# Nymphaea Bulb Plants for Outdoors



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I just set up an outdoor 20 gal to grow bulb plants and juvenile guppies. Last year in mid-summer I bought a few Nymphaea bulbs hoping to get a beautiful Tiger Lotus, but alas, nothing sprouted. Johnwelsley0's "porcelain posts' and affection for his lily inspired me to try again.

This year, I started earlier--before the bulbs dried out in the store. I bought Nymphaea, Aponogeton ulvaceus and Onion plant bulbs from PetCo (Imagitarium Brand) and planted them hoping that at least one would sprout. I put bulbs in pots with my clay garden soil and fertilized with garden bone meal. (There's a pile of wonderful forest topsoil from when mover crew originally leveled my mobile home site.) As you can see, the tank startup was a mess. The well leaked soluble iron causing the cloudiness. Then cold, rainy weather came right after I planted my bulbs. A temporary heater keeps temperature above 65F, plus I keep tank covered and wrapped tightly in bubble wrap at night.

One week later, things are looking up. Iron finally oxidized and settled to the bottom. Moreover, I was thrilled that about 5 days later, one of the larger Nymphaea bulbs produced 2 little red sprouts (see photo). I'm hoping that the lily is a Red Tiger Lotus! I've now added about 40 juvenile guppies to tank. Here are pics showing setup and the 5 day results. My goal is to get some lilies and other new plants going for a couple summer tanks.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It all looks beautiful to me! I can't help noticing that when people plant the tropical lilies that they are _bulbs _and that the so-called, "hardy", temperate zone, variety are _rhizomes_. Do I have that right?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Diana, this is exactly how I grow my waterlilies except I use Osmocote instead of bonemeal. As my ponds become increasingly shaded from trees, I grow mostly the tropical species used in aquaria because they are more shade tolerant. Red tiger is a cultivar of _Nymphaea lotus_ and has a night-blooming white flower. N. micrantha is a day blooming blue lily, and the cultivar usually seen in aguaria is 'Gerflect'. It has mottled submerged leaves, and the flowers are faintly mottled as well. It is exceptionally easy to propagate because new plantlets form in the V of old floating leaves. Of the cultitvars usually grown in ponds, 'Rhonda Kay' is a shade tolerant blue tropical hybrid that is actually cold hardy here in Dallas.

Johnwesley, most hardy waterlilies do have true rhizomes that slowly creep through the soil. Most tropical waterlilies are technically corms, a rounded structure that does not creep, but produced offsets. Corms of many species of plants are commonly called bulbs by gardeners, but this is technically incorrect.

Sorry, I love waterlilies and wish my ponds were sunnier so I could have more of them.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I’ll have to try lotus sometime. The leaves & flower grow above the waterline.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I have two seedlings of the native _Nelumbo lutea_ that are growing big enough to go into a friend's large pond. They are tricky, wish me luck.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Michael said:


> I have two seedlings of the native _Nelumbo lutea_ that are growing big enough to go into a friend's large pond. They are tricky, wish me luck.


Certainly do wish you luck! I didn't know that lotuses were native plants. They are so exotic.

Thanks for the info on lilies. Didn't given this a whole lot of thought. Just stuck the stuff into the pots.

Anyway, I'm excited about the one com that sprouted. What will it turn into? And if some of the other bulbs/coms sprout, then my $10 will be well spent.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Two weeks later, I would like to report more activity from the one large _Nymphaea_ bulb. Photo shows it in the 3rd pot from the left with the blue male guppy. A few of the other bulbs have also started to sprout. It has taken a little longer than I thought, but by summer I expect flourishing plant growth!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I have some water lilies out in the pond. It only took them a couple of weeks to send up leaves to the surface. I have a flower just yesterday. It seems like sunlight is a big factor.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I agree. Sunlight is the ultimate light source!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I think it's lovely. The color is fantastic and the leaf size looks like it is growing. The first two weeks certainly seems crucial. In my case, there was a point where my lily was clearly on the verge of either shriveling back up or growing further with some additional care. I too thought it would be sending up vertical shoots by now, but, I may just have to accept the idea that this is essentially a wild plant adjusting to captivity.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Here's photo at 3 weeks. A couple days ago, the Nymphaea, which looks like a Red Tiger Lotus, shot up a leaf to the surface. It's been so overcast lately, that I added an LED lamp last week. Actually, I might as well have set the tank up indoors.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Once the first leaf hits the surface they really take off!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I love this plant!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

They can only flower if they have aerial leaves, I think.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

mistergreen said:


> They can only flower if they have aerial leaves, I think.


It is possible for them to flower without emergent leaves, but rare. I've only seen it happen once. Most wait until they have at least several floating leaves.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Here's photos of my outdoor 20 gal at 1 month. The two Tiger Lotus bulbs have taken off with both submerged and emergent leaves. No flowers yet. Meanwhile, the other bulb--an onion--is struggling to come up and the Aponogeton never sprouted at all. 

