# Why is C. nuri so hard to grow?



## HeyPK

Has anybody had any success growing it? Propagating it??? Is it easier submersed or emersed?


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## SCMurphy

I got what is supposed to be C. nurii from Dr. Prescott about 4 years ago. I had it in one of the 30 gallon tanks I just took down. It held on for about a year before it started to spread, then it got very pretty and numerous.

I moved it over to my 75 gallon crypt forest, almost a year ago, it is doing the same thing, just kinda haging on, it should 'blossom' in a month or two based on my experience. 

Never tried it, or any crypt, emersed.


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## HeyPK

Pictures of it in the wild usually show it submersed. So you really got it to propagate! That's great. What sort of growing conditions did it have (Light, CO2, substrate, crowding or lack of it, etc.)? Do you have a picture?


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## ranmasatome

i had 2 plantlets of this in my low tech tank non-co2 tank when i started out.. seemed to be reallys ensitive plants. They react to even change in lighting intensity. Just about a month ago decided to shift them and lo and behold.. in about 2 weeks after that another plantlet grew out from their old location!! i now have 3 of them close together..and growing well.. all are submersed with nice red leaves.. I dont dose any ferts at all for this tank..jsut topping up with the old water from the high tech every weekend and tahts as much maintenance i do on this tank.


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## standoyo

i really like this plant. i just bought 5 bunches for a song yesterday... it's already in my apisto tank...

anyway crypts are generally sensitive. total meltdown is not unheard of, but generally grows back if the roots are not affected. so slowwww.

read somewhere it's copper sensitive.


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## Xema

I am not many experimented with this sp. 
But i was studing it many time... It´s growing in fast flow stream in most time, and submerged too. So it lives in fast flow stream and river, the soil is not rich in Organic Matter, the most stuff present in is sand and other mineral elements.










But in some place in Sumatra nurii grows in swamp forest with not fast water flow.

Basing in this observations, I am growing my nurii, in a sandy soil, with some acid element as granulated peat and akadama clay to get a acid reaction into the soil. The pot is half-covered with revers osmosis water. I am keeping ph around 5,5 for all my ''uncommon" crypts, but providing a special soil for each sp., mixing some elementes as peat, leaf-mud, clay, sand you can get a rigth soil for every plant. And i allways use partcles above 3 mm, providing a wonderful air flow between the soil mixture (quite important in emersed condition). The water flow within the tank is importat to keep hight grade of O2 dissolved into the water.

Cryptocoryne nurii Furtabo from Sg Batang Pinang Johor MALAY PENISULA, Rayon Vert Aqua, Japan 

Greets


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## travis

I've had several plantlets of C. nurii that I've been keeping in my grow-out tank (CO2 supplemented, 3 wpg, sand/Flourite substrate, pH 6.7, KH 6-7, GH 8-9) for about five months now and they show no signs of doing much at all. They have only been putting out enough new growth to keep up with leaf die-off and are still quite small. I'm not sure what sort of conditions C. nurii prefers but I suspect it might like a more acidic substrate than I am providing it. I would be curious to know what sort of submersed growth conditions anyone has had good luck with.


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## plantbrain

It is an easy plant to grow emegernt, it barely grew after 2 years and I gave up and put in the emergent tank, bam!, it grew well and flowered etc.

It really is not for submersed culture like C lingua and some others.

You can try it and see how long it hangs on, but it's not really going to grow a lot ever without being above the water's surface.

Nice flower though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Phil Edwards

Mine sent out a few runners growing emersed. I never had the guts to try growing some of the more expensive and/or rare species submerged. All of mine were growing in a mix of potting soil and sand under a two strip T-12 shop light. 

