# Type of filters you use in a NPT



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Just curious what you guys use. Sorry if this has been brought up before.. I was thinking that a canister filter is handy in a high tech tank.. Why not a NPT?


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## kenny1tothe6 (Aug 12, 2007)

I use my standard eclipse hex5 BIO-Wheel filter.....That's because NPT's are essentially self sustauining and the dont need all that filtration.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Ideally don't need the bio-wheel too 
The Ammonia is being consumed by the plants.
I did have a filter in the beginning due to algea and high ammonia/nitrite.
Let the tank cycled, and then took it out (was HOB). I still answered none since I don't use it now 


kenny1tothe6 said:


> I use my standard eclipse hex5 BIO-Wheel filter.....That's because NPT's are essentially self sustauining and the dont need all that filtration.


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## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

Isn't one of the points of a NPT to not need a filter?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Wouldn't a filter benefit any tank? Ammonia is a big culprit in algae outbreaks. And water movement is generally good for plants and fish.


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## Tentacles (Jun 25, 2006)

I think it would. I use a large sponge filter that expells the air and water sideways across the surface of a 2ft tank.

My understanding of the main use of a filter in the NPT is to give the bacteria an additional home (in this case the sponge) and to create movement and break the water surface for gas exchange type processes. The large sponge filter has worked great for two years with no algae problems.

I'm about to set up a larger NPT and I'm putting in an internal power filter with a spray bar which is slightly smaller than the correct size for that volume of water in a normal tank, so you see, I'm sticking to my current understanding of providing a spongey bacteria home, breaking the water's surface and shifting the water around a bit.

A canister filter is probably too much filtration for a NPT.


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## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

Yeah, it would benefit, but the point of NPTs are to use the plants as the "filters" and not need one. Adding a filter would be nice though.


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## mpagri (Dec 7, 2007)

wow, 50% so far have said canister. i would not have guessed that.


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

No filters in any of my NPT.


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## Tentacles (Jun 25, 2006)

Wow... I'm surprised too. Wouldn't the cannister filter be robbing the plants of their nitrate... and therefore not natural? Leading to the question of whether anyone who is using a cannister filter actually has a natural planted tank? Are they feeding the plants via a substrate and dosing ferts too to keep the plants healthy?

I'm pretty sure the NPT book/bible says to use a small filter.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Tentacles said:


> Wow... I'm surprised too. Wouldn't the cannister filter be robbing the plants of their nitrate... and therefore not natural? Leading to the question of whether anyone who is using a cannister filter actually has a natural planted tank? Are they feeding the plants via a substrate and dosing ferts too to keep the plants healthy?
> 
> I'm pretty sure the NPT book/bible says to use a small filter.


filters of any size (with proper bacteria load) convert NH4 to NO3.. So, nitrate is available for plants.. 
A canister is just efficient at converting NH4 to NO3


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## Kurt Reinhart (Mar 4, 2003)

I just finished reading Walstad's book "Ecology of a Planted Aquarium". Great book btw. 

She provides great examples (actual data instead of testimonials) that many (probably most) aquatic plants prefer ammonium (NH4) to nitrate (NO3). She argues that bacteria are essentially competing with plants for ammonium. Plants can use nitrate but it is energetically more costly than getting their Nitrogen from ammonium. Thus, she seems to advocate limited additional biological filtration beyond a fully planted tank (which will have tons of bacterial biofilms coating the leaves anyway)... I think I recall her removing the biological filtration components of her filter although acknowledging that any mechanical filtering components will become biological filters over time without cleaning/replacement. So if you keep a planted tank and the plants are actively growing then ammonium should not be a problem because the plants and bacteria will readily utilize it. Just keep the plants growing (regular clipping) and not dieing.

Her section on algae also makes a compelling case that algae problems probably relate to something other than Nitrogen (e.g. iron).

Edit- As mistergreen below notes plants will use nitrate. The issue is when given a choice they generally take up ammonium preferentially over nitrate. So they'll use nitrate but it isn't their first choice. They are not making a conscious choice but enzematically it is easier for them to get their nitrogen from ammonium than it is from nitrate. So converting all you ammonium to nitrate via bacterial nitrification in a biofilter will make your plants in effect work harder to get the same amount of Nitrogen.


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## Kurt Reinhart (Mar 4, 2003)

Oh ya, the poll question should probably be changed to be more specific to NPT and not planted tanks in general. Since NPT are probably the miniority with lots of people doing intermediate/hybrid and high tech tanks. The poll is going to be skewed by all the people with other types of planted tanks reporting their filtration. I would guess most NPT are not using canisters unless they have removed the biological filtration component.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Kurt Reinhart said:


> Oh ya, the poll question should probably be changed to be more specific to NPT and not planted tanks in general. Since NPT are probably the miniority with lots of people doing intermediate/hybrid and high tech tanks. The poll is going to be skewed by all the people with other types of planted tanks reporting their filtration. I would guess most NPT are not using canisters unless they have removed the biological filtration component.


