# Censorship - What happened to my thread???



## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

Censorship is a shame.

I recently complained on APC about a particular on-line Plant Supplier and their bad service and inability to respond. I posted facts, not emotions - with the exception of the end result and the fact that I had to go to AMEX to resolve the problem. Well, the thread was removed.

I tried to contact this vendor three time over e-mail and left two voice mails. Only the initial e-mail was responded to indicating they would resolve the problem and then I heard nothing.

When the vendor received the chargeback he called me and left me a voice mail (about a month ago) and I called him back the same day, only to get his voicemail - so I left him a message explaining what I had done to get in touch with him, what the problem was... and he never called me back.

Three+ months later from the initial purchase (today) I *FINALLY* get an e-mail from the vendor telling me that he was referred to the post and that "It does not/did not need to be this way."

So - setting my complaint with him aside, I am pretty upset that APC finds the need to provide censorship - or is the fear of another Compuserve/APD/Pet-whatevertheirnameusedtobe.com working its way to the administratorship of APC?

I mean - we share information freely and dispute methods, but when someone posts a bad experience with a vendor... we kill it?

Just disappointed, that's all.

- Jeff


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Jeff,

If you were the administrator/owner of this site wouldn't you be concerned?


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## John S (Jan 18, 2005)

No if he got taken on his order other people should know about....


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

taekwondodo said:


> So - setting my complaint with him aside, I am pretty upset that APC finds the need to provide censorship - or is the fear of another Compuserve/APD/Pet-whatevertheirnameusedtobe.com working its way to the administratorship of APC?
> - Jeff


You guessed it Jeff. Cencorship is a shame I agree. Unfortunately Art has been threatened with lawsuits in the past due to similar posts. I do feel your pain though. I have some experiences I'd like to share too, if anything to keep them from happening to someone else.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'll leave this up to the site administrator, but suffice it to say for now that there were very good reasons that the thread in question was removed. I'll suggest that a PM be sent to you explaining the circumstances.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

Emc2 said:


> Jeff,
> 
> If you were the administrator/owner of this site wouldn't you be concerned?


Yes, IF there was there was slander or libel. I was neither slanderous our libelous. But are we only supposed to point out our experiences with good vendors (which I also do)? Aren't we as a buying community supposed to help each other?

And should APC be intimidated when ever a negative (and not blown out of proportion) experience is brought up?

Like I said, just disappointed.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> I'll leave this up to the site administrator, but suffice it to say for now that there were very good reasons that the thread in question was removed. I'll suggest that a PM be sent to you explaining the circumstances.


I guess a heads-up/PM would have been nice - I was surprised the thread was gone because the vendor referenced it and I wanted to see what the difference between my amex complaint was and how long I waited to post (it was at least several weeks).

And ever since the big blow-up with the gang over at APD with PWH I see the sensitivity over this thing...I mean, I get it... But I don't think I came across aggressive or bashing - just stating the facts and my disappointment.

And, for me, it all started when this vendor was the only ones with R. Macrandra wide-leaf I could find (and I still don't have any  ).

- Jeff


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

3 words: Google in China 

Can only post the good stuff. Don't want to irate people. That is the bottom line. As for the bad stuff, I guess it all depends on how you state your opinions. 'Course then this brings up the question of just how bad is bad. How slanderous is slanderous?! Just more matters of differing opinions. So, if one cannot please everybody, might as well leave no exceptions. 

I do understand your situation. As always, I think the best way to settle a dispute is by phone or by private messaging. Going public is just a double-edged sword, IMHO. 

Good luck and hope things will be resolved for you, if they haven't


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Maybe some brave soul will start a forum for just these types of complaints and assume the risk for all us posters who just want to share our experiences. 

Life must be scary for site owners these days especially when you can be held criminally responsible for posts that are simply "annoying" rather than just civilly responsible for "slanderous" posts.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

Emc2 said:


> Maybe some brave soul will start a forum for just these types of complaints and assume the risk for all us posters who just want to share our experiences.


Well, I certainly do not want to put the forum at risk - I was getting APD the day the world over at APD exploded and saw what happened. So I was specifically carefull putting my position forward....

I just don't know how to let everyone else know about this and let them to make their own decisions...!


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## RTR (Oct 28, 2005)

SFAIK, this is a privately owned site, and although we may be registered members, we have no democracy or rights beyond those granted by the owners/administrators. Considering the state of the world and relatively recent history of the web, I think removing threads for whatever reason is fully with the stated autority of the admins here, and in their defense, such actions are wise.

If you find that dictatorial, you do have the option of not participating in/on this site. It is not the right of any individual member to decide what the forum will or will not allow, or be liable for.


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## fish7days (Jul 30, 2005)

I can understand that you had a bad experience as that does actually happen to some of us, and also appreciate your desire to let other members know. However, this is a moderated forum, and we are all very well aware of the fact that moderators have certain responsibilities to ensure the well being and longevity of the forum, which includes censorship, as expressed in the user manual to the forum. I think it is a case of balancing the value we receive from the existence and the use of the forum, with the aggravation we have to put up with when a vendor does not perform. Personally, if I had to choose between the two, I'd vote for the value the forum brings to me before risking it by venting about a particular instance, or insisting on my rights of free speech. Maybe a poll with a few basic voting choices would work, such as: What experience have you had with ABC Co? Good, Neutral, Bad, and see what happens.

I have purchased items from EBay sellers with less than 100% feedback, because I believe that one instance, even if it is their fault, does not automatically make them a bad seller. I would be more careful, but would not completely discard them.

These are just my own views, and anyone is welcome to disagree. Don't expect me start an argument though.......


