# What causes holes in my plants leaves in Walstad tank?



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

My fish tank is 3 months old and every thing growing like crazy, except holes.
I'm using 1 inch of Hyponex byScotts potting soil and 1 inch of gravel. The parameters of water looks okay. I have tetra cardinal fish and shrimps with baby's. Please see the pictures.























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

You'll have to dose nutrients, potassium specifically.


----------



## JLingen (May 10, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

I find this small guide helpful. It suggests holes are a manganese deficiency.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

From this picture looks like I need add Magnesium not potassium? This very confusing

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

its potassium.


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



JLingen said:


> I find this small guide helpful. It suggests holes are a manganese deficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know how accurate is this picture describing nutrient deficiencies... I have had a couple of Walstad tanks over the years and I definitely would not 100% thrust this image.

To be honest, I don't know what is causing the wholes on the leaves with this tank. If it were of mine, I'd guess a Potassium (macro) deficiency. However, the original posts suggests that the tank is only 3 months old. I'd guess that a reasonable soil should not show such deficiency symptoms so early...

Maybe I would wait a bit to see how it progresses and concentrate on new growth.

(When I added KNO3 to my Walstad tank as an experiment, it really just triggered algae a bit. Adding fresh soil worked for me, but I would really wonder if such a new tank would need it.)

Just to clarify, is this tank an NPT?

Your measurements show 15 mg/l CO2 which is probably not totally impossible for a "new" NPT, but more like is suggests CO2 addition. Or maybe the measurement is just not accurate. Also it appears to be constant, which is very unlikely.


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

Thank you 
If it's potassium what should I use KCL or KNO3 or K2SO4? Which it's save for shrimps?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

NPT???

I follow Walstad method.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

I don't use CO2 too risky and expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

@wojtek76
What sensor and software are you using to measure your water parameter?

KCL or KNO3 is fine. It looks like you might have a Nitrogen deficiency as well. Whatever you have on hand.

Nutrient deficiencies are inevitable in a NPT/Walstad method. The plants will use up the nutrients, then die to release back the nutrients.


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



mistergreen said:


> @wojtek76
> 
> What sensor and software are you using to measure your water parameter?
> 
> ...












I'm using strips.
This company it's well known in Europe.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*

Can I use Oyster grit instead add chemicals?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



mistergreen said:


> @wojtek76
> What sensor and software are you using to measure your water parameter?
> 
> KCL or KNO3 is fine. It looks like you might have a Nitrogen deficiency as well. Whatever you have on hand.
> ...


According to the original post, this tank is only 3 months old. Is it really possible to have a soil that does not have enough nutrients for such a short period of time?? Not even accounting for fish food as an other source of plant nutrients....

It maybe just me, but every time I experimented with KNO3 I got a bit of algae. Some folks use it for example in high tech CO2 dosed tanks, but for me it really does not work in my walstad low tech tanks. (not to mention it is not really an NPT any more if you need to dose liquid ferts frequently...)


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



zolteeC said:


> According to the original post, this tank is only 3 months old. Is it really possible to have a soil that does not have enough nutrients for such a short period of time?? Not even accounting for fish food as an other source of plant nutrients....
> 
> It maybe just me, but every time I experimented with KNO3 I got a bit of algae. Some folks use it for example in high tech CO2 dosed tanks, but for me it really does not work in my walstad low tech tanks. (not to mention it is not really an NPT any more if you need to dose liquid ferts frequently...)


I agree with you 100%.
How My new fish tank based on Walstad method after 3-4 has deficit of nutrients especially when I have hard tap water?
Another things I don't want add fertilizer frequently and be worry all the time about my fish and shrimps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Couldn't the reason be lack of light on the lower parts of stems? Mine Bacopa and Hygrophila are very often showing similar "disintegration" of leaves, especially those which are close to the substrate (or when in shadow). If they receive strong light, they usually keep all the leaves and often change color to brown/pink/red.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

no burr posted a thing here, it was phosphate I believe (or maybe potassium) that made leaves fall off of stems. People tend to think this is light issue.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



wojtek76 said:


> Can I use Oyster grit instead add chemicals?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're only going to add calcium which is good but not potassium.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



zolteeC said:


> According to the original post, this tank is only 3 months old. Is it really possible to have a soil that does not have enough nutrients for such a short period of time??


