# How much PAR do I have



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I have the following LEDs on my 75 gal tank and want to estimate the PAR.

2 x 48" LED strip lights that I placed on top of the glass to cover the rear half:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-48-LED-L...hash=item3d2fb2b5e1:m:mPHvG4uNw2HEPubEFdu-y6Q

3 x submersible LED lights that I tied inside the tank on the front and side rims to cover the front and sides.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-30-40-50...hash=item542c6404a2:m:mtRFblM_fiTErusNeSF3PYw

The combined LED has a total of 112 watt and 13416 lumen or approximately 1.5 watt per gal. Note that the total wattage and lumen are only estimates because there is no lumen rating for the submersible, and the wattage is estimated from rated (not actual) 0.2 to 0.5W diodes.

Presently, I am trying low light plants (Anubias, Java Fern, Bolbitis and Buce) and they grow very slowly and some didn't even make it. I am providing daily double Excel dosage to supplement carbon. I want to know if the lighting level is sufficient and whether the slow growth is caused by light or CO2 limitation.


----------



## Mystery Roach (Jul 10, 2017)

Hello Tiger15, what are you using for substrate? What is your lighting cycle? Are you dosing ferts? If so what, how much, and at what intervals? How often are you doing water changes and how much do you change? How long have the plants been in there. I'm not familiar with all of those plants but some of them are slow growers.

~Roach


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I have dolomite gravel substrate. But all my plants are epiphites, so I don't plant them in the substrate but attached to rock. I provide two photo periods, 5 hour in the morning, and 5 hour in the evening with a siesta period in between. My tank is not a typical aquatic garden tank with plants the focus, tiny schooling fish supporting. I keep medium to large cichlid, and do weekly 75% water change to keep nitrate down. I don't dose ferts, assuming that my heavy fish load will generate enough nutrients, and my plants are low light type. The tank has been set up for 20 years to keep fish only, but with plants only in the last 4 months. I see very slow growth in most plants and slow death to some. I have BBA problem initially, but algae is under control after I began daily Excel dosing.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't know of any reliable method to guess the PAR that lights will produce, unless you have some data for those lights or some that are nearly the same. But, you can rent a PAR meter and determine the PAR accurately. See http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/131882-fs-rent-apogee-par-meter.html


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Hop, if I could get a PAR meter, I wouldn't have ask for PAR estimate. I am only interested in a rough PAR estimate to determine whether my light is in the insufficient, low or moderate range. I think I have provided sufficient data (lumen, watt and dimensions of the tank) to make that estimate based on your experience in measuring PAR under various configurations. Based on the watt per gal rule, my light would be in the low light range (1.5 W/gal) range. But the rule was based on T8 fluorescent and mine are LEDs, the rule is not applicable.


----------



## Mystery Roach (Jul 10, 2017)

Dosing Excel will only give you 1/4 to 1/3 the plant growth that CO2 will provide. I would recommend buying test kits for Nitrate and Phosphate. Your weekly 75% water changes may be causing a nutrient deficiency for your plants. I dose my tanks daily right before the lights come on with 2mL Excel per 10 gallons water, and 5mL per 10 gallons after a water change. Simultaneous to when I started dosing Excel I began dosing ferts twice a week. Once right after a 50% weekly water change, and then again in four days. I tested my Fert levels for several weeks to ensure that the tanks maintained the desired levels.
Note: If you dose Excel with an amount that exceeds the manufacturer's recommendation it's important that you do weekly water changes.

I kept up that routine, watching the plants hourly for growth. ;-)
After a couple months I sort of stopped paying attention to the growth, while still maintaining the dosing regiment and water changes. Then it dawned on me one day that some of my plants had more than doubled in size! I was like, WOW! Most noteworthy was my Water Wisteria. A beautiful color of green plant that is fast growing. I love that plant. Soon after that I noticed that my Anubias barteri 'Coffeefolia' had grown noticeably larger and had added leaves. My tanks had been up and running for over two years before I began dosing Excel and ferts, so to me this seemed sudden, but it likely took several months to occur. But prior to that I saw almost no growth since after the plants had used up the nutrients in the soil.

Below I provide some hours of research I spent on ferts for planted aquariums, where I adapted my findings to Excel dosed tanks.

The ferts I purchased are from Green Leaf Aquariums. They get added to measured amounts of RO water in order to sufficiently dissolve prior to being added into my tanks. (Whereas some folks add dry ferts to their tanks, which is likely fine).

