# Distored leaves on Nesea (picture!)



## defdac (May 10, 2004)

My Nesea sp red looks like this:









The tank is 310 litres with 0.7 watts/litre without reflectors. Aged gravel substrate since several years.

50-100% wc every week. CO2 from tube inserted in the canister filter intake. Apx 2-3 bubbles/sec that get's totally dissolved. Adjusted so that the plants pearl within a couple of hours and fishes seems ok.

I just recently (just a couple of days ago) have bought CaCl2 so I've raised my GH from 3.5 to 8 with it. To early to say anything about that.

Nutrient dosage every other day:

0.4 tsp KNO3 (low because I want reds)
2.75 ppm worth of PO4 (high because I like it, 2 tsp KH2PO4 in 200 mls of water, 25 ml dose)
0.1-0.2 ppm with CSM+B equivalent ("NutriSI" almost identical to CSM+B)
0.2 tsp MgSO4
0.2 tsp K2SO4

(I often dose macros and mikros alternating every other day).

So what's up with my Nesea? Any suggestions?


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

That's just the way this plant is --incredibly touchy and demanding. 

In my experience, consistency is the key with this species. When did you decide to add the calcium chloride? Before or after the plant began to stunt? The sudden shift in water parameters might have adversely effected it.

All your dosing levels seem fine (how much does 0.4tsp add to your size tank in ppm?).

In my experience, once this plant stunts, it takes a really long time to recover and put out healthy new growth (weeks!).

Carlos


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## Pat Bowerman (Mar 18, 2004)

*Could you have bottomed out on nitrates?*

That'd be my best guess. I plugged your KNO3 dose into the fertilator and came up 4.2 ppm of nitrates. According to your calculations, you're also dosing 2.75 ppm of PO4. That actually yields an N-P ratio of less than 2-1. Most of the recommendations I've seen call for a 10-1 N-P ratio. Yes, I'm aware that some folks go for a lower ratio in an effort to bring out the reds in their plants, but even these folks usually aim for at least a 5-1 N-P ratio. I'd guess that in your "quest for redness", you ran out of nitrates and that caused the stunting that you're now seeing. Just my $.02.


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Thanks Carlos and Pat!

I've actually just upped from 0.2 tsp KNO3 to 0.4 the last dosage I made today(!). I guess I have pushed things to far, but everything else looks healthy but the Nesaea. Today pearling is better, so I will permanentley rise KNO3-dosage.

I decided to add CaCl2 a long time ago because of twisting Ludwigia glandulosa leaves, but didn't get hold of it until a couple of days ago. 

The Nesaea have been stunted since I bought it 15'th Aug - the only visible growth is some aerial roots and some small side shoots that seems stunted. I started CaCl2-dosing 25'th Aug.

Slightly off topic: I've begun to see more spot algae on the front glass despite my high PO4-dosage - Is spot algae also a sign of N-limiting like it is of PO4-limiting conditions?


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

This plant is incredibly hard to keep, so don't feel bad if it doesn't do exactly what you are hoping for.


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

When I began to add more PO4 and K (about a month ago), I noticed a brief proliferation of spot algae on both the front glass and the leaves of Cyperus helferi. I scraped off the first "bloom" and it hasn't come back.

Sometimes you'll get hiccups like that when you're changing your nutrient regimen. If plant growth improved with the added PO4, then I wouldn't worry about the spot algae. It should go away.


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

Since your plants are growing better now from the recent raise.. It means that your plants need more no3. Now would your plant improve more with more no3?? I think so and i think a lot of other people would agree. Add .6tsp or a little more and see what happens. NO3 is a big player in solving nutrients problems. It should be among the first to check when figuring out problems.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

D

Check the APD for my post there. I have not given this planty 100%, but I've tried 4 times and had it longer than anyone else I know of. 
Never looked good.
It's grown emegerent also FYI.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

Actually, Oriental Aquariums grows this plant submersed. The bright red stem and leaves are all submersed growth.

Emersed growth is very different looking --leaves are rounder and mint green. The stem is cherry red and considerably thinner.

Carlos


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

:roll: 

I, for one, am not likely to run home and tear it out of my tanks, now that it's rooting for me, just because someone else has a problem with it.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Come on Sean, you know you wanna

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

Nah it's more fun to have people see it and say, "gee even that Tom guy can't grow that." :lol:


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## jerseyjay (Jan 25, 2004)

Daniel,

Please find my findings in this topic

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...rder=asc&highlight=nesea+pedicillata&&start=0


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I can grow it, just not as a well as I'd like without really trying, submersed.

I've looked at the leaves Carlos, why doesn't it have any epiphytes and every other plant that is grown submersed has?

I know of no plant that does not have at last some things growing on it.
Light ain't it. 
Nutrients ain't it.
CO2 ain't it.

The only thing else you could try is using a very rich soil mix and add a lot of NO3 etc. I tried it in soft and hard water.

I can grow the Nesaea pedicillata easily. 
It's not a Ca/K issue, there is no issue with that. 

I have 2 or 3 things still to try with it, but I might not care
I'd rather have a rare crypt than this plant.

Nice color when it comes in, but I really do not think it's meant for long term plant aquariums. 

Does anyone know of anyone that's had it for more than 2 years and in large red color/size?

Not freshly supplied stuff, the same plant cutting for 2+ years.
If not, then you can scratch this plant off the list and call it a temp emergent plant.

It might be able to be grown, but you care going to have to coddle it no matter what, that much I do know.

Regards
Tom Barr


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

> I can grow it, just not as a well as I'd like without really trying, submersed.
> 
> I've looked at the leaves Carlos, why doesn't it have any epiphytes and every other plant that is grown submersed has?


