# How To Keep Ferns?



## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

This is not a NPT specific topic but since I keep ferns in NPT as well, so I decide to post it here. Regardless I use NPT or non-NPT method, the problem is the same. Below is one example from my list of tanks.

I have been keeping plants over the years. Somehow ferns which are claimed to be the easiest aquatic plants always give me headache. I have been trying all kinds of method to overcome it but I have failed so far. Sometimes I even get contradicting advice. Example: some people told me to increase the light exposure but some ask me to decrease. Some claim that my temperature is too high but I have seen a friend who dumps her narrow leaf fern in a pot at the balcony without any fan or chiller...and she had no problem at all. Please help to identify the problem. Recently, due to the following tank broke, I decided to use ADA Amazonian soil but I doubt it will make any difference for ferns.

Problem: 
Java/Phillipines/Narrow leaf ferns turn bald after several months or 1-2 years plus OR taken over by green spot algae.

Tank Size: 3 feet or 50 US gallon

Lighting: 144 watt of PL totally. Turned on for 8 hours a day. To be exact I turn it on for 4 hours, turn off for 1 hour, turn it on again for 4 hours

Filtration: Eheim 2215

Water temp: 28-29 degree Celsius even with a fan (82.4 - 84.2 degree Fahrenheit)

Fertilisation: Seachem products - Excel (whenever I see BBA only), Flourish (slightly less than a capful per week), Potassium (1 capful per week), Nitrogen (half a cap), Phosphorus (1 capful per week, started only last week), root tabs and ADA's iron are added once every 6 months (this is an estimation).

CO2: 3 bubbles per second

Substrate: Holland sand (added a packet of ADA Amazonian soil only yesterday)

Fauna. species & number: SAE (1), Ottos (6), Yellow Phantom Tetras (6), Cherry Barbs(maybe around 10), Kuhli Loach (6), Ember Tetras (about a dozen). I think it's overloaded 

Flora: Anubias Nana, Subwassertang, Marsilea, various Crypts (i.e. Wendtii, Retrospiralis), Cyperus Helferi, Narrow Leaf Fern, Philippines Fern, Java Fern and Eleocharis Vivipara.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

To be honest, I'm not sure why you'd list this system as a NPT. You're ferting, you've got 1.5wpg (upper end of NPT), you've got timers controlling for synth breaks and man-made substrate. I think you're coming to the dark side with this tank; it's okay, we've got cookies.

I'd suggest learning about your nutrients if you're going to fert. Figure out the ratios/ppm and why plants need them. DIY ferts will save you a pile of money, and the research will give you a nice chunk of knowledge about the hobby.

From there, slap on maybe .5wpg worth of lighting and tinker with the CO2 to compensate. Once you've got the basics of this, you'll have your choice of plants to master.

You wanted help with your java ferns? Unless they're getting torn apart by their own plantlets, or poisoned by some unknown variable, java fern will do just fine. Your problem with plants is hard to nail down because of the number of uncontrolled variables in your ferts; stabilizing this will fix your problem or give some meaningful indicators for everyone else.

And just for emphasis, I'm not posting on this thread as an effort to turn anyone away or towards any ideas arbitrarily. I'm just replying to what I see going on in this specific aquarium; it seems very close to being a mid-high tech system.

Best of luck with your tank. If you want help, I'd be glad to answer any questions that you've got.

-Philosophos


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## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Hi,
Seems that one thing affecting this tank is the lighting schedule. You are inturrupting mother nature 
You need to let photosynthis do a complete cycle. Your plants are confused


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

A mid-day break is used to reduce algae, but it doesn't mess up the plants. Tons of people use this method; some have award winning tanks, others have cesspools. In and of its self, this method does not seem to determine the health of a tank. Whether it helps is something I've not closely studied.

If you want to copy nature purely because you think anything natural is beneficial, I would start with introducing ammonia loaded fecal matter in small parts, along with all the diseases it incurs. With natural as much as high tech, I think there needs to be sound reasons for actions rather than blind appeals to nature or xenophilia.

