# Substrate problem



## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Hello,

I have recently filled my 4'x2'x1' tank with a substrate mix. On the bottom is a rich red mineralized soil I bought from a nursery, on top of that is eco complete and on top of that river gravel. Im having big problems with tank clarity and frankly filters dont do a thing. Every time I poke my finger into the substrate a brown cloud comes out with some gas bubbles and makes the tank murky again.

I followed the instructions given to setup a soil underneath the gravel (capped) and its not resolving itself very well even with many water changes. The water is a cloudy white at the moment. Please help.


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## melauriga (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm not sure what the rich red mineralized soil is, but given that it is red maybe it has a high iron content? In The Book Ms. Walstad says she has had problems with iron rich soils. Also, I don't have any experience with ecocomplete, but most just use plain gravel over the soil in NPTs. And, how thick is each layer of substrate?

There is also a recent thread "Mysterious White Cloud" that you might want to read through.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

melauriga said:


> I'm not sure what the rich red mineralized soil is, but given that it is red maybe it has a high iron content? In The Book Ms. Walstad says she has had problems with iron rich soils. Also, I don't have any experience with ecocomplete, but most just use plain gravel over the soil in NPTs. And, how thick is each layer of substrate?
> 
> There is also a recent thread "Mysterious White Cloud" that you might want to read through.


Yeah I read the thread on the cloud.

Ive gone drastic experimental now, since every minor disturbance of the substrate caused mass clouds Im going to disturb the entire substrate so that all the brown crap comes into the water.

Ive got a hose running into the tank and used a hose, sucked water through and its siphoning from the bottom of the water while the hose adding to the top. there was a lot of gas and foam when I first disturbed it all so I think it might be a good thing to get rid of it all even if it means the water change from hell, taking photos...see where this goes

Plan is to get most of the water particles out and then once its cleared out recap the substrate and let it sit.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Heres the tank after I played in the mud lol, looks a lot like the water where the soil came from where I live.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

And heres after a few hours of draining and filling....I notice the very light particles are mostly gone as the tank clears up after being disturbed in half an hour or so, which means its mostly heavy mineral particles i think. Also notice a lot of the substrate has gone, mostly likely from the soil and I am left with a red/brown heavy soil.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I would expect a little turbidity with a clay soil. Your soil mixture sounds reasonable. No problem, but where are the plants?

You want to get plants growing well right from the start. Soil releases massive amounts of nutrients within the first 3-4 weeks. The goal is to get plants growing well beforehand. If not, you need to wait 8 weeks when the soil stabilizes. See my book, pp 130-131.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> I would expect a little turbidity with a clay soil. Your soil mixture sounds reasonable. No problem, but where are the plants?
> 
> You want to get plants growing well right from the start. Soil releases massive amounts of nutrients within the first 3-4 weeks. The goal is to get plants growing well beforehand. If not, you need to wait 8 weeks when the soil stabilizes. See my book, pp 130-131.


Firstly I'd have to just say money is the reason I dont have plants yet, since I'm fairly new to this method I dont want to go sacrificing them for no good reason.

Even though the soil may release nutrients, it was releasing so much of whatever it was that the plants would die from lack of light.

I have more time than I have money, so I will keep doing the way I am and see how it goes, plan is to continue draining today, as there was still a bit left of the dirty water after I let it sit overnight (white cloudy), then I will rinse the rest of my gravel and cap my substrate and try not to disturb it again.


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## Tominizer (May 13, 2009)

You're trying to, at the end of the day, achieve a balanced system. The substate and water alone will not do this. 

From my experience, a number of fish shops in my area do have sales every week on plants........... couple bucks each sort of thing. Maybe check into that................. it's important to get the plant material in right off the bat if I'm understanding the process properly.......... and the nice part about it is you actually want the cheapo plants ............... not the expensive hard to grow stuff.



Good luck !!


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Here is the tank with the recapped gravel and a few plants that I had left over in...I think they are amodea or something like that but since putting them in the tank around 12pm I can see around .5 cm of new growth and bubbles on the plant leafs so I think they like it in there, heater is in and temp is set to 26C. I haven't got PH, nitrate, nitrite etc tests yet, but I might be able to get some tomorrow, all depends on cash.
If I knew what chemicals they used to test PH such as potassium dichromate or something I can probably nick it from the uni lab instead of paying something ridiculous for a simply reagent.


Getting some more plants tomorrow, I know they have java moss, going to rubber band some to an ornament and hope that it carpets it. Might grab some java fern as well as they are reasonably sturdy in my experience.


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## clearleaf (Oct 4, 2008)

bromothymol sulfone phthalein for the pH, though at this point pH doesn't matter too much I think. I believe java mass and java fern, while both *sturdy* plants, are not exactly fast growing plants. I would get more of that 'amodea' you have there (looks like some kind of cabomba or maybe limnophilia - either way with light and such it should grow quick) before I picked up java fern or java moss. Or some hornwort (which is always cheap) or hygro or stemmy plants like that. But I understand when funds are tight. With the slower growers, though, they might not be able to outcompete the algae for nutrients at the stage your tank is in, then die off anyway.

If the water goes cloudy again, just maintain your lighting schedule and it will settle down over a few days (or over a week, considering the size of the tank/substrate). Sometimes too big of a waterchange might just 'resets' the nitrifying bacteria, leaving it alone will give your filter media enough time to colonize and deal with the clouds of bacteria on its own.


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## kimcadmus (Nov 23, 2008)

Eco-complete states on the package something to the effect of not using to cap other (especially old) substrate. Eco has a range of partical sizes and over time the small particles are meant to settle toward the bottom while the larger stay on top.

Regarding getting plants cheap or possibly even free.... you may investigate a local or regional aquatic plant club. Not sure where you are located (not in your signature) but our club policy here in Dallas is to trade and give plants for free. There are often RAOK posts in the "for trade/sale section" of this forum.

Good luck


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Jesse2504 said:


> Here is the tank with the recapped gravel and a few plants that I had left over in...I think they are amodea or something like that but since putting them in the tank around 12pm I can see around .5 cm of new growth and bubbles on the plant leafs so I think they like it in there, heater is in and temp is set to 26C. I haven't got PH, nitrate, nitrite etc tests yet, but I might be able to get some tomorrow, all depends on cash.
> If I knew what chemicals they used to test PH such as potassium dichromate or something I can probably nick it from the uni lab instead of paying something ridiculous for a simply reagent.
> 
> Getting some more plants tomorrow, I know they have java moss, going to rubber band some to an ornament and hope that it carpets it. Might grab some java fern as well as they are reasonably sturdy in my experience.


For the moment, I would put money into more plants rather than test kits. Its encouraging that your new plants are growing and that you are getting more. Garden supply stores might have plants for ponds (Elodea, Val, Sagittaria, Frogbit, etc) that might also work well in this aquarium.

Water cloudiness will decrease as soil bacteria spin their polysaccharide "glue". However, this requires time-- and your patience.

This isn't the way I would set up a new tank, but you just might get lucky.  I've seen worse startups that turned out quite well.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Just an update with some more plants that Ive put in the tank:

You can see the old plant matter on the top of the old dirty matter which has been from the new tank growth. Also a pic of the seed pods?? that my water rose is opening up, its also making runners to other plant sites.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Jesse2504 said:


> Just an update with some more plants that I've put in the tank:
> QUOTE]
> 
> Excellent!


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

What is the brown crap all over my plants?? it seems to be getting worse, like a brown kind of grit?


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## clearleaf (Oct 4, 2008)

Probably diatoms/brown algae, generally shows up in new tanks, and can be eradicated with partial water changes and otto's.


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