# Co2 system, where can I get one cheap?



## Gordonrichards

Anyone know of a good pressurized Co2 system thats cheap?
How cheap? Cheaper then cheap!
Around 100ish cheap.

Paintball would be nice, since canisters for them are inexpensive and easy to come by.

I see redsea, prices are around $150 or so.
Just a little shy of my cheapness.

Any ideas folks?


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## NeonFlux

I dont know man, but in this hobby, you have to be willing to spend lol some serious $$$ sometimes, but I suggest looking at the sales thread here, look for anyone who is selling a used complete co2 system for cheap. Good luck!


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## freshyleif

What size tank are you putting the CO2 on? There are some great cheap DIY CO2 setups that people have made for various tank sizes if you are into it.


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## khanzer22

I agree w/ Neon... if you're on the budget and if you have the patience to wait, your best bet is to look for someone selling their used CO2 system... There are few sales sub-forum you can check out on different aquatic/planted forum sites (or even Craigslist!) where you'll see people selling this stuff... Wish you good luck


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## houseofcards

If your looking for something on the cheap and it's the difference between having pressurized or not than go with a Milwaukee (around $80) or an Azoo (around $65). Big difference between the two is that the Milwaukee comes with an attached bubble counter and you can control the pressure with a control knob as well as the needle valve. The Azoo has no bubble counter and has a fixed working pressure that you adjust with the needle valve only. Are there better regulators, yes, but these work fine if you follow the directions. I've never used anything else yet. I've also been using this single gauge Azoo (pic) on my nano and it's been working fine for a few months. It's coupled with a 2.5lb standard tank, Add a $10 diffuser and a $5 drop checker and you pretty much have a complete system for $130. These regulators are good for many because they bridge the expense gap between having pressurized and not.


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## bosmahe1

houseofcards said:


> If your looking for something on the cheap and it's the difference between having pressurized or not than go with a Milwaukee (around $80) or an Azoo (around $65). Big difference between the two is that the Milwaukee comes with an attached bubble counter and you can control the pressure with a control knob as well as the needle valve. The Azoo has no bubble counter and has a fixed working pressure that you adjust with the control knob. Are there better regulators, yes, but these work fine if you follow the directions. I've never used anything else yet. I've also been using this single gauge Azoo (pic) on my nano and it's been working fine for a few months. It's coupled with a 2.5lb standard tank, Add a $10 diffuser and a $5 drop checker and you pretty much have a complete system for $130. These regulators are good for many because they bridge the expense gap between having pressurized and not.


Where did you get the single gauge Azoo from? Very cool looking.


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## houseofcards

bosmahe1 said:


> Where did you get the single gauge Azoo from? Very cool looking.


I got it here, but it can be had for less on Ebay. Only difference is here it ships from the states.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/737/AZOO-CO2-Pressure-Regulator/Azoo%20Co2%20regulator/0


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## riseabovethesun

I just mentioned this to another member on here, I use this: http://www.redseafish.com/CO2.asp (the one on the right) Co2 Bio System and it is like 50 bucks and then the refills which last me almost 2 months even though it says 30 days are (at my LFS) $9.99

After talking to a guy who has pressurized systems, I was talking about upgrading to a pressurized in hopes maybe it'd be cheaper in the long run and he said it will ultimately (after expensive initial set up) cost at least 10 bucks a month, depending on the rate at which you put CO2 into the tank.

So if you're looking for cheap, that works fantastic. My LFS also has some other little mini CO2 kits like that of other brands, one is Japanese I believe it's about 70 bucks and the refills are about 15 bucks per 1-2 months.

It is at least a cheap way to start your tank off. Oh and I use mine is a 36 gallon bow front and have a wide variety of plants thriving well. Just depends on the size of your tank, the other kit on the left on that link is for up to 125 gallons, and is a bit more pricey but still within range.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Gordonrichards,

After I proved to myself that CO2 made a huge difference in my success with planted aquariums I lurked on Craigslist for several months doing two-a-day searches for "CO2". Eventually I scored a 20# aluminum CO2 tank (that look like new and was 1/2 full) and 2 gauge regulator for $60. I added a needle valve and brass check valve for $35 fed the CO2 into the input of my HOB Aquaclear (love the horizontal sponge configuration for dissolving the CO2; I use two sponges no charcoal).


