# My Experimental Algae Repulsion Tank



## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Behold: "The Lost World"

The "Lost World" was a tank that was created out of an "emergency need." When my 20 gallon non-planted tank sprung a leak, I had little choice but to transfer all the fish to a 10 gallon spare tank. The "Lost World" was the only refugee or safe haven for these fish, who were forced to flee their home.

The forced transfer resulted in an overstocked 10 gallon tank and forced me to think about what steps that I could take to best accomodate the fish and prevent excess bioload problems.

I also considered this a blessing in disguise because it gave me an opportunity to experiment with some controversial algae prevention measures, many of which flew in the face of conventional wisdom.

Read More About What The "Lost World" was set up to accomplish by clicking here.

"Lost World" Specifications

Tank Size: 10 Gallons

Date Started: July 22 2007

Equipment: Aquaclear 200 containing, polyfibre, bag of purigen, and bag of ceramic rings/seachem matrix stones + Hagen Elite Mini Submersible Filter containing polyfibre and garden peat moss(to promote beneficial microorganisam and added circulation) + sponge filter connected to air pump + 9 watt "AA" brand Ultraviolet Sterilizer with powerhead.

Substrate: Regular gravel mixed with fluorite and schultz aquatic soil.

Lighting: Canopy from 20 gallon retrofitted with 2 18 inch undercabinet fluorescent fixtures with one 15 watt terrestial plant growth tube(Aoguang - dont't know much about specs for this as it came with one of the fixtures and I have not seen replacements matching that name) and one 15 watt Phillips Plant and Aquauarium tube for a total of 30 watts.

Fertilization: PPS-PRO

Ihabitants: female betta, Bolivian Ram, Keyhole Cichlid, 3 Ottos, a Bristlenose Pleco, neon tetra, and an Amano Shrimp.

Comments: My experimental Algae Repulsion System. Will the "Lost World" be successful in permanently repelling the forces of algae without c02 and Fluorish Excel backup, or will be over-run with algae over time?? Is algae part and parcel of having a planted tank and unavoidable as the experts allege?? Will these combined anti-algae preventative measures solve one imbalance only to create another imbalance leading to other problems?? Those are the million dollar questions. Stay tuned; the battle lines have been drawn. This is a work in progress.

The "Lost World" uses a "machine gun" approach to prevent algae. You can think of it has a fortress designed to repel algae. "Beauty is also in the high of the beholder." I am not a master aquascapist, but too me this is a beautiful tank. I tried my best to address both "form" and "function." Unfortunately, the pictures don't do justice to this tank. The tank looks 100% more beautiful in person. You'd really have to see the tank in person to appreciate it's beauty.


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

LMAO

the thread title alone was hilarious hahahahha


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

erijnal said:


> LMAO
> 
> the thread title alone was hilarious hahahahha


Hmmm.. Don't know what to make of that response  I hope you find the title only hilarious but not the concept. Regardless, I learn by experimentation and testing. I am not here to win popularity contests. Laugh if it makes you feel good.

Regards.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Sounds interesting. I'll be looking forward to follow-ups.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Bert H said:


> Sounds interesting. I'll be looking forward to follow-ups.


Thanks . So far, no sign of algae, and growth rate seems phenomenal, but only two weeks have elapsed. Also, I am still waiting for some barley straw to place in the tank. Growth wise, I am seeing the rate of plant growth in 3 day intervals that I have only seen in 7 day intervals in tanks that I set up in the past. Lol, must be all that fish waste from an overstocked tank combined with PPS-Pro.

Regardless of what happens, I will post an update in 3 months, then again in 6 months. That is usually when I have observed, algae creeping in with the tanks that I have set up in the past. And that initself is interesting, considering that it is said that algae normally become less vs more of a problem as a planted tank ages and matures. It is such inconsistencies in what I read and what I observe that motivate me to experiment and test things for myself.

Regards


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

I am curious about your water params in terms of hardness (kh and gh). What are they?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Bert H said:


> I am curious about your water params in terms of hardness (kh and gh). What are they?


As tested by "reputable" Laguna test kits.

KH is on 10 mg/l - allegedly not considered optimal for plant growth. Recommendation on test kit is to adjust with appropriate buffer as this is less than the ideal 20mg/l level.

GH is 80 ppm - this would place the water in the slightly hard level.

For what it's worth, PH is: 6.5.

I am still awaiting the nitrate, phosphates, and potassium test kits and once I receive this, I will update my web page.

At this point, given that plant growth is so rapid, I am not going to monkey around with the water by adding any buffers to increase KH.


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

haha don't be so quick to take offense Homer, I just liked the wording. Made me think of a spaceship

In terms of keeping algae away, I think it's fully possible. Clado seems to be an algae that ambushes even a perfect set-up though, considered any preventions for that?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

erijnal said:


> haha don't be so quick to take offense Homer, I just liked the wording. Made me think of a spaceship
> 
> In terms of keeping algae away, I think it's fully possible. Clado seems to be an algae that ambushes even a perfect set-up though, considered any preventions for that?


