# Ca and Mg help!



## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

I tested my water tonight and my Ca and Mg extremely high. 

My water param:
Ph: 7
No2-:0ppm
No3-:5ppm (not sure how accurate the API test kit is)
NH3/Nh4+: 0ppm
Po4: 0.5 (nutrafin test kit)
Kh:4
Gh: 7dgh
Ca: 60ppm (API test kit with 3 drop of second bottle)
Mg: 88.43ppm (from calculation)

Is this reasonable? I am also seeing some Ca deficiency symptoms. (deformed leaves on new growth and they are a lot smaller than old growth) I am dosing 5ml of pps pro each day to ~50g of water.

I am planning on doing 50% pure r/o water change tomorrow to reduce the ca and mg level. Will that work?

Thanks in advance,
dynafire


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

I don't understand how you can have the levels of Ca and Mg that you indicate and be showing signs of Ca deficiency. Does your area typically have very "hard" water? I have problems with Ca and Mg deficiencies here in Seattle, but our water is very, very, soft.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

I do not understand why there are signs of ca deficiencies either. My water is pretty soft last time i checked. I would have taken a picture but my sis. took my camera with her so I am in a pickle at this point. I will post a picture as soon as I get my camera back. On the side note, what should my water param. be at end of the day when doing pps pro? Is it safe to increase the dosage if I want more rapid growth with high light and co2 injection?

Thanks
David


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

When I first started planted tanks a little over a year ago I used the Seachem line. It worked great but as I added a couple of more tanks it started to get expensive. Then I went to PPS-Pro, which worked well but I had problems with plant deficiencies and slow growth. I started the EI method about a month ago and so far it has been the best. I have been having excellent plant growth, including my first Anubias flower. With all the extra growth, I discoved my Ca and Mg deficiencies become more evident, probably due to the faster growth rates.

If it were me, I would try doing some CaCl (Calcium Chloride) and MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) and see it the problem diminishes. I usually see improvement in a week or so after dosing. I dose the above per Rex Grigg's dosing recommendation. http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/dosing.html


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Your Ca and Mg are very high. So high that I wouldn't worry about it, unless your Ca is coming from CaCO3. I see something else off here, without a doubt; your NO3 is low, your PO4 high. If you increase PO4 levels high enough, NO3 uptake will increase. Once you dose enough NO3, I'm willing to bet that your red plants will turn green.

Also, look at your CO2... odds are you don't have enough of it. Right now, it's an extremely typical problem in the hobby given all the over-watted light around. A lack of CO2 looks stunningly like a lack of Ca in some ways, given that both are vital for plant structure.

What's going on for dosing with your K+? Also, what're your hardware specs with regards to lighting, column volume, and CO2?

-Philosophos


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

What plants are you seeing deficiency on and can you post a picture of them?

It might not be deficiency, there is a slim chance that the problem is too much of a nutrient. But we need pictures and details.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi dynafire,
> 
> When I first started planted tanks a little over a year ago I used the Seachem line. It worked great but as I added a couple of more tanks it started to get expensive. Then I went to PPS-Pro, which worked well but I had problems with plant deficiencies and slow growth. I started the EI method about a month ago and so far it has been the best. I have been having excellent plant growth, including my first Anubias flower. With all the extra growth, I discoved my Ca and Mg deficiencies become more evident, probably due to the faster growth rates.
> 
> If it were me, I would try doing some CaCl (Calcium Chloride) and MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) and see it the problem diminishes. I usually see improvement in a week or so after dosing. I dose the above per Rex Grigg's dosing recommendation. http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/dosing.html


Hi Seattle_Aquarist,

I have tried the EI method with my first experiment with a planted tank. I have to admit that the plants grow well but I had a lot of algae issues and got tired of dealing with it an tore it down. I am giving another shot at the tank with pps pro dosing and so far no sign of algae. The tank is up and running around 2 months now just recently I am seeing these deficiency signs.

I am very hesitant to add anymore ca and mg to the tank at this point. Could there be anything else that I am missing out?


