# Ammonia and Cycling in New Tank



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Here are recent questions posed to me that I hope members of APC can help answer. I've made an initial stab.

_I recently set up a 2.5 gallon tank and wanted to know if you might weigh in on my set-up? The goal is a lushly planted mini-aquarium with a few shrimp, snails and a betta. Tank has been set up for 2 weeks, one of which has been with plants._
A Betta will have a lovely time dining on those shrimp!

_Substrate: Seachem Aquasolum (humic, small diameter, w/ these nutrients (mg/Kg) - Ca 2710, Mg 2030, Ph 144, K 878, N 3800, Iron 29800). I plan on adding an inch of fine gravel on top of the aquasolum._
Looks reasonable, but for such a small tank I would use less than 1" of gravel.

_Plants: Duckweed, wisteria, vallisneria, potted micro-sword for foreground, and something whose name I don't remember but it floats and looks like marine macro algae._
Sounds good! I love Water Wisteria. Allow its leaves come out of the water.

_Lighting: one 9w, 450 lumen, 5000K LED bulb in a clip on lamp. _
Sounds reasonable.

_Filtration: none. I do have a sponge in a mini sumbersible power filter and I plan on running it for [air] circulation beginning tomorrow. _
Keep water circulation modest.

_Water: I'm using Multipure (under the sink cannister) filtered water (carbon block filtered) and have added a water conditioner to take care of the Chloramine, and API cycling drops, which I may continue to add weekly for another few weeks. My ammonia still tests at 1.0 ppm which I guess means that I need to add more cycling liquid, more frequently, to encourage the nitrification process._

I don't think so. I understand that commercial products for seeding the tank with nitrifying bacteria don't work. Producers got the wrong bacteria. Ammonia oxidation has recently been found to be due to some odd-ball bacteria from the Archaea Kingdom, not nitrifying bacteria. Whatever microorganisms are doing the ammonia oxidation, there's no way that they could colonize a new ecosystem instantaneously to be effective. Attachment and colonization in a new environment can be expected to take weeks. I would count on your plants and ammonia oxiders within the soil to take care of ammonia.

In treating tapwater for chloramines, ammonia is released. Does your water conditioner ALSO remove the ammonia generated. Treatment for chloramines may explain your tank's high ammonia level.

That said, you should be focused on good plant growth-not bacteria-to take care of ammonia. Reread my book.

_Any thoughts on the dirt portion of my Aquasolum brand substrate, in terms of nutrient values, as compared to typical organic potting soil?_

It looks reasonable. Ammonia could be coming from treated chloramines. (I doubt that SeaChem would sell a soil that leached that much ammonia.) You can use zeolite to remove the ammonia or just sit tight and let the plants take care of it.

_I will definitely check the forum as you suggest, and share photo's. Hopefully they will show more success than setbacks! It's all part of the learning process.
_
Yes, this is true for all of us.


----------



## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

> Ammonia oxidation has recently been found to be due to some odd-ball bacteria from the Archaea Kingdom, not nitrifying bacteria.


Well I'll be damned. For anyone who wants a source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3156731/

Think you pretty much nailed everything, only question I'm left wondering is have they tried testing the water straight from their tap for ammonia? Have they tried adding the cycling liquid to their tap water to see if it reads ammonia?


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This explains why the quickest and most reliable method for "seeding" a new aquarium with beneficial microorganisms is to use filter squeezings (mulm) from an established healthy tank. And it also reinforces the role of plants in ammonia reduction.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I still believe that the "best" way to "cycle" a new tank is to plant it heavily with fast growing plants, let the plants get a good start growing before adding any fish, then adding only a few fish, and adding a few more every week until you have all that you wanted. The few fish you first add produce very little ammonia, which the growing plants can easily remove. The presence of that tiny amount of ammonia will cause the beneficial bacteria to start colonies, and the addition of small amounts of fish regularly will cause that bacterial colony to grow until it matches the need for them. The original bacteria come from the plant leaves, which will have plenty for starting the tank. I also use a bit of mulm from an established tank, in my filter, just to feel more confident.

There are other ways to start a new tank, so I'm not going to say that this way is vastly superior, just an good way to do it.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your plan is a good one.

