# Using RO water to combat high pH



## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

I have been using 50% RO during water changes to combat the high pH (9.2-9.5) of my city tap water. I know it sounds crazy, but its true...check out the water quality report http://www.city.ames.ia.us/waterweb/Water_Plant/water_quality.htm. The RO water brings this pH down to decent levels which I can then further lower with my pressurized co2. And so my question... is all the work of obtaining RO water worth the effort? Although I can obtain RO water easily from the univeristy I work at, it is still a lot of work to haul around 25 gallons of water each week. My thoughts are that if i switch to using 100% tap water, I will introduce a large pH swing every time I do a 50% water change(I'm using EI). I should also note that with my CO2 the pH ends up being 6.8 or so. Would the pH also have a high swing over night when the CO2 shuts off? Would I be able to get good C02 levels EASILY with a tap pH of 9.5? Let me know your thoughts on this issue. 
Thanks,
Matt


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Try the old low tech method of lowering PH. Add one or two oak leaves to your pre-mix water
(never add it to the tank!) the PH swing should be pretty huge if you have allot of buffering
but in pre-mix it shouldn't matter. Your going to have to experiment a bit on how many and
how long on the oak leaves but it will work.

It would be easier to use a large trash can or tub to pre-mix the tap water down to your
6.8ph target and heat it before adding it to the tank than to hall RO water around by the 
bucket.

And yes you really, really don't want to have large PH swings in your tank low or high PH
doesn't hurt fish and nearly any healthy fish will tolerate it one way or the other but large
swings will kill nearly anything.

- Brad


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Sounds interesting, but currently the ground is covered in ice and snow. I would be hard pressed to find an oak leaf this time of year What is it about an oak leaf that lowers pH. I have never heard of this method??? Has anyone else tried this.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Oak leaves do the same trick as peat moss by releasing tannic acid that will lower
the PH the leaves are easier to come by and cost less (free) than moss and you
can stock pile them in the fall. You would want to use old dead leaves that's
fallen to the ground instead of green leaves as they have to many minerals built
up that will stop the reaction.

All of this depends on your tap waters alkalinity level to buffer the acid. If it's to
hard it might not work without allot of leaves/moss and then you'd have to filter
the black water down.

RO is the best way to go but it's expensive and takes allot of water but for big
tanks that's the way to go for smaller tanks oak leaves work well.

- Brad


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## mikeb210 (Jan 8, 2008)

IMO you should use RO water. I run pure RO in all of my tanks and while it does produce a good bit of waste water, I doubt there is any better source of water for a tank, be it fresh or salt water. You can start with near perfect water and then adjust from there.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'd find some solution that didn't involve hauling 25 gallons of water every week. You'll tire of that pretty quickly and you'll find yourself doing fewer and fewer WC's.

Do you know the GH and KH of your tap water? I'd be surprised if it was actually high enough to generate the pH levels that you are seeing. Often, city water with a funky high pH like this will settle down to a more reasonable level if you aerate it or let it sit out for a day or two. If it comes down to a more normal range you can use it without trouble.

RO units are easy enough, but you'll need a storage reservoir and a place to put the thing. You'll also need to be careful to avoid nutrient deficiencies.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Would anyone strongly urge against adding 100% tap to the planted tank during 50% water change? I currently do this in my cichlid tank without any problems. The pH in the cichlid tank is about 7.4, so not as low as the planted tank (which again is about 6.8 and the tap is 9.5). If I have enough buffers in my water would I be safe? I add baking soda to bring planted tank to keep the KH up to about 5 or 6.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

I just put 5 gallons of tap water in a bucket with a air stone for an hour and the pH has already went from >8.6 down to 7.8 or so. I think I would have no problem adding this water to my tank. Still setting up seven 5 gallon pails with air stones each week is a lot of work. I would really like to just use my python.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

It looks to me like figuring out why the tap water has such a high pH is the first thing to do. Water companies typically add phosphates to the water to keep the pH above 7 and avoid erosion of copper piping, but a pH above 9 is weird. What do you test it with?


