# PH keeps rising



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I know I probably didn't have to do a water change on my 10g tank but I was concerned for my little snail that is still in there so I changed 50% of the water yesterday. The ammonia is now at 0ppm and at the time, the ph was at 7.4 but now it's nearing 8.0 again. I don't understand it. Why does the ph keep going up on me? If I can just keep it at 7.4 then I'll be happy with that.

Aquabillpers suggested that I add some peat to a bag and add it to my water but from what I've been reading up on this, it'll also soften my water and I don't want to end up with soft water that'll kill my plants. My GH is at 440ppm. If I put some peat in a bag and add it to the tank water, how much will it lower my GH or even my KH?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Aquabillpers also said that you could reduce your GH by 2/3 and still be considered to have hard water.

He also might have said, or should have said if he didn't, that PH is of significance to fish ONLY if one is trying to breed fish that come from low PH environments, like discus, OR if one has ammonia in the water. Ammonia is much more toxic at high PH's. 

Good luck.

Bill


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> Aquabillpers also said that you could reduce your GH by 2/3 and still be considered to have hard water.
> 
> He also might have said, or should have said if he didn't, that PH is of significance to fish ONLY if one is trying to breed fish that come from low PH environments, like discus, OR if one has ammonia in the water. Ammonia is much more toxic at high PH's.
> 
> ...


Do I detect some attitude there? [-X I was told by someone who has lowered the ph for their bettas that the GH drops down a great deal. Not only that but they also said that the peat that they used in their tanks lowered their KH down by 6d.

That is the reason why I decided to ask about this on this forum. Is that okay? :suspiciou


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Do I detect some attitude there? [-X I was told by someone who has lowered the ph for their bettas that the GH drops down a great deal. Not only that but they also said that the peat that they used in their tanks lowered their KH down by 6d.
> 
> That is the reason why I decided to ask about this on this forum. Is that okay? :suspiciou


I decided that this would be best to answer in a PM, not here.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

How long has your tank been set up? My Ph jumped up to about 8, and then leveled off to about 7.5. Try waiting to see if it stabilizes. It shouldn't harm your snail too bad. I had plenty -o- snails when mine did this.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

rohape said:


> How long has your tank been set up? My Ph jumped up to about 8, and then leveled off to about 7.5. Try waiting to see if it stabilizes. It shouldn't harm your snail too bad. I had plenty -o- snails when mine did this.


My tank has been set up for a little over a week now. The ph is back up to 8.2 but there's no ammonia this time. How long did your tanks take before the ph went down to 7.5?


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I would say a few weeks. Since you just did the water change, try letting it sit and see what happens. Is there anything in the tank that would be detrimentally impacted by the high Ph?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

rohape said:


> I would say a few weeks. Since you just did the water change, try letting it sit and see what happens. Is there anything in the tank that would be detrimentally impacted by the high Ph?


Well the package that my gravel came in said that it could "buffer the PH". I had washed it off throughly before I put it in the tank. I don't know if that could've done it or not. That's really the only thing I can think of. I do have a small cave in there but that never affected the water in the 2.5g tank so I can't see why it would alter the ph in the larger one.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

What type of gravel is this that could "buffer the PH"? I guess the next question would be, to what level does it buffer it to?
I still believe that if you give the tank some time to establish your PH should level out. What could it hurt to try?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

All it said is that it could buffer the ph. It never said what it could buffer it to. Here's a link to the gravel that I'm using(it's just a picture and the name of the gravel). Maybe it's because it's a natural rock? I honestly don't know but I'll just let the tank sit for a couple of weeks to see what happens.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

aquabillpers said:


> PH is of significance to fish ONLY if one is trying to breed fish that come from low PH environments


According to:

http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Fish-Health-Everything-Environment/dp/1552978249

Water pH affects the well-being of fish. When pH remains too high over an extended period of time, fish dies a "slow death with few obvious behavioural symptoms." For more detail, see page 36 to 39.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> All it said is that it could buffer the ph. It never said what it could buffer it to.


