# Making the jump to pressurized.. 2.5lb good enough for 30 gallon?



## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

I am finally making the jump from DIY Co2 to pressurized, and as usual, this comes with some questions:

It's a 30 gallon with 79 Watts (around 2.5 watts/gal), heavily planted with a Eheim 2213 canister filter.

1.	Is 2.5lb CO2 enough? Or do I need to get a 5lb tank? I found a used, retested 2.5lb for $55, is this a good price? 
2.	Can I inject it directly into the intake tube of the Eheim filter?
3.	If I purchase this, http://cgi.ebay.com/Milwaukee-MA957...e-Counter_W0QQitemZ300228662982QQcmdZViewItem would I just need the co2 tank? If not, what else would I need?
4.	Is there a good website with set up instructions?
5.	I'm new at this so any type of advice would be helpful.

THANKS!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi ara35,

Here is a site that has 5# CO2 bottles new for $57 http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2/C5.shtml plus UPS charges. The cost to fill a 2.5#, 5#, and 10# are about the same (+/- $4) here in Seattle, I would purchase the largest size bottle that fits the space you have. Save trips for getting it filled.

I feed my CO2 into the intake of my canister filter with no problems.

It looks like a good regulator/solenoid/bubble counter/needle valve to me; I don't have one like it myself.


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## nokturnalkid (Feb 27, 2007)

Like Seattle aquarist said, get the biggest bottle you can fit and afford. $55 seems a bit steep for a used co2 tank. There's a bunch of new tanks that can be found on ebay. As for the regulator, the only problem I've heard is that sometimes the needle valves don't hold steady. Never owned one of those regulators so no first hand experience. Then all you would need is a diffusor/reactor.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

ara35 said:


> 4.	Is there a good website with set up instructions?


There are different ways of setting up the Milwaukee regulator. One is printed on the box. A slightly different one is at the Milwaukee support site:

http://www.milwaukeetesters.com/pdf/MA957 Regulator Set Up Procedure.pdf

However, both did not work for me. I discovered that:

"during the initial set-up of the regulator, I needed to keep adjusting the big knob until the low pressure gauge showed a reading of 20 psi - not 10 psi (even 15 psi was not good enough). At 20 psi, with the needle valve wide open, bubbles were flying out like water was boiling. Then I used the needle valve to reduce the bubble rate to three bubbles per second. Since then there was no lost of low pressure - the low pressure gauge stayed pointing at 20 psi. And the bubble rate stayed at three bubbles per second."

For detail, see:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...setting-up-milwaukee-co2-regulator-ma957.html

If you do go with the Milwaukee regulator, I would be curious to know which set-up works for you.


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

actually, bartoli.. reading your the article from the link, you convinced me to not go with the milwaukee. it seems like too much work and too much trouble, and to be honest, since this is my first pressurized co2 experience, i rather spend more to have it run smoothly. do you have any other cheap but reliable options? this goes for anyone else too, if you can suggest a better regulator, that would be great!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

I was really turned off by the Milwaukee technical support. Looks like they didn't know what they were doing.

As to another regulator, see:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...iumplants-com-s-electronic-co2-regulator.html


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

a little out of my price range... was looking for $80-100


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

how bout this one??

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9935&pcatid=9935


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi ara35,

The regulator that they are offering is an Azoo flow regulator, not a pressure regulator. A flow regulator does not have a output pressure adjustment, and may do a "tank dump" when the CO2 tank nears empty. You may want to check this out before you purchase. Here is a reasonably priced pressure regulator at Beverage Factory.


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

> Here is a reasonably priced pressure regulator at Beverage Factory.


with the regulator from the beer factory, what else do i need? just a bubble counter? or do i not even need that. i dont think i need a solenoid because i want to run it 24/7. this would be awesome cause i could buy everything from one place. please let me know.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi ara35,

I don't use a bubble counter, but you will need a needle valve. It can be mounted on the output side of your regulator (where the shutoff handle currently is in the picture).


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

where can i find a needle valve? does it have to be a certain size?


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> The regulator that they are offering is an Azoo flow regulator, not a pressure regulator. A flow regulator does not have a output pressure adjustment, and may do a "tank dump" when the CO2 tank nears empty.


Hi Roy,

What led you to believe that the Azoo is NOT a pressure regulator?

I checked the thread at:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/14783-my-co2-azoo-regulator-experience.html

and saw someone mentioning that after adjusting the Azoo regulator's low pressure to around 25 psi, the flow rate was more consistent. So, it appears that Azoo IS a pressure regulator and the so called "tank dump" is not an issue.


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## rjfurbank (Jan 21, 2008)

You've got some good advice already but here's my 2 cents:

-as others have stated get the biggest cylinder that fits in your stand. When I upgraded from a 2.5lb cylinder I got one too big and now I have a big ugly cylinder next to the stand.

