# planted tank with sump, WHY NOT?



## newguy

I think this warrant a good discussion, why noone setup a planted tank with a sump as it will be hugely beneficial (i will explain later). The usual answer is it will have too much surface movement for co2 which is completely false. Lets look at the setup:

Tank with overflow -> sump in the stand with a good water pump. Find a sump with the input and output towards the bottom of the sump, this will completely eliminate any surface movement. 

So why do you need a sump? 
1) All the ugly equipments can be completely hidden in the sump, ending up with a clean equipment-less tank
-heater
-co2 reactor(you can have as big a reactor as you want for 100% co2 absorption)
-power head (to create some surface movement at night if needed)
-ph controller..etc...
2) Easy automatic dosing: automatic dosing of 3x macro + 1x micro + iron etc.. is very difficult, now it can be easily and safely done by using those drip medical dosing bottles, just install 5 bottles above the sump and set the drip rate, gravity will do the rest. cheap reliable mechanical setup, no fancy electronic to malfunction. Also a constant drip dosing is much more effective. 

3) Can have a light and throw some unsightly nutrient absorbers like watersprit / anarcharis in there to prevent excess algae in the main tank. 

So the question remains, why noone has done a sump planted tank? is there something i am missing?


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## HX67

I am using a sump with my paludarium. Long-term experiences remain to be seen, but as the tank is maturing, the submersed plant growth is picking up...


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## geeks_15

I have a sump on my 75 gallon high tech tank. It works very well. For details and pictures check out the link to my journal in my signature.


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## wet

Hi newguy,

Nowadays I think lots of folks with big budgets who buy drilled (sw) tanks keep sumps. When I DIY'd my first sump in 2003/4?, no one was doing it and everybody felt that was due to CO2, which is silly since even a wet/dry will retain CO2 if it is sealed and not allowed to exchange gas with the atmosphere, and we have no purpose for the baffles and their cost in most SW sumps. Anyway, after you get to DIYing this stuff your creativity takes over. I ended up turning my sump/fuge into an emersed growth paludarium thingy while still connected to a main tank:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ulture/9469-emersed-growth-set-up-advice.html

(My old username on APC)

Planted sumps ('fuge moving forward, because it really does help to look at them as SW folks do theirs) are advantageous in more ways than you point out and the obvious (hides gear, more volume=easier dosing/stocking, etc):

1) One can run a reverse photoperiod between the main tank and fuge, keeping dissolved O2, CO2 and pH pretty close to stable.

2) Constant water height in the main tank! This is so huge it needs caps. Super easy water changes by removing the drain pipe leading to the sump, feeding it to some bucket, and then just dumping water into the sump.

3) Fuge is an excellent place for plant, fish, or shrimp growout. Also acclimation.

4) Personally, I think a low tech tank with a wet/dry sump to maintain dissolved CO2 at a level close to atmospheric CO2 may be the NPT of the future.

5) I prefered to dry dose into the sump, which is the prefect dry dosing container, but your drip idea is appealing, too.

Tricky ****:

Using a modified Durso standpipe or other drain can keep noise down while effectively surface skimming the main tank, a big deal for open top folks. I prefer this to your overflow idea because I believe it has less chance for failure (I drilled my main tank myself for this reason), but Durso is also prone to be noisy. You lose more CO2 than you'd think in the baffles of an overflow.

Prefilter on the main tank can be hard. Window screen was the best in my experience.

Leave the return piping so high in the main tank that power outage has minimal return to the tank.

In my time with the above set up, I converted my sump from a sump to a fuge to a planted tank to a paludarium. I think about running a sump again sometimes but if I did it again I'd do it in some super tall tank as a sump and pull it from under the main tank, making it a central point. Like a 24" cube tank would be slick.


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## newguy

that's awesome guys! i am so tempted to setup another larger tank to try out the sump idea! One of the biggest pet peeve i have with planted tank is all the equipments in the back of the tank and also the nutrient dosing, this should solve both problems!


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## nfrank

In late 2008, i set up ALL my new tanks with sumps. I never kept a reef tank so it was a learning experience. It just seemed like a great plan for large tanks, but certainly a challenge without having a good model to follow. One of my 3 tanks is discussed here 120g Journal, although details about the plumbing are minimal at this time.

