# Starting a 100G dirt tank for the first time.



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Hi all.

I've been reading a lot about El Natural method and I always wanted to start a tank like this. I got Diana Walstad's book a year ago and went through it a few times. I really like all the explanation and science behind the method. Hopefully I understood enough information to put me through this process and do it in the right way.

My first attempt at dirted tank was recent and kind of disastrous. I had a tank with natural river gravel running fine for about 2 years with no problems. I decided I wanted to change the substrate to soil to help my low tech plants that were doing fine actually, so I bought some commercial soil-JBL aquasoil and capped it with JBL sansibar black sand. I never detected any ammonia or nitrIte in the process, but my fish got really sick about 1-2 months after the swap for one or another reason. The tank was planted with mostly hydrophila and some amazon swords and anubias. All the hydrophila melted faster than I could replace. The amazon swords did a lot of melting at first as well and now iif there is any growing, its growing stunted, like grass more likely, rather than an amazon sword. The anubias suffered a bit too but are surviving. I don't know what experience people have with that soil, but in my case it's totally not working, even after 4-5 months. I can barely keep the plants alive and my fish went through several treatments, finally on recovery now. I am shutting down this tank and all fish will be moved to the new setup once ready.

So to cut this story short, I am dreading a similar thing will happen to my new 100G( second hand) tank but I'll give it a chance as I love planted tanks.

While researching, I came accross Aaron Talbot's mineralized topsoil thread. So I decided I'd try this method instead as it just sounded safer when it comes to stocking the tank later on.
I bought some normal topsoil locally. There isn't any choice here so I have to risk what's on the market. So far I've done four wet/dry cycles to mineralize the soil and possibly wash it from anything else toxic it may contain. I sifted it and removed a lot of sticks and other large organic material. From 120lbs(about 50kg), I am left with less than half of it after mineralization. I think that will be enough for max an inch layer. And with this weather here don't ask me how long it took for it to dry several times 

In the mean time I decided to setup the filters and to do a fishless cycle in the tank, instead of looking at it dry. I figured well cycled filters would be of benefit too when I dump a soil that can possibly release ammonia and it also gave me time to test everything and research a bit more. I still won't rush into stocking the tank either way, but the sooner the better.

And again, unfortunately, I can't follow all the recommended rules for an El Natural tank, as I will be stocking it with corydoras mainly. Therefore the substrate can't be too large or coarse. I've been fighting this decision for weeks, but I finally settled on a cap of Unipac Fiji sand which has a grain size of 1-2mm. Hopefully it won't cause problems with the soil becoming anaerobic, but on another hand I just love when the corys sift through substrate they like so I can't deprive them from that, especially because the tank is being setup for them mainly. I am not sure how that will work and hopefully I won't regret it.

There are also 3 external filters in the tank creating a 10x flow per manufacturer specs. I think I went a bit overboard with that part but I totally ignored the fact that I'll be relying on the plants mainly. However, after researching about flow, I positioned the spraybars along the back, below the water level to prevent most of the surface movement which would degass possible CO2. The spraybar setup is supposed to be better in spreading nutritients equally to the bottom, preventing lower leaves of the plants melting too.

The light will be custom made LEDS, 45x3W via 3 strips. I think all of them will be way too much for the this setup but I can rotate them via timers so at any given time there won't be more than 30x3W LEDs at time. If anyone has used LEDs, do you think that's too much over a 100G tank or how much light would be needed? Also, what's the best light duration for a start, as in hours?

The tank is open top for now, and the light will be supsended above. I am hoping to grow some plants emergent too if they wish to do so, and possibly some floaters but they never survive for me in other tanks.

And now the most important part, the plants...I have no idea how many to order for a 100G tank to cover 75% of the substrate. I'll order a good few different ones to see what will grow and what will not, but since I want to plant it well from the start, I wasn't too sure how many. Here is what I have in mind so far:

Echinodorus Rosé
Echinodorus quadricostatus
Echinodorus gabrielii
Echinodorus cordifolius (E. radicans)
Echinodorus 'Rubin'
Vallisneria spiralis(straight vallis)
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae 'Red'
Cryptocoryne beckettii "Pink"
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Nuphar japonica
Nymphaea lotus var. rubra
Bacopa australis
Aponogeton crispus
Crinum natans (C.aquatica)
Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita

