# Go Big!



## Adam C

So a few weeks ago I picked up a 48"x72" 5 shelf rack that I am using to do some emmersed culturing Of the 5 shelves, 2 are almost full. For the lighting, I suspended t8 fixtures from the shelves. One fixture is a 4xt8 over the taller humidity domes, and the other is a 2 bulb fixture. When I do get around to setting up the 2 or 3 other shelves I will go with one more of each fixture.

Its been almost 3 weeks since I first set it up and the plants are doing amazing (most have only been in there a week). So far, the flora list includes Lindernia Rotundifolia, Nesaea Crass. Red, Limnophila Aromatica, HC, pogostemon helferi, flame moss, Ludwigia Rubin, bacopa myriophylloides, Ludwigia Brevipes, pogostemon erectus, hygro. siamensis, and ludwigia senegalensis.

I have placed a few orders for some new plants and I intend on putting some of them into emmersed conditions once they arrive. Others will go into some of the many tanks we have to see how they all do under different conditions.

Anyways, enjoy the pics and I hope to have more for you soon.


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## neilshieh

nice! is that third picture of your ludwigia senegalensis? any closer pictures? i could never get it to grow well emersed for me


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## Cavan Allen

Very nice. You might consider opening the vents a little as things adapt; you probably don't need that much humidity for a lot of things and are more likely to see their full emersed form that way. A useful trick is to get a little _Hygrophila difformis_ and grow that; if it grows leaves that are shaped like the submersed ones, it's too humid.


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## Adam C

Thanks Cavan, I didn't know how some of the species would respond so I wanted to get as wet as I could to start em. Once things have settle in, I'd like to decrease humidity a little.



Cavan Allen said:


> Very nice. You might consider opening the vents a little as things adapt; you probably don't need that much humidity for a lot of things and are more likely to see their full emersed form that way. A useful trick is to get a little _Hygrophila difformis_ and grow that; if it grows leaves that are shaped like the submersed ones, it's too humid.


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## Adam C

Surprisingly, it seems to be responding better to emmersed conditions than it did being placed in a medium or a high tech tank. I will try to get more pics soon, although the lindernia looks a lot better than the senegalensis, lol



neilshieh said:


> nice! is that third picture of your ludwigia senegalensis? any closer pictures? i could never get it to grow well emersed for me


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## Cavan Allen

Adam C said:


> Thanks Cavan, I didn't know how some of the species would respond so I wanted to get as wet as I could to start em. Once things have settle in, I'd like to decrease humidity a little.


Good plan. Another reason not to too humid is the possibility of mold.


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## neilshieh

Cavan Allen said:


> Good plan. Another reason not to too humid is the possibility of mold.


mold is a huge problem just letting you know. you can grow mosses at the surface of the soil though, mosses secrete natural fungicides


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## greenglow

Do you get any algea covering the surface of the soil that you use?


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## Adam C

It hasn't been up that long, but so far no algae. Did have some mold break out on HC. All affected plants were thrown. Since then its being highly vented at night with vents open during the day. Humidity is still high.


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## Adam C

*New pics!*

I wanted to post some updated pictures and show everyone some of the plants. The lindernia rotundifolia has absolutely exploded with growth. In fact, this morning I got our first lindernia flower. Quite pretty I might add.

The species in the pics below are lindernia rotundifolia variegated, limnophila aromatica, ludwigia senegalensis, and hygrophila corymbosa var siamensis.





































Anyways, just wanted to share some shots (and have an excuse to play around with the camera and figure it out a little more). I hope to get more pics up soon.

~ Adam


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## joshvito

great setup. where did you get the humidity domes?


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## Adam C

I suppose you could call it your LHS; Local Hydroponic Store. Fortunately we have 3 or 4 here in town so price hunting was easy. It also turns out the cheapest place is the closest! The domes run about $6 and the trays about $2.50. There are also shorter domes that are far cheaper, but quality of larger domes is worth the extra few dollars.


