# Co2 Bubble Count



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Hello people, well tommorow I am going to fill my 5lb tank, also have a millwakee regulator (solenoid and bubble counter). So tommorow nite after work I am gonna set it up on my tank which is a 120 gallon and contains 6 - 6" Red Belly Piranhas.

I just checked my water parameters and they are as follows (also I am on well water and think I am gonna go back to getting my water jugs filled as it is inexpensiive where I live):
PH - 6.0
GH - 100
KH - under 10mg/l
Ammonia - 0.01


I have my lights to stay on for approx 12 hours, and gonna have the Co2 come on and go off at the same time. SO how many bubbles per second should I set this at??


----------



## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

You have pretty soft water for well water. I've never seen that before. Are you sure your reading ar correct? Do you perhaps run your water therough a softener?

In regards to your question, there is no way to tell you exactly how many BPS you will need to achieve your goal. You can start with around 3 and adjust from there until you hit your target pH.

Also I would reduce your lighting period to 9 hours for the time being in order to mitigate the proliferation of algae.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes it does go through a water softner.

Will reduce the hours to 9 for the lights. 

What should my PH goal be, and also would I might be better just to leave the CO2 on all the time.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Are you talking about a home water softener that you dump salt into? This might work out OK for keeping fish, but your plants probably won't like all the sodium.

What kind of reactor or diffuser are you using? If you have a super-efficient one you might get by on 2-3 bps. If you're just running it through an airstone into the tank I'd say more like 4 or 5 bps, or even more, but everone's setup is different.

I usually tell people to set out a water sample open to air for about 48 hours. Check its pH and then aim for 1.0 pH units below this. Get there slowly (over several days) & watch the fish carefully. If they show stress, back off immediately. I'd seriously recommend keeping your KH above 3, preferably 4 to avoid a pH crash. If you're already down to 6.0 you'll have a hard time adding much CO2.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Quaic Boy, so you are saying that it is a good idea to take a water sampple and place it outside of the tank for 2 days, eg)fill a mason jar and leave it out for two days?

Also for KH, what is the number you should keep it at. All i know is that it is below 10, where below I am unsure. In general do you want a high or low KH value and if so, what is the different between 4 and 6.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Also I do have a water sofner but the tap i fill my tank from is directly from the well outside.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, using a sample of water that has come to equilibruim with the atmosphere will give you an idea of what the water's true baseline pH is. If you then drive it down about 1.0 pH units from there using CO2, you should have a pretty reasonable CO2 dose.

With KH, be sure you don't confuse units. My test kits reads in ppm. I need to convert it to get degrees. Most people talk about german degrees hardness. To convert between the two, multiply your ppm reading by 0.056 to get degrees hardness.

Once you get that sorted out, a good KH to shoot for is between 3 and 4. More is fine - many people have water above 10 or 15, less is not ok.

My tapwater KH is about 0.5. I add about 2 teaspoons of NaHCO3 (baking soda) to 20 gallons of water at waterchange time and I end up with about 4.5 degrees hardness.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Make sure about your pH and kh numbers. It seems to me if your water out of the well has a kh of less than 1, you wouldn't need to run it through a softener for your home since it is already extremely soft. As guaic said, if your kh is indeed that low you will need to raise it to safely use CO2.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Group, 

I have taken three water samples and sat them out in the air for 24 hours. WIll check them when I get home from work. The first sample is directly out of the fish tank, one directly from the well, and the last one is from the water softner unit. Will post results tonite and go from there.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Quaic Boy, per your statement above, what units are we talking about. I have placed my comments in RED.

Once you get that sorted out, a good KH to shoot for is between 3 and 4 ° of hardness. More is fine - many people have water above 10 or 15 PPM, less is not ok."

Just having a hard timing following as you say 3-4 is OK, but then say not to go below 10 or 15.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Also, for a rule of thumb. 

When you add Co2 to your tank, does this drive your pH down or up. Just trying to make rules, to what the effects are for Co2, pH, and KH.


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Bert H said:


> Make sure about your pH and kh numbers. It seems to me if your water out of the well has a kh of less than 1, you wouldn't need to run it through a softener for your home since it is already extremely soft. As guaic said, if your kh is indeed that low you will need to raise it to safely use CO2.


Water softeners address GH only. How high or low his KH is would not be relevant in deciding to soften or not.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

To clarify, there are some confusing things here.....

