# [Wet Thumb Forum]-What it means to be Dutch



## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I think there is some sort of confusion with Dutch style tanks. It is not the "red plant style" tank by any means. As Wheeler commented, these tanks use far less red than Amano. These tanks are very formalized. Groupings are very tight, segregated from the other plant groupings in the tank.
Red plants are used only as the occassional accent (usually Alternanthera reineckii and Ammania gracilis are used). Plant choice is also very similar. 75% of the tanks seem to have Alternanthera reineckii, Lobelia cardinalis, Rotala indica, and several others. If I was told that one person made all these tanks, I would not find it hard to believe.

Since many often comment that there aren't many examples of Dutch tanks, here are some pictures from the NBAT contest:

By Th. Koster (3rd place in NBAT 2002):










By P.J.W. Engelen (4th place in NBAT 2002):










By W.J. Zaal (2nd place in NBAT 2001):










By van A. Ruyten (1st place in NBAT 1985!)... as red as it gets for the Dutch, this one is titled "Rod Planten":










By J.C. v.d. Berg (3rd in NBAT 2001):










By F. Teeuwen (5th in NBAT 2001):










Hope these help,

Carlos

ps I know I've posted this elsewhere, but I
am hoping I am showing these tanks to as
wide an audience as possible.









-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I think there is some sort of confusion with Dutch style tanks. It is not the "red plant style" tank by any means. As Wheeler commented, these tanks use far less red than Amano. These tanks are very formalized. Groupings are very tight, segregated from the other plant groupings in the tank.
Red plants are used only as the occassional accent (usually Alternanthera reineckii and Ammania gracilis are used). Plant choice is also very similar. 75% of the tanks seem to have Alternanthera reineckii, Lobelia cardinalis, Rotala indica, and several others. If I was told that one person made all these tanks, I would not find it hard to believe.

Since many often comment that there aren't many examples of Dutch tanks, here are some pictures from the NBAT contest:

By Th. Koster (3rd place in NBAT 2002):










By P.J.W. Engelen (4th place in NBAT 2002):










By W.J. Zaal (2nd place in NBAT 2001):










By van A. Ruyten (1st place in NBAT 1985!)... as red as it gets for the Dutch, this one is titled "Rod Planten":










By J.C. v.d. Berg (3rd in NBAT 2001):










By F. Teeuwen (5th in NBAT 2001):










Hope these help,

Carlos

ps I know I've posted this elsewhere, but I
am hoping I am showing these tanks to as
wide an audience as possible.









-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Those are certainly thought provoking aquariums Carlos. Thanks for posting them.


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

Thank you for the little lesson. Ive always been unsure between the types of aquascaping and now I know what dutch is so thank you for that.

Andrew


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by tsunami06:
> I think there is some sort of confusion with Dutch style tanks. It is not the "red plant style" tank by any means.


I didn't realize there was confusion about this. From my understanding it's the tight and well-manicured groupings that were the hallmark of Dutch aquascapes. Is there some source that's emphasizing the use of red plants instead?

_____


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## Slappy (Mar 2, 2003)

All are very nice tanks, though the 1st picture is the most pleasing to my eyes.

----------------------------
Fish Slapping Extraordinaire


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

I think it is all about contrast. 

Each plant is distinct, and different from it's neighbors. Sometime form is a part of the design, triangles or circles or square forms, but the form only serves to distinguish one plant from the next. 

It is not about tension, or mystery (a la Amano). It is not about subtle color combinations (as in James's American tank). It is more a "perfect plant collection". I suspect that a large part of the art is in the growing of the particular plants, or growing them together, but without that knowledge, of this or that being difficult or rare, that part is lost to me.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I was trying to find the link for this last night! Thanks!

I disagree anona, how can you say that!







Look at these pictures... they have contrast, they have color, they have depth of field, and they use the golden triangle principal They are very carefully designed... why do people call dutch tanks "plant collections"! Thats the second time I have heard that this week! ACCCCCKKKK!

Carlos, I see a lot more red than just Alternanthera in these pictures. Their photo quality is not that good so its hard to distinguish for sure. This competition is judged live, not by photographs. I don't understand your comment about they were all designed by the same person. You have each persons name by the tank and each looks distinctively different. So what are you saying?

