# Algae defeated, stunting continues



## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Specs:

40 breeder
24 LED homemade fixture with approx 140-150 PAR at substrate, 8hours per day
1 Rena xP2 and a Fluval 306 with a surface skimmer
Micros: 7ml of a mix that's 2/3 Flourish and 1/3 Envy plus a tiny bit of Trace - 7mls every other day
7ml of half strength iron gluconate mix daily, bt I will probably go back to Flourish Iron - daily
Macros: 7mls (a capful) of Flourish Nitrogen and a pinch of about .05 grams of potassium phosphate every other day
2ml per day of Flourish Potassium - daily
Lots of co2 injected into a homemade in tank co2 reactor that looks very efficient
Water is 100% RO. 50% weekly (was biweekly) water change using 16g of Equilibrium and 6g of Alkaline Buffer

I formerly had some pretty bad BBA and before that cyano. As of now, the tank is nearly spotless after taking measures against organic buildup (though I'm not sure why I have to fight it so hard with a nearly zero bioload).

I was adding double the macros and micros, minus the Flourish K until recently. A somewhat suspect but not expired AP nitrate kit showed super high N readings. The color in the tube looked like blood, so a bit high. Now things show about 40ppm or so, assuming I double the reading because I am using Flourish Nitrogen. I also thought the micros were probably being wasted at that level of dosing.

At issue is stunting in _Ludwigia arcuata_, which, although it grows profusely, has a lot of stunting and twisted leaves. I did see some stunting on the tiny amount of _Gratiola viscidula_ I have as well. Also evident in _H. polysperma_ (that I properly dispose of...) are some pinholes that got worse after I cut back the macro dosing to every other day, hence the Flourish K. On a few stems there have been leaves with glassy patches.

Other plants are fine and the tank actually looks pretty good. But what's going on here? Still not enough co2? I can fill in more details if needed but just wanted to type this all out before I'm too tired. Thoughts? It shouldn't be this hard.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I have seen some really convincing evidence that traces build up much faster in our tanks than were previously thought. 
If you compare your dosing to the levels obtained with the EI method, the edge of toxic levels of micros were as low as 1/100 of the EI dose of CSM+B. 

That is, to keep the micros at reasonable levels, you need dose as little as 1/100 of the amount of CSM+B as suggested by the EI method. 

Why not do the math, perhaps using Fe as the proxy, if you have a test for Fe, and see where this tank is with respect to all the micros. (check all the materials you add to the tank just in case any of them have any micros- I know Equilibrium has some)
I do see you are adding a separate product for Fe. Substract this out, I think the toxins are based on the other micros. The tank still needs the Fe. 

If you do not want to go through the math, then do this:
Do 5 x 50% water changes (perhaps 50% per day for a week) and dose NO micros of any sort, but maintain half dosing of macros (N, P, K). Find a substitute for Equilibrium to raise the GH of the RO. Calcium sulfate or calcium chloride and Epsom salt, or get Barr's GH booster- it has the same big 3 ingredients as Equilibrium, but no traces.
Then run the tank for 2 weeks, dosing N, P, K at low to moderate levels (You might look up the PPS-Pro levels as a guide). Probably add a small amount of iron, but not much. 

Then look at the new growth of any plant (especially stems). 
Where the old leaves are twisted, distorted, perhaps smaller than they should be, the new leaves ought to be coming in as flat as is normal for this species, and grow to their full size.


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## nilocg (Sep 14, 2010)

Diana K said:


> I have seen some really convincing evidence that traces build up much faster in our tanks than were previously thought.
> If you compare your dosing to the levels obtained with the EI method, the edge of toxic levels of micros were as low as 1/100 of the EI dose of CSM+B.
> 
> That is, to keep the micros at reasonable levels, you need dose as little as 1/100 of the amount of CSM+B as suggested by the EI method.
> ...


I know the thread that you are referring to, but I think its still way too early to assume its the micros, there seems to be something to it, but that wouldnt explain the people who have soft water and dose full EI amounts of CSM+B and dont have any issues.

Also it appears that Cavan is dosing roughly 100x less of most of the micros(other than iron) with his current dosing. Full disclosure: Im not sure what envy plus is, I assume its another seachem product, but using a full 7ml dose of comp, he is roughly 100x less on Cu, Zn, Mn and a few others. He looks to be pretty close to a full amount of Fe, but I dont think this is one that people are blaming for their issues except in huge doses. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will try to look into envy plus to ensure we are talking apples to apples.


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## nilocg (Sep 14, 2010)

I see seachem envy but it doesnt supply the micronutrients we are talking about. Is Envy plus different, I cant find anything about it?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

nilocg said:


> I see seachem envy but it doesnt supply the micronutrients we are talking about. Is Envy plus different, I cant find anything about it?


http://aquavitro.com/products/envy.html

It's that. It actually does have a wide spectrum of micronutrients but doesn't list them as they are present from the chlorella it contains. The labeling is a bit confusing. It's a Flourish replacement that I have dabbled with because I am using 100% RO and can't afford to have anything missing that might not be in Flourish.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Thank you for the responses. I have suspected a micro problem too and have noticed that the arcuata seems to improve a tiny bit and then go bad in cycles independent of water changes. 

Do you really think the manganese in the Equilibrium is a problem? I doubt the iron is. 

I suppose I could just not dose micros for a while and see what that does. If things aren't improved, I can delve farther into the reconstitution stuff.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

The information that I have so far seems to suggest it may be Zn, Cu or Mn. 
I would try that- no micros for a while, (except yes, keep dosing Fe) and see what happens. 

If you did not want to try this in the main tank, then take cuttings of all the plants that you can and run a pair of trials in a couple of smaller tanks:
Full EI levels of micros from CSM+B
.01 x EI dosing of micros from CSM+B (that is 1/100 as much)

I would not try to figure out equivalents from several products to mix and match. Just pick one source of micros for this. Dose one tank at EI levels, dose the other at .01x EI levels.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I only have one tank. But I'll try the reduced micros and report back.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

How much of the micros are you adding in ppm? Micro overdoses seem to be a real problem, but you'd expect to see them with high levels of micro fertilizer. Micro toxicities usually seem to show up as a combination of odd symptoms in your plants. Like Diana said you really don't need a lot of them to grow healthy plants, just a constant small supply of them rather than a large bolus. It is a good starting step and worth trying to see if it fixes the issue.

Are the curling plants shaded at all by any other plants?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

No micros for a week. Some improvement, but I'm hardly out of the woods yet. One 50% water change since then. 

Equilibrium seems to have quite a bit of manganese in it. And I'm adding that every time I do a water change. But is the potassium in the GH booster too much? Then again, I probably wouldn't have to add as much K the rest of the week. 

And if I stuck with the Envy alone for micros, how much would be appropriate? I'm kind of thinking 2mls per day so I spread it over the week.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I'm about to do my 3rd big water change since adding only 6mls of Envy in a little over the last two weeks. I have but one stem of the _Rotala ramosior_ from Florida (never stunted) that has gone a light yellow from its former deep purplish red. H. polysperma looks chalky. Clearly, micros are running out. But stunting continues for arcuata, Proserpinaca palustris and Gratiola visidula. 

Maybe I need to just stick with the plan and be a bit more patient. But if that isn't it, I may have to look into my water reconstitution stuff. And if that doesn't work, I don't know what to say.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the continued problems. Sometimes whatever the problem is it isn't easy to figure out.

How much calcium and magnesium are you adding? What is your lighting like?


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