# Need help, is this a deficiency?



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

All of my ludwigia and other plants will grow well, but then two or three nodes down, the leaves start to curl under, look like they're dying, and get algae. I would like to eventually have a healthy stem from top to bottom. I'll post pictures soon. Any ideas??

I was thinking calcium deficiency.

It's a 75 gallon, I'm dosing KNO3, and KH2PO4, excel, DIY CO2, and seachem flourish.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi flashbang009,

It could be a calcium deficiency problem; do you have very soft water? I am inclined to think it is more likely a potassium deficiency. Note the leaves bending downward. You may want to dose extra K via K2SO4 (Potassium sulfate). Here is a link I use to help diagnose my problems. Hope this helps!


----------



## DvanK (Dec 8, 2009)

I have the same problem except my plants look a lot worst. I tried adding extra calcium but that didn't work. What i think it is is excessive amount of other components. I will be switching from EI to pps-pro within next few days. I'll let you know if that makes any difference.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

It could be a lot of things. Excess Mg, too little Ca, too little boron, too much boron, salt in the water (sodium) from a water softener, too high temperature... etc.... We need more details.


----------



## freshyleif (Jan 9, 2008)

I agree with Zapins the more you can specify the more help you will get. That being said, I have the same problem. I am fairly sure that it is a simptom of poor light quality.(my light bulbs are to old) I have already tried lowering my KNO3 and upping my KH2PO4 and my K2SO4. I also raised and lowered my CSM+B and Iron FE. NOne of this has had much affect. So I am now ordering new bulbs. Thats my 2 cents.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I am sort of leaning towards bad lighting just judging by the picture. Usually old leaves go brownish with bad light and the new growth is ok, which seems to be what you have. Ludwigia repens always grows wavy leaves so it looks relatively normal to me, but perhaps the picture angle isn't showing the twisting you say is there.

I once had a boron deficiency which made Rotala leaves curl downward along the edges of the leaves but not at the tips. The leaf also had weird colors on it, black areas, transparent areas, green, and the normal red colors. My CSM+B had gone bad after 5 years of using the same batch. The boron probably degraded. 

This doesn't look like what I had, but who knows? Perhaps a better picture will tell? Interesting stuff nonetheless


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Well here's some more info:

Lighting is:

2 t8 32 watt Phillips 6500k (just replaced after about 5 months)
2 t12 40 watt Plant and aquarium grow bulbs (red and blue spectrum emphasis, 1 month old)

Have a powerhead in there too, and a canister filter. I do need to get some new carbon in the filter...

Temp is kept around 80 degrees (+- 1 degree)

I dose flourish, and ferts stated above, and i have diy co2. The more i read about algae and nutrient issues, the more i know i need to switch to pressurized co2. I put up an ad for co2 stuff in the for sale section. 

Other than that, i still have no idea. If i were to classify the problems i would say they have the "2 week syndrome". The leaves grow, then in around 2 weeks they start to wilt and algae grows. 

Also, the main algae i have in the tank is gsa on the glass, and bba on the driftwood and java fern. I would LOVE to get this under control, and have healthy plants. I'm very close to tearing out the stems and letting my java moss cover the ground, and have a grassland tank if i can't figure this out.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

What are your GH and Ca levels? Do you have a water softener that you add salt to in the basement?

Your lights are a bit on the weaker side, but I'm not convinced its low enough to give you these problems, though I suppose that depends on what kind of reflector you have.

Could you post some more pictures? If you can get closer up to the ludwigia that would help. The bacopa looks normal to me from the picture.

You say that your plants have "2 week syndrome" what do you mean by that? Are you buying new plants and putting them in? Where do they come from before that?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi flashbang009,

Thank you for the additional information. I agree with Zapins that your light is on the weaker side however I do not think enough to cause your problem. In your first post you indicated that you fertilized with KNO3, KH2PO4, and Flourish. How are you dosing these; are you following EI, PPS_Pro, or some other method?

I had problems with GSA for months in one of my tanks. I started dosing my KH2PO4 at about 1.5X the recommended EI dose and my GSA stopped. 

BBA is a problem at times for me as well, I usually get it when I let my CO2 levels drop and/or poor water circulation (as the plants grow). I use Glutaradehyde (used to use Seachem Excel) and "spot dose" the affected areas with a syringe.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

I am on city water, so the water softness/hardness is out of my control (yes i know i can change it). Honestly i haven't gotten around to buying any test kits to see how things are because im on a student budget, so $20 for a test kit or two isn't the top priority. I realize it would help tremendously and i plan on doing it soon. 