Sorry, I took your response the wrong way.

As far as clado goes, good question. The Cladophora aegagropila in the form of moss balls that I have put in the tank is not known to spread beyond its spherical form, unlike other forms of cladophora. Also, the cladophora aegagrophila by feeding off the same nutrients that my give rise to other forms of clado, "in theory" may prevent other forms of clado from taking residency in the tank. I have read that having some minimal algae in a tank is a good idea because it can fend off a major algae outbreak.

To be honest with you, this is more about having fun than worrying about whether this will work or not. Isn't that what a hobby should really be about? Having fun and learning  For me successes and failures are learning opportunities.

On a side note, according to this AquaticGuru article, the tank I set up has all the ingredients conducive to a algae take over. 
http://www.aquaticguru.com/article-algae-problems.asp


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I wouldn't be too concerned about the "aquatic guru". I read about half of that page and found that I can't agree with much of anything he/she said. I'm very interested in seeing how your experiment works out. And, I have no predictions, yet.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned about the "aquatic guru". I read about half of that page and found that I can't agree with much of anything he/she said. I'm very interested in seeing how your experiment works out. And, I have no predictions, yet.


hoppycalif, I have a lot of respect concerning your knowledge and experience re: planted tanks. Relative to you, I have lots to learn. I am curious as to your suggestions on the following. I tested my tap water and found it very high in phosphates (3.5 Mg/l), the tank water also measures very high in phosphates at (over 5 Mg/l). The high tank water phosphates I can understand, considering that the tank is overstocked. I know that phosphates within reason do not promote algae growth in of themselves(high ammonia levels are more likely to contribute to algae growth), but levels this high can be contributing factors. I am at a crossroads about whether I should leave phosphates out of the PPS-Pro recipe altogether, or leave things as is and see if the algae counter measures can sufficiently repel the formation of algae in light of extremely high phosphate levels and levels that are likely to continue to climb in light of the fact that my tap water already contains very high levels of phosphates.

Any suggestions?

P.S.: It is said that using substrate fertilizers are one way to prevent algae. Allegedly plants can feed through their leaves and their roots but prefer to feed through their roots. Algae on the other hand likes to feed on nutrients in the water column and must compete with plant leaves for natural nutrients(uneaten or digested waste). Using substrate fertilizers apparently "locks in" nutrients that can only be accessed by plant roots and not algae. And I guess as long as you don't have an overstocked tank where fish waste is excessive, as long as you don't have very few plants in relation, as long as you are not overfeeding, as long as you are keeping up with water changes, "in theory" using only substrate fertilizers should prevent or keep algae to a minimum.

Source: http://www.malloftheworld.com/aquarium/part2.htm

Perhaps, I should have gone with substrate fertilizers instead of PPS-pro as an added strategy for algae prevention. Oh well, too late for that, once the outcome is determined, I have another 5 gallon tank to experiment with.


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## gf225 (Mar 26, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned about the "aquatic guru". I read about half of that page and found that I can't agree with much of anything he/she said.


FYI Peter Bradley is a Practical Fishkeeping magazine contributor.

But so am I. And thankfully the readers now know that NO3 and PO4 aren't the enemy.

EI has just been added to their glossary page.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

With that high a PO4 level in your tap, I would leave it out of the recipe. You can increase your K2SO4 amounts accordingly to maintain the same K levels. I don't personally agree with the substrate feeding vs water column feeding. Check out Jason's root tab experiment here. The section with only root tabs fared the worst. In regarding to levels needed by algae to thrive, they're infinitesimally smaller than the plants, so I don't believe you can ever starve the algae.



> ..."in theory" using only substrate fertilizers should prevent or keep algae to a minimum.


Lots of theories look good on paper. Having said that, I also know that each tank will have its own idiosyncrasies and needs. I have learned that with my own tanks which don't follow what you hear and read they should. 

What might be intersting in your system(s) with that high a PO4 out of the tap, is to see if differing ratios of NO3/PO4 have any effect on growth, algae, etc. Keeping all else the same, vary the NO3 levels/dosing and see what happens.

Being in science, I know how hard it is to really ascertain a cause/effect relationship. In an aquarium it's even harder due to our fish populations, feeding and their contributions to the system.....but it's fun.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Bert H said:


> With that high a PO4 level in your tap, I would leave it out of the recipe. You can increase your K2SO4 amounts accordingly to maintain the same K levels. I don't personally agree with the substrate feeding vs water column feeding. Check out Jason's root tab experiment here. The section with only root tabs fared the worst. In regarding to levels needed by algae to thrive, they're infinitesimally smaller than the plants, so I don't believe you can ever starve the algae.
> 
> Lots of theories look good on paper. Having said that, I also know that each tank will have its own idiosyncrasies and needs. I have learned that with my own tanks which don't follow what you hear and read they should.
> 
> ...


