# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Bubbles per second?!



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

Hello,

All of my CO2 equipment finally came in last week. My last check a few minutes ago showed pH 7.2, KH 8 degrees. This is from a starting pH of 7.8. So at 15.14ppm, I'm getting closer to my target area.

My problem? I was running about 3 bubbles per second to get there. I just upped it to 5 bubbles per second in hopes of bumping me closer to my target of ~25ppm CO2. This seems like an excessive amount of CO2 being used! Is it??

Tank: 75 gallons
Sump: ~30 gallons, with a wet/dry trickle filter
Reactor: Homemade DIY design, CO2 & water in top, output at bottom, filled with bio-balls. The CO2 is almost entirely dissolving in the reactor. Sometimes a tiny bubble will come out of my spray bar, but it doesn't happen too often.
Pump: Supreme-Mag 9.5, 950gph @ 0 foot. I'm running about 4' so that's 800gph, and I've cut the flow back with a valve. Best estimate is somewhere around 400-500gph. I trimmed it back to avoid over-driving both the reactor and my overflow.

There is no surface agitation whatsoever. Spray bar is angled down a bit to avoid this. I've got a nice film on the surface of the water...

Any ideas on why I'm using so much CO2?? There aren't any leaks that I know of...


----------



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

Hello,

All of my CO2 equipment finally came in last week. My last check a few minutes ago showed pH 7.2, KH 8 degrees. This is from a starting pH of 7.8. So at 15.14ppm, I'm getting closer to my target area.

My problem? I was running about 3 bubbles per second to get there. I just upped it to 5 bubbles per second in hopes of bumping me closer to my target of ~25ppm CO2. This seems like an excessive amount of CO2 being used! Is it??

Tank: 75 gallons
Sump: ~30 gallons, with a wet/dry trickle filter
Reactor: Homemade DIY design, CO2 & water in top, output at bottom, filled with bio-balls. The CO2 is almost entirely dissolving in the reactor. Sometimes a tiny bubble will come out of my spray bar, but it doesn't happen too often.
Pump: Supreme-Mag 9.5, 950gph @ 0 foot. I'm running about 4' so that's 800gph, and I've cut the flow back with a valve. Best estimate is somewhere around 400-500gph. I trimmed it back to avoid over-driving both the reactor and my overflow.

There is no surface agitation whatsoever. Spray bar is angled down a bit to avoid this. I've got a nice film on the surface of the water...

Any ideas on why I'm using so much CO2?? There aren't any leaks that I know of...


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

My guess would be the wet/dry filter. Gassing it out.

I too have a wet/dry but on a larger tank. I havnt gotten plants setup yet, so I dont have the cO2 actually turned on yet but odds are I'm probably going to have to replace the wetdry. Such a huge investment of time and $, to be stuck into the attic
















Goodluck!

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## otherguy (Feb 2, 2003)

Hi Ryan, I have about the same exact setup you do and use the same amount of co2 if not more. I really cant even count the amount of bubbles I use. When I had a 55 gallon using a hob filter I used less than half the amount co2. The only thing I can think of it is the wet dry and the overflow. So to me 5 bubbles a second doesnt seem like that much. Some suggestions I have heard about lowering the outgassing of co2 in wet drys is make sure your bio ball chamber is air tight as possible and you could stuff filter floss in your overflow.

Hope this helps,

Brandon


----------



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

Brandon,

How big is your CO2 tank and how long does the CO2 last? I've got a 20lb tank and it cost me $16 to fill. If it will last me a year or so between refills, then I don't care much about co2 waste.

Although, I will take your suggestion on making my bio ball chamber air tight. I should be able to accomplish that fairly easily, & I've already got filter floss in my overflow. Does anyone else have ideas in this area? I have no intention of getting rid of my wey/dry. Spent too much time and money making it. I'd rather refill my CO2 every 6 months (although I'd be really happy if it lasted me a good year or so, not because of the money, but because of the hassle in dragging it down to be refilled).

Thank you!


