# First discovery of Walstad tanks...



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi everyone,

I just joined the forum after reading about El Natural tanks for a couple of weeks, and I have some questions about a small 10 gal tank I'd like to set up...

So, at the moment I have a fully cycled (but uninhabited, bar one strange snail) 10 gal tank, no fish or plants, only a small handful of gravel and a little sponge filter running it. My plan to re-do this tank was to save half of the water and the gravel, empty the tank and give it a good clean (not too good, but I have been "feeding" it with flake food which has melted into a mess on the bottom), add an inch of topsoil, an inch of gravel (plus the old handful of gravel) and then plant it out with java moss, java fern, possibly some hair grass, hornwort and water wisteria. I was planning on setting the tank up next to a window - it is very bright in that position. No direct sunlight, but very bright nonetheless.. and also supplementing the sunlight with a 60w compact fluorescent bulb (not an aquarium bulb - just a normal fluorescent bulb in an adjustable lamp)... how does that sound for the initial set up? I'd like to put guppies in the tank also, and I was thinking that once the plants got a little more established and the tank settled down, I'd add 5 or so every few weeks. I've read online that you can keep 20 -25 guppies per 10 gallon tank, but this seems to be an awful lot to me - what would you guys recommend? Oh, and also - is it worth running the old filter on the tank for the first week or so just to cycle the tank, or do you think the old gravel (there is only a handful) and water will be enough?

I'm sorry this is such a long post, but I have one more question! I also have a 35 gal goldfish tank currently, which has a huge canister filter, two air stones and a two foot light, double.. tubes.. which are 18 w each. Is this enough, or too much light for this tank? They are on for about 10 hours a day, and all I can grow is water wisteria and some very sick vals - however, the plants are covered in algae! I have given up fertilising this tank for now, and it just has plain gravel... what can I do to reduce the algae? Currently this tank has two 3 inch goldfish, and three 1 1/2 inch goldfish in it - two of these smaller ones are feeders which will go into an outside water garden half-barrel thing, and the other three are fancies.............. so apart from my algae question I wanted to know, would it be possible to ever set this 35 gal tank up using the El Natural method as well? Would I have to add the soil or could I just use gravel for this tank? Since goldfish are so messy I thought it would probably not be possible to run the tank without any water movement or airstones, but if I figure out how to grow lovely plants (the goldfish, amazingly, leave the plants alone) would it be possible to make this tank totally natural apart from the light?

I'm sorry that was so long, thank you for any help!
Bis


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

the 10 gallon.
First put your soil on some kind of flat surface and let it air out overnite. That'll help gas out ammonia.

>java moss, java fern, hornwort 
The hornwort is good because it's a fast growing floating plant that will help suck up nutrients while the rooted plants are getting established.

>possibly some hair grass, and water wisteria.
I haven't had great luck with hairgrass. e tennellus has worked better for me. wysteria is fine. I'll add some other rooted plants. Crypts seem to do well in my NPTs.

IMO 6 wpg plus indirect sunlight would be too much light. I'd cut it down to 2 or 3 wpg max.

You may or may not see ammonia or nitrIte. It depends on how rich the soil is. If your soil is good, the tank should be instantly cycled without your existing filter. If it's a bit rich, you can just wait it out and it will resolve on its own.

Re the goldie tank. 
How many wpg is that?
What kind of algae are you seeing?
I'd go with plants potted in soil. I have not had good luck with goldies in a NPT.

Here was my 55 gallon goldie tank with potted plants. and here's an article on potting plants in soil.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi Betty,

Thank you so much for your reply. Your goldfish tank looks beautiful! And those goldfish! You have inspired me - it is such a contrast to my own rather sad looking tank. I wasn't sure though - does that tank have filters? I saw that it has airstones but wasn't sure about filters... are all of those plants (crypts, wisteria, hornwort, java moss/ fern and pygmy chain swords) low light? I thought I'd try the hair grass (at least in the 10 gal - the goldfish pull this up) as it was low light... and thank you, I will try to get less watts for the 10 gal tank..

As for the goldfish tank, that is 36 watts for 35 gallons... so roughly 1 watt, which is very very low I would assume? Add to that the fact that my lights are only 2 feet long while my tank is 3... can I still grow low-light plants, or is this too low for almost anything? I thought the algae on my wisteria was due to too much light, so I reduced the hours it was on for...

To be honest I'm not entirely sure what sort of algae it is, but it is a very very dark green, almost black, and is very difficult to remove from the plants. It covered all but the very newest of leaves.

I will definitely try the potted plant idea - is it ok to bury the pots? Also as for the wisteria (when potted) do you need to repot it often due to growth? (Also, if given the chance, does wisteria grow emergent?)

Thank you so much for your help,
Bis


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yea, with a goldfish tank, you really need good mechanical filtration cuz they're big messy fish. That tank had an undergravel filter hooked to a Penguin 330 Biowheel and a powerhead in the middle of the tank and had a 2nd HOB filter running. I moved the pots around and vacuumed it weekly. I also had a DIY plant filter hooked up. It had a little over 2 wpg over it with a DIY hood with a two bulb shoplight and two screw in compact fluorescent bulbs and the plants were very happy. They're now in a 120. You can see them on my webcam.

Is your goldie tank getting any sunlight?

You don't want a deep layer of gravel. Goldies are messy beasts and it can go anaerobic if you're not careful and produce toxic gasses. I may have a half inch of gravel in my 120. My other goldie tank is bare bottom with HOB filters and potted plants.

