# Soilmaster; Turface Alternatives



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

I have been happy with Soilmaster Select Charcoal and Turface Pro League Grey for several years, but both have been discontinued and I am looking for a suitable replacement. I have looked at Black Diamond (blasting grit) and the black color is great but I would like a product that can store and release nutrients....something with a good CEC.

I was doing Google searches and came across this link on GardenWeb where they were also looking for a suitable replacement for Turface.



> i made some quick and dirty anecdotal observations of Diatomite (aka Floor Dry), Oil-Dri, and Special Kitty (warning: zero science alert!). of course, your results may vary depending on batch, bag, sample from bag, planetary alignment, etc. ad nauseum. all were run through aluminum window screen. some thoughts:
> - all pass some product through screen, but in the small amounts i did, i don't see major differences in %, all are ~10%, which is way less than than what i hear about turface. what passes through is not primarily dust, more like small granules that remind me of fine clumping kitty litter.
> - dustiness: kitty litter is least dusty, diatomite was most dusty, but the oil-dri sample was old so i cannot fairly judge its dustiness; it did not spew as much dust into the air as the diatomite, but it had the finest particles in the sift (you can see that in the photo) so i suspect it can probably be pretty dusty when new. i guess it makes sense that the kitty litter would be least dusty since people get excited about that sort of thing in their houses and some of the brands mention it in advertising (this one says 'low dust' on the bag).
> - size consistency: diatomite wins by far, kitty litter is the biggest loser, oil-dri in between. you can see in the pic that diatomite has the smallest average size (1/8), then oil-dri (3/16), and kitty litter is all over the place. that's a BB (3/16) in the center of the pic.
> 
> that's kitty litter at 2 o'clock, oil-dri at 6, and diatomite at 10. the big pile for each sample is some of what stayed on the window screen, the small pile is some of what went through.
> cheers


The Oil-Dri looks intriguing, I like the darker color it seems to have less 'dust'. Has anyone tried this product? If so please post a picture and let us know how it worked for you.

30 Gallon with Turface


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## Michael

I feel your pain! I have been searching for just such a product. Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil is rumored to be the same thing as Turface. You can find it on line at outrageous prices. I am told that Ace Hardware and Lowe's carry it in some parts of the country, but not here in Texas.

The best discussion I've read of these various materials is at the Skeptical Aquarist under substrate. He cautions about oil-dri possibly containing contaminants unsafe for aquaria. He likes kitty litter, but says that you need plain clay litter with no perfume, clumping agents, odor absorbers, antimicrobials, etc. Ha! I can't find it anywhere.

I also can't find a retailer that will agree to sell me any variety of Turface in quantities less than a pallet. It is very frustrating.

Thanks for listening to me vent--please let us know what you find out.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your feedback; I will post the results of my search when I'm finished.


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## ibfan1

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been happy with Soilmaster Select Charcoal and Turface Pro League Grey for several years, but both have been discontinued and I am looking for a suitable replacement. I have looked at Black Diamond (blasting grit) and the black color is great but I would like a product that can store and release nutrients....something with a good CEC.
> 
> I was doing Google searches and came across this link on GardenWeb where they were also looking for a suitable replacement for Turface.
> 
> The Oil-Dri looks intriguing, I like the darker color it seems to have less 'dust'. Has anyone tried this product? If so please post a picture and let us know how it worked for you.
> 
> 30 Gallon with Turface


 I'm using Oil-Dri. I've only had it for about a week or two, so I can't say how it works long-term but so far it seems good! I don't think it's toxic, as none of my fish have died including my guppy fry. 
It is VERY messy though. When I was putting it into my tank, even though I had rinsed it a million times, it completely clouded the water. I couldn't see anything. However, the filter cleared it up overnight. 
The color is very natural looking. It's a dark-ish brown with flecks of red and tan mixed in. 
Oil-Dri will also temporarily bring down the pH. My tap water is very alkaline (8.0) and I was hoping Oil-Dri would lower my pH long-term. The first day, my water had been brought down to about 7.0 or 6.8. It was exactly what I wanted, so I was pretty happy about that. But unfortunately for me, I tested the water again today and the pH is climbing back up. It's now about 7.4 or 7.6. I have heard, though, that for some people Oil-Dri lowers the pH dramatically and for many weeks. 
I have also heard about it decomposing into mud. My Oil-Dri so far does not show any signs of breaking down into mud. Also, on the Walmart (I got my Oil-Dri at Walmart for $3) website description it says, "Strong granules hold liquid in and won't break down into mud." http://www.walmart.com/ip/Oil-Dri-Premium-Absorbent-25lbs/16930215
And, on the top of the 4th page of the MSDS it says that Oil-Dri is insoluble in water. http://colonialchemicals.com/uploads/Products/Oil Dri/OIL-DRI_MSDS.pdf
Therefore, I don't THINK it should dissolve into mud, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi ibfan1,

I appreciate your input, from what I am learning some folks like it and some not so much....sort of like some folks liking ADA Aquasoil and some not. I am going to pick up a bag locally and see what it looks like and provide some feedback.

Here is a picture that a member of another forum provided that I really appreciated because it gave me some idea of grain size and color (although it looks lighter in color than I had hoped). This is also proof that one picture is worth 1000 words!

Oil-Dri


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## Michael

That photo certainly makes the oil-dri look good! I'm eager to read your report.


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## ibfan1

Huh. Actually, my Oil-Dri's a lot darker. Maybe it varies from region to region?
But this is how mine looks (Sorry it's kinda blurry >.<)








It's from a bookshelf aquarium that I'm currently setting up


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi ibfan1,

Thank you for the picture, that is more of the color I was hoping for! I guess it's time to head to Wallyworld and look for a bag with a rip or tear!


