# High CO2 and High Phosphates...



## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

...yet I think I'm having GSA problems. That's my first question: Is this GSA? On the one hand, it's impossible to take off of leaves, dark green, not hairy, but it seems to be able to form in patches (not spots).

Here are a couple pics:



















Yeah, so that ludwigia in the top picture was once red, and you can make out some of the dark green patches on the leaves in the second picture... the boundaries of the algae are very well defined.

My second question is, why would I have GSA (if that is in fact what it is)? My phosphates are too high as it is (~2-5 ppm), my CO2 is too high (~60-70 ppm) so it can't be either of these usual culprits (can it?). I'll work on bringing those numbers down, but what could be the cause? My nitrates are ~20 ppm, and I dose potassium and plantex every day.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

That doesn't look like GSA to me. It is algae, but I can't tell from the photos what kind it is. Here is a good reference for identifying algae: http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/

I don't know why you have algae without more information, such as amount and duration of lighting, size of tank, fertilizing routine, cleaning and water change routine, how you get good water circulation in the tank, etc. One thing that stands out is that you are attempting to use a test kit to determine how much phosphate you have in the water. If you are not calibrating that kit regularly, the results mean very little. Also, 1 to 5 ppm of phosphate is not extremely high. Secondly, you are obviously using KH and pH to determine how much CO2 is in the water. That doesn't work. You don't have that much CO2 unless there are no fish in the tank - it would kill the fish if you had that much. To determine how much CO2 you have you need a drop checker, and some 4 dKH distilled water, preferably a standard solution from someone like http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/37080-kh-standards.html. And, you may be using a test kit to determine the nitrates in your water - again, you have to calibrate the test kit regularly or it isn't accurate. The plants are growing, I assume, so they would be using up that nitrate if you don't replace it regularly, so you need to dose that too, along with phosphate and the traces.


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## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

Hm. Are the test really that inaccurate (I have measured ~0 phosphates before)? What good would the drop checker be, then, if you can't trust the reagent you add?

I had been dosing PO4 and nitrates, but I've been trying to feed enough lately, that based on my (untrustworthy) test results, I was maintaining adequate levels -- perhaps it would behoove me to start dosing those again.

I'd like to avoid the weekly water changes of EI, partly because my tap water is so hard, and also I don't think my cories like it so much (I could be wrong). With tests being as unreliable as they are, let me bounce this idea off of you guys.

Assuming that you're dosing in the right proportions of nutrients, one might be able to get away with TDS testing to try to match the volume of dry ferts to the uptake of the plants relatively easily. This is quick, plus you don't have to do water changes if you see the TDS level remaining unchanged (periodic testing of specific ferts would probably still be wise). What do you think?

BTW, I cannot narrow the algae down using that website. It has the color of BGA, the resiliency of GSA, and the growth behavior of hair algae. It has me stumped. I'm not sure this one will help any. I think I can identify GSA as being one of the algaes, but I cannot identify the glossier kind on the lower leaf. If I get better pictures, I will post them.









Thanks again!


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Hi, K-Maub you can test the accuracy of your phosphate and nitrate test kit in the following way. All, credit to Left C who posted this at plantedtanknet. You can also try to get a copy of your city tap water parameters from your city water works department to see if your own tap water tests with your test kits are consistent with what your city report shows. I have very high nitrates and phosphates in my 10 gallon. I calibrated the test kits(I use APC nitrate test kit and Aquafin Phosphate test kit) to silence the critics and confirmed that my test kits are not inaccurate. As far as the effects of high nitrates and phosphates go, so far based on what I am seeing, I don't think that it is harming the plants. The tank has never developed GSA, but only minor BGA and some green spot algae. I don't think that high nitrates and phosphates can cause algae as I previously thought. However, I am still struggling with this this "lack of nitrates or zero nitrates causes Blue Green Algae" finding. This just does not match my findings as I have sufficient nitrates and have had sufficient nitrates since setting up the tank that Blue Green Algae should never have appeared. Unless, of course what I am seeing is not Blue Green Algae at all or something that just looks like Blue Green Algae, or worse some new mutant nitrate resistant form of Blue Green Algae, which I highly doubt.

I agree with Hoppy, you should consider setting up a c02 drop checker to measure c02 levels. It may not be 100% accurate but it is likely as accurate as you are going to get, without spending a fortune on high tech specialized c02 testing equipment. Your point about not trusting the PH reagant that you add is well taken. I just set up a drop checker and tested a Hagen PH reagant with the 4dkh solution and Sera PH test reagant. I had to use the Sera PH test reagant is it gave me the nice blue reference color as opposed to the Hagen one which gave me a very dark green color even with less drops used.

