# Algae, Lights, CO2 and Ferts



## Cneon

Alright. So my tank has been up and running for about a month now. Over the last 1 1/2 weeks, I've been developing algae. Specifically Staghorn and Black Hair Algae. I've been all over all the typical forums (Here, Barr Report, Plantedtank, etc.) looking for good, solid arguments for the cause of algae, and it all came down to the same thing. In high tech tanks, the common factor is too little CO2. So I went and shelled out for a drop checker, filled it with 4dkH solution, placed it in my tank and ... it's yellow 3 hours after my CO2 kicks in. It's clear a couple hours after that.

No fish are gasping for air, the neons have bright, vivid blues and rids, shiny silvers; the shrimps are scavenging to their hearts content and generally doing their typical shrimpy things. Tom Barr said to just keep increasing the CO2, and as long as the fish are happy, all is well. I'm starting to get nervous, as I'm sure I'm near 50 ppm at this point.

4x39 watt T5HO (2 @ 5000k, 2 @6700k) - photoperiod is currently 8 hours. 
Pressurized CO2 (obviously)
EI Dosing (Plants are starting to pick up a bit more nitrates and phosphates now, I check the levels every other day, just as a general reference, so I've been lightly increasing the dosing levels (_very_ lightly). Typically after a dose, the nitrates will jump to about 40 ppm, and a couple of days later ,it's down in the orange colors of 10-20ppm. I perform a 50% water change once a week, as perscribed by EI).

So really my question is this. The eternal question of aquarists the world over and throughout time: what do I do to stop algae from growing in the future? Should I dose more N so that it never drops below 40?

Edit: I recently added two bunches of Anacharis to help compete. Since adding them is when I noticed the spike in nutrient uptake.


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## Yo-han

You don't mentioned the size of the tank, but if you don't want to increase CO2 anymore, than you need to reduce the amount of light. This way you reduce the need for a sky high CO2. Also improving flow (more or better circulation) will increase the accessibility to CO2 for your plants.
Adding more N will not add anything IMO. EI is based on more light than anyone would ever need and even than there is enough N. So normal EI would be fine. The problem with EI is that plants can grow as hard as they want, no other nutrients is stopping them but CO2. As do algae if the plants are missing anything (read: CO2). So you need to be on top of the CO2 every day. Second problem is that every person/website in the US seems to think/mention 4 wpg is high light. Perhaps this was true with T12 lighting, but with T8/T5 this is niet high light, but way too much light for all but the pro's. With T5 2 wpg is more than enough to grow 99% of the plants.

About the BBA, this is due to too much organics in your water IMO. This means you have too many fish in your tank, or plants are decaying (due to too little CO2 for example) or rotting wood, overfeeding (95% of the people do this) etc. This can possible be solved by doing water changes more than ones a week, or doing larger water changes than 50%. Perhaps a better biofilter might help and making sure your plants grow perfect. Lots of suggestions, but to summarize: pristine tank and perfect plant growth! Keep things balanced!


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## alexfdj

Perhaps I've loose something on the way, but I think you started fertlizing too early. At the beginning all tanks must get "mature". In this period of time it can happen that algae win very easily the competition with plants if you put tons of fertilization and straight-on 8 hourse of strong light each day.

I know Tom Barr doesn't use testing, but I suggest you to check how is it the concentration of:

KH
PH
NO3
PO4

further details on tank size would be helpful too...


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## Cneon

tank is 40 gallon breeder.

For filtration I have a Marineland Magnum 350 and a Fluval 204. On top of those, I have a Hydor wave maker and a powerhead (don't know the make/model off the top of my head) to move things around. All plants show movement, and all plants show signs of pearling.

PH is currently at 6.4 (6 hours in to the CO2/Light cycle)
Kh is 6 (both of these are false readings, though, due to my rocks and wood. It comes out of the tap at 4 dKh)
NO3 - right now - is at 20-40 ppm (you know how those API tests are pretty vague. Definitely not red, but the orange of the test has some red in it)
PO4 - 5 ppm
(I own all of these test and have been testing regularly since the algae showed up.)

