# Mineralization and other questions



## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

So I'm a completely new hobbyist, new to aquariums as well as NPTs, but I dive in deep and hard when I pick up hobbies, generally over do things and learn from my mistakes. A local hobbyist looked at me and said "Ahh multiple tank syndrome, have fun!" So I've kind of have a lot going on and therefore a lot of questions for you more advanced folks. My plan is to have an idea of what I need to do before the weekend so I can spend my weekend getting TANKED HA HA ha ha... >_> any way

So my setup is currently:

Living room, 3x 55g 100w of T5 per tank, only one is currently running, its substrate layer is way too thick and I'm going to have to scrub it. Luckily my goal is to have 2 of the tanks running and one empty so I'll be breaking one down while setting the other up.

Bedroom, 2x 20g, Guppies in one RCS in the other, substrate layer is at 3" in each and definitely too deep and dealing with hydrogen sulfide bubbles in both, considering breaking them down one at a time and doing a bit of very slow tank juggling. I'd really like to avoid breaking down the RCS tank if possible so input and suggestions here are very welcome. Guppies have been dying also, they are all now in the 20g and have been treated with fungus guard by tetra, pretty sure its a bacteria infection, could be the hydrogen sulfide though? Dunno but I'm losing some of my prettiest fish and I'm very sad, plan is to tank hard this weekend and sort all the tanks out.
4x 10g, Guppy fry in one Fire RCS in the other and 2 barebottom QTs, 2.5" substrate layer in the 10gs also hydrogen sulfide problems.

Backyard 2x40bg heavily planted that I got from a local hobbyist, everything heaters filters pumps racks except no lights for 100$, they are going to be my plant propagation tanks and eventually will have wild neocardina shrimp from a local farm grooming them. These need no work other than trimming, which I don't have much experience with but that's what learning is for!

The substrate in my tanks that I setup up (not the backyard ones) is a mix of MGOC 75% and CaribSea Eco Complete 25% capped with pool filter sand that was washed and sorted for size, except for the Fire Red Cherry Shrimp tank which is capped with Ecocomplete.


----------



## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

My plan for the weekend as I see if now in my head is to pull the plants from the 55g toss them in a spare empty 20g, relay substrate in the two 55g and replant. I'm considering doing the same for my 20g guppy hospital. Put all the water in a spare 20g then the guppies and plants in it rebuild the substrate layer replant refill. I want to avoid messing with the tanks in my room if I can.

Any one know the best way to deal with hydrogen sulfide build up and anaerobic conditions? Can I really just poke the substrate until the problem resolves itself? I doubt my substrate layers in these tanks have enough inorganic material and are too thick to properly be exchanging with the water so oxygen is getting down there. Should I really try to redo these tanks with sick guppies, berried and brand new fry in another tank?


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Hydrogen sulfide is very toxic. Your best bet is to redo the tanks, especially since you are losing fish that you really want to keep.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Ditto:
Move fish and filter to a new tank. 

Tear down the affected tanks and do not reuse that substrate right away. Perhaps mineralizing it again would greatly reduce the bacteria that make hydrogen sulfide. 

Rebuild with a lot less substrate. Perhaps just an inch or so of active soil and a similar amount of cap. 

Thriving plants ought to be able to add oxygen to the substrate, but if the soil goes too long without oxygen (or greatly reduced water circulation) and those organisms get going it is much safer to get the livestock out of that situation. You are lucky to have several tanks to work with.


----------



## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

I was hoping one of the two of you would pop in and I got both! 

Seems like I've got a lot of work ahead of me this weekend then. I really was hoping to avoid redoing all the tanks especially since both of my berried shrimp in the Cherry tank just gave birth literally over the last two days. Any advice on moving shrimp that young? Seems in advisable but then again so does letting them sit in toxic water. I think I'll just have to break it down very very slowly and try to catch them all in the move of the water.

I think my problem was also I didnt mix enough inorganic material (just like some extra gravel/sand) so it compacted more easily. But perhaps I'm mistaken? 

I've got some extra soil mineralizing now and can play tank juggler and move all the animals into bare bottom setups while I mineralize, luckily all the filters are cycled and I should be fine if i just use the same water right?

