# Dirt Tank Experience !!



## Pheesh!!

Just set up my first dirted tank (10 g, pressurized CO2 with old paintball tank (it works great!!), T5 HO x2, no ferts quite yet (as I think I would be asking for a major algae outbreak due to excess nutrients in the water column) about 8 weeks ago (MTS wet-dry method, miracle grow organic potting soil), and let me tell you…. it honestly has been one of the biggest hassles. I have been keeping tanks for about 2.5 years now, so I am no expert, but I do have my fair share of experience. I have read a ton about tanks over the past couple of years and have learned a lot of valuable information, but I feel like I was somewhat misguided when it comes to the dirted tank. I am posting on the forum to share my experience and to hopefully get some insight from other people if they have tried a dirt tank.

It is incredibly difficult to keep clean, so if pristine tanks are your thing than a dirted tank will not be for you. I have capped my soil with about 1.5-2 inches of black fluorite on about 2/3 of the tank, and capped with sand on the remaining 1/3 (I have corys ). Although I mineralized the soil (I believe that to be the correct use of the term for mineralized, though I am not making hume or whatever it is known by ) it did not seem to make any difference in ammonia spikes/hydrogen sulfide buildup from organic matter breakdown by anaerobic bacteria (though I have no idea what it would have been like had I not taken this step at all). IME, if there is one single aspect of dirted tanks that you should realize it is the fact that this buildup of gas is unavoidable. Although it can be harmful to fish, I have not seen any ill effects from it. I did lose 2 corys about 3 weeks after setup but I think the ammonia is what did it (performed more water changes after this). However, the biggest issue is in that as these gas bubbles build up, they will certainly make their way to the top of the substrate and erupt, which sends out a plume of mud/dirt which can then settle on leaves and substrate (esp. visable on the sand portion of the tank). Many people attempt to relieve excess gas buildup by poking into the soil or using their hand to push it down (which both definitely work), but it makes the tank a mess as well. My tank is heavily, heavily planted, a must for the dirted tank IMO, but now that my cap is on and I have realized the mess that can come from the dirt it would be a risk to try and plant any more, or to even move plants. 

I did have a slight blue-green algae outbreak for about 5 days, but nothing a little 3% hydrogen peroxide can't fix (I highly recommend it as long as you don’t use too much as you can pretty much kill everything – I use maybe 3 mL in the 10g and just spot treat with a syringe). I have also included red clay (Amaco Mexican pottery clay which I got from Staples in my town) rolled into small balls within the substrate as a source of iron. I decided to cap with fluorite for several reasons. I love the way it looks (as long as it’s black fourite), as an additional source of iron for my red plants and because of the high CEC. I figured with the potential for nutrient overload the high CEC would help to retain some within the substrate which could then be used by my plants (as we all know plants take up most of their nutrients via the roots with the exception of plants such as java moss which do not root). Flourite is an inert substrate itself providing no nutrients to the plant, but that is why I also have the dirt. 

Despite the mess that dirt causes, I will say that it has provided results just as others who have used it have decribed. My plants include pennywart, java moss, cryps, ludwigia ripens, ammania praetermissa, rotala indica, microsorum pteropus and echinodorus parviflorus, and they are all absolutely exploding. Apparently ammania praetermissa is one of the most difficult plants, if not THE most difficult, in all of the hobby to grow, yet mine seem to be doing amazing in the dirt . They are absolute CO2 hogs (without it they will definitely turn green on you, so a DIY yeast setup probably wont cut it), but they are absolutely worth it. If I get time I can throw on some pictures. 

I’m interested to hear from others on the forum who have tried dirt in the past or have a tank now. What have you done or tried that seems to actually keep the dirt under the cap? Perhaps having dirt here and there is just something I must live with while having a dirted tank, but I’d rather not accept that. Also, have you found that hydrogen sulfide buildup comes to a halt at a certain point, or is it something that will take place for the life of the tank? 

Apologies for the long post, but I can’t stand when people leave out vital information about their tank/experience that may actually help others. 

Cheers!!


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## Tugg

It sounds like you didn't let the MGOC finish breaking down. I've read a lot of reviews about it causing problems because it is so rich. The reason it gets recommended is because it's consistently the same over a large geographic region, readily available, and known fish safe. Its actually not an ideal choice, it's simply the one that just about everyone will have available.


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## Aquaticz

what is the ideal choice?


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## AKnickolai

I'm not sure if it is the ideal choice, but I'll share what I've done with my dirt tank. It has been up and running several months now and I'm very happy with it. There were no sources of good top soil for me to make MTS with in my area, they were all loaded with sticks, twigs, and junk that would had rotted in my tank.