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## scream-aim-fire

i use oil-dri i like it


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## edwardn

I use in my 180 Turface MVP topped with red flint (1/8 x 1/16"). Both work for me and I would not change this combination for any other...

http://www.redflint.com/filter_gravel.htm

http://www.turface.com/turface-products/infield-conditioners/turface-mvp

Contact their offices for info where their product can be purchased. I buy Turface in a growers supply, and the red flint in a water filter company.


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## aquatic tuna

For those that use the turface : Did you wash it before putting it in the tank ????
Is it real dirty like oildri ?


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## edwardn

aquatic tuna said:


> For those that use the turface : Did you wash it before putting it in the tank ????
> Is it real dirty like oildri ?


Turface contain quite a bit of dust, which washes out easily. I soaked it first in fertilizer and poured excess of water after stirring it up the next day. When topped by red flint gravel I did not have any problem with cloudiness - my filter took care of that quite rapidly....

If you plan to use Turface by itself, then I recommend a good wash with a hose, or in a suitable container in your sink. Do not try to wash too much at a time.


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## aquatic tuna

How did you soak it in fertilizer? what kind?


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## edwardn

aquatic tuna said:


> How did you soak it in fertilizer? what kind?


In a 5 gal bucket dissolve the fertilizers recommended for planted tanks - 1-2 tbsp. of each in about 3+ gal of water and dump Turface in it. Mix a bit and let it stay 24 hrs. Next day stir strongly and pour all the water out. Then next batch all over again. This is for a bottom layer and it has to be topped up with a washed sand or gravel, or the water will be v.cloudy.

Simple. Good luck!


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## aquatic tuna

I just received a 50 lb bag of turface MVP...after sifting it & rinsing it and setting up my 46 bow with it-I find it superior to oil dri in many ways...
Less dust & dirt,doesnt crumble as easy,and despite claims by some the color is real nice-very close to flourite original..
I will only use oil dri on short term setups from now on...but for my main display tanks -It will be turface MVP ...


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi aquatic tuna,

Is it sort of the natural tan color or more reddish? A pic would be great!


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## aquatic tuna

reddish brown,but not as bad as flourite...I like it alot !!
no pics yet still adjusting the KH,water is cloudy...this stuff has HIGH CEC and sucks the kh right out of the water...a good sign..


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi aquatic tuna,

You are absolutely correct; Turface products I have used are definitely high CEC.

I tried soaking some Oil-Dri in water dosed to EI levels for an emersed project, it will be interesting to see what the results are. I have one bag of Turface Pro League Grey left and if the Oil-Dri results are good I may try pre-ferting the Turface before I use it.

10 Gallon with Turface Pro League Grey


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## aquatic tuna

WOW ! very nice , Seattle...what are those lilly/banana like plants on the left??
where did you get them?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi aquatic tuna,

The plant you are admiring is Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan'; which is in the same family as the Banana Plant and is one of my favorite plants. It has no 'bananas' but I especially like the lime green color, round leaf shape, soft leaves, and it is easy to grow and propagate. It was relatively new to the hobby about the time of the 2004 AGA Convention going for big $$ back then but is more widely available and much more reasonable today. Once or twice a year I post them in the FST sub-forum.

Unfortunately I have also found that this plant does not always ship well. Because the leaves are soft they can 'melt' easily, especially in warmer weather. That is why I typically sell them at the local fish stores. It probably also explains why you don't find them being grown and distributed by the plant farms in FL. I have had individuals tell me that even when the leaves melted as long as the crown and roots are good they usually start new leaves within a week or so.


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## Michael

I may have found a local source for Turface MVP. I can't find a good photo of the product, does anyone know what color it is?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Michael,

The MVP I have seen is "Buff" and looks a lot like this:


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## Michael

Thanks, Roy. I know it's not the color you are looking for, but it will work for me.


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## James0816

I just set up a new tank. Well...old bare bottom tank. I went with the SafeTSorb product. I've had it for a spell as I have been shying away from using it after hearing all the stories about the dirtiness of it. Finally broke down to give it a go.

I initially was going to start slow by rinsing only small amounts at one time per day. Boy was I surprised. This bag was not very dusty at all! It was almost like rinsing PFS. Big initial cloudiness when first hit with water but soon cleared up. I rinsed (4) cups at a time using the kitchen sink sprayer. Added to the tank and hardly any cloudiness there either so I continued until the tank was full.

Items to note:

- I know someone else who is using the product and it is beige in color. Looked very nice which is why I got it. When I started with mine, dark. Almost Flourite color in a way but much better looking.

- Second biggie I already talked about was the dust. Hardly nil. After the rinsing and putting it all in the tank, the tank was completely settled in a few hours. Plants were added and no additional clouidness developed when messing around the substrate.

- It was also reported that it was very light in weight which made planting a bit difficult. This I found not to be the case either. I planted stems (some delicate) with no issues at all. No stems broke (unlike what can happen with Flourite) and none floated back out of the substrate.

Here is the product that I am currently trying out. It is the bag in the middle:

SafeTAbsorbent

I was also concerned with the reports of breakdown over time. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the MSDS lists solubility at < 1%.

Granted, it has only been in the tank for a few days, but I already like this product. Long term will be the key to see how it performs.

Baseline water tests (prior to adding CO2) revealed the following parms: ~ 6 pH and kH and gH are both 1. I just started CO2 yesterday so will get some more numbers this evening since it has been running for 24hrs now.

And as for the plant, Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan', I couldn't agree more. Absolutely love this plant. It has only propagated one other plant for me at the moment though.


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## Michael

Interesting, can you post a photo of the Safety Absorbent? Where did you buy it?


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## James0816

Here's a shot of it.

I got it at Tractor Supply.


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## Newt

^^^Looks very similar to Flourite Original.^^^


Speaking of Flourite; if you're all looking for a clay substitute for Turface why not go with one of the Flourites?

