# Sticky  Estimative Index Dosing Guide



## John N.

*Overview*
The Estimative Index (EI) coined by Tom Barr is a straightforward method for providing nutrients for a planted tank. The idea behind EI is simply introducing an excess amount of nutrients within an aquarium, throughout the week. This excess of nutrients floods the water column and feeds the plants. This is an estimative method; measuring specific nutrient uptake rates is not necessary and no test kits are involved. EI provides a surplus of nutrients that helps to prevents plant deficiencies, and allows plant growth to out compete algae growth.

The process of which this is done is simple. Each day fertilizers are dosed, and the nutrients are absorbed by the plants. With this method being estimative, we can dose fertilizers according to general guidelines suited for our particular setup (see below). At the end of the week, one performs a 50% water change to 'reset' the nutrient load in the entire system. And then the entire dosing schedule is repeated.

The primary fertilizers are the macro nutrients - Nitrogen (N), Phosphorous (P), Potassium (K), and the micro nutrients - trace elements (Plantex CSM+B, Flourish). Iron (Fe) can also be supplemented if necessary.

The Estimative Index method works best for a high light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to lower light setups, smaller quantities of fertilizers should be dosed in those instances.

*General Dosing Guideline for High Light and Well Planted Aquariums *
_(wolfenxxx)_

*10- 20 Gallon Aquariums*
+/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

*20-40 Gallon Aquariums *
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

*40-60 Gallon Aquariums*
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

*60 - 80 Gallon Aquariums*
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ¼ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ¼ tsp (20ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

*100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium *
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

*Note: *K2SO4 is not required for dosing unless you need the extra Potassium (K). This K is found in KN03 and KH2P04. Dosing these two according to above will yield sufficient K levels. Therefore, one will be fine dosing only KN03 and KH2P04, and Plantex. If one needs to increase their K levels with K2S04, add the same measured amount as KH2P04. For example, if one is dosing 1/2 tsp of KH2P04, then dose 1/2 tsp of K2S04. In true regards to EI, added excess K is not detrimental in any event.

*EI target ranges*
CO2 range 25-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5

*Where to buy fertilizers?*
AquariumFertilizers. com could have provide you with the necessary chemicals for dry and liquid dosing of the above but is out of buisness. For micro - trace elements, Plantex CSM+B, Seachem Flourish, and Tropica AquaCare are equivalent to each other. Drsfostersmith and bigalsonline for the Seachem and Tropica brands.

One Pound of each of Aquarium Fertilizer/Greg Watson's Chemicals will last at least 1 year:
Plantex CSM+B​Potassium Nitrate KN03​Monopotassium Phosphate KH2P04​Potassium Sulphate K2S04 _(optional)_​
*Special Notes:*

Providing optimal CO2 levels of at least 30 ppm are necessary for plants to prosper and out-compete algae. If algae issue arise, remove all visible algae and infected leaves. Recheck CO2 levels, and possibly reduce and adjust the lighting period.

Direct dry dosing into the tank is perfectly fine. Many dosing straight into the tank, or they dissolve each chemical in water before adding.

Making a Liquid Stock of Plantex CSM+B is more often mixed into a bulk liquid solution since some find it more convenient to dose their trace elements this way. The recipe for this solution is 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex. This solution is stored in refrigerators to prevent mold from forming within the container.

Small dosing teaspoons (smidgen, dash, pinch) can be found at Linen & Things, Bed Bath and Beyond, Wal-Mart, dollar stores, eBay and other online retailers. To identify the specific measurements of your smidgen, dash, pinch set, a 1/8 tsp should fill a ¼ tsp in 2 tries, 1/16 tsp in 4 tries, and a 1/32 tsp in 8 tries.

*Stick to a good dosing regime and your plants will flourish!*


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## wannabescaper

Great overview! I'm sure I'll be referencing this thread often . . . . very simple to understand. I especially like the target levels and the dosing schedule table!


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## MrSanders

just wanted to ask, I see that you added doseing of K2SO4, where on the barrreport Tom doesnt recomend that, and says that in most all cases you get more than enough K from the KNO3.

I have been doing EI for a while now, and have checked CO2 over... and over.... and over again..... I have tried MANY different ratios of this and that which are supposed to be best.... with still less than desirable outcome. Fianally after reading through some other post and looking at the history of problems I have had, which have been the same all through this time of trying different ratios of Ca to Mg and adding more Iron than should ever be needed to try to get new growth to come in a nice green. I decided that maybe.... just maybe I didnt have enough K and that was my problem. So i started adding more 3x a week similar to what you have suggested. 

This was a few days ago and its still to soon to tell if this is going to help things at alll but I am excited to see if maybe I have fianally gotten to the bottom of things and can start growing healthy plants. So i was just curious to see the reason behind recomending the extra dose of K2SO4? have you found that in some situations K from KNO3 to not be enough?


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## Laith

Excellent overview!

I'd just like to add a point about the water changes/resetting the tank. If you change 50% of your water once a week, you will *never* have more than a maximum of twice your weekly dosing of fertilizers. And that's without taking into account plant uptake.

For example, if you dose 3mg/l (ppm) of NO3 a day, or 21mg/l a week, your NO3 levels should never reach more that a maximum of 42mg/l. Add in what the plants can use up and the amount will be lower. If they do go above the 42mg/l in this example, you don't have enough light/CO2/plants or you're overstocked with fish.

So obviously if you change less than 50% of the water once a week, or wait longer between water changes, the "reset" aspect will vary and you should adjust your dosing accordingly. I think that the dosages recommend above are based on 50% water changes...


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## BryceM

Thank you John! Very nice summary of where to start with EI doses. This has been needed in a concise format for quite some time.

People should realize that there are situations where the above doses may need to be modified. These might include (but are not limitted to) higher than normal levels of nitrates or phosphates in your tap water, a very heavily stocked tank - especially with heavy feedings, or if you routinely go longer than a week between water changes.

The above methods were developed for high-light, CO2 supplemented systems as John mentioned. Low-light or non-CO2 setups are MUCH less likely to become nutrient limited and you can get away with smaller doses and go longer between water changes.

Also, many people feel that a supplemental iron source is sometimes required, depending on the exact composition of your micros.


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## plantbrain

This is just one routine, it's not written in stone.

You can use less in many cases, you can dose 2x a week in some cases, some dose daily, some do water changes over long time frame, say once every 2 weeks, some do smaller water changes(the trade off is more possible build up/more deficiency potentially), some larger(better stability to the pre set dosings).


Adding K2SO4 will not hurt, but there might be some other factor involved besides K+ alone.

You can leave it, I have not used K2SO4 as a part of a routine for several years now, few would say my plants/tanks have K+ related issues in any way.

But I think it's unlikely the low K+ had any nbearing unless there was not enough KNO3 being added.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Elkmor

Here is one excel sheet that shows concentration during EI usage with simple graph and estimative part. You can change dosing amouts to see "what will happen if ..."

(It's not that sheet I posted last time, this sheet is much simpler.)


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## eklikewhoa

sorry if this is obvious but this is for dry dosing correct?


10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


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## John N.

That's correct, the measurements are made for dry dosing in teaspoons as described in the article. For liquid dosing of NPK, see the link provided above in the special notes section regarding liquid solutions. There is no difference either way in dosing methods; it's what is most comfortable and convenient for the user.

-John N.


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## eklikewhoa

quoted from rexgriggs site


> MIXING UP KNO3 AND KH2PO4 CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS.


what problems does that cause and when should each be dosed if you cant mix it?


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## turbomkt

Actually, KNO3 and KH2PO4 won't cause any problems. What you need to avoid are mixing KH2PO4 and your iron (Fe) source. The two will precipitate out in some cases.

Are you sure you saw that on Rex's site? I didn't find that phrase on there.


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## John N.

*Precipitate: KH2PO4 and Iron*

Mike is correct,


Adding KNO3 and KH2PO4 together will not cause problems. The above statement is mistaken when dosing in large bodies of water such as an aquarium. In small containers you might have an issue.

 Adding KH2PO4 and Fe (from traces) can cause a precipitate (white powder) to come out of solution. This chelated iron precipitate is now no longer available to the water column, and must now be taken up from the roots where the powder will settle.

Mixing macro elements and trace elements in the same bottle forms a highly concentrated and volatile solution of chemicals in a small amount of water (500ml). This could result in precipitation, cloudy and ineffective mixtures. That's why we shouldn't mix the chemicals together in a small container.
* Bottom line with dosing together:* When dosing the chemicals (macro and micro) in our aquariums together, you won't have a problem because they are now in a very diluted solution. However to prevent any precipitation (cloudiness), we can dose macro and micros on off days so that each are consumed before the introduction of the other.

-John N.


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## morta_skuld

will it also precipitate when traces and iron is mixed with kno3?

I had time to see the fertilator and im still digesting some of it hehehe. Anyway. can i put mgso4 and caco3 every time i put the macro. Or i will dose it on a different occasion say once or twice a week? Just a newbie question.


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## turbomkt

Fe and KNO3 should be fine. As for MgSO4 and CaCO3, what are your goals? You should be fine adding it with water changes and that's it.


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## nswhite

Wow this is a very good thread. Short and sweet and straight to the point.


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## eklikewhoa

here's a link to rex's site and its in bright red at the bottom where he states the above. Rex's Guide to Dosing Dry Ferts


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## turbomkt

Ahhh. Guess what I think he means there...

If you confuse KNO3 and KH2PO4, you can have problems. Basically you could end up with extremely high PO4 levels and next to no NO3. That would be a recipe for disaster as your tank gets completely unbalanced.


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## BryceM

Or in other words, it's ok to mix them together, but don't mix them up.


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## morta_skuld

turbomkt said:


> Fe and KNO3 should be fine. As for MgSO4 and CaCO3, what are your goals? You should be fine adding it with water changes and that's it.


thanks man!


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## eklikewhoa

so you are not suppose to mix fe with kh2po4 but seachem's suggested dosing chart suggest dosing iron everyday.

wouldnt the seachem products have the same problem with mixing iron and phosphates?


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## Laith

What you should not do is mix KH2PO4 and any Fe trace mix in a bottle in order to dose them together. The concentrations in the bottle will be such that the Fe and PO4 will combine (FePO4) and precipitate out.

However, adding each separately to a tank shouldn't be a problem as they will very quickly become very diluted. Using autodosing I dose both every day but just to be on the safe side they are dosed a couple of hours apart. I probably wouldn't have any problem dosing them within minutes of each other or even at the same time at different spots in the tank...


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## Squawkbert

2 notes 
- CaCO3 has limited solubility so you may want to pre mix it in a little hot water, then add it in w/ replacement water during a pwc.

K2HPO3 (dibasic potassium phosphate) is more readily soluble than the monobasic variety and it adds twice the K per unit. Drawbacks - may not be as readily available to everyone, pH is higher than for the monobasic. There is a "tribasic" out there, but it's even less common in labs etc., pH would be higher still and it's no more soluble than dibasic (if memory serves).


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## eklikewhoa

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## nos

Well let me see if i understand everything 

I'm used to liquid solution, litters and grams so i will use this units  and i will use Chuck's online calculator

I'm going to try EI in a 30 litter water tank (7.93 gallons) so will pick the 10-20 gallon example (off course i will reduce a little the fertilization, but thats a detail for now)

*10- 20 Gallon Aquariums*

+/- 1/8 tsp = *0.125 g* of KN03 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp = *0.15 g* KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

As i say i will make a 250 ml of KNO3 and 250 ml of KH2PO4 and i will fertilize 5ml 3x a week. So by my math:

*KNO3*
6.2 g for 250 ml = 0.51 ppm => 0.51 ppm * 5 = 2.55 ppm = 1/8 tsp of KNO3

*KH2PO4*
7.5 g for 250 ml = 0.7 ppm => 0.7 ppm * 5 = 3.5 ppm = 1/32 tsp of KH2PO4

Please let me know if this math is correct!

This is a simple example of what to do to convert dry ferts in solutions ferts


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## John N.

The goal is to have at least 5 ppms of Nitrate per dosage. So by increasing the KNO3 mixed in the 250 ml solution, we can get 1 ppm per 1 ml dosed.

*KNO3* 
12 g for 250 ml. 5 ml of stock solution dosed is 5 ppm of N, thereby hitting the target goal.

*KH2PO4*
Calculations above look good. However, instead of using the full 5ml dosage, only 2-3 ml 3x a week is needed.

-John N.


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## nos

Tanks very much, i will try it


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## ocdiscus

Ok guys... I have a 160 gallon aquarium that is planted and I want to try EI dosing. I am completely new to the EI dosing scene and want to know what I should buy from Greg Watson's, and what would be a good dose amount and how often? 

THx


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## hoppycalif

Assuming you have average tap water, you need KNO3 and KH2PO4. You also need a source of trace elements, which can be Greg Watson's CSM+B or it can be a commercial trace mix, such as Flourish. Your big tank will go through commercial trace mixes pretty fast, so CSM+B would be the best idea. Assuming you have about 300 watts of PC quality light with good reflectors, I would start by dosing 2 tsp KNO3 3X per week, 3/4 tsp KH2PO4 3X per week, and 1/2 - 3/4 tsp CSM+B (dosed dry) 3X per week. If you have much lower light than 300 watts, I would cut down to 2X or less per week. If your water has a low GH, or little or no Mg component of the GH I would dose Greg Watsons Barr GH builder too.


