# Tom Barr



## CrownMan (Sep 12, 2005)

Has Tom Barr been banned/"Barred"! from APC. I read this post at www.barrreport.com. If so, WHY?

Here is the text of his post:

I've been banned from APC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the APC:

Quote:
You have been banned for the following reason:
None

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

I was banned for editting my own post.

So don't look for me there

Regards, 
Tom Barr

End of post:

As John pointed out, only members to the Barr Report can see the following post whichs is copied above:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2336


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

Only members to his site can see the post you've linked to.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Thats wierd he says he was banned for editing his own posts. Kinda wierd.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, I don't know if he was banned but he spent all last night editing virtually all his posts to remove their original content.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Well, either way this may make some people angry and some others happy. I am a member of both forums so it doesnt bother me too much. Only if he was banned for some personal grudge from 1 person. If he truely bent the rules too far then ok, but if it was unjust well then thats not very fair for the rest of us. I am sure there was more behind what had happened than just him editing his posts, but what?


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## BJRuttenberg (Sep 25, 2005)

whether he edited _HIS_ Posts or not, that is his prerogative...If users aren't allowed to edit their posts then APC shouldn't allow the editing of previous posts. However, this is not the issue at hand...the real issue is that an important and respected member of the APC community and the aquatic plant community at large has been banned from APC for what appears to be no reason and I for one would like to know that there is a legitimate reason for this and that it is not an abuse of power.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Having beena forum Moderator in the past, I can safely say that IF he was banned there must have been just cause. APC has always been very forgiving and tries extreemly hard to be accomadating and provide second chances. I won't speculate as to what may have happened but IMO, deleting all your posts in the wee hours of the morning is very immature. He is not just taking his toys and going home, deleting all his posts is like breaking eveyone elses toys on his way out.


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## BJRuttenberg (Sep 25, 2005)

dennis said:


> Having beena forum Moderator in the past, I can safely say that IF he was banned there must have been just cause. APC has always been very forgiving and tries extreemly hard to be accomadating and provide second chances. I won't speculate as to what may have happened but IMO, deleting all your posts in the wee hours of the morning is very immature. He is not just taking his toys and going home, deleting all his posts is like breaking eveyone elses toys on his way out.


I agree that deleting all of his posts may be immature but is that grounds to kick him from the forum forever...I mean, this is a guy who up until recently consistently provided a wealth of valuable insight to this community...is it possible he just had a really bad day and made a blundering mistake in anger?

Booting him from the froum for a short period to allow him to think about what he was doing...okay, cool. But completely exiling this guy??? If nothing else it is a blow to the intellectual core of APC...


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## mrbelvedere138 (Jan 18, 2006)

Is deleting his old posts really immature? It would be my little way of saying "F**K YOU, APC!!" Barr was an invaluable asset, and if APC obviously feels they don't need him, then his posts aren't very important to them. Barr is still more than welcome over at the PT forum.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Abuse of power, I do not believe so. Only Art or Gnatster can ban someone, moderators do not have that power.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Before we jump the gun and start bashing APC, lets all simmer down and learn the whole story.


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## heidisue (May 3, 2006)

and that information would be found....where?


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## CrownMan (Sep 12, 2005)

If APC is truly barring an icon, Tom Barr, then the paying members of this forum have a right to know why. Will someone associated with APC and this decision step up and provide a thorough explanation please?

Mike


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

I agree some explanation is in order???


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

dennis said:


> Before we jump the gun and start bashing APC, lets all simmer down and learn the whole story.


Dennis is right. I'll close this thread for now. Although entertaining, there's no reason to speculate. A more comprehensive statement will be released to explain the reasons and offenses. Thank you for understanding.

-John N.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Thanks John. I opened it up again.

All, I'll be happy to take your questions and comments as I always have. However, please bear in mind that this is a subject that I would have preferred not to discuss in public. Unfortunately, Tom is making it public so regrettably I must make my answers public as well.

I banned Mr. Barr from APC. It was after long thought and consideration and after many communications from me and other members of the APC staff informing him that he was violating APC policy and rules.

APC is run very democratically and for the benefit of our members and those that choose not to register but still benefit from the wealth of information voluntarily donated to our database. We are merely a organizer of this information so that the current generation of hobbyists and future generations can learn from the experience of others.

