# walstad substrate



## masoudj021 (Jan 7, 2016)

hi
In my walstad tank I have white gravel I want to switch to substrate as she said in her book.
1.any idea of how to switch from gravel to substrate ?
2.Does new substrate raise nitrate?
3.I want to move back my fish & plants in 1 day maximum. Is it possible?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC!

1. The easiest and most thorough way is to tear down the tank and start over.

2. Sometimes it does. You can prevent this by preparing the soil well, planting heavily right away, and using an established filter. See the sticky threads on mineralized topsoil in the Library forum, and suitable soils in this forum.

3. This is possible if you are careful.

Prepare the soil properly and plant heavily immediately. Be sure to protect your biological filter during the process; a well established biofilter really helps with a new set up. If the existing gravel in your tank is suitable for a cap, re-use it. Rinse it with the old tank water so that you do not kill the existing biofilm.

Do not use the old tank water to refill the aquarium, it doesn't help. If you can, fill a suitable container with the new water and use a good dechlorinator a day or two in advance. Run an aerator in the new water while it sits.

When the tank is filled with new water, if possible do a water test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH to be sure nothing is seriously wrong. When it is time to put the fish back in, do a drip acclimatization. Keep then in their old tank water, and slowly add water from the new tank over several hours until the fish are in water that is 3 or 4 parts new water to 1 part old water. This takes care of pH, temperature, and water chemistry shock.

After the fish are back in, observe them closely and do daily water tests if possible. If ammonia is detectable, or if the fish show distress, do a large water change immediately. Keep that new water container filled, dechlorinated, and aerated so you have conditioned water to use for any emergency water changes.

Set aside a full day to do this. You will be busy!


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I would mineralize the soil to reduce ammonia etc. in the water. 

You could do some extra gravel vacuuming in the week or two prior to the day you do the actual change. Try to get out as much debris as possible. 
Clean the filter several days or a week before so it has a chance to recover in case any damage is done to the bacteria population. 

Do not bother to save old water. It may help if there are mineral difference between old and new, but if you can match GH, KH, TDS, then all-new water is just fine. 

There will usually be a fair amount of nitrifying bacteria on the upper surface layer of the gravel. When you remove this it would be good to replace the lost bacteria. Get a bottle that includes Nitrospira species of bacteria. As you are refilling, add this to the filter.


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## masoudj021 (Jan 7, 2016)

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> 1. The easiest and most thorough way is to tear down the tank and start over.
> 
> ...


Thank you very very much
Can I prepare the soil and weaken its nitrate in a tub for some days and aftar that immediately put that in tank for more safe changing. unfortunately I dont have any tester. is changing worth accepting the risk of changing substrate ?


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## Eutexian (Mar 29, 2015)

Diana K said:


> When you remove this it would be good to replace the lost bacteria. Get a bottle that includes Nitrospira species of bacteria. As you are refilling, add this to the filter.


Im really not sure about these 'bottled' bacteria potions.. seems to me the much simpler way. and the way Ive used now on all my tanks, is to go out into the garden (yard) armed with a spoon. look for an area thats rich in fallen leaves.. or 'wild'. scrape back the surface and take a spoonful of soil. remove anything twiggy and obviously 'alive'. and add this to the substrate. at a stroke you will be adding untold billions of bacteria.. some of which will be ideally suited to the water conditions. This method was recommended to me by Diana Walstad herself.. she even sent me a link to a scientific paper on this subject.

on the topic of gravel cleaning 'old' substrate.. I'm very much taken by Tom Barrs recommendation of saving the 'muck/mulm' and adding that to the new soil. once again.. at a stroke you are adding untold billions of bacteria that are already suited to your particular water conditions.. throwing this away is a terrible waste. (of waste).


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"Can I prepare the soil and weaken its nitrate in a tub for some days and aftar that immediately put that in tank for more safe changing. unfortunately I dont have any tester. "

Yes. You will find extensive directions for soil preparation in the two sticky threads I mentioned. Even just soaking and draining the soil several times helps a lot.

"is changing worth accepting the risk of changing substrate ?"

Yes, if your primary interest is having a planted tank. If you have very valuable fish, or they are pets with names, you will want to be more careful.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

> I'm really not sure about these 'bottled' bacteria potions..


Many years ago 'they' thought they had the right species of bacteria, and these bacteria were easy to bottle and sell- the bacteria entered a dormant phase and would revive when they entered the tank. The bacteria survived sitting in warehouses and on shelves.
But they were the wrong species of bacteria. They did little or nothing to reduce ammonia or boost the population of bacteria in the aquarium. This gave all the 'bacteria in a bottle' products a bad name. These products did not 'make the tank safe for the fish' or 'instantly cycle the tank'. In *tests with these products the tanks did not cycle any faster than if they had not been used at all. Worthless.

