# From a hobbyist perspective, we need more technical info on ADA Aquasoil



## George H (Jul 15, 2006)

This is my first post here, after setting up a planted tank and having everything die and getting algae infested DESPITE high light and pressurized CO2, I finally got fed up and tore the whole tank down. I have a second tank with Flourite and only a few plants and they do OK but not spectacular.


After doing lots of reading here, I deceided to set up a new tank with ADA Aqua Soil.

If there is ONE product in all the "miracle" type products for planted aquariums, it's Aqua Soil. The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. It's two months old now, ZERO algae, and every plant is doing AWESOME. Last month, I even got some r. macrandra and e. stellatus, and even those are growing great without issue. These are plants that are usually spec'd as "extrememly difficult."

Two weeks ago I trimmed some of the e. stellatus. Instead of throwing the clippings away, I took a small glass jar and filled it with Aqua Soil. I put the stellatus in there and put that in my second (smaller) tank, the one with the flourite. Not only are they doing fine but they are putting up a LOT of new buds (probably around 8 - 12 at least).

As I said, I've read the forums a lot here, and so far, I don't see ANY investigation on the part of the hobbyists as to WHY ADA Aqua Soil works so good. In fact, I see the opposite... on another forum, the prevailing mindset is "Tom Barr proved plants prefer absorbing nutrients from the water using their leaves not the substrate using their roots." Um OK. Even here, most people seem content with just saying Aqua Soil is great.

I want to know WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

What is in ADA Aqua Soil?

What makes it stop algae growth?

Why do stem plants grow so well in it?

The way I look at it, it's ADA's right not to disclose their trade secrets and such. But that is no reason why we as hobbyists should not "reverse engineer" this product and find out what's in it. I think we have a right to find out the science behind what is going on here. Otherwise, we have to "pay a ransom" so to speak to ADA in order to have successful tanks. And it does a disservice to the name of science not to have the knowledge free, so we can theorize about what is going on in the planted tank with ADA Aquasoil.

I'm willing to send some Aquasoil to an independant lab, but I'm not sure where to start for that or what to ask for. Maybe someone can suggest one?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

What is going on is obvious. Your first try didn't involve adequately fertilizing the tank. But, since ADA AS contains fertilizers, your second try succeeded with the plants all being root fed. I understand that AS is a superior substrate, and I wouldn't dispute that, but your particular experience sure sounds like inadequate fertilizing before.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

yeah that's my first thought as well. What are you using as substrate in your first failed attempt? 

i am pretty sure you could obtained similar result with some of the other plant substrates such as eco complete.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

I thought he posted that he was using flourite. Doesnt that come with alot of nutrients as well?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

hoppycalif said:


> What is going on is obvious. Your first try didn't involve adequately fertilizing the tank. But, since ADA AS contains fertilizers, your second try succeeded with the plants all being root fed. I understand that AS is a superior substrate, and I wouldn't dispute that, but your particular experience sure sounds like inadequate fertilizing before.


I concur. It's my belief that when people see a difference, they weren't fertilizing enough or providing the best conditions in the first place. If you do, you can grow anything to its fullest potential in pretty much any substrate.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Except, Aqua Soil lowers the GH and the KH, so it has to have something in it that is actually pulling fertilizers from the water column and into the substrate bed.

I also see really big differences when using Flourish Tabs also on all plants, including stem plants.

Sorry but I have to agree with the original poster, substrate fertilizing makes a big difference. I for one am also interested in finding out what Aqua Soil is composed of.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I no longer bother with substrate fertilization of any kind because it never made a difference to me. I've found that I can more easily just heavily dose the water column (I add quite a bit). I've grown some of my best plants in plain gravel. In my experience, substrate fertilization is not important provided the plants get what they need another way. YMMV


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

chiahead said:


> I thought he posted that he was using flourite. Doesnt that come with alot of nutrients as well?


Actually it doesn't. As far as I understand, there are no artificially added nutrients in Flourite. I've had very good results with it but with consistent water column dosing.

ADA AS does have nutrients added.

I'd be very curious to know what George's fert regime was on the original tank; all that is mentioned is CO2 and lights.

And George, welcome to APC!


