# Sticky  What is "el Natural?" A Step by Step?



## John N.

This is a new realm of knowledge for me. I think I get the basic premise but would like a more complete idea of what "el Natural" is exactly, and what types of 

Substrate;
Light;
Waterchanges;
Filter;
Ferts;
Methods;and
anything else

one uses or may not use when creating an all natural planted aquarium setup. So far from my limited reading time, it all looks very interesting. Anyone with a concise definition and description? 

-John N.


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## javalee

John N.,

Diana Walstad is the originator of this idea and wrote the book, "The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" so she's the expert, but I'll give you a concise preview:

1-1.5" of unfertilized (generic works best) potting soil
1-1.5" of gravel on top

Use at least 1.5Watts/gal of lighting PLUS some natural sunlight from a window.

Allow some plants to grow emergent or have floating plants like duckweed, salvinia, water lettuce. This keeps algae in check by giving some plants exposure to air (and thus CO2).

No fertilizers, CO2 or other additives are needed. The soil provides a myriad of beneficial bacteria, nutrients, minerals that keep the substrate from producing toxic gas like H2S etc. The plants get all nutrition from the soil and generous feeding of the fish. CO2 is provided by decomposition in the soil.

Others can probably give a better explanation, but this is a start for you. I can attest to the success of this method. I have the tank I've always wanted (lush jungle!) with no expensive products or heavy maintenance, and best of all---no algae problems. I'll attach a photo of it taken in its jungle incarnation.

EDIT: I see I left out two issues you asked about. Water changes are rarely needed. Every few months maybe. I've read of some doing only 2 a year! Filters are not neccessary since the plants filter the ammonia and nitrite out of the water, but you can use them for water movement and mechanical filtration---if you want. I think Diana suggests powerheads only for larger tanks. I have no filter in my little one gallon, and I use the Hagen mini submersable in my 10g for water circulation.


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## PlantsAndMe

Javalee, can you give us some examples of generic potting soil? There's so many out there but which one works in a planted tank and what brand are suitable. Thanks


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## DataGuru

Here's a summary of the basics I put together on it. I've read her book three times now and every time I see something new. It's definitely worth a read or two or three. :lol: She reviews quite a bit of literature on the processes happening in a natural planted tank. Also see the Hex thread here for a photo documentary of setting up a Walstad-type natural planted tank.


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## dwalstad

Betty,

I can't thank you enough for putting together your comprehensive website about my methods, link to article about aquatic plant preference for ammonia nitrogen, tank photos etc. Well done!

Diana


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## Jane in Upton

By "Generic Potting Soil", I think "Simple Potting Soil" could be used as well. Some commerical potting soils will change during their production year, as different products become seasonably available. 

A Simple potting soil would have a moderate amount of composted organic matter (humus, leaf mould, etc) with some not-yet broken down material (peat, some tiny bark pieces, etc) and some inorganic material (sand, clay, tiny stones).

Its easier to mention what is NOT recommended. Because these ingredients add cost for the manufacturer, generally they're found in "name brand" potting soils. 

Fertilizer - Miracle-Gro brand includes a slow-release fertilizer in their potting soil, intended to feed container plants, window boxes and such for the summer (about 3 months). This amount of nutrients will wreak havoc on your tank parameters, and probably result in an algae mess.

Perlite - while not a bad thing for houseplant soil, this stuff "lightens" heavy soils, especially those that tend to be high in clay. It provides porosity and helps to allow container plants' roots access to air from the small spaces between particles (very important for terrestrials). For the aquarium keeper, this stuff floats, and is a royal pain in the @$$, as the little white bits will float up for months and cling to anything in the water surface.

Vermiculite - also generally a good ingredient in houseplant soil, this is a mineral that has been expanded by exposing it to great heat. While it also "lightens" soils to some extent, it also provides a lot of surface area for water to cling to, and helps absorb and retain water, while not staying thoroughly WET. It evens out the wet/dry cycle. For the aquarium keeper, this isn't as annoying a floating component as perlite, and may help against compaction. (*aside - I've actually added some vermiculite to a soil underlayer as an experiment, with very good results to date).

