# Tannins and pH



## COQHRider (Feb 26, 2010)

Hello again everyone. I have successfully (so far) had my 10 gallon el natural (mostly) tank up and running for a little over a month. I know that's not long but I told myself if I didn't kill everything within a month I'd set up the 55 gallon. Anyway, the tank is cycled with regular checks of ammonia, nitrites and nitrites showing at 0. I've adjusted and stabilized the pH to a tolerable 7.8 using driftwood and peat. There are 9 small fish and two ramshorn snails living happily with a good number of plants.

The tannins have discolored the water to a very dark brown. I can still see through the back of the tank but it's difficult for me to tell if the water is at all cloudy or if my plant leaves are having issues or if I'm just seeing the natural marking of the plants. I've never been a plant person. I'm still doing 20% water changes every few days and running a small filter with activated carbon to try to lighten the color of the water, although I don't think either is required for the health of the tank at this point. Now, on to my questions....

I've read about a product by Seachem called Purigen that will clear the tannins from the water. From what I've read on this forum and others there don't seem to be any adverse side affects from this product. Has anyone experienced something different than this using Purigen?

If I do, in fact, clear the tannins from the water am I defeating the purpose of the driftwood and peat to lower the pH or is having the driftwood and peat in the aquarium enough?

If I am defeating my purpose and I decide not to use Purigen I know that the driftwood will stop leaching tannins on its own in time. When this happens, will I have to replace my driftwood in order to get my pH back down?

Now, on to the 55 gallon. About a week ago I put in about an inch (maybe a hair more) of Miracle Grow Organic Choice potting soil and let it air over night. I then put in about an inch of small gravel and added a few inches of water and it sat for the last week until my plants arrived. Plants were planted yesterday and the tank was filled. The water had a slight green tint immediately after filling the tank. I added a single piece of the Malaysian driftwood from the 10 gallon and a small biowheel filter that had been run on the 10 gallon to help with cycling. I'm still waiting on additional driftwood to arrive next week. I tested the water after filling the tank and the ammonia extremely high at 3 ppm; much higher than when I filled the 10 gallon initially. Now, more questions.

Do you think the high level of ammonia was caused by my not removing the water that sat for a week and simply adding to it?

Since I'm doing fishless cycling should I simply add fish food and leave the water alone and do no changes allowing the high ammonia level to begin the process?

Any ideas about the green water? I have hornwort as a floating plant (it's more of a sinking plant right now) but I'm going to see if I can get some frogbit or duckweed as floaters.

Sorry about the book. I think that's it for now but I'm sure I'll have more questions as this process continues.

Thanks for your help!


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## COQHRider (Feb 26, 2010)

I've been trying to figure out how to insert photos but haven't figured it out yet. I'm sure there's a post somewhere explaining but I have to get going so for now I'll just give you a couple of links.

10 gallon:
http://picasaweb.google.com/sdmsears/10GalTank#5455649358420099330

55 gallon:
http://picasaweb.google.com/sdmsears/10GalTank#5455648358371791378


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Let the new tank go through its various cycles. Test the ammonia to be sure there is some showing, and this will feed the nitrifying bacteria. It may be several weeks or a month before this tank is ready for fish. Soil goes through some changes and lots of microorganisms are getting started now. Give them a chance to get stabilized. 
I would do water changes only if the nitrite (NO2) approaches 5 ppm. Nitrifying bacteria does not do well if the nitrite gets too high. I would add ammonia to keep it at 3 ppm for the nitrifying bacteria. The soil may do this itself, or may not. Test frequently. You can add fish food, if you want. It will add other nutrients that the plants may use, as well as the nitrogen that is used by algae, plants and many bacteria. You can do a fishless cycle with ammonia from a bottle (no perfumes or surfactants).

Established tank: With no nitrate showing, the plants are at the edge of deficiency. I try to keep the nitrate between 5-20 ppm just to be sure the plants have enough.

Tannins: Some driftwood produces a LOT of tannins. To reduce this faster you can boil the wood in several changes of water. It may still leach tannins, but not so much that you cannot see into the tank. IME peat moss does not add so much that you cannot see into the tank. Just a soft tint to the water. Purigen and Activated Carbon will remove tannins from the water. I am not sure what this will do to the pH. There may be other organic acids that are helping to lower the pH, and the removal of the tannic acid is not a big deal. Peat moss can also remove a small amount of minerals from the water, and might lower the GH and KH a bit. Gotta test this to be sure what is going on in your tank. 

pH issues. 
What is the KH and GH of the tap water? and of the tank water?
Within reason, plants do not much care what the pH is, as long as the minerals they need are present. 
Also, pH is not the most important test for fish. 

More important for both fish and plants are tests of the things in the water. 
GH, General Hardness is a measure of calcium and magnesium. Both fish and plants need these minerals. Soft water fish that are wild caught will not thrive in water where the GH is too high. Soft water species that have been bred in captivity for several generations are much better at handling a wide range of conditions, though they may still need low GH for breeding. 
KH, carbonates, alkalinity is a buffer that stabilizes the pH. If the KH is high you will have a hard time lowering the pH. If low pH is still your goal, then lower the KH, first, then see what that does to the pH. From that point you might add peat moss for the black water effect, the organic acids that many soft water fish thrive in. 

Do not chase pH.

Start by lowering the GH and KH, if that is what your fish really want. Or choose species that thrive in the mineral levels in your water. 
Hard water fish include many live bearers, many species of Rainbows and certain Cichids. Most fish will handle a wide range of conditions, as long as the conditions are stable.


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## COQHRider (Feb 26, 2010)

Hi Diana! Thanks so much for responding.

