# Thoughts on AquariumPlants.com's own Substrate?



## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

Well im getting to the point of putting everything and finally getting my 72g bow up and running. Im at the last thing to get, which from the title you can see is substrate. I have been investigating all the diffrent types of substrate. From Flourite to ADA's aqua soil. I came down to this being what i am considering and the price isnt to outrageous compared to the others i have looked into. Anyonr have experience with it or thoughts on it? Any input would be appreciated. Heres a link to it, it shows whats all in it and such: http://www.aquariumplants.com/Freshwater_Aquarium_Plant_Substrate_p/ss.htm

Thanks


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

Go with Aquasoil.


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

jeremy1 said:


> Go with Aquasoil.


Why? They seem pretty much the same except aquasoil is much more expensive, your pretty much paying for the name. So why pay more almost the identical thing?


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

They arent the same at all, the stuff you linked to I believe is very similar to soilmaster or turface. Will it grow plants probably, but there is better out there. Aquasoil is the best stuff I have used.


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

I don't want to be spending 100s on just substrate. This is going to be a no co2. So I don't think I am going to be needing the best, ik jujst wanted something better than just regular gravel


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Turface won't "probably" grow plants it will without any problems and has been used by many, many people and has a higher CEC rating that Aquasoil so while Aquasoil has organic ferts from the start for better plant uptake in the beginning Turface will acquire it over time using water column ferts. 

As I said on TPT it would be cheaper to buy Turface locally if you can as AquariumPlants.com is pretty much the same thing and wouldn't give you better results.

I wouldn't get to caught up analyzing the various substrates, anything in the 1mm to 3mm range will work fine for you as long as you dose water column ferts so pick something you like looking at everyday and can be found cheaply in your area unlike the blind devotee's of one method or another.

- Brad


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## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

Or just use some organic soil capped with cheap pool filter or commercial grade sand... $18 for enough to to make you happy. Add dirt, add sand, add water.


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## edwardn (Nov 8, 2008)

I use Turface covered with pool filter small gravel. I cannot imagine plants growing better in any other medium. Also, I cannot imagine people falling for all sorts of "wonder substrates" with all those 
'wonderful results' with dying plants coming alive just on sight of the 'wonderful substrate'. 

Prior to placing Turface in a tank, it is enough to soak it in water containing all these fertilizers one use for water column and one have a truly wonderful substrate, which in addition to that, permits water, oxygen and nutrients from water column to circulate fairly easy to the root zone...

Besides all that, Turface is good for ones stomach!!!

It doesn't make you sick, when you pay for it....


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

Isn't it going to turn into mud then after sometime and get hard? So I would need to make sujre how ilayed out the tank was gunna be the way I wanted to for good?


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## edwardn (Nov 8, 2008)

I started to use Turface in 70'. It is a calcinated clay and I have never seen it deteriorating or 'turning hard'.

And this is true in aquarium as well as in the potting soil mix, which I used to make in my nursery and used in succulent's production.


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## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

I doubt Turface/SMS would get compacted, it is a fairly big grain size.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

aquariumplants.com substrate is the same thing as Soilmaster Select, it's just more expensive:









The only thing your plants are going to get out of it is iron; the rest has zero bioavailability. Your plants will get about as much nutrition out of it as you would eating the stuff. it's probably got some CEC so you can build up nutrients in it through column dosing, but it's definitely not aquasoil.

Aquasoil will drop your pH, provide plenty of nutrients, aquascape nicely, drain well for drystart, etc. It's trickier to use, but it's very well worth it. There are other products out there that do similar things, they just haven't hit this continent. Oliver Knott has his own similar product out, and I've heard mention of others.

-Philosophos


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

So i buy Turface and then add a 1" layer of whatever gravel i want over the Turface? What i want to see on the top is something that is as small as Turface pro league but in black.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Oops, that picture was the turface comparison. Same thing there as well.

Turface is also; it's not nutrient loaded and prone to mucking up the water or anything. Same goes for EC, fluorite, etc. If anything you'd want to use these products to cap mineralized soil and such. 

If you're just starting out and you think you'll be moving your plants much, I'd avoid layered substrates; they'll end up mixing. I'd actually avoid them more than aquasoil. Inert with some CEC is a good way to go, but it's going to take time to nutrient load the substrate. During this time you should keep your dosing as tight as you can.

-Philosophos


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## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

Turface/SMS/Aquariumplants are standalone substrates, no need, nore benefit to capping it with sand. Capping with sand is used with actual soils (like Miracle Gro Organic Choice, etc...)to keep it from floating around in the tank.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Turface's CEC rating is higher than most any other substrates we use (I don't have soil results on anything else)

CEC Raitings:
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Turface......29.8 meq./100g
Kitty Litter..27.0 meq./100g
ADA I.........24.7 meq./100g
Topsoil.......24.3 meq./100g
Fluorite......1.7 meq./100g
Sand..........<0.1 meq./100g

So only having iron trace isn't a downside after a month or two it will have enough fert ions built up to supply your rooted plants just fine along with regular water column dosing.

I wouldn't cap Turface ether tho I would cap non-fertilized top-soil with Turface or PFS.

- Brad


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

I agree with everyone on getting Turface, only problem is i want a black substrate and this is brown


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Head for EC then; it's pretty good stuff. The odd batch has shells in it though, so check the bags over before you buy.

-Philosophos


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## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

tsweers, get some organic choice potting soil and cap it with black diamond blasting grit. The Black Diamond is made mainly of iron, and the organic acids I am sure make it biologically available at the roots. Also, soil allows more intimate contact with the roots than Turface/SMS can do.


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

Anyone have any pics of Turface charcoal? Im tryin to compare the color to the AP.com Charcoal substrate. I want as close to black as i can get.

