# Water Changes in an NPT?



## dwalstad

mistergreen said:


> I've seen in another forum where a tank has not had a water change in 2 years and it's thriving with discus in it.
> 
> Doing a water change has its benefits too like replenishing Ca & Mg.


Hello Mister Green,

Nice to hear that Discus can do well without a water change.

Water changes won't hurt, but they're also not necessary in an NPT. This is a great reason to have an NPT. Inevitably with global warming and human population growth, water will become more and more precious. For example, Raleigh and several other NC cities are, for the first time, now under mandatory water restrictions; their water reservoirs have only a 100 day supply. Scary.

When hobbyists have to choose between changing water versus taking a shower or flushing the toilet, they might reconsider their insistence that water changes are necessary.

In 2002 my well went dry for several days. With this continued rainfall deficit and hotter summers, I'm concerned that it will happen again. Fortunately, my NPTs don't require water changes to keep the fish happy.

One caveat to your letter. Fishfood will constantly replenish Ca and Mg (my book, p 80), so you don't need water changes to replenish these nutrients. Indeed, I see no reason at all to change tank water if the plants and fish are happy.

To all those who don't change water frequently, congratulations for conserving this precious natural resource!


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## Red_Rose

I know this thread is directed at mistergreen but I can honestly say that I'm surprised that no one responded to this.

I don't know about how other cities and towns are, especially during the summer but I do know that the city I live in always has water restrictions mainly in the summer and fall and it's been that way for many years. Knowing that if all is going well in a NPT, water changes are not necessary is a good thing to know. It helps to save on water I'm sure that a lot of people won't complain about not having to do a water change, even if it is only once every six months.

Thank you for posting this information.


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## dwalstad

Red_Rose said:


> I know this thread is directed at mistergreen but I can honestly say that I'm surprised that no one responded to this.
> 
> I don't know about how other cities and towns are, especially during the summer but I do know that the city I live in always has water restrictions mainly in the summer and fall and it's been that way for many years. Knowing that if all is going well in a NPT, water changes are not necessary is a good thing to know. It helps to save on water I'm sure that a lot of people won't complain about not having to do a water change, even if it is only once every six months.
> 
> Thank you for posting this information.


Nice post. Sometimes, we can be glad that there are no inflammatory responses. 

My post addresses hobbyists who feel guilty if they don't do 50% water changes every week. There's no need to feel guilty. Those that save water may be the true heroes.


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## LuckyLucy

Are you Thee Diana Walstad? Sorry for starting a thread about the goings on in another forum here. 
I notice you've replied to a post that MisterGreen made in that thread. After Tom Barr gave me his permission to have his article posted there as a sticky, I asked him for his help regarding DOC. After a couple of days of no response, I gave up. He did eventually respond though. (He warned me about that place too) It does seem pretty clicky over there and childish as well. As Carissa put it, "confrontational." 

That thread has been closed but I now have a TDS meter. I'm thinking of asking the thread-closing moderator if I can post the readings there. The only thing is that I'm afraid I'm going to be attacked again. Should I just let it go and post them here? It's a Milwalkee brand and has to be calibrated. I just got it and it looks like it has to be a certain temperature. I still have to read the directions. 

As for saving water, yes. I live in Florida and have frequent droughts durring the winter months. Many illegally water their lawns but it isn't enforced as it should be. Do you remember when poeple would say that there is no "aquarium police" and that no one would take you away in hand-cuffs when you missed a water change? Well, it should be reversed!  One should be taken away upon doing water wasting water changes. 

Lucy


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## LuckyLucy

dwalstad said:


> Hello Mister Green,
> 
> Nice to hear that Discus can do well without a water change.
> 
> Water changes won't hurt, but they're also not necessary in an NPT. This is a great reason to have an NPT. Inevitably with global warming and human population growth, water will become more and more precious. For example, Raleigh and several other NC cities are, for the first time, now under mandatory water restrictions; their water reservoirs have only a 100 day supply. Scary.
> 
> When hobbyists have to choose between changing water versus taking a shower or flushing the toilet, they might reconsider their insistence that water changes are necessary.
> 
> In 2002 my well went dry for several days. With this continued rainfall deficit and hotter summers, I'm concerned that it will happen again. Fortunately, my NPTs don't require water changes to keep the fish happy.
> 
> One caveat to your letter. Fishfood will constantly replenish Ca and Mg (my book, p 80), so you don't need water changes to replenish these nutrients. Indeed, I see no reason at all to change tank water if the plants and fish are happy.
> 
> To all those who don't change water frequently, congratulations for conserving this precious natural resource!


I still can't get over it. This is really you! If well-meaning hobbiests had to choose, I doubt there'd be a one with a dry mouth, stinky body, and clogged toilet despite a "clean" tank.
Lucy


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## DataGuru

I'd love to see data on TDS readings over time in a NPT.


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## tkos

Make sure to check up on proper calibration for your specific TDS meter. Often things like temp can have drastic effects on your readings.


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## dwalstad

DataGuru said:


> I'd love to see data on TDS readings over time in a NPT.


Here's my readings from an earlier thread I started on water changes.

"(9/22/07) I've not done water changes for many months and have replaced a lot of evaporated water. Yesterday, I tested the water with my conductivity meter. This gadget measures the electrical conductance of salts (anions and cations like Na+, Cl-, K+, etc) in the water.

The gadget's principle is simple: The more salts in the water, the more the water conducts electricity. I predicted that my tanks would have very high conductivity readings suggesting a huge salt build-up. They didn't.

Here are the results (all in mS/cm2):

My Tapwater: 0.31 mS/cm2
45 gal tank: 0.32
50 gal tanK: 0.44
55 gal tank: 0.37
0.05% solution (or 5 ppm) NaCl: 1.13

Studies of aquatic plant composition show that plants take up salts like NaCl that they don't need or use."

I've noticed that my tanks with less plant growth tend to accumulate salts and have higher readings.

I think that measuring conductivity or TDS is the best evidence of whether you actually need to do a water change.

Note that meters for TDS (Total Dissolved Salts) is another way to measure salt buildup. In general, conductivity (which I measured in my tanks), is roughly about 2X TDS. For example, a water report for Brisbane (AUSTRALIA) has a conductivity of 549 uS/cm and a TDS of 351 ppm.

As to posting threads about water changes on contentious websites, I wouldn't waste my time. Over time, evidence (plant uptake of salts and nutrient recycling in NPTs) and necessity (the increasing scarcity of water) will trump idealogy (water changes are essential for fish and plant health).

Hobbyists that advocate water changes are part of the old crowd that believes that pollution problems can be solved by dilution. It works great as long as there's an ample source of clean water. Those days are going fast!

Last, I am very pleased with the thoughtful comments by hobbyists in this thread.


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## DataGuru

Interesting. Has GH gone up?

I haven't read up on it yet... is that the same as an OPR meter?


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## bartoli

dwalstad said:


> I've noticed that my tanks with less plant growth tend to accumulate salts and have higher readings.


I too had a similar observation. In my oldest tank (a 10g one), I hadn't changed water in a number of years. At one time, I measured the conductivity using a Pinpoint conductivity meter and got 239 microSiemens (for comparison, 1 mS/cm2 = 1000 microSiemens).

