# [Wet Thumb Forum]-High pH problem



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok, so I set up a 20G long for my fiance in her class room. It's your standard el natural setup w/ a 30W bulb (we couldn't afford a 30" fixture and just used the 36er...) on for about 10 hours a day and the tank faces a bright window and gets about 3 hours of direct sunlight. Anyway, when we set the tank up I tested the water and it had a pH of 7.3 or so. Today (a little over a month later) I tested the water again and it's WAY more than my test kit could read. I'm guessing the pH is easily 8.5 or more. The pH from the tap is only slightly softer than that. So, I'm wondering, at this point is there anything I can do to help bring the pH down in the tank...

-ricardo


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I'd bet pH is moving around a bit from morning to evening... what time of day did you take the reading?


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Hmm, good call Betty... I took the pH at around 4:30pm or so... I'll have to have Kris measure it mon. morning...

-ricardo


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I need to check mine too.
My tap water is around 7.8 with KH at around 7dh. In the evening after having direct sunlight on them part of the day (and plants pearling) the natural planted tanks' pH us up in the 8's. Haven't checked it first thing in the morning tho to see how low it's going.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Wow, Betty's sharp!

Just on the off chance, you don't have any calcium carbonate based rocks or anything in there, do you? That's my only other thought on driving the pH way up. No students "hid" the chalk in there or anything, right?

Ricardo, that's so sweet of you to set up a tank in her classroom! I still credit my 5th grade teacher for really putting me onto the aquarium track - he had a beautiful little planted tank, and I adored the platy babies that magically appeared in the java moss. 

-Jane


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks Jane! She, and her kids, really like the tank... it's even the envy of other teachers so I'm pretty proud of it. I'm just concerned though as she has not had as much plant growth as I've been having in the 30G which doesn't get nearly as much window light. Actually, her light wasn't even on a timer, so the lights were generally on for only a few hours a day and not on weekends. So we installed a timer to help give the plants more light. 

As for my other thoughts on bringing the pH down... I was thinking of adding a bunch of vals to it as I understand that vals can break down carbonates to use as their carbon source. I suspect that this might help bring the pH down?? I'm also thinking of getting her a nice piece of driftwood that might slowly decompose and perhaps help to bring the pH down naturally also. Lastly, I'm going to get an attachment for her powerhead and basically add some peat to her filter. What kind of peat should I get? Should I buy like the fluval stuff or is that just overly expensive? Can I just use saphgum peat moss from my local nursery?

Any other thoughts on lowering the pH will be appreciated. As you can see, we're aiming for a "natural" approach to lower the pH as this is an "El Natural" tank... I may also have her top off the tank w/ distilled water....

-ricardo


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

rick- 
I have used both the fluval brand & generic peat moss and haven't had much luck with either placed in a filter. What I found while researching is that most people who use peat to reduce ph keep it in a seperate tank (half the tank full of peat moss, the other half w/water) and syphen off the water to add to their tanks requiring lower ph. The ph of the "peat" tank was usually around 3/4 so you would have to be careful about how much you add at a time. It is also something that can be set up in a bucket and put in a cabinet/closet. 

Hope this helps!
Erin


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Doesn't that lower both KH and GH?

So what is her KH and GH?

What kinda fish?


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hey Ricardo,

yeah, I'm not surprised her tank is worthy of envy, LOL!

Remember, your 30 g tank has a few weeks of aging on the 20 g classroom setup, right? (I think I have the timeline correct). Yours probably is more established and balanced, and I was going to suggest that you siphon some water (and detritus) from your tank, and put it in her classroom tank. This would get some nice bacterial cultures into the newer setupand add some Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) sources (which will help absorb heavy metals, and push the chemistry away from alkaline). I usually go for the low-tech, low-impact, and easily available solutions. 

I haven't tried the peat method directly, but have had one interesting experience. For my terrarium plants, I use long strand sphagnum peat as one of the main substrate ingredients. To kill fungal spores, the standard procedure is to boil it before using it in a terrarium. 

