# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Still baffled by H2O inbalance



## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

I have made some changes to my 240 gallon to create better tank conditions. However, it seems that I now have a new problem with algae. I got rid of the overflow and sump and have 2 Eheim 2028's. I have injected CO2 and the tank looks like a champagne glass. However, the water is now starting to get cloudy with green and red algae coating the back glass and the leaves of several slower growing plants. All plants were root plants, though I got a bunch of stem plants a week or so ago and dropped them in to help suck up excess nutrients. Most plants are crypts and grasses, with a few swords. I got some Water Sprite, Anachrious and Ludwigia, as well as some floating plants. I thought these would help tone down the algae problem.

I just switched to straight tap water as I was using a mix of RO/DI and tap, but I thought straight tap might correct the problem. I was thinking that I must be low on one or two particular nutrients, but don't know what they are.

Vitals are:
pH 7.5 (though was 7.0 when 50/50 H2O mix)
KH 3dH
GH 8dH (was 6dH with 50/50 H2O mix)
NO2 < 0.3 mg/l
NO3 10ppm
NH3/4 0 ppm

Been dosing with Flourish (4 capfuls twice per week)
KNO3 3/4 cup per week
CO2 - was in acceptable zone, but now out of optimum area. Never the less, pearling and bubbles are abundant.

Oh yeah, got all new lighting from AH Supply 672w total...2.8watts/gal, 10 hours/day

Any idea what I am missing or what is causing this algae issue? Are my plants just not growing quick enough to suck up all the excess nutrients? Should I just get bunches of stem plants and drop them in the tank?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Keith


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## Ben C (Apr 16, 2006)

what does "3/4 cups per week" of KNO3 mean exactly?


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

And, what are you using to add PO4 to the tank? If the PO4 is bottoming out, that could cause algae, especially green spot, to flourish.


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Thanks for responding!

3/4's of a cup means that I mix a quart of distilled water and KNO3 at a time. I calced out 1 tsp per 1.5 cups of distilled water then multiplied by 16 to make a quart. So then I figured what I need for a 240 gallon tank./ It comes out to 3/4's of a cup.(my bad for not giving correct info)

Not adding any PO4 other than what is in the existing tap H2O or in the Flourish. How can I check for this and which kind of Phosphate should I be adding? I was under the impression that the Phosphates actually cause the algae blooms....am I wrong? Certainly interested in what you have to say about PO4 and how to measure and get it in there!

Keith


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

I think the presence of phosphates leading to algae was a common belief not too many years ago. Now most ascribe to keeping all nutrients, including PO4, "in balance". Personally, I've ordered KH2PO4 from Greg Watson, and I use a RedSea PO4 kit to test my levels. My current PO4 target level is 2.0.


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## Ben C (Apr 16, 2006)

i too use KH2PO4 to add PO4, although i'm aiming for 1ppm still.

the general consensus these days is that PO4 should be 1/10th of the NO3 in your tank. ie a ratio of 1:10 (PO4:NO3). If you have 20ppm of NO3, you should aim for around 2ppm PO4. 

letting one nutrient bottom out will most likely lead to algae.

i ordered my KH2PO4 through a small local pharmacy.


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

OK, I got the Fleet enema solution, but I am unsure how much to dose for a 240 gallon.

Anyone have the answer?

Thanks

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Keith,

I can't answer the question on Fleet and from your specs above I'm not sure that will fix the problem.

You recently made a lot of changes in your tank. Usually algae is the first thing that responds to a tank change. Any major change in an aquarium can be followed by an temporary algae problem. It is usually sufficient to maintain good conditions and the algae problem will fade.

That said, I'm not sure you have the conditions you need. The main problem is not with PO4 but -- as before -- with CO2. With 7.5 pH and 3dGH your CO2 system is getting you only about 3 ppm of CO2. You might have 3 ppm of CO2 in the tank if you didn't add any CO2 at all.

In past photos of your tank the plant density has been fairly light. With more light on the subject the plant density becomes more critical. The stem plants you added were good choices. In addition to adding the right plants, you need to make sure you add the right *number* of plants. It takes a lot of plants to populate a 240 gallon tank.


Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Thanks Roger...I have been gradually going towards 100% tap water, but in talking to a LFS over this recent issue, I was told that our tap water at the moment has a lot of phosphates in it and this may be adding to, if not THE problem.

I guess I am just going to have to gradually keep making changes until the happy medium is found.

One thing to note, some plants have kicked into high gear since the changes. I just got a few bunches of Glosso and they are sitting at the front of the tank and are pearling like mad. My Baby's Tears have all of a sudden doubled, maybe triplied in size.

