# rotundifolia vs indica



## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

I've have both of these plants in the pass before. I was just wondering what is the difference between them? They both look similar.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

They only look similar emersed. The real _Rotala indica_ is most likely what is passed around as 'Ammania sp. Bonsai'. What the vast majority of people actually have is _rotundifolia_.

The names _Rotala rotundifoli_a and _Rotala indica_ are both commonly used for _R. rotundifolia_ and treated as though they are interchangeable when they aren't.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

so what is the difference between rotundifolia 'colorata' and rotundifolia


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

The 'colorata' variety can get a deep red color. The regular rotundifolia gets a pink color.

This gentleman here is selling the 'colorata' variety: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?liveplantsr&1150121440

Disclaimer: I am not endorsing this selling, only showing a picture of the plant in question.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Alright so now what is the difference between sp. pink and rotundifolia? Wow, leds to more questions


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

A lot of sources consider them to be different names for the same species.

Oriental Aquarium considers them to be two different species. Here's a scan of the two different species as pictured in the latest Oriental Aquarium catalog:

_Rotala Indica:_









_Rotala Rotundifolia:_


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> A lot of sources consider them to be different names for the same species.


No, they don't. The confusing wording on the Tropica site aside, they are *not* considered the same plant.

Oriental Aquariums isn't exactly the best place to get accurate names, and that's a good example (Dennerle is _bad_). Those two pictures are both of _rotundifolia_.

I believe that Dennis said that Claus Christensen from Tropica (for the most part very accurate) said that 'Ammania sp. Bonsai' is the real _R. indica_.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plants-new-to-hobby/12298-ammania-sp-bonsai.html

Edit: I meant to say that Tropica as a company is very accurate about scientific names. Claus is a recognized authority on the subject and a good guy to boot.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Cavan Allen said:


> No, they don't. The confusing wording on the Tropica site aside, they are *not* considered the same plant.


???

What exactly are you arguing? The point of the pictures is that Oriental Aquarium considers them to be two different plants. I've seen many vendors and sites list the plant like "rotala rotundifolia (aka rotala indica)" or "rotala indica rotundifolia" or something similar.



Cavan Allen said:


> Oriental Aquariums isn't exactly the best place to get accurate names, and that's a good example (Dennerle is _bad_). Those two pictures are both of _rotundifolia_.


They look like two different plants to me. What makes Claus Christensen right and Oriental Aquarium wrong? Is either an authority on species names?

If you read the descriptions, Oriental Aquarium says that the main difference of the two species are the flower arrangement.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> What exactly are you arguing?


That most (reliable anyway) sources don't consider them to be the same species.



> They look like two different plants to me.


They aren't. One may be a color variety at most, but I can assure you that any differences in leaf shape can be accounted for by environmental conditions.



> What makes Claus Christensen right and Oriental Aquarium wrong? Is either an authority on species names?


Claus is, and by and large, his IDs agree with Kasselmann and current consensus on most names. That's about the best I can explain that. I'll add that I do quite a bit of digging through this sort of thing and have arrived at the conclusion that Tropica is more trustworthy when it comes to the subject.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Plants can vary from region to region. Hence all the different verticillate Ludwigias that at heart are all Ludwigia inclinata varieties. I believe it is the same with Rotala rotundifolia.

There is the readily available form such as you would find at a store in the USA.
There is the green form
There is the 'pink' form that has slightly broader leaves and a rosier coloration to it:








and lastly the 'colorata' or 'red' variety:
http://www.gwapa.org/membergallery/albums/Aaron-Talbot-s-Gallery/Rindica.jpg

Rotala indica is most widely accepted to be the actual name of Ammania sp. 'bonsai' as Cavan pointed out. It makes sense considering one of the common names for Rotala indica is round leaf rotala.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Ahhhh.... now I understand, thanks for the clear up.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Sure thing. I'm likely not 100% accurate, but I do try to accurately ID plants before trading or selling them. I feel it can only help the hobby.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

You have helped my a lot with my Rotala collection thanks Aaron. Thanks Cavan for the pass ids.