I'd read an article about fishless cycling and adding ammonia but hadn't ever tried it. I do plan on using that method (at least the fishless part) on the 55 gallon but I can't seem to find any ammonia without surfactants. I tested the water today and the ammonia was still at 3 ppm and the nitrates and nitrites had already started to rise so I'm on my way! I'll keep looking for the ammonia anyway.

The driftwood I have is fairly small so I was able to boil it a couple of times before putting it in the tank. Surprising how dark it still makes the water. I did end up springing for some Purigen today and am amazed at how much clearer the water is already. http://picasaweb.google.com/sdmsears/10GalTank#5456129148257671218 I also replaced the regular regular tank hood with a glass hood which lets more light in so the difference in the pictures isn't caused 100% by the Purigen.

I tested the pH before changing the filter media and again tonight and both readings were 7.8. I'll test again tomorrow to see if removing the tannins is having an unwanted effect. My tap/hydrant water (I'm on a well) tests at 8.8 or higher but 8.8 is the highest my high level test kit will read. I wouldn't so much say I'm chasing pH but more just trying to naturally lower it from 9! Before starting this process I decided I wanted to go with SA dwarf cichlids and smaller community fish. If I hadn't been able lower my pH I planned to go with African Cichlids but that's not really where my heart was.

Now...water hardness is something that still confuses me. Before I got started with all of this I took a water sample to my lfs to have the hardness tested. The guy there didn't even give me a number he just said the hardness was off the chart. So, I bought a test kit and brought it home to test for myself and chart any changes during the process. My numbers were not off the chart. Out of the tap the KH tests at a very obvious 10 or 179 ppm. The GH is more difficult for me because I can see a change in color to a very, very light green at 7/125.3 which confuses me because it's lower than the KH. Since I don't know much about hardness I don't know if this can be right...but it tests the same every time. Also, these numbers have not changed in the 10 gallon aquarium. So, can a KH of 10 really be that high if the pH dropped from 8.8 or 9 down to 7.8 and stabilized?

I know there are purists out there that will tell my my pH and hardness need to be lower in order to have the fish I want. But, I tend to agree with you that fish, especially captive bred fish, are very adaptable. I don't have any intention of breeding and my lfs is very good about labeling their wild caught fish and I do steer clear. So far my water parameters AND fish are doing very well.

Sooo...thanks again, Diana. I really do appreciate your advice. Any more you have for me would be great!


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## chad320 (Mar 30, 2010)

I use peat moss in one filter and carbon in the other. The peat softens the water but leaches tannins. the carbon takes the tannins out along w/other minerals also softening the water so I use ferts to put nutrients back into the water column. the tannins will dissipate with age also.


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

I think your soil is adding enough ammonia to cycle your tank. The level is probably higher than in your 10 gal. due to the volume of soil. I've done the fishless cycle in the past (before converting to NPT) and that was the level I brought it to-and it was hard to find plain ammonia. I would just add fishfood once the level starts to reach zero to keep feeding the bacteria and let the nitrite finish its cycle. 

I wouldn't worry about your GH or KH. They seem to be right where Diana Walstad recommends for the NPT.


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## COQHRider (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone! Dachewitt, you're right, it's impossible to find plain ammonia but I did see on another message board that someone found it at Ace Hardware. I'm going to make some calls today. My ammonia level had already started to drop significantly yesterday to .30. I added fish food last night and will continue throughout the cycle.

The single piece of driftwood I put in the 55 gallon is already beginning to tint the water brown so I can no longer see the green tint. Still not sure what that was since it wasn't thick like floating algae. Perhaps just a reflection from the green of the plants. I guess I'll just have to wait until this tank is established and stocked to see if it comes back and worry about it then.

Thanks again!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

COQHRider said:


> 10 gallon:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/sdmsears/10GalTank#5455649358420099330


ISTM your 10-gallon tank has too much tannins to the point of blocking much of the light. Plants will die due to not having enough light.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

GH of 7 degrees is just fine for captive bred soft water fish. Do not do anything to raise it, but also do not worry about lowering it. If you were going for wild caught fish maybe you would want to lower it. 
KH of 10 degrees is high enough that a pH in the upper 7s is about right. Not a problem.
If you find these dropping from peat moss or other, that is OK, too. They could be lower for the fish you want.

Tannins from the wood will go away with each water change, so if the plants are having problems, then a water change can help. This will also lower the ammonia, though, and starve the nitrifying bacteria you are growing. If you cannot find pure ammonia, then adding high protein fish food, or a shrimp or prawn from the grocery store will work. 

Weird that the store person would not tell you a number, but that is why it is better to have your own test kit! Never trust the people in the store!


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## Jark (Feb 6, 2010)

I have used the ace hardware ammonia and it worked great. I had also used the walmart ammonia with surfactants once. It made pritty bubbles. That didn't go soo well. Draining, scubbing, replacing gravel, rinsing... Crying.


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## COQHRider (Feb 26, 2010)

Yep, bartoli, I found I was having that problem but since using the Purigen and changing the hood the plants appear to be improving already. I only had the Purigen filter in for about 2 days before it was dark, dark brown. I pulled it out to regenerate it and replaced the carbon filter. The water still looks pretty good so I left the carbon filter in.

Jark, I found the Ace brand ammonia but there was no ingredients list. I decided not to take the chance on it because I wanted to avoid the crying part of this process if possible!  

I think I'll go with Diana's method of adding high protein food and possibly a shrimp to add ammonia. Thanks, Diana, for the suggestion and for the confirmation that my water parameters are okay. It definitely makes me feel better about what I'm doing.


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