# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Phosphate



## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

I May have an up and coming problem with Phosphate.

Did a water test of both the tank and the fresh water before addition to the tank.

My PO4 levels are upto 2.5

Am i going to run into problems?

If so what kind?

tamk setup 1 week ago. 2.2W/g, 
Fertlised to 0.1ppm Iron and traces. Potassium between 20 and 30
Pressurised Co2 at 25mg.l

Starting to grow BGA and what looks like thread algae on crypts , about 3" long, and waves around in water.

Have I too much phosphate for a healthy planted tank, or should i use some phosphate remover?

Cheers.

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

I May have an up and coming problem with Phosphate.

Did a water test of both the tank and the fresh water before addition to the tank.

My PO4 levels are upto 2.5

Am i going to run into problems?

If so what kind?

tamk setup 1 week ago. 2.2W/g, 
Fertlised to 0.1ppm Iron and traces. Potassium between 20 and 30
Pressurised Co2 at 25mg.l

Starting to grow BGA and what looks like thread algae on crypts , about 3" long, and waves around in water.

Have I too much phosphate for a healthy planted tank, or should i use some phosphate remover?

Cheers.

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Hi TJ, I wouldn't worry to much, you could do a water change though just incase!
Don't bother with the PO4 remover!

I have a feeling you have no nitrate, because of the BGA.

Try to get the NO3 up to 10ppm

good luck


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Picture of algae

My levels of No3 according to my Tetra test kit is about 10ppm.

2nd colour reading is 12ppm though.

I add 2ppm as default when colour gets like this.

Yellow 0 to 12
Orange 12 to 25

Thanks

Levels. 
Ph 6.7
KH 3
GH 8
NO3 aprox 10 to 12
PO4 2.5
K dosed 30ppm last saturday, nothing added since. (heard that K inhibits Calcium uptake so letting tank reduce by itself, then going to dose low amount every couple of days)

Iron around 0.1 mark, maybe touch higher.
Laterite and peat substrate

Mike

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2003)

That's not BGA, Rhizoclonium if it's unbranched.

SAE's, flagfish and a number of herbivores will eat it. You'd be good to do a few water changes, 50% etc each time and add fresh nutrients back.
But don't expect them to do all the work.

There's a few good places in the UK to order K2SO4, KNO3, and KH2PO4 along with some cheap Trace mixes.
On the other board, I saw your post. Look up "Wayne's" or my post on it. 

The K and Ca will have no interaction at this level which I've kept for many many years and so have many others.
That is plain rubbish at these levels, GH 8 and K+ at 30ppm.
I've kept ranges for several years at a GH of 24 anmd K+ at 50ppm.

My present tap has a GH of 5 and I add K to about 40ppm.

If I can grow about anything I want and even so called picky plants, I'd have to say there's not much to be said for K:Ca issues in plant aquariums at these levels and outside of the levels 2-3x either direction.

No one has seen issues attributible to this I know either and that's a lot of folks that have high K with low GH(5 or under).

This is where you'd see it more so rather than high GH and moderate low K.

You'd do better to add more CO2 till you have about 6.5-6.6 all light period long.

Add more K and more Traces.
Usde those 4 nutrients and re set your tank with 50% weekly water changes.

You should see pronounced increase in growth and health of the plants.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Tom.

Thanks for the reply.

I will try and give you as much info as i can on this matter so that you now have the correct facts.

I know you answered to me on another post, not to add in PPM scales. Add in ml.

This cannot be done in my situation since i have had my own mix made, and dependant upon the dilution rates, this will change the ml amounts that i need to add. This is why i asked the Question in PPm.

I found a Hydroponics supplier and acquired the following nutrients.

K2SO4
KH2PO4
KNO3

Iron HEDTA 3ml to 100L = 0.7mg/l Fe (red in colour - not good)

Iron and trace mix (EDTA) (1ml to 100L=0.7mg/l)

Ingredients in traces.(EDTA)

Fe = 0.7mg/l
Mn = 0.15 mg/l
Zn = 0.14 mg/l
Cu = 0.02 mg/l
B = 0.11mg/l 
Mo = 0.01 mg/l

1ml of solution to 100L will add the previous numbers.