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## Gordonrichards

I'm going with the Milwaukee, I found a guy about 15 minutes away that can sell a new aluminum tank filled for 89 bucks.

A guy on craigslist has a redsea paintball for 85.00, but I don't feel like filling up a tank every month and a half. I would have to buy a new tank (30) filled. Total cost ends up being $120. For $40.00 more I won't have to fill it for another 9-12 months.

Excellent!.


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## Left C

It would be a good idea to research the Milwaukee regulator a bit more before you purchase it. There are quite a few people that dislike it. It is simply not a precision instrument.

If you do get one, you will like the Milwaukee regulator better if you use a good quality needle or metering valve with it.

Possibly, you might be able to rig up a Fabco NV 55 needle valve ($23 + shipping) in line after the bubble counter on the Milwaukee and leave the stock needle valve installed in a wide open setting. I've never read of anyone doing it this way, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

You could do away with the stock Milwaukee needle valve and add an Ideal 52-1-12 (same link and $70 + shipping). This Ideal valve is hard to beat for our use.

Myself and others have gone to a cheaper way out. We've purchased dual stage regulators, solenoids, needle/metering valves and bubble counters from ebay with the adapters from a local plumbing supply and built our own. You can have a very high quality regulator assembly at low cost doing this. You have to know what you are looking for, be patient and find the good deals. Several of us have built some very nice ones for less than $80. It can be done.


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## houseofcards

I've always come on here and defended the Milwaukee Regulators since I have 5 of them and I've installed many others and never had a problem. One is four years old and I've never changed the needle valves. 

Now that being said, is it the best built regulator in the world, no, but the pre-builts like the Milwaukees bridge the affordably gap between people going pressure or not. Many of the problems you hear about are for two reasons. One the Milwaukee is probably one of the most used regulators in the industry, thus more in use, you hear of more problems. Two the Milwaukee is usually the first regulator people buy thus they are very unfamiliar with it's workings so they damage it. If you follow the directions you should be fine. If one day you want a more expensive regulator than go for it, but the Milwaukee and the other prebuilts give people there first taste of pressurized and once they experience that there is no turning back. So give the Milwaukee it's do. Just my 2 cents!


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## cbwmn

houseofcards said:


> I've always come on here and defended the Milwaukee Regulators since I have 5 of them and I've installed many others and never had a problem. One is four years old and I've never changed the needle valves.
> 
> Now that being said, is it the best built regulator in the world, no, but the pre-builts like the Milwaukees bridge the affordably gap between people going pressure or not. Many of the problems you hear about are for two reasons. One the Milwaukee is probably one of the most used regulators in the industry, thus more in use, you hear of more problems. Two the Milwaukee is usually the first regulator people buy thus they are very unfamiliar with it's workings so they damage it. If you follow the directions you should be fine. If one day you want a more expensive regulator than go for it, but the Milwaukee and the other prebuilts give people there first taste of pressurized and once they experience that there is no turning back. So give the Milwaukee it's do. Just my 2 cents!


I also have a Milwaukee setup. No problems at all, I just dial in the pH value desired on the pH controller and let it go.
AND, I bought it used.

Charles


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## Left C

This is an aquarium CO2 regulator assembly that I built for $80 including shipping from three different vendors. This price is right in line with Milwaukees' when on sale.

This one has a mint condition chrome plated medical grade Victor VTS253A-1993 two stage CO2 regulator from a hospital's retired back-up CO2 system. It uses a Clippard solenoid and a Swagelok metering valve that I got for 99¢ plus shipping. The most expensive part was the solenoid because I got it from someone that builds and sells regulators. This particular Victor regulator model is one that is excellent for our use with its 0 to 30 psi low pressure gauge. If you get a chance to pick one up, do so. They are usually $20 to $60 plus shipping.


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## houseofcards

Left C said:


> This is an aquarium CO2 regulator assembly that I built for $80 including shipping from three different vendors. This price is right in line with Milwaukees' when on sale.
> 
> This one has a mint condition chrome plated medical grade Victor VTS253A-1993 two stage CO2 regulator from a hospital's retired back-up CO2 system. It uses a Clippard solenoid and a Swagelok metering valve that I got for 99¢ plus shipping. The most expensive part was the solenoid because I got it from someone that builds and sells regulators. This particular Victor regulator model is one that is excellent for our use with its 0 to 30 psi low pressure gauge. If you get a chance to pick one up, do so. They are usually $20 to $60 plus shipping.


