# [Wet Thumb Forum]-DIY gelatine CO2 test continues



## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Test A Knox Blox gelatine recipe 1 cup sugar, 2 pkt gelatine, 2 cup water, chill, 5 1/2 cups water to fill bottle with 1/4 teaspoon yeast, 2 teaspoons baking soda, 2 pinches salt

Test B 1 cup sugar, 7 1/2 cups water to fill bottle, with 1/4 teaspoon yeast, 2 teaspoons baking soda, 2 pinches salt

Data A - at two weeks
0
3
12
8.5
10
9.5
11
9
10
13
12
13
12
11.5
 test continuing into 3rd week

Data B - at two weeks
0
0
1
4.5
9
8
5.5
3.5
4.5
4
3
2.75
2.25
 test discontinued after rate remained below 2.5 bpm over 4 minute test. One cup sugar mix took 3 days to reach a minimum acceptable rate of 3 bpm, ran for 8 days before falling below 3 bpm.

[This message was edited by JamesHoftiezer on Sat April 12 2003 at 04:50 AM.]


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

Very interesting experiment! I've never tried a gelatin yeast recipe but have had a 2 cup sugar mix last well over two weeks. I would try the gelatin mix but I just got a pressurized CO2 system so I don't need to!

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

I know the "standard" DIY recipe uses 2 cups, but the first gelatine test lasted so long I needed to shorten the runs so I could do more tests. That first bottle ran for 7 1/2 weeks (52 days) and I stopped at 4 bpm, IIRC. It had 2 cups of sugar in gelatine, no baking soda or salt. 

The original post is on the old boards under a similar title, gelatine test at 3 1/2 weeks, I think. 

There were several problems with that first run, leaks in the system, no bubble counter in the first weeks. I'm trying to be more "scientific" this time, holding the bottles at constant temperature, measuring materials and keeping better notes. I'm still pretty bad at note keeping, I'm afraid, so I do hope that someone will repeat these to verify that the data is good.

Tests A and B were to establish that gelatine is a better way to use the sugar. Today's value may mark the start of a decline, we'll see over the next few days. But, not too bad for the end of the second week!

I've started test C, being more careful to have all at room temp to begin with. The gelatine to water ratio was smaller in this one, about 25 to 30% gel as the gel cubes took up only 1/3 of the bottle in the slightly bigger 2L bottle, instead of 1/2 or so in the 1.5L bottle, so we'll see if that is important in comparing test A to test C.


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## imported_Rufus (Feb 3, 2003)

Apoligising as this is slightly un-related...I've not heard of salt being used in the DIY mix B4. I understand that baking soda buffers, but what purpose does addition of the NaCl achive? 

Just Curious....

Rufus.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Rufus:
> ...I've not heard of salt being used in the DIY mix B4. I understand that baking soda buffers, but what purpose does addition of the NaCl achive?


Short answer -- I don't know.

Long answer -- It appears that there is salt in the "stablizer" packets in the Hagen/Nutrafin CO2 System, so I've started these tests using some salt along with the baking soda. It appeared to be about 1 teaspoon of baking soda with a few square white salt-like crystals. It tasted like baking soda but saltier than the baking soda I have. I had a hard time guessing how much salt, but looking at the crystals in the packet, I guess it was a pinch. (how's that for scientific?)

"The Joy of Cooking" says that salt is a yeast inhibitor. The Hagen mix has 1 teaspoon of baking soda, 1/8 teaspoon yeast and some salt, to 1/2 cup of sugar and 2 cups of water. Or at least that is what it appears to have, based on how it looks and tastes. There could be other white stuff that I can't see or identify by taste.

So, the use of salt is a huge guess on my part. The first batch of gelatine that I made did not have any and it ran for 52 days on 2 cups of sugar. I really don't know if it makes a difference, it is just where I am beginning. As I go along, I will try to set up a (somewhat) controlled test on the use of salt. Or maybe someone else will, and they will let us know.

In addition, I think that the baking soda is more than a buffer, I think it is a source for carbon... sodium bicarbonate. But, I'm really stupid when it comes to chemistry, so maybe someone who is a brighter bulb than I can explain or refute that.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Ann,

Are you using bread yeast? If so get some wine yeast (Premier Cuvee) and try that I'm using it in my DIY bottle at low room temps (around 60-64) and it works great. Also it will take a lot higher alcohol levels than bread yeast. And it was only $0.65 a pack at the local homebrew store. If you want I can get a pack and mail it to your for testing.

