# My native plant emersed tank



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey all,

I went swamping this past weekend and found Shangri-La. It's a large swamp covered in the densest mats of plants I've seen in this part of the state. Needless to say I did a little collecting. I've never done a native plant biotope and thought that these were pretty enough to merit one.

All the plants were collected from the banks of the swamp or in the water proper and can be found in pretty much the same proximity as seen in the tank. The substrate is gravel collected from the stream draining into the swamp with peat mixed in the lower layer. Lighting is 2x 65w PC for as long as I'm awake.

Once I've been able to flower and ID these guys it's going to be filled with water and fishies.

The only plant I'm 100% sure about is the _Myriophyllum brasiliense_. I'm pretty sure the big red half wilted plant is an _Alternanthera_ species, there's a _Ludwigia_ species (not repens) and a couple others I'm not at all sure what they are. That big one is very likely an Echinodorus cordifolius, but I can't be sure until it flowers. It's not too happy right now and is losing it's original foliage.

The big problem is the book I have to ID all this stuff was written 40 years ago and wetland plants have a tendancy to migrate on boats and muddy tires. Some of these may be listed in other counties than Meck. but could easily have migrated here since the key was made.

Junky dark picture of the whole tank:









Top-down of right side









Top-down of left side









Front-on of left side









Front-on of right side









Regards,
Phil


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Exceptional, Phil!


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Thank you! Next time you come visit me I'll take you out to this site and a few others. Just remember to bring some swimming wings, I sank down to my shoulders a couple times, we don't want you drowning.


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Alright Phil!!!!! I may be short, but I float! I am not going to wear little kiddie wings!


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## Sir_BlackhOle (Jan 25, 2004)

I love it! I think its awesome that you can go out and actually get enough local plants to fill a tank! I wish I could find a place like that down here. Got another Frio trip coming up this month and I plan on taking a whole lot more back with me than last year. Keep us updated on this one Phil!


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## jppurchase (Dec 15, 2004)

*Identifying native plants*



Phil Edwards said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I went swamping this past weekend and found Shangri-La. It's a large swamp covered in the densest mats of plants I've seen in this part of the state. Needless to say I did a little collecting. I've never done a native plant biotope and thought that these were pretty enough to merit one.
> 
> ...


The best listing of aquatic plant ID books I have found is online at the Center for Aquatic and Invasive Plants (http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/).

If you are anywhere in the south-eastern US, the definative "bible" is the 2 volume set written by Godfrey & Wooten - Aquatic and Wetland Plants of the Southeastern United States (Volume 1 - Monocots: ISBN 0-8203-0420-4; Volume 2 - Dicotyledons: ISBN 0-8203-0532-4). Both published by the University of Georgia Press in 1979 and 1981, respecively. Don't be overly concerned about the publication date - they were written over 20 years ago but they are STILL excellent references.

If you are in the north-eastern US, the "bible" is by E. Crow and C. Barrie Hellquist - "Aquatic and Wetland Plants of Northeastern North America". Billed as a revised and updated version of Norman C. Fasset's "A Manual of Aquatic Plants", this is also a 2 volume set. Volume 1 covers Pteridophytes, Gymnosperms, and Dicot Angiosperms (ISBN 0-299-16330-X), while Volume 2 covers the Monocots (ISBN 0-299-16280-X). Published by the University of Wisconsin Press in 2000. As you can probably guess, there are more aquatic monocots than aquatic dicots.

I have both sets, and there is a considerable amount of "overlap" in their coverage. There isn't a definative "line" between what is found in the south and what is in the north.

These books are EXPENSIVE, but for anyone really into native aquatic plants, they are well worth looking at. You might want to check local university libraries to see if they have either (or both) sets. I bought mine thru Amazon.ca.

The southwestern US is covered in another book - but since I live in southern Ontario, there isn't much need for me to know what grows there.

If, while you are "swamp walking", you happen upon any Invertebrates that you might like to try in your mini-ecosystems, the "bible" is "Ecology and Classification of North American Freshwater Invertebrates (Second Edition) Edited by James H. Thorp and Alan P. Covich. Academic Press, 2001) ISBN 0-12-690647-5.

Note that these are ALL scientific references - no mention is made as to the suitability of any of the plants or inverts for use in an aquarium. But that's where the "fun" lies.

Explore, experiment, enjoy Nature, and be sure to wear good rubber boots!

James Purchase
Toronto


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks for the kind words y'all! I'm hoping I'll do better this year in the AGA with this since it's a local biotope and they always seem to do better than non-locals. I guess it has something to do with the perceived effort put into it. I have to say that this was the easiest biotope I've ever done, almost no research involved at all! 

