# Co2 in Aquasoil



## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

Greetings everyone,

I’m close in setting up a low tech tank (D. Walstad) method. But I’m leaning towards using AS. But, my biggest concern, does it also release Carbon for plants to use like regular potting soil does? I know that Co2 is given by bacteria when they eat. But thinking about the very beginning (1-7 days) of set up. If AS doesn’t have those bacteria’s yet, will it be successful? 

I would like to hear from all of you who had tried substrates other than regular potting soils.

I’m new in the forum by the way. 
Cheers,


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## plazuk (Nov 24, 2017)

I have used aquarium soil in a tank I set up a month ago and it releases a lot of co2 bubbles. My plants are growing like crazy and my shrimp are doing fine =) I have used half an inch of the soil just because I did not have more and still it works. Good luck with Your tank!

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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Rodgie, welcome to the APC forums. I suspect you will get less CO2 from the substrate if you use only ADA Aquasoil as a substrate. That material is baked, which should reduce the amount of organic nutrients in it. But, if you use even a thin layer, like a half inch, of natural soil under the Aquasoil you will probably have enough to treat it like a soil substrate. I haven't tried this with Aquasoil so I'm not really sure.


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## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

Hi Hoppy and Plazuk,

Thank you for the kind responses. 
I thought about how it won’t work out because of AS not having the same amount of organic matter as potting soil. I should have followed my guts.

Anyways, this won’t stop me from setting up my first Low tech approach. Appearently my AS is already shipped and I can’t cancel it anymore. So, what I can do is just buy a miracle gro soil (recommended by Ms. walstad) use an Inch layer of it, then possibly top it off with an inch AS Amazonia? If I do that I want to double check something with your experiences guys. Is the texture of AS okay to be a cap? And, is it heavy enough to keep the soil in place and not leaking to the top too much? 
Lastly, will there be a disadvantage with these combinations considering both has ammonia spike tendency. If AS as a cap will not be a good combo I’ll just have to buy gravel (which I don’t want to spend extra money on again if possible).

By the way FYI guys, the tank will be the Fluval Spec V (got is as a gift) the stock light is 821 lumens. Which I’m still doing some research if this light will be okay to do siesta with or I should just do 5 hours photoperiod in the beginning. A guy in YouTube have a complete D. Walstad set up. And is using a CFL 900 lumens bulb with 10 hours lighting and its successful. I’m wondering if the LED I have can get away by doing the same since it’s lesser lumens? I’m not quite sure and would like to hear experience advices. 

Thanks all and have a beautiful day.

Cheers,


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I think you will have plenty of light for an El Natural tank, if not too much. As I understand that type of set-up the siesta is a big advantage, because it allows the CO2 from the substrate to build up between short light periods. And, I don't see any reason to worry about using the ADA Aquasoil over dirt. The only disadvantage I see is if you ever want to re-use the Aquasoil. It will be difficult to separate it from the dirt. But, for that size tank I wouldn't even try to re-use the substrate. There won't be enough to make it worthwhile.


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## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

Thank you hoppy,

I'll research more about the light combination that I should do. Anybody who has other opinions about the light and my AS cap approach feel free to comment. I'd like to be successful in this set up. So the more ideas the better.

I will not be re using the AS that I'll put on this for sure. Perhaps no rearranging of the scape as well (I hope). If there'll be no disadvantage in terms of ammonia leaking, too much nutrients or if the size and weight of AS is fine. I think I'll use it as a cap.

Question about the miracle gro soil that everybody used for their el natural set up. I can't find the same specific one anymore aside from this:

https://www.amazon.com/Miracle-7297...b0-20&linkId=fe727fcd9f47ea1cc0339dc7e66bef4b

Is 8qt enough for my 5 gallon 17 lenght x 10 height x 6 width inches?

I appreciate your help guys

Cheers,
Rodgie


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

If my calculation is right, you will have enough Miracle Gro for 4 1/2 inches of substrate. You need about 1/4 of that.


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## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

Hi hoppy, 
After reading more, I figured I’ll just perhaps return the Aquasoil. I bought some miracle gro soil and gravel yesterday and I’m just waiting for them to arrive. 

Question, how come I can’t make a new thread or post in the forum? I would like to start a journal of my tank.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

I have seen some relatively good looking Low Tech tanks with Amazonia. I don't know if it contains anything that can release CO2. To me it looks like it does not, but who knows...

The owners of those tanks did relatively frequent and large water changes (say 40% weekly) and added a carbo product daily. Can it be that tap water contains that much CO2 (and O2) that it helps the plants? 

