# LED Experimental Tank (to be started later)



## fishman9809

i am going to set up a tank, approximately 10 gallons, same size as the ADA 45p (18" long x 10.5" wide x 12" tall). here is my basic design of the LED fixture:










the LED color is going to be 6000k, aka cold white. 125lm per led, 1w consumption per. to get the same luminous output of a 36w PC bulb, use 15-18w of led.

here is the LED i will be using 15 of:

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-Prolight-1W-H...9200907QQihZ016QQcategoryZ66954QQcmdZViewItem

i cant find a heat sink or a power source to accomadate 350mA LEDs and about 55volts of the LED's. if you have any recommendations for heat sinks (even the ones that hold a single LED) or power supplies, lemme know, because ive been looking all day

also, do i need a DC or AC power supply?

tell me what you think of the project!!!


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## Indignation

I've been wanting to try something similar for a while now, but haven't had the time or money to pull it off. I'll be keeping a close eye on your progress!

As for your questions, Your link didn't work for me, but i assume you're using the pro light 1w luxeon stars. Here would be a good place to check for heat sinks. I would just call and ask a rep what would work for you.

Also, have you thought about tossing a couple red and blue LEDs? After reading about light spectrum and what plants need to grow well, I thought a few of each might gear the spectrum more towards plant-usable light. I think the white leds would balance out the "look" of the light. This is pure speculation, but might be worth looking into.


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## fishman9809

i fizxed the link. i am only using white because the ebay store i am buying from only lets you get it in packs of 5, so i cant just get like 2 or 3 like i would prefer.

i hope to get the total of this project under $100, just to show people what you can do with leds.


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## Cory Keeper

100% whites are fine for your application. But sadly your on a lower light level than alot of plants like. A minimum of 1 LED per 24 square inches is a good starting point. Though your 5 LEDs would probably grow your plants really well, I think your plants should be limited to low light plants. Or up the number of LEDs.

BTW, heatsink looks good.

EDIT: NM, I just noticed what you posted.

IMO those are probably junk LEDs, 9 Cree XR-E Q5 of 9 Luxeon Rebel LEDs would be better. I do not trust anything but Cree or Lumileds Luxeons. Crees are pushing 100lm per watt where as those probably only about half.


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## fishman9809

it seems i never updated this thread. this experiment is going actually to go on a vivarium which i'll set up soon.


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## Cory Keeper

yeah, after reading over the E-bay page, something to really really avoid. They are advertising over 100lm per watt, something not even the best crees can match, and super cheap as well. Really not worth the risk. Just go with Crees or Luxeons.

But I rescind my previous suggestion of LEDs, 5 would be fine for a vivarium since light penetrates air better than water.


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## fishman9809

going back to aquarium

gonna get 5 leds from that ebay page, but 3w'ers, but cree xr-e q5's can put out over 200 lumens, so its believable to me.


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## Cory Keeper

yes, but look at the price of the crees.

Either A: they are overating the product OR B: they are using really really cheap materials, which means much less life in them. 

Also, as stated, not even crees get 125lm per watt, which is what those are stating.

And looking over it even more, I see 4 red flags. 

1: 125lm per watt, no LED made currently gets that kind of efficiency.

2: "Due to the low value and profit selling on ebay, we do not accept returns of any kind." . " You understand you are taking a risk by ordering." That right there is a red flag, should be ringing all kinds of bells. DO NOT BUY

3: Prolight does not make Luxeon LEDs, Lumileds does. Putting a trusted name on a fake product is common scam tactic.

4: I found some 3w LEDs listed using the same EXACT specs except for the current, 700mA. 

You can buy it, but don't be surprised if its not as bright as you think it is.


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## fishman9809

where does it say per watt?:

This is 5 pieces of White 3w LEDs mounted on stars.

Intensity: 110~125Lm
Viewing Angle: 120° 
Forward Voltage: 3.2V~3.5V
Forward Current: 700mA
Color Temperature: 6000k


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## Cory Keeper

The link you posted above says 1w LEDs, and the specs say 1w as well, 3.2vx350mA (.350)= 1.12w, a little over 1w. 

I still don't trust it too much.


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## fwdixon

It would be easier to set up using a DC power supply. AC could be used, but you would need a rectifier circuit, as LED require DC input.


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## Muirner

I'm looking on ebay right now for some High Powered LED's. I ran across a 10W LED here  ebay 

700lm is rated from this LED. With this in mind even with the higher cost of the LED, a 10G fixture wouldnt be unheard of in cost... or are these LED's advertising what cannot be achieved?


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## Cory Keeper

Its possible, it looks to be a high power LED, but its difficult to say its any good. For one, "white" could be any color spectrum, second, dunno who makes the thing so its hard to know if anyone else has had trouble with them.

For your standard 10g tank, 9 LEDs would be perfect, should give you tons of growth without any trouble at all.


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## Qwertus

What about these?
http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-rebel-led-cool-white-lambertian-130-lm-700ma-p-165.php


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## Cory Keeper

yeah, those are fine, but if you order them, you will find they are not pre-mounted onto the stars, and soldering them on takes a special technique, a technique I am going to have to learn from the looks of it  .


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## Qwertus

Those take way less space and cost a bit less than the ones your using too because it doesn't come with stars. Those stars are sort of like heat sinks i think. I just finish modding the psu into ~3v, ~5v and ~12v; the current on those lines are a bit high though.

I also have a few LEDs with these specs, are they any good?

Lens Colour : Water Clear 
Emitting Colour: White Color 
Intensity Typ : 110~120Lm 
Viewing Angle: 120° 
Forward Voltage : 3.3V~3.5V 
Forward Current: 700mA
Colour temperature :6000k


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## Cory Keeper

I dunno about less space, unless you have experience in building/designing a circuit board, mounted to a heat sink.

And really, all thats need is 12v lines, current is regulated with drivers, either with DIY http://www.instructables.com/id/EK2XAPS11GEWOF2YSD/ or through something like a buck puck.

But yes, even if you mounted them yourself to a star, they could cost less than pre-mounted, just be forewarned that it can be tricky. Best method that I know is to melt a bit of solder on all three pads using a 15w soldering iron, then with heat gun (electric or butane, doesn't matter), apply heat to the underside of the star/base until solder on the led melts, with heat still applied, make sure LED is mounted correctly. Remove heat when satisfied, or before too much heat is applied and fries the LED. Check for continuity between positive and negative. If continuity exists, heat back up and move LED a little, repeat process.

Oh, one other thing, I wouldn't be worried too much about heat, some will actually BAKE the LED to get it soldered in there.

And Qwertus, depending on the costs of the LED, I would say it should work. To give you an idea, my 29g has 15 Rebels which emit 145 lumens @700mA. Color temp I don't think is near as important with LEDs as people make it out to be though.


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## Qwertus

What did you use as heatsinks on the LEDs and those NFET transistors? How many of those LED drivers did you have to make for all your HP LEDs? Any techniques for building something that I can mount regular 10mm LEDs on to the board but still can remove/switch them without soldering?(sort of like a bread board). I'm not sure if i will like the colors that why, just need an easy way of changing them if i dont like or get bored of one color.

I was thinking of superglue them on the circuit board then put thermal gel in the holes that have direct contact with the LEDs then mount the heatsinks directly on top. The reason for the board is because I have a few other 10mm LED circuits as moon lights (Blues) and Greens or Yellows for viewing. Viewing lights turn on and off by a clapper I did as a school project a long while back.


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## Qwertus

Does anyone know if LED drivers work with several parallel arrays? Or Does each array need its own driver?


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## Cory Keeper

Each string will need its own driver. And there really is no way to easily exchange LEDs without a bread board. And frankly speaking, if your wanting to play with the colors for your normal viewing, you will still want to use HP, they will last far longer. If you go with the Luxeon Rebels, they are fairly easy to solder. All you would need is a little bit of solder, some tweezers, a butane hot air soldering pencil (remove tip) and a set of Helping Hands (to hold the hot star). Its a bit tricky playing with SMD LEDs but its quite easy once you know how. I've also heard of the skillet method and baking method.


