# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Ludwigia vs. Rotala



## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

It's been over two years since I began "serious" planting in my tanks. Rotala indica was one of the first stems I tried. It grew well for a while, but now I can never seem to make them grow nicely at all. I've also tried something called Rotala macranda 'small-leaf' and forget it - I had to chuck it all after a few months of constantly going "pointy" on me. R. sp. 'Nanjenshan' did the same thing, only I gave it a little more time before tossing it. I got my first Ludwigia a few months ago (sold only as "Ludwigia sp." - looks a bit like L. arcuata, but not exactly). Although I can't get it to look its best, it seems to manage reasonably well under my chronic nutrient-deficient conditions. About a week ago, I bought L. inclinata 'green'. It wasn't in the best condition to begin with, but it's not doing any worse in my tank, maybe even improving. 

Is this pretty consistent with others' experiences? When the going gets tough in the aquarium, the Ludwigia will generally fare better than the Rotala?


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

It's been over two years since I began "serious" planting in my tanks. Rotala indica was one of the first stems I tried. It grew well for a while, but now I can never seem to make them grow nicely at all. I've also tried something called Rotala macranda 'small-leaf' and forget it - I had to chuck it all after a few months of constantly going "pointy" on me. R. sp. 'Nanjenshan' did the same thing, only I gave it a little more time before tossing it. I got my first Ludwigia a few months ago (sold only as "Ludwigia sp." - looks a bit like L. arcuata, but not exactly). Although I can't get it to look its best, it seems to manage reasonably well under my chronic nutrient-deficient conditions. About a week ago, I bought L. inclinata 'green'. It wasn't in the best condition to begin with, but it's not doing any worse in my tank, maybe even improving. 

Is this pretty consistent with others' experiences? When the going gets tough in the aquarium, the Ludwigia will generally fare better than the Rotala?


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Not to be snooty, but I have had absolutely no problem growing any plant I have tried from either Rotala or Ludwigia.

Actually come to think of it, I do have trouble growing L. arcuata (the true version) beside other stem plants, as it grows very slowly compared to the L. spec. "Cuba" beside it and L. repens on the opposite side. It just caves in on it.

[This message was edited by Justin604 on Fri September 05 2003 at 08:34 PM.]


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Gnome,

Among the small-leafed varieties in either genus I think that Rotala indica is probably the easiest to grow. None of the very fine-leaved species in either genus are easy at all.


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

I wonder if it's possible for a plant to get "over-propagated" by cuttings. What I mean is, the R. indica that I have now originated from the first few stems I purchased over two years ago. At some point, is it conceivable that the ability for the cuttings to develop to their full potential will get "used up?" I used to be able to neglect R. indica and it would grow fine. For the past year, I'd take these pathetic top-cuttings which were the best I could find in a gangly, neglected mess, plant them in a tank with Flourite and dosed with the works, and they'd grow a few centimeters and just stop. Could this happen? Or maybe they need to be grown emersed for a while to "recharge" for lack of a better term.

I'm just grasping at straws, here...









-Naomi


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Well, the sad truth is that if a plant is neglected for a fairly long period of time, it may never return to its former glory. Rotala indica is about as forgiving as they come, but I have seen the same thing happen when I've stuck a nice bunch of rotala in a tank that isn't as nutrient rich an environment as it came from, and then just left it to its own devices in there; sooner or later it winds up in exactly the state you describe, while the stems it originally came from are still thriving in a different tank with a better environment. Best option is probably just to replace the plant with new stems--rotala indica is usually very easy to find--and then resolve to treat it more kindly in the future! As for the narrow leaf rotala macranda you mentioned--often sold as rotala magenta--I have found that plant to be very difficult to grow on any kind of long term basis, even under very good conditions. When it's doing well, it's really beautiful, but it never seems to do that well for any length of time, it's kind of like a roller coaster--nice for a while, then it goes downhill, and then it comes back, all for no apparent reason; at least, the reason isn't apparent to me! I finally got tired of nursing it along and replaced it with something more reliable and less demanding.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

I guess when I set up my 10-gallon (hopefully soon) I'll buy some new R. indica stems. And I'll do my best to "treat it more kindly"







.

Actually, the R. macranda 'small-leaf' was a miniature version of R. macranda (at least when I bought it). It wasn't nearly as red, but the leaf shape was very similar and it definitely wasn't the same as R. magenta. Probably just as difficult, though. I've heard that the secret to these more difficult rotalas is high iron, high phosphates and low nitrates. The high iron is something I'm not able to do in the tanks I have because of the shrimp. When I do set up my 10-gallon, I may opt not to keep any shrimp in it since I'll be playing around with trace element/iron dosages, which might get too toxic for invertebrates.

I guess for now, I'll just have to stick with what works... Java moss and hair algae









Thanks.

