# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Shrimp



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I'm curious as to people's experience with shrimp in natural planted tanks. What kind have you kept and how do they do in natural planted tanks?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I had some filter-feeders (from Peru) that fit in beautifully and were no trouble.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I still haven't seen any of the cherry shrimp I put in the 125 several weeks ago. Some of the ghost shrimp I added are doing well in the 29 gallon bowfront. Our water has a fair amount of copper, so that could also be a problem for shrimp.

Found a little 5 gallon tank at a garage sale and I plan to set it up as a planted cherry shrimp tank. I'm thinking of using a thin layer of worm casings mixed with oyster shell and then kitty litter and then a layer of gravel. I also have several potted plants that I could unpot and use soil that's used to being submerged. I definitely don't want to use the topsoil I used for the 125 since it took so long to get happy.

It's going to be a challenge finding plants that stay small enough for a 5 gallon tank. I'm thinking of maybe a bronze wendetti as the centerpiece. I should be able to find some other smaller crypts locally.


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## 10GALAQUATIC (Apr 18, 2005)

I've 5gal. natural tank with RCshrimp also. They are doing fine, some of the female have eggs. I can't wait to see the baby shrimp. But I don't know how long can the adult shimp live. Any body have an experience?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Well, I went with the aged topsoil from some potted plants and planted three types of crypts. Put a little 25 watt heater in it. So what are you using for water movement?


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

I have had shrimp for about 2 months now. I have them in a species tank as I was told that they will be eaten otherwise. I have them in a small 6g plastic tub(my plant clippings) with an HOB, 15w light strip & a bendable desk lamp w/a cf. No added heat and I am having no problems getting them to breed. I have three extremely pregnant females that should be having babies any day now. I have them housed with brigs and red rams. I feed them every evening and have added cuttlebone for calcium. I would imagine that you haven't lost all of the ones you put in the 125g, you just can't find them in the jungle.







You will have to wait until they breed some more to find them. That is unless the endlers are eating the babies as they happen. Which is very possible.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

To add to Betty's question, I've wondered what to do to provide them hiding places. Any pictures, desscriptions or ideas how folks with natural tanks are providing their shrimp shelter would be great. 

The natural method does not provide much opportunity to build significant structures to provide shelter. Assuming the tank is mostly plants. Or are people, and their shrimp, relying on plants as the hiding space?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I have ghost shrimp in the bowfront








Even with all the plant cover, I'd bet the swordtails are eating any baby shrimp as there are also endlers in that tank that I couldn't catch and I see few endler fry (which means they're getting eaten).

Here's the little newly set up 5 gallon. Plants are Cryp Wendtii v. tropica, Crypt lucens, and crypt lutea. It's getting direct sunlight, but I don't know if that's going to work cuz it got pretty warm yesterday. I adjusted the heater down last nite, so we'll see how much it warms up from the sun today.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

I have 5 amano or japanese algae-eating shrimp in my 10g natural (heavy mulm and gravel, no soil, but still going well) and I love the way they devour algae! They've been going strong for 9 mo. now.

They LOVE driftwood! for shelter and especially for eating. I don't know if they are eating rotting wood or primarily little micro-beings that I can't see, but they always graze there. Also, for shelter, you can make piles of rock so that they can sneak into the crevices. When mine are scared they get behind the driftwood or squeeze beneath a piece of slate and the gravel substrate. I don't know how they fit! I have a blurry photo I'll try to post---never done that before.

I just discovered that they like good circulation. They've been coming out more now and are more active now that I increased my flow. The largest one has quite an attitude and will tussle with my cherry barbs for shrimp and algae tablets. They do no harm and it's a fun fight to watch! 

Crypts and anubius do well for small tanks. The amanos will nibble crypts but only the dying leaves so I don't mind. If there's enough algae present, they don't seem to touch 'em.

Enjoy your red cherry shrimp. They are so beautiful! I'm sure they are all fine. My ghost shrimp and my amano shrimp all took about a month before they felt safe enough to come out into view. Now they are scared of nothing.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

That sounds neat.









I'm still stuck on what to do for water movement. I'm thinking for now of using DIY CO2 running a sponge filter.


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

I love red cherry shrimp.

I put three in my tank. I only see one at a time. I hope it is not the same one.

Betty have you thought of a little power head, that are sold to run table top fountains. I am not sure if they are immersable.

If you do not mind a HOB, an AquaClear Mini/20.

