# Help - Rotala sp stunting



## skewlboy (Jun 9, 2006)

Rotala sp. 'Nanjenshan' and Rotal vietnam are now growing more leggy and the leaves are very short and twisting. Leaves are very green as well. 

I'm assuming its due to some deficiency. CO2 good (drop checker and pearling say so), dose nitrates/phos/iron and trace. Only change has been some excel for a small amount of staghorn algae recently. Water is a bit on the hard side but I've had Wallichi in the tank before and it did awesome... I'm at a loss.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*



skewlboy said:


> Rotala sp. 'Nanjenshan' and Rotal vietnam are now growing more leggy and the leaves are very short and twisting. Leaves are very green as well.
> 
> I'm assuming its due to some deficiency. CO2 good (drop checker and pearling say so), dose nitrates/phos/iron and trace. Only change has been some excel for a small amount of staghorn algae recently. Water is a bit on the hard side but I've had Wallichi in the tank before and it did awesome... I'm at a loss.


What kind of lighting are you using and how old are your light tubes?
"...Red light encourages long, "leggy" growth, while blue light encourages compact, "bushy" growth"
Souarce: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/lighting_planted_tank.php

You may have unbalanced light that is too high in the red spectrum. If not and your light tubes are too old, replacing them, "may" fix the problem.

Regards.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

Has the flow decreased due to plant overgrowth? 
All three of those Rotala sp. are very C02 dependent.
You may need a hack job to increase flow throughout the tank, re-position spray bar/lily pipe, clean filter media and pads with tank water to maximize flow.
Assuming you are using an Eheim, they are notorious for drastically decreasing in flow with time.
Even if the dropchecker says you have good C02 it can still be inadequate due to poor flow.
Excel will only help those plants in this case, not hurt, but the flow must reach a certain level of strength in a high light C02 tank to reach optimal conditions.

Signed
Been there, done that!
got the T-shirt, now I use it for a hand towel. :biggrin:


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

I have some Rotala sp. green stunting like that too, but it is where the plant is crowded by other plants, in the corners of the tank. Why this happens with a plant that otherwise grows robustly and soon gets to be far too big, is a mystery to me.


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## skewlboy (Jun 9, 2006)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

Well i moved them to the open space, near lily pipe flow but not directly in it.

Bulbs are both 6700/10k (2 x 96 watt PC over a 50 gal tank) and are about 2 mo old. All other plants doing well, and pearling.

Where is the best place to put the drop checker? I have a 50 gal High tank. 
Running a fluval 305 (yeah, yeah - fluval) and have to constantly "burp" it as my DIY co2 goes into the intake.

Could it be temp? 
Any other suggestions?


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

*Eureka*



hoppycalif said:


> I have some Rotala sp. green stunting like that too, but it is where the plant is crowded by other plants, in the corners of the tank. Why this happens with a plant that otherwise grows robustly and soon gets to be far too big, is a mystery to me.


Hop, the mystery is flow, as you said, "in the corners of tank"
I don't care how many times you calibrate the drop checker if you do not have good flow you will get false readings which render the drop checker useless.
Try sticking the drop checker in the (up high then down low) back corner behind some of those plants you are having trouble with and see what it reads.

I see a lot of folks running filters to small for the tank, when the tank matures and plants start growing good for a week or two then *bam* plants stunt and algae issues arise or they never really get the tank off the ground in the first place.

Inconsistent flow will create a myriad of problems that will leave you scratching you're head...

NPK TE-does not matter how much, as long as it is enough, balancing light/C02 with consistent flow, it works every time on any tank I have dealt with.

Take a well run high light C02 tank and put a smaller filter on it and see what happens, change nothing else but the filter, within a month the tank will look like crap with poor plant health + algae issues and then you will start having dead livestock.

In a situation like this the cure/solution is to slow things down a bit, do a hack job, decrease light intensity while maintaining a consistently positive amount of C02, or drop the light below 2WPG/ish and no C02 and small amount of nutrients once a week but what fun is that.
Get a bigger better filter or if you do not mind all the clutter in the tank then add another filter then watch the Eco-system begin to prosper again.

The filter has to be able to biologically sustain the growing demands we are placing within the closed Eco-system with all the salt and trace minerals we are dropping into the tank on a daily to weekly basis, when the systems demands are greater than the capacity of the bio-filtration the system will begin to decline and possibly to most likely crash if the understanding of what is going on within the system is not understood.

To push the envelope on a high light planted tank the filter has to be high capacity with good media, sponges and floss alone are not a strong enough media.

Our filters are the engine of the enclosed Eco-system we are trying to maintain.

Food for thought...



skewlboy said:


> Well i moved them to the open space, near lily pipe flow but not directly in it.
> 
> Bulbs are both 6700/10k (2 x 96 watt PC over a 50 gal tank) and are about 2 mo old. All other plants doing well, and pearling.
> 
> ...


You're bulbs are fine, and no it is not temperature.
The drop checker won't help either.

