# This isn't a bug but a question



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

I presume that the numbers at the bottom of each nutrient is a recommendation on the best levels.

I guess that 10 - 20 PPM of nitrates might be good for plant growth but the recommended level for nitrates in drinking water in less than 10 PPM. I would suggest not drinking water with nitrates at this level.

Is 10 - 20 PPM of nitrates found where plants are growing successfully in the wild?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Is 10-20 PPM nitrates found where aquatic plants grow in the wild? Usually nitrates are barely measurable in the wild. Almost always less than 1 or 2 ppm. I tested San Marcos river water and found no measurable nitrates (that means less than 1ppm) with a LaMotte kit, but the river was loaded with healthy looking plants.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*Well, that's kind of what I expected*

So why are the recommended levels of K and NO3- so high on the fertilator?

My goal is a biotype aquarium featuring discus in a planted setting. I don't want all that NO3- It goes against everything you would expect in a natural setting.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

*Re: Well, that's kind of what I expected*



ray-the-pilot said:


> So why are the recommended levels of K and NO3- so high on the fertilator?
> 
> My goal is a biotype aquarium featuring discus in a planted setting. I don't want all that NO3- It goes against everything you would expect in a natural setting.


not necessarily, nitrates and other water parameters vary from place to place even from times of the year especially when your talking about freshwater biotopes as opposed to saltwater, freshwater environments go through seasons. If you test the waters of south Florida's freshwater streams you will notice crystal clear clean water, high GH and no more than 2 ppm of nitrates at any given time. This is mainly becuase of the VERY VERY heavy plant load that consumes Florida's riverbeds consuming nitrates faster than they can be distributed. but if you test the black water streams of south Americas amazon (where discus come from). you will notice extremely higher TDS readings, way lower GH and (getting back to the question) nitrates anywhere from 5 to 30 ppm depending on the season. A nitrate load of 10-20 ppm will no be detrimental to the health of a discus.

as long as you have a decent plant load to consume nitrates as they are dosed you will not have any problems. if your worried about dosing too many nitrates try dosing half the recommended amount and just increase your dosage when (or if) you notice any plant deficiency's. nitrates deficiency is always a clear indicator that your nitrates are at zero by the end of the day leaving your discus stress free. however there a better way to see where your nitrates are and adjusting your dosage accordingly....... BY USING A TEST KIT


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*A question*



jazzlvr123 said:


> but if you test the black water streams of south Americas amazon (where discus come from). you will notice extremely higher TDS readings, way lower GH and (getting back to the question) nitrates anywhere from 5 to 30 ppm depending on the season. A nitrate load of 10-20 ppm will no be detrimental to the health of a discus.


Can you point me somewhere to document this? It kind of goes against what I've read.

BTW I have a nitrate test kit and do use it so you don't have to shout.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi ray-the-pilot
Jazzlvr123 is right. Additionally, just for your information, there are cities with tap water at 30 ~ 50 ppm of NO3 and people still drink it. 

Now back to your plan. Running a planted discus aquarium is not easy. These fish are large and produce tons of waste, mostly NO3. Even if you plant 100% of the surface and setup continuous water change you still will have a hard time to keep NO3 low. So don't worry, it's normal.

Edward


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*NO3- is not good for you*

I didn't say Jazzlvr123 was wrong. I said "it kind of goes against what I've read" which is still true after you say it.

Since this is the Science of Aquatic Fertilizing board doesn't it seem appropriate to ask for a reference?

BTW I don't doubt that people are drinking water with a lot of nitrates in them. It is a common water pollutant. In my town, if the nitrates were as high as you indicated, the town would have to send out a report to everyone who uses their water indicating that the water is out of compliance with EPA guidelines. They would also have to come up with some way to fix the problem.

For humans and animals NO3- has no benefits and can only produce harm. So putting it in your aquarium is a compromise at best. You should try to keep it as low as practically possible.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: NO3- is not good for you*



ray-the-pilot said:


> I didn't say Jazzlvr123 was wrong. I said "it kind of goes against what I've read" which is still true after you say it.
> 
> Since this is the Science of Aquatic Fertilizing board doesn't it seem appropriate to ask for a reference?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I can't resist this: Do you have a reference for that last statement?

Tom Barr has done extensive experimenting with nitrates at various concentrations, and concluded that up to well beyond what we might see from fertilizing, excess nitrate does no harm that is visible. Using the EI fertilizing method could possibly cause you to see 40 ppm of nitrate on some occasions, so he tested at (as I recall) double that amount. Like any salt, keeping the concentration down to what is needed is going to be a good idea, but that doesn't mean a big problem will occur if you don't. (My opinion - no reference.)


