# beginner questions



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

hi, 

i've been contemplating how to start up my first planted tank when i discovered the natural method on these boards. what's really perked my interest is the lower cost, the ease of maintenance and the idea of a balanced ecosystem. 

having read a bit on the boards and some other sites referenced therein i still had a few questions. first a few characteristics of my local water as a starting point: 

pH = 7.8 KH = 5 GH = 10

i think that is considered fairly hard water? if it is hard will i still have to add a product to bring down acidity of the soil to be used? how do you determine if the soil to be used is acidic in the first place and where do you obtain the product to decrease acidity? (dolomite sand, crushed shells?)

for lighting the tank would get very indirect sunlight at best. would this mean that i should increase the recommended 1.5 wpg and chose a more wide spectrum bulb than the plant grow and soft white that are recommended? i was thinking of a 78W compact fluorescent for my 30g which would be 2.6 wpg. as far as what bulb to use i wasn't sure.

my final concern is how long a tank like this will last. i take it that since the soil is so important for the plants it will eventually get used up. how often do you have to tear the tank down and put in new soil?

thanks for your time, i'm really excited to get my first planted tank running soon.

silas


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi, Silas.

Welcome!

To address your questions:



> . . . having read a bit on the boards and some other sites referenced therein i still had a few questions. first a few characteristics of my local water as a starting point:
> 
> pH = 7.8 KH = 5 GH = 10
> 
> i think that is considered fairly hard water? if it is hard will i still have to add a product to bring down acidity of the soil to be used? how do you determine if the soil to be used is acidic in the first place and where do you obtain the product to decrease acidity? (dolomite sand, crushed shells?)


Your water is fine. Don't worry about the pH. Most aquatic plants do better in hard water. Avoid trying to change your basic water chemistry. That almost always leads to frustration.



> for lighting the tank would get very indirect sunlight at best. would this mean that i should increase the recommended 1.5 wpg and chose a more wide spectrum bulb than the plant grow and soft white that are recommended? i was thinking of a 78W compact fluorescent for my 30g which would be 2.6 wpg. as far as what bulb to use i wasn't sure.


Within normal limits, it is the intensity of the light that influences plant growth, not so much the color. Choose a color (actually, Kelvin rating) that makes your aquarium look the way you want it to. Kelvins of 5000 ("Daylight") and higher are commonly used.

78 watts of CF might be a bit much. Light drives the plants. If you have too much, the plants will run out of nutrients and a mess will develop. A CF watt produces more energy than does a T8 or T12 watt. I'd think that about 50 watts would be enough in your situation.



> my final concern is how long a tank like this will last. i take it that since the soil is so important for the plants it will eventually get used up. how often do you have to tear the tank down and put in new soil?


The theory is that by the time the original nutrients from the soil have been consumed, those from the fish and other tank processes will replace them. I have one 29 gallon tank that is well into its third year.

But I have not been able to maintain a natural tank without dosing nitrates. Others are able to do that, so it is a personal failing. I don't have to dose much, though, maybe just a little bit once a month or so.

Lots of luck, Silas!

Bill


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

thanks for the response. 

i wasn't referring to the pH of the water but the acidity of the soil. most of the descriptions of natural setups include mixing a product such as dolomite sand with the soil to decrease the acidity. i was just wondering if all soil was assumed to need this treatment.

do you mean 50W of CF or just 50W in general? i'm not knowledgeable on the difference. i've not found any affordable options for 50W over a 36" tank. Coralife has a 42W fixture that's only $49 but it provides a mere 1.4 wpg. the only other option i found is an all glass 50W but it's $80. that just seems excessive for a 30g tank. 

thanks for relating your experience on tank longevity using this method. that's a relief to know.

still excited about the tank. probably start looking for soil in the coming days.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

If you have seriously acid soil you could add dolomite to it, but I believe that most soil doesn't need that.

I am not an expert on lighting, and this feeling is being reinforced as I try to answer your question.  CF lighting produces more light energy than T8 or T12 lighting, watt for watt. How much more, I'm not sure, but if I had to guess I'd say maybe 1/4 to 1/3 more. (It would be nice if a knowledgeable person would offer his or her thoughts.)

I would feel safer with the smaller bulb.

Have you read Diana Walstad's "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium?" It contains a wealth of information about setting up and managing natural, soil-based aquariums.

Good luck!

Bill


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

no, i haven't read her book yet. i've just recently learned about the method.

i guess my questions remain how do you tell if your soil is acidic and where can you locally get dolomite sand or crushed shells?

the reason i thought i could use 78W for my 30g is that it wouldn't be getting any sunlight at all. as a base of reference i found on Diana Walstad's gallery that she has a 20g which also doesn't receive sunlight running with a 55W compact fluorescent. My setup would be 2.6 wpg while her's is 2.75. now i'm not saying i could emulate her success at this point but it is a comparable setup.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

silas k. said:


> the reason i thought i could use 78W for my 30g is that it wouldn't be getting any sunlight at all. as a base of reference i found on Diana Walstad's gallery that she has a 20g which also doesn't receive sunlight running with a 55W compact fluorescent. My setup would be 2.6 wpg while her's is 2.75. now i'm not saying i could emulate her success at this point but it is a comparable setup.


