# Minimalist El Natural?



## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Hello all! I'm new to the hobby and have spent the past month reading about the wide array of planted tank approaches. 

I really want to getting started, but as each day goes by I run into conflicting information which makes it tough.

Goals:

I'd like a open top 2-3ft wide rimless tank. I want to aim for low-tech / low light (no co2) and minimal fertilization. 

The tank stocking should be minimalist with a basic carpet. Plants should have small foliage to give the impression of "big size" in a smaller package. 

I'd like a center piece of wood that extends high past the tank edge. 

As for fish, small schooling fish and maybe shrimp would work. 

Questions:

1) Limitations: Every NPT guide seems to call for heavily planting on day 1. Is this primarily to reduce nitrates/ammonia in the water? What if I coupled the tank with a pre-seeded filter from another tank? Would I be able to setup the tank in a minimalist fashion? 

2) Once a tank is heavily planted dirtied aquarium, wouldn't removing (most) of those plants create a mess? How does one re-scape a dirtied aquarium? 

3) I'd consider going with specialized substrate for planted tanks, but hate the idea of having to dose the tank with ferts every other day. I'm worried that I will have to leave or travel for a few days and my creation will suffer. 

4) All of the minimalist tanks i've seen with full carpets use CO2. Is it possible in a low-tech tank? 

Thanks in advance for looking at this post and my apologies if these questions are repeats.


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Hey, I can see what your looking to do, large plant biomass is the backbone of dirt in an aquarium.
However:
1: your right a seeded filter should help a great deal. The heavily planted from the beginning will sort out those issues faster. Achievable with a lot of fast growing stems and floaters.

2: It is a messy job rescaping however plants like bacopa don't create a big root system so they can be pulled out easily enough. Your heavy rooters like amazon sword and blue stricta make a huge mess due to large roots.

3: high maintenance tanks are a pest if you have have to leave them.

4: I haven't attempted carpet so I don't know if its fully plausible however I'll be attempting a carpet in my 20gal to see if it is.

I am not the best person to give info I have had a fair amount of issues with my 40gal. I was too impatient.. Patience is key with these style tanks. I'm sure someone will pick up what I missed. Good luck keep us posted!


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

I believe the idea of planting heavily on day 1 is to combat algae growth, as there is a lot of nutrients in the water from the soil and if there are not enough plants to use them, algae will instead. So yes, you can start with minimal plants, but you will have to take care of the algae manually until the plants catch up.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC!

Yes, the heavy planting at the start is to absorb excess nutrients and prevent algae. But nothing says the plants must be permanent. For example, you could accomplish this by putting a bunch of hornwort or frogbit in the tank until it stabilizes, then take out the plants you don't want. Both of these are not rooted in the substrate, so there is no mess.

Some of the classic carpeting plants of high tech plants do not thrive in Walstad tanks. But others do. Some examples are the full size baby tears _Hemianthus glomeratus_ (still a small plant with tiny leaves), marselia, some types of hair grass, and dwarf sagittaria. I've grown all of these without CO2 or high light. Try searching the Plant Finder by selecting the foreground option. There are about 6 species listed that are "easy". Any of these would work.

I've never found it particularly messy to move plants in a soil substrate tank. Don't try to do too much at once, and remove the plants slowly. If removing a species with a large root system, just pull the plant up enough to get an inch or two of roots, then cut off the roots remaining in the substrate. And you can put an extra filter on the tank with mechanical media only to clean up any cloudiness.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Mezuri: 
Interesting note on heavily rooted plants. It looks like I will have to lean on the advice of this forum for suggestions on plants when i'm ready.

Michael: 
It looks like I have a few options for grass, which is great. At what point would I add them to the tank? During the initial setup or after it's established? 

Thanks for the tip on removing plants in a dirt aquarium. Is it possible to plant also? 

All: 
Thanks for the suggestion on a floating initial plant stock. When would I know the right time to remove the initial plant stock? (measurements? algae growth?) 

