# New NPT Setup!



## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I just got clearance from the wife to turn our new, sadly empty, 46 gallon bow-front into a NPT...
I'm here for advice on all the equipment, etc. Come on, everyone! You know you want to get your two cents worth in! 

So far I have decided:
Soil -> Miracle Grow Organic Choice
Heater -> Most likely a Hydor of the appropriate wattage.

Well, that's about it.  

I know I want to use a AquaClear HOB filter, with just the filter sponges for mechanical filtration, (maybe carbon the first week or so), and the aragonite I'm currently using in my 5 gallon NPT, since my tap water is pitifully devoid of nutrients or pH buffers. I just can't decide if I should use an AquaClear 30 or an AquaClear 50. Or does anyone recommend a canister filter (as I have a Hydor ETH in-line I need to return otherwise...)? Perhaps an Eheim Classic with just Eheim Mech, filter sponges, and of course the aragonite?

I am also having trouble deciding on lighting... The tank won't really get any natural sunlight, due to the setup of my living room. I was considering this (the 36" one), with a cool white (4100 K) bulb and a plant/daylight bulb. Would that be sufficient? This is only 1.7 wpg, but I hear the watts per gallon rule doesn't apply the same way to T5 HO.

Any kind of advice would be welcome and appreciated!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> I just got clearance from the wife to turn our new, sadly empty, 46 gallon bow-front into a NPT...
> I'm here for advice on all the equipment, etc. Come on, everyone! You know you want to get your two cents worth in!
> 
> So far I have decided:
> ...


Your good woman has opened the floodgates!

Lighting sounds fine. I think that canister filters are expensive and unnecessary for NPTs.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Your good woman has opened the floodgates!


:bounce: She is a good woman indeed! 

Thanks for your input, Ms. Walstad! I think this forum would be lost without you!

The reasons I even considered a canister filter:
- For once, my budget would allow it.
- It would reduce surface turbulence (so extra CO2 produced in soil wouldn't gas off, right?).
- With the Hydor ETH I already have, nothing would be in our beautiful tank except intake/spraybar.

Of course, if I get an AquaClear 50, given the amount of media I would have (not much) and the size of Hydor heaters, I maybe could get away with placing the heater in the filter... :-k

I will go with that lighting scheme, then. Time to start shopping for lowest price...


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

Hi, you should use some inorganic soil, top soil, clay or mud and mix it with the organic matter (miracle gro) you will have better results


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

prBrainapr said:


> Hi, you should use some inorganic soil, top soil, clay or mud and mix it with the organic matter (miracle gro) you will have better results


Actually, due to Draginduster's recent thread, I am now considering mineralized soil...



Forgotten Path said:


> Of course, if I get an AquaClear 50, given the amount of media I would have (not much) and the size of Hydor heaters, I maybe could get away with placing the heater in the filter...


Nope, the heater is WAY to long.



Forgotten Path said:


> I just can't decide if I should use an AquaClear 30 or an AquaClear 50.


AquaClear 30 -> 20 gallon to 30 gallon aquariums.
AquaClear 50 -> 30 gallon to 50 gallon aquariums.
Even though I just need something to move water, I think I would go with the AC 50 since its low end rating is just 30 gallons but the high end still covers my tank size. Now it's the AquaClear 50 vs an Eheim Classic 2215. Any more opinions on the canister?



Forgotten Path said:


> and a plant/daylight bulb.


Anyone ever tried the Current USA Freshwater Pink T5 HO? I can't find a spectrum or anything on it... I'm not really interested that much in using one, but I'm curious.

[Edit]
Forget the Nova Retrofit Kit. The 36" Nova Extreme Freshwater is cheaper and involves less work. The bulbs are actually useful too, as opposed to the actinics that come with the retrofit kit.
[Edit]


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

yeah mineralized soil is great but in my personal opinion it not have more iron that clay or similar soils. if you use mineralized soil try to mix it with some muddy soil, also it helps the plants too and mantain plant in place more easy.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> AquaClear 30 -> 20 gallon to 30 gallon aquariums.
> AquaClear 50 -> 30 gallon to 50 gallon aquariums.
> Even though I just need something to move water, I think I would go with the AC 50


To just move water, I would consider a powerhead. Unlike a hang-on-the-back filter, a powerhead does not continuously pour water into a tank. I used to have those filters on my tanks. But since getting rid of the filters, I much appreciate the resulting serenity.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

bartoli said:


> To just move water, I would consider a powerhead. Unlike a hang-on-the-back filter, a powerhead does not continuously pour water into a tank. I used to have those filters on my tanks. But since getting rid of the filters, I much appreciate the resulting serenity.