For either idea, I would include a sponge on the intake.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Oh that's a good idea. I've been eying those little desktop fountains at garage sales just cuz of the pumps. LOL Should have picked one up!


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Here's a blurry photo of my 10g planted with the largest Japanese Algae Eating shrimp (Edward Scissor Hands) visible on the Anubius in the middle. They love that driftwood---the others are hiding behind it in this photo. There are 5 shrimp in here since January.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Betty, how is your new shrimp tank going? Have the shrimp moved in yet? 

Nice little tank, javalee! I can see a Betta and a Cherry Barb as well as the shrimp; are there any other animals are in there? 

From Alex.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks Miss Fishy, yes, there are 2 female cherry barbs, an oto, and innumerable malaysian trumpet snails which one of the female barbs loves to eat when I mush them for her! Sadly, Betta died recently. He was a grand ol' fish.
The shrimp are fascinating to watch though. I call them the "cockroaches" of the aquarium because of their scavenging habits and their long antennae---but they are much preferable to roaches!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

LOL. nice tank!

Alex: Turns out it'll be next month before I get the cherry shrimp. She cleaned a bunch of plants out of her tank and discovered she didn't have as many as she thought. That's fine tho, cuz I planted some glosso today and moved the crypts around. It'll be nice to give it a while to get established. plus I still need to figure out something for water movement.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

It's getting direct sunlight now and everything is pearling. Very cool.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

I must get around to getting some more "aquatic cockroaches". I had some ghost shrimp that were just adorable but they all died when the heater in their tank broke in the middle of the night and the temperature went from 24°C to 10°C. I'm never ever having another heated tank after that experience! The worst thing was that ghost shrimp don't even need a heater so they would have been fine if the temperature had dropped gradually. 

From Alex.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I haven't kept shrimp in a while, however, in my planted 10 gal I do have a small terra cotta pot that fish can use for shelter. What I did was crack a hole in the side and it goes upside down in the tank. I took a java fern and put the roots through the hole on the bottom of the pot to keep it on top. The plant has grown long roots that seem attached to the pot and the ones in the hole appear to have grown down into the gravel. The pot is in an area of the tank where I have a bunch of other java ferns attached to rock, should I ever need to remove fish, I can just take out the rocks w/ plants, stick a divider in and scoop out the needed fish (thanks for the tip Diana!) I imagine that some sort of similar setup would also work for shrimp...

-ricardo


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## Veneer (Jun 12, 2005)

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> I had some filter-feeders (from Peru) that fit in beautifully and were no trouble.


Can you provide a scientific name?


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## Veneer (Jun 12, 2005)

Some of my own specimens (several personally collected in Puerto Rico) [click on thumbnails to enlarge]:

*Atyidae*

_Atya lanipes_:

 

*Xiphocarididae*

_Xiphocaris elongata_:

 

 

*Palaemonidae*

Undetermined _Macrobrachium_ 1:

 

Undetermined _Macrobrachium_ 2:

 

Undetermined _Macrobrachium_ 3:

 

Likely _M. acanthurus_:

 

 

 

_M. rosenbergii_:

 

"_M. duarii_":

 

 

 

Please accept my apologies for the poor image quality.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by Veneer:
> 
> 
> > quote:Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> ...


Sorry. I bought them at an aquarium auction years ago from a couple who said they were from the mountains of Peru.

I searched Google and couldn't find anything that seemed the same.

They looked like they had feathers attached to their heads. The feathers (actually the filter part) would roll up and then out.

I did find nice website at Arizona aquatic gardens with pics of various shrimp. The Singapore wood shrimp comes closest to what mine were like.

Aquarium Shrimp for Sale


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I'm still struggling with a bit of green water, so Saturday I made about a 50% water change. 

Maybe all that disturbance got the fauna a little bit riled up, but I finished topping the tank up and fed the fish a bit of food (as a peace offering I guess). I watched the 6 japonica dashing about catching pieces off the surface and then thoroughly examining the ground.

The all of a sudden, in the space of a minute, two shrimp had found small physa snails and plucked them out of their shells and were dining on them!

Any "shrimp keepers" see this behavior before? I see them in a whole new light now, part of me wonders how much predation of a recent platy spawn went to adult platy and how much to shrimp.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for interesting post. I can't see shrimp eating baby platys. The babies are too fast.

However, this is interesting that the shrimp are dining on snails. A new method for controlling snails?

