# Water movement or not???



## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm probing some side of the EL-Natural way that leave me confused.

*1: it was the soil or no soil????*
*Conclusion:* Soil will provide a more natural way to feed our plants, less nutrients in the water column accessible by algae and the anaerobic/aerobic stratas will permit completed devellopment of the plants (root hair)

*2 : Use of Undergravel filter UGF good or bad???*
*Conclusion:* Not good, symply by experience of people and by facts. UGF will inhibited the anaerobic strata
*(not sure yet with a very small flow or even only for a plenum (empty space) where you can add nutrients if needed???)
Need a little push here to be convinced...*


*3 : Water movement or not???*
It's about water movement... It seem that the natural way do not encourage a good water movement???
What are the reason behind this when we know that good water movement will decrease the Prandtl boundary and permit the plants to suck up more nutrients from the water column and a higher redox will decrease the availability of algae (and plants) to process iron and other metals, help the nitrifying bacterias doing their work with nitrite and producing CO2 (in the surface soil and filter mass) and keep our fishies in a conscient state.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I think there is a difference between water movement, (circulation) and surface agitation, splashing. It is the latter that I try to avoid.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thank you Robert for your clarity and brevity.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Thanks! Tell me if I am wrong Diana, or if there is more to it, but surface agitation tends to burn off C02, and in a low tech tank the object is to conserve as much C02 as possible. Good water circulation below the surface however has all the benefits mentioned above.

A good example is growing plants out doors in tubs. I had bunches of stem plants in outdoor tubs thinking I would take advantage of the good sunny weather. Light was certainly no issue since it got direct sun from sunrise to sunset, but the water was compltely still. The tubs filled up with algae and many of the stems turned soft. Except for the plants that have evolved in still water, the conditions around still water are not favorable for many plants.


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

I don't think that a little surface agitation is necessarily a bad thing. As an example, I just added a supplemental canister filter to my 4' tank since plant growth was getting dense enough that it was diffusing water movement beneath the surface. Anyway, I fabbed up a spraybar that is 30" long and shoots out from the rear wall of the tank, directly across the surface. There is now a gentle amount of surface agitation, but not to the point of bubbles being induced into the water below. 

Anyway, I would swear that my plants are growing faster and that's the only thing I have done differently. I do notice that the CO2 system is staying on for longer intervals during the day and guess that's due to the pH drop the water de-gassing more rapidly. In my case, some surface movement seems to have helped.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well you are injecting C02, so you are not running a low tech tank, at least not by the standards generally in this forum. Since you are injecting C02, you can make up for any loss, but it is all relative. The amount being de gassed is subjective to the amount of surface agitation and other factors most likely, but in a low tech tank without c02 injection, the goal is to conserve every fraction of C02 in the aquarium that is being produced by fish, animal, bacteria respiration and decaying organics. So you would avoid any heavy surface agitation, set filter outflow below the water surface, and any additional pumps for greater circulation below the water surface as well.

There is also another school of thought that goes way back to the original so called "dutch aquarium" that had no filtration at all. I do not think this is used by much of anyone any more and particularly not the dutch. The modern dutch aquarium refers to an old tradition of aquascaping plants, not filterless tanks.


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

Robert Hudson said:


> Well you are injecting C02, so you are not running a low tech tank, at least not by the standards generally in this forum. Since you are injecting C02, you can make up for any loss, but it is all relative. The amount being de gassed is subjective to the amount of surface agitation and other factors most likely, but in a low tech tank without c02 injection, the goal is to conserve every fraction of C02 in the aquarium that is being produced by fish, animal, bacteria respiration and decaying organics. So you would avoid any heavy surface agitation, set filter outflow below the water surface, and any additional pumps for greater circulation below the water surface as well.
> 
> There is also another school of thought that goes way back to the original so called "dutch aquarium" that had no filtration at all. I do not think this is used by much of anyone any more and particularly not the dutch. The modern dutch aquarium refers to an old tradition of aquascaping plants, not filterless tanks.


