# Bens 30G NPT - Requesting Advice!



## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Three weeks ago I started my first El Natural tank (also my first planted tank). I have had many issues/questions. Below is a brief (as brief as I could manage) history and summary of issues/questions. I welcome any responses regarding any issue from those with more experience.

1) The Plan: So I got a 30G tall tank, put in an inch of $1/bag potting soil whose label said it contained "pine bark, topsoil, sand & perlite" then an inch or so of gravel. Got a bunch of plants from Petco: Anubias barteri 'angustifolia', Hygrophila corymbosa 'Angustifolia', some variant of Vallisneria & 3 plants with no labels I can't identify (see pics). I put them in with some big rocks and a piece of "driftwood" that i found in the woods. It is hardwood, has been weathering for several years (no sign of bark, hollow), and is most likely oak, hickory, or dogwood as those are the only trees in the area. I bleach treated & rinsed it for several days. After about a week, all looked fairly well, so I transplanted 3 zebra danios and a guppy.

2) Lighting: I built a custom stand and hood. In the hood I put 2 regular screw-in sockets and metal flashing (galvanized steel, very reflective) reflectors. I was shooting for the 1.5-2 Watts/Gallon ration I had read about, but didn't understand whether those were incandecent watts, compact flourescent watts or what. I bought 2 x 8-watt LED bulbs that were supposed to be "40-watt replacement (incandescent)". So I thought I had 80 watts over 30 gallons, or 2.7 w/g, which is high for NPT. I later discovered that the watts/gallon ratios are not related to incandescent, but flourescent (compact or just flourescent?). After the plants started getting brown edges I did some more research and learned that my light was insufficient. I replaced the LED's with 26 Watt compact flourescents (100W replacement). I now think I have 52 watts, or 1.73 watts/gal.

3) White Stuff!?: After I realized my light deficiency and changed my bulbs, I decided to make a DIY CO2 setup to give the plants a boost (they had been light deprived for 2 weeks). In my ignorant exuberance I shook the yeast solution, and got some in the tubing, which I believe made it into my tank. Subsequently I got a MASSIVE explosion of white fungus-like hairy stuff all over my driftwood, glass, rocks & plants (I did not put 2 & 2 together at the time). I thought it was due to my driftwood. I now think it was Vorticella feeding off of the bacteria/sugar from the DIY CO2 burp. (I have a piece of the same log in another tank with no issues).

4) Meanwhile: I lost one Zebra Danio during the "white stuff" incident. Otherwise, the fish have always looked happy & healthy. I got a mystery snail and an amano shrimp, while I thought the white stuff might be algae, to help me clean the tank. All are OK. 

5) Now: So at the 3 week mark I did a 67% water change and massive scrub-down of all surfaces and now have a decent looking tank. Despite all of the stuff on them, the plants have shown noticable growth during the CO2 addition period. Now clean, they look pretty good. It has been only one day...so I am still crossing my fingers that the bacteria/sugar interpretation of the white stuff was accurate and that it won't come back. By the way...I have done probably 5-6 in-tank-scrub downs/33% water changes during the "white stuff" period. 

So...if you're still with me: 

Questions:

1) What did I screw up that I am not yet aware of, or what further issues am I in store for?

2) Does anyone know what these 3 unidentified plants are?


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

By the way, below is a picture of the whole tank today. Also, to clarify, the 3rd picture on the right of the unidentified plants...I'm wondering about the 2 long-stemmed, white/yellow plants on the right.

Thanks,

Ben


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

The plant on the right looks like a type of dracaena, a tropical rain forest plant that will not survive submerged. Shame on Petco for selling it as an aquatic plant. 

You will likely need to continue with the water changes until the plants fill in quite a bit - it is very lightly planted for an NPT - but looks like a good start. 

Have fun with it and keep posting.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

First, welcome to APC!

1) What did I screw up that I am not yet aware of, or what further issues am I in store for?

I think you know basically what went wrong. First the plants were starved for light, then the tank got too much CO2 and possible contamination from the yeast/sugar mix.

Now your light level is low but acceptable. Since you built the hood yourself, you might want to add one or two more spiral compact fluorescent lights. This will give you more even coverage over the tank, and allow you to experiment with different combinations of wattages. This is not urgent, just something to think about. BTW, GE makes a good 6500K SCF that you can buy at WalMart. 

Next, you don't have enough plants. El Natural tanks depend on dense planting from the start for success. By "dense" we mean 75% of the substrate should be covered with plants. Fast-growing stem and floating plants are very helpful at the start. You can take them out later if you don't like them, but you need them now.

You don't mention filtration or water circulation. You do need this, especially at the begining. You could add a power head (small submersible pump) to circulate the water, or a hang-on-back filter with just bio-media in it. I would not use an air stone or air-driven filter.