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## George H (Jul 15, 2006)

I WAS USING ECO COMPLETE THE FIRST TIME. I also fertilize with Tropica Master Grow and Florish Potassium and Iron.

I can't believe you people. There is just tons of blatant evidence that ADA Aqua Soil makes a huge difference, but no one wants to accept it.

Well fine then, I'll be investigating on my own then.

It's really funny how I didn't mention how I was fertilizing the tank the first time (I thought I did but I guess I didn't), yet everyone wants to instantly jump on me and assume that I "wasn't adequately fertilizing the tank".

I see tons of people shot down on all these forums, I really thought you guys were better than that. I guess not.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

I myself am a skeptic and I always question everything, even if it comes from "big names," so I hate to see new blood on the forums get easily flustered and chased away. 

What most people have posted is that they think you had fertilization deficiencies the first time which were "filled in" by Aqua Soil. However, this is only a guess at this point, because as the original poster says, ADA does not disclose _any_ information about what is in their Aqua Soil.

I'd love to know more about what's in it.

Independant lab test... hmmmm....


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

George H said:


> I WAS USING ECO COMPLETE THE FIRST TIME. I also fertilize with Tropica Master Grow and Florish Potassium and Iron.


What about nitrogen and phosphorus sources? Eco_Complete does not contain any macronutrients and only trace levels of minerals like Mg, Ca, CO3, etc. ADA Aquasoil has an N source, NH4. NH4 is easily and happily absorbed by plants and some will leak into the water column aswell. A tank deficient in an N source, be it NH4 in AS or dosed NO3 forms will quickly have growth, stutung and algae issues because nitrogen is on of the most important plant nutrients.

I think I have said this before but here is my take on ADA Aqua Soil.... It is a semi-fired clay probably in the smectite family. It has a high (-) charge meaning that it will readily bind with cations like NH4+ and Ca++, Mg++, K+, Fe+ and CO3+, lowering the Gh, kH and providing a substrate source of these nutrients. Along with this comes a theory I have that the reason ADA fertalizers stress K so heavily is that 1) the substrate removes most of the K+ from the water column where it is very important to stomata and osmotic regulation and 2) the extra K+ helps to bury the NH4 already in the substrate preventing excess leaching and and helping ensure a slow release of the N source.

The bottom line is that ADA does work well, and it does its job well. The real reason for its "superiority" is that it provides the plants with everything they need. This is great initially, and also wonderful for the beginner, as it provides success and room for error. One can grow plants in anything but I agree, by all accounts ADA soil is really nice. Its not majic though, but it is nie adn convient.

As for expense, the ADA AquaSoil and Powersand (which btw, has even more NH4 and others already in it) are reasonably prices here in the US, or slightly more costly, a few dollars really, than Flourite or Eco-Complete. Other ADA stuff is very expensive, but then again its hand blown glass and/or very attractive.



> I can't believe you people. There is just tons of blatant evidence that ADA Aqua Soil makes a huge difference, but no one wants to accept it.
> 
> Well fine then, I'll be investigating on my own then.
> 
> ...


I have to say, that response and your original posts felt very goading. I initially felt that you were trying to egg us on, or embarass us into spilling some beans. The internet can be difficult to interperet the actual feelings and emotoins, the tones, behind posts and to top it off we are often from different countries. You wanted to scientifically figure out who/why ADA stuff works and the first step in that is to find out all the methods you were using develop and expirament from that. If you were not adding all nutrients to the Eco tank in quantities suitable to sustain non-limiting growth under high light and CO2 supplimentation, then a comparision to ADA based on that info is like comparing apples to oranges.

I am not saying ADA is not goods stuff, or that one should not spend the money for it but saying that its all that works goes against what many experience aquarists have learned from first hand experience.

Plus, the whole it should be free for the public thing never makes sense to me.... You woudl not call Kelloggs and demand their recipe for Forsted Flakes, why is ADA bad if they developed a great product and won't shar the ingredients?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

George H said:


> I WAS USING ECO COMPLETE THE FIRST TIME. I also fertilize with Tropica Master Grow and Florish Potassium and Iron.


So no N or P...



> I can't believe you people. There is just tons of blatant evidence that ADA Aqua Soil makes a huge difference, but no one wants to accept it.


