# Constant melting... :/



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Ok so in my 65, I just stopped constant algae growth... Co2 is PERFECTLY where I want it... 

Ok so here is my issue now;

Any plant I put in there (exadurating of course) such as limno mini, melts within 1 week. 
And so far it hasn't come back. of course I have backup plants of these I grow emersed now so I can add more whenever I want, but they just melt! All my limno, DBT, myrio (WHICH DOES GREAT IN HARD WATER SUPPOSEDLY), stellata, crypts, you name it. Melts. And so far after 2 weeks of melting nothing has come back.

Only thing in there that is trying to grow right now, is Furcata and purple C.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Maybe try slowly acclimating them to being submerged?

Would also wonder if growth hormone might not encourage them to persevere and establish.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

How would you slowly acclimate them? float them on top of the water?


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Don't know myself, sorry. Seem to remember reading some mention of it in the emersed culture forum (probably years ago).

If I had to go just on speculation I'd probably flood the emersed cultures over a period of time or something to allow submerged growth to start while the plant is already well-established, instead of making the plants adapt and establish at the same time. Just speculation though.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Decided to float a couple as an experiment ill update this in a while.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

This is really starting to piss me off. Excuse the language.

So I decided to do an experiment. I floated some plants (ludwigia arcuata, L. Repens) in the fluval V dirted I have, with a fluval aquasky light SAME PARAMETERS, and until they got 1" of new growth I just let them float. 
So now those are planted
Did the same thing (same plants and method) with the same plants I put in the 65, but ALL THE FLOATING PLANTS MELTED! 

Still having trouble with the inline diffuser I bought, I'm finding it Very difficult to tell how much co2 is actually being dissolved within how much of a time period if that makes sense. All I'm seeing is that the Co2 just builds up a LIMITED amount of pressure on/in the inline diffuser, and the inline diffuser diffuses the Co2 at that max pressure rate, which is unknown to me as to how much that is!!!!
UUUGH! when I had my glass diffuser in there the Co2 levels WERE FINE and Perfect! but since switching to inline this has been a huge pain in the booty! 

In the 65 I also did another little experiment, and planted at LEAST 10 stems of (each) ludwigia repens, and rotala indica, Ludwigia has started to melt, so far 2 of 15 (lets say) stems have melted, rotala indica hasn't done anything. Its been 2 days since I planted those.

Does ANYONE have any insight at ALL on this issue? I need a PAR meter to tell Just how much light I'm getting at the substrate but I cant get one.... 

This is killing me. And my wallet. maybe its the light spectrum? the lights/bulbs are all 6500k HO T5's MADE for hydroponics, which I think would have no ill effect on the plants related to spectrum...


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi DutchMuch,

The trick to transitioning from emersed growth to submerged growth is growing emersed in "very high humidity". That way the leaves of the plants will have a very, very thin cuticle layer.

*I did a blog on transitioning emersed plants in 2012* complete with pictures of the plants during transition. The species wereogostemon erectus, Limnophila 'Wavy', Hygrophila lancea, Cryptocoryne wendtii, Ludwigia 'Red'.

Below the blog is a second blog about the 'Peptents' I use for my emersed 'starters'.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Thank you SA, 
for the link and information. I am already doing another experiment with that method involved, but even so, the melting should Fully kill the plant right? and they should come back?

As I said in my 65 I used the same plants as in my fluval, fluval is thriving, and 65 is melting all to bits. 

but I put some old glass lids from other tanks on my emersed setups, and added the humidity gauge so I'm watching that. 90% right now.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Should add that the ones in the 65 and fluval now were grown in about 85% constant humidity.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Might seem obvious, but have you tested the water to verify that the parameters are actually the same still?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

The PH is the same, and hardness and calcium, things like that. Since their water source is the same.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

DutchMuch said:


> Thank you SA,
> for the link and information. I am already doing another experiment with that method involved, but even so, the melting should Fully kill the plant right? and they should come back?
> 
> As I said in my 65 I used the same plants as in my fluval, fluval is thriving, and 65 is melting all to bits.
> ...