I would re-do the tank with gravel that does not try to manipulate pH.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

bartoli said:


> According to:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Fish-Health-Everything-Environment/dp/1552978249
> 
> Water pH affects the well-being of fish. When pH remains too high over an extended period of time, fish dies a "slow death with few obvious behavioural symptoms." For more detail, see page 36 to 39.


Bartoli,

I am not going to buy that book in order to read pages 36 to 39. 

But I believe that the preponderance of opinion is that within normal limits, say, 6.0 to 8.0, pH has little if any impact on the health of fish. Of course, rapid and large changes in pH, like any other variable, can be harmful.

Anglefish are a classic acid water fish, but one of the largest breeders on the West Coast uses water in the 7.8 to 8.0 range. Discus live long lives in highly alkaline water. I have kept acid water characins in high pH water for a long time.

Some fish do require acid water to produce viable eggs, but many of those can be acclimated to breed in alkaline water.

Most of the fish we buy are many generations removed from the wild and have adapted to a variety of water conditions.

By the way, there is a tendency on confuse "pH" and "Hardness." There is a relation between the two, but hardness 9GH) has much more impact on the health of fish.

Good luck.

Bill


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

There can be many reasons why a certain opinion is more popular than others. Similarly, there can be many reasons why acid water fish can live a long life in highly alkaline water. After all, a living being is a system of complex interactions among countless factors. Thus, one thing I really appreciate about that book is its explanation on the physiological impact of pH on fish. The more I understand how a system works (and not just its likely outcome), the higher is the success rate of dealing with such system.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Well the package that my gravel came in said that it could "buffer the PH". I had washed it off throughly before I put it in the tank. I don't know if that could've done it or not. That's really the only thing I can think of. I do have a small cave in there but that never affected the water in the 2.5g tank so I can't see why it would alter the ph in the larger one.


Things that affect the pH are listed in my book on page 5. The pH may be higher in the 10 g than the 2.5 g, because plant growth is better or there are fewer or no fish, etc, etc. Every tank is different.

If your plants and fish are doing well, I'm not sure that I would worry too much about a pH of 8.2. If you don't have fish in this tank, I'd start adding fishfood (its decomposition by snails and bacteria mimics fish respiration). Better yet get some fish in the tank.

Having an NPT requires a "leap of faith". That is, good plant growth will take care of the ammonia and other waste products generated by fish (or fishfood). In an NPT these "waste products" become nutrients, acidity, etc that will stimulate plant growth. The stimulated plant growth, in turn, takes care of the ammonia, etc.

In my opinion, the best NPT tanks are those with lots of fish and lots of plants. They each meet the needs of the other. Pretty cool.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> Things that affect the pH are listed in my book on page 5. The pH may be higher in the 10 g than the 2.5 g, because plant growth is better or there are fewer or no fish, etc, etc. Every tank is different.
> 
> If your plants and fish are doing well, I'm not sure that I would worry too much about a pH of 8.2. If you don't have fish in this tank, I'd start adding fishfood (its decomposition by snails and bacteria mimics fish respiration). Better yet get some fish in the tank.
> 
> ...


Well the reason I don't have my betta in there yet is because he's currently recovering from Columnaris. I want to keep an eye on him for this week and next week, I'll most likely be putting him back into his larger home.

