# New to CO2



## Gramazing

I'm thinking about getting CO2. Can someone tell me, does the equipment shown below constitute a reasonable deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/CO2-Solenoid-Re...ultDomain_0&hash=item415225fa49#ht_4958wt_925

Does this have everything I need, apart from a tank and some method of diffusion? I was thinking of running the line into my filter intake. Is this a cheapo that might go bust on me?


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## inkslinger

They do look nice but they are not made here they my not last long , The Azoo CO2 Regulator is a more common Regulator sold at some of the well know Web Site of Aquarium Supply's
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9895&pcatid=9895

That web page you post had a nice copy of a JBJ Bubble Counter that can be use with the Azoo Regulator 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Aquarium-CO2-CH...550?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f02efebce

Ever thought of just building one all to together? Lot's of info here or just ask everyone be glade to help.


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## Gramazing

inkslinger said:


> They do look nice but they are not made here they my not last long , The Azoo CO2 Regulator is a more common Regulator sold at some of the well know Web Site of Aquarium Supplies
> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9895&pcatid=9895
> 
> That web page you post had a nice copy of a JBJ Bubble Counter that can be use with the Azoo Regulator
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Aquarium-CO2-CH...550?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f02efebce
> 
> Ever thought of just building one all to together? Lot's of info here or just ask everyone be glade to help.


 I've looked around the forum, but I haven't found a definitive description of all the parts and what they do. That's what appealed to me about the package deal.


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## killacross

you could buy a milwaukee regulator/solenoid/bubble counter setup cheaper than that

you just have to look around the interwebs for it

i got mine for $85 shipped

but I wouldnt trust buying something like that from Taiwan - you dont KNOW the threadings are correct


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## Gramazing

I still don't know what I _need_. A solenoid is for switching the thing on and off, correct? Not everyone does that, I believe.

And the needle valve... is that part of the regulator? A needle valve dials down the pressure a second time, right? From explosive pressure to working pressure to drip pressure (my terminology). Also, there's always two dials. What do they mean? What I'd like is to find a page somewhere that describes the whole thing to a dummy like me.


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## darkoon

Milwaukee is a good cheap start, but you'd want to swap out the needle valve for a high quality one, it is not stable, pressure changes every few days.


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## csmith

Gramazing said:


> I still don't know what I _need_. A solenoid is for switching the thing on and off, correct? Not everyone does that, I believe.
> 
> And the needle valve... is that part of the regulator? A needle valve dials down the pressure a second time, right? From explosive pressure to working pressure to drip pressure (my terminology). Also, there's always two dials. What do they mean? What I'd like is to find a page somewhere that describes the whole thing to a dummy like me.


Regulator (Very rough delivery pressure) --->
Solenoid (has a plug you connect to a timer and therefore can turn off CO2 delivery at night) --->
Needle Valve (Heavily refines delivery pressure) --->
Bubble Counter (If you don't know what this does, I'd give up here )

The dial on the left shows you how much pressure is going from the CO2 tank to the regulator. The dial on the right shows you how much pressure is going from the regulator on.

CO2 For Dummies (courtesy of Darkblade48 ): http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7278-A-Primer-for-Pressurized-CO2


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Gramazing,

Actually when we deal with CO2 we deal with two aspects, pressure and rate of flow.

The pressure regulator deals with the pressure only. It takes the roughly 800 PSI pressure that is in the CO2 cylinder and drops it down to a much lower and safer level......typically 20 - 25 PSI. A good pressure regulator will have two gauges, the high pressure gauge shows the cylinder pressure (800 PSI when full) and an output pressure gauge (20 - 25 PSI). The output pressure of the regulator should be adjustable. 
*BEWARE!* There are some regulators out there that are not "pressure regulators" but are "flow regulators". They are not recommended because they do not drop the CO2 pressure down to a safe level.

The solenoid is typically installed immediately after the regulator. It turns the flow of the 20 PSI CO2 on and off. It can be controlled either manually, with a timer, or with a pH controller/probe. Not a required component, I run my CO2 24/7.

Next comes a manifold. It is used if you are going to split the CO2 to go to multiple tanks. I do use this, I feed my CO2 to two aquariums.

After the solenoid and/or manifold comes the needle valve. It adjusts the flow of CO2, not the pressure. It is the component that allows us to adjust the bubbles per second and determines the amount of CO2 we put into our aquariums. Spend a couple of extra dollars on this and get a quality one, you will be glad you did.

After the needle valve comes a bubble counter, if you use one. It is not necessary, I just put my tubing in the water and count.

Lastly comes a check valve, brass is strongly recommended because CO2 can damage some plastics. This component prevents water from flowing from the aquarium into the CO2 components if the cylinder becomes empty or when I have removed the cylinder to get it refilled. Definitely a necessity.

Hope this helps!

BTW, I do not like the regulator you linked to on Ebay, it does not say "pressure regulator" so I am guessing it is a flow regulator which is further confirmed by the arrow indicating a component after the regulator is designed to "bears the high pressure", it does not appear to be adjustable, and it is copper components, you want brass components....not copper!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

"Bump", I updated some information on the Ebay unit.


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## Gramazing

Thanks guy or all that info. The clouds of ignorance are slowly starting to dissipate from the troposphere of my brain. I do not want to get that one on Ebay.


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## Gramazing

darkoon said:


> Milwaukee is a good cheap start, but you'd want to swap out the needle valve for a high quality one, it is not stable, pressure changes every few days.


Does this mean Milwaukee make a complete unit? I assume this because I thought they made regulators and I could buy a regulator and a needle valve separately.


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## inkslinger

Here is a nice regulator you just have to remove the shut-off valve an attach a solenoid vale and needle valve , bubble counter. {or ask when placing your order to remove the shut-off valve}

http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/regulators-pid-642.html

Now you would need a good solenoid valve Brass Bürkert 6011 Solenoid Valve : 00463938

http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...noids-with-Buna-seals-...-available-very-soon

Now for needle valve, there are a few good valves

http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_results.aspx?RPR=100
http://www.idealvalve.com/

Bubble Counter ether your web site or on eBay get a JBJ Bubble Counter
Regulators ports are some time 1/4 inch , so you would need a 1/4 to 1/8 reduce nipple and solenoid valve and bubble counters can order in 1/8 port.

or just order from SuMo

http://www.sumoregulator.com/PremierLine.html

I have a Swagelok B-2MA2 that I like it's not shown on the web site it's special order paid $61. 
Lot of people like the ideal needle valve they can list the model number for you.
This is what I put together My co2 regulator , brass nipple , solenoid valve , needle valve , bubble counter all are 1/8 port size.


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## darkoon

Gramazing said:


> Does this mean Milwaukee make a complete unit? I assume this because I thought they made regulators and I could buy a regulator and a needle valve separately.


they do sell complete unit, that is regulator+solenoid+bubble counter and needle valve
i have the exact same thing, but the needle valve is not steady, so i have to keep on checking and adjusting every few days. I am planning on getting a needle valve to replace the existing one.


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## Gramazing

Thanks a lot for all that info, I will have to wait until tomorrow to look at that in detail.

What is a port? The threaded coupling? And they are usually 1/8", but regulators are 1/4" ? Why wouldn't they be the same?

What makes my head spin is the way it seems that people get a regulator from one company, a needle valve from someone else and a solenoid valve from someone else. I mean, they're all components to assist the flow and control of gases, right? It surely can't be that CO2 delivery to a fish tank is such a specialized usage of this equipment that we have to go to 3 different manufacturers. If they all come from the same company then surely they would be more likely to work together better, be of comparable workmanship and would all refer back to the same phone number for any possible customer service issues.

Sorry if I sound like I'm whining :violin: , I'm an engineer myself, just in a completely different field and I usually hate to spread a job around different vendors.



inkslinger said:


> Here is a nice regulator you just have to remove the shut-off valve an attach a solenoid vale and needle valve , bubble counter. {or ask when placing your order to remove the shut-off valve}
> 
> http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/regulators-pid-642.html
> 
> Now you would need a good solenoid valve Brass Bürkert 6011 Solenoid Valve : 00463938
> 
> http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...noids-with-Buna-seals-...-available-very-soon
> 
> Now for needle valve, there are a few good valves
> 
> http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_results.aspx?RPR=100
> http://www.idealvalve.com/
> 
> Bubble Counter ether your web site or on eBay get a JBJ Bubble Counter
> Regulators ports are some time 1/4 inch , so you would need a 1/4 to 1/8 reduce nipple and solenoid valve and bubble counters can order in 1/8 port.
> 
> or just order from SuMo
> 
> http://www.sumoregulator.com/PremierLine.html
> 
> I have a Swagelok B-2MA2 that I like it's not shown on the web site it's special order paid $61.
> Lot of people like the ideal needle valve they can list the model number for you.
> This is what I put together My co2 regulator , brass nipple , solenoid valve , needle valve , bubble counter all are 1/8 port size.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Gramazing,

I use about 4 drops of reagent in my drop checkers, the remainder being 4.0 dKH distilled H20. 4 drops of Bromthymol Blue, which is slightly acid, is not toxic.


