# [Wet Thumb Forum]-American aquascaping style?



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I was reading the APD archives for 1999, and was read the conversation Roger Miller and I had about aquascaping. It was this conversation that James Purchase jumped on to create the AGA contest.

It was kinda cool reading what I wrote back then... but re reading Rogers comments was interesting.

He said the following:



> quote:
> 
> We've long had "dutch-style" aquariums which seem to feature prominantly
> dense plantings teired very formally from low in front to high at the back
> ...


And later, as the idea of the AGA contest was being discussed,



> quote:
> 
> I want new Masters and I want to see a new and vibrant style. I want to
> see the art step to a new plane. That is what we can get from a
> ...


So my question is first to Roger, since you stated this in 1999, have you seen an american style come out of the AGA competition? Do you still want an American master?







And to anyone else, do you think there is an American Style of aquascaping?

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I was reading the APD archives for 1999, and was read the conversation Roger Miller and I had about aquascaping. It was this conversation that James Purchase jumped on to create the AGA contest.

It was kinda cool reading what I wrote back then... but re reading Rogers comments was interesting.

He said the following:



> quote:
> 
> We've long had "dutch-style" aquariums which seem to feature prominantly
> dense plantings teired very formally from low in front to high at the back
> ...


And later, as the idea of the AGA contest was being discussed,



> quote:
> 
> I want new Masters and I want to see a new and vibrant style. I want to
> see the art step to a new plane. That is what we can get from a
> ...


So my question is first to Roger, since you stated this in 1999, have you seen an american style come out of the AGA competition? Do you still want an American master?







And to anyone else, do you think there is an American Style of aquascaping?

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I don't think there is something that could be refered to as American style that is emerging from contests. Most contest winners have either Dutch influence, or Japanese influence with a twist here or there, or not.

I would like to think biotopes are a newer, more natural form of Aquascaping, perhaps one of the hardest, but that has not even emerged from US contests.

IMHO, Right now the plant hobby is just passing it's infancy here in North America. There are many wise and experianced plant keepers here, but not nearly the numbers compared to how many people are just figuring out how to grow plants. 

Once the majority of people figure out how to grow everything, focus will shift towards what to do with all these new healthy growing plants. North American Aquascaping will reach a new level as new people add new ideas and talent to the pool. Atleast I think it will.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Robert,

I don't don't think that an American style has emerged. Not yet, anyway. I do think there is a third style but it isn't uniquely American. We now have the Dutch style and the original Nature Aquarium style as extremes. Most aquarists -- American and otherwise -- are in between. I think of it as a "common" style. It tends to employ elements that are used in both Dutch style and Japanese style tanks. It's an amalgam from which new concepts will grow.

I think our friends in Taiwan and Singapore may well develop independent styles before a new style comes out of America. They are certainly on their way.

I think that if there is an American master who has emerged through the competition then it must be Jeff Senske. No one else has his record of consistent success. Certainly his work is worth emulating. There are other prominent American aquascapers -- Erik Leung comes to mind -- who should be recognized and who's work should serve as an inspiration for the rest of us.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## sjogren1 (Feb 23, 2004)

The debate rages on. IMHO, if there were an "American Style", it would be like America itself - a blending and melding of peoples, cultures and ideas. As a nation, the USA has no single cultural history to draw upon, for aquascaping or much else. Also, do we need another "style"?
What would a Native American Style look like? Maybe emulating aspects of North American wild forests, deserts, marshlands or plains?

** Roger S. **

[This message was edited by sjogren1 on Fri November 14 2003 at 07:12 AM.]


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I was wondering if someone would bring up Jeff Senske. I think his name comes to mind because he and his brother are the only people we know of who are actually earning a living doing it: the only public art gallery of planted aquariums. But he has told me himself he does not consider himself much of a master, and doesn't really have the grasp of advanced aquascaping techniques. Their business is creating aquariums for corporate customers, not nessasarily creating works of art. He has probably done more volume in work than anyone else we know, but I do not think any one of them individually stand apart as being unique.
Erik has done some nice work, as have many, many other people, including our own board members. I think you are right, there hasn't been any new masters or anyone doing anything radically different. No new Amanos. Perhaps thats the way it should be! Now what if someone could think of a way to incorporate abstract art into aquascaping! That would be a hoot!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## ScottH. (May 13, 2004)

I would have to agree with sjogren1. I believe that if there is a new american style that has emerged than it would be a mix of the dutch, japanese, and other styles found in the world. Just like in real life. We take ideas and incorporate them with other ideas to eventually improve on them. 

But, if we emulated aspects of North America with the wild forest, deserts, ect. than would that not be just about the same thing as the japanese style.

Maybe us here should come up with a new style or at least try.

My goal is a sea of green.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> But, if we emulated aspects of North America with the wild forest, deserts, ect. than would that not be just about the same thing as the japanese style.


Thats an interesting idea. Much of Amano's work is his own interpretation of Japanese society, values...that whole Zen thing. If North Americans were to somehow emulate their own interpretation of american landscape and ideals, then that would be a first! It would be more of a personal approach in designing the aquascape for the American, not nessasarily so obvious that anyone would automaticaly recognize it.

For example, I might try and do something that would represent Strength and Boldness, and yet at the same time fraility. That would be my sense of America. Something like a Mt Rushmore surrounded by very fragile, delicate plants. Hmmmm....