Please don't make assumptions like that and jump to conclusions. Nobody has said that ADA Aqua Soil is not good or that it can't make a difference. I think the point being made (or at least the point I was trying to make  perhaps badly) was that you have to compare apples to apples. A substrate without added nutrients in it can work very well if the water column is well fertilized.



> yet everyone wants to instantly jump on me and assume that I "wasn't adequately fertilizing the tank".


You weren't. 

And I agree that it would be good to know more in detail what is in ADA AS.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

chiahead said:


> I thought he posted that he was using flourite. Doesnt that come with alot of nutrients as well?


No, Flourite is inert. It does contain iron but its attraction with plants is it's ability to lock onto nutrients with its very porous structure, so the nutrients are more available to the plants.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

George H said:


> I WAS USING ECO COMPLETE THE FIRST TIME. I also fertilize with Tropica Master Grow and Florish Potassium and Iron.
> 
> I can't believe you people. There is just tons of blatant evidence that ADA Aqua Soil makes a huge difference, but no one wants to accept it.
> 
> ...


Please accept my apology! I was not trying to shoot you down. But, you were not fertilizing with macros, only micros. TMG and the two Flourish ferts you mention do not provide the needed nitrogen and phosphorous the plants need. ADA AS does provide those - ADA AS uses ammonia as a source of nitrogen, which works becauses it is locked into the grains of the material, where it can't seep into the water to cause algae issues. Eco Complete also contains fertilizers, but I'm not sure how much of what it contains. The black water component of Eco Complete is the fertilizer part. Everything I have read says you should still dose nitrates and phosphates with Eco Complete to be successful.

There is lots of information about ADA AS in http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/search.php?searchid=302180
which is where I learned what I know about it, along with other forums.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

dennis said:


> I think I have said this before but here is my take on ADA Aqua Soil.... It is a semi-fired clay probably in the smectite family. It has a high (-) charge meaning that it will readily bind with cations like NH4+ and Ca++, Mg++, K+, Fe+ and CO3+, lowering the Gh, kH and providing a substrate source of these nutrients. Along with this comes a theory I have that the reason ADA fertalizers stress K so heavily is that 1) the substrate removes most of the K+ from the water column where it is very important to stomata and osmotic regulation and 2) the extra K+ helps to bury the NH4 already in the substrate preventing excess leaching and and helping ensure a slow release of the N source.


Thanks dennis, that's some useful info! Just wondering, can you say what your source is for your info?

Heh, I picture a younger Amano trying different clays and experimenting with firing durations and such and hitting on a "magic formula," after which yen signs appear in his eyes. (Hehe sorry, only kidding, couldn't resist! :twisted


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

I know I said that Flourite had stuff in it. It does, maybe in small quatities and not everything a plant needs but it does have it.
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourite.html

BTW I am an avid supporter and user of ADA aquasoil. I love it and would never use anything else again. Personally I dont care whats in it, just that it works. Sure if I knew then thats great. I dont know why people are getting soo mad about this post?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

chiahead said:


> I know I said that Flourite had stuff in it. It does, maybe in small quatities and not everything a plant needs but it does have it.
> http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourite.html
> 
> BTW I am an avid supporter and user of ADA aquasoil. I love it and would never use anything else again. Personally I dont care whats in it, just that it works. Sure if I knew then thats great. I dont know why people are getting soo mad about this post?


If I didn't have about 35 pounds of Soilmaster sitting in my storage shed I would be very interested in using ADA AS in my 45 gallon tank I will soon set up. It appears to be the best of the commercial substrates, from all that I have read. So, I certainly have no anger towards those who like it.

In fact the only anger I have seen on this subject was by the original poster, and I apologized for what he felt was my putting him down, which, again I had no intention of doing. When I see someone presenting a problem they have and I think I see the solution to their problem I have an urge to tell them what I think they should do. My failure is that I am not always as diplomatic in doing that as I should be.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Salt said:


> Thanks dennis, that's some useful info! Just wondering, can you say what your source is for your info?