At the same time I got 453 microSiemens for a 2.5g experimental tank (less than 2-year old, again with no water change). That tank was for growing a giant moss ball. Thus, comparing with the 10g, the plant growth was much less. To oxygenate the soil substrate, it had java fern and water wistera.

As to reducing unnecessary water change, most people probably do want to conserve water. But they lack proven quantifiable guidelines. Thus, they still rely on practices that serve them well, albeit wasteful. Does it make sense to say that water change is needed when conductivity is above a certain range? If so, what are the science behind it?


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## PlantMauller

dwalstad said:


> As to posting threads about water changes on contentious websites, I wouldn't waste my time. Over time, evidence (plant uptake of salts and nutrient recycling in NPTs) and necessity (the increasing scarcity of water) will trump idealogy (water changes are essential for fish and plant health).


Just to add my 2 cents. I have an EL Natural tank and have 4 small adolescent Discus in it. My tank is relatively new - about 1 month old. The plant growth is excellent and algae growth is just about nothing. I only top off evaporated water. The Discus look great...they are feeding, color is good, etc.

A good friend of mine set up a successful 100 gallon high tech Amano tank and he advised me not to try to keep Discus in a 'Walstad' tank. I can't wait to show him the tank and the Discus once I finished aquascaping it. YOU CAN KEEP DISCUS IN AN EL NATURAL TANK WITHOUT THE WATER CHANGES USED BY THE DISCUS BREEDERS.


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## Brilliant

Please show me the pics of your discus. You cannot grow out discus properly without changing water.


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## newbie314

Look at the link on the bottom of his message. It's a blog. I saw a few pictures.


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## dwalstad

PlantMauller said:


> Just to add my 2 cents. I have an EL Natural tank and have 4 small adolescent Discus in it. My tank is relatively new - about 1 month old. The plant growth is excellent and algae growth is just about nothing. I only top off evaporated water. The Discus look great...they are feeding, color is good, etc.
> 
> A good friend of mine set up a successful 100 gallon high tech Amano tank and he advised me not to try to keep Discus in a 'Walstad' tank. I can't wait to show him the tank and the Discus once I finished aquascaping it. YOU CAN KEEP DISCUS IN AN EL NATURAL TANK WITHOUT THE WATER CHANGES USED BY THE DISCUS BREEDERS.


Thanks for adding your 2 cents. Amen, Brother! 

On your blog, I see that you used a UV sterilizing filter for your setup. This was a smart thing to do-- especially for an initial setup with delicate fish.

I predict that your young Discus, with such a conscientious owner, will continue to do well.

In my opinion, the NPT (with a UV sterilizing filter) is a winning combination.


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## Brilliant

Ignorance is bliss...

I do not see anything "Natural" about keeping discus in hardwater. I do not want to derail the water conservation train but if you want to save water do not raise young discus.[smilie=i: The discus mentioned, which promted this thread are most likely grown fish in a well established tank. Not juvenile fish which require many feeding per day to grow to their potential. I dont belive in stunting hormone I believe in waste that needs to be removed, waste that will accumulate faster then the established tank can remove. I guess if you have no problem with stunted discus then your good to go.


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## PlantMauller

Brilliant said:


> Ignorance is bliss...
> 
> I dont belive in stunting hormone I believe in waste that needs to be removed, waste that will accumulate faster then the established tank can remove. I guess if you have no problem with stunted discus then your good to go.


What wastes accumulate faster than an established tanks with abundant plants can remove? What waste by product will stunt the Discus growth? My discus seem to be growing fine. I'm trying to understand.  Is it ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, ..., specifically what is it??


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## Cliff Mayes

New things can be frightening. Sometimes fear become anger.

Common wisdom is not very wise at times.

Fear is a safe response but adventurous behavior creates change and sometimes progress.

Just because we do things a certain way now does not mean that it was always so or will be so in the future.

Living things try to adapt to conditions, and sometimes they succeed.


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## Viettxboii

Very well thought out.
Sometimes if we break past common things, new things can be discovered, thats why i want to convert to npt , saving water and the sorts.
Global warming is affecting us all and we gotta keep that in mind.
My english teacher has said she worries for the future, where future generations will have a big worry about finding clean water, because of our wastefulness.
And i don't want a future like that.


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## Brilliant

PlantMauller said:


> Is it ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, ..., specifically what is it??


D. All of the above

Poor water quality will stunt discus. I think the planted tank is an excellent choice for discus. Water changes are still needed...unless you have large natural environment, like a river 

Ut oh...philosophical nonsense, global warming and english teachers. Sounds like I am in over my head.

As I am writing this my third pair of discus have just begun spawning.


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## PlantMauller

Brilliant said:


> D. All of the above
> 
> Poor water quality will stunt discus. I think the planted tank is an excellent choice for discus. Water changes are still needed...unless you have large natural environment, like a river


Then I think I'm on the right track. My tank test zero for nitrates/nitrites/ammonia. The good plant growth and the quantity of plants seems to eliminate those things. I say my water quality is very good. I'm a bit of a pragmatist, so here are my questions: Why constantly change the water? Why change the water unless there was something in it that I wanted to dilute or get rid of? What else in the tank water would stunt discus growth?

I'm feeding the discus 2 times a day. I'm feeding them Tetra ColorBits (http://www.petco.com/shop/product.a...bazaarvoice-_-RLP-_-3313-_-image_linkhttp://). As a general rule they eat all the bits. A few escape and the shrimp and snails take care of those. I actually add some flake food everyday for the plants (the discus don't even think about eating it). In time I'll introduce brine shrimp, blood worms, etc (I have to first figure out how not to make a mess of things at every feeding).

As Diana mentioned, and I mention in my blog, I have a UV sterilizer installed that runs 24/7 to eliminate any parasites the discus my be sensitive to. So, I think the water quality is very good and there is a UV sterilizer for added safety. Looks like the discus are adjusting to the non preferred temp, water hardness, and lighting just fine.

I will make blog entries over time showing the progress of the discus.


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## Brilliant

UV...good idea but I dislike that food. You bet I will be watching, keep us posted. You can see the progress of my discus from quarter sized juvies to spawning in a planted tank...on my website. I will update it with these new spawning pics I just got.


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## JensR

Does anybody has some long term (TDS or conductivity ) data for this, at least a couple months? I always was thinking to perform water changes base on TDS even for high-tech tanks (non-EI). What would be the max "critical" value at which point a WC would be required? What is a "optimal" value? What are the undesired symptoms of a high TDS in plants?


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## Homer_Simpson

In this hobby, there is always more than one way to a successful tank with healthy inhabitants. I don't think there is a right way and a wrong way, just different ways. As I have stated before there are no black and white rules, the only black and white rules are the ones hobbyists make up and restrict themselves to. Planted tanks, non-planted tanks, high tech, low tech, semi natural planted tank, full natural planted tank, unfertilized, fertilized, pool filter sand substrate, laterite + pool filter sand mix, topsoil + vermiculate mix, sand from a local river, fluorite substrate, eco-complete substrate, kitty litter substrate, schultz aquatic soil substrate, different subtrates mixed, Amazonian I & II substrate tanks, soil w/c02 injection and water column fertilizers, soil w/no c02 and no water column fertilization or only some, weekly water changes, no water changes for 3-6 months, 20% monthly water change, 30% water changes weekly, 2% daily water changes, and everything in between works, it has been proven time and time again by hobbyists. Just Google the subject and you will see. The key is experimenting and finding what you like and what works best for you, and perhaps what you may be restricted to based on your budget, time, amount of short term and long term effort that you are prepared to invest, and local restrictions(some people are on water rations and so like to do minimal water changes). If you do something a different way, post about it and it proves to work then it becomes very difficult to dispute or say that you are doing things wrong.

