# Diseased Fish



## dwalstad

Folks: My biggest problem in keeping aquariums has come from infected fish that I purchased in stores (or on-line). My experience has been especially dismal with store-bought fish (nematodes, ich, Fish TB, etc).

If you think about it, you can see why. Thousands of fish come into a store from all over. Even if only a few are carrying disease, the disease can gradually spread to healthy fish.

Many imported fish carry fish TB-- some TB strains are much more virulent than others. My Rainbowfish contracted a nasty one in 2004 (brought in by new fish purchased on-line) that I've managed to bring under control with UV sterilizers. Fish have stopped dying from it.

I recently corresponded with a vet who works with Asian guppy farms [these farms have (and have had) big problems with fish TB]. Vet would not comment when I asked him what these farms do to make sure that the fish they're selling are healthy. From his "no comment", my impression was that these farms just keep sending their infected fish. After all, infected fish can look just fine for a couple months before they succumb to the TB or secondary infections (TB will compromise the fish's immune systems). The miracle, in my opinion, is that one ever gets a healthy fish from a store. It's a testimony to the fish's immune system and just dumb luck.

There was one well-managed aquarium store where I was (in 1987) able to get healthy Rainbowfish, cichlids, etc. The owners were dedicated hobbyists and knew what they were doing. Even then, though, the imported guppies they sold were infected at the production source. I know this because I tried purchasing guppies that had never passed through the store's tanks. [The store would call me when their fish came in, and I would immediately drive over to purchase guppies still in their shipping bags.] Despite the best care, these guppies all died within a few weeks. I assume (now) that they were carrying fish TB. [I wish that this store had stopped buying guppies from a vendor that was selling diseased fish.]

I doubt that things have changed much since 1987; there's just no accountability. I quizzed (recently) one on-line, retail vendor that advertises that it sells healthy fish. Many of their fish were advertised as coming from Asia. I asked: How does it (the vendor) screen its fish so that the fish I was purchasing does not carry Fish TB?

The vendor's answer was that they quarantine the fish they import for two weeks. That is the extent of their "screening". Fish TB takes a few months to manifest itself, so a two week screening is false security, indeed.

Bottom Line: Fish deaths are not always due to poor care. I would advise beginning hobbyists to (if at all possible) buy directly from the fish breeder.


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## raven_wilde

dwalstad said:


> Bottom Line: Fish deaths are not always due to poor care. I would advise beginning hobbyists to (if at all possible) buy directly from the fish breeder.


I agree on pretty much all points of this post Diana. However, one must realize that this last point is not always feasible, especially for beginners, who may not be able to locate breeders as easily as someone who has been in the hobby long enough to have made the contacts and collected the information necessary for hunting down a good breeder.

In light of this, I'm going to add that in the event this is not possible, or practical (as in many cases, if one is looking for a specific type of fish, a local breeder may be difficult to locate, and the shipping costs of live fish can be extremely prohibitive) the next best thing should be recommended, and indeed, it is a concept both JanS and I have been constantly drumming up here on APC:

 *The Quarantine Tank* 

Whether one is a newbie to the hobby or a long time fishkeeper from way back, this is, in my oppinion, an indisposable part of a set up. Even fish obtained from a breeder can carry contagious diseases (yes, sadly this is sometimes the case) that fish in your home aquarium may not be capable of dealing with when forced into a sudden introduction. Therefore, the seperation of any newly obtained fish is key to preventing the spread of anything new to your current aquatic residents. Sadly, many hobbyists do not realize this until they've invited that one seemingly innocuous little fish into their tank, only to promptly lose everything to a massive outbreak of ich or some other nasty (this was certainly how I learned this lesson).

Maintaining a quarantine tank is not a hugely expensive undertaking, in most cases because it is not necessary to put as much money into the equipment (lighting, substrate, etc.) as one would a featured show tank. It is well worth the small amount of cost and effort in the long run, and will allow you to identify any diseases or problems in a new batch of fish before an introduction into your system.

Obviously, as you mentioned with your guppy problem, sometimes this just isn't going to do much good if you keep getting stock that is perpetually doomed. In such cases it probably is wise to find another source, but for every fish purchase I don't think ordering from a private breeder is necessary. For some, myself included, tacking that extra $40 and upwards shipping fee onto for every fish purchase is just out of the question. Maintaining a 10-20 gal QT is much much more cost effective.

Just my oppinion on the matter and now for a question:
What does TB look like in fish? I hadn't realized they could contract it, I'd be interested to know what the symptoms are and if all species can be potential carriers. Also, is there any treatment that you know of?


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## dwalstad

raven_wilde said:


> What does TB look like in fish? I hadn't realized they could contract it, I'd be interested to know what the symptoms are and if all species can be potential carriers. Also, is there any treatment that you know of?


Thanks for your comments and emphasis on quarantining-- always a good idea when buying new fish.

Symptoms of fish TB are vast and unpredictable, depending on which of the fish's tissue the bacteria (e.g., Mycobacterium marinum) attack the most.

A few common examples:


Blackhead disease of cichlids (fish's head turns black due to bacteria affecting melanin production)

shrunken bellies and crooked spines in livebearers

overweight fish that swell up (bacteria attack the liver causing unnatural fat metabolism)

reproductive failure (females stop producing eggs, as bacteria attack the ovaries)

Fish TB is slow-acting and often mis-diagnosed. Moreover, fish weakened by TB bacteria are much more susceptible to other disease. One study showed that goldfish experimentally infected with a non-killing dose of TB bacteria frequently came down with Ich. Control fish (not injected with TB bacteria) did not get Ich.

My Rainbowfish, which contracted TB in 2004, looked great until they slowly stopped eating and died. The only outward sign was jaw necrosis (mouth tissue being eaten away). It took several months between when I purchased the putative disease carriers (all 4 Neon Rainbowfish died inexplicably over the course of several months), and when I started seeing problems in my other fish. Because I've kept Rainbowfish since 1987 without mysterious and unexplained deaths, I knew something was wrong. I took the fish to a fish veterinarian, who diagnosed the problem as fish TB.

Fish TB is common in the aquarium hobby, much more than industry leaders would like to admit, and its been going on for a long time. There are no easy answers to this difficult problem, but educating hobbyists is a start.

There's nothing that turns people off from the aquarium hobby more than watching their pet fish die.


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## JanS

Very good points from both of you Diana and Raven, especially the importance of a q-tank.

I'm constantly harping that you're not saving any money or doing yourself or your tanks any favors by buying the slightly less expensive "puppy mill" type fish that so many of the chain stores carry.
In most cases a private breeder _is_ a superior source for fish, but there are many variables there too that should be taken into consideration. Where did his originating fish come from? It's always possible that they came from the same source as where we are buying our unscreened fish. Is he just pumping them out to sell without proper care and conditioning in less than perfect conditions? Those examples aren't normally the case, but it can happen too. 
With fish like Guppies that are so line bred to get certain traits like specialized fins and color, it has really affected their hardiness, resistance and health.

I do still buy fish from our local store to support them, and they will leave them in the bag for me when they come in so they have one less acclimation and tank of water to go through. I trust our store because they have very strict requirements for the quality and health of the fish they carry, and it shows. I also quarantine for quite a long period, even though they look fine, just to be sure.

If I remember right, I thought once you've had TB in a tank, you need to sterilize the entire tank and all of it's components (including isolating the remaining fish in their own tank) or you'll never completely get rid of it, and could pass it along to future inhabitants. I'm sure if that's true, it has greatly contributed to the spread of it.

Diana, you made a good point about the vet actually testing the fish for TB. That is the only true way to diagnose many fish ailments, and properly treat them for it, if applicable.

And I also agree, it's no fun to watch any fish die or even not live up to it's full potential, so some of those simple precautions will greatly improve the whole aquatic picture.


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## raven_wilde

One more question for you about TB...

Do you know how it would manifest itself in tetras? Could it be confused with neon tetra disease? And while we are on that subject.... I have several tetras (neons and von rios) infected with what I believe is neon tetra disease (cloudy masses have developed in their muscle tissue, especially along the spine and tail, as well as spinal deformations). I'm planning on catching them all this next week and flushing them... I've been putting it off because catching them will require tearing the whole tank down... 

Could this be TB? Either way, what precautions do you think I should take to ensure the health of the other fish that live in this tank?


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## dwalstad

Hi Raven,

Feel free to ask as many questions as you like on this topic. Since my Rainbowfish contracted TB and infected all 3 tanks, I am actively working on the Fish TB problem.

I suspect your Neons have TB. Fish TB is very common in tropical fish hobby. One study found that over 80% of the 300+ tropical fish examined had TB. Fish were from both home aquariums and pet shops. I'm speculating that the fish selected and autopsied were dead, dying, or moribund.

Fish TB is incurable. What's more, the usual measures, in my humble opinion, make it worse. I went all-out to feed my fish (for a month) with Rifampicin/Ethambutol (key antibiotics used for treating human TB). Did not work.

What's more, I think treatments and cleaning measures backfire. _Mycobacterium_ species are all incredibly slow-growers that dominate clean environments. Some have been found in bottled water! They don't last long outside the fish in a dirty environment where they have to compete with much faster-growing, normal bacteria.

Last summer, one of my Turquoise Rainbowfish had a small TB sore on her side. I put her in a hospital tank containing salt and antibiotics. The sore only got bigger. I put her back in a regular planted tank with lots of dirt. The sore has totally healed up, and she's doing fine as I write this.

I too thought I'd have to tear down tanks and start over. However, since I added UV sterilizers in Jan 05 to the tanks, my fish stopped dying. They seem to be doing well.

The UV sterilizer will kill the TB bacteria released by the infected fish. My fish are probably still infected, but they're not being continuously exposed to more _Mycobacterium_ in the water. As with any pathogen, the number of pathogens that the fish is exposed to is critical. The UV sterilizer lowered that number to a level that the fish's immune system could handle.

This is all tentative, folks.


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## JanS

raven_wilde said:


> I'm planning on catching them all this next week and flushing them...


Raven, I don't know if you meant that literally, but please don't flush them.
There are much more humane methods of euthanizing.
Since the biggest job will be catching them, it would be just as easy to use one of these methods. Euthanizing methods
It's never easy, but it's nice to make it as humane as we can.


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## raven_wilde

I'm sorry Jan, that was a bit cavalier of me, flushing is horrible, I do know better... anyway, I'm not a member of AquaDen so I can't read that link, so what kind of alternative methods are we speaking of?... 

In the past, with bigger fish (cichlids/sunfish), I've placed them in the freezer, this was a method recommended to me over the fishgeeks forum... and I guess it would be the other option for the tetras... although I know there are others out there. Initially I was actually planning on feeding these guys to my turtles, allowing some kind of benefit to be gained through their deaths, but if they indeed have TB then I don't want to risk passing it on. 

One last question about TB: if indeed this is TB, wouldn't it have spread by now to the other fish in my tank? The Rams and Rasboras do not seem to be at all affected, which it why I thought this was NTD, as they have all been together for at least 6 months.... the tetras I've had for about a year, their tankmates were added later, before these symptoms began to manifest in... hmmm... late october/early november of last year.

Anyway, I'm hoping that by putting down the tetras next week (as I'm planning a massive rescaping of that tank and will be taking everything out) some sort of end will be found to this. Short of UV sterilization (these gadgets are little beyond my buying power at the moment), is there any other route to take precaution-wise?


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## dwalstad

JanS said:


> I trust our store because they have very strict requirements for the quality and health of the fish they carry, and it shows.


I hope to see the day when hobbyists will seek out stores like yours--- stores that make an effort to buy fish from reputable sources and to care for them properly.

