# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Added plants and almost all fish died



## Gary42 (Feb 18, 2006)

Well, just woke up to 3 of my four discus dead and my siamese algae eater. I guess in the night after I put in my new plants( alot of them such as gloss, red temple, Indica) my ph shot up to 8.0 from 6.8. Man, this is a expensive mistake. The only survivors seem to be one discus, 3 ottos, a cockatoo apisto and a pandora apisto that seems to be hanging on for life. Any help on getting my appistos to be more happy campers would be nice. My phosphates lately have been through the roof at 5ppm and yes I do very regular water changes along with a phos guard from Seachem. I also have peat granular in my Fluval canister filter. Thus the whole reason I got more plants was to use up those excess phosphates and get rid of my green hair algae.
Didnt know how to do the 5% bleach treatment so didn't do it. Just pruned the plants affected down to almost nubs. Was winning the algae war when this PH spike happened..god I feel so stupid. 
My tank stats are..
55gal 
2 130w Coralife compact lights 5wpg
Pressurized C02
GH=120
PH had been a steady 6.8/PH now is between 7.2 and 7.6 Was 8.0 when I pulled the dead fish out.
N03=40ppm
N02=between .5-1.00
GH=120ppm
total alkaline buffering is 80ppm
Ok, I am ready to be raked over the coals for my incompetence with the plants. I just put in Seachem discus buffer so that should get my ph back to normal but why the ph spike with the addition of plants and why are my apistos not eating or acting happy as when they first got in the tank. LFS guy said that he got the apistos from Florida and the ph there is around 7.0 but all the books and reading say that they thrive in much lower Ph's. Any help would be appreciated.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Were the lights on when the fish died?

If so, then the pH spike probably happened because the plants used your 5 watts per gallon and consumed almost all of the CO2 in the tank. pH increases as CO2 drops.

If not then pH may not have been the problem -- only a symptom that came along with the package. At night plants use oxygen, much like animals. The combined night-time effects of adding a lot of plants and breaking up existing bacterial colonies in the substrate while planting can create a very sharp increase in the oxygen demand. If the tank is already warm (as are most discus tanks) and/or overcrowded then you may have lethal conditions.

If you need to keep the pH low in a well-lit planted tank then you need to add CO2.

Last time I checked, Discus Buffer added a lot of phosphate.

Have you kept planted tanks before? If not, then there are probably a few other details that you may not be aware of.


Roger Miller


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## Gary42 (Feb 18, 2006)

I usually turn my CO2 off at night due to the fact that I read that it starves fish from Oxygen at night. I also turn off my two sets of lights to get a little cooler for the Apisto. My CO2 is pressurized and is fed into my tank via my canister filter. I still have an apisto hanging in a corner at the top of my tank looking like he needs more oxygen. The remaining fish seem to be doing fine but I have yet to see my discus or one pandora apisto eat. I do have my spray bar creating enough surface turbulance to create enough oxygen, I think. I am at my wits end with what to do to get my fish back to a happy medium. I do have two of my plants doing the champaigne affect which is sort of a good sign for my plants.
As I said before, I appreciate any and all suggestions. Yes this is my first planted tank but I have done alot of reading on this site and others like the krib. Guess I should have done more reading on what happens when you add plants to your tank.







Next week I plan on getting a Ph monitor for my CO2 dosing but will still do Ph and GH testing frequently to keep those under observation.


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## Gary42 (Feb 18, 2006)

Oh, forgot to ask..was wondering if you had any suggestions as to how to get my phosphates down.. 
I resorted to Discus buffer only because I wanted to get my Ph down to a safe level in a relatively short time.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

It sounds like you may have had an oxygen crisis at night and then the pH went up the next day.

It's really hard to predict when something like that will happen. The one time that happened to me was in an almost unplanted cichlid tank. It was summer and the tank was warm. I added a pair of kribs, which created a big jump in the bioload. Then I rearranged the tank to break up everybody's territories. Next morning the water was cloudy and all but two of the fish were dead.

