# Looking for Someone with Similar Setup



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

*Original objective*: 70 Gal. planted tank with community fish. - All items purchased starting in Feb. 2008.

*Aquarium*: 70 g. Oceanic glass, measures 36" wide, 18" deep (front to back), 25" ht.

*Substrate*: equal mixture of Flourite and Eco-Complete, approximately 4" deep.

*Water*: well water. Water hardness kH ranges from 6 - 8 drops or 107.4 - 143.2. gH ranges from 12 - 14 drops or 214 - 250. pH runs from 7.2 to 7.6.

*Plants*: several varieties of fast growing plants for bright lights.

*Fish*: approximately 38 small (tetras, danios, rasbora, etc), includes two (2") clown loaches and two larger (4") fish (red tail shark and flying fox).

*Artifacts*: - two softball size rocks and two pieces of wood.

*Light System*: Tek-Light system - (4) T5-HO 6K Midday 39 w bulbs purchased in February. Two separate light switches on separate timers (2 bulbs each). I now burn only 2 bulbs from 8:00 am to 7:00 pm. I was burning them from 7:00 am to 7:30 pm and the other 2 bulbs for about 3 hours mid day.

*Heater*: Azoo Titanium 300w heater

*Filter*: Fluval 405 canister filter.

*CO2 system*: 10 lb tank (source beverage quality), regulator, needle valve and Aqua Medic Reactor 500. Was running same as lights. Not in use at this time due to problems with algae.

*Chemical Ferts*: Was following the recommendation on this forum. Dosing 3 times a week (¼ tsp Plantex CSM+B, ¼ tsp KH2PO4 (Mono Potassium Phosphate, and ¾ tsp Potassium Nitrate 13.5-0-46.2). Dry ingredients were added to a cup of water and poured into the tank. This was followed by a 50% water change at end of week. The ferts are from http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/Store.php. The labels read as follows:
KH2PO4 - To create a phosphorous solution comparable to the bottle products on the market add 1 level tsp Phosphate and 1 rounded ¼ tsp Potassium Sulfate to 1 liter distilled H2O. This will result in a solution of ~0.3% available P205 and ~0.2% K2SO4.
Potassium Nitrate - Sears Conlin PMDD Formula (1 tbl Plantex CSM, 1 tbl MgSO4+7H2O, 2 tbl K2SO4, 1 tbl KNO3)
Plantex CSM+B - See website above for ingredients / quantities.

*Problem*: After starting CO2 and ferts, algae took over entire tank, so I shut it down. Still fighting algae. Dosing Seachem Flourish occasionally to combat algae.


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

My recommendations:

1. Start your CO2 back up at like 1 to 2 bubbles per second and keep an eye on it using a drop checker with 4dkH reference solution in it.

2. Run all 4 lights for 8 hours per day. With only 2 bulbs running you are not giving your plants enough light to compete with algae. All 4 would be about 2.2 wpg which is still on the lower side of the scale, medium light.

3. Continue with ferts.

The plants need a carbon source so I think that is your biggest problem, that and light. It may take a few weeks to really see a difference so just stick with it and wait to see.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> 2. Run all 4 lights for 8 hours per day. With only 2 bulbs running you are not giving your plants enough light to compete with algae. All 4 would be about 2.2 wpg which is still on the lower side of the scale, medium light.


I don't believe wpg means anything. That was all based on the older florescent bulbs. Based on the research I have already done with regard to lights, the T5-HO output is approx. 3000 lumins / bulb times 4 equals 12,000 lumins divided by 648 sq.in. gives me 18.5 lumins / sq.in, which puts it in the "High" to "Very High" light range or equivalent to somewhere between 3 to 4 wpg based on the old tubes.

I turned on the CO2 until my drop check dKH solution turned green and increased the lights when I started dosing. After waiting 3 weeks and the algae took off and I shut it down.

If I may ask, how similar is your setup to what I posted? Just keeping a referrence...


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

Manwithnofish, I agree with you on lighting. I have a standard size 75 gallon, dose EI, pressurized CO2 with a DIY reactor. I use 2x54 T5HO. I think you should resume your CO2 and fert routine being sure that you have adequate CO2. A drop checker gets you in the ballpark but after that you have to watch your plants and fish. I'd guess it might not be as high as you think so try gradually increasing it. You might think about lowering your lighting period to 8 hours for now and increasing it as your plants fill in.

As far as the algae, clean out as much as you can and any plants that are affected you may want to replace. Then stay on top of it. Clean out any algae as soon as it appears and you might also think about 2 or 3 50% water changes per week until you get the algae under control. Concentrate on what the plants need and eventually you will get things under control. We've all been there and it takes patience.

Here's a good article on lighting levels I think you'll like and find useful.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/75776-simple-light-test-show-high-light.html


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

OK I'll give to the calculations for light but there still seems to be something out of balance. Most people have gone down to using an 8 hour lighting period so you may want try that.

My set up is:

*Tank* 55 gallon 48x12x18h.

*Filtration* Cascade 1000 canister filter

*Substrate* Aquariumplants.com substrate. (I think someone said it was like SMS)

*Water* I use tap water with kH 2 and GH 5 degrees.

*CO2* Pressurized CO2 10# tank with in-line reactor

*Lighting* Running 2x65w PC and 2x28w T5.

