# Plants turning black at the leaves then dying off



## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

Hi all. New to the forum, and here looking for possible answers to my problem.
Have a 20 gallon tank with a variety of plants. Starting a couple of days ago the leaves on my s repens started turning black on the edges, then the whole leaf then dying off on me. I also have some taller leafed plants(not sure the type) that are exhibiting brown portions at the tips of the leaves as well. These plants were doing really well up til a few days ago, and now something has changed.
I am very monogamous with my liquid fertilizing schedule, and I do a 50 per cent water change every seven days like clock work. I don`t overfeed the fish as far as I know, but I do usually have my single bulb flourescent grow light on for about 10 hours a day. I also dose co2 (citric,baking soda) whenever the lights are on. Attached are a couple of pictures of the damage. The circled area was full of s repens and you can see the black color of the leaves. When I do my water changes I vac the substrate and plants to get the any build up of detritus out as well. My liquid ferts are seachems. Potassium,iron,nitro,flourish and phosphorus. 
Any idea what the problem would be, and why all of a sudden?
Thanks


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Welcome!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Welcome to the forum, I'm sure we can figure out a good answer for you. Is your 20 gallon tank about 30" x 12" x 12", or 20" long or 24" long - there are at least that many common shapes for a 20 gallon tank. The reason this is important is that the light intensity from any kind of light is higher the closer the light is to the substrate. And, if you have more than low light you can run into problems if you don't have enough CO2 and/or Excel or equivalent in the water. The S. repens looks like it could be a form of black algae which usually shows up when you don't have enough CO2.

A full tank photo might help some of us, too.

Off topic a bit: how do you like the citric acid DIY CO2 method?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I can almost guarantee this is a mix of unstable conditions (Co2 as hoppy said & light) & deficiency's.

I say in almost every help thread now that seachems fertilizers are great for experienced people with very Specific dosing needs. if your using seachems. Potassium , iron , nitro , flourish and phosphorus then this is most likely your issue IMO as I have suffered the same dosing mistakes as you in my early years.

I say switch over to Thrive+ (an all in one fertilizer) from NilocG, I use it for my 65 with .5% additional dosage and it works perfectly so far despite my own light adjustments. Another thing is that seachems fertz cost SO much more than normal fertz from NilocG or GLA.

In conclusion what I'm saying is I think your issue is that you have fluctuating Co2 levels and that you have some deficiencies alongside that.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

Good morning Hoppy...thanks for the reply.
I should have specified my tank. Its 24in wide,12in front to back and 16inch high. The single bulb flourescent I installed in the original hood is a full spectrum one found at our local green house supplier up here. Its also one that my wife was using for at least a year or more, so the bulb could probably or should be replaced with a new one.
I don`t measure water chems in regards to the co2 other than the old standby of `one bubble per second` from my diffuser. Its my first time with co2 and have only been using it for a month now.
And in your opinion in regards to the seachem dosing....when you say deficient, do you mean possibly to little dosing or to much? With some long research I came across a guy online who liked this schedule.....
Sat...Water change
Sun...Potas,Phos,Nitro
Mon...Flourish,Iron
Tue...na
Weds...Pot,Phos,Nitro
Thurs...Flourish,Iron
Fri...na

And with all that said....whew...what would be the most foolproof way to watch any of these levels? Test kits?

Thanks again


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

Morning Dutch.
I will look online for the Thrive, as I have never seen it at any of our box stores here. They tend to stick to the `big box` brands and sometimes have to order online or weed through the crappy products by testing.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

Morning all.....here is the requested picture of my tank. I was quite enjoying the size and how I have developed the tank over the last few months. And my plants were doing very well too, with pearling quite evident...until now that is.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to the forum, I'm sure we can figure out a good answer for you. Is your 20 gallon tank about 30" x 12" x 12", or 20" long or 24" long - there are at least that many common shapes for a 20 gallon tank. The reason this is important is that the light intensity from any kind of light is higher the closer the light is to the substrate. And, if you have more than low light you can run into problems if you don't have enough CO2 and/or Excel or equivalent in the water. The S. repens looks like it could be a form of black algae which usually shows up when you don't have enough CO2.
> 
> A full tank photo might help some of us, too.
> 
> Off topic a bit: how do you like the citric acid DIY CO2 method?


In regards to the diy co2 I use, I suppose I`m to new to it to really know either way. Having said that, I havent had any problems using the citric acid method. It mixes well and I have good pressure build within the system. The chinese valve system I bought works well enough, although the pressure regulator is veeeeery finicky and needs a very fine touch to get the bubble count just right. But I was kind of expecting that considering the price.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A single T8 bulb at 16 inches from the substrate is probably giving you 30-40 PAR light intensity. That is low light, and should be enough to slowly grow the plants you have. I suggest reading http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/133058-diy-co2.html for some information about CO2. I think you would get better results if you increase the amount of CO2 you use. DIY CO2 in that size aquarium is not likely to harm the fish, because you rarely get enough CO2 from it to do so.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html is a good primer on fertilizing. This isn't the only method for fertilizing, but it is simple, and almost always works well.

