# UV Sterilizers/Fish Diseases



## dwalstad

Here's an e-mail question that I just received. I thought this question deserved its own folder and a public answer.



mpe1329 said:


> Sorry to bother you, but I read with interest your advice re fish TB and UV sterilizers. My experience has been that SW fish are hard to kill and FW fish hard to keep alive, which seemed counter-intuitive to me until I read your posts. May I ask what type/brand of UV sterilizer you use? Any recommendations about the wattage of the bulb would also be appreciated.
> 
> My Response:
> 
> During the MB (mycobacteriosis) outbreak two years ago I used two different brands of UV sterilizers. They were the 'UV Gamma 'and the 'Turbo-twist' with either 8 or 9 watt bulbs for my 45, 50, and 55 gal tanks. One sterilizer for each tank. The UV sterilizers stopped the disease in its tracks and saved my fish.
> 
> While the above filters worked wonders, they were hard for me to hook up to the biofilters I use. You see, these particular UV filters are really just a container that directs water in a spiral path around the UV lamp. You have to pump water through them from a separate apparatus.
> 
> Recently, an experienced hobbyist on this forum highly recommended the Submariner UV sterilizer. This filter combines the UV and biofilter into one apparatus. I just bought one ($80) and am going to set it up for my 50 gal tank. It has a 7 watt UV lamp. I'm going to use this tank as a quarantine tank for new fish.
> 
> Folks, many fish being sold are carrying diseases. UV sterilizers will kill not only bacteria but many parasites (e.g. Ich). UV sterilization is being increasingly used in wastewater treatment. Recently, wastewater treatment scientists showed that UV light is highly effective in killing Giardia cysts, a human parasite. My reasoning: if UV sterilization kills human parasites and their cysts, it will probably kill fish parasites and their cysts. I think SW (saltwater) hobbyists are ahead of us on this.
> 
> One minor caveat for UV sterilizers.... UV sterilizers can interfere with iron uptake by non-rooted plants (UV light oxidizes the iron chelators). Thus, you may need to add some chelated iron if your plants show iron deficiencies. However, I had no problems with iron deficiency when I used the UV sterilizers in my NPT tanks.
> 
> Below is a website that has more information on brands of UV sterilizers:
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?N=2004&Np=1&Ntt=uv%20sterilizers&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&Nty=1&pc=1


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## mistergreen

cool, I was going to buy the submarianer UV sterilizer but wasn't sure at its (UV in general) effectiveness. I'm definitely buying one asap.

oh, ps.. Any studies on its effectiveness with certain algae?


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## mpe1329

Thanks for the information and advice. I'm a little leery of the in-tank UV unit you mentioned because I've had so many powerheads die on me in my reef days and I'm not sure if you can get a replacement for the pump if it does conk out. I'm also not crazy about JBJ products in general, and I believe they make (or more likely import) the submariner unit. I'll just do what I normally do in this situation -- obsessively research options on internet and then ignore it all and act on blind impulse. <g>


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## mikenas102

Diane, great write up. Yet another reason why I would never do without my UV (turbo twist 9W). Check out the UV's at nanotuners.com. They have 2 different submersibles at a great price. They also have great customer service. I've bought from them before.


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## dwalstad

mistergreen said:


> oh, ps.. Any studies on its effectiveness with certain algae?


Any UV sterilizer will kill green water algae. If it doesn't, there's something wrong with the UV lamp (too old), or its quartz glass housing needs to be cleaned.

The UV lamp zapps algae cells as the water passes through the filter. UV sterilizers are a mainstay for pond hobbyists to kill green water algae. It will not kill attached algae (hair and blue-green algae) for the simple reason that these algae don't pass through the filter.

Folks, UV light has a common killing mechanism for all cells. It kills by damaging RNA and DNA, two essential components of all living cells. Thus, UV light will kill many of the microorganisms, viruses, small parasites, and green-water algae that pass through the filter.

Newly purchased fish are often:


carrying disease organisms they've picked up along the way from fishfarm, fish wholesalers, aquarium store, etc
have not yet developed immunity to the microorganisms (natural flora) in your tank
severely stressed by transport

A UV sterilizer severely reduces the number of potential pathogens, so that the new fish has a chance to develop its immunity and fight off disease.


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## Homer_Simpson

Also, there have been situations of transmission of dangerous pathogens from aquarium water due to infected fish to a fishowner. The transmission occured because the fish owner was cleaning the aquarium, did not know about the pathogen, had an open cut or sore which served as an opening for the transmission. I wish I would have saved the link. There was an actual incidence of this happening in Quebec and as a matter of public health the government had to track down the infection. I believe it was a form of fish Tuberculosis where a trail of fish owners who had purchased infected fish from a pet store got it. It was traced back to infected stock that the pet store got from its import of fish from Asia. For me the very possiblity, no matter how remote of something like this happening makes a UV sterilizer a worthwhile investment. Better safe than sorry.

