# [Wet Thumb Forum]-brighter light



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

My ten gallon tanks are each lit with DIY fixtures that contain 2x15 watt fluorescent lights. Each fixture has a single ballast made to run 2x15 watt lamps without starters. Can I get more light out of those tubes and fixtures if I replace the ballasts with ballasts built to run 2x30 watt bulbs?


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

My ten gallon tanks are each lit with DIY fixtures that contain 2x15 watt fluorescent lights. Each fixture has a single ballast made to run 2x15 watt lamps without starters. Can I get more light out of those tubes and fixtures if I replace the ballasts with ballasts built to run 2x30 watt bulbs?


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I believe if you replace the ballasts with larger more powerfull units, that are too large, they may not power the small bulbs at all. 

Baring that, I think the ballast designed for 30W should work, however I believe this would be considered a mode of over-driving the bulbs. Not a TRUE ODNO setup, but more then NO.

In my case I used a 15W bulb in a ballast designed for 2x40W and MAN did that bulb get hot. So hot you couldn't touch it. I didn't use both endcaps wired into one for OD, just left one set endcaps empty....


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm using an electronic ballast on my 20 gallon, 
I have the bulbs hooked up in series so they are acting like 1 40 watts bulb, 
I then wired it so the ballast thinks it's 2 40 watts bulbs, I'm guessing I'm getting about 60-70 watts out of the 2 20 watts bulbs.

There are many combination you could do for you 2 15 watt bulbs with an electronic ballast.

I bought one (4f32t8)that can drive 4 32 watt bulbs but on only have half the leads hooked up... all I have to do is hook up the extra wires if I ever want a crazy amount of light.

Sorry for all the rambling, but my point is buy the (4f32t8) electronic ballast (almost same price) and you will never have to replace if for another bigger one!

*My Digital Gallery*

[This message was edited by ekim on Sun October 26 2003 at 07:02 PM.]


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

here is a quote from "GulfCoastAquarian" a mod at plantedtank.net

"Running two feed wires into one 18" bulb will definitely make it a little brighter, but in my experience, 18" bulbs perform a lot better in ODNO config when they are in series (effectively making one 36" bulb). I'd estimate power output of two 18" bulbs in series, being overdriven 2x, to be about 50 watts - which should provide some pretty intense lighting if you can fit the extra tube over your tank.

If not, then I'd buy the 4F32T8 ballast and run three inputs into the bulb. You won't actually see a tripling in output (just as you won't see a doubling with two wires - more like 1 1/2 times). With 3x ODNO"

*My Digital Gallery*


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

here is a quick pic of how to wire it up @ 2ODNO 
2 bulbs in series...










*My Digital Gallery*


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## walpurgis999 (Feb 6, 2003)

From what I hear if you use a ballast designed for 2 10w bulbs and 2XODNO them, you will get 1.5 times the output of the normal bulb. However, it you set the lights up to run on an electronic ballast that is made for 30w bulbs, the ballast will load sense and will run the bulbs at 10w and not 30w.

If Gollum were into aquariums, he would say, "We hates them algae--tricksy' they are. Pokes their eyeses' out we wills".


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Check my understanding here please To overdrive 2X15 watt bulbs I would short all the leads at one end of the tubes. The other end of the tubes would be wired as if they were opposite ends of a single tube. I would use a tar ballast (not electronic per walpurgis999) for 2X30 watt lamps and combine the leads from the ballast to run one tube instead of two.

Is that about right?

I'm not sure in the diagram above what wire I would eliminate. It would probably help if I actually had a ballast in hand.


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Steve Hampton (Feb 13, 2004)

Personally, I'd simply purchase a Fulham Workhorse 5 ballast and replace the current ballast. You would then run two red leads to each bulb thereby overdriving about 2X. Note that you must use the Workhorse 5, the Workhorse 3 isn't capable of overdriving 2 15W bulbs. The Fulham Workhorse 5 can run a large variety of bulbs from Biax PC's, T5, T8, T10, T12, and HO's.

Here's the wiring diagram for this type of overdriving linear NO fluorescents.

