# Tom Barr discovery (no-algae startup?)



## Terra Incognita (Jun 12, 2007)

So I was reading around at another forum today, and I stumbled across a post made by Tom Barr there. It was claiming 100% Algae-Free startup by growing a carpet emergent, and adding water later. The post can be seen HERE. I don't fully understand it, but he seems very confident in his findings, and is an accomplished aquascaper, so I am trusting it works, however I need more explaination on what is actually done. Any comments or ideas about it are certainly welcome, as well. If I understand it right, carpet plants are grown emersed while the tank is covered to keep humidity in.. like a terrarium, and water is added when the carpet is grown in. Is this right, and would it really work as it's said to?


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I wonder how that would work with a dramatically sloped substrate, would very low water levels with a cover on the tank keep it damp enough for carpeting HC or Hairgrass 5 or 6" above the water line.


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

You would have to mist it probably. HC and Hairgrass don't need to be really wet.


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## Terra Incognita (Jun 12, 2007)

The same question was asked on the original topic at aquariacentral. Apparently, Tom has grown a carpet on a heavily sloped substrate using this method as well.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I kind of figured that, just had to ask, thanks for the confirmation.
I will go read the whole thing, too bad I just set up a 75 gallon this weekend and can no longer try this
look for the build thread coming tonight.


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## frozenbarb (Feb 8, 2007)

Just like emerged Setup, You will be Less prone to Algae if grown Emerged,

Grow tank of HC during summer, at fall add water and light co2 and everything.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Well this is no new technique to me I know of this trick for 3 years now a guy I know here in Greece that is going to the AGA meetings in japan has told that some far east guys were doing it to get luxurious growth in grasses there and then getting them immersed to make landscapes for the AGA competition, it was a gossip among the people there.
So it is no Barr's invention. Aquasoil seems to be a good substrate option for it.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Tom Barr didn't claim this as a new thing, but he did say he wondered why it wasn't a widely used technique for starting a tank. It may be a new thing as a way of starting a planted tank, as opposed to using it as a way to grow HC, etc. carpets.

In any case I am now planning on trying this method for starting a new tank. It is always fun to try something different, whether it is new or not, and the planning is half the fun.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I wondered how his post was going to appear here without him being able to post it! He posted it on every other forum... Algae can grow on anything that is wet. A rock, gravel, wet wood, anything. Light and moisture is all you need to grow algae. My patio furniture gets wet every morning from the lawn sprinklers. It has algae growing on it. Pauludariums/vivariums get algae. How is this any different?

I grow HC, micranthemoides and lobelia in an inch of water with flourescents 6" above it. It gets algae.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

Just as poster above has already stated Tom didn't claim that he discovered this and as usual I think if you search a little you will find that Tom has tested before posting rather than make a bold claim. 

Seems to me this forum just wants to discredit him at every opportunity rather than read what he says properly.

He never makes a 'This is my method claim' He does test and play quite a lot and then backs up what he says with the controls tests etc rather than with hearsay.

I don't think anyone who is as succesful as him and builds aquascapes for a living, then gives out his 'shortcuts' to anyone who wants them for free when he could just stay silent is at the end of the day a thoroughly good chap, even if he does sound a little tetchy in his posts sometimes.

I have used several of the methods that he explains (notice I say explains not invented) and they have all worked pretty well for me.

I think his tanks prove his ability too.

Enough of Tom Barr praise from me I think.

Why is he not able to post it himself. Has Tom Barr been barred? (excuse the pun) If so why would any plant forum ban such an experienced and respected source of advice, help and inspiration?

Andy


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Seems to me this forum just wants to discredit him at every opportunity rather than read what he says properly.
> He never makes a 'This is my method claim' He does test and play quite a lot and then backs up what he says with the controls tests etc rather than with hearsay.


This forum? No, trust me "this forum" is no different than any other. Any time I dare say anything to challenge the plant god I am in the minority. I think I know how to read. You grow carpet plants emersed in shallow water to "start" an aquarium. OK... Whats the big deal? 90% of these plants are grown that way in greenhouses, but you can still get algae in or around the plants. If you are ever in Oregon I will show you my set up.