With the prevelance of Fish TB in the aquarium hobby, I believe it is worth the trouble (and added expense) for hobbyists to seek out reliable sources of fish.

Most hobbyist fish breeders can tell (over time) if their fish are infected with TB. Unexplained deaths and fish producing much fewer young were what I saw in my own fish and what others have reported when TB infected their healthy fish colonies. Most hobbyist breeders would never knowingly sell infected fish. A fish breeder who sells infected fish directly to hobbyists can be held accountable.

Stores are much less accountable. If the fish dies 6 weeks later, was it from something the fish picked up in the store, or was the wholesale breeder selling infected fish to the store, or was the hobbyist providing poor care? It's almost impossible to sort out who's responsible, so the end result is no one's held accountable. Unless stores are vigilant, wholesalers can easily sell them fish infected with tuberculosis. This common disease often has no outward symptoms and is slow-acting. Its very easy for wholesalers to pass TB infected fish onto stores that don't care what they sell.

Six weeks after purchase, the outwardly healthy-looking fish simply stops eating and dies. The hobbyist shakes his head, wonders why, and maybe blames himself for something he did or didn't do.


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## dwalstad

raven_wilde said:


> One last question about TB: if indeed this is TB, wouldn't it have spread by now to the other fish in my tank? The Rams and Rasboras do not seem to be at all affected, which it why I thought this was NTD, as they have all been together for at least 6 months.... the tetras I've had for about a year, their tankmates were added later, before these symptoms began to manifest in... hmmm... late october/early november of last year.
> 
> Anyway, I'm hoping that by putting down the tetras next week (as I'm planning a massive rescaping of that tank and will be taking everything out) some sort of end will be found to this. Short of UV sterilization (these gadgets are little beyond my buying power at the moment), is there any other route to take precaution-wise?


I wouldn't panic unless I see the other fish come down with it.

Here's a link to 'Neon Tetra disease', attributed to a parasite not tuberculosis bacteria. Sad to say, but either disease is incurable and can spread to other fish species.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/neondisease.htm

In any event, the sooner you can remove the infected fish from the tank, the better.


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## JanS

raven_wilde said:


> I'm sorry Jan, that was a bit cavalier of me, flushing is horrible, I do know better... anyway, I'm not a member of AquaDen so I can't read that link, so what kind of alternative methods are we speaking of?...


I didn't think it would be like you to do that.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention about not being able to read the article it if you're not registered. It wasn't supposed to be that way, so I fixed it and you should be able to see it now. It is worth the read.
I personally use the freezer method, and I've heard they just go to sleep and don't feel much.



dwalstad said:


> I hope to see the day when hobbyists will seek out stores like yours--- stores that make an effort to buy fish from reputable sources and to care for them properly.


Yes, it would be nice if more places made the effort to carry only high quality fish and treated them like they would their own. Hopefully with more people getting serious about it, the stores may find they have to come around. Is that wishful thinking? 
The annoying thing is that now our big chain store must be losing fish sales, so they've started selling the same types of fish as the good store does, but for a lesser price, and of course lesser quality....


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## Jane in Upton

Hmmmm, Diana, I also have a question.

Last fall, I got a trio of red veil-tailed guppies from a hobbyist & breeders auction. They and some red wag platies from the same auction are in a tank established just for them (kind of permanent quarantine). The male guppy died inexplicably about 5 weeks in. I added a larger male Endler, just for kicks. No other casualties since the male guppy. Platies are breeding, and everyone eats vigorously. However, both the female guppies constantly look like they're hugely gravid. Dark gravid spot, and the ribcage pushed like they have a huge load of babies ready to be dropped. However, They have looked like this continually for 7 months now. I KNOW the male Endler is extremely attentive, and they've appeared receptive, or at least it looks like they've been mating. There was ONE baby that looked like it was probably a guppy baby, but I only saw him for a few days. The population density is such that he probably got eaten by a larger platy. Could this be TB in the female guppies?

Thanks for always-interesting posts!
-Jane


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## raven_wilde

Probably a dumb question but: 

Endlers and guppies can interbreed?

I don't know why I am surprised by this, livebearers have always been a bit of a mystery to me, even the ones I've managed to keep successfully.


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## Bert H

> Endlers and guppies can interbreed?


Yes. If my memory serves me correctly, Endlers are (were) a subpopulation of guppies that were environmentally isolated. Someone please correct above if wrong.


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## Jane in Upton

I'm not quite sure about their classification - they CAN interbreed, and produce fertile offspring, so that rules out the usual species distinction (think horse + donkey = mule, which is sterile). BUT, I've read articles about female preference and breeding selection in Endlers and Guppies, and the females of both groups show a strong perference for their "own" type of males. Offspring from a "cross" are not as plentiful (smaller brood size). 

Typically the offspring from a "Fancy" guppy x Endlers cross are not as colorful as the fancy guppy, because the specific traits that have been bred for are "diluted". But, there are some very pretty offspring, nonetheless, so I was curious. Often the brilliant coloration of the Endlers shows up in the offspring (neon green streaks, day-glo red spots). Besides which, I have PLENTY of the Endlers (pure wild strain, 'Center Peacock' in their own Endlers-only 15 gal). So, this male will never go back to his fellows - I'm keeping the wild strain isolated. But, I guess I must have less respect for the fancy guppy lines (DOH!) because I was willing to mess with them.

Anyhow, the one solitary guppy baby was probably the Endler's offspring (it had a black dot in his tail developing at only 8-10 days old!). But, he's nowhere to be found, now. This was all recent, too, and both female guppies still look ready to drop a brood of dozens! Their scales are NOT ruffled out, (in fact, they're quite shiny and healthy looking) and other than this unnaturally long-lasting fullness, they show no signs of ill health. 

Has anyone else noticed this continual mega-pregnant look?
-Jane


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## dwalstad

Jane in Upton said:


> Hmmmm, Diana, I also have a question.
> 
> Last fall, I got a trio of red veil-tailed guppies from a hobbyist & breeders auction. They and some red wag platies from the same auction are in a tank established just for them (kind of permanent quarantine). The male guppy died inexplicably about 5 weeks in. I added a larger male Endler, just for kicks. No other casualties since the male guppy. Platies are breeding, and everyone eats vigorously. However, both the female guppies constantly look like they're hugely gravid. Dark gravid spot, and the ribcage pushed like they have a huge load of babies ready to be dropped. However, They have looked like this continually for 7 months now. I KNOW the male Endler is extremely attentive, and they've appeared receptive, or at least it looks like they've been mating. There was ONE baby that looked like it was probably a guppy baby, but I only saw him for a few days. The population density is such that he probably got eaten by a larger platy. Could this be TB in the female guppies?
> 
> Thanks for always-interesting posts!
> -Jane


Dear Jane,

That's too bad that the fish you got from a hobbyist were diseased. I'm also sorry to hear that people are selling sick fish at auctions. However, this disease is very hard to pin down (without an autopsy).

Because of disease prevalence in guppies and symptoms you've described, I would guess that it is tuberculosis. Their bodies are filled with fluid, not babies. Normal guppies don't hold their babies for months. Below is a well-written article about Fish TB in Rainbowfish that describes the myriad of bizarre symptoms, including body swelling. The swelling can, in my opinion, come from either an internal build-up of ascites fluid (Dropsy) or a liver malfunction that makes the fish overweight. Two of my Rainbowfish became grossly overweight from the disease.

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Myco.htm

I don't think disease spread to the Platies or other tanks is inevitable. Fish species differ in their susceptibility and mycobacteria differ wildly in their virulence. The fish's luck can also be a factor, as some fish do completely escape infection even in infected tanks.

I don't see any reason to tear down the tank, but I would euthanize the two guppies.


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## Jane in Upton

Thank you for the reply, Diana.

Darn - I figured it was TB, but was still holding out hope that it was some odd "guppy thing". And you answered my "next" question before I asked it - about euthanizing the guppies. I don't think the platies have it, as they're breeding, eating and generally look in top-notch shape (no odd swellings). 

I'll keep the remaning occupants of that tank isolated, and obviously never pass on any platy offspring born in it to other hobbyists. I'm going to be very thorough about washing everything after working in that tank, too. I'm thinking of the earlier posts (on WT, but worth looking up here on APC for those who are interested) about transferrance to other tanks and the potential risks to humans. 

Is there a way to sterilize tools between tanks? Or would a thorough "hand scrub" with very warm to hot water (what I do now) suffice?

Can I transplant plants from that tank to my others? I recall that thread about this type of bacteria, and I believe someone mentioned that the genus is on plants, in soil, and generally well distributed in the environment, BUT, once it has "set up" in fish, it was unlikely to go back. 

If it is transferrable via plants, is there a method of sterilizing or ridding the plants of it (like a diluted bleach dip)? I have a few really nice things in that tank I'd hate to just trash.

Thanks!
-Jane


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## dwalstad

Hi Jane,

I'm not sure that I would worry too much about it.

Why? Because many fish that have passed through my tanks (over the years) probably had tuberculosis. I suspect that the many of the store-bought guppies, Blue Dwarf Gouramis, etc that died within a few weeks were probably infected with TB.

In earlier post (this thread) I discussed the Neon Blue guppies I purchased from an aquarium store in 1987. I suspect now that were infected (at the wholesaler level) with tuberculosis. I purchased at least 6 pairs of these fish over time. None lived more than a couple weeks. 

However, I kept one male with a non-infected female (different strain purchased from a guppy breeder) for two weeks in a 5 gal tank before he died. His offspring (see Color Plate 1 in my book) were not infected. Note: TB can be transmitted from a guppy female (or any livebearer) to her young. The chances for a male transmitting it via sperm is probably much, much less. 

None of my fish since 1987-2004 seemed to have problems-- despite the fact that I took no precautions. 

I do not think that sterilizing equipment is necessary or advisable in your home aquarium situation. Moreover TB bacteria are extremely resistant to sterilization methods-- chloroxing, chemicals, antibiotics, salt, etc. I think cleaning measures just kill normal bacteria that eventually will "outgrow" them. What will truly kill mycobacteria is: a few minutes at 70C (think of "milk pasteurization" used to kill human tuberculosis bacteria) and UV light.

I would keep an eye on the platies but not worry too much. As long as they are breeding and not showing symptoms, you're probably okay. Should any show symptoms (lethargy, not eating, etc), I would euthanize the afflicted fish immediately.

It seems to me that the really virulent strains that cause the problems are mainly associated with diseased fish. Thus, letting fish die in the tank and be picked on by healthy fish is a real no-no. I suspect that mycobacteria don't last long once outside the fish.

Hope this helps!

Diana


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## dwalstad

JanS said:


> Yes, it would be nice if more places made the effort to carry only high quality fish and treated them like they would their own. Hopefully with more people getting serious about it, the stores may find they have to come around. Is that wishful thinking?


JanS,

I share your line of thinking.

The more we educate hobbyists in caring for their fish (as you are doing so nicely), and warning hobbyists of the prevelance of diseased fish in the aquarium hobby, the better.

I'd love to see aquarium stores start addressing the disease issue head-on. I think they could make a lot of headway over chain stores by making some effort to sell relatively disease-free fish and educating their customers. They should let their customers know that they have a superior product, and that it just might be worth the extra cost. A little pamplet saying, "Here's what our store does to sell you healthy fish."

Aquarium store managers should be actively addressing the TB issue, since the disease can be transmitted to humans ('Fish Tank Syndrome') and have nasty consequences. Employees who daily clean tanks and handle fish deserve some warning. Even if its just simple precautions not to dip hands/arms in tank water if they have an open sore, and to scrub-up after cleaning tanks.

