# Filtration in NPTs



## justjulie (Aug 16, 2010)

My DH can't wrap his head around the idea that a NPT doesn't need filtration. To be fair, he was a successful fish breeder before we started NPTs, and all his tanks (with plastic plants) required filtration. So I can't blame him for having a hard time getting past that.

Truthfully, even I don't understand all the biological processes at work in the tank and why exactly a filter isn't necessary. But I believe Diana and others on this forum when they say that filtration isn't needed unless there's some sort of problem going on. 

DH has acquiesced to having filters without active media--just the floss. But I'm worried that the bubbles that are created are depleting our CO2. Last night I convinced him to try keeping the tank water level as high as possible so we're not having a waterfall into the tank.

If everything were okay in our tanks I'd be fine with the current filtration situation. But most of our plants aren't growing well and we have algae problems. We have lots of plants in our tanks and we used 1.5" of Miracle Gro Organic and 1.5" of small aquarium gravel. Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite are at 0. Our two tanks were planted 2-3 months ago.

So do you think the filters could be the problem here? 

Is there any other compromise I can make with DH so that we can both feel comfortable about filtration?

Related question: Why won't my frogbit and duckweed grow? I have some in all my aquariums and even in the open-topped one they haven't grown. I thought they were supposed to grow like crazy.

Thanks for the help,

Julie


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## Noto (Oct 26, 2009)

> Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite are at 0.


This could be your trouble right here, especially with regards to the floating plants. Those nitrogenous compounds provide plants' favorite macronutrient!


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

you could use a powerhead with an attached sponge as basic filtration and water movement


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## funkman262 (Oct 2, 2010)

What kinds of plants do you have?
What's your lighting?
Are you supplementing CO2 or strictly relying on soil decomposition?
How's your bioload?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

The lack of filtration isn't causing your problem.

The fact that nitrates are zero suggests that the plants are not getting enough nutrients.

But more important, since light drives all other aquarium processes, I wonder if you are supplying enough? What is your lighting?

Bill


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## justjulie (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your replies. I had written a beautiful response to your questions and it just got zapped. So here's the short of the long:

Tank #1: 10 gal, 15 watt GE Cool White bulb on a 5-4-5 siesta regimen, ambient light in the room all day from LARGE windows. Hygrophilia and crypt were large when I bought them and have stayed that way. Everything else got somewhat established and then stopped growing. I've only had 2-3 fish in there - was using it as a nursery tank. Haven't had any algae problems.









Tank #2: 30 gal, 40-watt CFLs that I'm not using because it's immediately in front of aforementioned LARGE east-facing windows--gets 3-4 hours of direct light and then lots of indirect. Got too much light, I think, because algae started creeping up on us. We got rid of the algae but the Aponogeton and Sword lost 40% of their leaves to it. Other plants got somewhat established and then stopped growing just like Tank #1 (which hasn't had any algae problems). Had 18-20 fish in this one until 2 weeks ago when we had an Ich epidemic with secondary bacterial infection. All fish are in a hospital tank right now. How long do I need to wait after treatment with antibiotics until I can put them back in planted tank? All spots of Ich are gone (I used Coppersafe).









I'm not supplementing with CO2 or any fertilizers. We do 25% water changes every two weeks or so.

I tested again last night and not much has changed: 8.3 pH, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, and Nitrate might be a little above 0.

What's my culprit? And what levels of Nitrite/ate should I aim for?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Julie, compared with other successful NPTs, yours are too sparsely planted. You may need to experiment with a number of different species until you find the ones that will grow well and FAST until the tanks are well established.

On the subject of filtration and CO2, I have had the same concern that the Aquaclear HOB filters I use would cause loss of the natural CO2. Recently I visited an experienced member of our local club, and saw Aquaclears running on both his CO2 and non-CO2 tanks. The tanks were beautiful! I asked him about it, and he explained that he keeps the water level high in the tank so that there is no splash or bubbles where the water returns to the tank, and surface agitation is kept at a minimum. No problems with CO2 loss.

And lastly, on tank #2 with lots of sun that you had algae problems in. Sunlight falling directly on submerged soil can cause release of excess iron into the water column. This can cause algae growth. Diana recommends covering the exposed soil at the edges of the aquarium with foil or opaque tape to prevent sunlight from hitting it directly. If you have a copy of her book, check out the section on iron on p 169.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I think that Tank # 1 needs at least twice as much light as it is getting.