The thread title is specific to NPT, the poll question isn't. hopefully there isn't any confusion.. And I have no idea how to change the poll question.

There's data that plants will take up NO3 when there's no or little NH4 around as well...


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## Wiedertäufer (Nov 17, 2007)

I use an Aquaclear 30 Powerhead with the Quickfilter attachment. I also find that if you remove the media you can run other media in the little cylinder if you put it in a good media bag. My soil has so much organic material (wood) that my water gets quite dark with tannins. A media bag with purigen cleans it up nicely. When I'm not spot cleaning with a specific media (carbon, purigen) I use the quick filter media as they can be reused and are really good at taking small particles out of the water.

EDIT -- now that I think of it, I may be able to jam small bags of various media inside of the cylinder pieces even when the quickfilter media is in place. I'll have to try that.

Also, you can get a low micron filter pad and just cut it and roll it around the inner cyclinders for ultra cheap replacement. With how well the stuff cleans up, a $13 sheet might last you the rest of the tank's life.


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## Tentacles (Jun 25, 2006)

Thanks for correcting me. I wasn't sure if my statement had the right end of the stick. I fully concur with Kurt (for what it's worth now I've shown I don't know which essential chemical it is that a large filter will steal from plants  ).

I've just got room enough in my memory to keep track of the practicalities. Please excuse it's apparent ignorance. It also has trouble with names. :mrgreen:


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## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

Just put in a small UV filter (Submariner from Drs F & S). It's all I need for water movement with my plants. I am liking in the NPT. It's going well enough that I may try to do a big tank this summer. I like it and my shrimp _love_ it.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I use HOB filters for smaller tanks, Canisters for larger tanks. 
None of the tanks are pure NPT, though. 

I clean and reuse filter media, but I am not very careful to conserve the bacteria: I spray off the media with the garden hose (Chloramines in the water)


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

mommyeireanne said:


> Just put in a small UV filter (Submariner from Drs F & S). It's all I need for water movement with my plants. I am liking in the NPT. It's going well enough that I may try to do a big tank this summer. I like it and my shrimp _love_ it.


Aren't you afraid little baby shrimps might get sucked in?

Interesting that canisters are leading the poll.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I only have a powerhead to trap particles after trimming or moving plants, no media, and it's washed often enough to not be a biological filter. Plus it's a UVS for when I need it, mostly just to move the water though.


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## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

I was, but they have done ok. I watched it closely for a while. They weren't hatchlings, but about the same size as some of the largest Daphnia (magna) that died off with the UV filter. I figured it was because RCS are adapted to fast water and Daphnia are not. Some Daphnia live in mud puddles, others in ponds. Never read of a Daphnia population in streams, though I'm no expert. On the other hand, someone here posted that Cherry Red Shrimp climb waterfalls in HI, USA, displacing/out-competing native shrimp. And they all seem to love the fast current, even the tiny ones (1/4 inch) could handle it, and swim against the current away from the filter. I hope the same will be true for hatchlings, I think I'll have to leave it off once I have seen a female berried for a few weeks. I just now have one female saddled, so I'm watching.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

All my el natural tanks do not use filters (2.5 gallon, 10 gallon, 40 gallon). I have never observed an ammonia, nitrite, or even nitrate spike, even right after setup. All very healthy tanks without much algae.

Kurt said it perfectly and I concur. A well planted tank will absorb all the ammonia/nitrite generated by fish etc. metabolism. There is no need for the biological filtration that a filter would provide; it will only compete with the plants.

A filter is useful in NPTs for other reasons though. It keeps the nutrients well distributed in the water column, allows you to mechanically filter large pieces of debris. If you want UV or diatom filtration (useful for green water attacks; UV also for some disease prevention) then you of course will need a filter.

I have occasionally used the JBJ Submariner UV sterilizer to fight green water outbreaks, and it works well for that purpose and does pretty much anything I'd ever need a filter for. If I had a really big tank I would go with a cannister filter just because they tend to be quieter and do not clutter the inside of the tank. Plus you can add all sorts of things in line to your heart's content, like UV sterilizers, heaters, etc. Easy to add activated carbon if you ever had the need. But I would remove all the bio-media and use only the coarse mechanical filtration elements.

I personally never use hang-on-back filters just because most of the ones I've ever used aerate the water a lot.... driving off precious CO2. And they don't seem quite as efficient at mixing the water as the other options.

Power heads are fine, but all they provide is nutrient distribution (and perhaps mechanical filtration if a sponge filter or quickfilter is attached). In my filter-less tanks, I have seen good enough results without the water movement, so I don't bother fussing with a powerhead.


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## trashion (Jan 6, 2008)

whoops. i have an aquaclear running with polyfiber, sponge, and biomax. it gets a LOT of junk (having issues with algae, etc)


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> Wouldn't a filter benefit any tank? Ammonia is a big culprit in algae outbreaks. And water movement is generally good for plants and fish.


Yes a filter does benefit any tank scheme don't let the fan boy's tell you otherwise unless you like
having an algae filled tank for awhile.