I'm having wishful thinking too!


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## JanS

Thanks for your kind words Diana. 

One thing that really impressed me with our store in addition to insisting on healthy stock is that they ask the customers questions about their tank conditions before a sale. If they don't believe the customer has the proper accommodations, they won't sell to them even though it means losing a sale. The owner says that he'd rather do the ethical thing than make a couple of bucks.

I agree that more people should be educating aquarists about the possible dangers of the disease being transmitted to humans. I know of one case that it happened and the guy went through an ordeal he never wants to experience again.


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## plantbrain

One simple and got method, let the fish sit at the LFS for 3 -4 weeks before buying them. You can put a deposit on them. Tell the LFS, whoesaler etc, you'll get them but you are waiting for the new tank it get set up or just say you have something to deal with etc. 

Or just wait and hope no one buys them up.

If they die, then it's the LFS's lost and they likely had a something wrong with them.

I never buy fish that have not been there for some time prior.

I agree about the TB, and other diseases, they are extremely rampant in breeding facilities. They don't want you to know that, many are unaware, many simply don't know how to deal with the issues, some are unwilling to put $$$ into control also. They still get paid as long as the fish make it alive, then the wholesaler takes the hit. If not the wholesaler, then the LFS, if not the LFS, then you.

The longer you wait, the higher the chance the fish will be free of the disease and be the stronger batch of the cohort.

The wholesaler I deal with has issues with some sellers/fish and it's not the water. Water quality is very high as my own tanks.

If you insituted proper health care and ethics for the fish hobby across the board, the cost would increase 50-200%, but the quality would be very high also. Only one or two LFS in our area does quarantines. Most LFS's and almost all wholesalers do not.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dwalstad

I'd like to add to the good points made by Tom and JanS:

The well-managed store that I used to shop at was like the one JanS described. (JanS, you're so lucky to have one!) Employees, who all belonged the local fish club, wouldn't let you buy if they thought you were overstocking a new tank, etc. I still remember that they cut me off after a certain number of Rainbowfish! Every morning employees removed dead fish from the tanks... a major disease-management measure. When you went in, there was always water on the floor from people cleaning tanks, etc. Tanks with diseased fish were set aside for quarantine and treatment. I bought many healthy fish from that store when I started setting up tanks again in 1987. I think the healthy fish I got from this store maintained much of my subsequent enthusiasm. This store was always bustling. Evenings, you could hardly get inside. I really miss it. 

Another tip to add to Tom's advice on dealing with stores:

No matter how healthy the _one fish _you want to buy looks, if its tankmates are sick, don't buy it! If there are dead or sick fish in the tank, that should tell you *right-off *that the store is not serious about disease-management and doesn't care what they sell.

Tuberculosis is currently rampant in the aquarium hobby. If some of the fish in the store's tank are sick, it is more than likely (I'd guess 50:50 odds) that the tankmates that look healthy may be carrying tuberculosis (or some other disease) and will succumb within a few weeks.


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## raven_wilde

dwalstad said:


> Every morning employees removed dead fish from the tanks... a major disease-management measure.


Where I used to live in Central NY the two locally owned fish stores were actually terrible places to shop...dirty, overstocked, and run by uninformed individuals. In one of them the staff would actually purposely leave the dead fish in the tanks. One of the employees informed me that she thought, "it is better anyway to do this, eating them gives the other fish something to do all day". This made the local PetSmart the place I eventually had to turn to to get fish because at least there they kept the tanks clean, oddly enough though, it is where I got the disease infested tetras I will be euthanizing later today after I finish my coffee and get off APC. Essentially, the Ithaca area is a sink for tropical fish... so sad really.

So now that I live in Michigan I totally appreciate the two or three really good stores I have access to. The staff at these places are sooo much more knowledgable, talk to you about your tanks, quarantine their fish, and order from seemingly better sources. I am very very lucky.


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## Jane in Upton

Thanks for the informative and thoughful answers. Especially if the disease is passed through the mother, this warrants against having kept the solitary Guppy/Endler offspring, even if it had survived. 

And by all means, I think pet shop workers should be informed of the risks! This suddenly called to mind a young guy I saw cleaning a tank, with significant "Asphalt Burns" on his arm (the one in the tank) and leg - looked like the results of a skateboarding mishap. Eeek. 

OK, well, I won't get overly anxious about the situation, but will keep an eye on the Platys, as you suggested. It is such a shame, as it does quash some enthusiasm for the hobby.

Well, all good information. 
Thanks!
-Jane


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## Tentacles

Does anyone know how TB would manifest itself in bettas?

My fish room has been closed apart from blackworms as live food for six months and the only problem I have is the slow continuously swelling stomachs which I put down to a parasite in the blackworm. No treatments seem to work... but I assumed it wasn't contagious fish to fish.


----------



## vancat

interesting thread, diana, jan, jane!


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## Tentacles

dwalstad said:


> Because of disease prevalence in guppies and symptoms you've described, I would guess that it is tuberculosis. Their bodies are filled with fluid, not babies. Normal guppies don't hold their babies for months. Below is a well-written article about Fish TB in Rainbowfish that describes the myriad of bizarre symptoms, including body swelling. The swelling can, in my opinion, come from either an internal build-up of ascites fluid (Dropsy) or a liver malfunction that makes the fish overweight. Two of my Rainbowfish became grossly overweight from the disease.
> 
> http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Myco.htm


Does anyone know if these symptoms present the same in bettas?

I was patting myself on the back for eradicating all the usual betta diseases like finrot etc but I think I patted too soon.


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## dwalstad

Tentacles said:


> Does anyone know if these symptoms present the same in bettas?
> 
> I was patting myself on the back for eradicating all the usual betta diseases like finrot etc but I think I patted too soon.


Hey Tentacles,

Sorry, I didn't get to your letter sooner.

Yes, Bettas get Fish TB. In fact, I have about 3 scientific papers describing infections in breeding farms of Siamese Fighting Fish. If any tropical fish died of swollen belly, I would suspect Fish TB.

The disease is widespread. One scientific survey (autopsies and histological exams) of 70 dead aquarium fish found that 1/2 clearly died of it.

I actually should have called the disease MB (mycobacteriosis). It is the fish/reptile equivalent of human tuberculosis, and just as devastating.

The _Mycobacterium_ species responsible for the disease are related to _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_, the bacteria responsible for human tuberculosis.

Scientists are using _Mycobacterium marinum _infections in Zebrafish as a disease model to safely study the highly dangerous human tuberculosis bacteria. Ironically, there have been several scientific papers now on devastating mycobacteriosis outbreaks in these laboratory Zebrafish colonies. Ironic, because I'm sure that the scientists have screened in-coming fish and given them optimal care.

I hope to publish major article on mycobacteriosis next year. It's a very important and interesting topic.


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## BryceM

This is a great thread with tons of good information. One point that is important to remember......

The presence of a bacteria or virus does not always produce a disease in the host. In fact, it almost never does. The immune system of fish is no less robust than our own. Even in humans, TB often remains dormant for years and years. In the majority of cases, an infected person shows no outward signs or symptoms and usually dies of something else. So why do we worry about it? Well, there are still a good number of people that do show symptoms and world-wide, it remains a serious disease that kills millions.

Diana already said it, but it's worth emphasizing again - mycobacterium infection in fish is NOT the same disease as TB in humans.

Fish that are stressed are more susceptible to disease. A clean environment, good food, and proper care go a long way. Even fish that are infected can sometimes live perfectly normal lives if the infection does not get out of control. Some will still die, and a new infection introduced with new fish can be devastating. Healthy fish subjected to the abuses of bulk handling, wholesale distribution, and highly variable LFS practices can easily come down with something. Think of it like what happens to humans when subjected to forced-labor camps and such.

One of the best parts of keeping live plants is that it generally results in a great environment for the fish. If nothing else, they're usually being cared for by someone with a bit of intelligence and an actual commitment to the hobby. On average, this will result in lower infection rates, living longer, and more "normal" behavior.


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## fishtk75

dwalstad,
I am here and read from other forum you linked here.
Is there any place esle to look as links to read.


That goes for other members too for me to look and read up on also.


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## dwalstad

*Mycobacteriosis*

Hi John,

There are some other links, but this one from the University of Florida gives an official overview of mycobacteriosis. There's plenty of information in the scientific literature.

I hope to have more to say on this in the future. This important subject deserves a thorough treatment, much more complicated than what I can get into here.

Mycobacteriosis in Fish


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## fishtk75

dwalstad said:


> Hi John,
> 
> There are some other links, but this one from the University of Florida gives an official overview of mycobacteriosis. There's plenty of information in the scientific literature.
> 
> I hope to have more to say on this in the future. This important subject deserves a thorough treatment, much more complicated than what I can get into here.
> 
> Mycobacteriosis in Fish


Thank you again.
Is there some TB to watchout for.
I can not find it were it said that if the TB breaks out and puts itself in the water not to put your hands in the tank it is the one that people can get?


----------



## JanS

Hi John. 

I can't remember the specifics, but I do remember one member of an old forum contracting the fish form of TB himself, and it was quite the ordeal to go through.

It is definitely something to be careful with. If in doubt, wear long armed gloves when you have to stick your hands in the tank, even though it's a PITA.


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## Beasts

Please, if you do find an lfs which consistently offers healthy livestock, let them know. My reason for leaving the pet store business was, in large part, the lack of appreciation shown by customers, for both myself as a businessman and the living beings that I was selling. I remember more than a few people grilling me for information because of my background in biology and experience on the curatorial staff at a marine aquarium who then turned around and spent their money at a store that was cheaper or closer to their home. And the proverbial straw was the young girl who let me know that, because her family had just moved from a house to an apartment, they had their dog killed! All this in a tone of voice which could have been used to tell me that she had taken out the garbage!
Search out and support those who are doing a good job. And why not let the rest of us know who they are? We don't have to mention the businesses we don't like, just the ones we are impressed with.
To start the ball rolling; I have been quite impressed with Aquarium Adventure in Columbus,Ohio. It is a fish only store with 12,000 square feet (!) of space and some very knowledgeable and helpful employees. 
Beasts


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## fishtk75

Beasts said:


> Please, if you do find an lfs which consistently offers healthy livestock, let them know. My reason for leaving the pet store business was, in large part, the lack of appreciation shown by customers, for both myself as a businessman and the living beings that I was selling. I remember more than a few people grilling me for information because of my background in biology and experience on the curatorial staff at a marine aquarium who then turned around and spent their money at a store that was cheaper or closer to their home. And the proverbial straw was the young girl who let me know that, because her family had just moved from a house to an apartment, they had their dog killed! All this in a tone of voice which could have been used to tell me that she had taken out the garbage!
> Search out and support those who are doing a good job. And why not let the rest of us know who they are? We don't have to mention the businesses we don't like, just the ones we are impressed with.
> To start the ball rolling; I have been quite impressed with Aquarium Adventure in Columbus,Ohio. It is a fish only store with 12,000 square feet (!) of space and some very knowledgeable and helpful employees.
> Beasts


Beasts,
I am sorry to here how you got out of the business.
If that how her family treats animals how do they treat each other as a family! 
There is more and more out in the world treat pets as things not a living beings.
I would have gave that dog to a new home.
I had to put my dog to sleep because he had cancer and I did not like to see him in pain.
I like to know is how to take care of your pets they are your family.
As I read one person said there is no way to stop everything you have to be ready for when it happen the best you can.
That is way I asked for help everyone knows something that is apart of the world we live in.

