# New Walstad based tank 65g



## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Hi All,

Decided to completely redo my 65 gallon tank couple weeks ago and looking to use this platform as a means to document my progress as well as seek any advice from you all since I'm very new to planted aquariums!

*Tank:*: 48in x 18in x 18in Mr. Agua tank.
*Substrate:* 1 inch Nature's care organic potting mix with red clay inserts capped with 1 inch 
Petco black sand (imaginarium sand)
*Plants:* Dwarf Sag, Moneywort, Java Fern, Water Wisteria, Cryptocoryne Wendtii, ludwigia repens, Pigmy Chain Sword, Anubias nana petite, Frogtbit. 
*"Planned" Livestock:* 15 Rummynose Tetra, 10 Harlequin Rasbora, 15 Red Cherry Shrimp, 3 Nerite Snail, 3 Ottos (coming soon), 2 Pearl Gourami (coming after shrimp population established).


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

2 weeks in:

Ammonia 0
Ph 8.4+ Is this an issue being too high??
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5

- Originally it was leaching a lot of tannis but after a couple big water changes, it's reduced a lot and coming back slower. Haven't changed the water in about 10 days now.

- White jelly bacteria things forming on substrate but I heard this is normal/harmless? Removed most of it manually.

- Diatoms forming mainly on the leaves of the Crypts, lightly dusted off what I could with my hands.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Wow that scape base is really well done, i really really like it. 
Ph being 8+ i bet is fine. Do you plan to get Pressurized Co2? That would help the plants you have ALOT even though you sound as if its going to be a fairly low tech tank. But it looks like you have high light (Looks dont mean Anything btw) 
Parameters sound good, nice nice... The white bacteria is indeed normal, tannins are normal but what type of wood is that, looks ALMOST like cedar (like Tom barr used in this oh so similar scape) 
Diatoms will go away in a matter of weeks im sure. 

Also your images didn't work *on here* i recommend you use Imgur to upload images, click Share Link, then use the bottom left link.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Thank you!! My wife thought I went crazy rearranging those dragon stones for ever, haha. Glad someone appreciates it! Also thanks for the image tip, fixed it now.

I don't plan to use CO2, I tried that route and was just to high maintenance for me, hence why I was then drawn to the Walstad "low maintenance" school of thought. My light is the Finnex 24/7 planted+ which I think is considered low-medium light? However, I saw a thread somewhere measuring PAR of this light (Barr forum?) and I think with my somewhat shallow depth at 18" it's actually more towards the medium-high-ish end. Do you think I'm going to run into issues with that lighting and no CO2? I could always cut down the light output since it's adjustable in 10% increments for each red/blue/white spectrum I believe. Currently I'm doing 5 on, 3 off, then 4 on, to try to encourage faster carpet growth on the Pigmy Chain swords. So far only moneywort and wisteria is showing good growth, but it's only been 2 weeks.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

This is a good chart for figuring out how much light your Finnex light is giving you. A 48 inch long Planted Plus 24/7, at 18 inches, gives you about 60 PAR. That is high light, as far as CO2 requirements are concerned, so you do need CO2 with that much light. If you can raise it to about 23-24 inches, you should have a bit more than 40 PAR, and you can probably do without adding CO2.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Oh wow, that's a great chart, thanks!

I don't have the means to raise the light at the moment. But I can reduce it to 70% of max light which should in theory reduce it to the 40 PAR range. I'll try that now and see how it goes.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice start, good plants, and pretty fish. (I just hope those rocks and wood aren't covering the soil layer; they could smother the soil bacteria and create an anaerobic mess underneath.)

I'm glad that your Water Wisteria is growing well. That's a great plant that's a star grower in my own tanks.

An organic soil will give off plenty of CO2 for up to a year. 

I use LED lights over all of my 6 tanks, which are only 12 inches tall. No dimmer. Just fast-growing plants, including floating plants.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> Nice start, good plants, and pretty fish. (I just hope those rocks and wood aren't covering the soil layer; they could smother the soil bacteria and create an anaerobic mess underneath.)


