# Rams - Are they easily stressed?



## Borntofish (Nov 30, 2007)

Hi All,
I recently purchased a pair of gold rams and a pair of blue rams. All stock looked very healthy and happy at the store. However, within 12 hours of putting them in the tank they all developed ick. I called the store to discuss why they sold fish infested w/ ick and they told me that rams stress very easy during shipping and water acclimation and commonly develop ick. They suggested to raise my temp and treat with Aquarsol and they should be fine. Of course, all 4 of them died within a week. The other fish I purchased that day are doing fine and luckily none of the resident fish caught it. I have 75 gal planted tank that is well establish w/ healthy fish and plants so I know it was not my water, etc. Do you agree w/ LFS?? I love the rams and want to try them again, definitley a quartine tank this time though. Any thoughts??


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Unfortunately, rams sold in stores these days are often very weak due to hormones and techniques used to "color them up" prematurely in the breeding farms. The pet store is correct that transporting and acclimatizing fish can stress them and cause them to develop Ich (although it's got to be present in the water for them to catch it) but any previously healthy, strong fish won't die if treated properly (as evidenced by your other fish surviving). I've given up on store bought blue rams, since they always die out on me. If you want to keep rams that live for more than a few months (or days) many suggest buying them from a reputable hobbyist who has lines descended from wild caught fish. They're often prettier and hardier. Good luck!


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## wi_blue (Apr 5, 2005)

I would have to agree with DJKronik57. The only luck I had with GBRs was with a pair that came from a local hobbiest and even they didn't live through the stress of moving cities.  Good luck.


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## bratyboy2 (Feb 5, 2008)

i got four from aquabid. they came from NY and i live here in ohio and they were shipped 2 day. the only thing that happened was that one male got a bubble eye, which, im working on and the other fish are perfect. look for BLUERAM06 on aquabid and bid on there fish they are amazing people to work with. tell them fishboyfromohio sent you.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

1. always QT.
2. Probably the most disappointing fish I've ever had were GBRs. They drop dead for no reason. I won't get them again, pretty as they are.


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

Borntofish said:


> Hi All,
> I recently purchased a pair of gold rams and a pair of blue rams. All stock looked very healthy and happy at the store. However, within 12 hours of putting them in the tank they all developed ick. I called the store to discuss why they sold fish infested w/ ick and they told me that rams stress very easy during shipping and water acclimation and commonly develop ick.


What was your acclimation procedure? No matter what people say about ich it is always possible to get it- no tank is completely free of it. People let the tanks run bare and it really does nothing unless you go through stages upon stages of QT before adding fish. Even then, it's useless. Anyways my point is don't overthink getting ich. It is 100% brought on by stress. If the fish looked great at the store and weren't showing it, then it was the acclimation procedure. It just wasn't good enough for that particular fish, or it's the water you put them in. As stated they are picky fish with very weak immune systems. If you plop them in a tank, yup, you'll have issues. Even if you acclimate them.

The LFS was right in saying it's not their fault- unless of course they told you they were easy fish to keep, then well, they were wrong. Best thing to do is ask or do research before you buy. Stores can only offer so much info-they don't have biologists on staff in most places.

Anyways, raising the temp will help as will adding some good foods into their diet (frozen or live). Flakes aint gonna cut it. You gotta boost the immune system. That also means dumping in chemicals is not going to help with the immune system. If you want to use chemicals, QT them.

GL


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## Borntofish (Nov 30, 2007)

Hi Everyone - thank you for your time and responses. Very useful info indeed!


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I really don't think it's your fault presuming you've got normal parameters. I've seen discus and apistos live through high KH/pH water just fine. Drop the KH out and you'll get spawns. In the same water that I spawn apistos, I've seen rams die repeatedly. If the store alters their water chemistry from tap, then they should be telling you, so it's still their fault.

To be honest, you can thank fish farms in third world countries that raise these fish in antibiotic baths, pump them full of hormones, overcrowd them, then ship them out in masses.

I'm getting ready to make a fairly major post on this issue. I'll probably name a specific wholesaler that supplies a lot of the northwest with nasty rams, and encourage others to figure out which wholesalers are bringing in these sickly fish. Rams weren't always this way, and the F1's of wild caught still aren't.

