# Die off...



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I just got 10 shrimp on Friday and by Saturday morning they were all dead. GRRRRRR!!!

I haven't used any dry trace mix, only Flourish or Red Sea Flora24 (Dupla Drops). I know it's not a problem with my dry trace mix now. I hadn't done a water change in a week nor added water in at least three days beforehand so the water was well aged. I thought I saw somewhere that Amanos are sensitive to calcium levels. Do any of you have experiences with this?

What about pH? My tank stays in the 6.0-6.2 range pretty consistently depending on light cycle. KH is in the 1-1.5 range depending on the test kit.

I'm getting really sick of losing shrimp. Can anyone advise?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Perhaps you tap water has trace copper or something else they are sensitive to?


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## XRTech (Jul 15, 2007)

Maybe do a water test on your tank as well as the water the shrimp come in. See how big of a difference there is. Might need to acclimate them slower. Maybe your water already has copper in it. When I got my Amanos they shed that night and I didn't see them for a week. I thought they died at first (seeing all of the empty husks), then they all came out later that week. That's all I can think of to help. Sorry about the deaths...that is frustrating.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Copper from my pipes is the first thing I thought of. Strangely, I was able to keep them alive for a while in my apartment five years ago. They slowly died off in my old house and now this, overnight wipe out. It's been in the same city and the place I thought most likely to have copper would have been my old house, being 45 years old I could have sworn on copper in the plumbing. This house was built in the late 90s and I've only seen PVC plumbing. Time to test the tap for Cu. 

As for acclimation, I'm sure my water parameters are quite different than the store's. It's a super high light/high growth tank with all the chemical adjustments we could expect from such an aquarium. I let them acclimate for a good 45 minutes, do you think that's still not enough time? 

I'm smart enough to admit to being a total nooblet when it comes to inverts. The research I've done on Amanos tended to cite a pH of 6.4-7, would pH hovering around 6 be too low for them? 

Thanks!
Phil


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## Adragontattoo (Jun 3, 2007)

What else is in the tank? (inhabitants)
What is the substrate?


There has to be something in your water that they cant stand unless..

Have you ever had to add copper to the tank to combat any diseases? 
Look at the food, does it have copper in it?

I know that Cherries (and all shrimp AFAIK) are highly sensitive to Nitrate and Ammonia. Is it possible that they ammonia/nitrate levels are too high for them?

How are you acclimating the shrimp?


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## XRTech (Jul 15, 2007)

It's possible you might need to take longer to acclimate them if the water parameters are that different. Once you find out that your tank water is within safe limits and doesn't have Cu, I would get a test shrimp and take a much longer time acclimating it to see how it does. I've heard of some people using a drip method that takes much longer.


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## Purrbox (Jun 1, 2006)

You should be able to get a copy of a water report for your city which would have the copper levels.

I always use the drip method to acclimate new shrimp and it always works beautifully.


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## Adragontattoo (Jun 3, 2007)

Purrbox said:


> You should be able to get a copy of a water report for your city which would have the copper levels.
> 
> I always use the drip method to acclimate new shrimp and it always works beautifully.


I use the drip method to acclimate everything but plants and have yet to have an issue.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

Phil,

When acclimating shrimp do it slowly using the drip method or something similar. I open the bags, put them in a container, discard half of the water they cam in and let it float in the tank I am putting them in. I grab a small syringe I have and start putting water from then tank slowly until the container is full. This can take usually more than an hour. I just put some water from the tank every 15 minutes.


There might be something toxic in your tank but it is really hard to say. There is information about copper being toxic to shrimp but I am not sure at what levels.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

What else is in the tank? (inhabitants)
- 5 Pseudomugil gertrudae, 3 Ottos, some tiny pond snails, and a couple MTS

For some reason I can't keep MTS very long either but all other snail types do really well.

What is the substrate?
-Flourite

Have you ever had to add copper to the tank to combat any diseases? 
-Not to my knowledge. I prefer not to medicate my display tanks just for this reason. If I have to medicate I try to use a quarantine tank.