Turning off a middle 5000k light, taking the total wattage to 117. Reducing photoperiod to 7 hours (down from 8.)

However, on the topic of too much light: The java ferns that are only a couple of inches from the light have *no* algae on them. It's the crypts and some of the staurogyne on the ground that are showing algae .... if too much light was the issue and proving advantageous to algae, wouldn't it be rampant near the surface?



> About the BBA, this is due to too much organics in your water IMO.


 I do not have any sign of BBA in my tank. Just B_H_A and Staghorn.


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## Zapins

I think people like piling all their tank's shortcoming on a nice vague hard-to-test and verify statistic like CO2 because it gives a lot of wiggle room for those who like to pretend they have everything figured out 100%. 

To answer your question how do you prevent algae in the future: I don't think it is really possible to engineer conditions so you'll never get algae. Algae blooms and dies off, or blooms and then you change conditions so it dies off. It is a perpetual struggle back and forth between you and algae. Even Amano's tanks with aquasoil have algae, those tanks get manicured every day by an army of algae scrapers and tweezer-weilding hired hands. The best you can do is maintain a healthy tank with water changes, low organics and proper fertilizer levels and react to algae when it appears.

BHA is not a common way of describing any of the main algae types, therefore it is difficult to know what algae you are describing. Post a picture of the algae you have, or find a similar one on google images.


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## Cneon

This is the stuff, almost exactly, only not as long ... yet. When I hear BBA, I think of









I've done the spot excel, and that's turned it red, and the Otos/Amanos are picking away at it.

It's not a full-on infestation at this point. It's just a couple of plants, but the growth is noticeable, though slow.

Again, all the fish are happy, the plants look happy with no signs of deficiencies and from what I can tell, growth is evident. I just get frustrated when things happen and I don't know the cause of them.


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## alexfdj

I'm not the one pretending to know exactly how algae arise, since I do really know that we just can manage them in our tanks, but I do presume that an high concentration of macro such as you have, it helps a lot algae. In order to reduce them I suggest you to correct the values to 10-15 ppm of NO3 and max 1 ppm of PO4. Let the plants be safe and sound first, since they are the only one able to fight algae. Of course excel it can help, but the most damaged leaves should be taken out (without damaging too much the plants). Reduce light time to 8 hours and keep tank temperature in an about 24 º C. Keep fertilising the tank but reduce quantities and no NO3 & PO4


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## Apprentice

Hi Cneon! I just recently finished a battle with BBA (Black Brush Algae). 

Here are a few additional things to check or augment. 

Co2 is consistent. Fluctuations in Co2 levels can cause algae issues as much as lack of Co2. Check and or clean your Co2 delivery system (diffuser, atomizer, reactor, etc.). Check bubble rate is consistent. Needle valve is not floating. I had problems with consistent Co2. Switched from ceramic atomizer to power head misting.

Adding more plants. Getting at least 75% of your substrate covered will also help. In addition adding fast growing plants like the Anacharis you mentioned will help a lot. I noticed the only other plants you mentioned before were jave fern and crypts. Both slow growers. By adding more plants and a faster growing plant (growing emersed in my H.O.B.) helped to kill off the last of my BBA. My tank flora consists primarily of slow and medium growth plants. 

Also consider adding a cleanup crew. Won't eradicate all algae (like BBA or cladophora) but will help with most other algae and in the break down of food or dead foliage. Amano or red cherry shrimp are great and pretty hardy. 

If you can get hold of a PAR meter, say rent from a local aquarium store or join a local fish or planted aquarium club that has one I would look to set your tank at about 45 to 50 PAR. You should be able to grow 97% of the plants out there and will reduce algae issues.

