# EI fertilization for dummies



## dimsum_424

I've been reading the EI article by Tom Barr on his site....and still i have a lil (alot) trouble figuring out how to dose and what to dose...i dont quite get ppm and how they all add up with each fertilizer...i dont want to get any expensive test kits and dont want to end up buying cheap ones that arent accurate...so how would i start out figuring what to dose if i really dont know what my tap water here in chicago consists of?...im just starting off with planted tanks...and wish there was a _*EI for dummies* _ article that would really help beginners like me who are interested....any advice?...


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## |squee|

Lemme try.

First figure out what's in your tap water. Give a call to your local water company or search their webpages or something. Personally I don't really care about mine, so far it hasn't given me any problems because I do the 50% weekly WC.

Next,

from the EI:
CO2 range 20-30ppm
NO3 range 5-30ppm
K+ range 10-30ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher (?)
GH range 3 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher

The above is a range of values given by Tom Barr as a guideline of nutrients you should have in your tank.

The CO2 is _most important_. Invest in a kH and pH test kit and settle this first. Make sure it's *constantly* at 30ppm throughout the photoperiod.

Once you're done with the CO2, the rest comes easily. Get some source of NPK, like the ferts from Greg Watson, or you can buy Seachem's bottles, along with a source of trace elements.

Go to the Fertilator, and input experimental values into it so you know how much you should dose to get how much ppm in your tank.

That done, all that's left is your loyalty of 50% weekly water changes so that no nutrient builds up to extreme levels.

Once you're pretty comfortable with your tank and understands how it works, you can start varying the concentrations of each chemcial to tailor to your individual tank needs. For example, what will happen if I add 6ppm of PO4? As time goes by, you can even do away with weekly water changes and make do with once-a-month or something.

I hope what I've said was correct. 8-[

Perhaps Tom is still the best man to explain it all to you.


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## defdac

*ppm ranges..*

Since dimsum said ppm is confusing, all the ppm-ranges |squee| stated will be even more so I guess.

If you, dimsum, had stated the size of the tank we would be able to tell you exactly how much of each PMDD-ingredient you should use. Which micronutrient are you using today? (TMG, Seachem Flourish, CSM+B?)


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## |squee|

Well ppm is a measure of the level of concentration of a particular nutrient/chemical. It's the same as mg/l. The Fertilator calculates all these for you, it's just the matter of reading off values isn't it?


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## defdac

To experienced aquarists that rambles ppms in their sleep the Fertilator and all other calculators are a *very* good tool, but beginners run away from them and few people enjoy reading up on chemical formulas and want to know which hydrous form their CaIsDLlas2jskd2 is in when they just want to grow pretty plants.

I'm not saying one should be ignorant and not try to learn, but beginners need more of instructions like "Take 1 tsp of powder one and mix with this and that amount of water - do this two or three times a week and reset with a weekly waterchange. Keep up on CO2 and fluff/prune/pick good before waterchange. Finished".

If one want to know why this works there will be all the knowledge in the world here or other forums to read.

This was offtopic and I hope it didn't sound harsh or flamy, I just help out beginners *alot* here in Sweden. Some like to know why something works in every single little detail (like me), but the big part does not.


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## dimsum_424

defdac...i dont think you're harsh...i need this criticism...even if im a newbie with all this...but i have done alot of research...it just doesnt seem to sink in...its just that i dont know where to start after even reading so much on different plant forums...i just need some guidance....that's all......by the way i have a 5.5 and a 10 gallon planted tanks...and running a 2L bottle of DIY CO2 in each...and each are running under 3-4 wpg...


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## kretinus

As Barr says, let your plants be your test guide.

A good start based on my dosing for a 55 would be:

Monday, Wednesday, Friday:

CSM + B Solution (2 Tbsp mixed in 250ml water) 2 tsp

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday:

KNO3 - 1/2 tsp
KH2PO4 - 1/4 tsp
K2SO4 - 1/4 tsp

I mix these with a bit of water and dose


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## Edward

Hi dimsum_424
We shouldn’t believe everything we read on the internet. The issue about the expensive test kits being the only way to go is a part of scaring tactics. Most aquatic hobbyists use a variety of cheap test kits available in any local fish store. Personally I use Hagen Nutrafin for NO3, PO4, Ca, KH, and GH. They are reliable and I never had a bad one. 
You may start reading posts and articles on this forum as we specialize in advanced fertilizing systems and aquascaping techniques.