Well, I moved away from the powerhead because I want to place aragonite in the filter, as my tap water's pH easily drops below 6.4 when placed in a tank. I actually tested the water in my 5 gallon on day two and the pH was already 6.4 (when it came out of the tap at 7 ~ 7.2). Are there powerheads with prefilters that have space for media? I've never seen one, it would be pretty neat. And a good solution.

Okay:
Soil (or "bottom substrate") - mineralized soil 1" ~ 1.5"
Soil Cap - black sand .25" ~ .5"
Filter - AquaClear 50 or Eheim 2215
Heater - Hydor Theo 150 or Hydor ETH 200
Fish - Corys, Otos, and Rainbowfish
? Inverts - Amano or Cherry Shrimp, some type of snails ?
Plants - ?????

I don't have much experience with inverts. Could anyone recommend any particular spineless critters that would do well in NPT? And are there "plant packs" available online that would be great for NPT? I get the feeling I would just be looking for diversity. A pack would save me the trouble of ordering them separate (and maybe some $$).

Thanks for your input everyone!!


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

freshwateraquariumplants.com helped me a lot. He is not a big fan of NPT but if you ask him for a low CO2 fast growing assortment he will give you lots of diversity. It was very important for me to have emergent plants that tied the soil to the air. I did not necessarily agree with my reasoning but he obliged. In the end I got lots of very heathy plants. Way more than I had room for. They all have done well. Some a little too well.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Well, I moved away from the powerhead because I want to place aragonite in the filter, as my tap water's pH easily drops below 6.4 when placed in a tank. I actually tested the water in my 5 gallon on day two and the pH was already 6.4 (when it came out of the tap at 7 ~ 7.2). Are there powerheads with prefilters that have space for media?


At one time I needed to use Purigen in a tank that did not have a filter or powerhead. So I got a Marineland Submersible Utility Pump:

http://www.fishtankheaven.com/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=123

I placed the pump (rotated 90 degrees so the input was pointing upward) at a back corner in the tank. In order not to have water current blowing at plants, the pump's output was connected to a tubing that extended all the way to the other side of the tank. Then the tube was connected to an elbow to direct water to the surface. Right on top of the pump, next to the input (fitted with the attached strainer), I placed a bag of Purigen. That set-up worked very well.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

prBrianpr said:


> yeah mineralized soil is great but in my personal opinion it not have more iron that clay or similar soils. if you use mineralized soil try to mix it with some muddy soil, also it helps the plants too and mantain plant in place more easy.


I was going to follow this method, which adds clay to the soil for its iron content.



bartoli said:


> I placed the pump (rotated 90 degrees so the input was pointing upward) at a back corner in the tank. In order not to have water current blowing at plants, the pump's output was connected to a tubing that extended all the way to the other side of the tank. Then the tube was connected to an elbow to direct water to the surface. Right on top of the pump, next to the input (fitted with the attached strainer), I placed a bag of Purigen. That set-up worked very well.


Hmmm....
check this out
Just imagine the water flow reversed and foam, filter wool, etc. in the tube instead of CO2. I wonder how effective it would be? Like an internal Fluval with customizable media... And would it be cheaper than a powerhead with a prefilter? It certainly wouldn't cost more?


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> check this out


Ah, very interesting... if I can plug a syphon into the in-take of the Marineland pump, then I can put Purigen inside the syphon. The next time I use Purigen, I will give that a try. Thanks Forgotten Path.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

No problem, I'm glad you liked the idea! 

Has anyone ever used CaribSea Super Naturals Black Tahitian Moon Sand? I hear its a good product and was considering it for my soil cap... And has anyone ever considering mixing gravel with sand in order to keep it a little more "fluffy" and a little less anaerobic? Although with healthy plants that shouldn't be a problem, I'm paranoid by nature. :suspiciou


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> And has anyone ever considering mixing gravel with sand in order to keep it a little more "fluffy" and a little less anaerobic? Although with healthy plants that shouldn't be a problem, I'm paranoid by nature. :suspiciou


My experience has been that mixing sand and gravel doesn't work. Instead of mixing together, the sand usually just sinks down and separates from the gravel, resulting in 2 layers instead of 1. Another way to look at this is that the particle size of the gravel is so much larger than the particle size of the sand that the sand essentially just sinks down between the spaces between the gravel pieces.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

JeffyFunk said:


> My experience has been that mixing sand and gravel doesn't work. Instead of mixing together, the sand usually just sinks down and separates from the gravel, resulting in 2 layers instead of 1. Another way to look at this is that the particle size of the gravel is so much larger than the particle size of the sand that the sand essentially just sinks down between the spaces between the gravel pieces.


