# New planted column with VERY HARD water



## hitmanx (Jul 5, 2012)

I have been getting a lot of good information from this site so far and would like to get some opinions on my new tank build. I have questions about a couple different issues regarding TOM BARR's non-co2 method. I will try to follow this method as best as possible including the no water changes...

First of all, this is my proposed build:

*Tank*: 15 Gallon Column, measuring 13.5L x 13.5W x 19.75H
*Lighting*: 8w T5 + CFL modification
*Filter*: Aqueon QuietFlow 10 (will be upgrated to AC50 or 2313) 
*Substrate*: flourite black sand (3 to 4" deep, sloping from front to back, using egg crate and yamaya stones to help keep the substrate from shifting)
*Hardscape*: yamaya stones and Branch wood of some kind
*Flora*: possibly ferns, mosses, anubias, crypts, vals, wisteria, anachris, frogbit, duckweed, dwarf sag, rotala, or anything else that can work with this depth of tank
*Fauna*: low bioload of RCS, ottos, school of boras sp.

*Parameters of Tap water:

GH 22-25
KH 17
pH 7.4*

Now to the questions:

1) I've been reading that the peat or leonardite layer is added to give the plants a carbon source right away. how necessary is this step? can I just use a dusting of peat as i have heard the leonardite can cause water discolouration, not to mention is a lot more difficult to obtain...

2) I've been finding conflicting info on substrate depth, so am I okay making the flourite black sand somewhere between 2" and 5" depending where in the scape it is? crypts will be the main root feeders... does this substrate have anaerobic pockets like other sands?

3) Given my VERY HARD water and GH and KH values, is it necessary to use Seachem EQ, or can i get away with Flourish Comprehensive instead for my micros? Is my tap water even usable for planted tanks with such high TDS? Should I mix with RO, given the species of flora and fauna that I want?

4) If I wanted to use the Flourish Macros, is there a way to calculate the amount needed to maintain the ppm levels suggested in the original non-co2 method?

5) This is my first tank of any kind for at least 20years, so I have no access to mulm or dirty sponges or used filters... how do I help cycle my tank? LFS? Seachem Stability?

Thanks for your patience,


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

It'd be reasonable to ask Tom Barr about any details you want to clarify.

Two pre-requisite things to know are that:
1. There are no gurus in this hobby, and 
2. On the internet you will usually get severely biased advice. 

For example: one thing that you will hear over and over again is that your hardness needs to be 4-6 for plants to thrive. That is not true. Yes, it can be 20. But for dwarf shrimp it better be softer. In a 15 gallon tank you can easily achieve that by getting distilled water from the grocery store and adding it to your tank. For about $10 or so you will have any hardness you want. Then do your water changes with a mix of your tap water + distilled water. Problem solved.

About your tank: The very first thing to establish properly is your filter. The kind and brand do not matter. Size and media matter most. But what really matters is what happens inside the filter and how consistent it stays day in day out. If you try to find more information on that you will see that it is not out there. But we discuss many other things. That's a funny situation that our hobby is in right now. Simple truth is that if you get your basics right you will learn a valuable lesson - ""Simple" is the best.": The more things you have to add to your tank the worst off you are.

Keep looking for information and do not forget what I just told you.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hello and welcome to APC!



hitmanx said:


> 1) I've been reading that the peat or leonardite layer is added to give the plants a carbon source right away. how necessary is this step? can I just use a dusting of peat as i have heard the leonardite can cause water discolouration, not to mention is a lot more difficult to obtain...


It is not necessary. Peat will also discolor your water as it adds a lot of tannins, especially in the beginning of its use.



hitmanx said:


> 2) I've been finding conflicting info on substrate depth, so am I okay making the flourite black sand somewhere between 2" and 5" depending where in the scape it is? crypts will be the main root feeders... does this substrate have anaerobic pockets like other sands?


