# EI dosing in pump style - please help.



## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

I am requesting some simple instructions from some chemically gifted people.

I have grown plants in both EI and ADA ferts. I generally have found that I can get by on aquasoil and Brighty K for 6 months then I run into deficiency issues. I don't want to fork out the money for Special Lights when I have pounds of dry ferts around. So i switch to EI with dry salts.

I like the cost effectiveness and the "all-things in all-places" you get with the EI + aquasoil combo. I also really like the simplicity of pump dosing with liquids. 

So here's my question. I have all these 500ml bottles that have pumps that deliver 1ml per pump. Can someone help me make stock solutions that will give me EI dosing of KNO3 and KH2PO4 in the following amounts 1, ml pump of each solution gives me EI levels for 10 gallons? I would also like to know how to make a CSM+B solution in the same way. 

I see that it could be done in two ways. The typical EI way of dosing Macro and Micro on alternating days or in daily dosing fashion, to be clear: a solution could be made that would give EI levels if 1 ml per 10 gallon were dosed every other day, or a solution could be made to dose EI levels if 1 ml per 10 gallon were dosed every day.

I would prefer to go with a daily dosing solution. The advantage for me is that I usually have to hand over tank maintenance for a few days to someone and it is easier for them to remember to do something every day than to keep track of which day to do what. From what I have read it seems that there may be some chemical reasons to add micro and macro on alternate days. If these facts get in the way of my daily dosing request than so be it.

So in the end I would like to have 3 bottles, 500ml each: 
1 bottle of KNO3 solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, 1ml pump per 10 gallons dosed daily
1 bottle of KH2PO4 solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, 1ml pump per 10 gallons daily
1 bottle of CSM+B (or something better) that delivers EI target levels at 1, 1ml pump per 10 gallons dosed daily. 

I am sorry but I am not so smart or educated in these matters. I am sure this information is out there but I can't find it or cannot extrapolate how to do what I am requesting here with the data that is out there.

If someone can provide simple instructions on this really think it will be a serious win for the hobby. Empty 500 ml bottles with 1 ml pumps are easy to come by. Daily dosing of liquid ferts in with pump bottles is easy and popular, just look at how much money is being extracted from hobbyists who want or feel they need this kind of simplicity.

If this can be done I certainly think it would be sticky worthy. Thanks in advance!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

lanceduffy said:


> I am requesting some simple instructions from some chemically gifted people.


This is easy to do with wet's calculator. His calculator is just plain awesome! You can do many types of calculations with it using many different chemicals and solutions.
http://calc.petalphile.com/



lanceduffy said:


> So here's my question. I have all these 500ml bottles that have pumps that deliver 1ml per pump. Can someone help me make stock solutions that will give me EI dosing of KNO3 and KH2PO4 in the following amounts 1, ml pump of each solution gives me EI levels for 10 gallons? I would also like to know how to make a CSM+B solution in the same way.


You can do 1mL doses for KH2PO4 and CSM+B, but not with KNO3. For KNO3, you will have to dose 2mL (2 x 1mL). A 1mL dose exceeds the solubility limit of KNO3. (You can also change the amount dosed to any amount as long as it is 1.7mL or higher which is above the solubility limit for KNO3. Also, going to a larger container trying to still dose 1mL doesn't work either. Your concentration is still the same and above the solubility limit.)

The calculator gives you the following warning telling you that something is wrong:
The solubility of KNO3 at room temperature is 360 mg/mL. 
You should adjust your dose.

results to 3 decimal places
KNO3 - 2mL dose - 115.729g - 7.50 ppm NO3, 4.73 ppm K 
KH2PO4 - 1mL dose - 35.256g - 1.30 ppm PO4, 0.54 ppm K
CSM+B - 1mL dose - 144.924g - 0.50 ppm Fe



lanceduffy said:


> So in the end I would like to have 3 bottles, 500ml each:
> 1 bottle of KNO3 solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, 1ml pump per 10 gallons dosed daily
> 1 bottle of KH2PO4 solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, 1ml pump per 10 gallons daily
> 1 bottle of CSM+B (or something better) that delivers EI target levels at 1, 1ml pump per 10 gallons dosed daily.


Actually, you will have:
1 bottle of KNO3 solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, *2ml* pumped per 10 gallons dosed daily
1 bottle of KH2PO4 solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, *1ml* pump per 10 gallons daily
1 bottle of CSM+B solution that delivers EI target levels at 1, *1ml* pump per 10 gallons daily



lanceduffy said:


> If someone can provide simple instructions on this...


go to: http://calc.petalphile.com/

directions for this example
10 *.* US gal
using *.* diy
dosing with KNO3, KH2PO4 and CSM+B in this case, choose from the drop down box
using *.* a solution
container 500mL
each dose 1mL or 2mL in this case
calculation for "The Estimative Index" in this case, choose from the drop down box
click on "Gimmie" for the answer


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## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

Thank you so very much. I am at work now and have a crazy week ahead of me. Hopefully I will have time this evening to understand what is going on here. Thanks again.


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## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

Ok, got it. This is awesome! Thanks, I still have some questions:
Are there some guidelines for mixing these with water? Such as use RO,DI water? Should I use hydrochloric acid or excel to keep some mixes viable? If so which ones and how much of these additives? Keep in the fridge or out of light or in plain daylight? 

