# Is there a market for driftwood?



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry if this is the wrong sub-forum...I just wanted to ask if there is a market for driftwood(commericaly).
I would guess some of you may not have access to large bodies of water, where it's easy to find?
I can collect it by the pickup truck full(live 45 minute drive from Lake Michigan), and have considered setting up an online store. I find anything from simple straight sticks, to elaborate whole root balls and stumps(lots of the latter, as much of the lakeshore is heavily forested.)
Anyway..any advice? Prices would be really reasonable..I DID see "florida driftwood" and was just stunned by the prices...


----------



## fluffiebuggie (Sep 25, 2007)

I would be cautious.

There is a market for all sorts of things, but I would not rely on this only. If you do, you are not trying to build a business, you are after a quick $.

As for collecting wood by the truck load, there is something morally questionable about your motives.
This is not how driftwood is brought to the market, and I'm sure local authorities and environmental bodies would have something to say about it too.


----------



## Church (Sep 16, 2007)

^ That's kind of a strange response (no offense, fluffie). I would think that if you are simply collecting dead driftwood off a beach or riverbank, you would be breaking no laws. There is no law I'm familiar with (or even environmental ethic) that says you cannot clean the beaches of junk, whether man-made or natural. I say, have at it.

There's a market for everything. What matters is how you approach and handle your "transactions."

But definitely don't go chopping down still-living trees, and ESPECIALLY not mangroves.


----------



## JG06 (Nov 5, 2006)

If you're collecting stuff from the wild, do you plan to sterilize it before you sell it? Will it be "pre-waterlogged" so it'll sink when the customer receives it? How much time do you have to devote to going to the lake to collect more product? Do you have a good enough understanding of HTML and website development to build and maintain a website and electronic store?

These are all things you'll have to think about. While I would agree that yes, there is a market for good driftwood, and yes an online store would probably be the best approach to market for you, I would urge you to think this through a little more before stepping into it. It may require some investment up front to get it running and may be more trouble than you might want to put into it. Or maybe not. Think it over a little is all...

That said, everyone loves a good piece of properly placed driftwood...it finishes a natural aquarium out IMO!


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

fluffiebuggie said:


> I would be cautious.
> 
> There is a market for all sorts of things, but I would not rely on this only. If you do, you are not trying to build a business, you are after a quick $.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you are so upset...collecting driftwood is perfectly legal....we are not talking live trees...we are talking piles of wood washed up on the beach. It's I'm sure how the guys in Florida get it, and I'm sure, where all of it sold at your local store comes from.


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Church said:


> ^ That's kind of a strange response (no offense, fluffie). I would think that if you are simply collecting dead driftwood off a beach or riverbank, you would be breaking no laws. There is no law I'm familiar with (or even environmental ethic) that says you cannot clean the beaches of junk, whether man-made or natural. I say, have at it.
> 
> There's a market for everything. What matters is how you approach and handle your "transactions."
> 
> But definitely don't go chopping down still-living trees, and ESPECIALLY not mangroves.


Not many mangroves growing along the shore of lake Michigan!
Seriously though..I hear you and if I did it, I'd have photos of all the pieces, you could just pick the exact one you wanted. Or..I'd try to find a specific piece that matches what a person was looking for(that would likely have a premium cost, as it would entail a special trip to the shoreline ).


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

JG06 said:


> If you're collecting stuff from the wild, do you plan to sterilize it before you sell it? Will it be "pre-waterlogged" so it'll sink when the customer receives it? How much time do you have to devote to going to the lake to collect more product? Do you have a good enough understanding of HTML and website development to build and maintain a website and electronic store?
> 
> These are all things you'll have to think about. While I would agree that yes, there is a market for good driftwood, and yes an online store would probably be the best approach to market for you, I would urge you to think this through a little more before stepping into it. It may require some investment up front to get it running and may be more trouble than you might want to put into it. Or maybe not. Think it over a little is all...
> 
> That said, everyone loves a good piece of properly placed driftwood...it finishes a natural aquarium out IMO!


I already have an e-store (4 available, actually)..so that's covered! Collecting could be done once or twice a year, I imagine, unless it really took off. Really...you CAN collect by the truck load, particularly after a big storm.
As to the question of sterilizing and pre-sinking, my initial thought is no, I'd leave that up to the consumer. That would keep the price down. I've already done some initial inquiring into the legalities of reselling driftwood, and there is no problem at all there. Indeed, it's already quite a cottage industry in our tourist areas. You can go into any little souviner shop up here, and they all have a box if it in a corner some place.