At this point, you do not need the DIY CO2. The pine bark in your soil will release CO2 as it decomposes. Later, fish will help. Wait until the tank is stable and doing well before you experiment with CO2.

It is pretty common for new wood in a tank to grow white fuzz or slime. This is harmless and will go away by itself. It is not normal for this to cover other objects, this makes me think you were right about sugar/yeast contamination.

2) Does anyone know what these 3 unidentified plants are?

Vicky is right about the Dracaena on all counts.

The first photo might be a cryptocoryne or possibly a Java fern, I can't tell for certain. Both do well in El Natural tanks, but the fern cannot have its rhizome burried in the substrate.

The second photo might be dwarf sagittaria. This would also be a good plant for your set-up. To see more good plants, go to the Plant Finder, and select "very easy" and/or "easy", then look for the species for low light.

Throw out the Dracaena, get lots more easy aquatic plants, and you will be on your way to a successful aquarium. Have fun!

--Michael



X2 on Vicky's identification of the Dracaena.


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for the very helpful quick responses!

Vicky, after searching for dracaena pics it is clear that you are right. After searching on several aquatic plant sites and seeing nothing like it, I had pretty much concluded it was not truly aquatic.

Michael, I hope you are right about the middle pic. I was thinking it might be kyoto grass, but the dwarf sagittaria pics look like a close match. It is not thriving by any means, but is not dead yet. 

As for the first pic, I still don't know. All of the Cryptocoryne pics I've seen have a relatively distinct wavy edge, which this plant does not have. Java ferns also seem to have distinctly textured (bumpy vein ridge) leave. Could be a variety of one or the other I haven't seen a good pic of yet. This one is healthy and growing well.

Filtration: I have an over-the-back filter running with just a fiber/mesh type filter for circulation.

CO2: I was not aware of any potential issues with excess CO2 short of the level that is toxic to fish. If you're saying some of my problems were caused by CO2, please explain. That is a new idea for me.

Vicky/Michael: I knew it was a little less green than most NPT's, but I didn't know how to estimate the number of plants I needed. The 75% coverage rule of thumb is helpful. Is there some rule of thumb for plants vs fish load in order to achieve the desired balance? I've been told that plants with extensive roots are more useful for waste/nutrient uptake. Is that true?

Thanks again for the input. I will post pics as the tank develops.

Ben


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I think your first px is a Echinodorus sp. It doesn't look like a crypt at all to me. They will have good roots and do well in a natural tank set-up.

You definitely need way way more plants. Check in the For Sale forum. People sell combo plant packages all the time. They will be good plants for a cheap price and you know they will all be aquatic.

Apart from hurting fauna, I have read were people say you can get too much CO2 and others say no. I don't know for sure. What I think you are being told is that it's unnecessary. The whole idea is that the tank is more self sufficient. There are issues caused by inconsistent levels of CO2. DIY is famous for that. SO... you are adding an element to your tank to manage that you don't need AND is difficult. Also if you are going to continue with the CO2 you will need to get a check valve. Do you have one? Your tank water and mixture should never meet. Many have their tubing go into a smaller water filled bottle first and from there into the tank. Check out this article and px. to see what I mean. This will keep the white slime from the yeast gas from your tank.
http://www.thenemosomen.com/page3.shtml


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Hi Ben,

I think "kyoto grass" is _Ophiopogon japonicus_ 'Nana'. This is a terrestrial plant that will not live in aquaria, but is often sold as as an aquatic by the same people who sold you the _Drancaena_. It typically has much darker green leaves than the plant in your photo.

I think Tex Gal is right about the first photo. And she is also right about the CO2. I didn't mean that it was necessarily harmful, just that you don't need it right now and it complicates things for no good purpose.

About fish stocking rates, once the tank is fully planted and stable, you can put in at least the normal number of fish for the tank size, and maybe more. There are several stocking rate calculators on the internet. The one I've used is at AquaAdvisor.

Plants with extensive, strong root systems are helpful for preventing anaerobic spots in the substrate. The roots carry oxygen down into the soil. In terms of waste/nutrient uptake, fast growing plants are the best whether they have strong roots or not.

--Michael


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## MiniBlueDragon (Jul 13, 2010)

To me the second photo bears a strong resemblance to a Vallis runner?


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Update: 

I took Tex-Gal's advice and went on the For Sale or Trade forum. Have a bunch of new plants on the way. 

White stuff has not come back.

I have some algae now, but not bad. I do have an oto and an amano shrimp to help.

Will probably increase the light a little when the new plants arrive. I have actually done a good bit of lighting research and have posted an Excel lighting calculator on the Lighting forum (inviting feedback on that).

