# Mysterious white cloud...



## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I just set up my first NPT today, as an option to the high maintenance regimes and high cost of the "high-tech" route...

I chose a Scott's topsoil as my substrate, which contains soil which Scott's says could be derived from natural sources, peat moss, compost, etc... However I don't believe it actually has any peat moss and/or compost left in it (-I think its already decomposed into soil). My tank is a 5 gallon hex, actually the same tank as in this article.

Everything went great during set up. I had let my soil set out overnight to out-gas any ammonia. I picked up gravel (for top layer) and plants today. When filling the tank, the water was just a teeny bit cloudy, so I drained the water and refilled it. After that, it looked great. I finished setting up, and the water stayed clear... BUT, as soon as I turned on the filter, something started being pulled up through the gravel into the water column. It sounds stupid, but it looked like white smoke!  Now, only a few hours later, the tank is completely cloudy! You couldn't even see the back of the tank if I didn't have red ludwigia back there... WHAT HAPPENED!!?? :frusty:

I will try to post tomorrow with results of water tests: pH, gH, KH, and Ammonia.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, it has gotten worse... Now towards the bottom it has a brown cast to it, tannins, I'm guessing...
Still no picture, sorry, my camera battery is dead.

Results from water tests:
Ammonia - 0 ppm (mg/L)
Carbonate Hardness - 2 dKH (35.8 ppm)
General Hardness - 1 dGH (17.9 ppm)
pH - 6.6

All pretty typical of my tap water except the general hardness is low. Maybe there was peat moss in it?? I already know I'm going to have to redo the tank, I just need to know if I need a new substrate or if I didn't prepare properly... And if the current condition of the tank will threaten my plants health (paid $23 dollars for the lot) if they're left in there for a day or two.


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## criminalhate (Mar 19, 2009)

Why not do a couple more water changes to see if it clears up?


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I was actually about to go try that, as it is so bad now the plants are getting hardly any light at all... It's nearly opaque. YIKES. :faint2:

I'll go do that now, and see if I can't get some pics...


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## drtechno (Mar 31, 2009)

the mysterious white cloud is from lack of oxegen in an acidic water enviroment.

it happened to me once when a co2 rig got out of control.
but I heard from other people have that issue when really soft and acidic water was used to fill a 
100% soil substrate tank.

cut co2 and let the plants adjust the water back
don't bother with the water change bacause the soil chemistry needs to balance
add an airstone for 6-12 hrs this will help with the o2/kh balance 
evacuate any living fish/snails...

the tannins in the soil reaction ( rusty water and white smokie water ) is a redox reaction with the acidic water.

when it goes brown the water are exchanging out cacium for carbolic acid
when it goes white it is taking up clacium and releasing co2


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## criminalhate (Mar 19, 2009)

Also did you rinse the gravel before using it? I know gravel usually has a lot of fine particles in the bags with them, so it may be just the dust from the gravel getting mixed in the water. Before tearing it apart I would do a couple 50% water changes over the next couple of days to see how it turns out. If in a week or two the water hasn't cleared I would think about redoing it. 

Another option is to turn off the filter to see if it starts to settle.


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## criminalhate (Mar 19, 2009)

drtechno said:


> the mysterious white cloud is from lack of oxegen in an acidic water enviroment.
> 
> it happened to me once when a co2 rig got out of control.
> but I heard from other people have that issue when really soft and acidic water was used to fill a
> ...


That's pretty interesting I never know about that.


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## drtechno (Mar 31, 2009)

There is a lot of chemestry going on in a tank in the begining. 
those chemistry classes in college helped, too.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay here is a picture of tank before water change.


Here is a picture after about a 80% to 90% water change.


Here is the white "smoke" lurking below the gravel in the soil.


Sorry they are sideways...



> Also did you rinse the gravel before using it? I know gravel usually has a lot of fine particles in the bags with them, so it may be just the dust from the gravel getting mixed in the water.


I used black gravel, and I did rinse it...



> but I heard from other people have that issue when really soft and acidic water was used to fill a 100% soil substrate tank.


My tap water isn't particularly soft _or_ acidic. Out of tap is is typically pH = 7.2 and dGH = 2.