And to be planted on the driftwood(pic below)
Vesicularia montagnei(christmas moss)
Microsorum pteropus ''Narrow''(narrow leaf java fern)
Anubias barteri var. coffeifolia

From what I can see myself on this list, I've got too many possibly large species/background plants, but I can't decide what to skip. I just want them all . I've got other tanks I can possibly use some of these if by some magic I get overgrown  Are these also enough for initial planting of a 5f 100G tank? 
Any suggestions and recommendations welcomed. The tank is sitting empty still, with a piece of driftwood that can't stop leaking tannins but I like yellow water anyway. I wish I could visualize where I'll be planting all that stuff, but I am not too sure 










I hope it wasn't too boring for you reading all this stuff. Thank you.


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## Luffy (Aug 23, 2012)

Man, I like your planning! It reminds me of how much I read and researched before starting my first tank!

Your setup seems to be fine. Walstad herself uses sand sometimes so I don't think it'll be a problem for you. I have my own sand bottom El Natural with tons of very happy Crypts. I just made the cap a little thinner since it's a smaller grain.

I think you'll like the Aponogeton Crispus with the open top. They send up some nice pretty floating leaves and you'll almost definitely get some flowers. I got mine really cheap in bulb form, then just threw them in the water. After a couple days you start to see the little green leaves, then you can move the bulb to your desired spot and it'll grow surprisingly quickly. I got a few duds in the package but the whole package cost three bucks and I got four plants out of it. What a steal!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Luffy.
How thick do you recommend the sand cap to be? I was planning on 1.5"(4cm).


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

SBS, like Luffy I think your plan is good. Extra filtration does not hurt--water circulation is very beneficial and the extra capacity is nice insurance for water quality. Doing a fishless cycle before setting up the tank is a great idea.

Even though your tank is large, I would not use more than 1.5" of soil. A 1" cap is enough, 1.5" won't hurt. Cories work the surface of the substrate, but they don't really dig. I don't think you will have any problems.

For the number of plants, go to the Plant Finder or other source, and look at the mature width of the species you are interested in. This gives you an idea of how much space they will take up. If a stem plant has a width of 1", then you would need to plant one stem for each square inch. If it has a width of 2", then you would plant one stem for each 4 square inches (2" x 2" = 4 sq. in.) Most of your plants are not extrememly fast growing, so you might want to increase the amount of inexpensive, fast growing stems (_B. australis_?) at first to stabilize the tank. You can remove some later if you want. BTW, the _Hydrocotyle tripartita_ will make a very attractive floating mat on the surface if you let it. Like you, I have trouble with most floating plants, but this one does well for me.

About the LEDs, they seem to be all over the map as far as light quality for plants goes. Try asking a question in the Lighting forum about the specific fixtures you are considering. Someone with direct experience should respond.

Good luck, and please keep us posted on your progress.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks guys.
Are there any other plants you would recommend that may possibly work out and are fast growers?
I have some hydrophilla corymbosa glabra in my other tanks that grows like weed(it died in my other "dirt" attempted tank though). I am planning to use some clippings but I'll consider something else, however not sure what?


As for the LEDs, I am hoping they'll be alright. They are designed with plants in mind by a guy who is a plant enthusiast and has some stunning tanks using these, although he's more of a high tech lover.


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## reybie (Jul 18, 2007)

I love looking at wavy plants like giant val or the smaller versions the like the val nana in big tanks like this. There's just something about fishes swimming and zigzagging through them that makes it look natural.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Reybie. I like them too so am intending to order some straight vallis, whatever will turn up.
The tank is old and has calcium deposits at the back that I couldn't clean up so I need to cover it up a bit in case its too visible.
Maybe I'll just get a bit more of it and the bacopa as Michael suggested.


