# Limnophila aromatica discussion



## Cavan Allen

Salt said:


> *Rotala macrandra* - Plain _r. macrandra_, which is very rare in the USA; it's not too unusual to be able to find _variegated_ and _narrow leaf_ varieties.
> *Pogostemon stellata* - Another popular but near impossible to find plant in the USA.
> *Limnophila hippuroides* - Oriental Aquarium's _limnophila aromatica_ is a different species than what most people think of as _l. aromatica_. *L. hippuroides* is the plant from the Oriental Aquarium catalog that most people think of as _l. aromatica_, and is most likely the plant pictured here.


Not so. The OA catalogue is riddled with inaccuracies and that's one of them.

http://www.lucidcentral.org/keys/APPW/html/limnophila.html

As far as I know, _L. hippuroides_ is a synonym of aromatica (aromatica being described 53 years earlier). The plant featured in the Plant Finder is the same one Tropica sells as aromatica.

Back to your scheduled programming....


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## Salt

Just to expand on *Limnophila hippuroides*...

This is the plant pictured on APC's plantfinder of "_limnophila aromatica_:"









This is _limnophila aromatica_ from the latest Oriental Aquarium catalog:
(The description is not cut off; there is none)









And this is _limnophila hippuroides_ also as seen in the latest Oriental Aquarium catalog:









This thread is about an order Robert is placing with Oriental Aquarium. He will need to specify _limnophila hippuroides_ to get the correct plant.

Oriental Aquarium specifies _l. aromatica_ as coming from tropical Asia, and _l. hippuroides_ as coming from tropical North America.


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## Cavan Allen

A few things....

There are *ZERO* _Limnophila_ species native to the United States. Zero.

No _Gratiola_ species have leaves in whorls.

The top photo is of an emersed plant. The bottom one is of a submersed one.
Given time to adapt, the bottom plant will grow emersed exactly like the one pictured above. I've grown it outside in the summer for a few years.


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## Cavan Allen

The plant featured in the bottom photo converted to emersed growth:


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## Salt

Cavan Allen said:


> The top photo is of an emersed plant. The bottom one is of a submersed one. Given time to adapt, the bottom plant will grow emersed exactly like the one pictured above. I've grown it outside in the summer for a few years.


I thought I would give this older thread a bump to post some results that counter what Cavan Allen has posted above: namely, that the two species pictured in the Oriental Aquarium catalog for _Limnophila aromatica_ and _Limnophila hippuroides_ are the same plant, but the image shown for _Limnophila aromatica_ is showing the out-of-water growth form.

I was able to get some Oriental Aquarium _Limnophila aromatica_. It looked *exactly* like it does in their catalog when I received it:










I believe Cavan is correct that this is definitely an out-of-water growth form. But I believe that he is incorrect that it is the same plant that Oriental Aquarium sells as _Limnophila hippuroides_.

It was very difficult to get it to adapt and change to submersed growth, mainly because it takes over a week to get the plants from Singapore, and by the time I get it (in the USA), the stems have too much cellular damage to recover, let alone change their growth form to submersed.

However, I finally got ONE stem to adapt and thrive. Here is what the Oriental Aquarium _Limnophila aromatica_ grows into after changing to submersed growth form:










I believe that this is definitely a different plant than what Oriental Aquarium is selling as _Limnophila hippuroides_. I also believe that the images pictured on the APC Plant Finder are of the plant that Oriental Aquarium is selling as _Limnophila hippuroides_.


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## THHNguyen

I have that same plant in my tank. You can buy the emersed form at most Vietnamese grocery stores.


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## Cavan Allen

Once again, I present the following link:

limnophila



> I also believe that the images pictured on the APC Plant Finder are of the plant that Oriental Aquarium is selling as Limnophila hippuroides.


The link above and the word of Claus Christensen from Tropica are more than good enough for me that the plant featured in the Plant Finder is _L. aromatica_.



> I believe that this is definitely a different plant than what Oriental Aquarium is selling as Limnophila hippuroides.


A "different plant", perhaps, but in all likelihood not a different species.

I have yet to see anything persuasively suggesting that_ L. aromaticoides_ and the plant pictured at bottom are anything other than types of _L. aromatica_. Therefore, it's my belief that the Plant Finder entry should remain as is. However, it may eventually include the different types as different entries.


