# Vals in sunlight



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I was wondering if anybody could help me with this... I potted some vals in a couple of inches of soil with a gravel layer on top. I put the pots in my pond outside which gets lots of bright direct sunlight for the entire day. The vals have turned a deep reddish brown color. Could this mean that they are dying or just turned red? Anybody ever have this happen?

-ricardo


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

I have experienced Vals turning red/brown in my former planted tank.


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Before I tore down my 33-gallon aquarium with vals and livebearers, a part of it received sunlight, and the vals in that part had a slightly reddish-tone.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

I have no experience with vals, but my salvinia turned reddish-brown when we put it in our goldfish ponds outside. I thought it was dying, but it's reproducing and doing just fine, just red. I think a lot of water plants turn reddish when in strong light.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks for your input folks! I was worried b/c I had previously put vals into this pond and they turned brown and soon died but I think that's b/c it was still too cold outside.... This is a different shade. It's def. a deep dark red... I'll post a pic a little later...

-ricardo


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Healthy Vals out in sunlight are usually bright green. Your Vals may be adjusting to sunlight, cooler water, or some other new condition. I wonder what other plants are out in that pond? 

I suspect a nutrient deficiency (phosphates? calcium?) or nutrient imbalance or allelopathy from other plants.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

dwalstad said:


> I suspect a nutrient deficiency (phosphates? calcium?) or nutrient imbalance or allelopathy from other plants.


Hi,

some people dismiss the existence of allelopathy, others say it's real. How significant impact allelopathy has on plants in our aquariums?

Thank you
Edward


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Edward said:


> Hi,
> 
> some people dismiss the existence of allelopathy, others say it's real. How significant impact allelopathy has on plants in our aquariums?
> 
> ...


In the Alleopathy chapter in her book she discusses this in detail. I think in summary she says because the aquarium is a closed environment sharing the same water, alleopathy is rampant in home aquaria. She offers examples of healthy plants dying away in some tanks and thriving in others (with different plant species), and algae disappearing even though the water is nutrient-rich.


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## Lawrence Lee (Jul 17, 2004)

Are you sure it is a Val and not a Blyxa? In bright lights Blyxa aubertii gets from bronze to copper-gold in colour.

Vals are green in bright light. In the wild over my side of the pond at the equator, they are also green.


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## Tony65 (Jun 3, 2006)

There are some varieties of val available that turn red in strong light

E.g. http://www.tropical-aquarium-plants.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=68&osCsid=5448c9261ee04f6783de56c45bbb67a1


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## goldielovr (Apr 12, 2006)

Tony65 said:


> There are some varieties of val available that turn red in strong light
> 
> E.g. http://www.tropical-aquarium-plants.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=68&osCsid=5448c9261ee04f6783de56c45bbb67a1[/QUOTE
> 
> Yes, though I don't have a link to offer, I too have seen several sites offering red versions of val, and color is often controlled by how much light plants get, so perhaps yours are red ones and you didn't know it until you put them outside. Both plants and fish get mislabled as to varieties too.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks everyone for your comments, suggestions and links to further information. The vals, after turning red, proceeded to die. Not sure of the cause but I seem to have problems with all the plants in this pond. Namely, they all die. Even the water lettuce yellows and slowly dies off... Not sure what's going on, gots to do lots of testing, I reckon...

-ricardo


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Are you fertilizing at all? If your fish load isn't large enough that could be the problem.


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## Lawrence Lee (Jul 17, 2004)

flagg said:


> The vals, after turning red, proceeded to die. Not sure of the cause but I seem to have problems with all the plants in this pond. Namely, they all die. Even the water lettuce yellows and slowly dies off...
> -ricardo


Try adding a bit of KNO3. Water Lettuce turning yellow in sunlight is a sign of nitrate deficiency. Similarly, red plants turning very red (everything else being constant) is a sign that KNO3 is needed.

If you're afraid of putting that stuff into your pond, test it outside first. Drop some KNO3 into a bucket of pond water, put some water lettuce into this bucket and float the bucket back in the pond to keep temperatures manageable.

If it springs back to life, you know what to do next,

Good luck.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Lawrence Lee said:


> Try adding a bit of KNO3. Water Lettuce turning yellow in sunlight is a sign of nitrate deficiency. Similarly, red plants turning very red (everything else being constant) is a sign that KNO3 is needed.
> 
> If you're afraid of putting that stuff into your pond, test it outside first. Drop some KNO3 into a bucket of pond water, put some water lettuce into this bucket and float the bucket back in the pond to keep temperatures manageable.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'm gonna do exactly that! I'll let you know what happens....

-ricardo


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Two years ago I set up an outdoor aquarium with a substrate of clay subsoil (before I read the section of _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ which warns against using subsoils) and gravel and planted it with easy-to-grow plants, including Vals. Strangely, none of the plants did particularly well for the first six months or so, and I noticed that the Vals turned a deep red and slowly died off. Snails did not survive long in the tank, and I never saw any small invertebrates swimming around. I wonder if it could have been metal toxicity from the subsoil that was causing the problem? Now that the tank is two years old, the snails and other invertebrates are thriving and so are the plants (_Azolla fililculoides_, _A. pinnata_, _Glossostigma elatino ides_, _Eleocharis acicularis_, _Egeria_ species, _Ceratophyllum demersum_, Java Moss).

So, Ricardo, how old is this pond? Did you use the same soil that you use in your tanks? What animals do you have in the pond? Are any of the other plants doing well?