Thank you
Edward


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## kretinus

Most people who insist that you need the expensive test kits feel it's neccessary because they are obsessed with accuracy. That's OK if that's what it takes for them to enjoy their hobby. Exactness isn't really a component of EI. With EI your looking for a range, not exact levels, testing at front will simply give you an idea of how much to dose to keep your nutirents in the correct range. I don't test myself, my tap water is rather devoid of anything so I'm not very worried, the dosing I use is based on recommendations from others with similar water and set ups, and the proof is in the pudding, my plants are doing great, algae is not a problem, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

I agree with Edward when it comes to believing everything you read on the internet, therefore you should look at the most authoritative source you can find for the subject your researching, in this case, www.thebarrreport.com.


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## plantbrain

Dimsum-

Simple as chosing a shrimp dumpling(hummm !):

for the 10 gal:

Add:

*2x a week:*
1/8 teaspoon of KNO3
About 1/2-1/4 rice grain's worth of KH2PO4
Trace elements(Flourish, Tropica master Grow etc) add 2 mls

Add about 1/2 this amount for the 5 gal.

Change the DIY weekly/10 days or so, give it a day before you swap brew bottles, as the CO2 production is rather high the first few hours.

Weekly water changes: 50%. 
Make sure your GH and KH are 3 degrees or higher from the tap water. Let me/us know if it is not.

That's it.
No horror, nothing scary, very simple and highly effective.

CO2 rather than the nutrients will be the biggest issues for you.
Plants are 40-45% carbon. 90% of all algae issues are CO2 related.

So look there(CO2) first always.
A narrow range RedSeapH test kit and a KH test kit and Gh kit is all you'll need. cost about 10-12$

See my site for a small simple cheap DIY CO2 reactor designed for DIY in mind. Cost about 2$.

Tank mainteance should take about 30 minutes a week with this routine.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## plantbrain

kretinus said:


> Most people who insist that you need the expensive test kits feel it's neccessary because they are obsessed with accuracy.


I suggest using the top of the line test kits if you want to do that, since that is an enjoyment in and of itself for a few folks. But most folks are unwilling to test regularly, nor want to test as a hobby, nor are willing to shell out the $ for it or calibrate cheap kits.

Most don't want to be bothered.
That's why I suggest things that I do.
It's based on people's habits.

I have 3000$ worth of testing equipment at home. 
I use it to answer specific questions/research, not to monitor on going aquascapes or customer's tanks etc.

I already know how to grow plants without test kits, most folks enjoy the plants, not the testing.

So I shared that.

I can always go back and check or see how the method did with the $$ test kits, but I don't need to do this after having already done it for many years.

It's good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## cgcaver

Dimsum... I was exactly like you after reading the EI article LOL I was fascinated with the theory presented by Tom, and it makes perfect sense to me. However, I was sitting there, with all my PMDD powders, thinking "Awesome idea... where do I start?" 

Im not a total newb at this stuff, and I still like to have it laid out before me like "Step 1, add X spoons of powder to X mL of water, then dose X mL every X day" LOL I understand the theories out there perfectly well, but I like it spelled out in english hehe. I think the main reason is I dont want to crash my tank or fight an algae war.

Just wanted you to know that you arent the only person who read that was like "OK cool, What do I do now?" I would be a big fan of an official "EI for dummies" page 





P.S. Tom, care to "hold my hand" like you did w/ Dimsum's 10g up above?  I have a 55g (about 45g of water volume), and Im really curious as to how to figure out how much to dose (and when throughout the week) for my tank. I know how to use the Fertilator and stuff to calculate dosing to a target level, but I really don't understand how to dose throughout the week when using the EI method.


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## dimsum_424

wow...thanks for all the needed info about fertilizing...you guys are great...but i have a few more questions....when dosing the ferts...does it matter how much i dilute the ferts with water before putting it into my tanks...or should i place them in dry?.............and also...with the dosing...when is it the optimal time to dose?...before turning on the lights, when the lights are on, or after the lights have been turned off?...is there a difference?...just curious...thanks...


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## plantbrain

cgcav said:


> P.S. Tom, care to "hold my hand" like you did w/ Dimsum's 10g up above?  I have a 55g (about 45g of water volume), and Im really curious as to how to figure out how much to dose (and when throughout the week) for my tank. I know how to use the Fertilator and stuff to calculate dosing to a target level, but I really don't understand how to dose throughout the week when using the EI method.