Regards,
Phil


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## Xema

plantbrain said:


> It is an easy plant to grow emegernt, it barely grew after 2 years and I gave up and put in the emergent tank, bam!, it grew well and flowered etc.
> 
> It really is not for submersed culture like C lingua and some others.
> 
> You can try it and see how long it hangs on, but it's not really going to grow a lot ever without being above the water's surface.
> 
> Nice flower though.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I my opinion, C. nurii is wellknown bad emersed grower, if it is easy to grow emersed, plant nurseries would be culturing them and flooding the shops with them.
C. nurii is a plant which grows in acid and soft fast flowing streams, most of the time submerged... only in the dry season, a down water level provides good blooming condition.

Cyptocoryne nurii growing sumerged in Sungai Kahang, Johor, Malaysia (note the long size of the leaf)









Cryptocoryne nurii growing emerged in the same location, but growing on the river bank in patch of sand. (note the bad health of the leaves)









A weak specimen emerged









C. nurii is not a usual emerged grower, and it grows in waters very acid, soft and rich in oxigen (due to the fast flowing water). this conditions are quite different to the most of our tanks.

C. lingula cann´t grow sudmerged in a long term beacause it´s a marshall plant such as C. ciliata


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## SCMurphy

Soil/clay substrate capped with chick grit, 75 gallon tank, CO2 injected in the sump pump, no water column dosing, 4 T-8 bulbs ODNO staggered for 4 hour peak in middle of day.

My nuri, assuming it was correctly named when I puchased it. It's the dark leaved crypt in the middle ground. Ignore the C. ustrania in the background, it likes to show off.










For fun, a pair of happy C. tonkinensis.









I'm planning on scolding them both for daring to thrive underwater. Right after I'm done telling my nerite snails that they aren't supposed to be eating the algae.


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## HeyPK

Thanks a lot for the pictures and the info on the C. nuri. I am going to try to get some and try again. I think I will try both submersed and emersed. 

Are you sure that is tonkinensis? It looks just like albida!


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## MiamiAG

I second Xema's comments. 

I tried forever to grow nurii emersed in my hydroponic greenhouse without any success. I even tried moving it into its own container with very acid water to see if that would work. The plant didn't die, but it grow very slowly and became a very weak specimen.

Xema's comments on lingua are interesting. Has anyone had good, long-term success with that plant in a submersed environment?


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## SCMurphy

Yep that's a tonk, my _albida_ is 8 to 10 inched taller. That picture is of a pair of 2-inch tall plants. The small green plant hugging the substrate to the right is HC and the taller stem to the back right is _Elatine triandra. 
_


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## Xema

SCMurphy,

I am not an expert on nurii, but your doesn´t look as nurii for me.

Nuri hasn´t bullated leaves... your does.

Nurii hasn´t heart shape in the union of the blade with the petiole, your looks has it.










Please, can you take more close picture of the leaf?


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## HeyPK

Art said:


> Xema's comments on lingua are interesting. Has anyone had good, long-term success with that plant in a submersed environment?


I have. I have never tried to grow it emersed. It sends out runners a few times a year, and seems to be quite tolerant if I am not giving it CO2. Every academic year a time comes sooner or later when I totally neglect my tanks for months. C. lingua seems to tolerate neglect better than many crypts.


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## SCMurphy

Xema,

I can't positively ID the plant, but looking at the pictures you posted and the ones on Jan's site I think that it's probably right. The leaves can be softly bullate and the plant can have both forms of the leaves that you illustrate, on the same plant in my tanks. We have a microbiologist in the club and he and I are going to be doing chromosome counts on the plants I have. I'm also planning on trying to grow a few plants in very shallow to emersed conditions this year to get flowers. Eventually, I'll find out for certain that I have 30 varieties of wendtii.


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## HeyPK

I will be most interested to see how the chromosome counts come out. I would also like to know the procedures your friend will be using to do the chromosome counts. I am thinking of doing some on my own.


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## Xema

From where did you get your nurii?


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## HeyPK

Here is a picture from the endless galleries of Rayon Vert Aqua of a closeup of a growing leaf of C. nuri. The strong, dark cross markings on the leaf are characteristic of the species and distinguish it from any variety of C. wendtii. Also, there are small red marks, parallel with the veins. These are not very apparent in this picture, but older leaves show them more clearly.