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## Gramazing

Heheh oops I edited that question out. Here it is again because I'm sure you all like answering all these dumb questions 


Just as an aside, I was looking at those drop checkers, which look like a simple thing. What if you bumped it and knocked the suction cup off? I find suction cups are of very variable quality. If I spilt the reagent, would that poison the fish?


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> I find suction cups are of very variable quality.


Quality simply means conformance to specifications. It is the design, materials, engineering, manufacturing process, etc that make a difference in products.

If there are suction cups that will do a good job underwater over a period of time, I sure haven't found any.


Gramazing said:


> If I spilt the reagent, would that poison the fish?


If you spilled a small amount of the Bromothymol Blue indicator solution in an aquarium, it wouldn't hurt anything. It is a very weak acid in solution. OSHA considers it nonhazardours when used properly. The LC50 with a Rainbow Trout is 12900-15300 ppm over a 96 hour time period.
MSDS: http://www.scholarchemistry.com/msds/Bromothy_Bl_Soln.pdf
MSDS: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/45429.htm


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## Gramazing

"The LC50 with a Rainbow Trout is 12900-15300 ppm over a 96 hour time period." So I would have more luck with #12 hook and a trout worm?


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## Left C

Or a good trout fly.

That BBIC is very diluted, but it does a great job at what it does.

I was thinking about your being new to pressurized CO2 and I have a few thoughts. These folks gave you great information and I'm sure that it will take a little while to gasp it all.

There are some traits that make a CO2 regulator easy for a beginner to use.

easy to operate
doesn't blow the low pressure gauge easily
easy to set the flow rate
holds the flow rate well

I would suggest an Azoo or JBJ regulator. The Azoo would be my first pick because it is cheaper and over the years, if there was a problem, JBJ's support wasn't as good as it needed to be.

Both of these regulators have a preset working pressure from the factory. This is one less thing for a beginner to worry about. It is very hard to blow their low pressure gauge because of this. Some regulators that have a working pressure adjustment can blow their low pressure gauge if you don't follow the directions. This means turning the adjustment knob or handle counterclockwise until it is either almost screwed all the way off or the low pressure gauge reads near or at 0 psi before you ever open the valve on the CO2 cylinder. If you don't do this the very first time that you turn it on or when you replace the CO2 cylinder, you will probably blow the gauge.

Ideal needle valves and Swagelok, Parker, Nupro and ****** metering valves are easy to set and they will hold their settings. Some have a Vernier micrometer handle so that you can always return to a certain position. You have to use certain models of these valves because of our low flow rates and low pressures involved.

Both the Azoo and JBJ regulators would work much better with one of these excellent needle or metering valves. Both regulators have solenoids and only the JBJ has a bubble counter as stock. So, my suggestion for a beginner is to get one of these regulators and replace their stock needle valve with a good one.

The next step up would be to get one from Rex, GLA or SuMo. These all use good components. After this, you could build your own with your choice of parts.


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## Gramazing

Thanks again for that info, I will have to go away and have a good hard look at all this stuff. You said "So, my suggestion for a beginner is to get one of these regulators and replace their stock needle valve with a good one." Does this mean regulators usually come with a needle valve? I thought that was a completely separate component.


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## inkslinger

They do come with a needle valve "But" They aren't that good! Lot's of people will buy a good needle valve to replace them. You can use them for a while .


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## Gramazing

Would this be a good one to get? Is it a preset one? That sounds like something I should get, one less thing for me to screw up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Azoo-CO2-Pressu...aultDomain_0&hash=item19bf1bd8a0#ht_500wt_911


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Thanks again for that info, I will have to go away and have a good hard look at all this stuff. You said "So, my suggestion for a beginner is to get one of these regulators and replace their stock needle valve with a good one." Does this mean regulators usually come with a needle valve? I thought that was a completely separate component.


Some do and some don't come with a solenoid, needle valve and bubble counter. The JBJ and Milwaukee regulators have all these parts. The Azoo regulator has everything but the bubble counter. It has the solenoid and needle valve. Here are some links for you to see them. These links may not be the cheapest though. But, after you see what to look for, you can shop around. Reading over Darkblade48's regulator post will help you quite a bit.

Azoo regulator: http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.c...03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=529155783









JBJ regulator: http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q8wIwAA#









Milwaukee regulator: http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Instruments-Solenoid-Regulator-Counter/dp/B001DTNWF2









Ideal 52-1-12 needle valve: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/item/all-categories/52-series-forged-brass-needle-valves/item-1128?









There is not a picture of the V52-1-12. This is a picture of the panel mount version that also has the Vernier handle. The big nuts in the center will not be on the V52-1-12: http://idealvalve.thomasnet.com/item/all-categories/52-series-forged-brass-needle-valves/item-1136?


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Would this be a good one to get? Is it a preset one? That sounds like something I should get, one less thing for me to screw up.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Azoo-CO2-Pressu...aultDomain_0&hash=item19bf1bd8a0#ht_500wt_911


Good job!

That would be my first choice if the price is right. Heck, three years ago these Azoo regulators were going for approximately $41 + shipping.

The JBJ regulators have been discontinued at some places. I saw this when I Googled.


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## Left C

You can get the Ideal 52-1-12 needle valve from Ideal, Rex Griggs or SuMo. As far as I know, the V52-1-12 valve is only available from Ideal.


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## Gramazing

Left C said:


> I would suggest an Azoo or JBJ regulator.


This one looks different to the one I linked to before plus it's cheap:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/737/AZOO-CO2-Pressure-Regulator/Azoo CO2 Regulator/0

Why does it have only one dial? Is that because it is pre-set?


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## Gramazing

Left C said:


> You can get the Ideal 52-1-12 needle valve from Ideal, Rex Griggs or SuMo. As far as I know, the V52-1-12 valve is only available from Ideal.


Which do you use? I can see how the V52-1-12 must allow for very precise control.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> This one looks different to the one I linked to before plus it's cheap:
> 
> http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/737/AZOO-CO2-Pressure-Regulator/Azoo CO2 Regulator/0This isn't the model that I had in mind for you.
> 
> Why does it have only one dial? Is that because it is pre-set?


This isn't the model that I had in mind for you.

This is a small unit that Azoo came out with about 3 years ago. It is compact and uses its own 2 lbs
bottle. It has a single gauge and I know nothing about its needle valve. But, it is probably not a very good valve.

Notice that the complete assembly is $149 + shipping.

_AZ19999 CO2 Kit (Both regulator and bottle) In Stock	$149.00_

There are some people using it for smaller aquariums. I've never seen it is person though. I still would not recommend it for you.

__________________________________________________________________________________

This is the Azoo model that I had in mind for you. Maybe you can find it online cheaper.
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.c...03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=529155783


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Which do you use? I can see how the V52-1-12 must allow for very precise control.


Both valves allow for very precise flow rates. Their insides are identical. Both have 22 to 24 turns from fully closed to fully open.

This micrometer handle allows you to know exactly how many of its 22 to 24 revolutions that the valve is set at plus which part of its 360° revolution that it is set at too. When ever you rotate the handle for either increasing or decreasing the flow, you know exactly how far you adjusted it. If you would ever want to go to a previous setting, you can easily find it. Also, let's say that you require a lot of CO2 for your aquarium. Sometimes the flow is so fast that you really can't count the bubble rate in your bubble counter. Many depend on their drop checker and their critters to tell them the stopping point. With the micrometer handle, you have the precision to know exactly how far out the valve is open within only a few degrees. You can easily fine tune it.

The regular handle model is cheaper, but still with precise flow control. You can follow your adjustments by counting the bubble count rather than on a micrometer handle. You can mark the adjustment knob for reference if you want to. If you would not need the precision of the micrometer handle, this would still work fine. You could always get the micrometer handle later if you want it. You can buy it separately if you wish. You just remove the stock knob with an Allen wrench and replace it with the micrometer handle. Then you "0" the handle out or you can call this "calibrating the handle."

Swagelok, Parker, Nupro and ****** metering valves are available with a Vernier micrometer handle as well. They can come stock on these valves or you can purchase the micrometer handle kit and put it on. Here are two that I have purchased on ebay at very reduced prices.

angle flow









straight flow


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## Gramazing

That would be this one? The colors are a bit different but the structure looks the same. By "magnet valve" I take it they mean a solenoid?

http://cgi.ebay.com/AZOO-CO2-Pressu...ultDomain_0&hash=item3f02890d3f#ht_4208wt_912

Thanks for talking me through this. 15 months ago I had plastic plants, a HOB filter with activated carbon and a generic aquarium hood with 2x24" bulbs.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> That would be this one? The colors are a bit different but the structure looks the same. By "magnet valve" I take it they mean a solenoid?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/AZOO-CO2-Pressu...ultDomain_0&hash=item3f02890d3f#ht_4208wt_912


I don't think that it will work with an USA made CGA-320 CO2 cylinder. I believe that it is made for cylinders for Asia or wherever. It has a weird protrusion sticking out at the end of the nipple. CGA-320 fittings are flat on the end with a grove in them. You can see what I mean in this picture except for the groove part.










