# Weekly topic: Are Tonina tanks a nascent aquascaping style?



## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

I'm trying to get back on track with the weekly topics now. Sorry for the the recent slow down. 

*Some background:*

Some time in the 1990s, Rayon Vert, a Japanese company specializing in very rare fish, plants, and shrimp, imported the first Tonina sp into that country. From there, demand for these beautiful plants began to increase exponentially in the Far East. Some hobbyists began to devote their entire aquariums to these unusual aquatic plants --and not only Toninas, but also fine leaved Ludwigias, Eriocaulons, rare Bacopas, Polygonums, and Rotalas. These hobbyists are collectors, at least. But are they also creating a new aquascaping style in the process?

These aquariums, for the most part, have little in the way of hardscaping like Amano's --few rocks and little wood. Instead, the plants are carefully organized into groups. However, I can't really call them adaptations of the Dutch style since they are too open plus lack the rows of plants that lead the eye.

Here are some examples:














































*What plants are they using?:*

The most popular plants in Tonina aquariums include:

Ludwigia sp Pantanal









Rotala macrandra









Polygonum sp Sao Paulo









Proserpinaca palustris









Tonina sp Belem









Tonina fluviatilis









Eriocaulon setaceum









Rotala macrandra 'green'









*How to setup a Tonina tank:*

Toninas, since they grow in dense carpets in blackwater tributaries in the Amazon River of South America, require really soft, acidic water to look their best in aquariums. The substrate should be acidic, with a thin layer of peat at the bottom covered by a thick layer of Florabase (similar to ADA Aquasoil) or Eco-complete. The water should be reasonably soft. In my experience, water with KH 4 and GH 5 is adequate for growing these plants well. I'm currently growing the Tonina fluviatilis in tap water with KH 8, GH 12. I'll report back on if it does well or not. The key to growing Toninas and Eriocaulons well is intense, unobstructed light (3-4 wpg PC is a good amount to aim for) and CO2 injection.

To propagate these plants, simply cut off a sideshoot and replant in a well lit location --just like any other stem plant. However, in my experience, Eriocaulon setaceum does not like to be pruned too frequently.

If you are interested in learning more about Toninas (and know Chinese), I urge you to visit:
http://www.tonina-forest.net/

*Where can I find some of these plants?:*

Rotala macrandra and Proserpinaca palustris are reasonably common in the trade. Feel free to post a request on the trade/sell forum of this site. Another option is to order Rotala macrandra from the many online vendors who sell it --although be forewarned that it does not travel well.

Tonina sp, Tonina fluviatilis, Eriocaulon setaceum, Eriocaulon cinereum, Rotala macrandra 'green', and Polygonum sp can be obtained from any local fish store or online vendor who can import plants from Oriental Aquarium in Singapore. Talk to them or email them. They should be able to help you out. Also, many of these plants regularly appear on Aquabid.

*My questions to you:*

1) Is anyone here currently maintaining an aquarium devoted to these plants?

2) Are these aquariums part of an aquascaping style all their own, or are they simply collector's tanks? What are their design strengths and weaknesses?

3) Which is your favorite of the five aquariums selected? Why do you like it best? Critique it! 

Carlos


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

You're killing me Carlos! Beautiful plants!! 

I'd love to get my hands on some Ludwigia sp Pantanal and Tonina sp Belem!

Giancarlo Podio


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## cactusdoug (Feb 17, 2004)

*1) Is anyone here currently maintaining an aquarium devoted to these plants?*

Not me, but I'd love to.

*"Are these aquariums part of an aquascaping style all their own, or are they simply collector's tanks? What are their design strengths and weaknesses?*

I think they do have a style, not simply "Collectors Tanks"
"Collectors Tanks" tend to look like little farms.

To me they capture the spirit of the Asian Jungle.

The strengths to me are the placement of the swath of background plants enveloping the focal plants.

The weakness to me is the lack of hardscaping, I'd like to see more use of rock and gravel.

*3) Which is your favorite of the five aquariums selected? Why do you like it best? Critique it!*

I like the last tank, #5.
I love the balance of the plants, I absolutely love the focal plant in the front, very graceful and beautiful.

But again, I'd like to see some rocks and a maybe a clearing with some gravel and wood.

CD


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## Hanzo (Mar 9, 2004)

I love the first tank for some reason, don't even know why myself. It's a very clean and easy tank, and the red stand out so nicely. Also, the colors of the tank are so strong it just screaming how healty everything is. It look's great!