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## Vik Lo (Aug 25, 2006)

Hi, I found this thread on Google (well I did, then I lost it, then I had to find it again) and had to register to post my comment.

I don't know who this Cavan guy is, but he's way wrong here.

Yes, r. rotundifolia and r. indica are two different plants. Main difference is flowers but they do have some different tendancies in underwater forms. The pics from Oriental Aquarium are dead on. They sell both species separately and I take great offense at the suggestion they sell the same plant as two different species. In Singapore this is a very great insult and a company like Oriental Aquarium would never even think of doing something like this. You should watch what you say Cavan, especially when you have no evidence to back it up.

An other problem is this guy and it looks like other guys are spreading a suggestion that ammania sp. bonsai is actually r. indica. IT ISN'T.

Let me repeat that a few times....

R. INDICA AND AMMANIA SP. BONSAI ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLANTS!!!!
R. INDICA AND AMMANIA SP. BONSAI ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLANTS!!!!
R. INDICA AND AMMANIA SP. BONSAI ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLANTS!!!!
R. INDICA AND AMMANIA SP. BONSAI ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLANTS!!!!

How do I know? Well for starters I am friends with the man who developed the bonsai hybrid!

So to set the record straight...

Rotala Rotundifolia
Rotala Indica
Ammania sp. Bonsai

ALL OF THESE ARE THREE DIFFERENT PLANTS!

Oriental Aquarium breeds and sells stocks of all three species. Amano himself is a big user of Oriental Aquarium plants. Oriental Aquarium does not lie, deceive, or misrepresent what they sell! PERIOD!


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

You don't have to seem so angry......


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

turtlehead said:


> You don't have to seem so angry......


Agreed.

We're open for friendly debate here at APC. Would you mind providing us with photographs that better show the subtle differences you mentioned?

Also, while we're on the subject of correcting one another, species names are not capitalized and any nomenclature referring to a hybrid species should be surrounded by single quotes. 


> So to set the record straight...
> 
> Rotala Rotundifolia
> Rotala Indica
> Ammania sp. Bonsai


So a straighter record would read:

Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala indica
Ammania sp. 'bonsai'


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## Vik Lo (Aug 25, 2006)

First of all English is not my first language and going after me about capital letters seems a little like you are changing the subject, trying to turn around and attack me over something petty, no?

Salt already posted some pictures, I don't have other ones handy at the moment, but I am involved enough with the business to know that Oriental Aquarium is not misrepresenting their products.

I am not so much angry, but some of you people seem to me to be pretending to be authorities on these plant species, when I know firsthand the people who breed and trade them, as well as the man who originally bred ammania bonsai. By spreading these bad infos, you insult the breeders and biggest supporters of aquatic plant hobby, the growers themselves.

I'm done with my say, you can go and attack my spelling or my "anger" but it does not change the fact that these are three different plant species named and sold correct by Oriental Aquarium, you can go and spread whatever you want, but you should know that you are wrong to do so.

You want more info or proof, you can use google, the info is out there, if you don't know how to search with google then you surely don't know enough on how to identify correct plants.


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## VITARTE (Feb 20, 2005)

Take it easy there Vik Lo, this is just some plants you guys are talking about. No reason to get all touchy about it.
Compose yourself man.
Peace.
Rafo


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Vik, as you have said, you are a new member here and no one knew about your background, you don't have to go around correcting people. I know it may be frustrating to you that you did know about these plants, but it's not that we are worried about, it's your tone...


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

I am not saying either side is right I would just like to know if Rotala rotundifolia and Rotala indica or two different species, if so how do you identify the two. 

I see a difference in the pictures from Oriental aquarium, but the rotala rotundifolia I have grows differently depending on the care its given. I am not trying to further provoke you Vik Lo I am just trying to learn. My plant was sold to me as potted plant. Not as single empyee could name the plant. I of course knew it was rotundifolia but I couldnt believe no one there could confirm this. I guess I am trying to say that non of us want to pick a fight with you, the growers or any distributors. We just want to be informed. If the knowledge is not available to us then our own research leads to our own conclusions. I have used google search and I believe every member of this community can since they managed to find this site.(and remember how to get back). Can you give us a hint to where this info is stored. The internet is a big place. I searched "rotala rotundifolia vs. indica"= 0 hits, "rotala rotundifolia vs. rotala indica" = 0, "rotala rotundifolia versus rotala indica"= 0 hits,Comparison of "Rotala Rotundifolia" and "Rotala indica"= 15 hits. None of which show a comparison of the two plants. Maybe I am looking for the wrong thing. 