No snails/fish/etc. yet. Eventual occupants will be two female _Betta splendens_ and a _Brochis splendens_ (Emerald Cory Cat), and possibly some friends... I will throw in an airstone tomorrow. BTW, plants:

_Eleocharis acicularis_ - "Dwarf Hairgrass"
_Hygrophila corymbosa 'Kompact'_ - "Hygrophila Kompact"
_Cryptocoryne lutea_ - "Lutea"
_Ludwigia mullertii_ - "Red Ludwigia"
and what I'm pretty sure is _Ludwigia arcuata_ - "Needle Leaf Ludwigia"


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## drtechno (Mar 31, 2009)

I would not worry about it, It looks like ion exchange with the minerals. add your plants and when the water clears check your water ph. take note of it ,as this ph level is the equalibrium between the water you are adding and the chemistry of the soil. this is the ph your tank will naturally sit at. if you don't add co2, you can select fish that will be comfortable in that water.

if you do co2, you have to use the ph reading at peak co2 concentration. ( at night approx. 4 hours after lights out) watch out, it is way too easy to overstock a tank or even drive all the oxegen out of the water. (plus plants absorb o2 at night)

kh is mportant as that is the stability of the ph. (low total alkalinity = big ph fluctuations)

see: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2002/chemistry.htm for more info on the aspect of water chemistry


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, should I keep doing water changes to help remove the "smoke" from the soil layer, so that I don't have a constant problem? And how long do you think it will be until it clears up? My _Betta splendens_ are living in their old pet store cups for now...

And-
Does this typically happen with all soils or just particular ones? I would like to make my empty 46 gallon bow front a NPT, and I don't want to have to go through a "smoke" phase, as it sits boldly in my living room, right in front of the door where everyone can see it... [smilie=p:
And buying different soil is no big deal.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Airstone in...


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I did not have one in my NPT. I used Home Depot soil slightly doctored.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Okay, should I keep doing water changes to help remove the "smoke" from the soil layer, so that I don't have a constant problem? And how long do you think it will be until it clears up? My _Betta splendens_ are living in their old pet store cups for now...
> 
> And-
> Does this typically happen with all soils or just particular ones? I would like to make my empty 46 gallon bow front a NPT, and I don't want to have to go through a "smoke" phase, as it sits boldly in my living room, right in front of the door where everyone can see it... [smilie=p:
> ...


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks Ms. Walstad... 

I thought something may have just been completely out of wack... 
I have to make a shopping trip anyways, seeing as how I burnt out my bulb by placing the air stone under it. :doh: Stupid thing to do, seeing as how there is no cover over it.
What does everyone think about having a 10 watt CFL (2 wpg)? The tank won't really have any natural light. Or should I find something of a little higher wattage? And Ms. Walstad, you suggest using cool white bulbs, right? Would one of those be preferred over an "aquarium" bulb?

Well, time to find out who carries Miracle Grow Organic Choice...


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I use two 13watt CFLs in my 10 gallon and it has plenty of light.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

*HA!!* 







Found it (at Wal-Mart)... Now I can restart the tank tomorrow.  As soon as I pick a bulb.

Well, 2 x 13 watt is closer to 3 wpg. Although a 5 gallon has a lot less area to illuminate. Then again, my reflector is kinda crappy... What do you think colinsk? My reflector has some kind of mineral deposits on it I'm not sure I can clean. But I could always wrap some foil on it.


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I used 2 13 watt lights because that is what I had. Don't worry too much, the plants will decide what makes them happy. I have some fox tail that chokes the top of the tank and the bottom of the tank gets much less light and the plants down there do fine. I am taking about 12" of foxtail out of my tank every week. It would do just fine with less light.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, I think I'll just try to clean my reflector a little and not worry about it...
One question I have that I was considering starting a thread on maybe everyone could answer:

Should bunched stem plants be un-bunched and each stem be planted separately, or can I leave them bunched (maybe loosen the weight a little) and have them grow just as well? Or is this solely a matter of opinion? I have read you should un-bunch them and also that it is okay not too...


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, just went with the same bulb as I had before, seeing as how I couldn't find another one I thought would fit at Lowes or Wal-Mart... It's a 10 watt Lights of America (made in China :suspiciou) Mini Aquarium Bulb. My _Marisela quadriflora_ was growing well with it, even with plain gravel substrate and no additives, before I decided to switch over to NPT. I'll do the tank after dinner, and I guess I'll try leaving the plants bunched (maybe, not sure really :noidea. Wish me luck...

Oh, yeah, Ms. Walstad's book came in the mail today!! Yay!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Forgotten Path said:


> Should bunched stem plants be un-bunched and each stem be planted separately, or can I leave them bunched (maybe loosen the weight a little) and have them grow just as well? Or is this solely a matter of opinion? I have read you should un-bunch them and also that it is okay not too...


I would unbunch them. If one stem starts to rot, it may quickly poison the other stems (transmit infectious bacteria to them).


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, thanks... I'll leave them un-bunched then, just plant them in a groups about 1/2" to an 1" apart. That I think will be plenty of growing space for the _Ludwigia_ I have. I was just trying to be lazy and plant them all at once. But lazy isn't always better, huh?  I think maybe I'll just break down the tank tonight and rinse it out, and then set up tomorrow... I have an old gerbil cage I use as a tank sometimes, I'll put my plants in there with some fresh water.