In the interests of furthering this hobby and learning from one another, why cannot we all learn just to get along with one another?


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## guppyramkrib

Homer_Simpson said:


> In this hobby, there is always more than one way to a successful tank with healthy inhabitants. I don't think there is a right way and a wrong way, just different ways. As I have stated before there are no black and white rules, the only black and white rules are the ones hobbyists make up and restrict themselves to. Planted tanks, non-planted tanks, high tech, low tech, semi natural planted tank, full natural planted tank, unfertilized, fertilized, pool filter sand substrate, laterite + pool filter sand mix, topsoil + vermiculate mix, sand from a local river, fluorite substrate, eco-complete substrate, kitty litter substrate, schultz aquatic soil substrate, different subtrates mixed, Amazonian I & II substrate tanks, soil w/c02 injection and water column fertilizers, soil w/no c02 and no water column fertilization or only some, weekly water changes, no water changes for 3-6 months, 20% monthly water change, 30% water changes weekly, 2% daily water changes, and everything in between works, it has been proven time and time again by hobbyists. Just Google the subject and you will see. The key is experimenting and finding what you like and what works best for you, and perhaps what you may be restricted to based on your budget, time, amount of short term and long term effort that you are prepared to invest, and local restrictions(some people are on water rations and so like to do minimal water changes). If you do something a different way, post about it and it proves to work then it becomes very difficult to dispute or say that you are doing things wrong.
> 
> In the interests of furthering this hobby and learning from one another, why cannot we all learn just to get along with one another?


Bravo 
Well said


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## Homer_Simpson

JensR said:


> Does anybody has some long term (TDS or conductivity ) data for this, at least a couple months? I always was thinking to perform water changes base on TDS even for high-tech tanks (non-EI). What would be the max "critical" value at which point a WC would be required? What is a "optimal" value? What are the undesired symptoms of a high TDS in plants?


Check the 8th posting in this whole thread from the start. I could be mistaken, but I believe DataGuru asked something along the same lines, and Diana Walstead responded with her TDS readings without water changes.


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## Homer_Simpson

guppyramkrib said:


> Bravo
> Well said


Thanks, just my $20 worth, lol  I'll probably get flamed by others, but that's okay. I get flamed enough by my clients at work, so I am used to it.

By the way, I really like the way your tanks are coming along and have progressed. Excellent job! And thanks for sharing.


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## Brilliant

Homer_Simpson said:


> In this hobby, there is always more than one way to a successful tank with healthy inhabitants......


I understand but my friend here disagrees on this one...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:*&q=discus+no+water+change&btnG=Search

I am all about trying new stuff and going against the grain...heck I grow out discus in planted tank...


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## Homer_Simpson

Brilliant said:


> I understand but my friend here disagrees on this one...
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:*&q=discus+no+water+change&btnG=Search
> 
> I am all about trying new stuff and going against the grain...heck I grow out discus in planted tank...


While I see your point and can appreciate what you are saying with great respect, *can you honestly say that those articles are written by people who attempted or experimented with keeping Discus in a Natural Planted Tank?* They used one set way to raise discus, but that does not mean that is the only way or their way is the right way.

Poor water quality from lack of water changes? Perhaps in an unplanted tank? It would be rare to get an ammonia spike, let alone a nitrite spike in a planted tank, natural or not unless one severly overfed fish, the tank was severley overstocked, plants were unhealthy and began decaying by the dozen(that's happened to me in a high tank tank, what a mess!!), or a dead fish carcass was laying around somewhere in the tank and missed for days on in. What about high nitrates? Well, the concept of a natural planted tank calls for the use of many floaters which are known to quickly absorb nitrates(I noticed this first hand when I fishless cycled a tank using ammonia and used floaters in the final stage to reduce nitrates). Quick growing stem plants and plants that obtain their nutrients from the water column(java moss and java fern) will also absorb excess nitrates to some extent. What about bad bacteria, parasites, fungal spores, and the lot that could possibly take residence in a natural planted tank, possibly due to a lack of water changes and an accumulation of waste? If a UV sterilizer is used, that would be highly unlikely.

Then it leaves the question of stunted discus growth due to lack of water changes? If the discus due naturally secret a hormone in the water that needs to be removed with frequent water changes or it stunts their growth, then you may see stunted growth of Discus in a Natural Planted Tank. Generally speaking I know when I did not change water too frequently in my unplanted tank the fish remained smaller and when I increased the frequency of water changes, they seemed to grow faster. Again, this was what I observed in an *unplanted *tank. Also, does it necessarily mean that stunted growth is a measure of good or poor health as far as fish are concerned? My fish appeared equally healthy before and after the frequent water changes despite changes in size.

A Natural Planted Tank really does take a Leap Of Faith and goes against conventional wisdom and fish keeping, so it is not always easy to commit to. Tom Barr and Diana Walstead are both highly regarded in the aquarium world and while they may disagree on a lot, they both agree that a low tech /low maintenance tank requiring infrequent water changes is entirely doable and while I am new to their concepts and only now experimenting with them, I am sure there are tons of people from both the Tom Barr and Diana Walstead camp with many years experience setting up such tanks that will tell you, yes it is possible. Many of those have also made the switch from high tech to low tech and will tell you that they wished they had done so earlier considering that the fish are just as healthy and a lot less time and effort is required to achieve and maintain stability and balance.


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## bartoli

Brilliant said:


> I am all about trying new stuff


Great! If you read Ms. Walstad's book, you will learn how to create a tank environment that makes good use of ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites. You won't need any water change to get rid of those byproducts.


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## Wiedertäufer

Homer_Simpson said:


> If the discus due naturally secret a hormone in the water that needs to be removed with frequent water changes or it stunts their growth, then you may see stunted growth of Discus in a Natural Planted Tank.


Is there any research evidence that they actually do secrete such a hormone?


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## Homer_Simpson

Wiedertäufer said:


> Is there any research evidence that they actually do secrete such a hormone?


Good question. According to Jack Wattley, all discus secrete this growth suppressing hormone.

*Source:
http://www.zestweb.com/articles/water/water.html

"world renown Discus breeder Jack Wattley, believes that all discus secrete a growth suppressing hormone that builds up and slows the growth rate of other Discus. Changing water get rids of this hormone apparantly. Not only hormones but nitrates also plays a part in slowing a Discus growth. That's why some people put planted plants into their tanks."*

*Some apparently don't buy into this idea, Tom Barr for example.
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200105/msg00324.html*

*As per Tom Barr:
"Carbon will/should remove those. I certainly don't buy the stunting idea. I
have seen no evidence with anyone's fish that does more water changes over
someone who doesn't myself included. Feeding is more likely what's going on
there. Diet is more important than this issue ever could be. If you feed
like crazy you also will build up waste faster, not so much this stunting
enzyme/hormone. The waste from heavy feeding is likely what's at hand here.
I've seen Discus that get, if they are lucky, a weekly 20-30 % change. they
are full blown adult sized fish. Are bigger Discus better discus?
Not to judge, but to you? Is an inch smaller a cause for concern? Will it
affect spawn sizes or abilities? Rumors or fact?
It seems like a rumor to me. A Big tank with less fish will help. 5-8 in a
135 should pose no problems. Food is the most important issue for just about
any fish breeding attempts. Are these wild or tank raised?
We got some heavies in the Discus world here and I can ask them about all of
this issue but it seems very unlikey."*

With respect to water changes from the article links in Google it seems some people keeping discus for years in non-natural planted tanks were able to get away with doing water changes every month only. Some discus keepers say that Discus get severley stressed by water changes and go into hiding.

