# when to change co2 tank



## dirtyted

I am using pressurized co2 I have a 5 pound tank at what psi should I change the tank?


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## Andy Ritter

I think that is going to depend a lot on several important factors. 

In my case, I use a reactor to mix the CO2 with the water, and turn the solenoid on and off with a pH controller, so I'm not extremely concerned about bubble count. Many regulators will let the output pressure go up when the input pressure goes down, which will cause your bubble count to increase. Depending on ambient temperature, the pressure in the cylinder will be around 850-875 psi as long as there is any liquid left. When the pressure starts to drop, you know that all of the liquid is gone. However, in my case, I can typically get about another weeks worth of use before I have to worry about swapping out cylinders (I use 20 lb ones) by just using up the remaining gas. However, like I said before, the output pressure will start to slowly go up during this time (unless you have a better regulator than what is usually out there for hobbyists - I believe I read that two stage regulators don't do this, but they aren't as common). I have an Azoo regulator, and the output pressure is usually around 30-40 psi, but I've seen it go up to about 70 psi when the cylinder gets low. If you aren't using a controller that will turn off the CO2 for you automatically, you might not want to wait till the cylinder gets that low since you might risk overdosing your tank with CO2 and killing your fish. 

If you do choose to wait until the cylinder is almost empty, make sure that you don't let it go all the way empty. If you do, you risk having water go backwards through the hose and enter your regulator, which would be bad for it (and this is even if you use a check valve - I know, because I have had them fail before).

And lastly, it also depends on the accessibility of a replacement cylinder. If you are going to have to have yours refilled, then naturally it makes the most sense to schedule the refill when it is convenient. However, in my case, I have two spare cylinders, so I can swap one out almost at a moments notice, so I don't worry about it too much.

I hope that this helps.

Andy


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## Left C

The following is from part of an older article by Dave Gomberg. From: http://www.wcf.com/co2iron/faq.html

"*What happens when the tank starts to run out?*

*IMPORTANT: Read this carefully!*
As you use the CO2 in your cylinder, it gets lighter and lighter. When you have used about 80-90% of the gas, the pressure starts to drop from the 800psi or so it had when it was just filled. If you keep drawing gas, it will drop to zero eventually. But you don't want to do that, because at about 500psi or so, the regulator becomes unstable.

When the critical pressure is reached, the regulator will dump the entire remaining contents of the tank into whatever comes after the regulator. When this happens, the pressure on the output side of the regulator will rise dramatically. You can try to protect your aquarium by putting a pressure relief valve set at 20 psi or so on the output side of the regulator so this excess gas will just be vented into the room that contains the cylinder. If you were dumb like I was the first time, all the gas will be pushed into your tank. If you have a glass lid on it like I did, the "air" space over the tank will be monopolized by CO2, to the exclusion of oxygen. After a few hours your fish will die of anoxia.

Replace the tank when the pressure starts to drop, just like the gauge says. There is another reason to replace the CO2 cylinder when the pressure starts to drop. Catastrophic regulator failure described above frequently damages the regulator itself, often by making a hole in the diaphragm. This damage is not covered under warranty, it is your responsibility to ensure the CO2 cylinder is replaced before regulator failure occurs.

You can tell the tank is running out in a couple of ways. First, keep an eye on the high pressure gauge. When it begins to move off the 800psi or so it had originally, it is time to replace it. Another tool is to weigh the tank. The tare (empty) weight is usually stamped into the tank near the shoulder (ask your CO2 supplier to show you). Add two pounds for the gauge and the rest is CO2. When 80% of the CO2 is gone, it is time to be careful.

Of course the best thing is just to replace the tank. But if you can't do that for a few days, one strategy is to shut off the master valve. One filling of the high pressure side of the regulator will last for several hours (see the section on leak testing). That way, if the tank starts to seriously empty the regulator will not dump the whole thing.

Or to put it another way, here is just about all I know about managing compressed CO2 (sorry for the long answer):

In an un-managed configuration, a CO2 tank after a year to ten years of faithful service will run out of gas. When this happens, the regulator which has been providing a steady outlet pressure of say 10 or 20 or 30 psi (depending on how you have it set up) will suddenly fail and dump the 2-400 psi gas straight into the appliance (reactor or whatever) that you are feeding.

The purpose of this little diatribe is to tell you all I know about avoiding this problem.

There are three basic ways to manage your CO2 system and avoid end-of-tank failure. These are anticipation of end-of-tank, relieving the pressure pulse, or avoidance of the pressure pulse. Anticipation means that you track your CO2 usage or pressure and take steps to avoid the end-of-tank condition entirely. Relief of the pressure involves a special device designed to relieve the excess pressure during the pulse so that the rise at the appliance is small. Avoidance refers to using a regulator and associated control parts so that the pulse does not occur until the tank is totally exhausted, at which time the flow will stop.
*
Anticipation:*

Anticipation is the simplest and cheapest solution. One way to anticipate end-of-tank is to weigh the tank regularly. You can expect it to deliver about the announced volume (in pounds of CO2). If you plot weight versus tank age in days it should be easy to guess about when you will have reduced its weight by the 20 pounds of CO2 you bought. If you decide to replace it based on low weight, it would be interesting to empty it completely by opening the shutoff valve with the regulator removed to see (and weigh) how much gas actually remained.

Another way to anticipate end-of-tank is to closely monitor the high-pressure gauge on your regulator (if it has one). The pressure will START to drop weeks before an end-of-tank dump occurs.

Once an end-of-tank condition is anticipated, you can simply turn the gas off at night and when you are away until you have a chance to refill your tank.

Sadly, anticipation is unforgiving of inattention and if you don't notice the end-of-tank a disaster can occur. If your failure occurs during the day when your plants are metabolically active and producing lots of oxygen then no problem may ensue. Or if your tank is open-top, so that there is lots of atmospheric oxygen in contact with the water surface you are reasonably safe. But if your top has a tight fitting cover and the dump occurs when lights are out and your tank is heavily populated with fish, the CO2 in the gap between the water surface and the cover may physically drive off all oxygen, at which point your fish can suffocate.
*
Relief:*

Relief is based on the idea that the excess gas that would be delivered during an end-of-tank dump is simply vented into the atmosphere somewhere. The most convenient place to vent is usually right near your tank, but you can also plumb a plastic vent line to a more convenient location if desired. A relief system should also be tested on a routine basis to make sure that it is continuing to provide the protection it was designed to give.

Pressure relief devices come in two kinds: manufactured valves and water-head homebrew devices. Many valve companies make pressure relief valves that will trigger at about 20 psi which should suit most users. If you have a higher operating pressure, make sure you select a valve that vents at a pressure just a little higher than your norm. One manufacturer of pressure relief valves is Rexarc, you can contact their sales department at (937) 839-4604 ([email protected]).

