# Questions about soil tank



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Just set up my 125g about 5-6 days ago. I have 80 lbs of garden topsoil (unfertilized) and about 260lbs of black beauty blasting sand (I may add another 60 lbs later on for looks).

I have noticed that there is a white see-through film/jelly like organism growing on various patches of substrate and a little bit on my locally collected wood. I assume it is bacterial, but I wanted to check if it is normal/will it go away on its own or can I add something to the tank that will eat/remove it?

Also while I am posting here, will MTS be a suitable addition to the tank to keep it from becoming anaerobic? Will they dredge up soil out into the tank?


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Not sure about your white stuff .... probably either bacterial or fungal. Will probably go away after abit though you could try siphoning it off with a peice of air tubing

Most certainly throw some MTS in there - as many as you can spare at the moment ... they are wonderful (if not invaluable) in a natural tank 


Good luck and welcome to the natural side 
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I have about 150-175 coming soon, will this be enough for an initial setup? 

I am really nervous about this soil tank as I have not tried this type of setup before. I used to do all inert substrate water column dosing tanks before this, and this is my main tank now... so it has to look just as good as my other tanks...

Also I noticed that the plants looked a little nitrogen deficient, so I added some nitrogen to the water column to help them. Is this normal for soil tanks when plants are establishing roots? The sand cap is about 5" thick, so I was thinking that the plants haven't reached the soil yet and that’s what the symptoms are from. Not sure though.


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Oh yeah...thatll be plenty 

No reason to be nervous about the setup.... youll find it much much easier than the tanks you are accustom to.. 

Have you tested for NO3? I would bet enough has leeched into the water column from your soil settling in. What you may be seeing is your plants readjusting to much different conditions than they are used to..... being from mid/high-tech tanks. I noticed this when I got plants from you last time... they were all excellent quality but seemed to stagger for afew days in my natural tanks before taking off. (Which everything is now growing beautifully BTW... well except the Downoi and the Rotalla g. ... probably not enough light for the rotalla and the Downoi got ate by something...lol)

Dude... I just re-read your post- 5" of sand over soil is ALOT.... my 30Gal wth onyx sand only has about a 1-1.5 inch cap and I've seen some black roots here and there ... especially when first settling in. I think you may be asking for trouble here. Standard natural setup is 1.5inches of soil and a 1.5 inch inert cap.... How deep is your soil layer?

Unfortunately I dont think the MTS will prevent severe anaerobic conditions as they do not borrow very deep (maybe an inch?)...... I sorry to be the doom-sayer  Hopfully Im wrong...LOL not that me being wrong is a rare case scenerio 

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Nitrates are 0 ppm, phosphates are very low too. The water is slightly tea-colored.

Damn... I was instructed by ~3 people to put a deep cap of ~4-5" of sand on top of the soil... Aghhh. The soil layer is about 1.5"-2" thick. I suppose i could scoop some of the cap off...?

Didn't know MTS wouldn't go that deep... 

I planted most of the stem plants very deep into the substrate, I stopped pushing them under when i felt soil, so the end of the stem should be pretty close to the soil layer. Maybe the roots will grow in and everything will be fine???

Seems I am plagued with problems. Hmmmm you guys might be getting a lot more posts from me on this part of the forum in the near future


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

I would say your best bet is to drain the tank completely and remove the plants... and try to scoop off at least 3" of sand. Now may be a good time to invest in a good sized hand shovel  You can probably get away with a much as a 2" cap but I would still make sure you have plenty of heavy rooting plants. Swords, crypts, etc... Vals maybe. Vals are a good canidate reguardless because they can use bicarbonates as a carb source.

Even if the plants really take off I'm afraid that not enough oxygen will make in through the 5" of sand to the soil layer... without oxygen, this layer will begin anaerobic decomposition and start producing H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide) as a byproduct... which is very toxic to plants and fish... not to mention it smells like rotten eggs. When it rains it pours 'eh?

I'm sorry you are having bad luck... I really think youll enjoy the method once its rolling for you ... If the high maintenance tanks have irked you in the past then this is for you! 

Not tooting my own horn because my tanks are certainly not showcase winners or anything.... but:










I think they look pretty nice ..... especially for no more work than I put into it..... although lately I find myself pruning as much as once a week.... Now that its stable.... Upkeep is Waterchanges when I feel like it and feed the fish once a day or so  (This is with a HIGH fishload ... about 45+ fish in a 30Gal)

Stick to it... itll get better 
Take care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yea, I agree. Diana recommends small gravel at 1 inch deep. I wouldn't go more than an inch with the sand... probably less since it lets less water thru.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

onemyndseye said:


> Not tooting my own horn because my tanks are certainly not showcase winners or anything.... but:
> 
> -Justin
> One Mynds Eye


Beautiful tank! I think you can toot your horn!