*Ferts* Using EI dosing with fertsfrom Rex Grigg, K2SO4, KH2PO4, KNO3, Plantex CSM+B. 50% water change weekly.

About the same on fish and plants.

BTW what kind of algae do you have? This may help narrow down what is going on in your tank. Also, is there any specific areas that are worse? How is the flow in the tank?


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

My setup is somewhat similar to yours 75g. Tek lighting. MY water is softer.

Here's the steps that I would take to combat your algae woes.

1. Leave it at 2 bulbs for now.

2. Get that CO2 running. I would ditch that reactor and either build an inline Rex-type or get an AM 1000 Use a drop checker to help verify CO2. Place it low in tank and as far from the CO2 inlet as possible.

3. Increase flow throughout the tank. Get at least one more large canister. Another fluval or XP3 or XP4, Eheim 2217 or 2028 would be good ones to look at. Use one of the canisters to power your CO2 reactor. You may want to add a powerhead or Koralia type pump too. I have 2 XP3s and a Koralia 2, and a powerhead moving water around my tank.

4. Spot treat the algae with Excel. Turn off all the filters, use a syringe to dose right on the algae. Wait 10 min. Turn filters back on.

5. Load the tank with anacharis, hornwort, hygro, and other fast growing stems.

6. Start ferts back up.

7. Take a step back, breathe deep, repeat...."I will not let the algae defeat me" about 100 times. This probably should have been #1.

That's how I would tackle an "algae outbreak". When it boils down to brass tacks, I've learned that most algae issues come down to 1) Too much light 2) Inconsistent CO2 3) Poor circulation. In that order. Get those straight and the rest should follow.

Disclaimer: I have only been at this for about 3 years. There are many here who know much more than I. The above are all strictly my opinions. I hope some it you may find useful.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> From Jeff5614: You might think about lowering your lighting period to 8 hours for now and increasing it as your plants fill in. As far as the algae, clean out as much as you can and any plants that are affected you may want to replace.


My plants are growing very well...I have to trim and remove quite a bit in my fight against the algae. It isn't possible to clear the algae out / off everything without removing everything...which I hope I won't have to do. I'd like to bounce things off you because we both have the T5-HO lights which might prove to be very significant in combating this evil creature. Thanks for the great link on Tom Barr's thread.



> From Dogdoc: I would ditch that reactor and either build an inline Rex-type or get an AM 1000. (and) Increase flow throughout the tank. Get *at least one more large canister*. Another fluval or XP3 or XP4, Eheim 2217 or 2028 would be good ones to look at. Use one of the canisters to power your CO2 reactor. You may want to add a powerhead or Koralia type pump too. I have 2 XP3s and a Koralia 2, and a powerhead moving water around my tank.


Curious about ditching the reactor? It wasn't cheap and seems to be as good as most internal type reactors. Do you feel this device is just too inefficient? I'm not sure I could fit another Fluval 405 type filter in my tank or my cabinet. I'm just not ready for that. I do appreciate the advice, I'm was hoping to solve this without more stuff to have to clean and maintain.

Thanks Jmontee and Dogdoc for the system setup specs. Someone suggested that I might have better success combating problems if I find someone with a very similar system. Perhaps they went down the same path I'm on now and hopefully they found a solution that did not involve throwing out what I have purchased and starting over. Seem logical to me.

Not sure on the exact types of algae. I have bushy little (dark) tuffs that grow on rocks and edges of leaves (but this is not too bad). The other is hair algae I think...green stringy...and yet another that is this weird bright florescent green slimy kind of stuff that clings to objects. I probably have species that have not yet been classified.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Here's some additional info: I had the wrong check valve in line on my CO2 system. It was made apparently for Calcium reactor systems for salt water. The valve (spring) was too hefty to overcome resulting in a build up of pressure before it would open. Therefore my CO2 was being released in strong spurts and then building up pressure again. I have a replacement already but waiting for a new bubble counter (JBJ cracked).

I noticed in the diagram that came with my new Dennerle check valve that it is in line between the regulator-needle valve and the bubble counter. I think in my first failed attemp, I had the check valve between the bubble counter and the CO2 reactor. Does it matter where I put the check valve?


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

Man,

The green slimy stuff is almost definitely blue green algae. It usually shows up in areas that have little flow. It is actually a type of bacteria and can sometimes also be related to high phosphates, or at least has been in the past. I think it has more to do flow. You may be able to add a powerhead somewhere in your tank to make sure that you have enough flow like dog said. This along with a good fert regimen and lighting will help with all types of algae. Also with making sure that the CO2 in the water reaches all of the plants in the tank.

BBA (the little black tufts) usually shows up when you have CO2 fluctuations and too much nutrients in the tank. If the plants are not working at their best, ie not enough CO2 with good lighting, then you get a build up of nutrients and the algae farming begins. BBA can also be fought by spot dosing of fluorish excel. When you are doing the water change just take a syringe and inject a little right on to the areas of algae. This will get a very high concentration of the excel right on the BBA and in a few days you will see it turning pink and falling off.

The hair algae will also eventually take care of itself when things are working well. I would try and remove as much of it as possible though. Try maybe like three times a week to get in there and get as much of it as you can.

Obviously these are my opinions so take it is you will. My last comment will be to hang in there. I don't think that anyone in this hobby can say that they have never had an algae problem. 

