# State of the hobby???...



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

A few days ago I saw a thread asking what had happened to the activity of the forum(s). I know personally, that I am not very active these days, and it seems many of the folks who were very active in the past, are not either. In my case,for me, it is not due to a lack of interest or no longer having tanks, I still have both. Life happens, and I decided that having tanks with mostly slow growers beats having to prune every other week. To paraphrase an old saying...maintenance time is money.

But it got me to thinking how has the hobby changed in the last few years? So if someone were going to start from scratch and wanted to know what the 'best way' was to set up a planted tank, what would you tell them? 

We have a variety of substrates (ADA, DIY, Flurite, etc); a variety of lighting methods (CF, MH, LED, etc); variety in fertilization approaches (PPS, EI, ADA style, soil, etc)....I guess the one constant is the requirement of a good filter. 

So, I'd be real curious to see what folks would say regarding where the hobby is.  You don't have to be an expert, nor go into great detail. Give it a shot!


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

This very subject came up in my home forum, APE, where I am also a mod. 

In all seriousness, it could be a couple of things. Sooner, more pleasant weather has people taking a mid Spring vacation and staying outdoors longer now that there is a bit more sun light and then there's the economy. Also, there is the freak show of this year's presidential election which may have other effects we're not taking into consideration.

Another, more philosophical concern is that maybe we're at the end of knowledge for the hobby. Everything has been experienced and documented and all the major variations. Maybe it's possible now for a total newb, in a few days, to read all the history, all the methodologies, all the debates, all the various reviews and just get on with it successfully. Beyond forums, there are back issues of magazines, websites, Google docs, spreadsheets, blogs, information in every conceivable form. No one is left to ask questions because there are no more questions. This isn't academic limnology, botany or ichthyology or even the entirety of ecology; Just a very technical hobby with finite concerns. 

Are we at Peak Planted Tank? Is the marketplace supersaturated?

Perhaps. Maybe we're looking at this wrong. Maybe it's the forum format itself? With Google Hangouts, Skype, SnapChat, KiK, Slack and countless other services, maybe the days of posting and waiting for an answer from the Hive Mind are ending. Instead, log into IRC and get instant feedback.

It is all very peculiar.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Bert H,

Based upon the numbers I've seen the majority of the activity has moved over to TPT. I know in our local club planted tanks are more popular than they ever were.


----------



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

I think a lot of people are connecting via groups on Facebook, too.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

vancat said:


> I think a lot of people are connecting via groups on Facebook, too.


So there is an aquatic plant group on FB?


----------



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

A whole crapload of them. Here's a few:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AquaticGardeners/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NYAPS/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/954727274614628/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/187094368304138/

they are closed groups so you have to ask to join.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

vancat said:


> A whole crapload of them. Here's a few:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/AquaticGardeners/
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/NYAPS/
> ...


On one hand, I say good for them, on the other, I say that kinda bums me out a little. It's nice to have a select group of like minded folks but then there's that artificial barrier. It's easy to cross, just send a friend request but their posts are transparent and visible to the world but not easily indexed & searched by the like of, say, Google. I instinctually cringe at anything that creates, however unintentionally, an us vs them dynamic. Insiders & outsiders.

I'm conflicted.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I have a limited perspective: this forum, our local general interest forum DFW Fish Box, and the activities of my local club. I see very active interest in planted aquaria and lots of beginners asking questions. The local aquarium stores carry many more plants, and advertise the arrival of a new plant shipment the way they used to advertise a new lot African cichlids.

In some ways, the hobby has matured. There is ready information about several different methods to set up a successful planted tank. And hobbyists' interests have shifted from the latest high tech internet aquarium contest winner to what can be called sustainable planted tanks--aquascapes that thrive and remain attractive for years, not months.

What we still lack is good science-based freely available information on how to set up a planted aquarium. Our methods are still largely based on trial and error, secret proprietary systems, and personality cults.

As to the "conflict", if there is one, between internet forums like this one and social media based groups, I say pick what you like. My preference is for long-term searchable information sources like APC. And I hear young beginners abandoning Facebook groups because it is so difficult to retrieve information. They still have their Facebook pages for social purposes, but come to other sites for technical information.

At least the smart, serious ones do.


----------



## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

The forums seem to have become advertising opportunities. 
When a sponsor starts answering posts it has to make you wonder? 
Is this answer for me or their wallet? 
It must be all about US not them.

Some sites have threads so old that photos have been lost - rendering the information totally useless.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Aquaticz said:


> The forums seem to have become advertising opportunities.
> 
> When a sponsor starts answering posts it has to make you wonder?
> 
> ...


Agree with this. Nothing more than money making operation nowadays.

Obviously they aren't free to run, but it gets to be more about lining the pockets than providing a source of information for the hobby.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

ukamikazu said:


> On one hand, I say good for them, on the other, I say that kinda bums me out a little. It's nice to have a select group of like minded folks but then there's that artificial barrier. It's easy to cross, just send a friend request but their posts are transparent and visible to the world but not easily indexed & searched by the like of, say, Google. I instinctually cringe at anything that creates, however unintentionally, an us vs them dynamic. Insiders & outsiders.
> 
> I'm conflicted.


I follow several private groups. That's where to good plants are for sale and pictures you'd never ordinarily see.

They are just private because if they weren't, you'll find out how some blonde FINALLY found the real link to Finding Dory and it's totally legit and free.

You know, most Japanese don't use forums. They have personal and highly detailed blogs, and they list blogs they follow so you can find more similar blogs. Everyone has a blog. You can get the general idea of what's going on if you use google translator.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1030459496981417/?ref=group_browse_new
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NordicScapers/?ref=group_browse_new
https://www.facebook.com/groups/259927137681824/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/theplantedtankcenter/?ref=suggested_groups
https://www.facebook.com/groups/259927137681824/


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

ukamikazu said:


> Another, more philosophical concern is that maybe we're at the end of knowledge for the hobby. Everything has been experienced and documented and all the major variations. Maybe it's possible now for a total newb, in a few days, to read all the history, all the methodologies, all the debates, all the various reviews and just get on with it successfully. Beyond forums, there are back issues of magazines, websites, Google docs, spreadsheets, blogs, information in every conceivable form. No one is left to ask questions because there are no more questions. This isn't academic limnology, botany or ichthyology or even the entirety of ecology; Just a very technical hobby with finite concerns.


I don't think it is this particular forum but I do think you hit it on the head with this statement.

I can add one more thing..... I quit the Aquarium hobby 20 years ago and now that I am retired I have time for it again. I was a little taken aback when I discovered that in 20 years Aquarium technology has gone nowhere. I see the same old stuff being used today that I used 20 years ago.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

JustLikeAPill said:


> I follow several private groups. That's where to good plants are for sale and pictures you'd never ordinarily see.
> 
> They are just private because if they weren't, you'll find out how some blonde FINALLY found the real link to Finding Dory and it's totally legit and free.
> 
> ...


Those are some beautiful pages. They are attention grabbing and the Facebook format makes them look really good. All your information in one place. I'm also aware of the blogs. What you say is true. Names like Tom Barr, Amano Takashi and Oliver Knott immediately spring to mind.

I wonder if being something like a YouTuber isn't the way to go? Blog, vlog, what have you, you present what you got as though on your own stage and from there make connections as opposed to these big old accumulators we call forums.

I'm grasping for a pattern here.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

BarryR said:


> I don't think it is this particular forum but I do think you hit it on the head with this statement.
> 
> I can add one more thing..... I quit the Aquarium hobby 20 years ago and now that I am retired I have time for it again. I was a little taken aback when I discovered that in 20 years Aquarium technology has gone nowhere. I see the same old stuff being used today that I used 20 years ago.


This has also troubled me. And the Prices? Good grief! I've started rolling my own.

Lighting really seems to be the only thing that has improved greatly. Anything else, the improvements are small & incremental. But by the same token, is this all we need? If we really started imagining, what would be a revolutionary improvement?

I put it to the public, in this age of home manufacturing, as in 3D printing, modding, making & the like, what could we do that would be revolutionary? What do we want & need?


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

We have begun to conflate two different topics: the state of the planted aquarium hobby and the state of the internet in general.

If you read Niko's latest posts, he believes that the revolution we need is an effective and easy method for removing dissolved organic compounds from the water.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

ukamikazu said:


> This has also troubled me. And the Prices? Good grief! I've started rolling my own.
> 
> Lighting really seems to be the only thing that has improved greatly. Anything else, the improvements are small & incremental. But by the same token, is this all we need? If we really started imagining, what would be a revolutionary improvement?
> 
> I put it to the public, in this age of home manufacturing, as in 3D printing, modding, making & the like, what could we do that would be revolutionary? What do we want & need?





Michael said:


> We have begun to conflate two different topics: the state of the planted aquarium hobby and the state of the internet in general.
> 
> If you read Niko's latest posts, he believes that the revolution we need is an effective and easy method for removing dissolved organic compounds from the water.


The prices don't bother me that much because if one considers inflation they have not gone up as much as many other products. I think the reason the technology is stagnant is due to market size. How many of us would buy a high dollar water analyzer capable of determining the quantity of every important compound in our aquarium on a computer screen?

We already have the ability to remove organic compounds by conversion. Replacing our bio mechanical conversion filters with a magic whizz bang device is not going to replace the lost compounds that a water change provides. There is more to a closed loop environment than just removing stuff, we also have to replace important compounds that have been used up. If we had a complete Auto Pilot for our aquariums then it would no longer be a hobby and we might as well display a movie of fish in their natural environment on a 50 inch TV in our living room.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

I have had both planted and reef as well, and I can say from experience on several forums - the reef hobby only grows while the planted/fresh falls. You have groups of people that are still into it and what not (bloggers referred to earlier) but most who had fresh water go to reef. There are 40 people into reef to every 1 into fresh water.

And without any numbers to prove this, in my person experience, that number grows by the day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

zchauvin said:


> I have had both planted and reef as well, and I can say from experience on several forums - the reef hobby only grows while the planted/fresh falls. You have groups of people that are still into it and what not (bloggers referred to earlier) but most who had fresh water go to reef. There are 40 people into reef to every 1 into fresh water.
> 
> And without any numbers to prove this, in my person experience, that number grows by the day.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The local Tropical Fish stores back up this claim, they are 70% salt water. I think the only reason they even do freshwater is to draw beginners into the hobby. Then most of those beginners eventually go salt water and/or reefs.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

BarryR said:


> The local Tropical Fish stores back up this claim, they are 70% salt water. I think the only reason they even do freshwater is to draw beginners into the hobby. Then most of those beginners eventually go salt water and/or reefs.


Exactly

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

As far as the forum vs Facebook: I find having to remember a password with a capital letter, numeral symbol, blah blah blah is a pain in the neck. FB is so much easier access.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

What is interesting is that this topic has drawn more responses in a short time than actual aquarium topics. I recently posted a little idea i want to try in a 1 gallon planted dirt tank. I was asking for comments on the idea and as a beginner some advice but all I got were lots of views with no actual responses. I will take this as a confirmation that my idea is not interesting and there is nothing that needs to be said about it. 

It takes a community of interested individuals willing to talk about anything related to this hobby to make a active forum. Yes many beginners post stuff that is mundane and has been done many times but if they get little or zero responses they move on and never come back. This is a tragic because every so often a person comes along that comes up with something no one has thought of and makes a significant contribution. Out of the mouth of babes so to speak. :hail:


----------



## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Where is Niko's post Michael?