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## mcjosh13

This is an idea that I have been toying with for a while myself. I have done many projects with these leds lately and have a pretty good knowledge of what it should take to make a system like this. First of all the best leds are Cree (Bins Q-3 OR Higher) Seoul (U bin) or luxeon rebels mounted on stars. If you run these at 700mA you should be getting around 200 lumens from each of them.

Here are a few Chinese websites that have the best prices that you can find, but shipping usually takes 2 weeks and a few people people have claimed that the leds have a cooler color bin then listed (like cool white instead of pure white) (I personally have never had any problems with them though.)

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445 -Seoul P4 U bin stars SWO color temp (pure white) $4.13ea when buying 5+ (free shipping)

http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=1637

Here is a more reliable link for seoul p4 stars

http://photonfanatic.com/componentsFS.html

You will end up paying about twice as much but shipping is fast, and you have a choice of color temperatures (warm, cool, or neutral) and you will definitely get the color temp you order.

Get a 12v or 24v power supply from ebay. You can control the current with the circuit listed previously but I have always just used simple resistors to limit the current. Here is a resistor calculator

http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz

You can find big 5 and 10 watt resistors on ebay for dirt cheap.

Additionally you may need to use led optics to focus the led light into the tank instead of having it spill out the sides. The led light system Solaris uses 40 degree optics on their system. These can be found for $5 or less a piece.

Use Arctic Silver Epoxy to bond your led stars to your aluminum heat sink


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## Qwertus

I think the modded version of the PSU is a lot more reliable and cheaper than those adaptors sold on ebay.

How can you be sure that they emit 200lm? I cant find stats on those anywhere.


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## Cory Keeper

The best Crees will emit approx 200 lm, the best Rebel I've seen runs 180lm, but is $8 for just the emitter. 

But I have issues with resistors and buck pucks so. Yes resistor will work, and yes, they are cheap, but don't regulate current. I've also had issues getting the LEDs to run above 500mA with resistors as well. 

You can still build a regulator circuit for about $3 a circuit, which will be cheap. 

depending on the depth of the tank, optics won't be needed either. In most aquariums you can get by without them. 

And I do not suggest epoxy, that is permanent, and if you damage the star, there is no fixing it. And if you ever want to change things around, there is no doing that either. Better method is to tap out #4x40 holes in the heatsink, and attach the star to the HS with screws. Don't forget the thermal compound (I suggest Arctic Silver 5, the non-epoxy version, for CPU heatsinks)


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## mcjosh13

The best Crees and Seouls both emit around 200lm @700 mA. One of the main advantages of using leds vs florescent lights is that you can use optics to focus the light into the tank and get much better penetration similar to a Metal Halide set-up. I'm sure you can get away with not using optics if the tank is not too deep but you will be losing a lot more light out the sides. 

Also if not using optics I think you would have to use the Cree leds as they emit light at a 90 degree angle where as the Seouls and Rebels emit at a 130 degree angle and would result in much greater loss out the sides of the aquarium.

Don't even think about messing with Rebel emitters unless you are good at home reflow soldering. These things are tiny and very few can successfully solder these things to a star at home.


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## Cory Keeper

Josh, that last statement is just WRONG. Yes reflow soldering is a little tricky, but its alot easier than you thing. I soldered one last night, first time ever that I messed with reflow soldering, went without a hitch. Yes you will have to be careful when messing with them (nearly lost the emitter, heh) but anyone with half a brain can do it.

Also, you don't have to use crees, I'm using a mere 15 rebels over my 29g, no optics, plants are growing pretty well. Yes, I could use optics and get even better light, but its still good.


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## mcjosh13

What color temp rebels are you using (cool, neutral, warm?) and how does the tank look visually vs when you were using florescents. Would you say that the colors in your plants and fish are as vibrant as they used to be?


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## Qwertus

Does a regulator works as the LED driver? I'm thinking of using one similar to the LM317. Do you guys have experience with those? Still deciding wether or not i should get those LEDs that aren't attached to a star.

@Cory: Can you send me info on where you got the parts for LED drivers and which type did you make? What did you use as heatsinks?


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## Cory Keeper

@Josh. I used the cool whites, gives a nice clean look. Tank looks good but the greens don't pop the way they did under CFLs. The reason is that CFLs load up on the green, and I think that drives algae (only other explanation that I can think of). I'm thinking of adding a few blues and greens to my stars, just for honing in the color. I'd say that the color does take some getting used to, but can be offset with a few RGBs to your choosing. Another thing to keep in mind is that CFLS and PCs are more geared toward lumen output. LED operates on a completely different technology and as such, offers the same amout of lumens, but PAR is crazy. I read one guy had 600+ PAR @12" depth with his LED setup, no I'm not kidding.

@Qwertus. Yes, a regulator works like an LED driver. I've heard about people using the LM317, but there is a better driver circuit http://www.instructables.com/id/EK2XAPS11GEWOF2YSD/ That is what I'm currently using, and I prefer it over the LM317.

For heatsinks, I used these http://www.surplussales.com/Heatsinks/HeatSink6.html but a better choice would be this http://www.heatsinkusa.com/

BTW, the advantages Qwertus to buying the emitters and stars yourself is that you can add in colors that you want to pop out, such as red, green or blue.


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## Qwertus

Im thinking of not using those stars at all; just mount them onto circuit board then use the thermal gel in the holes to conduct heat to the heatsinks attached.

In which way is that circuit better than a regulator? (Im sorta confused) What did you use for Q2 in that circuit?


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## m-jackson

This guy seems to have a fairly good web page with links to other on brite leds do not know if you are interested but ran across it while check lumens per watt for leds

http://members.misty.com/don/light.html

He list suppliers which if not else might prove useful


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## Cory Keeper

Stars are kind of required to help deal with heat, you will find that you will have a very difficult time soldering wires to the LEDs as well. Trust me, a star will make things far far easier.

Aslo, the above circuit only drops .5v instead of about 2v+ that the LM317 will. It will also produce less heat as well.


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## mcjosh13

Muirner, if you want to play with some wicked bright leds check this Led out. Seoul SSC P7 800-900 true lumens from one of the top led companies.

d-bin 800-900 lumens @ 2.8A 
c-bin 700-800 lumens @ 2.8A

Vf I bin=3.25v ~ 3.5v
J bin= 3.5v ~ 3.75v
From $21-$30 ea depending on where you get it

http://www.amilite.co.kr/product.asp?gc=827
http://photonfanatic.com/componentsFS.html
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=183633

Or check out Cree MC-E which has similar output

It wouldn't take very many of these to light a small tank


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## colinsk

Hi, I am new here, how many lumens/gallon would be considered Low light? Medium Light? and Strong Light?


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## mcjosh13

Colinsk, this is something that is still being determined with LED lighting. Cory Keeper claims to be getting good growth on his 29g with about 2,175 lumens, without any focusing optics, from 15 luxeon rebels (this would be 75 lumens/gal.)

Luxeon Rebel's and Seoul SSC P4's and P7's emit light at wide angles (120-130 degrees) and Cree's emit light at a slightly narrower 90 degree angle. The wider the angle the more light will be scattered out of the aquarium and the less light will reach the mid and lower areas of the aquarium.

Most commercial aquarium LED fixtures use 40-50 degree optics to focus the light into the tank. This results in much higher PAR levels especially towards the bottom of the tank so with focusing optics less lumens will be required (these optics are readily available from between $3 and $5 ea.)