In her book Ms. Walstad says to " . . . use about 1 - 2 watts of fluorescent light per gal of tank water." Compact fluorescent bulbs produce more energy than T8's or T12's. Either she has discovered something new or she is using the twisted kind of CF's, which produce much less energy.

Good luck!

Bill


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

the tank i'm referring to is at the bottom of her gallery page.
only Diana herself can confirm exactly what kind of lighting she's using.


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

50W was suggested but would 40W be enough for my 30g? 40W would be 1.4 wpg and about $40 cheaper. 

what kind of effect would the lower lighting have? will i be successful but at a slower rate or will it be a crippled tank with a narrow selection of plants and potential algae problems?


----------



## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> But I have not been able to maintain a natural tank without dosing nitrates. Others are able to do that, so it is a personal failing. I don't have to dose much, though, maybe just a little bit once a month or so.


I'm curious why you think you have to dose nitrates . . . according to Diana's book, most plants prefer taking up ammonium over nitrates. In a balanced tank you would naturally have low nitrate levels since very little ammonia would be converted. If the plants appear to have a nitrogen deficiency, perhaps it could be solved by upping the stocking level or overfeeding the fish a little more to create more ammonium.


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Not to say I really know, but I always thought you could determine your soil's pH but submerging it in a jar after determining you tap's pH. Wait a while then test the jar water and note the difference. At least that could tell you what it would do to your tank initially. I believe my soil is very acidic and dropped the pH in the tank.


----------



## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

As far as I know the acidity of the soil is based on how much it has been weathered and used. So adding dolomite is to replenish the soil.

Anyway, the addition of dolomite is not just to adjust the soil it is also to slowly release calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate into the water column and soil to increase the GH and KH of the aquarium. I mixed in dolomite for this very reason in my 20H as my pH here is 6.4-6.8 and my GH and KH are non-existent. This method has worked well, but the process is very slow and I have resorted to adding calcium chloride and epsom's salts (magenesium sulfate) to increase my GH and baking soda(sodium bicarbonate) to increase my KH to my desired levels.

The reponses about ammonium over nitrates are correct, as long as you are overfeeding the correct amount (this took me some time to find the right balance) you will never need to worry about dosing or switching the soil. The nitrate levels in my tanks are both at 0 when I last measured them, where my phosphate levels are typically around 3.5, which shows that I am overfeeding about the right amount. I no longer bother measuring those levels, but I do tend to check my GH and KH to make sure they are not lowering as I replenish evaporated water.

Lighting is really by preference, I have found that when I measured out what I calculated to be 56watts (2.9wpg) of light over my 20H, it was really only drawing about 45 total watts of power from our line. That is including the powerhead, heater, and 2 x led nightlights. This tells me that I am actually receiving much less light. I paid around $90 bux for both of my 28watt fixtures. I think it was worth it for quality interchangeable lighting. I also use a little indirect sunlight once a day for a few hours and this system seems to work very well so far.

GOOD LUCK! Its great that you are doing all this research before you begin. Don't be tempted to go High Tech, this method takes some time to get used to, but I now take HUGE clumps of beautiful growth out of my aquarium every two weeks and I never have to do any other maintenance besides cleaning the quick filter on the powerhead and adding water every 2-4 weeks. ITS AWESOME!


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

dymndgyrl said:


> I'm curious why you think you have to dose nitrates . . . according to Diana's book, most plants prefer taking up ammonium over nitrates. In a balanced tank you would naturally have low nitrate levels since very little ammonia would be converted. If the plants appear to have a nitrogen deficiency, perhaps it could be solved by upping the stocking level or overfeeding the fish a little more to create more ammonium.


Hi,

I "think" I have to add nitrates because they are essential to plant growth, and in my experience whenever they get down to 0 PPM the plants begin to suffer and I get significant algae buildups. This has happened to me three times. Never again.

In one tank with slow growing plants like crypts and ferns I never have to add nutrients. In another, better lit and with faster growing plants, I have to add a little nitrate once a month or so. This tank one was the third to develop an algae mess when the nitrates got too low. It is slowly recovering.

It is possible to increase ammonia and nitrates by overfeeding and allowing the excess food to rot. I'd rather add a little KNO3 powder every now and then. It is really the same thing, isn't it?

Bill


----------



## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

If you are getting potassium nitrate like I can for 2 bux a pound, then sure its not a big deal. There is a big advantage to using the fish food and that is that it adds all the other nutrients plants need to survive, so essentially you are getting a very cheap natural fertilizer that is much more efficient than just nitrate.

PS: I just have the nitrate, because of my having green water back in the day and thinking it would resolve the problem, which it didn't.  THOUGH, curly willow did in less than a week and it hasn't been back since, even took the willow out! Best 8 bux I've ever spent, and is much cheaper than a UV filter! Though I wish I could find a local "free" source though.