But times change. Science caught up with fish keeping, and a scientist studied fresh (and salt) water aquariums with the goal of correcting this situation.

About 15 years ago Dr. Tim Hovanec discovered the actual species of bacteria living in aquarium filters (he did this for both salt and fresh water aquariums). The company he worked for at the time began packaging and selling it. Bio Spira. Unfortunately these bacteria do not enter a resting or dormant phase, so the product had to be carefully handled (neither too hot nor too cold) and used promptly. *Worked perfectly when everything went well. 
Companies change, products change hands... 
Tetra ended up with the patent to the fresh water Bio Spira, and figured out how to make it live longer in the bottle. It is now sold as Tetra Safe Start. 
Dr. Tim Hovanec left the company he worked for and started his own company. He also figured out how to keep the fresh water type in the bottle longer. It is now sold as Dr. Tim's One and Only. 
Marineland retained the patent for the salt water version of Bio Spira, and still markets it. 
Many years ago, when the site I frequented *tested the original Bio Spira, one of the people doing the testing also got some really good results with *Microbe Lift's Nite Out II and Fritz' Turbo Start. Results that were similar to the results with properly handled Bio Spira.

Other companies market 'bacteria in a bottle' products, but I think most of them are still packaging the same old mix of wrong species. Not worth purchasing.

You are right that the microorganisms in the garden are the same species as are found in the aquarium, and your description of where to find them sounds just right. They thrive in high oxygen damp to wet locations with low (not zero) levels of ammonia, just as you would find in a slow compost setting. I would only be concerned that you do not know how many bacteria you are adding, and the OP in this thread does not have testing equipment. If there is going to be any problem with the nitrifying bacteria, then I would want to add as much as possible of the known correct species.

Alternatively, doing the whole tank with garden soil, collected as you have suggested, and as suggested in Diana Walstad's book is a good way to get the right bacteria, but it also brings in many microorganisms that cannot make it under water. Setting up such a tank can result in high ammonia levels as some of the microorganisms die and others grow in their new setting. This method is not for someone who wants to do it all in one day, and has no way of knowing if the new environment is safe for the fish.

* I was a moderator at Fish Geeks. This site is no longer in existence. One of the owners was a fish store owner. When Bio Spira came out he and several other moderators at Fish Geeks got packages of Bio Spira, Microbe Lift's Nite Out II and Fritz Turbo Start, plus several of the 'other' products, such as Cycle. 
They ran tests designed to replicate 'real life' scenarios: A new fish keeper, knows nothing about the nitrogen cycle, buys one of these products, with a tank, equipment, some gravel, plastic plants and fish all in one day, sets it up and.... 
They tested the water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and did water changes as needed to keep these parameters under toxic levels. 
Best: 
Bio Spira, Microbe Lift's Nite Out II, Fritz Turbo Start all cycled the tanks in just a few days with no high spikes of ammonia or nitrites. Minor blips of ammonia, often no nitrite would show. No need for water changes during cycling. These tests were done with varying levels of fish, and even when fully stocked (reasonable level, not over stocking) these products did the job. When the tank was lightly stocked, the product could be kept in the refrigerator and more would be added to the tank with each addition of fish.

Worst:
All the older products, or using nothing at all (tanks set up as the control in these tests). The fish-in cycle took 6-8 weeks to complete (no matter which of the older products were used, and in the control tanks), and required daily or even twice daily water changes to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrite safe for the fish. At that, the tanks were very lightly stocked, and when more fish were added they had to cycle them again, and again with each addition of fish. Net result was 3-4 months before the tank was fully stocked.

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Side note: It was just about this time that I first read about the fishless cycle, and the couple of scientists (not the same ones as above) who really figured out how to do a fishless cycle to raise the maximum bacteria in the shortest time. This is the information on which I base my frequently re-posted article about the correct way to do the fishless cycle. Lots more research went into this article, too.

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So, there are many ways to cycle a tank. Knowing how and when the bacteria grow, and being able to monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are very important. 
Having severe restrictions on what can do makes it even more important that you figure out the 'worst case' that could happen, and to work within the restrictions to keep the fish safe.

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Totally other option:
Return the fish to the store. 
Do whatever you want to the tank, but finish it out by doing the fishless cycle, even without testing equipment. 
Then go buy new fish.