The article below compares the Aqua Illumination LED fixture to a 250 watt metal halide lamp. The LED fixture uses 32 Seoul SSC P4 LEDs with 40 degree optics running at 1000mA. The conclusion is that the LED fixture results in comparable or higher PAR readings as the 250 watt metal halide lamp.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/10/review

It can be hard to draw a direct comparison from that fixture but it should offer a good starting point. If you assume that the LEDs are averaging around 210 lumens each (about what Seoul P4's U-bins were producing a year ago @1000ma) then that equals 6,720 Lumens.

So 6,720 Lumens LED light w/40 degree optics = 250 watts of Metal Halide lighting.? It's a start and you can extrapolate from there.


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## colinsk

mcjosh13 said:


> So 6,720 Lumens LED light w/40 degree optics = 250 watts of Metal Halide lighting.? It's a start and you can extrapolate from there.


So, it is about twice as efficient? 120 watts of LED focused well equals 250 watts of halide?

Thet would be a nice reduction of heat load in the tank on a summer day.


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## mcjosh13

Actually, now that I re-read the article it seems that only 24 of the 32 LEDs are on during the day and the remaining 8 LEDs are reserved for moon-light use only. This is why the fixture uses only 88 Watts during day mode. Also 6 of these watts are being used to power the cooling fans so really 82 watts of focused LED light equals 250 watt Metal Halide in this case.
This would mean roughly 5,040 LED lumens w/40 degree optics = 250watt Metal Halide lamp

The reason the led fixture gives such a higher PAR value is because of 2 reasons.
1. PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is the amount of light within the 400nm-700nm range. White and blue (and red and green) LEDs produce almost all of their light inside this range. Metal Halides produce lots of light outside of this range as ultraviolet and infrared light. 
2. LEDs are more efficient then Metal Halides and produce more light per watt.

The problem with using LED watts to equate to Metal Halide watts is that LEDs are constantly becoming more efficient so this number will continue to become more favorable towards LEDs.

The problem of using Lumens to equate LEDs to Metal Halides is that lumens are adjusted for how sensitive the human eye is to the specific color spectrum the LEDs are emitting. This is why blue LEDs have very low lumen ratings but actually can be putting out more light then a white LED with a much higher lumen rating. The human eye is very insensitive to blue light. Plants don't care about lumens they care about PAR values. The problem is that LEDs are rated in LUMENS not PAR values so we will have to use the number of lumens an LED outputs as a basis to figure out how many will be needed.

Still for our purposes I think this is a good starting point and further experimentation will help us fine tune exactly what is needed. 

Anecdotal evidence from the few people who have used LEDs for planted aquariums (like Corry Keeper) seems to be inline with the aforementioned Lumen value so a good starting off guideline should be: 

1. Around 61 white LED lumens/gal w/40 degree optics should support good plant growth similar to 2.5-3 WPG rule

2. Around 80 white LED lumens/gal without optics should support similar growth to above if the tank is not too deep. Also if not using optics, LEDs with more narrow radiation patterns (like Crees) will offer significantly better performance then those with wider radiation patterns like Seoul's and Luxeon's.

Additional Notes:

You may want to add in 1 or 2 red LEDs depending on tank size to make up for white LED's traditional weak output in the red end of the spectrum.

This entire guideline is based on conjecture and more experimenting and measurements will be needed before any of it can be proven


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## felis

According to SSC web-site, P4 are made with wide and narrow-beam lenses, wide being p/n W42180, narrow W47180. I think 72deg. narrow beam would work better for aquarium.


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## Cocobid

For what it is worth take a look at this site. http://www.superbrightleds.com/other_bulbs.htm

I am totally fascinated with LED and their future in Aquarium Lighting. With adding color Red or Blue some smarties here like yourself can figure out the proper colors for Planted Tanks. Good Luck and keep us posted.


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## Eugene

I had seen 5-gallon (20 L) tank in the shop with led lighter. I looked carefully (as was also interested in led lamp for nano, was thinking about the standard screw lamp with leds, like that, but still have no desision):










But supposed that it's not bright enough. In the tank lighter there were lot of cheap, wery simple white leds as in the pocket lighter. But each had small reflector, as here:









_it is 18-led lighter, white light, 530 lumen_

It seemed that the light even of these lighter can be enough for average plants in not deep water.
_But the price for 20l tank with such light was not interesting - in dollars - about 170 (for-five more than for tank of the same size)._


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## diy

Hi, 

Don't mean to hijack this thread but, I have a few questions for you LED guys. I am building a algae scrubber(algae garden) for my saltwater aquarium and I want to do high power LED's for the light source. The area needed to be lit is 12"X12". The led will be 1" away from the scrubber.

I want to go with Luxeon Rebels, I'm just not sure of how many of what color, RED or BLUE, or WHITE. any advice would be great.

Thanks


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## felis

A quick look at the datasheet shows that white LED have largest luminous output. They are also most expensive. You need to compare prices/lumens and see which color gives you the cheapest lumen.


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## mcjosh13

Luminous flux is a measure of how bright a light LOOKS to the human eye which has a peak sensitivity around the green area of the spectrum. Photosynthetic organisms do not care about this measurement as they are largely insensitive to green light and grow in response to blue and red light.


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## Cory Keeper

Sorry I've been gone, But regarding how many LEDs you need for a tank, a good rule of thumb I've devised is for low-medium light, 1 LED per 24 square inches of surface area of the tank. I.E. my 29g has 15 LEDs over with the top having a surface area of 360 square inches. Higher light would be in the 1:18^2" or for insane light 1:12^2" ratio.

Do not attempt to use Lumens as a rule of thumb, as LEDs get better at emitting light, keep in mind PAR levels may or may not jump.


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## ElectricFishMan

I looked at doing this and decided I'd better wait until two things happened: I had more free time, and high intensity tricolor LED's came down in price a little bit more.

I'll post my concept here so someone can take some inspiration from it:

I wanted to develop a programatically dimmable fixture. There are two ways to dim an LED, either reduce the current from your driver (you'll get mixed results as the forward voltage curve for LED's vary greatly even if they're off the same wafer) or use a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) power supply. My design opts for the second, and more easily realizable PWM setup. PWM relies on the fact that the human eye (and I'm assuming fish are similar here, any help on this would be appreciated) doesn't detect light changes at a rate of higher than about 30 cycles per second. Instead the eye averages it. That's the same principal that your television takes advantage of (try snapping a photo of your tv screen with a regular 35mm camera). By adjusting the amount of on and off time during each cycle you can adjust the overall light intensity.

I like the idea of using tri-color LED's, especially if PWM is being used. With tri-color LED's you can not only make your tank glow white, but any color you want by varying the intensity of the Red, Blue, and Green LED's. Can anyone say mood lighting?

And for the real over-achievers out there: PWM can be easily set up with a $3 microcontroller (I like the PIC micro's personally). They also provide code for maintaining a real time clock and doing basic math calculations. If you really want to have some fun, it's feasible to create a daylight calculation and vary the intensity to mirror a normal sunrise, day, sunset, night cycle for an arbitrary latitude. For the night cycle PWM can turn off the lights, or better yet, dim their intensity according to the lunar cycle.


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## longbowaj

I'm torn between adding a lot to this conversation or keeping quite. I have worked on the mood lighting systems for Boeing (777, 787, 747-8). I know how they work fairly well and I will say they are very complicated, but most of the ideas could easily be applied here. ElectricFishMan has the right idea with the PWM but like I said this could get very complicated fast depending on how detailed you start writing your algorithms.

I would like to add one thing right away though. Don't believe much of what you see on LED spec sheets. All the suppliers are notorious for lying about what the outputs are. This is going to make it very difficult to really be scientific with using LEDs in aquarium lighting unless you have a light lab to take your own measurements.


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## Bizarroterl

For a algae scrubber you could use this:
http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=263
or you could use as part of your overhead lighting (plant specific).

For general tank lighting this looks good:
http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=370

More DIY is this one:
http://homegrownlights.com/14wled.html
It's less expensive, claims less watts, but has more LEDs.