*Some say that the Discus are not as sensitive as we make them out to be and are highly adaptable to a wide range of water parameters.
http://cichlidae.com/article.php?id=25*


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## Red_Rose

Can anyone tell me a little more about uv sterilizers?

Do you hook them up to a filter? If that's the case, what are you suppose to do if you have fish that despise currents? Not only that but from what I've briefly read about them, they seem to be made for larger tanks so what are people with small tanks suppose to do?

If you don't have a uv sterilizer in your tank does that mean your pretty much screwed and will end up having a ton of problems with it?(for NPT's)


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## Homer_Simpson

Red_Rose said:


> Can anyone tell me a little more about uv sterilizers?
> 
> Do you hook them up to a filter? If that's the case, what are you suppose to do if you have fish that despise currents? Not only that but from what I've briefly read about them, they seem to be made for larger tanks so what are people with small tanks suppose to do?
> 
> If you don't have a uv sterilizer in your tank does that mean your pretty much screwed and will end up having a ton of problems with it?(for NPT's)


What size tank do you have? If you have a 10 gallon, you should have no problem with this brand UV sterlizer. This is the one I use in one of my 10 gallons and it fits perfectly. 
http://www.aa-aquarium.com/showroom4.php?id=156&level=1

I saw an ad for someone selling it in Toronto - I will PM you that link. It may be worth checking out if you are looking into one.

The only problem that I have with UV sterilizers is having to change the bulb at least once a year. You can run them half time to extend the bulb life, but this could shorten it given that you are turning the bulb on and off more frequently which could cause the bulb to go sooner. I am not sure if I can get a replacement bulb locally, someone told me good luck and it can get costly if I have to special order one on-line(with shipping, customs, duty, etc.,). This is why I am looking into a cheaper alternative like diatom filters not just for my natural planted tank, but for all my tanks. Diatom filters like these: http://diatomfilters.com/index1.html can apparently be used for tanks from 10 gallons and up and some can be continuously run. Cost wise, initially they are roughly the same as a UV sterilzer, but in the long run they are cheaper to operate. They apparently will filter out parasites completely and leave water crystal clear. I don't think you have run them 24/7, just once every few months and then when you add new fish in case those fish came down with something, you can run the diatom filter for a couple of weeks or so to filter out any parasites that may become water borne.

I also won't buy fish from Wal-Mart no matter how cheap. I don't think that there fish are all that healthy as I always see a bunch of dead fish in their tanks among the live ones. I don't even think that staff remove them right away, sometimes fish are eating away at the dead diseased carcasses, and only God knows how long the dead fish were left in there. Actually, anytime I see a dead fish in a pet store aquarium, I will steer clear of buying fish from that pet store. I have a local pet store that offers a 30 day warranty and I have had no problems with these fish dieing on me or making my other fish sick, so I usually stick with them and even pay more if I have to.


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## Wiedertäufer

> "world renown Discus breeder Jack Wattley, *believes* that all discus secrete a growth suppressing hormone that builds up and slows the growth rate of other Discus.


If Jack Wattley wants me to accept his belief, he's going to need to isolate this mysterious substance, demonstrate it's existence and effect in a controlled experiment, tell me what it's chemical formula is and explain how it chemically reacts to suppress growth in another fish.

Until then, it's just another aquarium urban myth.

One thing I love about Walstad & Barr's work is that they reference actual scientific experiments and studies.


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## PlantMauller

Wiedertäufer said:


> If Jack Wattley wants me to accept his belief, he's going to need to isolate this mysterious substance, demonstrate it's existence and effect in a controlled experiment, tell me what it's chemical formula is and explain how it chemically reacts to suppress growth in another fish.
> 
> Until then, it's just another aquarium urban myth.
> 
> One thing I love about Walstad & Barr's work is that they reference actual scientific experiments and studies.


Agreed. From practical observation it looks like the "stunting factor" of discus, or any fish for that matter, appears to be poor water quality.

My plants are growing exceptionally well, my water quality is very good because of all the help I get from the plants, the discus appear healthy and are growing.

(...and my thought is that if there exists such a hormone, which I have yet to find definitive information on, it is probably some carbon based protein and, if so, would probably be eaten (ingested and digested) by the billions of bacteria in a healthy planted tank....just me thinking out loud)


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## PlantMauller

Red_Rose said:


> Can anyone tell me a little more about uv sterilizers?
> 
> Do you hook them up to a filter? If that's the case, what are you suppose to do if you have fish that despise currents? Not only that but from what I've briefly read about them, they seem to be made for larger tanks so what are people with small tanks suppose to do?
> 
> If you don't have a uv sterilizer in your tank does that mean your pretty much screwed and will end up having a ton of problems with it?(for NPT's)


Here's a link that may help: http://aquaticamatuer.wordpress.com/category/uv-sterilizer/


----------



## littleguy

My first post in months... the warm weather has kept me away from the computer till now.

Getting back to the original thread, if there's one thing I hate about this hobby it's water changes. I know myself well enough to know that I will never keep up with a prescribed regimen. I have long wondered how often they must be done in an NPT. 

My latest tank seems to support Diana's statements at the top of the thread. I just looked back at my log book and noticed that I have not done a water change since I set up my 40-gal tank in March. Yes, the original water is still in there. Except for at one point when I lowered the level by 5 gallons to test some floaters, and then topped back up after a couple of months when the test was over. My tank breaks most of the high tech "rules" (no water changes, no ferts, no bio-filtration, no CO2, etc.) and also breaks some of the low-tech guidelines (high lighting, possibly overstocked). It even breaks many of the general rules - no heater, filter, or powerhead (temp stays around 70-72F since I have central air/heat). It's certainly not the setup for everyone, but it's exactly the right setup for me.

Now I have to say, this is still a work in progress, and there have been some ups and downs. Nine months is not that long... it could crash next month, who knows. I've had some bouts with algae, mostly in the beginning, which I handled in some natural (floaters and plant growth) and not-so-natural ways (excel and diatom filters). But I think the algae might be stabilized to an acceptable level and things are starting to reach an equilibrium. And these are easily the happiest, healthiest looking fish I've ever kept. The drama with this tank has certainly been much less than I experienced with my first tank several years ago (a textbook "conventional" setup). That first tank was plagued by algae, poor fish health, etc. due in large part to my inability to stick with the maintenance regimen for that type of setup. Know thyself.

Anyhow, this forum is so refreshing... I love it.


----------



## dwalstad

littleguy said:


> if there's one thing I hate about this hobby it's water changes. I know myself well enough to know that I will never keep up with a prescribed regimen. I have long wondered how often they must be done in an NPT. Anyhow, this forum is so refreshing... I love it.