Wetting Agents. These are surfactants. I've personally had a very bad experience with these when trying to pot up some very rare terrestrial plant cuttings. My bad experience was with Martha Stewart's potting soil from KMart. Shredded sphagnum peat has an annoying habit of being difficult to wet once it gets very dry. It actually repels water to some extent. A wetting agent, or surfactant, gets the water to make contact with the other materials, and increases absorbability. But, it also increases the moisture retaining time. For me, this kept the precious cuttings too wet for too long, and caused rot. I'm not positive what the effect would be in an aquarium, but my sense is that it would not be good for the creature or plants. Plants have a very thin natural cuticle to protect them, and I'd guess this would not "play nicely" with that. Who knows what the long term effects on fish would be.


~~~~~~~~~


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## Jane in Upton

*sorry had to break this up into two parts - it was doing something odd where it repeats the same line over and over*

anyhow.....

Take a look at some of the cheaper soils. Those tend to NOT have wetting agents, fertilizers or other questionable amendments. I've used "Hyponex" and "Jolly Gardener" but found the contents of both brands to vary widely depending on where the bag was purchased, and at what time of year. Try a small bag of a few different types. Anything you don't use in the aquarium would probably be fine for houseplants.

Here is a VERY general assessment technique: Moisten it, play with it. When moderately moist (like a wrung out sponge), a small handful should have a bit of give when you squeeze it in your fist. Now open your hand flat. Does it crumble apart? That indicates its high in sand. Does it stay compressed, like a hard lump? High in clay. Does it look shiny or slick, or very muddy? That indicates a lot of organics. 

Ideally, it will fluff back out a little bit (like when baking a cake - touch the top to see if its done - it should sping back when lightly touched) as you've released the compression. It should generally keep its shape, perhaps fracturing in one or two places. If you push on it, it should then break apart rather easily. 

Now smell it. It should not smell moldy or astringent or bitter. It should smell pleasantly earthy, and the smell should not be noticable unless you have your nose right up to it. 

Now you can start a bottle test (be sure to have a control of just water) to see if there are any wild pH swings! *Grin*
-Jane


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## Jane in Upton

What a great webpage, Betty! Yes, nicely done!

-Jane


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## plantbrain

Jane, 

Why might you think that miracle grow would cause algae, yet adding KNO3/KH2PO4/Traces to very high levels would not in a non carbon enriched tank? 

What might that suggest about NH4 and NO3? Is it really excess nutrients?

How many types of NO3 transportors are there and how many NH4 transportors are there in plants?

Do a google search.

There are many types of NO3 uptake transporters and they each respond to different levels of substrate nutrient concentrations.
A plant can adapt well to many variables, they adapt and this also fits the observation/s.

NH4 can be added to verify this.

Soil that has been soaked well prior, boiled etc, is well oxidized. This removes most of the liable NH4. Slow decomposition of organic N into NH4 slowly releases NH4 at non algae spore germiniating levels.
Embedding NH4 into clay at low levels also does a similar thing but without bacteria, rather, the root hairs penetrate the clay.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ChrisC

Wow, Tom Barr and Diana Walstad on one forum. I'm honoured! 

Thanks,
Chris


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## DataGuru

So Diana, are your article and tank pics moving here?

We oughta put together a sticky for this forum with an intro and links to resources.

With my other little 2.5 gallon here at home, I used that topsoil that had the ammonia/bubbling issues and planted e-tennelus and crypts and didn't add a lot of floaters to suck up the excess nutrients. That's the only NPT that I've had pea soup algae in. I used daphnia for a while which was kinda nice actually, cuz it was a nice ecosystem for the betta with built in food and they finally cleared it, but with the lack of daphnia food, the betta ate enough daphnia, the green water returned. I added more daphnia and najas grass and the algae has not returned. So perhaps even with an overly nutritious substrate, fast growing floaters can keep algae blooms from happening.


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## Jane in Upton

My suggestion to avoid potting soils with an added fertilizer (especially for one's first foray into using soil underlayers) was based on the El Natural methodology - the ideal soil will have nutrients, but in moderation. Just as the addition of composted manure is also not advised, the additional fertilizer in supplemented potting soils is considered excessive for an El Natural setup. In this type of setup, fertilizers are not added straight to the water column, either - the addition of fishfood, and its degradation by bacteria provide the main source of macronutrients for the plants. 

There were a few cases where folks used a fertilizer-enriched potting soil in an El Natural setup, and they had great difficulty with their tanks, many times greater than the "usual" problems encountered as an El Natural soil underlayer is "settling in".

If the parameters are changed, such as the addition of CO2 supplementation or water column fertilization is added, then Miracle Gro potting soil with fertilizers might be just the right thing. But that's a very different setup.

-Jane


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## Jimbo205

While reading the above posts, I am able to understand what Jane, Betty and Diana said. 
Can someone translate what PlantBrain said? 
I did not understand his post. 

Thanks.


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## banderbe

Jimbo205 said:


> While reading the above posts, I am able to understand what Jane, Betty and Diana said.
> Can someone translate what PlantBrain said?
> I did not understand his post.
> 
> Thanks.


He said that excess nutrients (NPK and traces) don't cause algae but excess ammonia (NH4) does, and he's right.


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## dwalstad

banderbe said:


> He said that excess nutrients (NPK and traces) don't cause algae but excess ammonia (NH4) does, and he's right.


There are plenty of river and oceanic algal blooms due to nitrate and phosphate pollution that would contradict a blanket statement like this.

Although algae (like aquatic plants) prefer ammonia to nitrogen, algae can grow very well with nitrates alone.

Some of the cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) can actually use atmospheric nitrogen for _all_ their nitrogen needs.

In aquariums due to the fishfood input, there's generally an excess of all nutrients. Iron being much less soluble than other nutrients can, in this situtation, limit algal (see my book, pages 169-170).

What stimulates algae depends upon the situation.


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## banderbe

dwalstad said:


> There are plenty of river and oceanic algal blooms due to nitrate and phosphate pollution that would contradict a blanket statement like this.
> 
> Although algae (like aquatic plants) prefer ammonia to nitrogen, algae can grow very well with nitrates alone.
> 
> Some of the cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) can actually use atmospheric nitrogen for _all_ their nitrogen needs.
> 
> In aquariums due to the fishfood input, there's generally an excess of all nutrients. Iron being much less soluble than other nutrients can, in this situtation, limit algal (see my book, pages 169-170).
> 
> What stimulates algae depends upon the situation.


I guess the statement should be qualified:

He said that (assuming your tank is full of healthy plants) excess nutrients (NPK and traces) don't cause algae but excess ammonia (NH4) does, and he's right.

That certainly fits with my experience. I can have 30+ ppm NO3 and 4 to 5 ppm PO4 and if my plants are happy I have virtually no algae.

I think you're right though that it depends on the situation; in a tank without plants algae can gain a foothold easily.


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## Jimbo205

Diana, when I have trimmed my plants or rather taken them out of the tank to decide what to do with them I have been taking the old parts with algae on them or whichever plants I do not want to keep anymore and crush them and bury them under the substrate. I remember your book talking about available carbon through decomposition and the amount of carbon absorbed by the plant and therefore available to other plants while breaking down. 

I am taking baby steps in trying to learn the mind boggling amount of methods to grow aquarium plants. Sometimes I think I must be nuts trying to make this hobby work. Square Foot Gardening for tomatoes and vegetables is cake compared to this stuff somedays. 

Please tell me that someday this will all be easy. (Without also achieving a college degree in biology and / or chemistry). I just want a beautiful aquarium. (smile)


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## dwalstad

Believe me, I wouldn't have kept 3-9 tanks for last 19 years if it was that time-consuming!

I tried to write my book on a High School level of biology and chemistry. It's not stuff you can skim, but it shouldn't be too hard to understand.

I've never tried burying fresh plant matter in substrate. It could help (provide CO2). But it could also cause wild decomposition in the soil, because it is so fresh. Fresh organic matter like plants is like Fast Food for bacteria. I would have chosen something less tasty for bacteria (composted organic matter, peat moss, etc), so that you don't set up massive decomposition and anaerobic conditions in the substrate.

It might be prudent to wait several weeks after your first addition to see what happens before you add anymore. 

Let us know what happens. Interesting idea for revitalizing old substrates!



Let us know if you think it helps. Interesting idea.


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## Jimbo205

*Fast Food & CO2*

That would be good bacteria and not bad bacteria, correct?

Bottom line to me is - will it make my Mollies sick?

I have cleared out 1/3 of my 10 gallon tank because I think the lush growth of my plants was causing crowding my Mollies and causing them stress.

I have been losing about 1 Molly a week in either one tank or the other. 
I just lost a 2 inch gorgeous Black Lyretail Molly. 
The other Mollies again look fine and so do the 4 new neons that I added.

I have been using the Daily Dosage Schedule with my Seachem products, but wanted to slowly incorporate some things I learned from your book.

Should I take the mulm out, let it dry and then put it beneath the substrate afterwards? I thought this stuff and excess fish food was good.

(It has been 20 years since High School.)

Hmm.....


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## DataGuru

Jimbo: I haven't had good luck at all with Mollies. At first I thought it was something about the NPT, but then I lost more new mollies in a regular tank. Given my experience with them, I really think Mollies are not robust fish.

Thanks for adding the sticky John.


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## cranetech

Jimbo205 said:


> That would be good bacteria and not bad bacteria, correct?
> 
> Bottom line to me is - will it make my Mollies sick?
> 
> I have cleared out 1/3 of my 10 gallon tank because I think the lush growth of my plants was causing crowding my Mollies and causing them stress.
> 
> I have been losing about 1 Molly a week in either one tank or the other.
> I just lost a 2 inch gorgeous Black Lyretail Molly.
> The other Mollies again look fine and so do the 4 new neons that I added.
> 
> I have been using the Daily Dosage Schedule with my Seachem products, but wanted to slowly incorporate some things I learned from your book.
> 
> Should I take the mulm out, let it dry and then put it beneath the substrate afterwards? I thought this stuff and excess fish food was good.
> 
> (It has been 20 years since High School.)
> 
> Hmm.....


I would also take a look at your nitrate levels. Many fish can be sensitive to above average levels of no3. It seems to me the El Natural style would be a low consumption setup of nutrients. (i dont know alot about it and this is only a casual observation) If you are adding nutrients to the water column and also using enriched substrate, you may have nutrient buildup that is adversely affecting your fish.


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## Jimbo205

*Mollies*

Good news.

I have not had any problems with any fish for the last 3 weeks. I have trimmed a good amount of plants out of the tank and had at least 1/3 of the tank opened up for free swim for the fishies.

Of course the Rotala Rotundifloria Green grows like a banshee and I trimmed them so that they were at least as long/tall as the water.

But it does spread quickly.

Did I read from a post in the last day or two that you can take fast growing plants or their offshoots / trimmings to the store to trade for more expensive plants?

I would love to learn how to have an assortment of plants for a 10 gallon tank (someday the 27 gallon tank also) that looks proportional to the tank.

I am just very happy that I finally have plants growing and not just fighting algae and plants that barely survive!


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## Tiapan

my question would be do you have any salt in your tank, mollys love salinity (can even be converted all the way to salt) and do wonderfully in a brackish tank, but only a little salt is necesary to make them happy, but not all plants do well with salt, so u might want to look into that


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## Jimbo205

Seachem Live Bearer Salt. I try to make them happy. Being able to trade in trimmings for Fish Food or other supplies makes my life easier. ( I hope my 2nd trade with the other local fish store was as successful as the first. I have to call back and find out how much credit they ended up giving me but I diverge from the topic and tread. 

