# Dry ferts questions



## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/micro-macro-fertilizers.html

this is the package im looking to buy.

how many gallons will each pound or half pound treat? (ex: 250ml of seachem prime will treat 2500 gallons of water no matter how you cut it.)

Thanks
Elliot


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## THE_MOTHER_JEWELS (Feb 10, 2011)

Is entirely determined by the desired target concentration. For example 1 pound of KN03 into 10'000 Gallons yields 7.36 ppm.
As such if you treated 5000 Gallons it would double, up to 14.72 ppm

Using different math, if you add 6 grams a day; 2.5 months later - your out.

With prime there is a minimum you need to produce the desired effect. With fertz , as you know, the user finds the magic number. 

Heck of a price BTW I would buy it.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

i understand the ratio but.... one pound will only treat so many gallons of water. It is a fix amount. 

if i have one gallon of iron it will treat the same amount as 10 gallons cause it came from one pound of dry fert. 

so what is that number it can treat. 

i understand you can make it lean or heavy but in the end based on the recommended ratio it will treat a fixed amount. 

i hope that makes sense.

Thanks 
Elliot


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

You really dont need to dose potassium sulfate. there's enough in KNO3 and KH2PO4.
It may look like a good deal until you see the shipping costs.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

shipping is $10 thats pretty good imo... but back to the main question...

Thanks
Elliot


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

It does depend on what level of each you want in your tank. 

For me, the fish food keeps the NO3 up high enough that I dose very little KNO3 to maintain the level I want. For me, a pound of KNO3 lasts a LONG time, even treating about 700 gallons worth of planted tanks. 

On the other hand, I add so little KNO3 and KH2PO4 that there is not enough potassium for the plants. I have only ever seen K and Fe deficiencies in my tanks. I dose more K2SO4 than anything else.


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## jkan0228 (Dec 29, 2010)

It all depends on the levels you want in your tank. 
I'm dosing with PPS-Pro right now as I calculated my ferts into lastin for about 2 years which is a heck f a deal for 30$ plus shipping. 
It also depends on the concentration you want to add it in.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

is there directions with the dry ferts package for a recommended ratio?


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## freshyleif (Jan 9, 2008)

No but if you need to make a liquid solution just ask and there are many people who make there own concentrations. In general most of us that use dry fertz are following E.I. method and you can look up the guide to how much per tank size (x amount of fertz per x gallon tank). I like many others have tweaked it a little to fit my needs better but it is a great pace to start. I have seen it here before someone had there own guide to making liquid solutions that you dosed at 6ml per 10g. I think they were using the PPS pro but I am not sure. I know I was a little unsure before getting my fertz but it is really pretty simple and easy. Oh the only thing I would pass on is that it is a good idea to get non clear containers to store it in as the CSM+B is light sensitive and will degrade.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

ok. i see this might be tougher than i thought. 

i was using the entire pferts line. im not very good with the scientific nomenclature. (pso4 or whatever.) i have done some research but i cannot wrap my brain around it.

i was using N,P,K, and macro Pferts and Seachem comprehensive.

what would that be the equivalent to in dry ferts?

Thanks
Elliot


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

potassium nitrate KNO3 - nitrogen (N)
mono potassium phosphate KH2PO4 - phosphate (P)
Potassium Sulfate K2SO4- Potassium (K)

Is this correct?
and can i mix NPK all into one container without it starting to chunk up and seperate?

and as a reference to myself what would the ratio to of water to powder do i mix to get the same dosing application as Seachems directions. 5ml to 50 gallons?


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

doubleott05 said:


> potassium nitrate KNO3 - nitrogen (N)
> mono potassium phosphate KH2PO4 - phosphate (P)
> Potassium Sulfate K2SO4- Potassium (K)
> 
> Is this correct?


Correct


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

well i think i have fried my brain for the day. i have been doing research on this all day. i think the PPS pro is for me. im getting an auto dosing pump and i will be dosing iron, NPK mix ( can you mix the powders it all in one bottle?) and either csm+b or seachem comprehensive haven't decided on that one yet.

Can i mix NPK all into one container without it starting to chunk up and seperate?

Thanks
Elliot


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

If you mix phosphate with iron you run the risk of creating iron phosphate which is almost impossible to disolve in water.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

no no i never mix iron with anything, but can i mix the NPK?


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

your macro nutrients (KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4) can all be mixed together in the same bottle, yes.

FWIW a pound of dry ferts will last you a LONG time unless you're dosing hundreds and hundreds (thousands?) of gallons.

I mean you're looking at dosing around 1.3g KNO3 in a 40gal tank 3 times a week if you follow EI.

