# Water Changes?



## PlantNewb (Apr 3, 2005)

Hello,
I set up my tank last friday with 2 2L bottles of Co2 producing about 1 bps. This was my first tank so I was amazed by the camboba and the echinodorus producing amazing amount of bubbles. Today (Monday), no plants are producing any kind of bubbles although the CO2 keeps running with the reactor. Could it be that the plants have exhausted all of the nutrients from the water? I only count on Seachen Flourish and Flourish Iron for fertilizers, but I am hesistant to add them because my major concern right now is controlling algae (which luckily hasn't appeared). Would a water change (maybe 30%) help the plants start bubbling again?
Thanks A Lot
I have about 4.1 wpg by the way...


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## paul236313 (Jul 23, 2004)

The bubbling you are seeing is what we call ''pearling''.This usually happens right after water changes .As the day's pass the pearling affect will slow down.So pearling is always a good sighn of healthy plants


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## PlantNewb (Apr 3, 2005)

Ok, I just did a 30% water change and the plants are pearling again. :smile: 
I just have one last question. I read that "false pearling" happens when bubbles come out of torn or damaged plant leaves. I do have an echinodorus pearling from a broken leaf, but what exactly is the difference between real and false pearling?


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Hey pNewb,
I wouldnt worry about using Flourish Fe. Most people find that they get enough Fe out of just plain flourish. You are going to need to worry about dosing NO3 and PO4 and K.
jB


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

Hey plantnewb,
You should probably be aware that the pearling is a result of the oxygen saturation of the tank. As the plants respire and excrete oxygen, it comes out of solution in the form of bubbles in a similar way that CO2 comes out of solution from soda pop. Although pearling is always a good sign, by itself it is not a true indicator of plant health but merely an indicator of plant respiration and of photosynthesis.

While it's a great thrill to watch the pearling, at 4.1wpg I would definitely start worrying about depleting the nutrients in the water and triggering an algae outbreak. I believe Jason Baliban mentioned this in his post. I agree with him.

The water change definitely helps because you are getting rid of algae spores, but if you don't dose nutrients frequently enough, and if your CO2 is not of sufficient concentration your algae will start pearling. That's how bad it can get.

You mentioned that you were hesitant to add Flourish because of concerns that they might cause algae. Guess what? It's just the other way around. It will be the lack of sufficient quantities of fertilizer that will cause the algae to go on the rampage.

You should have reliable measurements of your pH and your kH. With those parameter, and assuming you are not using any phosphate buffers (such as ph Up or pH Down, or whatever brand names for adjusting pH) you will be able to calculate the CO2 concentration. Forget the actual number of bubbles, crank in as many bubbles as you need to get the CO2 concentration at or around 30 ppm. Some people crank up the CO2 utill the fish show signs of stress and then they back off. That's a good way to calibrate your bubble counter as long as you don't have any casualties.

Trust me on this, 4.1wpg generates serious metabolic activity. If you do not keep adding enough fuel to that fire the plants will flame out. I'm not sure what Flourish is composed of but if it does not contain some form of Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium you will need to add these... and add them quickly I might add. Search this site for options regarding how to add these three nutrients "NPK". You will find that popular options are the addition of KNO3 and KH2PO4 which are commonly available. I think Seachem also has these individual "Macro" products as well. You may find it easier to use these.

Of course it may be that your water supply already has copiuis quantities of Nitrates and Phosphates in which case the need is less urgent. You will still need to add Potassium however.

So you should find out what your water supply has, you should measure and know your pH and kH to calculate CO2 concentrations, you should then maximize the CO2 concentration without stressing the inmates and you should ensure by frequent dosing that you do not "bottom out" either the three macros N, P and K or the micros (Fe etc).

Here is a new mantra for you (repeat it until you believe it): "Excess nutrients do not cause algae, nutrient deficiency causes algae."

Cheers,


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## PlantNewb (Apr 3, 2005)

Wow, thanks for all that info. I have read that being able to control N,P, and K quantities in an aquarium is very important, but here's my situation:

I currently live in northern Mexico and my LFS *REALLY* sucks. They do not sell any kind of fertilizers, they wont order anything for a customer and their prices are extremely high (everything basically costs 2X of what you would pay in the U.S.!). I was able to set up my aquarium by buying a lot of stuff from the U.S. and bringing it down. I also had to "smuggle" plants because my LFS only has 3 kinds of plants. Unfortunately, I have not seen any online stores that are willing to ship their products to Mexico and thus I cannot get a lot of stuff (such as fertilizers and plants). The only store I can really go to in the U.S. is Petsmart and they don't really have a lot of stuff. There are no local stores where I can buy N,P, and K nor can I find any test kits besides PH. Haha even yeast was hard to find...

My original plan was to allow my plants to deplete nutrients in the water (and thus no algae growth) and then just use water changes to give more nutrients to the plants. I also bought plants which I read are good against algae (or rather nutrient absorbers). These include hornwort, water sprite, java fern, camboba, a few swords, and moneywort. Unfortunately my plan seems obsolete now.