-Water quality report states 0ppm copper.
http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyre...vwilqgdxrfbdhjdquzlpbz5m3d/06CMU.WQRfinal.pdf

Look at the food, does it have copper in it?
-Again not to my knowledge. I'm feeding Ocean Nutrition Goldfish formula as well as ON Prime Reef and SW herbivore flake mix on occasion. Since there are only 5 tiny-mouthed fish I feed a tiny pinch crushed finely once or twice a day.

-Staple food: http://oceannutrition.com/product_fresh.php?file=ab04.html&head=24

I know that Cherries (and all shrimp AFAIK) are highly sensitive to Nitrate and Ammonia. Is it possible that they ammonia/nitrate levels are too high for them?
-I'm going on the old stand-by EI system and am adding 1/4tsp KNO3 3x/week which would give me approx 35-40ppm NO3 on the last day before water change (I fertilize the day before). However, I hadn't fertilized that day in anticipation of getting the shrimp so it had been 2.75 days since last supplimentation.

How are you acclimating the shrimp?
-I let the bag float for 10 min to acclimatize to temp, opened the bag and started pouring in little bits of tank water every 5 min or so for 30 min. I then poured the contents into a net and dumped the shrimp into the tank. I made sure to have a handfull of moss in the bag with them to avoid undue stress during transport.

Thank you all for your help on this. It's looking like I need to start mastering the art of shrimp husbandry.

Regards,
Phil


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## Adragontattoo (Jun 3, 2007)

well 35-40ppm nitrate is DEFINETELY an issue for the shrimp and maybe for the snails as well. 

What I do for all fish and shrimp is get a 5g bucket that I have for quarantine/water changes (gets peroxide + bleach and then multiple rinses prior to use. I hook up a gang valve for air tubing and hook air tubing up to either side.

One side in the tank, other side in the bucket on the floor. I then create a suction and drip acclimatize the new inhabitant to the tank, after 30+ mins of drip, I pull out half the water and run another 15 minutes with a steadier stream. 

Net the new inhabitant out of the bucket, top off the bit of water that was removed with new water and place the inhabitant in the tank.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I'll give that a go next time I have the courage and money to get more shrimp.

On the 30-40ppm NO3 it's all I can assume the maximum levels would be under the assumption that the plants aren't using up all of the given fertilizer. Unfortunately, even though I work in a water quality lab I can't run tests on my water myself.  The equipment and lab tech for grant use only. I'm not sure the tech's husband wants grant using her, but those are the rules. 

Thanks!

Update: According to the Fertilator I would have 20-25ppm NO3 by the end of the week if only half of what I put in are used up. 1/2 tsp with water change and 1/4 2x/week


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

"well 35-40ppm nitrate is DEFINETELY an issue for the shrimp and maybe for the snails as well"

Rubbish. I tried 200ppm Nitrate for 3 weeks as a test and didn't lose any of two dozen shrimp in that tank. I added Potassium Nitrate to get that level.

Copper, or iron will not kill them outright except in doses high enough to kill your snails too. The modality of death in the presence of these metal ions manigests itself when they moult: if they moult and they die quiclky, suspect metal ions.

The only thing I know of that kills shrimp that quickly in the water is ammonia. If you can measure it, it's instantly toxic to shrimp. You need 0ppm ammonia. Even traces of the stuff will kill shrimp.

Now, if you have measurable nitrates and you aren't adding any that means it had to come from ammonia that was converted by good bacteria and that's your problem right there - ammonia.

The other thing it could be is a vast difference in hardness. You can transfer fish and shrimp from water of any pH to any other (reasonable, ie < 10 > 4) pH without ill effect.

And you can transfer fish and shrimp from soft water to hard water instantly with zero ill effect.

BUT! If you transfer fish from hard water to soft water without proper accilimtixation they will die nearly instantly from osmotic shock.

