# Nano NPT bowl



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I ordered a hanging plexyglass bubble to start my first shrimp bowl. It will be 100% NPT because there will be no artificial light, heater, filter or any circulation system. But it will be a high energy system because I will hang it on my west facing windows to receive half day window filtered sunlight.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Home-Mount...var=690285574531&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

The water volume is about half a gallon, so it is truly nano. Substrate will be garden soil capped with dolomite gravel . I plan to dry start with Monte Carlo as carpet plant and will add Anubias petite and duck weed later to provide shade. I plan to raise shrimp and will likely get Neocaridina species as I read that they are easy for beginner.

Do you think it will work? What advises can you provide in anticipation of problems I will encountered.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Wow that with be a toughie
good luck.

IMO:
highly doubt monte carlo would come even relatively close to living in there.
Anubias would get to much algae from sunlight on it (specifically green spot algae)
and the shrimp imo wouldn't do to great.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This will be tricky, mainly because it is so small. But still worth a try. Do include some fast growing stems and floating plants from the start. This will help to stabilize the set up.

You likely will need to experiment with different locations to get the light level right. Try several different species of plants. It is hard to predict which will grow well, and it is really important to have healthy growing plants even if they aren't your first choice.


----------



## FromReefs2Plants (Aug 14, 2017)

If you used a 2-3 gallon bowl it would be much easier. 1/2g is very tiny


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

One of the big problems with very small tanks is water temperature. A large tank tends to have a very stable temperature, and a very small tank will tend to be at room air temperature. So, if the room gets hot, the water gets hot, and the same with low temperatures. Only a few fish can tolerate that kind of temperature instability.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

It came in today. It's close to 3/4 gallon filling to the top. I hanged the bowl on the window directly above a HVAC outlet, so I expect the temp to fluctuate between 65 to 82 as set in my house thermostat, give and take a couple degrees due to cold draft and direct sunlight at the window. 

It's experimental to me and hope shrimp will work out, if not, I will keep guppy, white cloud, paradise fish or grow kitchen herb. The bowl looks nice and decorative.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Keep us up on how this works out, with pics! It is something I wanted to do many years ago, but backed out of because of the temperature problem. It is certainly a nice design.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> It came in today. It's close to 3/4 gallon filling to the top. I hanged the bowl on the window directly above a HVAC outlet, so I expect the temp to fluctuate between 65 to 82 as set in my house thermostat, give and take a couple degrees due to cold draft and direct sunlight at the window.
> 
> It's experimental to me and hope shrimp will work out, if not, I will keep guppy, white cloud, paradise fish or grow kitchen herb. The bowl looks nice and decorative.


i wanna make this Very noticeable that *no fish should be kept in a tank even close to that size.* That's like putting a human in a dresser drawer for the rest of their life.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DutchMuch said:


> i wanna make this Very noticeable that *no fish should be kept in a tank even close to that size.*
> 
> I agree. If the shrimp don't work out, I would go with a nice herb garden.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Just set it up with Monte Carlo dry start and a Japanese Maple as a center piece in the look through background. 

I am thinking of using a giant hair grass for background and Anubias or Buce on a small piece of rock for mid ground. There will be about 1/2 gal water volume left for the shrimp after subtracting substrate and plants volume. 

Since the location receives all afternoon sunlight, I am anticipating algae problem when the bowl is filled. I am wondering if I should add duck weed to cut down some but not all sunlight which comes in at an angle. I am choosing between ramshorn snail or ottos to take care of GDA. For green water, I can introduce daphnia culture from my outdoor tub. 

I am hopeful that I won't have to deal with BBA as I read that BBA don't thrive in direct sunlight.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> ottos to take care of GDA.


_Just assuming my entire post went unseen _


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

At that location the tank water will get very cold in the winter. I doubt that even double pane windows would prevent it from getting too cold - New Jersey does experience some really cold temperatures in the winter. The tank seems to be in direct contact with the window glass, making it an almost sure thing that the water will cool off very fast.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I hanged the bowl on a hook tied to a fish line. It's leaning forward so it only touches the glass on the bottom with a small air cushion. That said, it still gets cold draft and direct sun heat at the window, but it is buffered to some extent by a HVAC vent directly underneath 

Any unheated tank will go through diurnal and seasonal fluctuation of temp. The temp change is not sudden, but gradual. What is too cold depends on the tolerance of the species. Subtropical species can handle the temp gyration well as it is natural in their habitats. I wouldn't expect cardinal tetra to do well in an unheated tank. Some subtropical species actually need chilling period to breed successfully. I read that crystal shrimp is a subtropical species, so I may try it first over the easier cherry shrimp.

