# Old tank syndrome?



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I know many of you have been following my 180g aquarium journal for a while now. The tank has been going strong for almost 30 months. Over the past six months it has developed some algae issues which were never present previously.

About six months ago I started to get a massive case of thread algae, especially in the upper 1/4 of the tank where the light was most intense. After a few weeks of messing around with this I started to notice BBA too - first on older Crinum leaves and then forming in individual balls down around the substrate. I checked my pH probe and found it wasn't working right. After replacing it (and therefore increasing CO2 levels) things got better and the aquarium was "happy" for three or four months.

For the past two months, I've again developed BBA, first as a minor nuisance, and more recently, a quite aggressive invasion. This did coincide with replacing my MH bulbs, which were quite old (2 years). IME, BBA is usually a sign of too little CO2. I've gradually lowered my pH controller to the point that it seems almost ridiculous.

For the first two years of the tank's existence, the pH controller was set to 5.95-6.15. GH has been steady at 4 and KH at 3 per Lamotte testing this whole time. I recently calibrated the KH kit and it was right on.

Over the past 6 months I've been gradually lowering the set-point of the controller. It's now down to 5.60-5.80. A 5dKH drop checker is yellow. Pearling is fine. The fish are definitely showing stress though. The congo tetras stick to the top 1 or 2 inches of the tank and the sidthimunki loaches become almost comatose during the CO2 period. Despite all of this, the BBA continues to get worse and I'm now seeing a resurgence of the thread algae.

Bioload is lower compared to a year ago. My choice in plants has gradually moved to more and more demanding species (toninas, R. macranda, etc.) so it is possible that the quantity of typical "rapid growers" is lower than at any other time. There are still several large stands of Bacopas, Limnophila, and other simple stemmies.

My upkeep routine has not changed. Apparent NO3, PO4, Ca, Mg, and KH levels are unchanged over the past year. 20% WC's are done three times a week with reconstituted RO. I add 1.5 ppm NO3 and 0.6 ppm PO4 three times per week. I'll admit these numbers are on the lean side, but I had no problems with that routine over many, many months. NO3 averages about 10 ppm and PO4 is between 1.0 and 1.5 on the Lamotte kits.

I'm unable to account for the need to push to ever-lower CO2 levels. For the sake of the fish, I clearly need to drop CO2 levels a bit.

There are a few possibilities:

- The pH controller isn't reading correctly, despite the fact that it calibrates to standards just fine.
- My fertilizing regime is off somewhere (insufficient macros, buildup of micros/Fe, or something else)
- There is an excessive buildup of debris, mulm, or other organic material in an ageing substrate.
- As life is getting busier, I am occasionally missing a WC or dose once in a while.

My plan at this point is to hit things with a week or two of high-dose Excel, remove all the affected plants, slightly increase my macro dosing, decrease the MH photoperiod by 30 minutes, and ease off slightly on the CO2.

Other ideas? Does anyone have experience with a similar, older, setup?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

While I don't have any direct proof, I would go with the idea of debris/mulm/etc build up on the substrate. Recently, my somewhat neglected 10 gal got a major clean-up and I ended up vaccumming all the substrate (Eco), which had quite a build up of stuff in it. Before this clean up, I was still doing my water changes/dosing regime but I could see bba, and some thread algae building. A couple of weeks ago, I did the large 'clean-up'. It's been like a different tank for the last 2 weeks. No trace of bba, and the little bit of thread algae that was forming has stopped and basically disappeared. 

I know folks typically say not to gravel vac a planted tank, but I have always done some whenever I uproot/replant a particular area, so the whole tank gets it maybe once or twice during a year.

My 2 cents. I'm curious to see what others suggest.


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## Dan S (Nov 28, 2008)

I agree with Bert, I did the same thing with my 40 gal. which also has (Eco), I thinned out a back corner that was packed with vals. and cleaned out (gravel vac.) the mulm and debris, after that, the little bit of bba and thread algae that I had has been reduced. All that debris just seems to add more nutrients for the algae! I hope this helps and you can provide us all with some updates, yours is one of my favorite threads to follow!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I actually vac'd the right 1/2 of the tank about 2 months ago when I did a pretty major trim. I don't know if that changed anything but it did remove an unbelievable quantity of mulm. In any case, doing that for 1/2 of the tank didn't fix the problem.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Probably the second and third possibilities together. 

