# Filteration!!????



## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

Good Evening (Morning),

I am really new and just trying to get some info before I start buying and building stuff for my tank. This may be a no brainer to you guys but I am really struggling with these thoughts. :help:

I was originally going to buy me a wet/dry sump for my tank. I am not sure if this is a good or a bad filtration for a tank with live plants. I have heard that I may not need the bio filter due to live plants doing that for me. I have also heard that the filteration of the wet/dry helps remove CO2 from your tank, but places more oxygen in it. Both of these seem to be true statements to me, but is the extra bio filter and O2 bad for my tank. I really like the idea of keeping the wet/dry under my tank to be able to water tests, heat the tank, and ad chemicals. I think it would be easier to do water changes there aswell. 

Now on to the canister filter. I have read were many people love these type of filters. I however dont know a thing about them, other than they are an enclosed system. 

I am planing on having a 75 gal tank but I dont know what the GPH filtered should be. I dont know what plants, or fish I am going to have. All I know is I need information and alot of it before I go making a mess of things.

thanks in advance
Zach


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

1st having a idea of what kind of fish and/or plants you want to keep is the 1st step.


Now on to filtraiont, Both have thier pros and cons.

It really is going to depend on many factors. Things like bio load, water changes, local water chemistry, plant density, water change rate, ferts... etc etc. I know lots of hobbyist that don't run any flitration on thier tanks, just power heads/ airlifts to move water. The other is true, I know hobbyist that have flitration "turned up to 11" on thier tanks. Both work, its just a mater of prefrence, wallet, ammount of time spent on the tank and the tank itself.

If it was my tank, I'd most likly go with a canister and then a power head to increase circulation. But I tend to have very light bio loads, lots of light, ferts, co2 and do lots of water changes( I tend to like fish that need super clean water)

IMO a sump is needed for tanks( fresh water anyways) that are ~ 100+ gallons. Or are heavly stocked( to increase water volume and filtering potental)


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Wet dry is vastly superior. Canisters are popular in this hobby because of ease of installation, cheap price, and people not really understanding how important filtration is.

Most people will tell you that with a wet dry the CO2 will fizzle out. That is not true. You can maintain the CO2 level as low as you want, but you don't really need anything below 6.8 which is pretty easy to achieve.

That's all there is to the choice wet dry vs. canister.

--Nikolay


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## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Niko, If light drives Co2 and Co2 drives plant growth then why would 6.1 not be better ?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Officer Swift, this thread, though long, has a great discussion of filtration: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...club/75400-excited-word-about-filtration.html

To reduce your confusion, the numbers Niko and Aquaticz are throwing about refer to pH. pH falls as CO2 levels rise, so pH is used to indirectly measure CO2 levels.

And for a quick answer to your question, you want about 7x to 10x the volume of your tank to circulate every hour. For a 75, that means roughly 500 to 750 gph. This can come from a single filter, multiple filters, or a combination of filter and powerheads. Your sump would work fine.

Aquaticz, as pH goes down, beneficial bacteria metabolize more slowly, reducing the effectiveness of biofiltration. That's why a pH of 6.1 (higher CO2) is not better than a ph of 6.8 (lower CO2).

Balance is the key to planted tanks.

--Michael


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

On my 40 gallon planted tank, I use 2 powerheads. I like the flow they give me, i use them to blow my diy co2 around, and I have no cycling related problems. I don't really think filtration is all that important in a planted tank as opposed to non, so long as you have a good amount of healthy plant mass. As far as measuring co2 via ph, that can be pretty misleading, if my ph was 6.8, my co2 would be around 52 ppm. It's all preference, as stated, but I also have my overkill heater (which hasn't come on since about February with this heat) hidden behind tall anubias, and the only chems I use are fertilizers, which I just dump into the flow from my powerhead.


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## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

I know when you measure for CO2 that you dont just take PH in account you have to take KH in account aswell. I found a helpful chart on, aquarticles.com. Here is the chart


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

You got it. I don't know about the water to the north, but here it's pretty hard.

