# Walstad setup 14 hours old: Add fish?



## tacp18 (Jan 16, 2019)

I just ran numbers, and amazingly enough my numbers are all ZERO. I don't know if 14 hours is enough time for any parameters to start spiking, but I was thinking of adding some fish now. I sent the wife to the store to get 6 feeder fish, but that was before I checked my numbers. Now I'm thinking of throwing my Betta in there as well, but I'm just concerned about a spike before I can catch it. This is in a 20 gallon long

So questions:

1. Is it okay to go ahead and throw betta in? 

2. If I put my good fish (betta) in, how often should I check parameters to ensure safety? 

3. Will I have any future problems having used Just Natural Premium Organic All-Purpose Garden Soil? 

0.04%N
0.004%Ammonical N
0.004%Water Soluble N
0.012%Water Insoluble N

0.06%P

0.04%K

Derived from poultry litter, feather meal and worm castings


I added little under half a cup of bone meal and little over half a cup of organic garden lime to the bottom, added little over an inch of dirt, then little over an inch of Caribsea River Pearl. My goal was only an inch, but it's hard to get 100% even coverage. I don't believe the depth goes higher than 1.5"'s for either substrate. Probably averaging around 1.25"'s overall for EACH. I've got various plants in now, and my wife is picking me up even more as I type. (increased amount of duckweed and the pygmy sword)

PH is sitting at 7.47 @75.7 F with a TDS of 127ppm. 


Will take any and all advice. Still doing research as I set it up.

edit--Oh and I use RODI remineralized with Salty Shrimp GH/KH+, because it's what I have aged in my 55 gallon drum for my shrimp tank.


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## stefant (Jan 7, 2018)

Dwalstad adds fish at this point but I personally would wait for the tank to cycle (about two weeks). I think you will see ammonia and nitrite spikes.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

It depends quite strongly on plants. Healthy, established fast growing submersed and emersed/floating plants can absorb majority, if not all ammonia/nitrite/nitrate from the beginning. To be on safe side, I'd wait at least a couple of days with daily measurement of parameters. If all looks still fine and you see new growth in plants, it should be OK to add fish. 

Although from your post I understand that you are buying new plants, which in most cases must go through transition state from emersed to submerged growth and during this time there is next to no nitrate consumption. 

Also I would expect substrate to start leaching ammonia and nitrite/nitrate + possible nitrate respiration to occur during the first week(s). It happened to me last time and it took a bit of effort to get parameters in check. IMHO it's not worth to rush things, but I completely understand the desire..been there, done that


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## tacp18 (Jan 16, 2019)

Well I've decided to keep my prize bettas out of the tank for now  I DO have 6 feeder fish, a Mystery snail and a slew of tiny rabbit snails, in there. Everything seems to be thriving so far, and feeder fish keep munching on my recently added blackworms. 

I'm going to try and not rush things, but boy oh boy is it hard.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

lol
14 hours > add livestock


only if you dont care about it dying?...

a single flat reading Literally doesnt mean anything. 

+ if they are all zero (all) then it further proves your tank isnt fully cycled yet :/ especially in low tech tanks, you'll have nitrates.... even more so in walstad.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

IMHO, the problem of cycling a new tank needn't exist.

Consider a new, bare tank filled with tap water, treated to remove chlorine/chloramines if necessary. That tank is immediately cycled; there is nothing to decompose! Fish can be added immediately. The only caution would be to increase the number of fish slowly.

If the hypothetical tank has a well "mineralized" substrate, there is little there to decompose, and if there are growing plants they should take care of any ammonia, etc., that is produced. Fish can be added immediately.

Now, if the new tank has an enriched substrate, new issues are presented. The additives will decompose and add ammonia which needs to be dealt with before fish are added. No argument there. But one of the several nice things about a Walstad-type tank is that it makes things much simpler.

So, I'd suggest using a mineralized substrate, planting lots of fast growers, and then start adding fish, a few at a time, from day 1, and stop worrying about "cycling".

Good luck!

Bill


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

A dirt tank does cycle faster with the organics and soil nitrifying bacteria but it'll take longer than 14 hour. Wait till you have some nitrate reading, maybe a week or 2.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

aquabillpers said:


> IMHO, the problem of cycling a new tank needn't exist.
> 
> Consider a new, bare tank filled with tap water, treated to remove chlorine/chloramines if necessary. That tank is immediately cycled; there is nothing to decompose!


