# Flourite vs Eco-Complete?



## jlm9679 (Jun 26, 2009)

In a new El natural tank with Fluorite as substrate, are water column fertilizers such as Tropica TPN+ needed as well, or does the Fluorite supply everything the plant mass will need (apart from carbon)?

Fluorite is considered among the best substrates, but it only contains micronutrients, which makes me wonder about the best way to supply the macronutrients missing. The tank will have some fish, but not too many, to minimize maintenance.

I thought about putting Eco-Complete at the bottom, and Flourite on top as gravel. Would this be any good?


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Before your question could be answered, could you advise as to the kind of lighting you have already, if any?


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Flourite and Eco-Complete do not supply micro-nutrients there kiln fired clay products and only supply trace Fe you would have to supply NPK+trace in some fashion wither it's El Natrual (fish poop+plants+bio-load) or by the standard methods of water column ferts+root tabs.

The only enriched substrates that I know of are ADA and MFS.

- Brad


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## jlm9679 (Jun 26, 2009)

Avi said:


> Before your question could be answered, could you advise as to the kind of lighting you have already, if any?


Being at the planning stage, I don't have the tank yet, but the target is a Juwel Rio 125 which comes with 2x28W tubes.


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## jlm9679 (Jun 26, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> Flourite and Eco-Complete do not supply micro-nutrients there kiln fired clay products and only supply trace Fe you would have to supply NPK+trace in some fashion wither it's El Natrual (fish poop+plants+bio-load) or by the standard methods of water column ferts+root tabs.
> 
> The only enriched substrates that I know of are ADA and MFS.
> 
> - Brad


Are we talking about the same product?? See below:

_***Flourite™ Support

Q: Do I need to add anything to Flourite™? Does it inherently contain micro and macro nutrients? If so, how long before these nutrients are naturally exhausted?
A: Flourite™inherently contains only micro nutrients and these are slowly released, many not released unless actively transported by the plant roots. Thus the substrate should be self-sustaining for many years and should never actually require replacement.

Q: Should I be incorporating any other products?
A: Depending on how dense the growth or how dense you wish it to be, the use of Flourish™,(foliar feeding), Flourish Tabs™(root feeding) and Flourish Iron™can be useful and helpful beyond the substrate itself, but are not necessities.

***Caribsea Eco-Complete
Contains iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus and 25 other elements to nourish your aquatic plants. (manufacturer's description)_

Personally, I thought the idea of using these substrates was not to need to add water column ferts to any large degree, I suppose I must have been wrong all along...


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Okay, then....I'm not familiar with the Juwel Rio 125 but I checked the homepage for it and it's said to be a "high light" unit with the fixture that it comes with. However, my conversions led me to a watts/gallon of about 1.8 so I wouldn't really consider that "high light."

That being said, brad's right about the substrates that you're considering not supplying anything but the trace Fe and the need to supply the potassium, nitrate and phosphate...not to mention the trace ferts...through other means. Take a look at Estimative Index-dosing:

http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm

Along with that, note that CO2 is an important element in this and so, IMO, you should look into providing some form of CO2 even if you would decide to use DIY in the beginning.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

jlm9679 said:


> Are we talking about the same product?? See below:
> 
> _***Flourite™ Support
> 
> ...


Yes we are talking about the same products which I've used for years and I know better than to believe the 'marketspeak' the only trace it leaches in any real quantity that a plant can use is Fe which is why I use Flourite/Eco/SMS/SAS. I like the high CEC and nothing but Fe so I can dose my water column with what I want instead of what the manufacture wants (I'm thinking of ADA).

With a decent bio-load and the right plants an El Natural tank can go without ferts or without much at least but for 90% of the tanks out there you need some sort of water column fert regiment or your going to end up with half-dead to fully-dead plants.

- Brad


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Avi said:


> Okay, then....I'm not familiar with the Juwel Rio 125 but I checked the homepage for it and it's said to be a "high light" unit with the fixture that it comes with. However, my conversions led me to a watts/gallon of about 1.8 so I wouldn't really consider that "high light."
> 
> That being said, brad's right about the substrates that you're considering not supplying anything but the trace Fe and the need to supply the potassium, nitrate and phosphate...not to mention the trace ferts...through other means. Take a look at Estimative Index-dosing:
> 
> ...


You have to watch that 'marketspeak' Juwel is calling there fixture "High-Light" not that it *is* a high light output fixture. From there website they say it has two 45w T5's so that puts it in the low light category for that tank.

~

Don't let the EI dosing system scare you it's as easy as buying a pound of KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, CSM+B, and GH Booster from [ http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2 ] and dosing the KN03/KH2PO4/K2SO4 on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and the CSM+B on Tuesday and Thursday. You then take a brake on Saturday but on Sunday you do a 50$ water change and dose KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, GH Booster.

For one tank that's a brease even for 20+ tanks once you figure out a system that works for you it's fast.