As to photography, it is interesting the effect of light. I used late afternoon sun to bring out the iridescent blue color on the guppies. The other picture using artificial light does not do the fish justice.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

In anticipation of my first emergent leaf, I turned my lily's pot around so that it will "defend" the weak side of my floating ring:

















So much fun growing this. I wonder what made it decide to spurt like it has?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I think it takes time for them to produce roots and rhizomes. When they have, they start to send out floaters and then a flower.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> I think it takes time for them to produce roots and rhizomes. When they have, they start to send out floaters and then a flower.


I wonder whether it also coincides with the decomp of the soil sending out blasts of CO2? I find it curious that I started getting all these bubbles a few days before.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I love how by the end of the day, the emergent leaf is so heliotropic that it virtually folds over itself in order to bend to the floodlight:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I don’t think that’s an aerial leaf. It should be round. It might be ready to send one up soon. When it does, the submerged leaves should melt off so don’t worry.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> I don’t think that’s an aerial leaf. It should be round. It might be ready to send one up soon. When it does, the submerged leaves should melt off so don’t worry.


Same leaf this morning:









@dwalstad , what shape are your aerial leaves?


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## ronnie (Feb 26, 2021)

It could very well be an aerial leaf. I looked up the bulb type (white lily, nymphaea… I referenced from another thread) and the leaves look essentially the same.

It’s also still growing. The leaf will probably go through some shape adjustments, especially once it is emergent.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The submerged leaves are long triangles with deep notches at the base and undulating/ruffled. The emergent leaves are flat, bigger and rounder, which some small triangular ones. Attached are pictures of them in my 6 week-old tank that I've kept outside.

Never noticed this before!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The floating leaves are waxy as well so they don't lose moisture.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, here's a head scratcher. There is a new growth on my lily. It looks nothing like any leaf that has come before it. It is almost _totally _stem and is of a different thickness from all the other stems. It has pretty much doubled in length over the space of the last 24 hrs and is easily 9 in. long and snaking along the surface:








What do you think? An aerial leaf or the much anticipated flower in development?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

That could be a floating leaf. It'll unfurl at the surface.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

mistergreen said:


> That could be a floating leaf. It'll unfurl at the surface.


Yes. Floating leaves remain tightly furled until they hit the surface. It does not look like a flower bud, but floating leaves are usually necessary for flowers.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Feel free to critique what I did yesterday. I decided the little guy needed some more head room. The base of the plant was literally six inches below the surface and all the literature supported my belief that moving it to a deeper part of "the pond" was recommended. However, my choices on how to accomplish that were limited to 1) adding more water to the bowl or, 2) lowering the plant itself.

A few weeks ago, adding more water would have been my go-to solution. More water volume covers a multitude of sins. But, now that I have a few umbrella plants, it would have meant raising _their _container higher so as not to water log them (and I kinda like the height where they are now.)

So, get ready. 

I removed the lily from its pot. It's now resting on the bottom of the tank on top of the mulm along with its friend the anubias. About ten inches of water.

There were surprisingly few roots; evidently it is still subsisting off nutrients inside its rhizome. And btw, judging from the smell, the soil inside the pot was completely anaerobic. 

The lily's reaction so far has been to grow the new aerial leaf even faster. It's easily a foot long and showing no signs of slowing down. My real question is what to do with the old soil. Can it be saved? What happens to all the HS2 now that it has been exposed to the air?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

In the presence of oxygen, H2S is oxidized by various bacteria to harmless sulfates (my book, pp. 67 and 153).


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> In the presence of oxygen, H2S is oxidized by various bacteria to harmless sulfates (my book, pp. 67 and 153).


Okay, that's it. I'm buying my own copy of EPA. I think I can understand it better now that I've gotten my own hands dirty these past six months!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Best idea!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

So, is it worth bringing back a bag of red clay the next time I am in North Carolina? I think my big mistake was in using organic potting soil for my lily and becoming too focused on filling the pot. The gravel alone probably comprised about two inches - one on the bottom and another on the top! Would a handful of red clay in the middle have been better or would I still have had to worry about iron leeching out into bowl?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Clay alone doesn’t offer any benefit for plants.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Clay alone doesn’t offer any benefit for plants.


Clay + root tabs?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your beautiful bowl has clear water, fish okay, plants growing, etc). The lily is now starting to send up aerial leaves. That will help spur growth as it will now be able to bring oxygen into its soil substrate. Are you sure you want to mess with success? Instead, you could set up a small tank or bowl to tinker with new ideas, buy another lily, and play around with NC clay.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Your beautiful bowl has clear water, fish okay, plants growing, etc). The lily is now starting to send up aerial leaves. That will help spur growth as it will now be able to bring oxygen into its soil substrate. Are you sure you want to mess with success? Instead, you could set up a small tank or bowl to tinker with new ideas, buy another lily, and play around with NC clay.











