# Re-visiting the substrate...



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

This subject has been discussed in the past, but I thought I'd bring it up again here. 

1. Regarding the substrate, it is generally accepted that the ADA substrates are probably the best out there. I have no experience with them, and doubt that I will have enough money to ever fully outfit either of my 50's with the substrate and ADA system, so I will ask, do these substrates have a finite, useable lifetime? Does one come to a point where they will eventually just become like other inert-type substrates and EI/PPS type water column dosing will be a necessity?

2. Regarding other substrates, like Flourite, or Eco-complete, or turface, etc...What's the longest running tank with the same substrate out there? Referring to my own tanks, my 50's have a mixture of Flourite and Eco, and one has been up and running for approximately 8 years, the other for about 7 years. I used to do some thorough vaccumming whenever I did major uprooting/re-scaping, but for the last 3-4 years now, I quit doing that. I figured all the good de-composing organics in the substrates are beneficial. Major uprooting/re-scaping will definitely kick up a bunch of floating debris, which I do try to lightly vacuum up as it sits on the surface, and the filter will get a cleaning shortly after major tank work.

Anyways, looking forward to hearing personal comments, experiences, etc.


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## old 97 (Jul 25, 2011)

niko said:


> No substrate is better or worse after several months in the tank. ,,,,
> 
> ,,,,,,, but because natural processes take place in the tank after several months.
> 
> --


Are these 'natural processes' aided by a substances derived CEC ?

Do we not need to exchange cations (the positively charged ions) NH4+, K+, Ca2+, Fe2+ ?
,,,and to a less extent -the negatively charged anion ions NO3-, PO42-, SO42- ?

I had raelly hoped that my clay substrate was slightly more magical than clown puke.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

Well niko, I am pretty interested in the processes that take place in a planted aquarium. When you speak of inert substrate, I take it to mean a substrate without any nutrients in it? As in aquasoil is packed with nitrogen and phosphate and such, whereas laterite is just clay? I am interested to know your feelings on cec. When you say that one substrate is just as good as another after a length of time, it seems to me that laterite, eco complete, zeolite, or something that could lock these nutrients away in the substrate would be better than say some chain store painted gravel, due to the holding the nutrients down where they be utilized by plant roots, rather than allowing them to be dispersed into the water column where they can be utilized by algae. Am I mistaken?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> I have a tank with a 10 year old Fluorite. This material is as useless as all others sold in the US with a label "planted tank substrate". My tank receives 0 fertilization and yet I have had rooted plants shoot runners like there is no tomorrow. This is NOT because Fluorite is magic but because natural processes take place in the tank after several months.


 Would you please expound on this, Niko. You do not fertilize, I assume you do not gravel vac either. So your source of nutrients comes from the natural degradations of food, waste, etc? Do you do water changes? In my tanks, if I do not fertilize I eventually see plants showing problems with growth, stunting, etc.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

If I may hazard a guess, in an inert substrate, decomposed organics eventually produce humus (a.k.a. humic substances, dissolved organic carbon) which does have a high CEC. So over time CEC increases even when you strart with plain gravel as long as it is not kept too clean.

This process is deliberately accelerated in the preparation of mineralized top soil substrate.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

old 97 said:


> Are these 'natural processes' aided by a substances derived CEC ?
> 
> Do we not need to exchange cations (the positively charged ions) NH4+, K+, Ca2+, Fe2+ ?
> ,,,and to a less extent -the negatively charged anion ions NO3-, PO42-, SO42- ?
> ...


Niki says nothing here.

--Nikolay


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I am curious. Does any one have an opinion or thoughts about water flow in the substrate? I usually add pea gravel to my substrates simply because I assume that it increases the water flow.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

D9Vin said:


> Well niko, I am pretty interested in the processes that take place in a planted aquarium. When you speak of inert substrate, I take it to mean a substrate without any nutrients in it? As in aquasoil is packed with nitrogen and phosphate and such, whereas flourite is just clay? I am interested to know your feelings on cec. When you say that one substrate is just as good as another after a length of time, it seems to me that fluorite, eco complete, zeolite, or something that could lock these nutrients away in the substrate would be better than say some chain store painted gravel, due to the holding the nutrients down where they be utilized by plant roots, rather than allowing them to be dispersed into the water column where they can be utilized by algae. Am I mistaken?


Niki says nothing here.

--Nikolay


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## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

+1 cec


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

I have had Flourite original in my 75 for 10 years. I lightly gravel vac weekly. The plants grow just fine. I cant say that things are either better or worse overtime - I see no difference.

It is my understanding that certain elements in Flourite are available to the plant's roots. I have also read (peoples experiences) that the manmade substrates can degrade over time as the roots assimilate the nutrients and it will eventually turn to mud.