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## Eutexian (Mar 29, 2015)

Diana K said:


> Alternatively, doing the whole tank with garden soil, collected as you have suggested,


with a single spoon of soil? thats a very thin layer Ms K.

my suggestion was to inoculate the "soil" layer with live bacteria.. as suggested to me by Ms Walstad and backed up with an Israeli paper.

did you even read what I said.. or did the first line (the only part you quoted) cause too much excitement and excuse for a dissertation?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Diana, thank you for a very thorough and well-researched post.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Sure, you can use a spoonful or two as a starter culture, then you need to complete the cycle. Grow out that small population into a big enough population to handle the fish load.

I also read this, and am commenting that your spoonful of soil does not contain enough bacteria to fully cycle the tank including the possible nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite) from the soil based substrate plus the fish load. 


> ...substrate as she said in her book.





> 3.I want to move back my fish & plants in 1 day maximum. Is it possible?


The only way this is possible is to make sure the bacteria population is up to handling the entire fish load, and making sure the substrate will not cause problems. 
Using garden soil (the method suggested in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium) as substrate can cause problems. Sure it brings in nitrifying bacteria, but it also brings in organisms that do not live under water, die, and contribute more ammonia than the nitrifying organisms can handle. It takes several weeks to a month for the tank to be ready for fish.
A spoonful of soil does not bring in enough nitrifying bacteria. 
A bottle with the right species of bacteria will cycle the tank for fish, but not enough to allow you to use soil from the garden or store. Select another substrate. The tank will be fully cycled and you can stock the fish in there right away. 
This is not going to set up the soil based 'Walstad' tank. 
It is a reasonable way to set up a tank with a good substrate for plants, using any of several materials.

If you want to follow the instructions in the book, then you cannot restock the tank until the ammonia and nitrite are gone, and this is going to take time.

If you want better substrate than the gravel you have, and you want soil, you can prepare the substrate out of the tank (mineralize the soil) before use.

If you are willing to go without soil, but use another substrate that is good for plants, you could do this, too. Montmorillonite clays are good for this.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Actually, I was reading the original post, and making sure the person was not being mislead by outdated concepts. (paraphrase: bacteria in a bottle is never good) and had some hints on how to think about maintaining or replacing the bacteria population.

Seeding the bacteria population by adding a spoonful of carefully selected and harvested garden soil is a good way to add many species of microorganisms to the aquarium. But it will not fully cycle the tank in one day, as requested by the OP.


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## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

Actually you can prime the entire substrate layer by using an Actively Aerated Compost Tea. This creates a super charged tea of beneficial microbes that are what we use in the aquarium hobby to reduce ammonia and nitrites. 

Look up a AACT recipe, they usually involve some soil, compost, and worm castings, I use blackstrap molasses as well in my mix, helps feed the bacteria over the fungi. Toss into a 5 gallon bucket half filled with declorinated water, aerate for 24-36 hours, the more air the better seriously you can't have too much especially if you are using an aquarium pump. Then add your soil layer to the tank and wet with the tea or you can try to rinse your soil in your tea, but in my experience that gets messy. Then add your cap and VERY VERY carefully fill, if you disturb your cap at all you will have a super cloudy tank instantly from the tea.

I recently did a side by side test of this with my 2 20g in my room, one completely cycled in under 24 hours the other took a week to cycle.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

AACT is not geared towards the optimum growth of the organisms that have been proven to be the most active of the ammonia > nitrite > nitrate cycle in fresh water aquariums. 
These organisms do not feed on organic matter. They use simpler minerals and carbon sources (such as carbonate). This was one of the reasons it took so long to isolate and ID them: they did not grow well under most lab conditions such as having an organic sort of growth medium such as agar or other. Decomposers would grow under these conditions, but not the nitrifying species that we are the most interested in growing. 
Erratic results, different lengths of time for the 2 tanks to cycle suggests that one brew or tank set up was more conducive to the growth of the nitrifying organisms than the other. 

While AACT may be a good thing to add to the tank (sure sounds like a rich mix of decomposers) I would not depend on it as a way of:
a) Increasing the nitrogen cycle organisms
b) Reducing the amount of ammonia that may be produced from soil (garden soil, potting soil or specialized aquarium substrates). 

Many substrate materials generate ammonia when they are submerged. The only way to reduce this is to deal with it before putting them in the water. ie: mineralizing or other treatment. Could it be beneficial to add AACT to the soil? Sure could! Not denying that. Simply questioning its ability to reliably grow organisms that do not depend on organic matter for food.


