# CSM-B vs. Flourish/Flourish Iron



## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

I was wondering what Te or trace method people prefer. I know the Flourish is much more expensive, but what is better or more complete trace fert? Anyone ever mixed the csm-b and flourish/flourish iron to cut down on cost?


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

You can compare their contents here:

http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.asp

Personally I found better results using Flourish however my results with CSM+B were inferior to the results I see others acchieve with it.

Giancarlo


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## TomE (Jul 24, 2004)

I'm with Giancarlo. I seem to do better w/flourish. I normally order it 2l to reduce cost in a long run. But I don't have a really green thumb so any help is good for me.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi guys, I know flourish is a more complete fert, but the price is way more expensive. Plus its so low on iron you would have to add the flourish iron to cover. I was wondering if anyone has used the flourish and the combined with the CSM-b mainly for the iron? I found the 2l flourish bottles for 20 bucks, so I am going to try it and mix it with the CSM-b, i just want to know the mix %.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I tried mixing and matching them too, 50:50 for some time to avoid wasting the CSM mixture I had made up. Worked better for me than CSM on it's own, then I started using Flourish Iron. Have to admit though that even Flourish on it's own is just fine, it may be lower than CSM in iron but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain enough of it...

Giancarlo


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

what sort of dosing do u use on flourish? I have seen a wide range of figures some as high as 30 ml every 2 days. I have an 80 gallon tank.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

My 55 gal (4wpg) gets 10ml Flourish, 10ml Flourish FE, 5ml Vita once a week or at times every other week when I delay water changes for a week.

Giancarlo Podio


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

I am using CSM+B for the trace+iron and supplement with flourish iron.

I believe I am experiencing trace deficiency problems and I start to believe that it has to do with CSM+B.

As for the iron - the CSM+B iron is in the chelated form and therefore it becomes available to the plants slowly by the light breaking the chelate. My experience with my 2.6 wpg is that I cannot apply more than 0.03 ppm Fe per day. If I dose more then the chelate starts accumulating. I did a survey once and people do dose 0.2-0.3 ppm fe so I am adding flourish iron - this one is available to the plants and disappears in few hours.

As for the trace that is manganese, zinc, molybdenum etc - CSM+B is more concentrated but I am not sure that the traces are in the available form.

If you read here:

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/resmgmt/publist/600series/631011-1.pdf



> Manganese sulfate (MnSO4) has been found
> by researchers to be the most effective fertilizer for
> supplying Mn to crops.





> Chelated forms of Mn should not be applied to the
> soil. Research has found that those forms may in
> fact make the Mn deficiency worse.


Or here:

http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Mn_Basics.htm



> NOTE: It has been reported that if a Mn-chelate (EDTA) is added to the soil to correct an apparent deficiency problem, the most common result is increased Mn deficiency. This occurs because the affinity of chelates for Iron is greater than their affinity for Manganese and substitution occurs. The Fe-chelate is rapidly taken up by the plant and the ensuing interaction increases the Mn deficiency.


Seachem flourish does use MnSO4.

I shall probably try flourish and also get my own traces - I feel I need to gain better control on what's going on in my tank.

Aviel.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Hey gpodio when you dose your Flourish and Flourish Fe and vita do you do that all at once, or space it out through the week? I figured I should dose about 15ml due to the tank size difference. I am a little leary about dosing th Fe though-afraid of the algea outbreak it coulkd cause. I am dealing with a thread algea prob right now. What is in ur vita? DO you think I should dose more Flourish if I am uncomfortable dosing the extra Fe? Or should I just dose the Fe as well?


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

That's going to be hard to say, I'd suggest starting with Flourish on it's own and when the tank is running decent, try to add FE and see if you get better results. I dose everything at once BTW.

Giancarlo Podio


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## gregwatson (May 24, 2004)

chiahead said:


> Hi guys, I know flourish is a more complete fert, but the price is way more expensive. Plus its so low on iron you would have to add the flourish iron to cover. I was wondering if anyone has used the flourish and the combined with the CSM-b mainly for the iron? I found the 2l flourish bottles for 20 bucks, so I am going to try it and mix it with the CSM-b, i just want to know the mix %.


One of the most common observations I see in many of the email's I get is the "concentration" of the solutions many of us make when we make our own micro nutrient solution.

For comparison purposes, one of the most common concentrations that we make with Plantex CSM is using 1 Tablespoon of Plantex CSM in 500 ml of water. This yields a solution that is approximately 80% as concentrated as the equivalent Flourish (using Iron as a comparison point) ...

Thus for a solution of this concentration, we would need to dose 1.25 ml of the solution to be comparable to 1 ml of Flourish ...

In many cases, a recommendation to increase the dosing quantity has achieved the desired results ...