*****Edit: this is the link to the article that I was talking about:

*OUTBREAK OF SALMONELLA PARATYPHI B LINKED TO AQUARIUMS IN THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC, 2000*
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/02vol28/dr2811ea.html

It was SALMONELLA PARATYPHI B not fish TB sorry.

Regards


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## dwalstad

Amen, Brother!

The transmission of mycobacteriosis from aquarium fish to humans is relatively rare but can happen. The result is painful, slow-healing (2-12 months) sores on hands and arms.

One hobbyist in my aquarium society recently had a sliver on her finger that got infected after cleaning her tanks. The hobbyist's doctor was going to surgically remove the painful sore that just wouldn't go away. Just by chance, another hobbyist suggested it might be "Fish Tank Syndrome" and to check with a fish veterinarian. Sure enough, it was from the fish tanks! The doctor then put the hobbyist on the right antibiotics to heal the sore. Ironically, none of her fish appeared to be diseased. 

Folks, a UV sterilizer will certainly help. In the meantime, wash your hands and arms soon (within 30 min) after cleaning tanks. If you have an open wound or are immuno-compromised, take extra precautions.


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## Endler Guy

Thanks for this thread!

How long should you use it in a TB infected tank? Indefinitely or when the fish have stopped succumbing? I made a post in your diseased fish thread. I don't know if you've read it but my endlers have it. They've stopped dying for now but a female is getting pretty big so, I check to make sure her tail isn't withering away. I know it'll never go away but am just wondering whether I should always use the UV and add some iron or not? The original inhabitants stopped dying and so, I thought they were healthy. They obviously weren't and had spread the disease while appearing in perfect health. 

Thanks,


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## dwalstad

Endler Guy said:


> Thanks for this thread!
> 
> How long should you use it in a TB infected tank? Indefinitely or when the fish have stopped succumbing? I made a post in your diseased fish thread. I don't know if you've read it but my endlers have it. They've stopped dying for now but a female is getting pretty big so, I check to make sure her tail isn't withering away. I know it'll never go away but am just wondering whether I should always use the UV and add some iron or not? The original inhabitants stopped dying and so, I thought they were healthy. They obviously weren't and had spread the disease while appearing in perfect health.
> 
> Thanks,


Just saw your post today.

I kept the UV sterilizer on 24 hr a day for about 4 months. A couple fish that were too far gone died, but a couple got better. Then... no more started showing symptoms. After awhile, the fish looked so good that I removed the UV sterilizers entirely from the 3 tanks.

The vet that diagnosed my fish also found that they had an _Aeromonas_ infection as well as the TB (mycobacteriosis). _Aeromonas_ is another bacteria that probably attacks fish weakened by TB (the two bacteria are frequently found together in diseased fish).

My experience suggests that all is not lost even if you do have diseased fish in your tank. A UV sterilizer will block transmission from one fish to the other. It will also reduce the fish's exposure to secondary pathogens (like the _Aeromonas_). Healthy fish can fight off small numbers of potential pathogens (Ich, TB, Aeromonas, etc) that are a natural part of their environment. A UV sterilizer could reduce the total potential pathogen population down to numbers a healthy fish (or maybe even a stressed fish) could handle.


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## mistergreen

So, do you leave the UV on till the bulb dies?

Or do you leave it on for a week or until the visible symptoms go away?
I'm having issues with some unknown protozoan, maybe Oödinium of some sort.


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## houseofcards

Personally I leave my UV on all the time. Too much upside and very little downside. If you have a cansister it's an invisible component your system. I look at the the UV as my best buddy who helps even the odds in a closed system where "perfect balance" is pretty much impossible. 

I agree with what Diane with fish especially during the acclimation process when they are most stressed and their systems are compromised. One case in point. I have a school of cardinals in my tank for a long time (hence the name "House of Cards") Anyone when I first started establishing them I would buy 20 and maybe 10 would survive. I did this time and time again and the same result. I once got greenwater and purchased the UV for the primary purpose of getting rid of the GW and it did in a few days. The secondary benefit was that the tried adding more cards and to my amazement almost all survived. I purchased more from another source and I got the same result. I was achieving more like a 90% survival rate versus 50%. Two years later I still have many of the same fish. I can't remember the last time I had a sick fish. When someone asks me if I have a quarantine tank, I say, what's that!


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## Endler Guy

Thanks!


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## mistergreen

my Submariner arrived today. I plugged it in and the UV bulb died a few seconds later.... I'm returning it


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## Endler Guy

mistergreen said:


> my Submariner arrived today. I plugged it in and the UV bulb died a few seconds later.... I'm returning it


The whole thing? Surely, they'd send you a new bulb.


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## Raul-7

I have a question, isn't creating a sterile environment potentially harmful to the fish's immunity? If you look at what happened to Bryce's 180G outbreak, he had a UV sterilizer running 24/7 and eventually once a diseased fish was introduced into the tank the rest of the species died off rather rapidly. It begs the question, is having it on all the time necessary or is a couple of hours a day the better option?