The best advice any hobbyist can give is _"Go with whatever *you* know works"_ because at the end
of the day it's your tank and forum members won't generally be able to run to your house to fix
the problem. Plus 99% of LFS owners won't know what a NPT is or how to fix it when you need help.

For a new NPT hobbyist stick with a filter for awhile even if it's a little Whisper inline as it will not
only add filtration but more importantly circulate the water. If you want to look at canisters go with
something cheap like the Plenn Plax Cascade 300 ($9.99) or 400 ($15.00) inline without the spray bar
depending on your tank size. You can decide on if you want to use the chemical filter chamber or fill
it with bio-glass instead for double biological as it has a course sponge filter at the bottom.

Later on after you have the mechanics and chemistry down for a NPT then you can migrate away from filtration.

- Brad


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm in the process of setting up a NPT tank ATM... Unfortunatly it has a overflow in the back! I've decided to use it as it was org intended, only I don't plan on filling the biofilter with lots of material... just a simple filter mat for the pump to sit on, and then run the hole thing as a sort of settiment settling container!

I don't know if it's dump or not... The overflow will certainly aireate some of the CO2 from the water!

Another option would be to fill the biofilter with plants like hornsworth or someother aireal plants... But again, there is no REAL reason for using it other than the overflow is allready there!

BTW Any ideas on this would be greatly appreciated!

Brian


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## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

I use canisters (Ehiem) with just bio filtration, mostly for the water flow which is needed. So instread of using power heads I might as well add a filter and have as much flexability as I can. At least then I can add carbon or other filters media if needed.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I have powerheads with sponge prefilters in my larger NPTs mainly for water movement. Several of my smaller tanks have nothing for water movement. They do just fine.


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## amkid247 (Aug 14, 2007)

i would use a cannister filter just for water movement, so that the temperature of the water stays stable. otherwise the upper water gets hot, while the bottom stays cool.


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## oregon aqua (Jan 30, 2008)

i use a magnum 350 canister with only filter floss (actually poly pillow stuffing) i change the stuffing 2x a month and clean the prefilter sleeve in super hot water. i attached a longer tube to the outlet so thier is no surface movement.


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## Dzidek1983 (Dec 13, 2007)

Eheim Proffesionel "2026" canister filter

had it before.... very very good filter.... a little data ----> http://eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/index.jsp?key=liniendetail_27523_ehen


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I'm using an AquaClear 20 on my 10g. I added extra sponge to the filter as well as a baffle to kill the current. Every now and then, the water's surface might move a little but it's certainly nothing to worry about. I'm quite pleased with this filter.


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

I was thinking the same thing.


littleguy said:


> I would go with a cannister filter just because they tend to be quieter and do not clutter the inside of the tank. Plus you can add all sorts of things in line to your heart's content, like UV sterilizers, heaters, etc. Easy to add activated carbon if you ever had the need. But I would remove all the bio-media and use only the coarse mechanical filtration elements.


 There should be room for a canister filter with a low flow rate (a tank volume that cycles 4-5 times an hour) and with a small canister/filter volume no more then a large sponge in the NPT doctrine. 
:brushteet


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

I think I'll chime in as well. I never used filter in my npt tanks since I started a couple years ago. The joy of not having to clean and buy filter is a reward in itself. I have used water pump off and on. I have to clean the pump every few months as gunk will build up in the pump and the hose itself. Currently I am back to not using the water pump and so only electric device is the light. Personally from using water pump and no water pump, I really don't notice the difference between the two. There doesn't seem to be anymore or less algae using either method. I question whether water pump really distributes the nutrients in the water. Maybe through osmosis or random movements, the nutrients gets distributed evenly throughout the tank on it's own. The gently swimming action of the fishes may also contribute. From my experience, having lots of plant,sunlight, electric light, and heater in the colder days is all you really need for a tank. Less work less maintenance and a happier hobbyist. Cheers.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

i'm using an 'underated' canister (ie rated for 150 Gal, used on a 200 Gal tank). Will also place a powerhead just for water movement. The reasons behind my choice are:

1. Canisters provide good water motion without splash/loss of CO2. I can also place the inlet/outlet where i want (as opposed to HOB) so i'd get much better real circulation.
2. I have moderately hard water, so i will be substituting the carbon insert for a peat insert once the initial phase goes by.
3. I'd rather have the plants fight for ammonia, rather than any ammonia build up. 
4. The tank is 200 gal and i'm new at this! so i'm playing it safe.
5. Mechanical filtration. Dont like floating debris...
6. Because i'm using some natural light, so still monitoring the light/ammonia/algae balance (see 4).


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## Perianth (Mar 17, 2009)

What I look for is the least amount of work, simplicity, and fail proof. My favorite NPT of all time was an unfiltered 2 ft by 2 ft shallow tank I built with a glass top cover. My favorite filter has been the Fluval canister, and I agree with littleguy's statement regarding canister filters. I do like the quick filter on a power head and have used the aquaclear HOB a good bit; Red Rose has a great idea to baffle the water using a 1/2 liter soda bottle.


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