# Understanding dosing perfectly



## kshitij (Dec 23, 2009)

Hello everyone,

My first post(In APC and UKAPS) and a mojor question on planted tank:
How to understand dosing perfectly according to your local water chemistry ?

I have read various threads and articles related to dosing but all fail to perfect it and am not able to get very healthy plants .With a lot of reading and help i am able to understand doing to a certain extent and my dosing routine and quantity is:

Tank is 55 gallon which is planted not very densly , but has many varities of mosses.The tank is 45 days old.
Fishes are just 5 siamese algae eater and some red cherry shrimps.(will add black neons soon).
Specifications are:
substrate - Laterite + sera substrate + litte peat + gravel sand.
Light - Philips fluorescent x 4 tubes = 2.6 watt/gallon. 8-10 hours a day.6500k.
Filter - External canister filter which has capacity of 1200 Litre/hour.
Co2 - DIY co2 diffused therough diffusor.

KNO3 - 40gms + 500 ml water. 
K2SO4 - 40gms + 500 ml water
KH2PO4 - 15gms + 500ml water
"Fertilon combi - 15gms + 1000ml water

KNO3- 15 ml X 3 times 
K2SO4 - 15ml X 3 times 
KH2PO4 - 3 ml X 3 times 
"Fertilon combi " which contains the following mix:
4.0% maganese
4.0% Fe (iron)
1.5% Cu-(copper)
1.5% Zinc
0.5% Boron
0.10% Molybdenum
9.0% Magnssium
3.0% Sulphur - 10 ml X 3 times a week.


The schedule is:
Sunday - 50% water changes + dose macros 
Monday - dose micros
Tuesday - Dose macros
Wednesday - Dose Micros
Thursday - Dose Macros
Friday - Dose Micros
Saturday - Rest Day

The tank history is:
When it was set up i was just dosing some sera fertilizer therefore i was not getting response at all. I was just dosing 2 ml - 4 ml sera fertilizer everyday also the tank was not densly planted at all.Naturally due to this the tank developed various kinds of algae and at last after around 1 month i had to redo the tank. At this point i did a blackout for 3 days and removed all the water and let the substrate dry out and gave a bleach dip to all plants, stones , and wood.Till this time there were no fishes at all.

Later after i started my doing routine as stated above Java ferns and "some" plants are showing good response and are growing but still the plants in my tank are not so green and many plants have lost its colour and are showing some leaves are showing up yellow colour . Was little bit happy because some response and growth is better than algae.

Even a new canister filter was installed at this stage and the siamese algae eaters and RCS were inrtoduced after 20 days of redoing the tank.

Now my major doubts are that why are the plants not so lush green in my tank also the growth is also not good. Many plants are showing pale leaves and the growth is very slow. Do i need any more chemicals to be added to my dosing routine ? . My local water already has calcium in it (i can see white calcium layers when the vessels dry out in the kitchen).
Therefore wat other chemicals are lacking in my dosing routine and where am i making a mistake ??

Asking all experts for help ??


----------



## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

Your tank is only 45 days old. Keep a consistent regime and ignore day to day "readings" of the plants and mosses. Keep up your water changes, keep CO2 consistent and well-dispersed, let things balance themselves out. (though personally I'd bite the bullet and go pressurized instead of DIY CO2). Give it about 2-3 more months. All will be good. Patience.


----------



## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

Since you have 2.6 watts per gallon, I would advise going to pressurized CO2. I don't think yeast based CO2 would be sufficient for a 55 gallon with 2.6 watts per gallon. If you can't do pressurized att this time, I suggest lowering the wattage by half. If you have mosses and Java ferns, that would still be plenty of light.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

You will not find a 'perfect' recipe for dosing. Each tank even within the same house, is different. The best you can do is to monitor the plants and the test results, and be patient so that any changes you decide on have time to work before you decide to change something again.

I use DIY CO2, even on large tanks, but it involves several bottles that are changed out frequently. But then, most of my tanks are right around 2 watts per gallon. 
If you can handle pressurized, go for it, especially with that much light.


