# unsure about lighting my NPT



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

I'm setting up a 37 gal NPT which will receive limited direct sun, but plenty of ambient light. (The tank will be roughly 10' away from south-facing french doors.)
Limiting factors are: the tank is tall (22"H), there will be some tannin-producing Mopani wood inside, and some floating plants.

I have narrowed my selection to one fixture based on my lighting needs and budget constraints:
*Current USA Nova Extreme 30" 2x24W T-5 10,000K - Freshwater*

I could purchase two of these - which will give me 96watts / 37gal = 2.59wpg.

Will this amount of light be insufficient, adequate, or overkill for my setup?

thanks!
Jack


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Way over-lit. One of those without indirect sunlight would be enough to demand compressed CO2.

When looking at the T5 HO/NO bulbs, add 50% on to your estimation to get T8/CF equivalence. 2.59wpg is already going to demand compressed CO2, but that becomes more like 3.9wpg which is complete overkill.

Odds are all you really need are a couple strips of T8 at most.


----------



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

Philosophos said:


> When looking at the T5 HO/NO bulbs, add 50% on to your estimation to get T8/CF equivalence.


Hmmm... I did not know that - I thought watts were watts!

See, that's why I need to ask these questions. Thanks.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Watts are just watts; you'll get electromagnetic radiation and you know how much, but it says nothing of the quality or efficiency. It can make toast or light your tank, what determines that is everything else. The compounds in the bulb and the frequency of the ballast are far more important, to the point where WPG equivalency to T8 is divided by 5-6 for incandescent, and multiplied by 3 for high quality LED.

Don't get all wrapped up in PAR though. Worry about having the tank look as you want it in terms of color; pay attention to things like CRI and K rating for aesthetic more than efficiency.


----------



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

I'm sorry - I'm probably more confused now! 

I've read somewhere that T8 & T12 bulbs are simply not powerful enough to light an area more than 8-10" below the bulb.

I also read that w/ a Walstad-style NPT, 1-2wpg is good moderate lighting for tanks w/o sunlight. Is that incorrect?

I assumed that my 37gal being so tall would dramatically reduce the light hitting the substrate. If the T5 HO fixture I mentioned in the first post has 48 watts and even if we add +50%, then that puts the ratio just below 2wpg. Shouldn't the available light at the bottom of the tank be far less? Maybe two of these fixtures (96 watts) is overkill... but I still think one would work in my situation.

Another alternative would be a 4x18w normal T5 fixture which would give me a similar ~2wpg ratio, but would not be High Output... 

I dunno, still scratching my head on this one.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

8-10" ? Plenty will disagree on this forum. I grew my first plants in gravel with fish food for ferts in a 33 gal with a single strip of T8 over it. Not ideal, but it kept plants. The guy who runs GARF farms SPS corals with banks of DIY T8's. One person over in India who goes by Essabee on TBR runs T8's and T12's on his large low tech tanks.

I've found about 1.25-1.75wpg pretty stable with T8 depending on indirect sunlight. I tend to keep my fish rooms pretty unlit.

What you're missing here is that T5's (T5's are actually more efficient per watt than T5HO) with their low restrike and typically nice reflectors are going to be running around the equivalent of 1.5x the same wattage in T8. 4x18T5 = ~4x27T8. 

Scale back to a couple of 1xT5 if you like; it'll allow you to place the bulbs on the 1/3 marks of the tank for better spread than one fixture with two bulbs crammed into it.


----------



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

OK - I think this all starting to sink in... thanks for your patience in talking me through this, Philosophos!

So... here's my new plan:
*Aqualight Light Fixture with Fluorescent T-5 Lamp - 10,000k - 18W - 30 in.* <-- one of these on the front 1/3 mark
*Aqualight with Colormax Fluorescent T-5 Lamp - 18W - 30 in.* <-- and one of these on the rear 1/3 mark

I'll use a 'siesta' light regimen with the Colormax (this is 6700K, I assume) running most of the time, and the 10000K light timed to burn in the middle of the cycle for a bit of a mid-day blast. I can play with the duration of the 10000K depending on my light needs.

Sound good?


