# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Japanese samurai sword



## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

these swords were a magnificent copy(with some minor alterations...) from the portuguese XVI Sword, one of the best swords in Europe in those days...(they acquire the knowledge to make those swords from some portuguese sword maker)

Today we even call CATANA to samurai like swords...

nevertheless Japanese propaganda did the rest, creating a myth...









Japanese didn't stop here with the copies...
the Portuguese rifle, and some other XVI century Portuguese weapons were also copied.

Japanese improve all the products they cloned...
there is nothing wrong in making great copies!

but I guess it's about time they start producing something new!









Is the Nature aquarium style something new?
Or AGAIN another copy from another culture...









[This message was edited by António Vitor on Mon March 01 2004 at 06:05 PM.]


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

these swords were a magnificent copy(with some minor alterations...) from the portuguese XVI Sword, one of the best swords in Europe in those days...(they acquire the knowledge to make those swords from some portuguese sword maker)

Today we even call CATANA to samurai like swords...

nevertheless Japanese propaganda did the rest, creating a myth...









Japanese didn't stop here with the copies...
the Portuguese rifle, and some other XVI century Portuguese weapons were also copied.

Japanese improve all the products they cloned...
there is nothing wrong in making great copies!

but I guess it's about time they start producing something new!









Is the Nature aquarium style something new?
Or AGAIN another copy from another culture...









[This message was edited by António Vitor on Mon March 01 2004 at 06:05 PM.]


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

A excellent site to make a bridge beteween portuguese and american history...

NINIGRET - A PORTUGUESE FORT

I am sure this was made by some proud portuguese descendent...yap I was right...








Index of this stuff
Portuguese Pilgrims and Dighton Rock


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

After watching the oscars yesterday, I realized that there is a people (the Portuguese)that did make a profound impact on the human history, and they are allways forgotten by hollywood.

"Hollywood" is the motor for the new world culture, I guess that there are cultures and cultures...and there is history and history...









all the movies from Hollywood I see with old ships have:

airates
b:english sailors
c:french sailors
d:spanish sailors

that is annoying to me...


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## mm12463 (Mar 5, 2004)

Sunday night I was watching something on the History Channel or maybe A&E and it was about the Japanese Samurai. And it talked about how a boat wrecked on one of the islands and brought the first firearm to them. I believe they said it was some Portuguese explorers that where in China and wrecked in Japan because of a storm.

Mike
http://fish.silver-fox.us


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Yap Mike, but it was not only the rifle,there was more stuff...

No one wants to comment the site I mentioned?

Some of the north american eastern coast indian, would have portuguese blood...
even some words they used are portuguese words (if we bellieve on that site).

The portuguese usually colonized the world in different ways than the rest of europe, they usually mixed with local peoples...

there are hundreds of extinct indian tribes "that live" happily in the "white" brazilian blood, even those who have blond hair...

Portugal allways had lack of people to do colonization in the standard way, for instance 50% of azores islands were colonized by some flemish families (belgians who run way from the local dictator, the smart king of portugal offered them fredoom in azores (no one would want to go there...there was no humans in Azores...)

We had allways lack of man (and women), the funny stuff is that, we with those smart strategies did what some countries were incapable of...we even defeated the french, dutch and the spanish in a territory many many times bigger than our one (brazil), it were not only the portuguese....it were the mixed indians (and pure indians) and the portuguese...









In malaysia (malacca) a 50 person army (the majoraty of this army was mixed race), allmoust defeated more than 2500 dutch man...
The dutch after this inevitable win, even offered a honourable funeral to the portuguese captain...

Regards!
António Vitor

[This message was edited by António Vitor on Tue March 02 2004 at 05:22 PM.]


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Well I can't add to the Portuguese in America but can share my own family history. I was born in Macao, which was a Portuguese colony near Hong Kong. My family settled in Macao in the early 1600's and eventually moved to Shanghai. 

One of my ancestors founded the capital of Mozambique named Lorenceo Marques (my sirname). Those names changed when most of Africa went through their great upheaval. 