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Higher nitrates in the aquarium than you would ever find in nature are not harmful, possibly up to 80 or more ppm. The reason for keeping them higher than in nature is that in the aquarium you have a lot of plant biomass in relation to the amount of water. In nature there usually is a much much smaller plant biomass in relation to the amount of water. In nature, even if there is only 1 ppm nitrate in the water, it constitutes a large amount of nitrates relative to the amount of plants, and the plants would take a long time to draw down this amount to a level where they couldn't pick up enough to maintain a normal growth rate. In the aquarium, on the other hand, they could draw down 1 ppm overnight to such a low level that they would soon become deficient.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Quote from hoppycalif: "Sorry, I can't resist this: Do you have a reference for that last statement?"

Re:rtp statement: "For humans and animals NO3- has no benefits and can only produce harm. So putting it in your aquarium is a compromise at best. You should try to keep it as low as practically possible."

Use your search engine on "nitrates" "water" and you'll get lots of hits.

Here is something from Penn State that talks about the negative heath effects of nitrates:

www.water-research.net/Waterlibrary/privatewell/nitrate.pdf

I cannot prove that there are positive helth effects from nitrate for humans and animals because it is impossible to prove that something that does not exist, does not exist. All you can say is there is no evidence to support it. So I'll modify my statement to say, "There are no known benefits to animals from nitrates."

If you can find some evidence to support the fact that nitrates are beneficial to animals I'll change my statement.

I'll make one more statement about this:

If I were growing corn in Iowa, I wouldn't be worried about harming my corn having more nitrates in the soil than the corn can immediately use. I would be worried about what all those nitrate are doing to the soil, groundwater and local animals. I would use the lowest amount of nitrate as practical to maintain my crop. (BTW, I'd be saving money as well).


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*A question for HeyPK*



HeyPK said:


> In nature, even if there is only 1 ppm nitrate in the water, it constitutes a large amount of nitrates relative to the amount of plants, and the plants would take a long time to draw down this amount to a level where they couldn't pick up enough to maintain a normal growth rate. In the aquarium, on the other hand, they could draw down 1 ppm overnight to such a low level that they would soon become deficient.


I can agree with this. So if you start with 10 ppm in your aquarium and the plants draw the level down to 9 ppm your still way ahead? No?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: A question for HeyPK*



ray-the-pilot said:


> I can agree with this. So if you start with 10 ppm in your aquarium and the plants draw the level down to 9 ppm your still way ahead? No?


Growing plants will consume a lot more than one ppm of the nitrate in the water. If you start with 10 ppm you might be able to keep from depleting all of the nitrate over 24 hours, providing your light level isn't too high, or unless you starve the plants of phosphates or carbon. It isn't so much the ppm of nitrate in the water that is involved, but the total amount in the water that is accessible to the plants.


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## FobbyBobby23 (Mar 8, 2005)

Well, in the reference you linked, it said that in general, "consumption of nitrates in drinking water does not pose a significant health risk to the adult population." 

So while we may not benefit from nitrates, it doesn't mean that their presence is detrimental to organisms, as long as it is isn't a ridiculously extreme amount I am guessing. 

And like the other posters have pointed out, our tanks aren't large bodies of water. We can't replicate nature 100% with only 50, 75 gallons of water, especially when at most, we will do water changes every day. The sheer differences in water volume just about changes everything, as pointed out by hoppy and heypk.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*Re: A question for HeyPK*



hoppycalif said:


> Growing plants will consume a lot more than one ppm of the nitrate in the water. If you start with 10 ppm you might be able to keep from depleting all of the nitrate over 24 hours, providing your light level isn't too high, or unless you starve the plants of phosphates or carbon. It isn't so much the ppm of nitrate in the water that is involved, but the total amount in the water that is accessible to the plants.


I think you've reached the nub of the problem. Let me relate a story:

Supposedly Maryland farmers produced more pounds of chickens for a big marketer by doing the following:

They tied each one of their chickens up so that they had a feeding tube down their throat. Their feet were tied up so that when they defecated it went directly on to a conveyor belt to be collected. Each day they were given the right amount of food and water to get them to grow as fast as possible. The fecal material was carried of right away to prevent disease and to be used as useful by product. Every few hours the chickens were given an electric shock to create muscle contractions which increased the size of the breast and legs.

OK that may be the way to scientifically increase biomass but is that what we want to do in our aquariums?


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*To:FobbyBobby23*



FobbyBobby23 said:


> So while we may not benefit from nitrates, it doesn't mean that their presence is detrimental to organisms, as long as it is isn't a ridiculously extreme amount I am guessing.


Here is a fact. 10ppm is the same in a 1 gal tank and a 1,000,000,000 gal reservoir. If 10 ppm is bad for human children what do you think it will do to your baby fish?

Now I do not think that human children = baby fish; however, there is no benefit for fish from high nitrates. Why do you want to use a lot of the stuff and why would you want to throw a lot of it down your drain?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: To:FobbyBobby23*



ray-the-pilot said:


> Here is a fact. 10ppm is the same in a 1 gal tank and a 1,000,000,000 gal reservoir. If 10 ppm is bad for human children what do you think it will do to your baby fish?
> 
> Now I do not think that human children = baby fish; however, there is no benefit for fish from high nitrates. Why do you want to use a lot of the stuff and why would you want to throw a lot of it down your drain?