Fulham Ballast Wiring Diagram for Overdriving 2X


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

This weekend I picked up another ballast for 2X15 watt lamps and tried the simplest solution. I piggy backed the ballast on the wiring for the existing ballast. That didn't work at all. There wasn't even a flicker. Is that usual?

Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Roger, are these electronic ballasts? I've never had much luck overdriving with magnetic ballasts, usually just end up with a stinky smoke cloud









You could try to power a single bulb with the two feeds or place the two bulbs in series as Ekim suggests. I did this on my old tank and it worked very well. If I'm not mistaken, it's been a while, the wiring looked something like this:










I think what Ekim is saying is that you can eliminate one of the feeds (the red wire) to get a lower power factor.

I'd wait for someone who has done this a little more recently to confirm if I remember the wiring correctly, there are however many other ways of overdriving using multiple ballasts and such, but I think you are somewhat limited to what you can do with a magnetic.

Hope that helps, keep us updated
Giancarlo Podio


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## Ron Nelson (Apr 2, 2003)

Giancarlo your diagrams are right if you are using electronic ballasts. From what I have read the second diagram seems to perform a little better for some reason. I have no clue about magnetic or multiple ballasts though. And if you wanted to do a slightly lower power factor you could wire it like the second diagram but leave one of the red or blue leads disconnected and wire nutted off so you don't zap yourself on it...

Ron


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Thanks Ron, the first diagram is how the bulbs were originally wired in their normal state. Yes the ballasts were electronic. How would you go about wiring a magnetic ballast to do a similar task?

Giancarlo Podio


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

The ballasts are magnetic, but the normal wiring diagram is identical to the first diagram above.

When using the second diagram, you are not using the same ballast, correct? In my case the original ballast (top diagram) would be for 2X15 watt lamps. Wouldn't the overdriven setup (bottom diagram) use a ballast for 2x30 watt lamps?


Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Well I started out with electronic ballasts even with the normal configuration. I'm not sure what it is about magnetic ballasts but I've always been told that it's not as easy to overdrive with them. I know I would give it a try regardless but you may be without any light tomoroow at all







, however do it in the garage or somewhere ventilated in case the ballast starts to smoke.

What about if you try to run a single bulb with each ballast? Just like the second diagram only with a single bulb. That might work....

Giancarlo Podio


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> What about if you try to run a single bulb with each ballast? Just like the second diagram only with a single bulb. That might work....


That is what I try next. If it occured to me Saturday then I would have tried it then because the wiring is pretty simple. The idea and the time to do it never seem to materialize together.

Roger Miller

"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

So I tried wiring a single bulb as in the second diagram. I didn't get very far. The AC voltage between the two red leads or between the two blue leads is only a few volts. The AC voltage between either red lead and either blue lead is 170 volts. I didn't try connecting them.

I does make me wonder, though... What would happen if I connected one blue lead and one red lead to each tube? Flying glass? Has anyone done that? Intentionally?

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

There's one way to find out....









What is the voltage between the yellow wires and the red or blue wires?

Giancarlo Podio


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> What is the voltage between the yellow wires and the red or blue wires?


Lights on, 50-60 volts.

Late fall and early winter are usually the best times for me to do DIY projects. Probably I should just get the electronic ballasts and rewire the lights when time is available.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Roger, if the ballast can handle it I wouldn't be surprised if connecting the red and blue to either end gives you a lot of light, just not sure I feel safe suggesting such a thing







I guess if you're going to be getting an electronic ballast and don't care if the current ballast bites the dust....

Let me know how it goes
Giancarlo Podio


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## Chris J (Oct 7, 2003)

I would put a mirror behind the lights.

-----------------------------
"If a picture is worth a thousand words, then can I use a camera for my essay?"