I know when I first switched to Plantex CSM at first I was not satisfied with the results. Then I started doing a little research and found Steve Pituch's site which provides WONDERFUL technical details ... the math from that point clearly showed that I wasn't making an apples to apples comparison ... and an increase in dosing quickly gave me the desired results ...

For a quick summary you can read my page How To Dose Plantex CSM at http://www.gregwatson.com/HowToDosePlantex.htm .

Greg


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Greg Watson, I was surprized to see your post. I admire what you have done and the research I have found on the PMDD.Thanks. Just a question, what about the ingredients that are in Flourish that are not in CSM+B. I use this site as a reference:
http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.asp

that link u posted has a list for addign 1 tablespoon of CSM+B and 1 tablespoon ok magnesium sulfate with water. Why do all the posts I see add Mg? What about calcium? Isnt the calcium/Magnesium ration supposed to be 4:1? Just curious as my substrate seems to psuh alot of Mg into it form the Eco and Onxy Sand. It also puts Ca in but not nearly as much and I think the plants comsume this more. Also, what are your thoughts on Aviel's post about the chelated ferts compared to the soluable or more avail form?


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Greg?


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## gregwatson (May 24, 2004)

chiahead said:


> Hi Greg Watson, I was surprized to see your post.


<grin> ... I'm usually pretty quiet ...



chiahead said:


> Just a question, what about the ingredients that are in Flourish that are not in CSM+B. I use this site as a reference:
> http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.asp


There are archive discussions on that going back quite aways. The person who could probably best answer that question just might be Mr. Steve P.

I had an interesting conversation with Mr. Barr as he went through a heirarchy of nutrient deficiencies at the AGA conference. He was able to simplify what I consider to be higher order deficiencies starting with light, CO2, macros, iron, and then a long list a micros ... it was my perception that (in general), by the time we encounter a deficiency in the lower order of traces that the magnitude is so small as to almost be inconsequential. There are a million and one scientific reasons why my "perception" is technically wrong, but in practice, I believe it to be true ...

Just like some of the underlying PMDD assumptions have been proven to be "technically wrong" for example in the context of limiting a macro nutrient to limit algae growth ... still the strategy works in practice because it does a pretty good job of "feeding" our plants the nutrients they need in the right ratios ...

There are many people who have used the Plantex CSM+B/Magnesium Sulfate combination over the last decade ... and in practice ... it works ... and there are probably dozens of different reasons why it works for "most" people ...

And hopefully I'm not quoting gpodio TOO much out of context, but just recently he wrote: "but of course we must also consider the ratios and which items are there as impurities or otherwise already present in tap water, making their presence of little importance to most of us." I suspect that there is a huge golden nugget of truth in that comment ...



chiahead said:


> that link u posted has a list for addign 1 tablespoon of CSM+B and 1 tablespoon ok magnesium sulfate with water. Why do all the posts I see add Mg?


In most cases, Plantex does not have enough Magnesium in it in terms of its relationship/ratio to other micro nutrients ...



chiahead said:


> What about calcium? Isnt the calcium/Magnesium ration supposed to be 4:1?


I don't personally know the answer to this one <grin> ... carbonate hardness is not a problem I have to worry about with my tap water <GRIN>!!!!



chiahead said:


> Also, what are your thoughts on Aviel's post about the chelated ferts compared to the soluable or more avail form?


There are two different kinds of chelators and I can't explain how they work. And if I understand it correctly, Flourish is the only commercial aquatic trace formulation that uses an Iron Gluconate form of Iron rather than a chelated version(?) [I am not sure about this at all ...] ...

So ... with that very fuzzy and confused disclaimer <GRIN>!!! I don't think the comparison is an apples to apples comparison ... it might be a fair question to pose about alternative formulations of Iron ... but then the comparison is between Flourish and all of the other commercial and non-commercial sources for trace elements ...

However, I would caution, **Don't** take anything I'm saying wrong, I personally like the Flourish entire line of products better than anyone else's out there ...

I often recommend the entire Flourish, Flourish Nitrogen, Flourish Phosphourous, and Flourish Potassium line to people as the "best" solution for their unique situation ...

However, for many of us that choose to pursue a DIY approach consistent with the ageless Poor Man's Dosing Drop's do it yourself strategy ... the Plantex CSM+B and Magnesium Sulfate approach is an excellent alternative ...

But back to your question about Aviel ... I'm not personally convinced that the real question shouldn't be about our "current thinking" about what the appropriate Iron level should be ...

Back when I was using Flourish, I usually had to dose supplemental Iron about twice a month ... when I switched to Plantex CSM+B ... I still usually dose supplemental Iron ...

So when we are thinking broadly about the concept of dosing the right ratio of nutrients to meet the unique nutrient uptake requirement of our plants ... the key is to make sure that whatever product we are using, that we dose the right ratio of ingredients to meet the unique nutrient requirements of our unique aquarium .....

Greg


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