# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Setting up a sump for a larger tank??



## imported_Kris (Feb 4, 2003)

I'm looking into starting a 90-ish gallon (48"x30"x18" tall) plant tank, and I think it's a little too large for the typical canister filter setup.

How do I construct an overflow and a sump that won't waste the co2 injection? I'd also like to have the ability to keep floating plants, but I really don't see how that's possible as overflows skim right off the water's surface.

I'm thinking about having a large sump with a section for cuttings that can be reverse lit to stabilize PH. Can I get some help?


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## imported_Kris (Feb 4, 2003)

I'm looking into starting a 90-ish gallon (48"x30"x18" tall) plant tank, and I think it's a little too large for the typical canister filter setup.

How do I construct an overflow and a sump that won't waste the co2 injection? I'd also like to have the ability to keep floating plants, but I really don't see how that's possible as overflows skim right off the water's surface.

I'm thinking about having a large sump with a section for cuttings that can be reverse lit to stabilize PH. Can I get some help?


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## MarkyMark (May 20, 2004)

Hi Kris

That's a great size for a plant tank - I've always wanted a tank 30" front to back. The 18" height will give you great light penetration too. If I had a tank that size I'd try and use suspended pendant lighting (metal halide or mercury vapour) in order to keep the view of that four foot by two foot six surface area - it's the only way to get the best view of the floating plants you want, and my favourite view of stands of stem plants.

In a tank with that volume I presume you'll be using a pressurised system for CO2 injection. As your filter (and therefore your overflow) will be working all the time, any slight loss of CO2 will be constant, and will be compensated for by the amount of CO2 you need to inject to maintain your desired pH. So you might use a very slightly greater amount of CO2 (ie, your canister will need refilling slightly more often) but the loss of CO2 from the overflow will not make reaching your desired pH/CO2 levels impossible - in fact you probably won't even notice it. 

The benefits of using an overflow to a sump - having no filter in the tank, being able to put any pH probes/thermostats/CO2 diffusers, etc out of sight in the sump, the ease with which you can increase/decrease the amount of filtration at any time, and the crystal clear surface water you will have from the use of an overflow far outweigh any small loss of CO2 (in my view). However, if you are really concerned about it have a search on the internet for the phrase durso standpipe - you'll get results on lots of reef aquarium forums, where the main benefit of the standpipe is to reduce the amount of noise made by an overflow, but it also gets rid of the large, thin layer of water falling inside the overflow, and would reduce CO2 loss to nearly nothing. You could also ensure that the water entering the sump enters below the water level in the sump to avoid any splashing. In the sump design, try to avoid tall 'waterfalls' - or simply use a coverglass over the whole sump.

Overflows are usually built with a 'comb' a few inches high at the top of them, and this will prevent your precious floating plants (and small fish) from dissappearing from your tank.

The idea of having your cuttings/grow outs reverse lit is one that I have wanted to try for over a decade (since reading "dynamic aquaria - creating living ecosystems") but never got round to doing. 

Do lots of research before you order your tank and overflow, or get your existing tank drilled. You could, for example, have an additional holle drilled in the overflow section for the return pipe to be plumbed through, and an additional one (with a standpipe that reaches higher than the tank's highest water level) to route any electric cords through for any in-tank equipment (eg substrate heater, additional pwerhead etc.). This can result in a really clean looking setup with no wires or pipes coming over the edge of the tank at all. It always amazes me in the (amazing) photos of the tank rooms at Aqua Design Amano that they all have vrious water and CO2 pipes hanging over the edge of the aquarium. A good resource to start looking for info about overflows/sumps is the discussion board at reefcentral.com - especially the DIY one. Another couple who have been running planted tanks with trickle filters for many years, and have done experiments on CO2 loss (minimal) are George and Karla Booth - a search on their names should get you to some interesting sites. Personally, I am not a fan of trickle filters for planted aquaria - mostly because I think on a heavily planted tank of that size, with a decent sized sump, and small fish (teras, dwarf cichlids, ottociclus etc.) you could probably get by with no (biological) filter at all, though I am a huge fan of the advantages having a separate sump, as outlined above, and also the fact that you are increasing the gallonage of your system. You will probably want to have some kind of biological system for peace of mind, but with a sump system that's really easy to integrate. Of course, if you plan to keep bigger fish (discus, arrowana) you might well want more biological filtration.