Every tank is different. We don't know the full situation. We can only see the symptoms.


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



mistergreen said:


> You're only going to add calcium which is good but not potassium.


What about if I add dolomite lime?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



wojtek76 said:


> What about if I add dolomite lime?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's calcium and magnesium. You should have added these in the soil to begin with.
If you want to keep things natural, try feeding your fish foods natural in potassium, spinach, seaweed, bananas. I think the highest potassium content is Jack fruit or Durian.


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

mistergreen said:


> Every tank is different. We don't know the full situation. We can only see the symptoms.


Me either I don't know &#129335;*♂ was is going on?
This reason why I ask people with more experience. I'm trying understand and find best solution. Maybe I should send water from fish tank to the lab? It's expensive120$ at www.mytapscore.com, but at least I can obtain more information about my problem and find solutions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Don't bother, just enjoy the tank.

btw. in 10g of seaweed, there's 9mg of potassium.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



wojtek76 said:


> What about if I add dolomite lime?


I think that's worth trying. Cannot hurt.

Could also try adding potassium. KCl is sold as "salt substitute" in grocery stores.

Make sure that you are not cleaning the tank too much (i.e., removing nutrients with water changes, etc). Perhaps you are also not feeding your fish well enough to replenish nutrients removed with plant growth.


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



dwalstad said:


> I think that's worth trying. Cannot hurt.
> 
> Could also try adding potassium. KCl is sold as "salt substitute" in grocery stores.
> 
> Make sure that you are not cleaning the tank too much (i.e., removing nutrients with water changes, etc). Perhaps you are also not feeding your fish well enough to replenish nutrients removed with plant growth.


I will try add salt substitute (in your book your recommended ratio 3/8 tsp KCl per 10 gallons fish tank) to water that I used topping up. Usually I add 1 gallons of water per week. Also I will add Seachem prime to eliminate chlorine. My fish tank it's 100% based on your book, so I don't clean my fish tank and I feed my fish well. Also I have overstock more than 25 fish to keep high level of CO2. 
Thank you very much for your advice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLingen (May 10, 2018)

*Re: What causes holes in my plants leaves?*



JLingen said:


>


Can anyone share a better resource if this one is not completely accurate?


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

wojtek76 said:


> My fish tank is 3 months old and every thing growing like crazy, except holes.
> I'm using 1 inch of Hyponex byScotts potting soil and 1 inch of gravel. The parameters of water looks okay. I have tetra cardinal fish and shrimps with baby's. Please see the pictures.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

You can see the other plants in the background also have pinholes.
This is for sure a potassium deficiency I must say diana.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I agree. Could be a potassium deficiency.

Let's see if our hobbyist can cure the "hole problem" by adding KCl.


----------



## wojtek76 (May 15, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> I agree. Could be a potassium deficiency.
> 
> Let's see if our hobbyist can cure the "hole problem" by adding KCl.


Can I put this in my Hob filter instead to the soil?

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Yes. Good choice. In the filter with moving water, these pellets should release Ca and Mg rapidly. I would keep an eye on the pH and not let it get too far above 8, as measured early in morning. If you also add the KCl, you should be able to fix the nutrient deficiencies so typical of ultra-softwater. 

In my book (Q&A on page 86-87), I describe a similar recipe. 

Let us know how this does.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

@dwalstad
Don't plants generally do better in pH lower than 7?


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

my ph in AR was 8 something now in GA its 6.8, not to much of a difference in growth yet.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> @dwalstad
> Don't plants generally do better in pH lower than 7?


I don't think pH is a significant parameter for aquatic plants. GH, and perhaps KH, are significant, and, of course, CO2 is a significant parameter. If we get better results with low pH, that is most likely a result of having more CO2 in the water.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> I don't think pH is a significant parameter for aquatic plants. GH, and perhaps KH, are significant, and, of course, CO2 is a significant parameter. If we get better results with low pH, that is most likely a result of having more CO2 in the water.


In terrestrial plants, the lower pH makes iron more available for plants. I assume the same for aquatics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_deficiency_(plant_disorder)


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> In terrestrial plants, the lower pH makes iron more available for plants. I assume the same for aquatics.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_deficiency_(plant_disorder)


Good point!


