# Turface Pro League Gray issues.



## Dev (May 17, 2010)

Okay, so I've been having trouble with this stuff turning my column black for a couple of months now. I admit I didn't try very hard to fix it at first because I was so ticked off with all the trouble I went through to get all of the materials together for this tank in the first place, and then this. My fiance thinks that it may be the acidity of the peat we put down beneath the turface, underneath plastic egg crate, causing the dye to separate/break down/something, we haven't tested this yet apart from lime juice added to some virgin turface turning black whereas water remained clear after four rinses. Anyhow, I'll post some photos in chronological order explaining process up to where it lies at this point. Sorry for the reflections where they appear, they were pretty impossible to avoid. 
If anyone has any idea as to what the issue might be or any possible solutions, please share. I'll try just about anything now.

Here's the actual product:


This is the tank as it began, full of dry turface:


Here it is after stirring the substrate gently to scape. The water was clear before this.


Top of the substrate after stirring more. The bubbles had a metallic sheen.


Top after skimming the metallic bubbles off:


I then rinsed everything thoroughly, about 4 inches of substrate at a time in a bucket. It took nearly 3 days (maybe 20 hours actual work) to get it all clear when rinsed aggressively with a hose, and nothing short of abusing it by hand would get the water to cloud. I thought that would be good enough and put it back in the tank, filled, drained, then filled again gently. There was a slight fog that hovered over the substrate, but otherwise everything was clear (excuse the actinic!):




Then, I turned on the XP3 and Rio 1400... none of the substrate is being disturbed by either one, but this still happened:


For once the picture actually gives it more credit than it deserves, since yet again I can no longer see the wall behind the tank. Any ideas/suggestions/whatnot?


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

problem---Turface Pro League Gray
solution ----- Aqua Soil

cheers


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## Dev (May 17, 2010)

Aquasoil would definitely solve all of this tanks problems. It's due to be an apisto grow-out/holding tank, the water here is practically liquid rock, and there's no way I'm sticking peat inside the tank itself again. The only problem there is the cost; it's always something! :yield:


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## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

So much for turface being the exact same thing as ap.com's substrate as so many folks claim.


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## edwardn (Nov 8, 2008)

Franzi said:


> So much for turface being the exact same thing as ap.com's substrate as so many folks claim.


I have no idea what is ...'ap.com's' substrate, but I have issues with a regular Turface, which I use as a substrate covered by flint gravel in my tank.

These plants just grow like there would be no next day!!!!

That is the problem I have with Turface....


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## Dev (May 17, 2010)

That's the kind of problem I was expecting to have edwardn. Lots of people have used turface with no issues, this seems like just a fluke scenario. I just want to know what went wrong, even if the whole works has to be dumped out anyway.

We had to order it in through the local john deere, so I don't really want to ask them to order tons of the normal turface in too just for another couple of bags. If this can't be fixed it'll have to be sand or kitty litter.


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## edwardn (Nov 8, 2008)

Dev said:


> That's the kind of problem I was expecting to have edwardn. Lots of people have used turface with no issues, this seems like just a fluke scenario. I just want to know what went wrong, even if the whole works has to be dumped out anyway.
> 
> We had to order it in through the local john deere, so I don't really want to ask them to order tons of the normal turface in too just for another couple of bags. If this can't be fixed it'll have to be sand or kitty litter.


I don't understand why the peat? It is enough to have Turface ( I would insist on covering it with small gravel: http://www.redflint.com/filter_gravel.htm, but this is the way I do...) for a great root system just about on any aquatic plant and on succulents (!) as well.

Try again without peat - may be you will have a ...clear answer as to what and why. You can 'prime' Turface with fertilizers prior to placing it in you tank, and it will pay you with results for a long time. I fertilize only water column, and I don't salt the water with fertilizers using only fraction of what the experts recommend.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

i know huh. aquasoil is so expensive. id really like to try some of that oliver knott stuff but the shipping is expensive too.

hmmm


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Charlene,

Here is my 45 gallon with Turface Pro League Grey on 1/17/10:










And here is what the same area looked like at the end of March:


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## Dev (May 17, 2010)

edwardn, the peat was to soften our hard tap water to something more suitable for apistogrammas. No doubt it is a great substrate on its own. All of the peat has been removed, but the pigment is still clouding the water column. Same results with turface that hasn't been exposed to peat when an acid is introduced. I'll have to do some more testing.

