# Altums



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Anybody ever keep altums? Are the beauties more trouble than they are worth?


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

Keeping 8 of them right now. Beautiful fish and definitely worth it. Once acclimated, they're not hard to keep at all. Only thing that I have to warn against is keeping them with smaller fishes. My pack went through a school of green neons when they were much younger and recently have noticed them hunting my rummynoses (down to 8 from 13). Here's a few of mine.


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## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

Maybe anyone who responds to this could also write a little about how they`re keeping them? Pleeeeeease!


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

They are beauties. How big is your tank? I have cardinals, but they are extra large- way over an inch, and fat. Do you think the angels eat big ones too, or just the small fry?

The big question is: Where did you get them? I am in CT, USA. Can't seem to find any, even on the internet.


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

Sure, I can tell you a bit about them.

Got these as small juveniles from a friend of mine who brought in 15 of them, but decided to switch over to discus, so I picked them up (have wanted them for awhile, but the prices were always really high before when I was looking; $125 for a juvenile).

They're currently housed in a 90 gallon breeder tank (36x24x24) kept at 82F. They were originally kept in pH 6.7 and KH 6 waters, but due to some changes to the tank (switched over to Aquasoil, which softened the water), they're currently in pH 6.2 and KH 2 waters. They're fed mostly Hikari frozen bloodworms and some frozen mysis. I go through a pound of frozen bloodworms every 2-3 weeks depending on how often I feed them (at times, I feed them 4-5 times a day).

Behaviorally, they're very similar to other angels, but get larger (my largest is nearing in on 10" tip to tip vertically). They're also more territorial and will fight at times even during feeding. Water-wise, they're very similar to discus and if they're not liking it, it's very easy to tell since their appetites will be reduced dramatically. I also use EI dosing and haven't seen any problems with it.

If you plan on housing large cardinals with them, I would do so with caution. I'd put those cardinals in there first and start out with really small altums. I tried it very early on with these guys, when they had silver dollar size bodies, and a pack of 18 green neons. One week later, no more green neons. They do well with larger tetras and I'm having luck with some rummynoses, when I'm feeding them enough. Over the holiday break, I didn't feed them for 10 days, and came back to find that I was short by 2 rummynoses. I also used to have some guppies in the tank, but those disappeared within the first month also (had some decent sized females).

As for availability, check with Ken at:

[email protected]

I've seen some very nice altums who got them from Ken. Last time that I saw his post was on Feb. 3, 2006 and he indicated that he shipped a number of them in. Send him a message and check to see if he has any still available.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Thanks! I'm not quite ready for them yet...but appreciate the recommendation, and info.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

ibn, good to see nice healthy altums...agree with you on all points. 
funny thing we're thousands of miles apart we're feeding the same brand bloodworms! same sized tank as well! 3x2x2!
mine's ~6.5in ht. got 9. 
so far they've left my yamatos, cardinals, rummies, gold tetras...alone. not mouth sized yet i bet! haha

fertilizing i must say is top up water every 3-5 days[using fan to bring down temp to 26-27c], pour a cap of nutrafin plant gro iron plus everyweek week, a pinch of KH2PO4 now and then whenever spot algae appears. some Dennerle plantzen gold, some E15,V30 sometime whenever the plants need a boost. some ADA multi long bottom every three months. 
uh...very laidback routine...co2 is 1-2bubbles a sec, WC- none since june 2005.
was 220W fl...now 120W fl, +70W mh.

vancat, what's stopping you? if it's $$$, they're worth it! ask anybody who's seen them in a school!


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

here's a nov 05 pix...


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Two things are keeping me from keeping them, 
gotta FIND some!
and
gotta make room in my tank!
(this involves finding new homes for seven very large & boisterous rainbows that I growed up from eggs)


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## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

Ibn said:


> (have wanted them for awhile, but the prices were always really high before when I was looking; $125 for a juvenile).


125 bones each?!?! Holy crap!!!!!!!!! And you guys have 6-8 swimming around????


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

LOL, nah, that was awhile back, when I first looked at them. That was years ago.

You can get them around $15-30 each on avg. nowadays.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

hahaha...ditto...
ask your local fish importer. if you guys have direct flights from colombia for wild stocks...it should be 20bucks for BIG ones.

alternatively germany has lots of tank bred juvies


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

I have the "Peruvian Altum" which I have heard is really P. scalare.

They are easy to keep, I do nothing special to my municipal tap water that comes out at GH 10-12 and pH 7.5-8.0. They swim and eat like hogs. Particularly live brine shrimp.

Only thing I've noticed is some really bad aggression towards the other angels on the part of the largest one. He really is a b******.

Hence: make sure you have a big tank


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

had two of those, looks very similar...only difference i see is the fins are not as elongated...
agree some aggression is apparent from the top dog...


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

here's two... died from exposure to some sick discus.
lesson not to keep discus with them.

the dorsal seems shorter than the 'true altums'


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Ibn
I emailed your connection Ken, we may be doin' some bizness in a few months! Thank you!
penny (vancat)


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

Good to know, Penny. Good luck with them.