If you get one of those regulators, get one in the US like the link I gave you to DrsFosterSmith.com. I know theirs works with our CGA-320 cylinder. Or shop around at other US based places. Maybe you can price match somewhere.
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.c...03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=529155783



Gramazing said:


> Thanks for talking me through this. 15 months ago I had plastic plants, a HOB filter with activated carbon and a generic aquarium hood with 2x24" bulbs.


Been there ... done that! LOL


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## Left C

I forgot about one option for a cheaper needle valve (around $25) that does a good job according to many people. It offers good control. Its only problem could be its tiny #10-32 threads, but this can be overcome. You can either mount it to the solenoid (rather precariously) or run it inline. This valve is the Fabco NV-55.
http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/CO2.html#needle
http://www.aquabotanicstore.com/Fabco_inline_needle_valve_p/nv55.htm
http://store.fabco-air.com/proddetail.php?prod=NV-55


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## fishyjoe24

sorry to hi jack the thread but I've got a question about my c02 regulator. the right gauge wants to stay around 60-80 when I turn the bottle and I hear a whistle sound, well the left one wants to stay at 0-20 what am I doing wrong? can any one help.


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## Gramazing

Hmmm... I can't see the difference. I fired off an email to the seller to see if it's CGA-320 CO2. I saw this one too, for sale in the US and it looks the same as the other one.

http://tinyurl.com/28ebw29

I will keep looking nevertheless, it looks like the one I will get.


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## Left C

fishyjoe24 said:


> sorry to hi jack the thread but I've got a question about my c02 regulator. the right gauge wants to stay around 60-80 when I turn the bottle and I hear a whistle sound, well the left one wants to stay at 0-20 what am I doing wrong? can any one help.


Are you reading the psi amount on both gauges?


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## fishyjoe24

Left C said:


> Are you reading the psi amount on both gauges?


psi on both gauges? I think I'm confused or this might be a china gauge/regulator/sealnoid. on an american bottle(from air gas). it looks to be that the psi gauge is on the left and reads 0. did air gas not give me a full bottle or am I not doing this right. thanks for the help.


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## fishyjoe24

Thanks inkslinger.

fishyjoe24 the whistle sound you here is your gas is leaking.

I have the same "3M" Regulator the left is your reading from your co2 tank and the right is your out-put of your gas.
Your left side should read {my 5lb tank} 800-1000 when it's full and your right side should be set 0-20psi but some people will run 30psi , You should make sure you have your nylon washer when connecting to your co2 tank and tighten your regulator then give it a little bit more with a wrench . Shut the valve on you tank off then open the center valve on your regulator to release any pressure then close it do the same with the needle vale open it to release any gas an your right meter will go down to 0psi , Then open your Tank valve , then your black nob on your regulator open slowly!! until you get your reading from your tank , Now slowly open your needle valve to about 10-20psi it might drop the right side down a little , From here is when you have to tweak it a little . Then leave it.
On the valve should also be a so-call blow out valve if you ever unscrew this it has a tiny spring in it make sure this flush with your regulator if not screw it down a little.

what's the needle valve look like? edit: Thanks. google.com


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## Gramazing

I wrote them an email and they said, "it fits with refillable cylinders for 2.2cm connector." SO I guess that means it doesn't fit.



Left C said:


> I don't think that it will work with an USA made CGA-320 CO2 cylinder. I believe that it is made for cylinders for Asia or wherever. It has a weird protrusion sticking out at the end of the nipple. CGA-320 fittings are flat on the end with a grove in them. You can see what I mean in this picture except for the groove part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you get one of those regulators, get one in the US like the link I gave you to DrsFosterSmith.com. I know theirs works with our CGA-320 cylinder. Or shop around at other US based places. Maybe you can price match somewhere.
> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.c...03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=529155783
> 
> Been there ... done that! LOL


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## virgo888

Gramazing said:


> I'm thinking about getting CO2. Can someone tell me, does the equipment shown below constitute a reasonable deal?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/CO2-Solenoid-Re...ultDomain_0&hash=item415225fa49#ht_4958wt_925
> 
> Does this have everything I need, apart from a tank and some method of diffusion? I was thinking of running the line into my filter intake. Is this a cheapo that might go bust on me?


I would get a milwakee for $88.99 shipped over fleabay. http://www.eseasongear.com/milwaukeema957.html


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## Gramazing

virgo888 said:


> I would get a milwakee for $88.99 shipped over fleabay. http://www.eseasongear.com/milwaukeema957.html


That looks like an excellent deal. Of course I need a better needle valve by everyone's reckoning, but I was especially impressed by their manual:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-83212413117752/Mil-Manual-MA957.pdf

This lays out in plain english how to start the system off, with every step linked back to part call-outs on the illustration. Even a dummy like me feels confident I could do that without something exploding.

Extra question: How long does a 5lb CO2 tank last? I have 1 55 gallon fish tank.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> That looks like an excellent deal. Of course I need a better needle valve by everyone's reckoning, but I was especially impressed by their manual:
> 
> http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-83212413117752/Mil-Manual-MA957.pdf
> 
> This lays out in plain english how to start the system off, with every step linked back to part call-outs on the illustration. Even a dummy like me feels confident I could do that without something exploding.


The following part of the manual is a bit funky. I know why they are saying this though. This originally wasn't included in the manual. Then it was added a few years ago after many complaints about the touchy needle valve from the users:

"Turn the adjustment knob ( E ) clockwise until you get a reading on the low pressure gauge ( F ) of approx. 10 lbs or less on the inside set of numbers ( psi ). You should now see bubbles in the bubble counter. It is recommended that you use the bubble counter rather than the right gauge to determine your flow rate. *Only use the needle valve if you can not get exact flow from adjustment knob (E)*"

Most regulators with a working pressure adjustment allow you to set the working pressure first. Then you dial in your flow rate with your needle/metering valve.

The Azoo and JBJ regulators don't have this adjustment. (They really do have this adjustment, but they don't recommend that you make any adjustment. I know the Azoo is this way and I guessing that the JBJ does too.)



Gramazing said:


> Extra question: How long does a 5lb CO2 tank last? I have 1 55 gallon fish tank.


Just guessing, maybe 3 months (give or take).


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## Gramazing

Ok, just to really annoy everyone... why is this regulator so cheap?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Clarke-Argon-CO...aultDomain_0&hash=item35a72e8232#ht_984wt_894

Is it a good one?

Edit: here's another one... I'm getting confused again, there's so many for sale and many of them seem to be from Asia so I guess don't have US standard threads. I have asked the vendors but they don't like to give a direct answer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victor-Cutskill...ultDomain_0&hash=item2eafd289d1#ht_500wt_1137


----------



## Left C

I wouldn't buy any of those regulators.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victor-Cutskill...ultDomain_0&hash=item2eafd289d1#ht_500wt_1137[/QUOTE]Try to get (in this order for preference too)
VTS253A-320, 0 to 30 psi, two stage
VTS253B-320, 0 to 60 psi, two stage
VTS253C-320, 0 to 100 psi, two stage
VTS253D-320, 0 to 200 psi, two stage

The four above are some of the very best for our use where the A, B and C models are the very best of the four. The D model will work great too, but it really isn't designed for low pressure use like we use.


----------



## inkslinger

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators/co2-premium.shtml

I like the 642 better , Just remove the shut-off valve , an install your solenoid valve and needle valve.


----------



## Gramazing

Thanks for the advice guys. Now here's another one :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...4&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123#ht_733wt_1120

The sellers tell me it was pretty certain to have been never used for acetylene (not 100% certain mind you but it was used at a university and I'm guessing they don't do much welding there unless it was the art department).

Sorry to be a pain here, but I am having trouble seeing the difference between them. I've worked out the following:

-JBJ and Azoo are the best, Victor and Concau (sp?) also and that Milwaukee, despite their popularity often have problems (although I've read many posts too, from people who say theirs runs fine)

-I need a pressure regulator, not a flow regulator, although again I don't know how to tell the difference from looking at picture online.