I have mix a dose with Distilled water so that in my tank

62ml = 0.7mg/l ===== 8.9 per day
31ml = 0.35mg/l ===== 4.4ml per day
15ml = 0.18mg/l ===== 2.1 ml per day
7.7ml = 0.1mg/l ===== 1.1 ml per day

I am adding 2ml of solution every day which will give me just under 0.18mg/l of Fe over the week - what the plants uptake.

Every day I am adding 1ppm of Kno3
Every day i add 4ppm of K2SO4
I add 3ppm per week Magnesium. (epsom salts)

The algae (bacteria?) I am getting is of the same type, maybe a little thread algae in it sometimes.

It is horrible, slimey, and comes off extremely easily with fingers.
I smell like you've had your fingers up your arse. Bloody awful, and people even comment upon the smell on entering the room after removal of the stuff. Terrible stuff.

If i leave the lights off for a week or so, like the BGA trick, it all disappears, but it soon comes back again, when light are administered again.

I am keeping my Nitrates up, although there was a query about dividing the number by 4.4 for the No3 part of the Nitrogen, which really did confuse me, and i still am to be perfectly honest.

Well, i'm not sure if you need any more information.

The tank is a 50 US Gallon, of actual water.

Base Laterite
Silver sand above the laterite
Peat layer
Sand layer.
gravel layer.
top layer is very fine pea gravel

trying to keep Co2 in the 30mg/l range as much as possible, hard to adjust needle valve accurately enough for consistency.

Sorry to hassle you, but i am really struggling with this Algae (bacteria)?

Hope you can help.

Mike

I have posted some pictures on my website for your perusal so you can see the actaul damage.

algae bloom

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

I think you need to spend a few hours on that tank!
Here is what I personally would do,

1. take a credit card and scrape every inch of the inside of the glass (especially the back).
2. siphon out all of the crap you just scraped off even if it means draining 75% of the tank!
3. fill the tank back up
4. siphon on,around and over every plant until they are clean.
5. any leave that the algae didn't come off remove them.
6. clean the filter
7. fill the tank back up again.
8. turn off the lights and CO2? and cover the tank with a big blanket for 3 days.
9. after the 3 day blackout do another big water change.
10. add nutrients (NPK & traces)back and turn on the CO2 and lights.

It sounds like a lot of work but that is your best bet to get rid of the problem! IMO

Good luck

[This message was edited by ekim on Sat April 19 2003 at 02:58 PM.]


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

One additional comment, TJâI would suggest you get a different nitrate test kit. The Tetra kit is pretty much useless for low-range testing; itâs almost impossible to reliably differentiate between 0 and 12, let alone 5 and 10; itâs really not designed for the kind of information we need for our planted tanks. LaMotte is far and away the most accurate kit, but it is expensive. A cheaper alternative is the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit; as long as you follow the instructions exactly (and shake the ****ens out of the reagents), itâs pretty accurate and reads in 5 ppm increments, which gives you a much better idea of where you actually are.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2003)

Do the three day blackout as described above but add KNO3 after the first water change before you turn off the lights for 3 days. Then do the 50%-75% water changes.

When you turn the CO2/lights back on and do the water change(50%) add the following:

KNO3 => 1/4 teaspoon(1.5-2grams)
K2SO4=> 1/2 teaspoon
PO4= well you have enough for now, maybe later
Trace mix: 10mls 

Do the dosing 3x a week as above except only add the K2SO4 after a water change only.

This will yield good results and free you from adding stuff daily. You will not gain anything from dosing daily vs 2-3x a week.

You will gain from dosing 2-3 times a week vs weekly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## wetmanNY (Feb 1, 2003)

*The K and Ca will have no interaction at this level which I've kept for many many years and so have many others.
That is plain rubbish at these levels, GH 8 and K+ at 30ppm.
I've kept ranges for several years at a GH of 24 anmd K+ at 50ppm.*

Ignorant as I am, I would never mix together GH, or degrees of general hardness and compare them to parts per million. Potassium is famously hard for an amateur like me to measure with any accuracy. I wonder how you're all establishing these figures.