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Philosophos said:


> Your Ca and Mg are very high. So high that I wouldn't worry about it, unless your Ca is coming from CaCO3. I see something else off here, without a doubt; your NO3 is low, your PO4 high. If you increase PO4 levels high enough, NO3 uptake will increase. Once you dose enough NO3, I'm willing to bet that your red plants will turn green.
> 
> Also, look at your CO2... odds are you don't have enough of it. Right now, it's an extremely typical problem in the hobby given all the over-watted light around. A lack of CO2 looks stunningly like a lack of Ca in some ways, given that both are vital for plant structure.
> 
> ...


Hi Philosophos,

I just remembered that I have some crushed corals in my filter. (That could be why for the high Ca level) My LFS recommended me to add some crushed corals because my Ph was kind of low when I was cycling my tank. But anyways, I am not totally sure if my No3 is correct. I tried to calibrate the test kit with a known No3 value but the color does not match up with the card. I even went to the extremes to test the kit using less than 2oz of r/o water with 1/4 tsp of KNo3 and the test shows 10ppm. So I don't know if I can trust my No3 numbers. As for K+ I am using K2SO4.

But here is my setup:
Tank: 29g show tank connected to a 20g holding tank with 20g diy sump (total volume of water is around 50g with about 3in of eco-complete in both 29 and 20)
Heater: 300w stealth heater
Light: 36" 4x39w T5 hang at 8in. above the 29g 
Bulb: 2 midday, 1 aquaflora and 1 power grow (had two aquaflora before but the tank is yellow looking so I switch one out)
Co2: 25lb pressurized with diy reactor.

Routine:
Light: On from 12-3 and 5-10
Dosage: 5ml pps pro and 5ml csm+b everyday
Co2 level: I have a drop checker with 4dkh solution which seems to stay at blue-green color even though my bubble counter is at about 15bps.
WC once every two weeks

If you need more info about the set up please ask.

Thanks


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Zapins said:


> What plants are you seeing deficiency on and can you post a picture of them?
> 
> It might not be deficiency, there is a slim chance that the problem is too much of a nutrient. But we need pictures and details.


Hi Zapins,

Plants that show deficiencies are Hygrophila polysperma 'Sunset' the other plant looks like ALTERNANTHERA REINECKII 'ROSAEFOLIA'. I will try to get a picture with my cell tomorrow and see how it is going to turn out.

Thanks for the help


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

How long have these plants been in this tank? Where were they kept before? Is there any chance there is sea salt in the tank?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

dynafire said:


> I just remembered that I have some crushed corals in my filter. (That could be why for the high Ca level) My LFS recommended me to add some crushed corals because my Ph was kind of low when I was cycling my tank.


Ya... they'll do stuff like that to you. I wouldn't listen to them. Your pH shouldn't be a problem with most amazonian fish unless you're dropping down below 6pH (often lower) and you've got a lack of trace essential to osmotic pressure, which won't happen anyhow if you've got enough ferts in the water. Don't go chasing KH goals around. Your bag of CaCO3 also has a frustratingly low level of bioavailable calcium. Take it out, start dosing CaSO4 or CaCL2.



dynafire said:


> But anyways, I am not totally sure if my No3 is correct. I tried to calibrate the test kit with a known No3 value but the color does not match up with the card. I even went to the extremes to test the kit using less than 2oz of r/o water with 1/4 tsp of KNo3 and the test shows 10ppm. So I don't know if I can trust my No3 numbers. As for K+ I am using K2SO4.


If you can't trust the test kit, get a new one or move to EI style dosing. PMDD is hard to do without test kits. You could even hybridize and re-top the nutrients monthly to the desired level with one 50% WC.

Your light level is insanely high for your CO2. Work on getting better CO2 diffusion; bubble count means nothing if the distribution isn't there. Try playing with 1/2 the level of light if you're getting overwhelmed. Contrary to popular opinion, you can grow, "high light" plants in low light; it's about CO2, and simply keeping about 40-50mmol PAR delivered to each plant as a base line.

-Philosophos


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Zapins said:


> How long have these plants been in this tank? Where were they kept before? Is there any chance there is sea salt in the tank?