-I ran my CO2 into the inlet of my Eheim 2217 for many months and it worked ok. However, occasionally a lot of undissolved CO2 would purge itself through the spraybar. I am now using the Aquamedic 1000 inline reactor which I like. However, a quality diffuser works well also.

-I bought the system you linked from Dr. Foster & Smith a couple years ago and it has worked well. The bubble counter stinks though. And the regulator linked by Seattle Aquarist looks much better (especially for the price) and I would prefer to have a regulator w/ an adjustable outlet pressure--not sure if he's used it or not but I would ask him or others for experience before ordering.

Good luck!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi ara35,

I was wrong, I confused the Azoo regulator with the Aquatek regulator. bartoli may be correct about an adjustment the Azoo having an adjustment, possibly rjfurbank can confirm an adjustment.

In my opinion, a good regulator (and for that matter needle valve) is one I do not have to mess with after it is set. I bought an inexpensive, but reliable, regulator and spent extra on an excellent needle valve (Ideal). My CO2 rate always remains "rock solid" and I never have to fool with adjustments.


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

so what type of needle valve should i use and where can i find one?


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## Andy Ritter (Nov 26, 2008)

It sounds to me like you are at the same stage that I was years ago. I had started off using 2 liter bottles with the yeast mixtures to brew my own CO2, but quickly became very frustrated with this method.

I then started trying to make my own pressurized CO2 system as cheaply as possible by buying various pieces. Even though I was able to get my own system to work okay, I never was happy with the inconsistencies. Since the plants use oxygen at night and give off CO2, I would have problems with pH swings. I didn't want to set up an air pump and drive off the CO2, and I didn't have a solenoid to turn off the CO2 with a timer, so I finally gave up and bought the Deluxe Fully Automatic system that Drs. Fosters and Smith sells: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9933&pcatid=9933
I have been very happy with this system and have never had any problems with it. The regulator that it comes with is preset to about 26-27 psi, which I've never had a reason to adjust. The needle valve seems to be just fine to me also, and I also don't have any problems with the bubble counter (I don't know why others dislike it so much; my only issue is that I had to put a piece of tape around it to keep it together, but that doesn't bother me a bit). I honestly don't really worry about the bubble count anyway since the pH controller automatically turns the flow on and off when needed. I just use it as a visual indicator to confirm that the CO2 is actually flowing. The reactor works way better than the stuff that I tried making on my own.

I guess that the only real issue is the cost, since this system is pretty expensive, but quite honestly, if you figure in how much time I spent trying to rig up something on my own (at lets say $25 an hour), plus the money that I spent on items that are now in a box gathering dust, I should have just bought this system to start with.

I no longer worry about the tank, and just keep an eye on the drop checker (which I added later - $6 on eBay, excellent purchase) to confirm that the CO2 concentration is okay.

I laugh when I read posts here on APC about how people are crying about not wanting to spend any money on equipment, and it is usually for something pretty cheap (the best one yet is someone that didn't want to buy a $10 scale, and instead kept begging for others to provide tsp equivalents for grams when making PPS pro). Think about it like this - How much did your fish cost? Your plants? How much would you be willing to sell them all for? Or replace them in the event of a catastrophe? In my case, I have spent quite a bit to try and fail-safe my aquarium the best that I can (including having a back-up generator in the event of a total power failure, which I've had happen more than once) because these are my pets, and I love them. I don't want anything bad to happen to them any more so than I would to my dog. Besides, we spend large amounts of money on all kinds of things that in my opinion aren't worth as much (add up your cell phone bill for a few months and see how long it takes to equal the cost of a fully automatic CO2 system that should last you for years). Hell, my wife and I just went to a Nickleback concert that cost us $225 for tickets for only four hours of entertainment (but it was awesome and well worth it).

Just my two cents.

Andy


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

i understand all that and it makes sense and there are many valid points, but i am also 22 years old and not making enough money to drop 300+ dollars on this system. i was going to go with the semi-auto that they make, but that isnt in till the end of august. maybe go with JBJ dual guage


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi ara35,

I got my needle valves from Rex Grigg. He sometimes takes a while to ship, I always check if what I want is in stock before placing an order.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I confused the Azoo regulator with the Aquatek regulator.


I was intrigued by your mentioning of the so called flow- versus pressure-regulator and the resulting "tank dump". While some regulators may not allow user to adjust the low pressure, they are still pressure regulator none the less. Thus, I do not understand how your so called "tank dump" problem can happen (on a regulator whose low pressure is not adjustable). If that indeed can happen, it can also happen on an adjustable regulator. After all, once the low pressure is set on an adjustable regulator, it typically won't be adjusted again. Can you provide information on how the so called "tank dump" problem can happen on a non-adjustable regulator? Thanks.