Semper Fi


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

If you can pop it in a regular envelope, I'd be happy to test it. I can mail you back a buck to cover it, I have a P.O.Box from the Plantex you sent. 

If it will involve other shipping costs, maybe I can find it locally. I'm sure there are homebrew places here, but Houston is a big town and "here" can still be a 2 hour drive.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I will try and dig up your address from the Plantex shipment. I will get the yeast next week and mail it to you. It's easy to mail in a standard envelope. I drive right past the homebrew place every night.

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## imported_Rufus (Feb 3, 2003)

Interesting.....so if salt is a yeast inhibitor, perhaps it restricts the growth of the yeast such that it takes longer for the yeast population to reach 'critical mass' as it were - hence making the CO2 production less rapid, and more stable...maybe.
Of course, this is entirely speculation on my part, just the late night ramblings of a tired man







...of course.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Yes, less rapid, more stable would be a good thing, as long as you can live with the slow start and lowered maximum rate.

This salt and baking soda thing started with the Hagen/Nutrafin packets. I'd like to be able to quit buying that for the kits that I have. I have one on the 10G, and this week I tried the baking yeast, sugar, baking soda and pinch of salt and I observe that it is not producing the same as the Hagen mix in the packet. 

I did not get the 6 bubbles per minute that I got at the start with the packages. After one week, the Hagen mix ought to give me 5bpm, but I have 2 bpm! So, there is something wrong with my guess of what is in their mix, for sure. Fortunately the goldfish in that tank doesn't care about higher pH and if I get algae, he will eat it. 

Another thing that has me baffled, is that the bubbles I get with my guess at the Hagen mix are larger than the Hagen mix. The effect of that is that I get 2 bubbles instead of 4. With the Hagen diffuser, that is a bad thing, as only so much CO2 will diffuse in that ramp length. The bigger bubble leaves the ramp still pretty sizable, looks like one whole bubble's worth of CO2 is wasted.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I started my DIY with the wine yeast and even at low house temps I'm getting around 8 bpm right now. And that from a one liter bottle.

I'm really starting to think that the type of yeast is the biggest factor. Most people use bread yeast which is not the ideal type of yeast to use. I'm betting that the Hagen system is using a much different yeast than bread yeast.

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## imported_carpguy (Feb 1, 2003)

The main tank is going to get a friend and they're both going to get a 10 lb. tank in about a week or so. I'm setting up a 10g in the other room which will be staying on a DIY set up, so I'd love to jump into a study of DIY CO2 set ups.

I have a jello mix chilling in the fridge which I'll set up in the morning. I went with a modification of the Jello Jigglers recipe: 2 packs Jello, 1.5 cups of water (about half the recipe, a little extra water). To that I added and additional 1/2 cup of sugar and 1/8 tspn of "yeast nutrient" -- urea and ammonium phosphate. I was wondering if something like that is what made your Hagen mix taste salty? (Its more bitter than anything else, but the thing else it would be is salty).

I went back and read the original thread. A lot of interesting questions. I just started working my way through some of the beermaking and winemaking sites. I'll report back anything interesting that seems to apply to our application.

One angle I want to take a look at is the different yeast species. Rex mentioned Premier Cuvee (saccharomyces bayanus), which is the same species as I'm using for the first round (there are a number of brands). Its described as being fast and as having a high alcohol tolerance. There is another yeast, s. cerevisiae that has a somewhat lower tolerance but is described as a "slow fermenter". I'm wondering which is better suited to our purposes.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by carpguy:
> 
> To that I added and additional 1/2 cup of sugar and 1/8 tspn of "yeast nutrient" -- urea and ammonium phosphate. I was wondering if something like that is what made your Hagen mix taste salty? (Its more bitter than anything else, but the thing else it would be is salty).


Urea and ammonium phosphate! Yes, the package did say not to eat it!!







OK, what I saw looked like salt crystals, square, but what I tasted was saltier than the amount of salt I thought I saw. So, are these things both white? If either could be a fine white powder, then I'd say it is possible.

What it tasted like was very salty baking soda. Not bitter, not like cream of tartare. I read a bit about baking powders and baking soda in the cookbook. Baking powders give off carbon dioxide when combined with liquid or sometimes heat, depending on the variety of baking powder. Some are cream of tartare and tartaric acid and work when combined with liquid, then there are others based on phosphates that are slower, like the double acting baking powder I tasted which uses sodium aluminum sulfate and calcium acid phosphate. Neither was salty enough.

