# Is this a good CO2 setup ?



## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi
have 120 going to plumb the line into my canister filter.I was looking at this CO2 unit.I have CO2 tank already.Is there anything else I would need ? Is this one ok ?

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9935&pcatid=9935


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi jasonak,

It appears to be an Azoo regulator, which is very inexpensive and does not have adjustable output pressure. You can find these on Ebay for less than $65 all day long. However I would keep looking.

If you do a search on this sub-forum you will find several good threads that will help you find a reliable, rock solid, stable output system.


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## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi
Thanks for taking the time to reply,I dont knwo squat about CO2 so its a little confusing for me.Ill do a search and see what I come up with.Im sjut leary of trying to build my own CO2 setup.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

It is quite easy to build a regulator assembly for our CO2 use. Below is an early DIY by Rex Grigg that shows how. It is what I went by to build my first one. You can see that it is very simple. (Do note that the Clippard needle valve and the Clippard low pressure regulator aren't used very much any more. Ideal/Swagelok/Nupro/Parker needle/metering valves are used now.)
http://www.rexgrigg.com/regulator.htm


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## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks guys Ill do a little more searching and see what I can find.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

You have a 120g. If I were you, I would get a good CO2 system for it. 

Many people make a mistake and buy systems with "brand names." Then they find out that it is not all that they thought it was and have to buy something different ... costing them more money in the long run.

You are doing the right thing by researching it more. Do ask questions if you aren't familiar with a product or a term or whatever. 

My suggestions would be to build your own using quality components or purchase one already made by Green Leaf Aquariums, SuMo or Rex Grigg that use great parts. I like the first option the best. I would stay away from the Red Sea, Azoo, JBJ, Milwaukee, AquaTek, 3M, etc brands of regulators. If you do get one, plan on getting a good needle valve. The stock ones are quite shotty.

You can save more money by not getting a pH controller. A simple timer with known dKH drop check(s) are all that are needed. But, being new to pressurized CO2, a pH controller does have a "comfort factor."


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## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

Hey Left C, I've been considering getting another regulator and I was curious where I could find a cheap victor dual stage regulator and solenoid. You seem to be well versed in this area, haha. I do have an extra fabco inline NV from my rex grigg set up.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

gotcheaprice said:


> Hey Left C, I've been considering getting another regulator and I was curious where I could find a cheap victor dual stage regulator and solenoid. You seem to be well versed in this area, haha. I do have an extra fabco inline NV from my rex grigg set up.


I just posted some info about a few that are going to be for sale. It is at BarrReport.com in the "Trades, swaps, sales" section.

I haven't looked around in a few weeks. Later on tonight, I'll check out ebay and post what I find on regulators. I can't help you with the solenoids unless you want a Burkert 6011 solenoid with Buna-N seals. My regulator findings will be posted in the "Dual Stage Regulators" section at BarrReport.com too. We can post ebay links there. Some forums do not permit ebay links.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Left C said:


> I just posted some info about a few that are going to be for sale. It is at BarrReport.com in the "Trades, swaps, sales" section.
> 
> I haven't looked around in a few weeks. Later on tonight, I'll check out ebay and post what I find on regulators. I can't help you with the solenoids unless you want a Burkert 6011 solenoid with Buna-N seals. My regulator findings will be posted in the "Dual Stage Regulators" section at BarrReport.com too. We can post ebay links there. Some forums do not permit ebay links.


I saw that and my hands are itching, ha ha. Let's see how I feel tomorrow.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Darn, I did not wait until morning and I sent him an e-mail. Man, you are bad influence Left C. 

Btw, why are they are getting scarce? Are they that good Left C ?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I just finished posting the list.


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## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

Left C said:


> I just posted some info about a few that are going to be for sale. It is at BarrReport.com in the "Trades, swaps, sales" section.
> 
> I haven't looked around in a few weeks. Later on tonight, I'll check out ebay and post what I find on regulators. I can't help you with the solenoids unless you want a Burkert 6011 solenoid with Buna-N seals. My regulator findings will be posted in the "Dual Stage Regulators" section at BarrReport.com too. We can post ebay links there. Some forums do not permit ebay links.


