# Open top emersed setup



## EDGE

A quick info on this setup.

This is an open top emersed setup.

Lighting consist of 3x HO T5 GE starcoats 65K 48" bulb 8" above substrate.

The substrate is a mixture of flourite and onyx.










I fertilize using PPS method; (ss on 1st day, po4-free 3rd day, ss on 5th day, and so forth). traces are dose each time fertilizers are added.

Currently, the plants are growing in normal stale water method. I plan to switch to a free draining tray and go with a hydroponic style watering method in the near future.

*lighting*



















*Plants*

Ludwigia sp Guinea









Hemianthus callitrichoides









Nesaea crassicaulis









More photos to come as other plants fill in.


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## Happy Camper

Nice one Edward, would you be so kind as to post a full shot pic of your setup please?


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## DelawareJim

Nice plants. I'm trying to grow some Hemianthus callitrichoides emersed in plain fine garden (mineral) soil but growth is excruciatingly slow and I've been having problems keeping algae under control. It looks like a film of BGA on the soil surface. Also the plants started bleaching out in the last few days.

Any suggestions?

Cheers.
Jim


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## EDGE

I am not Edward 

Not a lot more to show from the setup. Theres only 4 growout tray sitting ontop of a 4' by 2' flood table. I don't have the funding to finish off the hydroponic part of this setup.

I am having the same problem with bga growing in the emersed setup. This is mostly on the rockwool and the surrounding area. I find the cause of bga in the emersed setup to be more of an lack of O2 rather than lack of NO3. I have poured NO3 directly onto bga. They would fade away a little, but come back even stronger.

HC seems like to wet condition. I have to keep a thin layer of water above the substrate for it to grow well. In between watering, I let the water evaporate below the gravel before topping it off with more nutrients solution or just trace solution. This seems to prevent the bga from forming on the gravel.

I couldn't get a clear shot of the macrandra green since the light was not directly above the plant.

I think that is a flower bud at the top of the stem.

Rotala macrandra green


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## mrbelvedere138

If you don't mind me asking, what are you planning to do with this setup? Like grow plants quickly to sell, or maybe make a really cool habitat for some lucky critter?


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## cjloong

What type of critter would be suitable for these kind of environment?


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## EDGE

To house extra plants so I can use the 75G tank for scaping rather than growing them. The maintance for an emersed setup is a lot less than submersed setup. Aside from that, I am interested to know what some of the newier plants look like emersed and flower them as well. I won't be able to grow plants fast in this setup unless I start adding co2.

If I were to house critters in an emersed setup, tree frogs would be my first choice, but setup would need to be a closed system. No different than a paludarium.


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## DelawareJim

Thanks for the tip with the BGA. I'm growing emersed for some of the same reasons; nursery "mother plants", curiosity, and flowering.

I'll have to try the flourite/onyx substrate and compare growth with my mineral soil plants.

BTB, that is a flower bud on your macrandra green. The shape lookings like it puts the plant in the mint family (Lamiaceae). Since I've never grown macrandra, does it have a squarish stem?

Cheers.
Jim


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## Happy Camper

EDGE said:


> I am not Edward


Whoopsie, my apologies. Can you stil post a pic of your full setup, I would be very interested in seeing it, thank you.


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## EDGE

The rotala macrandra green has a round stem. 

Hemigraphis triain has squarish stem. I just pulled a couple stems out of the submersed setup and place them in the emersed. I do find it necessary to mist the plants during the transition phase if I don't use a dome.

The only problem with this setup is the heat from HO T5. They suck the humidity out of the air. Some plants don't like the drier environment. If I add a dome to the flood table, I would have to rise the light up to 12"+ so the heat wouldn't warp the dome. I have been thinking of using a dome and CO2 injection when I am able to convert this setup into a hydroponic system. This is more or less to see how much faster plants can grow emersed with CO2 addition to the air.


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## RuslanJamil

Interesting stuff... When you have the dome, how do you plan to inject the CO2? Would tealights/candles be suitable as the CO2 source in the dome?


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## EDGE

candle would be rather dangerous to use in a closed system. There is a chance the setup could catch on fire. I am thinking of using pressurize system.


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## EDGE

update:

Replace the photo of what I thought was a R. macrandra 'green' flower bud with a photo of the actual flower. This is a very unique flower... ugly, but unique.










