# Erythromycin use?



## Erirku

So what it seems to me, that what I have is BGA, but it ain't blue or green, its black sheets covering my mosses and tonina. Its very easy to take out, but a pain toget rid of. Even after resetting the whole tank again, some how it rises up out of the grave. N ratio is at 10:1 ppm.
So will my plants suffer from using this antibiotic?
Thanks.


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## ShaneSmith

It will not have an impact on your plants.


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## Erirku

Also, is it ok to dose ferts, while using this antibiotic? Thanks


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## gnatster

Whats the dosing protocol?

Is it helpful to use with Peroxide at the same time? If so, how much per gal of the 3% grocery store variety?

TIA


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## ShaneSmith

Peroxide is pretty weak, i suggest getting a product called greenclean. It is a peroxide compound and is alot more damaging to algae / causes to damage to plants. I have used it before. I think its like 10oz of Peroxide per 10 gallons. Look it up on the APD. I would just use the antibiotics by themselves.


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## Erirku

Well, I was gonna dose some macros today, but I guess it would be better to just wait. Thanks.


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## ShaneSmith

It will not affect your macro dosing.


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## pineapple

A side-effect of using Flourish Excel is an algaecidal effect on BGA. In a 15 US gallon aquarium, for example, after the water change you would dose two capfuls (10ml), then on each day after dose one capful (5ml). Keep your eye on the aquarium and once the BGA starts to turn grey, remove by vacuuming. Dose macros normally during this treatment.

Note, this dosing regime for Flourish Excel is slightly higher than the schedule Seachem recommends.

Using this method sometime ago, I was able to completely remove BGA presence in an aquarium without harming fish or shrimp. However, your water and dosing schedule might be different, so observe the tank carefully. If you get any hint of cloudy water, stop dosing for one day, then resume.

"My advice is no substitute for your own research," as the stock market broker tells you when he sells you an equity....

Andrew Cribb


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## gnatster

Whats the dosing protocol for E-mycin?


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## ShaneSmith

About 20mg per 10 gallons i would guess. Just go light at first.


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## plantbrain

Why doesn't ANYONE suggest a blackout?.

It's free
It's a 100% effective
It addresses the cause the BGA
If followed, BGA never comes back.
It's 100% safe

50% water change, remove what's there
Cover tank and turn off/CO2 lights
Add 1/4 teaspoon per 80 liters of of KNO3

3 days later turn lights on, water change and add
KNO3 back and thereafter at 1-2x a week, more with higher light.

BGA does not return(I have not had BGA for many years, it's there and I can find it under a scope, but does not bloom or is ever visible)

Not sure how you can compare anything else as a better method than this.
Free, fast, effective,easy, addresses the long term issues(KNO3) and is 100% safe in all cases.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## trenac

Plantbrain... Maybe some don't suggest the blackout method because they don't feel comfortable using it like me, besides I don't won't to go without seeing my fish for 3-5 days wondering whats going on under there. I found that using E-mycin at full dose for 5 days is 100% effective & safe, although it is not free. Not saying the blackout is not, this is just my opinion.


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## cS

Are we sure that what we are dealing with here is blue-green algae? From Erirku's descriptions, it sounds remarkably similar to the "grey slime" reported by Cavan earlier in the year. He reported that erythromycin is ineffective against the "grey slime". According to him and one or two other hobbyists, a 3-day blackout was the only treatment for it, aside from total tank break-down.

Erirku, are you still plagued with this algae? Please provide more thorough information on your tank's setup so we can better assess the situation.


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## Erirku

Tank specs:
15G
2X55 watt CF ( 6" above the tank )
CO2: 30ppm
NO3:10ppm
PO4:0.8-1.5ppm
macros I dose once after WC, seems the plants got better, but these 2 seem to not be taken up :?.
TE: every other day 1.5mls
pH:6.6
Flora: tonina, riccia, downoi, A. gracilis, L. aromatica, A. ambulla, moss.
Fish: several tetras
To my use of the meds, it seems to be not appearing, so I'm hoping it worked. I also did tear down my tank, and it still managed to come back. Yesterday was the last dosage, so I'm hoping that it won't come :?.


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## plantbrain

trenac said:


> Plantbrain... Maybe some don't suggest the blackout method because they don't feel comfortable using it like me, besides I don't won't to go without seeing my fish for 3-5 days wondering whats going on under there. I found that using E-mycin at full dose for 5 days is 100% effective & safe, although it is not free. Not saying the blackout is not, this is just my opinion.


What's the risk of a BO when you are using this stuff and H2O2 etc?
Zero%.