-Naomi


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

You know, I don't really think it's high iron or phosphates, although I think low nitrate levels makes a significant difference. I think it's more a matter of the plants always having the trace elements they want and need available. I don't run either iron or phosphate high in my tanks--don't add extra iron at all, and my phosphates are generally below .5 except maybe right after a big water change, and I don't have any trouble growing rotala macranda or wallachi or narrow-leaved ludwigia species. But if I get busy and forget to dose traces during the week, the macranda reflects it almost right away. LOL! When I get really busy, I often consider getting rid of everything except java fern and java moss--they just keep on growing no matter WHAT you do--or don't do.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by gnome:
> The high iron is something I'm not able to do in the tanks I have because of the shrimp.


Holy cow, Naomi, could THIS be why I can't keep shrimp alive in my high-tech tanks? What level of iron would be considered the upper limit for these inverts? Why didn't this come up in our shrimp discussion earlier?!? (Don't worry, I'm not mad, just very excited that I may have found the answer to all my troubles...)









2la


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Tula,

I was under the impression that you had two tanks, the smaller of which, seems to be fine for your shrimp. I just assumed that the amount of fertilizer you added to each was pretty much the same. That said, I'm not so worried about Amano shrimp with the dosages recommended on bottles. But I did notice that with my past experience with bee shrimp and even cherry shrimp, AND tiger shrimp, the deaths would often occur during the night after I'd dose. Mind you, I do half (or less) that's recommended. It seemed to "excite" the shrimp right after I'd add even a single drop of Flourish or Flourish Iron (in 2.5-gallon tanks). Even the Amano shrimp would "run laps" though I don't think I've actually lost any of them to fertilizer. 

A few weeks ago, I lost a good number of the smaller shrimp, but in that case, I think it was due to the heat (no fertilizing during that time). They didn't actually die ON the hot days - more like a day or two later. 

Everything I've read on shrimp care says that heavy metals (no matter which) are a big no-no, whether it's copper, iron, chromium, whatever lies in the middle portion of the periodic table of elements. I can only assume that the smaller the shrimp, the more sensitive they'll be. Why? Do you dose a lot of iron in the bigger tank? Like I said, if you follow the directions on the bottle, I don't think it's enough to kill Amano shrimp. If you're losing Amano shrimp, you're probably adding too much of some heavy metal. I think my cherry shrimp losses were due to a combination of bad factors, with heat just being the "final blow." I no longer feel that the smaller Neocaridina spp are altogether appropriate for high-speed, high-fertilization tanks. Some people might disagree, but from what I've seen in the past two months, I'm pretty convinced. I'm setting up a breeding tank just for shrimp, right now. You can betcha I'm not letting any heavy-metal-containing reagent enter this tank.


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Well, Ludwigia repens and Rotala indica are each the easiest of their respective genus.

Ludwigia spec Cuba, Ludwigia ovalis, Ludwigia
arcuata, and Ludwigia brevipes all fall into
the moderately easy category, IME. You can't
treat them like java moss or fern, but as long
as you give them the basic requirements for
stem plants (strong light, steady flow of
nutrients, CO2) they will grow.

Rotala macrandra, Rotala wallichii, and Rotala
macrandra 'small leaf' (ie green, thanks Naomi!)
seem to grow well with low nitrates but need
the extra phosphate (1-2 ppm) and iron/traces
to look their best. With those conditions,
coloration became much deeper (blood red in
macrandra to very deep pink in wallichii), 
dramatically shorter internodes, and larger
size (plants looked more robust to my eye). 
However, with this nutrient regime Ammania
gracilis, Nesaea pedicellata, and Nesaea sp
'Red Leaves' absolutely refused to grow. Placing
a jobe stick (for nitrate and phosphate) fixed
the problem. Apparently, Ammanias and Nesaeas
need the extra nitrate in these conditions.

Proserpinaca is another nice red plant, Naomi.
I recommend it to you! It's growth is slow but
it is not very demanding, IME.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by gnome:
> Tula,
> ...


I have a 1-gallon nano that receives no fertilization whatsoever other than some Cichlid Vital for iodine. That's the one without problems and in which my cherry reds have bred. The other problem tank is a 15G running off of a cylinder with a Hagen diffuser. It gets the works in terms of fertilization. However, I've gone up to a week without fertilization and have introduced shrimp, only to have them meet with the same fate within a few days. Plus I've had other low-tech tanks in which I've used Flourish Iron before and haven't had problems with shrimp deaths. I don't understand it at all. I'll try leaving the iron out of the regimen and see if that changes anything...

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if there's something toxic mixed in with the CO2 gas. Thoughts? (And sorry for sidetracking the thread...we can continue in my original thread if it gets out of hand.)


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

I have rotala rotundifolia (the same as indica I think...), and it's the most easy plant I have.

