# 20 Gallon questions



## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

So i got this 20 gallon tall from a neighbor and thinking its gonna be my premier plant tank.
here i am with a few questions. i have read alot since i joined this forum so these are the question i have that i couldnt find the answer too.

What type of filtration should i run. Not lookin to really spend the money for a canister filter for such a small tank. But i still want some clarity in the tank and i know the best thing for that is better filtration.
Really was thinking a powerhead but theres too many to choose and i dont know what size to get. If i do 3 watts per gallon do i need to use CO2? The longer the light is on the more CO2 i am gonna need?
What would be a good number of fish i could keep in here? Mainly looking at tetras. I already plan for my German Blue Ram and Ocat.

How many inches of substrant do i really need. What is the minumum and whats too much.
I also have Tiger Oscars in my 75 Gallon tank. Are there any specific plant that is more durable and not likely to be dug up?

Thanks for taking the time to reply


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If you're going planted, try to get a canister. Personally I find the Rena XP series the best for the price (~$100 new).

For something like $60-$80 you can get a 250gph HOT Magnum filter; not sure about its reputation.

Either way, you need to have something to pull particles out of the column, or you're going to find your tank full of sludge with a nasty column. If you must go cheap, get a HOB and stuff it full of filter floss, unless you're planning DIY or compressed CO2, in which case it's more or less a waste of time.

A powerhead would be a good additional purchase if you're doing CO2; needle wheel mods are the best way I know of to get CO2 in to a tank.

If you do 3wpg you're going to want compressed CO2. To be honest, you'd probably want it with anything over 2 wpg. Try more like 1.5-1.75wpg of t8, 1WPG of T5HO with individual parabolic reflectors. If you want to push up to 2wpg, I'd say grab some excel along with DIY CO2.

otos and a GBR will work just fine. Be careful with GBR's though; I find they like to pump em' full of hormones, they make for short lived little monsters. Beware insanely bright rams from big box stores; look for a LFS where the manager works at the front desk, and his fish come from customers/local breeders as much as anything.

Shrimp are a popular addition; cherry reds are the good looking easy go-to. Some small schooling fish would probably look good, and there's a whole ton of those that are compatible.

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

whats a column? never heard that term.

I was also reading in the el natural section which peaked my interest. I read that the decomposing of food and stuff happens in the soil and supplies CO2. Would it be enough if i had plenty of fish so i wouldnt have to add CO2?
I would like to stay away from adding CO2 if i could. 
So If i go with med and low light plants the 3 watts per gallon is gonna demand CO2? So if i lower the light time would that take away the need of CO2?


so different size lights will give off more light? does it matter what i get? and which is most perfered?

Spidey


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## Veloth (Jun 25, 2008)

Philosophos was talking about the water in your tank when he mentioned the column. IMO T5 lights are the best, I believe they provide the most bang for the buck. At 3 wpg you're going to need some sort of carbon in your tank. I've never used excel so I can't say how it works but I've read a lot of posts that say it's great. Without some sort of co2 with that much light I think algae would be rampant.


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

also another question concerning the Kelvin of the light. Is 10000K too much? should i just stick with 6700K?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Silentspidey said:


> I was also reading in the el natural section which peaked my interest. I read that the decomposing of food and stuff happens in the soil and supplies CO2. Would it be enough if i had plenty of fish so i wouldnt have to add CO2?


Ya, enough fish would do that... at the expense of low flow rates and a decreased level of O2 in the water, which I'm sure the fish wouldn't appreciate. I've had drop checkers go yellow from surface scum and lack of surface disturbance; the stress levels are higher, and sensitive fish don't do so well. You'll notice this with fish that come from rivers when they're tossed in to a standing body of water simulation. I think there's some confusion between recreating nature for the art of it, and targeting healthy plants and fish. They aren't completely mutually exclusive, but they aren't identical either.



Silentspidey said:


> I would like to stay away from adding CO2 if i could.
> So If i go with med and low light plants the 3 watts per gallon is gonna demand CO2? So if i lower the light time would that take away the need of CO2?


If you go with any plants under 3wpg of any fluorescent lighting I know of suited to aquariums, you're going to want compressed CO2. Many plants do not uptake CO2 through the roots well enough to survive; this is a topic covered by a couple different research papers. Not only that, quite frequently nutrient limitation (usually PO4) is required in order to retain health growth, which makes problems with green spot algae.