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## bbentzen (Apr 7, 2005)

When you grow plants emersed the leaves are above the water and thus they don't grow algae. In my limited experience, you don't necessarily need to mist the plants. I just put a heater in some water and seal the tank off. The tank will be 100% humidity and you will be much less likely to have any algae grow on your plants. The thing to remember is that some plants will have a different growth pattern emersed than they have submersed.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well I get hair algae growing on top of the gravel around the base of the plant attached to the stems. If I don't remove it the hair algae grows in layers on top of itself, ingulfing the plant. With a real low growing plant like HC, it actually covered the plant. Now my water line was just about even with the substrate.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything like that.

I don't think Tom is the plant God.

I just think he is very helpful to a lot of people and offers many different options to people that don't have the experience or the facilities to do what he does. There are others I read as well in the UK and further afield and many peoples ideas or opinions do vary. I am open minded enough to try many people's ideas but sensible enough to use more experienced or knowledgable peoples advice to my (coin a phrase. lol) achieve my goals.

I always thought people called Amano the plant god.

I would call Tom a guru rather than a god because he points you in the right direction to learn rather than says here are your instructions. follow them and do not deviate from them.

His style is more to say here are 10 different methods. Choose your poison and then adapt it to suit your own needs, whereas a lot of others on many sites say This is the only way and this is how it should be done.

I understand that algae can grow in damp conditions and not just in water. Thats common sense really but as I haven't read this particular post (because I am moving away from the carpeting look) then I can't really comment specifically on it.

I'll probably get banned as well now for daring to challenge the APC way.

I have used EI and it worked very well for me. I have used the Walstad method. I have used the PMDD. These both worked with moderate success but not as well as EI. My current method is probably closer to the APC championed method (can't remember what its called) which is basically lean EI (similar also to Amanos current thinking) where I am dosing just enough andhave a Tropica Substrate with Leonardite underneath and playsand on top. Still with CO2 and with only 0.9 - 1.8WPG.

This is mainly due to the fish I am adding being Cichlids and I want the nitrates low. Also it is mainly a crypt tank and therefore I feel water column dosing isn't needed as much nor high light.

This is probably a combination of Barrs Hybrid version of the Walstad method, the one on here and Amanos. Who cares whose it is. I am using many sources for my own aim to achieve what I want.

I will read his thread though just out of curiosity to se if he explains why this method doesn't get algae.

I think Tom would say he is open to challenge but to challenge him he is right in saying where are your tests. where is your control. where is your proof.

If you have done the tests and used a control then as far as I am concerned then I would read the challenges.

I think Tom would be big enough to accept he was wrong on a subject if someone offered him real proof, but far too often the challenges I read against him are not backed up.

Maybe I read too many of his posts because I am starting to sound like him now reading this back to myself.

Andy


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Tom suggested keeping the water level below the top of the substrate, like an eighth of an inch or so. Maybe that is sufficient to stop algae from growing on the substrate.

This afternoon I plan to try an emersed setup with HYGROPHILA SP. 'PORTO VELHO', because I have some. I will use zeolite sand as a substrate, and will use houseplant food, making sure it contains urea, as fertilizer. My reason for doing this is to find out if, when I add water up over the plants, will I get ammonia in the water and algae blooms. My belief is that I won't because the zeolite will adsorb the ammonia and keep it out of the water column. I will see if I get any algae on the substrate, while I am at it.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

I think this is an interesting concept. Even though I don't have the time, space or cash to experiment with it.

But I'm really curious as to why there is so much hostility?


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> I'll probably get banned as well now for daring to challenge the APC way.


Will you stop saying that! Do you hear anyone else speaking up other than me? The Barr nation is strong and many and everywhere including APC. There is no APC "way" and if there was it certainly wouldn't like me!