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

01krisp10 said:


> OK, I'll take a stab at this.
> 
> As far as I know the acidity of the soil is based on how much it has been weathered and used. So adding dolomite is to replenish the soil.
> 
> Anyway, the addition of dolomite is not just to adjust the soil it is also to slowly release calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate into the water column and soil to increase the GH and KH of the aquarium. I mixed in dolomite for this very reason in my 20H as my pH here is 6.4-6.8 and my GH and KH are non-existent.


the water in my area is pH 7.8 with a kH of 5 and a gH of 10. it seems that most of the reasons for adding dolomite wouldn't be necessary with those numbers. what does anyone else think?



Emily6 said:


> Not to say I really know, but I always thought you could determine your soil's pH but submerging it in a jar after determining you tap's pH.


i'll try this method out first. i guess that's what really counts is how it affects the water itself. then again it could change the water for the worse but over a longer period of time.


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

anyone have a suggestion about the dolomite either way? Diana?  

i'm in the buying stages now. got the top and light i needed and went looking for gravel and dirt today.

speaking of the gravel. in the step by step guide it says to use 2-4mm gravel. i can't find anything this small. the pea gravel at the local hardware store is more like 5-8mm which is about what normal aquarium gravel runs. Flourite is the smallest stuff i found but very expensive and probably contrary to the Natural method. Sand i've heard is too small. where are ppl finding this size gravel?


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

It is harder to find than it should be.

I get mine at a local builder's supply store. It is known as "builders' gravel/sand" or "blasting sand" and sells for a few pennies a pound. It has to be rinsed until the water is reasonable clear.

A lot of people use pea gravel in soil-based tanks. That works because the plants root in the soil rather than in the gravel. One problem with it is that it can let soil get into the water column when plants are being moved around. The smaller gravel minimizes that better, I think.

Bill


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

is it also known as "paver sand"? if i remember correctly that is some pretty small stuff.

i thought sand in general was to be avoided for its compacting tendencies.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

I'm sorry for the late post; I was away.

According to Wikepedia, "sand" consists of particles of from 1/16 mm to 2 mm in diamater' "gravel", of particles ranging between 2 mm and 64 mm in diameter.

Fine sand does compact; sand composed of grains between 1 mm and 2 mm probably doesn't. Gravel with a grain size of 2mm to 3mm is used by many.

I think "paver sand" could be just about any size.

When I bought my first bag of "builders sand" i measured the grain size by line them up against a ruler, counting the grains to an inch, and making the appropriate conversion. It is tedious but only has to be done once.

Good luck!

Bill


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

silas k. said:


> anyone have a suggestion about the dolomite either way? Diana?
> 
> i'm in the buying stages now. got the top and light i needed and went looking for gravel and dirt today.
> 
> speaking of the gravel. in the step by step guide it says to use 2-4mm gravel. i can't find anything this small. the pea gravel at the local hardware store is more like 5-8mm which is about what normal aquarium gravel runs. Flourite is the smallest stuff i found but very expensive and probably contrary to the Natural method. Sand i've heard is too small. where are ppl finding this size gravel?


Your enthusiasm is great, but I find it hard to answer so many questions from beginners who haven't read my book first. You'll get an idea from answers in this forum, but the book gives you a better overall understanding of NPTs. Your library may have a copy.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I now buy my 2mm - 3mm gravel at a builders' supply company. They are used to selling it by the truckload but they did have a few hundred pound bags lying around, for about 5 dollars each.

Larger fish stores also carry it.

Bill


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

i found an all purpose sand that should fit the bill. it has some elements that are very fine like play sand but i believe most of it is in the 2-4 mm range. 
as for dolomite lime from what i've read on the board i can't tell if it's for counter acting the acidity of the soil, for buffering the water hardness or for providing nutrients to the plants. my local tap water doesn't need buffering unless the plants are going to suck up *all* the minerals from the water column.

i've never kept live plants because of the complexity and expense of doing so. i thought this method would be ideal as it requires less hardware and maintenance.

unfortunately your book is not available at my local library Diana, so i will have to do without it for a while. i may just add the dolomite regardless. i'm guessing that it would be better to have it without needing it rather than not putting it in and needing to add it later. which would be near impossible.

thanks for your reply.


----------



## silas k. (Apr 24, 2007)

well i bought one of those soil pH tests from the hardware store and got a result of 7-7.5.
based on this i won't be adding the dolomite lime. next step is buying plants i suppose.

more research. yay.


----------



## Guest (Sep 29, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> It is harder to find than it should be.
> 
> I get mine at a local builder's supply store. It is known as "builders' gravel/sand" or "blasting sand" and sells for a few pennies a pound. It has to be rinsed until the water is reasonable clear.
> 
> ...


You could also buy pool sand from Home Depot.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hilde Beatty said:


> You could also buy pool sand from Home Depot.


If by that you mean the sand that is used in pool filters, it is too fine. 1mm or less.

Bill


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> If by that you mean the sand that is used in pool filters, it is too fine. 1mm or less.
> 
> Bill


What about play sand, can it be used?


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

the WalstadTankDemo show that oyster shells are added the substrate. Why is this done?


----------

