# Sticky  PAR data collection



## Michael

This thread is a place for members who use the PAR meter to record their results, and compare to others information. I suggest you use the "quote" option to copy this form into your post and then fill in the blanks.

*PAR DATA COLLECTION
10 October 2011*

Please fill out this form as completely as possible. Use a new form for each aquarium. You can also submit the information on the DFWAPC forum on Aquatic Plant Central and it will be immediately available for everyone.

*Aquarium size:* 
(gallons and dimensions)

*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* 
(power compact, T5 NO, metal halide, mirror polish reflector, white paint, mylar, etc.)

*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 
(examples: "2 T5 HO tubes, 24 w" or "1 metal halide 150 w")

*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:*

*Other information:* 
(brand, color temperature, spectrum, etc.)

*Distance from light fixture to substrate:*

*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* 
(Tip: you may want to measure PAR in several different locations. You can report multiple measurements, or calculate an average.)

*Comments:* (Are there other conditions affecting light levels? What types of plants do you grow? Was the meter easy to use? Were you surprised by the results?)

*Thank You!*


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## Michael

I will start with surprising data from one of my tanks.



Michael said:


> *PAR DATA COLLECTION
> 10 October 2011*
> 
> Please fill out this form as completely as possible. Use a new form for each aquarium. You can also submit the information on the DFWAPC forum on Aquatic Plant Central and it will be immediately available for everyone.
> 
> *Aquarium size* standard 10 gallon, 20" x 10" x 12" tall
> (gallons and dimensions)
> 
> *Type of light fixture* Cheap office desk lamp with screw-in spiral compact fluorescent
> (power compact, T5 NO, metal halide, etc.)
> 
> *Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage* 1 spiral CF, 26 w (bought it at Walmart)
> (examples: "2 T5 HO tubes, 24 w" or "1 metal halide 150 w")
> 
> *Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes* 6 weeks
> 
> *Other information* GE, 6500 K
> (brand, color temperature, spectrum, etc.)
> 
> *Distance from light fixture to substrate* 13"
> 
> *PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* 60!
> (Tip: you may want to measure PAR in several different locations. You can report multiple measurements, or calculate an average.)
> 
> *Comments* (Are there other conditions affecting light levels? What types of plants do you grow? Was the meter easy to use? Were you surprised by the results?)
> 
> This is higher PAR than any of my other tanks, with compact fluorescents and T5 NO lighting! The plants are a solid carpet of pigmy chain sword and miscellaneous easy species, with some floating plants.
> 
> *Thank You!*


See, that was easy!


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## Michael

I have added a request for information about the reflector. This makes a huge difference, and I forgot it in the first version.

Thanks!


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## Virc003

Michael said:


> *PAR DATA COLLECTION
> 10 October 2011*
> 
> Please fill out this form as completely as possible. Use a new form for each aquarium. You can also submit the information on the DFWAPC forum on Aquatic Plant Central and it will be immediately available for everyone.
> 
> *Aquarium size* standard 10 gallon, 20" x 10" x 12" tall
> (gallons and dimensions)
> 
> *Type of light fixture AND reflector* OLD hand me down T8 fixture w/ no reflector
> (power compact, T5 NO, metal halide, mirror polish reflector, white paint, mylar, etc.)
> 
> *Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage* 1 x 15 Watt 18" T8 Phillips grow light
> (examples: "2 T5 HO tubes, 24 w" or "1 metal halide 150 w")
> 
> *Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes* ~1 month
> 
> *Other information* 6500 K
> (brand, color temperature, spectrum, etc.)
> 
> *Distance from light fixture to substrate* 13"
> 
> *PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* 3 - see comments. Just under the surface of the water I measured 101.
> (Tip: you may want to measure PAR in several different locations. You can report multiple measurements, or calculate an average.)
> 
> *Comments* I have a lot of floating plants.
> (Are there other conditions affecting light levels? What types of plants do you grow? Was the meter easy to use? Were you surprised by the results?)
> 
> *Thank You!*


..


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## Virc003

*PAR DATA COLLECTION
10 October 2011*

Please fill out this form as completely as possible. Use a new form for each aquarium. You can also submit the information on the DFWAPC forum on Aquatic Plant Central and it will be immediately available for everyone.

*Aquarium size* 15 gallon Long, 24" x 12" x 12" tall
(gallons and dimensions)

*Type of light fixture AND reflector* Cheap clip on desk lamp with white paint as reflector
(power compact, T5 NO, metal halide, mirror polish reflector, white paint, mylar, etc.)

*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage* 1 x 26 Watt spiral CFL
(examples: "2 T5 HO tubes, 24 w" or "1 metal halide 150 w")

*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes* ~1 month

*Other information* GE, 6500 K 
(brand, color temperature, spectrum, etc.)

*Distance from light fixture to substrate* 20" (8" above waterline)

*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* at substrate 14; just under water 49
(Tip: you may want to measure PAR in several different locations. You can report multiple measurements, or calculate an average.)

*Comments* This tank is a rimless with a vine growing from the hob across the back of the tank, so I have the fixture tilted to put light on the tank and vine. Less than optimum par values are expected at the substrate.
(Are there other conditions affecting light levels? What types of plants do you grow? Was the meter easy to use? Were you surprised by the results?)

*Thank You!*
..


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## Virc003

*PAR DATA COLLECTION
10 October 2011*

Please fill out this form as completely as possible. Use a new form for each aquarium. You can also submit the information on the DFWAPC forum on Aquatic Plant Central and it will be immediately available for everyone.

*Aquarium size* 40 gallon, 36" x 15" x 16" tall
(gallons and dimensions)

*Type of light fixture AND reflector* 1 x 36" T5 NO dual bulb with original reflector (mirror polish)
1 x 24" T5 NO dual bulb with original reflector (mirror polish) 
(power compact, T5 NO, metal halide, mirror polish reflector, white paint, mylar, etc.)

*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage* 1 x 36" 10,000K 21 Watts
1 x 36" 6,700K 21 Watts
1 x 24" 10,000K 14 Watts
1 x 24" 6,700K 14 Watts
(examples: "2 T5 HO tubes, 24 w" or "1 metal halide 150 w")

*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes* Average ~ 1 month except the 24" 10,000K which might be 3 years old

*Other information* 
(brand, color temperature, spectrum, etc.)

*Distance from light fixture to substrate* 13"

*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* I am having trouble keeping any color except green in my tank, so my testing focused on how much light my glass top filters out.

@ substrate
Measurements with both fixtures: w/ glass 83, w/o glass 97
Measurements with only 36" lamp: w/ glass 48, w/o glass 54
Measurements with only 24" lamp: w/ glass 42, w/o glass 44

@ top (~ 1-2" below water line)
Measurements with both fixtures: w/ glass 365, w/o glass *
Measurements with only 36" lamp: w/ glass 281, w/o glass 303
Measurements with only 24" lamp: w/ glass 240, w/o glass 247

As you can see there isn't too much of a difference with or without the glass.

(Tip: you may want to measure PAR in several different locations. You can report multiple measurements, or calculate an average.)

*Comments* lights were arranged for optimum par values. Background of tank is overgrown and would skew results. 
(Are there other conditions affecting light levels? What types of plants do you grow? Was the meter easy to use? Were you surprised by the results?)

*Thank You!*

*at 1-2" below the surface, there was not enough room for both lights to illuminate the same area. Most of the light from each lamp, because of the reflectors, is aimed straight down and I was unable to aim both at the sensor simultaneously.

I, also, just for fun measured, in roughly 2-3" increments, the par value from the substrate to the surface without the glass top using only the 36" fiture. These values are listed below.

Just under surface of water: 255 
183
118
75
56
@ substrate: 52
directly under the light without any water: 609

Furthermore, for further reference to real sunlight: at 3:00 pm this afternoon I measured the sun in open air, and the meter showed about 2,000! A few inches below the water's surface in my pond values were still as high as 1,000.

Something else to add, I noticed something interesting involving the front glass of the tank. It seemed as though the glass would
reflect light back into the tank. Meaning I measured higher par values as I moved the sensor closer to the glass. If someone would confirm this, I would appreciate it. I'm not entirely sure my reflector aims straight down, so it might have something to do with this as well.


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## Michael

Here is another tank at the low end of the light range. This time I used the "cut and paste" commands to copy the form, and deleted some redundant stuff.

*PAR DATA COLLECTION*

*Aquarium size:* 20 tall, 24" x 12" x 16"

*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* power compact, flimsy mylar reflector

*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 1 power compact, 65w

*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 3 months

*Other information: * Coralife fixture and tube, 10,000K

*Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 20"

*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* 16

*Comments:* There is a very thick background of vallisneria which blocks some light. Using the old watts per gallon rule, this is high light (3.25 wpg!). Now I know why nothing will grow on the bottom of this tank except moss.


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## Michael

Some more outdoor pond measurements, taken last month at about noon:

Just above the surface--1,700
12" below the surface--1,200
24" below the surface--800

I think we may need to change our definition of "high light".

BTW, thanks to Virc003 for posting all his information. He is a new member, and only lives 3 blocks from me, so he borrowed the meter this afternoon.


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## Virc003

I forgot to add too that I checked an actinic bulb on my 40 just for kicks (so 13" to substrate). With the 36" fixture and the 10,000K bulb and an actinic bulb, I got a 36 on the par meter at the substrate.


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## brokefoot

Virc003 said:


> *
> Something else to add, I noticed something interesting involving the front glass of the tank. It seemed as though the glass would
> reflect light back into the tank. Meaning I measured higher par values as I moved the sensor closer to the glass. If someone would confirm this, I would appreciate it. I'm not entirely sure my reflector aims straight down, so it might have something to do with this as well.


I have been doing a lot of reading on PAR measurements lately and have seen more than one person make the same observation.

For the sake of consistency people should probably try to take readings close to the center of the tank away from the glass.


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## brokefoot

Virc003 & Michael,

Were your spiral CF's mounted horizontally or vertically?


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## brokefoot

Michael said:


> Here is another tank at the low end of the light range. This time I used the "cut and paste" commands to copy the form, and deleted some redundant stuff.
> 
> *PAR DATA COLLECTION*
> 
> *Aquarium size:* 20 tall, 24" x 12" x 16"
> 
> *Type of light fixture AND reflector:* power compact, flimsy mylar reflector
> 
> *Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 1 power compact, 65w
> 
> *Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 3 months
> 
> *Other information: * Coralife fixture and tube, 10,000K
> 
> *Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 20"
> 
> *PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* 16
> 
> *Comments:* There is a very thick background of vallisneria which blocks some light. Using the old watts per gallon rule, this is high light (3.25 wpg!). Now I know why nothing will grow on the bottom of this tank except moss.