I would like a side by side comparison of the two plants grown in the same tank recieving the same lighting. I know this is a lot to ask and I really dont expect anyone to show me this but I believe it would do a lot to disprove any accusations about the authenticity of the plant identification of the Oriental Aquarium. 

I dont believe the method of species naming is limited to english speaking people. Since a lot of the hits I got where in languages I do not understand. 


Cavan Allen is a member of our online community that lends his knowledge to help others identify their plants. I am sure he didn't mean to offend you or Oriental Aquarium.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Please undertand that you personally attacked Cavan, who happens to be a good friend of mine and many others on this board. Whether or not he was correct was not the issue. The issue was and still is your poor attitude.

As I've said before. We welcome friendly debate and I stress the word friendly. It seems a bit hypocritical of you to come here and call me petty for defending my good friend whom you attacked without even getting to know or spurring any sort of reasonable debate. As for my correcting you, it had nothing to do with English. The names used to identify plants *universally* are Latin names.

No one on here ever said that Rotala indica and Ammania sp. 'bonsai' are the same plant. True, they did say that it was highly likely, but certainly not definite.

Please kindly refrain from jumping to any more conclusions about the character of people you do not know.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> Hi, I found this thread on Google (well I did, then I lost it, then I had to find it again) and had to register to post my comment.
> 
> I don't know who this Cavan guy is, but he's way wrong here.


Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? Do you need a vacation?

Nobody here said for certain that _Ammania sp._ 'Bonsai' and _Rotala indica_ are the same thing. But I believe that Claus Christensen did, and I trust him on these sorts of things.

You don't know me and you don't know what I do or don't know. But if you ask around, I think you'll find that most people would say that I know my plants pretty darn well, thank you.



> So to set the record straight...
> 
> Rotala Rotundifolia
> Rotala Indica
> Ammania sp. Bonsai


 One thing I am 100% sure of, Mr. Expert, is that species names are *NEVER* capitalized. Ever. But I guess you already knew that, didn't you? 



> Yes, r. rotundifolia and r. indica are two different plants. Main difference is flowers but they do have some different tendancies in underwater forms. The pics from Oriental Aquarium are dead on. They sell both species separately and I take great offense at the suggestion they sell the same plant as two different species. In Singapore this is a very great insult and a company like Oriental Aquarium would never even think of doing something like this. You should watch what you say Cavan, especially when you have no evidence to back it up.


Some of the errors in the AO catalogue:

Rotala 'Najean' (Nanjenshan)
Microsorium pteropus (should be Microsorum)
"Limnophila hippuroides" - native to North America (that's like saying there's an _Anubias_ native to France)

I'm not trying to insult anyone. But those things are definitely not correct.

* There's a BIG, BIG, BIG difference between saying they're wrong and lying to/deceiving people. *

Have a nice day.


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

Just a note of caution to anyone who uses Google as their main research source lol.... :

Probably 99.9% of what is posted up on the internet is not edited and checked for accuracy. The result? A lot of misinformation. For example, if you write a paper for a college or university, whoever is reading your paper will laugh at you for citing a web page as a source and cheerfully give you a zero.

Cavan Allen is not pretending to be an authority, even though I trust him in matters of plant identification. He offered the thoughts of Claus Christensen to back up his thought on the matter.

Isn't there a Vik Loza on this forum..? If you are that same person, rip on someone on your original account, don't create a new one to do it. That just shows that you actually were angry and wanted to create an alter ego to do it safely. If the two aren't the same, then my apologies to the Vik Loza, if there is a member named that.