My solution was to go into my back yard and dig ~3 feet down to the clay layer in the soil. I used this soil for my tank, fortified with some Osmocote, Azomite, and a dusting of Humus. I placed the Osmocote, Azomite, and Humus in the tank first, covered with ~1.5" of clay (mixed with some Turface) from my back yard, and added a cap of 50/50 Turface/gravel. The tank has CO2 and has been running for 3+ months now, plant growth has been amazing, especially with crypts. Growth rate is probably 60-75% of my hi tech EI tank, and algae is easier to control. Both tanks are in the medium light bucket. This seems like a really good alternative for those of us that don't have a good source of top soil to make MTS with, I've never had a better growing or lower maintenance tank before.


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## Tugg

Aquaticz said:


> what is the ideal choice?


I don't think you can say there is an ideal choice. This is why MGOC is referenced so often. It just needs to be prepared extensively, and patients (as always) is the key to success.




Pheesh!! said:


> Although I mineralized the soil (I believe that to be the correct use of the term for mineralized, though I am not making hume or whatever it is known by ) it did not seem to make any difference in ammonia spikes/hydrogen sulfide buildup from organic matter breakdown by anaerobic bacteria (though I have no idea what it would have been like had I not taken this step at all). IME, if there is one single aspect of dirted tanks that you should realize it is the fact that this buildup of gas is unavoidable.


Actually the mineralization process IS the process of turning it into humas. It's not inorganic minerals, but instead a much more stable mix of organic matter. With the composting completed, you shouldn't get the heavy ammonia spikes. MGOC has rich ferts in it, so this can take a while. The MGOC is also just about 100% organic. It's a good idea to mix it to about a 50/50 ratio of Safe-T-Sorb or other high CEC material. This will allow the soil mix to adsorb the nutrients from the water column (food/waist) and hold it safely for the plants, as well as leach some iron. If your water is especially soft, you may want to mix in some crushed oyster shells to help buffer the pH and prevent it from become too acidic as well. To help break up the gas, some Malaysian Trumpet Snails may help. They burrow in the dirt pulling nutrients down and also can help keep it broken up to release gases. They move so slow the cap should be able to collapse behind them as they surface, keeping the soil trapped below.


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## Pheesh!!

Next time I think I will have to soak for about 3-4 weeks. During which time I will pour off the muddy water/floaters every 3-4 days. And then I will follow up with a few weeks of the wet dry method. For this tank I did the wet dry method in the middle of summer for about 6 weeks. I would have thought it would do the trick but the MGOC must be that rich. I also did filter out all of the big chunks of wood/sticks. Based on the way this tank has gone it seems like a much better idea to over-prepare the soil rather than under-prepare and to have to deal with the headache.


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## Pheesh!!

BTW, I appreciate the MTS reference. I was always curious about their burrowing and potential release of dirt. Now that you say they move slow enough it shouldn't be a problem. As for the 50/50 mix, this is something I never read about prior to today and yesterday. Actually mixing my flourite INTO the dirt as well would have been a better idea rather than just a cap. Next time I will try a 50/50 mix in addition to a flourite cap. I think I will stick with flourite for the most part as my cap. How deep of a dirt layer would you say is necessary in order to accomplish good growth? For my tank I may have been too aggressive and put too much dirt. The front is about 1.5 inches with about 3 inches in the back, then the 1.5 inch cap over the entire tank. However, my tank does not sem to be going completely anaerobic on me


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## Michael

Pheesh, I think you will get many answers in the sticky "Suitable soils for the Walstad method" in the El Natural forum.

It is very difficult to diagnose tank problems over the internet! But the two things that stand out to me are the Miracle Grow soil and the depth of the soil. Your preparation of the soil sounds good, but you may have missed something in that process. MGOC is really hot, as gardeners say, and the excess nutrients and 100% organic matter composition are contributing to your problems.

The soil is too deep. IMO, the maximum depth of the soil should be 1.5", with 1" being a good choice for beginners, no matter how large the tank is. If you want to create topography, do it with the cap, or build up inert layers (rocks, tile, bags of gravel) directly on the bottom of the tank and put the soil over them. The depth of soil, combined with the richness of MGOC, is causing the gas build-up.

Do you smell hydrogen sulfide when the bubbles break the surface? The fact that you aren't having any fish problems suggests that this gas is CO2, not H2S. Some release of CO2 is expected (and beneficial in tanks without CO2 supplementation), but yours is obviously excessive. Soil that is too deep and 100% organic will cause this.

Sorry you are having these problems! I had a similar experience with my first tank. I used MGOC straight from the bag. Then a massive floating driftwood incident right after set up resulted in an emergency re-do, and the soil layer wound up too deep in parts of the tank. I had persistent bubbles from the soil, and some problems with H2S. The tank initially did well for 2 years, but developed more generalized problems after that. I think this was due to excessively anaerobic substrate.