- Brad


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Avi said:


> Okay, then....I'm not familiar with the Juwel Rio 125 but I checked the homepage for it and it's said to be a "high light" unit with the fixture that it comes with. However, my conversions led me to a watts/gallon of about 1.8 so I wouldn't really consider that "high light."
> 
> That being said, brad's right about the substrates that you're considering not supplying anything but the trace Fe and the need to supply the potassium, nitrate and phosphate...not to mention the trace ferts...through other means. Take a look at Estimative Index-dosing:
> 
> ...


You have to watch that 'marketspeak' Juwel is calling there fixture "High-Light" not that it *is* a high light output fixture. From there website they say it has two 45w T5's so that puts it in the low light category for that tank.

~

Don't let the EI dosing system scare you it's as easy as buying a pound of KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, CSM+B, and GH Booster from [ http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2 ] and dosing the KN03/KH2PO4/K2SO4 on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and the CSM+B on Tuesday and Thursday. You then take a brake on Saturday but on Sunday you do a 50% water change and dose KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, GH Booster.

For one tank that's a snap even for 20+ tanks once you figure out a system that works for you it's fast.

- Brad


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Hehe...great thread so far, this. Shows some passion for keeping a plante tank, doesn't it? 

But, once again, I agree with brad...though, you may already be feeling some sensory overload. He's right not to be intimidated by things like EI-dosing and also getting CO2 into your planted tank. Just take the time to read about these things and post right here and you'll get your info...and your comfort level.


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## jlm9679 (Jun 26, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> Don't let the EI dosing system scare you it's as easy as buying a pound of KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, CSM+B, and GH Booster from [ http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2 ] and dosing the KN03/KH2PO4/K2SO4 on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and the CSM+B on Tuesday and Thursday. You then take a brake on Saturday but on Sunday you do a 50$ water change and dose KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, GH Booster.
> - Brad


Well that was quite a mothful for a beginner like me to digest... When you say you use Flourite/Eco/SMS/SAS, do you mean you use them together? And what are SMS/SAS? I suppose by Eco you mean Caribsea Eco-Complete?

Of course I want healthy plants, but I was hoping to avoid heavy regular fertilizing by going the El natural route rather than high-tech. The question is, though, I suspect that even an El natural setup needs additional fertilizing during the initial stages until the fish begin to supply enough nutrients, for the first few weeks, would you say? And maybe keep adding small doses of ferts later on to guarantee plant growth, even though that would break the El natural rules


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## jlm9679 (Jun 26, 2009)

Avi said:


> ... note that CO2 is an important element in this and so, IMO, you should look into providing some form of CO2 even if you would decide to use DIY in the beginning.


Yes I'm coming round to the conclusion that even in a natural aquarium some additional ferts (Tropica TPN+ etc) are needed to boost plant growth, including CO2 in the form of Seachem's Flourish Excel or Easy Life EasyCarbo. This wouldn't be necessary, according to the El natural rules, if the fish load was sufficiently large, but I am reluctant to overload the tank with fish for fear of algae growth. Is there light at the end o f t h e t u n n e l ? ? ? :twitch:


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

jlm9679 said:


> Well that was quite a mothful for a beginner like me to digest... When you say you use Flourite/Eco/SMS/SAS, do you mean you use them together? And what are SMS/SAS? I suppose by Eco you mean Caribsea Eco-Complete?
> 
> Of course I want healthy plants, but I was hoping to avoid heavy regular fertilizing by going the El natural route rather than high-tech. The question is, though, I suspect that even an El natural setup needs additional fertilizing during the initial stages until the fish begin to supply enough nutrients, for the first few weeks, would you say? And maybe keep adding small doses of ferts later on to guarantee plant growth, even though that would break the El natural rules


No I use them in different tanks (about 80 tanks in the fish-room and another 5 in the house).

~

SMS = SoilMaster Select from Lesco.com | SAS = Schultz Aquatic Soil from Home Depot.

~

El Natural is a completely different type of tank setup but having some ferts around for emergencies is never a bad idea and the basic list I gave you before runs about $35 shipped.

The point to El Natural that I found was to use MTS (Mineralized Top Soil) for your substrate that way most of your ferts came from that long term (plus fish poop) and just supplement what's needed by eyeballing the tank with the dry ferts.

- Brad


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

bradac56 said:


> Flourite and Eco-Complete do not supply micro-nutrients there kiln fired clay products and only supply trace Fe you would have to supply NPK+trace in some fashion wither it's El Natrual (fish poop+plants+bio-load) or by the standard methods of water column ferts+root tabs.
> 
> The only enriched substrates that I know of are ADA and MFS.
> 
> - Brad


SO true... I am agree with Brad... I went from Flourite to ADA after 10 years and can tell you even play sand have the sand result as Flourite.


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

I do have some fish tank that I setup for not to have high tech stuff to support it but I only use ADA Aqua soil and with good light for it and would this consider El nature? 

I dont add any thing as the soil are rich enough to bring out the right color of the plants... and I want to keep it easy and simple.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

FYI..............see the attachment>>>

Plants are not able to extract all of the nutrients in the substrates. There are several threads in the Seachem forum on this topic.


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