*KNO3 - Potassium nitrate* 
*Usage:* Is used to primarily dose nitrates (NO3).
It has the side effect of dosing a small amount of potassium.
*Instructions:* Mix 1.5 teaspoons into 1/2 cup of water.
*Dosage:* 1.0 ml of this solution will add 1.08 ppm of NO3 to 10 gallons of water to reach a Nitrate goal of 10-20ppm. You will also get the side benefit of dosing 0.68 ppm of Potassium in your 10 gallons of water at the same time.
*Benefits:* Nitrogen is a major component of chlorophyll, the compound by which plants metabolize sunlight energy to produce sugars from water and carbon dioxide (i.e., photosynthesis). It is also a major component of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins.
*Deficiency:* Poor plant growth, and leaves that are pale green or yellow because they are unable to make sufficient chlorophyll. Leaves in this state are said to be chlorotic. Without proteins, plants wither and die.

*KH2PO4* -	*Monopotassium phosphate*
*Usage:* Is used for dosing phosphates (PO4).
*Instructions:* 3/4 teaspoon into 1/2 cup of water.
*Dosage:* 1.0 ml of this solution will add 0.53 ppm of PO4 to 10 gallons of water to reach a phosphate goal of 1.0-2.0ppm. (I add .75 mL per 10 gallons)
*Benefits:* Phosphates stimulate root development, increase stalk and stem strength, facilitate more uniform and earlier maturity, increase nitrogen N-fixing capacity, improve quality, increase resistance to plant diseases, support continuing development throughout entire life cycle.
*Deficiency:* Plants will appear stunted in growth and often have an abnormal dark-green color.
Sugars can accumulate and cause anthocyanin pigments to develop, producing a reddish-purple color.

*CSM+B* -	*Plantex CSM+B*
*Usage:* Is used for adding trace minerals, Macro Nutrients and Iron.
*Instructions:* 3/4 teaspoon of CSM+B powder into 1/4 cup of water.
*Note:* Shelf life is limited without preservatives.
*Dosage:* Dose 1 ml of this solution per 10 gallons of water. You can go higher or lower than this dose based on the observation of your aquarium.
*Benefits:* (see deficiency).
*Deficiency:*
*Boron:* Death of stem and root apical meristem, leaves twisted, young tissue most affected.
*Cobalt:* used for nitrogen fixation, same as nitrogen deficiency signs (stunted growth).
*Copper:* Young leaves dark green, twisted, wilted, tip remains alive.
*Manganese:* Chlorosis of young leaves, with smallest veins remaining green, necrosis between veins.
*Molybdenum:* Chlorosis, twisting, death of young leaves.
*Zinc:* Reduced leaf size, shortened internodes, chlorosis, spotted leaves, older leaves most affected.

I hope you find this to be helpful.
Note: Comments on Fert dosing Excel tanks totally welcome!
~Roach


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Thanks for the information. But my question is about light, not about nutrients at the present time. I want to know my light regime, whether I have adequate light for low light plants at the minimum.

My nitrate level before weekly WC is about 10 ppm. I had delayed WC by a couple weeks and my nitrate had gone up to 20 to 30 ppm, indicating that the nitrate loading is faster than uptake. I am ordering phosphate and iron test kits to check other parameters soon. My tank is not a typical planted tank with heavy plant mass and light fish load. I have heavy fish load and moderate plant mass. Here are pics of my initial set up. Some plants grow slowly (Java fern, small leaf Anubias and Buce), others barely survive with zero growth (Bolbitis and large leaf Anubias), and some died slowly (Amazon sword and Cryto). 

I tried DIY yeast CO2 injection for a couple weeks but it didn't work out. There wasn't enough CO2 bubble generation, and it's too labor intensive for me. I just ordered a pressurized CO2 system to see if it makes a difference. It's a science project for me, checking and balancing out which parameters are limiting. I have kept fish for a long time, but keeping plants is a lot more challenging which I am finding out.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Mystery Roach said:


> Dosing Excel will only give you 1/4 to 1/3 the plant growth that CO2 will provide. I would recommend buying test kits for Nitrate and Phosphate. Your weekly 75% water changes may be causing a nutrient deficiency for your plants. I dose my tanks daily right before the lights come on with 2mL Excel per 10 gallons water, and 5mL per 10 gallons after a water change.