"Wet" did a nice job summarizing the advantages and some of the challenges of using a sump with plant tanks. There may be more folks using them than you think. It would be nice to have a section of APC! Maybe all the old sump-related discussions (including a few of mine) could be linked so they are easier to find than with a search. This may encourage more folks to give sumps a try, including past reefers who already have the setup.

I strongly agree with advantages of "constant water height in the main tank." I also use my sump for extra plants and fish; shrimp are living there too., but i am having problem keeping them from going up to the top tank. I also have trouble keeping fish from going into the overflow. Plastic "skim," helps block the entry, but i occassionally find fry in the sump, which then becomes a grow out tank. I dry dose epsom salt and plaster of paris after each weekly water change (the water flow helps dissovle the CaSO4). I do my other ferts differently, but am reminded that i want to install a drip system for traces and macros. Details please. 

My 3 drilled tanks are directly connected to the house plumbing, so in stead of playing with the drain pipe, i just turn a valve for water changes. I also have the plumbing configured to slow drip tap water thru a carbon filter to compensate for evaporation (especially during long vacations), but i have not yet taken advantage of the design.

I mostly solved the CO2 loss problem by sealing sump and raising dorso, but am still contempating the modified return that I think "Wet" is talking about. Although i have more mixing with atmospheric gas than i preferr, i currently dont worry about turning off the CO2 at night.

A good topic not yet discussed is *filtration*. I use 2" thick Poret sponges which also help partition the sump for fish and plants. On my relatively low fish load 120, i have not cleaned the sponges in over a year. Talk about low maintenance. In my other setup (two 90's connected to one 40g sump), i just cleaned the sponges after 14 months and i am suspecting the tanks and oxygen level are benefiting from the reduced load of accumulated organics. 
--Neil


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## Dryn

I second the notion that there is probably a lot more people using sumps that we are led to believe. I remember seeing some dutch tanks with sumps, but it wasn't in english but I don't think they talk that much about it...

I always see the hang on back refugiums in the LFS and I have always wanted to try one out.

I know that a willow limb is a great way of stripping excess nutrients in a newly set up tank where the substrate is rapidly breaking down. A refugium would be a great place for them as well as being a place that provides fry and young shrimp shelter to grow out before joining the display tank community.


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## Squawkbert

Reasons I've not considered moving to a sump:

1) Noise and CO2 loss - even w/ a "sealed" sump, you've got to feed it tank water, typically by allowing it to flow down a standing pipe. Unless done with considerable care and planning, it will wind up being noisy (compared to an Eheim) and it will allow at least some CO2 loss.

2) Potential for flooding - if you get a nice clump of algae or some leaves blocking the intake for your stand pipe... I know that canister filters can drain a tank as well (despite holes just below the water surface in return lines and whatever other precautions many of us take), but I tend to rate the probability of a flood as being higher w/ a sump.

3) Cleaning - my Eheim is a lot easier to yank out and clean than most sumps are (I'd wager).

If it feels good, do it and I'm happy for your successes, but it still isn't "my cup of tea".


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## newguy

hey any of you guys tried something like this for automatic dosing? i am really curious if it works for planted tanks: http://www.marinedepot.com/dosing_pumps_top_off_kent_marine_aquadose-ap.html

you probably want to use medical grade dosers not this one, but same concept.

Squawkbert, flooding should never be a problem ever if you set up the overflow correctly. It's easy to test, just turn off the power with a bucket/cup ready and see if the water level in the sump will go above the max line.


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## Squawkbert

I suspect that in a planted tank, teh most likely spot for a flood is from the display tank, due to clogging up the overflow and having the sump contents pumped into the tank w/o any return.


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## nfrank

Squawkbert said:


> I suspect that in a planted tank, teh most likely spot for a flood is from the display tank, due to clogging up the overflow and having the sump contents pumped into the tank w/o any return.


In my 1 year experience, i had a small flood. But it was from a seam leak in the sump. I believe that is quite unusual and obvously can also occur in the main tank. I would like to know how often overflow clogs occur.