I keep outdoor planters for daphnia, live bearers and white cloud in warm months and they thrive and multiply. In spring and fall, night temp is in 50s and summer day temp in 80s. The biggest threat is heat wave that depletes O2 as I can see fish grasping for air on the surface and I have to spray water to keep cool. 

As for the size of the bowl, I don't believe it is unfit for all fish. There are many nano size fish that can fit in small container. A 1/2 gallon bowl has more room for a betta than an oscar in a 75 gal. The constraint is not the size, but the lack of circulation, so the number and size of fish that can be kept is limited.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> As for the size of the bowl, I don't believe it is unfit for all fish. There are many nano size fish that can fit in small container. A 1/2 gallon bowl has more room for a betta than an oscar in a 75 gal. The constraint is not the size, but the lack of circulation, so the number and size of fish that can be kept is limited.


Its fine if you dont believe its unfit for all fish. That's great.

Scientifically the fish of any size (going all the way down to rasboras) will most certainty somehow stunt in growth (have mental issues) and in the end die at an abnormal age. As well as suffer from other problems such as temp fluctuations even an hardy fish can suffer stress from this.

"The constraint is not the size, but the lack of circulation" this quote just... pierces my brain. Everything ive been studying for 7 years is a lie then. Damn.










And ill add just cause this is the crazies thing ever to ya, a beta can have a minimum 5 gallons.

1/2 gallon bowl has more room for a betta than an oscar in a 75 gal. 
And that's untrue. if you do the math a 75 gallon has more extra space than it does a beta in a 1/2 gallon. 
Shouldn't have both in both anyway.

No fish will fit, not even the smallest because - Rasboras, the smallest fish i can think of, need at least a group of 6, 6 in there you simply cannot have its Basic kindergarten math and science. and if you say a beta will fit refer to my last few sentences.

Small fish are more than likely the heaviest of schoolers. Causing even more problems if you understock on them on your end at all which you shouldn't anyway cause imo its torture.
Another small fish such as Dario Dario wouldn't work as you suggest because it needs a lot of space since its a predatory fish in its natural habitat feeding off of your shrimp. It will surely stunt.

i could go on.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Shouldn't we just try our ideas, even if everyone else thinks our ideas are totally wrong? I think we should. Every time we set up a new aquarium, of any size, there is a chance that we may do something so wrong that our fish will suffer. This is especially true for us when we are really new to this hobby. And, even the aquarium stores can, and do mistreat their fish for sale, in many ways. I try to be a responsible fish keeper, and I think virtually all of us do the same, but the only way to be sure you don't harm a fish is to not keep one at all. 

The "right" thing for tiger15 to do, in my opinion, is to let us share his experience. If this doesn't work at all well, and he lets us know it, we won't be likely to repeat his experience, and the fish we might mistreat won't be mistreated.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> The "right" thing for tiger15 to do, in my opinion, is to let us share his experience. If this doesn't work at all well, and he lets us know it, we won't be likely to repeat his experience, and the fish we might mistreat won't be mistreated.


Hoppy i think i have to respectfully disagree with you, although i do know what you mean and in some cases i would agree with you, but in this case i dont. Reason i say this is because in this case there is extensive proof, scientific evidence, and other people who have done the same thing (with the fish in this size of a tank) that he can read or look upon. 
It is not for Us to learn as we already know (not counting the people who are viewing this, that i do not know) but to help guide him in the right direction.

If he decides to go out with this there's unfortunately nothing more i can do to prove to him with facts that he is bound for failure keeping fish in that size of an aquarium. Yes im aware that sounds pretty strong.


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

I am with DutchMuch on this. I honestly see no point in trying to keep any fish in a small "vase", especially long term. It is barely enough for plants, couple of snails and some hardy shrimp. 
In my opinion, experiment makes sense if you are not sure about the outcome, but in this case, I'm afraid we all know how it's going to end, sooner or later.

Just because you can fit something in a bowl, it doesn't mean that it can live there forever.. 








