# 19L new tank, first try of Walstad method



## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Hi all, 

So I actually learnt the method from a youtuber--Foo the Flowerhorn. all credit to him that introduced the method to me. and accidentally i found this place! Amazing. Therefore, I supposed I should try to get in touch with educated hobbyists. 

Currently, I am running a 19L (5 Gal) tank with a mid-planted setting, it is only 1 week in. The tank will be an apisto tank, no more than 1 pair. As apisto needs black water environment, I wonder if the 13W CFL light will be dial down because the water is black-ish? 


Secondly, I was not too sure about the plants' selection, pic as attached. I see the Glossostigma and others are doing fine. Although the rotala started to melt from the bottom, there is new growth on the top which confuses me a lot.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

I forgot to mention that the filter. so tank is desired to be "true silence" tank, therefore there is no filter. But as Walstad suggested the water movement is beneficial. Could I use a skimmer instead of a full-on filter?


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

Congratulations for giving a try for this.

To me your tank setup looks good. There is enough plants and you mentioned you are already seeing some new growth which is crucial for success .

I have a 15 liter NPT shrimp only tank with no water circulation whatsoever. All is absolutely fine. Plants are growing, shrimps are healthy and no algae. In this small size its not that easy to circulate the water slow enough so that CO2 is not driven off if there is more than the equilibrium. By the way, if you have a look at the "foo the flowerhorn" video, I think there is also no filter in that setup.

Your 19 liter is somewhat small for fish, if you put in a pair, make sure they are really tiny fish so that this small volume of water is enough for a happy (fish) life. I don't know much about Apistos.

Do you plan to put some shrimp in? They are also fun and they do not need huge tanks.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Welcome to APC, Nelsonfeelscool!

What substrate are you using? And, are you following the instructions in the Walstad book, without changes? I know it is best to use rooted plants instead of stem plants, and it looks like you have mostly stem plants. I don't use her method, but I'm planning to do so for my next set-up, after I re-read her book.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

> Congratulations for giving a try for this.
> 
> To me your tank setup looks good. There is enough plants and you mentioned you are already seeing some new growth which is crucial for success .
> 
> ...


I will add some shrimps just for the cleaning team! Also not too sure about the apisto, but I am sooooooo addicted to them as I would read the cichlids' species book every day. So I will try to get one small kind.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to APC, Nelsonfeelscool!
> 
> What substrate are you using? And, are you following the instructions in the Walstad book, without changes? I know it is best to use rooted plants instead of stem plants, and it looks like you have mostly stem plants. I don't use her method, but I'm planning to do so for my next set-up, after I re-read her book.


I noticed that too, but the video I saw also has plenty stem plants which got me into those. I will keep trying out.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Everything looks pretty good at this point. As Hoppy mentions, you may need some more strong rooted plants. Any of the smaller cryptocoryne would work well.

19L is pretty small for a pair of apistos, mainly because they can become aggressive when breeding. There isn't enough space for the loser to escape. I had my Apistograma boreleyi in a 20 gallon, and would not have risked putting them in anything smaller.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Michael said:


> Everything looks pretty good at this point. As Hoppy mentions, you may need some more strong rooted plants. Any of the smaller cryptocoryne would work well.
> 
> 19L is pretty small for a pair of apistos, mainly because they can become aggressive when breeding. There isn't enough space for the loser to escape. I had my Apistograma boreleyi in a 20 gallon, and would not have risked putting them in anything smaller.


thank you for the advice, I will start with 1 apisto to try out.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Michael said:


> Everything looks pretty good at this point. As Hoppy mentions, you may need some more strong rooted plants. Any of the smaller cryptocoryne would work well.
> 
> 19L is pretty small for a pair of apistos, mainly because they can become aggressive when breeding. There isn't enough space for the loser to escape. I had my Apistograma boreleyi in a 20 gallon, and would not have risked putting them in anything smaller.


Got time to look through some of the posts in the forum, I find there is a common topic about the gravel layer, as I am using fine sand like the ADA colorado sand, I wonder if that was a bad move, although I am seeing many air bubbles in the sand layer (guess mostly are CO2...). At the same time, since I have some the stem slow growers, the tank starts to have some grey-ish little spots on the glass, I suppose they are algae (?)...Should I introduce a nerite and few cleaning shrimps? or Should I simply scrape them off the glass?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

How deep are the layers, soil and sand? From the photo they don't look excessive. Gently poke the substrate with a chop stick (or similar) to release the bubbles. If they do not smell, they are just CO2. If they smell foul like rotten eggs, that is a problem.

Two things that will help long term are strong rooted plants and Malayan trumpet snails. Many people dislike the snails because they breed so fast, but they burrow in the substrate and help to keep it aerated.

Just scrape the glass. It is better to wait a few weeks before adding shrimp.


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## adalah (Feb 10, 2019)

That's interesting!


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Michael said:


> How deep are the layers, soil and sand? From the photo they don't look excessive. Gently poke the substrate with a chop stick (or similar) to release the bubbles. If they do not smell, they are just CO2. If they smell foul like rotten eggs, that is a problem.
> 
> Two things that will help long term are strong rooted plants and Malayan trumpet snails. Many people dislike the snails because they breed so fast, but they burrow in the substrate and help to keep it aerated.
> 
> Just scrape the glass. It is better to wait a few weeks before adding shrimp.