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ant-club/121002-organics-removal-reactor.html

Most of the thread is a description of his experiments with different resins and reactor set-ups. But the central point is that build-up of dissolved organic compounds causes a number of poorly understood problems, and removing them solves the problems.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

I read Niko's post back then, and, as I said at the time, quite interesting. From what he has found, the removal of organics seems to play a major factor in tank/plant conditions. As I mentioned on the thread, his tank had a very low bioload, and still lots of apparent organics were being removed every 3 days or so. Most of us don't have the time or desire to put in that much time/energy/money into that type of maintenance. If I don't have to prune, it takes me one hour to do my two 50 gals, when I only do a 40-50% water change every 1-2 weeks. Do I want to add another layer of resin/cartridge/filtering which needs minding every 2-3 days? No!
If I was trying to have a 'perfect' tank for a contest, sure, but long term...no. So I put up with a bit of gsa instead.

When I started this thread, my intent was to see what people had to contribute in ways of any significant changes to the hobby compared to 10 years ago, with a lesser intent on the discussion towards the changes in internet forums vs facebook, etc. But I guess, what I am seeing is that there really aren't any really significant changes in the hobby. Other than LED lighting perhaps?


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

There are people trying this and trying that but it's the same in a nut shell. 

The only real "change" I have seen is more and more going to reef and planted scene kind of dying off (this country).

Sure there have been advances in terms of dosing pumps and such but at the end of the day, it's just weeds in water. Light and nutrients.


Take my situation as an example, I came back to the hobby and within a month I've already achieved everything possible. I've grown plants, have no algae, have healthy fish, and trimmed twice now. What else is there to it?? 

While this is only my personal opinion, there just isn't anything to really feed the imagination or desire. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

So what we all seem to be saying is that with the right recipe we can create a low maintenance healthy environment in our Aquariums with the current technology. But we would like something to lower tank maintenance further. I don't think the market is strong enough to absorb the R&D, Engineering and Tooling costs of such technology.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Correct. Not enough market. Most things that have advanced and can be used in freshwater were actually made for reef aquaria


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

This is not what could be though as aquarium specific technology and I don't know what the makeup of the water is once it is misted but it may be useful for other things beyond just a cool looking effect.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

zchauvin said:


> Take my situation as an example, I came back to the hobby and within a month I've already achieved everything possible. I've grown plants, have no algae, have healthy fish, and trimmed twice now. What else is there to it??
> 
> While this is only my personal opinion, there just isn't anything to really feed the imagination or desire.


Really? Even if you have mastered all the technical aspects of the hobby in a month (which would qualify you as an aquarium genius), have you already exhausted all the aesthetic possibilities? Explored every style of aquascape design? Have you created a tank that is stable and beautiful and remains so for years? Have you bred all the fish you are interested in while keeping them in aesthetically pleasing planted tanks? Have you experimented with all the possible combinations of texture and color of plants, substrate, and decor? Have you created a paludarium with healthy fish, aquatic plants, terrestrial plants, and terrestrial animals? Have you attempted an abstract aquarium design that makes no reference to the natural world at all, but relies only on principles of art for guidance?

To me, this sounds more like a failure of imagination than a problem with the hobby.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

I have done none of what you said, but I did grow some plants in a glass box with absolutely no issues whatsoever. 

I'd say that's pretty much the base of a planted tank, growing the plants. 

It wasn't a personal attack or anything, just stating that it doesn't go much further than that with planted tanks.

Sure you can do different aquascapes, Amano pops into my head with this as he had dozens of tanks to constantly do different scapes. While I am sure you could change it up every three or four months, you are still back to the basis of the hobby... Growing grass in water. 


The last dramatic change this hobby had was when Amano introduced Co2 into the aquarium. In my personal opinion there is nothing more, and any store or trend will show you the same. Freshwater is merely a stepping stone for many to get into the aquarium hobby. 

With all that said, I would say that this country lacks to desire or artistic mindset that others do. There are very few people in the US who even know what an aquascape is much less put in the time and effort to create one nice enough to place. Check out the IAPCL or whatever it is, notice any USA winners? Not a chance. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> I have done none of what you said, *but I did grow some plants *in a glass box with absolutely no issues whatsoever.
> 
> *I'd say that's pretty much the base of a planted tank, growing the plants. *


That's like saying if I did a 'Paint by Numbers' I've mastered painting. The challenge is growing different and possibly more difficult plants or creating the aesthetic of an aquascape with some sort of arrangement of certain plant/hardscape. It's much more than just "growing some plants" Amano's contribution to the planted hobby is huge and it's brought people into the hobby on the aesthetics. If he just grew plants in a glass box and took pictures I don't think the impact would have been nearly the same.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

I completely agree. 

As I said, I have "painted by numbers" and I just don't really like painting. Now I just go outside to look at grass grow.

It was very exciting... All five times... But it just dies off quick for me and I find it to get boring quickly.

Having worked at an lfs and keeping in touch and being a member on various other forums, I can tell you that other than a select few, not many people keep freshwater tanks long. Out of the thirty or so people I know who enjoy fresh water, it is not have a planted tank but angelfish lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Well, your just not into it. Nothing wrong with that you should stick to what your truly enjoy! But to say:



zchauvin said:


> Take my situation as an example,* I came back to the hobby and within a month I've already achieved everything possible.* I've grown plants, have no algae, have healthy fish, and trimmed twice now. What else is there to it??


That's never gonna go over too well, especially on an aquatic plant forum LOL


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Lol. I gotcha, I didn't mean to sound like a genius or cocky. Just saying, I grew some plants and kept some fish without all the issues (seems like 90% of threads are algae related). To me this is all a planted aquarium consists of, which obviously isn't necessarily the thoughts of other people.


But yes, I am just not into it. I didn't try to make anything personal, just tried to relate what I and many others that I personally know feel about planted tanks or freshwater in general. 

Was only trying to relate to the hobby as a whole. It's all a personal preference and hobby after all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

Bert H said:


> When I started this thread, my intent was to see what people had to contribute in ways of any significant changes to the hobby compared to 10 years ago,
> 
> Other than LED lighting perhaps?


LED lighting is a big deal IMHO.
Still in it's infancy any changing daily.
Full spectrum has been introduced and DIY projects are everywhere.
This provides a great deal of experimentation by aquarists.
Even reefers are moving to LED from MH lighting, and successfully growing corals.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

If we take the seemingly controversial statement that zchauvin posted in the context of what I thought we were discussing it is not so controversial. Are we discussing how long, how in depth or how successful one is in the hobby or are we discussing it's current level of technology?


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

BarryR said:


> If we take the seemingly controversial statement that zchauvin posted in the context of what I thought we were discussing it is not so controversial. Are we discussing how long, how in depth or how successful one is in the hobby or are we discussing it's current level of technology?


'

Based on the OPs question, I think it's about the overall state of the hobby. Which would include advancements, growth, etc. I don't think he was asking if someone achieved the 'Holy Grail' of Planted Tankdome


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> '
> 
> Based on the OPs question, I think it's about the overall state of the hobby. Which would include advancements, growth, etc. I don't think he was asking if someone achieved the 'Holy Grail' of Planted Tankdome


That's is what I thought too. However somewhere along the line it started becoming controversial and I got a bit confused. Moving on... I have to remind myself that I am attempting to mimic nature and if I adopt natures ways I am left with simplicity. All I really need is a few low tech devices to recreate the desired mechanical environment, water flow, temperature and the removal of waste and let nature do the rest. Perhaps that is why our hobby does not have or need any whizz bang devices and there is nothing wrong with the state of the hobby.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

There have been no advancements. It is dead in the water. Serious. Like I said originally, people try things, but after the addition of co2 and maybe LED lighting... Which was originally introduced into the reef scene and adopted for freshwater use because of demand... There have not been any advancements. 


Without a market demand, or money to use for research and whatnot there will not be anything new to come out. There isn't money to be made so there is no reason.

On a hobby grade level you have the whole Dolomite thread and things of that nature but I wouldn't classify that as an advancement in anyway. 

The state of the hobby is simply that it is bumping along, at what I find to be a slower and less exciting way than before. With that said, the activity on foreign blogs and within other cultures is remarkable and comparable to the reef tank interest of Florida and Australia. Tons of planted tank info out there and people more into aqua scaping than ever before. Just not here.


I'm no specialist when it comes to culture and what not but the aquarium hobby has been strong throughout my years at least, but it has never trended towards the planted or fresh side.


These statements are all merely my opinion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

BarryR said:


> * I have to remind myself that I am attempting to mimic nature* and if I adopt natures ways I am left with simplicity...


That's pretty much what Amano did, but I don't think it's that simple and I think there have been alot of changes to be able to duplicate nature in all it's glory.

In order to view nature this way we need:

Tank - Tanks have gone from having big frames to frameless and frameless low-iron so as not to obstruct the view. Even retail/big box has been starting to stock these.

Lights - As mentioned LED has been a nice advancement in it's ability be customized by duration, temp, intensity. Also the look of lights now complement the frameless setups by either being hung over the tank or being streamlined on it.

Co2- This is probably the biggest change in the fact that it's fairly mainstream in planted tanks. Co2 equipment is available everywhere. You really can't have a non-limiting setup without using pressurized co2. This was a bedrock of Amano's success to get the most out of the plants and help reduce algae under good light.

Substrate - There are several substrates that are extremely nutrient rich and you can get away for quite sometime without supplementing. Aquasoil if used correctly is a "substrate for dummies to planted tanks".

Nature Aquarium - Although not a product in it's own right, the concept changed the way many people look at planted tanks. The idea is to reduce scale of a natural setting that would duplicate it in a 2-5 foot glass box. It's a far cry from just planting different species. The incorporation of hardscape/plants to correct scale makes this possible.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> That's pretty much what Amano did, but I don't think it's that simple and I think there have been alot of changes to be able to duplicate nature in all it's glory.
> 
> In order to view nature this way we need:
> 
> ...


Since we are referring to the OPs actual question about where a new guy would start, other than having co2 (which some say you don't need) there haven't technically been any advancements what so ever.

Sure rimless tanks are pretty, but not necessary. Led is meh, while good not necessary and without co2 lends to more algae. Nature aquarium is merely a sales pitch of ADA. Substrate regardless of what you use is still the exact same thing - a nutrient rich medium for plants to root into.

Taking this into consideration - other than aesthetic purposes and merely sales efforts, has there even technically been an advancement at all?

If anything at all, the only real advancement that was originated and not adopted, for planted tank use was making substrates better - in terms of not falling apart over time and not dirtying the water column.

Even Amano hit a wall before his passing, as sad as that was.

For the last few years all of the aquascapes have been the exact same or very similar. Check out ADAView videos, 4 years of similarity with only the slightest changes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

You don't need a lot of things. You didn't read my post very well. If you want a non-limiting setup you need co2. Of course you can have a planted tank without it, but it will be limited by plant species and growth rate. 

Of course rimless tanks aren't necessary but the whole idea for many is to not see equipment. That would include the rim of the tank. I do this for the look (looks like you were too, based on all the ADA stuff your selling) If you didn't care about that stuff why did you buy so much ADA product.

