# Black Thumb needs a little advice



## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

I currently have a 20 gal long community tank in the cycling process with two tiger barbs. I have regular, smooth gravel and am looking for very easy to care for, 4" - 8" tall plants. So far I've looked at Dwarf Hairgrass, Dwarf Anubias, Dwarf Sagittaria, and Java Fern. I've also looked at the possibility of getting a Dwarf Amazon Sword, Anacharis, Micro Sword, and Melon Sword. In looking at all the information I've found I don't know answers to a few questions.
I have very, very hard water. GH and KH both are over 20 according to my test kit. My pH is between 7.5 and 8.2, and I'm lowering it with a new water source. My LFS has similar water, and are able to keep many plants in their setup. Does this mean my water will be okay? Are the plants I've chosen okay in that kind of water?
With a 20 gal tank, do I really need to buy a CO2 gas system? Is the yeast a feasible idea?
So basically I'm wondering how I can set up a simple, lightly planted fish tank. Most of the information seems to be for people who are ready to go all out and get large tanks and lots of plants. I'm a simple girl who would just like some pretty, live plants to take up residence with my fish.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

When you have just a few plants you still have to provide for the nutrition of those plants. If you keep the light intensity down you don't need to provide as much, and you may be able to let the plants feed off the fish poop. For a 20 gallon tank you could grow several plant types with only 30 to 40 watts of compact fluorescent lights, with good reflectors. Or you could use the screw-in spiral power saver bulbs, and use more wattage, perhaps twice that much, and still not have so much light that you need lots of fertilizing.

CO2 is only necessary when you have a lot of light, which makes the plants try to grow faster than the available carbon allows them to grow. Use low light and you can do without the CO2.


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## Jookie (Sep 30, 2003)

Look at some of the tanks by Amano. He often uses ferns and moss. Anyone can grow these. I would recommend starting here, especially if you don't want to change out the gravel. The grasses won't grow in plain gravel for long. You could also grow some of the plants in pots as opposed to the substrate.

The one drawback of ferns, moss, and anubias is that they require patience. Some people can't stand to wait for them to grow. Personally these are my favorite. I am growing bolbitis, narrow leaf java fern, anubias, and taiwan moss.


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

Okay, that's really good to know! Would using the fizzing tablets or the Flourish Excel the Seacham sells be okay to use? I know they don't give a lot of CO2 off, but since I'm not going to be planting a lot will that be good to use?
I'm completely fine with slow growing plants. I don't use that many fake plants and they NEVER grow, so I think I'll be okay waiting. If I were to grow plants in pots, would I have to change the size of pots once the plants get larger? And is there anything else I can use besides those black pots the plants come in?


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

Also, what's a reflector? I've seen this word many times but no definition of what it is.


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## Jookie (Sep 30, 2003)

If you want to grow the above plants, then don't worry about CO2. I think adding a little fluorish (regular, not excel) every now and then wouldn't hurt. It seems to help keep the algae down. 

A reflector is anything that helps to reflect light. Sorta like a mirror. Normal tank hoods don't have reflectors, so a lot of the light gets wasted.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

You have a new tank, you want to have slow growers. Even with low lighting, you are going to see some algae. I'm going to suggest you go ahead and use Excel as a carbon source (not to mention that it will also act as an algae suppressant) in your system. I have hard water as well, and believe it is a little bit more difficult to grow plants in this kind of water than in the softer waters.


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

Jookie said:


> If you want to grow the above plants, then don't worry about CO2. I think adding a little fluorish (regular, not excel) every now and then wouldn't hurt. It seems to help keep the algae down.
> 
> A reflector is anything that helps to reflect light. Sorta like a mirror. Normal tank hoods don't have reflectors, so a lot of the light gets wasted.


Oh, would a reflector be the mirror-like object behind and slightly around both of my lamps in the lighting hood? Next time I go into my LFS I'll be looking at what kind of plant care products they have. I wouldn't be using these things regularly, just as an additive every once in a while. 
Also, I've read that activated carbon is not good for plants, nor is salt in the water. What is a good alternative to activated carbon for my HOB? And is it still possible to use salt, or should I throw the idea out completely?
Thanks to everyone for answering my questions! I really appreciate it and I'm sure my plants will too.


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## isu712 (Feb 8, 2008)

It's my understanding that activated carbon removes organics that could cloud the water. In a planted tank you want those organics because the plants can use them. I think most people get rid of the activated carbon all together, I know I did. Your filter should be fine with just the mechanical and biological filtration (although the plants will take over the role of biological filtration eventually). If your water starts to get cloudy or a brownish tint to it (caused by tannins) you can put the carbon back in to get rid of it. Basically, try it both ways for a while and see what happens and which way you like best.

I second the use of excel. You'll get some slightly better growth that will help keep algae at bay.

Yes, get rid of the salt completely. It will do more harm than good in a planted tank.


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## Jookie (Sep 30, 2003)

No salt, and no carbon needed. The plants become the filter. If you have a mature tank, and a small fish to plant ratio, then you won't have problems with ammonia. I never did understand "aquarium salt." It's supposed to keep the fish healthy, but I can think of several species that wouldn't tolerate much salt in the tank.