Thank you!just did the scraping yesterday, but was too late to see the post that I already put single Amano shrimp, just wanted it to clean up some of the algae if possible. So far it seems fine as well as I check the pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate being quite stable.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Michael said:


> How deep are the layers, soil and sand? From the photo they don't look excessive. Gently poke the substrate with a chop stick (or similar) to release the bubbles. If they do not smell, they are just CO2. If they smell foul like rotten eggs, that is a problem.
> 
> Two things that will help long term are strong rooted plants and Malayan trumpet snails. Many people dislike the snails because they breed so fast, but they burrow in the substrate and help to keep it aerated.
> 
> Just scrape the glass. It is better to wait a few weeks before adding shrimp.


Oops... Probably should listen to the expert first. The amano died the third day, it was desperately swimming towards the surface all the time, is it because there is not enough air in the tank? But the plants are thriving... Although there is rarely any plants pearling which no sigh of oxygen is produeced.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The reason for waiting before adding fish/shrimp is because you need to let a colony of ammonia eating bacteria get established, and another colony of nitrite eating bacteria also get established. The ammonia eating bacteria leave nitrites as waste, and the nitrite eating bacteria leave nitrates as waste. The plants use the nitrates as fertilizer. Shrimp harmed more by ammonia and nitrites than fish are, as I recall. You should wait at least 2 weeks, and the plants should be growing, before you add either fish or shrimp.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> The reason for waiting before adding fish/shrimp is because you need to let a colony of ammonia eating bacteria get established, and another colony of nitrite eating bacteria also get established. The ammonia eating bacteria leave nitrites as waste, and the nitrite eating bacteria leave nitrates as waste. The plants use the nitrates as fertilizer. Shrimp harmed more by ammonia and nitrites than fish are, as I recall. You should wait at least 2 weeks, and the plants should be growing, before you add either fish or shrimp.


Learnt the hard way... I knew the fish has to wait, didnt respect the shrimp life as the cleaning assets which was my fault...R.I.P. I will wait more month until it really established. btw I added an Anubis nana as the root plants try, and the cryptocoryne is on the way.

One thing I am curious is that when you say root plants, do you mean that those also need to be planted in the gravel layer or they could just be glued on the driftwoods?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

You need plants with strong root systems in the substrate. Epiphytes (the type that grow on wood or stone) don't grow roots into the substrate fast enough, if at all.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Nelsonfeelscool said:


> thank you for the advice, I will start with 1 apisto to try out.


Apistogramma trifasciata is the smallest I have heard of. Most sources say they get to about 1 inch, and veijita are also quite small, like 1-2 inches.

I'm curious about the advice for OP to have a strongly rooted plant in the tank. My NPT is 4 months old and I haven't gotten anything with really big roots yet, but it's doing great. Is the reasoning to avoid having an anaerobic substrate?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> Is the reasoning to avoid having an anaerobic substrate?


Yes.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Michael said:


> Yes.


so for the weekend, I got two spices of the cryptocoryne s

Cryptocoryne wendtii red
Cryptocoryne Mioya

and I will get another Cryptocoryne sivadasanii for the background, longer one

But it was quite struggling to plant them through my sand into the dirt...I lost 1/3 of the leaves just wanting to plant them... will they be fine?

(While planting them. I did a big water change, basically, 80% of the water has swapped out.)


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> Apistogramma trifasciata is the smallest I have heard of. Most sources say they get to about 1 inch, and veijita are also quite small, like 1-2 inches.
> 
> I'm curious about the advice for OP to have a strongly rooted plant in the tank. My NPT is 4 months old and I haven't gotten anything with really big roots yet, but it's doing great. Is the reasoning to avoid having an anaerobic substrate?


I am in Japan, so it is quite easy to get some rare species, And yes I love Tri family, but after having the first "casualty"--Amano shrimp, I will have to be cautious of choosing the dweller for next time, especially apisto is quite difficult to deal with, I still don't have a clue how to tune down the PH a lot...like A LOT.

that to be said, I'd love to see my stems to thrive at first, so far they are growing the new leaves which I consider to be fine...at the moment, the leaves on the lower parts of the stems melted some. the soil is the "観葉植物用土" in Japanese, as the "soil for ornamental foliage plant". That contains most of the nutrients for land foliage plants, although I couldn't find the very detailed component of the soil, I think it has not caused any problem yet.. I hope.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Nelsonfeelscool said:


> I am in Japan, so it is quite easy to get some rare species, And yes I love Tri family, but after having the first "casualty"--Amano shrimp, I will have to be cautious of choosing the dweller for next time


I hear you. I have a Betta right now because it's also my daughter's fish and I didn't want to kill something on our first try.

Something that really helped me with ammonia was using duckweed. I had a constant small amount of ammonia after starting up my tank (0.25 ppm) and got some green-blue algae, so after killing it with H202 I added the duckweed. The shade and nutrient uptake seemed to prevent any more problems, and then once my other plants caught up a bit I cut down the duckweed level so that other plants could get more light.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> I hear you. I have a Betta right now because it's also my daughter's fish and I didn't want to kill something on our first try.
> 
> Something that really helped me with ammonia was using duckweed. I had a constant small amount of ammonia after starting up my tank (0.25 ppm) and got some green-blue algae, so after killing it with H202 I added the duckweed. The shade and nutrient uptake seemed to prevent any more problems, and then once my other plants caught up a bit I cut down the duckweed level so that other plants could get more light.