I just find it amusing that anything that comes out of his head causes a big fervor. If any one else suggested the same exact thing nobody would pay any attention to it. Every six months or so Tom comes out with a big announcement. Its like clockwork. I think he does it when he's board or traffic on his WEB site is too low!

I'm half kidding. Maybe you are right Hoppy. Post your results. Maybe I will try it too.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Supercoley1 I have one question for you.........


Are you Tom Barr?


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

I wish I was because my tanks do get some problems and his look great.

Also I could go on those exploratory trips he posts and also enjoy the american climate rather than the very cold winds here in Lincoln at the moment (England).

Ask a moderator to check out my IP and location etc.

I am a fan of Tom's tanks but then I am a fan of George Farmer, Philipe Oliveira and many many others.

I am a fan of the way Tom freely gives his knowledge away

I agree that when he says things it does cause a fervour because he is trusted as he explains well and shows what he does.

I don't always do things the way he does, but I may make use of something here and there and mix it with something like PPS Pro (I remembered now I think) and mix it with a natural method making a hybrid that suits my routine.

Thats the trade off to achieve your goals <---- Lol Now thats what Tom would say

Andy


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Cool it guys.
Nobody has banned Barr it is his choice not to be here.
For some people Barr methods works for some others they don't and that is that. You thing Barr is the only one that have tests or control or all the rest? Lots of people are testing and trying to sort things out for themselves and maybe the rest of us in the process. Here in APC we don't claim to have the way, all is open, people are suggesting their approaches and failures all the time and things evolve. 
Robert you can surely say anything you want and wonder on all this, lots of other people had problem with his method as well it is only one approach, time and feedback will shape the best approach on the whole fertilizing thing and surely flexibility and open mindedness will help on this.
Now to the subject you don't need to have any water above the soil in emersed growth of grasses you can just keep the soil always wet and that is it so no algae this way. As you all know lots of the grasses have different leaves in emersed and submersed form so prolly plants like hairgrasses will melt their leaves when submersed from the emersed form and grow new ones. So I reckon in the process algae can grow or not depending on your care and ferts, it would surely work pretty well if you took photos just a bit after you filled the tank and added some other plants from another tank.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> Supercoley1 I have one question for you.........
> 
> Are you Tom Barr?


He couldn't be. He writes in plain English, without misspelled or misused words. As much as I respect Tom, his typing and/or spelling skills are not the greatest.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

Thats because I am english and even though only educated to high school level (more through my foolishnes as a youngster) I got high grades in all 10 of my subjects. Enough to go to university but at the time I was only interested in earning money NOW. lol

Of course it helps coming from the country which originated the language as I can pronounce and spell all the words correctly....Ooh...only joking.

I'm quite surprised that someone asked the question though. I must sound very forceful and confident. lol

Andy
(Junior Aquascaper)


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## FacePlanted (Aug 13, 2007)

Hah!, that is exactly what I thought, Hoppy, when someone asked if he was Tom. 
In my head I said, "nope, cause there are no typos or grammatical errors."

:-D 

I respect Tom to the utmost and only mean this lightheartedly, but that's pretty funny.

Regarding the emersed setup, I think that having established plants from the start and a cycled substrate, would go a long way in preventing ammonia from causing algae when the tank is filled. There are many factors that stack the deck in your favor when doing this.

-Mike B-


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## gforster (Jul 30, 2006)

Hmm, I just did this with my most recent tank. Kind of by accident. I was planning on making my 55g a paludarium, but in the process of setting it up I lost a good amount of HC from another setup. Well, the 55 was a good place to do an emersed setup to grow out the HC. It was been growing pretty strong. I am unsure if I am goint to still do a paludarium or something else, but I filled it up with water in the meantime and all is going well. I can't say that it is 100% algae free, but that wasn't my intent either. I don't believe 100% algae free is always the best thing (I like my ottos to have some food). Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

BTW, I hate Tom Barr.

No, I love Tom Barr.

Actually, I don't really care - since that's not what this topic is about. I do in fact, appreciate everybody's input - both barr and Robert Hudson. If there is one thing I learned in the aquascaping stuff, it is that there are many ways to accomplish the same goal - a beautifully planted tank.