Do you have CO2?
GH and Kh of the tap water?
Light?

That's about all Ineed to know to get you started.
Later, you can tweak easily as habits dictate.

Regards,
Tom Barr


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## magicmagni

dimsum_424 said:


> wow...thanks for all the needed info about fertilizing...you guys are great...but i have a few more questions....when dosing the ferts...does it matter how much i dilute the ferts with water before putting it into my tanks...or should i place them in dry?.............and also...with the dosing...when is it the optimal time to dose?...before turning on the lights, when the lights are on, or after the lights have been turned off?...is there a difference?...just curious...thanks...


You are making it too hard. It doesn't matter and is mainly your preference. As long as you are doing it somewhat consistantly is all the matters. For what it's worth I like to dose dry on my large tank and really don't pay attention to the time, just do it when it is convienent for me on my "dosing day."


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## frozenoak

ahh. It is such a relief to see that I am not the only one having trouble with this ppm problem solving. If I am not intruding do you think I could get the help that is being asked for here?

Is this the information about my tap water I need to figure out my dosing needs?

Parameter-	Sampling Date-	Average Amount-	Range of Detections

Alkalinity (ppm)	2003 149 73 - 196 
Bicarbonate (ppm) 2003 191 167 - 239 
Calcium (ppm) 2003	57 22.5 – 139 
Hardness (ppm) 2003 187	64.3 – 455 
Magnesium (ppm) 2003 10.7 2 – 26.10 
pH (Units) 2003 7.95 7.50 – 8.25 
Potassium (ppm) 2003 2.7 1.7 – 4.4 
Sodium (ppm) 2003 46.3 35.6 - 87 
Radon (pCi/L) 2003 388 ND - 615 
Uranium 2003 3.75 ND – 7.99 
Arsenic (ppb)	2003 ND ND - 3 
Fluoride (ppm)	2003 0.35 ND – 0.46 
Nitrate as NO3 (ppm)	2003 ND ND – 6.30 
Nitrate + Nitrite (ppm)	2003 ND ND – 1.4 
Total Trihalo- 2003 24 ND - 62 
Haloacetic Acids 2003 9 ND - 27 
Total Chlorine	2003 1.3 <0.1 – 3.5 
Chloride (ppm) 2003 48 13 - 123 
Electrical Conductivity 2003 559 361 - 890 
Foaming Agents 2003 6 ND - 40 
Manganese (ppb) 2003 ND ND - 26 
Sulfate (ppm) 2003 60 29.6 - 177 
Total Dissolved Solids	2003 332 214 - 528 
Boron (ppb) 2003 ND ND - 160 
Vanadium (ppb) 2003	ND ND – 6.8 

This information comes with a disclaimer that anything not mentioned is not regulated and was below detection levels

Sorry it's all ran together I'm not sure how to fix it to look like the table

Can someone help me break this down? I will be dosing a 60 gallon tank with 50% water change every 7 days. I am running 4X65w lights and pressurized CO2. I plan on making the CO2 automatic with a pH Controller soon.


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## magicmagni

frozenoak said:


> ahh. It is such a relief to see that I am not the only one having trouble with this ppm problem solving. If I am not intruding do you think I could get the help that is being asked for here?
> 
> Is this the information about my tap water I need to figure out my dosing needs?
> 
> Parameter- Sampling Date- Average Amount- Range of Detections
> 
> Alkalinity (ppm) 2003 149 73 - 196
> Bicarbonate (ppm) 2003 191 167 - 239
> Calcium (ppm) 2003 57 22.5 - 139
> Hardness (ppm) 2003 187 64.3 - 455
> Magnesium (ppm) 2003 10.7 2 - 26.10
> pH (Units) 2003 7.95 7.50 - 8.25
> Potassium (ppm) 2003 2.7 1.7 - 4.4
> Sodium (ppm) 2003 46.3 35.6 - 87
> Radon (pCi/L) 2003 388 ND - 615
> Uranium 2003 3.75 ND - 7.99
> Arsenic (ppb) 2003 ND ND - 3
> Fluoride (ppm) 2003 0.35 ND - 0.46
> Nitrate as NO3 (ppm) 2003 ND ND - 6.30
> Nitrate + Nitrite (ppm) 2003 ND ND - 1.4
> Total Trihalo- 2003 24 ND - 62
> Haloacetic Acids 2003 9 ND - 27
> Total Chlorine 2003 1.3 <0.1 - 3.5
> Chloride (ppm) 2003 48 13 - 123
> Electrical Conductivity 2003 559 361 - 890
> Foaming Agents 2003 6 ND - 40
> Manganese (ppb) 2003 ND ND - 26
> Sulfate (ppm) 2003 60 29.6 - 177
> Total Dissolved Solids 2003 332 214 - 528
> Boron (ppb) 2003 ND ND - 160
> Vanadium (ppb) 2003 ND ND - 6.8
> 
> This information comes with a disclaimer that anything not mentioned is not regulated and was below detection levels
> 
> Sorry it's all ran together I'm not sure how to fix it to look like the table
> 
> Can someone help me break this down? I will be dosing a 60 gallon tank with 50% water change every 7 days. I am running 4X65w lights and pressurized CO2. I plan on making the CO2 automatic with a pH Controller soon.