It shouldn't matter where you have the check valve. I have it between the bubble counter and the reactor.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Yep, that was me suggesting finding someone with similar specs. I think that is a good thing to do. More importantly in that same thread, I said find someone who has tanks you admire and follow one person's advice. It is too easy to get too many cooks in the kitchen, get conflicting advice, and get discouraged.

The hardest part for me was accepting that I'm probably not a good enough plant keeper to run all 4 bulbs of my TEK. Once I turned down the light, things got easier. 

I still believe that the big 3 are light, CO2, and good flow. Adding another canister, or a couple more powerheads won't be that painful.

The Excel spot treatment will really help kill what algae is already there, as well as augmenting your CO2.

And the BGA was probably brought on by a lack of flow, and bottoming out your nitrates when you stopped dosing.

I really don't know about the AM500 reactor. I was thinking it was one of the membrane diffusers, but I just looked it up and it is not. It may work for you. But I don't see a lot of people advocating them. I do see people using and having success with reactors and venturis, and even modified powerheads if you like mist. I guess it wont matter if you can get your tank to 30 ppm and (more importantly) get that 30 ppm water circulated to all of the plants.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm not sure on the water flow thing....I mean I have some very thick and densely planted areas (big Amazon swords) that may make water flow at the bottom of the tank difficult. My tank is 25" deep. I could try placing a power head down lower some where. I just feel that every week I have to take so many things out of the tank and break them all down to clean them. I hate to add any thing else to the tank. But then again, if I can solve this problem maybe I won't be having to clean it each week.


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

That's absolutely true. I haven't taken anything out of my tank, except plants, in like 7 months. Get the flow going in the tank and it wil help out.

Be careful of placement though cause if you put it to near the substrate and it lifts the mulm you'll have a silty mess for few days.

BTW how often are yu cleaning out your canister filter? Just curious cause if you get a lot of build up in there it can hamper the flow too.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

What all are you having to take out and break down to clean?

Shouldn't have to do that with a powerhead or Koralia. I really like the Koralias, good flow rates that don't seem to blow plants around and easy to direct where you want them.

Another good reason for a second canister. I clean one of mine every two weeks. That way they each get cleaned once a month, and less chance of disturbing the bio-filter. Also if for whatever reason, one fails, the other should hold me over until I can replace it.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Yep, that was me suggesting finding someone with similar specs. I think that is a good thing to do. More importantly in that same thread, I said find someone who has tanks you admire and follow one person's advice. It is too easy to get too many cooks in the kitchen, get conflicting advice, and get discouraged.
> 
> The hardest part for me was accepting that I'm probably not a good enough plant keeper to run all 4 bulbs of my TEK. Once I turned down the light, things got easier.


It sounds to me as if you two guys are just looking for people who will agree with you! :fencing: It is possible to get differing opinions and then draw your own conclusions! One of you doesn't believe in the watts per galon rule and the other is afraid to use high light levels because of algae problems I guess!

I have never been a fan of staggering light times through out the day... there has never ever been any sort of data to suggest that it accomplishes anything of any benefit, but if it works for you then that is all that matters. ( but its not working because you still have algae problems)

Cutting the light from a normal 12 hour cycle to 8 hours just to control algae growth does not work in the long term. Most plants that come from the tropics need 12 hours a day. Eventually algae can re-ajust to any light period. All you do is slow down plant growth.

If you like your internal Aqua medic reactor, then keep it, but an external reactor that connects to your cannister filter is attractive for several reasons.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Since the algae disaster, I've been having to clean everything every week. This includes the canister filter and everything in the tank. I pull out the heater, the AM500 reactor, and the intake and output spouts from the filter. This has been necessary because the algae is breaking free in clumps and clogging up everything. I've also removed plants and planted new ones which has generated a lot of silt from the substrate during the water change.

I think I have to take this one step at a time or it will just get too confusing. I'm not going to solve this in one day. So my take away from this will be to try to increase circulation, get CO2 and fert going again and see where it goes. 

One last question for now. If I get the CO2 / fert levels where they should be, and the plants grow as people talk about, will that not make the algae receed, or do I have to get rid of it first before I go back to the CO2 & dosing?


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

They go hand in hand. IMO you'll have to do both if your problem is as bad as you paint it. Remeber that algae is also using up a lot of nutrients. If the tank is full of it then the plants won't be able to out compete it. Also if there is any growing on leaves then those leaves will be starved for light. That's one of the reasons it is recommended to remove any leaves or plants that are sverly infested.

Get out as much as you can and get the ferts and CO2 going.

Also you can think about doing a black out but that's up to you. Check in the algae forum for blackouts and their results.

Don't forget that by cleaning out yur filter every week you may also be changing the bacterial content and thusly the biological filtration of the tank. Many feel that this isn't so important because the plants take up ammonia and such but it may be another issue in your setup.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> The green slimy stuff is almost definitely blue green algae. It usually shows up in areas that have little flow. It is actually a type of bacteria


Thats right, its not algae at all, but bacteria growth, and you can kill it with an anti biotic, but you absolutley must get rid of the dead stuff. If you don't use an anti biotic, you are going to be fighting it and doing daily water changes for weeks.

BGA blooms when things are not stable and that includes your lights. Increase circulation and get things stable.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm not really looking for anyone to agree with me. I'm just trying to offer some insight as to what helped me with my algae battles.