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## plantbrain

I'd have to agree with Xema, that does not look like nurii.
Those leaves are unmistakable.

I'm surprise you folks had trouble with nurii emergent.
That and lingua were so easy to flower.

1/3 sand, 1/3 peat, 1/3 potting soil, right blow the crown, lots of nutrient rich water, 1.5-2w/gal, covered lids.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ibn

Leaf from one of the newly acquired C. nurii.


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## Kai Witte

Ibn said:


> Leaf from one of the newly acquired C. nurii.


Yup, that's a good example!


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## Ibn

How long will this plant continue to grow on reserves? Just noticed that one of the smaller leaves doubled in size on one of the plants.

Edit: Make that two of the leaves. Both of the smaller leaves has doubled in size on one of the plants.


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## Jane in Upton

I'm so grateful to this forum!

I found a source for C. nurii and C. lingua, and will be getting some of each in the next few weeks. 

So, I've been reading as much as possible. HeyPK, it seems your experience is that the C. lingua is more tolerant of conditions than C. nurii - or at least plastic containers (btw - you can always make a crypt casserole in those nice pyrex dishes, eh?). 

How tolerant of other nearby plants, or even other crypts are these (allelopathy)? I'm trying to figure out if I should place them in buried pots of their own soil, and then, if the pots should be fired clay (the "normal" terra cotta plant pots, just very small ones) or plastic. Or... I don't know where to get them, but I've seen short little glass dishes with straight sides, like a cylinder slice, 1.5" tall by 3-4" diameter, used with a damp sponge (saw this at the PO). 

I did an "experiment" awhile back in one of my tanks. In one corner I put C. 'balansae' in a thin plastic dish with extra-rich soil (added a bit of composted goat manure and a bit of long strand sphagnum peat). In the other corner, I planted some corkscrew vals in a "thin" soil mix - extra quartz sand, some porus shultz "aquatic soil" (kiln fired, expanded clay) and some ooidic sand (Calcium carbonate). Of course, it was a last-minute thing, so I spaced on having any "control" in the usual soil-underlayer, for comparison. 

The C. 'balansae' seemed to settle in even more slowly than I would have expected, but once it started growing, it got a nice copper midrib, and excellent leaf color and integrity. 

Sorry, I'm getting off topic. 

So, what recommendations would you have for planting these two crypts?
Thanks very much!
-Jane

PS - they're a Pre-Order item by emailed request only on the "Announcement" page (alongside FAQs, Shipping, etc. tabs) of AZ Gardens, not in the regular plant sections. I just happened to stumble across the info. At $1.99 each, I'll try a few!


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## HeyPK

Jane,

My experiences with _C. lingua_ is that it is relatively easy to grow submersed, but there are many other reports that it can't be grown underwater at all for any length of time. I don't think I am doing anything special; I can't explain the disparity. _C lingua_ likes an open situation without anything shading it. It does not seem to be able to grow longer leaves if shaded. It sends out runners, and, under good growing conditions a single plant can produce three to five new plants a year. _C. lingua_ appears not to be sensitive to the type of soil (high in organic mater or low in organic matter) under the gravel.

My experiences with _C. nuri_ submersed have been as bad as most people report. I usually get a small to tiny little plant that hangs on for a long time, never getting any larger.

I have had some bad experiences growing plants in plastic trays. I am pretty sure that the plastic is the source of some kind of substance or substances that cause the plant to grow poorly or even die back. I only see this adverse effect of plastic on some species. My C. crispatula var. balansae died on me when I had it in a plastic tray, although most other crypts have not been affected as far as I can tell. I only use glass trays now, just so I don't have to worry about possible plastic poisoning.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Paul,



> My experiences with _C. lingua_ is that it is relatively easy to grow submersed, but there are many other reports that it can't be grown underwater at all for any length of time.