-Dual stage is more reliable if a little more fiddly and usually bought used

- Regulators bought on ebay from Asia don't have US standard threads


----------



## Gramazing

Left C said:


> I wouldn't buy any of those regulators.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Victor-Cutskill...ultDomain_0&hash=item2eafd289d1#ht_500wt_1137


Try to get (in this order for preference too)
VTS253A-320, 0 to 30 psi, two stage
VTS253B-320, 0 to 60 psi, two stage
VTS253C-320, 0 to 100 psi, two stage
VTS253D-320, 0 to 200 psi, two stage

The four above are some of the very best for our use where the A, B and C models are the very best of the four. The D model will work great too, but it really isn't designed for low pressure use like we use. [/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting that, LeftC. Still trying to find out from the seller if that's A, B, C or D. All it says on the side is CF1-320. Also flow - "Up to 38 CFH Co2". I don't know what CFH means, or if flow corresponds to psi on the outlet side. Do you know? I get the impression you have more knowledge about regulators than just for aquarium use.

Edit by me: the seller tells me it's "A", specifically 0-30 psi. I think I will get it.

There's 3 available, if anyone else wants one.

Thanks again for talking me through this.


----------



## majstor76

Gramazing said:


> I don't know what CFH means


Cubic feets per hour?


----------



## Gramazing

majstor76 said:


> Cubic feets per hour?


It might well be. I found out it is a measure of flow rate.


----------



## TonyVideo

Cubic feet per hour (CFH) IS a measure of CO2 flow rate.


----------



## Gramazing

So far I have a Victor VTS253A-320 regulator on the way, a Fabco NV55 needle valve on its way (only $19+ but another 10 to ship it!) and a bunch of things from an ebay seller in HK; a very cheap reactor, some check valves, drop checker and some tubing. It's so easy to spend money with paypal!


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> So far I have a Victor VTS253A-320 regulator on the way, a Fabco NV55 needle valve on its way (only $19+ but another 10 to ship it!) and a bunch of things from an ebay seller in HK; a very cheap reactor, some check valves, drop checker and some tubing. It's so easy to spend money with paypal!


Great choice of equipment! Are you getting a solenoid?


----------



## Gramazing

Haven't got one yet. I asked in another thread about a solenoid that was cheap on Ebay:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/73593-parker-solenoid.html

but I assume increased wattage causes increased heat and probably that one is not meant to be on 10 hours a day. I will keep looking on Ebay, I am determined to find a cheap one.


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Haven't got one yet. I asked in another thread about a solenoid that was cheap on Ebay:
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/73593-parker-solenoid.html
> 
> but I assume increased wattage causes increased heat and probably that one is not meant to be on 10 hours a day. I will keep looking on Ebay, I am determined to find a cheap one.


It's a bummer about that solenoid. We can't see it and Parker's site doesn't list that part number.

Oreo picked up a 20CC02LV4B4F Parker solenoid that is 8.5w on ebay. He hasn't reported any problems.

Something that you could do instead of leaving it on continuously for 10 hours or so is to let the timer cut it off for 15 minutes every so often if you are worried about the heat. That would let it have a chance to cool. Then adjust your CO2 input rate to compensate.

Herns has bought several different "cheap" solenoids on ebay. He hasn't had any luck with them. They go bad rather quickly and he is using a pH controller so that they are not on continuously.

I spoke with the tech service department at Bürkert about the Buna-N Bürkert 6011 solenoids posted on this forum. I was told that they can be turned on for long periods of time without failure or excessive heat. The same goes for the other 6011 456786 solenoids with Viton seals.


----------



## Gramazing

Yeah, I saw your post on the Burkert 6011 with buna seals. If I have no luck I will probably get one of those.


----------



## Left C

I don't know if you checked this out, but in my previous post is a hyperlink to iProcesSmart.com where you can get a Burkert model number 456786 solenoid. This brass solenoid has Viton seals. Otherwise it is identical to the model number 463938 with Buna-N seals. Someone told me yesterday that AquariumPlants.com is going to be out of the 456786 solenoid for 7 to 10 days. AP.com does have a custom Clippard solenoid that runs on a lower voltage available. It is the same one on their electronic solenoid. I don't know anything else about it other than that.


----------



## darkoon

Many thanks to Left C who provided great information on 2-stage regulator, needle valves and fittings. I have finally finished retrofitting my Milwaukee regulator into a Harris 2-stage regulator + swagelok low flow metering valve + Milwaukee solenoid + Milwaukee bubble counter/needle valve. Works much better than the original Milwaukee setup. total cost in addition to the Milwaukee setup was ~$100. $38 for Harris 2-stage, $35 for Swagelok low-flow metering valve, $5 for CGA320 fitting, $17 for Swagelok fittings. It is much easier to controll co2 bubble counter per second now.


----------



## Gramazing

Yes, many thanks to Left C from me too. The regulator I bought was the one you found on Ebay - the Victor. It should arrive today. I have still to get the solenoid. I have saved the link to iProcesSmart.com, but I am still looking on Ebay to see if anything turns up that's cheaper.


----------



## darkoon

any reason that you didn't buy clippard solenoid from Rex?



Gramazing said:


> Yes, many thanks to Left C from me too. The regulator I bought was the one you found on Ebay - the Victor. It should arrive today. I have still to get the solenoid. I have saved the link to iProcesSmart.com, but I am still looking on Ebay to see if anything turns up that's cheaper.


----------



## Gramazing

Are they ok? I heard they were not the best to get.


----------



## darkoon

I believe the clippard one is quite popular. I have not personally used them. And it looks like you're going through a lot of search online trying to find the right one.


----------



## Gramazing

Oh, I'm just farting around, and I'm supposed to be working


----------



## Gramazing

So my regulator arrived today!









Question: Isn't there supposed to be a blow-out valve or something? This only has an in and out. Those are technical terms by the way.


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> So far I have a Victor VTS253A-320 regulator on the way, a Fabco NV55 needle valve on its way (only $19+ but another 10 to ship it!) and a bunch of things from an ebay seller in HK; a very cheap reactor, some check valves, drop checker and some tubing. It's so easy to spend money with paypal!





Gramazing said:


> So my regulator arrived today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Question: Isn't there supposed to be a blow-out valve or something? This only has an in and out. Those are technical terms by the way.


I'm confused. You said that you got a VTS253A-320. Did they ship you the wrong one???

That is a CF153 single stage CO2 regulator. It might not have a blow-off valve. I don't see one listed on its parts diagram. Here's its pdf. It is shown on pages 1 and 2: http://www.sealseat.com/pdf/VICTOR.pdf

This is a picture of my VTS253D-320. You can see its pressure relief valve.


----------



## Gramazing

I'm such an idiot. I was looking at so many regulators on Ebay that I got mixed up. Here is what the seller said to me:

"It's model CF153-320. The regulator gauge is 0-30 psi outlet pressure. Let me know if that answers your question or if I can help you with anything else... Thanks!"

_CF153-320_ not _VTS253A-320_... I saw the 320 at the end and plus he said 30 psi. Jeezus I just spent 60 bucks for nothing.


----------



## Gramazing

Is it possible to use this regulator? I was reading up and some people use single stage regulators.


----------



## Left C

Even though it is a single stage regulator; it is still a very good regulator. It and the very good parts that you purchased should give you trouble free performance for years and years. You should keep an eye on it when you notice the pressure dropping as the cylinder empties.

This is the model that I was looking at before using the two stage regulators.


----------



## Left C

You Ninjied me by a minute!


----------



## darkoon

I bought a Harris 722 recently, but I still keep my eyes on ebay. I have not seen a VTS253A for the past month or so. I was surprised when Gramazing said he bought one.


----------



## Gramazing

What about the lack of a pressure relief valve? Does anyone think that will be a problem? I have read you can buy one and install it inline and it will bleed off the gas over a certain pressure, say 20 psi.

I will have to look at "end of tank dump" too, specifically how long it takes. I usually keep a good eye on my tank as it's in my living room right next to where I sit every day.


----------



## darkoon

According to GLA, as long as you have a decent needle valve, you don't need to worry about end of tank dump.

here is my retrofitted CO2 setup


----------



## Gramazing

Is a Fabco decent? I hear it's way better than a Clippard but the Ideal one allows more fine adjustment. I have a Fabco on the way.


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> What about the lack of a pressure relief valve? Does anyone think that will be a problem? ...


Someone researched this a while back. It is not required on that regulator because it is a light duty CO2 regulator. To be honest, if it needed one Victor would of put one on it. All regulators made have to meet the Compressed Gas Association's standards.

There is a lot more to the "why's" that it doesn't need a pressure relief valve than I can recall now. It gets into the low pressures that we use, the various gases (CO2) used, the regulators' construction, the pressure in the CO2 cylinder and more. You can find out more on CGA's site and from Thermadyne support.

By all means, I want you to do the safe thing. Research it more and make yourself feel safe.

Or, sell it and get a two stage regulator. 

PS: Why didn't you Google CF153 and I would not have to be typing all this mess? LOL


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> ... I will have to look at "end of tank dump" too, specifically how long it takes. I usually keep a good eye on my tank as it's in my living room right next to where I sit every day.