Is it ok to have rocks and wood resting on nothing but inert gravel? I recall having stinking black areas under rocks that sat on nothing but coarse gravel. That was when I knew nothing about aquariums and made lots of mistakes.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Hm.. never thought about the rocks covering the soil. 

I started with the wood in the tank so the base is at the bottom (i.e. not resting on the substrate). The rock is resting on the substrate/partially in it; however, I used 20lbs of medium size gravel as a base to build that hill then 1 inch of soil and 1 inch of sand so it's not all pure dirt under there in hopes to avoid building up large anaerobic pockets. So at most the rocks are sitting on 1 inch of soil. But it sounds based on hoppycalif's experience even rocks resting on inert gravel can have issues. Man, I really don't want to move those rocks as it took forever to scape it just right per my eyes haha..

I was actually very close on getting MTS as I heard they help turn the soil layers as they burrow, but there are sooo many horror stories of overtaking tanks even under non-overfeed conditions that I ultimately decided to get nerites instead.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Drummberoy7816 said:


> Hm.. never thought about the rocks covering the soil.
> 
> I started with the wood in the tank so the base is at the bottom (i.e. not resting on the substrate). The rock is resting on the substrate/partially in it; however, I used 20lbs of medium size gravel as a base to build that hill then 1 inch of soil and 1 inch of sand so it's not all pure dirt under there in hopes to avoid building up large anaerobic pockets. So at most the rocks are sitting on 1 inch of soil. But it sounds based on hoppycalif's experience even rocks resting on inert gravel can have issues. Man, I really don't want to move those rocks as it took forever to scape it just right per my eyes haha..
> 
> I was actually very close on getting MTS as I heard they help turn the soil layers as they burrow, but there are sooo many horror stories of overtaking tanks even under non-overfeed conditions that I ultimately decided to get nerites instead.


Idk... In my Little experience of placing hardscape (large), i didn't have the hardscape in the tank Long enough (1/yr plus) to notice the build up of junk under it. Only problem i could predict that would actually EFFECT things in your tank is when you move the hardscape in over a 1 1/2 at least, you'll have sulfur buildup and it will smell like eggs when you lift it. This is simply due to gas exchange issues. 
But other than that which is a long term issue, i do not see a problem, and that issue can be easily fixed.

If you do get MTS, you can kiss that beautiful slope goodbye i know that for sure, try nerite snails, if you want something exotic, AquaticArts.com sells some rare verities of nerites. Another algae eating machine you could try are Oto's.

edit* if your hardscape is sitting on 1" of Anything i wouldn't worry at all. _That's just me though._

Unless its one inch of pure lava. Then i would worry your hardscape would melt


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> Idk... In my Little experience of placing hardscape (large), i didn't have the hardscape in the tank Long enough (1/yr plus) to notice the build up of junk under it. Only problem i could predict that would actually EFFECT things in your tank is when you move the hardscape in over a 1 1/2 at least, you'll have sulfur buildup and it will smell like eggs when you lift it. This is simply due to gas exchange issues.
> But other than that which is a long term issue, i do not see a problem, and that issue can be easily fixed.
> 
> If you do get MTS, you can kiss that beautiful slope goodbye i know that for sure, try nerite snails, if you want something exotic, AquaticArts.com sells some rare verities of nerites. Another algae eating machine you could try are Oto's.
> ...


Yeah, it just seems like MTS is too much of a risk. Also I think they may up root my pigmy chain swords especially since they have not been established.

I do have 3 zebra and 1 tiger nerite snails as of now, they look awesome! I'm just dreading the time when they lay those ugly sesame seed eggs on my beautiful wood, or glass.. unless I'm lucky enough to have gotten all 4 males


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

I have MTS and I can't say that they are bad. They eat whatever gets into the substrate and fish can't pick it out, burrow through it so it doesn't get anaerobic so easy and I like how they look  But yes, they will definitely make every hill or slope flat and might uproot some plants until fully rooted. Despite this I would recommend them, they are a really great cleaning crew.. 