Lol, just when people think that they have algae all figured out it surprises. I guess that explains why it has been around for millions of years and outlived dinosaurs.

Many thanks for the feedback and excellent suggestions. I have left the P04 out of the PPS-Pro recipe. Based on your experience, what ratios of N03 do you think would be a good starting point to experiment with and what would be good starting points as far as increasing the K2S04 level goes to maintain the same K levels. Perhaps, I should post this in the ferts section and ask Edward for suggestions.

Thanks again.
Regards


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Before trusting your phosphate test kit, be sure to calibrate it. That is a very low concentration to expect a cheap test kit to determine with accuracy. And, many people have found their phosphate test kits to be inaccurate.

Obviously if you really do have that much phosphate in your tap water you can be "dosing" adequate phosphate just by doing regular water changes, so it makes sense not to add more. Just remember, the plants eat the stuff, so it does need replenishing some way.

Some nutrients will stay beneath the substrate when you use root tabs, etc. for fertilizer, but others won't, and I think phosphate and nitrate are the main ones that don't stay under the substrate. I agree with what Bert said, too.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> Before trusting your phosphate test kit, be sure to calibrate it. That is a very low concentration to expect a cheap test kit to determine with accuracy. And, many people have found their phosphate test kits to be inaccurate.
> 
> Obviously if you really do have that much phosphate in your tap water you can be "dosing" adequate phosphate just by doing regular water changes, so it makes sense not to add more. Just remember, the plants eat the stuff, so it does need replenishing some way.
> 
> Some nutrients will stay beneath the substrate when you use root tabs, etc. for fertilizer, but others won't, and I think phosphate and nitrate are the main ones that don't stay under the substrate. I agree with what Bert said, too.


Okay, many thanks. Please excuse my Homer Simpson ignorance, but how does none calibrate a phosphate test kit?? I know that it is not best to go by City Reports re: water parameters, but given that the tap water analysis breakdown the city provided me indicates a relatively high amount of phosphates combined with the phosphate test kit showing very high tap water phosphate levels, I am going to refrain from using phosphates in the PPS-Pro recipe for now.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Since your water quality report seems to agree with your test kit trusting it isn't a bad idea. But, if you do want to calibrate it, just get some distilled water from the grocery store, add a carefully measured amount of KH2PO4 to get some known concentration, then dilute with more distilled water so it calculates to have the concentration you want to calibrate at. Then dilute again by half, with distilled water and check it again. That gives you two good calibration points.

KH2PO4 is 70% phosphate, so to get 10 mg/liter, add 10/.7=14.3 mg of KH2PO4 to one liter of distilled water. Thats probably too small a weight to measure, so use ten times that much for 100 mg/liter (ppm) of phosphate. Then dilute it 1 to 9 parts of 100 ppm mix to distilled water, to get a 10 ppm standard. Etc.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> Since your water quality report seems to agree with your test kit trusting it isn't a bad idea. But, if you do want to calibrate it, just get some distilled water from the grocery store, add a carefully measured amount of KH2PO4 to get some known concentration, then dilute with more distilled water so it calculates to have the concentration you want to calibrate at. Then dilute again by half, with distilled water and check it again. That gives you two good calibration points.
> 
> KH2PO4 is 70% phosphate, so to get 10 mg/liter, add 10/.7=14.3 mg of KH2PO4 to one liter of distilled water. Thats probably too small a weight to measure, so use ten times that much for 100 mg/liter (ppm) of phosphate. Then dilute it 1 to 9 parts of 100 ppm mix to distilled water, to get a 10 ppm standard. Etc.


Many thanks for that information


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

What is the latest on the "lost world" project?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> What is the latest on the "lost world" project?


Wow, someone that is actually interested in this.

To be honest with you I didn't think anyone cared given the number of hits my update page on the project was getting.

The algae has not reared it's ugly head yet. Growth is still occuring at a phenomenal rate, especially with the egera dena and tiger lotuses(I had to pull a few and place them in my 40 gallon as they outgrew the tank too quickly) There were some potassium deficiency symptoms, but we are talking about only a few leaves. One anubias leaf that went yellow with a brown hole in the centre, a couple of cardamine leaves that turned yellow, and a Cryptocoryne willisii leaf that went yellow. Crypt melt is the slowest on the Wenditii that I have ever seen. In past tanks, all the crypt leaves would have melted by now. Anyways, I pruned the yellow and melting leaves. i don't have a potassium test kit and ordered one from the supplier you recommended. These are the updated water parameters after one month. Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrates: 40 ppm, Phosphates 5+, PH:7, Iron: 0, GH: 100ppm, and KH:30 ppm.