That IS the problem with reading your book: it does make you want to try out new things, and I suppose that means, start new tanks (eventually.)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Instead, you could set up a small tank or bowl to tinker with new ideas, buy another lily, and play around with NC clay.


I dunno. I just couldn't keep the vision of @dwalstad 's beautiful summer tubs out of my head, so I followed your advice and set up a separate tank for my red clay experiment.

The tank is one-half of an old vegetable crisper from one or two refrigerators ago (don't judge me - I come from a long line of _hoarders_.)









The dirt is from my family's farm in southside Virginia (the land has been fallow for about forty years, so agricultural fertilizer shouldn't be a problem) I did add a API root tab for good measure which will be interesting because it says on the front of the package that the tabs contain _iron _(I mean, does that dirt look like it needs any more iron?):










The real tale is what a difference it makes when you wait until outdoor pond season is in full swing to purchase your plants. For half what it cost me to buy a rhizome boxed in peat moss three months ago, I was able to buy what surely looked like a red tiger lotus that was already sprouting leaves:











Essentially, I just repeated what I did with the rhizome many months ago. One big difference I used old bio-filter cylinders to line the bottom o the pot:

















That's not much more than a half inch of gravel as a cap.











Kind of surprised by how clear the water looks.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oops. Change of plans:









What had happened was...

I began thinking it was nuts not to take advantage of the supply of pond plants now available at this time of year, so I went back to Delancey Street with the intention of purchasing another red lotus. Over the space of a day or so, it began to dawn on me that I was sold the dwarf variety. It wasn't what I wanted but rather than make a big stink about it, I decided to scale down my red clay experiment. That's a re-used K-cup with about two table spoons of dirt capped by a couple of small stones. It's tank mate is part of my latest purchase.

When I got to Delancey Street, I decided to avoid the sales help and just look around for myself. No sooner did I pass half-way through the store than my eye immediately caught sight of a tank full of tangled vines and sizable root balls. It was a 55 gallon tank devoted to baby oscars but stuffed with aerial leaves of all sorts, including several banana plants.

I asked if any of the plants were for sale and the clerk actually had to check to make sure. He came back after a short time and quoted a price for these mature, strongly rooted plants that was equal to what I had paid for a newly sprouted bulb only three days before!

I greedily picked the biggest one and promptly brought it home whereupon it became obvious that it was too big for my nano tank. It was a tangle of aerial and emergent leaves and a few that I couldn't categorize. But, I am pretty sure that it is what is commonly referred to as a _green_ tiger lotus or sometimes as, _nymphaea maculata, _notable for its green serrated leaves, often spotted with purple splotches_._

Unlike my comparatively delicate, "hardy" lily, grown from a rhizome, this new plant was a mass of tough, thick stems and leaves. They did not wave back and forth in the water current like the lily and in the nano tank gave every impression of wanting to climb out of the tank, looking for prey. And, yet the sales clerk was kind enough to remind me that it was still attached to its bulb. And, that the bulb could easily be detached at this point in its life cycle - and, be re-used!

So, I kicked the dwarf red lotus out of the clay pot and replaced it with the newcomer.

In the process of replanting, a lot of the NC clay got flushed out. I doubt there's more than a half-cupful left, mostly mixed with a lot of gravel. I also pushed in another root tab since the first one was impossible to locate. Then, let it sit in the nano tank for a day just to observe what happened.

What i discovered was that, much like its domestic cousin, the hardy lily, the green tiger lotus is remarkably phototropic. As the day wore on (including, a four hour _siesta_), the leaves slowly began to untangle themselves. I've never seen a plant with so many different kinds: green and purple ones on a short stem; round, waxen ones that floated on tender strings, round, waxen ones that wanted to emerge from the water. One sizable leaf completely unfolded over the space of about eight hours!

By this morning, it seemed like a different plant; bushier, but clearly in need of more head-room. I measured the PH in the nano tank and at 7.2, it didn't seem terribly acidic._ And, yes, I did re-read p.132 in EPA regarding @dwalstad 's experience with laterite._

Nevertheless, I decided to go ahead and place the clay pot in the main tank with my other plants and livestock:
_







_
That's a lot of aerial leaves!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I found this floating in the main bowl:









It's clearly one of the lotuses, but I'm not sure which one. I had not realized a rooted stem could detach itself from the bulb so early in its development. But, who knows? This species seems to present surprises every day. So, in with the red clay it went:
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Oh, and I did remember to stuff a root tab underneath the clay as the new plant would need nutrients without its bulb.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The new little one looks like a different plant species to me. The leaves have deep indentations.
Your clay soil has big chunks and clumps. Hopefully, those chunks will disintegrate once submerged. However, if I were planting I would smash the clumps with a hammer or brick before planting anything in it. You can also push the soil beforehand through a mesh beforehand to get rid of clumps.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> The new little one looks like a different plant species to me. The leaves have deep indentations.
> Your clay soil has big chunks and clumps. Hopefully, those chunks will disintegrate once submerged. However, if I were planting I would smash the clumps with a hammer or brick before planting anything in it. You can also push the soil beforehand through a mesh beforehand to get rid of clumps.


