# Overflow with NPT



## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

This is - I guess - a direct question for Diana Walstad! I'm under the impression she manages this forum! Please correct me if I'm wrong!

I have read your book - well most of it:lie: - And what a book... great inspiration, thank you very much=D>

I have a 63g tank I'm in the process of setting up. I've bought my pottingsoil and it's currently spread out in a big tub so the amonia can air off!


My question:

This tank was equiped with an overflow when I got a hold of it... My intention has allways been to use it ofcourse - one of my bigger interests has allways been building biofilters - But after reading your book, I can see how a classic biofilter would actually compede with the plants in the tank!

I was wondering if it would be ok to use the biofilter - small 7g tank - as a sort of precipitation chamber for sediment? Just adding a small filtermatt to keep the pump clear? Maybe putting some hornworth or floating plants in there, instead of in the actual tank, this might reduce the amount of light taken from the plants in the tank!

Anyway thank you for a great book

Brian
Denmark


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Be warned of potting soil.
Usually contains extra fertilizer.
I just use the cheap top soil from Lowe's (red bag).
It wouldn't have enough nutrients for pots but seems plenty for the aquarium. Reason being is it contains composted material so I guess those compost in the tank and slowly release nuturients.

Never used potty soil for the tank.
I really bought this top soil as lawn filler and generic soil (good to mix with vermicompost (if I ever harvest instead of creating new bins)).


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

newbie314 said:


> Be warned of potting soil.
> Usually contains extra fertilizer.
> I just use the cheap top soil from Lowe's (red bag).
> It wouldn't have enough nutrients for pots but seems plenty for the aquarium. Reason being is it contains composted material so I guess those compost in the tank and slowly release nuturients.
> ...


'Shultz Aquatic Soil' from Home Depot is designed for ponds/aquariums and is completely inert
I use it in any big tank along with a thin filter sand/cosmetic sand top layer and it works great.
Another older product is called 'Soil Master Select' which was designed for major league baseball
infields which has a few trace minerals both work better than generic potting soil for aquariums.

Both products are very cheap compared to real substrates like Florite, Echo, & Aquasoil about $20
for a 50lb bag compared to $20 for a 20lb bag. You will need to add fert tabs to the soil or go
with a more advanced fert micro/macro dosing scheme but that's much easier to control than
a substrate that you have no idea what it contains.

- Brad


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Thank you very much!

I've used this soil before tho... for some reason all sorts of soil have more or less the same stuff added here in my part of the world... I've run a small setup with the soil first ofcourse and the fish and plants are doing fine, so I'm not worried!

I would however like to thank you, since I had a little trouble translating topsoil into my native languache, I ended up using the potting soil! So what you are saying is that topsoil is the stuff you put on just before you put down a lawn or footballfield, is that right?

Brian


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Larsen said:


> I would however like to thank you, since I had a little trouble translating topsoil into my native languache, I ended up using the potting soil! So what you are saying is that topsoil is the stuff you put on just before you put down a lawn or football field, is that right?
> Brian


Yes on a organic football field they put 8 inches of topsoil down since it's nearly to fully inert then
a layer of pre-mixed dry fertz (fertilizer) and then rolls of turf (pre-grown grass).

For lawn care most bags of topsoil have chemicals to retain moisture and heavy ferts so it's not as
good for aquariums unlike SMS or SAS.

- Brad


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Back to the original Q-
I think if you add plants to the overflow that would be a good idea. Add light, of course, too. 
I have a set up like that, a planted sump. I don't have enough light down there, though. 
I run the water through a coarse sponge, then a finer one to catch the debris.


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## ficher (Jan 6, 2008)

the soil that everyone is talking about is it safe for Discus fish?

rayer:


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

ficher said:


> the soil that everyone is talking about is it safe for Discus fish?


If your talking about "Shultz Aquatic Soil or Soil Master Select" then yes they are safe for 
Discus as I've had several Discus spawns over the years using SAS as a substrate.

Keep in mind that you will have to provide micro/macro fertilizer for your plants as those soils
are inert like Florite. I like to use Seachem Flourish for my micro and fert tabs as my macro
but I'll probably stop being lazy soon and use PPS-Pro for macros from the "Science of Aquatic
Fertilizing" forum.


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Thank you all very much for your answers!