None of the above are dimmable.

Homegrownlights.com has a 50watt panel that is DC and would require a power supply. It is dimmable with the right power supply and control.


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## Supercoley1

Hello. I've just read through this and see there a few doubters out there and a few people giving advice that seems strange to me. I would however add that I am no electrician so all these people 'know' more than me  Any advice given below is what I was told whilst making mine. I had never soldered anything let alone understand electrics so I was guided through mine by several interested electrical people 

I have just made a luminaire using 15 x 3W 'Luxeons'

Firstly the ebay seller selling 'white' Luxeons is selling 5500K LEDs they seem to be copies as some have Lumileds branded on them whereas others don't however I can say they are in the main pretty good. 5 for £10 is worth it even if only 2 thirds are a good match lightwise.

Secondly I wouldn't use lenses/collimators on these. They are lambertian dies and therefore give a good light spread at a 120º angle. When used with lenses/ collimators they give a point focus which doesn't look that good. I assume this is why the 'retail' luminaires are slated by reef keepers in comparison to MH!!!

'Batwing' dies would be good for our setups without collimators/lenses also but not side emitters for obvious reasons.

I'm not a fan of the Lumens per square inch calculations nor the WPG rule. You can't really use this on LEDs anyway. Much better is to see what is out there see what their setups look like gauge their opinions and observations on growth.

These LEDS (3W) get awesomely hot. They need proper heatsinking or they will fry. I also have fans on mine to help alleviate the heat.

You must use current controllers and not resistors and not just assume a 12V regulated supply is supplying 12V. The V allowances of these is very limited (3.4-3.7 or similar) and therefore any surge etc will fry them. I was also told to always wire high power LEDs in series.

From my observations the initial posters comments on 18W high power LED being equal to 36W of PC are not far off the mark. I would go aas far as to say that the plants under my setup (running at 42W) is growing much much faster than it was under 48W of T5HO. I would say they are probably 1.25 - 1.5x better than the T5HO was!!!! CFs are nowhere near T5HO IMO (and experience!!!)

So a little look at my setup. I can answer some questions as long as they are in non electrician's English 

The setup as I said before is using 15 x 'Luxeon' 3W 5500K stars. There are 5 series of 3. Each is run by it's own current controller. Each series is powered by a seperate '12V 700ma+ regulated adaptor'.

This can be done by using 1 power source of course and computer with electrical knowledge but I wanted a sunrise/sunset and with my abilities I went for this option as then I can put each adaptor into a timer.

Therefore I have in effect got 5 seperate LED setups within the 1 luminaire.

Each Star has a computer memory chip stuck to its rear with thermal tape. These are too small to be used as heatsinking on their own so the LED/heatsink combo is then attached to cut up pieces of an old hollow reflector I had handy. Not for reflection more to use the extra metal for drawing more heat out.

Each LED unit complete with heatsinking is then attached to a board and wired in series from front to back (5 rows from left to right.) then each series is attached to it's own current controller. The particular current controllers I got says they are for 7V to 24V. It uses 1.5V for itself leaving 10.5V for the series (3.5V each.) There are then 4 x 50mm PC fans blowing in from the left and 4 more 'sucking' on the right. These are all underpowered running from a single 12V 300ma source and therefore are quiet (almost silent unlike our PCs) Then the whole unit has a pane of glass sealing the bottom so the airflow doesn't go downward and travel from entry fans to exit fans  They also run 15 minutes and 15 minutes after any lights. the former to dry any little moisture that may be in the unit and the latter to cool down the LEDs at the end.

These LEDs are 3.7max and therefore I am very slightly underpowering them at 3.5V (10.5V/3 Leds) which by a sloppy calculation that will not be accurate I say they are each running at 2.8W and not 3W. This of course will not be exact but is good enough for my purposes.

So there we have it 5 series. Each series running at '8.4W'. Total '42W' over a 33USG tank. Easily brighter than 48W T5HO. The T5HO was at 4-5" from the water surface. I have had to raise these LEDs up to 13" above the water surface so they don't wash the colour out of the top of the tank (meaning you can't see the colour in the top third due to the intensity of light near the surface.)

I then made a simple single series for a 10 Litre Nano using the same LEDs from the same supplier, same current controller but used the recommended heatinks and 30º collimator/lenses.

This picture show an individual LED with the mini heatsink on the rear, the piece of reflector used as extra heatsinking and then the whole lot screwed down to the board.









Here is the whole board. looks messy but this tape came off after siliconing all the wires down to stop movement when it was turned upside down









Here is the board from above showing in red 1 series:









The board complete with Cold Cathode 'moonlight' all lit up:









The luminaire ready to hang up.









Gotta go and moderate somewhere now so let me know if you want me to carry on and I will try and get some more pics on tonight for you to see.

AC


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## andyh

Your setup looks great! 

It appears to me that you have 15 X Luxeon 3W, running at 3.5V and 700ma. My calculations say that you're running the Luxeons at 2.45W - a little lower than your calculations, but maybe I'm missing something. If you have 15 of them, my calculations say that you have 36.75W of LED'a over a 33g tank, right? Since you feel PC and LED wattages are not comparable (and I think I agree from my early tests), let's call your 36.75W of light 36.75 "LEDW". So, you have 36.75 LEDW over 33g, or 1.11 LEDW/g. If I had the dimensions of your tank, I'd do a LEDW/SqIn calculation also - for those that like that surface area calculation better.

I'm going to be running 60 X Cree XR-E, and running them at 3.7V and 1000ma. That comes out to 3.7 LEDW, which is as far as they can be pushed while staying in the manufacturer's specifications. I will be running that over a 135g tank, which means that I'll be at 222 LEDW over 135g, or 1.64 LEDW/g. Since my 135g tank is 72 X 18 X 24, I have 1296 sq in of surface area. That makes .17 LEDW/SqIn of surface area. I know that Lumens and PAR and all that are as important or more important than the above, but when you're trying to figure out a rough estimate of how many LED's you'd need to make your planted tank work, this seems like a good rule-of-thumb for estimation.

What I'm getting at is this question: "why don't we start (maybe in yet another thread) a list of plants that will grow well at certain LEDW/g or LEDW/SqIn?" That way a person considering LED lighting would know how many LED's they're going to need to successfully grow the plants they want to grow. I'll help to populate the list (I'm still prototyping as most of my LED's are still in the mail from Hong Kong). 

Maybe the right calculation is "LED Lumens per gallon" (LEDL/g) or "LED Lumens per Sq In of surface area" (LEDL/SqIn) - time will tell. 

Opinions? (all experienced opinions welcome)

Now for a personal experience question: CoryKeeper (who seems to have experience) feels that my 60 X 3W Crees will supply a "good medium amount of light" over 135g. That's 48% more LEDW/g than you have (although that's probably a bit high as efficiency falls off the harder you drive the LED's), and you say that your plants are thriving. He seems to favor a Surface Area calculation. What is your opinion (from your experiences) about 60 X 3.7W Crees over 135g and 1296 SqIn of surface area? I'm looking for enough light to grow my favorite Ludwigia Cuba, which doesn't seem to keep it's red coloration without plenty of light and CO2. See why I'd like to know in advance if I'm buying enough LED's? Let's help others that would like to estimate their costs and lighting by giving them a way to figure out what they need with a bit of confidence!

PS: I agree with the "awesomely hot" comment about LED's at (and above) the 3W line. I'm experimenting with water-cooling and tank heating (see other threads) with the heat. They may not be as hot as MH lights, but they are hot enough to really need to work on it.


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## Supercoley1

I will put the pics up later but a quick(ish) reply to your post

I have no idea what wattage they run on. You can do the calc for me so I know 

These are supposed tobe 3.4V to 3.7V and I am running them at 3.5V.

