# Converting to emersed and other questions



## dennis

I know most of these have been asked before but I did not always see them answered. Therefor, please forgive me if I re-ask an old question. Kai's, Sean's, Xema's and others recent posts about emersed crypts have me intrigued. I've been feeling a little stagnant with the hobby lately and this really is interesting me.

That being said, I have very little time, money or space to invest in this. I do have a 5.5gal AGA tank with single strip florescent light that I could find room for, but that is about it. One thing that really interests me is one of HeyPK's posts about growing plants emersed in sealed glass jars on a window sill. Would it work to use a clean quart mason jar with lid? I can easily find some leaf litter nearby and there is a close forest pond that should have lots of good litter similar to what neil is using. Lastly, I have a few small runners of submersed Cryptocoryne cordata, Mi Oya and parva.

If memory serves, to convert to emersed culture you woudl take a submersed plant (small) with only a few leaves and plant it in a "soil" mix, covering with water to cover the crown of the plant. That way any new growth will come in emersed. Is that right?

I think I will try the jar idea placed in a south facing window with all my houseplants. Should it be fully sealed with a lid, covered with plastic wrap, have holes in the lid, etc? I'll try the 5.5 gallon once I find space somewhere.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## newellcr

Dennis,

Yes, you have the basics right. Overall, I haven't had much problems taking plants to/from emerse culture. A healthy Crypt doesn't have much problems converting. I haven't had really good luck with emerse cordata plants. The Mi Oya will do well. Glass jars on window sills definitely work. So do those giant plastic containers that pretzels and animal crackers come in. Cut 2 ltr coke bottles work too. In my experience bigger is better. I cover but don't seal the container. 

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## dennis

Thanks! 

I was trying to stay away from plasitc bottles as I have read people, Paul for one, have had problems with the plastic breaking down and harming the plants. I would imagine leaching of Besphenol A into a tiny amount of water would not be good Maybe the plants would change sex?

To bad to hear that about cordata. I have a plant club meeting next weekend so I'll try to put out the request for some small crypts from fellow members.

I set up one jar a little bit ago. Here is what I did: place about 1/2" of cheap/cheap/cheap garden-center topsoil that has been sitting outside on an open bag all summer. (open but scrunched over so no water or organics got in). Farland brand. Then I mixed in about 50ml of Onyxsand and capped with another 1/2" of Onyxsand. I planted a small cordata plantlet that had 2 new leavees forming and removed all but 1 healthy leaf. Overall the plant is only about 2" tall with roots. Then I filled the container with enough tank water to just cover the two newly forming leaves. I placed it on the window sill and did put the lid on.

Was the Onyx a bad idea? I remember reading that someone did a similar setup but who evades me now. Should I try another with Soilmaster and dirt, or just straight dirt?


----------



## DelawareJim

Dennis;

You might want to start out with your jars in an east facing window, or one that is partially shaded. Closed glass containers heat up pretty quickly and your might cook your Crypts on a cloudless sunny day.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## dennis

Jim,

I thought of that but due to the way the house, trees, and winter sun in New England are, this window only gets 4 hours of sun at best. I figure it will be fine this time of year. I actually grew out some Hydrocotyle sibthorpoides in the same window over the summer. Little nano tank with saran-wrap cover and it did not bake. Thanks for watching out though, now hope I don't eat those words


----------



## SCMurphy

Just as long as the window doesn't get too cold at night, New England weather, you should be fine.


----------



## dennis

I thought if that last night when someone said snow for next week. I have other, "tropical" plant cuttings growing out on the same sills. We've had several nights into the mid 20's and they were fine. The windows are new, double pane windows so pretty efficient.

Another question, with the price of oil these days, the thermostat is set for 60 at night and when we are gone. Think that would be an issue?

Sean, you went to UMass right? Funny story, the house I am renting now is the one Jeff Corwin and his wife used to rent. Maybe this house is good luck?


----------



## SCMurphy

Yes I was at UMass, Zoology BS 86 and Fish and Wildlife Management MS 91, you should be able to find my thesis in the Science Library if you wanted to waste time. Is Paul Godfrey ever around?

I'm afraid Jeff is going to follow Steve E. I watched a show where he wrestled a huge alligator snapping turtle out of a muddy swamp. I was just waiting for the turtle to nail him.


----------



## EDGE

Cryptocoryne grows a lot better in 77f (25c) environment than in 72f (22c) environment. Most if not all the cryptocoryne stopped growing in my emersed when I kept it in the garage at 72f. Once I brought the setup inside the house and raise the temp to 77f, they started taking off.

Onyx sand/gravel will work for crypts coming from Philipine and most aquarium strain. i.e pygmaea, crispatula, usteriana, wendtii, and etc. Onyx will not work well with blackwater crypts or crypts that require 0 kH.

Unless you are keeping blackwater crypts, you can go with Gomer's method using shultz aquatic soil or flourite or any plain gravel. But this will require liquid fertilizer


----------



## Xema

This is my current emersed crypts set up, top one for neutral and alkaline sp, and down one for peat swamp and acid request plants.


----------



## dennis

Sean, 
Paul Godfrey does not ring a bell. What department is he in. My father-in-law (to be) may know him. Do you remember a James Walker in the Botany/Biology dept? He did a lot with plant evolution.... probably taught an evolution class. About Jeff, that why his wife, when they lived here, left. Guess she did not like hearing by satellite phone that he had been bit by a coral snake. Hopefully he stays safe. Its amazing the kind of awareness he and Steve Erwin (and others) created.

Back on topic..