The reason I asked about the citric acid CO2 system is that I was never able to get mine to work right. I'm still wondering what I was doing wrong. I stick to the yeast/sugar water method now.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

Hey Hoppy.....thanks for the links.
As for my co2 method with the citrus, I found it works as advertised as far as i can tell. Having said that, I think I am going to pick up a drop checker to make sure I`m in the range I need to be. Like you said, maybe I`m not dosing enough.
For you info, this is the the mix I use.....
Bottle A 200ml citric acid and 600ml of water
Battle B 200ml baking soda and 200ml of water
I found that I had to buy a fresh box of soda! I had a box that was only open for a month or two in my pantry, but got no pressure when I tried my first batch. Got a little suspicious and went out and bought a fresh box...and viola...it worked great. I made sure to put the rest I wasnt using into a ziploc bag to keep it fresh. Maybe that was your problem? And I also found that while it pressurized the bottle at first by squeeze, it wasn`t measuring much on the dial. But after a few hours it came up and exchanged properly and seems to last at least a couple of weeks before exhausting out.
Maybe try it again.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

created1 said:


> Hey Hoppy.....thanks for the links.
> As for my co2 method with the citrus, I found it works as advertised as far as i can tell. Having said that, I think I am going to pick up a drop checker to make sure I`m in the range I need to be. Like you said, maybe I`m not dosing enough.
> For you info, this is the the mix I use.....
> Bottle A 200ml citric acid and 600ml of water
> ...


I have my routine too well established now to want to try the citric acid again. Maybe when I run into problems and get frustrated I will give it another try.

The little drop checker I use, which is shown in that thread, looks now like it has a very slow leak, which gradually dilutes the solution in it. I'm thinking of looking for something almost like it but not plastic and preferably not relying on an O-ring to seal it. It worked great for a year, though.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

I hear you. As I am really new to aquariums let alone planted ones, routine seems to be the key to success. And why the `why fix it if aint broke` definitely applies lol
But out of curiosity in regards to lighting...what is high lighting for a 16in high tank like mine running T5`s?
Like I said, I have a single t5 grow bulb, but its probably waaaay past due for a new one. Is a new single bulb considered high lighting at that depth, or would I still need a dual setup?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Sorry, I assumed your light was a T8 bulb, not a T5. There are two versions of T5 bulb lights, T5NO and T5HO. The HO (high output) version produces considerably more light than either T8 or T5NO bulbs. And, even with HO lights, the amount of light you get depends on the quality of the ballast and the reflector. T8 lights almost never have a good reflector, and the ballasts are pretty standard, so there is much less variation in their output. Do you know who the manufacturer of the light you have is? Can you take a photo of it, looking at the bulb/reflector?


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

No worries.....
Here is the link to the light.....
http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=67298&cat=2,44716
Its a 6400k full spectrum. I think it has a pretty good reflector on it, but I was thinking of replacing the clear plastic shield below it (on the aquarium cover) with actual glass. Over the years the water stains have obscured it and glass would clean better for better light penetration I figure. And like I said, the bulb is at least a year and a half old, so I am going to have to replace it.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A one bulb T5NO light, even with a pretty good reflector isn't going to give you enough light for plants. You need about 25-30 PAR, at the substrate, to keep most plants growing very slowly, and you would likely get around 20 or less PAR. A one bulb T5HO could get pretty close to 25 PAR, but that would be marginal for most plants. The swords and moss would do ok, but I doubt that the S. repens are going to grow with that light. Obviously, a new bulb is better than an old one, and a clean cover glass is better than a dirty glass, but I just don't think that is going to work with S. repens in any case. One effect of using CO2 is that the plants don't need as much light if they have lots of CO2 available. So, I suggest you increase the CO2 bubble rate as much as you can, and see if that helps enough. If that doesn't do it, I would look to replace the light.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

Well thanks for the advice and help. I think I am going to replace the bulb first off. Then after that I am going to replace the plastic hood in its entirety and make a glass sliding top. Once I do that, I can move the light forward much more and hit those repens more and then see what happens. If I find its not helping I can get another t5 and have two of them going.
Thanks again.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> A one bulb T5NO light, even with a pretty good reflector isn't going to give you enough light for plants. You need about 25-30 PAR, at the substrate, to keep most plants growing very slowly, and you would likely get around 20 or less PAR. A one bulb T5HO could get pretty close to 25 PAR, but that would be marginal for most plants. The swords and moss would do ok, but I doubt that the S. repens are going to grow with that light. Obviously, a new bulb is better than an old one, and a clean cover glass is better than a dirty glass, but I just don't think that is going to work with S. repens in any case. One effect of using CO2 is that the plants don't need as much light if they have lots of CO2 available. So, I suggest you increase the CO2 bubble rate as much as you can, and see if that helps enough. If that doesn't do it, I would look to replace the light.


Morning Hoppy.
Got to work in the shop this morning and re worked the top of the aquarium. Made a sliding all glass cover and sliding mount for my T5 light. Now I can have clean clear view to the bottom of the tank and also place the light nearer the front to get the light on the s repens. Hoping this helps a lot.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

neato!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

created1 said:


> Morning Hoppy.
> Got to work in the shop this morning and re worked the top of the aquarium. Made a sliding all glass cover and sliding mount for my T5 light. Now I can have clean clear view to the bottom of the tank and also place the light nearer the front to get the light on the s repens. Hoping this helps a lot.


That looks like it will work very well! I would still try to get more CO2 in the water, just to make it more likely to work.


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## created1 (Dec 9, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> That looks like it will work very well! I would still try to get more CO2 in the water, just to make it more likely to work.


I`m hoping so, cuz as witnessed by the attached photo, this is the damage done since posting last week. The `during` and `after` are quite different.


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