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## mistergreen

Endler Guy said:


> The whole thing? Surely, they'd send you a new bulb.


yeah, the bulb is incased in a glass/quartz tube. It needs a special device (i don't have) to open it or a wrench would work.. I'm afraid if I accidentally break the glass tube, the warranty from dr. foster&smith would be nullified. Just to be safe, i'm sending the whole thing.


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## BryceM

Raul-7 said:


> I have a question, isn't creating a sterile environment potentially harmful to the fish's immunity? If you look at what happened to Bryce's 180G outbreak, he had a UV sterilizer running 24/7 and eventually once a diseased fish was introduced into the tank the rest of the species died off rather rapidly. It begs the question, is having it on all the time necessary or is a couple of hours a day the better option?


This is something that still confuses me a bit. Mostly I think the epidemic happened becasue I started a "In my Planted Tanks Fish Never Get Sick" thread. Within about 3 minutes the whole thing was going belly-up. The huge outbreak started when I introduced some recently imported wild-caught rummynose. From what I observed, the attack seems to have started with a parasite. The fish first developed some nasty lesions. These looked like large, rock-salt sized granules on the flanks of the fish, especially the congo tetras. The more severely affected fish then went on to develop columnaris-type lesions. Most then progressed to death within a week or so. The rummies dropped much sooner - usually within a day or two of showing symptoms. They're a funny fish, seemingly schooling and eating up until a few minutes before they drop dead - not much warning - and the red nose never faded at all.

My corries never showed any problems at all. I lost 3 of 7 rams, 80% of the rummies, 50% of the congos, and recently one large SAE went missing that had demonstrated lesions for a couple of days. The remaining rummies (11) are apparently fine. A few congos have been showing rock-salt granules from time to time, but they come and go over time, the fish completely recovering after a few weeks. It bothers me that there are still signs of evil within the tank. A school of harlequins added a month ago are perfectly fine. I'd like to build up the rummy school again, but they're pretty hard to find around here and I'm reluctant to ever order again from my previous importer.

I keep my QT tank with regular tapwater which is fine for most fish, but rummies don't seem to handle the hard water and subsequent transition to the RO-supplied 180g tank as well. It's also a little small for 3 or 4 dozen new rummies all at once, which is why I took a chance with the large group before.

The UV has been running 24/7 this whole time, but the unit is quite undersized for effective treatment of water-borne parasites. It's only a 15W unit, sized to prevent green water outbreaks. For this task it seems to be doing fine. I'm actually thinking up upgrading to something much larger and moving this unit to a future 75g show tank for my waiting room.

What the display tank really needs is removal of all the fish for a time, treatment of the fish in separate hospital tanks, and eventual return of the symptom-free fish. I don't have the space, time, or patience for any of this so on and on we go.


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## mistergreen

I guess UV sterilizers are only effective for water born pathogens..


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## dwalstad

Here's an excellent question from Aquabillers regarding the UV thread:

"I thought the idea of the NPT approach was to simplify things. From the thread on UV filtering, it seems to make things more complicated.

Knock on wood, my fish don't get sick..."

I guess an NPT is anything you want it to be. I'm personally "fed up" dealing with diseases from fish I've purchased. I admit that I have been extremely negligent in not using a quarantine tank for new fish. But those carefree days are over!

My reason for promoting quarantine tanks and UV sterilizers: Too many hobbyists (with or without NPTs) get discouraged and quit the hobby when their fish become diseased and die. [And, I really would like to continue selling more books!]

The risk of disease when introducing new fish is enormous, and the consequences are so devastating. The UV sterilizer is one gadget I recommend for those that "want to keep it simple".

Otherwise, you've got hobbyists with sick fish desperately dumping antibiotics, permanganate, copper and all kinds of chemicals into their tank. In my experience, treating sick fish is often difficult, expensive, and/or doesn't work. A UV sterilizer can help prevent much of this turmoil and unpleasantness.

For those that have healthy fish and haven't had problems, I salute you! You obviously have a good source of healthy fish and take good care of your fish. But you've also had a little luck. I've purchased many fish from hobbyists and stores that didn't cause any problems. But its that one asymptomatic disease-carrier that can spoil it all.

I just put my brand-new UV Submariner into the 50 gal. It's really nice and very quiet. Yes, it costs a little more, and I'll have to buy a new bulb in a year. But oh, the Peace of Mind! I've put all the fish that "look a little funny" into this tank [my fish that survived the mycobacteriosis outbreak in 2004 are probably still carrying the disease and could be infectious.]

Mister Green, I'm so sorry that your UV bulb was broken. I'm sure the vendor will take care of you. If they don't, you let us know!