Do the math and you'll realize that a pound will last you an incredibly long time.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

ya thats why im making the move to dry ferts. they are cheaper. i will be using the PPS pro dosing system i think i will like that. i may eventually tweak it but i like th way they created it. 

thanks for everybodys help 


.... now its time to shell out some cash for auto dosing pump and dry ferts buahahaaa!!!!

Thanks
Elliot


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

doubleott05 said:


> ya thats why im making the move to dry ferts. they are cheaper. i will be using the PPS pro dosing system i think i will like that. i may eventually tweak it but i like th way they created it.
> 
> thanks for everybodys help
> 
> ...


Hey brother, EI is not complicated at all. I think it will suit your needs better than PPS pro. Read this article http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211 This will give you a great overall understanding of how EI works and will teach you how to dose as well.

Cheers,
Jeremy


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

THanks Jeremy!! i already started reading this over.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

jeremy1 said:


> Hey brother, EI is not complicated at all. I think it will suit your needs better than PPS pro. Read this article http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211 This will give you a great overall understanding of how EI works and will teach you how to dose as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jeremy


ok so this is all based on a 20 gallon tank? so i just take the statistics from that tank and multiply it up to a 50gal tank? is all that info solid material. what if my tank absorbs more than that. i wont know cause i dont have a test kit.

*he original EI experiments followed this line of reasoning and light was continually added to drive higher and higher uptake rates. At some point, the physical limitations of uptake were reached such that adding more light no longer produced higher uptake rates or higher growth rates. This limit was on the order of 5-6 watts per gallon (wpg) so that for a 20 Gallon tank, adding more than about 100-120 watts T5 failed to produce increased growth rates. The value 5-6 wpg can be considered Unlimited lighting because the plant can no longer make use of lighting intensity higher than this value. At this unlimited lighting we can then measure the uptake rates of the various nutrients. Since adding more light did not result in any higher uptake of these nutrients, the uptake rates measured under the unlimited lighting can also be considered to be unlimited nutrient uptake. On a weekly basis, these measurements were recorded to be the approximate values:
Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week.
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week.
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week *

this is what im talking about. is this uptake information standard for ALL tanks or just an example for that 20gal tank.

if this is true then for a 50 gallon tank the numbers would be as follows for the week correct?
Nitrate (NO3) 50ppm per week.
Potassium (K) 75ppm per week.
Phosphate (PO4) 7.5ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 1.25ppm per week

if this is the case then how do i mix my ferts is the biggest question?

with pps pro its all standard but with EI i dont know how to mix my ferts for this statistic.

Thanks
Elliot


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

If you were using the pfertz line, why not just make up pfertz equivalent solutions? What is the concentration of the nutrients in the pfertz line? How much of each solution were you adding each day? I had to give a presentation on fertilizing for PAPAS (Pittsburgh area Planted Aquarium Society) and did calculations for equivalent Seachem macro fertilizers. If i have time when i get home, i can hash out the calculations from the info on the pfertz website. (Nitrogen in the pfertz line is based off of KNO3 and Urea so an equivalent solution will probably have more K in it than the corresponding pfertz line (since Urea doesn't have K in it). Seachem's N, fyi, is not based on KNO3 as well). Also, do you know how much volume of solution is in "one squirt"? I'm guessing 1 mL (Like Amano's fertilizer line), but I'm not sure...


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

it is 1ml per squirt.


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

Elliot,

That uptake information was based only on the 20gallon tank in the article. They recoreded the uptake while having maxium lighing and unlimited supply of nutrients in the water column. They found that adding more light greater than 6watts per gallon did not yeild higer uptake rates. The physical limitation/threshold of uptake was reached at 6 watts per gallon.

Based on that infromation if you are running >6watt per gallon and dosing the recommended EI for a 50gallon tank, your uptake rates will not be greater than these rates in this experiement. Having said that, most people don't run 5-6watts of lighting so there nutrient uptake will always be less than what is recorded in this experiement. The amount of light(energy sorce) you use will determine the amount of nutrients you use. This is the estimative part of the EI dosing method. More light=more nutrients required.