It's likely a combination of increased mulm/organics and macro dosing that's too lean (that sounds a bit odd, but I believe it's true). You shouldn't have to have the co2 that high.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

So, I've doubled my KNO3 and KH2PO4 dosing and turned down the pH controller a bit. So far, the fish seem quite a bit happier.

I've removed about half of of the affected foliage, being limited in my efforts by time constraints. Sadly, my large mature Crinum calamistratum was too badly affected to salvage. It had just flowered again too. OTOH, it had again produced three fairly large daughter plants which I was able to save.

There's still a fair bit of thread algae in the upper portions of the stemmies, but overall, I'd say the plants are looking better. BBA is still far too prevalent, especially in lower regions around the substrate.

When I carefully examined the plants, many of them showed signs of N deficiency, especially in their lower regions which had melted away in some instances. I can only assume that over time I had managed to lean my macro dosing to the point of sustainability, but just barely so. I probably got lazy for a few days and forgot to dose. As I recall, this coincided with a rather large trim (which took more than 6 hours) which opened up extra light to previously shaded areas. There was probably an uptick in N consumption precisely when I had neglected to keep up on macro dosing. If all of this does indeed prove to be the point, at least I will have established the actual N and P needs of the tank, which is certainly something worth knowing.

I added 75 ml of Flourish Excel today. I'll do this for a few days and watch the BBA for signs of turning pink. My intent here is to try to speed the recovery along. The real key will be getting back to a more stable condition for the long run. Yes, it's a form of cheating, but manual removal of thread and BBA in a monster tank of this size simply requires more diligence and effort than I have time for at the moment. I don't really suppose that adding a bit more of the macros will have any downside. It's still quite lean compared to what many people are doing. If I keep to the current schedule, I'll still only be adding 9 ppm of NO3 and 3 ppm of PO4 per week.

When I get a few minutes, I plan to vacuum out the left half of the tank. That chore might have to wait for the weekend.


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## JERP (Feb 4, 2003)

Sometimes in a real dense tank, you can have cold spots, or even anaerobic spots in the aquarium.

I once stuck my fingers into a 1" thick layer of mulm at the back of my tank and it was freezing cold. It smelled sulfurous when I removed it. I thinned out the plants so water current gets through and sucked out the mulm and the algae in the tank dropped considerably. My stem plants were much healthier as well, there was no stem rot after I started doing that. I've found that water flow has much more to do with keeping the lower portion of a stem plant healthy than access to light.

Do you have a glass lid? Clean it regularly. The deposits from condensation can cut down a lot of light.

You can kick up a tremendous amount of garbage (organics) into the water when you gravel vac. I try not to touch the gravel with the vac. I just skim what's on the top. When I do a deep gravel vac, I do a second big water change the next day.

There's something else I'm missing but can't think of it now.


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## 1aqumfish (Jul 28, 2008)

Check your filters and water flow, hoses over time become clogged I have found some gravel in a filter disconnect that stopped a mag 350's flow causing problems. Nutrients, light and water movement all effect algae.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Nope, no glass lid thankfully. It's a partially enclosed open top and the lights are up 10-12" from the water.

The filters are fine. They get regularly changed every 3 months. The closed-loop system might be another story. I probably need to disassemble it for a good cleaning. Ugggh. That's a chore that I've been putting off. Maybe I'll just get one of those brushes on a long wire. I'll still have to take down the CO2 reactor though.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

The same thing happened in my 55g that has been set up for 5 or 6 years now. Around the 3 to 4 year mark I had awful BBA and thread algae (but the BBA was just horrific). I also gunned my CO2 until the water bubbled like soda (after removing the fish). The pH was 4.8 or so constantly and it didn't seem to improve things.

I think it was mulm build up that was accumulating in my huge java fern mats (80% of the tank was planted with java fern on the wood). So I ripped it all out and cleaned the tank. I planted anubias nana petite instead since it is easier to clean and the algae problems have gone away.

I wonder if this is a common problem with old tanks? Usually I don't think people keep the same design set up for more than a year or two from what I have seen.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Well it sounds like you have a handle on things now. What a huge job! Your tank has been beautiful. Thank goodness for Excell. While it's not the answer to the problem it can sure help clean up the mess!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Tex Gal said:


> Well it sounds like you have a handle on things now.