----------



## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I would be concerned about it coming from Lake Michigan. Its fairly polluted, from what I understand. I'm sure I'm being a little over cautious, but I wouldn't put lake Michigan wood, in any of my tanks.


----------



## spypet (Jul 27, 2007)

I know a driftwood collector reseller in SoCal.
There you must have a permit to collect loose
wood from the parks department for the purpose
of burning it in your fireplace. this does not limit
it's end use, just the quantity you can collect,
and methods used, on any given day.


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

T-Bone said:


> I would be concerned about it coming from Lake Michigan. Its fairly polluted, from what I understand. I'm sure I'm being a little over cautious, but I wouldn't put lake Michigan wood, in any of my tanks.


Lake Michigan has a rather unfair reputation for being polluted. The type of problem that mainly affects the lake, is heavy metal, which is not something that's going to "soak into" a piece of driftwood that's already inert(dead). It generally settles into the bottom silt, and in time can "climb" the food web and even get to dangerous levels in some fish, but the way it does this is by invading the food chain itself, starting out with detritus sifting plankton, and working it's way up via concentration(a convoluted explanation, I know) The bottom line is that wood soaked in the water is not likely to harbour any unusual amounts of pollution. I would not collect from major metro areas, so I'd hopefully avoid any issues with sewage or other short term pollutants.
Your concern is valid though, so glad in a way you brought it up.


----------



## Blacksunshine (Aug 11, 2006)

are you talking about random sticks or quality pieces? 
Most drift wood that washes up is crap. And if you aren't going to take the time to sterilize the pieces wash them and dry them. how would this be a better option then just getting stuff from the LFS that I know is safe to use in my tank? And I have the ability to hand pick myself? Most the Drift wood that we use in this hobby dosen't just wash up on the beach. The malasian Drift wood is dug and hacked from the roots of trees cleaned and sundried long before it gets to this country. Bog wood type is very similar in origin just different type trees. 
Very different in look then the stuff you generally see washing up on shore. 
And I gaurentee if you are taking truckloads of driftwood from any parks someones is going to have an issue with it and wanna see permits and licenses. Sure no ones gonna bat an eye at a stick. But a truck load is a different story.


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Blacksunshine said:


> are you talking about random sticks or quality pieces?
> Most drift wood that washes up is crap. And if you aren't going to take the time to sterilize the pieces wash them and dry them. how would this be a better option then just getting stuff from the LFS that I know is safe to use in my tank? And I have the ability to hand pick myself? Most the Drift wood that we use in this hobby dosen't just wash up on the beach. The malasian Drift wood is dug and hacked from the roots of trees cleaned and sundried long before it gets to this country. Bog wood type is very similar in origin just different type trees.
> Very different in look then the stuff you generally see washing up on shore.
> And I gaurentee if you are taking truckloads of driftwood from any parks someones is going to have an issue with it and wanna see permits and licenses. Sure no ones gonna bat an eye at a stick. But a truck load is a different story.


Good questions! My thought was to do something very similar to the "Florida driftwood" site(found on the net, I think) but for far less money. From reading that site, it appears the wood is collected from the shore.(at least, the local stuff is..they also offer exotic I think). I would suspect that the high price is based on the fact that they do the sterilizing...so that's where I thought I could offer a similar product, but for a fraction of the cost. Indeed, if you do the sterilizing yourself, you at least know for sure that it's done right! I know alot of people sterilize things from the lFS regardless..so this would just be a way to get a nice piece of wood, at a much lower price.
As to picking your own piece, I'd have photos up I'd think of the stuff, so you could see the piece you were getting. 
The quote above I highlighted in red is interesting... An earlier comment some place questioned the morality(I guess!) of what I am thinking of. How is collecting already dead wood any worse(or as bad) as that? Just an observation of course..but it is a bit ironic!
I guess the easiest thing will be to simply get some pieces and see if there is a market. I'll likely do it via an ebay store or something similar, although I do have 4 websites available via my hosting company, that I've not yet used, all of which have built in web store programing..so I'm set up either way. If I do, I'll post here(or in a commercial section more then likely).


----------



## Blacksunshine (Aug 11, 2006)

It would be interesting to see what you have available to you. 
I'm not going to toss any issues of morality into the mix. This is far less of an issue then the other things in this world that our dollars pay into. More of an issue you would need to research is the legality of it. like I said. pulling one or two sticks and taking them home and a truck load are very different things. So just to protect yourself look into this and see how it effects the areas that you plan on collecting. 
I think more of the cost that is associated with the wood we get is more the transport of it from Asia to here. The sterilization process isn't really all that extensive. Its likely just a light bleach misting and then allowing the piece to sun dry for a few days. the cost is minimal compared to the potential danger introducing a contaminated piece to ones tank. A lot of people don't have the facilities to sterilize and sun dry large pieces of wood themselves so its a step most would like to avoid if possible I'd imagine. If you do you should incorporate that process as it is highly beneficial to all parties involved.