Seachem Live Bearer Salt. I aim for happy plants = happy fish. 

:yo:


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## dwalstad

Many livebearers, especially guppies, sold in the hobby are diseased. Those with tuberculosis may last a few weeks before they stop eating and die.

Just something to consider before reaching for the salt or blaming plants/poor water quality or considering Mollies as "fragile".

Here is an earlier thread on the subject.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-for-the-planted-aquarium/16750-diseased-fish.html?highlight=TB


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## Jimbo205

They have been fine for the longest time now. They have not had any more babies that I can see, but they sure do try!

They were all from the same Mother Silver Lyretail I purchased about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago and they were all fine for the longest time. I think maybe that the size of my tank and the number and size of the fish may have had a lot to do with it. Since I have left some clear swimming area in the tank, I have not had any problems that I have found in the last 2-3(?) months.


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## dwalstad

Jimbo205 said:


> They have been fine for the longest time now. They have not had any more babies that I can see, but they sure do try!
> 
> They were all from the same Mother Silver Lyretail I purchased about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago and they were all fine for the longest time. I think maybe that the size of my tank and the number and size of the fish may have had a lot to do with it. Since I have left some clear swimming area in the tank, I have not had any problems that I have found in the last 2-3(?) months.


Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. If you haven't introduced new fish lately to this tank, then what I wrote about problems with diseased fish doesn't apply.

Diana


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## pesciolino

Hallo,
i'm an aquarist from Italy and i have good experience with low and high-tech aquaria. I enjoy "Ecology of the planted aquaria" (italian version) and Ilove it. I think european and american aquaria are very different and I have some doubt. I would like very much to make some questions to Diana Walstad: 
1) In Italy we don't have distinction between pot-soil and garden-soil, but we have "universal soil" - it contains: High % of peat(>50%) and organic matter and few clay (we have also special soil like cactus-soil, geranium-soil grass-soil...). Is it good for natural aquaria? I have good results with it. 
2) Many fishes love and need fine sand, can organic soil became too anaerobic under it? under the sand is to use clay or/and black peat better?
3) In Europe there are many different kinds of lamps. I use succesfully full spectrum cool-white (osram/Philips 4000K de luxe). It,s less blue than "vita-lite"(6500k) but it includes all the colors of sunlight. What do you think abaut it? 
4)Finally I think that hard-water and soft-water plants can live well together in hard water but with few bicarbonate,(without CO2 addition).
Thank you very much,I think I will have other questions.

P.S. I'm sorry for my english!


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## flagg

pesciolino said:


> Hallo,
> i'm an aquarist from Italy and i have good experience with low and high-tech aquaria. I enjoy "Ecology of the planted aquaria" (italian version) and Ilove it.


There's an italian version?! Cool! Our own Diana Walstand, an international celebrity!



> I think european and american aquaria are very different and I have some doubt. I would like very much to make some questions to Diana Walstad:
> 1) In Italy we don't have distinction between pot-soil and garden-soil, but we have "universal soil" - it contains: High % of peat(>50%) and organic matter and few clay (we have also special soil like cactus-soil, geranium-soil grass-soil...). Is it good for natural aquaria? I have good results with it.


Sounds like your soil contains a little more peat moss than most soils I've encountered here. The cactus soil is very good. It probably contains bone-meal or other such additives that will provide hardwater nutrients for the plants.



> 3) In Europe there are many different kinds of lamps. I use succesfully full spectrum cool-white (osram/Philips 4000K de luxe). It,s less blue than "vita-lite"(6500k) but it includes all the colors of sunlight. What do you think abaut it?


You'll find that most people here use a variety of lights. I personally (and, mind you I'm not Diana) haven't seen the Philips 4000K you describe but it sounds perfectly adequate. I've changed all my single-tube fixtures to cool white. Those tanks also get sunlight so there's no need for a full spectrum bulb as that is provided by the sun. My double fixture has a full spectrum bulb and a cool white. I get very good growth in all tanks.



> 4)Finally I think that hard-water and soft-water plants can live well together in hard water but with few bicarbonate,(without CO2 addition).
> Thank you very much,I think I will have other questions.


Both hard water and soft water plants will do well in hard water. However, hard water plants will not do as well in soft water.

Well, I know your questions were meant for Diana, but I hope you don't mind me answering. I'm sure she'll chip in with her thoughts too!

-ricardo

PS No need to apologize for your English, it's a lot better than my Italian!


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## Rattail

I'd also like to hear about the soil...?


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## dennisfermin

*p.h. changes*

I love the simplicity and cost efect. sound of the soil subtrate method. I did test my first soil sample and unfortunately it did cause the ph to drop and as well as the buffering capacity. I was just wondering if this is common or are there many soils that will not effect the ph? My soil did contain peat which I have heard does effect the ph, but I've heard it's also good for plants, any thoughts on the matter? Thank you for you help!
Dennis


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## rs79

Diana said:
>so that you don't set up massive decomposition and anaerobic conditions in the substrate

Well... it's not all bad. For about 15 years now Jim Robinson and I have been putting manure, washers, steel wool, what have you under 5" of fine beach sand. They rust, but under anaerobic conditions the iron reduces to a form usable by plants. We've actually dug up pants whose roots all went for and wrapped around a washer, like a hungry beast going "Mmmmmm... iron".

As long as it's *locked in* by enough fine beach sand (1/5" of #2 silica wont cut it) then an extremely rich substrate does seem to work, and last about 10 years before healthy bunch of plants use most if not all of it up.

Besides, I don't know if you've noticed or not but if you pull up rooted water plants in the wild there is often a strong h2s smell indicating anaerobic conditions. It seems to be pretty natural.

Here's a pic of one of my tanks with this:


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## Tiapan

wow thats a lot of Crypts and they look great


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## t3chn0b0y

The whole thought of using a miracle grow product to house my fish in is a bit disturbing.
Has any one here really looked at the contents of some of their products. I wouldn't even
raise my vegtables in them. large traces of lead,mercury and arsenic.. for example
mircle grow seed starter soil contains 16.3 ppm arsenic.. I get left wondering if they get
their soils from nuclear waste sites and distribute it around the world to scatter it around,
instead of being charged for waste dumps, they make a "killing" in everyone's yards..and the
levels of mercury is staggering also.. http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.asp?pname=2625


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## dawntwister

PlantsAndMe said:


> Javalee, can you give us some examples of generic potting soil? There's so many out there but which one works in a planted tank and what brand are suitable. Thanks


I used organic top soil. I my plants love it. It only cost $1 at Home Depot.


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## PlantMauller

I used a $1.96 bag of topsoil from Walmart. Works great:
http://aquaticamatuer.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/day-10/


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## Bob1

Wow, I am glad I found this site! I have a 90G tank and I am interested in setting up a natural planted tank. I am interested in mid to highlight plants. How much light would you recommend and where would you recommend I purchase it? Thanks in advance!


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## dawntwister

Bob1 said:


> Wow, I am glad I found this site! I have a 90G tank and I am interested in setting up a natural planted tank. I am interested in mid to highlight plants. How much light would you recommend and where would you recommend I purchase it? Thanks in advance!


For lighting I just have 2 flouresant bulbs screwed into wall-mart tank top and light from a south window. Most of my plants hygrophila, java fern and sags. There are all growing.

Diana prefers a mix of sunlight and fluorescent lighting--one to two watts per gallon if the tank does not receive sunlight, less if the tank receives sunlight.

You can build an array of mirrors to concentrate sunlight if you need more than a window. Just cut a mirror into 1" x 1" tiles and siliocne glue one edge to a piece of wood. Use woodscrews on the back, two of them to adjust each tile in two axes. Info found.


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## Bob1

I have a coralife 130W fixture and I have an Eastern exposure I get a few hours of sunlight in Spring and Summer not to much in Autumn and none in the Winter beinng in Mn.


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## dawntwister

According to rs79 anaerobic conditions the iron reduces to a form usable by plants. As long as it's *locked in* by enough fine beach sand. Thus sometimes pulling up plants you also pull up some nasty stuff than can kill fish. Info found at other thread. Just wanted to make those whom use sand beware of problems others have had when transplanting plants.


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## xpistalpetex

could i use Schultz 10 Lb. Aquatic Plant Soil top of generic potting soil, i am asking because i have good experience with the schultz


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## Sterling919

I'm interested in this topic, so I am bumping it up with hopes that someone will continue...


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## xpistalpetex

would be nice to have more members do a step by step process


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## Rattail

Sorry, but I'm too lazy to redo what's already been done. Go read my journal (very detailed) here... http://www.apsa.co.za/Forum/index.php?topic=342.0
I stopped posting long ago, but my aquarium is still up and running with ZERO maintenance. I don't clean the filter, and I only top up the water when the levels drops (once in 6 months?) Oh yes, and the light tubes are almost 2 years old.

I also have 2 tanks outside with no heater, filter, or lights that I set up in exactly the same way. I have eleocharis parvula growing quite well in there - despite everyone saying that one needs light and co2 and a heater to do so. hahaha!!!

For those tanks, please go look here... http://www.apsa.co.za/Forum/index.php?topic=1719.0.

The secret with successfully doing an el natural tank is use natural soil, natural gravel, loads of plants and then DON'T MESS WITH IT!! Let it evolve naturally. 

The proof is in the pudding. (my photos)
cheers!


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## plantblr

Hi all,

How much soil (In kilos/kgs) would I need to cover 1.5" at the bottom with a tank dimension of 42"x18"x18" ?


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## dwalstad

plantblr said:


> Hi all,
> 
> How much soil (In kilos/kgs) would I need to cover 1.5" at the bottom with a tank dimension of 42"x18"x18" ?


I use about 1 gal of soil/sq. foot for a 1" layer of moist soil. I assume that your tank bottom is 42" X 18" or 3.5 ft X 1.5 ft. AND 3.5 ft X 1.5 ft = 5.3 square feet, which means you need about 5 gal of soil.

To convert to liters: 5.3 gal X 3.8 liters/gal = 20 liters soil

Soils will have a different weight depending on how moist they are or how much sand they contain. Therefore, I would base my final calculations on volume for measuring how much soil to use, not weight.

The easiest thing to do is just stick a 1 inch layer of moist soil on the tank bottom. Doesn't have to be exact.


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## plantblr

Thanks Diana.You r a star as usual in your replies .
Its really difficult to find the cheap kind of potting soil with no fertilizers in my area. 
Now,my question is......Can I use the soil that i dig from the forest floor near my house.I found its moist & rich in decayed leaves.Its Black in colour.I thought I'll mix some Laterite & sand in it & then use it.Any advice & suggestions are welcome.

Many thanks
Ravi


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## dwalstad

plantblr said:


> Can I use the soil that i dig from the forest floor near my house.I found its moist & rich in decayed leaves.Its Black in colour.I thought I'll mix some Laterite & sand in it & then use it.
> Ravi


The soil sounds perfect! With the decayed leaf matter, Cryptocoryne will probably love it.

I would not mix the laterite with the soil. Either leave the laterite out entirely or just put it on the bottom glass and then add the 1 inch layer of soil.

You can cover the soil with a very thin layer of sand and or the standard 1 inch of small gravel. I'm not sure that you really need to mix sand with this soil.


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## plantblr

Perfect Diana.......You are a Star again.
So,now my project is tear down the existing set up & reset it up.Probably i'll take time to it.But sure will post the pictures for all the help I have had here 

Many thanks,
Ravi


