# eBay Dispute -- How strict is the wording in the auctions?



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I recently sold some red cherry shrimp on eBay and the auction description listed them as:



> You are bidding on 15 Red Cherry Shrimp plus 3 FREE in case of DOAs.
> They will have some plants to hang onto during shipping!
> They will range from 1/4" juveniles to adult shrimp.
> ...etc...


When the buyer received the shrimp, they filed a dispute with PayPal claiming that there were no adult shrimp in the batch and that due to the wording of the auction, they were entitled to a refund.

The buyer claimed:



From Buyer - Jeff XXXX -- 9/25/2008 19:01 PDT said:


> In auction seller quoted "They will range from 1/4" juveniles to adult shrimp." Tin there was not one adult in the shipment nothing larger than 1/4 inch adults are 3/4 to1 inch


I've sold shrimp on this forum as well as eBay before, and I've always shipped out shrimp larger than 1/4". Most people know (and I informed the buyer) that smaller shrimp handle shipping and acclimation better and that's why they're shipped, rather than adults.

Have I always included adults in smaller shipments -- not always, just depends on what I can catch that day. I'm not saying that there was an adult in his shipment. There may or may not have been, but I'm 100% certain that every single one of those shrimp were larger than 1/4".

The money isn't the big deal, but rather the audacity of the guy to claim that there was "nothing larger than 1/4 inch" in the shipment. Claiming that I never sent any adult shrimp is one thing -- and I admit that if he claimed that, then he'd probably be entitled to a partial refund because of my wording on the auction description -- but claiming that there was nothing larger than 1/4"?

I wonder where the dispute is going to go now.


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## Logan's Daddy (May 3, 2008)

Buyer protection policies are pretty strong, You should try fighting it, but the wording in your auction may make it difficult. I sell quite a bit on eBay and my dad used to make a full time job of it. One thing I learned from his experiences is to be rock solid on your wording, there are a lot of... _less than honest_ folks out there who will try to take advantage of any little slip up like that. There are also plenty of less than honest sellers which is why the protection for the buyers is so strong. 
I wish you luck, disputes are usually a long process and usually end in favor of the buyer.

By the way, you can save yourself a lot of trouble in the future by changing the wording from "They *will* range from 1/4" juveniles to adult shrimp." to "They *may* range from 1/4" juveniles to adult shrimp."


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I've revised the auction terms for future auctions.

"Shrimp will be at least 1/4" inch in size."

I'm just pissed off he stated that "nothing larger than 1/4"" in his dispute to PayPal, which is a BLATANT lie.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Jeff said:


> I received these alive but they were
> all very small the auction said there "They will range from 1/4" juveniles to adult shrimp. "
> Did I receive the wrong batch?
> 
> Jeff





epicfish said:


> Hi there,
> 
> If you measure them from head to tail, they're all at least 1/4", or longer.
> 
> Thanks!





Jeff said:


> Yes but there was no adults?
> 
> Jeff





epicfish said:


> I try to ship larger, young shrimp. The reason I don't ship many adults is because they do not do as well during shipping. If one large adult dies, the decaying tissue releases a large amount of ammonia in the water, poisoning the rest of the shrimp, possibly causing the entire shipment to die.
> 
> Please refer to the site here: http://www.planetinverts.com/Why Ship Young Shrimp.html which explains it in more detail.
> 
> ...





Jeff said:


> My point is there were no adults which I was going
> to put in my guppy tank. Then grow the rest out.
> very miss leading auction. ery disappointed.
> 
> Jeff


...and then he filed the dispute.

I don't post PMs, but since no one had any clue who the buyer is and there is no personal identifying information, I think it should be OK.

And yes, I know I used a PlanetInverts article, let's not go there. It was the first Google link I found.


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## Erirku (Oct 5, 2004)

IMO, the guy should be happy with the shrimp he purchased. They were within the size range. The younger the better, because it is a longer lifespan for the purchaser! I know your wording specifically said, "1/4 to adults". Thats where it becomes a legal issue. Sorry this happened to you, but just watch what you write and say to people. These days its all about a quick buck!


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

You might want to offer him a partial refund to try and satisfy him, it will also make you look better in the eye's of ebay when they look at the dispute, if he refuses say a 15% refund then he looks like an ass that is trying to scam you. after all he got 3 more than he bought if they all arrived alive. Just make sure you make the offer through the dispute process to make sure ebay knows about it.

Brian


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

E-bay has made it very difficult for the legitimate sellers anymore, so there are a lot of people who are getting so fed up and just selling less, if at all.

IMO, your wording does not imply in any way that he'll be getting some adult shrimp, even though they would be within the range of possibilities.

The idea of offering a partial refund sounds to me like about your best option to keep your rep clear, and another one of those difficult buyers from causing too much trouble.

Sorry to hear of your difficutlies....