RE adding micro and macro, isn't the hole idea of using the right soil to avoid having to dose on a regular basis... and isn't the point to actually take advantage of the natural processes that tha plants provide! It seams to me that using af soil that will requare you to fertilize on the side is not at all how DW sets up her tanks, and certainly not what her intended message was! I was under the impression that you should try and stimulate the natural processes with as little intervention as possible! From what I've read it dosn't seam to me that she uses "inert" soil!

I've had many disqussions with dansih aquarists and they all wanna treat the soil whith heat before using it! In my understanding that kinda puts a stop to the hole idae of using an organic active soil in the first place!

BTW... I have decided to just plug the overflow and not use it for now... no reason for exessive water movement if there really is no need for it!

Brian


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Larsen said:


> Thank you all very much for your answers!
> 
> RE adding micro and macro, isn't the hole idea of using the right soil to avoid having to dose on a regular basis... and isn't the point to actually take advantage of the natural processes that that plants provide! It seams to me that using af soil that will requare you to fertilize on the side is not at all how DW sets up her tanks, and certainly not what her intended message was! I was under the impression that you should try and stimulate the natural processes with as little intervention as possible! From what I've read it dosn't seam to me that she uses "inert" soil!
> Brian


I can't speak for anyone but myself nor would I want to. I'm only giving advice based off of my
10+ years of keeping and spawning multitudes of fish and growing plants. In my opinion there
are many different ways to setup and maintain healthy tanks not to mention that there are several
ways to maintain NPT tanks which I've tried. Locking yourself into one method isn't healthy for
your growth as a hobbyist. I find that especially true of the extremes on both sides of NPT and
high-light/C02 advocates.

I'm personally a hybrid NPT hobbyist I've read Diana Walstad's book multiple times (which I
recommend to all new hobbyist) and I also read Tom Barr's work/forums daily but I refuse to
blindly follow anyone I'm constantly trying new things good or bad and base my advice from my
experience.

~

Having said that I believe that there's nothing natural about a closed environment aquarium the
tank cannot fully replenish what it needs solely on its own because it is not constantly
circulating large amounts of water, nutrients, etc like a river or lake. Every once in a while
you have to nudge it back into shape via water changes, filtration/circulation, and additives
(medicine/fertz).

The reason I like NPT's is because those corrections are less frequent and are less harsh on the
tanks limited bio-sphere. Adding fert tabs one time every six months to the substrate or dosing
Seachem Flourish and PPS-PRO once a month isn't going to invalidate your standing as a NPT
advocate. The best part of my NPT tanks is that I can grow plants that the vast majority
says can't be grown in low-light tanks with less than weekly water changes and low fert dosing
(grated at a slower rate of growth).

Like I've said before do what works for you not what the majority tells you to do because it's
your tank and your skills.

- Brad


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

bradac56 said:


> I can't speak for anyone but myself nor would I want to. I'm only giving advice based off of my
> 10+ years of keeping and spawning multitudes of fish and growing plants. In my opinion there
> are many different ways to setup and maintain healthy tanks not to mention that there are several
> ways to maintain NPT tanks which I've tried. Locking yourself into one method isn't healthy for
> ...


Ah... you are right ofcourse! I myself have been keeping fish and plants for more than 10+ years! But when you come accross a book like this you just have to stop and think some things through, if you know what I mean! I mean it basically goes against everything we've learned right? Dirt in your tank! Direct sunlight! Few or no waterchanges! Little or no filtration! Overfeeding! I mean comeon... if that dosn't arouse your interest you shouldn't be in this hobby in the first place Well anyway... I for one, after having spend many years with hightech tanks and fishkeeping and breeding find this book very refreshing! And I totally agree on your point of a "too little enclosed ecosystem" My filosophy as well, but I HAVE to try this - to me - new concept!

Either way, the soil will become depleeted at some point, in which case I figure one will have to change the hole tank or start adding nutrient sticks or something similar!

Brian


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Larsen said:


> Thank you all very much for your answers!
> 
> RE adding micro and macro, isn't the hole idea of using the right soil to avoid having to dose on a regular basis... and isn't the point to actually take advantage of the natural processes that tha plants provide! It seams to me that using af soil that will requare you to fertilize on the side is not at all how DW sets up her tanks, and certainly not what her intended message was! I was under the impression that you should try and stimulate the natural processes with as little intervention as possible! From what I've read it dosn't seam to me that she uses "inert" soil!
> 
> ...


