# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Roger,Didiplis Diandra question



## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Roger,
I've been searching thru some old threads and came across one were you say,


> The cupping on the D. diandra leaves may be a trace element shortage. In my tanks D. diandra is sensitive to trace element dosage but cupping is not the main symptom. I see twisting leaves, dying tips and hardened stems. The twisting tends to vary through the course of the day and can effect different stems on the same plant differently.


When you say hardened stems, do you mean that they turn black? I've acquired this plant a few weeks ago, and it is starting to show some of the symptoms you talk about.
I will list a few parameters if this helps, but my real question is, do you think I should increase micro dosing? Currently I dose 10ml of flourish twice a week.
The one thing I do not know is my GH though my water quality report lists Total Hardness as CaCO3, with a range of 94-248, and says it averages 134. 
Hard water to say the least, so is it possible that the water is just to hard for this species?
Other parameters
40 gallon
4.8wpg
NO3 20ppm
PO4 between 1&2
PH 6.4
KH 6
Any help or insight would be great.

Pete


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

I had stunted new growth on my A. reineckii. I started dosing Epsom salts and the problem sorta went away. HOWEVER, Roger suggested it was likely some trace contaminant in the Epsom salts (he guessed Boron). Lo and behold, when I upped my trace and stopped Epsom salts, the problem went away completely.

So, assuming my stunted growth is similar to your problem, then I would guess it is a trace shortage.

Just trying to get in a guess before the expert weighs in







!
Brian.


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Brian,
I can't think of anything else it could be.
Im seeing little signs across the board, but my didiplis diandra shows it the worst, I guess we will see what happens with an increase in micro dosing.
I have also read that this plant likes soft to medium water, but I've also read that plants can almost always adapt. 

Pete


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

FWIW, I'm currently dry dosing 3/16 tsp of CSM+B 3x per week in my 46g. It seems high to me, but the plants seem to be liking it!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Pete,

The stems turned black, but usually as an advanced symptom. The hardened stems were rigid and broke easily.

You can try upping your Flourish dose, or using a different fertilizer. Another ploy you might try is to dose your traces four times/week, instead of twice a week, or to go to daily dosing. The trace element levels might drop pretty low between doses.


Roger Miller


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Roger,

Can I rule out hard water? If so great.

Pete


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Pete,

The problems I had were in water about 6 dGH, which isn't especially hard. I can't rule out hard water as the problem, but I can tell you that hard water isn't a necessary part of the problem. It seems unlikely to me that hard water has anything to do with it.

Hardness is one of those things that we can easily measure and that varies from place to place. It is customary to blame hardness for most anything that goes wrong, and I doubt that hardness is very often the the actual cause.

Hard water may cause some problems indirectly, such as causing phosphorus or trace elements to come of of solution faster, but those are things we can easily correct.


Roger Miller


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

> causing phosphorus or trace elements to come of of solution faster


I'm sure you have probably explained this a million times. So do you mind making it a million one?

Pete


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Calcium is usually the major part of GH. Calcium combines with phosphate to form a host of very insoluble compounds. That doesn't happen very fast, otherwise there would never be phosphate in the water. Based on general principals, higher calcium concentrations should make that happen faster. Lower pH may offset that tendency.

The other side of hard water is usually an elevated KH caused by high bicarbonate concentrations in the water. Some - possibly all - trace metals form complexes with the bicarbonate. The complexes aren't extremely strong, but they may make the trace metals harder for the plants to get to. There is probably always enough bicarbonate in the water to form those complexes, so the effect of having a higher bicarbonate concentration is probably secondary at best.

Finally, along with higher KH there is usually a higher pH. There is a limit to how high you can force CO2 to offset that effect. pH above 7 accelerates the formation of phosphate precipitates and leads to the formation of insoluble hydroxyl compounds of most metals.

None of these reactions happen immediately. Moving concentrations up or down, or pH up or down usually doesn't determine whether or not one of these reactions will happen -- those factors only change the rate at which things happen. You should be able to offset the effect by dosing more frequently.

The effects are mostly theoretical. Chemical principals are pretty well established, but I don't know of any data specific to aquariums. The data are expensive.


Roger Miller


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

> You should be able to offset the effect by dosing more frequently.


This is the plan, I'm going to dose 15ml of Flourish 3 times a week. 
Thanks for your help Roger.

Pete


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Just tested my GH, 10dGH. The didiplis does not look like it's going to make it.
Strange, it has lots of new growth, but about half an inch below the new growth the stem is turning black and eventually killing the new growth.
I've increased micros considerably (15ml of flourish every other day)
So I think water chemistery has a lot to do with it.
All other species are doing great.

Pete


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

The lower portion turning black could be a sign of aging. As you may know, plants also have a limited year of growth. Eventually, stem plants will need to be replanted. When you start seeing signs of the lower portion withering, cut and replant the top portion that still have many healthy leaves. Throw away the lower rooted portion.


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Thought I would show fellow hobbyists what I'm dealing with.

The Didiplis is the last picture in my journal.

Pete

Sick Didiplis Diandra


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

picture is a lil unclear. But I would still go by what I said. Just try it and see if the newer portions on top are still affected after a while.


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Paul,
I acquired thie plant Feb. 23.
Some of the healthiest stems ever.
The point I'm making is that this plant does not do well in hard water conditions (GH 10dGH).

And yes, I've already tried your method.

Pete


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

The only reason I am suggesting this method is because it sounded alot like what I had before. The water in my part of town is also hard. Try KH of 13. Anyhow, if it doesn't work then try something else. That's the only way







Good luck and hope it will be better soon!


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

> The only reason I am suggesting this method is because it sounded alot like what I had before.


What did you have before? Does it have anything to do with the problem I'm having with Didilis Diandra?

Are you stating that you have this species growing with a KH of 13?

Sorry, you are making some broad statements.
So Im just looking for clarity, thanks for your help as well Paul.

Pete


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Exact same plant. Very similar if not the same problem. 

And yes, I grew all of my plants in that kind of KH. It is doable, but requires some adamant patience because their growth will be slower than if you had them in lower KH settings. That is why some of my friends use RO, but for me, $ is an issue already so I just let things be. If they grow they grow. If not I will find something else that will. So, in this way, my statement isn't really that broad, haha! Again, exact same plant and very similar problem. Mine was even worse than yours.


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

Just out of curiosity whats your GH?



> If they grow they grow. If not I will find something else that will.


Good point, I just don't think my water chemistry works for this species.

Pete


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

I don't really measure my GH, even though I have the kits to. The reason is, I only focus on knowing my KH, in order to adjust my CO2 injection rate to get the desired pH. Once you are in the proper range, you can pretty much grow anything, EXCEPT plants that prefer soft water such as Tonina(KH<5 is desirable). Here is a useful chart in case you might not already seen it:

http://www.dennerle.de/HG07UG07.htm

I do have some Tonina from a friend who grows them in RO water, and that's when they look their best. Mine are hanging in there, and I don't blame them







My KH has gone down to about 11, but I think that fluctuates simply due to my area's water control. The same can be said about the chlorine and chloramine levels.


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