You can also make a pressure relief device at home if you tap your system at a point where the pressure is supposed to be low (like right before the appliance, after any pressure-reducing check valve). At this point the pressure should be only a few feet of water (2 feet of water is about 1psi). Simply take a 6 foot piece of 3" plastic sewer pipe, put a plastic cap on one end, set it upright open end up and fill with water to about a foot from the top. Run a long piece of plastic tube or airhose down to the bottom of the sewer pipe and connect the other end to your CO2 line. As long as the pressure is less than the five feet of water in the sewer pipe, the pipe will do nothing. When the pressure rises to more than five feet of water, the excess gas will vent out thru the airhose, down to the bottom of the sewer pipe, and bubbling out the top. You can enhance this design by also capping the top and running a CO2 vent line made of plastic water pipe out to a more convenient location if you wish. Ensure the low end of the hose from the CO2 system stays at the bottom of the sewer pipe by weighing it down. Or use a rigid plastic pipe to convey the CO2 down to the bottom of the sewer pipe.

*Avoidance:*

A third strategy for managing end-of-tank failure is avoidance, referring to selecting system components so that failure simply does not occur. This can be an expensive strategy but should be considered if the stakes are high (such as many tanks or a very expensive setup). Avoidance strategies are like relief strategies in that they involving using different hardware.

One place to attack avoidance is at the regulator. There are two stage regulators (where one regulator feeds another, do not confuse with two gauge regulators), down-stream regulators (that regulate based on output pressure, not input pressure), and better grade regulators (that undergo much less pressure rise as the input pressure falls). All these strategies increase the cost of the system. Whether they are worth it depends on many too many factors for one person to attempt to decide for another. Generally speaking. if you are handy with tools and savvy enough to do your own CO2 system design, you should expect avoidance to add an extra $100-300 to the cost of your CO2 system.

I had considered the idea of adding a "avoidance" type system to my CO2 system line. I researched the issues carefully. Although I could buy a better grade regulator for only about $30 more than a cheaper one, the company that made it interprets ISO rules to prohibit making special versions of their products (even if it only means omitting parts that are normally added at the end). So I would have had to remove the original and build new output plumbing of the regulator myself. With the labor costs, warranty, and liability issues, this just was not practical. So I dropped the idea. If you want to pursue this idea on your own, call Praxair and ask them about a Victor SR253-B320-06 and get out your tool box."

_(I can add a bit to "avoidance" mentioned above. I've found that I can bargain shop and find new two stage regulators, new metering valves and new solenoids at very reasonable prices. I get out my wrenches too and build my own. They can usually be built much cheaper than you would think.)_


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi dirtyted,

I change out my CO2 tank when the tank pressure has dropped noticeably below 800 psi. My cylinder pressure is typically +/- 800 psi as long as there is liquid CO2 inside. Once all the liquid CO2 has been converted into gas, the pressure starts to drop below 800 psi. Usually I have about 3 or 4 days from the time it drops below 800 psi until the cylinder is empty. Since I don't change my bubble count for my aquariums my changing interval is pretty consistent. I get about 6 weeks on a 5# tank running two aquariums (45g. and 30g.) 24 hours per day.


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## Left C

I forgot to mention that I run my CO2 cylinders until they are empty because of my two stage regulators.


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## PlantedAquarium

I have a "Beverage Factory" 2 gauge regulator on a 5 gallon CO2 and there is a pressure relief (saftey blow of 55-65 ) valve on the regulator body. I am also concerned about tank dump, as my psi has dropped dramatically. I am using a Fabco micro-fine needle valve with a bubble counter and diffuser. No dead fish, but I'm refilling the CO2 tank today. Could I just let it go empty without any worries?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi PlantedAquarium,

I see you are new to APC.....welcome. You sure know how to put up an interesting first post! LOL!! "End-of-Tank-Dump" is a widely debated subject; some say it doesn't happen, others swear it has happened to them.

Although I make an effort not to let my tank become empty; I have had my cylinder drop to zero a few times with no problems. I did buy the Ideal 52-1-12 because I have a single stage regulator and I had read that the Ideal valve helped to prevent end-of-tank-dump. I guess the best answer is not to let if happen if you can avoid it.


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## khanzer22

Just want to share, IME using Azoo regulator (single stage), most of the time I just see, without noticing, that my CO2 cylinder is already empty and there's no ill effect with my fish with regards to tank dump... But don't do what I do though, it just happen when I'm not home!


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi dirtyted,
> 
> I change out my CO2 tank when the tank pressure has dropped noticeably below 800 psi. My cylinder pressure is typically +/- 800 psi as long as there is liquid CO2 inside. Once all the liquid CO2 has been converted into gas, the pressure starts to drop below 800 psi. Usually I have about 3 or 4 days from the time it drops below 800 psi until the cylinder is empty. Since I don't change my bubble count for my aquariums my changing interval is pretty consistent. I get about 6 weeks on a 5# tank running two aquariums (45g. and 30g.) 24 hours per day.


Hi Seattle_Aquarist,

How far bellow 800 psi would you say ? To 700, 600, 500 ? Thanks.


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## bsmith

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi PlantedAquarium,
> 
> I see you are new to APC.....welcome. You sure know how to put up an interesting first post! LOL!! "End-of-Tank-Dump" is a widely debated subject; some say it doesn't happen, others swear it has happened to them.
> 
> Although I make an effort not to let my tank become empty; I have had my cylinder drop to zero a few times with no problems. I did buy the Ideal 52-1-12 because I have a single stage regulator and I had read that the Ideal valve helped to prevent end-of-tank-dump. I guess the best answer is not to let if happen if you can avoid it.


I do not see how a needle valve can help EOTD. All the NV does (no matter how expensive) is regulate co2 flow based on its input pressure. So again, no matter how nice the valve is, if the input pressure to the NV goes from 20psi to 200psi then you would get a 10x's increase in bubble rate.

Not trying to start and argument but at least this is how I interpret the NV's function. So please let me now what you think.

Dirtyted- If you want to make sure nothing happens to your animals then you need to change the tank as soon as you see your tank pressure drop from 850-800 (whatever it is in your home) at all. This is when output pressures will begin to fluctuate.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

I try to change out my tank at about 400 PSI.

@ bsmith,

Per the Rex Grigg website:


> *Ideal 52-1-12 Needle Valve*
> 
> 
> Ideal 52-1-12 Needle Valve
> 
> Ideal 52-1-12 Needle Valve. $70
> Simply the best valve you can get for under $150. Rock solid. *Bubble rates as low as 2 bubbles per minute*. *No "end of tank dump" problems*. Valve has 1/8" NTP ports. Hex nipples and tubing adapters available.


