# Is there really a Pogostemon helferi "Red"?



## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Hello,

I've found some photos of a Pogostemon helferi "Red" in the web, and I wonder if it's really a genetically fixed form that tends more to reddish coloration than "normal" Downoi when cultivated under the same conditions in the long term.
Photos on the Cal Aqua Labs facebook site seem to suggest that it's a different variant, but I still doubt that it's enough evidence.



__ https://www.facebook.com/calaqualabs/posts/772369939471242



By any chance, has anyone here already experiences with the (alleged?) P. h. "Red"?

Greetings,
Heiko


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I don't know, but I view it with suspicion.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

Sorry Cavan but there 100% is.

I have it growing now. Imported from UK. I bought it from a member... I will have it for sale soon, but it certainly wont be cheap..

Grows as fast as regular downoi. Very easy, hardy plant IMO.

Heres a picture.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

Here's pic.....


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

There is the downoi red turning pinkish from the middle. Itll turn more red. The plant to the right is an erio King Crimson that isnt doing too great since it spent a while in the mail.....


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Why would I be sorry? I just know how it is with a lot of these new plants that show up and the ridiculous names and hype that often come with them.

Is that _Eriocaulon quinquangulare_? Would be a shame if a plant with a real name took on a trade name instead.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

I see what your saying Cavan. When I first saw red downoi, i thought it was grown under high lighting. Its a real plant. Pogostemon Helferi "Red"

When mine turn redder, ill give a side by side with my regular green. BIG difference.

Eriocaulon quinquangulare? Yes, i believe thats it. The guy who sold it is selling it as King Crimson from India. Looks very similar to Eriocaulon quinquangulare........ Could be the same thing. I hope mine survives. Its looking a little weak... Well see by next week.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

Cavan. Eriocaulon quinquangulare is not aquatic right?


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## UAHUA (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm with Cavan on this one. Any of these "new/rare" plants have to be viewed with suspicion. Why is there no info of these plants other than a couple of pictures here and there? And if they really do grow just the same as the regular downoi what justifies a higher price other than greed? Color and growth can vary from different conditions. 

I will use some of the variegated varieties out there as an example. Variegation can occur for several different reasons but usually it is a genetic mistake that occasionally happens in nature. White variegation happens from a plant not being able to produce pigment in that area. Orange, yellow and lighter green happens from a lack of production of chlorophyll allowing the orange carotenoid and yellow xanthophyll pigments to show. Pink, red and purple are the anthocyanin pigments appearing. If in high enough quantities they mask the green chlorophyll. The same things that cause this happens in deciduous trees in the fall, the only difference is variegated plants leaves are like this all the time.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

Uahua, the problem with your statement is that I am growing this plant side by side with my regular Downoi. I also thought that this plant was probably grown under different conditions, but when i actually received it, i knew right away it was different.

I understand what you mean about a plant becoming variegated, but after that plant has stabilized, the variegated plant turns into a new strain. 

I had this plant for about 1 month and here it is growing next to my regular downoi. Growth pattern is exactly the same. Very hardy and pretty fast growing...

I guess pictures says a thousand words.

Right plant is the Red Downoi. As you can see the pink middle and it will turn more pink.... Left are my regular.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

I think it's a more general issue with all these different forms of the same plant species that pop up as novelties. Provided that there are really genetically fixed, albeit subtle differences between the plants: these may be evident for the owners of the plants. But the other thing is to make it convincing for others; that happens too seldom.

In cases like that, the best way would always be publishing an article where the cultivation of the different strains under the same conditions over a longer period (at least several months) is shown and the culture parameters are given. 
Eventually that would also increase the interest in the respective plants.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I have a day lily that has variegated leaves. The thing is even the runners from this plant are only about 20% variegated. The rest resort to green. I have no idea why it does that. I don't think the seed would be reliable at all. Cultivars like that are great but like with blue fescue many are not reliably the color they purport to be. 

I tend to think there are a number of crypts that vary by water chemistry more than by cultivar. People sell strains of that plant that look nothing like what they are supposed to.


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## UAHUA (Feb 2, 2010)

If this plant really is a stable cultivar then I would expect to see it more often and it would definitely have to be in a tank for more than a month to prove to me that it is stable. There is an older thread from several years ago about a person that had a white downoi and if that truely was a stable cultivar as well why do we not see white downoi for sale now? Plant to plant health and minor color difference are dependent on what the plant and the plant roots have acces to. If I see this color variation of downoi for sale 2 years from now then I will eat my words but until that point I have a hard time believing this is a stable cultivar.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

UAHUA, you might eat your words sooner than that. I have never heard or seen a white downoi, but this red downoi is true. I wont talk anymore.