As you can probably tell, I am very excited (and jealous) of the outline of the project you are suggesting, as I'm sure many on this site will be. Let me know if you want to discuss any of this more. And have fun with your new system - don't rush it! Plan, research, replan!

Best,

Mark

PS as an aside, if you decide that it would be easier, you certainly could run an aquarium of that size using canister filters - but you'd lose all the advantages mentioned above, and the chance to have a grow out area, and your reverse lighting project.


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## imported_Kris (Feb 4, 2003)

Hey Mark,
Thanks for the great reply. I'm looking forward to this too. I've been wanting to do a full blown tank with all the gadgets for years now.



> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Markymark:
> If I had a tank that size I'd try and use suspended pendant lighting (metal halide or mercury vapour) in order to keep the view of that four foot by two foot six surface area - it's the only way to get the best view of the floating plants you want, and my favourite view of stands of stem plants.


The tank will be lit by (2) 250 watt Iwasaki 6500k bulbs in Lumenarc III reflectors. They will be suspended about 8" above the tank or maybe more if the plants don't respond well. A suspended system is a must to avoid heat and allow for top down viewing.



> quote:
> 
> In a tank with that volume I presume you'll be using a pressurised system for CO2 injection.


Absolutely. I will be purchasing a system with a ph controller.



> quote:
> 
> As your filter (and therefore your overflow) will be working all the time, any slight loss of CO2 will be constant, and will be compensated for by the amount of CO2 you need to inject to maintain your desired pH. So you might use a very slightly greater amount of CO2 (ie, your canister will need refilling slightly more often) but the loss of CO2 from the overflow will not make reaching your desired pH/CO2 levels impossible - in fact you probably won't even notice it.


So you maintain that a standard overflow will suffice with co2 loss being relatively negligible?



> quote:
> 
> The benefits of using an overflow to a sump - having no filter in the tank, being able to put any pH probes/thermostats/CO2 diffusers, etc out of sight in the sump, the ease with which you can increase/decrease the amount of filtration at any time, and the crystal clear surface water you will have from the use of an overflow far outweigh any small loss of CO2 (in my view). However, if you are really concerned about it have a search on the internet for the phrase durso standpipe - you'll get results on lots of reef aquarium forums, where the main benefit of the standpipe is to reduce the amount of noise made by an overflow, but it also gets rid of the large, thin layer of water falling inside the overflow, and would reduce CO2 loss to nearly nothing. You could also ensure that the water entering the sump enters below the water level in the sump to avoid any splashing. In the sump design, try to avoid tall 'waterfalls' - or simply use a coverglass over the whole sump.


I have been on RC for years, but haven't bothered to post much lately as I took my reef tank down. I helped a buddy retrofit a durso into his lifereef overflow last weekend, so I'm familiar with how they work.



> quote:
> 
> Overflows are usually built with a 'comb' a few inches high at the top of them, and this will prevent your precious floating plants (and small fish) from dissappearing from your tank.


Yep. Mine will have an external overflow so only the teeth will be visible from the front of the tank. I figured I might as well not hold anything back.



> quote:
> 
> The idea of having your cuttings/grow outs reverse lit is one that I have wanted to try for over a decade (since reading "dynamic aquaria - creating living ecosystems") but never got round to doing.


I don't think it will be too difficult. I'll partition the sump and steal some of the overflow water so the cuttings don't get torn to shreds in the current. I'm undecided on whether I want to have a section for emersed, use baskets, etc.



> quote:
> 
> Do lots of research before you order your tank and overflow, or get your existing tank drilled. You could, for example, have an additional holle drilled in the overflow section for the return pipe to be plumbed through, and an additional one (with a standpipe that reaches higher than the tank's highest water level) to route any electric cords through for any in-tank equipment (eg substrate heater, additional pwerhead etc.).


I'm not planning on using any in-tank equipment. The returns will be routed through 4 bulkheads in the back with loc-line to direct and adjust flow. I hate looking at powerheads, heaters, cords, etc. in the display tank.



