# Shrimp Interbreeding



## natureman187

New member and first time posting -
I've been keeping amono's for years and have recently purchased a half dozen cherry shrimp a couple months ago for my planted display tank and now have several dozen of the little squirts. I got so intrigued by this to the point where I am in the process of giving away my cichlid pair to turn that tank (30g) into a shrimp/plant tank. I'm new to the shrimp breeding world and was wandering what shrimp species and forms can be kept together without serious interbreeding. I have my eye on of course the cherry shrimp, the indian zebra shrimp, and the crystal red shrimp.
Thanks for your time,
Lance


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## Chuppy

It is safe.. most of them would prefer to breed between their own species... but to me.. i want them to mix.. it gives me all this interesting shrimp colour and Im liking it.. but heck beauty lies on the eyes of the beholder


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## evercl92

CRS won't interbreed with cherry's. That's what I've got mixed in my 10gal. I'm not sure on the zebras though.


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## Chuppy

thats true.. CRS wont interbreed with RCS


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## chiahead

BTW if you interbreed say a red shrimp with a green shrimp(if its possible) you will not get a red and green shrimp...it will most likely come out clear.


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## Wood

Someone asked me this question a couple of days ago, so I wrote a quick thing for him:

Anyhow, each shrimp has a species name. The Tiger Shrimp for example is Caridina sp. Tiger. Note the "Caridina". The Red Cherry Shrimp is Neocaridina heteropoda sp red. Note the "Neocaridina". Every other shrimp also has a scientific species name. There is a simple rule when it comes to what can be kept together and what cant. Caridinas cannot be kept with other Caridinas. Neocaridinas cannot be kept with other Neocaridinas. If you put a Neocaridina with another Neocaridina they will cross breed and hybridize, which you do not want! However, it is totally safe to keep a Neocaridina with a Caridina, they will not cross breed. 

So you can keep Tiger Shrimp and Red Cherry Shrimp together, but you cannot keep a Tiger Shrimp and a Green Shrimp (both Caridina) together...

So the simple rule to follow is no Caridina with another Caridina, and no Neocaridina with another Neocaridina. There are some of the same species that can potentially be kept together without hybridizing, but that can be confusing so just follow the simple rule to be safe...

-Ryan


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## Chuppy

Hey Wood.. that is true and all.. But is it okay to let them cross breed?


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## Wood

Chuppy said:


> Hey Wood.. that is true and all.. But is it okay to let them cross breed?


Cross breeding shrimp is not good. It creates a "mut" which does not look good at all. It does not produce a nice mix of colors from each shrimp, instead it produces and ugly shrimp that doesnt look too desirable. You can try cross breeding experiments by having them separated if you like just to see what happens, but you do not want to cross breed an entire colony...

-Ryan


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## natureman187

Thanks for the input. That clearified everything pretty quick.


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## foolish1

actually, hybridizing can produce much healthier shrimp in the long run. by mixing the different species, the dominant genes that contribute to survival (such as heartiness and adaptability) become more prevalent. granted the recessive genes which contribute to appearance (like coloration) become less prevalent. therefore, you mau end up with "ugly" mutts, but they'll probably be the healthiest and longest-living in the tank.


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## Wood

foolish1 said:


> actually, hybridizing can produce much healthier shrimp in the long run. by mixing the different species, the dominant genes that contribute to survival (such as heartiness and adaptability) become more prevalent. granted the recessive genes which contribute to appearance (like coloration) become less prevalent. therefore, you mau end up with "ugly" mutts, but they'll probably be the healthiest and longest-living in the tank.


I am sorry but I must say that your name says it all for that post. Anyone who read this post above, please erase it from your brain.

To ensure good genetics, get the same species from another breeder and put them in the same tank, that will create variety.

-Ryan


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## Script404

He may actually have a point Wood, I think he's reffering to hybrid vigour, where hybridizeds species can actuallly be healthier than the pure bred.


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## Wood

Script404 said:


> He may actually have a point Wood, I think he's reffering to hybrid vigour, where hybridizeds species can actuallly be healthier than the pure bred.


The lifetime of a shrimp will not be changed at all by creating hybrids, I promise you that. Shrimp only live for a very small time, one of the reasons why they are so prolific.

His post makes no sense whatsoever other than to tell people to ruin their pure strain of a species by breeding with another species. It is common for breeders to exchange the *same *species in order to introduce different genetics, preventing defects. This will work just as good as hybridizing would, except your shrimp wouldn't turn into muts and your strain would still be intact.