Xema,
Very nice. I wish I had the room/money to devote to something like that. Questions: do you have any water circulation in those tanks? What about heaters? And finally, do you rely on the substrate in the pots for nutrients or do you fertilize the water also? Thanks for sharing that!


----------



## EDGE

Xema,

what kind of lighting do you have above the 2 setup?


----------



## SCMurphy

Paul taught Aquatic Vascular Plants when I was there, I looked on the website, he's retired now. I did not meet James Walker, he must have started at UMass after I was gone. It's weird for me to think that I got my BS 20 years ago, and I left the area 15 years ago. 

We went to the UMass/Navy football game back in September, as an undergrad I was in the marching band. Its even stranger for me to think that when I started in the band this year's freshman weren't born yet.:retard:

I'm hoping to build an actual culture set up this weekend.

Dennis have you gone to the AGA site and joined the NACS yet?


----------



## Xema

dennis said:


> do you have any water circulation in those tanks?


Only, in neutral requesting set up, with a water pump.



dennis said:


> What about heaters?


I use to use little heater about 25/50 w full sumersible. keeping the water temp around 23/24ºC.



dennis said:


> do you rely on the substrate in the pots for nutrients or do you fertilize the water also?


Of course you need add some ferts within the water. I my peat-swamp plants set up I use to add a special liquid fert for acid necessities plants. In the other set up I use to add a regular fert for indoor plants... Somo time I use to add some ferts by foliar way.


----------



## Xema

EDGE said:


> Xema,
> 
> what kind of lighting do you have above the 2 setup?


There are 15wx2 energy-saving bulbs 3000ºK (85 lumens per watt) .


----------



## dennis

Xema,

Are you using soil or litter in the pots or is the substrate peat moss/coconut fiber?

Sean, 

I have not signed up for the NACS yet but I guess I should. James would have been there when you were in school but its a big campus. I just though it would have been funny if you knew my father-in-law. If it makes you feel better, I was born when you started


----------



## Xema

I am using a special mix of soil to every sp. or sp group.

My basic elements are:

- Akadama
- Kanuma
- Sepiolite
- Peat moss
- Granulated peat
- Pine bark
- Beech litter
- Pine litter
- Sand
- Coconut fiber
- Common forest litter

I use the most acid stuff for plant that like acid soil, more neutral to other plants which don´t need so acid soil.


----------



## HeyPK

I still have many of my emersed crypts in 2 liter soda pop bottles. Some of them , such as _C. cordata _do quite well, and all the others at least maintain themselves without drying out or needing any more than a minute or two of care for years.

I am still suspicious of the plastic in soda pop bottles, and, for best growth, I would recommend glass for all emersed plants. However, there seem to be only a few plants that are harmed badly by the plastic. The most sensitive plant for me was Hygrophila corymbosa compacta that dwindled down to the size of duckweed plants in the soda pop bottle, and when I transferred them, with the original soil and water to a covered glass jar, they started growing normally and eventually pushed past the cover of the glass jar without any additional fertilization.

Lots of plants do well enough in soda pop bottles that I will continue to use soda pop bottles for their purpose which is to keep the species alive with very little time required for care.


----------



## dennis

Thanks for clearing that up Paul. I'll stick to glass for now since I have lots of empty (clean) sauce jars but no soda bottles. I don't drink enough soda to really make that an option. Now if Guinness came in clear bottles..... 

I kept an eye on my little C. cordata in the glass jar. Nice sunny day here, about 6-7 hours of sun and the inside barely got warm. I don't imagine it would do well in that location in the summer but this time of year, seems safe enough.

I also went out and collected a few bags of soil. One bag is mixed pine/maple forest soil, the other is from an area that is Maple (Acer) dominated. In both cases I scraped away all the leaves, needles etc and collected from the dark organic matter layer. The mostly maple source I also tried to get a a mix of top layer and lighter A horizon soil. Both soils were collected on pretty sloping terrain and the O layer was very shallow. This was an area in which the soil had not been disturbed in many years so I assume the thin O litter layer is due to fast decomp and leaching due to the slope.

What do you all think about that "dirt"?


----------



## DelawareJim

Dennis;

I think your forest soil should work pretty well. If the soil is mostly maple leaf material, the O layer shouldn't be very thick. Maple decomposes pretty quickly. If I remember, they tend to be pretty close to neutral or slightly alkaline.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## dennis

Cool. I figured I would let it sit open in the bags to allow the soil to air out. I also though I could mix some in water and test the pH using my probe. Any ideas whether I should test immediatly after mixing or let it sit (sealed/unsealed?) for a period.

I got a go from the boss of the house to set up a little emersed grow out tank in the hall. I have a 5.5 with hood and a small 25 watt heater. I can cover the top with glass or plastic. A few NEAPS members will be giving me some various crytpocoryne runners, I have some cheap clay pots and a jug of DI so I should be good to go. OOOO- exciting. 

For lighting, I have available an 18watt NO fixture or an 8watt T5. I could also retro a 13watt PC instead, but I need a PC an I'd like to do this on the cheap (ie, free). Any suggestions there?


----------



## SCMurphy

Dennis,

If your father-in-law is a botanist at UMass I'd try to get an in with someone in charge of a warm greenhouse. I know that when I was there I was able to get a lot of help with little projects that didn't take to much space just by being eager and asking, and having prof like Willy helped. Remember that its a place for teaching and encouraging youngin's. You might find a way to do an independent study and get credit for it too.