You can just top off the wysteria and it will throw off new growth at each node. You can plant the tops as well and they'll root at each node. I don't know whether it'll grow emergent or not.

Naw... 1 wpg isn't too much light. It isn't enough for a lot of plants unless you're supplimenting with sunlight. You could give your plants a bath in peroxide and scrub them gently with a soft brush. I think it's 2ml per gallon, tho I've gone higher with java fern which are pretty tough. I'd do that outside the tank cuz peroxide can mess with your biofilter.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

The plant filter is a very interesting idea! I've never heard of anything like that before. It is a shame that the fish stores around here only recommend the usual filters/heaters/chemicals instead of other alternative methods.

Unfortunately my goldie tank isn't getting any natural sunlight. In the next few weeks the tank is being moved to a brighter room - but they aren't against a window, so I don't suppose that helps much. Is it possible to get two foot fluorescent tubes that are above 18 w? Otherwise perhaps I will need to add another light to this tank... 

I have about 3 or 4 inches of gravel in this tank - way too much I suppose. Oh well. I can use some for the 10 gal tank at least, and some will go into the pots when I get them. 

With my current amazingly high 1 watt per gallon, is there anything at all I can grow? Would java fern or java moss work? Also, since there is so little light in the tank, what do you think is causing the algae? Too many nutrients and not enough plants?

Thank you!
Bis


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

That's way too much gravel. Goldies are messy beasts, so my guess would be excess nutrients and no plants to help suck them up.

Go check out the home improvement store's lighting section. I have 65 watt fluorescent 6500K lights of america flood lights over my goldie tank. Shop lights may also work for you. as would the screw in daylight fluorescent bulbs if you're handy. Did you see the lights over my 125? Those are DIY using pvc and shop lights with the screw in daylight fluorescent bulbs.

at 1 wpg, Java fern, anubias, java moss, maybe crypts should do ok. anacharis, hornwort, frogbit or water lettuce might grow floating.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Alright... I will get rid of some of the gravel into the 10 gal, then the pots, and then if there is still too much I can simply remove some.

I was thinking about adding some shop lights, but the DIY sites I have read haven't been particularly useful. If I used a single three foot fluorescent bulb/fixture in my hood behind my real aquarium lighting, would I need to install a fan/ballast to remove excess heat? (If the lights were not VHO, would excess heat be a problem?)


----------



## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

If you add a 36" NO (normal output) fluorescent tube you won't need a fan


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

How much light would that get you?
I'd shoot for between 2 and 3 watts per gallon.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm not sure - how many watts is a standard daylight bulb? I was planning on going out today to buy the fixture so I will let you know. Also, do you all get algae growing on the cover glass or is it just me?

I also phoned the local fish store to ask about higher wattage bulbs.. and they told me that I didn't need higher wattage, I just needed brighter bulbs, and that if I took mine in to them they could figure out which ones I need to make plants grow.

Sorry, forgot to ask: can you put aquarium bulbs in standard light fixtures?


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Pet store ninnies!

I do get some green algae on the glass tops of my goldie tank. I actually wish green algae would grow more in the goldie tank. It's a good natural food source.

You don't need aquarium bulbs. Look at the home improvement store in the light bulb section. They do have aquarium bulbs there, but I use the daylight bulbs with a color temperature of around 6500K. I don't like 5000K cuz it looks yellow. You could also use the wide-spectrum grow lights, but they're kinda purple and don't put out as much visable light.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I have a bit of green algae in the tank, but mostly it's brown and I just let it cover the back wall of the tank - it's painted black anyway - but the goldfish spend a lot of time trying to eat it.

That is great about the bulbs - I don't like the idea of spending $25 - $30 on an aquarium bulb when I can buy an entire fixture from the hardware store for the same price. Do the daylight bulbs show up the colour of your goldfish well, or do they look washed out?


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

*Another question*

Just wondering about guppies for the new 10 gal tank, when it is eventually set up - Is it possible to keep male and female guppies (with females outnumbering males) together in the tank indefinitely? I'd love to see them breed but I don't want my little tank over run and don't really have the means to set up a second tank if the population grew too much. Does anyone have any experience with this - does the tank manae to strike a balance on its own? (ie, fry being kept in check by parents but a couple surviving in the plants etc... or does this simply not happen?)

Thank you for all your help - I have found this forum to be one of the most useful!


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

They look fine at 6500K. I do have some smaller purplish lights that came in old aquarium hoods that really make the colors pop. I don't know what those old bulbs are or whether they're good for plants.

I don't have any experience with guppies. Guppies breed almost as fast as endlers and in a planted tank my bet is you'd be overrun. Which wouldn't be bad if you had a local pet store who'd take them. Or if you bought slow quality guppies and sold them online.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi Betty,

Wondering if you had any experience with treating ich in goldfish with salt? I've been treating my goldfish for the past week or so, and have brought the salt in the tank up to 0.3%. It seems that the spots disappear (it is a very mild case - have only seen one small spot each time they appear, right on the edge of the fins of one of my new fish... and the spots have always just been on this one fish, it hasn't spread)... and yet they keep coming back after a few days. I'll think it's gone and then one spot will turn up. I have raised the temperature to speed up the ich cycle and have also vacuumed the gravel - is there anything I'm doing wrong or anything else you can think of?


