# Csm+b



## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

I am just catching up with fert dosing. I see my supplier of CSM+B has rolled the daily use amount way back in doing PPS-P method. What is the low down on this correction please?

thanks__________


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The only thing I can think of is the fairly recent, widely discussed idea, that too much trace element mix can be toxic to the plants. Perhaps that caused the change in the recommended dosage.


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## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

hoppycalif said:


> The only thing I can think of is the fairly recent, widely discussed idea, that too much trace element mix can be toxic to the plants. Perhaps that caused the change in the recommended dosage.


I am hearing it has to do with iron and it's relationship with water hardness. Trying to contact the store I bought the stuff from.
After talking to a Seachem tech, I am starting to rethink this abundance fertilizing system theory. Think about it. You pour on the minerals and in 7 days wash it out and start over again.
I am going to try a different system and throttle way back on the ferts. Maybe dose twice a week with a good recipe of food and a 20% water change.
I burnt the crap out of my liter of plants with something last go around. Not sure now if it was my fault or OD of trace dose?
I am not growing a Dutch garden anyway...not even close.


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## Letsfish (Dec 18, 2017)

Not knowing jack about ferts, someone recommended a macro/micro to me and to me they seem to be working better than nothing.I dose twice a week Monday and Thursday. Wednesday is water change day.


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## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

king kong said:


> I am hearing it has to do with iron and it's relationship with water hardness. Trying to contact the store I bought the stuff from.
> After talking to a Seachem tech, I am starting to rethink this abundance fertilizing system theory. Think about it. You pour on the minerals and in 7 days wash it out and start over again.
> I am going to try a different system and throttle way back on the ferts. Maybe dose twice a week with a good recipe of food and a 20% water change.
> I burnt the crap out of my liter of plants with something last go around. Not sure now if it was my fault or OD of trace dose?
> I am not growing a Dutch garden anyway...not even close.


The Micro Toxicity Wars began about three years ago.
This resulted in a reduction of micro nutrients by some, not all.

Iron with a chelator and it's availability to plants are related to pH.

The vendor that sold it cannot determine how you will use it.

Seachem tech? Their fertilizer dosing schedule is very weak.

Lather it on for 6 days and do a WC is what many do.
Definitely not what I am doing!
I lather it on only if I notice the decrease in NO3 & PO4.
My tanks have no visible substrate really, some weeks I dose quite heavily.
Happy shrimp and happy Cory's though!

Trying a different system?
PPS is pretty weak, maybe one step up from Seachem.

Why not dose twice a week with a product like Thrive from NilocG.com?
It could even be a twice a week reduced dose.

As far as burning your plants.
Was it a new tank and cycling with over 1ppm of ammonia?
Sorry had to ask?:mrgreen:


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

How are you gardening? Are you adding co2? Is you water hard or soft? I have a bag of CSM-B I have never used. I am constantly wiping the white water stains off the tanks. I really don't need it. What are you using for substrate? So many variables.


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## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The Micro Toxicity Wars began about three years ago.
> This resulted in a reduction of micro nutrients by some, not all.
> 
> Iron with a chelator and it's availability to plants are related to pH.
> ...


It must have been me dosing wrong which is possible at that time. I am back to the PPS-P system with 30 g of CSM at 1 ml per 10 gal and all is good.


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## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

BruceF said:


> How are you gardening? Are you adding co2? Is you water hard or soft? I have a bag of CSM-B I have never used. I am constantly wiping the white water stains off the tanks. I really don't need it. What are you using for substrate? So many variables.


Yes I agree, so many variables. I have settled in on a comfort zone that seems to be working as I try to catch up. I have hard well water with amazon which I like allot with a nice CO2 system.
2 things I have changed. I am mixing ferts myself and I request the CSM is stirred before bagged and when I dip into my bag I shake it up to distribute material.
I will try Thrive next as soon as I know what I am doing with the PPS-P system.


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## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

king kong said:


> I am mixing ferts myself and I request the CSM is stirred before bagged and when I dip into my bag I shake it up to distribute material.
> I will try Thrive next as soon as I know what I am doing with the PPS-P system.


Well scratch the Thrive, I didn't know you possessed all the compounds already!
I am not sure what form of Fe is in Colin's product though.

Edward's PPS system worked for me when the plant mass was much smaller.
I had no issues with it until "collectoritis" began!


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm a strong believer is stability in aquariums. Because of that I'm strongly against making 50% water changes at any one time. For myself using RO water this is extremely true. With a tank that has a GH of say 300 ppm if one did a 50% water change this would drop the hardness to 150 ppm almost immediately, For some species of fish and inverts a sudden change like this can be deadly. 

Now when your looking a daily dosing of say 40 ppm of some combination of chemicals in a week that means your adding 280 ppm more then you ended with the prior week. With a 50% water change your then dropping it to a 140 ppm before you start slowly raising it to 420 ppm. Sure over the week some chemicals your adding are used by the plants but unless they are being used up at the same rate you adding them you have big fluctuations. 