Since I live in norway, there's no chance of getting this anytime soon... But maybe I can I should try buying a good bunch from some of you guys soon an add some new species to the norwegian plant list


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## Pigheaddd (Feb 27, 2004)

1) Is anyone here currently maintaining an aquarium devoted to these plants? 

here. :lol: just started about a month, and more species to come. :twisted: tonina-forest.net is my guide and make some friends there, so no any problem at all now. :lol: 

2) Are these aquariums part of an aquascaping style all their own, or are they simply collector's tanks? What are their design strengths and weaknesses? 

i think its their own style. they normally do not use rock and driftwood in this aquascaping. only plants as Tonina sp. and Eriocaulon sp. are most popular plants now. actually, its not popular from now. its popular at least two years in some Asia countries. for me. its both collector and aquascaping tank. 

3) Which is your favorite of the five aquariums selected? Why do you like it best? Critique it! 

i like #5. its well balanced. i just like the way it is. 2nd one is #1. it simply looks pretty. =D> 


ps:i'm looking for all Eriocaulon sp. escecially Eriocaulon sp. from Australia. if you can get it and 100% sure thats what i want. please pm me. i'm working on possibility ship it directly from Japan now. hope everything is going well, and then i can have what i need soon. wish me luck! :wink: 

enjoy your Tonina tank,

Tim


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Carlos,

You mention Toninas being 'soft water' plants, would you put the pantanal in that same grouping? Having hard north fl well water, pretty much eliminates my ability to use Toninas, but I was wondering about the pantanals.


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

The fine leaved Ludwigias (Cuba, Pantanal) grow just fine in harder water. Neither are too difficult to grow with good light, CO2, etc.

Carlos


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Nice topic Carlos.

I guess i will throw in my two cents regarding your questions. No, None of thos eplants Although I too would love to get some of the L. pantanal or Tonina sp.

Your second question, "Are these aquariums part of an aquascaping style all their own, or are they simply collector's tanks? What are their design strengths and weaknesses?", is difficult for me to answer. I have not been in the trade long but aside from using new or rare plants I don't see anything "different" about these aquascapes. They are beautiful but I would not call them original, at least in the sense of crearting an aquascaping style. It is possible some of these people are collectors however, I also believe that many of these plants are much more avaliable to them than to someone like me. I also do not use collector as a negative term. I could not even special order one of those plants at any of my LFS. One day though MY store will though :wink: 

Third question, "Which is your favorite of the five aquariums selected? Why do you like it best? Critique it!"

Well, personally the 5th one down is my favorite. It seems very "jurassic" and prehistoric. I just think it is fun for starters but hten as I look more carefully and start to cretique it I find that it seems to be well designed too. The three Erio. sps. in the front make a nice, well balanced focal point and the overall effect of the colors and textures I find to be very pleasing. The only draw back I see to it is the lack of strong hardscape. I actually find the lack of hardscape in all but the 4th to be dissapointing. I would assume that tsunami would agree with me there :wink: This lack seems to make them all appear "uncomplete". 

I must say though that I think they are all beautiful aquariums and they certainly all have their strengths. I can crituque all I want but they are all much nicer than anything of mine, so I'll stop there

On a side note, I feel collectoritis coming on


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

Tonina isn't collector's disease. 

My 46 gallon, with 58 species in it, is collector's disease.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I would say that it is a sort of nascent aquascaping style. Most of the Tonina Tanks I've seen have been Chinese and they all look very much like Chinese Watercolor paintings I've seen. The fine leaf textures and droopy habit lend a soft, almost dreamy, feel to the aquascape which is prevalent in many Asian/Chinese water colors I've seen. Just like Amano tries to duplicate natural essences I think the Tonina Tank attempts to capture the essence of those water color paintings. 

My .02,
Phil


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

I really like the way the Focal point is much taller and kind of comes out of the tonina matt. I'm not sure if this is unique to tonina tanks but they seem to usually have this effect and most tanks i see dont have this type of effect. But the Rotala green tanks Amano has been making usually have the same effect. Also the colors are very rich in these tanks is that from the cameras they use?
BTW does anyone have a picture of a tank with a tonina in it that belongs to Amano? I've always wondered why he doesn't seem to make tanks with this plant in them.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 27, 2004)

ShaneSmith said:


> BTW does anyone have a picture of a tank with a tonina in it that belongs to Amano? I've always wondered why he doesn't seem to make tanks with this plant in them.


http://visual35.tripod.com/amano/amanobig_9.jpg

Back left side. You may have to cut & paste the URL into
your browser.


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

tsunami said:


> I'm currently growing the Tonina fluviatilis in tap water with KH 8, GH 12. I'll report back on if it does well or not.