Never lost a fish from a blackout hahahha, come on you pill poppers. How is that bad for fish?

It takes 3 days, not 3-5 days. Unlike all the anti biotic suggestions folks suggest, I've been the only one to suggest what is causing the BGA to begin with and the long term cure, issue.

That, unlike antibiotics, helps the plants do better, I think you folks really are missing the point here.

The BGA, BBA etc are signs that there are sub optimal conditions in your tanks for plant growth. Correcting those conditions, ......even if you think the plants are doing great at the time, the conditions can be further improved which no algae killer will ever do.

This allows me to know why and what is going in their tanks without knowing parameters.

That is the key to having no issues forever.
I've been down this path many years ago. 
I'm not going to tell you things I've not done myself nor suggest some hair brained idea that's a harder path. Why would I ever do that?

You may disagree now, but down the road after you do this for awhile, you may change your minds.

I can give someone a deer to eat, but if I teach them to hunt, they can feed themselves forever.

The focus should be on the plants and improving their growth. *Not one of you suggested that here*.

She is only doing once a week KNO3, dose 3x a week.
110 w on a 15 gal, good grief. Why on earth do you have that much light?
If you can cut that to 1/2 that, that is plenty for Tonia(I grow it too).

You must dose macro's more than 1x a week at this light level with CO2.

Do this for nutrient routine:
KNO3 ~1/6 teaspoon every other day
KH2PO4 ~ 1/16th every other day

TE on off day, add 3mls every other day.

Weekly 50-70% WC.

Keep the CO2 up high, very high.
Clean the tank very well, everything, then do the water change, remove as much as you can.

You try this if the other does not work but you will have issues unless you dose the macros more often.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## trenac

Plantbrain... I did not say that there was any risk in using the BO method, I said I was not comfortable using the BO method.

I have never lost fish either using E-mycin. I would not call using it once to get rid of BGA being a "pill popper", only using a RX over and over again is consider being a "pill popper".

I used the example of 3-5 days because I read/heard on various forums of people using the BO method for that period of time.

I don't know why you think that other methods of solving issues in a tank is "hair brained" if they are proven to work. _Is it because their not your own way of doing things?_ If so there is more than one way of doing things, what works for you may not work for someone else and vice versa, but it does not mean it is wrong just because you don't use that method.

Yes, a well balanced tank & improving plant growth is the way to go to stop having algae issues. However that was not the focus of this post, the original question was "will my plants suffer from using this antibiotic"?


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## Erirku

Thanks alot for the informative replies. Oh, and Tom I'm a dude! The ID name is what my japanese friends all call me, even though it is not spelled correctly, but that was how I spelled it 7 years ago and I found it comfortable to my standards . Thanks again


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## plantbrain

trenac said:


> Plantbrain... I did not say that there was any risk in using the BO method, I said I was not comfortable using the BO method.


You said you were not comfortable, could not see your fish why would you feel that during any treatment? Semantics is all that is about. You can lift the towel etc to look if you feel compelled too. A short bit will not harm anything, you can peek



trenac said:


> I have never lost fish either using E-mycin. I would not call using it once to get rid of BGA being a "pill popper", only using a RX over and over again is consider being a "pill popper".


Then you have little experience causing/inducing a BGA bloom, I've repeat my test many times(12x), not just once. 
I treat the larger issue, not a simple pill solution.

This is the same reason I do not suggest algicides and snake oils. 
They detract from the goal, growing healthy plants.
That's why I support this method, not becuase it does or does not work.



trenac said:


> I don't know why you think that other methods of solving issues in a tank is "hair brained" if they are proven to work. _Is it because their not your own way of doing things?_ If so there is more than one way of doing things, what works for you may not work for someone else and vice versa, but it does not mean it is wrong just because you don't use that method.


My way has nothing to do with. The root cause does. Rather than merely fixing the symtom, I looked at the cause, so I suppose in some way, yes, my method is better. I use plants and nature to deal with it rather than a pill. Many folks do not have access to antibiotics. 
As far as I know, I'm the only one that has suggested a lack of NO3 allows this species of Oscillitoria to grow in a planted tank and also know it does not produce heterocyst.

I give advice for a reason, not just what you can get in the USA, or something to fix the problem, I view plant health from a holistic approach, something you totally missed here.

I can use quick fixes but in general they don't help the person, much like givign someone a deer vs teaching to hurt for a deer. In the long run, teaching to help themselves works better.

They also repeat this pattern when they give advice rather than merely treating the smytom.



trenac said:


> Yes, a well balanced tank & improving plant growth is the way to go to stop having algae issues. However that was not the focus of this post, the original question was "will my plants suffer from using this antibiotic"?