People need to becareful of what they state on a public forum least they end up like the defendants of the Pets Warehouse fiasco. Opinion is one thing but making ascertations contrary to the manufacturer is another.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

I meant to say laterite, rather than fluorite. Woops. Interesting stuff, Michael and Niko.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Newt said:


> People need to becareful of what they state on a public forum least they end up like the defendants of the Pets Warehouse fiasco. Opinion is one thing but making ascertations contrary to the manufacturer is another.


That's why you saw me typing in such a careful way. So careful that I just removed all I said.

Honestly, you scared me. You all are on our own now in this topic. I will not respond to it any more. Besides I think I said all I could say about it.

EI/PPS all the way, baby. Ignore the substrate because it does not matter and it may not be wise to discuss it.

--Nikolay


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## old 97 (Jul 25, 2011)

;608843 said:


> Ignore the substrate


Seriously?

How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate by A.T. no less than 120'000 views

In less than 20 days Ukamikazo's thread got a thousand views nearly fiffty responses including this one.



niko said:


> I guess CEC is what needs to be tweaked just right. Please don't give up on that project.
> 
> I'd like to see more and more reasonable ideas/implementations like this one. --Nikolay


I myself may not be the most ept gardener of all time - but I can smell a fart in the car.

No one will touch it because they do not understand - I myself am not afriad to learn.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The enigmatic Niko strikes again.

The most comprehensive discussion of substrate I've found is in _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ by Diana Walstad. Another really good source is the Skeptical Aquarist on substrate at http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/substrate, especially if you follow up on some of his links.

I don't consider myself a seasoned expert by any means, but I get consistently good results with soil, mineralized or not, capped with gravel. From what I understand of ADA products, soil in a layered substrate acts in much the same way as Amazonia does, except that it is less convenient.

I am also persuaded that including ingredients with high CEC helps. I like to mix this with the soil under the cap.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

I am finishing up my final drying of some mts, I think I will just cap it with a mix of baylee's better bottom and some pea gravel that looks similar my lfs sells for just about nothing. Been considering mixing something with the soil to bump the cec, maybe zeolite sand or gravel, but I have read a bit about turface as well. What do you recommend Michael?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Turface is my current favorite. It is inexpensive, and since it is intended for horticultural use *and* direct human contact (sports fields) it is unlikely to contain anything very toxic.

I am tempted to try cat litter since it is laterite, but it is almost impossible to find cat litter that is not laced with perfume, clumping agents, "fresheners", "odor control", etc.

Seachem's flourite is an iron-rich laterite, but the price is outrageous in my opinion. I did use it in a planted display tank at my LFS (gotta use the product!) mixed with MTS, and so far so good. It is capped with Ecocomplete (gotta use the product!).

One of the advantages of mixing an inert but high CEC material with soil is that if the newly submerged soil releases excess nutrients, the high CEC material can capture some of them before they escape into the water column. I like a 50/50 mix.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

I considered kitty litter, but I too was worried about additives. I have also read that it breaks down pretty quick, but I suppose that wouldn't make too much difference if it was capped. Do you bulk the mts layer up when you add your cec? Like maybe to 2"? It seems it would be less likely to go anaerobic.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The mts is less likely to become anaerobic when mixed with Turface, but I still keep the depth of the mix at 1" to 1.5". My intuition is that most problems with soil substrates are because the layer is too deep.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I noticed the other day that Aqua Soil is said by its producers to last about a year, and then they suggest you better start adding fertilizers. I kind of like the idea about repotting your tank once a year but it does seem laborious. Maybe it is a labor of love.


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## fjord (Sep 22, 2011)

Where can Turface be bought?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

fjord said:


> Where can Turface be bought?


That is the tricky part. John Deere stores generally carry it. I'm not aware of another national retailer that normally stocks it. Home Depot and Lowe's usually don't.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

Well, I personally live in a pretty agricultural area, so I found it (through the turface website) at a ag chemical supplier. They actually sold me 'primera one turf conditioner'. It is just calcined clay, so I think it is the same thing, right?


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## 100gal-Man (Jul 22, 2007)

niko said:


> EI/PPS all the way, baby. Ignore the substrate because it does not matter


It always amazes me why people have such a hard time understanding this.

Water column ferts.....if people can't grow plants as good as <insert any commercial "soil> with inert gravel, CO2 and water column ferts .....you're doing something inherently wrong.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

100gal-Man said:


> ...Water column ferts.....if people can't grow plants as good as <insert any commercial "soil> with inert gravel, CO2 and water column ferts .....you're doing something inherently wrong.


Because if people don't care to learn they don't care to learn.

Ingorance, according to many, is a bliss.










--Nikolay


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## Reef2plants (Jan 24, 2011)

What an eye-opener this thread has been for a youngin' like me. I dont exactly like what I have seen, but its time to face the facts. Thank you 1000gal and Niko for clearing the air. I wish there were more people in the hobby like you.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...b/80982-par-data-collection-2.html#post610234

--Nikolay


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