# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Apistogramma species



## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

I bought two young couples of apistogramma sp on an auction this weekend.

female:









male:









They were sold to me as Apistogramma sp "Vielfleck". Anyone knows if that is correct?

Any other info on them? Open breeder/Cave breeder,... Size of adult fish? Water parameters?

Thank you!!!
Sven

[This message was edited by Vicki on Mon September 01 2003 at 06:54 PM.]

[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Wed February 25 2004 at 02:50 AM.]


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

I bought two young couples of apistogramma sp on an auction this weekend.

female:









male:









They were sold to me as Apistogramma sp "Vielfleck". Anyone knows if that is correct?

Any other info on them? Open breeder/Cave breeder,... Size of adult fish? Water parameters?

Thank you!!!
Sven

[This message was edited by Vicki on Mon September 01 2003 at 06:54 PM.]

[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Wed February 25 2004 at 02:50 AM.]


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Very pretty, Sven! Clearly they're quite young fish, I'll bet their coloration and finnage will improve as they grow. My first thought was "borelli" when I saw the picture, the coloration of borelli is quite variable and there are several color morphs. I'd be willing to bet that "veilfleck" is not the scientific name. I'm going to the ACA convention in Cincinnati in a couple of weeks, I'll see what I can find out for you! I'm hoping to pick up some apistos there myself.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

It's entirely possible that's a correct ID. To my knowledge the fish has not been scientifically describe, but it appears to belong to the regani complex. Note that the spelling is indeed "vielfleck," and that borellii have fused rather than sawn dorsal fin membranes. A pretty fish!

 
(Click for pics)


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

You are very right, 2la, and if I could spell I could have found out a lot more about the "vielfleck" species. Sigh&#8230;at any rate, they look like they'll grow up to be beautiful fish if the pictures I saw are any indication.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Thanks for the replies!

Vicki, if you could ask them, i would really appreciate that! 
Apistogramma are the coolest IMO. I hope you will find some really nice ones on the convention.
And you are right, they are quite young (a bit over 1 inch).

2la, i am finding it very pretty fish myself. The picture of the male doesn't really do him justice. A lot more blue in reality.
Can you explain a bit about the regani complex?

Thank you,
Sven

[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Tue July 08 2003 at 02:01 PM.]


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

Apistos are grouped into complexes based on assumed monophylogeny (some may be polyphylogenic) and can be roughly thought of us groups of species with similar morphologic characteristics. Click here for an explanation that I won't attempt to improve upon!

 
(Click for pics)


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Well, Sven, I'm afraid I didn't do much good for you at the ACA Convention, I couldn't find out anything more about the vielfleck. The one guy who probably could have told me was the one I forgot to ask--that was Tony Orso, and I was so excited about my OWN fish I never gave it a thought. I sent him an e-mail tonight, however, to thank him for the fish, and I did remember this time, so hopefully I'll hear back from him. He had eight apisto species at the show, and the ones I settled on were the A. hongsloi, and now I'm kicking myself I waited so long to get my first apistos. I never thought they'd color up so fast, and I was stunned at how beautiful they are. This is one of my males, taken two days after I brought him home.










http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Beautiful fish Vicki, Amazing!! Why can;t I ever find anything up here in Canada that remotely resembles that amazingly colored fish?


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Uh Oh, Vicki's gonna get apisto fever! Welcome to the club

Jack


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2003)

Apistogramma sp. are my future project. Once I buy my house, my fish room will have mostly dwarf cichlids South American/African. 

Please report back with more description of this fish. The coloration is incredible. Do you have a pair. Make sure you breed them.


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

LOL! Too late, Jack, I've already succumbed. It's not a question of "gonna get." I've already spent HOURS watching these fish--aside from their beauty, their behavior is fascinating! They have different colors for every mood, and it's amazing to watch their color changes.

Jay, the hongsloi are part of the Macmasteri group and are cave spawners, according to what I'm told; males reach 8 cm., females 5 cm., and they are somewhat more tolerant of harder water than some of the other dwarfs, which is one reason why I chose them. Besides which, these guys are tank bred and were raised in fairly hard, alkaline water. I FERVENTLY hope I'll wind up with a pair, these are young fish, still fairly small, and I have two females and two males, which is what Tony Orso suggested I start with, and then get rid of the extra male once a pair forms. HAH! I have a huge picture of myself getting rid of EITHER of these guys, they are equally beautiful, although the one in the picture is definitely the alpha male. Even the little females (about an inch long at present, males are about 1-1/2") are very attractive, with lots of red in their fins and a red splotch behind their gills. The ideal situation would be to get two pairs out of this deal, but I'll have to see what happens. Tony Orso is a NJ guy-in fact, I think he's going to be at the NJAS Show as a speaker, will no doubt be selling fish, too. REALLY nice guy, his wife is as nice as can be also.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Vicki,

thanks for thinking of me !!
I hope Tony Orso will know something about them. I still like them very much and i find myself a lot in front of the tank watching the different colors they get.