Yeah, that's what I was worried about, which is why I figured I would ask to see if anyone had had the experience before I decided to try it. Thanks for the heads up on that one. I guess I can consider Malaysian Trumpet Snails or something similar in order to keep the sand form getting too compact. I'm just worried that they may disturb the soil layer, and I have no experience regarding MTS. How deep do they typically go? I would be looking at having maybe an inch of sand, tops.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

In a tropical country, we tend to avoid using powerhead for a planted tank because it generates heat inside the tank. The weather here is already too hot and we actually need to lower the temperature of the tank with a fan or chiller to keep certain plants or shrimps. In a country with cold climate, it may be harmless since you need to use heater, but do consider summer when the temperature goes up.

My vote goes to Eheim 2215 if it's affordable to you. I think nobody beats Eheim in terms of quality of canister filter. I have 2 Eheim canister filters and they don't give me any problem at all. No annoying sound and no leakage. Furthermore, one of them is a second hand one. Canister filter will provide you more space inside a tank for plants.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Malaysian Trumpet Snails - they spread like wild fire. I know they're widely used to loosen up the substrate in NPT but I personally dislike them based on the way they multiply. They are actually unpopular in their own country of origin - Malaysia. I have a friend with a tank full of Malaysian Trumpet Snails at the substrate and they have become part of the substrate....just to indicate how many of them...imagine it yourself!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

colinsk said:


> freshwateraquariumplants.com helped me a lot. He is not a big fan of NPT but if you ask him for a low CO2 fast growing assortment he will give you lots of diversity. It was very important for me to have emergent plants that tied the soil to the air. I did not necessarily agree with my reasoning but he obliged. In the end I got lots of very heathy plants. Way more than I had room for. They all have done well. Some a little too well.


Whoops, sorry Colin, your post slipped by me somehow... Thanks for the referral, I will definitely check it out.

totziens, thanks for your input on both the powerhead and MTS. I'm thinking a powerhead wouldn't be an issue here, but I'll definitely keep the reproduction rate of MTS in mind... I'm glad you mentioned that, I always thought they reproduced slowly!

Okay -
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dwalstad said:


> I think that canister filters are expensive and unnecessary for NPTs.


-------


bartoli said:


> To just move water, I would consider a powerhead.





Forgotten Path said:


> Well, I moved away from the powerhead because I want to place aragonite in the filter





bartoli said:


> Right on top of the pump, next to the input (fitted with the attached strainer), I placed a bag of Purigen.





Forgotten Path said:


> check this out
> Just imagine the water flow reversed and foam, filter wool, etc. in the tube instead of CO2.





bartoli said:


> Ah, very interesting... if I can plug a syphon into the in-take of the Marineland pump, then I can put Purigen inside the syphon. The next time I use Purigen, I will give that a try. Thanks Forgotten Path.


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totziens said:


> My vote goes to Eheim 2215 if it's affordable to you.


------

So, depending on how we count Ms. Walstad's "vote" we have:

Powerhead w/"Internal Canister" - 2
AquaClear 50 - 1
Eheim Classic 2215 - 1

or

Powerhead w/"Internal Canister" - 1
AquaClear 50 - 0
Eheim Classic 2215 - 0

Either way, the powerhead is winning. Somehow, though, I'm still leaning towards the Eheim Classic 2215. Mainly because it would need to be cleaned less (I've heard every 6 months), and it would take the heater out of the tank. The Eheim does sound like its over doing it a tiny bit. In that case, I think if I decided on an Eheim I would just get the 2213.

Sorry for the long post!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Somehow, though, I'm still leaning towards the Eheim Classic 2215. Mainly because it would need to be cleaned less (I've heard every 6 months)


The main reason a filter needs to be cleaned is the things trapped by filter media - the more dirty is a tank, the more frequent is the cleaning. In contrast, a powerhead has no filter media. Thus, no media to clean.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

bartoli said:


> The main reason a filter needs to be cleaned is the things trapped by filter media - the more dirty is a tank, the more frequent is the cleaning. In contrast, a powerhead has no filter media. Thus, no media to clean.


