# El Natural With A Twist (long 56k!)



## AaronT

*El Natural With A Twist (long 56k!) Update: 10/19*

I've gotten tired of dosing my high-tech tanks lately so I decided to try something new for a while. I've setup a tank using topsoil, high lighting (over 3 wpg) and pressurized CO2. I got the idea from a member in our local club who has all of his tanks setup this way and has had great success.

The topsoil used should be the cheapest topsoil that the garden center has. It should not have any added fertilizers, humics, etc... This is the same soil everyone that has setup a Walstad style tank should be using. It will be sandy in texture. I got mine from Home Depot for $1.49 / 40 lb. bag.

The key is to mineralize the soil completely before using it in the tank.

1) Start by placing the soil in a container such as a rubbermaid container outside and filling the container with water so that it covers the soil by a few inches. Then mix the soil into the water well to help the water penetrate. 
2) After a couple of days drain off the water on the top and add new water. 
3) Again after a couple of days lay a plastic tarp out in the sun and spread the soil thinly over the tarp to allow it to air dry. 
4) Repeat steps 1-3 about 4 or 5 times and the soil should be ready to use. It will be extremely sandy in texture now. Also, any smell that was there when you started should just about disappear.










You'll also need the following materials:
Muriate of Potash $12.00 - this is a soluable potassium fertilizer that can be found at most garden centers. 








Estes Dolomite $11.00 - Do not use the dolomite found in garden centers as it is not the same thing. This is crushed limestone to keep the substrate from becoming too acidic.








Red Pottery Clay $13.00 - *Do not use modeling clay!* It is made of polymers. You need real clay that was dug up from the ground. This will serve both as an iron source and a binder to help the soil settle back down when plants are uprooted. Below is the amount I used, not the amount you get for $13.00.








T-Grade 3M Colorquartz Sand $26.00 / 50 lb. bag - You can use any substrate cap you like, I just happen to prefer this one. It comes in a nice black color and it holds a slope like no other substrate I've used. It also holds plants extremely well.


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## AaronT

*El Natural With A Twist (the setup)*

Now for the setup:

The tank I used is a standard 20 gallon long. I started by adding just a little bit of the color quartz sand and wetting it down just enough so that it holds its shape when you move it around. I used this to form a border around the front and sides of the tank. *Note:* This step is purely for aesthetics and can be ommitted if you wish.








Then sprinkle just a handful of the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom of the tank. As you can see from the picture the bags of them that you bought are lifetime supplies. 








Next I used about 1/5 lb. of clay and emulsified it in a small tupperware container. *Do not use your mother/wife's tupperware!*This is done simply by rubbing the clay between your fingers until it is in suspension in the water. This takes some time, but is somehow quite relaxing. Then again I like to play in the mud...

I don't have a picture here because I'm also the photographer and my hands were a mess already.

Next mix in the emulsified clay solution with the mineralized soil. Woohoo! More playing in the mud. 8)








Now add this soil soup mixture to the bottom of the tank between your sand borders. This layer should only be 1/2" to 1" thick at the most.








For the next step I added ADA Tourmaline BC, Clear Super and Bacter 100. This is certainly not a necessary step, but I had them laying around at the time. 








Now it's finally time to cap everything off with some more quartz sand. I added about 1.5" of sand on top of everything.








Now for the hardscape:


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## AaronT

*El Natural With A Twist (the scape)*

Lastly, everything gets planted: This was taken on 10/5/06








List of Plants:

Rotala sp. 'Vietnam'
Rotala macrandra
Rotala macrandra 'green'
Rotala hippuris
Rotala sp. 'Nanjenshan'
Rotala sp. 'mini'
Bacopa sp. 'Araguaia'
Utricularia graminifolia
Pogostemon helferi
Anubias barteri var. 'nana'
Anubias barteri var. 'nana petite'
Eriocaulon sp. 'Guang Zhou'

The rocks have since been removed because they leached too much calcium into the water. I'll try to update this thread with pictures every week or two.


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## bpimm

Very simmilar to what I do. but I have never mineralized the soil, I use my own topsoil and screen it then throw it in the tank. I'm running a 80 Gal, 14Gal Hex and a 2 Gal Nano with this system now. the 80 has 2.5 WPG now. 

You have a little more light than I do, It will be interesting to see how your's runs over time.

Keep us posted on the tank's progression.


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## SCMurphy

Is the ADA stuff the 'twist'?


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## AaronT

SCMurphy said:


> Is the ADA stuff the 'twist'?


Well, that and the addition of pressurized CO2.


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## schaadrak

Mixing clay with the soil? Why didn't I think of that?

To what consistancy do you emulsify the clay with water?


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## AaronT

schaadrak said:


> Mixing clay with the soil? Why didn't I think of that?
> 
> To what consistancy do you emulsify the clay with water?


Until it is pretty much all in suspension. Little pieces of it will get mixed in the rest of the way when you combine the soil and clay mixtures.


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## schaadrak

So a very runny slippery mixture, or more like pudding?


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## AaronT

I took about 1/5 lb. of clay and used a plastic gladware container full of water. Rub the clay in between your fingers and it will sluff off into the water a little bit at a time. Once all of the clay is 'dissolved' into the water then pour it in with the dry soil. Mix the two together. It will be very much like pudding when both the soil and clay are mixed together, but the clay and water itself is more like water with lots of clay in it.


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## Stargazer53

I would love to see how everything looks when it grows in but so far, everything looks thumbs up!


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## Wheeler

watch thread...


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## AaronT

I'm having the typical 'new tank' algae issues at present, but the plants are growing well except the Utricularia graminifolia. I suspect the Utricularia is not doing well because of the mineral content in the substrate. I'm hoping to put up a few pics tomorrow perhaps.


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## AaronT

Here's a shot of the tank from this morning 10/19/06:








Here it is again after two large water changes and a scrubbing of the front glass only. You can see that I've also added 8 furcatas rainbows as well.








Though I'm having quite the new tank algae breakout, I'm still optomistic. I haven't dosed a thing save for a little excel and the plant growth is very healthy underneath all of that algae. Just look at the color on the Rotala macrandra. The only plant not doing well is Utricularia graminifolia. I suspect that it has to do with the minerals in the substrate. This plant prefers an inert substrate, but I thought I'd try it anyhow.


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## MrSanders

any updates?


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## AaronT

still fighting green beard algae. Suprisingly, the Utric turned around and is looking very healthy.


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## Zapins

Looks like green dust algae on the macrandra to me...

I also have a hybrid tank like you (just w/o the clay  ) so far it has turned out to be the most maintanence free tank of them all  and it grows plants just as well as my NKP tanks! 

I am very curious to see how your tank does though.

Hopefully new pics soon!!!


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## DataGuru

So how come you went to all the trouble instead of just using soil as is?

Adding some fast growing floating plants may help balance things out.


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## swannee54

DataGuru I sincerely hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it the wrong way, but we would still be in the 50's if we all thought that way


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## AaronT

The tank will balance out eventually. The green beard algae is a persistant problem with any tank I seem to setup. I think there is something in the water supply here that triggers it. I've had this issue with Aquasoil as well. After several weeks it settles down and the plants look great.


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## Patchy

I've got a set up very similar to this tank, however the substrate is alot simpler. 1-1.5 inch Laterite  (dug from Werribee, an outer Melbourne suburb) With a good layer of mulm (fish only tank for about a year) and peat underneath. All capped off with 1inch 2-3mm inert gravel.

The tank has 2.5wpg t5 lighting and CO2 at 1bps (not sure of actualy ppm but will find out soon). This tank is mainly stocked with swords and they go nuts. This is the tank quite a while back about a month after set up









This is when it really started to grow

















And now the swords are all trying to grow emersed. I will try get pics later.

The only water collumn ferts are NFS Cichlid formula, NLS TheraA and other treats. I feed very generously with an auto timer (5 times a day). I did put root tabs under each sword (Seachem Florish Tabs) but that was during tank set up and i havent bothered replacing them in about a year now. 
Strange thing is i didnt get much of an algae bloom during tank set up (filters were fully cycled). I did get some green beard algae but that went away pretty quickly, then i went though a slow and long (2 month) BBA cycle. After that i only get spot algae when i am really lazy and let phosphates creep up to 3ppm. However your higher light might be diciding difference.


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## AaronT

That's some very healthy growth you've got going there. Dosing phosphates still has occured to me and I may give that a try. Also, down the road the potassium does get limited and needs to be dosed. The idea behind the soil base is mostly to eliminate the need for nitrogen and trace dosing in the long-term.


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## DataGuru

swannee54 said:


> DataGuru I sincerely hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it the wrong way, but we would still be in the 50's if we all thought that way


ROFLMAO
I don't get the impression from what I've read, that people were using soil as a substrate in aquaria back then. My impression is that it is a fairly recent thing that soil is catching on as a substrate.

You're posting in the e-natural forum where we use soil without doing much at all to it. LOL Maybe let it air out overnite. other than that, and adding crushed minerals, we don't do much of anything to it.

I have 8 soil based tanks now and all are happy and low maintence.. Just gotta top them off and pull/prune plants every couple of weeks. Don't hafta dink with ferts or CO2. everyone's happy.


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## bpimm

AaronT,

It would be an interesting test to set up an identical tank to what you just set up, only use the soil as is without mineralization and leave out the clay. then compare the results of both tanks over time. It would have to be done in the same location using the same materials and water. I'll keep it in mind as a future test when I have the space and time to do it. then we could see what the long term effects would be. maybe even add in a strict El natural tank to the mix also.

I have a strict El natural I just set up to compare to my existing tank that has a soil substrate with 2.5 WPG and pressure CO2, but they weren't set up at the same time.


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## AaronT

I'm setting up my 75 gallon tank tomorrow using the same method I did with this tank.

I'm using this method because I've seen SCMurphy use it in several tanks with great success. All of his tanks seem to go through this initial bloom just as mine has so I'm not terribly worried. Also, this tank will be running UV sterilization as it is in the living room and I can't afford a green water period this time. 

I'll also be using milder lighting as well so we'll see if those two things make a difference.


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## Tony65

DataGuru said:


> ROFLMAO
> I don't get the impression from what I've read, that people were using soil as a substrate in aquaria back then. My impression is that it is a fairly recent thing that soil is catching on as a substrate.


DataGuru,

I can confirm what swannee54 is getting at with the references to the 1950's - this is what attracted me to El Natural to start with (btw, just so we're clear, I'm a 60's child!  )

When I was investigating setting up my first tank back in 1981 I found a (US produced) pamphlet from my grandparents dated from the 1950's advocating the use of garden soil. This was the thing to do in fishkeeping from that time, and up to almost a century before. It must've worked then too, otherwise people would have given up aquaria long before power filters and CO2 injectors appeared on the scene.

I'll try and find the pamphlet again (I think it's in my parents attic somewhere).

Tracking down historical fishkeeping literature can prove very interesting indeed.


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## bpimm

Once again with the advent of technology what worked for years is forgotten for a time. 

If you do find the pamphlet please scan it and post it, that will be some interesting reading.


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## onemyndseye

Hasnt the Dutch also using the same basic principals for many years now?

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## bpimm

Thats where I got the idea 15 years ago when I started with soil.


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## Tony65

bpimm said:


> Once again with the advent of technology what worked for years is forgotten for a time.
> 
> If you do find the pamphlet please scan it and post it, that will be some interesting reading.


I'll see what I can do. I'm assuming it's in the attic somewhere; I haven't seen it for well over half my lifetime though!