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

I don't think you will see any other style of aquascaping until people who judge aquascaping look for some thing different in them. It seems to me that everyone is trying to follow the rules. (Aquascaping principles) tanks are judge on how smooth the flow is from left to right or front to back. They all have short plants in front, tall plants in back. For me I ask why? What if you wanted an effect of looking through thick woods to and open meadow. Wouldn't you then have tall narrow plants in front. If I did this and entered it in a contest, the style would be criticized for not following the rules. 

Here is an example of what I am saying. Take the first photo in Rogers post "Rocks Under Water"
I know this is just part of a bigger tank but I am talking about just this photo. The rocks are in the center of the photo. That would be a no no. The spike plants behind the sharp rock is a no no. The open foreground in front of the rock is a no no. I like this, it brings your eye straight to the rock. The open space just off to the right would be wrong too. But I find all these things are what brings aggressive character to this photo. Its the part that keeps it from being like all the rest, smooth flowing. It defiantly has sharp starts and stops and starts again. Robert talked about abstract art into aquascaping. Look at this photo, imagine it was blurred heavy brush stokes. On the far left the strokes would be small round strokes that lead into sharp vertical stokes that end in openness just to start up again as a calmer round strokes with small horizontal lines. Add some color and I think you have abstract art. 

My point is that as long as aquascapes are judged by the tank others have created before them, there will not be any new styles of aquascaping art. As far as an American style, I would say it would be an aggressive style. An in your face, braking the rules style. The reason I say this is the life style here in America. Its a fast, do your own thing life style. Most of the aquascaping I see is clam laid back styles. I don't see the individuality that would have to be in an American style of aquascaping yet.

Hawk

Trust But Verify «*»®


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## sjogren1 (Feb 23, 2004)

Why not then have an American Aquascaping contest in an attempt to begin the recognition process? Robert?

** Roger S. **


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by sjogren1:
> Why not then have an American Aquascaping contest in an attempt to begin the recognition process?


Personally I think that's going about it all wrong. Contests should be competitions of execution, not of _style_--and certainly not of _defining_ a style that hasn't yet even been firmly established. If there _is_ such a thing as an American style of aquascaping, then I would agree with Hawk that it definitely isn't one for the subtle-minded. Karen Randall also remarked on her impressions of aquascaping in America and noted that it seems to emphasize robust, healthy plants arranged in bold groupings, with one or two that serve as strong, almost distracting, focal points.

_____


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

I agree with what Robert said about placing emphasis on our culture and society in America, as Amano has done to incorporate his Japanese society into his tanks. If that is what 'style' is all about. Other than that, the term 'style' really is such an ambiguous term, particularly since people nowadays are getting influenced by all sorts of things they come in contact with. Otherwise, should and would we see in the future Taiwanese styles? Thai styles? Polish styles? Middle East styles? No, I think that idea is wrong. It should be more about personal feelings and interpretations on things in life; anything, for that matter. Then, the rest of the world can see and make up their own judgements. But trying to really define and term something is simply too difficult at this day and age.



Paul


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

[As far as an American style, I would say it would be an aggressive style. An in your face, braking the rules style. The reason I say this is the life style here in America. Its a fast, do your own thing life style. Most of the aquascaping I see is clam laid back styles. I don't see the individuality that would have to be in an American style of aquascaping yet.]

Well, but if you want to put it this way then there simply will NOT be just ONE American style because each state is like a different country. Some are fast paced, like NY and LA, while others are more laid back as in the south and midwest. Come on, my friend. I mean, assuming you are really right about this as being the American sense of style, then it should be style with an 's', haha! All in all, since we are more like a salad bowl(multi-ethnic)and melting pot(European descent), why not just get a really gigantic tank and have all these different themes in it? One section would be the so called 'aggressive and fast paced' as you have said, while another section of the same tank would have the calm and relaxed elements. Then maybe, size is THE one thing that could really determine what an American style is; it should be at least 100 gallons with multiple themes in it! That would make more sense to me, using your analogy.

Paul


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

While sitting in the airport waiting for my flight out of Dallas it suddenly hit me that everything I had been doing in the hobby for the last 3 months was suddenly done. My talk was finished, the auction was over, the contest was done. I didn't know what I was going to do next.

My mind drifted to new aquascapes, and Robert's earlier mention of abstract art falls into my thinking. Two things came to mind.

The first was to design aquascapes that were inspired by humans or animals in motion. Specifically, I was thinking of the graceful forms of dancers and incorporating their fluid lines into an aquascape. These would be abstractions, not reproductions.

Second, I thought of designing aquascapes that were inspired by the personalities of my children. Tessa would be the sunlit rock. Gwen would be dark and mystical. Nicole would be flowing and willowy.

I think we have places to go with aquascaping. The existing "styles" are merely starting points.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Gotta get in on this one--

Right now in the world, being original is out of style. Music, pop/classical "high" art, and poetry are all stagnant and relying on on covers and imitation. This world is WAITING for a new art movement.

That said, aquascaping is also a shade stagnant, but since it is a relatively BRAND new art form, we are still able to mold existisng "stlyes" or "schools" into hybrids or new shapes as Roger has pointed out.

There won't be an "American" style. We don't have ANY original art forms. (Anyone who brings up jazz is in for a terrible tongue lashing, so choose your words carefully).... The Europeans have done it all in some form or another. 

American art is doomed to be a melting pot. That's OK, though...Eventually we do everything better anyway, (with few exceptions) but aquascaping might be one of those things we don't. We just don't have the Centuries of existing art to depend on. 

