# Seachem Onyx or ADA Aquasoil



## mlfishman

Im trying to make a decision of one of these substrates. If i do the aquasoil i am going to pass on the powersand as from what ive read am not sure it actually does anything. Im not the type to buy into a a full product line based on hype. I love Amano's tanks, but lets be realistic, the guy is a businessman as well. Why would I use his fertilizers when N is N P is P etc. etc. As Romantic as it is Im not into all that asian hocus pocus. Im actually more into dollars and cents as in getting the most for my money. Im trying to decide if the aquasoil is even worth the extra cash. Ive seen Amano use Seachem Onyx sand before ADA products existed and his tanks came out pretty good. I can get 2 bags of Seachem Onxy sand shipped for $38. Think this is enough for a 29 gallon? I was considering ordering the Aquasoil from jeff when he got more in @ 2 bags for $28 each so thats $56 + shipping which has to be around $20 or more Im assuming. thats $76. Will I notice any advantages to using the Aquasoil? Many a person does claim that they grow plants better in the Aquasoil and can grow plants they werent able to grow before. I am willing to spend hte extra cash on the Aquasoil if I;m convinced its actually worth. hmmmm Im kinda stumped....any help??


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## Raul-7

Seachem Onyx is CaCO3; so it will raise your gH and kH. Aquasoil does the opposite. I'd suggest you make your own Powersand with volcanic pumice, peat, laterite and some carbon; then just use Aquasoil.


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## plantbrain

I suggest the ADA soil, + peat and mulm on the bottom, then just do EI.
Don't add the white pumice etc, it'll just come up when you uproot and looks ugly.

I used one 9 liter bag for the 20 gal, a 29 might need a tad more, say a 9 and 3 liter bag or you may as well have some extra for a small tank project etc later.

The cost should be about the same as the Onyx sand.
I think aesthetically, the ADA amazonia is one of the nicest.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Raul-7

plantbrain said:


> I suggest the ADA soil, + peat and mulm on the bottom, then just do EI.
> Don't add the white pumice etc, it'll just come up when you uproot and looks ugly.


But pumice sinks once it's water-logged?


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## plantbrain

Sure it sinks, right up to the top of the Aqua Soil and there it stays unless you intend to push each grain back down everytime you have to pull something up. Grey large white grains against the dark black/brown makes a a nice gaudy look.

A royal PITA.
And we don't need it to begin with.

Sort of like Heating cables. 
Everyone seen to be all enamoured with those 15 years ago. Took nearly 10 years before people figured it out.
Today, few use them. Generally newbies with too much money thinking more is better.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mlfishman

*thanks*

Thanks again guys. Im going to do the aquasoil straight. Peat & mulm are a given.


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## standoyo

why didn't i read this earlier...spend extra money to spend extra time pushing those bloody with crusts into the AS...

guess, other option is to cover everything with carpet plant!


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## Edward

Both require extra water changes. Get inert substrate and save your time.


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## plantbrain

I did find one person that laid down stainless steel mesh over the powersand layer. This did work well, but you really don't need the powersand to begin with if you dose the water column. The owner agreed.
You have to add something to the water column no matter what.

Raul-7- no the pumic does not float and you cover it with aquasoil to start with the any air bubbles dissolve into the water in a few days or less. 

ADA soils is excellent stuff. I've used inert substrates for 2 decades.
I greatly prefer ADA soil over anything I've ever used. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jsenske

What about the the function of Powersand as a nice porous bottom layer-- excellent for harboring good bacteria? Plus the porosity helps keep circulation good through the substrate- down to the bottom- so far less opportunity for anaerobic conditions to occur. 
So, initial "nutrient shot" issues aside (which I think is not such a bad thing), those are 2 compelling reasons (and part of the methodology of the ADA substrate system) to think about using the Powersand. I would agree that you do not need have to use it to get good results/benefits of Aqua Soil, but the "nutrient" side of PowerSand has been focused on almost solely in terms of determining whether or not to use it, whereas it does perform a additional/greater longterm function. 
As for it coming up when you uproot, I have not had a major problem with that-- I just siphon out the few pieces that do come up with small hose. I uproot very gently and slowly, though-- really taking my time to get the root system out. If you are just yanking plants, I'm sure it's more of a problem, and obviously too if you have more root-based plants (crypts, swords, etc.)


