# Can you do "to many" water changes?



## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

I've been having some issues with my water. 

I do the Ei dosing, but something strange is going on, and I've been loosing fish, and I also have cloudily water.

I did 2 50% water changes on Saturday, would be ok to do one again today?

If so how does this effect your EI dosing? I'm thinking that doesn't reset the tank, right? So if you add what you always add you would be putting to much into the water right?

So basically 2 questions -
1. Would it be ok for me to do another water change?
2. After the water change do I put more ferts in the water? (this would be my 3rd water change this week.)


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## kakkoii (Jan 18, 2008)

your tank is going through a nitrogen cycle. It only happens when you put new water in a brand new tank with new media in it. your fish are basically doomed unless you move them into an "aged" tank. If you don't have another tank give them to a friend with an "aged" tank. You could just leave the fish in the tank and hope for the best.

sorry I cant help much maybe someone with great experience can help you.

-kakkoii


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

But my tank isn't going through a cycle. The tank is really old, and all the water stats are fine.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

IME as long as the water is treated with dechlorinator (assuming it's tap water) and of a similar make-up to the tank water then you will be fine doing 50% water changes every day for a couple of days. I obviuously wouldn't recommend this for too long though! After you've done your water change I would dose both macros and micros to get the fertiliser levels back up again.


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## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

If you are changing water then you should put back whatever you got out by changing the water.For example if you changed 80L then you should dose for 80L when you fill back the tank.If you are new to dosing nutrients it wouldn't hurt if you used some test kits until you 'master' your dosing technique.Don't forget that so frequent water changes can shock and stress your fishies..


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> But my tank isn't going through a cycle. The tank is really old, and all the water stats are fine.


You have been asked 100 times by people what your water stats are and you refuse give out that information. You can do water changes every day foreever and it will not hurt anything as long as you don't have drastic temp changes. Adding EI fertilizer will not cloud your water. Adding EI fertilizer will not kill your fish, unless you are adding too much of any form of nitrogen. Ammonia is a form of nitrogen and clouds your water. Ammonia kills fish. Period. Unless you are some how contaminating your water with some unknown poison, then it couldn't be anything else. No matter how you spin it by re phrasing the question or no matter how many different forums you go to. Doing constant water changes will mess up your fertilizing regime, and it would prevent your tank from cycling if it was a new tank, but other than that it won't matter one way or the other. Thats my opinion. Maybe Ed feels differently.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

Robert Hudson said:


> You have been asked 100 times by people what your water stats are and you refuse give out that information. You can do water changes every day foreever and it will not hurt anything as long as you don't have drastic temp changes. Adding EI fertilizer will not cloud your water. Adding EI fertilizer will not kill your fish, unless you are adding too much of any form of nitrogen. Ammonia is a form of nitrogen and clouds your water. Ammonia kills fish. Period. Unless you are some how contaminating your water with some unknown poison, then it couldn't be anything else. No matter how you spin it by re phrasing the question or no matter how many different forums you go to. Doing constant water changes will mess up your fertilizing regime, and it would prevent your tank from cycling if it was a new tank, but other than that it won't matter one way or the other. Thats my opinion. Maybe Ed feels differently.


Robert - 
Thanks so much for your post. I"m a little confused though. I've reread through my post, and it doesn't look like anyone as asked me for my water stats. You said I have been asked "100" times what they are. Am I missing something?

As far as doing water changes every day and not hurt anything - I don't agree with that. It is possible to do them so often that you mess with the bio. of the tank. More most planted tanks, doing EI dosing - once a week is ideal.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

According to your album, the tank is relatively new. You could just be seeing issues typical of cycling, and a new tank. 

Also, you have 130W of lighting over a 25 gal.  That's a lot of light, man. That alone will make it that much harder to get this tank to mature and balance. I would suggest to you to cut that down in half until your tank stabilized, and then if you feel the need to, increase the lighting. If you are new to this, I would suggest to you getting a couple of cheap test kits for NO3 and PO4, and calibrating them with known solutions so you know they work accurately. Then keep track of how much of these 2 nutrients you're actually accumulating in your tank. I have 2 - 50's (around 2.4wpg) and I dose the same amount of NO3 and PO4 weekly, which you claim to be adding 2-3x/wk.