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## reybie (Jul 18, 2007)

Plants should cover them just fine once they are established especially if you're planning some fast growing stems. Bacopas grow like weeds, if you don't mind trimming every week, it should cover those blemishes just fine.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I changed a bit my plant list. I omitted a couple of big species and replaced them with smaller. Got some mexican oak leaf as another fast grower. All ordered so no changes now 

Echinodorus Rosé
Echinodorus Parviflorus
Echinodorus quadricostatus
Echinodorus gabrielii
Echinodorus cordifolius (E. radicans)
Vallisneria spiralis(straight vallis)
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
Cryptocoryne beckettii "Pink"
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Nuphar japonica
Nymphaea lotus var. rubra
Bacopa australis
Aponogeton crispus
Crinum natans (C.aquatica)
Hydrocotyle cf. tripartita
Shinnersia rivularis(Mexican Oak Leaf)
Ludwigia palustris x repens (L. mullertii)

And to be planted on the driftwood
Taxiphyllum species "Spiky moss"
Microsorum pteropus ''Narrow''(narrow leaf java fern)
Anubias barteri var. coffeifolia


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## Luffy (Aug 23, 2012)

I did about one inch of sand like michael said. It has worked well. I haven't tried cories yet though. I do love the little guys though. So fun and active!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks again. 
I am more worried about my bristlenose pleco who likes to make sand pits under his cave 

I was also going to ask about the soil. I've got two different types I've been mineralizing. One of them, even I did a 5th soaking, never settles really well and the water doesn't become as clear as the other type of soil after I leave it for a day or two. It also contained a lot more organic stuff, like wood chips, etc.. and I had to remove a lot leaving very little soil after the mineralization. This isn't really a good thing, is it?

I think one of the reasons could be that the one that clears better had tiny bits of clay that I crushed when sifting which helps it settle better so maybe when I add the clay as per Aaron's recipe both will settle, or should I just omit the soil that doesn't settle well and not mix the soils.
I think I'll have enough just from the other one.

What do you think?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I'd use the soil that shows better results after being mineralized.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Michael. I'll leave the soil that doesn't clear up well. I think I have too much with both of them anyway. I guess I can store it and try it on a small tank one day.
Hopefully in the next few days I'll make some progress on setting it up if I receive the stuff, and I'll post some pictures.
Thank you all for your replies. You are being very helpful.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I received the sand but it won't be until next mid week until I receive the plants.
I was wondering if there's any real benefit of just putting the soil and sand cap in the tank without planting for a week. Then drain and plant when I get the plants or should I not bother?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

If you do soil and cap now, nutrients from the soil will feed your biofilter, and you get one more "rinse cycle". It also gives you a chance to study the tank and think about your planting plan.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

SBS said:


> Thanks again.
> I am more worried about my bristlenose pleco who likes to make sand pits under his cave


In my latest set up I just planned where I wanted my cave to end up and I just moved the soil out of that area and filled it in with sand. That way when my pleco dig in there, there would only be sand. I tried to fan the soil out a bit so that it would be thinner around the cave as well. Prior to sand capping the soil, the area around my cave sloped up away from the cave.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> If you do soil and cap now, nutrients from the soil will feed your biofilter, and you get one more "rinse cycle". It also gives you a chance to study the tank and think about your planting plan.


Thanks Michael. I may do that tomorrow then.



> In my latest set up I just planned where I wanted my cave to end up and I just moved the soil out of that area and filled it in with sand. That way when my pleco dig in there, there would only be sand. I tried to fan the soil out a bit so that it would be thinner around the cave as well. Prior to sand capping the soil, the area around my cave sloped up away from the cave.


Thanks. I was thinking something along the lines but I am not sure where the pleco will end up digging. The sand I got isn't that small so I think he is going to have hard time this time 
There are a couple of coconuts and lava stone planted with anubias and a driftwood and he's dug up under each one of them, almost making them tilt on one side. I even put almond leaves beneath to stop him and he dig under them too. The corys adore him for that, they took over and love the deep holes covered with leaves
I can't belive such a small ancistrus can be so destructive. I've got a big common pleco in a semi planted tank and never ever had a problem.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"I can't belive such a small ancistrus can be so destructive. I've got a big common pleco in a semi planted tank and never ever had a problem."

That's odd, I have dozens of common bristlenoses in various tanks and none of them have ever caused a problem.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Michael said:


> "I can't belive such a small ancistrus can be so destructive. I've got a big common pleco in a semi planted tank and never ever had a problem."
> 
> That's odd, I have dozens of common bristlenoses in various tanks and none of them have ever caused a problem.


