# Help with planted piranha tank



## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

I have a 75 gallon tank. 
Substrate = 100 pounds of flourite and about 70 pounds of regular black gravel over the flourite. 
Lighting = 220 watts, 6700K, power compacts
DIY co2, 2 2 liter bottles, diffusing through magnum 350
ph = ~7.25
kh = 3
I just got some greg watson fertilizers today, CSM+B & KNO3.
In the tank I have 3 piranhas (I feed them about twice a week and remove leftovers immediately), a raphael catfish, and one tiger barb.
Plants = 25 Dwarf sags, contortionist val, 5 jungle vals, java moss, and a few java ferns.
I am sorry for the newbie questions but here it goes...
So what other fertilizers should I get? I want to save money so what would be the cheapest way to go? I should add another diy co2 bottle or two, yes? Is the way I am diffusing my co2 efficient? What would be a good dosing schedule? I have read some about the EI method which is appealing due to not having to test constantly.
Thank you for the help!


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## Dewmazz (Sep 6, 2005)

Not sure 'bout the nutrients, but as far as the co2 goes, you're averaging only 6ppm :shock: ! Yes, you may want to add more co2 bottles. Have you considered gallon jugs or or 2 gal water bottles? How is your diffuser set up? You may consider an easy internal reactor made from gravel-cleaning tubes or simply attaching the co2 line to some powerheads. There's also excellent in-line reactor plans in the DIY forum. There's numerous articles on co2 reactor set-ups strewn throughout these forums. I hope some of this helps...


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

If you can I would go with a pressurized C02 system for your tank. It will make it a lot easier to maintain 20-30ppm of C02 saturation. 

Besides the two ferts you mentioned I also dose K2S04 (potassium sulfate), P04 (phosphates) and iron. 

I don't use the EI method or any others, I just dose by measuring out ml/cc. 

I would suggest to add more plants to your tank, more fast growers than slow growers. This will help soak up those nutrients that algae also feed on. 

Also get test kits for N03 & P04 before you start dosing these ferts.


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## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

I have struggled a lot with the diy CO2 and am going to give up on it, it was going for a while but obiously not producing enough. I made some new batches and now it isn't working so I am going to switch to low light without co2 until I can get pressurized. I just don't have the money to go pressurized. When I do should I get a ph controller? Are they necessary?
What are some good fast-growing plants?
Thanks for the replies Dewmazz and trenac!


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

BigChuck... When you get ready for a pressurized system, check out this link: http://sammyxp.tripod.com/html/id23.html

At least use some Seachem Excel for a carbon source in your low light tank.

I don't use a ph controller. They are not needed, but just used as a safeguard to keep the PH form going to low.

Good fast growing plants are... Hornwort, Anarcharis, Watersprite, wisteria, Rotala indica, Hygro.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Since most of the food you will be adding will be live fish etc, you will need K2SO4, KH2PO4 and traces, perhaps Mg.

Plan on frequent water changes. Treat them like high bioload Discus tank.
You will need a good sized filter also, wet drys will be ideal, pressurized CO2 is about the only sane way to go here, pass on the pH controller(unless you like testing the KH often). That will save you about 30-100$ right there. See CO2 cost set up threads.
I've been able to set up a tank/reg/needel valve for about 100$ and then DIY the CO2 reactors(eg see my site and the verturi adapted external reactors) for about 2-10$ depending on how you want it set up and where.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

trenac said:


> BigChuck... When you get ready for a pressurized system, check out this link: http://sammyxp.tripod.com/html/id23.html
> 
> At least use some Seachem Excel for a carbon source in your low light tank.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks. If I dose with the seachems should I reduce all surface agitation like when injecting co2?



plantbrain said:


> Since most of the food you will be adding will be live fish etc, you will need K2SO4, KH2PO4 and traces, perhaps Mg.
> 
> Plan on frequent water changes. Treat them like high bioload Discus tank.
> You will need a good sized filter also, wet drys will be ideal, pressurized CO2 is about the only sane way to go here, pass on the pH controller(unless you like testing the KH often). That will save you about 30-100$ right there. See CO2 cost set up threads.
> ...