Hi DutchMuch,

'Melting' may or may not kill a plant. It will likely kill stem plants if the stem 'melts' along with the leaves. If the stem still maintains some some living material it may sprout new side shoots. As for plants, like Cryptocorynes, if the leaves melt but the rhizome still is healthy (and hopefully a few roots) it may come back. I have had crypts stay 'dormant' for several weeks before a new leaf appears after a plant melts.

I assume you have checked ammonia levels and the 65 is no longer cycling?


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

DutchMuch said:


> The PH is the same, and hardness and calcium, things like that. Since their water source is the same.


Not using different faucets or anything for your water?

I melted a tank when the water from my bath tub inexplicable became extremely alkaline compared to my kitchen water.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi DutchMuch,
> 
> 'Melting' may or may not kill a plant. It will likely kill stem plants if the stem 'melts' along with the leaves. If the stem still maintains some some living material it may sprout new side shoots. As for plants, like Cryptocorynes, if the leaves melt but the rhizome still is healthy (and hopefully a few roots) it may come back. I have had crypts stay 'dormant' for several weeks before a new leaf appears after a plant melts.
> 
> I assume you have checked ammonia levels and the 65 is no longer cycling?


Thanks again SA for the information your giving,
I knew about the cycle of melting from emersed to submersed, or even the transitioning from 1 tank to the other. But I worded my sentence wrong there, my apologies, I meant in my system, I have some Aromatica (example) mini and it melted off within 2-4 days. It hasn't come back, this has happened to many stems if not all by now. I'm just trying to find the reason why this is happening. To me its very interested and confusing, as well as frustrating! lol. Its a mystery to me! My guess is something is up with the light or Co2, substrate is PFS so I doubt that is a problem. I need to measure the PAR of the light but I don't have an extra 300$, not even an extra 50$. I'm stuck in the most sophisticated puzzle which lies in between a rock and a hard place!


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## rs18alpha (Aug 13, 2017)

Staurogynes repens turning grey , not melting. Any Idea on this??


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

picture would help.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

DutchMuch said:


> Thanks again SA for the information your giving,
> I knew about the cycle of melting from emersed to submersed, or even the transitioning from 1 tank to the other. But I worded my sentence wrong there, my apologies, I meant in my system, I have some Aromatica (example) mini and it melted off within 2-4 days. It hasn't come back, this has happened to many stems if not all by now. I'm just trying to find the reason why this is happening. To me its very interested and confusing, as well as frustrating! lol. Its a mystery to me! My guess is something is up with the light or Co2, substrate is PFS so I doubt that is a problem. I need to measure the PAR of the light but I don't have an extra 300$, not even an extra 50$. I'm stuck in the most sophisticated puzzle which lies in between a rock and a hard place!


Hi DutchMuch,

Are you aware that an APC member offers a loaner PAR Meter at no cost other than shipping and insurance? Contact @hoppycalif here on APC. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/131882-fs-rent-apogee-par-meter.html


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Yea I know hoppy very well, 
I cant afford the 250 insurance. Plus I don't really know how that works (I just got my first debit card not to long ago lol, new to the financial game and words, whatnot)...


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## rs18alpha (Aug 13, 2017)

Her's a picture of the Staurogyne repens it's the one in the back that turned grey and the leaves fell off. Also, check the one next to the right of the rock.
The tank is a little over 2 weeks old. i just set it up for my Niece.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

That would be melting. Its a usual transition thing in your case.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

DutchMuch said:


> Yea I know hoppy very well,
> I cant afford the 250 insurance. Plus I don't really know how that works (I just got my first debit card not to long ago lol, new to the financial game and words, whatnot)...