Is this a 4' bulb hanging 1' over both ends of the tank?


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## Virc003

brokefoot said:


> Virc003 & Michael,
> 
> Were your spiral CF's mounted horizontally or vertically?


Both of our spiral CF's are mounted vertically.

Here is the fixture I use. 
http://www.officemax.com/office-furniture/lighting/desk-and-floor-lamps/product-prod3300097


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## Michael

brokefoot said:


> Is this a 4' bulb hanging 1' over both ends of the tank?


No, it is a 24" fixture.


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## niko

So an outdoor pond's PAR value is 800 at the substrate (at 2' water depth). How can I have a tank that is so brightly lit at the substrate? How much light do I need? Can I keep it clean and algae-free?

Let's look at Michael's 40 gallon tank (36" x 15" x 16" tall). It's not 2' tall but it is about 3/4 of that. So I will need a PAR reading of 600 to simulate an outdoor pond's 800 PAR hitting the bottom.

And here are the (amusing) numbers:

Michael's tank with 2 light fixtures on top (70 watts of light) receives 97 PAR:
_"@ substrate: Measurements with both fixtures: w/ glass 83, w/o glass 97"_

So 70 watts = 97 PAR at the substrate.
=> To get 600 PAR to the substrate we will need 6.2 times the light he has now.
6.2 x 70 watts = 433 watts!

No fluoresent bulbs can be crammed on top of a 40 gallon tank to add up 433 watts of light. There isn't enough room. You will need a 400 watt Metal Halide. Now imagine - a 16" tall tank with a huge, hot, 400 watt Metal Halide on top. Right... You are better off just placing the tank outside, under the open sun.

And here's my usual attack at popular half-baked approaches; I want to see a 40 galon tank with 433 watts of light use EI or PPS. In other words - "How do EI and PPS relate to Nature?". Since they are such great and so popular approaches they should let you take care of such a Natural tank, right? Of course not. Needless to say there will be ultra-fast plant growth (4" a day not uncommon with stems), deficiencies developing overnight, and insane work to keep up with this speed demon of a tank in some resemblance of a balance.

Or... You can emulate the outdoor pond:
*1. Rich substrate
2. Good flow
3. Water void of nutrients*

Game over. If you care to think, that is.

Funny thing, if you go on one of Australian planted tank forums and look for the pictures of the guy that has an outdoor aquarium plant growing facility you will see exactly that: Sun blasting the super clear water, good flow, and tons of super healthy plants... Ah yes, almost forgot - and MUD on the bottom. That's it. How novel.

--Nikolay


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## Michael

Niko, quick correction--the 40 gallon you describe belongs to Virc003, not me. I've been making a few minor changes to my 40, and will post PAR results soon.

I hope everyone is as excited about the club owning a PAR meter as I am. For the first time, we can actually measure light levels, instead of guessing based on wattage, charts, traditional advice, etc. We are all in for some big surprises, and will learn some big lessons.

To Niko's observations on natural light in a pond vs. artificial light in aquaria, I will add another surprise. I've posted PAR info for my 10 gallon--the one that has 60 PAR with just a cheap spiral CF. As an experiment, I put that same fixture on my 40 gallon. Now this tank normally has a dual tube T5 NO Coralife fixture (the brand I love to hate) on it, and it gives about 30-35 PAR at the substrate.

The cheap desk light with the cheap SCF in it gave 60 PAR in the 40 gallon too! So why are we paying $100s for special aquarium fixtures when we can get twice the light for $10 worth of stuff from the hardware store?


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## niko

Because in this hobby it's a habit to not ask simple questions and go with the flow.

I see that Luis Navarro will be coming to speak on one of the club's meetings. He used to have a 30 gallon cube tank with a 250 watt Metal Halide on top. It would be interesting to hear how he maintained that tank.

--Nikolay


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## fishyjoe24

just tested my tank. 

par data collection, 10/23/2011.

aquarium size 45 cube (24x18x24)... oceanic.

type of light fixture zoo med 2 bulb t5 h.o.(high output). square reflector both bulbs use the same reflector.

number of bulbs 2 t5 h.o. 24w each bulb so 48w total 

age of bulbs 4-5 months old.

other info.
one is a gisemann midday (6,000k) the other is a coralife colormax.

distance from light fixture to substrate is 22 inches. my light fixtures is 2 inches from the top of the tank using the legs that came with it. 

the surface par when the sensor being right in the water gave a reading of 71. 
at the substrate... the sensor gave me a reading of 22.

comments. I bought the zoomed hoping to have medium light on this tank. it turns out that I only have low light which isn't to bad. the fixture was bought new for 65.00 so it was money well spent.

plants i'm growing are misc- cryptocornye(crypts). , misc anubias, java fern, and some type of hyprophill. the meter was easy to use it reminds me of a engine diagnostics reader. i'm wanting to go to medium- high light. so i have a 4 bulb t5 h.o. light fixture and going to see what the reading are with that.


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## fishyjoe24

just did another test on my tank.

par data collection, 10/24/2011.

aquarium size 45 cube (24x18x24)... oceanic.

type of light fixture current sundial 4 bulb t5 h.o.(high output). cured single reflector all bulbs use the same reflector.

number of bulbs 4 t5 h.o. 24w each bulb so 96w total 

age of bulbs 4-5 months old on 2 of them, and 2 new bulbs just bought yesterday and put in this morning.

other info.
one is a gisemann midday (6,000k) one a coralife colormax(purpleish/pinkish bulb), and the other 2 are new coralife 6,700k.

distance from light fixture to substrate is 22 inches. my light fixtures is on the top of the tank,can't find the legs that came with it. 

the surface par using one new coral life 6,700k and the 4-5 month old color max, when the sensor being right in the water gave a reading of 108. 
at the substrate... the sensor gave me a reading of 15.

using the other new coral life 6,700k and gisemann 6,000k at the surface was 107, and soil was 20.

now for the kicker and surprize. all 4 bulbs on. (2 new coral life 6,700k, a 4-5 month old coral life colormax, and a 4-5 month old gisemann 6,000k) - surface was bouncing with numbers from 265- 326 then slow down and gave a 312 reading. at the soil it gave a reading of 53. 


comments. I bought the current fixture to put over my saltwater tank, but don't need much light, so i have now switch the fixtures around. the zoo med is on the salt, and the current is on the planted.

plants i'm growing are misc- cryptocornye(crypts). , misc anubias, java fern, and some type of hyprophill. the meter was easy to use it reminds me of a engine diagnostics reader. after the reading, i will be switching the plants out and wanting to trade them for stem plants, and harder to grow fore ground plants.


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## foreverknight

Ok everyone in the following posts i will give you the readings of 5 of my tanks. it turns out on most of the tanks I am growing nothing more than low light plants but as you will see with the results are really intresting. the last tank in the list will be my 75g and it pearls after the lights have been on for 2 hours and those of you that know i seem to be able to grow almost anything in it which is why i was so suprised with the par readings. Well here it goes


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## foreverknight

Aquarium size: 

Aqua H2O AQ-31 12 1/4"x6 5/8"x8"

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 

Your Zone Bright On LED Desklamp from walmart

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 

single 2.4watt LED with the packageing it came with.

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 

About one month

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 

lamp is 13" from the substrate and 7" from the waters surface.

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 

Surface Par 42
Mid Tank Par 22
Substrate Par 16


Comments: 

As for comments here is the rest of the tank specs and everything in the tank is growing fine with no problems. I was also suprised with how bright the tank appeared how low the actual par reading was.

Flora: 

Anubius Barteri "petite"
Vesicularia Ferriei
Staurogyne sp. Repens

Fauna: 

1x Melanoides tuberculata
3x Planorbis rubrum
multiple Heterandria formosa

Filtration: 

Piccotype HOB Standard floss large and fine no carbon.

Substrate: 

SMS

If anyone has any questions about this tank just let me know.


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## foreverknight

Aquarium size: 

Standard 10g 20"x10 1/4"x12 1/2"

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 

Standard black plastic 10g incandecent hood with aluminum foil glued into the full underside of the hood

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 

2 bulbs 10watt each U tubes from walmart pets section.

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 

About a year old

Other information: 

Color temp is 6,500k

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 

1 1/4" from water surface
12 1/4" from substrate

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 

Surface Par 60
Mid Tank Par 50
Substrate Par 30


Comments: 

As for comments on this tank there really isn't any it has been running this way for about a year now and have not had any problems with it algae has been minimum and haven't had any problems.

Flora:

Java moss at mid tank level
Java Fern (narro Leaf) also at mid tank level

Fauna:

Cherry shrimp
Ramshorn snails
MTS

Filtration: 

AC 20 with the elite sponge over the intake tube.

Substrate:

Black Diamond Sandblasting Medium 30-60 grit

Any more questions on this tank again just let me know.


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## digital_gods

I'm testing and posting up the Par results over this weekend. I'll be dropping off the meter with Tex Gal.


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## Michael

Thanks Robert.


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## digital_gods

Data collected. I'll drop every off Tuesday evening. I've added to the kit a pocket tape measure, small screwdriver and a 24" dip stick to hold the probe for measuring.









Results will be posted soon.


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## Zapins

If I join your club from CA can I borrow the PAR meter too? Haha 

Drooling over the results, keep it up!!


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## Michael

Robert, thanks again! Those are great additions to the kit.

As I understand, Tex Gal is next in line for the meter, then she will bring it to the holiday party on the 18th. Maybe Mike and Shane will let us dip the probe into their tanks, which are equiped with variety of lighting types.

I need to write up more of my own results, but I'm waiting for a new camera so that I can post photos of the set-ups. Soon, I promise.

As some may notice, we already changed our borrowing procedures a little. It was inconvenient for members in the far western parts of DFW to return the meter to me between each use, so it has been rotating among them since the last meeting.

Zapins, California might be a little far, but if you pay shipping. . . Seriously, I think the meter has been a great investment for our club, and has given some really surprising results.


