder then if it might be less problematic to have stones (for instance, or driftwood for that matter) that touch the bottom of the tank so there is no soil below to go anaerobic.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yes, under rocks, you'd find anaerobic spots too. I don't put dirt under my hardscape.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

kafkabeetle said:


> I also wonder then if it might be less problematic to have stones (for instance, or driftwood for that matter) that touch the bottom of the tank so there is no soil below to go anaerobic.


If you want to add rocks, which are inert (not going to decompose and fuel bacterial growth), fine. Rest the rocks on the glass bottom or a bed of sand. Driftwood that is still decomposing will produce problems wherever you put it. Please be careful when you put driftwood in your tank.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> kafkabeetle said:
> 
> 
> > I also wonder then if it might be less problematic to have stones (for instance, or driftwood for that matter) that touch the bottom of the tank so there is no soil below to go anaerobic.
> ...


Thank you for the advice. I'm not fully discouraged on the driftwood yet, as I've kept it successfully before and eventually my otocinclus will appreciate eating microrganisms that grow on it...once it's done growing funky stuff.

But I did pull the main piece out, scrubbed the heck out of it and rinsed until it was just clean, solid wood again. I was reading that sometimes the softer wood on the outside decays much faster than the harder wood on the inside so hopefully I have removed a major part of the problem.

When returning it to the tank I changed the orientation so that less of the wood is submerged and also sat it on top of a small Mason jar. While I understand that the soil beneath the jar can still become anaerobic, it is covering a muuuch smaller area and almost no wood is coming into direct contact with the substrate now.

And btw, it definitely was going anaerobic beneath the largest part of the driftwood. I pressed the entire surface of the substrate with my hand until no more bubbles were coming up...there were pockets throughout. I also moved a small amount of sand from the very front of the tank to the back to create a small gradient that gives me just a little bit of depth with minimal risk and without the need to tear the whole tank down.

Hopefully this all will set me on a little better path where I don't have to do so many water changes. Everything is growing but the frogbit has really not been appreciating being jostled around and having to regrow broken roots...


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Another thought I just had is that this could *maybe* be a blessing in disguise if the diatoms persist past the tank being fully cycled. I'm planning to put a dozen algae eating fish in the tank. Algae eating fish that are partial to diatoms. Algae eating fish partial to diatoms whose greatest struggle for long term survival is getting enough to eat. As long as my plants aren't smothered out by the time I add fish, I believe this may be a very good place to keep and potentially breed some otocinclus! Right?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

That sounds reasonable to me. Your tank might be just the ticket for them!


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Just a little update. Still mid-cycle with ammonia turning to nitrites quickly, loads of nitrites and some nitrates. Still battling diatoms but not quite so bad and the driftwood is still fuzzy but not near as bad. I added a background that I think improves the appearance a lot...from a distance away you can't even tell there are diatoms lol. I also found what I think is a freshwater limpet...I've had all types of creepy crawlies in my tanks but limpets are a first for me. Kinda neat.


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## tin-dandelion (Jul 13, 2018)

Hi, 

technical question: what light brand do you use?


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

tin-dandelion said:


> Hi,
> 
> technical question: what light brand do you use?


It's this exact light: 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B074Z77W14?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title

I have considered that a big part in this is just too much light and have dimmed it down to the dimmest setting that still has a pleasing color


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## tin-dandelion (Jul 13, 2018)

Thanks for the info! Nice light, seems quite cheap + dimmer option is handy.


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

tin-dandelion said:


> Thanks for the info! Nice light, seems quite cheap + dimmer option is handy.


Yeah I worried it would be cheap quality but it's suited my purposes just fine so far. So glad it's dimmable because it's hard to know if you've got too little or too much light until you start seeing symptoms. I can't afford the fancy stuff...got student loans to pay off hopefully before I'm dead lol which is also why my two other tanks are sun lit. This tank though does remind me how much easier it is to see your fish and plants with direct lighting from above


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## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Its not a drastic difference in photos but I'm happy to report that the diatoms have passed! I think the wood still had a soft layer on it that needed to break down. With those nutrients consumed it's looking more or less like all the other driftwood I have in other tanks. 

I'm working on poking the substrate daily because it is bringing up sulphur smelling bubbles but it does not appear to be inhibiting the growth of the plants. No more water changes for a while...I think my cycle has been getting stalled by my use of Prime water conditioner which locks up the ammonia or some such thing.

I also added the sponge filter I initially decided was too large just to make sure there is lots of surface area for positive bacteria to take hold. Turned the pump waaay down, hopefully my frogbit will enjoy that.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

kafkabeetle said:


> I also added the sponge filter I initially decided was too large just to make sure there is lots of surface area for positive bacteria to take hold. Turned the pump waaay down, hopefully my frogbit will enjoy that.


You really don't need to worry about surface area for good bacteria in a tank like this. (The gravel and upper layer of soil will provide plenty; the plants will also help take care of ammonia and nitrites). SO, if your Frogbit is getting jostled, I would turn down the pump even more and/or direct the water outlet towards a tank corner.

Also, looking at this tank, I can't help feeling that a little Java moss, H. bolbitis or Java Fern would surely look nice attached to that driftwood. Just a thought...


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