Why the apprehension with CO2 on a 3wpg system? And why do you want 3wpg anyhow? I have compressed CO2, and 3wpg of CF over a tank; it's a pain. I'm thankful that the water is tannin stained and the bulb is old right now, it's made it so I don't need to hack away at the tank once or twice a week.

Try some low light out if you don't want CO2; there are many non-CO2 requiring plants that will grow beautifully in non-CO2 tanks. A little DIY CO2 is cheap, easy and safe, and a bit of excel can help. Believe it or not, it's not a matter of high light requirement plants, but high CO2 requirement plants. This is something relatively new to the hobby, but it's making its way around.



Silentspidey said:


> so different size lights will give off more light? does it matter what i get? and which is most perfered?


Ya, different kinds of light will give off more light at various efficiency rates depending on the type of light. People are buying up T5HO's because they're popular, cheap, and they're fairly efficient with their reflectors, bulb diameter, etc. and to be honest, I use them. But they aren't the only answer, or even the best. A lot of very good planted tank keepers run a bank of T5 normal output or T8 shop lights with programmed start ballasts to increase bulb life. The lower wattage per bulb means more sources of light, and better spread for the same wattage as one or two very bright bulbs. Naturally this means a higher price tag even though it's older technology, and some DIY work.

Just be sure to work on light distribution; use two bulbs rather than one to get the equivalent wattage, and be sure to space them out. Good distribution will help plants more than just plowing them with more light. This is not to say you can't use most bulbs to grow healthy plants, there are just different ideals.



Silentspidey said:


> also another question concerning the Kelvin of the light. Is 10000K too much? should i just stick with 6700K?


Don't get your self wrapped up with K ratings; they aren't so important as people make them sound. Most kinds of light can be messed with to provide enough for good plant growth. 10,000K or 6700K or 50/50 10,000/6700k etc. will do fine. Buy what makes your tank look good.

-Philosophos


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Philosophos is always good to heed. I always appreciate reading his posts. I have learned from him.


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

Philosophos, thanks for the reply. Im taking it all in like a sponge 

On the surface scum i was thinking maybe run a bubble rock at night to help with the fish's O2. And when the light is on i would turn it off. I read that at night plants start to take in O2 instead of CO2 is that correct?

I wouldnt mind doing the DIY CO2 reactor. Sounds a lil fun. I read somewhere about using a paintball tank?

So ur telling me i could go to Home Depot and buy any of those 24 inch Fluorescent light and use it? Like a normal Fluorescent light, as long as the wattage was correct and what not.

i found this and wanted to know if this is an ok brand to buy. The price seems to good to be true.
http://shop.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=51103&Show=TechSpecs

thanks for the replies
-Spidey


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Power compact lights aren't as good as T5's. They give less light with the same amount of heat and electricity. That fixture has 1 bulb so all your light will come down from one area. I don't know what kind of reflector it has. Remember when you use a light that sits above the water as that one does you loose some of the light's intensity. So... you won't be getting all 65watts into your tank. It will spill out around your tank. It still may give you enough light depending on what plants you choose. Also the bulbs loose their intensity with age so that you can only count on 65 watts for maybe 8 months. After that they get weaker and weaker. The cost kind of adds up with time. T5's last longer. I have a friend that swear that the Geisseman midday bulbs will last 8 years. A little more costly up front but way way cheaper over the long run....

Fish don't need an airstone at night. They will be fine. Airstones will degass you CO2. Why do that at all? Keep it in your water. If you are worried about your DIY CO2 just remove the diffuser at night. I never even did this and my fish were always fine. I made sure I had the spray bar of my filter creating a little ripple on the top of the water. That will also keep you from having any surface scum on the water's top.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Silentspidey said:


> On the surface scum i was thinking maybe run a bubble rock at night to help with the fish's O2. And when the light is on i would turn it off. I read that at night plants start to take in O2 instead of CO2 is that correct?


This is a good method; Takashi Amano is probably the biggest name known for doing it. I believe he gets fancy and pumps in pure O2 just because he can. I've been considering similar.

Now how that would go in a non-compressed system would be a little different; you'd end up with your residual CO2 gassing off and then having fluctuations during the day from trying to re-establish the lost CO2. If this causes any dips below non-limiting CO2 levels, BBA issues will be almost inevitable. Personally with low light/tech I like to run an air stone of some sort 24x7. The plants don't look too needy, the algae stays low, and the fish are happy. Air contains piles of CO2 (400ppm+ I believe) so diffusing it in to the water in a stable system is good all around.