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

I'd offer to ship him a few larger ones (for free), to prevent a neg. feedback - then never sell to him again.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

From Buyer - Jeff said:


> 9/25/2008 19:01 PDT
> 
> In auction seller quoted "They will range from 1/4" juveniles to adult shrimp." Tin there was not one adult in the shipment nothing larger than 1/4 inch adults are 3/4 to1 inch





From Seller - epicfish said:


> 9/26/2008 10:47 PDT
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...





From Buyer - Jeff said:


> 9/26/2008 15:09 PDT
> 
> What I really want is the adults I understad that there would be small ones.
> 
> I got all small ones basicaly they will get eaten in my tank. Your auction is very missleading.





From Seller - epicfish said:


> 9/26/2008 15:26 PDT
> 
> I can ship you 4 full-sized adults for the price of shipping, which is $6. Please note that I cannot guarantee live arrival if I am going to ship these adult shrimp.
> 
> Thanks.


We'll see.

If he pushes the issue, I'll offer him a full refund if he ships me back the shrimp and they're still alive.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm not surprised by your ebay experience. I've noticed since they changed the feedback rules buyers complain about the smallest of things, which seems to be the issue in your case. Good luck!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

This is more annoying than anything. :crazy: :frusty:



Jeff said:


> *# 9/26/2008 16:07 PDT - Buyer: I'm just disapointed $23 and all I got was fish food for my guppies.
> *


:-|



> Jeff has escalated this dispute to a claim...


:jaw:

Sure, I admit it, the wording could have been construed in a way different than how I originally intended. I offered him a 20% partial refund, no go. I offered to ship him more adults for shipping, no go.

Next thing I know, I'll need to put a lawyer on retainer to draft my eBay auctions for me.


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## fshfanatic (Aug 7, 2008)

Dude I am sorry to hear this. I have bought RCS from you twice and I was always pleased. 

I would stay away from ebay. 

I only buy filter pads on ebay for my ehiems. I have a seller that is awesome. Other than that, not worth the risk. Sorry you got screwed. The seller always gets screwed.


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## modster (Jun 16, 2007)

I think you should just fight dirty with dirty. Challenge him on the definition of adult. Request pictures with the shrimp next to a straight edge. If he can prove your shrimps are smaller than 1/4", then say the 1/4" includes the tentacles. I know it sounds lame, but I think he is just unhappy that the shrimps got eaten.


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## kiwik (Apr 3, 2007)

i really hope karma exists...


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

kiwik said:


> i really hope karma exists...


You and I both!

Thanks fshfanatic, modster, and everyone who's commented. I'm just waiting it out. It's not the money, but the principle. (Do such things exist anymore? -- at least on these forums they do!)


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Epicfish,

I think that you need to find out a standard way of dealing with issues like that. I've been selling fish on the net for a few months now and no matter what you do you will find that some customers have special needs. 

Overall you need to strive to have a good reputation. You can't avoid a few negative situations. But if you look at it in a perspective maybe you will see that there are more than 10 good happy customers (or even more) for every 1 that is not completely satisfied. Looking at things that way helps a lot.

I agree - the money, the refund, is not everything.

--Nikolay


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> I'm not surprised by your ebay experience. I've noticed since they changed the feedback rules buyers complain about the smallest of things, which seems to be the issue in your case. Good luck!


That's exactly right, and it's so unfair. If you've ever read the discussion boards at E-bay, people are really ticked of at their new policies, with good reason.

I've already been stung once since the change (non-paying buyer that forced me to file a lousy dispute) and they just get off with a free ride and an untarnished rep.... #-o

I hope this all works out for you in the end. If he does leave you negative feedback, you can at least post a reply to it so other buyers will know he's one of those trouble makers.


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## bs6749 (Dec 23, 2007)

I don't see what you did wrong. You specified a range and as long as the shrimp were at least 1/4" long you have nothing to worry about. Plus, it was a good point when someone already mentioned that an adult is not necessarily full grown. RCS are adults (at least males) when they are roughly a half inch. They are capable of breeding at this size and if they are capable of reproduction, they are adults right? Inform him that you actually did him a favor by sending him "young adults" so that he will get the most breeding cycles out of all of them. Do not refund him one penny and offer to send him adults only if he pays for them and pays the shipping. I don't know what your shrimp look like but I'd charge him at least $2 per full size adult, more for females.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Thats why I absolutely hate selling on EBAY or Aquabid. There are many people out there that will just nitpick you to death, and then leave you negative feedback. After years and years of not getting one single negative feedback on aquabid I suddenly get three negatives in a period of a few months last year over stupid things.... like my variegated Anubias was a "class 4 variegation instead of a class one variegation" or some stupid nonsense... so what does he say in the feedback? "misleading, not as advertised, dishonest, stay away from this seller"

As far as plants go, hobbyits seem to be staying away from the auctions now and sticking to the forums like this one to sell their plants. Its just the auction "stores" selling plants there now, and they are starting to disappear too.