Will any kind of fishfood be okay to add to the tank? The kind that my betta really loves is Hikari's Micro Pellets. They are really tiny! They are a bit bigger then a grain of salt. Would this be to small to add to the tank until I can put my boy back in there? I do have the Hikari Bio-Gold pellets but they don't sink to the bottom.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> ...Of course, rapid and large changes in pH, like any other variable, can be harmful...Most of the fish we buy are many generations removed from the wild and have adapted to a variety of water conditions...
> Bill


Exactly! You can google this subject to death and you will see that the consensus based on peoples' experiences is that fluctuations in PH from high to low over short periods of time is what is more likely to kill fish rather than what is considered ideal or not ideal PH for fish. My 40 gallon tank was set up over 7 years ago and the PH is 8-8.5. This is largely due to the fact that the guy who sold me the tank and who set it up decided to add sea shells to the gravel. If you research my fish, you would see that the PH in my tank is much higher than what would be considered an "ideal range" for these fish. Yet they have survived and remain alive and healthy for over 7 years. So, how can that be??? Simply, the PH does not fluctuate too much from 8-8.5 and the fish have adapted or acclimatized to that PH level.

If you are still concerned about the PH, then research fish and purchase those that are known to do well with your tank's PH. Perhaps Black Skirt Tetras which are known to tolerate PH ranges from 5.5 to 8.5.

Good Luck


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I would think that any food would be better than no food. Keep that snail in there and throw in some food. Not the whole bottle though. 
Another thing (don't know how feasible this would be for you) would be to get some of the mulm that has accumulated in your 2.5 and add that. It should give a decent jump start to the soil.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Exactly! You can google this subject to death and you will see that the consensus based on peoples' experiences is that fluctuations in PH from high to low over short periods of time is what is more likely to kill fish rather than what is considered ideal or not ideal PH for fish. My 40 gallon tank was set up over 7 years ago and the PH is 8-8.5. This is largely due to the fact that the guy who sold me the tank and who set it up decided to add sea shells to the gravel. If you research my fish, you would see that the PH in my tank is much higher than what would be considered an "ideal range" for these fish. Yet they have survived and remain alive and healthy for over 7 years. So, how can that be??? Simply, the PH does not fluctuate too much from 8-8.5 and the fish have adapted or acclimatized to that PH level.
> 
> If you are still concerned about the PH, then research fish and purchase those that are known to do well with your tank's PH. Perhaps Black Skirt Tetras which are known to tolerate PH ranges from 5.5 to 8.5.
> 
> Good Luck


So even though a ph of 6.5-7.5 is considered "ideal" for bettas, as long as it's stable, he would adapt to it being at 8.2? I think I can live with that.  I do know of people that have kept bettas in alkaline water and have had no problems. I just figured it would be best to try to lower the ph for him since a more neutral ph is suppose to be better for bettas.



rohape said:


> I would think that any food would be better than no food. Keep that snail in there and throw in some food. Not the whole bottle though.
> Another thing (don't know how feasible this would be for you) would be to get some of the mulm that has accumulated in your 2.5 and add that. It should give a decent jump start to the soil.


Okay then.  I'll sprinkle some food in there today and if my snail is by the surface, I'll drop some pellets by him as well.

I never thought about collecting some of the mulm from his smaller home to add to the bigger one. That's something I'll try. Thank you.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Personally, I don't how to measure what is best for fish. I mean, how do you measure "fish happiness." It would be nice if fish could talk and tell us what they prefer, lol . For me, I have successfully kept bettas in PH as high as 8.0. They swam, rested, ate, were active, built bubble nests and continually tended to the bubble nests adding more bubbles daily. To me that would be evidence that the bettas were happy. The key again was that the PH was steady at 8 and did not dramatically fluctuate from day to day. If that had happened, I think the story may have been different.

One thing that I would suggest. When you purchase fish, ask the fish store about the PH the fish were raised in or when you get the fish home take a PH reading of the water in the bag and compare it to the PH of the tank that you will be placing the fish in. Why?? If the PH of the tank that you are going to place the fish in is 7.5-8 and the PH that the fish was raised in is only 6-6.5. The difference IMHO may be too drastic to only allow a short acclimitization process and you could lose your fish. To play it safe, I would probably acclimitize the fish over a longer period of time(say 2+ hours with a little bit of water added every 15 minutes) before adding the fish to the new tank. If your tank PH and the PH the fish is raised in is almost identical, you can probably get by with a regular acclimitization period of 20-30 minutes before adding the fish to the tank.

