# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Using Seachem Prime (Declorinator) during new tank cycling...



## Chee Boon Yong (Jul 28, 2004)

Hi all,

I recently had a outbreak of green water. The tank is not new but I did change all the filter media in my Ehiem 2026 a month ago, so probably lost all that bacteria there. Some additional background info: 4x2x2 ft tank (432 litres/~90-100 gallons), bioload of 100 boraras (dwarf rasboras, very small) and assorted small fishs about 30 (apistos, otos, badis badis, etc).

After reading through a lot of posts here, seems like the most likely reason for GW outbreak is excessive ammonia. I think there is a possibility that my GW was induced due to the new tank syndrome of ammonia build-up(because I changed my filter media) but I thought my bioload wasn't that high for my tank size, so the existing bacteria in my gravel would be sufficient to ensure a smooth transition. I'm using ADA Aquasoil, which has a high CEC capacity. I _thought_ that also means the gravel is likely to be porous and should house a lot of bacteria. Guess I could be mistaken here.

Anyway, by the time the GW had gotten pretty out of hand, I tested for ammonia and found that it was at insignificant levels to read off my Sera test kit. Could be the kit was inaccurate but no sure way of confirming that.

So, I set about thinking...if the new tank syndrome wasn't (it could be but just entertaining other possibilites) the cause of the ammonia spike resulting in GW, then where did the ammonia come from?

This is just my wild speculation here.

I looked at my local water parameters which came from my tap.

Interesting remark: The residual chlorine present in tap water is in the form of chloramines or free chlorine. Residual Chlorine (as Cl, Total) is <2.0 mg/l or ppm.

Level of ammonia is not stated. I suppose any free ammonia would be binded to the chlorine to form chloramine.

Typical tap water parameters in Singapore

By itself, chloramine is stable and should not breakdown into chlorine and ammonia easily (I think).

Now, during my weekly water changes, I added in Seachem Prime, which is supposed to remove 
*chlorine, chloramine and ammonia.*

I hereby attach the description from the Seachem website at the bottom of my post.

Anyway, some interesting points which confused me. Prime removes chlorine by binding it with ammonia to form chloramine, which is stable and does not breakdown. However, it goes on further to claim that using Prime will not halt your tank cycling because the ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Then it also tries to differentiate between free ammonia and ionised ammonia. Gosh, I'm lost now...I thought free ammonia is just that, free. Ionised ammonia means it's bonded with something else? or is it still ammonia? Supposedly ionised ammonia is not toxic but it doesn't state whether GW spores can take advantage of it. Since it states that bacteria can consume it, it appears there's the chance GW spores can consume it too, thereby leading to a GW bloom.

Ok, so in conclusion, what I'm trying to say is that using Prime may reduce your ammonia by merging it with chlorine but the merged ammonia can still be tapped by GW spores/bacteria. So while the toxicity of ammonia to fish is removed, GW can still propagate. Hence, using Prime during cycling (to remove ammonia) does not mean that GW will not occur because ammonia has been "removed".

I suspect there is probably something wrong with my line of reasoning, so if anyone can point it out to me, I would be so grateful.

Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes *chlorine, chloramine and ammonia*. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Q: I am using Prime™ to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on? 
A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime™... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime™). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime™), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime™ or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the ionized form is not toxic)).

Q:I tested my tap water after using Prime and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine? 
A: Prime works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime will not halt your cycling process. 
I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our Multitest Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours.

Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.


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## Chee Boon Yong (Jul 28, 2004)

Hi all,

I recently had a outbreak of green water. The tank is not new but I did change all the filter media in my Ehiem 2026 a month ago, so probably lost all that bacteria there. Some additional background info: 4x2x2 ft tank (432 litres/~90-100 gallons), bioload of 100 boraras (dwarf rasboras, very small) and assorted small fishs about 30 (apistos, otos, badis badis, etc).

After reading through a lot of posts here, seems like the most likely reason for GW outbreak is excessive ammonia. I think there is a possibility that my GW was induced due to the new tank syndrome of ammonia build-up(because I changed my filter media) but I thought my bioload wasn't that high for my tank size, so the existing bacteria in my gravel would be sufficient to ensure a smooth transition. I'm using ADA Aquasoil, which has a high CEC capacity. I _thought_ that also means the gravel is likely to be porous and should house a lot of bacteria. Guess I could be mistaken here.

Anyway, by the time the GW had gotten pretty out of hand, I tested for ammonia and found that it was at insignificant levels to read off my Sera test kit. Could be the kit was inaccurate but no sure way of confirming that.

So, I set about thinking...if the new tank syndrome wasn't (it could be but just entertaining other possibilites) the cause of the ammonia spike resulting in GW, then where did the ammonia come from?

This is just my wild speculation here.

I looked at my local water parameters which came from my tap.

Interesting remark: The residual chlorine present in tap water is in the form of chloramines or free chlorine. Residual Chlorine (as Cl, Total) is <2.0 mg/l or ppm.

Level of ammonia is not stated. I suppose any free ammonia would be binded to the chlorine to form chloramine.

Typical tap water parameters in Singapore

By itself, chloramine is stable and should not breakdown into chlorine and ammonia easily (I think).