I also saw there was an option for "EI Daily." I am unfamiliar with this but would really like this option for when I hand my tank over to someone else for a few days. I have heard tell that it is bad to mix macro and micro dosing for some odd reason. Is there any weight to this or am I misunderstanding something?

Are there any downsides to doing EI daily with solutions? I hope not because this seems awesome!


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

lanceduffy said:


> Ok, got it. This is awesome! Thanks, I still have some questions:
> Are there some guidelines for mixing these with water? Such as use RO,DI water? Should I use hydrochloric acid or excel to keep some mixes viable? If so which ones and how much of these additives? Keep in the fridge or out of light or in plain daylight?
> 
> I also saw there was an option for "EI Daily." I am unfamiliar with this but would really like this option for when I hand my tank over to someone else for a few days. I have heard tell that it is bad to mix macro and micro dosing for some odd reason. Is there any weight to this or am I misunderstanding something?
> ...


In the order that you ask the questions... RO water is best, but most just use tap water to make solutions. If your water is really hard, then using RO water may alleviate any problems you have. That said, i'd just use tap water and check that you don't have any solubility issues first before you make it any more complicated on youself.

Trace mixes go bad faster than macro mixes. Many people report that adding excel @ ~1-5% volume works to keep things from growing in your bottles.

Keeping the trace mix in the fridge is also an option, but not necessary if you use a preservative.

It is best to keep your solutions out of light to keep things from growing in them, esp the trace mix. That said, the solutions are not photosensitive (well, except maybe the trace mix...).

The "EI Daily" option is simply adding half the recommended volume of fertilizers every day. So everyday you would simply dose half the recommended macro and micro solutions.

The phosphates in the macro solution can react with the Iron in the micro solution, resulting in an iron phosphate precipitate. This is why you need to make up two solutions and why it is suggested the macros and the micro solutions not be added on the same day. That said, i add both solutions to my aquarium daily and do not have a problem with the formation of a precipitate in the aquarium, indicated by cloudy aquarium water. Some people do, however, and it is something to look out for.

I hope this answers your questions...


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Is the 2mL dose of KNO3 going to mess up your plans?

Some people mix extra Fe with their CSM+B mix. Somewhat like an 1:4 ratio of DTPA Fe (11%) to CSM+B. Some also add Fe gluconate. Would this be something that you might do?


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## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

Thanks for all the answers.

Left C, the 2ml dose will not mess up my plans. I just need to take a sharpie and write the number of squirts on the bottle so that my wife can administer the correct amount when I am out. No problems. 

Also if I wanted, I could switch to EI daily (I'm inclined to do this anyway) and get the solubility where it needs to be to do EI daily with KNO3 in 1ml per dose 10 gallon. 

What I like about the squirts is that it gets me to EI or EI Daily in the such a way that it is scaleable in an intuitive way for me. I deal with small volume aquariums so 10 gallons is a great place to start. That way if I am dosing my 60p, I can start with 4 squirts of KNO3, 2 of KH2PO4 and 2 of CSM+B. If I see phosphate deficiency, I can adjust to 3 squirts and watch for changes. It just makes sense to me. 

This all came up because I have this iwagumi 60p that I started about 6 months ago. I used the New Aquasoil and things have been going well just dosing Brighty K and Step 2. This ADA dosing thing was an experiment, my second experiment with this. To qualify I have some hard water here. I have started to see signs of PO deficiency. In the ADA dosing system this means I have to pony up for some Special Lights. Well I have been to camp EI and I have plenty of dry ferts. 

I just can't bring myself to pay 20 dollars for a liquid form of what I have as salts in my closet. But I do love the squirt based dosing and it does make it easier on my wife to help me out when I am away from the tank. So I figured there had to be an answer and you good people helped out.


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## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

Left C,
I don't know if I would add extra FE. I have no red plants. Nor have I ever had perceived FE issues while dosing Step 2 or CSM+B. What would you suggest?

Last thing I can think of, dose anyone know where i can find a cheap accurate scale to measure the dry ferts? I have a digital scale for baking at home. Its nice but I just checked it for accuracy and it is only +-3 grams accurate and I don't really trust it.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

lanceduffy said:


> Left C,
> I don't know if I would add extra FE. I have no red plants. Nor have I ever had perceived FE issues while dosing Step 2 or CSM+B. What would you suggest?


The reason that I asked is that the guys at Tropica, Tom Barr and others have found that we weren't dosing enough trace elements in the original EI in many situations. So they are dosing more now. Some even add chelated iron and iron gluconate too. The reason that extra iron is added is to simply just add iron and not any more of the other trace elements like copper and so forth.

In your situation, if you don't think that there is an issue, it is your call.

If I am remembering right, the newest version of wet's calculator takes into account the extra iron and some other adjustments as well. But, at the present time, the calculator doesn't allow you to use more than one trace product for your trace solution. This has to be done partially manually and along with the calculator too.



lanceduffy said:


> Last thing I can think of, dose anyone know where i can find a cheap accurate scale to measure the dry ferts? I have a digital scale for baking at home. Its nice but I just checked it for accuracy and it is only +-3 grams accurate and I don't really trust it.


I bought a nice one from AquaticEcoSystems.com that reads to 1 decimal place. We really need one that goes to 2 decimal places in many circimstances. I ran across a nice jewelers' scale that is reads to 3 decimal places at a good price that has a calibration feature.

Many people get their scales from eBay. There are some at decent prices. How accurate some of these are might be questionable. We would not know unless we tried them.


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