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Sounds great. You can probably run both all day long without much trouble. If you need to reduce to bursts, I'd run one light pre-siesta and just before lights out. CO2 in these tanks is lowest just before things shut down, so it's better to drive less photosynthesis then and take your chances with full light when the CO2 is freshly replenished.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

j.edi said:


> I'm setting up a 37 gal NPT which will receive limited direct sun, but plenty of ambient light. (The tank will be roughly 10' away from south-facing french doors.)
> Limiting factors are: the tank is tall (22"H), there will be some tannin-producing Mopani wood inside, and some floating plants.
> 
> I have narrowed my selection to one fixture based on my lighting needs and budget constraints:
> ...


As you have accurately pointed out. The height of your tank 22" does make it more difficult to run this type of setup since you want to use lower light levels, but at the same time you need enough to reach the plants. I don't think the lighting of 18w x 2 is going to give you what you need, but that's just me I guess. What are you trying to grow?


----------



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

houseofcards said:


> What are you trying to grow?


I was gonna start with the "hard to kill" package from AquaBotanic and thin/replace as needed:
2 Java Fern 
2 Anubias nana 
3 Java Lace Fern 
4 Cryptocoryne spiralis
6 Cryptocoryne wendtii small
1 Hornwort
2 Wisteria
10 Dwarf Sag (1 bunch)
1 Java moss​
I also want to supplement this with Cryptocoryne walkeri, Vallisneria spiralis, and duckweed...

I'm also going on the understanding that the T5 bulb has a x1.37 T12 multiplier (plantedtank.net/articles/Light-Bulb-Comparison/29/)

So with both 18w T5s running, that would equate to ~1.3wpg + available ambient light.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

More like 1.4. Both running is perfect. Bulbs tend to have about a 3 month break-in period of higher output, so you may have to start with doing some bursts but it should settle down to both on all day after that.

I really wouldn't bother with that chart. It's all bulb and no reflector consideration, tested with a PAR meter rather than lumens. You won't find most stock t8 fixtures have parabolic or semi-parabolic reflectors. If you want someone to bother about it in depth, talk to Hoppy over on TPT; nobody has done more work on the subject in relation to aquatic macrophytes that I know of. I'm getting my very loose estimations from his work. To be honest, if I can grow HC under 1wpg of T5HO with semi-parabolic reflectors, geissmann bulbs in sunblaze fixtures (sunlight supply, same people who make Tek) then I don't think you've got a ton to worry about with your rig and perspective stock.

Your plant list is definitely easy to keep, crypts are nice and H. difformis is probably one of the most pleasing plants for how easy it is. I'd toss the hornwort back into the lake myself; myriophyllum looks nicer, anchors with roots, and won't auto-frag into a big mess. The val is going to mean you can't use excel/glutaraldehyde, but NPT's rarely see the stuff anyhow. Ask around for some kind of salvinia rather than duckweed if you can; it's less of a plague if you want it gone, and it looks far nicer.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Philosophos said:


> ... To be honest, if I can grow HC under 1wpg of T5HO with semi-parabolic reflectors, geissmann bulbs in sunblaze fixtures (sunlight supply, same people who make Tek) then I don't think you've got a ton to worry about with your rig and perspective stock.


Any chance we can see some pics of your tanks running < 1wpg? I'm actually curious to see how that works out and what plants you're growing. Preferrably in your tanks with pretty good depth, let's say 18"+ - thanks!


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You just told me that I have serious issues over on another thread and pretty much tossed false accusations at me before running off. Why would I even think that there's any productive conversation to be had between us, or that agreeing to your request could bring me anything other than personal attacks? I'm sorry, I'm not going to be baited.

For anyone who wants proof of low light HC using better evidence than photos can provide, talk to Diana Walstad about her experience growing the stuff in an NPT, or Tom Barr taking ~40mmol readings on growing the stuff. If you want PAR data on T8's over various depths, talk to Hoppy for his PAR work. I would call this superior to any number of pictures that anyone could supply.

*EDIT* come to think of it, I have pictures of the HC in that tank sitting over on TBR. If you look through my past created threads you should see it somewhere around the landscape slide thread; I pushed the angle too steep for the aquasoil in a couple of places. I just measured the tank, it's 20 inches from bulb to about where that photo was taken. It's growing healthy, I believe someone else even commented that it was looking good. The lighting is not <1wpg, it's about 1wpg. "The HC is sitting underneath" rather than "The light is at values below" for interpretation. Two 54w fixtures, neither on at the same time as the other, well broken in (>6 months) atop 50 gal standard (48 true volume). I'm still not interested in debating the finer points or taking photos for someone who just got through attacking me personally on another thread though.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Philosophos said:


> You just told me that I have serious issues over on another thread and pretty much tossed false accusations at me before running off. Why would I even think that there's any productive conversation to be had between us, or that agreeing to your request could bring me anything other than personal attacks? I'm sorry, I'm not going to be baited.
> 
> For anyone who wants proof of low light HC using better evidence than photos can provide, talk to Diana Walstad about her experience growing the stuff in an NPT, or Tom Barr taking ~40mmol readings on growing the stuff. If you want PAR data on T8's over various depths, talk to Hoppy for his PAR work. I would call this superior to any number of pictures that anyone could supply.
> 
> *EDIT* come to think of it, I have pictures of the HC in that tank sitting over on TBR. If you look through my past created threads you should see it somewhere around the landscape slide thread; I pushed the angle too steep for the aquasoil in a couple of places. I just measured the tank, it's 20 inches from bulb to about where that photo was taken. It's growing healthy, I believe someone else even commented that it was looking good. The lighting is not <1wpg, it's about 1wpg. "The HC is sitting underneath" rather than "The light is at values below" for interpretation. Two 54w fixtures, neither on at the same time as the other, well broken in (>6 months) atop 50 gal standard (48 true volume). I'm still not interested in debating the finer points or taking photos for someone who just got through attacking me personally on another thread though.


I asked you a legitimate question and you start slinging mud. I think if the Mods look through this thread they will see that my responses are on topic and respectful. I simply am sharing my views and I wanted to see what you have to show, since to me it's unusual to grow a thick HC carpet in a tall tank with lighting that's under or at 1wpg. Your description of a tank with some slope, yaya 2wpg but you never use the other bulb is pretty week so in short you don't have any proof of this, but simply quote other people like Tom Barr. Even if Tom Barr can do this, it doesn't necessarily equate to any aquarist doing it. Most don't have has knowledge since this is his profession. Everything I express is from my OWN personal experience. Show me some of your own pics of plants you grow with <1 wpg. Surely you have so much experience you must have a ton of pics. I'd like to see the species and height of tank.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

From the thread where I described my issue:










54w over a standard 50 gal, 11 hour photoperiod, 2 hours off in the afternoon. Fixture is as described earlier in this post. The water is tannin stained, hence the yellow color. This picture of my tank is worse evidence than the actual scientific information that others with a better knowledge base and equipment can provide.

I have no interest in dragging out your personal issues with me on a thread belonging to someone else. I have so many issues with so many things that you say (even on this thread), that I refuse to put someone else through the threadjacking. As I said, I'm trying to keep things civil. I'm not about to continue this here; you can PM me if you really care that much.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm going to put aside your continuous mud slinging and stick to relevant FACTS. The example your using about growing HC with 1 wpg is from a *Dry Start*. This is what you speak of when you tell the OP that your growing HC in < 1 wpg. I give up.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

That's a full tank, started as a DSM. Notice where I mention tannin stain. Notice that I never said <1wpg, I even explained that your interpretation was different from what I was attempting to communicate. The tank had been full for about 3 months there. Notice the HC is actually floating in the picture?

Please do give up though. Think of it as empty, my ideas invalid for whatever reasons you have. I really don't think I have anything to gain communicating with you, and I don't feel like going through it on someone elses thread.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Philosophos said:


> ... Notice that I never said <1wpg, I even explained that your interpretation was different from what I was attempting to communicate. .


Is this not your quote below?



Philosophos said:


> .. To be honest, if I can grow HC under 1wpg of T5HO with semi-parabolic reflectors, geissmann bulbs in sunblaze fixtures (sunlight supply, same people who make Tek) then I don't think you've got a ton to worry about with your rig and perspective stock...


What am I not understanding? I'm really trying to understand you. I realize the tank is full of water now, but maintaining an HC carpet for a few months after a Dry Start is a lot different than establishing it and growing it full under water with < 1wpg.

Further, you also state in your thread that you linked to on the other forum and I quote:

_"So, any ideas on how to fix this mess? If I move any of the rock, it means tearing up a large part of nicely established dry start HC that's sitting behind it. I can't drain the tank because I've got more shrimp hiding in there than I'll ever be able to catch". _

So if the HC will grow so well with <1 wpg, what's the big deal, pick up the loosened patch and replant pieces of it. It should be back to a full carpet in no time. You even state that you would prefer to drain the tank, but there are shrimp in it.