However, you do have DIY C02 on a 50H tank using a Fluval 305 as a reactor/diffuser, this you obviously know.
You are pushing you're system a little to hard for the hardware you are running, slow it down a bit, burn 1x96=10hrs burn 2x96=3hrs no more for a week or so and see how it responds, be patient, it will slow down which is what you want the system to do at this time.
Unless you can throw a larger filter and pressurized C02 w/glass diffusers on the tank immediately that is your option.

Find the balance within that range, you will not be able to push it harder without getting a bigger filter with good media and pressurized gas.

Keep dosing the EI as normal for your size tank, but add Flourish Excel to your dosing regime for the life of a 500ml bottle per bottle instructions and your plants will rebound.

If you pay attention to the plants and the system this will show you how to read the system, including the plants.
:biggrin:

P.S. I do wish you would correct the spelling on the topic header.
Rotala sp.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

It is my belief that plants will stunt for reasons we just don't know. Maybe it's that they are seasonal in nature and aren't meant to look vivid and lush all year round, who knows.

Personally I don't believe the flow issues are your problem. I really don't think it takes much flow to move co2 around a fish tank a few feet wide or ferts for that matter. I personally have two tanks with an effective turnover of once an hour and I can honestly say the plants look the same on either end of the the tank. I also don't think it's been proven (or not to me) that increased flow helps biofiltration. In other words if you take the same filter and run it full-flow versus running it half flow a case can be made that less flow is better since the bioligical filtration process is more efficient by superior media contact. I think flow is more important in a fish heavy tank where you need to do more mechanical filtration. In planted tanks most of the filtration is in the tank anyway. Just my beliefs.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

I'm willing to believe that the water circulation is the problem that can cause stunting of plants in the corners or anywhere else where the circulating water bypasses. I do know that when my smaller filter used to get a bit clogged my algae issues would also get worse. And, when I was using CO2 mist, it was extremely obvious how important circulation is. Circulation problems also easily explain how a tank can do very well for a few weeks, then slowly go into decline - the plant mass just gets so big it chokes off the water flow in the tank. I find the best growth rates occur shortly after a heavy pruning, where I replant most of the plants, but have a bucket of plants left over.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*



skewlboy said:


> Where is the best place to put the drop checker?


If you have good water circulation all over the tank, it doesn't matter where the drop checker is located, it will give about the same reading. If you don't have good circulation you will get a noticeably different reading in various locations. I keep mine located near the top of the tank, and at the side out of direct view, but located where I can easily see it. Then I try to maintain good water flow throughout the tank, which can be very difficult.

At one time Tom Barr was talking about making a "drop checker" out of a pH probe, with a tiny gas permeable membrane pouch of 4 dKH water over the tip. He was hoping to be able to get fast reaction times and be able to map the concentration of CO2 around the tank. I think he got distracted by other more pressing problems and hasn't gone back to this.


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## skewlboy (Jun 9, 2006)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

LOL - been trying to edit the title - didn't see I missed an A until after I submitted post. Just thought I would start my own plant genus. (how do I edit the title?)

Anyway, would love to think it is flow but have always had the same flow and things seemed to do well. May just add a rio or some small pup for circulation closer to bottom if you think that will help. Yes it is overplanted, yes it is overpopulated, yes more flow would be nice. I'll look for a small pump.

Was hoping it would just be a fert problem or hard water problem...


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*



skewlboy said:


> LOL - been trying to edit the title - didn't see I missed an A until after I submitted post. Just thought I would start my own plant genus. (how do I edit the title?)
> 
> Anyway, would love to think it is flow but have always had the same flow and things seemed to do well. May just add a rio or some small pup for circulation closer to bottom if you think that will help. Yes it is overplanted, yes it is overpopulated, yes more flow would be nice. I'll look for a small pump.
> 
> Was hoping it would just be a fert problem or hard water problem...


For what it's worth I have used this Hagen Elite Mini Underwater Filter for added circulation and it has worked better than expected. I am using it in one of my 10 gallons, but am not using C02 injection. The beauty of this filter is that it won't give you "overpowering circulation" but probably enough to meet your extra circulation needs. Also, while you have the option of adding custom media(sponge over floss), it can be run without any media at all, just for circulation.

http://www.petco.com/shop/product.a...=bazaarvoice-_-RLP-_-13796-_-productname_link

Regards


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## skewlboy (Jun 9, 2006)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

BTW these plants that are stunting are new to my tank - Could it be due to harder water?


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## Scottio (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*

I don't think it's a circulation issue. Plants like Wallichi can be very finicky. I would check your hardness and Ca:Mg levels and ratios then put them directly in a mist and wait a week. If they're new they might be lacking a slow uptake nutrient the store failed to provide for them. This lack of nutrient plus good conditions besides that will force the plant to grow faster than that nutrient can provide to sustain proper growth. It seems like there's a limiting factor.

I had my stargrass and L. 'cuba' stunt a bit before I started balancing my Ca:Mg levels. If you know for a fact that your CO2 and other ferts are good then look at things you haven't checked. Just go down the list.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Help - Rotal sp stunting*



skewlboy said:


> LOL - been trying to edit the title - didn't see I missed an A until after I submitted post. Just thought I would start my own plant genus. (how do I edit the title?)


Done!


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