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## Laith

ocdiscus said:


> Ok guys... I have a 160 gallon aquarium that is planted and I want to try EI dosing. I am completely new to the EI dosing scene and want to know what I should buy from Greg Watson's, and what would be a good dose amount and how often?
> 
> THx


http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...zing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html


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## Laith

Sorry, I just realized I referenced this same thread... Not enough coffee that morning...  

For a 160g you could start out with the dosing suggested for a 100-135 gallon tank. Watch the plants and adjust accordingly. Assuming 140g of water in your tank, that dosing will give you almost 10mg/l of NO3 per dose and just over 3mg/l of PO4 per dose. You could even start out with slightly lower PO4 dosing.


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## projectile

best overview i have seen of EI , thanks a lot


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## ezeke1

Good stuff, thanks for the guide!


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## Stealth

John N. said:


> *EI target ranges*
> CO2 range 25-30 ppm
> NO3 range 5-30 ppm
> K+ range 10-30 ppm
> PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
> Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
> GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
> KH range 3-5


These ranges, are they weekly totals?

Using the suggestions higher up in the post, in a 50 gal I get
25.27ppm NO3 a week
7.74ppm PO4 a week and
19.11ppm K a week assuming zero plant uptake.

So that puts NO3 & K in the right range, but PO4 nearly 6ppm too high. I realize that Toms point is excesses are ok if there is nothing lacking but this seem excessive when reduced KH2PO4 can be dosed and adding K2SO4 to make up for the loss in K.

I am I reading it right that there is too much PO4 according to the listed target ranges?


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## John N.

As you noted, the ppms per week represent the chemical accumulation without any plant uptake or consumption. Of course zero uptake is not what happens in our aquariums. The wide ranges listed above describe the daily totals with uptake that can happen through the course of a weekly dosage. What does that mean? 

Plants consume a good amount of the nutrients in high light situations each day, however they can't eat all of it! From day one, the nutrient load climbs into the upper excess tiers by the end of the week. The 50% weekly water change flushes the system so that the levels are then reduced. 

The more debated day to day range can be denoted as:

CO2 range 25-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-15 ppm
K+ range 10-15 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm

-John N.


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## Stealth

Thanks for your reply. I understand what you are saying, but can't understand why all the levels are within the suggested targets except the PO4. As these are assuming zero uptake, is it assumed that the plants will consume PO4 faster than the other levels and so these excessive levels won't be seen?


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## John N.

PO4 is dosed in low quantities and also consumed in low quantities, whereas the other chemicals have a wider range and wider range of consumption values. It can be stated that 3ppm of PO4 dosed between day 1 and the next dose on day 3 will be consumed to its depletion. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you, but I'm sure there will be a better explanation than mine coming along.

-John N.


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## mhoy

Thanks for the abundant amount of information. Now to digest it all and figure out what I need to do for my tank.


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## latchdan

If dosing flourish comp instead of CSM+B how much would i add for a 20-40 gallon tank? Also would i want to add flourish iron on which day? i have a 37 gallon tank


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## John N.

For both Seachem Flourish and Iron, dose according to the directions on the bottle. Dose both on the micro element dosing days, and do the 50% waterchange at the end of the week as normal. 

-John N.


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## latchdan

ok i will give it a try thanks for the clarification


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## jdmstop

I have a 5 gal tank. Now How much will i have to dose as far as the table spoon goes? how do i convert tsp to Gram, i have a neat little scale that can measure gram by 0.01, so i like to just use my scale. Thanks in advance!


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## hoppycalif

jdmstop said:


> I have a 5 gal tank. Now How much will i have to dose as far as the table spoon goes? how do i convert tsp to Gram, i have a neat little scale that can measure gram by 0.01, so i like to just use my scale. Thanks in advance!


One of the premises behind EI is that the exact amount of fertilizers dosed isn't at all critical. Everything is estimated. The easiest way to do a small tank like a 5 gallon is to get a bottle, say a 500 ml bottle, with a 5 to 20 ml cap. Measure how much the cap holds. Then divide 500 ml by what a cap holds, and that is the number of doses per bottle. Now multiply that number of doses by the amount of each dose of each macro fertilizer, and add that much to the bottle. Fill with water and shake it up good. Then dose a capful every other day or 3 times a week. Do the same for the micros. If you want to play with the gram scale, measure out a teaspoon and weigh it. That tells you how many grams each 1/8th, 1/4 etc. tsp is.

A variation of this, and what I use, is to take the total weeks dosage (3 times what each of the above doses is). Divide that by 7 and multiply by the number of capfuls in a bottle. That will be the amount to add when you want to dose the same every day, 7 days a week. You can dose the macros and micros on the same day also - the doses are weaker and the precipitation problem with iron and phosphate becomes trivial. But, don't mix micros and macros in one bottle - the concentrations there are great enough to precipitate all of the iron out as sludge in the bottle.


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## jdmstop

Thank you hoppy for the response!  

I have couple of questions guys.

My tank setup is 50gal with AH supply 95watt kit running on compress co2 at about 2 bps


1. Since i started using CSM+B, my plants start to curl up.. then immediately I changed 50% of the water, and stopped using CSM+B and the plants seem to be doing better now. Is using seachem flourish better instead of the CSM+B?

2. Since I been using the EI index, being that its a planted/fishes tank, about 40 fishes, I find it pretty harsh performing the 50% water change every week. The 1st time I've done it, lost 2 fish right away. I've try to conditioned the water as far as matching the temperature and adding water conditioner, but death still happened. Can anyone provide some suggestion?

Thanks all


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## hoppycalif

I have always found that my fish enjoy the water changes, being more vigorous and active after such a change than before. I use Seachem Prime to get rid of chlorine or chloramine if I do a big change. I don't know if all such conditioners are equally good. Oh, and I don't make a big effort to match temperatures either. During the cold months I mix hot and cold to get somewhat near the tank temperature, but in the hot months I just use cold water most of the time. It may be that some species of fish are more sensitive to water changes than mine.

I have used CSM+B for two years + now, without any problems that I can see. Were you dosing it dry or mixing with water? I use dry most of the time, but am now premixing so I can dose an easy to measure amount of liquid every day. Flourish may be a better trace mix, but not by a whole lot.

I now use a continuous water change system, so I only do big changes when I do major maintenance on the tank. That works extremely well for me.


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## jdmstop

hoppycalif said:


> I have always found that my fish enjoy the water changes, being more vigorous and active after such a change than before. I use Seachem Prime to get rid of chlorine or chloramine if I do a big change. I don't know if all such conditioners are equally good. Oh, and I don't make a big effort to match temperatures either. During the cold months I mix hot and cold to get somewhat near the tank temperature, but in the hot months I just use cold water most of the time. It may be that some species of fish are more sensitive to water changes than mine.
> 
> I have used CSM+B for two years + now, without any problems that I can see. Were you dosing it dry or mixing with water? I use dry most of the time, but am now premixing so I can dose an easy to measure amount of liquid every day. Flourish may be a better trace mix, but not by a whole lot.
> 
> I now use a continuous water change system, so I only do big changes when I do major maintenance on the tank. That works extremely well for me.


Hoppy, can you elaborate on the continuous water change system? for water condition, I used the NovAqua conditioner, and what do you recommend as far as test kit? so far i'm i have a drop checker ensuring 30ppm co2, ph test kit and GH/KH test kit. My fish are very healthy only when it comes in time of water change. I utilize the spill-free phyton kit, so basically water comes out and new water goes back in right away then i add the water conditioner after the tank is filled back up. Maybe is because this, my fishes are experiencing shock. However, using this spill free water exchange method is so simple and quick, and best of all, no mess in my carpeted room.


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## hoppycalif

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...cts/29066-continuous-water-change-system.html is the water change system I use now.

If you add the water conditioner to the half full tank before adding any new refill water it will protect the fish from chlorine/chloramine better.

The only test kits I have are GH, KH, pH.


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## zonhisham

My tap water is quite soft at 2dKH and my TE (Homegrown Hydroponics, Fe 7%, B 1.3%, Mn 2%, Zn 0.4%, Cu 0.1%, Mo 0.06%) does not have any Mg in it.

For a 100L tank, how much would I have to add CaCO3 (or CaCl2) and MgSO47H2O after a weekly 50% WC ? What is the target ppm for Ca and Mg? 

For the TE, since my tank is 100L, ie about 26g, I would add 1/16 tsp TE 3x a week. But what does the '5ml' is for when you wrote : '1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week' ? Does it mean to dissolve the TE in 5ml of DI and then pour the 5ml into the tank?


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## Homer_Simpson

zonhisham said:


> ....But what does the '5ml' is for when you wrote : '1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week' ? Does it mean to dissolve the TE in 5ml of DI and then pour the 5ml into the tank?...


You can do what Rex Grigg does. He mixes two tablespoons of Plantex CSM TE powder into 500 ml of distilled water and then doses 5-10 ml/20 gallons three times a week for a medium light tank.
http://www.rexgrigg.com/ferts.htm

You can also use a commercial TE liquid like Seachem Fluorish Comprehensive and dose 5-10 ml/20 gallons three times a week. However, in the long run a dry TE mix like Plantex CSM or comparable powder TE would be cheaper to dose.


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## bubuk

John N. said:


> *100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium *
> +/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp *(30ml)* Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change


Using Fertilator, I can see that 1/2 tsp of CSM+B will add 0.14 ppm Fe per dosage. And according to Fertilator's _Conversion of tbs/tsp/Dash/Pinch/Smidgen/grams_, 1 tsp is about 5ml. But referring to the above dosage by John N. , where does that 30ml (in braces) comes from?

Please advice. TIA.


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## ColdServings

Apologies if this has been covered and I just missed it, but is there any real reason not to use half the recommended amounts 6 days a week rather than the recommended amounts 3 days a week-- so long as you don't let strong concentrations of phosphate and iron mix.

It seems to me that that would be a simpler to keep track of.


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## hoppycalif

ColdServings said:


> Apologies if this has been covered and I just missed it, but is there any real reason not to use half the recommended amounts 6 days a week rather than the recommended amounts 3 days a week-- so long as you don't let strong concentrations of phosphate and iron mix.
> 
> It seems to me that that would be a simpler to keep track of.


There is no magic in dosing 3X a week, alternating between macros and micros, and letting the tank rest one day, then changing 50% of the water. You could have problems trying to dose a high light intensity tank only once a week - there is a good chance of running short of some nutrients that way. But, dosing daily, by dividing up the weeks total for each nutrient into sevenths, is a good way to do EI dosing. It also isn't necessarily bad to dose the iron containing micros the same day you dose the phosphate containing macros. The problem is when you mix those in a bottle so you can dose one pre-mix of all of the nutrients. Then the iron and phosphate will combine leaving an insoluble precipitate.

I have switched to the daily dosing method, using a premix of the macro nutrients, and one of the micro nutrients. I dose one at the right end of the tank and the other a few seconds later at the left end of the tank. My plants continue to grow.


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## Jeff.:P:.

Hello, 
I need some help here. I picked up some ferts from Greg Watson, and I'm switching over from the Seachem line (more control issue). I would like to get 16 oz. PUMP bottles and have these items pre-mixed. I purchased a pound of the following; KN03, FE, K2S04, KH2P04, GH Builder, CSM+B Plantex. 

How much would I need to pre-mix with a 16 oz. bottle for EI schedule below? Also can I mix any of these items together or do I need individual containers for each fert.? Then once I have it all mixed-up how many pumps a week would I need to do? (is that dependent on how much volume the pump dispels?) 

A kick in the right direction would be excellent.  

Thanks for the help in advance..

p.s. would it be easier if I used a different sized bottle for the pump (i.e. 8 oz. , 32 oz. ?)


1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
5ml Trace 3x a week 
1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week

EI target ranges
CO2 range 25-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-


----------



## hoppycalif

One of the best bottles to use for premixed fertilizers is the type Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid comes in. You just squeeze the bottle to fill a small chamber at the top with the number of ml's you need, then pour the liquid in that chamber into the tank. Mine is marked at 10, 15, 20, 25 ml, and I dose 20 ml a day. So, the bottle contains 250 ml of fluid, and I dose 20 ml a day, so the bottle contains 12.5 doses in it. Multiply 12.5 doses times the amount of fertilizer per dose and add to the bottle, then fill the bottle with water. You can mix everything except the iron and traces in one bottle, and the iron and traces in another bottle.


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

Thanks kindly. 

I'm in the process in finding a 500ml bottle to simplify my mixing. Once I figure out how much volume the pump will deliver I think I'll be able to figure how much to pre-mix and how often to dose.  I hope.

Once pre-mixed do all of them need to be refrigerated?


----------



## ColdServings

Question about the solubility of the dry ferts. I'm thinking it would be convenient to mix the fertilizers into three batches of liquid for dosing: N, PK, and Trace. (I want N separate because the tank will already have a major source of "N" in the 4-5 goldfish the tank will eventually house.)

The question, basically, is whether the dry ferts are sufficiently soluble so that a 5 or 15 ml dose (the sizes measuring spoons I have convenient and dedicated to aquarium use) can contain the daily dose of each of the three mixes appropriate for the 55 gal tank. That way, I just dump in one spoonful each of three mixes daily. Easy to keep track of and no confusion about "what's scheduled for today, and which spoon for which fert."


----------



## hoppycalif

I dosed 15 ml per day of premix for a few months, and had no problem with dissolving the chemicals for a 45 gallon tank. So, a 30 ml dose could obviously be set up with no problem for a 90 gallon tank. And, I suspect you could use an even smaller daily dose. The NPK part of the nutrients is inorganic so it will last forever without refrigeration. It is only the chelators that are organic, and they are only in the trace mix.