In the case of DIY CO2, you may be able to find a balance; perhaps run an air stone for 2-3 hours after lights out to give the fish a break. I haven't tinkered with DIY a ton though; I've kept yeast cultures for sourdough and figured compressed was more worth my time for fish. What ever you do, don't bother putting the CO2 in to a HOB intake. Lots of people do this for some reason, and they're just gassing their CO2 away by laying it all out on the waters surface.



Silentspidey said:


> I wouldnt mind doing the DIY CO2 reactor. Sounds a lil fun. I read somewhere about using a paintball tank?


It's a waste of money long-term IMO. Save up another $50 and get a 5lb system. The Co2 will cost less, and you'll only have to change it every 6 months or so on a 20 gal, vs monthly for a paintball system. You'll also have a system that'll allow for better upgrading in the future should you want to split the CO2 lines for multiple tanks.



Silentspidey said:


> So ur telling me i could go to Home Depot and buy any of those 24 inch Fluorescent light and use it? Like a normal Fluorescent light, as long as the wattage was correct and what not.


If you can rig it up in a satisfactory way, it'll work just fine. Some of the bulbs are a bit on the yellow side for my taste, but you can always change that or buy the system separately. Fluorescent lighting in the hobby started with shop lights, and they still do just fine. The only catch would be the ballasts; programmed start aren't cheap, and multiple bulbs being changed out can get expensive. You'll have to do some pricing for your area.



Silentspidey said:


> i found this and wanted to know if this is an ok brand to buy. The price seems to good to be true.
> http://shop.aquatraders.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=51103&Show=TechSpecs


I recognize the brand but know nothing about it. The lighting type and intensity is what I've used over a 20 gal, a 28 gal bowfront, plus 28 gal emersed growth with a few kinds of bulb. It's a lot of light coming down from one place, but it'll grow plants. You've got to keep your stems well trimmed so they don't blot out the light down below, and set the fixture over the top 1/3rd of the tank if you're doing a typical low front/high back layout.

The nice thing is with a bulb like this, you don't have to worry 6 months later when it loses a large part of its output; you'll just get slower plant growth. Everything should carry on fairly healthy.

-Philosophos


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> Fish don't need an airstone at night. They will be fine. Airstones will degass you CO2. Why do that at all? Keep it in your water. If you are worried about your DIY CO2 just remove the diffuser at night. I never even did this and my fish were always fine. I made sure I had the spray bar of my filter creating a little ripple on the top of the water. That will also keep you from having any surface scum on the water's top.


Pushing high O2 at night is something fish and plants will appreciate, and it doesn't take much effort. Given that there's no light, photosynthesis isn't going on. This means pure O2 uptake to perform the entire calvin cycle, which is limited by RuBisCO and O2 rather than CO2.

Adding an air stone in at night also resets the CO2, presuming it can re-establish to non limiting levels as the night goes on (some people use a 1L bottle, why not go for a 1 gal?). The idea is simply that a multi-day buildup of CO2 could be the only thing putting the tank in to non-limiting levels. Gas-offs like water changes happening inconsistently, top offs, or surface splashing created by rain bars after the water evaporates can all lead to limiting levels of CO2 for more than a day while it re-establishes.

I've had a lot of time to think on this... mostly as an inverse dealing with toxicity because of surface film issues due to airborn particles and high bioloads 

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

So im goin to my LFS and Home Depot today to do a lil research with my newly aquired info. I will get back with updates 
-Spidey


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

So i found something that i couldnt pass up. The combination of my anxiousness and a cheap price i bought a used light from the LFS. They have a side spot for local people to sell stuff there. 25 bucks for 24 inch Jebo Power Compact. 
One double bulb thats 55 Watts and an Actnic 55 Watt.
im not sure if actnic does anything. so i have this over my 2 inches of Eco-Complete. (how am i doin so far?)
I was wondering if 2 inches is enough or should i add more.

i have one plant lol cause i wanted to look some **** up. How many plants can i add at one time.

No the tank isnt cycled. Just started a HOB with filter floss stuffed to the gills. Also to help with the cycle i have some of my Convict cichlid babies in there maybe like 10 of them.

So tomorrow i will make my run to the store to see what looks good for my tank. 
So how soon will i need CO2?

ok thats all i can think of. thanks again for the replies


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

also i just thought of this. could i use an internal filter?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Good buy on the 55w. If it's a 50/50 what ever K rating/actinic then it's not a horrible bulb. Personally, I'd buy what looks good if it's too blue looking for you.