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## angel4

I am preparing 2 tanks. One tank with 2 inches top soil from Home Depot at the bottom and 1 inch sand on top. The other tank with 2 inches top soil and 1 in gravel. 
The tank with sand looks ok until I had to dig up the sand a little and expose the soil to the water. The water gets very cloudy with a brown color.

The tank with gravel has brown water without much disturbance, I suppose the coarse grain of the gravel allows the water to get to the soil.

I ran a canister filter for 2 days but it does not clear the water much.
Any suggestions? Thanks.


----------



## dawntwister

Angel4 you obviously didn't do a trial test with the gravel. You are going to have to start over the thank with the gravel. The gravel obviously is not small enough to keep the dirt down. 

They help the cycle process put some of the gravel in a thin sock and put it in the tank after you refill it. Also perhaps putting aprox. 4 in. of the water in the restart will be cleared up with the filter.

I don't understand why you removed the sand to the point that the dirt was exposed. What is happening with that the tank with sand? Have you put some more sand on area exposed. Replacing sand is easiest to do by putting in a sock and then pouring it out with sock near the bottom.

Sand can be hard to keep clean. Have read that some vacuum up the top layer and replace it and that others have a lot of corys to keep it clean.


----------



## yum

xpistalpetex said:


> could i use Schultz 10 Lb. Aquatic Plant Soil top of generic potting soil, i am asking because i have good experience with the schultz


yes, schultz works but it's very light and doesn't anchor plants at all. i have it my tank but would not use it again for this reason. other than that, i don't have any issues with the schultz. it has a nice color.


----------



## Kamehamehaaaaaaa!!!!

My first post =] Having read the full thread; I'd like to layer my aquarium as follows, from bottom to top;laterite,dead leaves and iron wool/washers,potting soil,sand. My sources of info from Dwalstad and rs79. I've never had a planted aquarium before, and am looking to learn as much as possible to do an extremely low maintenance planted tank with potential cardinal tetras and red cherry shrimp. Will this setup work nicely, or is there a better way? I plan to use the soil as the topmost layer to "lockdown" what's underneath it, but have also read that it is difficult to clean/vacuum. Also, what the heck is a bottle test? I think the idea is to look for yellow water, but can someone please elaborate a bit more? Thanks. ray:


----------



## dawntwister

Kamehamehaaaaaaa!!!! said:


> My first post =] Having read the full thread; I'd like to layer my aquarium as follows, from bottom to top;laterite,dead leaves and iron wool/washers,potting soil,sand. My sources of info from Dwalstad and rs79. I've never had a planted aquarium before, and am looking to learn as much as possible to do an extremely low maintenance planted tank with potential cardinal tetras and red cherry shrimp. Will this setup work nicely, or is there a better way? I plan to use the soil as the topmost layer to "lockdown" what's underneath it, but have also read that it is difficult to clean/vacuum. Also, what the heck is a bottle test? I think the idea is to look for yellow water, but can someone please elaborate a bit more? Thanks. ray:


You want to set up the substrate in a small container to make certain that the top layer will hold the dirt down. Dirt as the top layer won't work for it floats in the water.

If you can't find small pebbles try pool supplies for pool media or pool filter sand. I had pool filter sand but got tired of it. You have to vacumm it up and replace . Replacing done by putting some in a sock and opening the sock up near the bottom of the tank.


----------



## mommyeireanne

Kamehamehaaaaaaa!!!! said:


> My first post =] Having read the full thread; I'd like to layer my aquarium as follows, from bottom to top;laterite,dead leaves and iron wool/washers,potting soil,sand.


Hold on a minute! Let's get back to Natural Planted Tank basics: soil with a small gravel cap, 2-3 watts per gallon light , water movement and well rooted plants are what you need. Fish food and mulm provide everything else. There is a limit to how much iron/metal plants, DOC's and water conditioner can bind. I think it would kill the shrimp. Too much would be toxic for anything living. And your substrate could rot from the decomposition of the leaves. If you want easy, just do these basics. That's what El Natural is all about. Go back to page one on this thread. Check out Data Guru's post. She has a step by step summary that's short and sweet. Read Diana Walstad's book, it's good. And let us know when you set up your NPT. :supz:


----------



## dawntwister

Now I understand why someone said it is best to follow 1 method. Combining many methods can cause toxic problems. 

Most important thing is lighting equalling plants needs. If you have natural light you might need co2. For Co2 there is flourish excell and diy Co2.


----------



## colinsk

Since your local microbes will infect your tank anyways why not start with local soil? This gives your microbiology a big head start. I live in a flood plane and have collected some great and fertile soil from the river bank. I will post how it works. 

This is suposed to be "El Natural" it seems to be a waste to go to Home Depot. Let nature provide for you!


----------



## dwalstad

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to show you all today's photo of my 50 gal tank. I reset this tank up in July with Home Depot's generic TopSoil. I'm happy with results from this "soil", floating wood chips and all.

Because it worked so well, I'm planning to set up another tank with this soil and a shallow sand cover.

Don't worry about the initial starting bacterial composition; the bacteria that establish themselves will be those that do well in your tank's environment.

I would just follow Data Guru's excellent step-by-step instructions.


----------



## davemonkey

dwalstad,

The tank looks great, I can see how your methods work. I got your book for Christmas and I've read most if it 3 times, and all of it once. It's a wonderful and helpful tool and I wish I had gotten it sooner. Better late than never I guess. 

-Dave


----------



## Eugene

Step-by-step reloading tank in one day: one of the possible substrate organisation.

The tank 240 l, bottom 120x40 sm. For it was used mix of 3 liters of bio-humus (pure humus wich worms produse), 3 liters of close to neutral soil (pH 6,5), 2 liters of zeocarb, 2 liters of lava pieces, 100 gramm of pure blue clay and 70 gramms of peat (hagen, fibre for filters).

All exept peat and clay were put in bucket, mixed and filled with aquarium water. For bacterial preparement there was added dirt from active filter.

For a week it was a flush of ammonia and pH in bucket was about 9 (NH4). Than pH went to 8 and lower - in about two weeks the substrate was ready. I had to reload inhabited tank in one day (as it was no room for long rttping plants and creatures).
I started in the morning, took off all hydrobionts and keeping about 100 l aquarium water.

Than I put one third of substrate, first making gravel barriers around big roots and stones.










Than I put peat (less than pack, it seems a lot, but really it is about 50 gramms of fibre for the whole surface)










and added clay. Than filled with two third of substrate and added 3 buckets (about 30 l) of gravel. I have not neutral gravel, it contain calcium.










Than I placed plants, added about 80 liters of aquarium water and filled the tank from water-supply:










After five hours of filtration-aeration fish and frogs were placed "home". Nobody suffer. 
The tank is OK till today.

What is it: leaving in city and reloading in winter I used for substate only stuff from shops (for plants etc). 
Also it was used in the proportion, known since aquaculture from 19 century: 1 part of soil substrate and 3 parts of gravel (or sand).


----------



## guidedbyechoes

I'm guessing fish that dig are probably not the best suited for this style of setup. I was pondering setting up a self contained enviroment centered around Dollar sunfish, but I think this may be an unwise choice.


----------



## Rattail

And why not? There are no artificial pumps and filters in nature. So why don't you do your homework, find out what the natural environment is like and set up a biotope using the so-called "el natural" principles?


----------



## guidedbyechoes

Rattail said:


> And why not? There are no artificial pumps and filters in nature. So why don't you do your homework, find out what the natural environment is like and set up a biotope using the so-called "el natural" principles?


No I was more worried about them digging up all the plants, but I think I figured a way around that.


----------



## dwalstad

guidedbyechoes said:


> No I was more worried about them digging up all the plants, but I think I figured a way around that.


There's always a solution! I put little stones around plants that my cichlids tried to dig up.


----------



## EMc/

> Diana recommends using mechanical filtration as well.


Diana, this was an old quote, & I'm wondering if this is still what you advocate & if so, why?

Marty


----------



## dwalstad

EMc/ said:


> Diana, this was an old quote, & I'm wondering if this is still what you advocate & if so, why?
> 
> Marty


Sometimes after I've stirred up a lot of soil, I use a mechanical filter to quickly clear the water. Not essential (because the soil eventually settles out anyway), but handy.

The Aqua-Clear submerged powerhead with its Quick Filter attachment is a nice, inexpensive mechanical filter for larger tanks (30 gal and up). It will help filter out larger soil particles.

I like this filter and my Submariner UV Sterilizing filter (for controlling disease and green-water). Both filters are less expensive than a canister filter.

However, any (or no) filter will work. Plants and soil bacteria remove ammonia, so you don't need biological filtration. I've often run tank without any filters.


----------



## EMc/

> Plants and soil bacteria remove ammonia, so you don't need biological filtration.


I'm guessing you meant to say you don't need mechanical filtration?

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that. I have on occasion used mechanical filtration to clear up water I've stirred up, if I'm in an impatient mood.  But, as you said, the particulates settle down eventually, so you don't really need to do it.

Regards,
Marty


----------



## gr8nguyen1

si was reading diane's book and it was also mentioned in this thread several times. why must the soil layer only be 1-1.5 inches? why can't the soil and the gravel top layer be 2 inches or more?


----------



## dwalstad

gr8nguyen1 said:


> si was reading diane's book and it was also mentioned in this thread several times. why must the soil layer only be 1-1.5 inches? QUOTE]
> 
> If the soil layer is too deep, it can easily become severely anaerobic and kill plant roots. Plants grow poorly and you get algae.
> 
> Keep the soil layer 1 inch and cover with only as much gravel or sand as you need to hold the soil down. The gravel cover should not be more than 1 inch.


----------



## gr8nguyen1

thanks for answering all my posts mrs. walstad. your book is great. there is so much useful info. that my mind cant absorb it all in one reading thats why i had to reread it a second time. i might just might read it a third time.


----------



## mhdchan

hi all! i am ridz from Malaysia, Diana, your method inspire me to setting up el natural tank, i use potting soil and some Holland substrate, here some pictures i just setting it up! will be update later.


----------



## davemonkey

Mhdchan, the tank looks good. You may want to plant heavier to avoid a green-water outbreak (but even if that happens it should clear back up in a couple months).


----------



## pepperonihead

*Very interesting*

I would like to eventually set up a natural tank. There is one thing I cannot understand. I keep rainbow fish. They are extremely sensitive to water quality issues and love fresh clean water. Some of you don't change your water for up to six months!??? Why is it that a natural tanks water is so clean and fresh for up to six months and a high tech tanks water is not. I am growing tons of plants in my high tech tank, just like a natural tank, they filter a lot of stuff out and they use the substrate, and fish food and poo for fertilization. I don't fertilize much because of my fish and their food. But I still need to change the water every couple of weeks, if only to get rid of the pee and poo from the fish. It is just like flushing a toilet, what makes a natural tank get rid of this better then a high tech tank? I still think I would need to change some of the water on a regular basis. Please explain to me why I would not have to change the water?


----------



## HVS

Wow. I think I am going to have to try this natural way. I recently purchased a 55g and stand. That's all I have at this point. I've been dismayed with lighting trying to figure out what to get for lighting. I wanted to stay low tech anyhow. This sounds fabulous. 

My tank is in a living room opposite a west facing window. So the tank is actually about 15 - 20 feet across the room from the west facing window. Although it would receive ambient light it would not be very intense. I'm think I may need decent lighting. Perhaps a T8 fixture with 2 32 watt bulbs providing plant spectrum lighting.
I won't need to buy a canister filter like I was going to and I have 3 power heads from years ago that I can attach a mechanical filter to one of in the event I want to clear up clouding of the water.

I need to get Diana's book to read. This is awesome stuff I'm reading here. Thanks...


----------



## dwalstad

*Re: Very interesting*



pepperonihead said:


> I don't fertilize much because of my fish and their food. But I still need to change the water every couple of weeks, if only to get rid of the pee and poo from the fish. It is just like flushing a toilet, what makes a natural tank get rid of this better then a high tech tank? QUOTE]
> 