All I talk about is my own personal experience. What I can say is I have let my tanks go to "0" PSI on a number of occasions and have never experienced an "end of tank dump" (EOTD). In fact, I specifically asked if any members of GSAS have experienced EOTD and none had. I am not saying it doesn't happen, just that I do not know of anyone who has had it happen to them.


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## barbarossa4122

Thank you Seatle_Aquarist.


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## bsmith

Rex is not the end all here. I'm going to send a few emails to swaglok and ideal and see what they say.


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## bsmith

I am still awaiting the response from Swagelok but I received an email today (emails sent last night) that said my message was being forwarded to the sales department. 

Ideals response:

Hi Brandon,

I believe your assumption that flow volume will increase is correct. I hesitate to say that it will be exactly proportional but it should be close. The needle valve only controls flow, more pressure at a particular setting means more flow.



Thanks for using Ideal Valves.

Bill Sand

701-352-1164


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi All,

I was doing some research on EOTD last night trying to get some idea of the possible parameters. One example I came across mentioned that the output of a regulator could change by as much as 2 PSI if EOTD occurred. It further stated that if the output pressure was set at 5 PSI the 2 PSI increase would equate to a 40% increase. It also said that if the output pressure was set at 20 PSI the 2 PSI increase would equate to a 10% increase. 

If I run my output pressure at 20 PSI, and I maintain a bubble count for 30 ppm of CO2, then a 10% increase in output pressure, and a resulting 10% increase in flow, would raise my CO2 ppm by 10% to 33 ppm.


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## wet

In regards to needle valves and End Of Tank Dumps, perhaps there's a correlation to folks getting nice needle valves also getting nice dual stage regulators that we're missing? Or perhaps it's something like folks investing in nice needle valves also happen to be more cautious about when to change CO2, or some other thing like it...

Or maybe it's just the needle valve and these ideas need baking.

I've experienced End Of Tank Dump with a Milwaukee (single stage regulator) and its Clippard needle valve. Bubbling violently out of the reactor and into the tank type of dump. I've switched to a Fabco since but have also not allowed end of tank dump to happen. (It's just not worth the, what, $2? lost by filling up early.) I realize this one sample means nothing, but something to add to the pile. 

... so, fwiw, I like the Fabco for its finer control regardless, but wish for a less stiff action in the turn of it. I like the AGA Dual Stage/Swagelok valve I scored from Plantbrain the most and would drop the coin again, easily. (I think he let it go for cheaper than a Milwaukee.) It's an easy valve, and the dual-stage bit is nice peace of mind.


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## ray-the-pilot

I have a CO2 controller and a two stage regulator. I always run my tank out. I have a spare ready to replace the dead one. I have two one way back vlow valves and have never had water back up past the first.


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## bsmith

I got a call from the Swagelok sales rep a couple days ago and he also assured me that no matter how expensive/precise the NV was that it in no way could stop an EOTD from occurring. He said the only thing that had that could possibly stop it from happening would be a inline pressurized flow diverter that could re route co2 when a certain pressure level was attained. This would also cost at a minimum $150 so in our circumstances just buying a good dual stage regulator for $60 would be the obvious choice.


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## barbarossa4122

wet said:


> I've switched to a Fabco since but have also not allowed end of tank dump to happen.


Hey Wet,

How do you like the Fabco 55 valves? I ordered 3 to use with dual stage regulators (Victor and Concoa) for my new 2 co2 set ups.


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## Left C

FROM: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/73351-new-co2-8.html#post557500



Hoppy said:


> j said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hoppy is right, that when the pressure increases at End of Tank, the bubble rate increase through the needle valve with a Single Stage regulator.
> 
> What a good needle valve does is to react less to that pressure increase so that you will get a little more CO2 release, but not enough to kill your tank.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that is a myth, although a very popular one. A needle valve has no mechanism for reacting to anything. You can turn the handle and change the bubble rate, but other than that nothing changes in the needle valve as the pressure builds up. The advantages of a good needle valve are, you can adjust the bubble rate easily, sometimes taking a full turn of the valve handle to drop/raise the rate to where you want it, and the needle stays where you left it, even if you lightly bump the valve. Really cheap needle valves can double the bubble rate if you just tap the valve handle, and lightly bumping it can also double the bubble rate, or drop it to zero.
> __________________
> Hoppy
Click to expand...




Hoppy said:


> v said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never experienced a dump but from what I've read a very good needle valve will stop this from occurring.
> 
> 
> 
> A needle valve, whether good or bad, is just a variable size orifice. In our case, the orifice is extremely small, almost microscopic. The laws of nature dictate that if you apply pressurized gas to one side of an orifice, you get a specific flow rate out the other side. Raise the applied pressure and the flow rate goes up, either proportional to the square root of the pressure difference across the orifice or directly proportional to that pressure difference. For the size orifice we use, it is directly proportional to the pressure difference. (Strictly speaking, it isn't an orifice in our needle valves, but an approximately cylindrical shaped slit, having a significant length, making it a laminar flow restrictor.)
> 
> If you spend $1000 on the best needle valve money can buy, the same principles apply. There is no brain in a needle valve.
> 
> It is the pressure regulator, and only the pressure regulator that can cause "end of tank dump".
> __________________
> 
> All of us can be assumed to have a pair of working eyes. I say that, because enjoying a planted tank requires the ability to see it. So, we have the scientific instruments necessary for determining the cause of "end of tank dump". Do two experiments: First, when you get a newly filled, and very cold bottle of CO2, hook it up to the regulator, set the output pressure to 20 psi, for example, with some bubble rate coming out, look at the inlet pressure gage, and note what will probably be about a 500 psi reading (caused by the very low temperature of the gaseous CO2 in the bottle.) Wait a couple of hours and look at the pressure gages again. You will note that the inlet gage now shows a higher pressure, caused by the gaseous CO2 increasing in temperature. But, you may also note that the outlet pressure has dropped, possibly to near zero. If you see this you will have shown that your regulator produces an output pressure that is inversely proportional to the inlet pressure - when the inlet pressure goes up, the outlet pressure goes down.
> 
> Store that data somewhere, and wait a few months for the CO2 bottle to start to run out. As soon as you see the inlet pressure to the regulator drop 50 psi or so, read the outlet pressure gage. Wait a day, and the inlet pressure to the regulator will have dropped another 100-200 psi (there is only gaseous CO2 in the tank now, so the pressure drops as you use that gas up). Read the outlet pressure. If you note that the outlet pressure has increased over what it was the day before, you have verified that your regulator gives an outlet pressure that is inversely proportional to the inlet pressure - as the inlet pressure drops, the outlet pressure rises.
> 
> The Milwaukee regulator I owned and used for a few years behaved just as I described. And, since the bubble rate (flow rate through the needle valve) is proportional to the pressure applied to the inlet to the needle valve, the bubble rate rises as the bottle runs low on CO2. That is "end of tank dump". I killed enough of my fish because of this to justify the use of my scientific instruments - my eyes - to determine the cause, and it is what I just described.
> 
> If you don't have a Milwaukee regulator, or, to be most accurate, if you didn't buy that regulator from me a few months ago, your regulator may not operate this way. Mine did, and I doubt that any Milwaukee regulator would operate any differently.
> __________________
> Hoppy
Click to expand...




