# My new NPT 10g Crypt Jungle



## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

I just set this tank up 3 days ago. I want a nice mostly crypt jungle, but a lot my crypts seem to be slowly melting so far.

I'll start with some stats:

10g tank
eco complete substrate
15w tube that came with the aquarium (this def looks like its in the wrong spectrum, very purple)
18w coralife mini freshwater light
small HOB filter
50w heater

Plants:
bunch of different crypts i took from different tanks at LFS (spiralis, wendetii, dont even know)
the plant was sold to me as red nesea (help ID?)
the purple and green one i believe was sold to me as a hygro (help ID?)
java moss

Fish, etc.:
4 ottos
2 SAE
1 amano shrimp
few baby fancy shrimp (tigers, cherry)

School of mosquito or pygmy rasboras coming soon.










So as i mentioned seems like most stuff is very slowly dieing, this may be pretty typical for a new setup i guess, stress from the plants being moved. that spiralis is really awesome looking but it is slowly losing its nice green color in its leaves. should i find some ferts to does, i think i have some root tabs, pop them in? or just be patient?

And open to critiques on the look of it. 2nd planted tank setup.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sorry to say, but in my opinion, Eco-complete is unsuitable for an NPT, since it's not going to generate much CO2. Also, most Crypt growers indicate that Crypts like a much more organic soil (beech leaf mould was optimal) than what you've got.

The Cryptocoryne "meltdown" you're witnessing sometimes happens with Crypts. No one yet has figured out why. If the Crypts are well-established and THEN they melt, it's no problem. It's happened a couple times in my tanks over the last two decades. Just vacuum up the debris and the Crypts will come back. But your Crypts haven't established themselves. They may or may not survive. 

I also don't like all the rock work in this tank. I don't like seeing large objects covering the substrate. It's too easy for anaerobic pockets to form.

If this tank suddenly recovers, great! But, frankly, it doesn't look like an auspicious start. If you set up another tank, I'd either go "full steam" with a high-tech tank OR read my book thoroughly beforehand.


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## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

I am quite familiar with your school of thought on the NPT system regarding soil substrate, etc. And I have a tank setup almost strictly to your style. I am a firm believer in experimenting, and I use the word style, because I do not believe that your methods are necessarily the end-all only way of doing an NPT (Unless on this forum NPT happens to mean Diana Walstad style). I have seen tanks that people would not believe are done without CO2 with eco-complete and I modeled my tank after one of these, a crypt jungle set up by my coworker.

I considered using soil again but purposefully opted for eco-complete, largely because of the simple fact that I have no where to store an opened half bag of soil (in my college apt) and because I have seen eco-complete work.

I was very excited to see that The Diana Walstad took the time to reply on my thread by was quickly very sorry to see that you suggested, in not so many words, only that I tear it down and do it your way. Of course my experience is a drop in the ocean compared to yours but I still think it can work this way too.

I am still holding out hope and closely monitoring, and hopefully others will chime in with some suggestions on how to get this non-walstad NPT going.

Thank you nonetheless for your response.


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## Hubert (Feb 2, 2008)

Please don't take it the wrong way, I think Diana was just trying to be helpful. Here we tend to refer to NPT as having a soil substrate of some sort, either with or without a filter. If there is a filter, than the purists would prefer that it had no filter media in it besides a coarse sponge. However, everyone seems to have their own take on this and that, so we certainly don't all have cookie-cutter aquariums!

I have a feeling you might just be having some bad luck with the crypts. You could try another tube I guess. What is your photoperiod? What are the levels of ammonia, nitrite etc? The water looks pretty clear and if your fish are happy then it probably isn't too bad. I'd say persevere and see what happens. Maybe get some cheap fastgrowing plants (maybe some hornwort?) in the meantime until the others grow more established.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Mpagri,

My first NPT was a mess. I used a rich substrate, like you did, and I ended up with the same result - an algae-infested tank and dying plants. After 3 months I tore it down, and I am better off for having done that. 

Eco-Complete contains nutrients that it releases into the water. In a high light tank this can be a good thing - maybe - but if the plants don't need all of that nutrition, a mess will develop.

Here's a link that describes Eco's nutrients: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/12
It is not the kind of stuff you want in a NPT.

Perhaps your friends who succeeded with Eco in a low light environment planted the tank more heavily, or maybe they used less Eco, or maybe they had some faster growing plants that consumed those extra nutrients. There are a lot of variables.

My recommendation to you is to salvage what you can from that tank and start anew. If you have to use Eco, don't use as much of it, and add a lot of fast growing plants.

I think you would be better off with a soil substrate.

Good luck!

Bill


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## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

Can someone expand on the statement 


> Eco-complete is unsuitable for an NPT, since it's not going to generate much CO2


Is that saying that the plants will not grow fast enough to consume the excess nutrients due to lack of CO2? Would excess nutrients, caused by the ecocomplete, cause my plants to die? Wouldnt that just create algae problems?

What I am thinking is that the plants have not been in the tank long enough to even care too much about nutrient deficiency (or excess), I think whats going on is that the plants were shocked during the move into the new tank and that is what I'm trying to recover from.

I did some more research online and found that crypts are very sensitive to being moved, especially into different water params. On aquabid I found that most vendors ship their crypts without leaves at all because they say that the old leaves will fall off as the new plant adapts to new conditions (I am praying this is what I am going through). Should I cut off all the old halfway dead leaves, I think that will allow the plant more energy to create new leaves.

I'm *still* holding out hope. Even though the tank looks worse day by day.


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## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

I am pretty sure i am seeing some new growth on my balanse and spiralis. I dont think any of the wendetii will come back though. I think I may have nuked the tank slightly when I dosed some flourish, the new leaf tips are a little burnt, is that a correct assessment? I should have just been patient. 

Sorry for the horrible spelling on the plant names, too lazy to find the corrections.


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## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

For anyone who may happen to be still following and gaining any knowledge from this thread, pretty much ALL my crypts have put out new leaves now, the leaves are of course still tiny but the new growth is AMAZING. on the surface it looked as though the entire plant died, but it seems that my research was right and they dropped all the old leaves and are now putting out leaves better adapted to my tank. 

Now that the crypts are settled in, we'll get an idea as to how well the eco complete works. 

I'll put up some pictures tom, but may be difficult as i dont have a proper macro lens for my camera. (only a 55-200mm right now, which is almost useless for aquarium photography)


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Glad to hear your crypts are making a comeback. I've had straight Eco Complete work quite well for a crypt and fern tank. I later changed to soil under Eco Complete and I found that my plants grew better for me.

I like the dramatic effect of the rocks. As your crypts establish they'll send roots all over including under the rocks so that should help keep anaerobic areas to a minimum. I'm looking forward to seeing how your plants fill in and soften the look of the rocks.


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## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

An update:










The purple plant definitely is meant for a more high-tech setup, it is growing VERY slowly, and seems to be dieing faster than it is growing at this point.

The red plant (red nesaea) I believe is the same fate as the purple in terms of best in high-tech. but it is doing better.

That crypt spiralis hasn't quite bounced all the way back yet, though its slowly on the way. i sure do miss it though, the wildness of the leaves all over was awesome.

I must be doing something right though:



















whoops original got lost - heres the tank first set up:


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