# [Wet Thumb Forum]-A few (O.K. several) questions



## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Hello All,
I'm relatively new to this site, but VERY happy to have found it!
About three mo. ago my tanks and I moved to Ohio and the fish were most gracious in their decision not to die during the tedious process. 
The most pending problem at the moment is agae... Mutant, alien, I'm gonna get you sucka algae. I think we have just about every kind in there with the exception of green water. There is quite a bit of beard algae, blue green, red, black, I think I saw some plaid in there this morning! 
When I first set the tank up all the parameters were fine except for the kh which was consistantlly at zero. Odd though, that it comes out of the tap at three. I tried crushed coral and oyster grit in the filter wich only raised the kh to 1. Baking soda has now raised it to four. Does baking soda eventually break down into salt, and is it potentially harmful to keep adding it to a soil tank? What is the ideal level for kh? How can I send this algae back to the planet it came from? I have a bottle of Algae-Fix winking at me from the shelf, but I'm trying to do this the safest way for the fish, they deserve it!
Any/All feedback would be greatly appriciated, this stuff is all over everything! Thanks to everyone involved with this wonderful site!

29 gal. 18h x 30w x 12d
2 20w bulbs- 1 cool wht, 1 sylvania gro-lux (can't wait to get better lighting, but $'s a problem)
ph- was 7, but after addition of baking soda is now 7.5- how can I lower ph without lowering kh?
gh- 9
kh- 4
no 2- <0.3
nh3/nh4- 0
kids- 6 cardinals, a few bleeding hearts, cherry barbs, rasboras, blood fins, red wags, clown lowches, cories, and a pleco
heavily planted- a few amazon sword, hornwort, chain swords, lutea, hygrophila polysperma, bacopa, several (10-15) sag or val types, a lobelia cardinalis and an aechinodorus osiris. Also a small and struggling population of water lettuce and duckweed.


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Hello All,
I'm relatively new to this site, but VERY happy to have found it!
About three mo. ago my tanks and I moved to Ohio and the fish were most gracious in their decision not to die during the tedious process. 
The most pending problem at the moment is agae... Mutant, alien, I'm gonna get you sucka algae. I think we have just about every kind in there with the exception of green water. There is quite a bit of beard algae, blue green, red, black, I think I saw some plaid in there this morning! 
When I first set the tank up all the parameters were fine except for the kh which was consistantlly at zero. Odd though, that it comes out of the tap at three. I tried crushed coral and oyster grit in the filter wich only raised the kh to 1. Baking soda has now raised it to four. Does baking soda eventually break down into salt, and is it potentially harmful to keep adding it to a soil tank? What is the ideal level for kh? How can I send this algae back to the planet it came from? I have a bottle of Algae-Fix winking at me from the shelf, but I'm trying to do this the safest way for the fish, they deserve it!
Any/All feedback would be greatly appriciated, this stuff is all over everything! Thanks to everyone involved with this wonderful site!

29 gal. 18h x 30w x 12d
2 20w bulbs- 1 cool wht, 1 sylvania gro-lux (can't wait to get better lighting, but $'s a problem)
ph- was 7, but after addition of baking soda is now 7.5- how can I lower ph without lowering kh?
gh- 9
kh- 4
no 2- <0.3
nh3/nh4- 0
kids- 6 cardinals, a few bleeding hearts, cherry barbs, rasboras, blood fins, red wags, clown lowches, cories, and a pleco
heavily planted- a few amazon sword, hornwort, chain swords, lutea, hygrophila polysperma, bacopa, several (10-15) sag or val types, a lobelia cardinalis and an aechinodorus osiris. Also a small and struggling population of water lettuce and duckweed.


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Welcome! If you kh out of the tap is 3, but dropping when in your tank, then something in your tank is leaching an acid. Do you have any driftwood? I'm fighting the same battle right now, and it definitely appears to be my driftwood. An ideal kh is anything over 3.

As to lowering your ph without affecting kh, you'll need to get some CO2 in the tank. As you have a 29g and are low on funds, you'll want to go the DIY route. Lots of other posts out there telling how to do that. I did it that way for a couple of years, though the pressurized route is easier and, in the long run (especially if you consider your time), cheaper.

Good luck, and keep the questions coming.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your lighting and water parameters sound fine, but you don't say what's in your substrate. 

Also, what filter are you using?