Ah, found it. Asked you a question there, thanks so much!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

barbarossa4122 said:


> Darn, I did not wait until morning and I sent him an e-mail. Man, you are bad influence Left C.
> 
> Btw, why are they are getting scarce? Are they that good Left C ?


I accidentally posted that list before I was finished. I'm done with it now.

There are plenty that will work fine, but my favorite models are scarce.

The ones that Anwar will have are nice. He is a Victor tech by trade.


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## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi thanks for your replys
so what about this regulator

http://cgi.ebay.com/Premium-Double-...983?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255ccd4b4f


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jasonak said:


> Hi thanks for your replys
> so what about this regulator
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Premium-Double-...983?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255ccd4b4f


That is a single stage regulator.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Left C said:


> I accidentally posted that list before I was finished. I'm done with it now.
> 
> There are plenty that will work fine, but my favorite models are scarce.
> 
> The ones that Anwar will have are nice. He is a Victor tech by trade.


Thanks. I hope Anwar get gets back to me.

Edit:
He did get back to me with good news.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Anwar is a nice guy. His regulators are nice too. They are already set up for our CO2 use.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Left C said:


> Anwar is a nice guy. His regulators are nice too. They are already set up for our CO2 use.


Can't wait to get it. Lol, it will be the fourth one and probably the nicest. All chrome


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

The HPT272 is about the size of your VTS453.

INFO

http://www.dmltrading.com.sg/documentation/HPT270-280.pdf

http://www.thermadyne.com/IM_Uploads/DocLib_2329_56-0676 HPT Series High Purity Regulators.pdf

http://www.thermadyne.com/IM_Uploads/DocLib_1175_56-0874.pdf


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Left C said:


> The HPT272 is about the size of your VTS453.
> 
> INFO
> 
> ...


Thanks Left C.


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## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

single stage is no good ?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jasonak said:


> single stage is no good ?


What makes you think that?

The regulator in your link is one of the better single stage regulators. I believe that SuMo uses this model or one similar in their builds.

Single stage and two stage regulators do their jobs a bit differently. Both have their own purpose. You will have a more even flow from a full CO2 tank until the tank is empty with the two stage regulators. This is its main merit.

Some people want to understand the differences between single and two stage regulators a little more as well as how they work or don't work in some cases. "End of tank dump" is explained even though that phrase is not mentioned. The following comes from a Matheson catalog. It is well written and easy to understand.

*TWO STAGE* regulators reduce the source pressure down to the desired delivery pressure in two steps. Each stage consists of a spring, diaphragm, and control valve. The first stage reduces the inlet pressure to about three times the maximum working pressure. The final pressure reduction occurs in the second stage. The advantage of a dual stage regulator is its ability to deliver a constant pressure, even with a decrease in inlet pressure. For example, as a cylinder of gas is depleted, the cylinder pressure drops. Under these conditions, single stage regulators exhibit a "decaying inlet characteristic"; where the delivery pressure increases as a result of the decrease in inlet pressure. In a two stage regulator, the second stage compensates for this increase, providing a constant delivery pressure regardless of inlet pressure conditions. The dual stage regulator is recommended for applications where a continuous supply of gas is required; such as the gas supplied to analytical instruments where constant delivery pressure is critical.

*SINGLE STAGE* regulators perform the same function as the two stage regulator using a single step reduction of source to outlet pressure. For this reason, the outlet pressure cannot be as accurately controlled as the source pressure decays. We highly recommend single stage regulators only be used in circumstances where the operator can monitor and adjust the regulator as needed or where the regulator is supplied a nearly constant source pressure.

*Regulator Design & Construction Features*



















*How to Choose a Gas Regulator That's Right For Your Application*

*SINGLE-STAGE GAS REGULATOR*










*TWO-STAGE GAS REGULATOR*










*What is the difference between the Single Stage and Two Stage Gas Regulator?*

Gas pressure regulators are used to reduce the pressure of gas supplied from a high-pressure cylinder of gas to a workable level that can be safely used for operating equipment and instruments. There are two basic types of gas pressure regulators: single-stage and two-stage.