-Ryan


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## Chuppy

Wood said:


> Cross breeding shrimp is not good. It creates a "mut" which does not look good at all. It does not produce a nice mix of colors from each shrimp, instead it produces and ugly shrimp that doesnt look too desirable. You can try cross breeding experiments by having them separated if you like just to see what happens, but you do not want to cross breed an entire colony...
> 
> -Ryan


Woops too late... In my tank i have loads of shrimps..
Shrimps such as amano, cherry, tiger, green, CRS, CBS, yellow, orange......... hmm kind of too late to do anything since it is already 8 months old(the tank/shrimp i mean)


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## Wood

Chuppy said:


> Woops too late... In my tank i have loads of shrimps..
> Shrimps such as amano, cherry, tiger, green, CRS, CBS, yellow, orange......... hmm kind of too late to do anything since it is already 8 months old(the tank/shrimp i mean)


Haha. Well I suppose you may end up breeding some aliens or something 

-Ryan


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## A_Shea

cross breeding shrimp is not bad to do at all, nor is it unhealthy, as long as the beholder desires what they make. The hybridized shrimp would be just as healthy if they were all breed within the same species but with different genetics. As was posted before, Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Wood

A_Shea said:


> cross breeding shrimp is not bad to do at all, nor is it unhealthy, as long as the beholder desires what they make. The hybridized shrimp would be just as healthy if they were all breed within the same species but with different genetics. As was posted before, Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.


Exactly...


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## Chuppy

Wood said:


> Haha. Well I suppose you may end up breeding some aliens or something
> 
> -Ryan


Lol.. But have u ever seen.. A yellow shrimp with an extra stripe of darker yellow on top... And also.. I have this amano.. even my LFS wants me to breed mroe of it and sell it off to him.. but.. as i was saying.. I have this amano.. it has a yellow stripe on top...(like all amanos) Spots on the side(once agn like all amanos..) but maroon in color.. i will try to post up the pic soon enough... And i could have sworn that 1 of my Crystal black shrimp has a pinch of blue.. Heck i like em anyways.. I even have this yellow/orange shrimp with red striped...(horizontal ones).. Aliens.. true.. But unique >=) lol


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## Script404

Wood said:


> The lifetime of a shrimp will not be changed at all by creating hybrids, I promise you that. Shrimp only live for a very small time, one of the reasons why they are so prolific.
> 
> His post makes no sense whatsoever other than to tell people to ruin their pure strain of a species by breeding with another species. It is common for breeders to exchange the *same *species in order to introduce different genetics, preventing defects. This will work just as good as hybridizing would, except your shrimp wouldn't turn into muts and your strain would still be intact.
> 
> -Ryan


I wasnt so much reffering to lifetime, I was reffering to things like disease resitance which can happen with hybrid vigour.
Personally I agree I wouldnt want to ruin a nice looking strain of shrimp in my tank by crossbreeding.


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## Wood

Script404 said:


> I wasnt so much reffering to lifetime, I was reffering to things like disease resitance which can happen with hybrid vigour.
> Personally I agree I wouldnt want to ruin a nice looking strain of shrimp in my tank by crossbreeding.


I completely agree with the concept of decreased immune systems and such, except we have to remember that we are dealing with invertebrates and not mammals. I am not a scientist but I do think that the rules are different for these creatures versus mammals, fish, etc.

-Ryan


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## ed seeley

Wood said:


> I completely agree with the concept of decreased immune systems and such, except we have to remember that we are dealing with invertebrates and not mammals. I am not a scientist but I do think that the rules are different for these creatures versus mammals, fish, etc.
> 
> -Ryan


I'm not totally sure what you mean by 'the rules' but constant inbreeding can still cause problems with any animal. This is manifest by the fact that I have read people referring to CRS as more sensitive than Bees and Tigers; an indication of inbreeding depression?

One of the biggest factors of how much inbreeding effects species seems to be the homozygosity of the founder population, i.e. how much the organisms mix in the wild. For species that don't have a planktonic stage, then the populations probably don't get mixed much which may be why we have Tiger and Crystal red mutations from the same species so quickly.

As to the crossing of two species, while it may give a hybrid vigour in the F1 (just like lots of garden plants), may well cause problems in F2 and subsequent generations unless the two species are so closely related that they are fully fertile hybrids. Crossing varieties of the same species may give a mongrel, but, like dogs, it may be the healthiest animal you'll find and, as a true species, will be able to be bred subsequently!