Hi, maybe it's a bit late but I would be very interested in this report since I'm having troubles with Tonina sp. belem and I'd like to know if it's because of water hardness...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Mellonman said:


> Hi, maybe it's a bit late but I would be very interested in this report since I'm having troubles with Tonina sp. belem and I'd like to know if it's because of water hardness...


I don't know if this will help you but I grow Tonina sp Belem in kH 5, GH 9 with no trouble. The only time I have issues is if I let the plants get shaded,but they always bounce back and send out new growth onc ethey are allowed to get the full light.


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

Not at all with growing conditions, but wanted to say that my Lemon Tetras loved eating my Tonina Belem


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

My personal opinion is that tanks devoted to these are, as a whole, still very weak in terms of composition. I think I saw 1 tank of Amano's that used belem as a backdrop to a taiwan moss scape, but outside of that one (beautiful) tank, I have yet to see an example of a tank that really did great things with toninas, eriocaulons, or polygonums for that matter. These rare collector's plants still haven't proven their worth as aquascaping tools to me.

Then again, a year ago I thought the same about dow noi, and since I've seen a handful of tanks to use those plants as amazing midground/foreground, but only in very large hard to obtain numbers . . . 

I'm sure toninas will eventually find use in well developed aquascapes though, as people will always be trying.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I think they are best used as midground focal points/accents.


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## fishfry (Apr 15, 2004)

I have to disagree, I think a tank full of fluffy toninas and eriocaulons can be very beautiful and striking. If toninas are used as the primary plant it creates a dynamic tank because it is so easy to change the composition everytime you trim the plants. The balance of textures, colors and shapes is all very interesting. It is very different than a tank setup with wood and rocks that can retain the same look over a long period of time. I do agree it can sometimes be hard to incorporate toninas into aquascapes with the traditional bread and butter plants.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

To me, tanks like that just look like plant collections.

In contrast to a saltwater tank which shows people the beauty of the marine world they are not a part of, freshwater planted aquariums have their strength from the opposite. Amano's work, and the best work of other aquascapers IMO, have been designs that connect with a human understanding of nature, and that is why it touches the viewer deeply.

The human experience of nature is one of looking up at the mountains, down into valleys, being surrounded by forest, looking out over an endless plain, or stopping to look at something nature's left on the curb side. These types of feelings and experiences are in us deeply, and we understand and appreciate them. Freshwater planted aquascapes are able to recreate these types of themes, and these types of feelings, which is what makes humans connect with them deeply.

IMO those deeply ingrained feelings don't involve seeing a mound of weird-shaped fluffy crown things. Toninas and eriocaulons are just a bit unnatural-looking, a bit "over-the-top." Instead of connecting the viewer with his own feelings from his terrestrial existance, it drags him down into the water to be looking at something "from another world." Ie. this type of aquascape is more like the salt-water tanks in what it does.

That in itself is not bad. After all, there is also beauty different from that "deep connection" and there's art that's not landscape painting. IMO though, mounds of individually beautiful and bizarre looking plants is not enough to create an art. There needs to be something more than "shock value," in art.

As a side note, these types of plants, mostly because of their shape, don't work well with hardscape materials. Or at least, it's not easy to get them to work together.


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## lljdma06 (Sep 11, 2005)

I grow R. rotundifolia and macrandra in my 15g and I really like their place in my aquascape. They are very pretty plants and I enjoy them. 

I also prefer tank #5, but I really don't feel qualified to imput as to whether or not I feel Tonina tanks are a legitimate aquascaping style. They look pretty to me, and I always enjoy a good contrast, but like others have said, the layouts are not as creative as a typical "Nature" or "Dutch" layout. 

This is a very nice topic, however, and exposed me to a group of plants that I have not really paid much attention to, except for the specimens I grow. I seem to have, at least in IL, the ideal conditions to grow them. I will see if I can duplicate these conditions in Miami, FL, no simple task.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I'd have to say that the Polygonum was used nicely in this tank by Mike Senske:http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...n-top-stem-plant.html?highlight=mike+schooled


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I am curious, this conversation is from 2004, and Carlos states that L. cuba and pantanal grow just fine in hard water. I am wondering if he has changed his mind since then, 2 years later, or if anyone else thinks those are "easy" plants with hard water. Everything I have read lately says the opposite.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

You can grow them in harder water, but you must be _johnny on the spot_ with your C02, the general public does not know how to do this.

One must also know how to use C02, it is more than plugging C02 into a reactor while thinking you have good C02.. not 

Tonina tank's are the most beautiful tanks around, I have several kinds of planted tanks, I get the most complement's from the Tonina, but I do spend the most time with that tank.

Also Ethan/fishfry's post hit the nail on the head!