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## Salt

I didn't say anything about naming conventions or classifications, only that the two previously mentioned plants Oriental Aquarium distributes are not the same plant (which you had previously suggested that they were).

They may be different species of Limnophila or they may be species variations of _Limnophila aromatica_, but I still personally believe that they are different plants.


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## Cavan Allen

> I didn't say anything about naming conventions or classifications, only that the two previously mentioned plants Oriental Aquarium distributes are not the same plant (which you had previously suggested that they were).


Fair enough. But I think we're confusing each other a bit here.

To summarize:

OA sells two different plants that, while distinct and readily identifiable, are most likely two variations of _Limnophila aromatica_. How's that?


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## Salt

Sounds about right!


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## AaronT

If anyone wants to try to find a local source for a different aromatica variety ask for Rau Om at a Vietnamese market.


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## julido

this is my limnophila aromatica hippuroides!

Ist one of my favorite!!!


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## HeyPK

Cavan,

I tried a few things to see if I could get the link in your post #4 to work. What I tried got some links in old posts of mine to show, but no luck this time. Is this the picture you wanted to show?


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## Crispino Ramos

I have this plant that I bought from Adam Shappard - he labeled it as Limnophila sp 'Wavy'. It grows just like it in or out of the water column.


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## ashappard

and I got it from TexGal 
I haven't flowered it successfully yet (lost patience), and I'm currently not keeping it.


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## TheKillHaa

me too, and has grow as weed!!! :biggrin:


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## Crispino Ramos

*Limnophila aromatica 'Broad'*

*I think this picture is that of Limnophila aromatica sp 'Broad'.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ils.php?id=323&category=genus&spec=Limnophila*


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## Tex Gal

I got the Limno wavy from Inspire91. I still have it. It's form in or out of the water looks the same to me also. 
@Ashappard - if you want some again just let me know.


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## miremonster

I've got the new, 3rd edition (2010) of "Aquarienpflanzen" from Christel Kasselmann, with 450 species. Hope an English version is planned.
The aromatica-type Limnophilas cultivated in tanks are now distinguished by her as follows:

1) L. aromatica
Very variable, also in colour. Suitability for tanks different depending on origin, plants from Sri Lanka and Sulawesi are well-suited. Leaves opposite or in whorls of 3 leaves. Flowers pink to purple. 
Widespread in SE Asia.

2) L. aromaticoides
Submerged leaves light green, no red tinges, in whorls of 3-6 leaves.
Flowers (mostly?) white. Fruit capsules globular. Kasselmann notes ambiguous informations in the original description (Yang & Yen 1997) of the species. 
Taiwan, Japan?

3) L. hippur*id*oides (not hippuroides!) 
Since about 1998 in the hobby. Submerged leaves always reddish to intensively dark red, in whorls of 6-8(-14?) leaves. Flowers intensively blue-violet. Fruit capsules complanate-globular.
Malaian peninsula (Malakka).

C. Kasselmann has determined the Limnophila "Mini" as L. aromatica, not L. repens. As she writes, her flowering L. "Mini" showed all characteristics of L. aromatica (e.g. leaves opposite to 3-whorled and calyx glabrous to glandular, compared to opposite leaves and hairy calyx in L. repens). L. punctata is synonym of L. aromtica. She also excludes L. chinensis (pedicel haired, calyx much longer) and L. glandulifera (leaves opposite).

-Heiko


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Heiko,

Thank you for the excellent explanation and clarification!


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## miremonster

Hi Seattle_Aquarist,
thank You! However, the opinions may be different if these taxa can be distinguished as species or only as forms of L. aromatica because of overlapping variation in the natural populations. E.g. in the Flora of China they treat L. aromaticoides as synonym of L. aromatica.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Heiko,

Sometimes I think about how much we have we have learned about the flora and fauna of our planet; then I realize there is still so much more!


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## Cavan Allen

Hi Heiko,

Yes, I'm surprised that they are treated as different species here. I have not yet found a specialist in the genus, but then if I did, his or her opinion might be different than another's. Settling these things can be quite difficult! I thought, though, that at least _L. aromatocoides_ was universally considered a synonym of _L. aromatica_. Is it not simply a very widespread species with many variations?

What we have as _L. repens_ does have a hairy calyx (though slight). In the Plant Finder entry, this can be seen if you look closely. I found a specimen in the _L. repens_ file that looks almost identical, but then again, sometimes specimens are misidentified, so you never know. I'd like to point out too, that all species discussed will grow opposite leaves emersed, although some may still grow them in whorls when converting from submersed to emersed. All this might be explained by differences in culture?