That question was answered early on.

Erirku, sorry about that, your avatar betrays your gender.
You still have a great deal of light on there.
This will make things tougher for you.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## trenac

Tom... I know you have a lot more experience then I and know a lot more about solving algae issues. However I do believe there is more than one solution to a problem, I guess the better one would be determined by the user. I agree you need to look at the cause of the problem and fix it, that using Algaecide only covers up the problem. But I see no harm in using a antibiotic to get rid of the initial problem as long as you are working on solving the imbalance at the same time so the algae does not return. Anyway, I respect what you have to offer and know we just will not agree on this subject at this time, but maybe as I grow in this hobby I can see more of your side. :wink:


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## Robert Hudson

I have gotten into this arguement /discussion before several times on APD, and I don't really want another fight, but I will just say that I personaly do not think a black out is all that effective against BGA, and Maracin works and is easy.

I just recently had a BGA attack. I know what the cause was. My C02 tank ran dry and I didn't re fill it. Then a couple light bulbs burnt out. Then a ballast burn out that was powering the remaining lights. That left me with only two out of six working light bulbs. I didn't get everything up and running again for three weeks. The tank crashed. During this time I had to uproot several plants that unearthed gunk from the substrate. Needless to say the tank was a mess. BGA covered the glass and many of the plants. 

When I got everything up and running the way it should be, I wanted to get rid of the BGA quickly, as soon as possible. Doing a black out for three days and massive water changes, and hoping for the best was not an option. I did a 40% water change cleaning out as much as possible and then added Maracyn. I did this for three days and all the BGA was gone, the water was clear, and the plants look healthy. I do not expect the BGA to return. The last time I had BGA was three years ago, and I treated it with Maracyn then as well. It is easy and painless. It will also treat any infections the fish might have contracted from the dirty tank conditions.

I really do not understand peoples intolerance of using an anti biotic. It is not snake oil. It is a treatment. To each their own. This drug will not have any affect on the plants


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## plantbrain

Robert Hudson said:


> I have gotten into this arguement /discussion before several times on APD, and I don't really want another fight, but I will just say that I personaly do not think a black out is all that effective against BGA, and Maracin works and is easy.
> 
> When I got everything up and running the way it should be, I wanted to get rid of the BGA quickly, as soon as possible. Doing a black out for three days and massive water changes, and hoping for the best was not an option. I did a 40% water change cleaning out as much as possible and then added Maracyn. I did this for three days and all the BGA was gone, the water was clear, and the plants look healthy. I do not expect the BGA to return. The last time I had BGA was three years ago, and I treated it with Maracyn then as well. It is easy and painless. It will also treat any infections the fish might have contracted from the dirty tank conditions.
> 
> I really do not understand peoples intolerance of using an anti biotic. It is not snake oil. It is a treatment. To each their own. This drug will not have any affect on the plants


Blackout is an effective treatment that does not involve the use of any herbicides/microbial biocide.

I find it ironic that folks kick and scream at herbicide use in natural water but don't give it asecond thought in their tanks
I'm not saying EM does not work, not against selective use of herbicides, but rather..........ask the question "why is the algae/weed is there in the first place?"

Blackout+KNO3 is not a guess, it's a 100% effective. 
I've done it many times over the last 2 years. 
It's also easy and painless and free.

I mean, what is *so hard *about turing the lights out for 3 days?
Flipping a switch vs dropping some pills in the tank?
Water changes are needed to remove all the extra gunk anyway.
KNO3 needs to be added..........

I really don't see where the EM is that great or easier.
If you follow my suggestions using KNO3+3 day blackout, I think you find it works as well and better since plant health is addressed with the blackout method+KNO3.

That's no guess there.
Given that, and the general adversion to the moral issues/unavailability using antioboitics, seems better to suggest a balckout.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## niko

One side effect of using EM that could be considered "great" is the supression of algae other than BGA.

For a few days one could enjoy a cleaner tank... and maybe rekindle the interest in the hobby. All that with the help of a little white pill, truly a "better life through chemistry"!

--Nikolay


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## gnatster

> I find it ironic that folks kick and scream at herbicide use in natural water but don't give it asecond thought in their tanks
> I'm not saying EM does not work, not against selective use of herbicides, but rather..........ask the question "why is the algae/weed is there in the first place?"


Not screaming at herbicide use

I know why I had a massive BGA attack. It was ALL my own fault.

