# Don't know how to stock my tank



## carolakia (Apr 26, 2019)

Hello there! I'm new to this forum my name is Carola and a month and a half ago i finished setting up a 10G El Natural tank following Diana Walstad's book. It's been a hard read for me but I've managed to set it up close to how she does it. I did put a HOB filter because I wanted water circulation. I was worrying a bit about the biofilm that was on top.

Currently in my tank i have 3 amazon swords, one rapidly growing water hyacinth, a choped and re planted hornworth, 5 stem plants that i dont know the name of, flame moss, and another plant that I can´t identify. I live in Mexico so when you go buy the plants, not everyone knows the names. 
My stock is 4 red cherry shrimps, tons of baby shrimp, and 2 snails that i dunno what type they are. They just appeared. 
The plants are growing like crazy. The have easily tripled in size.

I wanted to add a male betta, but I've seen that with 10 gallons I can add more. Now I'm unsure of what to add. I was thinking Panda corys and neon tetras but would that overstock the tank???

I've checked the AQAdvisor and it says that with 5 tetras and 4 corys plus my shrimp I'm still in range.

But with the book it says that I should understock so I'm pretty lost to how many fish can I have and still have an understocked 10 G aquarium.

I´ll add some pitucres to illustrate.
If anyone can help that would be highly appreciated.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Welcome to APC! Your aquarium looks great!

I don't think your shrimp will survive a beta being there with them. Most fish view any other fish that they can get in their mouth as food. And, a beta does have a big mouth! I would add 4-5 panda corys, and another 5 small tetras or rasboras. Even with those, the baby shrimp would likely end up as food.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Hey congrats on your first tank! It looks good.

Just out of curiosity, is you main interest in the growing plants, having fish, or both equally?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to APC! Your aquarium looks great!
> 
> I don't think your shrimp will survive a beta being there with them. Most fish view any other fish that they can get in their mouth as food. And, a beta does have a big mouth! I would add 4-5 panda corys, and another 5 small tetras or rasboras. Even with those, the baby shrimp would likely end up as food.


just my opinion here:
shrimp can be with bettas (in experience) add shrimp first though, then add the betta a (example) week later or so.

Also i'd do a minimum of 6 panda's if you decide to go that route, because they are highly social. + schoolers.


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## jrIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Betta will eat shrimp.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Red cherry shrimp can reproduce very rapidly, filling the tank with their babies. Having a beta in with them could be a control on their population growth, and it would ensure having a nice happy healthy beta, too. Whether this appeals to you depends on your own feelings about the livestock you have. When I had red cherry shrimp, with fish in the tank with them, I ended up with no shrimp after a month or so. I can't be sure this was due to poor tank maintenance causing the death of the shrimp, or the fish assuming dinner was served.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

carolakia said:


> I was thinking Panda corys and neon tetras but would that overstock the tank???
> 
> I've checked the AQAdvisor and it says that with 5 tetras and 4 corys plus my shrimp I'm still in range.


I think your AQ Advisor is right; you could add that number of tetras and corys. These are small fish and you have a very healthy tank. Nice choice for a 10 gal with shrimp!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> I think your AQ Advisor is right; you could add that number of tetras and corys. These are small fish and you have a very healthy tank. Nice choice for a 10 gal with shrimp!


uh...
dont those both need a min. of 6 of each?... due to the social behavior?...

and having had panda cories myself numerous times, they like to dart everywhere sometimes, very fun active fish, would they work in a 10g? same for the neons. They arent true nano schoolers, maybe CPD's or micro rasboras?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

I'm with DutchMuch, neons don't do very good in low numbers. I started with about 6 cardinal tetras (which are basically bigger neons) and they were almost always hiding, once I upped their number to 15, they were much more active and fun to watch. Now I have only 2 left and I pretty much never see them, they don't come out even during feeding time. I need to use a flashlight and search the jungle to check if they're still alive. 

It surely depends also on the tank layout, light strength etc., but I wouldn't buy less than 10 specimen of such schooling fish.


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## carolakia (Apr 26, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> Hey congrats on your first tank! It looks good.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, is you main interest in the growing plants, having fish, or both equally?


Well I think what drew me into building a tank was the beautiful aquascapes that you can accomplish with plants. Only then did I find the fish interesting. I do want to have both, right now I'm amazed with my tank. But I think a fish o a few fish will give it more activity.


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## carolakia (Apr 26, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to APC! Your aquarium looks great!
> 
> I don't think your shrimp will survive a beta being there with them. Most fish view any other fish that they can get in their mouth as food. And, a beta does have a big mouth! I would add 4-5 panda corys, and another 5 small tetras or rasboras. Even with those, the baby shrimp would likely end up as food.