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## digital_gods

*PAR DATA COLLECTION​*








*Aquarium size:* 90 Gallon - 48 1/2 x 18 1/2 x 25 3/8
*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* Orbit PC Fixture
*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 4x96w
*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 2 - 1+ years, 2 - unknown but brighter
*Other information:* CurrentUSA 10,000K/6,700K bulbs
*Distance from light fixture to surface:* 4.5"
*Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 23.5"
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE:**412*
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:**64*









*Aquarium size:* 35 gallon Hexagon - 23 1/4 x 20 3/16 x 24 3/4
*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* Coralife PC Quad Compact Retrofit
*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 1x96w 
*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 6 months
*Other information:* Coralife 50%(10,000K)/50%(Actinic)
*Distance from light fixture to surface:* 1.25"
*Distance from light fixture to substrate: *21.5"
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE:**211*
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:**19*









*Aquarium size:* 10 gallon - 20 1/4 x 10 1/2 x 12 9/16
*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* Hood with double ended incandescent fixture
*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 2x26w Spiral CFL
*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 1 year
*Other information:* 6500K Generic Bulbs, horizontal position
*Distance from light fixture to surface:* 2.5"
*Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 11"
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE:**233*
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE*:*45*









*Aquarium size: 22 gallon* - 18"x24"x18"
*Type of light fixture AND reflector*: Zilla Incandescent Dual Bulb Reptile Fixture, white paint inside
*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 2x26w Spiral CFL
*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: *1 year
*Other information:*6500K Generic Bulbs, horizontal position
*Distance from light fixture to surface:* 15"
*Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 27.5"
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE:**300*
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:**16*









*Aquarium size:* 29 Gallon - 30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 18 3/4
*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* All Glass 18" T-8 
*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 1x18w
*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 1 year
*Other information:* GE Aqua Rays Freshwater 4,400K
*Distance from light fixture to surface:* 5.5"
*Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 27.5"
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE:**53*
*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:**11*

*Comments:* 
Are there other conditions affecting light levels? The water in my 10 gallon gets very yellow at times caused by Tanin. I'm trying to raise CRS and so it's a delicate balance to keep enough acidic and soft yet clear enough for not to filter out the light.

What types of plants do you grow? I have plants in all my tanks including goldfish and marine tank. I grow whatever will grow in my tank.

Was the meter easy to use? The meter was very easy to use. I liked how it logged the samples for later to review.

Were you surprised by the results? Yes. I know the tannin in the water filter the light but I was shocked to see how much light I am really loosing .In my 35 gallon Hex tank, I was surprised how close of PAR value was to the 29 gallon tank. This makes me question the value of actinic in a marine tank.


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## Michael

Great post, Robert! It is really nice to see photos of the set-ups along with the information.

One question, are your spiral CFLs mounted horizontally or vertically? This apparently makes a big difference.


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## fishyjoe24

also on the antic's, note you are using power compacts, and not t5 h.o. from what I read t5 h.o. will give a lot more par, then power compacts.... I would also like to see what MH's will do.

I should of measured my saltwater tank too.

also robert, what zoas/poly's are by the blue green chromis is in the reef tank... if you ever frag some of those i would like to get a frag thanks...


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## digital_gods

I see the photos are a bit blurry but they are simple camera phone photos for quick reference.

@Micheal: I got the bulb position updated.

@Joey: I have for you some frags and macro algae (saltwater plants) that I'll bring to the Christmas Party. This is what my 50/50 power compact quad bulb looks like. It has a small foot print of 18".


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## digital_gods

Is it too late to ask Santa for a AM-310 Sensor Wand for DFWAPC?


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## fishyjoe24

digital_gods said:


> Is it too late to ask Santa for a AM-310 Sensor Wand for DFWAPC?


[smilie=n::-k , yes edrinda, and michael. can we get this,

oh and you forgot age, nevermind I see it now.(age of bulbs).


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## Storms

Has anyone measured a Fluval Edge with the MR16 LEDs, or a Fluval Spec with the stock LEDs?

Great results! Keep posting them.


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## Michael

No! Have you got one? We would love to see some results from LED fixtures.


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## Storms

I might end up getting one, but probably not until next year. They are pretty expensive when you consider you could buy a nice ADA 75P for the same price...


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## fishyspots

Anyone know how the list stands for the PAR meter? I would love to get it for a week to test my tanks. Have been setting up some new ones and knowing the actual light I have to work with would be helpful in making plant choices. There is two of us in this neighborhood that could share it and can get it back down to the Metroplex easily in the next few weeks.


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## Tex Gal

Going to alexopolus aka Alex on 27th.


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## BenChod

Could you put me down on the list. I would also like to test the lighting on my tank.

Thanks,
Ben


----------



## alexopolus

Finally! I will have time to use par meter!!! Happy new Years every one!!! 
Michael I will drop it at your house on Tuesday/Wednesday!?


----------



## Michael

Alex, that will be fine. Just call or PM to let me know when. I have an appointment from 2-4 Tuesday afternoon, but am free otherwise. Give me enough lead time to catch some shrimp for you.

Next up for the PAR meter is fishyspots, then Ben. Fishy, please confirm that you still want the meter, and tell me where you live.

Thanks,
Michael


----------



## fishyspots

Yes, I would like to use it. I live clear up by Whitesboro so would be great if I could get it when it was in the north part of the Metro, around DNA or for pick up or drop off at an APC meeting. Just let me know!


----------



## Michael

The PAR meter has returned to east Dallas, ready for the next user.

Most of you have heard my rant on the high price and low quality of T5 tubes sold for aquarium use. In particular, I scorn the T5 NO tubes sold by Coralife--they are expensive, and rarely last longer than 6 months for me.

After the last set of Coralife tubes over my 40 gallon died, I decided to replace them with Phillips 4100K from Home Depot. Yes, the light is yellow, and not as attractive as the light from the 6700K Coralife tubes.

BUT! The Coralife 6700K tubes gave me 30-35 umol of PAR at the substrate. The Phillips tubes give 50 umol of PAR, and cost less than half the price of the Coralife!

*Aquarists, throw off your chains! Effective lighting for planted tanks can be cheap and easy!*


----------



## fishyspots

So glad to hear I'm not the only one that HATES Coralife! I've had bulbs in both my fixtures go out in less than 6 mos and had issues with both of the actual fixtures as well. I'll definitely check out the Home Depot bulbs. Thanks!


----------



## Michael

Absolutely, don't get me started! Their fixtures are garbage too.


----------



## fishyspots

Yeah, have found that out the hard way  My friend and I each bought multiples of them and have had problems with all but one of them or they've totally gone out in less than 6 months.


----------



## Zapins

I agree, coralife is crap. The ballasts are bad, and the reflectors are terrible. Better to use a t8 shop light.


----------



## DaTrueDave

Michael said:


> ...I decided to replace them with Phillips 4100K from Home Depot. Yes, the light is yellow, and not as attractive as the light from the 6700K Coralife tubes.


My Home Depot has 54W 5000K (if I remember correctly) T5HO tubes for under ten bucks a pop. I checked both Home Depot and Lowes for T5HO bulbs before I purchased a retrofit kit from AHSupply. I ended up buying bulbs from AHSupply also, but plan on using Home Depot for at least half of my replacement bulbs from now on...


----------



## Michael

Our well traveled PAR meter is in Whitesboro for use by Fishyspots and friends. I believe Ben is next in line.

Depending on the date and location of the January meeting, we can arrange to pass the meter on then.

I am really happy to see the meter getting so much use!


----------



## fishyspots

Thank you so much for your tour, advice and the endler fry today! We so enjoyed our visit and can't wait to get readings done on the tanks!! I'll post results as soon as I can get everything organized.


----------



## Zapins

I have been enjoying all the data you guys are pulling in with the PAR meter! Keep it up!

I think we need to get one for the CT plant club.


----------



## Michael

Thanks! However, I do know that some of our members have measured their tanks and have not posted the results, some of which were surprising.

Come on everybody, let's see those numbers!


----------



## digital_gods

Michael said:


> *Aquarists, throw off your chains! Effective lighting for planted tanks can be cheap and easy!*


I like to use SYLVANIA DULUX EL Mini Twist 23w 6500K in my 10 gallon tanks. I get them from Lowes. Even thou they are horizontal position with a lot of re-strike, I still get high light for the tank. I believe I paid around $13 for a 2 pack.


----------



## BenChod

I was on another forum and one member said the par light reading will be the same if you measure in water versus with out water. Basically you can test the par reading in filled tank or empty tank and the reading is the same. Can anyone verify this, if so then we can just bring our fixtures to the next meeting to get the reading rather then waiting on the par meter.


----------



## Michael

Sorry, but that is contrary to the laws of physics and patently untrue. If it were true, the bottom of the ocean would be as bright as the surface.


----------



## houseofcards

BenChod said:


> I was on another forum and one member said the par light reading will be the same if you measure in water versus with out water. Basically you can test the par reading in filled tank or empty tank and the reading is the same. Can anyone verify this, if so then we can just bring our fixtures to the next meeting to get the reading rather then waiting on the par meter.


I think this is what your referring to and the logic behind it. Not the forum but the source. Read the 6th paragraph on the right.

I don't really agree with that, because even if there was some truth to it, it doesn't take into account water conditions and any kind of bending based on flow etc, that would take it possibly away from the plants.


----------



## fishyspots

Going to start adding some of my readings. Will start with the small tanks and work my way up 

Aquarium size: 
3 gal Marineland crescent (13x7x9.5)
5 gal Marineland crescent (16x8x12)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
stock LED bar that comes with the tank (same for both sizes)

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
can't find details anywhere but there is 2 rows of 8 LEDs in the fixture

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
all are 3-6 mos old and gave very similar readings

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
9.5" on the 3 gal size
11" on the 5 gal size

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
8 
12-15 at mid column


Comments: I didn't expect much in the way of light in those tanks but reading was even lower than I thought. I've had decent success with low light plants "surviving" in them but not many "thriving".


----------



## fishyspots

Aquarium size: 
standard 10g (20x10x12)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
smaller clamp lamp shop light from Lowes with metal reflector
Desk type clamp lamp from Lowes with white reflector
(both types gave very close readings)

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
CFL 13W 6500k
mounted vertically

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
about 1-2 mos

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
13"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
These were interesting as there was a noticeable difference in lighting throughout the tank. With only one bulb in the center, reading at the substrate would be about 42 in the middle of the tank but only 15-20 in the corners. With two bulbs mounted on the ends, readings in the corners were 30-36 and about 26 in the middle. 