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## asukawashere

Lindernia flowers are really pretty, aren't they? One of my favorites for sheer color contrast. You should try L. grandiflora sometime; the flowers have an even more intense purple.

Excellent job with the L. senegalensis, too. That's a hard species to keep going!


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## Cavan Allen

It looks like things are still converting. The _Limnophila_ will eventually grow greener, opposite leaves. _L. senegalensis_ will also not be as red. But it's looking good though!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Adam C,

I didn't see any Eleocharis 'Belem' in any of your pictures. Would you like some that I have grown emersed? I have about 50 plants that I just thinned out of my emersed growth project this afternoon. We could do a swap if you would like.


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## neilshieh

yeah check your local hydroponics store.
@Adam I'm so jealous of your ludwigia sengalensis! i've tried on 3 separate occasions and i've never been able to get it going :/
your limnophila aromatica looks amazing! I'd be interested in buying a stem or two or trading for them. lmk!


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## Adam C

I love the flower! I wasn't expecting any flowers at this point; its only been three weeks since these were planted (from a submerged state). The following day 3 more flowers opened up.

Much appreciated with the l. senegalensis. Its been finicky in some of the submerged set ups but you wouldn't know it from its growth emmersed. VERY happy to see it doing well.



asukawashere said:


> Lindernia flowers are really pretty, aren't they? One of my favorites for sheer color contrast. You should try L. grandiflora sometime; the flowers have an even more intense purple.
> 
> Excellent job with the L. senegalensis, too. That's a hard species to keep going!


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## Adam C

Thanks Cavan!

Many things are converting very fast (lindernia, senegalensis, H. corymbosa siamensis). I think part of the reason the L. senegalensis has been doing so well is because the source I acquired from gets it from SE Asia - I would think emmersed conditions. Any other time I've gotten from the same source, the leaves will drop to convert to submerged growth.



Cavan Allen said:


> It looks like things are still converting. The _Limnophila_ will eventually grow greener, opposite leaves. _L. senegalensis_ will also not be as red. But it's looking good though!


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## Adam C

I wanted to take a few minutes and give everyone an update as well as share some pictures.

Almost everything has being doing excellent. I've been having trouble with bacopa myriophylloides converting but it seems that stems are finally producing some side shoots. Hopefully they will do better now.

As everyone has stated, mold and fungus can definitely become issues! LOL. I acted quick and the fresh smell of soil has been restored to the grow pantry  In case you are wondering, I simply diluted normal H2O2 with water and applied it foliar feeding style. Some plants did not like this at all, but damage was done to leaves that had began to drop. Almost every plant is now doing better since the spray.

I also followed the spray up this morning with a micros, water, and H2O2 watering. (~ 1/5 H2O2 4/5 H2O)

I got a little bored this morning so I decided to rig a DIY co2 system for the top rack. Its only been on there a few hours, but I'm under the impression I will see results soon. I have 2x 3L bottles running individually to two grow trays each. We'll see how it goes.

Well, before I go rambling, I should cut it short and share some new pics! The first pic is of the set as it looks today. The second pictures is of p. helferi. It did not like the H2O2 spray but it looks a lot happier today. Finally is flame moss that has gone crazy. I didn't start with very much so to see it grow this fast is exciting.

Thanks everyone for your comments!




























~ Adam


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## greenglow

how long did you have the lindernia rotundifolia emersed before it flowered for you?


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## Adam C

It took about 2 weeks to unintentionally flower. 



greenglow said:


> how long did you have the lindernia rotundifolia emersed before it flowered for you?


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## Zapins

I don't know how this thread slipped my attention for so long but I'm glad I finally found it 

Always nice to see a new emersed setup get started. 

I've never had good luck with Pogostemon helferi in emersed setups, it always seems to dry out and shrivel at the edges.