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## oblongshrimp (Aug 8, 2006)

I think if your water pH goes down after its in your tank your fine. If your plants and fish are looking ok then I wouldn't worry about it.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

I have a red sea test kit that goes up to 8.6 and the water quality report from the city I linked in the first post shows the pH of city water to be 9.5. I have also tested the water at the university with a pH meter (always reads above 9). 

I might just tray to add the tap water directly to the tank. I hope It'll be Ok. It seems to drop fairly quickly after it sits in a aerated bucket for an hour or two.


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## mikeb210 (Jan 8, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> Would anyone strongly urge against adding 100% tap to the planted tank during 50% water change?


Chlorine? Chloramine? Are these in use in your area? These and others(trihalomethanes) are pretty common in city water supplies and are great for shortening the life of your fish. They'll look fine for a while, but its doing tremendous damage inside. Adding lots of extras is also not as reliable as using natural "equipment" such as aragonite to buffer kH or peat to lower pH. These are more consistent IMO, in that they are not rapid change (i.e. adding some sort of pH+ or other chemical water treatments.) If you have space for it, I would go with a container of RO water as source water. I have a 44 gallon "Brute" trash can that I fill up each week for my water changes. It works great and I honestly believe that the fish will be better for it.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

I use water conditioners to remove chlorine and chloramines in my water supply (I assume mostly everyone else is using these too??). mikeb210 what do you mean by "adding lots of extras"? Are you saying there are problems using baking soda to raise the KH? I also don't want to mess with peat to control the pH of my tap water. That sounds like a big mess IMO. I am all about simplicity! As I have already said, I can easily obtain RO water from the university, but it is hauling 25 gallons of water every week that I get tired of. I also don't want to spend $150 dollars on an RO unit and I don't have room in my small apartment for a big trash can just to hold water.

Could someone please tell me if they have had bad things happen when doing 50% water changes with high pH (around 9) water in an aquarium with a pH of ~6.8 (lowered by CO2). Or am I just making this a much bigger issue than what it really is?


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

Usually, people who don't want to haul water around or buy an RO to soften their water stick with hard water setups, cichlid tanks etc. If you want a softwater tank than the decision is yours. 

There's nothing wrong with adding baking soda to RO, the store bought stuff is just overpriced bicarb. The store bought Ph down or target solutions have buffers and acids to counteract each other, not a good way to keep your tank very stable, you don't need that anyway if you have access to RO.

I use zeroTDS RO/DI buffered with a 1/4tsp baking soda per 5gl RO/DI and 1tsp dry GH booster from Tom Barr, it's probably mainly calcium chloride and epsom salt. Any cheap GH booster w/ Ca and Mg will work for some GH. I end up with ~3dKH and ~4dGH, same as my tap which I also add on occasion when I don't have enough RO/DI stored. I don't even test the pH because as you've seen there are other factors involved in that such as aeration and the precipitation of the treatment plant's additives, while we're only concerned with the hardness. The RO/DI unit has made things a lot easier for me since lugging bottles around, I keep two 5gl bottles full throughout the week and fill two 5gl buckets the night before my 20gl change. In my case, if I use 100% tap, I can get a mini cycle from the nitrites and ammonia in the tapwater, have even killed tetras and frayed betta fins that way, so it's not a hardness issue for me but the solution is the same.

You were concerned with the pH swing because of the obvious precipitating additives, and difference of O2 and acid concentrations, but if the same KH, GH and temp are going into the tank then everything is fine with the fish IME. Just make sure when you mix, to target the same KH and GH every week and throw the pH reagent back in the box and forget about it.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK, this conversation is getting complicated pretty quickly.

Personally, I'd recommend that you first figure out what sort of water comes out of your tap. Let it sit for a few days and check the pH. As long as it comes down to a reasonable level, go ahead and use it. Most of the additives that cities put in water are innocent enough. Chlorine and chloramines must be neutralized with a good water conditioner such as Seachem Prime. 100s of other conditioners on the market work perfectly well too.