Yeah, I know. Almost everyone said so. I must be lucky 
Imagine if I considered putting the common pleco in this tank and the ancistrus in the common pleco tank  He's a hyper active one. I takes two seconds to spot him in the tank because he doesn't stop moving. I raised him from nearly a fry size and he's always been like that. Maybe when he gets a bit older he'll get lazier.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Sadly no updates yet. I was going to put the soil and sand, but then I remembered that the light unit I ordered is to be connected at the back of the tank, so I need to empty it and move it away from the wall a bit to do that.
Therefore, still emtpy tank, no lights and no plants arrived today 
Tomorrow is another day I guess....
I am running out of patience 

Edit: Also, since I keep putting ammonia in the tank to keep the cycled going, I got overly lazy and wasn't even measuring how much. The other day it seems I put way too much because the tank turned into a white cloud for a day or so. Cleared up itself though.
Poor pond snails that got transferred by accident via some media from another tank, are still ticking away surviving that long cycle.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

If there's equipment that connects behind the tank that you can't access because of your tank placement, you might want to keep the tank a little further away from the wall.

It's one of those things you might not think about until a ballast or something dies and you have to undertake the venture of trying to drain and move an established aquarium


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Yeah, I did that mistake with another tank. I'll see when I install the lights how far away from the wall I can keep the tank.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Powerbars with long chords are a great invention


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry for not updating guys.
Many things went wrong. I still haven't received my LED lights. Huge delay there.
The plants got stuck in the post as the sender didn't put my phone number and the courier couldn't get access to deliver it. They survived but then I had nohwere to put them, so got stuck in a bucket with water for a few days.
I decided to setup the tank before the plants die off completely. So I am stuck with a totally crappy 36W bulb over 100G tank. I don't even know if the plants will survive till next week when the LEDs arrive.

Then while planting I made the mistake to almost dry out the plants, as I took them out before putting the soil and stuff. I couldn't also identify the echinodorus species between each other so I have no idea which ones are the small species and which the big. 3 of them looked identical too.
And I almost forgot to put the dolomite and potassium chloride beneath the soil but managed on time.

Anyway, here are a few pictures. Please excuse the final result. My partner said it looks like the tank of a 3 year old

Drying out the clay









The soil before mineralization:









Soaking the soil









The mineralized soil visited by alien paws...









Mixed with the smashed clay(I got blisters on my hands crushing it)









Someone left their hands at it:









Putting some gravel at the front to hide the soil layer









There's dolomite and potassium beneath the soil. I managed to put it somehow after 1/3rd of the tank had soil in it, but no picture.

The soil layer ended up about 3/4"









Capped with about 1" of Unipac fiji sand









Filling up the tank(forgot to check the bloody temperature of the water so it ended up freezing by the time it filled up, another shock for my poor plants....)


















The water came out crystal clear









And with the crappy light on. Please excuse the aquascape. There isn't any aquascape. I just need to see what will grow, how fast, how it looks and what shape it takes, so there will be many changes. Now it's just a place for the plants to grow. And I need the bloody LEDs










The tank was planted on Friday. Today(Sunday) I tested the water. The Gh is slightly higher than my tap and other tanks water, but the rest hasn't changed.

Ph-7.4
Gh-14(2dGh higher)
Kh-8

And I don't know if the soil is realeasing any ammonia at all because the ammonia and nitrite are 0.
I actually added some ammonia to keep the cycle going until I add some fish.
I bought 4 nerite snail, 3 red ramshorns and 2 ottos for this tank but they'll spend some time in another tank first. They didn't have trumpet snails 

Here is a video of the two new ottos and some of the corys that will be moved to this tank eventually. And possibly shrimp too.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

And I bought these two floaters too with the fish the other day. Does anyone know their names?



















I also have salvinia minima growing in bowls on the window and also in a tank, so I'll add them too once I get some more light.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Sorry to hear about all the problems!

The second plant is water lettuce _Pistia stratiotes_. It is invasive and illegal in some states, so check your local laws. (Same for _Salvinia_.) I have no idea what the first one is, but it is really cool!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Michael. It's not illegal here as I got it from the fish shop 
It's gonna need to make quite a trip from my tank to invade public waters and then it will probably freeze on the way...


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

The first floater is apparently "trapa natans", another invasive species in some countries , and protected in others. The fruit is edible too, has anti cancerous properties too. I think I'll grow myself some dinner...


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Just a few pics of my poor plants suffering a total meltdown..Do you think there's anything I can do?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I haven't update in a while but thought I'd mention the new led lights arrived(damaged) so there was a slight delay to fix a few things but the lights have been over the tank for about 5 days now, although I still need to find a way to suspend them because the brackets I ordered don't fit and are too short for the tank.

