# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Plants no longer bubble ???



## dysfunctional (Aug 20, 2003)

Tank has been running for one and a half month. Usually bubbles like mad when I add the Liquid Ferts and also when I change water...the hairgrass bubbles after a cut..... but for the last two weeks... even after water changes my plants do not bubble.....why is that ??? I have added alot of ferts and usually after adding a little....it starts to bubble... but not anymore.. 

The plants are growing (My vals after cutting are growing). Does anyone know why ?? I only added the chiller about 3 weeks ago and they were bubbling even after that but not the last two weeks.... very confused...can anyone spot the problem ?? 

My Tank details :

Aquarium setup 
1. Tank dimensions: 6 by 2.5 by 2.5 ft (Actual water depth 2 ft)
2. Lighting: 3 times 150 Watt MH Lights (2 feet above water surface)
3. Filtration: Sump filter (3 ft by 18 inches.... bio balls, koi mat, ceramic rings and about 10 KG of sintered glass (Similar to Bio Homme)
4. Extra equipments: Chiller Healia half HP set at 27 degrees
5. Base fertiliser: Denerrle Deponitmix.
6. Gravel: Lonestar river sand

Flora
1. Echinodorus 'Rubin'
2. Echinodorus 'Red Flame'
3. Downoi
4. Dwarf Hairgrass
5. Vallisneria Asiatica
6. Vallisneria Spiralis
7. Echinodorus x barthii 
8. Japonica
9. Red Tiger Lotus
10. Eusteralis stellata (Pogostemon stellata)
11. Singapore Moss
12. Java Moss
13. Madagasca Lace Plant
14. Hygro. Corymbosa Compacta.
15. Erect Moss

Fauna
1. Cigar Fish x 5
2. Rummy Nose Tetra x 20
3. White Cloud Mountain x 6
4. Golden Algae eaters x 10
5. SAE x 6
6. False SAE x 1
7. Zebra Danio x 1
8. Zebra Snail x 1
9. Cherry Shrimps (Started with 40)
10. Yamato Shrimp (Started with 70)
11. Common Oto x 6

Routine
1. 25% water change every saturday
2. Lights on for 9 hours daily
3. Fert Lushgro Aqua (40 ml)(Similar to TMG), Potassium Sulphate (3 teaspoons) Potassium Nitrate (1 teaspoon) Epsom Salts (3 teaspoons) Lushgro Micro (15 ml)(More Iron)

Other Information
- KH 4
- GH 3
- PH 6
- NH 4 = Zero
- NO 2 = Zero
- NO 3 = 10 mg/l
- PO 4 = Zero
- O2 = 4 mg / l throughout the day
- Fe = 0.5 mg/l


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## dysfunctional (Aug 20, 2003)

Tank has been running for one and a half month. Usually bubbles like mad when I add the Liquid Ferts and also when I change water...the hairgrass bubbles after a cut..... but for the last two weeks... even after water changes my plants do not bubble.....why is that ??? I have added alot of ferts and usually after adding a little....it starts to bubble... but not anymore.. 

The plants are growing (My vals after cutting are growing). Does anyone know why ?? I only added the chiller about 3 weeks ago and they were bubbling even after that but not the last two weeks.... very confused...can anyone spot the problem ?? 

My Tank details :

Aquarium setup 
1. Tank dimensions: 6 by 2.5 by 2.5 ft (Actual water depth 2 ft)
2. Lighting: 3 times 150 Watt MH Lights (2 feet above water surface)
3. Filtration: Sump filter (3 ft by 18 inches.... bio balls, koi mat, ceramic rings and about 10 KG of sintered glass (Similar to Bio Homme)
4. Extra equipments: Chiller Healia half HP set at 27 degrees
5. Base fertiliser: Denerrle Deponitmix.
6. Gravel: Lonestar river sand

Flora
1. Echinodorus 'Rubin'
2. Echinodorus 'Red Flame'
3. Downoi
4. Dwarf Hairgrass
5. Vallisneria Asiatica
6. Vallisneria Spiralis
7. Echinodorus x barthii 
8. Japonica
9. Red Tiger Lotus
10. Eusteralis stellata (Pogostemon stellata)
11. Singapore Moss
12. Java Moss
13. Madagasca Lace Plant
14. Hygro. Corymbosa Compacta.
15. Erect Moss

Fauna
1. Cigar Fish x 5
2. Rummy Nose Tetra x 20
3. White Cloud Mountain x 6
4. Golden Algae eaters x 10
5. SAE x 6
6. False SAE x 1
7. Zebra Danio x 1
8. Zebra Snail x 1
9. Cherry Shrimps (Started with 40)
10. Yamato Shrimp (Started with 70)
11. Common Oto x 6

Routine
1. 25% water change every saturday
2. Lights on for 9 hours daily
3. Fert Lushgro Aqua (40 ml)(Similar to TMG), Potassium Sulphate (3 teaspoons) Potassium Nitrate (1 teaspoon) Epsom Salts (3 teaspoons) Lushgro Micro (15 ml)(More Iron)

Other Information
- KH 4
- GH 3
- PH 6
- NH 4 = Zero
- NO 2 = Zero
- NO 3 = 10 mg/l
- PO 4 = Zero
- O2 = 4 mg / l throughout the day
- Fe = 0.5 mg/l


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Do you have CO2 injection? Is there any buffer in your tank that lower your pH? Because with your pH and KH reading, it looks like your CO2 level is overboard (120 ppm).


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## dysfunctional (Aug 20, 2003)

yes...using a pressureised CO2 system which is pumping like mad...reducing it at the moment so PH is at 6.5


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

pH 6 is awfully low.