Amano hasn't done anything new in the macro sense. he just applied it to the aquarium. The Germans/Dutch are in the same boat. 

Just find good materials and arrange them into pleasing arrangements. Different combinations of hard decor and plants will produce new refreshing 'scapes. Only when a single, prolific, skilled individual emerges will a new aquascaping school have an opportunity to surface....

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## tony (Sep 24, 2005)

I think it will be extremely difficult to associate an aqua-style to a specific region of the globe again. This is due to the internet and the true globalisation of aquatics. 

The Dutch and Japanese styles were born before the internet. So what was the difference? Both countries had different ideas on how best to grow aquatic plants, different theories, equipment, they were pioneering the art of aquascaping with the tools they had immediately available to them. Even the difference in resources i.e. the aquatic plants and rocks they could use etc culmanated in differing aquascaping styles. 

Now, especially thanks to the internet, people all over the globe know the theories on growing aquatic plants, aquascaping concepts, the best equipment. Also new aquatic plants are spread around the globe a lot quicker thus preventing aquastyles developing from one specific geographical place. Surely it is hard to a establish an aquascaping style with vast amounts of people all around the globe using the same resources, information, theories and equipment. 

Just some rambled thoughts
Cheers Tony


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I know! I know! Call on me!

American aquascaping is an arrangement with red plants, white gravel and blue fish.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## sjogren1 (Feb 23, 2004)

Laugh not. At least not so fast. My 8 year old son suggested a red, white and blue themed tanked for his room when our new house is complete.

** Roger S. **


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Robert,
(I may have been daydreaming but ....))
You'll be happy to know that in her opening remarks, Karen Randall referred to three styles of aquascaping; Dutch, Natural and American

I've tried to evolve an idea of what an American style might be. We had lots of discussions on just this subject last year as I was beginning my tank.

Personally I did not want to do a dutch tank and I did not want to do a natural tank. I used elements common to these styles, but not necesarily borrowed from these styles.

For example I plant in larger groups. Is this just a common artistic method or does it automatically equal Dutch? I use three dimensions for the best visual impact, but does this mean its natural?

I wanted to break my tank from the molds. I did this without adhering to either style, but while obeying standard artistic principles. I gave my design a title and a theme then tried to convey its meaning. I used color charts to determine compatible colors and determine their progression. I placed focal points at the optical centers and ensured flow to and from those points.

While all of this is a work in progress I have received some appreciation and recognition for it. I welcome all comments and thoughts. If I may use my tank as an example, I'd like to share some of them now as it may give some insight to the discussion;

_My tank winning Best of Show was a joke -_ 
While not encouraging, is there something to this comment? Did I really try something new, some new techniques, some new elements? or did I just ignore the rules and luck out?

_we tend to forget about aquascaping principles and make it an afterthought... No clear grasp of what an aquascape is clearly about -_
It was my intention, and I think all of my early sketches show, to obey as many principles as possible from day one. I ordered a custom tank and arrange the wood according to principles, but did I miss the mark entirely? Did I ignore artisitic principles or did not adhere to an established style.

_Too many reds -_
I can see this comment very easily, but can it be a valid statement. Other entries could be seen as too many greens, yet in a Natural aquarium the statement would never be made. Many do not have a shred of alternative colors.

The list goes on, but I mean just to present examples.

The reasons I bring up these examples is to demonstrate what an uphill battle an American style will face. The two main styles are very well entrenched. They are defined with their own conventions which by inference are applied to all aquascapes.

If any American style does evolve I hope that it is based on artistic expression and artistic principles. After all, most art galleries feature many colors other than green.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

James, your use of color was extraordinary. 

Most aquascapes rely on color contrast, but you played on color progression -- much more difficult to predict as water and light parameters have variable effects! 

I suspect that bold use of color will be a defining trait in American style.


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## marLe (Aug 23, 2003)

red blue white?

easy la

concentrate on REd plants
blue paper background
white substrate(sand)

lol


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Karen does believe there is an American aquascaping style. I can't remember all the features she mentioned. One that stood out to me is "bright colors." Karen has probably seen more individuals tanks in person than any of us, so I lean toward believing her.

As an aside, the features that seem to make successful tanks in the AGA contest include

bright colors -- something eye-catching and appealing
good layout -- standard principles work
a creative stroke -- anything that makes it stand apart.



> quote:
> 
> _My tank winning Best of Show was a joke -_
> While not encouraging, is there something to this comment? Did I really try something new, some new techniques, some new elements? or did I just ignore the rules and luck out?


No joke, James. I think you won *because* you tried something new and it worked. Your tank has the features that I think are required to be successful in the AGA contest.

I've noticed in the past that the ADA contest winners seem to feature some innovative step. It's the innovation that sets them apart. Another of Karen's comments in her talk on Friday stressed the importance of creativity; I hope and believe that the AGA contest judges share the same value in creativity.



> quote:
> 
> _we tend to forget about aquascaping principles and make it an afterthought... No clear grasp of what an aquascape is clearly about -_
> It was my intention, and I think all of my early sketches show, to obey as many principles as possible from day one.


You are absolutely right. The most common failing in aquascapes is an absence of purpose. Aquascapes need to be designed and built for a reason and that reason needs to carry through the tank maintenance. Retrofitting a tank with an aquascape rarely works. You see the results in the judge's comments; "lacks focus", "pretty tank, healthy plants" but low score; "The tank just needs a little...". To build a successfull aquascape the aquascaper needs to start with a clean canvas and carry their idea to completion.



