# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Filter media for El Natural



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I have an Eheim 2213 canister filter I am using and I was thinking I should be making any changes to the media when I perform my next maintenance, specifically removing the bio-media.

I purchased a 2213 in a kit that included quick disconnects, a media basket and a full compliment of media. From the bottom up the media is:
2" of Ehfimech (ceramic noodles),
1" coarse foam disc,
3-4" of Ehfisubstrat (biological media)
1" (QTY 2) fine filter pads.

There was a carbon pad included as well but I removed that back at the start.

I am thinking of removing the Ehfisubstrat. My plants are really not growing too fast, some are still developing quite a bit of algae and my last two tests have shown my NO3 to be zero (or below the range of my tetra test kit). The test previous to the zeros showed 6mg/l of nitrate, but since I last cleaned the filter it’s been 0. Prior to that, I was not testing NO3.

The results of my last tests (which were done at about 9-10PM so PH was waaay up) were: 

PH:	8.75
KH:	9.0
GH:	7.0
NH3/4+:	0.0
NO2:	0.0
NO3:	0.0
PO3-4:	2.0
CO2:	0.48

When I tested the next morning, PH was down a bit to about 8.0-8.5 but still high. (Hard to tell for sure by colour charts, a topic for another thread I think! It’s difficult to get CO2 up at all those high PH readings!)

Question to other forum readers using external filters: What media is in it?

If I remove the Ehfisubstrat, the canister will be about 40-50% empty. Should I just add more "noodles" and foam?

I want to try and leave the ammonia and nitrates for the plants to deal with as Diana suggests in her book. (It seems almost any time I have a question, it’s answered in there somewhere. This one is pg 111/112 & pg 184)


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I don't use that type of filter, but I'd just leave a coarse and a fine filter pad in it to catch particulates.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Same here. I have HOB filters. In my non-planted tank, the HOB is packed solid with sponge. In the planted tank I only have a thin coarse pad for mechanical filtration.


----------



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Yep, me too. I use HOB filters (less expensive) and remove the "bio-filtration" frame, etc. I simply put a sponge in them for mainly mechanical filtration, and the outflow provides some water movement.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

I use small Aquaclear HOB filters mainly for water circulation. I use polyester fiber as a mechanical filter but I think I could easily do without it.

Your question seems to be about filters, but I'll take the liberty of suggesting that you can't grow plants without NO3 in the water column. You also have a high KH and pH, so the amount of CO2 is limited. Perhaps carbon is being added in some other form?

Good luck!

Bill


----------



## krazy (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm using Eheims, I just use the pads, though I'm thinking about some carbon to remove the tint.


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

> Originally posted by Billpers:
> Your question seems to be about filters, but I'll take the liberty of suggesting that you can't grow plants without NO3 in the water column. You also have a high KH and pH, so the amount of CO2 is limited. Perhaps carbon is being added in some other form?


That's kind of the problem I am trying to pinpoint. The plants are not dying, but they are moving *very* slowly.

I've been trying to do a bit of reading to see what I may be doing wrong or can change to help tip things back in favor of the plants. Removing the biological media and allowing plants to process the ammonia and nitrates was my first thought, although more steps will be needed I suspect.

I'm not sure what's going on to raise the PH, it's gradually increased from the initial 7.5-7.75 when the tank was set up a few months ago. 40-50% water changes don't seem to have much lasting effect so it seems something is buffering. I thought perhaps lime or something that was added to the bagged garden soil I used was causing it, but I have some valisneria spiralis (a hard water plant) that are sitting quite stagnant too so I can't say for sure.

Hygro. polysperma that took off initially has stalled, stunted and is growing very small tightly spaced leaves. It seems want to stay the same height, send out roots and pull itself down parallel to the substrate and turn into a hedge.

Some Egeria najas initially put in as 5-6 straight stems has bent over, sent out roots, forked and sent shoots out and turned into a little bushy grove.