There is no reason to dose 5 ml/10 gallons after a water change. All that does is stress the plants that are sensitive to Excel.


> Simultaneous to when I started dosing Excel I began dosing ferts twice a week. Once right after a 50% weekly water change, and then again in four days. I tested my Fert levels for several weeks to ensure that the tanks maintained the desired levels.
> Note: If you dose Excel with an amount that exceeds the manufacturer's recommendation it's important that you do weekly water changes.


Excel breaks down in the tank within about 24 hours, so it isn't necessary to do water changes to avoid a buildup of Excel. The water changes are to avoid buildup of the basic fertilizer compounds.


> I kept up that routine, watching the plants hourly for growth. ;-)
> After a couple months I sort of stopped paying attention to the growth, while still maintaining the dosing regiment and water changes. Then it dawned on me one day that some of my plants had more than doubled in size! I was like, WOW! Most noteworthy was my Water Wisteria. A beautiful color of green plant that is fast growing. I love that plant. Soon after that I noticed that my Anubias barteri 'Coffeefolia' had grown noticeably larger and had added leaves. My tanks had been up and running for over two years before I began dosing Excel and ferts, so to me this seemed sudden, but it likely took several months to occur. But prior to that I saw almost no growth since after the plants had used up the nutrients in the soil.


I have found that adding DIY CO2, even at low levels, greatly improves plant growth, with the Excel helping to avoid BBA attacks that the irregular CO2 levels would otherwise encourage.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

tiger15 said:


> Hop, if I could get a PAR meter, I wouldn't have ask for PAR estimate. I am only interested in a rough PAR estimate to determine whether my light is in the insufficient, low or moderate range. I think I have provided sufficient data (lumen, watt and dimensions of the tank) to make that estimate based on your experience in measuring PAR under various configurations. Based on the watt per gal rule, my light would be in the low light range (1.5 W/gal) range. But the rule was based on T8 fluorescent and mine are LEDs, the rule is not applicable.


I would guess 15-22 PAR, just a guess but low light for sure.
Tank having 6 square feet of surface area.
Even distribution, light through glass?
13416/6=2236 lumens in a 12x12" square @ 21" depth.
But I am just guessing.

Hope it helps some.


----------



## Mystery Roach (Jul 10, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> There is no reason to dose 5 ml/10 gallons after a water change. All that does is stress the plants that are sensitive to Excel.Excel breaks down in the tank within about 24 hours, so it isn't necessary to do water changes to avoid a buildup of Excel. The water changes are to avoid buildup of the basic fertilizer compounds.
> 
> I have found that adding DIY CO2, even at low levels, greatly improves plant growth, with the Excel helping to avoid BBA attacks that the irregular CO2 levels would otherwise encourage.


Thank you for your input Hoppy. I have read many of your replies to people over the years and I have always appreciated that you so freely share your knowledge with others. I will follow your advice on the Excel dosing amounts.

In regard to DYI CO2: With DYI I was concerned about the potential for bottle explosion, the maintenance time involved, and as you mentioned, irregular CO2 levels. I didn't think of continuing to add Excel with that method. Great idea!

The "Paintball" solution, along with adapting a larger CO2 bottle peaked my interest a while back. However, I haven't done enough research to see if that method has been accepted as a cost effective solution for adding CO2. Do you have any thoughts on using a "Paintball" system?

Thanks again,
~Roach


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't think there is any question that the most cost effective CO2 setup is a really cheap regulator and a 20 pound CO2 bottle. The cheapest way to get into CO2 is a yeast/sugar DIY CO2 system. I'm not saying either of these is the best system, just cost effective. (A really cheap regulator will make you swear so often you may lose your significant other, so be sure to factor that in!)


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I personally would take a cheap regulator over DIY any day of the week. DIY is simply too manual a process to keep up long-term. MOST will not do this, let alone do it consistently enough to have stable co2. In addition there's a danger to livestock since for the most part you can't turn it off at night.

I admit the cheap regulators are obviously not high quality, but I've been using a Milwaukee without issue for 10 years, an Azoo for probably around 7 years. If you truly want to see the difference co2 makes, go pressurized its well worth it.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> I personally would take a cheap regulator over DIY any day of the week. DIY is simply too manual a process to keep up long-term. MOST will not do this, let alone do it consistently enough to have stable co2. In addition there's a danger to livestock since for the most part you can't turn it off at night.
> 
> I admit the cheap regulators are obviously not high quality, but I've been using a Milwaukee without issue for 10 years, an Azoo for probably around 7 years. If you truly want to see the difference co2 makes, go pressurized its well worth it.


