# German Blue Ram Help :(



## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Hey guys, I've been trying to keep german blue rams. I bought two just Friday. Today one of them died. I know GBR are very sensitive to water parameters but I don't know what I can do to keep the water idea for them. :\ I'm really sad that one of them had to die because they are absolutely beautiful. Can anyone please provide me with some desperate help on anything I can at all? Any help will be greatly appreciated. I want to be able to finally feel comfortable in buying another female because that was the one that I lost. I don't want to yet until I feel comfortable that I can keep them because they are pretty expensive.


Thanks in advance!


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

With out knowing what your water is like, where they came from and etc. the best thing I can tell you to do is do WC every few days.


it may not be your fualt, there have been lots of "weak" GBRs coming into the hobby as of late.


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

I got those guys from a pretty reputable store. I got them from houston tx fish gallery. I'm not sure if they care too much for their fish however cause they seemed to be overpopulating their holding tanks but the store is nice.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I could rant all day about high mortality rate from even the most reputable store keepers, the antibiotic baths they grow rams in using cheap labor, the fact that they feed cayan chilli powder to color them because spirulina is, "too expensive" and the questionable wholesalers that bring them in. I'll save you a few paragraphs of ranting though, and just tell you to buy local GBR's that prefferably have some basis in a wild strain. You'll find many popular apisto varieties are stronger fish than the overly inbred rams.

For now, get to know your water if you haven't. Get a water quality report, find out what your tap pours out for pH/KH. After that, figure out how you're going to keep the fish you want, then find a decent source for it.

-Philosophos


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

Philosophos said:


> I could rant all day about high mortality rate from even the most reputable store keepers, the antibiotic baths they grow rams in using cheap labor, the fact that they feed cayan chilli powder to color them because spirulina is, "too expensive" and the questionable wholesalers that bring them in. I'll save you a few paragraphs of ranting though, and just tell you to buy local GBR's that prefferably have some basis in a wild strain. You'll find many popular apisto varieties are stronger fish than the overly inbred rams.
> 
> For now, get to know your water if you haven't. Get a water quality report, find out what your tap pours out for pH/KH. After that, figure out how you're going to keep the fish you want, then find a decent source for it.
> 
> -Philosophos


This is great advice. The rams you see in stores are usually "altered" in some way to make them more popular and sellable. If you aren't sure about the amount of wild in the fish, ask. Try to get as close to wild as possible, or a few years out (called F-1, F-2 generations). I've never had a hard time keeping rams, but I know there are some horrid strains out there NOT to buy.

Wild fish can be sensitive too, but you'll be much happier if you are successful with them. Good luck!


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you guys for all of your input. I really appreciate it. As an update, however, I found the other ram dead this morning when I checked.  So now I am left with an empty tank again. Do you guys know any reputable sellers? Would I have a better chance buying them online from a good website? I saw some on this website: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=830+889+1084&pcatid=1084 don't know how they are yet. Does anyone have any experience with buying good GBR somewhere online or a breeder I could contact?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

liveaquaria.com is an extension of Foster and Smith, which is no doubt a reputable company. You'll pay twice as much for their fish, but I've not heard complaints from anyone who has ordered from them.

I haven't bothered with getting decent rams in a while. The last thing I did was give gold rams a try; they were just as unstable, perhaps more so. If nobody here can help you, I'm sure there are a number of individuals who can on cichlid dedicated forums.

-Philosophos


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> liveaquaria.com is an extension of Foster and Smith, which is no doubt a reputable company. You'll pay twice as much for their fish, but I've not heard complaints from anyone who has ordered from them.
> 
> I haven't bothered with getting decent rams in a while. The last thing I did was give gold rams a try; they were just as unstable, perhaps more so. If nobody here can help you, I'm sure there are a number of individuals who can on cichlid dedicated forums.
> 
> -Philosophos


Have you tried purchasing fish from there yourself? How were the gold rams unstable?

I really don't mind paying extra as long as they don't end up dying and having my money wasted just like when I got mine from fish gallery. With the money I wasted, I could pay for the shipping on liveaquaria


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

I've heard that blue ram 06 on aquabid breeds great rams. I have no personal exp with him, but I've heard several people rave about him on diffrent fish sites

this thread has some other links as well
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-planted-aquarium/65122-best-rams-online.html


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you for the help TAB! I really appreciate any input at all. I was looking on liveaquaria and the shipping rates plus the fish were... YIKES! O_O But by ALL means, I would rather spend extra to get fish that'll last then keep wasting money on dead ones.


