# My Otocinclus are breeding again



## SKSuser

Well, they're back at it, and as promised I'm taking more pictures.
It all began with a water change and the disturbing of the driftwood they like to hide out under when they're not feeding.

I'm uncertain whether this is the same male, as I believe I have two, but I'm fairly sure the female is the same one as the previous time. I first noticed her bloated as well as being constantly out in the open several days ago and thought, "oh boy. here we go again." Sure enough, today I noticed them attempting to embrace. I don't believe she's quite ready, as no eggs are resulting from the encounters. This happened last time. They "practiced" for several days before beginning to actually lay and fertilize.

Here she is. Her belly is much larger than usual.
















Their preferred spot. Last time they congregated on the swords, as they are now, but eventually moved to the underside of an anubias. Now the anubias is under strong current. It'll be interesting to see if they move there this time as well.









Something I noticed this time. Her "ovipositor" as the betta people would call it, is very protruded. Its unlike the button type one on the German Ram I've watched. Hers is very pointy, and there appears to be a trough running down the back of it from where it attaches at her body, creating an appendage whose cross section is rather v shaped. Sorry for this horrid pic of it, they don't remain on the glass very long, as it is merely a waypoint in their game of follow the leader.









She is always the leader by the way, and appears to pick the spots. He follows her around. I saw her attempt to lead him from the glass to a sword plant on another side of the tank. However, he returned to their previous area of the sword plant pictured above. He seemed lost for about 45 seconds, trying the areas where they'd already been, He finally must have smelled her out, as she was lying in an area which he couldn't see. He made a Bee line over there and they started right back up
I don't know why they try so many different places. Perhaps they are looking for the current to be correct, or less lighting. Perhaps they are selecting many suitably places and waiting until egg time to decide if conditions have changed.

Perhaps this time I'll remove the predators without otherwise disturbing the tank, and see if any fry survive. However, I think they'll need a healthy supply of infusoria to really thrive.
As with last time, its a little cold outside to be coming up with green water on such short notice. My hope is that someday they'll do this during the summer when I can adequately feed the resulting fry with the appropriate food.


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## fishman9809

what type of ottos are they? Otocinclus Affinis?


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## Tex Gal

How cool is that?! My Krib babies find enough to eat off the plants in the tank. I never have fed them. When they are old enough they eat what the other fish in the tank eat. I wonder if you remove the predators if you will find the same thing will happen for you. Happy watching!


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## dirrtybirdy

thats pretty awesome!


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## Rob Tetrazona

Please remove other species. You are writing the book on this spawn for other hobbyists!


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## Bert H

Fantastic! I wish mine would do that. If you have a successful spawn and can raise them to adolescence, I'm sure you'll find plenty of willing buyers here on the forum.


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## SKSuser

fishman9809 said:


> what type of ottos are they?


Heh. Thank you for the excellent question. I've always assumed they were affinis, as they came from Petsmartco after my friend ordered that species. Perhaps, given the big box stores' reputation, we should confirm that. Is anybody good at telling by a look. When I tried to get into oto identification, my head started to spin. 
Also, thanks to the rest of you for your kind comments.

Bert,
How many Otos do you have, and is at least one of them larger than the rest given that they're the same age, etc? I'm wondering if the reason more people don't have success at breeding Otos is due to the fact that they don't have a pair. So many people's otos die off. Maybe one sex is much more fragile than the other, or less common to begin with.
Its not like I'm doing anything particularly special, but my results seem to be rather unique. When unique results come from a seemingly normal situation, I get suspicious. I listed my water parameters in the last thread about them breeding, and nobody seemed surprised by them. However, mating was induced by a water change last time as well. Yet, I've done several water changes between the two spawns with no results.
I did have my last old apple snail finally die. That prompted me to do the water change. Perhaps... they reacted to that. My situation is so far from a laboratory setting, that all the variables become discouraging.

Anyway, last evening my wife successfully got the better of the final predator in the tank. He's now terrorizing my guppies in the 20 long.