----------



## irish (Aug 12, 2006)

I understand what everyone is saying about legalities. You dont want to get yourself into any trouble. But, people have been picking stuff up off shores and selling it for years. Driftwood, shells, hermit crabs, ect. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, and I think it's rather smart. You are right in that other companies are charging an arm and a leg for driftwood, and those of us who live in a landlocked state dont have the option to go collect our own. Where I live, driftwood of any considerable size or unique structure is not only hard to find, but very very expensive when you do. Kudos to you, and I am always in the market for a good root structure or two, and dont get me started on stumps.......

Irish


----------



## irish (Aug 12, 2006)

Blacksunshine said:


> I think more of the cost that is associated with the wood we get is more the transport of it from Asia to here. The sterilization process isn't really all that extensive. Its likely just a light bleach misting and then allowing the piece to sun dry for a few days. the cost is minimal compared to the potential danger introducing a contaminated piece to ones tank. A lot of people don't have the facilities to sterilize and sun dry large pieces of wood themselves so its a step most would like to avoid if possible I'd imagine. If you do you should incorporate that process as it is highly beneficial to all parties involved.


To be honest, I wouldnt mind saving some money and doing it myself. If I am responsible enough to put the driftwood in my tank, then I am responsible enough to properly clean it. Do you or anyone else you know buy driftwood from a major retailer or LFS and just assume its clean? I know I dont...

Irish


----------



## fluffiebuggie (Sep 25, 2007)

I do apologize for being so defensive in my initial post. But there is something a little worrying about collecting it by the truck load from a natural environment. 

I think the difference when buying it from an LFS is that you trust that it was collected by a licensed company whose methods are monitored.

Can I suggest you approach the people who manage the land and waters and talk to them about a partnership?
Instead of driving in there and grabbing a natural material from the environment to make money from, you could ask them about selling it on for them and taking a percentage. No doubt they collect what they need to to *effectively **manage * the environment and keep a balance, and they probably burn it not realizing that there is a market.

I wouldn't have a problem with this if you found a few nice pieces yourself and took them home to use, but you are talking about taking from the environment, in a large quantity, and giving *nothing *back.

I am shocked that others here have no problem with it. Especially when we all deal with an enclosed ecosystem through this hobby and know how carefully balanced it all is!


----------



## chadly (Dec 19, 2005)

I'm sure there's no problem with it, just don't take it from state land.


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

fluffiebuggie said:


> I do apologize for being so defensive in my initial post. But there is something a little worrying about collecting it by the truck load from a natural environment.
> 
> I think the difference when buying it from an LFS is that you trust that it was collected by a licensed company whose methods are monitored.
> 
> ...


Per the quote in Red.
From what I can tell..most of the wood taken for the LFS is taken from what were live trees. Think about that for a moment...

I have a serious question for those of you who are worried that selling a few pieces of driftwood is somehow going to cause some kind of environmental problem...
What do you think of the fact that the plants, and fish, and "driftwood" in your tanks, purchased from your LFS, mostly originated from the wild, and in the case of the driftwood..likely came as an indirect result of cutting some part of a rain forest?(if the wood is being harvested from roots of trees...what do you think happened to the trees the roots used to be attached to?).
Anyway...I apologies if that is a bit harsh, as I am sure you all mean well..but really, think about what I am thinking of trying, and what happens with "real" wood from your LFS. If you do..I suspect you will see my actions as actually far less invasive then the alternative.
(BTW, I will make sure I check for any needed permits ahead of time..although so far, I've come up blank in looking for anything needed along those lines).


----------



## fluffiebuggie (Sep 25, 2007)

Sorry, but I don't think it is fair to compare in the way you have.
Pointing at others and assuming they are acting in a specific way does not give permission to do the same 

My LFS has a supplier, that supplier has a licence to catch, breed, supply etc otherwise they would not be permitted to supply in the UK.
The wood supplied at my LFS I am pretty sure has a tag on it stating that it has come from a sustainable and managed source. Having not bought any I'll need to look.

Personally, I research the fish that I like. If I see that something is generally caught from the wild I don't buy it. In the same way that I buy free range eggs and fair trade coffee. No it's not always accurate, but at least I make the effort.