You could say Nature Aquarium is a sales pitch. But as I mentioned it's taking it to the right scale that makes some of the tanks look so good. There's a huge difference to me not seeing equipment in a aquascape vs one that you see filter tubes, heaters, rims, etc. None of it's needed to grow plants but why would I just want to grow plants unless I'm a farmer LOL

BTW Saltwater including FO, FOWLR and Reef are only in about 2-3% of hhlds in the US. Freshwater is in around 12-13%. So if you talk about a small niche it's Saltwater.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Lol. Yeah I guess. I don't think any of the aquarium hobby advancements have actually helped the planted tank community in anyway what so ever. Most are merely just updates fashion wise to appeal to modernization. As you just stated, I am 100% a testament of that. I buy things based on looks, while all of this stuff is more modern, none of it gives benefit to the planted tank hobby as a whole.


Substrate and co2 are pretty much the only things that have substantially effected the hobby positively.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

Okay so there may not be much in the way of new technology specifically for fresh water planted aquariums. However there are technologies that can be used to automate our systems. We could even monitor and control everything from anywhere in the world using a table or smartphone. Re-purposing technology designed for other things can be used in the fresh water planted aquarium hobby and bring it into the 21st century.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

BarryR said:


> Okay so there may not be much in the way of new technology specifically for fresh water planted aquariums. However there are technologies that can be used to automate our systems. We could even monitor and control everything from anywhere in the world using a table or smartphone. Re-purposing technology designed for other things can be used in the fresh water planted aquarium hobby and bring it into the 21st century.


What would you like to see automated?


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

Just about everything could be automated. Light levels, water changes, water levels, feeding, dosing, temperature control, flow rates, reminders when the filter media needs to be changed, alarms when it detects faults in the system. It can all be done with a programmable logic controller and some simple support hardware and sensors.

Say for instance you decided to go for the ultimate system that is able to send you information via the internet. Your at work and get an alert that something is wrong with your water levels. So you look at the tank via the web cam you installed and noticed a leak in your tank. You could react to such an emergency immediately. Welcome to 21st century aquarium keeping.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Barry, most of what you just said is currently available. Apex pops in my mind. 

Reef guys have been using controllers for years now. Can read ammonia levels, ph levels, control co2 input, lights, pumps, aeration, water changes, fert dosing, feeding fish, ect. This can all be adopted from reef keeping side of the aquarium hobby.

Other than trimming plants and cleaning glass it can all be done hands free. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

zchauvin said:


> Barry, most of what you just said is currently available. Apex pops in my mind.
> 
> Reef guys have been using controllers for years now. Can read ammonia levels, ph levels, control co2 input, lights, pumps, aeration, water changes, fert dosing, feeding fish, ect. This can all be adopted from reef keeping side of the aquarium hobby.
> 
> ...


I am aware of the Apex. I am a retired Automation engineer and looking at a little more towards a DIY approach which would be a little cheaper.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

BarryR said:


> I am aware of the Apex. I am a *retired Automation engineer *and looking at a little more towards a DIY approach which would be a little cheaper.


O.K. now I get it. Your interested in advancements in Automation. There are plenty of advancements not all automated. BTW most people have 10-20 gallon aquariums and you mentioned above a good reason why you don't see more of it - COST. You yourself would go DIY as well.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> O.K. now I get it. Your interested in advancements in Automation. There are plenty of advancements not all automated. BTW most people have 10-20 gallon aquariums and you mentioned above a good reason why you don't see more of it - COST. You yourself would go DIY as well.


A single 10 to 20 gallon is too small to justify the cost unless you have the parts laying around doing nothing.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

BarryR said:


> A single 10 to 20 gallon is too small to justify the cost unless you have the parts laying around doing nothing.


Well yes, that's the point I'm making the bulk of freshwater planted tanks are that size. As it stands you have set and forget temp, lighting, co2 (probably missing a few), built within the product that are cost effective even for a 10-20. Add to that nutrient rich fertilizer and there really isn't much to do but change some water (which you can automate and trim the plants)


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Well yes, that's the point I'm making the bulk of freshwater planted tanks are that size. As it stands you have set and forget temp, lighting, co2 (probably missing a few), built within the product that are cost effective even for a 10-20. Add to that nutrient rich fertilizer and there really isn't much to do but change some water (which you can automate and trim the plants)


Knowing this I suppose that a system such as i described would not be needed in this area of the aquarium hobby unless you have multiple tanks with a centralized system that manages them all.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Going back to the original post:

I had not seen this thread until yesterday. Funny thing just the other day I told someone that all planted tank forums are now dead. I see that many of us see the same thing - the hobby has stagnated. Or has it?

3 things have led to this sorry state of affairs of the US hobby:

1. American culture
Overall we are superficial, want everything fast, worship celebrities.
That mindset does not work well with the Asian mindset of following and endlessly repeating the works of a guru.

2. ADA
This is a business. Its goal is profit. There is no vision toward a lofty or true aesthetic ideal.
Everything that they did and do "for the hobby" was with the business goal in mind.
In 2007 the visually appealing aquascapes were reduced to the basic layouts. The company had established itself as the leading outfit in this niche market. What followed was business as usual - repeating a formula that works well. Amano went on endless tours aquascaping live the same layout over and over - the cardboard, AquaSoil on the back, and white sand everywhere else.
(On a personal note - during that time I started to believe that Amano had lost his vigor. The goals had been achieved, he was now a spent cult figure that had served its purpose. I thought that way because somehow on internet pictures he seemed different from years past. Didn't look like the same lively guy. He looked old and yes, bored. Part of me believes that some of that brought his end.)

3. The internet
There is the real side of this hobby and there is the internet side. 
The internet hobby is readily available, requires little effort, provides grounds for a dynamic virtual experience that is, by default, far from the real experience.
Experienced hobbyists and people that stick with the hobby revert to the real life hobby.

The above 3 worked together to lead us to this day, today. One recent accessory detail gave a boost to the decline - Amano's passing away. Look at items 1 and 3 above - the state of the US hobby was like and easy prediction of the stock market - yes, it will drop down. The cult figure, known to many from the internet, had gone away. The fast mindset wanted a substitute within days but it could not be found. Interest and activity decrease. The internet starts to cycle the old layouts even faster - in all kinds of social media, from all kinds of "new" aquascaping "artists".

Of course there are other reasons for this decline in internet activity. But to me the main one is the fact that the iconic driver for the revival of this hobby - ADA - has no higher goals than corporate profits. Its attractive shine was lost a long time ago. Only newbies fall for the setups that we have all seen at least 10 years ago. These aquascapes are heavily promoted on the internet by the ever growing number of ADA distributors - repeating the magic formula over and over. It is hard to say that tanks like the ones in the video below are worn out cliches and mere money making products but that is the truth:





So to "plus" this pessimistic overview - to suggest a look forward - I'd say that I do not think we have answered all questions as one of the previous posters said. And I do not think that it is impossible to learn it all in 2 months as another poster said. In real life the hobby is as alive as it has always been. It's either an active local club, or individuals you know that still have the interest and excitement about planted tanks that got them in the hobby in the first place. Or, for you, personally - an appreciation of the sights in your own tank that you start to see as independent from any artificial notions and norms.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ah yes!

The removal of organics. That was a few months ago. The idea was to tackle one huge unknown factor that we all have in each one of our tanks - organics. The less unknowns the better the understanding, no need to say that. But for more than a decade now we have ignored that simple logic. It also applies to accumulation of nutrients in the tank - something that we love to think that is handled by water changes because of a cute nerd calculation and chart we saw years ago.

After using lots of resin to remove organics I have now seen how reducing the organics to basically nothing (the resin did not accumulate barely anything) lead to a bacterial bloom from all things. The tank decided to "do the right thing". I could say that I made that happen by relieving the system from unneeded organics. But that could be as true as it could be false. In the old days the yellow water that nowadays we think is a curse was desireable. And tanks had way less algae than today.

So, after the organics reactor, 2 months later, after I let the tank run its course, I have an apparently very stable tank with some kind of strange efficiency to use nutrients. Long story short - Swords make one fully developed 27" long leaf every 2-3 days without any fertilizers added to the water, worn out root tabs, minimal CO2, and... 25W of light over a 2' deep 180 gallon tank. We have all questions answered Ukamikadzu said... I don't think so. 27" long, 3" wide, super healthy leaves under 25W of light... what is there more to understand?

I have gone back to what I posted years ago - the planted tank MUST BE viewed as an imperfect ecosystem. When and if you allow this ecosystem to develop the tank enters a new state. One in which Nature runs the tank and you only take care of minor details. Including aquascaping to your heart's desire if you wish. All that has to do with the microorganism populations in the tank and their impact on everything that we try to artificially control ourselves - fertilizer use, organics removal, flow, light, you name it. "The planted tank as a permaculture system" - topic that we never discuss. The development of steps toward establishing such tanks every time is something I have and will be working on. With little regard to the sad clown internet circus, mind you,


----------



## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

I am fortuante to have found APC and the Walstad Method / NPT philosophy right at the start of my version of this hobby. Just about everything I know I've learned here since 2009.

Since this thread started, I have been mulling over how to make a useful contribution to the discussion... here are some thoughts.

1. What is "state of the hobby"? Number of active participants is probably the best measure, but the harderst to measure. Aggregate sales data from industry sources would be indicative, but not definitive. We don't spend the same amount of money in the beginning, middle, and later stages of our hobby -- except perhaps on renewables like food, fish(?), and Seachem Prime 

2. Personal anecdotes about what is going on on the internet are always misleading. It's too big a place. Instead, check out quantitative data like Google search traffic comparison for "freshwater aquarium", "saltwater aquarium", "reef tank", and whatever else you think is relevant -- even with caveats, some conclusions can be drawn. This particular set seems to show a steady-state of interest in freshwater vs. salt water. _Salt water is not going up while freshwater is not going down._

3. As others have said, we mightn't expect a steady stream of methodological advances in a hobby whose goal is mostly to recreate nature on a limited scale. In most realms, advances come in fits and spurts and aren't a good indicator of the "state" of something.

4. The "plant deficiencies" infographic and the substrate prep infographics that were first done here at APC are the most significant work I've seen since 2009. Significant in terms of the potential beneficial impact. More material like that and more visibility for it would have more impact on the this hobby than anything else, I think.

People who visit my house get the "it's a balanced mini ecosystem" concept immediately, and are intrigued by the idea of trading plant pruning for mucking out the tanks of their youth. I don't yet have a "getting started" guide to hand them though I have made some drafts. I show them all Walstad's book, but so far only one person (a pre-teen at that!) has found it approachable.

We still have good work ahead of us to codify the best practices and body of knowledge in a way that's accessible to more people, and more beginners.


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

People were keeping aquarium plants in 1850. People are keeping aquarium plants in 2016. The state of the hobby is A-OK.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"So if someone were going to start from scratch and wanted to know what the 'best way' was to set up a planted tank, what would you tell them?"

Obiquiet takes us back to this original question. I would tell a beginner that the Walstad method (or some variant of it) is the best way to set up a planted tank. Not because Walstad is magic, or because it is the only way, or because it is the best way for advanced hobbyists who want to explore all aspects of the hobby.

Walstad is best for beginners because it teaches patience and how to work in cooperation with principles of freshwater ecology. You didn't first learn to drive a car in a Ferrari. As Niko says, you learn to manage an imperfect copy of an ecosystem, a permaculture system, a sustainable system. You learn how much to help it, how much to leave it alone, and how much you can alter it for your own purposes before it falls apart.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

Michael said:


> "So if someone were going to start from scratch and wanted to know what the 'best way' was to set up a planted tank, what would you tell them?"
> 
> Obiquiet takes us back to this original question. I would tell a beginner that the Walstad method (or some variant of it) is the best way to set up a planted tank. Not because Walstad is magic, or because it is the only way, or because it is the best way for advanced hobbyists who want to explore all aspects of the hobby.
> 
> Walstad is best for beginners because it teaches patience and how to work in cooperation with principles of freshwater ecology. You didn't first learn to drive a car in a Ferrari. As Niko says, you learn to manage an imperfect copy of an ecosystem, a permaculture system, a sustainable system. You learn how much to help it, how much to leave it alone, and how much you can alter it for your own purposes before it falls apart.