As you can see from the photo, he was fairly interested in the breeding process but they could care less whether he was there or not. If I'd snapped the picture a second later, we'd have seen some action though, because he got really curious and swam up over that leaf they were above. He was right on top of them before they moved. I'm just glad we got him out quietly.

Throughout the night, I checked on them. The male and female were grouped together on the glass each time I checked. However, they seemed to be resting. I don't believe they mated while I was asleep. When they're in full mating ritual, it gets pretty frantic as you can see in the video on the thread from the other time they bred. Over lunch, I'm sure to be watching them. I'll give an update, and maybe a picture if anything amazing happens.


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## fishman9809

they might be a mix, they have spots and affinis don't. I'm no expert, so don't trust me.


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## JanS

Wow, congrats! Great photos!


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## Fishman123

That's really amazing. I only wish mine will breed in the future, they are such an ideal fish to have.


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## lauraleellbp

Congrats! And those are some awesome photos!


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## SKSuser

Sneaky Sneaky Sneaky!
I haven't seen the male at all over the weekend. The female still seems a little bloated, and has been on the driftwood with the anubias for most of the weekend. I haven't seen any eggs on the anubias, and haven't even tried to search all the sword leaves. There are too many places in the tank I can't visually inspect from the outside, and I refuse to disturb the tank any more than I already have. I suspect they did some or all of their business while I wasn't watching, and/or will continue to do so. When they mated in the fall, I continued to see evidences of mating after the male disappeared, so I'm really not that discouraged.

I'm hoping I didn't scare the male trying to remove the loach and several other needed tasks to make the tank a little safer. This could have caused the female to give up and pass the eggs unfertilized.

I'll keep watching for fry, eggs, and male. Perhaps some, or all, will show up.


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## customdrumfinishes

great pics! will you sell any of the juvis if you have enough? thanks


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## SKSuser

I'm unsure what I would do in the event of a sizable amount of fry. From my first experiences, if I remember correctly, I was able to count seven fry at once. In an article I read, it says that a clutch can be as many as 60 eggs. Obviously, my couple hasn't quite gotten up the nerve to make a full showing.
If I were able to grow more then a suitable amount for my 55g tank to a shippable size, I would probably sell some of them to someone who has more experience than I do, and also the setup to hatch fish, feed them properly, and grow them to adulthood.
If I only end up with an odd one or two, I'll probably keep them in the hopes of turning it into a long term project of breeding them with each other, the parents, or an obliging wild caught Oto.
I'm hoping, like most captive bred fish, any resulting fry would be more adapted to tank life and therefore more ready to mate in a captive setting.

My end goal, and also my goal of sharing as much detail on my experiences as possible, would be that either I or someone who reads my information would start distribution of tank bred Otos. I believe fish bred in small batches at home have a better chance of surviving to adulthood and carrying out meaningful lives.... at least as meaningful as a being with a 3 second attention span can carry out. 


Again, thanks to all for your kind comments.


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## cah925

Very cool, can't wait to hear more about this. I have 2 grow out tanks with a small army of otos only to keep the algae under control. What are your water params?


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## SKSuser

I hesitate to list my parameters right now, as they aren't actually doing anything at the moment. Any readings I get could just confuse matters.
I'm not absolutely sure if it was me disturbing the tank, or some other factor that made them stop breeding.
The parameters could have changed, or a parameter I have no way of testing could be the one that induced them to breed.. I should have tested when they were in full courtship.

I read somewhere that another person (I believe they were on a french forum) who got their Otos to breed was feeding blood worms to the other tank inhabitants. Some speculation was made that the smell of bloodworms in the tank or supplemental diet of protein could induce spawning.
Later it was mentioned that wild caught Otos contain exclusively plant matter in their stomachs. Therefore, I believe the bloodworm claim is erroneous, but I'm mentioning it anyway, as I did feed bloodworms to the loaches when they were in the tank.
I may continue to drop bloodworms in there on occasion. Perhaps the bloodworms provide feed for an algae or microorganism that is of interest to the Oto or its fry.
Any thoughts on this?