As to LFS I have been going to That Fish Place, Lancaster,PA they have a some very knowledgeable and helpful employees also.
I know that everyone have good and bad times I had more good times from thems for help.


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## dwalstad

fishtk75 said:


> Thank you again.
> Is there some TB to watchout for.
> I can not find it were it said that if the TB breaks out and puts itself in the water not to put your hands in the tank it is the one that people can get?


I would caution you not to use the term TB, since this is the deadly lung disease in humans. It may scare hobbyists! The bacteria that cause human TB are not the same as those that cause MB (mycobacteriosis) in fish.

That said, MB can cause problems in people, especially aquarium hobbyists (doctors call it "fish tank syndrome". The mycobacteria enter through cuts on the arms and hands. Fortunately, these "fish mycobacteria" don't do well at human body temperature (37C). Therefore, the infection in humans is usually restricted to the extremeties (hands and arms) where the body's temperature is lower and the bacteria can grow and "set up shop". The bacteria produce painful sores that often take months and sometimes a year to heal, even with the best antibiotic treatment. Unlike human TB, the disease is not fatal in humans, and the sores eventually heal.

Hobbyists or store employees that maintain lots of tanks should take reasonable precautions- not cleaning tanks with open sores, and if they do, to wash themselves carefully and soon (within 30 min) afterwards.

Mycobacteriosis is very common in tropical fish. One random scientific screening of over 300 tropical fish at various fish distribution centers found that at least 12% of the fish had MB. It's transmission to aquarium hobbyists is not so common. My guess is that conditions have to be _just right _.

Worst case scenario:


tank contains fish infected with a virulent strain of mycobacteria (many of the mycobacteria infecting fish aren't that virulent to humans), 
hobbyist is immunodeficient (or older)
hobbyist has a cut or open wound on the hand or fingers.


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## fishtk75

dwalstad said:


> I would caution you not to use the term TB, since this is the deadly lung disease in humans. It may scare hobbyists! The bacteria that cause human TB are not the same as those that cause MB (mycobacteriosis) in fish.
> 
> That said, MB can cause problems in people, especially aquarium hobbyists (doctors call it "fish tank syndrome". The mycobacteria enter through cuts on the arms and hands. Fortunately, these "fish mycobacteria" don't do well at human body temperature (37C). Therefore, the infection in humans is usually restricted to the extremeties (hands and arms) where the body's temperature is lower and the bacteria can grow and "set up shop". The bacteria produce painful sores that often take months and sometimes a year to heal, even with the best antibiotic treatment. Unlike human TB, the disease is not fatal in humans, and the sores eventually heal.
> 
> Hobbyists or store employees that maintain lots of tanks should take reasonable precautions- not cleaning tanks with open sores, and if they do, to wash themselves carefully and soon (within 30 min) afterwards.
> 
> Mycobacteriosis is very common in tropical fish. One random scientific screening of over 300 tropical fish at various fish distribution centers found that at least 12% of the fish had MB. It's transmission to aquarium hobbyists is not so common. My guess is that conditions have to be _just right _.
> 
> Worst case scenario:
> 
> 
> tank contains fish infected with a virulent strain of mycobacteria (many of the mycobacteria infecting fish aren't that virulent to humans),
> hobbyist is immunodeficient (or older)
> hobbyist has a cut or open wound on the hand or fingers.


Thank you again for this help.
I will remember about the TB and MB.
I have a new book ( Manual of Fish Health by Andrews,Exell, and Carrington) It has a very good pages that shows all the pests and diseases and also about about TB and MB.


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## Tentacles

As well as people with cuts or scrapes, people with compromised immune systems should not put their hands in tanks.

Also swallowing syphon water is bad. 

In one case pile of people contracted it on the skin on their legs from wading in warm shallow water somewhere tropical once... Florida maybe.


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## BiscayneBoulevard

I may be paranoid after reading this thread... but just yesterday one of my goldfish suddenly died from dropsical symptoms - I noticed in the morning that he had a swollen stomach and protruding scales (only slight for both symptoms though) and could not control his swimming. My nitrates were a little high (20ppm) so I did a 50% water change, and when I got home the poor guy was dead.

I've had 3 other fish die from these sort of symptoms - two were pearlscale goldfish, the other (and the one that died yesterday) were bubble eyes. I always put it down to their extremely fancy body shapes, and have read that the fancier goldfish are prone to swimbladder and dropsy - especially the pearlscales............ do you think it is more likely to be MB?


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## dwalstad

BiscayneBoulevard said:


> I may be paranoid after reading this thread... but just yesterday one of my goldfish suddenly died from dropsical symptoms - I noticed in the morning that he had a swollen stomach and protruding scales (only slight for both symptoms though) and could not control his swimming. My nitrates were a little high (20ppm) so I did a 50% water change, and when I got home the poor guy was dead.
> 
> I've had 3 other fish die from these sort of symptoms - two were pearlscale goldfish, the other (and the one that died yesterday) were bubble eyes. I always put it down to their extremely fancy body shapes, and have read that the fancier goldfish are prone to swimbladder and dropsy - especially the pearlscales............ do you think it is more likely to be MB?


Dear Biscayne,

MB is certainly possible. The dropsy symptom can be caused by MB (acute MB infections cause an increase in the internal ascites fluid resulting in the hideous swelling). However, only an autopsy would tell you for sure if MB was involved.

Nitrates themselves are not toxic (even at 100-200 ppm), so the high nitrates themselves did not contribute to the problem. Rather, I would check for nitrites and ammonia, which are the most common aquarium toxins. These are the toxins that would stress your fish and make them more vulnerable to MB and other diseases.

If the water parameters are okay and you continue to have unexplained disease that does not respond to antibiotics, I would consider a UV sterilizing filter. A UV filter will kill bacteria in the water and decrease the likelihood of fish contracting MB and other diseases. Even if the fish are carrying disease, the UV sterilizer will keep the fish from constantly reinfecting themselves or transmitting the disease to uninfected fish.

My Rainbowfish (infected with MB in 2004) owe their lives to UV sterilizers.


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## JanS

dwalstad said:


> Nitrates themselves are not toxic (even at 100-200 ppm), so the high nitrates themselves did not contribute to the problem. Rather, I would check for nitrites and ammonia, which are the most common aquarium toxins. These are the toxins that would stress your fish and make them more vulnerable to MB and other diseases.


Just for clarification, nitrites and ammonia should not be common toxins in the aquarium, except in the first few weeks of initial cycling, and in that time the fish load should be very light, and there should be plenty of plants in the tank to help suck those toxins in while the beneficial bacteria builds up naturally.
And I have to respectfully disagree on the high nitrates. Any nitrate levels above 30 or 40 ppm are very stressful to fish, so that could indeed weaken them and make them more susceptible to diseases, so it could cause problems.

You are also right BiscayneBoulevard, the fancy varieties of Goldfish are more prone to genetic problems.


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## dwalstad

Dear Jan S,

Nitrites can cause more problems than hobbyists realize. The bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate are fragile bacteria. For example, they are more sensitive to low temperature than ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. Thus, nitrites can build up. For example, nitrites sometimes cause problems in early spring in goldfish ponds; the fish have their blood hemoglobin converted by nitrites to a brown-type hemaglobin that cannot carry oxygen as it should.

Many scientific studies have shown that nitrates themselves are not toxic to fish-- even at 1,000 ppm. The only problem with high nitrates is that they can be easily converted to nitrites, which are very toxic. However, nitrates themselves are not toxic.

I would like to see the scientific study that shows nitrates are toxic at 30-40 pmm.


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## BiscayneBoulevard

I thought it was Nitrites that were converted to Nitrates? I haven't read any studies, but from everything I have read about fancy goldfish, any Nitrates over 20ppm (or even 10 for the real enthusiasts) can lead to problems, particularly as far as swim bladder is concerned - a lot of goldfish keepers tend to find that their fish may exhibit a bit of "floatiness" if the Nitrates get too high.

Either way, my goldfish tank has not shown any ammonia or nitrite readings for at least 5 or 6 months - it is only the nitrates that are usually high, as I've no plants in there currently to suck them up.

Months ago I was looking into UV sterilisers after continued outbreaks of ich - which have thankfully seemed to stop - however they are simply out of my price range. I am currently trying to upgrade my lighting so that I can fully plant the goldfish tank (which I think will be quite a blow to my bank account as it is - I am a student) and from what I have read on the El Natural forum about the power of plants to suck up excess Nitrates, I think this will benefit my fish more than a UV steriliser currently.

I also find the less fancy varieties - such as ranchus, fan tails and of course feeders - to be a lot hardier than the others. The fish that I have had die were all the extremely fancy varieties - celestials, bubble-eyes and pearlscales - so perhaps it is genetic mutation that is causing problems. Certainly they seem to be far more fragile than the others, and are something of a canary in the mine as far as water quality problems are concerned.


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## JanS

dwalstad said:


> I would like to see the scientific study that shows nitrates are toxic at 30-40 pmm.


Diana, you are correct, high nitrates aren't toxic, just stressful when they start climbing above those levels as I said. And a stressed fish is much more prone to outbreaks of many different things than a healthy unstressed fish would be, so keeping the nitrates low should be a high priority.
As you stated, if you keep your nitrates low, they should never convert back to nitrites, unless something is really neglected in the tank.
As for the cold water or pond aspect of it, I can't comment because I have no experience with it. 



BiscayneBoulevard said:


> I thought it was Nitrites that were converted to Nitrates? I haven't read any studies, but from everything I have read about fancy goldfish, any Nitrates over 20ppm (or even 10 for the real enthusiasts) can lead to problems, particularly as far as swim bladder is concerned - a lot of goldfish keepers tend to find that their fish may exhibit a bit of "floatiness" if the Nitrates get too high.


That is also correct. And goldfish are real waste producers, so you're doing the right thing by keeping your nitrates as low as possible with all of the water changes. 
How is your fish doing, BTW?


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## BryceM

Are you kidding me about nitrates not being toxic? See this article. They mention a study that showed that adult fish could tolerate levels up to 800ppm, but both fry and adults would grow faster when NO3 was less than 38ppm. There is a difference between a lethal dose and a non-toxic dose. Also, they specifically looked at the effects of high nitrate levels on the immune systems of fish.

I'll grant you that ammonia and nitrite are far more toxic, pound for pound, but nitrate isn't so great either. When nitrate levels get high, nitrite will be less efficiently converted to nitrate, worsening the problem. A basic law of chemistry (and biochemistry by extension) is that as the concentration of the products of a reaction (NO3) builds up, the reaction tends to slow down in the forward direction.

The usual bacterial conversion of NH3 --> NO2 --> NO3 slows down when NO3 levels get high. Get it high enough and it will actually go backwards, resulting in more NO2 and NH3 - not good! Maybe we're saying the same thing, but I'd be cautious with the assumption that high nitrates are perfectly safe.


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## BiscayneBoulevard

My fish are doing alright at the moment, but my ranchu is exhibiting a bit of floatiness - I am buying a light from Ebay soon, which means I'll finally be able to plant the tank and get those nitrates down faster. He's always shown a bit of floatiness, but he's starting to bob around at the top when he sleeps now - he never used to do that when there were plants in the tank.


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## dwalstad

guaiac_boy said:


> Are you kidding me about nitrates not being toxic? See this article. They mention a study that showed that adult fish could tolerate levels up to 800ppm, but both fry and adults would grow faster when NO3 was less than 38ppm. There is a difference between a lethal dose and a non-toxic dose. Also, they specifically looked at the effects of high nitrate levels on the immune systems of fish.
> 
> Maybe we're saying the same thing, but I'd be cautious with the assumption that high nitrates are perfectly safe.


