# DAS Biobox



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

That last Sunday, after the meeting in Mansfield, someone had dropped a bag with one Bucephalandra theia 3. I suspect it was Fred. Thank you so much Fred!

Don't miss the next meeting which is in Fred's house. You will see pristinely clean tanks which receive 0 (zero) maintenance. Not even regular water changes. Stuffed with fish. No filter on the big tank. At least part of that real-life wonder is due to the clay that Fred got from the guy whose store you visited last Sunday in Mansfield. The clay is buried under inert gravel. No one before Fred has thought of doing that and that is why we did not know that you can do something like that and that it works. Works very, very well.

Which leads me to the question - how do I get some of the same clay? Was it for sale at the store?

I have a 60 gallon tank that I need to redo. No matter what you read on the internet adding fertilizers to the water and changing a lot of water every week is *NOT* a way to run a planted tank. If Fred can run tanks with zero maintenance (have a huge Madagascar lace in the middle, and never change water) something is wrong with adding tons of ferts in the water and mandatory big water changes. I will switch from whatever the hell I'm doing now to what Fred does.

Warning: You will feel the same way once you see Fred's tanks.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

Lammert de Haan essentially has taken the Walstad method and developed a modular system that makes it easy for anyone to use. His soil is about 30% organic matter, with the rest being clay and silt. One of his big innovations is to combine a simple under-gravel filter with its very large volume of filter medium in a soil based substrate, while avoiding the usual problems in using these together.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

I did not understand - how is an under gravel filter being used if the substrate is anything other than inert? If there are any nutrients in the substrate the under gravel filter will move them into the water column.

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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

And again, can I buy his substrate at his store?

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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

Your most reliable answer about buying his dirt is to call. Then you can get pricing as well.

As for the UGF/MTS hybrid... he has a "Bio box" that is effectively a tray system buried under gravel. About 90% of the space is to hold dirt under a thin foam and plastic grate cover. This allows roots to penetrate and access the dirt, but helps hold the soil during plant pulling or digging fish to prevent the gravel from falling and the dirt rising.

The back 2-3 inches is a UGF for circulation. The UGF isn't actually meant to to be a bio filter, its a convenient mech prefilter for the small (very small) power head.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

Tugg is right. Although Lammert may not call his UGF a biofilter, think about it. At the back of the tank you have a 3" x 3" x length-of-tank rectangular space filled with gravel. Calculate the volume of that gravel, and compare it to the volume of biomedia held in a conventional filter recommended for that size tank. BTW, there is no reason why you can't but the UGF portion of the Biobox at the front of the tank for unimpeded water flow along the front glass, as long as you don't mind the appearance of the powerheads.

For convenience and economy, Lammert uses common pea gravel in his tanks. (And some of these tanks are enormous!) But you could use any inert or high CEC substrate, with the possible exception of fine sand that might clog the UGF. You could also use a special material in the UGF area to boost its efficiency: small lava rock, pumice, expanded shale, etc.

Lammert says that there is nothing special about his soil substrate, and he is very upfront about the ingredients. No secret recipe! The composition of his soil is very similar to the natural substrates Phil Edwards studied, and found to produce good plant growth.

I need to tear down a 15 gallon, and I am seriously thinking about getting a Biobox for it.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

We probably should move this discussion to its own thread for clarity. I will do that later today, the title of the new thread will be "DAS Biobox".


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

*Re: Expansion project waiting list*

Niko, here is a pic I found of the Bio-Box.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This thread is the new home of a discussion that started in the Expansion Project thread. The Dutch Aquarium Systems Biobox is a patented combination of soil substrate and undergravel filter that we saw at the April meeting.


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## alexopolus (Jan 18, 2010)

Here is some pics of the meeting. 
Remember also that all those tanks including Freds, have a water reservoir "sump", that I think it may play a some role on quality of the water. 
The idea of putting the soil in a tray and covered with a sponge was brilliant, no mess when pulling plants but, like everything it has limitations, you cant cover the whole bottom of the tank with the bioboxes, so not all the plants roots will get to the biobox. I have observed some spots on his tank that plants don't do well you will still have to dose something to supplement the plants.

Overall, its a fail proof way of having a planted tank, but its limited to low light plants.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I see that I have to talk to the Lammert guy himself. I don't quite understand where you put these bioboxes. And especially why you would hide the soil under a layer of foam. Then how are the roots going to get to the soil? And as we all know - the roots will wiggle themselves in the foam anyway. When you pull a plant out some of the roots will stay in the foam - not the best thing because that leads to anaerobic processes that are not great. But I think it is way simpler than I imagine it.