----------



## otherguy (Feb 2, 2003)

Ryan, well I only have a 5 pound bottle and I try to keep my ph around 6.8. Now I just hooked up a controller and I am hoping to get over a month out of my bottle. The least I had it last was 2 weeks







This is my only complaint about a wet dry filter is the outgassing. If I had to choose I would use it again though, ability to keep everything out of the tank is the best. I will keep on tinkering in hopes to try to make it last longer. I also just built a spray bar for less surface agitation and am looking to getting a 20# tank. 
Do you have a soleoid, if you did you could hook up a timer and turn it off at night, the only drawback is ph swings, but you would use half of the co2. But to answer your question I average about 1 month on refills.

Brandon


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

LOL, this 5# tank aint gonna last me NO time at all, running a 10gal and a 130gal with a wet/dry.









HAHAHA.. Yeah, I'll be getting a 20# soon.









~D

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

I don't understand, Tom Barr and Robert T. Ricketts once told me very seriously that wet/dry filters don't cause any loss of CO2. I guess you are all imagining this.









CO2 will definitely gas out of a wet dry (like I told Plantbrain and RTR). You have to copy the construction of the commercial wet/dry filters that have the lids, and the deep sumps. Then the CO2 should get trapped in the enclosed sump, and loss shouldn't be to great.


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

I did some work on my Wet/dry this evening. Plus having HELL with this DIY reactor. That CO2 tubing is a PITA to work with. But back to wet/drys.. I did some work on mine, I put a valve on my tubing from the overflow. Theory/plan is to fill the hole line up so that the water doesnt splash around in it. And... I further sealed off the bio-chamber. It's not completely sealed, if it were, water wouldnt pass through it (whole reason I 'originally' had it vented).

I dont have the CO2 turned on yet since no plants, and since I cant get CO2 into the darned reactor (cant find a good way to get the tubing to self seal through a whole in the PVC). So I wont know how efficient my changes are for awhile.

~D

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

To get the tubing to seal though the PVC use plain old silicone tubing and just drill the hole smaller than the tubing. I find 11/64th works great. Cut the tubing at an angle and pull it though with pliers.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God!

This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.

Whack Iraq NOW! Another knuckle dragging Neanderthal for war!


----------



## otherguy (Feb 2, 2003)

Now I probably should have asked this question a long time ago, but I have a all glass aquarium with the built in overflow in the corner, with their twin overflow kit. Right now the water drops a good 3 inches till it reaches the stand pipe. Also the stand pipe has a float on it which if I pack floss in the overflow it packs the float in the stand pipe and next thing you know you have water all over the place. Now my question is could I take the float out and pack full of filter floss, and if I did would it help with co2 loss?????

Brandon

75gallon tank, wetdry filter, pressurized co2, uv, flourite substrate, 220watts lighting


----------



## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

I don't think you want to put any filter floss in the overflow. When it clogs up with dirt, you will have a problem. The CO2 is being lost in the turbulence of the overflow. I don't know why it drops 3 inches, but I know it does.


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

I'll let you guys know how my experiment goes. I've taken off my prefilter so the water now will run through the overflow at same speed 24/7. What I did was, put a valve (right before it enteres the wet/dry) on the drain line from the overflow. Plan is to fill the line up with water so that there is no turbulence in the 1" pipe from the crashing water and mixing of air at the overflow exit. I think all the the turbelence in the line is the biggest factor since both ends of the drain line are OPEN, so all that splashing and white washing (rapids type effect) in the line would be prime area for CO2 gas-off. I think anyways.

I'll let you know if it works.. hehe.. PVC glue still curing.

BTW, Rex, I've tried every hole size from 11/64th and up. 11/64th is to small for the tubing Robert sells. And I can't pull the tubing through the reactor since I glued it all together, then drilled the hole. So now I have 3 holes, two I plugged up, and the third has the tubing now stuck through it but it cant be gas tight.







I'm gonna rebuild the reactor and try 'pulling' the tubing through.