Note the disclaimer at the bottom. I'm fully aware that there are a ton of people around here who have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about planted tanks. Robert is definitely one of them.

So fire away, I'm sure he will appreciate any help. I know I would.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> It is possible to get differing opinions and then draw your own conclusions! One of you doesn't believe in the watts per galon rule


Yep, that's me. And I've done just exactly what you suggested. You can go with the watt per gallon rule. I'll go with Tom Barr's research on this one. So, I've drawn my own conclusion on this. Maybe, your just afraid to admit that you are wrong Robert.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

I had one of these Hagen Elite Mini Underwater filters, so I added it near the bottom of the tank.

http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?sku=994901

Will this work, or is it too little?


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## rod (Aug 10, 2005)

One word of caution would be to not disturb your substate. I put ecocomplete in my 75 gal this year after I had to redo it, now I've been fighting algae outbreaks every time I disturb the substrate.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Manwithnofish, I feel your frustrations from the various threads you have posted on this subject! FWIW, here's another 2 cents worth of adivce/info.

Some observations: you have well water, and it is fairly hard. I also have well water and it is a little harder than yours (kh9-10, gh12-13). From lots of reading of folks experiences and from the info on this thread, let me tell you it is *usually* more difficult to be totally algae free with harder water than with softer water. Also dosing via EI will typically work better than dosing via PPS with hard waters.

So, clean out manually as much as possible. If you uproot plants, gravel vac the area well. Re-plant heavily, with lots of fast growers. Do a major water change - 60-70%. Calculate from the fertilator how much to add to your tank to achieve 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4. Add an equivalent size spoon of potassium (K) as you add NO3. (For example, if you're adding 1/2tsp of KNO3 add 1/2tsp of K2SO4). If your hard water is due to limestone, you will need to add Mg (Epsom salt from drugstore). Mid week, add half as much of NO3 and PO4 as you added at the water change, but do not add any more potassium or magnesium. Feed your fish well. Add micros 3x a week (I add 2ml Flourish and 1ml of iron chelate to my 50's. You have CSM and I've never used that one). Set up your CO2 so that you will have 25ppm levels when your lights are on, and run it 24/7.

If you don't have any, get some algae eaters. For your 70, I'd get 2-3 SAE's and an equal number of ottos. SAE's can be a pita, but from personal experience, if I don't have them, I start to see bits of BBA showing up in my tanks. It's one of the pitas of harder water. With the sae's there, no trace. Just know you can't have moss there - it will become their own personal salad bar if you try to grow some. 

Run your lighting 8-9 hours per day, no midday burst, no rest period. Just run it straight. Your full lighting is around 2.2wpg, which, whether you believe in wpg rules or not, is moderate lighting.

Religiously do 50% water changes weekly, and wipe your glass down at that time.

Be patient. My waters are similar, and my lighting is similar to yours, though my tanks are a little smaller (50's).

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. 
Good luck. HTH!


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

This makes me sad.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Following recommendations from the thread:

Water Flow - I removed the Hagen Elite Mini filter (too little) and replaced it with a new HK-2. Much better flow in the tank. This was a common suggestion, so I did that. Still not ready to add another canister filter.

Algae - I also cleaned the tank and removed as much algae as possible. Took out the rocks and wood and soaked them in bleach water to kill the algae (then did multiple rinses). Pruned and/or removed plants with heavy algae.

CO2 - Replaced my check valve with the correct one and turned the CO2 back on. Not using a bubble counter.

Ferts - not yet!

Things are looking better, but then they always do after I do a major clean up, prune and rearrange the plants and sit back and enjoy for about 5 days....then the algae comes back....


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> Ferts - not yet!


Why?? If you have lighting, you need the food for the plants - carbon (CO2), nitrogen (nitrates), phosphorous (phosphates) and potassium as well as the micros.


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

Man,

No ferts and full light will absolutely equal algae outbreak. Algae can survive with very little while the plants will suffer. You need to start up the ferts or you might have less than 5 days before you get more algae.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm trying to get the CO2 rate established first. Don't have a bubble counter, just going by the drop checker. Came home from work today, after running CO2 for second day (turned it off last night) and I found drop checker on the yellow green side...definitely delivering CO2. Maybe too much? I did give the plants Flourish yesterday. I wanted to get the CO2 levels up (which I figured could take a day or two) then drop in the dry ferts which I figure would be instant.

Fish are not showing signs of stress. Plants were thinned & pruned pretty hard on this last cleaning..remaining plants are a mixture of well established and some new. Did not see any pearling from plants like I did before! What do you make of this?

Not running full lights...still just 2 bulbs T5-HO 39w each.

Edit: I've looked at the Fertilator, Chuck's calculator, and this thread and they are all different. I don't have the foggest idea of how much ferts to add. All I have is the KNO3 and the KH2PO4 (plus the Plantex).


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## Veloth (Jun 25, 2008)

You probably seen this but look here.EI Dosing


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> I've looked at the Fertilator, Chuck's calculator, and this thread and they are all different. I don't have the foggest idea of how much ferts to add. All I have is the KNO3 and the KH2PO4


From the fertilator: for your 70:
add 3/4tsp of KNO3; about 1/8tsp of KH2PO4 at water change and half as much at midweek. The above will give you about 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4 at full dose and half as much at the half dose. Dose your micros 2-3X a week when not dosing your macros.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Bert H said:


> From the fertilator: for your 70:
> add 3/4tsp of KNO3; about 1/8tsp of KH2PO4 at water change and half as much at midweek. The above will give you about 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4 at full dose and half as much at the half dose. Dose your micros 2-3X a week when not dosing your macros.


