# EI and high phosphates



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So I've been dosing using the EI method for years. About 6 months ago, I started to be over run by brown algae. I tried all kinds of things but only yesterday did I check the phosphate levels (only yesterday did I know it was brown algae- I wasn't google searching effectively I guess).

They were +10! My tap water has NO phosphates in it. And I only feed what the fish eat in a couple minutes. The culprit must be the KH2PO4 I've been adding. 

I did a bunch of water changes until the PO4 levels were 0 and thought I'd see if that kicked the brown algae. If that works, I'll try slowly adding some back to bring the PO4 levels into target range.

I've only been adding 1/4 tsp. 3x a week to 65 gallons... do some plants not utilize PO4 as much as others? Why would this suddenly build up and create such problems?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Well, EI claims that if you provide everything that the plants need they will grow amazing forever. AND algae will never show up. "Everything" is exactly 7 things (N, P, K, Fe/Traces, Ca, and Mg). Why plants grow and algae die when "everything" is in the tank is not EI's concern.

Time to ask yourself the question "Is this everything indeed?". You need to ask yourself that question because EI abandons you right here. The only thing that EI will suggest is to add more of "everything" because you are missing something. No doubt about that. If you are missing 1 out of 7 things algae will grow! Simple and brilliant logic.

Your "only 1/4 teaspoon" of P in a 60 gallon tank 3 times a week is called "only" in the world of EI. Outside of it it is called "excessive". For years I did exactly your dosage in a 65 gallon tank. Until one day I drastically reduced the P dosage to about 1/8 of a teaspoon a week (along with all the other 6 magical EI elements). Guess what - I have never seen the plants in that tank healthier. EI does not explain that because all smart folk know that "more is better". 

It's all really simple - 7 is everything. Add more of the 7 if you have problems. Change water and do not ask questions. It works for many, many people.

Other than that I'd say double check your filtration. For some people signs of algae signal biofiltration problems. The biofilter changes depending on many things. For years it can be ok and one sunny day it is not. Start there. Also make sure your water flow is such that ALL plants gently move in the current for example. And do not assume that filtration + flow are everything. 2 is not a solution for everything just like 7 is not "everything". 

And 2+7 is not everything either


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I do routinely maintain my filter and the circulation is great. But I hadn't changed the biomedia ever (in 4 years). It would seem some brands say "good for life" and other recommend changing it every 6 months or so. I'm not sure if this actually varies from product to product or if some companies are either trying to get you to buy more or trying to sell you on promises of "good for life." (I'm a cynical shopper).

So I swapped 2/3 of my "change every 6 months" with some "good for life" and figured that would be a good start. The mesh bag I had my original stuff in was pretty gnarly so I removed that too.

While I don't like changing two things at once when trouble shooting a problem, I plan on adding back some of the KH2PO4 slowly. So we'll see which thing was actually the problem. 

I appreciate that there are seemingly infinite factors in maintaining a miniature ecosystem but I did not understand the EI method to be more than a point of departure- it's worked for me up until now without too much complication.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Think of biofilter medias in terms of cleanability. You have pieces of some material that is supposed to house microorganisms. Meaning it has nooks and crannies for them to hide and attach. These nooks and crannies are very small and can clog. The microorganisms die, stuff flows in... Now there are less nooks and crannies. You rinse the media but that does not clean it all. That is Problem 1.

Problem 2 - some substances may cover the media like glue. There is no cleaning possible. Think slime, plant juice, oil...

Problem 3 - the media has not been designed to allow the microorganisms to attach well. Only one media (Poret) has been designed specifically for fish farm filtration. Everything else is material used for other purposes originally. 

Find Yo-han's post about what biofiltration is. You will be interested to learn that the conversion of Ammonia to Nitrate is a tiny part of biofiltration. Like 5%! And it really depends on pH for example.

Hope all that teaches you to love the little complicated glass box more. It is a living thing!


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## old 97 (Jul 25, 2011)

Emily6 said:


> ,,,,,phosphate levels ,,,,,,
> 
> ,,,,They were +10!  ,,,,,
> ,,,,,I've only been adding 1/4 tsp. 3x a week to 65 gallons.,,,,,
> ,,,, suddenly build up and create such problems?


The fertilator tell us that you are adding 1 ppm of P a day. Do that for the week , and yeah, +10ppm.