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Thank you BSS and Ms. Walstad,
Yes, I do have one piece of drift wood, that trouble maker! I'd Love to do CO2, but am trying to go slowly and learn quickly. I was afraid that CO2 might exacerbate the problems and lead to PH crashes and fish tragedy. Should I take the drift wood out?
The substrate (sorry to have left that out!) is 1" top soil covered by 1" of small gravel. The filter is a hang on the back Whisper filter.
I also meant to ask- I still have yellow water after three months, should I be concerned? I would use some charcoal, but would that hinder raising the KH? And finally, I tried to find the nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium ratio for Miracle Gro recommended by Ms. Walstad in earlier posts, and was unsuccessful. Any suggestions?
Thanks to Everyone!!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Looks to me like your KH is as low as I'd let it go. The carbonates (KH) in your water are what buffers the acids produced by the nitrogen cycle and keep pH from dropping. I generally try and keep my KH up around 7dh using baking soda (tho there are other things that can provide carbonates). That keeps my pH up in the mid 7s. Here's a calculator I built that will let you decide how much baking soda to add based on how many gallons you tank holds and how much you want to raise KH.

The drift wood is probably what's causing the yellow color. Consider taking it out and soaking it in a tub of water with known pH and see if the pH changes in the tub.


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Thank You Betty,
Your Goldies are Gorgeous! Soaking the drift wood- great idea, the kind you have to thwump yourself on the side of the head and say "Why didn't I think of that?". The calculator is wonderful too! 
I read that baking soda eventually breaks down and has to be replaced, but I've also read that salt doesn't break down and you need to be careful how much you end up adding over time. I'm not sure whether any of this is misinformation or if it's something to be concerned about. Also, if the drift wood is the culprit- is this normal or is there something wrong with this piece?
Thanks again


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by m. reed:
> Thank you BSS and Ms. Walstad,
> ...


The charcoal shouldn't affect the KH. I would change the water and add some charcoal to your filter. This may help out with the algae problem by removing NPK nutrients and chelated iron from the water.

The yellow color may also be coming from humus in the soil. My guess from your letter is that you used potting soil, and this will cause a temporary yellowish water.

Don't worry about NPK ratios; one inch of soil has more than enough nutrients.

Also, with the soil and all the evidence of organic matter (yellowish water), I doubt that you need to add any CO2 ... at least at this stage.

As to KH there are other ways to bring this up without adding sodium bicarbonate. In my book, I've recommended oyster grit or crushed coral in the filter. You might want to add a little of both. Also, there are commercial products to increase GH and KH.

It sounds like the plants aren't growing that well and the soil is releasing enough nutrients to give you an algae problem.

I hope that you will find a way to solve your problem. Ecosystems are complicated!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Re my goldies. thanks!









Yes, baking soda gets used up over time because you're adding a set amount that is consumed buffering the acids produced in the tank. Then you have to add more. The reason Diane suggested using oyster grit or crushed coral is because they release carbonates slowly into the water. Onve they're used up it's he same as baking soda, you'd need to add more... they last a lot longer than baking soda does. I can tell you how much baking soda to add... you'll have to experiment with how much of the oyster grit or crushed coral to use.

Salt doesn't evaporate, so once it's in the tank, it stays there till you remove it with partial water changes.

Betty


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I tried crushed coral and oyster grit in the filter which only raised the KH to one. Baking soda has now raised it to four.


 Thanks Betty and Ms. Walstad,
After about 7 weeks the coral and oyster grit had raised the KH from zero to only one and the algae was really out-pacing the plants so I turned to the baking soda. I'd also thought of chemical alternatives (for the algae and the kh-to at least give the plants a fighting chance), but was very hesitant after reading Ms. Walstad's very sound advice "Algaecides, which are chemicals that kill algae, often cause more problems than they solve in planted aquariums...Both are toxic to fish and plants. The dose that will kill algae in an aquuarium without harming fish or plants is often hard- if not impossible to determine. Even if the algaecide doesn't kill the fish, the dead algae sometimes will." -p. 157 
You guys are right though, ecosystems are complicated and I'm just going to have to tweak it, and go slowly. Play with larger amounts of the crushed coral and oyster grit. Thank you for your good advice and responding so quickly! Your input is invaluable!
-Molly


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dear Molly,

It sounds like you are really trying hard here with your tank, which is why you are getting so much help from everyone.

Did you use Miracle Grow Potting Soil for your one inch of soil substrate? It might help us all to know what you used.

I would try to temporarily lower the water level to where you can get some of your plants above the water line. Once plants get some growth above the water line, they can get air CO2 and don't have to contend with algae. I had to do this recently in my 55 gal.