Cost?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Jame0816,

I like the color; it has an interesting mix of grain sizes. I would be interested in how your plants grow with it.


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## Aquaticz

Sounds a lot like oil dri which is made of the same clay and baked giving it a high CEC rating


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Aquaticz,

The Oil-Dri I picked up at Wal Mart was a disappointment; it came in a white bag. It was very "dusty" with lots of very small grains; pretty much the "buff" color posted earlier I saw Oil-Dri a local hardware chain in brown plastic bags. I think I will pick up a bag and see if it is different.


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## James0816

Do you have a Tractor Supply Company out that way?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi James0816,

Nope; I just looked it up and the closest are in Montana or California....a long way to go for substrate!


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## EntomOdonata

Another option from Tractor Supply is Black Diamond blasting media. It's a black coal slag that many have reported success with. About $9 for 50#.


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## Newt

Black Diamond, Black Beauty blasting media is typically aluminum oxide or is a slag product produced from the combustion of coal and has very sharp edges. Not so good for bottom dwellers.


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## James0816

I was curious to know the CEC value of the SafeTAbsorbent. I couldn't find it anywhere so I contacted the company directly. This particular product has a CEC value of 33.6 which is equal to Turface MVP. Excellent choice!

Now time will tell how well it does. Routine EI dosing and CO2 should do wonders.


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## Michael

James, thanks for doing the reseach. That CEC is about as high as it gets. Please keep us updated with long term results.


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## James0816

A week in with the plants and all are doing well. I've already had to trim the Rotala sp. 'Bangladesh' once and will be making a second trimming today or tomorrow. It is just simply growing that fast.

Tank is keeping a steady injection of CO2 and dry ferts which of course plays a factor too. 

Very pleased so far at this point.


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## James0816

Just a little more info on this product:

"SafeTSorb is kiln-dried, calcined and milled natural Montmorillonite Clay with medium bulk density, medium sorptive capacity, average surface area and high hardness"

Think that pretty much sums it up eh? 

Will continue to monitor this particular tank over the next few weeks and see what the parms do.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi James0816,

So, I called Moltan and talked to the West Coast salesman and found out I can get Safe T Sorb #7941 from WW Grainger. I checked the WW Grainger website and it was listed for $8.64 per bag. I called the local Grainger Supply office, confirmed product, price, availability and they will ship two bags from CA to Seattle and I can pick them up on Friday for $8.64 per bag plus tax. A lot cheaper than driving to my nearest Tractor Supply in CA or MT - lol!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

James0816 said:


> And as for the plant, Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan', I couldn't agree more. Absolutely love this plant. It has only propagated one other plant for me at the moment though.


Hi James0816,

Sorry I missed this portion of your post. To increase the number of plantlets try increasing your fertilizer dosing, specifically nitrogen if you dose EI. Also, the plantlets form on the leaves closest to the light so let a couple of leaves get tall and near the surface.

Thanks for the help on finding a substitute for Soilmaster/Turface!


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## James0816

Excellent! Do keep us posted on how your tank turns out as well. I have grown to like it thats for sure and it's not even two weeks yet. 

I'm going to try Turface MVP soon as well.

It's not too obvious that I like conducting experiments is it?

Funny you mentioned about bumping the ferts about with the Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan'. I had just actually started that this weekend. I'll probably have to do larger water changes to reset the tank but we'll see how it plays out.


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## James0816

Two weeks in and water parms are holding. gH and kH holding at 1. pH still showing around 6 but I suspect it is actually lower. Think I'll take a water sample in to work tomorrow for a lab test.

Plants for the most part are doing really well.

Bacopa australis - Trim soon
Eriocaulon cinereum 'mini' - Flowering again
Eriocaulon parkeri - Sent out it's first flower stalk
Pogostemon helferi - Concern - Doesn't appear to be doing very well. Water might be too acidic for it. But still holding its own.
Proserpinaca palustris - First trim
Rotala macrandra - First trim
Rotala mexicana 'Araguaia' - Weed - Major trim
Rotala sp. 'Bangladesh' - Weed - Major trim
Rotala sp. 'Sunset' - Doing well
Rotala sp. 'Thailand' - First Trim
Syngonanthus sp. 'Madeira' - Concern - Flourished well at first and showed good growth. Now looks to be melting for some reason.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi James0816,

Are you adding any Mg or Ca? Per Tom Barr's suggestion I don't worry too much about dKH but I do try to maintain 5.0 dGH. I use Seachem Equilibrium to raise the dGH in my tanks because some plants, like the Syngonanthus, were having problems with the low nutrient levels.


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## James0816

I was thinking of getting some gH booster. I've got a constant flow of CO2 and EI dosing that I'm tweaking just a bit.


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## James0816

Diatoms starting to appear. Could be fun trying to keep it in check with the soft and acidic water. pH to low for snails or Otos. Lots of rubbing ahead.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi James0816,

I agree Diatoms can be a problem with soft water; especially with the silicas in the Montmorillonite clay. I typically have 1-2 Otos per 10 gallons; no Diatoms in my tanks any more!


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## James0816

I do have plenty of Otos, just won't be able to put them in this tank unless I try to tweak the pH a little bit.


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## James0816

Roy, question for ya sir. I was getting ready to order some gH booster when I got to looking at the ingredients. Now I dose using two methods (depending on the tank) so I have a lot of ingredients. I dose EI and also a Pre-Mix blend of Micro-Macro.

So after looking at the ingredients of the gH booster, I compared it to the pre-mix blend and the only thing that is lacking is the Calcium Sulfate.

Curious if I should order some of the CaSO4 and switch from EI to the pre-mix for this particular tank at least for now until we see what it will do? And at 7% Fe in the pre-mix, I will have to bump up this as well.

What do you think sir?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi James0816,

I dose using the EI method myself; with a few tweaks to compensate for my soft tap water.