> quote:
> 
> _Too many reds -_
> I can see this comment very easily, but can it be a valid statement.


"A lot of reds" would be a valid statement. "Too many" is pretty subjective. Your tank has a lot of red, but it also has enough bright green to compliment the red. Your color selection leans heavily to the red, so the highlights in the tank are actually the greens. It's like a negative image of the normal color selection. Your use of reds is good and it made your tank stand out.



> quote:
> 
> The reasons I bring up these examples is to demonstrate what an uphill battle an American style will face.


That battle may be underway. Historically there have been large differences in opinion among the judges of the AGA contest. At least part of that difference is a preference in style. I don't know that the outcome of those arguements will be an established American style. Rather it may just be a broadening of styles commonly used elsewhere.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Just an aside ... I love reading Ann's, Roger's and many other's comments and being able to put a face, personality and voice to the name. I am so glad I went to the conference.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
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## kherman (Apr 7, 2003)

Well, I was going to joke that our style will eventualy emerge when plastic plants are mixed in with normal plants.

I hope something emerges eventually. I look at my tank all the time thinking about that. What could I do that is totally unique?

The one thing I want to try out is mixing substrate and plants in a unique way. A tank that has large rolling hills with 30 degree inclines. Nice and "wavy". Do this using something like 100% glosso with "focus plants" along the top of each hill. Maybe nana on the top of one hill, twisted vails along another hill's top ridge. Long tanks would of course have be utilized.

Unfortunately, this dream is years away, unless I do a total redo of my current tank (not going to happen). My plan now is to get a 180+ in several years and trying this idea out on my current 125. If anyone has a long tank laying around, it would be nice to see this attempted. Fake tiers would have to be made to lift the substrate as I doubt anyone is going to pay for that much substrate. A filler could be used I suppose.

Anyone seen this attempted? I will try it one day, I promise.

------------------------------
Karl's Parts And Construction Journal


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## kherman (Apr 7, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> _My tank winning Best of Show was a joke -_
> While not encouraging, is there something to this comment? Did I really try something new, some new techniques, some new elements? or did I just ignore the rules and luck out?


James, when people wanted to know why I was getting a 125, I simply showed them pics of your tanks. 'enough said









Trust me (and us) James. Your tank is simply incredible.

------------------------------
Karl's Parts And Construction Journal


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> No joke, James. I think you won *because* you tried something new and it worked.


I agree very unique. Are there any American styles in landscaping? I get books on landscaping because a lot of the ideas apply to aquascaping. But I don't know enough about it to know if there is an American style. I like Singapore style because its like bonsai aquascaping. They make tanks look like small landscapes.

*Journal Database*


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Kherman,
I thought I was years away also
















One thing that is important to me is that artistic elements are the basis of any style. I can take a lot of criticism for doing something different as long as I know that it has a sound basis. Even if others may not recognize it or appreciate it, a solid foundation gives American designs a quality of their own.

Where I think American aquascaping has a great amount of potential is the idea that people are starting aquariums with aquascaping as the intent. Until recently most aquascapers were fish keepers or botanists growing plants who transitioned into the design element.

Our suppliers, vendors and manufacturers are catching up with the idea that Americans are interested in the art of aquascaping.

The plastic plant was an American invention(I can't prove it







but its easy to assume) and it is an image that will be hard to break.

Traditionally Americans are known for growing plants(i.e. - the Jungle) and technical advances(i.e. - high tech tanks). I am seeing more people getting custom tanks for aquascaping and including the hardware to support the plants.

The quality of the tanks going into AGA are getting better and better every year. I think that is because of a change in mind set. The aquariums are being designed from the beginning to be planted and the difference in the qualiity shows in the results.

Imagination and innovation will become the hallmarks of American aquascaping, but to be respected it must be built on a solid foundation of visual arts and existing techiques.

I think the worst thing the AGA did was include an artificial plant category in the contest and the best thing they ever did was remove it. I think this year's contest sets the stage for American aquscapers going into the ADA next year. I think everyone of us needs to plan and craft entries that will represent American aquascaping.

With credible entries that show the innovation and imagination Americans are known for, the definition of an American style will not be far away.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Hey gang,

James Hoftiezer writes:
>>One thing that is important to me is that artistic elements are the basis of any style. I can take a lot of criticism for doing something different as long as I know that it has a sound basis. Even if others may not recognize it or appreciate it, a solid foundation gives American designs a quality of their own.<<

So what does that mean? The term "artistic elements" is slightly off-putting in its vagueness. Please elaborate.

You haven't really taken any criticism as far as I can tell. The folks from this list seem to love your work, while others seem to think it trite and can't vocalize why except to say things like "too many reds", or "collectors tank". Further, any criticisms have prompted you to plead for justification, so your obviously very sensitive. What "artistic" elements did you incorporate into your tank?

What is your artistic background?

>>Where I think American aquascaping has a great amount of potential is the idea that people are starting aquariums with aquascaping as the intent. Until recently most aquascapers were fish keepers or botanists growing plants who transitioned into the design element.<<

But, we're decades behind. We certainly have potential because we're beginning care. However, as artists, Americans traditionally have been copiers and hybridizers, not inovators. Without being abstract or theoretical there is very little left for us to come up with. In all fairness, though, all art was once abstract or theoretical at some point. Hundreds or sometimes thousands of years go by before it becomes mainstream or "pop" as it were. With modern communication (the internet) the curve should relax alot, but we don't have the art as culture to base an 'scaping style on.