95% of the time the water from your tap will work perfectly well for plants and fish. Repeat, 95% of the time the water from your tap will work perfectly well for plants and fish. If (and only if) you decide that your water is too hard for your purposes (breeding tetras, keeping toninas, etc) then using RO might be smart. If you decide to go with RO, there are dozens of methods for "reconstituting" the water to replace calcium, magnesium, carbonates, nitrates, phosphates, potassium, etc. Most of the time RO is more trouble than it's worth.

My advice is to use the water from your tap, use a good conditioner, and figure out what grows well in that sort of water. It's almost always better in the long run.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes guaic boy, this conversation is getting complicated quickly. Many people are discussing things I am not at all concerned about. I never said I was using RO water to lower my hardenss. As the first sentence in this thread says "I HAVE been using 50% RO during water changes to combat the high pH (9.2-9.5) of my city tap water".



jaidexl said:


> You were concerned with the pH swing because of the obvious precipitating additives, and difference of O2 and acid concentrations, but if the same KH, GH and temp are going into the tank then everything is fine with the fish IME.


I am concerned about a pH swing when I *switch from using 50/50 RO and Tap during water changes to 100% tap water.* Not because of precipitating additives, O2 and acid differances. *Am I correct that adding 9.5ph tap to a aquarium with a pH of 6.8 will cause a large pH swing (This is the only point this thread was intented to discuss!)? *

I have found that if the tap water sits for an hour with an airstone the pH drops to about 7.6. I do not, however; want to run an airstone in 7 pails to let the pH drop (or let it sit for a few days) before I add it to my tank. I just want to add the water right to the tank from the faucet.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, there is some debate about the effect of pH on fish. My personal opinion is that you'll probably be just fine to add straight tapwater (with conditioner), but the only way to know for sure is to try it. What really seems to bother fish is a rapid change in total dissolved solids. This line of thinking does have limits though, since fish certainly wouldn't do well in a very basic or very acidic environment.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> I just put 5 gallons of tap water in a bucket with a air stone for an hour and the pH has already went from >8.6 down to 7.8 or so. I think I would have no problem adding this water to my tank. Still setting up seven 5 gallon pails with air stones each week is a lot of work. I would really like to just use my python.


You are using a de-chlorine/chloramines correct? All of that's fine as long as you remember to add
something like Stress Coat to your pre-mixed water. Chlorine by far is a more likely fish killer than
PH which nearly any fish will become accustomed to. [ I use Stress Coat just because it's
everywhere like Wal-Mart and it's cheap. ]

I have two 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brute Trash cans ($30 each) that I fill, add Stress Coat and an air
stone that I cover and leave alone for three or four days. Then I use a Python to dump waste
water into a third Brute and use a second Python to fill clean water from my reservoir cans.

- Brad


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

It is a good general rule to never add anything to the water unless there is a very, very good reason to do so. I don't use stress-coat, nor do I know anyone who does. In my possibly uninformed opinion stress coat benefits primarily the seller of it.

Guaiac boy had the right answer, in my opinion. If you are nervous about the fish, get a rubbermaid container, put tank water in it and temporarily add the fish you most hate to lose. Then just change water by adding tap water straight from the tap. Watch the fish for several hours, and if nothing seems amiss, add the valuable fish back and consider pH not to be a problem, swings or not.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> I use water conditioners to remove chlorine and chloramines in my water supply (I assume mostly everyone else is using these too??). mikeb210 what do you mean by "adding lots of extras"? Are you saying there are problems using baking soda to raise the KH? I also don't want to mess with peat to control the pH of my tap water.


Are you adding baking soda? That raises alkalinity (PH) overall very quickly not just CO3- & HCO3-
so your going to want to do that in your pre-mix water not your tank. While that works very well
crushed coral in a small bag will buffer (raise PH) slowly in a tank.

- Brad


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

jaidexl said:


> Usually, people who don't want to haul water around or buy an RO to soften their water stick with hard water setups, cichlid tanks etc. If you want a softwater tank than the decision is yours.