Other questions. If I'm using Ecocomplete is it necessary to include clay in my soil mix? The top soil I'm mineralizing now has a noticable clay content, much of it has chucks of soil that felt more like clay than anything else, will that stay as part of the soil as I mineralize or will it be lost to the water rinses?

How much natural sunlight should a Low, Medium, High tech tank each get if they are getting no other light? 

How much should I reduce my light usage to if I'm dealing with algae?

Edit: I'm trying to go as quick as possible with this soil mineralization but I unfortunately couldnt get the soil until yesterday.I'm thinking about doing a 3 rinse dry cycles after the initial rinse. I've added AACT to the initial rinse which should super charge the soil to mineralize faster. I'm trying to figure out how to speed up the process. I live in Florida so sunshine and heat abound. Should I spread the soil to under a half inch for the drying step? Or less?


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Spreading the soil thin will help. Stirring it can help. 
You might be able to make it go this fast:
Spread it out in the morning. Stir at noon. Collect it at night, and soak it. Repeat. Note that this does not give any time for the bacteria to grow, but adding the compost should help with this. 

If you have not tested the compost, I would be cautious: It can have too much of the various materials that add ammonia to the water, and this would be a disaster, if you have to be able to restock the tank right away. Do you have some ready right now? Test it: Put some in a jar with perhaps some sand in the same ratio you would have in the aquarium. Test the water daily through the weekend for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Then decide if you want to use it in the aquariums. 

To catch baby shrimp use air tubing and siphon them into a bucket. Won't hurt them to go for a ride. 

When you move the fish or shrimp to a new tank keep the filter with the livestock, that is where the most nitrifying bacteria live. Very little bacteria live in the water, no point in saving the water. Just make sure the new water matches the old for GH, TDS, KH, pH. Share the plants among the tanks. For the shrimp, the plants provide a safe haven, shade, and some food (in the microorganisms that live on the leaf surfaces). The plants will also be part of the biofilter, removing ammonia etc. for fish and shrimp.
You could also add more nitrifying bacteria to each temporary set up. Products that contain Nitrospira species of bacteria have the right bacteria. Use some in each tank, then keep the rest in the fridge and use it when you move the critters back to the renewed set ups.


----------



## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

Diana K said:


> Spreading the soil thin will help. Stirring it can help.
> You might be able to make it go this fast:
> Spread it out in the morning. Stir at noon. Collect it at night, and soak it. Repeat. Note that this does not give any time for the bacteria to grow, but adding the compost should help with this.
> 
> If you have not tested the compost, I would be cautious: It can have too much of the various materials that add ammonia to the water, and this would be a disaster, if you have to be able to restock the tank right away. Do you have some ready right now? Test it: Put some in a jar with perhaps some sand in the same ratio you would have in the aquarium. Test the water daily through the weekend for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Then decide if you want to use it in the aquariums.


Diana thanks for the advice! After rereading Aaron's guide and what you said above I've been brainstorming what is going on with the mineralization process and how it relates to an Actively Aerated Compost Tea. And I'd like to hear your and others' thoughts on this topic.

I believe that ultimately the same process is being used in a different way to create similar outcomes but for different reasons. AACT actually is doing the same job as the mineralization process used by aquatic gardeners just at a quicker rate because the environment is closer to optimal in AACT.

Too long; didn't read version of what is below: ACCT and Mineralization both provide a mix of soil microbes oxygen and water. ACCT, I believe, creates a more ideal environment for processing our soil and thus completes quicker, though is much much more messy. The outcomes are the same, grainy textured soil with almost no smell.

The goal of mineralization is to break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available forms of nutrients that the plants can more readily use and that algae can't. To do so we provide an ideal environment for aerobic microorganisms to thrive thus quickening the natural breakdown of these materials. The process wets dries and does not control the temperature of the environment this slows the bacteria from breaking down the organic matter as quickly, this is why depending on the environment some soil may mineralize faster than other times given that all ingredients are the same.