I'm sure that's a fine setup, but let's be fair:

The reg your showing does not have a bubble counter, which the Milwaukee includes. It also appears to be used, as you stated "a hospital's retired back-up co2 system". Since it's used, I don't think you would have much recourse if there's a problem with it. Anyone that has dealt with Milwaukee knows they are very good with warranty and customer service. The reg requires it to be built and spend time searching for parts some people simply don't have the time nor do they want to DIY something that can be purchased pre-built and works fine. So if you add in the time, warranty, lack of a bubble counter I don't think the price comes close.


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## Left C

houseofcards said:


> I'm sure that's a fine setup, but let's be fair:
> 
> The reg your showing does not have a bubble counter, which the Milwaukee includes. It also appears to be used, as you stated "a hospital's retired back-up co2 system". Since it's used, I don't think you would have much recourse if there's a problem with it. Anyone that has dealt with Milwaukee knows they are very good with warranty and customer service. The reg requires it to be built and spend time searching for parts some people simply don't have the time nor do they want to DIY something that can be purchased pre-built and works fine. So if you add in the time, warranty, lack of a bubble counter I don't think the price comes close.


These particular regulators came from a hospital's back-up CO2 system. When the hospital upgraded their CO2 system, these were sold. Many were just barely used. Some were brand new. Out of the dozens that were sold, there weren't any problems with them. I bought five of this particular model. A warranty isn't really needed as they are built to last and be ready for hospital use when called upon. These regulators are a very high quality regulator. When new, they can be used for oxygen duty in a hospital because of their special manufacturing process.

I'm sorry about the spots on it. I should of shined it up a bit. That's how it looks after two years of non-stop use.

I used an Aqua Medic bubble counter with this regulator that I got from ebay for $1.75 plus shipping. It was missing the check valve and the tubing attached to it which needs to be replaced with a good Clippard check valve anyway. Otherwise, it was new. I think that I am the only one that likes this particular bubble counter. LOL

I did luck out with that metering valve, but I have bought others for $15 to $50.

I've used Azoo regulators and AquariumPlants.com "The Second Best" regulators and I'll never use them again. As long as I have these two stage regulators with quality solenoids and quality needle/metering valves, I'm not going back. The cost of the regulators that I have built so far range from $80 to $225.

To be fair, I've never used a Milwaukee regulator and probably never will. I just do not like single stage regulators and problematic needle valves. It is just not for me. It probably works OK with a pH controller. I hope that some folks have read Hoppy's comments about his Milwaukee regulator. He tells it like he sees it. It is great that Milwaukee has good customer support for this regulator. It needs it in quite a few cases from what I've read.

There are two long threads about using two stage regulators with well over 125,000 views combined. A lot of research by many people was done. All you have to do is read the posts and ask questions. Then look for what you want. There are many people following this route. Even some of the calcium reactor guys are going this route.

If you get a chance to try one, do so. I'm sure that you will like it. Tom Barr, Hoppy, Erik Olson and many others will tell you the same thing.

GreenLeafAquariums.com once had them in their product lineup.









Milwaukee regulator









Here are some of my parts for future builds.

new Victor VTS253A-1993, new Air Products E12-244B350, used Victor HPT500-350









Parker solenoid, Parker metering valve with Vernier micrometer handle, Parker 1 psig check valve, JBJ Bubble Counter









Parker solenoid, Ideal needle valve, Parker 1 psig check valve, JBJ Bubble Counter


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## herns

I've read a lot of problems buying single stage made regulators. So, I decided to build my own. Its a lot cheaper and built to last.

Here's my New Concoa I got on Ebay auction for jus $9.99. Last year it sells on retail price of a little more than $300.










A killer regulator after assembly.










In comparison with single stage regulator










Here's the one that I won from ebay auction yesterday for just $1.25!! Very solid stainless steel double stage regulator.










Some of my regulators for future build.


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## houseofcards

Left C,

I'm not sure why you're trying to convenience me that those builds you are showing are 'better' than the Milwaukee. As I said before I'm sure those are fine regulators. I'm also sure a Mercedes or Bentley is probably better quality than my GMC, but it doesn't mean you need one or want one. Most people's cars get them to and fro without any problems day in and day out and the same could be said for the Milwaukee regulator. Your plants aren't going to be any greener with your regulator.