Hoppy said:


> I had an "end of tank dump" every time my 5 pound tank ran out of liquid CO2, using a Milwaukee regulator. I also watched carefully a few times to see why it happened, and the reason was that the outlet pressure from the regulator would rise considerably as the inlet pressure dropped. Since the flow rate through a needle valve, no matter how expensive, cheap, good, or poor it is, is directly proportional to the inlet pressure to the needle valve, the bubble rate would rise as the regulator outlet pressure went up.
> 
> A needle valve is just a variable orifice, and for the flow rates we use, that orifice is so small that the flow through the needle valve is laminar, meaning that the flow rate is proportional to the differential pressure across the valve and not the square root of the differential pressure. So, an increase in the pressure applied to the needle valve increases the bubble rate proportionally.
> 
> I have no idea whether or not all Milwaukee regulators work as mine did, but I do know how mine operated. From other's experience reported here, I have to assume I had a lemon of a Milwaukee regulator. I am totally satisfied with the 2 stage regulator I now use - no end of tank dump at all.
> 
> Part of the "confusion" is the belief that a regulator operating at 5-20psi output pressure has an easy job compared to one operating at 10 times that pressure. That isn't true. A good regulator will hold its outlet pressure constant come hell or high water - full tank, virtually empty tank with only gas in it, high temperature, low temperature, etc. The really cheap ones, of which I would rate Milwaukee as a poor example, won't do that. My Milwaukee's output pressure varied with everything from the astrological sign to the state of the tides. It may not have varied much, but it was enough to change the bubble rate. And, the bubble rate is determined in equal parts by the output pressure and the size of the orifice that regulates the flow. A perfect needle valve is only perfect because that orifice remains exactly as set, and can be adjusted in very small increments. But, if the regulator output pressure varies, the bubble rate will vary in direct proportion to the change in output pressure (for the minute flow rates we use).
> 
> As Left C said, if you can get a used great quality regulator cheap, you can afford a great quality needle valve, and you then have the best of regulator assemblies.
> 
> In my opinion, "end of tank dump" is entirely caused by the regulator allowing the output pressure to rise as the tank pressure drops. The needle valve has nothing at all to do with it, since it is just a variable orifice that you set, and it stays where you set it. The flow through any orifice, including a needle valve, is proportional to the pressure applied to the orifice, so the rising regulator output pressure results in a rising bubble rate. If you run near maximum bubble rate, it doesn't take a big rise to be enough to kill the fish.
> __________________
> Hoppy





plainbrain said:


> Many reg's do not have adjustment for output pressure
> These reg's suck.
> Dual gauge reg's are great also.
> 
> You'd figure given the risk, livestock, importance of CO2, folks would tell new folks and suggest to others to go all out on a nice well made CO2 dual stage reg, solenoid(never add CO2 at night), good current, nice well made needle valve.
> 
> And yet many do not..............
> 
> Some of it, if not most is user error, but this can be reduced, perhaps a lot, by using decent stuff.
> 
> Most of the hobby brands are simply put: rubbish, junk, garbage.
> They are not that much of a cost savings either.
> 
> So put the funds where it will help the most.
> Spend less $$$ on more watts for lighting and go good on CO2.
> Worth every penny.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr





Hoppy said:


> What we usually call a "regulator", like the Milwaukee one, is really an assembly of a regulator, needle valve, solenoid valve and often a bubble counter. A regulator from ebay will probably not include those extra parts, so the cost savings that way are diluted by having to buy the extra parts. Still, getting an industrial or lab quality regulator on ebay for $20-$50, and adding a good needle valve gives you the absolute best "regulator" you can ever get, even if it ends up costing a bit more than the regulator assemblies made for aquarium use.
> __________________
> Hoppy


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## ray-the-pilot

bsmith said:


> I got a call from the Swagelok sales rep a couple days ago and he also assured me that no matter how expensive/precise the NV was that it in no way could stop an EOTD from occurring.


What is a needle valve?

I'm always amazed at how backward this board is? Has no one ever heard of an electronic regulator? No needle valve and always the right flow rate (ie bubble rate) measured electronically!

I really-really run my tank out every time and have never-never had a CO2 dump. I've been doing this for 2 1/2 years, changed many tanks.


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## Left C

ray-the-pilot said:


> I have a CO2 controller and a two stage regulator. I always run my tank out. I have a spare ready to replace the dead one. I have two one way back vlow valves and have never had water back up past the first.


I know that you have the aquariumplants.com electronic regulator assembly. I didn't know that you have a two stage regulator as well. Which two stage regulator do you have?


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## bsmith

ray-the-pilot said:


> What is a needle valve?
> 
> I'm always amazed at how backward this board is? Has no one ever heard of an electronic regulator? No needle valve and always the right flow rate (ie bubble rate) measured electronically!
> 
> I really-really run my tank out every time and have never-never had a CO2 dump. I've been doing this for 2 1/2 years, changed many tanks.


The AP electronic regulator seems cool but I have read/heard that it is not the most dependable piece of equipment and has a failure rate that is pretty unacceptable.

I have a question though. What happens if there is a power failure? I assume that it just shuts off and closes allowing no gas to escape. I hope so. Thats why I like my Victor/Concoa DSR, no electronics and dead nuts accurate.


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## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> What is a needle valve?
> 
> I'm always amazed at how backward this board is? Has no one ever heard of an electronic regulator? No needle valve and always the right flow rate (ie bubble rate) measured electronically!
> 
> I really-really run my tank out every time and have never-never had a CO2 dump. I've been doing this for 2 1/2 years, changed many tanks.


Hi Ray,

AP asked for $846.00 for a two tank set up including a 10lbs co2 cylinder. For about $500.00 I have one two tanks setup and one one tank set up. This includes:
Concoa two stage http://www.concoa.com/docs/catalogs...0 Series/ADC 3010 AC 212 Series Regulator.pdf
Victor two stage 253b








Victor two stage 453b(as spare)








3 Fabco nv55








3 solenoids (don't know what kind yet but, I bet they are good ones)
3 co2 cylinders (a ten and two fives)
and everything else like bubble counters, drop checkers, tubing, check valves, 4dH solution, dual manifold, fittings and so on.