That's probably a bit of an exaggeration. The whole thing is still not at all visually pleasing. That's the thing with a 180g planted tank. When it looks nice, it's breathtaking. When it looks bad, it's like having a dead elephant in the living room.

I did a big cleanup trim yesterday. I uprooted a disintegrating Blyxa aubertii and noticed a rather sulphurous smell from the roots. I assume that's not good. There is lots of healthy new growth in places but many of the stemmies look like they went through a real bad spell. The lowest portions are ok, middle portions of the plants have a dead meristem, and the upper regions show healthy growth again. Does that sound like a nitrogen shortage to anyone else?

The more I think about it, the more it seems like I found the lower limit of macro dosing and stepped a bit too far over the edge. I don't know what to make of the sulphur smell. Clearly there are some anaerobic regions. That particular area is one that I deeply vacuumed within the last few weeks though. Strange.

I've been adding some Flourish Excel, but so far it doesn't look like it's affected the BBA much. The amanos, loaches, and P. t. 'Moliwe' fry look perfectly fine. I've added:

1/08/09: 70ml
1/10/09: 90ml
1/12/09: 90ml

Maybe I should just be patient, but I was hoping to see pink BBA.

I've got to take the bull by the horns and take apart the closed loop. I'm guessing my flow through there is much lower than it once was, which would also make CO2 distribution spotty.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

The sulfur smell is definitely not good, but I'm not sure how much of a factor it actually is. The only time I had that in a tank was a 10 gallon which did not have a particularly deep substrate. There was a huge mass of C. wendtii in it, covered about half the tank, and when I pulled it out, the smell hit me. I did a major water change, and luckily didn't lose any livestock in the deal.



> That's the thing with a 180g planted tank. When it looks nice, it's breathtaking. When it looks bad, it's like having a dead elephant in the living room.


LOL, I can imagine.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

If you think about it. Over time every variable in a tank could be maintained or should we say 'reset' over time. The water can be changed, the filter cleaned, ferts dosed and co2 levels kept in their proper range. There is only one varible that really can't be 'reset' like this - the substrate. It builds and builds and builds. Even if you gravel wash some of it, you still have much more organic decay than you had in the first year or so. This reaches a point were the organic load can't be handled by the plants and/or biofilter. To add to this most of us will miss more water changes when the tank ages as well as leaving dirty pipes to further spew organics around our high-light tanks. A perfect place for algae to spread. I really wouldn't look to the dosing. I personally believe plants will do fine with quite a large range of dosing assuming the light and co2 is there. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

If you can try to inject the Excel directly onto areas of heavy BBA growth while dosing, it will be much more effective IME. Dosing the water column with the same ratio you are using did nothing to negatively affect the algae in my tank.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, thanks for the comments. I'm quite determined to keep this tank going over the long haul. That was a goal from the beginning. Maybe it's possible and maybe it isn't. We'll find out.

I really don't think this substrate issue should be insurmountable though. A good deep vac should be as effective as a complete tear-down.

Let's see how it plays out.

My plan at present is to continue with what should be a solid fert plan, manual removal as possible, and Excel dosing to hopefully get me over the hump.

The vast majority of BBA has been manually removed. What remains will require loads of time to eradicate if the Excel doesn't work.


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

this thread is useful I have been considering a slow substrate change/mix in my tank uproot and replant some plants going section by section. My instinct says it is needed.


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## JERP (Feb 4, 2003)

I remembered the last thing I was going to mention. 

Substrates can and will get compacted over time. Some people use burrowing Malaysian Trumpet snails (MTS) to alleviate this, or some other kind of digging fish to loosen up the substrate. Compaction leads to all kinds of problems, and ends with root death. A light gravel vac can help with this, but you'll need to be careful about kicking nasties into the water column.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, I've never had MTS's as far as I know. Since getting my sidthimunki loaches only the larger snails have survived. I suppose I could get some to keep things stirred up a bit.


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

I feel your pain and wish I could help. I'm also dealing with a 2+ yr old tank that decided to grow multiple types of algae out of no where. GDA, Small BBA tufts which are steadily accumulating especially on some freshly added manzanita, and thread algae (two types at separate times, both of which I believed to be spiro, one tougher and easy to remove, now slimy and fragile to the touch, both look and grow the same). I've been blasting CO2 into the tank to the point of a few close calls with fish, and I'll admit I've probably been fiddling with it more than I should, trying to find the happy medium (which is a real pain with the Fabco NV, IME). I tried to maintain full dosing for awhile but it only got worse, uptake slowed and ferts built up. It's been a long fight so far, I've decided on many culprits and made so many changes over time that I can't say it isn't my own fault at this point. I'm sure I have a longer list than you of possible causes due to issues that arose from malfunctions and my own impatience/ inconstancy. All I can say is best of luck and hope it's all under control before you lose patience and start over.