That's interesting. The redness of the leaves immediately made me think "red tiger". We shall see. Yes, immersion in water does seem to disintegrate the clumps; I discovered that when I replanted the second lotus; the clay had turned to pure mud within days.

But, I have another question for you. Do you think I have to keep that rescue bulb under water from now on? Is there no way of "storing" it indefinitely? EDIT: maybe, that peat moss I've been hoarding?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

johnwesley0 said:


> That's interesting. The redness of the leaves immediately made me think "red tiger". We shall see. Yes, immersion in water does seem to disintegrate the clumps; I discovered that when I replanted the second lotus; the clay had turned to pure mud within days.
> 
> But, I have another question for you. Do you think I have to keep that rescue bulb under water from now on? Is there no way of "storing" it indefinitely? EDIT: maybe, that peat moss I've been hoarding?


Good to hear that the clay chunks disintegrated!

As to what to do with rescue bulb, I think you have to keep it planted in regular soil. I'm not sure that you have to keep the pot underwater. You could try growing it emergent.

I would not put the plantlet in peat moss. Peat moss would work for temporarily storing a bulb, but your little fellow has already sprouted. Thus, it does not have the food reserves necessary for storage of more than a few days.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> You could try growing it emergent.


GENIUS!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> GENIUS!


Not sure whether to bury it all the way. Not really trying to grow it so much as keeping it "dormant" until possibly next year:

















Keeping it covered for now. But, it does beg the question whether and how often to water it?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

If it's aquatic, the soil needs to be wet all the time.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> If it's aquatic, the soil needs to be wet all the time.


Great! Just gave it a good soaking. In fact, it just occurred to me that this is not so different than dry starting an aquatic plant?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

johnwesley0 said:


> not so different than dry starting an aquatic plant?


yup, pretty much.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Thought a picture might be in order:









The red tiger lotus has really taken off, making it hard to believe that this is the _dwarf _ version. Was hoping to see aerial leaves by now. Maybe a little red lighting is in order?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looks great!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

So... I left town for almost a week and this is what I found when I came back:









A better look:









This was a welcome and totally unexpected development. All along I kept second-guessing myself about the soil, the lighting and even the lonely pond snail that had managed to piggy-back its way with this plant's purchase. The latter didn't seem to be doing any harm to the plants and confined itself to skimming the surface slime in long lazy circles.

Anyway, the aerial leaves arriving in record time (compared to my first little lily) signaled it was time to move the lotus into deeper water. And, the snail soon followed.

So much has changed in the big bowl since last February, I have many more emergent plants and the water has grown almost permanently tannic from all the potted dirt. The red tiger lotus literally disappeared from sight as I eased it into the bowl, only its single (soon to be joined by another) lily pad signifying its location:









TBH, I'm a little disappointed that the red tiger lotus' pad is not actually _red _and only confirms in my mind the narrow taxonomy between it and the _green_ tiger lotus. But, my nanotank has proven itself a useful experimental station for propagating plants before they go into the main tank.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I found same color difference with mine- green lily pads and red submersed leaves.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> yup, pretty much.


Well, it's been almost a month and I thought a picture might be in order:









My rescue bulb remains firm and that bit of growth seems to indicate that it is still alive. No roots, but so far, it seems to be mimicking the behavior of a terrestrial bulb. The only difference is that I have to keep it wet?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I would raise the water level to the bulb.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I have Lotus plants from same source in two tanks. The submerged leaves have quite a different color. One has more green leaves than the other. Not sure why, because lighting and soil are the same. 

I really like this plant! I want to start propagating it and adding it to more tanks.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I love my lotuses! My poor hardy lily, my "first-born" might as well have been packed off to boarding school compared to her two rambunctious tiger siblings. The lotuses are constantly sending up new pads and it's really hard to tell (because I only see them from the top down) which ones belong to which plant. But, you're right; both of them seem perfectly capable of sending out fundamentally different colored pads: solid green pads as well as pads that are olive colored with definite red speckles. The contrast from a bird-eye view is quite pleasing.

And, my "dry" soil experiment seems to be coming along; the rescue bulb is still alive after six weeks. I think if I had another bowl, I would have planted it by now. I would imagine the trick propagating a lotus would be knowing what's going on underneath the substrate and at what point the parent plant is completely independent of the bulb?

