# Myriophyllum?



## 2ManyHobbies

I was given this plant labeled Myriophyllum mattogrossense 'red stem'. Anyone ever seen it before or have a better name? Thanks-


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## HeyPK

I am pretty sure it is _Myriophyllum pinnatum_, which has a red-stemmed variety and a green-stemmed variety.


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## 2ManyHobbies

HeyPK said:


> I am pretty sure it is _Myriophyllum pinnatum_, which has a red-stemmed variety and a green-stemmed variety.


Good Start. It does look a bit similar to these:

http://diszhal.info/english/plants/en_Myriophyllum_pinnatum.php


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## HeyPK

Yup! That's it! I used to have it. Definitely not M. mattogrossense.


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## miremonster

I know M. pinnatum as a plant with rather short internodes, the leaves can be whorled as well as alternate.
2ManyHobbie's plant has quite long internodes, and seemingly all leaves are whorled. It looks like my submerged "red-stemmed parrot feather", a somewhat mysterious form of Myriophyllum aquaticum(?). It's frequently sold as pond plant, not aquarium plant in Germany, mostly as "Myriophyllum brasiliens*is*" or erroneously as "M. verticillatum", while the bigger normal form of M. aquaticum is mostly labelled with the accepted botanical name. Apart from the stem colour, under same conditions the red-stemmed form differs i.a. by lower number of leaf segments. Emersed leaves also blue-green and water-repellent.
Pics from the www: 
http://www.knuppernursery.com/aquatics-gallery/myriophyllum-brasiliensis.php
http://mikesgardentop5plants.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/floater5.jpg
There's also a variety of M. aquaticum from Santa Catarina (Brazil) that is similar in size but light green, newly described by Christel Kasselmann as M. aquaticum var. santacatarinense:
http://www.flowgrow.de/pflanzen/Myriophyllum-aquaticum-Santa-Catarina-422.html


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## 2ManyHobbies

Huh- I don't know what to think. The plant has four nodes all offset from each other. The leave are quite long. The plants grows like an absolute weed. I need to think harder!


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## HeyPK

Here is a picture of _Myriophyllum aquaticum_ grown submersed. It does not look very much like the one that 2manyhobbies has. I have collected the red-stemmed version of _M. pinnatum_ in Florida, and it looks a lot more like it.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Nice graduated cylinder!


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## miremonster

[error, please delete my posting]


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## miremonster

@Paul: Maybe I'm wrong, and 2ManyHobbies's plant is indeed M. pinnatum. But the submerged form of the Red Stemmed Parrot's Feather looks also very much like his plant and differs markedly from submerged normal M. aquaticum.
Here a pic, the plant is grown under moderate to low light:
http://www.flowgrow.de/pflanzen/Myriophyllum-aquaticum-Red-Stem-515.html

@2ManyHobbies: How long are the internodes in the lower parts of the stems?
The emersed form would be interesting (blue green water-repellent leaves?)


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## HeyPK

One way we could resolve this is to get 2ManyHobbies to grow a bit of it emersed. It should show the characteristic blue-green of M. aquaticum. How about it, 2ManyHobbies? I know you are a fan of science because of your admiration of my graduated cylinder, so I know you will do it in the interests of science.


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## 2ManyHobbies

HeyPK said:


> One way we could resolve this is to get 2ManyHobbies to grow a bit of it emersed. It should show the characteristic blue-green of M. aquaticum. How about it, 2ManyHobbies? I know you are a fan of science because of your admiration of my graduated cylinder, so I know you will do it in the interests of science.


Haha- Not to brag, but does a PhD in chemistry count?

How does one take a submersed plant and start it emersed? I don't supposed I can take a rooted stems and plant it in some potting soil and stick it in a window?

I imagine that the saggitaria is one thing but the myriophyllum could be quite another. Up here in the great white north the sunrises at 7:50 are going to start coming earlier starting January 4th! So...sun is at a premium. AND warmth!!


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## HeyPK

phD in chemistry??? Maybe a little bit

I recommend a glass jar with about an inch of soil covered with an inch of water. Put it on a windowsill where it can get some sun, if possible. If it is _M. aquaticum_ it will soon develop some emersed growth. If it is _M. pinnatum_, it will be much more reluctant to produce emersed growth, and, if it does, the leaves won't be blue green.


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## 2ManyHobbies

HeyPK said:


> phD in chemistry??? Maybe a little bit
> 
> I recommend a glass jar with about an inch of soil covered with an inch of water. Put it on a windowsill where it can get some sun, if possible. If it is _M. aquaticum_ it will soon develop some emersed growth. If it is _M. pinnatum_, it will be much more reluctant to produce emersed growth, and, if it does, the leaves won't be blue green.


OK- that might work. Will that also work for the Saggitaria?

I have have grown the M. aquaticum before and it does look similar except for the red stem. There was a nice picture of the M. aquaticum on the cover of the latest TAG. I will have to get that started soon. Stay tuned!


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## miremonster

"Myriophyllum matogrossensis, Red-Stem Milfoil": http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_myriored.php
@2ManyHobbies: possibly from the same source as Your plant?



