# Revised Guppy Breeding Article



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I just revised my 'Small Scale Guppy Breeding' article. It's on my website now. I mention it here (on APC) _just in case_ there might be one or two guppy enthusiasts.

Article describes how I breed my pet fancy guppies. It covers the basics, but it also contains new information on reproduction. Learn why I keep "chase" females with my juvenile males, why one female quickly mated with a new male but her full-sister rejected him... Overall, the article celebrates the guppy's genetic trait of color polymorphism. Unlike breeding methods that emphasize strain uniformity, I work with the guppy's natural tendency to produce different color patterns. This not only makes guppy breeding more fun, but it avoids inbreeding problems and genetic weaknesses. Photo shows some of the males I have produced.


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## YodelMogul (Oct 7, 2021)

Im just curious if there are any more subtle signs that you look for when considering sick or diseased fish and should they be removed immediately? Some obvious ones i am guessing would be abnormal behavior, lethargy, heavy breathing…


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

YodelMogul said:


> Im just curious if there are any more subtle signs that you look for when considering sick or diseased fish and should they be removed immediately? Some obvious ones i am guessing would be abnormal behavior, lethargy, heavy breathing…


I usually give a sad looking individual fish a few days before removing and euthanizing. I think this is something that you learn only by experience with your own guppies. Every situation is different.

When I first started in 2017, I had 4-month-old males that lay on the bottom suffering from constipation. Young females soon after giving birth had pro-lapsed uteruses or they would just hang at the surface. Days went by and they never got better. I believe they represent "plumbing problems" in the Blue Grass strain that I started out with. 

However, I did treat sick fish for Camallanus worms and flukes. These are diseases that popped up and that I actually succeeded in eradicating from the fish. Articles about my ordeal with these diseases are on my website.

I spent the last several years selecting out more robust individuals, weeding out disease, and breeding for greater longevity. It is working!


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

I know you are a fan of "line" breeding. I saw another way of breeding from Kenjiro Tanaka (Japan) and his Ginga guppies. I can't find the website. He also bred killifish, and so the guppies patterns resembles killifish. But he did not use line breeding. Instead he bred in colonies. So you don't get a single trait, but variations of a trait. I want to create a colony of turquoise Moscow guppies. Because they are full colored and meant to be bigger stronger guppies. Then I also learnt that adding purple Moscow guppies bring out stronger colors. Not sure how that gene pool works. Of course culling is required to get strong best colored fish. Even culls would be interesting fish to sell. The ones you find in local fish shops.....look really sad. Even Endlers look better than the mutts in the local fish shop.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

Does anybody know the value of the material in this document? http://www.petbh.com.br/guppy/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Guppy-Color-Strains_Philip-Shaddock-1.pdf There was very sharp criticism for his work.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

SchalkR said:


> Does anybody know the value of the material in this document? http://www.petbh.com.br/guppy/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Guppy-Color-Strains_Philip-Shaddock-1.pdf There was very sharp criticism for his work.


I don't understand the criticism of this beautiful, comprehensive book on guppy strains. Shaddock must have spent *years* collecting the pictures. I'm not an expert on guppy color genetics, so there may be genetic details that inflamed his critics--or stoked their jealousy. As a basic overview of guppy color strains, it is unparalleled.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

SchalkR said:


> I know you are a fan of "line" breeding. I saw another way of breeding from Kenjiro Tanaka (Japan) and his Ginga guppies. I can't find the website. He also bred killifish, and so the guppies patterns resembles killifish. But he did not use line breeding. Instead he bred in colonies. So you don't get a single trait, but variations of a trait. I want to create a colony of turquoise Moscow guppies. Because they are full colored and meant to be bigger stronger guppies. Then I also learnt that adding purple Moscow guppies bring out stronger colors. Not sure how that gene pool works. Of course culling is required to get strong best colored fish. Even culls would be interesting fish to sell. The ones you find in local fish shops.....look really sad. Even Endlers look better than the mutts in the local fish shop.


