# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Could I have slowly poisoned my Red Cherry Shrimp?



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi all,

I've kept Red Cherry Shrimp for awhile now, and had a nice breeding colony going.

But, I've experienced a lot of die-off recently, and much more than would be expected of just the natural population turnover. I've done water changes, and checked the parameters, and nothing is out of whack. Plus, its happened in THREE different tanks, which vary with their substrates (two soil-based w/sand, one kitty litter clay w/sand), the "age" of how long they've been running, vary slightly with water chemistry, are kept at different temperatures and have different plant and fish populations. I was puzzled by what the common factor could be.

Then, one day, I read the ingredients of the Wardley's Shimp Pellets, which the fish, snails (huge brigs) and shrimp seem to love, and which I've been giving them more and more of lately. One of the ingredients is Copper Sulfate! Then I looked at the small and medium Pellets I got recently (New Life Spectrum Small Fish and Community formulas), and which has become the most frequent feed for my fishes (and by default, the shrimp as well). These also both listed Copper Sulfate in the ingredients! Now does it make sense to think that as toxins are often cumulative (especially in aquatic animals - think mercury warnings about fish from local ponds) I'm wondering if I've been inadvertantly poisoning my Shrimp with Copper? I run "El Natural" style planted tanks, and feed pretty liberally.

I'm also wondering because a few shrimp went down to a big fish bowl in the basement (under lights with my terrarium plants) as the cleaning crew for some emergent-grown glosso as it transitions over to submerged growth. I brought the dregs of some flake food down to the plant stand, and they've gotten only that food, and rather infrequently. They're fine. 

I started looking at ingredients in other fish foods online, and I'm really surprised at how many have Coppper Sulfate. So, I just got a selection of foods which do not list it in their ingredients. 

Any other thoughts on this matter?
Thanks,
Jane


----------



## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

it sure sounds like that could be the culprit. i hate it that you are having this trouble. have you found any fish foods that don't have the copper? 
when i feed my shirmp only tanks, i only feed algae wafers, you know the cheap ones from walmart. i use the regular tetra brand fish food in my tank, i guess i should check it for copper...


----------



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi Russell,

yes, thank goodness the Drs. Foster & Smith site has a LOT of information - (other sites have VERY little). Each type of food has an ingredients list, so after a LOT of "research", I put together a list of non-copper containing foods. One even had Copper Proteinate - sounds like copper bound up into a protein, which to me implies that it would get more thoroughly absorbed by the body. 

Sheesh, I've been wondering WHAT's wrong with my shrimp! They literally used to be having a field day in my tanks! Over the summer, reproduction fell WAY down, then became non-existant. I figured it was the heat - most of my tanks reached 80-84 F every few weeks, and I saw females carrying, and then losing eggs, so it seemed like the heat was a likely cause. Now, they've been keeling over!

Granted, I got a few new ones (possible source of illness?), thinking perhaps the breeding stock was too inbred. Some animals, and even a few marine invertebrates, will not breed with a sibling. But, the introduced ones were home-raised from a reputable source, but very young. I had the tanks cleaned up a bit, and waited until even the newest one was done with most of the cycling. The youngest dropped like flies, while the older ones hung on for a few months. 

But when I look at it, the three main foods were ALL containing Copper Sulfate. Its the only thing which makes sense! I started feeding the New Life Spectrum in June. The fish absolutely love this food. I also increased the frequency of feeding the Shrimp Pellets, trying to use it up, as it was approaching nearly a year old. Everyone ate it eagerly, and I put extra in for the big Mystery Snails. I got the "reinforcements" of baby shrimp in late August. I'm now down to 5 Red Cherry Shrimp. At one point, there were at least 30 juveniles and adults (and who knows how many babies) in the breeding colony, and about a dozen between the other two tanks. 

Sorry to vent so much, its just this sudden realization. I really don't think it was water quality, because the populations in all three tanks went downhill so fast. Plus, the other invertebrates (various kinds of snails) were breeding like bunnies, and the fish were breeding too. Fish babies were surviving, but not shrimp babies. Copepods have a stable population in the big community tank, and aren't microorganisms supposed to be like the canary in the coal mine?

Anyhow, I got some Hikari Tropical Crab (hermit crab) food, which has extra calcium and no copper. Also, fish foods with no copper, and some spirulina granules with no copper. I'm going to order some more Red Cherry Snails from "Snips N Snails Mystery Snails" after the Holidays. Susan raises great Brigs snails, and her shrimp look hale and hearty too. By then, I'll have set up a shrimp-only tank (with an established filter), and done several water changes on the community tanks where I may re-introduce shrimp. 

Hey, Russ, you know the Tetra food had basically nice ingredients, but then at the end were artifical colors - purely for HUMAN color appreciation, I'm sure!

Yeah, I know there MIGHT have been other factors, but the timeline really points me to the triple-whammy of foods with copper. So nowadays, I'll read the labels for my fish food, too!
Thanks for listening to the rant!
-Jane


----------



## Maxmillion (Mar 12, 2004)

Hi, I have also noticed this in some fish foods and have not feed any to my shrimp in my 20 gal. They just get algae wafers--the ones from Hikari and sometimes the other ones--sinking wafers(one with the picture of a catfish on the front), and tetra flake now and then. I sometimes wonder if those foods with copper sulfate could also be poisoning the fish slowly.....since copper can't be good for them either??? What about the small amouts of copper in certain trace element mixes?


----------



## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i think a little is ok. i know there is copper in my oklahoma water, but my shrimp are still doing fine. luckily i selected a copper free food (by accident









so i guess maybe a little copper doesnt hurt...

i'm excited to see if your tank gets better now jane.


----------



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Thanks you guys.