This is when you start asking yourself if you need to drastically alter things to create more of a balance. I mean no algae, water is crystal clear, plants are growing like crazy(the few yellowing leaves are hardly noticeable and since it is so minor you wonder if this is not just natural die off as opposed to a potassium deficiency or possibly even from the huge tiger lotus leaves blocking off too much light). Needless to say, I started adding some seachem potassium and am debating about whether to add iron or not and alter my fert scheme and dose nitrates seperately to balance the nitrates.

I am posting periodic updates on the web page I created at: http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

I really need to get a camera and get comfortable taking pictures so I can post these on my web page as the tank progresses. Right now, I am relying on my sister and given her hectic schedule, she cannot always come into the city and take pictures.

On a related note, I had tons of barley straw left over so I decided just for the heck of it to place some of this(in some pantyhose where water agitation and light are maximum as this is needed to activate the chemical reaction- conversion of lingins to humic acids which are known to inhibit and prevent algae) in my 10 gallon and 5 gallon hex that had a stubborn case of brown dust algae. The type you need to scrape off with a credit card. To date, nothing had worked in getting rid of this algae(overdosing excel, fert schemes, c02 injection, etc.,). After putting in the barley straw, I noticed clear circles beginning to form in some spots where the algae was. It's like when you have a fogged up windshield and turn on the heat and clear expanding circles beginning forming on the glass. It usually takes 1 month for the barley straw to completely work in clearing a pond, so it is too early to tell whether the glass will totally clear. But, to me, what I am seeing in 3 days since putting the barley straw in seems promising, at least for a possible treatment of brown dust/possibly green dust algae.

Thanks for taking an interest in my project and thanks for all your help on this forum. It is much appreciated.

Best Regards


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Wow, someone that is actually interested in this.
> 
> To be honest with you I didn't think anyone cared given the number of hits my update page on the project was getting.


Make that at least two of us.  Glad to see you're still working on this! It seems that so far you have proved to yourself that, (at least in your system ) , relatively high levels of NO3 and PO4 don't seem to cause algae, assuming your 40ppm NO3 and 5ppm PO4 are accurate.



> I am posting periodic updates on the web page I created at: http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld


 Keep us posted here as well, if you can. 

Interesting results on the barley straw.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Wow, someone that is actually interested in this.
> 
> To be honest with you I didn't think anyone cared given the number of hits my update page on the project was getting.


Make that 3, at least. Keep us posted please.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

I am interested in the barley straw method, as well. I assume that it makes your water brown colored?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Kelley said:


> I am interested in the barley straw method, as well. I assume that it makes your water brown colored?


Nope, I don't see a noticeable difference in the color of the water(i.e., it does not seem any darker) on both the 5 gallon Hex and 10 gallon with the brown dust algae. But it may be too early as I have only had the straw floating for a few days. I am guessing that if the water is going to darken it would likely be after a month of having the barley straw in, but then maybe not as I am performing 50% weekly water changes on both of those tanks. Both these tanks do not have purigen in the filter.

With respect to my 10 gallon lost world tank, I am using purigen in the filter media and a UV sterilizer. I have never had a case of brown dust or green dust algae in any planted/unplanted tank where I have used a UV sterilizer, so this creates some difficulty in determining if the barley straw alone in this tank would be responsible for preventing the formation of brown dust or green dust algae. Also, the use of purigen may help keep the water crystal clear but may also interfere with the effectiveness of the barley straw as a brown dust algae preventative. Barley straw works when light hits the barley straw and in the presence of adequate surface oxygen results in the formation of 
Lignins which are then converted to humic acid. It is the hydrogen peroxide formed from the action of light on humic acid which is said to inhibit/prevent formation of some types of algae. According to Seachem, the lignins will be too big a compound for Purigen to impact but the humic acids may be filtered. 
For anyone interested in testing or experimenting with barley straw as a algae preventative, here are a couple of excellent links. I would also suggest testing with super concentrated form of barley straw extract vs barley straw as the barley straw may take 1 month or longer to work but the extract should take effect right away. 
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/plants/barley.htm
http://www.pondsplus.com/Infofiles/art03.htm

P.S. I am not touting this as a be all end all algae treatment or preventative for all types of algae, but if it works in preventing or treating some kinds of algae, it is nice to have as another weapon in our arsensal against algae, besides just excel or UV sterlizers, and it is much...much...cheaper if it can accomplish the same thing against some of the same types of algae.

Regards


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Major Update(Sep 1 2007): 

Water Parameters: PH: 7.0, Temp: 30 degrees celcius, Ammonia:0, Nitrites:0, Nitrates 20+ ppm, Phosphates: 5+ ppm, Iron: 0.1 ppm, GH: 100 ppm, KH: 20 ppm 

Greenspot algae and BGA(Blue Green Algae) rears its ugly head.