I'm also thinking that some filter-feeding shrimp might be a nice solution for green water algae. The wood shrimp, which get to 3 inches and don't kill fish, might be worth a try. The shrimp would probably filter out green water algae from the water. 

There are two pictures of them (along with sales information) on the Aquarium Shrimp website that I provided in my earlier letter.

Has anyone used wood shrimp for green water algae?


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

My ghost shrimp ate the little snails that came on some new plants. I could see their little bellies turning red as they picked the shells clean! I was happy with this of course. 

One of these ghost shrimp later went on to become a fish fin-eater! I caught it swimming onto my betta and snipping away at his tail! By morning the betta's tail was in tatters. I switched the shrimp to my angel tank thinking it wouldn't dare go after an angel, but my angel's dorsal fin began to progressively disappear! Both fish healed rapidly after removing the shrimp. It was the Palemontes (sp?) species ID'd as ghost shrimp, I'm sure of that. So be wary of shrimp. I think my tanks were too clean at the time and the shrimp had nothing to forage on.


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## Veneer (Jun 12, 2005)

> Originally posted by javalee:
> My ghost shrimp ate the little snails that came on some new plants. I could see their little bellies turning red as they picked the shells clean! I was happy with this of course.
> 
> One of these ghost shrimp later went on to become a fish fin-eater! I caught it swimming onto my betta and snipping away at his tail! By morning the betta's tail was in tatters. I switched the shrimp to my angel tank thinking it wouldn't dare go after an angel, but my angel's dorsal fin began to progressively disappear! Both fish healed rapidly after removing the shrimp. It was the Palemontes (sp?) species ID'd as ghost shrimp, I'm sure of that. So be wary of shrimp. I think my tanks were too clean at the time and the shrimp had nothing to forage on.


Can you provide an image? It sounds like you had a _Macrobrachium_ - also of the Palaemonidae, and outwardly quite similar to standard ghost shrimp.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi Betty!

Keep looking for your red cherry shrimp in your 125 gallon - you may just have too few to see them! I've read, and firmly belive with comments that shrimp are difficult to see until you reach "critical mass". It seems when the population is large enough, there's always a few out in front and center. But with smaller populations, they're more shy, and hide. 

The Palaemon (?) types tend to be more predatory. The red cherry shrimp are a type of Neocardinia, and I believe the Amano shrimp are a Cardinia type. I have the red cherry ones (REALLY neat shrimp!) and have recently gotten some Blue Neocardinias. If what I've been able to find out is correct, they are the same type as the Red Cherries, but the reds are a "sport" which has been isolated, cultivated and selectively bred to encourage the red color. The blues are a more common variation of the "wild type" which vary from beige to brown and blue. Personally, I think the blues are really cool, too. They seem to get more blue with each molt. Also, this is just my observation, but it seems they get brownish just before a molt. Often I'll notice one of the larger blues is quite brown, then the next morning I'll see a molt skin, and I'll no longer see the brownish adult, but WILL find a very bright blue adult. This leads me to think the bright one is freshly molted. 

While some shrimp keepers are adamantly against adding iodine, I'm a firm beliver in it. I first added iodine after reading about it on AZGardens site (see wood shrimp link above). At small amounts, I noticed shinier exoskelatons, and the number of females with eggs really picked up. The shirmp just seemed more robust. I saw no damage to fish or plants, so I regularly replace the iodine when doing a small water change. I'll also add some when replacing evaporative loss.

I also have an unidentified filter feeding shrimp (not a wood shrimp). I was supposed to have 2, but one died in transit. It will occasionally disappear (to the point that I start scanning the floor for a carcass) and then I'll find a large molt skin (pretty scary the first time I saw it - 3" long) and by the end of the day, it will have "re-appeared". I have NO idea where it can hide without my finding it (its in my 39 gal long tank). I thought I knew every hiding crevace, but this guy does a REAL disappearing act, LOL!

The ghost shrimp are amusing, and inexpensive, but I have found that they're not long lived, even in ideal conditions. They also are very intolerant of heat (summer days) and sadly, the last ones I kept turned pink like cooked shrimp when my tank got up to 86 F. I felt so bad - I had been doing the ziploc baggie ice cube thing, trying to cool it down each evening, but it was in a hot apartment, and a small tank, and I haven't had ghost shrimp since. 