"I AM the #1 Fan of AVRIL LAVIGNE!!!!"
-Chris J.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

You all inspired me to try this. I had an old 40 watt shop light in the attic that i wasnot using. It has a magnetic ballast with one set of red leads and one set of blue leads. I wired up two 15 watt bulbs in series and it works great. My 10 gallon now has 3 watts per gallon on it. It wasable to fit both bulbs into my original prefecto light hood. I used the body of the old shop light (cut to fit)as a reflector and mounted the ballast remotelly behind the tank. I reused the power cord and the switch in the hood. The only thing I had to buy was 3- 3ft lengths of 2 wire lamp cord All running out of the existing hole from the power cord. One lenght runs from the Blue leads in the hood to the blue lead on the Ballast. One lenght runs from the red leads in the hood to the red leads on the ballast. The third length runs from the switch to the white wire on the power cord coming from the ballast. All the connections a wire nutted (the orange size) and then electrical taped after every thing was tested. It was a tight fit getting everything in the old hood but with patience and carefull fitting of all the parts, it fit great. And it does not very professional. In fact, it doesn't really look any different than it did. The entire project cost me $3 for the wire and I had everything else on hand. If you bought all the extra stuff new here is hat I estimate it wiold cost:
-Shop light 40 watt. $9
-2 wire lamp wire 20' $3
-Extra bulb $5 to $25 depending

Good luck to you you all

Dennis Dietz


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

So you used the magnetic ballast and combined the two power leads (red & blue) together? That's not supposed to work!







Perhaps todays magnetic ballasts are more electronic than we think









Oh wait.... this was a single tube ballast correct? So the red and blue wires were actually 'negative' and 'positive' so to speak... One is attached to one side of the bulb and the other to the other end of the bulb in series, is this correct? That should work with a magnetic ballast I would think.

How much light are you getting out of the 15W tubes compared to their normal operation? 3WPG is what you would have had if the 2x15W tubes were running on their normal ballasts, I'm guessing you have more than that now.

Roger, how is the project coming along? I'm doing the same to a twin T12 fixture in preparation for a larger tank. Converting it to overdriven T8s.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Barfly (Nov 2, 2003)

Sorry, but maybe this is a little off the topic here. But i'm thinking of looking for bulbs to do a diy light too.

so, I'd like to know, how do you know if the spectrum is correct? the lumens and kelvins and watts don't tell you that right? Will it do just to be 'white'? because that would mean it has all available colours on the spectrum yes?

May the pearls be with your Riccias'.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Unfortunately not all manufacturers provide spectral data, I usually go by what others are claiming to have success with or bulbs that I do know the spectral analysis of, usually however I resort to the more expensive tubes made for aquaria, mostly due to having available store credit. Super daylight bulbs usually work well but again it's hard to know what differences there are in the spectrum unless stated. Some bulbs say "broad spectrum" which is good. In general you are looking for a bulb with a constant spectrum without too many extreme peaks or drops in any wavelength. The sun has a very "flat" specrum providing similar intensity throughout the entire chart.

Here are some links to people who have done some spectral analisys or have discussed it in detail, perhaps some of the bulbs you are considering are in this list:

http://aqua.passion.online.fr/pages/douce/articles/eclairage.html

http://www.naturacquario.net/lux/fluorescenti.htm

http://www.aqua-web.org/users/saurama/index.htm

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/light-spectrum.html

http://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/archive/26/2003/02/4/2813

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## Barfly (Nov 2, 2003)

Thanks Giancarlo Podio.

In addition, i found this graph showing light spectrum suitable for plant growth.
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/guide3.shtml

is a bulb of kelvins below 5000 a more reddish light and 10000k more blue?

May the pearls be with your Riccias'.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Yep, that's correct. The only consideration you need to keep in mind is that Kelvin gives little clue to the bulb's real spectrum. A bulb with a lot of blue in it's spectrum for example may have a very strong peak in a narrow section of red which would bring it's Kelvin rating down considerably, even though the bulb puts out very little light in any of the remaining wavelengths in the red area. Anotherwords, don't judge a bulb's spectrum by it's Kelvin.

And may the pearls be with your riccia too









Giancarlo Podio


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

In response to giancarlo's question, yes they are in series and you a correct about the red and blue being positive and neqative. I believe the blue is positive but since florescent tubes dont have polarity that really does not matter much. 

This setup is slightly overdriven although I suck at math so I dont know by how much. The bulb that I was using originally is brighter but I dont know how much. Does it make sense that if the ballast is 40 watts then that is what the bulbs output is?