This is exactly what I did. If one is patient and understands how the Walstad method works success is likely. Common sense helps too.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

It's like we've come full circle. I blame Niko and his Socratic method .

While there are a great deal of unknown, they are known unknowns. We've got the big points nailed down, now it's time to start addressing the other trillion or so subatomic sized variables. I shared Niko's view for many many years and tried to develop my own methods only to realize that all I had to do was stop touching my tanks every few hours and let the system take it's course, seeing to the needs of the animals and sometimes topping up the water level.

It is interesting. After about 3 years, all my tanks developed their own soil cycle. I don't even do water changes anymore, not for the last 4 years anyway. I also curtailed the obsession with testing unless I have a great need to know something specific. This is almost nonexistent in me now and I'm glad to be rid of it.

Perhaps it's like university, yes? I hear so many great engineers, scientists and even mathematicians say how they really don't use much of what they learned at school to do what they do, instead relying on their creativity. Their intellectual hunger, even. New folks come in, they pay the lab fees & tuition by posting, debating and experimenting then they graduate, start a tank using an idea they had on their own and realize how all the rest was just details.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

brwaldbaum said:


> People were keeping aquarium plants in 1850. People are keeping aquarium plants in 2016. The state of the hobby is A-OK.


That reminds me of a funny little article I wrote on my vanity site. If you'd like a read to pass the time, please be my guest:

Are Planted Aquarists Antiquarian?


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

ukamikazu said:


> It's like we've come full circle. I blame Niko and his Socratic method .
> 
> While there are a great deal of unknown, they are known unknowns. We've got the big points nailed down, now it's time to start addressing the other trillion or so subatomic sized variables. I shared Niko's view for many many years and tried to develop my own methods only to realize that all I had to do was stop touching my tanks every few hours and let the system take it's course, seeing to the needs of the animals and sometimes topping up the water level.
> 
> ...


I am at the beginning of this quest. Now that I have an established Aquarium such as it is (1 gallon Walstad bowl). I find the need to do what you have done, let it develop without constant interference. For me this is especially important because it is such a small environment that any mistake can be devastating. I am encouraged by my meager results because the bowl does not seem to need water changes as there are no toxins to remove. But is it really possible to create a long term self sustaining eco system that recycles itself where every chemical and biological need is met without the introduction of anything besides food, top off water and light? If so then have we reached that point in our understanding of nature to reliably create such systems without a little luck?


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

ukamikazu said:


> It's like we've come full circle. I blame Niko and his Socratic method .
> 
> While there are a great deal of unknown, they are known unknowns. We've got the big points nailed down, now it's time to start addressing the other trillion or so subatomic sized variables. I shared Niko's view for many many years and tried to develop my own methods only to realize that all I had to do was stop touching my tanks every few hours and let the system take it's course, seeing to the needs of the animals and sometimes topping up the water level.
> 
> ...


Haha! This bit "..only to realize that all I had to do was stop touching my tanks every few hours and let the system take it's course, seeing to the needs of the animals and sometimes topping up the water level...." is all there is to know, haha!

That's why I said that I do believe you can "learn it all" in a very short time. Once again - the internet just freaking makes you "do stuff" in your tank because it seems like everybody is always doing something in their tanks. I compare the weekly water changes with me coming to your house every Wednesday to paint the entire freaking house. After some time you will hate living there. But, hey, it will look beautiful all the damn time! 

The result of too much knowledge is often a special kind of stupidity. The easiest example is experts having such specialized tastes and preferences that there is no connection to the real world. In this hobby the half-donkey internet science has lead to a peculiar mix of knowledge and utter ignorance. All so far from what happens in Nature that it is no surprise that some people just leave this circus. After all we did not come in this hobby attracted to fertilizers, LEDs, boring iwagumis, and motley internet forums. It was something like a quiet creek, or a sight of underwater plant leaves, a gentle movement. Not pixels on a screen for sure.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

ObiQuiet said:


> I am fortuante to have found APC and the Walstad Method / NPT philosophy right at the start of my version of this hobby. Just about everything I know I've learned here since 2009.
> 
> Since this thread started, I have been mulling over how to make a useful contribution to the discussion... here are some thoughts.
> 
> ...


Geez! That was like.. intelligent or something. A super rate thing to see on any planted tank forum. Seriosuly.

My problem with a traffic monitoring is that yes, you can see a lot of activity, cheer and shoot fireworks, but for god's sake - what is the quality of this activity? On planted tank forums the activity is like a kindergarten noise - lots of it and very chaotic, often with a suspicious smell... It's mainly screaming for the sake of screaming. Check out the thread below if you care - about 14K views to this day but if you actually read some of the pages you will learn nothing, absolutely nothing. I've stopped following the thread but last time I did there was not a single person that made an argument worth dealing with. Call me arrogant but I put out a bunch of very useful information and links and all I got was 5-year old brat reactions. For Google 14K views of some forum topic is "lots of activity" I guess:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...lizers-pictures-extremely-healthy-plants.html

Some years ago someone told me "You can't look at the competition and worry. Just do your thing." I guess that rings true in many other ways - for example what is going on in the internet side of the planted tank hobby. I see that some people have both come to the understanding of how to setup a balanced tank AND actually stayed on the forums in some way or another. That's a good thing. To me that is the future of this hobby. Not endless pictures of worn out ADA aquascape copies.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

niko said:


> Geez! That was like.. intelligent or something. A super rate thing to see on any planted tank forum. Seriosuly.
> 
> My problem with a traffic monitoring is that yes, you can see a lot of activity, cheer and shoot fireworks, but for god's sake - what is the quality of this activity? On planted tank forums the activity is like a kindergarten noise - lots of it and very chaotic, often with a suspicious smell... It's mainly screaming for the sake of screaming. Check out the thread below if you care - about 14K views to this day but if you actually read some of the pages you will learn nothing, absolutely nothing. I've stopped following the thread but last time I did there was not a single person that made an argument worth dealing with. Call me arrogant but I put out a bunch of very useful information and links and all I got was 5-year old brat reactions. For Google 14K views of some forum topic is "lots of activity" I guess:
> 
> ...


I agree on the whole pages and pages of activity with nothing to do with the topic, much less provide any kind of actual information.

I'm still trying to figure out what since co2 introduction has been helpful to the planted tank hobby..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

BarryR said:


> I am at the beginning of this quest. Now that I have an established Aquarium such as it is (1 gallon Walstad bowl). I find the need to do what you have done, let it develop without constant interference. For me this is especially important because it is such a small environment that any mistake can be devastating. I am encouraged by my meager results because the bowl does not seem to need water changes as there are no toxins to remove. But is it really possible to create a long term self sustaining eco system that recycles itself where every chemical and biological need is met without the introduction of anything besides food, top off water and light? If so then have we reached that point in our understanding of nature to reliably create such systems without a little luck?


You are not the only one. Most of us, with years of experience in this hobby, are where you are 

Yes, it is possible to create a self-sustaining ecosystem. No, it won't be perfect. But look at what has happened in your own little tank - things have started to click together by themselves. That means that it is possible to do certain things to allow for that to happen. And moreover - to actually take that further - allowing to use the best of both worlds - stability, predictability, and no limits on what and how you want to grow.

I will never understand how the so called "high demand" plants make it in Nature. There is nobody to make sure there is excess light and nutrients at all times, nobody to constantly change the water, to jack up the CO2 to 30ppm. There must be subtle factors and states that allow these plants to exist in Nature. These factors and states are found in the so called "low tech" tanks. I do believe that it is possible to use these conditions as the foundation for a different kind of planted tank - one that is not low tech but it is not high tech "ICU patient" that needs constant drip of nutrients.

One of the ways I have been experimenting with is very simple. I did things like that years ago - very, very gradually increase all the nutrients, light, CO2. And make sure they are not excessive never, ever. The result of such approach is a tank that has had time to establish ITSELF gradually. *It is a different kind of tank - not forced to happen but rather supported to develop itself.* That sounded beautiful, didn't it?  Joke or not - I think it makes sense to anybody that has dealt with forced planted tank beauty.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

To save some related information I'm posting a link to it here:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/...k-care-and-lake-restoration-techniques.41747/


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

I don't think there have been more/bigger advancements with equipment because there's nothing else you can really do. I think the new over-engineered filters like the G6 look inferior to the canister-style .. cylinder-style canisters like Eheim classics. 

The twinstar is a neat little device but who knows if Electrolysis does anything. It seems to have really taken off, especially in europe. I have one in my sump because I like gadgets. It probably doesn't do anything. 

Purigen is a big deal, I think, but it has been out for a long time. 

ZChauvin helped me set up my apex (well, he did it for me lol) and I bought the fancy stuff that I don't need because I wanted it, but knowing my PAR or ORP at any given time isn't necessary and I only like it so I can look at patterns and trends. That's my inner biologist I guess. I like gadgets. 

I bought some reactors and ozone generator and whatnot. Whenever I was trying to adapt it to freshwater use and brought it up I just got shot down with "you don't need that" at best and silence at worse. No brainstorming or anything on the use of mazzei injectors or needle wheel impellors to make it work better. I miss Nikos 20-page long threads. 

So I've got my reactors and probes and an Ozone setup that may or may not do anything at all and I have an unnecessarily high tech tank an I love it, and it's doing great, but I haven't felt the need to make a journal or anything. Not when it would go un-noticed and people would ask why I didn't just a second hand Eheim instead of wasting money on an ADA ES-2400 and the journal right above it is getting ooh's and aah's because they made a little bonsai-looking tree with some moss and super glue with a blue sky background that looks tacky as hell to be honest. Meanwhile there would be two pages (if I'm lucky) of people arguing with each other about how stupidly expensive ADA filters are. 

Seems like most journals are advertisements for ADA for some reason. Anyone else notice this? As far as cookie-cutter cliche ADA scapes go, I've yet to make one so I am not sure how cookie-cutter they are. I have given up trying to duplicate him and his staff. I have gone back to ADA-style DIY fertilizers and stopped with the E.I. method and massive water changes. It was labor intensive and gave me the worst results imaginable. Sometimes I wonder if people who have success with it are lying. I have an almost algae-free tank, fast growing plants, one of the easiest startups of any tank so far. I am 100% certain is has nothing to do with my fancy unnecessary equipment but more to do with me chilling out a little and letting the tank do it's thing. Mostly because it's the biggest one I've had so far and I'm lazy. Not dumping stupid amounts of nutrient salts and doing massive water changes whether it needs it or not. I still can't keep shrimp alive for more than a day, though. 

I would be lying if I said I didn't buy with intentions to future-proof my aquarium for saltwater use if I ever get tired with freshwater, although I don't plan on it. Having done basic SW w/LPS I think fresh planted is much more challenging. But probably because we don't have the equipment that makes SW easier.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

The advancements that need to be made at this point IMO are more cultural than scientific. Sure you can setup a tank following the laws of nature and try to make it self sustaining but it will always be limited to certain plants and setups. These are closed systems and they need our help to be NON-LIMITING. 