I think they are growing 25% faster than the previous fluoros (which were 30W T5HO, 18W T8.) this is judged by my needle ferns which I had to prune to see light on the substrate before. I am now pruning weekly and heavily at that.

Therefore if you say I am running at 1.1WPG on LED and I was on 1.45WPG of fluoro yet I have more growth then that seems to answer one question although of course you have to take my word on the growth 

I did a test with some Rotala Macrandra in the tank under the T5HO alone a few months back and it kept a peachy red colour under 0.9WPG T5HO. Therefore I would assume I could grow it under these LEDs. I will test again when I rescape and have some room for the test again:

















This will stir up some haters for me but I don't like PC/CF over tanks. I prefer to spread the light than have a huge intensity stuck in one area. I would take T8s over CF for this reason. T5HO are much much brighter than T8s. LEDs are proving to be even higher 

the tank is a standard 125Ltr Tall. I think it is 800 x 345 x 450 (mm)

I'm not really in favour of another rule just as much as I hate the WPG rule. Lighting causes more disagreement than any other subject to the point of confrontation sometimes as people try and use science and power to equate to plants and nobody knows for sure how much light even in PAR certain plants need. It would just be another WPG rule for people who like the Lumens per sq inch calcs and it all gets a little bit silly really.

I would suggest that we know that we can dose EI and ferts are then non limited. We know we can reach 30ppm and maintaining it means that CO2 is non limited. With me believing that CO2 is the key to all these 'highlight' plants growing then I am assuming there is a level of light where you can grow anything and if the ferts and CO2 are maintained at a non limited level then success.

Now my assumption is not based on science, it is not based on proven fact and I have no PAR meter nor scientific knowledge in the least to say that my theories are true so please take them as that. They are theories from my own observations and assumptions.

I think that if you have 2 T5HO (say 1.5-2WPG) over an 'average' tank (under 2ft) and put them a third from the front and a third from the back then they will grow plants better than 3 T5HO all grouped together in the centre even though the 3 is more 'lumens' than the 2!! Good spread is what I want to achieve.

Once that good spread is achieved and the light is good enough (1.5 - 2WPG T5HO) then you have a decent level of light to achieve your HC carpet or luminescent red plants as long as you keep the CO2 high AND get it down to your carpet and red plants. Adding more light may get plants to grow faster but it won't make them redder or carpet HC to a mm of the substrate  It also means you have to work harder to maintain high CO2!!!

This is why I hate all these rules. Mainly because you create a rule and someone disagrees with it and then I come in and contradict your rule and then they disagree with me and then noone reading knows what to calculate anything on. lol

Anyway I think if you are after high light over a large tank like yours I would be aiming for in the region of 200W of LED maximum dependent on how high you are suspending it (I am however judging this on observations of my LEDs/drivers/input voltages etc) which may differ from yours 

The Lumens of these Luxeon III 3W lambertians 5500K @ 700ma are apparently 80 lumens if that is any help to you  Differs per colour die though remember that. The blues are 30lumens 

AC


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## andyh

While it's not exactly right, watts and "va" are used interchangeably at reasonably low power - so a rough "wattage" (actually "va") for your LED's is 3.5V X 700ma (which is .7 amps), or 2.45 watts.
At 3.7V and 1000ma, my Cree's are specified at 228 lumen max (Q5 bin).

I agree with you about "too many rules", but I see time and again on this forum and others that people want to consider LED's, but just can't get an estimate as to how many LED's and expense they would be committing to. I'm not looking for another "rule" - I'm looking for an estimation method that says "if I want to grow this plant in my 29/55/90/135/200g tank and I have/don't have CO2, other people have succeeded at ??? watts of LED's". I have seen people think that a half dozen 5mm junk LED's at 20 cents each are going to do the job, and others that believe that the $4,000 Solaris units aren't enough.

I'd just like to help others get a reasonable quick guess at what took me countless hours over 5 months to figure out.


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## Supercoley1

I'm puzzled at the calculation now so I dug up the datasheet from Philips rather than go by the vendor's info.

It says the minimum is 3.03V and maximum 4.47

I assumed that with these supposedly being 700ma LEDs that that was the max that they would draw but the datasheet gives info for 700ma and 1000ma for the whites!! 1400ma is only for the reddish ones.

Therefore I am now confused. the adaptors I am using are all 12V but they are 800, 800, 900, 1000 & 1400. Therefore are they drawing 700ma or more?

I'm lost here.

I see what you mean about the quick basic guide but this argument is still raging on r.e. T5HO being better than T8 and CF etc (IMO T5HO is as much as double the useable light with a decent reflector than T8 ) so we would be no closer.

I normally suggest to people if you want to carpet in a tank under 2ft tall then go for 2.5WPG T8/1.5WPG T5HO. I would guess LED 1.25WPG. Non CO2 then 1.5WPG T8/1WPG T5HO. so here we are at 0.75WPG LED!!! That would cause some rumbles.

There is a huge divide in the practises and therefore suggestions of US aquascapers compared to European scapers.

In Europe the WPG used seems to be coming down as more use T5HO. In the US CF is the most popular yet people still seem to be pushing in 4,5,6WPG on normal sized tanks. Of course a newcomer searching for info gets the US info because most of the hobby on the net is US based. It is later on second tanks or 'downgrades' that our side of the pond tend to go lower.

Newbies all rush in with highlight because their research is telling them that they need it and then when a European suggests lower it is counteracted by a US saying the european is wrong. 

So I would prefer on this forum to leave this subject well alone for a while yet however I will be doing an article on my LED setup and my beliefs on lighting in general in the near future on ASW but it will not offer any rules. Will not offere any science just my thoughts as I think that the majority of scapers just want 'enough' light not more than enough or too little and it is this range that needs defining.

Thats not to say that I think people are going to believe, trust, understand what I am saying nor do I mean that it is true and the world is wrong but it will just detail my thoughts on the subject.

The actual range should really be done by someone with more 'facility' than myself with 1 tank, limited scientific knowledge, virtually zero electrical understanding and incredibly limited finances. In other words by someone with an open mind who has a fair few tanks, access to different lighting and the 'grey matter' to digest and understand the results they see  Also they need to list the tubes and equipment they use as tubes, ballasts, etc all differ from brand to brand etc

AC


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## andyh

You're not lost, Supercoley1 - you're just getting tumbled around by conflicting vendor info. While I'm by no means an expert on LED vendor sheets, I have figured a few things out:

(1) *Claims about different MA settings*: if you're trying to make people believe that LED's are incredibly efficient in sipping electricity instead of guzzling it, use a lower MA level than the maximum. LED's have a maximum efficiency (lumens per watt) at a MA rating lower than the maximum that they can safely handle. Above a certain point, you get less additional light per additional MA, which translates into lower efficiency. Heat generation also rises as the additional electricity that isn't turned into light is turned into heat. Your Luxeons are probably pretty efficient near the 700ma point with good light output. The top production power LED's are around 90-100 lumens per watt somewhere on their efficiency curve, but that is almost never at their maximum MA rating. In the lab, Cree set a record in late 2008 with 161 lumens-per-watt on a *********** LED - but there is nothing like that in the production marketplace today (early 2009). BTW, the LED maximum efficiency was at 350ma. If you want maximum light (highest lumens), look for the maximum specified MA, but fully expect to have lower efficiency and way more heat. An analogy: Your car may be able to go 150 miles an hour, and it may be able to get 25 miles per gallon, but you won't get 25mpg at 150mph.

(2) *Vendor Claims*: Hahahaha. If the royalty of LED's (Cree, Phiilips (Luxeon/Lumileds), Seoul Semi(SSC)) is sometimes accused of exaggeration, then the Ebay junk and chinese poorly manufactured knockoffs go to new heights. I saw one claim on a site that actually violated the laws of physics! They were claiming more energy out of the chip (in light) than actually entered the chip.