That's a bit of a stretch non-RO users overall are not that dumb. There's lots of ways to condition
tap water besides buying a high priced RO/DI setup funny enough that's exactly what we are 
discussing with this oak leave/baking soda/chemicals thread.

RO/DI is not the be all end all of water conditioning just like C02 setups are not the be all end all
of plant growing. I simply do not use RO/Di because of price and the amount of water it wastes
creating conditioned water and I don't use man made C02 methods because of price and that I
can grow very nice plants without it.

- Brad


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> Not because of precipitating additives, O2 and acid differances. *Am I correct that adding 9.5ph tap to a aquarium with a pH of 6.8 will cause a large pH swing (This is the only point this thread was intented to discuss!)? *


Yes if you add your water straight from your tap into your tank your looking at a large PH swing
and that can easily kill fish maybe not the first time but it will happen because of the stress put
on them.

As I said just a minute ago buy a few cheap 30+ gallon trash cans and pre-mix your water down
to your desired PH instead of using little buckets. A single airstone will aggregate the large cans
in 24'ish hours instead of the 15 minutes from a 5 gallon bucket.

- Brad


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> It is a good general rule to never add anything to the water unless there is a very, very good reason to do so. I don't use stress-coat, nor do I know anyone who does. In my possibly uninformed opinion stress coat benefits primarily the seller of it.


That's a strange comment to me since everyone I know uses it and nearly every hobbyist magizne
writer has used it at some point. Stress Coat isn't an unknown chemical concoction its been used
in the industry for decades. It's a de-chlorine/chloramine additive with a bit of Aloe Vera and
a heavy metal detoxifier (so 95% is H20).

I use it solely as a de-chlorine/chloramine additive which is a huge reason to use it. There are
dozens & dozens of similar products just like it on the market that would work it's just the one
I'm currently using because it's easy to get in my area.

- Brad


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I like hoppys idea of testing out the high pH water in my tank with the fish I "can live without". Ha. 

Is there a general rule of thumb for the amount of pH swing that will negatively affect fish?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

No. I'd consider the 9.5 reading that you are getting from the city to be "artificial". The actual chemical effect that the water will have on your fish is probaby better stated as the pH that the water reaches after it has settled for several hours. In my opinion, this does not mean that you need to let the water reach this equilibrium point before adding it. I'd say go for it. Add the tap water slowly the first time. Put some tank water in another container for rescue if you should need it (you won't).

I second Hoppy's advoidance of most commercial aquarium additives. Keep it simple. Most fish are tollerant of a wide varitey of water conditions. Ammonia kills them quick. Chlorine and especially chloramines kill them quick. You do need a dechlorinator, but most of the rest is optional. Knowingly adding "a heavy metal detoxifier" to a planted aquarium seems like a bad idea to me since this will likely sequester Fn, Mn, Cu, Zn and other essential nutrients.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks guaica boy. I think your right that the high pH is artificial. 
I just decided that I'm going to just add the water right to the tank without letting it reach equilibrium. I did a test adding 2 cups of tank water to 2 cups of tap and tested the pH. It was about a .3 point change, not 1 or 2 whole points like I might have expected! Hopefully this will be safe for my fishies. 

As far as conditioners go, I have always used them (primarily for chlorine and chloramines)! IMO stress coat is a marketing gimmick and a waste of money. I agree that adding a heavy metal remover seems like a bad idea also. That is why I have a gallon of amquel on order (not amquel+). The only thing amquel does is removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Not nitrates or heavy metals (at least it says it doesn't) Someone once recommended against using prime because it messes with the nitrates. I'm not sure there is any truth behind that, but I took his word for it and decided to use something else. Lots of people on this forum seem to praise Prime a lot. Who knows???


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I dunno. It's always hard to get to the science behind a proprietary product. The nice thing about Prime is that it takes so little to get the job done. A single bottle is almost a lifetime supply. There's been a lot of discussion on the boards that any water conditioner capable of neutralizing chlorine & chloramines will always remove a certain part of desirable elements too.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> As far as conditioners go, I have always used them (primarily for chlorine and chloramines)! IMO stress coat is a marketing gimmick and a waste of money. I agree that adding a heavy metal remover seems like a bad idea also. That is why I have a gallon of amquel on order (not amquel+).