How to Make Reference NO3 and PO4 Solutions

Here's a way to make 10, 20, 30 and 40 ppm NO3 reference solutions:

Add 1.631 g of KNO3 to 1 L distilled or DI water. This makes a 1000 ppm NO3 solution. (It's really a 1000.29 ppm solution.)

Add 2 mL of the 1000 ppm solution to 18 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 20 mL of a 100 ppm NO3 solution.

Add 15 mL of the 100 ppm solution to 15 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 30 mL of a 50 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 10 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 2 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 8 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 10 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 20 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 4 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 6 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 20 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 30 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 6 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 4 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 30 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 40 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 8 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 2 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 40 ppm NO3 solution.

Here's a way to make 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 ppm PO4 reference solutions:
Add 1.433 g of KH2PO4 to 1 L distilled or DI water. This makes a 1000 ppm PO4 solution. (It's really a 1000.09 ppm solution.)

Add 1 mL of the 1000 ppm solution to 9 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 100 ppm PO4 solution.

Add 2 mL of the 100 ppm solution to 18 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 20 mL of a 10 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 1.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 1 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 9 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 1.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 2.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 2 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 8 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 2.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 3.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 3 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 7 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 3.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 4.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 4 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 6 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 4.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 5.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 5 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 5 mL of distilled or DI water. This makes 10 mL of a 5.0 ppm PO4 solution.

*Again all credit to LeftC for posting this at plantedtanknet.*


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Not all test kits are equal. When measuring something in the one part per million range it is much,much harder to get an accurate measurement than when testing for something in the 20 ppm range. And, testing pH is very easily done, using several different reagents - it is probably the most reliable of all of the tests we can do - but only if your eyes are good enough to accurately judge the colors. So, since the drop checker depends only on accurately judging a pH test - being able to tell the difference between green and blue-green or yellow-green - it can be an accurate test much easier than a phosphate test can be accurate. The problem with the drop checker or any other CO2 measurement is that the ppm of CO2 measured is proportional to ten raised to the pH power. That means a small error in pH makes a big difference in the measured result. A .3 error in pH makes a 50% error in CO2. But, this is the most accurate test for CO2 that I have found, without spending hundreds of dollars for laboratory test equipment.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Just wanted to add that you could try adding extra PO4 for a few weeks and see if it helps. It shouldn't hurt anything to be running PO4 a bit higher. If it is some kind of GSA it shouldn't grow on anymore leaves with the increase in PO4. 

But its probably best to just do as the others said and calibrate your tests and go from there.

Oh and thats not a ludwigia, its Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia' a very cool plant - one of my favs.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I agree that the plant is A. reineckii, and that plant is an algae magnet for me. I quit trying to grow it when I got so frustrated with algae on it. One reason for the problems, I think, is that it grows so densely it doesn't allow water to circulate well thru it, so it doesn't get good CO2. It is a victim of its own success.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hehe, yea it definately needs to be thinned out often to avoid problems. 

It is also prone to other problems due to the dense growth - light reduction to lower leaves causes them to die off and rot.


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

We are on the same boat as far as preferring to see test results over using EI, I'm going to have to test out your TDS theory. The only flaw I see there is the margins of error from not being able to differentiate nutrients, my tank consumes different things at slightly different rates, but it would still be interesting to try out. I prefer watching plants and reading tests. Tests in my tank using reliable liquid reagents, that are good enough to show positive and negative results, show >1ppm PO4 being consumed in approx two days. Assuming some of that may be locked up inside plants and algae on day 2, one could still safely add 1 to 2ppm weekly and step it up to twice a week if needed while staying confident that no buildup will occur without a WC, assuming they are providing a healthy balance of everything else and have to trim at least once or twice a month.

I have to agree with the others that AR is an algae magnet. IME, the key to keeping it pretty is inducing the fastest growth you can get out of it and trimming/topping it often.


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## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

First off, I don't know what kind of brain fart I was having but, yeah, that's certainly not ludwigia (though I do have that elsewhere in the tank). Mostly, I don't use scientific names often enough, so I'm not comfortable with them.

Jaidexl, I'm interested to know that you've seen your phosphates be consumed that fast. I guess I better start dosing PO4 again, since I don't know how much is being added with the food. It's just frustrating, because I know my test has come up with 0 ppm phosphates before, so seeing it non-zero results now had me that much more convinced that I had some PO4 in there. Maybe there's other stuff in the tank that can trigger the reagents?

Aside from fish comfort level though, does anybody see a particular problem with running CO2 that high (assuming that I can believe those levels)? If fish don't appear distressed, do I need to worry about their health with high CO2?


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

I say as long as they aren't swarming the surface or gasping, then it's ok. But as far as the pH/KH relation chart and my reagents are concerned (tried a DC and it stayed green forever even with O2 at night), I've only pushed it to ~30ppm on a regular basis, ~60-70pmm on accident one time and I still don't recall seeing signs from the fish, just an alarming amount of pearling. I gauge my CO2 content by eye now and partially pH/KH, a specific amount of pearling within an hour or two of lights/CO2 on, and of course watch out for gasping although I'm confident what bps and diffusion method will avoid that in my tank.

