# Help for a Classroom El Natural System



## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Hi All:

I am a Head Start teacher to 20 children ages 4 and 5. Two weeks ago we began a el natural "tank" in a large plastic pretzel jar. I added one inch of organic Miracle Grow. Changed the water every day for two weeks. Just added 2 days ago: one Hygro, one Bocapa and one Amazon sword and one Ludwigia . Plan to add 2 fish and one snail next week. Not sure what type of fish. We have fluorescent lighting and heat during the day. We also have huge windows w/lots of sun. I really wanted the class to see the process and they are excited. We are comparing pictures of how the "tank" looked just 2 weeks ago to the somewhat grey now. 
Would love opinions and suggestions. We plan to add 2 fish and one snail.

Thank you


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

is the florescent lighting you are referring to from the classroom? I don't think that light will help that much since it's not the right color of light (kelvin). Either way, sunlight is great for planted aquariums. That is probably too small of a tank for fish, but you if you have a way to monitor the fish's health then you could try.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks for replying. What type of lighting should I get for this type of ecosystem? Some sort of lamp? I really wanted to try to add a Guppy and one snail.


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## Hoody32 (Oct 17, 2012)

I recently went to a middle school open house and the science class was doing ecosystem experiments. They had plastic 2 liter bottles with only dirt as substrate and plants growing as well
As guppies. There was java moss and some other plants. I don't know how long the experiment was going but I only saw one dead fish. I believe there are plants out there that will grow under your conditions. Possibly water wisteria along with the java moss. Java fern might also grow in your class. 

I think this is a great way to get the kids interested in science. Hope they stay interested.


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Looks like your soil isn't capped. Highly recommend a sand cap. Will reduce turbidity. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Cheryl728 said:


> Thanks for replying. What type of lighting should I get for this type of ecosystem? Some sort of lamp? I really wanted to try to add a Guppy and one snail.


I wouldn't add a fish or snail until these plants start growing better.

I am not sure that the sunlight plus overhead ceiling fluorescent lights is enough. A little desk lamp with an ordinary tungsten bulb or fluorescent bulb would work fine. Some light sources are better than others, but honestly, any light source will do. Plants are wonderfully adaptable to light spectra.

In looking at the picture, I would siphon off the water and add new water until the water is not so cloudy. You'll have to rig something up to keep the incoming water from disturbing the soil and add the new water _very_ carefully. A sprinkling of gravel (1/4" deep) to hold the soil down wouldn't hurt, but it is not essential.

You could also reduce the water depth an inch or two temporarily. This will give the plants more access to surface light. (Water, especially this cloudy water, absorbs lots of light and could be holding plants back.) A shallower water depth will also make it easier for oxygen from the air to percolate into the substrate. That 2" layer of water is blocking oxygen and light penetration into your system. Once plants start growing and reach the surface and water clears, you can increase the water depth.

Also, see my newest thread on 'New Tank and Plant Meltdown.'

I think this is a wonderful project for your classroom and children. I will try to follow your thread for next couple weeks.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks for your replies:

Hoody32: I just ordered a "Beginner's Plant Pkg and among the plants are wisteria, java fern. Will put those in on Monday. My students though young ask tons of questions and together we have changed the water, talked about what the plants do, light etc.I really want my students to be interested in science. Believe it or not two of my 5 yr olds will talk about our "ecosystem" to our Open House in late April. Hoping everything is good by then.

GadgetGirl: I put in 1 inch of play sand as a cap.

Dwalstad: Thanks again for telling me about this forum. I will make the water shallow, I will do a water change tomorrow. The kids love helping with this. I bought a second-hand desk lamp and will add the bulb on Monday. I was worried about lighting. My classroom budget is quite low but I still want something decent for my students. I placed about 1 inch of play sand, should I add some gravel as well? 

I will update everyone by the end of next week. Hopefully to show better pictures.

Thanks again for your help.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

In addition I did purchase a mini heater. Over the weekend when school is closed our classroom gets quite cold. Plus I have the jar in the window sill. Should I add the heater?