Dear Guaiac and JanS,

Thanks very much for letting us see this scientific paper. I appreciate your posting it. Interesting. One of the authors (Stephen A. Smith) has written some nice papers on mycobacteriosis, so I take this paper very seriously.

Fish were exposed to 200 ppm nitrates for 4 weeks and exhibited blindness, some dealth, altered physiology, etc, which the authors have nicely documented. However, sentence on page 5 states, "...our water quality was within the proposed ranges for all water quality parameters _except nitrites_." Bingo!

In otherwords, the fish were exposed to unacceptable nitrite levels for 4 weeks. I speculate that many of the worst symptoms could be due to the nitrites, which are very toxic to fish. I have concluded that hobbyists should keep long-term levels below 0.01 ppm (my book, p. 22).

I absolutely accept that 200 ppm of nitrates is not good for aquacultured fish, because of the much greater chance that some nitrates will be converted to nitrite. This happens due to the very common bacterial process of 'nitrate respiration' (my book, p. 65). Any debris or anaerobic pocket in the tank, and there will probably be bacteria converting nitrates to nitrite.

Now I'm going to confess here that one of my tanks rountinely has nitrates between 40 and 100-- for long periods. Remember I don't change water frequently. Fish are doing fine. I think fish are helped because of plant uptake of any nitrites generated. Plants prefer nitrites to nitrates (my book p. 23). That's why planted tanks like mine have a big advantage over aquaculture facilities like those described in the paper. I can get away with high nitrates.

Someday when I have time I'll start a new "dedicated folder" with more scientific information about nitrates and fish. Can we all hold off about nitrates until then? 

What concerns me right now is that we've gotten side-tracked on a discussion about nitrates, when the real topic is BB's sick fish.

I believe that BB's goldfish were infected with something when he bought them. Or his tank is diseased by earlier fish. Too many times we blame the hobbyist (or "red herring" water quality issues like nitrates) when the real problem is that the fish are sick to begin with. I've found that healthy fish will take quite a bit of abuse-- water quality wise. Sick fish or those chronically infected with MB (mycobacteriosis) will die no matter what you do.

Mycobacteriosis is common in the aquarium hobby. One scientific survey showed that over 40% of 70 dead aquarium fish probably died from MB or secondary infections. (Autopsies showed the characteristic granulomas in the fish's tissues). MB should be considered when any tropical fish dies despite reasonable care and water quality such as BB has described for his tanks.


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## BiscayneBoulevard

BB is a she by the way  

So you think that my fish have MB? That's transmittable to humans, right? Through cuts and things? Fabulous.. well.. the four remaining goldfish I have seem healthy. My ranchu is still a little floaty, though he seems to be this way regardless of water changes (after my last water changes to get the nitrates down, he was still floaty - though he has been this way for a while, and gets on just fine. I've heard of a lot of goldfish that live their whole lives with a bit of floatiness).

Does that mean that my current goldfish are also infected? Ages ago when I looked up fish TB I read that it was only transmitted if the fish ate the other infected fish once they were dead.. is this true, or is being in the same tank enough? Any precautions I should take in dealing with this tank?

Wait... does this mean my fish are doomed?!


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## bigtroutz

Doomed ? Well, I have a tank with MB for a long time now.

The strong fish will fight off the infection. Weakened fish will show symptoms (eg loss of equilibrium) but mostly survive anyway. Only a small number of the fish in the tank seem to ever die and those generally stressed by livebirth in the case of my platys in that tank.

Keep up the usual maintenance to reduce stress and most fish should be fine.


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## BryceM

Fish MB is NOT bubonic plague or ebola. It's actually a very low-virulent organism that affects lots of fish, kills some of the weak ones, and manifests itself in others in various ways. It's mostly an opportunistic pathogen, meaning that it's one of those things that healthy fish are exposed to all the time without getting sick.

Do lots of "warehouse distribution" fish have it? Probalby. Are lots of those same fish stressed out and near death anyway? Absolutely. Does it mean one infected fish will wipe out your tank and send everything belly-up? No, not unless they were circling the drain anyway.


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## dwalstad

BiscayneBoulevard said:


> BB is a she by the way
> 
> So you think that my fish have MB? I've heard of a lot of goldfish that live their whole lives with a bit of floatiness).
> 
> Any precautions I should take in dealing with this tank?
> 
> Wait... does this mean my fish are doomed?!


Dear Ms. BB,

No. I would agree with the other hobbyists that the other fish are not doomed.

Over the years, probably a lot of fish with MB have passed through my tanks. The fish didn't cause long-term problems or infect other fish. However, I have always removed new fish that start to go seriously and irreversibly down-hill (e.g., those that develop shrunken bellies or bent backs) from my tanks.

Frankly, I don't know much about "floating goldfish". If the other fish are fine, it could be that the one fish has a swimbladder malfunction totally unrelated to MB.

Only time will tell, and there's not much you can do anyway. Treatments are useless. In the meantime, I would not worry.

Precautions: I wouldn't clean a suspect tank with a large open wound on my hands or arms. If there is a small open wound or cut, washing hands/arms with soap and water within 30 min should prevent infections.

Good luck!


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## BiscayneBoulevard

Hi Diana,

My other fish feem to be doing just fine, so hopefully the floatiness IS unrelated to MB.. none of the fish that died had bent spines, though one did seem to get hollow belly and swimbladded just before he died.

A while ago I saw some photos of a man with MB infections on his arms - since then I have been very religious with my tank hygiene.

Thanks!


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## SKSuser

Diana,
I posted this on fishgeeks.com forum back in may of '06.


> ... and then I added a pleco, watched him latch onto the glass, and decided all was well. I took my dog for a walk, and came back to find that the bully barb was swimming around in circles and then stoping to pant. The pleco was right where I left him, staring innocently at me with those little beady eyes. The barb's spine appeared to be in an "s" curve. I can't tell if the problem is in his front half, and he's bending his tail around in a futile attempt to swim straight, or if the bend is in his back half, and he's turning his head to see where he's going. Either way, something is wrong with his "directionality," if you will.


I blamed the problem with my barb on the pleco, because the barb was kind of a bully and I know some plecos have spiney needle fin thingies to defend themselves with. Sorry I don't know the technical term.
The "S" curve I mentioned on my barb has recently shown itself on a swordtail bought at the same time, same place. The pleco was also from the same store, which has drilled tanks and a common filter for all the tanks. (You mentioned that livebearers get a bent spine. Is this the sort of bend you're talking about: Looking down on the fish, it appears to be an "s" curve?)
The swordtail is obviously at least 9 months old, based upon when I bought him as a little fry guy. I now remember after noticing from a post on fishgeeks.com, that I had problems getting this sword to eat in June of '06. June is when the rest of my first batch of fish died, by the way... most of them without any outward show of illness. The pleco did develop ich, and so that was where the blame lay. However, my second batch of fish from that store also mostly died. My mollies survived long enough for several spawns, but the offspring and parents have all died (without apparent reason) except for the father and a son.
Nobody on fishgeeks ever did have an expanation for my barb that satisfied me.

About a week ago, I moved my sword to a friend's tank for a breeding attempt with one of his sword females. I blamed the bent spine on the move, and trauma from water from two different cities, but it does smack of the same problem I had with the barb.

Also, one of my friend's livebearers had this "perpetual pregnancy" symptom that was mentioned earlier in this thread.... somewhere before the nitrate discussion. That livebearer died several days ago, and I did a little mini-autopsy and noticed that there was a sandwitch of some partially fertalized eggs between large unfertalized ones.
Needless to say, I'm not happy with the particular LFS we both bought our fish from. 

Blehhhhh, enough background...
Questions:

I asked this further up, but I'll mention it again in case you got bored and skipped down here to the good part.  
You mentioned that livebearers get a bent spine. Looking down on the fish, it appears to be an "s" curve, is this the sort of bend you're talking about? Or is it a vertical bend which gives them a humpy backed or drooping snout appearance from the side?

Does MB ever catch up with a particular fish after this long (5-9 months), or do they always either die or survive within a certain period of time. I'm pretty anal about keeping track of feeding, water quality, and their general health, but my fish have all gradually become listless, shown a loss of interest in life, and then croaked over the last year or so. I thought I'd let them all die off while I'm obsessed with plants, and then get some from the better store where I buy my plants. Its sad though.

I'd like to hear a little more about how this illness particurlarly manifests itself in livebearers.

Can life forms such as snails contract MB and are there any known symptoms? Can they be a carrier from and to fish?

If I were to autopsy chicken little (my swordtail in question) what would I look for to see if he had MB? Would it be visible with the naked eye? I have a microscope, access to surgical tools, and a steady hand. He doesn't look like he'll improve whether its MB or not. 

Sorry, this is incredibly long but I don't know which part to get rid of....


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## dwalstad

Dear SKSuser:

Wow. What a lot of fish trauma. I'm amazed that you and your friend are still in the hobby! It does, indeed, sound like classic MB that is causing all these problems.

I am in middle of preparing a _major_ article on mycobacteriosis for _Tropical Fish Hobbyist_ magazine. TFH has accepted it, and it should come out in June issue. Below, I've tried to answer your questions, but I cannot get into the subject as thoroughly as I do in the article.

Questions:

You mentioned that livebearers get a bent spine. Looking down on the fish, it appears to be an "s" curve, is this the sort of bend you're talking about? Or is it a vertical bend which gives them a humpy backed or drooping snout appearance from the side?

***The bend could be horizontal (like yours) or vertical (hump back). Bent spines can be from other causes (genetic, malnutrition, etc). However, you've mentioned so many troubled fish that this sounds like infectious disease-- not an isolated incident.

Does MB ever catch up with a particular fish after this long (5-9 months), or do they always either die or survive within a certain period of time.

***Fish can be chronic carriers for long periods. One scientific study describes Tilapia carrying the disease for 9 months plus. I bought new Rainbowfish in spring of 2004. It wasn't until Dec 2004 that I started seeing symptoms in other fish that I knew were not diseased.

I'm pretty anal about keeping track of feeding, water quality, and their general health, but my fish have all gradually become listless, shown a loss of interest in life, and then croaked over the last year or so.

***If your fish are carrying MB, what you do (or don't do) won't make much difference. Hobbyists have been blamed for far too long for something that's often not their fault.

I'd like to hear a little more about how this illness particurlarly manifests itself in livebearers.

***Shrunken bellies, and all the things you've already described. There's no definitive signature for MB.

Can life forms such as snails contract MB and are there any known symptoms? Can they be a carrier from and to fish?

***Possibly, but from what I've read, snails are not major transmitters. Theoretically, fish could get it from daphnia, protozoa, snails, etc. But these are minor players, and the world is filled with mycobacteria-- all of which are potentially pathogenic to fish. Fish-to-fish is where I would focus my energy.

If I were to autopsy chicken little (my swordtail in question) what would I look for to see if he had MB? Would it be visible with the naked eye? I have a microscope, access to surgical tools, and a steady hand. He doesn't look like he'll improve whether its MB or not. 

***In _advanced cases_, it does seem like you could see the "pimples" (large granulomas) on the outside of spleen and kidneys. You would need enough experience in dissecting normal fish so that you knew what a normal spleen and normal kidney looked like.

I've heard knowledgeable hobbyists/biologists talk about successfully dissecting the fish and then reported seeing and feeling pimples on infected fish's organs.

Being squeemish, I paid fish veterinarians to do autopsies on my fish. 

Good luck!