Back to your question Cah925, I did test the water when they were breeding the first time. The link to the thread about the first spawn can be found in the blue letters in my previous posts in this thread.


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## ranchwest

If possible, could you also check the barometric pressure?

I once had a tornado pass over my house and a little while later I had several species breeding, including corydoras and keyhole cichlids. It was the first time the keyholes had bred. I don't know if it had to do with the barometric pressure, but I've always thought that it was possible.


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## SKSuser

I dunno man. Its interesting that it was gloomy, dropping pressure, and cloudy out both days they started. I remember the 23rd, we had some stuff blown around at our house, and I woke up at 6:30am to a cloud just south of me that looked like it was trying to hook. Its still a little early for tornado season, but it had that feeling.

I wouldn't have thought to look back in the almanac to last year's weather. Now that I think about it, I remember last fall it was too cloudy to get some infusoria going fast.

Maybe I'll do my next water change during severe weather and see what happens.


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## ranchwest

Thanks, looks like this might be worth monitoring.


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## cah925

Thanks, I found the link. Your params are somewhat similar to mine. That pressure thing is quite interesting. This area of Fl doesn't usually get severe drops in pressure unless it's hurricane season. I'll start watching them later this year when the hurricanes start up again. :knock knock: hopefully we don't get hit head on by one.


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## SKSuser

Sorry for the thread resurrection. 









Anyway,
Last night I topped off the tank. Today it is storming. My wife called to let me know that the female Oto is out and about doing her usual thing. Ranchwest's supposition may hold some water... storm water that is. :mrgreen:

Hey, if I'm going to drag out an old thread, I might as well put a cliché or two in it while I'm at it.


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## natdc2

Heh. It ok to drag out this old thread, because an Oto being pregnant is totally awesome.


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## Tex Gal

SKSuser - you have to make sure you keep us updated if you get any fry... We're all waiting to hear when your the proud parent!


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## lauraleellbp

Actually drops in barometric pressure is a common spawning trigger for many tropical fish, this typically coincides with monsoon season.

www.otocinclus.com is a great site to check out; I hope your efforts are successful!


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## ranchwest

lauraleellbp said:


> Actually drops in barometric pressure is a common spawning trigger for many tropical fish, this typically coincides with monsoon season.
> 
> www.otocinclus.com is a great site to check out; I hope your efforts are successful!


Thanks for that confirmation. I've seen it happen many times.


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## SKSuser

lauraleellbp said:


> www.otocinclus.com is a great site to check out; I hope your efforts are successful!


Yes. Its a great site. He's told me that he plans to update the site and fix broken links etc. for a summer project. The update may even include some of my awesome pictures. ;-P

Nothing doing for the happy couple. The weather remains cloudy in my area. I may get the urge to do a water change and see what happens. Recently I've had to put some algae wafers in. The water changes have been clearing out my algae "problem." Wish I could say the same for my other tanks. :heh:


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## yum

Does anyone have pics of otto fry? I spotted a tiny mysterious fry in the tank last night and I'm not sure if it's from the ottos or the pygmy cories. it was about the size of a grain of rice, slightly translucent with dark stripes running vertically, segmenting the body from front to back. the striping is what is throwing me off since my ottos have the standard lateral striping from nose to tail and the pygmy species i have is hastatus which is not striped, but all silver with a spot on their tail.


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## Bk828

I also had a female who was carrying eggs, she was just extra plump.. But in the end no babies 

Wish you luck


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## SKSuser

Sorry I took so long to respond. I was in Chicago visiting the Shed Aquarium. (They had some algae outbreaks too, so I don't feel as bad.)
yum,
I believe you are describing an Otocinclus fry. I couldn't tell you which of your species had the fry. The fry I experienced had vertical stripes, and other odd spots which they either grow out of, or they become covered up by another color layer in the adult scales.
These are the best fry pictures I managed to get. They are from the first spawn. Unfortunately, none of them survived to adulthood. They are blown up pretty bad and very pixley, but I think you'll get the idea.