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> @dwalstad
> Don't plants generally do better in pH lower than 7?


Yes, because CO2 is more available (my book, p. 92). At higher pHs, the CO2 increasingly changes to bicarbonate and is less available to many aquatic plants. Some aquatic plants, generally the better growers, can use bicarbonates as a carbon source, but many stem plants and others need free CO2.

Your input prompted me to reconsider my advice.  In my book's recipe for increasing water hardness (p. 87), I *purposely* specified CaCl2 because it does not change the pH. In contrast, dolomite lime, sea shells, oyster grit, etc, can increase the pH.

For Wojtek's leaf problem, the "proof is in the pudding." Benefits from the dolomite lime input of calcium and magnesium may override a *possibly* higher pH and less CO2. Or his plants may be able to use bicarbonates. Who knows?

As to iron, his plants should be able to get it from the substrate. (Water pH would not have much impact on the substrate pH and iron release to roots.)


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

hoppycalif said:


> I don't think pH is a significant parameter for aquatic plants. GH, and perhaps KH, are significant, and, of course, CO2 is a significant parameter. If we get better results with low pH, that is most likely a result of having more CO2 in the water.


All nutrient have an ideal pH for the uptake not because of the CO2-content.

https://planetpermaculture.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/soil_ph_nutrient_availability.jpg?w=840


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

wojtek76 said:


> My fish tank is 3 months old and every thing growing like crazy, except holes.
> I'm using 1 inch of Hyponex byScotts potting soil and 1 inch of gravel. The parameters of water looks okay. I have tetra cardinal fish and shrimps with baby's. Please see the pictures.
> 
> 
> ...


I see potassium AND phosphorus deficiency. Green spot algae and the holes become bigger and bigger suggest this. This soil seems to be very weak in macroelements.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Pendulum said:


> All nutrient have an ideal pH for the uptake not because of the CO2-content.
> 
> https://planetpermaculture.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/soil_ph_nutrient_availability.jpg?w=840


That chart is very interesting!  For example, it strongly suggests that our plants get their calcium and magnesium almost entirely from the water (through the leaves, not the roots). So, keeping the GH up and making sure it includes magnesium, is important.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I think the low pH helps with chelation of the micronutrients which the plants take in. If you add chelated micros, high pH isn't an issue.

In a dirt tank, it's not an issue since the dirt lowers the pH in the substrate. Root plants don't have a problem but I can see epiphytes like anubias, ferns, could have issues in a high pH water column.


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> I think the low pH helps with chelation of the micronutrients which the plants take in. If you add chelated micros, high pH isn't an issue.
> 
> In a dirt tank, it's not an issue since the dirt lowers the pH in the substrate. Root plants don't have a problem but I can see epiphytes like anubias, ferns, could have issues in a high pH water column.


If the high pH comes with sodium(for example from NaHCO3), it can be toxic to plants even if you have good soil, because the plant will uptake it, because the sodium is very similar to potassium.

AND the HCO3- ion, what is very common in the high pH water, can make ion antagonisms, too, and because you haven't enough acid in the soil to keep the pH low, if you have too alkaline water, the water is moving in the soil, too but in lower intensity so the pH will raising in the soil.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your tank looks nice. I wouldn't be bothered by a few holes in the leaves, which could be just localized snail snacking.

As to sodium, I would never describe it as a "toxin." Sodium is found in virtually all natural waters. [Median is 6 ppm (Bowen, HJM. 1979).] Dave Huebert, famed aquatic botanist, describes his growth media for _Potamogeton pectinatus_ as containing 25 ppm Na and 15 ppm K.* He writes that Na can substitute for K to maintain the plant's osmotic balance. This is not a bad thing.

Yes, aquatic plants are inhibited by salt, but at very high concentrations, about 0.1% or 1 ppt NaCl. That translates into 400 ppm of sodium, which is 16 times what Huebert used and 67 times what is found in natural waters.

Folks, please keep things in perspective. Na, Cl, bicarbonates are part of the natural world and only inhibit aquatic plants at high concentrations.