I also note that the Hagen yeast is rod shaped, I think that my bread yeast is not so rod shaped. Now I'm really sorry I gave away the kid's toy microscope a while back -- now I could use it!

I'll be very interested to hear about what you find in the homebrewing info!


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## imported_carpguy (Feb 1, 2003)

I explained to the guy at the homebrew shop what I was trying to do and he was both helpful and skeptical. I tried to explain that this was not my own idea, but a fairly common practice. He explained that his fish breathing provided all the CO2 his plants needed. I didn't push the point.

The Yeast Nutrient I bought is a bag of what probably started as out as tiny white balls. I tasted (did not eat







) one of these and it was more bitter than salty, but salty. Most of them have pulverized into very fine white crystals: these are salty with a slightly bitterish aftertaste, somewhat finer than salt.

I've also found out that winemakers like to push the acidity down very low to discourage harmful bacteria from infecting their must. They like pHs down around 3.8-3.6! Not sure yet what this does to the yeast, but one of the things they use to do this is tartaric acid.

I asked the guy for the yeast that would have the greatest longevity and he picked Champagne yeast, s. bayanus (I got Lavalin EC-1118, but Premier Cuvee is the same species). I've seen this recommended online for DIY, but I'm still interested in trying a few other wine yeasts. The virtue of s. bayanus is that it will tolerate up to 18% alcohol. The bread yeast I've tried (not very successfully) were light brown grains. The champagne yeast are very tiny white rods.

The different yeast species seem to have different temperature tolerances, with lager yeasts doing well down into the 40s. The storeguy thought room temp into the 60s was probably fine but he uses a 15w heat belt on his homebrew vats to keep the temps a little bit higher. I have read in some of the wine articles that the start temperature is important and that anything below 68 can hamper the cultures ability toget itself going, once its up and running it seems less critical. This may have been the problem with your first gelatin bottle. (My jello is now warming on the counter).

The guy also thought that the surface area of the water would be an important factor and advised against going above the curve of the bottle. I've already tried using a 2 liter Powerade bottle (wider and shorter than a soda bottle), and picked up a 1 gallon glass jug with stopper today (a good bit wider again). Don't know how much of an effect this will have, just another variable.


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

Anonapersona, I'd like to let you know that 
I am following your DIY CO2 experiments with
interest. I think this will really go a long
way in helping people with DIY CO2 - or those
that tried and failed.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Ghazanfar Ghori:
> Anonapersona, I'd like to let you know that
> ...


I am so happy to hear that, I have benefited so much from the information posted here that I am really happy to be able to contribute!

I've been really pleased that several people are pitching in to work on the various parts of this topic. I was a bit worried in the beginning, maybe it was presumptious of me as such a novice, to try to present something like this. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by carpguy:
> The Yeast Nutrient I bought is a bag of what probably started as out as tiny white balls. I tasted (did not eat
> ...


Good work! Do me a favor, send me some if it's not too much trouble. I still have a few packets of the Nurtafin stuff,I can compare it side by side to baking soda and the Hagen stuff -- maybe the whole thing is nutrient and not baking soda at all.



> quote:
> 
> I've also found out that winemakers like to push the acidity down very low to discourage harmful bacteria from infecting their must. They like pHs down around 3.8-3.6! Not sure yet what this does to the yeast, but one of the things they use to do this is tartaric acid.


Hmm, tartaric acid. The cookbook says that combined with baking soda and liquid it gives off CO2 immediately. Cream of tartare is what is left in winemaking casks after making wine, according the label. It can be used instead of the baking soda for the same reaction.



> quote:
> 
> I asked the guy for the yeast that would have the greatest longevity and he picked Champagne yeast, s. bayanus (I got Lavalin EC-1118, but Premier Cuvee is the same species). I've seen this recommended online for DIY, but I'm still interested in trying a few other wine yeasts. The virtue of s. bayanus is that it will tolerate up to 18% alcohol. The bread yeast I've tried (not very successfully) were light brown grains. The champagne yeast are very tiny white rods.


White rods, yes, that's what I saw in the packets. I think you are on the right trail.



> quote:
> 
> The different yeast species seem to have different temperature tolerances, with lager yeasts doing well down into the 40s. The storeguy thought room temp into the 60s was probably fine but he uses a 15w heat belt on his homebrew vats to keep the temps a little bit higher. I have read in some of the wine articles that the start temperature is important and that anything below 68 can hamper the cultures ability toget itself going, once its up and running it seems less critical. This may have been the problem with your first gelatin bottle. (My jello is now warming on the counter).