I have a seeded canister filter which will help the entire process.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

I was told that a dirtied tank would only last a few months before losing its nutrients. Sigh, the more I read about ferts and co2, the more overwhelming this all seems. 
I'm ok with C02 but dont want to be held liable to daily ferting due to possible 4-6 day trips out of state every few months. Is there a low-maintenance happy medium somewhere?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

bluskeee said:


> I was told that a dirtied tank would only last a few months before losing its nutrients.


Untrue! The nutrients in the soil do eventually run out, usually in 6 to 12 months. But as the nutrients are depleted, the clay and organic material in the soil retain their ability to absorb nutrients from the water and release them to plant roots.

Every time you feed the fish or change water you are adding nutrients to the system. In Walstad tanks we feed generously, and keep healthy populations of snails, shrimp, and other detritivores to rapidly convert any extra fish food into plant nutrients. These nutrients are absorbed directly by the plants, or sequestered in the substrate until a plant root comes along looking for them.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

To answer some of your other questions, Walstad tanks generally are stable and mature at 3 to 6 months. At that time, start removing the floating temporary plants gradually. If you see some algae, stop or put some back in. If you are testing the water, you want ammonia and nitrite to be zero. Small amounts of nitrates are acceptable, but you really want them at zero too. Nutrients belong in the substrate where algae cannot use them, not in the water.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Interesting. Thanks for the information. I'm now looking to order a GLA tank online now. While researching the substrate, I stumbled on to "mineralized soil" mixtures/formulas. Then the confusion started up again. From everything I've read it looks like fertilization is inevitable even in low tech tanks. If I go El Natural then I think its best for the natural/forest look. Thank you.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Wait a second - Wouldnt the canister filter neutralize and clean the tank stripping the plants from obtaining proper nutrients? I take it you are recommending using it for bio filtration in the beginning, then mechanical filtration once the tank is settled? Thank you


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## Mezuri (Dec 17, 2012)

Only if you have carbon pad/carbon media in the canister will it strip organic materials and co2


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

bluskeee said:


> IFrom everything I've read it looks like fertilization is inevitable even in low tech tanks. If I go El Natural then I think its best for the natural/forest look. Thank you.


I never fertilize any of my tanks--I just feed the fish.

With proper plant selection, Walstad tanks can be done in any style.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

bluskeee said:


> Wait a second - Wouldnt the canister filter neutralize and clean the tank stripping the plants from obtaining proper nutrients? I take it you are recommending using it for bio filtration in the beginning, then mechanical filtration once the tank is settled? Thank you


The plants will absorb the nutrients before they get to the filter. Fill the filter with biomedia, add a little mechanical media if you need it, don't use any carbon. After the tank is mature, the filter largely serves the function of circulating the water, with the biomedia as a fail-safe if something goes wrong in the tank.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Thank you!


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

I really like this tank (one of the many that actually brought me here)


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## Chumley (Mar 15, 2011)

After rereading this thread, I think I know what you meant by saying "minimalist" now. That pic you linked, they call that style Iwagumi. I recognized that pic immediately from another thread in another forum that I closely follow.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168992&page=72

On that same page of that link i just showed, there is another tank he is setting up using mosses and Anubias petites. One could probably set something up like that using El Natural style but for a Iwagumi aka minimalist tank, just read through that thread to learn what it takes to make something like that.


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## Bardus71 (Sep 29, 2011)

Hey Bluskee, the tank above has a few telltale signs of high lighting & pressurised CO2 use in its compact growth of the groundcovers, and the pearling/bubbles of gas forming on the plants.

The thing with groundcover plants is that they like med-high lighting to keep them spreading across the substrate. If they don't get this, they may grow upward. Forgive me if I've missed it, but I don't think you have lighting or other specs for the tank (eg 4' tank with single 40W T8 tube.) The more intense the light, the better your groundcovers will form a carpet, but there is more a chance of algae as well. If this happens, you can keep the intensity, but decrease the hours that your light is on. There is always some sort of fiddling you can try anyway. You can almost double the amount of light from a tube if it has very good reflectors.