Well I'm trying to make sense of all this. What I was pointing out is that your recommendation is different from what's recommended under the EI posts (both the one above and the APC's Fertilizer subforum sticky), as well as Chuck's. I mean these are hughly different schemes and yet I assume they all work? People on this forum were talking like if I deviated from the "regime" even minutely, it would lead to disaster (which is what I had, which is what prompty them to come to the conclusion that I obviously should not be deviating from this strick regime)...does any one understand all this?

Perhaps it's more that there are just hundreds of ways that this works depending on each individuals unique parameters and everybody "stumbles" onto the one that works for them? If so, I'll never get there by trying to do what everyone else does (because everyone says to do something quite differently)....I'll just have to find my own unique combination by trial and error. That's not to say thay I don't appreciate the help and advice (even if I can't seem to make it work for me).

Incidentally, I lost one rasbora this morning...don't know if it was related to turning back on the CO2, but it does seem that I lose fish everytime I turn it back on.

So, I got my bubble counter today and set it up at 2 bps. Maybe I'll start trying your dosing regime tomorrow.

Signs should be required by law on all aquariums that says "caution, this can lead to a state of confusion, which could lead to drug use (for you and your fish)"


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

There are indeed more than one road to go down.  But there are generalizations which can be made, depending on the road you choose. 

For example: If you go 'el natural', you don't fertilize, only top off. If you go high tech, you need to fertilize. High light = better chance of algae unless you stay on top of nutrients. Etc...

I started out dosing strictly EI as recommended, then one day I decided to test my nitrate levels and they were around 80ppm. That's when I decided to use my head and realize that 'one size does NOT fit all'.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Ok today was day 3 with CO2 back on. Today I also started with all 4 bulbs turned on and I add ferts. KNO3 3/4 tsp and KH2PO4 1/8 tsp. I'll add half that amount on Friday and then do the water change on Sunday. I noticed that my drop checker was greenish yellow...definitely delivering CO2. Still NOT seeing any pearling going on as I did before ....I reduced the plant mass via pruning so maybe that's the explanation. So far, the algae doesn't show a sign of anothe onslaught.

Should I retire? Would I succeed with this if I devoted all my time to this?


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

End of day 5. Still not seeing a "significant" response from the plants. Fish seem to be doing ok. Drop checker still greenish yellow. Some pearling now visible. Algae...???? maybe ready to rebloom.

Ok, if this works...I think the reduced fert scheme is a big contributor to the success....if it fails, I'm blaming the ferts.

How long can I keep this thread alive, if I'm the only contributing editor? Maybe I can have my own private thread...Maybe I can take over the forum and drive everybody off? Mine...ALL MINE...:Cry:


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Don't assume, no response equals no interest.  

If you made it to day 5 without any significant algae, then your weekly 50% water change is just around the corner. At that time, make sure you wipe down your glass to remove whatever gda has formed, and dose your macros accordingly. 

Sounds like you're definitely making progress!


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## latte hiatus (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm very pleased to find someone to compare my tank parameters with! 

*Initial setup:*
October 2008

*Tank*:
Oceanic 70g 36x18x25

*Substrate*:
2:1 mixture of Flourite Black to Onyx Sand - 2.5" in front, 5" in back

*Water*:
From tap
pH: 7.8
KH: 9 degrees
GH: 17 degrees
Nitrates: 10-15 ppm

5 gallon water change every two weeks

*Plants*: _Blyxa japonica_ _Egeria densa_ Several_Echinodorus cordifolius_ _Hygrophilia difformis_ _Micranthemum umbrosum_ _Myriophyllum mattogrossense_ _Riccia fluitans_ _Rotala wallichii
_A few more I've probably forgotten
 Density: About 50-60% of the substrate is planted

*Fish*:
60 Reed Tetras _Hyphessobrycon elachys_ 6 Glowlight Tetras _Hemigrammus erythrozonus_ 7 Phoenix Rasboras _Boraras merah_ 6 Otos _Otocinclus affinis_ 2 Thai Flying Foxes _Epalzeorhynchus kalopterus_ 2 Siamese Algae Eaters _Crossocheilus siamensis_ 2 Hillstream Loaches _Beaufortia kweichowensis_

*Invertebrates:*
6 Red Cherry Shrimp _Neocaridina denticulata sinensis_ 3 Ghost Shrimp _Palaemonetes sp._ ?
 Ramshorn Snails ?
 Pond Snails

*Aquascaping*:
Three pieces of driftwood

*Light System*:
Nova Extreme T-5 HO 2x39W with Giesemann Midday 6000K bulbs, 12 hours a day

*Heating*:
Eheim Jager 200W @ 76F

*Filter/Circulation:*
Eheim ECCO 2236

*CO2 Setup*:
10# tank with JBL regulator, 1bps 24/7, to maintain roughly 15 - 20 ppm (drop checker with 4dKH solution). In-tank diffusion via a Hagen Elite Mini (thanks, Nicolay!). Was running DIY yeast at approximately the same rate for a few weeks.