Beautiful guppies! Thanks for the photo.

I would not call what I do "line-breeding." Actually, I believe I am doing the "colony breeding" that you describe for Tanaka's Ginga guppies. I interbreed individuals with *different* variations of color patterns (phenotypes). This is not line-breeding.

If I were line-breeding, I would select one desired phenotype and inter-breed individuals with that phenotype. This can be done with closely related individual (mating of full siblings) called 'severe inbreeding'. OR it can be done with less-related individuals (mating of second cousins), which is called 'line-breeding.'


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

As a lazy platy breeder I unintentionally use the colony method. I put a group of fish with desired but variable characteristics in a tank and let them go at it. I enjoy seeing what happens, and at some point I may segregate the fish based on what I like. Or not. I haven't switched all my breeding tanks to potted plants, and platies are the devil to catch in a lush Walstad tank, LOL.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

That is true. Catching them in a heavy planted tank would be hard. Transparent plastic container with a funnel inlet baited with food? I don't want to breed for profit, just want to fill my tank with beautiful high quality guppies. At some point down the track the sheer numbers might require culling and sales. The parents were expensive. But they are doing very well. Even in the quarentine container I already have several babies. A 30 liter plastic bucket with a sponge filter and floating hornswort. 2 males and 3 females. The one male died in the mail.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

From memory the Ginga Guppies were bred in what looked like 3x4 meter concrete containers about a meter high. Thousands of them together. There was no seperation of pairs. I saw a Israeli breeder doing something similar. He had a interesting grading method. By width. 7, 6, 5 mm spacers. A method that results in big strong Guppies.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> I don't understand the criticism of this beautiful, comprehensive book on guppy strains. Shaddock must have spent *years* collecting the pictures. I'm not an expert on guppy color genetics, so there may be genetic details that inflamed his critics--or stoked their jealousy. As a basic overview of guppy color strains, it is unparalleled.


Me neither. He went through the trouble of sharing his experience. Some comments were really nasty. Science trolls I guess. I like that he started with Moscow Guppies 😁 I tried to find the origins. But then you get good info, then it vanishes again. The story was of a Russian that kept them in glass jars, heated by a lamp or candle. The breeding of the Moscow strain is not quite clear. How they succeeded in getting the whole fish in colour, the cameleon colour change. There is some info on body shape.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

I found it! You use the Russian search engine in Russian, then translate it back into English. История гуппи | АкваДомик


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

SchalkR said:


> Catching them in a heavy planted tank would be hard. Transparent plastic container with a funnel inlet baited with food?


Did you not see my article 'Potted Plants for Fish Breeding Tanks'? The method works very well. Article is on my website.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Did you not see my article 'Potted Plants for Fish Breeding Tanks'? The method works very well. Article is on my website.


I did. The primary goal is a planted tank, with beautiful fish. Neon's are bright, but only two colors. The tank can accommodate 200 fish with ease. Moscow guppies is about $20 each. Buying all the fish would be $4,000. So instead I bought three pairs and breed my own colony of 200 fish.  
I have done it before. Not 200, about 50. And then I introduced a very pretty fish from the pet store.....and you end up with 2 fish left. So this time, no new fish. The five fish should be a reasonable starting gene pool?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

After thinking about what you and Michael wrote, your "colony" method is much different from mine. I carefully plan each pairing and only raise stock from the mating of chosen individuals. Requires a lot of work, time, and more than one tank. Helps to be retired! 

Starting with 5 fish could work, but I think the quality will deteriorate after a few years. The results will depend on the starting stock, selection, what your goals are, luck, etc. 

It sounds like you are having fun with your Moscows. That's great! 

If you have a picture, I'd like to see what they look like.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> If you have a picture, I'd like to see what they look like.