Beautiful fish, Standoyo. Mine are just slightly larger than yours at the moment. They don't look that big in the tank since I see them every day, but I just got back from a three day trip, and they look bigger, haha. 

Not sure what the largest one in my pack currently is. Last time that I checked, the largest altum was slightly more than 9" vertically (they range from this large one to the smallest, which has a 7" vertical).


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Thanks for getting me all stoked about getting them. I am going to wait until May for a couple of reasons. But I'll be all ready for them! 

Did you have any issues with parasites? or deaths?

Also, I'm going to set up a Q tank. How big of a tank should I get for 7-10 of them? I have a 6g and a 10g but don't think those will be big enough. But not really sure how big and/or aggressive these little angels are when they first arrive. 

Thanks for all of your help.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Just to clarify...the tank I'm asking about would just be a QUARANTINE tank. The tank they will eventually live in will be a 72 gallon bowfront.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

ibn, i think together we got some guys and girls fever on altums up! 

muahahaa...
like you i go away for a bit and imagine they are bigger or the tank looks smaller!

do you think the last pic i posted are 'true altums' ? frankly i can't really see the difference except for shorter dorsal fins and thicker set body. the importer insists these are the real thing but not the 'A' grade.
anyway these two gone to heaven already...some fungus infected them from my discus and in two days gone...

the new ones i have are 30% smaller than yours but have slightly better proportions... than my previous ones.

vancat: from experience, they are easy to keep and if i have to pick a weakness, i think white spot, fin rot and some fungus disease...
and you do have to quarantine every small fish you want to put into the tank with them. better safe than sorry... i was... luckily only two...

i have a 5x2x2 footer on standby once they reach 8-10 in. and a 7.5x2.5htx2 when they reach 12 in ht... most amazing schooling fish IMO...a contrast to my more sedate discus...

i dare to dream about breeding them in future...


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

They look awfully like them, except for that dorsal fin damage. They have that typical coloration and fin extensions, but would be interested to see if they had any sort of spotting on them as well.

For quarantining, you can probably just use a 10 gallon (depending on how large they are). That's the same size tank that I used to quarantine these guys when I first picked them up. No problems with parasites or death here.

Haha, I think that's the ultimate dream for all those that keep these guys. I was able to sex some of mine on a few occasions when they would drop their breeding tubes. I think it had to do more with overeating on their part versus anything else. On the other end of this is that the largest altum in the tank hangs out with another one that he doesn't attack at all. Just have to wait and see what happens.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Ibn said:


> They look awfully like them, except for that dorsal fin damage. They have that typical coloration and fin extensions, but would be interested to see if they had any sort of spotting on them as well.
> 
> For quarantining, you can probably just use a 10 gallon (depending on how large they are). That's the same size tank that I used to quarantine these guys when I first picked them up. No problems with parasites or death here.
> 
> Haha, I think that's the ultimate dream for all those that keep these guys. I was able to sex some of mine on a few occasions when they would drop their breeding tubes. I think it had to do more with overeating on their part versus anything else. On the other end of this is that the largest altum in the tank hangs out with another one that he doesn't attack at all. Just have to wait and see what happens.


wow... good luck...if you're successful please pm me! there's not much literature on altums about breeding. closely guarded secret for obvious reasons. i hear they're similar like discus... a water change and they'll get frisky!

there was spotting...
the fin damage is unavoidable for us here. 60hr transits are the main problem...

btw how old you estimate are your fish?


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Hey Ibn
does ken have a website? PM me if you don't want to broadcast it.
Thanks!


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

standoyo said:


> wow... good luck...if you're successful please pm me! there's not much literature on altums about breeding. closely guarded secret for obvious reasons. i hear they're similar like discus... a water change and they'll get frisky!
> 
> there was spotting...
> the fin damage is unavoidable for us here. 60hr transits are the main problem...
> ...


Keeping my fingers crossed. The water that the altums are in is actually softer than what I've been able to breed discus with in the past. It's currently at pH 6.2 with a KH of 2. Could probably bring this down even further but it would require fiddling with RO, which I'm not quite interested in at the moment. They have been dropping their tubes right after the water changes, when the pH shoots up to 6.7 (using tap water) so using RO might do the trick.

I've read about another occurrence with the long transit times when the fins would get burned all the way to the nub from ammonia. Doesn't sound like fun at all.

Age wise, I'm not quite sure. I've had them for approximate a year now and the guy that had them before that had them for around 2 months before that. I'm guessing that they were about 4 months old or so when he picked them up. All in all, they would be around 1 1/2 years old using those numbers.


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

vancat said:


> Hey Ibn
> does ken have a website? PM me if you don't want to broadcast it.
> Thanks!


Not that I'm aware. Sorry about that.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

1 1/2 years, cool, i estimate mine to be 9 months+ assuming they get to 3" ht in 2 months.

my water is pretty turbid compared to yours. kh is like 5-6. i'm the ph is like 7.8. just a grow out tank till they reach 8+ inch. then i'll be moving them soon to a bigger tank...