I wouldn't recomend the controller. It's not needed and can be more trouble than it's worth. Just calibrate a bubble rate to get around 30 to 40ppm C02. Put it on a timer so that it shuts off when the lights go out.

Have you seen this before 
http://rexgrigg.com/
or this?
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1


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## Praxx42

Foaming agent? WTH is that?


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## titan97

Foaming agent(s) are usually proteins or other organic matter that modifies the surface tension of the water. Think of egg whites. Put a small amount of the egg white in a cup of water and shake it up. Lots of bubbles/foam.

-Dustin


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## frozenoak

magicmagni said:


> Have you seen this before
> http://rexgrigg.com/
> or this?
> http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1


yes, to both. I am getting lost when I try to do the math on PPM vs tsp/ml.
I made the fruit cake. I have always wondered how to make one of those.


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## Praxx42

titan97 said:


> Foaming agent(s) are usually proteins or other organic matter that modifies the surface tension of the water. Think of egg whites. Put a small amount of the egg white in a cup of water and shake it up. Lots of bubbles/foam.


Too bad someone hasn't figured out how to make a stable foaming agent for "normal" (read that as: non-planted) fish-only FW tanks. They'd make a mint on a FW protein skimmer additive.


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## plantbrain

ppm = mg/liters.

So say 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 on average weighs 1.67 grams.
Adding this to a known volume of water will = mg/l.

ppm's are the same as mg/l.
The dosing calculators here on the sitre or 
Chuck Gadd's site will make the math easy for you.

You can also simply ask me what you want to maintain or just a basic starter amount.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## frozenoak

Tom or anyone else, with the info in post #17 of this thread can you simply tell me what i want to maintain or just a basic starter amount.


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## magicmagni

frozenoak said:


> Tom or anyone else, with the info in post #17 of this thread can you simply tell me what i want to maintain or just a basic starter amount. ....Can someone help me break this down? I will be dosing a 60 gallon tank with 50% water change every 7 days. I am running 4X65w lights"


Day 1: Change water 50% refill. Add the following

Potassium Nitrate: 1/2 tsp (+10ppm nitrate/+6.89ppm potassium)
Fleet Enema (Liquid Phosphate source): 1.5ml (+2ppm)
Maybe some SC Equilibrium (follow instructions on bottle) if your GH is under 5 degrees hardness. Add some Bicarbonate AKA Arm and hammer if KH is under 3

Day 2: Dose micros. I'd say about 2-5 caps Flourish Iron and Flourish. As with many ferts you'll need to look at the plants to tell. Start on the low side and add more it you think you need to.

Day 3: Dose 1/8 tsp Nitrate. Dose .5ml Fleet Enema.

Day 4: Dose micros. I'd say about 2-5 caps Flourish Iron and Flourish. As with many ferts you'll need to look at the plants to tell. Start on the low side and add more it you think you need to.

Day 5: Dose 1/8 tsp Nitrate. Dose .5ml Fleet Enema

Day 6: Dose micros. I'd say about 2-5 caps Flourish Iron and Flourish. As with many ferts you'll need to look at the plants to tell. Start on the low side and add more it you think you need to.