Single-stage pressure regulators reduce the cylinder pressure to the delivery or outlet pressure in one step. Two-stage pressure regulators reduce the cylinder pressure to a working level in two steps. Since the performance of each is influenced by mechanical characteristics, the choice of gas regulator depends on the type of application for which it is intended.

The two most important parameters to be considered are *droop* and *supply pressure* effect.

Droop is the difference in delivery pressure between zero flow conditions and the gas regulator's maximum flow capacity. [Supply pressure effect is the variation in delivery pressure as supply pressure decreases while the cylinder empties. For most regulators, a decrease in inlet pressure causes the delivery pressure to increase.

The effect of these differences on performance can be illustrated with some examples. For instance, when a centralized gas delivery system is supplying a number of different chromatographs, flow rates are apt to be fairly constant. Supply pressure variations, however, may be abrupt especially when automatic changeover manifolds are used. In this scenario, a two-stage regulator with a narrow accuracy envelope (supply pressure effect) and a relatively steep droop should be used to avoid a baseline shift on the chromatographs.

Single-stage and two-stage gas regulators have different droop characteristics and respond differently to changing supply pressure. The single-stage regulator shows little droop with varying flow rates, but a relatively large supply pressure effect. Conversely, the two-stage regulator shows a steeper slope in droop but only small supply pressure effects.

On the other hand, if gas is being used for a short duration instrument calibration, a single-stage gas regulator with a wide accuracy envelope (supply pressure effect) but a comparatively flat droop should be chosen. This will eliminate the need to allow the gas to flow at a constant rate before the calibration can be done.

*_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*

*REGULATOR SELECTION (MATERIALS)*

*General Gas Use*

The selection of the proper gas regulator involves many factors including body and internal materials of construction. For general use, regulators of brass construction with elastomeric diaphragms will give good service in noncorrosive service where slight contamination or diffusion from an elastomeric diaphragm is not important. Brass regulators with stainless steel diaphragms prevent air diffusion and adsorption of gases on the diaphragm. This is particularly important with low concentration mixtures of hydrocarbons in which the trace component may be adsorbed on the elastomeric diaphragm.

The gas regulator must be constructed using materials suited to the application. Industrial general purpose regulators are often constructed with either Buna-N or Neoprene diaphragms. Regulators with Buna-N or Neoprene diaphragms are not suitable for GC analysis that can be affected by the diffusion of atmospheric oxygen through the elastomer diaphragm or the outgassing of monomers and dimers from the elastomer. In fact, laboratories that perform temperature programmed analysis are faced with excessive baseline drift and large unresolved peaks due to this diffusion and outgassing.

*High-Purity Gas Service*

The ideal construction for high-purity gas service is a gas regulator that has a stainless steel diaphragm. Such regulators are noncontaminating and assure satisfactory use for all applications of noncorrosive and mildly corrosive gases. Regulators for corrosive gases must be selected from those recommended with each gas listing.

A gas regulator equipped with a stainless steel diaphragm has several advantages over the elastomeric type. It does not outgas organic materials and it also prevents the diffusion of atmospheric oxygen into the carrier gas. Both Buna-N and Neoprene diaphragms are permeable to oxygen. The chemical potential of oxygen between the carrier gas and the atmosphere provides sufficient driving force for oxygen to intrude the carrier gas through a permeable diaphragm.

*Materials of Construction Summary*

The intended gas service for which the gas regulator is used must be compatible with the materials of construction that come in contact with the gas stream. The wetted materials must be compatible with the gas composition.