Roy, your tank looks great! The turface I have is much lighter than that for some reason. Maybe it's not the right stuff..?
To show the color; this was before the last water clouding: 

We ordered gray, they said it was gray, but the bag doesn't say "gray" anywhere on it. Even if it is just regular turface though, I'm still not sure why it would be giving this reaction.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Dev,

Your Turface looks like the "natural buff color", not the Grey. I don't know why it should be clouding the water column however.


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## asukawashere (Mar 11, 2009)

Regular Turface Pro League is a component/full substrate in like half my tanks... I've never had a problem with it. On initial set-up it does tend to cloud the water a little, but that dust settles out with a little time and gentle water flow. 

I, too, live in an area with some obscenely hard, liquid rock water, and my solution to dwarf cichlid keeping was to get some shellies. Not quite as fancy as the Apistos, but a lot of fun in their own right and they love the hard water  They also enjoy moving piles of turface that they deem to be too close to their shells and flowerpots. :mrgreen: And they don't actually tend bother plants unless said plants are in a spot that they decide is obstructing their doorways... planting a shellie tank isn't natural looking, and often requires a "live and let live" attitude, but it's definitely doable...

Just my two cents, FWIW


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## Dev (May 17, 2010)

asukawashere, I've actually thought about turning it into an african cichlid tank, but my fiance flipped out a bit at the notion and to be honest I need it for holding my soft-water species between spawns, and juvies before sale anyway. That sounds like a fun tank you've got set up though, shellies have some neat behavior. 

As suspected the acidity seems to be the problem. I'm guessing either the CEC took it on or there are still particles of peat in the mix. Doesn't really matter, it all has to be trashed either way.

For the sake of anyone else who may find themselves in the same boat, here's the test: 
Cup #1 is tap water; Cup #2 is distilled; Cup #3 is HCl. 
Each one has 40mL dry turface and 160mL liquid. Each was rinsed 3 times with 100 mL of its respective liquid before any of them were clear enough to note a difference.

You can't tell from that photo, but if you look closer at #1 and #2, you can see the difference in color:

And #1 vs #3:


I'm not by any means saying that any sort of turface can't or hasn't worked in soft-water for other people. Not sure what's with the batch I got, but I can't see any other suitable explanation for what happened here.
Anyhow, thanks everyone for your input!


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

You are sure seeing something that has not been a problem for me, too. 

Put Turface (bag looks the same) or Soil Master Select in the tank. 
Wet it enough to be able to plant, but not puddle above the substrate. 
Make hills and valleys, add driftwood, rocks... 
Plant, misting as needed. 
Put a plate or plastic bag over the substrate and fill by pouring the water in slowly (1 gallon per minute max.) onto the bag. Let it seep over the edges into the substrate. 

When I do it that way, even with UNRINSED substrates, I get only a little clouding like the picture on page 1 'before you turned on the filter'. 

When I turn on the filter there is not additional clouding. On the contrary, that slight haze goes away in about 24 hours. 

Just in case there is something going on with the parameters can you post the results of all the tests you have? 

Tap water and tank. GH, KH, pH, and so on.


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## Dev (May 17, 2010)

Diana K, 
When I first set the aquarium up I followed the typical procedure you just laid out there, apart from the planting. I figured since I had a week or so before trim time on the other tanks (the clippings were how I intended to plant this tank), I may as well fill it up and test the equipment.
After filling for the first time I ended up neglecting it for about a week before coming back to it. When I found the time to finish the set-up, I pushed a little bit of the substrate with the stick you see in the photos and a cloud of black came up, along with the metallic bubbles pictured, so I wasn't about to stick anything alive in there until I figured out what was going on.

I also have never seen additional clouding when turning on a filter before. The good news is the problem seems to have fixed itself now. Since my last post I just left everything to run; the water cleared a couple of days ago, and stirring a bit of the substrate today didn't cause any clouding. Because I'm new here and people may suspect I don't know any better, I suppose I should note that I do know that stirring substrate is usually a bad idea. I have aquasoil in half of my tanks, I'm aware of what fast fills and aggressive handling can do to sensitive substrates.

My test kits are long expired, but in the few years I've been here the tap has ranged from 6-8 KH, 9-12 GH, and 7.6-8.3 pH; we're on a rotating well system. About 1/3 of the substrate was peat, so the water in the tank was probably soft and below neutral by the time I touched the substrate again.


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