I do have some Salvina in the tank, as the tank is only 2 weeks old, they couldn't cover the surface yet as all the things are slowly getting into their shape. So I'd expect all of them start to grow in a bit more. I made the mistake for adding the live stock for just cleaning Off the algae. For some reason, it's very rare to see duckweek or even smaller size of the floating plants...which I was keen to. But salvina works fine.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Ah, that's a bummer, but I'm sure salvinia is quite good too. Honestly duckweed is a pain except for how well it cleans the water, haha. It gets stuck to everything when removing it, which is a frequent chore around here, lol.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> Ah, that's a bummer, but I'm sure salvinia is quite good too. Honestly duckweed is a pain except for how well it cleans the water, haha. It gets stuck to everything when removing it, which is a frequent chore around here, lol.


check this guy -- Foo the Flowerhorn. he made one floating plants separator, which is quite simple and efficient.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

19/04/08

I think this is a good place to put weekly progress, and even ask and learn from others as the tank builds up... so this is 2 weeks into the tank setup. 

Short report:

1. I swapped out the Vallisneria...although they are supposed to be the easy plants...most of them started melting from the top, and the roots are mostly dead... so now it is the two kinds of Cryptocoryne take the spaces--undulatus and wendtii red. 

2. Glossostigma elatinoides, Bacopa caroliniana, and Rotala Rotundifolia are doing great jobs, most of the roots are established..

Question:

1. Even though the platns seems to be established and growing, and the Co2 in the gravel layer are fine with no smells, I rarely see any plants pearling oxygen which concerns me a lot.

2. So I did 3 small water changes now, and the day after the water change, the glass will be full of potential algae white little dots and some moving creatures, I am not sure if this is ok.

Picture:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think your tank looks good. Don't worry about your plants not pearling. Pearling is the release of *excess* oxygen, the waste product of plant photosynthesis. You'll see that in tanks with CO2 injection and accelerated plant growth. If your plants are growing in an NPT, that's all that really counts.

As to shrimp dying, put that on the back burner. They could be dying from disease, inbreeding, shipping stress, etc.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> I think your tank looks good. Don't worry about your plants not pearling. Pearling is the release of *excess* oxygen, the waste product of plant photosynthesis. You'll see that in tanks with CO2 injection and accelerated plant growth. If your plants are growing in an NPT, that's all that really counts.
> 
> As to shrimp dying, put that on the back burner. They could be dying from disease, inbreeding, shipping stress, etc.


Thank you! Diana. That clears my concerns a lot! I will keep going!

Meanwhile, Q: 
1. I really keen to some the red plants in the tank, Do you think it is possible to plant some with no ferts or little ferts once a week?

2. I found out the water temperature at the bottom of the tank is much cooler than the top. Will that causes any problems? Thus I am thinking about to get some water movement in the tank, as the warm water push down to the bottom. (although I had really persuaded myself to not spend more money on the equipment, LOL.)


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Nelsonfeelscool said:


> Meanwhile, Q:
> 1. I really keen to some the red plants in the tank, Do you think it is possible to plant some with no ferts or little ferts once a week?
> 
> 2. I found out the water temperature at the bottom of the tank is much cooler than the top. Will that causes any problems? Thus I am thinking about to get some water movement in the tank, as the warm water push down to the bottom. (although I had really persuaded myself to not spend more money on the equipment, LOL.)


Hey, I'm not sure about the red plants, especially if you want something that is all red. There might be a ludwigia that would work, but I'm not totally sure. But with higher light (your bulb is the same as mine) you can get the tops of some plants to be a bit red. My hygrophila polysperma does this, and its not even near the top of the water column yet.

As far as heat, you can put your heater horizontally (as long as its fully submersible) just a bit above the substrate (not touching it) and it will promote circulation from convection due to the heating of the lower levels. This is actually the way that Foo the Flowerhorns NPT was set up, at least for a while.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

PS: How big is the temperature difference in between the bottom and the top of your water column right now? It might not be a big deal anyway.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> Hey, I'm not sure about the red plants, especially if you want something that is all red. There might be a ludwigia that would work, but I'm not totally sure. But with higher light (your bulb is the same as mine) you can get the tops of some plants to be a bit red. My hygrophila polysperma does this, and its not even near the top of the water column yet.
> 
> As far as heat, you can put your heater horizontally (as long as its fully submersible) just a bit above the substrate (not touching it) and it will promote circulation from convection due to the heating of the lower levels.


Good advice.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> PS: How big is the temperature difference in between the bottom and the top of your water column right now? It might not be a big deal anyway.


Thank you!

As for the temperature, in short, I added a DIY water circulation solution, so the temperature is good for the moment(until the summer hits...)

The reason for the DIY solution and how:

Through this week, I see some more algae and weird brown "dusty" things all over my tank, although none seems harmful to the plants, they just stack on the leaves, stones and the wood. So I decided to do something about it to add water flow in the tank.

So basically it is a sponge filter setup. * I got a small size sponge on a filter motor*(cheap, lowest power=not too fast flow speed)*, and then connect to the lily pipe*(just the personal thing that I really like the lily pipe...make that the second expensive thing besides the tank.)

AND, surprisingly some of the Japan supermarkets supply RO water for free as long as you bought the bottle for it. So today I found that out and tried it. The plants haven't been pearling or not quite satisfied with the water, but now! they are actually pearling even though I know it is not necessary. But I just like to see them happy!

Q:

I have been keeping testing the tank water. As for the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, they are very stable and great. BUT the ph has gone up to 7.5...which is not quite my goal as I wanted to keep Apisto....What should I do? Is it normal the PH is that high since plants wants acidic water?


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> Hey, I'm not sure about the red plants, especially if you want something that is all red. There might be a ludwigia that would work, but I'm not totally sure. But with higher light (your bulb is the same as mine) you can get the tops of some plants to be a bit red. My hygrophila polysperma does this, and its not even near the top of the water column yet.
> 
> As far as heat, you can put your heater horizontally (as long as its fully submersible) just a bit above the substrate (not touching it) and it will promote circulation from convection due to the heating of the lower levels. This is actually the way that Foo the Flowerhorns NPT was set up, at least for a while.