This isn't a knock on anyone I just get a giggle out of blind prejudice.

You realize that according to the Amquel website that the original formula does remove Nitrites and Nitrates?:
*"AmQuel removes (actually detoxifies) a slight amount of Nitrites and Nitrates and other related organics, but less than 1 ppm, and not enough to be significant."
*
Funny enough 1ppm is exactly what Stress Coat says they remove as well. Plus according to there website the original Amquel is acidic(PH +/-) where Stress Coat isn't:
*"Conversely, the AmQuel formula is acidic. While adding a teaspoon of AmQuel per 10 gallons of water has slight affect on the pH of normal water, it can be an adverse problem, such as to fish in shipping bags in long distance shipments."*

The funny part is that Stress Coat runs about $3.00 cheaper than Amquel/Amquel+ and from my home brew tests the amount of heavy metal loss is nearly unreadable. I've used Stress Coat, Amquel, Prime, and drsfostersmith house brew stuff and they are all the same so if Stress Coat throws in a bit of aloe who cares how is that a gimmick? the only reason we use it is for de-chlorine/chloramines so go with the cheapiest stuff in your local area.

My point is know what you are putting into your tank never just go with your gut or swallow whole what a buddy or LFS says.

- Brad


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> I am concerned about a pH swing when I *switch from using 50/50 RO and Tap during water changes to 100% tap water.* Not because of precipitating additives, O2 and acid differances. *Am I correct that adding 9.5ph tap to a aquarium with a pH of 6.8 will cause a large pH swing (This is the only point this thread was intended to discuss!)?
> 
> I have found that if the tap water sits for an hour with an airstone the pH drops to about 7.6. I do not, however; want to run an airstone in 7 pails to let the pH drop (or let it sit for a few days) before I add it to my tank. I just want to add the water right to the tank from the faucet.*


*You missed what I was trying to tell you, I'm often guilty of using too many words to try and make a point and maybe I was trying to give info more than address the actual point of the thread, so let me reword it, or you can skip it since guaiac_boy did a better job of making the same point, essentially...

IME, your concern about the pH shift when you switch over is irrelevant to the health of the fish if your hardness is the same, if hardness is not the same then you should do it gradually to adjust the fish (if you were cutting your tap with RO than the hardness in the tank should be lower than the tap by now). The TDS and unknowns are probably not going to be the same, so I would personally do the transition over the course of a few changes for that reason as well, if I were concerned about the fish. But as far as weekly water changes are concerned after the transition, IME adding pH ~9 tap water straight to your tank with no more prep than water conditioner will not cause any problems as long as the hardness and temp are the same. In the past, I've put 8.2 tap water into my 6.4 tank every week with no issues, this is tap water that settles to 7.2 after 48hrs in a bucket. I saw no deaths or reason to aerate the water or let it set out to degas it. The only time I did see deaths was when I inadvertently caused a rapid 2 degree rise in alkalinity.

I was also trying to answer your question about adding buffer, not sure if that was any help but I tried my best.

As for the last reply to me from Brad, you're correct, I completely left that part out of the statement and I don't consider RO a be-all end-all. I was just trying to point out that there are other options that don't include softening the water, there are plenty of plant and fish species that will play along nicely. And I don't entirely concern myself with a fish's natural pH unless it's wild caught, stability is more important IMHO. The only reason I use RO/DI was stated in the end of my last reply, I reconstitute to match my tap, I keep softwater tanks because that is what is provided in this area.*


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

OK, so I'm guilty of not ready the fine print. Amquel does remove some nitrate, but not enough to be *significant*. So what am I supposed to realize??? It very well may be more cost effective to buy a product that contains a slime/stress coat to treat chlorine (as with Stress Coat vs. Amquel). I was only saying that I think the "idea of a protective slime coat" its a gimmick because I used to live with rural water and I never used a slime coat and my fish were very happy without it. This is not to say I wouldn't recommend anyone else to use them (or use stress coat if you're using it to treat chlorine) if they feel they are helpful. What I realize, Brad, is that you are a supporter of Stress Coat and thats fine. The $3 dollar price differance, <1ppm of nitrate they both remove, and the acidity of amquel does not concern me that much.