As far as highly restricting dosing I would not recommend. More likely to harm plants than algae. I currently run my tank at 50 PAR and E.I. daily at half dose. Substrate eco-complete with root tabs.

Regards; Rob


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## Cneon

> Here are a few additional things to check or augment.


Thanks, Apprentice, for sound and thoughtful advice.

I just saw this comment this morning, and here's what I've done over the past three days:

1., Added another bunch of anacharis and some micro sword. I attempted to plant another stem plant species (for the life of me, I cannot remember what it was) and it melted to mush in 2 days. Bright green to literally a nonexistent thing in two days. That was discouraging.

2., Changed my CO2 from inline to powerhead misting. (I looked at my canister filter, and realized that feeding through that would be a problem over time. It gets clogged with gunk, the flow goes down, CO2 saturation suffers, etc.) My drop checker is now just on the verge of green-yellow, but because of the bubbles, I can clearly see ALL plants are getting hit by water flow, which puts my mind at ease.

3., I've decreased the lighting to just 2x39w T5HO (both at 6500k). Lights kick on while I'm at work. When I'm home and am enjoying my tank, I kick on a third 39w bulb (5000k) which rests over the front of the tank (to hit the dwarf hair grass.) I do this 5 hours into the light cycle, and so I have 3 hours of 3x39w lighting.)

4., I have a good crew in there (always have). However, I recently purchased 4 more Amanos (total of 10 now). I also have 6 or so ghost shrimps, 4 Otos, 2 SAEs and 4 Corys. However, the amanos are content to work on the driftwood and not the plants. I haven't seen the otos attack any algae during lights on, so I'm hoping they're doing it nocturnally.

5., I did not hold back on the EI. The anacharis was consuming good deal of nutrients, and the "slow growing" plants like java fern and anubias were showing new leaves about once a week, so I decided the dosing regimine was just fine (I increased it a bit, actually, to account for new plants.)

6., I went in and removed all leaves with algae. This made me cry when it came to the Cyperus Helferi, as there had been huge progress with that plant: many new leaves had developed to a good height and I hacked probably 50% of it back (removed the plant and peeled the leaves from the base, so as to eliminate the plants desire to feed the cut blades). However, some of the java fern leaves still had algae. Spot treated Excel on those, as removing the algae affected leaves on those would have left me with no leaves 

The results: Plants are still pearling like crazy, and my CO2 is no longer at a ridiculously high level of saturation. I'm closely watching new algae growth, but as of right now I see nothing.


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## niko

I like that guy Cneon. He seems so exhaustive. That's a rare thing. That's why he gets good exhaustive responses. But he's done his research on all the forums that will tell you the same thing over and over until you feel stupid.

Cneon,

Please read the Filtration forum here on APC. Please note that this is the only subforum dedicated to filtration on any planted tank forum. Because, you guessed it, filtration is not really important.

You will find out that biofiltration happens best at pH of about 8.0. At 7 it is a fraction of what it could be. At 6.4 you are worried about CO2 gassing the fish but how do you think the microorganisms feel inside the dark, Oxygen deprived filter? Also note that ADA keeps pH at 6.8. That is not only to keep a manageable tank, it has to do with trying to do what is best for the plants AND what is ok for the biofilter stuffed in a sleek stainless steel canister which ADA itself says it is not the best filtration housing there is.

When you read the Filtration forum note that biofiltration is not only about Ammonia and NO3. It is about a million other things too. Actually the NH3/4 --> NO3 process is a tiny part of what the filter does.

So why am I writing all this novel to you? First off because you have a great presentation. Second - because both BHA (same as BBA, the grey fluffy stuff on your anubias) and Staghorn are a result of bad filtration. BBA could care less about CO2, more or less, or if it fluctuates. It really cares about it only when it gets on the internet. Right now I have BBA growing on the top of the sponge used to disperse the CO2 in one of my tanks, Nowhere else. 3 bubbles per second.