The leaf soil you want is the 3rd year leaves that the worms are living in. Depressed areas where they have piled up thickly and get really wet are good spots. Sweep away the dry leaves and anything that is still in one piece and use that earthy smelling stuff at the bottom. Niels took me out in the rain in Switzerland and showed me exactly what he was talking about in his paper. The guys over there found that the composted leaves of beech trees, Fagus sylvatica, from areas with no limestone produced the soil that worked the best.

*However*, one of the things that we need to do here is find out what works for us, so don't shy away from Maple or Oak leaved areas. Just document what you are trying and the results it produces. I'm ordering my pH and conductivity pens soon so I can track what I'm doing.


----------



## DelawareJim

Sean;

Who you getting the pens from? I might ask if you can order a pair for me too?

Let me know if you want more net pots, liners, or coco fiber. I need an excuse to run to the new shop in Delaware next weekend. (grin)

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## dennis

SCMurphy said:


> The leaf soil you want is the 3rd year leaves that the worms are living in. Depressed areas where they have piled up thickly and get really wet are good spots. Sweep away the dry leaves and anything that is still in one piece and use that earthy smelling stuff at the bottom. Niels took me out in the rain in Switzerland and showed me exactly what he was talking about in his paper. The guys over there found that the composted leaves of beech trees, Fagus sylvatica, from areas with no limestone produced the soil that worked the best.


Good info, thanks. That makes a lot of sense but I am not really sure about the relationship between really wet and worms. A really wet area would probably have slower decomposition due to the wetness. The worms would speed decomp and seem less likely to exist in areas that are really wet. Are we talking areas that are shallowly depressed but not swamp-like or is swamp-like better? Chris seems to be doing really well with his collected pond gop.....

Are we wanting, in general, material that is high or low in nutrients and organics? I keep thinking organics are bad but that is for natural tanks, not necessarily emersed growth conditions. It seems one of the intentions is to keep a "live" soil with all the useful, beneficial bacteria for the long term release of micro nutrients.


----------



## SCMurphy

I think it was EcoLab that had one that did both.

I want more of those pots. I took several plants out of their containers to put in those pots you brought. I was doing the plants that I thought were doing the worst. I found leaves and white roots that I didn't know were there. Things are settling in!


----------



## SCMurphy

Dennis, think seasonal wetlands. The places where lots of leaves gather in thick layers and may become submerged in wet springs. These places are always wet in the spring, it just isn't always visible. You want the leaves to be in a state of decompsition. I'm going to try to fake that level of composting as well to see if it can be done.

The ECS guys are shooting for tannis and low pH, they add fertilizers to the water but they do it lightly to maintain a low conductivity. (this is for the blackwater crypts, thought they seem to get all but the hard water crypts to do well in it)


----------



## dennis

Thanks for clearing that up. considering those low areas of leaf collection, I would think the soil nutrient levels would be higher due to collection from runoff and also due to a higher soil compaction. However, we are not using the soil but rather the organic layer, correct? Is the reason for selecting from these wet, low areas due to the effects periodic saturation on decomposition and thus litter quality or is it that these areas simply have a thicker layer of fluff and thus are an easier source of material?

What role do the tannins play? I don't know too much about tannins but are we interested in them because they bind elements and reduce pH, becasue they are a source of C (and sugars) or becasue they effect nutrient availability?

Sorry for all the questions!


----------



## SCMurphy

I think those are the questions that need to be answered.


----------



## dennis

Hey guess what, more questions!

I played a little with my setup today. Cleared a space and setup the 5.5gal tank, made sure the light worked and sorted through my leaf litter. I sifted through the bags of litter, removing any roots, leaves, twigs and anything that was not black fluff. Now for the question(s)... 

Should I soak the litter first, removing anything that floats and keeping only what sinks or goes into emulsion?

I added an inch(2.5cm) if each litter type to separate quart jars and added ~3" (7.5cm) of grocery store type distilled water (pH 7) and sloshed it around. About 9hrs later the pH of the Maple/Oak litter stabilized at 3.8 I did not try the mostly Pine litter. I assume I should let it sit for at least a day but I was antsy to see if anything was happening. Seems like it is.

Another promising thing, I was reading one of Jacobsen's articles (1992, Cultivation of some difficult Cryptocoryne species in humus-rich leaf-mould) and noticed that he mentioned that the wet consistency of the litter he originally used was "like thin porridge or mud that you can hardly get a handful of because it runs through your fingers." Thats exactly what this is like. On the down side he mentions pH levels of 4.8-5.3 so what I have is significantly more acidic. I think I will try to find some litter from an area w/o any Pine as this has to be adding to the acidity. I spotted a likely hole on my drive home today and I guess I should stop and collect some before this area turns into a frozen tundra.

Now I just need to get some smaller pots, pot labels, fill them with soil and add water to the tank. Oh, I guess I should get some plants to huh....

Oh, and a photo of very little....


----------



## HeyPK

You can get good leaf litter substrate by letting the leaves compost for a while before using. You can compost them in a compost pile in your back yard or in a covered shoe box or larger covered box for two weeks. After two weeks of composting you don't have to worry about any of the leaves being "too fresh" and possibly bad for the plant.


----------



## ts168

Hi Dennis, need setup, so what you plan to grow. And how big is the tank size?

If you are able to, try add a small pump to pump the water up and have a little rain bar that have the water fall down onto the water and create a airflow and increase the mositure.
i have try growing afew crypt from submerse(direct convert). I notice that with higher humidity it help to plant grow well in emmerse form.

i have even try growing withwater water pump in tank, the leaf are dryer and the growth is much much slower.
Hope this help. There no need for big internal pump. just a small one to ensure the air and water circulation.