I had first noticed traces of the BGA on the outside edges of the filter bag with the barley straw. Then noticed it on one of the the free floating rotala indica stems. The BGA had not migrated to the rest of the tank or stems and I believe that the UV Sterilizer may have helped prevent its spread. I immediately cut off the infected stem and discarded it and I rinsed the filter bag with barley straw. If I could do things differently, I would use barley straw extract from the start instead of straw as I believe the decay of the straw which is required for the production of lingens and humic acid needed to inhibit some types of algae may stimulate Blue Green Algae. The problem is that I am still awaiting the barley straw extract that I ordered from an E-Bay supplier. Although he got the payment promptly, he shipped the extract out late, so I won't receive it for another 2 weeks. That is the last time I deal with that supplier!! The tested nitrates were over 20 ppm at the time of the discovery, which raises the question of whether lack of nitrates fuels the growth of Blue Green Algae. Also, it would appear that Egera Densa and whatever antibiotic substance it is know to produce to prevent Blue Green Algae could not prevent the growth of Blue Green Algae. The Egera Densa was the fastest growing of all the plants in the tank, with the exception of the tiger lotus, and had put out numerous stems. And yet Blue Green Algae materialized.

The Green Spot Algae was visible on some cardamine leaves. It had not spread to the glass. The glass and water remain crystal clear. It is said that lack of phosphates,lack of c02, and exposure of older plant leaves to high light causes this type of algae and there is not much you can do about it. It is considered normal in small amounts in a tank.

http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_algae.htm

Well, I am a believer but am not sure if it caused by lack of phosphates as the measured phosphates were 5+ and even if the test kit results were in question, I have an overstocked tank and given the waste produced by the fish(especially the bristlenose pleco) and the fact that phosphates are still dosed through PPS-Pro, I think that it would be quite a stretch to say that lack of phosphates caused the green spot algae. As far as high light, this is quite possible as the tank makes use of 3 Watts/gallon for a total of 30 watts and I can see intense light even with a split photoperiod contributing to the problem. As far as lack of C02, it may be possible as the tank does not have C02 injection. One thing is for sure, excessive phosphates and nitrates may not cause algae blooms other wise my tank would have had a huge algae bloom given the excessive nitrates and phosphates. However, keep in mind that I am running a UV sterilizer and this could be a mitigating factor by not allowing algae spores to survive and get a foothold. I would have to see the same result with the UV sterilizer turned off, but am too scared to try given the tank is doing so well.

What now? 
Well I could let this experience scare me and forget about it. 









However, my preference is to keep monitoring and see what else I discover on the way.








Plus, this is the first tank that I set up since taking up this hobby where I have seen such rapid plant growth, so it is not all bad. Besides, it is not like the algae took over the whole tank. We are only talking about a few leaves with green spot algae and these leaves can be pruned to get rid of the problem. There was only a smidgen of BGA and I doubt that it would have spread beyond the surface even if it was left alone. The problem wasn't so bad that it effected the tanks aesthetics. And I think at this point, it would be fair to say that algae won a couple of battles but not the war.

I still would like to experiment with the barley straw extract "when" I receive it. And I am considering removing the egera densa and replacing it with another fast growing stem plant as I would like to begin dosing with fluorish excel to provide the plants with a source of carbon and test as another algae preventative. Also, I would like to switch from split photoperiod to noonburst. One 15 watt tube would run the full 10 hours and the other one would come on after 5 hours, so both tubes would run 10 hours total. Finally, I may set up a DIY C02 injection for the tank. As always feedback/suggestions/recommendations are always welcome. I will post updates on my web page on an ongoing basis http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Your findings so far seem to add to one of my beliefs about planted tanks. Namely, that there is no 'iron bound' rule about anything.  'GSA is caused by low phosphates' - yet you're finding with relatively high PO4, you still get it. I have had the same experience. 'BBA is due to low or fluctuating CO2 levels' - from personal experience, I can say that, at least in my tanks, this is NOT true. With properly calibrated drop checker, I can vouch for the fact that with 30+ppm of CO2, I can still get some bba at times. 'BGA caused by low nitrates' - I haven't any experience with this one. The only time I had this was before my 'finding' how to grow plants, and I am sure my nutrients were wacko. 

So what exactly are you learning, you may wonder? At least you know how YOUR system reacts to YOUR parameters. IMO, there are definitely generalizations which can be made, and guidelines which can be followed. But in the end, one must adapt them to one's own individual tanks. And you've still to do the barley extract, so the jury remains out on that one.

Keep the updates coming. Thanks, Homer!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm leaning towards the belief that all of the "rules" about what causes a particular algae are only hints, and only apply when everything else in the tank is good. Most especially I think the definition of " no algae" is what you see when you do routine weekly maintenance, including wiping the glass thoroughly, vacuuming the substrate lightly, cleaning up all dead or unhealthy leaves, changing a big part of the water, and removing all of the tiny specks of just starting algae, such as BBA. Then, for the week before you do it all over again, you have "no algae".