The first one is of one that is at least several hours old, perhaps as much as a day. His size can be determined by the veins on the sword plant. The second is a brand new hatchling. His body size was smaller than the size of a sand grain (not including the tail.)

Again, thank you all for your kind comments.


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## yum

How did our fair city treat you? Did you enjoy any deep dish pizza while you were here?

Thanks for the pics. I've been able to spot the fry again which is an amazing feat in my jungle of a tank. It seems to like a certain spot up front in the mornings so if I'm lucky, I can catch a glimpse of him when I first turn on the lights. It's really hard to tell if it's a pygmy cory or a otto. I'm thinking it's developing cory characteristics but now that I look at your pics, I'm not so sure. It's now at least 8 days since I first spotted him/her and it's gotten a good deal bigger; probably the length of 2 grains of rice? How long did your fry survive? Were they in a breeding tank or in with the general population?


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## SKSuser

Chicago was very nice, thank you. We took the train with some friends which gave us plenty of time to play cards and Nintindo on the way. The japanamation conference was right across from our hotel, so there were furries, warriors, red mages, and clowns all over the place. Purely coincidence that we were there at the same time, but it was fun to put our feeble anime knowlege to the test and try to guess who they all were anyway. We had a great pizza at Giordano's. The Water Tower was ritzy. The Shed was awesome. The headless sculptures were creepy. I plan to go back.

Anyway,
The spawn which this thread mostly talks about did not survive past the mating ritual. I noticed them performing their embrace, but never saw any eggs. With all my sword plants in there, I could not see every surface without disturbing things.

In my first breeding which has a thread somewhere else on the boards (and a link from this one somewhere on page 2), the fry survived for several days. Perhaps a week if they were lucky. I had some pesky yoyo loaches which were too hard to catch without stirring up the rest of the tank.

Over all, my attempts to raise them to adulthood have been unsuccessful... I think. You see, I put two oto cats into that tank, and one time while moving the driftwood around I could swear that there were three darting around. Perhaps my imagination though.

You should take some pictures just in case its not a cory. There are very few examples of Oto fry on the internet, and most are even worse quality than my shots. I have yet to see a juvie picture, or better yet a catelouge of an Oto's development. Yours may be the first.


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## Zapins

Hmm, interesting thread! I want to breed my otos but unfortunately I can't change the barometric pressure haha (if that is in fact what causes them to breed.


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## apistomaster

In a heavily planted tank with no potential predators, any Otocinclus that hatch should have no trouble finding enough foods until they become large enough to eat the same foods used on the adults.

One of the reasons Otocinclus spawns are not well documented and tend to be incidental is that few people dedicate a heavily planted and well established tank just for Otocinclus. The easiest way to induce a planned spawn is to skip normal water changes for a month then resume making large frequent water changes, preferably with RO water, daily to simulate the dry then wet season. The fresh water should be cool enough to cause a drop of 5 to 10*F below the normal temperature. Allow the heat to rise back to normal temperatures. Continue to repeat this cycle until they spawn. If they are ready to spawn, this is when they will do it. It is not necessary to remove the breeders. They won't bother their eggs or fry. Very few people try to breed them because they do not cost much and they fail to provide Otocinclus with the proper conditions and sizable groups. They are much easier to breed when kept in groups of 10 or 20. It is very rewarding to breed and raise a species few other have regardless of how inexpensive they are.


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## SKSuser

Wow!
Awesome information. Thank you apistomaster. I'm assuming by your comment that you've successfully bred them. Any pictures of the proceedings?

How do you keep 20 Otos fed? What size tank do they require when kept in this number? Do potential predators include dithers such as some of the quieter tetras, or shrimp? If those tankmates are unacceptable, what else could you keep in the tank?

I'm assuming I should run with no filter or powerhead as the babies could get sucked up. Am I correct, or do they prefer a strong current? For me, they always seemed to mate and finally place their eggs in the exhaust wash from my filter. so its a toss up. I guess the best thing to do in that regard might be to put some filter floss over the intake and then watch day and night to make sure they don't get stuck to it.