As for lights, i though around 2 wpg would be good for the plants i was growing. Also, what do you guys mean by what kind of reflector i have?? 

Seattle, i follow ei. I dose according to the sticky for ei.

The two week syndrome i explained earlier, but it is that my plants grow well, but then that portion that grew will die in two weeks. The plant still grows, it just dies prematurely. The plants came from sweetaquatics, and were put in around 2 months ago. I thought they might have grown emersed or something, but all my plants are having the same symptoms.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Looks like good ol' CO2 deficiency to me. Run your DIY off a needle wheel and aim it at the base of the deficient plants or directly at the deficient areas. The bubbles should show you how to angle it best.

The KH2PO4 will definitely help with the GSA.


----------



## Chris. (Dec 22, 2008)

My bet is on the inconsistent co2 levels from DIY co2. When I did DIY on my 20 gallon, the growth was average at best. I also got a god bit of algae, GSA and BBA with DIY. Switching to pressurized got rid of the BBA. GSA has been a trial, but I got it under control with ferts and lighting. GDA is my main problem now, but its not bad, luckily. If you can find a way to make the DIY more consistent, by either adding another bottle to the mix and "T"-ing it in the co2 line to increase levels, and maybe use an air pump gang valve to try and even out the flow a little bit, and make it more constant, I think that would help.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Personally I think there are two issues with the tank. One is weak lighting for that depth. I would find it hard to have healthy stems throughout with that depth and those lights. Two the diy co2 is just very difficult to stay on top of and get consistent numbers.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

flashbang009 said:


> As for lights, i though around 2 wpg would be good for the plants i was growing. Also, what do you guys mean by what kind of reflector i have??


Not necessarily the case. Watts are a bad way of measuring how good a light is for plants. Incandescent bulbs have high wattage ratings but are terrible for growing plants. They are very inefficient and don't put out a lot of lumens (intensity) in the correct spectrum (color). T12 and T8 are less efficient then T5 tubes despite being based on the same concept.

T12 and T8 are less efficient because the bulb is thicker and when light leaves the tube it leaves it in all directions (360 degrees). The light that leaves the bulb on the top half (the light that goes away from the fish tank) is usually reflected back down into the tank with a good reflector. Even with a good reflector the thicker the bulb is the more light is absorbed by the bulb (because it gets in the way of the reflected light) and the less light actually gets into the tank. For this reason, having a good parabolic reflector designed for the bulbs you are using put at the correct distance from the bulbs is very important, otherwise you are wasting at least 50% of the light coming out the bulb straight off the bat before the light even hits the water.

Your 2 wpg is really much less than 1 wpg because about 65% of the light coming out the bulb never makes it to the bottom of the tank where the plants grow. 50% of the light goes to the ceiling and another 15% or so comes out the bulb, is angled downwards towards the tank but is at too shallow an angle to make it to the plants. Then you factor in the depth of the tank and how much light is lost due to water itself and you probably only have about 10-15% of the total light emitted by the bulbs actually making it to the plants. If your bulbs are getting old, or are not the right color temperature then your plants get even less usable light. Your 2 wpg is probably about 0.2 wpg in reality and this is 0.2 wpg of T12 & T8 light, not even 0.2 wpg of T5 light (which is much more intense). I think your problem is really a lighting issue, CO2 will help plants grow fast and healthy, but not without adequate lighting.

Have a look at AHsupply.com they have AMAZING lights and reflectors. They sell power compact bulbs (which are basically T5 lights), just bent back on themselves and have reflectors specifically designed for this bulb type. Their bulb prices are a tad expensive, but you can always look on ebay for cheap bulbs. Coralife, jebo (odyssey), and most other brand companies make CRAP reflectors and therefore crap lighting, go with a good lighting choice and you won't regret it. I think if you got 2x65w system you would have medium light in your 75g tank, you might want to consider more light, probably 2x96w if you plan on having a good foreground. 75 g tanks are pretty deep, and intensity drops off quickly.



flashbang009 said:


> The two week syndrome i explained earlier, but it is that my plants grow well, but then that portion that grew will die in two weeks. The plant still grows, it just dies prematurely. The plants came from sweetaquatics, and were put in around 2 months ago. I thought they might have grown emersed or something, but all my plants are having the same symptoms.