I use this calculator
http://www.fishfriend.com/aquarium_co2_calculator.html


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## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

I am really enjoying this topic of dicussion. I have noticed people like to dodge the questions I have about Wet/Dry sumps. I think it has to do with either an inexperience with them or they just prefer canister pumps. I dont know if I am true on this or not. I feel like when it comes to filtering your tanks that you should see what is going on. That way you will know if you have any problems or you will be able to stop a problem before it occurs. I "think" that a Wet/Dry sump is a more visual filter than most, and that puts my mind at ease somewhat.

I have people telling me that I need to know what fish I am going to have or plants before I tackle my filteration, but if I have efficiant filteration its not going to matter the bio load. My filter should be able to handle it no matter what. 

Something I dont understand is how people get that using a powerhead will give them more GPH filteration. I have read some on the matter of calculating GPH and Niko's article was quit interesting, and laid out some key points. In order to reach 100% filteration you need to filter roughly 12 times the amount of your tank and sumps capacity per hour. I dont understand the concept of powerheads other than to give your tank movement. If I am pumping 1200 gph (assuming I have a 25g sump and 75g tank.) through some spray bars I should have plenty if not more than enough circulation, which I may need to address. 

I am going to through another question out at you guys. If I have a CO2 tank added to my sump and pumped it through to the tank. Would it allow me to have enough CO2? I am going to shoot for 25-30 ppm CO2 which I was thinking if I could get fish that lived in 6 -7.2 PH and 1-10 KH I would have a ideal place for my plants and fish to live. Then I just have to takle how to get my water to hang in the correct lvls for the maximum eficiancy. 

Thanks for your thoughts and keep them coming. 
Zach


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

Were you planning on using tap water or ro? I just use tap, and kh is about 11 degrees. Ph and 'ideal' conditions aren't really as important as keeping it constant. And I have absolutely no experience with wet dry. Well, none of my aquariums are drilled, and from what I read overflows you can buy aren't 100% reliable, so I tried to build my own. Two days and about 100 gallons of water in my living room later, I decided against it. I am sure it's possible to keep your co2 up with a sump, I just really don't know if a sump is at all necessary for a planted aquarium. My philosophy has become simple=better. A sump would make water changes easier it seems, which was my motivation.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

there is such a thing as having too much filtration. 

The power head deal is to stop stagnation. Areas with out water movement tend to have "stuff" build up there.

As far as my comments about knowing what fish/plants you want to keep before choosing flitration. The reason for this is 3 fold. 1 flow, some like it, others don't. 2 cost, If you are only going to say put a pair apistos, there is no reason to spend the money on larger filtration. 3 some fish need super clean water... no ammount of filtration is going to be able to keep up with a water change. Discus come to mind here. Most discus keepers use spong filters and frequent massive water changes to keep thier tanks clean.

I like wet/drys, They have thier strengths and thier weakness. I also like fuildized bed filters. Both are realtivly "high tech" compared to say a cansiter. That does not mean they are the best solution to filtration. Lets face it, a canister is alot easier to set up and cheaper( for the most part) then a wet dry or a fluidized bed filter.


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## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

I am planning on using tap water D9Vin. I have not tested anything yet so everything is still not concrete. I did however find a DIY overflow that seems to be a good design. Here is the link. http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/120.asp I did a drawing to possibly improve on the design to help reduce an overflow disaster.







you have to look at both images to see the difference.

Tab: 
Sorry to make it seem like I was attacking your question. I guess I am still a bit overwhelmed at all the different fish I could have, and I have barely looked at any plants. I did not think that 100% filtration was going to be bad. In answer to what type of fish, I am toying with the notion of having a cichlid filled tank. But I have not studied them enough yet. I may be putting some rainbows in, with gobies, tetras, maybe some gourmet. I would love to add an electric blue Jack dempsey, if I can make it work. I still have a bunch of thought left to put in to it. Thank you for the info on the power head I didn't think about stagnant water and they help to move the waste around.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, that is pretty much the overflow I was attempting to build. I didn't attach it to a powerhead Venturi, which would have helped I am sure, and I prolly could have gotten it working right, but after a couple disasters, my girlfriend and sister (who I was living with) were dangerously close to the end of their rope. They did t quite see it as a learning experience like me. I recommend getting it fool proofed in the back yard or garage maybe.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Officer_Swift said:


> Something I dont understand is how people get that using a powerhead will give them more GPH filteration. I have read some on the matter of calculating GPH and Niko's article was quit interesting, and laid out some key points. In order to reach 100% filteration you need to filter roughly 12 times the amount of your tank and sumps capacity per hour. I dont understand the concept of powerheads other than to give your tank movement. If I am pumping 1200 gph (assuming I have a 25g sump and 75g tank.) through some spray bars I should have plenty if not more than enough circulation, which I may need to address.


Some of us are convinced that total flow in the tank, or water circulation, is beneficial in itself. This is true wether the water is going through a filter, a powerhead, or both. If the wimpy pumps on our cannister filters do not give us enough flow, we add powerheads.

With 1200 GPH, you will certainly have enough pumping capacity. The next task is to arrange your inlet and outlet so that they help create a uniform flow pattern through the tank. I and other flow fanatics want to see a circular pattern of water movement through the whole tank (gyre), with the plants gently swaying in the current. Carefully placed powerheads can boost the gyre and prevent dead spots of low flow.

Part of the benefit of all this flow is to keep water moving over all the surfaces inside the tank. All of these surfaces are colonized by beneficial biofilm, and are, in effect, a big biofilter. Good circulation also insures that nutrients (including CO2) and oxygen are evenly distributed to all the plants and other organisms in the tank. There also may be other beneficial effects--there seem to be fewer algae problems in tanks with good water movement. Air movement is proven to be good for terrestrial plants in an number of ways. We suspect, but do not know, that the same is true for water movement and aquatic plants.

--Michael


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

P.S. I love them, but a Jack Dempsey is likely to create havoc in a planted tank.


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## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

D9Vin
I did not have to change the schematic. I just wanted my personal touch added to it. The yellow tee has to be just under the water level or right at it, just as the diagram shows. The red part is the siphon break. If the water level goes below the yellow tee then the siphon breaks and no more water comes out. All you have to make sure of now is that your basin your sump is in can hold that whole top layer of water, including what is usually in the basin constantly.

Michael,
I realized after Tab's post that if I just had a circular current the middle of my tank would be swirling with waste. I was doing the math on my filtration and I didn't take in account how fast the wet/dry would take the water. I know that I can get a pump with the capacity I want. I may have another DIY project on my hands. I am disappointed to know that Jack Dempsey like to burrow in the subrate.


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

I wanted to go back to the original post, as there are a couple of questions 
not yet fleshed out. I am by no means an expert on aquatic life, however these are straightforward:



Officer_Swift said:


> . . . I have heard that I may not need the bio filter due to live plants doing that for me. I have also heard that the filteration of the wet/dry helps remove CO2 from your tank, but places more oxygen in it. Both of these seem to be true statements to me, but is the extra bio filter and O2 bad for my tank. I really like the idea of keeping the wet/dry under my tank to be able to water tests, heat the tank, and ad chemicals. I think it would be easier to do water changes there aswell. . .


a) So plants breath CO2 and exhaust O2, removing CO2 deprives plants of a basic ingredient for life. Most of us spend exorbitant amounts of time scheming to _add CO2_ for our plants up to the point where the ratio of CO2 to O2 is unhealthy for the livestock. 
A tank in balance provides CO2 for the plants, they exhaust O2 for the livestock. The _benificial bacteria_ needed to keep your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in balance grow in a variety of places in the aquarium system. One of those places will be the media in your filter, also the substrate, tank walls, rocks, driftwood and plant surfaces. The only aquatic system I am aware of that does not need a filter if properly set-up is a *N*aturally *P*lanted *T*ank.
The whole reason to cycle a new tank is to grow bacteria.
b) I am unclear about the last two statements but here is what I think you are intending;
to use an external filtration system _in part_ because you want an easier(?) method of water testing. Water for testing comes directly from the tank, not the filter.