But I certainly think red cherry shrimp are a great addition to a planted community tank. With the presence of fish, most of the babies will be eaten, but a few will survive. I had larger survival amounts when the tank had just various tetras, snails and pygmy catfish. I added some sparkling gouramis (small, but gouramis nonetheless) and have not found a baby shrimp since. I may move the fish to a different tank, as I think they're too good at hunting. I used to regularly have baby shrimp "appear". They seem to like to molt in a dense wad of java moss, and the babies regularly appeared among a thick stand of crystal val. A food rich in calcium is important. I plan to get a pellet made for hermit crabs for them (recommended), as soon as I use up the "shrimp pellets" for corys and bottom feeders that I'm giving them now. They seem to like that just fine, despite the cannibalistic notion of the pellets being shrimp pellets. They're very amusing.... they'll march out when I've put in some pellets, and a few of the bigger ones, if competing for the same pellet, will sidle up alongside one another. Then, they will simultaneously shove food in their mouths as fast as they can with their feeder claws, all the while KICKING each other with their back legs! Its hilarious!

I hope your RC shrimp come out soon!
-Jane


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## Aquatic addict (Apr 14, 2006)

I got 5 shrimp, I think they are Caridina japonica (they were labeled grass shrimp at my LFS) They are always out in front, entertaining my son and I. They are great swimmers, occasionally making dramatic swoops around the tank, and excellent algae removers. The only drawback (if they are japonica) is they won't breed in freshwater.


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## Aquatic addict (Apr 14, 2006)

A typical grouping - these guys are great if you enjoy watching shrimp!


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

How big are they, it almost looks like a Cherry Red.


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## Aquatic addict (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi Erin, they are 1" or so. All of my aqua photos have a reddish cast, although the shrimp sometime appear pink (I think it may be before molting). These don't look exactly like other japonica photos I've found.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

javalee: Your tank is beautiful!









The little 5 gallon turned out to be a betta tank. LOL Right now it has green water and daphnia, a male betta and two olive nerite snails. I think it's kinda neat and hope it balances where the daphnia eat on the green water and the betta eats on the daphnia.

I made out at a garage sale and picked up a 20 tall, along with a pickup bed full of misc. fish stuff for $35. I set up the 20 as a natural planted tank for the cherry shrimp (which I picked up last weekend). It's going to look cool. used driftwood and some large rocks. pygmy chain swords, some of the mutant sag subulata from the 125, a kleiner bar sword and some other small narrow leaf swords. Have a penguin 330 powerhead with a foam prefilter in it (seasoned from the goldie tank to make sure the water stays happy till the plants get more mass going) and 40 watts of 6500K compact fluorescent light over it. It gets some sun light from the south window. The cherry shrimp were mostly little bitty, so right now, it takes a while just to find one.


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## MyraVan (Feb 13, 2005)

I've been wanting some shrimp for quite some time. I was out for a bike ride Saturday and stopped into a fish shop in a garden center to get some supplies, and looked at their fish (of course). They had some cute little cherry shrimp, and although I usually don't buy creatures from this shop (they usually have dead fish in the tanks, and Saturday was no exception), I got 6 of them and took them home in the pannier. 

They seem to be settling in nicely. The neon tetras tried to attack them when they arrived, but after the shrimps scooted off, quite quickly, they seem to have left them alone. I had a little piece of bogwood that had a fair bit of algae on it, now it has almost none! They really are cute, useful animals. Hope I have baby shrimp soon!


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I'd love to be able to keep shrimp in my tanks but between the rams, angels and gouramis (in the other tank) they'd be fish food.

-ricardo


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## phineus95 (Oct 29, 2004)

I have an eclipse 12 el natural tank set up at the office. I started with about 20 red cherry shrimp, they breed like crazy, keep the plants algae free and are just amusing as anything to watch. I'm not sure how many shrimp I have now, probably over 50, but I sold or traded over 120 this past 8 weeks. The baby shrimp are minitaure versions of the adult and would be fish food if there were any fish in the tank. I will also place algae covered plants from my "high tech" tank and within a couple of days, it's spotless.


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## novitt (Nov 6, 2005)

We have had lots of shrimp and invertabrates in general. We've had a long arm shrimp that is from guatamala that's big, about 3 in. but very peacful. We've had this shrimp around 4 years now We've had filter feeder shrimp sometimes called bamboo shrimp that are great too. we had lots of Japonica shrimp that I never liked much. They lived around two years. 