The reason for the $250 deposit is to encourage the borrower to return it. It would cost me a bit more than that to replace it. The way it works is you use PayPal to send me the deposit, I then Priority Mail it to you. You return it in working order and I return, using PayPal, the deposit minus my cost to mail the meter to you, which is about $11. You will pay the cost to mail it back to me, also about $11. So, your total cost is $22. My loss on the transaction is less than one dollar.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> The reason for the $250 deposit is to encourage the borrower to return it. It would cost me a bit more than that to replace it. The way it works is you use PayPal to send me the deposit, I then Priority Mail it to you. You return it in working order and I return, using PayPal, the deposit minus my cost to mail the meter to you, which is about $11. You will pay the cost to mail it back to me, also about $11. So, your total cost is $22. My loss on the transaction is less than one dollar.


Thanks Hoppy for the epic feedback :hail:
Its something I would have to think about. When people talk about, what to me is, large quantity's of money in one setting, it makes me uneasy since I'm a money hoarder...! lol. 
If I do give myself the 'Ok' to get your PAR meter, I will certainly PM you.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi,

it seems the plants melt once planted - if I understand correctly, the ones you experimented with by floating actually put out an inch of growth before you planted them.

Could there be a contaminant in your substrate? Or perhaps are you re-using substrate? Alleopathy (I'm positive I mis-spelled that) between plants can be amazingly destructive. For instance, if you used any component which included leaf litter from a rhododendron, they actually put out a chemical which prevents other plants or seeds from rooting successfully. 

Even some metals, in high enough concentration, can kill plants. And, if the whole thing goes kaput (rather than a progressive deterioration while growing submerged type leaves) that also makes me wonder about a systemic problem. 

Just some thoughts.
-Jane


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Hey Jane,
Thank you very much for your comment. Has some wonderful ideas in there!

The substrate in this tank is Pool filter sand. Now, it does have silica in it I believe? but I heard that Only effects algae growth on the substrate. Now you have me thinking my substrate is killing everything LOL... hopefully not... gosh what a chore that would be. 
Yes the plants that float, last Much longer. So far they do not have Any new growth as far as I can see though and its been a good bit.


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## deepgreen (Aug 2, 2008)

You could try to verify that your problem is related to the emersed growth or not. Maybe you already did. Does any plant grown submerged melt or is it only restricted to the emersed plants?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Nope its any photosynthesizing thing I put into the tank. Melts within days.


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## deepgreen (Aug 2, 2008)

You pointed out that you stopped algae growth. What did you do to achieve that? MAybe you can back to that stage and see whether your plants grow then. Another approach is to exclude one factor at a time, e.g. switch of your CO2 and see whether the plants survive, then do two 80% water changes and see whether they survive to see whether you got something bad in there, and so on. It is strange given that everything grows in your other tank.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Just did a WC,
found 3 dead fish, all my CPD's have died. Rainbows are all alive still. Oto's all alive. Gobbies, half died. Cory's all alive.
Deepgreen I'm unexplainably happy that you are interested in helping me. You have no idea how happy I am from the help so far. 

Let me update you on this issue, and answer your questions.
To achieve No algae growth, I simply lifted the light 4ft or so from the surface of the tank. (I'm selling this light and buying a AFA LED, forget the name, aquasky?). Once I did that, algae growth stopped, but with that all the plants began melting, again, rather than staying Alive as they were previously. So I have now lowered it back down... About 1 ft from the top, I am now experiencing a matter of problems. But so far with the 1ft from the top thing, I haven't seen any different effect.
let me be clear: any plants emersed or submersed I put into this tank, which has the Same water source as all my other tanks, die. 
Is this tank fertilized: not anymore, not going to waste it right now, I know fertz isn't the issue. 
Substrate: I was thinking of the substrate. But its just PFS? root systems on the plants are normal & plentiful. 0% leaf growth. 98% melt. 
heater exploded, replacing tmrw, filters are fine, Co2 is not working, or diffusing I should say...  The co2 canister is producing Co2, but when it hits my inline diffuser, nothing from there on. No leaks as far as I can tell, I contacted GLA they replied a few times confused and eventually just didn't reply. 

