# Algae Issue :(



## Bubbs (May 31, 2007)

My 2.5ft tank is suffering from a major algae problem. I have brown sludge forming between the glass and the gravel and over some of my plants and some fuzzy stuff on the chain swords. There is also some green spot algae on the anubias which I think is quite normal as they are slow growers but noticed some of the anubias leaves are getting black algae that is as tough as green spot algae to remove. 

Here are some specs on my tank, 
Size: approx. 120litres. NO c02
Lighting: 2 x T8 fluroesent tubes 18 watt each (1x plant grow tube and 1 x normal daylight tube cool white)
Substrate: Plain gravel 2-3mm size with clay balls under heavy root feeders
Ferts: Every 3rd day Potassium, Flourish Excel. Once a week - Flourish. At water changes - Iron
Water changes of 40-50% every 2 weeks through gravel vac. 
Nitrate: less than 10mg/l
kh: 7
gh: 8
ph: 8
Tank load: 6 Rainbows, 1 bristlenose and 1 blue ram (fed twice a day)
PLants: Hygros, blue stricta, several anubias nana and afzellii, java ferns, crypts, vals and chain sword which has stop sending out runners. 
My tank has been running for over half a year now and algae issues started a few months back. This is my first planted tank and I thought brown sludge or diatom occured in new setups? e.g the first couple of months. I'm abit lost as to what I'm doing wrong or what is out of balance. Can anyone give me some advice on how to correct the problem?


----------



## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

Since you're already adding potassium and evidently have nitrate readings, maybe you are missing phosphate.


----------



## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Does your tank contain snails? What kind or kinds? Has the snail population declined recently? When I get algae that sounds like what you have---brown sludge and fuzz, especially soft fuzz that snails ought to be able to eat, I find that my snail population has declined and that the reason for the decline is not enough iron. Try increasing your iron additions by three or four times. If I am right, your snails should make a come-back and clean up the algae in a few weeks.


----------



## Bubbs (May 31, 2007)

Hi
thanks for the replies, I don't have any snails in the tank only fish.
Could it be excess iron rather than lack? Maybe leaching from the substrate?


----------



## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

I would put my bet on some kind of deficiency. Especially considering that you are getting more than one type of algae. It's hard to get too much of something to hurt your plants, but it's easy to get not enough, especially if you're not dosing all your micros and macros. As soon as your plants become deficient in something they are weakened and algae starts setting in.


----------



## Bubbs (May 31, 2007)

I think ur right. There probably is a deficiency beacuse the chain sword and vals have stop sending out runners for the last few months. The question now is which one??? 
There isn't any obvious signs of deficiency except the older leaf of an affzellii tip is turning slightly yellow other than that theres nothing else all other plants are growing well. 
Should I increase the dose of all ferts??


----------



## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

If your tank is over six months old, you may need to change the light bulbs. They tend to weaken about that time. The lower light output makes a better place for diatoms, especially at a little over 1 wpg or 3.33 watts per liter. Even if your lighting hasn't weakened, it might not be enough for the plants but enough for the algae to come in and take hold. Since you have some nitrates, yet aren't adding any, I'd assume that you aren't lacking in other nutrients. You will have more phosphates than nitrates from fish food alone. So, if you have any nitrates, you should have about twice the amount of phosphorous. (Diana's book pg. 80)

Since you are using excel, you may want increase your lighting and try Tom Barrs EI dosing regimen for non-CO2 tanks. He doesn't recommend water changes but rather to take a break in dosing in order to purge excess nutrients. He has a different opinion on allelopathy and iron limitation for algae control but he defends Diana's methods because he's tried them and they work. He won't hesitate to tell that to naysayers either. http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html. Look toward the bottom for recommend dosing for excel dosed tanks.

If I were you though, I'd upgrade the lighting to at least 2-3 wpg or 36-54 watts total. Using excel makes carbon less of a growth-limiting factor for the plants.


----------



## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

Isn't Excel poisonous to vals?

Good point about the lighting too, I didn't catch that.


----------



## Bubbs (May 31, 2007)

Thanks for the link it was an interesting read! I think light is probably one of the issues but I also think I might have a nitrogen deficiency and excess phosphates. After testing for nitrates yesterday I found that nitrate readings have droped to 5mg/l, this was tested prior to a partial waterchange. Noramally I wouldn't do waterchange if the nirates are at a good level but the sight of build up of mulm in the tank was too great to bare. I assume that the hygros are responsible for the drop in nitrates as they are the latest additions. I'm just wondering if this is a good thing that nitrates are dropping? Or a sign of worst things to come?


----------



## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

Carissa1 said:


> Isn't Excel poisonous to vals?
> 
> Good point about the lighting too, I didn't catch that.