Comments: Just for fun, I pulled out one of the stock hoods like someone else had reviewed and put the same two bulbs in it, mounted horizontally now, and got readings in the upper 20s to mid 30s consistently throughout the tank and honestly thought the overall look was a lot better as no spotlight effect.


----------



## fishyspots

Aquarium size: 
10 gal Marineland half round (17x11x17)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
stock LED fixture that comes with tank

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
no details available but has 3 rows of 8 LEDs 

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
6 mos

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
15"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
4
8 at mid column

Comments: yeah, not much grows in there!


----------



## fishyspots

Aquarium size:
36 bowfront (30x11x21)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
standard fluorescent Aqueon light that comes with tank (because my danged Coralife went out!)

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
single Aqueon 17W 8000K full spectrum daylight bulb

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
3 months

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
17"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
8
20 at mid column

Comments: Definitely going to have to get a new light for this tank ASAP! Suggestions?


----------



## fishyspots

Aquarium size: 
46 bowfront (36x16x21)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
Standard Marineland fluorescent fixture on one tank
Coralife T5 fixture on the other

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
one Marineland Natural Daylight bulb in the standard fixture (couldn't see a wattage)
Coralife 6700k and Colormax bulbs in the Coralife T5 fixture

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
3-4 months on all

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
19" on the standard fixture
17" on the Coralife

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
8 on the standard fixture at substrate, 23 mid column
7 on the Coralife fixture at substrate, 18 mid column

Comments: I found it VERY interesting that the stock fluorescent bulb gave HIGHER readings than the Coralife double bulbs, especially when it sits further from the substrate!! So much for buying the more expensive special plant light fixture


----------



## fishyspots

Aquarium size: 
standard 55 gallon (48x12x21)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
GLO T5HO 48"

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
one Coralife 6700k 54W

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
3 mos

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
19"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
15
45 at mid column

Comments: Another tank that I expected higher readings on......


----------



## fishyspots

Aquarium size: 
90 gallon (48x18x22)

Type of light fixture AND reflector: 
two shoplights with clear plastic splash covers from Home Depot

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 
four Phillips 32W 6500k daylight bulbs from Home Depot

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 
1 month

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 
21"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 
28
60 at mid column

Comments: Does this sound right to everyone? Really expected higher readings with that many watts on top of the tank......


----------



## Michael

Great information!

A question about the Marineland fixture on your bowfront: what size tube is in it? Fluorescent tubes are measured both by length and diameter. A T5 tube is 5/8" in diameter, T8 is 1" (8/8"), T 12 is 1 1/2" (12/8"), etc. Yes, it is the most inane system they could come up with.

On your last tank, this may be a case where the reflectors and splash guards are reducing the light output. Shop lights have notoriously poor reflectors (almost as bad as those mylar things in the Coralife fixtures) and the splash guards may be filtering out some useful light. I agree, the light levels on that tank are disappointing. Could you remove the splash guard and remeasure the PAR?


----------



## fishyspots

The Marineland fixture is a T8. Sorry, forgot to put that in there!
Will get additional readings on the 90g tomorrow as the timer is already off tonight and I'm too lazy to turn it back on.....


----------



## Michael

One other thing I forgot to mention, I did some side by side measurements of Coralife 6700K and Colormax tubes at a display tank I set up at a LFS. The Colormax tubes produce almost no PAR at all--it was almost like the fixture was turned off.

So in your 2 tube T5 fixture, if you replace the Colormax tube with something else, even a generic "daylight" tube from the hardware store, you might double the effective light on that tank.


----------



## fishyspots

I pulled the reflectors off the shoplights today and got higher readings. With reflectors most of them were in the upper 20s/mid 30s and the same spots without the reflectors ran mid 30s/upper 40s. Still lower than I had hoped for but some improved.....


----------



## fishyjoe24

The t5 n.o. Fixtures don't have a reflector it's basiclly 
Gray paper. I've took one apart because the reflectors have gone bad.
The Hagen glo fixture only have decent reflectors.. 
I like highly polished german reflectors and Gisemann mid day bulbs.


----------



## BenChod

Aquarium size:
Standard 75 gallon (48x18x21)

Type of light fixture AND reflector:
Standard 48 inch T8 fixture with 

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:
48" 32 watts GE 6500K from Lowe's....total 64 watts


Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:
2 weeks

Distance from light fixture to substrate:
18"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:
28
40 at mid column
160 at surface

Comments: The reading is direct light as no glass top is used. The reading above was with tannin in the water. I did a 50% water change the the reading improved to 34-38 at substrate and in 50's in the mid column

Also The fixture was modified by use of foil tape to create reflector in the fixture as there were no reflectors.


----------



## BenChod

Aquarium size:
240 gallon (96x24x24)

Type of light fixture AND reflector:
Coralife NO 48 inch T5 fixture 

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:
48" 28 watts 4100k from home depot and 10000K 

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:
2 weeks on 4100K and 1.5 months on 10,000K

Distance from light fixture to substrate:
22 to 23"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:
22 at substrate
26 at 18" from light fixture 
33 at 12" from light fixture 
240 at surface

Comments: The reading is direct light as no glass top is used.The fixture was modified by use of foil tape to create or improve the reflector.


----------



## Michael

Everyone, the PAR meter is back home (thanks, Randall) and ready to be loaned again.


----------



## Michael

Sherwin, send me a PM and we'll arange a time for you to pick up at my home in east Dallas.


----------



## Aquaticz

Hi
Good info, I read the whole thread .
I've a general query
How many umol of PAR would be considered low light, medium light & high light?


----------



## Michael

Good question! From the PAR meter rules:

"*What Do My Results Mean?*
There is no universally accepted interpretation of PAR values for aquaria. Here are two proposed scales for comparison. All values are given in micromoles per square meter per second.

20-40 low light
40-100 medium light
100+ high light
-or-
40-70 low light
70-150 medium light
150-300 high light
300-600 very high light

By reporting your results and comparing them to others, you can help to develop realistic guidelines for light levels in planted tanks."

From the information we've gathered to date, I tend to agree with the first scale. You can definitely grow low-light plants with less than 40 umol.


----------



## fishyjoe24

showing.

tank 30 gallon oceanic cube (20x18x21).

lighting wave point t5 high out put 4 bulb 24x4 (96w) total.
bulbs - age not sure. bulb brand wave point. 2 -10,000k and 2 blue antic.

par at top of water 248-261. stopped at 253.
par at bottom of water -35. 

comments that doesn't seem right, blue is suppost to go deeper and give more lighting..


----------



## mudboots

I'm glad to see this thread; thanks for pointing it out Michael. Those are interesting results fishyjoe. 96 watts over a 30 would seem to me to be very high light; maybe the bulbs are starting to loose their juice, but anyway, I'm just glad to see some results on PAR being posted. It makes me wish I lived a little closer to D/FW...

Thanks,

Darren


----------



## fishyjoe24

tank 30 gallon oceanic cube (20x18x21).

lighting wave point t5 high out put 4 bulb 24x4 (96w) total.
bulbs - coral-life 6,700k 2 are brand new just installed last night, and other 2 are have 3 months use on them. 

par at top of water jumped alot do to flow of water at top. it went from 306 - 529, up and down up and down, then slowed down to 240-406then slow stoped the flow of filter for a second and got 268.(high light) down at middle of tank par was 128-194 and slowed down and stopped at 146.(also most high light, aha lets called high light was 4 way from 150) bottom of tank(substrate level)... 68-106 slowed down and finely gave 94(medium lighting)..

comments hows that for coral-life bulbs michael? ha ha.../ it looks like new bulbs plays a big differences in par valve, and as bulbs get old par valve goes fast... also blue higher specturm isn't what it seems to me.. also tank is still a little cloudy will this make a differences in par reading, will they be more onces the tank clears?


----------



## gr33nthumb

Sweet thread! This certainly helps to gain a better understanding of the mighty, and complex lighting situation for us planted tank folks. Just curious if you guys have any metal halide data? I know it is a far different type of light than traditional fluorescent's, I would simply like a better understanding of my tank and the lighting, without spending a hefty amount on a meter. Keep it up!


----------



## Michael

Glad we could help! We don't have much hetal halide data, but the two units that we have measured gave very high light, 500+ PAR at the surface, and 200+ at substrate. I don't remember the wattage.


----------



## fishyjoe24

if I remember right I believe they where 250w or the 275w if you are talking about the dallas north aquarium planted tank..


----------



## gr33nthumb

Didn't think many planted tank folks used metal halides, but 200-500+ are nice numbers. That gives me a ballpark idea of what I've got, just that much closer to dialing it all in! Thanks guys


----------



## Dejlig

Michael said:


> Good question! From the PAR meter rules:
> 
> "*What Do My Results Mean?*
> There is no universally accepted interpretation of PAR values for aquaria. Here are two proposed scales for comparison. All values are given in micromoles per square meter per second.
> 
> 20-40 low light
> 40-100 medium light
> 100+ high light
> -or-
> 40-70 low light
> 70-150 medium light
> 150-300 high light
> 300-600 very high light
> 
> By reporting your results and comparing them to others, you can help to develop realistic guidelines for light levels in planted tanks."
> 
> From the information we've gathered to date, I tend to agree with the first scale. You can definitely grow low-light plants with less than 40 umol.


Are these numbers at the substrate?


----------



## Michael

Most people take these to mean "at the substrate". But really they apply to any place in the tank where you want to grow plants. As we saw at CrownMan's house yesterday, you can have a very lush planted tank with very low PAR values at the substrate.


----------



## Dejlig

This looked like a good thread on The Planted Tank

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396


----------



## Dejlig

PAR DATA COLLECTION

Aquarium size: 55 gallon, 48" x 13" x 20"

Type of light fixture: Current USA TrueLumen Pro LED Striplights, 2-48" 8,000k, 1-48"10,000k/actinic blue

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 90 total watts, not going to count the LED nodes

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 4 days

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 18" 

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT WATER LEVEL: 201

PAR VALUES AT MIDDLE: 120

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 82

Comments: Less than 2 watts per gallon, but I think you can throw that old adage out when it comes to LEDs. I was going to try to go with 2 strips, but I took a strip away from my discus tank and added here when I saw my PAR was 30 with only 2 strips.