The usable light that twisted CFL's put out is about 60% of what incandescent bulbs of the same wattage do, and even less compared to T12's or T8's, so I'd say that Tank # 2 is umderilluminated also. The direct sunlight mitigates that, but what happens on cloudy days? Plants like stability.

Bill


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

I agree with Bill from a few posts back. The fact that nitrates are zero means not enough nutrients. Either you don't have enough fish, or you aren't feeding them enough. Diana recommends feeding the tank, not just the fish. This means feeding a bit more generously than you would in a non-planted tank. This would be especially important where you remove fish but keep the tank going - keep feeding the tank. The plants need it. Again, with nitrates at zero, you have too much filtration - not too little. Nitrates are plant food and your plants are starving. If you can't even grow floaters, it is not a lack of CO2, it is a lack of nutrients in the water. 

Your tanks will look great when they have the nutrients to fill in some more.


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## funkman262 (Oct 2, 2010)

vicky said:


> Again, with nitrates at zero, you have too much filtration - not too little.


Unless she's using a denitrifying filter, too much filtration won't reduce her nitrates. If anything, it'll increase her nitrates as the bacteria outcompete the plants for ammonia. And keep in mind that plants will more readily take up ammonia than nitrate so there doesn't necessarily need to be nitrates in the tank if the plants are consuming the ammonia at the same rate that it's produced. I do agree though that a larger bioload, more feeding, or ferts may help. With algae in tank2 I would suggest either decreasing the photoperiod and/or supplying diy co2.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

You might want to check out some pics of various NPT's that the owners are not using filtration in. This will get you an idea of plant density and also you can show hubby what lack of filtration looks like in a tank.

I only know of a few plus my own that are filterless completely, but most are in the Journals forum to my knowledge. You might check out davemonkey's 55 gallon thread, and then I have two that are filterless in the threads "Mudboots' 125 NPT" and Mudboots' Pico-Tope". You could also just post here in El Natural asking for pics of tanks that do not use filtration. I've seem some really nice ones here in this forum from time to time that are filterless.


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## justjulie (Aug 16, 2010)

I _really_ appreciate the advice from everyone.

Michael: Good to know about the Aquaclear filters and water level. I think DH will be happy if we keep the filters and just keep the water level high. I'm buying new plants in the For Sale/Trade section today...hopefully that will help. We have put black duct tape on the bottom 3" of the back and sides of our tank.

Bill: Thank you for the advice on lighting. It has been very confusing. I will add more light to Tank 1 and for Tank 2 I've started a modified siesta regimen--but maybe I'll add higher-watt CFLs. I had no idea that their usable light was less than the wattage. Thanks again.

Vicky: I feel that we overfeed our tanks a little--but considering that we have so few fish, overfeeding them doesn't amount to much. We'll add new fish this weekend. I know Diana recommends a moderate load of fish...so in my 30 gal would 15-20 fish be good? And maybe 5 in my 10 gal? Also, thanks for the encouragement. 

Funkman: I'm not ready to do CO2, but I think I'm going to add some ferts for awhile until things start growing. My LFS recommends Flourish Excel...good stuff?

Mudboots: I'll definitely check out pictures of other filter-less NPTs--hadn't even thought of that. Plus, it'll be fun to see what my tanks could look like someday!


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## funkman262 (Oct 2, 2010)

justjulie said:


> Funkman: I'm not ready to do CO2, but I think I'm going to add some ferts for awhile until things start growing. My LFS recommends Flourish Excel...good stuff?


I wouldn't recommend dosing any ferts in tanks that have algae or the problem will get even worse. And Flourish Excel isn't a fertilizer, it's a carbon source that plants can use in place of CO2. If you decide to do that, make sure your plants are compatible with it. I've never used it myself but I know some plants will actually melt if Excel is used.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

There is a difference between filtration and water movement.

Filtration implies removing something from the water, or adding something to the water. 
Mechanical filtration is the removal of particles from the water, such as dust, poop, dead leaves and other things. The most common media for this are various sponges and floss. 
_Chemical filtration_ means removing or adding something to the tank such as using activated carbon to remove medicines, or a water softener pillow to lower the GH, or adding peat moss to the filter to add tannic and other organic acids to the water, or adding crushed coral to add minerals to the water. 
Biological filtration means altering the water by the action of living things. Nitrifying bacteria live on media in the filter, and on all the surfaces in the tank. Different species of these microorganisms remove ammonia and turn it into nitrite, and remove nitrite and turn it into nitrate. Plants are also biological filters. They remove all three of the nitrogen products, and a dozen other minerals and elements and utilize them in building their tissues. 
Plants also are exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide in the water. If some of the minerals etc. that they need are not present then they cannot grow.