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## neilshieh

I agree with zapins, the only times i've seen people successfully grow downoi emersed was in super high humidity setups which was basically completely enclosed and had a heater or warm temps or a fogger. 
I've had mixed results with downoi, in my 6 gallon current emersed setup, the downoi grows but it's more elongated and not compact and the leaves are flat and not crinkled. 
in my previous 46 gallon emersed tank done zapins style with heaters and misters, the downoi stayed stunted and yellowed but grew. imo it's one of those plants that is best grown submersed kinda like marsilea sp.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi all,

Neil is correct, it does like high humidity and good light. It also likes something else. Christel Kasselmann came over from Germany and did a presentation for GSAS last fall. We explained the problems that many of us plantheads in the club were having problems growing Pogostemon helferi and she gave us some help.

-Roy


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## Zapins

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi all,
> ...and she gave us some help.
> 
> -Roy


And that help was...? Left us hanging! What did she advise?


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## Adam C

The downoi results have been mixed. It seemed to be doing well until I developed a little BGA in the soil and gave everything a very dilute h2o2 spray. Downoi did not appear to like this. I moved a couple back to submerged conditions and those melted within 36hrs. The others remain in emmersed conditions and they seem to be doing better a week later.

As has been stated, they definitely love high humidity. But Roy, what else does downoi like? Please enlighten us : )


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## neilshieh

LOL well that was anticlimatic... or perhaps it's a club secret? 
im going to venture a guess it's how hard/soft the water is? though i always hear stories of how some people don't even try and it grows like a weed for them and others try but fail. 
i even vaguely remember a member on here growing them like palm trees ound:


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

You know I left you hanging on purpose don't you........lol!!

Christal told us a little about where she collected this plant.....the key was the water color was blue with mineral content! Tests taken at the location indicated moderately hard water.

Here in Seattle many of us have very soft water (<2.0 dGH) and we were having no success with P. helferi. Once I started adding some Seachem Equlibrium to my water my success with downoi increased substantially. For my emersed growth I have mixed up a 20 ounce bottle of water with 1/8 teaspoon of Equilibrium and 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) and use that along with my fertilizer solution to water my P. helferi. Hope this helps!

Picture to be posted later.


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## asukawashere

...Well, that's certainly odd to hear! Everyone seems to grow downoi in soft water setups; I'd never guess hard water was the key. Interesting tip, Roy (and well worth the cliffhanger, if only for the shock value).

Although, that being the case, I still never had luck with it, and my water's liquid rock. The tap water hardness here is in the 15-18+ dGH range. On the other hand, our water's more likely to be reddish from iron than blue with...whatever makes water blue. (Copper? Manganese? Overwhelming sorrow?)

...But then again, it could just have been transplant shock that did it in for me. I never could keep it alive very long at all. XD


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## K Randall

Yes, P. helferi ONLY grows in one hard water river system in Thailand, as far as we know to date. (the river drains into the Kai Rive of "Bridge Over..." fame, but there is now a HUGE lake behind a hydroelectric dam, which probably has reduced the habitat for this plant, though it is prolific in areas where it does grow)

Here are some photos from the wild, showing the blue/hard water. You can also see that the plants are not particularly comfortable emersed... this really is when the stress causes them to flower and set seed. Notice, also, that the only place you find these plants is growing in small cracks and crevasses in the rock. The strap-like leaves are an unusual form of Cryptocoryne crispatula. 

Those of you who attended the AGA convention may remember Niels Jacobsen telling us some interesting information about this particular form.

pH was 8.0
KH and GH both 7°
Water temp.: 68° F
Air temp.: 73F (remember, this is in the mountains!)

These plants have a very short growing season, as they must grow their leaves, flower and set seed before the next rainy season/flood comes and rips all the leaves off. (though we suspect they are NOT necessarily annuals, but leave their roots behind in these rocky crevasses) I have seen photos of this biotope taken by Claus Christensen at high water, where it is just a mass of churning brown water which COMPLETELY covers the large bush seen in the biotope photo.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Karen,

Thank you for the confirmation! I believe Christal said you were with here during that trip; I know from the excellent presentations you have done for us at GSAS that you have made several expeditions with her.