Good luck.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Homer_Simpson said:


> One thing that I would suggest. When you purchase fish, ask the fish store about the PH the fish were raised in or when you get the fish home take a PH reading of the water in the bag and compare it to the PH of the tank that you will be placing the fish in. Why?? If the PH of the tank that you are going to place the fish in is 7.5-8 and the PH that the fish was raised in is only 6-6.5. The difference IMHO may be too drastic to only allow a short acclimitization process and you could lose your fish. To play it safe, I would probably acclimitize the fish over a longer period of time(say 2+ hours with a little bit of water added every 15 minutes) before adding the fish to the new tank. If your tank PH and the PH the fish is raised in is almost identical, you can probably get by with a regular acclimitization period of 20-30 minutes before adding the fish to the tank.
> 
> Good luck.


I never thought of acclimating fish in that sense as far as PH. The only thing in your suggestion that kind of made me chuckle is half the LFS (common ones I've experienced) don't even know about fish keeping, let alone actually own a fish tank themselves. I could only imagine the look on the employee's face. I wonder if they would ask what PH is. :mrgreen: :lol:


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

rohape said:


> ... I could only imagine the look on the employee's face. I wonder if they would ask what PH is. :mrgreen: :lol:


Lol, tell me about it. Once in a while just for the heck of it, I will go into the LFS and play dumb(I mean act like a real Homer Simpson) and ask the staff questions I already know the answer(s) to. You would fall on the floor laughing at some of the responses. Even in serious situations, I have all but given up asking staff and questions about anything pertaining to fish or tank maintenance. Now, I just Google for information that I am seeking. It is amazing what googling can get you. Chances are whatever problem(s) you have with your aquarium/plants someone in the world has already experienced and resolved and posted about it.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Personally, I don't how to measure what is best for fish. I mean, how do you measure "fish happiness." It would be nice if fish could talk and tell us what they prefer, lol . For me, I have successfully kept bettas in PH as high as 8.0. They swam, rested, ate, were active, built bubble nests and continually tended to the bubble nests adding more bubbles daily. To me that would be evidence that the bettas were happy. The key again was that the PH was steady at 8 and did not dramatically fluctuate from day to day. If that had happened, I think the story may have been different.
> 
> One thing that I would suggest. When you purchase fish, ask the fish store about the PH the fish were raised in or when you get the fish home take a PH reading of the water in the bag and compare it to the PH of the tank that you will be placing the fish in. Why?? If the PH of the tank that you are going to place the fish in is 7.5-8 and the PH that the fish was raised in is only 6-6.5. The difference IMHO may be too drastic to only allow a short acclimitization process and you could lose your fish. To play it safe, I would probably acclimitize the fish over a longer period of time(say 2+ hours with a little bit of water added every 15 minutes) before adding the fish to the new tank. If your tank PH and the PH the fish is raised in is almost identical, you can probably get by with a regular acclimitization period of 20-30 minutes before adding the fish to the tank.
> 
> Good luck.


Homer, I think that is a pretty good description of "fish happiness."

I do doubt that the person at the fish store knows in what conditions the fish he is selling were raised. Most of those come in large boxes from far away places. Even if he sells locally raised fish he probably doesn't know the water conditions in which they were kept. Fish store personnel are widely criticized for lack of knowledge, and properly so, although there are exceptions.

The PH of the water in a bag of fish is usually acid, because the fish give off CO2 as a byproduct of respiration.

I agree with your method of acclimation. I would add that any water from the fish store should be discarded because of the chance that it contains pathogens.

Also, the fish should go into a quarantine tank for a few weeks just in case in is infected with something. I think we all violate this rule and usually get away with it, but every now and then a new sick fish turns a paradise of a tank into a death trap.