Oh, I have a bucket of extra MTS someone sent me, let me know if you want some. they're large and have very tough shells, some are old guys and are even missing parts of the shell but still trucking. I found some living in a val root base that was as deep as 5 or 6" into the sub.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Ugggh.

No progress to report. Thread algae worsening by the day, BBA showing no signs whatsoever of distress, and now a patch of BGA starting up on the substrate.

I can see a weekend-long "restart" in my future. What fun it will be with a tank full of unhealthy plants and a 100 fish in need of a home to start with.

As far as I can tell, Excel has done absolutely nothing, not even at 100ml every other day and 36ml on off days.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

So so sorry Bryce!! It makes me ill just thinking about it. Can't believe that the vacuuming of each part of the substrate did nothing. I guess this is a lesson for us all.

Get out the rubbermaid containers and keep your hoses handy! If I were close, I'd help.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The thing that makes me mad is that I don't understand it. This tank was "dialed-in" for well over a year and then started to fluctuate in ways that I haven't been able to understand. The "usual fixes" don't seem to be doing the trick. Probably the real issue is something simple that I've just overlooked....... Maybe I mixed up a batch of stock ferts incorrectly or something. Who knows.....


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Are you sure the substrate is the root cause of this outbreak? Could it also be due to lack of sufficient water flow? Honestly, 2x2217's on a 180G is a little on the low side.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm not at all sure that it's the substrate. Actually, my gut says it's probably something else. This might be nothing more than establishing a very lean fert dosing schedule that worked just fine, until life got busy and I slacked off a bit on the routine for a few weeks.

One interesting obeservation is that many of the plants show stem rot at the growth region that coincides with my big substrate upset/vacuum two or three weeks ago. Many of the more delicate species have responded by shedding their growing tops or by simply rotting away. That particular thing is a new one for me. Even with previous algae issues I've never had a case of stem rot like this before. I've seen similar things in my tanks with less intesnse lighting and it always coresponded with a sudden nitrogen shortage. If that's the case, my experience says the plants should rebound in a couple of weeks.

Like I said, I seem to be chasing my tail a bit, coming up with a new theory every ten minutes. 

My gut also says "go back to basics". Take care of the plants and the whole thing will come around. It has many times before. This MH/T5 combo lighting requires constant diligence.

BTW, the aquarium has two Eheim 2217's in addition to an Eheim 1260 pump on a closed loop. The closed loop system is maybe a bit plugged up since it hasn't been cleaned in two years, but it still moves quite a bit of water.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm... thats funny... I also hadn't cleaned my canister in years when I had a similar problem. Maybe try cleaning the gunk out of them? They might be leaching ferts into the water.

You are actually quite lucky. You have been presented with a situation where you can experiment and find out what is wrong. If anyone wanted to do some tests and see what causes algae in old tanks, they would need to wait years for it to get to that point. I regret tearing my tank down because I didn't end up learning what the problem was.

Please don't scrap the tank just yet. If only to satisfy my/our burning curiosity! You must have other tanks to enjoy in the mean time


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I take down an alternate cansiter for cleaning every 2 months. There usually isn't that much debris in them, especially when compared to the single 2215 that is on my 46g tank. One is a few weeks away from a change. If I get a minute this weekend I'll take it down just to see how bad it is.

OTOH, a total breakdown would allow me to do a few major things to make life easier. I've been wanting to re-do some of the closed loop to get the main pump moved into the utility room behind the wall. That'd also let me use a bigger pump without worry of noise in the TV room. The Eheim 1260 isn't that bad, but you can hear it. I'm also toying with an autodoser and an automatic waterchange system.

I'd also be able to get back to some hardscape, which I've totally removed at this point. I'm thinking some major rockwork would be interesting and would certainly enhance the current scape which is a bit boring.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Aw 

I'm also doing some rockwork with my 90g, I'm not sure I really like what I see so far. It sort of looks like rock cliffs. I'm also worried the rock will fall over and crack something.