OTOH, the more delicate hardy lily is grown from a rhizome; very similar to the _anubias_..


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Johnwesley's posts have inspired me to propagate my own Red Tiger Lotuses. I divided up the plantlets from one of the bulbs that sprouted in my summer tank. There were 6-7 plantlets with delicate roots--no longer than 2"-- that I divided into three of my new pots. (The clay sides are semi-porous and allow some gas exchange.) Attached is photo of one pot with a baby. I hope it does well!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Johnwesley's posts have inspired me to propagate my own Red Tiger Lotuses. I divided up the plantlets from one of the bulbs that sprouted in my summer tank. There were 6-7 plantlets with delicate roots--no longer than 2"-- that I divided into three of my new pots. (The clay sides are semi-porous and allow some gas exchange.) Attached is photo of one pot with a baby. I hope it does well!


Well, it's been two months since I put my rescue bulb in "dry" storage and my wet thumb is getting itchy, too. So, I've decided I have room for one more k-cup on the bottom of my porcelain bowl. I've also removed most of my floaters with a slight uptick in ammonia (0.25ppm) a possible result (@spaquarista may also have a point about bladder snails representing a whole other level of bio-load.)

Anyway, I'm hoping another aggressive tiger lotus will make up for the loss of _salvinia minima._
I'm using the same southside Virginia clay capped with gravel that I used for the dwarf red tiger. Only this time, I'm throwing it right into the bottom of the main bowl:

























UPDATE: When I tried to lift out my first k-cup (which you can see just underneath the new bulb), I was met with a lot of resistance. In fact, I could see the substrate in the immediate area heave every time I gave the cup a gentle tug. So, apparently, there is an entire root system that has emerged from the bottom of the first k-cup. This explains why the dwarf red tiger lily is thriving so well! The rich mulm at the bottom of my bowl seems to suit it. It was also a timely reminder to make sure the new k-cup had holes punched on the bottom of it - which I did just this moment.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

As it happens, in my focus on replanting my rescue bulb, I quite forgot that I had another rescue bulb sitting right under my nose. It's the one from my dwarf red tiger lotus which got its own k-cup treatment two months ago. And, TBH, I'm not sure why it was sold as a dwarf plant. It's pads are easily as big and as long as it's supposedly bigger bowl mate sitting in the big clay pot inches away.

So, I figured it was time to separate it from its bulb which I could observe had migrated to its side. Since the k-cup was firmly rooted to the bottom of the bowl, I had to reach in with both hands, using one to steady the cup and the other to gently wriggle the bulb off. I was pleasantly surprised that it was a clean snap with no one the worse for wear:









You can see the space it left in the older k-cup:









And right into the "dry" start pot it went:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Another birth in progress! Your porcelain bowl will soon be filled with these lilies.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

From what I can remember, putting the lilies in damp soil is a way to put them into dormancy like imitating the dry season. It should be covered in water to promote growth.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

So...I was moving one of my larger "pots" around for a root tab refresher when I discovered this underneath it:









Believe it or not, that is all coming from the little k-cup that until a couple days ago contained the bulb from which my dwarf red tiger lotus grew. It's literally as big as the plant itself.

I didn't know what to do with it. Sitting a potted plant directly on top of it didn't seem like a good idea. So, I aquascaped some gravel over it:









I probably buried some bladder snails in the process (Sorry fellas.) But, I'm thinking that root system is strong enough to keep things pretty aerated down there. Don't you think?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Another birth in progress! Your porcelain bowl will soon be filled with these lilies.


I've thought about this and a number of things make lilies very appealing. First and foremost is the Aerial Advantage they have over ordinary submerged plants. It takes the whole problem of whether and how to supply CO2 to one's plants off the table. They get it directly from the air. 

Secondly, their metamorphosis is fascinating. In my case, if I throw a lotus or lily bulb into the bottom of my bowl, they will spend months in a kind of protracted "juvenile" stage during which their submerged leaves will grow in circumference and length, making them very attractive centerpiece plants.

Then all of a sudden, there is the appearance of these alien-like shoots that slowly find their way to the surface and turn into entirely different leaves. Pretty soon it's a different plant.

Ironically (and I'd love your opinion on this), they wouldn't be my first choice for getting a Walstad tank off the ground. It takes time for them to develop extensive root systems, so I wouldn't categorize them as "fast growers" in the conventional sense. But, boy! Once they do, there's no stopping them. I have only the thinnest imaginable substrate of mulm and gravel and they seem to love it. 