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## Homer_Simpson

dwalstad said:


> Here's an excellent question from Aquabillers regarding the UV thread:
> 
> "I thought the idea of the NPT approach was to simplify things. From the thread on UV filtering, it seems to make things more complicated.
> 
> Knock on wood, my fish don't get sick..."
> 
> I guess an NPT is anything you want it to be. I'm personally "fed up" dealing with diseases from fish I've purchased. I admit that I have been extremely negligent in not using a quarantine tank for new fish. But those carefree days are over!
> 
> My reason for promoting quarantine tanks and UV sterilizers: Too many hobbyists (with or without NPTs) get discouraged and quit the hobby when their fish become diseased and die. [And, I really would like to continue selling more books!]
> 
> The risk of disease when introducing new fish is enormous, and the consequences are so devastating. The UV sterilizer is one gadget I recommend for those that "want to keep it simple".
> 
> Otherwise, you've got hobbyists with sick fish desperately dumping antibiotics, permanganate, copper and all kinds of chemicals into their tank. In my experience, treating sick fish is often difficult, expensive, and/or doesn't work. A UV sterilizer can help prevent much of this turmoil and unpleasantness.
> 
> For those that have healthy fish and haven't had problems, I salute you! You obviously have a good source of healthy fish and take good care of your fish. But you've also had a little luck. I've purchased many fish from hobbyists and stores that didn't cause any problems. But its that one asymptomatic disease-carrier that can spoil it all.
> 
> I just put my brand-new UV Submariner into the 50 gal. It's really nice and very quiet. Yes, it costs a little more, and I'll have to buy a new bulb in a year. But oh, the Peace of Mind! I've put all the fish that "look a little funny" into this tank [my fish that survived the mycobacteriosis outbreak in 2004 are probably still carrying the disease and could be infectious.]
> 
> Mister Green, I'm so sorry that your UV bulb was broken. I'm sure the vendor will take care of you. If they don't, you let us know!


Well said. For me life is all about risk vs benefits. When the benefits of doing something minimize or eliminate risk an in this case to the fish, not to mention to yourself, why wouldn't you do it? Unless you enjoy taking risks, in which case be prepared for possible consequences.


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## BryceM

dwalstad said:


> In my experience, treating sick fish is often difficult, expensive, and/or doesn't work.
> 
> For those that have healthy fish and haven't had problems, I salute you! You obviously have a good source of healthy fish and take good care of your fish. But you've also had a little luck.


Well said. I suppose in certain circumstances there might be a few medications that work. I've tried most of them, and I'm 100% convinced that I've done more harm than good trying to treat fish diseases.

Don't suppose though that a UV sterilizer is a sure-fire device that will forever rid you of the worry of diseased fish. Waterborne critters are the only ones that a typical UV unit can zap. Waterborne transmission isn't the only pathway for one fish to infect another.


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## Raul-7

guaiac_boy said:


> Don't suppose though that a UV sterilizer is a sure-fire device that will forever rid you of the worry of diseased fish. Waterborne critters are the only ones that a typical UV unit can zap. Waterborne transmission isn't the only pathway for one fish to infect another.


This is true. Not all the parasites will end up getting zapped by the UV, the lucky ones will have already attached to a host before then.


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## Homer_Simpson

While that may be true, if you choose not to use a UV sterilizer, you risk of getting water borne pathogens from newly infected fish will increase substantially, which, with nothing to kill them, the pathogens will spread to and eventually infect your healthy fish. Your only option at that time becomes to use high levels of salt(which can wreak havoc with your plants) and turn up the heat in the hopes of killing the pathogens. If that does not work, you are left with the task of tearing down your tank, thoroughly disinfecting everything, discarding plants to be safe, and rebuilding, placing the fish in a quarantine tank for observation to make sure that they are clean so that you don't reintroduce the pathogens into the water of your rebuilt tank. 

People also seem to look at the use of a UV sterlizer as one way street(i.e., what can it do to protect my fish?). What people fail to realize is that a UV sterilizer can help mitigate the risk of you contracting a deadly infection like S.Java and SALMONELLA PARATYPHI B, during routine tank cleaning where you may be exposed. 

Like Diana I would rather not go through the hassle of setting up a quarantine tank and medicating sick/new fish or tearing down, disinfecting, and rebuilding a infected tank. A UV sterilizer may not be a be all end all, but using it as means to prevent the spread of pathogens could save you a ton of work in the long run. And for me, the most important factor is reduced risk that I will contract something while cleaning the tank.

As far as the UV sterilizer not killing the pathogens already present in diseased fish, I don't care. I deal with a reputable supplier that offers a 30 day money back guarantee, and usually most parasites will mature and kill the fish before the 30 days, at least that has been my experience.


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## newbie314

So for us how don't really use filters/pumps (using one on my 20g-long to remove get rid of algae - take out DOC), is the sponge prefilter suppose to stop very small animals from entering like baby shrimp, fry, laval (fresh water planktonic creatures).

I just want to be informed in case I want to add this. Looks like the submariner would be good for UV sterilization and some water flow.


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## Raul-7

newbie314 said:


> So for us how don't really use filters/pumps (using one on my 20g-long to remove get rid of algae - take out DOC), is the sponge prefilter suppose to stop very small animals from entering like baby shrimp, fry, laval (fresh water planktonic creatures).
> 
> I just want to be informed in case I want to add this. Looks like the submariner would be good for UV sterilization and some water flow.


It depends on how coarse or fine the sponge is, most pre-filters are designed to prevent larger debris like plants leaves and possibly fish waste from entering the UV chamber. I don't think it would stop tiny shrimp, fry, rotifers or other small organisms from coming into contact with the UV light.