On another note:

I am in the process of converting M umbrosum and R macrandra to emeresd for flowering as well. L sp. guinea has not flower, nor any other plants from previous planting.

I have the dome ready for the conversion to hydroponic. I just have to get a micro sprinkler fitting to run 1/4" line to the nozzles.


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## DelawareJim

I don't know about ugly. I don't think I would grow it specifically for it's flowers but I think those anthers with the long filaments and contrasting pollen sac are rather attractive in their own unique way.

Cheers.
Jim


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## EDGE

Jim, did you managed to get the algae under control in the emersed setup? I have been playing around with H2O2 misting on a daily basis. This method is used in horiculture to aid plants in respiration. I use it mostly for the same reason and to get rid of some of the algae building up on the surface.

Do you have any particular plants you want to see flower? I am going to switch to a high PO4 mixed to see if I can get some of the more stubborn plants to flower.


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## DelawareJim

Partly. I followed your lead and I'm switching most of my emersed pots over to flourite from garden soil. The flourite grown plants I just started are really taking off. I tried lowering the water level in my soil grown plants to try and dry up the BGA. It worked, now I have this blackish green water repellant skin on the soil surface. I think the soil grown setup is taking a trip to the compost bin this weekend.

Cheers.
Jim


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## EDGE

Are you adding any nutrients to the flourite setup? You will need Ca, Mg, NPK, and Te with flourite.


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## DelawareJim

Actually, I've doing light fertilization with Miracle Gro, about 1/4 recommended strength every 2 weeks. So far so good.

Cheers.
Jim


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## rusticitas

Late post to this thread, I know...

How does one fertilize/dose these plants since one can't add to the water column? For some reason I just can't figure this one out in my head...

-J


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## EDGE

With open top system, the water evaporate quite fast. What I do is premix the nutrients in a watering pot then pour the solution into the trays. I changed the system about 2 weeks ago. 

This is now a closed system with DIY CO2. I redid the trays to a passive hydroponic setup. I couldn't come up with an efficient and feasible design to run water for an active setup on a small scale. The setup is now a 2 tray design. One is to hold water and the other has holes to drain water. I place them on top of each other. This allow for a more dry system and easier maintenance. I just remove the outer tray, dump the old solution, place tray back on, and pour new solution. 

I am seeing much stronger overall growth with stem plants.


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## Rek

fantastic photo


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## DelawareJim

Edge;

Any new pics?

My flourite grown HC was way outgrowing my soil grown HC until we had a couple days in the 90's. The flourite plant burned pretty badly in the heat/sun where my soil HC just wilted. BTB, I didn't have the heart to pitch the soil grown HC into the compost bin along with everything else.

I'm starting to think about a small terrarium for my desk at work with a bit of HC as a forground plant. Trying to find something small and "fernish" to go with.

Cheers.
Jim


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## EDGE

Jim,

Nice to see someone interested in seeing how the progress is with this setup.

Unfortunately, I have been tied up with getting ready to move and have neglected to look after this setup. I will take a couple photos of the revamp setup sometime this week. This will probably be the last photos until I move the setup outdoor to replace the current outdoor setup in a few months. 

The plants growing under sunlight are more robust than using 3x 54watt HO T5. In terms of speed, they are about the same. I will take a few photos of Myriophyllum aquaticum for comparison.

I have uprooted quite a bit of HC over the last month. They took around 3 months to spread from 1.5" by 1.5" area to 9" by 9" area.

As for your HC,

If there is too much heat and not enough water covering the plants, they will dry up from lack of humidity. Outdoor setup would benefit with a dome to keep the humidity in, but this will create even more heat build up. Is there a partially shaded area you can keep them?
They don't need direct sunlight for more than 2-3 hours a day.


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## czado

> Nice to see someone interested in seeing how the progress is with this setup.


I suspect I am not the only one very interested in the progress of your setup, but have nothing-little to contribute. 

Appreciate your detailed information. Love your pics.


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## EDGE

Thanks.

Here are the photos. They are not great, but will have to do. I have switched 3 tray over to perlite.

Complete setup update









Close up 1









Close up 2









Close up 3









Limnophila aromatica flower

I am not sure if this is the same limnophila aromatica as the one in plantfinder. This plannt 
has a pinkish purple flower and not white like the one in plantfinder









Myriophyllum aquaticum comparison

Bottom is grown in indoor setup and top is grown in outdoor setup. Both closed system









I will add the photos of swords growing outdoor here as well. The have been outside for the last 2 months in Canadian weather.

