# Oak Leaves under Sand



## Terra Incognita (Jun 12, 2007)

So I've grown curious of something. In my Apistogramma and Crenicichla tanks, I use heavy oak leaf litter. The oak softens the water, lowers pH, and stains the water. After a while, they break down into a mulm that has to be vacuumed out.

I'm curious to know if anyone has experimented with, or has any thoughts/comments/knowledge about what would happen if I covered the bottom of a tank (or sections of it, if need be) with dried Oak leaves, and covered them with inert play sand. Waited a couple weeks for the leaves to break down, and then planted plants in it. I imagine the mulm would be a decent natural substrate. Kind of Au Natural. Any thoughts?


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

No thoughts but I have lots of both and am very interested in what happens. Do it please and let us know. Good idea.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Why not get a 5 - 10 gallon tank and try this combination? That helps a lot of us when you report what happened. I suspect it will work fine, as long as you don't disturb the substrate too much, but you can only be sure by trying it.


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## Terra Incognita (Jun 12, 2007)

I think I may just have to. I will use either Quercus bicolor (Swamp White Oak), or Quercus Alba (standard White Oak) because those are what I use for my Apistogramma tanks. I know from soil tests around the base of the tree that the soil is acidic, full of NP&K. I imagine it is because the leaves get these nutrients from the ground, then the leaves dry up, and fall down. Decompose into the soil, releasing it all over it again, and it repeats itself. Oaks grow in acid soil, so if it doesn't do anything else, it'll still soften my water. In my apisto and Crenicichla tanks, it lowers my pH from my tap of 6.6 down to 5.8-6.0 depending on when I collect it and from where.

I'm no plant genius.. not by a long shot, so I will do my best to test it, however I can't be sure if my results will mean anything. If the plants LIVE, it will mean something. But if they look really bad, and die, it could mean this isn't effective... or it could (and most likely would) be just my mistake and me not knowing totally what I'm doing. That's why I was wondering if anyone else would like to test it, or has tested it.. or atleast thought about it. However, I will do my best to do what I can.


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

Please lead the way. Results really don't matter. What matters is the knowledge, negative or positive, it is all information that is useful. Knowing something does not work is almost as good as knowing something will.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

If oak leaves under sand softens the water I will put some in my DIY filter.
Looking forward to hearing about the results.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

I routinely use manure under fine beach sand with no problems.

But leaves under sand give me black anaeorbic patches. Nast stuff. it's the one thing I won't put under sand.

If you can find them, the berries of the black alder tree work as well as if not better than "Indian almond" which work better than oak leaves. On berry per 1 g tank is all you seem to need.

Charlie Drew turned me on to this.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

rs79 said:


> I routinely use manure under fine beach sand with no problems.
> 
> But leaves under sand give me black anaeorbic patches. Nast stuff. it's the one thing I won't put under sand.
> 
> ...


So what did the berries do to the chemistry of the water?


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> So what did the berries do to the chemistry of the water?


When you first started with the beach sand what preperations did you make. For I read beach sand has a lot of salt in it that you can't get out. True?? If true not a problem for your fish? I do add the salt from pet store to tank occaisionally. Don't believe it is the same as salt from beach.


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## Terra Incognita (Jun 12, 2007)

rs79 said:


> I routinely use manure under fine beach sand with no problems.
> 
> But leaves under sand give me black anaeorbic patches. Nast stuff. it's the one thing I won't put under sand.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've used Ketapang leaves, but I've never tried black alder berries


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

Black alder berries contain the same chemicals as indian almond leaves. Their chemisty is pretty well understood - just google for it.

Any salt can be rinsed out. Freshwater sand obviously doesn't contain any.


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## Terra Incognita (Jun 12, 2007)

Well as for this oak leave thing, I guess it's not bad. I buried some under parts of a 55g tank, covered with Play Sand. HC is growing better here than it was in a tank with C02, Flourite, and a constant supply of steady ferts. I didn't really do a formal experiment, but so far, it's alright. I'm keeping it for now, atleast.


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