The Marques family were aristocrats dating to the late 1500's or early 1600's. My ancestor was one of 5 siblings and happened to be a drunken good-for-nothing, lol. So to save embarassment at Court the family bought him a merchant ship and had him sail into the sunset. The salt air cleared his head and he went on to build great wealth for himself and the King and Queen. They were so happy with these good deeds they granted him additional titles. The ancient Marques family castle in Lisbon is now a museum of ancient coaches owned by the Portuguese royalty. 

In the course of finally getting to Macao the family left members to settle in Africa and India. To this day we still make food that originated in Goa (sp?), a part of India settled by the Portuguese. There is a close link between the Indian and Macao cultures. 

With Macao being only 4 square miles the family eventually moved to Shanghai. My parents were born and raised there at the time depected in the second Indiana Jones movie, lol. They described life in Shanghai exactly as the movie portrays. Unfortunately, Communism changed the course of their lives making them move back to Macao, which was still a Portuguese colony. I was born the youngest of four siblings and eventually settled here in the States.

My mother's family is Russian and my grandmother was smuggled out of Russia at the start of the 1917 revolution. Her mother was the Lady-in-Waiting to the last Czarina and also a member of the Romanoff family....that is another story!

Regards,
Carlos Marques 

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that wa


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

I already said it to you, Marques!
I would love to have a similar family history...

hum....Is there anyone living near this tower?
located in Touro Park (Newport, Rhode Island)
tower

I would love to hear what happened to this situation:


> quote:
> 
> (1) Many years ago there was a large board near the Newport Tower informing the visitors of the 3 theories: Viking, Arnold, and Portuguese.
> 
> ...


That very strange...looks like there are some people that do want a more "pleasant" history...
vickings is great, Arnold is also good, not the portuguese...who are those portuguese?

maybe this theory sound less important for some people....
Vickings were mighty warriors!
that's cool...
look how many movies featured the mighty vickings...









Portuguese endeavor was much much before columbus...(and after)... we reached indic ocean before columbus, a person you glorify because he discovered America...ya right...were he learnt how to navigate?









what we did BEFORE ANYONE else, was to reach point B from point A and to return to point A from point B, to do that at increasing distances it was required knowledge, to know ocean currents, predominants winds, how to measure speed (there were no clocks in those times to calculate longitude, it was very difficult), in the XIV century, europe only knew a part of the northern atlantic ocean and the mediterranean, for more than 100 years before columbus, we collected knowledge, and discovered most of Africa...
If it were not because of the portuguese there would not be a columbus. that is a FACT.

Portuguese journalist (reporting from the U.S.) sometimes recreates themselfs... asking to the common American people where is Portugal...

here are the usually answers:

South America
Spain
don't know

a minority got the right answer.
that is a BIG pity...

[This message was edited by António Vitor on Wed March 03 2004 at 01:52 AM.]


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Even Carl Sagan _(A great man of this world, I praise those cosmos series...the best TV show I ever saw! I was very sad when I hear that we lost him to this world...)_

even he, a kowledge scientist got something VERY VERY WRONG...
He mentioned on the book "cosmos" (and I think in the cosmos series, not sure) the wonderfull of the Dutch achivements, how THEY WERE THE FIRST EUROPEANS TO REACH THE SOUTHERN ATLANTIC in the XVII century, for that the dutch people required astronomic knowledge....he went on and on...

well the portuguese arrived in the southern ocean in the XV century....much before columbus or the dutch...

If intelectuals do not get it right... why I would recriminate Hollywood for forgetting 200 years of the world history. It was the begining of the world economy, but I guess some "master and commander" might sell more tickets...

If someone don't like what I am saying...please forgive my patriotism...









Regards!
António Vitor


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

My father used to sound just like you Antonio, lol!

Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Even today historic views and facts are changing all the time, and what is really remarkable is what nationality can do to history...
shaping and distorting the true History...

France doesn't consider the napoleon rule of europe like the english do...even today...

If it weren't all the italian descendents in America, and columbus would be a minor figure in the american history.