I think I will settle on what I have right now, they are all growing pretty good. I understand the difficulty of growing red plants. the rotala I have in the tank has more red leaves around the top the stem, where they are much closer to the light. I will let the tank grow a couple month since I just did a small trim on the rotala.

Looking pretty good.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

4/15

I am not sure if it is too much to do a weekly update on the tank, but the tank got some big changes in terms of the equipment, and few questions came up, so I think I should ask.
------

The original idea of no filter was for the none-noise environment, as my living room and the bedroom is connected with sliding doors...so noise will only make it obnoxious. However, the DIY sponge filter is submerged, therefore no sound is carried outward. The power of the motor is for HOB filter aiding up to 5L tank, the flow is not crazy and good for fish to exercise later on(I think? lol).

Overall, the flow IMO just add little aesthetic to the tank, since the lily pipe is aiming towards the back of the tank, where the stem plants are slightly moving. The RO water is a treasure found! I did little research to make sure it is RO water and seems like the plants are benefiting from it. Even though, it was planned to lower the PH (somehow didn't work as expected, maybe 4L RO compares to tank 16L is too little of the change.)

*Q:*

1. Speaking of the PH, I know the PH is also tied to the hardness of the water, and so my tank's KH：3°dH and GH: 8°dH. 
*I have no clue how to lower that without some acidic filter material, without adding more equipment, is there a biological way to lower that? 
*

2. From the picture above, you could see some of the brown dusty things on the wood, they are all over the tank, I siphoned some out and some sucked on the sponge. But I wonder what are those?


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

I'm not very good at water chemistry, but I think if you do a full water change with RO you could get really close to 7 pH and the soil decomposition might get you the rest of the way down to sub 7 after a week or two. If you do a DIY CO2 system then that will DEFINITELY lower your pH, but it probably would be a good idea to hold off on the CO2 until your tank is a little more established, just so you don't over do it. New dirted systems will have tons of nutrients and CO2 anyway. 

The stuff on the wood looks like a bacterial film, it's really common and not bad, except for being ugly. I used ramshorn snails to clear mine up, they were very effective, and now they do algae maintenance very well. Lots of people don't like ramshorns, but it is only the brown ones that eat healthy plants. If their body is brown, with a brown shell, then they're the brown ones. Mine are reds.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> I'm not very good at water chemistry, but I think if you do a full water change with RO you could get really close to 7 pH and the soil decomposition might get you the rest of the way down to sub 7 after a week or two. If you do a DIY CO2 system then that will DEFINITELY lower your pH, but it probably would be a good idea to hold off on the CO2 until your tank is a little more established, just so you don't over do it. New dirted systems will have tons of nutrients and CO2 anyway.
> 
> The stuff on the wood looks like a bacterial film, it's really common and not bad, except for being ugly. I used ramshorn snails to clear mine up, they were very effective, and now they do algae maintenance very well. Lots of people don't like ramshorns, but it is only the brown ones that eat healthy plants. If their body is brown, with a brown shell, then they're the brown ones. Mine are reds.


Thank you, I will do some research.

I have a zebra nerite in the tank


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Hello! Also came across Foo the Flowerhorn`s videos, watched them all and then somehow suddenly found this forum so Foo the Flowerhorn and D. Walstad realy unite peaple around the world!
Have read all you thread from the start and want to wish you luck with establishing your NPT. I am going to do the same in 2-3 month, so keep on posting us the progress of your tank!


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

LeTort said:


> Hello! Also came across Foo the Flowerhorn`s videos, watched them all and then somehow suddenly found this forum so Foo the Flowerhorn and D. Walstad realy unite peaple around the world!
> Have read all you thread from the start and want to wish you luck with establishing your NPT. I am going to do the same in 2-3 month, so keep on posting us the progress of your tank!


Wow! Sure his background music put me into a sleep so many time, but yeah this is a treasure found to me as well. It was like amazing to see something all connected through just a random search on YTB. Good luck with your tank! I am still learning as well.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> But with higher light (your bulb is the same as mine) you can get the tops of some plants to be a bit red.


Lately, I read through the post about low tech & high tech...which talking about the lighting, the plant growth and how it affects the setup. while I understand the high light needs more co2 input for plants to consume, the tank is running under an 11w bulb (5gallon tank, 2w per gallon)3-4 cm over the lid. I wonder if this is enough for the plants or should I invest a higher (about 20w) bulb?


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## David_L (Apr 13, 2019)

New convert to the hobby here as well, credit to Foo and Ms. Walstad. Great looking tank, Nelson! If you do try a higher wattage bulb, I'd suggest watching closely for algae as they'll happily capitalize on increased resource much faster than the plants will.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Nelsonfeelscool said:


> Lately, I read through the post about low tech & high tech...which talking about the lighting, the plant growth and how it affects the setup. while I understand the high light needs more co2 input for plants to consume, the tank is running under an 11w bulb (5gallon tank, 2w per gallon)3-4 cm over the lid. I wonder if this is enough for the plants or should I invest a higher (about 20w) bulb?


It's really up to you, but in my opinion since your tank hasn't been set up for too long it would be a good idea to leave thing as is for a while, as long as your plants are having healthy growth.

Also, because your bulb is so low you won't get much light near the top corners of your tank, so you might want to take that into consideration. Lower light plants could go in the corners, such as bacopa or some crypts, or you could get the stronger bulb and put it higher over the tank so its beam hits the entire tank (this is how Foo' lighting set-up works).


