# [Wet Thumb Forum]-weird water chemistry



## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

my water has done something very odd, and i need some help trying to figure out what's causing this and what to do about it, if it's not too much trouble. 

i usually have a pH of about 6.6 in my tank. the water is 6.8 out of the tap, and with injected co2 it usually hangs around 6.6, maybe on occasion dropping to 6.4. well, i've been having some plant issues, o2 issues, and algae issues in the tank recently. so i've been trying to deal with that. 

the first thing i did was turn off the co2. it's been off for about three weeks now. this was done to combat the low o2 levels that were occurring in the tank (fish visibly stressed and gasping at surface). i thought that my needle valve had gone haywire at first and was dumping co2 into the tank, but nope, it's fine. 

so now the tank's been with out co2 for a while, and the plants are seriously suffering from it. some of the larger sword species are fine, but all my stem plants are dying. 

the algae issue has been an on going battle with this tank. mainly because my phosphate level is 1ppm out of the tap. so i've been using phosguard to get rid of some of it with good success. when i did a water change on sunday, i replaced the phosguard. this is the only change that's been made in the tank other than turning off the co2 in months. 

okay so now on to the real problem. i had a die off of corys last night, so i went to my lfs to get some help on that one. they had these odd red spots all over their bodies. well, they tested my water, and everything was fine but my pH. it was reading a 4.5-5. it was tested four times using three different test kits, and all gave the same result. well, this is the major problem. 

at first i thought that it might be because we've had a lot of rain here recently, and that sometimes does lower pH levels in the tap water. but when i got home i tested the pH from the tap, and it's reading 6.8 as usual. it has to be the phosguard then, but i don't understand why. i've been using it for months with no problems, and suddenly now there's a major drop in pH. 

so what can i do? i'm also worried about raising the pH too fast and harming the fish, although my discus don't seem to be bothered by the change at all. i'm even concerned about doing water changes now as the pH is so discrepant. 

help? please? what's going on???

tank stats:
90 gallon
pH usually 6.6, now 4.5
readings are 0,0,20
30% water changes three times a week
Gh 3
Kh 3
fluorite bed under medium river rock, one large piece of driftwood. 
heavily planted
tank inhabitants right now: 4 4" discus, 25 cardinals, 3 3" clown loaches. in qt or hospital tanks waiting to go in: 2 3" discus, 2 2" clowns, 5 c. melanistius.

anything i missed?

thanks,
amy


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

my water has done something very odd, and i need some help trying to figure out what's causing this and what to do about it, if it's not too much trouble. 

i usually have a pH of about 6.6 in my tank. the water is 6.8 out of the tap, and with injected co2 it usually hangs around 6.6, maybe on occasion dropping to 6.4. well, i've been having some plant issues, o2 issues, and algae issues in the tank recently. so i've been trying to deal with that. 

the first thing i did was turn off the co2. it's been off for about three weeks now. this was done to combat the low o2 levels that were occurring in the tank (fish visibly stressed and gasping at surface). i thought that my needle valve had gone haywire at first and was dumping co2 into the tank, but nope, it's fine. 

so now the tank's been with out co2 for a while, and the plants are seriously suffering from it. some of the larger sword species are fine, but all my stem plants are dying. 

the algae issue has been an on going battle with this tank. mainly because my phosphate level is 1ppm out of the tap. so i've been using phosguard to get rid of some of it with good success. when i did a water change on sunday, i replaced the phosguard. this is the only change that's been made in the tank other than turning off the co2 in months. 

okay so now on to the real problem. i had a die off of corys last night, so i went to my lfs to get some help on that one. they had these odd red spots all over their bodies. well, they tested my water, and everything was fine but my pH. it was reading a 4.5-5. it was tested four times using three different test kits, and all gave the same result. well, this is the major problem. 

at first i thought that it might be because we've had a lot of rain here recently, and that sometimes does lower pH levels in the tap water. but when i got home i tested the pH from the tap, and it's reading 6.8 as usual. it has to be the phosguard then, but i don't understand why. i've been using it for months with no problems, and suddenly now there's a major drop in pH. 

so what can i do? i'm also worried about raising the pH too fast and harming the fish, although my discus don't seem to be bothered by the change at all. i'm even concerned about doing water changes now as the pH is so discrepant. 

help? please? what's going on???

tank stats:
90 gallon
pH usually 6.6, now 4.5
readings are 0,0,20
30% water changes three times a week
Gh 3
Kh 3
fluorite bed under medium river rock, one large piece of driftwood. 
heavily planted
tank inhabitants right now: 4 4" discus, 25 cardinals, 3 3" clown loaches. in qt or hospital tanks waiting to go in: 2 3" discus, 2 2" clowns, 5 c. melanistius.

anything i missed?

thanks,
amy


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## George Willms (Jul 28, 2004)

what are you using for your filtration? With a ph and kh of 6.6 and 3 respectively it doesn't seem as though you would even need to inject co2. How much light do you have? What have you done as far as fertilizing? If you are running a high-light tank, you want the phosphate that is in your tap. I run my tanks at levels at least 1.0 ppm phosphate and some even higher with few problems. So I would start by removing the phosguard and continuing with your normal maintenance routine. I might even consider increasing the frequency of water changes a bit until you get things back to being balanced. Get back to me on the questions I asked you and we'll see what else we can help you with.