And no filtration either...
IMO, you would also have to take the volume of the filter media into consideration when deciding when to clean. An Eheim can hold a lot more junk before clogging than can an AquaClear or the powerhead "canister". If you make the amount of waste constant, you will have to clean small filters more frequently...


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> And no filtration either...


Exactly! You yourself had said that you "just need something to move water". IOW, filtration is not needed.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

bartoli said:


> Exactly! You yourself had said that you "just need something to move water". IOW, filtration is not needed.


Haha, true, true.  You got me.
How about I reevaluate that statement: I just need something to move water and take out plant pieces (and large poop ).


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Just to play devil's advocate... What is in the filter when it is clogged? It is all material being broken down into plant fertilizeer by bacteria. Why not just let it settle into the gravel and let it decompose?


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> I just need something to move water and take out plant pieces (and large poop ).


Your filter choice was based on the large media size for reducing clean-up frequency. But I had read that the bacteria colony on filter media competes with plants for nutrient. You may want to look into that.


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## Erin C. (May 12, 2005)

I agree w/Colin about letting the detrius settle to the bottom instead of trying to filter it out you don't want anything competing with the plants not to mention they like straight ammonia over nitrates. 

I am using Tahitian Moon Sand in my 75g and love it, the only problem is that the detrius doesn't settle "in" like it does w/ gravel, but it still looks beautiful. I also use a powerhead in my tank over a canister or HOB mainly because there isn't any place to put an HOB on this tank it sits flush to the wall. I have HOB's in other tanks and don't notice any negative effects, all of my tanks grow plants so fast that I can barely keep up with the pruning. 

Have you decide what kind of fish you want to keep yet?

Good luck!!
Erin


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

bartoli said:


> Your filter choice was based on the large media size for reducing clean-up frequency. But I had read that the bacteria colony on filter media competes with plants for nutrient. You may want to look into that.


Yes, I just realized today that infrequent cleaning would let bacteria go free to rampage through ammonia that would otherwise be available to my plants. Thanks for that post, since I thought of that, it still hadn't clicked. So I haved ruled out a large filter volume, so the Eheim is out.



Erin C. said:


> I am using Tahitian Moon Sand in my 75g and love it, the only problem is that the detrius doesn't settle "in" like it does w/ gravel, but it still looks beautiful.


This is what I was worried about. I guess I'm still not a complete "convert" to NPT. I can't bear to think about my tank looking "dirty". If I can't get over it, I plan to DIY a small internal "canister" filter using the siphon tube idea, or use an AquaClear. Either way, if I do it, I plan on cleaning the media frequently (at least once a week) in hot then cold tap water to rid it of any bacteria...



Erin C. said:


> Have you decide what kind of fish you want to keep yet?


I really love rainbowfish, and I think that may be the direction I go... I think I would like to have a school of something too, maybe Von Rio Flame Tetras (would that work? or would the rainbows disrupt the school too much?). I like Corydoras cats too, and may have a few of those as well as Ottos (or one or the other, depending on how stocking levels work out). Hows it sound?


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I find shrimp and snails do all the housekeeping needed. If I stir up my gravel it will cloud the tank for a little bit but that is all fertilizer. It settles right back down and sifts into the gravel. I planned on running the filters in my tanks until I got shrimp. Then they were not only unnecessary but they tended to kill the shrimp.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Thanks for that post


You're welcome.



Forgotten Path said:


> I can't bear to think about my tank looking "dirty".


Once a tank has settled in and plants are growing healthy, I expect the tank bottom to be very clean. In some of my NPTs, the clean-up crew consists of only snails and the tank bottom is very clean - just gravel and snails. No visible poop. And I did not have to do any gravel surface cleaning.

May be it is worth holding off on using sand. Keep things simple by following the (Walstad) book of having only gravel on top of soil. The simpler is a setting, the easier it is to diagnose when things do not work out as planned. And that is the reason I stay away from mineralized soil.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

colinsk said:


> I find shrimp and snails do all the housekeeping needed.


Ah, I forgot about shrimp! What are some good shrimp to buy, as far as price, cleaning ability, and looks go?



bartoli said:


> I stay away from mineralized soil


I guess I will be too, I've decided I'm too lazy to go through the process. [smilie=t:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think that with mineralizing soil is just another word for composting, meaning the bacteria have been given enough time to decompose the "fast food" organic matter. What's left is "slow food" that doesn't cause as many problems.