I'd recommend 2". You can sometimes add more depending on certain circumstances, but you really don't gain much from it, and the deeper your substrate/cap is the more chance your substrate has of becoming anaerobic. Why not do the "El natural" method with garden soil under the cap? That way you'll never have to dose fertilizers. A whole lot less effort.



hitmanx said:


> 3) Given my VERY HARD water and GH and KH values, is it necessary to use Seachem EQ, or can i get away with Flourish Comprehensive instead for my micros? Is my tap water even usable for planted tanks with such high TDS? Should I mix with RO, given the species of flora and fauna that I want?


You don't need Seachem EQ, I believe that only adds more Ca/Mg which you have enough of. You can use flourish comprehensive for micros, or just use soil and never worry about any ferts. High GH/KH aren't usually an issue unless you are trying to grow difficult plants like Erios (which you can't grow in low light tanks anyway). Though as niko said, it is probably a good idea to dilute the hardness with distilled water for the shrimp.



hitmanx said:


> 4) If I wanted to use the Flourish Macros, is there a way to calculate the amount needed to maintain the ppm levels suggested in the original non-co2 method?


You can use the Fertilator (top left of this page)http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php, or http://calc.petalphile.com/ to calculate all kinds of fertilizers.



hitmanx said:


> 5) This is my first tank of any kind for at least 20years, so I have no access to mulm or dirty sponges or used filters... how do I help cycle my tank? LFS? Seachem Stability?


Just leave the tank running for a week or so on its own. Or you can heavily plant it and the plants will remove most of the excess fertilizer.

By the way, trying to keep a tank with no water changes is a really bad idea. Everyone wants to have a tank with absolutely no maintenance involved, especially lugging water around every week, but water changes are necessary. If you do not actively remove water and replace it with fresh water your tank water will accumulate minerals, and all kinds of organic wastes which can not be broken down in the aquarium. Over time these will reach such high levels that if you add new fish/shrimp to the tank they will die because they had no time to acclimatize to the high levels of waste products. The long term inhabitants might live our their lives, but they will be stressed by all the substances dissolved in the water column and are far more prone to stunting/not breeding/and disease than they would be if you did regular water changes.

I'd ideally recommend 50% per week, but once a month of 20-50% can also work if you do not have a high bio load or other inputs. There is a graph on http://rota.la/ei/ that will show you how things accumulate in your tank based on weekly/monthly water changes, try it out and see how substances accumulate in your water long term.


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## hitmanx (Jul 5, 2012)

So Zapins,

Are you completely disagreeing with the method Tom Barr suggests for non-co2?

Besides Tom, has anybody had long term success with the method he suggest, or more importantly has anyone proved long term failure with a heavily planted balanced system with with little to no water changes?


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## hitmanx (Jul 5, 2012)

Niko,

Why is this info on filters so hard to find? Can I assume that that any info is based on opinions and brand loyalty with no scientific merit? Obviously I am not opposed to getting the right filtration set up... but you are right, it has been hard to find concrete answers based on evidence as to exactly how much filtration I need for my application. I don't care what kind or brand or price - I just want an appropriate filtration system... no more, no less.

I currently have a quiet flow 10 which doesn't leave alot for customization or room for biological media, so I will be upgrading long before I add any bio load.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm sure you could get it to work for you, I just think that soil would be better.

Low light soil tanks have been extensively tested and they have been 100% proven effective at growing plants. We even have an entire forum devoted specifically to them (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/). Tom's low light tanks do not have the same following as "El natural" low light soil tanks and are not as common or well tested, so the number are not in his favor.

Also, you seem to want to have a lot maintenance tank with no water changes, which isn't advisable. Instead, how about save time by not fertilizing 3x a week and do water changes with a soil tank.


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## Method (Aug 18, 2011)

Most of your biological filtration will be handled by the plants and hardscape, provided you plant heavily enough. Otherwise, if you want to go cheap, get a small powerhead and use it to power a sponge filter. I agree with Zapins, dirt is a good way to start growing plants successfully without needing to worry too much about fertilizing.


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