BBA is cured though clean water. That is an easy algae to get rid of. Unless you listen to internet folk which, no doubt, are skilled in everything aquaria. And yes, BBA does not like CO2. But ONLY if that CO2 makes the plants grow. Pump all the CO2 in the world but if your plants do not grow well BBA will never go away.

Staghorn. This one is easier. The filter is dirty. When you read about filtration you may find that a biofilter can make Nitrate from Ammonia here and Ammonia from Nitrate over there. In the same canister. Read why and how to set it up right. Staghorn is always related to organics getting into the filter and doing something bad there. Test the water and you will find nothing. But hey - everybody will ask you about your parameters....

One thing you mentioned - injecting CO2 in your canister. That is the worst idea ever. All of us did that in the last decade and felt smart. CO2 lowers pH so the biofilter gets hit with a fresh cloud of pH-lowering stuff. Nice. But if your N and P are good you don't have anything to fear, right...?

Note a minor issue with how people interpret EI. EI is not about maintaining hellish concentrations of N and P like you do (30N and 5P). It is about finding what works best. The initial rough guidelines for ppms are just to give newbies an idea where to start. But no one remembers that it is about adjusting later. Everybody gets on the fast track or ferts, light, and more and more CO2. If you look at EI from another angle it is actually a claim that everything that planted tank folk have done since 10,000BC was EI because it was about adjustments. I and only I find EI to be utterly one sided and nurturing that kind of mindset.

If your plants are pearling you are doing well. But address the filter issue. If your tank is not overstocked you can actually remove the filter. Look at the plants as the center of everything - including fighting algae. Here's a full theory how to do it right: Super clean water, healthy filter, good water movement, moderate CO2, as little ferts in the water as possible, rich substrate. Done. The tank below was done that way, care to do anything differently?









Maybe you just want to do things the way everybody does them because there is no clear info on how to do anything else. Ever noticed that on every planted tank forum, English or not, EI and PPS are the only pinned posts that describe how to do things from zero? Similar to a Coca Cola advertisement which I am convinced is better than drinking water. Anyway - at least keep the forgotten rule #1 of EI - "adjust". If you go down that road you will end up doing what ADA is doing - using rich substrate. Which is what the latest form of EI is - "EI with AquaSoil", oh my. And if one day after long term adjustments you find that you have a beautiful healthy tank with N=1 and P=0.1 thank EI for that. Who else? The little Amano man will smile. He was right at the end. But we still don't like him too much.


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## Cneon

> One thing you mentioned - injecting CO2 in your canister.


I said I went from inline to powerhead misting. I was using an inline diffuser placed in the outflow of my canister:









CO2 never entered my canister. I know better than that, but I can see how you interpreted "feeding into that" in that light. Poor choice of words on my part. I just felt that with decreased flow water flow, the CO2 rate would fluctuate over time (lower pressure, in my mind, meant poorer mixing of the CO2 in the chamber of the diffuser, which meant slightly different levels of CO2 saturation over time).



> (same as BBA, the grey fluffy stuff on your anubias)


That was not a photograph of my anubias. I found it online to say that was the kind of algae that is not present on my leaves. I just used that photograph to state that's what I think of when I think of BBA. I do not see a resemblance between the two photos at all, in all honesty. However, I do know I have stag horn. That one is as clear as day.



> You will find out that biofiltration happens best at pH of about 8.0.


I just have no idea how to maintain this ideal without dumping chemicals into the tank (like pH "balancers.) Even with moderate CO2 (like you mentioned later in the post), the pH will inevitably sink to 6.5 (I am currently at 6.6 with the reduction in lighting and subsequent decrease in CO2). However, any amount of CO2 will lower the pH, and my tap water (which was aerated and left to sit out for two days) has a pH of 7.2 Can't inject CO2 and watch the pH go up to an ideal 8.



> The little Amano man will smile. He was right at the end. But we still don't like him too much.


