# Shrimp + MTS + my tank = DEATH



## jpmtotoro

Alright, I'm going off of memory here...

I have a 65-gallon heavily planted tank. After it cycled, I was happily keeping shrimp for a few months (bamboo, ghost, and cherry reds) and Olive Nerite snails. In addition, after a while, I was starting to add some MTS snails in hopes they would get a good little colony going. (the only other fish I have are otos and SAEs).

Around the same time (coincidence, I'm certain), some of my shrimp started doing the death roll and the Nerites started dying one by one. The MTS never bred and also slowly died off.

I know I won't be able to get answers out of here without a detailed list of my stuff, so I'll do my best here...
4x55 watt CF. injected CO2 controlled by a milwaukee PH monitor/solenoid. I dose all seachem ferts (flourish comprehensive, trace, K, Fe, N, and P) and have flourite substrate. Dosing is done every morning, before the lights go on. Photo period is about 8 hours.

Armageddon happened about 2 or 3 months ago. During the time, I was fiddling with lots of stuff... overdosing certain ferts, underdosing others (trying to fight algae, trying to get good plant growth). Trace was one of the things I KNOW I overdosed (I had a micronutrient shortage, but trace wasn't cutting it... I had to add Flourish which solved my problem). So then I cut back Trace considerably.

Over the next few weeks, I finally got the ferts down pretty good. no ammonia or nitrites, nitrates were also usually 0 (plants sucked everything up, I have a lot of fast-growers). PH was 6.8, Kh was around 4.5 or 5.

After getting everything squared away, I picked up a few CRS and MTS. They all died almost instantly (most within 8 hours). I rechecked all the parameters I could think of and everything looked great. Finally, I decided that maybe I went overboard with the Trace and there was too much copper in the tank (great, right? terrible thing to have). To check, I ordered a copper test kit from seachem and also some cuprisorb. Ok, the test kits aren't that great... but if there's a ton of copper in the tank, SOMETHING would show up, right? I tested and it came back as 0! Mystery still not solved... Threw in a few CRS shimp, death roll, yadda yadda, very fast death.

This was about a month ago. Since then, I've just left the cuprisorb in the XP3 filter. I checked on it today... it's still white! And the copper test still says 0. the GH is a little high at about 13... no change in any other parameters!

The odd thing... no other snails have been affected! I have the garden-variety pest snails running around in the tank fine.

I picked up some ghost shrimp today (33 cents at petsmart... I'm going for the canary/coal mine test here!!). My gut feeling is these guys will be dead pretty quickly too... One is already dead, but he was already rolling before I left petsmart.

So what else could I be missing? What could possibly kill my shrimp and snails (ONLY MTS!) at such break-neck speeds? Could it be potassium?? I dose it at the same ratio as all the other ferts, which is just enough for good growth (I started low, saw deficiencies, and slowly tweaked until algae and signs of deficiencies were eliminated). Is there a possibility that the copper test just sucks SO bad that it's COMPLETELY useless? what about the cuprisorb? I figured, even if there was some copper leaching into the water, a month of constant use would show a LITTLE color change in the cuprisorb.

Anyway, just let me reiterate how quickly things would die... within a few hours, I would see a few dead. Within 8 hours, most were dead. by 24 hours, the few stragglers succumbed as well. So the problem is more than a water parameter that is slightly out of whack... my water is POISON!

since people are going to ask my dosing levels, here is what i have begun to stabilize around...
daily dosing:
nitrogen - about 5ml
phosphorous - about 7ml
potassium - about 12ml
iron - about 8ml
flourish - about 5ml
trace - less than 1ml

the things I can test for are always at 0 (even if they shouldn't be - plants grow too fast!)
nitrates
nitrites
Fe
phosphates
ammonia
copper



So get creative people! Maybe the copper is stuck mostly in the gravel? (Affecting mostly the shrimp and MTS and not the snails on the plants and glass?). Should I get a potassium test kit? I miss my little shrimp friends! they were cute!


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## oregon aqua

Is this a new tank or used? Maybe a used saltwater tank?
Just from my experieance, the things that kill shrimp very fast are:
1. chlorine (also iodine and bromine) Chlorine from tap water, some cities can also add the others i guess, but they are not near as effective as the chlorine. I believe seachem iodide is used in saltwater tanks and ive herd in very small amounts for freshwater shrimps but IODINE is super toxic.

2. Salt, ive herd aquarium salt can get them pretty fast......come to think of it i think chlorine, iodine, and bromine are all salts>?

3. Co2, are you checking with a drop checker? all though i am a fan of my P.H. controller most people are not. I find a drop checker a great back up for telling me my probe is bad or needs to be calibrated.

4. And this one im not sure of but i read somewhere that their is driftwood's out their that can be toxic some of the softer wood types if i remember correctly. Also collected driftwood can have pesticides or poisons in them.

5. Petsmart........ man i not a fan

6. acclimation, how long are you acclimating your new friends? Im impatient but i go for at least 2 hours of dripping water in the bag before i lose my mind and set them free. Though i am assuming you had your first shrimp for awhile before they died?

Im running out of ideas, If you have chlorine, iodine, or bromine in the water thats an easy fix with seachem prime. Salts, well water changes will fix that. Driftwood..... well if your not sure pull it out. 

Maybe set up a second "tester" tank a 10 gallon with nothing but new stuff and see how it goes, then add some stuff from the big tank like filter material, then substrate, then some wood, rock, plants, water and see if the ghost shrimp die or thrive, thats probably what i would due in the end as a last resort?

hope my rambling helped?


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## southerndesert

Are you using Tap water? Might it be treated with Chloramines by your water company It will not dissipate after time like Chlorine does and is deadly to shrimp and other inverts? Seachem Prime will help with this...


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## jpmtotoro

Ha ha... see? I write a huge essay and I STILL omit details.



1) I use seachem prime

2) the only driftwood I have is Malaysian driftwood. No wait... I have a sprig of some unknown origin in there. I'll have to remember when I added it. That might be something worth pondering...

3) The tank was never a salt tank. I have owned it for about 10 years (although I broke it down a while ago, and I set it up again over 6 months ago).

4) Never used any copper meds on it.

5) I will double-check PH again... however, I know I have done so in the past to verify the calibration. Plus, if my CO2 concentration was so low as to be freakishly deadly to inverts, I'm certain my fish would show signs of CO2 poisoning to some degree... right?

6) acclimation was never a problem. And as you assumed, I did have shrimp in there for a while initially... then they all suddenly died. something, somehow, became poisonous.

7) other types of salts?... hmmmm... another thing to ponder


Plus, I'm still baffled why every MTS dies, but I have plenty of other little guys running around. And yes, petsmart sucks... but you can't beat 33 cent canaries!


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## jpmtotoro

PS I'm on city water, not well water.


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## houseofcards

I can just tell you from my experience I have MTS with several shrimp species and no deaths.


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## jpmtotoro

houseofcards - i'm not saying they are killing each other... i'm saying every type of shrimp i add to my tank and every MTS end up dead (except other snails seem to be surviving fine).


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## jpmtotoro

ok... 24 hours later, most of the ghost shrimp are dead, and the few that remain look really awful (i'm sure they'll be dead by morning). I bought 15 yesterday, i could only find 4 "living" ones now (and I really have to stretch the definition of "living" to come up with a count of 4).

nitrates are 0 (ok, maybe 1 or 2... but definitely under 5. the liquid is almost perfectly clear). PH monitor is still in line with what the drop test is telling me.



can anyone verify if they've had terribly odd experience with certain types of driftwood killing their inverts?