The plants have been in the tank for about 3 weeks now. I purchased them from other forum members so I am not sure where they are kept before me. I don't remember using any sea salt unless they are leeched from the crushed corals.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Philosophos said:


> Ya... they'll do stuff like that to you. I wouldn't listen to them. Your pH shouldn't be a problem with most amazonian fish unless you're dropping down below 6pH (often lower) and you've got a lack of trace essential to osmotic pressure, which won't happen anyhow if you've got enough ferts in the water. Don't go chasing KH goals around. Your bag of CaCO3 also has a frustratingly low level of bioavailable calcium. Take it out, start dosing CaSO4 or CaCL2.


I just spend the whole day messing with the tank. I basically upgrade the display tank to 40g breeder. I added about 20g of r/o water and top it off with my old water. All dosing is on hold right now until I figure out how to dose. I need to order some CaSO4 or CaCL2. Btw which one is safer and more convenient to use from your experience?



Philosophos said:


> If you can't trust the test kit, get a new one or move to EI style dosing. PMDD is hard to do without test kits. You could even hybridize and re-top the nutrients monthly to the desired level with one 50% WC.


What do you mean by "hybridize"?



Philosophos said:


> Your light level is insanely high for your CO2. Work on getting better CO2 diffusion; bubble count means nothing if the distribution isn't there. Try playing with 1/2 the level of light if you're getting overwhelmed. Contrary to popular opinion, you can grow, "high light" plants in low light; it's about CO2, and simply keeping about 40-50mmol PAR delivered to each plant as a base line.


I am trying to fix that each day by increasing the co2. I am using the diy reactor design from this forum and almost everyone is giving positive feedback. As for me, I don't know what I am doing wrong for the reactor not to function at its optimal level. Too much or not enough flow through the reactor? No bioballs inside the chamber? I am currently testing these out. If I decrease my lighting then should I go with 3 bulbs? Which ones should I take out?

-dynafire


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You'll need a good method to start from. EI shouldn't cause algae, unless you've got poor circulation or low CO2. PPS pro can work as well though. Both are proven methods.

When I say hybridize, I mean dose PPS pro if you like, but calculate in for a partial nutrient re-set. change out 50% of the water once a month, adding enough nutrients to make it so that 50% of the water has ideal nutrient parameters. The entire system will stay more balanced this way.

CaSO4 or CaCl2 have both been used on some very nice tanks. I was using CaSO4 up until a couple of days ago, and dosing it too light. CaSO4 is a PITA; it has poor solubility, so you can't premix in to DI water for your own liquid ferts, and you have to pre-mix the stuff in a quart/liter or so of tank water if you want to dry dose. The CaCl2 took no effort, it comes in easy to handle granules which is great when weighing, and the plants are already showing signs of improvement since the switch.

-Philosophos


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Philosophos said:


> You'll need a good method to start from. EI shouldn't cause algae, unless you've got poor circulation or low CO2. PPS pro can work as well though. Both are proven methods.
> 
> When I say hybridize, I mean dose PPS pro if you like, but calculate in for a partial nutrient re-set. change out 50% of the water once a month, adding enough nutrients to make it so that 50% of the water has ideal nutrient parameters. The entire system will stay more balanced this way.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation Philosophos. I am leaning towards PPS pro b/c I will not have the time to do weekly water changes every week when school starts back up. I will order some CaCl2 soon. On the side note, is there a sure way to calculate the total amount of water volume in the tank other than "guesstimating"?

A question about pps pro that I am looking for an answer. Dosing 1ml per 10g of water will put how much ppm of each nutrient to the system?

-Dynafire


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

I also got a new nitrate test kit and there is a note saying that "The Tetratest NO3- kit measures total nitrate ion (NO3-) concentration. To obtain the value for Nitrate-Nitrogen concentration in mg/l the value obtained with the kit should be divided by 4.4." So should I divide my result by 4.4 since I am testing for Nitrogen?

-Dynafire


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If those are the instructions, probably. I'm unfamiliar with Tetra's test kits though; API, hagen and red sea are what I'm experienced with. I wouldn't call them all great test kits, but API seems to work well enough, and red sea isn't too bad for the less specific tests.

Calibrating test kits is always a good way of figuring things out, and one of the many reasons I use a scale.