This is probably because they simply don't have enough light to keep their metabolism up.


----------



## jjlin78 (Dec 12, 2009)

flashbang009 said:


> Well here's some more info:
> 
> Have a powerhead in there too, and a canister filter. I do need to get some new carbon in the filter..


couldn't the problem also be the carbon in the filter is sucking out the ferts.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

jjlin78 said:


> couldn't the problem also be the carbon in the filter is sucking out the ferts.


Doubt it. Unless there are resins (like ammonia absorbers) in the filter no fertilizers are absorbed. Carbon doesn't pull out fertilizers - lucky for us


----------



## Chris. (Dec 22, 2008)

I thought activated carbon removes ferts?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Well, i still have the same problem, and its now worse. I now have holes in my leaves, and the plants are deteriorating. I stopped diy co2, which i have a feeling may be the cause. I placed an order for my pressurized co2 parts, that upon receiving i will start. I started pps pro, so i thought that it wouldn't be a deficiency. But I just dont know anymore. I have bba and hair algae, which i'm sure is from the co2 fluctuations. GSA is still there, even with consistent ferts. Don't know what to do guys. Gimme some help


----------



## Chris. (Dec 22, 2008)

holes...lighting. Check out the fishneedit.com lights.


----------



## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

See if this link helps identify your issue: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Yeah see the closest i can find to my problem is potassium deficiency, but i have no idea why if im using pps pro without co2. I know thats not great for the plants, but ill have co2 soon. But if they don't have a ton of co2 to use, why would there be a deficiency if high co2 tanks on pps pro do great???

I'm starting to think it is the light, but i still don't know what to buy. I like Chris's suggestion, but i want to know if there's anything cheaper. I was thinking this: http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...7/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight48 But i just don't know. I wish i had figured this out before i bought my current fixtures...


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi flashbang009,

Sorry to take a while to respond to your QM. Just to summarize so I have everything straight. Yu have a 75 gallon aquarium with four bulbs that give you about 2 WPG (3000K and 6700K?). You are dosing PPS-Pro. You were doing DIY CO2 but have quit. The plants do OK for a couple of weeks, then holes develop in the leaves and your plants are deteriorating. Am I missing anything?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

That sounds about right. The bulbs are 6500k, and im not sure what the plant and aquarium bulb kelvin rating is. Spikes in red and blue though. And i'm planning on starting pressurized co2 as soon as my supplies come in (week or so). But yes, everything else is right. And also right now i've got bba, gsa, and hair algae (bba and hair is from co2 fluctuations).


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi flashbang009,

I read through the posts and could not find if you stated your photoperiod...how many hours a day do you run your lights?

No CO2 means no carbon available to the plants. Excel is good but I seem to have better results if I do CO2 with it. Carbon is one of the building blocks of healthy plant cells. I would re-start the DIY CO2, and dosing Flourish Excel. BTW, Excel dosed at 2X the daily dose is a pretty good algacide and does not effect most plants except Vals.

I checked here to find out a little about Raleigh, NC water. The water is on the softer side, which could be part of the problem. I have that same problem here in Seattle and I used to dose all sorts of "extra" chemicals to "harden up" my water such as CaCl, MgSO4, Boron, etc. Lately I have found that Seachem Equilibrium works better for me and is easier.

I believe in a previous post I suggested it could be a potassium deficiency, did you try dosing additional potassium like K2SO4? Keep us posted!


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks for finding that information seattle, i wasn't sure where to find it. My photoperiod is around 11 hours, and i don't want to start up the diy co2 because i'm supposed to be getting in an order that will allow me to start pressurized. I'm pretty sure I need better light, like this one here http://shop.aquatraders.com/Odyssea-48in-2x54W-T5-HO-Light-Fixture-p/52103.htm but i will try changing some parameters after i get the co2 supplies. I don't understand why i would have a deficiency though if the plants aren't growing very fast and i'm following pps-pro. Seems like i would have excess nutrients. I dont know haha. Right now i'm just waiting for the supplies and then ill go from there probably. Thanks for the help btw


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi flashbang009,

I would cut back the photoperiod to probably no more that 8 hours and probably less, especially without CO2. I have about 2 WPG and run a split photoperiod. I run about 3.0 hours in the morning and 3.5 hours in the evening. That way I can enjoy the aquariums when I am typically around. The aquariums are in the basement so no significant indirect light is a factor. Reducing the photoperiod may help control or diminish the algae issues as well.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

flashbang009 said:


> I don't understand why i would have a deficiency though if the plants aren't growing very fast and i'm following pps-pro. Seems like i would have excess nutrients. I dont know haha. Right now i'm just waiting for the supplies and then ill go from there probably. Thanks for the help btw


I totally agree.