>>Our suppliers, vendors and manufacturers are catching up with the idea that Americans are interested in the art of aquascaping.<<

So? They're not artists. The folks who make the paint don't know squat about painting.

>>The plastic plant was an American invention(I can't prove it but its easy to assume) and it is an image that will be hard to break.<<

Agreed!

>>Traditionally Americans are known for growing plants(i.e. - the Jungle) and technical advances(i.e. - high tech tanks). I am seeing more people getting custom tanks for aquascaping and including the hardware to support the plants. <<

Traditionally, American are known for killing plants. Us being able to grow plants for real is *very* new. We cheapskate Americans, as a rule, weren't willing to spend the money necessary to properly grow plants. Just check out some of the old APD arhives and the OLD .usenet archives on the Krib. It's been maybe since the early '90's that we've begun to be competent in this arena, and maybe since the 96-97 area when 'scaping was even mentioned....

We're so far behind.... Custom tanks are nice, though and a good thing for us to catch onto. High tech tanks are not not our device by any stretch. Dupla is largely responsible for getting this off the ground, and the Dutch/Germans were using their stuff for years before us.

>>The quality of the tanks going into AGA are getting better and better every year. I think that is because of a change in mind set. The aquariums are being designed from the beginning to be planted and the difference in the qualiity shows in the results.<<

It's true. BUT, the vast majority of *really* nice aquascapes are coming from a dear few hobbyists (and professionals). The main improvement that we're seeing is improved photography thanks to better and cheaper digital cameras. The health of plants is also greatly improving thanks to the internet and all its "experts", and the combination makes tanks look better. For the most part, the aquascaping is improving slowly, but surely....

>>Imagination and innovation will become the hallmarks of American aquascaping, but to be respected it must be built on a solid foundation of visual arts and existing techiques.<<

Wrong. We'll eventually figure out how to reliably grow plants cheaper-- that's for sure. As far as the "art" goes, we'll continue to copy and hybridize until we get bored, and then we'll have a "purity" movement. This cycle of art has happened throughout history. Eventually we'll get back to Amano, and the Dutch. Sorry to sound so bleak. Just wait and see....

What foundation of visual arts?! I'm trying not to call you out, James, but this post is starting to sound like a pep talk, or a state of the union address









>>snip...<<

>>With credible entries that show the innovation and imagination Americans are known for, the definition of an American style will not be far away.<<

You're just not making any sense, James. What is it that will define the "American" aquscaping style in your opinion? "Artistic elements" and "innovation" are great, but what does it all mean? In other words-- which elements and innovations will be key? On what basis do you state that this thing will EVER come to fruition?

IMVHO, we're barking up the wrong tree. VERY few of us (including me) are equipped to even dabble into the life of an artist trying to revolutionize an art form. Amano has created hundreds or maybe *thousands* of layouts. The majority of us Americans who care about 'scaping have done somewhere between 50 and 100...

You've done 5 or 6 tops.

James, your tank is VERY nice, no doubt about it. You've done amazing things in such a short period, it's almost unbelievable. I don't believe you thought this last post through all the way, though. Look at art in America. Except for the movie (before the '80's), we've been largely imitators and hybridizers.

I've said before and I'll say it now. It's gonna take one hobbyist or an elite group to come up with something NEW and stick with it, be very prolific, photograph extensively, publish, and gain the support of the aquarist AND artistic community at large before an American style can really emerge.

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

>>Now, that I re-read it, you're right it sounds like a filibuster. I'm stuck at work watching a database restore and am WAY too bored.

>>I am super-sensative because I have a lot invested in my tank. Not $$$, but its a really important form of expression/outlet for me. 
I am (as a database administrator) a very anal-retentive person who ends up defending my actions even when successful... its the job







. Its kind of an anti-rant.

>>When I talk about artistic elements, I'm referring to basic visual arts. Birgit mentions many of them in her principles of aquascaping. Placement (balance, optical center, golden ratio), composition(textures, space) and use of colors(balance, progressions).
Most of my art training comes from my mother who was a dutch style oil painter and taught at the local schools, but I did not take but a few formal classes. I went to engineering school instead of art school.

>>I don't think we're decades behind. I think an aquascaper walking into today's environment can catch onto the basic science fairly easily and concentrate on the design. In the area of design the information flood out there allows for a short learning curve of the technical aspect. After the technical comes the artistic.

>>Vendors make the technical aspect easier. The suppliers of hardware and plants do not contribute to the artistic side but they support the technical side allowing more time for the artistic. i.e - once painters no longer had to mix their own paint, then concentrated more on the painting.

>>I'll defer to you on the history. You obviously have gone more into it than myself.

.... database is done. time to go home. I'll try to catch up on the rest there.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Preach on Brother Wheeler.

I have largely stayed out of the recent aquascape topics, as I seem to have a different opinion from most, and this seems to be a very sensitive topic, so I don't want to step on toes, upset anyone, be critical of someones hard work... but I almost wholey agree with Wheeler.

No offence to anyone, but I have never seen an aquascape from an american that, to ME, and I repeat >>ME<< that didn't look like a mix of an Amano and a Dutch tank. Some even looked like badly composed Dutch tanks. Something like a beginning Dutch 'scapers attempts, or errors.

I agree with James that one can learn quickly from other people's previous aquascapes, and study those aquascapes and progress quickly into things. He did it afterall.