I'd measure hardness and ammonia in the water they came in and water they're going into/


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I also think that Ammonia is the most possible reason. Subtle spikes in the Ammonia that show up and disappear quickly. Can't test for them, can't really prove it either.

There's got to be a lot of other and unknown things that could cause shrimp death because I've seen it happen. But there is one pretty simple reason too - when growing emersed plants often fungus starts to develop due to the humid environment. It could be treated with Copper containing chemicals. Most of the anti-fungal hydroponic products contain Copper. So it is possible to put a new plant and introduce a good amount of Copper. But I do not know if Copper is such a big deal as we all think.

Overall, I'd say "Stupid shrimp!" and I'd buy new ones. Callous old me, haha.

--Nikolay


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks you two. I'll do a couple good water changes to clear out the decaying leaves and such to reduce possible ammonia as much as possible. I've got to get replacements from the store on Friday though or I won't get any so there are more coming whether the tank's fully ready or not. I'll just try a much longer acclimatization period.


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## mrjg (Apr 30, 2007)

phil: I just happened to see your post. I had a similar issue myself recently loosing 10 out of 12 of a shipment of CRS. Pretty much the same deal as me barring the nitrates (mine were <10ppm). I couldn't find any reason chemically wrong with the tank and the losses weren't all at the same time. Just one here one there and all in a week long period. I chalked it up to shipping stress and I'm trying again with a new batch now. We'll see how that goes.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

Decaying leaves? Heloooooo.

The only time I ever say ammonia kill off shrimp was when I got a LOT of emerse grown crypts. When they dropped these leaves to grow new submersed ones a dozen shrimp keeled over and I had SLIGHTLY measurable ammonia. I transferred the shrimp to clean water and half of them lived.


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## mph005 (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm in the same boat here. I got 12 cherry shrimp, 15 amano shrimp, plus a shipment of SAE's and other fish yesterday.

Took a standard approach of dripping water over about an hour. But as of this morning, all CRS's are dead, most SAE's and half of the amano shrimp. Quite an expensive and traumatic experience.

Other inhabitants in the tank have been doing well for a while (5 tetras, 1 golden algae eater, 1 skunk botia).

I would chalk the loss of the shrimp up to inexperience and shipping stress, but the loss of the SAE's and other fish are hard to take. 

Live and learn I guess. Probably wont be doing mail order fish or shrimp anytime in the future.

Local water report shows Copper at 0.6ppm, but that was from 2004. Haven't added anything other than Seachem's fertilizers (following their basic recommended dosage). 

I haven't tested for ammonia yet, but other parameters are good. Nitrates are like 2ppm, which was something I need to address for the plant health. Very well planted tank. But after reading here i'm suspecting ammonia.


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## Xema (Mar 24, 2004)

I am not sure if it would be your case. But when you are keeping shrimps in your home you need to take quite care about using home insecticides. Many people use to use this kind of stuff to kill flies, moskitos and so on... If only few micro-drops fall into your shrimp tank, you shrimp will get died in few minutes.


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## mph005 (Sep 27, 2007)

Actually, I think I found my answer last night. Ammonia, and lots of it.

I had this tank setup for a while, with plenty of plants and a handful of fish, so I was confident that the tank was ready for new critters. After I found most of my shrimp and some fish dead, I did a 50% water change immediately. When I got home from work later that day, there were no more deaths, but I tested for ammonia and got a high reading. I did another 75% water change right then and cleaned out the filter. 

But then I tested my tap water, and got the same high ammonia reading. That's where it was coming from. I doubled my dose of Seachem Prime to try and help eliminate some of the extra ammonia, and it did get down pretty low, but still detectable. However, I am aware that some of the conditioning products (like Prime) can mess with ammonia tests.

So as of right now all fish and shrimp are stable. I'm going to back off and let the filter do it's job and watch everything closely.

Any tips on dealing with tap water that has a high ammonia reading? I'm starting to begin the Estimative Index dosing scheme's, which calls for weekly 50% water changes, and right now I'm not looking forward to chasing high ammonia levels from my tap.


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