Several plants seem to be dying completely including the anubias which I noticed had melted even down to the rhizome. I replaced it with my own clippings but didn't want it to come to that as it will take ages to grow.

Other plants seem to be on the recovery now and hopefully they'll grow but the only plant that seems thriving is the nuphar japonica.
I have the lights on for 7 hours now and I am using just medium to low light at the moment.

Surprisingly, there's not one bit of algae, not even diatoms but there's still no fish in the tank although I dosed ammonia from time to time. And the only bubbling coming out from the substrate so far was experienced the first couple of days only. I'd say it was just trapped air mostly.

I did a huge water change today and tomorrow I'll transfer some fish to see if they'll live in there 
I tested the GH out of curiousity again, and it was less than before, about 12, so at least nothing in the soil is changing my water parameters.

I am posting just a couple of pictures because it's still a very poor and ugly view. Please excuse the way the lights are at the moment as I just have them over the tank like that till I fugure a way to suspend them properly.










The nuphar japonica growing nicely after totally metling its previous leaves:










And my latest emmersed addition but I am still waiting on planters so I can put it in properly and add a few more possibly.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I transfered a few platies(8) last night. They are my 5-6 months old babies and are all females for some reason. I measured ammonia and nitrites today-none at all. There shouldn't be any after me cycling this tank for ages....
The platies are very busy eating stuff from the wood and possibly some invisible microorganisms that developed while it was unpopulated.

A couple of pictures of the "baby" platies exploring the tank.



















And this is a picture of some of their aunts, or mother in another tank:


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I am almost done with getting parts to suspend the lights, possibly tomorrow so the light will be dispersed better.

The plants are still not taking off as fast as I want them. One of my new floaters(trapa natans) died just before I put the LEDs, the other one of the new ones is struggling(water lettuce) but my own salvinia minima is loving it.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Lights are up


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Pretty nice lighting setup there mate. I can't wait to see your results!!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Mezuri.
Hopefully there will be results to see 
I've transfered more fish. There are now 7 corys in the tank too, racing all over the place and looking chuffed with the extra space.
The stats are holding on steadily at 0s, the nitrAte is almost 0 too even though I haven't done a water change since adding the first fish but the TDS is keeping steady too so I'll spare everyone the trouble for now(and I've got itchy fingers about it because I do 50% water changes religiously every week on my other 4 tanks)

I added a few more anubias nanas and some of my hydrophila just to keep a balance but there's no room and they are almost squeezed next to the glass. The floating salvinia is exploding and looks really healthy. From a small glass bowl at the window it's now threatening to take over half of the tank's surface. And it looks that finally the mexican oak leave started growing too. I have survivors from the ludwiga and the bacopa too. But I don't think my red lotus bulb made it which is a pitty as this was one of the plants I really wanted.

And so far I am really pleased to see no algae at all, not even diatoms which I always have when setting up new tanks, and the water is crystal clear. It's like there's no soil at all. I did a bit of a mess the other day, and I had set the lights timer wrong so the lights didn't turn off for many,many hours, possibly 14 or more. Hopefully I didn't do too much harm.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

And you can see a video of the tank below I just took. Sorry about the back glass. The tank is old and it's badly stained with calcium deposits I couldn't clean but hopefully one day that will be covered by tall background plants.
It's really a mess and not a show off but I've nothing to hide  I really hope it gets better and gets stable enough to get rescaped a bit once the plants take off. All comments welcomed. It seemed everyone is scared to post here


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Oops, forgot the link.

Here it is:


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Some more pictures:


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Not much to report yet, the plants started growing slowly but surely and even the stems have grown a bit now but I lost so many of them I am going to have to wait. 
I added some more anubias from other tanks, 3 amazon swords, some extra hydrophila and I'll probably end up planting dwarf sagittaria too as I have to remove some from another tank, although I am sick of looking at it.
The floaters have been dominating the tank and I remove handfuls of them regularly. I've put the light far above the surface as it's way too much for now.

And a short video for corydoras lovers:


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Hi.

Just a bit of a video of the tank now and it's progress.











Sorry for the lack of scape but I am just letting the plants grow.
There are quite a few in the wrong positions but I've been rather trying to multiply and growing them, instead of scaping due to the big melt in the beginning. Also, they do grow at different rates so it will take time for them to shape and show what they'll be like. Some seem to like different degree of light so I am just trying out different places, hence the random plants here and there as well.