Hello Brian,

Sorry, I didn't get to your letter until now. It sounds like you are on the right path. I wrote extensively about fishfood as a perfect fertilizer (complete, slow-release, etc). There's no need to add inorganic fertilizers for plants if you have a good number of fish and feed them well. Snails help in conversion of fishfood, feces, etc to plant nutrients. However, you know all this, since you've read my book and seem to understand some of the concepts.

I wouldn't say that the soil will "give out" as it will be constantly replenished with new nutrients every time you feed the fish. My tanks have been going for over 7 and 15 years with the same soil. The 7 yr old one (45 gal) with potting soil is still going strong. However, pant growth in the 50 gal with garden soil (50 gal) seems to be giving out. I'm planning to tear it down and start over with potting soil.

The key to good results with any soil is having enough healthy plants and otherwise good conditions (adequate light and moderate hardwater) from day one.

The sump with lighting and plants (especially emergent plants) would be perfect for purifying water for cichlids, goldfish, and other plant-eating fish in the main tank. However, I can understand your not wanting to mess with a sump tank at this time.

I agree with all of you that there are many ways to have good tanks. However, the forces of commercialism are powerfully motivated to sell their products (fertilizers, artificial soils, etc). Some of these methods are very successful. However, one must also remember that the natural environment of aquatic plants includes soils, organic sediments, no fertilizers, etc. In my book, I have tried to show how hobbyists can work with Nature rather than against it. This knowledge can be applied to any tank.


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Hello Diana and thank you very much!

I will ofcourse test this soil in a small setup first... since all soils for some strange reason have one or the other thing added, here in my country... don't know why really! As I understand it you're saying that potting soil is just as good as any other soil really?!

thank you for the comment on the sump... My real fear was that the overflow would air off too much CO2 when the water fals down the tube! Again I admit I have no idea how much CO2 a NPT actually produces, and I'm guessing it differs imencely from tank to tank! I have quite alot of experience with building biofilters and I actually found that part of the hobby rather fascinating a couple of years ago. My maine reason was the CO2 thing and the fact that a good running biofilter will compete with the denitrificationprocesses that are - if I understand you right - supposed to happen in the soil, rather than the filter!

So... adding a small filtermat for freeswimming particles and some emergant plants and placing the filter in the window would not present a problem?

I have windows that go all the way from the floor to my ceiling! I can take a photo if you want.

I plan on going amazonstile meaning Neons, angelfish and dwarf cichlids... Many plants ofcourse, but a fair amount of big roots with mosses and ferns.

thanks again for a great book

Brian


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice to hear from Denmark. Thanks for compliments about the book.

I like potting soil (inexpensive and unfertilized), but a good loam soil with well-decomposed organic matter (e.g., compost) is always good.

A picture of your overflow system would be nice. It's hard to say how much CO2 degassing there would be without a picture of the setup. Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the purpose of your overflow. Is it used to skim organic matter off the surface and/or aerate the water? If you can fix it so that there's not a lot of bubbling, it might be fine. If your water is hard enough (bicarbonates as a CO2 source) and you use some hardwater plants in the main tank, the CO2 removal might not be a major problem.

The overflow system reminds me of setting up a pond with a connecting mini-pond to control algae (my book, p. 161). Water from the main pond is pumped into the mini-pond containing emergent and floating plants, which purify the water and remove excess nutrients. The purified water from the mini-pond flows into the main pond. I think some hobbyists on the El Natural forum have done this with sump filters connected to their tanks. They grow houseplants and bamboo in the sump tank. 

Since you've got window light, you could really have fun with this. A well-functioning sump tank would be a major factor in preventing algae, which may cause many more problems than those from CO2 degassing.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

It sounds like you have a saltwater tank hence the need for an overflow/sump setup.
The overflow is just an easy way to move water from your tank into the sump for
filtration.

There's two types of overflow rigs one is inside the tank its usually a rectangular
box that takes up one of the back corners from bottom to nearly the top. Water 
spills over into the overflow and then out of the bottom of the tank via a 1.5" or
2.0" pipe into the sump. The other more common version is a HOB overflow that
uses a small pump to move water into the overflow and then into the sump using
tubing. Which one do you have?

f you have the built in baffle overflow it shouldn't hurt you C02 generation much at all.

- Brad


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Hello

Thank Diana... I've sketched the layout of the tank and biofilter the way I was thinking!




