# Plant growth was good at first but now...



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

I didn't change anything but now my plants are not doing as well. Some have even died. I know some die off is normal. And I think maybe I have just not found the right plants to work in my set up.
But even the ones that didn't die are not showing new growth anymore.
I did lose some fish a couple weeks ago so now have less. Could that effect plant growth that much? I now only have four fish in the tank.
1 angelfish
2 glass fish
1 male betta
but even when I had more fish the plant growth had slown down after the first two weeks. Only thing that grows and grows and grows is my water lettuce. lol
I have added some Rotala to replace the stems I had that died off.
Do I need to feed more?
I still have no mulm.
Tank has been set up for about 2 months now.


----------



## haulmark400 (Feb 21, 2009)

I would like to know more background information on your tank setup:
What kind of soil did you use?
What kind of cap is over the soil?
What kind of lights are you using?
How long are lights on?
What kind of filtration are you using?
How many water changes have you done?
Please list names of plants that were being used. We need the details of what you have to help.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

What kind of soil did you use? Earth grow potting soil

What kind of cap is over the soil? gravel

What kind of lights are you using? two GE white lights one plant light. 50 watts of light on 29 gallon tank. (not sure how old they are so was thinking of replacing a one of two this weekend depending on how much they cost. Any recommendations?)

How long are lights on? 10 hours

What kind of filtration are you using? small 20 gallon filter but nothing in it just for water movement.

How many water changes have you done? two but only cause of sick fish. (no longer sick)

Please list names of plants that were being used. We need the details of what you have to help.
Crypts of some sort.
Rotala
some sort of small chain sword maybe?
and several Anubias
I was not able to place this tank in front of a window. So no window light. I was doing 14 hours of light but was getting to much algae from that so cut it to 12 and couple days ago cut it to 10.

Ammonia 0
nitrate5
nitrite 0
gh 100ish
kh 80
ph 7.4


----------



## haulmark400 (Feb 21, 2009)

After seeing what your setup is I have an opinion. I think the Earth Grow Potting soil may be the reason for your trouble. I googled the stuff and read the ingredients. There is no clay in it. Your plants may have depleted the nutrients already. I would like to say that I am new to the Walstad method myself. Not being an expert that is where I think your trouble is. I am using topsoil that was bagged. My tanks have only been going for a few weeks. I tried bagged potting soil in a 10 gallon tank over a year ago and noticed plant growth weaken and plants failing after a couple of months. I blamed the soil I used. Feeding the fish more heavily may help to replenish the nutrients. You could experiment with dosing ferts to see if the plants perk up. If they do then you will know that you need more of a topsoil to mix with the potting soil.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

The top soil I bought was the only one that had that didn't have a bunch of stuff added to it. So no clue what else to get and not looking forward to breaking down the tank. 
So guess I well try feeding more. Ferts cost way to much for me to spend on them.


----------



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

you said only two water changes were done, that over what period of time?


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Yes the tank has only been set up for about 2 months.


----------



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

Angie said:


> Yes the tank has only been set up for about 2 months.


i don't know enough about "el natural" but changing the water only twice in two months is too little... adding fresh water also adds some minerals etc for the plants, i would do it a little more often. i hope that helps some!


----------



## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Angie said:


> Yes the tank has only been set up for about 2 months.


In my experience of maintaining Walstad-tanks, it is typical for plant growth to slow down after a couple months. Unless there is a specific reason for targeting a particular growth rate, I wouldn't be bothered by the slow down.

As to reducing the lighting period to 10 hours in order to cut down on algae, I am not sure that will work over the long run. Plants needs something like a 12-hour lighting period to maintain a healthy growth. It may be far better to cut down on the light level but maintain a 12-hour period. Another way is introducing floating plants to out compete the algae.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Ok so up the light time to 12 hours.
I have water lettuce it grows like a weed. Only thing that is still showing lots of growht.
Damian part of the charm of a el natural tank is little to no water changes.


----------



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

i see, i hope it start doing better now


----------



## freshyleif (Jan 9, 2008)

Water lettuce can eat up a lot of nutrients in the water column. They might be hogging the available nutrients from the others. just a thought good luck.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Hmm never thought of that. I just thinned it out again to day. I do that about twice a week. Maybe Ill remove it all into anouther tank. I have lots in other tanks so I can replace it if I need too.


----------



## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Angie said:


> I have water lettuce it grows like a weed. Only thing that is still showing lots of growht.


That is because floating plants have the aerial advantage.

BTW, allowing floating plants (water lettuce, duck weed, etc) to cover more water surface will reduce the light intensity reaching below. That will help to cut down those algae caused by too much intensity.



Angie said:


> part of the charm of a el natural tank is little to no water changes.


Other than using up an already precious global natural resource that will only be more and more scarce, changing water can be a form of sweeping things under the carpet - I know something is out of balance but I don't know why, so I just change water to restore the balance. Meanwhile I keep doing what I did that had been contributing to the imbalance and therefore more water change down the road. The alternative is understanding how our actions can contribute to the imbalance and change what we do to eliminate the need of water change.

I never changed water for any of my Walstad-tanks. Plants grow well. Fish are healthy. I use plain old top soil. Thus, no water change even for the initial set-up period. I use a TDS monitor to provide continuous first line feedback on water quality. A mere glance at the TDS display gives an instant report on water quality. Thus, despite the various things that I had tried on the tanks, water quality never deteriorated to a level requiring water change.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Angie said:


> Ok so up the light time to 12 hours.
> I have water lettuce it grows like a weed. Only thing that is still showing lots of growht.
> Damian part of the charm of a el natural tank is little to no water changes.


If your water lettuce is growing well, the tank has enough ordinary nutrients (CO2 might be the exception). Make sure the water lettuce isn't totally shading the submerged plants.