In the forums its more intimate and everybody knows everybody, (more or less) so people aren't so nitpicky on either side, and keep their complaints to themselves, even the more serious complaints.



> You can't avoid a few negative situations. But if you look at it in a perspective maybe you will see that there are more than 10 good happy customers (or even more) for every 1 that is not completely satisfied. Looking at things that way helps a lot.


Wow, you finally understand Niko. I've been saying that for years.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm late to the party, but, my two cents: The ad copy was accurate. You offered shrimp that might range from all 1/4" to all full size adults. The latter would be a bad deal unless they produced babies real quickly, but the former would be more likely to survive shipping and introduction to the new tank, and would live longer, producing more offspring. I bought some red cherry shrimp from someone here, as I recall, and it was a mix of sizes, with mostly smaller ones. I was neither disappointed nor delighted - it was fine with me whatever sizes they were because of the good price, the difficulty, as I saw it, of getting them to me still alive, and my lack of enough knowledge to know which would be best for me. I dumped all of them in a guppy tank, and before long had over 100 shrimp, always with very tiny ones in the tank. I doubt that this guy's guppies ate all of his, unless he had no plants in the tank for them to hide in.

Ebay is getting to be no fun for me as a buyer, just to look at the other side. My last two purchases were with sellers who refused to acknowledge my emails, one seller even refused to say what the shipping cost would be, so I finally just ignored the whole transaction. The other, most recent, advertised quick shipping - "it will arrive before you even know it"- was shipping from my state, and I had to pay for 3 day UPS shipping. It took 10 days to receive and no response to 2 emails until after I received it. I very rarely give anyone negative ratings, if I ever have, so I just don't rate transactions like that.

Todays SPECIAL was a penny a paragraph!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Yep, I've been shying away from eBay recently as well. sigh.

Just a little update.

I told him I'd give him a full refund if he shipped the shrimp back. Well, what do you know? He refused...and gave me a negative feedback. No surprise there.

On a brighter note, my auction descriptions state "Shrimp will be at least 1/4" long from head to tail" now. 

Thanks for all the advice!


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Sorry about the negative feedback. I hope you at least went back and left a reply to his feedback to explain that you tried everything to make it right. That way the buyer won't look so untarnished either.....:boxing:

I'm really annoyed with this whole new E-bay scenario, so I want the seller to get every punch in they can, when they're in the right.

I'm already seeing a decline in listings when I do a search for something specific, so hopefully E-bay is going to get bit in the butt for turning their back on the plethora of complaints from legitimate sellers.....


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

hoppycalif said:


> Ebay is getting to be no fun for me as a buyer, just to look at the other side. My last two purchases were with sellers who refused to acknowledge my emails, one seller even refused to say what the shipping cost would be, so I finally just ignored the whole transaction. The other, most recent, advertised quick shipping - "it will arrive before you even know it"- was shipping from my state, and I had to pay for 3 day UPS shipping. It took 10 days to receive and no response to 2 emails until after I received it. I very rarely give anyone negative ratings, if I ever have, so I just don't rate transactions like that.


In all fairness on the other side, I've run into a couple incidences like that myself. I finally left neutral feedback for one after he advertised an OEM camera battery and it was just one of the cheap knock-offs everyone else was selling, plus it took forever to ship. He jumped all over me and hounded me to death to withdraw the feedback so it wouldn't tarnish his reputation. It's too bad when the bad guys have to come in and make it mean for everyone else.... out:


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

JanS said:


> In all fairness on the other side, I've run into a couple incidences like that myself. I finally left neutral feedback for one after he advertised an OEM camera battery and it was just one of the cheap knock-offs everyone else was selling, plus it took forever to ship. He jumped all over me and hounded me to death to withdraw the feedback so it wouldn't tarnish his reputation. It's too bad when the bad guys have to come in and make it mean for everyone else.... out:


I encountered one shipper who charged me 19 dollars for first class then slapped a 3 dollar stamp on. I left neutral and he got mad at me.

Anyway, the buyer should have been thrilled to get juvies. they won't breed right away, but they adapt to your environment, ship well and live longer. Sounds like someone was just wanting a free meal.

Here's an idea. Take a Photograph of each shipment you do, with receipt and keep that on file. It might take more work, but will protect you from people who do their word against yours...

That sucks, he wants his money and he wants his shrimp. 

Aside of ebay shrimp... try ebay toys..
Ebay has made it tougher for buyers to get genuine stuff in transformers collecting. Any auctions with the work knock off in it are removed. Double edged sword. If you are wanting knock offs, you can't get them, and if you want genuine toys, there's a greater chance of getting a knock off as the honest sellers can't sell them. Does that make sense? its 5am right now.


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