In any case, what type of environmental conditions would cause a leaf to become more broad Cavan? When my bacopa gets close to the light the leaves get huge, but is light the only factor? And also, just for clarification, there is R. rotundifolia and Ammania sp. 'bonsai', right? In other words, there is really no such thing as R. indica since it is actually Ammania sp. 'bonsai'?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

erijnal said:


> In any case, what type of environmental conditions would cause a leaf to become more broad Cavan? When my bacopa gets close to the light the leaves get huge, but is light the only factor? And also, just for clarification, there is R. rotundifolia and Ammania sp. 'bonsai', right? In other words, there is really no such thing as R. indica since it is actually Ammania sp. 'bonsai'?


Our hypothesis we'll call it, is that Ammania sp. 'bonsai' is Rotala indica and that there is no Ammania sp. 'bonsai'.

That's not a definite for sure. I'm growing whatever it truly is in my pond emersed this summer in hopes of catching some pictures of flowers. I can tell you that in the emersed form it has pairs of two alternating opposite leaves just like any other Rotala does. Flower buds are starting to form.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Plant names has always been a big thing with Cavan, right Cavan? For years! If you look in the Kasselmann book, she too says indica and rotundifollia are two different species, but she does not describe indica or picture it, or tell you anything about the plant.

Cavan, you always speak about these things with great confidence and you make it sound like you are expressing a fact, not an opinion. I have often wondered how you can be so sure of these things since you are just an average Joe like the rest of us, but I pretty much learned a while back to pretty much trust what you and others say about this sort of thing to a point unless the arguement over a plant name is vague, confusing, and accomplishes nothing. For example, the arguement between L. aromatica, L. hippuroides, gratiola and P. stellata. I remember when Charlie used to sell gratiola on Aquabid and he would list the three or four different possible names. All it did was confuse people.

So, my point is I try to use the names of the plants that are by general consensus here accurate, but if I am off I do not worry about it. I can actually see a little where Vics indignation comes from, and I understand how devoted to the science Cavan is and why he wants to be as accurate as possible. OA does not always use the correct names or the most current names and I do not think people in Singapore would take it as such an insult. Give me a break

But where do the names Tonina belem, or inclinata var cuba and all these other names come from? Isn't it Rayon vert in Japan? Are they not making up these names themselves for plants they found in a specific region? By what process do names become official? I was in Belem, I found an unidentified Tonina variant, so I will call it Tonina belem! Oriental Aquarium has the same plant and calls it Tonina sp. Which is right?

What I thought might be interesting in this conversation is for the last several years Cavan has been beating into my head that rotundifolia is the correct name to use, not indica, and then for the last several months or perhaps the past year I have been reading on the plant swap boards and on aquabid some collectors offering the "real thing" indica, "its not rotundifolia, but the real indica" I wondered if these people were for real and what this "real" indica looked like.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> Plant names has always been a big thing with Cavan, right Cavan? For years!


Is there something wrong with that? I don't think so. In fact, I think that someone has to do it, and it might as well be me.



> Cavan, you always speak about these things with great confidence and you make it sound like you are expressing a fact, not an opinion. I have often wondered how you can be so sure of these things since you are just an average Joe like the rest of us,


I do have great confidence. I may be an "average Joe", but I put a lot of time into it and probably know a tad more about the subject than the average "average Joe". But I've never tried to pass myself off as someone who knows it all or is the final authority on what is what.



> OA does not always use the correct names or the most current names and I do not think people in Singapore would take it as such an insult. Give me a break


That's what I thought. His reaction was a bit extreme.



> But where do the names Tonina belem, or inclinata var cuba and all these other names come from?


They're just sort of a hybrid between a scientific and common name. Whoever introduces it into the hobby just makes it up I guess.



> What I thought might be interesting in this conversation is for the last several years Cavan has been beating into my head that rotundifolia is the correct name to use, not indica,


I'm not beating anything into anyone's head. I do firmly believe, though, that knowing the correct names for things is good for the hobby and with a minimum of effort, we can avoid a lot of needless confusion.


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

This thread brings up the topic of plant classification.
Questions that I have on this topic:
Who does the formal plant classification?
Is this something that is under control of the International Botanical Congress (IBC)?
How distinct does a plant need to be in order to be formally considered a hybrid?


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