# [Wet Thumb Forum]-The setup of a 180G tank, Step by step PICS, let your input affect my finished tank!



## whiskey

This is a setup thread, I am building a 180 gallon planted freshwater tank, as I work on the various components required to run the tank I will post step by step pictures. I welcome, and encourage your advice and suggestions, and they will be taken into account as I proceed. The tank is 180 gallons; it measures 6 foot, by 2 foot by 2 foot.

Please forgive the cryptic typing in this first post, I worked an eight-hour day and spent ten more hours working on my stand, it is now 5:00 AM and I am very tired.

I need advice on LIGHTING, I have 4 spare 55W PC bulbs, with possible 2 more if I salvage, I also have 4*40W NO bulbs. Can I use some combination of these, and what combo would YOU suggest?

Filtration is also up in the air, I have an ehime rated for 66 gallons, I also have a Magnum 350 and a Fluval 204. This tank has 8 holes drilled in the bottom and I want to have the intake and output be in the bottom of the tank through the bulkheads, PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS A BAD IDEA AND WHY!!!! I will install ball valves on the bulkheads to shut off the opening when repairing the hosing.

I am lucky enough to have a good friend donate his garage to this project (I live in a 700 SQ foot apt) so I have access to a table saw and I LOVE it, I have never made a stand with anything but a skill saw and this is much easer.

Here are some pics of the progress so far,&#8230;

The cut 2X4's (you can see the plywood in the background)









The frame (top and bottom are identical)









The two frames (top and bottom)









The frames installed and it is starting to look like a stand,


















There is still SO MUCH work to do, but it is a start. The one thing you can't see from this is the pure scale of this thing, I am super excited,&#8230;

Thanks for reading, I welcome your comments.
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

PS, based on advice from this fourm, I plan to jam all the lights I have in this hood. 

Your thoughts?
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

Looks great! Are you going to make it into a cabinet with doors etc. or leave it as it is? 

It reminds me of the stand my father and I designed and built for my 132 gallon tank. We put planks of wood across the whole bottom of the stand under the frame so that the weight would be distributed more evenly over the aged floor in the house. 

From Alex.


----------



## DataGuru

Nice.









So will it be getting any sunlight?


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Looks great! Are you going to make it into a cabinet with doors etc. or leave it as it is?
> 
> From Alex.


I plan to make it into a cabnet, it is stronger with the back, front, and sides glued and screwed. There will be doors, more pics soon to follow.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So will it be getting any sunlight?


No it will not be getting sunlight, in my neghbor hood you do NOT want to leave your windows open.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I just got a fluval 404, do you think that and a magnum 350 would be enough filtration for a 180 gallon tank? Do you think I could hook them up to the holes in the bottom of the tank? Or do you think that would blow the filter's top off from the pressure?

Ok, I worked 12 hours today in 100+ DEG heat and got some things done on my stand, I am sooooo sore, and tired. I am not as far as I had hoped, I wanted to get the bottom in and the trim on today but sadly that was impossible, I was about to keel over. Even though I did not get as much done as I had hoped I did make some good progress, and here are the pics of that.

Top on, screwed and glued









Sides on test fitting, no glue yet









Back on test fitting, no glue yet









All four sides on, no glue test fit









A door I cut out in the side, this will be used as a way to slide a large sump in if I ever set this up tank up salt. For now I will mount a panel in it that houses my CO2 reactor, CO2 needle valve, and external heater. I cut inside of the side pane for this, so the door is the inside piece of wood, this makes it look better because the grain flows straight through. This door closes flush as the rest will, for a cleaner look, all the doors will also be made in a similar fashion.










Front doors cut out, but I did not have the energy to hang them,&#8230;










That is all for now, I welcome your comments.
Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Wow, this is really COOL watching the construction of the stand!

Are the holes in the tank in the BOTTOM of the glass? or near the bottom? I'm not clear on that (and do not have experience with tanks with holes in them). 

Is the lip around the top edge for aesthetics or does it help in a structural way? If you were to move the tank into or out of the lip edge, would you have to lift it by a top lip? 

Generally with natural style aquariums, there is less filtration needed, as the plants are natural filters themselves. Is there access from the BACK of the cabinet, for tubing coming down in the back to the underneath? I ask this because I recently bought a used, homemade cabinet, and there was no back panel, just sides and front, with 3 doors like yours. Also, the rim around the top was on the front and sides only, leading me to wonder if its just for looks. 

The construction of this looks really nice! 6 feet long, eh? I'm drooling, LOL!

-Jane


----------



## whiskey

> Are the holes in the tank in the BOTTOM of the glass? or near the bottom? I'm not clear on that (and do not have experience with tanks with holes in them).


The holes are in the bottom of the tank, normally they would be used for a closed loop, but this is not going to be a reef tank so I am trying to find something else to do with them.



> Is the lip around the top edge for aesthetics or does it help in a structural way? If you were to move the tank into or out of the lip edge, would you have to lift it by a top lip?


The top lip around the edge is to hide the trim around the tank, so yes it is for aesthetics. If I were to take the tank out, it would have to be lifted over the lip. I continue the lip around the back because I feel it is a cleaner look.



> Generally with natural style aquariums, there is less filtration needed, as the plants are natural filters themselves. Is there access from the BACK of the cabinet, for tubing coming down in the back to the underneath? I ask this because I recently bought a used, homemade cabinet, and there was no back panel, just sides and front, with 3 doors like yours. Also, the rim around the top was on the front and sides only, leading me to wonder if its just for looks.


On my stand the back panel is not just for looks, it is screwed and glued on and helps to support the stand, I like to over build things. Since the filters will connect from the bottom of the tank I will not need acess from the back, the tank will sit up agenst a wall. I will drill holes in the back panel for cords and things as needed.



> The construction of this looks really nice! 6 feet long, eh? I'm drooling, LOL!
> 
> -Jane


Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have made some more progress, no real attempt has been made to sand yet so you get to see all of my errors,&#8230;

Here the doors are mounted and the trim is on.









Here is a pic with the doors open.









Here is a pic to get an idea of scale, keep in mind I am about 6 foot, 230LBS.









I have a lot of sanding to do, and I plan to stain and lacquer this to keep the wood dry even when I spill water. I intend to use a rather dark stain to match my SW stand that I made in a similar fashion and I will be using a satin finish because I don't like that super glossy look.

Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## imported_russell

whiskey, you should just add a couple of pillows and you could have the world's most sturdy bed.









and man, that is some BEAUTIFUL wood. i love the way the grain runs.


----------



## TWood

Suggestion: Consider running a 1/4" or 3/8" roundover over all the edges using a router. Plywood wood grain never looks good to me, but it's personal preference. If I were finishing it, I'd go with a dark exterior grade eggshell paint. I used a roller to paint mine, and after a few coats it creates a light orangepeel effect. Hides many defects too.

TW


----------



## Jane of Upton

Thanks for all the answers to my questions, Whisky!

I really like how the woodgrain continues and matches across all three cabinet doors!

Its really coming together! Yes, it sure looks sturdy. Overbuilding is usually a good thing, and I would imagine a bit of overbuilding is especially good with an aquarium. I recently read that with water, rocks and gravel, the weight averages 15 pounds per gallon. 

My used stand is overbuilt to the point of being a serious problem to move. Yours looks just right- solid, sturdy, attractive and well designed. I love the door on the side panel! Excellent!

-Jane


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by TWood:
> Suggestion: Consider running a 1/4" or 3/8" roundover over all the edges using a router.
> TW


I don't have a hand held router, but I plan on making a "cap peice" for the top around the top to hide the plywood edge peice. I also plan to use a corner peice on all the corners to hide that part of the ends of the ply. I need to go to HD when I have the money and figure out just exactally what I need.

I will be using a dark stain on this stand, I like the grain and it matches the rest of my apartment (all my other stands are like this).

Thanks for the ideas,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Thanks for all the answers to my questions, Whisky!
> 
> I really like how the woodgrain continues and matches across all three cabinet doors!
> 
> Its really coming together! Yes, it sure looks sturdy. Overbuilding is usually a good thing, and I would imagine a bit of overbuilding is especially good with an aquarium. I recently read that with water, rocks and gravel, the weight averages 15 pounds per gallon.
> 
> My used stand is overbuilt to the point of being a serious problem to move. Yours looks just right- solid, sturdy, attractive and well designed. I love the door on the side panel! Excellent!
> 
> -Jane


Thanks, I am not worried about the stand being a pain to move because no matter how much I over build it I don't think it will match the weight of the tank, about 400LBS empty. It took 4 big guys straining to carry this thing into my apt.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by russell:
> whiskey, you should just add a couple of pillows and you could have the world's most sturdy bed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [quote/]
> 
> The sad part is I thought about it,... I almost fell asleep on it that night.
> 
> Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have hit a MAJOR setback. I had a friend help me turn the tank on it’s front so I could clean out the overflow box (tank was used) and I noticed that this tank does not have the normal trim around the bottom. The whole bottom of this tank is flat, flush. Every other tank I have ever dealt with had the glass bottom of the tank lifted about ¼ inch up by a plastic trim piece that sat on top of the stand. I don’t know how to deal with a tank like this, I don’t even know if my stand design is right now.

I was told that with a tank like this the stand top has to be PERFECT, not a single blemish, I did countersink my screws so the screw sits down in a hole a little, Is this a problem? I am not even sure the whole top is perfectly level (plywood doesn’t come perfectly straight), I never checked I was just worried about where the trim would be sitting. I am VERY worried at this point. I will get measurements as soon as I can and let you know how bad off I am.

If you have ever dealt with a tank like this, please feel free to add any advice you may have!!! I might add that the bottom pane of glass is ½ inch, I should think that would be pretty strong!

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Canlador

Well, you could do that, or you could use PU foam or something like it to help distribute the weight or absorb the indentations caused by any small bumps in the wood. It would not have to be thick I don't think.


----------



## whiskey

I forgot to post this picture, this one shows the stain color I will use, I have stained the front and inside but nothing else. This pic is a little dark because I took it at night, the color will be a little lighter than what you see.

I have yet to resolve the stand top problem, I have not had a chance to see how far off I am yet. My friend suggested the foam too, I think that is something I will definitely do, as insurance if nothing else.










Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## dwalstad

You've done a nice job on a very ambitious project.

I think that each gal weighs about 8 lb, so you've got 1,440 lb (just for the water !) pushing down on this glass. You might need something sturdier than foam to take that amount of weight. The foam may compress so much that it won't provide much cushioning between the glass and imperfections in the wood.

For cushioning my tanks, I used 5/8 inch thick particle board to fit under the entire tank. To make it more attractive, I covered the board with Contact paper that had a wood grain design. Just to make it smoother, I added a layer of cardboard on top of the particle board.

My 45 and 50 gal tanks have been set up this way since 1987 without leaks or cracks.

You could put a thin layer of foam (or similar material) on top of the particle board.

I would visit your hardware store to get some ideas.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> You've done a nice job on a very ambitious project.


Thank-you, this kind of project is why I started the savings account







.



> I think that each gal weighs about 8 lb, so you've got 1,440 lb (just for the water !) pushing down on this glass. You might need something sturdier than foam to take that amount of weight. The foam may compress so much that it won't provide much cushioning between the glass and imperfections in the wood.


The whole top of the stand is covered in 1/2 inch ply, that is 1/8 thinner than 5/8's, do you think I need to make the upgrade?



> For cushioning my tanks, I used 5/8 inch thick particle board to fit under the entire tank. To make it more attractive, I covered the board with Contact paper that had a wood grain design. Just to make it smoother, I added a layer of cardboard on top of the particle board.


I will do this if you feel it is required.



> My 45 and 50 gal tanks have been set up this way since 1987 without leaks or cracks.
> 
> You could put a thin layer of foam (or similar material) on top of the particle board
> 
> I would visit your hardware store to get some ideas.


I will look into it. I have yet to run into anybody that has a tank like mine! Are you saying that your tanks have a flush glass bottom???

Thanks for your time,
Whiskey


----------



## imported_Gardentoad

I am presently setting up a 210 gallon tank. I had several years ago a 200 gallon tank set up for 9 years before we moved and I had to sell it. Both tanks were flat on the bottom. We put them on foam board, the pink insulation board that they use to insulate houses. We didn't do it on 1 piece. with the first tank we got some help lifting the tank on to the metal stand and later, before filling it we jacked it up and slid the foam under it. Then after lowering it I added the piece in the middle where the jack (and a 20"X 8" board on top of the jack) was.

You're pictures show that you have an edge around your stand to lower the tank into. In that case perhaps you can just set it down on top. You can't slide it or lower only one end on the foam.
The tank I'm setting up now was left on a cart in the garage.We set it up ourselves. My husband and I had to set it in front of the stand and then jack up one end at a time placing a few boards under the ends untill we had it on blocks and boards the height of the stand. Then we slid the tank onto the stand.It is drilled on the bottom and our stand doesn't have a solid top. We then jacked it up in the middle and placed the foamboard in pieces under it, this time clearing the holes in the bottom.
I plan on having an edge around it to cover the black plastic, we're just adding it later.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Gardentoad:
> I am presently setting up a 210 gallon tank. I had several years ago a 200 gallon tank set up for 9 years before we moved and I had to sell it. Both tanks were flat on the bottom. We put them on foam board, the pink insulation board that they use to insulate houses. We didn't do it on 1 piece. with the first tank we got some help lifting the tank on to the metal stand and later, before filling it we jacked it up and slid the foam under it. Then after lowering it I added the piece in the middle where the jack (and a 20"X 8" board on top of the jack) was.
> 
> You're pictures show that you have an edge around your stand to lower the tank into. In that case perhaps you can just set it down on top. You can't slide it or lower only one end on the foam.
> The tank I'm setting up now was left on a cart in the garage.We set it up ourselves. My husband and I had to set it in front of the stand and then jack up one end at a time placing a few boards under the ends untill we had it on blocks and boards the height of the stand. Then we slid the tank onto the stand.It is drilled on the bottom and our stand doesn't have a solid top. We then jacked it up in the middle and placed the foamboard in pieces under it, this time clearing the holes in the bottom.
> I plan on having an edge around it to cover the black plastic, we're just adding it later.


Well I am honered, your first post is to my thread







.

It is good to know that these type of tanks have worked for you without problems, I think a couple of my friends just freaked me out for no good reason.

I will place the foam in first, and then put the tank ontop of it (with the help of 4 strong friends), I hope to get one large peice but if I can't I will use 2 smaller ones.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, I have more pictures for you, the staining and varnishing is DONE!!!!! I hate this part so much. Tomorrow the fun part begins, the tank goes on the stand!!

JUST TO RECAP.

Everyone thinks the magnum 350 and the Fluval 404 will be enough filtration for this tank correct???
Everyone thinks that 6*55W PC's is enough light for this tank (if I chose to go this direction) correct?
Everyone thinks it is a GOOD idea to use ½ inch foam under the tank.
I want to see a "yes" or "no", or "I don't know" from everyone viewing this thread on those 3 questions!!









Stain on









Varnish on Very dark pic, you can see my "flashlight" in the background.









Doors done









Thanks all,
Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Geez, Whisky, you're putting us all on the spot! As long as you don't circulate an affidavit to sign, LOL!

Filter - I'm not sure. El Natural Tanks require less filtration than others, as the plants are the natural filters. Someone else will have to weigh in on that particular aspect. 

I think 6 * 55 W PCs should be enough. Granted, doing the math 6*55=330, /180 gal = 1.8333 watts per gallon. OK for a natural setup. But, factor in that with six lights, I think you'll be "getting" some of the light that otherwise would be refracted away or escape the sides in a smaller tank. So, I think your "net" light will be better than the math implies. Plus, that's 1 55W PC per foot! Are you using the AH supply kits? (sorry if you've already detailed that). Their reflectors are reported to be the best. My only concern (dimensions 6 ft x 2ft x 2 ft you report) is that that is a LOT of depth to deal with. 24"! I think top notch reflectors, making sure you squeeze every bit of light down INTO the tank is going to be necessary. With good reflectors, I think it should be OK. What plants are you looking to grow? I doubt a high-light foreground plant would do great with that depth/light. But, more adaptable types (like hairgrass) could.

As to the foam - If it is in two pieces, and its that stiff house insulation material, would that possibly make a line (or crevice) of less support? Someone mentioned PU foam - Polyurethane, the squishy kind used in upholstery pads. It comes in different densities, which have different resistances to pressure - ie, some are dense, and have little "give" while others are less dense, and can be squished down to very thin. To my knowledge (which is limited in this case) the house insulation foam squishes once, but does not spring back. I've seen a stepped on piece, and the shoe imprints just stayed. Once squashed, the foam cells are brittle, and collapse. With that much weight, I'd predict that they would all squish down, and not offer much resistance back to support the tank, but I'm not positive. Perhaps you want it to squish down, like a shim. 

Whew... on an easier topic, the staining looks really nice!
-Jane


----------



## Mr Fishies

I've been watching this thread since it started. Thanks to Whiskey for sharing this...it's hard to remember to take pcitures and document steps on a project like this.

My only thought (sorry it's not an answer to your questions), is that you need to keep applying polyurethane until you can no longer see matte/flat areas where the wood grain is soft. In the shot of the 4 doors, I think I can see areas where water will soak in if spills happen. For the sides, this might not be a big deal, but I would be worried to leave the top in a similar finish.

If the wood's not shiny with finish, water will dive right in, stain or not.


----------



## imported_Gardentoad

> Once squashed, the foam cells are brittle, and collapse. With that much weight, I'd predict that they would all squish down, and not offer much resistance back to support the tank, but I'm not positive. Perhaps you want it to squish down, like a shim.


After being set up for 9 years, that did not happen to my tank..
When we took the first tank down the foam had an impression where the frame was. I don't remember exactly how deep it was but it was no more than 1/4" deep on the side of the board against the stand. That is the point, to conform to any irregularities in the stand. I would not use apholstery foam. It isn't rigid enough.If you get it wet it would mold and probably disentigrate after several years.

I bought both tanks used and in both cases the previous owner did not put anything between the tank and stand. I did it because I read that it was insurance against any stress points and good insulation.

I really like the look of your stand with the stain.The wood grain is beautiful.


----------



## Avenolpey

> Filtration is also up in the air, I have an ehime rated for 66 gallons, I also have a Magnum 350 and a Fluval 204. This tank has 8 holes drilled in the bottom and I want to have the intake and output be in the bottom of the tank through the bulkheads, PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS A BAD IDEA AND WHY!!!! I will install ball valves on the bulkheads to shut off the opening when repairing the hosing.


Regarding filtration. Have you read Diana's book? If you want to have a successful low maintenance tank, her techniques are proven. Putting lots of bio-filtration on the tank will work against the plants. The plants will take care of ammonia, nitrates and nitrates. All you really need to do is move water. Many here myself included seem to like some mechanical filtration to remove heavy particulate matter from the water, but few have any biological filtration.


----------



## imported_BSS

I agree with Fishies, nice journal you got goin' here, Whiskey. Thanks for sharing!!

Brian.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Geez, Whisky, you're putting us all on the spot! As long as you don't circulate an affidavit to sign, LOL!


Ya, sorry about that.



> Filter - I'm not sure. El Natural Tanks require less filtration than others, as the plants are the natural filters. Someone else will have to weigh in on that particular aspect.


You are right, I will not have any "bio" media in the filters. It can be removed and I can leave just the sponges in the canister.



> I think 6 * 55 W PCs should be enough. Granted, doing the math 6*55=330, /180 gal = 1.8333 watts per gallon. OK for a natural setup. But, factor in that with six lights, I think you'll be "getting" some of the light that otherwise would be refracted away or escape the sides in a smaller tank. So, I think your "net" light will be better than the math implies. Plus, that's 1 55W PC per foot! Are you using the AH supply kits? (sorry if you've already detailed that). Their reflectors are reported to be the best. My only concern (dimensions 6 ft x 2ft x 2 ft you report) is that that is a LOT of depth to deal with. 24"! I think top notch reflectors, making sure you squeeze every bit of light down INTO the tank is going to be necessary. With good reflectors, I think it should be OK. What plants are you looking to grow? I doubt a high-light foreground plant would do great with that depth/light. But, more adaptable types (like hairgrass) could.


Nice analisis of the situation, I will be using AH supply reflectors for 4 of the bulbs, the last 2 I will use them only if I can FIND them. I bought these kits at AH supply and I know I have those last 2 reflectors somewhere,...



> As to the foam - If it is in two pieces, and its that stiff house insulation material, would that possibly make a line (or crevice) of less support? Someone mentioned PU foam - Polyurethane, the squishy kind used in upholstery pads. It comes in different densities, which have different resistances to pressure - ie, some are dense, and have little "give" while others are less dense, and can be squished down to very thin. To my knowledge (which is limited in this case) the house insulation foam squishes once, but does not spring back. I've seen a stepped on piece, and the shoe imprints just stayed. Once squashed, the foam cells are brittle, and collapse. With that much weight, I'd predict that they would all squish down, and not offer much resistance back to support the tank, but I'm not positive. Perhaps you want it to squish down, like a shim.


The stuff I used, when compresed with your fingers, will immediatally bounce back to 3/4 it's original thickness, after about 5 min you can't tell where you squished it. It is rather dense foam, my friend has a 180G acrilic tank sitting on it and it only compressed about 1/2 way.



> Whew... on an easier topic, the staining looks really nice!
> -Jane


Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Fishies:
> I've been watching this thread since it started. Thanks to Whiskey for sharing this...it's hard to remember to take pcitures and document steps on a project like this.


Thank-you, I have seen these tank journals done manny times on Reef Central (dealing with SW tanks) and some have run to over 200 pages, I thought it would be a fun thing to start myself.



> My only thought (sorry it's not an answer to your questions), is that you need to keep applying polyurethane until you can no longer see matte/flat areas where the wood grain is soft. In the shot of the 4 doors, I think I can see areas where water will soak in if spills happen. For the sides, this might not be a big deal, but I would be worried to leave the top in a similar finish.


Good eye, you are right, I ran out of the polyurathane and was not able to do a second coat on the doors. You can see in the pictures I will post in a hour or so that the doors have a noticably "mat" finish, where the rest is shiney, I can take the doors off and finish them later.



> If the wood's not shiny with finish, water will dive right in, stain or not.


This is a "satin" finish, but it is still reflective on the parts that got 2 coats.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Gardentoad:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Once squashed, the foam cells are brittle, and collapse. With that much weight, I'd predict that they would all squish down, and not offer much resistance back to support the tank, but I'm not positive. Perhaps you want it to squish down, like a shim.
> 
> 
> 
> After being set up for 9 years, that did not happen to my tank..
> When we took the first tank down the foam had an impression where the frame was. I don't remember exactly how deep it was but it was no more than 1/4" deep on the side of the board against the stand. That is the point, to conform to any irregularities in the stand. I would not use apholstery foam. It isn't rigid enough.If you get it wet it would mold and probably disentigrate after several years.
> 
> I bought both tanks used and in both cases the previous owner did not put anything between the tank and stand. I did it because I read that it was insurance against any stress points and good insulation.
Click to expand...

Because of these posts I was sure to check the foam before I used it, I found that the type I used I can compress down all the way (with my fingers) and it will rebound to 3/4 of it's origanal size right away, after about 5 min you can't really tell where you smushed it. These kind of comments, and differing opinions is what these "Journal" threads are all about, keep it up.



> I really like the look of your stand with the stain.The wood grain is beautiful.


Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Avenolpey:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Filtration is also up in the air, I have an ehime rated for 66 gallons, I also have a Magnum 350 and a Fluval 204. This tank has 8 holes drilled in the bottom and I want to have the intake and output be in the bottom of the tank through the bulkheads, PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS A BAD IDEA AND WHY!!!! I will install ball valves on the bulkheads to shut off the opening when repairing the hosing.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding filtration. Have you read Diana's book? If you want to have a successful low maintenance tank, her techniques are proven. Putting lots of bio-filtration on the tank will work against the plants. The plants will take care of ammonia, nitrates and nitrates. All you really need to do is move water. Many here myself included seem to like some mechanical filtration to remove heavy particulate matter from the water, but few have any biological filtration.
Click to expand...

I now am going to be using a fluval 404 (given to me) and a magnum 350. I plan to remove all the "bio" media, and just leave the filter empty except for the sponges for removing particulates. Do you think it is still too much filtration? I know after time sponges become bio filters too but do you think I should worry about it? I can leave them compleatly empty and just use them as a big closed loop.

For extra water movement I can use a couple of powerheads, do you think that is required?

Yes I have read Diana's book, that is what got me going on the soil substrate. In my experemental tanks it out performed florite hands down. These tanks were only up a year, and it was far from a sientific test, but I feel I can draw a conclusion that satisfies me at least. 
Ferts were no longer required, nor was CO2, but I feel the plants look better/grow faster with a little CO2 (6 PPM) and low levels of water colum ferts (1/6 the dose of the HIGH tech tank). Esp Java fern, and Java Moss.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by BSS:
> I agree with Fishies, nice journal you got goin' here, Whiskey. Thanks for sharing!!
> 
> Brian.





> 46g bf, 100% Flourite, 96w+55w AHS, XP3, CO2 w/ DIY ext reactor


Did you come over from the high tech side just for me????























Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I HAVE MORE PICTURES!!!!