-Philosophos


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## Tanan (Mar 11, 2009)

Samo problem with me tot,
my ferns either completely die or they got attacked by BGa so bad that I eventually ve to throw them out.I too ve a very high temp 32-35 C.But other plants seems to do well,even anachris in one of my tank did well with this high temp(died when I put it in NPT,with 3C low temp).


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

totziens said:


> Java/Phillipines/Narrow leaf ferns turn bald after several months or 1-2 years plus OR taken over by green spot algae.


Since there was only 1 line of description of the problem in the post I'm impressed by everyone's instant recognition of the problem, but I'm still a little unsure of what the plant is doing that is wrong? 

Can you post a picture (or several) and a better description of the fern that isn't doing well? I don't really know what you mean by bald.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

totziens said:


> Lighting: 144 watt of PL totally. Turned on for 8 hours a day. To be exact I turn it on for 4 hours, turn off for 1 hour, turn it on again for 4 hours
> .


So your daylength is only 9 hr? Kasselmann (_Aquarium Plants)_ recommends at least 12 hr for aquarium plants. This is kind of a basic, general requirement. Could be this isn't the problem for this particular plant species in your particular tank, but if your ferns are "daylength-sensitive", this could be the problem.

Everything else you're doing sounds reasonable.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

The reason I post this in NPT section is ...like I said before I have multiple tanks and this is just one example of my list of tanks. I have NPT that faces the same problem. The main reason I pick this tank is it has more ferns than any other tanks and yes, it's a medium tech tank. Regardless, NPT or not, the problem is the same in all the tanks. I expect this medium tech tank to be less problematic as NPT but that's not the case. One thing I see similarity in all the tanks are high temperature and amount of light. CO2 or no CO2, fertiliser or no fertiliser, the ferns are still in a bad shape. Just like Tanan, the high temperature from our countries are hard to lower unless you use chiller which is very costly to run - this is not something that I want.

What I mean by "bald" is the leaves drop and never grow back. So only rhizome remains.

Diana, thanks for pointing out about the amount of light. I will try it out. I am willing to try anything to resolve this problem. That's the main reason I have tried all kinds of fertiliser whenever someone gives me an idea.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I've grown ferns in 82F water, but 84 might be pushing it. Dropping leaves is a strange thing indeed... To rule out temperature problems take some of the ferns and put them in the coolest part of your house, the basement perhaps. To rule out nutrient problems and lighting issues try grow them emersed in the shade.


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## melauriga (Mar 20, 2009)

Do you have the ferns planted in the substrate, or are they attached to driftwood or stone?


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

My java fern seems to struggle/just hang on while other plants thrive. I get the impression that java fern does not always compete that well with other more vigorous plants. For example since I stripped out most of my vallis (which grew like a beast) all sorts of other plants have started to thrive such as sword plants and rotala rotundifolia (and to a small extent java fern) while others seemed to decline such as ludwigia. 

You also mention that leaves are taken over by green spot which could indicate a nutrient deficiency.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

totziens said:


> I have seen a friend who dumps her narrow leaf fern in a pot at the balcony without any fan or chiller...and she had no problem at all.


If her ferns are getting natural light (from Malaysian tropics), I'll bet the daylength for her plants is at least 12 hr/day.

I would forgot about nutrient deficiencies. By adding more fertilizers (especially iron), you're more likely to kill them with metal toxicity than help them.

I'd also rule out temperature. Kasselmann's book shows that the temperature optimum for Java fern is 20-28C with a maximum of 30C (86F). They can take the heat!


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## Tanan (Mar 11, 2009)

But still my ferns get a good 12 hour light and some direct sunlight too,but still they havent grown a bit,just got covered in BGA and getting balder every day.
I too think that heat isnt the problem,even cobomba and anachris can tolerate my exceedingly high 35 C temp.
And I dont fertilize or anything and lighting is just a 25 PC daylight bulb.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Zapins, I don't have any basement or any place cooler as I am living in an apartment. 

