# Emersed growth set-up advice?



## czado

I am constructing a 10g paludarium from styrafoam and concrete following background howtos. The tank will be gravity fed by a drilled 8g and will house the return pump, and I may add another tank inline to increase water volume. I plan on DIY auto top-off to maintain water level.

























Water circulation is by waterfalls and rivers. Planting area 1 is fed by a waterfall from 8g drain. Planting areas 1-5 are connected by a river. Planting area 6 is connected to 1 by another waterfall. 6 and 5 drain to submerged area.

Planting area 1 is approx 2.5" in diameter and 2" in depth.
2 is 2.5" x 1.5"
3 is 2" x 2.5"
4 is 2.5" x 1.5"
5 is 2.5" x 2"
6 is 3" x 1"

Water parameters are
10-15ppm NO3
3ppm PO4
>20ppm K
Plantex + extra Fe to .3ppm
Sometimes additional Fe chelate
>40ppm CO2
74-76F

Lid will be drilled to fit piping to minimize gassed off CO2 and keep humidity. I use EI with plants as biofilters.

Of my plants the following can be grown emersed, but I may be wrong:
Alternanthera reineckii
Ammania sp "bonsai" 
Anubias afzelli
Anubias nana
Crypt beckettii
Crypt lucens (I think. Traded for C. parva, but it's too big to be parva.)
Crypt wendtii var red
Elatine triandra
Glosso
Hygrophila corymbosa "compact"
Hygrophila polysperma "sunset"
Ludwigia repens
Pogostemon stellata "narrow leaf"
Pogostemon stellata "broad leaf"
Riccia
Rotala macrandra
Rotala rotundifolia
Wisteria
Java moss
X-mas moss

1. Layout: Are the deeper planting areas adequate or am I limited in what plants I can try? Most areas can't be much deeper, but can combine 1 & 2 and/or 3, 4, & 5 if necessary.

2. Lighting: I am leaning towards 3x13w CF or 3x15w NO. Do I need more light to try any of my plants?

3. Substrate: recommendations? Am considering layers of mulm, peat, and Schultz, or planting stems into a mix of mosses and elatine triandra. Ideally the substrate would look good on concrete.

4. Plants: From searches I believe it is best to try the crypts and glosso first, and would like to start with r. rotundifolia and l. repens, too. Since anubias is epiphytic, I would like to try it where there is no water flow but high humidity, but perhaps I am taking the word too literally. Would you recommend I start with other plants? Are any of my other plants especially interesting when grown emersed? I do not mind if I have to trim often.

5. Animals: OT, but do you recommend a particular amphibian? I prefer pets with personality, and it cannot excrete any toxins that would harm fish or inverts in the connected tank.

Thanks.


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## travis

Can't wait to see this one develop


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## Phil Edwards

Very cool! I'm looking forward to seeing your step by step progress.


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## czado

Here's the first coat.

















Thanks Travis 

Your posts have been very helpful and informative, Phil. Thanks a bunch.


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## czado

So someone walked off with it after the third and final coat of cement was drying. Will be starting over and posting pics in this thread, as I assume there is still interest.

Thanks again. Later.


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## baj

Someone actually stole an irregular styrofoam block coated with cement and a pipe sticking out of it. I dont understand my own species.


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## brad

czado said:


> Will be starting over and posting pics in this thread, as I assume there is still interest..


yup. still lots of interest on my part.


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## czado

As I look at it I think I got greedy with the planting areas, as I am not sure there is adequate room for the plants to spread out. Moving forward anyway. 
















1 is approx 2.5" in diameter and 2" deep
2: 2.5x2
3: 2x1.5
4: 2x1.5
5: 2x2
6: 2x2.5
7: 2x2.5
8: 2x.5 (I plan on trying anubias here.)
9: 1.5x1
10: 2x1.5

Hey Baj, you made my day.


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## czado

Here's second coat. Darker areas are still wet.


















ll planting areas were made a little deeper. Will list again after third and final coat.