If the rate was great enough, I'd like to try putting the heater that keeps the yeast bottle warm on the same timer as my lights. As long as the yeast can get going rapidly with changing temperatures, and the min temp was above the limit maybe that could prolong the mix and hopefully the maximum rate. Room temp never gets low here.



> quote:
> 
> The guy also thought that the surface area of the water would be an important factor and advised against going above the curve of the bottle. I've already tried using a 2 liter Powerade bottle (wider and shorter than a soda bottle), and picked up a 1 gallon glass jug with stopper today (a good bit wider again). Don't know how much of an effect this will have, just another variable.


I had begun to think that the excess air at the top of the bottle was leading to the frequency of double and triple bubbles that gives the Hagen diffuser such trouble. But, both of my bottles are doing that even with only 1 inch of air space. Maybe it is the long lines. I didn't note what air space, or more importantly, the air surface any of the tests have had, different shaped bottles with large difference in area at that point. I really need a lesson in how conduct a proper experiment!! Maybe I ought to set up a data chart, so I am prompted to write down EVERYTHING. I just realized that I didn't write down how much yeast I used in test C. I might need to dump C and start again. It is doing really badly and it might be less yeast or the water level. Yes, data sheet and a new test C, tomorrow.


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## imported_carpguy (Feb 1, 2003)

There seem to be two different phases for the yeast, an aerobic and an anaerobic. The availability of O2 during the first phase seems to be important. I don't know what signifigance air space or surface area has after that.

There is a bunch of detail about using temps to protect the selected strain and discourage wild yeast. Warmer temps seem to be significant at start up, less so later on.

One article I found mentioned that hard water was better for the startup/rehydration period, but very low pHs are encountered later in the process. I suspect that the baking soda is used to boost hardness for this initial phase.

I did some more research today and it turns out that there are three major fruit acids, malic, citric, and tartaric. Grapes are fairly unique in having tartaric acid as their dominant acid. Any of the three may be added during wine making to adjust acidity.

Still trying to sort this stuff out.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by carpguy:
> There seem to be two different phases for the yeast, an aerobic and an anaerobic. The availability of O2 during the first phase seems to be important. I don't know what signifigance air space or surface area has after that.


I've observed that briefly opening the bottle after it's bubbling will stop it cold for quite a while. You'd think that if air was important in the beginning then we ought to shake it vigorously at the start. (mental note, try a test with that one time.)



> quote:
> 
> There is a bunch of detail about using temps to protect the selected strain and discourage wild yeast. Warmer temps seem to be significant at start up, less so later on.


Wild yeast, cookbook says that bread will capture yeast even if you don't use any yeast in the bread. It's out there, wild yeast!







So, the snot that forms on the line if you don't use a scrubber is probably related to airborne yeast.



> quote:
> 
> One article I found mentioned that hard water was better for the startup/rehydration period, but very low pHs are encountered later in the process. I suspect that the baking soda is used to boost hardness for this initial phase.


Sounds like a pH crash occurs in the wine. The 52 day bottle, before test A, had no baking soda until very near the end but my water is moderately hard. Ah, that explains the way the bottle boiled over when I added baking soda in week 6, acid plus base. Boom.



> quote:
> 
> I did some more research today and it turns out that there are three major fruit acids, malic, citric, and tartaric. Grapes are fairly unique in having tartaric acid as their dominant acid. Any of the three may be added during wine making to adjust acidity.


Do we care about acidity? I mean, we aren't going to drink it. More acid would taste more vinegary? I guess at some point the acid will kill the yeast, or make it go dormant at the bottom or whatever it does, but the alcohol would probably do that first.



> quote:
> 
> Still trying to sort this stuff out.


Ah, yes, and the quest is certainly interesting. Isn't it amazing how everything is so complicated once you really look into it?


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## imported_carpguy (Feb 1, 2003)

Well I just checked the bottle, 18 hours (long day) after adding the starter culture to the main mix: 51 bpm!







I'll post the first week next Sunday along with details of the setup. I'm also goingto post some of the yeast research as a separate thread. I think this is going to be a busy week, but I'll try to add to it next weekend.

As far as the acidity in wine, a lot of that seems to come from the grapes and they want it for taste as well as for bacterial suppression. It also seems to suppress the wild yeast to some extent. I could see the bacteria being a negative, but do we care about the wild yeast? I'm wondering if a wild strain could outcompete our selected alcohol resistant yeast and then die off early in their own juices. I know in wine its a flavor thing and that some brewers actually cultivate wild yeast for certain types of beer and cider. Haven't worked out yet what it means for DIY.

