# Help my fish are dying with 50% water change and EI dosing



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

I have a 110 gallon and doing weekly 50% water change and EI dosing. My fish are suffering, they are developming fin rot and mouth fungus (rummy nose and rainbows). 

I have 2 Eheim 2028 running. Co2 is about 30ppm. I dose 1/2 tsp Potassium Nitrate on Odd days and 10ML Flourish on Even days. My tap water already has 3ppm of Phosphate. Plant biomass is light to moderate.

Do I need to get a UV sterilizer?


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Please give more tank specs: how much light? How long has the tank been established? How long have you had these fish? What temps are you maintaining the tank at? What other fishes are kept in with these? There are a lot of variables when trying to diagnose problems and diseases.

EI dosing is used primarily for high light tanks with a heavy plant mass. When you are changing the water what conditioners are you using? How close in temperature is the new water?

MY own rainbows seem to be really happy when I change the water.


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

The tank has been establish via fishless cycle method. It's been set up for about one month now. Photoperiod is 320 watt for 9hours and 452 watt for 2 hours. 10 rainbows, 6 rummy nose, 6 SAEs. Below is my dosing rountine. 


At Water Change Add: 
Sunday Night	1/2 Teaspoon Potassium Nitrate	
1/2 Tablespoon Equilibrium	
1/16 Teaspon of Mono Potassium Phosphate (Optional) 
Monday Morning	10ML Flourish	
2ML Flourish Iron	


Daily Dosing Based On Consumption: 
Odd Days	1/2 Teaspoon EI Macro Mix (4:0:1) - dose slightly less 
Even Days	10ML Flourish & 2ML Flourish Iron


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Water temp is maintained at 76 degrees. New water added is around the same temp.


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## jrIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I always have problems with fish health if I do the water change in the evening or late afternoon, but never if I do it in the morning.

JR


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Are you using a dechlorinator? What kind?


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Nope, I'm not using declorinator. Just straight up tap water. Would a UV sterilizer help?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Get a good dechlorinator. One that removes chlorine and that can also break down chloramine (used more and more by public utilities) AND remove the resulting ammonia. A very good one is Seachem's Prime but there are others out there as well.

A 50% water change with chlorinated water cannot do your fish any good. Stress and unhealthy conditions (such as chlorine/ammonia from chloramine) open the door for infections to appear as the immune systems are weaker...

A UV will not dechlorinate your water.


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

(1) You HAVE to use dechlorinated water, therefore you have to use a dechlorinator. Get Seachem Prime, I highly recommend it. Go get it immediately. Chlorine is toxic and will slowly kill your fish by lowering their immune system and making them susceptible to numerous diseases.

(2) STOP dosing KNO3 and do not add any other ferts until you get the fish health under control. You are adding to the problem by adding additional nitrates to a tank that it only a month old and is probably not cycled properly.

(3) Do ONE MORE 30% water change and use the dechlorinator for the entire tank volume. Add it directly to the tank after the 30% water change as the whole tank needs to be dechlorinated. Once you do this 30% water change do not do anything. DONT ADD FERTS, DONT CHANGE WATER, let the cycling process begin. You have definitely hindered any possible tank cycling by leaving chlorine in your water.


If you have a friend with a cycled tank try to get some gravel, mulm, etc. from him so that you can speed up the process.

Read about this stuff before you rush into it. You have a very large tank and therefore you will need to read a lot. Rushing into this deal is not good.

Good luck,

Ryan


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## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

A UV sterlizer will not help.

If you have added tap water containing chlorine to your tank then its pretty likely all the beneficial bacteria are dead. Add dechlor after emptying the tank and before adding tap water to prevent damage to your fish and killing beneficial bacteria.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

All very good advice.

Apart from the fish health issues you're got a nuclear reactor when it comes to light over this tank. Why so much? You should be able to easily grow anything with 220 watts over a tank of this size. With a light to moderate plant mass I'd recommend no more than this. Your macro & micro dosing seems pretty lean considering you're doing large WC's.

Also, why fishless cylce a planted tank? In fact, why cycle a planted tank at all? Adding nitrate after doing a fishless cycle is kind of schizophrenic if you think about it.


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm getting contradictory advice here. Wood - is telling me that I need to cycle my tank properly which I did. Someonelse - is telling me that planted tank do not need to be cycled. 

Wood, I've done my reading why do you make assumption about my knowledge in this hobby. The fishtank has been completely cycled via fishless cycle method just because I'm annal. I went trough a whole month without any fish to painstainkly cycle my tank even though the consensus is that I don't need to. 

I will take everyone's advice on the declorinator.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Let me explain why I said what I did regarding fishless cycling.

Fish produce ammonia in fairly large quantities as part of their normal metabolism. Ammonia (NH3) is quite toxic to fish, even in low concentrations. Ammonia is freely converted to ammonium (NH4+) in a water solution. In low pH conditions, almost all of the NH3 is converted to NH4+ which conveniently lessens the toxicity for our little critters. African chiclid setups and other high pH tanks are more prone to ammonia toxicity.

Ammonia is converted to nitrite (NO2-) by various bacteria that live on the glass, in the substrate, in the filter, and just about everywhere in the tank. These bacteria take some time to become established. Once they are present in sufficient quantities they quite effectively convert NH3 to NO2-.

Nitrite (NO2-) is also toxic to fish, but less so than ammonia. A different population of bactera will also become established that have the abilitiy to convert nitrite to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is much, much less toxic to fish than either ammonia or nitrite.