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Are you sure it's ich?
any signs of irritation like flashing, fin flicking, fluffing their gills, etc?
Here's a good article on treating ich with salt.

It could also be breeding stars. tho I wouldn't expect them to go away.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm sure it's ich. The infected fish has been flashing and the spots are on the fins, not the gill plates. That article is the one I originally found when looking up ich, and the one I have used to treat them.

I suppose I will just have to wait it out.


----------



## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

DataGuru said:


> Pet store ninnies!
> You don't need aquarium bulbs. Look at the home improvement store in the light bulb section. They do have aquarium bulbs there, but I use the daylight bulbs with a color temperature of around 6500K. I don't like 5000K cuz it looks yellow. You could also use the wide-spectrum grow lights, but they're kinda purple and don't put out as much visable light.


It may be close to optimal to mix a GroLux with something else in a multi-tube fixture. Good growth results are reported even when mixing with an el-cheapo Cool White tube.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Is it possible to achieve good growth with just el-cheapo bulbs? I don't really like the idea of spending $30 per tube when I can buy an entire fixture for that much...


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Look at the home improvement store in the light bulb section. They do have aquarium bulbs there, but I use the daylight bulbs with a color temperature of around 6500K.


 I was able to find some REALLY nice CF DAYLIGHT BULBS this past summer but am having a hard time finding the same or equivalent ones this winter. (Stinks too because this is the time of year I need them the most.) I am able to find COOL WHITE 6500 K CF bulbs but they have a bluish tint to them. I will use these until I can find the ones I am looking for.

If anyone knows the type of Bulb I am looking for, and where I can find them please let me know. I never expected to have a hard time finding them. It's only been 6 months!

This time of year I usually stock up and purchase about 10 of these at least. I like to have a CF I can use in my tanks AND thoughout the house if I can.

I like DAYLIGHT and not that flourescent look, you know?


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I get great growth with both the screw in fluorescent bulbs, the floodlights and the T12 tubes from home depot. You don't need to spend an arm and a leg to get enough light.

If they're 6500K, they're not cool white.
The wallyword here has some nice lights of america 20 and 25 watt screw in 6500K fluorescent bulbs.


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

I might be sending you some $$$ if I can't find them any other way. Thank you.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Alright, well I am off tomorrow to get some 6500K three foot daylight bulbs - yes? Also thinking of upgrading the (still in the planning stages) 10 gal Walstad to a 20 gal, since I need a q-tank, which is currently the 10 gal. Will a 60w compact fluorescent bulb (in a small non-aquarium overheard desk lamp) plus natural sunlight be enough for this tank?


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

*Lighting can be too much*

I think that 60 watts of CF light (plus sunlight) would be more than you need for a 20 gal. The CF light is very intense. In my book, I made my recommendations for 1-3 watts per gal based on the old T-12 fluorescents. I think that they give off much less than a CF light.

The problem with a lot of light is that _submerged_ plants can't possibly use that much (see figure on page 146 of my book). All excess light does is stimulate algae and waste electricity.

My 20 gal did beautifully with a window light/sunlight and an old-style (T-12) 15 watt bulb overhead.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

In that case, I will switch to less wattage then. Thank you Diana. Also, is it alright if the light comes from above and to the side of the tank? This desk lamp isn't able to sit directly above the tank.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I went to check out the lights today, and managed to get a desk lamp with a 15w compact fluorescent bulb for the 20 gal tank. Unfortunately my local hardware store didn't have any 3 foot fixtures (though I did call to ask them before hand, and they told me they did!) and no 30w 6500K tubes..none in 2 or 3 foot bulbs. Are these common bulbs to buy or are they specialised? I was surprised they didn't have them... but I am hoping to find what I need at the larger stores. Also have not been able to find topsoil... is succent/cacti mix a suitable substitute?


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Also have not been able to find topsoil... is succent/cacti mix a suitable substitute?


 Sure. Use 1 1/2 inches of that to 1 1/2 inches of substrate, gravel or SoilMaster Select. Just know that sometimes if your mix has the white vermiculite or perlite in it, it will float to the top and you will just need to fish that out. Easy to do. A little bit of patience is all that is required.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Excellent, thanks Jimbo.


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Not a problem.

Page 175.

Chapter XI. Practical Aquarium Setup and Maintenance.

Warning. - If you pick up the book to read and/or re-read you will get sucked into it for many hours. 

Easy to get. Great Price. Top middle of this page, and even *I* was able to figure it out. (How to order it, AND track it during shipment. That's fun too. Like Christmas. But you buy it for yourself. :smile: )

Don't forget to post a hoto: if you are able. I would love to see it.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Unfortunately I haven't even read the book yet Jimbo! But I will look into finding a copy at the library. The first Walstad tank I stumbled across was Betty's 20 gal bowfront (I think) with swordtails in it. I thought it was a great idea but was too afraid to try it with my goldfish, since they are so messy/ a little destructive. But of course when I came across the forum (and then figured out that the tank I saw was in fact Betty's) I was sucked into expanding my tank collection again, and so decided to try it with guppies and corys.

If you're interested, this is the tank I am hoping to buy: 
eBay Australia: 2ft Aquarium Fish Tank+ As New Pine Hood&Stand+ Extras (item 120056656054, end time 30-Nov-06 16:36:06 AEDST)
I went to lfs today to check out their tank prices, and they had a small cube aquarium (honestly, around 20cmx20cm) with a bit of coloured gravel and a fake plant for around $70! Ridiculous!