> quote:
> 
> Another couple who have been running planted tanks with trickle filters for many years, and have done experiments on CO2 loss (minimal) are George and Karla Booth - a search on their names should get you to some interesting sites. Personally, I am not a fan of trickle filters for planted aquaria - mostly because I think on a heavily planted tank of that size, with a decent sized sump, and small fish (teras, dwarf cichlids, ottociclus etc.) you could probably get by with no (biological) filter at all, though I am a huge fan of the advantages having a separate sump, as outlined above, and also the fact that you are increasing the gallonage of your system. You will probably want to have some kind of biological system for peace of mind, but with a sump system that's really easy to integrate. Of course, if you plan to keep bigger fish (discus, arrowana) you might well want more biological filtration.


I'll throw a small bag of biological media in the sump, but I want the plants to do the work. Fish will be (3-4) altum angels, (10-12) colombian tetras, (15-20) clown killies, and (25) otos. Of course that will probably change, but that's my list for now.



> quote:
> 
> As you can probably tell, I am very excited (and jealous) of the outline of the project you are suggesting, as I'm sure many on this site will be. Let me know if you want to discuss any of this more. And have fun with your new system - don't rush it! Plan, research, replan!


Of course. I've been planning this for quite some time now. You should get a new tank so I don't feel like such a lone ranger here.


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## Josh Simonson (Feb 4, 2004)

Check out this link for a drill-less overflow that also doesn't have much way for co2 to escape.

http://www.aka.org/pages/libary/flow_through.html

At least for prototyping the system, I'd use something like that; in an area that can get very wet.


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## MarkyMark (May 20, 2004)

I found the article on CO2 loss I was talking about - it's at http://www.hallman.org/plant/booth2.html

They tested CO2 loss with a trickle filter with a turbulent water surface, no trickle filter with a turbulent water surface, trickle filter with a smooth water surface, and no trickle filter with a smooth water surface. (Gosh that was hard to type!)

When the surface of the tank was agitated violently by a powerhead the CO2 was gone in about 2-3 hours (with and without TF). When the tanks water surface wasn't agitated so violently (just gentle ripples) the CO2 was gone in 7 (with TF) to 8 (no TF hours). I know you're not planning on using a trickle tower, but presumably this demstrates that losses from an overflow can't be huge. Have a look at the link for more details. Unfortunately they don't specify exactly how the water get to the filter, but it has to be an overflow of some kind. Besides, with your pH controller you'll be laughing.

Sounds like you've got an excellent idea of what is possible, and what you want to do and you just want to bat it around a bit before committing yourself.

Unfortunately, I won't be setting up any dream tanks for a while due to: lack of spare cash; living in a shared house; the possibilty of emigration within a year. However, I have got a green light for a SMALL tank in the living room.

I'm planning to use a tank 16" x 16" x 14" tall, one suspended MV lamp, no cover/hood. Filter probably Fluval 104 at half speed, plants all tiny leaved to increase visual appearance of size in the tank, no fish much over 1" (except perhaps Ottos). Some rocks or petrified wood, mostly a lawn plant (hairgrass or E. tenellus, possibly a crypt species, probably some tiny rasbora. I don't like the look of fish that are more than a tenth of the tank's length, so I'll be really restricted on this one.

Two more things: Kris, I love altums too, but if I were to keep them I would want to use a tank 24" tall - are you sure they'll look good in 18" less three for substrate, less half for gap at the top = 14 1/2"? don't they reach about 10" tall?

Josh: That outlet looks like it could be good for a systemised system with lots of small tanks with a fairly low turnover - but it sure is ugly! Doesn't skim off the surface of the water either. It wouldn't be my choice for a large display tank, but would be good in a fish house where you had lots of tanks you didn't want to drill.

Mark

PS - if you haven't seen your tank yet, this page has some photos of one that is 30" deep and 18" high - but a bit longer than the one you're planning - http://www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiytank/bndiytank.htm . Gives you a great idea of what a brilliant space you'll have for planting. And out of interest, have you planned the stand or substrate yet?


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## Josh Simonson (Feb 4, 2004)

It's no more ugly than the uplift on a canister filter. All the bends would be behind the tank, which is out of sight.

You could make it skim by adding a U such that the input is a hole at the surface of the water, with fingers to keep the fishies out. May I suggest a sink trap? hahahaha. Seriously though, I think it could be done smaller than the big box that DIY guy did on the back of his tank.


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## Aqua Dave (Mar 16, 2004)

Hmmmmm.. I think I would have to argue those trickle filter results. I started off running a trickle filter on my 150 and I went through CO2 very quickly. I would empty a 10 lb tank in a little over a month and a half and this was with my Ph set at 7.4. I suspected my CO2 reactor was contributing to the high utilization, but I think it is working with close to 100% efficiency after investigation.