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## houseofcards

guaiac_boy said:


> Don't suppose though that a UV sterilizer is a sure-fire device that will forever rid you of the worry of diseased fish. Waterborne critters are the only ones that a typical UV unit can zap. Waterborne transmission isn't the only pathway for one fish to infect another.


This of course is true, but I'd bet on a UV controllng disease in a tank better than a quarantine tank. Even if you quarantine your fish for a long time there is no guarantee of their condition once put into the main tank. At least with the UV I know the transmission of disease will be limited to contact. I would take those odds any day. But as Diane pointed out, it's just much easier for new fish to deal with the limited pathogens in the tank when they stressed out.

Plus the UV let's you enjoy rearranging your tank and not worrying about a GW outbreak from released Ammonia.


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## dwalstad

Raul-7 said:


> It depends on how coarse or fine the sponge is, most pre-filters are designed to prevent larger debris like plants leaves and possibly fish waste from entering the UV chamber. I don't think it would stop tiny shrimp, fry, rotifers or other small organisms from coming into contact with the UV light.


Dear Raul,

The sponge pre-filter on my Submariner is extremely coarse. I don't think it would stop anything but the biggest pieces of debris. The short exposure to UV may not kill small organisms like Rotifers and fish fry.

I will keep you all informed as to the filter's efficacy, etc. This is a "work-in-progress".

BTW, I will be giving a talk on mycobacteriosis at the Raleigh Aquarium Society's workshop in Feb 2008. I'll have more info then.


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## dwalstad

Hello Everyone,

Just reporting that I am very pleased with the Submariner UV sterilizer. It is quiet, and the UV light is still working (there's an indicator for light UV activity).

While I cannot predict what will happen in 2010 (or beyond), I can say that the Submariner seems to be working okay so far. I am sure that there are other UV sterilizer brands that will work fine. After all, it's only a matter of UV light hitting water-borne organisms in a way that maximizes UV exposure.

I believe that plants will remove toxins (ammonia, nitrite, H2S) and that UV sterilizers will counteract fish diseases (pathogenic bacteria, parasites, and viruses).

One needs both for a successful NPT.


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## PlantMauller

dwalstad said:


> BTW, I will be giving a talk on mycobacteriosis at the Raleigh Aquarium Society's workshop in Feb 2008. I'll have more info then.


Do you have the exact dates on that talk yet? I would like to hear that talk.


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## dwalstad

No, but the club usually shoots for the last weekend in February.
That would be great if you could make it.


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## p3purr

Diana,
I really enjoyed hear you talk at the RAS workshop this past weekend. When I walked in I knew virtually nothing about MB. You gave lots of great information that was clearly presented and very easy to understand. Thank you.


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## PlantMauller

You can read Diana's article on fish TB here:
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm

The link to the article is on the left hand side of the page.


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## travdawg

Hey all, sorry to dredge this old thread up.... I am about to set up a 45 gallon bowfront. I was going to use one of these JBJ subs for water movement & UVS. The lower priced one is rated for 40 gallons. With the layer of soil & rock, & the displacement of water from the wood &/or rock I expect that I will be closer to 40 gal, than 45. Anyone think I would suffer by getting the smaller unit?


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## dwalstad

No.


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## Karen in San Jose

So, I got my 15 wild cardinal tetras and 6 corydoras yesterday. The good news is the corys are all looking great. One is acting a tad shy, but coming around. The tetras obviously came with mycobacteriosis.

I have 8 tetras left so far. One had a hunchback and looked really scaly. I'd read Diana Walstad's article, so I was aware this could happen (thank you!!!) and had my UV sterilizer running for a few weeks when I first set up the tank for the blackworms and snails and shrimp. Then, I started it up again for the last couple of weeks getting ready for the fish to come, and I had it on the same timer as the siesta light period. Today, I set it to run 24/7 because of the sick fish.

I'd say 6 of the 8 are eating really well and even bickering with each other, which is great normal behavior. A couple are looking a tad pekid, but look like they may come around. I had to euthanize a few that were obviously sick and should be removed.

4 arrived DOA. I didn't have a quarantine tank and wanted to hurry up my normal acclimation process because I wanted to get them out of the dead fish water, so didn't get a good look at the obviously sick ones before they went into the tank.

I'm feeding them baby brine shrimp and am hoping that they'll get stonger and the UV light will help them survive and thrive.

The ones that died in the tank, kindly died where I could see their bodies, but not before a snail and/or shrimp got a few bites. I'm concerned that the snails and shrimp will be the next to get sick.

I had a question for Ms. Walstad: Did you have snails or shrimp in the tanks when your rainbow fish got sick and did they eat any infected bodies, and did they get sick?

Also, the UV filter I have is only a 3 watt for an 17 gallon tank (ADA 60P tank). It's rated for 20 gallons. I can feel suction and water movement, and the light is working. Hope it's good enough. This is the one I have:

https://www.amazon.com/AA-Aquarium-...0051C62IQ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

I'm also obsessive about washing my hands after putting them in the tank, so fortunately, I already have that good habit. But, now I'm really reluctant to put my hands in there!