I am really getting somewhere now, I got the doors mounted back on, I put the corner trim on and I got the stand into my apt!! We even managed to heave the tank up to the stand and get some bulkheads installed. I think (assuming I can find the pluming parts I need) that tomorrow will be the BIG day (water test).

This thing looks huge inside my APT, I almost can't get back far enough with my camera to get the whole tank in one shot!! I can really see where I am going with this project now, I especially like the idea that I will not have any equipment visible in the tank. The heater will go in the overflow as will the intake and output for the filters. The output will be plumed around the top of the tank and spray water down from above, the pipe will only need to be ½ inch in the water.

Now it is time for the best part, water, fish and plants! This is where this thread really starts to pick up







.

Doors on, ready to install corner trim. Foam is also on.









Doors open









Doors open, different angle









TANK ON!!!!!!!!!!









Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

I'm so envious of you tank!









All my tanks have flush glass bottoms, by the way. In fact I've never seen one with a plastic trim underneath it here in Australia. I now put a sheet of polystyrene under each one, but I didn't on the first few tanks I had, and they didn't leak or crack. Most store-bought stands here just support the tank around the edges, or have a piece of thin board over the top of the stand.

From Alex.


----------



## Jane of Upton

Wow, its looking great! Its so much easier to see what you meant (about the plumbing) when we can SEE what you meant!

About the foam...... what I saw with the permanent footprint in it must have been some other kind of foam - I assumed it was insulation foam because it was in a big sheet, but it did not have any spring-back. Anyhow, it sounds like you know what you're doing with it. Sounds like a shim is what it will be. I'll have to keep that in mind myself if/when setting up an especially large tank!

Its looking great!
-Jane


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> I'm so envious of you tank!


Thanks, You have no idea how huge this thing looks in my small APT. This is like that one goofy dude that lives in a studio apt with a 67 inch bigscreen tv, and you have to sit so close you can only see 1/2 the screen without moving your head







.



> All my tanks have flush glass bottoms, by the way. In fact I've never seen one with a plastic trim underneath it here in Australia. I now put a sheet of polystyrene under each one, but I didn't on the first few tanks I had, and they didn't leak or crack. Most store-bought stands here just support the tank around the edges, or have a piece of thin board over the top of the stand.
> 
> From Alex.


That is good to hear.

The thing that is good, and bad about this tank's size is it will look Great if I scape it right and keep it algae free, but it will be the biggest eyesore if anything ever goes wrong.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Wow, its looking great! Its so much easier to see what you meant (about the plumbing) when we can SEE what you meant!


OOPS!!! I just realised that is the first picture I posted of the tank, I thought I put that in the first post, sorry.

Just to recap, where you see that strainer will have a ball valve on it which will attach to a hose and I can simply open up the valve for draining water. To fill I can hook the hose up to my sink and turn it on. I can then shut off the ball valve, and unscrew the hose for storage.

For the filters I plan to have the return and the drain inside the overflow box, along with the heater. There are 4 holes drilled in the bottom of the overflow.



> About the foam...... what I saw with the permanent footprint in it must have been some other kind of foam - I assumed it was insulation foam because it was in a big sheet, but it did not have any spring-back. Anyhow, it sounds like you know what you're doing with it. Sounds like a shim is what it will be. I'll have to keep that in mind myself if/when setting up an especially large tank!
> 
> Its looking great!
> -Jane


I saw the type of foam you are talking about at homedepot, it was a diffrent type of insalating material, diffrent type of foam. I did not buy that stuff because of your comments about what may happen.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have more pictures for you, right now the tank is sitting full of water and the filters are running for a test. The pictures were taken with 1 65W pc bulb sitting on top for light. The pictures of the underside were taken with just the camera's flash.

I had a HUGE scare when I filled the tank. After I got the tank filled up I went to close the doors on the stand and found that 2 no longer closed. After backing off the screws on the hinges of the two offending doors they could close just fine again.

I called a friend who was a house framer for a while and built cabinets and such for years, he came over and looked at the stand and said that some settling is to be expected when dealing with this much weight.

It settled about 1/16 of an inch and I am still worried about it, but we checked the tank for level and found it to still be just about perfect (just like it was before) so it seems to have settled evenly all the way around.

Please feel free to weigh in your comments about this situation, I plan to drain the tank tomorrow to add substrate and refill so if you have an opinion please post it.

Now on to the pics.

Here is my filter setup; you can see the two filters plumed into the overflow bulkheads. I had a little trouble with one nipple but after using more pipe tape I was able to seal it up. If it makes the day without dripping again I will call it fixed.










Here is the drain/fill valve I installed into the bottom of the tank, this will make water changes easy and allow me to fill the tank without disturbing the substrate.










Here is the tank in the early stages of filling, you can see the filters spraying water in, the magnum feeds water to the center 2 lock line fittings, and the fluval runs the outside 2 inputs.










Filling more (this part took awhile)









This is the lowest the water can be and have the filters work because they are plumed into the overflow. I figure I can evap about 30 gallons before I NEED to top off, but I hate to see the water line so I doubt I will let it go that far.










Here is the tank full, just like it is running now.









Thanks for reading and any comments you may have,
Whiskey


----------



## Endlersmom

Whiskey,

Thank you for taking the time to take pictures and share your work of art with us.

I enjoyed watching your setup of a 180G tank from the beginning.

I like the idea of a side door. I have never seen that before.

What foam did you use?

I like the hose at the bottom for removing the water.

Are the 3 other holes at the bottom capped?

Do you know what fish you would like to get?

I really hope you can enjoy your tank. I understand when you say:



> The thing that is good, and bad about this tank's size is it will look Great if I scape it right and keep it algae free, but it will be the biggest eyesore if anything ever goes wrong.


Do not worry about the algae. It will go away.









I have a 5 foot tank in small living room. All you see it the tank. I can walk all around it. It is in front of a window. I see through the tank to look outside. The tank has been set up two months, I am trying toaquascrape it and figure out the lights, the GW, a bit of hair algae etc. Most people get to stare at a large tv. I have the tank. It is a living work of art. I feel because it so big and the focal point of the room, there is more pressure for it to be perfect. Tanks take time to settle in. From what I have seen with the last 3 tanks I set up. The bigger they are, the more time it takes.

You have worked really hard, time to sit back and enjoy your tank and hard work.

Thanks again for sharing.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Endlersmom:
> Whiskey,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to take pictures and share your work of art with us.


No problem, thanks to everyone for following along and adding your advice and comments.


> I enjoyed watching your setup of a 180G tank from the beginning.
> 
> I like the idea of a side door. I have never seen that before.


Thanks, That will be used later for adding a 50 gallon sump under the tank if I ever set this tank up Reef. For now it gives me more acess to the filters, and an easy way to crawl underneeth the stand and go to sleep.


> What foam did you use?


I don't know, it is for home insalation, I doubt in Quebec you would be able to get the same brand anyway, but I just made sure that when I squished the foam it did not stay squished. I used 1/2 thickness and it has a thin plastic sheet on both sides to keep you from tearing it up.


> I like the hose at the bottom for removing the water.


Ya I felt guilty about not using any of those nice pre drilled holes, so I figured this would be an approiate use.



> Are the 3 other holes at the bottom capped?


Yes.


> Do you know what fish you would like to get?


All the fish from my other tanks will go in this tank, plus I will make some of the schools bigger.

IF anyone knowes if these fish are not compatible speek up now please. Also please tell me if you think this is too much.

16 Tiger Barbs
6 neon tetras
3 white clouds 
few guppies
3 cherry barbs
3 rasbaras
5 saes
1 cae (I think he is still in the 50, but I haven't seen him in a week. I have had him like 6 years)

I think that is all I have, I would like to get a couple more Rasbaras, tiger barbs, neon tetras, and white clouds.



> I really hope you can enjoy your tank. I understand when you say:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:
> The thing that is good, and bad about this tank's size is it will look Great if I scape it right and keep it algae free, but it will be the biggest eyesore if anything ever goes wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Do not worry about the algae. It will go away.
Click to expand...

I am just the worrying type, on the plus side it makes me do things a little better than I normaly would.











> I have a 5 foot tank in small living room. All you see it the tank. I can walk all around it. It is in front of a window. I see through the tank to look outside. The tank has been set up two months, I am trying toaquascrape it and figure out the lights, the GW, a bit of hair algae etc. Most people get to stare at a large tv. I have the tank. It is a living work of art. I feel because it so big and the focal point of the room, there is more pressure for it to be perfect. Tanks take time to settle in. From what I have seen with the last 3 tanks I set up. The bigger they are, the more time it takes.


Ya, mine too will be the dominating centre peice, I like it, I really do, I just hope it looks good when I get fish and plants in it.



> You have worked really hard, time to sit back and enjoy your tank and hard work.


It is not done yet, I still need to tear down my other 3 tanks and put the fish and plants in this one, but this is the fun part.



> Thanks again for sharing.


No problem,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Tonight I plan to buy my substrate, and I would like to add it to my tank (after I drain it).

Does anyone see any problem with putting in the substrate, and filling the tank (no light yet)and not having plants or fish for a week or two?

I will be using potting soil and gravel for substrate.

I would like to give the substrate a head start on settling down. I know it takes months but since I won't have the hood built for a week I thought I could give the substrate a head start.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Hey Whiskey: I've been following your post since the beginning and have to agree with everybody else in that you've done an awesome job. As for the substrate, I think its not a bad idea to let it settle for a bit. Although, in her book, Diana mentions that there's no added benefit in letting the soil sit before adding gravel and plants. However, in my tank, my soil released a lot of nitrite which ended up killing one of my rams (well, that and the ich did)... I would definetly test your water after youve planted it to make sure that everything is ok for fish

As for your fish, I think they all sound great. A school of like 20 or 30 tiger barbs would look awesome I bet! I'd be hesitant on the cherry barbs w/ them as they are pretty peaceful, shy fish in my experience. Also, white clouds are a cold water fish that do better in, well, colder water (I keep mine w/ a goldfish in an unheated tank during the winter and cold outside pond in the summer). I think the rasboras would be ok, as would the neons. A school of 20 or so neons would probably also look really nice!

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Hey Whiskey: I've been following your post since the beginning and have to agree with everybody else in that you've done an awesome job.


Thanks


> As for the substrate, I think its not a bad idea to let it settle for a bit. Although, in her book, Diana mentions that there's no added benefit in letting the soil sit before adding gravel and plants. However, in my tank, my soil released a lot of nitrite which ended up killing one of my rams (well, that and the ich did)... I would definetly test your water after youve planted it to make sure that everything is ok for fish


That is odd, I have added my substrate filled the tank and added fish and plants within 30min in 4 tanks without issues, but then it really depends on the substrate, if yours is fertilized with N then it could be part of the problem.



> As for your fish, I think they all sound great. A school of like 20 or 30 tiger barbs would look awesome I bet! I'd be hesitant on the cherry barbs w/ them as they are pretty peaceful, shy fish in my experience. Also, white clouds are a cold water fish that do better in, well, colder water (I keep mine w/ a goldfish in an unheated tank during the winter and cold outside pond in the summer). I think the rasboras would be ok, as would the neons. A school of 20 or so neons would probably also look really nice!
> 
> -ricardo


White cloud tetras are coldwater? I did not know that, I bought them when I bought my first tank years and years ago. I did not even know that plants could live under water then,.... geez those fish must be 7 years old now, I lost 1 about 2 years ago but the other 3 continue to plug on. Thanks for the info.

I love Tiger Barbs, I think they are my favarite freshwater fish, they are so active and move in groops always fun to watch.

My cherry barbs are one of my more nasty groops, like a 3 fish mofia, I am perty sure the guppies pay protection







. Come to think of it, they may be rosy barbs,...

I seem to have a bit of fallout with neons, I buy 10, and it seems that only 8 servive past the first 3 days. The ones that do live usually last at least 1.5 years but I don't like the inital dieoff, really cool colored fish though,...

The soil is in the tank, with the gravel and I picked up a nice peice of driftwood. I can't wait to get lighting over this so I can add plants. I just may rigg up some type of light so I can start planting tonight.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Avenolpey

When I put in my substrate I did a simultaneous fill and syphon until the water cleared. Seemed to work well.


----------



## Endlersmom

Whiskey,

Having set up 5 tanks with soil in the last two months. The nitrite spike was consistant in all of them. 

I think your idea of letting the soil soak may really help in the sense that you can do a water change a week later and remove the nitrites. Feed it some fish food, to start the cycle. If you can vacumm up some mulm to add to the soil, it would be great. When you are ready, remove water, add substrate and plant.

Are you planning to use any of the old substrate? 

If you are keeping your substrate, you can plan it that you place the substrate, plants and fish on the same day. For this though, make sure you have your lights.

Whatever you move from the old tanks will have nutrifing bacteria on it so you will be ahead of the game. 


Do you know keep the tiger barbs with the guppies. I think this may be a problem. Maybe because of the large school of tiger barbs they will leave the guppies alone. Make sure to have lots of hiding places.


----------



## flagg

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> I seem to have a bit of fallout with neons, I buy 10, and it seems that only 8 servive past the first 3 days. The ones that do live usually last at least 1.5 years but I don't like the inital dieoff, really cool colored fish though,...


Neons are not hardy fish at all. In my experience and in the experiences of most people I know, neons are quite sensitive and not very long-lived. If you like the color pattern (which I agre is very nice) I would say go with cardinal tetras as they live longer and, IMHO, are even nicer.

My substrate didn't contain any added ferts so I don't think that's where the nitrites would have come from... Diana has mentioned that she has seen nitrite spikes in some newly set up tanks so it seems like there's another cause, though what it is, I certainly don't know....

-ricardo


----------



## dwalstad

My substrate didn't contain any added ferts so I don't think that's where the nitrites would have come from... Diana has mentioned that she has seen nitrite spikes in some newly set up tanks so it seems like there's another cause, though what it is, I certainly don't know....

-ricardo[/QUOTE]

Organic matter in soils, invariably contains some nitrogen. When soil is newly submerged, bacteria further digest and recycle the soil's organic matter. See "Decomposition by Heterotrophic Bacteria" section, p. 58 in my book). You can expect some nitrogen release.

The amount released will depend on the amount and richness of the organic matter. Nitrogen release should taper off with time. As bacteria recycle and digest organic matter, they increasingly remove the desired nitrogen atoms. The end result of this "bacterial weathering" process is humic acids, which usually contain no nitrogen (humic acids are made up of just carbon, oxygen and hydrogen).

Thus, even soils that aren't fertilized with "chemicals" may release nitrogen into the water.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Avenolpey:
> When I put in my substrate I did a simultaneous fill and syphon until the water cleared. Seemed to work well.


I normaly do something simaler, I do 90% water changes in the begining whenever the water looks foggy when viewing the tank down the side.

While planting I am constantly filling and draining.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Endlersmom:
> Whiskey,
> 
> Having set up 5 tanks with soil in the last two months. The nitrite spike was consistant in all of them.


Interesting, I have not had this issue, I will keep an eye out for it though. It is possible that my test kit may be bad, it is about 1.5 years old.



> I think your idea of letting the soil soak may really help in the sense that you can do a water change a week later and remove the nitrites. Feed it some fish food, to start the cycle. If you can vacumm up some mulm to add to the soil, it would be great. When you are ready, remove water, add substrate and plant.


Yes I agree, however I got impatiant, and got off work early yesterday. I remember a passage in Diana's book saying the plants really like the ammonia and inital nutreant spike (good excuse right?).



> Are you planning to use any of the old substrate?


No, I find it is very hard to reuse the soil and gravel after takeing down a tank of this nature because it all kinda get's mixed together.



> Whatever you move from the old tanks will have nutrifing bacteria on it so you will be ahead of the game.


All the plants shoud have the bacteria on them, combined with the cycled filter pad's I think I will be ok.



> Do you know keep the tiger barbs with the guppies. I think this may be a problem. Maybe because of the large school of tiger barbs they will leave the guppies alone. Make sure to have lots of hiding places.


The tank will be heavily planted with plenty of places to hide. I origanaly put all my guppies in with the barbs as a form of population controal, it worked well and the guppies and the barbs seem to keep to themselvs.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Originally posted by Whiskey:
> I seem to have a bit of fallout with neons, I buy 10, and it seems that only 8 servive past the first 3 days. The ones that do live usually last at least 1.5 years but I don't like the inital dieoff, really cool colored fish though,...
> 
> 
> 
> Neons are not hardy fish at all. In my experience and in the experiences of most people I know, neons are quite sensitive and not very long-lived. If you like the color pattern (which I agre is very nice) I would say go with cardinal tetras as they live longer and, IMHO, are even nicer.
Click to expand...

Good to know, I will look into these cardinals. I did not think it was just me having problems with this fish. On the plus side you can usually get them 10,for $10.



> My substrate didn't contain any added ferts so I don't think that's where the nitrites would have come from... Diana has mentioned that she has seen nitrite spikes in some newly set up tanks so it seems like there's another cause, though what it is, I certainly don't know....
> 
> -ricardo


I don't know either,... I have never had an issue with this, I will get another test kit and keep an eye on the 180 and see if the problem surfaces there.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> quote:Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> My substrate didn't contain any added ferts so I don't think that's where the nitrites would have come from... Diana has mentioned that she has seen nitrite spikes in some newly set up tanks so it seems like there's another cause, though what it is, I certainly don't know....
> 
> -ricardo
> 
> 
> 
> Organic matter in soils, invariably contains some nitrogen. When soil is newly submerged, bacteria further digest and recycle the soil's organic matter. See "Decomposition by Heterotrophic Bacteria" section, p. 58 in my book). You can expect some nitrogen release.
> 
> The amount released will depend on the amount and richness of the organic matter. Nitrogen release should taper off with time. As bacteria recycle and digest organic matter, they increasingly remove the desired nitrogen atoms. The end result of this "bacterial weathering" process is humic acids, which usually contain no nitrogen (humic acids are made up of just carbon, oxygen and hydrogen).
> 
> Thus, even soils that aren't fertilized with "chemicals" may release nitrogen into the water.
Click to expand...

aah, well that certinally answers that. I will keep an eye on my 180 and see if the problem surfaces.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

As I eluded to earler, I have planted the tank, I was going to post pictures but my camera was dead and the extra batts and charger were at my friends house where I built the stand.









I got the co2 installed but I am having some problems with the reactor, I designed it for a flow rate of 66 GPH (it was on a 30G before) but now I am jamming 350GPH through it and I may need to make it longer so the bubbles don't get pushed straight through it.

I am still not sure on the light, I may end up adding 80W of NO floressent to the 320W of PC. Aafter I get the co2 working right I will see if I can get the plants to perl, that is how I will know if I am ok.

I almost don't want to post pics untill some of the plants grow in, but I will anyway as soon as I can, at least some macros of some of the full looking bits.

Thanks all,
Whiskey


----------



## krazy

Whisky,
You have inspired and embarrassed me. It's taken me longer to refinish and existing stand and move the tank than it took you to build yours. And you manage to reply on the message board. You must be a very hard worker!

On the light issue here's a link to a very old discussion on lighting and deep tanks. http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/depth.html#6
I can't seem to find links any more about why bigger tanks need less light. But it's something I've been looking into before investing any more money on mine.

Personally, I think you have enough to start. You can always add more.

The plywood doors on the stand remind me of a stand my husband built for a 55. After awhile they started to twist or warp. I mention it because that might be why you had problems closing them when you filled it.

Yeah, neon tetras are an expensive ammonia/nitrite test. IMHO I'd lay off tetras till I got the tank stablized. maybe some guppies?

It's looking good! Hope to see more pics this weekend.

Quit working so hard
Krazy


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by krazy:
> Whisky,
> You have inspired and embarrassed me. It's taken me longer to refinish and existing stand and move the tank than it took you to build yours. And you manage to reply on the message board. You must be a very hard worker!


That is not what my boss would like me to believe







. Really it is all about sleep, or lack there of.



> On the light issue here's a link to a very old discussion on lighting and deep tanks. http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/depth.html#6
> I can't seem to find links any more about why bigger tanks need less light. But it's something I've been looking into before investing any more money on mine.
> 
> Personally, I think you have enough to start. You can always add more.


I think you are correct on lighting, I have been looking at Ammano's book and he has plenty of tanks my size lit with the same amount or slightly under and he is able to grow glosso. I think if I keep the water clear I will be ok.



> The plywood doors on the stand remind me of a stand my husband built for a 55. After awhile they started to twist or warp. I mention it because that might be why you had problems closing them when you filled it.


That is not what caused the inital problem, it appears the stand has compressed slightly, and after going back and looking I can see where I left a 1/32 of a gap between the top/bottom frame and uprights. This must have happened when I was squaring up the stand before appling ply, I am only slightly worried. With a slight adjustment to the hinges I was able to get the doors to open and close without issue.

However you have a valid point about the doors warping, this is a worry of mine, the doors I made for the Oscar's 125 did warp but I did not stain them for a few months so I hope the stain/varnish will prevent that here.



> Yeah, neon tetras are an expensive ammonia/nitrite test. IMHO I'd lay off tetras till I got the tank stablized. maybe some guppies?


Both are already in there, I have no problem keeping these fish alive provided they last the first 3 days after I buy them (knock on wood).



> It's looking good! Hope to see more pics this weekend.


This weekend? How about right now?



> Quit working so hard
> Krazy


Not a chance!









Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Hood building has begun,&#8230;.

I decided that because the stand and tank are so tall I did not want to have to reach over a hood too, so building this hood I left the part that covers the tank trim only on the front. The lid comes down at a 90 and covers the front of the tank. This hood will be hinged so the front and 3 inches of the top can be opened, or the whole hood lights and all can come up. I did this so I can easily feed the fish without having to disturb the lights. I also made the lid in 2 sections, one 48 inch and one 25 ¾ inch for ease of lifting. I could not split it right down the middle because then I would be splitting it right in the middle of one of my lights.

Here is the hood base, the low side will be the front.









Here are the hood doors/lids they are not cut 3 inches back from the front yet because I need to wait for the glue to dry.









Now the tank has already been planted, the lights are setup temporarily to accommodate the plants and the CO2 has been installed. Although I want to let some of the stem plants grow in before any major photo session, here are some teasers J . Never mind the couldy, slightly yellow water, remember this tank was planted yesterday and we all know what tanks setup with potting soil do for a month or so.

Idea of the general layout, during planting.









Looking up the driftwood,









A little undergrowth,









This plant and a few others were given to me a week ago, (Thank-you Orin999), I really love it, and it seems to grow quite fast.









Thanks for reading, I welcome all comments (good or bad) as always,
Whiskey


----------



## Aquatic addict

That's going to be quite a display; you could hang a sign and charge admission. All of your plants are beauties already, Whiskey. Fantastic!


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Marc M:
> That's going to be quite a display; you could hang a sign and charge admission. All of your plants are beauties already, Whiskey. Fantastic!


Thanks for the complement, it is good to know people are still reading and following along.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

The progress on the hood continues,&#8230; Now all that is left is sanding and stain (I hate that bit).

Here is the hood completely closed up, I have not put trim on yet, you are looking at the front.









Here is the hood with just the front hatch doors open, these will be used for feeding and small jobs like testing, so I don't have to disturb the lights.









The doors also open all the way up to allow access to the full top of the tank, the lighting will be bolted here so it will also swing out of the way. The board laying in the hood holds up the middle, on the second hinge point. It is also removable to allow easy access.









Here is a shot with the hood closed and the trim on.









Here is a side shot with just the front doors up, and the trim on.









Here is a shot of my CO2 system. Most of the components are self explanatory, but the white pipe with the hoses going into it is a external DIY reactor, it is powered by the Magnum 350 that is peaking into the pic at the far left.









I await your questions and comments,
Thanks for reading,
Whiskey


----------



## Avenolpey

Looks awesome. I was just looking back at pictures of your stand doors. I think you should consider glueing some cross braces. Maybe 4 or 5 runnng at 45 degrees.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Avenolpey:
> Looks awesome. I was just looking back at pictures of your stand doors. I think you should consider glueing some cross braces. Maybe 4 or 5 runnng at 45 degrees.


I am sorry, I don't quite catch your meaning. Are you saying I should glue 4 boards onto the back of the door itself in the shape of an X? Would this be to stiffin them up? If so what kind of wood should I use, The 1/2 inch ply or something like 1x2's?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Avenolpey

I was thinking that some very light molding glued diagonally. Like the bracing on the underside of a guitar top. An x pattern might work well. Maybe even balsa to keep it light. Anything too heavy will stress your hinges.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Avenolpey:
> I was thinking that some very light molding glued diagonally. Like the bracing on the underside of a guitar top. An x pattern might work well. Maybe even balsa to keep it light. Anything too heavy will stress your hinges.


Ok, and this will help keep the door from warping? Will it make the door less floppy? I have some pine that is pretty light I could glue that on.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have a correction on the fish list,
I don't have white clouds, I have white skirt tetras. I have been calling these guys the wrong thing for so many years,...









I also don't have cherry barbs, I have rosey barbs. I am so bad with names.

I saw the coolest fish at the LFS the other day, it was called a Pearl Gerami (I spelled that way wrong) do you know anything about this guy? Are they schooling fish? Good for planted tanks? How big do they get? Will they be ok with the rest of the fish?

tiger barbs
white skirt tetras
neon tetras
rosey barbs 
Sae's
Cae
rasbaras
gupppies
ect,..

I was thinking that this would be a really cool "Show" fish for the tank. The one fish that really grabs your eye and stands out away from the rest. Since I have schools of everything else I thought this would create a nice tention.

