# NPT soil question



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

HI,
About three weeks ago i set up a 5gal corner tank for my dads betta. It has a 15watt compact florescent bulb and receives some indirect sun. I used Organic choice Miricale gro potting soil, which i strained through a pasta sive then soaked in a bucket three times (it smelled even when i was done) I then added a small amount of a brown red soil from my garden to give some minerals and clay. I added a gravel cap from my established tank. this is a standard size gravel from petsmart, about 3 or 4 mm. I went on vacation and my mom looked after my tank, but it soon grew green algae on the walls and plants, which she removed and preformed a water change. In the tank i have one betta, bronze crypt, undulated crypt, water wisteria, sunset hygro, and anachris.
I returned to find the hygro and half the anachris dead, and soil had migrated above the gravel and coated the plants. I am moving the soil off the best i can, and i added a filter pad to the filter (Which was off) in order to get water circulation and catch extra dirt. Is the soil above the gravel a problem? how can i fix it? should i add another cap of a smaller gravel or pool filter sand? when i try to vacuum the dirt i end up sucking out even more from the bottom.

thanks
Mike


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## ILuvMyGoldBarb (Apr 7, 2007)

In my 125, I started with sand on top of my soil but that quickly changed when the soil couldn't oxygenate and I got lots of H2S in the soil. Eventually I simply mixed the sand into the soil and I've left it like that for about 2 months. I haven't had a problem with it yet. I would hold off on any bottom feeders for a while until the soil really gets a chance to settle and becomes well saturated so it doesn't have a tendency to float.


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Great, thanks for the reply. I was not planning on adding any other fish because it is just a 5 gal, although i am going to add some nerite snails and possibly some cherry shrimp if the plant growth becomes dense enough to shelter them. I am just going to give this betta his own little kingdom 

Is there anything i should do besides wait?

thanks,
Mike


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

Out of curiosity, is this your first soil based tank? To me it sounds like a classic case of not setting it up properly. This happened to me as well the first time I third to set up a soil based tank. The thing with soil based tanks is that they have to be set up correctly from the start to keep the soil out of the water column. My suggestion would be to bite the bullet and start over(even though you probably don't want to).

It sounds like you're on the right path but need a little tuning to your process. First, I'd safely remove the fish and plants. Clean up the plants of the excess soil. Then, I'd dump your tank contents and start over (Once dirt is wet, it's going to be impossible to layer gravel on top of it without drying it out first). Next time, be sure to add at least 1" of gravel to the 1" of soil (but no more than 1.5" of gravel). Fill the tank up carefully with enough water to cover it by about an inch or two. Check - is the water muddy? If so, you probably didn't add the water gently enough; drain the muddy water, check for exposed soil spots adding more gravel if necessary. Again, Add more water making sure it is clear. If it is, then you can plant your plants. This will make the water muddy (which is okay). Now, drain off all of the muddy water and again fill it up to about 2" with water. Check the water - if it's clear then finish filling up with water. If it's still muddy, then drain off all of the muddy water and refill with 2" of water until it is clear. This is really the most important step since it can mean the difference between clear water or a tank of muddy water. If your water still isn't clear, check that you (1) Aren't disturbing the soil sub-layer when you're adding the water (use a cup or plate so the water doesn't directly hit the gravel is a good idea) and (2) add more gravel to any thin spots as necessary. I ended up having to set up my first soil based aquarium twice because I didn't do it correctly. Good luck and let us know how it goes. And pics are nice as well.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll bet that Miracle-Gro soil was loaded with extra fertilizer, and the results would have been even more horrendous if you had not soaked it in a bucket and changed the water. I would recommend staying away from commercial potting soils because they are usually entirely organic and they usually have lumpy stuff such as partially composted tree bark so that they will drain easily in the pot. I use natural soil taken from a woods or from my back yard and I mix some peat with it. Peat decomposes slowly and won't cause excessive gas formation. I have also mixed commercial cow manure with natural soil, and the cow manure is supposed to be already composted, but, when I use cow manure, I let the soil-manure mix compost for a couple of weeks in a covered plastic storage container to make sure that rapidly decomposing substances get decomposed and only slowly decomposing substances remain. I don't recommend trying to add fertilizer to any substrate. For one thing, all nitrate nitrogen gets broken down to N2, which bubbles out. Most other nutrients can be absorbed by plants from the water column. Iron and manganese are made soluble in anaerobic soil and can be absorbed by plant roots, but these two nutrients also diffuse out of the soil in soluble form, and then get oxidized into insoluble forms which precipitate on plant stems and leaves, and the plant can absorb what it needs from the precipitate. In summary, I think that a dirt substrate should have some organic matter in it , but not be more than 50% organic and can be much less. Also, the organic matter should be the kind that decomposes slowly.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

My first start was a nightmare that nearly never ended. You can browse through some of my earlier posts in the 125 NPT thread if you want to see some examples of what NOT to do. On the plus side, after a little patience and some corrective measures I am now very pleased with my NPT's.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

My first El Natural tank was planted and filled 5 days ago. Everything went well until the driftwood decided to float, uncovering the soil layer and releasing it into the water. This wood had been soaking for a month and was sinking on its own. Apparently it dried out enough while I was working on the hardscape to float again.