Melauriga, of course, the ferns are not planted in the substrate. They are all tied to driftwoods. 

Brenmuk, yes, I agree with you about nutrient deficiency leading to green spot algae. I am currently dosing Seachem Phosphorus to fight against it based on suggestion from friends.

Diana, yes, I suppose my friend's ferns are getting about 12 hours of light. I can confirm with her. Starting today, I have increased the lighting to 12 hours per day in my tank. The fertilisers used are Seachem Nitrogen, Seachem Flourish, Seachem Phosphorus, Seachem Potassium and ocassionally Seachem Excel. No iron is used currently but in the old tank (before it was broken and replaced last Saturday) had some ADA iron added in the substrate. The iron was added mainly for the Crypts (it didn't help much anyway).

In my NPT, I have some Philippines Ferns and Narrow Leaf Ferns. They look stunted as no new leaf has ever been produced. Eventually, they will consist of rhizomes only (just like my medium tech tank). Instead of green spot algae, they're attacked by BBA. No fertiliser, no CO2, no fan/chiller & no filter in this tank at all. Blyxa japonica is growing extremely well in this tank (BBA has never attacked them)- even my medium tech tanks cannot beat this tank in terms of keeping Blyxa healthy. I have not increased the lighting to 12 hours because beard algae is attacking plants such as Bacopa, Rotala, etc.


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

The best tank I've seen java fern grow in was in a neglected tank in my old work - it grew in the substrate and on ornaments -everywhere in fact it was the only plant in the tank. The tank only recieved a few hours of artificial light from an old tube while the rest of the time the light came from the lights from the office (not ideal texbook conditions but the java fern loved it).

Lets face it if the conditions are right for other plants to thrive like Blyxa japonica then you must be providing the basics for good plant growth. If some are thriving but not java fern then it may be at a disadvantage in terms of nutrient competition/allelopathy - so it might be the combination of plants that you have. Java fern if attached to rocks and wood does not feed from the substrate so that is one potential disadvantage it has compared to other rooted plants. 

If I were you and I might be tempted to remove the Blyxa japonica from the NPT (as an experiment) and see if java fern takes off. What you might find is that the next most dominant plant starts to thrive and take over but the java fern might pick up a bit. You could keep removing the next most dominant plant till you end up with the combination where java fern thrives.

In my NPT I have gone about things in a slightly different way I have chucked loads of plants into my tank and kept the plants that seem to grow well together.


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## melauriga (Mar 20, 2009)

totziens said:


> Melauriga, of course, the ferns are not planted in the substrate. They are all tied to driftwoods.
> 
> Sorry, I did not mean to insult your intelligence. But I had to ask, because you never know...


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I think after a bit of pondering the issue, there's something very fundamentally wrong here. Java fern takes skill and effort to kill, or one unobserved variable VERY out of place.

A nutrient has to be very deficient or toxic here. Something very specific must be very wrong. mere CO2 issues wouldn't do it; these are tough plants. Nutrients being a little ways out of line wouldn't do it either, these plants live in tap with inert substrate, fish food, and general neglect. I can't see it being broad, combined toxicity; there are other plants in this tank alive and well. If it's something quirky and specific, removing variables and simplifying the system will help.

Iron toxicity from fertilizing more than every six months? How was it Hoagland kept his plants alive with .5ppm Fe then? The symptoms certainly don't show toxicity or deficiency. This plant won't die at twice that rate.

Not enough or too little light? I've seen java fern hold up between .75wpg and 4.0wpg+ under many kinds of light, with synth periods between 12 and 6 hours with or without synth breaks. I'm sure many others can attest to this. Award winning tanks are grown anywhere between 8 and 12 hour photo periods with and without synth breaks all the time.

What we've got here is a variable stew (yes variable, not veritable). How about trying to remove as many unnecessary variables as possible? Those root tabs can go. Java fern can grow strapped to the side of a log, and you've got aquasoil in there now. There's a pile of fert brands running around, perhaps try consolidating and refining the method; the toxicity may lay there.

