# Help with setup (CO2, plants, etc)



## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

I just started my planted tank not too long ago. I've got a 20 gallon tall with about half the density of plants I am aiming for. My dwarf hairgrass and a couple other plants have a bit of fuzzy algae on them. The plants I have had for over a week have been doing really well, and I just doubled my plant load yesterday to what you see in the pic.










I am using the Nutrafin CO2 system. I have a 65w CF setup giving me 3wpg. My PH is 8, KH is 300 ppm and GH is 75 ppm (using 5-in-1 Quick Dip test strips).

I have six fish in the aquarium right now. Two are always hiding in driftwood and two are surface dwellers. The other two are going up to the surface often for O2 I assume. (Those two just started doing this the other day, but the other fish don't seem to be out of breath. A couple days ago, the Nutrafin system started pumping out more CO2 than usual and that is all that I could think of that changed at around the same time that the fish started going up for air. I'm hoping the additional plants (and more to come) will help if it is a lack of O2. I tried using an air stone last night but today they are still surfacing.

I also have only been using Seachem Flourish but am thinking I should start dosing some macros too.

In another thread, someone mentioned I should get more CO2 into my tank, and I wanted to get some more opinions on that as well as my fish surfacing for air and my algae. Also any recommendations for dosing.

I am relatively new to all this and have learned a lot, but I still have a lot more to learn. I really appreciate the help I have gotten here so far and would really like to hear your opinions. If anyone needs any more info that I may have left out, let me know.


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

If I am to go with a more advanced CO2 setup, what do you all think of this:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9935&N=2004+113779

Where would I get the CO2 tank btw?


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## MikeCZE (Feb 11, 2006)

You've got a good start for a planted tank. From your water parameters I noticed something you might want to consider. You show your Ph as 8. This is a little higher than ideal for the plants you have. Generally, most aquarium plants do well in Ph's around or under 7. With CO2 added to the aquarium, that should be achievable given time and effective absorbtion. To help keep the CO2 in the water you are going to want to limit the amount of surface agitation. The hang on back filter you are using is a simple place to start with that. If you have a BioWheel on it try removing it. The purpose of the wheel is to provide surface area for bacteria to live that break down fish wastes and other contaminents. They also increase O2 concentrations in the water. Those are good traits for fish only tanks, but your plants serve those funtions in planted tanks. The biowheel also increases surface agitation that lets CO2 escape from the water into the air.

CO2 injection with a compressed gas tank is a more efficient way to introduce CO2 but it is much more expensive in initial cost. Tanks aren't too expensive, especially if you find one on Ebay, but as with any auction buyer beware. Tanks are also available at welding shops, restaurant supply or beverage supply shops. 

Hope that helps some. There are a lot of opinions out here more expereinced than mine, but I started out with the same kind of setup as you have and those suggestions worked for me.


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

I just realized something, couple days ago when I first dosed Excel, I read it wrong and did two cap-fulls for 20 gallons... not the ~1/3 cap-full... which was basically a 5x overdose. Does this sound like the culprit?


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

MikeCZE said:


> You've got a good start for a planted tank. From your water parameters I noticed something you might want to consider. You show your Ph as 8. This is a little higher than ideal for the plants you have. Generally, most aquarium plants do well in Ph's around or under 7. With CO2 added to the aquarium, that should be achievable given time and effective absorbtion. To help keep the CO2 in the water you are going to want to limit the amount of surface agitation. The hang on back filter you are using is a simple place to start with that. If you have a BioWheel on it try removing it. The purpose of the wheel is to provide surface area for bacteria to live that break down fish wastes and other contaminents. They also increase O2 concentrations in the water. Those are good traits for fish only tanks, but your plants serve those funtions in planted tanks. The biowheel also increases surface agitation that lets CO2 escape from the water into the air.
> 
> CO2 injection with a compressed gas tank is a more efficient way to introduce CO2 but it is much more expensive in initial cost. Tanks aren't too expensive, especially if you find one on Ebay, but as with any auction buyer beware. Tanks are also available at welding shops, restaurant supply or beverage supply shops.
> 
> Hope that helps some. There are a lot of opinions out here more expereinced than mine, but I started out with the same kind of setup as you have and those suggestions worked for me.


No biowheel. I have the Top Fin 20 (Petsmart's version of the Whisper series I believe). I keep the water level up so there is no splashing back into the tank.