I will let the pictures talk..........................................

I will post an updated side by side shot soon. Ive had this plant for more than 1 month. Ready to top soon. New growth also getting more and more pinkish.

I also bet you have never seen a Ludwigia WHITE. Yes its white. Looks and grows just like a Pantanal but white. I also own this plant. If you do a search on it, you also wont find any info on it. Just because you cant find info on it, doesnt mean this is not a stable strain.

I will also post a picture of this so that there are no arguments and he said she said.

Let the pictures talk... All grown in same tank.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

This is a picture from my phone from last week. White ludwigia...

Downoi is pretty much the same... I will update next week


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## UAHUA (Feb 2, 2010)

krissy said:


> UAHUA, you might eat your words sooner than that. I have never heard or seen a white downoi, but this red downoi is true. I wont talk anymore.
> 
> I will let the pictures talk..........................................
> 
> ...


Like I already said I will eat my words if this plant is being sold on a regular basis 2 years from now. And yes I have seen a "few" pictures of Ludwigia white but it's just the same few pictures. How long have you have the Ludwigia in your tank because by the looks of the picture it looks like it was just recently planted. And please do tell me why there is so little info on these new strains? As much as plants are studied and documented I would think there would be more than just a select few pictures. My point being when bringing up the "white" downoi was because of a thread from several years ago when a person said they working on a stable white strain of pogostemon helferi. Why is this plant not being sold if it was truely stable? I'm not trying to argue the fact that you have a plant that is showing different coloration than normal but I'm not 100% positive that this "red downoi" is a stable cultivar yet.

And in case you're curious here is the thread about the alleged "white downoi".

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum/showthread.php/70125-White-and-Rare


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

This is becoming pointless and does not have to be a debate... 

I do not have to make a believer out of you. You will eat your words on both the red downoi and the ludwigia white, i guarantee it because I am growing both in my tank in same conditions....

There are many variations of STABLE plants being grown outside the USA in the UK and Asia that you cannot find any information on..............

Both will be more available for sale soon, although prices will stay high.

The white downoi is silly because that plant just looks like a downoi that was starved of nitrogen. 

No more talking. Pictures will follow soon...


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

New pics....

Red downoi next to my regular downoi.

Obvious difference.

Also, ludwigia WHITE....


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

A lot of pale growth in that tank. Assuming it's not some deficiency, it still looks much less robust than regular P. helferi, and isn't really that red looking to me... 

But everyone likes different things...I had Downoi that looked just like that. I threw it out and considered it a failure to thrive and blamed old aquasoil.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

UAHUA said:


> If this plant really is a stable cultivar then I would expect to see it more often and it would definitely have to be in a tank for more than a month to prove to me that it is stable. There is an older thread from several years ago about a person that had a white downoi and if that truely was a stable cultivar as well why do we not see white downoi for sale now? Plant to plant health and minor color difference are dependent on what the plant and the plant roots have acces to. If I see this color variation of downoi for sale 2 years from now then I will eat my words but until that point I have a hard time believing this is a stable cultivar.


I've had white HC and downoi, but the problem is because they lack chlorophyll they grow way slower than the normal variety, thus getting outcompeted. This way I lost the Hemianthus. The Pogostemon, I lost during the time I moved to my new house. White varieties just grow too slow to spread them out to other people. My white Anubias is still so little I don't sell it. And by the time it has a new leave, the oldest leaves gets algae.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

A lot of pale growth in my tank!? And my red downoi doesn't look healthy??

You need glasses. A THICK PAIR.

My red downoi is super healthy and is exploding in growth!!!


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

3 days ago


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

krissy said:


> A lot of pale growth in my tank!? And my red downoi doesn't look healthy??
> 
> You need glasses. A THICK PAIR.
> 
> My red downoi is super healthy and is exploding in growth!!!


Yes. A lot of pale growth and your red Downoi doesn't look healthy. I am seeing white centers.

You have a nutrient deficiency, but whatever. Constructive criticism is clearly not what you're after; you'd rather just insult strangers.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Easy folks...


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

My tank looks like theres pale growth and deficiencies!?

My point proven... I won't say anymore. Pictures don't lie. Don't be mad because you have neither red downoi nor white ludwigia. This whole thread was simply a question if this plant existed. It clearly does. There are people who love to say otherwise blindly... I was also skeptical before I bought it thinking it was a grown in different conditions but once owning the plant, it put my skepticism to rest. I commented on this thread to answer the thread starters question. Not to hear your opinion of my tank in order to justify your skepticism against a red downoi.