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## AaronT

Here's the 75 gallon I setup finally yesterday. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-what-ive-been-doing-the-past.html#post244306

I posted in the aquascaping forum rather than here in hopes of getting some helpful feedback on the 'scape.


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## Steven_Chong

Aaron, I just wanted to say how cool this project is. The first time I heard of this "El Natural" concept, I was pretty much turned off because it seemed limited compared to other options (perhaps just because Walstad herself is more of a scientist and not an artist?). However, this tank idea is cool, and what I got was that even if you don't want to go full-blown El-Natural, there's still a lot that could be learned from the method, and a lot of grey area to experiment between Full-nutzness, and Full-el-Natural.

Just like in real life when you walk around with a T-shirt and shorts. XD


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## AaronT

Thanks Steven.  I can't take credit for the idea at all though. One of the members in our club has been using this method for over a decade and I finally got up the nerve to give it a try.


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## Freemann

As I have said this in Posts in APC and in APD (Re:Subject:earthworm castings) years ago, here is an article that refers to my tanks aswell on this (Natural Fertilizer for planted tanks) I have been using Greek Forest Soil from Decidious trees for the last 27 years I never even bothered to boil or do anything else with it, I would remove the stones and big wood pieces out of it add some handfulls from localy extracted laterite I collected myself and dump 5 cm of it in the tank wet it to turn into mud add 3-4 cm gravel on top and that was it there would be initial algae in this tanks for 2 months but once they stabilized they would go perfect with no problem whatsoever for 3 years. I have made 100's for myself and friends ALL of them had incredible success. I have used this approach with MH lots of times tons of light in some cases, also some tanks had CO2 and some did not I never used column ferts. This days I try masochistic experiments using a ton of ferts in the column.


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## AaronT

*Time for an Update*

Here's a tank update as of this afternoon. I'm still having some green water issues, but the beard algae/ diatom algae has all cleared up. I also have some new inhabitants because the ones I added made more. 

Scape Update:









Baby Niger Otto (Lil' Brudder):









Furcata Rainbow Fry (I found 3):


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## hooha

any updates?


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## Kelley

Aaron,
How frequently do you do water changes for this tank? I am considering using this method or a different soil-based method rather than the EI method that I use now for a shrimp-only tank. My tap water is very high in copper and I am having trouble keeping inverts. Do your shrimp do well in these tanks? 

Thanks!


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## DataGuru

I have a 20 gallon NPT specifically for cherry shrimp. They seem to do well in my NPTs.


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## Kelley

Thanks for the tip, Betty.


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## AaronT

I keep cherries and amanos in this tank now and they both are doing fine. I do weekly water changes give or take a few days. I keep my tanks open top so I do a water change since I have to top them off anyhow. Otherwise, I might let them go 2-3 weeks before a change.

I just did a trim. I'll post a pic when it grows back in.


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## AaronT

Here are some pictures of a 10 gallon tank I setup in the exact same manner a few days after the 20 gallon tank had been setup.

You can see the fucatas rainbows showing off the each other in this pic. 









Here's a shot from above:


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## treesmcdonald

How is this tank doing? Any up dates? I have been thinking about doing a hybrid tank for a while now so I'm curious to see how your tank is doing.


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## AaronT

Both of them are doing pretty well. I've found that I cannot dose much at all or I get algae outbreaks. I'm waiting for regrowth from a large trim and then I'll try to remember to post some pics.


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## DataGuru

That makes sense. In an established NPT, floating plants typically don't do well, but rooted plants do. I'm assuming that's because of a lack of nutrients/etc in the water column.


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## AaronT

DataGuru said:


> That makes sense. In an established NPT, floating plants typically don't do well, but rooted plants do. I'm assuming that's because of a lack of nutrients/etc in the water column.


Yup.  I've had some potassium deficiencies and have dosed that very moderately. If I dose too much...poof comes the algae again.


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## Robert Hudson

> DataGuru I sincerely hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it the wrong way, but we would still be in the 50's if we all thought that way


Well I hope you do not take this the wrong way, and I don't mean anything personal by it, but thats ridiculous. This forum is mostly about using the principals around Diana Walstads book, and the book was not written in the 50s.

Aaron, you have an interesting looking tank, but you have been plagued with algae from the start, and it doesn't look like its ever gotten better. You are adding fertilizer to the water and adding C02. There is nothing "el natural" about your tank. You are using clay and soil. I guess thats why you are calling it natural?

The whole idea of a "natural" tank is to use a soil based substrate to provide minerals, and fish waste to provide NPK, and bacteria in the substrate to provide C02, add nothing to the water column, and do very little water changes. I don't believe you are doing any of those things, right?

The soil you used could be providing NPK and trace minerals. If it contained a large amount of organic material such as manure and compost, it could be releasing large amounts of ammonia. The clay you added adds a source of oxidized iron and silicate to the mix. Oxidized iron will not be used by the plants until it gets into solution. That would require some kind of organic acid or chealate. The silicates would be the cause of some algae problems.

You could have accomplished the same thing with a fired clay gravel instead of messy raw clay. I would speculate if you had used a clay gravel, and soil that was aerated to release ammonia, and a trace amount of peat, you would not have had the algae problems. Get rid of your C02, and then you would have a "El natural" tank, more or less.


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## AaronT

Easy Robert. I don't mind a little friendly debate, but you've pretty much come in here and called me an idiot. Easy on the tone there please.



Robert Hudson said:


> Aaron, you have an interesting looking tank, but you have been plagued with algae from the start, and it doesn't look like its ever gotten better. You are adding fertilizer to the water and adding C02. There is nothing "el natural" about your tank. You are using clay and soil. I guess thats why you are calling it natural?
> 
> The whole idea of a "natural" tank is to use a soil based substrate to provide minerals, and fish waste to provide NPK, and bacteria in the substrate to provide C02, add nothing to the water column, and do very little water changes. I don't believe you are doing any of those things, right?


What's so unnatural about soil and clay? It doesn't get any more natural than that? 


> The soil you used could be providing NPK and trace minerals. If it contained a large amount of organic material such as manure and compost, it could be releasing large amounts of ammonia. The clay you added adds a source of oxidized iron and silicate to the mix. Oxidized iron will not be used by the plants until it gets into solution. That would require some kind of organic acid or chealate. The silicates would be the cause of some algae problems.


The reason for processing the soil the way I did was to insure that there was very little fertilizer / ammonia available to the water column. Even Diana says that an aired out bag of soil is better than a fresh one. This is essentially what I did. The rinsing and soaking part is to remove any possible fertilizers. As for the clay, that is why you don't need to use much. The clay also serves as a binder allowing the soil to settle back down after being disturbed.



> You could have accomplished the same thing with a fired clay gravel instead of messy raw clay.


Now who's not being natural?  My soil recipe is based off of soil analysis of wetland soils. They generally have some natural clay content and are mineralized.

Patience Daniel Son...patience.


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## littleguy

Aaron - I think this is an interesting post, and thanks for being honest with your observations. It's easy to tell everyone about success stories, but many of us (myself included) are embarassed to admit algae outbreaks, poor plant growth, etc.

I think one of the cool things about the el natural forum is that there are a lot of unconventional thinkers and experimentalists here. Many folks here aren't penned in by rules and constraints. There are many risks involved with doing it a new way, but to me that's how we learn new things. Diana Walstad's ideas were considered radical before we all started reading her book.

Aaron I'm glad you posted on this board.


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## AaronT

littleguy said:


> Aaron - I think this is an interesting post, and thanks for being honest with your observations. It's easy to tell everyone about success stories, but many of us (myself included) are embarassed to admit algae outbreaks, poor plant growth, etc.
> 
> I think one of the cool things about the el natural forum is that there are a lot of unconventional thinkers and experimentalists here. Many folks here aren't penned in by rules and constraints. There are many risks involved with doing it a new way, but to me that's how we learn new things. Diana Walstad's ideas were considered radical before we all started reading her book.
> 
> Aaron I'm glad you posted on this board.


Thanks.  That's the basic idea of it all. I love experimented with new setups. I'm terrible at obeying the 'if it ain't broke' rule of thumb.


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## ianculescu

Aaron, thanks for sharing the results of your experiments, ultimately we all read this forum to get insight and knowledge.
Not to change the subject, but where did you get the Colorquartz? I'm also in the Washington DC area and I'd appreciate a clue.

Thanks, 
Cris.


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## AaronT

Cris,

I appreciate the encouragement. I got the Colorquartz from a place in Linthicum. 
Metro Sealant & Waterproofing Supply &nbsp410-789-7400
1041 West Nursery Road
Linthicum MD 21090
* Distributor - Floors

They have a dealer locator on the 3M Worldwide website. It's a bit tricky to navigate, but it's useful.

Okay, now I have to plug the local club. Come check us out some time. You'll meet some great people and probably go home with bag fulls of plants for cheap.


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## AaronT

I promised an update and here it is. Algae free for 2 months running now.  Growth on everything has been gorgeous. The red plant is Rotala sp. 'colorata' with Rotala macrandra 'green' still in its original place behind it. I added the rocks because it no longer houses furcatas rainbows. It now has a pair of Apistogramma viejita 'gold' cichlids and some very frightened cherry shrimp. The foreground is Crassula helmsii now.










Here's a closeup of Rotala sp. 'colorata'.









Also, here's a link to my 75 gallon journal with the same substrate setup - http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/32992-what-ive-been-doing-the-past.html


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## Kelley

Aaron,
Congrats on the two algae-free months! Now that you have had a little time to evaluate this method, what are your thoughts about it? Do you get more or less growth than with your past set ups? How does algae compare? Do different plants grow better or worse than others? Also, do you recommend this for beginners? Are there any negatives to this set-up? 

Thank you for tanking the time to document all of this!


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## treesmcdonald

Kelley said:


> Aaron,
> Congrats on the two algae-free months! Now that you have had a little time to evaluate this method, what are your thoughts about it? Do you get more or less growth than with your past set ups? How does algae compare? Do different plants grow better or worse than others? Also, do you recommend this for beginners? Are there any negatives to this set-up?
> 
> Thank you for tanking the time to document all of this!


Kelly asked all the questions I was going to lol. I remember reading about this method a loooooooong time ago when I first started researching planted aquariums. Do to time and money restraints i didn't really get to start up a sophisticated tank until two years ago. By then most people had moved on to water column fertilization so I decided to go that route. But after trying a soil layer in my 10g I'm thinking about redoing the 55 with an amended soil layer with the CO2 and high light that I already have.

Thanks for the update,
Errin


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## AaronT

Kelley said:


> Aaron,
> Congrats on the two algae-free months!


Thanks. 



> Now that you have had a little time to evaluate this method, what are your thoughts about it?


Now that it's finally settled in I love it. 
Pros:
- it's cheap
- no need to worry about dosing

Cons:
- it requires a good amount of work and patience initially



> Do you get more or less growth than with your past set ups?


I'd say it's about the same as when I have my dosing in check in the water column tanks I keep. The nice thing about it is that it's very consistant growth. It also really makes the reds pop because you can run the tank with zero nitrates in the water column.



> How does algae compare?


I'm pretty convinced there are silicates in my water supply. I get this green fuzz / pelt algae in every new setup I do. Once it's gone it's usually gone. So far there is little to no algae in this tank now that things are settling in. Right now I only see a tiny bit of green spot on the rocks.



> Do different plants grow better or worse than others?


Yes. Notice I have a lot of Rotalas in there? Rotalas do better with low nitrates in the water and less carbonates in the water. I tried Ludwigia inclinata verticillata 'Pantanal' in this tank and it melted completely. So far, that's the only one. The friend who gave me this 'recipe' says that Blyxa also won't survive without water column dosing.