Or, i'm still thinking about one of my original thoughts: could the copper from the excess trace dosing have bound itself to the flourite somehow and is being slowly released back into the water?? but then again, even if a little bit of copper was there, it should at least show a LITTLE bit on the copper test, right? and after 5 or 6 weeks of using the cuprisorb, it should at least change color a LITTLE bit... right?? 

i dumped some more prime in there for fun, just to see if it affected their behavior... no change.


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## Minsc

Glass or acrylic?

I've heard horror stories of acrylic tanks that never stopped leaching cleansers used on them.

Have you tested your tap for copper?


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## jpmtotoro

i haven't tested the tap directly... but if the tap contained a decent amount of copper, I'm sure it would have shown up in my tank by now. (also, i only use water from the cold tap to reduce the amount of dissolved junk).

i removed the "unknown" piece of wood just now. IF the wood was collected from a "bad" area (maybe a salty southern swamp?), would it even be possible to soak or boil it clean?

oh, and it's a glass tank. and i've been the only owner.

this is driving me nuts! something is insanely poisonous and i can't seem to find out WHAT 



if the cuprisorb is in the XP3 filter, does the water move TOO quickly through it to react? I've had it in there for about a month, though, and it has shown no color change (and again, the copper tests come back as 0).


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## jpmtotoro

ok, from my 15 "canaries," 14 died. Within 24 hours, 13 died. the 14th died on the 2nd day. somehow, about a week later, I still have ONE shrimp. he's superman...

I've been doing pretty steady water changes (about 20%) 4 to 5 times per week in hopes of helping. I have left the unidentified piece of wood out of the tank for now. all of the malaysian driftwood should be ok (I hope!).

I decided to try another "canary" test while at the store trading plant clippings. The guy gave me 6 decent-looking MTS snails and I put them on a plant near the surface. I noticed one quickly climb off the plant and drop down to the bottom of the tank. I watched him walk about an inch, slow down, then get into his shell. He hasn't moved yet (24 hours later).

So... interesting! Maybe I have deadly substrate. I plan on getting a few ghost shrimp and/or MTSs this week and putting them into a large jar and keeping them for a few days (i'm certain they'll be just fine). Afterwards, I will drop in some of my substrate and see how they react to it.

Anyone have some other testing suggestions?

Perhaps my other snails are alive because they avoid the substrate, as opposed to MTS who usually head straight for it?

Oh, the other 5 MTS... I'm not sure where they are. It's a big tank. I should have colored their shells!


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## dthb4438

That test that you mentioned sound like a good one to me. That way you can eliminate the water as being bad. Why would the substrate be bad after all this time?? Have you done something to it? Maybe there is something living in it. Take a good look at it up close and see if there is anything.


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## Sunstar

oregon aqua said:


> Is this a new tank or used? Maybe a used saltwater tank?
> Just from my experieance, the things that kill shrimp very fast are:
> 1. chlorine (also iodine and bromine) Chlorine from tap water, some cities can also add the others i guess, but they are not near as effective as the chlorine. I believe seachem iodide is used in saltwater tanks and ive herd in very small amounts for freshwater shrimps but IODINE is super toxic.
> 
> 2. Salt, ive herd aquarium salt can get them pretty fast......come to think of it i think chlorine, iodine, and bromine are all salts>?


The marine salt doesn't seem to bother my shrimp much. I use that usually instead of aquarium salt. I have a couple cherry shrimp in my brackish tank which uses instant ocean marine salt. So I would disagree with you here. I feed my shrimp nori because it contains natural idodine.

Chlorine though will do them in fast... Check for chloramine


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## jpmtotoro

i use prime for my water, so chlorine or chloramine shouldn't be an issue (i even use a little extra, just for fun).

the substrate looks good. i use flourite, which is supposed to attract stuff like Iron... i'm assuming it'll also attract and hold copper if it's in the water. This is a possibility, because a while ago i was suffering from a boron deficiency and tried overdosing Trace to get things where they needed to be. It barely helped, but maybe I added too much copper to the tank at this time. After about two weeks of the dosing, I tried using Flourish instead for the boron, which worked well. Flourish has more boron than copper... and Trace has more copper than boron, so it was a dumb move on my part.

still... again... copper tests always come back as 0, and i've used cuprisorb non-stop for about 6 weeks since it is supposed to help fight copper that is leached back from substrates. (I just regenerated it today for fun... it didn't even turn the slightest color of blue after all this time).

it's just odd that MTS and shrimp die... but other snails seem to be fine (and their populations are growing steadily).

there shouldn't be a whole lot of "waste matter." 65 gallon tank with 5 small SAEs and maybe 6 otos. maybe i need to figure out how to syphon the substrate even with all the plants. maybe i need to invent something. i could use a very small piece of PVC... then some tubing... hook it up to a pump if i have to (not sure if the syphoning power would work very well with the small PVC.) then i could shove it in the gravel without disturbing the roots very much. maybe use like 1/2" or 3/4" diameter PVC or something. just to get some mulm out... however little there may be.


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## Sunstar

Ghost shrimp don't do well at the best of times. At least ones bought from the store. I never had a store bought one live for more than a few days - two weeks.

As for an indicator species, snails are pretty good. they are what I use. 

I have had a mysterious die off of cherry shrimp myself, I have moved the colony out of that tank and put it in my main tank, keeping a 3rd colony isolated entirely. I am wondering if my food was affecting them. 

Have you medicated with panacur? that kills nerites. I lost two. Shrimp and MTS seem okay for it.

Although you have tested for copper, is there any chance there might be copper wire, bits of lead or anything rusting in the water? 

Is the food you are feeding that which contains copper as a preservative? 

I know you've done the tests, but lets check all possible aspects. Can you remember what food you used back during armageddon?


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## jpmtotoro

actually... i barely ever feed. i sometimes SOMETIMES put in some hikari algae wafer things... but very rarely. everything in my tank is for clean-up (and yes, they apparently have enough food, everything else is growing and happy, but it's a very sparsely populated tank). i maybe feed them only once or twice a month.

(oh and before i forget, i appreciate the brainstorming help. i'm totally stumped).

anyway, almost no food. the only medication i've ever put in the tank is the stuff to fight BGA (maracyn I) sometime in the past. this was ROUGHLY the same time as my troubles began... it was all related to terrible nutrient balance. i would fight one thing, win, then something else would crop up. i finally got everything cruising very nicely, but something seems to have dome some icky icky damage.

as for the ghost shrimp... when i initially had shrimp in the tank, they were fine for many, many months (including the ghosts!). i've always had excellent luck with the little buggers. and unfortunately, i DID try to do the canary thing with some small batches of red cherries in the past, when i finally had the nutrients down and everything was stable. that was an expensive mistake. that's why i've reverted to 33-cent ghost shrimp and practically-free MTS.

as for my water... i only use the cold water when filling, so that should hopefully reduce the amount of metals in it. i will find out if my water is insanely toxic when i try my little experiment, i suppose.

i was flabbergasted when i saw the snail curl up in front of my eyes and stop. i have krptonite in my tank and i can't figure it out!

so if we assume copper is actually at 0... you are suggesting other metals could be doing them in. i think cuprisorb is supposed to attract many other metals as well. right?