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## standoyo

jsenske said:


> What about the the function of Powersand as a nice porous bottom layer-- excellent for harboring good bacteria? Plus the porosity helps keep circulation good through the substrate- down to the bottom-


i'm consoling myself on that matter...



jsenske said:


> so far leIf you are just yanking plants, I'm sure it's more of a problem, and obviously too if you have more root-based plants (crypts, swords, etc.)


you read my mind...:rain:


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## plantbrain

jsenske said:


> What about the the function of Powersand as a nice porous bottom layer-- excellent for harboring good bacteria? Plus the porosity helps keep circulation good through the substrate- down to the bottom- so far less opportunity for anaerobic conditions to occur.
> 
> 
> 
> In order for any anaerobic conditions to occur in the substrate, you first need a source of organic carbon. Adding a rather non labile form of carbon, peat, is a much slower process and thus does not depress the redox levels(or O2 levels). With good plant root growth, there is no issues, noth that there was to begin with, anaerobic conditions in a substrate.
> 
> I've kept plants a long time, I've never had "anaerobic issues" except if I placed a 1/2 dead aponogeton blub etc down there. Otherwise I've never once had an issue using dozens of substrates.
> 
> Good bacteria, I'm not sure what that means.
> H2S reducers only occur if you have enough organic matter, very low O2 levels/redox levels and an ample supply of SO4.
> 
> But there are many groups of good bacteria that do live under less than aerobic conditions, a good community is a better concept, since they will live and grow/cycle at different redox levels.
> 
> But adding pumic down there is not the solution nor is multi layering of substrates, this last only so long and the top layer gets clogged first anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, initial "nutrient shot" issues aside (which I think is not such a bad thing), those are 2 compelling reasons
> 
> 
> 
> Why might this be a reason vs say....KNO3 and KH2PO4 dosing 2x-3x a week in the start up phase then?
> KNO3/KH2PO4 are easier to vary and administer, cost less and have no aesthetic issues, or long term maintenance issues when you up root.
> You end up having to add them at some point.
> 
> I can make many of the same precise marketing claims that Dupla was famous for with heating cable malarky right here with regards to powersand.
> 
> They said the same things 20 years ago.
> 
> I've not once found any support for anaerobic substrates to be bad or good.
> Plant roots import O2 to the root zone, everyone knows this.
> And we can see good evidence of soil substrates and healthy plants as well as non soil substrates.
> 
> The two grow out tanks I've seen used a stainless steel mesh to keep the powersand down (if you chose to use it) without issue.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## jsenske

Fair enough. You know more than me about such matters, Tom. I'm not into dosing much in the first few weeks-- that's just my style/system, and it works for me. 

I have no compelling case against your comments, other than my personal perception that the more nitrifying bacteria you have in a system, the more stable and healthy that system seems to be. The more places offered for them to propagate, the better (I think). But I could be wrong or they are not necessary in the substrate or something like that. (It's always something when it comes to Powersand-- not so proud winner of this month's "Dubious Product Award") 

I do maintain that some things/products (like Powersand) may offer an advantage or two for the beginner or person who does not participate on forums, nor has a good retail shop with the right advice, nor seeks the types of experienced, researched knowledge offered by experts such as yourself and/or others. That early phase dosing you describe-- very logical and easy if you know about it. These folks want to minimize that aspect of the hobby, and just enjoy the aquaruim as much as possible. That's my perception from talking to people practically everyday in that situation (people who find ADA through the ADG website), not any marketing hype, just a perception-- which is hardly a compelling case for using Powersand, I understand.


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## alexperez

> The two grow out tanks I've seen used a stainless steel mesh to keep the powersand down (if you chose to use it) without issue.


That is a heck of a good idea. But would it affect root growth much?

Thanks Tom!!


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## plantbrain

Alex and Jeff, no, the mesh works super on grow out tanks, AF has several such tanks. George and Steve and I talked about it and I went it and played around, it does work.

Jeff, you might make sure you file this in your routines and methods, it will help if you stick with the PS. 