> Also, do you recommend this for beginners?


Definitely not. Not because they are any less capable of pulling it off. More so because they're likely to get frustrated and give up before they ever see good results. Also, I think it helps to start with dosing to give oneself a better understanding of what's going on.



> Are there any negatives to this set-up?


It's touchy. Resist the urge to add ferts and you'll be glad you did. 



> Thank you for tanking the time to document all of this!


You're quite welcome. Sharing ideas in this community is what it's all about.


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## Kelley

Thank you for answering my questions, Aaron! When I am a little more advanced, I think that I will try this one. Maybe for the next tank......


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## AaronT

Kelley said:


> Thank you for answering my questions, Aaron! When I am a little more advanced, I think that I will try this one. Maybe for the next tank......


Sure thing Kelley. Don't hesitate to ask any question you might have along the way. I know I bugged my friend to no end to make sure I did everything correctly.


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## Steven_Chong

That R. colorata is really impressive. O.O


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## AaronT

Steven_Chong said:


> That R. colorata is really impressive. O.O


Thanks.  My LFS got a plant in from Oriental that they called Rotala indica 'red'. This looks to be the same plant as 'colorata' so it has me wondering if this is the real indica...sorry off topic I know.

Anyhow, I went to a local fish club meeting today that was having a photography workshop. I knew I had messed with something I shouldn't have. Apparently my ISO setting was way off. I'll try to get some less grainy pictures up sometime this week.


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## Rider

DataGuru said:


> So how come you went to all the trouble instead of just using soil as is?


My thoughts also. When I set up my third tank, I wanted to create a biotope of a nearby river (the Campaspe, in northern Victoria, for the benefit of any other Aussies who might be here), so I went to the river, collected some mud, gravel, sticks and plants, put them in a tank, added water and fish. OK, I get algae, but so do real rivers.


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## AaronT

Rider said:


> My thoughts also. When I set up my third tank, I wanted to create a biotope of a nearby river (the Campaspe, in northern Victoria, for the benefit of any other Aussies who might be here), so I went to the river, collected some mud, gravel, sticks and plants, put them in a tank, added water and fish. OK, I get algae, but so do real rivers.


Chances are, they type of soil you collected is the type of soil I'm trying to replicate and it already has a significant amount of clay in it. This is just a way to control how much of each component there is to some degree. Also, rivers around here tend to be polluted quite a bit.

Here are some slightly better pictures than before:









Here's a macro shot of the Rotala sp. 'colorata' and Rotala macrandra 'green' in that tank:


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## Bert H

Hey Aaron, I've never been intetersted in these types of tanks, but reading through this whole thread has given me quite a different insight into the workings of this type system. Perhaps someday when I have more time on my hands, I might set up a small tank this way. Thanks for taking the time to document it all. I have what is probably a stupid question, but is there a time frame for the nutrients in the soil mixture to be used up so that water column dosing becomes a necessity? Also, how much of a mess to you create when you uproot/replant - especially with plants with large root systems like large Crypts?


----------



## AaronT

Bert H said:


> Hey Aaron, I've never been intetersted in these types of tanks, but reading through this whole thread has given me quite a different insight into the workings of this type system. Perhaps someday when I have more time on my hands, I might set up a small tank this way. Thanks for taking the time to document it all. I have what is probably a stupid question, but is there a time frame for the nutrients in the soil mixture to be used up so that water column dosing becomes a necessity? Also, how much of a mess to you create when you uproot/replant - especially with plants with large root systems like large Crypts?


I'm glad I could inspire you a bit Bert. It took me a while to get the courage to try it myself. The friend I got this technique from had tanks that were about 10 years old still growing nice plants.

Just like any other tank uprooting plants can be messy. To keep it to a minimum turn the filter off and any other flow such as a powerhead. Uproot plants slowly by pulling gently at the base of the plants. I haven't uprooted the Rotalas yet. I just keep cutting them back and letting the tops regrow. So far I've topped them about 8 times since setting this up and they're still going strong.


----------



## treesmcdonald

Great new pics! Especially of the Rotala sp. 'colorata' and Rotala macrandra 'green'.


----------



## SKSuser

Awesome tank. rayer: 

A little hint from a ceramicist:
Dry clay accepts water more evenly than moist clay does. If you want to skip the clay mixing step, start with clay that is bone dry... it'll melt right quick.
I know you had fun making clay slop, but some people might rather just be done with it.


----------



## AaronT

SKSuser said:


> Awesome tank. rayer:
> 
> A little hint from a ceramicist:
> Dry clay accepts water more evenly than moist clay does. If you want to skip the clay mixing step, start with clay that is bone dry... it'll melt right quick.
> I know you had fun making clay slop, but some people might rather just be done with it.


Thanks for the compliment. 

True, I could have gone that route as well. I did have fun making clay slop. How did you know? 

I already have this huge lump of clay here though. I wonder if I could get the powder by letting some of it dry out and crushing it? I'm really enjoying the growth I get with these setups so I'm sure there will be a next time.


----------



## DataGuru

I just pulled a HUGE amazon sword about 2 foot wide and 2 foot tall out of a 29 gallon NPT. Pulled gently... wiggled and jiggled, and repeated till it came out. It made a nice mud puddle out of the tank. I just covered the worst with gravel and did a couple of large partial water changes. It's still a big hazy but not bad at all.


----------



## AaronT

DataGuru said:


> I just pulled a HUGE amazon sword about 2 foot wide and 2 foot tall out of a 29 gallon NPT. Pulled gently... wiggled and jiggled, and repeated till it came out. It made a nice mud puddle out of the tank. I just covered the worst with gravel and did a couple of large partial water changes. It's still a big hazy but not bad at all.


Yeah, there's pretty much no way to not make soup when pulling a huge sword plant like that. Well, there is a way, but it takes literally hours of patience. You can pull one root at a time very slowly. Like I said, it's not very efficient, especially if you have a diatom filter to clean things up after the fact.


----------



## Steven_Chong

It's almost weird how similar those two are in color . . . but it looks stunning


----------



## hooha

I'm curious to see what the water column parameters in this type of setup would be.....have your ever checked them?


----------



## AaronT

hooha said:


> I'm curious to see what the water column parameters in this type of setup would be.....have your ever checked them?


Well, I have this weird situation. We live in an apartment in someone's home. Our neighbor (they're good friends so we're not allowed to call them landlords ) runs the hotwater through a calcium filter to harden it. Whenever I do water changes I try to trickle the cold water in because it comes out with nicer parameters at a pH of about 6.8 to begin with.

I got lazy and was using warm water, which of course mixes the two. The plants don't do as well then. I collected some free RO water yesterday, i.e. snow, and I'm going to add some Equilibrium to it to get the GH to about 3 and leave the KH at 0 and see how it does with that setup. In my experience the majority of plants I've encountered do better with softer and softer water.

I have an airstone running on very low to keep crashes from occuring.


----------



## Robert Hudson

Here you go questioning my "tone" again. I find it so interesting that you can hear my voice, picture tone and inflection in your head from my writing. Is it my bad spelling?

My definition of "natural" is within the common parameters of this forum. The el natural forum. Diana's book. If just having raw clay as a substrate constitutes an "El natural" type tank in your mind, I think thats misleading to other people reading this forum for the first time. It is not to take anything away from you. You obviously do a great job growing plants. You have an outstanding collection of plants, (from what I hear) and the knowledge you have compiled from anectodal experience is something we would all benefit from. I know I would. I am just a bit concerned that the people in this forum are here to follow a more defined approach and would not fully appreciate what you are doing. Does that make sense?

I am sure the definition of a natural tank can go beyond just Diana's approach, but what is your definition of a naturaly balanced, low tech aquarium? There has to be more to it than just using clay... right? 

I am really trying to be as honest and down to earth about this as I know how to be. I am sorry if this seems offensive to you, but you must know you are kinda going against the grain of this forum. I know you knew that, because you are a smart kid. I am very interested in your aquarium and what you are doing with it, but it is not an "El natural" tank. Not even close.


----------



## bpimm

Robert Hudson said:


> but it is not an "El natural" tank. Not even close.


Maybe not, but I think it is a variant of an El Natural tank. It fits closer to this forum than any of the other forums on APC as the whole theory is different. root feeding vs leaf feeding. I think the new folks on this forum get a good balance of the El natural style as many of the responses quote Diana's Book and suggest reading it to start off with. as for Aaron's tank fitting this forum, I think it is a better fit here than anywhere else as it is a soil based tank with added clay. a lot of us add different things to the soil we use to try and give the plants what they need to thrive.

I have been using soil in my tanks for 15 years and had never heard of El Natural until I joined this forum, I have just recently set up my first full El Natural tank.

The majority of the people on these forums seem to use water column ferts of some kind so the dirt people tend to hang out in El Natural where the questions and answers seem to fit better.

Weather we use CO2 in a soil based tank or not, it is still a soil based tank and I believe it belongs here in this forum.

Brian


----------



## dennis

"El Natural with a twist" Soil amended with many of the typical dirt tank substances, capped with a fine gravel. Little to no addition of water column ferts. Sounds like the conventional notion of natural. CO2 and higher light are not necessarily "el natural" but heck, this has a "twist". Algae at the setup before the tank stabalizes- I've never heard of that with a true el natural tank.... oh wait.

At APC we try to encourage exploration and experimentation as that is how the hobby grows. We all learn by sharing our experiences with each other. With that spirit in mind, why can't a hobbyist combine the benefits of a soil base with the benefits of CO2 and light. Even better when they decided to share the experience- pit falls and successes- so we might all learn.

Personally, this idea fascinates me. To my mind, the idea that "el natural" is relegated to only certain things is not correct. I have seen plenty of posts by Diana herself encouraging people to experiment, explore and report what they find for the benefit of all. Why should that be suffocated because someone decides not to follow what some believe to be the only method for using natural concepts in a planted tank? Trying something new or a modified version? I see where that other poster was coming from.

I thank you Aaron for posting this thread to _APC's_ "el Natural" forum. I feel it is a fresh blending of ideas and concepts that anyone can learn from. I to agree this thread is best fit for this forum, even if it doe snot religiously follow the "rules".


----------



## AaronT

Robert Hudson said:


> Here you go questioning my "tone" again. I find it so interesting that you can hear my voice, picture tone and inflection in your head from my writing. Is it my bad spelling?
> 
> My definition of "natural" is within the common parameters of this forum. The el natural forum. Diana's book. If just having raw clay as a substrate constitutes an "El natural" type tank in your mind, I think thats misleading to other people reading this forum for the first time. It is not to take anything away from you. You obviously do a great job growing plants. You have an outstanding collection of plants, (from what I hear) and the knowledge you have compiled from anectodal experience is something we would all benefit from. I know I would. I am just a bit concerned that the people in this forum are here to follow a more defined approach and would not fully appreciate what you are doing. Does that make sense?
> 
> I am sure the definition of a natural tank can go beyond just Diana's approach, but what is your definition of a naturaly balanced, low tech aquarium? There has to be more to it than just using clay... right?
> 
> I am really trying to be as honest and down to earth about this as I know how to be. I am sorry if this seems offensive to you, but you must know you are kinda going against the grain of this forum. I know you knew that, because you are a smart kid. I am very interested in your aquarium and what you are doing with it, but it is not an "El natural" tank. Not even close.


It's pretty obvious at this point that we can't seem to get along Robert. So I'm willing to agree to disagree and move on.

Thank you to everyone who's encouraged me throughout this project. It certainly helped me get through the 'patience with algae' stage.  I'll continue to update this thread as time goes on.