I'm not convinced that that setup is for low light plants only. You will all see Fred's tanks and the plants in them. Also the typical Dutch style tank has super healthy stems. Now, they are not some new age "high light loving plants" (hope you get the sarcasm here) or something but hey, being able to grow most stem plants, have full freedom, and zero algae is something that no one else can even start to describe without sounding like a commercial pitch or presenting a shallow approach. Fred told me that he can add or remove CO2 and light as he pleases WITHOUT changing anything else. Anybody up to try that in their tank? Not a good idea. 

Some of Fred's plants have a tiny bit of a defficiency but remember - he adds only Traces once in a blue moon. If he is free to play with the CO2 and light I think it would not be an exaggeration to say that if he wants he can grow anything he wants. That is what I want to see if it is doable. The tank that I will be redoing was not in my house and you never saw it. It has perfect water parameters ala EI, flow, good size biofilters, lights, CO2, Purigen. Plants grow like crazy. BBA and now BGA grow well too. No one can give me any advice. I even switched to using RO for the 1/3 weekly water changes. Same issues. You see where I'm coming from, and yes I'm ready to drive about 200 miles round trip to Mansfield to find a chance of a solution. Even if it is two handfuls of common Texas mud.

This whole planted tank thing is not about parameters, concentrations, gizmos, and effort. It is about how you setup things to work together. The same thing that makes management of people or resources be great. Hope you see - the 200 miles trip is about management of the tank, not about special miracle mud.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Sounds like the same idea that was going on in the reef community about 15 yeats sgo.

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## Wy Renegade (Apr 16, 2014)

Two questions. Whats the thought on running the UGF in reverse rather than the way it is set-up? And second, while the advantage of the box is that everything is contained how well will it work with pulling up a heavily rooted plant? Could see the entire foam section pulling out of place with the roots, then what do you do?


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## alexopolus (Jan 18, 2010)

niko said:


> I see that I have to talk to the Lammert guy himself. I don't quite understand where you put these bioboxes. And especially why you would hide the soil under a layer of foam. Then how are the roots going to get to the soil? And as we all know - the roots will wiggle themselves in the foam anyway. When you pull a plant out some of the roots will stay in the foam - not the best thing because that leads to anaerobic processes that are not great. But I think it is way simpler than I imagine it.
> 
> I'm not convinced that that setup is for low light plants only. You will all see Fred's tanks and the plants in them. Also the typical Dutch style tank has super healthy stems. Now, they are not some new age "high light loving plants" (hope you get the sarcasm here) or something but hey, being able to grow most stem plants, have full freedom, and zero algae is something that no one else can even start to describe without sounding like a commercial pitch or presenting a shallow approach. Fred told me that he can add or remove CO2 and light as he pleases WITHOUT changing anything else. Anybody up to try that in their tank? Not a good idea.
> 
> ...


I agree with you said Niko, but the way the setup is sold, you suposibly don't have to add anything CO2 or fertz. True if you keep only very low demanding plants. I have been going to his store for a while and most of the plants do grow in the tanks, but they are all have some kind of deficiency. Fred does what I love to do that is dose the necessary, if I spot deficiency I will dose what I think may fix the problem.

The bio box it's a good idea, imagine combining it with Eco complete, some fertz, CO2 and descent water flow.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Wy Renegade said:


> Two questions. Whats the thought on running the UGF in reverse rather than the way it is set-up? And second, while the advantage of the box is that everything is contained how well will it work with pulling up a heavily rooted plant? Could see the entire foam section pulling out of place with the roots, then what do you do?


On the second question, when I remove an extensively rooted plant from my Walstad tanks, I slowly pull the plant until I can see 1"-2" of roots, then I cut the roots at the substrate This gives the plant enough root system to re-establish without disturbing a large area of soil. The same technique would probably work with the Biobox.

These are all good questions for Fred!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes, I see this Dutch-American setup as a stepping stone for things to be taken up a notch. Good base to start and later take it to the next level. It looks like that's a good logic, at least while I'm sitting here in fantasy land.

I think that "establish a good base - improve later" approach will actually work. All tanks that I've had no issues with have started very slowly, with barely any plant growth for weeks, deficiencies, stunting - all of that. What I mean is that I did not have time to do anything on the tanks so they were neglected for weeks and months. There is something in the slow development that makes all the difference later. The tank balance really becomes nearly indestructible. And yes, you can add CO2 and stronger light and go to town. There are no issues. The only problem I think is that most people, definitely me included, don't want to wait. I want to setup a tank and a month later to show you a picture that you would not believe is an image of a 4 week old tank. We have seen pictures like that and usually behind them stands a lot of intrusion, effort, and a great deal of luck too. Stability is not even remotely considered. That's not what I'm interested in. 

