# Sunset hygro new growth is shrivelled!



## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

I have some Sunset Hygro which has been planted in my tank for about 3-4 weeks. When I got it, the tips were beautifully red-veined. Since then, the new growth has been coming out green, but having WHITE veins, and is shrivelled-looking. What am I missing/ doing wrong? Here's my specs: 100g tank, 260 watts c.f.'s, regular small black aquarium gravel with a layer of aquatic plant soil and laterite underneath. Flourish root tabs, Flourish, Flourish Iron. 
Thanks in advance!


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Sound like it could be a calcium deficiency. Here's a link to the deficiency symptoms page at Chuck's Planted Aquaria site.


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## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

Calcium deficiency? As in maybe my water's too soft, and lacking in trace elements and minerals? (Unless calcium comes from somewhere else?) My kH is 9.5, and my GH is 22+, so, if anything, I think my water might be too hard. But how would I find out if my water's lacking in calcium?


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

That's the trick to diagnosing plant deficiencies...an apparent deficiency could actually be a lack of some other element that limits a plants ability to uptake, in your case, calcium.

Try doing some searches on calcium deficiency here and on AquaBotanic's All Wet Thumb forum or The Planted Tank forum or PLanGeek.net.

Planted tank upkeep still seems to be a lot more art than science at this point in time.

Good luck.

Bill


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Well I certainly don't mean to disagree here but I don't think you problem is Ca. It is possible that bhrada is right that an excess or something is causing a deficiency but I dont think so here. Usually when that happens, the deficient nutrient is already a little low or the ratio of hte two related nutrients is very high. With your Gh of 22 I dont think this is the case. One thing I have heard reciently, although this is mearly hearsay, is the very hard waters can cause uptake problems with Flourish and Fe. You dont say anything of your CO2, NO3 or P levels. What are they?

At least from my experiences with this plant, it does like N and high light. You have the high light. I have had the Sunset with green growth with white veins, which then colored up nicely when I started dosing P and Flourish. Colored up fsat and nice too. How much Trace(Flourish) do you dose? Here is what I was doing when I had this plant: P 1ppm, NO3 10ppm, Flourish 1ml every day(in a 10 gallon tank with 4.5 wpg NO florescent) which I could easily have dosed more of wiht out any problems.

Hope that helps a little. What are the rest of your tank parameters?


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Well I certainly don't mean to disagree here but I don't think you problem is Ca. It is possible that bhrada is right that an excess or something is causing a deficiency but I dont think so here. Usually when that happens, the deficient nutrient is already a little low or the ratio of hte two related nutrients is very high. With your Gh of 22 I dont think this is the case. One thing I have heard reciently, although this is mearly hearsay, is the very hard waters can cause uptake problems with Flourish and Fe. You dont say anything of your CO2, NO3 or P levels. What are they?

At least from my experiences with this plant, it does like N and high light. You have the high light. I have had the Sunset with green growth with white veins, which then colored up nicely when I started dosing P and Flourish. Colored up fsat and nice too. How much Trace(Flourish) do you dose? Here is what I was doing when I had this plant: P 1ppm, NO3 10ppm, Flourish 1ml every day(in a 10 gallon tank with 4.5 wpg NO florescent) which I could easily have dosed more of wiht out any problems.

Hope that helps a little. What are the rest of your tank parameters?


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

*Wonder Woman*,
You read enough plant forums and you'll notice a lot of the old timers will simply dose according to plant behavior. Shriveled new growth would point to Ca deficiency regardless of what the test results are. You could always add a small bag of seashell to your tank for a couple of weeks and see if it makes any difference to your Hygro's new growth.

My situation was the opposite from yours. My local water company's last report showed my tap water to average 49ppm of Ca and 21ppm of Mg, which should cover my plant's needs. And my GH measures 13-14° so I thought I would be fine, but if I don't dose an additional 3-5ppm of Epsom Salt (MgSO4) solution every water change my plants (particularly my Ludwigia Repens) start to develop holes in their older leaves. Go figure. :roll:

So I stand by earlier assessment of it being more of an art than science.