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## jpmtotoro

PS, nice starscream site


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## Sunstar

I was thinking the food for your fish. I have some stuff here that contains copper and a shrimp breeder locally advised strongly against the use of food with copper in it because shrimp will eat it. 

Thanks for the complement.


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## jpmtotoro

ha ha, i'm serious! no feeding! no flake food, blood worms, etc. i just have 5 SAEs and a few otos and I make them work for their meal! If I ever give them anything, it's just algae tabs... and that's very rarely. the focus of my tank is actually the plants


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## Sunstar

Okay... no feeding. You have me stumpped.


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## jpmtotoro

i know! and even if it some odd mineral/chemical/whatever... i don't think there are any good tests. i've done just about everything out there except for a potassium test.

i'll run some tests this week (assuming i can get my hands on some sacrificial ghost shrimp or MTS). i can test the tap water, the tank water, and the substrate too.

i wish we had some crazy snail gurus on here. maybe someone would know something that MTS can't handle, but other snails could (perhaps they are even more sensitive to iodine, or lead, or copper, or salt, or something?).

but at the rate the other snails are going, i'm thinking i may need to invest in a loach soon. go figure!


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## Bettatail

check your heater- not the temperature, I am sure the temp is fine, but, a heater or anything can give a small leakage of electrical current will kill small size livestocks in your tank slowly. ground an amp meter to the tank water to see if there is any leakage.


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## jpmtotoro

hmm... damn leaking electrons! it's actually an odd suggestion... but i'm at my wit's end so i'll entertain the possibility. i'll try to get my hands on a meter and check it out.

in the mean time, my experiment has begun!

6 ghost shrimp into my tank

6 ghost shrimp into a glass egg nog bottle  the water consists of tap water plus the petsmart water and some Prime. If the shrimp can live in this crap, they can live in anything!


so far, we'll see. it's been about 3 hours. the shrimp in the egg nog bottle are easy to see, and are acting perfectly normal. the shrimp in my tank disappeared already. sometimes i can spot one, but they aren't being very active. i did another small water change and i guess we'll just see how it works out.


after a few days, if the shrimp are ok in my small bottle, i'll add some of my substrate. we'll see if that knocks 'em dead. IF somehow it doesn't, i'll start adding some of the tank water to it, too. i should do this scientifically with a control group and 2 or 3 experimental groups... oh well, this'll just have to do for now.


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## jpmtotoro

wow... 24 hours later and a bunch of dead shrimp litter the bottom of my aquarium.

the 6 shrimp placed in the glass egg nog bottle are perfectly happy. no aeration. no water movement. i just did a small water change. the temp dropped quite cold overnight and got decently toasty during the day... they are fine.

i guess i'll put some of my flourite into the egg nog bottle tonight and see how they do. this'll be interesting...


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## Sunstar

Okay, that is interesting, abeit scary for shrimp. Something's up doc. 

Split your control group. Three into a bottle three with the flourite. if they drop dead...


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## jpmtotoro

yeah, i split my control group last night. of course, i didn't want to KILL a bunch of shrimp... so i left 5 in the egg nog bottle (very happy little guys). i then moved one poor sucker into a Smucker's jelly jar with a handful of my substrate.

as of this morning... everybody was still alive! even through the cold night again! and through the random water changes (i'm giving them small water changes twice a day since there is no movement or aeration). i'll check again when i get back. so i'm really confused now. if the little bugger is still alive when i get home, then i'd have to say my substrate isn't as evil as i thought. if he's alive, maybe i'll put some of the aquarium water into the smucker's jar. that'll at least tell me if there is something in the WATER killing him, or perhaps something else (like the idea of a slight electrical current in the water).


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## jpmtotoro

well, it's not the substrate. that shrimp is fine. of course, 2 or 3 died from the egg nog bottle... but i think i may have cooked them today (sitting near a light). poor guys...

regardless, not the substrate. i brought home a multimeter that i borrowed at work... so what exactly am i searching for?

i started with checking AC... i filled up a water bottle and checked and it was 0.5V or something (nothing, basically). when i held it, i got about 3V. if i stick it in the electrical outlet, i get about 121V so that's good. when i drop it in my tank though, i'm getting about 35 to 40V. however, i have tried turning off a ton of stuff (heater, UV filter, pumps, etc) to no avail. and i'm not even certain that this is BAD or not (but i'm ASSUMING it should be close to 0). sadly enough, i'll admit this is my first time playing with a multimeter and i don't have an electrical background.

little guidance anyone?


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## AshK

First off, quit subjecting shrimp and snails to pointless deaths. You _know_ there is something wrong, no point in adding more shrimp to their death, especially when you are not actively changing anything in your tank around.

You said the focus on this tank is plants anyway, why not forgot about shrimp and MTS?


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## jpmtotoro

yeah ummm... not sure how to put this nicely... but perhaps if you actually read this, you'll see the only thing i have done is changed things to try to rectify this issue. if i felt like continuing to kill shrimp and snails, i'd just keep buying 'em and putting 'em in!

so instead... if you have nothing CONSTRUCTIVE to say, i'm going to continue on trying to find out WHY things are going the way they are with all the helpful people here. And MAYBE, just maybe, if i can find out what is causing this, it'll help other people in the future.

so... suggestions on voltage, anyone? if anyone else has a multimeter handy, can you verify readings for me?


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## KraKen

Do you have a ground-fault interrupter on this setup? if you do you don't really have to worry about electricity doing it, also if that were the case the current would kill everything (including you) not just the shrimp and MTS. I'm not sure what the voltage reading of the tank means as I've never seen measurements of another tank before.

It might be that you substrate has gone anaerobic and is emitting toxic compounds that get oxidized before they reach the higher water column so they only effect the creatures close to the substrate, this would explain why the shrimp in the jelly jar survived since the substrate would have passed though well oxygenated water and air while you transfered it. You could try dropping a pest snail onto the substrate and seeing what happens.

Good luck


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## oregon aqua

try filling the same bottle with aquarium water and see what the reading is? just a thought. 40vac seems like a lot of voltage to pick up. And you may have a auto adjusting meter that adjust the settings and may be reading 40 millivolts. I do believe if you had a broken component you would be fully aware by other deaths. Im am interested in what my tank would read but will have to bring my meter home tomorrow. 

While doing your experiments don't forget to try that one peice of driftwood, to see if its safe.


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## jpmtotoro

Kraken,

that's a good suggestion too about the substrate. If that's the case, i'd be happy because a good gravel vac could help. I just purchased a very SMALL diameter syphon, so maybe i can get in between the plants a little and get some of the mulm. might be a weekend project.

as for the voltage leak, i started doing some research... apparently it actually happens in saltwater tanks quite a bit. and people were getting voltages of 30 to 40V sometimes (I'm reading 35 to 40V). there are articles on how to track it, replacing equipment, and even suggestions of running a ground water into your water!
http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm
here's an example. seems to be mostly relating to saltwater aquariums, but could also be relevant for freshwater as well (especially with a high GH??). apparently 30V you really wouldn't feel so much, and most fish can actually survive in low voltage situations (it just messes 'em up a little). particularly weak animals (such as shrimp) could be very affected.

i tried unplugging all of my stuff one by one, but it did not reduce the voltage at all. then again, the water may have no way to discharge (so maybe i DO need to plug it into the ground?). I just don't know about electricity so much. maybe i can unplug everything and stick my hand in... will it discharge into me?

also, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the voltage AND the amps matter for the type of shock you receive. i checked the amps also on the water and the reading was extremely low (I think i was measuring in micro-amps). so maybe it's not enough to jolt me.

i dunno, this is all very fascinating. in all my years of fish-keeping, i've never even heard of this! after learning about it, i kind of hope this is what it is. i mean, if all these deaths are occuring because of some MULM BUILDUP, it's very anticlimactic, isn't it?