It took a long time to figure out what happened. Then I read about the effect of breaking up existing biofilms.

At any rate, the only practical way to get the phosphate back down quickly is to do a series of *large* water changes. The first one in the series in particular needs to be as large as you can make it. After you get it down with water changes you can pull it down farther with a phosphate removing resin. Don't take it all out, because the plants need it.

On the other hand, high phosphate isn't as evil as it is sometimes made out to be. You don't really have to get it down right away, but if you want to get the tank back on track then you should probably do it when time is available.

Roger Miller


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## Gary42 (Feb 18, 2006)

Ahhh, thank you so much.. that is what must have happened. Man, ecosystems are sooo temperamental. I think that until I get that Ph monitor I'am going to lay off the CO2 and just go with one of my lights being on during the day to give the one apisto a chance to get back into the swing of things. I have also put a air diffuser and bar to put more oxygen into the tank for him. I know my tank would not win any AGA awards looking the way it does now, but at least I won't lose any more fish. I also bought a couple of cory's to keep the excess food down to a minimum.
I think I might even get bold enough to try that PPMMD or something like that fert recipe.
Thanks for your input..


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

I can't come up with a reason for why the plants should necessarily be the source of the problem here. Perhaps it is a nightly O2 shortage, in which case an air stone at night might help?!?

Kinda grasping on this one,
Brian.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Gary,

If you want to keep the pH down for the Apisto's sake then keeping the CO2 running is probably the way to do it.

This isn't usually a problem, but the ideal solution would be to (as BSS suggested) run an airstone at night and CO2 during the day. With lights on and CO2 up the plants will put more oxygen in the tank than aeration and circulation ever will.

If you want to keep a planted tank then you should start fertilizing sooner rather than later. You can probably find comprehensive fertilizers at a local shop.


Roger Miller


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## Gary42 (Feb 18, 2006)

I have put 4 or five Seachem fert tabs close to my swords but maybe that might have been over kill. I have also been adding flourish once every other week as well as iron and potassium.
I recieved a Ocelot sword from the LFS and looked half dead. She said I could have it for free as it was not looking good at all. It now has two new red leafs and looking real healthy. As for the overload on the phosphates, I'am going to let the plants deplete that in good time. The lady at the LFS said that Phosguard would take two weeks to do its job so that might take care of it too. I think that my one apisto may have brain damage..lol He still stays at the top and I have one airstone and a tube blowing huge bubbles into the tank. I'll take your suggest and run them at night too. The Cockatoo apisto and remaining blue discus are back to eating, hooray. btw...Do you remember where you read that article about the stirring up the substrate during planting and raising the Ph?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Disturbing the substrate wouldn't normally effect pH, though it could if you had some carbonate minerals in the gravel. It can have an effect on the oxygen demand. The source was a technical article on biofilms, but I can't give you the specific reference. It was years ago.

The concept is that under stable conditions, most of the bacterial population in the tank forms biofilm communities on surfaces and in the substrate. Those communities are only noticeable where they get particularly thick.

Within a biofilm community oxygen and nutrients are available at the surface of the film and the levels drop off sharply for anything living deeper in the film. That controls the growth rate and oxygen demand of the community. In thicker communities there are complex structures that work to offset that effect, but they don't cancel it out entirely.

If you disurb the substrate in a planted tank and otherwise break up the biofilm communities you also lift the restrictions on the availability of nutrients and oxygen. That can lead initially to high growth rates and large oxygen demands. If it continues long enough then you can get a full-blown bacterial bloom and severe oxygen depletion.

In your case it doesn't sound like that was the sole problem, but it may have been a contributor.


Roger Miller


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## malcalypse (May 4, 2006)

Aren't fish gasping at the top of the tank often a sign of nitrite?

This sometimes is seen with increased bioload, but I wouldn't include plants in that equation.

Snails? That doesn't sound right.

Maybe you have something dead in there you didn't see?

If there aren't any nitrites, I would go with the oxygen theory.


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