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## dwalstad

A UV sterilizer is a good to use whenever you add new fish. I keep one on hand for just this purpose. The one you bought sounds fine.

I don't think that you have to worry about snails and shrimp getting mycobacteriosis from whatever species of EM (environmental mycobacteria) that fish might be carrying. My snails did not get sick.

Humans getting Fish TB is fairly rare. Just don't clean tanks when you have an open wound, sores, pin pricks, etc. Unbroken skin is an excellent barrier to EM.

Parasites are probably a bigger problem with incoming wild fish than Fish TB. Read my article on fish diseases. Professional importers of valuable wild-caught fish often use a series of dewormers, including levamisole.

The UV will help, no matter what. It will help with bacterial infections secondary to the parasites. And if the parasites are small enough, it will kill them too.


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## Karen in San Jose

dwalstad said:


> A UV sterilizer is a good to use whenever you add new fish. I keep one on hand for just this purpose. The one you bought sounds fine.
> 
> I don't think that you have to worry about snails and shrimp getting mycobacteriosis from whatever species of EM (environmental mycobacteria) that fish might be carrying. My snails did not get sick.
> 
> Humans getting Fish TB is fairly rare. Just don't clean tanks when you have an open wound, sores, pin pricks, etc. Unbroken skin is an excellent barrier to EM.
> 
> Parasites are probably a bigger problem with incoming wild fish than Fish TB. Read my article on fish diseases. Professional importers of valuable wild-caught fish often use a series of dewormers, including levamisole.
> 
> The UV will help, no matter what. It will help with bacterial infections secondary to the parasites. And if the parasites are small enough, it will kill them too.


Thanks so much for the info and reassurances. Wow, very eye-opening article! Poor fish! The guy I bought the fish from is in Florida and did say he'd treated the fish and they were eating fine. But, they were obviously sick, at least a good number of them, so I'm really disappointed in this seller. I sure wish I could find a cardinal tetra hobbyist to sell some to me. I've heard the San Francisco aquarium society is amazing, but they aren't having meetings/auctions right now because of Covid.

I'm down to one cardinal tetra. It looks good and acts normally, and even ate some dry fish food along with the baby brine shrimp. Hopefully, it will make it. It's actually quite bold checking out the tank, even though it's alone, so crossing fingers.

But, one of the corys started scratching itself against the gravel, which is a sign of ich, so I'm raising the temperature of the tank slowly to 86 degrees. They otherwise are very active. But, there was one who was acting a bit shy and most of the time was off by itself, although active - just not hanging out with the others, and I noticed it's top fin was clamped down a bit. I'd hoped it would come around - it had gotten trapped in a corner of the tank and I rescued it, but it was stressed out more than the others, too. Hopefully, the heat treatment along with the UV filter will bring him around.


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## dwalstad

These fish could be carrying parasites other than ich or just totally stressed out. That's sad that you're just down to one or two.

My aquarium club RAS does all their bulk fish orders only from the Wet Spot. *Believe me*, the RAS senior members are extraordinary picky, so I would vouch for the Wet Spot without ever having gotten a fish from them. I've never heard any complaints from RAS members-10-40 per year that get fish from these bulk orders. Cardinal Tetras, both wild and TR (?) are for sale for $3-4 each at Wet Spot.


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## Karen in San Jose

dwalstad said:


> These fish could be carrying parasites other than ich or just totally stressed out. That's sad that you're just down to one or two.
> 
> My aquarium club RAS does all their bulk fish orders only from the Wet Spot. *Believe me*, the RAS senior members are extraordinary picky, so I would vouch for the Wet Spot without ever having gotten a fish from them. I've never heard any complaints from RAS members-10-40 per year that get fish from these bulk orders. Cardinal Tetras, both wild and TR (?) are for sale for $3-4 each at Wet Spot.


I can't thank you enough for this reference! I'm happy to pay a premium for healthy fish. Wahoo! I'm psyched they're on the west coast, too, so shipping shouldn't be as traumatic for the fish. Getting from Portland to San Jose shouldn't involve a lot of transfers.

I've got the temp up to 82.6 degrees so far and everyone is looking fantastic now. I haven't seen the one little itchy cory scratching at all since this morning and he's swimming with the pack now. The lone cardinal tetra also looks amazing and has eaten a gajillion live baby brine shrimp as well as some flake food and has really colored up and is boldly hanging out in the light now.

I'll give them 10 days of the heat treatment and if all is still looking good, I'll order more cardinal tetras from Wet Spot. Wahoo! I'm so excited about this reliable source. Thanks so much!

What I love about wild fish vs TR is how bold they are about searching out food in the tank, as opposed to just expecting manna to fall from heaven lol. That way, I can take off for a few days once in a while and let them hunt the blackworms in the tank, etc. Also, I like that they aren't inbred, and that they were strong enough to survive getting to my tank - I think they're normally healthier and more resilient. It's been many years since I've had fish, though, and things seem to have gotten worse as far as diseases and parasites, so this may no longer be true.