An illustration of both species is here (note that less vigorous, etc plants may grow simpler inflorescences):
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3499&flora_id=2


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## miremonster

Hi Cavan,

these Limno's seem to me a quite puzzling stuff... till now I didn't really examine them, so I know only a little of them, mainly from pics and descriptions. Hopefully someday a new revision of the whole genus Limnophila will make clear the variation and limits of the species.

Haired vs. glabrous to glandular calyx: Probably she means non-glandular hairs? How about the calyx hairs of Your L. "Mini" specimen - glandular or not?

If the key in the efloras.org Flora of China: http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=118595 
is applicable for the aquarium Limnophilas, another character might rule out L. aromatica as well as L. repens for the "mini":

L. aromatica: pedicels 5-20 mm long 
L. chinensis: p. 3-5 mm
L. repens: p. 0.5-3 mm
The pedicels of her L. "mini" are 3-4 mm long.

Another possibility, apart from plasticity depending on culture conditions: her and Your L. "mini" probably not the same plant? In her book are photos of a submerged group and an emersed flowering stem. Both with leaves in whorls of 3. Submerged leaves reddish but with distinctive broad lime green stripe on the middle vein, different from the plantfinder photo (however, I've seen pics of "Mini" from U.S. hobbyists looking like Christel's plants). Calyx hairs not visible in the photo.

The story is still going on


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## Cavan Allen

Hi Heiko,

It is possible they are not the same plant.

I don't remember if the hairs are glandular or not. If I can find my notes, they may be in there. I do remember, though, that the measurements were within the accepted range of _L. repens_, though on the lower end. Things can be a bit tricky because most descriptions are written based on dried material. From my experience, cultured plants often measure near the bottom of any given range. Calyx hairs are visible on the left side of the plant in the photo (also looks like the fruit shape is right).

I agree that a new revision, hopefully including molecular work, would be most welcome (same for _Hygrophila_).


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## miremonster

Hi Cavan,


> Calyx hairs are visible on the left side of the plant in the photo (also looks like the fruit shape is right).


Yes, I see them in the plantfinder photo; I meant the photo in Christel's book 

If there are indeed 2 different "Mini"s, it would be interesting to cultivate them together.


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## miremonster

Remarkably in the Limnophila key in Flora of China (efloras.org): 
It begins with the decision

“Plants with both submerged and aerial leaves.” (leads to the species with divided submerged leaves)
or
“Plants with aerial leaves only.” (L. aromatica, chinensis, repens and others).

That could mean, the plants of the 2nd group are normally not encountered growing submerged in their natural habitats. Or if there are submerged leaves, they are not distinguishable from the aerial ones.

As Cavan writes, submerged stems may have more leaves per whorl than emersed ones. 
In the Flora of China they count L. aromaticoides among L. aromatica. This species is described in the flora having 2-3 leaves per node.
L. aromaticoides according to C. Kasselmann (2010): I don’t know if the 3-6 leaves per node only refer to submerged stems or also to emersed ones (I don’t have the original species description). Anyway, the number of leaves per whorl of submerged aquarium specimens of the Limnophilas with undivided leaves is surely a character not considered in non-aquaristic botanical literature.


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## Cavan Allen

Unless there is a pronounced difference between the emersed and submersed leaves, there is more often than not no mention of submersed growth at all. Only the strongly aquatic species are given that attention, it seems. Why that is I don't know.

I have seen specimens of emersed, flowering _L. aromatica_ with three leaves per node. In general, it is a more substantial plant than the 'mini'.

Species can be told apart by examining a cross section of the stem and this is described by Cowie, et all.


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## miremonster

Hi Cavan,
first I have to correct my infos. L. aromaticoides in Kasselmann (2010): not 3-6 leaves, but emersed 2-3, submerged 3-*8* leaves per node. Could You please edit my posts?



> I have seen specimens of emersed, flowering L. aromatica with three leaves per node. In general, it is a more substantial plant than the 'mini'.


Also the "rice paddy herb" imported from Thailand and sold in "Asia shops" has mostly 3 leaves / node. I assume it's L. aromatica, but I didn't examine the flowers.



> Species can be told apart by examining a cross section of the stem and this is described by Cowie, et all.


Interesting!


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