The 'build up' was not sudden; you are adding every week.

To discover actual consumption approach this mathematically. Take an initial reading, continue with feeding and waterchanges without the addition of any P - for a week or three. Retest for phosphate.
You may find P consumption may be less than one PPM/week; and that it may be provided by the fish.

Considering P has always been at these concentrations it may not be fair to label it as the culprit now.

Also consider that is is very possible to growth excellent plants without a filter whatsoever.
-The only definitive answer to life the universe and everything,
is 42


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

All good advice- 

I had assumed that no filter media could truly be good forever but frankly I loath cleaning my filter, so I got a bit lax. I'll need to remember to check it more often.

It was my plan to monitor the phosphate over time and see what addition was actually needed, if any. The other factor that might be different is that there are no longer shrimp and instead I have 6 large angel fish- the shrimp might have kept the brown algae down and the angel fish could be increasing the phosphates. So I should have made an adjustment to my fertilizing back when this happened a year or so ago.

Time will reveal the real problem I'm sure. 

Thanks, guys!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ah yes. Also look at the filter as an insurance policy. You can live many years without one. One sunny day a friendly doctor will be happy to invite you in his office because you bring him... the joy of helping you, haha. And money. Same with the tank - long time with no filter is ok until the day when problems come and stay. What did you save, what did you win? It is up to you to decide.

Without a filter Ammonia will be more available to the plants. That is just about the best source of N they can get. In a well established planted tank removing the filter leads to one thing - the very next day the plants perk up even more. Because a little Ammonia is available now instead of being eaten by the filter. Some folk even add pure Ammonia which is playing with fire and considered "cool" among real planted tank addicts. Either way - the filter does much more than convert Ammonia to something not so reactive. If you get rid of the filter you will get rid of a huge part of the processing going on in the tank. Now the plants need to handle everything. And they can do it, yes. The tank will look cool standing there without any pipes hooked up to it. But there is risk because we do not live in a static world:

One other thing that you must remember is that if you live in a city the tap water varies from day to day. Meaning that you don't even know what you are introducing every time you do a water change. That is not about P and N but about all kinds of wonderful chemicals (hormones and other medicine included). So a standalone tank without a filter is totally doable, except you need to live in a place where the water supply is stable. Not that the filter is a cure for all but it does silently take care of many more things we care to know about.


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## niru (Feb 8, 2012)

Well the EI method is a bit step above the usual cleanliness routine. The method (if read, understood and implemrnted correctly) is about providing ample amounts of quality ingredients for planrs to snack upon.

The maintaining a clean filter, proper circulation, unclogged media, water changes, etc are all part of the husbandary, daily chores. So to start and understand EI like a pro, or to that extent planted tanks in general, these activities are assumed done.

No point in bashing... Amano himself is aware of ei and Barr. They both dont care whos bashing or praising them. They talk and walk and think and do scientific approach.

Check you other fert uptakes, and then come to consumption conclusions. Having a badly maintained filter is no pointer to EI failure. I have seen tanks of Barr and Amano. Both are lovely. So clearly their methods give same results.

Why such animosity?

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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Animosity? No.

Only saying things as they should be said - that no one approach or technique is everything. That should be said because it has easily gotten lost in the last 10 years:

1. EI is a fertilization method. Nothing else. It is not a holistic method to run a planted tank. It is not a system with interacting parts. It is a part of the whole. But most people see EI as a full blown method to run a planted tank. That is why when problems arise the focus is on just part of the possible solutions - varying the chemical additions and water changes.

2. EI is not about "providing ample" fertilizers. The numbers in the original EI thread are given as starting points. They are written for people that have no clue where to start with fertilizers. You are given a reasonable starting point. From there you need to adjust your fertilizers. If you go back and read the original EI thread you will see clearly all of these suggestions.

But most people take the initial numbers to be set in stone. And somehow that leads most people to also believe that more ferts are better. In reality you can run a much more problem-free tank by lowering the ferts dosage - adjusting, exactly as EI suggests. Some plants do require higher ferts and that's what the adjustment part is all about.

3. Most people that use EI get in this hobby with little or no understanding how to run a clean aquarium. Usually they see a few pretty Japanese tanks, and when they get on an US forum EI is the first thing they see. Many people follow EI and naturally that is what a newbie believes is the way to run a planted tank. Nowhere, no one tells anyone that you need to first get the basics right. Topics like biological filtration, mechanical filtration, water flow rate, flow pattern, overall stability, organics accumulation and reduction are the basics that we are just now starting to discuss.


