# treating fin rot in NPT's



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Is there any type of meds for fin rot that can be used in an El natural tank that won't harm the plants, bacteria or snails? I think my boy has fin rot and I'd rather treat him in his larger tank rather then puttting him in his smaller one.

Thank you.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

Fin rot. like many diseases, is caused by stress. In aquariums, the stress can come from overcrowding, bullying tankmates, too low temperatures, and unsanitary conditions.

Supposedly it is easily treated by eliminating the source of the stress and dosing the fish with one of several antibiotics that should be available at your local fish store. Follow the directions on the container.

I don't know if the antibiotic can be added to his normal aquarium but to play it safe, it might be best to do it in the hospital tank. 

Good luck!

Bill


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

This summer, I had a problem with a Platy (1 of a group of 8 ) that was being pestered by my rummy nose tetras who was developing growths on anal fins and base of the fins, even onto the body. I was convinced she was a goner.

The infection was possibly as a result of stress/damage from nipping - or did the nipping start because the illness - hard to say, I found out after returning from 10 days vacation.

Happy to say, my Platy is recovering nicely after a course of *PimaFix/MelaFix*:

- I changed water 50%
- Added an airstone.
- Double dosed PimaFix/MelaFix (accidentally by balling up the conversion) for 3 days
- Changed water 50%
- Double dosed (again) for 4 days
- Changed water 50%.

She was in a bad state and had lost a lot of fin and ray, but they seem to be regrowing and she is behaving and eating normally again - the tetras even seem to have backed off. At one point, she was visibly "unbalanced" possibly from the infection, possibly because she lost some of her underbelly navigation surfaces!

During this time, my plants were unaffected (visibly at least).

After confessing to the LFS about my dosing "issue" one employee told me that he usually double (or triple) doses when using it...on purpose. He claims he has never lost a fish doing this - except maybe fish that were so far gone they didn't recover.

I don't recommend triple dosing - just sharing my experiences.

I am kind of fond of PimaFix/MelaFix (in my limited experience) mainly because they are not what I would consider chemically engineered pharmaceuticals or anti-biotic. I suspect that these two treatments are less of a threat should you overdose your tank. I may even just do double doses as a matter of course should I need to treat in the future.

No fish additions on about 1-1/2 years. This was "my" first illness since starting up the tank 2 years ago - and before that, it had been about 10 since I dealt with sick fish.

I hadn't dealt with a sick fish in so long, I was doing lots of reading to inform myself. Based on what I read and my experience this time, I am convinced that water changes are of a significant positive value when dealing with fish illness, especially in preventing spread of illness in a community tank.

I know we try not to do them with El Natural tanks, but if there is a pathogen in the water, or something causing the stress that leads to infection a water change seems to be a good idea in my amateur opinion.

Hope there's some good in my ramblings...


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## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm not 100% sure about Primafix, but Melafix is basically just tea tree oil. It may help with regrowth in minor fin rot cases but if it's an advanced case it's probably better to remove the fish and treat it with antibiotics. The other issue is resolving why the fin rot started, maybe just a water change would help out enough for the fish to get better on it's own. Adding a small amount of salt to the water (1 tbsp/5 gallons) would help out a bit although it's not the best for plants, so it would be good to do some water changes after the fin rot gets under control to change out the salt again. First thing I would do, though, would be a 50% water change and then watch to see how things go.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Well, I had gotten a magnifying glass from my grandfather so I could get a better look at Jake's ventral and it turns out that he doesn't have fin rot. Part of his right ventral just changed from red to a very dark blue. Next time I'll do a better check before making a thread. lol

There is something I would like to know about using meds in NPT's though. I know that there are certain meds that you can't put into these kinds of set ups but what about medicated food? Take Pepso food, for example. The medicinal ingredients in it are nitrofurazone and sodium sulfathiazole. After the fish passes the food, would it harm snails when they eat the feces or harm the tank in general?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I think it is rarely wise to add medications or any chemical (except nutrients) to a NPT unless one knows what the total effect on the aquatic environment will be, and that is hard to predict.

If a valuable or important fish absolutely has to be medicated, that is best done in a very clean, separate tank.