~D

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> CO2 will definitely gas out of a wet dry (like I told Plantbrain and RTR). You have to copy the construction of the commercial wet/dry filters that have the lids, and the deep sumps.


So I already have a lid (not airtight, but a decent lid) and a deep sump. I do have a 2" x 4" or so opening at the top of my bio tower, however. I'll try sealing it up.

If my 20# tank only lasts 4 months, I'm going to be a little upset. I figured I'd get 1 to 2 years out of the thing. Only place around here that fills them requires me to be there @ 7:30am and wait around for 30 to 60 minutes. Doing that on a regular basis will get old really quick. Once or twice a year isn't bad though.


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Dojo,

You might have to use some plain old silicone tubing to do the pull though. The CO2 resistant stuff is pretty hard.

Ryan,

It's been a while since I lived in the armpit of Washington but I know there has to be more than one place there that will fill a tank. Have you called the fire extinguisher stores?

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God!

This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

Ryan,

I live in Olympia, and the welding supply here (pacific welding supply) just swaps my empty tank for a full one for cost of contents. Lot easier than waiting to get one filled. Fast, and instant. I'm gonna upgrade to a 20# when this 5 runs out. I had no idea how fast these things ran out when i got it.  Live and Learn.

Rex, I think your right. Gotta get a air hose to air hose connector. I'll check my LFS.

~D

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Have you called the fire extinguisher stores?


Yeah... Oxarc is the only place that actually will fill the bottles on site. Everyone else ships them off to Spokane or elsewhere to be filled.

Dojo - I know I can swap my tank out quickly, but I won't do that. I have a nice aluminum tank with a beautiful shiny finish that cost me a hundred bucks. No way am I going to trade it for a rusty, dented, ugly painted steel tank with a questionable history.

I suppose I'll just see how long it lasts. If it doesn't last long enough for me, I'll buy a second one so I only have to refill half as often.


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

LoL, they gave me a nice aluminum tank. Got lucky I suppose.

~D

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

can someone please explain the reason to use a wet/dry, that is filled to the top with water? isn't that just a bad canister filter?

if the method you are using is flawed, why not try something else? people tell me they use a wet/dry on a co2 injected planted tank, and i just say, 'ok then...'

it seems that once you have gone to the trouble to make a filter, it seems that much more difficult to scrap the idea, when it is deemed unacceptable. sure you only paid 30 bucks, but with planning and execution, that is surely 3 days, with running around for parts, etc. what do you earn at your jobs? that filter would cost me a lot of money in time.

in my planted 35 gal, i use a fluval 1 internal filter (the old type) with a single sponge from an aquaclear mini inside it. it hides in the plants on the back wall and i paid 20 bucks for it. no amm, no nitrite, no surface agitation. i inject air 2 times 1/2 hour per night. fish and plants are fine. seems too easy?

rick


----------



## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

Rick, thats kinda to straight forward. You may not know the original intent of building the wet/dry. I know I built it to filter my 130gal which was intended to keep Africans. It was later I decided to do peaceful fish and try plants.

They're great filters and have IMO just as many ups and downs as any canister filter on the market today (going off of what I've heard from others experiences). You get or build a wet/dry for these features, or you get a canister for those features. But neither is really any better than the other.

As far as cost, I'll be honest, I've invested over $300 into my system. Lots of mistakes, lots of fixes, but the reward from it is the experience I gained from doing it all myself. And a nice filter.







$300 to me, is hardly worth whining over, especially when you(no-one imparticular) can afford to plant a large aquarium and light it. However, if my wet/dry does not work out, then it will be hard to tear it down becuase I *did* put a lot of hours into getting it just right and performing good (minus possible CO2 loss).

The biggest and most saddening feature that I may loose with the wet/dry (If i have to switch to canisters) will be not having the constant water level in the main tank. That to me is the biggest bonus to having a sump-type filter.

~D

----------------------------
~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I can't believe that the fire extinguisher shops don't fill on-site. It's pretty much a standard practice for them. If you need your extinguisher filled you really can't wait. But then again I did live in that place for 10 years and was always amazed at how small and isolated it really is.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God!