*Fertilization Schedule*:
PPS-Pro Standard Macro Solution @ 4mL per day
Seachem Flourish @ 1 - 2 mL per day
10% iron chelate to achieve .1 ppm once a week

Offhand, I'd say that our water parameters, fish stocking, and equipment are relatively similar. You have exactly twice as much lighting (in terms of wattage) and quite a bit more circulation (my Eheim 2236 is rated at 160gph before media, compared to 340gph for the Fluval 405).

In terms of stock, I am curious about your algae eaters. IMHO, you want plants to out-compete problem algae, but you also want to nip algae in the bud with an algae cleaning squad before they can even get a foothold. Out of curiosity, have you observed your red tail shark and/or flying fox grazing frequently on algae (whether on the glass, substrate, rocks, driftwood, plants, etc.)?

Our fertilization techniques also differ. You are dosing EI, whereas I'm on PPS-Pro. Getting back into the freshwater planted hobby, I was surprised by how much has changed in the fertilization schools of thought in the past decade. During my reefkeeping days, one of the primary goals was to set up a self-sustainable ecosystem with minimal inputs (light, food, and calcium). While I'm positive EI works well for those who are doing it, with its emphasis on excessive nutrients and frequent resets via large water changes, EI didn't sit quite well with me - mostly because I'm plain lazy and don't like to lift buckets. 

Since my tank has been up for just about two months (really about 5 weeks after accelerated cycling), I have the usual initial brown diatom algae on the glass, along with green spot algae appearing on the glass and on a few select plant leaves (not spreading), and one plant (received from another hobbyist) with some BBA (also not spreading from the affected leaves to the newer growth). About a week ago, the water became hazy white - I waited it out a few days, but it never turned green in a white cup and didn't clear up by itself, so I bought the $40 9W UV in-tank sterilizer from Petsmart. After running the UVS continuously for 3 days, the water is almost back to normal clarity. The fast-growing plants have taken off, and pearling begins about 3 hours into the photoperiod, though a few weeks back, I noticed yellowing of newer leaves so I upped the dosage of iron chelate to a daily dose of .07 ppm (assuming 60 gallons of water) for five days, so the ferrousphiles (is there such a word?) can store some away. The fish get fed twice a day with as much as they can eat in two minutes or so, and I'll throw in a couple of algae wafers for the bottom feeders every other day.

Since the current algae isn't spreading in my tank, I'll do some trimming and clip off the affected leaves with GSA and BBA when I've got more time on my hands. I'm also planning to add another 2x39W T5 HO fixture to effectively double the lighting and build a DIY combo CO2 reactor/inline heater. Debating whether to add a Koralia 1 for just a bit more circulation. Now I'm worried that the extra lighting and circulation will bring about an unwelcome algae bloom. 

How long was it until your problems with algae got out of hand? I'm also wondering if, by breaking down the tank to clean each time, you're essentially starting from scratch in terms of establishing the plants (particularly stem plants that require a week or so to settle into the substrate), so they aren't able to out-compete the algae immediately.

I believe you've already stated something to the effect of, "There is no magical formula," and I completely agree. What works for someone else is likely to require a little tweaking to work for you. My own approach is to achieve and maintain a balance within the ecosystem, and observe changes over time. It's important to be patient - I don't know who said it first, but I've personally learned the hard way how true it is that "The only things that happen quickly in this hobby are disasters." Happy Thanksgiving!


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Latte, give me time to digest and compare our systems. We do have some interesting comparisons.

For now, I need to add some information and see if I can get some advice.

Since, I've been back on CO2, ferts, etc, I just measured my kH and pH at the end of the day with max photosynthesis, pearling, activity. My kH is now 10!...it's gone up from 7 and my pH is 6.6 which is down from 7.4. So it's obvious that I'm getting a lot of CO2 in the tank, but why would kH go up?

Fish are showing no sign of stress. 
Drop checker is greenish yellow. 
Algae is better.
Plants are growing.
Maybe my Master test kit and "cards" are way off?


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## csaxe21 (Nov 25, 2008)

I'm don't have a setup like yours, but aside from keeping co2 to 1-2 bbs, and have your lights on for about 8 hrs a day, maybe you can check your phosphate, and try to bring it to a bit lower and more reasonable area, because phosphate is algae's best friend..


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> because phosphate is algae's best friend..


Most folks will disagree with this statement. Once upon a time, it was believed so, no longer.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

How did we jump to high phosphates?


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## latte hiatus (Oct 27, 2008)

Manwithnofish said:


> Latte, give me time to digest and compare our systems. We do have some interesting comparisons.


No problem - this is an interesting exercise for me, too, and I would very much like to follow up with your progress while you work through this.



Manwithnofish said:


> Since, I've been back on CO2, ferts, etc, I just measured my kH and pH at the end of the day with max photosynthesis, pearling, activity. My kH is now 10!...it's gone up from 7 and my pH is 6.6 which is down from 7.4. So it's obvious that I'm getting a lot of CO2 in the tank, but why would kH go up?
> 
> Fish are showing no sign of stress.
> Drop checker is greenish yellow.
> ...