----------



## ColdServings

Thanks. I'll probably use up the seachem until it's gone then go with the dry ferts from the source listed at the very beginning of this thread, mixed up into small set of nice, simply dosed, solutions.


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

> So, the bottle contains 250 ml of fluid, and I dose 20 ml a day, so the bottle contains 12.5 doses in it. Multiply 12.5 doses times the amount of fertilizer per dose and add to the bottle, then fill the bottle with water.


So if I convert every (tsp dosage to ml and multiply by three)/7 is that my dosage ml per day? 

I'm just trying to find out how you came up with the 20ml per day dosage. 
Note: I will be using a 500ml bottle for each fert, trace.

1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
5ml Trace 3x a week
1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week

I think my only problem (once I figure out my solution portions) will be now is finding a pump that will give me a small amount of ml on each pump.


----------



## hoppycalif

Jeff.:P:. said:


> So if I convert every (tsp dosage to ml and multiply by three)/7 is that my dosage ml per day?
> 
> I'm just trying to find out how you came up with the 20ml per day dosage.
> Note: I will be using a 500ml bottle for each fert, trace.
> 
> 1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> 1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
> 1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
> 5ml Trace 3x a week
> 1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week
> 
> I think my only problem (once I figure out my solution portions) will be now is finding a pump that will give me a small amount of ml on each pump.


You are correct about figuring out the daily dose starting with the 3X per week dose. The amount of each dose depends on being sure it is big enough to dissolve all of the stuff you want in it, and something you can easily measure, either as a per squirt, or per capful, or per syringe full. There are pump bottles available, so you would just have to measure how much one pump gives, and use that as the per day quantity, unless that is too small to dissolve all of the ferts. In that case, use two pumps per dose.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

For Liquid EI Dosing, you may also find this useful. Straight from Tom Barr the father of EI Dosing.
http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...accuracy-want-daily-pmdd-style-ei-dosing.html


----------



## Left C

This plan that HS linked works well for me, but I only use 50% of the recommended amounts.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Left C said:


> The Barr plan that HS linked works well for me.
> 
> I use Tropica's Plant Nutrition _liquid_ for the trace nutrients and Equilibrium for the GH Booster.
> 
> I dose only 50% of the daily required requirements. This is 50% the recommended amounts of macros one day and 50% of the micros the next.


Of course I should give credit where credit is due. Left C was kind enough to first advise me of the link. Thanks as always Left C.


----------



## Left C

Thanks HS, but Tom Barr is the one that deserves recondition for this dosing plan.


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

Ahh thats pretty nice. Thanks guys. Only question is which is the trace and iron dosing schedule on there. Am I missing it? Is it the TMG? Thanks



> 60 grams KNO3
> 18 grams of KH2PO4
> 25 grams of GH booster
> 
> Add 12 mls daily.
> Add TMG at 2.5 mls daily.


----------



## hoppycalif

It is the TMG, now known as Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid. It could also be CSM+B, a cheap powdered trace mix.


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher

Are we trying to reach these target ranges by the end of the week?


----------



## Left C

You should try to always maintain those levels.


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

> You should try to always maintain those levels.


Gotcha. But if I'm using Chucks fert. calulator to figure amounts of dry powder to mix to make a solution, those target numbers should be the numbers I hit after 3 dosings? Right?

I'm trying to make a solution of each nutrient, so if I put in a certain number of tsp's it gives me a PPM for each ml of solution added. Once I get that PPM per ml of solution I can multiply that by the number of ml's (8ml-two pumps per dose) I want to add per dose then times 3 (3xweek). That number should be the target number.
Is this procedure correct? Just want to check before I start mixing and adding. :mrgreen:

Thanks in advance.

Jeff


----------



## Left C

Hi Jeff

The math gets a little complicated. See the math part in this original EI article: http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html

You may or may not end up with those parameters at the end of a week if you are just starting dosing.

As I understand it; for EI, you start a little lean and let the concentrations build up even though you are doing 50% weekly water changes. It might take a few weeks to reach those levels, but you shouldn't ever be over 2X the dosing amount ppm's when doing the weekly 50% water changes (from the math article above).

To be honest, I've practically quit testing. I've found that one of the tanks likes a little more potassium and another tank likes a little more phosphate and another tank likes less dosing.

In other words, all tanks aren't equal.

EI, EI Solution, PMDD, PPS, PPS-Pro, Seachem's recommended dosing, etc. all have to be tweaked a little, I believe. It depends on the many variables involved in each aquarium.

Left C


----------



## Left C

Jeff.:P:. said:


> Gotcha. But if I'm using Chucks fert. calculator to figure amounts of dry powder to mix to make a solution, those target numbers should be the numbers I hit after 3 dosings? Right?
> 
> I'm trying to make a solution of each nutrient, so if I put in a certain number of tsp's it gives me a PPM for each ml of solution added. Once I get that PPM per ml of solution I can multiply that by the number of ml's (8ml-two pumps per dose) I want to add per dose then times 3 (3xweek). That number should be the target number.
> Is this procedure correct? Just want to check before I start mixing and adding. :mrgreen:
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jeff


You can make dosing very involved and complicated or you can make it simple. I like to keep it simple. I believe that Tom Barr, Edward, Rex Grigg, Steve Hampton, Robert Hudson, Karen Randell and many others have refined things and made them much simpler than just a few years ago.

I would follow the EI, EI Solution, PPS-Pro etc. starting amounts and tweak them from there.

When I use EI, I dose dry. I don't bother with solutions. It's much easier. Rex has a guide on how to mix solutions if that's what you want to do. http://www.rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm

EI Solution and PPS-Pro have the amounts of each nutrient listed to make your solution. Again, you may have to tweak them a bit if you have hard water or high nitrate and/or phosphate levels in your tap water.

Do you have the links to these three main dosing plans? If not, let me know and I'll give them to you. Ah heck, here they are anyway.
PPS-Pro: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html
EI: http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html
EI Solution: http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...accuracy-want-daily-pmdd-style-ei-dosing.html

Good luck!

Left C


----------



## Homer_Simpson

I just bought some Tropica Master Grow to Experiment with as a TE mix. I want to test it on my 40 gallon where I am dosing EI dry. Would 5 ml of Tropica Master Grow 3 times as week for a 40 gallon be the correct measure for the trace. Thanks.


----------



## jazzlvr123

is it safe to dose EI in a very high light 25 gallon CRS tank?, the plant load is pretty good but i just don't want to have any nitrate spikes due to the excess of nutrients dosed to avoid deficiencies. Id rather have deficient plants than dead CRS : )


----------



## MartialTheory

Hey the picture for the 29 gal dosing on the first post isn't showing. Is there an alternate place to find that picture?


----------



## Left C

Homer_Simpson said:


> .


P.S. Never Make The Mistake Of Judging a Member by His/Her Avatar.

Wouldn't you look better in Jockey shorts instead of briefs?


----------



## Luis138

..


----------



## Kypros

I would love an example of the 29 gallon dosing regimen as well. Does anybody have a link to a 29 gallon dosing regimen. I am an idiot when it comes to chemistry to it would be a helpful guideline.


----------



## Kypros

Does anybody have any experience with EI with a less densely planted tank and a higher fish load? I am slowly building up my plant population (which does not seem to be what most people recommend) but like the ease of EI. I am thinking to do the one day a week macro dosing that is recommended for lower light situations, and maybe dosing a little less of the nitrates? does anybody have any experience with this. Also, EI seems to focus on the water column feeding. Should plants like Crypts still get root tabs, or can they adapt to the water column feeding?
thank you very much


----------



## hoppycalif

EI was designed for high light, CO2 injected, heavily planted tanks. When you adapt it for lower light, no CO2, and lightly planted tanks, you can't use the tables in the sticky. As I recall, the usual plan is to dose only once a week, and dose somewhat less than the dose recommended for 3 times a week. That also means you don't need weekly 50% water changes, but monthly would be more like it. By then it isn't really EI.


----------



## Kypros

thank you hoppy. I am adding Diy Co2 and excel and have 2 WPG. Would this change your analysis above?


----------



## hoppycalif

Yes, EI should work for you. If your planting density is low, just cut the amounts in half. "Root feeders", like almost all plants, absorb nutrients from the water too. Root tabs or a nutrient rich substrate are good, and they make it less critical when you forget to dose for a couple of days, but you can grow those plants with just water column dosing too.


----------



## torpedobarb

great article and really helpful


----------



## fastang80

Hi, do you really need to dose Ca and Mg if you have a GH value of 5-6? Thanks


----------



## hoppycalif

fastang80 said:


> Hi, do you really need to dose Ca and Mg if you have a GH value of 5-6? Thanks


Since GH doesn't tell you whether you have zero magnesium or a lot of magnesium, it can be desirable to dose magnesium even with a GH of 5 degrees. I can find out how much I have, on average, in my tap water from my water quality report. The report also gives the range of values that might exist throughout the year. Since, my range can hit zero, I dose some epsom salts to be sure I have magnesium in the water.


----------



## fastang80

Hi, I am currently dosing MgSO4+7H2O (Epsom salts) following the PMDD formula, but I am still confuse on the fact that if I dose Mg and no Ca wouldn't that cause a Ca deficiency due to excess Mg compare to Ca. By the way I have soft water 3 KH tap water and I am not sure on the GH because my AP test kit does not seem to work, I've added over 25 drops of the reagent and no change in color, the only results I have are from a test strip that showed around 80 ppm, but we all know how unacurate those test strips really are. I am about to purchase some KH2PO4 Phosphate the missing component on the PMDD formula and I wanted to be sure I did not need any CaCO3. I appreciate you input on the subject. Thanks


----------



## Kaieisis

the aquariumfertilizer website is not working.
Is there other sites to get fertilizers?


----------



## Kypros

I just checked this link and it works
http://www.aquariumfertilizers.com/

you can also order dry ferts from Rexgrigg.com

good luck


----------



## Kaieisis

Kypros said:


> I just checked this link and it works
> http://www.aquariumfertilizers.com/
> 
> you can also order dry ferts from Rexgrigg.com
> 
> good luck


Oh, you're right. When i type it in it liks correctly.

The link listed in the original post under "Where to buy fertilizers?," does not work.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

*I probably don't know what I'm doing?*

Something doesn't seem right with the EI dosing guides. For example:

For a 100 -125 gal tank
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week

When I use the fertilator and the values: 1 1/2 tsp KN03, 1/2 tsp KH2P04 and a 110 gal tank, I come up with these ppm increases:
NO3 11.49
PO4 4.69
K 9.18

Isn't PO4 way too high?

Also 1/2 tsp is only 2.5 ml not 30 ml? Isn't 30 ml of trace way to high?


----------



## hoppycalif

*Re: I probably don't know what I'm doing?*



ray-the-pilot said:


> Something doesn't seem right with the EI dosing guides. For example:
> 
> For a 100 -125 gal tank
> +/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 
> When I use the fertilator and the values: 1 1/2 tsp KN03, 1/2 tsp KH2P04 and a 110 gal tank, I come up with these ppm increases:
> NO3 11.49
> PO4 4.69
> K 9.18
> 
> Isn't PO4 way too high?
> 
> Also 1/2 tsp is only 2.5 ml not 30 ml? Isn't 30 ml of trace way to high?


The numbers for trace elements are 1/2 tsp if dosed dry, or 30 ml of a mix of trace mix in water. I don't remember what the "standard" mix in water is, since I never do that.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

*Re: I probably don't know what I'm doing?*



hoppycalif said:


> The numbers for trace elements are 1/2 tsp if dosed dry, or 30 ml of a mix of trace mix in water.


That make sense but the diluted formula calls for 3 tsp (1 tbl) dissolved in 250 ml.
That means adding 30 ml is too low:

3tsp/250ml x 30ml = 0.36 tsp.

I think you want to add 40 ml:
3tsp/250ml x 40ml = 0.48 tsp

I doubt this will make much of a difference.

Do you have any take on the PO4?


----------



## hoppycalif

*Re: I probably don't know what I'm doing?*



ray-the-pilot said:


> That make sense but the diluted formula calls for 3 tsp (1 tbl) dissolved in 250 ml.
> That means adding 30 ml is too low:
> 
> 3tsp/250ml x 30ml = 0.36 tsp.
> 
> I think you want to add 40 ml:
> 3tsp/250ml x 40ml = 0.48 tsp
> 
> I doubt this will make much of a difference.
> 
> Do you have any take on the PO4?


I didn't comment on the PO4 because I have been dosing about 1.5 to 2X the EI dosage on PO4 to help control GSA. From what I have been reading, there is nothing wrong with dosing 1/2 tsp for a 100 gallon tank. When you consider the range of tank sizes the dosages are given for, it is obvious that accuracy in dosing isn't important. Tom Barr always says these dosages are just starting points, and you can start reducing them a bit, watching for adverse results, reducing a bit more, etc. I don't do that because I haven't been good at keeping my plant mass nearly constant. The increased plant mass as the plants take off means you need more fertilizer anyway.


----------



## blang

I have a 90 gallon tall tank. It has a sump so that adds to the volumn of water. My lighting is 2.4 wpg but is actually less because of the depth of the tank. It is fully stocked with fish and probably has a medium load of plants. It has 1/2 Flourite/1/2 gravel. It is about 2 1/2 years old. I do have algae but it is not awful. The only plants that do well are crypts. I've used various fertilizers but recently switched to the EI method. 