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## Wood

ed seeley said:


> I'm not totally sure what you mean by 'the rules' but constant inbreeding can still cause problems with any animal. This is manifest by the fact that I have read people referring to CRS as more sensitive than Bees and Tigers; an indication of inbreeding depression?
> 
> One of the biggest factors of how much inbreeding effects species seems to be the homozygosity of the founder population, i.e. how much the organisms mix in the wild. For species that don't have a planktonic stage, then the populations probably don't get mixed much which may be why we have Tiger and Crystal red mutations from the same species so quickly.
> 
> As to the crossing of two species, while it may give a hybrid vigour in the F1 (just like lots of garden plants), may well cause problems in F2 and subsequent generations unless the two species are so closely related that they are fully fertile hybrids. Crossing varieties of the same species may give a mongrel, but, like dogs, it may be the healthiest animal you'll find and, as a true species, will be able to be bred subsequently!


What I meant by "the rules" is basically the consequences of prolonged inbreeding in invertebrates versus the consequences of the same in mammals. Genetics in invertebrates are much different than that of mammals, therefore the same amount of inbreeding in mammals may not affect invertebrates the same. However, since I do not know the true susceptibility that invertebrates face when inbreeding several generations, I simply recommend that you trade amongst other breeders in order to add diversity to the genetics of the invertebrates.

It may not take as much diversity in the genetics of invertebrates to prevent defects than some may think. Ruining a strain of selectively bred shrimp in order to prevent genetics defects by hybridizing with a wild strain may be completely unnecessary, and most likely is. Until clear evidence suggests that trading with another breeder is simply not enough to prevent genetic defects then I feel that as long as you do trade you will prevent any unwanted consequences.

-Ryan


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## phreeflow

Back to the original question on this thread, the definitive answer is that Tiger Shrimp WILL interbreed with your Crystal Red Shrimp but NEITHER of these will interbreed with the Cherry Red Shrimp. In short, decide to either keep Crystal Reds with Cherries or Tigers with Cherries if you are concerned about interbreeding. 

As far as interbreeding goes...i don't think it's a big deal when you are dealing with prolific animals such as guppies or shrimp. However, if you are working toward a specific goal, such as a nice strain of discus leopard snakeskin discus, the last thing you want to do is to crossbreed a leopard snakeskin with a golden discus. Also ethically, if you are working with a endangered species, you'd want to try your best to keep that fish/shrimp as pure as possible to help propagate more of the species. For example, I wouldn't want to try and cross an endangered Celestial Pearl Danio (aka Galaxy Rasbora) with a common zebra danio...if that were possible.

Personally, IMHO, I would think it's a waste to cross a CRS with a Tiger Shrimp. CRS have a very small gene pool and are not yet abundantly available nor are they really strong. It would be good to try and focus on improving on that strain of bee shrimp. 

There are cases where interbreeding is very useful. For instance, I crossbreed high quality Crystal Black Shrimp (aka black diamond or black bee shrimp) with my Crystal Reds to strengthen/enhance the genetic diversity of the CRS. The red is a recessive trait but over a few generations, the black is eventually bred out and the end result is that I am left with stronger, redder, brighter, more vigorous Crystal Red Shrimp. 

Just my 2 cents....


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## phreeflow

Great point but unfortunately and that may be true with some inverts(I don't claim to be an expert just speaking from personal experience breeding CRS), all Crystal Red Shrimp share a very closely related bloodline that traces itself back to the Japanese sushi chef that first selectively bred the CRS from standard bee shrimp. CRS, thus, share a very small gene pool and simply trading with other breeders for their bloodlines doesn't quite alleviate the problem. Therefore, breeders/hobbyists such as myself have recently begun to selectively outcross our CRS with other bee shrimp to introduce greater genetic diversity and vigour. Please see my post above for details.



Wood said:


> What I meant by "the rules" is basically the consequences of prolonged inbreeding in invertebrates versus the consequences of the same in mammals. Genetics in invertebrates are much different than that of mammals, therefore the same amount of inbreeding in mammals may not affect invertebrates the same. However, since I do not know the true susceptibility that invertebrates face when inbreeding several generations, I simply recommend that you trade amongst other breeders in order to add diversity to the genetics of the invertebrates.
> 
> It may not take as much diversity in the genetics of invertebrates to prevent defects than some may think. Ruining a strain of selectively bred shrimp in order to prevent genetics defects by hybridizing with a wild strain may be completely unnecessary, and most likely is. Until clear evidence suggests that trading with another breeder is simply not enough to prevent genetic defects then I feel that as long as you do trade you will prevent any unwanted consequences.
> 
> -Ryan


