# Guppy Grow-out Tank



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'm using this 20 gal long to grow out a nice batch of 43 fry from my best female guppy guppy. She's big, beautiful and almost a year old. These juveniles are only 2 months and extremely fit. RCS are doing fine alongside the fish. There's no filtration in tank, just gentle air-bubbling. 

I use plants to purify the water. Fish and shrimp provide water circulation.

I did put a scattering of STS on the bottom. Otherwise, plants are in pots with garden soil and a little bit of bone meal mixed in as fertilizer. The fleshy, kelp-like plant I forgot name of, but it is a good grower. Anyone know name of it? It's in the front of tank on lava rocks. 

One photo show left side of tank, the other the right side.


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## FlatfishTanker1 (Mar 13, 2020)

I think that's Subwassertang, or Pelia. Have you ever tried Guppy Grass as a floater? If you can get some, it's pretty nice for conditioning water. It pearls like crazy in my no filter, no heater tank. My shrimp and Mountain Minnows love it.


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## FlatfishTanker1 (Mar 13, 2020)

Also, since you are using potted plants, have you seen the new rock-styled pots made by Aquarium Co-op? They are made to fit the common 2 inch pots that many aquatic plants come in. They look pretty nice. I think it's a good idea.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Gorgeous guppies! The plant is _Monosolenium tenerum_.


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## FlatfishTanker1 (Mar 13, 2020)

Is liverwort the common name for monoselenium tenerum? Can this stuff grow on top of soil in an enclosed terrarium?


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

FlatfishTanker1 said:


> Is liverwort the common name for monoselenium tenerum? Can this stuff grow on top of soil in an enclosed terrarium?


Liverwort can refer to a number of species. Not sure if M. tenerum specifically can be grown emersed, but some can. If you are looking for a terrarium plant, with very high humidity, Porella pinnata is a great one.


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## FlatfishTanker1 (Mar 13, 2020)

So I did a search for m. tenerum, and I ended up right back on this site reading a thread started by you, davemonkey! Full circle. Some were even calling it Monkey Moss! So I guess you are the guy to ask. Do you still have some of this moss? After working with it for some time, is it your opinion that it does better emersed than submersed? I'm just starting to enjoy making closed terrariums. I would love to get some of this moss from you if possible.

Wayne


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

FlatfishTanker1 said:


> So I did a search for m. tenerum, and I ended up right back on this site reading a thread started by you, davemonkey! Full circle. Some were even calling it Monkey Moss! So I guess you are the guy to ask. Do you still have some of this moss? After working with it for some time, is it your opinion that it does better emersed than submersed? I'm just starting to enjoy making closed terrariums. I would love to get some of this moss from you if possible.
> 
> Wayne


Ha!! Maybe it was the one about Porella pinnata (definitely emersed, and not submerged). 
Here's one from 2004 about M. tennerum, that describes how to grow it emersed:
https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com...enium-tenerum-pellia-emersed.html#/topics/113


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

It’s been about 10 years (way back in the day... I was a mod back then and lived in an area along the east Texas coast rich with potential aquarium plants). If I recall, I started sending out Porella to see if folk could get it growing submerged (it typically grows above water, subject to periodic flooding only...very tight niche and margin of habitat). 
I think that was the one we jokingly called Monkey Moss. 
Ludwigia glandulosa x palustris was another (Beauty in a planted tank) that we started to send out, but two of us left the hobby at the same time (life and such) and the other guy went on vacation, only to return to 200 gallons of dead plants due to a failure in high tech system.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Most people call _M. tenerum_ by the incorrect genus name Pellia, under which it was first introduced to aquaria. Both are distinct from subwassertang, which is actually a fern prothallus. Yo gotta love science!

It will grow emersed but the humidity must be very high.


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## Phatboyaa (Jun 15, 2020)

That's a gorgeous tank Ms. Walstad! Did you breed guppy solely as hobby or do you sell it also?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## seadreamer90 (Jan 19, 2011)

Those are some gorgeous guppies (and plants)! Are they as lavender as they look?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Michael said:


> Most people call _M. tenerum_ by the incorrect genus name Pellia, under which it was first introduced to aquaria. Both are distinct from subwassertang, which is actually a fern prothallus.


Thank you Michael! Somehow I got the plant at an aquarium meeting mis-identified as subwassertang and dismissed it as just a little too weird. Plus, I couldn't find any identification in my plant books. But over time, it multiplied and won me over. It grows sort of loosely on the STS substrate and lava rocks with no roots. I'm surprised _Monosolenium tenerum_ isn't more popular, because it grows well and is unusually pretty.

Today, I potted some Guppy Grass, another one of those "plant contaminants" from my aquarium club. It's got roots, so I think it will do better if it has access to soil nutrients.

Not selling my guppies at this time. I am trying to increase their longevity and am using them to learn more about their genetics and reproductive biology. I will let you all know when I post articles about it on my website. There's a great deal of scientific information on them that is not in the aquarium hobby.

The male guppies have sky blue bodies due to the Japan Blue gene on the Y-chromosome. The color sometimes looks lavender under certain artificial lighting.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Those guppies are almost as bright and colorful as neon tetras. Are these a hybrid or do they reproduce true? I'd like to know where to get a few of these.

Is there a name for these and a source?


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## seadreamer90 (Jan 19, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> Not selling my guppies at this time. I am trying to increase their longevity and am using them to learn more about their genetics and reproductive biology. I will let you all know when I post articles about it on my website. There's a great deal of scientific information on them that is not in the aquarium hobby.