I'm converting the filter to just a sump by gradually removing the bio-media. I'll do mechanical filtration in the sump, but all bio filtration will be done in the tank. I've been monitoring my ammonia and nitrite and have not noticed any spikes as I've been removing the media.

It may depend on the trickle filter and overflows, but I don't think it would be fair to tell people that a trickle filter has a minimal impact on CO2 consumption.

David


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Interesting thread! I've a 75 gallon I picked up that was being used for saltwater. It is already drilled w/ bulkhead fittings in place. I was just going to cap it and use a cannister, but I'm really digging the idea of a "refugium/plant grow out" area below the tank. My stand allows for plenty of room.

I'm not at all concerned with the bioload, as I will let the plants do all the work. This will be a heavily planted show tank with small fish. CO2 will be a slight concern, as I will be running 2 tanks off of one 20lb. cylinder (the other tank is 100g).

Here's my ideas. Please feel free to comment, and hopefully I can inspire some genuine ingenuity at the same time!

Starting with water exiting the tank, I will use flexible plastic tubing (from Home Depot) rather than PVC. I'm wondering if I would be able to spiral it down (around some sort of pillar) to the refugium, eliminating any splashing effects. The majority of the current will be negated by using a baffle type set-up, made out of plexi-glass and aquarium safe silicone, resembling the insides of a Flowmaster muffler (the baffle will be in the sump below). That may be overkill, but it's better to over-engineer than half-arse it. From there, the water will collect into a 20g aquarium, maybe a 29, or somthing or similar size. The water will be pulled and returned by an external pump, hopefully powerful enough to provide adequate flow for proper water circulation in the main tank.

A comb will be set up to coarse-filter the outlet, and I'm still working on a way to filter fine particulate matter. I really don't want to dirty up the refugium/sump. Something at the end of the outlet, along with another pre-filter on the return (before the pump).

I think Kris and I have similar goals in mind. I look forward to hearing other's ideas.


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## Josh Simonson (Feb 4, 2004)

Is your def of a clown killie Fp. gardneri or Ep. annulatus? Gardneri might assault the angels, and annulatus would certainly become snacks. I'm going to try a few male n'sukka with my angels when the fry are big enough, but I don't have high hopes for them getting along.


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## Nillo (Jun 11, 2005)

The best way to have a sump with minimal CO2 loss, is to have the sump and the tank on the same level. Instead of having the sump underneath the tank you place it beside it or behind it. This, of course, takes up more horizontal space but does have a few advantages.
The first is that it is impossible for the sump to overflow in the event of a power outage. Even if you just had a direct siphon from one tank to the other, they would just balance out.
The second is the lack of head. Since you don't have to push water up 4 or 5 feet, fighting gravity all the way, your pump if far more efficient. Because of this you have the option of either getting a less expensive pump with lower head, having an enormous amount of throughput from a big pump, or creating head for the big pump by using manifolds and multiple small outlets placed throughout the tank.
Plant tanks enjoy the benefit of not needing large sumps, and oxygen exchange towers. We just need a place for unsightly equipment, and some mechanical filtration. With a tank that is 30" FTB you could easily have a sump that is 6" x 30" x 18" and have more than enough filtration. I recommend machine washable filter socks.


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## Aqua Dave (Mar 16, 2004)

The spiral idea is something I thought of as well. I don't know how much it would help, but it couldn't hurt. The key to me is to have your drain pipe terminte under the water in your sump.

Most of the stuff I've read suggests and what I'm doing is to do the mechanical filtration the first thing in your sump. You could place a filter bag or sock around your drain outlet or use a filter pad in one of your baffles. Then you could use a polishing block to remove really fine stuff.

I'm using an external pump with no problems. I'm thinking about going up a size to get a little more flow, but the cool thing is that I can just take out the current pump and slap in the new one without having to do anything else. I have my CO2 reactor and UV sterilizer after my pump on the return line to the aquarium. I would suggest oversizing your pump a little as you can always use a ball valve to restrict the flow some.

Depending on your overflow constuction you may not have a problem with your sump getting filled up in a power outage. My overflows are constructed such that only a couple gallons of water goes into the sump if the power goes out.

I personally like using a sump and planned my aquarium to use one.

David


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