Well, the latter is obviously wrong. 



> I don't think I am doing anything special; I can't explain the disparity.


I guess you have good plant growth in general, Paul. Many people can't claim as much. My experience is that if an tank supports healthy plant growth and has enough light then _lingua_ will usually do well, too.



> _C lingua_ likes an open situation without anything shading it. It does not seem to be able to grow longer leaves if shaded. It sends out runners, and, under good growing conditions a single plant can produce three to five new plants a year. _C. lingua_ appears not to be sensitive to the type of soil (high in organic mater or low in organic matter) under the gravel.


I'd second that. It's quite a heavy feeder for a crypt and doesn't seem to require special water parameters.



> My experiences with _C. nuri_ submersed have been as bad as most people report. I usually get a small to tiny little plant that hangs on for a long time, never getting any larger.


Obviously _nurii_ can only utilize free carbon dioxide, so you need to dose the right amount and/or switch to e.g. DI or rainwater. I'm growing it in acid blackwater which seems to work ok - it could probably use more light than I'm currently offering though.



> I have had some bad experiences growing plants in plastic trays. I am pretty sure that the plastic is the source of some kind of substance or substances that cause the plant to grow poorly or even die back. I only see this adverse effect of plastic on some species. My C. crispatula var. balansae died on me when I had it in a plastic tray, although most other crypts have not been affected as far as I can tell. I only use glass trays now, just so I don't have to worry about possible plastic poisoning.


A rule of thumb: You don't want to use plastic which stinks after pouring boiling water over it. (However, the reverse isn't necessarily true.)

So far, I haven't had any problems with horticultural plastic pots (higher quality grades) which I use quite a lot.


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## EDGE

Kai,



> Obviously nurii can only utilize free carbon dioxide, so you need to dose the right amount and/or switch to e.g. DI or rainwater. I'm growing it in acid blackwater which seems to work ok - it could probably use more light than I'm currently offering though.


When you say the right amount, do you mean high lvl of CO2 so CO2 doesn't seperate and bond with other elements?

I am about to put a nurii in my 75G running at 5.9 pH, 3 gH, 0-1 kH.

EDGE


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## aquaverde

Ibn said:


> Leaf from one of the newly acquired C. nurii.


I had no idea this plant was so attractive. Nice pic.


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## ianiwane

my plant seems to growing fine. It does not seem like that hard of a plant to grow.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Jane,



> I found a source for C. nurii and C. lingua, and will be getting some of each in the next few weeks.


I don't want to sound too pathetic but please realize that these are plants collected from nature. There's a reasonable chance to get lingua going but the nurii are doomed unless you can provide a tank specially optimized for this species' requirements (which we don't understand too well either).



> How tolerant of other nearby plants, or even other crypts are these (allelopathy)?


I'd posit that allelopathy is one of your least worries. 

_C. lingua_ prefers quite some light so you don't want other plants to shade it.

_C. nurii_ also responds favorably to good light conditions, so you don't want to shade it unless you have a very high light intensity to begin with. IMHO your best bet for submersed culture of this species would be to provide a tank with pure DI water (RO, rainwater), acid pH (4-5.5), and some decent current. We'd also need to consider your experience when thinking about a suitable soil mix...

Please excuse my rant: :rant:


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## Aaron

One experiment I've been wanting to do for a while is documenting the affects of current on the growth of plants like nurii and bullosa. If you look at all the pictures of these plants in the wild, they reside in what looks like quickly moving water. Could this be the key? Looking at the standard method of keeping crypts (emersed etc) does not really emulate what is seen in nature. Even when planted submersed in an aquascape, the flow never reaches the levels seen in nature. Any comments on this?


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## Kai Witte

EDGE said:


> When you say the right amount, do you mean high lvl of CO2 so CO2 doesn't seperate and bond with other elements?