----------



## SCMurphy

Dennis, 

Have you talked to Alan Richmond? He knows where the best vernal ponds are around campus. There was one that I used to go to for daphnia that was very close to the road. There might be some good leaf composts near the ponds. 

The pH is impressive, the ones that the ECS guys were working with might get to 4. This seemed to make them really happy so you should be OK. You can test the substrate with just about any common crypt, even wendtii should grow in it. Just don't try a hardwater crypt.

I got some peat at HD which I mixed into a bunch of alder leaves, and got it wet. I mix it up every couple of days. I haven't tested the pH yet but the leaves are disappearing quickly. 

Good suggestion TS, I was thinking of getting an ultrasonic mist maker for my set up. That or convert a humidifier like the vivarium people do.


----------



## ts168

Hi Sean, i do belive that mist maker or humidifier are not good enough to circulate tank if it more than 1FT cube.

I will try to use one that can do 400L per hr pump and set a timer to run 30min every 3-5hr.


----------



## Xema

Hello guys,

I tested some kind of leaves to find a nice acid stuff in my area, some results following:

- Andalusian Oak (Quercus faginea) - 5,34 pH
- Andalusian Dune Pine (Pinus pinea) - 4,74 pH
- Alder (Alnus glutinosa) - 6,10 pH (need a retested)
- Black Popler (Populus *****) - 5,90 pH (need a retested)
- European Beech (Fagus sylvatica) - 4,50 pH
- Chestnut Tree (Castanea sativa) - 5,50 pH(need a retested)

You must look for places with non calcareous geology


----------



## Xema

To my peat swamp set up, I use to add a mesh-bag with pine needle, peat moss, and beech litter. Using this bag with R/O water I get a pH around 4,5 and a lot of tanins and matured organic matter.



dennis said:


> What role do the tannins play? I don't know too much about tannins but are we interested in them because they bind elements and reduce pH, becasue they are a source of C (and sugars) or becasue they effect nutrient availability?


I thend to think tanins have an important role into the live of microorganisms into the soil. Probably they kill some bad fungus and bacteria and benefit to other ones which are good for plants and rooting process (some thing like Micorhizas)


----------



## SCMurphy

TS I am also adding in a small pump or power head to keep the water moving. I was just thinking of ways to increase the humidity. Do tell me how your tests work out. I am interested to hear.

The good pH range of the substrate will be best illustrated by Kai's research that he presented at the ECS. I am begging him to post a synopsis for everyone.rayer:


----------



## AaronT

I wonder if a simple airstone with a high airflow would produce the desired humidity levels? My setups are 5.5 gallon just like Dennis' so I'm going to give this a shot since I already have the airlines run to the tanks.


----------



## dennis

Sean,

I don't know Alan Richmond. What department was he in? I may try to get a less acid litter soon and then I think I'll have enough options to play with there. I will certainly be using more common species for now and most likely will have lots of C. wendtii to play with after the weekend.

I had no plans for a powerhead and was hoping to get away with only the heater. I have read other say that water movement is not critical so I will for go less cost and conservation of space. Also, this tank will only have 6.2L of water not subtracting for displacement by the pots- so maybe 5 liters of water. It gets cold here and my apartment temp at night is about 60-62 so I will have a 50 watt heater set of 75 degrees F in the water. I am hoping to get a little movement through convection and enough humidity through evaporation in a sealed (more or less) container. I will cover the aquarium with food wrap and I can vent/exchange air daily by lifting a corner for a little bit.


After letting the two litters sit in water for 24 hours, Maple/Oak (mostly maple) has a pH of 4.0 and Pine a pH of 3.8. I think I will start using the maple as it has a little more substance to it, soil-wise. There was actually a thin layer of sediment on the bottom of the sample jar but not in the pine sample.

Any tips on actually planting the plants in this? I have several 2.5" tallx2.25" diameter clay pots. I plan to rinse them well, fill with litter material place in the tank and fill to .5-1" above the top of the pot. I assume I could then just use tweezers/fingers to plant the like I would in the aquarium. I planned to add the soil/pots/water a few days before adding the plants to make sure there are no issues and to bring the temp of the water up before adding the plants. This will also give me an opportunity to see if any humidity is created. I wonder if I could find a cheap hydrometer somewhere?


----------



## SCMurphy

Alan, down in the museum, guy with long white beard and hair.

Natural History Collections - Contacts

Considering the size of tank you are using you should be able to get away just fine without a powerhead. I was actually thinking of wht I am going to be doing with a couple 40 gallon breeder tanks when discussing the pump and humidifier.

The Maple litter sounds very promising, the key will be does it maintain the low acidic levels.


----------



## Kai Witte

Hello Dennis,



> After letting the two litters sit in water for 24 hours, Maple/Oak (mostly maple) has a pH of 4.0 and Pine a pH of 3.8. I think I will start using the maple as it has a little more substance to it, soil-wise. There was actually a thin layer of sediment on the bottom of the sample jar but not in the pine sample.


Congrats, that sounds very promising! Definitely try both soils - truth to be told, it's still not possible to reliably predict the suitability of any substrate. Just go by trial and error!



> Any tips on actually planting the plants in this? I have several 2.5" tallx2.25" diameter clay pots. I plan to rinse them well,


You want to treat new clay pots with acid (e.g. vinegar is fine) since these can be pretty alkaline. I'm more partial to plastic pots/jars.