-Philosophos


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Hmm... the blyxias are pearling today, does that mean the nutrients are sort of in balance? My drop checker is light green for about a day now. I lowered the flow through my reactor couple days ago so I am thinking my flow was too high to fully dissolve the co2. Also, the newer leaves on the plants are bigger and are not curling. I guess everything is coming together. Thanks for the help!

-Dynafire


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Pearling is a decent sign. It isn't required for healthy plants to pearl, but if they are pearling, you're doing something right. It's a little early on to draw any concrete conclusions; keep the method up for a month, and see what happens.

Oh, and for water column size, I do have a preferred method when already in the tank. 

First Take a properly measured amount of substrate, fill the gaps with water, pour that water in to another measuring cup, and figure out the substrate;water ratio. From there, calculate the area of your substrate, use the ratio to figure out how much room the gravel is taking up. 

Next, hardscape can be calculated with water displacement if taking it out is an option. Measure the amount of water going in to the container when the hardscape is already in it, then measure how much more is required to reach the same water level without the hardscape.

Alternatively if you can't take the hardscape out, geometry is an option. It's harder to calculate, it isn't quite as accurate, but you can get a good estimation this way.

From there, I usually just guess at the plants and fish. You can always use geometry for this one as well, but I find it a little frivolous given how often plants grow and get trimmed.

Of course the brute force method would be to drain the entire tank, then keep track of how many gallons it takes to refill it.

-Philosophos


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

I have been following this thread. Glad to hear that your plants are showing improvement. I am having trouble determining by reading this thread if you did or did not add Ca and Mg or not to help resolve your problem. 

I agree with Philosophos, CaCl is a good way to add calcium. I mix it up outside the tank and them add it because the chemical reaction with H2O causes heat and I don't what the fish to get a "hot mouth" (LOL) trying to eat it as it sinks to the bottom of the tank. BTW, CaCl and MgSO4 should not be mixed together with water but added separately. If mixed together you get a percipitate that does not dissolve easily.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Hmmm maybe MgSO4 with CSM+B then, as suggested on thekrib? 

-Philosophos


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Philosophos,

Dosing just MgSO4 with CSM+B unfortunately does not resolve my problem with calcium deficiency. I add my Mg directly into the tank, but dissolve the CaCl in water before adding.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Not instead of Ca, I mean mix the MgSo4 with CSM+B to dodge the precipitate issue with CaCl2.

-Philosophos


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi dynafire,
> 
> I have been following this thread. Glad to hear that your plants are showing improvement. I am having trouble determining by reading this thread if you did or did not add Ca and Mg or not to help resolve your problem.
> 
> I agree with Philosophos, CaCl is a good way to add calcium. I mix it up outside the tank and them add it because the chemical reaction with H2O causes heat and I don't what the fish to get a "hot mouth" (LOL) trying to eat it as it sinks to the bottom of the tank. BTW, CaCl and MgSO4 should not be mixed together with water but added separately. If mixed together you get a percipitate that does not dissolve easily.


Hi Seattle_Aquarist,

I have not add any Ca or Mg to the tank. All I did was upgrade the 29g display to 40g breeder with about 50% of R/O water and filled the rest of the tank up with old water. I did not add any Ca because it has not arrive yet, but I will add some when it gets here.

Thanks for the warning about CaCl . I have one more thing I need to clear up, even though I used 50% R/O with about 50% of old water I am still getting 60ppm Ca from the testing kit. However, my Gh did decreased by 2 dgh so it is at 4-5 dgh range. What I want to know is would I need to lower my Ca level before adding anymore CaCl?

Back to the main topic, I still don't know what cause the plants to curl and having deformation growth yet. I didn't add any Ca yet but my new growth does not look like there are Ca deficiency. Could it possibly be excess of nutrients?

-Dynafire


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

The upgrade to the 40 gallon was probably a good idea with the reduction in height you increase the intensity of light the plants receive. With the increased intensity I would watch for algae growth and be prepared to reduce my photoperiod if necessary.

As for why you are not seeing a reduction of Ca with the 50% water change I do not know, it should have gone down. I do have a question though, I know the API Calcium Test kit is for saltwater only, which brand test kit are you using and does it state that it works for freshwater?

I believe I read you are dosing PPS-Pro. If so it is doubtful that you had an excess of nutrients. I would give everything a week or so, let things settle down, and see how the new growth looks. Keep us posted!