You could also try calculating the ppm's for everything you're dosing, and measure the degradation rate of the root tabs. You may be able to rationally figure out where the most likely problem is, if that's the sort of approach you like.

How frequent are your water changes? May I suggest trying a mass water change as a re-set to what ever toxic may be floating around?

Check your fish food. Compare it to high end brands. Anything seem out of place?

I think a stable, tested method to start from will help here. After you've got it established, then try playing with everything else. It's much easier to start stable than to chase variables around.

Pictures would also be nice. What you tell us you see might not be the same as what we observe of your tank through a few photos.

-Philosophos


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

My initial thoughts (and of course can only be guesses on someone else's tank) are:

144W over 50USG = 3WPG - Quite a lot of light.

You do a noon siesta which isn't to hurt algae. It is normally done to replenish CO2 in poorly supplied tanks where the CO2 runs out. thus the hour break gives the CO2 time to build for the second stint. The plants growing well then fights the algae. This method is usually only used on DIY yeast setups as they are notoriously hard to maintain consistent levels.

You only started dosing Phosphorus a week ago.

So my conclusions. For the amount of light oyu have your CO2 is struggling and not enough nutrient (especially phosphorus) is being added. The Seachem dosing schedule won't be enough for a heavily planted high light CO2 enriched setup.

I don't think its the temperature.

Are the ferns the only ones that have problems? Are there any other algae problems within the tank BBA?

With Ferns I tend to be aggressive. very aggressive. If a leaf shows signs of deterioration it comes out. even if the rhizome is then laid bare. They tend to come back much much stronger and thicker too.

AC


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes, my NPT is hit by BBA. As for the medium tech tank sometimes it gets hit by BBA too but I can easily get rid of them using Seachem Excel.

I have purposely hide the ferns that lost all the leaves with other plants. So it's impossible for me to capture any photos. Now I am trying to keep those ferns sheltered by other plants because some friends told me to avoid exposing them to direct light. I am not sure how true is this theory as well.

Here are the photos of my medium tech tank.

Overall view of the tank:








Java Fern with green spot algae:








Narrow leaf fern with green spot algae:








Brown narrow leaf fern:


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Here's my NPT.

Overall view of the tank:








Pathetic looking narrow leaf fern and Philippines fern at the background:


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Looks like your medium tank needs more CO2, and a higher flow rate if what I'm seeing there is BGA as well. Low NO3 or high pH can additionally contribute, depending on who you talk to.

Your NPT looks rather yellow... is this just bulb spectrum or NO3 deficiency? Again, CO2 is far too low with BBA growing like that.

Crank up the CO2, and figure out your target nutrient levels, plus a way to reach them. Do it through ferts, switch to a rich substrate, what ever works. Find an established method, or at least scientifically valid goals, and a way to reach them.

At one point I was chasing nutrients around too; using symptoms to address deficiencies. until I switched to a good working model, keeping plants alive was a frustration. Now that I've got a base line to start from, experimenting with ferts to find my own preference is quite easy because of the reduced variables. If something changes, it's usually because I changed it, so a fair part of what happens after is an indication of how the tank is reacting to what I've done, rather than whatever nutrient happens to be running out that I don't have under control. I think just about anyone with success in any method could tell you similar stories.

-Philosophos


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

In your NPT what kind of substrate do you have? From the picture it sorta looks like gravel only - is there soil under the gravel? I note you don't use a filter in this tank but do you have anything for water circulation?


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

The narrow fern is one of the easiest to grow. Pretty fast grower. I use it quite a lot :lol: There is also some Philippine on the left here.









I wouldn't bother shading them. There is no shade for mine anywhere in the tank and they go from bare to as you see within 6 months.

Key is the lighting. I wouldn't increase lights while you are struggling. I would reduce them. Either less wattage used (1.5-2WPG) for the 9 hours and/or cut the photoperiod down to 6 hours.