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## SnyperP

Looking good! I'm not sure which design i like better, but is stagant water going to be an issue with the deeper pockets? I have zero knowledge of these types of tanks =D


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## czado

Thanks. With the river flowing over the pockets/planting areas, I think it will be no different than substrate in an aquarium. I believe it is recommended that emersed substrates get complete drainage, and this layout doesn't accomplish that. If needed I figure I can make little "pots" for the planting areas with holes on the bottom and a lip before the next pocket, so it drains out the bottom. I barely know what I'm doing -- hoping that once the thing is working and I learn something about emersed culture, the next paludarium will be better and pretty


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## czado

Just an update and list of issues. I've been away and dumped a ton of water softener and a powerhead into the 10g for curing. pH is still over my test and have started daily total water changes last night. The whole structure is softer than I expected -- I needed to widen the end of the river as it some chambers were overflowing, and did it easily with my hands. I'm not so sure it will hold up for some amphibians. Hoping the concrete is significantly harder after it cures. 

Tried assembling the setup while keeping sump in line (after water drains from the main its not recirculated), and for some reason the paludarium messes up my Durso standpipe unless flow rate is drastically lowered. I need to mess with the piping to figure it out. 

The structure looks very weird with plants in it.. ugly even. I'm continuing with curing but am considering a more traditional emersed growth setup using potted plants, to get maximum space and complete drainage from each pot. This would mean no animals of course. I just have to stare at the thing for a while to decide what I'm going to do. :/


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## MiamiAG

Can't wait to see some pictures. Some moss on that would look awesome.


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## czado

I've been really lazy so sorry for being slow with updates.

Its been raining here so I'm curing it on the roof -- don't tell my neighbors  I got a cool piece of driftwood that will go into the main, too.









Here's my half-* way of getting some plants started on emersed growth. The planter is 18" wide but had to remove the right lip to fit it in the tank. The pipe connects to main's drain. It may be a real dumb idea but hopefully it works out.









Layers of eggcrate. Top has mesh to keep substrate from falling:

















Mulm and junk from another tank:









Topped off with Schultz. Followed this by rinsing the whole thing, then realized that was dumb because I'm also rinsing out mulm :/ The substrate is clouding up the whole system anyway:









Cleaned out the sump but didn't clean the tank -- please excuse. It's sitting on a jar. I'll have hard piping in later. The furthest right pipe is for auto top off adapted from Dave's ECS:









May need to have a lid to keep humidity. Have not purchased new lights yet (just using spiral screw-in CFL) so all lower light species at the moment that will hopefully adapt to emersed growth okay -- crypts, anubias, l. repens.
Left:








Right:









Entry to auto top-off system. Just test fitting. I was originally thinking of using a 5g water jug with a spout connected to the piping (all sealed), but it will be better if I find some airtight container I dont need to pull down to refill.









Thanks again for all the ideas and encouragement.


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## czado

Had to take it out and increase exit holes as it caused a backflow/bubbling issue and lots of the plants got burried. Problem solved. Heres how they look now -- not too good.

















Cutting a temporary lid tonight and replanting -- I wish I could cut it for the curing structure but the current layout's entry pipe messes that up. Thinking of adding elbows to it as a workaround. More pics tomorrow.


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## Phil Edwards

That's a great idea, I think I'll steal it!


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## czado

Phil, its not working out too well as I think I'm moing way too much water through it (~200gph -- I'd rather not turn this down as I have a river tank theme going on in the main). Please steal it and I'm interested in how it works for you. 

Sorry for delay. Lid is in but plants look like they're dying or dead, and not adapting. After brainstorming on current issue, I'm trying new plantlets and not touching them, to rule out the humidity and root disturbance issues.


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## czado

I might be a day or two early on the 27 day curing point for concrete, but the structure is no longer raising pH and this is my only chance to play with it for a few days, so cheated  Have not yet decided what to grow submerged.

Issues:

Flow had to be drastically lowered as it's the only way I can get the paludarium to work with Durso standpipe on main. Estimate 125gph is moving through the tructure (planned on ~200gph).

Pelia and stuff is floating around from when everything got messed up after main tank had flushing effect (before lowering flow). Will clean this up later.

Using Schultz under mosses, as otherwise the plants moved too much in the current.

The first sections overflow at the sides. There's still good flow for the river.

NOISE. Moss at drain output helps a little.

Shallow planting area is empty because I have not figured out how to keep Anubias in there.

Lighting is 2x13w AHSupply from the main. Expecting JBJ CF this week.