Certainly, I will post pictures when it starts growing. I hope it works - I've never really had great success with plants.


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

You won't believe the price. GREAT BOOK! I will tell you it will be the best $ you invest in your tanks. Kind of like Mel Bartholomew's book on Square Foot Gardening. The Official Site of Square Foot Gardening and Mel Bartholomew, Originator and Author only for aquatic plants. Everything you need to know.

Page 182. "Small 2-5 gal tanks ('Tiny Tanks') are perfect for first-time hobbyists for finding the right plant species, learning to deal with algae problems, etc. Small tanks are also easy to light with one hobbyist reporting excellent plant growth in his 5 gal tank using a 'swing-arm' desk lamp containing a 13 watt flourescent bulb."

There are other options for those of us enjoying the hobby on a budget.

Let us know what works for you.

eBay Australia: 2ft Aquarium Fish Tank+ As New Pine Hood&Stand+ Extras (item 120056656054, end time 30-Nov-06 16:36:06 AEDST) Wow! What a deal! Go for it!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

The square foot gardening sounds similar to Esther Dean's "no dig" gardens.. I love normal gardening as well as aquatic (though I have had more success with normal gardening than aquatic - hoping this approach works!)

Also - is duckweed a good plant to have in the natural aquarium?


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Also - is duckweed a good plant to have in the natural aquarium?


 Yes!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Great! Looks like ebay will be hit hard in the next few days...

EDIT: Managed to pick up an 18 gal for $35!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi, just wondering - is it possible to grow nasturtiums as a floating or emergent plant in the aquarium?


----------



## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

Jimbo205 said:


> BiscayneBoulevard said:
> 
> 
> > Also - is duckweed a good plant to have in the natural aquarium?
> ...


Giant duckweed (Spirodela polyrrhza) is better. You can clear it out without too much effort if you want to. Lesser Duckweed (Lemna minor) can turn into a big mess. 

Diane's book is really good.

re: lighting with daylight tubes. See page 180 of this book. El-cheapo cool white tubes resulted in more plant growth than daylight tubes.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Great.. I was looking at buying some greater duckweed from Ebay (love Ebay) since I don't think the lfs would sell it and don't know where else to get it from.

I really must get my hands on this book...

As for the bulbs, I could combine daylight and el-cheapo white bulbs to get good growth but also a nice look to the aquarium, right?


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Sorry to be asking questions constantly, but do you think I could keep a few fairy shrimp in the 20 gal with guppies and corys? Do you think the guppies would eat them? I haven't been able to find much information on shrimp care unfortunately, but I think fairy shrimp are native to Australia (pinnae sp.) and grow to about an inch in length... I could be completely wrong though!


----------



## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

Shrimp can move pretty fast, so don't think guppies would be much of a theat. Think the threat are fast, more persistant fish such as loaches are more of a threat.

re: bulb combo
You can mix and match you your hearts content. It would probably look better mixing daylight with cool white than all cool white. The eye is of the beholder.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

What about shrimp with a Siamese Fighter? I bought one today on the spur of the moment after seeing the poor thing hiding under a plant in one of those Betta death cups, and he's absolutely covered with ich. Quite active though - I put him in a Q-tank (which I have unwittingly been growing mosquito lavae and daphnia in) and he's been swimming round hunting down all the insects... could I keep the betta in the 20 gal with corys, otos, shrimp and wild-type feeder guppies?


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think a Betta would fit in fine with the fish you mentioned. He will eat all baby guppies and probably any baby shrimp. It will make tank-keeping easier.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Excellent. I am a little disappointed that I can't get colourful males now - but saving the poor betta is worth it, especially since he probably would have died in the store as he was left untreated.


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

BiscayneBoulevard, I love your questions and I love this thread. Great read!

If you are able, can you post a photo? hoto:

I know that takes time to do, but you paint a wonderful picture with your words. I would love to see your tanks.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Thank you Jimbo! I feel like I am asking _too many questions!

I'd be more than happy to take some photos for you - however, my goldfish tank is currently bare as bare can be due to an ich outbreak, so had to remove the plants. Plus, after being on this forum I have since realised that I have a pitiful 1 watt per gallon, which isn't really enough light for anything. However, as soon as I get more light and plants into that tank, I'll take some photos for you.

As for the 20 gallon Ebay tank, that arrives in a few days, and I was planning to document the set up to make sure I was doing it all okay... so don't worry, there will be some photos soon, and I'm sure many more questions!_


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Sounds great. I look forward to reading your posts, questions and someday your photos. 

There is a lot to learn. With many wonderful members to help out. 
To let you know, the answers you get will be significantly different depending on where you post the question. 
I found this confusing for a bit, as I was trying to absorb it all. The whole system is complex, but the support from other members is what make the difference. 

It is good to have you on APC, and never stop learning. 
That is part of the fun!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Ah, learning. My family is getting sick of hearing about just why it is that so and so plant does this to the water which means this for the fish etc etc...

I will try to make sure I post my questions in the right places - to be honest I only just discovered today that there were different sections.