What about your tank? How much rock are you planning to use, and how will you arrange it?


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Why not install a RFUG? It should prevent anaerobic spots from developing again and suspend the decaying debris to be filtered out.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

That is an intersting idea. I would be a great way to distribute return water from the closed-loop too. If I did it, I'd probably abandon the Eheim pump for something that would move far more water. It could go in the utility room so even pump noise wouldn't be an issue. I worry about root entanglement issues though. Stemmies wouldn't be a big deal but my giant Crinums, Lagenandras, and crypts would be a pain.

I'm really tempted to drill the thing to turn it into more of a reef-ready type system too. An overflow drain would make automated WC's easy. A surface skimmer would help tons too. This tank is continually getting a bad surface scum.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

BryceM said:


> That is an intersting idea. I would be a great way to distribute return water from the closed-loop too. If I did it, I'd probably abandon the Eheim pump for something that would move far more water. It could go in the utility room so even pump noise wouldn't be an issue. I worry about root entanglement issues though. Stemmies wouldn't be a big deal but my giant Crinums, Lagenandras, and crypts would be a pain.
> 
> I'm really tempted to drill the thing to turn it into more of a reef-ready type system too. An overflow drain would make automated WC's easy. A surface skimmer would help tons too. This tank is continually getting a bad surface scum.


I don't believe the roots would entangle themselves around the PVC the same way they do with heating cables. I'd assume undergravel water flow actually reduce the need for the plants to grow longer roots since the nutrients would be flowing towards them?

Once aquariums hit the 180G+ range a sump is wise investment, IMO, and is actually much easier than having every piece of equipment on a closed-loop. However, I'd assume the bottom pane is tempered which means a traditional overflow is out of the question. A horizontal overflow would work even better and is much quieter in general.


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## intothenew (Aug 1, 2008)

I would like to comment on what I consider two very important points that have been brought up earlier.

*Flatulence*

An aged tank of course has this tendency. I have, as a maintenance issue, poked around in the substrate just before water changes. Any gas release commands more investigation, otherwise it is a simple preventative move. Just smack it around a little, I use a plastic drink stir. Please, don't let the Trumpet Snail Union know about this.

*Chapped Lips*

Evaporation, a slow and continuous enemy. It's effects are much worse this time of year due to drier air and Martha twisting the knob a bit farther clock-wise. An open top tank only adds to this issue. I think it prudent to increase frequency and/or volume of water changes with age as well as seasonally, this in an effort to reduce concentration increases in...........who knows what.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Hehe. Yes, for sure if I did it again I'd go with a drilled tank. I toyed with the idea way back when, but ended up going with the plain & simple setup due to availability issues.

I've been thinking about three options:

1) Maintain the status quo, monkeying around until the ship rights itself. It probably will eventually. I am finally noticing that no new BBA is forming and some of the plants are showing healthy new growth and better coloration. Thread algae is still raging.

2) Drill this tank and set up a skimmer-type, wall-to-wall overflow box and a return just above the substrate level. I've got an idea for an overflow box that should work beautifully without being too noisy or causing too much CO2 loss. I'm just not sure how visually unobtrusive it would be. The bottom is tempered, but the back isn't. The whole drilling procedure worries me a bit. If I mess it up it's going to take several weeks to get a new tank of this size here in rural la-la land.

3) Chicken out and buy a reef ready tank of the same dimensions. This is of course more expensive, but it would give me a chance to get better quality glass in the front panel. I would have the problem of what to do with the old one. I have no particular desire to have two tanks of this size. I also have plenty of other things to be spending $$ on at the moment.

With either of the last two options I'd want to arrange for automatic waterchanges and fert pumps. Truth be told, it's probably a lack of consistency that brought on my current ills.

I'm not sure I want to deal with a sump but that's probably because I have no experience with them.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Bryce I have successfully changed substrate on some tanks without removing fish or doing anything drastic. In a tank your size it would take a while but it's definitely doable. I would move all the plants out of maybe a third of the tank and replant them on the other side (or place in bucket). Take 3/4" filter hose and just start sucking substrate and water out of the tank. Replace with new substrate (I think you have Eco) by taking a large container and get as low as you can and spread it around. Take out some more water to suck out some of the haze. You can do this over a few weeks until the entire substrate (or most of it) has been refreshed. The key is to take out water ever time you replace substrate.