What I am disagreeing with is how anything you presented relates to the OP question.

You are obviously very into your regulators, the fact that you have one proudly displayed as your avatar I think comes through loud and clear.

You also went on to show, your components for future builds. Do you think this is typical of someone asking "Co2 System, where can I get one cheap" I tend to believe he's not an advanced Co2 user and certainly not an advanced builder of them.

The Pre-Builts fills a void that allows someone without any technical knowledge nor deep pockets to experience pressurized co2. It bridges this gap. From there if necessary they might end up with a reg like one of yours. Those people you mentioned including yourself are DIY type advanced hobbyists, this poster in my view is not. So I really don't care what they are using nor their viewpoint. It doesn't necessarily relate to someone looking for a simple, inexpensive co2 system. This is simply a matter of accessibility to a simple pre-built inexpensive system.

The fact that you said your regulators came from a hospital's used/new equipment list and you don't need a warranty is not true. A warranty means a lot. Anything can break and you would have no recourse. What you don't think Mercedes and Bentley have repair shops? Don't they come with warranties? The only sure thing is death, taxes and of course algae, LOL.

BTW didn't you put out a feeler to try and determine the interest in two stage regulators in this thread titled what else "Two stage regulators"

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/69803-two-stage-regulators.html

I believe two people responded that there was interest and one of them was you! So I guess your could say there's minimal interest.


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## Left C

Gosh ... Why are you trying to push these damnable Milwaukee regulators off on newbies and you've been doing it for years too? Here's a thread from 2005 about a newbie that bought their first pressurized CO2 system that has a Milwaukee regulator. This person experienced a setting problem and killed most of his fish. Your suggestion was for him to get a pH controller.


houseofcards said:


> Aquasox,
> 
> I have the same regulator and same size tank. Just curious. Are you tighten the adjustment knob first than fine-tuning the bubble rate with the needle valve? If you still don't trust it I would definitely think about getting the ph controller. Nevertheless if you haven't done so already, check with where you bought it and see what they say.


I would of trashed that Milwaukee regulator.

How many fish have been killed by these miserable Milwaukee regulators? One? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? If it is one or more, that's too many.

Let's look at the OP's request:


Gordonrichards said:


> Anyone know of a good pressurized Co2 system thats cheap?
> How cheap? Cheaper then cheap!
> Around 100ish cheap.
> 
> Paintball would be nice, since canisters for them are inexpensive and easy to come by.
> 
> I see redsea, prices are around $150 or so.
> Just a little shy of my cheapness.
> 
> Any ideas folks?


Some things stand out here. The OP says

good
pressurized CO2
cheap

My first post in this thread addressed all three requirements. My regulator build was $80. You can easily make a DIY bubble counter or get a cheap one like I did. My regulator is far superior to any stock Milwaukee regulator. I have a metering valve vs a "known suspected" needle valve. I also have a two stage regulator that will not experience end of tank dump like a single stage regulator can. I don't have to swap the CO2 cylinder out when the pressure starts to drop. I have this person covered on all three requests.

As you know, Rex Grigg set up shop building "The Best Darn Regulator" about 5-6 years ago in an attempt to help with a bad problem. He has quite a following too. He published a pictorial DIY guide showing how to build a regulator with simple parts and tools so that all of us could build our own. Here is his guide: http://www.rexgrigg.com/regulator.htm

Rex uses a regulator that's around $40 plus shipping for his builds. We can see it here: http://www.beveragefactory.com/draf...classic_double_gauge_beer_co2_regulator.shtml

I learned about two stage regulators from my local Victor regulator dealer which is also where I get my CO2 cylinder swaps. Those hospital grade Victor two stage regulators were selling on ebay for $20 starting bid or $30 buy it now plus $9.30 shipping. I asked him about them. He said that they are worth $250 used. I sure snatched me up a couple right quick. This suited me. At the time, I was unemployed and working on a biotechnology degree. Money, or rather the lack of, was something that I knew about. These high quality regulators at dirt cheap prices were just the ticket for me. I soon learned of Swagelok metering valves selling for $1 and up on ebay. These can retail for $50 and much more. These two items were the ticket for me. By following Rex's guide, getting these very high quality parts dirt cheap and building my own allowed me to sell my Azoo regulators and my AquariumPlants.com regulator while pocketing some cash too. I hadn't figured out solenoids at this time, so I purchased them from our sponsors and people on our forums at retail plus shipping.