I'm intrigued by the longevity project. I've never been successful with guppies in spite of every aquarium article ever saying they're easy, so I finally gave up my serial killer ways and stopped buying the poor things. I'm now wondering if it wasn't me at all......I'm looking forward to your articles.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Guppies are easy for most people, even the dime store variety. I wonder what you were doing different from most successful guppy owners.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

seadreamer90 said:


> I'm intrigued by the longevity project. I've never been successful with guppies in spite of every aquarium article ever saying they're easy, so I finally gave up my serial killer ways and stopped buying the poor things. I'm now wondering if it wasn't me at all......I'm looking forward to your articles.


They do best in high GH waters, not so good in soft water, and you have to do water changes once in a while.


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## seadreamer90 (Jan 19, 2011)

I tried for a few years off and on at different houses, all on hard untreated well water in Florida. I did big 50% weekly water changes. That’s why it’s such a mystery to me. I’ve got the guppy blues......


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

weird. Florida water is prime for livebearers. What do they usually die of?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

seadreamer90 said:


> I'm intrigued by the longevity project. I've never been successful with guppies in spite of every aquarium article ever saying they're easy, so I finally gave up my serial killer ways and stopped buying the poor things. I'm now wondering if it wasn't me at all......I'm looking forward to your articles.


Please don't blame yourself. Modern guppies are very tricky to keep alive. Some people get lucky, but that's the exception.

Most strains are genetically weak. They have little disease resistance and are physiologically unfit. They may do okay for the breeder in semi-sterilized tanks, but the fish themselves cannot adapt to new situations or the typical hobbyist's tank, no matter how good the care.

One major contributing problem: Almost all guppy breeders keep progeny only from young stock (e.g., first 1-3 broods of females). Breeders start with a new generation about every 5-6 months, a common practice that inadvertently weakens the population.

To select for longevity/fitness/disease resistance, I am only keeping progeny from males and females that have lived at least 6-8 months. (Believe me, quite a few very fit-looking guppies have died unexpected on me at 5 months!) That way, genes from these weak, disease-susceptible individuals are gradually removed from my breeding stock. I've increased the lifespan of males from about 5 mos. to 12 months; reproducing females, 5 mos. to 10 mos. Wild guppies have a lifespan of over 2 years so I have a long ways to go and much more to learn, but I'm satisfied with my progress.

I have two articles that might be useful to those wanting to keep guppies: Part 1 and Part II.

My guppies are all descended from outcrosses between swordtail and Blue Grass guppies.

Attached are pictures of some _potential_ breeders in my 10 gal tank. Males are 8 mos. old and females 6 mos. I haven't saved babies from them yet, but will in about a month or two.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Oh, interesting that you mentioned they only live for a couple of years or less. I've never had one older than 1.5 years. I have tiger endler/guppy hybrids. This is an exceptional male, but typical.


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## seadreamer90 (Jan 19, 2011)

Those are some beautiful fish, Diana and Mister Green! I’ll read those links with great interest, Diana. I had no idea they lived such short lives even in the wild. 

Mister Green, I don’t know what they died from. I assume bad genes now, but back then the internet wasn’t heard of so I had no way to research or ask like now. All the other fish were fine and continued to be healthy pre and post guppy additions. Mollies died quickly as well. Guppies and mollies.....the very fish you’d think would thrive in that water. (One of my cats is named Mister Orange, lol)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> Oh, interesting that you mentioned they only live for a couple of years or less. I've never had one older than 1.5 years. I have tiger endler/guppy hybrids.


Very pretty male!

When you crossed Endlers with guppies, did you ever see abnormalities in the progeny (F1 or F2)?

Explanation: When I crossed my homebred strain with a very pure Blue Grass strain, I got lots of abnormalities. For example, almost 50% of both males and females in one batch were hermaphrodites ("mules"). Attached is picture of a normal female and an abnormal female who had only a small gravid spot. The abnormal females were sterile (i.e., they contained no eggs), while normal female had eggs. Another picture shows an abnormal (swollen belly) and normal male from this same batch. Reproductive problems?

I believe that outbreeding depression, an undiscussed phenomenon of guppy breeding, caused this problem. It can be resolved but first has to be acknowledged!

Before this experience and others, I had assumed that outcrossing is totally good, because it increases genetic heterozygosity. However, many scientific studies show that there are potential side-effects with outcrossing. My experience seems to confirm this and adds complexity to the subject of improving longevity via outcrossing.

Hope you can enlighten me/us with your experience.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Sorry, I bought the endler guppy hybrid from an aquabid seller (AdrianHD) years ago so I don't know what went into it.

I can say that the females are full guppy size and the males are relatively endler male size.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Appreciate the feedback. It looks like you received some very nice guppies. In delving into this, I chanced upon a video showing the F1 progeny from mating a Tiger Endler male to a female guppy. HUGE variety in the offspring phenotype.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

yeah, I get all sort of colors from them. I've kept 3 separate populations and seen they've self selected different phenotype. One tank, I just saw 2 males that look like the original endler with clear regular tails.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> I've kept 3 separate populations and seen they've self selected different phenotype.


You mean that the 3 populations have developed a certain characteristic phenotype? It so, that is really cool.

Explanation: I am writing a major article on guppy mating behavior. There's much recent scientific information that female guppies bias paternity--via behavior and physiological means-- towards preferred males. (Males have their own set of tricks to enhance their paternity.) Guppy mating looks like a random free-for-all, but apparently there's considerable strategy involved.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah, it's wild. The 75G, males has more black in the body but more varied in shapes and colors. 5G, males have all spear tails. 10G, males are all light, blond, except for the 2 'wild' endler colors. It could be from environmental factors as well. The tanks are all different in setups and size. Bigger tank can hold bigger populations, etc...

The blonds don't look that good. I think I'm going to step in for once and choose the 'wild' endlers.


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## seadreamer90 (Jan 19, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> Guppy mating looks like a random free-for-all, but apparently there's considerable strategy involved.


Just a typical Saturday night downtown at the pubs, lol.


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