IMO, doing 2-3 water changes per week will not hurt anything. 

My 2 cents.


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## Markalot (Feb 14, 2007)

> according to your album, the tank is relatively new. You could just be seeing issues typical of cycling, and a new tank.


The album shows when he started to 'scape' it. I think that's what I read anyway.



> and it doesn't look like anyone as asked me for my water stats


Well someone has at least once now and you failed to provide then at least once. 

Cloudy water and fish gasping sounds like a cycling tank, or a mini-cycle. Could your bio-filter have been hurt? Tests would be key, please provide them (that's 2 requests now).

Ammonia
NitrIte
NitrAte

Once everyone is sure that your bio-filter is functioning and your tank is cycled then the plant experts (not me) can better help figure out what's going wrong.


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## tkos (Oct 30, 2006)

Also take some water out ina clear cup, hold up to a white sheet of paper. See if it is a white bloom or greenish. Greenish would be algae, whitish would be bacterial. And that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the tanks cycle (as in high ammonia etc...). Bloom occur when there is too much food for the bacteria to deal with. They expand to fill the niche and this, bloom. Also it is not always the nitro- bacteria. There are lots of types of bacteria in a tank.

As far as fish are concerned, there is no such thing as too many water changes. As far as plants? Well some types don't take kindly but you have to decide what os more important. I know of people that do essentially 50-75% water changes daily on things like discus tanks in order to keep them healthy. Bettas often get 100% daily water changes if kept in smaller containers that aren't filtered.


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## MonopolyBag (Jan 11, 2008)

Robert Hudson said:


> You have been asked 100 times by people what your water stats are and you refuse give out that information. You can do water changes every day foreever and it will not hurt anything as long as you don't have drastic temp changes. Adding EI fertilizer will not cloud your water. Adding EI fertilizer will not kill your fish, unless you are adding too much of any form of nitrogen. Ammonia is a form of nitrogen and clouds your water. Ammonia kills fish. Period. Unless you are some how contaminating your water with some unknown poison, then it couldn't be anything else. No matter how you spin it by re phrasing the question or no matter how many different forums you go to. Doing constant water changes will mess up your fertilizing regime, and it would prevent your tank from cycling if it was a new tank, but other than that it won't matter one way or the other. Thats my opinion. Maybe Ed feels differently.


Calm down, he stated his water stats are fine. And he never"refused" to state them, nor was he asked hundreds o times.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

To answer your question, I don't think you can do too many water changes. Just add some ferts back in. Don't get too hung up on the exact amounts. It's suppose to be an "Estimative Index". 

Two things I noticed with your tank is the high light as well as the substrate: Aquasoil.
If you stir that stuff up during an uprooting or rescape it will cause problems especially with the kind of light your running.

Whether your tank is cycled or not, just keep doing water changes. Most of the bacteria is not in the water column, but is adhering to different parts of the tank. If your tank is not densely planted make sure you don't destroy the bacteria in the filter since this can cause a problem.


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## ranchwest (Jul 17, 2005)

rick4him said:


> Robert -
> As far as doing water changes every day and not hurt anything - I don't agree with that. It is possible to do them so often that you mess with the bio. of the tank. More most planted tanks, doing EI dosing - once a week is ideal.


So, why did you ask the question?

Doing water changes is just fine. Just try to keep the water stable, especially the temperature and try not to boost the pH too much. Also, too much chlorine/chloramine in the water can "mess with the bio. of the tank" so the chlorine/chloramine needs to be dealt with. These factors might mean that smaller water changes are easier than big ones, but that's your call. Changing a lot of water is not necessarily inherently bad.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

MonopolyBag said:


> Calm down, he stated his water stats are fine. And he never"refused" to state them, nor was he asked hundreds o times.


Ha, ha thanks.

I came home to a "green water" tank today. Here are today's stats (which I don't consider these stats fine by the way)

Ammonia - 0
nitrite - .25
nitrate - 0
phosphate - 2.0
gh - 140
kh - 90
ph - 6.6

thoughts? Suggestions?


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## Markalot (Feb 14, 2007)

Ammonia - 0
nitrite - .25
nitrate - 0

You are cycling, nitrite should always without question be 0, so should ammonia and nitrate should be > 0 depending on the plant load.