James,
I'm in North Carolina and will be checking out those wetland books you suggested. Right now I'm using the definitive book for NC "Manual of the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas". It was written by three professors at UNC Chapel Hill (the Carolina of Michael Jordan fame) and has just about every plant possible in the state at the time it was last revised. It's an academic/scientific resource as well but I'm training to be an ecologist so it's very useful for me.


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

That's _Murdannia sp._ in the lower left corner. Do its veins run parallel to one another? If so, then I'm 99% positive that it is _Murdannia keisak_, an awesome plant that takes on the slightest purple hue submersed! It's an old weed but is a very recent introduction to the hobby. :mrgreen: IMHO, it is _far more_ attractive than _M. sp._ 'Green' and _M. sp._ 'Red'. I've sent this to two or three other people so perhaps they'll chime in with their experiences as well.

I originally told them that the plants I sent were _Murdannia spirata_, but after having found the real _M. spirata_ (short broad leaves), I realized that I made a mistake in identification. The _M. spirata_ is very rare in my area. I managed to find only one population of it but it is very small; so I took only one plant home. _M. keisak_, on the other hand, is absolutely abundant, found in the deepest shade as well as out in full sun. :shock:










I have not been able to grow the red plant in the back submersed. I've tried 3 times unsuccessfully. Maybe you'll have better luck.

The _Ludwigia sp._ definitely has leaves that resemble those of the palustris species; but I don't know enough about all the cultivars and cross hybrids associated with this species and its relatives to make a definitive ID or even hazard a guess. :-(

---

BTW, did you take any photos of the swamp in which you found these plants? I would love to take a gander. :mrgreen:



> I sank down to my shoulders a couple times, we don't want you drowning.


EEK!!! Did you really? My boots can only take 24" of water before my feet will get wet. I hope to one day own a rubber suit that fly fishermen and fisheries scientists use when they go wading through pools. You know the one that goes all the way up to your chest? [smilie=l:


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## fishmaster#1 (Apr 10, 2005)

Nice collection. Price was great too. I hope to be able to do a swamp tank using natives like you did. Won't know till I find some plants growing it is still cold here. I have been toying around with growing emerse plants. I find a layer of sand on top of dirt keeps water cleaner. When you fill tank with water the sand will keep dirt from fogging the water. Have you tryed that? Is that dirt from the swamp? Are you misting the plants? Was it hard to get the plants roots, or did you take cuttings. It might help me and others if these points were addressed. I like layout BTW.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Fishmaster,

Some of the plants were growing directly out of the water or were growing horizontally so I too cuttings of them. Others were growing "normally" and I was able to uproot them and transplant directly into the tank. I tried to keep some of the muck on the roots if at all possible to seed the substrate bed with ectomycorhyzzal fungi that might be associated with the plants. 

The substrate is 90% creek sand from the creek that feeds the swamp (I used sand vs. mud for tank hygiene) with some peat mixed in the bottom layers to provide organics. I shoveled the substrate directly out of the creek into a bucket and dumped that right into the tank. There are all sorts of small sediments and organisms in there, it's not just clean sand and gravel. When it comes time to move the tank and fill it with water I'm going to mix topsoil with some of the local red clay and put it at the bottom of the substrate as a nutrient amendment and to make it more accurate.

No, I don't mist. All of these plants came from just a few miles away from my house, so the humidity levels and temperature are generally the same. Being in a half inch of water and a porous substrate they get all the water they need. 

cS,

Thanks for the ID, it looks like it might just be that. I'll have to wait a little while to be sure, but overall it's looking probable. As far as the Ludwigia, there are 30 species native to North Carolina, so I'm going to have to wait for flowers for a positive ID. The book does say that palustris is native to Meck. Co, so it's also likely. Keep it up and you'll put me out of a job.  

Unfortunately I didn't get any pictures of the swamp or surroundings. I was afraid to bring my camera for fear that it would get dropped in the water and die or get lost. Now that I have a better idea of how to get around in there I'll be bringing it on the fish collecting trip, pictures will be forthcoming.

No waders as of yet. Old sneakers and cutoff jeans work well for me, and I've got the bug bites to show for it.  You live somewhat close to NC if you've been to Biltmore. Another couple hours east and you're in Charlotte. You'll have to come visit, we can have one big plant collecting/watching trip.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Looks great Phil!

Can you get any closer shots of the _Polygonum_ ? I'd like to compare it to what I have (possibly _P. hydropiperoides_ ).

Does the _Ludwigia_ look like this? I can't see it all that well, but it's just a hunch.

http://www.timetotrack.com/jay/ludwig3.htm

CS,

Do you think the plant you're already growing might be _M. nudiflora_ ?