----------



## hooha

Rock on! 

Have you ever measured the nitrate and phosphate levels in your tank? Just curious if it's near-zero, suggesting that the plants are basically getting nutrients from the substrate. If that's the case, I'd be curious to see what kind of growth you can get from moss or java fern or some other plant that would require water column ferts.


----------



## Robert Hudson

Common Aaron, don't give up so quick! You said you were open to honest debate. Some one can disagree with you and still be civil and friends right?



> With that spirit in mind, why can't a hobbyist combine the benefits of a soil base with the benefits of CO2 and light. Even better when they decided to share the experience- pit falls and successes- so we might all learn.


I absolutely agree with every word of that, but using intensive light and added C02 sytems is not low tech. Thats high tech. Aaron has a high tech tank with a soil substrate. There are many people who have done that, and are quite proud of it. Doesn't APC have a substrate/fertilizer forum? I bet I could find numerous posts about soil substrates.

Someone said this is revisiting the 50s. I was born in 1960, so the 50s are a little before me, but from what I understand the people did use soil and peat back then. There was no intensive light systems back then and co2 systems had not been invented yet. I don't think the undergravel filter was even invented yet. People had low tech plant tanks back then because high tech wasn't around, but there was no real science or methodology about it,

I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember the internet from the early to mid nineties, but from 95 to 99 or there abouts, Steve Pushak, AGA member, did a lot of studies on soil and clay substrates.It was during his time as technical advisor for the AGA. He devoted a whole WEB site to the subject. How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium Plants (cheap)!

Also during the 90s, a gentleman named Jim Kelly wrote an article about using Yuma soil, I forget what it was called, planted tank on a budget or something like that. It was one of the first articles written for the KRIB and has been there fore ever.

Ms. Walstad told me in our interview that she was inspired by Dorothy Reimer who used soil in her tank. Ms. Reimer is one of the founding members of the AGA.

All of these people were very serious about soil substrates, but they didn't necassarily call it low tech. It was their belief that providing a nutrient rich substrate was important to the overall health of the plants whether it was used with C02 or without. That was a pretty widely held belief in the AGA until Tom Barr came along and said substrate was unimportant.

Anyway, congratulations Aaron on your tank. It looks great and it was very interesting to see how it developed. I hope I did not sound condencending.

Dennis, lets hear about your low tech, soil based tank! What has your approach been?


----------



## AaronT

Robert Hudson said:


> I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember the internet from the early to mid nineties, but from 95 to 99 or there abouts, Steve Pushak, AGA member, did a lot of studies on soil and clay substrates.It was during his time as technical advisor for the AGA. He devoted a whole WEB site to the subject. How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium Plants (cheap)!


I certainly can't take credit for this particular method that I've chosen. I am old enough to remember the inception of the internet, though I wasn't near being into planted aquaria at the time.

Interesting read Robert. Thanks for posting the link to that article. Something there suprises me though. Mr. Pushak advises dosing macros. Every time I've tried dosing anything, bam! algae appears again. Perhaps dosing a little bit will come with time akin to the way Aquasoil/Powersand slowly loses its umph after a year or so of use.


----------



## hooha

sooo.....any updates?


----------



## AaronT

hooha said:


> sooo.....any updates?


Actually, I took these tanks down recently. Not because they weren't doing well, but because I consolidated them into the "Rotala Rainbow" tank that I posted recently in the aquascaping forum.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Well this was certainly a great tank. I learned a great deal from reading over the whole thread last night, and wanted to thank you for taking the time to document it all.


----------



## AaronT

Terra Incognita said:


> Well this was certainly a great tank. I learned a great deal from reading over the whole thread last night, and wanted to thank you for taking the time to document it all.


Thanks. You're quite welcome. Honestly, in the long run it's actually easier to document something like this in detail. After a while people ask how you did it anyhow.


----------



## strange_screams

ok, off topic question here..

I've been having problems getting tank stands or tables i feel are strudy enough and in the the first pictures i see the shelving unit your using, i have one in black, and you dont just have one tank on it but two, did it hold well without any bowing ect? and is it the 5 foot shleving unit or the 3 foot shleving unit of the same type? they are very sturdy, but it just hadnt occured to me to use it for my tanks.....


----------



## AaronT

strange_screams said:


> ok, off topic question here..
> 
> I've been having problems getting tank stands or tables i feel are strudy enough and in the the first pictures i see the shelving unit your using, i have one in black, and you dont just have one tank on it but two, did it hold well without any bowing ect? and is it the 5 foot shleving unit or the 3 foot shleving unit of the same type? they are very sturdy, but it just hadnt occured to me to use it for my tanks.....


I put 2x4s across the length of the shelf for extra support. There was only slight bowing. You'd definitely want to set it up on a solid floor such as hardwood, concrete or tile. This was a heavy duty gauge 48" x 18" shelving unit.


----------



## AaronT

For those that haven't seen it yet I wrote up an article on the process that I'm using. You can read about it here.


----------



## Tube

Aaron, did you ever find a need to add anything to the water column? I set up a tank very similar to yours with your help back in November. All plants have now filled in very heavily but their health is at a decline. Small pinholes and stunted growth have affected all of my Rotalas. I use straight RO water and dose excel regularly as ive opted to not use co2. Two weeks ago I began adding iron to bring out the reds in the Rotalas, it did immediately help, though now ive switched over to straight Flourish in hopes it may help with the pinhole/stunting issue. I do imagine I might need to add K at some point, though how much I am unsure. I also want to avoid overreacting and start adding all things at once. The tank seems very well balanced at the moment and I do not want to disturb that. Any insight or advice you could provide would be much appreciated.


----------



## AaronT

Tube said:


> Aaron, did you ever find a need to add anything to the water column? I set up a tank very similar to yours with your help back in November. All plants have now filled in very heavily but their health is at a decline. Small pinholes and stunted growth have affected all of my Rotalas. I use straight RO water and dose excel regularly as ive opted to not use co2. Two weeks ago I began adding iron to bring out the reds in the Rotalas, it did immediately help, though now ive switched over to straight Flourish in hopes it may help with the pinhole/stunting issue. I do imagine I might need to add K at some point, though how much I am unsure. I also want to avoid overreacting and start adding all things at once. The tank seems very well balanced at the moment and I do not want to disturb that. Any insight or advice you could provide would be much appreciated.


Yes, I found that the Rotalas need a boost after a little while, say 3 months or so. The potash that gets added in the beginning is the initial potassium source and does run out eventually.

Potassium seems to be the limiting factor in this type of setup. If I do dose potassium I only dose about 0.5 ppm twice a week. That doesn't seem like hardly any at all, but it's enough and anymore seems to lead to algae outbreaks.

Also, can I ask why you are using pure RO water? You may be better off using a 50/50 mix and tap and RO to give the plants the calcium, magnesium and potassium found in your water source when doing water changes.


----------



## hooha

have you tried adding more potassium in the initial setup? I'd like to see my setups lasting for at least a year without muss or fuss


----------



## AaronT

hooha said:


> have you tried adding more potassium in the initial setup? I'd like to see my setups lasting for at least a year without muss or fuss


No, but one thing I did try when I moved back in December was to set up one tank with the Colorquartz cap and another tank with a cap of Flourite. The tank with the Flourite cap has not had any potassium defficiencies and the Colorquartz tank has. I may switch to using Flourite Black or Flourite Black Sand in the future for all of my substrate capping needs.


----------



## Tube

I use straight RO because i wanted soft water, didnt like the amount of K that was added using Seachem Equilibrium, and havent had any issues until present. Shrimp and fish appear to be fine, however, there are nearly zero snails in the tank even with moderate feeding.

To add to the last comment, I capped my soil with Flourite Black Sand, however, began to see potassium deficiencies 5 months after initial planting (apparently). 

Ive heard that micro deficiencies take up to two weeks before you see a difference, unlike macros which can be almost immediate. With this in mind, i will continue with the flourish, if nothing improves, will add K at approx 1.25 PPM (pfertz) weekly.


----------



## AaronT

Tube said:


> I use straight RO because i wanted soft water, didnt like the amount of K that was added using Seachem Equilibrium, and havent had any issues until present. Shrimp and fish appear to be fine, however, there are nearly zero snails in the tank even with moderate feeding.
> 
> To add to the last comment, I capped my soil with Flourite Black Sand, however, began to see potassium deficiencies 5 months after initial planting (apparently).
> 
> Ive heard that micro deficiencies take up to two weeks before you see a difference, unlike macros which can be almost immediate. With this in mind, i will continue with the flourish, if nothing improves, will add K at approx 1.25 PPM (pfertz) weekly.


Is there any chance you can take pictures of the plants in question?

Unfortunately, I'm not sure there is any way to avoid adding K to any soil tank over time even if it is just a very tiny amount.


----------



## Tube

These two show it the best. The second shows more of the stunting. Thanks for your help.


----------



## AaronT

Yeah, I would definitely say that is a potassium issue. The micronutrients in the soil should pretty well never run out.


----------



## wantabe23

Can any one confirm that micros can take up to a week to show? I would like to know

Hey this is a great thread, good idea with the mix of the hight tech and low tech, best of both worlds


----------



## CraigThor

Aaron,

I have shrimp tank that I want to try this on. How would this affect the cycle to remove all plants, shrimp and add this into the tank. I currently use Tahitian Moon Sand as my substrate. I m wanting a deeper substrate and this might be ideal as I also don't want to does the tank with nutrients also.

Craig


----------



## AaronT

Craig,

I would be very careful to keep an eye on the ammonia levels when you first change it over. It will basically require a complete teardown to get the soil in place.

Can you keep the filter running on another tank so it is still seeded once the change over is complete?


----------



## CraigThor

AaronT said:


> Craig,
> 
> I would be very careful to keep an eye on the ammonia levels when you first change it over. It will basically require a complete teardown to get the soil in place.
> 
> Can you keep the filter running on another tank so it is still seeded once the change over is complete?


I read I can boil the soil to speed the reduction of ammonia in the tank. I will probably keep my filter running on a rubbermaid tub with my plants.

Craig


----------



## AaronT

CraigThor said:


> I read I can boil the soil to speed the reduction of ammonia in the tank. I will probably keep my filter running on a rubbermaid tub with my plants.
> 
> Craig


That is true, but that won't *mineralize* the soil. Mineralizing the soil is about a lot more than just removing the ammonia. It converts the NH4 to NH3 instead of removing it and also mineralizes all of the other nutrients making them bio-available.

It's worth the extra time to use the method I've described.


----------



## Robert Hudson

> I would definitely say that is a potassium issue. The micronutrients in the soil should pretty well never run


Potassium is a macro, not a micro!



> I read I can boil the soil to speed the reduction of ammonia in the tank. I will probably keep my filter running on a rubbermaid tub with my plants.


Diana Walstad in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium advocates simply airing out the soil to release ammonia, not boiling it. Just exposing it to air will release ammonia. This can be done in a matter of hours. What Aaron is talking about by mineralization, I presume, is making oxidized minerals water soluable, such as iron. Oxidized iron is is Fe+3 where as water soluble iron is Fe+2 which plants use much easier. This happens naturally in the aquarium when oxidized minerals are broken down by organic acids and compounds. Top soil, potting soil and the like are rich in organic compounds, so this process should not tank long to happen naturally. If you want to boil your soil, go ahead, but I don't see the point.


----------



## AaronT

Robert Hudson said:


> Potassium is a macro, not a micro!


Yes, I know. That's why my statement about potassium was separate from my statement regardning micronutrients.