Yes, kinda. However, several people reported crypt problems with average CO2 dosing so you'd probably try to avoid high CO2 levels (I've hardly had any experience with CO2 vs. crypts). My approach is to provide low to average CO2 and avoid/tweak alkalinity (=KH) if needed.



> I am about to put a nurii in my 75G running at 5.9 pH, 3 gH, 0-1 kH.


IMHO pH could be (slightly) lower, GH doesn't matter that much, and KH should be zero or as close as possible. Good luck!


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## Kai Witte

Hello Aaron,



> One experiment I've been wanting to do for a while is documenting the affects of current on the growth of plants like nurii and bullosa. Looking at the standard method of keeping crypts (emersed etc) does not really emulate what is seen in nature. Even when planted submersed in an aquascape, the flow never reaches the levels seen in nature. Any comments on this?


It works.


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## ianiwane

Like I said, I'm growing it fine in aquasoil. Its throwing up new leaves regularly. KH and GH around 2 ph in the high 5s to low 6s.


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## Kai Witte

ianiwane said:


> Like I said, I'm growing it fine in aquasoil. Its throwing up new leaves regularly. KH and GH around 2 ph in the high 5s to low 6s.


Sorry, I didn't want to ignore you! I assume you're dosing CO2?

Could you please post a pic of your nurii?


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## ianiwane

Here it is. I'm injecting quite a bit of co2. I was just stating that it is possible to grow.


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## Jane in Upton

Its lovely Ianiwade. What is that stem plant behind it (to the left) with the interesting, alternating kind of rounded, spearhead shaped leaves? I really like the look of that.

So do any of you think that C. nurii needs a less rich soil - the point about its natural habitat being in a central area of a riverbed, with a pretty good current (from the looks of the picture) is very different from the "regular" Crypt description of their location in slow-moving areas at the waters' edge. I was planning to position this plant in stronger current because of this. 

Yeah, I guess allelopathy WILL be the least of my worries, LOL! I've just noticed it with a few other plants, so its been "in the forefront" of my mind lately.

That is very interesting about the plastic. I know a lot of plastics outgas for quite awhile. Personally, I've gotten rid of all my teflon cookware, and use highly polished stainless steel now. But most restaurants use exclusively teflon cookware, so its more ubiquitous in our diet than anyone really realizes. OK, way off topic (and in danger of becoming a rant, LOL!)

So, I'm probably going to use low clay "bulb pans" for the crypts. It is porous, so it won't be totally isolated, but I can tweak the substrate for them. I usually have pretty good luck with crypts, so I'm looking forward to giving these two a try.

I do realize the C. nurii will be wild-collected, and the transition will be that much greater (than for plants from an aquarium situation). I have had good results with plants that I have been cautioned would NOT do well in a low-tech setup, or which have been labelled "difficult". I have glosso spreading happily at a moderate pace without CO2, and Cyperus helferi tossing out runners in every direction. I also have Bylxa japonica growing nicely, without ferts or CO2. I do understand that acquiring these plants will be a bit of a gamble, but I learn best by doing, and I'd still like to give them a try.


Thanks for all the great information!
-Jane


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## ianiwane

Jane the stem plant is Polygonum muricatum. Its a really cool looking plant. Kind of picky though. For no reason at all sometimes the plant just melts. No one that I have spread it to in SFBAAPS has been able to grow it. Just a couple of months ago mine melted to just one or two stems.


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## Kai Witte

Thanks, Ianiwane. Congrats!


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## Kai Witte

Hello Jane,



> So do any of you think that C. nurii needs a less rich soil - the point about its natural habitat being in a central area of a riverbed, with a pretty good current


It's growing moderately slow, so it doesn't need as much as you'd offer an _Echinodorus_ (BTW, _lingua_ seems to be a rather heavy feeder). But it will surely benefit from decent nutrient availability in the soil. Potted in a regular planted tank, I'd opt for a little clay (including iron hydroxides and other mineral deposits) and about 50% peat granules (presoak in DI water). Personally I try to avoid utilizing any peat but it will help under these conditions. Use any top dressing of your choice but make sure to avoid introducing any carbonates into the soil mix.



