# What's ok to add



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hey guys- I'm feeling a little confused about what sort of nutrients one can expect to add to a NPT. My tank doesn't appear to be growing- some of the plants are looking tired, a little yellow and generally unenthusiastic (namely the swords and java fern). 

Recently I redid the tank because I suspected stagnation of the substrate. Upon tearing it up, I was right- the fine substrate between the soil and gravel I had used created a cement-like barrier between the two. I removed it, added more of each to balance out the depth and still no improvement.

My CO2 is still practically non-detectable. How do I improve this? For a 40 gal. tank I only have 14 fish- is this not enough? Should I be dosing it with trace nutrients? The KH and GH are both acceptable (I don't have the numbers in front of me, though). 

For lighting I'm running 2 x 55w for about 4 hrs w/ a 3 hr siesta, followed by another 7 hrs on. Fish are happy, snails are doing alright, floaters gallore... 

What's missing?


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

I suppose the whole idea of an NPT is that you shouldn't really need to add additional ferts instead the plant food comes from fish waste and soil - ideally you get a balance with the amount of fish/plants/light. You say you only have 14 fish are they large fish? 
If you want more plants than the fishload/soil can feed then add more food (or even ferts). If not you will probably find that you get to a point where plant growth begins to slow and algae may start to appear this for me is a sign that the tank needs a good prune. 

I would also think about reducing the amount of floating plants as they are probably out competing the other plants for nutrients which may be the cause of the java fern and sword plants showing signs of hunger. 
For those that don't add ferts you quite often have to play referee between thuggish plants that dominate and those that linger barely hanging on. You can either just grow the plants that do well or thin out the thuggish plants.

Do you have both lights on for the 4+7 hrs? I have 2 tubes one is on for 10 hrs and the other for about 5 hours this I find means less growth so I don't have to prune as often.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yes, I have heard that ideally nothing should be added. However I've noticed in other posts, people (included diane walstead) have recommended certain ferts as a back-up plan. 

They are not large fish- 4 are med. sized gouramis- all the others are tetras and small clown loaches. 

I do run both bulbs at the same time- my lamp doesn't have independent switches.

The floaters aren't too crazy- I have had to thin them but judging from past experience, they could be a lot more "thuggish." 

Thanks for the input!


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

What type of substrate are you using? Just normal sand/gravel (1mm ~ 3mm) or are you using MTS?

MTS will give you long term stable nutrients (along with the fish poop) but it will take awhile for plane gravel/sand to accumulate mulm let alone wither what your using has decent CEC or not.

- Brad


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> Fish are happy, snails are doing alright, floaters gallore...
> 
> What's missing?


Could it be that the swords and java fern had floaters right above them blocking too much light?


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

What a beautiful tank. The Gouramis are stunning. I'm sure they appreciate the shade that the floating plants provide. Deficiencies in K+ and Magnesium can cause yellowing of the older leaves. For now, I've been adding Equilibrium. It has trace amounts of K+ as well as Ca, Mg, Fe and Mn.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

What was the fine layer you used between the soil and the gravel that created such a hard barrier? It could have something to do with your plants suffering a bit if it was caustic et cetera and they may just need time to get it out of their systems.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

It was a fine substrate designed for planted tanks- Ebony I believe was the product description. I thought it was going to be more black and larger in grade. Instead it was gray and sand-like. :-/ I occasionally dose the tank with Flourish but this doesn't really seem to make any real difference so I do it somewhat half-heartedly. 

Still no good CO2 production. More food= more snails= more headaches. Not sure what else I can do. I'm reluctant to buy more fish since I'm moving in two weeks. I guess I'll do more trouble shooting after I drain and reinstate the tank after the move.


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi Emily,
Good luck with the move.
I think Java ferns like moving water. So a little water flow nearby makes them happy. Good water flow also prevents dead spots; nutrients/CO2 move around the tank. Plant growth is dependent on a number of different factors, such as sunlight, mineral nutrients and CO2. The availability of these may vary, such that at any given time one is more limiting than the others. Growth is controlled not by the total of resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor). EI was developed with this in mind to reduce limiting factors. With plenty of light, your nutrients and CO2 are the limiting factors to be considered. You can try to guess what's limiting your plant growth and causing yellowing leaves (low K+ levels; Mg, Fe, CO2, ect.,) or reduce the amount of light. A modified EI non CO2 method could also be an option.

Is it possible to run only one 55w bulb for the first part of the day? If it is, you can get very creative with your lighting, (1.4 wpg part of the time with one light and two lights for a midday peak.) If not, then CSM+B or Seachem flourish equivalent (flourish comprehensive and/or equilibrium) to provide mineral trace and CO2 enrichment might be something to consider. I like a NPT. There are some creative displays of what can be done with this method. It depends on what you want to do.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> It was a fine substrate designed for planted tanks- Ebony I believe was the product description. I thought it was going to be more black and larger in grade. Instead it was gray and sand-like. :-/ I occasionally dose the tank with Flourish but this doesn't really seem to make any real difference so I do it somewhat half-heartedly.
> 
> Still no good CO2 production. More food= more snails= more headaches. Not sure what else I can do. I'm reluctant to buy more fish since I'm moving in two weeks. I guess I'll do more trouble shooting after I drain and reinstate the tank after the move.


I can't imagine that plants would grow well with a cement barrier between gravel and soil! Makes the soil severely anaerobic.

Now that you've removed the barrier, it seems like plants would start to improve, but then I'm wondering if whatever is in the Ebony reacted with the soil particles? Also, I wonder what kind of soil you used. You may have to start over. Your plants are clearly unhappy with this substrate.

I advise people to use an inch of unfertilized potting soil (e.g., Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix) covered with 1 inch or less of gravel or sand. Its that simple. DataGuru gives excellent step-by-step instructions for setting up an NPT on the forum stickie "Useful Procedures".

With a potting soil substrate, you won't have to measure CO2. You'll see the gas bubbles!


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> With a potting soil substrate, you won't have to measure CO2. You'll see the gas bubbles!


I attest to this. I see CO2 bubbles all the time in my small NPT w/ a male Betta. Some Green algae grew during the 1st week, cleaned it up and planted a few more plants and by the 3rd week its there's no algae.


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## Tentacles (Jun 25, 2006)

With yellowing plants I'd be cutting out the siesta to see if that makes a difference. Some plants can't tolerate a break in their day. Better to run lighting continuously for a shorter time.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok, this may be convenient since I'm moving in a few days and I have to at least get all the fish out anyway- maybe I'll try a different soil. I never see bubbles- and honestly rarely ever did. Thanks for the brand specifics on potting soil- I can never find anything in stores that doesn't have perlite or ferts in it and I'm afraid to gamble. I'm also wondering if I have too much gravel- right now I have closer to two inches. That probably doesn't help circulation. 

I don't think it's the siesta periods- I've been doing that for a long time now and only after this last re-do have plants been dieing. Now I'm seeing holes appearing in the leaves and suspiciously few snails. Time for action... Thanks again!


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