1/2 tsp seachem equalibrium
1/4 tsp kn03
1/8 kh2p04
2 capful of Flourish excel daily

I do a 15-20% waterchange every three weeks which I really don't want to change.

Should I dose the nutrients twice a week? Are the amounts I plan to dose with a good starting point? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## hoppycalif

If you want to switch to the EI method you need to do so. Switching to that method means dosing more than the minimum of each nutrient, then doing about a 50% water change every week to avoid a too high build up of any of the nutrients. So, you should dose:
1 tsp of KNO3 three times a week
3/8 tsp of KH2PO4 three times a week, along with the KNO3
3/8 tsp of CSM+B three times a week on different days from the above dosing.

If you want to stick to 15-20% water changes every 3 weeks, you can't dose per EI. Then you need to look into PPS Pro as an alternative.


----------



## oregon aqua

hoppycalif said:


> If you want to switch to the EI method you need to do so. Switching to that method means dosing more than the minimum of each nutrient, then doing about a 50% water change every week to avoid a too high build up of any of the nutrients. So, you should dose:
> 1 tsp of KNO3 three times a week
> 3/8 tsp of KH2PO4 three times a week, along with the KNO3
> 3/8 tsp of CSM+B three times a week on different days from the above dosing.
> 
> If you want to stick to 15-20% water changes every 3 weeks, you can't dose per EI. Then you need to look into PPS Pro as an alternative.


One of the reasons i switched from E.I. that was working for me to PPS-Pro was i didn't have the time to do water changes on 4 tanks every week. and the buildup from skipping a wc gets pretty big. I have to say i was happy with E.I. but im even happier with PPS-Pro


----------



## blang

hoppycalif said:


> EI was designed for high light, CO2 injected, heavily planted tanks. When you adapt it for lower light, no CO2, and lightly planted tanks, you can't use the tables in the sticky. As I recall, the usual plan is to dose only once a week, and dose somewhat less than the dose recommended for 3 times a week. That also means you don't need weekly 50% water changes, but monthly would be more like it. By then it isn't really EI.


Thanks for the info on pps-pro. I am researching it now. The one think I don't like about it is the daily dosing so I need to think whether this will work for me.

I think your comment above is interesting. This is why I posted my original question to see if it could work with my setup. But I gather you would not recommend it????


----------



## hellohefalump

If my nitrates are already high (about 50) should I still add the KN03?


----------



## hoppycalif

hellohefalump said:


> If my nitrates are already high (about 50) should I still add the KN03?


If your nitrates are already high you should calibrate your nitrate test kit, by verifying that it gives the right concentration when checked against solutions with known concentrations of nitrate in them. Only then can you know that your nitrates are high.

50 ppm of nitrate in a well planted tank will be used up in less than two weeks, so unless you have a known continuous source of nitrates, such as a heavy fish load, you will still need to add nitrates.


----------



## lildark185

I just received my ferts and I'd like to know if my calculations are correct before I make my stock solution. I will be using a 750ml pump bottle which dispenses approx. 4.25ml each pump. This was measured by pumping once into a small vial which was then emptied with a 1ml pipette 4 times and a bit left over.

According to Chucks dosing calculator I should add the following:

KNO3: 54 tsp to the 750ml, each mL of which will add 1.19ppm of Nitrate x 4.25ml/pump = ~5ppm each day x 3 days= 15ppm

KH2SO4: 9 tsp to the 750ml, each mL will add .19ppm of Phosphate x 4.25ml/pump = ~.81ppm each day x 2 days = 1.62ppm

I will dose KNO3 on M,W,F and KH2SO4 & Micros on T,R, 30% WC on Saturdays and Sunday is time to kick back and watch the plants. 

Please let me know if this would work and if I would be able to mix all of that into a single bottle. Thanks in advance.


----------



## redtheinspector

Hi 
I am a bit confused by the EI mixing/dosing. I have KN03; K2S04, KH2P04 as well as FE chelate 10% and Barr's GH Booster. I want to mix & dose for 65 gallons of water. I have contacted the local water supplier and got the following info.
N03 - 2.2 ppm; P04 .024 ppm; K 2.7 I beleive the next step is to subtracted this amount from the mean taget range suggested by Tom Barr. I have also tested the water with new API kits. I have a PH of 7.6 with a KH reading of 6 and a reading of 5 for K . All other readings are zero 
Both tanks are filled with plants and some fish. 
More info..... I have been double dosing Excel for about a week to combat BBA. I expect to be on C02 in May of this year. I am also using seachem gravel fertilizers.

My problem ... now what do I do. This is a big challege for a non chemistry hobbist. Can someone assist please?
Thanks,
redtheinspector


----------



## redtheinspector

hoppycalif said:


> Assuming you have average tap water, you need KNO3 and KH2PO4. You also need a source of trace elements, which can be Greg Watson's CSM+B or it can be a commercial trace mix, such as Flourish. Your big tank will go through commercial trace mixes pretty fast, so CSM+B would be the best idea. Assuming you have about 300 watts of PC quality light with good reflectors, I would start by dosing 2 tsp KNO3 3X per week, 3/4 tsp KH2PO4 3X per week, and 1/2 - 3/4 tsp CSM+B (dosed dry) 3X per week. If you have much lower light than 300 watts, I would cut down to 2X or less per week.
> 
> *If your water has a low GH, or little or no Mg component of the GH I would dose Greg Watsons Barr GH builder too.


Hi Hoppy,
What is considered a low GH & how do we now how much of Barrs GH booster should be dosed into 65 gallons. I have 4 X 55 W lighting.

PS - I live in los Angeles & would like to meet others going the EI route.
As it happens I will be in Davis ythis weekend for their huge 100 anniversay "picnic day"
Is anyone going to be there? 
Regards
redtheinspector


----------



## redtheinspector

jdmstop said:


> Hoppy, can you elaborate on the continuous water change system? for water condition, I used the NovAqua conditioner, and what do you recommend as far as test kit? so far i'm i have a drop checker ensuring 30ppm co2, ph test kit and GH/KH test kit. My fish are very healthy only when it comes in time of water change. I utilize the spill-free phyton kit, so basically water comes out and new water goes back in right away then i add the water conditioner after the tank is filled back up. Maybe is because this, my fishes are experiencing shock. However, using this spill free water exchange method is so simple and quick, and best of all, no mess in my carpeted room.


Suggestion:
When you start to re fill the tank make sure you put in the conditioner first. I like to put it on the intake side of the filter. Then when the tank is filled I put in another full dose of water conditioner. This works ewell for me. I use a siphon system to get the water out via a bucket , a 3/4" hose & some pre made PVC lengths for an accurate WC at 50 %. I re fill from a kitchen faucet to which I attached a 3/8" 50 ' coil hose. It works well for me. 
regards,
redtheinspector


----------



## Kamon

I"m using this method:

20-40 Gallon Aquariums 
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Does Flourish Excel count as a source of trace elements?


----------



## supersmirky

Hi Kamon. Flourish Excel is only a source of carbon in lieu of CO2


----------



## surpera1

how do you gauge whether to increase or decrease the dosage ? just experiment with it ?


----------



## redtheinspector

surpera1 said:


> how do you gauge whether to increase or decrease the dosage ? just experiment with it ?


I am far from being an expert but......
According to Tom Barr you can't OD the tank, with one exception - P04
I read that it is suggested that you use the same doses for a minimun of 3 weeks. 
Regards,
red the inspecttor


----------



## mahchay

can anyone tell me if the 50% water is actually safe for the fish? isn't that a little too much for the little guys?


----------



## mahchay

also are those 3 fertilizers the only thing i have to add for optimal health for my plants???


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi mahchay

A 50% water change is safe. I match the tank temperature +/- 5 degrees. I fill with a bucket and I dose with a dechlorinizer (like Prime) before I add it to the tank. 

Yes, KNO3, KH2PO4, and trace elements (like CSM+B) are the basic elements in fertilizing the with the EI method.


----------



## Kypros

i would concur with my buddy Roy. I have been doing 50 % EI water changes for one year now with no apparent fish stress. I even put Prime into the tank as I add the water through a Python, which is probably not the most preferred method-but it works.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi mahchay
> 
> A 50% water change is safe. I match the tank temperature +/- 5 degrees. I fill with a bucket and I dose with a dechlorinizer (like Prime) before I add it to the tank.
> 
> Yes, KNO3, KH2PO4, and trace elements (like CSM+B) are the basic elements in fertilizing the with the EI method.


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

I want to start dosing this in my 29 gallon. However it is not planted to dense so i want to dose half the required ferts. Does this mean i can change 25% of water instead of 50? Also what is the example for the 29 in the beggining. It does not show up on my screen. Thanks so much. =D


BTW Hopefully it will help me get rid of my hair algae and the GSA


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Vadimshevchuk,

The purpose of the 50% water change weekly is to remove excess nutrients. Just because you are dosing 1/2 normal doesn't mean that you won't have excess nutrients, I would still do 50% weekly water changes. BTW, 50% weekly water changes help fish grow faster and larger as well!

Keep in mind that your 29 gallon tank is not really 29 gallons. After adding substrate and hardscape you probably have 20 - 25 gallons of water so dose accordingly. Here is the EI dosing schedule:

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


20-40 Gallon Aquariums
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/2 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Hair algae could be a sign of too much light and GSA is typically a sign of too little phosphate. Hope this helps!


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

my light is only on for 6 hrs. i think i get it from dosing leaf zone cuz when i stop it dissapears

noob question... waht are trace elements?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Vadimshevchuk,

Plants need three basic (macro) nutrients: Nitrogen (Nitrates);
Potassium; and Phosphorus

Plants also need other nutrients in smaller amounts (micro nutrients or trace elements) for proper growth: Iron, Magnesium, Maganese, zinc, copper, boron, Molybdenum, and calcium.

LOL.....aren't you glad you asked??!!


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

Yea! thanks seattle aquarist!


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

Yea, thanks so much seattle aquarist! So if im gonna order dry ferts what should i order including the iron and such. thanks so much for all answers.


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2

Im gonna be ordering off this website. Im gonna order 6. So wich should i go with? im gonna use it on a 29 gallon and its medium planted. So should i get .5lbs or 1 lbs. thanks so much for all asnwers.

well i got and added the top three to my cart, what do i add for trace elements?


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

also do i need to use gh booster since my water is very hard?


----------



## rich815

Load up with more plants, stems if you can. That will do more to get rid of your algae issues than ferts will. 

Just order KH2PO4 and KNO3 (and CSM+B if you do not have anything else for micros). You'll get enough Potassium from those too and do not need to dose it separately. If your water is hard you should not need any GH Booster. And really do not need iron, there should be enough in the CSM+B but some people like to dose extra anyway.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Vadimshevchuk,

I use the following: KNO3; K2SO4; KH2PO4; CSM+B; and Chelated Iron. A half a pound will probably last you a year or more, if it is available that way get it. I use small plastic bottles for my everyday needs and store my "extra" ferts in a cool, dry, location. You should not need a GH/DH booster if you have average or hard water.


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

alright thanks everyone. I am not excited for 50% water changes each week =/


----------



## Kamon

I use this:

29 Gallon Aquarium
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
5ml of Flourish 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Instead of using Flourish, would it be better if I used the CSM+B for trace elements?

Another thing, how does everyone dose their fertz into the tank? Do you simply measure out 1/4tsp of KNO3 and dump it into the aquarium?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Kamon,

I have used both CSM+B and Flourish Comprehensive in the past as my micronutrient source and although more expensive I believe that Flourish does a better job. I seem to have fewer deficiency problems with Flourish.


----------



## rich815

Kamon said:


> I use this:
> 
> 29 Gallon Aquarium
> +/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> 5ml of Flourish 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> Instead of using Flourish, would it be better if I used the CSM+B for trace elements?
> 
> Another thing, how does everyone dose their fertz into the tank? Do you simply measure out 1/4tsp of KNO3 and dump it into the aquarium?


I've used Flourish, CSM+B and TMG for micro dosing and frankly have need seen any major difference. Some others in my club (SFBAAPS) sort of report that same. Many others insist though they see differences so to each his own.

For dosing I dose dry right into the tank. Sometimes the fish mouth the powders as it drops to the bottom and this freaks some people out but it's of no consequence. Personally I drop the powder from the measuring spoon right into the water above my Koralia and it gets dissolved and blown around the tank. Some people will scoop a small cup of tank water and drop the powder in that, swish it around to dissolve most of it and then dump the cup of water back into the tank. That works too.


----------



## Kamon

I too have been dosing dry into the tank. I found that I felt more comfortable with using a small cup to scoop out water from the aquarium and letting the fertz dissolve, then pouring directly into the water.

One last question; is it advised to use Flourish and Flourish Comprehensive at the same time? Just wondering.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Kamon,

I use the name Flourish Comprehensive to differentiate it from other Flourish products such as Trace, Iron, etc. Most people just call it Flourish.


----------



## morris

Hey all,
There's just 1 thing about the ei dosage regime that's been bugging me for a while now.
Ex. For a 40 - 60 gal, the rec. Dosage is
1/2 tsp kno3 3*p/week
1/8th tsp kh2po4 3*p/week
10ml plantex csm+b
Then a 50% water change

Now, after you've done the 50% wc, say 25gal.
Do you only add ferts for the 25gal that's been replaced ex.
1/4 tsp kno3 3*p/week
1/16th tsp kh2po4 3*p/week ecc.

Or do you start the whole full fert regime again from scratch?
Cheers!!