I can actually "fix" the problematic tank I mentioned by taking care of it 2 times a week. I call that stupid because I have done it and it is indeed dumb. Also, as you all know, I believe that a fast lane mentality is bad for our hobby. We find a way to start and keep a tank clean 9 out of 10 times - we propel the hobby into a higher level. For now we chase problems most of the time.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Leaving some of the roots in the substrate when you pull plants: Many years ago I did that and about 4 days later my tank got a severe Sulphur poisoning. My entire apartment smelled like rotten eggs, all the plants died, fish where suffocating at the surface. That experience has never repeated but I still think that leaving the roots in the substrate is a bad idea. 

In reality it all depends on how clean your substrate is and how much flow you have passing through it. Simply put - if the substrate AND the whole tank are "working properly" leaving roots in it is not a problem. 

A good question is - "How to make sure my substrate continuously does what it is supposed to do?"

One of the things Fred told me was exactly about the flow through the substrate - he said that his cap is pretty big in size and there is apparently good flow through the substrate.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Malaysian Triplet Snails are IMO a must with a soil tank. They will help prevent anaerobic pockets, they help the continuous replenishment by pulling food down and pooping it out, and will also accelerate the decomp of those leftover roots.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I agree that one needs to look more into the relationships between animals, plants and the tank wellbeing. In the saltwater hobby that's a common knowledge and practice. In our hobby we think in simple and partial terms - otos and Amanos eating algae, less fish is better, snails eat leftover food. But it is so easy to notice that a tank with snails, Amanos, and dwarf shrimp IN CERTAIN NUMBERS accumulates way less mulm. To me that shows that the animals can be used to greatly impact the tank's condition. This looks more like an effort to establish an ecosystem than all our water changes, chemicals, and equipment tricks. Most folk want a tank with nice growing plants. A tank that is setup geared more toward interactions of everything in it is not ever discussed deeper than a certain level.


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## Wy Renegade (Apr 16, 2014)

Michael said:


> On the second question, when I remove an extensively rooted plant from my Walstad tanks, I slowly pull the plant until I can see 1"-2" of roots, then I cut the roots at the substrate This gives the plant enough root system to re-establish without disturbing a large area of soil. The same technique would probably work with the Biobox.
> 
> These are all good questions for Fred!


So would simply incorporating a layer of foam over the soil substrate in your aquarium and then covering that with a layer of gravel produce essentially the same effect? If you could push down on the gravel and rely on the foam to hold the soil in place would it work effectively the same, but allow you actually cover the entire substrate, rather than only the area where the biobox sits?

I have to agree somewhat with what someone said earlier about this being similar to the plenum idea in saltwater tanks. For years I've incorporated a 2" layer of larger shells beneath a fiberglass mesh with a 4" sandbed over the top (a modified saltwater plenum without issue).


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

I wouldn't use windows screen such as a saltwater plenum. But instead a thin 1/8" to 1/4" layer of foam. The biobox also has a plastic frame that helps hold the foam down and prevent it from lifting. You would want something for this as well. I was thinking of using some of that hobby yarn frame and cutting large sections out of it.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm still not clear why use foam. Ok, it keeps the rich soil down. Plant roots penetrating the foam are probably ok to leave if you pull the plant. Is that all there is to it?


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Pretty much. The foam makes the soil available to roots, but keeps the dirt down and the gravel up. I'm curious how sand would do though.


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## Wy Renegade (Apr 16, 2014)

Generally sand does not get through the fine plastic mesh I use in my reef tanks, so I would think it would not get through the foam.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The Biobox has a layer of foam, with a rigid plastic grid on top of that. I don't think the foam by itself would work as well.

Being a die-hard Walstad guy, I am not frightened by soil under gravel. It does not give me any problems, even when moving large plants. But many people are frightened, and the Biobox gives them a way to have the benefits of soil substrate without anxiety. And it is amazing how many ways people can misinterpret the directions, "One inch of gravel over one inch of soil".

This has nothing to do with the under-gravel biofiltration function of the device. That is the part that I am most curious about, since it is not something I can do in my typical Walstad tank.


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## Wy Renegade (Apr 16, 2014)

I think you can. I just did something very similar with a shrimp tank I set up with ADA soil. I built a DIY UGF out of PVC pipe that covered the back 3 to 4 inches of the 15 gal aquarium. Filled the interior of the space between the PVC pipe with ceramic media from fluval covered the top of the structure with plastic mesh zip tied to the PVC. Front has about two inches of ADA soil, the back has only about an inch of ADA soil over the top of the UGF. Hooked up a ZooMed 511 canister filter and I'm running a reverse UGF under ADA soil. It took a little tweeking with flow to get the UGF to not blow the ADA all over the tank, but it wasn't bad. I drilled holes that were aimed at about 30degrees towards the bottom in the sides of the pipes into the filter media. Tank is planted and running without issue for about a month now.


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## redthumb (Apr 17, 2014)

That sounds like a great idea I love DIY. What size PVC did you use?


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## Wy Renegade (Apr 16, 2014)

one-half inch.


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