-Philosophos


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

You're walking a very fine line now. "Third world counties" may need to use hormone to color up their fish to be able to compete with other fish farms. It's a pretty common practice to do that in order to sell your fish over someone else.
Saying all these fish are from third world countries is a little bit of a generalization and kind of crass. I guess, who are we to say they shouldn't do a legal activity to make money for themselves? You would be better off educating customers not to buy them than to call out wholesalers. If it was an illegal activity, like cirumventing a CITES regulation or something, then heck yeah, tell the world. But we're talking about people trying to make money from uneducated buyers. Can't blame them.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but think about the big picture here.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Six said:


> You're walking a very fine line now. "Third world counties" may need to use hormone to color up their fish to be able to compete with other fish farms. It's a pretty common practice to do that in order to sell your fish over someone else.
> 
> Saying all these fish are from third world countries is a little bit of a generalization and kind of crass. I guess, who are we to say they shouldn't do a legal activity to make money for themselves? You would be better off educating customers not to buy them than to call out wholesalers. If it was an illegal activity, like cirumventing a CITES regulation or something, then heck yeah, tell the world. But we're talking about people trying to make money from uneducated buyers. Can't blame them.
> 
> I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but think about the big picture here.


The main company I'm looking at is Africa Northwest based out of Seattle; take a wild guess where they import from. I'm doing work tracing farms to Malaysia and China as well. Bad ornamental fish come out of the US, but the US doesn't produce as much as these other nations combine. I despise some of the practices on this continent as well, but that's not where I'm seeing most of the evidence of bad ram breeding. If you're going to mass produce something of unethically low quality why pay American wages when you can force someone to live on less than a dollar per day?

Many of these countries are poor because of their politics, not their resources. These countries will provide labor for low wages at long hours under poor conditions while surrounded by all sorts of natural commodities. If you've donated to UN related efforts to help these countries, odds are your donations went to the soldiers on the other side or into kickbacks involving $60 UN approved toilet seats. Then there's us, the buyer of these products happen to enjoy the benefits of treating people poorly that we don't have to face, and consoling our selves with thoughts of things like the trickle down effect.

I'm not looking at shutting these companies down; I'm looking at creating reasonable business terms that create a stable product that benefits both sides. They're hurting themselves, the market and the consumer with their current practices. I have compassion for these people, and I'd like to see something that works for all of us.

Show me a company working out of a developed nation encouraging these working conditions, or using hormone treatments to improve their fish and I'll be the first to drag them through the mud. The concept of condoning hormone treatment in the name of competition seems along the same ethical flaw as selling monkey organs for human transplant. I can't blame the starving for doing what they need to survive, but my heart does not go out to those in a country where obesity is a leading cause of death that correlates heavily with those of a lower income.

-Philosophos


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

I admire your go getter attitude, but it's not the places distributing the fish that's the problem, it's the people buying them without any clue what they are paying for. Fish stores only sell fish that sell.
Plus, you can't just speculate that every ram who dies does so because of hormones. You're walking a very fine line between biology-based political activity and all out environmental activism. The latter is much less respectable.

You'll get much more of a response from a grass-roots movement than an all out attack. Hobbyists have stopped the importation of wild arowana juvies (they chop off the brooding father's head off to get the fry) and the collection of many marine fish species by simply not buying the fish when they are offered. That's all we have to do, educate people. Sure, it sucks to wait for that to occur and grow into a result, but attacking someone you aren't even sure is causing the problems isnt going to fix it.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Six said:


> I admire your go getter attitude, but it's not the places distributing the fish that's the problem, it's the people buying them without any clue what they are paying for. Fish stores only sell fish that sell.


Offering a product with serious known flaws is dishonest; the owners of these large chains know their mortality rates. You'll find their market research peppering the internet. For that matter, there are fish stores here that won't carry from the supplier I've mentioned. You can thank large chains with more of a responsibility to their shareholders than their customers for a good chunk of what's happening.



Six said:


> Plus, you can't just speculate that every ram who dies does so because of hormones. You're walking a very fine line between biology-based political activity and all out environmental activism. The latter is much less respectable.