You don't need stable CO2 if you are also dosing Excel (Metrocide 14). The manual process is to refill one of the two bottles once a week, about a 15 minute job. And, except for smaller tanks, with 2 liter bottles, you won't get enough CO2 to harm the livestock. Choosing the size bottles most appropriate for your tank size will make DIY CO2 safer than pressurized CO2.

The primary advantages of DIY CO2 are the very low cost of setting it up, and the ability to experience the huge difference it makes in how your plants grow. But, no one would ever claim that either a DIY system or a Milwaukee regulator is even close to as good as a quality regulator assembly with a pressurized system. If you can find a way to afford it, always get a good quality regulator, with a good needle valve, and you will never regret it.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> You don't need stable CO2 if you are also dosing Excel (Metrocide 14). The manual process is to refill one of the two bottles once a week, about a 15 minute job. And, except for smaller tanks, with 2 liter bottles, you won't get enough CO2 to harm the livestock. Choosing the size bottles most appropriate for your tank size will make DIY CO2 safer than pressurized CO2.
> 
> The primary advantages of DIY CO2 are the very low cost of setting it up, and the ability to experience the huge difference it makes in how your plants grow. But, no one would ever claim that either a DIY system or a Milwaukee regulator is even close to as good as a quality regulator assembly with a pressurized system. If you can find a way to afford it, always get a good quality regulator, with a good needle valve, and you will never regret it.


You don't need stable co2 if your dosing excel? For what purpose, algae control? Many plants will only grow well with stable co2.

There are a ton of people using Miwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek brand (all about the same quality) Never had an EOTD or anything else happen. I do nothing but change the cylinder every 6 months or so.

Again not saying they're the greatest, but many times they are used by newbies who break them or are purchased used (already broken).

There's just no way I got 10 years out of mine if it's essentially worthless and I never changed the needle valve either. The vast majority of people will not do a manual process consistently compared to what an automated process gives you.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

No one said any particular brand of regulator is "essentially worthless". We are happy you have had good results with yours, and it is fine to report that. Hoppy has given a fair explanation of the advantages and disadvantages of DIY CO2. And yes, Excel used with DIY CO2 is for algae control.

Don't be argumentative, especially in someone else's thread.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> ...Many plants will only grow well with stable co2.
> 
> ...


I agree with that. Most of us, I think, only want to be able to grow a variety of plants, so we can make an aquascape that we enjoy. If we have to give up the ability to grow certain plants, that doesn't interfere with our ability to do so. What it does is encourage us to save up so we can afford a better system next time, perhaps after we have learned enough to have a good chance of succeeding with more demanding plants.

I apologize for interrupting the discussion about light with a discussion about CO2.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I tried DIY CO2 for two weeks and gave up. It's too labor intensive for me, and my baker yeast didn't generate enough CO2. I am on travel 1 to 3 weeks regularly, so DIY will not work for long term. I just experiment with DIY to see if CO2 is beneficial before moving into pressurized CO2. 

I have decided to leap forward and bought a Miwaukee regulator and 10 lb CO2 cylinder. By eliminating CO2 as the limiting factor, I'll find out if light is limiting growth. I bought a phosphate and iron test kit ,along with my nitrate and pH test kit, to test if any nutrients are limiting. I couldn't find any reasonably priced potassium test kit though. I prefer to approach it scientifically instead of jumping into blind EI dosing, so I'll adjust one parameter at a time. Having heavy fish load, moderate plant mass, and growing only low light epiphytes, my set up is not a typical planted tank and I'll test if fert dosing is needed.


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

Hoppy, why do you say dosing 5 ml/10 gal after a WC is bad? That's the instructions.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

JustLikeAPill said:


> Hoppy, why do you say dosing 5 ml/10 gal after a WC is bad? That's the instructions.