Don't give up on reading the spec sheets - just realize that different claims are for different reasons.


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## Supercoley1

Some pictures then. Please take note that these were taken with a compact and even though I set the white balance for daywhite flourescent it still adjusts for the light available so it makes the darker shots look brighter and vice versa. Therefore it equalises the look of the brightness a little.

Firstly to use lense/collimators or not?

Here is a shot of the 30º lense fitted onto a star. they are pushfit style. Quite cool really. solved the mounting issues for the Nano 'luminaire'









This is the star on the recommended heatsinks (BIG.) They have thermal compound paste (for PC processors) between them and then superglued around the edge to stop them sliding off:









The lenses are mounted above some holes I have 'cut' in my little DIY luminaire. They are glued into position and then I have sealed around the edges, then a view from below:

















then the LED,heatsink combos are just 'pushed' onto the lenses.









So there we have a completed mini luminaire. series of 3 and the same format as the main luminaire except these have 30ºlense/collimators on them whereas the main unit has non and therefore 120º spread. For the test I used the same 900ma 12V adaptor 

This is how the mini luminaire looks when positioned over my main tank (1 series of 3 with lense/collimators)









Now I remove the mini luminaire and lower the main luminaire so the LEDs are the same height above the water. then I just turned on 1 series (1 series of 3 w/out lense/collimators)








Yes that is 3 LEDs @ 18" above the substrate and if the calculations by Andy are right this is just 7.35W!!!!

Which do you think is best? I think the w/out that give the spread.

this is how the luminaire looks over my 10Ltr Nano though and for this (which is a fry tank) it works out OK:









Will continue the photos in next post...............

AC


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## Supercoley1

Here we go more pictures but just to show you the sequence and brightness. My room light is on for these pictures so that you can gauge how they compare with the room lighting.

As said before though you can see from the colour of the flooring and surroundings the camera is adjusting for the brightness so not really reliable for real comparisons..

Sequence from nothing through to all series lit - Look at the chair legs behind:

















































Pictures of the tank next post..........

AC


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## Supercoley1

Again we have the problem of the camera equalising the brightness available but it gives an idea:

Pictures from moonlight to midday  WATCH THE WATER'S SURFACE TO SEE WHERE THE LIGHT IS COMING FROM

















































And that's about it really.They have been setup now for 3 weeks. No faults yet and no problems.

AC


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## andyh

It looks great - I personally like the ones without the lenses, even though that means some loss out of the sides of the tank glass. I'm going to try mine without lenses, but Cree's are a touch narrower naturally than Luxeons (90 degrees instead of 120). It's so hard to get over that being a little over 7 watts!


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## evilc66

I don't recall seeing what driver you intended on using for this (sorry if I missed it). Getting one that is dimmable will save a lot of headaches from the array being too powerful. Too much light? Lower the current and brightness.

Using lumens/gallon as a guide might be a little flawed, but close than using watts/gallon. The reason I say this is that the PAR output from a white LED can change with the color temperature. If you take a look at the datasheets for the LEDs, you can see the spectral curves for the white LEDs. As the color gets warmer, the amount of red output increases. This will also increase the PAR levels. Another thing to notice is that the lumen output of warmer color LEDs will be lower than cooler white LEDs, but the relative intensity of the red spectrum increases.

On the topic of the Solaris fixtures, one of the reasons that the Solaris got a bad rap in the beginning was because of a lack of education. Many claimed that the reason corals/plants were dying was because of a lack of PAR, based on the observation that the visible brightness was low compared to other light sources. Turns out the oposite was true. LEDs can attain high PAR with low lumen output. This is something that is finally coming to light (sorry for the pun ) in the LED world, and something that Supercoley1 has stumbled upon.

I may not know all the nuances of planted tank lighting yet, but I hope I can help you guys out with some of these projects based on my work in the reefing world.


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## fishman9809

sup evil! lol! you are helping me on nano-reef thru PM!

im the guy with the 6 crees 3w'ers with the 1000mA buckpuck with pot! 

still no power source or thermal compound unfortunately :/


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## Supercoley1

The current controller is a no name 7 - 24V one that can use dimmable input and needs 1.5V for itself. Not particularly interested in dimming thoug. that just means something else to go wrong. If it is too bright I raise the luminaire if I want it brighter I lower it.simple things for simple me 

I can also if wished just lower the input wattage on the adaptors to 9V instead of 12V

I still think WPG is put simply something people can easily equate and if there were a genereal rule of thumb that said T5 = X x WPG rule etc then it would be much more useful. Lumens, LUX and PAR is beyond most people's knowledge, measuring equipment and interest IMO. They can read W off the box. It is T5 and therefore just say 1WPG T5 = 2WPG (Not exact but better than 1 person getting 40W of T12 and having no problems and another person getting 40W T5HO and saying what am I doing wrong. lol

It's a dodgy subject and my scientific or electrical knowledge is not good so I am leaving this well alone for the moment. People always throw the '13 year old fitch article' at me without understanding what I actually mean by 'spread' instead of 'power'. Maybe I don't explain it in a way that is understandable but I don't have the techy lingo to be able to explain things that way.

So you are saying that if a T5HO emits a higher lumens than an LED that the PAR might actually be reversed??? That puzzles me as to why you say the lumens rule is OK to use.

Are you saying they actually burnt their corals because of the PAR whilst thinking (from sight and from lumens info) that they were lower than before?

Not trying to peeve anyone by dismissing rules etc. I think however that we can all see that light is one of those areas with no rules. lol I prefer ranges like with dosing and CO2 

AC


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## andyh

I think I agree with Supercoley1, at least to some degree. I like to have quick, easy-to-figure-out items when I'm figuring out whether I want to invest in doing a particular project. WPG is very easy to figure out that I will spend about $500 to get roughly the light I want on a 135g. OK, so I'm in for that expense. Lumens per gallon or Lumens per SqIn of surface is probably better, but that stuff is for when I've already made the decision to go ahead and now want to fine-tune the detailed design.

What annoys me is when you get someone that insists on the perfect, detailed result of a complex calculation, but they don't have the background or the experience to know what the components of the calculation represent. It's the "I want perfection, but don't make me think for more than 5 seconds" syndrome. You see it all the time in LED design with the folks that want to use 5 LED's from their Christmas lights or for 10 cents each on EBay, and then they will scream that LED's are a joke when they get a 30-cent solution for 30-cents.


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## evilc66

I agree that there needs to be a simple rule as a guide, but it should be just a guide. Maybe in the planted world it will be a little easier as the lighting requirements aren't as demanding. In the reef world it's a little harder once you start mixing different colors together, and throwing optics into the mix.

I never said using lumens as a guide was perfect, but I see it as better than using watts. 3W LEDs from various manufacturers will yield different lumen outputs. That will instantly confuse things as people will look at cheap Chinese knock offs that have only 130lm output at 3W for pennies, then compare to a Cree R2 at 245lm at 3W. Then they wonder why their setup isn't performing as well as Joe's down the street who used Crees. All they will think (if they aren't educated properly) is that watts are watts, and thats all that matters.

My comparison on lumen and PAR comparisons was directed to LEDs. T5 and MH still have a ton of lumen and PAR output. Where LEDs shine in that reguard is that they produce more PAR for the same lumen output. What I was getting at earlier is that changing from warm white to cool white, your lumens go up (just based on design, as typically lumen output goes up as color temp goes down in MH and T5), but you PAR can drop based on the change in red/blue bias. The difference won't be huge per LED, but in an array, the difference could be noticeable.

The problems with the Solaris was due to a lack of education. When these first cam on the scene no one was aware of the PAR potential for LEDs. Everything was judged on visual brightness, so they cranked it up to it's max. Thats a lot of PAR at that point, and will easily bleach corals. You will find very few people on the reef forums running the fixtures at 100% output. I have a small 30W LED fixture over a 4g pico that produces PAR levels similar to most 70W 14K MH, but it only has 1/3 the lumen output.