Deepgreen I hope that answered your questions a bit more. 
Eventually I'm going to dismantle this tank (if this route keeps going like this) and dirt it. Which will be a Very difficult process with arrangements concerning the stocking.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Oh, and even now with the light hanging low I'm getting no algae growth (little if any) and I have UV.


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## deepgreen (Aug 2, 2008)

Maybe just go back to standard conditions. Light 1ft above or lower, some ferts, some CO2 and see what happens. You changed several factors at once which makes it difficult to say, but I guess your light was a little too high and with an inert soil, you obviously need to give them some ferts. Alternatively, you could use a little pod with ADA AS and put the plant in there in the tank with the lights lowered. Just guessing.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions,
Before I can carry out what you said there, I must fix the Co2, there is enough nitrates and nutrients in the substrate (osmocot) to carry the plants that are in there now, back to good health. With or without the current lighting (which is 1ft above surface).
Co2 is as I said in last post. 
Light is as you said
Fertz are good and plants have a plentiful amount of nutrients to carry out new growth (of which there is and has been none from the remaining small stems)
Plants are still melting, any I add. Weather they are from me or another seller, they grow fine in my other tanks as said.
Now I'm back to square 1 which is, no clue... Maybe this is some sort of... Tank crash? cant be... double filtration and a cycled tank isn't a tank crash I couldn't think. Parameters are literally spotless, ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 10ppm... Always have been steady like that to. 
No spikes or anything.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

*Might have found the problem!??!?!?! *​I'm very excited right now, shaking exciting...!

The substrate I have is pool filter sand, obviously pool filter sand ingrediants vary right? 
This is the PFS I got from amazon: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Arch-Che...online&wl12=119465404&wl13=&veh=sem#read-more
*Active ingredient:*
Pool Filter Sand, 50-Lb.HTH, 50 LB, Pool Filter Sand, For Use In All Sand Filters, Active Ingredient Cyrstalline Silica, QTZ 87-99.9%, Bag. 
HTH, 50 LB, Pool Filter Sand, For Use In All Sand Filters
Active Ingredient *Cyrstalline Silica*, QTZ 87-99.9%, Bag.

Is this the issue???!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

No, crystalline silica should not have any effect on the water. Remember even quartz is a silica based rock. That pool filter sand would not work for swimming pools if it dissolved to any extent in the water. The silicate that we get in our water is mostly from what is in the tap water, and it is one or more of the few silicates that can dissolve in water.

I suspect you have a lighting problem, or less likely, an absence of one or more of the nutrients plants need.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> No, crystalline silica should not have any effect on the water. Remember even quartz is a silica based rock. That pool filter sand would not work for swimming pools if it dissolved to any extent in the water. The silicate that we get in our water is mostly from what is in the tap water, and it is one or more of the few silicates that can dissolve in water.
> 
> I suspect you have a lighting problem, or less likely, an absence of one or more of the nutrients plants need.


Wouldn't be nutrients. Ive marked that out long ago. There are 3 plants in the tank now and they are the "survivors" and its just Brazilian pennywort and some experiment ludwigia that are doing fine for now. Brazilian pennywort is guaranteed safe... I'm selling the light and getting an aquasky I believe its called from AFA as said as well. So if that doesn't do the trick, idk...
I dose Thrive+ but have recently stopped since there is little to nothing in the tank. Until the new light comes I'm not going to dose.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Archea it is, the light. Sorry forgot the name, here is a link to the future light: https://aquaforestaquarium.com/coll...um-aquatic-plant-led-light?variant=7785890433
This light would provide a good high tech lighting correct? 36 7/8 x 19 x 24 5/8


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I can't find enough information about that light to know if it will give you enough intensity. Archea is a good company, and they are used for some high light tanks, but the ad for it doesn't give any PAR data, nor enough data about the LEDs for me to guess how much light it produces.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hmm... I did some background research on it previously, I couldn't find any either... 
Well I hope I don't regret the purchase. Seems like its used in high light tanks from pics. Ill contact AFA and ask see if they know anything.


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