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nitrifying-bacteria


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I'm not sure what you mean, but nitrifying bacteria are found everywhere that there is food for them - rocks, glass, substrate, etc.

Bill


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

aquabillpers said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, but nitrifying bacteria are found everywhere that there is food for them - rocks, glass, substrate, etc.
> 
> Bill


thats the point.

There isnt enough X to make nitrates yet.
Therefor a sufficient colony of nitrifying bacteria has not been established in this tank if all his reading are 0.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Welcome to APC, tacp18!

I don't know if anyone has done serious research to determine just how important cycling a tank is. I suspect someone has done that, but I don't recall reading about it. Many of us have ignored cycling, and it worked out for us. I used to just wait a couple of weeks, then add a very few fish to the tank. After another week I would add a few more, etc. until I had all of the fish I wanted. It worked.

For the past few years I have been more rigorous about cycling, adding about 1 ppm of ammonia, monitoring the ammonia and nitrite readings until I was sure the ammonia eating bacteria was established. Then monitoring nitrite alone until I had none in the water, so I could assume the nitrite eating bacteria was established. The only improvement that has given me is that I no longer lose any fish during that process. I did use to occasionally lose a fish or two on startup. I enjoy doing the cycling process now, so I keep doing it, whether it is needed or not.

It took me 15 days to cycle my tank this last time, so I had 15 days of fun doing it, and no fish deaths.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to APC, tacp18!
> 
> I don't know if anyone has done serious research to determine just how important cycling a tank is. I suspect someone has done that, but I don't recall reading about it.












i haven't seen a statement i could possibly disagree more with in all my forum years.

Didnt expect that today.

Just some, basic links im going to chuck out here.

https://kb.rspca.org.au/why-is-an-u...tant-when-setting-up-a-fish-aquarium_454.html
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/filter-tank-cycling.html
https://aquariuminfo.org/cycling.html


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## tacp18 (Jan 16, 2019)

So, sitting at almost 48 hours and my values are currently sitting at:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0

PH has gone down a good amount, and is now at 7.0 even. TDS has risen slightly and is at 150ppm at 76.4F

So far the feeder fish I put in to help cycle are all alive, as are the snails. The cloudiness has cleared up a bit more, and I don't notice any significant algal growth, which I was worried about. Lights have been set to go for 10 hours. The blackworms have all mostly submerged now, but it was hilarious watching the feeders going for those worms. They have lived like kings! 

So far things are looking good! I'm keeping my fingers crossed though. 

I appreciate the input I've received so far.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

you put feeder fish in the tank?

well i guess you may as well welcome parasites before they just randomly appear, now u at least u have something to blame it on. lol. 

But all seriousness, as dustinsfishtanks says, i highly do not recommend in fish cycling, for reasons that have been proven 1000's of times over the decades.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

There's no need to cycle an NPT.

The plants, *assuming they are growing*, will take up the small amounts of ammonia generated by a modest fish load. Moreover, a fertile soil is loaded with nitrifying bacteria.

Tanks that require initial cycling are those with poor plant growth, gravel, and a large number of fish.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

DutchMuch said:


> i haven't seen a statement i could possibly disagree more with in all my forum years.
> 
> Didnt expect that today.
> 
> ...


There is no question that cycling a tank is widely accepted as a vital part in starting a new tank. But, I haven't seen a report of any controlled tests that demonstrated how vital it is. Such reports may exist, but I just haven't seen them. However, as Ms Walstad posted, people don't cycle El Natural tanks, and I know from my experiences that you can do fine without cycling. Also, to the best of my knowledge Tom Barr doesn't cycle any of his tanks, and he also does very well with all of his tanks I have seen. I enjoy the cycling process as I am doing it, so I do it for the possible benefit, and my enjoyment, not because I believe it is essential.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Maybe I missed something, but I believe that there are at least 3 categories of tank "cycling". By the term "cycle/cycling" I understand that at the end of this process, a tank has enough beneficial bacteria to "immediately" convert ammonia -> nitrites -> nitrates.