I also have Rotala macrandra in a low nitrate (not detectable on my tests), and low phosphates (0 phosphates, I am using now low phosphates flakes) enviroment...

My macrandra is gorgeous red, I received only 2 pathetic allmoust dead stems, and I brought them to life, now I have 50x the mass of those stems...

Maybe i's my 300 w MH over my 66 gallon (only 40 cm depth) tank doing the trick.
this is another "easy" plant for me, my macrandra refuses to get algae... interesting, nothing!!!

BTW I had to put my L. brevipes on the shadow, and I got a big improviment after that...too much light doesn't help this plant!

I use a home made copy of TMG, and I can testify, that there is more to plant nutrients than what I get on TMG, it's not only calcium, no3 or PO4, that is lacking in TMG, there must be something else, something that lacks sometimes on my tap water, maybe some element that no one knows that most plants requires...

My hemianthus micranthemoides is my favourite plant, sometimes she is lovely, sometimes in decaying process, sometimes my water change regime do the trick, sometimes nothing happens...(my tap water compositions change sometimes)

it's not because of NO3 and PO4, I usually put some plant sticks when my hemianthus is getting worse, sticks with lots of PO4 and NO3. and there isn't any improviments...

there must be something else that elludes us all...

Regards!
António Vitor


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by António Vitor:
> I use a home made copy of TMG, and I can testify, that there is more to plant nutrients than what I get on TMG


Antonio, you are not alone







I also use a DIY TMG (3x recommented dosage plus additional iron) and I think my plants are still lacking certain micronutrients. Currently I'm experimenting with the additional dose of Zn and I see some improvements on Ammania gracilis (stunted new growth) and anubias/stargrass (chlorosis of the new leaves). I'm going to try a boron next, my Rotala macrandra and Rotala indica still don't grow as they should. BTW Rotala indica was never an easy plant for me









150L (40G) planted tank
click here for photo

[This message was edited by MarcinB on Mon September 08 2003 at 03:13 AM.]

[This message was edited by MarcinB on Mon September 08 2003 at 03:13 AM.]


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

I'll post my question first...Based on Gnomes statement of plates getting used up - Do plants have finte lives?

Thanks for posting this thread Gnome as I've learned a lot. I could not grow rotala macranda until I learned here about low nitrates. Now It grows like a wee and is a deep red. I dose iron 2x a week, which made a huge difference for the rotallas indica and macranda. The indica stems are each about 1 1/2" and are almost a deep red as the macranda.

Regards,
Carlos 
I've wondered about plants not doing well after a long healthy period and also felt they were "used up" somehow during periods of high fertilization. I thought it was like "burning the candle at both ends" type of syndrome. 

The high iron doesn't seem to bother any of my Amanos, but I'll cut down just in case

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Carlos (tenor), here is my thoughts:

I am havig sucess with macrandra with my low phosphate level regime, maybe what is required is nitrates to become the limiting factor, not phosphates...so a little higher PO4 level is required for the plants to drop NO3 level even further...

of course I am not sure about this...

Regards!
António Vitor


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by MarcinB:
> Currently I'm experimenting with the additional dose of Zn and I see some improvements on Ammania gracilis (stunted new growth)


Marcin,

Can you elaborate on this statement. Do you have any pictures to follow up.

Do you mean stunted like wrinkled/burned ?


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

Here's a photo of my ammania (taken in the spring).









Usually the plant look much worse. Only new growth is affected. Internodes are very short, top leaves are getting small and wrinkled, then the main growing tip dies. The plant start to develop sideshots which look normal for a few weeks and then everything starts again. I upped the TMG to 3x recommended dosage, it helped only a bit. So I decided to experiment further with micronutrients. After a week of Zn addition, the affected stem started do develop normal leaves again. It never happened before.

150L (40G) planted tank
click here for photo


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2003)

How are you supplying Zn ?


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

I don't use a mix of chelated micronutrients. I have everything in separate bottles, so I can prepare a desired solution of a certain micronutrient.

150L (40G) planted tank
click here for photo
Rate my tank!


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

For crying out loud... The darn Ludwigia must have read my first post and decided to make me look like a fool. It went "pointy" and stopped as all of my Rotalas have. So I guess I'm an all-inclusive plant killer







. Now I'm just waiting for the L. inclinata to follow suit...

Marcin, my R. macranda 'small-leaf' behaved in exactly the way you describe - the growing tip would die, then the branches would form, developing fine for a short time, then doing the same thing. After some months of this, I just gave up. I tried adding a piece of Jobe's spike near the roots, which only improved growth very temporarily (instead of the tip dying after growing 1", it died after growing 2"). This happens to the other Rotala spp as well.

I wonder what would happen if I used those red gumball-looking things made by AZOO...? Anybody use those? I might be willing to try them out when I set up my 10-gallon.

-Naomi


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