# Adding baking soda to DIY C02 brew



## Homer_Simpson

I am just trying to gauge peoples' experiences with this. I came across an interesting article with very useful information(an oldie but a goodie), stating that yeast functions best at a PH of 5 to 5.5 and so it is important to go easy on the baking soda.
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9706/msg00187.html

It does not take much baking soda to change the ideal PH range for yeast to ferment best and optimize c02 and most recipes call for 1 teaspoon baking soda per 2 litres water, 2 cups sugar and 1/2 teaspoon yeast. What are peoples' experiences in using this much baking soda with respect to consistency of c02 produced. Thanks.


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## Left C

That's a good article, HS.

I just started up a planted tank for some dwarf cichlid fry. I had to dust off one of my Hagen Ladder kits. I haven't used it in quite a while. I added ⅛ teaspoon each of baking soda, yeast and protein mix with sugar and distilled water. When it runs out, I'll measure the pH and see what it is. It has been running for a week now with ~ 12 bpm. It got cool last night and I sat the Hagen container in a small bucket of 95° F water with a heater in it. It's running at ~ 25 bpm now! That doubled the rate, but I don't know how long it will last since it's already been running for a week.

I just got through reading an article about various Hagen Ladder DIY yeast/CO2 mixes. It was ⅛ to ¼ tsp of yeast and 1 tsp of baking soda that people found worked well with bread yeast. Beer or wine yeast didn't work well with baking soda. If the water was semi-hard (~ 4 dKH and ~ 6 dGH) or harder, the baking soda wasn't needed. I'm not sure about champagne yeast and baking soda.

Are you adding any protein mix to your DIY CO2?


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## Homer_Simpson

Left C said:


> That's a good article, HS.
> 
> I just started up a planted tank for some dwarf cichlid fry. I had to dust off one of my Hagen Ladder kits. I haven't used it in quite a while. I only added ⅛ teaspoon each of baking soda, yeast and protein mix with sugar and distilled water. When it runs out, I'll measure the pH and see what it is. It has been running for a week now with ~ 12 bpm. It got cool last night and I sat the Hagen contain in a small bucket of 90° F water with a heater in it. It's running at ~ 25 bpm now. That doubled the rate.
> 
> I just got through reading an article about various Hagen Ladder DIY yeast/CO2 mixes. It was ⅛ to ¼ tsp of yeast and 1 tsp of baking soda that people found worked well with bread and champagne yeast. Beer or wine yeast didn't work well with baking soda. If the water was semi-hard (~ 4 dKH and ~ 6 dGH) or harder, the baking soda wasn't needed.
> 
> Are you adding any protein mix to your DIY CO2?
> 
> Left C


Interesting Left C. I used Lavalin EC-1118 champagne yeast. I added 1 teaspoon baking soda but for my next brew I will do as you did: use only 1/8 th teaspoon. I am not using protein mix but will be experimenting with the malt extract for my next brew as the author of that interesting article seemed to have good success with malt extract. I used Rex Grigg's C02 resistant tubing instead of the regular plastic tubing to minimize C02 waste. I also wrapped the bottle with a heating pad set to the lowest setting to try and keep fermentation consistent. Although too early to say and I don't have a c02 drop checker to measure the actual C02 levels, judging by the consistent noise being produced by the filter impeller that I am using to diffuse the c02, C02 production seems more consistent day and night.


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## Left C

I've been trying to edit my post and add more to it. My ClearWire service was down for a while. Here's the rest of it:

I read this a long time ago, but I forgot about it. It's in the article by John LeVasseur entitled "A Treatise on DIY CO2 Systems for Freshwater-Planted Aquaria." The following is quoted from it: 
*"Yeast Tolerance to Acidity*

Yeast exhibits a considerable tolerance to extremes of pH, being able to maintain an active fermentation in a 5% glucose solution in the pH range of 2.4 to 7.4, but ceasing activity at pH 2.0 or pH 8.0. For optimum results, good practice dictates that the pH of the fermenting medium be maintained within the range of about 4.0 to 6. A drop of more than 50% in fermentative activity has been observed at pH 3.5. More gradual declines in yeast activity were encountered at higher pH levels, with measurable effects showing up at pH values over 6.0.

The explanation for the yeast's ability to maintain a relatively constant activity over a 100-fold change in hydrogen ion concentration (pH 4 to 6) is found in the fact that the pH of the cell interior of the yeast remains quite constant at about pH 5.8, regardless of any relatively wide pH variations in the fermenting medium. The enzymes involved in fermentation thus operate in an optimum pH environment within the yeast cell that is largely unaffected by external changes in pH.

Conversely, sodium ions are also toxic to yeast, so once the sodium biphosphate has been broken down by the acids, the free sodium ions tend to kill off more yeast cells. So this method is only a transparent fix to the yeast kill-off. The logical alternative is to find strains of yeast more resistant to high alcohol levels, since alcohol appears to be the true killer. The apparent regulation by buffering with baking powder is probably due to the issue of sodium slowing the reproduction process, thereby slowing the consumption of sugar by limiting the population of living yeast cells. While this extend the life of the mixture, it also reduces the CO2 output over the lifespan of the mixture. This is a result of reduced, or at least controlled, yeast cell population.