Especially since a first couple has spawned already







and i only have them for about three to four weeks. Haven't seen the female a lot since sunday, not even for feeding.
The male shows his nicest colours and keeps all intruders at a far distance. Very nice to see







. I will try to make some decent pictures this weekend.

I really like the species you have, Vicki !! We should try to keep a library with all different pictures of Apistos! With all the color strains going around for different species it would make life a lot easier trying to identify all these interesting fishes.

I have bought the Mergus Cichlid atlas. I recommend this book if you are into Apisto species (in fact all South American dwarf cichlids).

Sven


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

I have found this picture very interesting to get insights in the big apisto family (www.apistogramma.net , a German site):










Sven

[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Wed February 25 2004 at 02:51 AM.]


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Vicki:
> Tony Orso is a NJ guy-in fact, I think he's going to be at the NJAS Show as a speaker, will no doubt be selling fish, too.


Wow. I didn't know that. I might have to catch him at the show. I will be there on friday/sat/sun putting stuff together with other members.

Are you coming ?


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Jay, I would LOVE to come, but I kind of shot my wad--money and vacation wise--at the ACA. I know it will be a great show, and I may try to make it next year--it would be nice to see my old stomping grounds again!

Sven, I think that's a good idea about an apisto library, I know several of us have apistos and some good pix as well. I'll start a new sticky topic for apisto pictures, I think that would be helpful for anyone interested. You know, I bought mine on faith and based on the pictures I had seen--when they were in the tank at the show, they were just little grey fish with a hint of yellow on a couple of them, but Tony impressed me, and they looked nice and healthy, no frays or chunks missing. It would be nice for people to be able to see ahead of time what the potential is for these wonderful little fish.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Vicki:
> Jay, I would LOVE to come, but I kind of shot my wad--money and vacation wise--at the ACA. I know it will be a great show, and I may try to make it next year--it would be nice to see my old stomping grounds again!


What do you mean by old stomping grounds ? Are you from Jersey ?

This is the only 50th anniversary of NJAS club. There will be no 50th next year


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Yes, didn't I ever tell you that? Born and raised in Belleville, just north of Newark. Headed out west after I got married.

Heck, can't you have a 51st anniversary celebration? There will still be a show next year, right?

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

almost a month has passed now.
This is how they are looking at the moment:
Two pictures of the male:


















And the female



































Sven

[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Wed February 25 2004 at 02:52 AM.]


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Sven, you have BABIES!!! Congratulations! Wow, the female is gorgeous, the male too; they are such pretty little fish! Gosh, I sure hope I can do that well with mine in a month's time!

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Yep, i have babies








It is so exciting! I guess this apisto is a very small species. I just thought they were young, but obviously they are adults. I had two pairs. The second female spawned yesterday with the same male but the male has returned now to the first female and helps her guarding the breeding place. The second male gets chased all around, need to find a new home for him...

Sven

[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Tue August 05 2003 at 04:37 AM.]


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Ok, dumb question time.... what sort of water do these fish require. I perked up at the mention of hard and alkaline. I've got one big empty 59G tank and one small 10G fishless planted tank that could be put to use for the right fish.


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## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

dwarf cichlids are deceiving. i have had quite a few breed at only half size, esp rams and 'CACATUOIDES' (hehe). i guess they don't live long, so they breed at a very young age, yet contnue to grow. don't be surprised if they continue to grow out sven.

rick


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

anonapersona, there is no such thing as a dumb question









Most of the apistos need acid and soft (sometimes very soft) water. But mine are kept in pH = 6.8, KH=6, GH=10 (with CO2-injection). If they can breed in such hard water, i guess they would be able to do it in slightly alkaline water as well (pH=7.5).
The hongslois that Vicki has is another species that seems to do quite well in harder and alkaline waters. The more available species like borellii, cacatuoides,... will do well in these conditions too. Especially the ones that have been kept and bred in such conditions for several generations.

So set up a tank for these interesting fish, they are so rewarding








Good hunting,
Sven


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

aspen,

i just knew you could do it









The male is about 5cm and the female 4cm. You could be right if they still add another cm or so. We'll see...

Sven


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Oh, Sven, you just made me SO happy! I just figured you had them in the usual soft, acid water! That's almost exactly the water my guys are in, and I've been thinking I'd have to soften it up considerably in order to get viable fry, even though the fish themselves are clearly thriving in the conditions they're in. Maybe I'll give them a little time and see if they can pop out some little ones in the water they have now.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Vicki,
i am glad i did !

I also thought i needed softer and more acid water to breed this little fish. I wanted them to get adult first, but they just couldn't keep things under control


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

I finally managed to get a decent picture of the female hongsloi who's emerged as the dominant girl--she's colored up amazingly in the last few days, there wasn't a trace of yellow a week ago. What do you think, Sven?










P.S. Sorry about the algae on the glass--I haven't cleaned it yet, wanted to to let the bacteria build up since the tank is only three weeks old.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Vicki,

great picture! You've got a very nice species there!