When API began selling their version of Excel they reported results of a test they did, comparing their product to Excel. They dosed their product, which is very similar to Excel, using their directions and Excel was dosed per Seachem's directions (5 ml per 10 gallons at water changes and on first set-up). The Excel dosed tank had the expected die back of some plants, followed by normal Excel result growth. The API product gave immediate Excel result growth, with no die back. API interpreted this as a demonstration of how much better their product is. But, all it really was was proof that dosing 5X at water changes and initial start-up is a really bad idea.

Excel and other glut based products last about 24 hours in the tank, before they deteriorate. That means we have to dose daily to get the best effect. The 5X dosage has no added effect except for the first day, so it cannot be a good practice if you are using Excel just for the carbon it supplies. If you are using it to kill algae there is no reason to use 5X dosage except possibly when first starting to dose an algae infested tank.

Seachem made a mistake when they set up a 5X dosage as the proper way to use Excel. I wish they would correct that mistake.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

If you dose 5x excel, you will attain 2 ppm toxic level to kill algae according toxicity test results The daily 1x dosage will not, and is only good for furnishing carbon. Hobbyists found that 2 ppm will also harm sensitive plants such as Val's and moss. A daily 2x dosage will attain 0.8 ppm, likely to suppress algae, but won't harm sensitive plants, so it's the best middle ground. I blelieve Seachem recommends water change 5x dosage as a shock treatment for algae, following Glut manufacturers instruction to shock treat cooling tower water. If you don't have any sensitive plants, I don't see the harm to do infrequent shock treatment.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

tiger15 said:


> ...If you don't have any sensitive plants, I don't see the harm to do infrequent shock treatment.


I agree. The harm is only to the sensitive plants.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> I agree. The harm is only to the sensitive plants.


The issue is knowing which plants are sensitive. I read that Val's and moss are sensitive, but there can be other species out there that are also sensitive which I don't know. Being new to planted tank, I have tried only a handful of plants, mainly anubias, Buce and java ferns. They are tough leaf plants and I can attest that they are not bothered by 5x excel.


----------



## Boug (Dec 6, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> I have the following LEDs on my 75 gal tank and want to estimate the PAR.
> 
> 2 x 48" LED strip lights that I placed on top of the glass to cover the rear half:
> 
> ...


Tiger what depth is your tank? the will largely determine the PAR values, I am interested because I cant get enough PAR in my 150 gal 22" deep tank. I have a .5w beamswork rgb and white lights. the total wattage is irrelevant.


----------



## Boug (Dec 6, 2017)

mystery roach,

what depth is your tank and what lights are you using?


----------



## daboca (Apr 8, 2018)

It varies a lot. I heard that we may need 300 to 500 PPFD...


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

daboca said:


> It varies a lot. I heard that we may need 300 to 500 PPFD...


If you are referring to the light intensity at the substrate level, you will never need that much light. A good light level, even when using pressurized CO2, is 100 or less. 60 will be enough for most plants.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> There is no reason to dose 5 ml/10 gallons after a water change. All that does is stress the plants that are sensitive to Excel.


Ya know i did an experiment about.... half a month ago, with excel in my 40b, i had some minor string algae i wanted to Push to the limits... So i dosed about 7 cap full(s) of the chemical into the tank and didn't experience a single plant die off *in any leaves, even the java moss which is highly senative to excel*
But the string algae did die, before i dosed the 7 cap full(s) i did Lead it up to that one more capful a day. like Monday-1 Tuesday-2 etc. Im sure if i kept dosing that 7 everything would have been fine, but it was merely a short experiment.

But i will say i do dose excel once in a while, no specific schedule and i dont have any issues. I dont even measure it (yes i know, im not "careful) i usually dose around 5 capfuls which is many X's the recommended amount.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A few years ago many people were dosing Excel at 5X the recommended dosage, and doing it routinely. I don't recall what caused people to stop doing it. What stopped me from that was a lecture from Tom Barr who pointed out just how dangerous playing with high dosages of Excel could be. I did some Googling after that and decided I would play it safe. As I recall, the active ingredient is carcinogenic at higher concentrations.

Later I killed off a lot of vals by overdosing, which reinforced my decision to limit my dosing to around 2X. But, I'm not surprised that you can dose 7X and more without harming your plants when you don't have vals.

I'm becoming annoyed by the clado algae that is trying to thrive in my tank, so I may cross my fingers and up my dosage to 5X+ for awhile. (I do use Metrocide 14 instead of Excel, which does increase my actual dosage. Every time I dose it I wash my hands thoroughly immediately.)


----------