No progress on auto top off system yet.

Will update in a few days.


































Planter experiment has potential I think. If I ever try it again, little planters over the eggcrate instead of a layer of Schultz would be wiser. After no recovery I tossed those plants.


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## czado

Here is first emersed growth:


















everything else still looks bad


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## Phil Edwards

Is that Rotala macrandra?


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## czado

Alternanthera reinecki. That part has died back so maybe it was just some small bit of submerged growth that held on? http://www.lucidcentral.com/keys/APPW/html/alternanthera_images.html

I have begun to see growth from crypt wendtii pockets.


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## czado

Got the lights; full set-up pic.


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## travis

It's finally coming together Joe  This should be interesting to watch develop. Nice work.


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## czado

Thanks to you Travis for all the encouragement off site, and to Phil for all he has posted and Cavan for the same and plants. I hope to post back with interesting growth after I learn.


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## czado

Just an update.

As mentioned earlier I have no mechanical filtration between the main and this tank and think it may be contributing to the ugly going on. I need to get the moss going on the concrete for some pretty.

The crypts in the bottom section are growing from different spots and dying at the same rate. I have begun an emersed setup following Phil and Xemas recent posts, to make sure growth in this tank is not because of the layout and lack of drainage:









Higher up with faster flow they do not get far from this plantlet stage:









P. stellata narrow leaf likes it though:









Anubias barterii var nana petite seems to too: three new leaves in only a short time. Submerged section has Juncus repens, Crypt sp, and Polygonom sp. 









Thanks again.
Joe


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## EDGE

Plants grown emersed need O2 at the roots, not CO2. Unless the water is well oxygenated, having water above the substrate can cause problems such as rotting and algae build up.


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## milalic

so what do you suggest for providing them O2 at the roots?


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## EDGE

You can go with good draining substrate, good water circulation, and an airstone to aerate thewater. You dont really need anything fancy. 

Keeping water level 1" to 2" below substrate works too. 

For emersed grown stem plant, I use gravel with a small amount of peat at the bottom to make it acidic. 

From the last 2 years of experiment, I found that peat is really bad for drainage and can lead to stem rot. I had lilaeopsis growing in a 80% peat base with 1" gravel on top with no problems because of the shallow roots. If I try to grow stem plants in such a mix, it will rot.

I am using hydroton (clay balls) to grow swords. Think of it as a really coarse gravel which allow good circulation to the root. I was getting huge root mass from plant, but the raft design I was using weren't strong enough to keep the pot above the water. This led to massive algae build up at the surface suffocating the new growth. 

Hydroton does not work well with stem plants, it is too corase to keep the stem in place.


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## czado

EDGE,

I believe the water is high in O2 because of pearling in the main tank and the concrete structure should act like a wet/dry; however I do not get pearling from the submerged area of the paludarium and believe I have the poor O2 indicators you have listed. I am farily certain water is not circulating in the planting pockets, and just flows over them. Do you think this would be good for lilaeopsis sp?

Is your cypt potting mix the stem plant mix? Are your emersed crypts on a raft?

Thank you.


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## EDGE

I had the crypts growing on an outdoor raft system, but the growing conditions (i.e. light, ferts, gH/kH, etc) weren't right for them. Not to mention, the algae smother out the new growth. 

I am growing crypts in two different media right now. gravel / peat mix, and hydroton to see which one the crypts like better. I place 2 plant of similar size and type side by side in the tank. They are sitting on the bottom of a 75G tank with a powerhead circulating the water. They get 110 watt PC with DIY mix ferts and a bag of peat in the water. NOTE: I am using mesh pot, and not clay pot to increase flow into the growing medium. 

If you want to test the drainage of a growing media, place the media in a screener or mesh pot and run tap water through it. good draining media will drain almost as fast as the tap water going in.



I can't really say if the condition will be good for lilaeopsis sp. I havent had a plant semi-submersed in a 9 months.


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## raven_wilde

Hey, this set up is really inspiring... could you point me towards any online references you used to build the concrete/foam backdrop? This might be something I want to get myself into.