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## Minsc

You got me curious, so I did a bit of research over on the saltwater side of things, where they use much more electricity and have issues such as salt creep...

It sounds like a reading of 40 volts is possible, and it would not be a good thing.

Here is a post I stole for you about how to use a meter properly:



> 1) You need a digital multimeter(I've seen them for $4 @ Harbor Freight.I use a $400+ Fluke @ work, for this test the $4 will work as well IMO)A analog (scale and ind. needle)meter is not sensitive enuf)
> Set the meter to millivolts (AC), take one lead to ground (the screw in the middle of your outlet, or the ROUND opening in the outlet) and with all you electrical devices on/operating(make sure for this test your heater is on at this time) and stick the other meter lead into the tank water. Read the meter, and if it reads "OL" set the meter to "ac volts" and read the voltage(If it reads this high, i'm sure you have a REAL problem.) Unplug a electrical device one at a time and then check the meter reading(good idea to have a helper either read off and chart the readings, or do the unplugging of devices) and obviously the device that causes the largest increase/decrease in the readings, is the biggest part of your problem.
> Repair, or probably replace the device that is defective.


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## Minsc

Never mind, you beat me to it!


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## jpmtotoro

wow!! ok, get this! i filled up a 20oz plastic bottle with some aquarium water. i measured it on the bathroom counter. it got about 1V (same as the other stuff). then i tested the water in the aquarium again; a little over 30V.

now here's the cool part...

i left the probe in the plastic bottle (with the water). i then lowered the bottle into the aquarium water. as soon as it touched the water, it voltage jumped back up to 30V! when i took it out, it lowered immediately back to about 2V (because I was holding it). I repeated it a bunch of times.

Apparently electrical current flows easily through thin plastic! So... maybe i'm on to something here?? thank you for the plastic bottle suggestion! but... now what? i guess i'll just unplug EVERYTHING from the wall and see if i can get it to drop.

oh, and it doesn't auto-switch between V and microV. I checked that after you suggested it.


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## oregon aqua

jpmtotoro said:


> ................ replacing equipment, and even suggestions of running a ground water into your water!


Adding a path to ground would be a bad idea, as now instead of having a stray voltage you will have a current with a path to ground. 


jpmtotoro said:


> also, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the voltage AND the amps matter for the type of shock you receive. i checked the amps also on the water and the reading was extremely low (I think i was measuring in micro-amps). so maybe it's not enough to jolt me.


Yes AMPS kill not volts. But you can def feel volts (rub your feet on the carpet, and well, you know, static shock = high volts low amp)

When you get to unplugging everything, unplug your lights also as they can induce a voltage.

Jeremy


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## Karebear

Odds are that it is your heater. It happens a lot at the store, first you notice that the scratches on your hands burn in the tank. Later if you touch something that grounds, you get shocked. If not that I would check any other electrical cords that are contacting water inside the tank.

Good luck


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## 1aqumfish

Make sure you unplug each device not just turn it off also I would not put any plugs back in for the test, remove one after the other until the volts measured inside the tank drop. Also do you have any other wires touching your tank or tank equipment? Heater light pumps etc. Be careful with this it could get dangerous if a leak turns to a failure. I would use the meter before putting my hand into the water until this problem is resolved.


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## jpmtotoro

oh yeah, someone asked about GFI... to be honest, i'm not certain, but i don't think so (GFI outlets are the ones in the bathroom with the TEST button, correct?) it's just a normal wall outlet.

i plan on doing two things...

first, trying to find the source. i'll just start unplugging everything. my list of equipment is as follows:
lighting
mag drive pump
rena filstar
heater
C02 equipment (solenoid, PH probe/controller)
UV sterilizer

i tried doing some of them one-by-one last night, but couldn't find the source. but i'll give it a real go tomorrow night (not free tonight, unfortunately). i'll just start unplugging everything.

secondly, i'm thinking of getting a titanium grounding probe. although you are right... it would create a current... but i'm still inclined to try since they actually make this product and it's specifically for things like this, apparently (however it would be a backup-solution... i have to find the actual CAUSE anyway!).

a probe like this:
http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...be?&query=grounding+probe&queryType=0&offset=

i hope this doesn't turn into a wild goose chase... i'd love to get this solved! i'll post again when i find more info.

and thanks everyone for the brainstorming help! this has definitely been elusive


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## 1aqumfish

One more thing is this AC volts or DC volts? If it is AC volts do not check for DC volts. If it is DC it could be coming from a nearby source but this is unlikely.

Tony


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## jpmtotoro

AC

i'm thinking it was only around 5 milliamps though, so not much of a shock. i'm really itching to get back and run tests. my mind is running a mile a minute right now!


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## 1aqumfish

So this voltage should be removed when all the plugs are out. Also is anything else plugged into the outlet? Or any other power cords near the tank, not tank equipment?

Tony


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## Bettatail

now you can have shrimps in your tank.

I had that problem when I was 11 years old. my fish in the small tank slowly died off, and I had a big water jug full of small shrimps, but they just couldn't stayed longer than 3 days in my aquarium.
It was a big buzzle for a kid but got it solve, unintentionally. I was poking around with the screw drive & voltage indicator to any poweroutlets, and tried it on the aquarium water.. it lited, I was the ground, a circuit was formed, voltage existed.........

A death trap for shrimps is always the sign, something in the water gives out abnormal voltages, because shrimps are small, and are packs of PROTEIN, protein + electric current = cooked, electric current on other organic compounds such as fat doesn't affect as much as on protein. that is why shrimps die, but other fish of similar size still alive.


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## Bettatail

when you ground yourself to the water, you can feel what the shrimps feel like when the voltage is 36V+, normally a tank filled with different electric equipments have electric current, a light bulb from a flashlight can do the trick, ground yourself to the water and form a circuit with light bulb in between, you will know...


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## Sunstar

How do you ground yourself to the water.


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## oregon aqua

I just ran into this http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...tes/78461-why-cant-i-keep-shrimp-alive-7.html they list Prime as the culprit.

I have had a water clarifier suddenly kill some micro rasboras and ramshorn snails before, it was pretty much within a couple of hours of adding it, My shrimp went nuts and one jumped out but i had no other deaths. i put in .25ml for 4 gallons.