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Dear Ms. Walstad,
Thank you so much for your time and help. I will lower the water leval this afternoon!
I used All-Par Top Soil from my favorite Mom and Pop greenhouse. The top soil at Lowes and Home Depot here all seemed to contain too much unquantified matter and I was afraid of acidifying or otherwise contaminating the water. All-Par seemed the most plain and straightforward.
I asked about the Miracle Gro because I'm about to bring my little ryukin monsters in from their small pond for the winter and I need to set up their tank again (broken down because of the move). I'd love to set them up El Natural too, but I need to do something different this time or I expect the same problem would probably arise. Since plants out number people in my house about four million to one, Miracle Gro is readily available! And seems a little more quantifiable (maybe I'm crazy!(. But I don't know if it's the right formula. 
Boy, sorry to post a novel here! Thanks again for your (and everybody's) help! It is the tremendous knowledge and good will of this forum that is so inspiaring!
-Molly


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I suggested in an earlier post to this website that Miracle Grow potting soil might work well. It did work well for me with some potted plants. However, I have never used it as an entire substrate for my tanks. 

The safest thing (to prevent algae) is to use unfertilized soils. I've always used the cheapest, presumably those without added fertilizers.

Miracle Grow and other fertilized soils may not be the best.


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Ah-ha! Pots, I see. I _had_ wondered about how rich MG is. Common sense always seems most commonsensical after the fact! Thank you for all the good info, advise, and help!
-Molly


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hello,

When I set up my first soil substrate tank I used an inch (wet, after soaking) of Miracle Grow potting soil under an inch of 2mm - 3mm gravel. The water chemistry got way out of whack (pH + 1.0, DH and KH + 10 to 15 degrees, nitrates off the chart) but the plants grew well - too well - and the fish are healthy.

But the tank is just too rich and I have a constant green algae (and duckweed) maintenance requirement. So I'm taking it down.

I've been using plain, cheap, unfortified top soil, a little peat, and mulm under gravel, with good results. I'll try MG again, but I'll use a lot less.

Good luck.

Bill


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## graham1212 (Oct 13, 2004)

about the driftwood: boiling it for several hours works well to help get that yellow color out, so it wont stain your water as much. i boiled a very large piece for about 12 hours and it barely stains my water at all. it may also help it sink if thats causing a problem too. 

graham


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Billpers and Graham1212,
Thanks for the info! Green water is about the only thing I don't have at this point, and my stuff is going so strong it'll probably be making me coffee in the morning pretty soon!







So I think I'll save the MG for the house plants! I've declared war now though, so we'll just see who ends up holding the Folgers!
And Graham1212, I'm definitely going to take your advice about the drift wood. Just got a new peice for the goldie tank I'm setting up and it's going to go into the pot this aftrtnoon. Thanks for the help everyone!
-Molly


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## graham1212 (Oct 13, 2004)

when you're boiling make sure to keep the water level in the pot up. if it boils dry it can damage your pot and stove


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Billpers:
> Hello,
> ...


Hi Bill,

Thanks for posting your experience on Miracle Grow v. unfertilized soils. It sounds right on!

I regret having ever suggesting Miracle Grow on this website!

Hobbyists should only use unfertilized soils (no added N,P,K, cow manure, etc).


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So have you set up the goldie tank yet?

I may convert my 55 gallon goldie tank to a soil substrate over christmas. Almost did it yesterday when I rearranged the tank, but chickened out cuz I don't have time to keep an eye on water parms right now.

I think I'll pick up some oyster shell grit and give it a try in my tanks. Was going to try aragonite for leaching carbonate, but they want like $22 at the pet store for a bag of it.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

You should be able to get a cheap mineral supplement containing calcium and magnesium at the grocery store or any garden center.


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## m. reed (Jul 13, 2004)

Hi All,
Yes, I just set the tank up a few days ago with amazon swords, crypts, hornwort, dwarf sag and hair grass, and a handful of water lettuce. We'll see how long it lasts once I put the kids in!








The plants are just in fine gravel, I'd like to figure out what was out of balance in the other tank first. Plus, we'll probably be moving again soon when we find a house,so now is a good time to do all my experimenting!
But, Good news on the algae front! I lowered the water level, upped the kh to eight, decreased the duration of light (from twelve hours per day to nine-ish), reduced the amount of food portions, gave the gravel a good vacuuming, crammed some charcoal in between the oyster grit and crushed coral in the filter, scraped, scrubbed, boiled, blasted, and gave the pleco a VERY stern talking to about Duty, Honour, and The Virtue of Diligence, and there seems to be a bit of improvment! There are patches that used to be like a black shag carpet that are clearing now and the plants are looking definitely more emerald green than they have in a while! I'm hoping that the rest of the algae will diminish if I keep all this up. Thanks again to everyone for their good advice!
-Molly


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