Hello Littleguy,

You are right. There is no prescribed regimen for success. Many methods will work. I invariably cater to the easiest method. After all, this is a hobby--- not a job. 

After 6 months of neglect, I finally cleaned up the tanks--- did a 25% water change, pruned planted, did some mulm removal, and added fresh carbon to the filter. The tanks look really nice; plants doing okay, the water is crystal clear, and the fish continue to do well.

After 20 years with this system, I still enjoy my tanks and fish.


----------



## dawntwister

dwalstad said:


> Hello Littleguy,
> 
> You are right. There is no prescribed regimen for success. Many methods will work. I invariably cater to the easiest method. After all, this is a hobby--- not a job.
> 
> After 6 months of neglect, I finally cleaned up the tanks--- did a 25% water change, pruned planted, did some mulm removal, and added fresh carbon to the filter. The tanks look really nice; plants doing okay, the water is crystal clear, and the fish continue to do well.
> 
> After 20 years with this system, I still enjoy my tanks and fish.


Didn't I read that you use a UV sterilizer , for you were having problems with fish deaths? I read if you don't do water changes at least every 2 weeks an UV sterilizer should be used.


----------



## dawntwister

littleguy said:


> My first post in months... the warm weather has kept me away from the computer till now.
> 
> Getting back to the original thread, if there's one thing I hate about this hobby it's water changes. I know myself well enough to know that I will never keep up with a prescribed regimen. I have long wondered how often they must be done in an NPT.
> 
> My latest tank seems to support Diana's statements at the top of the thread. I just looked back at my log book and noticed that I have not done a water change since I set up my 40-gal tank in March. Yes, the original water is still in there. Except for at one point when I lowered the level by 5 gallons to test some floaters, and then topped back up after a couple of months when the test was over. My tank breaks most of the high tech "rules" (no water changes, no ferts, no bio-filtration, no CO2, etc.) and also breaks some of the low-tech guidelines (high lighting, possibly overstocked). It even breaks many of the general rules - no heater, filter, or powerhead (temp stays around 70-72F since I have central air/heat). It's certainly not the setup for everyone, but it's exactly the right setup for me.
> 
> Now I have to say, this is still a work in progress, and there have been some ups and downs. Nine months is not that long... it could crash next month, who knows. I've had some bouts with algae, mostly in the beginning, which I handled in some natural (floaters and plant growth) and not-so-natural ways (excel and diatom filters). But I think the algae might be stabilized to an acceptable level and things are starting to reach an equilibrium. And these are easily the happiest, healthiest looking fish I've ever kept. The drama with this tank has certainly been much less than I experienced with my first tank several years ago (a textbook "conventional" setup). That first tank was plagued by algae, poor fish health, etc. due in large part to my inability to stick with the maintenance regimen for that type of setup. Know thyself.
> 
> Anyhow, this forum is so refreshing... I love it.


Do use a UV sterilizer or diatom filter? What kind of filtering system do you have? I read that these are factors that determine how often you have to change water?


----------



## littleguy

I do not have any filtration whatsoever. My goal for this tank was to have absolutely minimal equipment. Fewer things to maintain, and fewer things to worry about malfunctioning. So far it's working fine... knock on wood. I may be a bit lucky though, who knows.

I have on occasion used a HOT Magnum filter with diatomaceous earth to rid the tank of green water. I would use it for a few days. I maybe used it 3 or 4 times, mostly near the beginning of the setup. After that I would take it out.

If I already had a filter running in this tank, I probably would add a UV sterilizer, as many have advocated. But for now I'm experimenting with maximum simplicity... we'll see how it pans out.


----------



## flagg

I think that the use of a UV sterilizer, full time, is not necessary. NPTs, for the most part, take care of themselves with minor adjustments. Even when they do crash due to neglect, they bounce back quickly. Such was the case with my 30 gal. You can't make a blanket statement like "NPTs don't need water changes ever." Fact is, water changes are called for in certain circumstances. That's what I find fascinating about this setup... nothing is ever 100% certain 100% of the time. Things vary depending on water conditions, flora, fauna, and a host of other conditions that nobody will probably ever be able to isolate with 100% degree of certainty... but I digress.... UV sterilizers, like antibiotic medications, should only be used when absolutely necessary (eg, a bad case of green water algae). Otherwise, just setup your tank and let it be and watch what happens. It seems to me that people are, when they set up a low tech tank, trying to prepare for every possible thing that could go wrong. Relax. Do what you want to do and then adjust your approach as you observe different things go right and wrong in your tank. Don't however, just go and hook up a UV sterilizer just because some people say it's a good idea. Fact is, we don't know, but it's possible that having one hooked up all the time could actually be detrimental to a setup.

I brew beer, and in one of my beer brewing books is a little piece of advice that is recommended any time you get to some of the more delicate steps of beer brewing. It is: "Relax, have a homebrew." My advice to anybody who sets up an NPT is a little modified... "Pour yourself a glass of wine, sit back, and relax; things will work out in the end."

-ricardo


----------



## littleguy

flagg said:


> You can't make a blanket statement like "NPTs don't need water changes ever."


I agree completely. Just to reiterate, even though my tank has had almost no water changes, I'm not advocating that folks abstain from water changes. When I see a problem that requires a water change, I most certainly will do it.



flagg said:


> ... just setup your tank and let it be and watch what happens.... Relax. Do what you want to do and then adjust your approach as you observe different things go right and wrong in your tank..... Pour yourself a glass of wine, sit back, and relax; things will work out in the end.


Well said. It takes great restraint to hold back sometimes, but often it's the best solution in an NPT. The NPT style requires a leap of faith, a great deal of patience, and the willingness to fail in order to learn much more for the next time.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

To add, as I stated to another member who asked me about the necessity of water changes in a NPT, I told him that there was no substitute for experience and observation and that holds for this hobby in general. Ask 5 different people and you will get 5 different contradictory answers all based on differences in individual experiences. Case in point, here is a link to what another person defines as a natural tank. While there are some similarities between his approach and Diana Walstead's approach, the big difference is that he strongly advocates water changes and does not recommend potting soil. The method seems to work for him fine.
http://naturalaquariums.com/plantedtank/0512.html

What works for one person may not necessarily work for another, so best to experiment with different approaches and discover what works best for you. And while we are on the subject of water changes and natural planted tanks, has anyone compared to tanks side by side with all things being equal and one receiving monthly water changes and the other not to see/note differences in fish health and plant growth over a year or more. It would make for an interesting experiment and I would volunteer, but I have no more room in my home for any more fish tanks.

There are many paths to success in this hobby and there is no right or wrong answer. Water changes are never detrimental, although some would argue un-necessary in a NPT. I have successfully had fish that remained healthy for 9+ years and are still alive, albeit in a non-planted tank(peppered cory in 2.5 gallon filtered bowl and 40 gallon community tank). Whether people agree or disagree, I attribute this to the fact that I performed regular water changes of at least 30% a week and never went without a water change for more than a month on both tanks for the fishes' good health and longevity. Most of the people that I know cannot seem to keep their fish alive for more than 3 years, so 9+ years is pretty darn good and I must have done something right to have fish survive as long as they have for me.


----------



## dawntwister

Since the death of a few fish I have decided to go back to using filters. I had diy filters with floss and activated charbon in my quarnteen tank and main tank. I noticed the tanks starting to smell sour. Thus I did a water change in the 10 gallon and moved the ram and 5 ottos into the main tank.

