# Successful El Natural without overfeeding?



## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

I still relatively new to planted tanks and have a few betta tanks setup in an el natural style. I am wondering how long the nutrients in the soil will last if I don't overfeed my bettas. I've heard that bettas will over eat if given the chance, and this can lead to swim bladder problems and even death. I should also mention that I usually feed them Hiakari Betta Pellets. I've also read threads resently where they talked about plant growth slowing down over time, and they suspect that nutrient depletion in the soil as the culprit. This got me worried, that without overfeeding, this will happen to my tanks rather quickly.

So I guess my questions are:

1. Is not overfeeding for fertilization a huge issue?

2. How long should I expect the soil to last without having to replace it or use artificial fertilizers?

3. Do you recommend I start feeding more or possibly using an artificial fertilizer? (I'd rather not use an artificial fertilizer if I don't have too.)


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

I find that my bettas hardly eat any flaked food (they prefer the pellets) and certainly don't eat any of it that has fallen to the bottom. So I feed the bettas the pellets and the plants get flaked food! (The flaked food breaks down the fastest for the plants anyway) 

I usually put the pinch of flaked down in the water with my fingers so it sinks quicker than just floating it on the surface. Hope that helps.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

dt78 said:


> . . . So I guess my questions are:
> 
> 1. Is not overfeeding for fertilization a huge issue?


 It is an issue. Some of us don't like the concept, but others have no problem with it.



> 2. How long should I expect the soil to last without having to replace it or use artificial fertilizers?


 I have a 29 that is in its 4th year and the plants are doing fine, thanks, I assume, to the fish waste that has moved into the substrate.

But - I have other NPT's that need a little additional fertilization every now and then. These are not old setups. All NPT's are different.



> 3. Do you recommend I start feeding more or possibly using an artificial fertilizer? (I'd rather not use an artificial fertilizer if I don't have too.)


 I would suggest that you check the nitrate, phosphate, and GH levels (with accurate test kits) and act according.

Good luck!

Bill


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. I never thought to use flake food along with the pellets. I'll give that a shot. 

I guess if that doesn't seem to be working I'll look into using fertilizers. I'm just a little hesitant as I've been having a little trouble in some of the tanks with algae. Does using fertilizers make the algae worse?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yes. One of the reasons we don't have big algae problems in a NPT is a lack of nutrients in the water column.

So do you have snails in your betta tanks?

How big are the tanks?


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> Yes. One of the reasons we don't have big algae problems in a NPT is a lack of nutrients in the water column.
> 
> So do you have snails in your betta tanks?
> 
> How big are the tanks?


I have 3 tanks that are 2.5 gallons, which contain 1 Betta and 1 apple snail (Pomacea bridgesii), and then I have a 10 gallon tank that is divided in half to create two 5 gallon areas which both have 1 Betta and then some MTS.

Do you think this is ok?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Depending on how big the brig is, it may be pushing it in a 2.5 gallon tank. Check applesnail net to see what their stocking recommendations are for brigs. Seems like I remember 6 gallons per snail. He should be happy with extra food tho. 

Having the smaller snails is good, because they'll help break down the food. Diana discusses this in her book. However, they'll likely reproduce too fast with plenty of food available unless you get nerite snails (whose eggs won't hatch in fresh water). I don't mind that with ramshorn and pond snails because I bait them out with zucchini and feed them to my goldfish. I'm at a loss as to what to do with the MTS tho.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

According the the applesnail.net site, a 2.5 gallon tank is the minimum for just one brig. I can't remember where I read it but the minimum requirements for one betta and one brig together is at least 5 gallons.


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

I just read your replies _DataGuru _& _Red_Rose_, and I'll definitely check into the minimum tank requirements for the snails. Apparently, this is just one more thing I shouldn't have trusted the people at the LFS on. It seems like the more I learn, the less they really seem to know.

The shells on my brigs are still about 1 inch in diameter. If I need to, I will move them to my 29 gallon community tank.