*Huebert DB and Gorham PR. 1983. Biphasic mineral nutrition of the submersed aquatic macrophyte Potamogeton pectinatus L. Aq. Bot. 16: 269- 284.


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

dwalstad said:


> Your tank looks nice. I wouldn't be bothered by a few holes in the leaves, which could be just localized snail snacking.
> 
> As to sodium, I would never describe it as a "toxin." Sodium is found in virtually all natural waters. [Median is 6 ppm (Bowen, HJM. 1979).] Dave Huebert, famed aquatic botanist, describes his growth media for _Potamogeton pectinatus_ as containing 25 ppm Na and 15 ppm K.* He writes that Na can substitute for K to maintain the plant's osmotic balance. This is not a bad thing.
> 
> ...


sadly the aquarium stores dont sell Na tests. In hungary, the alkaline water is a common problem. We can measure this problem by KH and GH tests. For example, if we measure 20 KH and 10 GH, most of the aquatic plants cant grow healthy, it is the experience from years(with co2, the situation is a bit better). I dont know, is it caused by the sodium or the high HCO3- content, but the phenomenom is exist.

and, if you add MgSO4 and CaCl to a water where you measure 20 KH 10GH (nk) , the aquatic plants seems to grow better. In my eyes it can be only because of the "positive antagonism" between Ca+Mg and Na ions.

I am going to make experiments soon wether the Na or the HCO3 ions cause the bigger symptoms in the alkaline water.


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

I tell you another experience.

I helped a hobbist and he used sera salt to remineralize his RO water. He didnt use tapwater. The KH was 5 nk, and the Gh was 12-14 nk. The plants stopped growing almost totally. I was thinking about it, and I remembered the sera salt use NaHCO3 to up the KH value. Then we stopped the sera salt, and instead it we used a little tapwater and MgSO4 + CaCl to make GH, the plants suddleny started to grow quite fast after a few 30% water changes. We didnt change anything else.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Pendulum said:


> I tell you another experience.
> 
> I helped a hobbist and he used sera salt .....


What is sera salt? Is that a typo, and you meant sea salt?


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

hoppycalif said:


> What is sera salt? Is that a typo, and you meant sea salt?


Sera 'mineral salt' is the exact name of the product, not sea salt.


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Just a note - Sera is German company producing a lot of accessories for aquariums, widely available and well known in Europe. I suppose that it's not the case in the US.


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

mysiak said:


> Just a note - Sera is German company producing a lot of accessories for aquariums, widely available and well known in Europe. I suppose that it's not the case in the US.


I didnt want to concentrate on the product, rather the phenomenon it causes.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Pendulum said:


> I didnt want to concentrate on the product, rather the phenomenon it causes.


Have you thought about if you added too much of the mineral salt? That might have blocked nutrient uptake. I don't think it has too much to do with the very tiny amount of Na (sodium) you added.

I add way more sodium chloride in my guppy tank and the plants are fine.


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> Have you thought about if you added too much of the mineral salt? That might have blocked nutrient uptake. I don't think it has too much to do with the very tiny amount of Na (sodium) you added.
> 
> I add way more sodium chloride in my guppy tank and the plants are fine.


I didn't add too much salt.

That's a question yet, sodium or the excess HCO3- ion makes the symptoms, or together.

I will make experiment soon with 20-40-80-200 ppm Na ion content with NaCl and I will use 5-10 aquatic plant species. I want to bring to light why alkaline water is bad.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Pendulum said:


> I tell you another experience.
> 
> I helped a hobbist and he used sera salt to remineralize his RO water. He didnt use tapwater. The KH was 5 nk, and the Gh was 12-14 nk. The plants stopped growing almost totally. I was thinking about it, and I remembered the sera salt use NaHCO3 to up the KH value. Then we stopped the sera salt, and instead it we used a little tapwater and MgSO4 + CaCl to make GH, the plants suddleny started to grow quite fast after a few 30% water changes. We didnt change anything else.


Maybe Sera has something else in it that inhibits plants OR it contains excessive amounts of sodium bicarbonate. I wonder what the *concentration* of NaHCO3 and other salts is in this commercial product? (Just because it comes in a package doesn't mean it is any good.)

To help plants in softwater, it's hard to go wrong with tapwater plus MgSO4 and CaCl2.


----------