This will slow things down (including the algae) and put less pressure on the CO2, circulation and nutrients. Maybe try removing the 'siesta' under this lower lighting and see if things improve. If they do then you have found that the CO2/nutrients were not up to the job. You can then gradually increase the lighting again and increase CO2/nutrients to match. You will maybe find a happy medium eventually.

Not overly sure on the colour of the water in your NPT. Mine is pretty young (1½months old) and is still pretty clear but it does have 20x filtration on it.

AC


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

NPT:
The yellowish NPT s due to yellowish bulb spectrum and the soil was stirred up a bit in the past few month as I kept planting new plants and replanting those floating ones. I have stopped planting and re-planting lately. I have also stopped changing the water for the past 11 days because I was busy with my broken medium tech tank. Usually I do weekly water changes of 50%. I use top soil and Holland sand. You can't see any of the soil because I purposely hide them with Holland sand (I surrounded the tank with sand to hide the soil from being viewed through the glass). There's no filter or any circulation because I have run out of power socket in my power extension. 

Medium tech tank:
No, there's no BGA in this tank at all. What you see is probably green spot algae. Sorry that it's not that clear in the photos. Now, I am confused again because initially I have been told to increase the light, now someone is suggesting that I decrease it. This is what I mean by conflict of suggestion - I have encountered it many times when trying to solve this issue. Anyway, I have been setting 6 and 8 hours of lighting in the past - it didn't solve my problem. Now I have increased it to 10 hours 3 days ago I think and 12 hours (started just 1-2 days ago). Of course, I have yet to see any result as of now. Supercoley1, the look of your tank is what I expect out of my narrow leaf ferns but I have horrible looking ones. They all looked like the ones in your tank when I got them from my friend. A few months later, what you see is what I have today.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

I thought water changes weren't done on NPT? I haven't done any on mine for the first 6 weeks.

On the lighting issue the thinking behind the suggestion is this:

If you have algae in the tank then there is an inbalance somewhere, namely a defficiency. The longer the lights are on then the longer the algae gets to grow.

This is why you see much less algae in low light tanks. Not necessarily because they have everythin balanced but because the lower light slows the algae (and plants) growth down. It can be easier to 'dial in' the nutrients and CO2.

By increasing the lights more I am not saying the Fern won't pick up but if 9 hours ain't working then I don't expect an increase to improve things. However if there is algae of any sort I would expect an increase in algae. Maybe even some newer types appearing!!!

AC


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I remember pretty well that Diana advised me to change the water during the first few months but I think I will stick with that forever because my NPT is overloaded with too many fishes and the greedy Platies generate a lot of poo in the tank (aka fertiliser..haha)

Supercoley1, thanks for your explanation about the light. I have the same understanding as you too but it didn't solve the issue when I tried it. So, I am trying to increase it this time. I am willing to take whatever risk to get the problem fixed. If it fails, I will look for another alternative. Just curious, do you ever see your ferns pearling? I have never seen any from my ferns except for one tank with ADA florescent (this is the only tank I can keep ferns but not necessarily exceptionally well...at least no green spot algae and the leaves are healthy). The rest of my plants pearl quite easily in my medium tech tank. As for NPT, I have not seen any plant pearls before. I ask about pearling because I am trying to find out whether none pearling ferns is a bad sign.


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

For your NPT I would
1) Prune about 1/2 to 1/3 of the plants - I find this encourages healthy growth
2) Reduce to 1 or 2 50% Water changes per year - top up any water evaporation with rain water if possible - this will stop unnecessary removal of nutrients that the plants require and save you having to add extra ferts. Don't worry about fish waste the more the better your plants will lap it up and you effectively remove excessive waste/toxins etc by pruning.
3) Power sockets permitting I would introduce some form of gentle water circulation. 

It can be frustrating when you get conflicting advice for other enthusiasts (its always well meaning) the only thing I can say is that if you want an easy life with a planted tank then follow a tried and tested method - i try to follow Diana Walstads advice as far as I can for my NPT.