----------



## bigstick120

Morris, you start from scratch, the point of 50% WC is to reset the tank.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi morris,

bigstick120 is correct, "start the whole full fert regime again from scratch".


----------



## The old man

I began the EI dosing and am due to change 50% water in my 29 gallon tank this Saturday. However, my nitrates, nitrites and ammonia all read 0 ppm. If they read the same on Saturday should I still due a water change? I think I'm supposed to at least have 5-20 ppm of Nitrates. I'm sure my API master test kit is reading ok. The tank is well planted and getting about 107 watts of t-5 and cf lighting with pressurized CO2. This tank has been established for about a year.


----------



## rich815

The old man said:


> I'm sure my API master test kit is reading ok.


Just curious. What makes you so sure they are reading ok?



The old man said:


> The tank is well planted and getting about 107 watts of t-5 and cf lighting with pressurized CO2.


Wow! I'm 108w of T5 on my 72 gal and even with that plants are growing quite fast for me. Are your plants growing like mad? Any algae issues? With that much light and if you have loads of plants I guess your levels could be down to zero if the plants sucked it all up. Do you have any fish? Even without dosing for some time my nitrate levels rarely drop lower than 5ppm just from fish poop and uneaten food.


----------



## The old man

The reason I believe the test kit is that I recently set up a new tank and went thru the ammonia spike, nitrites, nitrates cycle and the test kit read thru the whole process. I've also gotten good readings in the past. 
Algae was a problem, but after clearing most out with H2O2 and now clearing out a few BBA tufts with excel it is under control.
Fish in tank are Rummy nosed tetras (15), black line gobies (4)
A couple Swordtails and A couple mollies. Panda Corys (2) and Zebra Loaches (4). About 30 red shrimp. Oh, and one bristlenosed cat. 

The 48 watts of T-5 are about 4 inches above the tank in back and the 55 watt CF with AH reflector is sitting on top front to give extra light for the minuta ground cover. Other plants are Anubias, Fissidens & Java moss, Echinodorus Tenellus, Stauraqyne sp. Porto Velho and Red Repens all of which are growing quite well.

I also keep a small amount of Floating Red Rooter in the tank and believe it does suck up the nutients.


----------



## The old man

My bad on testing for nitrates.  I read the instructions again today and missed something.
I was to shake vigorisly for one minute the #2 bottle before adding to test tube. I did that and it shows my ntrates at about 15 ppm. This should be about right so glad I did the water change this morning. I'll retest during the week and see what it shows rest of week. I guess the #2 bottle needs to be shaken to stir up the indicator stuff. :!:


----------



## rich815

Ah ha! Now, that makes sense.


----------



## sukhkawal

hey guys, question. the level of macros in planted tank should be give or take :
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm

now can i add all of those at once to get them to their recomended levels except of doing EI and do a 50% WC end of week, will that also work? or do i HAVE to add them 3 to 4X a week


----------



## The old man

I have a friend that doses every thing once a week after the 50% water change. No problem for him, so he says. He has very high lighting and uses C02. Personally, I would rather use the EI and dose each three times a week.


----------



## The Rockster

*Initial Questions About EI Dosing Pertaining to Our Setup*



John N. said:


> *Overview*
> The Estimative Index (EI) coined by Tom Barr is a straightforward method for providing nutrients for a planted tank. The idea behind EI is simply introducing an excess amount of nutrients within an aquarium, throughout the week. This excess of nutrients floods the water column and feeds the plants. This is an estimative method; measuring specific nutrient uptake rates is not necessary and no test kits are involved. EI provides a surplus of nutrients that helps to prevents plant deficiencies, and allows plant growth to out compete algae growth.
> 
> The process of which this is done is simple. Each day fertilizers are dosed, and the nutrients are absorbed by the plants. With this method being estimative, we can dose fertilizers according to general guidelines suited for our particular setup (see below). At the end of the week, one performs a 50% water change to 'reset' the nutrient load in the entire system. And then the entire dosing schedule is repeated.
> 
> The primary fertilizers are the macro nutrients - Nitrogen (N), Phosphorous (P), Potassium (K), and the micro nutrients - trace elements (Plantex CSM+B, Flourish). Iron (Fe) can also be supplemented if necessary.
> 
> The Estimative Index method works best for a high light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to lower light setups, smaller quantities of fertilizers should be dosed in those instances.
> 
> *General Dosing Guideline for High Light and Well Planted Aquariums *
> _(wolfenxxx)_
> 
> *10- 20 Gallon Aquariums*
> +/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week
> +/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
> +/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *20-40 Gallon Aquariums *
> +/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *40-60 Gallon Aquariums*
> +/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *60 - 80 Gallon Aquariums*
> +/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- ¼ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- ¼ tsp (20ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium *
> +/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *Example Dosing Regime for 29 Gallon:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Note: *K2SO4 is not required for dosing unless you need the extra Potassium (K). This K is found in KN03 and KH2P04. Dosing these two according to above will yield sufficient K levels. Therefore, one will be fine dosing only KN03 and KH2P04, and Plantex. If one needs to increase their K levels with K2S04, add the same measured amount as KH2P04. For example, if one is dosing 1/2 tsp of KH2P04, then dose 1/2 tsp of K2S04. In true regards to EI, added excess K is not detrimental in any event.
> 
> *EI target ranges*
> CO2 range 25-30 ppm
> NO3 range 5-30 ppm
> K+ range 10-30 ppm
> PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
> Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
> GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
> KH range 3-5
> 
> See APC's Fertilator for additional dosing guides for Fe, Ca, Mg, etc.
> 
> *Where to buy fertilizers?*
> AquariumFertilizers.com can provide you with the necessary chemicals for dry and liquid dosing of the above. For micro - trace elements, Plantex CSM+B, Seachem Flourish, and Tropica AquaCare are equivalent to each other. Drsfostersmith and bigalsonline for the Seachem and Tropica brands.
> 
> One Pound of each of Aquarium Fertilizer/Greg Watson's Chemicals will last at least 1 year:Plantex CSM+B​Potassium Nitrate KN03​Monopotassium Phosphate KH2P04​Potassium Sulphate K2S04 _(optional)_​*Special Notes:*
> 
> Providing optimal CO2 levels of at least 30 ppm are necessary for plants to prosper and out-compete algae. If algae issue arise, remove all visible algae and infected leaves. Recheck CO2 levels, and possibly reduce and adjust the lighting period.
> 
> Direct dry dosing into the tank is perfectly fine. Many dosing straight into the tank, or they dissolve each chemical in water before adding.
> 
> Making a Liquid Stock of Plantex CSM+B is more often mixed into a bulk liquid solution since some find it more convenient to dose their trace elements this way. The recipe for this solution is 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex. This solution is stored in refrigerators to prevent mold from forming within the container. For making stock solutions for NPK refer here for a resourceful conversion calculator.
> 
> Small dosing teaspoons (smidgen, dash, pinch) can be found at Linen & Things, Bed Bath and Beyond, Wal-Mart, dollar stores, eBay and other online retailers. To identify the specific measurements of your smidgen, dash, pinch set, a 1/8 tsp should fill a ¼ tsp in 2 tries, 1/16 tsp in 4 tries, and a 1/32 tsp in 8 tries.
> 
> *Stick to a good dosing regime and your plants will flourish!*


Hi,

I am contemplating migrating to EI Dosing in the near future.

However before I start to think about switching I have two basic questions.

1. Using the water changing barrel I have, we can only change 24-28 gallons which is less than half, of the 72 gallon tank we have. Would this amount of water change still facilitate the weekly reset? Realizing that the net water volume of the tank is 60 gallons, we are not far from the 50 % mark

2. Is there any history of EI and Discus? Longevity results are probably nonexistent. We can see where the plants would flourish with EI . However some species of fish require purer water. Logically, over fertilization for extended periods of time, surely can't be beneficial to fish or humans.


----------



## will5

> Potassium Sulphate K2S04 (optional)


 I have I kind of been out of the hobby for a while but when did doesing K2SO4 become optional? Last I read we were all dosing it also.


----------



## wearsbunnyslippers

you should be getting enough K with the kno3 and kh2po4, too much K can inhibit calcium uptake...


----------



## will5

So now the idea is not to does it unless the plants show sings that they need more of it?


----------



## barbarossa4122

Hi,

I do my WCs on Fridays. A few days ago I printed these instructions out, but I do not remember from which site. Anyway, what I would like to ask you guys is this: are these printed instructions for the EI method?



> Minimum 50% weekly WCs, on WC day, 3/4 tsp GH booster.
> 
> On WC day, 3rd and 6th day:
> KNO3 1/2 tsp 3 times a week
> K2PO4 1/8 tsp 3 times a week
> K2SO4 1/8 tsp 3 times a week
> MgSO4.7H20 1/2 tsp 3 times a week
> 
> On second, fourth and seventh day:
> CSM+B 1/2 tsp 3 times a week


I am confused because I was under the impression that nothing should be added on WC day.


----------



## davemonkey

It looks like the EI dosing guide except where it says which days to dose. Dosing after a WC makes sense because you essentially lose all your nutrients that day. I guess it depends on if you WC in the morning or evening.

Whichever way you decide, just keep you routine steady. I've found having a normal routine to be more important than the actual days or dosing amounts.


----------



## barbarossa4122

davemonkey said:


> It looks like the EI dosing guide except where it says which days to dose. Dosing after a WC makes sense because you essentially lose all your nutrients that day. I guess it depends on if you WC in the morning or evening.
> 
> Whichever way you decide, just keep you routine steady. I've found having a normal routine to be more important than the actual days or dosing amounts.


Thank you *davemonkey*. I'll just add the GH booster on WC day.


----------



## SCU33ZE

So Lets say I am still full of the seachem line of ferts from my previous small tank, Would I have to just use the fertilator to do EI with the Seachem line? I have a 40 gallon high light and co2 injection and I am using the *20-40gal regime.*

If I convert the tsp of powders to ml of flourish in the fertlator and round it off for ease of dosing, It says to add 15ml of NO3 for 6.54ppm, 15ml PO4 for 0.45ppm, and 15ml of K for 6.81ppm. Of course I add 5ml of flourish comp and 2.5ml of Iron every other day. Are these target ranges good? I would assume that with 0 uptake those concentrations would be tripled by the 50% WC day. Is this dosing correct or am I bombarding my aquarium with too much? If this is correct it just shows how much of a waste of money seachem ferts are for larger tanks and the EI dosing. I will go straight to powdered ferts right when i deplete the seachem provisions lol. I noticed that the seachem suggested dosing is a little lean for high light high co2, actually alot lean. I began to have BGA, now with the added and more excessive nutrients the bga is disappearing from the extra No3 I would suspect. My tank has a lone dwarf puffer and With the seachem recommended dosing of NO3 my NO3 doesn't even register on the test kit. Their own DOSE calculator also agrees with the fertilator for EI amounts.

J.A


----------



## jello212

man, this is gonna help me out a lot


----------



## joshvito

> EI target ranges
> CO2 range 25-30 ppm
> NO3 range 5-30 ppm
> K+ range 10-30 ppm
> PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
> Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
> GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
> KH range 3-5


Is this the target range after one daily dose, or the target at the end of the week before the water change?


----------



## barbarossa4122

joshvito said:


> Is this the target range after one daily dose, or the target at the end of the week before the water change?


Hi,

The end of the week.


----------



## Aquaticz

joshvito said:


> Is this the target range after one daily dose, or the target at the end of the week before the water change?


If you need to hear it another way look up James Planted Tank. I liked the way it is presented.

btw
I just re worked my fertilizer solutions using info on his page
Regards


----------



## barbarossa4122

joshvito said:


> Is this the target range after one daily dose, or the target at the end of the week before the water change?


http://www.barrreport.com/forum.php


----------



## wlyons9856

I currently purchased a pound of the dry PMDD Pre-MIX, I am going to have a mid planted 10g tank, will I need other ferts or will the pre mix do?


----------



## Gramazing

Hi, I am going to start on EI and was just wondering if someone could verify my amounts. I think I've worked it out ok but a second opinion would be nice. I am going to dissolve my micro and macro nutrients in 2 separate gallon bottles and add them that way.

I am basing my routine on the 20-40 gallon size, even though my tank is 55. That's because I don't at this stage have a huge number of plants and no CO2, although I am adding Flourish Excel. So the amount is as follows:

_20-40 Gallon Aquariums 
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change_

To take the micros as an example.... 1/16 tsp three times a week.

I have a gallon bottle of distilled water. That is 3,780 millilitres. If I have a 10ml dose then that is 378 doses, at 3 times a week = 126 weeks of dosing.

That means 1/16 tsp x 378 doses = 23.625 tsp to go in the gallon of water. 24 teaspoons is half a cup, so I dissolve half a cup (or a smidge less) in the gallon of water and I'm good for 378 doses. Does this sound correct?

If this is correct then it's just a matter of multiplying out for the macros. The amount of KH2P04 is the same, i.e. 1/2 a cup, and the amount of KN03 is 4 times that.

So... I should dissolve 2 cups of KN03 and half a cup of KH2P04 in a gallon of water. Does this sound correct? If so, is it actually possible to dissolve this much in a gallon or should I make a weaker solution, say, halve the amount for 189 (i.e.378 / 2) doses of 20ml?


----------



## Gramazing

Anyone? <bump>


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Gramazing,

I do my EI dosing the easy way, I dose the KNO3 and KH2PO4 dry. I used to mix my ferts with water when I did PPS-Pro but it was time consuming and pretty much a pain. My CSM+B micro solution would develop a fungus after 2 - 3 weeks, even when I added a fungicide when I mixed it up.