Bill


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

aquabillpers said:


> Also, the fish should go into a quarantine tank for a few weeks just in case in is infected with something. I think we all violate this rule and usually get away with it, but every now and then a new sick fish turns a paradise of a tank into a death trap.
> 
> Bill


The quarantine issue: I was so tired of this I just bought a UVS, since then I have not had a single illness. I have been running one for about 2 years now, 24/7. Since we're on the "El Natural" forums, I'll mention that my most recent UVS purchase was JBJ's Submariner. Very cool design and about time someone made this!  I am 100% pleased with it.
http://www.jbjlighting.com/sys_uv.html


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> ... I think we all violate this rule and usually get away with it, but every now and then a new sick fish turns a paradise of a tank into a death trap...
> 
> Bill


Yes, you are so right. When I got rid of my severum cichlid in my 20 gallon to convert the tank into a tank with various smaller community tank, I inadevertently introduced some rams with what I suspect were gill flukes. The next morning, one by one(rams and non-rams), I would see the fish resting on the bottom, gasping like they were suffocating. They would not recover and would die. At first, I thought it was ammonia or nitrite poisoning as these symptoms are classic symptoms of nitrite/ammonia poisoning. But when I checked my water parameters, nitrites and ammonia were zero and the tank was fully cycled. The only other thing that came to mind was insuffcient oxygen, but I knew that this could not be the case as I had a bubble tube aerating the water and two different aquarium heavily bubbling aquarium ornaments. Then after carefully observing my fish. I would notice the fish the day before repeatedly scratching against aquarium ornaments. Then, it hit me, the tank had *parasites* I tried the classic remedy of adding aquarium salt and turning up the temperature. This did not work. Now, I had two options, tear the tank apart, bleach it and start over and keep a quarantine tank to prevent this problem in the future or just bite the bullet and get a UV sterilizer. The only other option was to treat the tank with anti-parasitic medication and hope that this would take care of the problem. Of course, this would have resulted in the destruction of my biological filter which is not something I wanted to do. The lazy Homer Simpson part of me could not imagine going through the trouble of tearing down the tank and the added trouble of setting up a quarantine tank. I opted for the UV sterilizer. Almost immediately, the mysterious fish deaths stopped as quickly as they had started. That was the best investment I made and have no regrets.

Rohape: can the UV light tube in your UV sterilizer be replaced. I had read that UV sterilizers loose their total efficiency after 6 months and you have to replace the UV bulb for them to work.

P.S. I know that in the EI natural section one should not speak of such things as UV sterilzers as it totally goes against the idea of a NPT. Please forgive me and nobody flame me. I was only sharing my experiences. I will no longer post about UV sterilzers in the EI natural section.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Homer_Simpson said:


> P.S. I know that in the EI natural section one should not speak of such things as UV sterilzers as it totally goes against the idea of a NPT. Please forgive me and nobody flame me. I was only sharing my experiences. I will no longer post about UV sterilzers in the EI natural section.


I don't think that having a UVS goes against anything NPT, so flame me all you want, I'm never getting rid of it.  UVS's are just a step to ensure health, it does not change the water conditions that would give any advantage. I have "heard" that it can reduce Fe, but I'll take a healthier happy tank any day.
Yes you have to change the bulb, but I only change mine once a year. You can buy replacement bulbs, there is actually a little tool that comes with the Submariner so you can safely remove the bulb.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

rohape said:


> The quarantine issue: I was so tired of this I just bought a UVS, since then I have not had a single illness. I have been running one for about 2 years now, 24/7. Since we're on the "El Natural" forums, I'll mention that my most recent UVS purchase was JBJ's Submariner. Very cool design and about time someone made this!  I am 100% pleased with it.
> http://www.jbjlighting.com/sys_uv.html


Dear Rohape,

Thank you so much for posting information about your Submariner UV sterilizer (I had not seen this). The ones I used a couple years ago had to be set up separate from the biofilter with "do it yourself" hose connections. Cumbersome. To combine the UV with the Bio-filter is a great idea!