----------



## BriDroid

I'm not using glass tops and I'm using a Toms surface skimmer to keep the surface clean.

PAR DATA COLLECTION
March 31, 2013

Aquarium size: 72 bow front
48"L 12"W on the ends 18"W at the middle and 24"D

Type of light fixture AND reflector: Finnex Ray 2 DS 48" 7000K LEDs

Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 384 LEDs, 39 watts

Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: about 4 months old

Other information: 

Distance from light fixture to substrate: 22"

PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: Directly under fixture, 43 par
6" off from center, 33 par

Comments:
Directly under light
At surface, about 1.5" under light 630 par
6" 200 par
12" 100 par
18" 68 par
22" at substrate 43 par

6" out from the center of the light
At surface 35 par
6" 73 par
12" 77 par
18" 47 par
22" at substrate 33 par


----------



## Michael

Thanks to both of you! These are very interesting results, and show that these particular LED fixtures are viable options for planted tanks.

The very different performance of the fixtures may be due to the different Kelvin ratings. High Kelvin has more blue light and this penetrates to a greater depth more easily. We saw the same kind of difference when we compared a 6700 K metal halide and a 10,000 K metal halide at Dallas North Aquarium. The 10,000 K gave lower PAR at the surface, but higher PAR at the substrate.

How do both of you like the appearance of the light?


----------



## BriDroid

I really like the color of the Finnex LEDs. My wife does too, and that is the most important.

Here is a link to the manufacture's PAR data, taken through air, for this fixture. My results are pretty close to what they advertise.


----------



## Dejlig

So Finnex might be a good way to go for LED, fairly inexpensive and good PAR too.


----------



## BriDroid

Yes, I think I paid $160 something for my 48". 

I'm thinking about getting a clamp lamp with the biggest spiral compact fluorescent daylight bulb I can get. Then I will just put that over one of the back corners and put whatever high light loving plants under it. It won't look the best, but I will be able to grow just about anything then.


----------



## niko

Posting this as a record trying to figure out why my readings seem pretty high.

*Bulbs:*
Satco Hygrade (3500K, 2900 lumens each)
KorallenZucht Fiji Purple
Giesemann Midday 6000K
Giesemann Lagoon Blue

*Bulb placement in the fixture:*
---Satco----
---Midday---
---Lagoon---
---Fiji-----
---Satco----

---*Watts*------*PAR at 18" water depth+1" air*-----*Bulbs*
---24-----------39--------------------------------1x24W Lagoon
---58-----------61--------------------------------2x24W Satco
---58-----------79--------------------------------1x24W Midday + 1x24W Fiji
---72----------118--------------------------------1x24W Midday + 1x24W Lagoon + 1x24W Fiji
---82-----------97--------------------------------2x24W Satco + 1x24W Lagoon
---116---------143--------------------------------2x24W Satco + 1x24W Midday+ 1x24W Fiji
---140---------182--------------------------------2x24W Satco + 1x24W Midday+ 1x24W Fiji + 1x24W Lagoon

*Most natural look:*
All bulbs - beautiful light, like full sun, all colors pop up (reds blues greens)
2x Satco + 1x Lagoon - second best, very natural looking.

*Notes:*
PAR measured only in the center of the tank (tank is a 30 gal. Oceanic cube).
Water column is 18".
Air gap between the water surface and the bulbs - 1".
Bulbs have individual Tek reflectors.
Satco cheapo brand bulbs used to ballance the colors.


----------



## Yo-han

Dejlig said:


> PAR VALUES MEASURED AT WATER LEVEL: 201
> 
> PAR VALUES AT MIDDLE: 120
> 
> PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 82


I notice lots of people having reduced PAR deeper in the tank. I measured my PAR and found almost no difference. Done with a Seneye which compared to the Apogee gave almost the same readings.

Some measurements from my 100G:


----------



## Michael

Yohan, what type of bulbs are you using? We noticed that lights with high Kelvin did not loose PAR as much from top to bottom of the tank. This is presumably because the blue wave lengths are not absorbed as readily by the water, allowing more light to penetrate to the substrate.


----------



## niko

I talked to Hoppy (from whom I got the PAR meter I'm using). So far I think my fixture produces more PAR than any other commercial light. That includes LED.

But there are details about measuring the PAR. The spacing of the bulbs, the tank shape (light reflecting from the glass), the PAR meter sensitivity to wavelengths. That's why I post the primitive diagrams below.

*PAR meter sensitivity:*
From what I understand so far Hoppy's PAR meter (not the same at the club meter) "...under measures the near UV light, and the near IR light, so the violet bulb (Fiji Purple) may produce more PAR than my meter says it does..". It looks like one needs to know how their meter produces the reading. Bulbs with funky spectrum (like the Fiji Purple or the Lagoon Blue) may actually produce more PAR but the meter doesn't see it very well.

*Will the PAR of 2 bulbs be 2 times the PAR of each individual bulb:*
Also he says that the PAR of 2 bulbs is expected to be a little less than the sum of the PARs of the 2 bulbs separately. That is due to spacing if I'm not mistaken. But what I see shows that my fixture just adds up the PAR, no loss due to spacing.

I'd be interested to see the PAR of a single Satco bulb compared to two Satco bulbs. Note that in my fixture they are 16" apart. That should lead to not adding up the PAR for the two bulbs. I will post about that later. For now note that the PARs of all the other bulbs add up very well.

*PAR and reflectors, spacing, and ballasts:*
He says that Tek reflectors are pretty much the best on the market. I use the old style - they are 2" wide (the new ones are 3" wide). That means that the light that hits the bottom of my tank is more directed compared to the new style reflectors. Also the spacing of my bulbs is the tightest possible WITH the best reflectors available. In addition I use Fulham Workhorse ballasts. I understand that many T5HO fixtures have ballasts that underdrive the bulbs. Mine may be driven just right (be as bright as possible without overheating the bulb due to overdriving).

PAR 39:
-----------------
-----------------
=============1x24W Lagoon 
-----------------
-----------------

PAR 61: 
============= 1x24 Satco
-----------------
-----------------
-----------------
-----------------
=============1x24 Satco

PAR 79:
-----------------
=============1x24W Midday 
-----------------
=============1x24W Fiji
-----------------

PAR 143:
=============1x24W Satco 
=============1x24W Midday
-----------------
=============1x24W Fiji
=============1x24W Satco

PAR 182:
=============1x24W Satco 
=============1x24W Midday
=============1x24W Lagoon
=============1x24W Fiji
=============1x24W Satco

PAR 97:
=============1x24W Satco 
-----------------
=============1x24W Lagoon
-----------------
=============1x24W Satco

PAR 118:
----------------- 
=============1x24W Midday
=============1x24W Lagoon
=============1x24W Fiji
-----------------


----------



## niko

Here's a funny experience everyone needs to hear about:

Today I took the PAR meter to a tank that had 4 year old 220W VHO bulbs. Checked the PAR 6 inches from the bulbs - reading was 45. Checked the PAR at 12" - got a reading of 25.

Then I stuck the meter 10 inches under a 40 watt incandescent bulb that was inside a room lamp with a shade. Reading was 25. Who knows how old that bulbs was. 

Basically the 220W of VHO, 10,000K bulbs were so worn that produced as much light as one 40 watt incandescent bulb. That's pretty hard to believe and for some time I thought something was wrong with the PAR meter.

I installed brand new T5HO with Tek reflectors and Fulham Workhorse ballast. Reading 6" under the bulbs was 150.

What I find funny in that is my mentality. I believe it reflects the general mindset of planted tank enthsiasts - to not use common sense. During the last 2 months I had successfully weaned the tank from what amounted to a full blown EI fertilizing, complete with ever present algae. I could not find any other way to keep that tank running without tearing it down (which I could not, the tank is not mine). There were algae present in that tank for years - more or less but always there somewhere. After reducing the ferts substantially and vacuuming diligently 2-3 times only a little BBA on Anubias stayed in the tank. It disappeared when the plants grew well. Funny thing the plants grew better with less ferts! But after a few weeks some plants died off. The others slowed down their growth. BBA returned on the Anubias. I blamed it all on lack of fertilizers. You know - I cleaned the tank and the plants used whatever reserves they had and now they are not growing. That is most of us would think too I believe.

My question is how often do we change our fluorescent bulbs? The petered out VHOs looked bright enough when looking directly at them. But they did zero for the plants. A single new 24W T5HO has a reading of 40 16" below and these old 220W bulbs had 45 just 6" away! From what I can tell a t5HO bulb has a reduced light output after about 6 months. Maybe a little but it is not what was in the beginning. Next time you or someone else asks about algae problems or plant growth problems the age of the bulbs will be one of my first questions.


----------



## Yo-han

But what was the PAR of the 220 to begin with? Maybe lots of green, no red or blue? Someone on a Dutch forum stated that Philips t5ho had only 5% reduced PAR over a few years...


----------



## Zapins

Yo-han said:


> But what was the PAR of the 220 to begin with? Maybe lots of green, no red or blue? Someone on a Dutch forum stated that Philips t5ho had only 5% reduced PAR over a few years...


Agreed. Would need to know this to be 100% sure, but even so 45 seems like a very low value for 220w.

I'm curious, have you ever tried using the PAR meter on one of those cheap 250 or 500 watt sodium lights they sell at home depot for night time construction work? I've often heard they don't put out the right type of light for plants but it would be interesting to double check that assumption.


----------



## Yo-han

@ Michael: high Kelvin indeed. Lowest are two dennerle daylight bulbs, osram 880 and higher.


----------



## niko

I don't know about the PAR when the VHO bulbs where new. But I tell you this - since I own this PAR meter now I take measurements of what not lights (including the bulb under a microwave, ahha). And at close distances the readings are high. Bulbs that look like nothing have PAR that is just fine for an 8-10" deep tank. And to have a reading of 45 with 220W of light is truly amazing - I'm not sure I will find a bulb like that any more.

I have access to quite a few different kind of bulbs - Halides, fluorescents, CF, dome spot lights, LED - and I suspect I will be taking measurements and posting here about them.

A guy that knows more about aquatic plants than most people told me "Any strong light will grow plants well." I have the feeling that might be the simple truth. I'm still trying to make sense of Hoppy's charts of PAR vs. distance from the bulb that he has posted on TPT. According to them a cool and popular LED fixture does not beat 2x24W T5HO. This seems to be the same with virtually all other fixtures on his charts. I'm not hellbent on T5HO being superior but decide for yourself:

DIY T5HO, individual Tek reflectors, Fulham Workhorse ballast - 2x24W, 18 inches from the bulb.
PAR is 79.

