# [Wet Thumb Forum]-One 55....OK....One Not So Hot



## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I wrote recently about recurring issues with algae in my 55s that I was not experiencing in my 40, my 10 or my 5gal. tanks.
In the intervening weeks, I have followed the advice of many of you in general and Roger in particular.
The algae was on the wane in both 55s, and then I had to tinker with something new (SeaChem's Equilibrium).
One of them is now looking much cleaner and better, but the other, in the last week or so is re-developing that soft brown/green algae on the plant leaves.
I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm over-dosing it for the amount/type of lighting over it. The 55 that's improved has 2X55 watts CF
(AH Lighting). The one that's going south is lit by 4X40 watts/NO, and I've been dosing both equally. 
Man, has this been a learning experience.
Tomorrow I will do a huge water change in the sickly tank, followed by ZERO FERTS. and then on the weekend I'll do another water change with 1/2 strength ferts. I also added a herd of Otos. 
I figure the plants have to have enough nutrients stored to last the week and that'll give the Otos a chance to clean things up for me.
Feedback on this plan of attack would be helpful.

Len


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I wrote recently about recurring issues with algae in my 55s that I was not experiencing in my 40, my 10 or my 5gal. tanks.
In the intervening weeks, I have followed the advice of many of you in general and Roger in particular.
The algae was on the wane in both 55s, and then I had to tinker with something new (SeaChem's Equilibrium).
One of them is now looking much cleaner and better, but the other, in the last week or so is re-developing that soft brown/green algae on the plant leaves.
I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm over-dosing it for the amount/type of lighting over it. The 55 that's improved has 2X55 watts CF
(AH Lighting). The one that's going south is lit by 4X40 watts/NO, and I've been dosing both equally. 
Man, has this been a learning experience.
Tomorrow I will do a huge water change in the sickly tank, followed by ZERO FERTS. and then on the weekend I'll do another water change with 1/2 strength ferts. I also added a herd of Otos. 
I figure the plants have to have enough nutrients stored to last the week and that'll give the Otos a chance to clean things up for me.
Feedback on this plan of attack would be helpful.

Len


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

hey len, in your experience, what is a better at growing plants, 4 x 40 watt or 2 x 55 watt?

in my experience, keep the phosphates down.... i just got phosphate kits and the tanks that had phosphates of higher than 3 had many many algae problems.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Len, I just searched the archive looking for some background on your original problem and didn't come up with anything. Can you give us a pointer to the original problems and advice? If not, then how about a little more description here?


Roger Miller


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I apologize Roger. I posted this problem on another forum about a month ago. 

A little history. 
I have 5 tanks: a 5, 10, 40, and two 55s. The first three are beautiful with minimal amount of algae. The 55s are a pain in the ***!! 
I'm dosing all at: N=10ppm, P 1.0ppm, K= 15-20ppm. Dosed at water change once a week and checked to maintain at mid-week(except K which only is dosed at water change). 
Traces(Plantex+B) are dosed as follows at water change: 12mls. for the 40 and 55s, and at midweek: 8mls. The 10 gets 5mls. at water change and 5mls. at mid week. The 5 gets 3mls. and 3mls. at mid week. 
The small tanks run from 3watts/gal. for the 40(clean as a whistle), 3watts/gal. for the 10(beautiful), just under 4watts/gal. for the 5(a work of art). One 55 runs 2watts/gal.(CF) and a constant battle to maintain and the other 55 runs 3watts/gal.(NO) and is even more trouble to maintain. All tanks carry a light fish load which are fed sparingly. 
All tanks are injected at 30ppm CO2 consistently. 
Plant loads in all tanks run from heavy to jungle-like. The larger the tank the slightly less plant mass, but all are heavily planted. 
The algae is the 'glass type' algae which seems worst on the Vallisneria, and of course on the Anubia. Also, I had a bout with BBA which is pretty much licked with the addition of SAEs and scrupulous cleaning/pruning. 
Even with the addition of hordes of Otos and now Ancistrus Pecos, I can't seem to get rid of that dark, green crud. 
I've been into planted tanks for a long time, but am wondering if there's just one little thing that I'm missing here. 
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Steve Hampton pointed out some inconsistencies between the dosage in the 5, 10, and 40 and the two 55s and I brought the dosage up in the 55s to correspond, per water volume, with the dosages in the smaller tanks. 