----------



## kshitij (Dec 23, 2009)

@ rich815 : Actually the tank is more than 3 months old bro , but after i did the blackout and drier the substrate the tank comes upto 2 months old currrently. I shall install another DIY co2. Thanks

@bosmahe1 : I don't want to decrease the lightning bro, because that shall decrease the growth rate also therefore another co2 shall be added.

@Diana K : I understand that you can't perfect the dosing [like very accurate] but still i wan't to come atleast close to perfection so that i get some results.Will increase co2.

I still think there is something missing in my dosing routine, maybe some chemical ?


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

As is you're dosing about 10ppm NO3, .9ppm PO4, and 16ppm K+. Add on maybe about 15% for hardscape/plant/substrate displacement. This is a bit lean; you could easily get away with doubling your KNO3 and KH2PO4 dosing. K+ would be sufficient without increasing the K2SO4 dosing.

Your copper levels are high in that mix. By the time you get enough iron into your tank, odds are you'll be hitting copper toxicity for the fauna. Find a new micro/trace source. You're dosing so little right now that it may not be a problem, and your substrate may carry you for a year or two. You'd be better off with more iron in the column as well though, at least if you're going for compressed CO2. Keep an eye on your cherry shrimp; they'll be your best indicators.


----------



## kshitij (Dec 23, 2009)

Hello Philosophos,
I have already incresed the dosing of Kno3 by 50% and k2so4 by 30%. For the micro part i am afraid about the copper levels then  , i shall find another source of micro asap , also should i dose iron seperately into the water coloum (by the way wats the indication for lack of iron in plants ?) ? maybe i am lacking in that , so i shall introduce iron in my dosing routine and see the difference.I have added another Bottle of DIY co2, Also i did not understand this "Keep an eye on your cherry shrimp; they'll be your best indicators." how will the RCS help ? 

Thankyou :-D


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

k****ij said:


> Hello Philosophos,
> I have already incresed the dosing of Kno3 by 50% and k2so4 by 30%. For the micro part i am afraid about the copper levels then  , i shall find another source of micro asap , also should i dose iron seperately into the water coloum (by the way wats the indication for lack of iron in plants ?) ? maybe i am lacking in that , so i shall introduce iron in my dosing routine and see the difference.I have added another Bottle of DIY co2, Also i did not understand this "Keep an eye on your cherry shrimp; they'll be your best indicators." how will the RCS help ?
> 
> Thankyou :-D


You need other micros to still have iron uptake (manganese is tied to it I believe) so dosing extra iron won't help much until you can dose all of your micros/trace. Many plants are happy with .1ppm Fe, but at the same time a ton of them also go for luxury uptake and will continue to benefit all the way up to about 8ppm from what I've read in journals. Personally I like to push my iron up around the .75-1ppm range.

If copper becomes toxic, your cherry shrimp will be the first to react to it; if shrimp start to randomly die off, suspect the copper first in this case.

If you can get CSM+B for micros, use that. Even flourish trace isn't too bad.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Hi k****ij. I think you have most nutrient concepts down but your posts read as if you're having trouble tying it together, and so I hope this post is of help to you.

I think your first adjustment is to not think of your dosing as ml's out of the bottle but rather as concentrations (parts per million - ppm - moving forward) for each target nutrient. For example, per the Fertilator you are adding about 7ppm weekly for your NO3 dosage from KNO3. (Likely Philosophous's good rounding/guestimation is the source of his 10ppm NO3 estimate -- ballpark is good for this.) As stated, this is very low for a CO2 injected tank with adequate lighting. While you've said your plant mass is small, I suspect that 7ppm NO3 per week was able to get you by but now N has become (one of) your limiting nutrient(s). If this was my tank I'd probably have a ~20ppm target for NO3 input per week. In other words, while you'd already increased dosing by some percentage, I'd triple your stated doses above.

Sounds a little scary, right? Keep in mind your posted method (EI) limits maximum concentrations with that 50% water change. With an input of 20ppm NO3 weekly (~7ppm NO3 per dose), your tank will never exceed 40ppm NO3 from fertilizer input even with no plant growth. This is a more than reasonable target and I wouldn't even bother building up to that dose and instead use it on the next Macro day. Likewise, adjust PO4 from KH2PO4 accordingly. (Again, think in terms of ppm, though I think you're pretty okay here.)

