# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Something else to combat hair Algae



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

I found a Laguna Magnet that when piped in help combat hair algae. What do you think about using it in a 75 with BBA and hair type algae?


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

I found a Laguna Magnet that when piped in help combat hair algae. What do you think about using it in a 75 with BBA and hair type algae?


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Buy a trio of rosy barbs instead.

Bob

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

So you are saying that a magnet will get rid of algae?










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.

See my planted tank FAQ at http://members.dsl-only.net/~rex/


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

Yepp. They use them in ponds to do something to the Phosphate and mineral salts.

Whatever it does the tank has gotten really clear and hair algae has dropped off.


----------



## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Sounds like something in the same catagory as those copper bracelets some people wear to keep healthy.


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I think I can hear Rex stifling a laugh all the way from here









I don't know of any physical or chemical reality that would make that work. Let me think... Nope, not a thing.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

So Cichlidcat, have you personally used them or know someone personally who has used such magnets to rid algae from a pond. If so, please provide the specifics as to the before and after, etc.

Bob

xxxxxxxx [censored] barrier erected

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2

[This message was edited by BobAlston on Wed December 03 2003 at 09:22 AM.]


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

okay I will.

I have a 75 gal African tank that was getting over run with hair and fuzz algae. I currently have a Laguana pond water magent piped in with a 801.l I'll let you know.


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Roger,

You know me so well.







There is no scientific studies that show that magnets have ANY effect on water quality. While it's true that powerful magnetic fields can rupture cell walls we are talking about magnetic fields that require large amounts of power to generate. Powerful enough that if your car was parked 20 feet away before the power was applied it would not be 20 feet away when the power was turned on.

BobAlston,

Be careful when throwing around terms like "snake oil" see my FAQ for details.









American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.

See my planted tank FAQ at http://members.dsl-only.net/~rex/


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

Like I said I think it has more to do with the Phosphate and other materials in the Water. I have a customer than uses one of these on a 1400 gal pond and stated a big drop in hair type algae. I'm using it myself to see in my 75 gal. I have to say, the water is clearer but I'll wait on say if there is any big change in the hair algae. Also I have written Hagen to see if I can get some more info on what this magnet does.

[This message was edited by Cichlidcat on Tue December 02 2003 at 12:32 PM.]


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Cichlidcat,

Magnets have no significant effect on phosphates or any other dissolved material in the water. There are scientists and engineers all over the world who's job it is to test and treat water and waste water. If magnets did anything to dissolved constituents in water then they would be on it like hobos on a ham sandwich. They aren't.

If your customer's hair algae cleared up, or your water looks clearer, then it isn't because of any magnet.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

I didn't know a reputable company like Hagen made such a product. Here is an adv

http://www.petpacific.com.au/aquarium/Aq_laguna_magnetic%20clarifier.htm

Bob

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

Guys, I was in the Navy for 11 years and worked with Boilers, Evaporators and Waste Water treatment. Magnets are used to prevent scale and minerial build up in many fluid systems. See articles. Today, I write technical manuals for the Navy and military for many for these same systems, including water management systems.
Here are some articles I quickly pulled up
Acticle 1

Article 2

Article 3

When I saw this magnet for pond use I knew there would be some benifical effects in my tank as well. 
I posted this thread to see what you guys thought about the idea, and the effects it might have on hair algae. But more and more I get feeling like your are talking down to me or poking fun. Which is cool I can handle it.

Back to the water and my tank. The Magnet clarifer has done some good in my tank. Algae growth HAS slowed giving the plants a chance to get the upper hand. I guess I'll see what happens next.
I came here because most of you know more than I do when it comes to planted tanks, and maybe get some input on what to do and not do.


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

I think some of us are skeptical because there have been products in our hobby that seem to claim things not backed up by scientific studies. I also read, after your initial post, about one study showing reduced scale buildup with a magnet over a water line. OK. Let's assume I accept that as fact, because it seemed like a reasonable study. And now I have your input to confirm that. It seems a bit of a strrreeeetch to get from reduced scale in pipes to removing hair algae or other aquatic plant benefits.
I'm happy for you if it is helping your tank. I'd just like to see some studies showing the differences in two identical tanks. Also would be nice to read an explanation that can be subject to scruitiny as to WHY it works.

Bob

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Cichlidcat,

We need to distinguish between an article and an advertisement. What you linked to are advertisements. I love the one that claims to make water feel wetter









A very quick google search produced this article. It appears to be a fairly even-handed review of published research and advertising claims. Where the article does report an effect it appears to me that it could be attributed to something like a placebo effect in medical research. If a user is told that a device will produce a given effect then they may perceive that effect when they use the device even if the device has no physical effect at all. That however, is just my interpretation. The author doesn't make that statement.