I think for those that do not analyze things like I or others do, following the directions of a system that works is wise.

As time moves own, the parts that work well appear and the insignificant parts tend to go away. But.......Ps is still a tool and Jeff finds a use for it. 

Not everyone has the same goals/approachs and the PS can be a good tool for a mainteance business understandably. But so is a dosing pump........or some involvement with the client. 

But sometimes things are noty available to you......so you have more tools and options to address issues.

Nothing wrong with that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dennis

plantbrain said:


> I think for those that do not analyze things like I or others do, following the directions of a system that works is wise.


I tried to say that simple sentance in a half page post. That sums up exactly what I was trying to say in Jay's thread.

I agree completely with you Tom, and Jeff. It's all about finding a system that works and provides the plants with what they need.


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## plantbrain

Well, understanding the trade offs each method provides is the useful info we all can benefit from.

I do not believe in faith based aquatic horticulture.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## standoyo

faith is best left to the believers. 
this is the science of substrates...and enquiring minds are eager to know how to differentiate the bs and tested. thanks tom and guys for your efforts and sharing of experiences.

warm regards

stan


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## Cavan Allen

I second what Edward said. I prefer to use inert substrates. I use Flourite. Why?

Flourite works just fine. You don't need anything fancy to grow good plants. They must get what they need one way or another. For me, that means fertilizing the water column right from the start. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm growing an _Eriocaulon sp. 'Matto Grosso'_ in Flourite that is doing very well. A local friend was growing some beautiful _Tonina fluviatilis_ in it too. We use similar fert methods and both have very soft and acidic water.

I use pH controllers and again, already have soft water. I dislike a substrate that interferes with water chemistry one way or another. No Aquasoil or Onyx. I'm careful about my KH measurements and max the co2 out as much as I can.

That works very well and I don't need plants that grow faster than they do. My _Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'_ was there from the beginning in my 44 and outgrew its welcome.

I don't mean to say that my experiences should speak for everyone's, but there you have it.


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## EDGE

Onyx was such a pain to deal with when growing sensitive plants. The kH was always stunting a lot of the plants in the tank. I wouldn't have notice the huge difference in growth from low kH until I accidently drain 90% water from the tank 2 months ago. The sensitive plants exploded for the few days until kH climbed back up to 5+ level. I was getting a rise of 1 kH a day with 20% onyx/ 80% flourite mix. Not exactly a stable environment. I have switched back to plain gravel now and notice I need to dose trace more often without the flourite.


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## Paul Higashikawa

For those having doubts about powersand coming up when uprooting plants, check out what the boys over in Asia are doing:










The wire mesh covers everything except Aquasoil. I recommend stainless steel, but from what I have heard from those people, iron one is just as ok. Using one's own discretion, when it's time to change just do so.

I'm pretty sure some of us are already using this approach. Funny how sometimes sucha simple solution exists for issues we all go nuts about


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## plantbrain

I have an even simpler solution=> don't use powersand.
Then no need for the wire mesh which is yet one more thing to buy, cut(try cutting Stainless steel mesh) fit, etc, for what?
Adding some peat, pumic and NO3?

I mentioned this idea some time ago, others have used similar things.

Cavan,
While I to have grown Tonia and Erio's without issue in flourite, I will say I do have better growth with ADA soils. With HC, the difference is fairly pronounced. With Elatine, there was no difference, with Erio set., not much difference. Rotala green does do better. 
Blyxa has done worse in the ADA subs than Flourite.....not many plants do worse though.

Overall, I think you would like the soil though.
Most folks agree that have tried flourite etc, the aesthetics are big issues for me and usability.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Cavan Allen

> While I to have grown Tonia and Erio's without issue in flourite,





> Overall, I think you would like the soil though.
> Most folks agree that have tried flourite etc, the aesthetics are big issues for me and usability.


So have I. If I'm having no issues, why would I want to change? There's no need to.

My friend and I were talking about this thread today when he stopped by and he said that when he was growing all the _fluviatilis_, his substrate wasn't even all Flourite. Half of it was just plain gravel. From the looks of it, he didn't need better growth either.