I'm not really sure where the tartaric acid thing came from. I thought you'd originally mentioned baking powder (not soda) and that it was tartaric acid. It comes up a lot in the wine literature. Never heard of it before in conjunction with DIY.

The original setup -- with bread yeast and not as much sugar, much more half-hearted prep -- never did anything like this! I'll see how long it'll go for.


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## Alex (Mar 31, 2004)

Interesting subject, thanks for the effort.

Alex


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

To Rex, I found a Home Brew store locally, so if you haven't mailed the champagne yeast, don't. I dropped in a got some and some yeast nutrient, too. 

I did chat with the guy there about yeast, he pointed out that bread yeast is "selected" for carbon dioxide production, where champagne yeast is selected for alcohol production. So a side by side test of the two yeasts, with no additives, is in order. 

And there is a whole bunch of various yeasts that one could try. There are also different yeast nutrients. I really don't intend to ge to far down that road.

He also said that how you start the yeast was important. Sprinkle the dry yeast on warm water and wait for it to disburse. Then, when it is all murky looking, add a bit of sugar. I know that I was careful to do that with that very first bottle that lasted so long, but I don't think I did that with the others. So, technique may be important.

I think I will be able to collect a bunch of 2 liter bottles this week and turn the empty Q tank into a large warm water bath and bubble counter. Then I can let the fish tanks go without experimentaion, and do a bunch of tests side by side. Now that I have fry in the 29 gallon, I hate to mess with the water too much.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks for the message. I have been home injured the past two days and have not left the house. So of course I have not mailed any yeast yet.

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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

So sorry to hear about your injury, hope you are able to rest and get better. You were going to have busy week anyhow as I recall, double bad.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

It's an old injury. About 24 years old. It flares up every so often. I would not wish a bad back on my worst enemy.

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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Test Data (I will eventually get this in a graph I suppose)

Test A (gelatine w/ baking soda and salt)

Test A
day 15 11 1/2bpm
day 16 11
day 17 9
day 18 9 1/2
day 19 9 1/2
day 20 9
day 21 9 1/2
day 22 7 1/2
Test continuing into 4th week.

Meanwhile, I started test C using gelatine. It is doing very poorly. This test had more water than A, but the gelatine also melted a lot while I had in in a sunny window rather than just on the kitchen counter. The numbers are much more like the sugar test B, or maybe the pinch of salt was just too inexact, also I used iodized salt instead of non-iodized salt. Keeping things the same is really, really difficult. Later today I hopw to pick up many 2 liter bottles to conduct side-by-side tests where I can load everything at the same time and I can stop experimenting on my fish tanks.

Test C bottle 1/3 full of gelatine, 1/2 cup more water, and slightly larger surface area due to different shape bottle that Test A.

Test C
day 1 0bpm
day 2 2
day 3 3 1/2
day 4 3 1/2
day 5 5
day 6 3
day 7 4
day 8 7 1/2
day 9 6
day 10 6 1/2


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Test bottle A with gelatine is still going after 30 days. The rate is still around 5 bpm.

Test C with essentially the same recipe ended after 16 days at 2 1/2 bpm. I can't account for this except to note that test c was more like a thick liquid in bottom of the bottle, the gelatine sat in the window to warm up and melted a lot. Also, the yeast packet I used had been opened in early December for the preliminary gelatine test and had sat in the cabinet all that time. It is also possible that the heater in the warm water bath sat against the bottle when the cat drank water out of the open bucket. That test was poor from the very beginning, I did not submerge it to be certain of no leaks but that system had tested fine in the round before.

I used this same yeast and recipe on test D and that gelatine also melted, this time completely. I returned the mix, yeast and water and all, back to the refrigerator for 10 days as I let test C run longer. That bottle D came out of the cold just fine, totally solid gelatine on the bottom, was stirred thoroughly to break up the gelatine, and is delivering a decent rate now. I've eliminated the heated water.

I've got materials assembled for the next round of testing, bread yeast, champagne yeast, and ale yeast (which looks like the Hagen yeast). I also have one variety of yeast nutrient (which does not look like the Hagen stabelizer). I'm almost ready to begin testing gelatine with the various yeasts, side by side. The first run will be gelatine with yeast only. I've got a better note keeping system set up now, so hopefully I can be certain of the details.

[This message was edited by anonapersona on Sat February 22 2003 at 09:09 PM.]