We can easily see that, before the italian emmigrants arrived, columbus was a forgotten figure in the America history.

well he didn't landed on present american soil.









If more americans or britains knew who was Henry the navigator (Infante Henriques, he lived on the XIV century), then most certain the historic facts would take a dramatic change.

In reality he was half british, his mother was from the british royal house, and Henry the navigator (he didn't navigate at all) was the most important figure in the discovery age, He promoted the first portuguese explorations, without him, the portuguese might only sailed for fish...nothing more.

that is remarkable because, after 200 years of ocean rule, the portuguese were being copied, and eventually that brought the english empire (and the USA).

If more knew that this henry was half anglo-saxon, columbus day would be a lot less important.
(that would be bad for all italo-americans of course)

those ties with the british crown also tied up the Portuguese crown with the dannish crown, the consequence of that was some joint Portuguese/Dannish enterprises in the northern Atlantic Ocean, to find a obscure Vicking territory to the west.

One of those voyages brought Corte-real and a dannish explorer (don't know the name of the dannish explorer..sorry) together, and it's allmoust certain that they did rediscovered greenland and canada. They found that the vicking were all gone...

The city that brought that dannish explorer to the world also have a different version of the XV century history. The people of that city built a monument saying who discovered America...It was not Columbus for them.

I really want everybody's comment on this...

[This message was edited by António Vitor on Sat March 06 2004 at 06:24 AM.]


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## Hanzo (Mar 9, 2004)

The Japanes Sword was a legend long before the Portuges people made it across the sea to Japan. The brought firearms, but japanes swordsmith had refined the art of making sword long before this. I have been a praticioner of japanes swords art for some year, and read much into the history of the sword.


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

they did have swords, but the steel was inferior...
what they copied was the portuguese steel manufacturing...to produce better swords.
(macau portuguese territory was very close..there were many outputs to the japanese civilization from there)

More than 100 words are still used in today's japanese language that come from the portuguese language.

The samurai period happeared only after the portuguese arrived...there were no samurai, at least with the meaning we give the word "samurai" today...

the bushido way was only "invented" in the Tokugawa period (1601-1868), so after the portuguese...
Today we in the west praise many thing from the Orient (only from japan), but I do believe that the chinese civilization were allways a step forward the japanese of those days.
In the art of warfare and in other topics...

It was the chinese that brought to the west many inventions...not the japanese...


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## Hanzo (Mar 9, 2004)

I'm sorry, but your history fact are all wrong. I have been a practicing diffrent kinds of bushido for over twenty years, been to Japan, speak some of the language myself, been studying the works of japanes swordsmiths and handled the real thing. The samurai was a realty long before the portuguese sett shore to Japan. It was during the Sengogu (sp?) periode, when the diffrent Daimjo's was batteling for rule of Japan the Portuguese first arrived. The Japanes and the Portuguese both used one another during this time, and the brought stuff like christianity and the firearms to japan during this time. Oda Nobunaga was about the be the shogun of Japan, but was assasinated by his own advisor, and Tokugawa became the Shogun. After this the portuguese was chased out of Japan, some burned alived, and christianity and much of the other stuff was banned! And the japanes sword metalurgy (sp?) is still today considered on the the most advanced. Even though I have read several books on the art of japanes swordsmaking, I have yet to read a singel word about spanish og portugues steel beeing used.

You are correct in one thing though, the chinese was ahead of the japanes in many things, and indeed, the japanes sword we today call a Katana (with a K) is based upon a chines sword.


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

"I have yet to read a singel word about spanish or portugues steel beeing used."

that is normal...

the japanese are too much proud to grant a portuguese influence on their's swords...








there are other stuff that is more obvious that they are not capable to hide...

they even thought that americans were inferiors:
"they would won the WW2 easily against the west and americans...easily..."
that way of thinking is still there!

Samurai were not a reality before the portuguese, at least with the meaning you give the word today (war lord), samurai before the Tokugawa period, were kind of war slaves drawn from the common people, the low rankings of the japanese society.