George

5.5: mid-tech and maintenance, 29: high-tech, mid maintenance, 45 high: low-tech, low maintenance.

More complete tank specs in profile


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

filtration is two fluval 404's, lighting is a jbj 4x65 with 2 65w 10K and 2 55w plant grow. 

the plants are really taking a hit with out the co2, my sunset hygro looks pathetic. 

as for ferts, all i do is use flourish and an iron supplement. i've seen no other issues with ferts to require anything else. 

the phosphate in the tank was giving me huge algae issues. i had gw, hair algae, and probably every other type you can think of. water changes, black outs, nothing was working. i reduced the phosphate level, and everything just about disappeared.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

With a pH of 4.5 you can't have any KH in the tank at all.

I would be surprised if the problem is the phosguard, but I've been surprised before. You can test the phosguard. Remove it, rinse it completely to get out all the tank water, let it sit for a half hour or so with tap water in it. At the same time, let a similar amount of tap water sit in a bowl as control. After a half hour test the pH of the water in the bowl and the water in the phosguard. If the water in the phosguard has a slightly lower pH, then that is probably caused by a little water left over from the tank. If the water in the phosguard has a much lower pH, then the phosguard might be the problem.

My guess is that the driftwood -- more precisely, fungus in the driftwood -- is causing the problem. Something is releasing a fairly strong acid into you water and the wood seems like the most likely candidate.

If your tank has been running at such a low pH for very long then it has probably wiped out the nitrifying bacteria in your filters. Fortunately, ammonia is largely non-toxic at low pH. Unfortunately, if it is present then it will become more toxic when the pH goes up.

I would remove the driftwood then do a series of large water changes spaced out over two or three days.

Good luck.


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

As a last note, I doubt that phosphate in your tap water was at the root of your algae problems. After you have the pH problem figured out then you can look for other ways to deal with algae.

Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## George Willms (Jul 28, 2004)

I also don't think that level of phosphate should be a problem. In a tank with healthy fast-growing plants that is actually a desirable level, you won't have to dose phosphates! You may want to add a little potassium to your fertilizing regime though. I don't know why I didn't think of the wood being the cause. How long has it been in the tank?

George

5.5: mid-tech and maintenance, 29: high-tech, mid maintenance, 45 high: low-tech, low maintenance.

More complete tank specs in profile


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

the wood has been in the tank since it was set up, which was about 6 months ago. the pH issue has only happened in the last few days, it has not been a long term issue, which is why i'm thinking it's the phosguard. the wood would have caused some pH drop a while back, would it not? and to cause that severe a drop in pH in only a few days something must be acting on it. 

i need to retest the Kh and Gh levels. the readings of 3 are my normal readings, which i have consistently gotten over time. right now, well i'm not sure what they are. i'll test them and post those results. 

would there be any serious adverse effect on the fish to raise the pH significantly again? such large pH fluctuations in a short period of time, i'm concerned about stressing them too much.


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## George Willms (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm not sure, but it seems unlikely to me that the wood would cause such a sudden change after being in there for that long of a time. Roger may know better, but that's what I think. I personally would start out doing a few 25-30% water changes over the course of a few days, say one a day for 3 days, to get the pH up more towards your normal readings before I started doing larger water changes. 

Do what roger says with the phosguard, maybe you got a contaminated bag, who knows? You can't really eliminate the possibility of it until you check it.

George

5.5: mid-tech and maintenance, 29: high-tech, mid maintenance, 45 high: low-tech, low maintenance.

More complete tank specs in profile


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Amy,

If the pH drop were caused by the wood then it wouldn't be the wood itself that caused the problem, but fungus growing *in* the wood. You wouldn't see the effect until after the wood was in your tank for a while and the fungus flourished. You also would never see the fungus unless it went into a fruiting phase.

Like I said, you can test the phosguard. It's a product that has been around for years and it doesn't usually act like a strong acid. Phosguard is made and sold in large quantities, so such a large swing in product characteristics doesn't seem likely. Possible, but not likely.