Great book, BTW, Ms. Walstad. And thanks for all your help.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, the plants don't seem any worse for wear...  I haven't really seen them in a few days... :-k


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Ah...


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## Erin C. (May 12, 2005)

Your tank looks great now! I had a 5g hex as a NPT and found it to grow like crazy, couldn't keep the darned thing pruned. Good luck!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks! 
Hopefully mine will do as well as yours.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, the slight turbidity present in my tank originally is gone now, replaced with a slight tannic look. And I mean very slight, you have to look through the width of the tank against a white background to notice it. There is a little mold growing on the small pieces of bark mixed in with my gravel layer (which is left over from separating the gravel from the Scott's, couldn't get it out), which I plan on vacuuming out tomorrow. I did a full battery of water tests:

Ammonia - .25 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 0 ppm
Phosphate - 3 ppm
General Hardness - 3d (53.7 ppm)
Carbonate Hardness - 1d (17.9 ppm)
pH - 6.4

I know form Ms. Walstad's book I should get my GH up to 8+. I'm going to use Epsom Salts (MgSO4) and a salt substitute (KCl). What is the easiest to obtain source of CaCO3? Perhaps calcium supplements like the hobbyist used in Ms. Walstad's book? And the CaCO3 will increase my KH as well. I should be aiming for 3 or 4 degrees, right? If I finish with adjusting the GH and still need to raise KH I will use baking soda (NaHCO3). Should I be concerned with the 3 ppm of phosphate? After I get these levels correct and let the plants eat up the ammonia, I'll be ready to add my _Betta splendens_ back in...


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Instead of adding all of that I would consider just adding some crushed coral or crushed oyster shells. They will help buffer your water a little and contribute to both kH and gH. They also will work very slowly so you don't have a precarious balance to watch.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

How much crushed coral do you think I would need to use? Not much for a 5 gallon, I'm sure. I'm just concerned about finding it in small amounts, I don't want to buy a 20 lb bag for a handful!


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I use oyster shell and I went to a feed store and got a lb for $1. It is used for chicken feed. I don't really think how much you use is all that important. When your pH is low it will disolve faster. When you pH is high it will disolve more slowly. I use a handful in my 29 gallon. I notice it disolves and so I have added a little more since the first handful. I still have about .9 lbs!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Cool, I know a couple of places around here that would more than likely have it... Sounds like a better solution than buying a bunch of different things (cheaper too!). I guess than I'm clear to put my fish in since it dissolves slowly (no big pH swings, etc). Thanks.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I checked around, and the only place that sold oyster grit only sold it in 50 lb bags. Way too much. I bought a bag of aragonite at work. Major selling points were K, Mg, Ca, and carbonate being on the ingredients, as well as the label saying it was silica free. I'm going to use maybe half a palm full.


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## dianainOH (Mar 21, 2009)

Forgotten Path, I know you already bought something, but for future reference, and for anyone else who is looking for oyster grit in small quantities, you can usually get it in the small bird supplies at your local pet store. Just look for parakeet/canary grit that says it provides calcium. If you read the ingredients it is just ground oyster shell.
BTW your tank is beautiful!


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

That is very interesting, do you have a brand name? The mineral aragonite should be only CaCO3. It slowly turns into calcite. (in thousands of years.)


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

dianainOH said:


> Forgotten Path, I know you already bought something, but for future reference, and for anyone else who is looking for oyster grit in small quantities, you can usually get it in the small bird supplies at your local pet store. Just look for parakeet/canary grit that says it provides calcium. If you read the ingredients it is just ground oyster shell.
> BTW your tank is beautiful!


Yeah, I realized this afterwards...  Thanks for the compliment! 



colinsk said:


> That is very interesting, do you have a brand name? The mineral aragonite should be only CaCO3. It slowly turns into calcite. (in thousands of years.)


It's CaribSea. It has crushed shells in it. I guess Puka Shells. Same as this, except mine isn't "Seafloor Special Grade Reef Sand", its "Caribbean Puka Shell". It looks like the composition is similar, though. Mine has large pieces of shell in it.

Okay, yesterday:
pH - 6.8
GH - 4d (71.6 ppm)
KH - 2d (35.8 ppm)

I added the aragonite last night.

Then, today:
pH - 7.2
GH - 4d (71.6 ppm)
KH - 3d ~ 4d (53.7 ppm ~ 71.6 ppm)

So I have my KH where I want it. Hasn't done much for GH yet, but I expect the Ca, Mg, K, etc. are going to take longer to enter into solution than CO3 in acidic water. I was going to add fish today, but my ammonia is up to 1 ppm. I'm sure my Bettas could handle it, but I can't put them in there with a clear conscious, so I guess I have to wait.


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I think that will stabilize your pH pretty well. I wonder what all of the salts are in that mixture. Lot's of good traces.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

colinsk said:


> I wonder what all of the salts are in that mixture. Lot's of good traces.