But, if, while following that maintenance routine, you allow the CO2 to fluctuate too much from day to day, BBA takes off growing faster, and if you are short of phosphates, GSA gets a head start on the glass, etc. I think algae are just natural occupants of any container of water that sits around for a few days. So, this hobby may best suit those who really, really enjoy "working with" their tank.

In any case this experiment is interesting and should add to our knowledge.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback guys. Since the removal of the BGA, there has been no sign of BGA. And on second thought, I am beginning to wonder if it was BGA or protein film. It had a musty smell like BGA but looked more like a protein film. In hindsight, I should have taken some and thrown it in a test tube with Maracyn. If it turned white and died, I think this would have confirmed that it was BGA and not a protein film. If it was BGA, that would have been a real shocker as this is the first tank that I set up with a UV sterilizer where BGA materialized. There have been no visible signs of any more green spot algae, or BGA on any other leaves, not that I can see anyway.

And Hoppycalif, the tank is really in need of a good trim. Right now the stems are held in bunches and weighed down with lead weights. It seems really difficult to anchor the stems down if I begin seperating them, so I am waiting for delivery of these plant anchors that I ordered. http://www.aquariumplants.com/Professional_Plant_Anchors_on_sale_reg_2_29_p/pr1325.htm 
I want to discard the older stems given that there appears to be a lot of trapped debris(looks like mulm) between the leaf seperations on the stems and rescape with clean anchored stems.

The egera densa has really got out of control shooting stems all over the place and so has the Rotala Indica. The Cryptocorne Wendtii leaves still haven't all melted, but I am being careful not to prune too many of the melted ones as the Otos seem to be feeding off the melting leaves and appear to have developed an appetite for them. The Cryptocorne is also beginning to sprout new leaves eventhough all the old leaves have not all melted. And the biggest surprised of all is how well the Madagascar Lace Plant is doing. It seems to be sprouting a new leaf almost every 3rd day and that is without c02 or excel, and the minimum light that it receives given that the floating stems are blocking most of the light hitting it. Lol, must be Edward's PPS-Pro. The literature makes reference to how difficult it is to grow Madagascar Lace Plant and one that should be avoided by beginners. . The only plants that don't appear to be doing all that great are the Java moss. It continues to have a dull green color instead of the lush green color seen in more healthy Java moss. The Cryptocoryne willisii is also doing crap*y. It has not sprouted any new leaves and was one of the first along with the Anubias to display what looked like potassium deficiency symptoms. Also, the ludwiga repens "Rubin", Hyrophilia Polysperma and Compact, and the money wort are not exhibiting new growth but are not dieing either(perhaps they are still acclimitizing to the new water conditions). They came from a very high light environment where the store was lighting the tank with a ton of MH lights. Since dosing with extra potassium and adding calcium sulphate as per Edward's recommendation with every water change, I am no longer noticing yellowing of leaves and it appears to have made a huge difference in the growth of the cardamine, which appears to be sprouting new leaves that are growing larger in size.

I lost the sole neon tetra I had and I had a feeling it was a goner. It was exhibiting symptoms of oxygen deficiency as it kept coming to the surface and looked like it was trying to get air. The ammonia and nitrite tested zero at the time, there was no dramatic change in PH, there was more than enough surface agitation to oxygenate the water, and I would be hard pressed to believe that it succumbed to a parasitic attack considering I am running a UV sterilizer 24/7. The rest of the fish are still alive and kicking and appear healthy, including the highly sensitive ram and otos.

Once I rescape, I really need to make some decisions and shift gears. Perhaps introduce DIY C02 injection and or Excel and switch to noonburst photoperiod from split photoperiod. The barley straw extract will be dosed for sure.

And I really need to get a camera so I can start posting pictures. Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

Regards


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Algae happens.
Interesting topic but I think maybe the strategy to combat algae should be altered to a strategy to optimize plant growth. The algae will be taken care of by themselves.

Your parameters sounds like good parameters for good plant growth and there always will be algae. It's natural.


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

Congratulations on your endeavor! You're a brave man for conducting this experiment and for putting a tiger lotus in a 10 gallon tank. 



Homer_Simpson said:


> The plant Egera Densa is known to naturally secret an antibiotic substance known to prevent the formation of blue green algae. Hence, the tank has 3 huge stalks of Egera Densa for this purpose.


You can't really test this while doing two 50% water changes per week. I know you have to because of the fish load but I just thought I'd point that out. I'm not saying that it works or doesn't work, just that we can't know from this.

I just gathered some yesterday that were growing wild in a stand by themselves. They had no algae on them whatsoever but the strap-leaf sagittaria, from the same creek, were covered with it. My Endler's and mollies had a field day when I planted them. :hungry:


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Endler Guy said:


> Congratulations on your endeavor! You're a brave man for conducting this experiment and for putting a tiger lotus in a 10 gallon tank.


