# Accident into Iwagumi! please critique



## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

Due to an unfortunate encounter with a large M. mattogrossens rootball during topping, I went from crystal clear water in my ADA 60-P to café au lait in ~5 sec. helped along by filter that was running when I was trimming :doh::doh:. In a panic, I quickly moved all my livestock into 5 gallon buckets in the garage, with no apparent casualties. Rather than risk battling an algae bloom, I tore down my tank and started from scratch.

I decided against recreating the previous "sand river" effect http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/49176-mistakes-trial-error-novice-ada-60p.html in favor of a simpler layout in the Iwagumi style as illustrated in the 2008 ADA catalog. As a beginner, I am not trying for something original, just something in the style of the masterrayer:.

The hardscape consists of Amazonia II, Powersand S, Tourmaline BC and Yamaya stones. I used a much thinner layer of AS than recommended in their How-to-layout-making manual (2.5 cm front to 5 cm back). The plan is to have the HC carpet and something tall and grassy in the background like E. parvula or Cyperus helferi.

What do you think of the layout and plant selection? Should I add some mid-ground plants between the rocks? I was thinking of Eriocaulon cinereum (when it comes in season).

TIA for the advice!!


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## HoustonFishFanatic (Feb 26, 2007)

That looks nice Fil!!!!!! Where did you get those stones from?
Bhushan


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

HoustonFishFanatic said:


> That looks nice Fil!!!!!! Where did you get those stones from?
> Bhushan


Hey Bhushan! Thanks for the compliments!

I got the stones from Aqua Forest Aquarium in SF several months ago. The process of trying to "see" the rockscape was not intuitive to me, so they sat in storage and I went my first scape, until this weekend's incident that is....I'm glad my plants went to good homes!

It's was leap of faith to order these stones on-line without seeing them first hand. Thank heavens for the 2008 ADA catalog!


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I would group the rocks into one or more distinct groups, not scatter them equally spaced about the tank. In a small tank, one main grouping with a couple of satellites works well. 2 groups, with one slightly larger and the other somewhat smaller works well, too. Avoid symmetry. 
If you go with one grouping, make it off center, roughly 1/3 or so to one side or the other. Then add a few smaller rocks on the other side of the centerline and see. Maybe they should not be there. Gotta test-place them and see. (See March Tank of the month- one main rock, off center) 
If you find 2 groupings works better then the taller one a little closer to center, and the shorter one just a bit farther from the center, on the other side of the centerline.
Think about the way nature does things. Rarely will rocks or boulders be equally spread out in a landscape. There will be a grouping, a pile, or several smaller boulders or rocks that have fallen off the main rock. The separated pieces do not fall very far. 

Here is a hint: Take a pic of a layout you like, and look at it in a mirror. If the layout still looks good in reverse, go for it. If something looks funny in reverse, then the original layout has some sort of flaw, too, that may be hard to see, but could be improved on.

Side note... I tried to get to AF, in SF today, but there was some sort of event going on a block or two away, and parking anywhere within walking distance was impossible!


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Will be interesting to see how this turns out. But yes, do give the initial set up stage more thorough consideration because once you put the plants in, it will be much more hassle to change things.

When all is said and done, though, I would just go with what you 'feel' looks right to you. If you like your creation, no one in the world can say anything and have any effect on you. Plus, it is an experiment and will give you experience. So if in the end it still does not work for you later on, you know what you can improve upon the next round. This is one reason I like smaller tanks. Tearing down is relatively painless


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## GlitcH (Aug 21, 2006)

I like how you've laid out the rockwork.
well, minus one rock.......the big one, front center. I think if you take that out it would be perfect. GL!

EDIT:
After looking again I see one more thing........small but I think it would help if you spun the second rock from the left in front, 180 degrees. Then it would be perfect


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## TNguyen (Mar 20, 2005)

I see a major flaw in this design. The ADA trimless tank is just too distracting and not in the right place. Just move all the rock out and sent the whole thing my way then it will be perfect! :heh: Have fun with your new scape!

Cheers, 
Thanh


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## thief (Feb 20, 2008)

Beautiful arrangement. Also Awesome advice you guys couldn't of made it better. I think you really got the rock placement down but I would make it into 2 separate groups with one bigger than the other.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks to all the critique! I wanted to get feedback now before the plants go in, as Paul said it will be a major hassle to rescape then.