> Fish wastes are converted to plant nutrients whether they are in an NPT or a High-tech tank. I think that a High Tech tank does can also do waste recycling. It's good that you aren't adding fertilizers. There's no need to-- if you are feeding your fish well and plants show no signs of nutrient deficiencies.
> 
> The key point is that fish wastes are potential plant nutrients.


----------



## Jane in Upton

gr8nguyen1 said:


> thanks for answering all my posts mrs. walstad. your book is great. there is so much useful info. that my mind cant absorb it all in one reading thats why i had to reread it a second time. i might just might read it a third time.


LOL! Welcome to the club!

I'm re-reading the book for probably the 4th or 5th time, and some of the information is only just now sinking in!

Since there is quite a bit of science (and I'm usually not that bad at the science stuff) I think some of it must have hit my brain like the teacher on the Charlie Brown/Peanuts movies.... a muted trumpet... :blabla: whuh whuh whuuuh wah whuh. Only, upon another reading, it suddenly sinks in, and I think "gosh, I'm pretty sure I read this before... but gee that makes sense! (now)"

Keep re-reading, and know that lots of others are doing so as well!
-Jane


----------



## fish_fancy

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the forum and to the hobby. I've been reading about the "el Natural" method and I'm totally sold to it! I plan to use it when I set-up my second tank in a few months' time.

I have just one question, though: will the aquatic plants eventually deplete the nutrients in the potting soil, or will the soil replenish its nutrients?

Hope you can enlighten me.

Thanks!


----------



## totziens

Welcome to the club. Good luck with the new tank. I hardly find any Malaysians who dare to try NPT because most of them are very pro-ADA (too expensive for my taste but no doubt they're nice). Which part of Malaysia are you from?

I am about to convert one of my tanks into a semi-NPT injected with CO2 & having a canister filter. I already have an existing NPT. The plants are already collected/purchased. Just need some time to purchase top soil and re-set up the tank.


----------



## f1ea

dwalstad said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to show you all today's photo of my 50 gal tank. I reset this tank up in July with Home Depot's generic TopSoil. I'm happy with results from this "soil", floating wood chips and all.
> 
> Because it worked so well, I'm planning to set up another tank with this soil and a shallow sand cover.
> 
> Don't worry about the initial starting bacterial composition; the bacteria that establish themselves will be those that do well in your tank's environment.
> 
> I would just follow Data Guru's excellent step-by-step instructions.


Hi diana,

I have just noticed you have a plant that i have a couple of growing well and been trying to ID for a couple months...

its the one on the right of your 50gal tank. Green 'curled/textured' leaves, red stems and red underside. Kinda looks like a crypt or an echinodorus... develops MASSIVE roots.

Please anyone, do you know what's this plant?

thanks!


----------



## JKUK

It looks like Cryptocoryne cordata to me.


----------



## f1ea

JKUK said:


> It looks like Cryptocoryne cordata to me.


Yup, thanks.  Looks like it...


----------



## kleankord

can i get some clarification?

do you wait a couple of weeks like in the setting up link, or plant same day like the 6 gal link?


----------



## dustinsfishtanks

Pepperonihead.

I currently have a 220 and 3 75s with rainbowfish in them. All of which are using the Diana Walstad Dirt method (I have my own tweeks, but...)

Personally I do about %50 once a month on my 220 and it probably only has about 15 Rainbows in it. I am constantly cutting the plants. This past summer I cut a bunch of baby tears and put it in my pond. I now have a 75 full of 1 inch boesmani babies (and they are sweet genetics too)

There are no set rules. Do what works for you. I like to keep my KH higher by adding crushed coral. I also run an airstone because rainbow like lots of oxygen.

http://www.fishtanktv.com/220-planted-fishtank/i-waited-2-years-for-my-220-gallon-planted-tank/

Drop me a line.. Love rainbows in the planted tank


----------



## Chris G

Hey guys i am looking at setting up my new 4 ft tank 

i went to the garden store today and found a soil that said fish friendly. 

the package said 

Composts, potting mixes and other organic gardeing material. These products are made from organis materials. Including compost pinebark and contains licing mocro-organisms. Including bacterias, Fungi's and protozoa. May also contain mineral and fertiliser additives. 

I am worried about those last couple sentences 

Should i keep looking for something else or will it be alright?


----------



## HeyPK

I wouldn't worry about the bacteria and fungi, but I would stay away from compost type substrates that have added fertilizer. Some of them can contain a lot of fertilizer which, when subjected to anaerobic conditions as an underwater substrate, produce a lot of gas and leach a lot of nutrients into the water column causing bad algae outbreaks


----------



## Chris G

It just that was the only thing at the gardening store that was even close i might have to go and have a look for a couple more gardening stores  

Thanks btw


----------



## mthom211

Is soil activator any good? Apparently it's rich in organic carbon, contains micro-organisms and stops the ph from moving around. It also is organic contains no fertilizers or manure and gas no smell. 

Matt


----------



## Extrame

hey guys, 
how do i set up a NPT tank with a big chuck of rock as a center piece?
do i put it the rock 1st then add the soil around it then cap?

thanks,
chris


----------



## niko

You can place the stone either way. But remember one rule:

You must allow for water flow + gas exchange to happen in the substrate.

Meaning that you should not place a huge flat stone over the inert gravel. The inert gravel allows for flow + gas exchange in the lower nutrient rich layer - the "mud". If you cover the gravel with something that interferes with the flow + gas exchange you are doing something counterproductive. There will be less CO2 released by the mud (and plant growth will suffer). But more importantly over time anaerobic processes in the mud will lead to accmuluation of toxic gasses.

I hope you get the idea. If you understand that the gravel needs to have flow + gas exchange you will answer many questions yourself.

--Nikolay


----------



## Extrame

Thanks for the advice niko.

i think i will put the hardscape 1st then add soil around it to make sure i would not be disturbing the water flow + gas exchange process


----------



## roseykat6

PlantMauller said:


> I used a $1.96 bag of topsoil from Walmart. Works great:
> http://aquaticamatuer.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/day-10/


this link no longer in use .


----------



## backflipfrontflip

I have read the whole thread and have a question on beneficial bacteria, are they present in the soil that is added to the bottom of the tank and how is it that these 'terrestrial' bacteria survive well in the tank, essentially causing an instant cycle?

I love the fact that a filter is not necessary on these tanks,among other things cutting down on the electric load of a larger tank.


----------



## Michael

I am not sure how many of the terrestrial bacteria in the soil survive once submerged, but probably not a lot, and certainly not enough to "cycle" the tank.

Plants are what enables us to put fish in an Walstad tank quickly without waiting for the usual cycle. They absorb the ammonia and nitrites that are toxic to the animals. The full community of beneficial bacteria takes time to mature, and the tank is not fully stable until that happens.

While it is possible to maintain a Walstad tank without filtration, a good biofilter is a great safeguard against accidents and mishaps.


----------



## backflipfrontflip

Gotya, so it would work well to use my old filter that is currently running in my tank to establish the BB in the new tank, just like seeding it.

Also, is it possible to do the 'low maintenance' part of the Walstad method in a heavily planted low tech tank. I have only an Inch or so of gravel, is it possible to allow the fish poop to do the fertilization of the plants without the soil base? I currently gravel vac every other week and I am fairly thorough. I add the odd root tab here and there but only every few months, I would much rather fertilize 'naturally'.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I can start a new one if it's preferred.


----------



## Michael

"Gotya, so it would work well to use my old filter that is currently running in my tank to establish the BB in the new tank, just like seeding it."

That is a great idea.

"Also, is it possible to do the 'low maintenance' part of the Walstad method in a heavily planted low tech tank. I have only an Inch or so of gravel, is it possible to allow the fish poop to do the fertilization of the plants without the soil base? I currently gravel vac every other week and I am fairly thorough. I add the odd root tab here and there but only every few months, I would much rather fertilize 'naturally'."

That depends on how well established the tank is, how much mulm is already in the tank, and how many fish. I would try doing no gravel vaccuming for a while, and see how it goes. You need a buil-up of organic matter in the gravel to take the place of soil.

It is possible to add soil to an existing tank. One way is to freeze wet soil in an ice cube tray, then push it under the gravel while still frozen. Freeze it in thin layers, and be sure it is well buried in the gravel--ice floats! You could add root tabs to the frozen soil to give it a boost.


----------



## backflipfrontflip

The tank has been going for about 6-8 months now, it's a 20H that is fairly lightly stocked at the moment.

I have been fairly on top of the gravel vacs so there will not be a lot of mulm under the gravel. I could continue with the water changes for now and allow it to build up and for the plants to really establish themselves, some of them are quite new to the tank and there are more on the way. Over time cut down on the water changes as the plants 'take control'.

Hmmmm Soil in the freezer, not sure the Mrs is gonna go for that one but I'll give it a shot. I could freeze sticks about a half inch thick and slip them under the gravel, that way I would not uproot the current residents too badly.

Will it matter if I don't get a completely even coverage under the gravel? There would probably be pockets that I miss with the soil sticks. I could start the tank from scratch but I have a some really nice Crypt Wendtii mother plants that I don't want to melt.


----------



## Skizhx

The only real issue that I see with using gravel for this type of setup would be that the substrate's nutrient retention capacity would probably be very very low, so correct me if I'm wrong but I anticipate that this would make stability a bit of a struggle to obtain.


----------



## backflipfrontflip

So is it the use of gravel that would be the biggest issue, not the distribution of the soil?

Sand would be better? I'm not too sold on sand.


----------



## Michael

I've been assuming that by gravel, we mean an inert substrate about 2 mm in size--typical aquarium gravel. The reason gravel is an undesireable substrate is that it offers nothing to the plants except a place to put their roots. No nutrients, no carbon dioxide, no ability to absorb and hold nutrients from the water column and release them to plant roots later. Inert sand is no better, and may be worse since it is more likely to compact and cause anaerobic conditions.

The build-up of organic matter in an old inert gravel substrate helps with all of these things. It is counter-productive to remove it by vaccuming. Vaccuming is necessary in a fish-only tank because there are no plants and fewer beneficial bacteria to remove ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.

There are non-soil substrates that have no nutrient value and no ability to generate CO2 from decomposition, but are still better than inert gravel. These substrates do have the ability to absorb and release nutrients to plants because they have a high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Baked clay substances like Turface and cat litter fall into this category. Laterite and maybe Eco-complete also do this. 

One of the great frustrations about selecting a substrate is that we don't have good information about all of these characteristics. I find it especially annoying that manufacturers of products specifically for planted tanks often cannot or will not give this information.


----------



## Skizhx

I would assume that distribution across the entire bottom (more or less) is ideally what you want. But I personally don't think that a few gaps here and there would break the system. I wouldn't expect exact depth consistency to matter so much though, as long as it doesn't get deep enough to encourage dead zones.

I've used flourite black sand for a similar close-to-no fertilzer tank, but I used an AC70 filter and I did use root tabs and performed water changes, etc. It was pretty low maintenance, but not exactly el-natural. I wasn't performing gravel vac though. I've noticed that this sand flows under gravity quite well (doesn't hold a slope, etc). It might be possible to put a layer over your gravel and just let it settle into the crevices

But that's a specific 'sand'. Stuff like play sand from every account I've heard tends to be impossible to grow anything in without adding fertilizer, and the silica content can encourage diatom growth.

I don't know enough or have enough experience to predict what will happen with your tank. Not saying nobody else here does... But IMO there's 3 ways to approach it.

"Don't fix what isn't broken"

"If something's worth doing, it's worth doing properly"

"The true method of knowledge is experiment"


----------



## backflipfrontflip

Well put Michael. That inert substrate is exactly what I have, it makes a lot of sense when you put it as you did. So really if I stop vacuuming, which I don't like doing anyway cos it always disturbs and uncovers the roots, the plants will take care of the rest. I'll keep an eye on my parameters to make sure everything is going well.

I might make some of those frozen soil sticks/cubes too assist in the changeover process.