In any event, keep us posted of your results, if for no other reason than to make the next person's search on shriveled leaves more productive. 

Bill


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## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

Well, the one thing I haven't stepped up a notch yet in this tank is the ferts. Yes, I have 2.6 wpg, and I finally have co2, and I amended my regular aquarium gravel with a thin bottom layer of aquatic plant soil (profile) and laterite, but I haven't quite figured out how, which, when and how much ferts to use. I have been regularly (twice a week) dosing Flourish and Flourish Iron, and when I re-did the substrate a month ago, I added Flourish Tabs every 4-6" apart. But I know this isn't enough. I wish I had a recipe for my specific size of tank telling me when, how much, and which ferts I should be dosing. 
I don't know what my co2 levels are. I'm sure not enough (2 1-gal. jugs are going right now. One through a powered reactor, and one into a diffusion bell. I'm planning on getting an in-line reactor like the 1000 really soon). I don't get any pearling, but all of my plants (except the sunset hygro) are strong and healthy, with NO algae. 
Last time I tested my no3, it was minimal, but there was some (I'm guessing 10ppm? I'm not sure, I'd have to test again tonight to double-check). My P (phosphate?) was (I THINK) 0, but again, I'd have to check. If I need to start dosing p, I've heard that Fleet Enema is a good source. 
Any other perameters you'd like to know? I might be missing something. 
Thanks for your help!


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I don't have anything scientific to add, but I have it thriving in one tank, and doing just what you're explaining in another. Both tanks have almost identical water chemistry and substrate, but the thriving one has 3.5 wpg, while the shriveling one has 2 wpg. I don't know if it's the lighting that makes the difference, or the difference in tank inhabitants, or??? :?


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## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

Hmmm....it would make sense if the sunset needed higher light. Like most red plants, they need a lot of light, and I think what I have (2.6 wpg) is considered moderate.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I would not worry about your lighting yet. 2.6 pc over 100 gallons is plenty, more or less I htink first you ned to deal with your CO2 issues and get more control over your macro and trace dosing. I am sure your co2 is very low for a planted tank. 2, 1 liter botles of yeast DIY is not nearly enough. That would be ok for maybe a 30 gallon You could set up a Press. CO2 for around 100 bucks or so, I have about 130 in mine but remember it is a one time investment. Refil the tank every 6-8 months for less than 20 dollars. The amount you spend on more lighting would not be less than the CO2 setup and you will cause more problems later with high light and inadequate CO2.

Check your CO2 concentrations. If you don't already know you can test your Kh and pH to get your CO2 levels. Chuck Gadd has a great place for this. Just download the windows program. It works great. Most of us keep our CO2 around 20-30ppm, anything over 15 is acceptable. I bet you have less than 10. Inproving these levels is the best thing you can do for fast growing plants, like your Sunset.

You should also have a good knowledge of what your NO3(and even P) are. For 100gal tank your trace(flourish) dosing is probably a low, although you did not say how much you are dosing.

Get your plants growing good before you worry about the color. Learn what they need and then you can start depriving them of nutrients to bring out their color. Get your CO2 levels up, make sure your NO3 is between 10-15ppm to start, dose to 1ppm of P at your wc and keep up with the trace ferts. You will see a marked improvement in your plants health. Before you start upping the trace and Fe though, get you CO2 going good, or you risk an algae attack.

I have found that the most improtant "elements" of a tank generally go in this order CO2, Light, NO3, Traces(ie. Flourish, TMG, etc), P....

You should already have enough Ca/Mg in your water. If your plants are deficient in these nutrients, and it is certainly possible, then it is probably because the plants are growing poorly due to a lack of a good Carbon source and lack of NO3.