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Zapins: You've received good advice from Justin. I too think your best bet is to drain water, dig out as much sand as you can till you ideally have a 1 inch layer. ... I'm wondering if the thick sand layer is preventing nutrients from leaching into your water column, hence the nitrogen deficiency? I don't know who told you to put that much sand over soil, but I'm guessing it wasn't anybody in this forum. I've found that the problem w/ an NPT tank is that you can't get reliable advice from people in clubs, pet-shops, etc as none of them (well, ok, 99%) have never really tried this approach and had good results. That's why I always come here for help... Don't sweat it though, get rid of some sand, resetup the tank and you'll be good to go. I used to brew my own beer and in one of my brewing books, whenever he explained part of the process that was a little tricky or could be worrisome, his motto was: "Relax, have a homebrew!" So, relax, have a beer!

Justin: I know this isn't the thread for this but hot damn! Your tank looks phenomenal! I remember when you were first setting it up, you had some problems, no? Still looked like it had potential, and wow, have you posted an update recently that I missed? If not, you def. should. Oh, and by the way your Eye of Mordor avatar freaks me the hell out!

-ricardo


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Well actually I was from one of the moderators, and Freemann and someone else who I forgot. I will see if I can find the post.

Unfortunately I have already aquascaped my tank to the exact way I want to keep it... It would be a huge pity to ruin the scape. But I really can't have the soil becoming anaerobic. I plan to breed discus in it.

I think if i must rescape, I will just go back to what I know, chuck all the soil/etc and go with an inert substrate. At least I know how to do those... But it would be a pity since everything is already set up... sigh.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I totally understand your reservations, I had them too. However, if you're going to rescape everything, and you still want to try the "El Natural" method, then you might as well just re-do it EN style....

-ricardo


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Yea... thanks :/

By the way, how comparable are the results from a soil tank with the results from a NPK dosed tank? Will plants be as bushy/lush as with WC dosed tanks?

There is a 4x96w 10k light fixture on the tank and it has Co2 injection at about 4 bubbles/sec.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I don't think you can beat direct sunlight and a nutritious substrate for plant growth.


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Flagg:
Actually its an older picture.... Im planning to take some update shots before I prune this weekend  ..... I had alittle problem with Hair algae there at first but I licked it..... And the Red Temple (CO2 Limited Im sure) was failing so I moved it to a smaller tank and started added abit of DIY CO2... we'll see if it recovers.

The Avatar - You cant really see it but inside the "iris" there is a Les Paul guitar ... LOL, My other hobby 

Zappins:
Thats about 3WPG with mild co2... tis really more of a hybrid tank 

Youll see excellent results Im sure  ...

Take at look at the tanks in this thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ral-stye-tanks.html?highlight=Beautiful+Tanks

many of the tanks are hybrid type setups.... some are basic NPT's. Me personally, I wouldnt give up just yet.. The Natural Method is what got me into keeping plants - There was NO WAY I was following the maintenance schedule required for the high-tech tanks (not to mention I wasnt investing the money) .... But El Natural brought me around 

Hang in there.... 
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm... Some of those tanks are appealing. Especially the hybrid pics. 

I suppose that is what this tank was meant to be, a hybrid between low tech and high tech. It seems that the benefits of low maintenance (with low tech) and the health and bushiness of high tech tanks should be possible in this sort of a tank setup.

Just out of curiosity, how long will the discolored water last? And will diatom filters/other water treatments remove the tinted water?


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

It depends on the soil you used really........ Put some carbon in your filter. Thatll take it out 

At 3WPG you can probably count on needing at least a little CO2... But you might can do away with daily dosing all together.... will really depend on your plants.. the fishload of the tank and the soil used in the underlayer .


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Ok I will add some carbon later today.

I was looking at the tank today, and is seems like there is anywhere from 1.5" to 4.5" of sand on top of the soil from front to back. So maybe digging out some sand wont be that hard after all... I will update everyone later tonight once I finish removing the sand.

The soil seems to be really nitrogen deficient. It has potassium though. Before I bought the soil I went to home depot w/ my test kits, poked holes in the soil bags & tested the soil by mixing 3 pinches of it in 16oz of water and then sampling 5mL of the mixture. The phosphates tested 1ppm, and the nitrate was 0ppm. pH was about 6.4. I was really just checking the pH of the soil by doing this since I do not want soil with a very high pH reading.

Maybe the organics just needed more time to dissolve/break down into the water than the phosphates.

To date all I have planned for the tank in terms of fish load is to have 2 adult discus fish in the tank, and any fry they might produce and a few otto cats, maybe 5-10 of them.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Ok... I removed the extra sand. Now the sand depth is mostly 1-1.5" deep. With occasional spots of 3" at the back and under some pieces of wood.

The water is quite cloudy but the plants seem to be doing great! 

My nesaea pedicellata is now growing with straight leaves, instead of wrinkled looking leaves!

Its been about a week now since the tank was set up & no algae yet, so I am hoping it won't grow at all.