Update as to the actual set up - I now have the 20 gallon tank, a succulent/cacti soil mix, gravel, a small filter, a rather industrial looking lamp, and soon (coming in the post) some greater duckweed for the set up. I will post photos when it is set up - currently all these things are at different ends of the earth.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Well, I just opened my cacti soil mix to spread it out (the tank comes tomorrow!!) It is sandy and has a tiny bit of granular fertiliser in it (I picked out what I could) and I think a little bit of manure, but this has all but been converted back to mulch... should I sift out the large particles (eg, bark) before putting it in my tank, and also, should I pre-soak it?

Thanks!


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Ah, learning. My family is getting sick of hearing about just why it is that so and so plant does this to the water which means this for the fish etc etc...
> 
> I will try to make sure I post my questions in the right places - to be honest I only just discovered today that there were different sections.
> 
> Update as to the actual set up - I now have the 20 gallon tank, a succulent/cacti soil mix, gravel, a small filter, a rather industrial looking lamp, and soon (coming in the post) some greater duckweed for the set up. I will post photos when it is set up - currently all these things are at different ends of the earth.


Yeah, my family is very careful about asking questions about the tanks if they are not ready for a new lesson in what Dad has learned recently. 

The part about different sections and the fact that answers could be different depending on WHERE I asked was VERY confusing to me as I was learning about the hobby, website and how it all works. John N. was a godsend to me every step of the way. You find out who knows what, and can get more answers offline. Many helpful members here.

Having everything slowly being assembled is exciting, isn't it? Sounds great.



> Well, I just opened my cacti soil mix to spread it out (the tank comes tomorrow!!) It is sandy and has a tiny bit of granular fertiliser in it (I picked out what I could) and I think a little bit of manure, but this has all but been converted back to mulch... should I sift out the large particles (eg, bark) before putting it in my tank, and also, should I pre-soak it?


 I look forward to the answer to this one! Good Question.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So how much bark is in there?
I usually just pick out the larger pieces.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

There's a moderate amount of bark... I suppose I will just get out the main bits... does it float?

Also - to pre-soak, or not to pre-soak? That is the question:
Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of floating debris,
Or to take arms against a tank of troubles
And by pre-soaking end them? To soak, to float;
No more.
...Floating bark? Aye, there's the rub.


----------



## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

Soak it, stir it, let it settle, drain the water, repeat ad infinitem. If that mix has fertilizer in it then you want it all to dissolve and get it out before using it. Or use something else without ferts. 

The danger here is that the fertilizer may be encapsulated or otherwise designed to release over time. In that case the release rates will be related to temperature, moisture and possibly availability of oxygen. I have experience with NT that had a substrate that contained fertilizers, and it is not an experience anyone would want to share with me.  

I would get a different substance for a substrate. It was a really bad experience.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Sorry, accidentally double posted - see below for actual post


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I think it is slow release fertiliser unfortunately... what a shame! I have been trying to find topsoil for ages and this was the best I could find... there isn't tooo much fertiliser, far less than in normal mixes, and the little pellets are bright green, so easy to spot. I think I will just very diligently sift through it before putting it in the tank, and hope for the best. Thanks Liz! (Patience is a virtue I just don't have hehe)

Jimbo, I have been inspired by your betta tank! I would love to try and do something like that for my own poor betta, when he.. gets better. ... ehehe.


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

No, no, no, no, no, no. no. 

Listen to Liz. If there is something that has slow release fertilizer in it, follow their suggestions. 
Diana suggests even air drying soil. 

Thank you for the kind words about my Betta Tank. The Betta Bowl at the Office now has a 1 to 1 1/2 inch of soil on the bottom and I will need to see how or what changes. I now only have the Anubias and HM in there. I took out the Dwarf Sagittaria hoping the HM can get more light and grow well. 

I have to tell you - once I have grown enough plants to have some very healthy good plants and built some confidence, then El Naturale is easier for me. It is a learning curve. My 9 Cup Betta Vase at Home is completely El Naturale. Feed Betta. Fish and Plants seem to do well. I do like it when the house and or water is warmer because then the Betta is more active.

My Betta Bowl at the Office was previously all Seachem, and I have to be honest with you - may stay that way. It is a matter of wanting the plants to grow at a good clip and learning how to trim them, and how they grow. My Anubias is getting large enough I could cut it in half with a sharp knife and spread to another tank. But for now my focus is learning how HM grows and reacts when trimmed and or planted. My challenge is that it is so very tiny and I find it almost difficult to plant them one at a time. I am also used to seeing absolutely no algae in that Bowl. When I saw some on the older leaves on the Anubias and a snail, well I was very surprised and shocked. 

Again thank you for the nice compliments on the Betta Bowl. 

With El Naturale, patience is so necessary. (I think.)

I would wait for more advice to help you with your frustration finding soil you can use. 
Do you have Diana's book yet? (You will love it and read it for hours!)


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Ahhh... well... actually I already used that soil.......

I did presoak it though - a lot of the bark and other organic matter, along with the slow release fertiliser, floated to the top, and I was able to skim it all off. I also picked it out prior to soaking, and found that most of the little slow-release balls were collapsed (so I would assume, empty) anyway... oh well! Next time...