Since that post, the upper 55(2X55CF) has started to clear and is on the mend. The lower 55 was clearing nicely and then I decided to start dosing SeaChem's Equilibrium after water changes. In the small tanks and the upper 55, the EQ has had little effect in producing algae, however the lower 55(110watts NO) I don't think the NO lighting is nearly affective enough to grow the plants, and so the limited growth coupled with dosing the same nutrients has caused another bout with the soft green/brown crud that I'm now experiencing.
As I said in the first post, my intention is to do a large water change today and not dose anything until water change on Sat. At that time I will dose the problem tank at 1/2 the previous dosages. I may cut out the EQ altogether. Too much K between that and the KNO3, and also too much Fe between that and the Plantex Trace that I'm dosing.
Thoughts?

Len


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

Algae Grower(that should be my handle







)-
In answer to your question. Given the choice I would opt for the 2X55CF every time. In fact CF lighting, with good reflectors, is so much more efficient, it's not even close.
In this particular case, P is not the problem.
I have an imbalance, with I think K and N being the problem, between dosing EQ and KNO3. 
It was affecting the fish as well.....stress.
We'll see what Roger and the others think after reading my last post(if they can make sense out of it).
I just did a 70% water change and we'll see how it goes.

Len


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Len,

Getting rid of the EQ and doing a water change probably won't hurt anything. If you had a problem before using the EQ then quite likely it won't really cure much either.

I expect that your 55's have a problem with the balance of light and CO2. In my tanks I found that if I added CO2 at concentrations that were out of proportion with the lighting that it caused my tanks all sorts of algae problems. I would reduce the CO2 back to about 15 ppm in the 55s.

Most of the benefit that your tank will get from adding CO2 comes at about 10 ppm CO2. Higher levels may have some benefit but the returns are not as great. Light levels are the most important single factor in setting an aquariums needs. With high CO2 levels and relatively low light levels most plants can't really use the CO2. There are a few algaes specialized for dim light that do pretty well under the same conditions. They become a problem.


Roger Miller


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

OK, that's a shocker. I had no idea that excess CO2, at lower light levels could actually CAUSE algae issues.
If there is any one thing I've learned over the years, it's that when you have problems, make only one change at a time. I think the greater evil, in this case, is over-dosing nutrients. So I'm going to go with the original plan to cut back on them and I think I'll see improvement.
Then I'll gradually decrease the CO2 in both 55s
and hopefully this will do it.
I'm also a bit skeptical of the value of EQ. It would be great if it only had CA and Mg, but it has way too much K and the Fe puts me way out of whack with my Trace dosing.
I'm going to go back to my Epsom salts and then start dosing the 'Driveway Heat' we talked about when it becomes available here in the northeast this fall.
BTW, I am very impressed with the hood you made for your 55. How 'bout making two for me...LOL!!! Are those T-8s or T-12s, and where exactly did you put the ballasts?

Len


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i dunno if this has been mentioned, but it's a possibility that you have too much iron in your water. When I overdosed flourish or dosed it to a new unestablished tank too early, the hair algae and brown algae took over like crazy.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by djlen:
> OK, that's a shocker. I had no idea that excess CO2, at lower light levels could actually CAUSE algae issues.


YMMV. For quite a while people thought that 15-20 ppm was the best target level for CO2. More recently people have been forcing levels higher and higher. Maybe there are a few plants that are very poorly adapted to submersed growth and will grow poorly or not at all without high CO2. Otherwise I don't see a reason for it.