 _I_ like Mr. Amano 

*In the end, though*, I agree I need to take note on the filter issue. I actually cleaned out my Marineland canister a few days ago. There was some brown nasties in there. I need to get at the Fluval next, but that thing is just a pain in the ass. Guaranteed mini flood whenever I try to open that sucker up


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## Zapins

A pH of 8 is not ideal for plants. Many nutrients become insoluble in water at this pH. I think you are looking for a happy medium here and 6-7 is that medium.


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## Cneon

*pH no, filters yes*

@ Zapins



> A pH of 8 is not ideal for plants.


That's what I was getting at  If for nothing else than the fact that I see healthy growth in my own aquarium at 6.4-6.6.

I will say this, though. I've been keeping planted aquariums for about 3 years now (I know, I'm a young'n compared to many of the keepers here.) However, I feel that I've picked up a little knowledge over those years. Sadly, though, I kept forgetting one thing in my years of aquarium maintenance: the pipes to my filters. I took Niko's advice and cleaned out my filters, but when I was jostling around the Fluval, I noticed some crud fly out of the outflow. I removed the pipes, got my drain snake out and cleared it with a nonabrasive scouring pad then flushed it with a gardend house. *YUCK.* Crap just kept spewing out of the thing. I repeated this 3 times before nothing came out. I've had that fluval for all 3 years, and used it on a few different tanks but never cleaned the pipes . Pretty disappointed with myself on that one. Hopefully, we'll see an overall improvement over the next couple of months.


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## Zapins

I think I may need to buy a drain snake or a new set of tubes. My tubes have never been cleaned, are filthy and crap always comes out of them when the filter is stopped and started again.


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## Silvering

Heh heh heh, it's a good thing I didn't take any pictures of what my canister sponges looked like when I cleaned them last week, pretty sure I would have gotten lashed with a wet noodle at the very least! And yup, I have BBA. I should try cleaning the hoses, too!


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## Yo-han

Zapins said:


> A pH of 8 is not ideal for plants. Many nutrients become insoluble in water at this pH. I think you are looking for a happy medium here and 6-7 is that medium.


A pH of 8 is far from ideal for plants indeed. Plants prefer the next pH per nutrient:

N : 6-7,5 
P : 6,5-7.5 en >9 
K : > 6 
S : >6 
C : >6,5 
Mg : >6.7. 
Fe : < 6 
Mn : <7 
B : 5-7 en >9 
Cu : 5-7 
Zn : 5-7 
Mo : >7

From this list we can see a pH between 6.5 and 7.2 would be ideal (Yes Niko, Amano has his pH right in the middle!). But this is all about the plants, not about your filter. The bacteria in your filter do indeed prefer a much higher pH. But if you raise the pH, your plants will have it more difficult to take up all the nutrients. Again, lets take a look at Amano. He lowers the pH during the day with CO2, when plants are most active till somewhere in the ideal range. And at night he shuts off CO2 and aerates the aquarium by raising the lily pipes. What happens is the pH rises, bacteria get more active and at the same time he provides extra oxygen to the bacteria so the bacteria have plenty of oxygen to do their job. IMO best of both worlds!

So by doing this you take care of the bacteria by providing them plenty of oxygen and the optimal pH range. In return they will help you reducing a vary large variety of organics and other algae inducing substances. And you provide CO2 and the optimal pH range for your plants when they need it the most, during the day!

For anyone reading this: this does not take away the fact that fertilizers/nutrients aren't important. In fact it is the opposite, without providing your plants with all the nutrients they need (whether it comes from the substrate a la Amano, or from the water column a la Tom Barr, Alfred Redfield, Dupla etc.) they will not grow very well. They may grow vary fast but when they miss one element, they produce more organics sugars etc. and leach them into the water, and algae feed of these substances. Moral of this story, filtration is as important as are nutrients, not more, not less! Balance everything and you'll master algae!


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## BruceF

Great post Johan!


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