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

but I wasn't able to find the blue ram 06 guy.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?justdisp&Blueram06

no spaces


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

blech on liveaquaria. That place breeds misinformation. I would never buy fish from there on that principle alone. They low-ball max sizes of marine fish to sell more of them to aquarists and they pad their reputation with only the happy customers. 

Frankly, I'd figure out a local breeder for rams and buy from them. Do you have a fish club around you? I'd try that 1st then move on to aquabid. If you're buying online, make sure you get a pic of the fish you're buying. Live Aquaria simply posts what the species looks like- who knows what quality you'll get. Many people on Aquabid do that to, so just make sure you're an informed buyer.

GL!


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

The gold rams I've bought and watch die in fish stores went down to all kinds of ich and internal/external infections. Both of the ones I bought died from something odd; perfectly little red spots formed on the fish, and were flush with the body. I believe it was protozoan parasites, perhaps something related to cold transport. Either way medication didn't do anything.

Give the aquabid breeder a try if they've got a reputation for good rams. If they're a breeder and not simply a middle man, you've got good odds on a stable fish.

-Philosophos


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you all for your information and inputs. Each post really helps gives me a little more insight on my issue.

I was still annoyed, however. I was just soo angry that the fish died and I felt really guilty. I went to petsmart the day after they died. Purchased the API complete test kit. I tested my water parameters. my pH was 7.4, my ammonia level was 0 ppm, my nitrite level was 0 ppm, my nitrate level was 10 ppm (but levels under 40 ppm are okay). This was all before I had even changed my water.

Even though I felt a bit better after measuring it, I was still left without a source to buy a good pair of GBR. So thank you guys for giving me all these sources. I am just frustrated as to why some fish stores will do this to people and their fish. It's disappointing.



Six said:


> blech on liveaquaria. That place breeds misinformation. I would never buy fish from there on that principle alone. They low-ball max sizes of marine fish to sell more of them to aquarists and they pad their reputation with only the happy customers.
> 
> Frankly, I'd figure out a local breeder for rams and buy from them. Do you have a fish club around you? I'd try that 1st then move on to aquabid. If you're buying online, make sure you get a pic of the fish you're buying. Live Aquaria simply posts what the species looks like- who knows what quality you'll get. Many people on Aquabid do that to, so just make sure you're an informed buyer.
> 
> GL!


I will definitely take your advice and buy from aquabid since I am not sure of the clubs in my area. Thank you Six! I am curious though. Did you ever buy from liveaquaria and have a bad experience?



TAB said:


> http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?justdisp&Blueram06
> 
> no spaces


Thank you TAB! I looked into the breeder and wow I was amazed! I bookmarked it too! Thank you for this great find!


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

I used to work for a LFS who was put out of business because people would come in ask for information about a fish and buy it from them instead. I was put off by the company because of that initially. Then after looking at their stock, it was annoying not to SEE what fish I was buying. Sure, they warrenty the fish for god knows how long, but IMO that's not really a good indicator of getting good fish.
I guess once you've been in the hobby a while and know people breeding and trying to inform others without just "click and ship" consumerism, you get a little miffed at places like Dr Foster's.

But no, I have never bought anything from them and never plan to. LOL.

As for your fish, don't feel too bad about it. It happens. You're doing the best you can do with the resources you have and thats more than many people do. Petsmart and Petco are starting blocks for the hobby. That's what they cater to. They can get you a tank and the starting needs, but rare or delicate fish are not their forte. You're just a fast learner- soon enough you'll be searching for fish only shops and driving hours to get there or an auction.


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Six, I admire you.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

About 2 years ago, I was determined to keep GBR. I had a well established, heavily planted tank. I had kept many fish (delicate and not) in the same tank with no problems. I adjusted my water with RO water and tap water to get the KH and GH to the levels of the rams natural habitat. I adjusted the pH with my pH regulator and CO2. I had tons of testing equipment and could find nothing out of sorts.