This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> The biggest and most saddening feature that I may loose with the wet/dry (If i have to switch to canisters) will be not having the constant water level in the main tank. That to me is the biggest bonus to having a sump-type filter.


I agree!











> quote:
> 
> I can't believe that the fire extinguisher shops don't fill on-site. It's pretty much a standard practice for them.


So, I think the deal here is that Oxarc also fills pretty much all of the fire extinguishers in town. There were rows upon rows of them waiting to be filled when I was there. They basically have a monopoly in this market. Which is fine, their prices seem reasonable, it's just a pain in the butt to get it filled: They're 20 minutes away from my house in the wrong direction (as opposed to work), and their "CO2 guy" is only there early in the morning. If I could just swing by some place on the way home from work it wouldn't be a big deal, but this one requires taking a couple hours off.

Ohhh, I just had a thought. Maybe I can send my wife down to fill it???







She stays at home with the kids, so... (cue evil, maniacal laughter)


----------



## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

dojo, have fun, but i think you will decide to scrap the wet/dry. sorry my post sounded a bit harsh. i'm sure you'll do ok.

rick


----------



## Ryan Wright (Feb 4, 2003)

FYI on anyone who has been following this thread:

I got my co2 up to 28ppm @ ~10 bubbles per second. That's not bad. Only problem is, my KH also went up 1 degree. Looks like I need to remove the rest of my rock cave structures. I pulled the most potent rocks out several months ago and *thought* the others were OK. They were, with DIY CO2, but.. oh well.

Anyway, it's looking like I won't be wasting too terribly much CO2. 

Thanks again to everyone for your help.


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Ryan,

Test your rocks with some Muriatic acid. Forget the vinegar. It only works with some very soft rock. Go to the BORG and buy some real acid and test your rock. If the acid makes it fizzle then get it out of the tank.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

Ryan, most places will swap you a comparable tank to yours if you ask. Also, if you swap you won't have to worry about getting yours re-tested in 5 years. A re-test costs $20 here.
Len

HAVE DISCS - WILL TRAVEL


----------



## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

Before you scrap your wet-dry filter, check out this website from George Booth:
http://www.frii.com/~gbooth/AquaticConcepts/index.htm
If you search in there, you will find a couple of articles about CO2 and wet-dry filters, including some investigations he did about CO2 loss. I can't tell you if you will find your answer, since I'm of the opinion that wet-dry filters DO lose CO2, but you may see something useful.


----------



## Kathy (Feb 2, 2003)

I hope you figure out how to lower the CO2 use so the wet dry filter is usable. I am using 2 b/s of CO2 in a 100 gallon tank with KH of 5 to get to my target pH of 6.8. The ten pound tank is exchanged about every four months.

The constant water level, the surface skimming, heater and CO2 reactor out of the tank and the high O2 in the water are all really good reasons to keep a wet dry filter.

Only modification I made was to put a bioball in the middle of the overflow sponge to make the overflow quieter. I figure the quieter the filter, less turbulence, less CO2 loss. Am using a spraybar of PVC that goes along the bottom back of the tank holes facing forward. The antisiphon hole is drilled just at the level the overflow stops draining out and is pointed down rather than out. I like the ripple it makes.

My reactor is working fine. It is an incredibly lazy way to do it. I am feeding the CO2 into a small powerhead and that outflow is going right into my big powerhead back into the tank. Yeah, some bubbles get into the tank but it sure was easy to do.


----------



## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

Kathy, you might want to check for a leak. 2 bubbles/sec. should exhaust a 10 lb. tank in about 10 months. Of course, you may be using some big bubbles; I'm refering to bubbles 0.1" in diameter.


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Two bubbles a second for a 100 gallon doesn't sound like a lot of CO2 to me.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## otherguy (Feb 2, 2003)

I agree with you Rex, actually sounds kinda low. I would be ecstatic if I had that.

Brandon

75gallon tank, wetdry filter, pressurized co2 with controller, uv, flourite substrate, 220watts lighting


----------