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Mon November 24 2003 at 05:29 PM.]


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by tsunami06:
> As Wheeler commented, these tanks use far less red than Amano.


I'm not familiar with previous topic on "american style" but I just looked at Adana.kr website to double check and I found only few tanks out of ~70 tanks which have red plants in them. Even without looking at either setups, I could swear that Amano uses less "reddish" plants then Dutch aquascapers.

As for as Dutch tanks above, don't let those colors fool you. Those pictures are far from being 100% true colors. They are either scanned with poor quality scanners or taken with low-end camera. Plus don't forget about "yellowish - 5000K" bulbs which are preference in most of Dutch tanks.

I looked at all the tanks from above website.

-------------
Regards,
Jay Luto


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Carlos, I see a lot more red than just Alternanthera in these pictures. Their photo quality is not that good so its hard to distinguish for sure. This competition is judged live, not by photographs.


Well, let's see. The first tank has the
Nymphaea lotus, the stand of Rotala indica,
and a third red plant peeping out of a corner.
The overall effect is still pretty green.

The second tank has the small grouping of
Alternanthera reineckii and another of
Ammania gracilis.

The third only has the Ammania gracilis. The
Rotala indica under the Vallisneria is
potentially red.

The aquascapes in these tanks are by far
dominated by green. I see red accents, but
none of the tanks is especially red.



> quote:
> 
> I don't understand your comment about they were all designed by the same person. You have each persons name by the tank and each looks distinctively different. So what are you saying?


Well, these tanks are very formalized. They
follow very rigid rules, which makes them
very similar to each other. They even have
similar plant choice. Similar plant choice, 
similar style, and very similar basic design...
I mean that if we didn't have the names of
the tank owners and someone would tell me
that all these tanks were made by the
same person, I would have no problem
believing that. Years of competition rules,
satisfying judge's expectations, etc does
that.



> quote:
> 
> Even without looking at either setups, I could swear that Amano uses less "reddish" plants then Dutch aquascapers.


Not the best place to look. A very large
portion of Amano's big tanks are composed
of slower growing anubias, ferns, crypts, and
moss. Nature Aquarium World Book 2 is a better
place to look where he uses stem plants heavily... one of them is even called
"Colored Autumn Scroll" because of the many
red colors -- macrandra, wallichii, nesaea,
ammania, ludwigia ovalis in something
as small as a 10g!



> quote:
> 
> Plus don't forget about "yellowish - 5000K" bulbs which are preference in most of Dutch tanks.


I would think that 5000k bulbs would
bring out the most intense reds because of
the higher emission of visible light in the
red part of the spectrum. However, I don't
think the red colors of their plants would
be especially vivid. Remember that all of
their tanks are 90 gallons or more... and are
deep. The average amount of light they use
is 1.8-2.0 wpg normal flourescent. The lack
of enough lighting shows in the way
their plants grow perfectly upward (little
sideways growth), bare stems in some pictures
(#1... look under the Hygrophila difformis), and the traditional use of gravel showing in
the foreground.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well if you look at all of amanos work, I think you will see he has done several different things. He has even done some that look more Dutch influenced.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I agree.









Amano has tried an enormous variety of designs
from lush wall to wall stem plants to 
stark rock placement in a hairgrass field.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

The Nature Aquarium style, as defined by Amano, has changed (he says "evolved") substantially from its humble beginnings. It will continue to change as Amano continues to learn and experiment.

Regards,

Art


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Holy Cow, Art's alive! How are you?


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I agree with Jay, those photos look like regular film processing without any correction for white balance (pre or post development). They remind me of my old photos before finding a good developer who does custom work or before going digital. Most of those photos are washed out and everything looks green, in real life they are far more colorful and contain more red than what we are seeing.

In my own little "bubble", I consider Amanos work to be more aimed at replicating a natural scene, often using less variety of plants and concentrating on making something look natural using wood, rocks and formations that one would find occuring naturally. The dutch style instead seems to be an abstract picture made of many groupings of plants and little wood, rock or similar fomations. It's rare to see 3-4 different plants mixed into a single bush in these tanks, amano seem to do this often to give a sense of natural, random blending.