Day 7: Dose 1/8 tsp Nitrate. Dose .5ml Fleet Enema

Note that all ferts are dumped dry into the tank- except for the fleet which is a liquid. I assumed 45 gallons of water in the 60 gallon. Your mileage may vary depending on your plant biomass. I like to test the water before I change it day 1 for Nitrate levels and phosphate level to see if anything bottomed out or accumulated too much from the week before. This will help you Tailor the dosages better to the uptake. Perhaps skip a day of macro dosing if you see very high levels or add a little less each time, but generally the problem is when something bottoms out not when it is in excess.

Crank your CO2 up. 30pmm to 40ppm is what you want, more if your fish don't show stress (breathing for air at the top)


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## RobD

plantbrain said:


> Do you have CO2?
> GH and Kh of the tap water?
> Light?
> 
> That's about all Ineed to know to get you started.
> Later, you can tweak easily as habits dictate.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom -

You made a nice post for dosing in 10gal increments for CO2 people earlier in this thread. How about an EI dosing recommendation for us non-CO2 people? You have a nice article at your site about it, and I decided I'd like to stay low-tech because of it.

My specifics:
CO2: No
KH is 5*dKH, GH is 9*dGH
Light is 1.7wpg
Tank size: 90 gallons


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## plantbrain

I do not need to know much for non CO2.

It's not EI either.

For the 90 gal.
No water changes, none, for months at a time.
Top off with tap.

It does depend on plant density.

It still needs fully planted etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RobD

plantbrain said:


> I do not need to know much for non CO2.


Ah, but I do! 



plantbrain said:


> It's not EI either.
> 
> For the 90 gal.
> No water changes, none, for months at a time.
> Top off with tap.


Okay, so it appears to be even easier than I thought. I've been doing 30% water changes weekly. So it seems I need to cut those out. My cats will be saddened, they enjoy watching the water in the Python.



plantbrain said:


> It does depend on plant density.
> 
> It still needs fully planted etc.


Currently 13 apons, 13 red ludwigia stems, 2 amazon swords, and tomorrow 4 bunches of anachris that I picked up today to be nutrient suckers. I'm working towards getting it fully planted (I admit I goofed in that it should be full plant density from day 1).

Any idea what should be dosed, and about how much to start with? I know every tank ends up different due to various variables, but I thought you might have an idea where to at least aim the arrow.

In your article, it seemed that you thought Seachem products were better than going GW dry mix - reason being simplicity, economical, little need for pounds of ferts sitting around, or something else? I could see a 20g not needing a lot over the course of several months, but 4-5 times that amount for a 90g had me wondering if I should go dry ferts.



plantbrain said:


> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks!
Robert

P.S. - Is there much talk about low-tech tanks in the forums at your website? I've considered joining, but wondered if it was all CO2-based discussions which might not pertain to my tanks.


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## magicmagni

There is a low tech tank discussion herehttp://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/4686048124


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## RobD

magicmagni - I went and checked out that forum for about 20 minutes. Seems they want to put dirt in the tank to really be "low-tech". I think what I'm trying to acheive is a "low-light" tank: under 2wpg and no CO2 and dose ferts.


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## magicmagni

Yeah they are more slanted toward the Diana Walstad method, but it is low tech. I think that you can substitute the dirt for peat and mulm though. You may want to re-read Tom's article and then go for it. I've never tried Toms low tech method so I can't comment further on the subject; however, I'd totally recommend you join in on Tom's website if not only for the monthly articles he posts. BTW if you join you will see some of the Q and A from the article as well as other posts on the subject. You can join here: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/index.php?referrerid=669


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## plantbrain

A routine for a fully!!! planted 90 gal, moderate fish load, add some herbviors!!!, no water changes!!!

Dose 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of SeaChem Equilibrium once a week.
Add KNO3: 1/4 teaspoon weekly
Add KH2PO4: 1/16th teaspoon weekly
Add Traces: 10 mls weekly

This should relieve any nutrient stress at this growth rate, while still keeoping things on the lower slightly limited side. Fish food/feedings/waste will make up the difference.

Fish food, lacks K+, enough PO4 and traces to grow all plants well, that is why some plant wane as DW put's it.
She speculates it is allelopathy and other things for the cause, it's not.

It's a lack of nutrients, some plants are better able to get these nutrients thus grow better, while other die out *if the nutrients are strongly limited*.

So adding a little bit of nutrients takes care of that allows us to grow more species and better helthier species.

Soil works for awhile, but after a few months, you need to switch to water column dosing, you also cannot redo the scape or hack and prune agressively without a mess.

That's more my beef with it. You can add less soil also, then switch or start dosing the water column right away also.