(Sorry, couldn't resist)


----------



## FromReefs2Plants (Aug 14, 2017)

to add on, 1/2 is too small for any fish. esp one that has no flow, and is unheated. 

VW also paid a research firm to do an experiment on monkeys that involved pumping diesel exhaust into an enclosed container. (VW bug w/defeat device vs older diesel f250)

I don't think we need to see that done to know it would be harmful to the monkeys.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I have no interest in keeping fish in a small bowl. I already have multiple tanks (125, three 75, 30 and 20) with fish and one high tech planted. My goal is to start a NPT with carpet plant and shrimp as garnish. I may keep a solo Otto for algae control, because the alternative is snail which I am afraid may multiply like roaches. I am aware that fish need personal space to avert aggression, yet better to live in a group to behave naturally and interestingly. A small bowl will place constrain on both, not to mention the challenge of water management with no circulation. The exception is betta or paradise fish in a bowl. These are anti social and air breathing fish that don't mind living solo in stagnant water. Paradise is perfect because it is subtropical and can tolerate extreme temp gyration.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> I have no interest in keeping fish in a small bowl. I already have multiple tanks (125, three 75, 30 and 20) with fish and one high tech planted. My goal is to start a NPT with carpet plant and shrimp as garnish. I may keep a solo Otto for algae control, because the alternative is snail which I am afraid may multiply like roaches. I am aware that fish need personal space to avert aggression, yet better to live in a group to behave naturally and interestingly. A small bowl will place constrain on both, not to mention the challenge of water management with no circulation. The exception is betta or paradise fish in a bowl. These are anti social and air breathing fish that don't mind living solo in stagnant water. Paradise is perfect because it is subtropical and can tolerate extreme temp gyration.


And there is no hope....

Unfortunately you cannot get everyone to listen, but only the people with ears.

Final post in this thread, i will not be following.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I abandoned the dry start. Direct sun is too strong and as soon as I observed the beginning of leaf burning, I flooded the bowl. I also set up a second bowl with hair grass, the first one with Monte Carlo, and added floating Amazon Frobits to both. Because the sun light is at an angle, the floating plants do not provide much shade, but provide good shelter for future inhabitants. I read that floating plant is good for NPT to mop up extra nutrients, and oxygenate the water through the hanging roots.

Here are the pics of two bowls. 

Algae hasn't popped up yet, and I 'll wait and see what will come up and find a remedy. The plants are pearling like crazy though when the sun hits the bowl, so they must be growing. The small footprint of the bowl allows me to provide 70% coverage with just one cup of plant tissue.

Substrate is organic rich soil from my garden. The gravel cap and water in the bowl were transferred from an established tank, so they are seeded with BB. I throw in a tiny fry a couple days after flooding to test the water. The fry thrives indicating the water is cycled and the absence of NH3 or nitrite. I realize it will be impossible to net the fry or any swimming creatures out of the bowl because of the small opening and curved wall. If I have to remove creatures in the future, I have to drain the bowl and pick them out dry and bouncing.

I monitored the bowl temp, night time 69, afternoon 85 when the sun hits. Note that it is spring. Winter and summer temp will certanly range higher and low to probably 60 to 90, and I can verify later. From my research, the temp range for Cherry shrimp is 65 to 85, so the bowl temp will fall out of their comfort range. So there is a chance Cherry shrimp won't make it, but I will see and hope I were wrong. If shrimp doesn't work out, I'll maintain a fishless planted bowl, or throw in a lone paradise fish.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice. I love the bowl with the Hairgrass. This plant never looked prettier and it fits perfectly!

I would protect the soil layer from direct sunlight. Sun shining so directly on soil can stimulate growth of algae and produce unwanted chemical reactions. I would consider doing something (e.g., put a short strip of duct tape) on the bottom of the bowl to keep direct sunlight off the substrate, especially the soil. This would also lower the temperature a wee bit on super hot days.

As an adult, the Paradise Fish (_Macropodus opercularis_) gets to be 8 cm (>3 inches) in length and requires an 80 liter tank. Perhaps you are thinking of some other fish with the same common name?

A small Killifish might be perfect for this unique "biotope"--small water volume, high temperature fluctuation, etc. They are used to a tiny environment. AND at the end of the season, you could collect eggs and store them in dry peat moss for the next year.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Yes, it’s a good idea to tape something to block off the light on the soil. 