The Mircle Grow company may have already done most of the mineralizing procedure in their "Organic Choice Potting Soil".

I have been pleased with results using Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil. Here's 55 gal (at 6 mos) set up with this soil.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> The Mircle Grow company may have already done most of the mineralizing procedure in their "Organic Choice Potting Soil".
> I have been pleased with results using Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil. Here's 55 gal (at 6 mos) set up with this soil.


Wow, it looks great. 
Are those "Red Iranian" rainbows? And do you recommend the internal Fluval filters? I was thinking about buying one, and I see you have one in your tank. (Also, did you have any ammonia problems with the Miracle Grow? My ammonia has been at 1.0 ppm since I set up my 5 gallon...)


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> I think that with mineralizing soil is just another word for composting, meaning the bacteria have been given enough time to decompose the "fast food" organic matter. What's left is "slow food" that doesn't cause as many problems.


Wonderful! I have been holding off on mineralized soil because I did not understand its process well enough. Well, I still do not understand the process  But knowing its net effect and the fact that there is a ready-made equivalence helps a lot. I think I will try it for the next tank. Thanks Diana.


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Forgotten Path said:


> Ah, I forgot about shrimp! What are some good shrimp to buy, as far as price, cleaning ability, and looks go?


They are not much to look at but I have Amano shrimp. I think I would choose an easier to breed shrimp if I was choosing again. They do clean relentlessly though. Here is a link to help you decide:

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/shrimp2.htm


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks, Colin.

bartoli, as far as I understand the process, you submerge soil, let it soak, and then spread it thin to dry. While it is drying, the bacteria go to work breaking down any organic material. When it is spread thin, the bacteria have maximum access to oxygen. Then you repeat the process until all the organic material is broken down, and the minerals readily available to plants (thus _mineralized_ soil, I guess). Its just an accelerated version of what happens in your tank anyways... Which is the main reason I decided I'm too lazy to do it - it doesn't really change what's in your soil, just what form its in.


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

thats right, and thats result in low algae problems, Less organics, more inorganic


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

Active thread here, thought I chime in. Appreciate Diana input on mineralized soil and alternative. I would never know of organic potting soil. This fast food/slow food sounds to be the essence of what mineralizing is. It's kind of misleading this term. But now I see that breaking down the fast food, what is left are mineral/nutrients without the large/decomposable organic matters.
As for Diana tank, I am not speaking for her and is a guess on my part, but she probably do not have any filter or pump in her 55 gallon tank. What she have is a UV filter with a built in pump.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Alex123 said:


> As for Diana tank, I am not speaking for her and is a guess on my part, but she probably do not have any filter or pump in her 55 gallon tank. What she have is a UV filter with a built in pump.


I'm pretty sure it's a Fluval.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Wow, it looks great.
> Are those "Red Iranian" rainbows? And do you recommend the internal Fluval filters? I was thinking about buying one, and I see you have one in your tank. (Also, did you have any ammonia problems with the Miracle Grow? My ammonia has been at 1.0 ppm since I set up my 5 gallon...)


No, the red Rainbowfish are _Glossolepsis incisus_. They're nice. The females are a dusty gold and not too shabby to look at either.

The internal filter is the UV Submariner filter, a UV sterilizing filter. I have one in all 3 of my tanks. That is to help prevent any recurrence of mycobacteriosis from some of the older fish that survived the outbreak. [I guess you haven't read about my episode with "Fish TB" back in 2004/2005.]

I don't see why the Fluval wouldn't work. However, I would recommend the UV Submariner for anyone with a large tank (>30 gal) and expensive fish. The Submariner isn't that expensive (about $90 for the 9 watt lamp size), works well as an internal filter, and helps control disease and green-water algae.

I didn't measure ammonia. (If I can't smell ammonia when I remove the top glass, I don't worry about it.) I never had any fish problems, even from baby fish. We are talking about the Miracle Grow Organic Choice potting soil? And your plants are growing really well? That's important, too, as they'll mop up the ammonia that this soil could release. I'm sure that any soil that you put in the tank is going to release some ammonia. It's a question of how much. On APC, we've had some discussions about how fresh the bag is (bags that have been lying around awhile and aired out will release less ammonia). Lots of variables.

Bottom Line: If you use soil in the tank, you should always anticipate potential problems the first few months. You have done that. Very good!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Haha, you got me Alex! That thing looks just like a Fluval... 