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## Bettatail

bare foot on concret(some carpet or hardwood floor don't work), or make sure youself touch any conductor which connect to the ground... if the leaking volt in the tank is over 36v, you can feel it...:mmph:


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## jpmtotoro

nice Prime article!

you know, I can't remember when I switched over to Prime. so that's another possibility. I will go pick up another brand today or this weekend and see how it goes.

also, i had a few minutes yesterday so i went nuts with unplugging stuff. here are the basics:
no other things are plugged into the same outlet, absolutely no other electrical equipment nearby (except for the wires in the wall).

it looks like the stray voltage might be coming from everything. i started to remove everything, one by one, and the voltage slowly dropped. 4 volts here, 6 volts there... very interesting. however, when i was done, i was STILL left with 10 volts. there was absolutely NOTHING else plugged in. nothing. i can only imagine it was coming from the electrical wires in the wall behind the tank.

i plugged the ground probe in, but that didn't seem to make the fish very happy... after a few hours, the otos were acting very peculiarly. so I yanked the probe out (no sense killing all my fish!). I am going to replace the heater and my filstar XP3 motor/impeller (it's old anyway and weak; it's a good excuse).

as for the prime mixing with other chemicals... the only thing i'm putting in there is stuff made by seachem. i would HOPE that they would test the compatibilities back in the lab. however, i'm still gonna try to switch to something else and see how it goes. i know i wasn't using Prime originally (i think i was just using Start Right or something). and i totally forgot about the stupid idea of activated carbon! i never use any (planted tank!), but if there is a chemical issue, i will try to run carbon for a few days and keep going with the water changes.

either the voltage leak or the Prime are possibilities. I mean, i keep doing water changes... and dumping more Prime into the tank! so that's not a bad idea.

thanks again for all the brainstorming guys and gals! i'll give everyone feedback again ASAP. and i think i might try to ground myself and stick my hand in the tank for fun tonight


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## jpmtotoro

and the other suggestion that i'm not dismissing is some of the driftwood. i removed the unknown sprig, but i still have 4 large pieces of malaysian driftwood. i'm pretty sure 2 of them are fine because i had them in my tank in the beginning and everything was fine. But I did add one piece in the late summer. Hypothetically... IF there was SOMETHING in that wood that was being leached into the tank, how long would it continue to leach? A month? 6 months? a year? forever and ever and ever? I soaked it in the bathtub for about 2 days before using it.

i just haven't removed the pieces yet because they are HUGE. and covered with plants, now.

just don't want to dismiss any other suggestions even though i have a few good ones i'm tackling already. 

when this is done, i think this will be the ultimate "why are my shrimp dying?" thread! i think we've come close to testing everything possible!


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## 1aqumfish

Hi jpmtotoro;

This is weird but not impossible. Can you turn off circuit breakers in your house? The power has to be coming from somewhere. It could come from the wiring in the wall if it has perfect conditions like a transformer from the primary to the secondary. This would explain why removing the plugs reduces the voltage but not eliminates it (lower current smaller field). It would be more odd but still possible to still have the voltage after the breaker is off. I really think this should be addressed even if this is not the cause of the shrimp deaths. You could use your light to know you got the right breaker off and check the tank voltage at that point. If this gets the voltage out of your water you probably don't have a outlet ground all the way back to the power panel… bad bad bad, if this is the case you might need an electrician to fix this and if you do have them install a GFI outlet 15 - 20 bucks could save your life, and I have changed mine for safety too.

Tony


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## Akaizhar

Dont forget to check your canister filter. That could be doing it too.


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## jpmtotoro

ok, tonight, i have waged an all-out war.

i replaced my visitherm 300watt heater with a rena 300 watt heater (still not the best brand, but visitherm is super cheap). i also unplugged my in-line UV sterilizer (it is a cheap brand and i don't trust it). stray voltage was reduced from 35 to 7 volts. so that is improvement. i also put activated carbon in the filter. this will be a temporary thing... but in case ANYTHING is in the water, i want it gone. my plants can suffer for a week, they will survive.

i put some shrimp in tap water with a different dechlorinator (my old one), some i left in the petsmart water, and some in my aquarium water. tomorrow morning will be interesting. i am only using 2 shrimp per experiment. i still feel bad sacrificing them. even though my hope is that they all live, history tells me the opposite is likely to happen. but i am feeling better. i have a lot of possibilities (suggested by you guys here) and i am tackling just about all of them now. maybe i will finally figure this out!

just have to wait to see what morning brings...

oh, an the ground probe is out right now. with the reduction of stray voltage to a more normal level, i am hoping i can do without it (everyone else seems to be able to). if it does not work out, i will try adding it.

and i will be adding GFCI coverage to the outlet that powers the aquarium. seems to be the smart thing to do


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## jpmtotoro

i have a filstar xp3... i ordered a new motor and impeller today as well (plus all the o-rings). needed to be changed anyway. it should arrive next week sometime.


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## 1aqumfish

7 Volts now that is getting much better!

Tony


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## rjfurbank

very interesting thread--thanks for the methodical problem solving.

keep up posted what you find out.

regarding the carbon--I don't think it affects the plants too much--I use it on all of my tanks and the plants do fine.


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## jpmtotoro

i was worried about the activated carbon sucking too many nutrients out of the water. but the prospect of having some sort of "poison" floating in the tank was too disconcerting. i'll run the carbon for a few days (assuming the shrimp live).

so far, only 1 shrimp death (of the 6 I have been testing since last night). and the other ones seem to be acting somewhat normal... knock on wood. it's been about 15 hours so far. good, but not out of the woods yet.


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## Chris.

That voltage drop was tremendous! Good job. Whats the problem with using activated carbon in a planted tank?


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## oregon aqua

They say that activated carbon filters out the nutrients for the plants, Problem is after a couple of weeks the carbon is plugged up and turns more into a biological filter then a chemical filter.


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## jpmtotoro

jeez, it never ends!

i checked my voltage again this morning... 69 Volts!! checked it again this evening... 69 Volts! I disconnected my UV sterilizer and replaced a crappy visitherm with (another crappy?) rena smartheater (each is 300 watts). Where did my 7 volts go???

however, even with the 69V, the fish seem alright, and oddly enough at least 1 shrimp has made it safely until 1am and he's acting perfectly normal. the other 2 i released also might be perfectly fine (i can only see the shrimp if they HAPPEN to walk in the front of the tank). the two others I had holding in the plastic bottle were also fine (being in the tank they were still subjected to the stray voltage), so i just released them as well. i will just try to keep an eye on them.

i actually wish i could just hire a "pro" to come in and find the actual cause. like a "plumber" for aquariums!


and i agree about the activated carbon... i'll have to watch my plants over the next few days for signs of any deficiencies. but what i have is pretty robust so i think i needn't concern myself with them just yet; they'll do fine.


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## Chris.

What type of media would you use besides activated carbon? I have a planted 20g, and I'm using a toms rapids mini canister which came with floss/carbon and ceramic cylinders, and a Aquatech Power Filter 5-15 HOB. It uses type A filter pads that have activated carbon in them. I wonder if this might be a reason I have such a problem with BBA in my tank...


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## jpmtotoro

normally i use no chemical filtration. i use the sponges for mechanical filtration, and then a bed of ceramic rings for biological filtration. that's usually about it


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## jpmtotoro

no change 

activated carbon, not helping
replacement heater, not helping
grounding probe, not helping
switching from Prime to something else... probably not helping, too early to tell.

guess i'll have to plan for the next round. i picked up a breeding net/cage so i can closely monitor them in the aquarium. i'll need to run some more tests on the aquarium water. last time, i only tested it for about 12 hours but i should have done it for more like 36 hours.

again i'm thinking about the malaysian driftwood... again, i'm trying to think of a way of testing if it's something in the wood or not without actually removing the pieces (they are LARGE and all have attached plants). but if i need to, i need to. luckily, i added them all at very different times so IF it is one of the pieces of wood, i think i know which one the culprit would be.

*great big sigh*


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## Bettatail

take a little piece from driftwood, grind it and mix with fish food, then get some feeder fish or ghost shrimp and feed them. 
In south asia some certain types of woods are posion, it is traditionally used as posion agent for hunting. they are rare, really hard to find! almost all these woods are listed as endangered species.
if you the one you have is from those killer tree, you are lucky, but I don't know what you can do with it though.