JustLikeAPill said:


> Yes. A lot of pale growth and your red Downoi doesn't look healthy. I am seeing white centers.
> 
> You have a nutrient deficiency, but whatever. Constructive criticism is clearly not what you're after; you'd rather just insult strangers.


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## UAHUA (Feb 2, 2010)

krissy said:


> My tank looks like theres pale growth and deficiencies!?
> 
> My point proven... I won't say anymore. Pictures don't lie. Don't be mad because you have neither red downoi nor white ludwigia. This whole thread was simply a question if this plant existed. It clearly does. There are people who love to say otherwise blindly... I was also skeptical before I bought it thinking it was a grown in different conditions but once owning the plant, it put my skepticism to rest. I commented on this thread to answer the thread starters question. Not to hear your opinion of my tank in order to justify your skepticism against a red downoi.


There's no need to turn this thread into a playground argument. It was a simple discussion where different people are sharing their own opinions. That is what threads are for. People share and express their views. While I don't agree that you're tank has pale growth or deficiencies, as a matter of fact I think everything looks really nice and showing good growth I'm still not convinced that this "red" downoi is a stable cultivar. I have had Rotala macrandra show several different colors in my tank just from being in different locations throughout the tank. All of the stems came from the same source yet some stems started to show the variegated look that I have seen some selling as variegated macrandra and others were bright red with no variegation whatsoever. Like I have said earlier plant to plant health and color difference are dependent on what the plant and plant roots have access to.

Keep posting pictures because I would love to see what this plant looks like 6 months or more from now. It takes a more than just a few pictures to convince me of something. It's not a personal jab at you so don't take it that way but when there is little to no proof this is a stable cultivar I believe the burden of proof lies on those stating it is a stable cultivar.


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## AteItOffTheFloor (Oct 8, 2014)

More noyz boyz

more noyzzz


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## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

Easy easy easy guys

The red downoi is clearly different with different coloration and veins. Clearly seen in the pictures. I just wouldn't be surprised if this is a morph cultivated and kept recultivated which in the end my revert to its original form. Which would be pogostemon helferi.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

UAHUA said:


> There's no need to turn this thread into a playground argument. It was a simple discussion where different people are sharing their own opinions. That is what threads are for. People share and express their views. While I don't agree that you're tank has pale growth or deficiencies, as a matter of fact I think everything looks really nice and showing good growth I'm still not convinced that this "red" downoi is a stable cultivar. I have had Rotala macrandra show several different colors in my tank just from being in different locations throughout the tank. All of the stems came from the same source yet some stems started to show the variegated look that I have seen some selling as variegated macrandra and others were bright red with no variegation whatsoever. Like I have said earlier plant to plant health and color difference are dependent on what the plant and plant roots have access to.
> 
> Keep posting pictures because I would love to see what this plant looks like 6 months or more from now. It takes a more than just a few pictures to convince me of something. It's not a personal jab at you so don't take it that way but when there is little to no proof this is a stable cultivar I believe the burden of proof lies on those stating it is a stable cultivar.


NP UaHUA. I will keep updating pictures!!!


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

The Red Downoi issue was discussed in the Aquatic Gardeners facebook group, that inspired me to ask for that also in this forum. Karen Randall wrote on FB that she saw color variation from green to reddish-brownish in the natural P. helferi habitats in Thailand (also shown in several photos from Claus Christensen and others), and also different coloration in cultivated downoi in the greenhouses of Tropica, but they weren't seen as stable forms which were worthwile to be selected.
Of course, phenotypic variation like that can always be caused by both, environmental factors (in the nature different sun exposition or so) as well as different genotypes within the population. And presence of genetically different individuals is the normal case in natural plant populations.

So let's continue to test it, and again, it would be best to publish the results as article in an aquarium magazine or the like. Even if the result turned out as negative and the red downoi as instable variation.


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## UAHUA (Feb 2, 2010)

Any updates of this plant? I have yet to see many people selling it or even talking about it so I'm curious to see some updated pictures.


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

This downoi red is already old news... skeptical people like justlikeapill are only mad because they don't have it....


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

As y ou can see by my 2nd pic... left side is regular downoi...

Right side is red....

I took a larger picture so you can compare...

Original question proved.... 

Pm me if your interested in buying. These are not cheap..


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## krissy (Jun 3, 2014)

Ludwigia white..


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