> Will that also work for the Saggitaria?


Yes, if it gets much nutrients and light. I think, it will flower rather in the summer under long-day conditions.


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## HeyPK

The best way to get a plant to switch from submersed growth to emersed growth, assuming it is capable of making the switch, is to lower the water level to a point where the plant can break through the surface. Suddenly switching the plant to terrestrial conditions may kill it.


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## miremonster

Me again...
Paper about Myriophyllum systematics, Moody & Les 2010: http://www.eeb.uconn.edu/people/les/Manuscript_Files/Syst_Bot_35(121)[2010].pdf
Quote from p. 129:


> Myriophyllum sect. Pectinatum also includes two taxa ( M . sp. "red 1" and M . sp. "red 2") that cannot be identified using any current taxonomic resource. These taxa were acquired from the aquatic plant trade in the U. S. A. (Maine and Washington) and Australia (Queensland) as " M. mattogrossense " or " M. propinquum", often with the common name "feather plant". The taxa are most closely related to M. aquaticum but are highly divergent in both ITS and cpDNA ( Figs. 1-4 ). All nonindigenous Myriophyllum aquaticum specimens collected from geographically diverse locations in North America (Appendix 1) have identical ITS genotypes (they are strictly female plants) that are unique from these two taxa. Although these M. aquaticum -like taxa clearly are distinct at the molecular level, defining them morphologically has remained elusive given that no sexual structures have yet been observed for either.
> ...


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## HeyPK

That is a great article! Thanks!!
Maybe the one I was calling the red pinnatum and the one I got in Florida is actually M. heterophyllum. The green one I have may be the real pinnatum.

M. heterophyllum









My green one


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## miremonster

Hello Paul,
thx, interesting to see these N-American milfoils from the wild. In the latter the crowded and not fully whorled leaf arrangement is visible. Myriophyllums looking like this and the red-stemmed one are in the trade in Germany. According to Kasselmann 2010 M. pinnatum is mostly erroneously sold as M. hippuroides. In the M. pinnatum photo in this book the plant has dark (red?) stems and green leaves, slightly reddish on the top. M. heterophyllum isn't listed there, but I suspect also this species might be in the trade in Europe, because botanists have found introduced M. heterophyllum in waters in Germany.


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## HeyPK

I don't remember where my green Myriophyllum came from. I can't even remember getting it. A lot of the google images for _M. pinnatum_ show all green plants, that look like mine including the image from Florida Aquatic Nurseries. That is my only basis for naming it. I have grown _M. heterophyllum_ and it is red-stemmed with yellow-green foliage. I am pretty sure that what I had was _M. heterophyllum_ based on the pictures of the Center for Aquatic and Invasive Plants, University of Florida. I got my plant from the Rainbow River, Florida.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Bit of an update.

After a few weeks of growing in a souvenir Pat O'Briens glass I finally got the Myriophyllum to grow emergent.










Took quite a while to get some leaves. It is sitting in the window sill. I have found that with all the cloudy days it is really sensitive to the amount of light it gets.

Still working on the Sag...


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## miremonster

Very good!
Apparently somewhat blue-green. Water-repellent -> "Lotus effect"?


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## 2ManyHobbies

miremonster said:


> Very good!
> Apparently somewhat blue-green. Water-repellent -> "Lotus effect"?


Oh yeah- water will not stand on the leaves.

So what does this mean in the big picture?


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## miremonster

As far as I know, blue-green very water-repellent leaves are typical of Myriophyllum aquaticum. That confirms my idea that Your plant is likely one of the cultivated milfoils near M. aquaticum, called Myriophyllum sp. "Red 1" and "Red 2" in the Moody & Les paper, see quote in my posting:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-id/82279-myriophyllum-2.html#post619045
It seems that they mean different plants with Red 1 and 2 but I don't know the differences. Surely also the rather small red-stemmed "Myriophyllum brasiliensis" in the pond plant trade here in Europe is identical to one of these plants.


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## miremonster

p.s.
Here a pic of the red-stemmed "Myriophyllum brasiliensis" in a garden pond:
http://www.flowgrow.de/gallery/image.php?image_id=15370
Thread: http://www.flowgrow.de/teich/pfutzenfieber-therapie-t10638-30.html#p176001
Less dense compared with Your plant in the tank in Your 1st post, but it may depend on conditions. On the right 2 emersed stem tops.

[edit]Addition:
This Myriophyllum aquaticum in Bonito, Brazil, looks interesting to me: http://www.editoramarcelonotare.com/images/Myr.jpg?31
http://www.editoramarcelonotare.com/bonito_67.html


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## 2ManyHobbies

Hmm, so does that mean I should try to get this plant to bloom? Even then can we be sure of the ID?


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## miremonster

Yes, it would be great to get flowers or even fruits of the milfoil. It may be interesting even for the authors of the Myriophyllum systematics paper (see above) who couldn't clarify the identity of their cultivated M. sp. "Red 1" and "Red 2" because of lacking flowers or fruits.


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