# Choice of substrate for large tank



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I know this question gets asked every few days in one form or another, but I'm looking for advice (again). The only substrate I have much experience with is Flourite. It works well enough and the plants stay down just fine with the exception of HC. The grains are probably a bit on the big side for that.

I'm moving to an area with almost liquid rock, GH>15. I'll probably end up using RO water since I really love tetras and dwarf chiclids and would like to try breeding them.

I'd definately like a darker substrate than Flourite. My choices at present are ADA Amazonia, Eco Complete, and Onyx. I'm really not interested in layering or mixing different substrates since they always get mixed in over time anyway. My primary concern is that the substrate perform well for a period of say 5-10 years. I'll be buying enough of it that I don't want to be changing my mind in a few months.

Do the softer substrates like ADA break down into mush over time? Over the long term is one any better than another? I'm sure you can grow plants in any of them just fine. I'd rather stay away from anyting that will buffer or increase the GH of the water since I'll be fighting that anyway.

Any preference?


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## acbaldwin (Nov 3, 2005)

I dunno about long term use, but my 55 had a mix of 80% flourite 20% soilmaster red. Looked nice, plants were happy, and other than the sediment, I was pretty happy. I just go 50 pounds of 1 year old eco-complete, and IMO this stuff blows flourite outta the water in terms of apperance and ease of planting. Plus, no damn red cloud every time I stir it up!


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I have been using Soilmaster Select for about 4-5 months now and love it. It took one 50lb bag to do a 75g tank and the cost is about $16 per 50lb bag! Hard to beat that price especially if you are doing a larger tank.

A search on Soilmaster will give you plenty of reading to keep you busy for a while. Here is the tank I set up with pics:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/swoape-forum/10563-soilmaster-setup-pics.html?highlight=soilmaster

Soilmaster Select gray is available at some Lesco stores (Lesco.com). Some are more willing to order it in than others so it has been kind of hit and miss. If you can't find any Soilmaster and you happen to pass through this way on your way to Iowa, feel free to stop by and I will see if I can round up a couple of bags for you!

Here's a lnk that will give you plenty of info on the contents of Soilmaster. Soilmaster is montmillorite clay and very similar to the results for Turface and Turface black in the link. Notice the difference between Turface and Flourite in the link: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm


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## filipnoy85 (Jan 26, 2006)

My vote is for the soilmaster select. I have it in my tanks. I just bougth two more bags! Works great!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK, I must admit I've been skeptical that something marketed as a great product for softball infields could work well in a tank. I have a couple ?'s about the setup photos you show. If I'm understanding this correctly you're using the charcoal-colored soilmaster select? Did you then cap this with another layer of black sand?

Using two distinct layers gives me a little angst. I _really_ like the dark appearance of the black sand, but I'm enormously concerned about the two materials mixing, especially over a time period of years. I can't believe the black, small-particle sand will stay on top of the larger particles in the soilmaster substrate. Once they mix I imagine it wouldn't look too good. I'm always pulling up plants and replanting so not messing with things isn't an option for me. Have you guys had any problems with this?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

While I purchased some sand to use with the soilmaster, I did not use the sand in my tank. I was happy with Soilmaster's plant holding ability (in comparison to Eco Complete) and figured if I ever changed my mind it would not be too difficult to _add_ some sand. If I didn't like the sand mixed it, it would be very difficult to _remove_ it  If you use sand with any larger substrate, the sand will eventually work it's way to the bottom of the tank.

After planting a few plants in the Soilmaster Select, I decided that the Soilmaster Select was good enough on it's own. It held plants well and wes pretty nice looking.

Please note that Soilmaster and Soilmaster Select are two different products. The "Select" is of a much smaller particle size and is very uniform in size compared to regular Soilmaster. I'm not sure they make Soilmaster regular in a charcoal color either and that may lead to a lot of folk's problems with getting "Soilmaster" in the charcoal color. I think there may be some confusion out there between Soilmaster and Soilmaster Select


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## acbaldwin (Nov 3, 2005)

MatPat said:


> Please note that Soilmaster and Soilmaster Select are two different products. The "Select" is of a much smaller particle size and is very uniform in size compared to regular Soilmaster. I'm not sure they make Soilmaster regular in a charcoal color either and that may lead to a lot of folk's problems with getting "Soilmaster" in the charcoal color. I think there may be some confusion out there between Soilmaster and Soilmaster Select


I think you're right... I was just gonna comment on how much soilmaster sucks at holding down plants (IMO). Must've had Select.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

To answer your question about the softer substrates, yes, they will break down after a couple years and get mushy. I don't recommend them for the long haul. 