Houseofcards, I do not see anything wrong in what I am promoting. Sure, I can have Benz quality at Yugo prices and I like it. Heck, I'm working on a few Bentley's like you mentioned, but at Chevy prices. BTY, Chromemasters which is the company that does the chroming for Orange County Choppers did the chroming job on my JBJ bubble counters for $13 each. I know. I did splurge a bit here. What-the-hay, we only go around once.

Instead of saying that I'm wrong and the hundreds of other people that are following suit; why don't you try the same thing? Round up the parts of your choice, build it like you want it to look and try it out. You just might find that you like it and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg either. Besides, it's a challenge and it's fun too. I'm not a mechanic by trade or someone that works in the pressurized gas profession. I'm still unemployed and going to college, but only part time.

Let me close in telling about one of Herns builds. It is his first one shown in post #17. He has around $125 in his Concoa assembly that uses over $500 worth of retail parts. All his parts are first class (except the Clippard solenoid which leaked). Here we go. I'll be showing the retails prices in most cases.:

New Concoa 212 series chrome plated, forged brass two stage high purity regulator with 316L stainless steel diaphragms. He paid $9.99 plus shipping. He said that it sells for $300.
New Clippard solenoid - $31 plus shipping
New ⅛" female NPT stainless steel Swagelok metering valve with a Vernier micrometer handle. It retails for $141 plus shipping and I think that he has around $20 - $25 in it.
JBJ bubble counter - $17 shipped
adapters $25

This list comes up to $514 not including all the shipping and as near as I can tell, he has spent a total of $127. For that money, he has a high quality piece of equipment that will last dependably for years to come with one exception. As I mentioned, the Clippard solenoid leaked. It didn't gas any fish, it just leaked gas out its cover and emptied the CO2 cylinders rather fast. He's found some replacements. Also, as we've seen, Bürkert has some models of their 6011 solenoids with Buna-N seals in their product line.

This is to the OP. You can most likely find an used or cheap CO2 cylinder on Craig's list, the want adds, or other places. You can follow Rex's guide, round up your parts and build your own. It is easy. If you run into a problem or question, just ask on the forums. You can have a very good set-up with very little cash outlay that will be superior to the Milwaukee, Azoo, Red Sea regulators, etc that are commercially available.

Anyway, it's 3 AM (EDT) ...

Left C


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## houseofcards

Left C,

So let's see you started searching for threads and had to go back to 2005 at 3am in the morning to find a response that I made about a Milwaukee Regulator. I would be the first one to admit that I was a newbie back then and I've learned like most as I went along and it is now 2010 and in most cases you don't need a PH controller.

Like any product, when you sell a massive amount there will be people posting problems. The Milwaukee is still one of, if not the most widely used regulator out there and when you sell that many units there will be some issues. People buy alot of IPODs, most have no problems, but some will have issues. If there is such a massive problem with the Milwaukee why are so many people using them and the other pre-builts, but almost no one is using two-stage.

2005 has very litttle to do with today, but your thread "Two Stage Regulator" interest from just a few months ago proves there is virtually no interest for these.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/69803-two-stage-regulators.html

It's fine to disagree but let's keep it factual and respectful so other's can decide for themselves. There is different needs based on time, money, etc. and the pre-builts in my opinion fill a need for many newbies don't have the time or inclination to search for parts, and to build their own.


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## Left C

Hi houseofcards

Did you notice that someone else posted pictures of their two stage regulators in post #17? These are not all mine.



houseofcards said:


> Left C,
> 
> So let's see you started searching for threads and had to go back to 2005 at 3am in the morning to find a response that I made about a Milwaukee Regulator. I would be the first one to admit that I was a newbie back then and I've learned like most as I went along and it is now 2010 and in most cases you don't need a PH controller.


I'm usually up at 3 AM answering PM's and email from the left coast crowd. Your 2005 post was the first one that I looked when I did a search for pH controller/houseofcards. You said that you have 5 of them and the odds are very high that you might have used a pH controller with at least one of them. I certainly would so that it is less likely to gas fish. Anyway, I looked at the last one first. That's where my information came from. Maybe 45 seconds of time searching, tops. Search: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/search.php?searchid=1357748

Actually the next to last thread in the search is most troubling. It too is from 2005.