I can say that $846.00 is not too much but, to be honest I do not fully trust the electronic set up.


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## bosmahe1

I run a Victor VTS 250 with an inline Fabco needle valve on Paintball cylinders because of space limitations. I pretty much run the cylinder empty before swapping it for a full one. I don't have to tweak the needle valve after initial set up.


__
https://flic.kr/p/4379697140

It isn't elegant but, that's what the cabinet door is for. 
I don't use the bubble counter anymore. I used a sharpy to mark the preferred setting on the needle valve. I just turn the output pressure knob on the regulator to 10 PSI after installing a full cylinder and it's good to go. A cylinder lasts me 5 weeks if, I don't fiddle with it.


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## bosmahe1

In the past, I have run beverage and Redsea regulators with a Redsea needle valve and the output pressure would increase as the paintball cylinder pressure would decrease(empty). I would just tweak the output knob everyday back to 15 psi until I swapped the cylinder. Those days I ran the CO2 24/7 at a lower bubble rate. If I knew I was going out of town, I would swap the cylinder sooner. Not a big deal but required me to look at it every morning.

Now with the solenoid, two stage regulator and Fabco needle valve, I just take a look at the gauges and don't have to tweak anything.

I spent more money on the Redsea than I did on the two stage. :-(
Oh well, when you don't know, you don't know!


----------



## bosmahe1

ray-the-pilot said:


> What is a needle valve?
> 
> I'm always amazed at how backward this board is? Has no one ever heard of an electronic regulator? No needle valve and always the right flow rate (ie bubble rate) measured electronically!
> 
> I really-really run my tank out every time and have never-never had a CO2 dump. I've been doing this for 2 1/2 years, changed many tanks.


Actually if you look at it, it looks like a cornelius beverage regulator with an electric valve and circuit board that times(pulses) the opening and closing speed of the electric valve according to the potentiometer (knob) setting on the front. Alot of money for electric valve and timer. There isn't anything that "measures" the CO2 delivery.

Sorry, I couldn't resist after the "backwards" comment.


----------



## Left C

barbarossa4122 said:


> ... 3 Fabco nv55
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi C

Where did you get those Fabco's with the "push-quick" tubing fittings?


----------



## barbarossa4122

Left C said:


> Hi C
> 
> Where did you get those Fabco's with the "push-quick" tubing fittings?


Hi Left C,

I'll send you a pm.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

bosmahe1 said:


> Actually if you look at it, it looks like a cornelius beverage regulator with an electric valve and circuit board that times(pulses) the opening and closing speed of the electric valve according to the potentiometer (knob) setting on the front. Alot of money for electric valve and timer. There isn't anything that "measures" the CO2 delivery.
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist after the "backwards" comment.


You right! I need a bubble counter!


----------



## ray-the-pilot

Left C said:


> I know that you have the aquariumplants.com electronic regulator assembly. I didn't know that you have a two stage regulator as well. Which two stage regulator do you have?


I have a Victor inert gas two stage regulator.


----------



## Left C

ray-the-pilot said:


> I have a Victor inert gas two stage regulator.


Thanks.

May I ask which model? Victor has a slew of inert gas two stage regulators.


----------



## bosmahe1

ray-the-pilot said:


> You right! I need a bubble counter!


You already have the $150.00 bubble counter.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

bsmith said:


> The AP electronic regulator seems cool but I have read/heard that it is not the most dependable piece of equipment and has a failure rate that is pretty unacceptable.
> 
> I have a question though. What happens if there is a power failure? I assume that it just shuts off and closes allowing no gas to escape. I hope so. Thats why I like my Victor/Concoa DSR, no electronics and dead nuts accurate.


I've had mine for almost 2 years and no problem. The regulator is normally off so when there is a power failure gas is off. Actually, that is how I shut it off, I pull the 6 volt DC power cord out.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

bosmahe1 said:


> You already have the $150.00 bubble counter.


And regulator and solenoid valve!


----------



## ray-the-pilot

Left C said:


> Thanks.
> 
> May I ask which model? Victor has a slew of inert gas two stage regulators.


It is hard to read. I bought it used at the welding supply place where I buy CO2. It looks like Model VTS450D Gas Service Inert. Hope that helps.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> I can say that $846.00 is not too much but, to be honest I do not fully trust the electronic set up.


I'm not sure why they quoted $846 because the basic regulator is only $189 and you don't need anything else except a CO2 tank and check valve.

I fully trust mine and have been using it for almost 2 years. It has without a doubt been the most reliable regulator I have had.


----------



## Left C

ray-the-pilot said:


> It is hard to read. I bought it used at the welding supply place where I buy CO2. It looks like Model VTS450D Gas Service Inert. Hope that helps.


Thanks. That is a nice one. It is a bit larger than the VTS250 series, but it does a great job too.


----------



## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> I'm not sure why they quoted $846 because the basic regulator is only $189 and you don't need anything else except a CO2 tank and check valve.
> 
> I fully trust mine and have been using it for almost 2 years. It has without a doubt been the most reliable regulator I have had.





> Payment Info:
> 
> Purchase Order # proposal
> 
> Shipping Method:
> 
> Equipment over 175.00 FREE shipping
> Order Details:
> 
> Code	Item	Qty	Price	Total
> PR4026	COMPLETE ULTIMATE Co2 SYSTEM (best of the best)($500+ VALUE ! )(ON SALE)
> [Choose Your Reactor:External 5000 w/Probe holder]
> [Reactor Hose Fittings for Upgrade:1"]	1 $459.97 $459.97
> Co2-eb	Electronic Boxes (for multiple aquariums)(must be added at time of purchase)
> 1 $129.99 $129.99
> ext5000	External Reactor 5000 (EXT5000)
> [Hose Fittings Inside Diameter:1/2"]	1 $99.99 $99.99
> ph1	External Probe Holder/Mount
> 1 $29.99 $29.99
> pr375	Co2 Resistant Tubing 10' length)
> 1 $6.90 $6.90
> T10F	Aluminum Co2 Cylinders (new)(10 lbs)(full)
> 1 $119.99 $119.99
> 
> Sub Total:	$846.83
> :	$0.00
> Shipping:	$0.00
> Grand Total:	$846.83
> 
> Thank you for shopping at AquariumPlants.com!
> Visit us again at https://www.AquariumPlants.com/


There you go Ray
This is the e-mail proposal I got from them after a phone conversation. I was expecting around $650.00 but, not $846.00. It just turned me off immediately, actually I felt like I was being robbed to tell you the truth. This is what I wanted to get to supply co2 for 2 tanks:
http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/pr4026.htm


----------



## ray-the-pilot

barbarossa4122 said:


> There you go Ray
> This is the e-mail proposal I got from them after a phone conversation. I was expecting around $650.00 but, not $846.00. It just turned me off immediately, actually I felt like I was being robbed to tell you the truth. This is what I wanted to get to supply co2 for 2 tanks:
> http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/pr4026.htm


I have no relationship with Aquariumplants.com other than the fact that I have purchased a lot of stuff from them. With that said I cannot understand why you didn't buy the the AP.C stuff?
Did you get a CO2 Controller with what you bought? a reactor? Do you have a proposal from where you bought your stuff from? 
I'm curious why you didn't go with the AP.C buy.