So what you are seeing is a green algae outbreak due to ammonia in the tank. The ammonia is gone but now you're in the nitrite phase. 

Get a bottle of Prime and dose according to directions to detox the nitrite. Continue to monitor ammonia and nitrIte every day until the levels return to 0.

Questions (apologies, just covering the basics here, no tone intended); Do you know what the nitrogen cycle is, are you familiar with the bacteria needed to complete the cycle, and have you been caring for this bacteria by always keeping your bio-media wet, always rinsing the filter with tank water or dechlorinated water, and never tossing all of your media at once during a filter cleaning.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

yes - I am. This tank isn't a new tank - it's been set up for about 5 years. In Aug of 2007 I changed out the substrate to ADA aqua soil and powersand. I saved the old water, and old filter media.

Why am I going through this cycle? Is it becuase I did some "rescaping" to my plants? I put this UV thing in I got from petsmart in the tank today - will that help?

Also should I be doing several water changes a day? 

It looked like Pea soup when I came home today. It started out cloudy when on Saturday, and then it turned green today when I came home. Is this how it normally works?

Also I'm not sure if you have seen the pictures of my tank, but I do have alot of plants in the tank - I feel like my nitrate's should be 10-20, maybe I need to dose some more ferts.


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## Markalot (Feb 14, 2007)

How did you save the old filter media? What about any bio-media? Did you let it float in old tank water?

We know something bad happened to it, maybe it wasn't living where you thought it was? Those little critters aren't good at following directions. 

I would dose with Prime and change the water whenever nitrItes got above .5. Everyday testing and water changes when needed should get you through it. Hopefully it's a mini-cycle and there is some bacteria left to build on.


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## captain_bu (Dec 13, 2007)

Rick according to your online tank journal you replaced your Eclipse bio wheel filter with an Eheim 2215 on 2/23. What old filter media, if any, was transferred into the new filter? Generally it is best to run an existing filter concurrently with a new one for about a month or so until the new filter has established its biological filtration. The combination of disturbing your aqua soil while moving plants and having a filter that is not fully established may be what is causing your tank to cycle again.
You also made a number of changes to the tank this past Saturday prior to your fish deaths/green water issue. 

The following are from your post yesterday on the Barr Report
"On Saturday I added a spraybar, an inline reactor, and 4 card. tetras. I also moved some plants around." 

"I also added a heater. I didn't have one hooked up as I live in Texas, and my temp is always around 73 or in my tank. However I added a heater to keep the temp a constant 78 degrees, even at night."

"I don't know what's going on. I've lost all but one of my tetras. (7 total) and I'm pretty sure some amanio shrimp have died as well."


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

Markalot said:


> How did you save the old filter media? What about any bio-media? Did you let it float in old tank water?
> 
> We know something bad happened to it, maybe it wasn't living where you thought it was? Those little critters aren't good at following directions.
> 
> I would dose with Prime and change the water whenever nitrItes got above .5. Everyday testing and water changes when needed should get you through it. Hopefully it's a mini-cycle and there is some bacteria left to build on.


Well I just tested my nitrite's again and it is at 0. HMMMM. is this normal right after a water change if the tank is cycling?

Also I had a bunch of ceramic o rings that I used in my bio wheel system. I went to an Eheim 2215 and I dropped those ceramic o rings into it. The filter worked well (crystal clear water ) for two weeks before this bloom.

That's what I was referring to.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

captain_bu said:


> Rick according to your online tank journal you replaced your Eclipse bio wheel filter with an Eheim 2215 on 2/23. What old filter media, if any, was transferred into the new filter? Generally it is best to run an existing filter concurrently with a new one for about a month or so until the new filter has established its biological filtration. The combination of disturbing your aqua soil while moving plants and having a filter that is not fully established may be what is causing your tank to cycle again.
> You also made a number of changes to the tank this past Saturday prior to your fish deaths/green water issue.
> 
> The following are from your post yesterday on the Barr Report
> ...


Yes that is correct. However adding the spray bar, and the inline reactor shouldn't effect the bio. of the tank should it?

Also I've moved plants around several times in this tank, and have never had an issue like this with my set up. Actually in five years of having planted tanks I have never looked at my tank and saw green water.