It's funny, all I asked earlier in this post is what is the proper dosing protocol for E-mycin use. I know an option is to use the black-out method but I also like the slogan "better living through chemistry". A dozen 200mg e-mycin caps were gratis from my neighbor the pharmacist with the explicit understanding they were for veterinary use. Worked like a charm, one 200 mg per 10 gal dose and in 3 days and all the BGA was gone. No blankets to fall in my open topped tank.

There are alternatives..

BTW I dose via the PPS regimen too.


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## plantbrain

I said folks, referring to the public at large.
Many have moral issues, founded or not, with antibiotics in the food, non prescription etc.

The dosing is well established, always has been for close two 2 decades. 
Folks did not know what genus the BGA we have is about 6 years ago, nor did they know whether or not it could fix N2 gas, nor know why it appeared. Things changed there.

I still don't see how the pill it any more difficult than turning the light off and blanket.

No one has said anything that suggests it is thus far.

I do suggest adding better things through chemistry, but it's focusing on plants and the use of KNO3(ooo I'm adding a _chemical_), not antiobiotics. So neither of the arguements give any more support for the pill vs the blackout.
That is...... if the antiobiotics are *available and are free*.
That's seldom the case, and you know that.

But some folks seem to think and believe so without having tried the method. I've tried both methods many times over the years.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## litesky

My friends and I have always had algae problems whenever we start a new aquascape. However, we never fix the situations with algaecide or antibiotics. By adjusting to correct fert dosages, the problems get fixed naturally by themselves. And by doing so, we were able to understand what each of our tanks need because every tank is different... By adding algaecide or antibiotics I don't think it would help me to know what is needed for each tank to reach its optimal settings.

But hey Tom, I've had a problem with GreenDust. A lot of people have testified that they started getting GD when they installed a pressurized CO2 system. The same exact thing happened to me. I read couple posts about your recommendations for getting rid of GD, and ofcourse you first recommended a water change and an immediate blackout. I blacked out my tank for 2 days after a water change and the GD have completely disappeared along with some small bits of beard algae. My fish are all alive, but i've lost some reddish and purplish color in some of my colorful plants...but they are still alive.

So I must personally saythat a blackout was a great idea to help me begin the attack against two algaes(primarily green dust), but i still have couple questions...

Do I make another water change immediately after and start dosing kno3 and po4 first day, then flourish next day...and so on? I read this before in another post...but i can't find it anymore.


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## plantbrain

litesky said:


> My friends and I have always had algae problems whenever we start a new aquascape. However, we never fix the situations with algaecide or antibiotics. By adjusting to correct fert dosages, the problems get fixed naturally by themselves. And by doing so, we were able to understand what each of our tanks need because every tank is different... By adding algaecide or antibiotics I don't think it would help me to know what is needed for each tank to reach its optimal settings.
> 
> But hey Tom, I've had a problem with GreenDust. A lot of people have testified that they started getting GD when they installed a pressurized CO2 system. The same exact thing happened to me. I read couple posts about your recommendations for getting rid of GD, and ofcourse you first recommended a water change and an immediate blackout. I blacked out my tank for 2 days after a water change and the GD have completely disappeared along with some small bits of beard algae. My fish are all alive, but i've lost some reddish and purplish color in some of my colorful plants...but they are still alive.
> 
> So I must personally saythat a blackout was a great idea to help me begin the attack against two algaes(primarily green dust), but i still have couple questions...
> 
> Do I make another water change immediately after and start dosing kno3 and po4 first day, then flourish next day...and so on? I read this before in another post...but i can't find it anymore.


This is sort of another topic, so another thread should likely be added.
I have come up up with a good case where a blackout would not be a good thing, a client's tank where they don't want a blackout for 3 days.
I had to think about a few cases from the past, client's are not the most privy to tank management approaches.

In answer to your last question, Clean first, scrub well, siphon off any Green dust , BGA as it settles.
I'd do a larger water change, perhaps to 80%, then refill, then add the nutrients back, turn off the CO2(refer to your comment above on that issue about adding CO2).

GD is pesky for some, I've never been able to culture it over the long term, just 3 weeks and once for 2. I've seen it in some folk's tanks in person for a long time. But the siphon after you wipe the glass seems to knock it back and adding a blackout on top of that may do it in completely even if a bad case.

I see algae and I can tell most of the time what ios wrong with a tank based on the species, this approach is called *bioindicators*, the EPA uses this protocol. Many use plants in this manner as well, eg _M umbrosum_ for low NO3 levels, _Riccia_ pearling for CO2.

This approach leads to a better understanding and doing a term approach based on the plant's needs than copper, algone, Mark Weiss products, algafix, BBA remover, simiazine, anything new that comes down the pipe every few months/years. If I'd settled for antibibiotics alone, we'd have little understanding about why the BGA appeared to begin with, that knowledge is more useful that how to kill it.