Regarding the Hagen product... Hagen's reputation takes another hit. There have been others. One example is in Ivo Busko's article on lights. Notice Ivo's comments on the Hagen SunGlo lamp in the last paragraph.

I should point out that Hagen only claims that the magnet reduces limescale and enhances the effect of uv sterilizers/clarifiers. They couldn't even spell sterilizer right. They don't claim that it has an effect on phosphate. They don't claim it has an effect on hair algae. They don't (despite the name) claim it has a direct effect on water clarity. They say "Improve pond water quality" but I'm not sure that amounts to a claim of any kind. Personally, I didn't know that scaling was normally a problem in aquarium tubing.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

Agreed. 

I'll ask Hagen to send me some information on what exactlly this magnet is suppost to do. Meanwhile I keep an eye on my tank to see what is going on.
I did read that in combination with a UV sterilizer (spelling?) it would improve the UV ster. effectiveness.


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Here is a great link that shoots a bunch of holes in the magnetic treatment of water. Go to the bottom of the page to find out who wrote it. I would have to guess that he knows his stuff.

As it stands right now there are NO published scientific, double blind, peer reviewed studies that show that magnets do anything to water. Same goes for many other so called water conditioners that use junk science to support their claims.

In fact if you will go to my FAQ you will find how I take apart one companies claims for magnetic and other types of water treatment.










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.

See my planted tank FAQ at http://members.dsl-only.net/~rex/


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Here is the product and study I alluded to in my earlier post. I thought the study was reasonably well done, as far as I could tell, and definitely showed a lower scale buildup in the pipe.

http://puritec.com/residential/water/softeners/esf.htm

Bob

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Hey Rex - I took a look at your FAQ pages. I was surprised by your link to the Sharper Image (see below your page counter). They often have leading edge products such as the "Ionic Breeze by Sharper Image - Ionic Air Purifier" to which you link goes.

Bob

Later: Oops my fault - haden't read Rex' disclamer at the very bottom. Now I understand.
High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2

[This message was edited by BobAlston on Wed December 03 2003 at 05:21 PM.]


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Like I stated I'm not responsible for the link under the counter.










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.

See my planted tank FAQ at http://members.dsl-only.net/~rex/


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

I realized something, and correct me if I'm wrong. All these magnetic water gadgets soften the water (or supoost to) I read a one report that said closed loop systems would see the greatest benifits.

Anyway, would changing the water hardness kill off algae present in a pond or tank. This would account for my customer saying the hair algae died off and why I have seen a a reduction in some algae.

In the Navy we used double pass electo-magnetic coils prior to saltwater going into the evaperators. I know I saw the difference in scale depending on which ocean we where in. What a can a worms. GEEZZ.

There are tons of article/ads (thanks Roger) on both sides of the fence. I did notice that results seem to be inconsistant at best.

Oh well. I'll do a study of my own and let you guys know. Shoot I already have it plumped in so might as well.


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

I just read this article. Go about 1/2 way down.

study

Look for this quote;
The success of Magnetic Treatment Devices (MTD's) as a method of bacteriological, viral and algae control is well documented, with positive results reported using a MTD to control Legionnaires Disease Bacteria - Leglonella Pneumophila, as reported in "Maintenance Australia", 1990.


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure is a shame the author did not deem it appropriate to quote the sources alluded to which "well document" the effectiveness of magnets in treating algae.

Bob

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2


----------



## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

I found this article - posted by a company that sells magnets for water treatments - to be interesting. It discussed both sides of the issue and most interesting, it explained what the magnets are supposed to do to algae.

http://14ushop.com/magnets/a_polar_opposites.html

Bob

High Pressure CO2 sources, needle valves, information:
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Bob, their example from "Seaquarium in Miami" (is that a real place?) claims to have changed water from pea soup with a pH of 9 to clear water with a pH of 7.3. For brackish water or sea water a pH of 9 is probably a healthier outcome than a pH of 7.3.

The American Water Works Association is the major national organization of scientists and engineers responsible for designing and operating water treatment facilities. On their site I found this response to a question about magnetic treatment of water:

"There is almost no scientific evidence that these devices consistently work. Some scientific investigations have found some level of effectiveness in electromagnetic devices used to reduce the amount or tenacity of scale, but none are able to report the reason for the achieved effect. Attempts to reproduce successful results nearly always fail, probably because other, uncontrolled factors influence the results."