I do agree one disadvantage to the overflow/sump system is the noise of water spilling into the overflow. This tends to be worst for me when a piece of plant get stuck and creates a new "stream." Otherwise gunk on the inside slows down the water, keeps it dispersed and relatively quiet, but definitely not like an eheim. The white noise of my system however can be quite soothing, and also gives me an excuse when i dont respond to my wife.


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## geeks_15

I've had my sump for only about 6 months. The way mine is setup and flood would be due to long term neglect. If the slats get clogged water will flow over the plastic divider and into the overflow pipe area. My pipe which carries water from tank to sump has one large end hole (1/2" PVC) and 3 smaller holes (designed to prevent siphoning, but water will flow through them). I set the sump water level by turning off the power and checking how high the water gets.

A sump may be more likely to flood than a non-sump tank, but if done correctly a sump system should be very safe.

I specifically asked about this when setting up my system, and the LFS guy (maintains many tanks around the city and is known as "the go to guy" for aquarium setup and plumbing challenges in my area) who helped me set it up assured me it would be safe. BTW he wasn't selling me the sump equipment (I got most of it from home depot and lowes) so he didn't have any conflict of interest.

The water flow noise is definitely louder than any of my cannister filters, but it can be minimized by adjusting the plumbing. I have my tank in the wall which also helps dampen the noise in the adjacent living room.


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## TAB

With a little bit of work you can make it so you have no noise comeing from your overflow. I also recomend adding atleast 1 extra and a higher hight for "emergencys"


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## newguy

nfrank said:


> I do agree one disadvantage to the overflow/sump system is the noise of water spilling into the overflow.


wow are you serious, how can you live with the overflow noise it would drive anyone insane! :kev:

check out durso pipe: http://shop.dursostandpipes.com this is the original website of the guy who invented it, but if you google there are many variations now you can buy.


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## essabee

The 1000L GLMT that I am building and posting about in the DIY forum is going to be a planted tank with a large sump. It is my first sump and reasons for having it is very much what you tabulated but the most important reason, I suppose, for my having planned a sump is it would ensure a better and uniform water parameter. Severe pruning operations in a planted tank does play havoc with water parameters - even regular trimmings leave their effect. A large sump filter will go a long way in masking those resultant effects.

I am not worried about CO2 losses. CO2 is perhaps the cheapest running cost input in a planted tank after water.


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## Tausendblatt

Sumps are cool newguy, I have one on my largest tank. It has all the equipment in it.

I can see the point there...



> unsightly nutrient absorbers like watersprit / anarcharis


But I found it offensive when you said anacharis is unsightly... Egeria najas and Elodea Nuttalli are among my favourite species!


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## grak70

I have to admit, I am very curious why, whenever sumps come up, we can't use a closed siphon. I can think of only 2 reasons.

- restarting the siphon after power failure (if flood prevention is by siphon break)
- balancing the siphon flowrate with the return pump flowrate

Are these insurmountable? It seems like a lot of effort is spent preventing noise, CO2 degas, air entrainment, etc with overflows when a closed siphon would fix this for freshwater sumps.


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## MagpieTear

nfrank said:


> ... The white noise of my system however can be quite soothing, and also gives me an excuse when i dont respond to my wife.


Okay, I'm sold!

I've often been told that the CO2 loss was a major reason for not doing it on a planted tank, but like everyone else, I am wanting to take the heater, CO2 dissolution, and other items that gunk up the visual appeal out of the main tank. Is there anyone on this forum that has done a direct comparison (same tank) of with/without sump on CO2 loss? I'm wanting to do a 125 or 150 as my next setup and finding a used S/W setup that is drilled is a relatively easy task on my local Craigslist. In fact, if it does prove out that there is minimal off-gassing, I'm going to be rather upset on passing up a few deals on large tanks.


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## geeks_15

I had the same concern and I was really pumping the CO2 into my tank to compensate.

Then I got a drop checker and learned a little more about CO2 delivery (Optimizing CO2 thread).

It turned out I was putting way too much CO2 into the tank. When I adjusted the CO2 to an appropriate level I realized how little gas off was occurring.