Here are some comments about EOTD and regulators. These were posted about a year or so ago. This will save you a bit of research time.



Hoppy said:


> I had an "end of tank dump" every time my 5 pound tank ran out of liquid CO2, using a Milwaukee regulator. I also watched carefully a few times to see why it happened, and the reason was that the outlet pressure from the regulator would rise considerably as the inlet pressure dropped. Since the flow rate through a needle valve, no matter how expensive, cheap, good, or poor it is, is directly proportional to the inlet pressure to the needle valve, the bubble rate would rise as the regulator outlet pressure went up.
> 
> A needle valve is just a variable orifice, and for the flow rates we use, that orifice is so small that the flow through the needle valve is laminar, meaning that the flow rate is proportional to the differential pressure across the valve and not the square root of the differential pressure. So, an increase in the pressure applied to the needle valve increases the bubble rate proportionally.
> 
> I have no idea whether or not all Milwaukee regulators work as mine did, but I do know how mine operated. From other's experience reported here, I have to assume I had a lemon of a Milwaukee regulator. I am totally satisfied with the 2 stage regulator I now use - no end of tank dump at all.
> 
> Part of the "confusion" is the belief that a regulator operating at 5-20psi output pressure has an easy job compared to one operating at 10 times that pressure. That isn't true. A good regulator will hold its outlet pressure constant come hell or high water - full tank, virtually empty tank with only gas in it, high temperature, low temperature, etc. The really cheap ones, of which I would rate Milwaukee as a poor example, won't do that. My Milwaukee's output pressure varied with everything from the astrological sign to the state of the tides. It may not have varied much, but it was enough to change the bubble rate. And, the bubble rate is determined in equal parts by the output pressure and the size of the orifice that regulates the flow. A perfect needle valve is only perfect because that orifice remains exactly as set, and can be adjusted in very small increments. But, if the regulator output pressure varies, the bubble rate will vary in direct proportion to the change in output pressure (for the minute flow rates we use).
> 
> As Left C said, if you can get a used great quality regulator cheap, you can afford a great quality needle valve, and you then have the best of regulator assemblies.
> 
> In my opinion, "end of tank dump" is entirely caused by the regulator allowing the output pressure to rise as the tank pressure drops. The needle valve has nothing at all to do with it, since it is just a variable orifice that you set, and it stays where you set it. The flow through any orifice, including a needle valve, is proportional to the pressure applied to the orifice, so the rising regulator output pressure results in a rising bubble rate. If you run near maximum bubble rate, it doesn't take a big rise to be enough to kill the fish.





V said:


> I've never experienced a dump but from what I've read a very good needle valve will stop this from occurring.





Hoppy said:


> A needle valve, whether good or bad, is just a variable size orifice. In our case, the orifice is extremely small, almost microscopic. The laws of nature dictate that if you apply pressurized gas to one side of an orifice, you get a specific flow rate out the other side. Raise the applied pressure and the flow rate goes up, either proportional to the square root of the pressure difference across the orifice or directly proportional to that pressure difference. For the size orifice we use, it is directly proportional to the pressure difference. (Strictly speaking, it isn't an orifice in our needle valves, but an approximately cylindrical shaped slit, having a significant length, making it a laminar flow restrictor.)
> 
> If you spend $1000 on the best needle valve money can buy, the same principles apply. There is no brain in a needle valve.
> 
> It is the pressure regulator, and only the pressure regulator that can cause "end of tank dump".
> __________________
> 
> All of us can be assumed to have a pair of working eyes. I say that, because enjoying a planted tank requires the ability to see it. So, we have the scientific instruments necessary for determining the cause of "end of tank dump". Do two experiments: First, when you get a newly filled, and very cold bottle of CO2, hook it up to the regulator, set the output pressure to 20 psi, for example, with some bubble rate coming out, look at the inlet pressure gage, and note what will probably be about a 500 psi reading (caused by the very low temperature of the gaseous CO2 in the bottle.) Wait a couple of hours and look at the pressure gages again. You will note that the inlet gage now shows a higher pressure, caused by the gaseous CO2 increasing in temperature. But, you may also note that the outlet pressure has dropped, possibly to near zero. If you see this you will have shown that your regulator produces an output pressure that is inversely proportional to the inlet pressure - when the inlet pressure goes up, the outlet pressure goes down.
> 
> Store that data somewhere, and wait a few months for the CO2 bottle to start to run out. As soon as you see the inlet pressure to the regulator drop 50 psi or so, read the outlet pressure gage. Wait a day, and the inlet pressure to the regulator will have dropped another 100-200 psi (there is only gaseous CO2 in the tank now, so the pressure drops as you use that gas up). Read the outlet pressure. If you note that the outlet pressure has increased over what it was the day before, you have verified that your regulator gives an outlet pressure that is inversely proportional to the inlet pressure - as the inlet pressure drops, the outlet pressure rises.
> 
> The Milwaukee regulator I owned and used for a few years behaved just as I described. And, since the bubble rate (flow rate through the needle valve) is proportional to the pressure applied to the inlet to the needle valve, the bubble rate rises as the bottle runs low on CO2. That is "end of tank dump". I killed enough of my fish because of this to justify the use of my scientific instruments - my eyes - to determine the cause, and it is what I just described.
> 
> If you don't have a Milwaukee regulator, or, to be most accurate, if you didn't buy that regulator from me a few months ago, your regulator may not operate this way. Mine did, and I doubt that any Milwaukee regulator would operate any differently.
> __________________
> Hoppy





j said:


> Hoppy is right, that when the pressure increases at End of Tank, the bubble rate increase through the needle valve with a Single Stage regulator.
> 
> What a good needle valve does is to react less to that pressure increase so that you will get a little more CO2 release, but not enough to kill your tank.





Hoppy said:


> No, that is a myth, although a very popular one. A needle valve has no mechanism for reacting to anything. You can turn the handle and change the bubble rate, but other than that nothing changes in the needle valve as the pressure builds up. The advantages of a good needle valve are, you can adjust the bubble rate easily, sometimes taking a full turn of the valve handle to drop/raise the rate to where you want it, and the needle stays where you left it, even if you lightly bump the valve. Really cheap needle valves can double the bubble rate if you just tap the valve handle, and lightly bumping it can also double the bubble rate, or drop it to zero.





plantbrain said:


> Many reg's do not have adjustment for output pressure:thumbsdow
> These reg's suck.
> Dual gauge reg's are great also.
> 
> You'd figure given the risk, livestock, importance of CO2, folks would tell new folks and suggest to others to go all out on a nice well made CO2 dual stage reg, solenoid(never add CO2 at night), good current, nice well made needle valve.
> 
> And yet many do not..............
> 
> Some of it, if not most is user error, but this can be reduced, perhaps a lot, by using decent stuff.
> 
> Most of the hobby brands are simply put: rubbish, junk, garbage.
> They are not that much of a cost savings either.
> 
> So put the funds where it will help the most.
> Spend less $$$ on more watts for lighting and go good on CO2.
> Worth every penny.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr





Hoppy said:


> What we usually call a "regulator", like the Milwaukee one, is really an assembly of a regulator, needle valve, solenoid valve and often a bubble counter. A regulator from ebay will probably not include those extra parts, so the cost savings that way are diluted by having to buy the extra parts. Still, getting an industrial or lab quality regulator on ebay for $20-$50, and adding a good needle valve gives you the absolute best "regulator" you can ever get, even if it ends up costing a bit more than the regulator assemblies made for aquarium use.


----------



## Gramazing

Thanks a lot Left C for putting all that info up there. I will give it a shot with the one I have and see how it goes. I will get myself a tank this weekend, if I can get one less than the $45 + delivery I have seen on Ebay. That just leaves me the solenoid to get. The other stuff is on its way. I also have a half finished tank stand I am making at the workshop at work that will fit everything under it.

Some thoughts I have:

Lower input pressure = higher output pressure.... that's counterintuitive to me. I guess it must have something to do with the internal pressure holding the diaphragm in place or something.

I am guessing a pressure relief valve does something different to what I thought. I thought it would blow off extra CO2 when the outlet pressure goes up to a certain level, thereby assuring the needle valve doesn't, er, have too much work to do.

If a needle valve regulates pressure, not flow, then I am confused about how it can allow more flow through when the pressure goes up. I can see from how it's designed that it would do this, but I don't get why it's called a flow regulator.

Once again, thanks for helping me out here.


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Thanks a lot Left C for putting all that info up there.


Those guys know what they are talking about. They really explain those things very well.



Gramazing said:


> I will give it a shot with the one I have and see how it goes. I will get myself a tank this weekend, if I can get one less than the $45 + delivery I have seen on Ebay. That just leaves me the solenoid to get. The other stuff is on its way. I also have a half finished tank stand I am making at the workshop at work that will fit everything under it.