> I wanted to post this as a poll, but I couldn't figure out how.. maybe only moderators can post polls here? So I will post this as a regular question.
> 
> *If you have been a member here for the past year or more, you have read the flood of negative posts on JBJ regulators, Milwaukee regulators, diffusers vs reactors and so forth....
> *
> Without initiating any debate or argument, I would like to hear honest answers from people for the following:
> 
> Do you run a pressurized system:
> 
> 24/7
> 
> shut off at night/connected to a timer
> 
> connected to a pH controller
> 
> No sales hype, no nothing, just a straight forward question to see how many people actually use the solenoid on their regulator if they have one. I would like to know what the current trend is. I know this may not be a real accurate picture if not that many people bother to answer, but I am still curious.


Do you notice what is in bold print? There's bad statements about your Milwaukee recommendation on this forum going back six years. Yet you continue recommending a piece of aquarium equipment that gases many fish and also has killed many.

I wouldn't stand behind any piece of aquarium equipment that has done this. My equipment of choice and recommendation to the OP is a whole lot safer.



houseofcards said:


> Like any product, when you sell a massive amount there will be people posting problems. The Milwaukee is still one of if not the most widely used regulator out there and when you sell that many units there will be some issues. People buy alot of IPODs, most have no problems, but some will have issues. If there is such a massive problem with the Milwaukee why are so many people using them and the other pre-builts, but almost no one is using two-stage.


It is people like you that are getting the new people to buy them. They trust your advice and they really should not on this matter. They learn after the fact that they made a bad purchase.



houseofcards said:


> 2005 has very litttle to do with today, but your thread "Two Stage Regulator" interest thread from just a few months ago proves there is virtually no interest for these.
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/69803-two-stage-regulators.html


None one is interested in two stage regulators? "Bah! Humbug!" LOL
45,755 views, 952 replies and still counting: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators
The original thread on another forum has over 75,000 views when I last looked several months ago and it has over 1500 posts.



houseofcards said:


> It's fine to disagree but let's keep it factual and respectful so other's can decide for themselves. There is different needs based on time, money, etc. and the pre-builts in my opinion fill a need for many newbies don't have the time or inclination to search for parts, and to build their own.


The sad part about your advice is that there is no advance warning that these regulators have bad needle valves and they can have 'end of tank dump.' An experienced person, like yourself, can deal with these problems if most cases, but not if this is someone's first system. These faults kill fish! These poor people are going into something dangerous, quite blindly.

Have you gassed and killed fish with your Milwaukee regulators? I have not killed a single fish with my two stage Victor regulators. I am sure that many people can say the same thing.

A first system should be something safe and easy to work with so that they can learn about CO2 use, its benefits and also its dangers. That is what I offer. It is practically fail safe and can be had for a similar amount of money. No end of tank dumps or an unexpected pressure increase from two stage regulators and a good quality needle or metering valve to control the CO2. No one, especially some one new, should be "thrown to the wolves" by advising them to use known faulty equipment.

If you are going to continue recommending Milwaukee regulators, please warn them first of the highly probable dangers and try to teach them how to use it. Tell them about watching for pressure drops showing on the high pressure gauge. Tell them about the inconsistent needle valve and how to work with it. You might want to tell them to get a drop checker or two plus the 4 or 5 dKH solution. Go slowly on adjustments while trying to maintain a blue-green color in the drop checker and gradually working up to a green color. Be aware of a lime green color and a yellow color showing.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi HofC and Left C, 

First of all, thank you keeping the conversation respectful and lively! I know when I started this hobby a little over two years ago I did not know the difference between a single stage and two stage regulator. I did research, found that two stage regulators provide more stable output especially at high flow rates or with flow rates that vary (which we do not have in our hobby). I read about the dreaded and feared 'end of tank dump' (EOTD). I also looked at my wallet and budget.

Here is what happened. First, I watched Craigslist for several weeks doing a search with "CO2" a couple of times a day. Eventually I purchased a used single stage regulator for $35 and a used 5# aluminum tank (that need hydrotest) for $20. Having read the stories of 'EOTD' I spent some extra $ and purchased 'top of the line' Ideal 52-1-12 needle valves and a manifold from Rex Grigg.