The biggest problem is the organic load we carry in our tanks. This of course can vary by light, co2, plant mass, etc. Most people getting into the hobby are not as disciplined as they are elsewhere to change water, trim, etc. to keep a problem free tank. The hobby in Asia is more focused and entrenched then it is here. 

Amano was not a rocket scientist nor is Oliver Knott and a ton of other aquascapers or healthy plant growers. They are more disciplined.

I've been around a while and learned much right here on APC. Used to test everything, now I test nothing. I change my water every week, dose toward high-end of EI so nothing runs short, do 10-minute tidys (trim, quick cleanups, etc.) and make sure co2/light is good for the setup and the rest takes care of itself. I have pretty much zero issues growing plants, rearranging them and keeping algae invisible for the most part.

There is simply a cultural difference, similar to soccer to american football. That's just the way it is. PH.D not required.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

I think that I have learned more from this thread than any other I have read. I started talking about automation and technology only to discover that nature already provides most of these functions. I had it all wrong, we don't really need anything high tech. I can't contribute anything meaningful to the question "what is the state of the hobby" because I am relatively new to it. But I suspect that as some have mentioned, it is just fine.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

zchauvin said:


> ...I'm still trying to figure out what since co2 introduction has been helpful to the planted tank hobby..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, so true. Just today I was asking someone to imagine that a certain well known American guru never existed. What would be different? Nothing. Because even this amazing super-duper guru has contributed but a tiny bit to the overall... lack of good understanding what is happening in the glass box. Well, when I think of it actually some things would be different - the size of the "Algae" sub forum for example. Today I went back to 2006 and read the original EI sticky that you can read right too if you wish. See how it sounds to you today. You may find you are laughing out loud at the simplistic assumptions and advice.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned ADA and CO2... But truth is that CO2 was used back in 1962 by some Dutch aquarists. I do not know in what fashion. But I do know that ADA would make you feel that they invented everything planted tank. And spare you the real details how it all works. Not something I admire.


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

STOP bashing on me Niko! I am no guru, i never claimed to be, you push me down, hammer some nails into my back and what more do you want SIR!!!??


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Stop stalking me! If I catch you I will tear off your goatie off your ugl-ey face!


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Back to the thread. Apologize for the unexpected disruption 

Here. Tank with 100+ PAR at the substrate. CO2 is what he says he is. Nobody lies on the internet. But we all know better - high light tanks require high nutrients, high CO2, and... internet connection:

https://classicalaquascaping.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/how-much-co2-is-necessary/


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

niko said:


> Stop stalking me! If I catch you I will tear off your goatie off your ugl-ey face!


There you go again...First off I do not have a goatee!



> Back to the thread. Apologize for the unexpected disruption
> 
> Here. Tank with 100+ PAR at the substrate. CO2 is what he says he is. Nobody lies on the internet. But we all know better - high light tanks require high nutrients, high CO2, and... internet connection:
> 
> https://classicalaquascaping.wordpre...-is-necessary/


I'll stop stalking if you stop linking to my friends expertise's


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

And there you have it ladies and Gentlemen. Planted Tank Fireworks!


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

House, you didn't comment on the links I posted before we started joking. Same thing on the long TPT thread in which you said absolutely nothing but over and over typed random characters as "responses". Now you comment on that late night ridiculous insider jokes. What do you want me to think of you? The world, nothing less. Right? Believe me I do.

I'd send you some links that one can not publish on any of these amazing forums. New and valuable information. Exactly what this thread is all about. Some people are not posting on amazing forums but actually doing something progressive. But then... why send you anything? We're having good ol' fun here as it is.

Let's see if APC can take the above. Used to be as soon as you mentioned anything controversial your post evaporated. But today we have many a ads all over here. Not as many as TPT but close. That kinda changes the approach. "Controversial" maybe good nowaday$.


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

I'm just along for the ride.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

niko said:


> Back to the thread. Apologize for the unexpected disruption
> 
> Here. Tank with 100+ PAR at the substrate. CO2 is what he says he is. Nobody lies on the internet. But we all know better - high light tanks require high nutrients, high CO2, and... internet connection:
> 
> https://classicalaquascaping.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/how-much-co2-is-necessary/


I have slowly come to this conclusion as well...dropped my CO2, dropped my ferts. Never quite had the guts to not fertilize at all. But...


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

niko said:


> Back to the thread. Apologize for the unexpected disruption
> 
> Here. Tank with 100+ PAR at the substrate. CO2 is what he says he is. Nobody lies on the internet. But we all know better - high light tanks require high nutrients, high CO2, and... internet connection:
> 
> https://classicalaquascaping.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/how-much-co2-is-necessary/


I just don't understand how that's possible. It boggles my mind. Maybe it is worth trying? Maybe I could keep shrimp alive for more than a few hours.

Niko, I am dosing 10 ml's of 3:1:1 tsp CSN+B: DPTA FE: Gluconate Fe (per liter) each day on my 90-P with similar plant types and mass to the linked aquarium. Do you think this is too much? I was using ten ml's ADA ferts but they go too fast in a tank this size.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

JustLikeAPill said:


> Niko, I am dosing 10 ml's of 3:1:1 CSN+B: DPTA FE: Gluconate Fe (per liter) each day on my 90-P with similar plant types and mass to the linked aquarium. Do you think this is too much? I was using ten ml's ADA ferts but they go too fast in a tank this size.


Once toxicity issues were expressed by many, I cut way back.
CSM+B & FE 10% from 3.5ml to .5ml in my 40 gallon long. (3x per week)
Even let CO2 dwindle down to 12-20ppm, tested by degassing mind you.

Macro's I still test and dose based on monthly testing.

To be honest plants are looking better and new growth is rampant.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

Is it fair to say that so far, now that we are 7 or 8 pages in, that we are talking about two complicated things:

1. The technological state of the hobby

...and...

2. The cultural & philosophical state of the hobby

A strong belief in one one camp that could be called a minority opinion that less is better. Not Luddites by any means, but those that see a glass box full of water weeds as something that should be regarded more like a lake or pond; A closed system with certain natural inputs that should be considered individually and only sparingly modified and concordant as possible to how natural water bodies behave. A true self contained ecosystem. Permaculture is an excellent word for them. Very hands off.

...and...

And the almost technocratic majority who look at it like farming or gardening where yields are to be controlled and costs managed. Production and presentation through any and all means necessary. A very advanced and human view but not without its own challenges. Sustainability is possible but it requires constant monitoring and tends to be, in the long run, resource intensive. Resource management is a good phrase here. Very hands on.

Is this an accurate summary at this point? The state of the hobby be must certainly be an intersection of technology & culture. So far we've been presenting in a rather binary way, this or that, A or B, black or white, etc. What unites us instead? What brings us together? What tools & methods do we have in common? What does the Venn diagram look like? Should we aim for that? What proportion of art to science can we agree on?


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

ukamikazu said:


> Is it fair to say that so far, now that we are 7 or 8 pages in, that we are talking about two complicated things:
> 
> 1. The technological state of the hobby
> 
> ...


Nailed the battle. What about hybrid types? I'm guessing you favor the second the way you worded it.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

I am in fact the first type, but I used to be the second. I tend to worry these days more on,"What is the appropriate amount of light for a more naturalistic hands off system?" followed by "How do I take advantage of the competition for waste products in the tank without upending the whole apple cart?"

Niko was very much inspirational for this. These are questions I'm still considering after almost a decade and I have yet to implement anything radical because I seem to have a good thing going or at least for the last 4 years or so.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

I just want to chime in and ask because I've been reading the post as they come... 

So are you guys just wanting a tank, without having to do anything with it? I keep getting the gist, from the last few posts, that you want a high light tank and co2, but without having to mess with it. So like, implement no husbandry and a low tech setup but with high tech results? A self sustaining, super stable, high growth, high health, no work type of tank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

ukamikazu said:


> The state of the hobby be must certainly be an intersection of technology & culture. So far we've been presenting in a rather binary way, this or that, A or B, black or white, etc. What unites us instead?


This is a good point -- unity in our interests in plants and fish and water and aquascaping as an activity. And in understanding how things work.

And, I don't think the goal is that everyone to pursue those interests the same way. Instead, I think our goal should be to make sure people who share the interest are aware of what we know and what exists.

Analogy: If we were painters (which we kind of are), we would not insist that everyone who wants to paint should paint realistic landscapes ala Thomas Gainsbourough and not cubist landscapes like Picasso did, or vice-versa.

I think we would want people to be aware of all the styles that are possible, and we would want to be able to communicate what we like about one style and how to succeed at it. We might like people to learn from watching other techniques, and create new blended styles.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

zchauvin said:


> I just want to chime in and ask because I've been reading the post as they come...
> 
> So are you guys just wanting a tank, without having to do anything with it? I keep getting the gist, from the last few posts, that you want a high light tank and co2, but without having to mess with it. So like, implement no husbandry and a low tech setup but with high tech results? A self sustaining, super stable, high growth, high health, no work type of tank.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When you put it that way, it sounds like you're asking, "Are you questing for the Holy Grail?" 
Such a quest is, of course, ridiculous though it is good to stop consider what you want.

Answering for myself, I want technical mastery and understanding such that I could have this simple, hands off fantasy tank. I think it is more difficult to pull off because it requires much more scientific knowledge and the ability to sit on your hands and observe over the long run. Anyone who is an engineer, especially if they work in QA, might understand the sentiment more intuitively. The idea is to create or tweak until an elegant & robust solution emerges.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

I completely agree that it would be nice and all but I don't think it's feasible. I do not have nearly the experience as you guys, but I can tell you I have had to monitor my tanks daily whether my first tank or this last tank. As much as the idea is appealing, I'm not sure it's possible. While my tanks have never been a hassle, it was never just a sit back and relax type of ordeal, even when I had a super simple average joe planted tank. 


I don't think I understand what you mean by technical mastery and what not and I surely don't want to sound cocky or anything. As I had said at beginning of this thread, I was able to have a system, while not old, that didn't really have the issues that are common with most tanks, especially new. I fed the fish daily, and added fertilizers. 

I feel as though, technical mastery and what not would be - sufficient light, sufficient co2, and sufficient nutrients for growth. Past this the only other thing separating a normal balanced system whether young or old and a fantasy tank are water changes. 

When you think of a river system or anything like that you have either algae, constant fresh water, or both. These act in nature as a water change and nutrient export. Perhaps if we want a perfect system and hands off, a drip system and a sump with algae would be the closest to replicating a truly hands off self sustaining system. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

ObiQuiet said:


> This is a good point -- unity in our interests in plants and fish and water and aquascaping as an activity. And in understanding how things work.
> 
> And, I don't think the goal is that everyone to pursue those interests the same way. Instead, I think our goal should be to make sure people who share the interest are aware of what we know and what exists.
> 
> ...


Yet any artist will tell you there are a few, just a very few, diamond absolutes when it comes to fundamentals like color theory, perspective, proportion, a little chemistry. I see it like poetry which is also an art. There is a very tiny number of "rules" but the incredible swathe of expression that's possible is astronomical in the variations. That's what a tiny rule set gets you: Maximum creativity.