First of all, KH is almost always expresed in degrees. For whatever reason, some test kit manufacturers have elected to give results in ppm. This is pefectly fine, but is not usually the convention among planted tank people. Mulitply ppm by 0.056 to get degrees hardness. More than 3-4 degrees is ok, less is not. Does that help?

KH is a measure of a water's ability to buffer an acid (or a base). For most naturally occuring fresh water, this buffering capacity is acquired as the water passes through limestone (CaCO3) in its way to your tap. If it picks up a lot of CaCO3 on its voyage, the water will have a high KH, and if not, it will have a low KH. Adding baking soda (NaHCO3) also puts CO3 into your water, raising the KH. Unfortunately, some sodium comes along too, but we all seem to get by anyway. Adding calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is also a perfectly acceptable way to raise KH, but it isn't very soluble so most people don't use it.

GH, or general hardness , is a total measure of the dissolved divalent cations in the water (usually Ca and Mg). Your home water softener removes these from the water using an ion exchange technology, but adds NaCl (or KCl, depending on the type) in the process. This will add a ton of sodium to the water and it's usually not so good for the plants. That's why if softer water (lower GH) is desired for an aquarium, most people go with either distilled water or RO water.

Now, concerning your ? about pH from CO2.....

When CO2 is dissolved in water, a small percentage (<1%) of it will chemically react with water to form carbonic acid. The net result is that you will lower the pH of the water. If you add enough to lower your pH by 1.0 units from your equilibrium value, you'll usually end up about where you want to be in terms of concentration. If your starting KH is low - making your starting pH quite low, then you'll run into problems quickly. It simply won't be possible to add much CO2 without making battery acid out of your tank. If you add enough baking soda to get your KH up to 4 or 5, you'll be able to add much more CO2 without bottoming out the pH.

I must stress though, that you should make changes slowly. Dissolving any solid chemical substance in water will increase it's osmotic load. Fish don't like quick changes. If you suddenly change your KH from 1 to 5 by using baking soda you'll get a rapid pH shift, a quick osmotic shift, and your fish might go belly up (tetras for sure, goldfish might not notice). Make changes slowly, maybe 1 KH unit increase per day. Then, when you're ready to add CO2, slolwy crank it up over several days to see how the fish react. An overdose of CO2 will kill fish every single time. Adding dry chemicals willy-nilly will kill fish quite often if you don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> To clarify, there are some confusing things here.....
> 
> First of all, KH is almost always expresed in degrees. For whatever reason, some test kit manufacturers have elected to give results in ppm. This is pefectly fine, but is not usually the convention among planted tank people. Mulitply ppm by 0.056 to get degrees hardness. More than 3-4 degrees is ok, less is not. Does that help?
> 
> ...


Just for posterity I can state that I tried to grow plants with "softened" water and it was a total disaster from the start.

If you are reading this and wondering if you can get away with it.. you can't. Your plants will disentigrate almost immediately. Don't even try it. Figure out a way around your home water softener, or give up planted aquaria. PERIOD.

I found out that the cold water feed to my kitchen sink was unsoftened, and viola, just like magic, once I started collecting that in a vat, warming it, and then using it for water changes, my plants started growing wonderfully.

Softened water is a DISASTER waiting to happen.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Thanks for the posts back, and yes Quaic Boy I am starting to understnad better specifcially Kh, pH, and Co2.

So for instance if I get home tonite, and after checking all three water samples that I have left out (tank, well, and water softner) and if the results of my tank come out as this
pH - 6.0
Kh - .5 - 1°dh

If this is the case and I want to get my Kh up to around 4°, and I have a 110 gallons of water approx. Based on calculations at this website (http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/C...+(Teaspoons)=1.37&SKH=.5&EKH=4&pHChange=0.00d) I will need to add 8.46 teaspoons of baking soda. This change will also drive a pH change of 2. Which will bring my pH up to 8.0. Will do this slowly over the nect 3-4 days to avoid shocking my fish. Once the kh /pH is increased I will be able to start adding C02 slowly over the nect few days. Now based on what I haev read above I should add Co2 until I see a drop of 1 pH unit during the daytime when the Co2 system is running, I am quessing this will equate to a Co2 level of 30ppms.

Will post later, thanks again.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yep, sounds good. If you don't have fish in the tank you can make the change quite quickly. If you do, slow & steady.....