Long story short, two years later, everything has worked fine and my system is rock solid. My CO2 levels don't vary, even if I let my CO2 tank run dry (even though I try not to let that happen). Bottom line in my book, is two stage better than single stage...yes, especially in high flow rate or varying flow rate applications. Do you have to have a two stage regulator to have a stable, reliable CO2 system? I don't believe so. Have I ever run into someone who has experienced 'end of tank dump'? Never, in spite of reading about the possibility many times in different threads and forums.


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## houseofcards

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> ... Have I ever run into someone who has experienced 'end of tank dump'? Never, in spite of reading about the possibility many times in different threads and forums.


Ditto I know no one as well. I have five of these running and I've also installed them on some setups in NYC that are sitting on some of the most expensive real estate in the country and I have not experienced one issue. So your comment that I am recommending a product that gases fish is way out of line. With all the numbers sold, of course there are problems. If a Honda malfunctions and causes an accident, should industry experts, etc., stop recommending Hondas.

Your give me way too much credit, I didn't know I influence the likes of drsfostersmith, marinedepot, bigals, aquariumplants and the vast majority of LFS that all sell not only single stage, but pre-built regulators. I guess they're all guilty of the same thing.

Left C, you don't represent mainstream planted aquaria. I know the vast majority of people use these regulators without issue and most look at pressurized as a necessary evil and just one component of planted aquaria. You on the other hand build these things as illustrated by the pics of all your regs for future builds, proudly displayed like one displays a shiny new car. BTW I looked at your Barr Report thread on Dual Stage.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators

After reading just a few pages, I realized the vast majority of the responses to the thread are from you, LOL. In your APC Dual Stage Thread there are two responses and one is you. I believe APC is much more representative of the hobby on many different levels than the Barr Report is. Are you saying APC isn't representative? Here is the entire text of the APC thread on Dual Stage Interest:

Left C: *Hi guys and gals*

*Is there any interest in two stage regulators at this forum?*
Thanks,
Left C

3-19-2010
Bosmahe1: *I think there is at least one! *

4-28-2010
Bosmahe1: *Bump*

4-29-2010
Left C: *Two*

I think if you bump it again, maybe you could get a third response.


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## Reginald2

That azoo is slick looking. I've been wanting one, but I was worried it was only metric.

Is the OP still here? How do you like your CO2 set up?


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## Gordonrichards

I haven't ordered the regulator yet so I'm still in process.

This is the most discussed post I've created in apc.

I know nothing at all about co2 systems so its all a good read for me.

I have alot to learn about high tech tanks.

Buying a canister filter was a big step up for me.

A co2 system and ho lighting beams me up to the moon.

:^) 

-Gordon Richards


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## bsmith

I'm kind of a "buy the best once" kind of guy and also don't like spending my money on lesser quality stuff when the I can get much better for the same price with more effort. 

After doing a ton of research and asking lots of questions I came across the dual stage regulators C was posting about. It was a Victor on E bay. After I bought that I found a yard sale that had co2 tanks and I purchased a 20#, 5# and a 2.5# knowing I would used the 5# and the 2.5#. I sold the 20# for twice what I paid for them all and that pretty much paid for the regulator. Then I got a $80 needle valve off a forum member for $20 and I made my own bubble counter from a juice bottle. The last piece was a Solenoid which I traded plants for. All in all I have maybe $80 in my first co2 setup, complete.

The moral of the story- If you want to jump in and get a decent product go ahead and get the Milwaukee but if you want to build something that WILL NOT give you any trouble and will last the long haul and more then likely cost LESS, then take your time and build a dual stage regulator. 

I have had two for a few years now and ran many, many , many bottle till there was no gas in them without even the slightest hint of bubble rate change. My fish are safe and they will be. Put your money in what you believe will suit you the best. 

No need for arguments its just a personal choice.


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## orisuechris

Im going to get the Milwaukee this week. What elso do I need to buy besides the CO2 tank to have a quick setup? Sorry I'm a noob Thanks-Chris


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## herns

bsmith said:


> The moral of the story- If you want to jump in and get a decent product go ahead and get the Milwaukee but if you want to build something that WILL NOT give you any trouble and will last the long haul and more then likely cost LESS, then take your time and build a dual stage regulator.


+1

Here's another user experience with Milwaukee Regulator.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...egulator-problem-please-help.html#post1133282


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## houseofcards

herns said:


> +1
> 
> Here's another user experience with Milwaukee Regulator.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...egulator-problem-please-help.html#post1133282


So what's your point?