Yes the portuguese were expelled, not that there were many portuguese in there (maybe a few hundreds), but because christianity was getting bigger and bigger in japan, and some of the leaders were afraid to lose power because of the democratic thinking of christianity (equality to all man).

The portuguese who where killed were only missionaires (maybe even less than 100), there were a LOT more japanese christian followers killed than missionares...thoushands and thoushands of japanese were killed because they did practice a different religion...too much democratic to the japanese society of those days...

the missionaires were not only from portugal, they were italian, spanish, french etc...

The other portuguese that arrived in japan were only trading, they get out of japan long before the missionaires (trade was the only thing besides spreading christianity that portuguese did in japan...there were no conquests).

It was the US in the XIX century that forced the japanese to open themselfs to the exterior.

that closeness to the outside (after the portuguese), is still there...although there is a new "radical" japanese generation, that might bring something new...

today japanese education system is still an arcaic fundamentalist form of education, innovation is strongly repressed, if you disagree with the teacher, then you will suffer...
that is why they never invented anything, although they were allways capable and knowledge people...but no innovations...
(the superior must not be contested, that feudalism is still there not only in education)

I am not sure of what I am gonna say, but I might be right if I told you that Norway did produced more new stuff to science than japan in 2003...









About portuguese swords:
It was one of the best steel in europe...
but there were also other great steel producers in europe, in spain mainly in TOLEDO, it was produced a magnificent sword!
the Toledo swords was impressive.

Yes, the japanese sword had great chinese influence, and was there before the portuguese arrived (I never said otherwise), but today japanese sword would not be that great if the portuguese never did get there...









Because of the closeness of japan, the artesan way to make a sword was not forgotten (it was forgotten in Iberia, that is why you don't hear much about it...), there were no industrial steel in japan until XIX century, so it is more "fresh" in japan...Not because the swords were better, but because they were still being produced in the XX century is why you still read about it...









you said that KATANA is how we call it today...

There is no 'K' used in the portuguese language, and 'C' and 'K' have the same sound when used, Katana is how anglo-saxons call it.

I am liking a lot this conversation that I am having with you...
né (portuguese word, still used in many countries, means agreement)

Arigato (that might come from the portuguese Obrigado...)

Regards!
António Vitor

[This message was edited by António Vitor on Fri March 12 2004 at 03:53 AM.]


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Please don't think that I would not like stuff that arrives from there...

Japan is still great on my eyes, but not that great as some of us see it...


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

mmm samurai does not have the meaning "warlord" and it never has. just wanted to clear that up. before the meiji era, they were japan's version of knights. they certainly weren't upper class, but they weren't lower class either. they had their own class, the samurai class, and were treated fairly well by their lords (always keep the people fighting for you happy). when the samurai caste was disbanded, there were renegade trouble makers but... for the most part, i don't think anybody in america thinks of samurais as "war lords" at all.

anyway, it really doesn't matter where the japanese got their technology from, because most likely, it was not completely developed on their own. that is a fairly safe assumption. the great thread of truth about the japanese is that they assimilate information and technology, and attempt to improve upon it. China had already been a power for many centuries and japan was just some savage little island. the japanese borrowed things from the chinese, the portuguese, the americans, and everyone else they came into contact with. japan has ALWAYS been a fairly arrogant country, but only because technically they had never been conquered. in fact, the mongols sent two or three landing parties to japan, and all of them sank on the way... if people think that japan has been leading the way in all of this great stuff, they are wrong... japan wasn't even a real power in world war II... it wasn't until the past 20 years that japan has actually become a real power... and it is just the culmination of centuries of hard work. america was a backwards dump until not so long ago







not every "great" civilization has to be "great" forever to be considered "great."









oh and antonio... just to make you happy... i know exactly where portugal is







not all americans are dumb! i actually wonder if our general lack of understanding of history takes root in the fact that we have only been around for 200+ years... i think to the common american, anything that happened before 1776 is "ancient history" even though there are civilizations like china that have been around since... what? 2000 bce or something? or was it 4000bce? i can't remember, it's "ancient history" ;-)

JP


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> lower class either. they had their own class, the samurai class, and were treated fairly well by their lords (always keep the people fighting for you happy). when the samurai caste was disbanded, there were renegade trouble makers but... for the most part, i don't think anybody in america thinks of samurais as "war lords" at all.