My lemna minor is merrily growing though. I removed most of it about 2 weeks ago (from about 100% coverage to less than 10% and it's back up to covering about 85-90% of the surface again!

My anubias nana sent up a bloom a little more than a week ago&#8230;as I write this one of my Otos is dining on the flower that must be starting to go soft. (see attached pic).

I must say though, it is a low maintenance tank&#8230;I'm looking for things to do instead of struggling to keep up!


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

Just some thoughts . . .



> That's kind of the problem I am trying to pinpoint. The plants are not dying, but they are moving *very* slowly.


Slow plant growth is a characteristic of natural tanks. The small picture that you enclosed looks to me like part of a very green, very healthy tank.

My well water has a high pH, so I dilute it with soft, acid water from a local stream. That yields a pH in the mid 7's, which is OK. There are other ways to reduce pH, of course.

It could well be that there is lime in
the "garden soil" that you are using. My first soil-based tank used an enriched potting soil which caused high pH as well as high NO3, high PO4, and high just about everything else. Algae loved that tank. The plants did well, too, for a while.

I have a new tank in which the hygro also liked to creep along the substrate. I replanted those "creepers" and they are now acting normally. I don't know why they do that but I've seen it before.

Hygros and vals need a fair amount of light. How much are they getting?

I guess I've posted more questions than answers.

Bill


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

> Originally posted by Billpers:
> I have a new tank in which the hygro also liked to creep along the substrate. I replanted those "creepers" and they are now acting normally. I don't know why they do that but I've seen it before.


Did you wait for some growth and replant the offshoots or did you pull the main plant up and "reorient" it vertically?



> Hygros and vals need a fair amount of light. How much are they getting?


I have a 96W CF from AHSupply running for 10 hours per day. I recently brought it down from 13 hours just last weekend, since I'd noticed that some of the Hygro leaves were turning a bit yellow or white, and some leaves on my ludwigia repens developed little tiny 1mm holes.

All this made me suspect inadequate nutrients or elements of some sort. I had hoped that decreasing the photo period might slow deformations and perforations due to lack of nutrients.

(I must have read that, although I can't confirm where or why I have that theory in my head, please confirm if I am correct)



> I guess I've posted more questions than answers.


Sometimes in order to answer one, you must answer many!


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi, again.



> Did you wait for some growth and replant the offshoots or did you pull the main plant up and "reorient" it vertically?


I pulled up the new growth, about 4 or 5 plants, separated them, and replanted. All of the hygros in that tank are now growing normally and rapidly. I'm going to have to prune them fairly radically and toss the extras, which I don't like to do, but it seems to be illegal to transfer that plant to another person, I guess to prevent them from growing through the ice in PA or Quebec.

I don't know anything about your tank size or the kind of substrate that you have. 96 watts might be OK or might not be. A photo period of 10 to 12 hours and about 2 wpg is considered adequate. I suspect that you know that. <g>

Do you know what the NO3 and PO4 levels are in your tank?

Bill


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Tested the water tonight with the following results:

PH	8
KH	8
GH	8
NH3/4+	0
NO2	0
NO3	6
PO3-4	0.75
CO2	2.40

The only real notable difference is a drop in PH compared to the last test. I tested at about 10PM at the end of lighting cycle. I know this at a point in the day when PH will be up, but I seem to always get to it at the same time of day, so at least test conditions are consistent.

Tank is a 50G, with .75-1.25 in of soil covered by 1-1.5 in of gravel (sloping up at the back), 96W of 6700K CF w/ Ehiem 2213 filter.

About 75%+ of substrate is planted with valisneria spiralis, ludwigia repens, bacopa monnieri, egeria najas, microsorium pteropus, crypt. wendtii, hygro. polysperma and sag. subulata. And, about 80% of the surface is covered by a layer of lemna minor.
(When I write it all down, there seems to be more plant life than I realized).

It's inhabited by 9 platy (4 different maturities-1 adult-most are 1" or less), 3 Otos and 5 cardina japonica.