Wow, I wasn't really sure what it took to grow plants, how gas in water worked, or what a Dutch tank was, but now I'm sure. Thanks for straightening me out on that.


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Water movement...*

Thanks,

*Water movement (circulation) -> Good for the reasons:*


> we know that good water movement will decrease the Prandtl boundary and permit the plants to suck up more nutrients from the water column and a higher redox will decrease the availability of algae (and plants) to process iron and other metals, help the nitrifying bacterias doing their work with nitrite and producing CO2 (in the surface soil and filter mass) and keep our fishies in a conscient state.


*Surface Agitation -> Bad*

Loss of CO2. but can be Ok if very little agitation.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Glouglou said:


> I'm probing some side of the EL-Natural way that leave me confused.
> 
> *1: it was the soil or no soil????*
> *Conclusion:* Soil will provide a more natural way to feed our plants, less nutrients in the water column accessible by algae and the anaerobic/aerobic stratas will permit completed devellopment of the plants (root hair)


Also, soil provides all the beneficial bacteria you need to help further in breaking down wastes produced by fish. This is why it's possible to stock an NPT tank just hours after setup w/out having to let it cycle.



> *2 : Use of Undergravel filter UGF good or bad???*
> *Conclusion:* Not good, symply by experience of people and by facts. UGF will inhibited the anaerobic strata
> *(not sure yet with a very small flow or even only for a plenum (empty space) where you can add nutrients if needed???)
> Need a little push here to be convinced...*


Yes, that's what I always heard. As I also understand it, UGFs pulls nutrients into and right out of the substrate w/out giving the plants enough time to use them up. I've read that you can let a lot of mulm accumulate in the UGF, but if that happens, my impression is that the water flow would be impeded until there was little to no flow thus defeating the purpose of the filter.



> *3 : Water movement or not???*
> It's about water movement... It seem that the natural way do not encourage a good water movement???
> What are the reason behind this when we know that good water movement will decrease the Prandtl boundary and permit the plants to suck up more nutrients from the water column and a higher redox will decrease the availability of algae (and plants) to process iron and other metals, help the nitrifying bacterias doing their work with nitrite and producing CO2 (in the surface soil and filter mass) and keep our fishies in a conscient state.


Water movement is important but not essential. If you check out others experiences, people have had success with and w/out water movement. I have a 20 gal NPT w/ no water circulation in which there is excellent plant growth. I also have a 30 gal with a powerhead for circulation in which there is also very good plant growth. I think there might be a slight advantage to circulation insofar as circulation would help bring nutrients to plants.

As regards surface agitation, yes, most agree that it should be avoided or at least reduced as much as possible. That being said, HOB filters in my experience produce a good amount of surface agitation and many people use HOB filters in their NPT tanks w/ success. Also, a bit of agitation a the surface would help to reduce surface scums which can be unsightly to some people. In all, as has already been said, it should be kept to a minimum but does not have to be totally elimitated. On the other hand, surface agitation, in rare circumstances should be promoted. For example, if you find that in the morning your fish are gasping at the surface b/c of low O2 and high CO2 that accumulated overnight, then surface agitation should be used to help release the extra CO2 that is suffocating the fish. That's pretty rare though I would think.

-ricardo


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Wow, I wasn't really sure what it took to grow plants, how gas in water worked, or what a Dutch tank was, but now I'm sure. Thanks for straightening me out on that.


Maybe you should buy a book... I can be sarcastic too! Honestly, I have no idea what prompted that comment. If I offended you in some way, I apologize. I thought I was just answering your statement directly. It seems simple to me. When you are not injecting C02, you want to conserve as much as possible. When you are injecting C02 it is not critical. Does that make sense Erik?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Robert Hudson said:


> Thanks! Tell me if I am wrong Diana, or if there is more to it, but surface agitation tends to burn off C02, and in a low tech tank the object is to conserve as much C02 as possible. Good water circulation below the surface however has all the benefits mentioned above.
> 
> A good example is growing plants out doors in tubs. I had bunches of stem plants in outdoor tubs thinking I would take advantage of the good sunny weather. Light was certainly no issue since it got direct sun from sunrise to sunset, but the water was compltely still. The tubs filled up with algae and many of the stems turned soft. Except for the plants that have evolved in still water, the conditions around still water are not favorable for many plants.