I also just planted a few days ago some glosso, not that I've got hopes for it but it was free from a very kind forum member, so I couldn't throw it away. I finally got hydrocotyle tripartita too, after somehow omitting it in the original order but it's been perched on my driftwood mainly for now, till I find a place for it, or see if that glosso will do anything at all.

Other than that, the tank inhabitants are quite happy, my adult corys spawned several times and all is well, knock wood.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Hi SBS,
surprised no one has posted, it's a very inspiring project  What kind of platies are those? Do they breed often? Thinking about adding some to my tank.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Also, would you recommend sand for corys? I have round river rocks about 1/4" in diameter, would those be fine?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Hi. Thanks.
I think I scared everyone away somehow.

The platies are red wagtail. Yes, they breed a lot and many fry survive if there's enough cover.
I am keeping just females in this tank so they don't breed here as well but I am overloaded with them in another tank.

Sand is best for corys. Their natural way of eating is to sift through it, so they'd suffer to a degree if they don't have it. I've got sand in all tanks, but this one has the Unipac Fiji sand which isn't very small. The only reason for that is that I didn't want the soil to go anaerobic, but I am not sure yet how it will affect the corys. 
River rocks are perfectly fine, however, if they are too big, lots of food may gather in between that the fish can't reach. If it's for a soil tank as a cap, then you won't be able to use them as the soil will get loose and cloud the water. Other than that, they are the next best to sand when it comes to corys, as they are smooth. People also tend to have success with cory fry using pebbles, because the fry hide in between the rocks.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Ahh, thats cool about the platies. Yes, it will be my cap, do you know if playsand would work well? 

I'm thinking about creating slopes in my tank. I'm afraid if i put < 2" of sand, it would become anaerobic. What would you do to create slopes?
-Andrew


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Play sand is way too fine. I wouldn't go with it. There's aquatic sand sold that is normally not so fine.
But I know people have done tanks like that with play sand too..

For slopes I am not sure. You may try using the gravel you have beneath everything, and separate with with a mesh so it doesn't eventually work it's way out on top. But definately don't use the soil and sand to do that.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

As long as i use 1" or less of sand i should be fine...

So how would i plant on a slope of i dont use soil above the grave?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> So how would i plant on a slope of i dont use soil above the grave?


What I meant is not to use the soil/sand only to make the hill, put instead put a base of gravel for example, then a mesh and other accessories that would keep the hill intact, then the normal soil amount+sand cap on top and the rest of the tank


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

ahh i see, thanks  

How often have you been doing water changes? planted tanks usually dont need them very often once they get set up well, and i assume yours is stable at the moment


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I am not doing much water changing on this tank at the moment. I am not sure I'll keep not doing water changes, but I just want to see if the parameters will change fast. 
So far I've done like 1 water change a month(50%) and to be honest I think it can't go on like that forever.
The plants are very happy but the TDS(total dissolved soilds) are creeping up, which is no good for the fish. If it keeps going like this, I'll be doing regular weekly water changes to bring the levels back to what they were. I haven't tested the Gh and Kh recently so I need to do that too to see if any of them is going up/down when not doing water changes as that's what normally happens.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Is the TDS rise normal or can it be solved without water changes? 

It must be nice to not have to do water changes  I bet a lot of aquarists would be interested in this type of setup


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> Is the TDS rise normal or can it be solved without water changes?


The rise in TDS is something that happens when one doesn't do enough water changes, or none at all. I don't think it can be solved without water changes. I depends what exactly is raising the TDS too, but then you can't separate water from dissolved solids without removing the water, so I guess I'll be doing water changes. One can leave it and the fish adjust to higher levels, but this is not necessarily the best for their health and live span depending on the species.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Looking back at your pictures, what kind of clay is that you used in your soil?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

It's red earthenware clay. I bought it from a crafts shop but the seller said this type of clay is natural, without additives.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Here is a video for platy lovers  (not many I guess...)


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

I envy your lighting! I can't wait for my full upgrade! 40gal to 150gal  with diy led lighting  I like your arrangement hope all is well with your tank!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Mezuri. After the initial set back, the tank is now running great so far and the plants have picked up a lot.