----------



## jerilovesfrogs

this is interesting....i have a planted 10g betta tank with play sand, and my dwarf sags and narrow leaf chain swords are really growing like crazy. i was intending on adding a root tab....but haven't at this point. i use liquid ferts occasionally. i wonder if i added a root tab (seachem), if i would see even crazier growth. 

but for being such an inert substrate, those plants are doing rather well....and have been for about 6 months. they were slow to get going...especially the chain sword, but now, both are spreading all over. which is good, because i'll take some of them to start my 10g NPT.


----------



## whitetiger61

I have a question..i have ran high tech tanks in the past. With this method will the substrate produce enough co2 to sustain high tech plants like HC , riccia without co2 supplement if the tank is planted heavly.

Rick


----------



## Michael

That is a really good question, and I don't think we know the answer. The other big factor in CO2 levels in Walstad tanks is stocking rates; more fish equals more CO2. I find that I get better plant growth in Walstad tanks (over a year old) if I stock rather heavily. I don't know if this is due to more nutrients, more CO2, or both.


----------



## whitetiger61

well i guess i will be trying it soon..im kinda curious..hopefully curiousity dont kill the cat this time..just need to get some supplies and plants.. anyone want to chime in with their opinions please feel free..

Rick


----------



## naveedpk2001

Hi there! where I live there is no commercial potting soil stuff is available for sale, most of the gardener using River Sand for gardening, it is Gray in colour and it is cheaply available here clay is also available but it is Gray in colour beside red potting clay, If I use Gray top soil with clay and cover it with Golden sand for making an "EL Planted Tank" will it work, I am totally new to hobby please advice.


----------



## Michael

Hi Naveed, and welcome to APC!

Most natural top soils will work in aquaria. Try to find one that does not have a lot of clay, and not a lot of coarse organic matter, like leaves and sticks.

For a cap, use a coarse sand with particle size of about 2 mm.

Good luck!


----------



## naveedpk2001

Thanks for reply, I need some advice more about cycling after filling the tank how many week I should perform fish less cycle in my tank, will you please recommend some stuff to me to the source of ammonia/NH3, I don't want to put House Hold ammonia in my tank, should I do soaking and drying process for soil and clay few times? I have tons of coco husk available in my area so if i use dry coco husk with my soil and clay mixture would it be a good additive to my tank? because many planted tank keeper use peat moss below substrate. My current tap water Ph is 7.8. advice would be appreciated.


----------



## PaulG

Anyone know how to prevent Ph drop in a NPT?


----------



## ianjones

paulg,

check your kh


----------



## filedor.com

I have a question. I already have a tank (20 gal) which is 0 ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates for 2 months (fishless)... it has around 50+ ramshorn (started from just 2 ) and I bought 12 MTS (not sure how many do I have after 2 months ). Plants: Elodea canadensis, java fern mini, java fern BIG one, 3 nice pieces of driftwood, 1.5 garden soil, 1.2 silica sand, echinodorus (not sure what kind is it), and some beautiful Lysimachia nummularia 'Aurea' (golden creeping Jenny). My substrate is still bubbling (1 or 2 bubbles per hour), I usually just drop some fish food to keep my plants with a constant CO2, and they are really nice. Now I want to try something else, before I start introducing my 10 cardinal tetras + 3 siamese eating fishes + 1 betta... I want to have a "Diana Walstad"-based Refugium. I know there is nothing like it but I wanna try because:
- I dont want duckweeds in my main tank
- my Java fern + Echinodorus are way too big for my main tank and I want to have enough space to create my baby tears HC mat.
- I want to have my assasin snail away from my MTS (he eats ramshorn and those black lil snails like crazy... around 2-3 per day)
- I wanna have some red cherry shrimps in my refugium (duckweed section)
- I wanna have my heater in my refugium instead of my main tank
- I will have an pvc overflow, double intake model (similar to: 



)
I know I cant have any water agitation on the surface (e.g. spray bar) because I don't want to loose my precious CO2, therefore the tube comming out from the refugium back to the fish tank should not produce any surface agitation or can it create some little agitation? can I have a spray bar 1 cm away from the surface? or have the tube 1 cm away from the surface? or this tube at the same level as the surface? or the tube going right into the water? which would be my best choice? 
Here is my refugium idea (16 gal tank):


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## Squawkbert

CO2 loss is going to happen, if not as a function of your water return, then almost certainly as a function of the freefall from tank to refugium. Water flow down a stand pipe will certainly allow for some off-gassing of CO2. The longer the pipes, the more CO2 you will lose. Having the sump just below the main tank and using a "right-sized" (as small as you can get away with) pump may help preserve some CO2. Also check out durso designs and other ideas to minimize splashing, noise, CO2 loss (all go together).

Aside from that issue, you can minimize surface agitation by having your return line below the surface of the main tank, if you are O2 deficient, you can turn the spray bar to induce a little agitation on the surface.


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## Skizhx

Personally I'd speculate that a herbie design would be best to preserve CO2, since there's no real "free fall" into the sump...

Another option though would be to do a simple DIY CO2 setup to compensate... These setups don't require a ton of CO2 so I think any sort of simple CO2 production would be more than suitable to meet your needs.

Or you could dose excel?


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## shiroihikaru

Hello, I've been following this topic for quite sometime and very interested in this method since there's very low maintenance. But I'm in the process of redoing my tank and trying to research as much as I can before I get started.
I noticed a lot of the landscapes are pretty flat but I'm interested in doing a rolling hill kind of surface. However Diana suggested that we keep the soil 1"-1.5". Can I add more gravel to sandwich the layers to have the effect of a rolling hill? Are there any suggestions?


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## Michael

Yes, you can add more gravel to create hills. You just don't want to increase the depth of soil over 1.5". You can also put rocks, tiles, bricks, or other inert objects on the bottom of the tank where you want hills, then cover those with the recommended depth of soil and cap. This can be tricky; if you create a slope that is too steep it will tend to slump over time.


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## shiroihikaru

Michael said:


> Yes, you can add more gravel to create hills. You just don't want to increase the depth of soil over 1.5". You can also put rocks, tiles, bricks, or other inert objects on the bottom of the tank where you want hills, then cover those with the recommended depth of soil and cap. This can be tricky; if you create a slope that is too steep it will tend to slump over time.


Thanks Michael for the quick reply! I can't wait to get this started. Do you have any suggestions or techniques to avoid the hill from slumping?


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## Michael

The most common way to prevent a slump is to create terraces with driftwood (uncommon but possible) or stone (the usual choice). Close planting of ground cover plants is another. Some people have experimented with mesh bags filled with substrate then planted through the mesh or holes cut in the mesh. This last technique is difficult with a layered substrate, but still possible.


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## shiroihikaru

Hm stacking stones/bricks/slates is a bit too much if you kind of want a high slope. Would the tank glass handle that much weight? I've never seen people do it with driftwood. Do you stack flat driftwood pieces and then put the soil and dirt on top of it?


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## Michael

The weight is not a problem, especially if you put some plastic egg crate on the bottom of the tank to spread the weight. African cichlid keepers put a lot of rocks in their tanks.

When I mentioned driftwood, I meant to use it on the surface of the substrate as a terrace. Don't completely bury it as this is likley to start some unwanted decomposition.


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## brandontn

I was wondering if any of you had ever used, or considered using, wormcastings in you tanks.


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## Michael

Brandon, welcome to APC!

Somewhere a member of APC posted about worm castings, but I can't recall who or when. You might try searching the substrate forum for worm castings.

P.S. I just did a search of El Natural and there are lots of posts about worm castings, going back to 2006. So there is a lot for you to read.


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## brandontn

Thanks I will check those out. I just knew that we used them in our garden alot and they are wonderful there. I'm a total newb to aquatic plants, except for the water lillies in my koi pond lol.


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## Hoa

OK, I'm about to start my first El Natural tank. Got the top soil and the gravel. The only fine gravel I could find is called Mexican Beach Pebble. Even though it's called Pebble, it's more like coarse sand (1-2 mm size). However, it does have tiny bits of seashells in it. I understand that the seashells may be good if you have soft water. However, my southern California water is quite hard (pH 8.1, 14 dGH, 8 dKH). Would the bits of shell cause problems? Also, if I plan on changing water only once every few months (one of the benefits of the NPT), does anyone know how long the potassium and calcium in the hard water would last from a water change (assuming no seashells in the substrate)? Thanks.


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## Michael

Depending on the amount of shell fragments, this will tend to keep your tank buffered at a higher pH and hardness. You definitely do not need any dolomite or other calcium source in the soil.

I don't think this will be a problem as long as you choose your plants and animals to match the water conditions.


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## Hoa

Thanks. Speaking of choosing the right fishes, this type of water conditions triggers thoughts of African Cichlids. However, has anyone succesfully kept some, like Labidochromis Careleus, in an NPT tank? Would they dig up the soil under the gravel?


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## Michael

Funny you should ask! I keep gold ocellated shell dwellers (Lamprologus ocellatus) in a planted tank. The front 2/3 of the tank has no soil, just 2" of Safe-T-Sorb. This is where the shells are placed. The back 1/3 of the tank has soil under STS. This is densely planted and also protected with large river pebbles to keep the fish from digging there.

The fish stay in the open front 2/3 almost all the time, and they do their famous shell burying tricks there. They have spawned at least 4 times for me, and I have finally figured out how to get more than a few fry to survive. I started out with too many males, and when the dominant pair would spawn, the non-breeding males would eat the fry despite the parents' best efforts to protect them. Now that I have just one male and two females in the tank, the last brood is doing well.

These are the most interesting and entertaining little fish--I highly recommend them! Unlike many African cichlids, they don't eat plants. And their small size (2" max) keeps the damage from digging tolerable for a planted tank.


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## Kfab

Help! Did I do something wrong? Just set up a new 12 gallon tank with simple potting soil, gravel and a few plants and within 12 hours I could barely see through the water!


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## atc84

Is it white cloudiness? This is a bacterial bloom if it is, natural with cycling fish tanks. Water changes until it is fixed.


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## Kfab

The water is a yellow green. No fish have been introduced.


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## GadgetGirl

If it's green, it would probably be algae, but I doubt it is since it happened within 12 hours. If it has a yellowish tint to it it's probably tannins from bark in the soil. Did you soak it first to remove the floating stuff (bark and debris)? If you didn't, that's OK. It won't hurt anything. It just has to run its course. Water changes will help. Keep an eye on your ammonia levels if you didn't presoak and mineralize first. 

Some cloudiness is to be expected the first several days. A good filter with some filter floss will help too. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Kfab

You're right. It's more of a yellow brown. Thanks for your help!


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## pandragon

Hi all

I'm pretty new to aquaria. The only fish I have ever been able to keep alive is the gold fish you get from games at the local fair, but only as long as I dumped them in the big water troughs for the horses. They got along quite well living for years, man they got nearly big enough to eat and loved the slimy algae that attached themselves to the walls of the troughs! I have been trying to figure out how to have an indoor aquarium and not kill my fish, then I found all these "el natural" posts.


I have read this entire thread (and several others) and think I have a decent substrate setup for a semi brackish live bearer tank (mollies platys swords and guppies) with a few clams, shrimps, and a snail. I was hoping I could layer the substrate and add plants without having to mineralize the soil first if i don't add any fauna until ammonia, nitrates, etc balance. (29g regular tank, led lighting, cheap power filter for circulation--top fin kit too cheap to pass up at petsmart)