Brewers yeast is one step in the right direction. Strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae brewers yeast, commonly referred as Ale Yeast, is a good choice for this. It is more tolerant to higher alcohol levels and should provide a longer lasting mixture; usually by about 4-6 days longer than the bakers yeast strain. It is also seems to be more tolerant of sodium. Using Ale Yeast in your mixture can yield a longer lasting mixture.

Champagne Yeast is tolerant of the highest alcohol levels, and wider temperature ranges. Another side effect is that its metabolism seems to be in hyper-speed, producing nearly twice as much CO2 as other strains. It also ferments well at average room temperatures. This makes it the perfect yeast strain (and the most expensive) for our applications. I have had mixtures with this strain, very carefully prepared aseptically, last strongly for nearly 24 days.

Now for the downside. Costs are very high with these esoteric yeasts. The cost is nearly 3-5 times more expensive as common bakers yeast. Also, these yeasts work better if inoculated into your sugar water when they are alive, which is the form they are purchased in. This makes storing them difficult. The manufacturers makes these available to home vintner's, and are prepared in much larger quantities than we would use. Anything left over last only for a very short period, and is difficult to store and keep viable.

Finally, it should be noted that there is also an inverse relation between the amount of yeast and fermentation time. Thus, a reduction in the amount of yeast will result in longer fermentation times, while an increase in the amount of yeast will shorten them. We'll talk about this more in the section on mixtures.*"*

Left C


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

I don't know if Mike (Momotaro) used baking soda or not when he was trying Anona's recipe in the Hagen DIY thread.

He said: _"I am trying Anona's recipe using champagne yeast.

I will update!

Mike"_

According to the following statement he says that he used Anona's recipe with champagne yeast and sugar. Baking soda wasn't mentioned. I really don't know if champagne yeast works well with baking soda or not. I've always used bread yeast.

Here's Mike's statement:
_"I tried Anona's recipe. I am using Champagne yeast in my Hagen system, and using the suggested amounts of sugar and water.

The CO2 is flowing, and flowing and flowing! What a difference! I actually need to monitor the CO2 output for fear of crashing the pH!

So far, so good!

Mike"_

Hopefully Mike will chime in and let us know if he used baking soda or not with champagne yeast.

Rex uses this Red Star Premier Cuvée yeast: http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/wineyeast/p_cuvee.html

Someone mentioned using Alcotec 48-Hour Turbo Yeast on the AGA forum. It's supposed to be powerful. Their Superstart Distillers Yeast sounds interesting too. Here they are and they come with their own nutrients: http://www.beer-wine.com/category_page.asp?categoryID=90&sectionID=2

EC-1118 champagne yeast is available to me from a place in Belmont, NC. It's about 2 hours away. I'll probably order some.

Left C


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## Left C

Hi HS

I just emailed beer-wine.com with some questions about their Super Yeasts. I hope they reply.

You should get drop checkers. I use them in my pressurized CO2 and DIY CO2 aquariums. These are one of the most handy devices for aquariums that I've ever used.

Left C


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## Homer_Simpson

Left C said:


> Hi HS
> 
> I just emailed beer-wine.com with some questions about their Super Yeasts. I hope they reply.
> 
> You should get drop checkers. I use them in my pressurized CO2 and DIY CO2 aquariums. These are one of the most handy devices for aquariums that I've ever used.
> 
> Left C


Thanks for the excellent information. Keep us updated. Yeah, I know a c02 drop checker is a must. Cash is a problem right now. I will order one when the finances are a little better.

On a related note, we might be trying to re-invent the wheel. I came across this. It seems that even Tom Barr has tested Champagne yeast vs Baker's yeast and notes no big difference.

*"Champange Yeast-not
by Tom Barr <tcbiii/pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999

I have to agree with Augie's statement on this stuff. I've played with
it in varying combinations. Result: no difference except it's more $
than baker's yeast. I had hope but it didn't deliver................
Tom Barr AGA"*

Source: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/co2-ferm.html

Of course things are much different now(since that statement/finding) in the brewing industry with respect to yeasts and yeast nutrients, so revisiting this whole issue and experimenting may not be such a bad idea.

Intead of the malt extract, I may test with this if I can find a local supplier as shipping charges on E-Bay products are always a killer.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/YEAST-NUTRIENT-N...ryZ38172QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.ca/FERMAX-Yeast-Nut...ryZ38172QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

I've been using pressurized CO2 for a couple of years now. This is my first yeast/sugar CO2 set up since then.

The biggest difference is that warm bath that I have the Hagen container in. It made a huge difference in my bubble rate.

Thanks for the links.

Did you notice this article? It was a little past Tom Barr's comment that you quoted:

*"Yeast CO2 Reactors
by William Cwirla <wcwirla/earthlink.net> 
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999*
I've been using champagne yeast for the last four months in three tanks (4 reactors). I have tried two types. Red Star Pasteur Champagne, and Lalvin EC-1118 wine yeast using the following recipe:

1/2 teaspoon yeast dissolved in a small amount of warm water
1cup table sugar
approx. 60 oz of water

The Red Star clearly outperforms the Lalvin in this application. The solutions remain active for about 3-4 weeks, only slightly better than my experience with ordinary baker's yeast (2-3 weeks). The main difference between champagne yeast and baker's yeast seems to be that champagne yeast
comes to full activity much more slowly. _Baker's yeast is selected to give a fast burst of activity, while wine yeast is in it for the long haul._ This is a slight advantage in our application, though I don't think it's worth the additional cost and trouble. When I run out of champagne yeast, I plan to go back to my trusty bottle of good old Red Star baker's yeast. My best protocol to date remains: 1 tsp baker's yeast, 1/2 cup sugar, 60 oz water. Change every two weeks.