They are one of my favorite fish. I think I could stand looking at basically empty tank if it were full of Otocinclus.  They seem to "just sit there," but if you're still when you're around the tank they get interesting and do funny things that amuse me.

I love em!


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## yum

I'm sorry to hear you've had such troubles with your otto fry, SKSuser. But glad to hear you enjoyed Chicago! Just so you know when you come back, we take our hot dogs as seriously as we do our pizza. So, beware not to put ketchup on your hotdog and make sure you get genuine Vienna hotdogs.  Next time try Gino's East deep dish pizza and order the "sausage patty". They are the only place that I know of that does this style. Normal pizzas have just chunks of sausage, when you order the patty at Gino's they cover the ENTIRE TOP of the pizza with a sheet of sausage. *DROOL* OMG so good. Ahem... back on topic...

Ok, so I have some exciting news... at least to me it was really exciting. I spotted the fry again and this time a 2nd as well. The odd thing is this one was half the size of the other. I would have thought that if they hatched at the same time, they would be the same size.

Either way, I'm still not sure they are ottos. Their bodies are still translucent but I think the lil mouths have the barbels of a cory forming.

I tried to take some pics with my point and shoot digital but it's too blurry. I even tried using a magnifying glass. Alas, all blurry.

Apistomaster, you know a lot about fish indeed!


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## yum

Ok, I fiddled with my camera enough to get a decent shot of the fry. I took this shot in combo with a magnifying glass 

I think it's a cory hastatus and not an otto, especially since I saw it schooling with the adult cories for a short time last night.


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## ray-the-pilot

My feeling is that you need lots of algae for Oto’s to spawn and grow. With that element, breeding and rearing is rather simple.

I’ve been struggling with keeping algae under control since I started my aquarium back in early April. I purchased 6 Oto’s strictly for algae control and when one died I bought two more. 

I’ve been suffering with bad substrate (Eco Complete) and trying to bring my pH and KH down. I’ve been doing 10% water changes (using RO water) every other day. You would think this was bad for my plants and fish but that doesn’t seem to be the case. My neon’ and Oto’s frequently spawn. And the plants are starting to get weedy. The problem is purely aesthetic with lots of hair and staghorn algae.

When I purchased the Oto’s, you couldn’t tell the males from the females but now anyone can distinguish from the plumpness which are the females. 

I took two of the Oto eggs on a plant leaf and placed it in an open plastic container that floats on the surface of my tank. The eggs hatched in 48 hours and I started feeding them algae scrapings from my tank. I tried using algae tablets but the babies ignore them. The algae continued to grow in the container so I haven’t been feeding them anything after about 3-4 days. All I do is change the water in the container a couple of time each day. About 10 days later I took 2 more eggs on a leaf and placed it in the container. When they hatched, I realized that the first two had doubled in size in less than two weeks. I’ve also noticed some baby Oto’s darting around in my community tank. 

I have a 52 gal corner aquarium. KH is 3, pH is 7.6, phosphates are 0.1, NO3 is 7.


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## Tex Gal

Ray-the-pilot how about some pxs?


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## ray-the-pilot

*to TexGal*

Well, I wouldn't say that I don't know exactly what I'm doing!

I set up my first aquarium in the 1960's and met William Innes way back then. I've had several different reincarnations as an aquarium enthusiast and this is the latest. My goal was to set up a S. American biotype featuring Discus in a planted aquarium. It is the centerpiece of my home office. I am a chemist by profession; so water chemistry is not a mystery to me. I admit that my last previous aquarium was disassembled and sold around 1990; so my current knowledge is weak. That being said, I do know sick fish/plants from healthy ones and I have a decided advanced aesthetic sense for aqua-art. 
I suppose that your purpose for asking for pics is to verify what I wrote? Well tell me how to take a picture of a baby Oto in a beaker? I have my own stereo microscope and looked at the eggs on the leaf. You could see the babies wriggling in the eggs and could easily identify them as Oto's. I would have identified the neon's as well but those eggs dropped to the bottom of my aquarium and were probably eaten by my Axelrod Cats. 
BTW There are a lot of pictures and details about Oto's breeding on the Internet. I'm not very current on this but I think that most of the Oto's for sale today come from SE Asia where they are breed commercially. I could be wrong about this and I often am but you might want to check it out? If I'm wrong tell me! 
Now I admit that for an aesthetically pleasing tank, algae is bad but for the reproduction of an algae eater it may be essential.