I would recommend the Soilmaster Select as well. The Onyx sand will only serve to harden your already hard water even more. Eco complete has a grain size that is too large for a lot of tougher plants to plant such as HC.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Hmmmm. I see a trend here. Has anyone suggested to the people that make Soilmaster select that they market their stuff to fish shops?

I appreciate everyone's input. After seeing a demo tank put together at a recent NEAPS meeting with Eco Complete I was under the impression that its grain size was quite a bit smaller than Flourite. Am I correct in this assumption? I actually liked it quite a bit. I have some HC in my current tank with Fluorite but the grains are too big to let it root nicely.

Just to clarify MatPat - those photos in the link you gave above are with just plain soilmaster select, charcoal? In the photos the substrate looks almost jet black (very nice IMO). If this is really what it looks like I might try it. Think it will last a few years?

Thinking of buying 15 bags of Eco Complete was worrying me a bit too - $$$$$$$.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

guaiac_boy said:


> Hmmmm. I see a trend here. Has anyone suggested to the people that make Soilmaster select that they market their stuff to fish shops?


I e-mailed the Soilmaster Folks a long time ago and told them of my intended use for the product. Their marketing director called me and we have had a few discussions on it since then  As of our last conversation, they did not have plans to market it to LFS.



guaiac_boy said:


> Just to clarify MatPat - those photos in the link you gave above are with just plain soilmaster select, charcoal? In the photos the substrate looks almost jet black (very nice IMO). If this is really what it looks like I might try it. Think it will last a few years?


The photos in the link (at least my photos) are just the Soilmaster Select. The tank I set up with the peat and mulm is 100% Soilmaster Select. It is a Charcoal color but definately not Jet Black. That is really what it will look like and I expect it to last as long as Eco, Flourite or regular gravel 



guaiac_boy said:


> Thinking of buying 15 bags of Eco Complete was worrying me a bit too - $$$$$$$.


Most definately! Tom Barr had mentioned to SWOAPE that we try and find some Turface Black for our tanks. I couldn't find Turface black locally and ran across a semi-local distributor who offered us some Soilmaster Select. Of course we could only order it by the ton....After a bunch of research and a few phone calls to the Soilmaster folks, we decided to give Soilmaster Select a shot and found a distributor in Cincinnati willing to work with us.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK,

I think you guys have presented a pretty good case. The stuff is as cheap as dirt (hahahahahaha), has a great color, seems to keep plants down pretty good, and shouldn't mess too much with the water chemistry.

The only thing I'm worried about is finding the stuff. We're moving to a little town in Idaho which is a very long way from anything. I'll be about 2 hrs from Salt Lake City and 2 hours from Boise. I'm probably a days drive from the next nearest planted tank . Suffice it to say that the UPS guy and I will be good friends.


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## fishguy92127 (Mar 16, 2006)

so where do i get this soilmaster select? i'm in san diego, ca and am doing my research before starting a planted tank. anybody local know where we can get this substrate? thanx.


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## fishguy92127 (Mar 16, 2006)

disregard last post. found a bag at a local lesco store. going to get a bag today.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

guaiac_boy said:


> The only thing I'm worried about is finding the stuff. We're moving to a little town in Idaho which is a very long way from anything. I'll be about 2 hrs from Salt Lake City and 2 hours from Boise.


You could always purchase it before you move and take it with you.

How are you getting from Mass. to Idaho? If your travels take you through Ohio on I-70, let me know. We could met somewhere. I can probably get you a few bags from the Cincinnati Lesco!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

MatPat said:


> You could always purchase it before you move and take it with you.
> 
> How are you getting from Mass. to Idaho? If your travels take you through Ohio on I-70, let me know. We could met somewhere. I can probably get you a few bags from the Cincinnati Lesco!


Driving..... 2 cars, 5 kids, maybe not a ton of room. Sounds like a blissful trip huh? "Honey, why do we need this dirt?"  All roads from Mass to Idaho do lead through Ohio though....... I would, of course, need to see your tanks...... We could probably put it on top of the minivan............ Hmmmmmmmmmm. Very nice offer. How many bags do you think for a tank 72"x24"?