I await your advice,
Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

The pearl gourami is one of my favorite fish! Unfortunately, they should be kept with slow-moving, peaceful fish. Of you fish, I think they'd go well with the neons, rasboras and the guppies. The others are too agressive. If you want to keep T. leeri, then you might want to get rid of the tiger barbs, skirt tetras, and rosy barbs. The algae eaters may be a prob too, but I'm not 100% sure about that. 

Pearl gouramis do best in a planted tank. Make sure to keep plenty of floating plants. In your tank you could probably keep two or three pairs. Sexing them is easy as males have bright orange bellies and females don't. 

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> The pearl gourami is one of my favorite fish! Unfortunately, they should be kept with slow-moving, peaceful fish. Of you fish, I think they'd go well with the neons, rasboras and the guppies. The others are too agressive. If you want to keep T. leeri, then you might want to get rid of the tiger barbs, skirt tetras, and rosy barbs. The algae eaters may be a prob too, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
> 
> Pearl gouramis do best in a planted tank. Make sure to keep plenty of floating plants. In your tank you could probably keep two or three pairs. Sexing them is easy as males have bright orange bellies and females don't.
> 
> -ricardo


That really is too bad, I thought they would be a neat fish.

Ok, so does anyone have any suggestions for fish I should look into to be my "show" fish? Come on, this is your chance to plug your favorite fish







.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whisky!

WOW.... I don't get online for a few days and SO much has happened! I agree with Krazy.... you ARE a hard worker!

Gee, for a second, I thought I found a home for my Pearl Gourami up for adoption on the BAS (Boston Aquarium Society) website. They get fairly large, and really should be in groups, or they get agressive (that's what happened with mine). Also, they're cousins of the Cichlid family. But although they like to be the boss, they aren't very fast, so would probably get nipped by the barbs. Ditto for Angelfish - they've got even more fins to shred. That said, they are a very pretty fish. Mine's outgrown the tank, and I don't want to put her in my larger community tank - she'd wreak havoc. 

I think the schools of fish will fill the place of a few larger "centerpiece" fish you're thinking of. Or, have a centerpiece plant, and the schools of fish will complement it. 

Its looking good! I'm fascinated to follow the hood construction - you've put a lot of thought into access and functionality, as well as form. I usually find fault with the pre-fab hoods I see, because they either are hard to work with, or are not good looking furniture. Like another poster, I also like the side door on your stand. What a great idea. 

I hope you don't mind, I've downloaded some of your pictures like a template or starting guide - I don't have access to the tools to do it myself, but I might have someone make me one (trade-in-kind carpentry for bookkeeping setup). Anyhow, you've got me thinking......

So I've always avoided barbs based on their agressive reputation - but you've got them with guppies?? Wow. 

Thanks for sharing this thread with us..... I've learned so much, and its really cool to see this take shape!
-Jane


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Hey Whisky!
> 
> WOW.... I don't get online for a few days and SO much has happened! I agree with Krazy.... you ARE a hard worker!


I don't know, I have been really lazy lately, I don't have a drop of stain on that hood yet.



> Gee, for a second, I thought I found a home for my Pearl Gourami up for adoption on the BAS (Boston Aquarium Society) website. They get fairly large, and really should be in groups, or they get agressive (that's what happened with mine). Also, they're cousins of the Cichlid family. But although they like to be the boss, they aren't very fast, so would probably get nipped by the barbs. Ditto for Angelfish - they've got even more fins to shred. That said, they are a very pretty fish. Mine's outgrown the tank, and I don't want to put her in my larger community tank - she'd wreak havoc.
> 
> I think the schools of fish will fill the place of a few larger "centerpiece" fish you're thinking of. Or, have a centerpiece plant, and the schools of fish will complement it.


Perhaps you are right, I may just get a really large school of tiger barbs, like 30 of them







. I am not sure if your fish could make it in the mail that far anyway, I live in Phoenix.



> Its looking good! I'm fascinated to follow the hood construction - you've put a lot of thought into access and functionality, as well as form. I usually find fault with the pre-fab hoods I see, because they either are hard to work with, or are not good looking furniture. Like another poster, I also like the side door on your stand. What a great idea.


Thanks, that kind of door is common place in custom made SW stands. IME most people with really nice salt water setups endup making their own stands, or having someone do it for them simply because the indistry has not cought on to some of these little features that make what we want to do possible.



> I hope you don't mind, I've downloaded some of your pictures like a template or starting guide - I don't have access to the tools to do it myself, but I might have someone make me one (trade-in-kind carpentry for bookkeeping setup). Anyhow, you've got me thinking......


I don't mind, download away, that is what I started this thread for, sharing of ideas.



> So I've always avoided barbs based on their agressive reputation - but you've got them with guppies?? Wow.


The Tiger Barbs don't even look at the guppies (or that long flowing tail) they are just no fun, don't move fast enough maybe. All they are intrested in is something they can eat or something that will be chased, and chace them back. When I put the really small neons in the tank the smallest one got picked off by the barbs, each one of them took turns trying to swallow it and could not, stressfull! I am sure but they have not bothered it, or any of the others again.



> Thanks for sharing this thread with us..... I've learned so much, and its really cool to see this take shape!
> -Jane


Thank-you for your continued support, without people reading, following along, and commenting this thread would never exist. Next time everyone reading decides to setup a tank, and has the tools, consider doing a thread just like this, it is lots of fun for all.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I am doing this tank buildup thread in 2 places, here in the "Natural" fourm, and on a High Tech fourm I have frequented for a while to get both opinions since this tank is kind of a cross between methods. Somebody in the "High Tech" fourm had a question on my drain/fill setup and I thought you might be intrested in the answer too. The quote won't make any sence because I am quoting somebody from another sight, but it does set the question. My name is Whiskey there too







.



> I have a question for you whiskey regarding your drain/fill device.
> Well, not actually a question, but can you describe how it's set up for draining/filling, how you hide it in the tank, and any other info you think would be good for us to know about it.


I will be happy to, after typing this a couple of different ways I think it would be much clearer to add some pictures.

Here you see the tank empty but with this pluming installed. This tank has 4 holes in the bottom pane of glass, these holes fit ¾ bulkheads. Three of the bulkheads are simply capped off (pipe cap) but I used the fourth for a drain/fill device pictured here, in this pic the tank is empty .










The bulkhead I used is thread/thread. (inside the tank) This goes into a ¾ inch sprinkler riser that is 1 inch tall, which threads into a ¾ thread/thread coupler and finally a ¾ threaded intake strainer threads into that. (DFS carries them as well as any well stocked salt water LFS)

On the other side of the bulkhead (the underside of the tank) the bulkhead is threaded into a ¾ threaded/3/4 barbed 90 DEG fitting. A ¾ inch rubber hose is put over the barbed side of this and it runs to another fitting that is exactly the same, that fitting threads into a ¾ inch thread/thread ball valve (to shut it off). This ball valve is mounted to the 2/4's using pipe hold down brackets. On the other side of this ball valve is a ¾ thread to ¾ barb straight fitting that goes to a short length of ¾ rubber hose and onto this is installed a hose repair kit (the thing you use to install a new end to your hose when you run it over with a lawnmower). This converts the ¾ pipe thread, to a standard hose thread, I also used another ball valve made for your hose on this just incase a piece of sand gets stuck in the other ball valve and stops it from closing (an ounce of prevention,&#8230.










The reason I used the rubber hose between the bulkhead and ball valve is if I had screwed the ball valve directly into the bulkhead, the turning on, and off, of the ball valve would eventually stress and crack the bulkhead. This would drain 180 gallons of water onto my living room floor with no chance of me stopping it, BAD NEWS.

To change the water in my tank, I simply hook up a regular garden hose to the fitting you see sticking straight at you, place the hose into my bathtub (lowest drain in the apt) and open the ball valves. To fill the tank after draining is done, I shut off one of the ball valves, hook the hose up to my sink (I have a garden hose adapter for the sink) pour some Stress Coat into the tank, open the ball valve back up and turn the sink on. When the tank is full I just remove and store the hose under the tank (after I get the water out of it).

Hiding the strainer was the easy bit, I put plants around it J.










The strainer is just finger tight, so if I ever need to remove it I can simply unscrew it without disturbing the substrate, and if I ever need to work on the rubber hose or something before the first ball valve, I can install a temporary cap in it's place to prevent the water coming out without even draining the tank.

I hope this answered your question, if you have any more, feel free to ask.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Wow, Whiskey! You have really put a lot of thought into this, like everybody else here, I'm very impressed. Excellent job! I'm wondering, will the water flow into the tank from your sink w/out problems? 

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

Thanks Rick, I don't have any problems with the sink filling the tank. The only problem I do have relates to the fact that this is simply 180 gallons of water, it takes about 20 min to fill it from compleatlly empty.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I am so exited it is not even funny, I am literally jumping up and down, check this out.

When I did the tank change over I threw all the plants I did not use into the oscar tank for the koi to eat. Today my friend came over to pick through for a nice java fern and as he was moving them (and trying to avoid the oscar) a little fish swam out. He said "dude you have a baby Tiger Barb in here" I replied "bull S#!%" Then he is all "no really" (it was a really high class conversation) but sure enough when I looked there was a baby Tiger Barb swimming amongst the plants. How he avoided the 8 inch koi, the 2, 3 inch silver dollars and the big 13 inch oscar I will never know (it is a 125 gallon tank) but suffice it to say I netted him QUICK!

The barb is less than ¼ inch and very hard to get a pic of but here is the attempt, right now he is schooling with the neon tetras and they don't seem to mind I hope he does well.

Him near some plants









Him in the net









I have never had an egg laying fish breed in a tank before, usually the light or other fish kill the eggs this is really something, makes up for my day at work for sure.

I need to go work on my hood some more, you will probably hear from me again later tonight/tomorrow.

Whiskey


----------



## javalee

Truly "au naturale!" How funny that he thinks he's a neon tetra! BTW, I'm very jealous of your huge custom tank and stand.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by javalee:
> Truly "au naturale!" How funny that he thinks he's a neon tetra! BTW, I'm very jealous of your huge custom tank and stand.


Thanks, I love the fact that I had an egg laying fish spawn, I never thought I would see that without making a special tank setup for that purpose.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I can't get that fluval 404 to work right, it runs fine for about 1 day, then will slow to almost a drip. I was tearing it out daily to keep it working but I finally gave up and put my fluval 202 on this tank, I am now even more worried that I don't have enough filtration, but the filter keeps working.

Anyone else had this problem? Anything you can suggest checking? The impeller seems to spin freely, it is perfectly clean, and it even does this with no media baskets in it (nothing inside).

The progress continues (finally). I have been working on sanding/staining/painting the hood.

In this first picture I have the hinges installed and the hood closed I am going to need 2 more hinges for the large door because it sags a little in the middle.









In this picture the front flaps are up









Here is a picture with the whole lid up









Unfortunately I ran out of stain before I got much stained. What is not pictured is me kicking myself for not buying the big can for $3.00 more. This is as far as I was able to get on the staining. I used the Photoshop "AUTOLEVELS" for this pic because it was dark and you could not see the panels, but now it looks a little weird.









I always paint the inside of my hood white, I don't care how good your reflectors are, some light makes it out of the tank and into the hood (some even reflects off the surface of the water), in my experience painting the inside white makes a noticeable difference in light intensity. Lighting is the biggest long term expense in keeping a freshwater planted tank (bulb replacement and power) and I want to get the biggest bang for my buck.

Here is the painting, I almost ran out of paint, 2 inches taller and I would have run out. I don't use normal paint, it is actually white sealer/primer normally you would use this to seal and protect the wood and paint over it but it is the color I want so I don't need to paint over it.

I did that "AUTOLEVEL" thing here too, so that is why the pic looks a little weird.









Thanks for reading,
Comments welcome,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

6 pages, Sweet, let's see if we can get this to 10







.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Anyone up for a full tank shot????

Now remember there is a lot of growing in left to do, there are a few back bare spots that have stem plants but they are not past the mid ground yet. Some of the plants look a little pathetic, because they were a part of a failed experiment, and are recovering as we speak, and I don't have a good idea for a foreground yet, but here it is.

The ONLY modification to these pics is simply cropping them and resizing them for faster download.




























Any ideas?,
Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## Ben C

Hi Whiskey..

Its looking good. I know this comment probably comes a bit late, but might be something to think about.. one thing that stands out for me is that the substrate is universally level. It would be nice to see a bit of variation in the substrate depths in places. Otherwise, i can't wait to see it fill in. Good work.


----------



## Erin

Wow it looks fab!!! I bet those are some happy fishies right about now! I can't wait to see it again in a few months with everything grown in.


----------



## flagg

Awesome, awesome job whiskey! I wish I could come over to your apt. to see it in person! Of course, if I did, you'd probably have a hard time getting me to leave!! 

I don't know what the problem might be w/ your 404, the only thing that comes to mind is a clogging of the hoses and/or output, especially if you're running it w/out any media to trap stray particles... I think overall fluval's aren't the best choice (something I discovered w/ my own fluval when I used to have it running) although I've also heard that the new models (the square ones) were supposed to have some enhancements over their older models. As far as canister filters go, I think your best bet is to go w/ Eheims, in terms of overall efficiency.

That being said, I wouldn't worry about filtration too much. In the "el natural"/Walstad style setup, the purpose of the filter is to circulate the water just to keep the temp even and bring nutrients to the plants. With all those plants you got, I think they'll do a fine job of maintaining your water quality, esepcially once they all grow in... My own 30 gal only has a powerhead w/ an aqua clear filter attached just for mechanical filtration. And my 10 gal doesn't have a filter at all.

Lastly, I think your plants will grow in just fine. The plants should really get going after a couple of weeks. I too have some bare spots in my tank, but it's just a matter of waiting for plants to fill in those areas. Of course, as Tom Petty has said, "the waiting is the hardest part"....

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ben C:
> Hi Whiskey..
> 
> Its looking good. I know this comment probably comes a bit late, but might be something to think about.. one thing that stands out for me is that the substrate is universally level. It would be nice to see a bit of variation in the substrate depths in places. Otherwise, i can't wait to see it fill in. Good work.


Thank-you, with a soil substrate I find it to hard to layer the substrate like you suggest. Also it seems whenever I have tried, after about 2 months I end up with a flat substrate anyway. I decided just to avoid the hassle and use the wood comming up out of the substrate and not just laying on it, for a diffrent, intresting look.

I will continue to post full tank shots about every week or so to folow the "grow in" timeline.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> Wow it looks fab!!! I bet those are some happy fishies right about now! I can't wait to see it again in a few months with everything grown in.


Thank-you I will continue to post weekly (aprox) updates so you can follow it's growth, I always like growth shots.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Awesome, awesome job whiskey! I wish I could come over to your apt. to see it in person! Of course, if I did, you'd probably have a hard time getting me to leave!!


Next time you are in phoenix, let me know.



> I don't know what the problem might be w/ your 404, the only thing that comes to mind is a clogging of the hoses and/or output, especially if you're running it w/out any media to trap stray particles... I think overall fluval's aren't the best choice (something I discovered w/ my own fluval when I used to have it running) although I've also heard that the new models (the square ones) were supposed to have some enhancements over their older models. As far as canister filters go, I think your best bet is to go w/ Eheims, in terms of overall efficiency.


Ya I like eheims too, but I have the fluval. This is the square model, and I did run it with all the media in it in the begining, but I thought that one of the baskets may be shifting/blocking the flow, so I tried without and still have a problem. The other intresting thing is I can't always get it to start up. I may just have to scrap it and keep using the 204.


> That being said, I wouldn't worry about filtration too much. In the "el natural"/Walstad style setup, the purpose of the filter is to circulate the water just to keep the temp even and bring nutrients to the plants. With all those plants you got, I think they'll do a fine job of maintaining your water quality, esepcially once they all grow in... My own 30 gal only has a powerhead w/ an aqua clear filter attached just for mechanical filtration. And my 10 gal doesn't have a filter at all.


You are right, but it would be nice to be able to use the stuff I have, I may end up replacing it with a closed loop insted, but I would like to concider that a last resort.



> Lastly, I think your plants will grow in just fine. The plants should really get going after a couple of weeks. I too have some bare spots in my tank, but it's just a matter of waiting for plants to fill in those areas. Of course, as Tom Petty has said, "the waiting is the hardest part"....
> 
> -ricardo


Totaly, I find that waiting for a FW tank to grow in is nothing compaired to the years I have been waiting for my SW reef tank to grow in.

I will post new pics about weekly so we can all follow the grow in process.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I am looking into adding 2 diffrent types of fish to my 180 gallon tank. I would like to get a pair of kribs, and I would also like to find/find some information on a spotted or striped raphael. Does anyone have any information, or comments on these types of fish? One thing that worries me about the kribs is that they might dig too much.

Suggestions welcome,
Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whisky!

Yeah, Its looking really nice!

As to the Striped Raphael (catfish)....... I'd unfortunately vote "NO". I had a housemate who also had an aquarium, and he had a Raphael catfish. It ate EVERYTHING in the tank. They're nocturnal, so it was very passive looking during the day. But, every morning, he was missing a fish. This thing ate everything that could fit in its mouth, even fast swimmers (we think it just got them in their sleep). It ended up being very expensive to feed, as it managed to eat:

8 Neon Tetras
4 striped Danios
1 small corydoras catfish (we think).

If something will fit in its mouth, it will eat it. Even the angelfish and the Giant Danios were fearful.

Personally, I'd avoid them, as I'd bet not even your tiger barbs would be safe. 

How about some nice loaches? They might fill the niche you seem to be looking to fill, and are interesting and can be colorful. I've seen Horseface Loaches around here lately - they're really unusual looking, get long (5") and would be beneficial. Also, true SAEs can get pretty large (I've seen them almost 4" long) and would be an asset to your planted tank. 

I'm not sure about Kribs, but I seem to recall they require pretty hard water. They are also territorial by nature. Rams could also do OK in a community tank, stay fairly small, and love planted tanks. 

Its looking really nice, though - I can picture the plants growing in!
-Jane


----------



## Jane of Upton

Another thought on Loaches - The Clown Loaches look great in a group, especially in a planted tank. They tend to be shy unless in a group, but then will be more active and visible. 

I have a couple of Yo Yo loaches that have gotten pretty large (3.5") and they're active, inquisitive, and seem to be quite bold, right out in the open (not as shy as some loaches). 

How about a Pictus Cat? They're large, spotted, and active. 

I just wouldn't go for the Striped Raphael. I know they're interesting looking, but they WILL eat your tetras.

-Jane


----------



## whiskey

Jane,

Thank-you for your reply, the reason I don't want to get loaches is because they eat snailes and I love my MTS and they help to keep the substrate airated. 

Very intresting information on the rapheal, I did not know they could be aggressave, so it looks like he is out as well.

Kribs are river dwelling african cichlids and like softer water than their lake dwelling cousins but I don't know if "softer" means gh of 160, KH of 120.

I will try to get more information on the Rams, and see if that is something I could keep.

I do have "true" SAE's, 4 of them, and right now they are about 3 inches long. I love these fish and they are great on algae, and cool looking to boot.

I also have one "false" SAE and he is cool too, but won't hang with the others, and has a slightly diffrent look.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## javalee

Whiskey, it's great to see the tank planted and fish-filled. I have to say that I ADORE the tiger barbs! I think they are the most beautiful, striking fish, but they are so nippy and need so much room that I've never been able to keep them. I bet in a tank that large and comfortable you don't have much nipping going on. The Tiger Barbs alone make a flashy "centerpiece," I think.

Blue rams are gorgeous little fish and would be very pretty and happy in your tank, but Bolivian rams get a little larger at about 3.5" but they are mainly whitish with ruby-red outline on the fins, and with the white substrate I don't know how much they'd show up. Of course, you are about to have a lot of Green in that tank and the gravel will be covered up soon I bet! Breeding pairs of rams of either type get really nasty when breeding, though. Do Kribs get mean too?


----------



## flagg

Whiskey: I would be concerned about the barbs w/ the rams, as rams are pretty peaceful fish. Bolivians are definetly hardier than their German Blue cousins and maybe a better choice. As for kribs, they should do just fine in such a large tank. You could more than likely get away w/ having two or three pair in a six foot tank.

I've kept raphael catfish before and personally, I love them. In my tanks, they've always left other fish alone, so I was a little surprised w/ Jane's friend's experience. I've seen conflicting information about how big they get w/ a general consensus being about 4 to 6 inches. Another thing you might want to consider is that I've heard that they may eat snails...

As for loaches, not all loaches eat snails and of those that do, some do more than others. Clown loaches will definetly love the MTS. I had a tank w/ two clowns and would constantly find empty MTS shells in the tank. I'll tell you one loach I absolutely LOVE, but don't really have a nice tank large enough for it (like yours) and that is the weather loach. It's long and slender, with an eel-like body. VERY pretty fish with great personality. In a large tank like yours you could probably get away with keeping 3 - 5 of them. And, when I have kept the weather loach, its always left my snails alone.

-ricardo


----------



## dwalstad

Great looking tank! I'm absolutely amazed by your energy and creativity.

Did you not want to add any floating plants? They would help keep this tank on the right track.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by javalee:
> Whiskey, it's great to see the tank planted and fish-filled. I have to say that I ADORE the tiger barbs! I think they are the most beautiful, striking fish, but they are so nippy and need so much room that I've never been able to keep them. I bet in a tank that large and comfortable you don't have much nipping going on. The Tiger Barbs alone make a flashy "centerpiece," I think.


Ya, I love tiger barbs, they are very active fish, however when ever I go to take a close up look of the tank they all go to the front glass right in front of my face. Smart, but anoying







. Even in my 50 gallon tank I did not have any problems with them nipping, or before that when I only had 4 in the 20 gallon it was not an issue, I really think these really cool fish get a bad rap.


> Blue rams are gorgeous little fish and would be very pretty and happy in your tank, but Bolivian rams get a little larger at about 3.5" but they are mainly whitish with ruby-red outline on the fins, and with the white substrate I don't know how much they'd show up. Of course, you are about to have a lot of Green in that tank and the gravel will be covered up soon I bet! Breeding pairs of rams of either type get really nasty when breeding, though. Do Kribs get mean too?


I don't know if kribs get mean, I am looking for advice on things like that







, the rams sure seem like cool fish, but rick does not seem to think that they will get along. I think I need to take a list of fish to a LFS and go stare at the fish in question, watch their behavoure and see what I think.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Whiskey: I would be concerned about the barbs w/ the rams, as rams are pretty peaceful fish. Bolivians are definetly hardier than their German Blue cousins and maybe a better choice. As for kribs, they should do just fine in such a large tank. You could more than likely get away w/ having two or three pair in a six foot tank.


I think I will look into the kribs, rams, rapheal, ect,.. at a well stocked LFS and see how they act.


> I've kept raphael catfish before and personally, I love them. In my tanks, they've always left other fish alone, so I was a little surprised w/ Jane's friend's experience. I've seen conflicting information about how big they get w/ a general consensus being about 4 to 6 inches. Another thing you might want to consider is that I've heard that they may eat snails...


Dangit, another fish that eats snailes, plus if you think about it a fish that gets to 4-6 inches is going to have a 1 inch mouth, a lot of fish could fit in that if the catfish ever got jumpy. Plus that size of fish could rip out a lot of plants just by being clumsy, it might be best to hold off on this one.



> As for loaches, not all loaches eat snails and of those that do, some do more than others. Clown loaches will definetly love the MTS. I had a tank w/ two clowns and would constantly find empty MTS shells in the tank. I'll tell you one loach I absolutely LOVE, but don't really have a nice tank large enough for it (like yours) and that is the weather loach. It's long and slender, with an eel-like body. VERY pretty fish with great personality. In a large tank like yours you could probably get away with keeping 3 - 5 of them. And, when I have kept the weather loach, its always left my snails alone.
> 
> -ricardo


Do you have any more info on this weather loach? How big does it get? Does it tend to pull up plants? Is it clumsy?

I think I will enlarge my school of tiger barbs for sure, I think that would make for good visual appeal. That is at least something I know I can do without issues.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> Great looking tank! I'm absolutely amazed by your energy and creativity.
> 
> Did you not want to add any floating plants? They would help keep this tank on the right track.


Thank-you, you know it is funny you mention that, I went to look at the top of my tank and found that all the duckweed I added is now gone. My 25 gallon never could grow duckweed, in my 50 it barley hung on, never really grew and never really died, and in my 29 it always grew like wildfire. I wonder if my java fern and anubious are stealing all the nutreants from it?

The 10 gallon I left setup still has a good bit of duckweed growing in it, so I may try to move some of it over to the 180 and see if it does better now for some reason.

Or it could have just gone in the filter, I will be cleaning that soon so I will know then.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Do you have any more info on this weather loach? How big does it get? Does it tend to pull up plants? Is it clumsy?


I'll tell you what I can... They get to be about 8 - 10 inches, I think, maybe a little smaller. It does not eat plants. My friend had one in a planted tank it it would find some leaves to rest on and just hang out. It is a jumper so a cover is necessary. However, even if it does jump out, it has an amazing ability to survive outside of the water. It's peaceful and accepts a variety of food. Do a search on google for "weather loach" and you'll find plent of info as it's a common species.