I looked at the Micro-Macro mix and and with "equal parts" of Potassium Nitrate / Potassium Phosphate but I was concerned with the possibility of excessive Phosphate buildup. What I could not determine was if they meant 'equal parts' by weight or PPM. I used to dose Potassium Sulphate but I believe there is sufficient Potassium in the Potassium Nitrate and Potassium Phosphate so I no longer do so unless I see signs of Potassium deficiency.

Dosing Iron with Potassium Phosphate can cause the Iron to precipitate out of the solution, I am surprised that Iron is included in the mix.


> Adding KH2PO4 and Fe (from traces) can cause a precipitate (white powder) to come out of solution. This chelated iron precipitate is now no longer available to the water column, and must now be taken up from the roots where the powder will settle.


I used to mix my own GH Booster using MgSO4 and either CaSO4 or CaCl but I did not like it for a couple of reasons. First, I found it difficult to maintain the approximately 4:1 Ca:Mg recommended ratio. Secondly I found using CaSO4 made my water cloudy for 12 - 24 hours. If I used CaCl as my calcium source the water stayed clear but adding CaCl to water results in an exothermic reaction (creates heat) so to avoid my fish 'mouthing' or eating the 'hot' CaCl granules I mixed the CaCl + H2O solution before adding it.

Now I just use Seachem Equilibrium to increase my hardness to 5.0 dGH per Tom Barr's recommendation. It is easy, pre-mixed to a 3.3:1 ratio, along with Ca and Mg it contains some Iron and Manganese, and the website has a dosing calculator so I know how much to add to move 36 gallons of water from 2.0 dGH to 5.0 dGH.


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## James0816

Some good info there. Guess I do need to bump the Fe in those tanks after reading that.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

As the search for the 'perfect' heat treated Montmorillonite clay substrate continues I thought I would update this thread with some additional information. Here are some samples of Turface Pro League 'Grey' (discontinued); Oil-Dri (from Walmart); and Safe-T-Sorb 7941. I will try to see what type of 'dust' the Safe-T Sorb 7941 has in comparison with the other two types later this week.

Three Substrates "Dry"









Three Substrates "Wet"









Three Substrates "Wet" closer so you can see grain size; photographed with flash and approx 9325K CF bulb


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## Michael

Thanks for the photos! The Safe-T-Sorb looks like it has the widest range of particle size. Have you tried planting in it yet, and how did it behave?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Michael,

I believe that James0816 has and he has even posted a picture elsewhere. I believe he follows this thread so possibly he will post his pic here as well.


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## James0816

Michael said:


> Thanks for the photos! The Safe-T-Sorb looks like it has the widest range of particle size. Have you tried planting in it yet, and how did it behave?


Afternoon. I behaves very well. It's not too light where a stem will float back out. I find this the case when working with SMS (especially after a good "fluffing"). It does not cause any cloudiness when replanting. I even stirred up the substrate bed yesterday to help dispurse the diatoms and it had very minimal effect. Now granted I'm going on week 4 with it but it is holding up very nicely.

I'm going to conduct similar tests with Turface MVP and there is another one called ION Brick that should be coming in within the next few days.


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## Bchabot

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been happy with Soilmaster Select Charcoal and Turface Pro League Grey for several years, but both have been discontinued and I am looking for a suitable replacement. I have looked at Black Diamond (blasting grit) and the black color is great but I would like a product that can store and release nutrients....something with a good CEC.
> 
> I was doing Google searches and came across this link on GardenWeb where they were also looking for a suitable replacement for Turface.
> 
> The Oil-Dri looks intriguing, I like the darker color it seems to have less 'dust'. Has anyone tried this product? If so please post a picture and let us know how it worked for you.
> 
> 30 Gallon with Turface


Have you tried using the Turface MVP? I just picked up a 50 lb sack for $14.00. The color is ugly and the gravel size is not that uniform so it could definatly benifit from screening. Otherwise I have had good success and it contains a higher iron content then seachem flourite.


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## James0816

Bchabot said:


> Have you tried using the Turface MVP? I just picked up a 50 lb sack for $14.00. The color is ugly and the gravel size is not that uniform so it could definatly benifit from screening. Otherwise I have had good success and it contains a higher iron content then seachem flourite.


Can you post up a pic? I'm currently looking at the Pro League too. I need to swing by the store and get a better look at the grain sizes before making my selection. They all seem to be in the area as far as parameters go.


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## bosmahe1

I happen to have a Tractor Supply almost across the street from me. Per this discussion, I think I have to buy a bag of Safe T Sorb. I currently have a mixture of Flourite original and Flourite dark in my 57 gallon tank. I also have a just opened bag of the "new" Flourite original. I liked Flourite Dark for it's color and it seemed easier to rinse than the original. But, it's very hard to find around here. So I bought a bag of original at Petsmart. I call it the "new" original because it looks darker brown than it used to but, not quite as dark as the Flourite Dark. the "original" original looked more reddish than brown to me. I have been adding more Flourite per cupsful at 50 % water changes lately and "man" this new version really clouds the water. It's like a white cloud that just drifts with the flow. It looks good I think but, it's annoying to add it. That's why I've been adding it by the cupful. My substrate depth is about an inch but, I'd want to bump it up half an inch. Considering the 40 lb bag of Safe T Sorb is $5.00 here, it wouldn't be a hardship to compare it to the unused Flourite that I have. I wouldn't remove my current substrate but, I could push some flourite out of a corner and replace it with some safe T sorb. Years ago, I had used the Fuller's Earth that they sold at Home Depot. Aqua soil, I believe. I didn't like it because it was too light in color and too light in planting. Even my Crypts with roots would float out until it became established. Anyway, It would be awesome if Safe T Sorb was comparable in quality to Flourite at 1/10th the cost.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Bchabot,

We have a cat and the Turface MVP which only comes in the 'natural' tan color reminds me too much of the litter box - lol!