You seem like a very intelligent person, can you at least admit this is was not the best example for the OP about growing HC and/or plants in lowlight.


----------



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

Thanks for keeping my thread active and entertaining, but please - no more drama... :grouphug:


----------



## joshvito (Apr 6, 2009)

> The val is going to mean you can't use excel/glutaraldehyde


Why don't val's like Excel?
Do any other Genus dislike the product?
What is the chemistry reason?


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

j.edi said:


> Thanks for keeping my thread active and entertaining, but please - no more drama... :grouphug:


Just the facts, my young apprentice!


----------



## j.edi (May 17, 2010)

Alright, so...

What about 3 18wT5? The Coralife Aqualight freshwater series has a double strip w/ a *5500K and a 6700K bulb, and their single strip comes w/ another *5500K bulb.

I was thinking about moving the 6700K bulb from the double to the single and replacing it with a cool white (4100K) [per Walstad, _Ecology..._ 2nd ed. p180]. 
I would place the double (4100K + 5500K) on the back and the single (6700K) on the front. 
All 3 combined would be just over 2wpg (using 1.4x as a multiplier)

I'd rather err on the side of too much light, I can play with light periods to find a right balance. Also considering reducing the water level a few inches, if that would help...

*edit: not too sure about the Coralife Colormax K rating. It might not be 5500K.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

j.edi said:


> Alright, so...
> 
> What about 3 18wT5? The Coralife Aqualight freshwater series has a double strip w/ a 5500K and a 6700K bulb, and their single strip comes w/ another 5500K bulb.
> 
> ...


I know how it goes; people think it's all about not having enough light at first because of their experience with house plants and such. The fact is, every species you've listed has been grown repeatedly to very healthy standards by new aquarists with a single strip of T8 and some basic plant knowledge. These plants don't even require good spread most of the time, and two of them would probably do great floating in a bucket outside in the middle of summer. It's more about CO2:light ratio than light and more light.

3x 18w T5 is going to be skimming overkill with broken-in bulbs. These will not be broken in bulbs though, so you'll have 50% higher output tapering down over about 3 months. You are going to need to haul out compressed CO2 or a big batch of DIY CO2 to handle it. Still, most people aren't going to listen the first time; I sure didn't and I went through the usual headaches. All the same, buy 3 now if that's what you'd like to do, just keep an open mind to shutting one off or adding CO2 if you're left with multiple deficiencies and a few kinds of algae about 2-4 months after filling the tank. It's better to learn the bounds and balance of lighting now rather than when you've got plants that have a higher price per gram of dry weight than some street drugs.



joshvito said:


> Why don't val's like Excel?
> Do any other Genus dislike the product?
> What is the chemistry reason?


Vals having excel issues is more of a consistent observation than any well known reasoning. They melt consistently for some reason; try it out if you like.

Non-vascular plants are in the same boat outside of some tougher species. I'm guessing (purely guessing) it's because they rely purely on direct osmosis with a high surface area to volume ratio, and they lack all of the protective elements that vascular plants do. Basically it works on the non-vasculars for the same reason it works on the algae.



houseofcards said:


> Is this not your quote below?
> 
> What am I not understanding? I'm really trying to understand you. I realize the tank is full of water now, but maintaining an HC carpet for a few months after a Dry Start is a lot different than establishing it and growing it full under water with < 1wpg.
> 
> ...


The reply I have to give on your inductive hunt for negative evidence is enough that it'd ensure further drama on this thread. J.edi has asked for this to stop, I'd like to respect that. Once again, you can PM me if you want my opinion.

Oh, and yes I did patch in HC in certain places. I've trimmed it since then, roots have established, it's grown. Some areas were too steep and I need to overhaul that rock structure.


----------



## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

No more bickering, or I'll have to lock this, which would be a shame. Please respect the wishes of the OP. Thank you.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

J.edi,

Personally I would go with your original choice of the Current 2x24 (just one). I actually have that light on a 15g that is only 12" tall with slow growers and no co2. Your tank is almost double the height so it will of course be reduced, but that should work well with your Natural setup. As you know tall tanks aren't really ideal for a Natural setup, since you need to drive more intense light through the system to reach the plants, but it can be done.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

My favorite light system is the T5NO at Big Als. The bulbs seems to have better color spectrums for plant growth.

The bulbs are cheaper to replace than the PC's.


----------

