# On the hunt for carpet foreground plants



## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

Hello! I'm new here on this forum. I did searches, but this is one of those cases where I could not find what I was really looking for so here it goes:

A little background on me. I've been in the aquarium hobby for 17 years. I've kept just about everything that can live well in a glass box. I also run an aquarium maintenance business for extra cash to support my addiction to the hobby. Up until the past couple of years I had never seriously tried live plants, but now I am hooked. (no pun intended) 

Do you guys know where I could get any "carpet" style foreground type plants that will do well at 2.5 watts per gallon.

I would like to try Glosso, but I think it has to have a really high level of lighting. Plus my tank is 24" deep.  I know that's a tall order, but there has to be something that grows _out_ instead of _up_.

Also, what are some good background plants that grow fast, but does not shed a bunch of leaves making the tank messy.

I'm thinking stem plants of some sort, but you guys are the experts...

Thanks,
JTL


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Taller crypts may work well for your background (_C. crispatula_ 'balansae', _C. spiralis_... ) and _Marsilea spp_. may work for you foreground carpet. Even in my shaded areas the Marsilea will grow well and spread, just not as thick.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh, I forgot to tell ya this is a 180 gallon tank. As with my smaller planted tanks I will be dosing almost all of the Excel line from Seachem. 

I don't plan to add a pressureized CO2 system if I can help it. My small tanks do nicely without CO2 with just the Excel products as the source of carbon


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Elatine triandra, and Hemianthus micranthemoides, though they will require some pruning to keep them sod-like. HC (Hemianthus callitrichoides) will also probably work. 

With 2.5wpg on a 180 gal, I wouldn't rule out Glosso. 

You'll be going through TONS of Excel and other liquid ferts if you use them here. Out of curiosity, why are you going that route?


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm curious as well to the excel only. In the long run that will be quite expensive for 180 gallons. If you do go Excel and it works for you, please post a journal to share your experiences with us  

back to the original question - you can also try Eleocharis parvula - it may grow a little taller (2inches) under lower intensity lighting but is a small enough hairgrass to use as a true foreground in my opinion....


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

Bert H said:


> You'll be going through TONS of Excel and other liquid ferts if you use them here. Out of curiosity, why are you going that route?


Well more money and upkeep/monitoring/refilling are the main reasons why I don't want a CO2 system. Also, there are so many "bells and whistles" to a CO2 system. I simply don't like the way it looks. Seems like a bunch of clutter to me.

This tank is out in the middle of a room as a room divider, so I only have one end (24" x 25")of it to put equipment. I already have 10 plugs on two power strips - 3 lights, 3 fans, 3 pumps, one cable heating system. I have all the cords in that black slit tubing for neatness. I just don't want to make it more complicated than it has to be. I like the simplicity of the Excel line.

I certainly have not ruled CO2 out, but I'm going to see if I can get away without having one for now.

I just might keep a journal of this tank. That's a cool idea. It is, after all, the biggest project I've attempted in my 17 years with the hobby.

Thanks for the responses. I'll look into the species you mentioned.

JTL


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

You really need to reconsider pressurized co2. With the amount of Excel you will be using (45ml 3 times a week) you will run through a 2L bottle every 3-4 months and at ~$30 a 2L in a year you could have bought a nice co2 system and had better success with your plants.

Marselia Minuta would be my choice for a carpet plant, I love it!


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## uglybuckling (Jun 28, 2004)

It's more initial money for a CO2 system, but I get refills of my CO2 tanks for $5-$10 at the local welding store. If you get a regulator with a solenoid built in, you can actually wire it up to a timer and pay very little attention to it, aside from initial adjustment and refilling the tank every 6 months or so. If you want to, you can use an in-line CO2 reactor built from a piece of PVC pipe ( http://www.rexgrigg.com/diy-reactor.htm ), which will not add a diffuser to the tank because it will be near the filter. I also really like Rex's check valves and his brass version of the washers that go between the CO2 tank and the regulator (the cheapie neoprene ones always seem to leak for me).

For a foreground plant, I would go with HM (as was recommended above) and a good bit of trimming at first to convince it to grow sideways. HC likes a little more light, and I've never had very good luck with it in tanks without injected CO2. With glosso, there are theories about adjusting photoperiod (12-14h) to compensate for lower wpg lighting. This can obviously lead to algae problems and is a debate for another thread (I think there's one around somewhere, if memory serves).


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

What do you guys think about this system?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9933

Like I said, I have not ruled it out at all. Chances are I will eventually break down and get one of these systems. _When _I might do this?...Just not sure yet.