I've noticed a lot of pin-holes in their leaves, especially in the lotuses. But, a recent discussion of the problem on this forum led me to my local health food store for the solution: one crushed potassium pill seems to have done the trick.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

johnwesley0 said:


> I've thought about this and a number of things make lilies very appealing. First and foremost is the Aerial Advantage they have over ordinary submerged plants. It takes the whole problem of whether and how to supply CO2 to one's plants off the table. They get it directly from the air.
> 
> Ironically (and I'd love your opinion on this), they wouldn't be my first choice for getting a Walstad tank off the ground. It takes time for them to develop extensive root systems, so I wouldn't categorize them as "fast growers" in the conventional sense.


Excellent idea that I have been thinking about... 

I would hesitate to recommend Red Tiger Lotus for NPT beginners. For you with a porcelain bowl with its top view, they have an attraction. But in my shallow tanks, I have found them a mixed blessing. 

The lily pads block light for other plants but really don't contribute much to water purification. In contrast, Frogbit and Water Lettuce decrease light and oxygen exchange at water surface, but they are also efficient water purifiers. Their extensive root systems in the water take up ammonia and produce oxygen efficiently. 

Today, I found old 2017 pictures of Frogbit taken in morning (8:00 AM) with no gas bubbles and again at 5:00 PM. Those gas bubbles attached to roots are almost surely the waste product of photosynthesis--oxygen. 

Robust floating plants like Frogbit and Water Lettuce give you a lot of "bang for your buck." This may explain why my 9 tanks currently have almost no algae, ammonia, nitrates, and nitrite despite heavy fish feeding, no filters, infrequent water changes, and good lighting on 13 hours per day. I have to prune and thin out these floaters once every week or so. 

Last picture shows Water Lettuce with an extensive root system in a current tank.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Robust floating plants like Frogbit and Water Lettuce give you a lot of "bang for your buck." This may explain why my 9 tanks currently have almost no algae, ammonia, nitrates, and nitrite despite heavy fish feeding, no filters, infrequent water changes, and good lighting on 13 hours per day. I have to prune and thin out these floaters once every week or so.


I've had the same experience with my floaters and it begs the (slightly off-topic) question: could you successfully run a NPT with *only *floating plants, and no dirt substrate/rooted plants? Or maybe another way of putting it - for someone who has a "traditional" tank with gravel and limited or no live plants, could they achieve some sort of NPT progress w/o redoing their substrate, just by adding floating plants? Or do the floaters not do enough on their own?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> I've had the same experience with my floaters and it begs the (slightly off-topic) question: could you successfully run a NPT with *only *floating plants, and no dirt substrate/rooted plants? Or maybe another way of putting it - for someone who has a "traditional" tank with gravel and limited or no live plants, could they achieve some sort of NPT progress w/o redoing their substrate, just by adding floating plants? Or do the floaters not do enough on their own?


My floaters have been a great educational experience. It's amazing how they seem to adjust size, shape and fertility according to their population. Ever since I scooped most of the _salvinia_ out of my tank the ones that remain have simply stopped multiplying, or perhaps have slowed down considerably, to the point where each plant is simply twice the size of the ones I scooped out. And, now they have these long feathery roots which they never had before. My theory is they are consuming just as much nutrient now as when they formed a virtual carpet of half-inch plants across the top of my porcelain bowl.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

jatcar95 said:


> I've had the same experience with my floaters and it begs the (slightly off-topic) question: could you successfully run a NPT with *only *floating plants, and no dirt substrate/rooted plants? Or maybe another way of putting it - for someone who has a "traditional" tank with gravel and limited or no live plants, could they achieve some sort of NPT progress w/o redoing their substrate, just by adding floating plants? Or do the floaters not do enough on their own?


Healthy floating plants will always help control ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Getting them to grow is the challenge. Need good lighting, a calm water surface, and in some situations, iron fertilization (addition of chelated iron to water).

I think you just have to try it out to see if it works in your setup.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> The lily pads block light for other plants but really don't contribute much to water purification. In contrast, Frogbit and Water Lettuce decrease light and oxygen exchange at water surface, but they are also efficient water purifiers. Their extensive root systems in the water take up ammonia and produce oxygen efficiently.


I'm guessing that neither floaters (Frogbit, water lettuce, etc.) nor lilies contribute much CO2 to the water column during respiration periods, i.e., when the lights are off. Is that correct?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

johnwesley0 said:


> I'm guessing that neither floaters (Frogbit, water lettuce, etc.) nor lilies contribute much CO2 to the water column during respiration periods, i.e., when the lights are off. Is that correct?