----------



## SKSuser

Thanks Diana!
Your answers helped a lot.
In fact, I would probably have given up on the hobby if the mollies had never given birth before they died. Its a neat experience to see something create life in your living room. My persistant B. splendens also kept me going for a while. I still have all of the ones I got since getting back in the hobby.

After the livebearers konked out, I noticed how cool planted tanks were.... and it was all down hill from there as they say.


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## Left Coast DJ

While reading this long, yet very informative thread, I assumed "dwalstad" is a wicked smart fish breeder. But people kept referring to her as Diana. 2+2=4! Dude, I just figured it out! I'm so buying the book.

DJ


----------



## dwalstad

Dear DJ,

Heart-warming post. Thanks for the compliments.

I may be a smart fish breeder in some ways, but I made a very dumb mistake... introducing new fish directly into an established tank.

My knowledge about mycobacteriosis comes from first-hand experience-- one that I do not wish to repeat.


Ms. Walstad


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## bigtroutz

Bent spines (S shape from top) are VERY common in Platys and Swords from excessive inbreeding.

I see it alot in Sunburst Platys but not very much in Red Wag Platys for instance. I have crossed a normal Sunburst with another normal Sunburst and get about 20% spinal deformity in the offspring but when I cross a Sunburst with a Red Wag, I get 0% spinal deformity from the same Sunburst female. So the deformity is apparently a recessive gene combination.

Just for your info, many Platys and Swordtails die after one or two broods - another inbreeding problem, no doubt.


----------



## dwalstad

You brought up an interesting point. Bent spines in inbred fish. Indeed, bent spines can be due to almost anything- malnutrition, injury, mycobacteriosis, electric shock, and genetic problems such as you've described.

One of my Rainbowfish (not inbred and otherwise healthy) developed a severely bent spine. I had it autopsied, and it did not have mycobacteriosis. Veterinarian could not say what caused the bent spine.

It sounds like you have clearly and systematically attributed bent spines in some Platies to another factor (inbreeding and recessive genes). Do I detect a geneticist here? 

That said, mycobacteriosis is considered by experts to be the most common chronic disease of tropical aquarium fish. If a hobbyist is having continuous problems (unexplained deaths and abnormalities), this disease should at least be considered.

Unfortunately, autopsies are the only way to prove (or disprove) mycobacteriosis.


----------



## bigtroutz

dwalstad said:


> It sounds like you have clearly and systematically attributed bent spines in some Platies to another factor (inbreeding and recessive genes). Do I detect a geneticist here?


Sorry, not a geneticist, only 2 semesters of Genetics (which I didn't particularly enjoy)  while on the way to a PhD in Entomology. This is just a hobby for fun but its always gratifying to see science in action.

I like messing around with platy breeding tho and noticed a fair number of deaths in certain tanks due to MB (imo) along the way. The fish I have observed with what appears to be MB seem to either stop feeding or continue feeding but gradually waste away in either case OR show a sudden onset of abdominal swelling and loss of equilibrium. Those in good condition but showing the latter 2 symtoms mostly recovered, while the former set of symtoms was an invariably fatal progression. Some species like platys seem much more vulnerable, especially after dropping a brood, while other species never get sick at all, which is what I would expect from something like MB which is generally present to provide a challenge to fish immune systems.

Since we are not talking about a really large number of cases and I usually did not perform an 'autopsy', I could easily be totally wrong about which disease was involved. Even an autopsy is only an indication of the pathogen; you really would have to isolate and culture the bacteria, etc and/or perform DNA analysis to be more certain, it seems to me. Too much like work for me; where are all those grad students when you need them ? :heh:


----------



## JanS

guaiac_boy said:


> Fish MB is NOT bubonic plague or ebola. It's actually a very low-virulent organism that affects lots of fish, kills some of the weak ones, and manifests itself in others in various ways. It's mostly an opportunistic pathogen, meaning that it's one of those things that healthy fish are exposed to all the time without getting sick.


This is worth reiterating, especially coming from an expert in the medical profession. 

If you do regular tank maintenance and water changes, it should not be a common thing.....


----------



## dwalstad

JanS said:


> This is worth reiterating, especially coming from an expert in the medical profession.
> 
> If you do regular tank maintenance and water changes, it should not be a common thing.....


I'm talking about all the many fish chronically infected with MB that hobbyists buy and that die a few weeks or months later. This is way too common in the hobby. MB infected fish can also introduce infection into an undiseased tank (happened to me and its described on the Rainbowfish Study Group link). Water changes or good maintenance will only slow disease progression in the infected fish.

As to autopsies, the presence of granulomas containing acid-fast bacteria are enough to diagnose chronic MB. Culturing and DNA testing is not necessary, and surprisingly, has been shown to be misleading in some instances. Chronically infected fish have granulomas that you can see visually on the organs. See the bumps on the spleen of this MB-infected Betta (NCSU Vet School in Raleigh NC generously provided it to me). Nocardia bacteria and some parasites cause similar granulomas, so acid-fast staining is necessary to "nail it".


----------



## BryceM

It's a frustrating disease - slow to develop, sometimes active in a host, sometimes dormant, relatively low-virulent, meaning healthy fish only occasionally "catch it". Even infected fish can take months to show symptoms. Unfortunately, the most frustrating aspect is that there isn't anything that you can do to treat it.

If you can't treat it, can't accurately diagnose it without an autopsy, and it takes infected fish months to show symptoms, it really doesn't do any good to know if your fish have it or not. About the only effective measures are to buy from reliable sources - local breeders are probably the best, and to remove seemingly affected fish immediately.

Even using a quarantine tank isn't likely to help. Nobody is willing to QT fish for the several months it would take to see if it develops.


----------



## bigtroutz

dwalstad said:


> As to autopsies, the presence of granulomas containing acid-fast bacteria are enough to diagnose chronic MB. Culturing and DNA testing is not necessary, and surprisingly, has been shown to be misleading in some instances. Chronically infected fish have granulomas that you can see visually on the organs. See the bumps on the spleen of this MB-infected Betta (NCSU Vet School in Raleigh NC generously provided it to me). Nocardia bacteria and some parasites cause similar granulomas, so acid-fast staining is necessary to "nail it".


Thanks for posting the photo; that helps alot. Also for the info on the particular staining technique used, not that I am likely to use it, lol.

Just gives me the willies thinking about it; pardon me while I go wash up :bathbaby:


----------



## dwalstad

guaiac_boy said:


> If you can't treat it, can't accurately diagnose it without an autopsy, and it takes infected fish months to show symptoms, it really doesn't do any good to know if your fish have it or not. QUOTE]
> 
> You're probably right for many hobbyists, but for me the autopsies were invaluable.
> 
> The first two autopsies ($35) told me what was actually wrong with my fish. After all, I didn't know; it could have been something easily treatable. The fact that it was untreatable MB was, of course, a major bummer.
> 
> However, now I knew what the problem was--- bacterial disease. I used UV sterilizers to decontaminate the water and stop water-borne transmission of the pathogen from infected fish to the uninfected. Surpisingly (to me) my fish started to improve; even one with a sore healed up.
> 
> The next four autopsies ($135 total) done last year showed no MB in four fish (no granulomas, no nothing!). It convinced me that MB was no longer active in my tanks. I could relax.
> 
> Was it worth it? For me, it was.


----------



## littleguy

Well this is all very interesting and a bit alarming. But ultimately what is the take home message for me as a regular hobbyist?

For example, I recently bought some dwarf coral platies at a big box chain retailer. They've been in a plant growout tank for the past 3-4 weeks (a Q-tank of sorts). One of the four died within 48 hours of unknown causes, but the rest are very active, energetic, always looking for food, voraciously eating in the morning etc. But I notice their bellies are quite plump. I've never had platies before, so I don't know if they're just little piggies (they are young fish, still growing I think) or if they have a legitimate disease. In the last few days I _think _I can see some blood vessels on their undersides - but then again they are orange fish and maybe I'm being paranoid.

So I read this interesting thread but am left wondering what I should do. For example, I could:
Immediately destroy the fish ("better safe than sorry").
Wait it out, delaying putting them in the display tank ("wait and see"). After a few months if they still look good, put them in the display tank.
Just keep with my original plan and put them in the display tank as soon as it's ready to go ("business as usual"). If I discover they're sick down the road, deal with it then.
What compounds the discussion is that, if indeed the fish are sick:
Will I need to tear down the tank that the sick fish were in? If so, then I would be extremely apprehensive about putting them in the display tank until I was 99.9% sure they were healthy. I would absolutely hate to have tear down and sterilize my display tank that took so long to set up.
Will the plants in the growout tank (the current q-tank) be "infected" and unusable?
Will I have to assume that every other fish in that tank is infected?
Will I have to destroy any snails or other fish that were in the q-tank with the sick fish?
What about any offspring of suspect fish? Are they automatically infected as well? Or can I remove the offspring to a different tank and consider them to be "clear and free" of the disease?
Will the mycobacteria survive in a tank without fish? For example, if a q-tank once housed fish with MB, would I have to sterilize that tank before using it again, or could I just let it go for a week or a month without fish and let it naturally "sterilize"?
Are all my tools & nets infected?
Sorry to be a pain, but in the end I seem to have more questions than answers.


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## BryceM

Steilizing a tank is a hopeless concept - and entirely unnecessary. MB is *NOT* a ravenous plague. It is a low-virulent organism meaning healthy fish have very little chance of getting it. *ALL* of your fish have probably been exposed to it already in their lives, especially if obtained from commercial sources. There's a good chance that some of your fish are innactive "carriers" right now. The best (and only) defense against it is a healthy aquarium with carefull attention to the little fish-keeping details that we've known about for decades.

Platties are normally pretty plump - very plump compared to most fish, even the livebearers. If they're acting healthy, eating normally, and they all have the same overall appearance I'd proceed as usual, _pretending that you hadn't seen any of this_. If one of them is significatly bloated compared to it's brothers, looks unhealthy, and doesn't act "right" then do whatever you think is best - personally I'd dispose of it. There's very little chance they're all equally "infected" exhibiting exactly identical signs of "bloating."

I mean no offense to anyone here, but honestly people, let's be rational about this. People are now in a panic, thinking of exterminating perfectly healthy fish due to something that has been blown way out of proportion. This is not a "new" disease. It's been around for thousands of years. We probably haven't always recognized it in the past yet somehow we've managed to keep our little critters alive and enjoy the hobby. Does it kill fish? Yes. Can it wreak havoc in your tank? Yes. Is there anything you can do about it? No. Does it spread from fish to fish to wipe out a whole aquarium? Probably not, unelss the fish are already stressed. Rant over.

Honestly, DW's best point regarding MB is that those of us who have lost fish to it (including me) have no reason to feel guilty about it. They come sick, they develop symptoms despite our best efforts, they die, we move on. In a tank of 40+ fish I saw MB develop in three zebra danios and one neon tetra. This was over a year ago. The remaining 36 fish are still healthy, still acting normally, and still showing spawning behavior.


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## JanS

guaiac_boy said:


> I mean no offense to anyone here, but honestly people, let's be rational about this. People are now in a panic, thinking of exterminating perfectly healthy fish due to something that has been blown way out of proportion. This is not a "new" disease. It's been around for thousands of years. We probably haven't always recognized it in the past yet somehow we've managed to keep our little critters alive and enjoy the hobby.


Well said. That has been my biggest concern with this whole thread and it would be terrible to have people getting rid of fish because it has just created a wave reaction of panic.