William Cwirla
Hacienda Heights*"*

Cwirla's following statement made be wonder if mixing bread yeast and champagne yeast might help: "Baker's yeast is selected to give a fast burst of activity, while wine yeast is in it for the long haul."

Left C

PS: I thought this was funny for some reason. It's from the same link.
*"Exploding DIY CO2 containers
by Travis & Vivian Morris <tdmorris/htcomp.net> 
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001* 
To: erik/thekrib.com 
If nobody has considered it yet, There is a simple solution to the exploding CO2 bottle problem. Somewhere in the CO2 line place a "T" connection going to a balloon. The excess expanding gas will expand the balloon instead of exploding the bottle. If there is an extreme amount of gas production the balloon should pop before the bottle.
Travis Morris*"*


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## Homer_Simpson

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Left C said:


> Thanks for the links.
> 
> Did you notice this article? It was a little past Tom Barr's comment that you quoted:
> 
> *"Yeast CO2 Reactors
> by William Cwirla <wcwirla/earthlink.net>
> Date: Sun, 30 May 1999*
> I've been using champagne yeast for the last four months in three tanks (4 reactors). I have tried two types. Red Star Pasteur Champagne, and Lalvin EC-1118 wine yeast using the following recipe:
> 
> 1/2 teaspoon yeast dissolved in a small amount of warm water
> 1cup table sugar
> approx. 60 oz of water
> 
> The Red Star clearly outperforms the Lalvin in this application. The solutions remain active for about 3-4 weeks, only slightly better than my experience with ordinary baker's yeast (2-3 weeks). The main difference between champagne yeast and baker's yeast seems to be that champagne yeast
> comes to full activity much more slowly. _Baker's yeast is selected to give a fast burst of activity, while wine yeast is in it for the long haul._ This is a slight advantage in our application, though I don't think it's worth the additional cost and trouble. When I run out of champagne yeast, I plan to go back to my trusty bottle of good old Red Star baker's yeast. My best protocol to date remains: 1 tsp baker's yeast, 1/2 cup sugar, 60 oz water. Change every two weeks.
> 
> William Cwirla
> Hacienda Heights*"*


Yeah I did, but had to take my chances with the Lavlin as this is all that was available locally. The only way I can get my hands on some Red Star Pasteur Champagne is if I order it on-line and the shipping cost(s) don't make it worthwhile. I am hoping that using the malt extract or locally available yeast nutrient may help the Lavlin perform as well or better than the Red Star Pasteur yeast.



Left C said:


> Cwirla's following statement made be wonder if mixing bread yeast and champagne yeast might help: "Baker's yeast is selected to give a fast burst of activity, while wine yeast is in it for the long haul."
> Left C


That sounds like a good idea and I am almost tempted to try it. I cannot imagine that it could cause any harm and both should be able to co-exist in the same brew since both are the same species of yeast, saccharomyces ceravisiae, with the only difference being the characteristics between the two. If it works, it also has the added benefit of compensating for the higher cost of champagne yeast since much less would be used.



Left C said:


> PS: I thought this was funny for some reason. It's from the same link.
> *"Exploding DIY CO2 containers
> by Travis & Vivian Morris <tdmorris/htcomp.net>
> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001*
> To: erik/thekrib.com
> If nobody has considered it yet, There is a simple solution to the exploding CO2 bottle problem. Somewhere in the CO2 line place a "T" connection going to a balloon. The excess expanding gas will expand the balloon instead of exploding the bottle. If there is an extreme amount of gas production the balloon should pop before the bottle.
> Travis Morris*"*


That is funny. But if you do this and pressure builds and the baloon bursts, wouldn't there be back pressure after this that would cause water from the aquarium to get sucked back into your brew bottle and then cause some of the brew to flow back into your aquarium? And would a check valve be enough to prevent this? If this were to happen, it could turn real ugly especially if you were not home to hear the baloon burst and stop any aftermath.

Here is something intersting: A "Yeast Energizer" powder to restart stuck fermentation or initiate a new one. I guess if you were trying to get the most mileage of the brew you use, it may hold promise. Also claims to have more complete nutrients than yeast nutrient.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/YEAST-ENERGIZER-...ryZ38172QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Yeast-Energizer-...ryZ38172QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem


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## Squawkbert

My (now) numerous postings on this subject have been based on the sensitivity to sodium & tolerance to pH changes (that I probably read from the same sources). These articles apply to bread yeast - Champagne yeast is a totally different thing as it is a "bottom fermenter" while bread yeast is a top fermenter.