I thought they were paid assasins or soldiers.

I think the history of cultures is fascinating. At one time I was interested in the history of the early north american north eastern indians. I grew up in Massachuessetts, and wanted to know more about the indians that all but disappeared. For a couple years I studied the history of all the New England tribes, and I have many books on the subject. The eastern indians were most infuenced by the French, British, and Dutch. I do not think the Portugese or Spanish ever reached that part of the country.

South America is a different story. I can not remember the name of the movie, it had Robert Dinero in it, but according to this movie the Spanish and Portugeese made slaves of the native people and only the missionaries were a safe haven for the natives.

Now my interest lies in the ancient history of Europe. The Europian tribes at the time of the Roman empire and before. The Visigoths, the german tribes, the huns, the Anglos, Saxons, the Vikings...ancient France. These ancient cultures shaped the world. Xeena and Hercules! I love stories and movies on ancient cultures.


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

samurai = noble (for the most part) warriors following a strict code (known as bushido). could be hired, but mostly on a protection-type basis.

ninjas = deadly assassins, hired thugs, etc.

BIG difference. an extremely good (and famous) movie (albeit B&W) is called "Seven Samurai" (shichi nin no samurai. made by kurosawa... if's about 3 hours long, but absolutely wonderful. shows the end of the samurai era, how they were respected, but also feared. kurosawa also makes a few other movies about samurais if you wish to watch. long, but they are wonderful. and if you want to know how famous kurosawa and his movies were, all you have to do is listen to Bare Naked Ladies. "one week" has a nice little line that goes:

Like Kurosawa I make mad films
'Kay I don't make films
But if I did they'd have a samurai

:-D yes... kurosawa was good.

JP


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## mm12463 (Mar 5, 2004)

The Mission - pretty good movie. Entertaining.


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

that kind of movies (the mission) don't show what it did really happened...

Old Brazil was different from the old USA in a lot of things...
first there were a lot less genocides...Even some Indian tribes helped the portuguese to won some wars (against french and dutch).

the portuguese allways intermarried with the locals (something that allmoust didn't happened in the old US), and that is what the modern brazilian is...
something indian something white (mostly from the portuguese) and something african.

I do believe we had to have a more tolerant society in MANY REGARDS, to produce the typical Brazilian...

when some American portray the south american history..allways fail deeply. (like the old cowboy vs indian movies)
Btw the missionaires in Brazil were mostly Portuguese...

Regards!
António Vitor


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Now my interest lies in the ancient history of Europe. The Europian tribes at the time of the Roman empire and before. The Visigoths, the german tribes, the huns, the Anglos, Saxons, the Vikings...ancient France. These ancient cultures shaped the world. Xeena and Hercules! I love stories and movies on ancient cultures.


The most important influence (at least in Europe) was the Ice Age period and posterior colonization of "no-ice" land from the 3 Ice age Refugee...

that shaped Europe ...

Outside their's territories (visigoths, german tribes, the huns, the anglos, the saxons, the vickings, etc..) produced nothing whatsoever!

they were engulfed by the roman culture...









not even a significant blood imput into other european regions...

what they did?
Opressed the locals (like the romans did), but the locals prevailed...and the genetics tests we can make today are proof of that!

Ice age division









after Ice age









after agricultural revolution









Even today this regions don't have a significan genetic input from outside these regions

what are these maps refering to?

this are the directions the 3 haplogroups mutations in Europe after the Ice age take...

I think it's another genetic marker, but it's excellent for watching migration inside europe.

all the 3 haplogroups exists in any given european population 
Maybe because of foreign invasions?