1. instant cycle = NPT or seeded filter media
2. fishless cycle = daily addition of pure ammonia
3. fish-in cycle = drop in a few (feeder) fish and don't care about possibility of their limited lifespan

So even people "not doing a cycle" are technically performing it. Please correct me if I'm wrong


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Tanks that require initial cycling are those with poor plant growth, gravel, and a large number of fish.


i just linked to multiple articles and videos saying this is false, i am going to immediately assume it got entirely disregarded.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

DutchMuch said:


> well its official this forum has reached a new low.
> 
> i just linked to multiple articles and videos saying this is false, i am going to immediately assume it got entirely disregarded.


Not sure if you know but the people you're criticizing have more experience than you're alive


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

mistergreen said:


> Not sure if you know but the people you're criticizing have more experience than you're alive


i re-read her post, and i must be missing something.... i had a fellow friend explain this to me in even more detail, and i continue to miss something... so unfortunately i will not understand what i quoted fully apparently.

To me a cycled tank is: when a tank reaches a mature and stable equilibrium (yes this includes having a adapted colony of nitrifying bacteria)

What im saying is,
i dont understand how a tank that is in need of cycling, specifically has a gravel substrate. or large numbers of fish?....

and i out of experience have had cycling tanks, packed with plants, that have excellent or even sufficient plant growth?

Take note i am only commenting Specifically on what i quoted, nothing more nothing less.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

If you create a healthy environment for plant growth, and plant heavily with healthy plants, they will absorb any ammonia from fish or other natural sources. I've done it. Plants take the place of nitrifying bacteria in a Walstad tank.

Dutch Much, this is not a good way to get attention.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I just want to Break Down what i am reading here, into what im translating it into.

"Tanks that require initial cycling"
Tanks that are not already cycled.

"are those with poor plant growth"
Tanks that are not cycled have unhealthy plant's

"gravel"
all uncycled tanks have gravel

"and large number of fish"
all uncycled tanks have a unhealthy amount of inhabitants.



Michael said:


> If you create a healthy environment for plant growth, and plant heavily with healthy plants, they will absorb any ammonia from fish or other natural sources. I've done it. Plants take the place of nitrifying bacteria in a Walstad tank.
> 
> Dutch Much, this is not a good way to get attention.


didnt realize i was purposely trying to get attention, sorry for having my own thoughts i know thats a strict thing currently...

like i said previously, im obviously misunderstanding this.

with your statement, i completely agree? therefor i must be missing something.

Edit #3:
"plants take the place of nitrifying bacteria in a walstad tank"
(i'm talking about any scape in general but it still applies)
Yes because the plants absorb the ammonia and etc etc, i get that... hmm... so the fact i completely agree with you, and still disagree with what specifically my quote of her said, i must be really losing it... lol.

Edit #4:
Im presuming this is exactly what diana meant since no one else has corrected what im thinking she meant to be incorrect, so i still have to disagree and stick with everything i said previously.


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## stefant (Jan 7, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> There's no need to cycle an NPT.
> 
> The plants, *assuming they are growing*, will take up the small amounts of ammonia generated by a modest fish load. Moreover, a fertile soil is loaded with nitrifying bacteria.
> 
> Tanks that require initial cycling are those with poor plant growth, gravel, and a large number of fish.


Yes, but the soil may leach ammonia, right? The nitrifying bacteria are there but they may need time to process this ammonia. In my tank started according to your method to the best of my ability I saw ammonia and nitrite levels rise and go away during the first two weeks.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Many people dont realize my 40b is dirted, because i usually crop the bottom 6" of the photo out lol...

i usually never test my tanks params, but when i first started the tank i pre washed and soaked the soil for a few days/weeks before actually putting it in the tank (to start the scape, etc). so i Presume that this method removes a bit of the ammonia depending on how much maintenance you provide the soil before adding it to your aquaria.
Sometimes people just throw the soil straight in the tank! but i imagine that would have a big ol' ammonia burst at the beginning depending on the type of soil and whats in it etc


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## tacp18 (Jan 16, 2019)

Now sitting at 76 hours. 

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

PH is a little higher than it was yesterday, but this is a night time value vs daytime value. 7.4 @ 76F. TDS has risen a tiny bit more, to 161ppm.