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

i'm going to remove the wood today and see if that helps. 

a question about the wood - is there a certain type of wood that would have this problem, or is it a random thing? i have another piece of wood of the same type (some sort of african i believe), but now i'm wary of possibly putting it in any of my tanks if it might cause this issue.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Amy,

I think a number of people have reported problems recently with Mopani wood, which may be the African wood you're talking about. I don't know if there's any unique problem with Mopani. Similar problems (not as extreme as yours) have been reported for years. Mopani seems to be popping up these days and I think it might just be because the wood is widely available.


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

update: still no pH reading. 

i removed the wood on friday, the 31st and have been doing 20% water changes, 5 in a week. but i'm still not getting any reading. there's nothing in the tank that can be causing this, mainly because there's nothing in the tank other than fish, plants and gravel/fluorite. there are no decorations, wood, or anything in the tank at this point. so there's nothing in there that can be causing the pH to be staying low. i'm keeping the co2 off for now, but i'm itching to turn it back on as my plants are melting away. 

i'm going to go tonight and try to find a low pH test kit and see if the reading has changed at all, but i'm doubtful that i'll find it. 

does anyone know what the problem is? should i keep up water changes? how long will this take to get the pH back into readable range?


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## George Willms (Jul 28, 2004)

I would start doing larger water changes. How old is you pH kit?

George

5.5: mid-tech and maintenance, 29: high-tech, mid maintenance, 45 high: low-tech, low maintenance.

More complete tank specs in profile


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

will larger water changes shock the fish too much? i'm trying to avoid that. 

this pH kit is about 6 months old. i got it in may i think.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

What dechlorinator do you use? I seem to recall someone having pH problems and it being traced to the dechlor.


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

what about chemicals to rise the kh as buffer to the ph


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

i mean something to rise the kh and as i know when the kh is high enough the ph would not drop suddenly. or the expensive way - ph controller


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

i use amquel, although i use it in all my tanks and i have been for quite some time. my other tanks are showing lower pH, but they're at about 6.0 which i'm attributing to driftwood.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Amy,

What do you mean by "no pH reading?"

It's very possible that you have just not changed enough water. You changed 90 gallons of water out of a 90 gallon tank, but since you did it in five 20% changes about a third of the original tank water is still there.

You had some kind of strong acid in the water and about a third of what was there to start with is still there. You have to dilute it to the point where it no longer consumes the KH in the water you add. Your tap water has a fairly low KH, so it isn't unreasonable for it to take a lot of water changes to get the pH back up.

You could use baking soda to accelerate that process. Personally I wouldn't worry to much about shocking the fish with a pH change. Just make the change is small steps over the period of a couple days. Otherwise, you could keep up the water changes and maybe -- as George suggested -- use larger changes.

All aquariums are subject to some acidification. It usually isn't a problem because of regular water changes and reaasonably high KH. The acidification is due at least in part to nitrification. The conversion of ammonia to nitrate frees a lot of hydrogen ions and given time can have a measurable impact on the KH in the tank. The kind of pH crash you have had should never happen because of normal nitrication, but could you have done something back before you noticed the problem that introduced a lot of ammonia to the tank?

Incidentally, you might want to keep an eye on ammonia levels in your tank now. With pH as low as it is the nitrifying bacteria are at least not active and may be gone. Fortunately, at that pH the ammonia -- if present -- isn't very toxic.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

i mean that i'm not getting a reading on my pH kit, it only goes as far down as 6.0, and it's not even registering anything on it. i'm going today to search for a low range one, but i don't have much hope that i'll find it. 

there was nothing different done in the tank, or added, in at least 3 months. okay wait, one plant was added. that's it though, no fish, no wood, no change in products. the pH just crashed. 

i too was thinking about the bacterial issue. it had been suggested to me on another board that to combat an unknown illness in my discus i should separate the one ill one and lower the pH as bacteria can't survive in very acidic levels. now that i'm seeing those low levels in the main tank, i'm concerned about the bacteria in the filters and if i'll be seeing ammonia spikes. i think that with the amount of water changes that are done on the tank anyway (3 times a week, 30% each is standard on that tank) it should be okay, although i might see low level ammonia for a while. 

i think i'm going to try the baking soda to raise the Kh. i had been thinking of that actually, because i'm sure that the Kh and Gh are probably 0 right now (i haven't tested those yet). so i figure that raising them would help the pH stabilize a little. 

thanks for the help everyone, this tank is going to kill me!!!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Your GH should be close to to the 3 degrees oo you get from the tap . Whatever acidifies the tank is unlikely to change the GH. If the KH is still 4.5 or lower then by definition there will be no KH.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

okay i tested the Gh and it's still at 3. Kh is 0. so i'm going to use baking soda to raise it, and hopefully raise the pH in the process.

for baking soda, it's 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons for 1 degree of Kh, correct? so i would need at least 9 teaspoons added in a water change to get my 90 gallons up to 3 degrees? is that right?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Amy,

According to Neil Frank, it's 1.1 teaspoons of bicarb per 50 gallons to get 1 degree KH, so 2 teaspoon would raise the KH in 90 gallons of water by 1 degree. If you want to go up three degrees, then it's 6 teaspoons.