Now, during my weekly water changes, I added in Seachem Prime, which is supposed to remove 
*chlorine, chloramine and ammonia.*

I hereby attach the description from the Seachem website at the bottom of my post.

Anyway, some interesting points which confused me. Prime removes chlorine by binding it with ammonia to form chloramine, which is stable and does not breakdown. However, it goes on further to claim that using Prime will not halt your tank cycling because the ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Then it also tries to differentiate between free ammonia and ionised ammonia. Gosh, I'm lost now...I thought free ammonia is just that, free. Ionised ammonia means it's bonded with something else? or is it still ammonia? Supposedly ionised ammonia is not toxic but it doesn't state whether GW spores can take advantage of it. Since it states that bacteria can consume it, it appears there's the chance GW spores can consume it too, thereby leading to a GW bloom.

Ok, so in conclusion, what I'm trying to say is that using Prime may reduce your ammonia by merging it with chlorine but the merged ammonia can still be tapped by GW spores/bacteria. So while the toxicity of ammonia to fish is removed, GW can still propagate. Hence, using Prime during cycling (to remove ammonia) does not mean that GW will not occur because ammonia has been "removed".

I suspect there is probably something wrong with my line of reasoning, so if anyone can point it out to me, I would be so grateful.

Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes *chlorine, chloramine and ammonia*. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Q: I am using Prime™ to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on? 
A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime™... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime™). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime™), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime™ or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the ionized form is not toxic)).

Q:I tested my tap water after using Prime and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine? 
A: Prime works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime will not halt your cycling process. 
I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our Multitest Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours.

Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Boon Yong,
My chemistry is a bit rusty. But I could tell you a bit of what I know. Many parts of my explanation are similar to your theories but there are a few exceptions.

There are 2 type of dechlor products. One can only remove chlorine and the other like PRime can remove chloramine. Chloramine is part ammonia and part chlorine. This kind of dechlor product remove chlorine and then process the ammonia into ammonium form which is non-toxic to fish. This is where the test kit confuses people. Dechlor products those can only remove chlorine could not break chloramine at all.

There are 2 type (not brands) of ammonia test kit. 
The first one is nessler test. Any brands those use this method cannot differentiate ammonia to ammonium. It will read ammonium as ammonia. So, after you use your Prime, the end result should be ammonium in the tank. Any nessler test kits will read some level of ammonia.
The second one is salicylate test kit. This method could differentiate ammonia to ammonium. If you use this test kit, you will have no reading in your tank after using Prime.

In US, the average ammonia concentration in chloramine is between 0.25-0.5ppm. 

I'm not sure how dechlor product can affect Nitrte nor nitrate though.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Regarding green water, there are other factors beside ammonia. They feed on ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, CO2 and light. Any imbalance could cause it. I'm currently setting up my 4th planted tank and having the same problem. There is nothing in the tank except plants right now (no fish). The problem started when my ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate levels were all at 0. The only thing I add there is CO2 injection and 4wpg of lighting. I'm not really worried because I know the tank hasn't reached its balance yet. Of course I'm adding more plants, reducing light time and CO2 level to make sure that the green water doesn't get worse.

If you said you started having the problem right after you cleaned the filter, then that might be it. Do you use any bioballs or any bio-media in the canister? Those medias need to be cleaned (with tank water) regularly also. The waste and dirts trapped in there could become nitrate producer. This is a common problem with wet/dry filter. You don't want to kill the beneficial bacteria but don't want to have dirts trapped in the bio media also.


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## Chee Boon Yong (Jul 28, 2004)

My chemistry is even worse than you...







Guess there's a reason why I took accountancy...

How does dirt that's trapped in bioballs become nitrate producer? I assume the "dirt" is actually organic waste/mulm, which when decomposed by bacteria will produce nitrate? I always thought rotting stuff produce hydrogen sulphide instead to give off that smelly eggs odour.

Back to the Declorinator (Prime version). So it breaks chloramine into ammonia and chlorine. Then it turns ammonia into ammonium. What happens to the chlorine? How does it get removed? And what happens to the ammonium then? Is my biological filter bacteria supposed to change it into nitrates?

Interestingly, I read elsewhere in a FAQ reply by Seachem that the effects of the declorinator will expire after 24 hours in the water. I guess that means the ammomium will revert back to ammonia if the bacteria hasn't gotten to it yet. Seachem recommends a 2nd dose 24 hours later if the tank has not cycled properly.

Oh by the way, I'm going to put in some daphnia to try and "cure" the green water. Tried Flocculants and basically screwed my fish up. Breathing difficulty. No more for me...


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

From my understanding, They don't actually remove chlorine. They neutralize chlorine. But chlorine itself will dissipate once the water is out in the open. That's why many people choose to age their water. Chloramine treated water won't get the chlorine dissipate with age that's why you need dechlor that can break the chloramine apart. So the process would be breaking the chloramine, neutralize chlorine and convert ammonia into ammonium. I don't think ammonium can convert back to ammonia unless in very high alkaline water.

Regarding the biomedia becoming nitrate producer, there are many discussions on this in the net. Some people still prefer this method because of the high oxygen level created from the drip plate. Here's one of the discussion on it : http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/filtration/a/aa090298.htm


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