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## aquatic tuna

I just ordered some MVP last month...It is now a reddish/clay color...nice stuff ,easy to rinse...but a little "un natural" looking IMO...


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## Michael

I bought some Safe T Sorb this afternoon from Tractor Supply, and it is very similar in appearance to the photos that Seattle Aquarist posted. Mine was pretty dusty, but a small sample was easy to rinse.

There is a wide rang of particle size; from what I would describe as medium sand to 3-4 mm. The large particles are flat. Mixed particle size and flat particles do promote compaction. Has anyone had problems with this?

It will be a month or so before I can use it in a tank. Meanwhile, I will try it in potting soil for bonsai.


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## James0816

Michael said:


> I bought some Safe T Sorb this afternoon from Tractor Supply, and it is very similar in appearance to the photos that Seattle Aquarist posted. Mine was pretty dusty, but a small sample was easy to rinse.
> 
> There is a wide rang of particle size; from what I would describe as medium sand to 3-4 mm. The large particles are flat. Mixed particle size and flat particles do promote compaction. Has anyone had problems with this?
> 
> It will be a month or so before I can use it in a tank. Meanwhile, I will try it in potting soil for bonsai.


No problems with compaction at this point. I pull up a stem or rosette and it have very little resistance. The substrate easily falls from the roots too. Makes things much easier to scape.


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## Window7

Have you use it as a cap for soil?


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## Michael

I became impatient to try the stuff, so I set up three Walstad bowls with it to propagate some plants. These bowls have about 3/4" of mineralized soil capped with 1" of Safe-T-Sorb.

So far so good. It has a nice dark color and was easy to plant in. The plants look good after one week.


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## aquatic tuna

I tried some ,too.... little rinsing compared to oil dri..nice color...I'm just using it in pots as a cap for MGOGPS.
plants like it so far.


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## snowball2020

Hi Michael,

what are your results from using the material?

Did you ever got your hands on some Turface MVP? I'd like to know where you get it since I'm in Dallas as well. Many thanks


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## Michael

snowball2020 said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> what are your results from using the material?
> 
> Did you ever got your hands on some Turface MVP? I'd like to know where you get it since I'm in Dallas as well. Many thanks


Hi Snowball, look for a PM from me about how the Turface became too much trouble to get.

The Safe-T-Sorb has worked very well in some small plant-only nano tanks. I am in the process of setting up a paludarium with STS and mineralized topsoil, and will follow that with a new planted tank for my shell-dwellers using the same substrate.

I'll report results--wish me luck!

--Michael


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## snowball2020

I'd like the option to add fish later on, so is it safe?


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## Michael

I have now set up two tanks with STS, one a paludarium with only a small water area, and one a conventional planted tank. In both, the bottom layer is fine compost that I mineralized and mixed half and half with STS. The cap is 100% STS. The plaudarium is 2 weeks old, the other tank I set up today.

I had some serious misgivings during the set-ups. No matter how much I washed the STS, the rinse water always looked like mud! Then I realized that STS is probably like Flourite--if you wash it until the rinse water is clean, there won't be anything left, lol.

So I set the tanks up in the usual way. The paludarium water was a little tea-colored, probably from all the driftwood. The conventional tank is crystal clear, even though it's only 4 hours old.

I love the color of the STS, and the mix of particle sizes. It was easy to plant in, holding even small cuttings well.

Sometime this week, I will take water samples in to my good LFS for complete tests. I'm curious to see if the STS softens our hard tap water.

So far, I am very happy.


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## Window7

Michael said:


> I had some serious misgivings during the set-ups. No matter how much I washed the STS, the rinse water always looked like mud! Then I realized that STS is probably like Flourite--if you wash it until the rinse water is clean, there won't be anything left, lol.


I have the same problem, no matter how many wash you give it a go the water will always go muddy.
This mean it will break down, time will tell when thought.
Just don't move anything in the tank then you should be fine.
Or the tank water will turn muddy.


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## James0816

This is very interesting. I'm wondering then if there is different types/batches of it?

I have very little cloudiness during rinsing and none in the tank since. Even when I rescape, I get very little muck stirred up.

Hmmmmm....odd indeed.


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## Michael

James, what part of the country are you in? It is not unusual for there to be regional variations in products like this. It is especially true of bagged "topsoil".


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## James0816

I'm in VA. It is mined in Tennessee.


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## Newt

Michael said:


> .......I had some serious misgivings during the set-ups. No matter how much I washed the STS, the rinse water always looked like mud! Then I realized that STS is probably like Flourite--if you wash it until the rinse water is clean, there won't be anything left, lol......


Perhaps its the difference between a kiln fired clay that has virtually all the moistured removed on a molecular level and a (naturally) dried clay that is loaded with moisture. The fired clay won't breakdown but a dried clay will turn to mud.


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## bosmahe1

My STS rinses clear faster than the last bag of Flourite that I bought. Even though I still have Fourite left, I am using STS from now on. Until, I find a reason not to anyway. It looks more natural than Flourite regular and the pieces are are smaller so, less for the BBA to hang onto. I am gradually, removing the Flourite and replacing it with the STS. I replace several handfuls at a time before, water changes. So far, I have noticed that my tank water drops in KH from 5 to 4 kdh. No change noticed in GH. The last time I was in Tractor Supply, the pile of 40 lb bags was no longer there. Maybe, it's a seasonal stocking thing. I now kind of wished that I bought a second bag just in case. I still have plenty left and I'm sure they will order some in for me if, needed.


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## Michael

So far I've set up three "real" tanks with STS. One is a paludarium in a very tall 20 gallon tank (the size and shape of two 10 gal stacked on top of one another). The second is a 15 gal tall "pure" plant tank; no stone, driftwood, or other hardscape, just substrate and plants. And the last is a 20 gal tall planted species tank for my _Lamprologus ocellatus_. All are between 6 and 8 weeks old. All of them have a bottom layer of 50% STS and 50% mineralized compost, capped with pure STS.