In addition to Champagne yeast's higher alcohol tolerance, the use of a bottom fermenter begs the question about whether you can control output by controlling the population. I have suggested (but not tested) the idea that, for bread yeast, top surface area can be used to strike whatever balance between CO2 output rate and longevity of the brew the aquarist desires. (Idea - yeast multiplies until a stable population covers the top of the mixture, the size of the population is proportional to CO2 putput rate and inversely proportional to mixture longevity).

I'm not sure what controls population size in a mixture w/ champagne yeast... I guess it may be the same thing, where bottom surface area controls it.


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## Homer_Simpson

Squawkbert said:


> My (now) numerous postings on this subject have been based on the sensitivity to sodium & tolerance to pH changes (that I probably read from the same sources). These articles apply to bread yeast - Champagne yeast is a totally different thing as it is a "bottom fermenter" while bread yeast is a top fermenter.
> 
> In addition to Champagne yeast's higher alcohol tolerance, the use of a bottom fermenter begs the question about whether you can control output by controlling the population. I have suggested (but not tested) the idea that, for bread yeast, top surface area can be used to strike whatever balance between CO2 output rate and longevity of the brew the aquarist desires. (Idea - yeast multiplies until a stable population covers the top of the mixture, the size of the population is proportional to CO2 putput rate and inversely proportional to mixture longevity).
> 
> I'm not sure what controls population size in a mixture w/ champagne yeast... I guess it may be the same thing, where bottom surface area controls it.


Population size besides being governed by bottom/top surface area would also be governed by yeast survival rate and die off. So in theory, if you feed the yeast well(i.e., through yeast nutrient), it should help maintain a more stable population of yeast by minimizing die off and prolonging yeast life expectancy. Which translates to a higher, healthy population of yeast over a long period of time, and theoretically more consistent C02 production over a longer period of time. I guess the best way to test a theory is to experiment. Okay, I am off to pick up some yeast nutrient and for my next brew I am going to test this with LeftC's idea of 1/2 and 1/2(1/4 tsp each of baker's and champagne yeast, 2 cups sugar, pinch/dash of yeast nutrient and 1/8 tsp baking soda).

I know some people have tested with and reported success feeding the yeast with protein powder/soya powder. However, given that yeast nutrient is cheaper and especially formulated with the right ingredients to feed yeast, it makes little sense to use protein powder/soya powder.

Later.


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## Squawkbert

Actually, you should start w/ enough sugar to produce a lethal concentration of alcohol, but no more. 

Then the yeast will start in the sealed system w/ several generations worth of food and it will eat and divide at Malthusian rates for a short while. The population then stabilizes (die off rate = fission rate) as a function of surface area and sugar is consumed at a constant rate for a while. Then sugar starts to run out as ethanol concentration gets critical and CO2 production drops off.

If you're in the mood to experiment, I'd try Champagne yeast with & without baking soda, then try both types of yeast (independently) w/ different shaped containers (all other things being equal, of course) - to see if surface area plays a part in production rates. It will be important to use the same volume of water & sugar in these experiments.


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## Homer_Simpson

Squawkbert said:


> Actually, you should start w/ enough sugar to produce a lethal concentration of alcohol, but no more.
> 
> Then the yeast will start in the sealed system w/ several generations worth of food and it will eat and divide at Malthusian rates for a short while. The population then stabilizes (die off rate = fission rate) as a function of surface area and sugar is consumed at a constant rate for a while. Then sugar starts to run out as ethanol concentration gets critical and CO2 production drops off.
> 
> If you're in the mood to experiment, I'd try Champagne yeast with & without baking soda, then try both types of yeast (independently) w/ different shaped containers (all other things being equal, of course) - to see if surface area plays a part in production rates. It will be important to use the same volume of water & sugar in these experiments.


Excellent suggestions, thanks. Just with baker's yeast alone and the traditional brew recipe, I did find that container shape does seem to effect c02 output. In the past, I found that I had more consistent bubble flow using juice bottles like this one than the rounder soda type bottles.









This was with all things being equal. At first, I thought the difference may have been due to leaks, but after thoroughly checking for leaks and finding none, that was ruled out.


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## will5

Left C said:


> That's a good article, HS.
> 
> I just started up a planted tank for some dwarf cichlid fry. I had to dust off one of my Hagen Ladder kits. I haven't used it in quite a while. I added ⅛ teaspoon each of baking soda, yeast and protein mix with sugar and distilled water. When it runs out, I'll measure the pH and see what it is. It has been running for a week now with ~ 12 bpm. It got cool last night and I sat the Hagen container in a small bucket of 95° F water with a heater in it. It's running at ~ 25 bpm now! That doubled the rate, but I don't know how long it will last since it's already been running for a week.
> 
> I just got through reading an article about various Hagen Ladder DIY yeast/CO2 mixes. It was ⅛ to ¼ tsp of yeast and 1 tsp of baking soda that people found worked well with bread yeast. Beer or wine yeast didn't work well with baking soda. If the water was semi-hard (~ 4 dKH and ~ 6 dGH) or harder, the baking soda wasn't needed. I'm not sure about champagne yeast and baking soda.
> 
> Are you adding any protein mix to your DIY CO2?


Ok so my KH is 6 and my ph is 7.8- 8.0 so i am going to try me bakers yeast with out my 1/4tps of baking soda
and see what happens.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

This is the response that I got from http://www.beer-wine.com/category_page.asp?categoryID=90&sectionID=2
"the 1 lbs distillers yeast is a bulk yeast. The turbo 24 and 48 are a premix for 5-6 gallon quantities inclusive nutrients etc needed."