Now look for the 18" distance (or to make it easy - the 20" distance). And find a light that produces 80 PAR:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368










































Also find the PAR at 18" for LEDs in the link below. None of them gets to 79 at 18". And consider that the LED PAR will be huge right under the emitter but just a few inches to the side will drop dead. The T5 produce that high PAR over a wider area.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396

Don't get me wrong - I am not crazy about T5HO or anything. But what I see is the same old situation - fads and advertisement. About "amazing" lights now.


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## fishyjoe24

also ballast will make a difference too. not every ballast is the same. I have always loved fullham work horse 5-7 ballast and tek's reflectors. I use to use the hagen glo reflectors nope don't like them.


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## niko

Did some more digging on T5HO vs. LED. Unless you have a huge LED rig the T5HO still seem to stay ahead.

Here's a video. Don't know how deep the tank is. But if the light fixture is 25 inches long (bulb length 24" + say 1" for end caps) you can judge the depth. I estimate that the water is about 15" deep. Note the PAR at the bottom. At 1:07-1:10 it's about 90. That's with 2x24W bulbs AND not right under the bulbs. 

Note that getting close to the front glass actually increased the PAR a little. Also note how fast the PAR on the bottom decreases when he moves the sensor somewhat close to tall stem plants (not even right under them).

So how come carpet plants that grow well in a tank and receive vastly different PAR do grow like an even carpet? How come you don't see areas that look great and areas that look just ok? I have seen an extreme example of that - a tank which had fresh green leaves growing in complete darknes (Java Fern, the back bottom side of the tank was in complete darkness because the thickly growing plant blocked all the light). To this day I cannot really buy the explanation that plants transport and shuffle nutrients and adjust the metabolism so the entire plant gets to live a life full of beauty and joy. Why on Earth leaves growing in complete darkness will be as green as the ones reaching the surface 3" below the light? Bottom line generalization is that when plants grow well they indeed do things that make no sense IF we just look at numbers and look at things from our limited perspective.


----------



## niko

And since we discuss just numbers here it would be good if we note once again that numbers are not everything.

Here's an example from today:
Remember the tank with the 220W VHO bulbs that produced ridiculously low PAR of 45? The one that I installed brand new killer T5HO rig. Using 1x54W Giesmann Midday bulb and 1x54W Giesemann AquaFlora bulb (total of 128W). But the bulbs have brand new Tek reflectors and are driven by a Fulham Workhorse ballast. You cannot stand by the light fixture and have your face illuminated from the side - the light blinds you.

So that is the light I installed on that tank the other day. The color is beautiful. However what I found floating in the water is against everything I believe. N=30 and P=2.5. Thanks to the "fertilizers in the water must be the solution" mentality I now have a tank with super high light, and a nuclear explosion waiting to happen. Guess where I'm headed today with 2 big pails of clean water?

But why is all that interesting? Because IF we look at the numbers only (high PAR, N, and P) we see a disaster coming. I want to hear from the people that will tell me today that the tank will be just fine and I don't need to worry about it. We all know what will happen in the next few days in that tank. But we will all agree that if the tank had been gradually brought to that same state it will probably be bursting at the seams with extremely healthy plant growth. Without any algae. The point is that if we just focus on numbers we WILL BE way off. I say that because it is the rule to see questions and advice about reaching and maintaining certain values (ppm fert concentration, bps of CO2, wpg of light, gph of flow). 

And here's a common sense refresher: From what I see now with that PAR meter very much ANY bulb will provide enough PAR to grow any plant you want IF the tank is shallow. 8 to 10" tank and you can use the oldest bulb you can find at a garage sale at a 100 year old estate sale or something. It will still grow plants. Get you a deeper tank - say 20 inches and it looks like you run at the same issue again and again - good PAR is hard to get to the bottom. So the question is - Do you need a super efficient light with super high PAR if you can run the tank in a certain way and lead it to a state in which it works despite what the numbers tell you is way off?


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## Yo-han

niko said:


> Note that getting close to the front glass actually increased the PAR a little. Also note how fast the PAR on the bottom decreases when he moves the sensor somewhat close to tall stem plants (not even right under them).


I found the same thing. Guess it is from reflection of the glass.



niko said:


> So how come carpet plants that grow well in a tank and receive vastly different PAR do grow like an even carpet? How come you don't see areas that look great and areas that look just ok? I have seen an extreme example of that - a tank which had fresh green leaves growing in complete darknes (Java Fern, the back bottom side of the tank was in complete darkness because the thickly growing plant blocked all the light). To this day I cannot really buy the explanation that plants transport and shuffle nutrients and adjust the metabolism so the entire plant gets to live a life full of beauty and joy. Why on Earth leaves growing in complete darkness will be as green as the ones reaching the surface 3" below the light? Bottom line generalization is that when plants grow well they indeed do things that make no sense IF we just look at numbers and look at things from our limited perspective.


Asked the same question a few days back. My glosso is growing perfectly healthy substrate hugging in the front. But it sends runners below my wood and crypts and it is still hugging the substrate. I planted a few new pieces of glosso in the dark, not in connection with leaves in the light and will see whether this will grow upwards... (it did before but maybe something changed)


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## niko

Talking about plant leaves looking good in darkness or shaded areas... Some years ago a legendary American aquarist visited Amano's house and walked all over the big tank. He said that at that time there were Rotala stems in the back of the tank. Tank is what? 5 feet tall? He said that the rotalas were about 4 feet long if I'm not mistaken. Ok, good, amazing allright, whatever. But what he saw was that every single leaf on these stems was perfect - starting from the leaves by the AquaSoil. Try that at home if you can.


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## dbot

Aquarium size: 3.5 Gallon - 34.5 cm x 20 cm x 23 cm (L x W x H)
Type of light fixture AND reflector: Finnex FugeRay: Ultra Slim LED + Moonlights 12"
Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 1 lamp, 3*16 LED
Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 1.5 years
Other information: 7000K bulbs + moonlights
Distance from light fixture to surface: 2"
Distance from light fixture to substrate: 8.5”
PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE: 100 
PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: ~50 +/- 5

Aquarium size: 2 gallons - 18.4 cm x 22.9 cm x 25.4 cm (L X W X H)
Type of light fixture AND reflector: Finnex Energy Saving Epoch Cliplight + Moonlights 
Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 1 lamp, 26W, 1 bulb, 3 tubes
Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 6 months
Other information: 30,000k - 10,000k, 3U Type, Energy Saving Blue/White bulb, 2 LED Spot Moonlight
Distance from light fixture to surface: 10.2 cm
Distance from light fixture to substrate 26 cm
PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE: 75 +/- 5
PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 20 +/- 5

Aquarium size: 2 gallons - 18.4 cm x 22.9 cm x 25.4 cm (L X W X H)
Type of light fixture AND reflector: Fluval LED
Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 1 lamp, 31 LED
Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: 7 months
Other information: 
Distance from light fixture to surface: 8.3 cm
Distance from light fixture to substrate 23.5 cm
PAR VALUES MEASURED AT UNDER WATER SURFACE: 40 +/- 4
PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: 5 +/- 2

I have one last tank to test it on but I haven't filled the tank...need to drill some holes...


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## niko

I played with two kinds of bulbs - a 100W halogen bulb and a 100W Mercury Vapor bulb. Measured PAR with a meter that doesn't belong to the club.

Readings for the 100W halogen where mind blowing: 
250 PAR at 3-1/2 ft. (air only)
110 PAR at 4 ft (through 14" of water)
Super high PAR. No LED or Fluorescents come even close.
Shocking shimmer when the bulb is 3 ft. above the tank.
Rated for 4200 hours only. Runs hot but not hotter than a powerful LED.
Color of the light was beautiful - very natural.

Readings for the 100W Mercury Vapor where mind blowing too:
Barely PAR 20 at 3 ft. through air. But you could not look at the bulb, it is so bright.
Apparently quite a bit of the light these bulbs produce is in the UV spectrum or something like that.
There are no ballasts being sold for these bulbs any more. Bulbs yes, ballasts - no. Either way - super bright with a super low PAR.


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## Michael

We are still trying to define "high light" and "low light" in terms of PAR measurements. Here is an interesting tip from George Farmer that originally appeared in an article in Practical Fishkeeping http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5633:

"As a tip, buy or borrow a PAR meter to measure your current lighting levels. If it's over 50 µmol at the substrate you'll need CO2 injection and regular fertiliser additions. If you have suspended lighting raise or lower the unit to adjust the intensity. Lighting over 100 µmol at the substrate will demand high CO2 and nutrient levels and is only recommended for experienced plant growers."

This advice gives us a possible criterion for the CO2/no CO2 decision.


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## niko

"As a tip, buy or borrow a PAR meter to measure your current lighting levels. If it’s over 50 µmol at the substrate you’ll need CO2 injection and regular fertiliser additions. If you have suspended lighting raise or lower the unit to adjust the intensity. Lighting over 100 µmol at the substrate will demand high CO2 and nutrient levels and is only recommended for experienced plant growers."

That advice should also make you ask yourself 3 more questions:
1. "Can the substrate help in any way in feeding my plants?"
2. "Do I want a tank that is stable and low maintenance or not?"
3. "Is more always better?"


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## BriDroid

BriDroid said:


> I'm not using glass tops and I'm using a Toms surface skimmer to keep the surface clean.
> 
> PAR DATA COLLECTION
> March 31, 2013
> 
> Aquarium size: 72 bow front
> 48"L 12"W on the ends 18"W at the middle and 24"D
> 
> Type of light fixture AND reflector: Finnex Ray 2 DS 48" 7000K LEDs
> 
> Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage: 384 LEDs, 39 watts
> 
> Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes: about 4 months old
> 
> Other information:
> 
> Distance from light fixture to substrate: 22"
> 
> PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE: Directly under fixture, 43 par
> 6" off from center, 33 par
> 
> Comments:
> Directly under light
> At surface, about 1.5" under light 630 par
> 6" 200 par
> 12" 100 par
> 18" 68 par
> 22" at substrate 43 par
> 
> 6" out from the center of the light
> At surface 35 par
> 6" 73 par
> 12" 77 par
> 18" 47 par
> 22" at substrate 33 par


I'm now running this light over my 33 long. I'm getting about 100 PAR at the substrate. I think I'm going to raise it up a few inches just to get myself into the 80's.