Hope that helps.[/url]


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## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi Dennis, thanks for the help.
Okay, I calculated my co2 levels: pH= 7.8, KH= 9.5, so co2= 4.517 ppm. Again, I know it's very low, even though I'm using 2 1-gallon (not litre) jugs, and I have a pressurized system on my list, but I can't afford it just now. Probably within the next month or so. I've only had co2 for about 1 1/2 months (and am still learning lots about it, and not to be intimidated by it!). 
I forgot to explain my dosing schedule: Flourish and Flourish Iron- 2 capsfuls each twice a week. Not sure how much ppm that is, but it's slightly over what the recommended dosage on the directions are. I also have Tropica Master Grow (which you mentioned), but I'm unsure as to how much and when to dose. The instructions are very vague, and given in litres, I think. What do you suggest?


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Glad it was helpful.

Don't know much about TMG and the others, my only experience is with Flourish. A capful is 5 ml and you dose 4 caps of each per week. So 20ml of flourish and 20 ml of Fe(which, using hte Fertilator at this site gives you ~.12 ppm of Fe, not much at all). By comparison I dose 8-10 ml of each per week in my 10 gallon. You have 100 gallons.... You could dose more but you also will run the risk of having a lot of nutrients build up because of hte lack of CO2. 

What of the NO3 and P tests?

What is your tank like otherwise. Much algae? Do many of the plants grow poorly yet or is this the first real sign of deficency? If algae is not a problem and your other plants seem ok then I would not up the dosing of the traces much. Hopefully others will chime in here and help more there

My best suggestion is to make sure your NO3 does not bottom out. Keep it between 10-15ppm if possible. Here a littel more is better than a little less, IMHO.

WHat is your fish load like?

Try to get CO2 as soon as you can. It wil help you the most. In the mean time, use this opportunity to learn as much as you can Enjoy it


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## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

I'll test my no3 and p tonight. it's been a little while since I last checked. 
As for the state of my plants and tank: 
In my old tank, I had major bba and hair (thread?) algae problems. In this tank, when I first set up (1 1/2 months ago), i had a small bba and hair (thread?) algae problem, but, one by one, each kind has disappeared. I had a dusting of diatoms (brown algae) for a few weeks, but it's gone now too. The ONLY algae I have now is green spot (a little) on the back glass, and a few traces of hair (thread) on a couple of leaves of my biggest sword. But the ramshorn snails and otos do a really good job of cleaning up. My tank is (I would say) 80% algae-free. 
I have tons of hygro (regular kind), which grow very quickly and lushly, several medium-sized and one large-sized sword, lots of val, several tiger lotuses, some red ludwigia, an ambulia forest (maybe a tad leggy, but still growing well), and lots of crypts all over the place. All of these plants are doing well. It's only the sunset hygro which looks like it's in trouble. 
My fish load: I'm at about 1/2 capacity (if you go by regular stocking rules) with small (2") fish. Lots of platies, swords, some otos, cories, angels, and a pair of killis.


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## wonder woman (Apr 8, 2004)

I didn't get a chance to test my no3 or p last night (laundry came first). But i did re-read through a couple of my aquatic plant books. One of them mentioned that the red version of hygro (not sure if they were referring to sunset, or some other version) requires a lot of extra iron in the tank. 
That confirms what i had been thinking. Because, from what I know about plants, the red coloring COMES from iron (like it does in blood). But what I'm confused about is that i had thought i had plenty of iron in my tank already: I have a "first layer" or laterite, which has lots of iron, and I dose slightly over the recommended dosage of Flourish Iron per week for a tank my size (100g). And, I have other red plants (notably, some red flame swords, and an ozelot sword, and a few red tiger lotuses, which are all pretty red, although maybe not as red as they could be, or SHOULD be. But maybe that's still not enough iron, and I should be dosing lots more? Maybe I should buy an iron test?


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## Sir_BlackhOle (Jan 25, 2004)

I would look towards macro deficiency before trace problems, as stated above.


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