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## Karen in San Jose

Wow, I just read the fish guarantee for the Wet Spot, and it's amazing. Instead of the usual demand for photos of dead fish in the bag (as if I would stop to take photos instead of rescuing the live fish in that bag), they ask for a water sample and to send it to them along with the dead fish, so they can test them. Unheard of and brilliant. That says so much about their operation right there. I'm so excited to buy cardinal tetras from them.

Once I get my cardinal tetra school, I don't foresee putting anything new in my tank ever going forward. These fish are long-lived, normally, and I'm good on plants, as long as there aren't any meltdowns. In fact, I've already given away a ton of ramshorn snails and some plant trimmings on Craigslist - and I only set up this tank on June 4th! This method works! Okay, enough gushing


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## jatcar95

Just found out about the Wet Spot, as I recently moved to Portland. I checked it out, and it's really incredible, everyone I talked to seemed very knowledgeable (they also are doing great at social distancing). Also going to purchase my next fish from them.


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## dwalstad

I envy you living in city with such a superb aquarium fish store.


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## YodelMogul

dwalstad said:


> A UV sterilizer is a good to use whenever you add new fish. I keep one on hand for just this purpose. The one you bought sounds fine.
> 
> I don't think that you have to worry about snails and shrimp getting mycobacteriosis from whatever species of EM (environmental mycobacteria) that fish might be carrying. My snails did not get sick.
> 
> Humans getting Fish TB is fairly rare. Just don't clean tanks when you have an open wound, sores, pin pricks, etc. Unbroken skin is an excellent barrier to EM.
> 
> Parasites are probably a bigger problem with incoming wild fish than Fish TB. Read my article on fish diseases. Professional importers of valuable wild-caught fish often use a series of dewormers, including levamisole.
> 
> The UV will help, no matter what. It will help with bacterial infections secondary to the parasites. And if the parasites are small enough, it will kill them too.


can MB survive being dried out? Im wondering if i brought mb into my tank thru two separate purchases of fish recently. the first purchase i returned as the fish were clearly very sick and displaying dropsy. I then had no fish in the tank for some months, broke it down and moved it and recently restocked with dwarf puffers. 4 of the first 8 i ordered died within 24 hours. I euthanized the rest as they were wasting with crooked spines. Now i just 4-5 from my lfs that arrived with ich and are currently being treated. Im wondering how they will fare in this tank as it may be infected. Very nervous about spreading this to my established tanks, but i have mostly dedicated tools for each.


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## mistergreen

MB is pretty common and they can survive 'dried out'. They can come in with newly purchased fish too. Clean out the mulm in a tank seems to keep down their numbers.


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## YodelMogul

mistergreen said:


> MB is pretty common and they can survive 'dried out'. They can come in with newly purchased fish too. Clean out the mulm in a tank seems to keep down their numbers.


Scary stuff! I know I’ve put my hands in with broken skin/gotten the water in my mouth too. 😱


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## mistergreen

YodelMogul said:


> Scary stuff! I know I’ve put my hands in with broken skin/gotten the water in my mouth too. 😱


Consuming them wouldn't be bad. They die in heat and stomach acid. They'll only attack colder extremity parts of your body.

Actually, a good way to sterilize your tank or net is with hot (200f) water for a few minutes.


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## YodelMogul

mistergreen said:


> Consuming them wouldn't be bad. They die in heat and stomach acid. They'll only attack colder extremity parts of your body.
> 
> Actually, a good way to sterilize your tank or net is with hot (200f) water for a few minutes.


I have a million more questions and I’m not sure what the right ones are or if there are answers. Does sunlight kill them or are the uv sterilizers more powerful? Is it something to really worry about? How prevalent do you think this bacteria is? What about erythromycin? I’m currently just monitoring my tank but I also bought some minnows from the grocery store earlier this year. Many unexplained deaths but now I have 5 left that seem healthy. Even added some swords to test and they seem healthy as well. If this stuff is everywhere then it seems like I may as well just not worry and try to keep my fish stress free. Haha sorry for so many you don’t have to answer!


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## mistergreen

MB live in soil So they‘re everywhere. Yes, UV is a good tool to control them. Germicidal UV with wave lengths around 250nm. The sun does provide that but not to the extent of a UV bulb.


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## YodelMogul

mistergreen said:


> MB live in soil So they‘re everywhere. Yes, UV is a good tool to control them. Germicidal UV with wave lengths around 250nm. The sun does provide that but not to the extent of a UV bulb.


But these are not the ones that cause disease, correct? Do you know anywhere that has good info on “fish handler disease”? I’d like to learn more, however I’m guessing it is not very infectious based on how little info there is about it and there only being ~100 cases in humans per year. Seems like few people know about fish tb and I’m sure people are tending their aquariums with small cuts on their hands/arms all the time.


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## mistergreen

Washing your hands with soap does wonders to get rid of any bacteria even with a cut.