> OK, way off topic (and in danger of becoming a rant, LOL!)


I just couldn't let the opportunity pass to add that nice smilie: :rant:



> I also have Bylxa japonica growing nicely, without ferts or CO2.


Same tank? That's certainly a good sign!



> I do understand that acquiring these plants will be a bit of a gamble, but I learn best by doing, and I'd still like to give them a try.


Fair enough since you've tried to do some research on these.


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## plantbrain

I have had good success thus far with my nurii in ADA AS. 
No stunted smaller leaves, good growth.
The same is true for C parva.

Generally these two do poorly in many more inert substrates.
C. lingua is next.

Kai, CO2 kicks butt underwater when it comes to Crypts, affinis as well.
So does ADA AS.

I will say that most common crypts that have a long history being used submersed do well, but a few species seem to have some preference for more Organic matter, texture and NH4+.

Providing good nutrient content in both the water column and the substrate will provide the best overall method for success of many species.

This applies to both sub and emergent growth methods and agriculture in general.

The issue with soil is that it does supply NH4+, but it does so with very anaerobic conditions.

The ADA soil does so by occluding NH4 inside each packet of grain, this allows O2 down into the substrate to help roots but still provides them with NH4. Over time, the O2 flow will clog due to mulm in such substrates(and light vacuuming once a year is useful to unclogged this) and adding O2 will consume the NH4 through bacterial oxidation.
But as time passed, the trade off for the clogging is well established root systems in which is able to transport larger amounts of O2 to the root zone.

I think many Crypts that are grown above the water and have more trouble submersed has issues not with CO2 transfer, rather, O2 transport to the root zone.

Emergent:
The plants have less trouble with this in soil, which has no O2, but provides plenty if NH4+
With ADA substrate you have both but the O2 is less on an issue.

Submersed: 
Plants + soil have very anaerobic conditions making it harder for good growth and long term succewss since the roots need O2 and can only transport through the water at a much lower ppm internally.
With ADA soil, you still get the NH4+ but you also get good O2 till the roots are well established.

This idea is also supported by what I call "companion plants".

I'm doing a substrate article in about 2-3 months on this effect.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## EDGE

Just like to add my hydroton experiment result to Tom and his O2 transport explanation/theory.

Although my wendtii 'Tropica' is not exactly a rare and finicky crypt, after 5 months of growing from a frail plant, my emersed wendtii 'Tropica' grown in hydroton is sending out 6" long leaf with 4" being the leaf blade. I only have 110 watt PC over 75G. This is not a super charge environment with CO2, high tech hydroponic design, costant fiddling with nutrients. I only change the water once a week using tap water and the usual NO3-PO4-K-Ca-Mg-Te into the water. I am using an old formula Edward gave me for emersed setup.

I would like to figure out why this wendtii 'Tropica' hasn't send out any plantlet or flower yet. It just keep on growing and growing.

My original emersed wendtii mi oya (grown in hydroton) melted from the initial adjustment to the nutrients level; however, the plantlet next to the original plant caught up to the wendtii mi oya grown in gravel. This plantlet is getting bigger with each new leaf compare to the plant grown in gravel.

ADD: This just hit me, what if most of the crypts send out plantlet because they are either low on light, or low on nutrients; thus, they start sending out plantlet to increase nutrients uptake in the surrounding area? 

Maybe if nutrients and O2 were reduce for a month, this could caused the matured plant to send out plantlet?


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## plantbrain

Try adding more PO4 and NO3, it should flower and never stop.
If you can add NH4 to the hydroponic set up, it'll certainly flow as long as you keep good nutrient levels and flush the sump out every 2 weeks or so.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jane in Upton

Thanks for your input, Kai! I will be sure to include a bit of iron-rich clay (I've had decent results making my own mini "laterite balls" out of red potters clay - its rich in iron, and because of human health concerns, I know its been tested for lead, talc and other contaminants like pesticides). 