----------



## Tube

Things are looking up! Pinholes have started to recede after two weeks of dosing K @ 1.25PPM /wk. No algae issues to report, i was concerned that surpassing your recommended dose would lead to algae. Thanks Aaron for your help.


----------



## bratyboy2

Any new updates?!?! love the tank. and sorry but why did you take the rainbows out?


----------



## AaronT

Tube said:


> Things are looking up! Pinholes have started to recede after two weeks of dosing K @ 1.25PPM /wk. No algae issues to report, i was concerned that surpassing your recommended dose would lead to algae. Thanks Aaron for your help.


I'm glad to hear it. It really doesn't take much at all, almost as if it just needs a little boost of potassium. 



> Any new updates?!?! love the tank. and sorry but why did you take the rainbows out?


The 20 gallon long from page 1 of this thread has been taken down for about a year now. I still have the rainbows in the new setup though, more of them in fact. Check it out here.


----------



## yum

so the pinholes actually repaired themselves?


----------



## AaronT

yum said:


> so the pinholes actually repaired themselves?


I've never seen that happen. I think he meant to say that the new leaves do not have the pinholes.


----------



## xpistalpetex

hey aaron i got 2 questions?
was the topsoil from homedepot earth gro?
if i decide to boil the soil to fasten the removal of ammonia after that how long should i air it out for mineralize 2 weeks?


----------



## AaronT

Hi xpistalpetex,

The topsoil I got was from Home Depot. I wrote a whole article on the mineralizing process here.

I've included a list of materials in the article with a link to a picture of the exact topsoil that I used.

There's no need to boil the soil. The mineralizing process should only take 2-3 weeks now that the sun is nice and warm again and that will take care of the ammonia in a much more usable fashion.


----------



## looking4roselines

I just finished the mineralizing process. 3 soaking and drying cycles took about two weeks.

I think I might have used a bit too much clay though. Maybe 10 lbs of clay to 50 lbs of top soil. Slightly over the recommended amount.

Whats the down side to the overuse of clay, other than the cloudy red water?

I also just planted the HC and plan on growing it emmersed. This should counter the initial effects of the green water issues right?


----------



## AaronT

looking4roselines said:


> I just finished the mineralizing process. 3 soaking and drying cycles took about two weeks.
> 
> I think I might have used a bit too much clay though. Maybe 10 lbs of clay to 50 lbs of top soil. Slightly over the recommended amount.
> 
> Whats the down side to the overuse of clay, other than the cloudy red water?
> 
> I also just planted the HC and plan on growing it emmersed. This should counter the initial effects of the green water issues right?


That's a lot of clay! I only use about 1 - 1.5 lbs. of clay in a 50 gallon tank. I'm not sure what the effects will be from using that much clay. It may end up not being a problem at all.

Yes, you can start the plants emersed. Starting with lots of plants is the key to getting a headstart on algae no matter what type of tank you are setting up.


----------



## looking4roselines

lol. Its about 20% clay. Suggested amount was 10-15%?

I bought 2 bags from Laguna and used almost half of one bag.


----------



## AaronT

looking4roselines said:


> lol. Its about 20% clay. Suggested amount was 10-15%?
> 
> I bought 2 bags from Laguna and used almost half of one bag.


Suggested amount is about 5-10% by volume, not necessarily weight. Should I edit the article to be more clear?


----------



## looking4roselines

ehh???

Thats one of the reasons why I dont cook.


----------



## AaronT

looking4roselines said:


> ehh???
> 
> Thats one of the reasons why I dont cook.


 Well, cooking and baking are two different things. Baking is more precise so don't discount cooking just yet. 

Anyhow, the clay you used should be okay. What size tank will it be? It might be good to test it out on a small tank first.


----------



## looking4roselines

AaronT said:


> Well, cooking and baking are two different things. Baking is more precise so don't discount cooking just yet.
> 
> Anyhow, the clay you used should be okay. What size tank will it be? It might be good to test it out on a small tank first.


Too late to test on a smaller scale. I had already capped the soil and started growing HC and other plants emmersed. I can post some pics once I get home from work.

I can already see larger leaf growth in 2 days on the HC.

It's a 60 gallon tank. I will ask you for some suggestions through PM on the aquascape in a pm since its off topic.


----------



## looking4roselines

This is what 10lbs of clay to 50lbs of top soil looks like...









And...I grew impatient and flooded the tank after 4 days. But suprisingly, the water wasnt cloudy from the excessive use of red clay.








Does the plant from the left look familiar to you Aarron?


----------



## AaronT

That's definitely a lot of clay. My soil still looks dark brown in color after adding the clay. 

That's a good spot for the 'Red Devil' sword. It makes a great backround plant.


----------



## looking4roselines

Progress report:

3 weeks later...

























Taken yesterday.....

















I ditched the HC and will be planting some UG in the foreground.

I haven't dosed a thing yet.


----------



## AaronT

Sweet.  Thanks for sharing your progress with us so far.


----------



## torpedobarb

wow.. I am thinking about doing this now.. I am totally inspired. amazing!


----------



## AaronT

torpedobarb said:


> wow.. I am thinking about doing this now.. I am totally inspired. amazing!


I'm glad you're feeling inspired. I wrote up a more formal article in our Library here at APC.


----------



## torpedobarb

I am going to have to read that. it does get exhausting having to dose daily. it would be a huge undertaking when I do it though.

will I ever have to redo it for nutrients? or does it pretty much last forever?


----------



## AaronT

torpedobarb said:


> I am going to have to read that. it does get exhausting having to dose daily. it would be a huge undertaking when I do it though.
> 
> will I ever have to redo it for nutrients? or does it pretty much last forever?


It pretty well lasts forever. The fellow who introduced me to the concept has had tanks running for 15 years now. A very tiny dose of potassium weekly is needed after a few months of setup. I do mean tiny too, like 0.5 ppm is all it takes or they'll be algae.


----------



## looking4roselines

Looks like we got ourselves a new recruit.


----------



## Jag1980

Can I just use my Fluorite I already have instead of making the mud pie and just add the bulk minerals under my substrate? I will read this whole thread it this will work, instead of just the first page.


----------



## AaronT

Jag1980 said:


> Can I just use my Fluorite I already have instead of making the mud pie and just add the bulk minerals under my substrate? I will read this whole thread it this will work, instead of just the first page.


You can use Flourite as the top layer, but it doesn't have near the nutrients that the soil does. The mud is the whole point of the system. It should provide all of the necessary nitrogen, phosphorus and trace elements that your plants will need to grow well.

Reading this whole thread could be a daunting task by now. I suggest reading the article I wrote in the Library section to start off with. It should only take about 10 minutes to read.


----------



## zer0zax

Hey Aaron! Have you or SCMurphy tried mineralized soil without Co2? I want to give this a shot someday, but I am planning on using low light/no Co2. I plan to use mainly Cryptocoryne Affinis and a lot of cypress roots on the backwall with the tops growing emergent (They don't last long submersed). I think the hardwater crypts will love the minerals and I should have crazy root mass, just wondering how the slow growth would hold up.

It makes sense that the mineralized method would provide nutrients easier to plants as wetland water is constantly rising and falling throughout the years, exposing the soil to air and everything else imaginable before being submersed again. All of the lakes and ponds I've tromped around had very little fresh organic material under the top inch of substrate...


----------



## torpedobarb

looking4roselines... yes you did! I started the soil rinsing and drying last week.

I am looking for a link to where I can purchase the clay from. not to be picky.. but a direct link to the exact stuff I need. I googled red potting clay and there are so many different kinds. I know to stay away from polymer clays. if someone would do this it would be great. thanks, Ken


----------



## torpedobarb

will this sand work like the 3m colorquartz?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...10551_10001_49044_-1______?rFlag=true&cFlag=1


----------



## ingg

torpedobarb - for the blasting sand, I *think* so, but not sure. It is a sized sand anyhow.

For clay, look for pottery supply stores in your area, or look for folks making hand made pottery. I started googling pottery makers in my area, and then found a couple supply houses.


----------



## torpedobarb

I did find some clay.. here is a link to what I bought.. will this work?
http://www.****blick.com/zz332/31/


----------



## CobraGuppy

AaronT said:


> The friend who gave me this 'recipe' says that Blyxa also won't survive without water column dosing.


Arg, i was going to use this method to make an a tank with blyxa in it. Does this count me out 

Would i need to do all four basic ei dosing if i wanted to have blyxa with the mud soil?


----------



## AaronT

torpedobarb said:


> I did find some clay.. here is a link to what I bought.. will this work?
> http://www.****blick.com/zz332/31/


I'm not sure that stuff will work. It might be polymer based instead of real natural clay. The best way to source it is what ingg suggested. Let your fingers do the walking in the yellow pages for pottery shops. I called a local pottery store and asked where they get their clay from.

The blasting sand _should/I] be okay, though I've never tried it._


----------



## AaronT

CobraGuppy said:


> Arg, i was going to use this method to make an a tank with blyxa in it. Does this count me out
> 
> Would i need to do all four basic ei dosing if i wanted to have blyxa with the mud soil?


I still haven't attempted any Blyxa species so I can't say for sure.


----------



## AaronT

zer0zax said:


> Hey Aaron! Have you or SCMurphy tried mineralized soil without Co2? I want to give this a shot someday, but I am planning on using low light/no Co2. I plan to use mainly Cryptocoryne Affinis and a lot of cypress roots on the backwall with the tops growing emergent (They don't last long submersed). I think the hardwater crypts will love the minerals and I should have crazy root mass, just wondering how the slow growth would hold up.
> 
> It makes sense that the mineralized method would provide nutrients easier to plants as wetland water is constantly rising and falling throughout the years, exposing the soil to air and everything else imaginable before being submersed again. All of the lakes and ponds I've tromped around had very little fresh organic material under the top inch of substrate...


In short, yes it will work fine. Sean started using the method for many years without CO2 or bright lighting and he grew some amazing Crypts back then too.

That's exactly the reasoning behind mineralizing the soil.


----------



## zer0zax

Thanks!


----------



## CobraGuppy

has anyone used this method to grow blyxa before?


----------



## ingg

I'm growing blyxa japonica and aubertii in it right now, growing fine, only been in 2 months tho. Aubertii is dang near red, really cool.


----------



## cs_gardener

CobraGuppy said:


> Arg, i was going to use this method to make an a tank with blyxa in it. Does this count me out
> 
> Would i need to do all four basic ei dosing if i wanted to have blyxa with the mud soil?


I'm growing both Blyxa japonica (1 year or so) and B. aubertii (about 4 months) successfully with a soil underlayer and no fertilization except a low daily dose of gluteraldehyde (Excel substitute). I just traded in half my B aubertii. What I traded was about 18" tall with 30-40 leaves and a great golden-red color. I started with an 8-10" plant with maybe a dozen leaves so it definitely likes the conditions it's in. For the B japonica, I've taken to keeping the small plants when I thin them so they don't overgrow their spot too quickly. So no, you don't need to dose ferts in order to keep Blyxa happy.


----------



## CobraGuppy

Thanks for the input 
I really appreciate it


----------



## dawntwister

AaronT said:


> Here's the 75 gallon I setup finally yesterday. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-what-ive-been-doing-the-past.html#post244306
> 
> I posted in the aquascaping forum rather than here in hopes of getting some helpful feedback on the 'scape.


Lovely tank. I think it is great as it is.


----------



## fishyface

I've got a question for Aaron or anyone else who may know this but is there any way to speed the process of mineralization? At this rate and time of the year, it's gonna take me months to get a 75g tank up and running using this method.

