# Cart before the horse



## RESET (Oct 12, 2010)

Hello all. I joined the forum for the sole purpose of asking this question. I am very interested in having my new 75 gallon North American Native tank set up in the Walstad Method. After reading that Diana frequents this forum I figured that this was the perfect place to ask the question.

I originally got this tank in the hopes of starting a SA dwarf Cichlid tank. I swapped everything out from my 40 gallon Asian tank just to cycle the tank, everything but the substrate. So, I have 75 gallons of cycled water in the tank and now I want to go natural with it. The question is, how do I add the dirt when the tank is full of water already?


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

In my opinion it's impossible to add garden soil when there's water in your tank. You will mess up the whole tank and the soil debris may lead to algae eventually. 

I would encourage you to remove all the water. Store the water somewhere with your filter running. You can have a bit of water in the tank but the soil must be able to cover the entire water level forming a layer of mud. Then you use some kind of sand to cover the soil to prevent the dirt from floating around. Hope the idea makes sense to you.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

OK, this is totally off the top of my head.

Moisten the soil to a mud-like consistency. Spread it in inch thick layers on cookie sheets or baking dishes. Freeze it solid.

Have plenty of rocks or other weights and your cap of sand or gravel ready. Take the frozen soil out of the freezer, put it in the tank, weigh it down with rocks. You will probably have several pieces to place at once. As soon as they are held down by the rocks, pour the gravel cap over them.

If you can do this before the soil melts, it should work. But just remember, I've never tried it!

--Michael


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

lol, Michael, that sounds like a great idea!! and since is mud being frozen it might actually sink by itself =)


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

While I can appreciate what you went through to get it, I don't think cycled water is of much use in setting up el natural. It is my understanding that the bacteria grow on things, not much floating in the water. Anyway, you typically perform several fairly rapid water changes in a new tank, especially if you stock it right away. Even filling the tank the first time, if the water turns cloudy (muddy), you add more sand or gravel to where ever the soil is leaking, drain and refill. 

If you really want to save it and don't have 15 homer buckets handy, you could store it in the bath tub while you plant the tank. Or maybe you have a laundry sink you could scour well. Just thinking with my fingers here...

Good luck and please come back again to let us know your progress.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I agree with Vicky that there's not that much bacteria in the water but I think it's wise to store some of the existing water. The reason is new tap water may kill the bacteria in the filter. The same concept which we don't rinse our filter media directly using tap water.


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## RESET (Oct 12, 2010)

I like the frozen mud idea but I don't have that many cookie sheets. I have (4) 5 gallon buckets that I could save some of the water in. I agree that there is little BB in the water, my filters have biological media in them anyway. One has bio wheels and the other has the large porous pads behind the filter pads. I don't plan on running the filters after the conversion to el natural. I guess I should just save as much water as I can, just avoid wasting it, and empty the tank. That is just a lot of work that I was hoping to avoid. I will post back to let you all know what I ended up doing and how it went.


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## 1aqumfish (Jul 28, 2008)

Just save some water whatever is practical then use your established filters until the tank is stable. At that point you can decide what to do with the filtering. Its really the filter and the substrate that is broke in. Getting the substrate right is the most inportant thing here imo.


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## PeterE (Feb 9, 2010)

Awesome! I love natives! And I also think Michael's idea is genius. It sounds to me like it would work. Do you have any other plans on fish or plants?


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## RESET (Oct 12, 2010)

I have no idea what plants I am going to use. I plan on getting a 8-10 smaller sunfish and a good sized school of red fin shiners. I wanted to get some darters as well but they like current in their water so I think I will stay away from those.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

A native biotope would be very cool. I believe both Davemonkey and Mudboots are very familiar with North American natives, and have kept sunfish. You might start another thread with "native biotope" in the title to attract their attention. And of course, we would all love pictures!

--Michael


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Hmmm this is a strange one.
Do you have fish already in the tank? 
Also, its not the water cycling. Its the soil, substrate and filter that carries the most cycle bacteria. Chances are, if you load up on lots of plants initially you will not even need a proper cycle.

So... if you dont have fish in the tank, and you insist on keeping the water, maybe you can remove evertying in the tank, except the water... then add the soil. Keep dark and let the soil settle... it might take a couple days to settle or who knows, it may never settle... then you can cap, and plant.

BUT... what for? why not just drain the tank and set it up from scratch? use the buckets to save some water, keep the filter running and store the fish while you set it up.

The initial setup with soil+cap and plants (and making sure not to disturb the substrate when filling) is absolutely CRUCIAL. Would rather not risk this process for the sake of some gallons of water. You can use your cycled filter of some time at first. It will definitely help you out removing cloudiness and whatever ammonia spike you might get.... so since you already have it, use it, and consider removing it only after you know your plants are growing and effectively removing ammonia and so on....


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

I also agree that the water is not much help and removing it would be most practical. Trying to add the soil now would probably be difficult and messy. Could you ask to borrow some old filter media from whoever you got the cycled water? it will contain substantially more bacteria than the water does and will help cycle your tank faster than the water will (which proably wont do a whole lot anyways). you could also borrow a decoration that is in a cycled tank or some of their gravel (which you can put in a socking or just add to the tank). you could also do the cat food/dogfood method after adding the cycled media. I have never done the petfood method, but i think you put a piece of the food in some water with a spoonful of soil. the soil seeds the container with the bacteria, which multiply rapidly due to the nutrients released by the food. then add the whole lot to the tank.


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## RESET (Oct 12, 2010)

OK, I get the point about the water not containing the BB. The whole point of not wanting to remove the water is that I did not want to waste the water. I am on rural water and it comes at a premium. Plus, I don't like throwing out water for no reason. I even use my water from water changes to water my house plants. So, I will remove 20 gallons and set them aside and then drain the tank. I have two filters currently running on the tank and will keep them running after the tank is reset, until testing indicates that the plants are doing their thing.

I would love to do a native biotope. My WCMM tank was an asian Biotope. I will have to start a thread as suggested.

On that note, consider this thread closed. I will not be adding the substrate with the water in the tank.


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