Again, there needs to be a guide of some sort that people can reference, and the work that you guys have done so far will help shape that. It took me almost two years to get to the point of being able to suggest array setups for people for reef tanks. Lots of experimenting


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## Cory Keeper

I think I need to re-evaluate my guideline. I think the 1:24^2" ratio is getting into the high light range. I found this out after I added CO2 and started dosing ferts. Seeing far far far better growth than with my CFLs.


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## evilc66

Thats good to hear.

You are just running cool white right? Any thought on the use of neutral whites to mix in with the cools to bring a little more red into the tank?


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## andyh

Corykeeper, any idea as to what your adjustment to the 1:24^2 ratio might be? I'm putting 60 Cree XR-E over 18 X 72 (1296), and was going to order more from DX because the ratio suggests that I'm "medium" light. Could you PM me if you don't want to go public with anything here yet?


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## Cory Keeper

Evil, I do run just 6500K, I'm not sure I want to run anything else, nor am I sure that anything else is required. I think the red is hyped a little bit much, most people run 6500K PCs without much issue, and I think that a case could be made that LEDs put out more reds and blues than their fluorescent counterparts.

That said, I am beginning to think that the planted aquarium could stand a little bit more red to help in the root system (most reds are used to help drive the root system from what I've red). I may or may not add a few reds to try and prove that theory.

Andy..... Its really hard to say, the 1:24^2 inches ratio is deff not medium, not when I'm dosing ferts every other day or so, with DIY CO2, in a 29g tank, where 2 bottles isn't giving me 30PPM. I suspect its borderline high light, medium would probably be 1:30^2"-1:36^2", its really hard to say without a PAR meter. 60 is deff in the high range though, going higher without CO2 is not adviseable.

Mileage may vary by tank depth of course, my tank is 17-18 deep.

With all that said and done, anyone the Greenville/Spartanburg area with a PAR meter be willing to lend it to me for a day or two get some numbers on my rig?


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## Supercoley1

This is a better pic of the tank under the full 15 x 2.45W = 37W over 33USG = 1.1WPG.

From growth differences and CO2 usage (I have had to push CO2 from 2bps to 3bps under this light even though I have raised it a further 8 inches up from the tank)

This is highlight not medium light!!!

I've take the first pic on a camera phone isn't the best quality. The second is with the camera that you can see in the firs picture. lol

















AC


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## rauli

Hi.

How do you feel that led spots would work on a planted aquarium? The spot in the link uses 3x Cree XR-E leds. http://www.led1.de/shop/product_info.php?pName=solarox-gigapower-led-spot-weiss-3x-cree-xre-gu10-p-1094&cName=highpower-p4xre-led-spots-c-168

You would of course need quite many of these spots, but it would make installing them quite easy.

What would the problems be with this kind of solution?


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## andyh

Since they are intended as spots, getting the coverage "even" instead of "bright spots and dim areas" might be a challenge. 

I haven't seen that unit before, but at least it is using good LED's.

Some products that group multiple XR-E's have had problems with heat dissipation when used for prolonged periods because of a lack of heatsinking. I have no idea if this is one of them. The symptoms of the problem are LED failure in 3-4 months.


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## evilc66

They way they have been getting around this is by under driving the LEDs to 2W. You see that quite a bit now. I have a slightly different version of that lamp that uses indiviual optics instead of a single one. You can tweak the throw a little if you can find the lenses for them. They came stock 60 degrees, but seem to be a little narrower than that.


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## Cory Keeper

rauli said:


> Hi.
> 
> How do you feel that led spots would work on a planted aquarium? The spot in the link uses 3x Cree XR-E leds. http://www.led1.de/shop/product_info.php?pName=solarox-gigapower-led-spot-weiss-3x-cree-xre-gu10-p-1094&cName=highpower-p4xre-led-spots-c-168
> 
> You would of course need quite many of these spots, but it would make installing them quite easy.
> 
> What would the problems be with this kind of solution?


Several issues,

First off, those are being driven at just over 1w per LED, not exactly great, those may be 1w LEDs.
Second, stupid expensive for what you get, for 36 euros I could get a nice setup with alot more than that.
Third, you would need quite a few to get even a decent amount of PAR.

BTW Coley, you might find that WPG applied to LEDs is useless. Even if we were to tweak the system to say .5 WPG is medium light, 1 WPG is high, it still doesn't apply to most all tanks. I think this is due to the fact that LEDs seem to be able to put quite a bit of PAR down at the bottom of the tank, even with it being higher off the surface.

Thats why I went with the Square Inches Per LED (SIPLED) guideline, since height doesn't matter too much to LEDs (it does, just not as much as to PC bulbs), my guideline takes that out of the equation. That said, its not perfect nor is it a "end all other guidelines" thing. Its still undergoing "testing" and I'm trying to get it a little more accurate. Even after that, I think I will still need to make a provision (small provision) for really short tanks, or really tall tanks (tanks below 12" deep, and tanks longer than 20" deep).

Even though, I think I could stand to take a strand (three) from my 29g and stick it over my 5g (which has been sorely neglected) and see what happenes.


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## merk1_99

I am in the process of working on my array for my 4 gallon. I went with 6 neutral, and 6 cool white. Got that suggestion from Evil over at NR. Now I am just waiting for parts to arrive and then the build begins. Good to see some interest here on the plant side.


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## Supercoley1

Are they 1 watts? That looks like a lot of LED for a 4 gallon!! I have 7.45W over my 10 litre 

AC


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## andyh

Something is wrong with the advertisement - there are no Cree XR-E's that run at 1W. They're either running the Cree's at 350ma (in which case you're paying for a 3W LED and then using it like a 1W, or they're really not XR-E's...


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## Supercoley1

Some new pictures later as I am whipping the lense/collimators off my Nano. The corners are too dark and I want the spread for the Glosso that's in there.

Glosso carpets don't require high light but they definately require a good coverage 

Will of course do a before and after 

AC


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## rauli

Cory Keeper said:


> Several issues,
> 
> First off, those are being driven at just over 1w per LED, not exactly great, those may be 1w LEDs.


Is the 3w LED the most cost effective then? I'v seen Seoul SSC P7 on a star for 37€(price in Finland), 2800 mA: 900 lm. Would that be the same as having 3 to 4 3w LEDs?



> Third, you would need quite a few to get even a decent amount of PAR.


Does the lense make any difference here? These spots have a beam angle of 38 to 25 degrees. If the light is more focused, does the PAR go higher, since all of the light energy is focused on a smaller area? Or do you mean PAR for the whole tank?

Thanks.


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## andyh

While the SSC P7 is a nice LED, I haven't seen great deals on them or the Cree MC-E (multichip). As the wattage goes up, thermal management also gets more challenging. You can get Cree XR-E (Q5 or R2 bins are the best) for around $5.50US if you're buying 10 or more (a little higher if only 3 or more). That's at DX.


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## Supercoley1

rauli said:


> Does the lense make any difference here? These spots have a beam angle of 38 to 25 degrees. If the light is more focused, does the PAR go higher, since all of the light energy is focused on a smaller area? Or do you mean PAR for the whole tank?


You've answered it yourself. People who want high PAR use many of LEDs with lenses on them. People who are after good spread but not necessarily high PAR can use less LEDs with no lenses if they want to.

If you use the lense it directs more light at one area and therefore penetrates more so the PAR is higher than without the lense where the light is spread across a wider area 

Anyway onto the pics:

These pics do not compare the LED without the lense properly to the lensed one because I am still using the lense holder as it holds the LED nicely in place. Also there is the 6mm acrylic so basically instead of the Lense 'restricting' the spread it is now free to bounce around the 'tunnel' created by the lense holder and acrylic before being able to spread where it wants when it reaches the end.