I have also nerites, but to my eyes, they are absolutely boring snails - often hidden who knows where, so I see them only sometimes, don't do much, will die if there isn't enough algae. And if they fall on their back (which can be a lot), they sometimes can't turn around and just lay there until you help them, or if you can't find them,well..opportunity to purchase another one


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Well drummeberboy, im following this thread so plz keep this updated  your tank design is currently my #1 fav in any NPT ive seen.

Following!


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

mysiak said:


> I have MTS and I can't say that they are bad. They eat whatever gets into the substrate and fish can't pick it out, burrow through it so it doesn't get anaerobic so easy and I like how they look  But yes, they will definitely make every hill or slope flat and might uproot some plants until fully rooted. Despite this I would recommend them, they are a really great cleaning crew..
> 
> I have also nerites, but to my eyes, they are absolutely boring snails - often hidden who knows where, so I see them only sometimes, don't do much, will die if there isn't enough algae. And if they fall on their back (which can be a lot), they sometimes can't turn around and just lay there until you help them, or if you can't find them,well..opportunity to purchase another one


I was wondering what was wrong with my nerites as they are not very active as I imaged.. For some reason I thought they would be super active cleaners, but couple of them have just been camping in the same spot for hours on end.

I think I like my hill too much to risk it with MTS!


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> Well drummeberboy, im following this thread so plz keep this updated  your tank design is currently my #1 fav in any NPT ive seen.
> 
> Following!


Will do and thanks for the kind words Dutch!

I haven't had good luck with planted tanks in the past, mostly because I never did all the things I needed to in a high-tech set up (water changes, water testing, planting livestock choices, lighting, CO2 upkeep, etc.). I think I went pretty all in with this Walstad method set up (rich soil, heavily planted from the start with fast growers and floating plants, decent live stock, cleaning crew, water tests few times a week, etc.).


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Oh, and just realized I never answered your wood question - it's Manzanita purchased from this site: http://manzanita.com/stumps/page2/page2.htm


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Drummberoy7816 said:


> I was wondering what was wrong with my nerites as they are not very active as I imaged.. For some reason I thought they would be super active cleaners, but couple of them have just been camping in the same spot for hours on end.
> 
> I think I like my hill too much to risk it with MTS!


I purchased nerites mainly to clean the glass, but that is probably the only surface in the tank which they pretty much ignore.. I see them, and hear their teeth scratching, mostly on my 3D background and sometimes on plants. I must admit that I am a bit disappointed with their work, but I like how they look..

My second favorite snail after MTS is pink ramshorn. Some people hate them, but they are nice cleaning crew as well and very active. Interestingly, I can't keep them breeding or alive for too long in my big tank. For some reason there isn't enough food for them (if they have plenty of food, their shell is nice clean and smooth). In my tiny tank it's another story, I rehome tens of them every few weeks - probably too little competition for them, so they have all the food they need and want


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

i agree pink ramshorns are also my 1st fav.
and mysiak i have the same problem, in my 40b they do nothing and die off but in my 5 fluval they thrive??? xD


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Update with some pics:
- Wisteria and moneywort still growing amazingly. Frogbits multiplying and roots growing out longer. 
- Java fern seems to getting some brown spots on the top the leaves, but at the same time the under sides are growing a lot of roots and new ferns are forming.. so not sure if it's in good condition or bad.. 
- some pigmy chain swords are melting very severely, but it's off that it's only affecting some and not others as you can see in the pic that some are melting and others still bright green.
- unfortunately, all 3 ottos seem to have died/disappeared. I rushed acclimated them as I had to head out of town this weekend so it's probably my fault on that.
- Seeing more pond snails pop up... crushed the ones I saw.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Gosh that looks so nice,

Thanks for the pics they ROCK!