I actually just bought a nice big bowl for my betta today (he is almost fully recovered!) and am planning to make that El Naturale also... just need a light for him. I was at the lfs the other day, planning to buy some plants for the 20 gallon... unfortunately it was the end of the week and they were COMPLETELY out of everything! ...So I bought some gambusia instead. Three pregnant females that I felt sorry for, because they were all pregnant and in a feeder tank. They are now in the 20 gallon... unfortunately however, I have found that the lfs is more interested in making money than giving good advice - when asking if I could keep these females with my guppies, I was told that I could. After further research about gambusia when I got home, I discovered that they are actually extremely aggressive, and that they basically kill male guppies. I always seem to get bad advice from these people, and it makes me so angry because I get left with fish (that I refuse to return, because I know they will get eaten) and there are only two local aquariums around. Luckily though I have been growing a waterlily in a tub outside, which has been a bit of a bloodworm and mosquito breeding ground.. so as soon as my duckweed arrives and grows to cover a bit of the surface of the tub, I will put them outside. I actually think that they are wild caught fish - extremely skittish and haven't settled down at all. Perhaps this is just the breed, but in Australia they are an introduced species and have been wiping out our native fish - so it sort of makes sense that they would be caught from rivers and sold as feeders. I think they'll enjoy life in the tub eating mosquito larvae a lot more than being in my tank... the poor things seem frightened all the time.

I have Seachem also... however when using it in my goldfish tank I generally get an algae explosion, and my plants get covered. Probably because I have very low light, but still, I find that I can get a better balance (not much of a balance, but better) without it.

Not a problem about the compliments - I hope to be able to grow an environment as beautiful as yours for my own betta.

While I don't have any experience yet, I think I would agree that patience is necessary with El Naturale... which is why, once the gambusia are outside, I won't be adding any more fish to my 20 gallon or bowl until they are fully planted and growing nicely.

Don't have Diana's book yet, but I am really looking forward to reading it! I'm hoping to be able to get my hands on it over Christmas.

The 20 gallon is se up with the filter, heater, light, substrate etc, and the remains of the plants I had from the goldfish tank. I had to take out the plants because I was treating for ich with salt, and after 3 weeks in a bucket with very little light or fertiliser, they are a little worse for wear, especially the poor vals. All I have are a few very sick vals and some floating and planted wisteria in there... as soon as I fill it in with more plants, I will get some photos for you! It is also a little hazy but not too bad.

Yesterday I also moved the goldfish tank downstairs, so it has been re-organised. No plants yet (I'm still student and thus perpetually poor) but I might get photos of it with just the rocks because I quite like it this way... though very much looking forward to getting the plants and pots in.

A question for Betty - I noticed with your planted goldfish tank that you had a bubble wall in there... I have two in my tank, since the fish load is quite high (I will need a bigger tank when these guys grow, though they are still quite small)... my question is, don't the bubbles drive off all the Co2? Do the plants still grow well in tanks with aeration? I don't want to get rid of it since the fish just seem to do so much better with the extra oxygen...

If nothing else, I think El Naturale will definitely teach me to be patient! (I've learnt my lessons already with skimping on quarantine... absolute minimum of 2 weeks from now on, no matter how good the fish look!)


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

One of my gambusia just gave birth to a tiny fry!! But then promptly ate the poor thing before it even started swimming... I am starting to see their aggressive side though. The largest one (who is pregnant, but not heavily yet) is constantly harassing the other smaller, heavily pregnant ones. If she's not going for one of them she's going for the other... do guppies eat fry very aggressively too? If they're anything like these gambusia, I don't think I will have a problem being over run by fry...


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> I had to take out the plants because I was treating for ich with salt, and after 3 weeks in a bucket with very little light or fertiliser, they are a little worse for wear, especially the poor vals. All I have are a few very sick vals and some floating and planted wisteria in there...


Would Seachem's Live Bearer Salt help with ich? It is a salt that is not harmful to the plants but very helpful to fish like Mollies that like some salt in the tank. I don't have a ton of it or use it often, but I know that it is not harmful to the plants. Again I wonder if it would help with ich.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm not sure Jimbo.. I've never heard of the Livebearer's salt before.. it would definitely save a lot of heart ache when treating planted tanks...

I was able to get a lovely 2.5 gallon bowl for my betta, and even a small halogen lamp to go with it today. It doesn't have any plants yet except for duckweed, but I'm very excited about setting it up for him. Heironymus has fully recovered... he's built two bubble nests in the quarantine tank and is even flaring at the reflection of himself that he can see in a tiny metalic sticker on my filter.

A question about tiny critters in natural tanks (well, perhaps all tanks, though I've never seen them in my goldfish tank).. today I noticed some tiny (tiny tiny tiny.. I can't see any legs, features, nothing. All I know is that they seem to walk on the glass, and they aren't worms) white things along the substrate line of my 20 gallon today. I've never seen them before, and was wondering if they came from the soil, or the duckweed I added. They seem to be eating away at a really fine (there isn't even any colour to it yet) layer of algae on my glass. Does anyone know what they are, and if they are in any way harmful?


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Sounds cool. I wonder if Bpimm or DataGuru could tell us? Or maybe OneMindseye? They might know.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I dunno. The seachem site doesn't say what's in it.


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

I couldnt find much info on the makeup of the Livebearer salt. Even on the MSDS. ... but here is what Seachem had to say about it in reference to keeping plants:



> "Actually, we have not found any plant yet for which it is not safe. Certain plants, however, such as Crypts, are from exceptionally soft waters and might not adapt too easily to weak salt solutions. But that is just a cautionary statement. In practice, we have found all of the broad spectrum
> of plants tested to be quite tolerant, except at the higher limits we set on the instructions."


Note "... weak salt solutions ..." I can read between the lines 

What I get out of that statement is: Yes, you can keep plants in LOWER (being the key word) concentrations of Livebearer salt. Same as other conditioning salts. Higher levels will quickly cause problems for your plant life.