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## Bettatail

Antiaris toxicaria


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## jpmtotoro

ha ha... poison tree... condemned people had to fetch it... i love stories like that!

the wood looks like malaysian driftwood and i'm mostly certain it is... but i am not certain if it was actually labeled as such at the place i bought it from. it was just THERE and screamed "buy me and put me in your tank and marvel in wonder at my splendidness!"

so i did, and i have... i'm not sure if i can break a small piece off (it's like a huge log!), but... a knife and some swearing go a long way sometimes. i'll take a crack at it.


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## jpmtotoro

alright... me + knife > big chunk of wood

i splintered off a decent number of chunks and put two shrimp into a jar with the pieces. not using the aquarium water.

i also took a large "landscaping" rock and some substrate and put them into another container with 2 other shrimp. i have never come across a rock creating trouble... but at this point, i'm not ruling anything out. i have two or three types for decoration. they just came from a huge "bin" at a LFS. i'll test the different types one-by-one.

the rest of the shrimp are going to hang tight in another container with some plants, completely free of all the "evils" of my aquarium.

i actually rescued two shrimp yesterday and today, so i'm happy (and intrigued). the poor guys had no fight left in them; they were just ready to die. i reached in and picked 'em up with my hands and just dropped them into dechlorinated tap water in a jar. surprisingly, not only did they live through the shock, but they perked back up after an hour or two. the poor guys earned a vacation.

i also recalibrated my probe today for fun and re-tested my KH just for peace of mind... tank is sitting at 6.8 PH and KH is 3 degrees. according to my handy-dandy little chart, it's about 14ppm which should be barely sufficient for the plants and certainly not bad for any other life forms in the tank.


and i'm also just gonna throw something out there... has anyone ever run across a standard-ish aquarium plant that was poisonous to inverts?? (no, i don't have any crazy plants... actually all of them were actually purchased at LFSes!)


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## Bettatail

electric leakage don't kill fish that fast if the tank is isolated(no connection to ground):
yesterday I arrived home and found out the filter on my 10g tank is off. and the slack water temp is about 15 degree difference between top and bottom. I turn on the filter, hot and cold water start mixing up. couple minutes later I heard a crack sound, didn't know what happen, but found out after five minutes, the heater tube was filled with water! 
so lucky I didn't touch the water, and for 5 minutes under 110v leakage all fish in 10G were fine, but if there was any circuit formed to ground, all fish would have been cooked.

put your shrimp in isolate bottle (float, the bottle in the tank, no water exchange between tank water and bottle water, but may sure electric current can pass through with two wires connect between.
if shrimps die, it is not the water or any materials disolved in the main tank kill the shrimp-it is the electric current.
if they survive, it is some chemicals in the main tank kill your shrimp, and = keep the thread going.


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## jpmtotoro

i had the shrimp in the tank with the ground probe and without, which made no change. i take that as meaning "electricity not an issue."

also, the shrimp have been in with the chunks of wood for 36 hours and they are perfectly happy still. i also have some in with a handful of my substrate again... they are doing well.

i'm thinking about trying a CO2 test next. i have a breeder's net that i can hang in my tank. i can put some shrimp in there and put a small bubbler under it so the water directly in that corner of the tank will be oxygenated. i'm still not expecting the CO2 to be the issue, but i can't take anything for granted right now i think.

i have been primarily using "things" from my aquarium (rocks, substrate, wood, etc) plus dechlorinated tap water for the majority of my tests. i may also try one where i just use water straight from my aquarium to see how they do. if they do poorly, it'll verify my suspicion that the voltage is fine and something in the water is evil.


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## tex627

try purigen? its known to solve many unknown problems, its been working for me so far.


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## jpmtotoro

purigen... i'll have to consider it.

ok, i put some in a breeding net/cage in my tank and stick a small bubbler right next to it (make sure there was plenty of oxygen). no luck. i did a nice, thorough gravel cleaning last night (got a tiny one so i could squeeze between my plants) which also didn't help (one more death this morning).

on the bright side, it now takes about 72 hours for them to die instead of 8-12. this makes testing a bit more difficult, but is a good sign (i guess). the only real "changes" i've done to the tank are adding activated carbon and a grounding probe.

i'm down to two poor shrimp (this is good though... this was from 7 purchased 5 or 6 days ago). definitely slower mortality rate...

i really wish i could remember what else happened when this started happening. i think i am going to remove one of the huge pieces of wood. *sigh* otherwise i'm again running out of things to test...


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## Chris.

I don't remember...what kind of shrimp are they? Ghost shrimp don't do well at all in my tanks for some reason. they would live for a few days to a week and just disappear or die. My gourami and rams probably scared them to death. It seems I always have one random fish death every few months also. It's weird. I do weekly water changes at 40-50% and change the filter pad probably twice a month. I dont vac the gravel for the sake of keeping nutrients in it for the plants(other than just getting poop off the substrate during a water change).


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## jpmtotoro

first time posting pictures...

can anyone identify these rocks and let me know if i should be worried about any of them? there are 2 others in the tank, but they are the same type as what is listed in these pictures.


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## jpmtotoro

here is an older picture of the tank (while the plants were smaller) just so you can see the wood pieces in the tank. currently, i have removed the "branch" in the front left, and also the large "root" on the right side.

there are two other pieces currently against the back wall with plants attached to them, plus the piece on the left side with the "arm."

has anyone else had an issue keeping shrimp with malaysian driftwood? does it make the water too soft and acidic? i'm running out of ideas here...


maybe "seeing" my tank setup will help everyone. the intakes are in each back corner and spray bars in the center of the tank. one side is for the XP3 filter, and the other side is a mag drive pump with my CO2 reactor on it.


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## Crispino Ramos

IME, CRS die off in high tech tank, I've had 70 CRS that died in my planted high tech tank (Tek light, pressurized CO2, EI fertilizer dosing, RO/DI water). I've had CRS in low light, low ferts, planted tank and they were able to breed with a few CRS that died. Now, I just raise CRS in a 20 gallon tank, with RO/DI water, low light, Taiwan moss. No fertilizer. So far I only had one CRS that died.


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## jpmtotoro

well, i also can't seem to keep MTS or ANY other shrimp alive. even ghost shrimp. and those guys can live in 20 oz water bottles for a week, easily! (I know, I've been testing...).


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## jpmtotoro

sonofabeep

c'mon, someone ask me if i have any DIY stuff on my tank... cuz i do. like a reactor, and inlet/output/spraybar. it didn't even occur to me that this could be a source of evil since i had been using it for many, many years and was originally in a tank with amanos that did fine. but, if it was leeching something, it could have finally reached a lethal concentration level of something (toxic chemical, zinc, who knows). i didn't think of anything since James Hoftiezer walked me through it (and in my eyes, he's a god at this stuff) but that doesn't mean I didn't do something wrong. i'm going to grab the inlet/output replacement kit for rena filstar filters and use that instead.

i will replace all the equipment as fast as i can get my hands on the stuff i need and i'll do some more water changes and check again.

i still want some input on my rocks though... i'm ASSUMING they are inert; someone please correct me if i'm wrong!

this better fix it... grrrrr...


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## Cliff Mayes

Unfortunately I do not have any instant answers but I do have a couple of warnings.