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## YodelMogul

mistergreen said:


> MB live in soil So they‘re everywhere. Yes, UV is a good tool to control them. Germicidal UV with wave lengths around 250nm. The sun does provide that but not to the extent of a UV bulb.


 So does using a uv sterilizer have any effect on competition between bacteria? Or is it simply sterilizing the water such that the bacteria can then only compete on say gravel/plants etc? 
I’m also curious what do you think about vorticella? Could healthy “colonies” of vorticella have any meaningful impact on mb?


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## FishLOVER317

I have a 15 gallon tank which is affected by Fish tb. I have lost 9 danios so far. I came across UV sterilizer treatment while reading an article on mycobateriosis by madam Diana Walstad. I have just installed a DIY UV sterilizer which is used for domestic RO purification of water . I have a 11 w UV lamp . At first I kept the flow rate at 30 gph and still it didnt seem to work.Now I have reduced the flow even further. what would be the correct flow rate of water ? 

NOTE : I am willing to run the motor 24/7, with a 1 hr break every 4 hours, since my motor gets heated up . THANKS IN ADVANCE...


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## mistergreen

The slower the flow rate the better. You'll have to remove the sick fish and treat them with antibiotics. UV alone won't cure sick fish.



FishLOVER317 said:


> View attachment 74410
> 
> View attachment 74409
> 
> 
> I have a 15 gallon tank which is affected by Fish tb. I have lost 9 danios so far. I came across UV sterilizer treatment while reading an article on mycobateriosis by madam Diana Walstad. I have just installed a DIY UV sterilizer which is used for domestic RO purification of water . I have a 11 w UV lamp . At first I kept the flow rate at 30 gph and still it didnt seem to work.Now I have reduced the flow even further. what would be the correct flow rate of water ?
> 
> NOTE : I am willing to run the motor 24/7, with a 1 hr break every 4 hours, since my motor gets heated up . THANKS IN ADVANCE...


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## FishLOVER317

mistergreen said:


> The slower the flow rate the better. You'll have to remove the sick fish and treat them with antibiotics. UV alone won't cure sick fish.


is there any effective antibiotic that is easily available?


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## mistergreen

FishLOVER317 said:


> is there any effective antibiotic that is easily available?


I don't know what's available in your country. You'd want something like triple sulfa, kanamycin.


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## FishLOVER317

mistergreen said:


> I don't know what's available in your country. You'd want something like triple sulfa, kanamycin.


I can only get this medicine for human use.Is it safe for fish?


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## mistergreen

You'll have to work out the dosing.
*triple sulfa, 1 packet is 3oz - 60% is salt*
For each 10 gallons of water, empty one packet directly into aquarium. Repeat dose after 24 hours. Wait another 24 hours then change 25% of the aquarium water. Repeat this treatment for a second time, for a total of 4 doses. Then make a final 25% water change and add fresh activated carbon or replace filter cartridge.

*Kana*
Use a 1/4 teaspoon Kanamycin per 20 gallons of water.
· Treat every 24 hours with a 25% water change before each treatment. Use 1/2 dose on tetras, neons, ghosts, whales, and sensitive fish. Treat for 5 to 7 days. This medication may interfere with biological filtration. Antibiotics and treatments are always safest when used in a hospital tank. Monitor ammonia and nitrite. Change water as needed. Not for fish used for human consumption.


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## FishLOVER317

mistergreen said:


> You'll have to work out the dosing.
> *triple sulfa, 1 packet is 3oz*
> For each 10 gallons of water, empty one packet directly into aquarium. Repeat dose after 24 hours. Wait another 24 hours then change 25% of the aquarium water. Repeat this treatment for a second time, for a total of 4 doses. Then make a final 25% water change and add fresh activated carbon or replace filter cartridge.
> 
> *Kana*
> Use a 1/4 teaspoon Kanamycin per 20 gallons of water.
> · Treat every 24 hours with a 25% water change before each treatment. Use 1/2 dose on tetras, neons, ghosts, whales, and sensitive fish. Treat for 5 to 7 days. This medication may interfere with biological filtration. Antibiotics and treatments are always safest when used in a hospital tank. Monitor ammonia and nitrite and use AquaLife Complete Water Conditioner. Change water as needed. Not for fish used for human consumption.


Thanks man!!!


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## mistergreen

FishLOVER317 said:


> Thanks man!!!


Actually, you should dose 1.2oz (34g) for the triple sulfa. 60% of it is salt in the API packet. I'm assuming they don't add salt in it for humans.


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## dwalstad

Please *reread* my article 'Mycobacteriosis in Aquarium Fish'. I used UV sterilizing filters successfully to manage an outbreak and prevent transmission to healthy fish. They did not cure sick fish. There is no realistic, practical cure for mycobacteriosis (MB) or "Fish TB." Routine antibiotics will not help except possibly for secondary infections that accompany the primary MB infection. 
Good fish management (removal "of sick fish and UV sterilizers) will control and prevent outbreaks but will not cure diseased fish. 
Article is available for free download from my website.


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