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi dynafire,
> 
> The upgrade to the 40 gallon was probably a good idea with the reduction in height you increase the intensity of light the plants receive. With the increased intensity I would watch for algae growth and be prepared to reduce my photoperiod if necessary.
> 
> ...


I will watch the algae growth. You are right about the API Ca test kit! I didn't read it when I bought it. All the other test kits are for both types of aquariums. I will have to get a new Ca test then.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

I finally got my camera back so here are some pic of the tank.

http://tinypic.com/2mpjzyps


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

It looks good for a newly planted tank. I bet it will look really good when it grows and fills in. Keep us posted as things progress!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

The plants in the pictures you uploaded are all healthy. They don't look like they have any deficiencies at all (and seem like they haven't had any for as long as they have been growing). Are you sure there really was a deficiency? Alternanthera tends to grow slightly crinkled leaves normally.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

I never knew the Alternanthera tends to grow crinkled leaves. They were like curling up like a ball so I cut them out. The pics are new leaves that doesn't seem to be as bad. The Hygrophila's leaves are much rounder and smaller than the old leaves.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Slight crinkles seem to be common, if they were balled up then that sounds like something might be off. Good to know the new leaves are growing better.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Hmmm... Went to my LFS today and they told me there are no Ca test for FW. Could I still use my API even though it is for salt water?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

I don't think it would be accurate but you could contact 
API and check. I find that by watching my plants they pretty much tell me when my Ca is low.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ca shouldn't be that hard to keep in a decent range once you're dosing. The ratio should be around 4:1 Ca:Mg; something like 15-30ppm from CaCl2 should keep you out of deficiency range. 

-Philosophos


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hagen makes a Ca tests that does FW and SW.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Thanks for the replies! I have situation that need some input. I'm about to make a new batch of pps pro solution and I am wondering if I could include CaCl2 and Mg with the solution. If so, how much of each should I add to a 500ml of water?

Thanks,
Dynafire


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi dynafire,

I believe that PPS-Pro calls for 20 grams of MgSO4 for 500 ml of solution. When I did PPS-Pro I added the MgSO4 to my Macro solution. I still dose the CaCl separately.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I just tried to add the CaCl2 in with the rest of the mix yesterday. The entire thing was a disaster. Here's the thread I started over on the barrreport.com about the issue:



Philosophos said:


> So I decided to add CaCl2 to my liquid fert mix yesterday, rather than the usual dry dose. I took out the MgSO4 and mixed it over with the CSM+B to avoid precipitation issues.
> 
> The mix was standard EI stuff outside of the CaCl2; KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4. Upon dumping the weighed fertilizers in to water, the mix began to bubble, and heat was produced enough to warm the glass measuring cup up. From there, a nice crusty, flaky precipitate was produced that seemed to be made from fused granules of CaCl2. Out of curiosity, I heated the mixture up and stirred it for a while; zero solubility at boiling point, though the precipitate broke down in to a fine silt.
> 
> ...


Link to the thread: http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6025-cacl2-macro-mix-problem.html

-Philosophos


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Philosophos,

It has been a while since I was a chemistry major in college. My guess is the white participate that resulted, after the strong chemical reaction you experienced, was either calcium sulfate or calcium phosphate. Neither of which are very soluble in water.


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi dynafire,
> 
> I believe that PPS-Pro calls for 20 grams of MgSO4 for 500 ml of solution. When I did PPS-Pro I added the MgSO4 to my Macro solution. I still dose the CaCl separately.


You are right! Forgot that there are MgSO4 with PPS-Pro. As for CaCl, how much and how often should I dose?

Thanks,
Dynafire


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## dynafire (Dec 19, 2007)

Philosophos said:


> I just tried to add the CaCl2 in with the rest of the mix yesterday. The entire thing was a disaster. Here's the thread I started over on the barrreport.com about the issue:
> 
> Link to the thread: http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6025-cacl2-macro-mix-problem.html
> 
> -Philosophos


Good thing I post before I mix them! Thanks for the heads up.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

It's the KH2PO4 at very least causing the issue. I'm keeping my CaCl2 mixed in a separate bottle now. The specific details are posted over on the other thread.

-Philosophos


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