Oddly our favorite is the cheap ghost shrimp. When they fo well they really color up nice with beautiful shimmering colors and tiny dots. You have to look close to see but after a week in a nice tank you would never recognize them from the dealers tank. 

We also have had snails, ramshorn and trumpet and some clams and mussels. The mussels were great with their little pump like jets of water. 

All seem to do very well in a planted tank. They did best when I added a reef product called aragamite. I think with CO2 the water is a little acid for some types of crustations. If you have naturally hard water, like most well water, or don;t use C02 you'll likely be OK. 

Adam


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Adam, what kind of mussels did you have? I would like to get some mussels someday but at the moment there is no floor space in my tanks! Did they ever disturb the plants? 

From Alex.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Here's the shrimp tank. I picked up another 20 gallon tank at a garage sale for cheap.









Topsoil substrate covered by small gravel. Plants include chain swords, sag subulata, a kleiner bar sword and unknown narrow leaf swords. There's some hornworn, najas grass, riccia, duckweed and salvenia floating. It's kinda by a south window and gets sun in the evening and has 2 wpg 6500K compact fluorescent.

It has a penguin 170 powerhead with a foam prefilter for water movement. I've forgotten the wattage on the heater.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Hi Betty, love the new shrimp tank! I'm betting that the shrimp will really enjoy the rock and wood when they gather some algae. My caridinia japonica seem to like cleaning the green algae off the rocks more than the plants







!

I put 4 Palaemonetes paludosus, (often called ghost shrimp but I ID'd them down to species with their orange band on above the claws and on one pair of antennae) in my redone 10g and they are molting! I got to watch it happen this time since there is no driftwood to hide under. Could see the shells separating from the body---neat.

Anyway, they seem very at home with my "dirty" mature substrate, dead plant bits, and detritus from adding soil. They aren't bothering anyone like they did when I had them in the "clean" version of this tank (one attacked my betta and clipped his fins!), which makes me think they are perfect for natural aquariums. They have plenty to do and plenty to eat with all the stuff in the gravel! I want to get some "red cherry" cardinia next!

I can't wait to see some of your shrimp in the tank after the plants take off!


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

How many shrimp is a good number to have in your tank? I put 4 in my 30 gal 'bout 3 days ago and haven't seen them since. Fish are: angel, rams, cories, guppies and a bristlenose. Could they have been fish food?

-ricardo


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## Andrea Baker (Aug 21, 2004)

I have 6 shrimp in my 75 and I only see one or two of them once ever few days but I have a feeling that they are all still there. If you're densely planted I think it's pretty normal for them to disappear into the jungle.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I finally saw a shrimp in the 125!!! Added them months ago and hadn't seen one since!









Java: that sounds neat! I need to add some more ghost shrimp to the bowfront. I'd bet yours were hungry in a too clean tank.

I actually saw two cherry's swimming around a bit ago, so I'm hoping this batch will live.

Rick: dunno. Since they eat debris, etc, I don't think they count as far as bioload.


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

I noticed your goldfish pictures. Excuse my ignorance, but are they yours and can you answer a question about my black moor and redcap oranda changing color? The black moor is now orange and black and the redcap's hood has changed white. They look healthy. They're in a 29 ga. by themselves with a giant Java fern which is the only plant I found they wont eat. They have an Aquafilter like a couple of other successful tanks I have. I've never had a redcap's hood turn white.-Paula


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

This is Paula (guppies are fun again). Do you know any other plants that goldfish will leave alone besides the giant Java I have. I have an algae problem on my glass which I have to razor off since they destroyed all my other plants-thanks


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I must of missed your questions.
Color changes in goldies are not unusual. My red ryunkin is totally white now cept for light orange finnage. Black is a really unstable color.

You might try anubias or an amazon sword. What kinda lighting do you have? Feeding veggies every day may help (e.g. peas, green beans, zucchini, lima beans, greens, etc).

I'm not having any luck with the shrimp in the natural planted tank. Two different batches of cherry shimp have been added (40 shrimp) and I can't see any of them. I added some polyfilter after the first batch disappeared hoping that it would help. Didn't seem to cuz I don't see any of the second batch either. I added 8 1 inch long amano shrimp last weekend and I can't see any of those either. I'm pretty sure they're all dead. The snails and plants are doing great.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Don't give up on 'em yet, Betty. My amanos have an extraordinary ability to hide even spare surroundings! And all 4 of mine have been in hiding since I redid my tank. They just started coming out again after a month.