The goal of an AACT is to grow beneficial aerobic microorganisms to inoculate terrestrial soil with for terrestrial plants, so that at the out start the plant has a strong and thriving microorganism community providing it with essential nutrients the plant wants being readily available in a bio-available form without out burning the plant with "hot" soil, rather than letting this community slowly develop over time and possibility out of balance or subpar/not ideal. The process here is done completely in water that can be temperature controlled and can have a strongly increased amount of oxygen available to the microbes. Here the environment mimicked is as close to ideal as we can get it, a constant source of oxygen, water, and organic material with a controlled temperature will greatly shorten the time it takes these organisms to break down our organic matter.

Both come out with the same result. Aaron Talbot describes it in his guide "When the soil is near fully mineralized it will have a very grainy texture. Another way to tell that the soil is ready is by smell. There will be virtually no smell coming from the soil once it is mineralized." The soil result of both mineralization and AACT has the exact consistency described. I'll post pictures shortly showing the result of the mixture at the bottom of my AACT brewer.

So what did I wind up doing today...

I had my AACT brewer running for charging some soil in my outdoor garden that had gone anaerobic from a lack of turning and therefore aeration. The brewer had been running for over 5 days because I wasn't sure if I wanted to use it in my aquariums still or not. I also still wasn't sure what to do with my current tanks so the brewer had to keep running or lose a very nicely maturing tea; I kept it alive by adding worm castings, molasses, compost and fresh MGOC soil every 36-48 hours.

So I decided to take advantage of the AACT that was already brewed up, today I took the soil I had already soaking in a spare 20g for mineralization brought it inside added the rest of the soil I had planned to mineralize and a bit of treated warm tap water to bring the temp up. Then poured the tea in as well and tossed the aerator in with a 30-60g Tetra heater. It's in my workshop with a tarp covering the top so the mess is confined. Hopefully this will mineralize before the end of Sunday night or early Monday morning.

Today I broke down my Guppy 20g tank into two 10g tanks with males and females separated, broke down the guppy fry tank too they went into another 10g, I broke down my Fire RCS tank as well and rebuilt it in the same hour using the soil in the bottom of the AACT brewer. The anaerobic soil from those tanks is drying outside. Once the current AACT/Mineralization occurs to the current batch of soil the "tea" from it will be drained into another spare 20g tank and the anaerobic soil from the old tanks will be brewed and properly mineralized then used or dried and saved.

Really hoping this all works out, I'm on a roll and think I might go after 55g tank tonight and break it down as well, get the plants moved over to other tanks and drain and toss the soil outside.

And thanks again Diana for the advice on moving the shrimp and the good reminders about where our nitrifying bacteria live, each tank move went perfect, moved water filter and animals into 1' sand bottom tanks for right now.

Edit for clarity grammar add pictures and additional thanks.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Please let us know how this works out.


----------



## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

At 11am, 24 Hours since the start of the soil brew and the mineralization looked great, pics below, but thought it could use a bit extra time. So I did other stuff came home around 8 and it looked much better, darker, more uniform grainy texture, though there is still a decent amount of woody material peat bits and wood chips with the occasional small rock, but for the most part it looks ready. I'm going to add a bit more molasses before bed and use it in the morning to replant all the tanks in my room, the 55g tanks will have to wait for the old anaerobic soil to mineralize. 

So far I feel this is working great. I'm annoyed I added MGOC to the brew, the wood chips it has is so plentiful it has been a pain weeding them out. I definitely think the top soil I had could have mineralized in 24 hours at 77F with MASSIVE AERATION. Honestly the top soil I got for 1.70$ was far more rich looking and developed than the MGOC. I now understand why the forums seem to agree that "MGOC works okay if you have to use it, but you can do better." I'm planning on using the rest in my terrestrial garden. 

Tomorrow I'll pot and plant the tanks and tanks pictures as I go and post here at the end of the day.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I think the goals of mineralized soils vs potting soils are different. The starting materials sure are! 
Most potting soils are very high in organic matter (sawdust, manure, peat etc). The mineralized soil concept starts with as low an organic matter content as possible, such as products sold as 'topsoil' (a very misleading term) or garden dirt from an area without a lot of plant material.


----------