I left the CO2 off overnight and the pH would drift from about 6.5 only up to 6.7 or 6.8. So in my tank CO2 gas off is really not an issue.


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## Diana K

Sumps below the main tank:
Dog drinks out of them, then has a very slightly fishy breath. 
On non-drilled tank the automatic self starting siphon is not reliable. I have 2. One restarts about 75% of the time, but not at full volume. The other restarts about 25% of the time. They plug up very easily. Drilled tank restarts 100% of the time, and is less likely to get plugged up. Float switches on the pumps are not reliable. 
'Sump' above the tank is a window box growing Heartleaf Philodendron. A fountain pump in the tank runs water up to it. Never any problem. Has run for years. Just gotta clean the media around the fountain pump intake about once a month. 
If I could solve the plumbing problems I think I would want to set up more and more creative sumps. For example: A planted sump between two tanks that also have a water bridge.


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## geeks_15

[smilie=r:[QUOTE]If I could solve the plumbing problems I think I would want to set up more and more creative sumps. For example: A planted sump between two tanks that also have a water bridge.[/QUOTE]

Cool idea. How about emersed plants growing along the water bridge.

I've often thought about building an emersed setup with a pump that pumps water to the top of some rocks creating a water fall. The water flows through an emersed setup and back into a regular aquarium. The idea sounds so peaceful to me. Ahhh...day dreamin'.


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## Tausendblatt

A refugium has always been a dream of mine. I want ghost shrimp there.

I tried it once, without the ghost shrimp, I even have pictures up here on my shelf. I grew java fern and a bit of moss, along with Charophytes, but I didn't like them being dusted with debris. I also grew a bit of diatoms, and they were annoying to scrub off. Not so much as green spot algae though... SO I canceled the idea. I need more filter media in order to achieve such things. Brighter lighting would also help...

Dear Diana K: I have a solution to a dog drinking out of a sump: http://www.aquagiant.com/product_info.php/cPath/31_45_153/products_id/745

A cabinet. My tank came with everything built in: sump and pump and pipes and box corner. Mind you, the box corner is annoying.


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## J-P

I was introduced to this tread by another member and I am hoping to get kind of a walk through / help with it.

As a new member and new to plants I am obviously seeking some advice.

This is the youtube vid of the leak test:





The design of the tank is 1 filter and 1 pump for multiple tanks. AKA a hydroponic system. The bottom has a refrigerium and the main tank should be hevily planted to provide benificial filtration for the top section.

Edit ... 
P.S. I hope I didn't just hijack this thread .. sorry

P.s.s. I have a seperate thread regarding this set uo if anyone is willing to walk me through it.

Thanks
J-P


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## wet

Turns out my old ISP kept one of my old personal pages up, 'case anyone wants a super old howto from back when folks were not doing this. Lots of things changed over the years though: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/czcz/howto_fuge.html

What's your question or other thread, J-P? The pics and idea are sweeeeeet.


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## J-P

WET,
Thanks for the kudos
basicly I cross posted (don't kill me).

I jumped in on this tread cause I wasn't getting any "how to" replies on the other. I'm going to need a lot of hand holding on this project.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ponds/67837-multi-tank-hydroponic-system.html

At the moment I am setting up the filtration for the unit, but would like recommendations on the refrigirum portion... from there we'll take it section by section


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## Knotty Bitz

Ok, I am totally new to sumps and I am thinking about giving it a try. I was thinking I would use a spare 10 gallon. Then the water would go through the filter and back up into the main tank. I have a few questions though.

What steps should I take to make it extremely quiet? (the tank is in my bedroom)

What is the point of having a drilled hole?

Do I need to literally seal the top of the sump or will it be fine to just lay a glass lid on top?

Also any basic step by step instruction that are available would be great, thanks


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## Diana K

Couple of points:

The sump is open (even with a lid). It is not a sealed unit like a canister. 
Water can flow into the sump from the tank. (duh, that is the point- it is supposed to) It depends on gravity to flow. 
A pump removes the water from the sump and sends it back up to the tank. The pump depends on electricity. (another duh!)