Does anybody know if Kuhli Loaches will eat snails? I have a few in my 10 gallon tanks with the MTS, and the MTS population doesn't seem to be getting any larger. I haven't seen any tiny snails since I first added them to the tank either. I've read that other types of loaches eat snails, but I don't know if this applies to Kuhli Loaches or not. I've also read that people don't use MTS as food because of how hard their shells are. I just thought that maybe when they are still young they are soft enough and this is why I haven't seen an increase in the population.

Thank You for all for all of the input!


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

So after a quick search on Pomacea bridgesii, I have found multiple tank size recomendations ranging from 2.5 gallons to 10 gallons. The majority said either 2.5 gallons or 5 gallons. One of the places I found 2.5 gallons was a care sheet found on a betta forum. Another place was Applesnail.net, and they suggested a minimum of 10L (~2.5 gallons) for medium sized Pomacea bridgesii. 

Since mine are around 1" and the get up to 2.5", do you think they would be considered medium?

If possible I would like to leave them in the 2.5 gallon tanks for now, and then as they get bigger move them over to the 29 gallon. I really don't know much about snails yet, so if you think this is a bad idea please let me know so I can move them right away.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Oh I think you have some leeway since they're not full grown yet. 

I don't think dojo loaches eat MTS.


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> Oh I think you have some leeway since they're not full grown yet.
> 
> I don't think dojo loaches eat MTS.


That's good to know that I have some leeway for the time being. Do you have any idea how fast they grow? I didn't see that information anywhere when I was looking.

As for the MTS and kuhli loaches, I was just trying to figure out why my snail population doesn't seem to be getting larger. It could just be that I haven't really been overfeeding very much, so the population has just reached an equillibrium for the amount of food I've been using. I am happy with the MTS population I currently have and I'm just glad that it hasn't grown out of control like the horror stories I've heard. As long as I can continue to keep them under control, I would like to add them to my other tanks.


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Concerning kuhli loaches and snails, I have a lot of MTS in the aquarium with my kuhlis and one Pomacea bridgesii, but all the other snails are gone. No more ramshorn or pond snails. While the kuhlis might eat some of the smaller MTS, enough survive to keep the population up. I never see tiny MTS, only small, medium and large. The tiny babies must hide well or are just too small to see easily.


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

Hey&#8230;I just figured out who I've been discussing this stuff with (_Betty&#8230;.a.k.a DataGuru_). After trying to grow a few plants in my 29 gallon community tank (with just gravel) for a couple months and without much success, I decided to research planted tanks on the internet. One of the first few things I found where your articles on Setting up a Walstad Natural Planted Tank and the Step by Step Pictorial Guide for your 6 Gallon Hex on thegab.org. Those two pieces of excellent information are what introduced me to the el Natural ideology and to Diana Walstad's book (which I now own and find to be an excellent source of information). Without your articles I probably would have given up on trying to have a planted aquarium as I do not have the time or money to properly set up and maintain a high tech aquarium.

I just wanted to take the time to say thank you for introducing me to the el Natural aquarium.


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

cs_gardener said:


> Concerning kuhli loaches and snails, I have a lot of MTS in the aquarium with my kuhlis and one Pomacea bridgesii, but all the other snails are gone. No more ramshorn or pond snails. While the kuhlis might eat some of the smaller MTS, enough survive to keep the population up. I never see tiny MTS, only small, medium and large. The tiny babies must hide well or are just too small to see easily.


That's good to know. I guess I'll stop looking for the tiny MTS, and just monitor my overall population. Currently it doesn't seem to be increasing or decreasing. It just seems like the average size of the MTS are getting bigger as a whole, but this could very well be that I just don't see the smaller ones.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You're welcome! 
NPTs are awsome aren't they!!!

How long brigs live depends on the water temperature. higher temps and they grow faster and die sooner. Seems like it's a year to 1.5 years, but that's from memory. Applesnail.net is the best source of snail info.

I've heard some accounts of MTS eating other snail eggs.


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