My goal is to keep invertebrate, not fish. I have 6 other big fish tanks with big fish in my house and don’t need more fish. I only think of keeping fish in the bowl as a back up if shrimp doesn’t work out. The reason I’m throwing out the idea of paradise is that it is a subtropical species that can tolerate high heat and chill. In their rice paddie habitats, summer heat in stagnant water can hit 90s, and winter in the 40s. White Cloud is another subtropical that can handle extreme temp, but must be kept in a school and there isn’t enough room in the bowl. Paradise, like betta, is a loner that is happy in small quarter. When I was a kid living in subtropical zone, I kept dozens of betta in quart jars. Now that I am in temperate zone, betta isn’t the right fish in bowl.

It’s experimental and I hope that cherry shrimp will work out. Killy is a good idea, but I know nothing about and have never kept kill. Are there other subtropical nano species, invertebrate or fish, that will likely work out.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Today I monitored the pH before and after direct sunshine period. Early in the morning, the pH is around 7.4, and by the afternoon after 3 to 4 hour direct sun, the pH is off the chart to 8.5. So in addition to diurnal temp increase of 15 degree or more, the pH also increased by 1 point or more. The kH stays at around 6. 

Pearling has begun very lightly in dawn with bright shade, and accelerated into continuous stream when the sun hit in the afternoon. I cut a shade to block off the soil, and also a bigger piece with windows for use in summer.

I don't know if Cherry shrimp can tolerate the diurnal fluctuation. In my research, I came across Mexican dwarf crayfish, native of southern US to Mexico, which appears to have a better chance.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Could the pH change be caused by the more rapid growth of the plants, with more light on them, causing them to use more of the available CO2, thus reducing the amount in the water, which causes the pH to rise? I have never seen that happen, but in theory it should happen.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> DMC.


Needs a bigger tank.
Almost like every other thing.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

tiger15 said:


> Today I monitored the pH before and after direct sunshine period. Early in the morning, the pH is around 7.4, and by the afternoon after 3 to 4 hour direct sun, the pH is off the chart to 8.5. So in addition to diurnal temp increase of 15 degree or more, the pH also increased by 1 point or more. The kH stays at around 6.
> 
> Pearling has begun very lightly in dawn with bright shade, and accelerated into continuous stream when the sun hit in the afternoon. I cut a shade to block off the soil, and also a bigger piece with windows for use in summer.
> 
> I don't know if Cherry shrimp can tolerate the diurnal fluctuation. In my research, I came across Mexican dwarf crayfish, native of southern US to Mexico, which appears to have a better chance.


Diurnal fluctuation of pH and CO2 is typical in natural systems (my book, pp. 91-95). One softwater pond showed a pH of 5.7 in morning and 9.6 at noon (p. 95)--all due to rampant photosynthesis.

You have a fully functioning ecosystem going! Plants are removing CO2, thereby raising the pH, and pumping out oxygen.

Tadpoles might enjoy becoming frogs in one of these bowls.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Could the pH change be caused by the more rapid growth of the plants, with more light on them, causing them to use more of the available CO2, thus reducing the amount in the water, which causes the pH to rise? I have never seen that happen, but in theory it should happen.


pH swing is actually quite common in natural water. In Lake Okeechobee in Florida, for example, diurnal pH fluctuation can be as much as 1.5 point due to photosynthesis stripping off CO2 in day light,and CO2 replenishment at night. Walstad book has a discussion of the phenomenon.

So the pH swing is not a surprise to me. What surprised me is the bowl has not turned into an algae soup yet. The only algae I saw so far is green thread algae. I haven't observed any GDA, GSA or green water except for a tiny amount of BBA on the gravel I transferred from my high tech tank. If the intense light were artificial, there would likely be an explosion of algae in the absence of CO2 dosing. Maybe the plant mass is high, natural sun light has algae inhibition effect, or it is still too early to tell.

I introduced a few ramshorn snail to prevent algae. Next week I may introduce cherry shrimp to see how they do, which is known to eat thread algae. I don't have an NH3 test kit, but since the guppy fry is thriving, I assume the water is ready for shrimp. The shrimp won't like the high noon temp, but O2 is likely supersaturated simultaneously which may alleviate the impact.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Here is an update, some good and bad news.