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You can lower the pH by lowering the KH. Since all water that is in contact with the atmosphere has CO2 in it, that links pH to KH. You can lower the KH in half by mixing half distilled water with half you current water. But, if the substrate is leaching any carbonates the KH will go back up soon. Incidentally, pH is not a very important parameter for an aquarium. Also, distilled water doesn't have a pH until something dissolves in it.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Permanent pH change is difficult to achieve without constant intervention. Let your tank stabilize for another month or so, then see what the pH is. Re apsitos, aquarium bred strains are not so sensitive to pH as they are to other water chemistry, such as ammonia and related compounds, and total dissolved solids. They need clean water, not necessarily low pH water.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

David_L said:


> New convert to the hobby here as well, credit to Foo and Ms. Walstad. Great looking tank, Nelson! If you do try a higher wattage bulb, I'd suggest watching closely for algae as they'll happily capitalize on increased resource much faster than the plants will.


I decided to stay where I am! Thank you! I am not gonna let the algae slip in!


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> It's really up to you, but in my opinion since your tank hasn't been set up for too long it would be a good idea to leave thing as is for a while, as long as your plants are having healthy growth.
> 
> Also, because your bulb is so low you won't get much light near the top corners of your tank, so you might want to take that into consideration. Lower light plants could go in the corners, such as bacopa or some crypts, or you could get the stronger bulb and put it higher over the tank so its beam hits the entire tank (this is how Foo' lighting set-up works).


I gave it a thought about this, the sudden light change before the settled environment would only cause a bad result.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> You can lower the pH by lowering the KH. Since all water that is in contact with the atmosphere has CO2 in it, that links pH to KH. You can lower the KH in half by mixing half distilled water with half you current water. But, if the substrate is leaching any carbonates the KH will go back up soon. Incidentally, pH is not a very important parameter for an aquarium. Also, distilled water doesn't have a pH until something dissolves in it.


the water is getting much more stable! in fact, the ph is gone down at least 6.4 or lower(where my tetra test strip couldn't tell any more.) but anyhow, I see some seed shrimps going around in the tank, assuming that's a good sign for the water environment is better now?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sounds good to me. I would just let nature take its course.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

19/4/27

So it has been little over 2 weeks, it's time to do an update on the tank.

it is officially one month old! ever since the circulation introduced into the water columns, the water has been very much stable. The tanning or yellowish water's PH stays below 6.5, every other harmful element stays low, as GH = 4 d and KH = 3 d. 

in terms of the livestock, I added two cleaning shrimps, they are thriving right now.
Since the water column is very stable at this point, and I do RO water change once a week. So I wonder if I could add fish at this point?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice, healthy tank! I think it is more than ready for some livestock.

If you're changing water once a week with R.O. water, I'd keep in mind that R.O. water has no nutrients and you already have a low GH (water hardness). The soil right now is giving plants the hardwater nutrients they need, but 6 months down the road, plants may become deprived. I would consider using tapwater from time-to-time or simply cutting back on water changes.

INHO, giving plants hardwater nutrients is more important than keeping the pH below say pH 7.8.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Nice, healthy tank! I think it is more than ready for some livestock.
> 
> If you're changing water once a week with R.O. water, I'd keep in mind that R.O. water has no nutrients and you already have a low GH (water hardness). The soil right now is giving plants the hardwater nutrients they need, but 6 months down the road, plants may become deprived. I would consider using tapwater from time-to-time or simply cutting back on water changes.
> 
> INHO, giving plants hardwater nutrients is more important than keeping the pH below say pH 7.8.


Interesting! I will cut down the schedule of the water change, maybe once per 2-2.5 weeks. And next time I will test the RO water a bit, I still doubt it is "pure" RO water.

In terms of the livestock, I thought I had to wait for 2 months, but hey I got proved by the author, I guess I could go for a shot!


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

So....a sad update for the tank...

Got a pair of Apisto bitaeniata...and...lost both of them...changed to Betta now

the reason for death is actually not fighting...although similar, they jumped out of the tank, I assume that they were chasing each other and jumped out... 

I am gonna change my lid to prevent further issue... this is sad...they were a pretty pair of fish...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sorry to hear for your loss.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Bettas will jump too but the long fin variety will have a hard time jumping above the waterline.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

mistergreen said:


> Bettas will jump too but the long fin variety will have a hard time jumping above the waterline.


I changed the lid and cut down the waterline since keeping fish safe is more important than the overall beauty, and yes I got a full moon which his tail is too long that swimming looks "tough"


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Sorry to hear for your loss.


I buried them under my indoor plants. I will set up a much bigger tank next time for sure. 20 gallon for a pair...


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Sorry to hear for your loss.


Since I was thinking about having another tank, I have looked into some of the tank set-ups. 
And recently, I found a guy, who did a lighting comparison for different brands of LED lights.

First of all, this is a question actually had me thinking for a long time, why fluorescent light, what's wrong about LED if it's the same equation (2w per gallon).

Secondly, this guy had 120*30*20 under 18W led, and he had his lights way higher than the nomal light fixture. Although it is with Co2, his tank is red enough that makes no sense to the 2W for gallon rule.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

19/6/14

two months and a half really fly by like a blink, the tank has been stable from two weeks in. As another post that I posted about the light, I have switched to a LED light with controllable light intensity, so it sits at 75% output, where the Lumi read is about 2700 at the level of the sand bed(which Hoppy suggested). So you can see some of the new growth of Glossostigma are much more dwarf than the previous one. I changed the layout a bit more, put an Aponogeton madagascariensis at the left corner, with the Crepts. added one pot of Hydrocotyle verticillata mix it up wit the Glossostigma to have a height variation for loan effect.