I don't feed my piranhas any live food because feeders are not healthy and usually have ich and other various diseases. I feed my piranhas smelt, shrimp, catfish, salmon, etc... So will that change anything?
I read another post, http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=8530&page=3, by you that said with a non-co2 tank don't do many water changes at all, like months at a time, is it different just because I have piranhas? Right now I do 2 25% water changes (I do not gravel vac) a week. As for filters I have a fluval 4 and a magnum 350 as well as a 295gph powerhead to create a strong current for the guys to swim in. 
Can you give me an idea as to how I should dose my tank with ferts?
I really appreciate all the help!


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

I don't advise you spend money on pressurized CO2 for one main reason, young Piranha's need strong currents to help them with proper growth and stimulate their muscles and since you're using a powerhead to do that; it would be wasteful to just keep dosing extra CO2 to make up for the escaping CO2. Instead invest in Seachem Excel, it's simply a source of carbon - it's not CO2 gas, so it won't dissipate at the surface. 

Piranha's are messy eaters and usually leave scraps of food uneaten, so your basically set in terms of NO3 production. For PO4 use Fleet Enema, it's cheap and highly concentrated. You already bought K from Greg and you also have the trace mix. I would only advise, once your trace mix is finished, to use Flourish as it's much better and many have reported better growth as ooposed to CSM+B. And you should think about getting another Fluval 4 or better a Rena XP3 (when you have the money) to help with filtiration as the Magnum 350 isn't an efficient mechanical filter.

What species are you keeping?


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## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

Raul-7 said:


> I don't advise you spend money on pressurized CO2 for one main reason, young Piranha's need strong currents to help them with proper growth and stimulate their muscles and since you're using a powerhead to do that; it would be wasteful to just keep dosing extra CO2 to make up for the escaping CO2. Instead invest in Seachem Excel, it's simply a source of carbon - it's not CO2 gas, so it won't dissipate at the surface.
> 
> Piranha's are messy eaters and usually leave scraps of food uneaten, so your basically set in terms of NO3 production. For PO4 use Fleet Enema, it's cheap and highly concentrated. You already bought K from Greg and you also have the trace mix. I would only advise, once your trace mix is finished, to use Flourish as it's much better and many have reported better growth as ooposed to CSM+B. And you should think about getting another Fluval 4 or better a Rena XP3 (when you have the money) to help with filtiration as the Magnum 350 isn't an efficient mechanical filter.
> 
> What species are you keeping?


I don't understand why it would be wasteful for me to go pressurized. I am able to have no surface agitation so I wouldn't have escaping co2. The powerhead is set half way down the glass and is pointed straight across the tank so it is not disrupting the surface.
I have turned the magnum350 into a bio filter by filling the middle with gravel for the beneficial bacteria to grow and have never had any problems with ammonia spikes or bad params, your right though the mag is not that great and I intend to get a rena when I have money.
Where could I buy Fleet Enema?
I am keeping in the 75 two pygocentrus natteris and one cariba, the cariba is massive, ca 12" and the two natts are smaller, ca 7" & 4"
I also have a 40 with a brandti, he is an evil one and it is awesome!
Thanks!


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> I don't advise you spend money on pressurized CO2 for one main reason, young Piranha's need strong currents to help them with proper growth and stimulate their muscles and since you're using a powerhead to do that; it would be wasteful to just keep dosing extra CO2 to make up for the escaping CO2. Instead invest in Seachem Excel, it's simply a source of carbon - it's not CO2 gas, so it won't dissipate at the surface.


I don't understand that either. You can very easily have strong current and lots of co2. It isn't like he necessarily has to have the return aimed right at the surface.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Sorry I was assuming you had it had near the surface. Then if it's half way down then go ahead with pressurized, your powerhead can double as your reactor.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd still suggest the NO3 is mainly going to come from the fish you are feeding, live or otherwise.

Fish and such are very high in Nitrogen.
But what you need to concern your self with is all the bacteria and plant biomass needed to control that high level of NH4 being produced.