I live in the Sonoma valley of California with tap water 8-8.5 with caco3 120+ ppm according to water agency (i haven't actually tested my tap as of yet), low magnesium, and unknown amounts of copper (reason for wanting to use RO). I originally was thinking about layering cheap topsoil, dolomitic lime, a touch of potassium chloride, and fine gravel in the back with the plants and and use sand as a top towards the front to provide burrowing places for the clams' siphons to be in view, then I realized that I have no use for a 50 lb bag of dolomite or potassium chloride (which is all I see at the big box stores around here). Then I thought about using just the top soil with a bit of crushed calcium and magnesium vitamins and salt substitute I can get anywhere. Does anyone know if this would work? Any ideas welcome. Would I still need to add crushed coral or another buffer or should I just use tap water and skip the RO all together?

Note I was planning on acclimating the plants to the more brackish conditions after the ammonia and everything dropped before I add the fish since I don't know how the stores around here keep livebearers and I wouldn't want a drastic change in salinity or ph to hurt them even with drip acclimation. Planning for ph 8, 80 deg F, not sure of salinity/specific gravity yet as I will work that out when I am closer to picking out fishies.

Thanks all
pandragon


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Since your water is already high in calcium, you don't need the dolomite. If you are worried about magnesium, just buy some Epsom salts from the drug store, and use it sparingly. You can get potassium chloride from the grocery store, it is sold as a table salt substitute for people on low sodium diets. Again, don't use much.

You can get away without mineralizing the soil, with several big "ifs". Buy the cheapest, low fertility generic topsoil you can find, or use natural soil from an ordinary garden or landscape that has not been treated with synthetic fertilizers or pesticides. Be prepared to do large water changes, and be patient until your water tests show no ammonia, no nitrites, and very low nitrates. Plant the tank heavily from the start, with lots of fast growing stems and/or floaters to absorb excess nutrients. You can take them out if you don't like them when the tank stabilizes after several months.

Good luck! Goldfish are actually not easy to keep in aquaria because they are so big and messy. You need a large tank and major biological filtration. They do much better in the horse troughs just because of the larger volume of water--that's where mine live.


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## pandragon

Thanks a lot, I was worried the sulfur portion of the epsom salts would end up tuning into sulfuric acid or some such that I wouldn't want in my tank, but on the other hand a tiny amount shouldn't hurt anything. Also, "cheapest, low fertility generic topsoil you can find" makes me think the mix of fill dirt and clay I have under the giant road gravel in my back yard might work, although tends to create anaerobic swamp smell in the compost so maybe not. Guess I could try it on one cheapo plant in a small container?

Your reassurance and clarification has given me higher hopes!
pandragon


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## Tugg

MgSO4 is actually the salt produced from Sulfuric acid being neutralized. It's a pretty neutral salt and has very liite effect on pH. Also, Sulfer is a secondary macro nutrient, just like Ca and Mg. Plants will readily take up the sulfate as a fert. They need it too, they just happen to already get plenty of it elsewhere.


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## pandragon

I got my tank all set up with as many plants as I could afford. The first image was a few hours after setting up the substrate--thin layer of baked clay cat litter, a light sprinkling of epsom salt and potassium chloride, back yard dirt that has been sitting for 2 years without any pesticides or ferts (rinsed, strained of large debris, and dried ), a bit more expanded clay on top, topped all with washed river pebbles from lowes.

everything moved a bit when i filled it and i had to replant just about everything even though i poured the water over a plate...think i was a bit impatient with the bucket. Plants seem to be doing ok. 

Second picture was a few days of settling where i found my anubias drooping so i replanted him with his rhizome a bit above the gravel and he perked up overnight. The third pic is after first partial water change ~5g. Won't add fishies till plants fill the tank and amonia/nitrites/nitrates are stable.

6 wisteria
1 unknown anubias
3-5 compakta/kompacta
and a bunch of cheap bulbs apongeeton onion and lilly according to box

temps 78-80
slight trace of ammonia (not bright yellow but not .25 shade o green either)
I am hoping after a few water changes the cloudiness will clear enough to see where my plants are and where the bare dirt spots are so I can cover them without damaging my plants

pandrgon


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## pandragon

Looks like pics didn't attach so here they are.


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## atc84

wow, that's some dirty water! did you try to divert the water from pushing on the pebbles to expose the dirt? 

Also you should start a new thread for your new build in the el natural section (the same as this)


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## pandragon

I drained tank to discover a large area where the gravel made the clay/dirt squeeze out from underneath. I ended up taking plants out and adding more gravel and replanting/filling/ filtering everything and the tank is now slightly milky greyish.-and having other problems I posted about in the proper thread.


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## Cactinae

So are heaters used in Walstad systems?


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## ObiQuiet

Cactinae said:


> So are heaters used in Walstad systems?


I don't think there's a reason to use or not use a heater based on using the Walstad approach to the tank's chemistry and balance. (People who like the low- or no-tech approach tend to dislike heaters, but that's is the only correlation.)

Use of a heater is necessary only if the tank's surrounding environment has ambient temperatures that are below what your fish and plant species find suitable, regardless of the maintenance approach you choose.

Short answer: I use heaters because the tank gets too-cold air off of a nearby window.


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## rmsalaysay

is there any alternative material for muriate of potash for el?, like in mineralizing the soil because it has the material it need like muriate of potash and clay, i have only the mineralize soil (garden) and the crushed clay pot to make it powder, but no luck to find muriate of potash, i live in the philippines guys.


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## Michael

rm, look in the grocery store for salt substitute used by people on low-sodium diets. This is potassium chloride, and can be used instead of muriate of potash. You don't need much, just a light sprinkle on the bottom of the tank before the soil goes in.


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## rmsalaysay

Michael said:


> rm, look in the grocery store for salt substitute used by people on low-sodium diets. This is potassium chloride, and can be used instead of muriate of potash. You don't need much, just a light sprinkle on the bottom of the tank before the soil goes in.


low sodium diet? i didn't heard that people on the diet having to find this in their ingredient diet food. for example what name of the brand or product of the salt substitute? my mineralize soil is now on the pending due to lack of material i need for el T_T

The Clay i used is from tera cota or flower vase i bought in garden LFS, i crushed it not even powder but thats okay ?

Michael thank you so much <3 i'm gonna put my image on this, i was trying to build this el to my 5 gallon since i having a 20G i want to try it first in small tank so i'm not gonna break down if i fail on my 20 Gallon.

Greetings,
Roy, Philippines


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## BarryR

I have a 1 gallon planted tank using Miracle grow Organic Choice. I just removed the sticks and clumps from the soil and put a 1" layer in the bowl and planted my plants before covering with a thin layer of sand. I did not put a large number of plants in there, i have 5 or 6 small plants. It has been going for about 5 days now and I noticed that the ammonia shot up past 3ppm so I did a 50% water change to bring it back down to 3 ppm.

Is this what I should expect to see?


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## Michael

Miracle Grow Organic Choice is made with poultry manure. This will cause an ammonia spike. Even though Diana used it in her shrimp bowl in the on-line article, most of us avoid it or mineralize it before we use it.


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## BarryR

Michael said:


> Miracle Grow Organic Choice is made with poultry manure. This will cause an ammonia spike. Even though Diana used it in her shrimp bowl in the on-line article, most of us avoid it or mineralize it before we use it.


Okay I obviously did not mineralize it. Should I start over and mineralize it or will the bowl stabilize within a reasonable time, I don't want it to be months before I can put some shrimp in the bowl.


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## Michael

Since it is just a bowl and you don't have any shrimp in it yet, I would start over with mineralized soil. It will also help if you can plant heavily right from the beginning.

I set up my very first Walstad tank with MGOC straight from the bag. It was a 20 gallon, and it took 6 weeks for the ammonia to go down enough for fish. And this was heavily planted with a biofilter running! Fortunately I had the time, and eventually the tank was fine. But now I use a good mineralized topsoil with lots of healthy plants and can add fish within a few days.


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## BarryR

Yea I think starting again is what I need to do. I will leave the bowl up so the plants are managed while i prepare some soil.

Thanks


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## BarryR

So I started again. This time I soaked the organic choice to get the floaters out and put a 1/2 inch layer on the bottom of my 1 gallon bowl covered with a thin layer of sand. It has been about 2 weeks and there is no more ammonia so I added 2 small White Cloud Minnows. Nitrite is present which I am managing with frequent water changes to keep it under control until nitrite disappears and nitrate levels are present.

I am starting to understand why heavy planting is needed. The idea i believe is to remove the ammonia before it can turn into nitrite and eventually nitrate. But if my thinking is correct that requires the production of ammonia in just the right quantities. Too much and the plants cannot keep up and nitrite levels rise and too little and the plants don't get enough ammonia. I have read that too little ammonia for the plants can be managed by adding live stock or reducing light to take the plants out of overdrive. Too much ammonia can be controlled by the opposite, remove live stock and increase lighting. But these are all theories posted on the internet and fist hand experience is the only way to discover what really works. Either way El Natural in a small 1 gallon bowl is a challenge.

The White Cloud Minnows are doing well because I keep a tight control on water quality which is perhaps slowing the establishment of nitrifying bacteria but i will take that over hurting the fish. The lack of water circulation is also a concern but now that i have the Minnows in there their swimming creates a little water mixing. How much that helps is unknown.


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## BarryR

Success! :hail:

My Walstad method 1 gallon planted bowl has finished cycling, it only took about 10 days. Ammonia is zero, Nitrite is zero and I never saw any Nitrates, perhaps due to the plants and yes i shook the damn #2 Nitrate test bottle till I was blue in the face.  The 2 White Cloud Minnows are doing fine and I may add a couple of Red Shrimp but no more than that.

I was going to do a partial tear down and change the way the plants are laid out to make room for a Betta but I have no place to put the Minnows so I will leave it as is for now.


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## Jirka from Bratislava

Hi Diana!

I have 30 aquariums or nanotanks. I put soil for houseplants under the substrate for houseplants. A little. A one handful or several handfuls. It depends on size. The total height of the substrate is often only 2-3 cm. Some of my plants are 80 cm tall. I have 60-70 species of aquatic plants and 19 species of wilde lifebearers. I'm not using a filter, heater or chemie. My bowls and some of my nanotanks stay on window only with daylight (direction westsouthwest or nortwestnorth). 5 of my bowls or aquariums are 16 years old, still with the same plants. Only a few years ago I found your book and found, that you are doing and recommend something very similar. I like it! Thank You! I'm not alone .

One friend of my make her aquariums exactly according to your book. 
Google Translate https://translate.google.cz/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https://rybicky.net/profil/37109
And we are in a little conflict. So I want to ask you: 
1) When do you recommend placing fish in the aquarium?
My style is wait and watch. There is no exact time. Plants must grow. When they do not grow and there are already fish in the aquarium, algae are more common and this is a problem. It is harder to solve a plantproblem with fish in an aquarium. So I watch. It can be 1-3 months. And first i put there only few fish. The smaller the better. My friend last time put there fish 3-4 species after one week. They are alive (mostly), but now she has a problem with algae. I think, she should wait.
2) How many species of plants do you recommend for aquarium start? Isn't less species and more pieces better?