To mix your ferts for your 50 gallon tank you just devided 50gallon/20gallon * tsp of nutrient(for 20gal) * 12. Ex for KNO3 you would do 2.5 x 3/16tsp x 12 doses = 5.6 or 5 1/2 tsp of KNO3 mixed in 600ml of distilled water. Do the same for KH2PO4. I would not worry about the mag. Just use GH booster or seachem equillibrium.



doubleott05 said:


> ok so this is all based on a 20 gallon tank? so i just take the statistics from that tank and multiply it up to a 50gal tank? is all that info solid material. what if my tank absorbs more than that. i wont know cause i dont have a test kit.
> 
> *he original EI experiments followed this line of reasoning and light was continually added to drive higher and higher uptake rates. At some point, the physical limitations of uptake were reached such that adding more light no longer produced higher uptake rates or higher growth rates. This limit was on the order of 5-6 watts per gallon (wpg) so that for a 20 Gallon tank, adding more than about 100-120 watts T5 failed to produce increased growth rates. The value 5-6 wpg can be considered Unlimited lighting because the plant can no longer make use of lighting intensity higher than this value. At this unlimited lighting we can then measure the uptake rates of the various nutrients. Since adding more light did not result in any higher uptake of these nutrients, the uptake rates measured under the unlimited lighting can also be considered to be unlimited nutrient uptake. On a weekly basis, these measurements were recorded to be the approximate values:
> Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week.
> ...


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

i have 300w of MH over a 50 gal...


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

Dose the full EI and you will be fine. It will still be unlimiting. With that light I would add additional K with K2SO4, dose the same as you would KH2PO4.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

im having trouble understanding the term "unlimiting"

and i have to base this off of an estimated gram amout of how much a tablespoon can hold?

do i need a gram scale?

what is the GH booster for? and i bought MG so i guess i might as well use it.

Thanks agian for all your help jeremy.


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

Okay, i had some time to do some quick napkin math and this is what i came up with based off of the information from pfertz analysis ( http://www.pfertz.com/analysis.html#nitrogen ). Using the % that pfertz guarantees, i calculated...

P = ~5,000 ppm (~7.0 g KH2PO4 / L)
K = ~42,000 ppm (~94.4 g K2SO4 / L)

N was tricky, however, since they use both Urea and KNO3. By using the K concentration, I could determine N from KNO3 and then the rest of the total N must be from Urea.

K = ~41,500 ppm (~107 g KNO3 / L)
Total N = 77,500 ppm

Therefor the N solution look like it's ~41,000 ppm KNO3 and ~36,000 ppm Urea.

Micros are not able to be calculated (by napkin math at least) since every company has their own micro formula's and making one up is really not practical. I'd just make up a micro solution from the PPS-PRO system and dose that according to that fertilization system. If that seems too lean for your likings, then add more Fe.

If you are really concerned about solution accuracy, then yes, you need a balance (with a sensitivity to 0.1 g). If you want to make calibration and verification solutions using analytical grade chemicals to verify test kits and stuff, then i'd go with a more sensitive balance; Otherwise, it's a waste of money.

If you don't have a balance, then you can plug the values into the fertilator to find the appropriate quantities in tsp, etc.


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

Unlimited nutrients means having more than enough NPK in the water column than the plants can consume. This ensures that you will never be lacking any of the nutrients. This also means that you need to do weekly water changes to prevent nutrient build up.

No need for a gram scale here. Just use teaspoons for your measurements. EI is not meant to be exact, nor do you need to test.

GH booster helps add minerals for plants, mainly calcium and mag. Alot of people's tap water is soft or they use RO water so GH booster is necessary. Tom Barr recommneds adding it once weekly with water change.

Cheers,
Jeremy



doubleott05 said:


> im having trouble understanding the term "unlimiting"
> 
> and i have to base this off of an estimated gram amout of how much a tablespoon can hold?
> 
> ...


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

thanks jeremy i think im all set to dose try ferts ei style
thanks for the input funk

Thanks
Elliot


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

Sure man anytime.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

need help again. 

i need help with the EI formula for a 50gal tank. 

i am wanting to mix NPK into a one gallon of water. 

and CSM-B into one gallon of water. to get the proper dose for 5-6wpg

for a 50 gallon tank the numbers would be as follows for the week correct?
Nitrate (NO3) 50ppm per week.
Potassium (K) 75ppm per week.
Phosphate (PO4) 7.5ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 1.25ppm per week

but i dont know how to make that mixture into a one gallon jug. 

