# Video - US pet fish trade



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

This is a video of a super nice, clean and organized facility in Florida. But in every store in DFW the fish are barely hanging alive. It feels like hitting a jackpot to buy a fish and to actually have it live and last. What gives?

One answer is that most stores get their fish very much directly from Asia. Asian exporters supply inbred fish that have been severely crowded. In the US the middle man that stands between the store and the Asian exporter does not keep the fish for even a few days. Airplane -->middle man-->in the store the same day. Zero quarantine. You quarantine in your own tank and blame yourself for dead fish.

I just "special ordered" some rasboras at a local store. The fish arrived yesterday and they called me to go get them. I'm happy I will have fish that are pretty much rare but I am taking the risk of the quarantine. The fish are hot off the plane/middle man. That's all good but I'm not even sure they got the right species, haha.

Note that in the video they say that the fish stay with them 2 weeks. Proper quarantine is about 3 months. No one can run a business doing that.


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

cool thanks.


----------



## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

I've been to several importers in Europe, most keep them for at least 2 weeks as well. Fish arive, get into quarantine with so much medicine, you can't even see the fish. After a week, they drain 90%, check for deads and do the week medicine again. If after two weeks the fish are still OK and no casualties, they are shipped to shops. 
I don't think it is necessary to quarantine for 3 months, although this wouldn't hurt either. In two weeks you can filter out 98% of all diseases. From time to time a batch gets through, and needs to be medicated in the lfs. No big deal I think. If the fish are quarantined for 3 months, they would cost 5 times the price they do now and only get maybe 1.9% better. 
So if the fish are really that bad you say they're in the US, I think they don't even quarantine for two weeks, or at least don't medicate them.
But what do the shops do to prevent cross contamination between tanks? I think this is another very important (and though) subject. Our shop medicates the fish till they are good again. Every tank has its own filter so if one tank is sick, only one tank is sick. If untreatable, the tank gets drained and cleaned and left without fish for a few days before new fish enter it. All fishing nets, get disinfected between every catch, and this one sounds logic but really isn't, the sick fish aren't sold!


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Nice, informative video.

reminds me of my days as a teenager working in a local fish store. One of my jobs was to pickup fish at the airport and unload into our tanks.

bob


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yo-han,

If you take a walk in virtually every single pet store here in Dallas you will get sad. Very sad. Unhealthy looking fish are a normal sight. Prices are low but most of us think that $5 is better spent on a disgusting hamburger made with mystery meat.

Cross contamination is a phrase that does not exist here. The same net goes everywhere. Filtration is often with a sump that is connected to several tanks.

The people that work at the store are normally disinterested in fish. Even if they are interested in fish the low wages wear the passion down.

Species selection is very limited. No one buys "rare" freshwater fish from a store so the stores get the simplest species.

Not a single store has even decent looking plants. A pretty realistic hope is that a new store that is opening right now will be different from all others. Funny thing is the owner is Dutch.


----------



## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

I would pay 5x to to goto a store with health fish and good employees, but I am the exception rather then rule. >10/ hour does not get you good employees. 

Sent from my SGH-T599N using Tapatalk


----------



## acitydweller (Feb 14, 2012)

I suspect that the water in DFW is rather hard. Many of the fish i purchase online are directly from asia and south america coming from softer more acidic water. I suspect that many LFS, as i have seen in my local area, dont really practice proper acclimation. After these guys are heavily medicated and spend days in transit, their immune systems are likely compromised to the point that the chances for recovery from a dunk acclimiation is often terminal.  yes, heart breaking indeed....


----------



## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Yo-han said:


> But what do the shops do to prevent cross contamination between tanks? ... and this one sounds logic but really isn't, the sick fish aren't sold!


Yo-han, American retail is all about high-volume/low-margin. Stores don't reserve space for things that don't sell quickly. The most popular fish are restocked before the weekend, and then almost completely soldout before the next shippment comes in. You can't really buy anything on a Tuesday or Wednesday. Not anything worth buying at least. Those sick fish are sold... and likely sold first.

This isn't just fish stores. Retail businesses are nothing more than a hotel for products. It's in... It's out. Anything else and you're special ordering. It's ironic _(or moronic, take your pick)_ that all these retailer complain that the Internet is putting them out of buisness, but they continue to fail at offering anything beyond what a computer and FedEx can provide.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Acclimation all right... You should have seen 200 Kuhli loaches packed in about half a gallon of water. The Asian exporters cram the fish in crazy ways. Your first reaction is to get the fish out of the stinky bags. No point of acclimating anything. The problem is that the Asian exporters will do any kind of packaging you request but the US customers will not pay more either way. So it all goes down to stressed fish that you are moving. 50% loss is normal with Asia. Completely different if getting South American fish - barely any mortality. 


Sent from my RM-893_nam_att_206 using Tapatalk


----------



## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Wow, we have over 200 tanks, ranging from 30 to 150 gallon. Every tank has its own filter, which is a little more work, but pays back in no cross contamination and thus well worth the trouble. 
With an average of 50 - 100 fish in a tank depending on the species, we loose about 20 fish a day. Which we are always trying to minimize. We have normally 2 max 3 tanks with sick fish we don't sell. So 20 fish isn't a lot but still...