Thanks, it has been quite interesting. I pretty much removed the tiger lotuses, except one. I could have left them in there and kept trimming them, but I was too lazy, so I stuck them in my 40 gallon where they are doing excellent despite no c02 injection. I also had to remove many newly grown rotala indica stems and place them in my 40 gallon as the rotala indica had grown so quickly that they were overtaking the surface of the tank. I replaced the tiger lotuses with ludwiga repens "rubin", which lost all its leaves and I don't know if it will recover, Hygrophilia polysperma which is showing some new growth but slowly, money wort which is at a standstill(not dieing but not growing) and Hygrophilia compact which is also at a standstill(not dieing but not growing).



Endler Guy said:


> You can't really test this while doing two 50% water changes per week. I know you have to because of the fish load but I just thought I'd point that out. I'm not saying that it works or doesn't work, just that we can't know from this.


You are absolutely right. But regardless of this, the Egera Densa could not stop the emergence of BGA eventhough it was growing like a weed. I still ended up with some and that was doing 2 50% weekly water changes. So for the purposes of this experiment, I can say that the egera densa was unable to stop the formation of Blue Green Algae. The BGA was a such a small amount and did not spread to the rest of the tank but it still appeared nevertheless.

I am in the process of setting up DIY C02 injection. I am going to test with champagne yeast instead of regular baking yeast. Also, as per Tom Barr's excellent recommendation, I am going to change the brew each week in an attempt to keep the C02 production more consistent. I was going to make a feeble attempt to build a co2 reactor, similiar to the Tom Barr one, using a gravel vac, power head, sponge and some bioballs. But I just could not get myself to spend any more money on additional parts after sinking a fortune into this hobby and did not want to have some bulky eyesore in my tank, so I decided I will create a intake hole under the casing of my existing Hagen Elite Mini submersible filter, remove all media, and let the impeller chop up the bubbles. I know that this is not good for the impeller and may shorten the life of the filter, but it will have to do for now. I opted to test c02 instead of excel as an algae preventative, only because the egera densa is doing so well and I did not want to kill it using excel. Also, C02 injection is cheaper than overdosing with excel.

I ran into some problems. The barley straw extract never did arrive. The E-Bay seller told me that there was a shipping screw-up, apologized, and sent me a second order which was suppose to arrive this week. It never did. Also, I switched from split photo-period lighting for 10 hours to noon-burst photo-period for 10 hours just for comparison purposes. The second timer I used was defective so the lights did not turn off after 10 hours. The tank ended up getting a 12+hours of light for a couple of days and thankfully algae did not take advantage of the situation. Don't you just love it when things go wrong back to back :doh:

On a more positive note, the tank is still doing relatively well, growth is still crazy fast and no algae on the glass. I did rescape but being an inexperienced newbie pruner, I ended up doing a hack job. Water is still crystal clear.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Sept 11 2007 update: Did a major(I would call it a newbie hack job) trimming of the tank and added DIY C02 using modified Hagen Elite Mini underwater filter to act as diffuser/reactor. Some may question if introduction of DIY C02 does not go against the grain of this experiment. I said that this was a work in progress. It has already been established that the measures implemented in of themselves cannot keep green spot and Blue Green Alagae at bay. C02 injection is touted as a major weapon against algae formation and a strong preventative, so long as c02 injection is consistent, so I see no problem(s) in introducing yet another anti-algae measure to the mix. Thus, my attempts to take measures(i.e., use of champagne yeast, yeast nutrient, etc.,) with the fermentation mix to promote c02 consistency.

Here is a picture of the lost world. The pictures taken prior to the trim did not turn out that good, largely owing to my poor picture taking skills and incompetent use of the camera. This is the best picture taken after the trim. Sorry, taking pictures is not my strong point. And yes, I know, the tank is in need of a major rescape, but this is an experiment in algae prevention and not aquascaping, so please hold off on your scathing scape comments/criticisms. Once the experiment is over and some level of satisfactory balance is achieved, I will rescape the tank.










*Click Here For A Little SlideShow Of the LostWorld.*


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Latest update posted here: 
http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

BGA became an issue but there is virtually no other algae that formed. No more green spot, no green dust, no staghorn, no thread algae, no string algae, no blackbrush algae, and no blackbeard algae. Personally for me that is significant, as this is the first tank I set up that did not develop green dust algae three months within being set up. And if you think about it, Blue Green Algae does not really count since it is really cynobacteria and not algae.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Sounds great! Now the trick will be in seeing whether or not these same conditions which have yielded positive results for you, can be replicated on the next tank you set up.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Bert H said:


> Sounds great! Now the trick will be in seeing whether or not these same conditions which have yielded positive results for you, can be replicated on the next tank you set up.