Aha! Here's another issue besides water circulation.

Unless those plants were emergent AND acclimated to direct sunlight, sunlight will burn or kill them. All that UV!!

Submerged plants are basically shade plants. Sunlight is wasted on them. It may harm them and only stimulates algae.

I would keep a protective cover layer of floating over your stem plants. Or keep the stem plants in a shaded area. Even floating plants (unless they come from outdoors) must be acclimated a few days to full sunlight.


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

Robert Hudson said:



> Maybe you should buy a book... I can be sarcastic too! Honestly, I have no idea what prompted that comment. If I offended you in some way, I apologize. I thought I was just answering your statement directly. It seems simple to me. When you are not injecting C02, you want to conserve as much as possible. When you are injecting C02 it is not critical. Does that make sense Erik?


T'sall good... No harm, no foul.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I hope so! I don't want anyone else mad at me! :axe:


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Wow, I wasn't really sure what it took to grow plants, how gas in water worked, or what a Dutch tank was, but now I'm sure. Thanks for straightening me out on that.


 I don't read any sarcasm in that. 
I assume with 174 posts for a Senior Member since February 2006 that what he said meant nothing more than what he said. Unless you know more background about Erik to think he might be sarcastic by nature.

I think you were both playing nice.

I think Robert just needs a hug. We men can get grumpy at times. And Robert doesn't sound grumpy or sarcastic today. I actually think he is being rather nice and helpful! :hug:

I don't know Diana well enough to give her a hug yet, but if she wants one too we can do that. :grouphug:

I say we make a new rule. When someone is mad at someone. Just say it.

Works for me and my kids. And if Momma is mad, we all know it! And when Momma is in a good mood, the whole house is in a good mood. Unless Daddy is grumpy.

And it amazing the reaction I see when someone asks the Sargent or Corporal at my part time job, if they are grumpy. Would you know, sometimes they admit it and they say yes? And then they get on with things.

I hope this post made you chuckle or smile.

Just remember. Happy Plants = Happy Fishies


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

If you ask me, giving the benefit of the doubt is always the best policy. 

The two betta tanks at work appear to be doing fine without filters. One developed a bit of film on top of the water and was looking a bit cloudy, so I added the filter a couple of days ago to see if that'll clear it up. 

I had removed both the heater and the powerhead from the 20 gallon NPT at home. I shouldn't have done both at once cuz it makes it impossible to know which caused the problems with it. Lost 2 of 3 adult mollies. The second one who died was partially eaten by snails when I found him and the tank got cloudy and stinky. So I ended up vacuuming and doing large partial water change and put the powerhead that was in my other 20 gallon NPT in. It's happy again. The one I stole the powerhead from still looks happy and is getting a slight flim on the top. I think I'll rotate the powerhead between those two 20 gallon NPTs every couple of weeks.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Lost 2 of 3 adult mollies.


 I am sorry to hear about that. 
My mood at home at times depends on how my fish and aquariums are doing. 
I get very upset when I lose one or two, even though I try not to.

Tonight, both my tanks look very happy and healthy. My 27 Gallon tank with the moonlight looks so good, and the fish and plants look so happy and healthy, it counter acts the loses I have had in the past. Even the snails are starting to look good! While doing a water change tonight, I even found myself saving some snails that had gotten into my water bucket and putting them back in the tank. They actually are neat to watch when they purposely (?) float from the bottom of the tank to the top or visa versa. I figure they must be able to control that to a certain extent somehow. I don't know if it is me or the tanks, but they all are just so beautiful tonight.


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