I believe you are correct. I sincerely doubt that plant respiration contributes much CO2 to the water column. Decomposition is the primary CO2 source.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Here's a question I never thought I'd have to ask: My youngest lotus has sent out its first pads and is now firmly anchored to the bottom of the aquarium by a massive root system. What to do now with its bulb? This is the second plant (that I know of) germinated by this bulb. Worth keeping for a possible third try, or is there a limit to how often they can be recycled?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Here's a question I never thought I'd have to ask: My youngest lotus has sent out its first pads and is now firmly anchored to the bottom of the aquarium by a massive root system. What to do now with its bulb? This is the second plant (that I know of) germinated by this bulb. Worth keeping for a possible third try, or is there a limit to how often they can be recycled?
> View attachment 74136


So, two months later I guess I have the answer. This bulb has sprouted for the third time (that I know of.) The only problem is that it shall have to wait for another tank to spread out in!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

nice


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

My hardy lily sent out its first emergent leaf in months. It's in a new home and I've never seen it look so luxuriant:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I notice that whenever I cut one of the emergent red tiger lotus pad stems (in order to encourage growth of the submerged leaves) that a fair amount of air is released, almost like it was a tiny rubber tube. Is that O2 or CO2 that is being released?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

That’s O2.


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## SamOfChaos (10 mo ago)

I just realized I did the exact opposite of you guys.

I took an outside nymphea and put it in my inside Tanks 

While cleaning up the little outside pond I found the little nymphea had spread considerably. There where now the original pott and two big plants. One of these was intertwined in the big mass of juncus and iris.
I cut that out and put it in a bucket after a week or so I finally got around to plant it.

Problem the rhizome was so big I could not put that in one tank. More then 20cm of 3cm thick nymphea. Luckily it had 3 points of growing leaves so I cut it in 3 Parts. I hope they all live. They are growing like mad.


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## ericrobertswilliam (9 mo ago)

hello


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

This morning I noticed something interesting about my "hardy lily". This was my first post-Walstad purchase, a little over a year ago:









It took me a while to realize that lilies were different from lotuses and that the genus _nymphaea _included aquatic plants that grew from rhizomes as well as from bulbs as well as something called _corms._ In any event, I didn't think they could cross-over very easily. But, here's a picture of my lily taken this morning:









Just to let you get your bearings here, that's a nice fat lily pad at the lower part of the screen. Just above that is a normal, pea-green, lily submersed leaf.

But, right there at the center of the picture are three submersed leaves that have the distinctive markings of a red-tiger lotus. They seem to be growing from the same plant. Full disclosure: There is a red tiger lotus about five inches away and separated by a plastic divider. Either explanation, that the lily is changing leaf color at this late stage or that the lotus is sending out a "runner" underneath the plastic divider would be fairly unusual, would they not?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I think I can answer my own question now. Apparently, the red tiger lotus is capable of sending out runners (!!!)
I discovered another plant this morning. And, just like the other one next to my hardy lily, it is about four inches from the parent plant. The only reason I am surprised by this is because the parent was grown from a bulb, not a rhizome. Obviously, I don't know much about plants. Here's a snapshot (apologies in advance for all the algae on the tank glass):


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## SamOfChaos (10 mo ago)

The Season is open!

First tub planted with an yellow nymphea and a few plants in an planter with soil.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

SamOfChaos said:


> The Season is open!
> 
> First tub planted with an yellow nymphea and a few plants in an planter with soil.


 What's a houseplant chair?


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## SamOfChaos (10 mo ago)

I am confused, what do you mean?

The Strandkorb?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I looked up Strandkorb on the internet and yes, that would seem to be it. There's a _strandkorb _in one of your snapshots which the photo credit refers to as a "houseplant chair". I'm thinking it is the English translation for this:

"A Strandkorb (from German, lit. meaning: 'beach basket'; Danish: strandkurv; English: 'hooded beach chair') is a special hooded windbreak seating furniture used at vacation and seaside resorts, constructed from wicker, wood panels and canvas, usually seating up to two people, with reclining backrests. It was designed to provide comfort seating and shelter from wind, rain, sand gusts..."


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## SamOfChaos (10 mo ago)

Exactly! Since I have a bit of a disability I can't use the garden very well so we made this little corner in our driveway for me. Its the Strandkorb, a little table that I can get out of the garage and plants around it.

My Mom and me often sit there in the evenings.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

johnwesley0 said:


> There's a _strandkorb _in one of your snapshots which the photo credit refers to as a "houseplant chair".