Plants range from easy to moderately difficult stem, rosette, and epiphyte types. Right now fauna are red cherry shrimp, Endler's livebearers, paradise fish, panda cories, and the _Lamprologus_ (a.k.a. ocellated shell dweller).

Everything is doing very well! My only complaint is that the STS will cloud the water slightly when disturbed a great deal. This not a problem in the paludarium or the pure plant tank. If I move plants the floss in the filters takes care of the cloudiness overnight.

But the _Lamprologus_ love to dig, and their tank stays slightly cloudy. You can still see everything in the tank quite clearly, but the water does not have the clarity of a contest entry. BTW, in that tank the mineralized compost substrate is confined to the back 1/3 of the tank which is heavily planted and protected from digging by large rocks. The fish stay in the front 2/3, where their shells are, and where they have about 2" of STS to dig in. If the cloudiness ever starts to bother me enough, I will siphon out the STS and replace it with sand.

STS gets a high rating for general planted tank use from me so far.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

So I finally got around to putting some of the Safe T Sorb #7941 in an aquarium last night; this is what it looks like with some stems from my emersed setup. This tank has no CO2 so it will interesting to see how the emersed stems do.

Apistogramma cacatoides 'Triple Red' in 10 gallon using Safe t sorb #7941









Here are my impressions compared with Soilmaster Select Charcoal (SMS):
Definitely more dusty; at least 5 rinses per bucket before adding to the tank.
Uneven particle size from sand particles to 4X SMS size; SMS was fairly uniform
About the same weight as SMS and Turface.
Nice color variation in the particles; much better than Kitty Litter. The colors shown in the picture are almost exactly the colors in my tank.
I will be taking water parameters in the morning and see what the effect if any it has on the tap water.

7/26/12 I tested my water in the Safe T Sorb aquarium today and it is typical of what I have seen with other Monmorillonite clay substrates. My tank had a PH of 6.0 and was <1.0 dKH and <4.0 dGH. My water is typically very soft and comes out of the tap with a 7.8 PH but after sitting for 24 hours drops down to about 7.0 PH. I set aside some tap water this afternoon and will test it tomorrow.

7/27/12 I tested our tap water that had been sitting out for 24 hours and it has a PH of 7.0 - 7.2, a 2.0 dKH and 6.0 dGH so it appears that the high CEC of the clay has reduced the levels down to what I took yesterday. I did add enough NaHCO2 (baking soda) to raise the dKH by 1.0 degree and enough Seachem Equilibrium to raise the dGH by 1.0 degree. I also fertilized with 1.0 ml of Seachem Comprehensive. The emersed stems I planted seem to be doing well with no melting, new leaves starting to emerge and the existing leaves turning towards the light.


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## Michael

Nice apistos!

To add a note on my Lamprologus tank--the cloudiness cleared and stayed that way. It may not have been the substrate, but rather some other new tank cloudiness. This is despite massive earth-moving by the fish.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Added info to post #76 above.


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## BruceF

Just wanted to add this link if it is not here somewhere.

http://www.drillspot.com/products/1476408/Moltan_7941_Montmorillonite_Clay_Absorbant_40_lb


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## bosmahe1

BruceF said:


> Just wanted to add this link if it is not here somewhere.
> 
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/1476408/Moltan_7941_Montmorillonite_Clay_Absorbant_40_lb


Wow, free shipping from here.

If you have Tractor Supply near by, its cheaper. But, they don't ship.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/safe-t-sorb-trade-oil-absorbent-40-lb--0800989


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## Diana K

I just used Safe T Sorb. 
1) Dump it in the tank dry. (Do not breathe)
2) Wet it well, spraying with the hose until the tank is 6" deep in muddy water. 
3) Drain the tank, being sure to stir the substrate as much as possible. 
4) Repeat the 6" fill and drain. 
5) Fill the tank. 

Result: The water in the tank (step 5) was slightly cloudy, but nothing that I would not put fish in. It was clear by the next day. 
Several days later I cleaned the filters. There was a small amount of silt from the substrate in the sponges and floss. 
I have stirred it up twice more arranging some rocks. Each time the water had a slight haze to it and was clear by the next day. 

This material removes the KH from the water like you would not believe. (Unless you have also used SMS or Turface). 
I have been adding baking soda because I am also doing the fishless cycle on this tank, and the bacteria do not grow well in water with no carbonates. That is their source of carbon. 

I really like the color. 

See if you can get it from Grainger. I ordered from the link above, and it came in a Grainger box.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

On 7/26 I posted the photo below.

Apistogramma cacatoides 'Triple Red' in 10 gallon using Safe t sorb #7941









Below is the same 10 gallon 6-1/2 weeks later and the tank still looks good. I removed 1/2 the Pogostemon erectus to my 30 gallon; the H. lancea has been cut down once so now there are double the stems and they are due for another trim; I added Penthorum sedoides and a stem of Ludwigia glanduosa both grown emersed. None of the emersed stems or plants (including the crypt) have melted or shown distress.

Still no CO2, but I am dosing Seachem Flourish Comprehensive and Seachem Excel.


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## Michael

You can see a photo of my shell dweller tank with this substrate at http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/85081-ms-walstad-visits-lake-tanganyika.html I'll soon be adding more photos to that thread.

Everywhere I have used STS (2 tanks, 1 paludarium, numerous propagation pots and jars) the results have been great.

Diana, your comment about it absorbing KH is interesting. How long does this effect last? Under certain circumstances I can see a real benefit for people in my area because our tap water is so high in calcium carbonate.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Michael said:


> Diana, your comment about it absorbing KH is interesting. How long does this effect last? Under certain circumstances I can see a real benefit for people in my area because our tap water is so high in calcium carbonate.