BTW I do agree with Raul about the sump. It's very easy to take care of and it gives you alot of options. I also think the co2 loss is way over blown and there are many ways to prevent this.


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## JERP (Feb 4, 2003)

Bryce,
Please keep in mind that even in high tech tanks, part of having a beautiful aquarium requires lots of patience. Now that the tank is firmly established, the honeymoon phase is over. No matter what your maintenance schedule is, there will be parameters that the tank just needs to work out for itself. I think the worst thing you can do is start making drastic changes. Focus on keeping the plants healthy, the algae will work itself out. I vote for option 1.

I've had tanks set up for years without algae problems. I have to admit that I've developed a taste for having a certain amount of algae, but the furry stuff is not welcome.

The only good reason to breakdown a tank is to have fun, especially if cobra commander and a sledgehammer are involved.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

JERP said:


> I think the worst thing you can do is start making drastic changes. Focus on keeping the plants healthy, the algae will work itself out.


Yeah, this is in line with my own thoughts. I fully expect the thing to come around once I've kept conditions acceptable and constant for a few weeks. It seems to take around 2-3 weeks for stressed plant to recover IME. Consistency is absolutely key, and an improved ability to do that through automation would be the only reason I'd consider a total breakdown. I would expect a complete substrate redo to land me back in the realm of new tank syndrome with its inherent period of instability.

Monster tanks really are different beasts. I can have a 46g or even a 75g tank up and running in a few hours. A breakdown of this thing would create a mess of epic proportions and consume the better part of several days, especially if I get started on major plumbing changes.

House,

The only way I'd even consider a substrate replacement is if I was convinced that somehow that was the source of the problem. The one thing that seems a bit mysterious is the apparent gradual need to keep lowering the pH set-point to keep algae in check. Acidification of aging tanks is a well-known phenomenon, but I would have expected to reach an equilibrium condition far sooner than two years. By the CO2 chart I should be somewhere between Perrier and pure liquid CO2  but I've never put much stock in that thing.

I can live with a bit of algae since it can add a certain natural feel to a tank, but thick, cottony thread algae and widespread BBA are two I just can't tolerate.

As this thread has progressed I've become more and more convinced that the onset of my current problems wasn't due to a lack of CO2, but more likely slacking off on fert dosing that was a little too close to the lean side. I'm also convinced that more flow would help. The worst algae issues at present are in areas where flow is essentialy non-existent.

Replacing my Ehiem pump with something a little more robust would be pretty straightforward and would only take a bit of work. It would also have the added benefit of moving the noise out of the TV room.

About a sump - Without drilling the thing or moving to a reef-ready setup, I'm not sure how it would help. My heaters are already in-line with the Eheims. I'd still need a way to dissolve CO2 and the in-line reactor seems to work as well as anything for a tank of this size. I could get the temp probe and the pH probe out of the tank but they're hardly noticeable. I'd still need outlet and return plumbing.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

BryceM said:


> Acidification of aging tanks is a well-known phenomenon


Can you explain what you meant by this a bit more? Possibly give some links too (if you can think of any offhand)? I am interested in reading more about this since I've got a hunch about a link between this and certain plant growth characteristics.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

An update:

The tank is starting to come around.... I think. I'm seeing better and more colorful growth, and formation of new BBA has at least stopped. It now looks more and more like a sudden stressor put the plants totally off their game. Maybe it was a NO3 shortage, maybe a huge ammonia spike, who knows?

I've been totally religious about dosing and WC's. It seems to be helping. It also seems that my NO3O4 ratio was off. NO3 was around 10 and PO4 was well over 2 or 3. Once I stopped dosing PO4 for a few days the hair algae dropped way off.

Things aren't there yet, but it's hopefully on the rebound. I think in the future I'll keep my NO3 levels a bit higher. That should provide a bit more wiggle room in the event of a few missed WC's.