Sounds like things are looking up already! I'll assume that you got your KH test kit back in February so it's not out of date, but you could double-check with a reference solution (say, the 4dKH solution you're using with the drop checker) to verify that the test kit is reading correctly. Unless you're topping off evaporate with tap water or using an additive (including ferts that might contain OH-), there's no good reason that your KH should increase while your pH decreases. Flourite is supposed to be inert, and you haven't observed any drastic changes in KH since setting up the tank nine months ago, correct? Just running through a quick checklist of potential KH influences - looking forward to your feedback on these!


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

From my post on a different forum it was suggested that the increased acidity my be reacting with my river rocks to increase the kH. Most logical explaination thus far, but as long as I'm doing 50+% wc weekly it shouldn't become an issue.

Latte, before I started using ferts and CO2, I only ran 2 of the 4 39w T5-HOs and I was somewhat successful. This covered from Feb. to about early Oct. Plants grew very well, but I was constantly having reoccuring bouts with algae. I had already purchase my CO2 equipment back in the spring but it took me 6 months to find a supplier who would fill MY tank (most wanted to swap tanks like propane dealers). My first attempt with the CO2 and ferts was disasterous for several reasons. Primary among those were, lack of circulation, inconsist dosing of both CO2 and ferts. I didn't initially have the correct check valve or a bubble counter and so I didn't know how much CO2 I was injecting. Now I have the right equipment and feel much better about that. I've also changed the fert scheme just a little, cutting it back somewhat from the EI plan. I think I'm getting better results.

As for our similarities, I think we have some striking differences right now. The amount of filter/flow and the light being the two biggest, along with the water change amounts.

As for the algae eaters, they are no match for the amount of algae I have had to battle. I have added 4 Corys recently and I think they are helping get excess food off the bottom. I had an algae growing on the substrate like grass and spreading throughout the entire tank. I removed almost all of that manually. If I could find a living creature that could eat that much algae it would be like "shock & aw" in the fish kingdom. ound:

It seems that my situation has improved or atleast stablized for now. My next thoughts are that I would like to get the AquaMedic 500 reactor out of the tank and replace it with the Rex G. DIY model. Along with that, I want to get the heater out of the tank and replace it with the inline heater. Both of these would be done in conjunction with adding another filter to drive them. Not sure if I'm ready for this yet, as I don't know how to size the filter to drive the CO2 reactor. At any rate, I think the additional filter will go a long way toward helping as well. I'm just not sure if I will do any of this yet though.


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## latte hiatus (Oct 27, 2008)

Manwithnofish said:


> From my post on a different forum it was suggested that the increased acidity my be reacting with my river rocks to increase the kH. Most logical explaination thus far, but as long as I'm doing 50+% wc weekly it shouldn't become an issue.


Ah, I must have missed any references to the river rocks in previous posts. Have you tested the rocks with vinegar? If they are indeed increasing your KH, they may not be suitable in the long run... It's like having a calcium reactor in your tank. 



Manwithnofish said:


> Latte, before I started using ferts and CO2, I only ran 2 of the 4 39w T5-HOs and I was somewhat successful. This covered from Feb. to about early Oct. Plants grew very well, but I was constantly having reoccuring bouts with algae. I had already purchase my CO2 equipment back in the spring but it took me 6 months to find a supplier who would fill MY tank (most wanted to swap tanks like propane dealers). My first attempt with the CO2 and ferts was disasterous for several reasons. Primary among those were, lack of circulation, inconsist dosing of both CO2 and ferts. I didn't initially have the correct check valve or a bubble counter and so I didn't know how much CO2 I was injecting. Now I have the right equipment and feel much better about that. I've also changed the fert scheme just a little, cutting it back somewhat from the EI plan. I think I'm getting better results.


Consistency in the long run certainly won't hurt - glad to hear things are improving!



Manwithnofish said:


> As for our similarities, I think we have some striking differences right now. The amount of filter/flow and the light being the two biggest, along with the water change amounts.
> 
> As for the algae eaters, they are no match for the amount of algae I have had to battle. I have added 4 Corys recently and I think they are helping get excess food off the bottom. I had an algae growing on the substrate like grass and spreading throughout the entire tank. I removed almost all of that manually. If I could find a living creature that could eat that much algae it would be like "shock & aw" in the fish kingdom. ound:


If you've got so much algae you'd need an unholy army of algae eaters to chow down, I completely agree that manual removal and other methods of algae eradication are necessary. Once the algae has been removed, you need an algae squad for PREVENTATIVE maintenance, scrubbing available surfaces to ensure that algae doesn't have an opportunity to take hold. As you're already aware, algae is and will continue to be a part of your aquarium - you won't ever be completely rid of all algae, so the algae eaters will keep algae in check at the minimum threshold. Algae will still be present, but you won't see them. AFAIK, Corys are scavengers, and will only nibble on algae if they are starving. I recommend SAEs and Otos, as well as cherry and/or Amano shrimp if they are compatible with your fishes.



Manwithnofish said:


> It seems that my situation has improved or atleast stablized for now. My next thoughts are that I would like to get the AquaMedic 500 reactor out of the tank and replace it with the Rex G. DIY model. Along with that, I want to get the heater out of the tank and replace it with the inline heater. Both of these would be done in conjunction with adding another filter to drive them. Not sure if I'm ready for this yet, as I don't know how to size the filter to drive the CO2 reactor. At any rate, I think the additional filter will go a long way toward helping as well. I'm just not sure if I will do any of this yet though.