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## Michael

Of all the ready-made LED fixtures, the Finnex ones seem to be consistently useful for planted tanks.


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## Zapins

Out of curiosity what is the PAR value at noon on a sunny day?


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## Michael

See post number 8. Noon in June in Dallas: 1,700 umols.


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## Zapins

Wow, and what would you consider high light for aquatic plants? I know there seems to be some debate on this topic, but roughly?


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## BriDroid

How accurate is that 1700 Michael? The Apogee sensors are calibrated for either natural sunlight or electric light from the factory. I'm assuming the clubs meter is for electric light? If so, I wonder how far off it would read under natural light?


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## Michael

Zapins, that is what we are all trying to figure out! Here's my subjective opinion, and I am inviting scorn from all corners with this. But I can take it, LOL! All numbers refer to PAR at substrate.

20 umols is low, below this only the most shade tolerant plants will grow well. 40 umols is medium--a very large variety of plants will grow well. 80 umols is high and will grow almost anything. Much above 80 umols at the substrate you are driving the Ferrari on an icy mountain road, and had better know what you are doing.

Something I think is important is photoperiod, and how long the light is at what intensity. Again, my subjective opinion is that the "midday burst" schedule most closely resembles nature, and you may be able to flirt with high PAR using that method. This comes partly from my observations of sunlight in my own ponds. Except at midday, surface reflection greatly reduces the amount of light received by submerged plants. 

BriDroid, our meter has both electric light and sunlight settings. The outdoor readings were taken with the meter in sunlight mode. However, the manual says that if you use the wrong setting the error is only 5-10%, I can't remember up or down. You can get that much change just by moving the sensor a fraction of an inch in a planted tank, so I regard it as insignificant.


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## Zapins

Interesting. Those values fall roughly into the same value difference I see between hydroponics values and aquatic plant values. It seems like aquatic plants need between 10-20x (closer to 10x) less nutrients than hydroponically grown plants. So it doesn't surprise me that from 1700 to 80 PAR makes sense, that is roughly 20x less light, which is inline with 10-20x less nutrient requirements. Obviously light drives the entire process, so if you need 20x less light you should need roughly 20x less nutrients on average.


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## niko

Michael is right - PAR of 50 is all you need. Everything above that puts you in a situation where you need to raise the CO2 and run all day after nutrients. Most people will say that works but it really does not because there are interactions between the basic fertilizers that happen when the CO2 is to high. These interactions are not what we normally discuss (like P and Fe for example). Basically you can be starving the plants from ferts that you assume you have enough of because you add a lot of them (K is one example).

Once again ADA seems to have figured all of that out more than a decade ago - pH=6.8 and medium light. Providing most of the nutrients through the substrate can be seen as a stable way to provide them. If you rely on ferts floating free in the water who knows what happens when you over or underdo this or that other factor. That's where we have been swimming for the last decade.

High PAR can be provided in many ways but you better understand what happens if you actually provide it. It looks like the experiment that the club started 3 or so years ago have given numbers that start to make more sense now. Another experiment that I hope will materialize is finding what is a "proper" COD (organics loosely put). JeffyFunk is trying to find that out. Once again - ADA has had their eye on that too and even sells a seemingly toylike test kit for it. I am glad that we are talking about all these things, despite the funny time stretch from the "Amano Revolution" in the late 90's until now.


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## Zapins

While Amanos setups do seem to match some of the ideal values we are discovering I am not convinced they knew about these values first and then designed their products to match. I think they just happened upon a formula that seemed to work and stuck with it.


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## niko

Checked the PAR of two common bulbs - a parabolic one used to light up the driveway and a kind of bulb that is meant to be used instead of an incandescent but it has a halogen setup inside. The PARs where pretty much mind blowing:

Driveway bulb: *PAR120 at 3 feet.*
The driveway parabolic is 100W.









Halogen "incandescent": *PAR100 at 1 foot* (and that is without any reflectors, just a bare bulb shining in all directions. With a reflector the PAR will be spectacular for sure).
The halogen "incandescent" is 72 watts. /u









Everybody will say that both bulbs run too hot. But try to get the same PAR from the same distance using LEDs - you will have to have serious cooling. T5HO on the other hand are tubes - they will run cooler but you cannot focus the light over a smaller tank for example. And don't forget that with the parabolic driveway bulb you can make shimmer. Same for the "incandescent" if you use a tight round reflector.

Both bulbs can be found in any hardware store. Very cheap ($3 and $10) and can be screwed in any incandescent bulb socket. I do think that both of them bend the rule "You can't have cheap AND great". The bulbs are the the rock bottom cheapest light setup one can get. And the performance kills both LEDs and T5HOs because there are no special ballast, drivers, etc.

The color of the light from both bulbs is about 5500K - not reddish at all but not stark white.


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## Michael

Is the driveway bulb a halogen also? I see a trip the hardware store in my near future!


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## niko

I think it is a halogen bulb. Mine came installed when we bought the house but here is a replacement bulb at Home Depot:
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/90w-par-38-medium-base-halogen-flood/947932

Have in mind that I can feel some heat from these bulbs from about 1 foot distance. But at that distance you are going to get close to 250 PAR more or less. The only downside I see to these bulbs is that the spot that they illuminate maybe larger than you want it (spill light around the tank). Other than that, sorry to say, but these things beat everybody else.

I am considering using these over a 2 ft. tall tank. Hard to say "no" to $10.


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## niko

Well, I got one of these bulbs and tested it at home. Measured PAR through air, through 2 ft. of water, etc.

I thought my PAR meter was broken. The numbers are off the chart but the intensity of the illumination is not really there.

My bulb produces *PAR 700 from 1 foot away*. 300 on the bottom of a 2 ft tall tank with the bulb 1 foot above the surface of the water.  I get 70 PAR only when my meter is 5-1/2 feet away!

Once again - the light is not very bright. Apparently this is one of those cases when PAR is monstrous but the light appears so-so to the human eye. This bulb should be classified as "grow bulb".

The coverage is also not very exciting. The bulb makes a bright spot right under itself. To light up a 6' tank evenly I will need 8 of these bulbs. Funny thing 800 watts of LED is what is needed to light evenly the same tank BUT with much less PAR. 8 of the parabolic bulbs will cost $80 and will provide between 200 and 300 PAR on the bottom of a 2 ft tall tank with the bulb suspended 1-2 ft. above the tank.

Heat is not an issue really. At 1 ft. I can feel it so-so on my hand, nothing too much.

Mount a bulb like that too low over your tank and all kinds of problems will start to happen because of the huge PAR and the misleading "low intensity" that the human eye perceives. You turned on the afterburners and never even suspected it because the bulb costs $10 and the light looks dim to you. All kinds of deficiencies right off the bat, guaranteed.

And yes - the bulb makes a spectacular shimmer. Every little fish has a deep dark shadow under itself, even if they are 6" above the bottom. Stir the surface of the water a little and shimmer is extreme but mainly under the bulb. Kind of strange to get such big shimmer effect considering the perceived light intensity is not very high.

The light appears yellowish compared to a 6000K Giesemann Midday T5HO. But that kind of T5HO has a very strange color anyway - very bright for being 6000K. My point is - the parabolic bulb can definitely be used by itself and the color of the light is just fine unless you really really hate anything close to yellow light.


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## Zapins

Can you post the bulb's item number and company info so others can buy the bulb?


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## niko

No. I mean to market it as a high PAR LED. You can't see what's inside and as long as 'LED' is on the box people will not even think of anything else. Because it is LEDs that make all dreams come true.

One other amusing thing - all these bulbs internals rattle. As if a piece if half-loose glass is inside. It probably has to do with how the components work when the bulb heats up.

I just came back from Home Depot. The parabolic bulbs are very easy to find but they do not make the 100 watt version any more. Now there are 72 and 83 watts with lumen output like my 100 watt test bulb. There was also a 93 watt parabolic. Pretty much I can bet that the PAR will certainly be the same murderous value (corresponding to the wattage of course). These are the only parabolic bulbs at the store that are halogen and there is no problem finding them.

Actually there was a 150W version too. If the PAR corresponds to the PAR of my 100W bulb that 150W could grow HC on the bottom of your 3' tall tank even if you mount the bulb on the moon.

Three more discoveries "that make you go uhmm..":

1. The halogen parabolic bulb appears to be the exact same thing as the "halogen incandescent" which I showed on a picture above. I bet the manufacturer just puts different housings - an "incandescent" and a "parabolic".

2. I noticed that very much every bulb now sold at Home Depot has a lumen rating. And if you look at the LED bulbs vs. compact fluorescents vs. halogens you will be humbled. The halogens blow everybody else out of the water if you look at the lumens and the price. If their PAR is what I found with a single one of them then I don't know what to say about LEDs. The only apparent drawback of halogens is their shorter life. But for the price you are not going to waste any money. Go to the store and compare lumens and prices if you care.

3. The Queen Bee of all high lumen bulbs was a halogen. 2800 lumens and uses 75 watts. Costs $7. Life is 3 months if you use it 8 hours a day. Tiny bulb - the size of your pinky finger and no reflector. In comparison the halogen I tested was 1700 lumens but it had its own reflector. This tiny bulb can easily be mounted between two fluorescent tubes or two strips of LEDs and provide the huge PAR and shimmer for a short time every day. Like the old ADA light fixtures but now with more understanding of PAR, visible light intensity, the place of LEDs and fluorescents. All things that I bet ADA knew years ago and never discussed openly.

And I hope no one forgets - *50-70 PAR is all you need to grow anything on the bottom of your tank*. So here it is - LEDs are great indeed because they are not very powerful (unless you just have to spend your money on them). One huge factor to take into consideration with high PAR is how dense is your planting. PAR drops like crazy with shading. If you have issues growing plants with high PAR lighting setup consider the planting density. Don't immediately run to look at Zapin's "Photographic catalog of extraordinary plant deficiencies". I say that because recently I had an experience with super high PAR performance bulbs which did very little for plant growth. The tank was so stuffed with plants that even after pulling half of them out the tank still looks very full. Took me just 2 months to figure out that it is nothing else but shading that was cramping my own high opinion of myself.