Lol, thanks, but I am going to shift gears and experiment with low tech on a 5 gallon that I will be setting it up as per Tom Barr's recommendations posted here:
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

This new project will be coined "my anti-algae repulsion tank - the sequel" 

The only difference is that I will not be using Onyx sand but will go with Tahitian Moon Sand. I am just awaiting delivery of the Leonardite to layer on the bottom. As per Tom Barr's instructions, I will also have a layer of peat and mulm(from my 40 gallon tank biowheels). 
The plants will be:
Sagittaria subulata as a filler
java ferns
Wendtii, Red (Cryptocoryne wendtii)
Nana (Anubias barteri v. 'Nana')
perhaps, java moss(but not sure as I seem to be having difficulty keeping this one alive)

The Fish:
Rosy Barb
1-2 otos
Black molly
Some Amano Shrimp if I can find some locally

No C02 injection, but I may use excel to provide the plants a carbon source. Light will be be about 30watts compact fluorescent daylight 6500 set on split photoperiod of 7 hours total. I will still be using a Seachem Purigan insert, a UV sterilizer, and will dose with barley straw extract. The water changes will be far and in between(1-2 months depending on how dirty the water gets) or very small weekly water changes 8-10 % week max. Fert dosing will be minimal, perhaps once a week and I will adjust the amount or frequency based on any plant deficiency symptoms that I notice.

I am curious to see if Blue Green Algae invades this tank and how this 5 gallon fares with respect to algae in general compared to the anti-algae repulsion tank that I set up.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Interesting thread - it tackles a topic that has been discussed a million times and I thought noone was interested to conduct experiments any more to try to find an solution.

Keep up the work, but if you draw any conclusions please, PLEASE, test the results in more than one tank. If this barley straw seems to work, or if something else seems to work, I personally would not take it too seriously if it works in a single tank. If you can find things that work over and over and over again then you will be on to something.

--Nikolay


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Even if one of us who finds a technique that works for us, but can't repeat it, reporting it here lets others try it to test it further.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> Even if one of us who finds a technique that works for us, but can't repeat it, reporting it here lets others try it to test it further.


*THANK YOU* Hoppy

I was not in any way suggesting that what I found was a permanent solution to algae problems. Out of curiosity and in the hopes of learning something new I decided to run an experiment. I shared what I found with others in the hopes tha some of what I did or found could help others, although there were no guarantees to that effect. The fact that Blue Green Algae reared its ugly head despite high nitrates(tested with a calibrated test kit) and attempts to maintain good water quality, not to mention increased nitrate dosing, and the fact that my moneywort, ludwiga repens rubin, and rotala indica did very poorly(despite switching to EI from PPS-Pro) would even suggest that the experiment was not a total success.

For me having a successful planted tank means having little or no algae and good overall plant growth. Obviously, I failed with respect to having all my plants remain healthy and fluorish
  Only the Egera Densa and Cardamine continued to show explosive growth and we all know that Egera Densa is one of those plants that grows like a weed anyway and does not require special conditions to fluorish.

If this post is not welcomed because it doesn't represent replicated results, I apologize for posting. In the future I will only log my findings on my website and mods are free to delete this post if you want. As far as replicating results, given the costs involved this is next to impossible. Everytime I try something different, there is a cost involved and I have already sunk a fortune into this hobby, so can only afford to run isolated experiments here and there as my finances allow.

Regards and sorry if I offended anyone.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Keep posting Homer. I agree with Hoppy, every bit of info is something for others to try. Just because it hasn't been replicated doesn't mean it's worthless, just that it may not work for everyone. To be fair I don't think Niko was trying to be negative, just saying that one good result doesn't make it the answer - something you basically said in your last post too.

I'm curious to see if the Barley straw will give results. While I was at Uni the biology department tested bales of barley straw in the liner lake at York and they seemed to thing that it worked, but they could never isolate why! It also didn't seem to work well every year or with tiny amounts of straw and this was a repeated experiment (I know because they got the first year students to repeat the experiment when I was there!!!). I don't know if they still use it or not.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Homer_Simpson said:


> *THANK YOU* Hoppy
> 
> I was not in any way suggesting that what I found was a permanent solution to algae problems. Out of curiosity and in the hopes of learning something new I decided to run an experiment. I shared what I found with others in the hopes tha some of what I did or found could help others, although there were no guarantees to that effect. The fact that Blue Green Algae reared its ugly head despite high nitrates(tested with a calibrated test kit) and attempts to maintain good water quality, not to mention increased nitrate dosing, and the fact that my moneywort, ludwiga repens rubin, and rotala indica did very poorly(despite switching to EI from PPS-Pro) would even suggest that the experiment was not a total success.
> 
> ...


Homer, I don't think you've offended anybody. I appreciate your willingness to test out variables and letting us know what you find out. :thumbsup: I don't think anyone feels things must be 'proven' via scientific methodology in order to have value.


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