My brain Much of what I said is based on common sense and info I have picked up in reading. Also, I had a terrific college Soil class this past semester adn the professor was more than happy to chat with me about aquatic aspect. Reverse engineering, as George said. If it is pulling hardness from the water it has to be very high in exchange sites plus the fact that it essentially locks up + molecules rather that weakly holding them (like Flourite does, and btw, Flourite has a very low CEC). The fact that the ADA is binding the NH4 and K+ indicate to my meager knowledge that we are dealign with a smectite type clay (Soilmaster and others also fall into this category) although I think the key to ADA is the level to which it is fired. Hard enough to take away much of its shrink/swell but not so harrd that the high - charge is lost. The NH4 and K are held so well in this substrate because they actually work to pull the clay sheets together.

Onen interesting thing to mention here, although ADA stuff is a "tropical plant sunstrate" and even called Amazonia, it certainly is not tropical in nature as a true tropical clay is so highly weathered that it comprised almost entirely of Al and Fe oxides and generally these clays have a positive charge due to this high weathering. A typicalsoil from the Amazon region would be an Oxisol (made up of Kaolinite and Fe/Al oxides) and is very low in CEC, often less than 3 cmol/kg while a smectite clay could have a CEC of over 100 cmol/kg. Personally, I think that if one wanted to try a DIY ADA soil, I would start by looking into the product Oil-Dri, a highly expansive, low-fired smectite type clay

If your interested in this stuff, I highly recommend "The Nature and Properties of Soils" Brady, 2002 (he is emeritus Prof of Soil Science at Cornell)



> Heh, I picture a younger Amano trying different clays and experimenting with firing durations and such and hitting on a "magic formula," after which yen signs appear in his eyes. (Hehe sorry, only kidding, couldn't resist! :twisted


hehe. Maybe. He is obviouslya very bright fellow and I remember reading that he studied biology and something else in college. Personally I don't give to shakes for "crackign his code" but the science behind the whole thing intregues me. Heck, its why I took the soils class in the first place.


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

I'd personally like to know what/how much is in the ADA fertilizers. It would be really helpful in dosing rather than the old dump some in, and test (if there is a test for it). With the step1, Green Gain & ECA you really don't know exactly what micros you are adding.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I have 3 tanks with Aquasoil. The newest of the 3 setups needs a lot less nitrogen and phosphorus dosing than the oldest, which is about a year old now. After a while the Aquasoil isn't as effective as when you initially set the tank up. This is not to say it's not beneficial. If I didn't like it I wouldn't have used it two more times. 

In my experience the best way to grow plants is to know what's going on in the tank and to be able to dose by 'feel'. This takes time, patience and trial and error. For this reason I agree that it would be helpful to know more about the science behind Aquasoil.


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## Craig Tarvin (Jul 26, 2005)

George H said:


> I WAS USING ECO COMPLETE THE FIRST TIME. I also fertilize with Tropica Master Grow and Florish Potassium and Iron.
> 
> I can't believe you people. There is just tons of blatant evidence that ADA Aqua Soil makes a huge difference, but no one wants to accept it.
> 
> ...


Why are you getting so worked up? People are trying to help you, I think it would help if you relaxed a little.


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

AaronT said:


> The newest of the 3 setups needs a lot less nitrogen and phosphorus dosing than the oldest, which is about a year old now.


I don't understand that. Most people have said exactly that about AS. Yet my tank, which is about 1-1/2 mos old, is bottoming out on N & P. P was at 0 & N was around 2ppm. I'm having to add a bunch of N & P to get my levels up. I wouldn't have been to worried about it except my plants were definitely showing deficiencies. Maybe I have too many plants...wait there's no such thing is there? :lol:


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Ajax said:


> I don't understand that. Most people have said exactly that about AS. Yet my tank, which is about 1-1/2 mos old, is bottoming out on N & P. P was at 0 & N was around 2ppm. I'm having to add a bunch of N & P to get my levels up. I wouldn't have been to worried about it except my plants were definitely showing deficiencies. Maybe I have too many plants...wait there's no such thing is there? :lol:


We're saying the same thing. My wording was poor.

My oldest tank needs tons of NPK added.
My newest tank needs less NPK added.

I'd agree that after about 6 weeks one should dose NPK regularly.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

George, people are looking at your question scientificaly beyond the product names and labels. You are convinced that Aqua soil alone is the only factor for you incredible success. Other people hear that and want to know what other factors are involved. There is always lots of factors involved. Plants need macro nutrients and minor nutrients. As long as they are getting those nutrients they will grow like crazy.

