# Can I still have a NPT?



## tazcat70 (Jun 9, 2009)

I just found this and it seems like it is the best way for me. BUT I set up my tank 2 mos ago.

Here is what I currently have. 

I have a 55 gallon tank. In the bottom of the tank I have sand, over 3/4 of the sand is covered by gravel that is larger than pea size. I have about 15 rocks in it and 1 medium sized piece of drift wood and 2 small pieces. (mopani, I believe) I currently have 15w per hood, so a total of 30w. I do not have a heater. I also have a hang on the back filter.

I let it cycle for about a month and then I slowly started adding plants. I started with about 12 dwarf sags that I got off of craigslist. At that time I moved my crypts over from my guppy tank. I added excel, and flourish comprehensive. About a week after that I went to a local store, and he recommended this site. I also got some flourish potassium. Over the next 3 weeks I have bought plants from here. 

Ludwigia repens x arcuata
low grow- staurogyne
Cryptocoryne lutea
Flame moss

About 2 weeks ago I bought 13 Pristella Tetras

On Monday I got in the mail:

Christmas Moss
Anubis nana
Bolbitus heudelotti
Narrow leaf java
Guppy grass
10 Red Cherry Shrimp
4 Brig snails

I have a friend who has MTS and I will be getting some from her this week. I also plan on revamping my lights in the next few days, so I will have 104w total. My plans for fish are Lemon Tetras, Cory Cats, and White Cloud Mountain Minnows.

I REALLY do not want to pull everything up and redo the substrate. With out the substrate can I still do a NPT? Tell me what you think, please!

Thanks,
Tonya

Edited to add:

The Ludwigia is losing leaves, will the increased light help this?


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I'm not sure if one month is long enough for an appropriate amount of *ahem* "crap" to accumulate. You may not have the rich substrate needed for an NPT.

However, you may be able to remove everything from the aquarium, keeping the gravel (don't rinse it) and as much water as possible, putting in soil, planting, and layering your mature gravel over the soil, then filling up your tank with the old water. You may get away with minimum impact on your fish.

There has also been success with "soil cubes". Soil is frozen into cubes and then placed under the gravel like a fertilizer tab... Just search for soil cubes on APC and you should get plenty of hits...

The ludwigia may improve with more light, as it sounds like you've covered pretty much everything else with the fertilizers. Are you dosing iron right now?

And have you read "The Book", Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad? It should answer most, if not all of your questions...


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## tazcat70 (Jun 9, 2009)

I also have a guppy tank, and when I clean it, I put the water in the planted tank.... It is currently overstocked and so I am sure that it is really yummy for the plants...

I am not dosing iron by itself but the comprehensive does have it in it. Do I need more?

Our local library does not have her book, so I am looking for a used copy online. Hopefully soon I will have one.

I am off to search soild cubes, it sounds like just the thing I need. 

Thanks!


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Soil cubes are pretty easy. Just fill ice trays with mud, freeze, and insert into substrate. You can also use root tabs, but you'd have to replace them every 6 months or so.

-Dave


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

> I am not dosing iron by itself but the comprehensive does have it in it. Do I need more?


Probably not, it may just need more light, I think red ludwigia is one of the plants that like light levels that start to get into the high range... I just guessed iron because its the only thing that you didn't mention directly. But then again, it could need more iron, I'm no expert. (My first successful planted tank was a NPT, no dosing fertilizers.)



> Our local library does not have her book, so I am looking for a used copy online. Hopefully soon I will have one.


I believe I got mine from Amazon.com. It isn't the cheapest, even used, but it is hardcover and well worth it. It is the only book on aquariums that I have deemed useful enough to buy...


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Forgotten Path said:


> I believe I got mine from Amazon.com. It isn't the cheapest, even used, but it is hardcover and well worth it. It is the only book on aquariums that I have deemed useful enough to buy...


I second this. That book has been an invaluable source of information for me time-and-time-again. It is worth its weight in gold IMHO.

-Dave


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Well...one of the things that, IMO, you have to decide on, is whether you're really going for a low-tech tank or you're going to do the dosing that you've mentioned that you aren't very reluctant to do. I don't believe you'd ever get the really intensely beautiful peach/red color out of your Ludwigia if you don't spruce up the lighting and dose ferts. The fact that the Ludwigia is losing leaves is more of a sign that your lighting and CO2 are insufficient for it than because of a lack of iron. All things being equal, I'd say that you would be having green leaves that begin yellowing if it were just a shortfall of iron.

Also, taz, why are you so reluctant to change out your sand substrate for a more utile one that'll be more hospitable to plants and trouble-free? I changed the substrate out on my 58-gallon planted tank a year or so ago and it took an couple of hours and tank was crystal clear and heavily planted just a couple of hours after I put in the EcoComplete.


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## tazcat70 (Jun 9, 2009)

Well I was looking at the Ludwigia today and I see tiny new leaves at the joints, so maybe it isn't as bad as I thought. It might have been just the shipping stress or something. 

I upped my lights last night to a total of 104w, so that is 1.9w per gallon of 6500k light. 

I don't know why I am so reluctant. Can you tell me the best way to do it?


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

taz, forget the fact that it is setup now. Just take the plants out and put them in some container with the water that they're in, in the tank right now. Then...the tedious part: Just use your hand or some scooper or convenient tool to get the sand that's in the tank now out of the tank. Then once it's out, just pour in a good reliable substrate...I'd suggest EcoComplete, but I'd think there are others. Let the filters keep working and I'd say that in a matter of hours you'll have relatively clear water and you can put the plants's roots back into the substrate. I'd go so far as to say the next day, when you look at your tank, you'll ask why you were so reluctant to do it in the first place.

I've done it myself, otherwise I wouldn't so blithely suggest that you do it.

By the way, the fact that the Ludwigia is throwing out new sprouts may be a good sign but remember that they can burn out. And, the new sprouts aren't any indication that they color potential of the plant could be reached unless you have sufficient light, CO2 and fertilization. So, let me suggest that the final thing you consider is a dosing regime, like Estimated Index dosing which is really a simple approach and very effective.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Ditto: remove the sand and go for a substrate that offers some cationic exchange capacity. The method suggested above will work. 

Move everything. 
Set up soil, driftwood, rocks...
Add only enough water to wet the substrate. 
Plant. Keep plants misted as you go. 
Add gravel around each plant, or put the gravel in on top of the soil and plant through it. 
Put a plate or some plastic over the gravel and pour the water in slowly. Keep misting the plants. The water seeps slowly into the substrate so there is the least clouding. 
Net the fish out of their buckets. Fish under stress create more than the usual amount of ammonia, and stress hormones. You do not want to add this to the tank. 
Top off the tank with new water, prepared ahead of time.

The book is SO worth it, pay full price if you can, and cannot find it used.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

With that move up to 1.9wpg you're going to probably end up wanting some compressed CO2 or a monster batch of DIY in there right about the time the BBA shows up. Try something in the 1-1.5wpg range if you're avoiding compressed CO2. Even at that level, DIY can help out some. You can try to push the carbon to plants through the roots, but there's some pretty big contradictions between studies and species on that topic.

-Philosophos


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## tazcat70 (Jun 9, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> With that move up to 1.9wpg you're going to probably end up wanting some compressed CO2 or a monster batch of DIY in there right about the time the BBA shows up. Try something in the 1-1.5wpg range if you're avoiding compressed CO2. Even at that level, DIY can help out some. You can try to push the carbon to plants through the roots, but there's some pretty big contradictions between studies and species on that topic.
> 
> -Philosophos


The good news is with my setup I can change the bulbs to something lower quite easily and cheaply.

Thanks for the information!


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