Echinodorus Amazonicus









Echinodorus Cordifolius ssp. fluitans









Echinodorus Cordifolius 'Marble Queen'









Echinodorus 'Gabrieli'









Echinodorus schlueteri 'Leopard' 









I started off with weak specimens for Gabrieli, Leopard, and amazonicus. They took longer to recover than the Cordifolius.


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## Cavan Allen

> I am not sure if this is the same limnophila aromatica as the one in plantfinder. This plannt
> has a pinkish purple flower and not white like the one in plantfinder


 It is the same thing as the submersed plants in the Plant Finder. I believe that the emersed pic in the PF is of either a variation of aromatica (as it is a very variable species) or simply grown under certain conditions. I had stuff that looked identical to yours growing outside and when I brought it inside at the end of the summer, the flowers became white.

Is the plant in the 3rd tray _Ludwigia sp._ 'Guinea' (senegalensis?)?


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## EDGE

yes, that is ludwigia sp. Guinea. it hasn't flower yet. I can get it to bud, but the bud disappeared before it opens.


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## Cavan Allen

I see my submersed stuff grow buds too, but unlike _Heteranthera zosterifolia_, it the flowers never open under water and nothing ever comes of it.


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## Jimbo205

Wow! This thread is great! Thank you.


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## EDGE

Finally, part of the outdoor emersed setup










This is similar to a raft system. The only difference is I am not floating the plants. They sit on the bottom. The styrofoam is there to reduce the algae build up in the tub. Last year, the pots got too heavy for the raft design which made the surface of the pots go below water. This created a film of slime algae on the surface which suffocated the plants.

I will be replacing this setup with flood tables next year. Cheaper and easier to plumb if I don't have to deal with wood and PVC liner.

Top left plant is water sprite. There are a lot of flower buds on there. I will take a photo of them when they open.


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## DelawareJim

Nice set up Edge; simple and effective. I see the trays are standard nursery trays, but what size are your hydroponic pots? Judging from the hydroton balls, I'd sya they're about 3 inches?

Cheers.
Jim


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## EDGE

You are correct, they are 3" pot. Ideally, the bigger the pots the better for echinodorus. They get top heavy quite fast and 3" pot will tip over easily. I used 3" pots for indoor crypts setup as well. The marble queen in the photo is around 12" tall. Most of the growth happened within the last couple weeks when the weather warmed up to 20 c or so.

The only reason to go with smaller pots is to have less water in the tub. The bigger the pots, the higher the water level. As a guideline, the depth of the water should cover the opening on the side of the pots and no more. If there is too much water, plants will suffocate.

This design is *not* for pond or anything with open water. The water is very rich in nutrients and will be a breeding ground for algae and pest.

Yes, they are standard nursery trays times 2. I have one tray on top of another, one with pre fabricated holes and one with no holes. The perlite sits in the tray with holes. This allow me to seperate the tray to drain the solution every week to 2 weeks. The plants dont get water log as easy in perlite. Gravel is also way too heavy for the flimsy trays. The algae on white perlite does look unpleasant though.

Personally, I like the outdoor system better. It is easier to monitor the nutrients and drain the setup. I don't need to move trays around for draining and plants are more robust in sunlight. Outdoor setup are more energy efficient. Trade off is finding ways to reduce algae and heat.


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## EDGE

A small treat

Ludwigia sp. guinea flower


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## fish_4_all

I know I should already know this, but what are the red rocks in your pots that you are using?


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## EDGE

They are flourite and onyx sand mixed. I replaced 3 of the trays with perlite. Flourite is too heavy for those flimsy trays.


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## fish_4_all

The rocks in the pots, not the trays. Sorry, should have been more specific but I found them, clay balls. You now have only perlite in the trays with no sand or a perlite sand mix? Sorry for asking so many questions but I don't want to destroy the last of my HC but I want to get it growing before it all dies. I just learned to grow plants submerged so emersed is a whole new ballgame


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## EDGE

ohh, you want to grow HC. Definately use a finer substrate. Hydroton is way too big for HC. 

Keep the water so it is almost the same level as substrate. High water level of nutrient rich solution can lead to algae.

I haven't tried HC and perlite. They are growing fine in flourite/onyx mixed.