4. The biggest USA aquascaping contest is AGA's. Last year in it there where about 10 US tanks compared to more than 100 foreign entries. The US aquascapes left a lot to be desired. That is a strange situation. It is logical to suppose that the mediocre state of the US aquascaping is partly due to the preocupation with fertilizers and equipment. It is the same pattern as viewing EI as a method to run a planted tank - focusing on only part of the whole. The results are good but not what they can be and leave a lot of questions unanswered.


As you see - it is not about animosity. It is about clarity.


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## niru (Feb 8, 2012)

So EI is not at fault. Improper implementation of ei plus thinking of it as a magic bullet... this is at fault. So the proponents of ei and guys who "understand" the necessary baggage that comes with this hobby, they nor the method can be faulted. 

Unfortunately thats what i see in many posts here by a few enthusiasts. My point is this needs to change.

Compared with pmdd or other older methods, ei does do a good job of providing ferts. Not everyone has access to God given ADA soils or ferts. Nor many can afford it. Plus most other liquid ferts are mostly selling water diluted ferts... Advertisements and endorsements hike their prices... Hobby gets costly. EI is a cost effective way to initiate folks into understanding ferts, co2, light, filteration etc.. It makes you think since what you buy is what is sold.. no mumbo jumbo commercialisation. Plus the originator doesnt get royalty for your successfull tank. 

Maybe the intentions are allright, but the tone and the target ought to be different. Argue with science not for sake of 1 upmanship. 

All successfull tank owners do their basic cleanliness and filterations.. EI is only estimative. Rather than starving the plants and then increasing ferts, it starts from the other direction. Quite scientific I think. ADA does the same. Hence initial fert leaching, followed by their l8quid squirts.

Its analogous to issues with Apple and Android or Windows versus Unix/Linux. 

Lastly, regarding scaping competitions, perhaps US folks are busy doing else and not keen on displaying their tanks, as much as in East. Europe too is similar. You have hotspots in Germany, and elsewhere... But that doesnt mean people dont have beautiful ranks for private eyes only. Not all are after achieving recognition.

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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

This is an interesting link: http://rota.la/ei/

It will allow you to plug in a particular concentration of a nutrient in ppm and then select a % water change per week/month etc. The program will then graph the results and show you how high your nutrient concentration will get based on plant usage and water changes. Check it out, it might help you understand why your P level was 10+


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks, Zapins- how do I convert from teaspoons to PPM? I know approximately what ppm I end up with but not at what increment I'm adding it. Also, it doesn't really account for food waste and planting density. Otherwise, looks like a cool tool.  I see its merits as a dosing guideline.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Use this to convert teaspoons to ppms then put the ppm values into the rota.la site: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php

I don't think you'll have that much phosphate from food unless you are over feeding quite a lot or are using some very phosphate rich foods.

Have a look around in the options tab on the left hand side of the rota.la site there are some extra parameters you can change if you want to get into it in detail, I think food is one of them.


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## themick (Jan 5, 2013)

Hope this is the place to post this. I am using the Macro Micro Nutrient Mix from Aquarium Fertilizer.com, it is a mixture of KNO3/KSO4/MGSO$ and Plantex CSM+B. Would someone be so kind as to recommend a source of Phosphate to supplement my current dosing


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## Mac120 (Sep 21, 2012)

You can use KH2Po4 or (NH4)H2PO4 as phospate source.
Usually a daily dosing around ~0,3-0,6ppm Po4 works fine for most planted tanks.


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## micheljq (Mar 25, 2013)

Your PO4 test maybe not good anymore. I did throw mine into the basket lately. I use the EI method and do not feel I will need a PO4 test anymore anyway. I just test nitrates intermittently and keep on regular water changes.

Something else than PO4 is probably the cause of algae, something you overlooked. We often overlook something.

PO4 is so often blamed for algae issues but rarely the real source of the problem, if at all. There are no nutrients to algae direct correlation existing.

Ammonia will cause algae so you can check biofiltration, water current, water changes, accumulation of waste, overfeeding or overpopulation, etc.

Double check the CO2 levels if you are injecting CO2.

Michel.


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