THanks
Elliot


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

....and i tried using the fertilator but that didnt help. and i keep confusing myself. ill try to google a one gallon mixture.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

i need a calculator that does reverse math. my goal is one gallon and my target PPM is X. and then it tells me how many TSP or grams to add to the water.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

the reason i ask is because these mixtures will be hooked up to an auto dosing pump


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

See if this calculator helps.

http://calc.petalphile.com/


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

i found that one but im not quite sure how to use it

Yet Another Nutrient Calculator

My aquarium is * 50** gal *

I'm dosing with 
using * a solution* dry dosing 
while using a *3785* mL container 
with doses of * ??? * mL 
if you are calculating for dose below, 
add that amount to this container
and I'm calculating for 
what dose to reach a target 
the result of my dose

what should my dose be?? if i am gonna do this every day

i think i def did this wrong it says i need to add 11680.89607 grams of KN03 to one gallon. thats more than a pound


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

ok i have been looking at this and i think my brain is gonna implode

i must say pps pro is looking like the easy way out right now.

i understand how to dry dose three times a week. however...comma..... i am lazy, very very lazy and i plan to auto dose every day with a timer and the whole shabang.
not to mention dry dosing in my busy life is a pain. i go on military exercises every other month for three weeks at a time and then when im here im very busy. so an autodoser for me would help me out infinitely. i cannot however seem to get this mix right. i got the csm-b figured out. it was simple. it seems that the mixture no matter what size tank is a constant. (1 tablespoon for every 250ml) thats approx 5 squirts a day for EI dosing my 50 gal (or 10ml or squirts 3x a week) the reason im using gallons is because i have one gallon jugs that are goning to be hooked up to the autodoser. a set it and forget it type of set up. 

i just need some help with the math.

i will be using NPK mix 

target ppm is 

50 N
75 K
7.5P
10 MAGNESIUM

i have tried every calculator i can find but for some reason the numbers just seem way off. 

Thanks


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

I think you're overcomplicating this a little bit...

Let's go back from the beginning.

You are following EI for a 50gal tank... So...


> 40-60 Gallon Aquariums
> +/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change


If you are measuring your ferts using a scale this link http://www.rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm contains all the information you need to convert teaspoons to grams.

Now you want 3 doses in a gallon of water, correct?

So...
1/2tsp x 3 = 1.5tsp KNO3
1/8 x 3 = 19/50tsp KH2PO4
1/8 x 3 = 19/50tsp Trace

So for your macros... mix 1.5tsp of KNO3 and 19/50tsp of KH2PO4 in 1 gallon of water, and that's your solution. Since there are 3 doses in your gallon of water...

1gal/3 = 1.26L/dose

So adding 1.26L of this solution will dose your tank according to the EI guidelines.

Now I will note that 19/50tsp is sort of impossible to measure...

Since 2 x 1/8 = 1/4, and since 1/4tsp measuring spoons are easy to find, it would probably be easier to mix your doses for even numbers of days instead of mixing your ferts for 3 days...

so... 
6 x 1/2tsp = 3tsp KNO3
6 x 1/8tsp = 3/4tsp KH2PO4
6 x 1/8tsp = 3/4tsp Trace

1gal / 6 = 0.63L/dose

Now you have a 2 week's supply, and the measurements work out nicely for a standard measuring spoon set.

FWIW using the nutrient calculator... Let's say you want to add 20ppm of NO3 using KNO3.

Set your aquarium to the proper size (50gal), select KNO3 using *dry dosing*, dose to reach a certain target: 20ppm...



> To reach your target of 20.0 ppm NO3,
> you'll need to add 6.1722 grams of KNO3


Now to make your solution for 3 doses in 1gal of water...

6.1722g x 3 = ~18.52g added to 1gal of water / 3 doses = 1.26L/dose

Make sense?

I would really recommend buying a digital scale if you wish to aim for target ppm's... Or if you REALLY insist on mixing batches to last a specific number of doses... You can get a good one that measures to 2 decimal places for around $20.

Also note that you can dissolve a lot of dry ferts into a gallon of water...

For my 29gal I make a 60mL solution which contains 3 doses at 20mL/dose. For my trace mix I make a 24mL solution with water, add 6mL of seachem iron to make 30mL, and dose 10mL/dose. The reason my trace mix is smaller is because there's less to dissolve so I didn't need quite as much water. Also if I was adding litres of water to my tank daily, I would have to account for that increase when filling my tank up after water changes.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

well yes and no. i am still a bit confused. i want to mix like 2 months of solution into a one gallon jug. that would be 24 doses

that would be approx 158mils per dose

thats what im aiming for. i realize last night after some sleep i forgot to give the paramaters for what i was looking for. 

Thanks
Elliot

ha ha holy crap i just figured it out. i just need to multiply one dose times 24. then add all that to the one gallon and bada bing im in buisness. is this correct?


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

You've got it.


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## doubleott05 (Jul 20, 2005)

ok i def got it now. 

i made one gallon for 4 months. i will have to dose 31ml every day. whooo hooo. 

Thanks Everybody!!!!


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Eureka! 

Glad you got it sorted out!


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