I highly recommend UV sterilizers for the quarantine tank or the main tank whenever you are introducing new fish. UV sterilizers are highly effective in killing bacteria and parasites. They completely halted a mycobacteriosis outbreak in my 3 tanks a couple years ago (See APC sticky for my "Diseased Fish" thread).

So many aquarium fish being sold are diseased. A new fish may look great, but often it is carrying pathogens that it is resistant to, but to which your fish aren't. This is a situation where quarantining the fish won't really prevent this fish from causing a disease outbreak in the main tank.

Even if the new fish aren't diseased when you buy them, they may be stressed to the point where a small number of opportunistic pathogens in your tank can grab hold. Once the stressed fish becomes a disease reservoir, it may transmit disease to the healthy fish in your tank.

Whatever the disease source, a UV sterilizer reduces the number of potential pathogens so that fish have a fighting chance.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> Dear Rohape,
> 
> Thank you so much for posting information about your Submariner UV sterilizer (I had not seen this). The ones I used a couple years ago had to be set up separate from the biofilter with "do it yourself" hose connections. Cumbersome. To combine the UV with the Bio-filter is a great idea!


This is exactly the reason I got this. As I was transitioning to NPT, I had a lot of issues with my empty canister filter, which I kept empty and running just to keep the UVS in operation. I researched many plumbing techniques and possibilities and stumbled upon the Submariner. I was *THRILLED* when I saw it! The only minor issue is the powerhead should be cleaned at least monthly just to keep good water flow. But the cleaning only takes about 5 min. -vs- a couple hours as before NPT, I would say I'm very happy. 

Thank you Diana for writing such an amazing, helpful, insightful book....NPT bible. :mrgreen:


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I don't have a UV filter but from what I've read, one can be very helpful in removing green water, unwanted organisms in the water, and external parasites on fish.

A question: Some fish have internal parasites, bacteria, and viruses. I am thinking that UV will not kill those. Agree?

Bill


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I would agree, but to combat those internal (as well as external) parasites/issues I think it comes down to pre-purchase research and supervision. 
Research the fish beforehand to see what zone it usually swims in, nocturnal, activeness, swimming habits, etc.? Does the fish "appear" healthy, what about it's tank mates? Most LFS's use common filters for many tanks. What about surrounding fish (adjacent tanks)? 
These are all things that I personally do before buying....99% of the time. Sometimes there's just that "cool" fish, or the fish my wife likes. :mrgreen:

One more thing, this is all across the board for anything living. The healthier the environment the easier it will be for the fish to fight/resist the internal parasite, or any illness/parasite, what have you.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

rohape said:


> One more thing, this is all across the board for anything living. The healthier the environment the easier it will be for the fish to fight/resist the internal parasite, or any illness/parasite, what have you.


I agree. A healthy fish can fight off small numbers of an opportunistic pathogen, but the same fish may become diseased when it is attacked by large numbers of the same pathogen.

The UV sterilizer (properly operated) reduces the number of potential pathogens in the water. It will never be a 100% guarantee, but I'd guess that 95% of ordinary fish disease could be prevented with a UV sterilizer. Its greatest bonanza would be in preventing the transmission of disease from a sick fish to healthy fish.

Finally, the UV sterilizer (unlike many chemical treatments) doesn't harm the tank's ecosystem. It won't hurt plants, the biofilter, snails, etc. Even if it doesn't work miracles, it will do no harm.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Finally, the UV sterilizer (unlike many chemical treatments) doesn't harm the tank's ecosystem. It won't hurt plants, the biofilter, snails, etc. Even if it doesn't work miracles, it will do no harm.


Dear Ms. Walstad,

I had tried UV sterilizer in an established tank. But within 3-month time, the thriving hornwort in that tank slowly disintegrated into piles of needles and I found algae growing on other plants. Then I read that UV sterilizer oxidizes iron and interferes with rootless plant's absorption of iron. So I removed the UV and re-introduced hornwort to that tank. Since then the hornwort has been doing very well and the algae were gone.