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

The plants will be fine without the heater, but once you add fish they will feel better with a tiny heater inside of it. Beware though, because some heaters run constantly no matter the temp and with a smaller water volume it will heat it more. How many watts is it? In any case i'd recommend keeping it on only during the night.

just the sand is fine. As for the lighting the bulb doesn't have to be very bright. A CFL light has 2 different wattages written on it, one is the wattage in comparison to incandescent the other is the actual wattage being used. For your project, anything around 10 watts would be alright, and if you get algae you can move the light back more. On a side note, plants do best with the Kelvin being around 6700K (it should say on the bulb), since that has the correct light "color". However referring to Diana's post plants will adapt to whatever light you have. 

btw the java fern grows best with only the roots in the substrate. The part above it is where it produces more leaves (the rhizome) and it won't grow well under the sand. Usually people tie it down to a decoration, but since this tank is bare you will just have to push the roots in a little.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Atc84, I purchased this heater http://www.amazon.com/Hydor-Aquarium-Heater-tanks-gallons/dp/B0006JLPFE. It is a 7.5 W. Really just learning about aquarium plants.

Thank you.


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## Erin C. (May 12, 2005)

Hi Cheryl,

I have been keeping El Natural tanks for many years now. I have one similar to what you have done for your classroom. It is a 4 or 5 gallon jar with a glass lid that I have had running for six months now. I started this as a test to see if I could keep a terrarium of sorts. I have moss and a could of different types of low light plants. I planted and put fish in the same day. I have never had to add water or light and my mollies have done well. Nor do I feed this tank as the mollies eat the algae off of the plants. Just an idea for you if you are wanting something low tech and easy to keep. The heater will be needed if it gets cold in your classroom, like you have been advised. My tank sits on my kitchen counter and gets only indirect light so you can see that it doesn't take much light. You may be able to get away without the light once the plants are established. I have attached a couple of pictures of my little experiment.

I wish you the best of luck and I know how much the kids enjoy this. My two love their aquariums and really like helping me set up new ones. On a side note, we have a 10 tank cap in my house, hubby says it borders on obsession having more than ten, lol.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Cheryl728 said:


> I placed about 1 inch of play sand, should I add some gravel as well?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Please don't add gravel and suffocate your soil bacteria. One inch of sand is more than enough. The deeper the soil cover, the more you block oxygen's entry into the soil layer.
> Glad that you and the kids are having fun with this.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Hi Erin C.:
Thanks so much for sharing your tank. Yes my students love it, in fact, I followed Ms. Walstad's suggestion and took all of the water out save for 2 inches. It is sitting in the sunny window sill. The kids really had another science lesson when I siphoned the water out of the tank and they watched the process. Even my assistant had fun b/c she states she never knew about a "gravel cleaner". I explained/read to them what Dwalstad wrote about and believe it or not asked plenty of questions of of course the most popular question was "When do we get the fish?" Lol.....I will be sharing updates. 

DWalstad: I emptied the jar of all the water except 2 inches. I didn't put the heater in. Just received a plant package to add some on Monday. The students are excited and really following the process. We have picture updates on our Science Center bulletin board. Oh, I did not add any gravel. There is just the sand which I rinsed and let set for a couple of days before I added it to the jar.
Thank you again.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Cheryl728;673994 I placed about 1 inch of play sand said:


> No. A layer of gravel will only increase the barrier for oxygen to enter the substrate. One inch of sand is more than enough.


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## stanjam (Mar 30, 2014)

Sorry, but there is no fish that will stay in that jar without heat or filtration and be healthy. I suggest NOT putting fish without filters. It is promoting bad fishkeeping imo. 

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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Cheryl,

Sorry if to be a wet blanket here but I agree I would not add fish. I don't think that there is any fish that would survive in this set up and I agree with stanjam - it's just not good fish keeping. Once the water quality has improved and the plants are growing robustly perhaps you could consider getting asking your local fish store for some Malaysian trumpet snails. Most fish stores have lots and they will probably give them to you for free. They climb all over and are easy to keep.