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Test A

day rate
day 23 7bpm
day 24 5 1/2
day 25 7 1/2
day 26 8
day 27 10 1/2
day 28 7
day 29 4 1/2
day 30 5
testing continues

Test C

day rate
day 11 4 1/2
day 12 3 1/2
day 13 3
day 14 3 1/2
day 15 2 1/2
day 16 2 1/2
test ended


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Test A discontinued on day 30 at 5 bpm rate.

Test D using yeast that had been opened for 3 months and not refrigerated discontinued after 3 weeks at 2 bpm final rate.

Test E started with gelatine, 1/2 teaspoon wine yeast, 1 teaspoon yeast nutrient, 1 teaspoon baking soda (addded after the mix refused to bubble for several hours)
Day 1 started bubbling after adding baking soda and keeping on top of lights for heat.
Day 2 foamed over in morning, most of foam caught by bubble counter. Rinsed counter and lines, removed 1/2 cup of liquid and some floating gelatine. Foamed over again, cleaned the counter and the lines again, removed another 1/2 cup of liquid trying not to lose gelatine. Foamed over again, noted the bubbles are sticky and thick and look like they would keep structure no matter how far the liquid was from the exit line. Got mad, dumped more than half the water, added tap water and 1 teaspoon baking soda. Hope the yeast can multiply, no telling how much sugar was lost -- this test will be invalid for duration but at least the CO2 is going again. Rate 12 bpm compared to 20 bpm before dumping so much liquid. Reactor bubbling like a son-of-a-gun. 

The "yeast nutrient" is full of several vitamins as well as some types of phosphates. I think the vitamins created the stickyness that made the bubble foam so thick and stable. I will try this again, with the gelatine solid in the bottom of the bottle instead of cubed. But, I don't think it was the gelatine, I think it was the nutrient.

All yeast is now kept in the refrigerator after opening, clipped closed and then in a ziplock bag. This probably was the cause of the failure of Test C that died after 16 days -- old yeast.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Tests F, G, and H all neglected when I was out of town, twice. F and G were of solid gelatine, with ale or wine yeast and baking soda. both did so badly that I added some yeast nutrient after a few days, they did better, but not well. Failed sometime while I was gone, but revived with a "dump and refresh" of half the liquid. Test H, in a Hagen bottle was unable to repeat the great result I got the first time with ale yeast, nutrient and baking soda. I've been not washing the bottle, saving the goo from the earlier bottle, the result is that I don't really know what the main yeast is that is active. Might have been the left over bread yeast. 

I'm starting to wonder if bread yeast likes base while brewer yeasts like acid. Could you use half of each and have a blend that keeps going from a high baking soda environment to a high acid environment?


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## aquaTony (Apr 5, 2003)

Anonapersona,

I've been following this tread with quite some interest. One thing that I am a bit confused about is your rate of bubbles. The highest bubble rate that I have seen in your posts seem to be about 10-15 bubbles per minute. Is that correct? 

I have a 46 gallon tank with 2 DIY gelatine setups and I get about 30 bubbles per minute. I still beleive that I am not getting enough CO2. I'm just wondering what your target is for your bubble rate. 

I've been playing with DIY gelatine for about a month now. I like it because I can easily get a sense of how much sugar is left in the bottle. I've been extrememly busy at work lately, but I hope to do some experiements like yours over the next couple of months.

Thanks,
Tony


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by aquaTony:
> Anonapersona,
> ...


These experiments have been done with gelatine mixes that have only 1 cup of sugar in the bottle. The very first test, not documented very well, ran for 52 days using twice the gelatine I am now using and no baking soda, salt, or nutrient. The max rate on that was well over 30 bpm, and when leaks in the system were solved I got over 30 bpm in the 2nd or 3rd week, IIRC. So, the max rate and lenght of production is directly related to the volumes used.

For these experiments, I have gone to half size mixes, to try to get more tests done. I keep thinking that one day when I've decided exactly what mix is best, then I'll go back to a larger bottle and quit messing around with this, but I keep finding one more thing to tinker with.

Since my light levels are not high at 1.9 wpg, CO2 levels are not as critical for me as for those with "faster" tanks. With the HOB filters I have, I never got more than 6 to 12 ppm CO2, regardless of the bubble rate, as far as I can tell. I just changed over to a canister filter on the main tank, but I've been away a lot these past weeks and so I have no idea right now even how many fish I have, much less how the CO2 is going! (Just got in a few hours ago.) I expect that the loss of CO2 will be less and so the in-tank CO2 should be better.