Cheers and I look forward to trying something new!

Darryl


----------



## Robert Hudson

I grow Blyxa aubertii and japonica in nothing but gravel with no fertilizer. In other tanks I grow it in nothing but clay gravel. The plants grow, flower and grow some more. Catherine traded me her Blyxa aubertii. The thing is a monster. I still have it. It must have over 50 leaves on it and its loaded with flowers. Now Catherine and I have soft water, I don't know how that plays into it.

If you follow the Walstad method, you reley on the existing mineral content of any good soil, and its NPK content, as well as what is put back by fish and fish food. The importance of trace minerals is overstated, and I still believe worrying about adding minerals to soil is just overkill. Its fun to experiment with new things, but I don't think you will see any difference between a "mineralized" substrate and a normal soil substrate if all the other factors are the same.


----------



## fishyface

can anyone answer me this? instead of dolomite, can i use food grade calcium chloride that i've got left over from my reeftank? i suspect it would be more or less the same basic calcium supplement.

thanks, 
darryl


----------



## learn2turn

fishyface said:


> can anyone answer me this? instead of dolomite, can i use food grade calcium chloride that i've got left over from my reeftank? i suspect it would be more or less the same basic calcium supplement.
> 
> thanks,
> darryl


Are you sure you mean calcium chloride? Seem to remember from my reefer days that calcium chloride is very very soluble. When using it in a reef tank you have to test for Ca and then add just the right amount when needed or you will overdose. I wouldn't add that to soil. Calcium Oxide or Calcium Hidroxide, i.e. lime like for mixing kalkwasser, wouldn't be good either.

I would think you want a carbonate to buffer the acid of decaying soil. Calcium carbonate in any form would be okay-- crushed coral, crushed oyster shell etc.


----------



## fishyface

good point...crushed coral would be a good idea instead then allowing longer time for dissolution?


----------



## AaronT

fishyface said:


> good point...crushed coral would be a good idea instead then allowing longer time for dissolution?


Yes, I would use crushed coral instead of the calcium chloride. The reason for using the dolomite is that it dissolves even slower than the crushed coral does.

The only way I know of to speed up the process of mineralization when it starts getting cold outside is to bring it inside, perhaps in a garage if you have one.


----------



## gravy9

AaronT said:


> Yes, I would use crushed coral instead of the calcium chloride. The reason for using the dolomite is that it dissolves even slower than the crushed coral does.
> 
> The only way I know of to speed up the process of mineralization when it starts getting cold outside is to bring it inside, perhaps in a garage if you have one.


But, wouldn't this affect the Magnesium content if crushed coral or calcium chloride is used instead of Dolomite?

Thank you.

regards,
Ravi


----------



## AaronT

gravy9 said:


> But, wouldn't this affect the Magnesium content if crushed coral or calcium chloride is used instead of Dolomite?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> regards,
> Ravi


Yes, but really the idea behind it is to keep the substrate from becoming to acidic. Most water sources have enough calcium and magnesium in them already.


----------



## fishyface

question: i've just gone through the process of soaking and screening the soil i'm using and it looks great. the thing i've got some concern over is that i'd say probably 75-80% of what's left over is sand, will this cause me compaction issues?


----------



## AaronT

fishyface said:


> question: i've just gone through the process of soaking and screening the soil i'm using and it looks great. the thing i've got some concern over is that i'd say probably 75-80% of what's left over is sand, will this cause me compaction issues?


It should be sandy. That means you did everything correctly.  So long as you keep the soil layer between 1/2" and 1" deep you shouldn't have any issues.


----------



## zer0zax

I'm setting some up now to! I have all the ingredients and I soaked my soil for 2 days, soil is in the first drying step now, I spread it out so it is only a half-inch thick but it is taking forever to dry. It is outside under cover and raccoons put prints in it every night, but at least they aren't flinging it everywhere! They do turn it over pretty good though... It has been "drying" for 4 days now, and will take at least 3 more days to dry completely.


----------



## AaronT

zer0zax said:


> I'm setting some up now to! I have all the ingredients and I soaked my soil for 2 days, soil is in the first drying step now, I spread it out so it is only a half-inch thick but it is taking forever to dry. It is outside under cover and raccoons put prints in it every night, but at least they aren't flinging it everywhere! They do turn it over pretty good though... It has been "drying" for 4 days now, and will take at least 3 more days to dry completely.


Great.  Keep us posted on how it works out for you. The drying process is certainly prolonged once the cooler months of the year come around.


----------



## FBG

AaronT...I was wondering, do you have to use Potash? I have a one pound bag of pure Potassium -K2S04- (well, actually I'm not sure if it's pure, I am really only guessing at that. it is for EI). Could I use this instead of the potash?

By the way, I love your aquascape.


----------



## FBG

oh, I found natural dry clay at a local supplier today. for 60 lbs for a total of $15.00 (I only bought 10 lbs and turned out to be only $3.63). I think it's called Cedar heights red art clay. (no Iron oxide in it.) do you think this will work?


----------



## AaronT

FBG said:


> oh, I found natural dry clay at a local supplier today. for 60 lbs for a total of $15.00 (I only bought 10 lbs and turned out to be only $3.63). I think it's called Cedar heights red art clay. (no Iron oxide in it.) do you think this will work?


That sounds like the type of clay you want. You can skip the potash if you want to and use the K2SO4. The potash dissolves a little bit slower so it last a little longer.


----------



## FBG

Alright, Thanks. 

I only want to skip the Potash because I can't find it in a local garden or nursery center. I was told by three different centers that I'd need to contact the National horticultural supply to get a bag of it.


----------



## zer0zax

It took me a long time to find the potash also. None of the garden centers had it, but a lady at HD told me to look at feed stores and farm supply stores. That's where I found mine, and in my city that is about the only place you will find people in cowboy hats and boots also. Look for the hats, and those people won't look at you crazy when you ask for the potash! Silence your cellphone though, newer technology might scare them.


----------



## cs_gardener

I got my potash from Jeremy of Oregon Aqua Design (here). I set up a 20 long and I could set up quite a few more tanks with what I received. Saved me from having to search it out since I couldn't find it in any of the garden or hardware stores that I normally visit.


----------



## zer0zax

I bought mine 8 months ago and am just now starting the process, It would have been better if I bought it from Jeremy though. I wasted a lot of gas driving around trying to find the potash, plus I was charged more than what Jeremy's prices are.


----------



## mistergreen

if you have an espoma dealer by you, they might have potash
http://espoma.com/content.aspx?type=p&id=7&intCategoryID=1

there's another company that makes potash but I forgot... American something.. I used to use these products before I found out about dry ferts.

btw. what's the thinking behind using clay?
I asked about clay on this forum when I first started in NPT. I think the consensus was that it was not needed.


----------



## AaronT

Southern States feed stores will have the potash, but it's in a 40 lb. bag. That's enough for two or three people's lifetimes. 

Order it from Oregon Aqua. That's probably the best way.


----------



## FBG

Alright, Thanks for the advice! 

I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## fishyface

ok i actually found some dolomite lime it says but i want to confirm that it's the right stuff as it looks quite different. for starters it's like brown pebbles and the guaranteed minimum analysis is as follows:

Ca 22%
Mg 10%
Neutralizing value (calcium carbonate equivalent) 96%

should this be ok?

thanks,
darryl


----------



## AaronT

Darryl,

It should look like white crystals. I'm pretty sure the brown pepples stuff is different.


----------



## fishyface

Aarron, that's bad news then, do you think i should try it anyway or just put the crushed coral in instead?

cheers,
darryl


----------



## AaronT

I sent you a PM on PT. I can hook you up with some dolomite. Otherwise, I would use the crushed coral and a small sprinkle of Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate).


----------



## fishyface

so, tanks been planted and looks great. i'm running 4x54w T5HO for light and pressurized CO2. in the event that i need to fertilize i was thinking about using the PPS pro method. should i need to fertilize and if so should i just follow the method outlined or modify it?

advice or insight?
thanks,
darryl


----------



## fishyface

i wasn't trying to go "low tech". i wanted an alternative to very costly designer substrates, this sounded like a good method to try.


----------



## Edward

fishyface said:


> so, tanks been planted and looks great. i'm running 4x54w T5HO for light and pressurized CO2. in the event that i need to fertilize i was thinking about using the PPS pro method. should i need to fertilize and if so should i just follow the method outlined or modify it?
> 
> advice or insight?
> thanks,
> darryl


I am sorry but there are too many reasons why this idea will not work well, unless you are creating a photo display for few weeks time. You can try it but I don't recommend it because it is going to be difficult to break-in such a setup. It will look nice for a month or two and then algae will take over the tank and kill the plants. Substrates like this would be useful if we had no access to good water column fertilizers. Most aquatic plants uptake nutrients from the water column so there is no need to play with the substrate where nutrients and unnecessary elements are uncontrollable and unpredictable. You can use this for very low light, no CO2 injection, no further fertilization, limited plant variety and very slow growth. Not a bad plan if you are looking for it.
But if you want the opposite of the above you need to take it all out and start over again. It seems like you chose this direction to substitute for fancy substrates. I have good news, anything that holds plants down is a good substrate. Find any Pool Store and get pool filter sand, $8 per 50 lb. bag, the sales guy will even take it to your car for you.


----------



## fishyface

Edward, i've gone back and reread the start of this thread and i've basically done the same thing as Aaron did at the start of this thread. are you saying that his tank is a very rare instance and that the chances of anyone else reproducing this is nil? 

i guess i'm just gonna have to have to start slowly as a low tech and add light as the tank will allow...it'll be interesting anyhow. and yah, part of the reasoning behind this method was to try something different and to try to get away from designer substrates so if it doesn't work then it'll be back to the drawing board so to speak.


----------



## ingg

Edward said:


> I am sorry but there are too many reasons why this idea will not work well, unless you are creating a photo display for few weeks time. You can try it but I don't recommend it because it is going to be difficult to break-in such a setup. It will look nice for a month or two and then algae will take over the tank and kill the plants. Substrates like this would be useful if we had no access to good water column fertilizers. Most aquatic plants uptake nutrients from the water column so there is no need to play with the substrate where nutrients and unnecessary elements are uncontrollable and unpredictable. You can use this for very low light, no CO2 injection, no further fertilization, limited plant variety and very slow growth. Not a bad plan if you are looking for it.
> But if you want the opposite of the above you need to take it all out and start over again. It seems like you chose this direction to substitute for fancy substrates. I have good news, anything that holds plants down is a good substrate. Find any Pool Store and get pool filter sand, $8 per 50 lb. bag, the sales guy will even take it to your car for you.


Funny, someone forgot to tell my tanks that. All several months old, all running pretty clear of algae after the expected initial greenwater blooms, and all showing extremely healthy growth. Someone also forgot to tell my friend's tank that - I believe it has been up and running almost 12 years now, same substrate method, and running like a champ. 

For the record, the species of plants I've found that don't absolutely thrive in a mineralized soil tank I can count on one hand (I'm sure there are more, but I'm speaking of those I've intentionally tried) - the vast majority of plants take nutrients just fine from those white parts on the bottom, yknow, the roots. 

Don't just take my word for it though, here are my tanks:

180g, set up in January:



Pretty neat when you get crypts to flower, here is C. Usteriana, second one I've gotten to throw spathes (Willissii obviously cannot make it out to flower, but spathes do come up):



33g shrimp and cray tank, set up in February:



Ammania Bonsai, definitely dying off! 



75g, set up in spring:



Clearly, stems like Ludwigia 'Cuba' and broad leaf Stellata don't like it:



50g, set up, umm, 2 months ago?