I have less time 😊









Got another batch in quarentine from a local breeder. Still stressed, not fully coloured. 3 males and 7 females from a different gene pool. All the females are pregnant 😁 The 14 original fish is growing.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beautiful! Nice and healthy looking.
Thanks for sending picture.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

When they say Moscow Guppies is only a male gene, does it mean if you have a Moscow male with wny female you still get a full Moscow Guppy? Or do Moscow females play a role as well, though not the dominant gene?


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

Another question. The Moscow females are either blond or grey. Some babies are grey, some are blond, some looking albino and some darker with coloured fins. Males are hard to tell if they are blond or grey. So is the babies random combinations of grey and blond? With blond and blond gene albino, and grey and grey very dark?


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

Hard to see in the picture. A small school of 20 bubs hanging with momy. This is my second batch of Moscow Guppies in quarentine.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

These are esoteric questions, and I have no experience with Moscow guppies. I would send your Moscow questions with a picture of your males to the Guppy Gene Collectors forum.
Apparently, your stock are carrying a mix of genes for different body colors.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

Thanks. I found this link that are helpful. Emeraldking-aquatics livebearers

That is the females in the small batch. The females of the larger batch look different again. They are all greys, and some half blacks. They have the rounded tail fin either grey or black. Their babies is still small ( about 50 plus now) so it is harder to see.

Do small babies eat the algea from green water? I add finely crushed flakes too. Don't want to polute the water. They seem to survive and grow on that. The half milimeter pellets is still a bit big. The first batch grew to 8mm already on powdered flakes.

I do weekly 25% water changes (20 liter) using the same drip method than for shrimps. Water smell good. Keeping it fresh so they grow fast and stay healthy in quarentine.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

I read on your website the following?

"Like my earlier BG breeder males, the two July males did not live long—about 4-5 mos. Irreversible decline began when they rested on the bottom with swollen bellies and lost all interest in food and females."

That is unusual? My guppies definitely lives longer than that. Actually the ones thrown in an external tub and mostly forgotten seems to have been the most vibrant and colourful. Less fish flakes food, more mosquito larvae and algae.

I am guilty of once a day blob of food. So I am working on a 3D printed fish feeder powered by an Arduino. Then program it to give small portions several times a day instead.

This link talks about guppy bloat, sounding similar to Malawi bloat. Usually treated wit Empson salt to get those tummies going. Some Malawi salts have so much magnesium, the fishes have hollow tummies. Going out faster than they can eat.





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Can Guppies Die From Overeating? (Answered) – FishKeepingAnswers.com






fishkeepinganswers.com





I will definitely watch those tummies and fast them for a couple of days if they start to look a bit bloated.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

Only the females are a bit bloaty. The male rascals are so busy chasing them, there tummies look normal.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your fish look nice. Females look normal. 
Bloating can also be due to the fish's inability to digest food properly. 
I still overfeed my fish but--since I started breeding for longevity-- I no longer have males that die at 4-5 months.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

It's hard to see the fish in this quarentine tub. There are some babies that are significantly lighter than others from the top.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Just posted a revision of my 'Guppy Longevity' article (10 pages) on my website. By breeding only older guppies since 2018, I've now gotten one female (picture) to live over 1 year. She's now 13 months and reproducing normally. Yesterday, I moved her into a new tank with an established breeding group of younger guppies. Overnight, this robust alpha female fought and won for a dominant position in the tank. I've already got progeny from 3 of her batches, but I want some progeny sired by a new male that I like a lot (photo). If I get really lucky, she'll give me some babies by him in a couple months time!

This female represents a major improvement over where I started a few years ago. Guppies dying at 5-6 months. The actual lifespan of the species is about 2 years. Article goes into why fancy guppies die so young. Same situation probably applies to Bettas and other "highly bred" fish that don't seem to last long.