I did a water change about an hour ago. (50%) - some have suggested I do 2 water changes a day. What are your thoughts on this? Also I'm not understanding how these changes could have caused such a water issue. I've never had anything like this happen to any of my tanks...


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Yes, right after a water change your nitrites would be zero.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

goalcreas said:


> Yes, right after a water change your nitrites would be zero.


So when will I know if my nitrites truly are 0, or if they are going to go back to the .25 number?


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

You should come home every day and do a test.
If they are measuring nitrite in small amounts treat with prime.
If it is back up above .5 do a water change.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

goalcreas said:


> You should come home every day and do a test.
> If they are measuring nitrite in small amounts treat with prime.
> If it is back up above .5 do a water change.


Ok - so your saying if the color of the test is anything other then that real light sky blue - I need to add 2 drops per gallon of prime. and if it is at the light purple level I need to do a 50% water change?

I still don't understand how, or why all of this started.

Like I said in 5 years I have never had an issue like this.


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## captain_bu (Dec 13, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Yes that is correct. However adding the spray bar, and the inline reactor shouldn't effect the bio. of the tank should it?
> 
> Also I've moved plants around several times in this tank, and have never had an issue like this with my set up. Actually in five years of having planted tanks I have never looked at my tank and saw green water.
> 
> I did a water change about an hour ago. (50%) - some have suggested I do 2 water changes a day. What are your thoughts on this? Also I'm not understanding how these changes could have caused such a water issue. I've never had anything like this happen to any of my tanks...


The reactor should be more efficient than the diffusor you were previously using. If you didn't make any adjustments to your bubble rate the amount of CO2 in the water may have increased. I mention this more because of the fish deaths than the green water. More CO2 will also increase the uptake of ferts from your water column. I believe you have multiple issues going on with your tank so it is hard to separate cause and effect. The spray bar should do nothing more than distribute the water (and CO2) around the tank differently than the "shepards crook thing" you replaced it with but it is a change of sorts.

This past week you not only moved plants around again but added the 4 cardinals and 6? ammano shrimp. This increased your bioload which has been fluctuating the last few weeks as you added and removed the apistos that died and the clown loaches which you realized were going to get too big for the tank. I believe a number of people on PT felt your tank was overstocked. So the reality is your tank has had a lot of recent changes and no time to stabilize between changes. As for the 5 year reference, you weren't using aqua soil the entire 5 years and no one can comment on that time period since we don't know what the history of the tank has been. It looks like you have only joined the various forums in the past month.

I don't think the water changes are causing any problems with your tank. It is probably a combination of things but perhaps a huge piece of the puzzle is that the media you moved from your Eclipse filter was not sufficient to properly seed the new filter. The clarity of the water would be from the mechanical filtration working properly but the biofiltering capabilities may have been compromised. Problems don't necessarily manifest themselves overnight, it can be several weeks after a change is made before you notice a problem. That is what makes some of the diagnosing so hard.

My biggest piece of advice for you would be to start keeping a daily log and write down everything you are doing to the tank, daily dosing amounts, CO2 levels & bubble rate, changing of photoperiod, adding/removing fish, moving or trimming plants, water changes etc. It will be a big help in tracking your tanks recovery from the mess you are having (hopefully being able to see on paper what finally worked and learning from it) and in diagnosing any future problems. If you post the log along with your tank journal and keep it filled in accurately it will also help people to help you in the future. At this point so much of the information/history of your tank is spread over multiple threads on multiple forums it makes it hard for anyone to get a good overview.


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## captain_bu (Dec 13, 2007)

rick4him said:


> I still don't understand how, or why all of this started.
> 
> Like I said in 5 years I have never had an issue like this.


Did you ever have a high tech tank before? Except for the aqua soil which you said was 8 months old your tank seemed to be a stock Eclipse system up until a few weeks ago. I can't remember if you were using DIY CO2. On 2/17 you added pressurized CO2, on 2/23 a new filter and a new hood increasing your lighting to 5.5 wpg, a lot of the plants seem to be new, you have been adding new fish and shrimp, a reactor, a heater etc.. In other words about the only thing 5 years old at this point is the tank itself.