_Generally_ yellow or poor growth in older leaves are a macronutrient (C, N, P, K) while yellow or poor growth is a micronutrient (Fe, etc) deficiency. _Generally_ whenever one sees deficiency one should inspect CO2 first as it is the most likely cause (~40% of plant mass). _Annecdotally_, when many of us adjust any dry fertilizer we also have a habit of increasing CO2 at the same time assuming no fauna are stressed.

Most folks do not take time to measure all micronutrients and instead use Fe as a proxy for micronutrient levels when using prepackaged mixes. I don't see anything inherently wrong with your trace mix and, like above, would simply suggest dosing more of it if these issues you describe appear in new growth.

But, I'd like to restress that while the math of calculating tank input and using water changes to limit max concentrations are relatively easy and provide good general concentration targets and ranges for the majority of tanks out there, our ecosystem (aquariums) are much more complicated than that. Niko's got a great series of threads going on in the General forum you (we all) should check out, especially the one on Chemical Oxygen Demand (COD) as it reminds us there's a whole lot of variables we, at best, munge and, at worst, ignore when trouble shooting issues in our tanks.

In other words, getting dosing (the math, watching the plants) down perfectly is only a big chunk of having a great tank. You could do a lot of what we're discussing here eyeballing doses and keeping your chakras aligned. Don't worry and keep asking questions 

Philosophos,

Something to keep in mind is that at 1.0ppm Fe from CSM+B you're adding over 0.2ppm Cu. (CSM+B is ~7% Fe and ~1.5% Cu.) Most anyone who feels heavy metals are toxic to shrimp would agree those levels are toxic. So why are your shrimp okay? Maybe it doesn't matter so much? 

<3


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Remember also that some of all the nutrients are coming in from fish food. Test the current levels in the tank to see where you are with whatever tests are available. You might fine tune the fertilizer dosing based on water tests. 

This is not testing the materials that may be available in the substrate, of course. So even if the water tests show a deficiency in something, look at the plants, too. If the plants have another source of some minerals they will not be deficient, even if a particular nutrient is not available from the water column. 

A substrate with a high cationic exchange capacity might grab all the iron, for example, out of the water as fast as you add it. The plants can still get the iron from the soil, but the water will test deficient in iron. 
Poor reds in red colored plants are one possible suggestion that iron might be low, but low light will not allow the red coloring to show up, even if there is a good supply of iron. 
Most deficiencies are like that: While any one indicator (poor leaf color, deformed tips...) might suggest something, the answer is more often a combination of things, perhaps a deficiency or oversupply of something else (or more than one thing) contributes to what looks like a deficiency of a certain mineral.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

wet said:


> per the Fertilator you are adding about 7ppm weekly for your NO3 dosage from KNO3.


You really have to watch how you use the fertilator. It's not always right (though it has improved lately), and it can cheat you out of learning your own math. I use it as a method for double checking work, then investigate discrepancies.

I figured it out originally with a calculator and some rounded numbers from memory but In this case my formula for a spreadsheet (with some added brackets for easy viewing) looks like this:

=((40000*62.0049/101.103)/(500+40/2.109)*15*3)/(208/100*85)
=12.03131305

(40000*62.0049/101.103) describes how much NO3 is in 40 grams of KNO3.

/(500+40/2.109) divides that amount into 500ml, with correction for the space that 40 grams of KNO3 takes up when added to 500ml of DI H2O as was stated in the OP.

*15*3 is for the dosing

/(208/100*85) calculates the column in L minus 15% for substrate, hardscape, etc. Without this, the formula yeilds a level of NO3 as 10.22661609ppm, which was my original estimate without calculating hardscape.



wet said:


> Something to keep in mind is that at 1.0ppm Fe from CSM+B you're adding over 0.2ppm Cu. (CSM+B is ~7% Fe and ~1.5% Cu.) Most anyone who feels heavy metals are toxic to shrimp would agree those levels are toxic. So why are your shrimp okay? Maybe it doesn't matter so much?