I'll not add any calcium carbonate (oodic sand) to the mix. Do you think a pinch of CaCl would be worth adding to the mix, or just rely on Ca from the water column?

Hmmm, Hydroton is the orchid substrate made of balls of fired clay, right? Even the smallest size is still the size of peas - that's pretty large. Edge, did you use ONLY Hydroton for these plants? If the issue was texture, I wonder if adding some Shultz Aquatic "Soil" would be beneficial in a soil-based substrate - its basically the same material, highly porous with lots of surface area, but in a fractured granule form, rather than a rounded ball form. Orchids need the interstitial spaces in proportion to their root size, so the rounded form makes good sense. 

That's interesting that your plant hasn't set any runners. I know several terrestrial plants won't send out runners until they're pot-bound, or slightly stressed in some way. Its thought to be a survival technique. I wonder if there is any correlation with crypts? Your plant is "too" happy, or unconstrained?

Interesting.
-Jane


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## EDGE

I am not 100% sure if hydroton is used as an orchid substrate, but I never had too much sucess with hydroton and orchid. I think the orchids were drying out too fast in hydroton. 

I only use hydroton for plants that are heavy root feeder with large root system. hydroton didn't work well for stem plants because of the smaller root system. I had a much harder time getting stem plants to root, and they would still wobble around quite a bit.

I didn't choose hydroton for the texture. I used them for their size and ability to have water flow move through the pot. They are almost 100% free draining. Water doesn't stay in the pot when I lift the pot out. 

Pea size gravel should work, but I am not sure if the non rounded edges would reduce the water flow through the pot.

When I changed the nutrient ratio which included NH4SO4, I was getting quite a bit of under curl on the leaves. I wasn't sure what caused the under curl. I switched back to Edward's formula and stopped adding NH4SO4 and that solve the under curl on the leaves.


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## Jane in Upton

Yeah, the hydroton is meant for a "Semi-Hydroponic" situation for orchids. There are special pots, where the bottom is solid (to hold a reservoir of liquid) and the upper 2/3rds is ventilated. The Hydroton has a certain amount of wicking action, so it keeps the orchid roots in a state of very high humidity, while allowing air (and oxygen) to contact them. The size needs to correlate with the root size - the smallest Hydroton for thin-rooted orchids like Miltoniopsis, and the largest for thick-rooted ones like Phalanopsis. This method does require constant monitoring though, because if the reservoir dries out, there is very little moisture retained by these fired clay balls. Of course, they get a lot lighter when this happens, so a sure-fire way to know you need to refill the reservoir is when the Miltoniopsis on your desk, leaning slightly towards the window, makes a swan dive onto the floor out of its hyrdoton nest, LOL!

So are these fully submerged crypts you're been discussing, or semi-emergent? I think I may have been assuming the wrong conditions. I'll have to go back and re-read it with a different "starting point"!!

Hmmmm.
-Jane


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## EDGE

This is fully emersed. The hydroton will float if there is the pot is below water. I only keep 1 1/2" of water in the tank. just above the opening on the side of the mesh pot and enough to keep the powerhead submersed. The only thing even in contact with water is the root. Rhizome is usually above the water line in the pot.

I didn't take a photo of the setup but the idea is the same as most of the common setup you see using clay pot and 1 - 2" of water. The difference is the use mesh pot and hydroton instead of peat/sand, potting soil, and any other organic mixture. I do add a higher level of nutrients into the water. around 100 ppm NO3 once a week as an example.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Jane,



> Do you think a pinch of CaCl would be worth adding to the mix, or just rely on Ca from the water column?


There will be more than enough calcium/magnesium in the water (and most likely also a decent amount available from the clay), so no need to add any.

Tom, I'll respond to your postings when I find a little more time...


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