I don't really like the looks of Flourite, but for me it's a non-issue. I'll either have it covered up by plants or use a decorative substrate for the bare areas. We collect a local sand for that purpose here that's really nice. Some of the 3M stuff looks good too.


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## Laith

I'm curious: what happens when you uproot plants and end up pulling up the whole AquaSoil layer because you've also pulled up the mesh screen which your roots are thoroughly entangled in?  

For me any possible benefits of layered substrates are far outweighed by the disadvantages. And I've tried a lot of them; dupla, Dennerle, JBL, soil etc.

To each his/her own though. If you're very careful whenever you do tank maintenance then I guess it can work for you. I just hate pussyfooting around with the substrate; if I want to pull a plant to prune it I don't want to spend minutes just trying to get it out of the substrate without disturbing everything and then spending more time pushing surfaced underlayer stuff back under  .

The best results I've gotten so far have been with Flourite. I haven't tried the ADA line yet but when I do it will be without the powersand.


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## mlfishman

*hmm*

i keep seeing this thread i started ongoing daily. However I thing cutting the wire mesh and stuff would be a huge pita. Im shocked no one has come up with some type of flexible mesh to keep layered subs. separate. Precut to tank size. Think on it :der:


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## Paul Higashikawa

Really, that's what it all comes down to: To each his own. There is more than one solution to every problem, just as there is more than one brand of car, of camera, of whatever in life. Do they all work? Sure! Do they all have the same performance? No! But it is nice to know you have different options out there. Preference will change over time. Tastes will change over time. 

Whatever works for you, I say go for it. Also, if there is an interesting idea, go try it. Be bold, be adventurous, and innovate. 

Some people like this way; some people like that way. Do both ways work? Sure. 

As for the mesh, there are all types. Stainless, iron, flexible, etc...Shop around local hardware stores and I'm sure you will find one to your liking. The mesh is a nice idea. Just something to share for those who would like to try. To some, yeah, it might mean tougher time, but to others, it works just fine. All a matter of personal pref. Enough said.


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## plantbrain

Let me ask the question differently, do you think the pumice in PS has *any* use after a month or two?

It is coated with peat. 
Anyone can buy that for.... well....dirt.
From what we have deduced, it has about the same NH4 as AS. 
The other main nutrient difference is the PS has more NO3, somethign we can add to the water column.

Does it work?
Yes, but comapred to a control?
I saw less growth with the PS than without+ adding KNO3 to the water column.

Given the added hassle of a mesh, buying another product, layering, issues with existing tanks where you cannot easily tear the entire tank down(try and add PS to those tanks sometime), it seems much more prudent as well as cheaper, more practical etc...........not to use it to begin with.

Why make more work for yourself when it's not required?
I see little reason to use the PS with AS if you already dose KNO3.
And we have to dose something...........

You can make the argument that it's a "different method, there are many methods to achieve something" yada yada, hogswallop.......

But while that sounds all nice a fuzzy, it is not addressing the debate about the issue.

Does the PS help and is it worth the hassle?
Not one person to date has shown me anything to show otherwise.
Everything I've seen that helps plants grow better in ADA substrates is due entirely to Aqua soil, not the powersand.

Some have made claims it's easier for new people, new people seldom buy ADA stuff here. New people still need to add things(water changes, traces, fish food etc) and make the transition to ADA macros later, and need to see and understand the tank's development well. New people are not going to do that well.

Simply starting off that way to begin with is not an issue.
I'm already adding stuff, what are a couple more items 2-3x a week that tyou will need to add later anyhow?

Seems like a PITA to add the screen, and/or PS.

I can also hit my head against a wall and call it a method and a way to achieve something in my tank also.

Simply because it's an idea, does not mean it's a good one and should be promoted. 

Cavan, you should try it, the ADA soil is quite nice. 
Few would disagree with that. I can make the same argument for plain sand vs Flourite, you saw differences between these two correct?
You'll see at least that same improvement from a higher standard level when comparing AS to Flourite.

It will enhance the ability to grow plants.
Think about it, less issues with transport of nutrients in the root zone.
A good secure supply of NH4, although a low level(more will cause algae).

Why not have nutrients in both locations?
That is the best of both worlds without the mess, cost, hassle of PS.