Today I dose my KNO3 and KH2PO4 dry, use Flourish Comprehensive for my micros, and dose Excel at 2X daily dose for algaecide properties and extra carbon. I occasionally dose extra iron and I use root tabs for my crypts and heavy root feeders.


----------



## Gramazing

Oh that's a bummer, I mixed my CSM+B already, in a gallon bottle of distilled water. I worked out I have a 2 and a half year supply! I will put it in the cupboard to keep it in the dark, hopefully that will stop anything from growing in it.

As for dosing dry, I'm concerned my fish will eat it! They go for anything I drop in there. If they don't like it they spit it out again but still.


----------



## Izzy

Extract 250ml in a different container. This will be for everyday use. Store the rest of the jug and the smaller one in the frig. This has kept mine usable longer.


----------



## peke_g

Hello guys, first thing sorry for my english im from holland
I have a little question im gonna try this method of dosing but i have 1 little problem, I really need to do twice a 50% waterchange per week how i need to dose the ei method then?

Tnx


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi peke_g,

I would do the dosage exactly the same. I would do the second water change on a day I dose the Macro nutrients.


----------



## Gramazing

peke_g said:


> Hello guys, first thing sorry for my english im from holland
> I have a little question im gonna try this method of dosing but i have 1 little problem, I really need to do twice a 50% waterchange per week how i need to dose the ei method then?
> 
> Tnx


I'm assuming you are asking if you need to do a 50% water change twice a week. I believe the answer is no: you only need to do 50% once a week. I hope so anyway, because that's what I'm doing!!


----------



## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi peke_g,
> 
> I would do the dosage exactly the same. I would do the second water change on a day I dose the Macro nutrients.


+1


----------



## Gramazing

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi peke_g,
> 
> I would do the dosage exactly the same. I would do the second water change on a day I dose the Macro nutrients.





barbarossa4122 said:


> +1


But I would do the water change first!


----------



## peke_g

Tnx guys, But i really need the 2 waterchanges per week because of the evaporation.
So its no problem to do 2 waterchanges per week and do that on the macro day?

Gr


----------



## bosmahe1

wlyons9856 said:


> I currently purchased a pound of the dry PMDD Pre-MIX, I am going to have a mid planted 10g tank, will I need other ferts or will the pre mix do?


You will need phosphates as well (kh2po4).

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/i...rnEdit=2&Returnitemname=&ReturnShowItemStart=


----------



## Gramazing

I think so but you don't need to do 50% each time. Or... you could just top up through the week and do 50% once a week.


----------



## darkoon

KNO3 and KH2PO4 are most likely not needed based on my experience if you have high fish load or you feed your fish frequently. EI dosing can pretty much be simplified down to dosing just GH booster and CSM+B. GH Booster has the right ratio of K/Ca/Mg, and CSM+B has all the micro + Boron.


----------



## saint

Sorry if this has been said already but im wondering when everyone doses each fert?

a monday to friday list would be nice, im curious if any should be dosed first before others


----------



## Aquaticz

saint said:


> Sorry if this has been said already but im wondering when everyone doses each fert?
> 
> a monday to friday list would be nice, im curious if any should be dosed first before others


IT HAS BEEN SAID...... MACROS AND MICROS are dosed on alternating days. 
I dose macros Sun, Tues & Thurs
I dose micros on Mon, Wed & Fri

on Saturday I ride my recumbent all day ...LOL & on Sunday before I ride my recumbent I do a 50% water change

When dosing macros it makes no difference which is first just do not do macros & micros on the same day 

HTH


----------



## fishstein

*How much dry chelated iron to add?*

In the past I noticed an improvement in growth and color when I started using a liquid Fe supplement, so would like to start supplementing Fe again, but in dry powdered form.

If I'm already adding recommended EI levels for our Biocube 29 (actual volume about 22 g) and 125H g (actual volume about 112g), how many teaspoons dry Chelated Iron (from aquariumfertilizer.com) would you add?

125g H - currently add 1/2 tsp CSM+B on alternate days 
Biocube 29g - currently add 1/16 CSM+B on alternate days

Both tanks are CO2 injected with inline reactors and have good light from T5HO and PC bulbs with reflectors, though I tend to keep the light on the medium end (except when I occasionally rev the growth with more light when I want to grow out certain plants more quickly). Substrate is ADA Aquasoil Amazonia I.

Growth is good, algae is almost totally at bay, but I think growth and color would be even better with some Fe.


----------



## doubleott05

Making a Liquid Stock of Plantex CSM+B is more often mixed into a bulk liquid solution since some find it more convenient to dose their trace elements this way. The recipe for this solution is 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex. This solution is stored in refrigerators to prevent mold from forming within the container. For making stock solutions for NPK refer here for a resourceful conversion calculator.


the hyperlink for making npk stock solution is broken


----------



## xJaypex

doubleott05 said:


> Making a Liquid Stock of Plantex CSM+B is more often mixed into a bulk liquid solution since some find it more convenient to dose their trace elements this way. The recipe for this solution is 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex. This solution is stored in refrigerators to prevent mold from forming within the container. For making stock solutions for NPK refer here for a resourceful conversion calculator.
> 
> the hyperlink for making npk stock solution is broken


Yeah im having trouble finding a source that shows me how to make NPK solutions for EI dosing.

Can anyone show me the way to a recipe that shows how to make two solutions for micros and macro with EI dosing instructions to a 50g of water tank?


----------



## Gramazing

Here's what I came up with:

Starting with "General Dosing Guideline for High Light and Well Planted Aquariums":

_20-40 Gallon Aquariums 
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week 
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

40-60 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change_

If I wanted to make a gallon of solution:
3,780 millilitres = 1 gallon
378 x 10 ml doses @ 3 x a week = 126 weeks worth of dosing!

Trace Elements 1/16 tsp x 378 doses = 23.625 tsp to a gallon of water

378/16 = 23.625 teaspoons = ½ cup
1/cup = 126 weeks of dosing.
2 years + 22 weeks until December 2012

(1 cup = 48 tsp)

For ¼ tsp KN03 and 1/16 tsp KH2P04

½ cup KH2P04, 2 cups KN03 to one gallon, 10ml dose, 378 doses.
Or if you want a weaker dose:
1/4 cup KH2P04, 1 cup KN03 to one gallon, 20ml dose, 189 doses.

I copied pasted this from my records, I hope it makes sense. My EI dosing is based on a smaller tank, 20-40 gallons (although my tank is 55). Even that I find is too much fertilizer. If I dose 3 times a week I wind up nitrates close to 40 ppm... but YMMV.


----------



## Marcio_Moraes

Hi there, i have just ordered some dry fertilizers from aquariumfertilizers.com but my tank has a few BBA that is starting to get under control. At the moment i just add K twice a week, CaCl2 and MgSO4 to raise my GH to 6ºdH, NaHCO3 to raise the KH to 2ºdH.

Can i start to use EI even with this few algae problem?


Thanks.


----------



## Jaap

Hi,

I dont have plantex so I will be using EI for macros and I will dose micros and iro though seachems flourish trace elements and flourish iron. Does this sound good?

Can I mix a solution of KN03, KH2P04 and K2S04 and dose 3 times a week or maybe even daily a certain amount of the solution e.g 5 ml a day or 10 ml every other day????


----------



## Tex Gal

Plantex is just the CSM+B that is available online along with the other ferts. They are all usually sold in a kit for $19 or so. That much should last you quite a while. You can dose the flourish products though it will probably be way way less cost effective.

You can also mix the macros to make one solution and dose or do them dry dosing. The amounts listed in the first post are for dosing dry by teaspoonfuls. If you mix you have to achieve the same level of ppm by the end of the week. It doesn't matter whether you dose daily or every other day. Just leave some time between dosing your macros and your traces. There can be a reaction between iron and phosphates. You will see a white cloudiness which is the iron precipitating out of your water becoming unavailable to your plants. Some people wait 10 minutes, others 2 hours. Just see what works for you.


----------



## Jaap

Has anyone come up with a liquified solution of these macros and the exact quantities they put in the solution in gramms?

Thanks


----------



## D9Vin

alright, i am trying to figure out a DAILY routine and dry fert solution for my 40 gal using this calculator
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm
hoping someone might let me know if i have a good starting point with these measurements

KNO3- 5tsp in 500ml water, add 15ml=3.64 ppm
KH2P04- .5tsp in 500 ml. add 15ml=.46 ppm (this one i am wondering on, it would give me a weekly total of 3.22, more than the target range, but far less than the recommended dosage)
CSM+B- 1tsp in 500ml water add 15 ml=roughly recommended dosage


----------



## Jaap

Using EI dosing method do I start the dosing regime from day 1 as if the tank was established? e.g no cutting back in ferts at the begining?


----------



## jeff5614

hadjici2 said:


> Using EI dosing method do I start the dosing regime from day 1 as if the tank was established? e.g no cutting back in ferts at the begining?


Yes, start dumping


----------



## john.shephard26

Hi to my question is probably answered somewhere I'm sure but I'll ask here anyway:
My calculator says that I have to dose, for example: 20 ml of KNO3 to get 20ppm a week. 
Now do I have to divide those 20 ml in three doses a week or should I add three times 20 ml a week(which I actually do)?


----------



## D9Vin

Divide it by three. You want to add your target ppm over the course of the week.


----------



## bigstick120

john.shephard26 said:


> Hi to my question is probably answered somewhere I'm sure but I'll ask here anyway:
> My calculator says that I have to dose, for example: 20 ml of KNO3 to get 20ppm a week.
> Now do I have to divide those 20 ml in three doses a week or should I add three times 20 ml a week(which I actually do)?


Dose about 7ml every other day.


----------



## john.shephard26

Well I must say I didn't divide before and had some algae problem but I'll try this now and see what happens!!!


----------



## Gor22don33

Great overview! I'm sure I'll be referencing this thread often . . . . very simple to understand. I especially like the target levels and the dosing schedule table!
__________________


----------



## Mr. Fish

John N. said:


> To identify the specific measurements of your smidgen, dash, pinch set, a 1/8 tsp should fill a ¼ tsp in 2 tries, 1/16 tsp in 4 tries, and a 1/32 tsp in 8 tries.


John I just realized your math on this is wrong:

*1/8 tsp should fill a 1/4 tsp in 2 tries:* *correct.*

*1/8 tsp should fill a 1/16 tsp in 4 tries:* *Incorrect.*

_(1/16tsp will fill a 1/8 tsp in 2 tries)_

*1/8 tsp should fill a 1/32 in 8 tries:* *Incorrect.*

_(1/32 will fill a 1/8 tsp in 4 tries)_


----------



## gladiator008

Question.... I have Dry Ferts Potassium sulfate and Potassium nitrate just recieved in the mail . No instruction on how to add it to my tank . so how would I add it to my tank?


----------



## Aquaticz

hilarious post....
suggestion read thread 
.

short answer - mix it or not
I suggest you use Wets calculator

http://calc.petalphile.com/

one more suggestion PACK & I mean Pack the plants in before using ferts 
HTH



gladiator008 said:


> Question.... I have Dry Ferts Potassium sulfate and Potassium nitrate just recieved in the mail . No instruction on how to add it to my tank . so how would I add it to my tank?


----------



## gladiator008

Thanks Aquaticz


----------



## Jmitchem

Thanks, one question though can I pre-measure pre-mix both dry ferts KNO3 & KH2PO4 into a weekly pill holder* without it exploding or messing it up? That way I can track my 3x per week dosing better. 

weekly pill holder: the container with snap lids, that has the days of the week on it to keep track of taking prescriptions.

thanks


----------



## bosmahe1

Jmitchem said:


> Thanks, one question though can I pre-measure pre-mix both dry ferts KNO3 & KH2PO4 into a weekly pill holder* without it exploding or messing it up? That way I can track my 3x per week dosing better.
> 
> weekly pill holder: the container with snap lids, that has the days of the week on it to keep track of taking prescriptions.
> 
> thanks


Not sure if you got your answer yet. Yes you can mix those two chemicals together without issue. Just don't mix KH2PO4 with Fe or micros containing Fe. This combination would probably be very cloudy and the Fe would be rendered useless.


----------



## cephelix

Good evening from Singapore fellow APCers.

My virgin post would be regarding EI. Have only started it a few days ago and I have a few queries.

But first, the specs for my tank
Volume: 20 gallons
Lights: 55W PL but I have another spare in case I want to increase lighting.
Planting Density: Medium (Cabomba, Christmas Moss, Dwarf Sagittaria, Anubia, Crypt and Tenellus)
CO2: Pressurized with a diffuser, purchasing a drop checker this weekend to determine if I have 30ppm but currently it's at 1bps.
Substrate: Gex Black Soil

Target doses for components;
NO3 in the form of Ca(NO3)2: 30ppm
PO4 in the form of KH2PO4: 2ppm
K in the form of K2SO4: 30ppm
Micros: LushGro Micro

Using "Yet Another Nutrient Calculator" plus some simple calculations,
It was recommended that I dose: 
4.00g Ca(NO3)2
255mg KH2PO4
4.68g K2SO4

Dosing schedule would be dry dosing macros on odd days and micros on even days, off on Saturday and a 50% WC on Sunday.