I bought GBR's from good and not so good fish stores with no success. I was lucky to keep the rams alive for a week. I bought ram after ram with no success. Finally I got a larger male that lasted for a while. His color was never very good and he only lived for about 4 months. I did alot of reading (books and internet) talked to alot of people and have come to one conclusion. I would only try rams again if they were locally bred. The mass bred and imported rams are weak, be it from hormones, feeding, change in water chemistry. Find a local breeder or local fish club. These breeders are more likely to be like you. I haven't met a local breeder who is injecting hormones or feeding inappropriate food. Most of these people are caring fish owners who are babying these fish to try to promote breeding, and painstakingly raising the fry. I now get all my sensitive fish (I like dwarf cichlids) from individuals at clubs or auctions. I will also buy such fish from my LFS if they are from local breeders (ask where they got the fish). With this strategy I have had great success. I would also consider buying online from breeders (check their feedback), but the shipping costs on top of the fish cost has kept me from doing so. I did buy some apistos and pelvicachromis taeniatus from 2 non-local breeders at the American Cichlid Association meeting this year that have done well.

BTW, I got some apisto borrelli after I gave up on the GBR's and they did great in that same 29 gallon tank.

Good luck,


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you geeks! You're experiences have made me a bit more confident with my decision to purchase online from a local breeder. TAB suggested them to me and I checked out their profile. Amazing feedback and their fish look beautiful. If anyone else has any experience with these people. Please let me know!

I don't know if there's a club around me who is trading and offering GBR however so I will have to find out.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Six said:


> Petsmart and Petco are starting blocks for the hobby. That's what they cater to.


I'm fine with people criticizing not seeing what you're buying with liveaquaria. The same happens on aquabid all the time though, even from great breeders, and people buy the fish anyhow. Some of them are even rather anal about their return policies.

What I don't get is making this criticism, and then mentioning those two chains without contempt. I've seen enough tanks full of diseased and dieing fish that I won't buy stock from either one. The average employee there, when they care enough to help, seem to give out more bad information than good. I wouldn't point a new hobbyist in the direction of those stores unless they were the last option besides perhaps walmart.

-Philosophos


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## wi_blue (Apr 5, 2005)

I have had problems keeping GBR in the past. IMO it is more a problem with fluctuating water parameters, not specifically in our tanks but from tank to tank. I had my best run with a pair of GBRs that were bred in a local tank and use to the water in the area I was living in at the time.

I lost them a couple of months after moving to a new town with slightly different GH/PH from tap.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

DUHK said:


> I tested my water parameters. my pH was 7.4


I would try to reduce pH to around 6.5.


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

I was able to get in touch with a local breeder who has raised their GBR in pH around neutral and that's how my tank is. I guess this disappointing story has taken a turn for the better  Thank you guys though. This really wouldn't have been possible without all of your input.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

Not to complicate things, but you should also consider the gH and kH or your water compared to the breeder's water. If you have hard water and the fish were raised in very soft water (very possible since they come from very soft water habitats in nature) you may have problems. Use a good acclimation process to gradually introduce the fish to your water.

I've heard of rams that are raised in soft and hard water. Your best chance of success will be with rams raised in the type of water you plan to keep them in.

That said, a good, well bred, and well raised specimen will have a better chance no matter the water chemistry.

Good luck. And if you find a good breeder let us know. Finding a good resource for dwarf cichlids is valuable.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

DUHK said:


> I was able to get in touch with a local breeder who has raised their GBR in pH around neutral and that's how my tank is.


That is very good news. If the breeder thinks that your water has the right parameters, go for it!


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

Philosophos said:


> I'm fine with people criticizing not seeing what you're buying with liveaquaria. The same happens on aquabid all the time though, even from great breeders, and people buy the fish anyhow. Some of them are even rather anal about their return policies.
> 
> What I don't get is making this criticism, and then mentioning those two chains without contempt. I've seen enough tanks full of diseased and dieing fish that I won't buy stock from either one. The average employee there, when they care enough to help, seem to give out more bad information than good. I wouldn't point a new hobbyist in the direction of those stores unless they were the last option besides perhaps walmart.
> 
> -Philosophos


Oh no, I didn't recommend PetCo or Petsmart as a whole, but there are jems out there. To treat them and their employees like trash because of a generalization is horrible. I started out the hobby working at a fish store and going to school. I was treated like crap repetitively because I was "just a retail employee" not to mention a girl in a fish store. Sure, if you dont like the company, fine don't shop there. But generalizing all store employees as lesser in knowledge is harsh and unfair.

Also, I agree that some people on aquabid do not sell fish that are WYSIWYG... but the good ones do. And sure, you don't know if the fish is healthy or not, but that's what feedback is for. I've never had anyone send me sick fish. Deformed fish, yes, and search "six" and "rainbowfish" too see where that gets sellers like that.