I used Miracle Grow Organic Choice (MGOC), and the rather coarse particles quickly floated or sank. The floaters I removed with a net, the sinkers just settled into my rather coarse gravel layer (actually expanded shale) and disappeared. The next day the tank looked fine.

Now if I could get rid of the tanins that are turning the water amber. . .

Despite the floating wood mishap, the set-up went very smoothly and the plants are already putting on new growth!

BTW, I believe the MGOC is recommended specifically because it does not contain added synthetic fertilizers. It is composted bark, peat, and composted poultry litter.

--Michael


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies! Oh man, I did a huge amount of reaserch and bought The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium and i thought i had it figured out. I think I combined two methods by using the Orgainic Miracle gro and also soaking, thouroughly straining through a pasta sive, drying, then soaking and drying a couple more times. I was attempting to use the Miracle gro that people reccomended while avoinng problems like extra nutients (which i wanted to remove by soaking and drying) and tannins (by removing all the bark). I also did add a bit of red/orange dirt that i assumed was clay from my back yard. My gravel is also larger than the size that was reccomended in the book; I used it because I already had extra in an established gravel tank (Which i will soon swich to a NPT if we can sort this out) in hopes to seed it with bacteria.

the dirt was muddy when i added it btw. When i set it up a put in a ring of gravel, then the mud, then added gravel, then planted the plants. I only filled it up partialy a couple times and deflected it with a bowl. When i filled it up completely it was still somewhat cloudy but it cleared in a few days. The next time I saw it was when i returned three weeks later a few days ago. My mom did scrub green algae off it while i was gone and preform a water change. There is now a green algae in a ring around the walls just above the gravel line.

I am happy to set it up again if it will be effective, I just want to be posotive i am getting it right this time. What exactly did i do wrong? was there a problem by adding mud instead of dry dirt in my initial set up? Was my soil choice ok or should i go with all miriacle gro or all dirt from my yard? anything else i did wrong?

Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Here are some pictures


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

are you sure your mom didnt disturb the substrate while doing a water change?


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

No, I am not sure, that is a likely possibility, but i have been unable to remove the dirt. I think this is in part because when i syphon it out, more is sucked up to the top from under the gravel. People have mentioned problems with my set up though, and i want to convert my 29gal and 10gal, but i am holding off until i find out what the problems were and perfect the method. I have not seen substantial plant growth since i set it up a month ago, and some plants have died (anachris, hygro, sunset hygro) but the wisteria is doing great.

Is there anything i could do differently about my initial set up to improve it? (i.e. not messing with the potting soil)


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

potatoes said:


> My gravel is also larger than the size that was reccomended in the book; I used it because I already had extra in an established gravel tank (Which i will soon swich to a NPT if we can sort this out) in hopes to seed it with bacteria.


I've done that too; using existing gravel that isn't as fine as I would like. I'd recommend discarding it and getting gravel that's of a more appropriate size. (You may still be able to use it, but if this is your first time, you really don't want to take shortcuts until you know what you're doing).



potatoes said:


> the dirt was muddy when i added it btw.... I am happy to set it up again if it will be effective, I just want to be posotive i am getting it right this time. What exactly did i do wrong? was there a problem by adding mud instead of dry dirt in my initial set up? Was my soil choice ok or should i go with all miriacle gro or all dirt from my yard? anything else i did wrong?


The problem w/ using mud instead of dry dirt is that the gravel can (and will) sink into the mud, destroying the nice layers that you really need to have to keep dirt out of the water column. Overall, soil is a wonderful thing to have in the aquarium because it has a lot of nutrients for plants, particularly iron. However, the problem with soil in the aquarium, particularly the water column, is that it has a lot of nutrients for plants (and algae), particularly iron.