Nevertheless the genetics of the majoratity allways (with local mutations) stayed the same since Ice age...so we can testify even today the Ice age migrations in Europe...We cannot testify the same for more recent invasions...
that is curious...








this are european haplogroups, there are others in different regions.

this usually receives mutations over time, so if most european have R1b, then we are all cousins with an common ancestor of 10.000 years 









http://home.comcast.net/~whitathey/haplogroups.htm

It's interesting to see that more melanin or less melanin in the hair or skin, don't tell anything about genetic afinities...

I guess a more darker person in the north would get harder times...
not producing enough vitamin D, growth problems, health problems, and Darwin Law did the rest...

Regards!
António Vitor


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> japan has ALWAYS been a fairly arrogant country, but only because technically they had never been conquered. in fact, the mongols sent two or three landing parties to japan, and all of them sank on the way...


Why the germans didn't conquered England in the second world war...yap it was the ISLAND EFFECT.









don't mean anything, even today Islands are easier to defend for...

Regards!
António Vitor


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Islands aren't easier to defend. Taiwan was first conquered by the Dutch in the 15th or 16th century, followed by the Japanese in the late 19th. It all depend on the people and their willingness to adopt to the more modern cultures, which oftentimes include military change. Guns vs. swords; cannons vs arrows. Need I say more???

Whatever happened in the past stays in the past. Let by gones be by gone. Ultimately, none of us has any right to say what really 'happened' back then. Were we there in 19th century? Were we there in 2000 BC? Not to tick anyone off, but you know what I mean. What we SHOULD be worried about and focusing our energies on is in improving the world which we live in right now! Not 10 years ago, not 100 years ago, nor 1000 years ago. Thanks, and it feels much better now after I letted out my 50 cents

Paul


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Ok SurWrathful, I guess we must think also in the future!

but...the past should not be forgotten.
it's the best way to prevent future mistakes!

Taiwan might got easily defeated because of a tremendous war technology deficit, but, two sides being equal the islanders wins!

Regards!
António Vitor


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

I do agree that we all should learn from the past, but come on, how often is this being done? As we debate fervently at this moment, there are still wars and battles going on all over the world. Arnold Toynby(if I got his name right) once said: 

"The only thing men has learned from the history is that men can never learn from it"

Education is very important, however, there will always be a part of our human nature, the ugly and brutal side, that will never truly go away, even as we advance into the next century. All things lead to chaos and entropy; it is the laws of nature and science.

Paul


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> I think the history of cultures is fascinating. At one time I was interested in the history of the early north american north eastern indians. I grew up in Massachuessetts, and wanted to know more about the indians that all but disappeared. For a couple years I studied the history of all the New England tribes, and I have many books on the subject. The eastern indians were most infuenced by the French, British, and Dutch. I do not think the Portugese or Spanish ever reached that part of the country.


You are not right Robert, look at azores location!

Do you really think that the first ones that circum-navigate the world (A portuguese sailor with a spanish fleet) in the XVI century, did not take a very very short voyage and land in north america?
that really don't make any sense!

look at some of the north america toponimes.

Labrador (man who works on a farm)
Terra nova (the name was after translated to newfoundland)

I guess it was not a state investment to colonize north america (there were more "important" lands in east and south, in those days of course), but I believe some sailors arrived there and intermixed with the locals.
There are historic monument evidences...


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

there is some afinity with Cod fish and the Portuguese...
Cod fish saved a starving population some centuries ago!

since the early XVI century, a lot of Portuguese fisherman were capturing these Cod fish in those regions...
(newfoundland and labrador, when I said a lot of fishermans I mean that...thousands of them), I guess they did contact a lot of those natives of those regions...

there aren't any Cod fish in portugal...
but nevertheles we have 10000 ways to make cod fish!









Robert, books don't tell all the truth only the author interpretation, of course here in Portugal we have different perspectives and different books...

http://envstudies.brown.edu/thesis/2003/eric_brazer/Early%20History%20of%20Cod.htm
"This Newfoundland soon became a major base in the cod fishery. By 1508, 10% of fish sold in Portuguese ports was Newfoundland salt cod""

http://www.malhatlantica.pt/teresadeca/ticarnival2002/curiosities.htm
"During the 15th century the coasts of Labrador and Newfoundland were frequently visited by Portuguese navigators and fishermen"


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

In "the perfect storm" movie, I saw some of the fallen fisherman names...
some were portuguese names.