First of all never use your body to test electricity! GFIs or GFCIs can be an outlet with a test button or a Circuit Breaker in your box. The outlet types have been used because they are inexpensive. Any circuit that deals with a wet environment needs to be protected with a GFI. It is aggravating to find and fix a fault in a circuit but better irritated than dead! It only takes millivolts to stop a heart under the right conditions. Any time you touch a tank all electricity should be off. Juice should always be 0. Anytime there is stray juice it should be fixed ASAP.

Second get, if one is available, an experienced Hobbyist to look at your setup and ask a bunch of questions. Diagnosing over the NET does not work very well at times. There may have been some change that everyone assumes is benign that is not. A lot of Club members or active Hobbyists should be more than willing to help or maybe a LFS that you frequent can suggest some help. Myself or a bunch of people I know would help if you were anywhere within reason.


The rocks interest me. Your ph seems within the range of normal but there may be some other bad chemical building up that no one knows about. You DIY stuff does not seem that it should be a problem but who knows?


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## Bettatail

First, the blue tint in your rock interest me, then, search Michigan and copper, find out Michigan has copper mines. 
--Copper! found the sample of your ROCKS!


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## Bettatail

hopefully my guess is right this time. below is the rock sample from the copper mine:
Calidonia mine, Mass City, Ontonagon County, Michigan, USA.


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## Bettatail

maybe I am wrong again, copper mines of Mi are in upper Mi, but the blue tint of your rock does look like covellite. please, do a Cu test of your tank water if you have the Cu test kit.


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## jpmtotoro

Cliff,

I already purchased a GFCI adapter which actually should have arrived by now... I'll have to check the shipping. But the tank is near the bathroom and i ran an extension cord into there and used that GFCI outlet (without tripping it). I think the stray voltage thing ended up being a wild goose chase (but I still learned a lot, which is always good; i'm sure others did as well). Since I'm in an apartment, I cannot update the outlets (ok, maybe I could, but i'm not going to). I came across this and I will give it a try. perhaps it will be useful to other users who are in similar situations:

http://www.seaquestmarine.com/Tower_5_OUTLET_GFCI_Portable_Safety_Outlet_p/tmg_30339015.htm

this isn't the place i ordered it from, but it's the first place that popped up on google.

bettatail,

as for the rocks and copper... i just picked them up at the LFS. I have no idea the contents or if they were even harvested from MI. I have run copper tests (and even put cuprisorb in the tank) and i'm 99.99% sure there is not a significant amount of copper in the tank (everything comes back as zero and the cuprisorb never reacts with anything). however, they have still been removed temporarily along with some of the wood. after i pin down the culprit, i will slowly start re-adding these things and monitor the effects. i will take another look at the rock(s) with blue in them. in the past, the only rocks i had ever used were sandstone so i never did any research on other types. i just assumed these would be ok.

but my DIY rig worries me more. it has a few brass threaded barbs for the hose connectors (yeah... brass). In addition, there are some painted surfaces in contact with the water. i know plenty of people who suggest this and have never had any problems with this sort of thing, but also plenty of people who have had terrible consequences. perhaps this is the source of my ire. it's worth gutting. i just ordered all the inlet/output parts for a rena filstar XP filter (no more DIY spraybar), and I will also search for plastic hose barbs for my pondmaster 3 pump. that's gonna be the hard part. i used the brass years ago because it's all they had that would fit! maybe lowe's will have a better selection. otherwise, i'll have to go shopping online...


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## jpmtotoro

Cliff Mayes said:


> Second get, if one is available, an experienced Hobbyist to look at your setup and ask a bunch of questions. Diagnosing over the NET does not work very well at times. There may have been some change that everyone assumes is benign that is not. A lot of Club members or active Hobbyists should be more than willing to help or maybe a LFS that you frequent can suggest some help. Myself or a bunch of people I know would help if you were anywhere within reason.


unfortunately there aren't a lot of good places left anymore near me. the few places that do exist are rarely staffed with good people. there is one guy who is pretty darn good and i've already picked his brain clean. short of that, everyone's answer is just "uhhhh... copper?"

bottom line... your collective brainpower trumps anything i have locally!  and that's also why i posted pictures of the tank... in hopes that someone might SEE something that i am assuming is safe.

just gotta continue to be methodical. of course, at this rate, i will have replaced EVERYTHING in, on, and around my aquarium.

i think i can, i think i can, i think i can...


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## jpmtotoro

update:

after I got ticked off at the brass and DIY spraybar and ripped 'em out of my tank and did another small water change, i just released the last 4 ghost shrimp into the tank. they didn't look that great, but they were alive. the following day, i actually saw all 4 shrimp again. they were pretty lethargic and hiding in one spot, but alive. i've been doing 20% water changes daily now to slowly remove "whatever" from the tank (and with the equipment out, hopefully "whatever" won't be added back!). so 3 days after, i managed to find two of the shrimp acting pretty darn normally (i may have more, but i found 2). their coloration was going back to normal (more of a clear) and they were busily foraging. i think i will pick up a few more ghost shrimp in a few days and see how they do. in the mean time... more water changes and hopefully getting my new equipment in the mail by tomorrow so i can have a weekend project!

i was getting close to taking "Ol' Monday" to my tank, i was so frustrated! (and if anyone is following a certain DIY thread, they'll know what "Ol' Monday" is)


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## Fishtory

I hope you've solved the problem. I had a tank for a long time, then added some large rocks I'd picked up locally....went through the hair-tearing stress like you have to try to figure out why everything would slowly die off in the tank. Water changes did the trick but as soon as I quit they dying off started again.

These were fish I'd had 6+ years so I hated it. Finally took out the 2 rocks (they had passed the acid test btw) and did a few more water changes--problem solved. Unfortunately I lost all my older fish. It didn't start til months after the rock addition, so I didn't connect it.


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## jpmtotoro

it seems to be a little better, but still not great. the ghost shrimp are surviving for a few days now (instead of hours), but are still slowly dying off little by little. on the bright side, the fish are behaving better as well. they were fine before, but they are just a tiny bit more active now. especially the otos. the shrimp that are surviving are acting pretty normal. normally, they would kind of hide and sit down and not move. but most of them are foraging for food actively and swimming around (no barrel rolls!). but, every once in a while, i'll find a dead one.

i replaced the mag pump and hoses and brass barbs and DIY PVC stuff. i'm still doing 20% water changes about 5 days a week. just trying to slowly bring down whatever it is that might be in there. i removed all decorative rocks and i just have 3 pieces of malaysian driftwood in there now.

i tried putting a few MTS in the tank, but they quickly retreated into their shells and stayed there. i pulled them back out and put 'em into a 1 liter glass jar and i'll leave them in there for now. maybe i'll let them stay in there for a while and see if i can get a small colony going.

so, nothing is solved yet. i keep itching to start putting stuff back in, but i think it's best to leave it out for now. i already put the rocks in bags and into the closet (out of sight, out of mind).

i've implemented as many changes as i could think of (mostly from suggestions from this thread) but nothing definitive yet. maybe another week or two of water changes will make things better.

is teflon tape ok to use on all my threaded fittings?


----------



## SueNH

Figure it out yet? I'm kind of having the same problem only I've got no electric items except for a new heater in the water.

My tank is really old. I've had it 15 years and I bought it used. Never used anything odd for chemicals in there. It's been a planted tank for 6 years now. Shrimp and snails just die after a few days.