I also feel that Dutch tanks are more aimed at growing plants than creating a "Feng Shui" aquascape with golden ratios, trigonometry and focal points. I'm guilty of the same, I stick with a similar design for years in favor of the plants' health rather than re-designing the tank over and over. It used to be all about the plants some years back, today aquascaping and design has come under the spotlight and for many of us we have todays digital photos to compare with the older style of tanks whose film photos often don't show the true colors in the tank. So color IMO has little to do with distinguishing between these two types of styles.

Similar changes have taken place in other hobbies where digital has allowed us hobbists to get true to life photos that compete with the pros. Look at amature astrophotography for example, since CCDs came out our old film photos look like they were taken through a plastic lens







Colors always depended on the film type, fuji brought out the reds and Kodak the blues/greens, that was about the best thing we had to correct white balance short of taking individual RGB frames









Regards
Giancarlo Podio


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Phil Edwards:
> Holy Cow, Art's alive! How are you?
> ...










Hi Phil. Yes, I am alive and well. Been away a little while, but I'm back. How are you?

Regards,

Art


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Can someone clarify the "American" interpretation for the meaning of a "Dutch aquarium?"

I'm from Switzerland and in the fish hobby for nearly 45 years. Our German, Dutch and Swiss friends maintained tanks since the 1940's and here is our meaning of a "Dutch" aquarium...

"A Dutch aquarium has a main emphasis on plants rather than fish. These tanks have dramatically fewer fish than normal tanks. The plants are carefully groomed and kept from intergrowth with each other." Aquarists mixed as many variety of plants as was available to them.

There was never a decided thought to limit the use of red plants. It was lack of available red plants coupled with most requiring more intense lighting, which were the limiting factors. Some people would shine spotlights on their red plants. This might be why there were so few in a tank. 

The "German" style of aquarium was dramatically void of ornamentation and looked sparten compared to a Dutch tank. 

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I'm doing really well Art. It's really good to have you back. I just have one problem...you should have given me your crypts before dumping them!


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

Phil,

Fortunately, I didn't dump them. They were all sold on eBay except for a few choice ones I gave away to local friends. 

Now I need to go back and ask for some cuttings to get started again.

Regards,

Art


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

There are actually locals in Miami? I have yet
to meet one, even after years in the hobby.

Within the first month in Chicago, I meet up
with a couple dozen fellow hobbyists...

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

Hi Carlos. Nice to meet you. I am one of the few born and raised Miamians. There are very few, if any, aquatic plant hobbyists here. It is unfortunate as most of the growers are here.

Regards,

Art


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Well, there are at least two aren't there?








I still have my 55 gallon running back at home
in Miami, fully planted with pressurized
CO2 and PCs. I tend to specialize in stem plants.
Everything grows really well in our tap water,
even Tonina.

Maybe we can stop by, trade, chat sometime?

I know there are Miamians out there that are in
this hobby though... they buy my plants off
Aquabid all the time.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

Sure, happy to meet, trade, chat.

I am getting back into things now. I'm selling off my saltwater items and will again set up my 58g as a planted tank. My interest is in growing plants more than on the aquascaping side. I grew crypts for a long time.

Regards,

Art


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey folks,

I'm sorry, I got this whole thread off track. Let's get back to the discussion of Dutch aquascaping.

Thanks,
Phil


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## VincentTan (Mar 19, 2004)

Hi folks,

From my humble understanding, the essence of Dutch tanks is the depth and selection of plants.

May i emphasize the term "selection of plants" again. It is very very important in a Dutch tank.

Each type of plants is carefully considered for its growth rate, colour, shade, leaf shape etc etc.

Take a look at Pic 4. The plants contrast each other be it in leaf shape or colour. Two similar leaf shape plants are not placed together. It is this contrasting effect that creates a sense of depth.

All in all, a dutch tank setup is like a underwater garden, tended by a very diligent gardener.

CHeers
Vincent


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

That's exactly my understanding MooMoo. We had many picture books with instructions on design concepts and lighting techniques. You would laugh at what people went through to get enough light.