I was quite shocked to wake up yesterday to find that Tom, offended by something we did, decided to remove all his posts from APC and say "Goodbye" to us. I then heard from various others that he was making no bones about why he left.

I am saddened and upset that Tom would feel the need to literally remove his valuable posts from a database that is free to everyone and that, I thought, was freely given by him to the hobby (not APC). So, based on all the facts, I decided to give Tom what he wants- he is no longer a member of APC.

My friends, there certainly is a reason for Tom not being here. I have not disclosed all details here as I find it unnecessary. I only ask that you consider that there are always two sides to every story.

Tom was not banned for political reasons (we have none here at APC) or for money. He simply was banned for not following the rules. I guess I should have put a reason for his banning, but I figured it might be obvious to him. I will rectify that situation in a personal email to Tom.

Now, lets get back to talking plants. If anyone wants to discuss this or any other matter, please contact me via email at [email protected] or via PM.

Best personal regards.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

He's a pretty big name in the hobby and when a hugely dramatic event occurs surrounding a big name, people want to know the full story. It's human nature.

I just did a search on posts by plantbrain and found this thread:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ic-problems/26370-blue-green-slime-algae.html

In short,


New member raygoh posts a question about blue green slime algae
trenac replies and suggests an initial water change and dosing of erythromycin to get rid of the algae that's currently present.
Tom Barr deleted his posts, but the gist of it is he made several posts disagreeing with trenac
trenac askes Tom, "be more tactful in the way you direct comments to people."
Tom then spends the _next several hours_ (starting sometime after 8:00 pm and going to nearly 5:00 am) deleting _every post he's made_ at APC. He leaves a cryptic rely in that thread, "Rather than dealing with sematics "how you say it", I have, I've deleted all my post on APC."

I have no firsthand knowledge of what happened, that's just the facts as I observe them.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Salt,

This is a difficult situation for everyone and one we only take as a last resort. Please understand that Tom's deletions are only part of the story.

We are a public forum. As such, we encourage the free exchange of ideas. Members are free to post what they want into the public database. They are also free to edit their posts. 

However, most forums don't allow large deletions of posts because it ruins the discussion for everyone. It leaves holes in the conversations and the value others will take from it is lessened. So, if you placed something into the public domain, you typically can't take it back unless it is copyrighted. That's why you can't ask Google to delete its indexing of your posts, etc.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

dennis said:


> IMO, deleting all your posts in the wee hours of the morning is very immature. He is not just taking his toys and going home, deleting all his posts is like breaking eveyone elses toys on his way out.


The loudest hinge gets the most oil!!! According to Tom, he invented the hinge .

I agree with you here dennis. I have been around here for awhile now. Tom is a knowlegable fellow....there are no doubts there. He has offered a lot of great tips for us all. He will tell you himself. Ok, that was sarcastic, but there is a layer of truth to both his knowledge and his egotistical demener.

HAHA

I support this forum 100%!! AG and the mods do a fantastic job of making sure our home is safe and fun. Most of the loud, annoying, and disruptive people in our hobby are not here for long. And this is why i hang out here most and support this forum. If it was time for Barr to go, then it was time for Barr to go. I am confident that AG did everything he could to make things right.....but sometimes compromize cannot be found.

jB


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## newellcr (Nov 16, 2004)

Art,

"I am saddened and upset that Tom would feel the need to literally remove his valuable posts from a database that is free to everyone and that, I thought, was freely given by him to the hobby (not APC). So, based on all the facts, I decided to give Tom what he wants- he is no longer a member of APC."

Tom's is generous with his time and his posts are valuable. Tom left because he didn't like some aspect of the APC. I think he would have preferred to stay and to continue to participate in the free forum. 

Hind sight is 20/20 , but there's probably a better way to resolve this situation than either self-exile or banning.

Kind Regards,

Chris


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Chris,

I do appreciate your comment. Thanks.



newellcr said:


> Tom's is generous with his time and his posts are valuable. Tom left because he didn't like some aspect of the APC. I think he would have preferred to stay and to continue to participate in the free forum.
> 
> Hind sight is 20/20 , but there's probably a better way to resolve this situation than either self-exile or banning.