The good news is the hair grass bowl is doing great. The grass is very lush and I can see root spreading in the soil by looking underneath the bowl. The Amazon Frogbit is taking over and I have to thin out soon. I am wondering if floating plants blocking the surface is good or bad. They block out air exchange, yet during lighting period, the roots are pearling with O2. I did a nitrate test and it's barely detectable (< 5 ppm), considering that I transferred high nitrate (40 to 80 ppm)water from my other tank. I took a water ample to a LFS and check for NH3 and nitrite, and they are non detectable. 

The bad news is the Monte Carlo bowl wasn't as lush, got more thread algae, and crashed finally. I don't mean biological crash but physical crash as the hook came off. I glued the plastic hook with silicone onto the glass and the bowl sat on top of the window rim, so the hook did not bear the full weight, just preventing the bowl from flipping. But the glue yielded after 2 weeks and bowl fell and crashed. 

The good out of the bad news is that my better bowl survived. My remedy is to hang the bowl with quadruple 50 lb fish line onto the window hinges and believe it should be safe.

Despite the accident, I like these acrylic bowls so much that I bought two more to grow kitchen herb. I am ready and eager to introduce shrimp soon. I am looking for blue cherry shrimp as their dark color should look good on bright window background.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Finally bought 8 blue cherry shrimp at a fish club auction. After drip acclimating the shrimp for 3 hours, they were introduced into the bowl. Next day, the shrimp are still alive and actively foraging. I can't count all of them as they are really tiny (some less than 0.5 inch ) and can easily disappear. I guess they are doing OK as of now, no death yet, but wait a few more days to see how they do. Also bought a few red ramshorn snail for color contrast and acrylic cleaner, not that I notice any GDA. Even the green thread algae I noticed a week ago is mysteriously gone. So direct sun light won't automatically trigger algae if something is done right.


----------



## JLingen (May 10, 2018)

Fascinating. 

It would be interesting to see how Otocinclus would do in this environment. As schooling fish, I have 6 in my 55g tank and I never see them during the day, unless I peek behind the Amazon sword in the shady corner during the day and see them huddled together. 

Occasionally, I’ll peek at them at night with a single weak led light and they are working fervently, nocturnally together. 

It would be interesting to see how an Otocinclus would react in an environment with no shady place to hide, nor the moderate flow of water they prefer. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

JLingen said:


> It would be interesting to see how an Otocinclus would react in an environment with no shady place to hide, nor the moderate flow of water they prefer.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Would just stress them out. Most/if not all otto's are wild caught so that's just not nice to put them in something they Really dont do well in / dont like.


----------



## Dale-CT (Feb 13, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> I would protect the soil layer from direct sunlight. Sun shining so directly on soil can stimulate growth of algae and produce unwanted chemical reactions. I would consider doing something (e.g., put a short strip of duct tape) on the bottom of the bowl to keep direct sunlight off the substrate, especially the soil.


Can you explain this in a bit more detail please? Are you saying that:
- if the sun shines directly from above and onto the gravel cap, that is OK, but 
- if the sun hits the tank from the side and shines on the soil below the gravel cap, then that is a problem.

So basically, should I be trying to keep the sun off the gravel as well as the soil below?


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Not too worry! Photosynthetic algae needs light. Where the soil intersects with the aquarium glass, light falls onto the nutrient-rich environment of the soil. That provides a unique environmental niche for photosynthetic algae. These algae are not competing with plants, and as far as I know, are totally harmless.

The gravel layer would block most light coming from above, so that downward-directed light would not stimulate this algae. Light coming from the side is what does it. So there's no need to shield the gravel if you don't like this interesting algae.

Now, for more colors, here is a picture from a bottle test I did years ago. See the pinkish layer between clay soil and gravel The bottles were kept in a dark cardboard box for several weeks, so this is not algae. What it is is precipitated iron. The iron in this clay soil became soluble (Fe2+) and slowly moved upwards. As it did, it encountered oxygen and precipitated into the pinkish iron oxides shown.

I thought it was pretty cool. Happened over and over again.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I blocked the soil from direct sunlight to prevent additional heat build up. I am more concern about heat than cold. Cherry shrimp is a subtropical species native of Taiwan and South China so they can tolerate low temperature. The guy who sold me the shrimp keeps them in unheated containers in the basement. 