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## rjfurbank (Jan 21, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I was wrong, I confused the Azoo regulator with the Aquatek regulator. bartoli may be correct about an adjustment the Azoo having an adjustment, possibly rjfurbank can confirm an adjustment.


The Azoo that I have (and linked from Dr. F&S in this thread) is a single stage regulator and does not have an adjustment knob for the outlet pressure. However, it comes w/ a built in needle valve on the tubing outlet connection which I have used for this purpose.

I have been happy w/ it and it has met my needs on my 90g tank. That said--I would prefer to have a dual stage regulator and am intrigued by the post made by Seattle_Aquarist as $40 is definitely the least expensive dual stage regulator I have seen. Have you used this regulator before?

To the OP--good luck and keep us posted on your decision.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Get the largest cylinder you can fit under your tank. It will cost around $15 to fill a 5lb cylinder and $19 for a 10LB. 
So,, you can see the benefit of finding the largest cylinder you can find.

Regards,
Orlando


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

rjfurbank said:


> The Azoo that I have (and linked from Dr. F&S in this thread) is a single stage regulator and does not have an adjustment knob for the outlet pressure.


Not suggesting that you play with the regulator that way  but see:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...co2-azoo-regulator-experience.html#post101586

"...when I turn that nut in the middle of the regulator, it adjust the working pressure"


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi rjfurbank,

Thank you for confirming no output adjustment on the Azoo regulator. The link to the regulator is for a two gauge regulator, but I doubt it is a two stage regulator. It does not say if it is a single or two stage but for the price I would guess it is a single stage. You are correct, two stage regulators are definately the most stable and reliable.

I use single stage regulators on my tanks because I can buy them cheap off of Craigslist along with the CO2 tank from guys who are tired of drinking draft beer. However I also use the Ideal 52-1-12 needle valve that is reputed to be "Rock solid. Bubble rates as low as 2 bubbles per minute. No "end of tank dump" problems." per Rex Grigg. I have to admit that the bubble count does not vary with the Ideal needle valve, even as the CO2 tank has dropped down to zero on several occasions.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I have yet to see an end of tank dump on any regulator I have actually had hands on work with except one, and thats a ton of models. In fact, I don't know anybody who has had this experience. Most of the time is just something they have read rumor of with no real hands on experience in this.
But, I have seen this problem with Milwaukee regulators.

I have used single stage for years, not a single end of tank dump. And that came with real hands on experience, not rumor
I have also tested JBJ regulators for this phenomenon and still no end of tank dump. And that is after 5 weeks of testing. 


Regards,
Orlando


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Orlando,

Good to hear from the other corner of the country. Orlando, you sell quality equipment, "end of tank dump" (EOTD) would probably be unlikely with your equipment. Unfortunately EOTP can occur, even the regulator manufacturers are aware of it, here is a post that a manufacturer sent a hobbiest. They are not common, and from what I have read on the subject almost impossible on a two stage regulator, but may happen on a single stage regulator.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Thats a great link. The problem is its from 2003 
Regulators have come along way sense then and have made vast improvements in valve seats and bodies.

I just had a friend send me a JBJ regulator to work on and test out. I tried to get it to dump but was unsuccessful several times.
I was amazed at its performance for what it was. It worked great!
Now, Milwaukee regulators are different. They done seem to catch on with technology and have been slacking in improving there regulator while there controllers and meters get constant upgrades from year to year.

SO, yes it is for sure possible Its great to see you Roy! I had to double take a look at the GSAS logo!

I hope your well and everything is growing green on your end..

Take Care,
Orlando


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> EOTP can occur, even the regulator manufacturers are aware of it, here is a post that a manufacturer sent a hobbiest. They are not common, and from what I have read on the subject almost impossible on a two stage regulator, but may happen on a single stage regulator.


Yes, EOTD (End Of Tank Dump) can occur. But it has nothing to do with whether the low pressure is adjustable as in the case of the Azoo or Aquatek regulator.

The key factor is, internally within the regulator, how many stages are used to regulate the pressure. For a detail explanation, see:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200009/msg00934.html

For a graphical illustration, see:

http://www.scottecatalog.com/scottt...a7f5c80b3c5a399e8525694a0053a98b?OpenDocument

BTW, to prevent EOTD, the important thing to remember is NOT to run the CO2 tank till it is totally empty.


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## ara35 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well just a quick question back to my first post,

is it better to get the JBJ with everything included, or to buy it seperate with the beverage factory regulator? 

i prefer cheap as always, but i also want efficiency, what is the best way to go?


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