I do know the difference between rubbish and malarkey. But I would never compare them.

[This message was edited by wetmanNY on Tue April 22 2003 at 12:17 AM.]


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Ekim -- I took your advice straight away, and did what you recommended.

Well if you read the topic of the week, It went a little literally, The tank ended draining itself while i was on the phone, all over the upstairs floor. read other post.

Vicki --- I agree. I dont like the Tetra kit.

Although we cant buy lamotte here, Only ones i've ever seen are the hagan (useless) and tetra. I have seen the SERA somewehere , although expensive, i think i'll purchases one of these. If OK with you?

TOM -- Done another 50% W/c before i caught this post, Still in blackout mode and added some KNO3. Still a little on Lileopolis.

Most of that i threw, just kept a few strands, hopefully to keep alive.
(I only allow room light to enter during feeding time - no lights in tank)

WetmanNY --- I am adding most of the nutrients dry like the K, So i use a measuring spoon, therefore i know exactly how much I am adding.

With the KNO3, Traces and other mixes, I mix certian amount with Pure water, and each ml represents so many ppm etc, Thats why i know how much i am adding.

Although its another fact, That i dont know how much the plants are using.

Thanks all for advice in this matter.

This is the 4th blackout in 6 months with the same problem. I Think i have have too slow a circulation also, using an eheim 2235 600lph filter and (ekims design) reactor stuck on the output.

I have bought a Fluval 403, 1200lph, so I have filled it up with Biomedia, and going to use this for extra biomass and high water flow via a spraybar. Should help i think cause i gather that BGA like slow flow area.

Any ideas where i should position the spraybar.

Tank = 40" * 18" * 18" for reference...

Cheers
Mike

23/4/03 ---- Update.

Today i have found and purchased the API No3 test kit.
Just wondering with the people that use this.
Can you make the test kit last twice as long by using 2.5ml and 5 drops of each soution, and keep the accuracy ?

Cheers.

They can hide, but they cant escape

[This message was edited by TJ on Wed April 23 2003 at 11:58 AM.]


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2003)

A GH of 8 corresponds to the German degrees that folks are more use to measuring than the ppm levels which are far more commonly used for discussions about K+. K+ has no bearing on GH.
If you'd like Ca measurements in ppm I'll be happy to give them. The levels where from 30ppm to 440ppm Ca++. Lamott test kit. K+ was measured using a lamott test kit, about +,- 10ppm in the range I used(20-60ppm).

No issues nor anyone I know of in the SFBAAPS club that have been using the ranges I have suggested for folks for oh....about 8 years.

So unless you have some real proof that is counter to everything I have seen and about 20 other folks whom I also know well that also have good kits plus a large number of folks I have helped over the years, I say Rubbish once again

Show me this K/Ca interaction please. According to these people(Who are they BTW?), why don't I have this problem and so many other folks don't also then?

Where's __my__ inhibition please? According to this notion I should have inhibition.

This is same deal as the "PO4 causes algae" folks. They blame something on the wrong suspect or cannot control the parameters enough to make a good conclusion(as is very very often the case). 

Who the heck has been saying this anyway as if it's a problem in our plant aquariums?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2003)

To get rid of this, follow my above suggestions for algae control.
It's pretty easy to get rid if you prune good also. It'll get into Riccia sometimes.

I often will trim about 50% of the tank, then do a 50% water change and repeat the other side the next week.

Picking on each stem you replant can help, shaking it in water, wiping off any algae etc. Then replanting and making sure there's good nutrients etc in the tank. 

Here's the routine I'd suggest:
50% weekly water changes
K2SO4 1/2 teaspoon roughly 3~3.5 grams after water change.
KNO3 1/2 teaspoon 2x a week
KH2PO4, not needed right now and may be present in your tap water(call them to see)
Traces, add around 10mls 2x a week or 6-7mls 3x a week.

Crank the CO2 to 20-30ppm all the time the lights are on.

Don't slack on the CO2. Nothing else works right unless you get that part right.

Now keep this rather simple routine up and you should beat the algae back in a week or so. Add herbivores for icing on the cake.Better them than you.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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