BUT, when i first got them I did lose several to the filter box! They can and will climb out of the tank when they are first added and still skittish. Mine crawled up the filter media into the filter box and I didn't know it until I had already dumped two into the toilet when cleaning the filter box! I've heard many stories of shrimp jerky on the floor too.

But I bet you will be surprised in a few months when they start coming out. Until then, drop sinking pellets into the thick areas where they might be in hiding. I bet you still have at least some amanos!


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Betty,

Sorry to hear about the lost of all those shrimp.

I just want you to know that it has nothing to do with a natural tank. I have cherries in tanks set up as in Diana's book, which I have since removed the power head.

The cherries are fine and have reproduced in one of the tanks.

I have one amano which is doing fine. Need to get more.

I had bought a different batch of amanos, which did exit the small QT tank, I think to a spike in temp.

I have also heard of someone stating that his fish caused amanos to exit a tank.

They do like to hide in small places.

Have you checked for copper in your tank.

Have you seen any molten skin. I usaully see the molten skin, more often then the shrimp themselves.

Good Luck, they are a delight to watch.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Thanks guys... I hope at least some of them survived. I'm feeding the tank daily, so if they're there, they won't starve. I know some survived in the 125 NPT. the polyfilter should have removed any copper from the water.


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Hi Betty,

When you mentioned polyfilter, I assumed quilt batting so the shrimp do not end up in the filter.

You said:
the polyfilter should have removed any copper from the water.

What kind of polyfilter are you talking about. Is there a new type which is treated, like the one with carbon or the one to remove phosphourus. Carbon does not remove copper very well so I am wondering what you are using, if of course there is copper (or other metals) in your water

I only know of the water conditoners to either chelate or precipitate metals.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

We do have copper in our tap water. I used Prime to treat the water when I first set it up and it chelates heavy metals. The topsoil has also released quite a bit of tannins.

The Poly Filter is supposed to adsorb a bunch o stuff including copper, lead, chloroform, ammonia. They also say it:
"sorbs excess organics such as amino acids, proteins, lipoproteins, dissolved organic matter, all forms of phosphates, tannins & humic acids and related complexes. Poly-Filter® also sorbs volatile organic chemical such as chloroform, bromoform, benzene, phenols and organophosphate insecticides/pesticides. All metabolic wastes are sorbed by Poly-Filter®."


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dear Betty,

Sounds like metal toxicity from the copper. The zinc in my tapwater killed my precious Peruvian shrimp. 

Chelators bind the metals, but they also release them. Probably like the "photo-reduction of chelated iron" (my book, page 167). Only here its copper instead of iron. 

So chelators are not a permanent, full-proof solution, especially when you've added something (the polyfilter) that removes the chelators, tannins, etc. Anything that removes organics is removing the protective metal chelators.

If you've not run the tank without the polyfilter, then you could try that. The water conditioner and constant tannin release from soil might be enough to keep the copper bound up and shrimp safe.

However, if that hasn't worked, then I would try to remove the copper from your water before you ever add it to the tank. You could add the tapwater to a holding tank. Add a water conditioner with a metal chelator like EDTA. Then run the water overnight through a charcoal filter or polyfilter(?) that removes organics. Then the water should contain much less metals. The natural organics in your tank should take care of the remaining metals.

I would be careful with big water changes. My shrimp were fine with small water changes with its small zinc input. It was a big 50% water change that killed them; they immediately became hyperactive. I dismissed this unusual hyperactivity, but the next day they were dead.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Tried it both ways... without polyfilter first... then with polyfilter. The water in the 20 gallon NPT is still yellow even with the polyfilter.

I've had terrible luck this year with apple snails as well. A friend of mine in OKC has given me two different batches of healthy looking young apple snails. The first set died in the 125 NPT. The second set died in a normal 55 set up with an UGF. So I've been worried that something has changed in my tap water.

I added 20 ghost shrimp this morning to my 20 long which is set up as a normal tank with a UGF. If it's the water, they should croak too... right?


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Betty thanks for the info. I had not noticed this newer "Poly Filter" product before. (Not as if I look at filter related stuff.)

I would assume the ghost shrimp would die, if it something thats stays behind, or takes longer to disipate. I do hope you figure out what is wrong. Since you are losing snails as well. It could even be a temporary gas or something? Something you would not be testing for. 

Is it something that would effect the shrimp after a water change or no matter how old the water is.