You have good equipment. That regulator used to be part of the "Medalist" line. It does a good job from what I understand. I was ready to order one when I saw that Victor VTS253A-1993 on ebay for $20 + $9.30 shipping.



Gramazing said:


> Some thoughts I have:
> 
> Lower input pressure = higher output pressure.... that's counterintuitive to me. I guess it must have something to do with the internal pressure holding the diaphragm in place or something.


I have something that explains the workings a bit more. I've posted it on two other sites. You might of already seen it. I'll post it below.



Gramazing said:


> I am guessing a pressure relief valve does something different to what I thought. I thought it would blow off extra CO2 when the outlet pressure goes up to a certain level, thereby assuring the needle valve doesn't, er, have too much work to do.


That's right. That is how it works.

The beer and hobby grade regulators as well as higher performance all have these relief valves. Exactly why this one is designed without one, I do not know.



Gramazing said:


> If a needle valve regulates pressure, not flow, then I am confused about how it can allow more flow through when the pressure goes up. I can see from how it's designed that it would do this, but I don't get why it's called a flow regulator.


The regulator reduces the pressure to a "workable" range and is supposed to hold it there. The needle valve controls flow. If the regulator controls flow too, that's a plus. I don't know why it is called a flow regulator .... marketing???

Check this out: Airgas carries this same regulator: Radnor® Model CF-153-320 Victor® Style Regulator Flowgauge CGA-320. It says: Radnor® Single Stage Regulators are recommended for applications where slight delivery pressure increases due to decreasing cylinder pressures would not affect the performance characteristics of the work of test results.

More info: Radnor Single Stage Regulators are recommended for applications where slight delivery pressure increases due to decreasing cylinder pressures would not affect the performance characteristics of the work of test results. Features: Single Stage 150 series regulatorStem-type seat mechanismForged Body and Housing CapMade in the U.S.A.Two year warranty Benefits: Compact single stage constructionIdeal for MIG/TIG applications where a flowmeter is not necessary or practical. REG F/GAUGE RAD CF153-320 CO2 RADNOR VICTOR STYLE

So, watch it when the pressure starts falling!



Gramazing said:


> Once again, thanks for helping me out here.


The more I write, the more I think that you should consider selling it. I know for a fact how good two stage regulators work. But, I've never used a CF153. I'm sure it is very good, but it is still a single stage regulator.

Would you sell your CF153 and get a nice two stage regulator?

This is a really nice Concoa ... 312 series

Matt F. has a Victor HPT270 for sale. Would you want to get it if it is still available? link Also read several of the posts below for more regulators for sale.


----------



## darkoon

or search for Harris regulator on ebay, the same one I bought, for $25 + $12 shipping. the only down side is the output pressure gauge is 200 psi, which is way more than what we needed. You need to turn the knob slowly so that you don't crank pass 10psi. overall, i like it, it weighs 4.75lbs, and feels rock solid.


----------



## Left C

Some people want to understand the differences between single and two stage regulators a little more as well as how they work or don't work in some cases. "End of tank dump" is explained even though that phrase is not mentioned. The following comes from a Matheson catalog. It is well written and easy to understand.

*TWO STAGE* regulators reduce the source pressure down to the desired delivery pressure in two steps. Each stage consists of a spring, diaphragm, and control valve. The first stage reduces the inlet pressure to about three times the maximum working pressure. The final pressure reduction occurs in the second stage. The advantage of a dual stage regulator is its ability to deliver a constant pressure, even with a decrease in inlet pressure. For example, as a cylinder of gas is depleted, the cylinder pressure drops. Under these conditions, single stage regulators exhibit a "decaying inlet characteristic"; where the delivery pressure increases as a result of the decrease in inlet pressure. In a two stage regulator, the second stage compensates for this increase, providing a constant delivery pressure regardless of inlet pressure conditions. The dual stage regulator is recommended for applications where a continuous supply of gas is required; such as the gas supplied to analytical instruments where constant delivery pressure is critical.

*SINGLE STAGE* regulators perform the same function as the two stage regulator using a single step reduction of source to outlet pressure. For this reason, the outlet pressure cannot be as accurately controlled as the source pressure decays. We highly recommend single stage regulators only be used in circumstances where the operator can monitor and adjust the regulator as needed or where the regulator is supplied a nearly constant source pressure.

*Regulator Design & Construction Features*


----------



## Gramazing

Arggh... you're telling something I don't want to hear but probably _need_ to. I will sleep on it. I might even start things off with that regulator and take my time finding a dual stage one. That Harris one was cheap, but high output like Darkoon said. The Concoa seems like a good deal but is nevertheless a little more than what I just paid. They have 4 available so might be open to bargaining. What is the second black knob by the way? Most of them only have one.

Maybe I'll get a 15lb tank then I won't have to worry about it for a while](*,)


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Arggh... you're telling something I don't want to hear but probably _need_ to. I will sleep on it. I might even start things off with that regulator and take my time finding a dual stage one. That Harris one was cheap, but high output like Darkoon said. The Concoa seems like a good deal but is nevertheless a little more than what I just paid. They have 4 available so might be open to bargaining. What is the second black knob by the way? Most of them only have one.
> 
> Maybe I'll get a 15lb tank then I won't have to worry about it for a while](*,)


That second knob is a simple on/off valve. I always remove that part. You can leave if on if you want. You just have to find the fittings for it. I'm not sure what they are. The ones that I've seen aren't NPT threads.

The 312 Concoa has a 0 to 100 psi working pressure gauge which is fine. One of the guys at TheBarrReport bought three of them. He is using one now and he loves it. Herns is using a 212 series Concoa which is similar and he really likes his.

The Harris two stage regulators come in various pressure ranges just like the others. You don't necessarily have to use one with a 0 to 200 psi pressure range.

Matt's HPT270 is a nice one. It is chrome plated and it uses stainless steel diaphragms. It is a high purity regulator. I think he has an HPT500 too. It is similar in specs, but smaller. I can't recall what pressure ranges his regulators are. He told me that they are listed at plantedtank.com. You can check them out there if they are still available.

I'll check around and if I see a good one at a deal, I'll send you a PM.


----------



## Gramazing

I just got that Concoa for $45. I made an offer for 40, he came back with 45 and I accepted it.

So if any of you want one this guy has 2 more and he might take $45 again. In the meantime I have to sell a single stage regulator :twitch:

Also I have to find out what connections I need for this Concoa. If I go to Airgas or someone like that could they tell me?


----------



## Left C

Gramazing said:


> I just got that Concoa for $45. I made an offer for 40, he came back with 45 and I accepted it.
> 
> So if any of you want one this guy has 2 more and he might take $45 again. In the meantime I have to sell a single stage regulator :twitch:
> 
> Also I have to find out what connections I need for this Concoa. If I go to Airgas or someone like that could they tell me?


I'm glad that you got that regulator. It is a good one.

Most regulators, even the Concoa's, have a 1/4" NPT port. So you need a male 1/4" NPT for it.

EDIT: Then to rest of the fittings for it. Most solenoids have 1/8" NPT ports. The Fabco needle valve has #10-32 ports.


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## trag

darkoon said:


> $5 for CGA320 fitting,


Where did you find the CGA320 fitting for $5?

I'm putting together CO2 equipment and I bought a couple of two stage regulators on Ebay (a Victor 250D and a Matheson IL-540/81) and I think neither one has the CGA320 fitting.

I might have bought the beer regulator linked to in this thread, if I had done things in the right order. (Read, then buy, but how does one know when one has read enough?)


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## Gramazing

Left C said:


> I'm glad that you got that regulator. It is a good one.
> 
> Most regulators, even the Concoa's, have a 1/4" NPT port. So you need a male 1/4" NPT for it.
> 
> EDIT: Then to rest of the fittings for it. Most solenoids have 1/8" NPT ports. The Fabco needle valve has #10-32 ports.


I have some 10-32 to barb connectors on the way from this company:

http://www.towerhobbies.com/
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD624

I learned that 10-32 connectors are used sometimes in the remote control hobby - fuel lines for RC model airplanes and helicopters and such.

My concoa should arrive tomorrow, and I will be picking up a 15# CO2 tank from a local company for $50 filled. It was the guy from this company who sent me the link to towerhobbies.


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## Gramazing

trag said:


> Where did you find the CGA320 fitting for $5?
> 
> I'm putting together CO2 equipment and I bought a couple of two stage regulators on Ebay (a Victor 250D and a Matheson IL-540/81) and I think neither one has the CGA320 fitting.
> 
> I might have bought the beer regulator linked to in this thread, if I had done things in the right order. (Read, then buy, but how does one know when one has read enough?)