Another major consideration is the way the tank was displayed in the room. Custom cabinets completely covering the tank incorporating it into the wall was a standard fare. This made the cost extremly high. The cabinet was a common practice partly due to the very small rooms of so many Dutch homes. The goal was to keep the entire room in consideration as the tank was the main decoration. Most people would never consider a metal stand or any hardware showing in the room. 

Sorry I no longer have all those books to post pictures for all of you. Our parents NEVER allowed us the extravegance of such a tank, lol. 

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## VincentTan (Mar 19, 2004)

Hi,

I am currently setting up a Dutch setup tank. It is sitting on a concrete stand dividing my living room.

I even went to the expense of getting an external reactor and minimize the tubings in the tank to get maximum planting space.

After 3 months of trial and error, I am still at the stage of getting the correct plant for the best look.

Cheers
Vincent


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

No one said it was easy Moo, lol! But good luck and share some pictures if you can. James and many others here have such a great eye and give fantastic suggestions to people, when asked. I belive it's just not in me to create a tank as beautiful as the others here. I can't even copy then as well, lol. 

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Plants in most/many Dutch tanks:

Rotala indica
Lobelia cardinalis
Limnophila aquatica
Bacopa caroliniana
Alternanthera reineckii
Java moss
Ammania gracilis
Hygrophila corymbosa v stricta
Hygrophila difformis
Saururus cernuus
Hydrocotyle leucocephala
Didiplis diandra
Rotala macrandra
Vallisneria sp
Echinodorus 'Ozelot'

These seem to be some of the most popular plants for the typical Dutch tank done by the
NBAT. Most tanks are, at the very least, composed mostly of some combination of the plants listed above.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Thanks Carlos!

Those are bascially the same plants from our books 40 years ago, lol. Things seem to be a little stagnant. We at Aquabotanic should take on the mission of creating the next frontier in this hobby. There are so many fantastically talented people here that can make it happen!

Regards,
Carlos 

PS - This is going to confuse people, looks like I'm writing to myself, lol.

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## VincentTan (Mar 19, 2004)

Hi,

just to name few plants that made it to my dutch setup tank.

Rotala wallichi
Rotala indica
Rotala macandra
Rotala macandra "green"
Armmania gracillis
Althernandra renekii
Bacopa caroliana
Eleocharis vivipara
Ludwigia arcuata
Ludwigia sp "Pantanal"
Hemianthus micranthemoides 
Proserpinaca palustris
Najas indica
Glossostigma elatinoides 
Hygrophilia polysperma
Hygrophilia polysperma "red" / sunset hygro
Eriocaulaceae sp
Mayaca fluviatilis
Tonina fluviatilis

Cheers
Vincent


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Moo Moo,

What is the size of your tank? It must be huge to hold so many specimens.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## DJ (Nov 26, 2003)

Hi,

If I'm allowed to break into the discussion. I'm Dutch and member of the NBAT which is the Ducth fish society. In my opinion a lot of tanks you describe as 'Dutch' are participants im the annual contest organised by the NBAT and they fall in the A1 category, which is a community tank with fish and plants. There is a set of rules for which points can be obtained in such a contest and (surprisingly) aesthetics is only a minor part of it, if not the least important part. Let me give you a hint of what these rules are, maybe this helps in the discussion.

1. Health of the animals

This embodies things as: have the fish developed to their full size, is the tank big enough for the fish, is the water OK for the fish (just temperature, pH, KH, µS) are schooling fish also kept in groups of at least 15 individuals, do the fish look healthy, are the fish compatible with each other, is the filter adequate for the amount of fish. Is there plant growth at water level for cover? Is the water current OK for the fish?

2. Health of the plants

Are the plants looking healthy, have they grown in the tank or somewhere else (buying them a few days before the contest will be observed, the jury is top-expert level).

3. Biology

Anything related to the well being of fish and plants not already meantioned. For example dry food stored in a hot tank stand will cost you points, you are requested to have water testing stuff available (at least for temperature, pH, KH). In a small chat they will figure out if you know what you're doing, they ask you for example about the conductivity of your tap water. A good amount of real water plants to help biological processes

If you fail on either of these points by just a little, you'll find yourself back in the bottom of the ranking.