All you have to do is test to see what is limiting in the non CO2 tanks, something appranently not done much on low tech forum group members.

I'm not suggesting using testing as m,ethod really, just answer some uptake rate questions and see what is missing when some certain species of plants wane, then add those same limited nutrients and see what the response is.

By not using soil, I get a much clearer isolated picture of what nutrients are being used.

Since the growth rate is about 5-10X slower, the dosing is very easy, weekly works well, no water changes etc.

It's not going to get easier than this but if you want to use soil and not dose anything for the first few months, that can be done also.

Weekly dosing is very easy, takes 1 minute.
Unlike relying solely on fish food/waste for the nutrients, the plants do look better and more species can be kept using this modified version of a non CO2 approach.

So you can go a bit more tech if you want with this and remove all the soil.
You can scape and redon the set up easily also using onyx sand etc.

Regarding the BarrReport, I address non CO2 issues and am supportive of the methods. About 2/3 of my tanks are non CO2 planted tanks.

None are soil based tanks. 
There is no reason why a plant cannot grow in a non CO2 tank, it'll just grow slower, which is not a bad thing

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RobD

Thanks for the info Tom - that's what I was looking for. I don't want to have soil in my tank, as I like the looks and behavior of the pool filter sand. I will probably have to lower the KH2PO4 dosing, since I have a heavier bioload (6 keyholes, 5 rainbows, 7 rasboras, 7 cories, 4 zebras, 11 otos, 9 neons). My nitrate is consistently at 5ppm right now without water changes, though most of my plants are BGA-infested (blackout starts tonight when I can do a 50%WC and clean).

I have KNO3 and Flourish on-hand, and I'll get everything else ordered. I wasn't sure if I was going to need the K2SO4 or not, sounds like a not.

Sounds like I'll have to become a member at your site then! Look for me there soon with questions - I'm attempting to get my bga, brown, red hair, and green thread under control. Tank looks like crap right now.


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## plantbrain

TDS meter measures all TDS, not individual ones like PPS(at least the TDS parameters that PPS does measure, and they are the main important ones, Ca, Mg, NO3, PO4, K+.....but not SO4 (few folks measure this).....nor is testing Fe and the other traces of much significance in terms of TDS.
While TDS may have some application here, I'd not get into this too much.

Stick with one thing for now.
If you do EI and you also want to try it and not do water changes for longer peroids of time, or reduce %, then this is useful.

It might have some application here with PPS as a very general test if you plan on skipping the normal test for the week etc.

You can measure before and after dosing to get an idea of how much TDS is added per dose of "X" nutrient. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RobD

plantbrain said:


> A routine for a fully!!! planted 90 gal, moderate fish load, add some herbviors!!!, no water changes!!!
> 
> Dose 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of SeaChem Equilibrium once a week.
> Add KNO3: 1/4 teaspoon weekly
> Add KH2PO4: 1/16th teaspoon weekly
> Add Traces: 10 mls weekly
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom -

Okay, I've done my blackout for 4 days and dosed 1 teaspoon of KNO3 before and after (1/4 per 20g). Did a good gravel cleaning with the python and 50% water changes before and after. I also received my ferts from Greg Watson - CSM+B, KH2PO4, K2SO4, and KNO3. The Excel will be here in a few days. Can you re-recommend a dry-dosing for my tank based on what I have now, please with sugar on top?

In re-reading your dosage recommendation, you state that I should do no water changes. Using the EI method, isn't a water change considered an important step to resetting the levels? The TDS method that you mentioned later is interesting, but I'll wait and let you experts here try it out first.

Then you mentioned I should "add some herbviors!!!". I have 9 otos and 2 lazy (cough) large otos in the tank. I assume you want me to get ~3 true SAEs for the red brush? Plecos as an and/or? My LPS actually has bristlenose, which I've read are also good for eating green algae. But now I'm stocking a lot of fish to eat the symptoms - I thought getting the tank in sync was going to help fix the algae problems. Then I'll have a tank full of hungry herbivores, no? Or are these low-light tanks always going to have algae issues?


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## plantbrain

No, I'm suggesting a method for your tank specifially which is non CO2, not EI.

Non CO2 methods do not use water changes, they use balance and less dosign since there is an associated slower growth rate that you can respond to without the need for dosing higher amounts.