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Quick 1 month comparison/update:

*Overall: * Tannin initially was pretty high in the first week, couple water changes helped, and now it seemed to have stabilized and starting to clear up some. Just weekly top offs for the last 2 weeks. Diatoms/brown algae have died down on the leaves which is great. Still have the white mold/fungus things on/in the substrate. Water perimeters remain stable through out the whole month with Ammonia 0 - 0.25, PH 8.0 - 8.2, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5-10.

*Plants:*
- Water Wisteria: About 4 to 5 times growth in one month! I already had to chop some of the top off and replant as it was reaching the surface.
- Moneywort: Growing well. The ones that are fully in the lighted zone almost doubled in height. The ones are in the shade of the branch grew maybe 40%?
- Crypts: Hasn't really grown a lot height wise (maybe 25%?) but has more new leaves growing out the bottom. Looking really healthy still.
- Dwarf Sag: initially had some melt but now growing well, and thicker now as you as can tell form the pic, and few of the plants are sending off major runners. 
- Frogbits: Growing like mad. Initially only occupied about 1/4 of the little circle fence, now it's about 120% with it sending offshoots outside of the circle! Pic below.
- Pigmy Chain Sword: About 30% of the Pigmy Chain Swords has melted and I have pulled out, the rest hasn't grown and showing some minor melting. Looking at the tiny size of these (0.5 inch - 1 inch above substrate), they probably demand higher light/CO2 for them to grow well.
- Jave Fern: Can't tell from the picture but it's definitely not doing well. About 40% of the leaves have melted, not a lot of new growth either. Remaining leaves are starting to brown. I've never had good luck with Java Fern despite the reputation of it being easy to grow. Maybe my frogbits is taking all the nutrients in the water column since they are so fast growing?

*Livestock:*
- Rasboras and Rummynose Tetras still doing well.
- Red Cherry Shrimp: Started with 15, now maybe only 3-4 remain.. I think I added them too early with my tank not having any algae built up and I did not over feed. Don't know.
- Nerite snails: bought 4, 1 died. Other 3 barely move but look pretty 
- Pond snails: few here and there, still under control.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Looks superb so far, cant wait to see it truly fill in.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Frogbits pic.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> Looks superb so far, cant wait to see it truly fill in.


Thanks! I'm thinking of backup plans for the foreground plant and Java Ferns. More Dwarf Sag could be an option as it's proving to grow well in my tank, but then it takes away the contrast of having them as the "skirt" of the hill. Dwarf Hairgrass also an option but I heard they grow pretty tall/fast once established.. don't want that much work to keep them trimmed low.

No idea on Java Fern replacement yet. Any suggestions? Something with max size around 6-8 inches?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth, and the tank needs cleaning.

For example, the frogbit picture shows an oily scum on the surface. You can remove it by scooping it up with a cup. That oil is blocking oxygen entry into the water, etc. I'm not sure that fish could survive in this and it's not helping the plants.

I also would gently poke the substrate with a long sharp object (opened up paper clip, long and thin nail, etc). The soil may be so anaerobic that it is inhibiting plant growth. Doing this every day for a few days will introduce oxygenated water into the substrate and may get better plant growth.

Those rows of little plants in the foreground continue to bother me. Here, you have a big 67 gal tank that could accommodate some big gorgeous rooted plants (e.g., Red Tiger Lotus, Amazon swordplant, _Aponogeton boivinianus_ and you have filled half of it with tiny plants that continue to struggle-overwhelmed by their too rich soil environment, grasping for light from far, far above under a surface of oily scum. This planting pattern might work out eventually, but it is far more suitable for a 20 gal long.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth, and the tank needs cleaning.
> 
> For example, the frogbit picture shows an oily scum on the surface. You can remove it by scooping it up with a cup. That oil is blocking oxygen entry into the water, etc. I'm not sure that fish could survive in this and it's not helping the plants.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips!

I assure you the Wisteria and frogbits are growing more so then I want them to . At this rate I have to trim/scoop them out every other week or so. I'm very okay with slower/moderate growth as long as they are healthy, which most are besides Java and PCS, since the goal is ultimately low maintenance.