The title of the thread at AGA is: What's use of Baking Soda in DIY CO2 Yeast Mix ? http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/viewtopic.php?t=319.
It mentions the Alcotec 48-Hour Turbo Yeast. Here's the quote from that thread:


Prof Myers said:


> Try Alcotes 48 Pure Turbo Super Yeast ! Just make sure your system can handle the pressure !!! :lol: HTH. Prof M


Hi HS,

I'm not sure about your ebay links. Three of them might not help, IMO. These three links to the yeast nutrients and yeast energizer products contained more yeast and only a few nutrients. The Dave Gauthier thread says that yeast requires amino acids, lipids and trace elements for proper metabolic action.

One link said, "Add to must (wine) 24 hours before adding yeast to provide the yeast with a healthy environment with much needed vitamins and nutrients."

I wonder about the 24 hour part?

Here's a local winery that I called. They said that I could come by and they would give me some wine or champagne yeast. I'll ask them if I can have some yeast nutrient too. It'll be next week before I can get over there, though. http://grovewinery.com/

Check out these sites:
http://whitelabs.com/
http://www.brewsource.com/ProdNav/Ing_652.asp

Happy brewing or CO2 production! 

Left C


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



will5 said:


> OK so my KH is 6 and my pH is 7.8- 8.0 so i am going to try me bakers yeast with out my 1/4tps of baking soda
> and see what happens.


Hi Will

I didn't mention this, but when I make my DIY CO2 yeast/sugar/baking soda mix; I use distilled water. I've never tried tap water.

Is dechlor needed if you use tap water that has chlorine in it for the yeast mixture? My water quality report says that the Chlorine can range from 0.5 to 2.8 ppm. Chloramine isn't used in my city water, yet.

Left C


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## Homer_Simpson

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Left C said:


> Hi Will
> 
> ...I didn't mention this, but when I make my DIY CO2 yeast/sugar/baking soda mix; I use distilled water...


You just got me thinking. Although I have used chlorinated tap water with a PH of 6.5 without any problems, it doesn't mean that the yeast like it more. With a PH of 6.5, a teaspoon of baking soda could substantially raise the PH of 2 litres of water. I will test PH after adding a teaspoon to 2 litres of water to see what I end up with. My tap water has a lot of cr*p in it besides chrlorine/chlorimine, which I don't know if helps or hurts the the yeast(we are talking about at least 7 additives to control water odour and taste, a blue green algae by-product, and even a known carcinogenic) during its life expectancy. The following gives you an idea of my tap water make-up:
http://winnipeg.ca/waterandwaste/water/testResults/Winnipeg.stm

Distilled water has a much lower PH, so adding a teaspoon of baking soda to it may not cause the PH to shoot up too much. If attempting to maintain a more ideal PH range for yeast to ferment in, distilled water with baking soda may be better. Again I need to compare PH of the distilled vs tap water with baking soda. Also, the distilled water is devoid of a lot of a lot of things found in tap water, keeping in mind that tap water does have trace minerals that may benefit the yeast, but I guess adding yeast nutrient may to the distilled water brew may help compensate somewhat for the lack of trace minerals in distilled water. Again, it seems the only way to compare the difference is to test a brew with distilled water vs tap water to see if there is any difference.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

I found Servomyces Yeast Nutrient at WhiteLabs.com, but it's pricey: https://ssl.hostingplatform.com/whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_servomyces.html

I found out about chlorine and yeast. Chlorine will kill yeast according to Tara Nyberg. They like ammonia though: http://users.forthnet.gr/pat/ekfrasis/Nyberg_yeast.pdf

That pdf or PowerPoint presentation is where I found out about using the protein mix. She mentions adding ammonium sulfate or molasses or both. This is probably one of the yeast nutrients.

If my present batch runs out before I can get over to the winery; I'm going to try my same recipe again, but I'm going to add some of Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen to see if it helps. F. Nitrogen has some ammonium in it. I used a GNC protein mix called Protein 95 and Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast in my first mix.

Here's the APC thread about Nyberg's CO2: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-planted-aquariums/3688-nyberg-co2-method.html

Check out Piscesgirl's response from that thread:


Piscesgirl said:


> I use this method ever since I first read it in TAG (Journal of the AGA), and I can't say enough how great it is. The amount of CO2 production is so much higher.
> 
> By the way, Ammonium Sulfate is also known as Yeast Nutrient. I also find that a bit of room-temp juice (NOT OJ which seems to create bad bacteria), but like Ocean Spray Cranberry juice, makes the end result smell so much better
> 
> I've found a grocery store brand of protein powder that works fine, called Adkins Advantage, $8 for a big container. I liked Spiruteen the best, but it was a bit expensive to use.


Wow, It seems like this thread is 'going nine ways to Sunday.' It started as a simple question about baking soda.

