# Diana Walstad and discus?



## growingwonders (Feb 12, 2010)

With all of the water changes needed, for keeping discus, will there be enough nutrients, locked in the soil layer, for continual plant growth? What about plants that feed from the water column and not their roots? Does anyone keep discus in a Walstad tank? Do you find the need to dose any fertilizers, iron, or other nutrients?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I set up a 90 gallon Walstad demonstration tank at my local aquarium store. About 6 months later, the owner decided it looked so good he wanted to put discus in it. He raised the temperature to 88F and dosed it with a bunch of parasiticides. This killed about 1/3 of the plant species, but the rest survived and continue to look good two years later.


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## growingwonders (Feb 12, 2010)

Thank you for the reply. Does he dose with fertilizers? Does he change 50% of the water, weekly?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

No, he barely maintains the tank at all. I don't know how often he does water changes, but I doubt it is weekly. From what I know about discus, this is *not* recommended for juveniles, but his mature fish seem to be OK. The stocking rate is low.


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## growingwonders (Feb 12, 2010)

From my research, juvenile discus require multiple daily water changes or every other day, at the very least and adults should have 50% minimum, weekly. I think it is extreme, if the tank is balanced, but apparently, even if the Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites are where they should be, because discus are without scales, the are very susceptible to the normal accumulation of bacteria and organics, that will occur, even in a well maintained, cycled, and minimally stocked aquarium.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm not sure what you mean by the Walstad tank tank but when I had my shop I had two very heavely planted tanks with Discus. I used to bring in roughly two dozen new Discus in the 3" size at least once per month. and maintained a population of about 18 Discus in each tank. When I got down to 12 in both tanks it was time to order a dozen new discus.

As far as water changes I did 25% once per week. Which is also when I did my federalizing for the plants. Temperature was at 84 degrees for the tank with the discus I had for a while and it was 86to 88 degrees in the tank that got the new discus. 

Both of these tanks were on CO2 and any fish losses I encountered were in the first three day after shipment. When ever I measured the Nitrogen compounds my reading were virtually 0 on the test kit I used. I believe this was because the plants were using it up almost as fast as they could be created in the tank.

I'll research your Walston method and see how close it came to my system.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't see any reason why Discus and the El Natural method would be incompatible. Someday, my current stock of Rainbowfish and Blue-spotted Sunfish may die out. At that time, I could set up a tank for Discus and see how it goes. My fish are still doing fine, so it may be awhile.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I just read some of the Walstad information and will say my system had similarities but was not as self supporting. I did have CO2 which I could have eliminated if I wanted slower plant growth. I also dosed liquid fertilizers with each water change. With some Discus breeders doing daily water changes though my 25% weekly was nothing in comparison. I wonder now how the Discus would have been without or even less frequent water changes than I was giving them?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

TropTrea said:


> I wonder now how the Discus would have been without or even less frequent water changes than I was giving them?


Excellent question. 

Today, I am going to take a stab at the answer. If you are Discus _breeder _with a bare tank filled with juveniles, you probably do need to change substantial amounts of water every single day. This may be for both ammonia and hormone removal. Otherwise, the fish tank will become a septic tank.

However, a planted home tank with display Discus is an entirely different matter. The plants will prevent ammonia buildup, the main culprit. Plants probably do better than a biological filter in removing ammonia (my book, pages 107- 112). First, plants _vastly_ prefer ammonia uptake over nitrates, so they will be taking it up constantly. Second, plant uptake of ammonia does not generate nitrates and acidify the water like biological filtration does.

If the home tank has decent plant growth, Discus should do very well without frequent water changes.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

dwalstad from your comments I then assume that what your referring to is maintaining the proper balance between flora and fauna which will determine the need for water changes. This does not sound to me any different than any other fish tank. The thing with discus is you may want to the ratio of fish per gallon a little lower to reduce the need for frequent water changes.


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## growingwonders (Feb 12, 2010)

From my past experience, I assumed that the discus were in need of water change to accommodate the amount of food and waste, from having to feed them so often and so much, since they eat slowly and beef heart feeds are messy. What I found, by reading and asking questions, on the discus forums, is that, even if the plants and stocking level keep the Ammonia levels at 0, the water changes are still advised. The reason being, is that discus are without scales and the accumulation of dissolved organics and bacteria are problematic for them. The minimum recommended amount of water change I was told, was 50% a week, assuming the Ammonia and their byproducts were kept low, by careful stocking, good filtration, and plant growth. Even at 50% weekly, it was said the discus would likely be smaller, then those in a bare bottom tank, with 150% weekly water changes, though the fish would still be in perfect health. Personally, I don't dispute this information, though I find the scenario obnoxious and I think, if they have come as far as to breed discus in hard water, above 8.0 pH, they could breed them to withstand the conditions of the average, healthy aquarium environment, which is one with no Ammonia or its byproducts, suitable temperature, pH, oxygen levels, space, nutrition, and tank mates.
I am going to aim for 2 25% water changes weekly. Since I want my aquarium to echo a slow river, it will have mostly larger swords and few stem plants, with some floating frog bit, vallesneria, and tiger lotus. I expect these will not be heavy enough feeders to manage the entire bioload, but there will be a fluidized bed filter and a HOB sponger filter. I think the water changes will benefit the plants, also, by bringing in minerals that might be depleted from the water, rather quickly, when not dosing with fertilizers.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Sounds like an interesting plan, please keep us updated.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