I completely agree that Tom is generous with his time and his posts are valuable. As is the time and posts of many others. However, he removed his posts, not I. His actions and post quoted above seem to indicate he did not want to continue to participate in this free forum.

Also, just to reiterate, we attempted to resolve this matter plenty of times prior to taking the step we did. I would MUCH have preferred to work this out civilly and in private so that we don't waste people's times. I don't view the world in extremes or black and white and try to understand both sides. Unfortunately, that wasn't possible.

In any event, I do appreciate your sentiment and the spirit in which you posted.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

What I've seen a lot of forums do is allow editing of posts for 24 hours, then after that time, only mods or admins can edit posts.

I would guess APC doesn't do that since posters would only want to promote better understanding & information, and contribute to the hobby.

It's sad that the one individual who broke the norm was a well known and (for the most part) respected name.


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## dstephens (Nov 30, 2005)

I don't know that anyone really cares what I think, but I have subscribed to the Barr Report site from day one of my participation in the hobby. He has his on website where he can be the czar without someone asking him to be nice. I have very limited experience compared to many of you who have been on APC for years, but I have to say that I have advanced my capabilities as an aqaurist a great deal by asking questions that were never answered by Tom and by researching old threads that were started or contibuted to by everyone but Tom. 

The "tribal knowledge" and fellowship is what I signed up for here. The thing I despise about email and posting on sites like this is that we say things we would never say in person to someone. We also interpret things that people write completely out of context because we don't have the benefit of seeing the facial expression, body language or voice tones. If Tom came across as harsh in his reply to someone's question or comment, it is perhaps likely that a live conversation would have been perceived in a completely different light by all parties. Who knows. Whatever the case, he's a bright guy and you can always subscribe to his newsletter and website and there is a lot of open dialogue that takes place there. 

Darrell


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Thanks Chris.

Darrell,

I agree wholeheartedly. It is a disadvantage that the Internet brings us until such time as we can post a video capture of ourselves posting it. For the time being, we can use emoticons to try to show our expressions.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

Personally, I've never had much time for 'gurus'... especially self-advertised ones who like to swing their rep about like a wrecking ball, its tiresome really, and I won't miss having to read through that... so I agree with Art, let's get back to talking plants!


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## BJRuttenberg (Sep 25, 2005)

Raven, well put, "let's get back to talking plants!" Art...thanks for the detailed explanation and allowing for this civil discussion to take place...that's why I like it here.


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

dstephens said:


> I have very limited experience compared to many of you who have been on APC for years, but I have to say that I have advanced my capabilities as an aqaurist a great deal by asking questions that were never answered by Tom and by researching old threads that were started or contibuted to by everyone but Tom.
> 
> The "tribal knowledge" and fellowship is what I signed up for here.
> 
> Darrell


This post says it all. I share Darrell's sentiments exactly. I am an obsessive compulsive plant addict who visits EVERY board I can find EVERYWHERE in the world. THIS FORUM, is the best at providing valuable information, supportive hobbyists across all skill levels who participate and to quote Jason "is fun". Tom Barr is a smart guy who has helped a lot of folks, but he's not the only smart guy and I have to honestly say that I am often left feeling inadequate when participating in a thread. I also think there's an inherent change in a person's demeanor (and the way they are percieved by others) when they start approacing their passion as a business instead of as a hobby.

Back to talking plants. Cheers!


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## baccardilord (Feb 1, 2006)

*bummer*


Personally I am going to miss tom Barr's information on here. I dont have a lot of background in this field and am simply trying to run my tanks in the most efficient manner. I relied heavily on some of his information like ie dosing and what not. between him and that rex fellow I got a good grasp on what I was doing wrong and like to use them and this forum as my main source of reference when I get myself into trouble,(a common occurrence). I suppose if i want his information Ill have to subscribe now adding a small portion to my troubles Its just a complete pain in the anyways theres my 2 cents.


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## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

The details of EI can be found on his website barrreport in the nonsubscription or public topics. I have signed up on his site, but haven't subscribed. I don't know if you have to be a pseudo member like I am to view those articles or not as it has been some time since I went to the site and didn't auto log in.

Knowledge is power, so ataining some level of knowledge on aquariums has to be included in the continuum that is absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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## joephys (May 9, 2006)

Tom knows a lot about this stuff and is a well known icon in the hobby. But, just as celebs don't have any more right to violate the law, no one has any right to violate the rules here reguardless of who they are.