A good filter is mandatory as well as large frequent water changes.
Discus are no different.

If the NH4 backs up due to poor filtration or poor plant growth(say from low CO2), you will get algae blooms.

So the water changes will certainly help.

If you wanted to go with a non CO2 route, plan on about 2 fish, fully grown in a 90 gal tank.

Simply because it's a non CO2 plant tank does not imply you get to stuff the tank with large messy fish.

Non CO2 tanks are balanced on the lower stocking side to do well and topped off with a little ferts once a week etc.

There are trade offs for each method.

Lower stocking levels or more work.

My personal favorite is a fully planted Whimple prianha tank.
They are ideal fish for a planted predator tank.
A school of 12 in a 135 gal tank would be nice.

It's good you do not feed them live foods, this is a key thing.
Bully for you.

Are you going to use a sump/wetdry?
I can give you some cheap tips for making your own and also setting up a cheap highly effective CO2 reactor/return system.
Also, see about automatic water changers.

You can set them up to do 30-50% weekly or 2x a week etc
So then you can have both less work and good plant growth, and good water quality.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I'd still suggest the NO3 is mainly going to come from the fish you are feeding, live or otherwise.
> 
> Fish and such are very high in Nitrogen.
> But what you need to concern your self with is all the bacteria and plant biomass needed to control that high level of NH4 being produced.
> ...


I already have good filtration and have had no problems with my parameters(ammonia - 0 ppm, nitrite 0 ppm, ph constant at 7.2)



> If you wanted to go with a non CO2 route, plan on about 2 fish, fully grown in a 90 gal tank.


The tank(75 gallon) is already set up and been so for about 2 years, the biggest piranha, ~12" and the smaller guy ~4" were just added at the beginning of the month. I am not changing any of the inhabitants or tank size so I have to work with what I have.



> Simply because it's a non CO2 plant tank does not imply you get to stuff the tank with large messy fish.
> 
> Non CO2 tanks are balanced on the lower stocking side to do well and topped off with a little ferts once a week etc.
> 
> ...


The filtration I have is fine, plus if I get co2, which hopefully will happen next month, a wetdry would not be ideal since the co2 will just dissapate during filtration



> You can set them up to do 30-50% weekly or 2x a week etc
> So then you can have both less work and good plant growth, and good water quality.


That would be awesome to have but I want to concentrate all of my efforts towards an amazing planted tank



> Regards,
> Tom Barr
> 
> www.BarrReport.com


I'll try seachems carbo till I get the pressurized co2 system going and mess around with fertilizing to see what works out best. Thanks for the help, I would love any more tips anyone has.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, the 2x a week method will work very well and keep water quality high.
After the tank settles in and you get use to doing the routines and dosing etc, then, you can back off to once a week or longer if you keep a good eye on things.

Wet/drys do not dispate CO2 unless they have air vents which should be sealed, and if the overflow has a large drop.
With gas CO2, you can simply add a touch more anyway.

But that is not an issue if the filter set up works already.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Well, the 2x a week method will work very well and keep water quality high.
> After the tank settles in and you get use to doing the routines and dosing etc, then, you can back off to once a week or longer if you keep a good eye on things.
> *I'll do my best*
> Wet/drys do not dispate CO2 unless they have air vents which should be sealed, and if the overflow has a large drop.
> ...


I have done some research on co2 and will probably *crosses fingers* be getting a system at the beginning of next month.

I actually am at 2 piranhas now,  I lost one two days ago, he was my first and I had had him for 2 years. RIP lil buddy


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## johnst65 (Sep 22, 2005)

*C02 Regulator*

here is a nice regulator cheap
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ma957-CO2-REGUL...718527897QQcategoryZ66794QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## BigChuckP (Oct 8, 2005)

I am using seachem's excel now, does that mean I can turn up my wattage? I am at 2 wpg right now, would I be able to go up to 3 or even 3.5?
Thanks


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

No, stick with what you have. 2w/gal will grow anything and it's better to have higher CO2/Excel and less light. Exzcel is not the same as CO2, it's about 1/3 CO2 in terms of growth rates.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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