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## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

I have been moving towards starting potted plants emersed before immersing them. It just works better and if the plant vendors do it, that means I should at least try it out. Doing this on a larger scale makes perfect sense to me.

As for Tom, he's very interesting in that he asks people for data to back up what appears to be a purely anectodotal position. Some people who would rather perform character assassination than admit that there is merit in doing more controlled experiments to figure out what is really going on.

Also fueling this is that our own western short-attention-span perspective has us saying "Tom discovered something" when he is the source that we first hear of it. We can be quite sloppy at times, and this can get in the way of advancing the hobby.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

The method of growing the plants emersed and then flooding them probably works to prevent algae take-overs because it insures that there is a well established healthy growth present when the water is added. Algae can get going when plants are few and far between, and especially when the plants have not got themselves rooted yet. Of course, this method requires plants that take well to submersion.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Tom's got everyone's respect I think-- it's just a matter of whether or not they can talk to him without feeling burnt. :heh:

Considering how some plants really hate the switch from emersed to submersed, I can't imagine this being completely flawless . . . but then if you look at ADA's wabi-kusa stuff, you'd see that maybe there's really something too this "just add water" attitude towards it. :heh:


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

What a bizzare thread. I'm not sure I understand the passion behind the statements that have been made here. Look, if something is purported to work, try it. If it works for you, great. I'll just echo Freeman's comments above. There is no "APC way" and about the only way to get banned here is to be flagrantly abusing the site.

One thing that I know for sure though is that there is no method that will ensure an algae-free tank for 100% of the people 100% of the time.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

I think this third page has been a little better actually.

I just feel that there is some animosity from some people towards Tom whereas I tend to take loads of people's understanding or preferred methods and take what I can from all experiences.

It's probably from the way Tom's messages are so 'direct' and can sound aggressive sometimes.

I don't champion his methods, in fact I ignore some parts but use what is applicable to me if I think it is useful.

At the end of the day my current tank is run from a mixture of Tom's Non CO2 suggested substrate mix (albeit with my beloved playsand and not 1-3mm sand/gravel) but then with half EI/PPS Pro/Amano dosing (in other words lean) I think all 3 are similar.

My CO2 setup is as it was from the time I first started pressurised using advice of FishForums.net.

As for the method above it looks interesting but not really for me as previously said I am a little bored of the whole carpeted look and trying something a little different.

Andy


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Nah, direct and aggressive is fine-- for me, it's that he talks like he knows the _art_ when his scapes are mediocre at best. Plants are great though.

I've told that to him to his face too, and he still tries to tell me how I don't know anything about Japanese gardening. He's a funny guy.:heh:


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

guaiac_boy said:


> ...One thing that I know for sure though is that there is no method that will ensure an algae-free tank for 100% of the people 100% of the time.


Along those lines, I will add that there is no one person's way/method/ideology, etc, that will work for everyone all the time. A 'plug and play' recipe does not exist. Have fun with it, and figure out how to tweak things and make them work in your own system.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Bert H said:


> Along those lines, I will add that there is no one person's way/method/ideology, etc, that will work for everyone all the time. A 'plug and play' recipe does not exist. Have fun with it, and figure out how to tweak things and make them work in your own system.


A corollary to that is to make a part of your fun the trying of different or new methods, just to see if one of them works better for you. I find it eventually gets boring to keep the same tank, with the same plants, using the same substrate, same fertilizing, same lights and same aquascape all of the time. For me, what makes it a hobby is the experimenting with new methods and ideas. And, who knows, you may discover the perfect way to an algae free tank.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Words of wisdom by Bert & Hoppy. I started using what is now dubbed "EI" a couple years before it got a name. Worked exceptionally well in some cases, others it failed miserably. Every tank is different, and every tank needs its own regimine. Don't be shy, experiment! I've devastated huge tanks just to find out "what happens if I do this...."