Thanks,
-Roy


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## K Randall

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Karen,
> 
> Thank you for the confirmation! I believe Christal said you were with here during that trip; I know from the excellent presentations you have done for us at GSAS that you have made several expeditions with her.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Roy


Yes, Christel and I have travelled together for the past 5 years. (we just got back from Kerala, India, which was a very interesting trip) I believe she and I are the only people to have been lucky enough to be able to photograph the P. helferi site in flower, though a number of people have been there.


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## K Randall

asukawashere said:


> ...Well, that's certainly odd to hear! Everyone seems to grow downoi in soft water setups; I'd never guess hard water was the key. Interesting tip, Roy (and well worth the cliffhanger, if only for the shock value).
> 
> Although, that being the case, I still never had luck with it, and my water's liquid rock. The tap water hardness here is in the 15-18+ dGH range. On the other hand, our water's more likely to be reddish from iron than blue with...whatever makes water blue. (Copper? Manganese? Overwhelming sorrow?)
> 
> ...But then again, it could just have been transplant shock that did it in for me. I never could keep it alive very long at all. XD


That's MUCH harder water than we found the plants in. That IS liquid rock.<g> The places we've sampled with water THAT hard have had very few plants, just calcareous algae.

It's the calcium carbonate in the water that makes it blue. You see this in many places. BTW, the Pogostemon site also had much more iron in the water than we typically see, (often, it's unmeasurable in the water column) but that doesn't affect the color of the water there.


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## Adam C

Well, the downoi that was in the hydroponic set up is pretty much a goner. I did some testing on the soil and water and found that the soil was bringing the r/o water down to about a PH of 6.2. I think next time I attempt this plant, I will do so in a (likely lime) buffered soil. Once I play around a little bit more, I'll post some info about what I've found. 

@Karen

Thank you so much for sharing with us. I love the weed when its flowering.


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## Adam C

Its been a little bit since I've posted an update so I thought I'd share yet again.

Everything took a little dip about 10 days ago. Apparently, they were eating through fertilizers faster than anticipated. I've increased dosing and have instituted an h2o2 spray down once a week (and watering with h2o2) to prevent mildew, mold, and fungus. So far, I have not noticed any issues with the current species. 

The plants did not appear to like it when humidity was decreased so the domes remain closed during the day with DIY co2 running to each tray.

In a week or two I will be setting up a third shelf in the system for more stem plants. The lighting will be a 4xt8 fixture running 128w. I will be using DIY co2 on this shelf as well. Not sure if it has increased growth, but that could also be as a result of the nutrient issue. 

So far the current species are:

Ammania senegalensis
Bacopa myriophylloides
Ludwigia brevipes
Ludwigia senegalensis 
Lindernia rotundifolia 'variegated'
Limnophila aromatica
Ludwigia repens sp.(? Possibly Rubin)
Persicaria 'kawagoeanum'
Nesaea crassicaulis 'red'
Pogostemon erectus
Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis'
Rotala 'mini' type 1
Eriocaulon parkeri
Taxiphyllum 'flame'
Hemianthus callitrichoides
Eleocharis 'belem'
Hydrocotyle sp. 'Japan'


And then the ones I intend on putting in the new shelf:

Bacopa salzmannii
Bacopa sp. 'Japan'
Limnophila repens
Rotala sp. 'Bangladesh'
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
Persicaria sp. "sao paulo'
Rotala 'mini' type 2

I hope to get some pics up soon, but nothing all that exciting is taking place. Its kinda like watching plants grow ; ) Maybe once the new shelf is up!

~ Adam


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## Adam C

Well, long time no post . I decided to go ahead and set up the third shelf yesterday. I took some cuttings and right now they're transitioning fairly well. I just wanted to share some pics with ya'll.

Enjoy!

~ Adam


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## K Randall

Neat set-up! This is something I'd love to play with some time. When I'm retired. and have plenty of time. And don't want to travel any more.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Adam C,

I hope the plants you got have transitioned well!


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## Adam C

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Adam C,
> 
> I hope the plants you got have transitioned well!