Article has new insights into an old subject.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

I have read on the internet that some guppy breeders breed in salty water to reduce diseases and increase yields. Which is great for high volume breeding. But when we purchase these guppies, they have to adapt to fresh water and their immune systems might not be so strong either. This might also explain why some guppies die so extraordinary fast. Which of cause necessitate purchasing guppies again. I am not sure if things like antibiotics or other disease reducing strategies are also in use? All resulting in weak guppies.


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## SchalkR (12 mo ago)

Believe it or not, guppies are very unique fish. In a seawater aquarium? Saltwater Guppies?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

On the subject of colony breeding, here's an example of a male who would have lost out under a "free-for-all" mating setup. This Red Grass male was subordinate in a tank with 4 males and ~7 females. Because he just rested on the bottom for months, I thought he was either sick or lazy. But after I pulled out the other males (to test their fertility), he behaved normally and started courting females. To make sure I get progeny from him, I put him with a virgin female for 24 hours. After 3 days--allowing time for him to replenish his sperm--, I'll put him with another virgin. Colony breeding is fine if all the males are from the same strain and equally good, but in my situation with assorted males, planned matings help rescue precious genes from superior individuals. Otherwise, a guppy colony gets skewed over time towards the most aggressive males, not necessarily the most fit or the most beautiful males like this pretty Red Grass.


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## seadreamer90 (Jan 19, 2011)

Wow, he’s beautiful!!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

seadreamer90 said:


> Wow, he’s beautiful!!


Thanks. Yes, he's nice. I used him (and two other 9-month-old males) to test for fertility in my older males. Unfortunately, they didn't reproduce well, so I may have lost the Red Grass phenotype.  The story of the testing is on my Facebook site. 登录 Facebook


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## SamOfChaos (10 mo ago)

Hello my fellow guppy enthusiasts! 

I will try to shed some light on some questions. 

True colony breeding in captivity is not possible. We neither have the room nor the time and we miss the predators to keep the pool healthy. 
The colony breeding we do is/should be seen as a variation of line breeding.

We put in a pool of fish with desirable traits and let them have a go at it. Every individual with undesirable traits needs to be removed. 
Males that mature to young, males and females with undesired color, crippled and stunned growing individuals. This need to be realuvated at least weekly. No undesirable individual should get the chance of mating much less producing offsprings.
This is a good way of keepig a strain of true breeding strains - like the moskau guppy above or my compoma 31.
Ideally there should be 3 to 4 colonys to be able to swap a male out if degradation is happening. (Most likely not happening if culling and selecting is done right.)

For Diana this is undesirable because she is trying out individual pairings of different genetic (coloration) backgrounds.

For why fancys are so short lived.
They are bred in big farms like this
Even if no antibiotics or salt is used the pools are not really cleaned, no water changes everything is static. The fish had never to adapt to changes. So if ready for selling they are pulled out put in different ("clean") water, treated against parasites, put in small bags and shipped around half the earth - pure stress - so much change for a little fish that never had to adapt to it.

I never buy fancys in stores. Only bred individuals from private breeders. Or endlers, they are mostly bred in country.

For the different colored moskau guppys.
In the picture of the group from above the male is definitely blond.
You seemed to have gotten a group of guppys that have not breed through. So the gens are splitting since your stock was not all the same.
If you want to breed only one kind eg. Blond or white you can easily select to only keep the males that are the kind you want. You will need to take out every male in the wrong color as soon as you see them.
After your desired males had the chance to breed with their own daughters and you see females with the desired body color you can to begin selecting the females. Over the course of 1 to 2 years your colony should only have individuals of your desired colors.

If you want to have them with gray bodies you will need to get new stock. The other colors are recessiv and will always keep showing up. You can sometimes go years and then 2 individuals will breed that have that gen recessiv and boom you have offpring in that color.

The females in half black are interesting. 
Half black was originally only passed down through the mother and moskau only through the male.
You can try to take out all half black females if you do not like them. If you are lucky your males do not pass it down.
I think half black females look good with moskau males.


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