Hi Michael,

My experience has been that the amount of time varies with the amount of carbonate in the water and the frequency of water changes. With each water change the substrate becomes more and more 'saturated' and eventually the effect stops.


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## Diana K

Roy is right. My tap water usually has about 4-5 degrees of KH, and I do not do a lot of water changes. In the tank I just started (88 gallons, 40 lbs of STS) it took the KH out within 48 hours. I have done several water changes (I am fishless cycling, but had a problem with some pond tablets) and each time the KH drops really fast. 

In my SMS tanks they slowly stabilized over several years. Again, not a lot of water changes. Perhaps once a month. On a few I dosed some baking soda, but not regularly enough to saturate it. 

The best way I found is to blend coral sand with Turface (another of the same family of substrates). This at least stopped it from taking the KH out of the water. I ran this as a Rift Lake tank. I had to add baking soda when I did water changes so the new water was suitable, but after that I did not have to keep adding baking soda. It was stable.


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## Michael

Thanks, Roy and Diana. A long time ago I eliminated dolomite from my mineralized topsoil recipe because my tap water is about 10 degrees KH. Since I have started using STS as a cap and as an admixture to the MTS, maybe I should put it back in.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Michael,

That is certainly one option, but I like to grow 'softer water' plants so I like to maintain some control over the amount of carbonates, calcium, magnesium, etc. in my water column. If I add dolomite to my substrate I have minimal control of the amount of those nutrients that enter the water column.

That is why I use Seachem Equilibrium to bring up my water parameters after a water change. I like the handy Seachem dosing calculator where I can input my current dGH, water volume, and target dGH and it tells me how much to add. Also, Equilibrium has many of the micro-nutrients that dolomite [which is mostly CaMg(CO3)2] does not contain.


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## Diana K

Agree again. I only used the coral sand blend with the tank that I wanted the water to stay hard for the Lake Tanganyikan fish. There is no way to separate the two. 

For a soft water tank I would add coral sand, oyster shell grit or limestone sand in a nylon bag to the filter, and add baking soda with each water change. That way I have a lot more control, even if that means allowing the levels to drop way down. That is just fine with most of my fish, and the minerals in the filter make sure the level of KH is not really zero, even if that is what the test kit says. It is just too low to measure on the test. This is also a slow release source of other minerals like Ca and Mg.


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## Michael

When I set up the shell dweller tank mentioned above, I did take the precaution of adding oyster shell to the filter.

Diana, how much baking soda do you use?

BTW, I really appreciate advice from two such excellent sources!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Michael,

I prefer not to guess so I use the handy Baking Soda / dKH calculator here. I just input my water volume and dKH I want to increase and it gives me the calculation. I try not to increase more than 1 or 2 dKH per 24 hours so I don't shock sensitive fish.


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## Diana K

Over several years and lots of tanks with soil master select (also removed KH from the water) and raising the GH and KH for Rift Lake fish:

1 teaspoon of baking soda added to a 29 gallon tank will raise the KH by 2 German degrees of hardness. 
In these tanks the pH was at the bottom of the test, so 6.0 or lower, and came up to 6.2. I have since gotten a different pH test and it seems that the pH could have been in the mid to upper 5s. 

Converting that formula to any tank size, and any change in KH that I want to create has always worked for me. The most recent example was in my 88 gallon tank, I wanted to raise the KH by 4 degrees. So I added
1 teaspoon x 3 because the tank is 3 times the volume, and x 2 because I wanted twice as much change in KH. 
So I added 2 tablespoons of baking soda. Allowed it to circulate. 
Test: KH was 4 degrees higher. 

This is one of the simpler conversion things, but I do not use charts or calculators for it, not even a pencil. Just a little grey matter. 

I have done similar conversions for most of the things I use for the aquariums. I can grab a bottle of whatever I have, and see almost immediately how much to use for my 10 gallon tank or my 125.


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## Emily6

So I've been a flourite user for years and am starting to look at other options- the appearance of the turface is appealing but how does it compare to the flourite black sand nutrient wise? I think I want something less sandy than what I have and with more color appeal. I'm not a chem buff but I worry about the substrate getting maxed out and I don't particularly like the idea of layering since I change my mind so much about layout (so messy!). Thoughts?


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## Diana K

Most of the clay based substrates have very good cationic exchange capacity. 
This means they will hold on to most fertilizers, keeping them available to the plants, but not turning them loose into the water column. Soil Master Select (no longer available), Turface (available, but the colors are not my idea of a nice substrate), Safe-T-Sorb (NICE color!) and similar materials have high CEC. They also remove the carbonates from the water, allowing the pH to drop. In my tanks the KH drops to zero, then the pH hits the bottom of the test. 
I add baking soda to fix this, adds more carbonates. 
The texture of these three materials is similar. The overall size range is a lot like the Flourite (not the sand types of Flourite, the regular ones). The color of Safe-T-Sorb is a soft grey and subtle brown-tan. Looks really natural. 
Turface (see manufacturer's site) is available in tan, red and brown. The brown is supposed to be fairly dark, but I do not like the looks of it at the site. The tan and red are too garish for an aquarium. 
I have a lot of Soil Master Select Charcoal color. Almost black in the water. Really nice.


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## Emily6

Thanks for all the info- I like as close to black as I can get. My water starts off soft with a pH of 8. After CO2, it drops easily to 6 and I don't think it has enough CO2 (indicator is usually still kind of blue). I'm worried about reducing the pH further. I already treat with Equalibrium. Guess that's a problem for another forum. ;-)


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## Newt

Emily6 said:


> Thanks for all the info- I like as close to black as I can get. My water starts off soft with a pH of 8. After CO2, it drops easily to 6 and I don't think it has enough CO2 (indicator is usually still kind of blue). I'm worried about reducing the pH further. I already treat with Equalibrium. Guess that's a problem for another forum. ;-)


Add baking soda to help limiting how much the pH drops.