It does look like I killed off all of my R. 'Vietnam' and probably all of my L. i. i. v. 'Cuba'. It's funny that P. stellatus 'Wide Leaf', L. senagalensis, Tonina fluv. and R. macranda are doing just fine.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

It's always good to hear other comments, but ultimately the best decision to rectify something amiss is to go with your gut, since your the one observating the tank everyday, in this case a few years. I actually thought at one point you were set on the substrate as the cause since you observed compacting and anaerboic conditions. It's actually interesting because I'm pretty sure eco-complete stresses the different grain sizes in it's product to keep the substrate oxygen rich. Sort of in the same way ADA states that aquasoil will last longer if you use powersand with it.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, I'm still not totally convinced that the buildup of mulm in the substrate isn't part of the problem. I'm also seeing a tendency for algae (BBA & thread) to persist in areas that have relatively poor circulation. The suggestion to use a reverse-flow undergravel return isn't a bad one. That would allow for better suspension of debris that the filters could then remove.

The tank does still require higher CO2 levels than a year ago to keep it happy. That part of the issue, I think, must have something to do with acidification, mulm buildup, anaerobic zones, or something of the sort.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

So here we are about a month out from my initial post. Things are much, much better in the tank now. I'm fairly certain now that the tank was only responding to what was probably a fair amount of neglect on my part. To put it succinctly, this tank has a relatively high light level and is full of demanding species. When it's on course, it does tremendously well. When life gets busy and I neglect the WC's and dosing, the result is predictable.

To correct the problem I gave the plants a tremendous hack job, removing anything that looked unhealthy or compromised. At times this was painful. My prize Crinum calamistratum was too far gone to save. It had just flowered again too. Some of my crypts lost 2/3 of their leaves. The tank is so big that I did this in stages, from right to left. The whole job took a couple of weekends.

I also became retentive about fert dosing and WC's. Over two years time I gradually got into bad habits with this. The tank finally the limit of what it could tollerate without problems. I'm almost positive I let nitrogen levels fall too low. I've seen this exact pattern of dieoff and stem breakdown before in my smaller tanks. I also developed a small patch of BGA, something I'd never seen in this tank before.

New growth now is healthy and tremendously more colorful. Hair algae is almost gone. BBA is in full retreat, meaning I'm still physcially removing it but no new growth is noticable.

I've been doing some flow estimates in my closed-loop system and it's apparent that flow rates are considerably lower than when the sytem was new. I anticipated this, but I still don't have a great solution. The piping system and DIY spraybar are probably full of gunk. I bulit it so it is modular, with unions in strategic places, but braking it down and cleaning it will require several hours work. Doing this once every two years isn't asking much though.

Over the past couple of weeks I've actually raised the setpoint of my pH controller. The plants are growing fine and the fish seem happier. They've rewarded me with a new group of P. t. 'Moliwe' fry. Those little fish sure are great parents.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

It's good to hear things are on the up-swing, and new babies to boot!! Good luck with cleaning the spraybar/etc... that can't be much fun. But, like you said, once every couple years isn't so bad.

-Dave


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Glad to hear what you believe the problem to be. I also have a large spray bar at the back of the tank. Unfortunately I believe mine is all glued together, so any cleaning will have to result in a new build. Good thing PVC is cheap. I guess I could also hook a pressure washer thingy up to it and blow it out like they do a sprinkler system but that's probably more trouble than making a new one.

This is a good lesson for the rest of us. Reminds me of the saying "Familiarity breeds comtempt."


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Hmmmm. That's a great idea. Just making a new spraybar might even be easier than cleaning out the old one. $20 or $30 in parts isn't that big of a deal.


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## JERP (Feb 4, 2003)

If you build a new piping system, add some clean out junctions that can fit a pipe brush. Don't forget to buy the pipe brush first, so you know how far it'll reach into the piping.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

That's also a great idea. It would be simple to add in some capped Y's in strategic places.

I'm also considering modifying the return spraybar to be along the top of the back wall instead of at the bottom. I think it would be less visible and would provide a small increase in real estate available for planting at the back of the tank.

The flow pattern that I have now tends to deposit debris at the front of the tank in the low foreground plants.

Hmmm.

All of this gives me something to think about.

Tinkering is 1/2 the fun you know.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

BryceM said:


> Tinkering is 1/2 the fun you know.


Too true  and 1/2 the cost... or is it 2x the cost?


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## JERP (Feb 4, 2003)

Fluval/Hagen has a 36" and a 48" hose brush. I just used something like this on my tank, and the difference in flow is unbelievable. My tank has bulkheads so I don't need a "Y". Just make sure you drain the hose into a bucket. I let it spit into the tank and it wasn't pretty. My tank will probably be an algae covered mess once the dust clears.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/214925/product.web


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