Tell me about it. It's a fine line between not reading enough and reading too much :icon_hang


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> I have some 10-32 to barb connectors on the way from this company:
> 
> http://www.towerhobbies.com/
> http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD624
> 
> I learned that 10-32 connectors are used sometimes in the remote control hobby - fuel lines for RC model airplanes and helicopters and such.
> 
> My concoa should arrive tomorrow, and I will be picking up a 15# CO2 tank from a local company for $50 filled. It was the guy from this company who sent me the link to towerhobbies.


That's good that you found someone with the #10-32 fittings. Clippard has them too.

Have you decided on a solenoid and which bubble counter are you going to use?

Jeremy at OAD has a post body kit using the Fabco needle valve, Clippard solenoid and a JBJ bubble counter. I have a picture of the parts, but I don't have a picture of an assembled unit.


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## Gramazing

I have a bunch of things coming via Ebay from a company in Hong Kong including a bubble counter and a reactor. The solenoid is the only thing I don't have on order yet. I tried to locate OAD online but their website kind of gave the impression they were on hiatus or something.


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## Left C

If you get in a pinch, I have two of the sherrodansurplus (sp.) Parker solenoids that I'll probably never use. Just let me know. Over at the barrreport.com is a DIY showing how to wire it.

I'll take $15 shipped for one and $25 shipped for both. These tended to fail if they were on continuously, but if you allowed them to cool every once in a while, they worked OK. You can do this with a timer by letting it turn off for 15 minutes a few times during the lighting cycle.


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## darkoon

try your local welding supply stores.



trag said:


> Where did you find the CGA320 fitting for $5?
> 
> I'm putting together CO2 equipment and I bought a couple of two stage regulators on Ebay (a Victor 250D and a Matheson IL-540/81) and I think neither one has the CGA320 fitting.
> 
> I might have bought the beer regulator linked to in this thread, if I had done things in the right order. (Read, then buy, but how does one know when one has read enough?)


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## Gramazing

Left C said:


> If you get in a pinch, I have two of the sherrodansurplus (sp.) Parker solenoids that I'll probably never use. Just let me know. Over at the barrreport.com is a DIY showing how to wire it.
> 
> I'll take $15 shipped for one and $25 shipped for both. These tended to fail if they were on continuously, but if you allowed them to cool every once in a while, they worked OK. You can do this with a timer by letting it turn off for 15 minutes a few times during the lighting cycle.


Thanks LeftC, but I will probably just get a Clippard one. I'd rather not worry about a solenoid failing on me.

I got a nice big 15 lb tank this morning for 50 buck filled. They will charge 20 for a refill. So the solenoid is the only thing I don't have on its way yet. Plus I have _two_ regulators, not one


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## darkoon

where did you get the co2 tank from? I am looking for one as spare right now



Gramazing said:


> Thanks LeftC, but I will probably just get a Clippard one. I'd rather not worry about a solenoid failing on me.
> 
> I got a nice big 15 lb tank this morning for 50 buck filled. They will charge 20 for a refill. So the solenoid is the only thing I don't have on its way yet. Plus I have _two_ regulators, not one


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## Gramazing

darkoon said:


> where did you get the co2 tank from? I am looking for one as spare right now


I got it from here:

http://www.haunweldingsupply.com/default.aspx?PageID=826&Section=SpecialtyGases

They are more or less local though.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Thanks Left C, but I will probably just get a Clippard one. I'd rather not worry about a solenoid failing on me. ...


Over the past year or so, the quality of the Clippard solenoids have faltered. There have been many reports about them leaking. This will empty a CO2 cylinder in just a few days. Some say that their seals are a problem. You can search and pick up quite a bit of information about this.

Many of us have used Clippard solenoids in the past without problems. I do not know what has changed to cause them to be bad now. Both SuMo and GLA do not use Clippard solenoids any more because of these issues.

This is from SuMo's site: http://www.sumoregulator.com/
"Please note:

In response to some concerns regarding the Clippard Solenoids we've tested and begun to use a new solenoid. Please note that prices have been updated to reflect the new solenoid. We'll update our pictures as soon as we can!

Thanks all,

Serg & Mike"

This is from GLA: http://greenleafaquariums.com/co2-regulators.html
"All of our custom CO2 Regulators now feature a world class, high performance GLA Solenoid. Our custom solenoids feature quality design and construction to achieve excellence in control, durability, and reliability. We feel confident that our custom GLA solenoid helps make our CO2 regulators and systems rise above the competition, see the difference for yourself in our blog article."

I would suggest getting a Burkert solenoid with either the Buna-N seals or the Viton seals. There is a waiting period of 5 to 7 weeks for the Buna-N models because they are custom made in Germany and then shipped to the US. Buna-N is among the best seal materials to use for CO2 duty. AquariumPlants.com has the Viton seal model in stock again. They are $48.99 with free shipping: http://www.aquariumplants.com/Burkert_Brass_Solenoid_Valve_Type_6011_p/bu6011.htm


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## Gramazing

Er... I just got a Milwaukee solenoid since that last post.


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## darkoon

did you get used or brand new from them?



Gramazing said:


> I got it from here:
> 
> http://www.haunweldingsupply.com/default.aspx?PageID=826&Section=SpecialtyGases
> 
> They are more or less local though.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Er... I just got a Milwaukee solenoid since that last post.


Great!

I haven't read of any problems with this solenoid.


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## Gramazing

darkoon said:


> did you get used or brand new from them?


It was used but has an up to date inspection sticker on it and a new coat of paint, which is very important of course.


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## Gramazing

GRRR! My Concoa arrived today, but it has a CGA 350 port, not 320. It is the same except it has a male bit sticking out.

However my Victor has the correct port but is single stage.... :frusty: and no I'm not mixing them up.


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## darkoon

just call your welding supply store to get a CGA320 nut and nipple.



Gramazing said:


> GRRR! My Concoa arrived today, but it has a CGA 350 port, not 320. It is the same except it has a male bit sticking out.
> 
> However my Victor has the correct port but is single stage.... :frusty: and no I'm not mixing them up.


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## Gramazing

Ug, they're all open only during business hours.

I wonder if the thread is the same? If it is I could just grind off the bit that sticks out. We have a metal grinding wheel at work.


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## darkoon

you would need a washer too if you manage to grind it off and assuming it fits. 
if you were going to do the work to grind it off, you would be better off to switch it with the single stage one you bought.



Gramazing said:


> Ug, they're all open only during business hours.
> 
> I wonder if the thread is the same? If it is I could just grind off the bit that sticks out. We have a metal grinding wheel at work.


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## Gramazing

darkoon said:


> you would need a washer too if you manage to grind it off and assuming it fits.
> if you were going to do the work to grind it off, you would be better off to switch it with the single stage one you bought.


I would like to sell the single stage one intact if possible. If I swapped the ports around the single stage one would have a brass body and a plated nut and nipple, and that would never do.

The guy who sold me the tank gave me a bunch of nylon washers, enough to last me about 10 years.


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## Gramazing

The guy from Haun Welding Supply gave me a CG 320 nut and nipple! I emailed him and asked him if there was a way I could get one after hours (they close at 5) and he just tied a tag to it and left it on the porch outside the company's office in Syracuse. I drove over there tonight and got it. He said no charge! That's pretty good service, eh? I left my CG 350 there for him.


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## Left C

Good deal! "It don't get no better than that!!"


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## Gramazing

Hey, what's that braided metal tubing that came with my regulator (no pic ATM). Can I use that? I take it it's designed to handle a certain amount of pressure. It might be neater inside my stand if I use it, then I could mount the rest of my stuff to a board or something.

Edit: it looks like this:


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Hey, what's that braided metal tubing that came with my regulator (no pic ATM). Can I use that? I take it it's designed to handle a certain amount of pressure. It might be neater inside my stand if I use it, then I could mount the rest of my stuff to a board or something.
> 
> Edit: it looks like this:


That's a nice looking Concoa!

You can use the tubing if:

It is attached to your output (and it probably is; I can't tell in the picture.)
You can find the fittings for it to attach your solenoid, needle valve, etc. (they usually have specific fittings for their specific end use and adapters for NPT can sometimes be hard to find)

Most people would remove it, but if you can make it work, go for it.

The 10 to 30 psi that we normally use should not present any problems with it.


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## Gramazing

Oh that's not mine, I found that pic online to illustrate the type of tubing. Although mine does look a bit like that.

So my Milwaukee solenoid arrived today, the only thing I'm waiting on is the reactor/bubble counter/co2 tubing - plus I think I am going to need a reducer to get from the regulator to the solenoid.

BTW the solenoid has A and B on it and no instructions. Does anyone know which is in and which is out?


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## Left C

Here are three different ways to build a regulator with the output coming out at 9 o'clock.