This means there is not the light spread that you saw on the main luminaire where the whole LED is open to emit light in all directions.

Here is a comparison. The 2 lights on the left have lenses in and the one on the right does not:









This is the tank first with the lenses in and then without any lenses:

















Doesn't look hugely different at first glance because this is only an 8" high tank so we do not need long reaching beams here but you can clearly see in the centre of the tank the white brightness has gone and in the front corners there is a better spread of light. There is better light all around in reality but then I've spoken about my photography skills before. lol

AC


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## merk1_99

I am going to use 3 watt Cree without optics. I don't have the link handy but the Cree cool whites are of the earlier 3w bin. I am not going to go for the latest and greatest Cree at DX. I want an even distribution of lighting throughout the tank. LEDs are going to be run through buckpucks with the ability to dim. So if the light levels are still two high I can always either remove some LEDs or add some less par producing red crees instead of the neutral crees....Tank has pressurized CO2 going in the week.


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## Supercoley1

Are you sure red are lower PAR? I know they are higher Lumens but I haven't a clue PAR wise 

I would design the hood as a luminaire or similar so you can raise/lower it to increase/decrease the amount of light rather than having to get in there and keep altering it!!!

AC


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## merk1_99

You have a link to what a luminaire looks like? Just want to make sure I am looking at the right thing.


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## Supercoley1

merk1_99 said:


> You have a link to what a luminaire looks like? Just want to make sure I am looking at the right thing.


Not very technical. If you make a hood it sits on top of the glass and you use the depth of the hood to be able to fix the lights a distance above the water and is therefore a fixed distance.

If you raise it up by hanging it or making stands then you no longer need the depth and will use the hanging cables/chains or legs to distance the lights and therefore have a luminaire 

It just means that instead of making a 6" tall hood where the lights are 5" from the water surface and being fixed at that height you have the option of raising the lights if you make it as a luminaire.

My luminaire IS my old hood. It was originally 6" tall. I cut the bottom 2 inches off as I no longer needed them and then suspended it using chains. I started with it 8" above the water level, then moved it to 10", 13" and is now 15" above. I had the adaptability as I was seeing the growth increase to 'decrease' it by raising the light 

AC


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## merk1_99

Ah I see. I was planning on doing something about heights with the legs.


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## rauli

@Supercoley1 

Thanks for the pictures, they were quite helpful.

If I remember correctly you are using 3w leds that have about 150-200 lumens. Is there any way of calculating how many higher power leds would have equal light power as 3 or 4 3w leds? Could I use the lumen value when comparing the leds. I'm thinking of Seoul p7, which has over 900 lumens compared to 3w leds that give around 200 lumens. If I were to use Seoul p7 or equivalent instead of for example Luxeon Rebels, I would have 3 to 5 times less leds to install. I think it might even be cheaper even though p7s cost more than Luxeons.

Any thoughts?


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## Supercoley1

If you use higher than 3W then you are using less LEDs and get less spread.

I chose 3W LEDs rather than 1W LEDs to reduce the soldering whilst retaining the ability to spread them. I could've gone further an used 2 x 20W LEDs or 1 x 50W which would be a case of 1 plug, 1 power adaptor, 1 driver and 1/2 LEDs BUT I have learnt from fluorescents the importance of light spread and that given the choice 3 x T8s of the same W as 1 CF will grow EVERYTHING better because the spread is better!!! 

Forget about the Lumens. Mine are in the 80-90 range if I remember rightly and from I have read on either this thread or the other one that is running they are lower Lumens than MH yet higher on PAR. PAR is the defining measurement for our use and while most will never have the facility to measure PAR it is much better than Lumens. You talk Lumens and you get the 'lumens rules' lot on your back and its not worth it. Just look at other people's set ups and go by that unless oyu have a PAR meter. Use the WPG rule and (at the risk of annoying the lumens crowd) assuming the LED will be positioned at the same height as the fluoros and dependent on the colour/quality of the LEDs use, calculate using one third of the W of T8 or 4/5ths of T5/T5HO you have used.

By this I mean if you had 60W of T8 then just use 40W LED, If you had 50W T5/T5HO then use 40W LED. At the same height it should be about comparable.

Always remember though, its not just about the amount of light supplied (W or Lumens) More important is to get a good spread over the substrate than just bang a load of (often uneeded) light over the top of the tank. This is why I always say 'good light' and not 'high light'. 2 different things that the majority do not understand in the least and brag about their huge W!!!

AC


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## serhiyi

I just thinking on building LED lights for my tank and found this thread.
A lot of good information here.

Does anyone has a documented set up: LEDs, drivers, parts, etc.?
This would be very helpful for someone like me.

I'd like to have LED lights that can be programmed to turn on at specified time and go from 0% to 100% brightness over some time. Then stay on all day and go from 100% to 0% at the end of the day.

Anything like that can be done at home?

I also looking at Luxeon Rebel Stars: http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-rebel-stars-c-29.php

There are several options available. What would be better to use 24 LEDs (7007-PWC-08-1) with 145 lumens each or 12 LEDs (7007-PWC-05-3) with 285 lumens each?

I have some calculations as for price per lumen, total cost of the project with different options:



Code:


Model Number	Lm	Amp	Price			Price/lm	Number of LEDS	Lm total	Cost
7007-PWC-05-1	95	700	 $5.49		$0.058	30			2850		$164.70
7007-PWC-08-1	145	700	 $6.99		$0.048	24			3480		$167.76
7007-PWC-09-1	160	700	$11.99		$0.075	20			3200		$239.80
7007-PWC-10-1	180	700	$14.99		$0.083	18			3240		$269.82
								
7007-PWC-05-3	285	700	$14.99		$0.053	12			3420		$179.88
7007-PWC-08-3	435	700	$18.49		$0.043	8			3480		$147.92
7007-PWC-09-3	480	700	$30.99		$0.065	7			3360		$216.93
7007-PWC-10-3	540	700	$38.49		$0.071	6			3240		$230.94

I'm working on lights for my 55 gal saltwater tank and calculations are for 12" section. I would need 4 sections like that.

Is there a big difference in heat production/distribution if I have one rebel on star or three of them?
What about light projection? If I have fewer but brighter LEDs, will I see "spots"?

Does any one played with these?

It looks like fewer LEDs is easier to work with and I would like to go that way if no major problems with light and heat distribution from star with 3 rebels on it (comparing more LEDs with one rebel on star).


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## andyh

Take a look at the Cree XR-E LED's at DX. If you buy 10+, they're $5.18 each, for 228 Lumen @ 1000ma. I'm currently building mine with 60 of them for a 135g tank. Note that many of the LED's that you're looking at are tri-emitter LED's and the voltage is 9.45 V. Remember to cost out the electricity for 3-5 years into your total cost - it will be the biggest cost.


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## rauli

@ andyh

How is your led project going? I have been testing with 8 cree xr-e leds for a few weeks now, and I am not happy with them. I put them in my 400l (100gal) tank over a space of about 30X30 cm (about 12X12 inches). My tank is 50cm (19.7in) high. These leds are placed at the right end of the tank, so they are pretty much the only light at that end. I have two t5 tubes that light the rest of the tank. Its not highlight, but I do get some pearling on some plants with the t5 tubes, and not so much with the leds. I have a Hemianthus micranthemoides under the leds, and its not doing well at all. Its short so its very near the bottom. I have a second one under the t5 tubes, and that one is doing a little better. I think it might be a problem of the leds not penetrating the water all the way to the bottom.

I am underpowering the leds, since they are 1000ma leds, that I run at 700ma. A week ago I got 4 lenses, so half of the leds now have a more focused beem. 

Regards, Rauli.


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## Supercoley1

I have updated this and the MkII version DIY Luminaire can be found on APC here:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...led-luminaire-mkii-may-2010-a.html#post547327

AC


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