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## rick4him (Feb 23, 2008)

captain_bu said:


> Did you ever have a high tech tank before? Except for the aqua soil which you said was 8 months old your tank seemed to be a stock Eclipse system up until a few weeks ago. I can't remember if you were using DIY CO2. On 2/17 you added pressurized CO2, on 2/23 a new filter and a new hood increasing your lighting to 5.5 wpg, a lot of the plants seem to be new, you have been adding new fish and shrimp, a reactor, a heater etc.. In other words about the only thing 5 years old at this point is the tank itself.


Ha,ha your right. (and some of the orginal water - even when I made changes I tried to keep as much as the water as I could.

This is my frist high tech tank. I was using a red sea yeast co2 method for the last 1 1/2 year or so. Many of the plants are new yes, and I did add some new fish. I guess I think account for how much new media was in my new filter and your right, the filter probably wasn't up to par to handle all the changes. So how do I recover from this ? How do I get my tank, and filter strong again?


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## captain_bu (Dec 13, 2007)

rick4him said:


> H So how do I recover from this ? How do I get my tank, and filter strong again?


Well if it was my tank I would be tempted to chuck it out a window and start over.... just kidding of course... but if it was my tank the first thing I would do is cut back to only using one bulb until I got the tank stabilized and balanced then look to slowly add the second bulb to the photo period gradually while re-balancing the tank for the increased light... you will have to adjust your ferts and CO2 for the light increase. More light makes it harder to balance the tank and the smaller the tank the quicker it goes south from problems. Hopefully the UV sterilizer will get rid of the green water, keep up with water changes to remove excess ammonia and nitrites and try to make sure that your drop checker is giving you an accurate reading on your CO2 levels which need to be stable. Maybe send for the ADA knockoff drop checker that people have been buying off of e-bay and see if you get different readings. I am not sure if all drop checker solutions are created equal either. It couldn't hurt to buy a different type to try and see if your readings change. Other than that leave things alone for a couple of weeks as the filter matures and the tank parameters get a chance to stabilize. Don't add any more fish or shrimp and don't disturb the substrate. Try to learn a bit more about aqua soil and why it is suggested to minimize disturbances to it.


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## Markalot (Feb 14, 2007)

Hey Rick,

how long did it take you to change the tank and filters? Were you ever an extended period without fish? Remember the bacteria needs food so if you floated the biomedia (rings or whatever) in water without fish for a couple of days most of the bacteria would have died off. 

Just checking, I don't have any other good suggestions except keep testing and change when needed.


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## lauraleellbp (Jan 31, 2008)

Rick, you also left out the 6-day old brown Purigen and rotten egg smell. And that this water originally looked yellow to you.

Just when I thought I'd read ALL your threads, I find this one too!

Again, lots of pieces of info spread out across several different forums and I've lost count of the # of threads... lol

I'll stand 100% behind when you have dying fish you need to prioritize their needs over plant fertilizing. Keep up the PWC, keep checking those water parameters, and let's see if it is hydrogen sulfide or green water (or maybe one followed by the other...)


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## captain_bu (Dec 13, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Rick, you also left out the 6-day old brown Purigen and rotten egg smell. And that this water originally looked yellow to you.


The brown purigen and the yellow water could also be at least partially from the driftwood added to the tank on 2/25.

Rick, did you boil the driftwood to release some of the tannins before you added it?


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## ranchwest (Jul 17, 2005)

This may be the best thread on aquarium management that I've ever read. It wouldn't be much better if it were scripted.


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## chagovatoloco (Nov 17, 2007)

I have a 30 gallon tank and I couldn't control the algae with out going to a 6 hour photo period ,I have the same light, and I have debated about using one bulb. I agree that you should cut down to one bulb and a short photo period. I have also read that with aqua soil there are little to no fert dosing needed. I would try only one dose of micros and macros a week, or better yet don't dose until you see a need. One of the advantages of aqua soil is that it is full of ferts so little are required. Cycling is very important with a non planted tank but not as much with a planted one. Dian Walstad explains this in her book, 25% in the filter and 75% in the tank. I think that algae you have is stopping photosynthesis and not causing the plant to uptake fish waste. Backing off the light will cut down algae and make plants grow and work as a natural bio filter.


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