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Do you have any more info on this weather loach? How big does it get? Does it tend to pull up plants? Is it clumsy?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll tell you what I can... They get to be about 8 - 10 inches, I think, maybe a little smaller. It does not eat plants. My friend had one in a planted tank it it would find some leaves to rest on and just hang out. It is a jumper so a cover is necessary. However, even if it does jump out, it has an amazing ability to survive outside of the water. It's peaceful and accepts a variety of food. Do a search on google for "weather loach" and you'll find plent of info as it's a common species.
> 
> -ricardo
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, I will look into this fish a little more.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, I have been working a lot lately (real job), and have not had much time to update this thread with new pictures, or get much work done so what I did do will come at you kinda fast.

Here is the hood stained, assembled and closed









Here is the hood with only the front doors up, you can really see how the white reflects light, you can hardly see the stain.









The hood completely open, you can see all my stain mistakes in this pic.









hood on the tank, which also gives you a chance to see what a dump my APT is right now.









Finally a follow up on the tank grow in process, I did a little trimming of anubias leaves, and I have my first anubias flower in the new tank. Two of the black swords are putting off runners too, so I should have a bunch of new sword plantlets soon.









Now don't think this thread is over, heck no, I still have an automatic doser to build from my own design, and I need to do something about the window screen around the overflow teeth (no idea what to do here) not to mention the follow up pics so you can see how the tank is growing in.

Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

Wow! It's all looking great! Are you going to have ground cover plants along the front or leave open gravel?



> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> ... I still have an automatic doser to build from my own design...


Maybe I missed something earlier on but I thought this was going to be a low-tech tank. Why do you need to dose anything?

From Alex.


----------



## flagg

Hey Whiskey: How about some floating plants in case you have a sudden surge of nutrients into the water as is possible w/ some soil tanks. Some water sprite, duck weed and salivinia would provide some nice cover....

-ricardo


----------



## Jeremy Blaze

Looks very nice! Fellow reefer aren't you? Recognize you from RC!

I'm setting up my first plant tank as well!


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Wow! It's all looking great! Are you going to have ground cover plants along the front or leave open gravel?


I do intend to have some sort of plant in front for ground cover, I would like it to be glosso, but my rosey barbs keep ripping up the plantlets. This is something that my take a little time to decide, but I am working on it







.



> quote:Originally posted by Whiskey:
> ... I still have an automatic doser to build from my own design...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed something earlier on but I thought this was going to be a low-tech tank. Why do you need to dose anything?
> 
> From Alex.
Click to expand...

You did miss something back on the first page (or at least I think you did). This tank is sortof a hybred, it does have co2 injection but the levels are maintaned at 12 PPM, (High tech requires 30PPM) It will be dosed with ferts but I use the same dosing scedule I did for my 30Gallon high tech (lower levels of ferts by manny times). The reason this is possible is the soil substrate, when I tried this with florite I got nothing but algae. I found IME that the CO2 and Ferts help the plants grow faster, I think it makes them look better, and it seems to alow me to keep a lot more speices than without it. Plus I had the stuff, so why not use it?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Hey Whiskey: How about some floating plants in case you have a sudden surge of nutrients into the water as is possible w/ some soil tanks. Some water sprite, duck weed and salivinia would provide some nice cover....
> 
> -ricardo


I did have some duck weed in there, but it all dissapeared, I don't think it liked my tank conditions much, I still have some growing in a 10 gallon true to the book natural tank and I will add more a little later and see how it does.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jeremy Blaze:
> Looks very nice! Fellow reefer aren't you? Recognize you from RC!


Yes I am, my name is Wiskey on RC, I was into planted tanks before Reef tanks. If you need any help let me know.


> I'm setting up my first plant tank as well!


Exelent, they are a lot of fun, and not nearly as touchy as my SPS tank







.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

So I did miss something! Sorry, this thread is long and I got lost!









How about some small Crypts for the foreground? With their deep roots they might be able to withstand the attentions of the Rosy Barbs.

From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> So I did miss something! Sorry, this thread is long and I got lost!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about some small Crypts for the foreground? With their deep roots they might be able to withstand the attentions of the Rosy Barbs.
> 
> From Alex.


I hear you, accually I am working on a record, I want this thread to hit 20 pages







.

There are some small red crypts in the mid/fore ground on the right. You can't really see them becasue I made the pictures small, and the plants are low right now.

The centre forground I want to keep really low, I think this is the only way to compliment the wave form that my tank has unintentally taken on.

I think right now I want the tank to grow in and take a feel for itself, then I can figure out what will compliment this feel.

I had an aquacape, I had an idea, but this tank has taken a life of it's own already, all I can do is go with the flow. For now I am trying to sort the flow out,.....









Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Just a bad pic of a neat flower









Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whisky! Its looking GREAT!

I especially like that picture a few posts back taken from the left, where you dont' get the head-on glare of the lights - its more subdued, and really points to how beautiful this tank will be!

Are those huge java ferns on the left? Or are those swords (I can't tell from the pict, and don't have the largest screen in the world) - whatever they are, They're Gorgeous!

More about the loaches - I have Yo Yo Loaches in with my Malaysian Trumpet Snails. At the very beginning I put a few in to see if the snails would survive. They are "trapdoor" snails, meaning they have an operculum to close up tight. I found a few empty shells at first, but the snails seem to have "learned" to close up quick, and the loaches are "trained" that its rather futile to go after the MTS, so the population is now growing. I even have a few small ramshorn snails that are surviving - they pull WAY into their shell when molested by the loaches, then eventually come back out and go about their business. I put them in as an experiment and/or fishfood (there were TONs in my other tank) and I'm really quite surprised at how many have survived. I don't know if the loaches eat the snail eggs. But, meanwhile, the MTS are multiplying like crazy in with the loaches, as they are livebearers. - PS - Want some more MTS?? I'll mail them. Seriously - they're taking over that tank!

That's so interesting that Ricardo has not had a problem with those catfish. I had two housemates in that apt., and all three of us were fishkeepers. 4 tanks in a tiny apartment, LOL! The other guy was into Cichlids, and he was the one who first implicated the catfish when the smaller fish started disappearing. As soon as the catfish was removed (and put in with the cichlids) the mysterious disappearances stopped. 

Anyhow, reconsider loaches - the Weather Loach is VERY cool - I've wanted one myself, but they do best in larger tanks. I've seen them in display planted tanks, too. I can vouch for the MTS surviving my large and boisterous Yo Yo Loaches.

Also - do you want some Salvinia? I'd be happy to mail you some - I think this floating plant is great, especially in the early stages of a tank setup, as they have very large root systems for their size, and are "hungry" feeders. Plus, they're large enough that if/when you do want to get rid of it, it doesn't "hide" like duckweed.

What sort of gravel did you use over the soil? I can almost see the grains in the pictures, so I'm curious about what the grain size is, and whether you've used that grain size with other planted soil-based tanks.

Its looking really lovely, Whisky! 
-Jane


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Hey Whisky! Its looking GREAT!
> 
> I especially like that picture a few posts back taken from the left, where you dont' get the head-on glare of the lights - its more subdued, and really points to how beautiful this tank will be!


Thanks, I will try to take a few more pics from that angle tonight, that is accually taken from sitting in the recliner (prefered viewing angle).


> Are those huge java ferns on the left? Or are those swords (I can't tell from the pict, and don't have the largest screen in the world) - whatever they are, They're Gorgeous!


Yes they are java ferns, I am trimming out old leaves to let new ones fill in right now, I usually don't have any luck with these plants in low tech tanks but I hope with the dosing of ferts they will do well.


> More about the loaches - I have Yo Yo Loaches in with my Malaysian Trumpet Snails. At the very beginning I put a few in to see if the snails would survive. They are "trapdoor" snails, meaning they have an operculum to close up tight. I found a few empty shells at first, but the snails seem to have "learned" to close up quick, and the loaches are "trained" that its rather futile to go after the MTS, so the population is now growing. I even have a few small ramshorn snails that are surviving - they pull WAY into their shell when molested by the loaches, then eventually come back out and go about their business. I put them in as an experiment and/or fishfood (there were TONs in my other tank) and I'm really quite surprised at how many have survived. I don't know if the loaches eat the snail eggs. But, meanwhile, the MTS are multiplying like crazy in with the loaches, as they are livebearers. - PS - Want some more MTS?? I'll mail them. Seriously - they're taking over that tank!


No, I think I am cool on the MTS







, but I will keep the offer in mind.


> That's so interesting that Ricardo has not had a problem with those catfish. I had two housemates in that apt., and all three of us were fishkeepers. 4 tanks in a tiny apartment, LOL! The other guy was into Cichlids, and he was the one who first implicated the catfish when the smaller fish started disappearing. As soon as the catfish was removed (and put in with the cichlids) the mysterious disappearances stopped.


Good information to have, a larger catfish might go ok with my oscar.



> Anyhow, reconsider loaches - the Weather Loach is VERY cool - I've wanted one myself, but they do best in larger tanks. I've seen them in display planted tanks, too. I can vouch for the MTS surviving my large and boisterous Yo Yo Loaches.


I will try to find a weather loach, somehow I got the idea they were eel like, I don't remember where (perhaps one of your posts?) I would love to have a fish that does not have the "normal" fish shape. If the MTS are safe, then the loaches are ok by me.



> Also - do you want some Salvinia? I'd be happy to mail you some - I think this floating plant is great, especially in the early stages of a tank setup, as they have very large root systems for their size, and are "hungry" feeders. Plus, they're large enough that if/when you do want to get rid of it, it doesn't "hide" like duckweed.


Sounds like a neat plant, but I think if the duckweed keeps dieing then the salvania would not stand a chance either. Thanks for the offer though.



> What sort of gravel did you use over the soil? I can almost see the grains in the pictures, so I'm curious about what the grain size is, and whether you've used that grain size with other planted soil-based tanks.


I have used it before, the grain size is about 3.5 MM, some grains are more like 3 some are more like 4 but still within the 2-4MM range. I have always done well with this stuff, it is sold localy for $0.25 per pound which is a great deal, and it looks kinda natural, which is a plus.


> Its looking really lovely, Whisky!
> -Jane


Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I keep thinking I could get more people to look at my thread if it did not have so many images because they take so long to download if you are on a normal modem. Then I think "If I had not posted all the images this thread would have no point", so I guess it is what it is.

I am getting SO FED UP with light bulbs. I just had ANOTHER one burn out on me. I know you are supposed to replace PC bulbs at 6-9 months, but these are only 7 months old. NOW I am WORRIED, because I lost 2 of my 55K's and one of my 6.7K bulbs, so this thing is now mostly lit by old 10K bulbs I took off my reef tank. IME plants don't do well under 10K light. I don't, and won't have the cash to replace these things for at least a month or two.

Now, a few more pics.




























What do you think? When it grows in do you think it will be AGA quality????

I know, I am no pro, but it might be fun to enter the AGA with it anyway, just to find out what the pro's think.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey




----------



## Jane of Upton

Uh Oh....... have you gotten any feedback against picts? I agree - the picts ARE the point. 

It looks like things are growing in since the early "just planted" picts. 

As to the 10K lights - I've read that the higher the ºK, the less the intensity in the ideal range for plants. Intensity seems to be the general concensus about highest priority. Personally, I like the 5000-6500 ºK range in terms of simulating "daylight" and color temp - at 10K, it does appear more blueish. 

That's a drag about the light bulbs. With that many blowing in a short time, are you sure its not a wiring or electrical issue? Could something be shorting them out? I'm not the most electric-saavy person, but that does seem odd, and unlikely by pure chance. 

Have you checked out light bulb places online? I got some really high-output 6500 spiral CF to replace in my father's reading lamp, making it basically the same as those "eye-strain reducing task light" things that are way overpriced. I bought from lightbulbwarehouse.com, but I wasn't looking for strictly aquarium PC lights. Perhaps get the model number off a blown bulb, and "google" it - I bet you find some alternate sources. 

So it the gravel from an aquarium place, or a sandblasing company? I got some "pool filter" sand recently that looked like it would be a nice light brown color, but once submerged, it appears nearly white, as its silica, and kinda clear.

The rotala (that IS what that is, right?) in the back right corner looks like its taking off nicely. Its really coming along nicely!
-Jane


----------



## Jane of Upton

Oh, and here's a great picture of a weather loach:

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/cyprinid/anguillicaudatus.html

And the Horse-faced loach:
http://loachtank.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=10047&pos=0

Nice closeup of horse faced loach:
http://www.loaches.com/species_images/acantopsis_choirothynchus_02_large.jpg

I know, I know...... after SO much work and effort, you're probably at the point where its hard NOT to do anything with the tank....... I'm a "fiddler" with this sort of stuff....... especially with moving plants around, I gotta just sit on my hands after they're planted, LOL!
-Jane


----------



## Andrea Baker

I'm coming into this very late but doesn't the fact that the filtration is coming from the bottom mean that nutrients are going to be drawn out of the soil?


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Uh Oh....... have you gotten any feedback against picts? I agree - the picts ARE the
> point.


No feedback here, but the time for download has been mentioned by other friends.


> It looks like things are growing in since the early "just planted" picts.


Thanks


> As to the 10K lights - I've read that the higher the ºK, the less the intensity in the ideal range for plants. Intensity seems to be the general concensus about highest priority. Personally, I like the 5000-6500 ºK range in terms of simulating "daylight" and color temp - at 10K, it does appear more blueish.
> 
> That's a drag about the light bulbs. With that many blowing in a short time, are you sure its not a wiring or electrical issue? Could something be shorting them out? I'm not the most electric-saavy person, but that does seem odd, and unlikely by pure chance.


Only one of the bulbs blew out on it's own, the other 2 had "help" I dropped my hood once and broke one, and I had a wire too short and opened the hood and broke another. I guess I put that wrong when I first worded it, I did not want to admit my stupidity.


> Have you checked out light bulb places online? I got some really high-output 6500 spiral CF to replace in my father's reading lamp, making it basically the same as those "eye-strain reducing task light" things that are way overpriced. I bought from lightbulbwarehouse.com, but I wasn't looking for strictly aquarium PC lights. Perhaps get the model number off a blown bulb, and "google" it - I bet you find some alternate sources.


Yes, AH supply has some great priced on light bulbs (18.99 a peice) for my 55W PCs, they also have GREAT custimer service (best I have found) so I like to support them.



> So it the gravel from an aquarium place, or a sandblasing company? I got some "pool filter" sand recently that looked like it would be a nice light brown color, but once submerged, it appears nearly white, as its silica, and kinda clear.


The gravel is from pets inc here in phoenix, it comes in 50LB bags and then they sell it by the pound. I do beleave it is made for aquariam use.


> The rotala (that IS what that is, right?) in the back right corner looks like its taking off nicely. Its really coming along nicely!
> -Jane


That is correct it is rotala indingota (I think) I really like that plant, and it always grows well for me.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Oh, and here's a great picture of a weather loach:
> 
> http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/cyprinid/anguillicaudatus.html
> 
> And the Horse-faced loach:
> http://loachtank.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=10047&pos=0
> 
> Nice closeup of horse faced loach:
> http://www.loaches.com/species_images/acantopsis_choirothynchus_02_large.jpg
> 
> I know, I know...... after SO much work and effort, you're probably at the point where its hard NOT to do anything with the tank....... I'm a "fiddler" with this sort of stuff....... especially with moving plants around, I gotta just sit on my hands after they're planted, LOL!
> -Jane


That is a really cool fish, I don't think I have ever seen one before. That would be quite a "show peice".

I have been trying not to fiddle too much, I want to let it grow, and trim it, especally the anubias plants where I want to trim off some of the leaves with algae on them and let the plants fill in more leaves.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Andrea Baker:
> I'm coming into this very late but doesn't the fact that the filtration is coming from the bottom mean that nutrients are going to be drawn out of the soil?


Normally you would be right, but the filter pulls from the bottom of the overflow box, the water has to flow over the top of the box, then down to the intake of the filter. There is no soil in the overflow.

The drain which is in the main tank has a stand pipe attached to it, so it pulls water from above the substrate. The strainer is hidden by plants so you don't see it anymore.

This must have taken some time to read all at one shot







.

Thanks for joining us,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Suffice it to say I am VERY angry as I type this. I went out to pick up a pizza I ordered, and I found that some PUNK had broken out the drivers side window on my car!!! They did not, or could not take the car, or anything in it, (thank goodness), but the window is very broken. I wonder if they were interrupted by a neighbor and ran? I don’t know why anyone would go to all the trouble for that car anyway, it is 21 year old tercell, and looks like any other 21 year old car.

Luckily my tools were still in the car, beneath the pile of plywood that was still in there from the stand building, thankfully they were well hidden, and nobody could see them. I had just been working on a friends truck last weekend, and still had around $4,000 worth of tools in that car (my whole collection), and I would really be in trouble if they were taken, I have been building this collection for some time.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a real problem, puts off the buying of new lights for a while. Now I have to **TRY** to get out of work tomorrow to go junkyard hopping. I took everything out of the car, and pulled a few fuses, so stealing it will be a lot more difficult now! I went talking to a few people today just milling around the parking lot, and I found one guy who has had someone stealing gas, and found another person who had a battery stolen (this is all in the last 3 weeks), man this place is a crap hole.

By the way, I don’t have full coverage, just liability.

Whiskey


----------



## Avenolpey

I think the tank looks awesome. Where did you get the great variety of plants? That is alot of plants for fill 180 gallon tank. It will be interesting to see what takes.


----------



## flagg

Whiskey: I'm so sorry to hear about your car.







That totally sucks! I'm glad though that you kept your tools at least. That means we get to see more "Whiskey Projects"!! My brother once had his car broken into and they took his case of about 300 CDs.... several thousand dollars worth. He's a musician so he was devastated!

On the bright side, at least you have a beautiful tank to sit and admire and help you contemplate the beauty of life and nature. Or perhaps to meditate on how much you'd like to kick the person's @ss.... You know, same thing...

Oh, one last thing... may your thread make it to 10 pages!

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Avenolpey:
> I think the tank looks awesome. Where did you get the great variety of plants? That is alot of plants for fill 180 gallon tank. It will be interesting to see what takes.


I got all the plants from verious stores, and a couple of friends that keep plants also. Most I bought all of them as a single plant (crypts, black sord ect) and the stem plants came as a bunch. The plants were in a 30, 25, and 50 I tore down (and had let grow out in antisipation of this project) so I had a good number to start off planting this tank.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Whiskey: I'm so sorry to hear about your car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That totally sucks! I'm glad though that you kept your tools at least. That means we get to see more "Whiskey Projects"!! My brother once had his car broken into and they took his case of about 300 CDs.... several thousand dollars worth. He's a musician so he was devastated!


Ya what a nightmare this is, it really makes you wonder if your stuff is safe anywhere. The car was parked literlley feet from apartments, talk about gutts (or stupididty). I think the reason they did not get anything is somebody came out, or walked by and scared them off. Breaking a car window is VERY loud. I think over all I was quite lucky. I will tell you what though, I won't keep anything in my car anymore. That will SUCK next time I break down, but it is the price we have to pay for these bastards that don't have any respect for other's properity.

"Whiskey projects"? It seems almost criminal put that way







.


> On the bright side, at least you have a beautiful tank to sit and admire and help you contemplate the beauty of life and nature. Or perhaps to meditate on how much you'd like to kick the person's @ss.... You know, same thing...


Same thing indeed,.. I talked to the mgt about getting a roving security gard, although she seemed to listen, I think she blew me off.


> Oh, one last thing... may your thread make it to 10 pages!
> 
> -ricardo


Thanks, everyone that posts helps it get there







I want to set a record!!!!

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Were up to 9 now







.
What is the record for post number in a single topic anyway?







?

I did manage to get monday off of work, I went down to a junkyard and picked up a new window to put in, I was lucky to find one. I also found the SR5 model of my car, it has the mirror on the right hand side of the car that my car did not come with. So I bought the mirror two for $10. Great deal, now I have mirrors on both sides, it is almost a Bently!

I was thinking about not parking my car on the property, keeping it at a friends house about a mile away for my new window's sake, but although I could probably use the exersize walking over to get it every time I need to drive, I think carrying anything I bring home a mile to get there would not be pratical.

For now I have it parked next to the managers office, hopefully it will be safer there.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Oh I almost forgot,

Jane: I found some Yo Yo loaches, and some Dogo loaches at a LFS yesterday, but they did not have any books that contained any information about these fish, nor did the employees know anything about them. I could not remember if it was Yo Yo loaches that you said you had with MTS or not, so I did not wind up getting them. Now that I have checked the post again, I will probably go back and pick one or two up. (not sure if they had 2)

I am having a hard time finding weather loaches, but I have not checked everywhere.

Do you have any information on the Dogo loach? Are all loaches perty much the same temperment and habbits, just diffrent looks, or is there one I really need to watch out for?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Whiskey... you found it! The Dojo loach IS the Weather loach. Same fish... See:

http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/wloach.html

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/loaches1/p/weatherloach.htm?terms=weather

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/loaches/dojoloach.html

Oooh, I hope you can get em... they'd look NICE in that tank!

I WANT A 180G!!!









Actually, not really.... I want a 350G!!







It's a good thing my fiance loves our tanks....

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

That is the COOLest fish ever!!!! But I don't think I can have one. Here are some quotes from the info ricardo posted.



> Dojos are among the must undemanding loaches and can thrive in a wide range of water parameters. Softer and slightly acidic water is generally preferred. They need rounded gravel or sand to root in and bury themselves in. They do not require a heater in their tank, and are often paired with goldfish, but they will also do very well in cooler tropical tanks of up to 75 or 76 degrees. Higher temperatures are tolerated for short periods of time, but will significantly shorten the fish's life.


My tank runs right now at about 81, during the summer I immagine that will be 86 maybe higher.



> They are out and about most of the time, often draped across plants, standing on their tails in the corner of the tank, or twining around rocks and plants. Do not count on a beautifully planted tank with dojos. They are active redecorators, rooting up even the largest plants and tipping over rocks and wood like bulldozers with fins. Even my plastic plants end up floating on the surface.


This sounds like it would be like trying to keep plants with my Oscar. I can't have a fish ripping up plants.



> This burrowing habit is a favorite pastime, and it's not unusual for an owner to think the fish has disappeared only to discover the loach burrowed beneath the substrate.


For odvious reasons,...

This sucks!!!! I would really like a fish that could keep me out of the rain on my motorcycle.

The YoYo loaches are still a possibility though,...

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Whiskey... you found it! The Dojo loach IS the Weather loach. Same fish... See:
> 
> http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/wloach.html
> 
> http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/loaches1/p/weatherloach.htm?terms=weather
> 
> http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/loaches/dojoloach.html
> 
> Oooh, I hope you can get em... they'd look NICE in that tank!
> 
> I WANT A 180G!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, not really.... I want a 350G!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a good thing my fiance loves our tanks....
> 
> -ricardo


Why stop at 350? Go for a nice even number, like 1000 Gallons, or maybe 10,000







.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

Whiskey, I have had a Weather/Dojo Loach for the past 10 years, and he does not cause many plant problems. I have to make sure to plant stem plants nice and deep, but other than that he leaves the plants alone once they have taken root. The tank he is in is too small for him so over the past few years there have been some problems with plant stems breaking as he swims past, but nothing major. 

In my experience Weather/Dojo Loaches don't burrow under the substrate unless they are feeling insecure due to lack of hiding places. 

What a pity your tank is too warm for these fascinating coldwater fish! 

From Alex.


----------



## flagg

> quote:
> Oh, one last thing... may your thread make it to 10 pages!
> 
> -ricardo
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, everyone that posts helps it get there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to set a record!!!!
> 
> Whiskey
Click to expand...

Whiskey: I just went through all 13 pages of the "el natural form" that I could scroll through and the only post that comes remotely close to being as long as yours is Betty's 125 goldfish post

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/...6048124/m/2771066231

So, unless Robert H can confirm otherwise, I think your thread is the largest, even in terms of # of "views", replys and pages....

Hooray for Whiskey...

On a totally diff. topic, I think I'm gonna build a stand for my 10 gal thanks to your inspiration. I'd build a stand for a large tank like yours, but, well, I don't have a big tank...









-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Whiskey, I have had a Weather/Dojo Loach for the past 10 years, and he does not cause many plant problems. I have to make sure to plant stem plants nice and deep, but other than that he leaves the plants alone once they have taken root. The tank he is in is too small for him so over the past few years there have been some problems with plant stems breaking as he swims past, but nothing major.
> 
> In my experience Weather/Dojo Loaches don't burrow under the substrate unless they are feeling insecure due to lack of hiding places.
> 
> What a pity your tank is too warm for these fascinating coldwater fish!
> 
> From Alex.


It is too warm for sure, it will be intresting to see how hot it will get come summer, and 120 deg temps.

I would be worried about it eventually tearing the tank up too, IME not all fish of the same speices have the same temprament.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ricardo V.:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:
> Oh, one last thing... may your thread make it to 10 pages!
> 
> -ricardo
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, everyone that posts helps it get there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to set a record!!!!
> 
> Whiskey
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whiskey: I just went through all 13 pages of the "el natural form" that I could scroll through and the only post that comes remotely close to being as long as yours is Betty's 125 goldfish post
> 
> http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/...6048124/m/2771066231
> 
> So, unless Robert H can confirm otherwise, I think your thread is the largest, even in terms of # of "views", replys and pages....
> 
> Hooray for Whiskey...
Click to expand...