Nobody really knows what AS contains as far as minerals and macro nutrients, because Amano does not release that information. I can not imagine it would contain much of any macros, (nitrogen, phosphate, potassium, magnesium, calcium)



> blatant evidence that ADA Aqua Soil makes a huge difference, but no one wants to accept it.


What blatant evidence would that be? There are lots of ways to skin a cat and grow a plant, but there are more ADA supporters in this forum than anywhere else on the internet.


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

AaronT said:


> We're saying the same thing. My wording was poor.
> 
> My oldest tank needs tons of NPK added.
> My newest tank needs less NPK added.
> ...


How old is old? I just didn't think I would need to add tons of NPK to a tank that is only 6 weeks old. It doesn't bother me in the least. I like messing with stuff  I'm just surprised because most people have said what you did in that it was 6-8 months down the road before they were adding a lot of macros (other than K) to an AS tank.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Ajax,

True, but I am guessing the in a high light tank, ADA would recommend their Special Lights fertalizer and I bet it includes N/P sources.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

It depends on how hard you are driving the tank as Dennis pointed out. My oldest tank with Aquasoil is a year old and has metal halide lighting. It's 2x175 watts over a 75 gallon + 2x54 T5HOs. Needless to say, that and a tank full of stems drained it pretty fast of NPK.


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> Ajax,
> 
> True, but I am guessing the in a high light tank, ADA would recommend their Special Lights fertalizer and I bet it includes N/P sources.


It does, but it must be pretty minimal. I put 20ml in there, and my N only went up to around 10ppm and my P was already at 2. So to get my N up to 15ppm I would have had to add 30ml which would have brought my P up to 3. I still have it for back up, but I think I prefer to add them independently. I also noticed that N & P bottomed out much quicker (by the end of the day) with the Brighty Lights than with the Seachem products, so it must have a higher bioavailability or works in conjunction with the AS. Probably why the directions say to dose every day. I definitely have a high light tank at almost 4wpg, but it's the same wattage Amano uses, and it doesn't seem like he doses that much. Hey (knocks on wood) at least I haven't seen any algae :lol:

Thanks for all the help guys! Things sure have changed in this hobby since my last tank I did in '96!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Ajax said:


> Things sure have changed in this hobby since my last tank I did in '96!


Things sure have changed since yesterday!! I am constantly amazed at how fast this hobby changes. But, that is one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. I expect to visit here one morning and learn that magnets really do stop algae!!


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## gnatster (Mar 6, 2004)

> I expect to visit here one morning and learn that magnets really do stop algae!!


They do. Place one magnet inside aquarium on glass, place other outside aquarium directly on the same location the interior magnet is located. Move outer magnet slowly side to side as well as up and down. The algae disappears.


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

gnatster said:


> They do. Place one magnet inside aquarium on glass, place other outside aquarium directly on the same location the interior magnet is located. Move outer magnet slowly side to side as well as up and down. The algae disappears.


Is that because all the iron that we add to the tank makes the algae magnetic? I'll have to try that.

I also have a few pounds of metal softener in powdered form if anyone is interested!


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Hmm, I believe Gnatster was joking if you didn't know that. Mag Float makes an algae scraper that uses this concept of scrubber inside the tank, and magnet piece outside of the tank. This thereby keeps your hands dry while scrubbing away algae. I personally don't recommend using this gadget, as sometimes particles get stuck between the scrubber and the glass, leading to scratches.

Oh and try not to scrub up and down, as scratches in the glass are more apparent if it happens.

-John N.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

*Back to the Topic: Testing Aquasoil*

I'm sure someone out there (business) is testing and analyzing the contents of Aquasoil. After all it is just clay and some additives mixed in right?

Unfortunately I don't have access to testing soil samples for free. But if anyone is really interested, you can contact a Lab and give them a sample of the product where they would then analyze the chemical breakdown of the substrate for around $300 per a couple of samples.

However even if you had this information, I couldn't think of what one would do with it besides being comfortable with the fact they know. Businesses on the other hand, can research and develop a knock off of the product if that was in their best interest.

-John N.


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

Yeah, I know. It was my very dry sarcasm :lol:


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