----------



## Edward

fishyface said:


> so, tanks been planted and looks great. i'm running 4x54w T5HO for light and pressurized CO2. in the event that i need to fertilize i was thinking about using the PPS-Pro method. should i need to fertilize and if so should i just follow the method outlined or modify it?advice or insight?thanks, darryl





Edward said:


> I am sorry but there are too many reasons why this idea will not work well, unless you are creating a photo display for few weeks time. You can try it but I don't recommend it because it is going to be difficult to break-in such a setup. It will look nice for a month or two and then algae will take over the tank and kill the plants. Substrates like this would be useful if we had no access to good water column fertilizers. Most aquatic plants uptake nutrients from the water column so there is no need to play with the substrate where nutrients and unnecessary elements are uncontrollable and unpredictable. You can use this for very low light, no CO2 injection, no further fertilization, limited plant variety and very slow growth. Not a bad plan if you are looking for it.
> But if you want the opposite of the above you need to take it all out and start over again. It seems like you chose this direction to substitute for fancy substrates. I have good news, anything that holds plants down is a good substrate. Find any Pool Store and get pool filter sand, $8 per 50 lb. bag, the sales guy will even take it to your car for you.





ingg said:


> Funny, someone forgot to tell my tanks that. All several months old, all running pretty clear of algae after the expected initial greenwater blooms, and all showing extremely healthy growth. Someone also forgot to tell my friend's tank that - I believe it has been up and running almost 12 years now, same substrate method, and running like a champ. For the record, the species of plants I've found that don't absolutely thrive in a mineralized soil tank I can count on one hand (I'm sure there are more, but I'm speaking of those I've intentionally tried) - the vast majority of plants take nutrients just fine from those white parts on the bottom, yknow, the roots.


Ingg,
Based on your own experience, do you recommend AaronT's substrate and very high light 4x54W T5HO and high levels of CO2 injection and K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4, CaSO4, Manganese, Iron, Zinc, Copper, Boron, Molybdenum additions dosed every day, as a package for beginners? I don't recommend it for beginners and neither does AaronT, the experienced expert. 




Kelly said:


> Also, do you recommend this for beginners?





AaronT said:


> Definitely not. Not because they are any less capable of pulling it off. More so because they're likely to get frustrated and give up before they ever see good results. Also, I think it helps to start with dosing to give oneself a better understanding of what's going on.


 
I am glad your setup is working for you Ingg and thank you for your nice pictures.


----------



## fishyface

Edward said:


> I don't recommend it for beginners and neither does AaronT, the experienced expert.


i'm not really a beginner with planted tanks per se but i am a beginner with this substrate that's why i was asking.

i had read through the post several times and decided i wanted to try this but there are alot of new factors i'm not experienced with. hence my questions.

thanks all for your answers and yeah, ingg those tanks are spectacular...thanks for sharing those pictures!


----------



## ingg

You don't dose a mineralized tank other than traces of potassium once initial sources are exhausted.... pretty sure that has been covered in Aaron's journal of his tanks though.

Light levels - yep. The 180g is 4x39 x2 TEK fixtures, the 75g is 4x54 Catalina, the 50g is 4x39 Tek (noonbursted, not all on all day), the 33g cube is a 2x40w CurrentUSA.

Not super high light, but all pass as high light tanks.

Honestly... I'm a beginner. I got my first aquarium 5 years ago, got "serious" about planted tanks less than 3 years ago.

Aaron's reference is really to the initial blast. Green water is almost guaranteed with high light levels. You have a risk of some green fuzz that fades on its own if the soil is super rich. Arron plows through them, you gotta see the green soup he'll let cycle through!

If you can get past the initial green water - elementary with a UV.... and have some patience in growth, as you can get some odd behaviors in a few plants (I can force polygonums back to emersed for just by planting a clipping sans roots, for instance)... I recommend it to anyone that has a basic handle. It is really fantastic in its ease.

Put it this way - it works for me far, far better than any attempt I ever made at EI or PPS dosing. If you can do a basic dosed tank, you can do mineralized soil!


----------



## ingg

Interesting side note on the beginner referece, by the way.

I found I had to unlearn a lot, but not learn a lot.

I'm an avid reader, a bit of a sponge, and a fairly quick study. As I tried the dosing methods, I picked up.. for X algae, add this, for Y algae, add that, all imbalances.... and true. _In a dosed tank_.

In a mineralized tank, you address deficiencies shown by plants only. And even then in the tinyest amounts - I put .2 - yes, point two - ppm of potassium in my 180g once a week.

Curing algaes in mineralized soil depends on other methods - one, a packed tank, two, the occasional Excel and Hydrogen Peroxide , and three, time. They just don't seem to stick all that well, so a bit of elbow grease in removal and spot treatment of excel/h202 has always done the trick.


----------



## fishyface

good point as this is what i have to do now...i think someone else mentioned somewhere that i just have to learn to sit on my hands to see what happens. i was always so used to testing and tinkering but that's also what attracted me to mineralized soil...now i'll sit on my hands for a while observe and unlearn.



ingg said:


> I had to unlearn a lot, but not learn a lot.


----------



## fishyface

hey guys, any advice you can give me for lighting duration in the initial break in period? i've been up and running now for close to 2 weeks and starting to show GSA and BBA, i realize i will get algae. 

my fixture is 4x54w t5h0 (can't run 1/2 light) so should i run 4-6 hrs/day to start and what about co2? little bit, none, only during photo period?

thanks,
darryl


----------



## DarioDario

I was reading through and I gotta say Aaron your tank was amazing and Ingg your tanks are just as awesome


----------



## gasteriaphile

*El Natural With A Twist*

Aaron it is a shame that you couldn't keep the rocks in your first tank due to calcium leaching. What kind of rocks were they that they leached so much calcium? The rocks really made that aquascape run.


----------



## AaronT

*Re: El Natural With A Twist*



gasteriaphile said:


> Aaron it is a shame that you couldn't keep the rocks in your first tank due to calcium leaching. What kind of rocks were they that they leached so much calcium? The rocks really made that aquascape run.


I have no idea what sort of rocks they were. I got them at a local quarry and I knew at the time, but that was two years ago. I've found a much better stone source since then anyhow. 



Edward said:


> Ingg,
> Based on your own experience, do you recommend AaronT's substrate and very high light 4x54W T5HO and high levels of CO2 injection and K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4, CaSO4, Manganese, Iron, Zinc, Copper, Boron, Molybdenum additions dosed every day, as a package for beginners? I don't recommend it for beginners and neither does AaronT, the experienced expert.


I don't think either Ingg or myself would recommend dosing on top of the mineralized substrate. I completely agree that it's asking for trouble. The only necessary nutrient to dose down the road is a minuscule amount of potassium each week after the initial KCL runs out.

I do run my tanks all with high lighting and pressurized CO2 though. I do recommend this method to _some_ beginners, but only if I know them and I know their personality is such that they won't give up if they run into some issues. Of course, there are several issues one can run into with dosing as well.

Also, as in Ingg's experience I've found very few species of plants that won't take to the mineralized soil. If you're doing an all low-tech tank with Crypts and Swords it can't be beat.


----------



## gasteriaphile

> Originally Posted by Edward
> I am sorry but there are too many reasons why this idea will not work well, unless you are creating a photo display for few weeks time. You can try it but I don't recommend it because it is going to be difficult to break-in such a setup. It will look nice for a month or two and then algae will take over the tank and kill the plants. Substrates like this would be useful if we had no access to good water column fertilizers. Most aquatic plants uptake nutrients from the water column so there is no need to play with the substrate where nutrients and unnecessary elements are uncontrollable and unpredictable. You can use this for very low light, no CO2 injection, no further fertilization, limited plant variety and very slow growth. Not a bad plan if you are looking for it.
> But if you want the opposite of the above you need to take it all out and start over again. It seems like you chose this direction to substitute for fancy substrates. I have good news, anything that holds plants down is a good substrate. Find any Pool Store and get pool filter sand, $8 per 50 lb. bag, the sales guy will even take it to your car for you.


This post by Edward is very interesting! He brings up several aspects of this question of substrates which have occurred to me.

First of all, this is the first time I have read of aquaria set up for display for a few weeks time. Are such done? Is that what I often see when I look at the various ADA galleries? at Senske's tanks? et al.? I have wondered about that. I.E. great looking tanks but not permanent because not sustainable?

Second, why will FishyFace's tank be taken over uncontrollably by algae? Because of his bright lighting? just that? or other factors too?

Third, Walstad seems to present strong evidence in her book that many (most) aquatic plants do need fertile substrates at their roots.

Fourth, However! when you wrote, "the substrate where nutrients and unnecessary elements are uncontrollable and unpredictable" - that certainly rang a bell with me. This fight that the Walstadians seem to have, inevitably, with green alga clouds, suggests strongly something about the soil substrate method they use.

Fifth, what did you mean by "fancy substrates". Wasn't FishyFace using a soil under layer? Whereas you suggest plain old sand or fine gravel. I'd like to have an aquarium without algae and without CO2 injection, and the strength of light is negotiable based upon what is needed, and I'll use whatever substrate that indicates.

Thanks for helping out a beginner who feels like he has wandered into Alice's Wonderland! 

Breck in suddenly snowy Spokane


----------



## fishyface

_Update_
So my tank has been up and running now for just under a month. Signs of dust algae and slight green water had started to show so I'd reduced my light period to 6 hours per day. As of today I've now increased my light duration to 8 hours as the plants have seemed to take hold very nicely and are starting to flourish.

The whole time I've been running the lights full power as I have no option for partial lighting, that is 216w T5HO as well as pressurized CO2 only during the light cycle. Water column never went fully green just a slight greenish tinge so no real problems as this was to be expected from the tutorial.

At this point I can say I've not added any ferts to the water column as instructed and I'm very, very happy with the results. This seems to be a high tech system without the need of all the extra work that has come with other method's I've tried to this date...and I've tried a number of them .

I'd like to thank all those who blazed the trail and shared this method with us all to learn from. I believe I will never spend large amounts of money on "designer substrates" again. Nor will I hopefully have to bother with daily dosing. Again, I would highly recommend this method to anyone who likes to try something a little outside the norm of today's planted tank methodology.

Regards,
Darryl


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## Robert Hudson

> Third, Walstad seems to present strong evidence in her book that many (most) aquatic plants _do need _fertile substrates at their roots.


The problem with drawing conclusions from this thread is that this thread is a mixture of different approaches, and when you do that, things can get out of control quickly. I agree with Ed about that, however, when you follow one strict approach, such as the Walstad method then you can evaluate how that method works. In the Walstad approach a soil based tank works very well with very little algae LONG term, for years and years. Ms. Walstad has proven that, but there is much more to her method than simply using soil. You really need to study her book. When you go outside the Walstad method and incorporate other things like "mineralized soil" or C02, or whatever, you just have to find the right balance and then that can work too.

There is nothing new about Aarons mineralized soil in theroy. He is too young to know these people, but people like Dorothy Reimer and Steve Pushak have been working with soils and additives since the 1980s. Steve developed a whole system of using clay or sub soil, and a trace mineral mix. You can read about it here:

How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium plants (cheap)! by Steve Pushak 

Several people are following Aarons example and are apparently happy with the results. My friend Catherine has set up at least one tank following Aarons instruction and also uses Excel. Formerly she followed the Walstad method. I have seen her tanks with my own eyes, and they are all lush with heavy growth, and very little algae, and they have been going for a long time. If fact she supplys me and more recently other people in the Portland area with gorgeous plants! I won't speak for her, but my impression is that she feels she is now getting faster growth than previosly. There are many devote Walstad followers who would never do this or use any kind of CO2, and also have perfectly healthy looking plants. Its all a question of balance. EI and PPS are both programs based on water column fertilization. That works too, but to say thats the only way to have long term success is ridiculous



> As of today I've now increased my light duration to 8 hours as the plants have seemed to take hold very nicely and are starting to flourish.