If I go the pressurized CO2 route, I doubt I am going to go for the several hundred dollar setup with a PH monitor and whatnot... just too much money. With my high PH, if I did a pressurized setup that brought the PH down to 7 during the day, would the PH fluctuate too much when the system shuts off at night?


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

i myself go with pressurized CO2, but do not shut it off at night, but my CO2 is relatively steady around 6.4 - 6.5. i do have a fairly heavily planted tank (20g) and have a powerhead running all day. so i'm hoping that is helping keep things fairly steady.

though you're forgoing the ph monitor setup, i would still look at investing into a portable pocket meter. if you live in the US, it should be cheaper than what i paid up here. in the end, they're a lot more accurate than the test kits, and a good investment for this hobby.

besides... this hobby dictates you spend money


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

You need to get your ph down to a reasonable level. Anything bellow 7 is good. The best way I would go about doing it is with co2. Your fish going up to the top occasionally doesn't necessary mean you have too much co2. If your co2 was too high they would be at the surface gasping all the time. You can use DIY co2 setup at a cheap price but you will most likely be changing your bottles each week if you want to keep your co2 high enough. The most important part of a planted tank is light, co2 then nutrients. If one of those are lacking you will get algae. Your tank is new so I would not add any no3 or po4 for now. Just make sure your micros are good and keep up on the 50% water change each week. Remove as much algae as you possible can physically each day. Also add as many plants as you possible can afford.

Also you don't really need a PH prode. A simple test kit will do for now. Your over dose of exel will do no harm. It shoudl kill off some algae. I would dose a little more then they say though.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

In my opinion it pays to dose all fertilizers from the day you set up the tank. You do want the plants to begin growing, and growing plants need fertilizer. The worst thing to do is to have one of the fertilizer components limit the growth rate of the plants. Doing that is an open invitation for algae to start up. It does no harm to have twice the recommended levels of any of the ferts, and if you change half of the water every week, you are getting rid of the excess and keeping it from building up indefinitely. I also second the suggestions that you bite the bullet and get pressurized CO2. You don't need a ph controller, you do the controlling by setting the regulator pressure and needle valve setting so as to get the amount of CO2 you want, then let the solenoid shut it down at night when the lights go off. And the amount you want is the maximum you can use that doesn't cause the fish to be distressed.


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

Oye... I think I may bite the bullet. Does the kit I linked to look like a good solution? I'm not sure how varied different setups would be except for going more advanced (and expensive). I'll have to look around and see if I can get a CO2 tank too. How much do those usually cost and how long do they last (if there is a standard tank size)?

My birthday is Monday - the big... 22... yes... so maybe I can convince somebody to 'surprise' me and give me money so I can buy it without hurting my already pained wallet. College life ain't cheap (and neither is this hobby)!

Thanks everyone for their input. If anyone else has an opinion, I'd still love to hear it.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Hi, Brain... Nice start on your tank.

The C02 combo in your link has all you need except for the cylinder, which will cost between $50-80 depending on where you buy it from. Here is a link on affordable pressurized C02 to give you some other ideas... http://sammyxp.tripod.com/html/id23.html


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## bergzy (Feb 18, 2006)

i am a total total newbie to fw planted aquariums but i really know aquatic equipment, esp reef aquarium equipment really well.

co2 is a large part of reef aquaria...

reef equipment is horrifically expensive but here is the best of the best.

http://www.reeffanatic.com/products/co2-regulator-and-supplies/co2-regulator.asp

http://www.reeffanatic.com/products/ph-controllers-and-ph-monitors/ph-controllers.asp

though all my experience is in reef aquaria, i have found having a constant bubble rate for the co2 gas to be difficult...even with an excellent needle valve. unless you use this valve:

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CO3153

in addition, co2 is consumed at different rates whether in reef or fw plants.

this is why i use a pH controller. though expensive, it is well worth the pennies for precise co2 control.

please dont take this comment as trying to be a newbie know it all...it's just that i have a lot of equipment (and i mean A LOT) for my 180g reef and i hope that my experience is a little helpful.


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

All of my plants are pearling nicely right now... I guess that's a good sign so far!


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

Ok, well I did it... I ordered the pressurized CO2 system. Tomorrow I'll call around and find a CO2 cylinder.

My plants will be happy, but my wallet took the hit and I cried a little inside.

It would have been nice if I knew about this before spending money on that Nutrafin CO2 system. Looking back, DIY would have been a better idea, but we all make mistakes... right?