If I do a water change, I can see oxygen bubbles for 1-2-3 days on the glass... Why is there that much O2 in the tap? Is it because its under pressure? Does CO2 gas out faster than O2 in the tank? Can CO2 from the tap be significant, or is it marginal amount?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

zolteeC said:


> I have seen some relatively good looking Low Tech tanks with Amazonia. I don't know if it contains anything that can release CO2. To me it looks like it does not, but who knows...
> 
> The owners of those tanks did relatively frequent and large water changes (say 40% weekly) and added a carbo product daily. Can it be that tap water contains that much CO2 (and O2) that it helps the plants?
> 
> If I do a water change, I can see oxygen bubbles for 1-2-3 days on the glass... Why is there that much O2 in the tap? Is it because its under pressure? Does CO2 gas out faster than O2 in the tank? Can CO2 from the tap be significant, or is it marginal amount?


If your tap water comes from wells it very likely does have a lot of CO2 dissolved in it. But, if it is from water reservoirs or rivers, it most likely contains only the CO2 that dissolves from the air, about 3 ppm. Water in the water mains is under pressure, usually around 40 psi, so it can keep more gas in solution than water not under pressure can. When that water fills the tank the pressure has dropped back to atmospheric pressure, and the dissolved gases come out of solution as small bubbles. Those bubbles are what you see stuck to everything in the tank after a big water change. They are the gasses air is made up of - nitrogen, oxygen and some CO2. CO2 is the most soluble in water, which means it also comes out of solution faster too. Oxygen doesn't dissolve in water very easily, but it also stays in solution better once dissolved. Nitrogen? Who cares? Nitrogen is like background noise.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> If your tap water comes from wells it very likely does have a lot of CO2 dissolved in it. But, if it is from water reservoirs or rivers, it most likely contains only the CO2 that dissolves from the air, about 3 ppm. Water in the water mains is under pressure, usually around 40 psi, so it can keep more gas in solution than water not under pressure can. When that water fills the tank the pressure has dropped back to atmospheric pressure, and the dissolved gases come out of solution as small bubbles. Those bubbles are what you see stuck to everything in the tank after a big water change. They are the gasses air is made up of - nitrogen, oxygen and some CO2. CO2 is the most soluble in water, which means it also comes out of solution faster too. Oxygen doesn't dissolve in water very easily, but it also stays in solution better once dissolved. Nitrogen? Who cares? Nitrogen is like background noise.


Thanks for the answers. In my country the tap water comes from wells and not from water reservoirs, so this may be the reason why I see so much O2 bubbles and probably high CO2 content. I checked in the book, the equilibrium is not 3 ppm but only 0.5 mg/l on typical aquarium temperature (page 94). This is really low for plants. So if Aqua soil does not release CO2, then where do those tanks get the CO2 from? Can it be that the fish food / waste in the filter where water with high O2 content flows through generates enough CO2? CO2 must enter somehow to the tank, otherwise relying only on the air equilibrium would result in very little growth I guess.

From NPT perspective:

_My challenge with some of my NPTs is that grows slows after 12 months or so_. The book is very clear on this, that the sediment CO2 supply can be depleted over time. After I set up the tank, I get luxurious growth in the first 8-12 months, I am really happy with it. However, then I usually see a slow down where some plants die off, etc. Situation is not terrible, but definitely notable. I use top soil from the garden, and I assume its lower on organic content. These are just my assumptions, I don't know if its caused by lower CO2 levels. I don't over filter the tank and water movement is low. However I do remove some mulm due to aesthetic reasons.
Do you guys have any tips to avoid this? Should I try dosing CO2 a little bit? (then the tank is not NPT any more...  )


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

At the typical low light levels used in that type of tank set-up, plants don't need a lot of CO2. Here is some data:









Note that, for this species of aquatic plant, you get almost as much growth rate with about 6-7 ppm of CO2 as you do with much higher levels of CO2. That makes it easy to get plenty of CO2 from the substrate.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> At the typical low light levels used in that type of tank set-up, plants don't need a lot of CO2. Here is some data:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure those numbers are right? Maybe I misinterpret it.
If that's true then plants would go crazy fast even with very low CO2 levels. Also I find the difference between the 35.2 ppm and 0.7 ppm case too little for 251 PAR. I'd guess that in a high light-high tech tank plants easily grow much more than 2.5x faster than in a tank with such low co2 levels. Something does not add up for me.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

zolteeC said:


> _My challenge with some of my NPTs is that grows slows after 12 months or so_.
> Do you guys have any tips to avoid this? Should I try dosing CO2 a little bit?