* o Noncorrosive (Typical Materials):* Aluminum, Brass, Stainless Steel, Buna-N, PCTFE, Neoprene, Teflon®, Viton®, Nylon
*o Corrosive (Typical Materials):* Aluminum, Stainless Steel, Monel®, Nickel, PCTFE, Teflon®

*Regulator Gauges*

Generally single and two-stage gas regulators are equipped with two gauges: a cylinder or inlet pressure gauge, and a delivery or outlet pressure gauge. The cylinder pressure gauge has the higher pressure range and is located adjacent to the inlet port. The delivery pressure gauge of lower pressure range is located adjacent to the outlet port. Although most cylinder regulators have two gauges, regulators utilized on cylinders containing liquefied gases may not have a cylinder pressure gauge because the cylinder pressure varies only with temperature as long as liquid is present in the cylinder.

*Operating Delivery Pressure Range*

Determining the delivery pressure range can be confusing. First, it is important to determine the gas pressure that is needed. Second, determine the maximum pressure the system might require (these two pressures are often the same). Third, select the delivery pressure range so that the required pressures are in the 25 to 90% range of the gas regulator's delivery pressure (a regulator's performance is at its best within this range).

*Regulator Placement (Cylinder or Line)*

Specialty gas regulator applications are divided into two types. The first is when the regulator is fastened to a gas cylinder using a Compressed Gas Association (CGA) fitting (or BS or DIN). The second application is when a regulator is located in a gas line - providing a means to further reduce the line pressure. A line regulator is identified by having the inlet and outlet opposite of each other, and by a single gauge which is in the 12 o'clock position to indicate the reduced pressure.

Buna-N® and Teflon® are registered trademarks of E.I. Dupont de Nemours & Company.
Monel® is a registered trademark of Inco Alloys International Inc. Viton® is a registered trademark of DuPont Dow Elastomers.

*__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*
*
SELECTION CRITERIA SUMMARY*

The application determines which gas regulator to select. For example, a brass regulator should not be used in corrosive gas service. The duration of gas use time helps to identify whether a single-stage or two-stage regulator provides the best service. A single-stage is a good performer for short duration gas usage. A two-stage gas regulator performs best when it is attached to the cylinder and adjusted to the desired reduced pressure, and then remains in service until the cylinder is ready for changeout.

Consider this criteria when planning your next pressure reduction requirements.

1. Use a gas regulator for all pressure reduction requirements.
2. Use a valve for flow control.
3. Materials used in the gas regulator construction are to be compatible with the intended gas service.
4. Determine the delivery pressure requirements.
5. Do you need a cylinder regulator or a line regulator or perhaps both?
6. Determine the accessories to be included with your gas regulator.
7. Determine how you intend to use the pressure regulator. Generally a single-stage regulator is good for short duration applications; a two-stage regulator is good for long duration applications.


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## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

well it sounds like I want a two stage from reading the article that you posted.
Thank you for such a informative description of the differences.I dont think I could have got a better one


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jasonak said:


> well it sounds like I want a two stage from reading the article that you posted.
> Thank you for such a informative description of the differences.I dont think I could have got a better one


You are very welcome.

Jason, a lot of people are happy with their two stage regulators and good quality needle valves. Many people get along fine with single stage regulators and good quality needle valves. Most of the people that have Milwaukee, Azoo, JBJ, etc complained about them. Those things were basically crap. This is why that Rex Grigg, SuMo and GLA started building good quality regulators. Then we took it a step up and started using two stage regulators with good quality needle valves and building our own. About 2 years ago, two stage regulators were cheap on ebay. You could get a nice one for around $30 shipped. This is cheaper than the single stage model that you provided the link to.

Anyway, you may want to read this post (#20) of quotes about needle valves and EOTD. The whole thread is a bit long, but a good read.: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/70084-when-change-co2-tank-2.html#post564633


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## Ben Belton (Mar 14, 2004)

I have had 3 JBJ regulators for 6-8 years without any problems from them.

I don't like the needle valve, but it works. Its just hard to turn.

Other people I know have Milaukee, JBJ's, or other and I don't recall anyone mentioning big problems.

When I first got a CO2 system in 96, I had a regulator from a welding shop and a Clippard needle valve. That worked fine too.


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## jasonak (Oct 26, 2010)

thank you to every one for there input and taking the timre to reply.


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