"Several studies show electromagnetic devices may have an effect on the type of scale and the attachment of that scale when applied to industrial boiler water, possibly from an interaction between silica and the calcium carbonate scale deposits. However, these studies seldom provide conclusive scientific evidence."

"Consumer Reports conducted a two-year, side-by-side study of water treated by one brand of domestic magnetic treatment device compared to untreated water and found no difference in scale formation in parallel domestic water heaters. I found no studies that show that electromagnetic devices are effective in domestic, first-use water applications."

The full text of the question and answer are at http://www.awwa.org/science/sun/qom/index.cfm?ArticleID=119

Some of this is the same material (word for word) that is in the article I linked earlier.

Of course, that just addresses their use for reducing boiler scale. I have no idea where the idea originated that magnets would have any effect on water clarity or algae growth. I've also heard no explanation for how they are supposed to work.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_

[This message was edited by Roger Miller on Wed December 03 2003 at 04:07 PM.]


----------



## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Bob, their example from "Seaquarium in Miami" (is that a real place?) claims to have changed water from pea soup with a pH of 9 to clear water with a pH of 7.3.


Yes, there is. It's actually pretty old. Remember the Flipper show? A lot of the
shots were taken around where this aquarium
stands. It's an awful place though and a tourist
trap. 32 dollars to get in? C'mon!

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

I think you hit on something Roger. In some cases the hardness of the water is changed. While in other cases other things where changed.

Some things I thought about last night.
1. Water and what it has in it is different from place to place. This would account for Magnetic devices to work here in Flordia and not say in New York
2. As soon as you start messing with PH and hardness effects or appearance algae or scale would change and probably return. Like alot of things in nature things return to the way they started. 
3. There is alot of reports from both sides of the fence with no definate(spelling) answear. And the arguement has been going on for 40 YEARS.

I'll continue using it to see what happens and post some picture if there is a big change. I would like to thank you for your input.


----------



## Cichlidcat (Sep 29, 2003)

I received a reply for Hagen when I asked about the Magnet

"Dear John, 
The Magnetic Water Clarifier is used to reduce the formation of mineral deposits and limescale. If this is what you are looking for, I see no reason why it could not be used on an aquarium. It only helps with algae problems when used in conjunction with the UV Sterilizer."


----------



## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

This is one of those threads with a lot of learning accomplished through controversy. Hagen's description somewhat describes what a Carbo Plus does to produce CO2. The CP is not effective in R/O water because the lack of calcium and magnesium needed to produce the electrolysis needed. 

I've used magnets to remove algae....Mag Floats worked pretty well.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


----------



## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

Water IS magnetic. It has a polar magnetic field caused by the spin-moments of its electrons, and at a level 1 million times lower, caused by the spin-monents of its protons. Nuclear magnetic resonance is well documented. However water is not ferromagnetic, and does not retain a permanent magnetic field when the magnet is removed. The spin alighnment decays in a few seconds and it is random again. There is no other detectable "memory".

I can imagine that scaling in a boiler could be affected by a magnetic field, that was applied to the whole boiler, or the whole pipe. I say imagine because I have no data to show that it does. I cannot imagine that there is any residual effect. At the magnetic field strength of a permanent magnet, there is no direct breakage of chemical bonds reported in any literature I am aware of. I have read many ads that make many fantastic claims, and many other ads that make very clever, but worthless claims, e.g. "it's not a water softener or filter, but a water conditioner", without defining the term.

Algae comes and goes in the typical aquarium. Frequently the aquarist has no clue why. If he adds a magnet just before a spontaneous clearup, he will report a false positive result for the magnet. This is called "superstitious behavior".


----------



## kzr750r1 (Jun 26, 2004)

I am glad to find this thread. Months ago I was investigating water softeners for the house. I found a company that claimed to soften water with a magnetic field. I didn't beleive this since otherwise everone would have been installing these units in homes all over the central valley. Our water is around 11gh when 80% of the tap water is supplied by the Sac. Delta. I'm afraid what it might be when they shut down the delta source in December every year for maintence. At that time they rely on 100% ground water. We will see what happens.

So this confirms that there are Waaaaaaay to many variables to justify trusting manufacturers claims.

Yet another reason to have informative discussions. Right?

BTW Cichlidcat, Are you still using the magnet? If so do you feel it's working?


----------



## mrmag (Jan 12, 2005)

Adding an 801 to pipe the water through the magnet may have had enough effect to show reduced algal growth.

Did you ever consider that increased circulation has had the effects?

Take the magnet out, leave the 801 & see what happens.


----------