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## Gordonrichards

herns said:


> +1
> 
> Here's another user experience with Milwaukee Regulator.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...egulator-problem-please-help.html#post1133282


.... Also whats your point? This guy purchased a used regulator. It had issues with it, hence it being sold for $30.00.

+1 houseofcards


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## neilshieh

i bought a small simple one for 20 dollars, it uses 12 or 16 gram common co2 cylinders. the valve screws directly onto the cylinder and the ouput is like the where you stick the airhose on air pumps, there is a knob on top where you control how much gas is being released, buy a cheap bubble counter and diffuser and you're set  did i mention i bought it in taiwan? it's common there...maybe you can ask someone to buy it for you when the go back or ship it to you. taiwan has so many cheap fish things... cherry shrimp are only 5 yuan each! (1US dollar=32 yuan) white and orange dwarf crayfish are 100 yuan. yellow shrimp are 20 yuan...etc. 
or you can check on ebay... they have good cheap regulators


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## darkoon

I think experiences with those pre-assembled CO2 assemblies are YMMV thing. I personally had bad experience with Milwaukee, the output bubbles per second changed every few days, so I had to keep on adjusting it. meanwhile a friend of mine who's been using his single stage assembly (also pre-assembled but not a Milwaukee as far as I know) for years without any problem at all. Now is this "end of tank dump" true or just urban legend? I have seen it been mentioned on a lot of reputable website, so I rather believe it than doubting it. I'd rather taking the safer approach than taking chances and risking the lives of the fish in my tank. From what I have read so far, it appears that a dual stage regulator is optional, (I changed swapped out my Milwaukee with a dual stage one because I accidentally blew the right gauge, needed to a replacement) a good needle valve is the key here to prevent EOTD. So if you do buy pre-assembled CO2 assembly for $80 to $90, invest another $30 to get a good needle valve.
again, this is just my 2 cents.


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## herns

darkoon said:


> I think experiences with those pre-assembled CO2 assemblies are YMMV thing. I personally had bad experience with Milwaukee, the output bubbles per second changed every few days, so I had to keep on adjusting it. meanwhile a friend of mine who's been using his single stage assembly (also pre-assembled but not a Milwaukee as far as I know) for years without any problem at all. Now is this "end of tank dump" true or just urban legend? I have seen it been mentioned on a lot of reputable website, so I rather believe it than doubting it. I'd rather taking the safer approach than taking chances and risking the lives of the fish in my tank. From what I have read so far, it appears that a dual stage regulator is optional, (I changed swapped out my Milwaukee with a dual stage one because I accidentally blew the right gauge, needed to a replacement) a good needle valve is the key here to prevent EOTD. So if you do buy pre-assembled CO2 assembly for $80 to $90, invest another $30 to get a good needle valve.
> again, this is just my 2 cents.


+1.
Some Milwaukee Regulatos brand last long. But Ive read a lot of failures than good reviews.

Assembling a dual stage reg is more cheaper than Milwaukee yet more reliable. I have a dual stage brand new concoa I got from ebay before for just $9.99. I assembled everything for about $120.


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## bsmith

darkoon said:


> I think experiences with those pre-assembled CO2 assemblies are YMMV thing. I personally had bad experience with Milwaukee, the output bubbles per second changed every few days, so I had to keep on adjusting it. meanwhile a friend of mine who's been using his single stage assembly (also pre-assembled but not a Milwaukee as far as I know) for years without any problem at all. Now is this "end of tank dump" true or just urban legend? I have seen it been mentioned on a lot of reputable website, so I rather believe it than doubting it. I'd rather taking the safer approach than taking chances and risking the lives of the fish in my tank. From what I have read so far, it appears that a dual stage regulator is optional, (I changed swapped out my Milwaukee with a dual stage one because I accidentally blew the right gauge, needed to a replacement) a good needle valve is the key here to prevent EOTD. So if you do buy pre-assembled CO2 assembly for $80 to $90, invest another $30 to get a good needle valve.
> again, this is just my 2 cents.


That is completely untrue. A needle valve has nothing to do with EOTD. Whether you spend $10 or $200 on a NV all it does is control flow rate based on a specific input pressure. The ONLY thing that can prevent EOTD is a DSR, thats it.


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