# NO3 test showed 0 right after 20ppm addition



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

I did a PWC, w/ Prime - then added ferts. 20 min later, I did a NO3 test, it showed 0. I know I added 20ppm... Does Prime bind NO3 too? If so, will the plants eventually get it, or do I have to add more??


----------



## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

How old is the test kit? I would say its bad. Dont rely on test kits 100% unless they are good ones. Lamotte for example is a good one


----------



## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

I would double check if what I added was really nitrate if it checks out, I would test again. If it still shows zero, I would toss this test kit out and get a better one.


----------



## zig (Jul 3, 2005)

If its a 2 part test kit make sure you agitate it correctly or it will give you false readings, but it sounds like the kit may be gone bad, don't keep adding KNO3 always suspect the testkit first of all.


----------



## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

your kit is cashed. 

If you're not sure take a sample to your LFS or fellow hobbyist that has a working kit to test what your water is really at.


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

It's a 2 month old API Master test kit (2 parts ,I waited the prescribed time & preshook the 2d solution).
It should be fine. I think the Prime is masking the result...

Fert is from Greg Watson, KNO3 ~4.2g/dose (about 15ppm for a 170L tank).

Someone else w/ an API kit & Prime... please run a NO3 right after a PWC w/ prime & ferts addition... I bet you come out low too.


----------



## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

I don't think Prime is masking 20ppm of nitrates in your tank. Why not use a different brand test kit and compare results?


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Why not just test the kit with a known nitrate concentration and see if it reads it correctly? All test kits should be verified with known solutions, even the 'expensive' ones.


----------



## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

you may have gotten your test kit only 2 months ago, but do you know how long they were sitting on the shelves? so i would definitely do what the others have suggested.


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

I don't have them in front of me, but the kit came from a high volume online source & exp dates on bottles are long. I do have teh stuff needed to make a known NO3/RO solution, maybe it's time to verify the kit's accuracy...


----------



## AndyT. (Jun 28, 2006)

Squawkbert, I'm curious... what if you took a small amount of water and added KNO3 to it, tested the water then added prime and retested? Quick way to test your hypothesis.


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

^ That's pretty much exactly what I'm planning on doing... I keep forgetting to bring my KNO3 in to work so I can accurately prepare a known standard solution, so I may just spike a few grains into a water sample, split it in two, add a droplet of prime to one & test both...


----------



## AndyT. (Jun 28, 2006)

Keep us posted when you remember.


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

I did the crude version of the test last night.

I took ~40mL of tank water, added a pinch of KNO3 to it, dissolved, poured one aliquot into a API test tube, added a drop of Prime to the remaining tank water/nitrate solution and poured another aliquot into another API tube. Then I did NO3 tests on both tubes. I got a 5ppm reading on the tank water and a 0 on the Prime treated version. There is a definite difference in the colors. The neat tank water is nearly clear.

I may repeat this using tapwater as the tank water has some Prime in it and I'm pretty sure the pinch of KNO3 I added to the 40mL was more than 5ppm.
(for 40mL, 5ppm=0.32mg KNO3, I'm sure I added lots more - in the 10-20mg neighborhood).

So, there is some NO3 masking going on as a result of using Prime in the tank.

Take-home message: Don't use your NO3 readings to set your ferts schedule if you're using Prime (or anything like it, probably).

Next question to answer: Is Prime depriving my plants of NO3? If so, Python users are going to have some tough choices to make...


----------



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Interesting. Here is an excerpt from the Prime FAQ on the Seachem website:

"Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?

A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product. "

So does this mean that the Nitrate is still available to the plants or not? I have asked Seachem in their sponsor forum to comment. Note that in the above quote they indicate that this happens when Prime is used "at elevated levels"...

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...effect-of-prime-on-no3-levels.html#post276487


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

I'm hoping that it's just a H-bonded complex being formed in all cases. If that's true, you probably need a lot less Prime than you're adding now (as in treat the whole tank on initial fill, repeat every 5th 20% PWC!).

If it is eventually available to the bacteria, I would hazard a guess that it is also available to plants. 

If it renders the NO3 useless to plants, I'll have about 240mL for sale, cheap (back to Novaqua).


----------



## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

Squawkbert said:


> It's a 2 month old API Master test kit (2 parts ,I waited the prescribed time & preshook the 2d solution).
> It should be fine. I think the Prime is masking the result...
> 
> Fert is from Greg Watson, KNO3 ~4.2g/dose (about 15ppm for a 170L tank).
> ...


Ahhh i see you should have waited at least 2 hours before testing for nitrates after add them to your water.

Ap test kits are really good at least the one i have is.


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

will5 said:


> Ahhh i see you should have waited at least 2 hours before testing for nitrates after add them to your water.


Is that in the Prime or API literature? I missed it...


----------



## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

I've always suspected as much from conditioners that claim to neutralize nitrate and nitrite. I've tried to stay away from those, but it's hard since I live in a city that uses chloramine instead of chlorine. However, I've been using Tetra AquaSafe for the past few months and my nitrate levels have remained normal. I'm interested to know what you find out!


----------



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Here's Seachem's reply in their Sponsor forum:

"I apologize for the delayed response. I have read the thread posted in another forum. Prime may be interfering with API's test kit. Prime does not remove nitrates; it detoxifies nitrate so it is not harmful to fish (as anonapersona stated). The nitrates are still present and available to the plants for use and to bacteria."

I've used NO3 test kits (calibrated) from LaMotte and JBL and both have always shown correct levels of NO3 even with the use of Prime as a dechlorinator.

In re-reading the thread, I also notice that the "control" in the test (a pinch of KNO3 in 40ml of non-Prime treated water) gave a wrong result as well: 5mg/l of NO3 when it should have shown much higher... a pinch of KNO3 is alot in 40ml of water. I'd recommend testing your kit against a known concentration (as opposed to a pinch) as I think your kit is off or the shaking part of the process wasn't vigorous enough.


----------



## daveedka (Aug 26, 2004)

So that we can all be clearon this, how much prime do you use at WC. Do you treat for the entire tank volume or just the water added ? I occasionally use prime, but never treat for anything more than the change water itself. My tank water has no need of further conditioning. Elevated levels have been brought up several times, so I was curious as to levels used when seeing these results. 


I also would throw in that if you are seeing no signs of ntrate defeciancy, then it would be reasonably safe to conclude that The nitrate is still palnt available when bound by Prime. IF you are working in the 20 and below ppm realm it wouldn't take much to show nitrate defeciencies if Prime were binding it.


Dave


----------



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I dose Prime according to the instructions which are that you dose the entire tank volume if you are adding the new water directly to the tank (eg with a Python).


----------



## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

For major water changes (50% or more), I dose enough for the whole tank, otherwise, I dose my buckets as I make them. I'm sure there was a little "left over" Prime in the tank when i did my testing.

I also believe that my plants are not showing NO3 deficiency symptoms, so the only "problem" is that Prime treated tanks are not easily tested for NO3 w/ API kits. This makes the idea of monitoring NO3 to know when/how much to dose problematic (to those of us who like the concept of EI but don't like weekly 50% PWCs).


----------