And careful with the LEDs, as they are powerful. You may want to start with lower light and then gradually increase if you think is needed.

Make sure to open a journal  and good luck with it.


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks SBS I plan on starting with a few and leave options there to upgrade if needed I understand LEDs are powerful but cost effective in the long term!

Of cause I will start a new 5x2x2 journal! I enjoy and like feedback regardless of positive or negative! Its the only way to learn!!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

The LEDs are definately cost effective and way longer lasting. I also love the shimmer effect.

Are you doing them yourself or is someone else making them for you?



> Of cause I will start a new 5x2x2 journal! I enjoy and like feedback regardless of positive or negative! Its the only way to learn!!


Yeah, me too. Constructive critisism is always good.

I just don't know what I said or did to get almost no responses or comments on my thread . But I got used of it


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Well I'm a newbie at this, so thanks for the tips  Hoping to do this right the first time.


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Yeah I will be making the lighting myself 
From what I have learnt being an aquarianist you need to be a electrician plumber cabinet maker and a chemist all at the same time xD.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

seriously  I've read your post about your aquarium, interesting how you pulled it off. What tips do you have to prevent a lot of problems?


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Take your time and don't rush anything!
I was impatient hence all my issues really.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Mezuri said:


> Yeah I will be making the lighting myself
> From what I have learnt being an aquarianist you need to be a electrician plumber cabinet maker and a chemist all at the same time xD.


Ha, ha. A agree 



> seriously I've read your post about your aquarium, interesting how you pulled it off. What tips do you have to prevent a lot of problems?


Take your time setting it up. I think I had no algae outbreaks because my filters were first fishlessly cycled, the soil was mineralized and I used floating plants to compensate for my other plants massively melting initially, also emersed house plants. So any ammonia issues and excess nutritients that can trigger algae were covered for. In my experience in the beginning the plants were very fragile and if I tried to move a plant, I nearly killed it. So plant and leave them to it. If you have melting stems, make sure you cut the melting part/roots and replant, otherwise it affects the whole plant. The plants you buy may have grown emersed and will also melt their previous leaves. Remove any that you see going brown, melting, etc.... And observe, if you see any minor algae, reduce the light intensity and duration.
It may sound difficult, but it's totally easy. All you need to think off is that more light causes more demand for CO2 and nutritients. If there isn't enough of any of these-algae outbreak. This is particularly important in a low tech tank where you don't supplement any of them additionally. 
And also new tanks/uncycled tanks will have ammonia/nitrites at high ammount and massive leaching of other stuff from the soil which the type of plants, or the amount you have and the filters can't handle on time and can lead algae outbreaks. So you control/prevent these one way or the other and you'll be fine.

Other than that, I don't do a think to the tank besides feeding the fish and do a water change when I feel like it. I am slowly figuring how to rescape it but I'll do it gradually, rather than pull everything out and replant. No hurry.

And good luck. It's fairly easy, just sounds complicated for some reason.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Thanks guys! Right now im housing fish in my tank, but it's not set up as a walstad yet. I'm pretty sure it's cycled, but I'm sure I will have to when i take up the current substrate and such. 

Is melting stems browning/dying stems? From malnutrition?

House plants? like pothos and clover?

How long did you wait until adding fish? I assume once it was done cycling.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> How long did you wait until adding fish? I assume once it was done cycling.


Well, my filters were fishlessly cycled using ammonia. Then I put the soil/plants, etc..didn't get any ammonia for the two weeks it was empty but waited because the plants were a mess. Then I put the fish in, but stocked gradually(almost)



> Is melting stems browning/dying stems? From malnutrition?


My plants melted because they spent ages with the courier since they conveniently missed having my phone number to deliver, and there's restricted access here. 
But some sort of melting is expected as many plants don't like it when moved to totally new conditions and depending on where you are buying them from, many were grown in emersed from and will shed these leaves once under water. However, if plants start melting for no reason, then the issue is normally lack of CO2/lack of flow distributing the CO2 and of course nutritients are a must but that's what the soil should be doing in such a setup.

If you are going to put the fish straight in, best is to mineralize the soil first to prevent heavy ammonia/nutritient leaching, then plant heavily from day 1 and do several water changes the first week or two at least as the soil may leach ammonia which your filters may or may not handle.



> House plants? like pothos and clover?