Keep in mind your P could be hanging out longer if the balance is off and something missing is causing very low uptake. Of course, you would know your tank better but may be something to consider. Or try another brand reagent if you can, maybe get the LFS to check it with a few different ones.

As far as the talk of calibration, I've personally been trying to steer toward well thought out guestimations to make up for the infinite margins of error we face. Incorporating info from various places in comparison to what my reagents say, including ratios given by Chuck's calc, numerous reagents at the LFS and my own, plant reactions, etc. My avoidance of EI started after the 20th WC on my 65gl, I got lazy, saw some nice no-water-change threads online, and decided to monitor how long it takes ferts to disappear in my tank while maintaining steady light/CO2 and growth, so that I can properly dose while sticking to a more lenient WC regime. Not to try and pin a new term that blatantly copies or makes fun of a well respected and working method, but I like to jokingly call it my "guestimative index", lol.


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## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

Despite the algae, I'm seeing pretty good growth out of almost everything. My wendtii is sending up an inordinate number of runners right now; I'm not sure if that's a sign of distress or anything, but pretty much the only thing that doesn't grow is my dwarf sagittaria (doesn't die, either, but did MUCH better before I had compressed CO2; an indication of some imbalance?)

So if phosphates can be taken up that quickly, I suppose I had better resume dosing, despite what my tests say. The EI method looks much more attractive when all of your faith in testing is lost. I like the guesstimative index idea; I think that's why I'd like to get a TDS meter, as it would help my guessing be more educated.

Without huge water changes regularly, one has to worry about toxicity. Are nitrates the biggest toxicity danger to fish? Will plants respond to toxicity to other ferts before they distress the fish?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The point where nitrates are toxic to fish is way higher than anything we dose. And, I believe that is true for other ferts too. Trace elements might be a problem if the mix has a relatively high Copper level, and you overdose by a substantial amount. I don't think the plants will react badly to any fertilizer overdose that we might see.


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

I stopped dosing NPK a few weeks ago to see what would happen and finally saw holes developing in my AR leaves. P was certainly gone but had never shown a substantial deficiency all of the other times it was at 0ppm, same with K (I continued trace dosing). So, I checked nitrates and they had been depleted down from ~10 to 0ppm in just a few weeks. So, N is another that you can be confident the plants are going to consume before a buildup occurs, although with a fish load, I only need to dose about a gram or two (in 65gl) once a month to get <5ppm back up around <10ppm. So as long as you don't blindly dose it constantly with a decent fish load, you will probably be ok.


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## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

If you only dose nitrate two grams, that's only about 5 ppm. So if that's all you have to add per month, I would expect that it would take two months for your nitrates to go from 10 ppm to 0 ppm. Are you sure that wasn't a potassium deficiency you observed? I thought holes developing in leaves was typically a sign of K deficiency.

Regardless, 5 ppm per month of nitrates sounds like a pretty lean regime...


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## jaidexl (Jan 20, 2007)

It was probably a month since I last dosed nitrates, so I should redo my statement, they go down from 10 to 5 in a month so I dose back up to 10, they were probably at 5, maybe even less when I stopped dosing macros, so I suppose I over exaggerated that one a bit, although less bioload would mean it's gone even quicker. I can't be positive what caused the deficiency, could have been anything, I just know two things I've never had are holes in my AR and 0ppm NO3.


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## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

Since this mysterious algae is quickly becoming the scourge of my tank despite my daily phosphate dosing, I thought I'd throw up another couple pictures to see if anyone can make an ID.

The indestructible film has actually taken on a whitish-green hue as it covers my plant leaves at a remarkable pace. I'd say the leaves that are at least a couple days old under direct light are the most affected.

Here is a picture of the affected tip of a melon sword leaf:









And the red lotus pad that was closest to the surface:









I really have no idea what counter-measures to take anymore, as I'm truly at a loss for what type of algae this is....


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## tonny dencas (Nov 2, 2007)

Would hello me give my experience thereon,
I miss exactly the same, I have also the same params,
before I do not spent and what unique to that changed is that now not methodology also recommended amounts to micros+hierro
second test mantenia 0.25 iron fee. mast they told me that it was too,
now hardly do I add compost liguids micros+hierro, the test I do not mark nothing, or almost nothing.
a person told me that before I do not passing through the hierrome neutralized the excess of phosphates, was not that some will in this, I am what believed by many things that coincide, and today have begun paying mast iron 0.25
to my plants also grow Quick me not so much as before but grows, the problem in the leaves old is that they are dark color and the new very very white
bueno, did soil want comentarlo, did he/she want to know that seems them?


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