Thanks for the recommendation Ms. Walstad, I'll check them out. And my plants are growing great. I need to post an updated picture on the other thread. The ammonia question was mostly curiosity, I'm not really worried, especially with how good my plants grow.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

The Submariner looks good... Do you think I could get away with the 5 watt (rated for 40 gallons) or should I get a 9 watt? I have also seen 7 watt ones around, which would be ideal, but do they actually exist? They're not on JBJ's website. ??


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

some people not have big trouble with algae in the natural, I think that is because they use a lot of plants. I my natural aquariums I never have big problems with algae.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> bartoli, as far as I understand the process, you submerge soil, let it soak, and then spread it thin to dry.


Forgotten Path, I appreciate your summary. Thank you.

At one time, with the help of AaronT, I looked into the process of mineralizing soil. My concern at the time was:



bartoli said:


> what really stopped me from trying it was that I did not fully understand how the mineralization process would affect the soil's life span.


If you read the rest of the thread, you will see that my follow-up questions were not addressed. Thus, I left with the initial concern unresolved. I guess I'd taxed people's patience to the extreme. And they just gave up on me.

However, Ms. Walstad's explanation had addressed my concern. If I understand her explanation correctly, the process removes 'fast-food' but leaves the 'slow-food' behind. IOW, it does not reduce soil's life span.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Soil: Miracle Grow Organic Choice
Soil Cap: Black Gravel _or_ CaribSea All Naturals Tahitian Moon Sand
Heater: _most likely a_ Hydor Theo 150 watt
Powerhead/Filtration/UV: JBJ Submariner 7 watt UV-C Sterilizer
Lighting: Current USA Nova Extreme 2x39 watt [36"x5.5"] Freshwater
Plants: TBD
Inhabitants: Various Rainbowfish, Catfish, and Shrimp, _and possibly_ a school of something

Am I missing anything?


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## Erin C. (May 12, 2005)

Sounds perfect  

Best of luck!
Erin


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

bartoli said:


> Forgotten Path, I appreciate your summary. Thank you.
> 
> At one time, with the help of AaronT, I looked into the process of mineralizing soil. My concern at the time was:
> 
> ...


not to hi-jack the thread...but to answer this question of longevity, one of the club members in AaronT's local club has ahd soil tanks running continuously for nearly a decade....

back to the original thread....the plan looks great. Good luck


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

hooha said:


> not to hi-jack the thread...but to answer this question of longevity, one of the club members in AaronT's local club has ahd soil tanks running continuously for nearly a decade....
> 
> back to the original thread....the plan looks great. Good luck


yeah, the soil contains a lot of nutrients and it last a lot. If you get out of nutrients, About a decade hehehe, you can revitalize it, with hard dry clay balls and you can put inside the balls nutrients li e ferts and maybe you like to put some organic matter to continue the bacterial process in the deep. Also it gets rich of nutrients of fish wastes.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, if Big Als Online ever sends me an email so that I can return my Hydor ETH, I'm going to purchase a JBJ Submariner. I also purchased my light fixture form Drs. Foster & Smith, its on back order for now...


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

still nothing in the tank?

I made a new 3 galons El Natural setup today it only takes me 2-3 hours, nothing big yet, only Echinodorus plants. and some of them are in bad condition. It is easy to make it when you have the materials. Well, what you will make with the substrate? not mineralization at all?

ps: This word exist?-->mineralization or it is misspelled


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Actually, our rats are not getting along, so there is a rat in it at the moment...  

I was going to be lazy and not do the mineralization, but seeing as how everything is taking so long to come together, I may go ahead and do it. Do you have any idea if Miracle Grow Organic Choice would be a good base for mineralized soil? I still have quite a bit left from setting up my five gallon...

P.S.
I'm pretty sure mineralization is a word. If it isn't, it is now!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, I finally got my return authorization from Big Al's Online, so I can return my Hydor ETH and use my store credit to buy the JBJ Submariner. I have received my Current Lunar Light, and my Current Nova Extreme is on back order at Foster & Smith, but expected in tomorrow, so hopefully it will ship soon. I need to buy me a big 'ol tub and get on with it if I'm going to do mineralization, and hopefully by the time everything gets completed my plant order will be worked out and it'll be definitely warm enough to ship them.