TropTrea said:


> dwalstad from your comments I then assume that what your referring to is maintaining the proper balance between flora and fauna which will determine the need for water changes. This does not sound to me any different than any other fish tank. QUOTE]
> 
> I may have to back down on this; I'm not at all sure. I believe native Discus live in streams, so this might make them more finicky than lake fish where you have less water movement, less oxygenation, and a totally different bacterial microflora. Frankly, I had trouble trying to grow native fish like Shiners and Darters that come from fast-flowing streams, but had no problem with Blue-spotted Sunfish that came from a swamp and/or pond.
> 
> Also, many Discus breeders raise their fish _for generations_ in bare tanks under conditions where water is constantly changed. One master Hong Kong breeder changes 100% of the water daily. There would not be much selection for strains that would thrive in the planted home aquaria, where they would be exposed to completely different conditions.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

From the reference of an individual that used to go to the Amazon and catch them in the wild they are usually found in the calmer pools and streams connected to the Amazon river. While there may be a rapid current flowing through these ponds they are usually in the calmer water. He scolded me several times for having too much flow in my tanks for them. I was running a 500gph filter on a 75 gallon tank at the time. He suggested a 350 gph filter at the most.

As far as the hardiness I will say that the particular color strain has a big difference on how delicate they can be. Some strains are extremely inbreed and others are closer to the wild types. I had no problem breeding some of the the green strains as well as some of the poorer colored pigeon bloods. But I did bind some of the leopard strains almost impossible to breed, as well as get to there prime colors.


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## growingwonders (Feb 12, 2010)

It seems there are two types of people that are able to keep discus, long-term. There are the elitist, that tailor everything to growing the largest, healthiest, showiest, and most productive fish. Tank décor, plants, and other species are not part of their interest and the discus are an all consuming, religious experience. There is nothing wrong with that and I do believe, someone wanting the best discus will take that approach.
The other group are well informed hobbyist, that want to keep healthy fish and be adequately informed. They want healthy fish, that are attractive, compliment their plants and other fish, and fit their personal vision of what is attractive and entertaining. 
I am in the middle. I don't limit my interest to discus and I do think they can be kept, even bred in community tanks, with plants. I also know that the discus in these tanks typically max at around 8'', with bare bottomed, rigorous water changed discus, can reach 12'' or more. As long as the discus are healthy, I am not raising show winning fish. I want a compliment to my community aquarium. That said, I think each and every fish is deserving of having it nutritional, and environmental needs met. I won't be getting discus, if by the time I am ready for them, I can't keep my Ammonia at 0 and commit to a 50-60% weekly water change, because that is what they need to be healthy. I don't believe in just adequate care, I want optimum care, but I don't think that has to be bare bottomed, sterile tank keeping, for the average, but committed discus keeper.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Another option that is very popular is to grow out young discus in a bb tank then put them into thier planted set up. Imo that is the way to go. Best of both worlds. I think bb tanks look sterile.

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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I will say that my first attempts at breeding discus were as you said in the bare bottom tanks. I had basically 4 45 gallon tanks with a pair of discus in each. Filtration was a sponge filter in each tank and the tanks were automatically feed water through my 30 gallon per day RO system. Yes I used to occasional get spawns and usually was bale to save about 30 to 40 out of a spawn. But nothing like some of the commercial breeders. 

Years later I had a tank of mixed Discus and some cardinal tetras. I believe there were 8 Discus in that tank of mixed strains. One morning I was shocked as all the discus were hiding in a corner except one pair that was breeding. I was not able to save that span but after pulling out the other fish from that tank was able get about a dozen fry from them about 3 months later in the same tank. Yes this was a heavily planted tank, with CO2 that I kept the pH around 6.8 in. 

I will say that I have never seen 12" discus. The ones I breed were all around 5" to 6" and the largest ones I personalty saw were in the 8" range. 

It is my intention when I complete changing over my 120 gallon tank to planted tank to have a Discus population in it. The only problem right now I do not know a local importer and cannot get enough fish to import them myself on a regular bases.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

I have never seen anything over 9 even with pics online. Lots in the 7-8 range. There are people that litterly feed ever 30 minutes and do 2 75%+ water changes per day. My 240 with 9 adults at about 6" worked best with 80 gallon changes every other day. It was heavily planted. It was hard to keep the 2 pairs from spawning. Feed4x a day 2x pellets 2 x black worms. Never liked the beef heart, made a huge mess

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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Yes I agree with TAB on the feeding. While beef heart is supposed to be the fastest growth food according to some it is the messiest food. I think that the feeding of beef heart is what creates a need for more water changes. I used it only once and will probably never use it again. 

Fortunately when I had the Discus we had three wholesale fish importers in the area. When I dealt with them directly I was able to get live black worms, live brine shrimp and occasionally roe eggs. This is what I was primarily feeding and it gave me good growth without a mess. 

When I was raising and showing Betta's I was also feeding the black worms as well as brine shrimp. But will say that 100% water changes with RO water every other day did give me an edge on my show fish. At that point I was running over 100 gallons of RO water just for my Bettas a day. Yes I had well over 200 bowls of Bettas at one point.


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