They would grow faster with a proper light period of at least 10 hours.


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## AaronT

gasteriaphile said:


> First of all, this is the first time I have read of aquaria set up for display for a few weeks time. Are such done? Is that what I often see when I look at the various ADA galleries? at Senske's tanks? et al.? I have wondered about that. I.E. great looking tanks but not permanent because not sustainable?


The display tanks you see are more often created in 6 months to a year, not weeks. 



> Second, why will FishyFace's tank be taken over uncontrollably by algae? Because of his bright lighting? just that? or other factors too?


Edward was referring to his wanting to dose in addition to using a soil substrate. You kind of have to pick, one or the other.


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## Edward

Gasteriaphile
Sorry to confuse you, my first post here no.169 in this thread was an attempt to rescue somebody from making a mistake of mixing two incompatible systems. I was afraid leaving that unanswered because it would cause a lot of wasted time pulling tons of algae and replanting dead plants. Make things clear here, all the systems work well when the right procedures are applied at the right time. In order to keep this thread on topic you can post your other questions at http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback


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## ingg

> I do recommend this method to some beginners, but only if I know them and I know their personality is such that they won't give up if they run into some issues.


I do believe that was the nicest way anyone has ever called me a bull headed, stubborn as a mule, refusing to accept defeat person in my life.


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## fishyface

i hope someone can explain something to me regarding nutrients and mineralized soil as the answer isn't all that apparent to me at first glance.

my tank is now just over 1 month old and i've not been doing a whole lot of water testing but today however, i tested pH and nitrate and got basically 0 ppm on the nitrate test. 

coming from a PPS and EI background leads me to wonder how this can be. are the nutrients being absorbed by the plants at the same rate their being added from the natural breakdown of ammonia>nitrite>nitrates? i guess there's always the possibility that the test kit is wrong but it is brand new and nowhere near it's expiration date, anythings possible. i've not got a PO4 test kit at this time so i'm not sure what that is.

coming from a daily dosing background and being used to nitrates hovering around 20-30ppm has me wondering what's going on. i guess i just expected to read more as the result. what kind of results are others who use this method getting out of curiosity?


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## AaronT

fishyface said:


> i hope someone can explain something to me regarding nutrients and mineralized soil as the answer isn't all that apparent to me at first glance.
> 
> my tank is now just over 1 month old and i've not been doing a whole lot of water testing but today however, i tested pH and nitrate and got basically 0 ppm on the nitrate test.
> 
> coming from a PPS and EI background leads me to wonder how this can be. are the nutrients being absorbed by the plants at the same rate their being added from the natural breakdown of ammonia>nitrite>nitrates? i guess there's always the possibility that the test kit is wrong but it is brand new and nowhere near it's expiration date, anythings possible. i've not got a PO4 test kit at this time so i'm not sure what that is.
> 
> coming from a daily dosing background and being used to nitrates hovering around 20-30ppm has me wondering what's going on. i guess i just expected to read more as the result. what kind of results are others who use this method getting out of curiosity?


It's perfectly normal to have very low nitrate levels in a tank with mineralized soil as the main nutrient source. The nitrogen is staying in the substrate and not in the water column. The plants are obtaining their nutrients mostly through their roots now. Any nitrate leached into the water column or produced by the fish will be used up quickly by the plants.


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## ingg

> I'd like to thank all those who blazed the trail and shared this method with us all to learn from. I believe I will never spend large amounts of money on "designer substrates" again. Nor will I hopefully have to bother with daily dosing. Again, I would highly recommend this method to anyone who likes to try something a little outside the norm of today's planted tank methodology.
> 
> Regards,
> Darryl


Those were exactly my thoughts when I first tried this, too.

Can't thanks folks like Sean and Aaron enough. I was really nervous about it, and had some folks with some very pretty water column dosed tanks who were suggesting I not do it in my big tank (my first mineralized soil tank was my 180g). Am so very happy with it, and still regularly thank the folks who helped me along in trying it!


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## longhornxtreme

I think I'm definitely going to have to try this at some point.

I've got an interesting--to me at the very least--idea about solving the initial green water outbreaks.

I wonder if the green water outbreak can be totally avoided by mineralizing the soil according to AT's method, prepping the soil in the tank, filling the tank, blacking out the tank as if you were treating algae, hooking up the filtration equipment,_and then just let the tank cycle without a light source?_

Water changes every other day or so, maybe every third day, just to let everything stabilize? Maybe give the bacteria a good 2 week headstart before introducing plants and fish? I'm suspecting that even with the repeated mineralizing steps, there's still plenty of decaying organics in the first few week of the soil being in the tank. So... no light, = no algae; and time = no more left-overs from the decaying organics.​
Additionally, has anyone tried a tank that

1) varied the clay amount - specifically, used a higher amount of clay to reduce the amount of nutrients released by the soil? I understand not being able to dose the water column the same amount as with PPS or EI, but not being able to really dose any ferts at all concerns considering that most aquatic plants absorb nutrients from both the substrate and water column. I don't quite understand how dosing .1-.2ppm of NPK should cause an immediate bloom. ​ This makes me very scared of any little disturbance in the tank after uprooting some plants. It's not hard at all to throw your macro's off .1-.2ppm after a little uprooting around in the tank.​and / or

2) tried using a very thin layer of the mineralized soil to prep the tank, say only a 1/8'' to 1/4'' instead of the AT recommended 1/2 to 1"? Think of this like the ultimate root fertilizer; but not necessarily the only source of nutrients for the tank. I realize that this attempt would still result in the NH4+ bloom, but I think this might be getting even closer to the ADA AS type substrate. ​Thanks for taking the time to read my thought experiments,

Take care!


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## fishyface

well, i'm just about 2.5 months into this adventure and starting to think i'm loosing the battle. i've started growing BBA on my driftwood and leaves of slower growing plants. i've been trimming leaves left, right and center to try and keep it outta the tank but alas, no luck. pulled out the driftwood and done a peroxide scrub on it. also getting a touch of BGA just along the sides of the glass just below and above the substrate line.

some plants are growing well enough but something just seems as though it's lacking in health and vitality overall. 

tank size is 75g, at the moment i'm running 1x54w T5HO and co2 both misted and through an inline reactor. initially i was running the lighting at 3x54w but taken it down to 1 bulb to try and get this under control. lighting duration is 9 hour/day. not sure what to think about this, am i being impatient at all? 

i would appreciate any input, or at least some insight...:mmph:. perhaps a similar harrowing story but then in the end it worked out for you story...any support appreciated at this point!

cheers,
darryl


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## dj2606

Have you tried using a Uv sterilizer?


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## fishyface

haven't tried uv as my issue isn't really a green water issue. i have been doing fairly regular water changes, 30-50% every 2-3 days.


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## hooha

Sorry to hear you're having some issues. I would recommend getting a drop checker and using that to see if your CO2 levels are adequate. For the current algae, you can try the Seachem Excel OD method for a couple of weeks in the meantime.

Good luck!


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## fishyface

hey hooha, thanks! i do have a drop checker and it's green to yellow by the end of the day. i've also cranked it up a touch till fish were gasping then back down a bit to make sure i was getting good levels. i also have it turn on a full 2 hours before lights go on.

i guess what i'm mostly wondering here is that from what i gather, the break in period with soil typically a month? so now i've doubled that and a bit, i know everyone's situation is a bit different but i'm wondering what can be wrong here, just wondering if this should still be happening...

i'll look into the excel i guess but i was under the impression it was just liquid carbon. how does it differ much from dissolved CO2? 

thanks,


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## longhornxtreme

Excel is a glutaraldehyde based supplement. The plants seem to be able to use the carbon in excel; however, gultaraldehyde is also the main ingredient in most dental and hospital disinfectants. Although Seachem swears up and down that it's not an algicide... it sure seems to work like one.


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## hooha

Technically they can't market it as an algaecide, or else they'd run into FDA regulations, etc. There is a thread on the site that describes the Excel OD method.

Fishyface, with your soil substrate, which brand of soil did you start with? Did you use the other ingredients as well? Did you do any water column dosing?


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## fishyface

hooha, the soil i started with was plain old dirt from a local nursery. i took a shovel and filled a bag, soaked, dried...repeat 3 times then sifted till nice and fine, powdery even. mixed in 10% powdered all natural clay, then on the bottom of the tank before the soil/clay mixture a bit of potash and bit of crushed coral. just like Aaron tutorial...

as for water column dosing, no. i started that poll to see if others do because as i mentioned earlier, it just seems as though somethings missing. 

my last planted tank i used the PPS method with eco complete or fluorite and everything was very lush and healthy...seemed like everything the plants needed they were getting if you know what i mean. 

do you think i should continue with water changes? frequency and volume or should i chill on that a bit and just let the tank be? also, what do you think about my lighting situation...i just keep taking bulbs out, now i've only got 1. 

as many other great plant grower have mentioned in the past, with algae problems, one must focus on growing the plants, not worrying about fending off the algae...kinda goes hand in hand doesn't it? i feel like since i've dropped my lighting intensity, maybe i'm compromising the plants ability to grow and become robust. like in my other tanks using PPS...

*big sigh*


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## hooha

hmm, how much soil did you put in (1 inch, 1/2 inch, etc). How deep is your 'cap' substrate? Have the plants made a nice root structure down to the soil? One consideration is putting root tabs under the plant masses to promote more root growth down to your soil.....

As for lighting, until you get things under wraps I would stick with the 1 tube for now....unless you have high light-requiring plants.....


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## fishyface

soil i would say was 1"-1.25" and cap is about 2-3". i will stick with one tube then for the moment. i believe some plants have set up nice root structures but perhaps i need to be more patient. 

do you think i'm being a little overzealous regarding water changes?

thanks again for your help hooha, it's appreciated. 
darryl


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## hooha

How often are your water changes and how much at a time? I would think that it should be helpful, if anything myself....unless it uncovers the soil and sends it into your water column......


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## fishyface

been doing them every 2-3 days, 30-50%, no substrate disturbances so i guess i'll continue, thanks hooha.


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## rmsalaysay

i have found out that mostly hobbyist starting to build a tank with co2, high light, etc. fert is that they always having trouble of algae bloom, mind first time setup of natural planted tank has no issue at all, all plant is thriving, no filter, very low light, no water change just add only if the water starting to evaporate.

bottom layer - garden soil (the super cheap 2$ per 10 kilo)
top layer - black river sand


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## Crooks

@fishyface

I am way out of my league here as I never used CO2 before, but try dosing? I wouldn't know what, but I think I read on here that people dose potassium and maybe micros? Cutting leaves and scrubbing wood will remove algae but it will not remove the problem -in my experience. You can do that alongside, like, adjusting measures to help speed up recovery. Or actually try and feed more?

Actually I have a question for you hybrid people: Why the water changes? You don't dose estimative index or something so there is no likely chance of nutrient build-up -or is there? I mean you can do them since CO2 levels are stable anyways, but why bother? ;D


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## DutchMuch

hey Op,
I have a question:
I setup a dirted fluval ( not the same way) about 2 months ago...? and I'm having the same algae issues your currently having. I don't have fish or shrimp. 
How did your tank overcome it?


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