-------
burned fins have to be treated immediately. i've scooped up two who were being bullied with burned fins and dipped them in 1ppt salt for half an hour. i also rubbed some salt on the affected fins. [all that discus keeping is makes keeping altums a breeze...]

i can't imagine keeping nubbed altums.

-------

ah the flight from colombia plus transit via amsterdam is not funny... my friend imported 5 boxes of adult altums- 180 fish...none made past 4th day.
so sad really...some were 12" tall.

-------

the fellas i have now are like really precious!


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

N/P...I found a guy in NJ! Gonna get 'em soon!


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Hey guys
I got my altums! Unfort, there was a rough ride (evidently) and 3 out of 7 died. But the other 4 are up and at 'em (and eating). We had some fin burnage, probably ammonia damage from the dead bodies. But the remaining 4 do look lively.

Questions for you:
Should I use Melafix for the burned fins? Will they eventually grow back? Right now they are 2-3 inch round body size, not counting fins, so they do have some growing to do. 

One guy has a major split in the dorsal.

Despite my disappointment and guilt that some had to die because of my endeavors, these fish are indeed gorgeous & graceful and I can't stop watching them.

Thanks for your encouragement...it's all because of you. awww....


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

Congrats on your new fish. You can use both Melafix and Pimafix if you want on them without any problems, other than the smell :lol:. Those two combination should help with broad spectrum of maladies. 

Fin damage is nothing to worry about, especially with the split dorsal. Over time it'll grow back in. As long as the fin rays are still there, your chances are good.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Cool, thanks, I'll shoot you a pic when they look better!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Although I dislike fish that are different than barely visible I have to say that Altums are exceptional fish. I think they are more beautiful than some sw fish.

I had about 10 very small ones, direct import from Colombia. Price was $12 a piece (about 3 years ago). They were sick and gradually in the course of 3 or so weeks all of them died although they ate normally. By that time I had seen how they school when feeling safe and it was amazing. They resided by themselves in a 6 ft tank, each fish was about 1-1/4 inches long, and they never showed any prominent stripes. I gave the last 5 to a discus breeder that is a friend of mine hoping that they will do better there but we had no luck.

I read that one needs to "flush" the newly aquired wild Altum's system with very much all the available medicines. Basically one treatment after another. I have no idea how they'd survive that, but that's what I heard.

Here are some pictures taken only 2 min after I transferred them to my tank. Some pictures show bumps on their bodies that made them appear not 100% healthy. No strange behaviour though other than general shyness the first several days:

http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum1.jpg
http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum2.jpg
http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum3.jpg
http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum4.jpg
http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum5.jpg
http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum6.jpg
http://www.deepforestaquatics.com/aqua/misc/altum7.jpg

I lost $160 on these fish, but I'd buy and give them a try again if I have a chance!

--Nikolay


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

hi niko,
ummm. those are parasites under the skin. will lead to probs later on. sorry to hear about your fish.
they are def worth getting...

vancat,
don't let the main dorsal rays burn. swab with some melafix or salt quick.
the main rays don't grow back as long. sometimes it grows back crooked or tips with rays not joined.


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

Yup, definitely parasites underneath the skin. A couple of mine had that problem when I first got them. Ran them through Melafix, Pimafix, and then dewormed them over the course of the first two weeks. Smooth sailing since then. They aren't as social as they used to be and only school when they're scared. Otherwise, they're running each other around the tank.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

hi ibn,
thanks for sharing...what do you use for deworming?

i read somewhere the parasites under the skin are quote David Schleser '...tiny black dots or pin point pimples are most likely encysted larvae of digenetic flukes...to reach maturity it has to be eaten by the final fluke host like large water bird, mammal.
so they cannot reproduce in aquarium, harm and eventually disappear.'


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

I have been Melafix'ing them for 3 days now. Filmy/stringness is gone. I can't really swab these guys. They freak out if I get too close to the tank. The Melafix seems to be working. One of them has some white pimples (not ich). I'm thinking after the Melafix I'll Pimafix, then....what?

Here's a pic.
penny
(vancat)


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

They look pretty good in that picture. The main rays on their finnage are still there, so I wouldn't worry too much about them (unless there's something there that I'm not seeing). 

Stan, I used some Levamisole from some pigeon supply place. Forgot which ones, but if you search online, I'm pretty sure you can find it.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

You are right- the one you are seeing in the front is the only one pretty much undamaged...the other 3 have stubby fins. looky here...


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

thanks eric, levamisole sounds powerful.

i will try to get some for any wild fish that i get...

vancat, looks promising. the pimples will go away according to literature i've read somewhere on wild angelfish


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## Ibn (Oct 20, 2004)

Looks good. The main rays look like they're still there and should grow back over time. I'd just monitor them for any signs of infection if anything.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Do you think I should bother with Pimafix and/or anything for parasites? I've been doing Melafix daily for about 5 days so far.

Thanks for all of your help.

Also, they are super skittish, but calming down slowly day by day. I'm not looking forward to the day I have to net them out of the Quarantine tank (won't be for a while). Any suggestions?
Thanks guys.


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