If you use the Excwel, well then you can go to EI, but at 1/2 amounts for the rec's, as the growth rate will be about 1/2 to 1/3 that of a CO2 enriched tank.

This will do quite well for this tank actually and provide fast results.
Better reflectors also will help a low light tank get more out of the light you have.

A&H Supply make the best in the business IME, IMO.
Worth every penny.

also, if you skip the excel or slack, the poorer results are slow and you can go the non CO2 route once things have grown in and save yourself easily if the tank does not perform well and ask me about the non CO2 methiod more before things get out of hand.

Less light means slower problem development and more response time to do something.

The same is true for CO2 gas plant tanks also, but everyone seems to think more light is better.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## flagerr

i really want to boost plant growth with these EI thing, i just want to make sure even if i'm growing slow growing plants like jave fern and moss,won't it turn out to be algae problem?

soon after the moss grow into something i want, i'll stop the EI dosing and go with the non CO2 dosing, will it be a problem?

if there's alot of light and nutrient in the water column, but no CO2, will algae use up the nutrient to grow out of the plant? 

how much should i dose for 5 gal,(no Co2), no fish, 15 watt CF?

thx alot,
flagerr


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## flagerr

can i have an answer? could anyone help me?


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## plantbrain

Once a week dosing for non CO2, a smidge of KNO3. about 4x less of the KH2PO4, a smidge of the SeaChem EQ.
A smidge ain't much.

Add a fair amount of Cherry shrimp or Amano shrimp, maybe 5 or so.
Then the fish or choice.
Keep the tank moderate to low stocking.
Feed regularly.

No water changes, only top off for evaporation.

You need to decide which method(CO2 excel, or non CO2) you want first before going on.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## flagerr

thx for replying
btw what exactly smidge is?

i'm using fleet enema, how much should i dose for 5 gal?

thx for replying


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## plantbrain

There is an actual volume of a smidge.
But I use a rice grain for sizes, about 1 rice grain would be a smidgeon to me.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## shalu

My WalMart "smidge" measuring spoon measures about 1/24 teaspoon.


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## plantbrain

Smidges make me itch

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## urville

WOW!
omg mr. tom barr just trying to imagine the vast library of info you seem to just pull on at a moments notice.. it make smy brain hurt.i guess so as not to be flogging the poor horse is there a place where there might be some informative articles on this non co2 method. and dosaging etc with or without flourish excel which i do use.
see i get the idea, but it's turning the amounts over for my paticular tank, and the fertilator is cool but only gives me what i'm putting in it doesnt calculate what i have in terms of size and then reccomend amounts.
and the no water changes.. whoa... thats a shocker for me... 
i looked at joining your site and i'm sorry i just cant i have diy'd and scraped my way to where i am and i just cant ante up for the monthly thing.
this is like the peat ph kh gh issues i'm having its impossible to use the search engines to pinpoint already answered questions as everyone uses different phrases to discuss them and the amount of info is just overwhelming to me...
at times the internet is hard on me as i have dialup and theres seems to be almost too much info, or at least alot of repeat and some unaswered's and who to trust... and...
either way thanks for any time you give
if your ever in wyo i'll buy you lunch


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## plantbrain

FYI,
It's not monthly, that's yearly.
If you are an AGA or bonafide local plant club member, 30% off that.

If you specify your tank more, I can tell you waht to do to achieve your goal.
It will not be 100%, but I can folks that try pretty close with somew tweaking but non CO2 needs little.

If you use Excel you can do the EI, if you go 100% no Carbon/CO2 enrichment, then it's not EI, no water changes are done.............

You just add small amounts of (inorganic) nutrients to relieve strong limitations, generally Ca/Mg/K+ but low fish loading: PO4/NO3 and traces.

Still, you are not adding much and generally the once weekly routine works well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## urville

tom:
OMG! lol i'm an idiot. hahaha
i thought... well i assumed it was monthly.. hahaha sorry

i added diy yeast co2 and immediatley had some probs but...
i'm working on that

i made this post just to keep it out where its not bloating this topic up now that its sticky, i read this topic over and over and i THINK i understand better...
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=8941
ian


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## plantbrain

Well, you have alot of light without CO2, get a DIY CO2 internal reactor(see my site for venmturi design DIY CO2 reactor for 2-3 $).

Make it and use that with DIY yeast changed out every 7-10 days, or use 2 1 liter bottles and change each one staggered every week.

Regards,
Tom Barr


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