Unless you have tried both(or all of them discussed here) methods, it's very tough for you to make a case. 

Saying it's better, well what precisely is better? The Soil? The powersand?
You don't know.

Same with comparing the status quo with AS and Flourite.
I've used both for some time. If you have not used ADA AS, then you really do not know either.

I command good control of the water column, that allows me to look at what causes and helps the substrate to perform without water column interferences. I've tried these combinations.

Some folks grew plants well without adding PO4 in the past, but when they added it, the plants did much better. You don't know until you try.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Cavan Allen

> Cavan, you should try it, the ADA soil is quite nice.


No thanks.



> Few would disagree with that.


I'm sure it is.



> I can make the same argument for plain sand vs Flourite, you saw differences between these two correct?


Some, but not a whole lot. It is easy enough to set up a tank with plain gravel and have it do just as well. The next time, I probably will.



> Unless you have tried both(or all of them discussed here) methods, it's very tough for you to make a case.


I never said that one was better than another. What I said was:

*Point One.* My preference is for an *inert* substrate. Again, I don't like anything that inteferes with water chemistry. Ever. I like pH controllers. My water is already very soft. Both of those things preclude me from using a substrate that alters water chemistry as far as I'm concerned.

*Point Two*. What I'm doing now works just fine. You don't need Aquasoil to succeed by anyone's definition. Period. Again, why should I change what I'm doing if it works (not that that's what this thread is really about anyway)? I can't break it down any more than that.

Tough for me to make a case? Nope! Here it is right here. The picture is, as usual, not so great, but you can see what it's growing in because the hairgrass hasn't filled in yet.












> Same with comparing the status quo with AS and Flourite.
> I've used both for some time. If you have not used ADA AS, then you really do not know either.


Yes, Tom, I'm sure you've done it all before. Good for you. I do know what works for me. The guy who started this thread can look at what everyone here has said and make up his own mind. My 2 cents is my 2 cents. That's all. Just like yours.


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## niko

plantbrain said:


> ...pumice ... Anyone can buy that....


What online store sells 2-5 mm. grain size pumice? Yes, I know it's called "agricultural grade" so who sells it?

--Nikolay


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## Paul Higashikawa

Having learned so much from Tom as with anyone else on the forum, I am wondering when we will see his tanks. I am sure it is absolutely wonderful and am look forward to seeing it


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## niko

I think that questions like "is X better than Y" or "X vs. Y" make little sense. 

With good observation and common sense one can have a beautiful tank with almost any equipment, substrate, water parameters, and fertilizers.

--Nikolay


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## Paul Higashikawa

niko said:


> I think that questions like "is X better than Y" or "X vs. Y" make little sense.
> 
> With good observation and common sense one can have a beautiful tank with almost any equipment, substrate, water parameters, and fertilizers.
> 
> --Nikolay


Agreed!


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## plantbrain

niko said:


> What online store sells 2-5 mm. grain size pumice? Yes, I know it's called "agricultural grade" so who sells it?
> 
> --Nikolay


Local garden center, Home Depot etc.
Any Bonsai vendor also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Paul Higashikawa said:


> Having learned so much from Tom as with anyone else on the forum, I am wondering when we will see his tanks. I am sure it is absolutely wonderful and am look forward to seeing it


There's one:


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## Cavan Allen

niko said:


> I think that questions like "is X better than Y" or "X vs. Y" make little sense.
> 
> With good observation and common sense one can have a beautiful tank with almost any equipment, substrate, water parameters, and fertilizers.
> 
> --Nikolay


I agree too!


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## plantbrain

Here's another with plain sand, nothing in the substrate at all other than silica sand.

I'll play devil's advocate and go the other way then.

4 weeks ago the tank was algae cess pool, the tank has no algae, and excellent fish health since we reworked it.

Some of the pics from an open house I did 10 years ago are floating around.
Also plain sand..........

So Cavan, if we follow this issue, why bother with flourite then? You do not like the aesthetic really anyway, you can grow the plants fine without flourite clearly. Sand is cheaper, less rinsing, inifinite types and varieties, wide availability, and unlike Flourite.............silica sand is "inert" chemically, Flourite has CEC and Fe and a number of other nutrients that can be reduced and made available to plants.............

