# Substate for El Natural



## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

Hubby surprised me with "Miracle Gro Potting Mix." Will this work or does it need to say Miracle Gro Organic"?


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## nokturnalkid (Feb 27, 2007)

The organic choice is preferable. I think that the regular potting soil may contain too much ferts and may lead to some algae problems. You could soak it and air it out for a few days and that should help somewhat. When I started to my npt, I used the organic stuff with no algae whatsoever on startup. I did though, soak it and let it dry out a few times before using it, somewhat like the mineraliztion process. Although, I did not fully mineralize the soil till it was sand-like, just a few wet/dry cycles.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree the regular Miracle Gro has too much added (fertilizer) and will cause head-aches. But, yes you can also wet/dry it and air it out to release some of that. I think after a couple months all your algae headaches will have come to a close, though (if you decide to use it).

I used the "Organic Choice". It's only been a week, but so far no problems.

-Dave


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

I want to get what is best to start out right. I'll exchange what he bought. Thanks!


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

*Miracle Grow head aches*

I'm using the organic choice soil as well from Miracle Grow and only after about a month have the head aches started. I have hydrogen sulfide gas bubbles, plants dieing, all my snails died and some fur algae on pretty much everything. Tannins leached out like crazy (I'm doing weekly water changes so it doesn't look like tea). The fish are happy, however.

I have 40 gals. with 2 x 55w lighting. The CO2 seems to fluctuate. The plants are growing but then being over taken with algae. The floating phylathis grows but quickly develops holes and melts. In a panic, I started adding seachem's Flourish Nitrogen and Flouish Excel as prescribed on the bottle since both parameters were falling short in testing. Is that making it worse? Is it just this soil? Should I just sit tight and hope it blows over with some maintenance?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Miracle Grow head aches*

Dying plants. Not good. Dying plants release nutrients that make the problem worse in the water and the substrate. It sounds like your soil has gone anaerobic.

However, its hard to diagnose the problem and help without a picture and more information. I would like to know:


What is your water hardness is? (The fact a floating plant in a new setup is dying suggests inadequate water hardness.)
However, what is "floating phylathis"? (I haven't a clue as to what this plant is.) 
How deep is the soil substrate? 
Are _any_ plants growing?

I would hold off on adding nitrogen and Excel. This tank (while its melting down) has more than enough nitrogen and carbon dioxide! Keep up with water changes. Also, you can carefully poke the soil with a pencil to introduce more oxygen. Remove as much algae as you can. Try to introduce new (healthy plants) in coming weeks.

You could use the Excel to kill algae, but use at manufacturer's recommended dose (too much will kill plants and fish). Monitor dosage _very _closely and check to see that algae are actually dying or have stopped photosynthesizing (e.g., producing gas bubbles).

You have good lighting and a reasonable soil (assuming that the Miracle Gro company didn't suddenly drop the ball on your particular soil). Something else is going on...


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## Sumthin Fishy (Aug 22, 2009)

I've set up 2 tanks recently using MG Organic Choice using a different bag for each set up. The first had much higher levels of ammonia, so there does seem to be some differences between bags. This is pretty much to be expected I guess since I doubt there is much quality control over the contents of each bag. Mine both worked out ok though, but maybe you got a bag that had something very wrong with it.

I think the tannin is to be expected. I like the look myself. Substrate bubbles are also par for the course in my experience. I had some slight rotten egg smell, but I don't think most was hydrogen sulfide. 

What are you using for circulation? What did you top the potting soil with?


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I think I must have misrepresented the plant situation- many are growing very well (amazon sword, lillies, wysteria, crypts). However, they are quickly being over taken with fur algae and biofilm afterwards. So the ultimate product isn't impressive. Some (like pearlweed and java fern of all things) just gave up early and died. The floating plants (previously mispelled- phyllantus (http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=FAP/CTGY/FAP)) are doing basically doing the same thing but with holes instead of algae.

The gas bubbles smell like rotten eggs for sure- but the tank doesn't wreak unless the substrate has been disturbed. I'll return with a post on the water hardness this evening. Thanks for the thoughts!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

_Phyllanthus fluitans_ is indeed a gorgeous plant, but its prognosis is not good.

The expert (Christel Kasselmann, p. 401 _Aquarium Plants_, 2003) says, "The culture of this beautiful, small floating plant is rarely successful in the aquarium, which is also why it is rarely commercially available. It is extremely light-hungry as well as warmth-loving (temperature 25-28C) and will cope with only moderate water movement. Soft, slightly acid to neutral water is optimal......"

In nature, this plant grows in Amazon waters with a GH of 1 (I recommend GH of at least 4 for NPTs).

Because your other plants are growing well, I'd take heart. Clean up tank as best you can, removing algae and dying/sick plants. Poke the substrate to release the H2S gas and maybe add some more plants later on.

Right now your goal is to clear out nutrients released by all the debris and left-over fertilizers. Its unfortunate that your floating plant probably contributed to the problem rather than helped you.

Did you plant the Java Fern in this substrate? If so, the H2S may have killed it. I can't think of any other reason why Java Fern would die when your Swordplants, etc were doing okay.

Hope this helps!


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks! The phyllanthus used to do amazing in my older set up... with a low GH. This all makes sense now- it would flower and spread and everything! I tested my tank and the KH is 4 degrees and the GH I believe was about 5. 