Watch what happens when the power fails! Follow the path of the water in your mind:

1) If the intake in the tank is too low then water from the tank will continue to siphon into the sump. Then onto the floor. Bummer. Perhaps even drain the tank until your fish think they are in training to become mud skippers. 
2) If you set the intake up a bit higher then only a certain amount of water from the tank will siphon into the sump, then the siphon is broken. Goody! The water stops flowing!

So: Make sure the siphon is positioned correctly to stop flowing before the tank is empty. Make sure the sump is sized right so the sump can hold all the water that will flow from the tank. If the tank will drain down 1" below the normal water level, how many gallons is this? (obviously depends on tank size- you gotta do the math)

Next issue: If you are using a siphon over the edge of the tank, and the power goes out, and the water stops running... your siphon can drain out and not re-start when the power comes back on. Pump will then pump all the water out of the sump and into the tank... and perhaps over the edge... and onto the floor... (and maybe burn out the pump when it runs dry)
There are tricks around this, but IME they are not guaranteed to work. I have built automatic self starting siphons and still had water on the floor. :-( I have float switches in the sumps, but they do not work well.

Solution: If the tank is drilled (side or bottom) then the plumbing can be arranged so the restart does not depend on maintaining water in a complex siphon. On power up water fills to a certain point, then spills down the pipe.

Gravity fed pipes will not carry as much water as fast as the same size pipe when it is powered by a pump. (Especially when the intake is at the top of the tank) Do some research, and test a few things, but in general, over size the intake as a safety factor so the pump can run full speed and not overwhelm the pipe(s) that lead to the sump.

So... Lesson #1: Size all the components and equipment to suit each other.

Side notes: 
If you have multiple tanks using one sump then that sump needs to be able to handle the overflow from all the tanks.

An intake that is plumbed through a drilled tank can be right at the water surface, but there is often more debris at the surface than 1" below the surface. Making a guard so keep the intake free of debris is one way of handling this, keeping the tank clean of loose plants and parts is good, and having multiple intakes are more good ways to avoid trouble.

Knotty Bitz, I do not think these systems can be made "extremely quiet". There are ways to reduce the gurgling, but I think there will always be some noise. Start by looking into Durso Standpipe.


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## geeks_15

Excellent sump primer by Diana K.

Another tip. Try to find someone who has set these up before. My LFS guy has set up and maintained many sumps and he helped me get the right equipment from the start, helped me develop the plan, and came by to double check my work. A good resource with experience is invaluable.

Oh yeah, and if it is a guy from a LFS who is helping, buy stuff from him and keep him in business even if you have to pay a little extra.


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## nfrank

On Jan 8, newguy wrote


> hey any of you guys tried something like this for automatic dosing? i am really curious if it works for planted tanks: http://www.marinedepot.com/dosing_pu...uadose-ap.html


I am thinking about adding such a type of automated dosing to my sump. It is gravity drip feed which will go directly into the sump. Another advantage of sumps. With a cabinet, it is completely hidden. I am looking at the 2.5 gal one ,which can provide good coverage. I dont know the difference between the marine depot and kent.

*Anyone have good or bad experiences with such a setup?* I am thinking of using it for macros and minors. With EDTA chelated Fe, the container would have to be kept in the dark. Maybe even separate doser for phospates. I wanted to initially keep it simple and not go the Peristaltic Dosing Pump route.


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## newguy

hey nfrank, if you decide to go ahead please let us know the result. Also i would start with just a bottle of regular tank water, leave it dripping for a few days just to be safe. Last thing you want is 2.5 gallon of ferts dumped into the tank due to bad equipment.


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## J-P

geeks_15 said:


> Excellent sump primer by Diana K.
> 
> Another tip. Try to find someone who has set these up before. My LFS guy has set up and maintained many sumps and he helped me get the right equipment from the start, helped me develop the plan, and came by to double check my work. A good resource with experience is invaluable.
> 
> Oh yeah, and if it is a guy from a LFS who is helping, buy stuff from him and keep him in business even if you have to pay a little extra.