That said, a bowl should never be exposed to sunlight on the curved side because it can act as a magnifying glass focusing light to burning intensity. Mine is only a semi bowl with the flat surface facing the window so it is a not a concern.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Day 5, the shrimp are still alive. They were sluggish in the morning and became active in the afternoon when the sun hit the water. The color really popped under the sun. I saw many white dots moving relatively fast, white micro worms wriggling, and big dots with nucleus, about 1 mm, moving slowly on the acrylic. I am not able to identify them without a microscope, but look like food for the shrimp. 

I haven't fed the shrimp yet, and not sure if I need to as the bowl is so alive with micros.

I am glad that I started the shrimp in a bowl as their nano size will get lost in a bigger tank. The bowl is a big place for the shrimp and it has a magnifying effect that allows me to appreciate them close up. They forage around like carpenter ants in size and mannerism, and after all, ants and shrimp are both arthropods.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your shrimp are beautiful! It must be a great pleasure to watch them.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Your shrimp are beautiful! It must be a great pleasure to watch them.


Unfortunately, it's hard to see them. Shrimp aren't very active, and the hair grass and floating Frogbit are so lush now that they are lost in the jungle. I don't think their compound eyes can see well, so they don't interact with my presence. I need to use a flash light in darkness to spot and scare them off hiding places. I can't count all the shrimp I put in so I don't know if any died, but the good news is a couple females are carrying eggs, so hopefully by building up the population, they will become more active and visible. I don't feed the shrimp, the water is crystal clear, there is no trace of algae of any sort, even the bba infected plants I transferred from the high tech tank are gone within weeks. I have never stopped battling bba in my high tech tank, yet this unfiltered NPT bowl with strong direct sunlight and low co2 are algae free from start with no interference.

My next experiment is to introduce a few crystal red shrimp. I read that they are more difficult than cherry shrimp, and don't like hard water I have. But you never know until trying.


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

Do you monitor temperature?

The volume is rather small, maybe if sun hits it directly it can heat up very quickly...

At least this was a little bit of concern with my smaller NPTs that get sunlight.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Yes, I monitor the temp closely. I have detected temp gyration from 68 to 88 so far, but limiting to only two months experience in spring. The bowl is located directly above a vent that gets some buffering effect.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I didnt know temps flow in "gyrations" :/


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

The dwarf hair grass is so lush that they turn into a jungle. The Frogbit floaters grow so fast that I have to remove extra from time to time. I placed a floating air tube ring to open up some surface. The shrimp are thriving, molting, but I have no surviving shrimplets. I saw a couple shrimplets a while ago but they disappeared, not sure what stop them from multiplying successfully. Daily temperature range from low 70s to low 80s, and never hit mid or high 80s that I feared from heat waves. In a sunny day, pH rose from 7.2 to 8.5+ and in a cloudy day, no change at all. The plants respond correspondingly with intense pearling, or not at all.

It has exceeded my expectation that I have not encountered any algae from day one, so it demystified that direct sunlight is a recipe for algae. The shrimp bowl is doing so well that I decided and started a second bowl. 

The set up is different in the second bowl. I planted Sagittaria subulata as carpet plant, Xmass moss on rock, and retain Frogbit floaters. The biggest change is that I use black inert sand to cap the dirt instead of dolomite gravel as in the first bowl. The pH (8.5+) and kH (7) get too high in the first bowl, which I am afraid aren't optimal for cherry shrimp breeding. I'll see if the different set up will change the water parameters and outcome. I plan on keeping different color cherry shrimp, and perhaps crystal shrimp if the water parameters become softer.


----------



## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

Sorry if this has already been covered but...what are you feeding your shrimp? In that small of a space I'm willing to bet anything they are foraging on would be used up quickly. This could be the reason shrimplets aren't surviving to adulthood.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I haven’t fed the shrimp for the first whole month. Lately, I fed them with one Hikari fish pellet a day, but the snails get most of it. So the shrimp thrive on biofilm mostly, and may eat some Frogbit which has soft tissue snails love too. I started out with 8 shrimp, and still can count 7 so the adults are doing fine. They molt more often with feeding, but no shrimplets. May be I should stop feeding to get them to multiply.


----------



## kafkabeetle (Oct 11, 2011)

tiger15 said:


> I haven't fed the shrimp for the first whole month. Lately, I fed them with one Hikari fish pellet a day, but the snails get most of it. So the shrimp thrive on biofilm mostly, and may eat some Frogbit which has soft tissue snails love too. I started out with 8 shrimp, and still can count 7 so the adults are doing fine. They molt more often with feeding, but no shrimplets. May be I should stop feeding to get them to multiply.