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Cavan,

I was looking at the plants last night and there are no Polygonum in there. I mis-labeled it. Any ideas what the Hygrophila-looking plant in the back corners is? I'm having trouble coming up with a genus. 

That Ludwigia looks very similar to one of the types I have in there. It's labeled as rare in NC, but it was growing like gangbusters all over the place. The smaller Ludwigia in front is very similar in color, habit, and texture to L. repens so I'm waiting for flowers for final ID. 

Regards,
Phil


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## fishmaster#1 (Apr 10, 2005)

I went out looking for plants yesterday. I found alot of very cool plants. The one I like the most is a orange crypt type plant. In IL a orange crypt can you amagine my surprise? Anyway I offer anyone who reads this one free. I found a huge mass growing by the bank of a stream. There are more plants then I could ever collect. Thanks for posting this thread it made me think. I will take some pics over the weekend. Hey Phil since you posted this thread I would like to send you some IL native plants FREE. pm me if interested. There are about 300 kinds of plants growing around the corner from me in a marsh,bog, swamp whatever you want to call it. You should see some of the mosses around here just awsome. Java, Taiwan, and H.C. don't have anything on the mosses here. There is even one that looks like green ice crystals. I also found a wierd hairgrass. It is much smaller and fuller then most other hairgrasses I have seen.There are also giant sword type plants here about 2 foot around. I also found some arrowhead plants,and aquatic ferns. I have more cool plants then I thought native to my town. Thanks for the idea Phil


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Phil, 

I don't know what the larger plant in the back is. 

The smaller Ludwigia in front may indeed be palustris. It's an easy one to ID, as the frequently formed flowers have no petals. You'll have to examine the stems (at the nodes) pretty closely to find them though.


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## clay (Jul 3, 2004)

i, like phil, did some gathering this weekend. i picked up some of the same plants he got (namely b/c i am in the same area for a visit) and was a little confused about Murdannia keisak. first, when looking in the pond where i gathered it, it looked like grass growing. so, i made sure to ask if the pond has recently risen withing the last couple days, which the response was no. so i pulled it up (almost falling in) and began a search to figure out what it is. went to the local lowes in NC, and they had something similar in the pond section named dulichium arundinaceum or dwarf bamboo. after a search, i realized it was far from it. long story short, thanks for telling us what it was. 

has anyone seen a deep red/burgundy colored plant that grows in NC that where the leaves resemble Ludwigia palustris? i have a few strands of it that i will try and take a pick of when i get back to tx on saturday. 

phil, did you find any of the Lysimachia nummularia 'Aurea'? i found some at a local lake, at lowes, and then growing near my parents pond. seems to be very prevalent around the kings mountain area.

and where did you find the sword again?

clay


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Call me and I'll be happy to take you there.


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## clay (Jul 3, 2004)

ok, the burgundy stuff may be the ludwigia submersed. once some of the shoots were emersed, the leaves have turned a greenish hew. but i did find some more stuff at a lake, and will take some pics of it once back in tx. 

clay


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## clay (Jul 3, 2004)

and i also found some "grass" type of plant. not real thick, but kinda like sag, but the blades are not as thick. they are very slender and the length is small, but that could just be b/c it is near the waters edge. who knows. i am new to this stuff.

now, as far as the substrate, what are you guys using? should i use what is in the lake/creek, or should i use gravel and some potting soil?

clay


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Clay,

There are Eriocaulon and Saggitaria species native to the Piedmont, it could be either of the two. Substrate depends on you. I like the creek/lake gravel myself. If it's not too fine and mucky go ahead and use it. 

I would highly recommend getting a sample of the dirt/muck that the roots are in and put it at the bottom of the substrate as well as keeping as much stuff on the roots as possible. There are a number of microorganisms that the plants are associated with that would prove to be beneficial. Even if you end up trimming the roots off and planting the cuttings, put the root portion in the substrate to seed the bed. It's especially important if you go with the soil and gravel route.

When are you leaving? 

Best,
Phil


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## clay (Jul 3, 2004)

well, i am back in the big d, and have them outside. is this good or bad? i work from home, and make sure they are in water at all times, but i know the sun can be a bit much. are they ok as long as they are in water?

clay


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

They should be ok, most NA wetland/aquatic plants prefer full sun, and by that I mean BRIGHT sun. How much water are they in? Most of these plants have a so-so plumbing system and have a hard time getting water to leaves and stems that are far out of water. Your best bet is to fill the container with just enough water to cover all but the top inch or so. They should do fine after that.


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## clay (Jul 3, 2004)

that is an issue that i had with one of the pots. but the rest seem to be thriving. what about crypts? i have one potted crypt in a tray of water that is outside. should that be brought in?

clay


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

It should do well in a little shade. Put it partially under a bush, or in the shadiest corner of your porch/deck.


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