Additionally, the advice I got to not use Prime was from a experienced commercial grower of aquatic plants. If he says don't use it becuase it removes nitrates, I felt it was wise not to. His word is not holy and he may be wrong. Maybe I was swallowing his word whole, but I was an amatuer at the time and I was fine with it in this case. There are plenty of other alternative water conditioners out there I could use that don't remove nitrates and are closely as cost effective. The very point of this forum is to get advice and learn from other peoples experiences, even if it is not scientifically proven. On most issues i try to get as many sides of the issues as possible and then make a informed decision.

Thanks, Jaidexl for the clarification. I think it is a good idea to make the change gradually over a couple water changes.


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

Not to sway the thread farther from the OT: on the Prime and Amquel deal, they don't remove nitrates or nitrites or ammonia, amquel (AQ+ etc) turns them into safer forms for the fish but can still be used by plants and the biofilter, Prime locks it for about 48hrs then slowly releases it to the biofilter and plants. Not sure the LFS guy knew that or not, most of this is coming from the reps of both companies. The nitrate locking property of Prime was an accident that they stumbled upon and it takes a super overdose to make it happen, I took an API vile showing 10ppm NO3 and it took over three drops of prime in the vile to turn it yellow again, that's a lot of prime for only 5ml of water.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

What is the meaning of a safer form of NO3 and NH3???


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

That's a question better answered by the folks at Seachem and Kordon. They'll give you a more in depth run down than I or the bottle can. I can't find any of the dialog I had with any of them, but I'll go ask a person that seems to retain all of it and try to get an answer.


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

These are the best explanations I can find, anything further in detail can probably be answered by them, well maybe not Seachem because they obviously don't know why or how it's happening...

From Prime FAQ

"The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound."

From Kordon

AmQuel+ - how it works, compared to regular AmQuel:

"AmQuel+ breaks the toxic nitrogen compounds in the water apart, gassing out their oxygen and hydrogen components out of the water into the air, and preventing the nitrogen compounds from recombining in toxic form. These compounds include all the ammonia/ammonium, nitrites, nitrates, pheromones, and all other toxic organic compounds for which there are no common names -- yet are important to detoxify to be harmless to fishes and other aquatic life. The nitrogen components are mostly detoxified within five minutes and the slight remainder is detoxified over the next 24 hours. The compounds now broken apart are in the detritus and transparently soluble in the water. They are consumed over time by the sewage-consuming bacteria and algae."


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

This is beginning to get very interesting. Also a bit off topic, maybe this should be a new thread, but I'll discuss it here anyway.

I had recently ordered a gallon of amquel from petco and I received amquel+. I had it sent back and they were going to resend me the right stuff. Well they sent me the wrong stuff again!! How could they mess up the same order twice? Anyway, curious and not wanting to deal with petco any longer I looked on Kordons site about what Amquel+ actually does to ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite. All the website says is that it detoxifies them into safe forms. That was not good enough for me! I called Kordon and talked with one of their "doctors". I told him I have a planted aquarium and I am trying to maintain nitrate levels between 10 and 20 ppm. I wanted to know what amquel+ would do to that nitrate and if it would be still available to the plants after it was "detoxified". All he could tell me is that amquel breaks down/ or degases the molecule into the separate nitrogen and oxygen elements. He told me that the nitrogen would still be available for my plants to uptake. I then asked him how I would monitor my nitrate levels in my aquariums. He said I wouldn't be able to do that at all because the test kits for nitrate would not work because they are based on measuring the NO3 molecule. I would have to buy a $300 electronic kit to do that!