Officer_Swift said:


> I am planing on having a 75 gal tank . . . I dont know what plants, or fish I am going to have. All I know is I need information and alot of it before I go making a mess of things.


I love people who think.
So with regard to your livestock; there is a terrific tool available to test livestock choices in theory, _before_ you spend a bucket of ducats on the pretty fish or ugly-bugly but oh-so-fascinating shrimp; http://aqadvisor.com.
I am all about the tools, charts and graphs, I was one of many beta testers for the developer two-ish years ago. We were pretty demanding of the developer; want different types of filters factored in, want known traits of livestock factored, want tank dimensions, want, want, want. He has done yeoman's work on behalf of fish keepers and is always willing to tweak the system to give the best results.

Many of the choices depend on your water, so I suggest starting with simple tap water tests now. That will inform your decisions on a whole host of other questions; what plants do well in soft vs hard water, what livestock for same, which substrate will help change or balance the water so you can push your combinations a little. You may never need airstones or you may need higher light to raise the one show-stopper plant. Knowing the basics of your water source is where to start; then building fantastic DIY hardware or plunking down the retirement fund for a fish room to support your growing curiosity makes some sense.
I hope in the end you love this hobby as much as most of us do. Best wishes.


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## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

Hi Giypsy,

Thank you for the valuable information. I do understand that I need to test my water from the tank no the filter. I also know that I need to test my tap water asap. I just dont have the funds for anything right now.

I want to make clear why I want to use the Wet/Dry sump. 

I love to see things work. I will be able to inspect my filter system and see the goings on in it.:lol:
I am going to put my heaters in the sump.
I can add any chemicals I need to add to my tank via the sump. That way it is diluted before it enters the tank. Narrowing the chances of injuring my livestock.
I can make water changes there. I will simply add the amount of water I want to remove to the sump, and take the water from the water coming out of the tank to the filter. That much easier than lifting a 5 gallon bucket 5 foot in the air. 
I will add my CO2 there at my sump. That will allow me to hide unsightly hoses from the CO2 system.
The wet/dry sump will add O2 to the water without agitating the surface in the tank and removing the CO2 from it. Thus giving more O2 for my livestock.
I am sure there are other reasons, I just have not thought of them yet. lol:bounce:

I have been doing alot of thinking on this subject, as I hope you can see. I come up with more and more questions as I think about this subject. I know that CO2 levels should be around 30ppm for optimal plant growth. I will be testing my water a bunch and adjust the levels accordingly. I may however try and keep my CO2 at 20-25ppm. This will increase my chances of keeping livestock happy in my tank. There are many fist that can live in the lvls of PH and KH that produce that amount of CO2.


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

As a follow-up to one of my comments, I want to add something based
on my own research. Last night I read a rather contentious debate on another board
regarding the AQAdvisor amongst apparently experienced aquariusts.
The consensus was that this tool is somehow "dangerous" for those
new to the hobby because it gives precise calculations. This lead
the debaters to the the conclusion that those new to the hobby would be 
too lazy to do their own research. The author rebutted every objection
and asked for specific examples, getting none in the responses.

It is obvious to me you are in full-on research mode, so I do not think the
standard disclaimer applies. Tools allow us to ballpark plans; 
it is still up to us to make choices and learn from them.

Thanks for clarifying your thought process; I think I am going to enjoy this build!


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## Officer_Swift (Sep 3, 2011)

One of the things that drive me batty on the aqadviser is it doesn't include wet/dry filtration. I will use it to plan my livestock. There is another website out there that will allow me to aquascape and add different plants. Looks like it will be November before I can get my 75 gal tank. So, I am thinking of getting a smaller one for cheap untill then. But at least I can do my DIYs one at a time to get ready for it.


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## john borr (Sep 18, 2010)

The subject of wet dry filters came up on another thread recently. They are easy to make yourself but I always found them fiddly. I remember all the hours I spent making one and it worked but wasn't I shocked the day I disconnected it, connected a little internal filter with an airline tube from a yeast generator and the plants in my 20 long suddenly looked like they were going to grow out of my tank, and they did! I haven't used a wet dry since.


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