I have done reworking the rockscape and will post pics as soon as possible (when they fix my DSL!). In brief, I moved the 2 large center rocks so that their intersection corresponds to the "golden ratio". I cleared off some of the stones to achieve and open space on the right side. 

As planting, it will start this weekend. I plan HC in the foreground with glosso as foreground accents around the rocks. Cyperus helferi behind the rocks to soften the look and Blyxa in the right back ground


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

Very nice stones and great placement. I would not change a thing.

Jeremy


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

They finally fixed my DSL after a week!

The hardscape was simplified considerably compared to before. I tried to imagine 2 main stones from which smaller pieces might have crumbled off after years of weathering by elements (Thanks to Diana K for the hint!). In contrast to the more centrally located focal point in the earlier version. The revised hardscape has the focal point at the "golden ratio" of the 60-P. 

The last 2 pics were taken 1 day after planting. So far all I have is HC, but I left some room in the back for some taller grass type background plants. 

CO2 supplied via CalAqua in-line diffuser.


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## TNguyen (Mar 20, 2005)

The rock looks cool. Too bad you can't hand pick them yourself. 

I think the rock size is too small for this tank. Might work better in a smaller nano tank. Once the HC grows in, most of the rock will be hidden. Adding plants in the back will definitely fill the open space. 

Cheers,
Thanh


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

TNguyen said:


> The rock looks cool. Too bad you can't hand pick them yourself.
> 
> I think the rock size is too small for this tank. Might work better in a smaller nano tank. Once the HC grows in, most of the rock will be hidden. Adding plants in the back will definitely fill the open space.
> 
> ...


Those were the largest rocks that AFA had. Apparently the Yamaya stones don't come much bigger. I am hoping a high light setting (130 watts for the 60P) keep the HC low. That seemed to have been the case my the previous tank.

Any suggestions for the background? I am debating between E vivpara or C helferi. I concerned that the vivpara may be invasive with the runners though.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Bunbuku said:


> Any suggestions for the background? I am debating between E vivpara or C helferi. I concerned that the vivpara may be invasive with the runners though.


I would go with the E. vivipara. C. helferi is too large for an 18 gallon tank. It gets over 2 feet tall.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

AaronT said:


> I would go with the E. vivipara. C. helferi is too large for an 18 gallon tank. It gets over 2 feet tall.


Yes, looking through this photo gallery http://akuatic.no.sapo.pt/Nature%20Aquarium%20Gallery/a.html
I see that Amano uses tall hairgrass in the background immediately behind the rock arrangements. I probably do the same. 
There are also some plants that look like Blyxa that he plants between rocks on some of the scapes.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

Update at the end of 2 weeks!

1st week - anmmonia spike, bad case of green hair algae (REALLY bad on the rocks), almost pulled everything but was too busy so I did daily 50% water changes and sucked out the clumps of algae on the AS. Then added 8 Amano shrimp. That along with the water changes did the trick! They even cleaned of the rocks!

2nd week - still doing daily water changes ~30% now and adding Stability daily. No problems with algae. Lost virtually my live stock in my holding bucket! . I did not have new media on hand during the routine water change so I added a bag of REGENERATED Purigen to the HOB filter (I followed Seachem's instructions, did the treatments with Prime and Acid Buffer and washed _extensively_) Within 2 hrs all the cardinals were dead as well as 3/4 Oto's. Lesson learned - before you use regenerated Purigen, soak it in a container of water for a few hours and check for chlorine _even when there is no chlorine smell. _

Quickly, I netted the 2 rams and the remaining Oto and put them into the 60P earlier than I wanted to with fingers crossed. The remaining livestock survived and are thriving. Now NH4 is not detectable but now NO2 at 1.8 mg/l going down to 0.8 mg/l the last 36 hrs. HC seems to be taking off.

Picassa web album http://picasaweb.google.com/bunbukuphs398/Aquascape?authkey=NY2QpAmQ3nQ

In a couple of weeks I will add the mid and background plants! Decided against vivipara bec I read how out of control it can get. I will likely go with Cyperus helferi and Blyxa in the back, plus a small group of E. cenerum in the mid ground.