Is it posssible there are to many metals for the water treatment to chelate all of them. Even if the Poly Filter will remove the metals, maybe it is not fast enough for the shrimp to suffer from metal presence in the water?

Good Luck and keep us posted on this most troubling issue.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So far, so good. There are still ghost shrimp running around foraging in the 20 long. We'll see what happens when I do partial water changes this weekend. Any idea how to vacuum without sucking up shrimp?

Oh and check out what I just found! Called our local DEQ to check on our water. 
http://sdwis.deq.state.ok.us/index.jsp
Put in the name of your city and you can find all sorts of info on your tap water.

I found out I've been reading the water quality report wrong and was thinking the safe limit for copper was the amount in our water. It's not. We hardly have any copper in our drinking water and no lead to speak of. The only thing that I can find that's been an issue is fluoride.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Interesting. Just called the water quality people here in Norman. Here we have a water treatment plant that supplies most of the water, however there are around 30 wells that come into various parts of the distribution system. The water for where I live comes mainly from the treatment plant rather than being mixed with well water. Tthe only thing they could think of is aluminum is at 1ppm coming out of the water treatment plant. The fluoride violation was at a water well, not in the distribution system.


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Hi Betty,

I am glad the ghost shrimp survived in the 20Gal Long tank.

Aluminum is toxic. I am assuming it would be chelated.

I do not know if ghost shrimp are less sensitive the Red Cherry Shrimp. I have read that other shrimp are more sensitive.

May I suggest an experiment.
You take a couple of the ghost shrimp and put them in each of the other tanks. This way if there is a problem with the tanks, it may show up. Do very small water changes for now, just incase your tap water is an issue.

I hate vacuuming the gravel, for the simple reason of all the small snails, and fry that get in. I have found shrimp to be much more nervous and avoid the tube. When I vacuum I do so in a bucket and check for anything that may have end up in the bucket. 

For water changes, I keep a screen on the end of the hose. It clogs easily, so I need to clear off the stuff that collect at the bottom. When flow slows down I remove the stuff by the screen.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi Betty,

I'm sorry to hear about your Shrimp losses. I also have had substantial losses lately, and posted an inquiry over on "Fish Bowl" of Aquabotanic. I've been wondering about copper in the fish food. I was really surprised to read that Copper Sulphate is an ingredient in the foods I began feeding over the summer. 

I've NOT gotten much feedback about my copper-food suspicions, but I've stopped feeding the fish foods that contain copper in the tanks with shrimp in them. You might want to read the ingredients. 

I hope the ghost shrimp stay well!
-Jane


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Jane, I just checked the ingredients on my foods since I've had good luck with my shrimp (no losses in 11 months of shrimp keeping, with the exception of 2 immediate losses after purchase 11 mo. ago) and feed lots of different foods. All but one of my foods contain either copper sulfate or copper "proteinate." So these foods should be safe. I've had amanos the longest and recently got 4 ghost shrimp who are still healthy.

Betty, good luck sorting out the shrimp and snail issue.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Oh, on another issue---I've noticed that my shrimps' favorite food is smushed MTS! They go nuts, come out of hiding and start searching all over the tank as soon as they smell the "escargot!" And we all have MTS to spare, right







? Live, or rather "fresh," natural food must be better for them than fish food too.

They also appreciate cooked spinach, especially the amanos. As "snail people," y'all probably already feed spinach. I will soon find out if they like pond snail too







since those guys are getting populous already!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yea, as I understand it, copper is a trace element that's needed by the body.

The ghost shrimp are still alive and well.

That's a good idea putting the ghosties in the other tanks... however there is so much plant cover, it would be difficult to know whether they were gone... or just not hanging out at the front of the tank.

I wonder if shrimp are more sensitive to pH swings... or high pH. My smaller NPTs' pH swing by almost a full pH point. from 7.8 up to 8.6 depending on what part of the light cycle is happening.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Betty, I just discovered that amanos are active at night after lights-out and their eyes glow red in the room light when the tank light's off (like cats' eyes at night) so maybe you could spot some foraging shrimp with a flashlight after the lights have been out a while. Mine seem completely uninhibited in the dark while they still prefer cover during the day. Maybe you'll finally see some shrimp!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I'll do that... Thanks!!!


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

javalee


Thanks for the tip about the flashlight.