But please don't forget that ordinary, unsterilized soil contains bacteria that remove ammonia. I was delighted to observe this in some "bottle test" experiments comparing ammonia levels in bottles with and without soil.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Your plan is a good one.
> 
> But please don't forget that ordinary, unsterilized soil contains bacteria that remove ammonia. I was delighted to observe this in some "bottle test" experiments comparing ammonia levels in bottles with and without soil.


How long will those bacteria live underwater?


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

dwalstad said:


> Ammonia oxidation has recently been found to be due to some odd-ball bacteria from the Archaea Kingdom, not nitrifying bacteria.


I have a white paper on this too!
Watch out who you tell, I've been beat up on this topic in the past.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I have a white paper on this too!
> Watch out who you tell, I've been beat up on this topic in the past.


That stinks, I find "suggested" topics interesting. Would never beat anyone up about it lol. 
Going to research that, I saw it b4 but kind of skimmed over it LOL


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

hoppycalif said:


> I still believe that the "best" way to "cycle" a new tank is to plant it heavily with fast growing plants, let the plants get a good start growing before adding any fish, then adding only a few fish, and adding a few more every week until you have all that you wanted.


From a practical standpoint, this is what I always do. And it is easy sound advice to give beginners. Yyou don't need to understand the science for it to work.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DutchMuch said:


> How long will those bacteria live underwater?


Forever. The cool thing is that all bacteria essentially live underwater. Soil bacteria live in the water film that surrounds soil particles. The soil may look dry to us, but there's a coating around soil particles, even desert soils. Bacteria live in this tiny environmental niche.

I'm not sure that soil bacteria will adapt forever to aquarium conditions, but I can say that my bottles with soil took care of ammonia in short order compared to bottles without soil. (Bottles were aerated during my experiment.)


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Forever. The cool thing is that all bacteria essentially live underwater. Soil bacteria live in the water film that surrounds soil particles. The soil may look dry to us, but there's a coating around soil particles, even desert soils. Bacteria live in this tiny environmental niche.
> 
> I'm not sure that soil bacteria will adapt forever to aquarium conditions, but I can say that my bottles with soil took care of ammonia in short order compared to bottles without soil. (Bottles were aerated during my experiment.)


hm that's interesting. Thanks. :ear:


----------



## jman17 (Nov 27, 2017)

Thanks to Diana and everyone else who weighed in. My current reading of ammonia is now down to .25 ppm, perhaps partially due to all the duckweed growth? Regarding the shrimp and fish, I'm thinking maybe I stick to red cherry shrimp and other tiny shrimps without exposing them to potential predators. How many shrimp would be a good number for a 2.5 gallon setup?


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

jman17 said:


> Thanks to Diana and everyone else who weighed in. My current reading of ammonia is now down to .25 ppm, perhaps partially due to all the duckweed growth? Regarding the shrimp and fish, I'm thinking maybe I stick to red cherry shrimp and other tiny shrimps without exposing them to potential predators. How many shrimp would be a good number for a 2.5 gallon setup?


Really any number lol.
But if your asking how many you should buy for the tank to start out with, 4 or 5 maybe is a good amt.


----------



## leaveittoweaver (Apr 17, 2012)

hoppycalif said:


> I still believe that the "best" way to "cycle" a new tank is to plant it heavily with fast growing plants, let the plants get a good start growing before adding any fish, then adding only a few fish, and adding a few more every week until you have all that you wanted. The few fish you first add produce very little ammonia, which the growing plants can easily remove. The presence of that tiny amount of ammonia will cause the beneficial bacteria to start colonies, and the addition of small amounts of fish regularly will cause that bacterial colony to grow until it matches the need for them. The original bacteria come from the plant leaves, which will have plenty for starting the tank. I also use a bit of mulm from an established tank, in my filter, just to feel more confident.
> 
> There are other ways to start a new tank, so I'm not going to say that this way is vastly superior, just an good way to do it.


How long do you usually wait to add your first fish?


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

leaveittoweaver said:


> How long do you usually wait to add your first fish?


I have usually waited about 2-3 weeks after I set up the tank. I think the more important way to judge it is to make sure the plants have started growing well. If they have, the small amount of ammonia the first few fish add to the water will just be food for those plants.


----------