Left C


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## Homer_Simpson

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Left C said:


> I found Servomyces Yeast Nutrient at WhiteLabs.com, but it's pricey: https://ssl.hostingplatform.com/whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_servomyces.html
> 
> I found out about chlorine and yeast. Chlorine will kill yeast according to Tara Nyberg. They like ammonia though: http://users.forthnet.gr/pat/ekfrasis/Nyberg_yeast.pdf
> 
> That pdf or PowerPoint presentation is where I found out about using the protein mix. She mentions adding ammonium sulfate or molasses or both. This is probably one of the yeast nutrients.
> 
> If my present batch runs out before I can get over to the winery; I'm going to try my same recipe again, but I'm going to add some of Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen to see if it helps. F. Nitrogen has some ammonium in it. I used a GNC protein mix called Protein 95 and Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast in my first mix.
> 
> Here's the APC thread about Nyberg's CO2: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-planted-aquariums/3688-nyberg-co2-method.html
> 
> Check out Piscesgirl's response from that thread:
> 
> Wow, It seems like this thread is 'going nine ways to Sunday.' It started as a simple question about baking soda.
> 
> Left C


Thanks for posting all that excellent information LeftC and I don't see any problems with the thread 
"going nine ways to Sunday" This info enhances the thread and I don't think you can take the effects of using baking soda in isolation to the rest of the ingredients.

One thing and this is just my own personal observation. As far as Chlorine being harmful to yeast, I just used plain old chlorinated tap water in my last batch. 4 days later, I can still hear the flow off bubbles going, and we are talking about almost a bubble per 1-2 seconds. In the past the chlorinated water brews have usually run for about 3-4 weeks. However, the bubbles/second rate has significantly dropped off, which I believe(I have not checked with a c02 drop checker to confirm) would translate to more inconsistent C02 output, and reduced c02 tank levels, which some attribute to contributing to algae growth.

My goal was to keep the C02 consistent with DIY to avoid problems. The way I see it, there are only three possible ways to do this. (1) Enhance the DIY brew to increase consistent c02 output over the life of the mix, (2) Invest in pressurized C02(pressurized items and setup is not affordable for me right now) or (3) as per Tom Barr's excellent recommendation, change the brew weekly, in which case the traditional recipe would suffice and enhancements would not be needed, although they couldn't hurt. This may be the most work but would likely ensure the most consistent c02 output and may be cheaper than the brew enhancement measures.


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## Squawkbert

I have not noticed a difference between DI water and trreated tapwater. Normally, one would worry about osmotic pressure etc. when considering the use of DI water, but when you're dumping all that sugar in along w/ whatever other stuff is in your yeast mix, those concerns are pretty well moot.

One correction - there is no appreciable buffering capacity in DI water, hence its pH is ~meaningless. The first hint of anything you add that ionizes, even a little bit, will overwhelm the contribution of pure water to the system's pH. Worrying about the pH of distilled water is sort of like trying to measure sound in a vacuum.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Homer_Simpson said:


> Thanks for posting all that excellent information Left C and I don't see any problems with the thread "going nine ways to Sunday" This info enhances the thread and I don't think you can take the effects of using baking soda in isolation to the rest of the ingredients.


I agree. It's been fun "digging" for some info. "Digging" through some of the conflicting info has been interesting too.



Homer_Simpson said:


> One thing and this is just my own personal observation. As far as Chlorine being harmful to yeast, I just used plain old chlorinated tap water in my last batch. 4 days later, I can still hear the flow off bubbles going, and we are talking about almost a bubble per 1-2 seconds. In the past the chlorinated water brews have usually run for about 3-4 weeks. However, the bubbles/second rate has significantly dropped off, which I believe(I have not checked with a CO2 drop checker to confirm) would translate to more inconsistent CO2 output, and reduced CO2 tank levels, which some attribute to contributing to algae growth.


I can think of some reasons why this is true:
- Chlorine out gases from water rather easily and quickly. 
- Even if some of the yeast is killed by the chlorine, they multiply very quickly in conditions to their liking.
- Free Chlorine is the "killer", but chloride is not. Your free Chlorine level is maintained around 0.3 to 0.4 ppm.
- Chloramine isn't added to your water source.



Homer_Simpson said:


> My goal was to keep the CO2 consistent with DIY to avoid problems. The way I see it, there are only three possible ways to do this. (1) Enhance the DIY brew to increase consistent CO2 output over the life of the mix, (2) Invest in pressurized CO2(pressurized items and setup is not affordable for me right now) or (3) as per Tom Barr's excellent recommendation, change the brew weekly, in which case the traditional recipe would suffice and enhancements would not be needed, although they couldn't hurt. This may be the most work but would likely ensure the most consistent CO2 output and may be cheaper than the brew enhancement measures.


Heck, HS.

I have a spare regulator and all the other CO2 equipment that I need for a pressurized system except for a filled CO2 cylinder. I can't get one for over a month or two because DrsFosterSmith.com has a red tag sale that's up to 35% off and BigAlsOnline.com has some items on sale too. ThatFishPlace.com sent me a promo code for 20% off of my entire order. TFP.com price matches and I'm planning on stocking up on some things while I can get them rather cheap.

Here's another heck, HS.