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

My original questions were about goldfish and plants and algae problem, but now I'm a little interested in shrimp to keep down hair algae-on my Java fern in my two 20's. Do you think they could do that? I had a mess of val. and no algae and can't remember why I got rid of the val. I had a great jungle of plants and it was great. (fluorescent lighting-cool white and aquarium light). Hornwort, duckweed crypt are doing well in those tanks, but waiting for some type of sword to take over in both tanks. I want another jungle! Might have to get some more val...Thanks for excellent advice. Goldfish tank is in window with thin curtain and very little if no direct sunlight thru curtain. Plants will grow, but goldfish eat or terrorize them. Will try Amazon sword again. I have one that almost died when I put it outside and now it's small but neglected in a ten ga. of guppies near window. Will also try to get the giant Java growing which the goldfish leave alone.......It'd be nice to know if shrimp get red of Malaysian, and ramshorn snails which I used to be plagued with.-Paula


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

P.S. A "message" sign popped up. I have no idea how to answer it. Sorry if it was you-Paula


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

A message pop up means you have received a private message. You could have clicked it to open your message, if not:

On the top of the page where you see the "GO" click on that,

where you see "private messaging" and click on that.

Hope that helps.

Red Cherry shrimp do not eat Malaysain trumpet snails (MTS)or ramhorn. At least from the number of snails that I have. I do not have many Amanos to see if I would notice them eating many snails.

Seeing MTS on the top of the gravel during the day may indicate a problem with the substrate, at least that is what I have read in a few places. They usually borrow during the day, I see a few on top of the gravel. In the early morning there are many more, a couple of hours later, I do not see many.

Amanos are better at algae control, they eat more algae then the Red Cherry shrimp.

Either way, I do not think they will be good for a large problem. I think they are good at keeping it clean, once you eliminate most of the hair algae.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Just a quick update. The ghost shrimp still seem fine in the 20 long even after a 75% partial water change last weekend. and no shrimp sightings in the 20 NPT.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Betty, glad you're successful with the 20 long. 

I just wanted to share my happy surprise. My one female amano is full of green eggs as of this morning. She's clinging to a java fern leaf directly under the filter spray and periodically flicking her swimmerettes to aerate them. Neat!!

I've had her for a year almost and these are her first eggs. I think it must have something to do with me having just raised the GH of the water that's normally 1dGH up to 8dGH. I've been reading about raising the larvae in salt water. At the least, they'll be a nice live snack for the fish. Anyone else tried raising the larvae?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Awsome!

I did some reading and it doesn't appear that keeping the baby shrimp alive is easy. It'll be interesting to see if having them in a natural planted tank works for that.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Cool Javalee! Miss Japonica must be happy if she has eggs! I've read that salt or brackish water is necessary to raise the larvae. Here is an interesting article on Amano Shrimp:

http://www.jayscustomcomputers.com/wilma/Articles/page1.html

That is interesting that the Amanos like MTS. Yeah.... I've got plenty of those! Javalee, do you smush them with your bare finger? I read a rather scary first-hand acccount by a lady who got a "mystery" infection from smushing a snail against the glass in her aquarium. Here, I found it (by the same person, I think)

http://www.uniquaria.com/articles/snails.html

Well, I'm glad your Ghost Shrimp are doing well, Betty!
-Jane


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Jane, thanks for the links! I think I may have a few weeks before I have to move Mama and eggs which is a good thing.

I've been thinking about what caused her to suddenly make eggs, and in addition to the higher GH in the tank, I've also been dumping foods in there like crazy in an attempt to raise the nitrate level since I re-planted six weeks ago.

That's scary about the infection from snail-smushing. Sounds to me like it was a staph infection, but who knows. I always wash thoroughly after smushing, and as cool as snails are, they are also pretty "icky" as far as all the nasties they must carry! I need to come up with a safer smusher! Thanks!


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hey Javalee,

I got some inexpensive plastic putty scrapers (in a dollar store, I think). I use them to scrape algae, and also when I'm putting snails in for my loaches - use it to crack the shells instead of my finger. 

Years ago in college I took a Parasitology course, and snails are intermediate hosts and/or vectors for a LOT of stuff!

-Jane

oh, and PS - that makes sense that the increase in food would increase the fertility!


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

TO ENDLERSMOM. tHANKS FOR ADVICE (DEC.21,2005) ABOUT SHRIMP ETC. STILL CAN'T GET THOSE MESSAGES THO. Must be computer-Paula


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