It can be. I've used it and killed anacharis with it. I was so excited when I found out about excel because I thought plants needed some kind of carbon fertilization. Now I know that I can see them grow and do fine without. I did see in the Seachem forum that plants can be acclimated to it slowly.

You must be American if you didn't catch that about the lighting.  I learned metric conversion in high school but it's left me from non-use. I used a converter to get his wpg. That's pretty sad, isn't it?


----------



## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

Bubbs said:


> Thanks for the link it was an interesting read! I think light is probably one of the issues but I also think I might have a nitrogen deficiency and excess phosphates. After testing for nitrates yesterday I found that nitrate readings have droped to 5mg/l, this was tested prior to a partial waterchange. Noramally I wouldn't do waterchange if the nirates are at a good level but the sight of build up of mulm in the tank was too great to bare. I assume that the hygros are responsible for the drop in nitrates as they are the latest additions. I'm just wondering if this is a good thing that nitrates are dropping? Or a sign of worst things to come?


Nitrates dropping is a good thing! Plant's will take in excess nutrients. So, if they are taking up the nitrate, they are out of ammonia and nitrite (great for fish) and they will be taking up phosphorous, even excess phosphorous as plants tend to accumulate excess nutrients (wastes/pollutants/toxins/heavy metals) even if they don't use them, *so long as the plants are GROWING!*

The use of excel may (or may not) inhibit or kill the microorganisms that are required for an El Natural tank. It may explain your source of your unbearable mulm build-up.

I wouldn't worry one bit about the hygro. Floating and emergent plants will remove more N and other nutrients than submersed plants, which is desirable in NPTs. But using excel or other carbon ferts is something else.

You posted here so you must have an interest in NPTs. Why not try it 100%?


----------



## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

> I don't have any snails in the tank only fish.
> Could it be excess iron rather than lack? Maybe leaching from the substrate?


Unless you have a brown colored iron precipitate on the glass, you don't have excess iron. I doubt that excess iron would cause an algae outbreak. For me, more iron usually helps keep the algae down, although I have ramshorn snails, and they always benefit from a lot of iron.


----------



## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

HeyPK said:


> Unless you have a brown colored iron precipitate on the glass, you don't have excess iron. I doubt that excess iron would cause an algae outbreak. For me, more iron usually helps keep the algae down, although I have ramshorn snails, and they always benefit from a lot of iron.


Brown colored iron precipitates? What are you saying? I was thinking originally "diatoms" but now am leaning toward mulm as for the brown sludge. If he does have diatoms, you'd have him thinking he has excess iron.

I don't know. Only Bubbs can say. It's up to us to *help* him.


----------



## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

A sign of excess iron is when it accumulates as a brown precipitate on the glass. I have not heard that excess iron causes any problems with plants or fish.


----------



## Bubbs (May 31, 2007)

I don't think the brown thing I have is iron precipitates... the brown sludge is easy to remove and is only appearing between the gravel and the glass and on the plant leaves. However I seem to be getting another algae in my tank, I think its called Black Brush algae.

I think I might need to re think my ferterlizing regime and change my light tubes to see if it works. Thanks for all the suggestions!


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hey, I was reading up on this thread and realized some of this sounded familiar to my recent issue- a lot of mulm practically over night (no, the filter didn't fall in or anything) and a lot of thread algae. My glassostigma also has been dieing back (though everything else is doing fine). My 36-gal. tank is about 6 months old and I bought the 2-55 watt light fixture second hand- I was assured the bulbs had at least a year in them before needing to be changed. 
I don't fertilize and my snail pop. has recently picked up considerably (despite the clown loach). Also, there's an unattractive yellow hue to the water that carbon and water changes hasn't reduced. 

I'm looking to change the bulbs already- anything else I should try for the mulm and yellow color?


----------



## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

> I don't think the brown thing I have is iron precipitates... the brown sludge is easy to remove and is only appearing between the gravel and the glass and on the plant leaves. However I seem to be getting another algae in my tank, I think its called Black Brush algae.


I don't think it is iron precipitates either. I was trying to say that, if you really were adding too much iron, you would be getting a brown precipitate on the glass. I think you are not adding enough iron, and that if you added more, probably quite a bit more, and if you had snails, they would eat up the brown sludge, and probably other types of algae that aren't too 'hard' for snails to eat.