To date the best looking hair grass I've seen was in plain sand.

You have accepted a middle ground with flourite, offering some benefits, yet, not wanting to take that further, nothing wrong with that, but I tend to take the idea all the way to the end.

You do get a better feel for the plants, the methods and the substrate.
I'm suggesting folks try it.

Using something that is better the previous material is nice. 
That's why I switched to flourite, ADA soils are similar. They are adding another level of better plant health and growth.

Some might not like the trade off, but I think most will.

Whether you want to be bothered to use them is more a personal decision, but.............. a "plain sand person" could make the same case against the flourite as you make against the ADA soil.

And many plain sand or sand laterite people made their case back 8-10 years agos..............we still a large number of plain sand tanks that look great.

But many, yourself among them, use flourite today.

I'm just saying in order to better understand something, being able to use several methods, being able to compare them for your own eyes, is very useful.

I keep learning more ways to improve plant health. I do try each method and see about things that may or may not make a difference. 

I suggest other folks do the same and try it.
The Onyx difference with ADA substrate is apparent, I would use ADA soil over the onyx, which was one of my favorites as was flourite at one point as well, as was plain sand and RFUG, as was "dirty sand", as was having a good fish load was if you wanna go far back enough.

Each had an advantage that my plants liked more.
Some plants do not appear to benefit, but many do with ADA substrates.

HC is certainly one of them. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr

















Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Cavan Allen

> So Cavan, if we follow this issue, why bother with flourite then?


I had some. That's why.



> Using something that is better the previous material is nice.


It's not better. At least not to me and my situation. Just a different way of doing things. Why do I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here?

PS. _Hemianthus callitrichoides_ does just fine in Flourite. Or floating for that matter.


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## plantbrain

I have no issue with you using flourite and sticking with it for the reason's stated. I do very well with it also. You can also use horse manure, no need to beat the animal. 

But I am curious and seeking to improve things/horticultural methods. That is never ending. I have grown HC in the Flourite and also the ADA soil, there is simply no comparison. We have many folks here that also have the same experiences, 20 club members or more have this stuff. Everyone without fail says the same thing. Top scapers to relative newbies. I had my own issues with it and relucantance also, I do with most "new" substrates.

There's nothing wrong with trying new methods, that's how you improve your skills and understand what helps. You can also help other people much better if you use various methods and products, should they want Flourite, onyx, ADA soil, or plain old sand...........

Since there are so many methods that all work, knowing how a why each works well is an advantage...........then you know both sides and can tailor advice to whatever the person seeks.

Like the plants, I prefer to grow.
Not everybody does nor wants to, nothing wrong with that, but that is not me. Some love their non CO2, some Marine, some high tech as they can get it. Some love all of the methods. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## IUnknown

Cavan,
I'm with you with the pH controller and water column issues. I can't live without my pH controller. But I want to try AS and plan to try what Tom recommended in this post, just have to adjust the controller to deal with the softness. Still need to research if people have had problems doing so though.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...p?t=3642&page=2&highlight=aquasoil+controller.


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## Cavan Allen

I would feel *VERY* uncomfortable using a controller with a substrate that affects water chemistry. I'd go with one way or another, not a combination of both. I have a feeling that doing that might be the most complicated and risky of any method.

If you really want to try Aquasoil, I'd ditch the controller.


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## Cavan Allen

Tom, 

Can we just agree to disagree? I'm perfectly happy (and successful) with what I'm doing. Thanks.


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## plantbrain

Sounds fine with me
Your point about no pH impact is good and one I've used as well.
But how much does pH matter?

Just questions and thoughts I myself have asked and worked through. 
I'd suggest ditching the pH controller function, use a monitor perhaps.

But some love their pH controllers. Some love CO2 24/7, some don't.

My aesthetic as well as the methods are fairly similar to ADA.
While I have gotten excellent results with Onyx sand, I've found it much easier to grow plants with the ADA soil.
I've used both extensively but have less long term experience with ADA soils, but I have 9 tanks, so I have enough tanks to make decent generalization, sfbaaps folks also have a lot of it these days.