Do NOT(!!!!!) buy Odyssey equipment, especially lighting!!! This is the most crappy burn-out-set-the-house-on-fire brand out there. Look into AhSupply.com lighting. Its slightly more expensive, but its worth every penny. Their bulbs are expensive, so just order the kit from them and get some cheap 6700K bulbs off ebay.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Haha thanks for the advice Zapins, I appreciate it. I won't be going with their light. Instead, i'm looking into overdriving my t-8's. Sounds like a neat idea and a whole lot better for my budget. Any comments??

Also Seattle, i think you'll be happy to hear, i got my co2 supplies in, and have it up and running right now. I don't have a ph controller or solenoid, so i'm planning on monitoring by ph and kh. My kh test kit isn't the best so it should be interesting. I eventually plan on getting a drop checker when i get around to it. Any advice??

Thanks guys.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi flashbang009,

I got my drop checkers from Aquatic Magic. Actually they sell some fine dry goods at reasonable prices. Do not buy live plants from them however, they ship without the necessary paperwork. If the U.S. Customs Dept. catches someone importing plants without the proper paperwork, the importer (you) is the one in trouble with the government. Dry Goods are not a problem however.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmmm, I'm not sure about overdriving T-8 bulbs. I don't know how much usable light you'll get out of the bulbs, but I know you will burn the bulb out faster, meaning you will need to replace the bulbs much more often. Also I think there are overheating issues in the bulb itself, so you might need to be careful of melting plastic end caps. 

The best thing is just to buy your equipment in pieces. One week buy the fixture, the next week buy the bulbs, the next something else... etc... until you have a full set of equipment. This is what I did with my first pressurized CO2 system (regulator, tank, tubing/diffuser, pH controller).

By the way, I have found over many years that both the pH controller and solenoid regulators are useless. I keep my CO2 on 24/7 at 3 bubbles per second so I have come to realize that I actually don't need a solenoid for anything. The pH controller is just one method of making use of the solenoid which I didn't need to begin with. Without these extras a CO2 system is drastically less expensive and it leaves extra money to splurge on lighting. Have a look on ebay as well, there are some nice miro 5 T5HO systems that will work nicely for your tank.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Well, i overdrove my 2 t8 bulbs, and bought another fixture (2 bulbs) and overdrove those too. So now i have approximately 2.8 watts per gallon. My plants are growing slightly faster, after adding pressurized co2, but not as drastic as i thought it would be... I have new algae that i have never seen before, which i will post pics of, my java moss and amazon sword are also deteriorating in quality, which i will post pics of. Any advice about this would be appreciated. thanks.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

No one has addressed the temperature. I have had problems growing plants in very warm tanks. 
I have no idea if this is what is going on. 

Good that you have CO2 and more light. 
Did you change the fertilizer dosing to match the other improvements?


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Zapins said:


> It could be a lot of things. Excess Mg, too little Ca, too little boron, too much boron, salt in the water (sodium) from a water softener, too high temperature... etc.... We need more details.





flashbang009 said:


> Well here's some more info:
> 
> Temp is kept around 80 degrees (+- 1 degree)


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks Zapins, and Diana, thats definitely something ill look more closely at now. I've decided to tear down the tank and start over with non stem plants. I'm tired of dealing with ludwigia. I talked to some one else who is experienced in my area with ludwigia, and they said they have the same problems. 

The new tank is going to be modeled after houseofcards 72g bowfront. Plants will include:

Blyxa Japonica
Cyperus Helferi
Bolbitis
Java Fern
Peacock Moss


----------



## plamski (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi. I have 3 type of moss and tried different levels and rates with PPS-PRO, lights from 1.5 to 3WPG,split period, different light intensity and K rating it seems that if you have more than 1.5WPG you will have algae over moss. I have one Betta bowl with moss on my window without direct sunlight. I never add any supplements or change the water for 2 months. There are very slow grown perfect clear plants. In my 10gal eclipse with 1.5WPG 6500K florescent bulb. Exel and florish x2 a week , iron and micros x2 a week. Moss grows moderate completely algae free.


----------