Plants aren't like fish. The questions is not how many you dare to add, but how few. Pack the tank out with cheap, idiot-proof plants if you can. It's a good plan when you're starting a tank before you know what should go in precisely; many of us have done it. Often it's better to blow $50-$100 all at once in plants on a 20 gal rather than bleeding out $200 over the next year of frustration :icon_hang

2 inches total is good, but you'll probably find it more useful to slope that substrate; go 3in in the back and 1in in the front. You'll get the illusion of depth, and more rooting room in the back for bigger plants. I have yet to hear of anyone who's been dissatisfied after doing the typical flat bottom design. It's a transitional method before getting into complex curves with things like ADA aquasoil.

As for CO2, get it in as soon as you can. If it's compressed, then great. If it's DIY, do two bottles rather than one, get your self some excel, and stay away from vals, moss and vascular plants. If you're doing DIY and BBA (black beard/brush algae) pops up, decrease your photoperiod along with raising the high of the lamp, or obscuring the light. Use a fogged custom-cut piece of acrylic, raise the light up, add a screen, what ever it takes. 

For a 20 gal, I'd opt out of an internal filter personally unless it's got a rather large amount of filter media. Try something more like a rena XP1 (lowest price for the best quality) or similar. I clog one of these up in 1-2 months on a new tank depending on the species introduced, but it keeps the tank clear of decomposing plant matter from adjustment shock.

And before I forget, what are you doing for fertilizers? A tank like this is going to need a good NPK mix plus trace. If you don't want to mix your own, Seachem Equilibrium is about twice the price of DIY, but it's reliable. Along side that, you can do CSM+B or the more easily available Flourish. It's not so much that I push seachem brands for a living, but I find it's easy to get your hands on, and a simple place to start until all the insanity settles down. 

Oh, do lots of water changes when you get those plants in. Some plants will melt, some algae will fling spores in to the water, lots of unfriendly things will happen if you don't pull very regular water changes. 50% every other day for a couple of weeks will save your sanity in the long run, so will a DIY python (or name brand if you like). I relax or multi-task while I do my water changes thanks to these things.

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

Imma take a pic of the light  
so u were awake when i was awake. 
So im gonna go to my LFS soon to pick out some plants that i like. probly stayin with med - low light plants. I have some ideas and i also seen some ideas i wanna do. 

I have Leaf Zone as my fert. i didnt know much about this topic. im about to start browsing in that thread. 

So now that i have plants. what am i testing for and what am i looking for.

My water is very soft as well is that gonna make a difference?
How do i know i have enough light or CO2 or fertilizing. i also heard of dosing everyday instead of once a week. breaking it down in smalled doses. what do u think?
Or do i learn all this as i go?

thanks for the help


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Enough light is rarely the problem, and it won't be with what you've got running. The challenge will be keeping up with the light via CO2. The nutrients can be easy, but just using most name brands at recommended doses will usually end up with deficiencies.

The best job you can do for monitoring CO2 at first is a drop checker. You can pick up a cheap one for about $10, or even $2 if you don't mind a slightly less appealing plastic one. Use a 4KH solution in it, which you can either order or make it with baking soda (if you have a scale).

Dosing is something you can do every other day or so, personally I do it every day of the week save one. If you want to get into DIY ferts and plant nutrition requirements, there's a pile of resources I can link you to, and I'd be willing to help you go through putting it all together. If you're not up for that yet, it'd probably be easiest for you to either go out and get a big 600g container of equilibrium and some flourish, along with flourish excel.

here's an article that outlines more or less how I, and many others, handle keeping nutrients stable in their planted tanks:
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html

It does outline some DIY fert methods with it, but there are modifications to it that simplify things somewhat.

-Philosophos


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

The advantage of a paintball system is only space, IMO. If you have your tank somewhere where you can't have or don't want all that big equipment a paintball system is definitely the way to go. As Phliosophos said it is way more expensive a way to buy the CO2, but then it doesn't always come down to that. For me it was and remains a matter of space consideration.


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> The advantage of a paintball system is only space, IMO. If you have your tank somewhere where you can't have or don't want all that big equipment a paintball system is definitely the way to go. As Phliosophos said it is way more expensive a way to buy the CO2, but then it doesn't always come down to that. For me it was and remains a matter of space consideration.


i guess i really havent thought of space as an issue. i have a whole room for just my fish tanks  
but this is one is in my bed room. it will look the best im sure. How much space are we talking?
is it big and ugly and in the way or can i tuck it somewhere with the canister filter?