SWEET, so is it a record yet? Or do we need the conformation? First this fourm,... then the WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!



> On a totally diff. topic, I think I'm gonna build a stand for my 10 gal thanks to your inspiration. I'd build a stand for a large tank like yours, but, well, I don't have a big tank...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -ricardo


Nice, I would like to see how it turns out. You may want to consider making that stand for a 15 though, because then the 20, and 25 tall both have the same footprint, plants grow fast.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Last weekend I trimed a whole bunch of plants, some things are starting to fill out while others are lagging behind.

I ended up adding a duel 40W strip light to supplement the current PC lights, I am thinking about adding a duel 20W to the other end too. I think I need the extra light. I really need to rewire the hood, and bolt the new lights up so I am able to lift the lid with the lights again.

I will take some new pictures later this weekend, so don't go to far







.

Thanks all,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Whiskey: Where you been? Must... have..... up.... date......









-ricardo


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whiskey!

I was very sorry to hear about your car window. But.... thank goodness they didn't touch your tools! I know what a HUGE investement that is! 

Hmmmm, I'd seen the weather loaches in a heavily planted tank at an LFS I used to go to constantly - they didn't seem to bother the plants either, but I have no idea what temperature they kept that tank at. 

The Yo Yo loaches are pretty cool. I have mine in a tank I keep heated to 75, and which was typically 78-80 during the summer, sometimes getting up to 84. They seemed fine. Also, I've never seen a Yo Yo loach looking its best in a store. They're usually skinny, with an indentation running the length of their body (like the muscle lines one can get along ones legs.... back in the days of working out). Anyhow, I feed my loaches plenty, and they're like a different creature than the ones in the stores. Well fed, they're robust, and pretty comical in their behavior. I started with 3, but one either had parasites or an intestinal blockage (swollen abdomen), and never fully recovered, dying a few weeks later. The other two are very healthy, and play "chase" all around the tank. I've made sure its not always the same one being "dominant", and its not, so I'm pretty sure its a game and not just relentless agression. They also "sleep" together - lined up together when they're very quiet in the late mornings. Kinda cute. Most of my MTS are OK in that tank, and some of the red ramshorn snails are still around. They're not bullies - they haven't been a problem with the other fish, but they do enjoy pushing them around. I honestly think they enjoy "goosing" the Angel fish - they'll come up from underneath and mouth their bottom ventral fin, causing them to "jump" and look around. There is never any damage on the fins, and I know fish don't really have a sense of humor, but I think it is somehow entertaining to the Yo Yo's, LOL! They also seem to like to "break up" the show when the Gardneri killies (who can be very feisty in their own right) are displaying to one another. The loaches come in, swimming in a waggling way mid-water, barbels extended, and the killies scatter. I really can't find any reason for them to do this - no food, no contact, etc, other than amusement. Go Figure.

Anyhow, it sounds like your plants are growing in nicely. And I'll be watching for Ricardo's 10 or 15 gal stand setup!
-Jane


A friend just got "Queen Loaches". Very nice looking - dark bronze with vertical yellowish bands. I've read that they're more peaceful to other fish, but more persistant about eating snails. She now has ZERO snails left.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ricardo V.:
> Whiskey: Where you been? Must... have..... up.... date......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -ricardo


Sorry for the lack of replys, my video card burned up and I was unable to use my computer. For some reason my work will not let me get on this fourm (on their computers), I don't know why but it has to do with network security,....

I was doing this thread in 2 fourms, this one and plantgeek. I am going to let it die in plantgeek, because nobody cares, it is nice to see people care here. I was going to post new pics tonight but after my water change the water is really cloudy, so you will have to wait another day. This tank needs serious trimming but I will hold off until I can get pictures of how it is now for you'all.

Sorry,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Hey Whiskey!
> 
> I was very sorry to hear about your car window. But.... thank goodness they didn't touch your tools! I know what a HUGE investement that is!
> 
> Hmmmm, I'd seen the weather loaches in a heavily planted tank at an LFS I used to go to constantly - they didn't seem to bother the plants either, but I have no idea what temperature they kept that tank at.
> 
> The Yo Yo loaches are pretty cool. I have mine in a tank I keep heated to 75, and which was typically 78-80 during the summer, sometimes getting up to 84. They seemed fine. Also, I've never seen a Yo Yo loach looking its best in a store. They're usually skinny, with an indentation running the length of their body (like the muscle lines one can get along ones legs.... back in the days of working out). Anyhow, I feed my loaches plenty, and they're like a different creature than the ones in the stores. Well fed, they're robust, and pretty comical in their behavior. I started with 3, but one either had parasites or an intestinal blockage (swollen abdomen), and never fully recovered, dying a few weeks later. The other two are very healthy, and play "chase" all around the tank. I've made sure its not always the same one being "dominant", and its not, so I'm pretty sure its a game and not just relentless agression. They also "sleep" together - lined up together when they're very quiet in the late mornings. Kinda cute. Most of my MTS are OK in that tank, and some of the red ramshorn snails are still around. They're not bullies - they haven't been a problem with the other fish, but they do enjoy pushing them around. I honestly think they enjoy "goosing" the Angel fish - they'll come up from underneath and mouth their bottom ventral fin, causing them to "jump" and look around. There is never any damage on the fins, and I know fish don't really have a sense of humor, but I think it is somehow entertaining to the Yo Yo's, LOL! They also seem to like to "break up" the show when the Gardneri killies (who can be very feisty in their own right) are displaying to one another. The loaches come in, swimming in a waggling way mid-water, barbels extended, and the killies scatter. I really can't find any reason for them to do this - no food, no contact, etc, other than amusement. Go Figure.
> 
> Anyhow, it sounds like your plants are growing in nicely. And I'll be watching for Ricardo's 10 or 15 gal stand setup!
> -Jane
> 
> A friend just got "Queen Loaches". Very nice looking - dark bronze with vertical yellowish bands. I've read that they're more peaceful to other fish, but more persistant about eating snails. She now has ZERO snails left.


Thanks for the info, but due to the problems with my computer, and the problems with the car, I have not had any money for fish (stupid prioiteas). One of these days I will have the money to stock this tank up a bit,...

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

To hold you over, here is a quick pic from my oscar tank (125 gallon)

















Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

That's a big goldfish in a Background - its a background PICTURE though, isn't it? It took me a moment to figure that out - something looked odd, but I couldn't put my finger on just WHAT for several seconds. 

NICE looking oscar!
-Jane

PS - I'm more than familiar with the situation of one's desire for aquarium stuff far exceeding one's actual budget for aquarium stuff. 

Is there any good LFS in your area that might take some of your plant cuttings in trade (once you've filled an spots in your own aquarium that you want to). I used to do that, and if there was an expensive fish I really wanted, I'd rack up "credits" for several rounds of plant thinning, but then finally was able to get it.


----------



## whiskey

You are correct, the background is a picture. The koi however is not a picture it is really in the tank, some kid in my complex had it in a 10 gallon tank with 4 others and they wern't doing well so he gave this one to me. The java ferns are real, so are the plastic plants and fish.

I still don't have a picture for you







I have been buisy, but I hope to get one tonight.

Sorry, 
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Btw, we made it to 10 pages







.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, I finally got off my hump and got some more pics for you. As you can see this tank is in desperate need of a trim, and I plan to do that this weekend, I wanted to post pics of what it looks like before though.














































Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Whiskey: Your tank is looking fabulous! Thanks for sharing!

-ricardo


----------



## Christian Hansen

Fantastic ! Really healthy looking. Well done


----------



## dwalstad

Whiskey,

It was a great pleasure to see your pictures this morning.

This is the way to start an El Naturale tank. Lots of plants (including emergent plants), lots of plant species, good lighting, and a soil layer that doesn't look too deep.

Excellent!


----------



## krazy

Gee, I hope my tank looks like that when it grows up.

Really nice job. Thanks for sharing

Happy Holidays
Krazy


----------



## Mr Fishies

Wow. This thread in three links:

(I have to edit this...two links was not enough)

Raw Materials
Tank On Stand 
Kudos 01/06?

Thanks for sharing all your hard work.

Nicely done. You can take the rest of the year off!


----------



## Jane of Upton

Wow, Whisky, its looking WONDERFUL! Personally, I like the "slightly wild" look of pre-trimming, LOL! 

And I'm glad that IS a real Koi - it looks great, what lovely fins! I kept thinking it looked SO real, but then I couldn't figure out the depth perception with that pict in the back - the Koi must have been right up against the glass. He's doing well in there - the Cichlids must not give him any trouble, because his fins are in great shape. See, I thought it was a "model" poster-worthy koi ! Your Oscar looks very happy and robust too! Very handsome fellow!

Gosh, your 125-gal is really looking great. So lush, so healthy. Its a lovely sight! Thanks for sharing your picts!
-Jane


----------



## Dave P

I'm just speechless...this is nothing less than a stunning piece of art.

Many thanks to you, Whiskey, for taking the time and energy to capture all of this in words and pictures.

Season's Greetings!

Dave


----------



## whiskey

Wow, thanks for the complements all.



> Kudos 01/06?


You gunning for updated pics Fishies?

Diana:
The soil and the gravel are 1 inch, (Per your book), you saved me a fortuine in florite, and soil seems to work better anyway







.

Florite costs a little more than $30 per bag, I would have needed 18 bags ($540). I spent about $50 on all the soil and gravel!! Who says books aren't worth their weight in gold? That does not even take into account the alopathy chapter.

Jane:
The Oscar does chase the Koi a bit, but nothing too bad. The kid I got that fish from had that 14-16 (too fast to measure properly) inch Koi, 2 12 inch Koi and one 8 inch goldfish in a 10 gallon tank. I took the one butterfly Koi off his hands, gave the other 2 to a friend with a outdoor pond, and he still has the goldfish in the tank. His mom is a neat freak though and because the tank does not stay clean with that big fish in there I think I will end up with it too soon.

If the Oscar beats up my Koi too much he will go to the pond too, but I hope they do ok.

That Oscar has ended up taking a 5 foot fall to the kichen floor a couple of times too (jumpy sucker) they heal up nice







(poor guy). I now keep phone books on the glass tops.

I went on vacation to WA for the holidays, and left a neighbor in charge of the tanks. It was nerveracking because he does not/never has had fish, but everthing turned out just fine. I was most worried about the high tech SPS saltwater reef (bb highflow wet skimming ect,..).

I did not get a chance to trim the tank before I left, and by the time I came back it was a JUNGLE!!!!!!!!!!! I mean my fish sitter was using long tweezers to get the food through the plants so the fish could get to it. The bottom of the tank was BLACK even with the lights on, and the plants had growen out of the water all the way to the top of the hood. I tried to take a picture, but all that came out was the top 2 inches. I did some serious trimming, and through out a FULL trash can of plants, and it was not a small can.

So if you live in phoenix let me know, next time I trim, you could go home with about a full 50 gallon tank worth of free plants. If you need the 50 gallon tank, I have one of those too







(that I am selling though).

Thanks all for the great comlements!!!
Whiskey


----------



## Mr Fishies

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Wow, thanks for the complements all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quote:
> Kudos 01/06?
> 
> 
> 
> You gunning for updated pics Fishies?
Click to expand...

Naw...nothing so bold. Merely making a sly recommendation to the "panel of judges" who select the Monthly Kudos tank.


----------



## whiskey

ahh I see that would be quite an honor. I won't have updated pics for a week or so anyway, it looks a little ratty after the trim. 

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Well, ratty or not I got more pics.



























Remember, I just did a major trim though.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Oh, another update, I was in a LFS looking around and I saw they had tiger barbs on sale for 0.99 each, so I bought 30 of them.







I can hardly tell I added any







.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

OOH page 11!!!!!!!!!!!!!































































Whiskey


----------



## spiral

That is one very fine looking tank.


----------



## Shariukas

Well, what can i say Whiskey, well done! Both, aquarium, and step by step updating with photos.


----------



## Inquisitive

question

do you quarantine prior to added new fish to your tank?
if so, what are your methods?


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Inquisitive:
> question
> 
> do you quarantine prior to added new fish to your tank?
> if so, what are your methods?


Well that is a very timely placed question. I never Q for anything but SW, because of the cost of those fish, but now I think I may have shot myself in the foot because of this practice.

As you know, I just added 30 tiger barbs to my tank, I lost 2, but that is nothing out of the ordinary when buying 30 fish, at least around here. But since adding those fish I lost 2 mollies (babies about 5 months ago), now I have one old tiger barb swimming upside down (I have had this one at least 1.5 years). Swim blatter problem?

Suffice it to say I am worried, I will observe the fish closely over the next few days. I don't know how the mollies died (saw no unusual behavure), sometimes the baby molies and guppies die, but as a hole their population seems to increace so this never worries me, but the barbs almost never die.

Thanks for the complaments, suggestions welcome,
Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whiskey,

sorry to hear about the barbs dying. I hope its just old age, not anything brought in. 

The tank looks great!

What a shame about throwing away your plant trimmings!!! Is there a local Aquarium Society? A LFS you could swap them to for Store Credit? You might even put them on Aquabid or Craigslist? It just seems like a shame to toss them. 

I used to trade my plant trimmings (from a very small tank) to a LFS for credit. Store credit came in very handy!

Its looking very lush and nice!
-Jane


----------



## flagg

Whiskey: Tank looks great man! How many barbs does that give you, something like 40? I can only count 7 for sure in the bottom pic!

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

OK before I even ask this, I am going to state that this is a *SERIOUS* question.

*Have you ever seen your fish fart?*

I did, the tiger barb that was swimming upside down pooed, and there were large bubbles in it, the poo floated to the top of the tank, and some bubles not otherwise contined followed suit. (I did not attempt to smell it. :lol: )

My only explanation is that my tigers tend to be agressave eaters, some have made it right out of the tank at feeding time due to this behavure, and I wonder if it swallowed too much air. I have been feeding 3 times a day lately, because of the babies (V.S. my regular 1 time per day) and it may have been too much air.

I am not sure if that is possible, the fart did not immediatally make him swim perfectally again, but more upright and easer. I suspect he farted again while I was sleeping,because all 9 of the origanal tigerbarbs (siginifigantally biger than any I just bought by about 3-4 times) are accounted for and doing fine today.

I am VERY happy that my barbs are better, and I will cut back on the feeding butI wonder if there are less gassy foods? maybe sinking food?

I need to stop typing, so I can stop laughing, it is very difficault to talk about fishy-gas in a serious tone. I fear this will soon degrade into a series of bad puns, and 1st grade fart jokes.







Not like I would mind,... but some might. Feel free to add your best G rated jokes, because alas not many of mine are G rated.

Who knowes?
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Hey Whiskey,
> 
> sorry to hear about the barbs dying. I hope its just old age, not anything brought in.
> 
> The tank looks great!
> 
> What a shame about throwing away your plant trimmings!!! Is there a local Aquarium Society? A LFS you could swap them to for Store Credit? You might even put them on Aquabid or Craigslist? It just seems like a shame to toss them.
> 
> I used to trade my plant trimmings (from a very small tank) to a LFS for credit. Store credit came in very handy!
> 
> Its looking very lush and nice!
> -Jane


See previous post about fish death, I think I gave a premature dignosis. (Big fart no cheif) I trust everyone knowes the begining of that joke. Darn, I said I wouldn't do that,...

I have been throwing out plant trimings for years, I could ask a couple of the LFS's but I doubt they would care. I am happy to give away any I have to anyone that comes by, but I don't like selling things, and I don't like shipping things. I really don't like dealing with online auctions.

Origanally I thought it was a crying shame, but I got over it.

Thanks for the suggestions,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ricardo V.:
> Whiskey: Tank looks great man! How many barbs does that give you, something like 40? I can only count 7 for sure in the bottom pic!
> 
> -ricardo


Thanks, including the 9 from before, and the 2 I lost, I have 37 in there. It sounds like alot, but like you said,


> I can only count 7 for sure in the bottom pic!


Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whiskey,

I'm glad the established tiger barb is better! 

Yeah, I know what you mean about not wanting to go through the hassle - but it does seem too bad to chuck all those cuttings. 

I've seen fish poop with bubbles in it....... not for awhile, but I DO recall having seen that. I think your gulping air theory is more likely than any gas-producing foods. If fish DID get gassy, wouldn't this be a frequent problem for them? Look at how it affected your tiger barb. If this were a common problem, there'd be a lot of fish "swimmin funny", LOL! Perhaps some sinking foods. I recently got Marineland Bio-blend Tropical, and my fish seem to really like it. They're little pellets, which slowly sink. 

Of course, I'm still snickering about the fish fart, and your speculation that he passed the rest of it while you slept - What? It didn't Wake You Up? 

Hee, hee

-Jane


----------



## Shariukas

Hi all.

I once bought some frozen bloodworms, and something was bad with'em. After i fed some of it to my fish, few hours later some swordtails were swimming at the surface, and they could not dive deeper than 10cm no matter how hard they tried. After a while, poop with bubbles, and everything was back to normal. At first I didn't suspect something was bad with those bloodworms, but after feeding them again, the story repeated. I bought a new pack of bloodworms, and everything was fine.


----------



## DataGuru

Yea, I'm pretty sure fish can get gas in their GI tract from either gulping air, or from certain types of starches in foods. We see it in fancy goldfish all the time.


----------



## Miss Fishy

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> 
> *Have you ever seen your fish fart?*
> 
> Whiskey


My Weather Loach does regularly! Usually it's when he's just been near the surface looking for food and sucking up air in the process. Because he is large the bubbles make quite a noise as they go up through the water and pop at the surface!









From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Hey Whiskey,
> 
> I'm glad the established tiger barb is better!


Me to, I was very worried that my whole tank might be infected with something. If I find another cheap (used) 40W emperor aquatics sterilizer I will put one on this tank too. I see 9W ones running around from time to time, but I don't think they would do any good on a 180.


> Yeah, I know what you mean about not wanting to go through the hassle - but it does seem too bad to chuck all those cuttings.


You never have? These plants grow so fast I could be the only supplier for all the LFS's in phoenix







.


> I've seen fish poop with bubbles in it....... not for awhile, but I DO recall having seen that. I think your gulping air theory is more likely than any gas-producing foods. If fish DID get gassy, wouldn't this be a frequent problem for them? Look at how it affected your tiger barb. If this were a common problem, there'd be a lot of fish "swimmin funny", LOL! Perhaps some sinking foods. I recently got Marineland Bio-blend Tropical, and my fish seem to really like it. They're little pellets, which slowly sink.


I have some of that Bio-blend tropical too, the barbs LOVE it, but many of the smaller fish can't eat it because of the size of the pellets. This whole thing is new on me, I see my fish belch all the time, but fart?!?! I went back to feeding once per day and everyone seems to be doing fine, but I need to spend some time in an LFS looking for a good small pellet sinking food.



> Of course, I'm still snickering about the fish fart, and your speculation that he passed the rest of it while you slept - What? It didn't Wake You Up?
> 
> Hee, hee
> 
> -Jane


I am a heavy sleeper







, what is it about a good fart that always seems to be funny? Most other things get old, but not that. (I am imature and loving it







.)

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Shariukas:
> Hi all.
> 
> I once bought some frozen bloodworms, and something was bad with'em. After i fed some of it to my fish, few hours later some swordtails were swimming at the surface, and they could not dive deeper than 10cm no matter how hard they tried. After a while, poop with bubbles, and everything was back to normal. At first I didn't suspect something was bad with those bloodworms, but after feeding them again, the story repeated. I bought a new pack of bloodworms, and everything was fine.


That is an intresting take on the matter, you know every time I feed ALL of my neon tetras always have a hard time diving, but they have been doing it for years. I never noticed the farting from them, but I wonder if the same thing is going on?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> Yea, I'm pretty sure fish can get gas in their GI tract from either gulping air, or from certain types of starches in foods. We see it in fancy goldfish all the time.


Interesting, I have never kept goldfish, what do you do to solve it in them? Do goldfish eat like koi, not from the water colum or surface, just wait till it drops and go through the substrate?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> 
> *Have you ever seen your fish fart?*
> 
> Whiskey





> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> My Weather Loach does regularly! Usually it's when he's just been near the surface looking for food and sucking up air in the process. Because he is large the bubbles make quite a noise as they go up through the water and pop at the surface!


I *NEED* that fish you can accually hear it? :lol: How big is the fish? I imagine that is endless entertainment. I wonder if I could train my Oscar to do that?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

12 pages,..









Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Wow, Betty - I never realized that its a regular problem with Goldfish. Is it the starches they normally wouldn't encounter (heavily processed)? I wonder what I did to the poor Cherry Shrimp that time I tried them out on a garbanzo bean? One really liked it..... I wonder if the others made him get his own leaf to sleep on that night, LOL!

Geez, Whiskey - you're sounding like you and the Weather Loach are just a matter of destiny, eh? 

My Yo Yo loaches are always grubbing around at the surface, looking for any food that fell on a floating plant leaf, etc. They make really loud smacky noises, but I've never noticed any aftermath from gulping in air. 

Oh, and Whiskey - I recently got the small pellet from Hikari for the smaller guys, and everyone went bonkers for it. You're right, the Bio-Blend ones are too big for the smaller fishes to eat. 

-Jane


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> I wonder what I did to the poor Cherry Shrimp that time I tried them out on a garbanzo bean? One really liked it..... I wonder if the others made him get his own leaf to sleep on that night, LOL!


ROTFLMAO, poor shrimp,...



> Geez, Whiskey - you're sounding like you and the Weather Loach are just a matter of destiny, eh?


Are you spying on me? Destiny is the right word for sure!!!!!

I went to the LFS today and they had a tank with about 10 loaches in a tank labled DOJO loach. I remembered I could not have the Weather Loach because of some of it's bad habbits (and that I was upset about it), but there was another loach I could have, I did not remember the name, but Dojo rang a bell so I bought 3. Dojo is another name for Weather,.... DOH!!!!!!!!!!! Now I am worried, I have no idea how I would get them out if they cause trouble, so I hope they don't, and do ok in the higher tempratures of my tank (80F). I feel so stupid,...


> My Yo Yo loaches are always grubbing around at the surface, looking for any food that fell on a floating plant leaf, etc. They make really loud smacky noises, but I've never noticed any aftermath from gulping in air.


I wonder if mine will do that, but I would rather have them fart







.


> Oh, and Whiskey - I recently got the small pellet from Hikari for the smaller guys, and everyone went bonkers for it. You're right, the Bio-Blend ones are too big for the smaller fishes to eat.
> 
> -Jane


I will look into that.




























I love the personality reports of this fish, I just hope they don't cause problems, and I hope the heat does not cause them problems.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

Cute Loaches, Whiskey! You may be waiting a long time for them to start farting - mine only started when he got to about 5 inches long and was big enough to suck up large ammounts of air! 

Weather Loaches are easy to tame and will even sit in your hand under the water. If you regularly give them treats of live worms they will come rushing up to the surface as soon as your fingers go into the tank, making them easy to catch if you ever need to. Just don't try chasing them around with a single net. By the time you do manage to get them your tank will certainly not be entering any aquascaping contests! 

If they don't like the heat in your tank, you could consider keeping them in an unheated tank for half the year, sort of like an artificial summer/winter. 

From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Cute Loaches, Whiskey!


Thanks


> You may be waiting a long time for them to start farting - mine only started when he got to about 5 inches long and was big enough to suck up large ammounts of air!


Ahh yes, but I think it will be worth the wait







.


> Weather Loaches are easy to tame and will even sit in your hand under the water. If you regularly give them treats of live worms they will come rushing up to the surface as soon as your fingers go into the tank, making them easy to catch if you ever need to. Just don't try chasing them around with a single net. By the time you do manage to get them your tank will certainly not be entering any aquascaping contests!


Are you telling me I should go buy worms (like nitecrawlers used for fishing?) and hand feed the loaches? Just put the worm under the surface and hold it there waiting for them to come out? Do I do this at night, or while the lights are on? If it is easy to get these fish out, then I would be a lot less worried about them. I used to do this with my Oscar, until he got a little bigger, and less acurite with his mouth, but he still rubbs up agenst me when cleaning the tank.



> If they don't like the heat in your tank, you could consider keeping them in an unheated tank for half the year, sort of like an artificial summer/winter.
> 
> From Alex.


If they are easy to catch this would be possible, but I would rather not, I would like to enjoy them in the 180. I am kindof glad I got these fish, but kindof not, I love the storys about them, and how personable they are, but I am worried about all the reports of burowing, moving wood, and uprooting plants. Like trying to keep the oscar in my planted tank.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Erin

I have dojos & kuhli loaches in my heavily planted el natural tanks. I love them, so far they have only uprooted delicate stuff like glosso. My ultimate fav behavior is laying like they are dead, mine drape themselves in the plants, sometimes limp as spagetti sometimes stiff as boards. They LOVE to eat! 

Regards,
Erin


----------



## Miss Fishy

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Are you telling me I should go buy worms (like nitecrawlers used for fishing?) and hand feed the loaches? Just put the worm under the surface and hold it there waiting for them to come out? Do I do this at night, or while the lights are on?


I was thinking of live Tubifex worms, Blackworms or chopped up Earthworms. Put some in a fish feeder (the cone shaped ones) and wait for the Loaches to smell them and come out. Loaches like worms so much that they will often come out during the day, even if they usually sleep until dark. They will soon learn to come up to the surface to get the worms out of the fish feeder. When they will come up to the surface while you are near the tank without being afraid, you can put some worms on your finger instead of in the fish feeder, and voila! Tame fish! Then it's only a matter of time before they will sit in your hand and follow it around the tank.