Water movement is circulating the water in the tank to assure that the materials needed by the plants and fish are available pretty much evenly throughout the tank. Water movement can be done with the same equipment as filtration, or you can simply add a power head or air bubbler to move the water around. The force of the water movement at the intake of most power heads is so strong that it is a good idea to put a sponge over the intake so the fish will not get caught. This becomes filter media, because it is performing mechanical filtration, and nitrifying bacteria grow on the sponge, so it becomes a biological filter, too. Air bubblers are discouraged because they create so much water movement at the surface that they lower the CO2 level in the water.

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Fish food supplies a lot of the minerals etc. that plants need, but not all, and maybe not in the right amounts. Tap water may contain a lot of minerals, or just a few. Soil might contain a lot of minerals, or just few. 
As these minerals etc. get used up they need to be replaced.

You can monitor the levels of some of the things plants need. 
Plants and fish are pretty good tests for what is available in the tank. Nitrate and other chemical tests are pretty good, too.

"They grew for a while, then they slowed down"
"Nitrate = 0 ppm, or almost 0 ppm"
Both of these comments indicate there is not enough nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) in the tank for the plants. 
Usually nitrogen comes from fish food. 
"There were not many fish in this tank"
"...put the fish in a hospital tank to treat for Ich..."
Suggests you are not adding enough food to these tanks to provide the nitrogen the plants need.

Phosphate is also available from fish food. Not enough nitrogen implies, but does not prove, that there is also a lack of phosphate. Deficiencies of phosphate and nitrogen look similar in plants. Poor growth and yellowing leaves.

There are a couple of ways to add fertilizer to a tank. 
You can add more fish food. This might make the fish sick eating too much. 
You can add slow release tablets under the substrate. This is a very good way to fertilize a tank. The fertilizer stays out of the water column and is available to the rooted plants. 
You can add fertilizers to the water column. Plants that have no roots in the substrate need their fertilizers in the water column.

Seachem Excel is a very good source of carbon. It is not a fertilizer. It does not have any other element that plants need. Just carbon. Carbon is very important to plants, and Excel is a good way to add some to a tank. In a natural tank there ought to be a reserve of organic matter in the substrate getting turned into CO2 for the plants. If the tank is fairly new then there may not be this reserve of organic matter yet.

The fertilizers that plants use the most of are referred to as Macros. These are nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. I do not think your tank has enough of any of these to grow the plants.
N and P are available in fish food or fertilizer tablets. K is available in fertilizer tablets. All three are available in liquids and powders you can add to the water column.

The minerals that plants use less of are referred to as Micros. Plants use only very small amounts of these, and usually enough are available in fish food, if the nitrogen is enough. Also, substrate and tap water supply some. These are also available in tablets, liquids and powders. But I would not add any, yet. Lets get the macros, carbon and light taken care of first.

There are some minerals that plants use more of, but are still grouped with micros. Often these are needed in amounts that are not supplied in fish food:
Iron: Your tank probably needs iron. Tablets, liquid, or powders. 
Calcium, Magnesium. If the GH tests at least 3 German degrees of hardness, then there is enough Ca and Mg in the water. If you see the GH dropping then it would be a good idea to increase the water changes. Often tap water has enough Ca and Mg for the plants and fish. If not, then adding crushed coral or oystershell grit to the filter will add several minerals to the water. Adding these to the substrate is another means of supplying these minerals to the plants. 
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What I would do at this point:
Get some fertilizer tablets. Place them deep in the substrate near each of the rooted plants. 
Improve the lighting as suggested in the posts above. 
Use Excel for carbon. 
Feed the tank just like the fish are still there. This will keep the microorganisms (especially the nitrifying bacteria) healthy by supplying the ammonia they need to survive. 
Keep the filters going. This is for water circulation. Add whatever filter media you want. 
Test and post the results for GH.

When the fish are healthy (give them at least a week after the end of the medication) add them back to the tank and see if their respiration provides enough CO2 for the plants.


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