I don't want to deliberately insult you or offend, I don't know you and have no right to make personal judgments, but... the act of taking a lot of natural material from a natural environment to make money for yourself while giving nothing back is something that I find worrying and arrogant in the extreme.
I am not intending to insult, it is the action itself I find arrogant.

What would be more appropriate would be to go to the people who manage the land and ask them about their process of clearing land and collecting the wood that is found. Ask them what they do with it (there might already be another business involved that you haven't considered!). Then offer to buy it from them at a flat rate; this is money they didn't have before, in fact they probably waste money by having it removed!
In connection with this, you can create good PR by stating that you are assisting this organization financially, and that the material has come from a managed and sustainable environment!

This method of course means starting small, due to the financial investment of you buying the first lot. But starting small allows it to grow and allows you to judge the market before filling your house with wood you might never sell.
This is what I meant in another post about the difference between making a quick $ and running a business. A business grows with time, investment and development.
And if you work with these people there is a lot of room for development. If there is as much wood as you say there is you could build a sustainable business based on a brand which is recognized in the hobby as moral and fair; the selling of other products becomes a lot easier in relation to your brand. With the right advertising placement you would be filling a void in the market immediately (how hard is it to find good drift wood on line?)
If not, you'll make a few $ while risking a fine or worse, while negatively affecting an environment you know nothing about and while knowing what you are doing is not a valid business.

You have the option to build a good, long standing business and give back to the environment and community, or you could be greedy, drive in there and take what you want without any thought for anything but cash.
You can be sure that if I lived there I'd be meeting with the people who manage that land and water to offer them a business relationship tomorrow, then there would be a system put in place to immediately make people doing what you suggest illegal, this would protect my valid business and the partnership. Your quick $ is then gone and a person who went to them to build a partnership is building a valuable business which is protected.

Good luck.


----------



## Navarro (Feb 12, 2004)

I don't think this thread should be here, this forum is for aquascaping! perhaps is best to move it.
Cheers,
Luis Navarro


----------



## Grendel (Apr 11, 2005)

Just as an FYI, fluffie: I grew up in Michigan. I know exactly what sort of wood npnailer is talking about. If he weren't taking the wood, I'm sure it would either get hauled off by nearby residents for firewood, the DNR (or whatever local authority manages the area) would spend money doing it, or it would just sit there and slowly decompose. Heck, it would probably get washed back into the water with the next storm and drift off to another beach a few miles downshore. It's not a renewable resource (as it seems you're intimating) - it's essentially natural waste. He's got as much right as the next fellow to try to do something productive with it.


G


----------



## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

I guess as long as you check with local officials first, it should be fine.
And as long as you do state where you got it from and the process that you took through sterilizing it, people will be fine with it, unless of course you are doing something shady, which I doubt this is much. Thought is there that much wood that could be used as drift wood in tanks? Aren't most of them just linear pieces?


----------



## fluffiebuggie (Sep 25, 2007)

Grendel said:


> Just as an FYI, fluffie: I grew up in Michigan. I know exactly what sort of wood npnailer is talking about. If he weren't taking the wood, I'm sure it would either get hauled off by nearby residents for firewood, the DNR (or whatever local authority manages the area) would spend money doing it, or it would just sit there and slowly decompose. Heck, it would probably get washed back into the water with the next storm and drift off to another beach a few miles downshore. It's not a renewable resource (as it seems you're intimating) - it's essentially natural waste. He's got as much right as the next fellow to try to do something productive with it.
> 
> G


The fact that it is a natural waste is not my concern, the fact that a person is taking from the environment with the intention to make financial gain, and then giving nothing back to the environment from which he took, that is what I find essentially wrong.

Call me a Hippie, Left-Wing, Liberal, whatever you like, but there is something concerning about that kind of action in my opinion.
Maybe my feeling on this is affected by my beliefs and the way in which I was raised, but where I am from we don't just take what we want in order to make some money. Especially not when there is another option which would be far more beneficial.
If I were taking from the environment in this way I would feel obliged to give something back.

I don't think I can explain what I think any more than I already have.


----------



## Lingonfil (Jul 3, 2007)

> I have a serious question for those of you who are worried that selling a few pieces of driftwood is somehow going to cause some kind of environmental problem...


I think you should consider about whether you are causing any impact on the enviroment or not. By only having an effect on nature you are doing something bad regardless of if you consider that impact beneficial or not.



> it's essentially natural waste


Usually in nature when something dies it is benificial to other. There could be an entire ecosystem in a pice of junk driftwood. I saw this documentary once about an buffalo carcass and how it was just packed with life. There may be (and probably is) organsisms dependent on those pieces of driftwood.