There will be disagreement from others, but I personally believe mechanical filtration is highly overrated in a densely planted tank. Since chemical filtration is kept to a minimum, and biological filtration is also provided for by the plants/substrate, it seems unnecessary to add another filter. The primary reason I have a canister filter instead of just a powerhead is because I want to have the capability to add Purigen and (previously) peat or crushed coral without having them in the tank - asthetic reasons. Similarly, an in-line heater and CO2 reactor wouldn't perform any better than properly set-up in-tank versions, but having them out of the tank provides a much cleaner look. That said, I'm also planning to put together a DIY CO2 reactor and in-line heater combo that incorporates aspects of Rex Griegg's and various DIY forum designs, so maybe we should get together and compare notes.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

I have a large SAE and ottos, but again they don't stand a chance against all the algae that I get when everything gets out of balance and BOOM...it's so much algae, it scares the ****ens out of my algae eaters.

But....I'm not having that problem. Things are looking very positive. Now I just have to figure out how to control these out-of-control plants that are growing inches/day. My Cabomba furcata has shot to the top of the tank and become a stem with no leaves except one head on the top.

Still undecided about the DIY external CO2 reactor and inline heater. Scares me to have cut tubing junctions outside the tank as potential sources of major tank drainage. If the tubing came loose from the inline heater or the CO2 reactor, it would ciphen the tank dry. The damage to the house flooring system would be a major disaster. If I came home one day and found water everywhere, that would be the end of me ever having aquariums.

Just read a thread that says a lot of negative feedback received about Hydor inline heaters....think I'll stick with in the tank Stealth.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

What's happening now? Replaced my Zeo-Carb filter bags in the Fluval. Reduced the ferts (KNO3 & KH2PO4) a smidgen. Stopped the Plantex and went with the Flourish.

Notice that the Algae is making a come back. Mostly growing as thick tuffs (like grass) on the substrate. Plants are so dense, it's difficult to clean food from the root/base of plants.

Some current pictures....

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/IMG_0321.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/IMG_0323.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/IMG_0325.jpg


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

It appears your plants are healthy. Is the algae you're currently seeing bba? If so, keep in mind the importance of maintaining a good steady level of CO2.

As I mentioned to you in an earlier post, those of us with hard water definitely have it a little harder in the algae control department. If I don't keep algae eaters in the tanks, I will see some filamentous algae form. You just learn to live within the limitations. It sounds like your plants are growing gangbusters, so you're essentially there.


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## latte hiatus (Oct 27, 2008)

Manwithnofish said:


> Still undecided about the DIY external CO2 reactor and inline heater. Scares me to have cut tubing junctions outside the tank as potential sources of major tank drainage. If the tubing came loose from the inline heater or the CO2 reactor, it would ciphen the tank dry. The damage to the house flooring system would be a major disaster. If I came home one day and found water everywhere, that would be the end of me ever having aquariums.
> 
> Just read a thread that says a lot of negative feedback received about Hydor inline heaters....think I'll stick with in the tank Stealth.


I just finished up a DIY CO2 reactor/inline heater over the weekend. After putting it together with PVC cement, I let it cure for a day and ran about 20 gallons of water through it to flush out any remaining solvent. It's running on the output side of my Eheim 2236. I was in a hurry, so it's not pretty - I originally intended to use clear PVC, butthe acrylic tubes available at my local TAP Plastics weren't compatible with the fittings. It was very nice to get the heater and CO2 diffuser out of the tank, and I believe that the reactor is more efficient at dissolving CO2 than the Hagen Elite Mini filter I was using before, since I'm using the same injection rate and the drop checker is slightly more yellowish. The only problem I'm having is that the heater doesn't seem to like being in the position I placed it in - my temperature has gone up by 3 F, and I've had to dial it back quite a bit. It may just require a little fiddling.

Leaks aren't really an issue if you take your time and make sure all the connections are solid, using slip joints with PVC primer/cement whenever possible, lots of teflon tape for threaded connectors, and worm-drive hose clamps for barbs.

The design I used was lifted from AndrewH:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/36257-diy-external-heater-56k-4.html#post528393
The only modifications I made was that instead of the Y at the top for the CO2 barb, I did it the Rex Grigg way and drilled a drill to pull the CO2 tubing through. All the parts were readily available at my local Lowes. The employee in plumbing who helped me cut the 2" PVC pipe into two pieces for transport happened to be into freshwater aquariums, and ended up chatting with him for an hour. The home improvement stores sure have a lot less business these days than they used to.


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## latte hiatus (Oct 27, 2008)

Manwithnofish said:


> What's happening now? Replaced my Zeo-Carb filter bags in the Fluval. Reduced the ferts (KNO3 & KH2PO4) a smidgen. Stopped the Plantex and went with the Flourish.
> 
> Notice that the Algae is making a come back. Mostly growing as thick tuffs (like grass) on the substrate. Plants are so dense, it's difficult to clean food from the root/base of plants.


I've seen the case made for using GAC in the planted aquarium, but IMHO, it just removes trace elements and nutrients that your plants need. It's possible that the Zeo-Carb is making it difficult for your plants to compete, allowing for the algae to make a comeback? Give Purigen a try if you want crystal clear water - I used to be a skeptic, but am now a convert.


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