----------



## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> I have no relationship with Aquariumplants.com other than the fact that I have purchased a lot of stuff from them. With that said I cannot understand why you didn't buy the the AP.C stuff?
> Did you get a CO2 Controller with what you bought? a reactor? Do you have a proposal from where you bought your stuff from?
> I'm curious why you didn't go with the AP.C buy.


Yes I got 2 Rex style reactors with what I bought. I will take pictures as soon as I put everything together and post them, this way you can get a better idea.



> *With that said I cannot understand why you didn't buy the the AP.C stuff?*


Would you pay $846.00 for a co2 system when you can built 2 for about $500.00 ?
Btw, why are asking if I have a proposal from where I bought my stuff? Do you mean from ebay?


----------



## ray-the-pilot

barbarossa4122 said:


> Would you pay $846.00 for a co2 system when you can built 2 for about $500.00 ?


I think (but I'm not sure) you have an uncontrolled CO2 system.

This is OK but it is, as I say, a little backwards.

People have lived with this type of system and it is not fatal but it is not what I would want for my fish and plants.


----------



## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> I think (but I'm not sure) you have an uncontrolled CO2 system.
> 
> This is OK but it is, as I say, a little backwards.
> 
> People have lived with this type of system and it is not fatal but it is not what I would want for my fish and plants.


OK but, I also value the advice I got from Left C , Tom, Matt F and other folks that are very, very experienced with co2.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7879-How-to-build-a-Victor-SGT-500-Regulator
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7785-How-to-build-a-Victor-VTS253b-320
http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...with-1-8-quot-FPT-and-vernier-metering-handle


----------



## ray-the-pilot

barbarossa4122 said:


> OK but, I also value the advice I got from Left C , Tom, Matt F and other folks that are very, very experienced with co2.le[/url]


Have fun! Actully growing plants in an aquarium is really very easy and there are a lot of ways to do it.


----------



## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> Have fun! Actully growing plants in an aquarium is really very easy and there are a lot of ways to do it.


I love this hobby. You too Ray, have lots of fun. Lol, I'll still post the pics with my set ups.


----------



## bosmahe1

Just some links I found describing the APC regulator:

http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts....riumplants-coms-electronic-co2-regulator.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/83059-co2-system-aquariumplants-com.html

http://www.azaquaticplants.com/community/showthread.php?t=9651


----------



## Left C

The "The Best" electronic regulator has a 0 to 15 psi working pressure.

Let's say that you are running a check valve with approximately 0.5 to 1.0 psig cracking pressure and a decent sized fine pore ceramic disc diffuser the requires a bit of force to push the CO2 through as well.

Now, 1 psig = 14.67 psi or approximately 15 psi.

You are at or near this 15 psi limit that is imposed on this product.

Their original "The Best" had a Cornelius regulator with a 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauge. This regulator had problems blowing its low pressure gauge.

I wonder how this electronic regulator works at or near its 15 psi limit with some restrictive devices like those mentioned above?

Both of the "The Best" models shown side-by-side.








This picture is from: http://www.azaquaticplants.com/community/showthread.php?t=9651


----------



## ray-the-pilot

*??????*



Left C said:


> The "The Best" electronic regulator has a 0 to 15 psi working pressure.
> 
> Let's say that you are running a check valve with approximately 0.5 to 1.0 psig cracking pressure and a decent sized fine pore ceramic disc diffuser the requires a bit of force to push the CO2 through as well.
> 
> Now, 1 psig = 14.67 psi or approximately 15 psi.
> 
> You are at or near this 15 psi limit that is imposed on this product.
> 
> Their original "The Best" had a Cornelius regulator with a 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauge. This regulator had problems blowing its low pressure gauge.
> 
> I wonder how this electronic regulator works at or near its 15 psi limit with some restrictive devices like those mentioned above?


I don't know what you are talking about?

I have owned the AP.C Regulator for almost two years and have not had a problem with it. In fact it is a boring piece of equipment. Meaning that it was very easy to set up and I haven't looked at it since then except to change gas tanks. 
OK maybe I am only 1 in the 88 gazillion people who had a problem with their regulator. I would really like to talk to these people.

I'm not sure what the point is of making up scare stories unless you have data to support it?

Also, Who would consider a porous ceramic disk diffuser as "the best?" I have one and you can have it for free just come and pick it up.


----------



## Left C

*Re: ??????*



ray-the-pilot said:


> I don't know what you are talking about?


Pressure.

My comments are directed about the pressure range of "The Best" regulators.

Both "The Best" regulators have 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauges. This is on the low side. This is why I added a picture of both. You can see their 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauges.

A good check valve and a diffuser might require more than 15 psi to get the CO2 to pass through. The brass Clippard check valves that many of us use have a cracking pressure of 0.5 psig. This is 7.4 psi. What is the pressure required to make a 'small pore' ceramic diffuser work? Is it 10 psi or 15 psi or more? A diffuser such as this and a check valve exceeds the pressure rating of your electronic regulator.

What do you do if you need 25 or 30 psi out of your regulator to make everything work?



ray-the-pilot said:


> I have owned the AP.C Regulator for almost two years and have not had a problem with it. In fact it is a boring piece of equipment. Meaning that it was very easy to set up and I haven't looked at it since then except to change gas tanks.
> OK maybe I am only 1 in the 88 gazillion people who had a problem with their regulator. I would really like to talk to these people.


I know that you like it.



ray-the-pilot said:


> I'm not sure what the point is of making up scare stories unless you have data to support it?


 I had the original "The Best" with its 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauge and it blew twice while I owned it. Then I sold it. I didn't read anything good about this regulator except for its Burkert solenoid. Its Clippard needle valve was terrible. The low pressure range Cornelius regulator was terrible too. It was limited with its low 0 to 15 psi range.