For a low light tank, I would try a Marsilea spp. first, then progressively with more demand for light, Stauro, Glosso, Blyxa to name a few. There are a few small crypts that I am unsure of that might be suitable as well.

When setting up the tank initially, it might be worth waiting out for the tank to settle before adding fish to it, but the initial ammonia spike will give the plants a kick start as they use the ammonia for food (and thus filter the water), and floating hornwort or something as suggested may act as an insurance policy that if there is too much nutrient in the water, they will soak it up and avoid an algae outbreak.

Anyways, keep asking questions here dude, where there is a will, there is a way.

Here is my attempt at a Blyxa carpet in a 4'NPT with 2x40W T8 globes, a heavy bioload (50 fish), and an Eheim 2215 as a filter.



Image link here: http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2107/img2829n.jpg

from this thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/80803-55g-npt-scape-newcastle-australia.html


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## Bardus71 (Sep 29, 2011)

Oh fudd! The image doesn't seem to work. Click on the space and it should take you to the image where it is hosted.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Chumley: You got it! Searching for that term helped me find additional tanks, but also led me to C02/Ferts. I have followed that thread as well. Do you have a link to the Mosses/Anubias Petite tank? 

Bardus: Great looking tank!Thanks for pointing out the signs of high lighting and co2. If compact growth for a carpet is too difficult to achieve then thats fine. You proved it can be done though with time and patience. 

Please dont get me wrong, I'm OK with going the Co2 route, but not terribly excited to go with daily ferts and 30-50% weekly water changes. 

I just need solid guidance on which route to go based on those requirements. If the answer is " or "this style of tank would not work out well" then i'll have some closure and begin exploring other options. Perhaps a simple jungle is the way to go!


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm also considering a Riparium as well. I love the look


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## Chumley (Mar 15, 2011)

The moss/Anubias tank is on the same page of the link I showed, its just not shown filled with water yet.

I think you might be picking up on the EI method when mentioning large weekly water changes and daily ferts. There are some who would challenge the idea that you need to go the EI route just as there are some who challenge the idea of not being able to grow a nice lush carpet using El Natural method.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

There's no crucial need to remove ammonia with water changes or filtration during the initial setup. Unless maybe your substrate has a very high organic content. Walstad doesn't recommend it, I've never done it, and as far as I can tell it's just a cross-over of common practice from other areas in the hobby.

Once the tank matures and stabilizes a bit any algae you have from the initial setup (should mostly be diatoms) will recede on its own.

Planting densely in the beginning will give you a nice root mass in your substrate as early as possible. Roots help keep the soil 'healthy' which makes it easier for other plants to root. Anaerobic substrate is probably the biggest concern when working with soils. Also a reason to select plants that produce larger root systems.

On a 2-3ft tank I would use a small powerhead or something just for a bit of water circulation.

I personally do not like to use anything that agitates the surface on El Natural tanks. My plants pearling tells me that there's a notable amount of CO2 that can accumulate without injection.

Good plants for the type of setup you want would be:

dwarf sag (mentioned in my PM reply)

Echinodorus tennelus (mentioned in my PM reply)

Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis was one I was considering for my tank. I've heard good things, but never grown it myself.

Pruning moss to stay low can sort of simulate the low-grown HC carpet you see in a lot of iwagumi setups

Anubias

Cryptocoryne parva (this one will grow very slow, don't expect to build a whole carpet of it)

Those are just some of the more 'iwagumi'-like plants.


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## kerrigan007 (Apr 1, 2013)

qwe123 said:


> I believe the idea of planting heavily on day 1 is to combat algae growth, as there is a lot of nutrients in the water from the soil and if there are not enough plants to use them, algae will instead. So yes, you can start with minimal plants, but you will have to take care of the algae manually until the plants catch up.


I think you are right. On my three Walstad tanks, only one started fully planted, and it's the only one that is not overunned by algae in the first weeks.


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## bluskeee (Apr 29, 2013)

Thank you for the great advice guys. I am considering doing a riparium style tank, but also considering running dirt and perhaps a plant or two down low.


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