Soil -- Mineralized Miracle Grow Organic Choice [got it, need to mineralize it]
Soil Cap -- CaribSea All Naturals Tahitian Moon Sand _or_ Black Gravel [need to decide and pick up at work]
Heater -- Hydor Theo 200 watt [need to pick up at work]
Powerhead/Filtration/UV -- JBJ Submariner 7 watt UV-C Sterilizer [need to order]
Lighting -- Current USA Nova Extreme 2x39 watt (36"x5.5") Freshwater [on back order, waiting on it to ship]
Plants -- TBD [need to work on plant choices]
Inhabitants -- Various Rainbowfish, Catfish, and Shrimp, and possibly a school of something [need to make up my mind]


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Soil -- Mineralized Miracle Grow Organic Choice [got it, need to mineralize it]


I thought Miracle Grow's Organic Choice Potting Soil is already mineralized. Thus there is no need for people using it to go through the mineralization process. Here is what Ms. Walstad wrote:



dwalstad said:


> The Mircle Grow company may have already done most of the mineralizing procedure in their "Organic Choice Potting Soil".


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Perhaps they have...
The MGOC seems to have very little in the way of large organic matter... Just the occasional large piece of bark/etc that has to be picked out. Maybe I shouldn't worry about the mineralization. But maybe I'll add some clay in, to raise the iron content.
My light fixture has been changed to "expected in 05/05/09", so another week to wait, I guess.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

Forgotten Path said:


> Perhaps they have...
> The MGOC seems to have very little in the way of large organic matter... Just the occasional large piece of bark/etc that has to be picked out. Maybe I shouldn't worry about the mineralization. But maybe I'll add some clay in, to raise the iron content.
> My light fixture has been changed to "expected in 05/05/09", so another week to wait, I guess.


Everybody here inspired me to dive right in! Heres my version of your tank plan filled two nights ago and planted last night. DIY (sort of) on the lights.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-grow-out.html

Post three is where it gets wet.
I think I'm gonna like it.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

wkndracer said:


> Everybody here inspired me to dive right in! Heres my version of your tank plan filled two nights ago and planted last night. DIY (sort of) on the lights.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-grow-out.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link.

In my book, I advise hobbyists to put the plants into wet soil and then carefully fill the tank with water. That way you won't get so much turbidity. Fluorite has been known to cause initial turbidity for some hobbyists. The Organic Choice doesn't have this problem.

I would change the water and add fish. Also, be prepared to change water every couple weeks for first 2-3 months until soil stabilizes. Finally, make sure that there's adequate water circulation for oxygenating water and keeping fish safe (decomposition in new soils will suck oxygen out of the water).

It looks like a good start. You should be seeing signs of good plant growth within days.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks to all posting here, without it to read I would not have tried this method. I'm not intending to hijack the OP's thread (and won't) but felt I needed to post once more and reply to Ms Walstad. 
I've got the tank set now I think for the starting run in with ample flow for circulation and plants. My rabbit like angel fish caused me to jump start my initial plans for start up so it has two fish in it and I'll monitor water parameters closely. Breeding in my other tanks has just been ridiculous for several months so I'm moving fish.

Best to all and I'll visit often. (I've only made it back to page 49 so far LOL)


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, Drs. Foster & Smith pushed back the "expected in" date on my light fixture again on the fifth, and that was the last straw. I got lucky and apparently Marine Depot now carries that fixture again, and had it in stock. I ordered it there for only about $10 more and canceled Foster & Smith. It should ship today or tomorrow. My Hydor ETH is in the mail on its way back to Big Al's, so when I get my store credit there I will buy the JBJ Submariner. That should be all the major stuff. I still need timers, etc, but I can grab that about anywhere. Once I start getting stuff in, I will contact freshwateraquariumplants.com and set up a plant order.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, I have my light fixture now, and man is it glorious in its brightness! 

Now I'm waiting on Big Al's to refund my ETH so I can get the JBJ Submariner from them...

All this waiting is killing me.


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## Erin C. (May 12, 2005)

If it helps, I just ordered one for myself and they are on back order, so no hurries there either


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Ha, okay. The ETH is finally refunded. Thanks for the tip off, I was considering just getting a Fluval 4 Plus filter, and that may have just tipped me over to getting it. I'm just tired of waiting (haha, I still have to order plants).


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## Valley (Feb 28, 2007)

OK.... I'm not sure where to post this ATM so I'm going to post it here since it seems semi relevant. Be careful buying the miracle grow organic choice. I very nearly screwed up big time. I bought a bag, brought it home, and noticed that in smaller letters under the "Miracle Grow Organic Choice" it said *garden soil*. Being a gardener I knew enough that this was WRONG. So I went back and bought the *potting soil*. The garden soil has much more chunky pieces of wood etc in it, a stronger composting smell, and over all was obviously the wrong choice for an aquarium. (I've used the potting soil in a 55g that I'll be doing a thread on once it's fully stable. I'm so pleased. Thank you Diana!!)