So *bsmith782*, how tall does this Marselia Minuta get and is it a fast grower? I've read that a similar species - Marsilea drummondii - grows to 1 ft. I'm looking for something that grows to 3 to 4" max.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

I personally wouldnt get the drs system because you can piece together a much better quality system for less $$$. Read this thread. It is very informative and will give you enough info to make an educated decision.

The Marselia Minuta gets to maybe 1 1-2" at most. Here it is in my 5.5g tank. Not the best pic but you get the idea.











Jlanders001 said:


> What do you guys think about this system?
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9933
> 
> ...


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Believe me, you'll be much happier with pressurized, and definitely cheaper in the long run. Orlando at Green Leaf Aquariums, has an excellent little write-up also about how to hook up CO2 systems here. The pH controller is an extra, by no means necessary. And as far as equipment, you don't have to have anything at all extra showing in your tank if you use an in-line reactor - it's all hidden in your cabinet.

I would also recommend you looking at the forum for large tanks.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

bsmith782 said:


> I personally wouldnt get the drs system because you can piece together a much better quality system for less $$$.


So what Regulator and solenoid would you go with? Are there cheaper ph controllers than the one on Drs Foster/Smith?


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

What do you think of this system?

http://cgi.ebay.com/SMS122-PH-CONTR...286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:15|39:1|240:1318


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

I am not versed on PH controllers at all and didnt realize you were wanting one. I will not tell you to skip the controll some use them with great success and saftey records. But, I do not use one and have had good sucess with no issues. 

I bought my regulator which is a dual stage Victor for ~$50 on ebay, my solenoid (turns on/off the co2 flow that is set on a timer to sync with my lights) ~$30, 5lb co2 tank from a yard sale I found on craigslist for $10, bubble counter I got on a planted tank forum for ~$5 and a Swagelok needle valve that retais for $250 for $35 on the same planted site from a member. It took me about 3 months to piece this all together so by no means was it a quick affair but if you have time you can put together a system that will last longer then you will for less.

So its pretty much automat


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## clearleaf (Oct 4, 2008)

All good advice above. Alternately you can look into 'el natural' setups, which have just as much established knowledge and success among adopters, http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/ threads therein.

However, generally 'carpet' plants require higher lighting to grow horizontally and higher lighting is more difficult to pull off in a non-CO2 setup. I think.


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## Fishtory (Jan 21, 2009)

I have this system. It was quick, relatively easy to set up, and it appears to be idiot proof.


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## crystalview (Mar 9, 2008)

I love the look of Utricularia graminifolia (UG)
Tropica has some good info on it. I love the pic near the bottom

http://www.tropica.com/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=731


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

I went ahead and got the system on E-bay that I linked to in an earlier post. I did not need the reactor that came with Fishtory's system because I have a large cylindrical bio-filter the will act ass a CO2 reactor also.

One more question: 

Should I run my CO2 line at the input of my canister or at the output in between the canister and my bio-filter/reactor?

Does concentrated CO2 have any negative effects on Nitrosomonas/Nitrobacter bacteria?

JTL


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

Forgot to say thanks for all of your responses. You guys have been a great help. Keep 'em coming!


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

I use to do UG but they get very missy after a long time. How about mini Micro sword? The one that is much shorter than the kind we can see in our LFS. A few amano's layout in the 2008 catalog was using one of those. I am looking for those as well.


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## crystalview (Mar 9, 2008)

What do you mean by messy? I know to keep it looking good you have to trim it. Which I thought to do like I trim all my plants. I use the Phython vac and cut and suck.
Or do you mean messy in a different way?



armedbiggiet said:


> I use to do UG but they get very missy after a long time. How about mini Micro sword? The one that is much shorter than the kind we can see in our LFS. A few amano's layout in the 2008 catalog was using one of those. I am looking for those as well.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

I heard from a guy that used to own a pet store that there is some chemical that micro swords produce that hinders growth of other types of plants. Not sure which ones if any.

Anyone else hear of this?


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## Ben Belton (Mar 14, 2004)

crystalview said:


> I use the Phython vac and cut and suck.


OK, I'm curious. What? 

BTW I've used automatic and manual CO2. I like automatic, but in the end, manual is so much easier.


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## crystalview (Mar 9, 2008)

Ben Belton said:


> OK, I'm curious. What?


Not sure what is curious but I think this may answer it.
My son holds the vacuum syphon hose near the plants while I trimming. I find this helpful at collecting all the stray plant bits. I do moss, fissiden so UG will be the next plant I trim. Big leaf plants are easy to remove but I hate the tiny trimmings.


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## Ben Belton (Mar 14, 2004)

OK, that explains it.


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

2.5wpg over a 180g is a high light tank, depending on the quality of the light source.

