# Check out this twist action



## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I need some opinions on what is going on with my E. bleheri compacta and Bacopa Monnieri. These are the only things struggling in my tank. The Bacopa is growing very fast, but the top shoots are coming in very twisted all of a sudden and the bottom and middle leaves are cupped/bent down. The compacta has new leaves coming in all twisted and there are pin holes/general difformity everywhere on this plant. Spots on the oldest leaves are just spot algae. I have Seachem substrate ferts under the compacta as well. Is all this Ca and K related do you think or could it be more complex? All other plants are growing well (two types of Cabomba, Glosso, HC, Corymbosa, and a bunch of others).
Here are my tank specs:

125g, 312w T5 HO (10 hours with 4 lights and a 4 hour burst with all 8 in the middle).
CO2 pressurized
KH 2.5
pH 6.1-6.2 held with pH controller and backed up with sporadic testing
GH 3-4 out of tap, and I add Ca and Mg at water changes in a 3:1 ratio to bring GH to 6 weekly
EI dosing where N is between 15-25ppm constantly, Don't add P except for water changes as it's sitting at 1.0-2.5ppm on it's own, I dose K when I dose the N (KNO3 and I add a little K2SO4).
I also does CSM+B and Iron levels are between .25 and .4 from what I can tell (1/2tsp 3x week).
Flourite substrate
Let me know if you want more info on what I dose, etc.



















I apologize in advance for the blurry moneywort shot, but the camera would not focus due to the pearling


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

Quick update... Newest 'compacta' leaf is coming in looking normal. Also ordered a calcium test so I can measure that and also figure out my Mg based on the Ca findings. I also ordered another canister filter. I've been running one Magnum 350 in the center of the tank, but will now be running two towards the ends. Each will have their own tanks as well which are fed into the intakes. The one tank will be run by selenoid/pH controller. The other will be running continuous, but at a much slower bubble per second rate. Hoping more circulation will help.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

Anyone provide help on this thread, or confirm/deny it's a Ca/k issue?


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Well what is your KPN?

It could be an iron or other micro def. at the root level. This is a guess. 

You need to test for KPN first then Ca/Mg. If all tests are OK the look at micros.


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## peteski312 (Feb 15, 2008)

Probably wouldnt hurt to add a few root tabs, at least for the sword


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I add root tabs, but I think the 'compacta' sword finally "dipped" into them because the 2 newest leaves coming out look perfect.

Some of the new moneywort growth looks deformed, but that too appears to be coming around. Ca test kit will be here this week, so I'll know Ca and MG at that time. I dose CSM+B 1/2 TSP 3x week and when I checked Fe the other day it was showing .4-.5ppm. N runs 15-30ppm steady, P runs 1.0-2.5ppm steady, and I don't test K, but add around 10-12ppm 3x a week when I dose.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I was wrong about the moneywort getting better. I hadn't seen my tank with the lights on for two days and I just looked.... new leaves on the moneywort are coming in twisted. The compacta sword is doing well though. New growth is looking great.

If anyone has any ideas on the twisted (badly deformed) moneywort, please let me know. Ca test kit won't arrive until Friday.


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bryeman,

Some of my plants look just like yours (twisted). Your picture also show some holes on the leaves.

If you remember the following thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/65429-deficiency-overdose.html

My answer to you is that adding more CSM+B doesn't seem to help. I just got my T5 light last week and hope it can help the growth. Guess what? It help the brush algae more than the plants. It's a disaster. Anyway, does your plants also have holes just like mine?


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I hear what you're saying, but the reason you got algae is because something else is deficient in my opinion or you are blasting with too much/too long of lighting. Even with the lighting though, there are people who use a tremendous amount of lighting with very few issues. I really think it comes down to nutrient balance, and I have something out of whack.

I have zero algae in my tank right now (maybe luck considering I have twisted/cupped plant growth) besides spot algea, but I'm going to start having issues soon likely if I can't figure out what's causing the twisted growth. My plant growth/condition (besides twisted moneywort) has improved a lot since the addition of T5's. My Glosso and HC are much improved and growing like they should be growing finally.