Bubbling is a symptom of two things; rapid photosynthesis and oxygen saturation. If the plants stopped bubbling then one of those two things is no longer true.

If the oxygen saturation dropped off then the drop could be due to increased respiration by a growing fish population or by a reduced buildup in oxygen -- perhaps because of increased circulation.

If the rate of photosynthesis dropped off then there are a number of potential causes. Generally, a drop in the lighting, a drop in the CO2 or a deficiency in one of more nutrients that is closely tied to photosynthesis.

The lighting could drop off because of aging of the lamps or because of shading. The CO2 could drop off if the pH readings are off for some reason or if there is some acidic buffer in the tank and the aeration was increased.

Phosphorus is perhaps the only nutrient that could have a direct effect on the rate of photosynthesis without having an easily observable deficiency syndrome. If phosphorus is a problem and the condition continues then the plants may cease to grow and possibly become dwarfed.


Roger Miller


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## Cougra (Mar 31, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> Phosphorus is perhaps the only nutrient that could have a direct effect on the rate of photosynthesis without having an easily observable deficiency syndrome. If phosphorus is a problem and the condition continues then the plants may cease to grow and possibly become dwarfed.
> ...


Is this with too much phosphorus or too little?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Too little. I don't know that there is a symptom of too much phosphate.


Roger MIller


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## Gagnon Brothers (Mar 3, 2004)

In my 5 gal I have more than 20ppm of phosphate and there is no problem (and no algae!!!). plants are bubbling.


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## hobbydud (Apr 17, 2004)

Gangon,

U said 20 ppm PO4 ????

Roger,

Could you please be more specific regarding bulbs aging? 

Allen.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

hobbydud,

Fluorescent lights have a significant loss in light output when they are new. After the initial losses the light output continues to decline, but it does so relatively slowly. The amount and rate of decline vary from lamp to lamp.

The light loss eventually reaches a point where the lamps need to be replaced. How quickly that happens depends on your bulb selection, how overdesigned your system is to start with and on how tolerant you are of a drop in lighting.

Most people recommend that fluorscent lights need to be replaced periodically because of the light loss. Recommendations vary from 6 months to two years or so.


Roger Miller


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## hobbydud (Apr 17, 2004)

Roger,

2 more clarifications if I may -



> quote:
> 
> pH 6 is awfully low


What is the problem with such a low PH? I am asking since some people with somewhat low KH may try to get CO2 beyond the 30ish ppm and end up with a low PH.



> quote:
> 
> Bubbling is a symptom of two things; rapid photosynthesis and oxygen saturation


I thought oxygen saturation could block photosynthesis or maybe at much higher PPMs? Or is it just a common misconception? What would be the recommended O2 throughut the day? Are his measured of 4 ppm - fine?

Allen.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> What is the problem with such a low PH? I am asking since some people with somewhat low KH may try to get CO2 beyond the 30ish ppm and end up with a low PH.


In this case the problem with such a low pH is that it means that with a KH of 4 degrees the CO2 concentration is 128 ppm. I doubt that result is correct and I suspect that the pH reading is incorrect or the KH reading is influenced by a non-carbonate buffer.

More generally, bacterial activity drops as the pH drops and fungal activity is promoted. That can give rise to unhealthy tank conditions. Fish die.

Someone who has low KH and wants to inject CO2 needs to do something to boost the KH first.



> quote:
> 
> I thought oxygen saturation could block photosynthesis or maybe at much higher PPMs? Or is it just a common misconception? What would be the recommended O2 throughut the day? Are his measured of 4 ppm - fine?


I've never read that high O2 will block photosynthesis. Perhaps that could be true at sufficiently high concentration. Oxygen concentrations in natural, sunlit waters are often over 9 ppm. When I actually had an O2 kit a few years ago my planted tanks even with no added CO2 and relatively dim light would be over the scale of the test kit. It read to 10 ppm. That was without any bubbling. O2 in a tank that is actively bubbling could be sky high.

I overlooked the O2 number in his list. I wonder if their might be a typo. Most fish are oxygen stressed below 4.5 ppm O2. Normal O2 levels are around 8.5-8.9 depending on altitude and temperature. They go higher from photosynthesis and lower from respiration. O2 in a healthy aquarium should probably never drop below 6 or so. A planted aquarium should generally be over 9 ppm during the day. It should drop at night with the low point being just before lights on. When I was testing oxygen the low point in my tanks was about 8 ppm. It can go much lower if there are problems.

Roger Miller


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## hobbydud (Apr 17, 2004)

Thank you Roger,

So just to make sure that I understand:

Higher temprature (Say 86F) -> Oxygen Saturation point goes down -> for the same oxygen level produced by photosynthesis we are at better chance of saturation -> more bubbles.

Adding Methylan Blue -> It binds the Oxygen -> less free oxygen -> less bubbles.

Right?

Allen.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Higher temprature (Say 86F) -> Oxygen Saturation point goes down -> for the same oxygen level produced by photosynthesis we are at better chance of saturation -> more bubbles.


The concept is right, anyway. Oxygen solubility does drop as temperature increases. On the other hand, photosynthesis may drop at elevated temperatures and that could offset the solubility effect.



> quote:
> 
> Adding Methylan Blue -> It binds the Oxygen -> less free oxygen -> less bubbles.


 Uh,sure. Actually it seems to me like if you got a drop in bubbling after adding Methylene blue then it was probably because the dye dropped the light level. The stuff would have to scavenge a lot of oxygen to take out what a bubbling tank can produce. Adding that much of an oxygen scavenger could just kill everything in the tank.

Roger Miller


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