You should be able to grow any darn thing you want to, and I mean _anything_, if the light fixture quality is good.

I've done Eleocharis Parvula (dwarf haigrass), Crypt Parva, Lillaeopsis sp. (the dwarf lillaeopsis I think biggiet is referring to wanting to find above), and am quite sure I'd have zero issues with glosso, HC, etc - and I run a lot less than 2.5 wpg, just using TEK fixtures.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

My light fixtures are 3 150W from Fishneedit.com with the 8000k bulbs that came with it. These are my first MH fixtures so I don't really know if they are really good or not. They seem nice enough and the price was right.

Anyway, I did plant some Glosso, but it is not taking off like I'd hoped. Actually its not doing much of anything. 

I'm having a bit of an algae problem right now. Brown algae going on the plants and green algae on the glass. I'm still waiting for my CO2 tank/system to arrive. Is there anything I can do about it until I get my CO2 system to help the plants starve out the algae?

BTW the tank has maybe 125 long strands of Anacharis, a few swords and a big heap of java moss at present.


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## crystalview (Mar 9, 2008)

diatoms take time and oto's to get ahead of it. I would rub it off the more unsightly places. Do you know what kind of green algae? GSA, GDA or what? I got some nerites to work on the GSA until I can get my light right and the EI dosing to match.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

Not sure what the green algae is called. It is just a thin sheet of bright green that only grows on the glass. It is easy to wipe off if that helps identify. 

I have a small UV (9 watt) sterilizer running to help for now or at least extend cleaning times.

How does everyone here feel about algecide designed for tanks with live plants and fish? Of course it would just be a short term fix and treating the symptom and not the cause, but is there any down side to useing something like this?

JTL


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

This algae also grows on the substrate in some places.


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## crystalview (Mar 9, 2008)

http://www.gwapa.org/articles/algae/

I use a mag lense to look at the algae it is easier for me to see the differences in GSA to GDA.

I have a 18w UV, that I run 24/7. It is great for GW and bacteria and such but a lot of Algaes are not free floating.

If you increase your fast growers and stem plants that should out compete the algae. I also have a new tank so I have the GSA. I increased my PO4 and reduced the light out put by half. I am getting the clubs PAR today so maybe I can see what the real light amount is through out the tank.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

It's GDA. I can tell now.

Of course I'd rather treat the cause instead of the symptom, but until I can get my CO2 system up and running I don't have much of a choice. 

The seller that I bought my tank from is screwing me around with shipping. First he gives me a Fed-ex tracking number that I can find no information about, then a week later he tells me he is "re-shipping" my tank via UPS! Oh! and no UPS tracking number with it this time.

People...Gaaaa!


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## crystalview (Mar 9, 2008)

I am not very patient either. My tank crashed along my budjet so now I have ROAK plant (thankgoodness) But I really want my new tank so I understand your problem. I also miss my discus, and have new tank algae. So you either get to ignore and wait till your algae dies in its cycle or try to treat it with antibiotics (which don't always work).

GDA: Description Forms on the glass creating a dusty appearance across the glass. Sometimes so bad you can't see into the tank. 
Cause Low CO2. Low nutrients. Quite common on new setups. 
Removal Easily removed with a magnetic glass scraper or similar. Often reappears very quickly. Allow the algae to run its full cycle by leaving it well alone for 3 weeks. It may become unsightly but just bear with it. Then scrape it all off and do a large water change. Sometimes requires a second treatment to fully clear and leaving it for 4 weeks. Recommended to slightly reduce dosing during treatment. 
Ok we both have whined our way through this post :smokin:


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I was reading a similar page on GDA while you were posting this.

JTL


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## Nevermore (Mar 26, 2007)

Jlanders001 said:


> I heard from a guy that used to own a pet store that there is some chemical that micro swords produce that hinders growth of other types of plants. Not sure which ones if any.
> 
> Anyone else hear of this?


Was the word he used 'allelochemical'? It's thought by some that some that this can be an issue in growing aquatic plants. I've never experienced this but it could be true. I haven't heard of micro swords producing this.


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## Jlanders001 (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't think he used that word, but I'm pretty sure that "allelochemical" was what he was talking about. Now that I did a search on the word to see what is was exactly - Its a kind of general term that encompasses the chemicals produced by plants and animal that affect (good or bad) the relationship of any form of symbiosis.

Ya learn something new everyday!

Are there any other plants that do this beside Micro swords?


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## Nevermore (Mar 26, 2007)

From Diana Walstad's book _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, allelopathy has been found in 97 species of aquatic plants. The allelochemicals don't always inhibit other plants however, sometimes it's algae. If you're concerned about a particular plant's allelopathy, you might go to the El Natural forum and ask her.


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