4. Safety

Is everything set-up in a way that it is absolutely safe? No ballast in the hood, no overheating of ballast, no electrics to be touched, plumbing OK, no wet feet in case of power failure. No risk of electrocution for yourself, wife, kids or pets. Electricity and plumpbing must be tidy (spaghetti is a bad idea). CO2 (if used) safe? Stability af the tank. etc.

5. Maintenance

Anything else than spotless is not good enough, one scratch in your front pane and they will point it out to you.

6. Aestehetics

In case of a community tank with fish and plants there's a few things you should or shouldn't do

The fish

A. Fill top, middle and bottom zone with fish that will make each zone interesting
B. Schools should be as large as possible
C. Fish size should relate to tank size
D. A couple or a small group of larger fish to catch the eye is appreciated
E. All fish types should be different of shape, color and size.
F. Minimise the number of different fish types

General

G. No algea whatsoever except on walls, stones and wood.
H. There should be no sign of technical stuff (heater, filter, etc.) visible
I. Gravel only visible from the top, not from the sides (where you see dirt.
J. Spotless maintenance, no stains on inside/outside of the glass, stand and hood.
K. Walls must look natural (java moss and fern will do the trick)
L. No glass side or back walls visible
M. Variety of decoration material (walls, stones, wood) to be minimised
N. The stand must be nice.

The plants

O. Limit the number of different plant types to a maximum of 3 types / feet of tank length
P. Max. 2 focal points, usually at 1/3 or 2/3 of the length and depth of the tank. Not only should the focal point itself be pleasing, but the eye should also be guided towards it by groups of plants 
Q. Use plants with different colors, so you need the ligt/middle/dark greens, olive green, orange/yellow green, the purples the reds and the browns. So in reality a real 'Dutch' is never the green wall shown on pictures.
R. Use plants of different shapes (sizes, stems etc.)
S. Neighbouring plants should have maximum contrast.
T. Give impression of infinite depth (no red plants in the back, features in the back should not catch the eye.
U. Phew, I didn't make it to Z.

If the tank can be viewed from different sides than the above must be assessed for each of the sides. So usually there is only one side left open.

You might argue that this list is very long and limits your freedom. It doesn't it is your own choice to adhere to these 'rules', but they do give you a guideline that help you to make the hobby more satisfactory. Furthermore you don't have to learn by trial and error, every small city has it's own local aquarium society where they will help you with their problems (but the abvoe list is usually in the back of the minds of these guys)

Because I want to learn from it and a fresh view on my tank is always welcome, I do participate in the annual contest (at local level) with reasonable succes. The surprising thing is that once experienced it doesn't take too much time to maintain a 'Dutch' aquarium. I need about 2 hours / week for water change, pruning and cleaning up for a tank of ~225 gallon.

To give an idea of my tank:


In cm: 220 x 70 x 60, some 225 gallon I guestimate.
12 fluorescent lightning, 450 Watts
Fish: 22 Hemigrammus bleheri, 16 Gasteropelecus sternicla, 16 Cor. melanistus, 9 Angels, 6 Otos, 3 Farlowella, 3 Crenicara filamentosa
Plants: 20 different sorts, elswhere in this thread already a typical selection is given.
CO2 (pressurised)
Mechanical filter followed by a biological filter (volume 10 gallon) with a water flow of 400 gallon / hour.
25% water change / week (tap water, is chloride free over here), nitrate and potassium fertiliser, Fe and trace elements added

DJ


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Goeiedag DJ and Welcome to the Forum!

Thank you for taking the time to share that information. Are red plants supposed to be used in a limited fashion? What I remember as a child many years ago it was the lack of available red plants that was the determining factor.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## DJ (Nov 26, 2003)

Well, inevitably Red plants catch the eye, so they tend to draw awat the attention from strong points, so usually you don't want too many different sorts of them. If you find a way of creating a balanced aquascape without too mucg distraction you can just fill it with the different reds.

So even now when there are plenty reds available you usually see just one or maybe two real reds in a big tank.

DJ


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