----------



## PMD1 (Jan 19, 2006)

fluffiebuggie said:


> I would be cautious.
> 
> There is a market for all sorts of things, but I would not rely on this only. If you do, you are not trying to build a business, you are after a quick $.
> 
> ...


I don't undertand why this thread was hijacked by those who demonstrate no tolerance for someone who asked a legitimate question.

There is something questionable about those who would insuate evil motives to a perfectly reasonable business venture.

Can we keep the comments focused on addressing the original question?

Regards,

PMD1


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

PMD1 said:


> I don't undertand why this thread was hijacked by those who demonstrate no tolerance for someone who asked a legitimate question.
> 
> There is something questionable about those who would insuate evil motives to a perfectly reasonable business venture.
> 
> ...


Thanks PMD1. I am somewhat amazed by a couple of the replies, when these same people no doubt have wild caught fish or plants(or both), along with rocks more then likely, in their aquarium.
Are they honestly worried that by taking a piece of driftwood, and perhaps selling it..I am causing damage to the environment? Really? I guess I have no response that would satisfy them, other then they should very seriously consider getting out of the hobby altogether, if they are honestly concerned to that level about any use of any aspect of the environment. I'll repeat...I am certain that they have living things in their tanks that were removed from the wild. If I am looking at a balance of scales as far as "environmental damage" goes...I'll put the use of already dead driftwood against almost any aspect of this hobby, and be confident it would come up on the positive side.
I'll repeat..I will not be cutting live trees, or taking any living thing from the wild. I'll be using dead wood that's washed up on a beach, and as indicated, would either be picked up, cleaned and burned(by the DNR) or left to be ground up in the next few storms. 
If those of you who are of a mine that using that resource is evil, wish to not purchase anything..that of course is your right. However next spring, pending no need of permits(which it does not look like I need), I'll likely have a store ready for the rest of you. Thanks all for the feedback!


----------



## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

npnailer said:


> Thanks PMD1. I am somewhat amazed by a couple of the replies, when these same people no doubt have wild caught fish or plants(or both), along with rocks more then likely, in their aquarium.
> Are they honestly worried that by taking a piece of driftwood, and perhaps selling it..I am causing damage to the environment? Really? I guess I have no response that would satisfy them, other then they should very seriously consider getting out of the hobby altogether, if they are honestly concerned to that level about any use of any aspect of the environment. I'll repeat...I am certain that they have living things in their tanks that were removed from the wild. If I am looking at a balance of scales as far as "environmental damage" goes...I'll put the use of already dead driftwood against almost any aspect of this hobby, and be confident it would come up on the positive side.
> I'll repeat..I will not be cutting live trees, or taking any living thing from the wild. I'll be using dead wood that's washed up on a beach, and as indicated, would either be picked up, cleaned and burned(by the DNR) or left to be ground up in the next few storms.
> If those of you who are of a mine that using that resource is evil, wish to not purchase anything..that of course is your right. However next spring, pending no need of permits(which it does not look like I need), I'll likely have a store ready for the rest of you. Thanks all for the feedback!


Eh, I'm sorry, but I didn't have a problem with this, but your excuse doesn't really fit, as you say you want to take them back by the _truckloads_ rather than just a a few fishes, rocks, maybe like 10 branches? And you also want to profit off of these pieces, rather than for personal use. Most people would have permits etc for mass fishing for profits wouldn't they? And yeah, you should maybe do something to give back to the environment there? I'm sure theres a ecosystem that relies on the decay of that driftwood. I'm not saying there is though, but that's what people are saying, and you addressed a different problem.

But then again, as long as it's legal, and you aren't disturbing the environment, it should be perfectly fine.


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Edited because I've become convinced that some folks here are arguing just for arguments sake, and over some rather convoluted personal philosophy's...and I have no intention of continuing the ping pong match. My original intent, which was to find out if there was a potential market for "free range" driftwood, has been accomplished. I've had a number of PM's indicating support for the idea, so I'll look into what it takes to legally collect it, and if I decide it's a financially viable project, I'll go with it. Either way...for those of you who've expressed an interest in driftwood, I'll let you know when I get some around.


----------



## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

Hehe, yeah, wondering why you were still here if everyone was arguing and you already got your answer. Hope everything turns out good.


----------



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

gotcheaprice said:


> Hehe, yeah, wondering why you were still here if everyone was arguing and you already got your answer. Hope everything turns out good.


Yep, called the DNR today, and asked if I could collect driftwood from the beach and sell it online. They could care less, there are no restrictions. The only thing they don't allow is cutting trees, but nature of course has taken care of the issue in this case.


----------