> fill with litter material place in the tank and fill to .5-1" above the top of the pot. I assume I could then just use tweezers/fingers to plant the like I would in the aquarium. I planned to add the soil/pots/water a few days before adding the plants to make sure there are no issues and to bring the temp of the water up before adding the plants.


Either incubate the soil in DI water for some time (days to several weeks, some aeration might help) or just throw it into the pots already filled with water - you don't want to compact the fluid slurry! No need to remove floating material or small amounts of sand either.

You can "plant" by just throwing the crypt into the pot; a slightly more careful approach won't hurt but basically the plants have to settle in themselves... 

BTW, make sure to (also) get some blackwater crypts for testing purposes since you seem to have very suitable soil for them!


----------



## Xema

AaronT said:


> I wonder if a simple airstone with a high airflow would produce the desired humidity levels? My setups are 5.5 gallon just like Dennis' so I'm going to give this a shot since I already have the airlines run to the tanks.


If you are using a close tank, don´t need any thing to improve the humidity. Keeping the water 2 or 3 grades over the air is enough.

Any way, I spray them every 2 or 3 days to aply some foliar ferts (with R/O water of course).


----------



## dennis

Kai Witte said:


> You want to treat new clay pots with acid (e.g. vinegar is fine) since these can be pretty alkaline. I'm more partial to plastic pots/jars.


Ahh, good to know. I had not thought of that. Thank you! I added a couple pots that I filled with litter, no compacting and set them in the tank with a little water, just to see how things would behave. There is not enough water to cover the pots but tonight the litter has wicked up enough that it is like pudding. It actually looks tasty I will pull them out and soak them as you say. FYI, if it matters, the pots are cheap terra cotta pots from the local garden center. They are probably made in China.



> BTW, make sure to (also) get some blackwater crypts for testing purposes since you seem to have very suitable soil for them!


I will try that once I know a little more what I am doing. Thanks for the encouragement.


----------



## dennis

Xema said:


> If you are using a close tank, don´t need any thing to improve the humidity. Keeping the water 2 or 3 grades over the air is enough.
> 
> Any way, I spray them every 2 or 3 days to aply some foliar ferts (with R/O water of course).


Those two things are very good to know.. Thanks. Also, what levels of ferts do you use? Would it be beneficial to spray with high tech aquarium water or a dilute solution of Miracle Grow? When should one start fertilizing?

Also Xema, I found this regarding tannins:

"Tannins from various plant species have been shown to affect C and N mineralization, complex proteins, induce toxicity to microbes and inhibit enzyme activities in soil (Schimel et al., 1996, Schimel et al., 1998, Bradley et al., 2000, Fierer et al., 2001 and Kraus et al., 2003). It is possible that the higher concentration of condensed tannins in spruce soil (Fig. 4) may have contributed to the lower rate of net N mineralization."

Aino Smolander, Jyrki Loponen, Kimmo Suominen and Veikko Kitunen, 
Organic matter characteristics and C and N transformations in the
humus layer under two tree species, Betula pendula and Picea 
abies, Soil Biology and Biochemistry, Volume 37, Issue 7, , 
July 2005, Pages 1309-1318.
(ScienceDirect - Soil Biology and Biochemistry : Organic matter characteristics and C and N transformations in the humus layer under two tree species, Betula pendula and Picea abies)


----------



## HeyPK

New pots should be pH neurtal, but old, used pots may have quite a bit of calcium carbonate deposits on them if the plants kept in those pots were watered with hard water. The fired clay of the pots will not affect the pH, only limestone deposits from hard water.


----------



## Kai Witte

Well, Paul, did you actually take measurements? 

This effect can vary quite a bit with the source of the clay (potter's clay often has substantial amounts of calcium carbonate added on purpose) and how fresh after firing you get the pots (transport time, air humidity).

Keep in mind that we're heading for weakly buffered water at pH 4 - anything with a pH above that can influence the final result. The acid treatment allows to leach out residual minerals (CaCO3 as well as others) which would dissolve sooner or later under blackwater conditions. Also, a little bit of residual vinegar doesn't hurt...


----------



## Xema

HeyPK said:


> New pots should be pH neurtal, but old, used pots may have quite a bit of calcium carbonate deposits on them if the plants kept in those pots were watered with hard water. The fired clay of the pots will not affect the pH, only limestone deposits from hard water.


I have lots of problems with new ceramic pots... they got neutralized pH in a few days, only having success after change them for plastic pots.

Dennis,

About ferts, I am using a kind of fert sold here in garden centers, it´s compound of:

(N) 15%, (P2 O5 ) 30%, (K2 O) 15%, (Mg) 0,8%. Microelements: (Fe), (Cu), (B), (Zn), (Mn), (Mo) and penetrant agents GF 55.

I use a light dosage, 60% of the manufacturer recommendation.

About tanins researching, I can say, it´s not the same on terrestrial soils than underwater or water saturated soils, microbian flora and fauna it not the same, and concentrations of oxygen and other gasses...


----------



## DelawareJim

Dennis;

The trick with the ferts is to have slow steady growth instead of the peaks and valley growth spurts from heavier fertilization less often. The old addage in horticulture is "feed weakly, weekly". You can use Miracle Grow and use it at 1/2 the recommended strength twice as often, or 1/4 strength four times as often. I use it at 1/4 strength. I would rather my plants grow a little slower than their full potential than accidentally burn them by overdosing.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## AaronT

Hmmm...looks like I should get some of those plastic pots sooner than later. I used the ceramic ones too.


----------



## SCMurphy

dennis said:


> Chris seems to be doing really well with his collected pond gop.....