Great analogy, Obi.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

zchauvin said:


> I completely agree that it would be nice and all but I don't think it's feasible. I do not have nearly the experience as you guys, but I can tell you I have had to monitor my tanks daily whether my first tank or this last tank. As much as the idea is appealing, I'm not sure it's possible. While my tanks have never been a hassle, it was never just a sit back and relax type of ordeal, even when I had a super simple average joe planted tank.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I may make one point, it would be that you can come close, Niko and I believe we have in our own tanks but it takes time. I will stand in a court of law and assert that such a tank requires 3 years to really get going. I say this because that's how long it took for my last experiment to start its own soil cycle like what we see on terra firma. Just the right amount of wastes, being consumed and reduced to some oxidized minerals and inorganic acids constantly recycling. Just top off the water and feed the fish liberally. I admit, this is a gross oversimplification and of course I haven't gathered data as reliably as I should so it can only be taken as personal anecdote at best. Mea culpa. I think you see where I'm going, though: Take your time, be patient, be observant and keep your mind open but not so much that it falls out .


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

ukamikazu said:


> If I may make one point, it would be that you can come close, Niko and I believe we have in our own tanks but it takes time. I will stand in a court of law and assert that such a tank requires 3 years to really get going. I say this because that's how long it took for my last experiment to start its own soil cycle like what we see on terra firma. Just the right amount of waists, being consumed and reduced to some oxidized minerals and inorganic acids constantly recycling. Just top off the water and feed the fish liberally. I admit, this is a gross oversimplification and of course I haven't gathered data as reliably as I should so it can only be taken as personal anecdote at best. Mea culpa. I think you see where I'm going, though: Take your time, be patient, be observant and keep your mind open but not so much that it falls out .


I guess I understand. I try, but I have never had a planted tank this long, even tanks I've seen that have been setup for years still needed maintenance. While none are heavily planted and co2 injected and so on, they are I guess somewhat self sustained. These were large koi tanks and semi planted tank at a hospital I worked out. Canister filter cleaning every so many months was about it.

But - and a big but.

The fish were not remotely healthy and the same can be said for the tank in general. Hard green algae, dying plants, plants with severe deficiencies, BBA, and so on.

Surely they were low maintenance, but nothing to show off for sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

Everyone says they want a nature/natural looking aquarium, but what they really want is hyperreality. Nature doesn't look very much like our aquariums. Our aquariums look like what we imagine nature to be (or that's the goal.) Even in the most pristine co2-supersaturated lakes where the plants grow great there is detritus and algae everywhere. Nature kind of looks like crap a lot of the time. When it comes to lakes, more often than not. Think of the Amazon river. It looks like crap and you can't even see through the water. And we have Amazonas magazine to inspire us and processed Amazonia aquasoil to make our little disney lands of nature. We worry about japanese traditional zen garden techniques then triple dose with glutaraldehyde. I used to use that in histology; it's great at making microscope slides and crosslinking proteins. And we dump it into our "nature aquariums." Kind of silly. Ada uses Bamboo vinegar that the bacteria can process after it kills BBA.

I have thought about the concepts of hyperreality and aquascaping a lot throughout the years. You might find it an interesting subject.



> "Italian author Umberto Eco explores the notion of hyperreality further by suggesting that the action of hyperreality is to desire reality and in the attempt to achieve that desire, to fabricate a false reality that is to be consumed as real.[3] Linked to contemporary western culture Umberto Eco and post-structuralists would argue, that in current cultures fundamental ideals are built on desire and particular sign-systems.
> 
> Hyperreality can also be thought of as "reality by proxy"; simply put, an individual takes on someone else's version of reality and claims it as his or her own. "


http://mediacrit.wikifoundry.com/page/Hyperreality:+The+Authentic+Fake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreality

You know, I don't like any of the top placing aquascapes. Well, very very few. They look bizarre and unsustainable from a practical perspective. You can tell they were made for the money shot. Some are very kitsch to me and tacky.



> "Consumerism, because of its reliance on sign exchange value (e.g. brand X shows that one is fashionable, car Y indicates one's wealth), could be seen as a contributing factor in the creation of hyperreality or the hyperreal condition. Hyperreality tricks consciousness into detaching from any real emotional engagement, instead opting for artificial simulation, and endless reproductions of fundamentally empty appearance. "


----Does this not remind anyone of the Amano-worship (more pics of silver ADA boxes than plants... wtf?!) and aquascapes that all look the same? If I see one more mediocre Iwagumi so help me.... Even Amano's Iwagumi looked stale towards the end. A lot of his stuff did, I thought but never said.


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

I tell you guys the state of the hobby and what some are trying to achieve this so called balance of bacteria in which the system is so stable that you can do away with high light low co2 and so on is all Where LIGHTING IS AT. Going old school. In rebuttal to all and everything light and lighting ranges are everything. This is my observation. The state of the hobby is blasting lights....

Take my little low light tank for example: Its not much, i don't do much, its pretty much the choice of plants too.








I can almost assure you i can get away with a lot and lots of things because my lighting is so low. I see people asking "is this enough light?" Usually more than enough. Its more about spread rather than intensity. ITS MORE ABOUT SPREAD RATHER THAN INTENSITY. Get a good spread where nothing is shaded and you'll see growth and good growth where you do not get algae. If i were to add co2 to this tank, a lot more variables i can add as well of getting away with even more such as falling asleep with the light on given that thats not constant and ur plants still get a break.

Now I can also put a higher light on this tank and swap the different plants out and get good results too. I said "higher" not high

but simply stated, incompletely, this is where the hobby is at such the state, blasting your lights away where you cannot upkeep ...

I telling you guys....your problem is not fert., your problem is not co2, your problem is not T. Bar, its getting the right and sufficient amount of lighting.

This is my hard standpoint and stubborn opinion


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

So essentially we want low tech, more automation, and hands off. This just screams lazy American way of life to me. And we don't want to pay for it. 

Pretty much America in a nut shell, so it's not really that crazy to think about. 

@JustLikeAPill Those silver boxes are sexy lol.

While the top placing aquascapes might not look natural or as we think natural should look they are more of the art side of this hobby. People use a lot of hardscape and elements to create a scene more than just planting some plants. Something I would never take the time to do and something I have never seen anyone from America do. 

The hobby here simply isn't what it is in other countries. Look at bonsai trees. I've only ever seen one person from America (these forums) growing and sustaining multiple ones much less one, and he wasn't even from here. 

While the Japanese are spending hours in there zen gardens to create things we can only drool over online we are hiring people to cut out 1/4 acre lot so that we can catch up on our recorded tv shows.

When it comes to nature we just do not care like others do. I've seen this with fish ranging from Arowana to Discus to Koi. Bonsai, gardens, koi ponds, the list goes on. Other cultures people will buy $30,000 koi because they like them, here if someone buys the $30,000 koi it's because they know you can't. 

This all adds to the reasons of the lack of innovation, enthusiasm, dying forums, and so on. If the decrease in forum activity doesn't show anyone this fact then nothing will. 

Oh, and those local club forums are incredibly annoying. They are good for buying $3 cichlids, old wood frame tanks, and cracked eheims. Definitely not a help towards the hobby. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

zchauvin, be very careful with your bonsai analogy. I have grown bonsai for 40 years, and I certainly do not have a personal Asian heritage to back me up. And I know other Americans who have done it longer than I have, with exquisite trees to show.

The discussion (and the hobby) suffers from a false dichotomy, "Balanced Aquarium" versus "High Tech". In truth, there is a continuum. I think that one key to personal success in the hobby is to determine where you are most comfortable in the continuum, and set up your aquaria in that sweet spot. And yes, you can have more than one type of tank!

And I agree with StrungOut, super high light has become a destructive obsession. We all now have access to technology that allows us to easily over-light our tanks.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

zchauvin said:


> So essentially we want low tech, more automation, and hands off. This just screams lazy American way of life to me. And we don't want to pay for it...


What I consider better is not about being lazy. This is not about low tech vs. high tech, a grouping that makes no sense anyway. It is about using the natural tendencies and enjoying the hobby more. Keeping the tank on the verge of disaster, shutting it down when you go on vacation, not understanding basic principles - I can hardly call that "enjoyment".

From what we have seen we can force beauty, snap a picture, and pretend it works great. If you have been long enough in the hobby you know how that works. It all does come down to mentality indeed - look at the Vietnamese hobby. On one of their forums there isn't a single discussion about fertilizers or light. They have embraced ADA - which, no matter how we look at it has blended "low tech" with "high tech". The Vietnamese are some of the leading aquascapers today (if you are ok with copying ADA). The American "high tech" approach is the leading... ... wait... leading what? Leading Google statistics maybe


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

True. I know the term low and high tech are used often but I see low tech as lazy. Just my personal opinion. Having worked at an lfs for the maintenance division for some years the only real high vs low I saw was reef compared to fresh. To me there should be no difference as all that really separates them is co2 injection and light output. IMO co2 should be just as important as filtration, as in everyone should use it regardless of light output. Plants need co2 for health and growth just as much as they need water/humidity to survive.

Every time I see "low tech" is when the people don't want to do maintenance. Most** will then post in the algae section and wonder why there tank looks bad and end up going with DIY or cheap co2, then to pressurized. 

Most of the tanks I serviced had owners who could care less (freshwater) or those who actually cared about the tanks (saltwater). The difference was night and day, and not necessarily because reef keeping takes more equipment but because they were more involved in the hobby and did what was necessary to have a thriving ecosystem.

99% of freshwater planted systems looked horrible, but had a cheap canister that only worked two weeks out of the month, were never topped off, never had correct dosing, and were plain ole neglected. If those people would have been more involved (fresh or salt) and would have purchased / implemented what was necessary the maintenance would have been a tad higher if done manually but the tanks would have been far better. Those with freshwater tended to have it because they didn't want to spend the time and money to have a good looking tank so just settled.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

And let's not forget how hard people take criticism. No one wants to take advice or learn. Niko you know this first hand, you try to share what worked for you and people tore you a new hole.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> While the top placing aquascapes might not look natural or as we think natural should look they are more of the art side of this hobby. People use a lot of hardscape and elements to create a scene more than just planting some plants. Something I would never take the time to do and something I have never seen anyone from America do.


How dare you say that about American Aquascapers


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> How dare you say that about American Aquascapers


Lol. I can only say what I have seen. I don't think anyone would argue the point though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

The Bonsai tradition is a Japanese one so why would it be surprising that there's not as many people doing it to the level or the commitment that the Japanese have? But you really shouldn't say things like 'never' as Michael pointed out. That's just not very accurate. 

Same with aquascaping there are plenty of good American aquascapers. As with bonsai the Nature Aquarium has it's influence from Bonsai as well, in that it's taking a nature scene and scaling it somewhat to fit into a 2-5 foot glass box. Japanese gardening also comes into play so why is it surprising that it's not as popular and the commitment isn't as rich as it is in Asia, but people certainly do it here and do it well.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> The Bonsai tradition is a Japanese one so why would it be surprising that there's not as many people doing it to the level or the commitment that the Japanese have? But you really shouldn't say things like 'never' as Michael pointed out. That's just not very accurate.
> 
> Same with aquascaping there are plenty of good American aquascapers. As with bonsai the Nature Aquarium has it's influence from Bonsai as well, in that it's taking a nature scene and scaling it somewhat to fit into a 2-5 foot glass box. Japanese gardening also comes into play so why is it surprising that it's not as popular and the commitment isn't as rich as it is in Asia, but people certainly do it here and do it well.


Can you reference a high placing American aquascaper? I cannot think of any whatsoever.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> Can you reference a high placing American aquascaper? I cannot think of any whatsoever.


In IAPLC? What would you consider high ranking?

Remember this is a Japanese-based contest. There are probably 50 times as many Japanese entries as there are American.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> In IAPLC? What would you consider high ranking?
> 
> Remember this is a Japanese-based contest. There are probably 50 times as many Japanese entries as there are American.