I'm not saying every single one does, and it's not all hormones. The hormones make for some miserable behavior and shorter life spans, but it's the antibiotic baths that mostly cut life short based on what I've seen. I've taken the time to observe apisto survival rates along side rams, and I've found that the apistos do far better. This is something I want to make concrete with a good survey eventually.



> You'll get much more of a response from a grass-roots movement than an all out attack.


I don't really find them mutually exclusive, and I plan on using both. It wouldn't be fair for me to make some sort of report exposing all of this without at least talking to the involved companies first. I don't expect this to be over quickly, but I don't plan on backing down any time soon.



> Hobbyists have stopped the importation of wild arowana juvies (they chop off the brooding father's head off to get the fry) and the collection of many marine fish species by simply not buying the fish when they are offered. That's all we have to do, educate people. Sure, it sucks to wait for that to occur and grow into a result, but attacking someone you aren't even sure is causing the problems isnt going to fix it.


I know a distributer of the fish that knows better; calling them on it and pointing out the fact that it can have some bad backlash may result in them passing along the names of these farms in order to resolve the problem rather than catching the backlash. I'd rather just solve this problem through good communication than through destroying a market for a beautiful fish.

This is a concept in its infancy, but one that's been bothering me for a few years. All I've given so far is an overview of what I'd like to do; the details are in the works. As I said, the starting post isn't even ready to go; there's more planning to be done.

-Philosophos


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## DavidZ (Jan 22, 2009)

I agree, more and more is sold with hormones added, to colorize and sell faster.
Fish stores and sellers are in business to make money.
Customers should be aware of what they are buying.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

Dan,

I agree with your cause and principles, but be very careful with what you post. You don't want to get sued (it has happened). And I'm sure you don't want to spread misinformation. Get all the facts straight before you start posting anything. Also, I'm not sure this forum is the place to start. You may want to get others involved to help. Some ideas off the top of my head include the better business bureau and local news organizations.

The economic and political issues you raise are usually layered with complexity, so I think much research is definitely required. Even then coming up with a "right" answer can be very difficult, if not impossible.

Good luck and tread carefully,


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## jas1w124 (Dec 18, 2009)

Once you find a good supplier or German Blue Ram's, the fish can be pretty hardy, back when I was new to the hobby and STUPID AS ALL GET OUT, I actually cycled a 29 gallon aquarium with four rams and they were never had any disease for the 2 years they lived until I added a firemouth that killed them. Since then I have learned much and and am offended at how dumb I was. I guess the point is, make sure you get them from a high quality store where the fish are healthy and make sure it is not a new shipment of rams and they should do good.


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## crisis (Apr 9, 2007)

I've had a tank set up for quite a while waiting for a nice GBR pair to show up at the LFS. I finally found one, and after 3 days, the male died. I'm going to go back and check out any other possible pairs plus a male replacement. At least he gave me a good laugh when first introducing him into the tank lol.


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## Vadimshevchuk (Jul 5, 2009)

I love this fish. It it so unique and beautiful bit i agree on what others said. This fish isn't hardy and i'm scared to buy them. At our lfs they go for 7 dollars a pieace and only 1 day warranty. Not gonna try it =/


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## dunderman (Oct 2, 2009)

I had a pair years ago in my discus tank. I got them from our wholesaler when I worked at the LFS. I never had a single problem with them. I am looking to get a few more. Anyone have any experience with Arizona Aquatic Gardens (www.azgardens.com)? They have beautiful pictures of rams that they claim to breed in-house. They're only an hour away from me, so I've been thinking about giving them a shot.


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## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

I picked up 9 (1/4") fry at a auction, clearly locally bred. I feel I had great success with them since I had never delt with young rams before. They survived the 8 hour auction in their little bag like all they other fish did. 1 was a runt and 5 made it too adult hood just using frozen BBS. 2 of them eventually spawned though I was too busy to do anything about it. Then my tank crashed(some really bad wood) they were subjected to a very high 4ppm nitrite spike, that killed all my rummy tetras, a SAE, and some panda garras before I got home. The rams amazingly survived the spike the best they could. Within 3 months all of them had withered away.

I've had 2 store bought GBR. One lived for a while with no problems then died for no real reason. The other female didn't make it out of quarantine. I won't buy the ones from the stores anymore. They are too expensive, and the club ones are use to our hardwater. However I have to wait for someone to sell them....


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