In the meantime you may want to refresh your knowledge about this method because I'm a bit worried that you might not have started off on the right foot. I too would love to see this little tank flourish for your class room! They will love it! Here is a website that another forum member put together that is a great summary of this method: http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTank.html

I have done set ups with no water movement or heater with success but you will need lots of robust plants right from the start. I'd recommend another really easy plant that grows excellent root systems which will be important in your setup. It is usually quite readily available - Sagittaria subulata. It is very low maintenance and I've used it for setups like this many times with great success. Also I recommend a stem plant that will grow above the water line like bacopa monnieri.

Hopefully this helps!


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Also, I'm a bit worried the mini heater might not be compatible with the plastic of the jar - I'd skip it if I were you.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Note: Cheryl wants advice on which of these, if any, she should use in her classroom project.

Hi All:

I would like to buy a plant package containing the following plants:

ground cover:
Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae 
Echinodoru tenellus 

middle ground:
Blyxa japonica
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides 
Rotala indica 'green' - (not a common rotala, this is only 3" tall bush)

background:
Heteranthera zosterifolia
Myriophyllum mattogrossense 
Ludwigia repens 
Rotala wallichii 

floater:
Pistia stratiotes 

moss:
Fissidens fontanus
Subwassertang


Elodea and duckweed are not included. I thought I needed those two in any planted tank.

Thanks


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Cheryl, how big IS this jar? The plant package you list, even with only a few of each species, is enough for a 20-30 gallon tank.

And are you asking our advice about the plant package, or are you placing a "want to buy" ad? If the latter, you don't have enough posts to place an ad, and this is the wrong place to do it. I am not trying to be unwelcoming to a new member, but we have rules about ads. Please see the sticky "Read this First!" in the sale forum.

The jar looks like it is one half to one gallon in size. If this is correct, the only animals you should put in it are snails, or maybe a few red cherry shrimp. The heater is a bad idea in such a small container, and the shrimp or snails will not need it anyway.

I understand you wanting to start small, especially for a classroom project. But a medium-small proper aquarium (10-20 gallons) will be much more stable and likely to succeed. And it will be large enough for some small, hardy fish without any elaborate filtration--a simple hang-on-back filter would do nicely.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

No I am not selling these plants. It is a plant pkg I am interested in buying for my aquariums at home. I plan to use some of the plants in the jar at school. Believe it or not there is plant growth on 3 of the plants in the jar. I still have the water level quite low. I have not used the heater. In looking at the thermometer it stays about 72 - 75 degrees probably due to the sun and the nearby radiator. 
I will post pictures of the plant growth this week.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I understand that you are not selling the plants, but wish to buy them. The same rules apply to "want to buy" ads, as apply to "for sale" ads. When you have 25 substantial posts you can place an ad. In the meantime, I must delete your "want to buy" post.

Sorry!


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

I did not list the plants as wanting to buy. These are plants that I just bought and wanted opinions about the plants as far as what I should use in the classroom. That is all.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This has been very confusing. However, I will restore your post, with the note that you want advice on which species, if any, you should use in your classroom project.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

I think your best bet is to put them all in and see which ones work best for your water/soil/light etc. If you notice that a plant is not doing well and is degrading in the bowl I'd remove the degrading sections and see how it plays out. Should be interesting. 

If you haven't bought this plant package yet I'd actually recommend something a bit different. Maybe something that includes Sagittaria subulata, Bacopa monnieri or bacopa compacta, nymphaea lotus or nymphaea stellata, and a floating plant like water lettuce or frogbit. I have also had good success with all the cryptocoryne wendii varieties. These are all fairly easy to grow plants that should do well.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Hi All:

Just want to share an update on the "jar" aquarium. I included 4 pictures. I apologize for the camera which is my cell phone on my next update I will use my camera. I am feeling pretty excited b/c of my determination to make this work. My class is so excited. I moved all plants into a 10 gallon aquarium by Tetra. It has LED lights which I assume are not enough. I also use a 25 Watt lamp. The Hygro is really growing wide and taller. I have Hygro, Bacopa, micro sword, Blyxa Japonica, lawn Marsh Pennywort, rotala (growing fast), star grass,and myrio-phyllum matogros-sense. I am learning the names in fact just purchased the book: "A Fishkeeper's Guide to Aquarium Plants" (recommended by Ms. Walstad). I was doing water changes every day (25%) and now about 25-50% every other day. I use an air stone and poke the soil. I have 3 danios and 3 snails I want to add over the weekend or next week.
I bought the API Freshwater Test Kit, the readings were: 
Nitrate: between 0 - 20
Nitrite: .5
GH : 7.5 - 100
KH: 40
PH 6.8

I also had clear water until a day ago, when I started using Flourish Excel and Flourish Iron. 

Thanks for your help.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

This is starting to look good! I'm glad the kids are enjoying it. I think you have probably already discovered that keeping a 10 gallon is much easier than keeping a bowl. Regarding the lighting - what kind of 25 watt lamp are you using and what type of bulb?


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Thank you Rusalka. Just noticed tiny snails. (I already have 3 mystery snails) not in the tank yet.
The light I am using is a desk lamp with 25W Soft White bulb. The aquarium hood has LED lights but I am sure this is not enough for the plants. I use the lamp for about 4 hours after using the LEDs. Wow trying to keep the cost down, should I buy this type of light http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-...near-Fluorescent-Light-Bulb-429167/203865702# . Also not sure how to remove the hood to add maybe a clamp on light.

When can we add fish? I have 3 mystery snails that I am afraid will eat the plants.

Thanks for your help.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Hey there, 

Yes some mystery snail will eat plants - I'd do some research before adding them, or you could undo all of your hard work!! The tiny snails that are common to planted tanks are usually not a danger to your plants and can even help aerate your soil. If you are able to take a picture I can probably give you an idea of what they are. 

I think your desk lamp should work fine in combo with your LEDs if you are trying to keep costs down. The lamp might even be enough on it's own if you can find a way to position it well. I would recommend switching your bulb to a Cool White CFL. Soft White bulbs tend to have lots of unusable spectrum for plant growth. Aim for 6500K if you can and as many Watt's as your lamp will allow - a 25W CFL will probably be enough for a 10 gallon. 

There are lots of cheap options out there if you'd like to experiment with lighting. You may have to get a bit crafty to figure out how to rig it up. In a past set up I replaced my aquarium hood with a piece of plexiglass and used clamp lamps from Home Depot with cool white CFLs. I had excellent growth with this set up in a 20 gallon - it would probably still be going strong if I hadn't moved. 

How many hours a day in total are the plants getting? I think you mentioned you already have a heater, correct? This will give you a bigger selection of fish to choose from.

I would hold off on fish for another month. It would be ideal to add a few more plants and wait for everything to start filling out some more. It might seem like overkill but having a high plant volume is really one of the main success factors in this style of aquarium. 
Also, if you don't already have one, you should also get an Ammonia test kit if you are going to keep fish. Perhaps there is an Ammonia test already in your API freshwater test kit? I would wait until Ammonia and Nitrates are sitting consistently at zero for at least a couple of weeks before fish. I know the kids are probably very excited for a fish but a sick fish (or worse) might be a bit traumatizing....


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks much Rusulka: 

I plan to buy 2 or 3 clamp on lamps this weekend. I did buy the API test kit. Will update by next week about lighting. Included 5 pictures of the snails in the aquarium.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

That is a ramshorn snail. They can be very pretty, and clean your glass.  Yours looks just like the one i got for the first time also.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Thank you atc84: I thought I was lucky and then I saw them. More and more each day. Happy they do not destroy plants.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

nope, they do nothing to plants contrary to terrestrial snails.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks atc84.

As another update wanted to share the lamp I just added to the tank.


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## Cheryl728 (Feb 2, 2014)

Using the API Freshwater Master Test Kit I got the following readings:

Ammonia 0 ppm

Nitrite 0 ppm

Nitrate 5.0 ppm

I am quite proud. Also lots of new growth from some plants that melted


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