My city is HUGE and we have 1 LFS. 1 locally owned fish store that has more than a basement full of fish. That's it. I would love to point people there all day, but they're expensive for what they offer and have more issues with disease than the Petsmart across the street from me. Go where you can and be a good buyer. I've bought fish from chain stores with no poblems although the quality of my local club is 100 fold.

You have to start somewhere, whether your an employee learning or a buyer trying to find fish. I don't like chain fish stores either, but for the hobby to keep membership we have to have a starting place for newbs.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

> Oh no, I didn't recommend PetCo or Petsmart as a whole, but there are jems out there. To treat them and their employees like trash because of a generalization is horrible. I started out the hobby working at a fish store and going to school. I was treated like crap repetitively because I was "just a retail employee" not to mention a girl in a fish store. Sure, if you dont like the company, fine don't shop there. But generalizing all store employees as lesser in knowledge is harsh and unfair.


I've gotten the odd decent employee in chain stores; they've universally been frustrated by being forced to keep fish using outdated or nasty conditions. It's also a very rare occurrence.

I don't believe in treating retail employees poorly unless they're treating their customers poorly. "yes you can keep that balla shark in your 10 gal with your guppies" is a line I've heard enough times to give me a nervous tick.

Basically I expect the average employee to know their product and the methods for keeping it functioning. Being new to something when you're hired happens, and there should definitely be some leeway, but it should be the exception rather than the average customer experience IMO.



Six said:


> Also, I agree that some people on aquabid do not sell fish that are WYSIWYG... but the good ones do. And sure, you don't know if the fish is healthy or not, but that's what feedback is for. I've never had anyone send me sick fish. Deformed fish, yes, and search "six" and "rainbowfish" too see where that gets sellers like that.


Some of the best shrimp and apisto sellers on that site only leave pictures of some of their general stock. I think it'd be nice of them and better customer service to take individual pictures, but it doesn't mean you aren't getting a high quality product.

I know the seller you're speaking of. Stock images like that and their feedback has always kept me away from them. That and the price; I can pick those up locally for around half what they're charging.



Six said:


> My city is HUGE and we have 1 LFS. 1 locally owned fish store that has more than a basement full of fish. That's it. I would love to point people there all day, but they're expensive for what they offer and have more issues with disease than the Petsmart across the street from me. Go where you can and be a good buyer. I've bought fish from chain stores with no poblems although the quality of my local club is 100 fold.


Those situations are definitely hard. I'm left with no club, tons of chains with tons of sick and dead fish, and one very good quality LFS that's improving its plants and planted tank related stock quite well.



> You have to start somewhere, whether your an employee learning or a buyer trying to find fish. I don't like chain fish stores either, but for the hobby to keep membership we have to have a starting place for newbs.


I agree completely, I've just been disappointed by that starting point since the day I started in the hobby. Both in Canada and the US it's an issue that could easily be resolved, and I blame it on the higher ups in these companies who are interested in profit margins rather than quality. I wish some of these stores would eliminate their stock and stick with hardware. Perhaps it would give local businesses, who are willing to provide quality, a far better chance. A good fish for 50% more is better than two from a bad supplier IMO.

-Philosophos


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm really happy to be a part of this discussion. I hope that someone who is struggling with their fish, the source of where they got it, and trying to get a hold of some great information can find this thread and learn as much from it as I have from you guys! Thank you all!

That being said, how do I determine the gH and kH of my water? Do I have to buy any expensive test kits? Also, what is WYSIWYG?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

GH and KH can be figured out through test kits; hobby ones will work well enough for most. Calibration is strongly recommended when possible. I'm a little shot in the brain for caculation right now, so I'll use KH numbers from: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hardness-larryfrank.html which I've checked in the past.

30 mg/L of baking soda will get you 1 KH, 17.86ppm CaCO3 will get you 1 GH if you can get it dissolved. Personally I'd use some K+ based fertilizer, for which I can do the numbers tomorrow if you like. While your sitting there, mixing solutions, you might as well test a couple values just to be sure.

WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get.

-Philosophos


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Water hardness test kits are pretty cheap.( should be less then $10 for both)  you can also contact your local water distric(assuming your not on a private well) and they can tell you what the KH/GH is.

WYSIWYG

What
You
See
Is
What
You 
Get


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Wow, a more complex aspect into fish keeping. Very interesting. I have kept other fish in the past and they have all lived well. There could be a chance that my water hardness or softness is different from where they came from. Would that have caused stress the fish a whole lot?