Epitaph


Left C said:


> Many dual stage regulators have the output at 7 o'clock. These particular high purity regulators and Concoas have their output at 9 o'clock. So, there is some differences in assembly.
> 
> In the Victor thread, Epitaph assembled a high purity regulator that I really liked. The output came out at 9 o'clock or 180°. Then it dropped straight down 90° via an elbow for an inch or two. Next was another °90 elbow that headed to the front where the needle/metering valve was mounted. This made the adjusting knob straight out like a tuning knob on an old radio. Along this path, there were a few different places to put the solenoid. In this case, the solenoid was after the first 90 elbow and somewhat hidden from view by the bubble counter. The reason that the design dropped down was to allow room for the JBJ bubble counter. This design made the whole assembly compact.
> 
> This is Epitaph's assembled high purity Victor SGT500.
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...-stage-regulator-pimp-club-92.html#post913013


herns


herns said:


> Here again is my Concoa 212 series. That stainless 320 nut & nipple in ebay is expensive. I would stick to brass for awhile until I get the 1993's.
> I need to order the clippard valves: MJCV-1AA you mentioned.
> 
> Youve always been of help.
> Thanks, Left C.


Martin Schellinck


Martin Schellinck said:


>


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> Oh that's not mine, I found that pic online to illustrate the type of tubing. Although mine does look a bit like that.


I know. I remember seeing your regulator on ebay with the tubing.



Gramazing said:


> So my Milwaukee solenoid arrived today, the only thing I'm waiting on is the reactor/bubble counter/co2 tubing - plus I think I am going to need a reducer to get from the regulator to the solenoid.


When you completely remove the tubing assembly there is a 1/4" FPT port on the regulator. I don't know what fittings that attach your tubing assembly or if any part of it can be used (salvaged).

The solenoid has 1/8" FPT ports.

So, you will need a 1/4" NPT x 1/8" NPT reducer of some sort unless you can use part of the tubing assembly.



Gramazing said:


> BTW the solenoid has A and B on it and no instructions. Does anyone know which is in and which is out?


"A" should be in and "B" should be out.

May I ask, where did you get your Milwaukee solenoid and how much was it?


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## Gramazing

I got the solenoid from eseasongear.com and it was $36.95 with the cord.

There's nothing I can salvage from the tubing - it had what I assume are 1/4" NPT male threads on either end, although they look bigger than 1/4". I guess it's a nominal dimension though.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> I got the solenoid from eseasongear.com and it was $36.95 with the cord.


Thanks for the info.



Gramazing said:


> There's nothing I can salvage from the tubing - it had what I assume are 1/4" NPT male threads on either end, although they look bigger than 1/4". I guess it's a nominal dimension though.


They do measure more than 1/4", 1/8", etc.


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## Gramazing

So I got some fittings from McMaster Carr, which now gives me 2 options for connecting up the whole thing. I think I will connect it with the braided tubing because if I connect the solenoid directly to the regulator with the male to male reducer there is no room to tighten it. I have to rotate the solenoid around and around to tighten it once the other end is tightened to the regulator, but the side of the solenoid will hit on the regulator dial when it goes around. The pic of Martin Schellinck's setup looks like it would have too, where the blue tubing is wrapped around. I don't get why it didn't - maybe he took the dial off to attach it and put it back on later.

Anyway, I think it will look more professional if I use the braided tube, then I can mount everything to one side on a sheet of plywood or sheet metal. The needle valve in particular I can mount bulkhead style.


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## Gramazing

So here's another question. I bought one of these reactors off Ebay:










It turns out they are meant to go into the tank and be hooked up to a powerhead, but my intention was to connect it to the outlet of the filter under the tank. I just filled it with water and it's not water tight but I can glue it together and I think it will still look better than the old home made pipe jobs. Has anyone tried this?

Also the inlet and outlet diameters are smaller than my half inch tube for my filter. Would that add too much pressure and slow the flow of water?


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## Gramazing

I haven't got an answer to the questions about the reactor in the previous post being external.... but what I have decided to do, at least as an experiment, is to run the CO2 line from my bubble counter to a wooden airstone placed under the intake of my canister filter. I know this is controversial, but some people have done it for years and have had no problems. My canister filter came with a skimmer which I used for while and that used to suck up air bubbles that I could hear going through the filter. The air bubbles never built up in the filter as far as I could tell. I would imagine the CO2 would be mostly dissolved by the time it got to the impeller anyway.


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## Gramazing

I have another question:

I screwed my regulator up hard against the tank, really cranked on it like they recommend. I have a nylon washer in there. Despite how hard I tightened it the regulator can still turn relative to the tank. I discovered this when I tightened up the connection to the solenoid at the other end. Is this normal?


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## darkoon

Gramazing, did you manage to grind the top of that CGA350 off to fit it to your co2 tank?


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## Gramazing

darkoon said:


> Gramazing, did you manage to grind the top of that CGA350 off to fit it to your co2 tank?


No, the guy who sold me the tank gave me a CGA320. He left it outside his office for me to get after hours and I left him the 350. I don't know whether he needed it or not but I certainly didn't.


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## Left C

Gramazing said:


> I have another question:
> 
> I screwed my regulator up hard against the tank, really cranked on it like they recommend. I have a nylon washer in there. Despite how hard I tightened it the regulator can still turn relative to the tank. I discovered this when I tightened up the connection to the solenoid at the other end. Is this normal?


No, it shouldn't move.

The regulator should be firmly attached so that you can't rotate it around. Use a large crescent wrench, 1 1/8" open end wrench or even a pipe wrench to put the "big arm" on it.


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## Gramazing

Wow, I'm going to have to borrow the big wrench again from work. I thought I did it so tight before I was going to break something.


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## Gramazing

Left C said:


> No, it shouldn't move.
> 
> The regulator should be firmly attached so that you can't rotate it around. Use a large crescent wrench, 1 1/8" open end wrench or even a pipe wrench to put the "big arm" on it.


Here is a pic of a couple of the gaskets/washers the guy who sold me the CO2 tank gave me. Are they the right ones? Also, no teflon tape on the CGA320 thread, right?


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## Left C

Those are fine and no Teflon tape.


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## Gramazing

Okay, so it's just more brute force then. I can do that.


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## Gramazing

So.... no explosions, but I haven't had any luck either. I undid the regulator today, replaced the gasket and tightened it back on to the tank and for some reason I got it to tighten up now.

So I connected everything up (I cracked the tank beforehand and blew off a few fridge magnets 6 feet away ), screwed my little panel up and nervously starting things off. I turned the regulator knob back all the way, backed the needle valve right back, although I didn't reach a stopping point so I stopped because I thought the needle might fall out. Then I eased the main knob on the tank open.

I got nothing on the dial, until I started tightening the regulator knob down. The low side dial went up to 10 but I have got nothing coming out. Here is my setup:










The gas is going in the back of the Milwaukee solenoid, out the front, then it dips through the panel to the back of my Fabco, out the side of my Fabco and into my bubble counter, out through the check valve and off to a spare tank with just water and an airstone. I am getting no bubbles though my bubble counter. I hear no hissing. And yes, the extra knob on the left side of my regulator for open/close is open.

The high side dial reads only about 800 psi. Is that right? I thought it should be more. Anyone know what's going on? The tank weighs plenty so it must be full. Please don't tell me the regulator's no good.


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## Gramazing

I started it up again and now it's working! 

That happens to me lot... I something, it doesn't work, do it again and the 2nd or 3rd time it does!

The only thing I need to do now is the soapy water trick to make sure I don't have any leaks.


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## Left C

That's great! Good job!!!

There is a leak testing solution that you can get a Lowes, Home Depot that works well, I've been told. But Windex, a soapy solution, etc works too.

The hose that came with your Concoa sure looks like it came in handy!!


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## Gramazing

So I mixed up my 4dkH solution tonight and put the drop checker in my tank. I've also connected up the CO2 line to my tank. I'm not happy with my diffusion method and will probably do something about it this weekend. Here's what my drop checker looks like:










Hey! Get out of the way you dumb fish!!










I only just put it in and it has a green-ish tint already. Hmmm, I thought it was supposed to be blue when it starts out.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Gramazing,

It looks good, however your "bulb" is a little full. Next time just fill it until the "bulb" is 1/2 full. What you want is maximum surface between the indicator solution and the air pocket. That way the indicator solution will change color more quickly.


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## Gramazing

Yeah, I thought that too.


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## Gramazing

So... it's been a couple of weeks and the results have been pretty cool! Especially considering my method of diffusion is not the best.

My plants are pearling:









Every now and then one of my amazon swords will burp a big bubble.

This is my moneywort, which has been sitting there not doing anything except grow BBA. Now it's throwing out new shoots and new root hairs. The top 2-3 inches of each stem is new. I'm thinking of laying some of them them down in the substrate so the roots will take.










So thanks everyone for your advice, especially LeftC !


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Gramazing,

It is amazing how much of a difference CO2 makes!


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## Left C

Those are some very nice looking, healthy plants now. I love them bubbles! Controlled CO2 is great stuff.

Do you know what you call a big bubble that is released from an underwater plant? It's a part!


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