Feed your fish well to help out with plant growth after first year. Don't over-clean your tank.

I would try adding a dose of freshly submerged soil in one way or the other. For example, you could add a plant potted in soil to the tank. If you bury the pot in the substrate at the back of the tank, it can blend in.

The freshly submerged soil adds both iron and CO2 to the water in my tanks. Otherwise, my floating plants will die after first year. I think iron deficiency is the problem, made worse by the high zinc content of my tapwater. (The zinc competes with water iron uptake and floating plants become iron deficient. One chemical analysis of my plants showed a high zinc content and a low iron content)

Someone on this forum inserted clay balls of soil mixed with potting soil into the substrate and got good results.

In my opinion, a little "soil dosing" is easier than setting up a CO2 injection system.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

zolteeC said:


> Are you sure those numbers are right? Maybe I misinterpret it.
> If that's true then plants would go crazy fast even with very low CO2 levels. Also I find the difference between the 35.2 ppm and 0.7 ppm case too little for 251 PAR. I'd guess that in a high light-high tech tank plants easily grow much more than 2.5x faster than in a tank with such low co2 levels. Something does not add up for me.


Here is the source of the data: http://www.bio-web.dk/ole_pedersen/pdf/Hydrobiologia_2202_477_163.pdf All of the playing around I have done, at low light, convinced me that this is correct. Remember, riccia is an unusual plant, so other plants could be expected to react differently in detail.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Feed your fish well to help out with plant growth after first year. Don't over-clean your tank.
> 
> I would try adding a dose of freshly submerged soil in one way or the other. For example, you could add a plant potted in soil to the tank. If you bury the pot in the substrate at the back of the tank, it can blend in.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestions. I like the pot idea, because that adds quite an amount of soil. Unfortunately I have lots of larger stones and there is a slope in the tank, so there is no way to fit in pots smoothly. I'd probably do this if the surface were flat without stones.

Somewhere I read that freezing soil cubes can work. My idea is to put soil into a small paper planters, freeze them, and insert them as deep as I can into the substrate.

I'd guess that paper planters decompose easily, or do they contain any dangerous chemicals?

Unfortunately my tank is around 500 liter, so I will need to add quite a bit of soil. If I target approx 10% of the original soil amount (which was 1 inch deep), would that work?

I know how nicely the plants grow with my fresh soil, but I don't think just a few cubes here and there are enough... If I do this, I'd like to forget this problem for another year or so.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Pretty much I find that plants that need added co2 won’t grow if it is not added. So I think most of this discussion is really about something else. We don’t rotate crops and repot house plants because of co2. We do it because plants use up the nutrients in the soil. So where do the added nutrients come from? Some of us use water changes to aid in this, some of us use fish food , some of us change out the substrates or supplement them and some of us just add fertilizers. Most of the time I don’t think it is a co2 problem we are trying to fix it is a problem of the basic NPK or mircos.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

BruceF said:


> Pretty much I find that plants that need added co2 won't grow if it is not added. So I think most of this discussion is really about something else. We don't rotate crops and repot house plants because of co2. We do it because plants use up the nutrients in the soil. So where do the added nutrients come from? Some of us use water changes to aid in this, some of us use fish food , some of us change out the substrates or supplement them and some of us just add fertilizers. Most of the time I don't think it is a co2 problem we are trying to fix it is a problem of the basic NPK or mircos.


I agree, when we are talking about low light. The riccia data I posted shows that. You don't gain much by using 30 ppm of CO2, which most people try for, unless you have high light or at least high medium light. The useful range of CO2 concentration is probably around 1 to 5 ppm, which the substrate can provide. Of course more CO2 doesn't harm the plants.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Feed your fish well to help out with plant growth after first year. Don't over-clean your tank.
> 
> I would try adding a dose of freshly submerged soil in one way or the other. For example, you could add a plant potted in soil to the tank. If you bury the pot in the substrate at the back of the tank, it can blend in.
> 
> ...


This is clearly helping. I added the fresh & hot soil in small paper planters, then a bit of gravel on top of it. Aprox 12 pcs for the 500 liter tank. Then I watered the thing slightly and put them in the freezer. Once frozen, I put them as deep into the substrate as I could. This way I could add the soil without creating a mess;

Plants are pearling a little bit now! Growth is definitely noticeable, new leaves look good.

