# Echinodorus ID



## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

I grow a lot of echinodorus species emmeresed and have most of them labeled. 
I bought this plant as Echinodorus Osiris but I have a feeling its something else. 
The new leaves have red splotches which dissapear with age. The stems are long about 20-40cm to the leaf. any help would be great
first pic is close up of new leaf









second is of mother pant









and here are some of the young plants


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## Rony1107 (Dec 25, 2009)

PM'd you


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## Daniel Falck (Feb 18, 2011)

Yep, not _E_. x _osiris_ - even though it can sometimes have spots.
Quite a few _Echinodorus_ have spots.
If it had round (terete) leaf petioles, I'd immidiately say _E. grandiflorus_. But since that is not the case (if I see right from the pics), I might go for _E._ 'Rosé' - a child of _grandiflorus_ by crossing.
Do you have a pic of a flower stalk? I have a feeling that this is not even 'Rosé' but a _cordifolius_ hybrid (with triangular cross-section of petioles)...


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

That looks to me like a plant labeled as "Echinodorus cordifolius" in the botanical garden Berlin, also cultivated in the botanical garden Göttingen (Germany) as "E. cordifolius ssp. fluitans". 
Probably the same cultivated plant, with large blotches on young leaves, is depicted as Echinodorus fluitans in Rataj's Echinodorus revision from 2004. 
Compared with what I believe is typical E. cordifolius, the petiole tissue of the B.G. Berlin "cordifolius" is softer (and much softer than E. grandiflorus). Petioles triangular in cross section (as Daniel mentions), somewhat ridged. Also the peduncle is triangular (petioles and peduncles terete in typical E. cordifolius and E. grandiflorus). I didn't find pellucid markings in the leaves. Inflorescences branched, decumbent and always with plantlets, as in E. cordifolius. I didn't find ripe fruits. It appears to me like something between E. cordifolius and E. paniculatus.


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## Daniel Falck (Feb 18, 2011)

And to confuse the matters, _E. cordifolius_ ssp. _fluitans_ sold by Tropica is a hybrid, too. According to our study, it is a cross between _E. longiscapus_ & _E. grandiflorus_.

It's interesting that Lehtonen & I didn't find any _paniculatus _hybrids in our recent DNA study (which doesn't mean that there aren't any around).


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Daniel Falck said:


> And to confuse the matters, _E. cordifolius_ ssp. _fluitans_ sold by Tropica is a hybrid, too. According to our study, it is a cross between _E. longiscapus_ & _E. grandiflorus._


One of several surprising findings in Samuli & Your study! But probably I don't know the plant Tropica actually sells as "E. cordifolius ssp. fluitans" (only the watercolor pic from Tropica). Is it a plant looking more like somewhat from grandiflorus group, than cordifolius? Suitable for tanks? Do You have a photo?



> It's interesting that Lehtonen & I didn't find any _paniculatus _hybrids in our recent DNA study (which doesn't mean that there aren't any around).


Was a plant looking like that from AQUANZ included?


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## Daniel Falck (Feb 18, 2011)

Well, the plant looks more like a cordifolius... though with some characters that throw one really off the course! Submersed leaves are rather narrow elliptic... more like the pics of the young palaefolius or something. The plant stayed like that for a year or two and then decided to grow out of my 63 l tank. 

I might have some pics on the other computer... can't do them now for 2 weeks as I'm off for a trip.

I don't think that we had any plants that look exactly like the one of AQUANZ.


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

WOW cheers for all the helpful responses. 
Im currently converting one plant to submersed growth will post some pics when it gets new leaves.
thanks again


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Daniel Falck said:


> Well, the plant looks more like a cordifolius... though with some characters that throw one really off the course! Submersed leaves are rather narrow elliptic... more like the pics of the young palaefolius or something. The plant stayed like that for a year or two and then decided to grow out of my 63 l tank.


Thank You for the infos! I'd say, the curious Tropica-"fluitans" is one of the cases where a cultivar name would be the best solution.

@AQUANZ: OK, let's see; I had the "Berlin-cordifolius" a short time submerged, it developed rather narrow leaves and long petioles, I removed it before it grew emersed leaves. In a large tank in the botanical garden Berlin I've seen it growing out of the water, with very long petioles.