As for my pearling plants... I think it was just the water change


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

Oye... well I just called every single welding supply store and the only homebrew supply store in town and the cheapest I can get a 5 lb CO2 cylinder for is $90!

If there is anyone around here that happens to be in the San Antonio, TX area and knows where I can get a better deal of a CO2 cylinder, let me know!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You might want to check on ebay for someone near enough to you for shipping cost to be reasonable. I got mine that way at a good price - $50 plus about $10 shipping for a new aluminum 5 pound cylinder.


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## Jondave Lim (Jul 5, 2005)

Hi Brian,
Nice tank for a start. I started off this hobby like you, using the nutrafin DIY CO2 kit. I even did some trial and error on the amount of sugar and baking yeast combination. It does work but to control the amount of CO2 in the water is almost impossible. So I took the small "pain" to move over to pressurised CO2 supplement. And never turn back. I guess as a beginner, we all want to try simpler and cheaper method before taking the plunge. Our aim is to gain confidence that we can get the plants going before moving on deeper in the hobby. And end up putting the diy kit aside. ( I give it to a friend to start thr hobby)

I agree with JaySilverMan that the easiest way would be pressurisied CO2 injection with fine adjustment using a good needle valve. Bring it down to 7.0, 6.8. Then control your KH to btw 4 to 5 degree ( 1 DEGREE = 17.9 ppm) that will be about 15 to 20 ppm of CO2 in the water which is about right.The link below on chuck's planted tank has a good table showing the measurement of CO2 levels:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

I just did some tests with different water. I tested water from the tap outside (not through the water softener), cold tap water and hot tap water.

All my water has a PH of 8 and a KH of 300 ppm. The outside water has a GH of 300, the inside cold has a GH of 0 and the inside hot has a GH of 25. I don't know if the GH really matters though.

The leaves of my plants are curling a little (all leaves, not just new ones) and I read that it could be because of a lack of Ca, but that it could also be because of KH limiting the uptake of nutrients. Is this something that will go away when there is more CO2 and macro nutrients or do I need to adjust my KH? What is the best way of adjusting KH?


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

Welp, I got all my CO2 stuff in today. 5 lb cylinder and Azoo regulator. Right now I am doing about 1 bubble every seven seconds. I'm not sure how much CO2 to put in, so I thought this would be a good start and then I could increase or decrease depending on how my plants and fish react.


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## Jondave Lim (Jul 5, 2005)

Hi Brian,

I think 1 bubble every 7 second is a bit too little. Try 1 to 2 bubble per second.
I also have 20 gallon tank which i put in 3 bubbles per second, it is quite heavily plant though. I guess thru some trial and measurement before you can determine how much is suitable for your tank. Good luck.


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## BrianK (Feb 11, 2006)

Yeah, I thought so too after a bit. Right now I have it at just under a bubble per second and have a decent amount of plants that are pearling a tiny bit. But the tank will hopefully be heavily planted sometime this week when my new plant shipment comes in. My fish are doing fine and I have high KH so a PH swing shouldn't be an issue, but I'm just playing it safe and will increase the bubble count a little every week.

Before I hooked up the pressurized CO2 I did a 90% water change, cleaned the glass, washed off all the plants and sucked up as much mulm and algae as I could and so far the little algae I had isn't coming back. I've got a tiny bit in my dwarf hairgrass but it isn't continuing to grow. I also started dosing Seachem ferts, but after hearing what other people do here, I ordered some dry ferts from Greg Watson.

I am basing my dosing schedule off of Tom's example:



> *A Typical Tank*
> A typical routine for a high light tank with low fish load:
> Volume 80 liters (20 gal high standard tank)
> 5.5 watts/ gal. - two 55watt 5000K/8800K lamps
> ...


I ordered the Poor Man's GH Booster, KNO3, KH2PO4 and CSM+B and this is my planned dosing schedule (all dry measurements):

*Saturday*
50% water change
1/8 tsp GH Booster
1/4 tsp KNO3
1/16 tsp KH2PO4

*Sunday & Wednesday*
1/6 tsp CSM+B

*Monday & Thursday*
1/4 tsp KNO3
1/16 tsp KH2PO4

Tom's recommendation for dosing every day was based on a 5.5 wpg tank, but my tank is 3 wpg so I was thinking this would be better. Does this look alright as a starting point?


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