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## stefant (Jan 7, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> Many people dont realize my 40b is dirted, because i usually crop the bottom 6" of the photo out lol...
> 
> i usually never test my tanks params, but when i first started the tank i pre washed and soaked the soil for a few days/weeks before actually putting it in the tank (to start the scape, etc). so i Presume that this method removes a bit of the ammonia depending on how much maintenance you provide the soil before adding it to your aquaria.
> Sometimes people just throw the soil straight in the tank! but i imagine that would have a big ol' ammonia burst at the beginning depending on the type of soil and whats in it etc


Yes, I think soaking the soil first may be a good idea in order to get rid of excess ammonia, but it shouldn't be necessary, i.e. dwalstad does not do this step. Next time I will try with a different soil, but I will also wait about two weeks before adding any fish. You need lots of plants and fast-growing plants. I spent about US$80 on plants for my 24 gallon tank and I had quite a few plants but mostly _Cryptocoryne_ and java ferns which weren't the best choice. At least not java ferns because they don't have roots going into the soil. I had java moss too. And plenty of _Vallisneria_ but they didn't survive, perhaps I planted them too deep. I did have floating plants (_Salvinia natans_) which grew like crazy for many months. After a while I added four different types of fast-growing stem plants. Two of them have survived. I also added _Monosolenium tenerum_.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Fast growing plants are very helpful, and floating or emersed plant are especially good because they are not limited by carbon availability.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

tacp18 said:


> Now sitting at 76 hours.
> 
> Ammonia: 0
> Nitrite: 0
> ...


Have you tested your test kits to be sure they work right? You can put a drop of household ammonia, no soap or detergent, into a container of water, then do the test. If you have KNO3 to use as fertilizer, you can add a bit to another container of water and do the test on that. Nitrite test kits are harder to test, but they are also, in my experience, a more reliable test. It is unusual to have zero nitrate in an aquarium, and that test kit only works if you follow the instructions exactly. So, you need to verify that it works, and you are doing it right.


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## tacp18 (Jan 16, 2019)

I'm aware of how finicky those testers can be, and I've had results other than zero in the past (I've only had this test kit for max of 5 months, that I've used on my main tank). I also beat the ever living piss out of the Nitrate test solution number 2, because I've heard there are particles that like to stick on the bottom as well. I'm not above verifying they are working though. I'll run some tap water through the tests, and my wife said she could pick up some Ammonia for me later. 

So far though, the livestock I currently have in the tank seem to be doing well.

edit--Needless to say, I'll likely be doing daily tests, for at least a month.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

stefant said:


> Yes, but the soil may leach ammonia, right? The nitrifying bacteria are there but they may need time to process this ammonia. In my tank started according to your method to the best of my ability I saw ammonia and nitrite levels rise and go away during the first two weeks.


You're right. Some soils release more ammonia/nitrite than others; some soils have less nitrifying bacteria than others. The first 2-6 weeks are always tricky. Be prepared to measure nitrite and ammonia, change water, and carefully monitor fish behavior.


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## stefant (Jan 7, 2018)

tacp18, how is the tank developing?


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## tacp18 (Jan 16, 2019)

I've been having to do 50% water changes the last 4 days. Ammonia spikes are getting pretty heavy. I took out all the fish last night, because I'm just not going to risk them. I'm just going to do an ammonia cycle on it. I don't want to risk my Betta, and those feeders were a PITA! to remove from my tank. I ended up having to completely replant it, while removing the loaches, so took the feeders out too. Other than that, plant growth is looking good. It's a little cloudier than I would prefer, but I'm hoping that clears up. 

I've since set up my 10 gallon in the same method and have my male betta in there. Checking parameters, and things are good so far. I'll probably just keep him in there alone, so I don't have to deal with as bad of ammonia spikes. Fingers crossed of course, and I have a back up plan for him, if I have to move him.

edit--I'll try and remember to get some pictures posted soon.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tacp18 said:


> I've been having to do 50% water changes the last 4 days. Ammonia spikes are getting pretty heavy. I took out all the fish last night, because I'm just not going to risk them. I'm just going to do an ammonia cycle on it. I don't want to risk my Betta, and those feeders were a PITA! to remove from my tank. I ended up having to completely replant it, while removing the loaches, so took the feeders out too. Other than that, plant growth is looking good. It's a little cloudier than I would prefer, but I'm hoping that clears up.


>



aquabillpers said:


> Consider a new, bare tank filled with tap water, treated to remove chlorine/chloramines if necessary. That tank is immediately cycled


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