In the 10 gallon tank I noticed that the ram had 2 specs of ich. It was 2am in the mourning when I finished, thus I planned to go later in the day to get ich medication. Before I went I looked at him and the ich spots were gone.

Thus I went and got filter foam pads for my HOB filter. I am sticking to the HOB filter until it fails.

Water changes I will decide upon by - Test Aquarium Water 
Quality with Your Eyes, Finger Tips, and Nose found at http://www.aquariumfish.net/information/test_with_your_eyes.htm

1. Is your Fish's Water Colored? 
Compare color of tap water to tank. Put water from tank in a glass and then put tap water in a similar glass and compare.
2. Water Cloudy, Foamy, or Smelly?
Test Your Water with Your Finger Tips. 
First wash your hands with soap and water. Put the tips of your fingers in tank water and move your fingers quickly to produce bubbles on the surface. The bubbles should pop quickly. If not there is a high concentration of bacteria in the water due to uneaten fish food or fish waste.

littleguy I admire your bravery. Hope it goes well. Keep us posted


----------



## Homer_Simpson

dawntwister said:


> ...Water changes I will decide upon by - Test Aquarium Water
> Quality with Your Eyes, Finger Tips, and Nose found at http://www.aquariumfish.net/information/test_with_your_eyes.htm
> 
> 1. Is your Fish's Water Colored?
> Compare color of tap water to tank. Put water from tank in a glass and then put tap water in a similar glass and compare.
> 2. Water Cloudy, Foamy, or Smelly?
> Test Your Water with Your Finger Tips.
> First wash your hands with soap and water. Put the tips of your fingers in tank water and move your fingers quickly to produce bubbles on the surface. The bubbles should pop quickly. If not there is a high concentration of bacteria in the water due to uneaten fish food or fish waste.
> 
> littleguy I admire your bravery. Hope it goes well. Keep us posted...


That is a good approach but only part of the equation. Equally important is keeping an eye on how your fish behave. IME, when you keep the same fish for a while you can tell when something is not right with them and sometimes it is something as simple as poor water quality that can be rectified with a water change. Do they appear listless and less inactive than usual? Do they spend most of their time hiding? Are they eating like they normally do? Do they have any visible signs of disease like ick, fin rot, velvet, etc.,? Sometimes things happen at a molecular or microscopic level with water and these things are not easy to sense via your normal human senses, so the water may look and smell right but it may not be. For example, your tank could have a dangerous ammonia or nitrite spike and the water may look crystal clear and have no smell. If you throw a fish in their it could end up belly up in no time. You could have gill flukes that may be spread from a diseased fish, but you may never know until a fish suddenly dies eventhough the water appears crystal clear and has no funny smell. You could easily end up deceived that is why it is important to keep a close eye on your fish and look for things out of the ordinary. Fish cannot speak but their behaviour can sometimes easily communicate when something is not right with their environment. Think of it as the fish equivalent of non-verbal communication or sign language.

***Edit IMHO if you wait to the point where your water smells or looks really bad eventhough your fish are alive, to do a water change, then you may have waited *too long* to do a water change and there may be a chain reaction in play where the forces of destruction and turmoil may already be in play. This once happened to me in a 2.5 gallon tank that was doing really well and when it happened the damage was so great that doing a series of water changes could not fix the problem. The tank kept smelling like a sewer and I had to tear it down. The plants never recovered. Luckily, there were no fish in there***


----------



## rich_one

This is one of the most intriguing threads I have ever read on any forum. why? I am a discus keeper. I recently had a disaster, however, during a water change, that wiped them all out, but one. obviously, not happy about that. but I made the mistake, and I own it, and have moved on. I will be acquiring more after the new year.

so… just a brief bit of background here…

I have been in this hobby since 1990. I have made a million mistakes over the years… but now, I fancy myself a pretty good hobbyist. however, something was lacking. plants. I was never good at it. they always died. lack of research, of course… the thing that usually is all of our undoing. so, after having done more, I am trying again, in my rainbow tank. it has now been planted for about two weeks. it is "low tech". I am using nothing special at all. not even lights. now, I do know I need to upgrade that a little. I do plan on getting a NO T5… not an HO. these plants are just planted in gravel. but this tank has been established for nearly two years now. I can already tell my anubias seems to be recovering, as initially, some leaves turned partially brown, and one of them even melted or something. but it seems to be recovering. one of my wisteria stems is looking great. the others, not so great, but not so bad either. my java fern has perked up nicely, after looking rather bad when I first put it in. and the jungle val still looks good… which I am surprised at a little… I only have a standard 40 watt bulb on this tank, and was expecting more casulties by now. I won't be upgrading the light for about another week or two… but that's neither here nor there.

what I am getting at is, in my discus tank, is a substrate of pool filter sand. thanks to some algae growth, it is not a pretty as it once was… but doesn't really bother me too much. I have wanted to change this tank into a planted tank, however, and get more discus. I plan to get adult discus, due to this whole issue of "stunted growth". I feed my discus twice daily… flakes in the morning, bloodworms in the evening. I do notice that my marboro red has not grown much in some time… but that, and probably is, due to no plants? I do 50% water changes weekly on that tank… and 25% water change every two weeks on my rainbow tank.

being new to planted tanks, I have been haunting this site for a few weeks now, and have made an occasional post here and there. but this thread is most intriguing, with talk of not only no water changes, but none for discus as well? on another forum, I created a long and highly followed thread called "The Great Discus Experiment." In this thread, I went to great lengths to attempt to either prove or debunk many "discus myths", while trying to help remove what I had, for others… the fear of trying such a beautiful fish, because of all the myths. I was successful, until my uh… water change mishap several weeks ago. since then, it has not been good going.

moving forward, my discus tank is up for a revamping after the holidays. currently, it is a 55 gal. tank, runing a rena xp2 and a penguin… uh… 300, I think? my rainbow tank is running an emperor filter (I forget the model… had this thing for many years now… I think 7 or 8 years now), and an AquaClear 50, I think it is.

forgive my long ramble… I am just trying to give you all an idea of where I am now, in this hobby. I do not know if I am headed to the "NPT" correctly or not… but I am definitely not only going to continue to research this with all the great information on this site… but I will watch this thread and this forum especially, as I move toward the "renovating", if you will, of my discus tank. my goal is to indeed have two planted tanks, that do not require CO2 injections, and ferts, and all this other stuff, if possible (actually, I do have a 45 gallon, soon to be shrimp tank… lol…). based on what I continue to read here, it will definitely help shape the future of my tanks, as I am phasing into what I consider to be "the next level" of this hobby… that being planted tanks.

anyway… thanks for all this info… this is an awesome thread, and I hope I have not wasted too much of anyone's time with my ramble.

so much for being, uh... "brief".


----------



## Brilliant

Hi Rich One,

Your discus do not grow because of poor quality food and too little water changes, not because you are lacking plants. Bare bottom discus keeper has great growth in discus with no plants. I will answer your questions if you want my advice. 

If anyone thinks for one moment that I am anti-planted-tank-discus-person you are dead wrong.  Facts are facts I have stated unbiased truth.