Dennis Dietz


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

It's not quite that easy, you'd really need some kind of testing equipment to measure the difference in light output, some good video cameras have this feature. Although the ballast can put out 40W of power, it's not to say that the tubes are using it all. Plus, Watts used and light emitted are two different things, a more efficient bulb will put out more light per watt. You could measure the current difference to know the Watt difference but you'd still have to take into consideration the efficiency and energy lost to heat rather than light, I'm sure the bulbs now run hotter so their efficiency has decreased. I do it the poor man's way, I take a photo of the tank with the standard light, then take another photo with the overdriven light using exactly the same exposure time and settings, this usually gives me an acceptable method of comparing multiple configurations.

Giancarlo Podio


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Giancarlo,

Yeah,that makes sense. The way I look at it, I know I have approximatly twice the light than I had. I could really care less to know exactly what it is. The way I figure it, anthing is better than what I had.
On a seperate but similar note, if you over drive no bulbs as being discussed in this topic, then would not they get hotter and be less efficient than if they were run at the correct output?

Dennis Dietz


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Yes, cooling them will run them more efficiently and extend their life, they don't quite get as hot as CFs however so it can't be that bad.

Giancarlo Podio


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

True. I here that the T5's are actually CF's. My girlfriends new hood for her 5.5 gal can with a T5 in it. It is 8 watts and I swear its brighter than the 15 watt the came with my hood. They are identical bulds. Both eclipses.

BTW. any good florescent bulb recomendations. I dont think what I have in my current tank are very good and I will be setting up a new tank soon, probably 30 gal, and could use some bulb recomendations.

Dennis


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## Barfly (Nov 2, 2003)

Found my bulb. will be using fluorescent. t8. meaning the 1" diameter bulb i think. costs 15 dollars a piece though. for 3 feet.

so, is using an electronic ballast meant to power two 40 watt bulb on a 20 watt bulb a bit of an overkill?
















would that be 2x odno? what'd be a better combination for a 20 watt fluorescent bulb?

May the pearls be with your Riccias'.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

It depends on how many leads you connect to the bulb. Connecting just one feed to the bulb will run it at 2x, connecting both feeds (2x40W) will run it at 4x. This is obviously in theory without taking loss of efficiency and heat into consideration.

Following this thread and the opportunity to upgrade my tank to a bigger one I have started to re-wire my old unused twin T12 fixture. I plan on doing a little experimenting with different wiring configurations using a high power 4x32W T8 ballast. My guess is that combining all 4 feeds into one and wiring the bulbs in series will probably give me the best result. Will wait and see.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Barfly (Nov 2, 2003)

Okay. do let us know what happens. Maybe a couple pics to illustrate the before and after? =P

i see, so it's total used output of ballast divided by wattage of bulb. How can you check the overall power after you set it up?

May the pearls be with your Riccias'.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Well I can measure the current and voltage going throught he bulbs, that would tell me the watts consumed but it's not going to be very accurate as far as knowing how much light is being emitted. A lot more energy will be lost to heat than with normal use, the ballast efficiency factor may also drop as the impedence is no longer the same as what the ballast was made to handle. I think the only way to really know the amount of light emitted is using a light meter, unfortunately I no longer have one that works. I plan on using a camera set at a fast shutter speed and take identical shots of the various configurations, hopefully the difference will be evident to the eye, that's really all I'm looking for at this stage. I may be able to borrow a meter, if so I'll be able to provide some lumen comparisons.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Barfly (Nov 2, 2003)

That'd be great!









May the pearls be with your Riccias'.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

So onto other ODNO issues...

I was never able to get my 2x15 watt bulbs overdriven by magnetic ballasts. Not that it can't be done, but I didn't manage it.

I have been having trouble with the 4x40watt lamps over my 55. I was using the Philips version of the C50 and magnetic ballasts. I decided to go with something different. I picked up 4 Philips F32T8ADV850 bulbs (AKA Advantage 850). These are high efficiency lamps with 5000K and a CRI in the mid 80's. I also picked up two electronic ballasts. The ballasts have a fairly low ballast factor (88) when driving F32T8 lamps. I got two ballasts so that if the light was insufficient then I could overdrive the bulbs.

Even without overdriving the bulbs the light is far brighter than I'm used to, so I'm not going to be overdriving them in the near future. I did rig things up so that I overdrove two lamps on one ballast just to see how bright it was. The two overdriven lights by themselves were quite a bit brighter than all 4 lamps in my old light setup.