I'm not saying that the original article isn't well written and doesn't have some very helpful information in it - it does  , but not every fish ailment boils down to MB being the cause, so we need to look at the full spectrum when it comes to keeping our fish happy and healthy. 
As Diana stated, all fish ailments can be extremely difficult to diagnose without the use of lab equipment and trained medical professionals, which is why I very seldom even recommend medicating unless you're absolutely positive of what you're dealing with.

BTW Littleguy, you're not being a pain at all and ask some very legitimate questions.


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## SKSuser

I'm speaking as one of the "panic stricken fish flushers." Tee hee.  

I don't think you have to worry about us mass-euthanizing our fish. Diana's points just offer a possible explanation of why fish go along for several months after purchase and then decline and die in a tank that is properly maintaned.


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## dwalstad

littleguy said:


> Well this is all very interesting and a bit alarming. But ultimately what is the take home message for me as a regular hobbyist?
> 
> ***Use precautions when adding new fish to established tanks.
> 
> For example, I recently bought some dwarf coral platies at a big box chain retailer. They've been in a plant growout tank for the past 3-4 weeks (a Q-tank of sorts). One of the four died within 48 hours of unknown causes, but the rest are very active, energetic, always looking for food, voraciously eating in the morning etc.
> 
> So I read this interesting thread but am left wondering what I should do. For example, I could:
> 
> 
> Immediately destroy the fish ("better safe than sorry").
> 
> ***No. I wouldn't euthanize fish that behave normally like these Platies. And I wouldn't automatically assume that fish from "box stores" are more problematic than those from the average aquarium store.
> 
> Wait it out, delaying putting them in the display tank ("wait and see"). After a few months if they still look good, put them in the display tank.
> 
> ***I'd go this route, since you obviously value the fish in your display tank. If these are healthy female platies, they should have babies within a couple months. That's always a good sign. If they stay fat and don't have babies, then I would extend the quarantine. Livebearers usually have babies every month or so.
> 
> Just keep with my original plan and put them in the display tank as soon as it's ready to go ("business as usual"). If I discover they're sick down the road, deal with it then.
> 
> *** You could go this route. If they spread disease to the other fish, I'd hook up a UV sterilizer rather than tear down the tank. This is the route I went with my Rainbowfish. It worked.
> 
> What compounds the discussion is that, if indeed the fish are sick:
> Will I need to tear down the tank that the sick fish were in? If so, then I would be extremely apprehensive about putting them in the display tank until I was 99.9% sure they were healthy. I would absolutely hate to have tear down and sterilize my display tank that took so long to set up.
> 
> ***I don't think sterilization is as important as extending the quarantine time. Other than temporarily adding the UV sterilizer, I did not sterilize my diseased tanks. The disease eventually died out.
> 
> Will the plants in the growout tank (the current q-tank) be "infected" and unusable?
> 
> ***No, but I'd rinse them off with clean water.
> 
> Will I have to assume that every other fish in that tank is infected?
> 
> ***No.
> 
> Will I have to destroy any snails or other fish that were in the q-tank with the sick fish?
> 
> ***No.
> 
> What about any offspring of suspect fish? Are they automatically infected as well? Or can I remove the offspring to a different tank and consider them to be "clear and free" of the disease?
> 
> ***Several times I've raised healthy babies from parents that didn't last long after delivering. The disease caused by the nematode Camallanus was the exception. The babies were as infected as the parents.
> 
> Will the mycobacteria survive in a tank without fish? For example, if a q-tank once housed fish with MB, would I have to sterilize that tank before using it again, or could I just let it go for a week or a month without fish and let it naturally "sterilize"?
> 
> ***It will naturally sterilize. The mycobacteria that cause the disease don't grow very fast, so over time, they get overgrown by normal bacteria. I think the tank naturally clears out the pathogen when infected fish are no longer in it. I don't think chlorox is warranted for the home aquarist. The UV sterilizer is much more effective, and it doesn't harm the ecosystem.
> 
> Are all my tools & nets infected?
> 
> ***Not really. But I'd use common sense and rinse them out with water after using them in a Quarantine tank. It's the number of mycobacteria that counts. A few pathogens left in a net can't do much. But a tank full of sick fish continously shedding thousands into the water is quite another matter.
> 
> Sorry to be a pain, but in the end I seem to have more questions than answers.


No problem. Guaiac is right that there's no need to panic. I am sure that many fish with MB have passed through my tanks over the 50 years I've been keeping fish. They died soon after purchase, and I didn't think too much about it. In some ways, ignorance is bliss. 

Bottom line: Do your quarantine as long as possible. Euthanize fish that are showing clear signs of distress. Its the smart and humane thing to do. Even if these platies do have MB, I would not assume that they will infect other fish. In the rare event that things go from bad to worse, you can always do what I did-- add a UV sterilizer to the tank. I believe this is a more effective route than tearing down tanks and chloroxing them.

Your questions tell me that you are a very careful, conscientious hobbyist. Already you've gone to the trouble to quarantine your new fish.

Quarantining new fish for 2-3 months is worth the trouble. It may not always be full-proof, but it will greatly reduce the chances of disease problems. Moreover, if the platies still look healthy after 3 months, any possible pathogen they might be carrying is probably not very virulent; it may not be able to infect healthy, well-cared for fish.

MB is just one of many (and probably not the worst) diseases that can be brought in by adding new fish directly to established tanks.


----------



## JanS

dwalstad said:


> Quarantining new fish for 2-3 months is worth the trouble. It may not always be full-proof, but it will greatly reduce the chances of disease problems. Moreover, if the platies still look healthy after 3 months, any possible pathogen they might be carrying is probably not very virulent; it may not be able to infect healthy, well-cared for fish.
> 
> MB is just one of many (and probably not the worst) diseases that can be brought in by adding new fish directly to established tanks.


Good points, and once you have them in a q-tank, the time goes pretty fast, so it's not like it's an extra burden. I alway have a q-tank ready and running, and I don't buy fish all that often, so to me it's just part of the routine.

I wish I had been smart enough to set up an extra saltwater tank for quarantine when I got started in that too so I wouldn't be taunted by a darn Mantis shrimp every waking moment of my life now.... :boink:


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## littleguy

Well that's good to hear. Corroborating responses from several experienced veterans, what more can I ask for . Thanks much guiac, jans, sksuser, and diana.

Thanks for slapping me upside the head guiac, I needed that :mrgreen::mrgreen:. I was hoping I might get that response from someone, to keep me from going off the deep end.

Thanks very much Diana for answering each and every one of my questions . I really really appreciate such thorough responses.

Maybe it would be good if we could give an analogy to MB in human terms... The ebola analogy is good at describing what it is _not_; what is one that describes what it _is_? Off the top of my head I can't think of a low-virulent human disease that many people are carriers for but rarely die from.


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## [email protected]

*this might help*

A couple years back I was hit hard with worms and loss a 1/4 of my fish before I figured out what the had. Once I did figure it out I treated with Levamisole, there was not that much info on dosage. Levamisole will also boost the fishes immune system. But know there is more info about it out there here is the most recent site with info about nematode infestations and levamisole treatment.
http://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1
I now treat all new additions with levamisole and have down so for two years now. here is the link to buy levam. 
http://www.petsupplies4less.com/i_016013-1_Levamisole+Soluble+Pig+Wormer+Powder+20.17+gm.html.
Hope this is of some help if not now maybe later.
Angel


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## dwalstad

JanS said:


> I alway have a q-tank ready and running, and I don't buy fish all that often, so to me it's just part of the routine.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Here's some excellent advice folks! It may explain why JanS has been continuously successful with her fish.
> 
> I've had Rainbowfish and cichlids for 10-15 years. They're my precious pets now. Many hobbyists have never had the pleasant experience of keeping undiseased fish. I would like to change the inaccuate perception that fish are disposable and "die anyway"-- no matter what you do.
> 
> My 26 Rainbowfish are precious. I expect every one of them to do well for many years.


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## rs79

Mycobacteria is present in virtually all petshop and all natural water systems. It's only whenfish are subject to environmental stress that can no longer fight it off and develop symptoms.

You should NEVER use antibiotics unless under a vets direction, in an aquarium. Without being too dramatic, you rlife may depend on it. One aquarist has already died.

Please read these:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/
http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/wright/
http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/phage/
http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/

"Not only are antibiotics dangerous to our future health if we create ``super-bugs'' by careless use but misdiagnosis may cause us to kill fish by treatments that have no hope of working." 
- James Langhammer,
past Curator of Fishes at the Belle Isle Aquarium in Detroit.

"The greatest possibility of evil in self-medication is the use of too-small doses, so that instead of clearing up infection the microbes are educated to resist penicillin..." 
- Sir Alexander Fleming,
Discoverer of penicillin, interview with the New York Times in 1945


----------



## Endler Guy

*Fish TB*

My Endlers must have fish TB. I suppose I should order a uv sterilizer immediately and hope their offspring are more resistant. My community aquarium was left with survivors of a mystery illness. Only one fish exhibited any symptoms and it was a male molly who just kept getting thinner and thinner and hung on that way for a while before he died. Everyone else in that tank seemed healthy and still do. They must be resistant.

I got my Endlers from a reputable breeder but put them in the community tank then later moved the original inhabitants to another tank. I had a male and a female Endler die with no symptoms whatsoever. Two females died after looking so gravid with skinny tails that they looked like tadpoles. I watched one die and did a c-section but the babies appeared dead and too premature. It was then, at close examination, that I noticed she had inconspicuous lumps under her skin.

There have been three births and all babies have survived so far. What am I going to do with them all? I suppose I could separate the males and females and let them live out their lives.

Would it be a good idea to euthanize them if they become symptomatic?

What a dreadful disease!


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## dwalstad

*Re: Fish TB*



Endler Guy said:


> My Endlers must have fish TB. I suppose I should order a uv sterilizer immediately and hope their offspring are more resistant.
> 
> There have been three births and all babies have survived so far. What am I going to do with them all? I suppose I could separate the males and females and let them live out their lives.
> 
> Would it be a good idea to euthanize them if they become symptomatic?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Sorry to hear about your Endlers. I wouldn't give up on the babies. I've frequently bred healthy livebearers from parents that died soon after purchase and were probably diseased.
> 
> Also, scientists have shown that the TB transmission in mild cases doesn't infect all exposed fish.
> 
> It sounds like you really want to save your Endlers. I would put all your Endlers without symptoms into a separate tank with a UV filter. Yes, you can euthanize them if they develop symptoms. But be prepared for the fact that they may not.  Many science labs breeding 1000s of Zebrafish have successfully dealt with TB outbreaks by removing symtomatic fish and using UV sterilizing systems.
> 
> Diseased female livebearers (in contrast to egglayers) can transmit TB to her live young while inside her. When I was breeding guppies, I unwittingly got around this problem. I bred a beautiful male from one diseased strain to a female from an undiseased strain (I doubt that the bacteria that cause TB infect sperm.) I developed a healthy strain from the babies and had no further problems.