Dennis I remembered you saying this. I wanted to agree that Chris is doing *great* with his pond goop. I'm doing my best to make up a fake pond goop to use that will give me the same effect. I'm actually thinking of using my clippings from tanks to add to the goop as well. I have to do something with the mouldering clippings that people don't pick up.


----------



## dennis

Sean,

I assume his success has something to do with the pond gop being already seeded with lots of different anaerobic bacteria and continuously submersed humic material. In theory, I would think there is a big difference in make-up between humic material that is occasionally (seasonally) submersed and that which is perpetually submersed. Different organisms, different acids, different concentrations, etc. Do you know if anyone has ever tested the famous beech leaf litter for its make-up? It would be interesting to know if there are any relationships between the types of phenolic acids (and concentrations) compared to success.

The easy answer to Chris' success is the bacteria levels/types in his setup, though that is nothing more than an assumption. I am certainly not as smart as I act.

BTW, I think we just coined a new phrase, "pond gop".


----------



## newellcr

A green thumb? Dumb luck? Mojo? (grin)

I had a chance to look back over the thread and wanted to add to the discussion where I can. Keeping the bacteria alive in the 'aquatic' leaf mould (or pond goop) was a concern for me and probably an advantage over using dry collected materials. (Conjecture,) the biggest problem with wet leaf mould is that the tannins are leeched rather quickly as compared to dry leaf mould which is exposed only to rain. The next question that comes to my mind is - do certain crypts ~require~ the acidic conditions or do they simply tolerate it and have carved out a less competitive niche in this environment? 

Another question. It's been a long time since I've had biology or O chem, but I seem to remember that composting homogenizes materials, meaning that it doesn't matter if you compost banana peels or corn husks, the bacteria break things down to a similar material. Granted, bacteria doesn't 'break down' acids so those would remain until they are washed out. Perhaps the crypts are more in need of the composted material rather than composting of a specific material (ie beech tree leaves)? 

I understand that most of the aquatic 'soils' work is directed at rice crops. It's also my understanding that a lot of the current research focus is on the bacteria network (for lack of knowing a better term) and how the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of species of bacteria interact with each other and the rice plants. 

I'm not sure I'm heading anywhere specific with this discussion but there are some thoughts that I've been mulling over.

Anyway, does anyone know where I can find dry beech leaf mould in Detroit? (grin, again)

Kind Regards,

Chris


----------



## dennis

Chris,

Thanks for the input. I agree in that I don't think it matters if it is beech leaf litter or tropical rain forest tree litter but I wonder if the final resulting acids make a difference. Different "parent material" is likely to produce a different final acid and different decomposers may also play a role.

On an aside, I did a major filter cleaning today and collected about a quart of thick, mulmy goo. I think I will try injecting a little into a couple of my pots to see if any appreciable difference can be observed. I was able to get some small, C. wendtii type plants over the weekend and I planted them in my setup. 3 pots with 2 each of one species and 2 pots with 2 each of another species. That gives me a few replicates to play with....

<tangent>
Oh, and BTW, if your Eheim makes a lot of buzzing and vibrating under normal conditions, replace the impeller adn the impeller shaft. Quiet as a mouse again.
</tangent?


----------



## SCMurphy

dennis said:


> Chris,
> 
> Thanks for the input. I agree in that I don't think it matters if it is beech leaf litter or tropical rain forest tree litter but I wonder if the final resulting acids make a difference. Different "parent material" is likely to produce a different final acid and different decomposers may also play a role.


Actually, that thought is why I started the next thread in the NACS forum. To try to get multiple people using different tree leaf litters all with acid compositions to see if it really is just a case of driving the pH down, or if the type of litter make a difference. Lets face it, not everyone has beech trees in their backyards, if we can eliminate the 'tree hangup' and find the workable solution then there are a lot more possibilities for people to succeed.

I hate to say it again, Kai is going to hate me, but we need his write up so we can follow his technique for testing the various litters for pH and conductivity. I wish I had something I could bribe him with.


----------



## dennis

Maybe you could bribe him with rare Crypts? Oh wait, never mind

I noticed that post and Tom's response a while after I posted my last one here. I found a few library books that related to organic soils. Not many spoke much about our particular situation but the overall jist seems to be that the parent material dictates the types of phenolic (humic) acids present in the soil. This in turn effects both soil organisms and nutrient availability for pH reasons but also for chemical binding issues. What type of acids might come from beech versus spagnumm peat vs tropical rain forest I have not yet seen any material on.

Since you mention soil testing, I think it behooves us to realize two things. Any way most of us can test will not be following nor resulting in "standard" soil testing practices. I think then, that the key for us as hobbyists will be consistency with measurement. Let''s face it, few of us will have access to autoclaves, centrifuges, standard x. M solutions of KCl, etc. There are literally whole chapters (and even whole books) devoted to the "proper" and varied ways of testing soil pH. 

As an example, Chris says his soil (pod gop) is neutral and I seem to remember he mentioned someone in a lab tested it, though I could be wrong. My method of testing was to create a soil soup and moderately stir the probe until no further shifts were observed. I got pH 3.8 on day one and 4.0 on day 3. Testing the water in my setup shows a global min on pH of 5.0. The water is nanopure so that is not much of an estimate of the soil solution acidity.


----------



## dennis

Just to have it on record here, I injected some settled mulm into the soil of two pots, adding 15mls each using a long tube and a syringe

And because it is a neat story, I found a cherry shrimp in the mulm after it had been settling for ~ an hour in a mason jar. Crazy what they will live through.