Thanks for convincing me to try this. I have a pressurized CO2 system ready, but I am very happy that I don't need to set it up. To be fair, I don't know if it was a CO2 issue or other nutrients depleted in the NPT. One thing is sure, even plants that are far away from the fresh soil are growing now.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

If I had a pressurized CO2 system on hand, I would use it instead of DIY CO2, but I would keep the CO2 down to around 15-20 ppm or even less, depending on how much light I have. It is so much easier to keep a consistent level of CO2 with pressurized CO2.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> If I had a pressurized CO2 system on hand, I would use it instead of DIY CO2, but I would keep the CO2 down to around 15-20 ppm or even less, depending on how much light I have. It is so much easier to keep a consistent level of CO2 with pressurized CO2.


Hoppy, I am not using CO2 fertilization at all. This is an NPT. aprox 14 months old, and plant growth slowed recently and I guess some deficiencies appeared. I was unsure if the soil depleted from organic matter and therefore not releasing that much CO2 any longer or some other issues. Adding fresh soil under the gravel layer solved the problem for now, plants showing good growth. I do not know if CO2 was the issue for sure, or some other nutrients became depleted.

Unless I was not able to solve this issue "the NPT way", I was hesitating to convert this NPT to a high tech tank because I have a pressurized CO2 system available (but not in use). But since I added the soil, the plants show very good growth. Again, maybe it was not a co2 issue though. Who knows. Soil helped anyways.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

ZolteeC,

Hey, I'm really glad to hear that adding a little soil worked out in your tank. And thanks for giving us details on how you did it. Ingenious...


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## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

Zooltec,

Sorry I have to ask this, how did you insert the frozen soil to the substrate again? I’ve been reading your post over and over and I’m just not getting the correct process of how did you insert it. It was an existing tank right? I’ll be happy to hear your more detailed answer. I’m really interested


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

Rodgie said:


> Zooltec,
> 
> Sorry I have to ask this, how did you insert the frozen soil to the substrate again? I've been reading your post over and over and I'm just not getting the correct process of how did you insert it. It was an existing tank right? I'll be happy to hear your more detailed answer. I'm really interested


Yes, it was an existing NPT tank. I bought some small paper planters (small biodegradable plant pots), I put some soil in the planters and then gravel on top. I moisturized it and then put it in the freezer. Once frozen, I inserted it as deep into the aquarium substrate as I could. My thinking was, that this way I can avoid making a mess in the tank.

The planters will decompose over time in the tank, I hope it is not causing issues.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

I can confirm, that the soil addition has really helped to get rid of the nutrient deficiency and slowed growth which I saw when the tank became aprox one year old.










Plants show good growth even weeks after I added fresh soil in my NPT. I will use this method if I see deficiencies again. Simple and cheap. And no algae.

Sorry for being off-topic.


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## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

Actually it’s perfect timing. I want to learn more about this procedure. Do you have a picture of the exact inert product you use to put and freeze the freshly moist soil? Maybe a link will be perfect. 

Your tank is a dream tank for me! I like that style of rocks and ascending to the right!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

zolteeC that is a really beautiful aquascape! I could hardly take my eyes off of it. I will keep this in mind for when I decide to re-aquascape my tank.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

Rodgie said:


> Actually it's perfect timing. I want to learn more about this procedure. Do you have a picture of the exact inert product you use to put and freeze the freshly moist soil? Maybe a link will be perfect.
> 
> Your tank is a dream tank for me! I like that style of rocks and ascending to the right!


We are really going off topic here from Aquasoil....

This is how I added fresh soil to the 1 year old NPT that was showing signs of nutrient deficiencies.










Those are small biodegradable planter pots. I kind of imitated the substrate layers that I used when started the tank (3 cm soil, 3 cm gravel on top). Then I put it into the freezer. Once frozen, I could put it deep into the substrate without a mess. Now all plants are growing. Even the ones that are not even near where I added the soil (i.e stems).

Keep in mind, that your tank may be different than mine, so doing this may or may not cause serious problems for you.

Do you guys think that the biodegradable planter pot is OK? I guess slowly it will break down in the tank. I did not see any issues with it (yet  ).


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## Rodgie (Dec 28, 2017)

ZolteeC,

So when you put it in your substrate do you kind of dig out some of he cap first and squeeze it in and eventually make it blend? Doesn’t the soil layer in the tank gets messy?


Don’t worry about the spam, I believe in fact it still count as part of the topic when I open this thread. “Co2 in Aquasoil” this is still Co2 related.


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## asad_200113 (Aug 24, 2017)

zolteeC said:


> I can confirm, that the soil addition has really helped to get rid of the nutrient deficiency and slowed growth which I saw when the tank became aprox one year old.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those Bosemani I are beautiful and the plants look great.

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