----------



## Endler Guy

*Re: Fish TB*



dwalstad said:


> Endler Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Endlers must have fish TB. I suppose I should order a uv sterilizer immediately and hope their offspring are more resistant.
> 
> There have been three births and all babies have survived so far. What am I going to do with them all? I suppose I could separate the males and females and let them live out their lives.
> 
> Would it be a good idea to euthanize them if they become symptomatic?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Sorry to hear about your Endlers. I wouldn't give up on the babies. I've frequently bred healthy livebearers from parents that died soon after purchase and were probably diseased.
> 
> Also, scientists have shown that the TB transmission in mild cases doesn't infect all exposed fish.
> 
> It sounds like you really want to save your Endlers. I would put all your Endlers without symptoms into a separate tank with a UV filter. Yes, you can euthanize them if they develop symptoms. But be prepared for the fact that they may not.  Many science labs breeding 1000s of Zebrafish have successfully dealt with TB outbreaks by removing symtomatic fish and using UV sterilizing systems.
> 
> Diseased female livebearers (in contrast to egglayers) can transmit TB to her live young while inside her. When I was breeding guppies, I unwittingly got around this problem. I bred a beautiful male from one diseased strain to a female from an undiseased strain (I doubt that the bacteria that cause TB infect sperm.) I developed a healthy strain from the babies and had no further problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Diana,
> 
> I've seen your guppies in your book and they are exceptionally beautiful!
> 
> I've had no more deaths or symptoms, probably because of the UV filter. Thanks!!! I've decided not to separate the males from the females. I posted a link in your forum about a study where guppies control their own population (only when in a species tank) I'm going to keep a close eye on the water parameters and see if they start curbing their reproduction and start eating their babies. I'll let you know how it goes. As it is though, I've started weighing what I feed them and it was about half of what you feed your 50 gallon tank. So, I've been feeding a little over a gram a day and I've only seen a trace of left-over food on the bottom the next day. If they don't control their own population, I'll get a predator. I have some mollies and mosquito fish in a 10 gallon and have never seen a single fry. There are females, both molly and gambusia, who've obviously given birth but the mosquito fish eat them all - leaving no trace that there was ever a birth...except for the huge female that regained her girlish figure overnight!
> 
> I had left two molly fry in the Endler tank, which is mostly a natural planted tank. They outgrew their siblings in the non-planted tank, which gets a 50% water change once a week. I don't know what's at work here but that's another subject.
> 
> Sorry, I've gotten off topic. I will remove any symptomatic endlers but am increasingly optimistic every day.
Click to expand...


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## rs79

Scheel ("Rivulins of the old world, TFH Press, 1968") has a good write up of Mycobacteria. The authos makes two main points: 1) it's in ALL fish, period. Only when they're under bad conditions does it go anywhere. 2) Hard alkaline water keeps it at bay. It begins to be a real issue in soft acid water.

I recenly saw on the net a fish vet site that claimed Kanamyacin and vitamin B6 would cure it. This is news to me, Even Untergasser ("Handbook of fish Diseases, TFH Press) claims there is no known cure.

As for Endlers, although they've recenlty been described as a separate species there is still some consensus that they're just a population of guppies. The jury's still out on this one.


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## dwalstad

*Re: Fish TB*



Endler Guy said:


> dwalstad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will remove any symptomatic endlers but am increasingly optimistic every day.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for writing with the good news. I am so happy for you!
Click to expand...


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## Endler Guy

rs79 said:


> Scheel ("Rivulins of the old world, TFH Press, 1968") has a good write up of Mycobacteria. The authos makes two main points: 1) it's in ALL fish, period. Only when they're under bad conditions does it go anywhere. 2) Hard alkaline water keeps it at bay. It begins to be a real issue in soft acid water.


Perhaps the more virulent strains were not around or well-known back then. I have hard alkaline water and so does Diana.



rs79 said:


> As for Endlers, although they've recenlty been described as a separate species there is still some consensus that they're just a population of guppies. The jury's still out on this one.


I believe that they are a separate species. There are just too many differences. They don't hybridize in the wild. They have different gonopodial structures and the courting behavior is different. Pure Endler's also do not jump - guppies do. When they do hybridize, you get an amplifying of phenotypes of the parents rather than something in between. I'm sure there's much more but it all points to speciation. There are probably fewer differences between species of mollies, which can also produce fertile hybrids.


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## dawntwister

Has anyone had a platy die with a bloated stomach? I notice she was constipated a few days before death. Thus believe death was due to eating wrong food. Two possible wrong foods are dried plankton and shrimp pelets. Anybody had fish die a few days after noticing constipation?


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## quatermass

People may be interested to know that there is being developed a new DNA test for ornamental fish suppliers to test for over 60 different bacteria, viruses and parasites in a fish shipment that only takes 1.5 days to do.

Sounds like this will force fish farms to be more healthy and supply us with better stock!

See 
News Item on The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia


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## JanS

Hey, that _is_ good news!


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## degordon3000

Hi - I'm new to this forum - was referred here by Diana. I have a question regarding the eradication of pathogens (bacteria, etc) using a UV sterliser. For a 72L tank, would a 9W UV sterliser be good enough? I'm really uncertain and the lowest wattage I can find on ebay is 9W. 

David.


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## dawntwister

degordon3000 said:


> For a 72L tank, would a 9W UV sterliser be good enough?
> David.


dwalstad might know for she uses 1.


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## degordon3000

Hi - sorry to link to your article Diana - I see that you used an 8 Watt UV lamp. I've ordered a 9 Watt UV lamp - the Submariner model from ebay. Should arrive tomorrow and I'll sort out my 16 US Gallon tank.

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf


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## degordon3000

Sorry to double post but I can't edit my last post. I didn't have time earlier to carry out a search on the NPT forum on UV sterilizers but now I've seen the thread below from Diana:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/44327-uv-sterilizers-fish-diseases.html Might be good to have this as a sticky too as it's quite important. It's a mine field out there for new hobbyists and a lot of cheap chinese uv sterlizers are on sale that aren't flow adjustable.


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## degordon3000

degordon3000 said:


> Sorry to double post but I can't edit my last post. I didn't have time earlier to carry out a search on the NPT forum on UV sterilizers but now I've seen the thread below from Diana:
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/44327-uv-sterilizers-fish-diseases.html Might be good to have this as a sticky too as it's quite important. It's a mine field out there for new hobbyists and a lot of cheap chinese uv sterlizers are on sale that aren't flow adjustable.


Hi All

Can somebody give me some ideas about how you would deal with biofilms with MB on the surface water? I'm going to set up a UV sterilizer to help cycle and clean the water of MB and such but what of the MB in the biofilm? Would you use protein skimmers or just paper towel to mop up the biofilms?

I've posted a new thread asking the same question here - http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...biofilm-removal-surface-water.html#post480831


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## mudboots

I was going to start a new thread and found this link. I just had a couple of fish show signs of bacterial hemoragic septisemia (I'm pretty sure I just mispelled that) and ordered some oxytetracycline from fishfarmacy.com after counseling with one of their reps. So far I have lost one, another is looking really bad, and now three others are showing symptoms (reddening of the fins et cetera). I'm new to this disease, and am sadly impressed with how quickly it can spread once established. This also has a lot to do with water quality, as I have a relatively new setup and have been in and out of the substrate with new plants et cetera, fighting the ich that rode in on the back of another fish and stressing the fish out in general. 

So as a word of caution, take things slow and don't get in a hurry. For newcomers, GET A QUARANTINE TANK!!! Otherwise you may just end up with the same mess. It's an ugly affliction and I hope no one else is having to deal with it.


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## dawntwister

mudboots said:


> I just had a couple of fish show signs of bacterial hemoragic septisemia (I'm pretty sure I just mispelled that) and ordered some oxytetracycline from fishfarmacy.com after counseling with one of their reps. So far I have lost one, another is looking really bad, and now three others are showing symptoms (reddening of the fins et cetera).


Could you post a picture?

I had a similar with danio's. I lost a few here and there. Noticed a few had a bulge on their lip. LFS said it was a scrape. Bought a few more fish. Then other fish got bulge on lip and died. Used bacteria fiz with no results. Mela fix seemed to help heal some of the fish.


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## mudboots

Here are some pics of the bact. hemo. sept. My camera would not adjust properly to capture the redness, probably because I don't know how to use it. The thin red lines you see at the bases of the fins are actually quite pronounced in real life, and the fins themselves are tinged red from the blood seeping. You can also see in the pic the veins in the tail in one of the pics that have become unusually visible. Only one fish has died so far, and it went from looking like the pics to quivering a lot and making blind darts around the tank, occassionally ramming into the substrate (pretty ugly to watch). The meds are on the way, but not sure if in time. To my understanding this is contagious and even if I remove these fellas the tank still needs to be treated. I'm certainly not happy about the fact that I've managed to "86" my first inhabitants, but it's a lesson learned that won't happen again.

Fishfarmacy.com recommends 7-10 days of oxytet. antibiotic with 25% water changes each day. This is a 125 gallon aqaurium. Ouch.


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## mudboots

Dawntwitter - Forgot to mention that these also have swollen mouths as you mentioned on your danios. I just realized the pics don't capture their mouth parts.


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## dawntwister

mudboots said:


> Fishfarmacy.com recommends 7-10 days of oxytet. antibiotic with 25% water changes each day. This is a 125 gallon aqaurium. Ouch.


Seems it would be easier and more economical to put the fish in a 10 gallon tank. I'd go to 
Pet Smart and get some Hornwort to set up a 10 gallon tank. Put the tank in a sunny window. Sometimes you can get a 10 gallon for a few dollars on craigslist.org. Buy 1 of those ammonia detectors to fit on the tank. At Rex Griggs site read that with addition of plants a few fish can be added without ammonia spikes.

How many fish are sick? How big are they?

Oh! You probably need to add some more water conditioner.

I had a few that recovered and the sores on the mouth disappeared.


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## mudboots

For future critters I'll definitely have a quarantine. But since two more died last night, 2 look like they will be gone by the time I get home this evening, and the bacteria is already in the aquarium I'll go ahead and treat it, plus do water changes to hopefully remove enough of the bacteria to keep this from happening again. These fish are about 2-3 inches (babies), and there were 5 of them that started bleeding last week.

For water changing, I did another yesterday. I use a Tetra product that calls for 5cc per 10 gallons, and I usually add a little extra because my tap water is high in chlorine. The tank water is fine, though nitrates are a bit high from all of the messing around I had been doing, which is what helped to weaken the poor fellas (too much stress in too short time).

Amazingly, throughout all of this the plainest fish on the planet, Gambusia species, look as healthy as they can be. I thought some of them had ick, but it turned out to be nothing. It's funny that the smallest fish in the aquarium are the toughest, and now I have the largest non-breeder Gambusia tank in Texas (lol)!! BTW - the bristlenose pleco, 3 cories, and upside-down Syn.cat are all doing just fine as well.


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## quatermass

dwalstad said:


> Last summer, one of my Turquoise Rainbowfish had a small TB sore on her side. I put her in a hospital tank containing salt and antibiotics. The sore only got bigger. I put her back in a regular planted tank with lots of dirt. The sore has totally healed up, and she's doing fine as I write this.


Diana,

Hi again.
Interesting coming across your posting recently.

I was wondering if you've done any research of the use of a Walstad tank to reduce the levels of dangerous bacteria?

I've read articles that tell me that the expensive Koi and goldfish fish are kept in muddy ponds to keep them healthy, that certain Koi companies make waste control bacteria products that claim to keep pathogenic bacteria away by the competitive exclusion method. 
That is adding lots of harmless bacteria.

I've used a soil layered tanks for the last 4 years now as I find they generate far more healthy fish.

A soil-layered tank does seem on paper to provide a lot of trace elements that aquatic animals need to grow into healthy animals with hopefully a decent immune system if the water quality and good food is provided as well.

What with the 40,000+ bacteria species, fungi and phages in soil it's a wonder why we don't promote a Walstad tank as being a potential 'hospital' or quarantine tank for our aquatic animals.

I'd love to hear your comments or anyone else on this aspect of setting up a 'Walstad'?

Is it a benefit other Walstad users have come across?


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## odie

So if someone wants to setup a UV sterilzer what is one that is recommended? I have a 125 gallon being setup with a small sump and a canister.

Thanx in advance


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