Some did better than others. I found out that the E. 'belem' is much more tolerant of h2o2 than hydrocotyle 'japan' lol. Right now the 'belem' is doing well, the salzmannii has transitioned nicely and is starting to fill in. I'll post some pics in my next post. : ) Thanks again

~ Adam


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## Adam C

Been 13 days since my last update and boy have things grown.

I've been able to add in some more plants and upgrade lighting on one of the shelves so now there are 3x 4xt8 fixtures (one per shelf) Wattage so far is at 12x32w :crazy: Good news is that electricity is cheap here in TX and weather has been pretty much awesome so temps aren't bad.

Some plants failed terribly upon first emmersed attempt. L. inclinata vert. 'pantanal', and rotala bangladesh looked okay for awhile but fizzled out. Others like bacopa 'Japan' and salzmannii have transitioned very nicely. Same for limnophila repens. I also added Ludwigia 'Atlantis' and hygro sunset to the list. So far so good with them.

On a different note, TX has been fortunate to have had some really nice weather (outside the random hail a few weeks ago and cold the last few nights). Its been so nice here that we actually had a hibiscus bloom in January and one of the random emmersed tubs I have is getting R. rotundifolia flowers.

I have a few more projects in the works and hope to get some pictures up soon. Until then, here are some of the newest pics of things:


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## Tattooedfool83

Any updates on this?


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## Adam C

I'll post some updates soon, but as a teaser: I set up another rack  and the pond has exploded despite the 105 degree days.

~ Adam

Ludwigia inclinata 'Curly' outside


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## Tattooedfool83

Wow man, amazing. I look forward to the updates


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## Adam C

So it has been quite awhile since I posted any updates on everything. Thanks to Tatooed giving me a reason, I decided to take some new pics and tell ya'll a little bit about what's been going on with everything.

I'll start out back with the 6'x3' pond. Everything has done amazingly well. I've introduced quite a few new species over the last few months, many of which surprised me in how well they did. Some of the newest species added include R. Bangladesh, Hygro Tiger, Bold, and Brown, and L. inclinata 'Curly'. What I found most amazing about the pond is that despite our extreme heat (we were having days well over 100), plants are still growing like crazy. I took water temps on some of those days and water temp was over 100 as well (the pond isn't deep).




























The indoor set ups have done amazing well despite high humidity levels. One of the more curious results is that mold and powdery mildew seem very species specific. Most trays have 2 or more species in them. I have had several species experience die-backs due to mold or powdery mildew outbreaks. What is interesting however, is that other species in the same tray are unaffected.

Anyways, the trays did great so I decided to set up another rack upstairs and I'm slowly acquiring new species to fill it up (btw I have plenty of space if you have something interesting  ) One change I have made is increased evaporation by leaving the trays open about an inch on each end. I will be tweaking humidity levels to see what affect I have.

New Rack









Old Rack









And we found a really cheap ($10) greenhouse at Biglots and figured why not. We'll be using it in natural sunlight to grow crypts, anubias buces etc.










~ Adam


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## Tattooedfool83

How often do you add water to the pond? And I was looking online at that same greenhouse. For the price how can't you buy it. Awesome update man. Do you have a lot of crypts already?


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## Adam C

Pond can hold about 175g or so. I don't need to top it off more than 2-3x a month.

That's exactly what we said when we went looking for clearance pots there. $10? Sure, I'll give it a try. I flipped it upside down and attached the shelves with zip-ties btw. It allowed me to get the lowest shelf closer to the window.

I have a couple variant stock piled but tbh I need a lot more of the harder to find ones lol and Thanks!

~ Adam



Tattooedfool83 said:


> How often do you add water to the pond? And I was looking online at that same greenhouse. For the price how can't you buy it. Awesome update man. Do you have a lot of crypts already?


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## Tattooedfool83

Yeah, that flamingo has my eye. But $80-$120 a plant it's far down the road for me. Haha. My goal is to have a 55 gallon crypt only tank. Eventually that is. Great set up. Te pins is awesome. What is ur winter temps?


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