> I used to do this with my Oscar, until he got a little bigger, and less acurite with his mouth, but he still rubbs up agenst me when cleaning the tank.










I had some Koi who used to snack on my fingers when they had finished dinner. It was painful.

From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> I have dojos & kuhli loaches in my heavily planted el natural tanks. I love them, so far they have only uprooted delicate stuff like glosso.


My cherry barbs pull out a peice of glosso, chase it to the top, then turn around and pull up another plantlet. This is why I don't have glosso, it is good to hear you too are able to keep a sucessful planted tank with these fish, I am still worried of course, but I guess only time will cure that.

The other thing I was worried about is burroring, do yours dig down to your soil ever?


> My ultimate fav behavior is laying like they are dead, mine drape themselves in the plants, sometimes limp as spagetti sometimes stiff as boards. They LOVE to eat!
> 
> Regards,
> Erin


I have already seen one of mine doing that once, It is cool, my CAE does that to some extent as well.

How big are your loaches, and how long have you had them? How quick did they grow?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> I was thinking of live Tubifex worms, Blackworms or chopped up Earthworms.


Live, not frozen? Where do you go to get something like this live? How do you store it?


> Put some in a fish feeder (the cone shaped ones) and wait for the Loaches to smell them and come out. Loaches like worms so much that they will often come out during the day, even if they usually sleep until dark. They will soon learn to come up to the surface to get the worms out of the fish feeder. When they will come up to the surface while you are near the tank without being afraid, you can put some worms on your finger instead of in the fish feeder, and voila! Tame fish! Then it's only a matter of time before they will sit in your hand and follow it around the tank.


Could you give me a better discription of this cone shaped feeder? I don't know what you are refering to. This is something I definitally want to do, I hope it works out for me.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I am up late tonight hoping to see my new loaches, the tanks lights just shut off (12:45 it used to be 12:00 I don't know what happened) and I have some shrimp pellets that loaches are supposed to like, I bought them some time ago because I like to see my tigers fight over them. They are packed really hard, and take forever to desolve, so maybe I can lure the loaches out.

I still have not mounted my lightig properly or added my 3, 4W DIY moonlights, these new fish may be insentive enough to do that. I need to get a freind over to remove the hood though, I don't want to break any plumming.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Erin

> The other thing I was worried about is burroring, do yours dig down to your soil ever?


I can't remember what size gravel you are using but from the pictures it doesn't look much smaller than mine (black eco-complete) and I haven't had a single bit of trouble with them burrowing or rooting around down to the soil. However, folks with sand seem to have that happen more often. Seems they like sand, but I haven't had any trouble since they have so many plants to play around in.



> How big are your loaches, and how long have you had them? How quick did they grow?


I have had my loaches about 6 months now. The Gold Dojo I picked up as an itty bitty baby he/she was less than 2 inches long and about as big around as a 120 cigarette. He/She is now well over 3 inches long and as big around as a sharpie pen. My other loach is a black kuhli loach and he/she was a rescue from a crab/crayfish tank and was about an inch and a half and beat all to hell. He/she was more white and covered in gouges and scratches







from the crayfish than the dark grey that he is now. He was about the diameter of a wood skewer when I got him. He is also sitting at about 3 inches long and is a little bigger around than a standard bic pen.

On a side note, I don't have any trouble with their barbles being rubbed or broken off from the rough substrate, nor do they seem to have any body damage from slithering around on the bottom.

If you have snails that you are partial to I would suggest moving them to another tank. My loaches don't do the whole "search and destroy" method but I find more and more empty ram shells daily. Good for me because it keeps the population in check







.

I keep mine at room temp which ranges from 68 to 75 degrees, had a heater go bad in their tank, went up to 95







, chilled them back down slowly and haven't had any problems with them. So they are pretty hardy when it comes to temp they just prefer cooler water.

Hope this helps!
Erin


----------



## Erin

Here is a worm feeder that I like to use, it even gets my super shy plecos out during feeding time. I'm evil, I put it as far away from thier little cubby holes as I can.









Regards, 
Erin


----------



## Miss Fishy

Whiskey, you can buy live Tubifex worms or Blackworms from your LFS or by mail-order. If you have a garden you could look for some earthworms. I hear fish love eating them, but I wouldn't like to chop them up so my fish have never tasted them. 

The fish feeder Erin posted a picture of is exactly the sort I was talking about. 

My Weather Loach is about 8 inches long now. He is 11 years old, and very fat! When I acquired him he was about 2 inches long. I don't remember how quickly he grew at first, but he is still growing. I really must get on with setting up my 132 gallon tank for him. 

Erin, do you keep your Dojo Loach with your Kuhli Loach? How do they get on? 

From Alex.


----------



## imported_Winzzy

> I need to get a freind over to remove the hood though, I don't want to break any plumming.


I can help you remove it today if we end up connecting.. I am also excited to see your new corals from frag.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> Here is a worm feeder that I like to use, it even gets my super shy plecos out during feeding time. I'm evil, I put it as far away from thier little cubby holes as I can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Erin


Cool, the pictue is great, I will look for one of those feeders at my lfs.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Whiskey, you can buy live Tubifex worms or Blackworms from your LFS or by mail-order. If you have a garden you could look for some earthworms. I hear fish love eating them, but I wouldn't like to chop them up so my fish have never tasted them.


I will ask at my LFS, I know they have frozen ones, but I don't think they have ones that are live and crawling around. I live in an apt, no garden, but I am sure I can go to a fish bait place and get regular worms.


> The fish feeder Erin posted a picture of is exactly the sort I was talking about.
> 
> My Weather Loach is about 8 inches long now. He is 11 years old, and very fat! When I acquired him he was about 2 inches long. I don't remember how quickly he grew at first, but he is still growing. I really must get on with setting up my 132 gallon tank for him.
> 
> Erin, do you keep your Dojo Loach with your Kuhli Loach? How do they get on?
> 
> From Alex.


So it took 11 years to get from 2 inches to 8 inches. I don't have to worry about him getting to big to fast then, that is one big fish though, how big is your tank?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by The Winzman:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:I need to get a freind over to remove the hood though, I don't want to break any plumming.
> 
> 
> 
> I can help you remove it today if we end up connecting.. I am also excited to see your new corals from frag.
Click to expand...

Ok, that will work, I just need to make sure I pick up 2 2*4's and some power wire to hook up my moon lighting.



> <"}}><
> "Fish are friends!"


Not Food!

Whiskey


----------



## Erin

> Erin, do you keep your Dojo Loach with your Kuhli Loach? How do they get on?


Alex,

I do keep the two together and for now they get along great, they frolic all over the tank together. I will have to see how things go as the dojo gets bigger & older. When I bought the black kuhli I had actually purchased 2 but one jumped the net during acclimation and went right down the drain. I was heartbroken but there wasn't anything I could do but not pour over the sink any longer. Now I use a bucket









Regards,
Erin


----------



## whiskey

I almost lost a fish down the drain that way, now I use a HUGE net to avoid that.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Here is an intresting idea, I may be able to setup a 0.5-1 gallon tank at work. The room I work in is probably 30 feet by 20 feet. It is lit by 960W of NO soft white floressents. The tank I am thinking about getting comes with a 7W PC bulb.

Do you think I could grow some low light plants with the comination of the room lighting and my 7W bulb? 

For fish I was thinking about a beta, I have never had one, but they are really neat fish, and rather low matinence.

This tank would be setup true to the book, although I may have to go with 1/2 inch soil 1/2 inch gravel due to tank size.

Advice appreatiated,
Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Erin

I say YES and it is tons of fun. I did that with a 1g hex and used all kinds of different "easy" plants, put in black worms, red rams and mts. Had this going for over six months gave it to my niece and now she is happily keeping her betta in a 1g jungle she has to trim just so he has swimming room. She doesn't change any of the water, only tops off and so far she hasn't really had to feed the betta as he eats on the worms & baby snails. I found it to be quite fun. I think in the time I had it, I did two 100% water changes because I over fed the snails and really foobarred the water. 

Go for it!

p.s. Bettas are pretty cool little dudes with quite the personality, but beware they jump.


----------



## imported_Winzzy

Hey Whiskey Sorry we didn't get your moonligts in before I had to leave... I can still help when I return our book (Finished it already) if you like.

How are the frags doing?


----------



## DataGuru

That should work fine. Tho I'd go larger if you could. maybe 2.5 gallon. I have a little 5 gallon NPT set up for my betta boy.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> I say YES and it is tons of fun. I did that with a 1g hex and used all kinds of different "easy" plants, put in black worms, red rams and mts. Had this going for over six months gave it to my niece and now she is happily keeping her betta in a 1g jungle she has to trim just so he has swimming room. She doesn't change any of the water, only tops off and so far she hasn't really had to feed the betta as he eats on the worms & baby snails. I found it to be quite fun. I think in the time I had it, I did two 100% water changes because I over fed the snails and really foobarred the water.
> 
> Go for it!
> 
> p.s. Bettas are pretty cool little dudes with quite the personality, but beware they jump.


Nice, now I can't wait. You say to watch out because betas jump, how did you fix that? The tank I am looking at is open top with no way to add a lid, did yours have a lid?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by The Winzman:
> Hey Whiskey Sorry we didn't get your moonligts in before I had to leave... I can still help when I return our book (Finished it already) if you like.
> 
> How are the frags doing?


No worries, I did not have time to pick up the 2*4's anyway. If you want to drop by this weekend (I should be around far earler this time) we can do it then. I want to put in that retrofit kit you were talking about while it is off anyway, and I have 2 better reflectors I need to add at the same time. I want to take light readings before I do all that anyway, then take the same readings afterword.



> our book


froidian slip?

The frags are doing great, but I found what may be the problem with the SPS tank!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been ripping my hair out over this for months, check out these numbers,...









Not good.







http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/whiskey27/LUX2MOD.jpg[/URL]
Better, but still NOT GOOD.








Now we are talking!!!!!!! I had about 1/2-1/4 the light I needed!! I had to add a second 250W MH fixture to get that light to where it needed to be. I am borrowing my friends fixture right now, and have a second one of my own on order.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> That should work fine. Tho I'd go larger if you could. maybe 2.5 gallon. I have a little 5 gallon NPT set up for my betta boy.


I will see what I can find, I need something that looks like a "play toy" more than a tank. I also need to be able to pick it up full and put it in my filing cabnet if needed (boss requires this). I think he made this requirement to ensure I don't start setting up a 180 at work.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## Erin

I took some of that craft canvas and cut it to fit the inside lip and kept that in place when I wasn't at my desk. I did take it off if I was sitting right there becuase I happen to really like open tanks. I have a 5g shrimp tank that I have to fill w/2q every day becuase of evaporation and my cats using it as a watering hole. Fortunately the shrimp are much faster than the cats. I wasn't so fortunate w/a female betta.









Do you have a way to heat it? I found that my bettas get real sluggish if the temp drops to the lower 70s. I found one that is specifically for smaller tanks for $15 but I have not used it in one that small. Mine is being used for the 5g shrimp tank. If the office is warm enough you may not have to worry about it.

Regards,
Erin


----------



## Erin

> I will see what I can find, I need something that looks like a "play toy" more than a tank. I also need to be able to pick it up full and put it in my filing cabnet if needed (boss requires this). I think he made this requirement to ensure I don't start setting up a 180 at work.










LOL I can so see that!


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> I took some of that craft canvas and cut it to fit the inside lip and kept that in place when I wasn't at my desk. I did take it off if I was sitting right there becuase I happen to really like open tanks. I have a 5g shrimp tank that I have to fill w/2q every day becuase of evaporation and my cats using it as a watering hole. Fortunately the shrimp are much faster than the cats. I wasn't so fortunate w/a female betta.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a way to heat it? I found that my bettas get real sluggish if the temp drops to the lower 70s. I found one that is specifically for smaller tanks for $15 but I have not used it in one that small. Mine is being used for the 5g shrimp tank. If the office is warm enough you may not have to worry about it.
> 
> Regards,
> Erin


I don't have a way to heat it, and the office runns at about 72 deg so that may be a problem. I thought beatas are a little sluggish anyway.

I need to find a way to close the top of the tank that looks like it was made that way, I may do something with acrilic, if I used canvas, that tank would be in the filing cabnet all the time







. My boss is a neat freak, he uses lysol on his desk/keyboard/mouse every morning before touching them, and does the same thing to his keys.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:I will see what I can find, I need something that looks like a "play toy" more than a tank. I also need to be able to pick it up full and put it in my filing cabnet if needed (boss requires this). I think he made this requirement to ensure I don't start setting up a 180 at work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL I can so see that!
Click to expand...

So can I







. I have a 29Gal with stand and canopy sitting empty right now that would in my office in a second.

Whiskey


----------



## imported_Winzzy

> quote:
> our book
> 
> 
> 
> froidian slip?
Click to expand...

Ever since the jelly donut incident my "Y" key has been sticky.... add a Y to the beginning of our =P


----------



## whiskey

MMMMM jelly donuts haaaaaaaaa

Btw, you are the 200th post to this thread







.

Whiskey


----------



## imported_Winzzy

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> MMMMM jelly donuts haaaaaaaaa
> 
> Btw, you are the 200th post to this thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Whiskey


Do I win a prize?


----------



## spiral

Whiskey,

Can you put up a new pic of your tank?
Curious what it looks like now.


----------



## imported_Winzzy

If I had hosting I could post a video of the tank... much more impressive than a picture... though I need to figure out how to turn the sound off so my hunky voice doesn't drive all the women crazy! *Hey I am a married man!*


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by The Winzman:
> If I had hosting I could post a video of the tank... much more impressive than a picture... though I need to figure out how to turn the sound off so my hunky voice doesn't drive all the women crazy! *Hey I am a married man!*


Your head is growing number two,....

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by spiral:
> Whiskey,
> 
> Can you put up a new pic of your tank?
> Curious what it looks like now.


Ya, I have not updated that in a while, give me until tomorrow night.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by The Winzman:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Originally posted by Whiskey:
> MMMMM jelly donuts haaaaaaaaa
> 
> Btw, you are the 200th post to this thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Whiskey
> 
> 
> 
> Do I win a prize?
Click to expand...

Sure, free plants.

Did you ever figure out what to do about your lighting? Is your tank ready to go yet?

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I took a few pics tonight in hopes of posting them, but they were terrible. 

Tomorrow when the lights come on I will try again.
cameras and me never get along,... Just ask Winzman how hard it is to get a pic of the 180 without a reflection of my reef covering half of it.

Sorry,
Whiskey


----------



## imported_Winzzy

In my estimation your reef adds about 79.83 Watts to your planted tank...

My lights come in next week and I am almost done planning my stand. I actually have a very cool idea on how to make it.

I'll call you today to see when to drop off those lights and salt... oh and your book. I will bring my camera to try to help get good shots; it is easier just to take a video though.


----------



## whiskey

The reef very well may add some light to the planted tank, I should use my light meater to find out.

I would post a video, if I could figure out how,..

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

More Pics







!!!


























Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have started on the new CO2 reactor, the old one was built for 100GPH, and I am now pushing 350GPH through it so some small bubbles get through, no problem, just a waist. 

For the new one I will use CLEAR pvc for the body so I can see the bubbles sloshing around, it will be bigger around (3" pipe) and longer to avoid this problem.

I will try to get some pics of building it up tonight.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

This is the beginning of the new Diy co2 reactor.

First took a piece of 3 inch clear PVC and glued it to a 3 inch to 1.5 inch reducer, I then glued a 1.5 inch to ¾ inch threaded reducer. This will be where water comes in.










Then I took a rubber cap (the kind that stays on with a hose clamp), drilled a hole in that, and inserted a bulkhead through it for the exit water. I already have a couple of problems with this plan, but I hope to fix them soon.










Then I drilled 2 holes in the 3 inch to 1 ½ inch reducer one for an airbleedoff (for priming after cleaning) and one to put the co2 into.










So far this is as far as I have gotten, comments welcome.

Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Number of pages in this thread: 15

Number of pages of posts in the "El Natural" Forum: 16

Value of Whiskey's thread: Priceless.

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ricardo V.:
> Number of pages in this thread: 15
> 
> Number of pages of posts in the "El Natural" Forum: 16
> 
> Value of Whiskey's thread: Priceless.
> 
> -ricardo


Thanks,
and the other scary thing? This thread has 2 more posts than I do









Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Oh, GEEZ, I replied to something else, now this thread only has one more post then I do.









Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Wow, its looking really LOVELY, Whiskey!

It sounds like you and the Weather loaches WERE Destiny, after all! 

Your boss doesn't lysol YOUR desk, right? That could be lethal for a little "toy" tank. I wonder if Cherry Shrimp (aka "tank roaches" by some) would freak him out? *evil snicker*.

If you have access to a table saw (I believe you said you did) than a piece of acrylic as a lid would be pretty easy. Just get the square dimensions, then do a little shaping on the corners - it would be very attractive. I know someone who made their own terrarium, and he used clear epoxy to glue a glass marble (with a swirl of blue in it) on to a lid as a handle. That worked very nicely! If you wanted to get very fancy, some little blobs of clear silicone could be little "bumpers" for the lid. 

Ah, the old hide-it-in-the filing cabinet trick! I remember the first time I saw that in action. I was doing temp secretarial at a legal firm, and the woman next to me opened her file drawer and pulled out her sneakers when going home. (You DON'T want to try and navigate Boston cobblestone in high heels, LOL!).

Woo-hoo! 15 pages! this is one LONG thread! 

I like the picts with the DIY CO2 container. Its helpful to see it.

Take Care!
-Jane


----------



## whiskey

Thanks Jane, no my boss does not get anywhere near my desk with lysol, and I am sure I could make a lid of some kind.

I don't remember who said it, but there was mention of how weather loaches like to lie around and look dead. Check this out,... He is camped out in one of the notches in my overflow.









This is off topic (like there ever was a topic), it is for the winzman and his wife. I don't have a printer that can print pictures, so posting pictures is my only way to show somebody a pic of my tank.

This is a pic of my 15 gallon (nano) reef tank.









Enjoy,...
Whiskey


----------



## imported_Winzzy

Yummy... sorry to hijack the thred for a minute...


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Winzzy:
> Yummy... sorry to hijack the thred for a minute...


No prob, like I said this thread has been all over the place from the begining.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Update

Here are some new pics of the tank





































and while doing a water change I noticed the large sord on the right side is up to something, check it out





































I have a perty good idea what it is doing, but it will be interesting to see if the ones that have made it out of the water will flower.

No further progress has been made on the co2 reactor, I have been buisy lately and have not had much time to continue my work.

Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

That was pre trim, I trimmed everything down yesterday, got rid of the ratty bottoms, and planted the tops, as well as giveing a few plants away. I will post pics post trim tonight, then in a couple of weeks when it growes in to where it is supposed to be I will post pics of that. I also got a few new speices of plants due to a club I found in this area, hopefully they do ok.

The trimming pictures may shock you, I really cut it up, but I think it will grow in fuller and healther for it. I also found that my java fern is doing remarkably well, this is new, because in my past natural tanks I have never done really well with this plant (always did great in high tech), I had to thin that out too because it was shadowing itself.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, that was pre trim, this is post trim, as you can see I really hacked it up. I think it will grow in even fuller for having done it though.





































Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I got 3 diffrent types of forground plants at a club meeting on Sunday, so hopefully they will survive the cherry barbs, and I will finally have something low to fill in the front a bit.

Whiskey


----------



## dwalstad

Tanks looks great-- before and after its trim.

I let my swordplants develop their babies, so that they stream across the top of the tank. It's an unusual effect. You can snip off the babies to bring to your next plant meeting.


----------



## imported_Winzzy

Nice looking Whiskey!

I managed to fit all of you pants into my tank, it is a jungle!

I would love a sword but the only ones I have seent hat stay small are some Rhonda has in one of her tanks...

They grow about 3-5" tall and are redish colored even in low light. Anyone have any ideas on what type of sword they could be?


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> Tanks looks great-- before and after its trim.
> 
> I let my swordplants develop their babies, so that they stream across the top of the tank. It's an unusual effect. You can snip off the babies to bring to your next plant meeting.


She's Back









Thanks for the complement, I plan to let my sord do what it wants to. It seems to be producing some plantlets under the water, but I don't know what it is up to above the water?? Some of the stalks have browned out (died) at the tips, but they seem healthy to the second bud down in all cases. I am excited to see what it is up to, this sord has only multiplied by splitting for me before, but before it was in a 20G tank.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Winzzy:
> Nice looking Whiskey!
> 
> I managed to fit all of you pants into my tank, it is a jungle!
> 
> I would love a sword but the only ones I have seent hat stay small are some Rhonda has in one of her tanks...
> 
> They grow about 3-5" tall and are redish colored even in low light. Anyone have any ideas on what type of sword they could be?


I am glad you got the plants in, but I gave you 2 speices of sord. Chain sord, and black sord, (they both stay small) BTW, post some pics of your tank already







.

Whiskey


----------



## ramsvella

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> I plan to let my sord do what it wants to. It seems to be producing some plantlets under the water, but I don't know what it is up to above the water??


Very informative thread Whiskey.

My ozelot plantlets always get dried out (burnt almost) after flowering when left emersed. So I prefer to manually submerge the stalk.



















regards,

Rams


----------



## whiskey

You did find me Rams, nice to have you jump in. Those are some spectacular pictures, thanks for posting them, you are odviousally far better with a camera than I am.

Will the sord flower underwater, or does the stock have to clear the water to produce the flower? 

I have a number of plantlets comming off the stocks that are still submerged, but the stocks that have cleared the water are not doing much of anything yet, except for trying to grow through the hood. Did you just tie a weight to your stocks to submerge them? 

Diana, did you force your stalks down? Or did they stream acros the top on their own?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## ramsvella

When left to stream on its own on the surface, the stalk naturally will stay at the surface, sometimes emerged. Flowers are then formed emersed.
When the flower dies away I submerge it just beneath the surface and the plantlets are formed.I just force the stalk to pass under some ludwigas or other plants near the surface. In high humidity environments the stalk could be left emersed and plantlets are also formed... but as I said they tend to dry up in my case.

I managed to read all your thread. One of the most informative and structured I have ever read. Keep it up!


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Rams:
> When left to stream on its own on the surface, the stalk naturally will stay at the surface, sometimes emerged. Flowers are then formed emersed.
> When the flower dies away I submerge it just beneath the surface and the plantlets are formed.I just force the stalk to pass under some ludwigas or other plants near the surface. In high humidity environments the stalk could be left emersed and plantlets are also formed... but as I said they tend to dry up in my case.
> 
> I managed to read all your thread. One of the most informative and structured I have ever read. Keep it up!


Right on, thanks for the information and the complement. I have a very high humidity envryoment in the hood, because there is no ventalation in it right now. I may later have to add fans, but right now it is winter so I am ok. I have plenty (more than I can probably find homes for) of plants growing on the stalks under the water line, so I think I will see what it does naturally. I really hope I get those flowers though, they are really cool.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, the progress on the CO2 reactor continues. It got put on hold for some time because of other projects I was involved with. I found that the rubber plug with the bulkhead in it would not work, although it would probably be fine, I found that if I bumped the pipe the bulkhead would pull out, so I changed my ideas about that.

I am now using a 3inch slip, to a 3 inch thread plastic PVC fitting, with a 3 inch PCV plug that I drilled and inserted a bulkhead in.

There are bio balls in the bottom of the reactor where the water goes out to break up the water flow and make sure no bubbles make it through to the output.





































Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## dwalstad

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> I plan to let my sword do what it wants to. It seems to be producing some plantlets under the water, but I don't know what it is up to above the water?? Some of the stalks have browned out (died) at the tips, but they seem healthy to the second bud down in all cases. I am excited to see what it is up to, this sword has only multiplied by splitting for me before, but before it was in a 20G tank.
> 
> Thanks,
> Whiskey


Sometime if you leave the plantlets above the surface they'll dry out. So if that looks like its happening, I would try to force the reproductive "cable" under the water. I'd follow RAM's advice.

My swords only seem to reproduce in winter when the tanks get a lot of sunny window light.


----------



## imported_Winzzy

I was meaning Amazon swords... though maybe the pygmy and the black are amazon types...?

Pictures may have to wait until april after my camera fiascos are over... still need to have you over to measure my Lux...


----------



## DataGuru

So where in your system are you going to put the reactor?


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Originally posted by Whiskey:
> I plan to let my sword do what it wants to. It seems to be producing some plantlets under the water, but I don't know what it is up to above the water?? Some of the stalks have browned out (died) at the tips, but they seem healthy to the second bud down in all cases. I am excited to see what it is up to, this sword has only multiplied by splitting for me before, but before it was in a 20G tank.
> 
> Thanks,
> Whiskey
> 
> 
> 
> Sometime if you leave the plantlets above the surface they'll dry out. So if that looks like its happening, I would try to force the reproductive "cable" under the water. I'd follow RAM's advice.
> 
> My swords only seem to reproduce in winter when the tanks get a lot of sunny window light.
Click to expand...

Good to know, I will keep an eye out for that.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Winzzy:
> I was meaning Amazon swords... though maybe the pygmy and the black are amazon types...?


I can't answer that question, perhaps somebody else can?