If your LFS guy can't help you can experiment a little using foam cooler boxes. These really help before you start drilling glass and then realize you made a mistake.

As for the noise issue, that will be from the down drain primarily. If you extend the pipe to below the water level in the sump section, you've basicly silenced that area. If the stand pipe is just below the water level 1/4" ~1" it will quieten that section also.


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## whitetiger61

ok so has it been determined that there's not as much gasoff as orifinally thought with a sump.I am planning on doing a 12X12X12 tank around 7 gal with a 15 gal sump but was worried about gasoff. also if you have pleanty of nutrient sucking plants in the sump , is it a necessity to have bio media in the sump. i have a filter that goes on the return pump. I have had sumps with sw on several occasions so i know the basics of them..just not with a planted tank..I am going to start a journal on this sometime today, but im going to dry start this tank with HC and dwarf hairgrass so i have around a month or so before i flood the tank.

Rick


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## Revan

This is one of the most beautiful planted tank that I have ever seen:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/47060-your-opinion.html
and has a sump, automatic dosing, etc.
At page 3 there is a photo of the equipments


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## 864Runner

Hey guy's just wanted to put in my view on using a sump in a planted tank. Im currently using one on my 46 bowfront. I am utilizing an overflow box, which I affixed some plastic filter screen around the edge, in the rear box, the outflow is protected with a screen cone and a sponge. Im finding no issues with this yet, aside from the rear box has become a snail hatchery for Assassin Snail's. My sump return is protected by an inlet cage and sponge which works well for keeping it unclogged. The return line has a bleeder hole just below the surface. I just completed a DIY reactor and am planning on having it sit facing the return pump inlet. ANY WAY.... my point here is I dont see any reason not to run a sump. Ive had no bad luck with my tank aside from high ph. (doesnt help the system used to be a reeftank:doh Which is why Im starting co2.


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## jsuereth

grak70 said:


> I have to admit, I am very curious why, whenever sumps come up, we can't use a closed siphon. I can think of only 2 reasons.
> 
> - restarting the siphon after power failure (if flood prevention is by siphon break)
> - balancing the siphon flowrate with the return pump flowrate
> 
> Are these insurmountable? It seems like a lot of effort is spent preventing noise, CO2 degas, air entrainment, etc with overflows when a closed siphon would fix this for freshwater sumps.


I'm surprised no one did research into what saltwater reefers do to minimize noise. has no-one tried this:

be-an-animal's fail-safe overflow

It's a bit pricier, but it works. Basically only two pipes get used at once. One at full-siphon, the other so slightly that the water should stick to the sides. When you start it up, it gurgles a bit and quickly quiets down. Then you have a back-up pipe and the ability for a second pipe to become a full-siphon.

Two issues with the method:

(1) You'll have to custom drill the tank. Haven't found anyone who sells an overflow pre-drilled like this, which is sad.
(2) More $$ investment.

However, if you're running a sponge filter, and can keep the overflow into the sump submersed, it's *much* quieter than other sumps I've heard.

- Josh


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## kb2vzj

I have a planted 55 and a sump with bio wheel and have had it running for 10 years.. I let all the surface agitation possible with the overflow and the bio wheel because the air has a high concentration of CO2 and it transfers to the tank so I don't need to add any.

My plants have always done fine until the bulbs were old then I went with 4 30W exterior waterproof LED lights at $18 each from e-bay. 

My plants are doing even better now with very little algae.

I feed quite a bit and have many fish.

My tank is not the norm. Most people that have a planted tank have only a few tiny fish they barely feed. They Add CO2, and other costly nutrients. It become rather expensive. I have done the same with none of that. The water changes add the nutrients and I have a piece of a pond tab under every plant. The plants are in trial stockings with a rock (weight) and peat moss and pond tab piece. Very inexpensive and does the job. Fact is that if there is enough CO2 in the air for the plants in nature, why wouldn't there be enough in your tank. You just need extreme agitation such as overflow, sump, bio wheel.