Thanks for the response! I'm still thinking about what fish to add.


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## carolakia (Apr 26, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> I think your AQ Advisor is right; you could add that number of tetras and corys. These are small fish and you have a very healthy tank. Nice choice for a 10 gal with shrimp!


Thank you for the response! I have to say that the book you wrote really inspired me. Nature is so darn amazing!


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## carolakia (Apr 26, 2019)

mysiak said:


> I'm with DutchMuch, neons don't do very good in low numbers. I started with about 6 cardinal tetras (which are basically bigger neons) and they were almost always hiding, once I upped their number to 15, they were much more active and fun to watch. Now I have only 2 left and I pretty much never see them, they don't come out even during feeding time. I need to use a flashlight and search the jungle to check if they're still alive.
> 
> It surely depends also on the tank layout, light strength etc., but I wouldn't buy less than 10 specimen of such schooling fish.


Would you say the same for Celestial Pearl Danios? I've also been considering them for the aquarium. Maybe 5-7 of them. I've read that they're schooling fish and that they're not. So I'm a bit confused. Although I know that they are pretty shy at first.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

carolakia said:


> I've read that they're schooling fish and that they're not. So I'm a bit confused. Although I know that they are pretty shy at first.


of course they are schoolers,
whatever / whoever said they arent is nuts.
Yes they are also very social fish, but much smaller and are very nice in nano tanks.
Naturally they live in High vegetation areas, so make sure you can provide them with plenty of plants. They also enjoy other Shiny like fish, this makes them (imo) blend in more and allow them to be more active.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to APC! Your aquarium looks great!
> 
> I don't think your shrimp will survive a beta being there with them. Most fish view any other fish that they can get in their mouth as food. And, a beta does have a big mouth! I would add 4-5 panda corys, and another 5 small tetras or rasboras. Even with those, the baby shrimp would likely end up as food.


I can guarantee that your shrimp won't survive a betta. [EDIT: This is based on my own personal experience, and as pointed out by Dutch Much, may not apply to all bettas in all situations. Your mileage may vary, and you are free to experiment to find out for yourself by doing your own tests.] We had one in a natural planted tank with cherry red shrimp and the shrimp disappeared one after another. If you want to get rid of your shrimp, adding a betta is the easy way to do it!

Donald


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

carolakia said:


> Thanks for the response! I'm still thinking about what fish to add.


The general rule we've always gone by is 1 inch of fish per gallon of water. With plenty of plants we've exceeded that by a small amount (perhaps 10% or so) but you're much better to stay within the 1" per gallon rule.

If you're going to have fish that need buddies (social behavior), with such a small tank (we have one 10 gallon with 7 neons and a cory or two), consider getting all the same type except for a cory or two for bottom cleaning. There are different opinions on how many of certain fish you should have, and I think we read that neons should have 6, so we bought 7. The small tank is so stocked with plants that I'm not sure if all 7 are still there or not, but they seem to be happy.

Donald


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

Couple of thoughts on this thread:
* AqAdvisor.com is a better guide than 1" / gal, as it takes into account an approximation of bioload, and also temperature, hardness, etc.

* Experience with bettas and shrimp vary by individual. I've had agressive hunters, and one that wouldn't eat a shrimp deven when I hit him on the nose with it. 

* Thus, I wouldn't put a betta in when you're trying to establish a shrimp colony. But, when you get to the point where the crawling mass of shrimp give you the willies, try one for population control. I'm doing that now.

* My guess is that the presence of a betta will impact the # of juvenile shrimp disproportionately, so with most bettas, the shrimp population won't decrease noticably until the adults start to age out. Then, the population will drop rapidly. That's a theory.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

ObiQuiet said:


> Couple of thoughts on this thread:
> * AqAdvisor.com is a better guide than 1" / gal, as it takes into account an approximation of bioload, and also temperature, hardness, etc.


Looks like a good site and calculator for general use, especially for bare tanks.

I don't see that it accounts for plant life vs a bare tank. Are there options for that, maybe hidden in the interface? I might have missed that. It does take into consideration the geometry of the tank, which is very important. A tall tank will have less surface area for oxygen pickup while a shallow tank would have much more for a given volume. The calculator there seems to be aware of that.