So is there no American competition?? What does that say?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> So is there no American competition?? What does that say?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is AGA, but most think of the IAPLC as the big one.


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

From 2015:
228 Tu Tran
358 George Lo
629 Arlie Higgins
806 Jeffrey Miotke
881 Rory Egan
944 Joy Watanabe
1221 Giuseppe Giammona
1857 Alex Edelstein
I missed one, There were nine. 


2000 people listed. Can you imagine being last? That was not an American.


----------



## Riverboa (Jun 26, 2007)

Of these, I wonder how many are on this or the other forum



JustLikeAPill said:


> From 2015:
> 228 Tu Tran
> 358 George Lo
> 629 Arlie Higgins
> ...


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks for posting that JustLikeAPill.

Well George Lo is from Aqua Forest (ADA Distributor). There's one other name I recognize from TPT but I won't say who it is.


----------



## Riverboa (Jun 26, 2007)

George isn't really active on either forum though. In other IAPLC years, I've also seen the Senke's and Frank X on the participation list. I myself participated in 2014. 

I guess my point is, American participation in IAPLC is very low (as a percentage of total American aquascapers) - and therefore, the placement/ranking that we see isn't necessarily representative of the cutting edge of American aquascapers' capability. I've seen great scapes from American aquascapers on these forums, most just didn't participate in IAPLC.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Riverboa said:


> George isn't really active on either forum though. In other IAPLC years, I've also seen the Senke's and Frank X on the participation list. I myself participated in 2014.
> 
> I guess my point is, American participation in IAPLC is very low (as a percentage of total American aquascapers) - and therefore, the placement/ranking that we see isn't necessarily representative of the cutting edge of American aquascapers' capability. I've seen great scapes from American aquascapers on these forums, most just didn't participate in IAPLC.


Yeah, I do agree. Well the people you mentioned George, Senskes and Frank were all involved professionally with ADA as they all ran or worked for distributors. I think that's part of the problem with contests like ADA they can't separate professional and amateur aquascapers. Aquascapers that are involved professional have greater access to hardscape, plants and to the tank they are designing as it's usually in their place of business and they can have employees look after it to some extent.

This is even more rampant in Japan, etc. where many do this for a living and have groups of people working on the tank from maintenance to professional photographs. It's a lot of work to get a tank ready to rank high, especially if your doing it by yourself in your home which isn't as prevalent in the US. I looked back at these contests and there was 39 Americans in IAPLC in 2010 (mine was one of them), this year only has 13 US entries. I think the excitement was starting to build but then people realize how much work it was and participation started to fall off, whereas in Asia aquascaping is more culturally entrenched in society.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Haha, this is mildly funny.

Just like contractor insurance that every little contractor will tell you how expensive it is and you believe him. Most contractor insurance can be had for $80-$100 a month. True story. Heck, you can actually insure your car for way less IF you register a company for $9 (nine American dollars). $5 mil coverage is not unusual. Yes, for way less that you are paying now as an individual.

Point is - some things we "know" are not the way we think they are. So how expensive it is to run a forum? A domain name, a host, a layout for free from a million places, volunteer moderators. Omg, that is sooooo expensive! Let me guess... $100 a year? 

Make that $500 just for the heck of it. Most people pay more a year for nasty cheap hamburgers. And never call that "expensive"... or look for sponsors to keep them eating the nasty crap.

I know I won't see a response for whoever owns APC now. So just freaking give me a break with the claims that "sponsors" "keep this place going".


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

zchauvin said:


> Can you reference a high placing American aquascaper? I cannot think of any whatsoever.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tom Barr. Some years ago he setup a tank for a huge celebrity in California. I call that a huge success for aquascaping. Better than winning any contest. Proves all kinds of points and promotes all kinds of planted tanks.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

niko said:


> Tom Barr. Some years ago he setup a tank for a huge celebrity in California. I call that a huge success for aquascaping. Better than winning any contest. Proves all kinds of points and promotes all kinds of planted tanks.


Well, not really what I was referring to, but I agree.

He noticed a while back that we are just growing plants in water and did something amazing and unheard of... He gave proper light, co2 , and ferts.... Omg.

Really though. People for whatever reason always want to re invent the wheel and make things so complicated when this is one of the simplest hobbies.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

@zchauvin

I saw one of your F/S threads. It looks like you dived into ADA head first and bought everything from their algae scraper to their filters/lily pipes/tanks. What did you do with the setup? In a previous post you said you accomplished everything in planted aquaria, but in another post you said you don't have any interest in setting up a nature aquarium and dealing with hardscape, plant positioning, etc. 

So why would you buy all the aesthetics that ADA products have to offer if your just going to throw the plants in and have it look like the leafy vegetable section of the supermarket? Functionally you could buy almost any brand. ADA is functional, but aesthetics is what does/did set them apart.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> @zchauvin
> 
> I saw one of your F/S threads. It looks like you dived into ADA head first and bought everything from their algae scraper to their filters/lily pipes/tanks. What did you do with the setup? In a previous post you said you accomplished everything in planted aquaria, but in another post you said you don't have any interest in setting up a nature aquarium and dealing with hardscape, plant positioning, etc.
> 
> So why would you buy all the aesthetics that ADA products have to offer if your just going to throw the plants in and have it look like the leafy vegetable section of the supermarket? Functionally you could buy almost any brand. ADA is functional, but aesthetics is what does/did set them apart.


It's all sitting in my closet right now, I like how the products look. I've always bought only ADA strictly for how nice they are. But, like many times before, I set up a hardscape, plant, and do everything as I should and get tired of it. I just get bored with plants.

Honestly when I first got into the hobby some years ago, 99% of my posts were trying to learn and ask for help regarding algae and what not. Once I understood what was necessary and started paying attention to my livestock and plants and not every forum post is when I realized how simple it is. For the last year or two I barely had any post other than to sell what I bought, as I figured I would give it a go thinking my interest was back into it only to be disappointed and bored a few weeks later.

I've also had wild Discus, and wild angelfish. All same conclusion, got excited, learned how to take care of them, and then sold because at the end of the day - it's just some fish swimming in water.

Hell, I gave away $800 worth of Santa Isabel Altum Angelfish three weeks ago just because I was tired of them and no one would buy lol.

At first it was fun for me because I always had issues, it would keep me busy always trying to figure things out and learn how to do things. Once I had the knowledge and didn't have to constantly be asking for help or changing this or adjusting ferts and co2 it just died off. It's like I tell everyone who is always asking questions... Stop trying to buy bubble counters and drop checkers and all these little crutches. I've been there and done that and learned nothing. Once you start to look at your tank and adjust accordingly and learn on your own based off of your experiences it is a very easy thing to do. Almost like watching grass grow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> I've also had wild Discus, and wild angelfish. All same conclusion, got excited, learned how to take care of them, and then sold because at the end of the day - it's just some fish swimming in water.


If it's just some fish swimming around or some plants growing then you don't get it (aquascaping side of the hobby anyway). That's why I was surprised to see all the ADA stuff you bought. Other's don't care about aquascaping and just like to grow different plants, but they usually don't care as much about the look of their equipment. It sounds like your neither, so back to the dark side.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> If it's just some fish swimming around or some plants growing then you don't get it (aquascaping side of the hobby anyway). That's why I was surprised to see all the ADA stuff you bought. Other's don't care about aquascaping and just like to grow different plants, but they usually don't care as much about the look of their equipment. It sounds like your neither, so back to the dark side.


Lol yeah. Like I said I just don't really see it like others I guess. Now I have to find a way to get rid of 2k of stuff lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> Lol yeah. Like I said I just don't really see it like others I guess. Now I have to find a way to get rid of 2k of stuff lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Give it to Niko, he's a huge ADA Fan boy!


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

I call dibs on that Tower. 

For real real, not for play play ;P


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

zchauvin said:


> It's all sitting in my closet right now, I like how the products look. I've always bought only ADA strictly for how nice they are. But, like many times before, I set up a hardscape, plant, and do everything as I should and get tired of it. I just get bored with plants.
> 
> Honestly when I first got into the hobby some years ago, 99% of my posts were trying to learn and ask for help regarding algae and what not. Once I understood what was necessary and started paying attention to my livestock and plants and not every forum post is when I realized how simple it is. For the last year or two I barely had any post other than to sell what I bought, as I figured I would give it a go thinking my interest was back into it only to be disappointed and bored a few weeks later.
> 
> ...


I've never heard such a take on the aquarium hobby. I always assumed that something that we can't put in words draws us to it. Like looking at Natural views - they never get boring. What I find utterly boring though is an iwagumi, haha.

Glad you found a home for the Altums. They were in an outstanding shape.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> Give it to Niko, he's a huge ADA Fan boy!


Oh yeah? So why don't you come over and find something, anything ADA that I own. I'd love to see it, it must be somewhere here, I just have never seen it!

Ah yes - the other day I bought some Bacter 100. Pretty serious "fan-nery" after 15 years loving, bashing, hating the puny outfit and never getting a single one of their amazing products. Got the Bacter because the only other option is Microbe Lift, nothing else. The aquarium hobby in America believes in everything else but bacteria, haha

That's right, I have AquaSoil too. It was given to me years ago. Geez, ADA finds its way into one's house and you don't even realize it! It must feel a bit like finding out you have bed bugs


----------



## BarryR (May 30, 2016)

niko said:


> I've never heard such a take on the aquarium hobby. I always assumed that something that we can't put in words draws us to it. Like looking at Natural views - they never get boring. What I find utterly boring though is an iwagumi, haha.
> 
> Glad you found a home for the Altums. They were in an outstanding shape.


This thread sure has wandered around.

It appears that in zchauvin case once the challenges fade so does the interest. I have done that myself with other hobbies so perhaps it is not that unusual. For me this hobby is not one of those because I am not trying to conquer anything. I just want to create something pleasing in my home.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

niko said:


> Oh yeah? So why don't you come over and find something, anything ADA that I own. I'd love to see it, it must be somewhere here, I just have never seen it!
> 
> The aquarium hobby in America believes in everything else but bacteria, haha
> 
> That's right, I have AquaSoil too. It was given to me years ago. Geez, ADA finds its way into one's house and you don't even realize it! It must feel a bit like finding out you have bed bugs


Thought I'd catch you, but since you invited me over, I believe you, although you could be hiding $2,000 worth of the stuff in your closet like zchauvin.



niko said:


> I've never heard such a take on the aquarium hobby. I always assumed that something that we can't put in words draws us to it. Like looking at Natural views - they never get boring. ...


I totally agree. If you don't feel any of this, yeah I would go catch some Lionfish, put them in your aquarium and at the same time you'll be helping out the eco-system.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Since this is thread about the state of the hobby... Let's shed a tear;

Peruse this site. Guy used to be into planted tanks some years ago. Don't know now - I think, probably, not. Here's why (get a napkin to cry in before you start looking):

https://reefbuilders.com


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

niko said:


> Since this is thread about the state of the hobby... Let's shed a tear;
> 
> Peruse this site. Guy used to be into planted tanks some years ago. Don't know now - I think, probably, not. Here's why (get a napkin to cry in before you start looking):
> 
> https://reefbuilders.com


What happened niko? The link is just to the homepage


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes, the homepage. Start clicking to see the articles... A far cry from what we see and discuss on planted tank forums. It's like looking into another universe - huge and dynamic.