CSM+B is .09% Cu and 6.53% Fe:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/plants/Podio_Fertilizer_Comparison_Chart.html

And I dose roughly 1/2 of my Fe from CSM+B, the rest is from separate addition of chelated iron. My resulting copper level is roughly 0.005ppm, with ND levels from tap. RCS find their toxicity in around .42ppm of CuSO4 (check the EPA ecotox database) which is about 1/3 to 1/4 Cu by weight depending on anhydrous or pentahydrate, so we'll say .1ppm Cu. I stay pretty far back from that level.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Re Cu percent mass: my mistake. I used Miller's MicroPlex's Cu from memory and Plantex's Fe from memory. 

Accounting for the volume of KNO3 in the dilution is slick -- I've never seen anyone do that in aquaria before. But, shouldn't you be subtracting that volume from the container? In other words, if my 40 grams KNO3 takes up a mathematically significant amount of space, wouldn't that mean each mL of diluted solution should have _more_ KNO3 and not less? In other words, should it not be the dosing container _minus_ the volume of KNO3?


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If you count what percentage of you is in a group of 10 people, do you subtract yourself, add double your self, or just count yourself as 1 person? Are you included as one of those 10 persons?

I'm only compensating in this case because 500ml of water is being added to 40g of KNO3, rather than being topped up to create a 500ml solution as many of us do.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Respectfully, I don't understand your analogy and am more confused by the method.

If I am counting myself as a percentage of a group of 10 people, I count myself once, account for the other 9 people, and then look at the group of 10. This is analogous to the method I thought you were using: we have a total of 10 people, and now I must account for how much I take up. (Your analogy works when we are dealing strictly with volume in some finite space, and I need to know how much I -- say my name is "KNO3" -- uses in that finite space, and how much the other 9 guys -- all named "H2O" -- use in that finite space.)

But in solution we only care about grams of chemical over amount of DI water, no? If your calculation is that _exactly_ 500mL DI is being added to 40g KNO3 and transferred to some container that can hold both volumes (the water and the KNO3), then why are we calculating for the volume of KNO3 when calculating the concentration of solution? At this point total volume of solution is not important but rather mass of chemical (KNO3) above volume of solute (H2O). Why is the adjustment you used (perhaps better explained by including units?) necessary in this case? Why is the _volume_ of KNO3 relevant and not just the _mass_ of KNO3 when I am using a known volume of water?

(Of course, these values are so little as not to be important for a general hobbyist's purposes and I do not mean it to obfuscate the OP's goals in this thread. I am asking out of genuine curiosity and desire for information/education/knowledge. <3 )


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

The density of KNO3 is 2.109g/ml. For every 2.109g added, the total volume of the solution increases by 1ml. 40/2.109 = 18.966, meaning an approximately 519ml solution is created. Within this 519ml of solution there is 40g of KNO3, within that 40g of KNO3 there is 24.531g of NO3.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

thanks. 'case there's any other hobbyist looking at this problem the same way I was, it finally made sense to me when remembering there _is_ a finite volume we have to care about about: the mechanism for dosing. If using, say, a 1mL dropper, that mL is of course some volume KNO3 and some volume H2O. d'oh!


----------



## kshitij (Dec 23, 2009)

@ wet:
You are right , i have now undertood the Ppm part and am doing according to that.  I hope this helps in improving my tank. Also i have increased the amount of co2 , by this way everything will be balanced and not will outrun according to me. Also actuallty i don't know wat CSM+B contains :mod: , but yeah will get that micronutrient  .Right now i can see the following signs in that plants :
1.SOME plants (specailly foreground) are just melting away but new leaves are also coming along licely, maybe because i shifted them.
2. Plant growth is very slow , whereas moss growth is very nice.
3.The crypts wendti "brown" are Very very healthy.
4. So basically the stem plants are having a problem.
Thankyou Wet 

@Diana K:
My substrate is just "Sere substrate" + little peat + laterite + gravel sand.
Also i will add 30-40 black neons tetras tomorrow itself and that shall also help i hope. Also you are right that i will have to understand doing "art of dosing" according to the plants and then balance it according to them. Thanks.


----------