I did notice some of the rooted plants having yellowish growth, so I just added some iron to help out.

Enough of the ferts and such for now.

I would like to know how I should test for all these elements. Is there a kit that will tell you how little or too much of one fert component or another?

Lastly, All that I have in my filters are coarse, medium and fine filter fabric. Should I have any other kind of media in there? What about adding charcol as a temporarily measure?

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> I have been gradually going towards 100% tap water, but in talking to a LFS over this recent issue, I was told that our tap water at the moment has a lot of phosphates in it and this may be adding to, if not THE problem.


So your choices seem to be: You aren't adding phosphate and that is your problem -or- You have phosphate and that is your problem. I'm not sure you can win on that one









More likely the algae problem has little to do with phosphate levels, high or low.



> I guess I am just going to have to gradually keep making changes until the happy medium is found.


I think most of us end up doing that regardless of what method we initially use. Your methods have to be tailored to the needs of your tank, your schedule and your preferences.



> I would like to know how I should test for all these elements. Is there a kit that will tell you how little or too much of one fert component or another?


You can get kits for phosphate and iron. Neither of them are especially reliable or useful. There are a few other tests available, but their value is questionable. No test will tell you whether a given level is too high or too low. For that you need to keep an eye on the health of the plants.



> Lastly, All that I have in my filters are coarse, medium and fine filter fabric. Should I have any other kind of media in there? What about adding charcol as a temporarily measure?


The media you have is fine. Activated carbon has been shown to take trace nutrients out of the water, so its a good thing to avoid.

Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

OK then...I guess we sit back and watch what happens.

Thank you for the help!

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Unless you want a non-CO2 tank (which is about what you have) then you probably should do something to get the CO2 levels back up.


Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

OK...Now I'm REALLY baffled!

I checked the pH this morning before the lighting and CO2 came on and it was at 7.0.

Tonight I just checked the pH again after 8+ hours of lights and CO2 and the reading is 8.0. I checked it twice! 

All plants are oxegenating and pearling.

What would make the pH go up??? I haven't added anything to the water today other than change 55 gallons worth to RO/DI. The RO/DI water pH is 6.5. 

The last couple of days the water has stayed murky green.

Tomorrow I plan to do another RO/DI change of 55 gallons.

But why is the pH up???


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## elcaddis (Apr 16, 2006)

liquidgardens, according to your first post, your kH is only 3degrees. That's not a lot to buffer any pH change, which may explain the varying pH measurements. Maybe consider adding baking soda. Also, your nitrite is high too. It should be 0ppm.


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Huh? The Nitrate levels are recommended to be 40ppm or less for fresh water according to the test kit. Mine is well below that.

As for the KH, my understanding is that 3dH is also recommended for proper stabilization of pH at the minimum. It never caused a problem before.

Am I missing something here?


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## elcaddis (Apr 16, 2006)

I was referring to nitrite NO2. Your nitrate NO3 is fine. Maybe those Eheim2028s are still young, bacteria need time to establish.
As for kH, 3dH maybe enough for no CO2. Since you are injecting CO2, raising kH is a must.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

So much for "sit back and see what happens" eh?

The pH is high because there's almost no CO2 in the water. Consider that you have a CO2 system that isn't working, plants growing under fairly high light using the CO2 that's available and you just added 50 gallons of water without CO2 in it. 


Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

I did the water change in the morning before the lights came on. I checked the pH later in the evening after 8+ hours of CO2 and light.

If I have no CO2, why does my tank look like a champagne glass with all plants oxegenating like mad? I checked the pH again today and same thing.

All I am doing right now is making regular water changes.

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> If I have no CO2, why does my tank look like a champagne glass with all plants oxegenating like mad?


Lots of plants will bubble in bright light even without adding much CO2.

A few weeks ago I had a problem with the CO2 system on my 150. The bubble counter was bubbling at it's usual rate and by mid afternoon the plants would bubble too, just not at quite their usual pace. The pH was about 7.8 -- same as my tap water -- and the tank was growing more algae than I was used to. It turned out that the seal around the top of the bubble counter had a leak. There was almost no CO2 getting into the tank at all.

With a pH of 8 the CO2 level is about dKH/3. If you have 3 degrees of KH then the water only has about 1 ppm of CO2.

Plants growing in bright light can pull CO2 down to zero and force the pH over 9. If you don't add enough CO2 then the pH in a brightly lit tank will be high.

Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Hmmmm, maybe that's it. The plants are sucking up all of the CO2 I am injecting...wasn't like that before the algae started. Maybe we have a case of the "chicken and the egg", meaning what caused this problem.