The forum uses some sort of object detection to label images you upload. It's just a list of things it thinks are in the picture. So a houseplant, and a chair. It's not done manually by any user. It does this to all images including your own if you click on them. Kinda neat, although doesn't always work out perfectly!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I took a shot at digging up that suspected new red tiger lotus in my _apisto_ breeder tank and lo, it is not growing from the hardy lily next to it, but was indeed growing from a runner attached to the lotus clear on the other side of a plastic divider:









Another neat thing is that it apparently is growing another bulb! I replanted it on the far side of the tank so that sometime soon I will have balancing lotuses on each side of the breeder tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

So, in refreshing my memory of what Diana has written about organic matter decomposition and the supply of CO2 in the aquarium, I came across this footnote on page 88 of EPA:

"11. Plants in ponds would be less likely to be carbon-limited, because they have carbon inputs in addition to fishfood, water, and soil. For example, bugs, tree leaves, etc falling into ponds bring in organic carbon. *Furthermore, ponds usually contain water lilies and other emergent plants. These plants bring carbon from the air into the pond. They use air CO2 for photosynthesis (p.144) and when parts of these plants decompose, the carbon that originated from the air is released into the water as CO2 that the plants can use." *

So, don't throw those clippings away!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

johnwesley0 said:


> I took a shot at digging up that suspected new red tiger lotus in my _apisto_ breeder tank and lo, it is not growing from the hardy lily next to it, but was indeed growing from a runner attached to the lotus clear on the other side of a plastic divider:
> Another neat thing is that it apparently is growing another bulb! I replanted it on the far side of the tank so that sometime soon I will have balancing lotuses on each side of the breeder tank.


The muscle and "reach" of your Tiger Lotuses is amazing!


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

Michael said:


> I have two seedlings of the native _Nelumbo lutea_ that are growing big enough to go into a friend's large pond. They are tricky, wish me luck.


My dream is to grow American lotus. So many attempts have failed!!! I think flooding and allelochemicals. It even grows wild here in my county, Palm Beach County! 😭 I hope to succeed soon, I’m learning so much.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Mine didn't make it. I think the water temperature was too high. We had a terrible summer here.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

Michael said:


> Mine didn't make it. I think the water temperature was too high. We had a terrible summer here.


But that’s what I keep hearing! The temp MUST be high for lotus! It’s so delicate. I’ve grown it better on the banks of a pond but the moment the water had risen it died! I’m going to try to grow American lotus in a big oversized pot on my patio.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm letting my _nymphaea _grow out their emergent leaves under the theory that the fewer plants in my 8-month-old 30 gallon dirted tank using up precious CO2, the better:








The results are interesting:

On the one hand, my hardy lily has responded with new submersed leaf growth after a few months of being on the wane:









OTOH, my red tiger lotus is starting to give up its broad, signature submersed leaves, seemingly unable to support both ways of producing oxygen:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

...Meanwhile, I'm doing just the opposite with the tiger lotus in my porcelain bowl. Ms. Walstad suggested I needed more oxygenating plants (TBH, the porcelain bowl was never much of a Walstad tank - it started with a gravel substrate and a few months later, I added a pot of dirt.)

My hypothesis was that by cutting the lotus' emergent leaves, photosynthesis through its submersed leaves would be encouraged. Here's where I started ten weeks ago:









Here's where we are now after removing all the emergent leaves:


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> ...Meanwhile, I'm doing just the opposite with the tiger lotus in my porcelain bowl. Ms. Walstad suggested I needed more oxygenating plants (TBH, the porcelain bowl was never much of a Walstad tank - it started with a gravel substrate and a few months later, I added a pot of dirt.)
> 
> My hypothesis was that by cutting the lotus' emergent leaves, photosynthesis through its submersed leaves would be encouraged. Here's where I started ten weeks ago:
> View attachment 75570
> ...


What kind of snails you got? 🤔


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

FernKing said:


> What kind of snails you got? 🤔


Just bladder snails. I think I would have more were it not for the presence of an older male _apisto_ that subsists on their eggs. (I've had mystery snails in the past, but we never got along.)


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Just bladder snails. I think I would have more were it not for the presence of an older male _apisto_ that subsists on their eggs. (I've had mystery snails in the past, but we never got along.)


Bladder snails should be breeding like crazy. If you don’t have dozens you might be right about the eggs. A nerite is much larger and could be consuming that algae too. Some people even add a freshwater fiddler crab to clean up.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

My only problem with relying on the red tiger lotus as an oxygenator is that its growth is pretty slow. Yesterday was the first time it even dawned on me that it had actually grown since I last took a snapshot of the tank. In that sense, it's really like an _anubias; _the slow-growing leaves can be a real algae magnet.

Having conducted all that research, it may make better sense to transfer the entire pot to the _apisto_ tank where it will take up less space and I can plant more rapidly growing plants in its place.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> My only problem with relying on the red tiger lotus as an oxygenator is that its growth is pretty slow. Yesterday was the first time it even dawned on me that it had actually grown since I last took a snapshot of the tank. In that sense, it's really like an _anubias; _the slow-growing leaves can be a real algae magnet.
> 
> Having conducted all that research, it may make better sense to transfer the entire pot to the _apisto_ tank where it will take up less space and I can plant more rapidly growing plants in its place.


I just treat algae as “uneaten food”. So far none of my tanks have algae because I have ostrocods and snails eating all of it and frogbit starving the rest.


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