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Taekwondo, I'm sure you wouldn't but there is real risk involved irregardless of how artfully you phrase your complaint. This forum owner has chosen not to assume that type of risk. That is his choice and should not be second guessed imho. 

btw, I meant libelous.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

Emc2 said:


> Taekwondo, I'm sure you wouldn't but there is real risk involved irregardless of how artfully you phrase your complaint. This forum owner has chosen not to assume that type of risk. That is his choice and should not be second guessed imho.
> 
> btw, I meant libelous.


I agree with all said above - private forum, et. al. And I intend to participate, and the Mods have the right to censor.

I guess my real gripe here is that it's a sad world where someone who offers bad service can influence the world in such a way...instead of doing the right thing - resolving the situation quickly and efficiently*.

Heck, if it were my company providing bad service and someone posted about it, I would bend over backwards to make things right. What an opportunity to improve my customer service and show how good of a vendor I could be!

*Just so everyone knows, the vendor did offer _finally today_ to make things right and offer me "store credit", albeit three months later. Now I just want my money back.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Folks,

I understand how you feel. Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to post the proper response. Suffice it to say that the initial post was _temporarily_ removed to give it further scrutiny based on a conversation with the company involved. I will explain this further later.

I do want to state that APC is about the free exchange of information and ideas. I am very well aware of the law involved. This site does not succumb to intimidation or fear of litigation. However, we must be fair to all parties and follow certain procedures to try to make sure that this is the case. The temporary removal of the thread in question is part of this procedure.

I do appreciate your patience and understanding while we sort out this delicate situation.

As always, thanks for supporting APC.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

Art,

I apologize if I put you in a poor spot with the initial post and I hope I didn't - I did not mean to. I was just trying to share my experience of bad service (or lack of any service) with the rest of the gang.

As for re-posting the initial post, it no longer matters as it became clear today with some exchanges with "the vendor" and I won't come to a amicable resolution and I should just consider my money and time lost what it is: an education.

I also apologize for forgetting this is a privately owned forum and getting on a rant - I was upset at them and vented here when I noticed the post was missing. Bad form on my part.

Keep up the good work, and I'll behave  

- Jeff


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## doug105 (Oct 28, 2005)

Why not post it over on usenet..... rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants? That's more 
anarchy than democracy, but it might do.

Doug N


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

This is an interesting topic. What can you really say about a business before someone gets sued?

First and foremost, I totally repsect the right of the owner(s)/admin(s) in whatever decision they make on their private website. I find APC to be a very sound website in that aspect, and enjoy that facet very much.

However, when business come into play (read as: money/goods exchanging hands), things take a significant turn. I have no idea what the original problem was, or who the company in question was, but if it was a sponsor of this site, then the poster should have the full right to complain on this site. Now blatant disregard for respect in any case should not be tolerated, but legitamate concerns should and must be addressed.

My career is in the retail business--if not for my customers, I have no paycheck. I live and breathe their content, not because of the money, but because I enjoy it. I enjoy the rewards I get in the community for the top quality goods I sell, only because I love what I'm doing and am just as much a part of it as those who choose to buy from me. Those rewards are smiles, thanks, and "we'll see you next week!" In my opinion (and a fact of my life), not being able to contact a consumer about something is disregard for the consumer. The burden lies upon the service/merchandise provider. Anything less is simply unacceptable.

If you have a business, it should be registered with the Better Business Bureau. I've heard far too many complaints about aquatic shops to place trust. Frankly, I'd really like to know what the "deal" really is with not being able to resolve problems. I suspect that the business owners are not prepared to deal with customers adequately. Bad move. In my line of work, there may be negatives, but every customer complaint will be resolved.


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## dkfennell (Apr 19, 2005)

If I am thinking of the correct thread, I believe I responded in defense of the vendor. However, if the vendor is threatening litigation of that thread, I would be very interested: I would simply stop doing business with them. I think the adminstrators would be best served, when they decide to pull a thread, to state that they received a threat of litigation, or whatever, from the entity or person doing the threatening.

Threats of litigation, in my mind (and I'm a litigator), rather than responding to the facts in the thread, indicate a certain way of doing business that I would not want to endorse. Why didn't the vendor respond in the forum? After all you have sponsors, that get complaints in the very forums they pay for, and they are expected to respond, not sue.

If I am remembering the right thread, the vendor in question should very much want to have the thread disappear, because the facts alleged showed very poor customer relations, and shoddy business practices. If the vendor can't respond and at least deny them in the forum, I suspect they are true. And remember I am one of the only ones in that thread who defended the vendor. But, I won't anymore if this is how the vendor does business.

BTW, there is a danger to the site in bowing to threats of litigation. If you censor based on claims of libel, you are opening yourself to charges that you endorse whatever is left on the site. Some think it's better just to act as a clearing house and let the supposedly injured party make his response in the forum. If you don't want to go that far, at least explain which vendor is threatening litigation without responding to the allegations made in the forum.

Darrell Fennell


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## jrIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I agree with dkfennel here. It has been my experiance the those that threaten law suit have the most to be ashamed of. I respect a vendor who airs his side and lets the chips fall. To hide the issue does nobody any good. I also think I know who the vendor is and was considering placing and order, but no more.


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm curious how the "Reviews" section fits into this discussion? I wonder if this is a more neutral spot to rate a company. There are certainly a couple companies that are not doing too well over there. The nice thing about this feature is that you can see patterns in company service rather than getting an impression based solely on one person's experience and the ensueing argument about who said and did or didn't do something. Maybe it would be better to have all of these types of responses limited to that area. 

Bill


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