Since you have written what I consider the 'bible' of planted tank, I am very interested in your opinion regarding the above situation.

Many thanks for writing the superb book.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I had heard the same thing about the iron. I wonder if thats why my hornwort turned to junk too.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

rohape said:


> I had heard the same thing about the iron. I wonder if thats why my hornwort turned to junk too.


FYI, it was after reading the following article that I decided to remove the UV sterilizer:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=175312


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Since we have been on the topic of UVS's, I have turned mine off. I don't want to totally remove it from the equation as they are still a very valuable resource in aquarium maintenance and health. We shall see if there is a difference in plant growth. Thanks for the profound link on oxidation bartoli.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

bartoli said:


> Dear Ms. Walstad,
> 
> I had tried UV sterilizer in an established tank. But within 3-month time, the thriving hornwort in that tank slowly disintegrated into piles of needles and I found algae growing on other plants. Then I read that UV sterilizer oxidizes iron and interferes with rootless plant's absorption of iron. So I removed the UV and re-introduced hornwort to that tank. Since then the hornwort has been doing very well and the algae were gone.
> 
> ...


Very interesting letter. It doesn't surprise me that UV light would have the dramatic effect on hornwort that you describe. One can predict UV light's degradation of metal chelators, but your practical experience makes it "real".

UV light degrades all dissolved organic carbon in the water via photolysis (my book, see page 167). Dissolved organic carbon would include metal chelators, that is, chelators that provide iron, manganese, zinc, copper, etc to plants. Since hornwort has no roots, it would be starved of chelated micronutrients in the water, especially iron.

When your hornwort collapsed, then algae was able to gain a foothold. Thus, you are correct in saying that UV sterilizer affected the entire ecosystem. There's always a caveat, isn't there? One cannot just get too smug 

Please understand, though, that if your tank is dominated by rooted plants, which get iron and other micronutrients from a soil substrate, the UV sterilizer would have little or no effect. Thus, I had no problems when I used them in my 3 tanks.

Bottom Line: UV sterilizers could harm floating plants and other non-rooted plants (e.g., hornwort) by depriving them of micro-nutrients. The decreased plant growth could invite algae.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Very interesting letter. It doesn't surprise me that UV light would have the dramatic effect on hornwort that you describe. One can predict UV light's degradation of metal chelators, but your practical experience makes it "real".
> 
> UV light degrades all dissolved organic carbon in the water via photolysis (my book, see page 167). Dissolved organic carbon would include metal chelators, that is, chelators that provide iron, manganese, zinc, copper, etc to plants. Since hornwort has no roots, it would be starved of chelated micronutrients in the water, especially iron.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your explanation. The page reference is also very much appreciated. I've just re-read those pages with a better understanding. Again, learning something new from that very same 'bible'. 

For now, I will stay away from UV sterilizer. My tanks are dominated by floating and non-rooted plants. The rooted plants are there mainly to keep the substrate healthy. And I let hornwort to gradually evolve the tank space. Hornwort also facilitates the ad hoc re-distribution of tank space. Of course, hornwort growing well means I don't have to be bothered by algae.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hornwort is a wonderful plant. If it does well, it is certainly worth coddling.  

Perhaps the UVS (UV sterilizer) should best be considered as a temporary measure for preventing disease outbreaks from newly purchased fish? The propensity of UV light to destroy iron chelators may harm non-rooted plants (like hornwort) unless the hobbyist takes active counter measures such as frequent iron dosing. My choice would be to just use UVS in tanks with mostly rooted plants (rooted plants will get their iron and other micronutrients from the soil substrate).

I kept UVS in all 3 tanks for 5 months during the mycobacteriosis outbreak in 2005. The UVS saved my fish and did no harm to the plants-- or anything else that I could see. Since I haven't bought any new fish, and my fish are doing fine now, I am not currently using UVS (Yes, those lamps are expensive!). 