The overflow is really just that. a pipe that goes to the top of the tank, the water you pump from you filter is the amount that overflows back into the filter, simple!









bradac56: Thank you, I know what an overflow is! Frankly I never understood why biofilters should only be used on saltwater tanks... Even Amano will tell you that a well functioning filter is nessecary for optaining good plant growth! I've allways build biofilters for my freshwater tanks! With great results! Again the only reason for my asking, is that I'm uncertain how much the potential degasing of the CO2 will effect the setup!

Anyway I hope this gives you a better picture of what I had in mind!

Brian!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hello Brian,

Thanks for the photos and explanation. You do have some awesome window light potential!

That little sump box right next to the window should be planted, for sure. I would put in a nice thick layer (1-2") of organic soil covered with a little sand. Emergent plants can handle and do better in richer, more organic substrates. Fill it with emergent plants (Ludwigia, Bacopa, Echinodorus, etc) and/or houseplants that will grow fast in sumps under emergent conditions. If algae grows vigorously in the sump, that's fine, since algae in the sump can prevent algae in the main tank. Here's a discussion of plant species used in paludariums (tanks that include emergent growth).

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/38586-el-natural-paludarium-help.html

I'm inclined to think that CO2 degassing might not be too big an issue, especially if you use soil with organic matter (e.g., potting soil) in your sump. That sump will then generate CO2 that will be pumped directly into the tank in a closed system of tubing that should keep the CO2 safely in. The emergent plants in the sump won't deplete CO2, since emergent plants don't use much water CO2. So your little sump could be a biofilter and CO2 generator all-in-one. Nice.

Keep us posted on this. Theoretically, it could work very well.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I have a plant filter on one of my 55 gallon NPTs. I get quite a bit of splashing happening from the return and the plants and fish are all happy. 
Here's the thread on it
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/27979-scheming.html


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Thank you guys... uhmm ladies

I've finally got the tank setup... right now I just have to find the right pice of wood that I wanna stick in there... the one where all the moss and the ferns will go on! Anyway here's a pic of the dry tank!










BTW I'll def go with that sump, since you - Diana - seam to be confirming my every thought about what the pros and cons could be with this kind of setup! I uhmm... just have to build the darn thing first... but it'll come!

Here's another big question for you! Sorry!

I was kinda planing on going soil only... no gravel on top! I know what you've councelled people before on this subject and that you mention taping or masking the soil on back and sides of the tank... but waht would happen if I actually had all of it "showing" so to speak! My maine reason for doing so is simply that I really like the look of peat aquariums, and my little test setup has no gravel either! I was thinking it would lend the hole thing a very natural look! Again I'm aware that the drawbacks are probably bigger than the pros! Not to mention how very hard it'll be to plant new plants!

Dataguru... Thank you very much, I've read that thread, very inspirering and very interesting endeed. And thank you for the input, nothing comes up against real experience!

Here's what one of my other tanks look like 63L roughly 16,6G CO2 injected and HQL lighted. It started as a nice trimed Amano style tank, but I just couldn't help turning it into a more junglelike look... This is what I'm going for with the new setup as well... no harm in a little aquascaping, right?!









Brian


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## Viettxboii (Oct 25, 2007)

pretty,
nice job


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I really like the jungle look. To me not so manicured is more natural looking.


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

orlando... Thank you very much! So very cool stuff you're selling there bro, you do all that yourself? Man I've allways wanted a needle with 2 extensions on it... the coolest thing is that you can mount the bubblecounter directly on the needlewalve! Very sweet stuff bro!

_*Must remaine focused... must! you don't need fancy equipment with NPT tanks... ARRGHHH!*_


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Uhm guys... any thought on the no gravel only soil thing?!?


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Hmmm... I can't seam to edit my replys... I've changed some of the filenames on some of the pics!

Anyway, hardscape done! Enjoy!


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Larsen said:


> Uhm guys... any thought on the no gravel only soil thing?!?


Nothing wrong with that just remember that your stem plants won't hold as well and may
need a bit more work plus your water column will get very cloudy at first as in Fluorite cloudy
and my take longer to clear so be patient and poor your water very carefully.

- Brad


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah thanx Bradac56 I did a little test setup... I'm really amazed at how fast the floating soil resettled actually... I found an old thread about that very subject, there was a mentioning about some gooey stuff forming on the surface of the soil due to bacteria, so I think I'll stik to the soil/gravel concept anyway! I may actually combine it with some fine sand up around the front. I know that DW says to be carefull or even avoid sand, but I plan on using just a thin layer, and it won't be the entire surface, so I hope I'm fine!

Thanx again!


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