If 10 ppm is bad for human children that doesn't say anything at all about how or if it affects baby fish. The reason we want to use a lot of the stuff is to help our plants grow well. In a fish only tank it makes good sense to keep as little nitrate in the water as you can, but in a planted tank that isn't a good way to grow plants. A lot of people do keep nitrate levels well above 10 ppm in their tanks. I haven't read anything that convinces me that they are damaging their fish by doing so.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

All this talk about high nitrates while my fish are spawning like crazy!! I had to get rid of my kribs because I couldn't control their population! I have gravid danios running out of my ears. My mollies are procreating like flies. You don't get all that procreation from sick or unhealthy fish! The babies all live if not eaten. I don't think the nitrates are hurting anything! And... that's just the population explosion from my tank!!

BTW if you don't want to dose nitrates, then don't, just don't liken dosing them to your chicken story. I don't see how it's at all the same thing..:-s


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Some time ago Tom Barr pointed out that we are much more like farmers than like conservationists, who try to maintain purely natural environments in their tanks. I have yet to see a photo of a natural aquatic plant setting that I would be willing to duplicate in an aquarium in my living area. My goal is to have a tank of growing plants that I enjoy looking at, watching what happens as they grow, and doing what I am willing to do to enhance that experience. Other people have other goals and they will treat their tanks differently from what I do. I see no reason to criticize them for doing so, nor for them to criticize me for what I do. This is a hobby, not a calling.

I do object to people who dye fish, or who intentionally breed fish so malformed they must live painful lives. And, I think it is important not to subject fish to constant stress by overdoing CO2 injection. But, fertilizing plants with concentrations that have not been shown to be problems for fish is a different thing. This is just my opinion though.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*Everyone has their own plan*

Hoppy, I think you are right, the difference is this.

Some people like to look at nature in a garden. It is cut and manicured. Chemicals are used to control insects and fertilize the plants. Everything is proper and in its place. Birds and squirrels come to your feeder. They even breed in the trees nearby.

There is nothing wrong with this but for me it is not very natural.

There are other people who like to live in a wilderness. Nothing is cut or polished everything is in the rough. For some people this is a lot more interesting because unexpected things happen there.

In my aquarium, I have four species of fish. Three are currently breeding (Neon Tetra's, Oto Cats and Marbled Hatchet Fish). I have three species of plants. Two are getting weedy (Pigmy Chain Sward and Corkscrew Val). They share the space with quite a bit of the "dreaded algae."

Now I realize that my tank can never be a wildlife preserve, it is too small a biospace; so, I expect to have to feed my fish and plants something. But I would rather do a minimal amount of chemical processing. In fact, I'd rather do it in a less than consistent way to mimic natural changes.

BTW despite the algae a lot of people are impressed with my tank especially my wife who witnessed my Oto,s spawning from a ringside seat 12 inches from the tank front!


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Well, that's kind of what I expected*



ray-the-pilot said:


> My goal is a biotype aquarium featuring discus in a planted setting. I don't want all that NO3- It goes against everything you would expect in a natural setting.


The easiest way to achieve the goal would be as TexGal said, "...if you don't want to dose nitrates, then don't...".

There's nothing wrong with dosing the bare minimum fertilizer or not dosing anything at all. It's your right to enjoy your aquarium the way you want to and to provide your fish with what you believe to be a representative biotype.

In the same way, it's my right to dose 30ppm of whatever nutrient so I can have what I believe to be an unnatural planted setting that I believe to be aesthetically pleasing.

No harm, no foul. You like your aquarium, I like mine. 

-Dave


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*Davemonkey you can do whatever you want*

However, dumping all those excess nitrates into the waste ultimately results in pollution of everyone's ground water. It is also harmful to your fish.

Here is a link to the Yamato Green site (BTW I do not use Yamato Green):

http://www.yamatogreen.com/plantnutrients101.htm

Check out the photos of the planted aquariums that follow their plan. (Pretty impressive don't you agree?) Here is what they say about N:

"Nitrogen (N): An essential part of all living cells. Must be present for protein synthesis. Nitrogen is an important part of chlorophyll (the green pigment in plants). Nitrogen is usually provided to plants in the form of nitrate, and is usually deficient in tapwater, where it is considered a contaminant. Aquarium plants require about 5-10 ppm nitrate for adequate growth."

If you can improve the health of your fish, reduce pollution in the environment, spend less on fertilizers and still get great results; wouldn't it be worth thinking about?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: Davemonkey you can do whatever you want*



ray-the-pilot said:


> However, dumping all those excess nitrates into the waste ultimately results in pollution of everyone's ground water. It is also harmful to your fish.


I use the water from my aquariums to water my container plants on the deck. So, any excess fertilizers in the water feed the plants on my deck. What I dump into the waste water routinely contains lots of organic "fertilizers", which is why my city has a sewage treatment facility. I think there are lots of environmental problems that need solutions, but I have a hard time seeing aquariums as one of them.


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