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## Emily6

Thanks- I've started on that problem this weekend.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Emily6,

My water is very similar and I asked Tom Barr what he suggested when he was in Seattle two years ago. He said he doesn't worry about dKH but he targets a dGH of 5-6. I dose Seachem Equilibrium to get my dGH up and because I like some carbonates in my water if the dKH isn't up to at least 2.0 after bringing up my dGH I add a little baking soda to bring it up.


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## James0816

I can say that ounce for ounce, STS is by far the best substrate I have tested and used. It has by leaps and bounds outperformed the higher priced "specialty" substrates under the same conditions. Put it in a high tech environment and watch it go! 

The one key thing that I did was to "charge" it for a week prior to putting it into production. This seemed to help stabilize it a bit better.


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## Emily6

Ok- you mean Safe-T-Sorb? Sorry, too many abbreviations. And what do you mean by "production?" Is this where it marinates in a fertilizer solution?


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## Diana K

"Charge it" means to soak it in water that is high in many of the minerals that plants use, and a good source of carbonates. The plant nutrients will latch onto the clay particles and be ready for the plants to use. These nutrients do not get released into the water in any great quantity.

"Production" is the actual use of the substrate in the aquarium, greenhouse, growing grounds or other use. 
You will need to keep on adding fertilizer, but the materials added before use will give you a very good cushion in case the fertilizer dosing is not quite right.


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## Emily6

Ok, thanks for the clarification- I was familar with charging but not production. Got it.


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## bosmahe1

James0816 said:


> I can say that ounce for ounce, STS is by far the best substrate I have tested and used. It has by leaps and bounds outperformed the higher priced "specialty" substrates under the same conditions. Put it in a high tech environment and watch it go!
> 
> The one key thing that I did was to "charge" it for a week prior to putting it into production. This seemed to help stabilize it a bit better.


Indeed. I had a half a bag of regular flourite left and I just tossed it in the trash. I won't be using it anymore. I will stick with the STS. It has a nicer color in my opinion, rinses faster and is much cheaper. When the STS gets dirty looking where it sits against the front glass, i just suck it out during water changes and add a couple of handfuls of rinsed STS to replace it. I think I will try the charging thing you mentioned. I keep an extra 40 lb bag in the garage, it was $8.00. The best savings so far, since dosing dry ferts.


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## Emily6

Yeah, the price tag is certainly appealing, as is potentially finding it in a store and not having to ship it.


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## jseyfert3

Thanks for this thread everyone. Starting my first planted tank (high tech) here in about a week and a half hopefully, and I'm using STS thanks to this thread. One thing I'm curious about is how much it'll drop my dKH, and how long that effect will last. Out of the tap, my water has a dKH of 21, a dGH of 5, and a PH of 7.2 or so.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi jseyfert3,

There is really no way to accurately answer your question. I can tell you that after 3 months I still get the dKH lowering effect even with weekly 33% water changes however our water is very soft (approx 2.0 dKH) so it likely it is taking longer to saturate the STS than it would with water with a higher dKH.

20 gallon w/AH Supply DIY LED; STS @ 3 weeks since set-up


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## UnderwaterEden

I am setting up my second planted tank, and am using Safe-T-Sorb for the first time. However, I am having a problem with significant persistent cloudiness of the water. We rinsed the STS in a tub 4 or more times and poured the water off, also left it to soak for quite a while. Then we put it in the tank, added some water,and siphoned off 3 times. I added the water carefully, but since then have moved some of the gravel quite a bit to even things out. The last major disturbance of the substrate was on Friday, midday. This turned the tank into a mud soup so that I could not see my arm down in the tank. I ran a filter and after a while the worst of it cleared up, but this significant cloudiness persists, and it is now Sunday morning. I turned the filter off a long time ago.

My questions: I see that not all who have used STS have had such a messy time with it. However, does it sound as if the batch that I got is hopeless? Or should I press on and use it anyway? (My plant order is coming tomorrow.) I think I will have to remove most of the water in order to plant, or I will quickly have a mud soup and have no idea what I am doing. I don't mind if it takes a little while for the cloudiness to settle, but will it take many days or even weeks? Am I likely to churn up a mud soup every time I replant a few stem cuttings? Or is this condition likely to improve in time?

I've thought of removing the STS and trying to somehow clean it again, but that would be labor-intensive and would use a lot of water (something we are unfortunately limited on where we live). Or does it sound like this particular bag had some kind of colloidal clay that is going to create an ongoing problem?

Thank you for your help!


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## jseyfert3

I'm currently setting up my first planted tank, and someone mentioned lots of small pieces and sifting it, so that's what I did over here in my journal. I believe the sifting got rid of much of the dust, as it would either blow out or fall out with the small stuff. After I sifted, I would put about 4-5 inches in a 3 gallon bucket at a time, and fill with water while mixing it up. I'd fill the bucket about 1/2 to 3/4 full before dumping, and did that three times per "load". After that I stuck it in my tank and filled.

Here's my journal, showing the sifting process, a pic of my tank right after filling, and a pic about 18 hours later with the filter running the whole time. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/87805-first-planted-tank-20l.html#post654940


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## UnderwaterEden

Thank you, Jseyfert3. It sounds like you cleaned yours very well, much better than I did.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi UnderwaterEden,

You may have gotten a bag with a lot of dust but it will filter out and settle; check your filter media/sponges and clean if necessary and give it a few days. Also the problem lessens over time.


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## UnderwaterEden

I appreciate that encouragement, Seattle Aquarist. I will give it more time. I've also decided to empty the water before planting tomorrow (using that as one more chance to stir up and rinse the STS) so that I will be able to see what I'm planting. Then I'll slowly refill, over a saucer.


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