Art says that this is a public forum, and the admin allows anyone to join. It is however, technically not a public forum. The website belongs to the Admin and they need to do what they feel is needed for the integrity of the forum, no matter how long someone has been a member or how much everyone else wants them around.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

tom barr's experience will be missed i'm sure, but c'est la vie... life must move on. i appreciate the way Art handled the entire situation.


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## Ransom (May 3, 2006)

baccardilord said:


> ... I suppose if i want his information Ill have to subscribe now ...


Tom still seems to be posting on other (free) board(s) besides his own. Probably not polite of me to say which one(s) here, but...


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## Nick (Jan 12, 2005)

Let me get this right, he's been Barred from the website.....

sorry, English attempt at levity...


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Odd that this should happen so soon. But foreseeable. Tom has always come off as arrogant about his findings to me and many others. Though he does have a good amount of background and desire to test things scientifically. However, even if someone knows everything in the world it counts for nothing if they treat others like lesser beings and dismiss what they have to say in an unpleasant way.

On the other hand, we do not see the hundreds of accusing questions that many people ask/shove at him. I can understand how it must be hard for him to take so many blows that may come off as personal attacks on his work.

Pity


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Folks,

I appreciate all the comments and the very civil behavior.

The current situation aside, after more than 10 years administering forums (yes, I was once the Aquatic Plant Section leader for Compuserve) I can tell you that sooner or later, no matter how much you try, somebody is going to take your post the wrong way. We are all human and sometimes we can get a little testy or short. Sometimes we are multi-tasking and simply make a blunt statement when we should have couched it in a more understanding tone. Unfortunately, as was said above, these things happen because we can't see each other. Body language is important for communication. 

I'm sure Tom is guilty of this as are all of us from time to time. Certainly, if you are a prolific poster, you are bound to experience it more than others.


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## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

All I will add is that I have spoken with Tom extensively about this and while I maintain the utmost respect for Art and APC, I do find the whole thing a bit "petty". It's evident to me that the pettiness was perpetuated to varying extents by both sides resulting in an outcome that seems to outweight the issue itself. The "rules" and the this and that of a forum...I don't know, it's just aquariums after all, it's not life and death or anything. I have always thought that the "fairness" thing gets blown out of proportion due to the complaints of a few.-- i.e. a few complain "that's not fair!" and pretty soon drastic measures are taken to protect a few, in my opinion, "whiners" (I know because I have been that whiner myself before in life). The majority ends up punished for having had sense enough to keep things in perspective in the first place. Oh well, life goes on. Tom will still be around if you want to pick his brain-- this stuff's in his blood. Once you are in this hobby that deep, you never leave.

Ona side note, I think the ability to delete a post should exist though. Sometimes you just change your mind about something.


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## jimjim (Jan 25, 2004)

You know, I've been around these forums for a good many years (because I'm old) and have seen many silly little things get blown all out of proportion. (Heck, been in the middle of a lot of them). I've known Art and Tom (thru the internet only) for a long time and have to say this forum is probably the most forgiving of any of the forums. I'm going to have to fall on Arts side in this for that reason only. Toms attitude lately has been getting a bit testy, but I think mostly because if you're on top of a hill lots of people keep trying to knock you off and after awhile you get a bit defensive. This happens in daily life also. All this tho reminds me of another gurus problems. Anyone remember Dr Herbert Axelrod? He gave a lot to this hobby and the more he gave the testier (is that a word?) he got. Met him a couple of times about speaking engagements and business. By the 1980s he was a hard man to talk to. I understand he is now hiding out in Cuba because of some silly argument with the US government (actually a minor tax problem considering what others have done) and just wont work his problems out in a professional manner. I hope both parties here get over their argument (don't really care whos right or wrong), shake hands and get back to business (aquatic plants). This will do nothing for the hobby at all.....Jim


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

I think I know the whole story behind this, but will remain silent.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

OK folks. I think that's enough. I thank everyone for their comments.

Unless you are one of the parties involved, you probably don't have the whole story. Please allow said parties to deal with this issue in private and like adults.

Like Jeff said, this is supposed to be about planted aquariums and fun. So, lets focus on the plants.

Thread is closed.


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