I am by no means a pro aquascaper, I disagree with the attractivness of most of the aquascape techniques out there, they don't appeal to me. 

I have all the Amano books, but not for the aquascapes, but the health of the plants. That is more important to me. That I can truly appreciate. And he usually makes the aquascapes look half decent. Some of them I find totally ugly. 

This is the nature of all art forms. They are very subjective. I can even appreciate some graffiti, though others hate it. I like the way some of the tanks look, hate the others.

Not to put James on the spot, but this is a prime example. James's tank looks very nicely composed. He put a lot of planning and effort into it, and one can defanately appreciate the blood sweat and tears that went into it. He did rightfully win the AGA, it's a composition and execution competition. No one mixed as many plants as he did with such a look of wholeness. The colors blended into each other well, but still had enough contrast to appeal to me. And the judges there as well were very open to his work. But in that one pic of I believe the left side, you can see the bare stem of what I think is Alternanthera go all the way up about 20 inches to the 3 of 4 nodes with leaves. To me this just ruins the picture.

I guess this is a good time to say it, a number of people asked me why I don't have pics up. I aquascaped ny tank heavily, mostly with advice from James, and a small group of select others. From an aquscaping perspective I am sure many would have liked it. However the plants that were in the tank were there to look good beside eachother, not because I liked the plants. Obivously the novelty wore off quickly. 

I wanted to do an aquascape with Bacopa spread thinly across the front of the tank, like small trees on the edge of the forest. Not blocking the view, but giving the impression of young, small trees on the edge of a forest. I wanted to have the middle featuring thick shorter plants, and a couple peices of wood that would represent old, large fallen trees. Something low. Then I wanted the back of the tank planted with something fine to represent meadow grass. This feel would be one like comming from the denseness of the old growth, to edge of the forest, into the sunlight filled meadow. The problem is this goes against what everyone consideres proper technique. Then it occured to me that obivously I should switch the order, having it more traditionally planted, having the background in the back of the tank and the foreground in the front. But then it would not have the same feel. Not the expression I wanted, so I didn't bother. Perhaps I should have.

I decided to work with the plants I have not worked with much, so work with, right now, Swords, lillies, ect. They don't fit well into aquascapes in the variety and quantity I want. My entire tank is starting to fill with them, and of course they don't compose an attractive aquascape, so I am not one to critize anyone's work, just wanted to put my $.02 in. 

I know Americans are generally a proud and patriotic bunch. This is something to be proud of. However I think some of this is rubbing off into this conversation. 

Despite this entire thred and what Karen Randall said, I still disagree with most people. IMO, there is no American aquascaping style.


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

I don't think there is an American aquascaping yet. 
If pressed I can toss up some ideas but I can't define it. I'm no master. Heck I'm still a newbie in many ways.

I would like for there to be something other than Dutch and Natural. I'm still playing around with ideas on what it could be. That's why I make broad 'suggestions' about a direction it could go.

Wheeler suggested I've done 5-6 aquascapes ..... I'm on my second. I don't claim to have the experience to change the world, nor do I want to. I would, however, like to be able to contribute in my own way.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))
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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I have a hard time relating to what John is saying, and I really do not know what point Justin is trying to make. You seem to be contradicting yourself! Basicaly what you seem to be saying more than anything else is people are taking them selves too seriously, and art takes itself too seriously.

It is not hybridizing, copying, or ripping off another style, its called influence, evolution. Its a very natural process that takes place in every form of expression: language, art, music, literature, politics, you name it. We learn from example and from our enviorment. We progress as a society from our past experience. Our very being is dependent on it. Without eveolution, we would still be living in caves.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Slappy (Mar 2, 2003)

What is the American style of aquascaping? 
Well first you need to break it down into groups..and since this is a planted tank forum, we'll go with the planted tank aquascaping style.(of course)
Then you have to define "American"..that is the tricky part, as that really limits the variables involved in being an American. The stew of the world, so to speak. I think American style(s) would be more accurate. You can further break this down into more groups. But since this is a serious planted tank forum, we'll go with the "serious, American, planted tank aquascaper style". American aquascapers whom use plastic plants are not included within this elite group of serious artists.
Now that we've broken it down to where it needs to be, we can pick this bone clean. From a pure artistic viewpoint, I'm now imaging what exactly constitutes this "American" style. Hmmm..

...there isn't one. That's right...not "one." There are many and they reflect the imaginations of the respective artists.

...we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

----------------------------
Fish Slapping Extraordinaire

[This message was edited by Slappy on Tue November 25 2003 at 02:18 AM.]


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

That's NOT what I'm saying at all. 

What I am saying is that American's are not likely to have an aquascaping style of their own in the near future or ever. All American art is a hodge-podge.

"Influence and evolution" is a fancy, 50 cent way to say copying and hybridizing.

Sure we learn from the past, but we don't say that we made up the numbers we use everyday, or we came up with democracy, etc. 

I never said that we can't come up with nice, original, artful tanks. BUT-- we won't really have a style for creating planted aquariums that's OURS untill some criteria are met. Just keep in mind that as a culture and society we're infants and quite heterogeneous, so the odds are against us....

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I was trying to say exactly what John said, not sure where I contradicted myself.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I totally disagree John. Influence and evolution is not a fancy way of saying rip off. They are two entirely different things. A rip off is plauderisim, (sp?)