My question is;
a. The Calculator suggested that I dose the above mentioned weights every other day but some people have suggested that I divide the above dose by 3 and dose a third of the weights each day. Which regime should I follow then?
b. For the Micros, contents on the Website http://www.ecocityhydroponics.com/lushgro-micros-liquid.html
puts the contents of the solution as:
Iron as EDTA chelate 21,253mg/L	
Zinc 617mg/L
Manganese	5,684	mg/L
Copper 267mg/L
Boron	483mg/L
Molybdenum 471mg/L

and to dose 1 drop per 100L of water. Should I follow the instructed dosage or do I calculate out how much to dose?

Hope you guys can help.

Kindest Regards,
Ali


----------



## cloud18

i mix my dry fert with ro water...I found a formula online for a 500ml container...I followed that formula but rather than using a 500ml container I used a 750ml contrainer is that ok?


----------



## UltraBlue

cloud18 said:


> i mix my dry fert with ro water...I found a formula online for a 500ml container...I followed that formula but rather than using a 500ml container I used a 750ml contrainer is that ok?


depends if you used more water or not. RO water is not necessary. I use distilled water from a grocery store. If you used more water your solution is more dilute meaning you dose less fertilizer per volume of solution.

EI uses a range, if you use WETs calculator at http://rota.la you can find out where you are at with your increased volume. You may still be within EIs range. If not you most likely are within other fertilizer regiments ranges as EI is the richest dosing method I know of.


----------



## kiravix

Thank you for great topic. 
Actually I want use EI and I got (NPK & TE) but I dont know how to dose because all the elements in one product, so please I need help.

My tanks 190 L & 160 L
High light
Please find the attached pictures.


----------



## mistryde

I want to try EI dosing daily. But I want to premix all the ferts (except Fe) My Tank is 67 US Gal. heavily planted, photo attached. Lights 1.5 wpg 12 hrs DIY Co2 1bps

I plan to use the ferts listed in the attached file, dilute in 1000 ml distilled water and use 11 ml of the solution daily. 50% wc once a week. Last two columns are an option, i'll prepare premix either for 1 month or 3 months.

Experts please check this out and point out if i'm doing something (or everything ) wrong and suggest improvements / corrections.


----------



## mistryde

any replies please


----------



## DanielG

mistryde said:


> I want to try EI dosing daily. But I want to premix all the ferts (except Fe) My Tank is 67 US Gal. heavily planted, photo attached. Lights 1.5 wpg 12 hrs DIY Co2 1bps
> 
> I plan to use the ferts listed in the attached file, dilute in 1000 ml distilled water and use 11 ml of the solution daily. 50% wc once a week. Last two columns are an option, i'll prepare premix either for 1 month or 3 months.
> 
> Experts please check this out and point out if i'm doing something (or everything ) wrong and suggest improvements / corrections.


Hey, I don't have any constructive feedback I can give you as I am a novice with the EI method...but I'm wondering how you will maintain your target ppm's with KNO3 & KH2PO4? I've been doing some research with the plants that I currently have in regards to their ideal ppm's in Nitrate and Phosphate and have found that the hardest part may lie in maintaining ppm levels.

Do you plan on just monitoring via test kits?


----------



## mistryde

Hi, I do not plan to use any test kits. Not required I was told for EI dosing


----------



## DanielG

mistryde said:


> I want to try EI dosing daily. But I want to premix all the ferts (except Fe) My Tank is 67 US Gal. heavily planted, photo attached. Lights 1.5 wpg 12 hrs DIY Co2 1bps
> 
> I plan to use the ferts listed in the attached file, dilute in 1000 ml distilled water and use 11 ml of the solution daily. 50% wc once a week. Last two columns are an option, i'll prepare premix either for 1 month or 3 months.
> 
> Experts please check this out and point out if i'm doing something (or everything ) wrong and suggest improvements / corrections.


Alrighty, well...this is what I would calculate:

*+/- 3/4 tsp* = 3.70 ml *KNO3* - x3 weekly = 11.1 ml weekly
*+/- 1/4 tsp* = 1.23 ml *KH2PO4* - x3 weekly = 3.69 ml weekly
*+/- 1/4 tsp* = 1.23 ml *trace* - x3 weekly = 3.69 weekly
______
3.7(3)+1.23(3)+1.23(3) = 18.48 ml of ferts weekly
______
18.48 ml x4 weeks = 73.92 ml of ferts a MONTH
______
put 73.92 ml ferts in a 1000 ml bottle and then dose *35.71 ml daily* for *1 month* supply (based on 28 day month).

To scale up to 3 months... multiply 73.92 by 3 which equals 221.76 ml
1000 ml divided by *3 months* (84 days based on 28 day month) = *11.90 ml daily*

TOTAL DAILY DOSING:
---------------ONE MONTH---------THREE MONTH
-----------------35.71ml--------------11.90ml---

Does this make sense? This is how i would think to do it.


----------



## mistryde

yes makes sense, thanks


----------



## Guest

I have a 200 Gallon Planted Aquarium.

This is my current set up: 

200 Gallon Planted Discus, Snails, Shrimp, Cat Fish, Long Finned Bushy Nose Plecos, and Cardinal Tetras. Aquarium consist of: 12 Panorma Pro LED Strips 8K mixed with 12K (currently at 7 hours of light per day, I reduced it to take care of an algae issue) Waiting till the end of month when the Current USA Ramp Timer Pro is released. External Eheim 2400 Hobby Pump running a Pressurized CO2 with a solenoid and with atomizer connected to a PH controller set at 7.0% AquaMaxx XL made to be a CO2 Reactor with atomizer and Dual GFO (running Purigen) / Carbon Reactor and a Coralife 18 Watt UV with a WM-P Series 
Eheim 2080 Pro 3 Filter on its own line. Substrate is 3" of Flourite Black Sand. I'm in the process of changing over to using 50% RO water Right now I'm using 100% tap water filtered through a dual carbon block and media filter cartridge. Ordered the John Len Liquid Dosing Pump which was recommended by a fellow Aquarius. 

These are the Ferts that I ordered, I may have ordered way too many things however I need some dosing suggestions based on my tank and what I should use and should not use. I'm planning to premix these into water and dose them with a dose timer.


Item# 4 Calcium Sulfate CaSO4, AKA Gypsum supplies calcium to plants without increasing alkalinity.
Ferrous Gluconate

Item# 1 food grade ferrous Gluconate Magnesium Sulfate

Item# 8 Magnesium Sulfate MgSO4 , This is also known as Epsom Salts Iron Chelate 13 

Item# 6 Iron Chelate 13 (EDTA as chelator) , Contains 6 nitrates Mono Potassium Phosphate

Item# 10 Mono Potassium Phosphate MKP or KH2PO4 , 0-51-34 Plantex CSM + Boron

Item# 5 CSM+B Plantex a micro nutrient mix

Item# 12 Potassium Nitrate KNO3, 13.5-0-46.2

Item# 11 Macro Micro Nutrient Mix 1 lb contains 1 equal part each of Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Plantex CSM+B.

This past week I put in Seachem Flourish Tabs for all the plants. The majority of the plants are in the sword family.

Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## Aquaticz

This post his about Macros only

If a Mod thinks it should be elsewhere of a separate post - please let me know 

I need some help please....
I am surprised that of the many EI posts, I have yet to see one, that deals with multiple tank sizes and solutions. Mostly you see ppl posting for a certain size tank. Well I have all sizes and *think* the idea would be to calculate for the larger tank and then break that down to the number of gallons being dosed

So I thought this would be the place post what and how I mix fertilizers and how many ML of the solution I use. I am hoping a math nerd will check mixes.

I am no expert and welcome comments. I have the following sized tanks:
10 gal, 15 gal, 29 gal, 40 gal, 55 gal and a 70 gal.


I mix 3000 liters at a time.
Macro 
N- target 7.5ppm using 601 g of KNO3
P- target 2. ppm using 141 g Kh2PO4 
K - target 7.5 ppm using 274 g K2SO4

I use this many ML for 3 X a week for both N + P
10 gal gets 2 ml
15 gal gets 3 ml
29 g gets 7 ml
40 gal gets 10 m
55 gal gets 15 ml
65 gal gets 15 ml


I use this many ML for 3 X a week for K:
10 gal gets 6 ml
15 gal gets 9 ml
29 g gets 21 ml
40g gets 30 ml
55g gets 45 ml
65 g gets 45 ml 

I think I go through to many Fertilizers??? 
Knowing this is EI, I will at times modify what goes in, which always seems to be more, especially with Kn03 ( otherwise I get cano BGA)
You thoughts? Thank you


----------



## Diana K

I do the same. 

Q1: How many total gallons am I dosing? (Add up all the tanks)
So, how much of each material do I need for 1 week? (do some math with each dose of each material... so many teaspoons per dose, 3 doses per week...)
Put this much in the bottles (macros in one bottle, micros in the other)

Q2: How can I best dose? For me, I dose at the rate of 1ml per 3 gallons of tank volume. 
So, multiply it out: How many gallons in all the tanks? How many doses in one week? (3) Divide by 3 gallons and call it ml. 
Put that much water in each bottle.

Side note: I also dose with glut. I do a similar computation and add a weeks worth of glut to the bottles then top it off with distilled water. The glut minimizes the growth of 'goo' in the bottles. Per a recommendation by a chemist I also add a bit of citric acid to keep the mixture acidic.


----------



## Aquaticz

Some how I knew you would answer. Thank you Diana


Also want to thank you on behalf of the community for your commitment to assist and teach. You are a real Asset to APC


----------



## Aquaticz

Hello again 
I am posting this info based on Diana's reply. If I have made any mistakes please point them out.

I believe this will be very helpful to those doing EI on multiple tanks
I probably missed it even though I have been at APC since 2009.

Q1: How many total gallons am I dosing? (Add up all the tanks)

12 , 40, 65, 29, 55, 15 = 216 gallons 
So, how much of each material do I need for 1 week? (do some math with each dose of each material... so many teaspoons per dose, 3 doses per week...
Each dose X 3
* kno3. 10g 30. g
* K2so4. 13.67 g. 41.01 g
* Kh2po4. 1.52. 4.56 g
* 
Put this much in the bottles (macros in one bottle, micros in the other)

Q2: How can I best dose? For me, I dose at the rate of 1ml per 3 gallons of tank volume. 
So, multiply it out: How many gallons in all the tanks?

216

How many doses in one week? (3) Divide by 3 gallons and call it ml.

216 x 3= 648 ml of H20

Put that much water in each bottle.

Single Dosage per tank ( three times a week)
12 divided by 3= 4 ml 
40 divided by 3= 13.3 ml
65 divided by 3= 21.6 ml
29 divided by 3= 9.6 ml
55 divided by 3= 18.3 ml
15 divided by 3= 5 ml

What you wrote below is great advice. I will do this as well since I also dose glut.

Side note: I also dose with glut. I do a similar computation and add a weeks worth of glut to the bottles then top it off with distilled water. The glut minimizes the growth of 'goo' in the bottles. Per a recommendation by a chemist I also add a bit of citric acid to keep the mixture acidic.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Aquaticz

Only one problem... I am re working doses too the higher higher end of EI.
There is a solubility problem when mixing with 600 ml of water. 

I want to mix 
NO3- 90 grams
P04 - 6.6 grams
K - 75 grams

Solution does not dissolve. I had intended to dose as suggested 1 ml to every 3 gal.

best solution:
1. Should I double the water and double the dose amount?

2. Comments

Thx U


----------



## Aquaticz

Mod Please delete post #203 - The content is erroneous Thank you


----------



## Calcuttan

Sorry to ask a very basic question. Is there any page where the precise weights are given rather than what fraction of a tea spoon it should be? Measuring 1/32 (or 1/x) of a teaspoon is proving to be a little difficult for me.
I know I can prepare a solution with a larger weight but I prefer to dose direct from the jar with a tea spoon. As of now I am doing an eye-estimation.


----------



## bsantucci

Calcuttan said:


> Sorry to ask a very basic question. Is there any page where the precise weights are given rather than what fraction of a tea spoon it should be? Measuring 1/32 (or 1/x) of a teaspoon is proving to be a little difficult for me.
> I know I can prepare a solution with a larger weight but I prefer to dose direct from the jar with a tea spoon. As of now I am doing an eye-estimation.


rotalabutterfly.com has a calculator for specific weights of dry dosing.


----------



## Calcuttan

Thanks a lot bsantucci. That's a very helpful site. Must bookmark it.


----------



## captmicha

I can't understand math. Can someone please tell me how to mix up a DRY stock so I can just scoop from one bag of mixed fert powder? I used to do this years ago but forgot how much of what to add. 

I have a bunch of different sized tanks. Different lights, stocking, conditions, etc. I'm over whelmed. All have at least some plants.

Also, about precipitation, I'm confused because Dynagro Foliage Pro (land plant growers might might be familiar with this) has most of your macros and micros together in a liquid stock in a single bottle.


----------



## hoppycalif

You should be dosing a lot bigger dosage of K2SO4 and/or KNO3 than KH2PO4. So, it is difficult to uniformly mix appropriate dry quantities of those chemicals so that each half teaspoon you scoop out contains about the right ratio of each. Mixing liquids is very easy, but mixing dry powders isn't. It isn't really that hard to dip out the tiny amounts of each of the powders individually on whatever schedule you follow. I keep mine in polyethylene containers, with snap on lids, with the content of the container and the dosage boldly marked on the lid.


----------



## DutchMuch

This thread was a neat read!


----------



## captmicha

It is for me. I have a lot of tanks and little to no energy.


----------



## HenrySheehan

Hi everyone, question for ye.