Honestly, if they aren't successfully breeding I wouldn't call that thriving. They may be filling their bellies with what they find in the tank but most likely they are going to eventually run out of nutrients that they need to continue molting successfully and you'll only know something is wrong when one or more die. I know this from experience with several 2 gallon setups I never fed because I was enamored with the idea of closed systems...I now find that notion kind of tedious, irresponsible and ill advised.

Those temperature swings sound way too much within a single day as well. My tank experiences seasonal temperature swings but nothing like you get having your bowl in direct contact with the window. And I would worry that such a small volume of standing water would not contain enough oxygen to provide what your shrimp need through the day and night. I suggest an airstone at least. But of course this is your setup and your choice...


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Yes, I agree. If the shrimp aren’t multiplying, they aren’t thriving as they are short live creatures and will eventually die out. They are just surviving despite large daily temp and pH fluctuation.

I was worrying about low oxygen too, because high temp holds less O2. Oxygen depletion, rather than high temp, is the real cause of fish kill in heat wave. But I notice the plants are pearling heavily when the sun hits, so O2 saturation coincides with high temp. If there is O2 depletion, it will likely be in the cool morning hours prior to photosynthesis. So far I have not observed stressed out shrimp gasping for air. So I don’t think the bioload has exceeded the O2 carrying capacity and I think plants help oxygenate and recycle co2 despite lack of circulation.

My goal is to display these bowls on my living room window as aquatic bonsai. I already have a 125 gal fish only tank in my foyer, and a 75 high tech planted tank in my living room, plus a few more fully equipped tanks in my basement for grow out. I want to keep these show bowls simple and natural with no equipment and lines that ruin the esthetic, and no maintenance other than topping.

It’s my personal experiment in progress, so far so good, no disaster nor success in procreation. I’ll add more shrimp next week to both bowls to see how it goes. Stay tune.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Update pics on the shrimp bowls. 

After about a month, my second bowl has matured further, and I introduced a dozen red Cherry shrimp purchased from a local hobbyist. The dwarf sags have spread out above and below the soil, and I added some guppy grass that came with my shrimp purchase, and a couple Ludwigia stems came loose from my big tank. 

The first bowl is fully matured with hair grass turning into a thick forest about 2 inch high. I can hardly see the blue shrimp until they swim out actively, frequently in the afternoon when the sun shines or when molting is imminent. 

The temp max out around 85F, and night time low 70s. I haven't experienced cooking temp that I feared, so summer is fine and let's see how they do in winter. The shrimp are handling the large temp and pH swing well, feeding and molting normally, though no shrimplets yet and not sure if they are able to multiply in a 1 gal bowl.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

More pics.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Enjoyed the pics! 

I think you've done quite well with your glass bowls. (Count yourself lucky that the shrimp are not multiplying and over-populating their tiny world.)


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Enjoyed the pics!
> 
> I think you've done quite well with your glass bowls. (Count yourself lucky that the shrimp are not multiplying and over-populating their tiny world.)


Yes, you're right. I don't want over population and have to thin them out, as netting them in the dense jungle of hair grass will be next to impossible. My goal is not to multiply and sell the surplus, but want the population to self sustain. So far I have not seen one dead shrimp. They molt regularly, look happy, and I am happy if I can get couple years out of them. Besides topping, I haven't performed WC once, and rarely ever fed the shrimp, so I wonder if that's the reason I have no shrimplets.

These are high energy, low CO2 systems. I recently bought a LUX meter to check out the light intensity, and registered the following readings after conversion to PAR: 9:00 am morning shade, 22 PAR, 1:00 pm bright shade, 69PAR, and 6:30 pm direct sun, 389 PAR. Each day the bowls get 4 hour direct sun and about 4 hour bright shade, so there is huge amount of energy input. But the CO2 level I checked based on kH pH table is less than 0.5 ppm at peak sunlight. This is reflected with rapid growth of floaters due to aerial advantage, but the carpet plants growth rate is slow but steady.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thank you for posting PAR conversion readings. They are comparable to what I got using a PAR meter. 

Those low CO2 readings reflect what is left in the water following plant uptake. If the plants are growing, algae is not taking over, and your shrimp are okay, I'd say your bowls are a roaring success.