Livestock update:

- added two Dicrossus filamentous juvenals, 1 amano shrimp. After both Juvenals grow to sub-mature stage, they will be moved to the 20 gallon big tank with 1 pair of Ap. Agazzii.

- two wild shrimp died because of the chasing by the Dicrossus, one of shrimp are having eggs, so it was a big meal for the fishes...

- 3 lampeye killifish juvenals & Betta are safe and sound


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

19/7/3

Added a new bulb of Tiger lotus at the open space in the tank, so the Tank really started as NA style, but slowly turned in semi-Dutch style, LOL. 
The Aponogeton madagascariensis (lace plant) growth speed is just crazy, each everyday I see one new shot coming out, and it only takes less than one week to reach the surface.

Last week, I was fighting the Cyanobacteria, so finally did few BIG (50%+)water change and siphon the sand gravel, it seems like the stunted growth Crpyto wenditi is also coming back full speed, growing new shots. Happy to see plants thriving!

Fishes are mostly happy, except one Dicrossus got stuck in the filter motor, when I put it back in and forgot to put any cover on the intake...That was my mistake...Sad evening.

so now the tank left with:
1 halfmoon betta
2 lampeye
4 Dicrossus 2F-1M (confirmed) 1F/M (Unkown)

The new 20H tank coming in next week, 60(L)x45(H)x30(D) total 75L. I am trying to make it semi-biotope(Planted tank), since Dicrossus will only take the bottom area the height as 45cm hopefully is not overkill. But I could enjoy the plants as well, so why not.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Fighting the Cyanobacteria

I have looking into some of the fertilizer product, none of it states as nitrate as most likely I need it for fighting off Cyano. Anyone has a suggest?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Stump Remover, sold in hardware stores or Home Depot type stores, is Potassium Nitrate. https://www.amazon.com/Spectracide-...s=gateway&sprefix=stump+,undefined,200&sr=8-4
It is the same as what we dose for potassium and nitrates.

I suggest you get a nitrate test kit and verify that you really are short of nitrates. That is unusual.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

but a heavy planted tank should short of nitrate, no?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A heavily planted tank, with lots of light, and added CO2 is going to be short of nitrates if they are not dosed. But, a heavily planted, lower light tank, with no added CO2, would have much slower growing plants, and more likely would also have nitrates in the water. Adding floating plants, with access to atmospheric CO2, should cause the nitrates in the water to be depleted. At least that's what I believe will happen.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> A heavily planted tank, with lots of light, and added CO2 is going to be short of nitrates if they are not dosed. But, a heavily planted, lower light tank, with no added CO2, would have much slower growing plants, and more likely would also have nitrates in the water. Adding floating plants, with access to atmospheric CO2, should cause the nitrates in the water to be depleted. At least that's what I believe will happen.


interesting... I do have a lot floaters, which grows pretty fast, plus lots of stems (rotala*2, ludwigia*2) at the low-mid light, about 2.5wpg, that might be the reason...


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> A heavily planted tank, with lots of light, and added CO2 is going to be short of nitrates if they are not dosed. But, a heavily planted, lower light tank, with no added CO2, would have much slower growing plants, and more likely would also have nitrates in the water. Adding floating plants, with access to atmospheric CO2, should cause the nitrates in the water to be depleted. At least that's what I believe will happen.


Right now, I am doing about 30% water change every week, if I cut it to, say, 2to3 week, will the nitrates stock up? 
And researching all over the place, just made me so confused. With nitrogen cycle and nitrates, and there is Nitrogen liquid fert, aren't they all N? so is that means in all ways possible necessary I need to dose nitrogen liquid fert since this is the easiest(expensive) way? or cheap things like KNO3(I don't believe there is any fert like that)? Plus I live in Japan, so I don't know if the Stump Remover or any KNO3 is available in store in what form or what's called in Japanese(lol)..


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't recall what lighting you are using on that tank. In any case, "watts per gallon" is not a measure of light intensity. For more details see: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/184368-lighting-aquarium-par-instead-watts.html So, you may have high light instead of low to medium light.

Potassium nitrate, KNO3, is viewed as a restricted chemical in many nations, thinking it could be used to make a gun powder like explosive. That can make it hard to purchase in those countries. But, I suspect you can get fertilizers like Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen in most countries. That contains potassium nitrate, and can be used to add nitrates to the waterr


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> I don't recall what lighting you are using on that tank. In any case, "watts per gallon" is not a measure of light intensity. For more details see: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/184368-lighting-aquarium-par-instead-watts.html So, you may have high light instead of low to medium light.
> 
> Potassium nitrate, KNO3, is viewed as a restricted chemical in many nations, thinking it could be used to make a gun powder like explosive. That can make it hard to purchase in those countries. But, I suspect you can get fertilizers like Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen in most countries. That contains potassium nitrate, and can be used to add nitrates to the waterr


 2750 lux around 38 par. I see, so basically dose Nitrogen is the way to go


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm thinking that you may have a little too much light. I'm assuming you got that lux measurement without water influencing the intensity. With water in the tank, if the glass walls of the tank are kept clean, both inside and outside, you get a lot of reflected light off the glass, which increases the intensity in the tank. That increase can be substantial with LED lights. If that is what is happening, you might do better if you reduced the intensity, as measured in air, by about 25%.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> I'm thinking that you may have a little too much light. I'm assuming you got that lux measurement without water influencing the intensity. With water in the tank, if the glass walls of the tank are kept clean, both inside and outside, you get a lot of reflected light off the glass, which increases the intensity in the tank. That increase can be substantial with LED lights. If that is what is happening, you might do better if you reduced the intensity, as measured in air, by about 25%.