> Pictures may have to wait until april after my camera fiascos are over... still need to have you over to measure my Lux...


Ya I was going to come over after the meeting, but you left early,... We will have to plan to get together some time and do that.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> So where in your system are you going to put the reactor?


It doesn't go inside the system, it goes underneeth the stand, fead by one of the canister filters. I hate internal equiptment, so when I set this tank up I promiced myself I would make everything external as much as possible. It is a little more work, but I think it is worth it.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I HAVE A PROBLEM AND I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!

My SAE's have devoloped a taist for plants, or at least 2 of them have. One of them is tearing my red tiger lotas to peices, the other one is eating leaf after leaf off a couple of my stem plants. This just started to happen about 2 weeks ago, and has progressavly gotten much worse, at this point the Lotas has no leaves left! 

Any idea on how to catch these suckers?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## DataGuru

You could make a minnow trap and bait it with something tasty.


----------



## imported_Winzzy

Wow!

Scott told me they would turn to the dark side once they got old enough but man thats farther than I thought they would go... Did you feed them sinking greens?


----------



## flagg

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Any idea on how to catch these suckers?
> 
> Thanks,
> Whiskey


Lots and lots of patience. Chase the fish into the net with a second net. Very carefully and with lots of patience...

-ricardo


----------



## Erin

> I HAVE A PROBLEM AND I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!
> 
> My SAE's have devoloped a taist for plants, or at least 2 of them have. One of them is tearing my red tiger lotas to peices, the other one is eating leaf after leaf off a couple of my stem plants. This just started to happen about 2 weeks ago, and has progressavly gotten much worse, at this point the Lotas has no leaves left!
> 
> Any idea on how to catch these suckers?


You can always try a glass mayo/mason jar (cleaned of course) and take a 2 liter bottle cut the top off, shove it into the mayo jar and bait w/food. You might get more fish than you were hoping for and it may take a day or two, but that is the best way I have found to get something out that is determined to stay in and munch away. Try baiting w/Zucchini or Cucumber. I find this method much less stressful on myself & the fish I am trying to catch. Since you have such a large tank, you shouldn't have any trouble, I have used it in a 10g tank. Quite a sight! LOL

Here is a few pictures of what I am talking about









Fish Trap


----------



## Jane of Upton

Wow, Whiskey, its looking good! Sorry to hear your SAE's have turned "to the dark side". Have you tried feeding them zuchini or Sinking wafers?

I have a question - what is the tall plant with the long, thin, ruffled-edge leaves over on the left side of the tank, about 2/3 towards the back? Is that a Cryptocoryne balansae? Or a Crinum type plant? If its a C. balansae, its huge! How large was it when you got it, and how long did it take to get that size? Wow!

And man, oh man, I'd call what you did to the plants more than a "TRIM", LOL! I'm sure it will grow in nicely, but you were right - the before and after pictures were quite different!

Thanks for the updates & pictures!
-Jane

PS - I really like your saltwater setup, too! That's a 15 gallon? It looks bigger.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> You could make a minnow trap and bait it with something tasty.


That is a good idea, I had seen that trap before for SW shrimp and crabs, didn't think to use it for fish. I will have to go buy a 2 leiter of coke or something in a clear bottle.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Winzzy:
> Wow!
> 
> Scott told me they would turn to the dark side once they got old enough but man thats farther than I thought they would go... Did you feed them sinking greens?


You don't know the half of it, I have been watching these fish a lot more closely lately, and it seems that they are also picking on other fish, including the barbs!!! If my oscar wasn't in dire strates right now they would go in his tank, try picking on him!

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ricardo V.:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Any idea on how to catch these suckers?
> 
> Thanks,
> Whiskey
> 
> 
> 
> Lots and lots of patience. Chase the fish into the net with a second net. Very carefully and with lots of patience...
> 
> -ricardo
Click to expand...

I tried this at first, but there is far too many hiding places, and the fish know the net.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Erin C.:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:I HAVE A PROBLEM AND I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!
> 
> My SAE's have devoloped a taist for plants, or at least 2 of them have. One of them is tearing my red tiger lotas to peices, the other one is eating leaf after leaf off a couple of my stem plants. This just started to happen about 2 weeks ago, and has progressavly gotten much worse, at this point the Lotas has no leaves left!
> 
> Any idea on how to catch these suckers?
> 
> 
> 
> You can always try a glass mayo/mason jar (cleaned of course) and take a 2 liter bottle cut the top off, shove it into the mayo jar and bait w/food. You might get more fish than you were hoping for and it may take a day or two, but that is the best way I have found to get something out that is determined to stay in and munch away. Try baiting w/Zucchini or Cucumber. I find this method much less stressful on myself & the fish I am trying to catch. Since you have such a large tank, you shouldn't have any trouble, I have used it in a 10g tank. Quite a sight! LOL
> 
> Here is a few pictures of what I am talking about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fish Trap
Click to expand...

That cucomber is a good idea, I will have to try that in my trap. I don't have a glass jar, but it looks like your trap works like the one before only made to last longer.

I am going to make the trap this weekend (I have been working 12 hour days) and I will keep everybody posted.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Wow, Whiskey, its looking good! Sorry to hear your SAE's have turned "to the dark side". Have you tried feeding them zuchini or Sinking wafers?


I have not tried feeding them any algae eater specific foods, but they eat the flake I feed the fish and they get plenty. After eating they look like baloons.


> I have a question - what is the tall plant with the long, thin, ruffled-edge leaves over on the left side of the tank, about 2/3 towards the back? Is that a Cryptocoryne balansae? Or a Crinum type plant? If its a C. balansae, its huge! How large was it when you got it, and how long did it take to get that size? Wow!


It is a crypt of some kind, but I don't know what (I am not good with plant names), when I bought it it was fully submerged in a 20 gallon tank, but I have had it a few years. It has never really grown or split, and always had 3 leaves, but for some reason it seems to be doing better in this tank than ever before. 


> And man, oh man, I'd call what you did to the plants more than a "TRIM", LOL! I'm sure it will grow in nicely, but you were right - the before and after pictures were quite different!


Lol, ya it started as a trim, but then I decided just to go for the "vacent lot" type aquascape. It is already starting to fill in, I should post updated pics when I remember to.


> Thanks for the updates & pictures!
> -Jane


No problem, thanks for jumping in with your questions and input, that is what keeps this thread going.


> PS - I really like your saltwater setup, too! That's a 15 gallon? It looks bigger.


Thanks, yes it is a 15 gallon, the footprint is 24*12, but it is only 12 inches tall. It is a softie tank with a sandbed and I tend to incourage macro algae (marine plants) and micro algae growth as a secondary export of nutreants. The problem with a tank this small is it quickally got packed and I don't really have much room for any more types of coral.









Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have sad news, the Oscar is dead. I think he met the same fate as the last one, swollowed a rock which got loged in his digestive tract.

For the last two weeks he has been laying on his side in the rocks, unresponsave and breathing hard. He has not been eating, not moving, even when prodded or picked up. Tonight I decided to put him out of his misory seing as there was nothing more I could try to do to save him.

I had this fish for many years, he will be missed







, he was very personable and would alow me to touch him, even brush agenst my arm during water changes looking for food and attention.

RIP









Whiskey


----------



## imported_Winzzy

I am sorry to hear that man.


----------



## Miss Fishy

I'm sorry to hear the Oscar is dead. That's a pretty nasty way to go, too. How long had you had him for? 

From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> I'm sorry to hear the Oscar is dead. That's a pretty nasty way to go, too. How long had you had him for?
> 
> From Alex.


I had this fish for years, a 29 gallon he outgrew became my first sucessfull planted tank, then when that was shut down the same tank became my first salt water tank.

I can't even remember when I got him it has been that long, it was far before the year 2000 though, because I remember joking that on new-years his digital thermomeater would probably crash. (Not a very good joke mind you, but understand this was new-years and I was drunk) He had already outgrowen the 29 at this point and moved up to a 50.

What a shame,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Here is the thing that really throwes a wrench in the works. On the heals of the Oscar's death, I think the 180 will have to come down before the end of the year.

I was thinking about making the 125 a reef tank, but the fact is that it is not a reef ready tank, and the stand was not built for salt. The 180 is a reef ready tank, with a stand that can handle all the equiptment reqired.

What is sadly, going to have to happen, is everything in the 180 has to go into the 125, and then the 180 can become a reef. I am sure the 125 will turn out quite nice, and will be able to stay that way for a long while, but I never expected to be shutting down the 180 so soon, although eventually I knew this would probably happen.

Whiskey


----------



## flagg

Hey Whiskey: Sorry to hear about the Oscar... That's too bad... I'd get another one!

As for having to take down the tank, that stinks too! I've been enjoying this thread. You'll have to start a new one for the 125... Also, you should feel lucky to be able to have a 180 reef tank and a 125 planted tank! 

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

Ricardo, I am going to keep going with this thread. I will post pictures of the transfer to the 125, and pictues of the building of the new hood/rehooking of the equiptment. Not much will change, I will just transfer tanks, get new substrate, because I can't seperate the gravel from the soil that I have already.

I will hate tearing this tank down, but it really would not make any sence to spend $400 having the 125 drilled overflowes installed, not to mention spending $200 building a new "salt water compatable" stand for it when I already have that in the 180. Plus the 125's setup will work perfect for my planted tank, without the intrusion of the overflow, except I loose a little depth.

I feel very lucky









Keep an eye out for me, this week I will probably be sending you that box, the tank is just about overgrowen enough. If you have any special requests of things you specifically want me to make sure I don't leave out, speak now! I think you will get most, if not all, of what I have.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I built that trap in an effert to remove my munching fish, it works perfect for catching tigerbarbs










I have been putting them in a holding tank because they keep plugging up my trap. I have cought 25 barbs in about 30 min.

I will keep you updated

Whiskey


----------



## Erin

Try setting the trap on it's side and I think you will have better luck catching more than just barbs.


----------



## DataGuru

Yea, I always put it on it's side as well.

If you're not going to monitor it closely or you forget it's in there O2 levels can get too low in the bottle. be sure and punch some holes in it for water circulation.


----------



## whiskey

Ok I now have most of the fish out of my tank, I have been putting the guppies and pecefull fish back in, while I have been removing the barbs to a holding tank (only 4 remaining in the main tank), because they tend to fight other fish in the trap. 

I put it on it's side (thanks for the tip) and have 2 of the 4 evil plant eaters out of the tank.

The final remaining algae (plant) eater seems content to clean the outside of the trap, but I am holding out hope.

I also poked some holes in the outside of the bottle for water cerculation.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have great news, first off:

* The 180 will NOT be torn down, * I couldn't bear the thought. I am going to do something else for my future reef.

Second I got all the plant eaters out. Now all but 3 of my tiger barbs are in the 125 (old oscar tank) and so are the SAE's. I am thinking about weither I want to keep the tiger barbs, or return them and keep a more peacefull tank. I would love to put a Beta in there, and a Perl Gerami, and more neons, rasbaras, and verious tetras but with the tigers that is impossible.

What would you do? Go for more of a speices tank with the tigers? OR Trade the tigers in for some really cool, more peicefull fish?

I must say since the barbs are out, the other fish are eating a lot better, looking healthier, and behaving more natural.

I await your opinions and comments.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## DataGuru

That's great news!









I don't like aggressive fish myself. so I'd go with cool and peaceful. LOL


----------



## Matt S.

I'm glad to hear you're not tearing down the 180 G. I've been following it long enough that I'm wrapped up in the story and want to hear what's next. 

I like the effect of a bunch of Tetra's - like a shoal of jewels /or/ living lava lamp effect.


----------



## snowhillbilly

I always say never to many neons in a tank.


----------



## flagg

Personally, I too like a more peaceful tank. I think pearl gouramis (at least a pair) would make a stunning addition, as would a large school or rasboras!

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

Ok, it looks like the tigers are out.

Now I need your help a bit, do you have any idea how to get the last 5 out? They are not interested in my trap one bit, and 2 nets are just about out of the qestion with this tank. I was thinking about a small fish hook and some fishing line but these are small barbs and I am not sure I could find a hook small enough.

I may try starving the tank for a few days and putting the trap in again, but then I think I may catch the whole tank.

I hope to post some new pics soon, I have been working 12's and saterdays, so I have not had a lot of time as of late, but it doesn't take that long to get a few pics.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

*THEY ARE OUT!!!!, I WIN* Now I get to go fish shopping









After building a couple of diffrent types of traps that did not work either, I just drained the tank. I had to drain it twice to get them all but I did it!!!!

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, enough talk time for some pics!

I got two diffrent speices of fish for my new tank, I got 7 rummynose tetras, and 1 beta. Here are some pics of them.

The beta, this thing really glows! I love the color.



















The tetras, very spectacular fish, as soon as I saw them I knew I had to have them.




























Now full tank shots, keep in mind these are taken the day after compleatly draining this tank twice to catch all the tiger barbs, so some of the plants are still entangled.





































Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

Your tank is looking great! I think the Rummynose Tetras are a perfect choice to go with the plants in your tank. Are you going to get more than seven individual fish? I think a large school of them would look spectacular. 

From Alex.


----------



## flagg

Wow Whiskey! The tank looks just great! I love rummynosed tetras. I used to keep some, they're great, if somewhat sensitive fish. I'd get more! They should leave the betta alone, as they are peaceful enough to be kept w/ discus. You know, in a tank that big, you could get away with having a couple female bettas in there too...

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Your tank is looking great! I think the Rummynose Tetras are a perfect choice to go with the plants in your tank. Are you going to get more than seven individual fish? I think a large school of them would look spectacular.
> 
> From Alex.


Thanks Alex, I do plan to get more than 7 rummy nose tetras, but at $4.00 a peice I wanted to see how they would like my tank before I broke the bank.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Ricardo V.:
> Wow Whiskey! The tank looks just great! I love rummynosed tetras. I used to keep some, they're great, if somewhat sensitive fish. I'd get more! They should leave the betta alone, as they are peaceful enough to be kept w/ discus. You know, in a tank that big, you could get away with having a couple female bettas in there too...
> 
> -ricardo


Female Bettas eh? I don't think I have ever seen those, but I have never looked either. I never really got cought-up in the betta fever, I will keep my eyes open next time I am in an LFS.

I do plan to get more rummy nose tetras, but I want to see how these do first. I would also like to get more neons, more zebra danios, and definatally more razboras.

So about this discus,.... Is there anything in my tank that can't be kept with a discus? Are they more trouble than they are worth?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

As a side note I think I have figured out how to post a 30 second video, is anyone intrested in seeing one? I haven't shot one of the planted tank yet, so I don't know how it would come out, but it may be worth a try even though the quality is low,..

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Good news, the beta eats the same flake food I feed the rest of the fish, I was worried about that. He doesn't like the pellets I use, but that is ok, provided he eats the flake.

Whiskey


----------



## Matt S.

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> As a side note I think I have figured out how to post a 30 second video, is anyone intrested in seeing one? I haven't shot one of the planted tank yet, so I don't know how it would come out, but it may be worth a try even though the quality is low,..
> 
> Whiskey


We've seem it in still pictures and it just keeps getting better, so.. yes please give us with the 30 second clip.

Rummy nose tetra's are great aren't they! IME they tend to school more tightly than other tetra's - even Neons relax and spread out sooner than these guys.


----------



## whiskey

Thanks for the reply Matt, I expected more of a responce, but if one person is interested, that is plenty enough for me. 

I shot a couple videos last night with my digi camera, but I am still trying to get the hang of it, so it may be a couple of days before I get something worth putting up.

Thanks for checking in,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

There's more than one person interested! I want to see a video too! 

From Alex.


----------



## Erin

Me too!! Me too!! I have truely enjoyed the experience of your tank from start to present day!


----------



## ramsvella

Hi whiskey,

I still follow your thread regularly. The video would be great!
Just give us a peep from time to time and leave some comments on your tank to Maltese folks too!
lol

Looking forward for your vid!


----------



## whiskey

Thanks for the replys guys, My video taking skills are terrible, but I hope to have something decent up tomorrow, I am going to attempt to shoot a good one after work Friday, when I have a bit more time to consentrate.

Rams: I went over there today, unfortanatally I have been working 12-14 hour days lately (last month or more) and have not had much time for fourms, I have just been keeping up the threads I started, and not even that to an exceptable extent.

Here are 2 neet pics I wanted to share, took them tonight while updating a thread on another board and thought you might like them.



















Enjoy,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok, this is video thing is turning out to be a real problem. To solve the first part of it, please let me know if you can watch this, it may take a while to download so be pachent.

I hosted it on putfile.com, if anyone can figure out how to zoom please let me know about that too.

http://media.putfile.com/only-a-test-37

Thanks,
Whiseky


----------



## Miss Fishy

Yes, I can see the video! I don't know how to zoom in though. I can see some of the larger fish swimming around. The tank looks great! 

From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

Ok well that solves one potential hangup with the videos, at least one person can view it.

The other problem is going to be a bit harder to solve, that problem is that the tank is too big to get a good video of all at once, because like Alex said, you can't see the fish.

This camera is a cheap one, and I can't up the video rez, but even if I could the size would be far larger and more of a pain to download.

I am going to play with taking videos of smaller sections of the tank, and see how that works out.

Stay tuned,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Alex, what is up with that egg in your sig?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## DataGuru

It's an egg that's going to hatch into an aquatic creature sometime tomorrow!


----------



## whiskey

Ok, so now you have a busted egg, and a fish in your sig,... Does the fish grow? Or swim around the screen?

Is it like one of those interactive games where you have to feed it and care for it?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have a teazer for you on the next project for the 180.









Can anyone tell me what this is and what I am going to use it for?



















If someone can tell me I will elaborate on my plans








Whiskey


----------



## DataGuru

Wild guess...
Is it an ORP meter??


----------



## flagg

> Originally posted by Betty:
> Wild guess...
> Is it an ORP meter??


No no no, it's clearly a flux capacitor and he's going to use it to go back to the future.

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

Well Ricardo, I must say that Betty is closer, time travel is not involved, at least not yet









I took two more vids, (well a bunch really but 2 worth uploading) and I will have them here in a moment.

Keep guessing all, nobody has it yet









Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Ok here are 2 vids that I put up on Putfile.com, keep in mind that they are about 7.5 megs each, so you may have to wait a spell. Rather than taking a vid of the whole tank, I consentrated more on the fish themselfs in these and I think they came out far better.

http://media.putfile.com/Loach

http://media.putfile.com/up2-80

Let me know,
Whiskey


----------



## Jane of Upton

Hey Whiskey!

Its looking nice! And I'm SO glad you're leaving the 180 gal up as a planted tank. I have also gotten fond of checking in to see how its doing! Thanks for all the updates and pictures. 

If you have the bettas, I'd do a bit of research before introducing any gouramis. They're pretty close in body shape to the bettas (and a relative, too) so they can illicit the "fight" response. I've read that in a large, planted tank, a few female bettas can learn to evade the male just fine. 

Thanks for the updates!
-Jane


----------



## DataGuru

Darn. I was hoping it was an orp meter. LOL

So do you only have 3 white skirt tetras?
If so, I'd add 2 or 4 more. They school quite nicely when they're happy and do this cool little group shimmy thing.


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Jane of Upton:
> Hey Whiskey!
> 
> Its looking nice! And I'm SO glad you're leaving the 180 gal up as a planted tank. I have also gotten fond of checking in to see how its doing! Thanks for all the updates and pictures.
> 
> If you have the bettas, I'd do a bit of research before introducing any gouramis. They're pretty close in body shape to the bettas (and a relative, too) so they can illicit the "fight" response. I've read that in a large, planted tank, a few female bettas can learn to evade the male just fine.
> 
> Thanks for the updates!
> -Jane


Thank-you, I am glad it is staying FW too. I always kinda figured the 180 would end up saltwater, but when it really came time to plan to tear it down I decided I really, really!, didn't want to.

That is interesting about the Gouramis and the beta, can the gourami get away? Right now the beta has a blood fued with the white skirt tetras, when ever it sees one it puffs out, pushes out it's gills and goes on the attack! But it is so slow (due to the large fins) that the White skirt tetras literally just wander away, often times unaware another fish is trying really hard to attack them. :lol: Will the Gouramis do what 2 male bettas will, just not leave and fight to the death?

Whenever I see a cool looking female beta, I will pick one up, I am sure the male would appreatiate the company.

Thanks,
Whiskey
(edit to change white cloud to white skirt I always get their name wrong)


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> Darn. I was hoping it was an orp meter. LOL
> 
> So do you only have 3 white skirt tetras?
> If so, I'd add 2 or 4 more. They school quite nicely when they're happy and do this cool little group shimmy thing.


Hmm that was weird, my computer went to sleep and I couldn't wake it up,.. I wonder if it had a hangover?

Nope sorry, not an ORP meater. I have wanted to get one of those, but I don't run ozone or anything so I can't really see spending the $200 on it to monitor levels I can't change.

Yes you are correct 3 White Skirt Tetras, 2 of those fish have been with me the longest out of any of the ones I have. They spent their juvinile years in my very first tank. They moved from that 10, into a 20, then a 29, to a 50, into a 25 tall, into another 50, now finally into the 180. I don't have any idea how long I have had them, err wait, maybe I do, they moved with me from my old apartment to this one, I don't know how long I had them at the old place, but I have lived here for 6 years. Old fish.

I origanally had 4, lost one almost immediatally and then one later died (I think of old age) about a year ago. I found another out of luck at a fish store and bought that to bring the school back up to 3 but haven't seen any more since. I have wanted to increace their numbers a bit but I don't like going into PetCo (I am sure they have some) for odvious reasons, but I may have to suck it up and go get a few more there. I would like to give them a few new friends.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> I have a teazer for you on the next project for the 180.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me what this is and what I am going to use it for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If someone can tell me I will elaborate on my plans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whiskey


No more guesses? I know there is more people than that following this thread!

Don't be afraid to guess








Whiskey


----------



## DataGuru

I tried a male and female betta together in my heavily planted 125 NPT. but chickened out a week later when she had a hunk out of her tail. Now she's in a 20 gallon NPT with two other betta females and a bunch of Endlers.

That's my dilemma with my black skirt tetras. I'm down to 3 now that are around 3 years old. I'd like a bigger school, but I don't want to add young ones because I'll end up in the same predicament again down the road.


----------



## DLevy

Looks like some kind of temperature controler.

Danny


----------



## darkfury18

I agree.. looks like a temp controller


----------



## dwalstad

Hi Whiskey,

I'm really glad that you are keeping your tank as freshwater planted tank. It's a treasure!

I'd suggest buying more than one female Betta. Female Bettas get along fine and they're not bad to look at either. If male has plentiful choices, he may not pick on just a single one. 

I've kept Pearl Gouramis peacefully with Bettas. I've never heard of Bettas fighting with Gouramis before. This is definitely news to me.

BTW, your Betta is just gorgeous.


----------



## Miss Fishy

Great videos, especially the one with the Weather Loach! That loach is so cute! It reminds me of my loach Wizz Off when he was small. The tank looks really beautiful and I can see lots of happy fish swimming around. Are they streams of bubbles I can see coming off the plants in the second video?

When are you going to reveal what that mysterious box with numbers on it really is?



> Originally posted by Whiskey:
> Alex, what is up with that egg in your sig?


Yay! Mine hatched into a clam or maybe an oyster! You can adopt Mystery Aquatic Eggs from the Goldfish and Aquarium Board. You don't have to feed them or anything; you just put them in your signature and wait for them to hatch.

From Alex.


----------



## littleguy

Guess = auto water top off system?


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Betty:
> 
> That's my dilemma with my black skirt tetras. I'm down to 3 now that are around 3 years old. I'd like a bigger school, but I don't want to add young ones because I'll end up in the same predicament again down the road.


I am not so worried about ending up in the same predicament, and I really like these fish, they have a quiet grace about them, I just don't want to support petco. I have seen the conditions they keep their fish in, and that is the only place I know of to get this speices.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by DLevy:
> Looks like some kind of temperature controler.
> 
> Danny


Ding, Ding, Ding,.. We HAAVEEE a winner!!!









You are correct, it is a temprature controler. I got it from work as we are upgrading the temprature controlers on all the plateing tanks there and were throwing out the old ones. Normally I would not use this controler because of cost, but if you want to do something like this on your tank, you can pick up a single stage temp controler from Granger for $25.

With summer fast aproaching, and a sealed canopy holding 330W of light over a 180 gallon tank tempratures are becoming a bit of an issue. I have been watching them climb from around 79 (winter) to now (summer drawing near) over 86 at the end of the photoperiod. The good thing is that the fish don't seem to be affected really, nor do the plants. The tank has enough water volume that the water tempratures don't fluxuate any more than 2 deg in any day.

The plan here, is to hook up this temprature controler so it maintains a temprature of 84 deg. What this means is that when water tempratures climb to 85 a small quiet fan will come on that will drop the temprature back down to 84 then shut off.

What I see alot of people doing to avoid high temp problems is plug in a large loud fan blasting air on the tank's water surface, which works great, but it works so well that all day the heater is clicking on and off to maintain 80, I think that is a waist of power, so I do it this way and I will continue not to need a heater in my tank.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by DarkFury18:
> I agree.. looks like a temp controller


You would also be correct









Thanks, 
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> Hi Whiskey,
> 
> I'm really glad that you are keeping your tank as freshwater planted tank. It's a treasure!