BTW the pictures of your tanks are really great. Good job!


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## Tex Gal

Ray-the-pilot I only wanted to see the pictures because it fascinates me to see the little guys! I have trouble taking pxs of my tank with the plants - forget about the swimming fish - much less teeny tiny ones!  The best I've done with egg layers is danios and kribs. My pxs leave a lot to be desired!

Sounds like you've been doing fish as long or longer than I have. Of course, I'm not the chemist so I still don't get the water thing. I do the best I can.... Acid? Alkalinity? Buffering agent???  .... and how does the CO2 _REALLY_ bring the pH down?..... (ok.... I'm getting a headache now!)

If you were talking about my tank - thanks for the kind words. I take it as high praise from someone as experienced as yourself. :mrgreen:


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## ray-the-pilot

*My Bad*

I misinterpreted your signature as a comment on my post. That set me off on my previous experience post. After seeing today's post I realize my stupidity. Sorry about that. 

And your tanks do look very nice. :clap2:


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## Zapins

Hey, Tex just noticed you mentioned CO2/pH etc... and how does it all work?

All an acid is is simply a substance that releases H+ atoms into a liquid. Any substance that gives off H+ atoms (or more properly called ions - due to the lack of an electron that makes it positively charged). There are many kinds of acids as you can imagine. Carbon dioxide lowers the pH (pH is the unit for measuring how much H+ atoms are in a solution) by combining with water and releasing H+ ions.

The reaction goes like this: 
H2O + CO2 <--> H2CO3 <--> H(+) + HCO3(-) <--> 2H(+) + HCO3(2-)

Water reacts with carbon dioxide (CO2) reversibly making carbonic acid (H2CO3) (this means that carbonic acid can also break apart and make CO2 and H2O). The carbonic acid then reacts further and breaks apart releasing some H(+) ions. Carbonic acid is diprotic so both hydrogen atoms attached to the carbonic acid can dissociate (split off the molecule) making 2 free floating molecules of H(+) and a molecule of CO3(2-). These reactions all bounce back and forth reacting and un-reacting until the CO2 gas finds its way to the surface of the water and leaves the water, or until the H+ ions are trapped by binding to something else (like a buffer or base). When this happens the reactions outlined above can't take place in the water and the pH rises because there are no more H(+) ions being made. This is why pH drops when more CO2 is added and why it goes up when CO2 is lost.

Since acids are essentially molecules that release H+ ions into a solution bases do the opposite, pulling H+ ions out the water. A base is really any molecule that accepts H+ ions.

Buffers are molecules that change the pH of the solution (absorb or release H+ ions until a desired level is reached). Buffers usually are molecules that contain both H+ releasing areas and H+ accepting areas (in other words buffers are both acids and bases at the same time).

Alkalinity is basically a measure of how much buffering capacity the water has. In other words it measures the amount of all buffers in the water. So in the practical world if you have a low alkalinity then the water's pH will change quickly and be unstable if an acid or base is added to the water. This is because the amount of buffering chemicals in the water is too small to fully neutralize the acid or base that was just added.


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## ray-the-pilot

*My Bad 2*

I guess I must have clicked somewhere I wasn't supposed to? My post above seems to have disappeared.

I misinterpreted your signature as a comment on my first post. So I went into my experience post. When I read your answer, I realized my mistake. Anyway I wanted to apologize for that pompous post.

Also your tanks are very nice!


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## nickdu

Are these otto eggs? I just got about 40 on my s. Repens.
Attachment...


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