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

What do you mean by Johhny on the spot? Could you please explain more? What do you do differently with the C02 than normal? Do you keep a higher level?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Well, I do similar things:
> 
> I'm not so sure it's a style and I've kept mermaid weed, there's a damn good reason it's called a weed BTW, for nearly 9-10 years.
> 
> ...


Great pic Tom!! What camera are you using for that shot?

Thanks

jB


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Well what do you think Jonny on the spot means?


Well, I guess to me it would mean hitting your target range of C02, but that is why I asked the question. Can you be a little more specific Craig? What should I be doing specifically with my C02 to grow Tonina in hard water?


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Robert,
It simply mean's knowing how to use C02, light and when/when not to have surface agitation together.
Use a glass diffusor, anything else to date is 2nd rate. 
PVC Reactors are tricky and not as efficient etc.
and you do not have to have bubble's billowing all over the tank either.
How hard is your water? if it is to hard, you will need to lower the KH some.

Build a 10g tank for it if you have too, a little peat and Flourite will do, Florabase or Aquasoil is better.
It is easier to grow in low kh with an acidic sub, but not totally necessary, I grow the Tonina's is Flourite/sand, but it is harder to do.
Do not rely on a C02 chart by a reading from a test kit for an accurate C02 reading, use plant's, algae, fish or shrimp, harder to read at first, but once you get it, you got it.



Robert Hudson said:


> Well, I guess to me it would mean hitting your target range of C02, but that is why I asked the question. Can you be a little more specific Craig? What should I be doing specifically with my C02 to grow Tonina in hard water?


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## Bavarian3 (Oct 21, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Use a glass diffusor, anything else to date is 2nd rate.
> PVC Reactors are tricky and not as efficient etc.


Ya think so? Im trying to figure out how i should dissolve co2 into my tank. I built a pvc reactor and it had a leak, so i was set on redoing one, but a glass diffusor would be better..I had been under the impression that inline reactors were the way to go.
Id like to hear more opinions on this.

-Charles


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Yes I know so.
Contact Aquaticmagic, he can fix you up with Diffusor's, buy at least three!
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/26528-wts-coin-sized-diffuser.html

or his aquabid listing, he has all kind's, get the size right or slightly larger for you're tank.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/r...tion/auction.cgi?disp&viewseller&Aquaticmagic

He is good to deal with.
Tell him I sent ya


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Craig,

When you say more efficient...... How do you rate efficiency? By the dissolved CO2 in the tank.....(KH/PH chart), or by plant growth? 

The reason i ask is because I always thought reactors where more effecient in actual act of dissolving CO2 in the column with less injection(bubble count). This may not be your definition of efficiant, thus the question.

Thanks

jB


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Thanks Craig, that is interesting. So basically what you are saying is they will grow in hard water if you have an acidic substrate.

I asked this same question here a month ago when I was selling these plants if I needed an acidic substrate, and got the opposite response from several people who said the plants grow just fine in a normal substrate with soft water. I guess the common denominator is either the water or the substrate needs to be very acidic.



> Contact Aquaticmagic, he can fix you up with Diffusor's, buy at least three!
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sw...-diffuser.html


Or, instead of ordering them from Malaysia, you can order them from me! Right here in the USA! Why three? That does not sound very efficient!


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Jason,
I use the tank as a test kit, plant growth, algae growth, if any  fish and shrimp.
I do not use cheap test kit's and C02 chart's, using the light play's a vital roll, I keep all my light's to where they are adjustable, they do not sit directly on the tank, one needs control over his light just as much as all the other parameters.

Now with that said, I have built so many different reactor's it's not funny any more... 
Completely dissolving all the C02 into an PVC reactor is not necessarily the best thing to aim for, to get the plant health and growth I can achieve with a glass diffusor, I have to really push the envelope by using so many bps I can't count, by using a Glass Diffusor, the difference is night and day with very efficient bps.
If you don't have a glass diffusor I would recommend trying one, you are sure to like the result's, coupled with proper lighting technique's, surface movement, proper dosing.

Hope that help's answer you're question.



Jason Baliban said:


> Craig,
> 
> When you say more efficient...... How do you rate efficiency? By the dissolved CO2 in the tank.....(KH/PH chart), or by plant growth?
> 
> ...


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Robert,
The acidic sub does make it easier to do yes, that cannot be argued, but it is not an absolute necessity, and can/will be more complicated to do without it in harder water.
How hard is your water I ask again??