I will move the CO2 reactor into the tank and out of the overflow....which incidently gets recirculated by one of the filters.

Thanks yet again.

Keith


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

So it now appears I am at 7.0 pH and KH is 3dh. This gives me 10.5 ppm. Though this is on the chart I have as a desirable zone, it seems like that isn't very much. However, without the injected CO2, the plants do not oxygenate. I have green water still, but I can see the plants pearling and bubbles are everywhere on the glass. The tank is certainly putting on a show that there is CO2 in there.

I am using a reactor and mini powerhead for CO2 injection which certainly looks like it is doing the job. I have no water agitation what so ever, so I cannot see how I am getting CO2 loss. How could I possibly get more CO2 into the water...I just don't see how. Does the green water stablize the pH and not allow it to drop?

Another thought was the tubing used from the CO2 tank to the reactor. I am using the blue silicon tubing normally used for air stones and bubblers. Could I be losing CO2 out of this tubing? Should I be using something different?

I have been just watching the tank to see what it will do...even took it's temperature







...79 degrees.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Keith,

It's always possible to add another CO2 reactor to get more CO2 into the water.

Are you still using overflows? I wonder if that might be part of your problem. I had a surface skimmer set up on one of my tanks. It worked like a mini-overflow. I injected CO2 through a hose barb connected to the horizontal water line out of the skimmer. Unlike a real overflow, only a part of the total flow to the filter went through the skimmer. The balance went through a submerged inlet.

Plants were bubbling, but the CO2 levels dropped when I started using the skimmer. I upped the CO2 flow rate a couple times to compensate and didn't get much reaction. The CO2 levels were only about 6 ppm; pH 7.6 or so and KH of 7.

Last weekend I took the skimmer out of the tank. I didn't see much difference in the way the plants bubbled so I didn't think much about the change. This morning I measured pH and found a surprising 6.6 before the lights went on -- about 50 ppm in round numbers. I tested after I got home from work and the pH was 6.8 -- about 35 ppm. Taking the skimmer out bumped my morning CO2 level from 6 ppm to about 50 ppm!

The CO2 flow rate is the same now as it was before I took the skimmer out. I suppose it's possible that some of the CO2 I was injecting was getting upstream in the skimmer and escaping without dissolving. Otherwise the whole difference was due to the change from a skimmer to a fully submersed inlet.

Regardless of it's cause I don't notice a difference in the tank appearance and behavior between 6 ppm and 35 ppm. That lack of change supports my early experience. Most of the benefit that aquariums get from added CO2 comes in increasing the pH to 10 or so. There may be some changes as the CO2 level increases beyond 10, but the returns are seriously diminished.


Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Actually, I got rid of the overflow problems completely. What I have now is one of the Eheim 2028's intake at the bottom of the overflow and the water level in the tank above the overflow grate. Essentially, there is no water agitation as the water level in the overflow and the tank are the same. The other Eheim 2028 inlet is at the other end of the aquarium.

I do have another CO2 tank set up, but I would need to make another regulator.

I still have very green water. I did a water change yesterday and cleaned the filters. I even stuffed in some fine filter fabric in both filters to try to filter out some of the algae. Even got a box of Phos-X and put in one of the filter baskets...figure it couldn't hurt.

It's been a couple of weeks of GW and I am getting concerned as it doesn't seem to be going away topo quickly, but I will wait a bit more.

As for my question on the CO2 tubing, is it possible I could be losing CO2 permiating through the tubing?

Keith


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by liquidgardens:
> Actually, I got rid of the overflow problems completely. What I have now is one of the Eheim 2028's intake at the bottom of the overflow and the water level in the tank above the overflow grate. Essentially, there is no water agitation as the water level in the overflow and the tank are the same. The other Eheim 2028 inlet is at the other end of the aquarium.
> 
> I do have another CO2 tank set up, but I would need to make another regulator.
> ...


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

You aren't likely to lose a lot of CO2 permeating through the tubing, but you might check the tubing for holes. I've had silicon tubing that developed holes at points where it was pinched.

Back to the overflow for a moment, I recall that you said there was no turbulence. Turbulence was not the problem I was thinking of. My thought was that using overflows makes all of the water in the tank move to and across the surface before it flows into the filter system. Any time water is circulating at the surface it will lose CO2 to the air.

If there is no overflow and the inlet is deep in the tank then the water flows to the inlet entirely under the surface. There is less circulation at the water surface and less chance for CO2 loss.

I think you can get valves that would let you run two CO2 reactors off from one regulator.


Roger Miller


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