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## ArsenalOfColor (Dec 26, 2015)

Diana K said:


> AACT is not geared towards the optimum growth of the organisms that have been proven to be the most active of the ammonia > nitrite > nitrate cycle in fresh water aquariums.
> These organisms do not feed on organic matter. They use simpler minerals and carbon sources (such as carbonate). This was one of the reasons it took so long to isolate and ID them: they did not grow well under most lab conditions such as having an organic sort of growth medium such as agar or other. Decomposers would grow under these conditions, but not the nitrifying species that we are the most interested in growing.
> Erratic results, different lengths of time for the 2 tanks to cycle suggests that one brew or tank set up was more conducive to the growth of the nitrifying organisms than the other.
> 
> ...


I definitely see your point of view on this Diana! And what your saying makes a lot of sense. But I also think a lot of the nitrifying bacteria are growing as well since the decaying matter in aquariums causes ammonia spikes, then the decaying matter (compost and worm castings) added to the tea generates ammonia and is a highly aerated environment, perfect for the bacteria we want, no?

Also I wonder if adding AACT to the soil helps generate bacteria that reduce the nitrates and break it down into forms that can be absorbed by plants.

I'm about to set up two more 10g tanks and two more 55g tanks this week and plan on recording some water conditions of various methods of speeding up the cycle.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I've made my own AACT--the recipe called for chicken manure! Terrestrial plants loved it, but I would worry that it is too high in dissolved nitrogen compounds to be safe for aquarium use.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

There are certainly a lot of different microorganisms in the soil, and in the aquariums. 
I am sure they each can thrive in a fairly wide range of conditions, but that there is probably a narrower range where they really thrive, and reproduce at something close to their maximum rate. 
As noted at several web sites with information about AACT, different starting ingredients result in different balances between bacteria and fungi since they feed on slightly different materials. 

I would be interested in seeing some tests on the water during this process, and compare the results to the optimum parameters for the nitrifying bacteria. 
As a general comment, most decomposition, composting and related processes tend to be acidic reacting. That is, the pH drops over time. This is noticeable in soil that has been amended with organic matter. I suspect it is going on in these highly aerated composting systems, too. 
Unfortunately, the nitrifying bacteria does not thrive in acidic conditions. They grow best at pH in the upper 7s and low 8s, and high carbonates (they get their carbon from carbonates). 

I think it would be worthwhile testing the water, and then adding carbonates (perhaps powdered oyster shell) and then seeing if there is a better response when the resulting material is added to an aquarium- If the nitrifying bacteria are given a good chance to grow, I think the aquarium would benefit by cycling a lot faster. 

The same organisms that handle the nitrogen cycle in our aquariums are found in soil. They thrive in high oxygen, humid locations. They do not have to be under water. In fact, they can die under water if the oxygen is too low.


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## Crooks (Sep 26, 2015)

@Diana
Do you perhaps know how nitrifying bacteria are actually grown to be bottled and sold? Like do they need to be adhered or something?


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I am not sure how they grow it for commercial production. Since they want a liquid, not solid, and the bacteria grow on solid surfaces, this does sound like a contradiction.

Guess:
They grow it on some kind of media then wash it off and concentrate it to bottle it?

Here is the paper that Dr. Hovanec wrote about how he figured out which species oxidized NO2 into NO3. (scroll down to the second paper)
http://www.drtimhovanec.com/Publications/ScientificPapers/ScientificPapers.html

Here is more recent research into the ammonia > nitrite organisms. This one specifies that they originally came form aquarium filters. I do not know how they multiplied the organisms, or kept them alive for longer studies, unless it was on more filter media. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3156731/


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## Crooks (Sep 26, 2015)

Found something:

http://www.springer.com/cda/content...87241432-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-539610-p37161956.

beware this is a download! also remove the dot. (I left it in there to prevent accidents)

Looks like they can be grown in shake flasks and such, which is pretty sweet. Honestly I feel that something like this could be done in a bucket at very low cell densities (!!!! never use media like these under non-sterile conditions), but would need some serious research beforehand.

Where's Tom Barr at when you need him? :O


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Well, at the hobby level you can run a fishless cycle in an aquarium or any other container of water. This would grow enough bacteria to fully stock the tank with a reasonable to slightly high load of fish. The bacteria will be growing on the media in the filter, and on all the other surfaces in the tank. 
I was working on putting a lot of biomedia in a 20 gallon tank (filling it with bio-bale) and doing the fishless cycle. Goal: Grow LOTS of bacteria, then split up the bio-bale among several tank, and stock them. (I was doing this outside, and got busy with something else, then it got too cold... tank is still sitting there, growing a bit green with algae)

While I have shared fishless cycled media with friends who are setting up a new tank, I would not try to sell this. I have no idea how much bacteria there actually is on the media. The friends I shared this with are experienced fish keepers who know how to handle a new tank.


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