# Starting a fertalizing rutine



## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

I am aware that rapid changes to an aquarium is hard on fish. When I get my ferts from Greg Watson should I immediately dump the required amount into the tank or do I need to add them slowly and build up to the concentrations that I need?


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

frozenoak said:


> I am aware that rapid changes to an aquarium is hard on fish. When I get my ferts from Greg Watson should I immediately dump the required amount into the tank or do I need to add them slowly and build up to the concentrations that I need?


How much of what are you planning on adding?

Bill


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

Into a 60 gallon tank with about 3" of substrate (a mix of gravel and plant substrate);

KNO3, 7grams
KH2PO4, 0.5g
K2SO4, 3.5g
CaCl2, 18g
MgSO4.7H20, 10g
CMS+B with extra iron, 0.35g

Dosed every other day. Macros and micros on opposing days. 50% water change on the weekend.

This is all subject to change so if I am completely off please let me know.


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

frozenoak said:


> Into a 60 gallon tank with about 3" of substrate (a mix of gravel and plant substrate);
> 
> KNO3, 7grams
> KH2PO4, 0.5g
> ...


KNO3 and KH2PO4 levels seem fine. As for the CSM+B, - make sure you are following the instructions for making a liquid solution (I overdosed this once but everything survived even the shrimp which are most sensitive). Why are you dosing the other products? You sound like you're following an EI plan which doesn't call for anything else usually???????? I assume from your dosing schedule that you are doing CO2 and 2.5 plus wpg.

Good luck, Bill


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

frozenoak said:


> Into a 60 gallon tank with about 3" of substrate (a mix of gravel and plant substrate);
> 
> KNO3, 7grams
> KH2PO4, 0.5g
> ...


That seems like a lot to drop into the tank 3x a week! You probably have about 50g of actual water in the tank. According to the Fertilator, each dose would give you:

~23ppm of NO3
~1.8ppm of PO4
~23ppm of K
~35ppm of Ca
~5ppm of Mg

These seems more like weekly totals to me unless you have a lot of light over the tank! I would cut back on the KNO3 and KH2PO4 dosing. 2gm of KNO3 (6.5ppm) and 0.25gm of KH2PO4 (0.92ppm) 3x a week. I probably would not use the K2SO4 at all unless I used it at the water change.

Unless you have really soft water you probably don't need to add the Ca and Mg to the tank either.


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

I'm glad you asked about the ferts then. I do have a lot of light (about 4.3wpg) and I am running pressurized CO2. My watter is very hard (KH 180ppm, GH 300ppm) so I guess that means I don't need the Ca and Mg. So now I am at;

KNO3, 2gm
KH2PO4, 0.25gm
Dosed 3X a week 

CMS+B with extra iron (How much of this should I use?)
Dosed as a liquid on days opposite to macros. 

and the fish will be cool with this?

Thanks, 
dale

P.S. I don't have a single test kit. What test kits should I be looking at getting?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I think most folks mix up 1 tablespoon of CSM+B with 250ml of water and dose according to tank size. I dose 15ml of this solution in my 75g tank with about 2.75wpg. 

As far as test kits, it is very important that you get a good pH and KH kit if you are using CO2. Some will suggest you get a NO3 and PO4 kit also. The beauty of EI is that you don't need to test your NO3 and PO4 levels. You already know that you are adding a certain amount of each fertilizer each week. This amount is over and above what the tank should be using for the week. Half of what remains at week's end is taken from the tank with the 50% water change and you simply start over adding the ferts again. 

You can always add slightly more of KNO3 and KH2PO4 than recommended, there is no set amount. Play with it and see how the plants grow. Just try and only change one thing at a time and give it a week or two to see results before you change something else.

The fish should be fine with your dosing...


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

MatPat said:


> The beauty of EI is that you don't need to test your NO3 and PO4 levels. &#8230;
> You can always add slightly more of KNO3 and KH2PO4 than recommended, there is no set amount. Play with it and see how the plants grow.


How do you proceed without test kits?

Thank you
Edward


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

You simply don't test. It's quite easy to not test.

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1

I believe you have referred to it as the dump and flush method many times Edward


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

Edward,

If you do a 50% water change every week then you can always estimate mathematically what the maximum levels are in the tank. You can do the math by hand or enter the formulas in a spreadsheet. 