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## Chuppy

Lol all this is so interesting.. "To interbreed or not interbreed.. That is the question" - _Chuppy, 2007_


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## Wood

phreeflow said:


> Great point but unfortunately and that may be true with some inverts(I don't claim to be an expert just speaking from personal experience breeding CRS), all Crystal Red Shrimp share a very closely related bloodline that traces itself back to the Japanese sushi chef that first selectively bred the CRS from standard bee shrimp. CRS, thus, share a very small gene pool and simply trading with other breeders for their bloodlines doesn't quite alleviate the problem. Therefore, breeders/hobbyists such as myself have recently begun to selectively outcross our CRS with other bee shrimp to introduce greater genetic diversity and vigour. Please see my post above for details.


I have never bred CRS so I cannot say anything about them. I do know that they were discovered by a single individual when he spotted a red bee amongst all of his black bees. However, I do believe that since the CRS is actually a red bee and many breeders have cross bred CRS with their cousins the Black Bee, that their diversity may not be as small as we may think. Seeing High Grade Black Bees shows that crossing is being done. I will ask a couple of well known CRS breeders about this issue and I am sure they can offer their professional incite into this. It is a very interesting topic though. Of course this entire thread morphed into a "genetic debate" but its a good thing.

However, the answer to the initial statement I disagreed with stays the same. A lot of shrimp hobbyists are interested in preserving their specific strain of shrimp, and not creating a hybrid/mut. Cross-breeding with another species defeats the purpose of wanting to keep a pure strain, and/or pure coloration of the shrimp you are keeping. So if you wish to keep your Red Cherry Shrimp red, and your Blue Pearls blue, do not cross-breed them


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## natureman187

Wood, the "Rule" you are referring to is valid whether is be complex animals like ourselves or single celled phytoplankton in a tank affected by green water. DNA is constantly in a state of mutation - the rate of change is the only variable.


As for the original topic, I read crs will interbreed with tiger shrimp readily off of petshrimp but was wandering about indian zebra shrimp. I assume they will, same species different color morph but one never knows - just wanted to see if anyone had any experience with these two together


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## ed seeley

Wood said:


> What I meant by "the rules" is basically the consequences of prolonged inbreeding in invertebrates versus the consequences of the same in mammals. Genetics in invertebrates are much different than that of mammals, therefore the same amount of inbreeding in mammals may not affect invertebrates the same.


As I said in my first post what seems to be a main factor in the problems inbreeding can cause is how 'inbred' the species is naturally, not it's so-called 'complexity' or whether it is a mammal or an invertebrate. As Natureman alluded to DNA is DNA is DNA. It doesn't matter whether it is in a Human being, a shrimp, a fruit fly or a flatworm! 
The rate of new mutations isn't really an issue as overall it is relatively constant between different organisms, but the loss of differences from inbreeding definitely is. In a small inbred population this can lead to a very consistent highly related population, but this may not cause any measureable problems either if they have evolved in a highly inbred situation it seems a lot of the deleterious mutations are lost through natural selection. Only in highly outbred populations does inbreeding cause major issues as the supressed recessive mutations are then expressed in inbreeding situations and lots of problems can occur.

Basically inbreeding isn't usually a good thing, but it's better than crossing different species to get hybrids, IMHO. IMO I agree with you that hybrids should be avoided, for a number of reasons, but others devote a lot of time to breeding hybrids of some fish and plants among others.

But crossing varieties within a species can be used to produce some interesting new varieties. Who wouldn't like a Red Tiger??? It's not unreasonable to assume that the 'RED' mutation could be combined with the 'TIGER' mutation to give a shrimp that has both RED and TIGER genes. Of course the two mutations may not be compatible but you never know (Unless someone's tried it!). And if they have a little hybrid vigour in the bargain too then why not?