Many fish that would normally recover by themselves are killed by the medicines that they are given.

Bill


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> There is something I would like to know about using meds in NPT's though. I know that there are certain meds that you can't put into these kinds of set ups but what about medicated food? Take Pepso food, for example. The medicinal ingredients in it are nitrofurazone and sodium sulfathiazole. After the fish passes the food, would it harm snails when they eat the feces or harm the tank in general?


Good question!

The only thing I know now that will harm NPTs are copper sulfate and potassium permanganate. Copper and manganese are heavy metals that, will indeed, cause metal toxicity to fish and plants (my book, p 11).

Many medicated food deliver anti-parasite chemicals directly to the fish. These compounds specifically target parasites--- not plants. They are harmless.

Antibiotics don't seem to harm plants. I actually tested some and saw no inhibition.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I have found that when potassium levels drop below the detectable level with a LaMotte Kit, fin rot and other kinds of skin disease show up in guppies. Adding more potassium cures the condition in about 3 days.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Good question!
> 
> The only thing I know now that will harm NPTs are copper sulfate and potassium permanganate. Copper and manganese are heavy metals that, will indeed, cause metal toxicity to fish and plants (my book, p 11).
> 
> ...


Yes, but some/most will kill the nitrogen-fixing bacteria and that could lead to ammonia spikes, hurting the fish.

Bill


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> Yes, but some/most will kill the nitrogen-fixing bacteria and that could lead to ammonia spikes, hurting the fish.
> 
> Bill


Only in a tank without sufficient plants. Removing the biological filter from a planted tank will actually lower the amount of nitrate produced because the plants aren't competing with the bacteria for ammonia. Bacteria are ammonia converters while plants are ammonia users. When I removed my biofilter, my ammonia never spiked and my nitrates are slowly falling.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> Good question!
> 
> The only thing I know now that will harm NPTs are copper sulfate and potassium permanganate. Copper and manganese are heavy metals that, will indeed, cause metal toxicity to fish and plants (my book, p 11).
> 
> ...


Well, it's good to know that the food won't harm anything in the tank. Even though my betta has never had a problem since with internal parasites, I still like to keep the food nearby just in case.

I do have another question. Is copper sulfate bad if there is a small amount in fishfood? From what I've read on the back of the fishfood that I give to my boy(Hikari Micro Pellets), it says it contains copper sulfate. Would that amount hurt anything? All of my little snails are fine and my plants are growing well. I've been feeding him this food the entire time he's been in his NPT tank and even before then. I would feed him the Hikari Bio-pellets but even when I pre soak the pellet before feeding it to him, he still ends up with digestive problems. That's why I switched to the micro pellets.

HeyPK, I'll look into those LaMotte Kits. They sound interesting.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Endler Guy said:


> Only in a tank without sufficient plants. Removing the biological filter from a planted tank will actually lower the amount of nitrate produced because the plants aren't competing with the bacteria for ammonia. Bacteria are ammonia converters while plants are ammonia users. When I removed my biofilter, my ammonia never spiked and my nitrates are slowly falling.


You are correct that tanks with a lot of healthy, growing plants will consume extra ammonia. But there are a lot of variables to consider. Not all planted tanks have a lot of healthy, growing plants. Some do rely on bacteria to reduce the ammonia/ammonium. Then there is the question of Ph, the fish stocking level, and a number of other things.

It is safer to medicate fish in a separate tank, if one really needs to medicate.

Bill


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## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

Endler Guy said:


> Only in a tank without sufficient plants. Removing the biological filter from a planted tank will actually lower the amount of nitrate produced because the plants aren't competing with the bacteria for ammonia. Bacteria are ammonia converters while plants are ammonia users. When I removed my biofilter, my ammonia never spiked and my nitrates are slowly falling.


That's good to know. I was thinking about taking out my filter since hopefully my soil is finished releasing ammonia and the nitrates are through the roof now. I think I'll try it, do a big water change, and see what happens.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I've used Potassium permanganate in my NPTs, neutralized it with peroxide, follow by a large partial water change and haven't had an issues with it that I'm aware of. 

The copper in fish foods shouldn't be a problem.


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