I do grow them in regular ol Flourite/Sand, plain tap with KH4 out of tap, but, they are simply not as healthy that way, they still look good, but not as good with an acid sub, I have been using Flora Base and it grow's plants very well, and those that say otherwise, well, thier test was flawed.. hehe

I recommend ordering at least three, for several reason's, 1)they are glass, breakage' 2) being inside the tank they do collect stuff, so every water change I have a clean one ready to go. etc.



Robert Hudson said:


> Thanks Craig, that is interesting. So basically what you are saying is they will grow in hard water if you have an acidic substrate.
> 
> I asked this same question here a month ago when I was selling these plants if I needed an acidic substrate, and got the opposite response from several people who said the plants grow just fine in a normal substrate with soft water. I guess the common denominator is either the water or the substrate needs to be very acidic.
> 
> Or, instead of ordering them from Malaysia, you can order them from me! Right here in the USA! Why three? That does not sound very efficient!


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well my water is actually pretty soft, KH is around 2, but I still ran peat in my filter and it really seemed to make a difference. For general knowledge, I was wondering what people with hard water are doing. Everyone on the Singapore forums insists that not only is the acidic substrate vital, but so is the hardness and pH. These are the people Carlos is reffering to in this article as starting the whole Tonina craze. Nobody there describes these plants as easy in hard water.

Jason,

You must have missed the big debate several months ago. Tom Barr came up with the idea that diffusors are better than reactors. It was hotly debated on both Planted Tank and here. The logic of Tom's arguement still seems like smoke to me, but I don't care. I use diffusors now for different reasons, not because they are supposedly better.



> I recommend ordering at least three, for several reason's, 1)they are glass, breakage' 2) being inside the tank they do collect stuff, so every water change I have a clean one ready to go. etc.


I was just funning you, but I like your logic on that one! I will have to start using that


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Craig,

Just to wrap up for myself and others reading this:

-You would say that you guage efficiancy on plant growth rather then the actually CO2 dissolved in the water.....Correct?

-You dont really think that Co2 concentrations are really as important as previously thought. It is known that a reactor will create higher concentration(ppm) of co2, but this is really not what is important because you are seeing better growth with a diffusor, even thought the concentration of co2(ppm) is lower with a diffusor.....correct?

-You are saying that bubble for bubble, a diffusor is more efficient with results (plant growth) rather then actual co2 concentration in the column(ppm).....correct?

Sorry to be so redundant, but i think this is great topic for lots of people out there. I want to make sure that your findings and statements are as clear as possilbe.

Thanks Craig!!

Robert,

Yeah i read that discussion:ranger: Hasnt amano used diffusors primarily since the beggining? .....I have _seen_ pictures of his tanks......

jB


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

-Plant growth and algae growth..Correct! if you are pumping C02 and getting good result's in plant growth, and are still getting algae, reduce the light intensity a bit.

-From my experience and all the test's I have done with reactor's, diffusor's, and wood stone's that is correct! I agree that a reactor will create higher concentration in the water than a glass diffusor will, but will still lower the pH and have good plant growth with less C02 usage.
I have just had better result's with the glass diffusor.

-Yes, Correct, most definitely.

-Redundancy can be a good thing.

Your welcome.



Jason Baliban said:


> Craig,
> 
> Just to wrap up for myself and others reading this:
> 
> ...


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## Bavarian3 (Oct 21, 2004)

Yeah, this thread has caused me to forget about making another DIY Co2 and im just going to get an ADA pollen or beetle diffusor. Way simpler having a diffusor than dealing with another piece on the filter output line. Doesnt look bad at all in the tank either, kinda neat actually.

Back on topic...I will be trying out some tonina belem in my new tank when its setup, I have hard water but i believe ill be able to grow it, plants can acclimate over time so ill see how that goes. Anyone with any experience on this? Wö£fëñxXx? 

regards
-Charles


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> -Plant growth and algae growth..Correct! if you are pumping C02 and getting good result's in plant growth, and are still getting algae, reduce the light intensity a bit.
> 
> -From my experience and all the test's I have done with reactor's, diffusor's, and wood stone's that is correct! I agree that a reactor will create higher concentration in the water than a glass diffusor will, but will still lower the pH and have good plant growth with less C02 usage.
> I have just had better result's with the glass diffusor.
> ...


Thanks Craig....this has been very helpful!!!

jB


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Bavarian3 said:


> Back on topic...I will be trying out some tonina belem in my new tank when its setup, I have hard water but i believe ill be able to grow it, plants can acclimate over time so ill see how that goes. Anyone with any experience on this? Wö£fëñxXx?
> 
> regards
> -Charles


Charles,
How hard is your water? there is a limit that the Tonina can tolerate, if it is to hard, you will have to lower the KH with RO, or you will not be able to grow it.
It is not an easy plant in harder water.


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