I have been poking the substrate every now and then and bubbles still come up most of the time. I probably to increase the frequency of doing that.

The top oil looking thing is actually particles from the white fungus thing. When I knock it loose from the substrate, it becomes a ton of tiny particles floating everywhere so I stopped trying to remove them. I just did a surface netting to get most out recently, but it's really spawning from the white fungus that grows. I've heard that it's normal and it will go away on it's own in time? Should I try to knock them loose from the substrate every time they appear?

As far as the foreground plant go, I definitely want something low-ish (under 6 inch), just preference on the look I want to achieve. I agree that the pigmy chain sword that I got is not a good choice haha. It is a matter of time before they all melt away I'm sure of it.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ails.php?id=77&category=genus&spec=Sagittaria works very well under the amount of light you have, and, while it does get to be 2 inches or so high, it quickly makes a complete carpet, hiding the substrate. I had great success with it with low light, but with more light it becomes a noxious weed for me. This was with a 65 gallon tank, 24 inches high.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Drummberoy7816 said:


> Thanks for the tips!
> 
> The top oil looking thing is actually particles from the white fungus thing. When I knock it loose from the substrate, it becomes a ton of tiny particles floating everywhere so I stopped trying to remove them. I just did a surface netting to get most out recently, but it's really spawning from the white fungus that grows. I've heard that it's normal and it will go away on it's own in time? Should I try to knock them loose from the substrate every time they appear?


Since this is a new setup, I would be inclined to shake out the fungus and clean up the water surface. The particles represents a concentrated reservoir of nutrients. Removing it is easier than changing water.

Also, surface scum is often a favorite habitat for mycobacteria, the cause of mycobacteriosis (Fish TB). If you are going to do any tank cleaning at all, I would start by removing surface scum or whatever floats on the surface.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

Hoppy - That is what I have currently but only around the base of that hill, and I agree! It is growing well, in the month since planting it's become fuller and some are sending our multiple runners. I am thinking of getting more of it to use as a carpet, but it's quite pricey.. 

dwalstad - Sounds good. The look of the white fungus on the substrate was bother me anyways, I'll remove it and do a big water change.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Drummberoy7816 said:


> Hoppy - That is what I have currently but only around the base of that hill, and I agree! It is growing well, in the month since planting it's become fuller and some are sending our multiple runners. I am thinking of getting more of it to use as a carpet, but it's quite pricey..


Keep an eye on the For Sale forum here, or post a request for some Sagittaria subulata there. You might find a better price and some better quality plants.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

3 month update. The tank is really maturing with more debris and what not for the shrimps to munch on. After first batch died, the second batch of shrimp is looking very good after 2 weeks and I saw couple babies today! Also saw a baby guppy as well! 

Plant wise the water wisteria is taking over the right side of my tank, giving a great jungle look over there and plenty of hiding spots for the guppies and shrimp. Moneywort and dwarf sag growing moderately, frogbits I’m scooping out every week. Crypts have unfortunately started to melt slowly with holes in them, not sure if it’s the pond snails that’s eating them? Or just insufficient lighting from the frogbits blocking out light. Java fern is slowing dying as well. 

Pond snails are becoming a pain, multiplying like crazy and picking them out every week. Got 5 assasin snails but they’re not doing much damage on them. Might try feeding less.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Drummberoy7816 said:


> 3 month update. Pond snails are becoming a pain, multiplying like crazy and picking them out every week. Got 5 assasin snails but they're not doing much damage on them. Might try feeding less.


Your tank has turned out really nice. Good work!

I wouldn't worry too much about snails. They seem to reach an equilibrium at some point. I have pond snails, Ramshorn snails, MTS in all my tanks and outdoor tubs.


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## Drummberoy7816 (Apr 20, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> D
> Your tank has turned out really nice. Good work!
> I wouldn't worry too much about snails. They seem to reach an equilibrium at some point. I have pond snails said:
> 
> ...


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