So...ALITTLE salt for your Livebearers should be ok. Brackish tank? No way! Mollies and guppies adapt very well to our salt-free planted tanks though  For treating sickness? Maybe.... i dont see why not if it causes the same skin irration in fish as conditioning salts then the effect would be the same - causing the fish to overproduce slime coating which helps fight off the parasites.

Seamchem explains that its Sodium Chloride that kills plants which their product does not contain. Not sure how it works but they eluded to there being SODIUM without the CHLORIDE thus making it plant safe. But sodium levels are toxic to plants as well...sooooo *shrug*

If you ask me - it probably should be labeled "Fancy Salt" on the box  LOL.... not that I havnt been wrong before.

Re: the little white thingys

Not sure what these could be but I bet Diana could offer a great guess. Its likely that its some sort of aquatic insect (I bet its a worm or copod) that hitchhiked along on a plant or the like....

You probably witnessed them feasting on the coat of bioslime (HIGHLY scientific word *grin*) on the inside glass of your tank.

By the loose description I would guess you have some Tubifex worms in your tanks (Ever feed live tubifex?).. worms like this often find shelter in floating plants like Duckweed 

Most probably quite harmless and a extra food source for your fish.... You've probably never seen 'em in your goldfish tanks because Goldies are HUNGRY little buggers!!! 

I recently took down my 30gallon NPT and was puzzled to find what looked like earthworms in the subtrate. I have fed earthwords to this tank before but never aquatic worms. My best guess ended up being that larvae was brought in on the roots on some plant...

Take care 
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

onemyndseye said:


> I couldnt find much info on the makeup of the Livebearer salt. Even on the MSDS. ... but here is what Seachem had to say about it in reference to keeping plants:
> 
> "Actually, we have not found any plant yet for which it is not safe. Certain plants, however, such as Crypts, are from exceptionally soft waters and might not adapt too easily to weak salt solutions. But that is just a cautionary statement. In practice, we have found all of the broad spectrum
> of plants tested to be quite tolerant, except at the higher limits we set on the instructions."​
> ...


What I get out of that statement, and the knowledge that this product is not straight NaCl, is that you can put in the minimum dosage without harming your plants. That is *not* something you can do with straight NaCl.



> Seamchem explains that its Sodium Chloride that kills plants which their product does not contain. Not sure how it works but they eluded to there being SODIUM without the CHLORIDE thus making it plant safe. But sodium levels are toxic to plants as well...sooooo *shrug*


Actually, Seachem says the product does contain NaCl but other substances predominate. The fact is that all simple inorganic salts kill plants in high enough concentration, but sodium is toxic at much lower doses than Ca, Mg or K.

I should add that I have used Livebearer Salt in a Tanganyika tank that was planted because it contained lower levels of sodium than Rift Lake Salt mix.


----------



## bigtroutz (Nov 17, 2006)

All you need to know about using salt in your aquarium:
Frequently asked questions on using salt | Practical Fishkeeping magazine


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Thank you for that article and all that great information about salt... fortunately the ich has cleared up, and my bettas fins are growing back wonderfully (I was able to tell that pet store that their fish were sick the other day - they didn't seem to care at all. I hate pet stores.)

I've never fed tubifex to any of the tanks... but the little white things seem to have disappeared (probably eaten by the gambusia I would imagine)

The 20 gallon now has a pot of hairgrass (split and spread out), some vals, cabomba, hygrophilia difformis (floating and rooted), duckweed and two banana lilies... I am slowly going about filling it, as my funds allow... the hairgrass has already begun to spread, and I can see roots against the glass from the hygrophilia... the floating plants put down roots right away. The banana lilies are sending up floating leaves, and the cabomba is a fairly recent addition, so not much growth there yet.. though I have heard that they are a little picky. I'm not sure what else to put in yet... I was thinking some more vals, and maybe ludwigia to add a bit of contrast....... apart from dwarf sag, what other plants would be a good mid-ground plant? I was also able to direct the spray bar down and against the glass, so that there is no surface agitation, but still some pretty good circulation (though it doesn't blow the mulm away from the plant bases - yes!)

I have also put a few cabomba cuttings, some duckweed, hygrophilia and hairgrass into the betta bowl... though it is still pretty scant. Ammonia is at 0.5 so he is still in the hospital tank for now.

I will try to get photos soon, even though the tanks are not finished!

I have a question about the 30 gal goldfish tank, when it is eventually planted - at the moment I have a aqua one canister filter on it, I've reduced the gravel to about an inch, per Betty's suggestions, and I also have two bubble wands running - one on either side of the tank. I know now that this won't do anything for the plants, since they need the co2 and that is being driven off by the bubbles.... would it be better to gradually lessen the airflow before getting rid of the wands all together, or should I just lessen the airflow, but keep the wands running at a reduced rate? I've read that goldfish need an oxygen-rich tank - would a fully planted tank be able to provide this, or is it safer to stick with the pump?

Thanks!


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

How toxic that .5ppm of ammonia is depends on your water temperature and pH. I'd start getting worried at tropical temperatures and pH up at 7.9. A dose of prime or amquel would help bring it down.

So what kinda substrate are you going to use in the goldie tank for plants? Or are you going with plants potted in topsoil?