If you want a really good book on the basics of a planted tank, then I highly recommend Diana Walstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. It's where I started. Now I'm much more high tech, but this is where I started.


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

Okay, so no activated carbon (unless the tank gets cloudy?) and no salt. *sigh* Too bad I just bought a nice new thing of aquarium salt. Figured if the LFS uses it, the fish would feel more comfortable in the transition. It does make me wonder if they use salt in their planted tanks now though.


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

Okay, I think I found the perfect lighting system, but I'm a little confused as to what "low" and "moderate" mean for lighting levels. Would 33 watts work for both? Or would it be pushing it on moderate? I'm looking at a few rooting plants since I'm thinking of purchasing corys and will add sand for them. The plants I know I want to get so far are anubias, dwarf hairgrass, amazon sword, and java fern. Am I on the right track?


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

With your rooted plants just use fertilizer tabs. Aquarium.com has some great tabs that do a marvelous job for the plants. They are cheaper than the seachem ones but works as well. Many of the sands are inert substrates and really won't add nutrition. Your best bet is fertilizer tabs, unless your going with a natural planted tank with actual dirt capped with sand or gravel.

As for the salt, I imagine that the plants at your LFS are probably not in their tanks long enough to begin their downward turn.

Here are some links for you to read that are basic info. I found them very informative.
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/index.html
http://beginneraquarist.petfish.net/Beginner%20Aquarist/Home.html
http://www.rexgrigg.com/


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## inareverie85 (May 5, 2008)

Lighting levels (from what I know) seem to depend on WPG (watts per gallon). As such, we'd need to know the size of your aquarium (Gallons/Liters) to know what category your 33W lighting system puts you in.
After you determine your lighting and CO2 sources, you can then determine which plants are best suited to your tank.

*Edit: Sorry, I didnt read back, as the older posts were from a month ago. 20 gallons with 33W puts you at about 1.5 WPG, which is generally a low light tank. The PlantFinder on this website is very handy because it allows you to browse plants by ground placement and by lighting needs. Simply click "PlantFinder" near the top of this page and browse by lighting needs.


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

inareverie85 said:


> Lighting levels (from what I know) seem to depend on WPG (watts per gallon). *Edit: 20 gallons with 33W puts you at about 1.5 WPG, which is generally a low light tank.


Is there ever an exception to this rule? I've had two different pet stores tell me that certain fluorescent lights are made specifically for plants and will then require less wattage for the same amount of power. Now this seems to make a little bit of sense since blue light is absorbed easier by plants, but does it equalize? Does more light of a certain color make up for less wattage?


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## inareverie85 (May 5, 2008)

As I am relatively new to aquariums, Im not entirely sure. I do know that higher Kelvin ratings (5000K vs 9325K bulbs) will yield better color in plants, but Ive never read anyone claiming that you need less wattage from a 9325K bulb than a 5000K bulb. 

Generally, your local pet stores won't know what they're doing as far as plants go unless they happen to sell a large variety of legit aquatic plants and the person helping you out actually owns a tank himself. This is just what I gather, since I was advised by two different LFS (PetSmart and PetLand) that I could buy a lighting fixture from them (2x30W fixture at the time) and grow light-intensive plants very successfully. With a 30 gallon tank, I don't assume that's the case, as I'd only be getting 2 WPG. However, maybe lighting deficiencies can be made up for with ample CO2 and a strict fertilizer regimen.

I'm sure someone around here can help better than I can, but I'll just assume that if you want to grow light-intensive plants that you should invest in stronger lighting (higher wattage) when you can.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The only place where that LFS person was right is when you use T5 lights vs. almost anything else. Those are very bright bulbs and most fixtures with those bulbs use individual reflectors for the bulbs. That does make 100 watts of T5 bulbs give as much light as up to 200 watts of other bulbs. But, with that exception, you can't make up for low wattage by choosing the right bulbs. And, even with T5 bulbs you can't do that because you can't put a T5 bulb in a fixture set up for T8 or PC bulbs.


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## cuznhottie (Apr 22, 2008)

hoppycalif said:


> The only place where that LFS person was right is when you use T5 lights vs. almost anything else. Those are very bright bulbs and most fixtures with those bulbs use individual reflectors for the bulbs. That does make 100 watts of T5 bulbs give as much light as up to 200 watts of other bulbs. But, with that exception, you can't make up for low wattage by choosing the right bulbs. And, even with T5 bulbs you can't do that because you can't put a T5 bulb in a fixture set up for T8 or PC bulbs.


Hm, the only T5 fixtures I've seen are well over a hundred dollars. So that's definitely out. I think I'm going to purchase a double tube hood that allows 33 watts. I'm actually on the fence as to whether I really want corys or if I could have otos instead, therefore getting rid of the need for sand completely. Either way I'll still need light for the plants!


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## Jookie (Sep 30, 2003)

Lighting; I think that power compacts are a great balance of price and wattage. I have used them with great success. 
Fish; I have both ottos and cories. Cories don't need sand to be happy, they just need a soft bottom (aquasoil, sand, foreground plants). Just avoid fluorite as it can damage their whiskers. Ottos are great algae eaters and should be in almost every tank. Just make sure you feed them algae wafers since they quickly run out of brown algae to eat.


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