With plenty of plants in the water, the oxygen in the water should be higher than without plants, and the water change frequency and amount would be way off, too, on a planted tank since the plants, if there are enough of them, should help greatly with the removal/conversion of waste products. So you should be able to go even higher, I would think, in the number of fish for a given tank. We were able to do water changes about 6 months apart in one of our well planted tanks, using RO water for top-ups to replace evaporated water. And we just did it though the water tests didn't indicate any problems.

The inch per gallon figure is a conservative figure to help people just starting out keep from overstocking their tanks. We've exceeded that figure before without any issues. It's one they can take with them in their head to the aquarium shop to get their initial number of fish. They can add to that number later if they wish. We usually stick with that figure or just above it since we're not trying to see how many fish we can get into a tank. The fish just help make the scenery look a little nicer.


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, if you have to give people something to use it has to be both easy to figure and conservative.

(the AQ Advisor rates 100 neons in 110G as 89%, and 100 guppies as 177%... approximately the same length)

Correct that it doesn't take into account plants, but neophytes usually start with few and may have too little light anyway, so there's the built-in conservative estimate.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

ObiQuiet said:


> * Experience with bettas and shrimp vary by individual. I've had aggressive hunters, and one that wouldn't eat a shrimp deven when I hit him on the nose with it.


Yes, i agree.



t2000kw said:


> I can guarantee that your shrimp won't survive a betta. We had one in a natural planted tank with cherry red shrimp and the shrimp disappeared one after another. If you want to get rid of your shrimp, adding a betta is the easy way to do it!
> 
> Donald


Saying that something (_that is, indeed entirely possible_) is not possible due to one experience on your own part that went negatively isn't totally plausible

Unrelated to the above comment, if anyone else does want to know, in my original comment about keeping betta's with shrimp; i said that if you indeed wish to try this, it is better to have a established colony of (ex) cherry shrimp, and* Then * introduce the betta, rather than have the betta in the scape first, then adding cherry shrimp.
Multiple reasons for doing this, and in my experience i find it is due to these reasons:
If adding shrimp with a betta in a scape (who has been there for more than a day lets say) that is already established, the betta will see the falling moving "things" to it as food and try to test its waters. Aka, pecking, then realizing its tasty, then killing them shortly.

If adding shrimp to a bare tank with a betta, before or after establishing shrimp/betta then your chances of having a betta munch the shrimp increase dramatically. Common sense.

If you also feed your fish bi weekly, this isn't to much of a problem depending on how much natural food is in your tank. TL/DR if your betta is hungry it has a higher chance of going for shrimp than it does being full.

---

This all sounds complicated or as if you _*Must*_ do as i say above, but really if you know a thing or two, it's not too difficult to keep a betta with a tank full of shrimp. And of course some research helps on people who have done it before as well...


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

DutchMuch said:


> Saying that something (_that is, indeed entirely possible_) is not possible due to one experience on your own part that went negatively is just cretinous...
> research helps on people who have done it before as well...


I didn't realize our forum has gone downhill to the point where we now have name-calling here, but point taken. Our realities (personal experiences) don't necessarily reflect everyone else's realities, so they may not universally apply. I apologize for not making that clear enough so that everyone understood that regardless of education or background, or that it was evident in and of itself what I meant, and didn't realize I needed to explain that beyond what I said. Hyperbole is often lost on some people, so I probably should have avoided using it the way I did. So, I'll be more clear in the next paragraph so all can understand when I restate what I was trying to say, and I'll avoid using any hyperbolic statement that might not be understood by some people.

Perhaps a better way of stating it would be that, based on my own personal experience, I would expect a different outcome than a surviving shrimp. Or that, if I were a betting person, I would not bet on the shrimp based on my own experience and that of some others (here and elsewhere).

Just so as to not mislead anyone with my personal experience so that they might believe otherwise, I went back and edited my original post so as to let the reader know that this was based on my own personal experience and it may not apply in their situation. Thanks for seeing the need to clarify. Since you didn't understand what I meant, others may not have as well, so I am so sorry to have done that in retrospect. Please be assured that my intent wasn't to irritate anyone to the point of name-calling.

If the original poster has a shrimp or two to do some testing with (that they can spare for the experiment), by all means try it if you wish. That's the only real way to find out if in his or her situation the shrimp will survive with a particular betta (or situation). From the evidence (from posters in this forum and other ones), all we know is that some bettas will eat shrimp and some apparently will not, and that may be due to additional factors involved than merely whether the two are present int he same tank or not. I'm not about to set up experiments to see what factors might be present when a betta will eat a shrimp and when it will not. I will err on the side of caution because we do know that it happens sometimes, and I don't care to feed my shrimp to fish.

Donald


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