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## Tattooedfool83

I'm having an issue in a 20long I dirted as well. Everything took off great frm the start but has taken a turn for the worse. I stopped dosing ferts and have been poking the substrate but it just continues to release bubbles, but in only one area of the tank. The strng algae and brown algae are just gross looking. Very disappointed in how this tank turned. Funny thing is I used the same soil and safe t sorb to cap it. But I did a layer of safer sorb, very small layer then the soil then more safe t sorb. And I think this is where the problem is from. I'm just waiting it out and continue water changes, I'm hoping it will just balance out with time.


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## Window7

I rip/tear down all my soil tank ^^ just go with sand or any type of sub and use root tab or diy root tab.


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## Aquaticz

I recently set up to dirt tanks 55 and a 40. The 40 gallon seems to be doing quite well the 55 on the other hand is full diatoms some blue-green algae and all looks kind of crappy. However in doing some reading it has been suggested that it takes a month or two for the tank to settle down so I'm going wait it out. Additionally I'm going to start fertilizing again and adding CO2 if that doesn't do it nothing will. 

I did mineralize the soil and it took me a number of weeks to do so I hate to think what would happen if I just dumped it in the tank..... I doubt it would be good


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## Pheesh!!

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the reference. I'll check out the thread. I also saw your thread asking other members to post their soil experience with specific soil substrates. Having used the same soil that you did I didn't add my experience, but you were able to read it here regardless. 

Based upon the smell (rotten eggs) as the gas breaks the surface of the water I think it's pretty safe to assume it is hydrogen sulfide. I have really been on top of it ever since I lost those corys so I have yet to lose any others. Hopefully some of the bubbles are jsut CO2. I read your exp. with MGOC, but have you ever tried Scotts top soil? If so, how did you find it in comparison to MGOC? I may go with this soil next time, or just retry the MGOC with max 1.5 like you said.


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## Michael

I have tried Scott's, and think it is better simply because it isn't as rich. The bag I got had fewer large pieces of wood than MGOC. I still think Scott's should be prepared in the same way as MGOC (mineralize or soak and drain), and mixed with Safe-T-Sorb or similar material.


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## ashfaqe

For what its worth, I used MGOC in my 29 gallon a couple years ago, and all I did was sift the soil to get rid of the bark and twigs. It also helped make it light and airy. I had about 1-1.5" and capped it with an equal amount of Flourite Black. I also sprinkled in a little bit of Laterite and Osmocote on the soil layer before adding the Flourite.

I planted moderately heavy from the start, and I added some rasboras a couple days after set up. I did several large water changes in the next few days and slowly made them less frequent as I noticed the tannins returning less and less. 

That tank ran almost perfectly for a little over a year. No smells, no signs of algae, and my plants grew substantially to the point that it was a very jungly tank.

I did not run C02. I used root tabs several months into the setup, mostly because I was curious about them.

The tank developed some hair algae after I got a little too confident about only doing water changes every few months. I didn't have as much time for tank maintenance towards the end and it basically got away from me.

Anyways, my first several months went almost too smoothly for my first dirted tank, and I hardly did anything to prepare the soil.


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## Phil Edwards

pheesh,

Along with using a nutrient rich soil, it sounds to me like you didn't mineralize it properly. Simply soaking it and keeping it submerged for a long period will not do the trick. If you do that you'll end up with a massive anaerobic mess with little in the way of organic matter mineralization. If you want a well processed/mineralized/matured soil it's necessary to sieve all of the large particles out and do 3-4 (at least) complete saturation/drying cycles. 

Aerobic (oxygen-based) metabolism is much more efficient than anaerobic (no oxygen) metabolism. The idea is to saturate it so things leech out of the organic matter in the soil so the bugs can start using it up. Air drying then encourages anaerobic microbes to start breaking down more complex chemicals and organic particles. Repeating this cycle 3-4 times, more if you're patient enough, should be enough to break down the majority of the real nasty stuff. 

Mixing in Turface, up to 50/50, is really useful for decreasing the bulk density, minimizing compaction, and increasing penetrability by roots. Those are all really important qualities to consider. Adding the clay really only acts as a binder, which is important, but it doesn't add a significant source of iron. I've grown hundreds of plants in straight out nutrient rich unmineralized topsoil from dried fish hatchery ponds; 100% clay, and clay with Turface and a couple different organic amendments; all with inorganic fertilizer addition, including iron. None of the clays exhibited significant signs of iron reduction (grey regions in the mix) whereas the topsoil had strong and significant characteristics of a reducing and anaerobic environment after 5-10 weeks, depending on the species I was growing.


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## yunney

Would introducing more active carbon into the filter work for this case?


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