Choosing large adult discus is best for everyone interested in this low/no water change environment. Good luck.



rich_one said:


> This is one of the most intriguing threads I have ever read on any forum. why? I am a discus keeper. I recently had a disaster, however, during a water change, that wiped them all out, but one. obviously, not happy about that. but I made the mistake, and I own it, and have moved on. I will be acquiring more after the new year.
> 
> so&#8230; just a brief bit of background here&#8230;
> 
> I have been in this hobby since 1990. I have made a million mistakes over the years&#8230; but now, I fancy myself a pretty good hobbyist. however, something was lacking. plants. I was never good at it. they always died. lack of research, of course&#8230; the thing that usually is all of our undoing. so, after having done more, I am trying again, in my rainbow tank. it has now been planted for about two weeks. it is "low tech". I am using nothing special at all. not even lights. now, I do know I need to upgrade that a little. I do plan on getting a NO T5&#8230; not an HO. these plants are just planted in gravel. but this tank has been established for nearly two years now. I can already tell my anubias seems to be recovering, as initially, some leaves turned partially brown, and one of them even melted or something. but it seems to be recovering. one of my wisteria stems is looking great. the others, not so great, but not so bad either. my java fern has perked up nicely, after looking rather bad when I first put it in. and the jungle val still looks good&#8230; which I am surprised at a little&#8230; I only have a standard 40 watt bulb on this tank, and was expecting more casulties by now. I won't be upgrading the light for about another week or two&#8230; but that's neither here nor there.
> 
> what I am getting at is, in my discus tank, is a substrate of pool filter sand. thanks to some algae growth, it is not a pretty as it once was&#8230; but doesn't really bother me too much. I have wanted to change this tank into a planted tank, however, and get more discus. I plan to get adult discus, due to this whole issue of "stunted growth". I feed my discus twice daily&#8230; flakes in the morning, bloodworms in the evening. I do notice that my marboro red has not grown much in some time&#8230; but that, and probably is, due to no plants? I do 50% water changes weekly on that tank&#8230; and 25% water change every two weeks on my rainbow tank.
> 
> being new to planted tanks, I have been haunting this site for a few weeks now, and have made an occasional post here and there. but this thread is most intriguing, with talk of not only no water changes, but none for discus as well? on another forum, I created a long and highly followed thread called "The Great Discus Experiment." In this thread, I went to great lengths to attempt to either prove or debunk many "discus myths", while trying to help remove what I had, for others&#8230; the fear of trying such a beautiful fish, because of all the myths. I was successful, until my uh&#8230; water change mishap several weeks ago. since then, it has not been good going.
> 
> moving forward, my discus tank is up for a revamping after the holidays. currently, it is a 55 gal. tank, runing a rena xp2 and a penguin&#8230; uh&#8230; 300, I think? my rainbow tank is running an emperor filter (I forget the model&#8230; had this thing for many years now&#8230; I think 7 or 8 years now), and an AquaClear 50, I think it is.
> 
> forgive my long ramble&#8230; I am just trying to give you all an idea of where I am now, in this hobby. I do not know if I am headed to the "NPT" correctly or not&#8230; but I am definitely not only going to continue to research this with all the great information on this site&#8230; but I will watch this thread and this forum especially, as I move toward the "renovating", if you will, of my discus tank. my goal is to indeed have two planted tanks, that do not require CO2 injections, and ferts, and all this other stuff, if possible (actually, I do have a 45 gallon, soon to be shrimp tank&#8230; lol&#8230. based on what I continue to read here, it will definitely help shape the future of my tanks, as I am phasing into what I consider to be "the next level" of this hobby&#8230; that being planted tanks.
> 
> anyway&#8230; thanks for all this info&#8230; this is an awesome thread, and I hope I have not wasted too much of anyone's time with my ramble.
> 
> so much for being, uh... "brief".


----------



## dwalstad

Here's question I just received about measuring TDS in aquaria:

Any advice you can provide on the forum or here by email would be appreciated regarding softer/acidic water for my Oto breeding experiment. Total Disolved Solids need to be low to allow them to more easily hatch from their eggs from what I've learned. Is there a way to test this in an aquarium? I've only seen this type of test for pools/hot tubs.

I use a conductivity meter, but there are cheaper options available for aquarium hobbyists.

My little gadget measures the electrical conductance of salts (anions and cations like Na+, Cl-, K+, etc) in the water. The more salts in the water, the more the water conducts electricity.

Note that probes for TDS (Total Dissolved Salts) is another way to measure salt levels in water. In general, conductivity is roughly about 2X TDS.


----------



## bartoli

dwalstad said:


> I use a conductivity meter, but there are cheaper options available for aquarium hobbyists.
> 
> My little gadget measures the electrical conductance of salts (anions and cations like Na+, Cl-, K+, etc) in the water. The more salts in the water, the more the water conducts electricity.
> 
> Note that probes for TDS (Total Dissolved Salts) is another way to measure salt levels in water. In general, conductivity is roughly about 2X TDS.


I thought all conductivity meters have a probe. Thus, I was a bit confused on what you called "conductivity meter" versus "probes for TDS". Then when I googled on "tds probe", I came across a "Conductivity/TDS Probe":

http://www.amazon.com/Sper-Scientific-Conductivity-TDS-Probe/dp/B001EUB572


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## goldier

Hi everyone, I’ve been reading this forum during the past 2 weeks. I’ve followed this thread with great interest. There is much insight to learn from these discussions and point of view from different school of thoughts. While I have not tried the El natural approach, my readings on aquatic plants and their role to “clean” the water are confirmed by proof of these working planted aquariums. I could not imagine having discus surviving without changing water at least once a week! Since I am a goldfish fan, I would want such naturally planted aquarium to support goldfish. So my questions for any of you have tried this with goldfish, do you need to change water often as well? Is it possible to have a goldfish aquarium without water change, or infrequent water change at all? Since goldfish produce lots of wastes (which plants can feed on), can the substrate be non-soil medium such as turface or eco-complete, and still follow the Walstad model with under fish stocking? If Mr. Barr and Ms. Walstad are reading, I would appreciate your expert opinions on the issue. Thanks so much.

Wayne


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## Diana K

You can utilize the concepts for just about any species of fish. 

1) Large fish, predators (being fed high protein foods) and some other species seem to produce more than average amounts of ammonia. Nevertheless, start with this basic concept: 
***ALL the nitrogen that enters the tank will end up in one of 2 places: More fish mass (growing fish) or growing plants.*** 
I do not care what convolutions it follows in its path; like those puzzle mazes that you trace with a pencil, you can have great fun trying to figure out all the ins and outs of what eats what and how the protein gets digested and how long it stays in the fish or the bacteria, find some dead ends... 
Skip it all. 
***N in = N out***

2) Set up a big enough set of tanks that the growing plants will equal or more than equal the amount of nitrogen you are adding. It may take a bit of math, if you like doing math, but if the weight of nitrogen you are harvesting from the system (pruning plants) equals the amount of nitrogen you are adding from fish food, then your system is in balance. 
One of the simplest ways to check is to test the NO3. It should be stable, neither rising nor falling over time, but holding steady between about 5-20 ppm. Lower suggests the plants are growing faster, and may be deficient in nitrogen at times. Higher, and the fish (IME) do not seem to be so happy. 