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

here are some pic of flower stem and flowers


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

and if anyone can ID this second Echinodorus species too that would be great 

It has a very broad leaf with very slight red blotches


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

if you look back to page one I added flower pics of the first ech.


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## Daniel Falck (Feb 18, 2011)

Beautiful specimens of _Echinodorus_ AQUANZ!

The first plant, after seeing the flower pics, looks a lot like a hybrid of cordifolius & grandiflorus. Especially, if the stem is holding itself up like that. The number of stamens suggest cordifolius more... but the robustness of the stalk, the branches & shorter pedicels + wide petals suggest grandiflorus to me.

The second plant looks a bit like a hybrid between cordifolius & floribundus. Do you have again pictures of the flower stalk & flowers?

I might not be able to reply for a few weeks now. Hope this have helped so far!


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

wow thanks daniel I have only just gotten into growing plants emmersed and finding it fun. 
Will post flower stalk on 2nd plant.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Hello AQUANZ,
also the inflorescences and flowers of Echinodorus No. 1 look like the above described B.G.Berlin-"cordifolius". I believe it's the same plant. But the B.G.Berlin-"cordifolius" has inflorescences bending / laying down soon. Inflorescence stalk (lowest part, between base and 1st flower whorl, = peduncle) has triangular cross section, with distinct edges. Also Your plant?


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

Yes the 2nd plant is mine also. So you believe they are the same plant? The 2nd plant has a lot wider leaves and a much smoother and softer leaf compared to the first one.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

AQUANZ said:


> Yes the 2nd plant is mine also. So you believe they are the same plant?


Sorry, my posting was unclear. I meant I believe Your 1st Ech is very likely the same stuff as the above described odd "cordifolius" from Botanical Garden Berlin that I know, because it looks like this plant. But Your 2nd Echinodorus is apparently something different (looking a bit like hybrid cordifolius x floribundus, as Daniel mentions). 
Do You find the features of the Berlin-"cordifolius" I stated in my last post (triangular peduncle, inflorescence hanging down soon, not staying upright) in Your 1st Echinodorus?

Btw., the species names Daniel mentioned are up-to-date taxonomically and have partly a different meaning than the names used in the hobby and trade:
-Echinodorus grandiflorus: includes the (true) E. argentinensis and E. floridanus, doesn't mean the "E. grandiflorus" with very broad leaves known in the hobby. Leaves rather elongate, not really heart-shaped, petioles very long.

__
https://flic.kr/p/3313977171
-Echinodorus floribundus: means a plant that is mostly called E. grandiflorus in the hobby. Huge one, with round deeply heart-shaped leaves. Identical to E. grandiflorus ssp. aureus. http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/izhbgNBsKFnnOiPs_r2vgw


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## AQUANZ (Apr 30, 2011)

UPDATE!

So this is the plant from the first pic.
Its has been growing submersed for a few months now. 
new leaf (look how red it is compared to the zenkeri red!)










older mature leaf.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Hello AQUANZ,
the submerged leaves with large blotches look like these of the odd "Berlin-cordifolius" that I mentioned above, and they confirm my meaning that the latter is the same.
Again my question: how do the petioles of the emersed leaves and the lowest part of the inflorescences (stem between base and 1st whorl) look in cross section? Rather triangular? Could You make photos of sections?

Btw.
German journal "Aqua Planta", issue 3-1981. On the cover a photo of Echinodorus spec. with the collection number AdG 416 (AdG = Arie de Graaf). According to the article of A. de Graaf in this issue (about chromosome counts) the plant was collected by H.C.D. de Wit in Cameroon(!). The pics show a large flower and emersed leaves looking virtually identical to them in Your pic:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8396/plnnt.jpg
And I mean it's likely that also the E. spec. AdG 416 is identical to the "Berlin-cordifolius". It may be an Echinodorus form that is widespread in culture as tropical ornamental in ponds etc., also naturalized (e.g. Cameroon).


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

p.s.
The flower in the Aqua Planta pic of Echinodorus spec. AdG 416 has 18 stamens.
I'll look for my pics of the "Berlin-cordifolius" and post them.


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