The bottom is eco-complete with a bag of dark gravel to stretch it. The wood in there is from a pet shop and is old, old, old. I think I've had the one piece for over 10 years. I periodically take it out and dry it and it goes in storage as I rearrange things. Boil it before I put it back. My water is a dug well in my basement. No chlorine or weird chemicals. Tastes like expensive bottled water. Isn't the water anyway because I do have a big 2 gallon jar in a window with java moss and a few pond snails. They have been happy for several years.

I do have to wonder...the man I bought this tank from was a next door neighbor. I used to watch him dump all kinds of pesticides on his garden and lawn. I'm wondering if he did the same with the tank. Could it still be leaching copper or something after 15 years of clean water? Just the tank was his. I've changed or wore out everything else. There is some blue staining to the silicone seals. Methylene blue would be pretty inert after all this time.

The rock in there is a flat peice of what the locals call decomposed granite. Breaks into flat slabs very easily. I pulled it out of an old collapsed culvert on my farm. It's had clean running water moving over it for 100 years easily, maybe more. The drainage ditch is colonial. Unlikely to be leaching anything.
No exotic fish in there, guppies and a few endlers, ottos and cories. They have no problems.

I'm stumped. 

I've stripped it again. Anybody have some guinea pig MTS for me to try? I set up a little 10 gallon I had in the attic. I've been the only owner. So I know it has no icky things to leach. I figured if I put half a group of snails in the 10 gallon and half in the big one I might figure this thing out. Not enough snails in my jar because I rarely feed them. On their own.


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## jpmtotoro

unfortunately, no. it appears it has not been solved. things are BETTER... my fish are much more active with all the positive changes i've made. shrimp last longer... but still not long enough. i removed my 2 suspected pieces of wood and all the decorative rocks for a few weeks with no luck. i was hoping things would calm down after i yanked so many things out, but that doesn't appear to be the case. i'm really out of ideas right now.  for you... doing the other tank is a good idea. SOMETHING in both of our tanks is deadly, and i just can't pin-point it.

bummer


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## SueNH

I just thought of something...

I kind of gave up on the snails and shrimp for the past year because I didn't want to keep killing the things needlessly. 
During that time we had an odd electrical short in the house. It actually took weeks for my husband to believe my daughter and I when we told him we were getting mild shocks touching the washing machine. He checked the electric sockets in the bathroom where the washing machine is located. Nothing. He never got shocked because he always wears big clomping boots. The shocks we were getting got worse. Wasn't until we threw a fit did he start checking every socket in the house. In the living room where my tank is was a socket with a severe short. It's a wonder the place didn't burn down. He disconnected that and no shocks from the washing machine. Replaced and working fine now. Odd we werent getting shocks in other places. Just the washing machine.

No little snails to be had locally. So I had to purchase a mystery snail. She seems fine cruising around the tank. Napping now but she ate heavy all day yesterday. (local pet shop is not one for feeding them). If she starts to get too lethargic I will put her in the 10 gallon. It's a big white one so I can spot her easily enough and keep an eye on things.

I kind of shiver thinking about it....Up to my armpits in water next to an electrical short. Why I didn't get knocked flat I'll never know. The wires where actually blackened inside the box.

Bet that was my problem.
Try testing all your lines and circuits in the house. That short was even on a different circuit breaker. Never flipped a breaker. Never got a shock anywhere but the washing machine. I even have a few old 1950's style metal cabinets still in use in the house. No zaps from them so it wasn't the metal body of the washer. It will be a mystery that I hope never repeats.

She's back in motion after a nap. Must be something tasty in the clump of riccia that floated up to the corner.


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## jpmtotoro

i'm kind of thinking the electrical isn't my issue right now. i've done as many experiments as i possible could. however, it would be interesting to see how awful the electrical really was in my apartment. i could run some tests... but my issue seemed to be more related to something in my water (i think). i may set up another experiment soon, actually.

as for your large mystery snail... the only thing i can say about MY snails was that they are all fine... except MTS. i have random hitch-hiking snails that are slowly populating my tank and breeding and cruising all over the place. but if i put MTS in there, they don't make it. they showed signs of stress instantly. they seem to be even more sensitive than any shrimp i've tried.

i wanted an army of MTS churning my gravel and a colony of RCS! is this too much to ask for? *sob*


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## Tex Gal

Sounds like you are leaving no stone unturned. You are bound to turn up something soon. I have read that if copper was used the residual lasts for a long long time. When I saw the pxs of your rocks and saw the blue my first thought was copper. Maybe that's why they are living a little while longer. You are diluting the pollute with your water changes. I wonder how you can detox a coppered tank. 

I am grateful about you're electrical tests. It's made me decide to put GFI plugs where I have the fish tanks. It's just not worth the risk.


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## criminalhate

jpmtotoro said:


> update:
> 
> after I got ticked off at the brass and DIY spraybar and ripped 'em out of my tank and did another small water change.


I know this is a little late but Brass fittings and tubing (if it's the cheap stuff) Usually has a high percentage of lead in it you may want to test the water for lead and see how that stands


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## jpmtotoro

well i gave up for a long period of time, but then i got frustrated again because i wanted shrimp.

well... appears i may have actually found the culprit this time... for all those people that say they over-fertilize... let me just say that there IS such a thing as too much Flourish.

figured it out when my ferts got dosed and some ghost shrimp sitting in a net went crazy a minute later. a few hours later, i added ferts one by one to see if there was a reaction, and the flourish conjured up the only reactions from them. changed my dosing schedule and timing and they seem to be much happier now. snails are cruising around, bunch of shrimp cruising around... 

i kinda feel like an idiot and i'm embarrassed to post my findings, but i hope this giant nasty thread helps out a few people (considering how many issues were covered, like ferts, stray voltage, co2, metal poisoning, etc).


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## Weq

I just read the whole thread, good read.

I was going to suggest one thing, and that is taking your water samples with the aid of a syringe and air hose. Or siphoning out water from just above the substrate layer with small air hose to see the readings there. I use that test in my tank because my water flow isnt that great, and i could be loosing shrimp in certain parts of the tank too.. Its wierd, but i siphon the water out and u can smell how bad it is!


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## giypsy

This indeed was an interesting read. I waded through because I have
had both MTS disappearance and ghost shrimp deaths at different
times, in different tanks. In the planted with Flourite sub,
my initial seed of 50-ish MTS all but vanished a while back.
I was using Flourish tabs and stopped, not making a connection
to MTS but as a precaution for the shrimp. I blamed the disappearances
on a hunting Betta and she is responsible for some snail-snacking.
My MTS population is s-l-o-w-l-y recovering.

So I thank you for continuing to post as I was about to
start using Flourish tabs again; now I will not.
In my experience, Flourite is a good sub, Flourish tabs
have caused problems in my specific set-up, Prime solved
some of my water change problems.
Keep us posted.


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## jpmtotoro

going on about 2 weeks now and everything still looks good (MTS + inverts). i'm gonna wait another week before getting in a new batch of CRS... but everything looks good.

having dead zones in your water column is an interesting idea... i have plenty of water flow so that wasn't an issue.

i have used flourite and onyx exclusively for the past 8 years maybe? no problems. i've never tried flourish tabs either, but it is worth checking out.

the over-ferting makes sense in my case too, since daily water changes helped keep things alive a bit longer... but as soon as i stopped for 3 days, stuff died.

VERY interesting that shrimp couldn't survive and MTS couldn't survive, but the fish were fine and so were the pond snails (all 3 billion of them).

good luck to anyone else out there that has trouble keeping inverts alive!!!! learn from my mistakes!!!


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