Tex Girl where is Joshua, TX from Houston? just curious never heard of the town 

The canister is about the size of a 32 oz drink. Then you have to allow room for the regulator. That's it. It is small.

Joshua is Southwest of Fort Worth about 20min.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If you can manage a space about 12x12x24, you can fit anything all the way up to a 20lb tank. How nice they look depends on where and how you buy. Personally I'd advice going with an ugly, engine paint covered 5lb that you can exchange. Most places send tanks away to be filled, or just simply offer a direct exchange. In most cases, over 5lb means sending away. I keep a 5lb and a 15lb because I run multiple CO2 tanks, and the 5lb is a nice one to fill in with while the 15lb is being sent off.

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

yay time for an update.

so have it set all up. AquaClear 30 for the water movement.
I also have a DIY CO2 going. Been dosing Excel and been doin water changes every other day. The CO2 seems to be coming out pretty fast. i have an air stone at the end and it rises to the intake of the powerhead. I didnt wanna put it on the valve on top and risk it sucking **** in the tank. how much co2 do i lose if i use a airstone. is a glass bell deffuser better?

I have crazy algae all over the walls and plants and substrant. looks cloudy and the algae comes off pretty well when i brush it. How can i make this stop?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Switched to a completely submerged powerhead; a little viaaqua will be reliable, and it'll do better than what you've got right now. If that aquaclear is pumping the water out to the surface, then you're losing nearly all of your CO2.

Turn up your excel dosing to .5ml/gal of column (20 gal tank would be about 8ml on the safe side), do 50% water changes every 2-3 days to knock out anything in the column. Keep up on your dosing.

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Switched to a completely submerged powerhead; a little viaaqua will be reliable, and it'll do better than what you've got right now. If that aquaclear is pumping the water out to the surface, then you're losing nearly all of your CO2.
> 
> Turn up your excel dosing to .5ml/gal of column (20 gal tank would be about 8ml on the safe side), do 50% water changes every 2-3 days to knock out anything in the column. Keep up on your dosing.
> 
> -Philosophos


am i dosing everyday. there is a lil water ripple on top. doesnt seem to be any water breakage. u can just see the water moving around. is it ok that i use the airstone or should something esle. kinda on a budget right now. trying to save for lots of things. If im losing too much CO2, should i add another DIY reactor? i need to take some pics to post. my german blue ram looks like hes haveing a hard time breathing. would he go to the top if he had problems. cause the fish seem to be breathing a big harder but still are fairly active.

HAPPY LABOR DAY btw 

-spidey


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

The CO2 might be getting to them. I'm not sure where all the algae is coming from, you could try doubling up the CO2. Normally fish go to the top when gassed.

Pictures would definitely be helpful.

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

here are some pics. i have the light right on top. i dont have nothing to raise it. and 
no acrylic cause home depot cant cut it for me.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Now that clears things up quite a bit in terms of figuring things out.

That powerhead is gassing off all your CO2. It's taking water from your tank, and spraying it out as a mist above the water. This is why I was suggesting a submerged powerhead for CO2 distribution. 

You've also got little or no mechanical filtration to remove particles, which is why I was commenting that a canister filter works best. Anything that gets sucked in smaller than the filter grade won't get spat back out. A canister won't gas your CO2 off either when used correctly.

You should get a whole ton more plants as well; pack that tank out. Your rotala looks like it's shot, but luckily it shouldn't be expensive to replace.

I'm not sure your LMW cichlid (can't tell if it's a demasoni or juvie frontosa) is thrilled about the water conditions, and it may not always play nice with your plants.

-Philosophos


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## Silentspidey (Aug 23, 2009)

thats a baby convicts i had to help cycle the tank 
im working on a sponge filter now for a bit of the debris. 
so i should fully submerge the powerhead. 
im saving for a canister filter. Im hope im in the right direction. 
Yes i need more plants. just didnt want to pack it too tight cause i was a bit cautious, but now i know after reading a bit i should stock it a bit more 

thanks Philosophos ill update soon


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ya, get that powerhead as low as you can, drill a hole in the intake, stuff the tube as close as you dare to the impeller. If you can take it apart and slice the impeller fins horizontally with a hobby knife (careful not to break them, the plastic may be brittle, in which case don't cut) then bend them in opposite directions.

You know, you'd think after years of fish keeping i'd be able to spot juvie convicts >.<

Aggressive cichlids haven't exactly been my thing.

If you're trying to save money, opt for cheap, fast-growing plants until you can afford the fancier stuff along with the methods to keep it better.

Good luck with the tank.

-Philosophos


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