Do not get me wrong Cavan, I like flourite a lot. 
But as we do the hobby, some folks like to try new things and see if they help. This is one such product.

I'm not supporting the rest of the stuff in their line of substrates etc, because I have not found they have much impact.

Same with the ferts, KNO3 works quite well.
I'm glad you are growing the plants in Flourite since I've switched over but still did great with those same plants other folks claim you cannot grow without ADA soil;, I don't agree with them about that, you and myself are proof of that. I welcome your insistence!!! 

I do not like to say so and so need a certain substrate to growe a certain plant. I do not believe that.

I doubt you do either, so on that we do agree.

IUnknown, 
I can show you a way to do CO2 without a KH or a pH.
It's a back door method.
You can use the pH/Kh relation initially, but not later.
I've ran my tanks at no measured KH at all, less than 3ppm.

This is why Amano does not add CO2 at night also, neither do I and I never have added it at night, and never lost any fish either........I did kill a tank with a pH controller, so have two LFS owners, so has Amano.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Nick

Ha Ha! Sorry Cavan, looks like you just can't get the last word in here!! LOL!


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## Cavan Allen

That doesn't bother me.


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## awrieger

To answer the original question of this thread of which to buy, I used Onyx Sand in my 4x2x2 when I set it up 5 months ago and I am already planning on replacing it with either ADA Aquasoil or the new 'boulder-less' EcoComplete as soon as I can.

Two reasons:

1. The grey bitumen look is as ugly as sin.
2. My Sterbae Corydoras have all lost their barbels on the sharp edges of this stuff.

I didn't mind the look of it to begin with as I planned to cover it all with a hairgrass lawn. Judge for yourself. here it is 4 days after setup (sorry, I don't know how to insert thumbail images here):










And 6 weeks after setup:










So the plants do indeed grow well in this stuff. And the KH rise I experienced wasn't much of a problem either. KH out of my tap is about 3 to which I usually raise to 5.5, but the Onyx raised it even more to around 8-9. So I stopped upping the KH myself and it steadied at around 7 or so. But that was only for about the first three months. Now the Onyx seems to be mostly inert and I've had to go back to artificially increasing it again to get 5.5, so the Onyx appears to be having little effect now.

But I've since removed all the hairgrass due to a losing battle with cladophora algae, and d**n this substrate is an eyesore. Close-up it looks like the little rock chips at the bottom of a granite quarry. Not a natural look for a planted tank imo.










As much as I like the look of ADA Aquasoil, I'm leaning towards the new finer grade EcoComplete right now beacuse I'm worried that with a tap KH of only 3, ADA will send it to 0 so I'lll have to up it myself with even more KH-up than I do now. And I don't want to be switching my CO2 off overnight to be on the safe side. Having to take action to protect your fish from the substrate itself seems a bit of negative selling point to me. "Here, this stuff's great, but make sure you switch your CO2 off or it may kill your fish" doesn't sound too good to me!


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## plantbrain

I've never found any CO2 related issues due to ADA soil.

All you do is measure the tap's KH, see what pH drop is required.
Do a large water change, then drop the pH to that level(say 1.0pH units).

Then leave it, the CO2 bubble rate alone and stable.

This works well. 

Since you claim to be concerned about your fish's health, you should turn the CO2 off at night, doesn't matter what type of substrate you have.......that is if you are concerned about your fish...........

We add CO2 for the plants, not for pH control/stability or anything other than for a fertilizer for the plants.

Fish really are not happy with a long term high chronic level of CO2 unless it's also combined with high O2 levels, but at night this does not occur except in a few tanks with low fish loads and very high plant production rates.

I'd much rather have fish exposed to 10 hours of high CO2 in conjuction with high O2 levels to off set the higher CO2.

At night plants do not use CO2. 

So as far as health of the livestock, this is a more prudent method and it also is easier to add more CO2 for the plants than the 24/7 method.

I'm not saying 24/7 does not work, what I'm saying is that is easier and you have much more wiggle room, especially at higher CO2 dosing rates, before fish health is affected and it's less stressful to the fish.

I've used CO2 for 15 years and have never killed a fish and have used this off at night method since the start. Amano also does this same method and has strong words against adding CO2 at night. 

But what does he and I know............