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## czado

Sure. The biggest resource was the DIY section of cichlid-forum.com. Also you will dig Sullas tank on AquariumAdvice.com. A search of either forums archives for "concrete" or "cement" gives lots of informative threads. I figured if the concept worked for a background, thickening it up for a paludarium would too. I found it easiest to roughly carve individual layers, then siliconed them together before final carving.


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## Phil Edwards

There'll be an article detailing the construction of this in an upcoming TAG.










Regards,
Phil


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## raven_wilde

forgive my ignorance... TAG?


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## Cavan Allen

The Aquatic Gardner

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/tag.html


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## czado

Slowly but surely.









With the main tank









I have not grown anything successfully where the water flows fastest, and just ended up sticking a bunch of trims and hope something grows.


















Right side with Java moss, Crypt walkerii (?), and Hydrocotyle sp.









The Java moss is growing up the sides without training it.









My only successful crypt. I do not know what it is.


















C. wendtii.









H. leucocephala









P. palustris aka "Mermaid weed"









Older pics of L. repens "Rubin"


















The structure kind of acts like a wet/dry, and so is very messy with plant matter from the main. I did not intentionally plant M. tenerum here and have not spread it around. Now everywhere there's a water fall, there's M. tenerum. The red plant is L. repens "Rubin"









Didn't plant the M. umbrosum here. I think it came from the mass of plants I dumped "upstream" a month or so ago.









I thought I got rid of all my Riccia over six months ago and never put it in the paludarium section. Didn't notice this until today.









I think this is R. rotundifolia









So I am not having much success but have hope. I am now spraying once a week with a weak solution of KNO3 and KH2PO4. The water column is ~10ppm NO3, ~3ppm PO4, >40ppm K, 2mL TMG 3*week, 4 dkH, 6.4 pH, >40ppm CO2, 50% water change weekly. Suggestions appreciated.


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## MrSanders

> So I am not having much success but have hope.


 Maybe its more of things arnt turning out exactly the way you invisioned them and your not quite happy with it yet  I think things are looking pretty good! And I would def. be proud of the progress you have made so far. The plants look very happy and healthy for the most part.... Its a neat little set up i love it.... have any critters in there? or is it all plants at this point? Keep working with it, you'll get it shaped up into looking how you want it to.... just a matter of using the plants that grow well for you in the set up and getting it cleaned up a bit and arranged so it looks the way you would like 

Good Luck 
~Matt


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## czado

Thanks Matt  It is all plants save for a couple hitchhiker snails. I really really want poison dart frogs, but am afraid they may leech some toxin that will affect the fish and inverts in the main tank. I have to do a lot of reading on amphibians before moving forward, but I am also considering firebellied newts instead.


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## Sarahpea

Lovely tank czado! I've really enjoyed reading your thread and I can't wait to see what happens to you next.



...I mean what you happen to do next.


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## czado

Thanks!  My goal is to see an aquatic plant flower emersed. It is really amazing and inspring to see pictures of the setups here.


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## Sarahpea

*crosses fingers* We can only hope.


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## Six

im gonna bump this thread! i loved the idea and would really love to see an update. im generating ideas for am emersed set up and from the moss, riccia, and pellia growth you've got, i think im going to do that!


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## DonaldmBoyer

I'm going to bump this again because I would love to see an update! What does it look like now, if you still have it going?


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## creighton

About the poison dart frogs leaching poison: I believe they are poisonous because they eat ants that make them poisonous. If you can get captive bred ones they most likely aren't poisonous. I've heard that having deep pools can be bad when keeping the frogs. Sometimes they fall in and can't get out . If you ever go to the smithsonian zoo in D.C. check out the amazonian exhibit. They have a really cool pond with discus and arawana together  , and a ton of poison dart frogs.


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## czado

Folks,

I did not realize this was still getting traffic. I'm sorry for not updating: I moved to a startup and the past two years have been all work, little play, and no aquariums. This emergent tank/sump and the connected main tank are long since broken down. I have a new emersed paludarium setup going for the past few days (wet.biggiantnerds.com) but the log is not yet in place, if you're interested in what I learned from this project. 

I am thinking of bringing back an emergent sump/tank, though, with the same styrofoam + cement idea. Just not sure yet while I stare at the tank at night with my hands wet and muddy 

Thanks for the interest and all the advice. Apologies for letting it and this thread die <3


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