So now I have a number of possibilities. One is to get 4 Philips TL950's in place of the 850s. The 950s are very inefficient bulbs, but I could overdrive those to get the intensity. Has anyone tried that?

My other option with the spare electronic ballast is to run F17T8s on my 20 gallon tank. 2x17watts would probably be plenty. 4x17 watts and the fish would be looking for sunglasses. Comments? I've not heard much about F17T8 lamps.

I also now have the option of using one of the old 2x40W ballasts to run my 15 watt setups. Is I recall, I would wire the two 15 watt bulbs in series, then wire each pair as a singe 40 watt bulb. Is that right? If so then I would be able to run the lights for both of my 10 gallon tanks with a single ballast.

I might be able to use the remaining old 2x40 watt ballast to replace the ballasts and starters for the 2x30 watt trigger start setup on my 38 gallon tank. I don't know if that would be a problem. The ballast is rated to run 2x36inch 25watt lamps with a 90+ ballast factor. Any idea if this will work for 36 inch 30 watt lamps?

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I must have missed this post...

Isn't it amazing the difference between magnetic T12 and electronic T8? (bulb and ballast combo)

As far as driving the F17T8 bulbs off the F32T8 ballast, all you need to do is place 2 bulbs in series and consider them a single F32T8. Then either drive them at 1x using a single feed or 2x, 3x or 4x (if it's a 4 bulb ballast).

Not sure on the magnetic ballasts. I think your best bet of succeeding is to do exactly what you are suggesting, that is drive a smaller bulb with a higher powered ballast. Combining the circuit outputs of a magnet ballast is probably not going to work.

Is there a big difference in efficiency between the 850s and 950s? I've seen the spectral analysis of the 950s which looks very good but know little about the 850s. But I guess if the intensity is not what you are looking for you can always overdrive them. 2x should give you a nice amount of light without exagerating things. Being a low powered ballast (bf88) you're probably looking at a little under 2x. 

Glad it's working out for you
Giancarlo Podio


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Found a nice site with many ballast types including wiring diagrams. There are some interesting wiring alternatives here.

http://www.hmlighting.com/ballasts.htm

Take a look at the Workhorse 7 for example.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Giancarlo,

I wired my old 2x40 watt ballast into my 2x20 watt hood. It works fine, but it doesn't overdrive the lamps. The light increased about as much as you would expect from a higher ballast factor.

Converting that 2x20 watt hood to 2X17 watt lamps and overdriving those (or not) is a reasonable alternative. I have to find 17 watt lamps that are suitable for aquariums.

I haven't seen the TL950 in person, but I've read some reviews. I understand that the light is very high quality, but as with most very high CRI bulbs, the efficiency is very poor. The ADV850 is considered to be high-efficiency bulb. The TL950 is a low efficiency bulb. If I were to upgrade from the ADV850 to the TL950 I would get 10+ point increase in CRI, but more than a 50% loss in PAR. Ivo Busko's comparison article (which Robert has in the Library at AB) gives a very good look at both tubes.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Finally got around to doing the comparison. I wasn't able to borrow a light meter but I can clearly see the difference using the camera on fast shutter speed.

Here's the comparison if anyone is still interested:
http://www.gpodio.com/overdrive_twin_strip.htm

Giancarlo Podio


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Great article Giancarlo!

I'm not sure if it's necessary but I have jumped the yellow leads from one side of the clip to the other. My clips are not connected inside! 
Here is what I would have done,









Regards,
Mike Morrissey

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*My Digital Gallery*


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I'll give that a try and let you know. 

Thanks
Giancarlo Podio


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Mike, I tried it, didn't make any difference in brightness but it makes more sense this way. By divinding the load between both terminals it should increse the life of the endcap and possibly the bulb itself unless they are connected internally in the bulb. It would be even more important if the bulbs were being run at a higher power factor.

BTW, a quick OT.... got a chance to see a nice T5 retrofit for a reef yesterday using an icecap ballast and thin ahsupply-like reflectors for T5s. WOW! They will certainly give folded CFs a run for their money once prices come down a little more.

Regards
Giancarlo Podio


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