Into our discussion further he said that nitrates above 10ppm negatively affect the way fish sense or talk to each other. He said those high nitrate levels block the fishes ability to sense/smell its surroundings, *although it would not be apparent to us.*. I think what he was referring to is pheromones, but I'm not totally sure. I asked him if that information was available on his website and he said yes. I did find info about pheromones and how amquel+ removes pheromones so it does not become toxic http://kordon.com/kordon/articles/pheromones.html. I did not find anything talking about high nitrate levels and its effect on fishes ability to produce pheromones. The doctor went on to tell me that although the negative affects are reversible it takes a long time for fish to recover. Note: The doctor said that this is new research coming out in the last year.

I would like to start a discussion about anyones knowledge of high nitrate levels and fishes pheromones and ability to talk to each other and smell. Lots of aquarists use nitrate levels above 10ppm and I would like to see if people are aware of this issue. Also, how do people measure their nitrates if they use a product that detoxifies the molecule!

I'm going to start a new thread with this topic!!
-Matt


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## DaveS (Jun 9, 2006)

I realize that this topic has probably pretty well reached its conclusion by now, but I just read through it all and I thought I would share my experiences.

I live in Lima, OH and my tap water is very, very similar to yours. My tap pH is high enough that I can't actually measure it (my water company says it is 10+ at times), yet it is quite soft (KH=1). As to your original concern, I did in fact have some problems losing fish after large water changes with tap water (conditioned to remove chlorine but otherwise straight from the tap). What I would see at times looked almost like burns on the sides of some fish. I took a couple of fish that died this way to my LFS and he mentioned that he had seen similar problems from time to time before he started using a R/O system for his change water. After a good deal of fumbling around for answers, I finally did the simple thing and tested my tap water and I was somewhat shocked to see a pH value that would peg a high range test kit. I finally found that aging the water for 24 hours would lower the pH to 7.6 - 7.8. What I do now is age the water in a trash can with a couple of airstones and a heater (as was suggested earlier) to get decent change water.

Long story short is that I DID see problems using my tap water with large (>50%) water changes and I have not seen such problems since aging the water.

As to other matters, I use Prime with great results and I switched from Amquel after reading a warning buried on their website about using Amquel in very soft water FWIW.

Dave


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Dave, thanks for sharing your experience!!! I had just began to think that adding my water right from the tap would be ok, but this is evidence I might be better off aging it. I think I'll find room for a big garbage can in my tiny apt to age the water overnight. 

Dave, are you still able to monitor you nitrate levels using regular test kits with prime?


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## DaveS (Jun 9, 2006)

I never had a problem getting readings with my nitrate test kits after using Prime. I couldn't say if the readings are accurate, but they always seem to be in the ballpark of what I would expect to see. I honestly don't do much Nitrate testing, as the kits are not at all colorblind friendly.

I feel I need to qualify my experiences just a little. I only saw problems when I did large waterchanges. If I kept the changes down to 25% to perhaps 40% my fish did fine. When I started using larger changes, say >50% is when I would run into problems. I feel better using aged water, but I would also feel fairly safe using tap water with smaller changes.

Dave


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

DaveS said:


> I feel I need to qualify my experiences just a little. I only saw problems when I did large waterchanges. If I kept the changes down to 25% to perhaps 40% my fish did fine. When I started using larger changes, say >50% is when I would run into problems. I feel better using aged water, but I would also feel fairly safe using tap water with smaller changes.
> 
> Dave


I'd say that's my experience as well as long as the change or top-off is around the 20% or smaller
then adding water straight from your tap is ok if a bit rough on the heater(s).

I'm a big supporter of using a good pre-mix system - 32gal trash cans with heaters, air stone, &
conditioner that I test more than my tanks.

The only times I use water straight from my tap is to top off any evaporated water loss which 
is normally less than 5% of the tank.

-Brad


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

It takes a whole bunch of prime to affect nitrate. In any case, I still do any nitrate testing at least a day after using Prime. Or if I use 100% reconstituted RO/DI then I don't need the Prime and can test right away.

That's interesting you guys had negative effects from those water changes, maybe every treatment plant uses different additives, I know there are a few, one of the additives here is "soda ash" so I've heard.


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