Tom,

This plant is grown and produced by Oriental Aquariums submersed, period. They have fields of it growing underwater. There must be something to what they are doing with this plant. I am pretty familiar with the submersed growth form.

I didn't know that having flora and fauna coating the leaves is a requirement for being a submersed plant.

I have grown the plant emersed before and have received emersed cuttings from hobbyists. The morphology of the stems are very, very different. It actually adapts readily to submersed conditions with thickening stems and bright red leaves --typical of the Nesaea genus. It actually adapts at much the same rate as Ammania gracilis, Nesaea pedicellata, and Ludwigia brevipes (all compared next to each other) when drowned.

This plant also produces a massive root system for a stem plant. Lots of
healthy white roots.

It's very pretty when doing well. Kind of like a miniature, bright red Ammania with undulating leaves. I think it has a lot of potential for small planted aquariums. Maybe when planted aquarium horticulture continues to be more refined, it'll become more popular.

It's a shame that it is so slow to recover from stunting. It is the ultimate indicator plant.

Carlos


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

I'd rather have a common crypt than ANY stem plant, but I'm fickle like that. If it wasn't for Ghazanfar starting to dump stems on me when he got bored I probably wouldn't have any.

This is how I coddle plants, I put some of the plant in every aqaurium I have. The aquarium that it keeps growing in is the one it stays in. There isn't another thing that I do after setting the tank up that could be remotely associated with coddling. I might be nice and move the other stems or rosettes to the tank that it is fairing well in, but I'm more likely to leave everything where it is. I think all my tanks get an equal portion of inattention.

I don't think this plant will ever have _Ammania gracilis_ sized leaves in an aquarium but the red is very deep and intense. Looking through my emails, I've had it since October 2003, I've had _A. gracilis_ and _Nesaea pedicillata_ since April 2003. The _N. pedicilata_ was mixed in the bag of _A. gracilis_ and I recently figured out why that stand of green _Ammania_ never grew red leaves. I had slowly seperated the big red leaf stems from the small green leaf stems while trimming this summer. I guess growing _N. pedicilata_ must not be too hard, I did it without even knowing I had it.


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

I had the most success with this plant when I was running a non-CO2 setup with about 2.2wpg and a soil substrate. It grew about as fast as Anubias, and it was more brown than red, but it most definitely grew.

The new leaves that it put out were shaped the same way as the ones on the plant when it arrives, but they were a little smaller.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I said this on my forum where you posted the same question, but I do not see what is wrong with the plant other than the fact I see some algae on the leaves. What in the picture is supposed to be wrong with the plant? I don't have any experience with this plant so I guess I don't know what it is supposed to look like.


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## Momotaro (Feb 17, 2004)

This is a real "mystery" plant to me.

Jay and I both picked some up at our LFS. The fellow at that shop seems to grow the plant quite well in a plain Flourite substrate, with a good amount of MH light over it (I am not sure how much). I believe all he does is dose with Flourish, nothing else. His plant has good color, and grows and multiplies, but the leaves themselves are stunted, in my opinion. They are short and round. The whole plant survives in the shop's aquarium, but it does not thrive.

The plants I took home did well for a while. I never got that rich, pinky color, but the leaves were a gorgeous, long billowy green. You wouldn't think it was the same plant I had originally purchased. Again, the plant did well for a while at a CO2 level of 15ppm, 3WPG 10:1 , NO3O4. Then it just tired out. Tips became stunted and growth stopped. The new shoots on the stunted plant also did well for a while, and then they stunted.

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 17, 2004)

This is a real "mystery" plant to me.

Jay and I both picked some up at our LFS. The fellow at that shop seems to grow the plant quite well in a plain Flourite substrate, with a good amount of MH light over it (I am not sure how much). I believe all he does is dose with Flourish, nothing else. His plant has good color, and grows and multiplies, but the leaves themselves are stunted, in my opinion. They are short and round. The whole plant survives in the shop's aquarium, but it does not thrive.

The plants I took home did well for a while. I never got that rich, pinky color, but the leaves were a gorgeous, long billowy green. You wouldn't think it was the same plant I had originally purchased. Again, the plant did well for a while at a CO2 level of 15ppm, 3WPG 10:1 , NO3O4. Then it just tired out. Tips became stunted and growth stopped. The new shoots on the stunted plant also did well for a while, and then they stunted.

Mike


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Robert Hudson said:


> What in the picture is supposed to be wrong with the plant?


The red arrow up to the left. Totally distorted leaves. Compare the distorted levaes to the ones below the top.



> I don't have any experience with this plant so I guess I don't know what it is supposed to look like.


This good:
http://194.236.255.117/defblog/picture/1509.html
This is bad:
http://194.236.255.117/defblog/picture/1518.html


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Well when you have a nice size batch of this plant all from cuttings from your own tank after a couple of years, you let me know.
Refined or not, this plant is not even close to the same weed like level as N pedicillata, any Ammania etc, those are good relatively easy to grow plants IME.

Yes, I've had it adapt etc, had nice strong root system, decent color etc for awhile. 

We will see how you feel about the plant after 1-2 years and see how your plant looks then. I could have done better with it, but heck with such a finicky plant, A senegalisis is pretty close in size, shape, close in color and grows much better.

I had this plant back in 1998, again a couple time since. I might try it again and see if I can get more health from it. May as well, I seem to be able to grow Tonia awful good which seems to give folks trouble. Not many plants left I have not grown to a high level of health. So I'll give it another try and really try this time and see. 

I can always find a use for red plant 

Tom Barr


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