I have a 100 gallon tank and intend on using a water drip feed method which will be running continuously. By using this method I hope to not have to do a big WC every week. 
Is it possible to still do the EI Dosing method and if so how would I go about it.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## DutchMuch

Hey Henry,
I would think it'd still be possible but not as effective as I would dose personally in smaller amounts. You don't want To much nutrients but you want enough that the plants can absorb whatever, whenever. 
But I do recommend a water change weekly IMO. Just part of routine maintenance.


----------



## Aquaticz

Maybe dose daily and take some test at different times or intervals during the photoperiod. Then its a matter of adjustment as you desire. 

As DutchMuch indicates - do a weekly WC anyway


----------



## hoppycalif

It depends on how much of a drip you have going. If it is one gallon per day that is considerably different from 10 gallons per day, etc. The greater the rate you change the water the more likely you can dose according to the tables. At a gallon per day you would need to adjust the dosing to avoid big overdoses.


----------



## Gone missing

I have never worked too hard to get to that level as I see some problems. 
A set it and forget it type sounds good but then my fish and plants have never wanted it to work? 
Given time one might find just the right amount of water to remove and dosing to add, but then it is always changing even when we don't see the change. Fish and plants grow or die. Taller get taller and shade low ones. We feed the fish more or less. Even the water changes from the hot and dry season to winter in some places. 
So how it would work long term is not one I've found. 
My final issue is that I do need to look at my tanks and during water changes, I'm sure to spot things going wrong before they become monsters.


----------



## DutchMuch

Gone missing said:


> I have never worked too hard to get to that level as I see some problems.
> A set it and forget it type sounds good but then my fish and plants have never wanted it to work?
> Given time one might find just the right amount of water to remove and dosing to add, but then it is always changing even when we don't see the change. Fish and plants grow or die. Taller get taller and shade low ones. We feed the fish more or less. Even the water changes from the hot and dry season to winter in some places.
> So how it would work long term is not one I've found.
> My final issue is that I do need to look at my tanks and during water changes, I'm sure to spot things going wrong before they become monsters.


Gone missing, 
your post is missing key points. 
Plants do not shade out others with: proper planting, and correct spacing. it all relies on the scape, plus half the time if you have high lighting this doesn't matter much anyway... 
If you put in the time and effort, you can feed your inhabitants Exactly the right amount, many people do this but its more on the nerdy side. You take the fish(s) weight and do some math with it and the food (blah blah not getting into it) etc etc etc... I personally underfeed a bit and don't see bad results, my feeding schedule is every other day, and I give just enough.


----------



## Gone missing

No doubt there are key points missing. No perfect way for sure. But that is what I was trying to get at. Our tanks do change, so I have never felt that I had enough of a perfect dose to assume that it will be correct at some point in the future. So that has left me not spending much time to perfect a really good dosing system as I would assume it will change. I have shied away from setting a mechanical dosing system or even using a pre-mixed as I keep finding things that prompt me to vary my dosing. 
Quite possible the combination of what I do is part of the problem as my tanks are rarely the same for very long. 
Maybe just a difference in how we each view the hobby. Some want a picture perfect tank to set back and view. I much prefer doing things with the tanks. I've never had a picture perfect tank but I might want to tear it down and start a new project, even if I had one?
I once moved to a perfect spot-- but then there were too many people there and I moved!


----------



## johnzimm

John N. said:


> *Overview*
> The process of which this is done is simple.
> *Stick to a good dosing regime and your plants will flourish!*


I have no idea if I am doing this right! this is not simple for me. Can someone just check to see if this is correct? I can only dose 5 days a week because tank is a the school I work at.
20 gal tank.
dose 10ml (from 500 ml bottle = 50 doses in a bottle).
3 days of Macro, 2 days of micro, 50% water change a week.

KNO3: 926mg per dose = 46.3g in the bottle
KH2PO4: 180mg per dose = 7.05g in the bottle
K2S04: 1.27g per dose = 63.5g in the bottle
Plantex+B: 232mg per dose = 11.60g in the bottle

And if I wanted to add Calcium Sulfate to the mix for my Mexican Dwarf Crawfish.
and the target is 15ppm CASO4,2H20: 4.88 per dose = 244g in the bottle.

Thank you so much for any help!
John


----------



## viipa007

Hi there,
I was hoping you could offer some advice for the following tank setup:
Tank: Juwal Rio 240 litre
Lighting: Fluval fresh& plant 2.0 (4.30pm to 5pm ramp up to 80% - 10pm to 10.30pm ramp down)
Co2: Pressurized 3bps (4pm to 9.30pm) mixed with internal co2 reactor.
Tank type: heavily planted jungle tank (Sords,crypts, red lotus, xmas moss etc)
Filter: All ponds solutions efx+ 2000 l/ph
Dosing :uk plant food uk ei dosing

The problem:

I am following your recipe and dosing schedule to the extent of dosing for a 200 litre tank not for the full 240 litre which my tank is. All algae seems to have disappeared, but green spot algae has taken hold on my crypts, swords, aubias and some of the other species and also my red plants dont seem to be as vibrant with stunted and small leaf growth. But only specs on the glass hardly worth worrying about.

I did do i phosphate test, it indecated 40ppm which i dont think is right so i take those results with a pinch of salt.

Any advice hear?

Do I need to dose for the full 240 litres because I am under dosing? Is this a deficiency overall throughtout my tank?


----------



## petstoreavm

viipa007 said:


> Hi there,
> I was hoping you could offer some advice for the following tank setup:
> Tank: Juwal Rio 240 litre
> Lighting: Fluval fresh& plant 2.0 (4.30pm to 5pm ramp up to 80% - 10pm to 10.30pm ramp down)
> Co2: Pressurized 3bps (4pm to 9.30pm) mixed with internal co2 reactor.
> Tank type: heavily planted jungle tank (Sords,crypts, red lotus, xmas moss etc)
> Filter: All ponds solutions efx+ 2000 l/ph
> Dosing :uk plant food uk ei dosing
> 
> The problem:
> 
> I am following your recipe and dosing schedule to the extent of dosing for a 200 litre tank not for the full 240 litre which my tank is. All algae seems to have disappeared, but green spot algae has taken hold on my crypts, swords, aubias and some of the other species and also my red plants dont seem to be as vibrant with stunted and small leaf growth. But only specs on the glass hardly worth worrying about.
> 
> I did do i phosphate test, it indecated 40ppm which i dont think is right so i take those results with a pinch of salt.
> 
> Any advice hear?
> 
> Do I need to dose for the full 240 litres because I am under dosing? Is this a deficiency overall throughtout my tank?


I'm wondering that too.

Great overview! I'm sure I'll be referencing this thread often.. Very simple to understand. 

75 Gallon Fish Tank


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## Steven F

You only need about 1ppm of phosphate. I once has phosphate that were at least that high is not higher. It was caused by a nutrient deficiency. Once I fixed the deficencyphosphate level came down and stabilized.pants were only able to consume a very small amount of the Phosphate I was adding. Stunting might be caused by a boron deficiency. Small leave might be caused by low Zinclevels. 

Plant food UK micro nutrient package looks like it is the Casic CSM +B recipe Basically they buy the EDTA ingrediients from a company and add boron. It is the most popular micro nutrient. But I has 2 basic problems Iron EDTA at a PH above 6.5 turnstone iron oxide which is not soluble in water and not usable by plants. The other problem is that it doesn't have enough zinc. Since I learned that I took my CSM+b which didn't work in (my tank)and addd Fe DTPA (good to a PH of 7.5 and doesn't fully oxidize until the PH reaches 8. And I used the zinc from 0.001ppm to 0.02 PPM. It works now. GLA has also done this with their CSM +B Product(link) it might work better for you. 

Also the original EO recipe didn't have any recomendationts for sulfur, calcium, magnesium. All vital macro nutrients. Also there was no speck for the micro nutrient Chlorine. Normally tap water is treated with Chlorine to sterilize it. So most tap water has abundant levels of chloride salt. But if you are using DI or OR water you won't have any. So Keep these nutrients in mind if the GLA micro mix doesn't solve your problem you may have a macro problem


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## larikarobb1983

John N. said:


> *Overview*
> The Estimative Index (EI) coined by Tom Barr is a straightforward method for providing nutrients for a planted tank. The idea behind EI is simply introducing an excess amount of nutrients within an aquarium, throughout the week. This excess of nutrients floods the water column and feeds the plants. This is an estimative method; measuring specific nutrient uptake rates is not necessary and no test kits are involved. EI provides a surplus of nutrients that helps to prevents plant deficiencies, and allows plant growth to out compete algae growth.
> 
> The process of which this is done is simple. Each day fertilizers are dosed, and the nutrients are absorbed by the plants. With this method being estimative, we can dose fertilizers according to general guidelines suited for our particular setup (see below). At the end of the week, one performs a 50% water change to 'reset' the nutrient load in the entire system. And then the entire dosing schedule is repeated.
> 
> The primary fertilizers are the macro nutrients - Nitrogen (N), Phosphorous (P), Potassium (K), and the micro nutrients - trace elements (Plantex CSM+B, Flourish). Iron (Fe) can also be supplemented if necessary.
> 
> The Estimative Index method works best for a high light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to lower light setups, smaller quantities of fertilizers should be dosed in those instances.
> 
> *General Dosing Guideline for High Light and Well Planted Aquariums *
> _(wolfenxxx)_
> 
> *10- 20 Gallon Aquariums*
> +/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week
> +/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
> +/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *20-40 Gallon Aquariums *
> +/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *40-60 Gallon Aquariums*
> +/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *60 - 80 Gallon Aquariums*
> +/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- ¼ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- ¼ tsp (20ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium *
> +/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> +/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change
> 
> *Example Dosing Regime for 29 Gallon:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Note: *K2SO4 is not required for dosing unless you need the extra Potassium (K). This K is found in KN03 and KH2P04. Dosing these two according to above will yield sufficient K levels. Therefore, one will be fine dosing only KN03 and KH2P04, and Plantex. If one needs to increase their K levels with K2S04, add the same measured amount as KH2P04. For example, if one is dosing 1/2 tsp of KH2P04, then dose 1/2 tsp of K2S04. In true regards to EI, added excess K is not detrimental in any event.
> 
> *EI target ranges*
> CO2 range 25-30 ppm
> NO3 range 5-30 ppm
> K+ range 10-30 ppm
> PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
> Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
> GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
> KH range 3-5
> 
> See APC's Fertilator for additional dosing guides for Fe, Ca, Mg, etc.
> 
> *Where to buy fertilizers?*
> AquariumFertilizers.com can provide you with the necessary chemicals for dry and liquid dosing of the above. For micro - trace elements, Plantex CSM+B, Seachem Flourish, and Tropica AquaCare are equivalent to each other. Drsfostersmith and bigalsonline for the Seachem and Tropica brands.
> 
> One Pound of each of Aquarium Fertilizer/Greg Watson's Chemicals will last at least 1 year:
> Plantex CSM+B​Potassium Nitrate KN03​Monopotassium Phosphate KH2P04​Potassium Sulphate K2S04 _(optional)_​
> *Special Notes:*
> 
> Providing optimal CO2 levels of at least 30 ppm are necessary for plants to prosper and out-compete algae. If algae issue arise, remove all visible algae and infected leaves. Recheck CO2 levels, and possibly reduce and adjust the lighting period.
> 
> Direct dry dosing into the tank is perfectly fine. Many dosing straight into the tank, or they dissolve each chemical in water before adding.
> 
> Making a Liquid Stock of Plantex CSM+B is more often mixed into a bulk liquid solution since some find it more convenient to dose their trace elements this way. The recipe for this solution is 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex. This solution is stored in refrigerators to prevent mold from forming within the container. For making stock solutions for NPK refer here for a resourceful conversion calculator.
> 
> Small dosing teaspoons (smidgen, dash, pinch) can be found at Linen & Things, Bed Bath and Beyond, Wal-Mart, dollar stores, eBay and other online retailers. To identify the specific measurements of your smidgen, dash, pinch set, a 1/8 tsp should fill a ¼ tsp in 2 tries, 1/16 tsp in 4 tries, and a 1/32 tsp in 8 tries.
> 
> *Stick to a good dosing regime and your plants will flourish!*


hi there

so some people suggest also adding KCl to the mix when dosing IE? nust you add it or not? secondly i cannot find csm+b in RSA where i stay, what can you suggest? is it possible to make?mix your own?


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## larikarobb1983

larikarobb1983 said:


> hi there
> 
> so some people suggest also adding KCl to the mix when dosing IE? nust you add it or not? secondly i cannot find csm+b in RSA where i stay, what can you suggest? is it possible to make?mix your own?











Mixing dry aquarium fertilisers


What are dry fertilisers? Dry aquarium fertilizers refers to fertilizers that come as pure chemical salts. These salts dissolve in water to provide the necessary nutrients to plants. They are extremely concentrated as they come in pure chemical salt format. Most commercial fertilizers are made...




www.2hraquarist.com


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## mistergreen

larikarobb1983 said:


> hi there
> 
> so some people suggest also adding KCl to the mix when dosing IE? nust you add it or not? secondly i cannot find csm+b in RSA where i stay, what can you suggest? is it possible to make?mix your own?


You might not need to add KCl. KNO3 and KH2PO4 have K in them. I personally add extra potassium/K with potassium gluconate because my tank is naturally high in nitrate so I don't add too much KNO3.

Try to find a micronutrient mix for gardens. It should work fine. Remember to add a very small amount.


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