I guess its just locked up in the shells... I figured it would do me pretty good.
I think there is already growth in the tank... the Lutea looks bigger, and the Needle-Leaf Ludwigia looks a lot taller...  Now, if that Dwarf Hairgrass would just start spreading...


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

UPDATE:

Latest water tests:
Ammonia - 1 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
GH - 7d (125.3 ppm)
KH - 5d ~ 6d (89.5 ppm ~ 107.4 ppm)
pH - 7.6 (or >7.6)

I'm liking that GH, but I'm not sure I'm too thrilled about the KH or pH. I'm debating on whether I should take out the aragonite or see if the KH/pH stops going up first. I'm not sure if the pH is 7.6 or higher because that is the top of my test kit (API), and I don't have a high range pH test kit.

Plants have been growing noticeably. The Red Ludwigia is getting taller now, and the Lutea is looking pretty bushy. There aren't any new leaves that I have noticed, but it just looks healthier. I'm still waiting for a difference in the hairgrass, but I know I will have to wait. The roots are currently in rock wool, not soil, as I couldn't get the roots separated from the rock wool.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Hmm. KH is definite 6d now.
I'm going to do a water change tomorrow and see if it will drop the KH/pH. If it does we'll see how fast it goes back up. Hopefully the high KH is from initial dissolving of the aragonite (or dust I didn't get rinsed off). If it doesn't stick at a lower value I will remove the aragonite...

Plants look amazing. The Red Ludwigia stem closest to the front (where the light is) is going crazy with new growth, and is shooting off baby leaves and new stems everywhere. I never thought growing plants like this would be this easy!


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Unless you specifically need softwater I would not worry about 6 kH. There are lots of US water supplies with 10 to 15 kH and they seem to do fine with plants. (Terrible for beer though,)


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I'm not really worried about KH...
My real concern is I don't know if the pH is 7.6 or 8.6...
I went ahead and took out the aragonite today, due to that concern and the fact that my parameters are where I want them.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Okay, did a 20% water change today. Also added in some hornwort that I "stole" from my 20 gallon. Plant growth is still excellent. Which reminds me, to do your first pruning, you wait until your stem plants grow to the top, and then cut them halfway up right? 

I'm checking the pH tomorrow... If it looks good, I'll treat with API Stress Coat + to neutralize any remaining ammonia (not that its real toxic at 7.6 pH ) and put in my fish.

I have snails now, and there is more everyday. Oh well. I also have little bitty worm-like things. They are round (not flatworms); some are free swimming, but most actually live on the glass walls. There are tons... and I get the bad feeling they're snail larvae.  Does anyone have any clue what they might be? I've never encountered anything like this before, and I want to be sure they are not a threat to my fish.


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Look up Planeria in google. That might be your worm. If so, the snails will out compete them and they will die off. You can add snails or shrimp as well.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Is there anything that it could be that would threaten my fish? Or would they just be a tasty snack?


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Ammonia - .25 ppm
Nitrite - .75 ppm
Nitrate - 5 ppm
Phosphate - 5 ppm
GH - 6d (107.4 ppm)
KH - 5d (89.5 ppm)
pH - 7.6 or >7.6

Looking good...
Worms are much less numerous already...
Trying to figure out how to lower pH without dropping GH... Or where to buy a high range pH test kit, we stopped selling them at work.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Wow! Your tank is gorgeous. This is the same tank with all the cloudiness problems?
If so, your patience paid off.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Wow! Your tank is gorgeous. This is the same tank with all the cloudiness problems?
> If so, your patience paid off.


Yup, same tank (minus the Scott's topsoil). Its actually getting near time to prune stuff... Any pointers anyone?


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Everytime I remove too much plant matter from the surface I get a silver dollar size patch of algae that takes a week to go away, so be careful about removing too much.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Sure thing, I'm going to leave most (if not all) of my hornwort in place... Thanks for the tip.

I've heard first pruning you should wait till the plant reaches the surface and then clip it halfway up... Is this true?


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, I pruned my plants a couple of days ago, and they are already showing new growth. I left the Crypt bushy, since it looks so nice. The Kompact is sending up a baby plant (or at least baby leaves), through the gravel.

I have transitioned from female Bettas to an Otto and Harlequin Rasboras. I still honestly don't know if the pH is 6.4 or higher, but I drip acclimated everyone and they seem healthy and happy.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Wow, 

what a transformation! Your tank looks great!

It sounds like whatever that white stuff seeping from the first soil layer WAS, it was a fluke. SO glad you persevered and have such lovely results! And I got a kick out of your adding the Hornwort from your other tank - I'm a firm believer in having Hornwort in there, too *grin*.

Its really looking great!
-Jane


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks Jane.

And Hornwort rocks!!


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