Why don't you guys try to help a local store? Explain your background, the knowledge you have, the passion for fish and offer them free advice if they are open to it. 

A friend of me has done that for small stores around here, free advice on how to setup and maintain showtanks with live plants. Almost all stores welcomed the idea and he setup small showtanks in the shops, explained how to maintain them and how to make money from it. Nothing to win for him. But in your case you get better fish in return and maybe even a nice discount if they save money

The most important thing is not lecturing them, but make it sound interesting from a business point of view!


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yo-han said:


> ..Why don't you guys try to help a local store? Explain your background, the knowledge you have, the passion for fish and offer them free advice if they are open to it.
> 
> A friend of me has done that for small stores around here, free advice on how to setup and maintain showtanks with live plants. Almost all stores welcomed the idea and he setup small showtanks in the shops, explained how to maintain them and how to make money from it. Nothing to win for him. But in your case you get better fish in return and maybe even a nice discount if they save money
> 
> The most important thing is not lecturing them, but make it sound interesting from a business point of view!


I have tried that. The mentality of an American pet store owner is very primitive. As soon as they see they can get something for free they want more and more and more. All free. The discounts they give are ridiculous (if any). In 3 weeks they do not remember what you did for them. Some years ago I setup a 240 gallon tank for free and maintained it every other day for the first two months. When I asked for $100 a month to continue maintaining it I was told they will do it themselves. Two weeks later the tank was ruined - algae all over. I asked if they changed water, they said not in the last 2 weeks. They let the tank be full of algae + dying plants (replaced every so often) for about 2 years. Customers must have been ok with it. The mentality of the customers is not further ahead from the mentality of the pet store owner. All primitive and about saving 50 cents.

Another story: I ended up with 4 expensive discus. Had to get rid of them. Went to an old established store. The old Stomach Gas owner looked at me, looked at the fish, and told me he can not sell them. He gave me 3 angel fish ($9 each) n return for discus that cost $200. The next day I walk in the store and the Stomach Gas owner had labeled the discus for sale. $99 each. In Texas this is known as being a "businessman". Zero relationship with the customers. All about the money.

That is why I avoid pet stores around here.

We have tried being part of the life of pet stores as a club too. Same result. Not a lasting relationship with a single store. The highlight was getting a new Fluval filter to raffle. I hope I am wrong but that is what I remember.

All this boils down to the fact that 99% of the pets stores barely make it. They drag on but the owner skims the only profits. It is not a thriving business that will bring you joy every day. The employees are helpful and good when new and excited. After a month they get disengaged. The best guys that I know working at local pet stores are the extreme cases of addiction to aquariums. Weird folk. Real, but out there.


----------



## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Umzz... I hope that is just Texas. At some point I was thinking about starting my own shop. Not very serious, because I think it will be hard to compete with other shops around here. I can name at least 5 good to excellent shops in less than an hour drive from here. Maybe I should open a lfs in Texas


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I have a perfectly good shop here in Colorado. The fish are very healthy. Nothing is sold before it spends a few days and anything that is remotely looking ill is treated.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

The way I see it the customer shapes the business. Dallas is a saltwater tank place. Freshwater is seen as cheap and so-so pretty. Every single time people see a nice planted tank they ask "That's saltwater, right?". They associate it with "expensive". And really, that is a good point. Great is never cheap. That is why for a long time now I have believed that the cheapo mentality and the DIY to save a buck kill the planted tank hobby. Except that lately I started to admit that certain types of people gravitate toward certain fields, hobbies, businesses. For example if you have ever gotten pizza delivery for a short time you have unknowingly become part of a crowd that is generally lazy, tired, cheap, eats bad food, and works too much. That is a generalization but you can see the logic. The same goes for the average planted tank enthusiast. Cheap, trend oriented, not much desire for insight. When mixed with the people genuinely interested in the hobby we end up with what we have today - not a high end hobby by any means.


Sent from my RM-893_nam_att_206 using Tapatalk


----------



## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Salt is king in the us. I would actually say it is easier to build a nice reef, then it is planted. Lots more knowledge base and far more automation.

Sent from my SGH-T599N using Tapatalk


----------



## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

I think I know of the tank you are talking about NIkolay. if it's in Plano. the owner is proud of his corals, they are over priced and his tank a reef tank 530 gallons (YES 530 not 53.0 gallons) . it sucks that America is sit down what fox news as if it's real news, no dinner time meals, because you got fast food on every corner. I agree with nikolay America would reather eat a big mac, and supper size it. then pay for knowledge and why mister gold fish die. it's "oh well flush it down the drain it was only 10 cents. buy another one and another one.

me I have 2 10 gallons for QT, my discus where QT 4-6 weeks before I put them in the custom build 7 foot 125 gallon tank I use to have.

man you know what.......... GO !!!!!!!!!!

(pg-13) -----


----------