This electronic regulator also has a 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauge. If you used a check valve that had 1 psig or 15 psi crack pressure plus a diffuser that required a good amount of pressure (5 to 20 psi) to run. What would you do? You can only crank it up but so far. My regulators have low pressure gauges that exceed this. I can easily crank them up. They are in a range from 0 to 30 psi to 0 to 200 psi. Your VTS453D does too.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Also, Who would consider a porous ceramic disk diffuser as "the best?" I have one and you can have it for free just come and pick it up.


You are misreading something here. I'm not calling a diffuser by that name. It's the regulators. Their names are "The Best."

I mentioned ceramic diffusers because they can require more pressure to operate than some reactors and other CO2 devices. You combine this disc with a check valve, you can exceed the working pressure of your "The Best" regulator.

If you regulator had adjustments up to 30 psi or even 60 psi, it would give it more flexibility. As it is, it may be somewhat limited in its useful range.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

*Hey Left C*

I have a friend who claims that all car speedometers are a fraud and do not work!

To prove this to me he took me in my car out on a frozen Lake Superior and floored the accelerator. The speedometer read 110 mph and we were barely moving. I.e. my speedometer is a fraud!

Now I do not remember that AP.C said that they recommended using their regulator the way you indicate. In fact, you can make up any set of ridiculous conditions so that everything will fail even a car speedometer. The point is you are supposed to use your equipment in a way that the manufacturer recommends. Not in a way that will result in deliberate failure!

I am certain that if you purchased the AP.C "Best of best" system and used it the way they recommend, you would be a happy consumer just like me.

Also, you are a little confused about the AP.C regulator? It doesn't have a solenoid valve or a needle valve. It only has a pot that you use to regulate the flow rate. Also I do not have a Victor VTS453D, I have a Victor VTS 450D Inert Gas regulator. And I am really surprised that you had trouble with your AP.C regulator and they didn't help you? I have had problems with items from them and they replaced everything NQA.

Growing plant is an aquarium is really easy. There are many ways to do it. I think my way is the easiest but that is an opinion. Everyone has their own. Have fun finding your way!


----------



## ray-the-pilot

bosmahe1 said:


> Just some links I found describing the APC regulator:


It is funny but I didn't look through your links until tonight and after doing so I have to admit that this board is really, really backwards!
I haven't been on this board much because my research has been into marine aquaria lately. 
First off let me say that a classic sign of primitive behavior is ad hominem attacks I.e. LOL as an answer to what they think of me! 
What can I say? I keep growing plants and other people growing algae. OK algae are plants so I guess we are all doing the same thing!
I really feel badly that you didn't get a CO2 controller. It really is the fundamental requirement for a good plant set up.


----------



## Left C

*Re: Hey Left C*



ray-the-pilot said:


> I have a friend who claims that all car speedometers are a fraud and do not work!
> 
> To prove this to me he took me in my car out on a frozen Lake Superior and floored the accelerator. The speedometer read 110 mph and we were barely moving. I.e. my speedometer is a fraud!
> 
> Now I do not remember that AP.C said that they recommended using their regulator the way you indicate. In fact, you can make up any set of ridiculous conditions so that everything will fail even a car speedometer. The point is you are supposed to use your equipment in a way that the manufacturer recommends. Not in a way that will result in deliberate failure!
> 
> I am certain that if you purchased the AP.C "Best of best" system and used it the way they recommend, you would be a happy consumer just like me.


I'm not wanting to argue with you. I know that you like your electronic regulator and it works well for you. I said that a long time ago in one of the links that bosmahe1 posted.

I've also read of problems with them.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Also, you are a little confused about the AP.C regulator? It doesn't have a solenoid valve or a needle valve. It only has a pot that you use to regulate the flow rate.


This is crazy! Ray, why in the world do you think that I don't know that it has no solenoid or needle valve and everything is controlled electronically?? Dang!

I know that it's electronic. I've seen one's "guts" what little bit there are in it.

My responses were geared toward its 0 to 15 psi low pressure gauge and the 0 to 15 psi gauge on the older "The Best." Not their solenoids or needle valves. You never made any comments about your low pressure gauge. That is what I was asking about.

The "origional The Best" is the one that I owned which did have a solenoid and needle valve. It's the one on the right in the picture. I hated that regulator.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Also I do not have a Victor VTS453D, I have a Victor VTS 450D Inert Gas regulator. And I am really surprised that you had trouble with your AP.C regulator and they didn't help you? I have had problems with items from them and they replaced everything NQA.


I didn't say that they didn't help me. Where did you get this from?

It had a warranty. When it blew the gauge the second time, Randy wanted to charge me for it. I said no. It is still under warranty and you are still liable. He did mail me a replacement gauge, but it was a different model of gauge than the stock one. It was a crappy looking gauge.

You said that it was a little hard to read the model number on your Victor. The VTS453D is a model in the VTS450D line up. Basically they are the same. I couldn't remember which one that you told me.

If it is for inert gas, it should have a CGA-580 nut and nipple. Your part number is probably:
VTS450D-580
0781-3909 
5 - 125 psig, 0 to 200 psi gauge	
Air, Oxygen, Inert Gas 
5/8-18 ( F ) RH 
3000 psig



ray-the-pilot said:


> Growing plant is an aquarium is really easy. There are many ways to do it. I think my way is the easiest but that is an opinion. Everyone has their own. Have fun finding your way!


That's true.

Are you going to add one of AP.com's electronic kits to your VTS450D? http://www.aquariumplants.com/AquariumPlants_com_s_Electronic_Co2_Regulator_p/co2.htm

CO2-1/4-LCD Electronic Box only (with LCD counter)(for use with your own regulator)(1/4" fitting) $249.99

CO2-1/8-LCD Electronic Box only(with LCD counter)(for use with your own regulator)(1/8" fitting) $249.99

CO2-1/4 Electronic Box only(for use with your own regulator)(1/4" fitting) $149.99

CO2-1/8 Electronic Box only(for use with your own regulator)(1/8" fitting) $149.99


----------



## gotcheaprice

Bwahaha, what a fun read. 
Too bad my paintball co2 canister adapter pooped out on me. I need to buy a cylinder now, should've just done that in the first place. Looking forward to setting up my victor 2 stage!


----------



## Left C

gotcheaprice said:


> Bwahaha, what a fun read.
> Too bad my paintball co2 canister adapter pooped out on me. I need to buy a cylinder now, should've just done that in the first place. Looking forward to setting up my victor 2 stage!


Which model of Victor two stage did you get?

Just find a 20 lbs CO2 cylinder somewhere and forget about your paintball. You will like it because of the less hassle.

I made a list of some two stage regulators that were for sale about 24 hours ago. The list.


----------



## gotcheaprice

Left C said:


> Which model of Victor two stage did you get?
> 
> Just find a 20 lbs CO2 cylinder somewhere and forget about your paintball. You will like it because of the less hassle.
> 
> I made a list of some two stage regulators that were for sale about 24 hours ago. The list.