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## fish_4_all

Ok, HC is in Onyx sand and red fluorite, the other species are now in just perilite and the pots that have the water sprite are in hydroton, I hope that is correct anyway. You use PPS for your dosing, which I don't understand quite yet. Your growth is amazing, so if I can follow it I should get the same results or at least be close and not have a complete failure. That and this is an open system, not covered with a dome or hood. 

I ask so much because my other forum doesn't have much in the way of emersed growing information and I would like to provide them with as much real life effective information as I can. 

Thanks for all the help, I wouldn't be half as close to being ready to grow my own emersed cultures without your help.


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## DelawareJim

Fish;

I've been successfully growing HC emersed in flourite since April. I just have mine in a left over 4 inch flower pot filled almost to the rim with flourite and my HC planted in the middle. The pot just fits in a pint chinese take-away soup container so I can fill water right up to the top of the substrate. My setup in the pot looks just like Edge's at the beginning of this thread (who advised me, thanks Edge). I let the water level drop a bit occasionally to keep algae under control. I fertilize with very dilute Miracle Grow (less than 1/4 strength) when it looks a little pale or growth noticeably slows. 

I keep my HC on my bathroom windowsill where it gets morning sun and I can check on it every day. It is sensitive to heat and dehydration and if my water level gets a little too low or on a really hot day outside, the newest growth burns out. But in about a week, you'd never know it burned. I also water mine mostly with dehumidifier water since I have really hard well water and the mineral deposits from straight well water would form a crust on the pot edges and leaves.

Cheers.
Jim


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## fish_4_all

Well now I know I am ready to try a couple plants emersed. HC will be the first and when I get my Crypts runners a little larger i will grow some of them to try and get them to propogate faster. 

The last question. The lighting. I plan to put 40 watts of spiral screw in flourescents over 1 tray like Edge uses. Will that be enough or should I up with a 15 watts fluorescent tube?


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## EDGE

I am not using 40 watt spiral screw in. I am using 3x HO T5 4' 54 watt over 4 trays.

You might find a spiral bulb doesn'thave a good spread/coverage over the tray. I recommand 2x 15 watt NO over the tray (around 5" away from tray) for coverage.


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## fish_4_all

I know, I saw your setup, I just wish I had that much room. 
I have two 15 watts fixtures so I will try them also. Thanks again for all the help. Now I just have to find flourite for less than $30 a bag locally.


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## EDGE

You dont have to use flourite. Profile aquatic Plant soil should work just as good. I just have flourite lying around.


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## fish_4_all

That's the problem, no one locally, within 45 miles caries anything for growing anything aquatic. Is really kind of strange because within 10 miles in every dirrection there is a lake, river or pond and even the ocean. One of the drafbacks of a small town that wants to be big. Big business but no big business selection. Ace, Home Depot, Wal-mart, a pond shop, 3 LFS and nothing to grow aquatic plants.


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## DelawareJim

Fish;

Regular aquarium gravel works, just use water from your tank.

If you have your heart set on flourite, That Fish Place has it for $14.99 for a 15 pound bag and $8.99 shipping.

Cheers.
Jim


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## fish_4_all

Gonna try Profile aquatic Plant soil, perlite and rockwool all in the same tub and see which one does better. I will be starting a new thread with the results and steps of growth or the lack there of. If none of them work I am going to order flourite and onyx sand to see if that makes a difference. 

Thank you for the help again, all of you. Hopefully my HC will start to multiply and I can get some crypts to multiply quickly as well as rosetta sword and


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## Jimbo205

Fish 4 All, when you do this - could you post a photo at some point so we could all see it? 

I would love to see what it looks like when you are done!


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## fish_4_all

I will be starting a whole new thread. Pictures will be posted as well as how much I dose and when. All information I can give will be in the post. I think I have taken enough of Edge's post so I am off to start one of my own.


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## Jimbo205

> I recommand 2x 15 watt NO over the tray (around 5" away from tray) for coverage.


I am sorry, but what is NO ?


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## DelawareJim

NO is Normal Output; a standard fluorescent bulb.
Compared to HO- High Output and VHO- Very High Output.

Cheers.
Jim


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## RAFO-CHILE

Definetly Awesome!!!!....i`m Trying With Anubias And Microsorum Pteropus..it`s Doing Well...but I`m Having Some Troubles With The Temperature Because It`s Winter Time Here In Chile...but The Plants Seem To Be Growing Slowly But Well....


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