I'll let you know - There are a couple of places in Utah that might be able to order it in. I'll give them a call & see what they can do.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Definately sounds like a blissful trip, though I'm not sure blissful is the right word. Seeing the tanks would not be an issue and it would give you a chance to see the Soilmaster Select in a tank in person 

For a 180g tank I would guesstimate 2-3 bags depending on the depth you want. Someone here recently set up a 240g tank, (8'x2' footprint) and used 3 bags. Having a little extra on hand never hurts. You never know when the bug to set up a "Growout" tank will bite.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK - It seems that the local distributor here in Worcester, MA has about 50 bags of the charcoal color in stock that someone ordered for a local ball field. The store is about 1/4 mile from my house. The ballfield people changed their mind and went with a different color so he's more than willing to get rid of it. So much for it being hard to find huh? Now I've just got to convince my movers that moving bags of dirt across the country is worthwhile. Oh well, I'm sure they're used to everone being bizzare in one way or another.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Sounds like some good luck on your part. Make sure to let the NEAPS folks know of your find! At ~$16 per 50lb bag this is something that folks may want to try. It is a bargain if you like it and not too expensive to get rid of if you don't, though I have yet to hear of someone who doesn't like it.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

My find!!!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

dennis said:


> My find!!!


 Right you are.

It was under my nose this whole time.............


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I know between the two of you, NEAPS folks will be able to get some  Once they do, make sure they let folks know how they like it!


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Actually GB already picked it up 

I can't wait to try it!


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## geministudios54 (Mar 27, 2005)

*ADA vs Soilmaster select*

Hey Matt....With your experience with the soilmaster product, do you feel it can more than hold it's own vs the ADA substrate products..I'm setting up a 140gal. for a showroom and price isn't an overall factor, however great plant growth is!!!....Your thoughts??

....Thanx....Jeff


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I haven't used ADA products yet so I really can't say how it will stand up. 

Everyone in SWOAPE that has used it is getting good results. There seems to be better root growth than with Eco Complete or Flourite and less rinsing than Flourite (I didn't rinse my Soilmaster). However, I really don't think there is a whole lot of difference between most substrates if you adequately fertilize the water column. Aesthetics would be the main difference of course. 

In my opinion, the substrate only comes into play for those who are either to lazy to dose, to forgetful to dose (I fall into both of those categories sometimes) or for low light tanks. 

Soilmaster won't break down over time so if long term setup is a goal, I would use the Soilmaster Select (make sure to use select since it has a very uniform grain size). Again, I have no experience with ADA products so I don't know their longevity.


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## geministudios54 (Mar 27, 2005)

Soilmaster it is!!...Root growth, uniform texture, dark grey, great price...Hard to beat that combo!!!..

...Thanx for your opinion....


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, I do not think there';s much differences between EC, F, O, SM.

The differences:
Cost is the main one.
Aesthetics is the other.

I like the ADA soil out of all the substrates, took a little getting use to, but now I really like it for the looks, the lack of any rinsing, the cost(a little less than the EC/Flourite), never scratches your glass when cleaning, grows plants better when you neglect the tank, get lazy etc.

It certainly improves the health of most all plants vs the intert substrates, probably due to a few different processes(a plant available source of NH4 without making an algae bloom, softer texture, more AEC and CEC and our own habits).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TexasRock (Feb 28, 2006)

OK, I have never heard nor seen a Lesco store... 

I live in San Angelo, Texas... is there somewhere here that may carry it? 

Is Lesco a hardware store? What is the specialty of the store... that would help narrow my search.

Thanks!

Keith


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

TexasRock said:


> OK, I have never heard nor seen a Lesco store...
> 
> I live in San Angelo, Texas... is there somewhere here that may carry it?
> 
> ...


Lesco is more of a warehouse than a store and caters mainly to the professional Lawn Care or Turf Care business. Think of things like professional sports fields and Golf Courses.

The Lesco website should be able to anwer most of not all of your questions. Simply plug your zip code into the "Stores Near You" box in the link below and you will be able to find the nearest Lesco. I used 76902 (City Hall Plaza's zip code) and found three Lescos in the area.

http://www.lesco.com/


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