I think the plants species are fighting each other. 10-30 species for start is ok, if you don't know anything about plants, but if you are an experienced aquarist, is better to use only 3-6 species and get as many pieces as you can have and is possible. My friend put there 35 plant species https://rybicky.net/nadrze/30763 and she said, this is because is it exactly your method.

Finally, I would like to ask what you think about aquariums without filter because you do not write directly about it in your book.
I'm sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker.
With regards from Bratislava (Slovakia, EU - 60 km from Vienna)
Jirka Ščobák
https://translate.google.cz/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https://rybicky.net/profil/39356


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## hoppycalif

Welcome to APC! You have a lot of experience with this type of aquarium, so I hope you will be coming back often to share that experience.

Incidentally, I agree with you that fish should not be added until you have good plant growth.


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## Jirka from Bratislava

https://rybicky.net/fotogalerie.php?sekce=nadrz_denicek&c=24631&s=210921


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## zolteeC

hoppycalif said:


> Incidentally, I agree with you that fish should not be added until you have good plant growth.


Yes, it is always important to look for new growth with a fresh setup. Many plant species shown signs of growth already in the first 1-2 weeks with a good setup. In some cases NO2 or other "toxic" spikes can unfortunately occur after this.
When you can put in shrimp or fish depends a lot on the dirt used and the overall setup. Its - of course - better to be on the safe side than be sorry with this. However, I would not rule out that putting in fish even in the 1st day could work. Probably not something that someone who is doing first attempt with a NPT setup should try .


----------



## mysiak

Jirka from Bratislava said:


> And we are in a little conflict. So I want to ask you:
> 1) When do you recommend placing fish in the aquarium?
> My style is wait and watch. There is no exact time. Plants must grow. When they do not grow and there are already fish in the aquarium, algae are more common and this is a problem. It is harder to solve a plantproblem with fish in an aquarium. So I watch. It can be 1-3 months. And first i put there only few fish. The smaller the better. My friend last time put there fish 3-4 species after one week. They are alive (mostly), but now she has a problem with algae. I think, she should wait.
> 2) How many species of plants do you recommend for aquarium start? Isn't less species and more pieces better?
> I think the plants species are fighting each other. 10-30 species for start is ok, if you don't know anything about plants, but if you are an experienced aquarist, is better to use only 3-6 species and get as many pieces as you can have and is possible. My friend put there 35 plant species https://rybicky.net/nadrze/30763 and she said, this is because is it exactly your method.
> 
> Finally, I would like to ask what you think about aquariums without filter because you do not write directly about it in your book.
> I'm sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker.
> With regards from Bratislava (Slovakia, EU - 60 km from Vienna)
> Jirka Ščobák
> https://translate.google.cz/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=https://rybicky.net/profil/39356


Ahoj Jirko! Glad to see another guy from Slovakia here 

1. I guess the safest way how to answer this is to use water tests. If there are plenty of healthy and fast growing plants and NO2 is zero and NO3 low enough for a few days, it should be safe to add livestock. One has to be careful with soils containing high amount of artificial fertilizer. Nitrate respiration might occur (NO3 is converted to NO2) after few days after soil submersion. Waiting for months is a bit overkill, even if it's a safe bet (although, depending on the soil used, you might starve your plants). For impatient people it's a good idea to have selective ion resin (Szat clear water in our region) at hand and use it in emergency when NO2/NO3 is too high.

2. I think that Diana's recommendation is good. Plants which grow like a weed in one tank will just slowly die off in another. Providing an abundance of species will ensure that at least some are going to get a strong hold in the tank. It is expected that maybe only half are going to survive and spread across the aquarium (but you can't really tell which ones exactly in advance). E.g. I had an extremely good success with Sagittaria subulata in one tank, yet it won't grow at all in the second one, no matter what I do.

3. I tried to run a nano tank without a filter. Technically it worked absolutely fine, yet I noticed increased growth of plants and more lively behavior of fish with a little bit of water movement. I believe that filter in terms of biological filtration is not essential, but water movement is beneficial to plants and livestock as well.

Just my 2 cents


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## Jirka from Bratislava

Yes, but with soil in substrat you don't need livestock (fishes) so much. Little snails are enough and some Neocaridina davidi can come a bit later.

Boys, I need an answer from Diana. For my friend, she is the only one authority.


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## mysiak

Not necessarily true. It all depends on the content of the soil, plants, light etc. Soil will get depleted of macro and most probably also micro nutrients at some point. Can be in a few months (many fast growing plants and stronger light) or after many years (mostly slow growing plants and low light). Fish food is there to replenish especially macro nutrients.

Your tanks are mostly "dimly" lit as far as I remember, so soil should provide enough nutrients for a very long time.

I am running tanks with "medium/high" light and tons of plants and this combination depleted the soil pretty much completely in less than a year. Now I must dose daily liquid micro ferts and overfeed the fish to provide macro nutrients.


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> Not necessarily true. It all depends on the content of the soil, plants, light etc. Soil will get depleted of macro and most probably also micro nutrients at some point. Can be in a few months (many fast growing plants and stronger light) or after many years (mostly slow growing plants and low light). Fish food is there to replenish especially macro nutrients.
> 
> Your tanks are mostly "dimly" lit as far as I remember, so soil should provide enough nutrients for a very long time.
> 
> I am running tanks with "medium/high" light and tons of plants and this combination depleted the soil pretty much completely in less than a year. Now I must dose daily liquid micro ferts and overfeed the fish to provide macro nutrients.


Also it can be an option to add fresh soil into the tank.That also contains some organic matter and humus that may release CO2 trough decomposition. This has always stimulated new growth for me with older tanks.
In some cases I am also adding peat into filter if I have one. But anyways, some soils can last a very long time if there is not too much cleaning and reasonable fish food input.


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## mysiak

zolteeC said:


> Also it can be an option to add fresh soil into the tank.That also contains some organic matter and humus that may release CO2 trough decomposition. This has always stimulated new growth for me with older tanks.
> In some cases I am also adding peat into filter if I have one. But anyways, some soils can last a very long time if there is not too much cleaning and reasonable fish food input.


That's a very good idea and I always wanted to try this, but I haven't figured out how to create small soil "sticks" which I could push into the substrate. For me it seems to be the only option if I don't want to uproot/disturb half of the tank. I'm thinking about freezing soil in a form, but can't find suitable one. Anything bigger (like ice cubes) would be next to impossible to push into the substrate, there isn't enough space between plants.


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> Ahoj Jirko! Glad to see another guy from Slovakia here
> 
> 1. I guess the safest way how to answer this is to use water tests. If there are plenty of healthy and fast growing plants and NO2 is zero and NO3 low enough for a few days, it should be safe to add livestock. One has to be careful with soils containing high amount of artificial fertilizer. Nitrate respiration might occur (NO3 is converted to NO2) after few days after soil submersion. Waiting for months is a bit overkill, even if it's a safe bet (although, depending on the soil used, you might starve your plants). For impatient people it's a good idea to have selective ion resin (Szat clear water in our region) at hand and use it in emergency when NO2/NO3 is too high.
> 
> 2. I think that Diana's recommendation is good. Plants which grow like a weed in one tank will just slowly die off in another. Providing an abundance of species will ensure that at least some are going to get a strong hold in the tank. It is expected that maybe only half are going to survive and spread across the aquarium (but you can't really tell which ones exactly in advance). E.g. I had an extremely good success with Sagittaria subulata in one tank, yet it won't grow at all in the second one, no matter what I do.
> 
> 3. I tried to run a nano tank without a filter. Technically it worked absolutely fine, yet I noticed increased growth of plants and more lively behavior of fish with a little bit of water movement. I believe that filter in terms of biological filtration is not essential, but water movement is beneficial to plants and livestock as well.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


Hello Jirka,

Sorry, I didn't get to your questions sooner. Honestly, I think that Mysiak answers your questions here beautifully--probably better than I could. 

Welcome to APC!

Diana


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## Jirka from Bratislava

Hello Diana,

thank You a very much for you answer! 

I want to oppose in one think: The plants, that you give a large amount, will will often grow best. I've never lost a single Cryptocoryne becketii, affinis, pontederiifolia, usteriana, wendtii, evae, Tropica, Flamingo, cordata, legroi, Mi Oya, tonkinensis. Every single cyptocoryne I plant, grows. The same is Vallisneria gigantea, Valisneria spiralis, Aponogeton crispus, Anubias barteri, Monosolenium tenerum, Pogostemon quadrifolius, Stuckenia pectinata, Zosterella dubia, Echinodorus Amazonicus, Tropica, Lodwigia repens, Najas horrida, Nymphaea zenkeri, Lomariopsis lineata and a lot of other plants. When you can do the aquarium a bit and you use large amount from one species, they will grow. Of course, is possible, that sometimes it not work, but thist risiko is smaller then 50%. So the best, what you can do is plan ahead a little . My opinion.


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## dwalstad

Impressive! To grow many species in the same tank, I had to keep the more _enthusiastic_ species under control. That means monitoring the tanks and occasionally pruning and thinning. (I routinely had to snip off _Cryptocoryne_ sp at the roots to keep them from taking over tanks.)

Some people, in contrast, are just happy to get plant growth of any kind and are not interested in managing their tanks. It's a personal choice.

Send us a picture of your tank with all these species so that we can be inspired! (I assume that you are not injecting CO2.)


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## Jirka from Bratislava

No CO2. I have all this species in 30 tanks or nanos . Often only 3 species in one tank. I leave the most enthusiastic species to grow. And it not looks wrong. 
For example https://rybicky.net/fotogalerie.php?sekce=nadrz&c=24775&s=0&sl=0 
or https://rybicky.net/fotogalerie.php?sekce=nadrz&c=24655&s=0&sl=0 
or https://rybicky.net/fotogalerie.php?sekce=nadrz&c=25141&s=73&sl=0 
or https://rybicky.net/fotogalerie.php?sekce=nadrz&c=27409&s=146&sl=0


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## Michael

Jirka, very interesting tanks! I love tanks with lights mounted high and lots of emersed growth.


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## Jirka from Bratislava

Thank You, Michael!


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## dwalstad

Thanks for sending photos. The tank with water lilies is absolutely gorgeous.


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## Gordo33

I am interested in starting a NPT. Can I use this bag of potting soil?


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## davemonkey

Gordo33 said:


> I am interested in starting a NPT. Can I use this bag of potting soil?


Yes.


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## hoppycalif

The material seems to have perlite in it, which can cause you to have to remove the floaters many times as it gets away from the cap on the substrate. It isn't harmful, but it is a nuisance. You would possibly find a better material if it was an un-branded material, where adding things to the mix isn't done much. I used "Black Gold" from Ace Hardware and had good results with it.


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## mistergreen

You can put the dirt in a bucket, fill it with water can skim off the perlite. It's not too bad.


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## maico996

Miracle-Gro Raised Bed Soil is almost the same. It has less total nitrogen (0.09%) and no perlite.


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## Gordo33

My concern is the added ferts that are listed. This product was recommended to me by a club member . I have read several articles recommending to get soil without added ferts.


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## davemonkey

The added material is mostly natural, though (feather meal, bone meal, etc.) which means it’s mostly a slow release. That’s something I would aim for in a soil for substrate purposes. Aside from the perlite (as mentioned above), I would not hesitate in the least on using this.


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