The holes in my Compacta leaves have stopped developing and the 2 newest leaves are doing great. I'll continue monitoring that plant, but my big concern right now is the twisted Moneywort. I literally have leaves on those plants that are making loops they are so twisted.

Not many people are commenting on this thread, so my current plan is to check Ca/Mg when my test kit arrives Friday. I already have N and P test kits and everything checks out good. I will also be hooking up another canister filter Friday to increase flow. That filter will also have it's own CO2 tank. If none of these work, then my next thing will be to experiment with the T5 bulbs to see if certain plants don't like certain bulbs. Not sure, but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The key is to track changes and give them time to develop.

Sorry for the long reply, but I get into this hobby and I'm passionate about solving this issue!


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bryeman,

Could you tell me what kind of Ca test kit you are ordering? I am looking at the "Red Sea Calcium Test Kit" but not sure if it's for fresh or salt water? I will also order potassium test kit since my plants show sign of potassium deficiency.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I ordered the Nutrfin test kit (used to be Hagen). it's for fresh and saltwater. I didn't have a lot of time to dork with it today as I'm going out of town tonight, but did dork with it long enough to find out that after only one drop, my test turned violet (dark too!!!). That means I have less than 20ppm of Ca in my water. I'll have to run the tests again tomorrow when I have time to double check, but I have likely confirmed low Ca in my water. Apparently plants use Ca more than I thought. I never added too much per week, but will have to increase. I'll have to figure out what to add per week as well as figure out my Mg levels.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

This test won't measure less then 20ppm though, so if you are looking for something more pinpoint, this might not be for you. It gives a rough idea though. Maybe someone can provide the name of a better brand.


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

Just a quick thought. If your plants really consume Ca that quickly, will it reflect on the GH value also? BTW, what's the optimal reading for Ca and Mg?


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I didn't think plants consumed much of either, so I was only adding 1tsp of CaSO4 per 50-60% water change and 1/4tsp or so of Mg. I'll do more tests today, but the way the Ca test reacted, I have next to no Ca in my tank. Would explain the twisting of the leaves. I'm not positive, but I believe Ca range is 10-30ppm and Mg is 2-5 or something along those line.


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

Your GH is 6 and Ca level is low. Does this indicate you have high Mg? I read somewhere said that high Mg (more than 10ppm) will cause some plants to stop growing! I also read a book said high Mg is normally a cause of Potassium deficiency. I suspect this is what happen to my tank. BTW, the CSM+B I got from www.aquariumfertilizer.com also contains some Mg. Don't overlook the Mg contribution from this source!


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I'll have to sit down and run my tests again tomorrow. Saturday is my 50% water change day. I'll do that in the morning, and then let everythng run for a few hours, then full round of tests. I should be able to start drawing conclusions from that. I now have 2 Magnum 350 canister filters running, each with own CO2, so I have good circulation to say the least. I'm hoping that will help too. I'll let you know what my reading are tomorrow around midday.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

ok Inwu, I did the testing and here is what I found with Ca and Mg. Ca= less than 10ppm (that's as accurate as I could get using a syringe to try and use "less than a drop". My test kit is supposed to turn colors after so many drops, and it turned after one drop, and turned a very dark color (wasn't close to the one drop thresh hold). I also tried to "cut a drop" with a syringe and a bunch of dorking around. Not very scientific, but it tells me that I have under 20ppm Ca for sure, and I'm pretty confident less than 10ppm (less than 5 if I had to guess). The Mg was somewhere between 13.5ppm to 17.1ppm based on all this monkey business. Not totally scientific, but enough data to support well over 10ppm. My plan is to obviously add more Ca and not worry about Mg for several water changes and see if it drops down. There isn't that much Mg in my tap water, so I can bring it down and will. I have not read anywhere though were Mg in that range does damage. Anyone have any thoughts/data on that?


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

I can't find that link any more. But this link suggests that 5-10ppm Mg is enough.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/22541-how-much-magnesium.html

But I think you should at least keep the ratio to 3:1. I currently keep the GH at 4 and not sure if this is enough. Hope someone can give some suggestions.


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