Yes, tropical plants, but only the ones that like their roots in a lot of water and don't need high humidity on the leaves if they are to be grown outside.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

yeah, im planning on mineralizing. Would floating plants do the same as tropical plants?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

atc84 said:


> yeah, im planning on mineralizing. Would floating plants do the same as tropical plants?


Even better, because they've access to CO2 from the air which is normally the limiting factor in a low tech tank.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

sweet. I'll pick up some hornwort when i set it up


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

A quick tour of the tank as of today.






And a couple of pictures showing the progress in 3 months time.

From here:










To here today:


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Looks great mate, keep up the good work!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks Mezuri.


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

To be honest I have had massive issues with mine probably due to impatients more then anything I don't have any floating plants in mine maybe that has something to do with it.. However my plant life after attempt #4 has really started to come together I'll take a pic of my tank soon and post in my thread. I cannot wait for my 150 gal it should look great I have been doing a hell of a lot of reasearch. Can't wait for it to be reality!


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes, I think the floating and emersed plants really helped in my case, considering the poor state of the initial plants and low plant mass. The salvinia was on steroids at some stage and I was removing huge amounts daily. I am now gradually decreasing it as it's blocking too much light and I figured some of these plants need a bit more, like the hydrophila pinnatifida for example. It does not like shade.
I've got another one plant that turned out to be a very fast grower, the mexican oak leaf plant which is the green tall stem plant with thinner leaves on the lates picture. If I don't look at the tank for 2 days, it tries to grow emersed. It's amazing that I was only left with 3 miniature stems with a couple of leaves on it, nearly burried in the substrate and looking sorry for itself, but it suddenly took off at some stage.
The same happened to my ludwiga, I thought I had lost it initially, it was a couple of stems with a couple of leaves on it left, now it's looking really beautiful.
And from all the 20+ species of plants I got, all are surviving and growing. And even the red lotus bulb is now growing something from it, not looking like a plant yet but not dead  Yey.
Another thing I noticed is that the plants did not take well to moving at that cruical stage, so I left everything the way it is after killing one of the aponogeton crispus bulbs. I only replanted the overgrown parts, but haven't attempted to change the scape yet.

I am sure with so much experience behind your back, yours will be great I think I'll never attempt another planted tank without this method. It's just too easy growing plants like that once you go through the initial setbacks, if any.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

These pictures are from about a week ago:































































A couple of days ago I removed the hydrophila behind the wood and replanted with trimmings from the mexican oak leaf. I am not thrilled about it but they need to grow and bush up a bit to see. I also finally added 20 or so cherry shrimp from my other tank. I'll add more when I find the time to catch them.

I've been doing small water changes every 2-3 weeks whenever I have time because the TDS goes up and I don't want to let that go too high. The water evaporates some as it's an open tank and without water changes the water can become quite hard in time. Other than that, it's a smooth sail and if I had the time I'd convert all my other low tech tanks to this mineralized top soil type setup (Aaron Talbot article) but of course a lot of Diana Walstad ideas. This is the easiest way of keeping plants and even the glosso I planted is doing well and spreading horizontally. Only that the MTS snails uproot it in places when digging beneath it.

And I don't find this method limiting the choice of plants as everything seems to be doing well and recently even the bacopa australis started throwing horizontal shoots as well. 
Algae is non-existent, really healthy plants. I hope it stays this way but I am probably pushing my luck.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Some pics guys.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

I like the christmas moss growing on your driftwood.

Have you tried raising any of your fry?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks atc84. 
The moss is spiky moss, or at least that's what I ordered.

I am not raising any fry at the moment but all the platies, cories and shrimp in this tank are mine-home bred. The platies and shrimp breed with no help from me. I am trying to separate the platy males and females to stop them multiplying so this is the female tank so to speak.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Oh ok, looks similar to chrsitmas moss  

Yeah, livebearers overpopulate quickly... Thats cool, so its like your own fish family  did the cories breed on their own? They need quite a few conditions to spawn i heard...


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

atc84 said:


> Oh ok, looks similar to chrsitmas moss
> 
> Yeah, livebearers overpopulate quickly... Thats cool, so its like your own fish family  did the cories breed on their own? They need quite a few conditions to spawn i heard...


Yes, the cories breed on their own without any triggers or special conditions, at least mine. But I still had to take out the eggs,hatch them and raise the babies otherwise none survive.


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