Glad to hear that you upped the daylength from 10 to 12 hr.

You also might want to post a picture of your tank. There could be some little thing that we're not catching.


----------



## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Bartoli, it’s a very low risk option to use garden top soil that is not fertilized or sprayed with ‘cides. I would do the same if I don’t make my own mix of substrate. Alas, the ‘top soil’ that many people buy can have many unlisted ingredients in it. It could have some 10-10-10 mixed in with black dirt and bagged up for sale! So in the water, the stuffs are leaching like crazy and in these situations, water changes periodically would be necessary until the tank becomes stable, then it can coast. The weedy growth of water lecture is indicative of rich N/P, and they also block out the light so the plants below are dying or can not grow well. Plants can also die if the concentration of nutrients in the water is too much for them. If you remove some of the water lecture, I would still do a water change, although I would test for nitrogen/phosphorous levels first.

And I do think the TDS meter comes in handy.


----------



## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

goldier said:


> Alas, the 'top soil' that many people buy can have many unlisted ingredients in it. It could have some 10-10-10 mixed in with black dirt and bagged up for sale!


There are several ways to screen out those "enriched" top soils. One is checking the soil's ingredient list. Thus, when looking for a top soil, I ignored those that did not bother to provide an ingredient list.

The other way is the price. The cheaper is a top soil, the less likely it has something added - adding extra will cost more which will in turn lower the profit margin unless the price is higher.

Then there is the bottle test as suggested in Ms. Walstad's book.

The top soil that I ended up using was Premier Liteway Black Earth (by Premier Horticulture of Premier Tech):

http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/...ingMediaTM/LiteWay/BlackEarth/fBlackEarth.htm


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Todays picture.
I thined out the water lettuce more then I norally do. Left very few. I also replaced all the lights with 6000k cool white lights. Still have 50 watts on the tank.









This was the tank yesterday.


----------



## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

The plants perk right up toward the light! They're gonna like it.



bartoli said:


> There are several ways to screen out those "enriched" top soils. One is checking the soil's ingredient list. Thus, when looking for a top soil, I ignored those that did not bother to provide an ingredient list.
> 
> The other way is the price. The cheaper is a top soil, the less likely it has something added - adding extra will cost more which will in turn lower the profit margin unless the price is higher.
> 
> ...


Going with a reputable source like that would prevent trouble water for sure. I recall I read on this forum that Ms. Walstad recommended some brand of Miracle Gro top soil that she used, although some WC in the beginning would be required. If people have patient, they can wait out the initial surge of nitrogen and such, along with the help of floating plants. But when fish and plants die, I would do something.

I would be leery of no brand cheap soil for the reason that it may be reclaimed or contaminated soil with heavy metals, etc&#8230;


----------



## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

goldier said:


> I recall I read on this forum that Ms. Walstad recommended some brand of Miracle Gro top soil that she used


That was the organic choice potting soil:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=468765&postcount=30

As stated in the message, the soil probably has already been mineralized.

Note that the actual product name as shown on the bag is "Organic Choice Potting Mix". See the second photo in the message:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=475536&postcount=61


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Angie said:


> Todays picture.
> I thined out the water lettuce more then I norally do. Left very few. I also replaced all the lights with 6000k cool white lights. Still have 50 watts on the tank.
> 
> 
> ...


Hello Angie,

Photos help. I think your tank looks fine. Angelfish looks eager for food.

I can't believe the difference in the _Rotala rotundifolia _(stem plant on the right). It's standing up with the new lights, but bending over with the old lights. Did you stage this? 

That lighting change may have turned things around.

The other variable we haven't covered is water hardness. If you think your plants continue to do poorly, I'd make sure that your water isn't too soft. Be sure to slow the flow rate of your filter as much as possible.

If plants continue to respond to the new light, I think you'll be set. From what I've seen in these two pictures, I wouldn't give up on this tank.

Cute vase!


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Bully (my angelfish) would eat all day if I fed him. lol
The stems already have new growth too. But nothing else does. However the way crypts grow I would not notice it right away and the other ones grow so slow.
So am hoping the light well be a big help and I am feeding more fish food.


----------



## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Angie, Crypts, Anubias and even Ferns, it will take quite some time for you to notice the growth. I believe you have lower temperature in your country than mine - usually plants do better in the temperature of 26-28 degree Celsius. Something I can hardly achieve without a chiller in my country. Give the Crypts some time. They just love rich soil. 

My narrow leaf ferns actually took more than a year to start growing (You may not believe it. I hardly believe it myself except I saw them with my own eyes). Luckily my friends told me to leave them in the tank when I wanted to get rid of the bald ferns.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

I keep the tank at 80 degrees F. During the summer I turn of the heater and it stays at 80 degrees.


----------



## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Angie, your temperature seems perfect. Wish I can have such temperature in my tank.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

The new stuff is growing. You can tell cause its the greener and smaller top part on the plants.


----------



## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

Angie,
I'm sure the light replacement was all you needed. It's always the light...

You need more tanks! 5 is simply not enough!


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

LOL
Well the new growth on the rotala is different. I expected that. So been trimming and replanting so that that if fills.
Got some new growth on some of the other plants too. So I am happy with it.
Ill post new pictures this weekend.


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Updated pictures. Removed some of those anabuis(sp) that I hate so much to my 10 gallon. Left a couple in here and added a sword plant.
I am also using excel when I remember. I cap 2-3 times a week. Once a month water changes.
It looks much better in person then the pictures does. I am very happy with it now days.


----------



## kimcadmus (Nov 23, 2008)

Looks good! Congrats and diagnosing the issues and being patient! I see that angel is still hungry.

Kim


----------



## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Hungry? I don't think so he eats two to three times a day. Just wish I could get some mulm to show up.


----------