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## kb2vzj

It seems that you all have a handle on CO2 and plants. Would you mind going to my facebook group and explaining it better. There seems to be some question as to what is right etc.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/aquariumsFresh/

Thanks


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## lonesomeshark

I agree with all of the stated benefits of a sump. Tanks are fairly easy to drill yourself with commercial overflow boxes for sale that are reasonable and easy to silicone in place. I have used a Bean Animal type overflow system in a planted tank and I have to challenge the assertion that all overflows are louder than canisters. The Bean Animal is absolutely silent when done correctly and, once fine tuned to regulate desired flow, it need never be adjusted. The extra standpipe and emergency overflow provide more than enough redundancy to virtually eliminate flood risk in the main tank. You get all the benefits of surface skimming with the noise reduction of a full siphon. Use the Bean Animal link in a post above or search CalFlo overflows to learn more. Conversely, a single standpipe is at much greater risk for blockage and flood issues. 

I can also attest to the fact in my experience that off-gassing of CO2 is not a major issue with a sump as is so often purported, especially if you use a wet sump design where the tank overflows into the sump below water level. That way, there is no air-water interface as in a wet-dry trickle filter for off-gassing to be a real issue. After switching to a drilled tank and sump for some time now in all of my tanks, I see a lot of benefits and can find no real negatives apart from some extra time and energy put into initial setup.


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## Kerry

I use a BeanAnimal 'Silent & Failsafe' overflow, also, and will never run a tank with any other kind again...had it with over-the-side nightmares...I love the redundancy of the emergency drain. Mine is absolutely dead quiet even while running close to 1000gph through it. Mine was set up as a reef tank that I am currently turning into a planted tank, but, other than reducing the flow to about 2/3, every thing else still applies. I think the hardest thing for me to change over on this is fitting a suitably fine mesh guard around the overflow to keep small fish from taking the scenic tour to the big chopper down below...! (fish and pump impellers-not a good mix). ]


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## AaronT

kb2vzj said:


> I have a planted 55 and a sump with bio wheel and have had it running for 10 years.. I let all the surface agitation possible with the overflow and the bio wheel because the air has a high concentration of CO2 and it transfers to the tank so I don't need to add any.
> 
> My plants have always done fine until the bulbs were old then I went with 4 30W exterior waterproof LED lights at $18 each from e-bay.
> 
> My plants are doing even better now with very little algae.
> 
> I feed quite a bit and have many fish.
> 
> My tank is not the norm. Most people that have a planted tank have only a few tiny fish they barely feed. They Add CO2, and other costly nutrients. It become rather expensive. I have done the same with none of that. The water changes add the nutrients and I have a piece of a pond tab under every plant. The plants are in trial stockings with a rock (weight) and peat moss and pond tab piece. Very inexpensive and does the job. Fact is that if there is enough CO2 in the air for the plants in nature, why wouldn't there be enough in your tank. You just need extreme agitation such as overflow, sump, bio wheel.


This method will work great for a low-tech setup, but won't grow a lot of more difficult plants. If you've ever run pressurized CO2 and you started to run out for a few days you can look in the tank and see which plants won't make it if it's not refilled soon. Those are the ones you can't keep without CO2 addition.

I'm running a wet /dry system on my 50 breeder size tank with a CPR CS90 overflow and overall I'm very happy with this setup. It does burn through some serious CO2 though. Keep in mind that my lighting is ultra high at 160 PAR so my CO2 levels also have to be ultra high. I'm going through 20 lbs of CO2 in 2 months, but it's still worth it to me so far.


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## Tugg

I just wanted to add another report of a high-tech tank with sump. I have a 55g display using dual 1" DIY-PVC overflows that feed under the waterline and into a fluidized sand bed compartment of a 55g sump/refugium. My overflow "screen" is nothing more than a PVC coupler that I knotched 1" long 1/4" wide slots into. It isn't glued on so I can easily remove it for occasional cleaning.

I will attest that my CO2 needs did increase, but only slightly. I was running 1-2bps to maintain 30ppm, now it's holding at 2-3bps. I think this is more a problem with my increased flow than the CO2 loss from the overflows. It's a Rexx Grigg CO2 reactor and occasionally it blows a tiny bouble or two out the submerged spraybar. My Eheim 2217 had less flow then the sumps Eheim 3000 pump. I suspect the higher flow is blowing the mostly dissolved bubbles out.