Evolution is not plauderisim, (I still cant spell it) Evolution is the ability to adapt to ones own. There is no original music or art anywhere in the world, in any time of history: its all an evolution of what came before it. It is no different in America than anywhere else in the world.

It also has nothing to do with style. A "style" may be developed that is represenative of a region or society, or a set of values, religion, and is distinctive but yet influenced by other "styles". There is no such thing as an original style in its purest form.

Do you really want to get philosophical here? Whats the point? There are generally two recognized "styles" of aquascaping, but the definition of those two styles is even getting blurred and is really not that well defined. Is there something distinctive forming out of this that can be called an American style?

Perhaps a better question than is there an american Style, is is there anything else distinctive other than what we call Dutch or Japanese/zen? Does an alternative exist? Is anything else that is credible evolving from these two art forms?

I'm going to sort of switch gears here, but maybe this will tie into this...

On Taopa, Ricky Cain seemed to be complaining that the judges did not seem to appreciate what he was trying to accomplish, He felt points should be given to someone who states the goal of their design and ow close they reach their goal, regardless of what it actually look like. He said he was trying to represent a volcano in his aquascape. Well I went and took another look at it, and I'll be darned it really does look like a volcano! Knowing that, it looks incredible!

But do people want to see a volcano in an aquarium? Does it work as an aquascape? Would you call that art? A distinctive style? It certainly is unique. Is that abstract art in the aquarium? I found it interesting, and intriguing, but not pleasing to look at. It is too beyond what is currently acceptable.

Amano introduced a new "style" of aquascaping that evolved, (yes EVOLOVED John) from Japanese outdoor gardening and Zen philosophy, as well as artistic principals used in dutch aquascaping and photography such as the golden ratio. Do you think Amano was unique? Far from it.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Wed November 26 2003 at 02:27 AM.]

[This message was edited by Robert H on Wed November 26 2003 at 02:50 AM.]


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

I think there is something that can be called an American style, but it isn't a defined style. Not Yet. Its more of an idea. Its really people/artists who are starting to look for alternatives to the Dutch and Natural styles. Nothing may come out of it or lots may come out of it.

I went to the library yesterday. Even though its a small county library, there were still 13 shelves of books on different painter's styles. There were another three shelves showcasing different photographer's styles. In each case the artist studied the basics of art and studied the work of masters before developing what came to be known as a style. They didn't necesarily copy any one else's style or lack originality in their own work.

Maybe we call it an American style because of where we happen to be sitting, because we're searching for independence from the existing styles or because we don't have a better title yet. Personally I'm going back to the books and my tank and see what developes.

If anyone is interested, I'm trying to put together a book list for study. Any input would be appreciated.
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=5196060812&m=9496035994

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

OK, Robert-- 

Zen and its gardening cohort have remained largely unchanged for hundreds (thousands?) of years. The priciples were set, and that's the way they do things. Getting back to aquascaping, we can't achieve that yet.

The Zen principles that Amano uses in his 'scaping haven't evolved at all. He simply put them underwater. Perhaps Amano is evolving, but do we, as Americans, have a parallel? Certainly not.

Your angst is overwhelming, Robert. Amano IS unique, TO US (aquarists). In the world of art, he's a speed bump on the way to Tokyo...

>>Influence and evolution is not a fancy way of saying rip off. They are two entirely different things. A rip off is plauderisim, (sp?)<<

I NEVER SAID THAT!!!! Plagiarism (if that's what you meant) isn't possible in this activity. If your going to paraphrase someone, at least be accurate. 

We're still not ready as a sect of this hobby to call what we do a "style". Agree or disagree, we're not good enough or consistent enough yet.

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

John,

What you did say was:


> quote:
> 
> "Influence and evolution" is a fancy, 50 cent way to say copying and hybridizing.


Copying isn't exactly like plagiarism but aside from legal ramifications the effects are the same.



> quote:
> 
> I never said that we can't come up with nice, original, artful tanks. BUT-- we won't really have a style for creating planted aquariums that's OURS untill some criteria are met. Just keep in mind that as a culture and society we're infants and quite heterogeneous, so the odds are against us....


I don't believe that we need an ancient, homogeneous culture to generate a unique style in aquascaping or any other art. I also believe that "copying and hybridizing" can and does produce distinct styles.

In the first case, borrow an example from dance. Sure, American folk dance originates from European folk dance. But if you put a Scottish clogger down in a high plains hoe down he/she won't know their arse from a grand square. The dance is different. Not only *can* we generate unique styles -- we *have* generated unique styles.

The process is copying and hybridizing, and the result is unique. The Japanese gardening style that you seem to regard as uniquely Japanese was actually from China. In fact Zen, which we so often associate with the Japanese style also came from China and the Chinese got the basic religion from India. If "copying and hybridizing" didn't produce unique styles then all the world would be homogeneous. Every culture borrows something from someone else and modifies it to make it uniquely their own.

We don't need an ancient homogeneous culture to produce a common style -- all we need is a community of people who agree on what looks good.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

That's taking it to the other extreme, Roger. I understand what you and Robert are getting at, but it does take a homogenous culture to agree on what looks good.

Copying, imitation, influence (in this sense)-- What's the difference when we're talking about something with such limited tangibility as a "Style". I'm not super interested in playing the semantics game.