For example if you start with a mythical dose of 10grams (for math simplicity)of something per week. You then divide that by 2 (50% water change) which equals 5. Then you're adding 10 again the second week = 15. After WC =7.5 then adding 10 = 17.5. After WC 17.5/2= 8.75 +10 =18.75/2=9.375+10=19.375/2= etc., etc. 

You can see from the formula that if you carry it out far enough you max out at just below twice the amount you dose at. The only other twist is that in the real world you'll be lower because of plant uptake but if you are dosing on the high side this doesn't become an issue.

Hope this helps, Bill

You can use the same mathematical ideas with other dosing and water change percentages but 50% water change seems like the simplest.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi MatPat
How does one know if more KNO3 or PO4 is needed?

Thank you
Edward


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

Edward, I am assuming (and hoping) that the look of the plants will tell you if you need to increase the amount of fertilizers. If this is incorrect someone please tell me.


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## |squee| (Feb 3, 2005)

I believe whether or not to add more KNO3/KH2PO4 depends very much on how fast you want growth to be, or how much minimum your plants need to grow at a "just-nice" rate so algae doesn't have a chance at growing.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Edward said:


> Hi MatPat
> How does one know if more KNO3 or PO4 is needed?
> 
> Thank you
> Edward


As you already know, EI dosing is based on dosing to excess, or more than the plants need based on uptake rates.

In your dosing method, you state that a good range for NO3 is in the 10-30ppm range and PO4 is in the 0.1-2ppm range. How hard is it keep your levels in this range without testing?

Since this was Frozenoak's thread, if you, feel this needs to be discussed more, why not move this part of the discussion to its own thread so we do not steal Frozenoak's thread?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

frozenoak said:


> I am aware that rapid changes to an aquarium is hard on fish. When I get my ferts from Greg Watson should I immediately dump the required amount into the tank or do I need to add them slowly and build up to the concentrations that I need?


Nope, add them right into the tank. I add the poweder directly, some dilute in water first, some make solutions and dose mls.

You can also use test kits and adjust EI accordingly to whatever the range of nutrients you like to target. No rule against that either.
I often do not listen to my test kits, I listen to my plants.
Then I go back when the plants are happy and see what levels things are at.

Before suggesting EI I suggested this about a decade ago:
http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml

Folks where more skittish about dosing, but more folks had trouble testing and using junky kits, did not calibrate the test kits etc.
You'll note the more conservative amounts also back then.

Folks already where doing water changes so using that to make dosing easier for their already existing routine made things much easier.

PPS can use Test kits of not, you can do large water changes with that method and you can also not test by doing that.

The main difference is that PPS uses solutions much like PMDD, EI typically uses dry teaspoon measurements except for Traces.

Otherwise they do the same thing and both can be done with or without water changes over extended peroids, with or without test kits and Excel spreadsheets.

You can easily use PPS's SS and PS etc for dosing EI.

PPS/EI and any dosing routine that produced good plant growth has excess nutrients levels for a given growth rate. Otherwise you'd have poor plant growth and algae.

If it's a little excess or a lot, it does not matter as the upper ranges for the nutrients are extremely high except CO2/NH4.

Plants make the best test kit anyway, I change my dosing routines based on them much more than a test kit reading.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> You can also use test kits and adjust EI accordingly to whatever the range of nutrients you like to target. No rule against that either.


_The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits 
by Tom Barr, 20050125

*Suggested EI test kits: * 
pH	Pinpoint pH monitor(much better), Red Sea low range(cheaper)
KH	Most all test kits are decent such as Tetra/Sera etc.
NO3	LaMott(much better), SeaChem(cheaper)
GH	Same as KH
Fe	Hach(much better), Sera or SeaChem(cheaper)
PO4	Hach(much better), SeaChem(cheaper)
K+	Aquarium Landscapes, Lamott_
References



plantbrain said:


> The main difference is that PPS uses solutions much like PMDD, EI typically uses dry teaspoon measurements except for Traces.
> Otherwise they do the same thing and both can be done with or without water changes over extended peroids, with or without test kits and Excel spreadsheets.


Can EI run high light aquarium with CO2 for a year without a water change?



plantbrain said:


> You can easily use PPS's SS and PF etc for dosing EI.


 EI does not include Ca, Mg and K2SO4 management. Please see abundant EI threads and http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml for reference.