As for noise, very little comes from the sump. The bubbles that are pulled down are small (possibly being chopped up by the sand bed). The overflow intake is covered by glass tops and a wooden hood and most of it's noise is muffled. I find it makes as much, if not less noise than a HOB filter.

As for critters getting to the pump, how is that even happening for other people? My display overflows to a small sandbed compartment that the water flows over (2 inchs open between top of baffle and tank trim), then it's in a LARGE refuge section that feeds a U shape set of baffles that hold the filter of sponge and Seachem Matrix. The last compartment is the pump house. No critters should be able to reach this section, and even if they some how did, the pump has a sponge screen. If BOTH of the overflows should ever fail, this compartment is setup to run out of water before the display spills over.

All in all, I LOVE the extra water a sump provides. In the refuge I can host Scuds, Daphnia, and snails to break down waste and add free ferts to the water. Once the colonies mature I'll even have free live food. My only problem to date is that my cherry shimp keep riding the overlow like it's part of a water park. Easy enought to fix, I just haven't bothered yet.


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## Flaries

newguy said:


> I think this warrant a good discussion, why noone setup a planted tank with a sump as it will be hugely beneficial (i will explain later). The usual answer is it will have too much surface movement for co2 which is completely false. Lets look at the setup:
> 
> Tank with overflow -> sump in the stand with a good water pump. Find a sump with the input and output towards the bottom of the sump, this will completely eliminate any surface movement.
> 
> So why do you need a sump?
> 1) All the ugly equipments can be completely hidden in the sump, ending up with a clean equipment-less tank
> -heater
> -co2 reactor(you can have as big a reactor as you want for 100% co2 absorption)
> -power head (to create some surface movement at night if needed)
> -ph controller..etc...
> 2) Easy automatic dosing: automatic dosing of 3x macro + 1x micro + iron etc.. is very difficult, now it can be easily and safely done by using those drip medical dosing bottles, just install 5 bottles above the sump and set the drip rate, gravity will do the rest. cheap reliable mechanical setup, no fancy electronic to malfunction. Also a constant drip dosing is much more effective.
> 
> 3) Can have a light and throw some unsightly nutrient absorbers like watersprit / anarcharis in there to prevent excess algae in the main tank.
> 
> So the question remains, why noone has done a sump planted tank? is there something i am missing?


Hi
How I can build a sump with the input and output towards the bottom of the sump, and how I can completely eliminate any surface movement.
I would be very grateful if you could guide me in this regard.


newguy said:


> I think this warrant a good discussion, why noone setup a planted tank with a sump as it will be hugely beneficial (i will explain later). The usual answer is it will have too much surface movement for co2 which is completely false. Lets look at the setup:
> 
> Tank with overflow -> sump in the stand with a good water pump. Find a sump with the input and output towards the bottom of the sump, this will completely eliminate any surface movement.
> 
> So why do you need a sump?
> 1) All the ugly equipments can be completely hidden in the sump, ending up with a clean equipment-less tank
> -heater
> -co2 reactor(you can have as big a reactor as you want for 100% co2 absorption)
> -power head (to create some surface movement at night if needed)
> -ph controller..etc...
> 2) Easy automatic dosing: automatic dosing of 3x macro + 1x micro + iron etc.. is very difficult, now it can be easily and safely done by using those drip medical dosing bottles, just install 5 bottles above the sump and set the drip rate, gravity will do the rest. cheap reliable mechanical setup, no fancy electronic to malfunction. Also a constant drip dosing is much more effective.
> 
> 3) Can have a light and throw some unsightly nutrient absorbers like watersprit / anarcharis in there to prevent excess algae in the main tank.
> 
> So the question remains, why noone has done a sump planted tank? is there something i am missing?


Hi
How I can build a sump with the input and output towards the bottom of the sump, and how I can completely eliminate any surface movement.
I would be very grateful if you could guide me in this regard.


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

The last post before yours was 8 years ago, so you aren't likely to get a response. Try starting a new discussion with your question. I don't use sumps so I can't help, but I'm sure someone else can.


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