I have been quite surprised at how low the bubble rate can go and still the pH remains stable. With the DIY mini-vortex reactor which holds bubbles until dissolution, I don't see the pH rise until the bubble rate gets down to 3 bpm. How my plants bubble seems to be more a fertilization issue than a CO2 issue. Even at these moderate levels, I see the top half of the tank bubble for most of the week, sometimes all the week.


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## tuvia (Apr 19, 2003)

hi i followed this tread but still havent figuered out the recepy can you explain it to me, i have a 5 liter bottle and im using bread yeast and sugar.
thank you 
tuvia


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Tony, I counted 5 bpm this morning and with KH=8 and pH=7.1, the chart in the library here tells me I have about 20 ppm CO2. That's better than I ever got with the HOB filters, especially at such a low rate. Normally I'd see the pH at 7.6, so I suppose that I would consider this my target. I am actually surprised that I can get that much of a pH change, from 8.2 to 7.1. This bottle started with gelatine, 1/4 teaspoon wine yeast, 1/4 teaspoon yeast nutrient, no baking soda. originally I used only 1/4 of the 4 packet pan of gelatine, so the generator had only 1/2 cup of sugar and 6 cups water, but when I got back fromout of town the rate was so low I opened it up and added the other 1/4 of the pan of gelatine. 

Tuvia, first, can you obtain Knox brand gelatine powder? The recipe starts with that. If you have something different, tell me about it and I can try to adjust the recipe to use what you have available. If you have Knox, then make Knox Blocks listed on the back of the box but instead of 3 cups of fruit juice, use 3 cups of water with 2 cups of sugar, and 4 packets of Knox. Mix, chill overnight in a pan, then cut into blocks to fit the bottle that you use. I use 1/2 of the pan of gelatine in a 2 liter bottle, you could probably use the entire pan in a 5 liter bottle. With bread yeast, I add 1/4 teaspoon bread yeast to 1 cup warm water, let it sit for 10 minutes, add a pinch of sugar to get the yeast going. You could use 1/2 teaspoon I guess, in 2 cups of water. To the bottle, I add 4 to 6 cups of warm water, then 2 teaspoons baking soda. You might use 4 teaspoons in 8 cups of water. Then add the yeast, then fill the bottle to a few inches from the top. I place it on top of the light fixture on the tank, for gentle heat, and hook it up. If water has siphoned into the line, pick it up and lay it on the tank top to help it drain. Then watch to see the gas begin pushing the water through the line. You should see movement in just 30 minutes or so, especially if you let the gelatine come to room temperature first. Temperature is important, room temp here is near 78 degrees to 80 degrees, in winter, at 68 degrees it is slower.

Watch your PH for the first few days, and the fish too. That is a big bottle and you could hurt your fish if you get too much CO2. See the CO2 chart in the library here for the range of pH you would like and what would be a danger level.


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## aquaTony (Apr 5, 2003)

anonapersona,

Thanks for your reply.

I hope to post what I am experimenting with soon, work is too busy right now.

Later,
Tony


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## tuvia (Apr 19, 2003)

hi anonapersona i have found some kind of gelatine it said that it is out of fish is it o.k?
("Unflavoured fish gelatine")


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by tuvia:
> hi anonapersona i have found some kind of gelatine it said that it is out of fish is it o.k?
> ("Unflavoured fish gelatine")


I do not know, my gelatine says that it contains powdered gelatine and does not say what it is made from. The Knox gelatine is used to make pies and jello and there are pictures of these things on the box.

I think that fish gelatine might be used in making aspic -- yes, my cookbook says that this is the same. When making an aspic (a molded gelatine salad containing vegetables, eggs, and/or seafoods) my cookbook says that the package of gelatine (= 1 tablespoon of gelatine) is used with 1.75 to 2 cups of liquid. I am using a stronger mix, 1 package to 1 cup of liquid. So, you can try both and see how they work, one will be firm and probably have a lower bubble rate and last longer, the other will probably be faster and stronger but not last as long.

Because each tank is different, with different generator sizes, different water conditions, different reactor efficencies, you will just have to try different mixes to see what it takes to get a rate that is as high as you need, but not too high, and lasts long enough.

It seems that bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) is necessary, but I think that the bread yeast tolerates this better than the wine and ale yeast. So, I suggest you make the gelatine and make a rather large batch using 4 packets of gelatine, 2 cups of sugar, and 4 cups of water total. Cut this into cubes that will fit into your bottle. Now, use only half of this at first, to see how it works and what the pH change is in your tank. I suggest 1/4 teaspoon bread yeast and 2 teaspoons baking soda and 6 cups of water. Double this and you will get nearly double the rate but it is better to use less now then add more later!