My own experience was pretty straightforward. I have a 38 gallon tank with a little under 2 watts/gallon. A few years ago I added DIY CO2 on the advice in Kassellman that CO2 would help plants growing under dim light. I didn't see any increase in growth but I saw a huge increase in crud of various kinds. A few months ago I finally determined that things weren't going to change (I'm stubborn) and took the CO2 off. The algae started disappearing immediately; black hairy stuff on the substrate, brown slime, brown fluffy stuff, coarse dark hair algae -- it all disappeared. The plants kept growing at the same rate. I even added a few plants and they grew fine.

So, thought I, the light is controlling plant growth and probably all my fertilizer is going to waste. I stopped adding KNO3 and nothing changed immediately. I stopped adding Flourish and the Bacopa almost immediately started growing dwarfed little leaves. I started dosing Flourish again and the problem went away. The the java fern started getting holes in the leaves so I started dosing KCl. No response yet...

But at any rate, the extra CO2 is gone, the algae is (mostly) gone and the tank looks *way* better then it ever did with CO2.



> quote:
> 
> I'm also a bit skeptical of the value of EQ. It would be great if it only had CA and Mg, but it has way too much K and the Fe puts me way out of whack with my Trace dosing.


I agree with you. I think EQ is supposed to be used to reconstitute RO water or to beef up real soft tap water. But it's formulation is weird; the K and Fe are not needed and in the case of the K probably too high.



> quote:
> 
> BTW, I am very impressed with the hood you made for your 55. How 'bout making two for me...LOL!!! Are those T-8s or T-12s, and where exactly did you put the ballasts?


Thanks. The lamps are T-8 and the ballast is mounted on the back of the hood. I went from 4x40 watt lighting to 4x32 watt lighting and the tank got brighter. That is partly because of the choice of lamps. The Philips ADV850 is a *very* bright 32 watt lamp and I mix two of those with two TL950s. The ADV850 gives a yellowish color which the TL950s improve a little.

Roger Miller


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

OK, and this is not to be argumentative. Just to learn.
How do you explain the fact that the top 55, with slightly smaller plant mass, getting the same(until today) dosing regimen, with the same CO2 content and a very very similar fish load, is clearing and the bottom 55 is not?
The bottom even gets better water circulation.
But the crud seemed to proliferate and now the fish are stressed a bit.
Jeeesh!!....this is starting to sound like the newbie questions I get on other forums







.
I'm starting to think that I really overdosed Fe in this tank. It was getting the Fe in the EQ,the Fe in the Trace mix, and 1ml/day on top of that(all my other tanks are on the same dosage with no problems though). 
If it sounds like I'm groping for answers.....
I am!!
I did the water change, and did turn down the CO2 a bit(will do that gradually) because of the additional fish stress, so we'll see how the tank plays itself out.

Len


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

I have to say Roger is right on the mark here. I've been at the same point with my own 55gal. At lower light levels say 2w/gal and lower I found that 15-18ppm of CO2 was a safe level. When I upped my light to 3w/gal I found that I had to up my levels to 25-30ppm. On my 75gal with 220w at CO2 levels at 25ppm things are good but just adding 40watts more I get algae growth. One thing you can say about light is it is relevant to every thing else in an aquarium.

djllen, how old are the NO bulbs ? I know when I used NO bulbs I had to change change them often.

Hawk


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I change them about every 8 months. They definitely get weak over time, unlike my CFs which don't lose much at all.
Not only is the NO less efficient, but I've got it suspended about 7 - 8" over the the tank which causes the loss of intensity and penetration. Gotta get a decent CF light set from AH for that tank.
I learned something today, with all this back and forth. I will cut the CO2 back gradually and lessen the nutrient dosing, starting this week-end with my regular water change.
Sometimes I wonder exactly what I was thinking.









Len


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