I've heard it's nearly impossible to catch baby shrimp in a planted tank.


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> It has exceeded my expectation that I have not encountered any algae from day one, so it demystified that direct sunlight is a recipe for algae.


I also have some outdoor tanks with direct sunlight. It works quite good, sometimes pearling.
However, during periods when the sun is very strong, plants get a bit of beating. Algae is at bay for me.
Algae is a tricky thing.

Congrats for the eleocharis parvula in the small tank.

I don't know much about RCS temperature tolerance, but I was quite surprised when I found shrimplets alive even though the top of the water got frozen in a outdoor tank. (Its really not that easy to remove ALL shrimp from a tank, I missed some.)


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

zolteeC said:


> I also have some outdoor tanks with direct sunlight. It works quite good, sometimes pearling.
> However, during periods when the sun is very strong, plants get a bit of beating. Algae is at bay for me.
> Algae is a tricky thing.
> 
> ...


Outdoor tank condition is different from my indoor bowls. Even though I hang my bowls by a west facing window, the temp is moderated by an HVAC vent below the window, so temp hasn't risen above 85F through several heat waves. I have outdoor tubs that I cultivate daphnia. Under the sun in summer heat, temp can reach 90+ and plants will suffer and daphnia stop producing

I am not surprised dwarf shrimp can take low temp. Neo and Caradina are subtropical species from Taiwan and southern China that get chilly in winter, and some originated from cool mountain stream. I don't know how far north their distribution extends. Amano shrimp can take even lower temp as I believe they are from temperate region of Japan.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Another update.

Finally, I saw a few red Cherry shrimplets in Bowl2. There are still no shrimplets in Bowl 1 despite having the same water parameters and care taking. Bowl1 and Bowl2 differ by one having hair grass and Ludwigia, and the other dwarf sag and Xmas moss.

I am blessed that I haven't come across one dead shrimp, having read many newbie posted about dead shrimp.

A surprise is that the Ludwigia repen grows very slowly despite receiving 4 hour direct sunlight. I guess a fast grower can become a slow grower if CO2 is limited.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beautiful blue shrimp.

I found _L. repens_ to be a very poor grower unless it goes emergent.

_Rotala rotundifolia_ is a stem plant with fine, reddish leaves that grows much better.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Yes, the blue shrimp have more solid color than the red shrimp, but they are not multiplying yet. I wonder if red shrimp are more prolific.

I don’t want fast growing stem as the bowl is only one gal. I’m so relieved that the Ludwgia is very slow growing. I have to thin out and trash the fast growing Frogbit weekly. I’m thinking of putting the surplus Frogbit in the grinder and turn it into shrimp food. Has anyone done it?


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Here is an update after 9 months. Both Hairgrass and dwarf sag in Bowls 1 and 2 have spread out carpeting the bottom. Some yellowing of the Hairgrass is observed, suggesting nutrients/carbon may be running out. So I started doing small WC in both bowls to replace with dirty water from my big tanks to furnish nutrients. 

The striking difference is Bowl 1 has vibrant frogbit, no shrimp left due to lack of reproduction, while Bowl 2 has withering frogbit, invasion of spirogyra, but somewhat stable shrimp population. In spring, I’ll introduce new shrimp back to Bowl 1 or may try a Mexican dwarf crayfish. Both bowls are practically algae free except for spirogyra in Bowl2 which I don’t mind and find it attractive, and the shrimp love to hang on to it.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> I found _L. repens_ to be a very poor grower unless it goes emergent.


in low tech?

erm... idk about that...


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> Mexican dwarf crayfish.


please dont.
These guys need a minimum of 5 gallons....


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

tiger15 said:


> The striking difference is Bowl 1 has vibrant frogbit, no shrimp left due to lack of reproduction, while Bowl 2 has withering frogbit, invasion of spirogyra, but somewhat stable shrimp population. In spring, I'll introduce new shrimp back to Bowl 1 or may try a Mexican dwarf crayfish. Both bowls are practically algae free except for spirogyra in Bowl2 which I don't mind and find it attractive, and the shrimp love to hang on to it.


I think that the spirogyra in Bowl #2 is an important food source for the shrimp.

Shrimp need to have vegetable matter to do well. If they don't get enough and/or they get too much protein, they can't molt properly and die out eventually.


----------