How long did the hybridization process take for Zen to reach Japan and become established? I'd bet it took a *long* time, many charismatic people, trials and errors, and lots of patience. I understand that with this modern age of communication-- most importantly the internet-- that ideas travel quickly, but not instantly and just because we want it to. The amount of Amercians who are interested in the creation/propagtion of this style wouldn't fill a high school auditorium, so there's still alot of ground to cover as those devoted will need to create new hobbyists.....

I tire of the subject. All this talk is really moot anyway. Isn't that what it all boils down to everytime this subject comes up? Are we still talking about Aquariums? I can't remember....

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well John you are the one who took it to this extreme, and now you are supporting what Roger and I are saying! Your arguement is all based on semantics, we are simply keeping it to a simple definition of style. I don't care which came first the chicken or the egg, I just want a new way of cooking the egg! Doesn't that make sense?

James, I think your book list is a good idea...

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

I haven't supported anything of the sort. I tend to be over analytical and therefore verbose, but in the end you will have the last word, I'm sure; however, I don't think your arguments are sound. That's just IMHO.

We'll have to wait and see how real the Amercian aquascaping style becomes. I hope for all our sakes that it comes sooner than later so that we can end this silly discussion

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

I think what's more important is that we all be thankful during this special holiday, especially since many of our fellow Americans are oversea protecting and fighting for a noble cause! Also, it is in America we have such a freedom as to discuss on something as philosophical-based as this topic







I for one do believe that there is a 'style' emerging in America. However, it is still in its infancy, and only time will tell which direction it will proceed~ Let's be more patient and less critical of each other for now. Turkey, anyone???

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

Paul


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

Ah! Such lively debate. I've enjoyed reading your many points of view. I hope you indulge me in posting mine.

In my opinion, I don't believe that there is an American style except if defined to be that which is not the Dutch or Nature Aquarium styles. In such small countries with engrained gardening techniques, it was relatively easy for a large portion of the aquarists to take on the "style" espoused by one or a handful of "masters". In a country as large and diverse as ours, a true style will take much longer to develop if at all.

Again, IMO, that is fine. What is the point of a style and its imitation? To see how good someone follows preset guidelines? I don't know if I want the universe of aquascaping clumped into two, three or more buckets. Such limitations are not good for a growing hobby.

If you ask ADA what the Nature Aquarium style is, they will tell you that it is the attempt to imitate nature in order to try to understand her...to honor her. To do this, you must first be a master aquatic gardener (i.e., you know how to grow aquatic plants). You then must understand composition as a photographer, landscape architect, etc. would. This allows you to use time-tested principles to make your aquascape more pleasing to the beholder. Then, you must take what you know and create something that is your own. This is what Amano did. It takes time and repitition. Like Jeff Senske, Amano began creating aquascapes commercially. This gave him the needed repitition.

However, we need to be careful with the "master" label. After all, what does that mean? If you ask Amano, he will tell you he is uncomfortable with such labels. It will mean different things to different people. 

Enough rambling...

Regards,

Art


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Art,
Glad to have you here. You should stop lurking and let us have the benefit of your opinion more often








It is much appreciated.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))
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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Yeah, Art, where have you been?

Hope all is well!

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

Hi James and John. All's well. Glad to be here. I hope you've been well also.

I took a little sabatical from plants and tried my hand on the saltwater side. It wasn't the same so I'm back.

Regards,

Art


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

For anyone who doesn't know Art, at one time he was the exclusive american distributor for Amano, and I believe he has met Amano? And for a brief time he moderated a Cryptocoryne forum on my old boards. But best of all he is just a hell of a nice guy!

Art, does this mean you are going to get back into growing Cryps?









Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## imported_Art_Giacosa (Nov 29, 2003)

Thanks for the kind words, Robert.









I probably will start growing crypts again, knowing myself. I'll keep things small this time as I no longer have my greenhouse.

Regards,

Art


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

Please take a look at these photos. Don't you think it's a beginning of a new aquascaping style? It was started in USA so it can be called 'american'









150L (40G) planted tank
click here for photo
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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Hi Marcin,

Those are great pictures of a marine planted tank. It might be the next generation of planted tanks but Tom Barr says availability is very limited at this time. 

Maybe Aquabotanic can create another niche in the industry by offering marine plants. What do you think Robert? I wonder if there is enough interest to start a forum here at Aquabotanic?

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't think so... salt water is a whole different world, a whole different expertise, and an extremly expensive hobby. I dont have a few thousand dollars to set up a bunch of marine tanks to stock the plants, and I know absolutely nothing about the marine hobby.

They are real pretty to look at, but I think very few freshwater hobbyists would have the money to fork out to go salt water just to keep some pretty looking algae. You think high tech freshwater plant tanks are expensive? You ain't seen nothing yet!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

It will be interesting to see how that tank works out.

Tom told me in Dallas that he would be going to the keys the next weekend to collect. I suspect that the "plants" in the tank were all or mostly all collected that weekend. If so, then that tank was very recently set up.

Everyone I know who tried transplanting algae from a natural environment has run into trouble. Most algae seem to be such specialists that they can't be moved around. Maybe the marine species that Tom is working with will prove to be different. Maybe not.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

He is good at finding stuff. When I met him in california, in those days he was into treking all over the backwoods of California finding plants in drainage ditches and mountain streams and lakes. He always managed to find something!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> and an extremely expensive hobby


It doesn't have to be expensive, you just have to keep the scale down and use lots of live sand/rocks. Check out Nano-reef.com. Along with weekly water changes all you need is salt water and a hydrometer. I don't think Tom had any special equipment on that tank.

*Journal Database*


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