You might consider starting a low flow of CO2 while the KH is coming up so that the pH stays a little more constant.... Either way is fine. If you really are going from pH 6.0 to pH 8.0 that's quite a jump. I'd err on the slow side, IMO.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Well guys just tested the following and here is the results

Tank Water (sat outside for 24 hours)
pH = 6.2
GH = 180ppm
KH = 10ppm - .5°

Tank Water (directly from tank)
pH = 6.0
GH = 160 ppm
KH = 10ppm - .5°

Well Water
pH = 8.1
GH = 60ppm
Kh = 180ppm - 10°

Water Softner 
pH = 8.0
GH = Below 20ppm
KH = 190ppm - 11°

So what does everyone think? Also what could be bringing my pH down, I have added some new driftwood and also some gravel that is on top of my exisiting sand. What do you figure of the pH and Kh going down from my well to when it is in the fishtank?


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Jsut want to also confirm with everyone is that the water I have been filling my tank with is directly from the WELL.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

So next step, if I use the calculator, it says to get to 4° I need to add 8 teaspoons. It also that the pH will increase by 2.00 to go from 0.5° to 4°. SO that woudl bring my pH up to around 8. Should I go this path and start adding baking soda slowly over the next few days???


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Strange..... KH usually doesn't drop by that much on its own. You've been filling the tank from the well? How often do you do water changes? I'd really expect the tank water to match the source water pretty closely unless you don't do WC's very often. If your tank KH is 0.5 you're already flirting with disaster. The slightest addition of acid would rapidly drop your pH.

Instead of adding baking soda you could just do some water changes. If you well water really is KH 10, the KH of your tank should rise pretty quickly just by doing that.

You're sure about those KH numbers?


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

wguttrid said:


> Well guys just tested the following and here is the results
> 
> Tank Water (sat outside for 24 hours)
> pH = 6.2
> ...


I think it's really weird that your well water has a GH lower than the KH.

I was under the impression that that was virtually unheard of in nature.


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

wguttrid said:


> So next step, if I use the calculator, it says to get to 4° I need to add 8 teaspoons. It also that the pH will increase by 2.00 to go from 0.5° to 4°. SO that woudl bring my pH up to around 8. Should I go this path and start adding baking soda slowly over the next few days???


Just don't use your "softened" water.

The sodium content will anihilate your plants in a matter of days.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes I checked the Kh values several times and each time I basically got the same results.

As for water changes, that is something I have been lazy with this last month as all my times has been just building the hood and getting everything all set up. IF I was lacking on the water changes would this drive the pH and Kh down?


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Well guys just did a 25% water change and here is the results:

pH-6.8
Gh - 120ppm
Kh - 50ppm = 2.8°

Should I do another water change tommorow, eg.) another 25% or should I go ahead and do the baking soda thing.


----------



## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

If I were you I would do 50% WC once a week using only well water. Your well water is not too hard, similar to mine and I grow quite a bit well. The only problems you will have is growing the sensitive Rotala species and other softwater plants. 

You will most likely have to leave your CO2 running 24/7 if you decide to go this route (kH 10), as the pH will shoot up quite a bit overnight. This will leave you with hardly any CO2 several hours into the photoperiod (if you have CO2 on same timer as the lights).

Rig up some king of drain/fill gadget to help you with water changes. It will make everything a whole lot easier.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

If I were you, I'd want to know why your kh is going from 10 out of the tap to less than 1 in the tank. :!: Something's going on somewhere that doesn't make sense. As far as your well water parameters go, you will fine for most plants except some of the Toninas and Eriocaulons which require soft waters. I have similar water (kh10, gh12) and have now figured out I can even grow macranda in it, by the addition of Mg (most of my gh comes from Ca).


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I agree with Bert - best to figure out why your tank KH is only 1 - it shouldn't be unless you've added a strong acid like HCl (or a pH down type product) which would consume the carbonate buffer.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

How about new driftwood which is the only real new item in the tank?

Well guys just checked my water again after yesterdays water change and here is the results

pH = 7.2
GH = 100ppm
KH = 50 ppm = 2.8°

Going to start adding baking soda.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK, but once you start regular water changes with well water you won't need to add any.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

So do you guys think the drift wood might be the problem?


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I doubt it. It can lower KH, but only a little, and not that quickly, IME.


----------



## wguttrid (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes true, but I am worried that due to slacking on my water changes the last month or so this is why my tank paremeters were so low before I did the 25% water change this week. Maybe over the last few months my numbers have been slowly decreasing. 

Will stay on top of water chnages no that things are slowing coming together.


----------