Details









Thank you
Edward


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Again, since we have completely taken over Frozenoaks simple request for a fert routine thread, why don't you (Edward, a moderator of this site) move part of this thread so it can be discussed in more detail! You have done it in your PPS thread so it can be done. 

I would like to further discuss my experiences with the PPS and EI method, but will not do so in this thread. That is a discussion for a new thread and this one, I believe, has gotten out of context!

Edit - My apologies to Frozenoak for helping in the hijacking of your thread.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi MatPat
You are right. Here we have the new thread.

Edward


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

Hey Tom,

Have you written a book containing these ideas?


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

New problem... 

I just got my fert's from Gregg Watson but I haven't got the gram scale yet (my brother is somewhat of a procrastinator). Would someone be so kind as to break the EI method down for me in tsps please. I would like to dose the dry powders but if mixing with water is highly advantageous I guess I can do that. 

The tank I am dosing is a 60 gallon tank with an overflow. I am running an Ehime 2217 canister filter. Pressurized CO2 is still dialing in (I am aiming for 30ppm). With 4X65 watts compact florescent lights. I have about 3"of small gravel with Eco Complete and some Fluorite. My watter is very hard (KH 180ppm, GH 300ppm). I currently have only 4 otto's in the tank.

If someone could help me I would be extremely gratefully.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Here's a simple reply (hopefully, I though my last reply to your post was simple) and link for you 

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm

Download the calculator, it will allow you to put in grams and it will give you a reasonably close tsp/tbsp conversion.

I would start dosing dry since it is fairly easy and doesn't require weighing of the fertilizers,since you don't have the scale yet. If you want to dose the solutions, wait until you get the scale and make them. You may decide you like the ease of dosing dry or you may find you like the precision of dosing a liquid. It all depends on what you prefer.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

frozenoak said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> Have you written a book containing these ideas?


That's part of the BarrReport long term goal but somewhat more than just a routine.

There's plenty of history and post going pretty far back all over the web. 
I've done a number of suggestions from Marine plants, non CO2, Rec levels of Parameters, testing just about every single parameter a number of times, algae and bioassays, tweaking EI, EI, pissing and maoning about test kits and methods, PO4 and algae excess issues(every single one of them was proven wrong, yet everyone at the time said otherwise) and West Coast Lean versions, soil, no soil.

I hardly have merely one dosing routine method under my belt.
Been at it for 30 years and started working at a nice LFS when I was 7 till I was 11.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

I apologise MatPat if I offended. You did give a very simple and greatly appreciated answer the first time. However I did not have a way to convert the gms into tsps. That calculator was the catalyst. 

And I apologise to Tom if I offended. I am fully aware that you have numerous posts all over the net and are fully versed in all kinds of plant related topics. I have been researching this tank for 3 months or so and you (or someone referencing you) has what seem to be well informed and researched information that I was hoping I could find consolidated into one compact volume. I was simply looking for a consolidated printed volume of info that I could put on my book shelf that I could reference on occasion. I have as of recently looked at the Barr Report web site and I will subscribe as soon as funds come available (CO2 items cost more that I expected).

I want to take this time to thank both of you for the excellent and professional help you have supplied to me on this and several other threads.

Thank you,
dale


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

frozenoak said:


> New problem...
> 
> I just got my fert's from Gregg Watson but I haven't got the gram scale yet (my brother is somewhat of a procrastinator). Would someone be so kind as to break the EI method down for me in tsps please. I would like to dose the dry powders but if mixing with water is highly advantageous I guess I can do that.
> 
> ...


You can use PPS solutions and do it EI style or do it Test kit style, your choice there. Or you can dose with teaspoons etc. See MatPat's suggestions with the dosing calculator, makes figuring easy.

Your Tap ain't that bad(I had similar for several years with a GH of 450ppm +), main thing is to add enough CO2.

For your tank: 
KNO3: 1/2 teaspoon 2-3x a week
KH2PO4, 1/8 teaspoon 2-3x a week
SeaChem Flourish or I'd prefer TMG or a mix of both 3x a week, 10mls.

50% weekly water change

Add enough plants(as many as will fit, never wait for them to "grow in") from the start, add Amano shrimp, SAE's etc now.

Generally, if you have issues, it's the CO2, do not trust the test kits too much, watch the plants and look to keep them jamming and pearling well.