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## awrieger

You have a good point, Tom, and you've talked about this before.

About how in nature, the pH levels swing between day and night anyway and it's basically part of the fish's natural daily lives, so why not in our tanks? But I just can't get my head around that in our tanks, the CO2 levels are magnitudes higher than in nature, and hence so would be the pH swings. So I've always preferred to lean towards the stability factor.

But I'll give your recommendation a go. I discarded my controller months ago and have just been running the CO2 continually 24/7, so I'll have to re-attach the solenoid again (so I can use a timer).

I'm actually not quite understanding your instructions here though:



plantbrain said:


> All you do is measure the tap's KH, see what pH drop is required.
> Do a large water change, then drop the pH to that level(say 1.0pH units).
> 
> Then leave it, the CO2 bubble rate alone and stable.
> 
> This works well.


So if my tap is KH 3 and pH 8.0, and i want pH 6.5 (about 30-40ppm CO2), I do what? The ADA soil will drop the KH to 0 anyway, won't it, so how do I control the tank pH using the CO2 if there's no KH?

Are you saying to base it purely on the tap readings and not the tank (with the Aquasoil)? I'm totally confused as to how that would work, sorry!


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## ianiwane

It will not drop your kH to zero. The aquasoil does not seem to drop the kH below 2. Several people that I have talked to have experienced the same thing. I have soft water as well, is it about 3 kH and gH. I use aquasoil in my tanks with no problems.


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## awrieger

Thanks, ianiwane. I really do want to try Aquasoil, so that alleviates my only concern about it.

So I can still increase the KH up to 5.5 like I'm doing now? Or will the ADA keep compensating and bringing it down to 2? Neutralize any KH-up I add, I mean?


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## plantbrain

Say the difference to get a CO2 level of 30ppm is 1.0 pH drop, do that.

Add enough CO2 to drop 1.0pH unit etc or whatever amount that you are after.

Look, I don't not have any issues getting enough CO2 into my tanks, nor does Amano, nor Does Jeff and Mike Senske nor most of the folks using ADA products.

If folks think we do not know what we are doing, heaven help us all.
I think this is much more a fabricated issue folks that naysayers rather than actually trying the product out themselves and seeing if it actually is a significant problem.

Which it isn't.

If they don't believe me, then they can try it and see for themselves, if they are unwilling to do that as well, they should not discuss it further. Arguing/debating with the ignorant that have no experience with it and that don't not want to learn is rather pointless.

I use very soft water, around a Kh of 1, there's actually no need to have any KH, if there is enough CO2, the KH is not a nutrient and has little role. Many natural waters have virtually no KH and there are plants there.

All a KH does is allow you to measure the CO2 via the pH/Kh relationship.
But that also assumes that all the KH is carbonate and that the influence on pH is due only to CO2 and KH.

If you look around, you'll see all sorts of whacky CO2 levels that folks now have that would supposedly kill the fish, 100-200ppm ranges, but fish are fine and plant growth is good.

So I'm not sure there is a great deal of utility in the pH/Kh method for CO2 determination. I stopped using it on my own tanks and simple dial it in based on the pH/Kh and then slowly add more till the plants pearl well after 1-2 hours of lights on.

I've never lost a fish to CO2 gassing.

But this needs done slowly over a few days till you get the right amount for the plants.

Every tank is different as is every plant, so visually is one of the better ways and certainly CO2 needs tweaked to maximize the tank.

Just like other tiny fractions of ferts like N, P, K, Carbon is 40-45% of the biomass, we might want to really look to the plants for good results and less at testing to maintain a certain amount.

Make the observation, *then* you test.
Not the other way around.

This way you will know what pH target to hit if you desire a reference in the future for the tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dennis

In an ADA substrate tank, a pH drop of 1.0 from the tap water to the tank water would be a lot more than 30ppm CO2.

I would assume one needs to take a pH reading from a rested sample of tank water and then shoot for a 1.0pH drop. Is that correct? Why do you need to know the tap pH to do that?


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## jsenske

I would add that the tap water in Japan-- where ADA substrate was developed-- is also much softer/lower pH than many here in the US and ADA substrate does not drop them "too low"/ into the 0 range or anything.


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