What Diana Walstad did was find a way to use soil in a way that (1) keeps it in the part of the aquarium where it's desired and needed (i.e. the substrate) and (2) keeps it out of the part of the aquarium where it's not desired and needed (i.e. the water column). To do this, you need to really pay attention and make sure that when you set up your aquarium, you keep the soil out of the water column. As I've mentioned before, the first time I set up a soil-based aquarium, it was a disaster and nothing like what Diana Walstad described in her book. Looking back over what I did, I was able to figure out what went wrong and fixed it (i.e. I didn't cover the soil sub-layer w/ enough gravel, i didn't drain off all of the muddy water after planting the plants, etc). From experience trying to fix a badly set up soil-based aquarium, I can say that's it's better to just tear everything down and start over, rather than trying to repair the aquarium in ways that don't really address the problem of soil in the water column. And looking at the pictures that you posted, it looks like you have a lot of exposed soil - that is the crux of the problem, IMHO. Exposed soil in a planted aquarium = bad (I believe the reason for this is in Diana Walstad's chapter on Fe).

One more thing - It's a good idea to apply a layer of tape around the bottom of the tank to keep light off of the soil layer. I use black electrical tape since it matches the color of my tank stand.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

my soil tanks usually take a month or so to get going, my best advice would be to be patient.

you can syphon the surface muck by hovering the hose above the substrate.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

The red soil used got from outside may also have had more nutrients in it than you thought, which could explain the algae explosion. So many variables, it's kind of mind boggling, even in its simplicity.


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies, i really appreciate it. My tank has now been going about a month, and i have not seen much plant growth. After my mom removed the algae while i was gone, i have not seen much besides the tinted-green algae encroaching up the walls from the substrate. You have all been very helpful, but i still have a couple questions. 

Should i add the Miracle gro oracnic soil as is, or should i remove all debris and soak it like i did last time?

what is an ideal cap for the soil? 

I am going to skip on the red soil as mudboots has an excellent point. I will also add dry soil, not mud. Any other problems with my set up? If i can perfect this, i am going to set up more tanks like this and even set some up for my highschool ecology teacher

Thanks again,
Mike


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

I have done it both ways. I usually just remove the large pieces of wood. If you do not remove the wood prepare for tannins leaching.

Pool filter sand works great for me.



potatoes said:


> Thanks for all the replies, i really appreciate it. My tank has now been going about a month, and i have not seen much plant growth. After my mom removed the algae while i was gone, i have not seen much besides the tinted-green algae encroaching up the walls from the substrate. You have all been very helpful, but i still have a couple questions.
> 
> Should i add the Miracle gro oracnic soil as is, or should i remove all debris and soak it like i did last time?
> 
> ...


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

thanks for the warning of tannins, I hadn't thought about that, i just thought they would cause algae. Do you soak and drain the dirt a couple times before you add it to the aquarium or just add if after removing the wood?
thanks,
Mike


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Here are pictures of the dirt at various stages. At which stage do i have the ideal dirt?

In the bucket, the lighter dirt on the left has been sifted, soaked, dried, soaked, dried, soaked, then dried once more. On the right, it has just been sifted but never soaked.

then i have pictures up close of the dirt in my hand. First it is the one i sifted and soaked. the next picture is it after just being sifted. The last picture is the plain dirt straight out of the bag. 

Which of these soils are at the right stage? That is the one big thing i am confused about so i hope these pictures help
thanks,
Mike


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Mike, honestly I think you could use MGOC at any of those stages. I used mine straight out of the bag, no additives, and just tried to pick out any sticks or wood chunks. There were very few of either. I did not soak, rinse, or wet the soil before I put it in the tank.

After the soil was in, I sprayed it with a mister just enough to moisten it, but not make it wet or runny. Then I put the cap over it, expanded shale in my case.

The tank is 2 weeks old. Except for some minor tanin stain in the water, everything is working perfectly. ALL the plants are growing, including notoriously slow species like Anubias. In fact I had to trim the Hygrophila 'Sunset' once already, and it is begining to need it again.

Ramshorn snails and Neocaridina shrimp went in a week ago, and they are thriving. Some of the shrimp were heavily berried (pregnant) females, and they did not lose their eggs. Normally the stress of being moved causes females to drop their eggs.

Can you tell I am a believer, LOL?

Two things I will do differently next time:

1. Make SURE that driftwood is fastened down!
2. Soak and rinse the soil once or twice to reduce tanins, just because I do not like the color of the water.

I'm a beginner too. The beauty of Walstad's method is that although it is based in sophisticated science, it is extremely simple to carry out.

Best of luck,
Michael


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Awesome, thank you. I guess i was just weighing too much importance on the soil, I just wanted to be sure to get it right! I am glad your tank is working out well, I am going to look into expanded shale as well. Thanks for your help,
Mike


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