Next weekend, time permitting I will be removing the bio media from the Ehiem and adding some pre-filter and foam.

Unfortunately, the ice in QC is starting to form...it's been a very cold week and colder temps are on the way from out west. Winter's here. Nice to have a little bit of tropical life to observe when it's -10C/14F outside.

Ian


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

You have 96 wpg of CF for a 50 gallon tank. That's about 2 wpg, but CF light is more focused than NO light. It could be that the plants that are more removed from the light aren't getting enough light. That would explain the hygro problem.

The fact that the lemma covers 80 percent of the water surface also is reducing the available light.

A planted tank depends on the fish to provide organic nutrients. You have 17 of them, which aren't very many for a 50 gallon, unless the otos are large. Your nitrate level of 6 ppm reflects that. Consider getting more fish and feeding them more. Aim for a nitrate level of 10 to i5 and a phosphate level of 1 or so.

The lemma are also great at consuming nitrates. Reducing the number of those will help.

Many aquarists have too many fish and overfeed them, leading to all kinds of problems. It is interesting that a lot of people who keep natural tanks do the opposite.

Good luck,

Bill


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

> Originally posted by Billpers:
> You have 96 wpg of CF for a 50 gallon tank. That's about 2 wpg, but CF light is more focused than NO light. It could be that the plants that are more removed from the light aren't getting enough light. That would explain the hygro problem.


The CF bulb is about 6-8 inches from the back of the tank (18" in depth), so much of it's light is focused over the back 50% of the tank. But you are correct about the focusing of light, it's noticable when the "band of light" shines down the algae on the sides of the tank.



> The fact that the lemma covers 80 percent of the water surface also is reducing the available light.


This is one of the things I am not sure how to handle. I do thin the l.minor out weekly, but I am quite sure it (along with UV) helped me recover from a green water problem so I am wary of getting rid of it. I recently added sag. subulata to the front of the tank covering most of the substrate that remained visble, when it fills in I will have about 90% of the substrate covered with plant. Maybe it's time to keep the duckweed thinned out to 20-25% for a few weeks to see what will happen.

You advice/observation re: # of fish is very valid. It's still hard to get used to El Natural (compared to the keep your tank pristine method). Almost no water changes, feed lots and leave the p00p for the plants. I think from what I've read/noticed, people who gravitate towards the El Natural method are striving for a balance and we are focusing on not overdoing things, and we wind up under shooting.

When I look at pics of Diana's tanks in her book, there is a lot of inches of fish compared to my tank.

Thanks for your advice.

Ian


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> When I look at pics of Diana's tanks in her book, there is a lot of inches of fish compared to my tank.


Ian, you're on to something. Fish help the plants a lot. More fish means ammonia and CO2. Also, the water in tanks with lots of fish tends to acidify (via the increased nitrification). This helps plants especially in hard, alkaline water.

I'm keeping about 10-12 large Rainbowfish (2-4 inches) in each of my tanks (40, 45, 50 gal).

Every hobbyist needs to find their own balance between fish and plants.


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I plan to remove the bio-media from the filter tomorrow, but I have removed about 50% of the lemna minor and added El Natural CO2 and ammonia enhancement units. I chose the Hemigrammus bleheri models, 12 of them.









I should have a QT tank, but these came from stock that has been in the store since Oct 31 and I've never observed any sick fish in several visits to the store. I've had my eye on them for a while; I've always had a soft spot for tetras, especially ones that school well. They all looked very healthy in store and within about 2 hours had regained all their colouring and were behaving normally, even took a bit of food later in the evening.

So, I've now got about 30-35 inches of small fish, not a lot, but more "fertilizer" nonetheless.


----------



## Harry-Proton (Dec 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by Fishies:
> I have [...] added El Natural CO2 and ammonia enhancement units.


What is it ?

a link, an URL to see ?!?

Thank you in advance


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by Fishies:
> I have added El Natural CO2 and ammonia enhancement units. I chose the Hemigrammus bleheri models, 12 of them.
> 
> 
> ...