I see! I will adjust the height and intensity of the LED.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

19/07/12

They are Back! 

Which, I mean the Rotala Hra is coming back and healthy! 
After a frustration of the BGA slowly happening on the gravel and most of stem plants, I just did a huge trimming cut off everything...Basically this is when I realized that the low tech setup will be enough for them to recover from this catastrophic cutting. Therefore, I decided to add Co2 and Ferts, (still in mid lighting 38 PAR) plus the Nitrogen shortage really has affected the tank on every level, from melting leaves, stunted growth to just simply the cause of BGA. 

The cause made me realize that the dirt that I used is for foliage house plants, which that probably contains nothing(no nutrients, it has be added after I checked the description on the bag) but dirt, so it couldn't really support the jungle of the plants I have in the tank for a long term. 

SO I think this is the end of this low tech try. For the most part of this 100 days, learnt much more than I expected, and I don't think going high tech is the easy way out, matter fact there will be more difficulty about overall control of the tank environment.

As for the algae, I didn't really mind them, in fact I like most of them for the natural look, BUT not the Cyanobacteria...which drives me crazy...


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

I would say you had a quite successful start, and we can't really expect to do it well on our first try, haha. I Have had my first Walstad set up for 7 months and I am also experiencing low nitrate problems, which is interesting because it seems that both of us chose to start our tanks a soil that is lower in nutrients than what is recommended in Walstad's book. Maybe it goes to show that high nutrient soils are pretty important.

Will you continue on with this tank, but not as a Walstad tank? I think I will eventually take mine down and try a clay soil like fluorite, or maybe even saf-t-sorb, hahaha. I'm interested in comparing my success with soil against a clay that is designed to have a good cation exchange capacity.


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## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

beautiful nano tank!!


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Reediculous_nanotank said:


> I would say you had a quite successful start, and we can't really expect to do it well on our first try, haha. I Have had my first Walstad set up for 7 months and I am also experiencing low nitrate problems, which is interesting because it seems that both of us chose to start our tanks a soil that is lower in nutrients than what is recommended in Walstad's book. Maybe it goes to show that high nutrient soils are pretty important.
> 
> Will you continue on with this tank, but not as a Walstad tank? I think I will eventually take mine down and try a clay soil like fluorite, or maybe even saf-t-sorb, hahaha. I'm interested in comparing my success with soil against a clay that is designed to have a good cation exchange capacity.


I don't have the book, and I found the method through a wikipedia page about the method, as well as the video got me in. therefore, starting right off the bat I was like "alright, whatever soil i could find on the market then" type of deal.

IDK yet, I have thought about taking it down but I am dosing ferts and maybe later adding root tabs, so i might give it little more time. Not sure about the CEC of this dirt, but I might add some Akadama to balance it.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

I have heard that even innert gravels with mulm in them have some CEC, and Walstad's book mentions that nutrient depletion in the soil hadn't been a problem for her, which would suggest that at least with her water and soil there is a good CEC.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nelsonfeelscool said:


> I don't have the book, and I found the method through a wikipedia page about the method, as well as the video got me in. therefore, starting right off the bat I was like "alright, whatever soil i could find on the market then" type of deal.
> 
> IDK yet, I have thought about taking it down but I am dosing ferts and maybe later adding root tabs, so i might give it little more time. Not sure about the CEC of this dirt, but I might add some Akadama to balance it.


I would read the book before you go down the fertilizer pathway. People think that an NPT is just about using soil, which by the way has plenty of CEC. The problem is that people use filters that remove all the CO2, change water that removes all the nutrients, plant hard-to-grow aquascaping plants, etc. The _perfect_ soil will not work unless the reader has some understanding of the other factors involved.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> I would read the book before you go down the fertilizer pathway. People think that an NPT is just about using soil, which by the way has plenty of CEC. The problem is that people use filters that remove all the CO2, change water that removes all the nutrients, plant hard-to-grow aquascaping plants, etc. The _perfect_ soil will not work unless the reader has some understanding of the other factors involved.


Thank you for the advice!! I understand you perfectly, but I think the NPT is about balance, which I really don't think the balance will maintain after the catastrophic cutting (literally every plants). I put minimum Co2 as possible, its rate is at 1 bubble per 2 second, and lean fert (just ADA Nitrogen), and I see drastic different on BGA since after research I knew the Nitrogen deficiency is the problem, because I don't have many live stocks in the tank, and doesn't feed as much(once 2 days). But now I see the Rotala is coming back without any algae, which I am pleased.

So all in all, I don't think I will keep on going on this route, I really want to give the NPT another try after the rotala fully recover and balance restored. I am sorry that last few posts sounded like that I give up the method, it's just that the balance might need little push IMO.

For this past 4 month, the things I learnt is either the NPT or the full-on-tech to me the key is low maintenance. As I read everything on that "low tech vs high tech" post, I agree to most of the people on their point of view, but I really think whichever gives me less time to worry about the tank is the best method. I still have low-mid light as Hopper suggested, DIY sponge filter, cheap soil and sand, now adding low rate of co2, lean fert, doesn't really push plants to trimming-hog schedule, just enough that I could enjoy the tank has little more Red color in the tank.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

@Nelsonfeelscool Makes sense! Once we understand the method it still just comes down to preference.