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

if it was a dreastic change, it could. 

having worked for fish breaders, I can tell you most fish are bread in tap water. I mean every thing from that $.39 feeder guppys to some of the most expensive discus. Stability is the key.

when I say breaders, I mean for the most part, hobbyest that had thier hobby turned into a biz. Not large sacle comm'l operations that are closer to puppy mills then anything else.

As was mentioned in this thread, some of thier pratices will make you sick.


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

TAB said:


> if it was a dreastic change, it could.
> 
> having worked for fish breaders, I can tell you most fish are bread in tap water. I mean every thing from that $.39 feeder guppys to some of the most expensive discus. Stability is the key.
> 
> ...


That is the exact thing I was thinking. Large chain fish stores are the equivalent of puppy mills.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

TAB said:


> if it was a dreastic change, it could.
> 
> having worked for fish breaders, I can tell you most fish are bread in tap water. I mean every thing from that $.39 feeder guppys to some of the most expensive discus. Stability is the key.
> 
> ...


Did they manage to do apistos that way? I mean in most places the water is so hard that even if you get apistos to spawn, they still have egg viability issues. It'd be nice if there were a way around the pH/KH tinkering.

-Philosophos


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

Hey guys, I was browsing the local fish stores in my area. It doesn't seem like one of those large company run stores. I asked them and they just got the GBR for about a week now. Do you guys think I should go ahead and buy? I didn't see any dead fish but a couple of them had ich. Any suggestions?


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## wi_blue (Apr 5, 2005)

Don't buy from tanks with disease , expecially sensitive fish. IMO...I would only purchase GBRs for a LFS if they have had them for at least 1 week and they were showing great color/makings with no sign of disease in any fish in the tank.


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## DUHK (Aug 6, 2009)

wi_blue said:


> Don't buy from tanks with disease , expecially sensitive fish. IMO...I would only purchase GBRs for a LFS if they have had them for at least 1 week and they were showing great color/makings with no sign of disease in any fish in the tank.


Okay  Good idea. They said they have been in there for about a week now, a couple of them had ich. It was about a 10-20 gallon tank, with about.. I would say, 20 GBR's. I'll check back on them next week to see how it goes.

Oh yeah, to update. I went back a week later to the place I had gotten the previous GBR which died. I saw that their tank was completely empty. All of the fish had died.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

Though hard to maintain, patience is one of the best virtues of a fish keeper. Wait for the right blue rams to come along.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Return the fish back to the store.
Most stores have a 24-72 hour policy when you buy fish.
Bring a water sample.


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

geeks_15 said:


> Though hard to maintain, patience is one of the best virtues of a fish keeper. Wait for the right blue rams to come along.


:amen:
Top-Notch advice!

DITTO: Never purchase fish that are obviously sick!!! Any reputable dealer will QT these fish in a separate tank w/ a notice: "Not for Sale / Undergoing treatment."

I've learned far too many of my lessons in good fish keeping the hard way! Meaning, extra anxiety and losses, and lots of money down the loo! Included in this are two years of purchasing mass produced dwarf cichlids at local stores only to watch them quickly - or slowly - decline and loose them. (In my own defense, I didn't even know to ask about where the fish came from - or how they were breed/shipped/QT'd. -There is SO much to learn!!!) Joining a local fish club, and lots of reading on great forums, has helped me to make wiser, informed, decisions.

Some fish are tough as nails and it doesn't matter if they are mass produced in large scale factory farms, and you purchase them from big box stores. Other fish _really_ are more delicate. Obtaining top quality stock from a dedicated hobbiest breeder will make a world of difference. You will most probably pay extra money to get good fish. However, when I add up all the money thrown away to fish dying quickly. As they say: It's a no-brainer! The extra cost is more than worth it.

Six has mentioned: http://www.theamazonbasement.com/index.html, in a previous thread. I've also been very happy w/ my purchases from Bev and Dale @ The Amazon Basement. Every fish that I purchased from them have done great! (GBR, _Nanochromis_, _Apistogrammas_, and _Dicrossus_. - Just to name a few.)

Also, checking your GH/KH is important for most dwarf cichlids. Although some will tolerate medium hard water and neutral pH. Most do much better in softer water. GBR also fare better in water that is warm. I keep mine at 80F. Many of my other dwarfs are I keep between 74 - 78F. (Depending on the season of the year, and if I am attempting to provide for spawning and growing up any fry.)


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## DavidZ (Jan 22, 2009)

try http://www.amazontropicalsonline.com/services.html

and

http://www.anchorbayaquarium.com/fresh.html

also

http://www.oddballpets.com/


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