Couldn't resist getting some fish and now have: oto(1), amano shrimp(1), guppy(1), zebra danios(5), opaline gourami(1), pearl gourami(1) an apple snail(1)...and what I guess is a pond snail that apparently came in one of my plants.

Despite advice to the contrary I've decided that the DIY CO2 can't hurt for now. I will probably discontinue when I feel the plants are well established and see if I can tell a difference.

I took out the non-aquatics, and I'll update my plant list and take new pics when everything gets here.

Thanks for all of the advice!


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Update:

Got rid of non-aquatics. Lost an anubias & the short grassy mystery plant.

Current plant list (light needs):

Anubias barteri var. angustifolia (Low)
Hygrophila corymbosa 'Angustifolia' (Medium)
Echinodorus (Medium)
Vallisneria (?) (Medium)
Mystery Plant (thinking Echinodorus sp.)
Marsilea minuta (Medium)
Heteranthera zosterifolia 'Stargrass' (Medium)
Poaceae sp. 'Purple Bamboo' (High)
Echinodorus 'Rose' (Medium)
Limnobium laevigatum 'Amazon Frogbit' (Medium)

Changed out my spiral CF's to 40 watt (2). The Purple Bamboo is pearling, so I'm thinking I finally have plenty of lights for the plants I have.

I was surprised to find that the "Purple Bamboo" exhibits a shocking lack of purpleness. I'm hoping it comes with age.

Hoping the Marsilea will carpet the whole front gravel area of the tank.

I am still doing DIY CO2 for now. I've added a bubble counter to avoid contamination. After fighting diffusing stones I am now using a DIY bell diffuser placed inside my HOB filter.

I had been doing 14 hrs of light per day and plants were not looking good, but algae steadily increased. After changing the bulbs and getting a timer I now do 11 hrs/day broken up with 2 siesta periods. I am hoping that with that regimen and my 3 Otocinclus and 1 Amano shrimp the algae will subside. Have only had this regimen for 2 days so far.

As you can see the tank is pretty yellow. I'm sure this is mostly tannins, but possibly augmented by the light shining through the frogbit. Also, the new lights are 2700k, which I understand could give a yellowish appearance.

Fauna: Zebra Danios (5), Otocinclus (3), Amano Shrimp (1), Guppy (1), Pearl Gourami (1), Opaline Gourami (1), Apple Snail/Briggs (1)

The Apple Snail has eaten the base of a couple of anubias, but I'm not sure if it had to do with them being unhealthy/near death. They were green, but not looking great and showing no new growth.

I will still be doing weekly water changes for a while just to dilute the tannins, so if I can control the algae the plants should have time to fill in.

I welcome any thoughts.

[Can't seem to upload images. Had same problem adding an avatar. Also the previous attached pictures aren't showing up. I think it's an APC site problem]


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Pics:


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You light is on for way to long. 10 hours max.

Is this with your new plants? Can you get some more plant mass in there? Do you have a pet store where you can go and get some hornwort or water sprite until you plant grow more? You need fast growers in there. You need about 75% planted. Take a look at some of Michael's tanks to get an idea of how dense it should be. If you don't get more plants in there you will have algae. Here's a couple of my old tanks as an example.

















Purple bamboo doesn't get extremely purple - just a little blush with high light.


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

I will go down to 9hrs/day of light.

And I will try to squeeze some more plants in. 

Thanks!


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

brokefoot said:


> I will go down to 9hrs/day of light.
> 
> And I will try to squeeze some more plants in.
> 
> Thanks!


Just remember whatever you put in now can be temporary until the plants you want will grow lush enough to fill in. You can then sell off your temporary plants in the end and recoup your cash.


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## brokefoot (Aug 23, 2011)

OK, I'm at 8hrs/day of light. Got a few more plants. All growing well. I've dropped the DIY C02. Algae is minimal. As things grow in a bit I'll take some more pics.

My current issue is that I continue to get a slight dusting of vorticella growing on my glass within a few days of cleaning it. I have done many water changes, so it can't be residual from the original yeast mixture burp. 

I'm wondering if I should feed the fish less. I feed them flake food twice a day, and very little if any makes it to the bottom of the tank. If it does it is scavenged pretty quickly. I would say the fish are definitely well fed, though. I've read that feeding "generously" is good for NPT setups, but I'm wondering if, with my still modest level of biomass, I have too much organic material leading to bacteria build-up...providing food for the vorticella.

Any thoughts?

I am also still getting a good bit of tannins, and I'm considering using Purigen. I've read that it doesn't adversely impact plant growth. Also wondering if it will help my vorticella issue.

Anyone have any experience with it?


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