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Interesting stuff here
http://www.roperld.com/graphics/Pops72Phylo.jpg

here you can see that those barbarians invasions and even the roman invasion didn't do a thing in the genetic constitution of Europe...









Cornish close relatives to the south portuguese?
Scottish close relatives to north portuguese?

Very interesting indeed!


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

STEPHEN STEWART
this was taken from this site:
http://www.theherald.co.uk 
not there anymore...

_
DNA suggests the Celts held their ground

Scientists shatter Anglo-Saxon myth, writes STEPHEN STEWART

THE first analysis of DNA passed from father to son across the UK has shattered the Anglocentric view of early British history, it emerged yesterday.

For decades, historians have believed that successive waves of invaders, such as the Anglo-Saxons, drove out the indigenous population of the British Isles, labelled Celts, pushing them to the fringes of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

However, work by a team of scientists on the Y chromosome, which is passed from father to son, has shown the native tribes left their genetic stamp throughout the UK and not only in the "Celtic fringe".

The evidence suggests that Anglo-Saxons tend to dominate British history merely because they kept better written records than their indigenous counterparts.

A large number of native people remained in England and central Ireland and were never entirely replaced by the invaders, often surviving in high proportions throughout the British Isles, according to the research by Professor David Goldstein, Dr Jim Wilson, and a team of experts at University College London.

The study was based on comparing Y chromosomes from Britain with the invaders' Y chromosomes, represented by descendants of Danes, Vikings (in Norway) and Anglo-Saxons (in Schleswig-Holstein, northern Germany).

Dr Jim Wilson, a population geneticist from Orkney who is now based at University College London, said: "The recent paper was based on a study that I carried out on Orkney to tell if the inhabitants were descended from Vikings.

"It found the genetic profile was halfway between Norway and Ireland, suggesting that the Vikings did have a significant effect on the population.

"In the new study, samples were collected from the whole of Britain in a grid pattern. The study contradicts the notion of the complete replacement of the indigenous people by incoming Anglo-Saxons.

"The data set doesn't show that but illustrates that the English are largely indigenous in origin. We wanted to look at whether culture and genetics go together.

"In Orkney and Shetland they spoke Norwegian until the 1700s and there we have a strong case for genes and culture going hand-in-hand."

Dr Wilson and his colleagues established that Y chromosomes of Britain's indigenous populations were almost identical to those of the Basques, who live on the French-Spanish border and speak a language unrelated to the Indo-European tongues that swept into Europe 8000 years ago.

"We tended to avoid the term 'Celts' as there is some debate about it. For example, the Irish and Welsh are indistinguishable from the Basques, who are the earliest indigenous inhabitants of Europe," he said.

"The Basques were in Europe before farming and before the development of Indo-European languages such as those spoken by the people labelled Celts."

The indigenous population, genetically very close to the Basques, must also be drawn from the original Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe.

They are possibly the first modern inhabitants of Britain, who settled the islands about 10,000 years ago.

As well as the Vikings' genetic trail in Orkney, a centre of Viking activity from 800-1200, many men in York and east England carry Danish Y chromosomes but there was little sign of Anglo-Saxon heritage in south England, once believed to have been heavily colonised.

Cultural evolution

The notion there is a specific history of the Celts, as opposed to the individual histories of the Irish, Welsh and Scots, is a recent phenomenon.

Between the fall of the Roman Empire and circa 1700, "Celtic" was used only to describe the ancient Gauls of France and related continental peoples.

The conventional view has been that Celts shared certain cultural traits such as related languages; they were also all non-literate and non-urban.

The alternative view is that great differences occurred between so-called Celtic cultures. For example, Druidic cults may have been confined to the British Isles and much of Gaul, and were possibly unknown among most of the continental tribes called Celts in the Iron Age.

-June 25th _

that is what I said, there is too much emphasis on the "barbarians", when they didn't do what some historians want you to believe...


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