I swore off DIY CO2 when I went pressurized and here I am doing it again.:doh:

Left C


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## Homer_Simpson

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Left C said:


> I agree. It's been fun "digging" for some info. "Digging" through some of the conflicting info has been interesting too.
> 
> I can think of some reasons why this is true:
> - Chlorine out gases from water rather easily and quickly.
> - Even if some of the yeast is killed by the chlorine, they multiply very quickly in conditions to their liking.
> - Free Chlorine is the "killer", but chloride is not. Your free Chlorine level is maintained around 0.3 to 0.4 ppm.
> - Chloramine isn't added to your water source.
> 
> Heck, HS.
> 
> I have a spare regulator and all the other CO2 equipment that I need for a pressurized system except for a filled CO2 cylinder. I can't get one for over a month or two because DrsFosterSmith.com has a red tag sale that's up to 35% off and BigAlsOnline.com has some items on sale too. ThatFishPlace.com sent me a promo code for 20% off of my entire order. TFP.com price matches and I'm planning on stocking up on some things while I can get them rather cheap.
> 
> Here's another heck, HS.
> 
> I swore off DIY CO2 when I went pressurized and here I am doing it again.:doh:
> 
> Left C


Da*n you...:sad: or should I say lucky you.

It seems where I am, I have to contend with a limited selection of aquarium plants, inability to get some much needed equipment and test kits. Hell, some of the test kits I had to order because they were not locally available ended up costing me double than the actual cost because of the shipping costs alone. The shipping charge on the C02 drop checker that I had to order is almost as much as what the C02 drop checker costs  And some of the other equipment that I had to order, I get hit with customs and duty charges to boot. Add to this, many of the inexperienced local fish store staff that you deal with that give you bad advise because most of them don't know any better or have little or no experience growing aquarium plants.

These little nuisances really make it difficult to enjoy something that is supposed to be fun. Lol, maybe I should just take up knitting or needlepoint :wink:


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## Left C

I usually order several item froms the same place. That way shipping isn't so bad. I've never bought anything off of ebay or aquabid, though. Customs and duty charges ....


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## will5

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Left C said:


> Hi Will
> 
> I didn't mention this, but when I make my DIY CO2 yeast/sugar/baking soda mix; I use distilled water. I've never tried tap water.
> 
> Is dechlor needed if you use tap water that has chlorine in it for the yeast mixture? My water quality report says that the Chlorine can range from 0.5 to 2.8 ppm. Chloramine isn't used in my city water, yet.
> 
> Left C


Some times my tap water smells like it's coming from a swimming pool which has lots of cloring in it.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



will5 said:


> Some times my tap water smells like it's coming from a swimming pool which has lots of chlorine in it.


I've never noticed my tap water to have a noticeable smell.

I just checked my chlorine level and it was 0.5 ppm. That isn't very much. The minimum allowable level in my city is 0.2 ppm.


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## will5

OK so not adding the baking soda really helped in how much Co2 is being produced by my setup. My drop checker is bright yellow right now with a 4dKH solution in it. As for how long this will last i will have to see. I will be removing the one 1 liter bottle because the fish did seem a little stressed IE labored breathing, but no gasping at the surface. 

I made the changes yesterday afternoon on my ten gallon's diy Co2 system.


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## Left C

Maybe you could bubble a little air in the tank when the lights go off.


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## will5

For right now i just took of the single 1 liter leaving 2 x 2 liters on it. So we'll see how it goes. If anything else i could always hook the power head/diffuser up to a timer to come on an hour or two before the lights.

It's been my experience that by using an air stone at night makes it almost impossible to get the Co2 levels back up to where they should be.

I so very sorry to *Homer_Simpson* for thread jacking, but i just love all of this great info on diy Co2. :focus:


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## Homer_Simpson

will5 said:


> ...I so very sorry to *Homer_Simpson* for thread jacking, but i just love all of this great info on diy Co2. :focus:


No apologies needed. The more people who jump in and share their experiences the better. Thanks for the input. I don't have a drop checker, so I am glad you were able to confirm more concentrated c02 levels in the tank without adding baking soda to the brew if I read what you posted correctly.


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## will5

Homer_Simpson said:


> No apologies needed. The more people who jump in and share their experiences the better. Thanks for the input. I don't have a drop checker, so I am glad you were able to confirm more concentrated c02 levels in the tank without adding baking soda to the brew if I read what you posted correctly.


You did read it correctly.


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## Left C

What is the name of your yeast that you are using?


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## will5

Left C said:


> What is the name of your yeast that you are using?


I am using

Fleischmann's RapidRise 
Highly Active yeast

I use two round 1/4tsp of yeast and 3 cups of sugar to every two liter. I have two 2 liters on the tank now and the drop checker is still yellow but the fish are fine now that i have removed the 1 liter.


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## Left C

will5 said:


> I am using
> 
> Fleischmann's
> 
> 
> Maverick said:
> 
> 
> 
> I use two round 1/4tsp of yeast and 3 cups of sugar to every two liter. I have two 2 liters on the tank now and the drop checker is still yellow but the fish are fine now that i have removed the 1 liter.
> 
> 
> 
> Many folks don't recommend using RapidRise Highly Active yeast.
> 
> It's starts out strong, but it doesn't last as long as the regular active yeast.
Click to expand...