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## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> Nah, direct and aggressive is fine-- for me, it's that he talks like he knows the _art_ when his scapes are mediocre at best. Plants are great though.


I think he represents the horticultural perspective. Some people have fish rooms that look like a science lab while others have fish rooms that look like an art gallery. To each their own.

As for Japanese gardening, visiting several dozen in Japan revealed that I didn't know nearly as much as I thought I did.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

Algae is still a problem?

I actually quit the hobby for a few years when I moved here as the water here has an unbelievable propensity to grow hair and staghorn algae.

Barr, who I've known (through usenet) since he was a teen fixed all that by coercing me to fertilize properly. If that doens't fi xyour algae woes, add floating plants. If that doens't fix it start using Flourish Excel.

These days if a tank slides from neglrec to a green slimey mess I just change half the water, add fast growing stem plants and fertilize. In the dozen or so tanks here (and yeah I fall more into the "lab" fishroom than "work of art") algae is simply a non-issue.

And yes Tom writes like a drunk retard at times. But he's still one of my favorite people on the planet, and with a couple of degrees in this stuff He's working on his PhD now), the best resource I know for the hard science behind the hobby that posesses us.

Tom doesn't post any more because Art makes his life here miserable. He is on other, and his own forums.

Poeple that follow Toms methods and have no luck are usually not doing it right. In many tanks over many years I've never seen them fail.

Sorry for the blatent burst of honesty.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Sometimes good old fashioned patience and persistence may be the best way to achieving an algae free tank. I have 5 tanks set up in my home and I am currently experimenting with all of them with respect to ferts, lighting, etc. One of the 2 ten gallon tanks(not the anti-algae experimental one) had the most stubborn case of dust algae combined with repeated outbreaks of BGA. I was dosing/overdosing excel, doing blackouts regularly, had C02 injection, but nothing seemed to be working. After 4 months of this, I only made 4 changes (1) temporarily(for about a month) increased water changes to 2x week, (2) switched from PPS-Pro to PPS-Classic, (3) put some barley straw in a mesh bag and attached in the area where it would receive maximum light and agitation, (4) changed my DIY c02 brew weekly, and (5) switched to split photoperiod for lighting. Now, the algae has all but disappeared, and the plants are doing quite well. Snails are still a problem, but I plan to put in a talking catfish to limit the population.

I had another 2.5 gallon nano that was over-run with all kinds of algae over a 6 month period. I kept fertilizing with Seachem fertilization schedule for a 2.5 gallon. And the only change(s) I made was (1) put some barley straw in a mesh bag and attached it to the tank's surface and (2) changed the DIY c02 brew weekly, and switched to split photoperiod lighting. Again, the algae has all but disappeared, and plant growth appears uneffected.

In both of the above cases, I resisted the desire to tear the tank(s) down and start all over. I figured that I could use the tanks to try and learn something and I did. The natural maturation of a tank may in of itself lead to a balance that may not be conducive to algae. But then that is not new.

The Tom Barr Algae free start up method looks quite interesting. I have a 5 gallon that I may set up(if I can find the room) just to experiment with the method.

With everything that I have learned from setting up my tanks, I am confident that starting/setting up a new tank now without short term or long term algae issues, would not be a problem.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Sometimes good old fashioned patience and persistence may be the best way to achieving an algae free tank.


I agree with that statement 100%. I've been through my share of algae issues so I speak from experience. The most important thing is to keep trying until you find the formula that works. There are so many variables between setups that one solution does not fit all situtations. When all else fails, consider the needs of the plants. When they're happy, the algae slowly becomes a non-issue.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Sometimes good old fashioned patience and persistence may be the best way to achieving an algae free tank.


See, that is kinda what is ironic about this whole idea.... I have been around the forums, usernet, APD since the early 90s. For over 15 years now its been discussed, and discussed and every time there is a new method for an algae free tank, that method is the one that works. If every method works, why do we keep needing a new one, and why do people still have algae?