It's me from barr report asking you the flood of questions, haha, so I ended up with the 7-0155.
I had a paintball set up cause I was limited on space under the desk in my dorm, but I'm getting a stand soon so I'll probably get a 5 or 10 lb one. I think it'll last my 10 gal way longer than I need, haha.


----------



## Left C

gotcheaprice said:


> It's me from barr report asking you the flood of questions, haha, so I ended up with the 7-0155.
> I had a paintball set up cause I was limited on space under the desk in my dorm, but I'm getting a stand soon so I'll probably get a 5 or 10 lb one. I think it'll last my 10 gal way longer than I need, haha.


OK. I remember now. The 7-0155 is a good one.


----------



## gotcheaprice

Left C said:


> OK. I remember now. The 7-0155 is a good one.


That'll be on my main tank when I get it set up. I need to find out what's wrong with my paintball adapter/rex's co2 set up so I can put that one on my study desk for my 30c. Hopefully I can get the 5 lb one set up soon too for my main tank or else I'll be getting an algae break out. 

Btw, how many regulator set ups do you have? You seem very well versed in this and have tons of these regulators, haha.


----------



## Left C

I have a few setups.


----------



## bosmahe1

ray-the-pilot said:


> It is funny but I didn't look through your links until tonight and after doing so I have to admit that this board is really, really backwards!
> I haven't been on this board much because my research has been into marine aquaria lately.
> First off let me say that a classic sign of primitive behavior is ad hominem attacks I.e. LOL as an answer to what they think of me!
> What can I say? I keep growing plants and other people growing algae. OK algae are plants so I guess we are all doing the same thing!
> I really feel badly that you didn't get a CO2 controller. It really is the fundamental requirement for a good plant set up.


I only posted to this to get you fired up after, you made a somewhat derogatory remark about this forum earlier. It worked I guess and your response is hilarious. :biggrin:


----------



## barbarossa4122

Hi,

I know this is an old thread but, I would like to find out this: If , I decide to run it below say 500 psi high pressure until 0 how much longer will the tank last ? Oh, a 5lb tank at about 5 bps.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know this is an old thread but, I would like to find out this: If , I decide to run it below say 500 psi high pressure until 0 how much longer will the tank last ? Oh, a 5lb tank at about 5 bps.


I don't know for sure but it is pretty fast. My guess is less than 24 hours.

I usually don't know my tank is dead until my drop checker changes to blue or I notice that my regulator is clicking like crazy.

You can get a regulator with a bubble count totalizer. This will give you an estimate of how low your tank is. It is about a $100 add on at Aquariumplants.com.

I have a spare tank always full so I just change them when I run out.


----------



## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> I don't know for sure but it is pretty fast. My guess is less than 24 hours.
> 
> I usually don't know my tank is dead until my drop checker changes to blue or I notice that my regulator is clicking like crazy.
> 
> You can get a regulator with a bubble count totalizer. This will give you an estimate of how low your tank is. It is about a $100 add on at Aquariumplants.com.
> 
> I have a spare tank always full so I just change them when I run out.


Thanks Ray. I also have a 5lbs spare but, I had a leak and one of my tanks is at 550 since last night. I wonder how much longer it will last. Btw, I caused the leak myself.


----------



## ray-the-pilot

barbarossa4122 said:


> Thanks Ray. I also have a 5lbs spare but, I had a leak and one of my tanks is at 550 since last night. I wonder how much longer it will last. Btw, I caused the leak myself.


OK you are the man! When it gets to 500 psi record the time and tell us how long it takes to get to 0.

That is the kind of real experience data this board needs!


----------



## barbarossa4122

ray-the-pilot said:


> OK you are the man! When it gets to 500 psi record the time and tell us how long it takes to get to 0.
> 
> That is the kind of real experience data this board needs!


You bet.


----------



## barbarossa4122

Is at 500 right now.


----------



## Left C

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know this is an old thread but, I would like to find out this: If , I decide to run it below say 500 psi high pressure until 0 how much longer will the tank last ? Oh, a 5lb tank at about 5 bps.


Maybe a few days to a week or more with a two stage regulator. With a single stage regulator, many folks may consider swapping it out.


----------



## barbarossa4122

Left C said:


> Maybe a few days to a week or more with a two stage regulator. With a single stage regulator, many folks may consider swapping it out.


Hi Left C,

I'll change it tomorrow if I feel like going out Btw, is at 450 from 500 now after 3 days. Something is wrong with Barr's site this evening. I think is down. Sent you a pm there.


----------



## Left C

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi Left C,
> 
> I'll change it tomorrow if I feel like going out BTW, it is at 450 from 500 now after 3 days. Something is wrong with Barr's site this evening. I think is down. Sent you a pm there.


When I had pH controllers and regulator with crappy needle valves, I ran the CO2 tanks until it was empty. When I went to two stage regulators and good needle valves with timers, I also ran the tanks until they were empty. I never had a chance to try emptying one with a crappy needle valve and a timer to see what would happen. So, I've never seen EOTD. But, I read articles about it going back to the early 90's.

Barr's site is still down. I don't know what is wrong with it. Maybe Greg is doing some maintenance on it.

I can see your message in my email, but I can't respond to it there or at Barr's site. I really like that regulator that I sent you. It was hard to part with, but I have about 12 regulators left. I sure don't need all of them.

Matt F. has a DIY build for a SGT500. It is a regulator like yours in that it has its output at 9 o'clock vs most regulators that have their output at around 7 o'clock or 6 o'clock. I have a picture of how Epitaph built his below. Matt's uses SS parts and Epitaph used used mostly brass parts. There is another way to built it where you don't use elbows and go straight out with the parts. This method uses less fittings. herns has some pictures of his Concoa built this way.

Matt is getting away from JBJ bubble counters and using one that isn't mounted on the regulator, but mounted on the stand or placed on the floor. Personally I like this way better too. Some pictures if Swagelok's fittings are below. There is more information to this in my regulator thread at Barr's site. It is near the end of it. Some more info is in the beginning part of it too.

SGT500 build by Epitaph









Swagelok's tubing adapters


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## barbarossa4122

Thanks a lot Left C. I will install the new reg today and report back. I think I am going to use the nv 55s I have for now. I'll pm you my e-mail.
Is that your bike in your avatar ?


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## barbarossa4122

Tom site is back.


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## barbarossa4122

Hey Left C,

REG in on and it works perfect at 28psi. This means that all the problems I had was b/c of the used Victor 253a. What a difference with a new 0-60 psi reg. The needle valve and the diffuser work as they should.


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