I agree with Supercoley1 about excessive light causing algae issues to appear sooner ie the amount of light and plant mass dictates nutrient demand but I have also read that the full photo period of 10 -12 hours light is physiologically important to plants and you should try to get sunlight into your tank for some/all of the day. You might want to have your lights set up so that they are on for the full photoperiod but only at their most intense for a few hours in the middle of the photoperiod. This is what I do and it works quite well for me with 2 tubes.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

Do my needle ferns pearl? Her's my answer









That is under only 0.9WPG T5HO. Low light according to the majority consensus . However the CO2 is at 30ppm with 17.6x turnover circulation.

I wouldn't worry too much about pearling. It is a little overplayed in the hobby. Yes it means that the plants are producing oxygen but no pearling does not mean they are not producing oxygen.

Pearling occurs when the water is saturate with O and therefore cannot take any more into solution (sort of like diffusion) and it forms as bubbles instead.

If your water is not saturated then the O produced goes into solution and you don't see it. You can see this in most tanks where they start to pearl some way into the photoperiod. The O was going into solution for a while and then once saturated the pearling starts. Tanks with high surface turbulence may pearl earlier due to there being more O being brought in 

A similar argument to people saying that one of the reasons reactors that dissolve all the CO2 are better than disc diffusers is that the bubbles rise to the surface and gas off. They don't question what happens with the CO2 in solution from the reactor. It still gasses off although they can't see the process happenning!!

So in summary pearling is a 'side effect' of photosynthesis. No pearling does not really mean the plants aren't photosynthesising. Just means they are not producing more O than the water is able to take.

On the photoperiod side of things I run both mine at 9 hours although the NPT Nano is full 9 hours where the Hi-tec 125Ltr is staggered to increase ½ hourly and has the full light for the central 4 hours.

They are both positioned to be out of all direct sunlight.

AC


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Pearling is a worthwhile consideration for the health of the fish. Highly oxygenated water will make for far happier fauna, so it's still a worth while pursuit.

I'm honestly not sure why one would bother to arbitrarily copy everything that nature does without careful examination. Pushing higher photo periods without accounting for intensity is kind of a bad idea given that plants are limited by their chemical respiration and nutrient fixation processes.

Not changing the water, as you've found, can be another issue. It's more difficult to avoid changing the water for long periods of time if anything is out of balance. Even nature sees water changes; many of the plants we keep are from rivers. 

-Philosophos


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Supercoley1 - that was a very good explanation of why plants pearl. In the past I have often wondered why my tanks sometimes pearl and other times don't no matter how much CO2 I put in the tank and how healthy the plants are but now it makes much more sense. Its not too often really good explanations like this show up on the forum, keep it up!

Currently my tank is almost all anubias and slow growing plants with a lot of guppies (40-50) and I only sometimes see pearling, much less then when I had all stem plants and no fish to use up the O2. 

Its too bad we don't have reputation points like we used to. If we did you'd have my vote


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

Zapins said:


> Supercoley1 - that was a very good explanation of why plants pearl. In the past I have often wondered why my tanks sometimes pearl and other times don't no matter how much CO2 I put in the tank and how healthy the plants are but now it makes much more sense. Its not too often really good explanations like this show up on the forum, keep it up!
> 
> Its too bad we don't have reputation points like we used to. If we did you'd have my vote


Don't make the compliments too frequent. You will ruin my reputation for opening up hornet's nests and always arguing against the 'well known long understood' practices in the hobby 

AC


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

lol, a lot of "Long understood" practices aren't well supported with evidence. Power to you


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I saw a bad sign in my medium tech tank. I found hair algae on the upper section plants that grew close to the light. 

I have decided to reduce the light to 8 hours again. My fear towards hair algae is worse than dead plants or green spot algae because they're the main destroyers of my tanks in the past. So, I am not taking any risk. I'll depend on Seachem Phosphorus to fight green spot algae and rescue the ferns.


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