On to details:
Goldfish are notorious for eating plants, and digging them up. You can try the plants that are often suggested as goldfish safe, you can feed the golds plenty of salad, hoping to fill their need for plants that way, or you can set up 2 tanks. One is for the golds and selected plants that they do not destroy (if any) and the other tank is a planted sump with enough light and plants to handle the wastes from the goldfish tank. This system is also used in ponds. The planted area in a pond system is usually planted with plants that grow above the water. The water volume is roughly 10% of the pond volume, (it sure can be more) and the water flows fairly slowly through the planted area. It is often set up as a shallow pond or stream. The plants can be in containers, easier to remove for pruning. This may not be all the filtration or water movement a pond needs, so there may be a separate pump that runs a water fall to increase the aeration and perhaps remove some of the debris. I do not run a separate filter on my pond. I have a planted area, a stream and 2 water falls in the system. The total volume is about 250 gallons, and I have 5 goldfish in the pond. Yes, there are some plants I cannot keep in the goldfish part of the pond, but these plants are safe from the fish in other parts.


----------



## goldier

Thank you Diana for making your points clearly! 

Regarding setting up an auxiliary tank or having a separate planting area, I had thought about this option for the goldies’ dilemma by partitioning a portion of the tank to keep them away from the plants, although at first I would try the plants that goldies generally leave them alone, like hornwort, anacharis, swords…. My experience with hornwort and anacharis was that they grow very fast, so they must draw lots of nutrients from the water. So if such plants are heavily planted, nitrogen balance wouldn’t be an issue, and the same may be said for other macro and micro nutrients in the water column, I guess. You may have read my post earlier about my setup that it would be 120g aquarium with a maximum of 5 fancy goldies. I intend the setup to be low tech, and no CO2 injection. Although with such heavy planting, I would have to turn on the air stone at night so the fish wouldn’t suffocate, because plants stop taking in CO2 and consume O2 at night. And since I will have 8 ft2 of water surface, I will use part of that area to raise duckweed in the aquarium, and use some of it to feed the goldies daily. I read many positive things about duckweed being able to filter the polluted water online, including those studies on PubMed, and so will incorporate them into my setup.

Other factors like pH, water hardiness, etc… I read that plants can have positive effect on water pH by regulating bicarbonate, and absorbing other minerals. I wonder, beside fish waste, the food they eat, and adding water due to evaporation, what else may possibly cause a change in pH over time if I don’t do water change? Or can we say in a balanced eco-system as such, pH remains stable?


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## redbouche

All this stuff can be pretty daunting for a plant noob. Thanks for all the good info, folks.


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## geeks_15

I've been setting up a NPT fishroom (link below in my signature). I've been catching up on this thread and it made me curious about my tank values (I don't test very often). So I tested my 150 gallon and here are my results.

ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0

I must admit, I was surprised. I have been changing the water in this tank about every 4 weeks and it has been about 3 weeks since my last water change. Maybe I can spread those water changes out.


----------



## goldier

geeks_15 said:


> I must admit, I was surprised. I have been changing the water in this tank about every 4 weeks and it has been about 3 weeks since my last water change. Maybe I can spread those water changes out.


Geeks_15, please correct me if this is not correct, I infer that when you changed the water every 4 weeks earlier, you did not test for N values, so what factors influenced your decision to change the water? Nitrogen limits seem to be the main factor to justify a water change for many aquarists for some obvious reasons. But I rarely read about testing the other macro nutrients like P and K. Perhaps those extra tests are more expensive and their values are not significant to affect fish health? It's not like we send a garden soil sample to the local agriculture extension office for a free analysis.


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## geeks_15

A long time ago I started changing water every 2 weeks in my tanks. I've had good success keeping many dwarf cichlids and I've always been consistent with water changes. When I bought Diane's book I decided to try the NPT setup. So as I started my NP tanks I have stuck with my usual every 2 week routine with the intent of spreading the water changes out. I wanted to make sure my plants were growing well before I would depend on them to clean the water. I've started spreading the water changes out, now to 4 weeks. I had planned on testing N levels to try to further spread out water changes. With those N values, I will spread out the water changes further. It is taking me a little time to fully embrace the no water change NPT, because I like to test things and not just believe. I am becoming a believer though.

Normally, I don't test my water much after initial setup. If things are going well, I don't feel the need to test.


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## tonbrencat

I started my NPT about 17 months ago some with dirt from my pasture and a couple with organic potting soil, I have a total of 9 NPT running. Once they settled after a month or two I stopped making water changes, six of these tanks have not had a water change in 11 months and all doing just fine, no fish problems or deaths, lots of reproduction and behaviors that I have never seen in tropical fish. My biggest problem I have now with this type of set up it the massive plant growth and weekly trim/pruning I have to do...so I guess you can't really say that is a true problem...lol......
Love this method and I will never go back.......


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## goldier

That's quite impressive! I guess there's a trade off - either to remove some water or to trim plants, depending on which chore is more pleasurable to do  

Do you use any mechanical filtration in your aquarium at all, or you just let the plants, etc. to filter the water as nature does it?


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## tonbrencat

I do have some filtration but it is more for water movement, filter media is polyfill type stuff I get at the craft department. On my 55g tank the HOB stopped working 4 months ago and I have never fixed it so no water movement at all in that tank and all is fine.
I do top off all the tank weekly, on the 75g and 55g I have to replace about 3-4g a week.
All my tanks are open top so I get better penetration of lights, I also have some natural light from an east window, lights range from 1.5-2.5wpg.
I have never used any ferts, but when I first started them up, I used excel for about 4 doses but some shrimp died and vals melted so I stopped using it and I used Marc Weiss Natural aquarium vital for maybe 4 or 5 doses, couldn't remember to use it so I stopped all together and I couldn't tell if it did anything good or bad anyway...so why do it...lol....
I love messing with my tank so I guess trimming is kinda fun, I just can't bring myself to throw out the plants so everything around my house that hold water has some sort of plants in it waiting for spring so I can put them out in my outside tanks....


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## Cliff Mayes

If the plants use the nitrogen and the fish eat the plants then the nitrogen is still in the system. Is nitrogen that is locked up an eventual hazard?

Goldfish do not produce any more waste than any other very large fish and are primarily vegetarians.

Hornwort is the only plant that those guys don't seem to eat because they ate a bunch of Java Fern and Swords that they left alone for the longest time. I do not know the difference between anacharis and Elodea but the Goldfish seemed to eat the plants, whatever they were, with gusto just as with they did with Duckweed. Small critters can probably see things we cannot so food may very well be in the gravel that they seem to take great joy in re-arranging seemingly looking for food but who knows? Overfeeding Goldfish is probably common.

I have been using half and half black Sand Blasting Grit and Eco Complete for about three years and it seems to be fine. I do water changes on a regular basis.


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## goldier

If I didn’t feed the goldfish for a few days, they would munch on the anacharis, although they would leave the plant alone when given daily feeding. And goldfish also chase after earthworm and mosquito larvae with gusto  and they spend most of their day…eating plants when no live preys are found. 

Nitrogen locked, eventual hazard? Interesting question Cliff. “Yes” would be my answer. Assuming in a close system (with water, fish, plants, bacteria), nitrogen is recycled between the fauna and the flora in the tank. Nitrogen is mostly locked up in fish (flesh, aka amino acid) and the vegetation. That deprives the water the high concentration nitrogen to cause problem for the fish. A hazardous situation can result when the healthy fish or vigorous plants grow too big for their own good, but as usual, with human intervention, that’ll likely not happen.


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