I am trying hard to look for N,P,K, but without the test kits it might be fairly useless. Considering this situation, what can I do?

Thanks for everything.
Btw, Flourish does contain N,P,K, Potassium being one of the highest percentages in the solution. Still, it contains about a dozen more elements.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Fertilizer substitutes*

I think if I were in your shoes I would try some creative substituting for fertilizers. For example, if you have access to a good hardware store along the border, you can get stump remover, which tends to be Potassium Nitrate - thus providing two of the needed macro nutrients. Then, you can try to get Fleet's Enema, which is a phosphate solution, providing the other needed macro nutrient. For micro nutrients you may be able to get a commercial mix, such as Flourish. Now, since these may not be as pure as you might want, you can change 50% or more of the water every week or so, keeping the unwanted stuff from building up too much. This is a bastardized form of the Barr method, but it might work ok, and isn't terribly expensive.


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## Cichlid Junkie (Mar 25, 2005)

This is my first post to this site and I'm a newbie, but what about adding those Jacobs fern and palm sticks into the substrate for the macros? I have read that they have worked for other people and I'm thinking of trying myself. Just a thought.


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

PlantNewb,
Sorry to hear the bad news about your LFS. I'll have to think twice the next time I consider critisizing my LFS. Maybe they are not so bad after all.

I checked the Seachem website for the Flourish contents and as it turns out the NPK concentrations are not significant at all. It has all the "micro" nutrients though so that's half the battle (well, that's really only 2/5ths the battle - micros and Carbon). As hoppycalif noted there are several avenues to pursue; remember that the two chemicals you need to search for are KNO3 - Potassium Nitrate, and KH2PO4 - Potassium Phosphate. It turns out that these chemicals are the principal ingredients in a few commonly used products. KNO3 should be very famous by now after the problem in Oklahoma. This is a standard agricultural product however. In Spanish the chemical symbol is the same but it would be known as "Potasio Nitrato" Any agricultural supply shop, pharmacy or chemical supply shop should carry it (you do have those down there don't you?). It is the principal ingredient of the "stump remover" noted above but I'm not sure how to translate that phrase, maybe "dinimater tronco" or maybe "extraer tronco" if you inquire at an agricultural supply shop, but I could be completely wrong. The KH2PO4 is the ingredient in Fleet's Enema as noted but that brand may not be available to you so go to the pharmacy and ask for any enema product then check the ingredients. If you can't find it down there, at least you'll know what to look for when you come up across the border. It will hardly be smuggling to bring enema and stump remover back down across the border.

Seachem do make individual N, P and K products as well as a product called Excel which is not a spreadsheet but is a product containing carbon which can be used to supplement your CO2 rig if needed. You will be able to find these products when you come to the US. Another option if you can coordinate it is to order all these items from www.gregwatson.com and have it shipped to a friend's house in the US near the border. Then just come across and pick it up. Who knows, Greg might be able to ship to your location. Send him a PM or an email.

Whatever way you decide - get the nutrients and avoid an algae battle. Believe me, It's not pretty.

Cichlid Junkie asked about the Jobes Sticks. Many of the terrestial plant fertilizers have a components which include urea and ammonia - they can work for you if you are careful but what I've learned is that ammonia is a powerful algae stimulent so you should ensure that the sticks are inserted very deeply and that you do not pull them up when you rearrange the plants from time to time. Junkie, if you are a newbie and if you live in USA there is no excuse and no reason whatsoever to play with terrestial fertilizers. Visit Greg's website or an LFS that does not suck and buy the products made for your hobby. After you gain experience you can then play with fire if you wish.

Also remember that as long as you fertilize the water column sufficiently you really don't have to worry too much about the substrate (although ideally you'd like to have an iron rich substrate like Flourite for example), but really, for now, the substrate is one less thing to worry about if you pay close attention to the water.

Would love to hear of your adventures searching for the chemicals down south!

Cheers,


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## PlantNewb (Apr 3, 2005)

Wow. Thanks again everyone and especially ardvark.
Here's whats happening:
Today I started to get the first signs of algae, mostly hair algae on some sword leaves. :neutral:
I removed it, did a 50% water change, and added Flourish plant Tabs I bought earlier. After reading your post, I decided to add Flourish for today and go looking for KNO3 and KH2PO4 tomorrow. I am almost certain enema (not sure if "Fleet Enema") will be available. If it is, thats one less. As for KNO3, there are no major agricultural supply stores here, but there are several small ones. I will try them to see if I can find it.
I do have Flourish Excel and Iron, and I may start adding Excel soon. I will also try to email Greg Watson to see if I can get something shipped down here. 
Finally, since I do not have test kits I was considering on trying the Barr method. Basically, you can overdose nutrients to always make them available, but you need large water changes <50% to prevent any buildup of nutrients. This seems good and I read good stuff about it.
Thanks a lot everyone... I'll keep you updated.
Oh, some good news: I did manage to get Flourite Substrate :smile:


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