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## Wood

ed seeley said:


> As I said in my first post what seems to be a main factor in the problems inbreeding can cause is how 'inbred' the species is naturally, not it's so-called 'complexity' or whether it is a mammal or an invertebrate. As Natureman alluded to DNA is DNA is DNA. It doesn't matter whether it is in a Human being, a shrimp, a fruit fly or a flatworm!
> The rate of new mutations isn't really an issue as overall it is relatively constant between different organisms, but the loss of differences from inbreeding definitely is. In a small inbred population this can lead to a very consistent highly related population, but this may not cause any measureable problems either if they have evolved in a highly inbred situation it seems a lot of the deleterious mutations are lost through natural selection. Only in highly outbred populations does inbreeding cause major issues as the supressed recessive mutations are then expressed in inbreeding situations and lots of problems can occur.
> 
> Basically inbreeding isn't usually a good thing, but it's better than crossing different species to get hybrids, IMHO. IMO I agree with you that hybrids should be avoided, for a number of reasons, but others devote a lot of time to breeding hybrids of some fish and plants among others.
> 
> But crossing varieties within a species can be used to produce some interesting new varieties. Who wouldn't like a Red Tiger??? It's not unreasonable to assume that the 'RED' mutation could be combined with the 'TIGER' mutation to give a shrimp that has both RED and TIGER genes. Of course the two mutations may not be compatible but you never know (Unless someone's tried it!). And if they have a little hybrid vigour in the bargain too then why not?


Exactly. I am not a geneticist but my simple logic was that creating hybrids for the purpose of preventing potential consequences of inbreeding with hobby shrimp is unnecessary.

There actually is a Red Tiger  http://www.wirbellose-nrw.de/D/Garnelen - Tigergarnele rot.htm


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## natureman187

that red tiger is def really neat


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## Chuppy

blue tiger even neater..... But the price..... USD$250 for 5!!!!!!


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## ed seeley

Wood said:


> There actually is a Red Tiger  http://www.wirbellose-nrw.de/D/Garnelen - Tigergarnele rot.htm


Very nice, I'd love a bunch of those if only I didn't kill every shrimp I bought....


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## duchessren

chiahead said:


> BTW if you interbreed say a red shrimp with a green shrimp(if its possible) you will not get a red and green shrimp...it will most likely come out clear.


**JOKE** I am not condoning the interbreeding of different types of shrimp.

HOWEVER, if you could get a green shrimp and a red shrimp to breed into some sorta green and white striped morph in time for Christmas, you might make some money. I think I might have said something along those lines on this forum before, but at the same time, it could have been no more than a passing thought in my head...


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## kiwik

^^^
hahaha


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## Wood

duchessren said:


> **JOKE** I am not condoning the interbreeding of different types of shrimp.
> 
> HOWEVER, if you could get a green shrimp and a red shrimp to breed into some sorta green and white striped morph in time for Christmas, you might make some money. I think I might have said something along those lines on this forum before, but at the same time, it could have been no more than a passing thought in my head...


haha. thats funny. The Xmas Shrimp. I am sure as the shrimp hobby progresses there will be a ton of different selectively bred species coming out. Germany is on top of the game as far as selective breeding and I am sure some of the breeders over there have got some "prototypes" 

-Ryan


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## duchessren

Wood said:


> Germany is on top of the game as far as selective breeding and I am sure some of the breeders over there have got some "prototypes"
> -Ryan


Yeah, I know... How do you think I got that top secret photo? ;-)


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## Six

I think there's some confusion about the terms "inbreeding" and "hybridizing".

Inbreeding is the same species being bred over and over with no genetic variation (think mom and dad, dad and daughter, etc). This is, as Wood said, up in the air as to how it effects inverts as far as hardiness goes. Separate dog breeds exist because of this. That's why these "hybrid" breeds (which are not actually hybrids), like Puggles and Laboradoodles are less prone to genetic diseases like hip displasia.

Hybridizing is breeding two different species together. Were' talking Ligers, Tigons, FW Parrotfish. and flowerhorns. (which IMO is not something that should be done. Sure it creates something new, but the whole point of the hobby is to enjoy what already exist on earth, not fabricate our own.) Most hobby clubs do not accept hybrids in auctions or in shows because they are not a true species. 

Just wondering if those who are Pro-hybridization understand what that means.


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## unchin

Anyone ever interbreed tigers and crystal reds on accident? I have some tigers in the tank with my crystal reds. I might be getting some mixes eventually. What do they look like?


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## milalic

Wood said:


> haha. thats funny. The Xmas Shrimp. I am sure as the shrimp hobby progresses there will be a ton of different selectively bred species coming out. Germany is on top of the game as far as selective breeding and I am sure some of the breeders over there have got some "prototypes"
> 
> -Ryan


In part I am choosing this post because wood mentions selectively bred species...what guarantees that these selectively bred species are not in fact hybrids of some sort?People can create hybrids and said they are selectively bred, put a a nice name and sell them. How would people know they are hybrids if offsprings look like the parents and the person that introduce them to the hobby is the only one to have them at the beginning?

Or I am interpreting selectively bred species wrong?


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