Every planted tank will use up more or less chemicals than another tank. But with 50% water changes you have drastic chemical changes unless your adding perfectly balanced water to the tank. My idea and practice is to do 20% water changes every third day. This would mean if the level of some chemical was at say 200 ppm after the change it would drop to 160 which is much less drastic change at one time than 50% change weekly.

Now if someone has the time what would be even more ideal is a daily 10% water change, especially if your doing a daily dosing system.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You can certainly justify using other fertilizing methods than the EI method, but you can't justify denying how well that method has worked for a very large number of people. Theory can never be more believable than results.

We all have right to use whatever method of fertilizing we want, and, for sure the method we prefer will work fine for many of us. That alone shows that fertilizing is a very inexact science in our planted aquariums. It is educational for all of us when people describe their success with whatever method they choose to use, so I hope everyone feels free to report their successes (and failures).


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

hoppycalif said:


> You can certainly justify using other fertilizing methods than the EI method, but you can't justify denying how well that method has worked for a very large number of people.


It has. But there are also quite a few people for whom it hasn't worked satisfactorily (like me). There are underlying variables, some which I think are still unknown, that make the difference. Lythraceae in particular are problematic in such cases. What can be said with a greater degree of certainty is that roots seems to be more selective in their uptake than leaves. You can just go to town with a rich substrate but fertilizing the water to a similar degree can be hit or miss.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

as hoppy asked, ill answer. I'm a proud supporter of the EI method, i use it for my all my high tech tanks currently except my dirted one. Used to use it to in my fluval scape, its a truly winning method imo.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Cavan Allen said:


> It has. But there are also quite a few people for whom it hasn't worked satisfactorily (like me). There are underlying variables, some which I think are still unknown, that make the difference. Lythraceae in particular are problematic in such cases. What can be said with a greater degree of certainty is that roots seems to be more selective in their uptake than leaves. You can just go to town with a rich substrate but fertilizing the water to a similar degree can be hit or miss.


Other methods have worked for many people, too. We are fortunate that this hobby has advanced enough for there to be several successful ways to maintain a planted aquarium. I think that if you don't use really high light, and stick to the easier plants, all of the methods are likely to work. I'm one of the people who do stick to less than high light, and use the easier plants.


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## Letsfish (Dec 18, 2017)

There are plenty of unknowns, for example, I have 2 planted tanks a 55-gallon and a 29-gallon and both use tap water and with both the water chemistry is a mirror image of each other as far as I can tell [API] test kits. They both get dosed with the same ferts twice a week at the same ratio.The only difference between the 2 is the growth rate of the plants in the 55 is much better than the 29.The 55 has T5 HO lights and the 29 has LED lights.The lighting schedule is the same in both tanks.Both tanks have easy to grow plants or at least they are supposed to be.BBA in the 29 has always been a problem there.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Letsfish said:


> There are plenty of unknowns, for example, I have 2 planted tanks a 55-gallon and a 29-gallon and both use tap water and with both the water chemistry is a mirror image of each other as far as I can tell [API] test kits. They both get dosed with the same ferts twice a week at the same ratio.The only difference between the 2 is the growth rate of the plants in the 55 is much better than the 29.The 55 has T5 HO lights and the 29 has LED lights.The lighting schedule is the same in both tanks.Both tanks have easy to grow plants or at least they are supposed to be.BBA in the 29 has always been a problem there.


When you have two tanks, with the same water, the same fertilizing, and similar plants, but one does well and the other doesn't, think first about the lighting. Yours have two different types of lighting, and very likely two different light intensities. It is also possible that the plants in the one that isn't doing as well aren't getting enough CO2 to meet their carbon needs. Not all plants have an equal need for CO2, so that can be a major cause of the difference or just a minor cause. A PAR meter would let you determine if you have nearly the same light intensity.


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## Letsfish (Dec 18, 2017)

Within the last week, I addressed the posible CO2 problem I set up a pressurized CO2 system.The LED is a Finnex 24/7 Planted +. I have tried the 24/7 mode without much success and now use the MAX mode 3 hours on 4 hours off and 3 hours on, the same pattern I use on the 55-gallon.I have never been able to get this light dialed in so I might just give up on it and get a T5 HO 6500K like the other tank.


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## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

14 years ago when I kept a high light 220w PC over 75 gallon heavily planted discus tank, the test kits were giving false reading. 

If I recall correctly, I was using Hagen test kits back then. I calibrated the test kits with tap water which comes out clear or very close to clear. We have RO type tap water coming out at 20 to 30 uS. I was feeding beef heart back then and tank water would test at 5+ ppm PO4 even after 90% water change and not adding any KH2PO4. The tank was still deficient in PO4. 

Test kits are not reliable when there is a heavy fish load and a lot of feeding. Aside from ammonia / ammonium, I find organic waste and nutrients are not readily available to plants.

If you are not using ADA soil, the pH in the tank will start to climb if there is no CO2 being added. nitrate base formula will raise the pH quite quickly.


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