----------



## SCMurphy

dennis said:


> I noticed that post and Tom's response a while after I posted my last one here. I found a few library books that related to organic soils. Not many spoke much about our particular situation but the overall jist seems to be that the parent material dictates the types of phenolic (humic) acids present in the soil. This in turn effects both soil organisms and nutrient availability for pH reasons but also for chemical binding issues. What type of acids might come from beech versus spagnumm peat vs tropical rain forest I have not yet seen any material on.
> 
> Since you mention soil testing, I think it behooves us to realize two things. Any way most of us can test will not be following nor resulting in "standard" soil testing practices. I think then, that the key for us as hobbyists will be consistency with measurement. Let''s face it, few of us will have access to autoclaves, centrifuges, standard x. M solutions of KCl, etc. There are literally whole chapters (and even whole books) devoted to the "proper" and varied ways of testing soil pH.
> 
> As an example, Chris says his soil (pod gop) is neutral and I seem to remember he mentioned someone in a lab tested it, though I could be wrong. My method of testing was to create a soil soup and moderately stir the probe until no further shifts were observed. I got pH 3.8 on day one and 4.0 on day 3. Testing the water in my setup shows a global min on pH of 5.0. The water is nanopure so that is not much of an estimate of the soil solution acidity.


I didn't mean to imply that we needed to do complete bioassays of the soil. When Kai drops his report on us you'll see what minimalistic testing I see us doing. Its his methodology that we should be consistent with when doing this. Its just basic stuff anyone at home can do.

Tom?? I can't thank him enough for directing us back into the box we are trying to test outside of. :frusty:

As to the parent material, after seeing the talks at the ECS I can say that they were all pointing at the beech tree litter from non limestone areas as the best (actually it was the beech trees in Emmen that were the best.) Same parent material but the geology made a difference. Looking at that coupled with the idea that not everyone lives near a beech tree forest we can do a very simple experiment: to see if it's the beech tree; or the lack of limestone; or further define that it is a relationship between the two; while at the same time we can find out if there is a useful substitute for beech tree lacking areas.

I understand the situation at the ECS, if it ain't broke you don't fix it, but what if that has them backed into a box? I only remember them testing beech tree litters. We need more options, I'm just trying to get help finding them. Chris' pond gop, (did we leave out an 'o', 'goop') and Edge's hydroponic technique are great options. I don't know exactly how to replicate Chris' gop but based on his success we should figure that out. Edge is willing to talk about his technique, which is something I think most people could do.

Did you go meet Al yet?


----------



## newellcr

Hello Dennis,

Yes, I have a crypt friend with access to a sophisticated lab. Frustratingly, the more I learn about pH, pure water, and the broad category of 'soils', I realize how little I do actually know. Also, my ignorance growth isn't linear, it's exponential. Measuring pH of a sample of water gets increasing difficult as the water is less buffered. It requires sophisticated equipment and needs to be done by someone with experience. The test kits that are readily available are of dubious worth at best and possibly useless at worst. But, what else do we have? 

Hello Sean,

I'll check out the AGA forum again. It would be nice to start filling out a data base on litter types, pH, and suitability for crypts. A real challenge is to determine which clones do well in which soils. Do the clones seem to need strong acidic conditions or do they seem to do ok in less acidic conditions? It's a big job and is subjective also. But it's fun to tinker with the plants, so let's do what we can. 

All I want for Christmas are a couple of bags of compost and some pond sludge!? Ha. Ha!

Kind Regards to All,

Chris


----------



## newellcr

Hello Sean,

We posted almost simultaniously… Possibly, I'm making too much of the analysis. I hope so, I guess. So, all I want for Christmas are a couple of bags of compost, some pond sludge, and Kai's testing procedures!? 

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## dennis

SCMurphy said:


> I didn't mean to imply that we needed to do complete bioassays of the soil. When Kai drops his report on us you'll see what minimalistic testing I see us doing. Its his methodology that we should be consistent with when doing this. Its just basic stuff anyone at home can do.


Ok, I'll leave all this stuff alone till Kai releases his findings (jab, hint, poke, just publish the book already, cough).



> I understand the situation at the ECS, if it ain't broke you don't fix it, but what if that has them backed into a box? I only remember them testing beech tree litters. We need more options, I'm just trying to get help finding them.


Cool! Sometimes a bit of an outside over-view can be good.



> Chris' pond gop, (did we leave out an 'o', 'goop')
> [/quote}
> 
> No, initially I had considered it with a short 'o', almost an 'a' rather than 'oo' as in book. Everyone is free to say what they want as I was only trying to be funny at first by using a completely unscientific sounding term. What amused me most was that others started using it also.
> 
> No, I have not met Al yet though my EnvirSci prof said she could get me in a greenhouse whenever I wanted.


----------



## SCMurphy

dennis said:


> No, I have not met Al yet though my EnvirSci prof said she could get me in a greenhouse whenever I wanted.


Kewl, go for it! Man, I miss those days.


----------



## DelawareJim

I wonder if the soil tests performed by our county extension service/State university would be worth considering? For a couple of bucks they perform all the analysis we might need and most can perform more sophisiticated tests for a dollar or so more per type.

All we would need to do is submit about 1/2 cup air-dried substrate and get back pH, P2O5, K2O, MgO, CaO, CEC, and % saturation of the CEC. And, best of all, most universities assign a test number and store the results report as a pdf document on their website so if we posted test numbers, we could access each others results for comparisons.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## SCMurphy

That sounds great Jim, I can see lots of good info there, but, there was something about Kai's work that'll make you go, "hmm, can't get that there."