And always start new bottles in the morning, while the lights are on, so the plants have a chance to make lots of oxygen before nightfall.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Oh, I strongly reccommend that you have a bubble counter between the generator bottle and the tank. It is very useful to know how much CO2 is going into the tank, I can look at the counter and know that at this rate I have enough (or not enough) CO2 without having to test the water for KH and pH directly.


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## tuvia (Apr 19, 2003)

yea i know its important i have dennerle diffuser flipper you can see how much bubbles:

http://www.dennerle.de/technik/co2syste.htm


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## bishop (Feb 10, 2004)

I came across this message and setup a CO2 generator using the idea.

Using 2.5 cups of sugar in 2 cups of water solidified in the bottom of a 2l bottle; then mixing 5 cups of water with 1/2 tbs of yeast (activated as if for bread), 1tbs of sugar, 1 pinch of salt, and 1tbs of baking soda it has worked fantastically.

Within 24hours it started producing gas at an average of 10bbm and in 48hours it was at about 20bbm. It is still running strong and the yeast hasn't even begun processing into the gelatine beyond about 1/4 inch. 

Thanks for the informative post!


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

I have since stopped using the salt. Try that next time and report if you notice any difference.


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## Wally (Aug 31, 2003)

I have had this idea for quite a while now, but have never tried it. Since you guys are in the "experimental" mode maybe you can.

A while ago I saw a show on the History Channel about how they make whiskey, burbon, and moonshine. The ingredients for moon shine were easy. Cornmeal, sugar, water and yeast. This mixture gives you very high alcohol content even before it gets distilled. The interesting thing about it, was that when fermentation slowed down they just added more sugar and got more fermentation.

I always thought that the yeast they used was special, but after reading this thread I am wondering if its something in the corn meal?

Just an idea

*Don't feel like Satan, but I am to them...*


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## imported_Piscesgirl (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm glad that I came upon this thread (haven't finished reading it), but I had posted a question in another forum about what is in Hagen's stabilizer packet and I know I smelled ammonia, or something close to ammonia. I'm surprised ya'll tasted it!! ughghhh! (I smell everything, including, stupid me, a good strong whiff of the hydrogen sulfide from under an ornament I had removed from my tank). It's just natural for me to smell. 

So, I'm going to read the rest of the thread, but how do we add ammonia or whatever that is for yeast nutrient, on our own? Sorry if it is already in this thread.


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## imported_Piscesgirl (Feb 19, 2004)

Also, does anyone have access to Agar and have tried that instead of gelatin? (long story, but I would prefer to use Agar than gelatin). I think it should, because don't they use Agar in labs?


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## bishop (Feb 10, 2004)

I just thought I would give an update. I'm still using the original bottle, after about the first 3 days the unit kicked into gear; 

I get 60bpm or 1bps consistantly; the yeast has eaten about 1/3 of the way through the gelatine. If I move the bottle around it will flood CO2 into the tank at about 300bpm for a few minutes.

At this point I am debating about using a pressure switch to regulate the CO2 from the pop bottle to a peristaltic pump to move the CO2 to a pressurized bottle to run a sintered glass atomizer. (possibly more for fun than anything)

Has anyone tried to use an sintered glass atomizer or a membrane diffuser with a DIY co2 system? How much pressure does it usually take?


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Bishop, glad to see it is working well for you at 14 days. I've never tried sintered glass, or rather when I tried a sintered glass airstone I was still not using a bubble counter/scrubber and it fouled with "yeast snot", so somewhere along the way I put in a DIY reactor patterned on the Plantguild power reactor and never actually used the airstone again since it was too long to use inside the reactor -- that airline is just open inside the reactor. The water pump on that does create some back pressure but I cannot compare that to the glass diffusers.


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## bishop (Feb 10, 2004)

I have a ceramic air stone at the moment, it's ~2", I don't recall who makes it, but it's a $4 airstone I picked up at petsmart. I don't want to go to an active reactor using a powerhead so I'm playing with the idea of trying a sintered glass or ceramic disk atomizer to decrease the bubble size. 

The bubble size that I'm getting now is about 1/10 - 1/100mm but I'd like to see micron sized bubbles produced. Especially after seeing the results from the Japanese diffuser in the gallery photos.


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