Yes, about the copper in trace element mixes, I was asked if I fertilize or supplement the plant life in these tanks. (I posted a corresponding inquiry on a shrimp-only forum). I don't. Only if I see some paling of the plants (which is pretty rare), I'll put a bit of Flourish in to tide the tank over until I have the time to really figure out what's going on). 

Hmmm, I recall reading in Diana Walstad's book the relative toxicity of copper to aquatic life, as compared to the toxicity to humans. What's considered "safe" and acceptable in humans is far more than is toxic to copper-sensitive aquatic critters (with or without vertebrae). Also, I keep lots of floating plants just for that reason, as they'll suck up and "store" many metals. I usually compost a good portion of these plants when I'm thinning down their numbers, effectively removing the metals from the tank. 

This is why I keep thinking it's probably the food - because its selectively taken IN to the organisms through eating, rather than being taken up through their general environment (which I purposefully pre-treat the water and then stock with plants to reduce such toxins.

Well, I'll report my findings with the new foods. What I might do is put the survivors in one tank, and see what happens with their longevity and/or breeding using the non-copper foods. 

Perhaps its worth getting a copper test kit for freshwater. Couldn't hurt (except in the wallet). 

Max, I'm glad you've noticed this and had similar concerns as well. So I'm not just paranoid, eh?

-Jane


----------



## Maxmillion (Mar 12, 2004)

yea, it kinda makes me look twice at the food labels. Sometimes while I'm standing there comparing labels I feel like I'm getting the food for me to eat????


----------



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

LOL, Max! Yep, that's familiar - if anything, I now read the fish food lables MORE carefully than the ones for myself!

New foods arrived last night, so I'll see how they fare, and update then.

Thanks,
Jane


----------



## Maxmillion (Mar 12, 2004)

what types of new foods did ya get???


----------



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Here's the new schmorgasboard:

OSI Shrimp Pellets, copper-free. These are much harder/denser than the Wardley's, so I can't break the larger ones up with a fingernail like I used to. They don't soften up in water as quickly either, so the fish who had learned to mouth the pellets a few times until they broke up are a bit frustrated now. Fish & Shrimp have also taken longer to accept these, but now seem to like them. Also, the bottle is HUGE (looked moderate size in the pict) so I'll be using these for a long, long time, LOL! For the price, I was expecting a medium sized bottle, so I guess this was a good deal, price-wise. 

OSI Spirulina Flake Food (copper-free). Everyone seems to eagerly eat this. In the 15 gal (Endler's livebearers, Java Rice Fish and Bumblebee shrimp), the endler's snatch it all up very quickly, so I have to poke some down into the water quickly in the plant forest, for the shrimp to find. 

Aquarian Tropical Flake Food (copper-free). Everyone seems to really love this food. Again, I have to "sneak" some into the corners for the shrimp, as I've seen a shirmp eating on a large flake, when a fish comes and sucks it away from them. 

Hikari Crab Cuisine (Hermit Crab). Also copper free and with extra calcium for shell development, this is very popular, and softer than the new Shrimp Pellets. The fish keep snatching it away, so again, I have to drop some in the corners while distracting the fish with something yummy front and center. 

Marineland Labs Bio-Blend Tropical fish food. The Angel fish especially like this, as it sinks fairly slowly, so they can mull it over for a few seconds before eating. The fish like it very well, but so far, the shrimp seem to ignore it when they come across a piece. 

Continuing Feeding (foods I had before that I'm still feeding) ****************

Marineland Labs sinking wafers. If everyone is fairly hungry, these will get eaten, but most times they get ignored or slightly nibbled by the Fish and Shrimp. The small ramshorn and (few remaining) pond snails will finally mob it and eat it up (even the MTS), but I think it was contributing to an increase in snail population, so I've reduced the feeding of this, and I try to break the wafer into pieces first.

Snips N Snails Groumet Snail Snax. While there is a bit of copper in these, its part of the "23 vitamins & minerals". Its the one exception in my new No-Copper-in-Food rule. Plus, my big Brigs snails (Pink, Purple and Ivory) simply adore this food, and the shimp really like it too. Extra calcium, and protein rich, its made by a cottage-industry person, with fresh veggies & fruit pulverized, formed and put through a dehydrator. Good ingredients, so its a keeper.

Hikari Freeze-Dried Daphnia. I treat this like a snack, ("popcorn" for the fish?) and I think it somehow "seeds" the tanks for microorganisms. I have seen the shimp eagerly eating these, and I think its a good source of calcium. 

Sweetwater Freshwater Zooplankton (canned Daphnia and similar). This is a wet treat, and everyone goes gonzo for it. The Shrimp will grab a big daphnia and zip away to go eat it in peace. The snails (especially the Brigs) will suck them in with relish. In my semi-agressive tank (no shrimp), the Yo Yo loaches will make smacky sounds for hours at the surface after feeding this, as they look for any smidgen that got "stuck" in the floating plants. 

Fresh Veggies - when I think of it, or I'm making veggies for myself, I'll put in a half-cooked slice of zuchini or cucumber, or leaf of spinach. Cuke and Zuchini are hits, the spinach less so. The garbonzo bean got a lukewarm reception, but on the second try, the shrimp picked at it, and the snails mobbed it. A small piece of the meat of a tomatoe went over pretty well. The smidgen of orange was ignored by everyone. 

Whew, well, that's it!
-Jane

PS - The New Life Spectrum food is currently being used up/fed only to my tank without shrimp (the "semi-agressive" tank, with Angels, Yo Yo loaches and Gardnerii Killifishes).

PS #2 - I should really put this much thought into what I feed MYSELF, huh? Thank goodness for the late-night drive through and Wendy's Salads, LOL!


----------