----------



## SCMurphy

Dennis, 

Any luck with the greenhouse yet? The more I tinker and re-pot plants the more I wish I could find a greenhouse around here with a few square feet of space.


----------



## dennis

Not yet. I don't want to start something and then find I don't have the time for it. I doubt I would do anything like that till next semester. If you have a backyard, you should be able to make a nice, small one.


----------



## SCMurphy

In MD there is a bit of communism called HOA's (Home Owners Associations) that tend to prevent you from doing anything fun with your back yard like build green houses. I'll have to live vicariously through your project's when you get the chance.


----------



## dennis

Wow, another state I can't live in. You need to move

What about a low "hot bed" type setup?


----------



## ed seeley

> In MD there is a bit of communism called HOA's (Home Owners Associations) that tend to prevent you from doing anything fun with your back yard like build green houses. I'll have to live vicariously through your project's when you get the chance.


Are you serious? You can't have a greenhouse in your own back garden?
Land of the free?!!!!


----------



## HeyPK

Check your covenant. It should have specific rules on what you can and can not build in your back yard. Hard to believe they wouldn't allow a small greenhouse!


----------



## mrbelvedere138

Although it may not be technically "legal", would it even be something that would ever be reported, and if so would anyone even care?

It would be like fireworks. Not legal in our state, but no one cares.


----------



## ed seeley

Don't know if you can get these in the US, but what about one of these?

Two Wests - Timber mini-greenhouse

This one is wood framed, but you can get aluminium ones too. Might have to insulate them with another layer of twinwall polycarbonate to keep the heat in over winter, but on something this small that shouldn't be a problem cost-wise.

It's hardly an eyesore! Who would complain / know?


----------



## SCMurphy

Thanks guys, the HOA actually goes around twice a year and inspects everyones house (outside) so yes it would be noticed and seen and reported. We got a letter from them once telling us to power wash the dirt off the siding. It was paint splatter from the previous owners that was 10 years old. I hate living in MD.


----------



## DelawareJim

Ed;

Yeah, unfortunately Sean lives in a garden flat. I had the same problem in Delaware. We started replacing all the turf with flower beds and ornamental grasses to reduce the work and the association complained it looked too "wild" and said we had to put it back to look like everyone elses boring high maintenance yard. They're very particular about what you can and can't do out-of-doors. Everyone's afraid it will lower property values.

Unfortunately, they're starting to do this in single home developements too. So you have your choice; live in a development with the turf-nazi who wants everyone's garden to look like hers, or live in an older traditional neighborhood where no-one gives a flip what their yard looks like and hope you don't get a hillbilly next door.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## ed seeley

My god! Sorry guys, didn't realise.
They'd HATE me! Even my lawn has got species crocus in it to add extra colour! Not that there's much lawn in between the plant beds! That, two greenhouses and the 3,500 gallon Koi Pond would get me chucked out in no time at all!
Hope I never have to experience that kind of thing.


----------



## DelawareJim

What species of Crocus you growing in your lawn? I've got a couple hundred Tommies and Siberian squill scattered through out. They multiply much more readily for me in the mulch round the trees than out in the lawn. I think the grass gives the Crocuses too much competition although it certainly doesn't seem to slow down the squills. They'd be a weed if they weren't so pretty.

The Koi pond is my next project, after we fininsh rebuilding the deck and patio.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## SCMurphy

Back on the subject line. 

I potted everything up in the coir lined hyroponic pots that Jim showed to me. I have the plants in those seed trays with the high domed tops that you can get from greenhouse stores online, probably from your local nursery as well. About an inch of rain water in the tray. The plants are starting to look good again. I just used the leaf litter that I had them in before, only now it's more like a soil than a slurry.

The plant recovery inspired me so I also potted up a bunch of plants of questionable name from my aquariums and have them in a second dome lidded tray to see if they will flower and reveal their identities. It's like a game show at my house. My wife made me write down a guess for each plant to see how far off I am.


----------



## AaronT

I found those humidity domes at the garden center near my house after I saw them at your place Sean. I'm trying one out as an HC farm. My wife has dubbed it the "cash crop." She makes it seem so illegal. 

Anyhow, I really like the domes. I think I can fit 4 of them on one shelf and it's less weight than having tanks on there. ALso, they're cheap and effective. 

I'm trying a couple different plants in the coir lined pots too. The others were doing well in the clay pots so why move them? I'm trying the supposed griffithii that I posted a picture of in another thread and keei...yeah I know keei needs alkaline soil. I wanted to make sure.


----------



## ed seeley

DelawareJim said:


> What species of Crocus you growing in your lawn? I've got a couple hundred Tommies and Siberian squill scattered through out. They multiply much more readily for me in the mulch round the trees than out in the lawn. I think the grass gives the Crocuses too much competition although it certainly doesn't seem to slow down the squills. They'd be a weed if they weren't so pretty.
> 
> The Koi pond is my next project, after we fininsh rebuilding the deck and patio.
> 
> Cheers.
> Jim


Sorry to be off topic (this once, promise!)
Got _tomassinianus _too and _speciosus _(autumn crocus). They both leaf about the same time in late winter and i get two lots of flowers! Mind do too well in the lawn to be honest!

The pond and stream are hard work, but well worth it, just rebuilt the gravity filter with a huge vortex filter, brushes, flocor and a trickle filter. Take your time and think very long and hard about it! trust me much, much harder to change it afterwards (I speak from 6 weeks of concreting and digging out again this summer!)

Anyway, back to the crypts....


----------