But many folks don't care about why(I do), they just want to know about "how" to fix their immediate issues. Nothing wrong with that for them either, it does work to kill it, I've never argued otherwise.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## litesky

All rights...I'll try that out, Thanks Tom!!

Thread: Sorry to lead the thread in the wrong direction.


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## plantbrain

No need to worry about leading the thread elsewhere, we all do it.
Main thing: BGA is a special case where the blackout will address it well.

I supopose if you take Nikolay's notions a step further and apply it to this treatnment and consider it helps other algae, the blackout can help supress other species of algae, antibiotics do not affect other species of eukaryotic algae to the best of my knowledge though............

I think what is seen after treatment in both cases, is a dominate alghae being removed and this makes it appear to change the dynamics and most algae will go into remission, but this effect is indirect.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aviel

Tom, U said:



plantbrain said:


> Why doesn't ANYONE suggest a blackout?.
> 
> It's free
> It's a 100% effective
> It addresses the cause the BGA
> If followed, BGA never comes back.
> It's 100% safe


What do you mean - it addresses the cause of the BGA??? If the BGA was caused due to lack of nitrates then how come BO addresses the cause of the BGA? Does this BO contains nitrates???

And if it was due to water pollution - does BO clean the water?

I don't understand how you keep on saying that it takes care of the root of the problem.

Also - how can you say that it doesn't come back? If the real cause of the problem (not only excess of light) is not discovered then it shall keep on coming again and again and again and it doesn't matter if u use EM or BO. No?

Aviel.


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## plantbrain

Blackout + KNO3 dosing.

The folks that suggest EM seldom, if ever(I've never seen a single person suggest it yet), tell you to add KNO3 as part of the program.

BO and EM only *kill* the BGA, KNO3 prevents it from occuring or coming back time and time again.

If you dose KNO3 regularly and maintain the tank, you will not get BGA, even if it's present, it will not grow with good plant tank maitenance.

So there are *two things* going here, but some want to cling to EM without acknowledging the KNO3 part as the root cause/cure. BO/EM does nothing to cure the long term effect, that is precisely why those folks as well as the eM that did not add KNO3, had reoccurances.

EM will allow a longer peroid between reinfestations than BO if you do not address the long term issue, low NO3, but both will eventually become reinfested at some point if you do not address the KNO3 dosing.

That's where I differ from other folks on this, I know why BGA occurs.
I see it and know immediately what is wrong with the tank.

That knowledge is much more useful than merely how to kill it.
But a cheap/est method anyone can do anywhere is better than the pill method. Everyone/anywhere can do a blackout for free.
So the method is better in the short and the long term and addresses the cause.

If you do not try to go beyond what you have already mastered, you will not grow. Some are fine with that. I'm not and that's fine with me.

If folks are enamored with the pills of EM, use them, but then make sure to add the KNO3 back thereafter. 
Both methods kill it, but the KNO3 takes care of the long term issue.

We all neglect tanks, let our NO3 drop, tank gets infested, we clean, prune and re set it. It's the same old thing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aviel

Are you absolutely sure Tom that BGA appears if and only if NO3 bottoms out?

I am asking because the first time I got the gray slimes it was when I was lean on nutirents - that was before I read your posts. I can't tell for sure what it was - I read 0-5 on the NO3 lousy AP test kit. I thought back then that this was the reason. But apparently I was wrong - I am using today lamotte test kit and when AP shows 0 - the Lamotte shows more than 10. I think that the direct cause in my case was lack of CO2, no fuel for the plants and good opportunity for the BGA. I keep nitrates @ 15-25 these days and I keep CO2 beyond 30 and I still am being attacked by the BGA for no apparent reason - I think it has to do with pollution, something with the pipes through which I move water in and out of the tank chiller. I also suspect that there could be a case where there's plenty of KNO3 but plants can't use it for some reason (lack of essential micros) and BGA is triggered in this case as well.

So...

It's not only KNO3 - it's also pollution and high temperature and low flow and low CO2. 

BO+KNO3 or EM kill the thing but BO+KNO3 is not better because it touches the sole reason for BGA - there are other reasons for BGA which both BO_KNO3 *and* EM don't take care of. 

This is my take on this,

Aviel.


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## xinnix

Algae does not hurt the fish.
antibiotics to remove algae *does* effect the fish and if you need to treat the fish with an antibiotic down the road they may be immune to it because you are using it for plants with algae. 
I am new here and just wanted to add a simple thought.....maybe I am off base??


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