That's good that you purchased some more fish. I hope that you enjoy them. Considering that the tank is still lightly stocked, I would feed them well, excessively well, in fact. Let the snails take care of what the fish don't eat.

Fishfood is slowly converted by either fish or snail/bacteria or bacteria alone to CO2 and ammonia for plants.

Be careful if you try to circumvent this natural and typically safe process with purchased chemicals.

My philosophy: The problem with the El Naturale for some former High Tech hobbyists is that it is _just too easy_.

Mr. or Ms. Fishies...you may need to set up another tank or a set of small aquatic vases!


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Diana and Harry-Proton...

Sorry, I guess my wry (?) sense of humor does not translate to email very well. My "El Natural CO2 and ammonia enhancement units" *are* the 12 new Hemigrammus bleheri (rummy nose tetras) I purchased.

(More fish = more CO2 and Ammonia...get it?)

In terms of feeding, a few weeks back, I started to add a extra pinch of food towards the end of feeding, but I crush it up into smaller bits, (almost powder) and release it below water. I hope this lets some extra food settle to the bottom (for snail food and ammonia production ), while ensuring the young platys, c.japonica and otos get some food down at the lower levels.

In terms of additional aquaria to satiate the urges for more "tank time", I have a 5Gal planned for my office at work. (Unfortunately, like the one at home, this tank will not get any sunlight). 

Fishes is a bit vague, maybe I should prefix it with Mr!


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

A small udpate:

I did not remove the EhfiSubstrat Bio media yet. 

I removed most of the lemna minor, there are about 50-100 (4-5 sq in) of them still in the tank in case I want them back to help fight a green water outbreak.

Since I also added fish to the tank, I thought I'd try being a bit scientific in my approach and rather than change several things at once, delay it a week or two to see what happens with less duckweed and more fish. Short answer...not much! My KH is up .5 dH and nitrate went from 6mg/l to 9 (or so, it's hard to guess between 0 and 12.5 on a colour scale).

PH	8
KH	8.5
GH	8
NH3/4+	0
NO2	0
NO3	9
PO3-4	1
CO2	2.55

So, the next step is to pull the filter Bio media and see where things go. Since I may not have time to spend keepng tabs on the tank, I suppose it's best to wait until the post Christmas slow down.

Ian


----------



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I was away from the tank for about a week, and not too much has changed with the plants. Water conditions are fairly stable except -1 drop in both hardness and nitrates rose 3mg/l for the second week..

PH	8
KH	7.5
GH	7
NH3/4+	0
NO2	0
NO3	12
PO3-4	1
CO2	2.25

I was not around to feed the fish for a week so they went with 1 feeding over 7 days. All pulled through except 1 Oto. This is strange because his two tank mates are happily munching on the algae that took off after I removed the lemna minor. So are the platys unless they are after something hiding in the algae.

Yesterday, I removed the Ehfisubstrat from the 2213 filter. I picked up some foam discs to add to take up the empty space but I left the ceramic noodles (Ehfimech) in place. I see Eheim calls it pre-filter, while some other manufacturers call it bio-media. Should I remove this as well? If not, I will leave the tank alone for a week or so and see what happens.


----------



## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

> Originally posted by Billpers:
> Hi,
> 
> You have 96 wpg of CF for a 50 gallon tank. That's about 2 wpg, but CF light is more focused than NO light. It could be that the plants that are more removed from the light aren't getting enough light. That would explain the hygro problem.
> ...


 I have less than enough fish in a 20 ga. tank to nourish plants so I overfeed them because the flakes i use are nutrients to the plants and so far the fish haven't eaten to oblivion and are fine. I hate to buy new fish and jeopardize the fish and plants I have. In my other 20 ga. it is crowded with guppies so I don't have a nutrient problem there. I think I got this info from Ms. Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium.-Paula. Guppies R Fun. PS. Looks like my daughter needs to make a new slide show for me.


----------