I dont want to deal with actual soil as i think that would be a pain and get messy.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi tsweers89,

Here is what Turface Pro League Grey looks like in one of my aquariums:


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## tsweers89 (Nov 2, 2009)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi tsweers89,
> 
> Here is what Turface Pro League Grey looks like in one of my aquariums:


Is Turface Pro League Grey the same as Turface charcoal?


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## Rastan71 (Oct 18, 2009)

I think it is. I bought 2 gallons of the aq.com substrate and it looked grey just like the pic Philosophos posted, but once it got wet, it turned a black color. I used it to cap off miracle grow potting soil in my 58 gallon NPT setup.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi tsweers89,

Turface describes the colors for their Pro League product here. They have brown, grey, and red. BTW, the Pro League is a smaller grain size than the MVP.


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## mgamer20o0 (Jul 15, 2006)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi tsweers89,
> 
> Here is what Turface Pro League Grey looks like in one of my aquariums:


i might be blind but it looks the same as my SMS.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi mgamer20o0,

I have to agree with you. Last Thursday I set up a 30 gallon with Soilmaster Select Charcoal (which I believe is no longer available) and the grain size is almost identical with Turface Pro League Grey. I will have to do a side by comparison and maybe I can get some pictures for people.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You know, I think a lot of what we go through with these substrates is playing with brands when we should be looking at where the clay is coming from and what properties make it what it is. I mean in the end when we say "ADA Aquasoil" what we mean is "akadama clay with preloaded nutrients and some tannic acid that we could've bought at 1/4 the price" and after a year in a planted tank the nutrient loading has balanced its self out to akadama plus what ever the CEC is fed from NH4, P, K and micros.

I'm not saying I have any answers here, but you know I feel like we should be looking at the properties of the constituents of these substrates rather than the brand tagged to it. How far off is the clay in kitty litter from the average of bonsai substrates? How does this compare to charcoal? What is EC made of?

It's all so much like ripping apart ferts, except there's a greater lack of information. When we don't know what it is, we compare growth yeilds or analysis (which means tons of controls or $$). If we can put an effort into hunting down the constituents, then odds are we can classify what we're working with broadly for its known products. You can bet these relatively small (even the largest) aquarium companies aren't opening up their own quarries, so that means more than the hobby is looking for some of the properties of this ingredient. If we're lucky, there's already an analysis that covers some of what we're looking for.

Just thinking and ranting here.


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## mgamer20o0 (Jul 15, 2006)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi mgamer20o0,
> 
> I have to agree with you. Last Thursday I set up a 30 gallon with Soilmaster Select Charcoal (which I believe is no longer available) and the grain size is almost identical with Turface Pro League Grey. I will have to do a side by comparison and maybe I can get some pictures for people.


i got my sms years go. bought like 6-8 bags and just piled it up until i needed it. from all the pics i have seen it looks the same so i dont know.

it seems once one of these types of substrate starts to become popular in the hobby they end up discontinuing it.



Philosophos said:


> You know, I think a lot of what we go through with these substrates is playing with brands when we should be looking at where the clay is coming from and what properties make it what it is. I mean in the end when we say "ADA Aquasoil" what we mean is "akadama clay with preloaded nutrients and some tannic acid that we could've bought at 1/4 the price" and after a year in a planted tank the nutrient loading has balanced its self out to akadama plus what ever the CEC is fed from NH4, P, K and micros.
> 
> I'm not saying I have any answers here, but you know I feel like we should be looking at the properties of the constituents of these substrates rather than the brand tagged to it. How far off is the clay in kitty litter from the average of bonsai substrates? How does this compare to charcoal? What is EC made of?
> 
> ...


rant on. i 100% agree with you but its so hard like you said to get the info. after using most of the name brands eco/flourite/ada i find the cheaper solutions work better for me. when you have a lot of tanks or bigger tanks the prices of these substrates start to look insane. price vs reward just dont work for me.


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## wyoung8 (Nov 29, 2009)

I am a noob to planted aquarium been out of aquariums for about 20 yrs. I satrted a 10 gal anda 55 gal with diy co2. I just p/u a planted 150 gal with pressurized co2 (5lb tank) and getting ready for set up. I have been getting advice and pointers from Ocean Aquarium here in San Francisco. I was advised to go with plain sand. That they sell(cheap) pre rinse and put solid ferts in the sand and liquid fert(kent and seachem) daily as I set it up and used a small canister filter (design for 55 gal size). at least 50 % plants. Any thought with this type of set up? By the way so far his advice has worked well on my 10 gal and 55 gal. Just looking at others experience and learning.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I think Ocean Aquarium has some absolutely mind blowing stock when it comes to fish. If I wanted to get a tank going in the bay area, I'd head there for the fauna. 

At the same time, their plants have severe nutrient deficiencies; even the simplest ones. The advice I've heard from their store is mostly to sell their products, though what they sell will work for low tech methods. The owner seems to be in opposition of high tech/heavy fert and water change routines.

Personally I don't like sand. It can work, it can grow plants, but outside of aesthetic it's harder to work with and contains no nutrients or CEC. Turface and kitty litter would be the two popular choices for cheap substrates with CEC.

Careful which fert tabs you use; many of them don't have much for nutrients at all.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi wyoung8,

I see you are relatively new to APC; Welcome!!!

To receive more responses to your questions, you may want to start your own thread here in the Substrate forum posing your question(s). Some people do use washed sand; pool filter sand seems to be popular. Others indicate that sand is too fine a grain, compacts too much for optimum root growth, and allows hydrogen sulfide gas to build up more easily. See what you started!!! LOL! 

Glad you joined us!


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## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

Shy away from information you get from anyone with a product to sell you. Stick with the free information you pick up here and you'll do well growing just about anything.


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