So, in regular aquariums (those with no plants), a method to remove ammonia and nitrite from the tank is absolutely essential to avoid a toxic situation. This is why "cycling" a tank is important. Fishless cycling uses the deliberate addition of ammonia to encourage growth of the correct bacteria population. Traditional cycling uses a few hardy fish that act as their own ammonia source. The stocking level of the tank is slowly increased over time to allow the bacteria time to catch up.

In a planted tank, cycling is less important, assuming a sufficient plant mass is present. Plants will preferentially remove NH4+ from the water column to meet their nitrogen needs. They're also pretty good at removing NO2- from the water as well. Ammonia is removed almost as quickly as it's produced, preserving a non-toxic environment for the fish.

The only time that it is necessary to actually add nitrate (NO3) to a tank would be in a situation where the plants are consuming more nitrogen than can be produced by the fish. This is why I'm saying it's schizophrenic to think about properly cycling a tank while at the same time adding nitrate.

Adding chlorinated water will quite quickly kill off the bacterial population of the tank, removing any benefits of "cycling" that was carefully performed over several days or weeks. Chlorine by itself is also quite toxic to fish.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

To add, my aquasoil setups are cycled without fish because of the ammonia from the soil.
It would be at least two weeks before otos and yamatos are put in.


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

johnzhou2476 said:


> I'm getting contradictory advice here. Wood - is telling me that I need to cycle my tank properly which I did. Someonelse - is telling me that planted tank do not need to be cycled.
> 
> Wood, I've done my reading why do you make assumption about my knowledge in this hobby. The fishtank has been completely cycled via fishless cycle method just because I'm annal. I went trough a whole month without any fish to painstainkly cycle my tank even though the consensus is that I don't need to.
> 
> I will take everyone's advice on the declorinator.


First off one person said that you may not need to cycle, but he didn't mean to say that you "don't need to cycle" the tank. Every tank will need to be cycled if you intend to keep fish in it, its just that if you have a densely planted tank the plants can "alleviate" the toxicity of the water during the cycling period by actually absorbing the ammonia produced by the fish waste, essentially picking up the slack that the limited bacteria cannot absorb.

In your case you have not even dechlorinated the water, so you have NOT cycled the tank. Erase the illusion that you "fishless cycled" the tank for a month because without dechlorinating the water you have not allowed bacteria to grow. Chlorine is meant to kill microorganisms, that is why they put it in tap water, pools, etc.

You now are back at square one. Dechlorinate the water in your tank. STOP dosing ferts. Please don't attempt fishless cycle. Get about a total of four or five hardy fish from your LFS (Gouramis are my choice). You shouldn't have territorial problems with the gouramis with such a large tank. Put them in your tank and let it sit for about 3-4 weeks, don't change the water at all, in fact don't touch anything. Feed the gourami's a normal amount. Don't let food sit on the bottom. Plant whatever plants you want during this time, plant densely.

After 3-4 weeks test the water parameters, you should be good. Return the gouramis to the LFS if you don't want them and I am sure you will get store credit.

Good luck.

-Ryan


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

I never knew that by changing 50% water with regular tap water will kill off my exsisting bacteria colony. WoW! I really need to add water conditioner in the future. If I let my tap water sit overnight with an airstone - will that help getting rid of Chlorine?


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

johnzhou2476 said:


> I never knew that by changing 50% water with regular tap water will kill off my exsisting bacteria colony. WoW! I really need to add water conditioner in the future. If I let my tap water sit overnight with an airstone - will that help getting rid of Chlorine?


No. Get Seachem Prime and dose according to the instructions. You will save yourself a lot of time. Prime does not cost much at all.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

johnzhou2476 said:


> I never knew that by changing 50% water with regular tap water will kill off my exsisting bacteria colony. WoW! I really need to add water conditioner in the future. If I let my tap water sit overnight with an airstone - will that help getting rid of Chlorine?


If you are sure you have only chlorine and not chloramine in the water, then the water will outgas the chlorine as you suggest. But, water companies everywhere are changing to chloramines to get longer lasting antibacterial properties. And, that doesn't outgas. Prime, or other similar products, will convert the chloramine to chlorine and ammonia and neutralize both very quickly. Also, water companies don't necessarily tell you they are going to make the switch or when.


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Will all RO unit get rid of Chloramine? I'm seriously thinking of getting on and it's cheap on Ebay.


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow, you are really attempting to complicate things even more. 

R/O water will remove almost everything and you will need to add conditioner (seachem equilibrium) in order to re-add the micro nutrients back into the water that the R/O takes out. Setting up R/O can also be an issue if you don't know what you are doing. You will have to connect it to the water in-line as well as the drain. Buying a cheap one on Ebay is also not recommended. 

Just use Seachem Prime on your tap water...... it isn't that hard to just pour a capful of stuff into your tank...


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## riverspryte (Sep 16, 2006)

*Dechlorinator*

*Top Fin* makes a good dechlorinator. It is 2 drops per US gallon, and it only costs about $5. Actually, at this point, ANY dechlorinator would probably be a good idea. Also to help with the bateria colony, API Stress Zyme works really well. I add it to my tank every time I redo it, or when I do a substantial water change, and I have never had any problems with ammonia levels.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

1. Dechlorinate the water before use. Amquel or equivalent can be found at many LFS.

2. Don't overstock a new tank! No more than 3 to 4 small/medium hardy critters when the tank is new (1 month old).

3. Don't add any chemical to the tank until the fish are healthy. Add only 4 to 5 medium sized fish at a time. Wait about 2 weeks for new cycle bacteria to build-up before adding more fish.

4. Feed sparingly...about 1/2 square centimeter of flake food for each inch of fish when the tank is new.


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