See what you think.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

One last question... I think

Does the CSM+B with extra iron have to be dosed as liquid? Or can I dose it dry as well. Also how much either wet or dry.


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Add enough plants(as many as will fit, never wait for them to "grow in") from the start, add Amano shrimp, SAE's etc now.


Sadly Tom... well maybe not so sadly  I had hoped that I could let what I have grow in. I don't have (haven't located yet) an LFS that knows plants (granted they may carry them, but they don't seem to know anything about them) and I am kind of skittish about buying from them. I guess my only course of action now is to buy what I can from the for sale or trade forum here on APC (suggestions greatly appreciated, see thread  Request for help selecting plants ) or from the store that doesn't know what they have. As if things weren't exciting enough already. 

Thanks for the help,
dale

P.S. I have had a brake out of green spot algae. Will the new ferts help with this or do I need more plants with the ferts?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

frozenoak said:


> I apologise MatPat if I offended. You did give a very simple and greatly appreciated answer the first time. However I did not have a way to convert the gms into tsps. That calculator was the catalyst.


No offense taken, I just tried to give a simple answer that was made not so simple by some of the responses. I'm glad the calculator helped. It has helped me alot over the past couple of years.

I may have some plants I could send out to you on Monday. I have a plant club meeting this coming Saturday and whatever does not go to the club members I would be more than happy to send your way! The only cost will be shipping. I really need to get rid of some of this stuff since it is taking over my tanks.

Good CO2 and PO4 levels should knock out the green spot algae on your glass. PO4 in the range of 1.5-2ppm should do the trick. How do I know my PO4 is high enough without testing? If the green spot stays away and the plants grow without stunting, I assume that it is high enough


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I mix up my CSM+B solution at the rate of 1 tablespoon in 250 ml of water. I add 15ml of this solution to my tank 3x a week opposite the PO4 additions. 

I have not dosed CSM+B dry to the tank so I cannot give any experience with it. However, according to the Fertilator on this site, you can add 1/8 tsp to get an iron level of about 0.11ppm. For this calculation, I figured your tank has a total volume of 50g of water.


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

Just before bed last night I dosed 1/2 teaspoon KNO3 and 1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4. Today I will dose 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B with extra iron (unless some one says I shouldn't). I will dose the KNO3 and KH2PO4 again tomorrow then the water change and start of the first whole cycle will happen on Saturday. When the scale gets here I will be dosing 2gm of KNO3 and .25 gm of KH2PO4. Any suggestions for dosing dry CSM+B by grams?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

frozenoak said:


> Just before bed last night I dosed 1/2 teaspoon KNO3 and 1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4. Today I will dose 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B with extra iron (unless some one says I shouldn't). I will dose the KNO3 and KH2PO4 again tomorrow then the water change and start of the first whole cycle will happen on Saturday. When the scale gets here I will be dosing 2gm of KNO3 and .25 gm of KH2PO4. Any suggestions for dosing dry CSM+B by grams?


I'll bet you will see a marked improvement in plant growth within a week or so!

As far as the CSM+B dry dosing, I would weigh the 1/8 tsp that the fertilator suggests, when you get your scale. Do several (4-5 maybe more) 1/8 tesapoonsfuls and average them together to get a good weight. Maybe someone else doses it dry and can chime in.


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

I just had the thought that it may be easier to just stick with the teaspoons. I seems like it will be easier that trying to weigh out Xgrams of something. I think I am going to stick with the teaspoons until I feel I need a little more accuracy in dosing.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

In my experience, tsp are much easier to dose. They are not as accurate but they are much easier. Will save you some money an the scale too!


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## frozenoak (Jul 30, 2005)

The scale is free but it would certainly be easier that trying to get my bro to take it to the mailbox ](*,)


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

PMDD used mls, it's more accurate for smaller trace amounts but you can use the dosing calculators to make solutions based off the teasponn weights rather than buying a scale etc.

Some folks prefer that as dividing 1/4 teaspoon into 4 equal parts for a 1/16" is not easy for some folks whereas adding 5mls vs 1.25 mls is much easier.

So for something like Traces, using the liquid dilution is better.

Add 1 tablespoon per 250mls of DI water, and dose 5mls per 80 liters 2-3x a week for CO2 enriched mod/high light tank.

I personally prefer TMG and Flourish though.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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