The acid that is already in the water will fight you, so it should take more than 2 tsp/degree at first. You are probably best off adding 2 teaspoons or less at a time and waiting a few hours between additions, testing as you go.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

okay continuation to the water saga...

everything had been going fine in the tank for a while. i used baking soda to increase Kh, and the pH eventually got back to normal. it did seem that the wood was the culprit, and once it was out of there and the Kh raised, things were fine. 

but now things are weird again. the pH has dropped below 6 again, Kh is at 0, Gh 2. i even had an ammonia reading of 1ppm yesterday! so i did a 60% water change, cleaned out one filter that was really clogged, and started doing more testing. turns out that the Kh of my tap water is 0 (maybe 1, the test kit turned with the first drop, i'm assuming this to be 0)

here's the current readings:

tank:
pH below 6
Kh 0
Gh 2
ammonia .25 (i'm assuming all the bacteria have died due to the drop in pH again, thus effectively un-cycling the tank). 

tap:
pH 6.8
Kh 0
Gh 2

now there's nothing in the tank that could be directly causing a drop in pH. there's nothing in the tank besides fish and plants, no decorations or wood of any kind. 

i'm guessing that the drop in pH was caused by the Kh of the tap water, but what can i do about this? i started adding baking soda again to try to stabilize this, but i'm really thinking that if this keeps happening i might have to invest in a r/o unit, although i really would prefer not to. 

any suggestions as to what's going on now? this is driving me crazy, and i've got new discus on the way!!! i've got some time with them in qt, but i want to be sure that the tank is stable before they join it.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

The 0 KH in your tap water is the main problem. KH is the only thing that buffers the water and keeps the pH from going either high or low. Anything at all that creates acids will cause the pH to drop through the floor. Without KH there's nothing to stop it. CO2 in water is an acid and it's produced by all the fauna in your tank. Nitrifying bacteria create acids. Also, there are organic acids that are produced by decomposition.

You can add a little crushed coral, aragonite, limestone or marble to the tank in a mesh bag to keep the KH up. You can add the same to your filter. If you do that then you will need to monitor the KH and remove the marble from the tank when the KH is high enough. You should also check the water you use for water changes and make sure that its KH is high enough before you add it. Use baking soda to raise the KH, or do the marble treatment on the water you use before a water change. The marble treatment will also raise the GH in your tank. That should improve conditiions for just about any plant you are trying to grow.

You would have to do all this with RO water, too.

If CO2 is the major part of the acid in the tank then you might be able to increase the pH by aerating the tank, increasing the circulation and/or adjusting the filter outlets to get more surface agitation.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

the co2 in this tank isn't that much of a factor. pH is usually 6.8 with out it, 6.6 with it, so it doesn't have all that much of an acidic effect. 

i have crushed coral and tried that approach once before to raise Kh with no success. i'm not sure if i didn't use enough or what, because i never saw an increase in the Kh levels. how much should i be using in a 90 to raise the Kh to at least 3, 4 would be better? i went very conservative with the coral because i was concerned about a Kh spike and pH fluctuations, so maybe i didn't use enough.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

A RO unit is not going to solve your problems. You practically have RO water out of the tap just like I do.

Put crushed coral in the filter. At least half a pound. Get the finest crushed coral you can. Go to a shop that sells salt water fish and see if they have coral sand. That's what I use in my filters. I also use calcium carbonate to raise both the kH and gH since my water is void of either. And of course I have to add magnesium also. I used to use baking soda and still do use a bit but I found that using baking soda to raise the kH seemed to have only a temporary effect on my water whereas using calcium carbonate doesn't. I don't know why this is but I have observed it in a couple of my tanks.

The problem is with no kH the CO2 can have a huge effect. And just drawing the water out of the tank to test it could cause the pH to rise a bit before or during the test. If there is no kH to bind the CO2 then it escapes the water very easily. You might want to try putting an air-stone in the tank for a while and see what that does to the pH.










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.

See my planted tank FAQ at http://members.dsl-only.net/~rex/


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## Amy (Mar 1, 2003)

the co2 has been turned off in the tank for over a month while i've been dealing with this pH issue. my plants are looking really bad, but i don't want to do any more damage with the added co2. i've also had an air stone in there going 24 hours for at least 6 weeks, with no effect. 

i have some crushed coral and i'll put it the tank for the time being until i can get to the store for the coral sand. there's 8 inches of snow on the ground here, and another 8 on it's way this afternoon, so it might have to wait a few days.


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