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## will5

Left C said:


> will5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am using
> 
> Fleischmann's Many folks don't recommend using RapidRise Highly Active yeast.
> 
> It's starts out strong, but it doesn't last as long as the regular active yeast.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah i have read that, but both it and the regular dry yeat last about the same time for me. In fact i get a much faster start up with rapidrise yeast than with any other. I will give the normal a try as it's time for me to go buy some more.
> 
> I'll see how it goes.
Click to expand...


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## Left C

You could try mixing the two also.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

I'm trying a new Hagen recipe.

This is my last mix for the Hagen kit:
table sugar to line
⅛ tsp Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast
⅛ tsp baking soda
⅛ tsp Soy Protein Mix
¼ tsp Flourish Nitrogen (for ammonium)
water to line

This is my new mix for the Hagen kit:
table sugar to line
¼ tsp Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast
1 tsp baking soda
¼ tsp Soy Protein Mix
5 mL Flourish Nitrogen (for ammonium)
water to line



Left C said:


> ...I sat the Hagen container in a small bucket of 95° F water with a heater in it. It's running at ~ 25 bpm now...
> 
> I just got through reading an article about various Hagen Ladder DIY yeast/CO2 mixes. It was ⅛ to ¼ tsp of yeast and 1 tsp of baking soda that people found worked well with bread yeast...


I increased the yeast and baking soda because of this statement. I increased the Protein Mix because all of it was gone when I poured out the last batch. ¼ tsp and 5 mL Flourish Nitrogen are the same amount basically. I'll see how long it goes.

Left C


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

I got 6 good days of CO2 production using this recipe with the Hagen kit:

table sugar to line
¼ tsp Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast
1 tsp baking soda
¼ tsp Soy Protein Mix
5 mL Flourish Nitrogen (for ammonium)
water to line

I measured the pH before I dumped it out. It was 4.7. I increased the baking soda from 1 tsp to 1½ in an effort to keep the pH near 5 to 5.5 per David Gauthier's article . Everything else in the mix is the same.

It's producing 30 bpm right now using 1½ tsp of baking soda.


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## Left C

In your 2 liter mixes, do you use ¼ or ½ tsp of yeast in your setups? I'm using ¼ tsp and I'm getting around 60 bpm on my Hagen ladder. It's going through a separator somewhat like the one mentioned in the John LeVasseur article pic.


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## Homer_Simpson

Left C said:


> In your 2 liter mixes, do you use ¼ or ½ tsp of yeast in your setups? I'm using ¼ tsp and I'm getting around 60 bpm on my Hagen ladder. It's going through a separator somewhat like the one mentioned in the John LeVasseur article pic.


I am using 1/2 tsp yeast in my 2 litre set up. I am still waiting arrival of the second drop checker(1st went into my 40 gallon on a priority basis), so cannot say what the c02 tank levels are. Difficult to gauge BPM as I am using the Elite Mini underwater filter to chop up the bubbles and diffuse the c02. If I had to guess, I would say at least 1 bubble per second with a sustained consistent bubble rate of 1 bubble/second for 6 days.

My Recipe:
1/2 teaspoon baker's yeast(I ran out of the champagne yeast)
1/2 teaspoon yeast nutrient
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 teaspoon soy protein powder

I find the mixture foams quite a bit so I have to keep water level a little below 3/4 to prevent the foam from reaching the top.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*

My drop checker was yellow this morning and the two fish in the tank were near the HOB filter outflow at the surface where there is a little less CO2. I added an ASE fine bubble airstone and I'm going to run it 24/7. I'm getting over 80 bpm with my setup. It's too much for a 10g. This is what I'm using in the 2 liter:
1¾ cups of sugar
¼ tsp Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast
½ tsp Baking Soda
2 tsp Protein Powder
5 mL of Flourish Nitrogen


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## Homer_Simpson

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Left C said:


> My drop checker was yellow this morning and the two fish in the tank were near the HOB filter outflow at the surface where there is a little less CO2. I added an ASE fine bubble airstone and I'm going to run it 24/7. I'm getting over 80 bpm with my setup. It's too much for a 10g. This is what I'm using in the 2 liter:
> 1¾ cups of sugar
> ¼ tsp Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast
> ½ tsp Baking Soda
> 2 tsp Protein Powder
> 5 mL of Flourish Nitrogen


Lol,  thanks for sharing that. Thank God I am running a Aquaclear 200 HOB filter. It may be considered too much for a 10 gallon, but considering that my tank is overstocked and it creates significant surface agitation, it probably saved my fish from c02 poisoning. I was running an airstone at night only, just to be safe and stopped. Given your experience, I started doing that again. I am still awaiting delivery of the drop checker so I don't know what my c02 levels are, but considering plant growth took off like crazy a week after the c02 injection, my guess is that the plants are probably getting sufficient c02.


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## Left C

*Re: Adding baking soda to DIY CO2 brew*



Homer_Simpson said:


> ...Thank God I am running a Aquaclear 200 HOB filter. It may be considered too much for a 10 gallon...


I'm using an AquaClear 70 (old 300) on my other 10g that has pressurized CO2 and the elbow that I mentioned for CO2 diffusion. I used my Dremel Tool to grind the stop slot on the grey piece of plastic that one end of the intake U tube fits on. I can run it at reduced flow this way, but if I need to crank it up...the power is there by simply swinging the U tube to the left.

The added media volume makes filter cleaning very less often too.


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