By the way, I saw your comment on an Aquarium Co-op instagram post and started following your account. You have some really cool pictures on there, and I especially appreciate the ones of your tank. 😄


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## barongan (Jul 31, 2018)

Looks like this very interesting method.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

19/07/24

I think I give it an update, where the tank has recovered back to the previous blue-green algae free stage, so i wanted to try the El-Natural again, turn light back to 50% which it is about 40 PAR, sponge filter is still running good, maybe lean dose once another day(Since I have the ferts, and ADA is pretty lean I believe) The only high tech gimmick is the Twinstar M3, the effect was pretty effective, by looking at algae growth inside of the lily pipe. Before using it, the lily pipe would be full of algae since it is closer to the light and there is no plants, but now there is almost none for past month that I was using the little twinstar algae "prevention".


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Sponge filters are excellent biological filters, meaning that they absorb ammonia and convert it to less toxic nitrates. But this actually starves the plants, which are very happy to absorb the ammonia themselves. If you need circulation, just use a pump or a filter with only mechanical media in it.

What does the Twinstar do exactly? I've read the descriptions on line, but they are vague and talk about "microbubbles". Microbubbles of what?


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

Michael said:


> Sponge filters are excellent biological filters, meaning that they absorb ammonia and convert it to less toxic nitrates. But this actually starves the plants, which are very happy to absorb the ammonia themselves. If you need circulation, just use a pump or a filter with only mechanical media in it.
> 
> What does the Twinstar do exactly? I've read the descriptions on line, but they are vague and talk about "microbubbles". Microbubbles of what?


Yeah, I believe that was one of the reason led the first BGA outbreak, and I got frustrated and got some nitrogen liquid fert, which that help a lot(I think). so recent test strip on the water shows that the nitrate is steady at 20~25ppm, which is good enough.

As for the twinstar m3, I have researched a lot of place, planted tank forum, the UK plant forum. Everyone has their opinion, so I figure that it was because of I couldn't afford to do high tech thus lean towards low tech, if twinstar claims that works, I would love to try it out since being nerdy as a person.

The function is releasing micro electrified bubbles to eliminate algae spores from the initial propagation stage, and he experience so far is fine.

Few things I would say being very obvious:
1. Surface film, I don't know what had caused the oily film on the tank, most of I assume is the dead bacteria build up, and every since twinstar was introduced, there is no more surface oil, That's pretty cool I'd say.

2. Really less algae, or is the tank being really balance, I am not quite sure, but the reality is the algae didn't occur as much anymore after I installed it.

But next big tank will be a hybrid that I am going build this weekend, with a 18W led spot-planted grow light on 20 gallon high tank, PAR reads at 45, injected Co2, ADA amazonia II, no heater, low power head sponge fitler. I believe the initial 1~1.5 month will certainly be the algae battle, no matter the Co2 is injected or not, simple the nutrients is too much in the water column. 
Therefore I will try the twinstar on this one, see if really works! that would be pretty excited.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Gadgets, fertilizers, and mixed methods... No appreciation for Mother Nature or science...

I would try experimenting with a _pure_ Walstad method. My website contains a nice article 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp' that describes the setup of small tanks where you can try out the Walstad method. https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/

Mixed methods and multiple variables lead to mixed results and confusion. Impossible to follow or draw any meaningful conclusions. Better to set up a pure High Tech tank.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Gadgets, fertilizers, and mixed methods... No appreciation for Mother Nature or science...


As soon as fish or plants get put in a glass box any pure sense of nature goes out the window, regardless of the method. I'm not saying anything against aquaria or the hobby, or your method, but I don't think anyone can claim to actually hold nature in their living room, or say that their method is natural. More natural than other methods, certainly, but not 'natural' in its real sense. Even if you boxed in a section of a pond, where a full ecosystem exists, the act of boxing it in would violate it's natural processes such that, in my opinion, it is no longer natural. To me nature implies a total lack of human influence. In my opinion this means that in aquaria one can only show appreciation for aquaria, not pure nature. We can only create an imperfect imitations.


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## Reediculous_nanotank (Jan 12, 2019)

Haha, I guess some glitch has made each of edits create a whole new post. Sorry about this. Only my last post was intended.


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## Nelsonfeelscool (Apr 3, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Gadgets, fertilizers, and mixed methods... No appreciation for Mother Nature or science...
> 
> I would try experimenting with a _pure_ Walstad method. My website contains a nice article 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp' that describes the setup of small tanks where you can try out the Walstad method. https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/
> 
> Mixed methods and multiple variables lead to mixed results and confusion. Impossible to follow or draw any meaningful conclusions. Better to set up a pure High Tech tank.


The 19L is continuing to be a pure walstad method, I have removed every gadgets except the airstone and the in tank sponge power head filter, the part that I need co2 was because of the BGA outbreak led to cut off everything, so I need some push otherwise re-scape is definite because of the off balance. As now it is gone, I think it is matured enough to adjust itself to the level.

Speaking of nature, the word certainly is my tank layout approach but maybe not everything in the process, that to be said, I appreciate the lower management of the method. Both tanks are intended to be display tanks at the first place, I would really love to have more choice of plants and fish. Trying tech tech in the new 20 gallon is also a process, things could change, maybe I found it out that I might not need Co2 anymore since the tank becomes matured. But I believe In the process of the 5 gallon, I learnt from you and many others, that the balance is more important than just have everything as close as nature.

I understand using the aqua soil, the co2 is no where close to walsted method, but the light wattage 18w certainly not enough for 20 gallon high tech, the fert might never be used since I have aquasoil, the twinstar gadget was just a fun thing to test with. So all in all, it is the Co2 and soil being more heavier than a normal walsted method. So if low light, provides co2 would give plants what they need, but not algae, I believe it would be a happy result for me.


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