First it was low tech, high nutrient substrates, then it was the Sears and Conlin paper, then it was Tom Barrs EI method, then I suppose it was also Edwins Perpetual whatever... now its "grow plants without water"



> Poeple that follow Toms methods and have no luck are usually not doing it right. In many tanks over many years I've never seen them fail.
> 
> Sorry for the blatent burst of honesty


 If you were brutally honest, you would use your name! Art doesn't own this forum any more so you can not blame it on him. *Poeple that follow Toms methods and have no luck are usually not doing it right* If they worked, why does he keep coming up with new ones? There are MANY many people who do NOT use his methods who are very happy and content and are relatively algae free. As algae free as any one else.

If you are a die hard fan of Tom Barr, then more power to you. Thats wonderful. Seeing all that has gone on in the last 15 or 20 years as you have, I look at it differently with less enthusiasim: with a so what, whats the point attitude. I felt the same way about Sears and Conlin. It has nothing to do with personal issues I have with Tom, its more like is it really worth all the fan fare?

Find your balance, find your equalibrium. Find what works for you. If thats following the latest and greatest fad from Tom Barr, then great. Go for it. Be happy. How many people here are still using glass diffusors because he said they work better than reactors? Anybody remember when he made his own reactors for sale? How many people are still trying to "spray" C02 bubbles on your plants because he said that works better? Whatever works for you... until you are ready to try something else.



> He is on other, and his own forums.


Yeah, and after what four or five years, his WEB site still has very little traffic. Why do you think that is? He talks about it openly on his forum, and he can't figure out why. He gets little spikes whenever he makes an announcment like this, and then after a few months the interest fades away again.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

I've had success with EI. I've had not so much success with EI. Why? Probably because I'm lazy. Why does he come up with new stuff? Maybe because EI isn't the only answer. Maybe there is something better out there. How do you find it if you don't keep looking?

Tom Barr is gruff, occasionally childish, and definitely could use something like a spell checker. At the same time, he's definitely got a lot to say, some of which is worth reading.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Wow, some of the parts of this thread remind me of the Crazy World of Arthur Brown.


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## FacePlanted (Aug 13, 2007)

I certainly dont think this is the "New Thing" for having a successful planted tank that should replace other methods/techniques because they are inferior, or this one so much superior. Its not here because other methods dont work, or that this one is flawless. Its a technique to be added to an aquarist's arsenal for setting up a tank, growing plants, and combating algae. 

Different techniques appeal to different people for different reasons. An emersed foreground might be a logical extension for a beginner who has experience with gardening, or something similar. They might know how to grow terrestrial plants, or potted plants, or even hydroponic plants, but not really have a clue on how to maintain an algae-free (more or less) planted tank. This might be the method for them. Used along with a combination of other methods/techniques (EI, PPS, whatever), I think would give someone a good start. Higher odds of avoiding some of the hassles that a new tank poses. 

If something like this seems beyond someone's abilities, or bound not to work for them, there's no need to put themselves through the trouble. But that doesn't mean it's a worhtless technique. It's certainly not necessary, but sure is good to know. Some day it might be appropriate to use. Just because someone says that it is a great thing to do, doesnt mean that you have to do it. But it's still a good idea that people might not have thought of trying. 

Blah, blah blah, I'm starting to ramble. :blah: :tape2: 
 

-Mike B-


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

It is funny how a post about a different way to grow algae-free plants could become a discussion of the merits of Tom Barr's advice and his role in our hobby.

Clearly, Tom has played a major role in helping to advance this hobby and has directly or indirectly helped a lot of us to be more successful.

If nothing else, he has brought to us concepts that were buried in scientific journals and from the experiences of himself and others.

And, I think his web site is continuing to grow and is eclipsing his main competitor (who I also support) by a lot, if that means anything.

We need more contributors like Tom Barr.