I've had a bubble wand going in my goldie tanks for ages and the plants do fine. I typically have plants potted in topsoil and lighting around 2wpg. I don't dose with any ferts. You can see what my 55 looked like here. That is a bubble wand running in the middle rear of the tank.


----------



## goldielovr (Apr 12, 2006)

BiscayneBoulevard said:


> Is it possible to achieve good growth with just el-cheapo bulbs? I don't really like the idea of spending $30 per tube when I can buy an entire fixture for that much...


Diane Walstad, the one who recently re-popularized the NPT, did a little test on the various types of tube florescents and found plants grew best with coolwhites mixed with the daylight (yellowish) and 'grow-lux' aquarium type light (purple-ish one). But a close second and far from the third best was just plain old el-cheap0 bulbs. The mix and exclusively cool whites were both WAAY more effective growing plants than any other combo she could come up with (except real sunlight). And since that's so, why would anybody use the other bulbs?

The cool whites make the green of your plants really sing. The gold goldfish show especially pretty against the green with cool whites. It's my personal favorite in lightng.-Melis


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi Betty,

Heironymus is not yet in the bowl with the ammonia, so I am just going to let it cycle and hope that when I finally add all the plants the water will sort itself out. I tested the 20 gal yesterday and there was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0.5 nitrate - better than any of my other tanks have ever been, as far as nitrates are concerned!

Once the new light is added to the goldie tank, I am going to go with plants potted in topsoil. I've got my little clay pots lined up already.

Melis,

Thank you for that information on the lighting. I think I will definitely go with the el cheapo bulbs once the lights are fixed up - after spending $30 a tube for the aquarium lights, I'm not willing to do it again!

Just a question on betta bowls - would it be possible to have an el naturale tank with just sunlight alone? Not direct sun, but a bright window.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I don't like how cool white looks. too yellow for me. tho it might be ok mixed with other light. You can get bulbs cheap at hardware stores. Both Home Depot and Lowes carry 6500K daylight bulbs.

There's a 65 watt 6500K lights of america flood light that you can find cheap if you look around. I'm using those on my 120 gallon goldie tank. Our Home Depot carries replacement bulbs for it. 

re betta bowl: That might work. You can always put a small desk lamp with a fluorescent bulb over it.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

*Hair algae! Help!*

My 20 gallon has developed hair algae! Should I be worried about this? Anything I should do to reduce it? The tank has a 15 watt compact fluorescent light and natural sunlight (only half of the tank has natural sunlight - the rest is below the window sill) and it on for about 12 hours a day. I have hair grass, wysteria, two banana lilies, cabomba, vals, and floating wysteria and greater duckweed. The plants have been growing well - there doesn't seem to be any of the dark green algae growing on them (as it did when they were in the goldfish tank) but the vals are starting to get hair algae. I only noticed this today when I saw my "gravel" pearling, and realised there was algae.

The tank isn't fully planted yet. I was thinking of adding some ludwigia, possibly some small crypts, and some java moss. Is there anything else I should add to try and combat the algae?


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

anacharis and hornwort are supposed to secrete chemicals that supress algae. I harvest hair algae out of my NPTs and feed it to my goldies.


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Well, I didn't really end up buying anything that I had planned... but I have some pink rotala, more vals and another mystery plant. I was told the name but cannot remember it at all.... the plants look like nasturtiums.

I also discovered that they sell terrestrial plants as "aquatics" and painted fish. I'm shocked and quite frankly disgusted.


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Thats absolutely correct!... thats why this forum makes for such a valuable tool for a hobbyist..

You get a collaboration of good info that ranges from practical to extravagant  Take your pick of what to use 

Take care and good luck with your NPT,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Absolutely! I've learnt more about the actual science behind how to grow plants on this forum than I have ever learnt online or from the lfs!


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Are those tiny white translucent 'worms' nematodes? I think they are natural to soil and I see them in my son's 2.5 Gallon tank also. Also my snails in that tank like to 'swim'. They either purposefully 'float' up or 'dive' down in the water when they want to. Weird, but beautiful. 

I have read elsewhere that plants grown in brackish (swamp?) water grow tougher and stronger. I have no practical experience with this myself. 

Is there anyone else here that has experiece with plants out in nature down south? (hint, hint) I know there are. :smile:


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I'm not sure if they were nematodes, but they disappeared quite quickly.
My snails like to swim too! They swim across the water's surface, and sometimes they stop to swim down right in mid water - I've read that pond snails use slime trails to get around that way.


----------



## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Jimbo205 said:


> I have read elsewhere that plants grown in brackish (swamp?) water grow tougher and stronger. I have no practical experience with this myself.


Don't know about tougher or stronger, but here's what I saw in my previous tanks:

Hygrophila difformis turned fluorescent yellow - no kidding, bright as a highlighter - in brackish water. Also, hygrophila polysperma grown in salty water turned a lovely shade of red. To be specific, it was a goldfish bowl, with a male and female fiddler crab, and 1" water over 1" soil with a slant so they could walk above the waterline, and hygrophila polysperma was growing emergent out of it. The plant was originally pale green, when growing from the salty water the emergent leaves turned dark red and the plant looked healthy.
Don't know why salt made these plants color up, but there you have it.


----------



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Ooooooo..... that sounds great! hoto: Can we see? 

I know you all tried before, but what do you think is in the Seachem Livebearer Salt? (Where is DataGuru or Salt? Those 2 know stuff like this!)


----------