From Alex.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Miss Fishy said:


> So, Ricardo, how old is this pond? Did you use the same soil that you use in your tanks? What animals do you have in the pond? Are any of the other plants doing well?
> 
> From Alex.


Hey Alex:

The pond is about a month and a half old. It's 60 gals. I used the same soil as my tanks but not in the entire pond; I potted the plants. That could certainly mean that the water lettuce doesn't have enough nutrients since I also have a home made filter that might be taking out a lot of the nutrients through bio. filtration.... The other pond plants are doing well for the most part.

I noticed also that the vals did not die. I pulled out the pots finally noticed that the vals have been growing! Only the old leaves redded and died. When I took the vals out, I noticed that they had grown new leaves!. The plants are now short and bushy! So they're doing well after all.

As for the water lettuce, I've been adding the KNO3 at the rate of .5 teaspoon every couple of days and the water lettuce appears to be improving. It's also taking on that more "lettucy" kind of shape that it gets in full sun. I still need to test the KNO3 to see what the best dosage to use.

-ricardo


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## snowy (Jun 6, 2006)

What is the pond made of? If it is made of concrete and is only one and a half months old, then it is quite possible that it is/was not fully cured and that the alkalinity being leached has retarded growth and caused the die-back.

You really need to test at least the Ph, although it would have been interesting to see what the paramaters were when the problem was first noticed.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Miss Fishy said:


> Two years ago I set up an outdoor aquarium with a substrate of clay subsoil (before I read the section of _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ which warns against using subsoils) and gravel and planted it with easy-to-grow plants, including Vals. Strangely, none of the plants did particularly well for the first six months or so, and I noticed that the Vals turned a deep red and slowly died off. Snails did not survive long in the tank, and I never saw any small invertebrates swimming around. I wonder if it could have been metal toxicity from the subsoil that was causing the problem? Now that the tank is two years old, the snails and other invertebrates are thriving and so are the plants.
> 
> From Alex.


Miss Fishy,

Intersesting observation... I suspect that your subsoil did release heavy metals (especially aluminum) into the water. Heavy metals are especially toxic to invertebrates.

Metal solubilization and release (from the low pH and/or the low organic matter characteristics of subsoils) will correct itself over time following submergence. For example, acid soils invariably neutralize (my book, page 130).

I'm surprised that you were willing to wait this one out. It just proves that even a "bad" soil can improve over time.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

snowy said:


> What is the pond made of? If it is made of concrete and is only one and a half months old, then it is quite possible that it is/was not fully cured and that the alkalinity being leached has retarded growth and caused the die-back.
> 
> You really need to test at least the Ph, although it would have been interesting to see what the paramaters were when the problem was first noticed.


Hey Snowy: The tank is made of hard plastic. It was bought at home depot. I wish I had tested the water before, but I didn't. Coulda, should, woulda. In any case I did finally get around to testing the water. The ammonia and nitrites were at 0. Nitrates at 5ppm. KH is at 5 dKH, didn't test GH. The most surprising? pH = 9+! My test kit's chart did not go high enough to determine the pH accurately (and this is in a high range pH test kit). In any case, it's definetly above 9. So clearly the water is too alkaline. Interestingly, the fish are all thriving. The guppies are reproducing and their color looks spectacular. Same with the white clouds. The goldfish also looks healthy. My question is then, should I even bother to try to bring the pH back down? If so how?

-ricardo


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> I'm surprised that you were willing to wait this one out. It just proves that even a "bad" soil can improve over time.


I was disapointed that the plants didn't do well for so long, so I didn't look at the tank much. Since it is outside on the ground below eye level I almost forgot it was there. By the time I thought about tearing it down and starting again, I had finished reading _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ and thought it would be interesting to see if the soil would indeed improve with time. Well, as I said, it did and the tank is now very nice to look at.

From Alex.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Ricardo, since your fish are all doing well and nearly all your plants are doing well, is it really nescessary to mess around with the pH? From reading other posts here it seems like a lot of trouble to try and lower pH. 

From Alex.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Alex: Thanks for reminding me that one should leave well enough alone when things are going ok. That's what I plan on doing. Although, I've noticed that the plants are turning yellow again, after not adding the KNO3 for about a week so I'm going to dose that periodically.

-ricardo


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Well, I can only assume these days that the vals continue to grow, although it's hard to tell because the surface of the pond is completely covered w/ water lettuce, water hyacinth and a couple lilly pads. I'm gonna sell a bunch of the water lettuce to my lfs along with half a dozen angels. I might even sell them some of the guppies that have reproduced, well, like guppies, in the pond. Also, a little frog moved in! He's so cute! I think it's cool that the local wildlife has moved into the pond. Now maybe he/she will find a good partner...

-ricardo


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

That's great that your pond is doing so well! I wish a frog would come to live in one of my ponds! I did have two pet frogs once, many years ago. They were quite tame and would sit in my hand, staring at me. Do you know what kind of frog yours is?

I am curious as to why you are adding potassium nitrate to an "El Natural" pond. If you think your water is deficient in potassium, why not add it in the form of potassium chloride, rather than potassium nitrate? If you think your plants may be yellow due to a nitrogen deficiency, why not just feed the animals in the pond more?

I remember reading a few discussions here about adding potassium nitrate to soil based tanks, and Diana advises against it because of possible problems it could cause through nitrate respiration. Here is a link to one such discussion: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/19885-wet-thumb-forum-nitrates-2.html?highlight=potassium+nitrate.

From Alex.


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