Bill


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

aquabillpers said:


> It is funny how a post about a different way to grow algae-free plants could become a discussion of the merits of Tom Barr's advice and his role in our hobby...
> 
> Bill


Bill is right here folks. Let's keep this on topic.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Personally I think the more options people have to an algae free tank the better. So if this option is viable just add it to the list. I mean people have different lifestyles and many don't have time to do the water changes and other things that are required at startup especially with certain substrates, etc to have an algae free tank. So this startup method might be better for them. I think many planted-tank aquarists know how to have an algae free tank, but simply lack the time to implement it.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

There's more than one way to skin a cat or have an algae free tank, as Tom points out. He just likes trying new things in hopes some of them are usefull.

Richard Sexton


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## Haeun (Oct 19, 2006)

I set up my own emersed growth tank and sadly, there is algae. I've dosed a little excel and ADA step 2, but I guess the light was too strong. I had a 150w MH HQI over a ADA mini-m. Actinic bulb (the light was supposed to be for my reef).

So I am going to say it's not absolutely an anti-algae setup, though probably easier to not get algae than with a submersed planted tank. Still a fun method to do. No water mess or having to deal with water filtration.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

if you make sure the water line is where the soil starts and not above the soil where the plants grow you will not get algae. all you have to make sure in an emmersed tank is that the soil is damp and the plants will do fine with avoiding algae, if the water line is where the plants grow you will get alage


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

Hello, I started an emmersed HC carpet with power sand and ADA aquasoil as the substrate. With only TWO pots of HC IT has been set up for about two weeks and It has already tripled its mass. This is a 25 gallon tall aquarium. Every couple of days i take the glass lid off and blow into it to add CO2.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

That is good news! Sometimes it is hard to duplicate other folk's good results, so when more than one person can get those results it does tend to confirm that it is a good method. It will be interesting to see how the HC reacts when you submerse it by adding water to the tank.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I think this is a great way to grow HC fast. What I am interested in hearing is after you fill the tank up with water, how long it takes for you to get algae! A week? Two weeks? A month? I am willing to bet it is no different than starting a new tank... other than the fact you are starting with a carpet of HC. You do not need a aquarium to grow HC like this. Use plastic trays like Hoppy did. How does this prevent algae? As soon as you add water, its starting a new aquarium.



> There's more than one way to skin a cat or have an algae free tank, as Tom points out. He just likes trying new things in hopes some of them are usefull.


It never seems that much of a passive attitude to me. Its always a big production. I understand that for many people, they always have this yearning to try something new, while to others it seems a trivial pursuit. For people new to the hobby who can become easily discouraged any way, I don't think this approach does them any service even if it does work.



> And, I think his web site is continuing to grow and is eclipsing his main competitor (who I also support) by a lot, if that means anything.


Tom has a competitor? A competitor in what? I was looking at his site traffic and comparing it to this forum. Look at his traffic stats, his membership. Its not much better than APD.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

lol I am anxious to see what happens too, I think toms claim is that along with creating a carpet you also start a beneficial bacteria colony in the substrate thus reducing/eliminating the amount of time a tank usually takes to cycle (the period of a new tank in which algae grows) I took this quote from the planted tank form In which Tom Barr says: "Bacteria will cycle after about 3 weeks or so, about the time frame the rug grows in using the ADA AS. So the NH4 is now been converted to NO3 and has plenty of bacteria to keep algae low" I have two submerged algae free HC carpets in shrimp tanks that are doing great, I think the secret to Hc is once you submerge it you need to have a cycled filter and dose adequate CO2 and liquid fertilization (micro and macro) from the very start to avoid an imbalance of nutrients causing an algae bloom. However i cannot prove this until the day comes to add water : )


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Robert Hudson said:


> . . . Tom has a competitor? A competitor in what? I was looking at his site traffic and comparing it to this forum. Look at his traffic stats, his membership. Its not much better than APD.


I was thinking about APD. It is moribund, with few daily posts and fewer still about plants. Tom Barr's site gets more postings.

Does your "traffic" count reflect the fact that APD emails its postings every day to all of its subscribers, except for those who opt out? I'd think it would very hard to make meaningful comparisons of APD's traffic counts to boards like Barr's or this one (or to the old Aquabotanic board, may it RIP.)

Bill


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