Appreciate any feedback you might have


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## rountreesj (Aug 14, 2007)

might I make a suggestion. I have found that with rocks that may be just slightly too small, give the tank an extreme slop and place the biggest stones as high as possible on the slop. Sinse the slope will be very steep, the plants won't grow up around the rocks and more rock will be visible. Slope is very inportant for iwigami tanks as it gives a great sense of depth without the use of tall plants...
hope this helps


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

rountreesj said:


> might I make a suggestion. I have found that with rocks that may be just slightly too small, give the tank an extreme slop and place the biggest stones as high as possible on the slop. Sinse the slope will be very steep, the plants won't grow up around the rocks and more rock will be visible. Slope is very inportant for iwigami tanks as it gives a great sense of depth without the use of tall plants...
> hope this helps


Some of the people in this forum just have an amazing gift for spatial perspective in their layouts. A skill I have to learn to see in my mind's eye....

Currently, the AS is ~3 cm in the front sloped to ~6.5 cm in the back. Should the whole back area have this extreme slope or should it just be a "hill" where the stones are sitting now?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

In response to your first post, your concern seems a bit overcautious. I regularly uproot even enormous plants and the result is a mini hurricane full of debris. Sometimes you can't even see the fish. It generally doesn't bother them at all and the water will clear in a few hours with no ill effects. Plants and fish in nature experience high sediment loads with every passing storm. They can deal with it easily enough.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

guaiac_boy said:


> In response to your first post, your concern seems a bit overcautious. I regularly uproot even enormous plants and the result is a mini hurricane full of debris. Sometimes you can't even see the fish. It generally doesn't bother them at all and the water will clear in a few hours with no ill effects. Plants and fish in nature experience high sediment loads with every passing storm. They can deal with it easily enough.


guaiac_boy:

You are positive . It turns out I killed more fish with my actions that the dust storm......
In regards to your second point, the aquarium is a closed system and besides don't you get a big ammonia spike afterwards and its nasty consequences, esp with Amazonia soil? I had just finished a battle with GDA few weeks prior did not feel like rematch :fencing:! Do you just do a large water change after the storm and hope for the best?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

You can do a large WC (always a good idea) but honestly even a very ugly crud storm will settle out in short order - usually a few hours. Interestingly, I've found that the water is sometimes amazingly clear after such an event. It's almost like the large suspended particles somehow attract the smaller ones and the filter then grabs them all out of the water column.

Green water is always a possibility with a big substrate disturbance, but I usually just hope for the best. With 5 tanks I don't really have time to get too worked up about it. I have killed fish by disturbing substrate before, but I'm pretty sure that was due to hydrogen sulfide in a too-deep substrate bed.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

guaiac_boy said:


> You can do a large WC (always a good idea) but honestly even a very ugly crud storm will settle out in short order - usually a few hours. Interestingly, I've found that the water is sometimes amazingly clear after such an event. It's almost like the large suspended particles somehow attract the smaller ones and the filter then grabs them all out of the water column.
> 
> Green water is always a possibility with a big substrate disturbance, but I usually just hope for the best. With 5 tanks I don't really have time to get too worked up about it. I have killed fish by disturbing substrate before, but I'm pretty sure that was due to hydrogen sulfide in a too-deep substrate bed.


I am hoping not to repeat this incident again by using lower maintenance plants (C helferi and E. cinerum) that don't have to be trimmed by the "topping" method. Dead spots seems to be less of an issue with the more open Iwagumi layout compared to my previous stem plant jungle, so hopefully chances of green water will be less as well.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

Week 6 updates posted here http://picasaweb.google.com/bunbukuphs398/Aquascape?authkey=NY2QpAmQ3nQ

Main thing I did was switch over from 135 watts PC to 150 watts MH lighting. Bylxa responded with incredible rates of photosynthesis!! [smilie=n:

Hopefully, this means that the HC will fill in faster too.


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## Bunbuku (Feb 10, 2008)

:bump:I let this thread go for a while as I got too busy. My journey into Iwagumi style is at its 10th week.

The photo journal is in this Picassa web album :laser:http://picasaweb.google.com/bunbukuphs398/Aquascape?authkey=NY2QpAmQ3nQ I included pictures of my original layout also. Thanks for looking!

I don't have the touch yet. In retrospect, I wish I was able to have bigger Yamaya stones. Sadly, I was told this is a big as they come. Secondly, the choice of fish. I should have picked even smaller fish like ember tetras. If I find what I want at the LFS (pickings are slim lately), I'll move these guys to a different tank.

Overall, its been surprisingly a low maintenance. Water changes are no big deal for me. Plus, I don't have to worry about all those stem plants that I don't know how to trim properly :whoo:.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Thoroughly enjoyed the pxs. Such a healthy nice tank. Great HC!


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