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## Zapins

If you can find the packaging that your bulb came in please post the details. While there may only be one bulb in your local hardware store this may not be the case everywhere, people might buy the wrong type of bulb and get totally different results.

Also, I plan on adding lighting issues to my "catalog of extraordinary plant deficiencies" over time.


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## niko

If you go that route than you need to add pictures of symptoms of toxicity due to following... a high fertilizer method of running a planted tank.

Ok here it is that is the designation on the box: "100PAR38/IRC/FL25 120V"

http://www.lightingsupply.com/100par38-irc-fl25-120v.aspx

I could not find that same bulb at Home Depot. I measured the PAR on a bulb that I found at my church. I assumed it is nothing special and the church probably uses these bulbs for stage light purposes instead of the more common parabolic ones.

On the box of the super high PAR bulbs it says "Energy Advantage IR Halogen PAR bulb". From what I know "PAR" is used to designate "parabolic" shape, but note something else - the buls is "IR" (infrared). Here are some more specs on it:
http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewSIMItem/bcrw/simid/3679/item.html

I was wrong the Kelvins and about the lumens. It is only 2900K which I am surprised because the light does not look as yellow compared to the 6000K Giesemann Midday. The lumens are higher than the parabolic bulbs sold at Home Depot (1790 lumens maximum for the 93 watt).

So what I tested is indeed a special bulb and Zapins here saved the day. I have some of the Home Depot bulbs and I can test them too. But something else is more interesting - since this is an "IR" bulb I wonder if the PAR meter gives misleading readings. It could show a super high PAR but it is actually due only to wavelengths in the red part of the spectrum. No 660 nm. How does that affect the plants? Chances are it is super efficient because many of the grow lights aim for light that looks red to the eye.


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## niko

Apparently I know nothing about halogen bulbs so I started to do some research. The idea here is to try to figure out how applicable are these bulbs for the planted tank hobby. Far from believing they are the best but you can tell there is something valuable here. The notes below are just a start and I post them here so I don't lose them:

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partne...010/Lighting Technology Updates Stockdale.pdf (pages 5 and 11)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp (Look at "Spectrum")
http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-5761.pdf (page 4 "Halogen Energy Advantage IR")

http://blog.1000bulbs.com/how-do-infrared-ir-halogens-save-energy/






The real test of the new wave halogen bulbs would be to just setup a tank using them. What I think I see so far is that halogen bulbs have evolved a lot in the last several years. So are T5HO and LEDs and naturally who would look at halogens again which we "knew" from years back. But after finding out the monstrous PAR of the bulb I have I think the new halogens are worthy of consideration so we know where this or that type of bulb stands as far as the PAR that the plants are interested in is concerned.


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## sonvar

Michael said:


> Some more outdoor pond measurements, taken last month at about noon:
> 
> Just above the surface--1,700
> 12" below the surface--1,200
> 24" below the surface--800
> 
> I think we may need to change our definition of "high light".
> 
> I am not sure about where you live, but many ponds in my area are dark and murky from an abondance of algae. So if we were to have high light similar to outdoors, we would probably have algae soup for a tank


----------



## Michael

The PAR measures quoted above were taken in my backyard garden ponds. None are more than 24" deep. On the day I took those readings, the water was clear enough to read a newspaper on the bottom of the ponds.

Of course, they are not always that clear! And one thing we have learned from this thread is that you can grow a huge variety of plants with moderate PAR: 40 to 50 umol at the substrate.


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## Zapins

Good work on the lighting front!

It would be helpful to see the information in this thread compiled into neat tables or graphs. A summary of the findings would help standardize future lighting advice.


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## Michael

I've tried to figure out a way to do that, but there are so many variables. It is a cliche, but no two tanks are exactly alike.


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## old 97

niko said:


> On the box of the super high PAR bulbs it says "Energy Advantage IR Halogen PAR bulb". From what I know "PAR" is used to designate "parabolic" shape, but note something else - the buls is "IR" (infrared). ]


 Parabolic Anodized Reflector.

PAR 38 - degree of reflector angle ?










Incandescent=halogen ?

Wouldn't this give you all leg ?


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## Tyger

Great thread - lots to think about


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## mooncon

I should have done this at least a month ago but im a procrastinator and keep putting it off.The first tank is a 75 gallon shrimp tank,the club par meter shows a par of 18 at the substrate. It defies everything ive read about as far as lighting goes.The second tank is a 150 gallon discus tank it has a par of 85 at the substrate it would have been higher a few weeks before i checked it if I hadn't raised the lights about 2 1/2"i had an algae problem from feeding beefheart to the discus.The 150 is mineralized topsoil with clay mixed in,the 75 is mineralized topsoil that is mixed half and half with safe-t-zorb I am getting ready to redo the 150 the same as the 75 I think its a better mix in my opinion just from the growth with what little light I have.


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## fishyjoe24

I need to borrow the club meter for my 75 gallon. I bought a use wave point 4 bulb t5 fixture, replaced the blue bulbs with a colormax and 6,700k. (hey hey I know I know coral life bulbs but they where 30% off at the fish gallery, anything to save money on my budget.  ) . oh and the 10k turned out to be 6,700k and those will need to be replaced to as they have 7-17-13 on them. but any way I need to borrow the club meter. who do I report to so I can borrow it.


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## gonzoman

FishyJoe, 

I should be done with the meter tomorrow. I will message you on facebook when I am ready for the handoff. 

I am currently testing some very promising Phillips and Sylvania Lowes/Home depot bulbs on smaller tanks. I will post up the par ratings, they are surprisingly good. 


.


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## fishyjoe24

gonzoman said:


> FishyJoe,
> 
> I should be done with the meter tomorrow. I will message you on facebook when I am ready for the handoff.
> 
> I am currently testing some very promising Phillips and Sylvania Lowes/Home depot bulbs on smaller tanks. I will post up the par ratings, they are surprisingly good.
> 
> .


Thanks sounds good...


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## gonzoman

Par data collection report. 


aquarium: standard 20 long. 

Type of bulb: Sylvania green leaf 6500k 100w compact fluorescent (8.99 two bulbs Lowes)
Reflector: Lowes aluminum shop light (cheap)


Par at bulb: varied but average 490 par. 

Par at substrate: 108 par at center of spot 80 par on outer edges of spot light .


Par 2" above substrate: par 220 

Par 6" below surface: 300 par average. 

Total cost of suspension and bulbs: 80.00


I will include pictures of the suspension. 




Overall impression: These bulbs are bright. The cheap hoods focus the lights quite a bit. Very focused, light dissipates very quickly on the edges of the hood. Overall par is good but does vary quite a bit on the substrate in regards to where the actual hood is. Very bright clean light. 


I did a similar test using the Phillips 100w compact fluorescent bulbs. Good light, par ratings varied a bit more and were a bit lower. I would choose the Sylvania bulbs.


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## gonzoman

The Par meter will be ready to pass along tonight. I have strep throat at the moment and would prefer not to drive a real long ways if possible. FishyJoe what is your schedule this evening?


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## Michael

Thank you for posting this. I've used the Sylvania compact fluorescents on 5 of my 6 tanks for years, and the clamp light fixtures are especially good because they hold the CFLs in the vertical position. CFLs produce significantly more light (for aquarium purposes) when mounted vertically in a reflector. The reasons are complex and are mostly due to a phenomenon known as restrike.

*Planted tank enthusiasts, throw off your chains! Effective aquarium lighting can be cheap and easy.*


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## gonzoman

On an interesting side note. The hood for this tank had built in Tetra LEDs, marketed as ideal for plant growing. These leds measured Par 3 at the bulb and had no measurable par at the substrate.



Michael said:


> Thank you for posting this. I've used the Sylvania compact fluorescents on 5 of my 6 tanks for years, and the clamp light fixtures are especially good because they hold the CFLs in the vertical position. CFLs produce significantly more light (for aquarium purposes) when mounted vertically in a reflector. The reasons are complex and are mostly due to a phenomenon known as restrike.
> 
> *Planted tank enthusiasts, throw off your chains! Effective aquarium lighting can be cheap and easy.*


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## Michael

We tested the Aqueon LED fixtures at a shop during one of our meetings. These were the expandable ones that you can add 2 extra LED strips to the one that comes standard. They were a little better than your Tetra, but even with all 3 strips installed, the fixtures are essentially worthless for planted tanks.


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## fishyjoe24

I think the finnex has been the only plant led I've seen with good par. then you get in to the saltwater led, and got lots to choice from but then you look at 300-800 dollars.


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## TropTrea

I started making my own LED fixtures about 8 years ago for my salt water tanks. Home built was a fraction of the cost of commercial fixtures and with the commercial fixtures I heard loads of Complaints from people that even spent $1000.00+ on fixtures.

Now that i converted all my tanks to fresh water I found I have to detune the fixtures considerably. On some of my tanks i'm getting fantastic plant growth with less than 1/2 watt per gallon. The thing though is I'm using LED that are producing 150 plus lumns per watt. And I'm tuning the spectrum for plants. 

On my brightest tank I'm using 18 Watts on 30 gallon tank. I had to reduce my cycle time to about 5 hours per day in order to keep algea under control.


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## niko

TropTrea,

I just sent you a message about a DIY LED fixture for a 6' tank. Please check it out.


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## NursePlaty

*PAR DATA COLLECTION*

*Aquarium size:* Standard 55g

*Type of light fixture AND reflector:* DIY hood w/ Pigtail CFLs, white semi-gloss paint interior

*Number of lamps, bulbs, or tubes, and wattage:* 7x 13w 6500k CFLs

*Age of lamps, bulbs, or tubes:* 5 months

*Other information: * CFLs are mounted horizontally

*Distance from light fixture to substrate:* 24"

*PAR VALUES MEASURED AT SUBSTRATE:* 54

*Comments:* I thought I had too much light, tank is very bright. Till I learned that I'm only at 54PAR at the substrate. Going to upgrade to 23w bulbs instead of 13w and re-measure. Also I have white semi-gloss paint inside my fixture maybe aluminum reflectors is superior, will experiment with that as well. This is a high-tech tank with CO2 and ferts. Aiming for 80+ PAR


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## Michael

Thanks for posting this! 80+ PAR will be a lot of light.

Unless you can install highly polished metal reflectors in your hood, you are unlikely to get much improvement over the white paint you already have. As an alternative to CFLs, I've had really good results with hardware store LED screw-in "bulbs".


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