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Good to hear!!

As your soil decomposes it will release Amonia that is converted to Nitrate if nothing else  ... let it settle and see what happens 

Good Luck 
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Do you think the tank will have settled enough to allow discus to live in it comfortably in mid september?


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## Tentacles (Jun 25, 2006)

Sorry to interrupt, I have a couple of questions: 

MTS is a tunnelling snail or something? Would blackworms be helpful in the soil?

Also... your home depot doesn't have security cameras?!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Yes, MTS are a kind of snail that burrows during the day, and surfaces during the night when it is dark.

Not sure about blackworms.

Hehe... I am stealthy, they never saw me coming


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So have you tested for ammonia and nitrIte?
Depending on your soil, it may already be ready.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Have not tested for either of those, as my test kits are well over 3 years old. I am not sure if they would produce good results.

I will take a water sample to a LFS and get it checked out though, thanks for the tip.

I do not think I have either ammonia or nitrite as there is NO algae whatsoever growing in the tank. Simply impressed so far, that’s all I have to say about this soil thing.

The nitrates are also very low, mostly what I added to the water column the other day.

It is good to know that I can get discus very soon! I am really excited!!


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## snowy (Jun 6, 2006)

I put a few pinches of blackworms in my tank and the seem to be still there, I recently saw some waving in a patch under where food pellets are dropped in for the fish.

My tank has been set up for three weeks now, with fish in it for two. Every day I've tested for ammonia but only on the first day was any detected, and even then it barely registered, ie. around 0.1 mg/l. Nitrite and Nitrate have never registered a blip.

However today I did some replanting and removed a Nuphar japonica tuber that was starting to rot on the tip, after that the ammonia went up to 0.5mg/l. I did a 90% water change and have added an established cannister filter from another tank as a precautionary measure (I don't want to lose the 24 Corydoras hastatus).

With that in mind, I would be hesitant about adding discus until the tank has been established for at least six weeks, which would be mid september as you anticipate. However it would probably be safer to wait a couple of months. They can be a fickle fish and I would be inclined to wait a little while until the tank is more mature and stable.


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Zappins - Im so glad to hear everything is going well.. I dont know much about discus, other than they are sensitive but I will 2nd what snowy said.... by september everything should be fine - and if not youll know it  let common sense be your guide here..

If you feel antsy about it then give the tank a 50% water change once or twice a week untill then - It will help leech excess nutrients from the soil... but I think it will be fine. Test your water often between now and then to make sute everything is OK..

On blackworms - This came up on Aquabotanics Forum awhile back. I think I remeber blackworms not being true aquatic worms but I could be wrong... That being said - Tubifex worms are an aquatic species and will live most happily in your tank....... I've been planning to try them out but just havnt got around to it 

Check out this thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...108-wet-thumb-forum-tubifex-in-substrate.html

Take care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Yup, tank is doing well so far! I will post some pics in a week or 2, the plants are growing quite fast.

Strangely there is very little nitrate/po4 in the wc now. I did a 50% wc last week after taking out the extra sand to clear it up a bit, and since then no extra chemicals have leached out. This makes sense since the nitrate/phosphate I found was probably due to the nutrients I dosed when the floating plants were floundering. 

So it seems that the substrate does not leech!

I also think it will be best to wait until September to add the fish. But then again... hmmmmmmm the tank does look rather empty, and I do have 2 other established problem free 55g tanks that could be used as a temporary shelter. So... I might order them as soon as I finish planting all the new plants next week.

As for the blackworms/tubifex worms.... yuuck! I'm not usually adverse to creepy crawlies, but I had a bit of a bad young childhood experience with bloodworms in my substrate which has yet to stop creeping me out. So I think I will pass on them and stick with the MTS for now


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Looked at the tank today, the only 2 potential problems are:

The E. triandra/glosso are growing up too high, they look like they aren't getting enough light, so I might add another 110w to the tank in the front since the tank is pretty deep (19").

The other problem seems to be potentially more concerning. I see bubbles leaking out from the substrate every so often. I bumped the tank several times to get them to come up, and smelled them to see if they smelled like bad eggs. They didn't really smell at all, so is this CO2? Or is it a sign of problems to come?


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

My soil tanks have always burped, I wouldn't worry about it unless it smells bad.

Brian


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

As Brian said.... soil tanks do this normally - Its mostly CO2.. Its a good thing  .....a usefull byproduct of the organic matter in the soil layer decomposing 

Cant wait to see the pics  I thought about you today in PetsMart... was admiring a 125G that they had on sale  .... 

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Yea, I will post pics soon, things just need to grow in... 

I am quite happy with the driftwood I found. It was all found, for free! Woulda cost me hundreds if I bought it....

I think I am going to go ahead an order the Discus this week. So they will probably come on friday or monday. Worst comes to worst, I can just put them in one of my 55's.

>.< 275$ here we go... I hope they are worth it...


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