I think it won't take long before she will spawn. She has a heavy belly and the yellow color tells us she is getting ready. Does she have a territory already? They are cave-breeders, but a piece of driftwood will do. I was thinking of putting a coconut shell in the tank in a few months to try to breed them, but it wasn't necessary. They were happy the way it was and used the driftwood. Is she inviting the male to come to her little space yet? When you see this, it won't take long anymore.

I hope you'll be able to take some pictures of the eggs. I can't see mine, they have both chosen a place where i can't see anything (no pictures







). And the female doesn't come out of the cave before the babies are freeswimming, not even when I feed the fish. The babies were freeswimming after 9 days, but all depends on temperature (it was hot here the last few weeks, tank was around 30°C the whole period). 
While the female is taking care of the eggs, the male will chase every opponent away from that place. The females only spawn with the alpha male, but he only guards the territory of the alpha female. The other females have to take care of their own. Interesting to see!

update:
There are only 3 babies left of the batch of around 20. I blame the platies for it







, and the filter (they swam past it). But I wasn't prepared for the breeding anyway. I want them to learn to be great parents first. The fry of the second female will be freeswimming tomorrow or the day after that. I hope to take some pictures then too. 
Only thing is, the tank needs a good pruning (completely out of control) but I don't want to disturb the fish too much. Dilemma







!

Sven


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

LOL! I know JUST what you mean! I'm already sorry I put them in a brand new tank, because my usual custom is to fiddle with it and move stuff around and see what works, and I don't want to disturb mine too much either. I'm glad to hear you say that about the female, I thought she was looking eggy and of course the yellow's a good indicator. The female has already claimed the big driftwood cave, and the dominant male chases the other male away--the female takes care of the other female, and she isn't any too civil about it either. I can see I'll have to remove the other male before too long. If she lays the eggs on the stone lying across the driftwood, I might have a shot at getting a picture, we'll see. She has to lay them first! You know, I don't think I've ever had more fun watching fish, and I've had a LOT of fun fish in my time.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

The same for me here, the new aquascape is only a month old and I thought it would be nice to put a new fish in it...

The aquascape isn't ready at all, but the apistos make up for all of that!

I even want more...


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Evolution of the Vielfleck:
When I first got them (for two days):









Two weeks later:









8 weeks later:









[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Wed February 25 2004 at 02:53 AM.]


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2003)

Very nice !!!.

How is the fry ?


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

He's growing into a handsome young man, Sven. I think you need to get serious about raising some fry!!!

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Jay Luto:
> Very nice !!!.
> ...


Haven't got any left, but the last time the female was able to raise a few for more than a week. I didn't feed them and there are a lot of other fish in the tank: 12 platies and 10 cardinals.

But when I will have the time and space, I will surely try to raise them.

Sven


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## Astrid (Sep 20, 2003)

Id like to add some photos of my Apistogramma cacatuoides.


















And finally a female:









[This message was edited by Astrid on Sun December 28 2003 at 06:18 AM.]


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Nice pictures, Astrid. Are they new in your tank?

Happy breeding with them








Sven


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## Astrid (Sep 20, 2003)

Thanks Sven.
These fish are not new. I bought them in August: 2 males and 2 females. When I put them to the community tank, the dominant male chose one female and they started to spawn in a small shelter behind one rock. But in my community tank I have a lot of other fish and also the water is hard there so the eggs were adjudged to death.
By the time the two females died and till today I had only that two males. Today I visited the local fish store and I bought 4 young ladies for my two guys. I have a separated full planted 15 gallon tank in which I want to put one male and two females. I have also found a good sourse of soft water so I want to mix water which will suit to them. Also some peat is in the tank for a month but it doesnt seem to have any effect to the pH: It is still 8.







But I hope that it will get better by the time.
Now I only have to choose which male to put in that tank: the dominant or no-dominant one? And I also hope that my boys arent too old for such young girls


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## Astrid (Sep 20, 2003)

And a pic of one of the new females:


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## Astrid (Sep 20, 2003)

And one more shot of the male:










And the eggs, if someone is interested:


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Svennovitch:
> Evolution of the Vielfleck:
> ...


today:









[This message was edited by Svennovitch on Wed February 25 2004 at 02:54 AM.]


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## mm12463 (Mar 5, 2004)

Damn that is a beautiful apisto. Nice shot too.
Did you ever find out more info the name your purchased them as or what they might really be? Maybe post a pic on Apistogramma.com
Mike
http://fish.silver-fox.us


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

They are supposed to be Apistogramma sp 'Vielfleck', but I am no expert.


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## imported_molahs4 (Feb 3, 2003)

Astrid,

Do you know which variety of A.c. that is?

-Scott
tank specs and bad pictures


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2004)

Svennovitch,

He is gorgeous.

I will definitely invest my money for breeding this species.

-------------
Regards,
Jay Luto


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## Astrid (Sep 20, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by molahs4:
> Astrid,
> ...


http://home.earthlink.net/~terra33/
[/QUOTE]
No, I dont. Do you have any idea which variety of Apistogramma cacatuoides it is?


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