----------



## Dave Kotschi (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's my two cents worth. I just turned 69. I got my first 15 gallon aqwuarium from Montgomery Ward in 1967. That's all it was, an aquarium but I was fascinated. Had at least one tank of water in the house almost all the time since. 

I'm a gadget freak. I've tried soil(messy), DIY undergravel wiring(created a siphon and damn near emptied the tank), crawled in ditches looking for dapnia, DIY 48" fluorescent hoods, DIY compact fluorescent hoods, DIY co2 liter bottles, high pressure co2 bottles, Dan Quackenbush's substrate(Harz Mountain kitty litter. Unbelieveably messy). I've got drawers full of Mach testing equipment. I've got an obsolete 8watt uv sterilizer I just managed to get working because I couldn't bring my self to throw it away.

So where is all this going? The hobby has changed and I'm not sure its for the better. It is difficult to find a good freshwater bricks and mortar store. Reef specialists are becoming almost common but extremely expensive to set up and maintain. Once common fish are disappearing. I haven't seen a checkerboard barb in over twenty years. (Continued)


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Reef is where it's at!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dave Kotschi (Dec 16, 2007)

I think our hobby is becoming hard for a newbie to break into. Who wants to read about "dissolved solids", co2 tanks and never ending latin names? Eventually as one's interest grows, yes; but not initially. As it stands one needs a degree in chemistry to understand much of what's being written.

How about a forum, highlighted on the homepage, dedicated to potential new hobbiests? Give practical advice about lighting, pH, hardness and temperature. 

Okay, stick a fork in me 'cause I'm done. Time for some bourbon or some Geritol depending on if the wife gets to me before I get to the bourbon.

Peace.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> Reef is where it's at!!


Reef is in like 1% of US households so not sure if that's "where it's at." Actually maybe it's 1.5% with everyone running out and buying Blue Tangs because of the Finding Dory movie.


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> Reef is in like 1% of US households so not sure if that's "where it's at." Actually maybe it's 1.5% with everyone running out and buying Blue Tangs because of the Finding Dory movie.


Reef Central Online Community Statistics	
Threads: 1,898,288, Posts: 18,825,402, Members: 354,126

Aquatic Plant Central Statistics
Threads: 90,697, Posts: 686,113, Members: 46,192


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

brwaldbaum said:


> Reef Central Online Community Statistics
> Threads: 1,898,288, Posts: 18,825,402, Members: 354,126
> 
> Aquatic Plant Central Statistics
> Threads: 90,697, Posts: 686,113, Members: 46,192


Even without regressing for active vs. inactive members and rounding up to 7.5 billion humans, that's still .0047% and .000062% respectively so yeah, houseofcards totally blew it .


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

brwaldbaum said:


> Reef Central Online Community Statistics
> Threads: 1,898,288, Posts: 18,825,402, Members: 354,126
> 
> Aquatic Plant Central Statistics
> Threads: 90,697, Posts: 686,113, Members: 46,192





ukamikazu said:


> Even without regressing for active vs. inactive members and rounding up to 7.5 billion humans, that's still .0047% and .000062% respectively so yeah, houseofcards totally blew it .


I'm actually sincerely embarrassed for the two of you.

Your using a forum to determine the installed base for reef vs planted. Forums are not random households. People choice to belong to forums. Statistically valid research is households chosen at random. A forum doesn't measure anything other than the popularly of that particular forum. I've been a professional researcher for 20 years. I kinda know this stuff.


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

houseofcards said:


> I'm actually sincerely embarrassed for the two of you.
> 
> Your using a forum to determine the installed base for reef vs planted. Forums are not random households. People choice to belong to forums. Statistically valid research is households chosen at random. A forum doesn't measure anything other than the popularly of that particular forum. I've been a professional researcher for 20 years. I kinda know this stuff.


I've done worse . Have a laugh here: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
I discovered that gem working at the Advisory Board Company.

When I was first learning statistics and the R programming language as I was first entering the medical industry, an old data scientist gave me a sample from live data for a specific US state. We crunched the numbers and were left with the conclusion that in this northwestern US state, if you were a white male between the ages of 18 and 54 and practiced Asatru, the modern reconstruction of the Old Norse religion, admitted to a specific hospital system and resided within 5 miles of its coastline, your outcomes were much better than any other cohort. This was, of course, an exercise in the very thing you mentioned. My apologies if you didn't catch the intended joke. I can sometimes have an area of flat affect in a strictly text based format, smilies notwithstanding.

This is how nerds have fun. But you knew this.


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

Nat geo states 1.3 million households have reef aquaria containing over 9 million animals with an import rate of 11.3 million yearly only in the USA. Annnddd no such articles relating to freshwater. Those were the only technical numbers I could find. 

If that, forum numbers, sales, YouTube videos, blogs, ect don't show that reefing overpowers freshwater then I don't know what would. Just work in an lfs for six months, freshwater is for kids. 

No offense to anyone here. I am not calling any of you children!!! Lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

zchauvin said:


> Nat geo states *1.3 million households have reef aquaria* containing over 9 million animals with an import rate of 11.3 million yearly only in the USA. Annnddd no such articles relating to freshwater.


I hate to say this but are you really that naive?

If I go by your numbers which are probably somewhat valid. There are 1.3 million households with reef. How many households do you think there are in the US? 10 million?, 20 million?, 50 million?. There are approximately 120 million (US Census). If I take your 1.3 million by the 120 what do we get?

*1.1%* *of households have Reef.* Which is pretty much what I said in post #129



houseofcards said:


> *Reef is in like 1% of US households* so not sure if that's "where it's at." Actually maybe it's 1.5% with everyone running out and buying Blue Tangs because of the Finding Dory movie.


Freshwater (Not just planted) is around 12% there's no comparison as far as saturation. Whether you think reef is great or not has nothing to do with it. Do you really think the typical household would start a reef tank over a simple freshwater tank when the costs, complexity for someone new is so extreme.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

ukamikazu said:


> ... My apologies if you didn't catch the intended joke. I can sometimes have an area of flat affect in a strictly text based format, smilies notwithstanding.
> 
> This is how nerds have fun. But you knew this.


I hear you, I didn't catch that at first glance, use more smileys nex time  The lunacy of the post prior to your's bent my brain somewhat. Those line graph comparisons are too much!!!


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I hate to say this but are you really that naive?
> 
> If I go by your numbers which are probably somewhat valid. There are 1.3 million households with reef. How many households do you think there are in the US? 10 million?, 20 million?, 50 million?. There are approximately 120 million (US Census). If I take your 1.3 million by the 120 what do we get?
> 
> ...


Not saying you are wrong, just posting what I had found, which yes you were correct. But I could not find anything relating to fresh water, could you share the link showing 12%?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> I hear you, I didn't catch that at first glance, use more smileys nex time  The lunacy of the post prior to your's bent my brain somewhat. Those line graph comparisons are too much!!!


You're unable to come to grips with the fact that there are lots of people who don't like planted tanks as much as you.


----------



## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

brwaldbaum said:


> You're unable to come to grips with the fact that there are lots of people who don't like planted tanks as much as you.


You missed the point, and hit the hominem. Be careful, there.

The point was that there is no conclusion we can draw from the numbers you posted, other than one single forum is more active than another single forum... which gives us no proof about the "state" of the hobby.


----------



## Riverboa (Jun 26, 2007)

Thanks for the link Uka. Absolutely hilarious.



ukamikazu said:


> I've done worse . Have a laugh here: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
> I discovered that gem working at the Advisory Board Company.


Along the same vein, I personally like p-hacking explanation from xkcd

http://www.xkcd.com/882/


----------



## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

Riverboa said:


> Thanks for the link Uka. Absolutely hilarious.
> 
> Along the same vein, I personally like p-hacking explanation from xkcd
> 
> http://www.xkcd.com/882/


Classic! Is there no subject covered by XKCD? Love that guy!


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

ObiQuiet said:


> You missed the point, and hit the hominem. Be careful, there.
> 
> The point was that there is no conclusion we can draw from the numbers you posted, other than one single forum is more active than another single forum... which gives us no proof about the "state" of the hobby.


The "point" is HOC's inability to accept the fact that there are lots of people who don't like planted tanks as much as he does.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

ObiQuiet said:


> You missed the point, and hit the hominem. Be careful, there.
> 
> The point was that there is no conclusion we can draw from the numbers you posted, other than one single forum is more active than another single forum... which gives us no proof about the "state" of the hobby.


Nicely stated


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

brwaldbaum said:


> The "point" is HOC's inability to accept the fact that there are lots of people who don't like planted tanks as much as he does.


I have no idea where you getting this from. Did you even read the other posts in the thread?

BTW: Are you lost? This is a planted tank forum


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

houseofcards said:


> I have no idea where you getting this from.


From here vvvvvvvv



houseofcards said:


> BTW: Are you lost? This is a planted tank forum


Please don't be petulant.


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Some relevant Google searches...


----------



## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

LOL, methodology is important.

This shows a pattern for "buy aquarium plants" searches, but not enough "buy aquarium corals" searches to register on the chart.
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=buy aquarium corals, buy aquarium plants&cmpt=q&tz=Etc/GMT+5

Some others: Freshwater fish have more pages indexed than saltwater fish.


----------



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Count the number of vendors of aquarium plants on the 1st three pages of hits. Compare it to the number of coral vendors on the 1st three pages. 

Fish are irrelevant.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Let's not feed the troll anymore. He's been a member here since 2004 and has a whopping 24 posts. I think he'll go away soon enough.


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

http://en.iaplc.com/results16/index.html

hmmmmmm
USA-14 entries


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

Top 10, top 10-...
all have in common?
moss...


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

I think the top entries are rather achievable, they look great no doubt, but you look closely its just about wood/rock placement and attaching moss then growing..
seems like easier skill
the biggest problem is obtaining your hardscape materials


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

No one to continue on?
I froze the post?
don't be scurred


----------



## zchauvin (Jul 28, 2011)

No reason to continue saying the same things over and over


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NYC (Jun 28, 2016)

I think that this hobby will always stay alive due to the OGS being less active, but there will always be newbies who start. This is like a never ending cycle!


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

2016 IAPLC results announced. The top US contestant was 218/2000. So we are improving as a nation!

http://jp.iaplc.com/results16/pdf/iaplc2016_worldranking.pdf


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

When will photos be available? More interesting than national ranking will be the dominant style of the high-placing entries.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

JustLikeAPill said:


> 2016 IAPLC results announced. The top US contestant was 218/2000. So we are improving as a nation!
> 
> http://jp.iaplc.com/results16/pdf/iaplc2016_worldranking.pdf


Actually someone form US easily cracked the top 100. Other's have done that before but they were I believe all ADA distributors.


----------



## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Michael said:


> When will photos be available? More interesting than national ranking will be the dominant style of the high-placing entries.


Meticulously groomed all-moss mountain scapes. Again.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Definitely more hardscape and less plants. I don't know if IAPLC (Aquatic Plant Layout) still works as a title.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Can you give me a link to the photos? I don't want to sneer without actually looking at them, LOL.


----------



## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm curious why we care what someone else's art style looks like... aren't they just different styles executed in different media?

Like these:


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I am curious about a variety of styles because they might show me something new, or change the way I look at something I've been familiar with for a long time.


----------



## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

Michael said:


> I am curious about a variety of styles because they might show me something new, or change the way I look at something I've been familiar with for a long time.


Yes, indeed. That's what I'd call a "positive curiosity". It's the critical "they're doing it wrong" negative part I don't get.


----------