----------



## Bubbs (May 31, 2007)

Emily6 said:


> Hey, I was reading up on this thread and realized some of this sounded familiar to my recent issue- a lot of mulm practically over night (no, the filter didn't fall in or anything) and a lot of thread algae. My glassostigma also has been dieing back (though everything else is doing fine). My 36-gal. tank is about 6 months old and I bought the 2-55 watt light fixture second hand- I was assured the bulbs had at least a year in them before needing to be changed.
> I don't fertilize and my snail pop. has recently picked up considerably (despite the clown loach). Also, there's an unattractive yellow hue to the water that carbon and water changes hasn't reduced.
> 
> I'm looking to change the bulbs already- anything else I should try for the mulm and yellow color?


i don't quite understand this either. I have an Ehiem 2213(?? Can't remember off the top of my head) running on this tank I assumed that would be pretty good filtration for a tank my size. Yet I still get huge build up of mulm on the substrate, when i mean build up of mulm I mean patches of gravel with 1/2cm to 1cm of pure poop. My next theory was that i might be over feeding so I've reduced the feeding to once a day. That only helped a little. Its really poop from my bristlenose mainly. Maybe he is doing his job on the aglae afterall but I just don't see it


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yeah, I can't really tell but mine doesn't really look like poop- it's fairly decomposed. I vacuumed up the really offensive clumps to see if it was just an isolated event or not. I'm still struggling with thread algae on the plants and a little black beard algae on gravel. The tooth brush trick works GREAT with the thread algae but it keeps coming back- I'm thinking of replacing the lights but I'm afraid the lighting is a little strong as it is (close to 4wpg) and brandy new bulbs will enhance the algae. Any thoughts?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 15, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your struggles Bubbs; your story sounds similar to mine.

New to the hobby, I read _alot_ of websites (I really wanted to 'do it right'), and thinking myself somewhat knowledgeable, I went to my nearest LFS. Following their recommendations and the information I had discovered on the web, I started a 29g planted tank in March of this year. Similar to yours, the substrate was gravel (I added a base of flourite beneath - kinda like clay balls, mostly iron I think), the lighting was a moderate 1.9 WPG CF @ 10 hours per day and no natural light, crypts, swords, bacopa, foxtail and hairgrass. My fishload was 6 cardinals & 2 apistos (which became 13 the first time they bred), 4 amano shrimp and lots of Ramshorn snails (they came with the plants). I was using excel, flourish, potassium and iron, on a schedule similar to yours. All seemed well.

In July I began to suffer from a horrendous invasion of staghorn and cladaphora. Back to the web I went, frantically searching for a solution. Through the month of July I tried more of this, less of that, test more, different tests, less light, no light - nothing seemed to make a difference. I had become the world champion grower of staghorn. *Not* why I had gotten an aquarium.

I eventually wandered into Tom Barr's excellent site. A post there lead me to Diana's book. Here was a resource that offered a way to a beautiful, low maintainance tank that I had wanted back in March. I discussed the book with my LFS's 'plant guy'. He was doubtful, but I was desperate. I stopped fertilizing and removed the bio-elements from the HOB filters. In two weeks the staghorn was completely gone and the cladaphora was on the run. Any doubts about Diana's recommendations were smashed; I became a Walstad method beliver.

I have since had happy plants and fish. I fertilize the plants by slight overfeeding of the fish, check my pH, GH and KH every couple of weeks, add water to compensate for evaporation, and enjoy the show my aquarium provides (even the yellow water, which in my tank is likely caused by humic substances from plant decomposition).

I have been convinced to the point that I am doing what Endler Guy suggested; I am tearing down the tank and making a 'true' NPT - the main difference being the addition of a soil underlayer in the substrate.

If you got through all that, my suggestion would be to get Diana's book. Get it, read it, and live it. In the meantime, stop dosing ferts. Once the plants take whatever the excess fertilizer is out of the water column, the algae will die. Here lies one of the problems with gravel substrates. If we add ferts to the water column, we get algae; if we add no ferts at all, the plants starve. The soil substrate is the solution. The plants can get what they need, and the water stays algae free. And I keep all the expnesive fertilizer money in my pocket. Tom Barr's EI method, which seems to work for alot of people, presents an alternate method to maintaining an algae free tank with ferts in the water column, but I perfer the low maintainance, low tech soultion a soil substrate offers.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Bubbs said:


> My 2.5ft tank is suffering from a major algae problem. I have brown sludge forming between the glass and the gravel and over some of my plants and some fuzzy stuff on the chain swords. There is also some green spot algae on the anubias which I think is quite normal as they are slow growers but noticed some of the anubias leaves are getting black algae that is as tough as green spot algae to remove.
> 
> Here are some specs on my tank,
> Size: approx. 120litres. NO c02
> ...


Sorry to hear about your algae problems. I hate to say it, but you need a soil underlayer for good plant growth and algae control. Soil gives aquatic plants nutrients that algae doesn't have access to. It gives plants a "competitive advantage" over algae.

You might be able to rectify this problem with floating/emergent plants. These plants can tap into air CO2 that algae can't. This gives these plants a competitive advantage over algae.

It's important to understand the nuances of aquatic plants versus algae. My book explains this competition.


----------