{ASIDE my boyfriend came over one night when I was boiling a big batch of sphagnum peat. I had also re-heated something yummy smelling in the microwave earlier, so he came in, saw the big stock pot steaming away on the stove, smelled the garlicy goodness and his eyes lit up..... "What'cha cooking?" he asked hopefully. I felt kinda bad (between my laughter) having to tell him that it was peat moss for my terrariums.}

Anyhow, the water drained off after boiling long strand sphagnum peat is a deep golden brown. I also had recently set up my 20 H tank, and it just wasn't breaking in well. Something just wasn't right. I looked at the boiled peat broth, and had an idea. On a bit of a whim, I added about a half cup of the cooled liquid, strained through a brine shrimp net to get out any pieces of peat. I was amazed. The water took on a golden yellow hue, and the fish perked up within a few hours, looking great and behaving much more energetically. Now, I know it was a silly whim thing, but I really lucked out. Personally, I think it was the DOC that did it. Similar to the "Black Water Extract" idea, I used a bit like a tonic. I'm sure there were a lot of organics in there, as I saved a bit of the liquid in a container, and within a few days there was mold on the top. Being boiled, it wasn't FROM the liquid, but probably stuff from the air that landed in the nutritional haven.

So, I don't have hard and fast (or even intentional) experience with this, but I think that the DOC compounds that build up in an established aquarium are of huge benefit. 

It sounds like it will be a great setup, with the sunlight and all. 
-Jane


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Betty: Yes, it would and after actually testing the KH and GH, I've decided that it would not be the best course. I finally tested the hardness as follows: 6dKH and 12dGH so the water isn't THAT hard.... So, I'm def. nixing the idea of peat in the filter and perhaps the vals too....

Jane: WOW! Your powers of observation are far superior to mine! Shame on me for not paying more attention to the cycling of my own tanks!









In any case... I think you're right. I think that her tank (hereinafter referred to as 20g) is going through the same adjustment period as my 30g. I am concerned however, b/c in the 30g I was able to observe new plant growth fairly soon after setting it up and in the 20g, well, not so much. I plan on picking her up a red rubin sword as they seem to grow fast and add nice color. I'm going to wait to see if her vals make a comeback too before adding some of mine. In the mean time, I'll be adding some floaters and some of my water to see if that helps her tank. Actually, I might even try your "experiment" of adding water from boiled peat.... I'll def. keep you updated....

-ricardo


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Erin: I forgot to mention, thanks for the tip of the peat moss. I used to use it in my old So. Am. setup (i kept the granules in my canister filter) but don't know how much it worked since I also added kent's blackwater expert....

Also, got the pH tested this morning. It read 7.6 which means that it's basically swinging from 7.6 in the morning to 8.5 in the afternoon. Is that wide a shift normal? Also, don't know if I posted this before, I measured hardness at 6dKH and 12dGH.... Don't know what, if anything I should do, except transfer some of my water to her tank. Perhaps it's time to start collecting rain water....

-ricardo


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I wouldn't lower KH. From what I've read, I think the pH swings would be even larger if KH was lower. I also wouldn't take GH under 5-6dh as the calcium helps to keep pH from swinging even higher. I'll try to remember and get some readings on my tanks. I'll bet I'm having similar swings given they're so heavily planted and are getting direct sunlight for a good portion of the day.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Yeah, I've pretty much nixed the idea of lowering the hardness. I'm gonna try topping off w/ some of the water from my 30gal and then maybe adding some sort of "blackwater" (extract or self-made) to lower the pH a bit...

-ricardo


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## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

Ricardo-What kind of fish in the classroom tank?
If you have livebearers or other higher pH loving fish and the plants are healthy, I'd leave well enough alone...been my experience, more often than not, when I go to fiddling around with the water chemistry I end up worse than when I started.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

BobB: Let's see, the tank has a pair of rams, some guppies and something else I don't remember. Not exactly alkaline-water-loving fish... Although the rams were bred here in Rockland County and the water here is like liquid rock so it tends to be on the higher end of the pH scale... still though, the guppies were raised in more neutral water... I still haven't decided what to do in this situation. I've just been kinda waiting to see what happens on its own. Kris had to do a large water change in the tank last week, so I'll see what the tank reads later this week and if it continues to have a high pH I might add kent's backwater expert or something similar... 

Thanks everybody for you're input and suggestions!

-ricardo


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