However, if I were to add any new fish to a tank, I would definitely set it up with a UVS (and a brand-new UV lamp). I've been burned too many times by fish diseases. While the disease risk may be ~10-50% (depending on where one gets the fish), the hassle of disease treatment is, in my experience, 100% pain.  

Finally, I must add that I am so pleased to have learned something new from Bartoli, Rohape, and other APC contributors about their experience with UV sterilizers. Thanks!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Hornwort is a wonderful plant. If it does well, it is certainly worth coddling.


I guess I am guilty as charged.  Another good thing with hornwort is that when it is a relatively dense bush, neon tetras like to play hide and seek in it. Sometimes one group played. Other times several groups played within the same bush. Watching several groups played was like watching a big busy party unfolding. Those neon tetras really know how to play! I wouldn't be surprised if they are among the most playful fish (if there is such a category).

As for UVS (UV sterilizer), it is very good for disease control. I got mine because a neon tetra was coming down with illness (I don't remember exactly what that was). While I could have moved her to another tank to be a loner, she seemed to still enjoy the company of others. Thus, I installed an UVS to guard against the spread of disease. Eventually, she died (in the company of her playmates), but others remained healthy. Of course, the hornwort became weaker and weaker. And I did not suspect that the UVS was actually starving it. Poor thing!

Speaking of sick fish, I noticed that in a tank setting up as per your book's advice, sick fish tended to live much longer and disease progressed much slower. But that is just my subjective impression.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

bartoli said:


> I guess I am guilty as charged.  Another good thing with hornwort is that when it is a relatively dense bush, neon tetras like to play hide and seek in it. Sometimes one group played. Other times several groups played within the same bush. Watching several groups played was like watching a big busy party unfolding. Those neon tetras really know how to play! I wouldn't be surprised if they are among the most playful fish (if there is such a category).


You make me want to go buy more hornwort. I love watching my neons play in my dwarf sagittaria. I agree, they would have to be the most playful fish, next (in my tank anyway) would be celebese rainbowfish.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Oh, celebese rainbows... they are very beautiful. Their long fins provide graceful extension to the body line and accentuate the visual of body movement.

I found that my neon tetras tended to play chase shortly after the light first turned on in the morning. It was like after a night of rest they were all charged up to play again. Often times several groups played separate chases at the same time. Then the whole tank became one big busy playground. When they were in the midst of their game, they tended to ignore any food dropped into the tank. Chasing one another was obviously more important than being fed. 

They occasionally let a chase got out of hand and turned it into a nasty fight between two. Despite others' intervention to break up the fight, it sometimes continued until both sides called it a quit. What a personality! But I wonder whether the intervening ones were acting out of compassion.

Attributing compassion to the fish in our tank may seem a bit far fetched. But the more I read what neuroscientists said about the linkage between behavior and brain development, the more I found it likely that even tiny little fish can have compassion. Here is the published proceedings of a meeting focusing on compassion:

Visions of Compassion

http://books.google.com/books?id=YHk6cmONxtgC

And I learned from the following the various dimensions of fish behavior:

Fish Behavior in the Aquarium and in the Wild

http://books.google.com/books?id=LUtfUQ5YNnIC


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

bartoli said:


> I found that my neon tetras tended to play chase shortly after the light first turned on in the morning. It was like after a night of rest they were all charged up to play again. Often times several groups played separate chases at the same time. Then the whole tank became one big busy playground. When they were in the midst of their game, they tended to ignore any food dropped into the tank. Chasing one another was obviously more important than being fed.


Funny your neons play in the morning, my celebese and hi-fin rosy barbs all do the mating chase/dance for about 2 hours once the lights turn on. They stop to attack my fingers during feeding, then get right back at it. It's amazing, and beautiful to watch the males flare! I have some crappy film, and some photos I need to fix up, but it's awesome. I love watching them!


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