On that note, how long do those test kits last? My GH was really hard to interpret. 

Anyway, I cleaned out the dieing floaters. The java fern was attached to drift wood- but I removed the drift wood today suspecting that it's only hurting things with its decay and age. I moved the java fern to a small rock. I'll keep up with the Excel- I was only dosing one daily amount once a week. Maybe I'll go for daily now to knock back the algae.

Thanks again for the help!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Interesting information about your floating plant. Thanks!

My GH test kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) is over 15 yrs old. It seems to give the same readings as before.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Is there a floating plant you recommend instead for this situation? I've had frogbit in the past and found that the roots got too long for the depth of my tank. And duckweed can be a pain.

This kit is only 3 years old but the colors aren't very strong. So what I'm seeing is a greenish orange instead of one or the other.


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

Emily6 said:


> Is there a floating plant you recommend instead for this situation? I've had frogbit in the past and found that the roots got too long for the depth of my tank.


If I can get my frogbit to grow at all, I usually thin it by hand, pulling out the central rosette and leaving any satellite growth pinched off back in the tank. This removes the longest roots and provides plenty of young plants for future growth.

BTW, I asked about these long roots a while back and was told it's an indication your water is getting sparse of nutrients - a good thing if you want to prevent algae outbreaks. You can also simply pinch off the longer roots. They'll grow back.



> And duckweed can be a pain.


Amen to that!!!



> This kit is only 3 years old but the colors aren't very strong. So what I'm seeing is a greenish orange instead of one or the other.


I have one kit I'm pretty sure is defective. No matter what I do or how carefully I follow the directions, the starting color is off and it doesn't change to end the test.

Hope this helps,
jim


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## queijoman (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: Miracle Grow head aches*



Emily6 said:


> I'm using the organic choice soil as well from Miracle Grow and only after about a month have the head aches started. I have hydrogen sulfide gas bubbles, plants dieing, all my snails died and some fur algae on pretty much everything. Tannins leached out like crazy (I'm doing weekly water changes so it doesn't look like tea). The fish are happy, however.
> 
> I have 40 gals. with 2 x 55w lighting. The CO2 seems to fluctuate. The plants are growing but then being over taken with algae. The floating phylathis grows but quickly develops holes and melts. In a panic, I started adding seachem's Flourish Nitrogen and Flouish Excel as prescribed on the bottle since both parameters were falling short in testing. Is that making it worse? Is it just this soil? Should I just sit tight and hope it blows over with some maintenance?


I have dabbled in gardening and once read that if you use sawdust as a mulch then you need to fertilize with nitrogen because the sawdust will deplete the soil of nitrogen. I used the MG organic choice also and it has a lot of wood particles. That may explain why you would have low nitrogen readings. It may be that nitrogen in your case is winding up being the limiting factor for your plants to be able to use the nutrients in the water. That may explain the similar problems that I am experiencing.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Miracle Grow head aches*



queijoman said:


> It may be that nitrogen in your case is winding up being the limiting factor for your plants to be able to use the nutrients in the water. That may explain the similar problems that I am experiencing.


You're right about pure wood chips, but MGOC Potting Soil does have nitrogen (it contains composted manures). Moreover, every time you feed fish you are adding nitrogen to the system.

In general, I would rule out N deficiency. Yellow leaves and poor growth can result from H2S toxicity, a severely anaerobic substrate, calcium deficiency, etc. Testkit measurements of low water nitrogen can be misleading. Plants may have removed all the nitrogen from the water and are storing the excess.

In general, an NPT (natural planted tank) will have plenty of nitrogen.


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## queijoman (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: Miracle Grow head aches*



dwalstad said:


> You're right about pure wood chips, but MGOC Potting Soil does have nitrogen (it contains composted manures). Moreover, every time you feed fish you are adding nitrogen to the system.
> 
> In general, I would rule out N deficiency. Yellow leaves and poor growth can result from H2S toxicity, a severely anaerobic substrate, calcium deficiency, etc. Testkit measurements of low water nitrogen can be misleading. Plants may have removed all the nitrogen from the water and are storing the excess.
> 
> In general, an NPT (natural planted tank) will have plenty of nitrogen.


Thanks for the reply. That makes sense.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Very interesting about the frog bit- I never thought of just removing the center. I was trimming the roots but mine grew and spread like crazy- this was a weekly chore. Which is counter-intuitive if the long roots mean low nutrients. Maybe I'll give it another try. Though what's to say they won't create another nutrient deficiency problem? I need to find the magic recipe I guess.

And maybe I'll get a new test kit- mine's NG. 

Right now the plants are growing great- just not as great as the algae. So the MGOC is back in my favor. ;-) I think I just need a strong floater.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> Very interesting about the frog bit- I never thought of just removing the center. I was trimming the roots but mine grew and spread like crazy- this was a weekly chore. QUOTE]
> 
> Even NPTs require some maintentance. I wouldn't consider removing excess Frogbit (or Duckweed) a chore. The continuous input of nutrients via fishfood must be counterbalanced in some way. In my opinion, its much easier to remove those nutrients via pruning/thinning plants than water changes, tank cleaning, or watching algae overtake the tank.


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