The Miracle Grow Organic Choice *POTTING SOIL* is good. The garden soil would probably work out just fine.... But the first few months would be one heck of a ride.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

That is very true...

I never tried the Garden Soil because every place I found that had the MGOC line only had it in HUGE 50 lb. bags (way to much for a five gallon!). But I figured it wouldn't be the best.

From what I've seen the packaging is pretty different as well.

You WANT:
The *Potting Soil* with a *brown bag* and a *picture of some greenery growing from a pot* on it.

You DON'T want:
The *Garden Soil* with a *green bag* and a *picture of tomatoes* on it.

See the attachments.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Brent, thanks for pictures and clarifying the issue for everyone. [A picture is always worth a 1,000 words!]

Since the bags are often sold together, it can be confusing.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Yup, no problem...

I currently have:

*Filter: Fluval 4 Plus
*Heater: 200 watt Hydor Theo
*Lighting: Current USA 36" 2 x 39 watt Nova Extreme Freshwater [Day - 12 hrs]; Current USA Moon White Lunar Light [Night - 12 hrs]
*Timer/Power-strip: Coralife Aqualight Digital Power Center

I'm looking for:

*Aquascaping material: some nice river stones, some wicked-cool drift wood, etc.

Once that is complete:

*Plants: Gotta pick these...
*Fish: Various Rainbowfish, Long Finned Rosy Barbs (I've fallen in love with them), and scavengers (shrimp, cats, etc, need to make up my mind)
*Lots 'o water


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I now have some nice driftwood!
Nice? Who am I kidding? Its awesome, I've been trying to find a piece like this...
It's soaking now...

Now I need to go out and find some river stones...


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## Mr. Larry (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi Everyone. Just set up my first NPT tank. A 3 gallon. I used Hyponex potting soil, about 1 inch of soil and about 1 inch of gravel. I also put in some sea shells(not crushed). There were some snails that came with the plants and I also added 3 small guppies. The tank is very clear at this time and all animals look good. 
I guess I will hold my breath and see what happens. Oh, I have the tank near a window and also some flourescent light.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Mr. Larry said:


> Just set up my first NPT tank.QUOTE]
> 
> What you've described sounds good. Now, its all up to the plants! If you have enough of them and they start growing well the first 2 weeks, your problems will be minimized.
> 
> Note that the first 8 weeks, the time of maximum soil instability, is the hardest. Watch your tank and fish for problems during this time. Since its a small tank and easy to do water changes, I would do weekly water changes for the first 8 weeks. After 8 weeks, assuming the plants are growing well, you can start to coast.


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## Mr. Larry (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks for your encouragement. I have not been this excited about an aquarium since I was 16 years old( I suppose I should get a life!). 

Larry


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Everyone please check this out if you have time:

T5 HO Light Positioning

Maybe you could provide me with some advice...

Oh yes, going on anniversary vacation with the wife to the Blue Ridge Parkway. Maybe I'll commit a federal offense and bring back some nice river stones if I find any...


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## Mr. Larry (Jun 8, 2009)

My 3 gal NPT tank has been set up about 2.5 weeks. Fish are looking great and the snail population is exploding. Most importantly, the plants are growing like crazy. I have done two water changes and I am considering not doing the water changes for awhile as the water looks great and the plants are fine. Also, not apparent algae problems either. Sounds too good to be true!

Larry


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, figured I would let everyone know I'm around and this project isn't dead...

No internet at home right now.

I brought home some nice stones from our camping trip this summer and worked out how I'm going to position everything.
I have also worked out the light positioning.
I am slowly acquiring plants. So far hornwort, red ludwigia, java fern, and water wisteria. They are kinda just sitting in tank, not planted. Well, the ludwigia is planted in some tupperware.
No fish yet, but as soon as I finish moving my goldfish into their new tank, I will have a free tank to quarantine with. So I will start buying fish and throwing them in there.

Coming along slowly, but I'll make it happen.


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## WetBlueThumb (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok so i messed up and used the Garden soil and not the potting soil. Should have delayed and followed instinct that there was too much mulch material. The situation is now it is in the aquarium and covered and planted.

BTW I did extensive soaking and drying before and 2weeks of water changes.
What to do?
Prefer not to remove it. Alternate suggestions are best.


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