Thanks, although I really planed for this tank to be saltwater at one point, when it really came time to drop the hammer I couldn't do it. I have always wanted a BIG fresh water planted tank, and I imagine this tank will be it for a long time to come.


> I'd suggest buying more than one female Betta. Female Bettas get along fine and they're not bad to look at either. If male has plentiful choices, he may not pick on just a single one.


The male picks on the female? For some reason I have this backwards, I thought the female ate the male after spawn. I always see male betas, in the little cups at stores, but I have never seen a female, I need to pay more attention next time.


> I've kept Pearl Gouramis peacefully with Bettas. I've never heard of Bettas fighting with Gouramis before. This is definitely news to me.


That is good news, I really like Gouramis and next time I see some I want to pick a couple up. As a side note, I saw some really spectacular rainbows for sale the other day, how do they get along with betas, Gouramis and other peicefull fish?


> BTW, your Betta is just gorgeous.


Thanks, that guy really cought my eye even in the dim lighting of the store.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> Great videos, especially the one with the Weather Loach! That loach is so cute! It reminds me of my loach Wizz Off when he was small. The tank looks really beautiful and I can see lots of happy fish swimming around. Are they streams of bubbles I can see coming off the plants in the second video?


Thanks, I was wondering if anyone was watching those, and if they were working. Those loaches are really cool!, I put 3 in the tank, but I have never seen all 3 together, so I am not sure if I still have 3 or only 2. They are rather reclusave fish so it is kinda a treat when they decide to come out and show themselfs.

Those are streams of bubbles comming off the plants. Although I only inject CO2 at minamal levels in this tank (right now 5 PPM mid photoperiod) it is still enough that at the end of the photo period the water gets saturated with O2 and any further oxigen that is produced simply bubbles off. It makes for a cool effect.


> When are you going to reveal what that mysterious box with numbers on it really is?
> 
> From Alex.


Look up







^^^

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

> Originally posted by littleguy:
> Guess = auto water top off system?


I was really thinking about building one of those on when I set this tank up, but I decided to just fill it up and see how the level does. As it turns out with my weekly or bi-weekly water changes I never see the water line under the trim and never have to accually top it off.

So in the end, I just decided it was not nessesery, but they would be easy to build,... couple of float switches (3 for redundency) a small $15 pump, a cleaverly wired relay, and a holding tank and you would be set.

Even better, if you can set the holding tank above the main tank and have an overflow like I do to hide it, you can do it like I do in my reef, a simple kent floatvalve, and holding tank gravity feed.

Thanks for playing,
Whiskey


----------



## dwalstad

You have to look around for female Bettas, since they aren't as pretty and don't sell as well as the males. 

Betta spawning: Male builds bubble nest, chases female and gets her to lay eggs underneathe the bubble nest. Then he chases her away. Otherwise, she'll eat the eggs. He carefully guards the eggs and tends to them for several days. I don't think he eats during the entire nursing time. 

Female Bettas need to be old enough (carrying eggs) for this to work. And males can be picky. Betta spawning is a fantastic event to see; here's something to put on a video!

I think Rainbowfish can go with about anything--certainly gouramis. Rainblowfish are very peaceful, schooling fish. They live over 10 years, so they are a bigger committment than a Betta, which live about 2 years. 

If you're on a buying spree, I'd use a little caution about fish diseases. Rainbowfish seem to be rather susceptible to fish TB. A UV sterilizer can prevent many disease problems.


----------



## kimo

whiskey said:


> I have hit a MAJOR setback. I had a friend help me turn the tank on it's front so I could clean out the overflow box (tank was used) and I noticed that this tank does not have the normal trim around the bottom. The whole bottom of this tank is flat, flush. Every other tank I have ever dealt with had the glass bottom of the tank lifted about ¼ inch up by a plastic trim piece that sat on top of the stand. I don't know how to deal with a tank like this, I don't even know if my stand design is right now.
> 
> I was told that with a tank like this the stand top has to be PERFECT, not a single blemish, I did countersink my screws so the screw sits down in a hole a little, Is this a problem? I am not even sure the whole top is perfectly level (plywood doesn't come perfectly straight), I never checked I was just worried about where the trim would be sitting. I am VERY worried at this point. I will get measurements as soon as I can and let you know how bad off I am.
> 
> If you have ever dealt with a tank like this, please feel free to add any advice you may have!!! I might add that the bottom pane of glass is ½ inch, I should think that would be pretty strong!
> 
> Thanks,
> Whiskey


Any time you don't have a tank that has a floating bottom, you have to be very careful on how it's setup on the stand. Any high spot will create a pressure point.
The EASIEST way to avoid any pressure point.... 10 gal or 400 gallon is to take an old carpet and cut it into 1.5" strips. Lay the carpet strips beneath the outside edges and tape temporarily in place... then mount the tank.
For small tanks use double layer cardboard box material (regular shipping boxes). Cut in strips as above. I have used this method on 30+ tanks for more than 40+ years and have never had a crack or leaker yet. (biggest 150g, smallest 1.5g)


----------



## Jane in Upton

Hey Whiskey!

I'm glad to see your post continuing over here! 32 pages and counting! Whew!

Sure, try the Gouramis. I've only read an account of one Betta actually getting agressive with them, but I'm not even sure what kind of gourami it was. Also, the shape-response experiment we did in the animal behavior class did not have a huge sample size - perhaps our test subjects were just so P.O.'d by that point they'd "flare" at anything!

I've gotta go watch your videos.....
Thanks for keeping this updated!
-Jane


----------



## turbomkt

Hey...I just read through all 16 pages of this. Good read. Thanks for putting the time into it!

--Mike

p.s. I view 20 posts per page


----------



## John N.

Whoa, I second that. Thanks for the good read with continous updates and conjectures from everyone. Nice pics and tank by the way. Something I should try one of these days.

-John N.


----------



## whiskey

I'm here! 

First I want to thank the mods for moving our fourm to the new sight, I know it was allot of work and I am glad you put in the effert to make it happen!!

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

dwalstad said:


> You have to look around for female Bettas, since they aren't as pretty and don't sell as well as the males.
> 
> Betta spawning: Male builds bubble nest, chases female and gets her to lay eggs underneathe the bubble nest. Then he chases her away. Otherwise, she'll eat the eggs. He carefully guards the eggs and tends to them for several days. I don't think he eats during the entire nursing time.
> 
> Female Bettas need to be old enough (carrying eggs) for this to work. And males can be picky. Betta spawning is a fantastic event to see; here's something to put on a video!
> 
> I think Rainbowfish can go with about anything--certainly gouramis. Rainblowfish are very peaceful, schooling fish. They live over 10 years, so they are a bigger committment than a Betta, which live about 2 years.
> 
> If you're on a buying spree, I'd use a little caution about fish diseases. Rainbowfish seem to be rather susceptible to fish TB. A UV sterilizer can prevent many disease problems.


It looks like a couple of posts are missing, because I know I replied to this, and there were a few more posts after that, but no big.

As far as the UV goes,... read on.

I have not lost any more fish at this point,... but I am kinda gun shy about adding any more at this point. If my tank does have Fish TB, there is no way to irradicate it, only controal it which has me a little worried.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

kimo said:


> Any time you don't have a tank that has a floating bottom, you have to be very careful on how it's setup on the stand. Any high spot will create a pressure point.
> The EASIEST way to avoid any pressure point.... 10 gal or 400 gallon is to take an old carpet and cut it into 1.5" strips. Lay the carpet strips beneath the outside edges and tape temporarily in place... then mount the tank.
> For small tanks use double layer cardboard box material (regular shipping boxes). Cut in strips as above. I have used this method on 30+ tanks for more than 40+ years and have never had a crack or leaker yet. (biggest 150g, smallest 1.5g)


Thanks for the tip, if this tank ever gets dismantled for whatever reason I will give that a try, but for now I am leaving it alone  .

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Jane in Upton said:


> Hey Whiskey!
> 
> I'm glad to see your post continuing over here! 32 pages and counting! Whew!


I am glad to see my post made the move as well, hopefully it can be some help to an even wider variety of people over here. 


> Sure, try the Gouramis. I've only read an account of one Betta actually getting agressive with them, but I'm not even sure what kind of gourami it was. Also, the shape-response experiment we did in the animal behavior class did not have a huge sample size - perhaps our test subjects were just so P.O.'d by that point they'd "flare" at anything!
> 
> I've gotta go watch your videos.....
> Thanks for keeping this updated!
> -Jane


It is not a problem now, the beta was one of the fish I lost in the mass dieoff  I will probably get another one though, I really do like them. Hopefully my new upgrade will prevent this in the future, I immagen these tanks can quickly become a perfect breading ground for bacteria, good or bad, the UV should even the odds a bit.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

turbomkt said:


> Hey...I just read through all 16 pages of this. Good read. Thanks for putting the time into it!
> 
> --Mike
> 
> p.s. I view 20 posts per page


No problem Mike, I am glad you enjoyed it!

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

John N. said:


> Whoa, I second that. Thanks for the good read with continous updates and conjectures from everyone. Nice pics and tank by the way. Something I should try one of these days.
> 
> -John N.


Thanks for the complements, I am glad to see new people reading and chiming in on this thread.

Do you mean you should try to build your own stand?, Setup a 180?, or make a setup thread?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

So here is the current state of the tank:

No more fish losses since the inital mention of the problem, but those losses have me a little gun shy about adding any more fish, I am concerned that I may be putting them into a no-win situation.

The temp controler is working great! The one small fan on that controler is able to maintain the temp at 82 without issues and ilimanates the need for a heater, with a temp swing of only 1 deg. I will go into more depth on how this was made shortly.

A UV has been added to my tank to help prevent further desease! After allot of thought I decided to take the 40W emperror aquatics 4 foot UV off my Reef tank, that tank doesn't require it and it was causing temp problems over there. 

I would like input on the idea of adding any more fish, do you think the UV will stop this fish TB thing in it's tracks? Do you think that any fish I add at this point would be just fine in this tank now that the UV is taking care of water borne pathogins/bacteria?

Tank looks great!, although it needs a trim badly, I hope to post updated pics tomorrow, but I might be too buisy, check back!

A type of plant that I didn't know was capeable of flowering is flowering for me, this is very exciting and I can't wait to see what they will look like when they bloom!

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## DataGuru

So what makes you think it was fish TB?

Quarantine is always a great idea.


----------



## Miss Fishy

Welcome back, Whiskey! I was beginning to think we had lost you! I'm sorry to hear that so many fish died. Did the injured Weather Loach make it? 

I can't wait to see some updated pictures of the tank! 

From Alex.


----------



## whiskey

DataGuru said:


> So what makes you think it was fish TB?


First let me say that I don't know it was fish TB, but after Diana mentioned that it was a possiblility I did some reading. What I found was that due to the number of fish haturies that are infected it seems impossable that I wouldn't have it.

The idea behind the UV was that by my thinking these tanks have to be perfect breading grounds for bacteria. Temp is maintained at 80 deg, the water is conditioned, and there is tuns of simple shugers, food and poo for bacteria to feed on. It seems that if a bad type of bacteria is introduced it will quickly mulitply both waterborne and on surfaces, the UV should help to swing things more in the fish's favor.



> Quarantine is always a great idea.


Indeed!

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Miss Fishy said:


> Welcome back, Whiskey! I was beginning to think we had lost you!


You can't get rid of me that easy  .


> I'm sorry to hear that so many fish died. Did the injured Weather Loach make it?


Really it was just a handfull of fish, but a major bummer none the less. The ones I lost were all new additions. Last time I saw him the injured Loach was looking better, but I haven't seen him for a few days. I am not worried about it though, it is not unusual to not see him for a week or more. There is plenty of places to hide in my tank. 


> I can't wait to see some updated pictures of the tank!
> 
> From Alex.


I have a few pics right now, but I won't have a FTS until later, the lights don't come on until 6:00 PM

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have some new pics!! 

Here are some pictures of the flower I talked about.




























BRB W/ more
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Cool top down shot that came out nicely:









How about an emergant growth shot? Told you I need to trim 









Comments welcome,
Whiskey


----------



## javalee

Whiskey,
The fact that you had a massive die-off of fish makes me think it _wasn't  TB just because TB is a very slow-killer. I don't have all the specifics on your die-off so this is conjecture. It's a very slow growing bacteria, and is slow to spread as well. I bought an oto once who had TB and he soon began to lose weight and very slowly got a curvature of the spine (TB usually has objective symptoms like lesions, sunken belly, curved spine, bulging eyes) and took about 6 weeks to die! Only one other fish of mine later showed symptoms much later.

About the bacteria soup idea, Diana and I discussed this once because I was thinking the same thing. However, now that I think about the way ecology works, a healthy NPT would theoretically be less likely to have an explosion of "bad bacteria" just because it would be already heavily populated with a good biodiversity, leaving no niches for a single species to overwhelm. I think the biodiversidy of bacteria (coming mostly from the soil) would be key.

Anyway, enough of my theories, I LOVE your photos! Is that Ludwigia and Bacopa in the shot of the surface? Your Ludwigia (or the red stuff just under the surface) is so healthy and beautiful. I wish my emergent growth was as nice and straight as yours; mine end up falling over and sometimes sinking. Do you think it's because your water level is kept very constant?

Also, I'd like to know about your mystery flower too! That's one happy plant whatever it is.

I hope you have better luck with your fish in the future. Diana is right---a lot of the fish in stores these days look ill. I kept buying angels that died from Petsmart, and I finally started observing the new arrivals and found that every shipment had ich or tail rot. Yuck! Maybe you could find a good locally owned place?_


----------



## Miss Fishy

Beautiful photos, Whiskey! Those plants look like they are about to grow right out of the tank and take over the house, they look so healthy! 

From Alex.


----------



## javalee

Whiskey,

Is that pretty plant with the pinkish-red color and the flower an Alternanthera reineckii ''roseafolia'' ('Pink')? i just saw it on the Tropica website and thought it might be your flowering mystery plant.


----------



## whiskey

javalee said:


> Whiskey,
> The fact that you had a massive die-off of fish makes me think it _wasn't  TB just because TB is a very slow-killer. I don't have all the specifics on your die-off so this is conjecture. It's a very slow growing bacteria, and is slow to spread as well. I bought an oto once who had TB and he soon began to lose weight and very slowly got a curvature of the spine (TB usually has objective symptoms like lesions, sunken belly, curved spine, bulging eyes) and took about 6 weeks to die! Only one other fish of mine later showed symptoms much later.
> _


_
That is another take, I still haven't ruled out the idea of the water change caused this. I do water changes every week, but it does seem a bit odd that this happened right after one. The fish showed no outward sign of disease, just died. I figure the UV is not a bad idea though, with all the hatcheries that have Fish TB and don't care it seems almost imposable that my fish wouldn't have it.




About the bacteria soup idea, Diana and I discussed this once because I was thinking the same thing. However, now that I think about the way ecology works, a healthy NPT would theoretically be less likely to have an explosion of "bad bacteria" just because it would be already heavily populated with a good biodiversity, leaving no niches for a single species to overwhelm. I think the biodiversidy of bacteria (coming mostly from the soil) would be key.

Click to expand...

Now that is an interesting point, I hadn't thought of it that way. What you are saying is that we created such a great place for bacteria to live that they are always fighting over nutrients, space, and food. This ensures that no one strain could ever become dominate and take over enough to cause a problem. Something to ponder for sure, in this case the UV might actually be a bad idea because it is making allot more available, bacteria ARE cannibals and the dead ones shooting out of there are like thanksgiving dinner!



Anyway, enough of my theories, I LOVE your photos! Is that Ludwigia and Bacopa in the shot of the surface? Your Ludwigia (or the red stuff just under the surface) is so healthy and beautiful. I wish my emergent growth was as nice and straight as yours; mine end up falling over and sometimes sinking. Do you think it's because your water level is kept very constant?

Click to expand...

This is actually becoming a serious problem as I post more pictures of this tank, I have no idea what most of my plants are called, I simply walk into a store and buy the one that looks cool. Thanks for the complement though  The trick to having the emergent growth go up so straight is to have a bunch of plants at the surface holding each other up, if you have just one it will flop over but with support away it goes. Constant water level does help some though, my tank only drops 1 inch before I am topping it off, I HATE being able to see the water level below the tank trim, it is one of my pet peeves. I will never own a trim less tank for this reason!



Also, I'd like to know about your mystery flower too! That's one happy plant whatever it is.

Click to expand...

Indeed it is, and that makes a happy me  



I hope you have better luck with your fish in the future. Diana is right---a lot of the fish in stores these days look ill. I kept buying angels that died from Petsmart, and I finally started observing the new arrivals and found that every shipment had ich or tail rot. Yuck! Maybe you could find a good locally owned place?

Click to expand...

Thanks, I do hope I do better as well, but only time will tell. I think the monster 4 foot UV will help, it looks really cool below the tank, like it is carrying a bomb :lol:

Thanks,
Whiskey_


----------



## whiskey

Miss Fishy said:


> Beautiful photos, Whiskey! Those plants look like they are about to grow right out of the tank and take over the house, they look so healthy!
> 
> From Alex.


I am not sure they aren't trying to take over the house Feed ME!!!!

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

javalee said:


> Whiskey,
> 
> Is that pretty plant with the pinkish-red color and the flower an Alternanthera reineckii ''roseafolia'' ('Pink')? i just saw it on the Tropica website and thought it might be your flowering mystery plant.


Might be, do you have a link? I am really bad with names.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I have *TWO* very exciting things to report!!

First the flower, it bloomed!!









It does not seem to last long though, I took that picture before I went to bed last night, and today it is already wilted. That's alright though, I think it is VERY cool to get a flower off of a plant I didn't know could, hopefully the other buds will bloom in the following days!

TWO: I HAVE A BABY TETRA!!!! I literally noticed it 1/2 hour ago! It is far too small to be able to tell what kind though, so small in fact it can freely swim in and out of my nets, all but one, the breeding net that I bought after the adult Tiger barbs ate my baby Tiger Barb. This is the second time I got an accidental egg layer baby! This is totally new to me, and very exciting, I am keeping a sharp eye out for more, but I think the other fish probably ate the babies as soon as they hatched. I put this baby in the breeding net with a bunch of stem plant clippings so it will feel at home, the breeding net is a good size too so it should be plenty comfortable. The only thing I have to feed it is blender mush, so I hope it eats that.

There is no chance of me getting a picture, sorry, it is far to small, well under 1/8 inch long, but I hope it grows so I can get you a picture then. My tank can't be too messed up if I am getting baby egg laying fish.

Whiskey


----------



## plantbrain

Get some wood or more rock and consider carefully the layout with these elements.

Otherwise it's a trim job mainly with stem plants to maintain the shape.
Dutch styles can work well if you have good plant choice if you want to avoid hardscape materials.

Trace out the foot print, and play with some wood/rock layouts for a day or two.

See what you think.

Get more wood/rock than you think you need(like 1.5-2x as much).
Cover wood with ferns, mosses etc, branchy wood works best and blocks less light/saves more space for planting.

Once a hardscape is in place, it'll anchor the layout and design, using fewer weedy species that require more trimming is also wise(same applies for the Dutch style).


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## dwalstad

whiskey said:


> I figure the UV is not a bad idea though, with all the hatcheries that have Fish TB, it seems almost impossible that my fish wouldn't have it.
> 
> What you are saying is that we created such a great place for bacteria to live that they are always fighting over nutrients, space, and food. This ensures that no one strain could ever dominate and take over enough to cause a problem.
> 
> I think the monster 4 foot UV will help, it looks really cool below the tank, like it is carrying a bomb :lol:
> Whiskey


Hi Whiskey,

Glad to see that you're back. I'd like to hear more about how your fish are doing.

Note, that I've kind of moved my discussion of TB over to another folder in the "Fish in the Planted Aquarium/Diseased Fish". I can better focus on the subject over there.

Diana


----------



## whiskey

plantbrain said:


> Get some wood or more rock and consider carefully the layout with these elements.
> 
> Otherwise it's a trim job mainly with stem plants to maintain the shape.
> Dutch styles can work well if you have good plant choice if you want to avoid hardscape materials.
> 
> Trace out the foot print, and play with some wood/rock layouts for a day or two.
> 
> See what you think.
> 
> Get more wood/rock than you think you need(like 1.5-2x as much).
> Cover wood with ferns, mosses etc, branchy wood works best and blocks less light/saves more space for planting.
> 
> Once a hardscape is in place, it'll anchor the layout and design, using fewer weedy species that require more trimming is also wise(same applies for the Dutch style).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I don't understand, do you want me to tear down the tank?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

dwalstad said:


> Hi Whiskey,
> 
> Glad to see that you're back. I'd like to hear more about how your fish are doing.
> 
> Note, that I've kind of moved my discussion of TB over to another folder in the "Fish in the Planted Aquarium/Diseased Fish". I can better focus on the subject over there.
> 
> Diana


Good deal, thanks for checking in. I will go look for this and hopefully have something intelligent to add.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Bad news gang, I lost the ballast that fires the 2 centre bulbs on my tank. They have been out for 3 days, and now I have a spare. I am about to try and get back there and hook it up, but I didn't leave myself much room, wish me luck!

Whiskey


----------



## TAM

Are you back to FULL light? 

Sure have enjoyed this thread. Thanks for the pictures and updates.

TAM


----------



## whiskey

TAM said:


> Are you back to FULL light?


Almost, I got the 2 bulbs in the center fixed, but some how in the process I managed to damage one of the fixtures on the far right, right now I have 5 of 6 bulbs running, and I am not sure exactly why.


TAM said:


> Sure have enjoyed this thread. Thanks for the pictures and updates.
> 
> TAM


Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it.

Whiskey


----------



## Teeleton

Wow.. I just read this whole thread. Lots of elements to this thread that I've been wanting to do for a long time. I'm a bit of a tinker myself, and love playing with electronic gadgets. I just took my plastic planted 55ga of the past 7 years down, and plan on rebuilding it as an NPT. I know exactly what you mean about getting excited about the baby fish. We had some red mollies that would produce a couple fry about every 6 months for a couple years, and they would almost always grow to a good size. I'm headed to the store tomorrow to size up which plants I want and get planning in earnest. Reading this thread has only fueled the excitement.

Teeleton


----------



## Teeleton

Quick question.... How are the vertical pieces attached to the upper and lower frames? From the photo, there doesn't seem to be anything holding them in place? 










Teeleton


----------



## Miss Fishy

I was wondering about that too! Maybe they are glued together. 

From Alex.


----------



## Chris Noto

I'm guessing that it is a couple of long screws into the end grain of each upright element. If you look closely you'll see what look like holes drilled in the top surface of that upper frame, one hole vertically in each two by four. Long wood screws would do the job. Still, it's just a guess...


----------



## whiskey

Sorry guys, I haven't been around in a while. I really thought everyone lost intrest in this thread so I just let it die.

The vertical peices are held in place by long screws that go through the top and bottom frame just like Chris said. They are also heavily held in place by the glue and screws on all the plywood sides. Those are a very important part of my stand, they are the peices that that hold up the whole tank!

Glad I could help Teeleton, be sure to take pics of the setup you are planning! If I get the raise I asked for I am going to be doing the same thing with a 24X24X24 custom made glass cube. This one will be a reef tank, and I will build the stand 36X36X36 so I can have room on the back of both sides for my switches, skimmer, PH controller, temp controler, etc that will be displaid through glass doors behind the tank.

I have never made a glass door before, it should be interesting. With the stand design I can run the stand all the way to the hood too giving it a complete look.

Thanks all, don't be afraid to ask any more questions you might have,
Whiskey


----------



## Miss Fishy

I certainly didn't lose interest, Whiskey! What is happening in the tank at the moment? How are the fish doing? Did the injured Loach recover? 

From Alex. 

P.S. WANT MORE PHOTOS! :biggrin:


----------



## TAM

Miss Fishy said:


> I certainly didn't lose interest, Whiskey! What is happening in the tank at the moment? How are the fish doing? Did the injured Loach recover?
> 
> From Alex.
> 
> P.S. WANT MORE PHOTOS! :biggrin:


I second Alex's motions! More pictures, please.

TAM


----------



## whiskey

Thanks for the replies!

Pics will have to wait  I just sold a bunch of plants to a LFS so the tank is looking a bit ratty.

It continues to be very difficult for me to keep any fish in this tank (except for babies born in this tank), I added about 30 Neon Tetras about 2 months ago and today there are only 5 left. I found one problem, and that was that my Killifish was eating them hole, so I ate him. (not really  ) 

The UV is still on this tank, Emperor Aquatics 40W UV running 24/7 so I am reluctant to think it is a disease, it may have been the Killifish all along, but I guess I need to pick up a couple of fish to find out.

Another thought is the CAE, he is about 5-6 years old (or that's how long I have had him) and they are known to attack fish when they get older, any thoughts?

The baby I found earlier survived, and turned out to be a Zebra Danio, very cool! He is about half size now and happily cruising the tank.

I haven't seen the Loaches in a long time  Any of them.

Thanks for the interest,
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I know this thread is long dead, but I wanted to come back for an update, end it on a upswing, you know?

I solved the problem with loosing new fish!!!! I found out it was the declornator I was using, it is probably the reason I lost my oscar as well 

I bought 5 glass blood fin tetras, and 2 tiny puffers two weeks ago and today they are all still alive! Why it mostally effected new fish I'll never know, but I guess I am not too worried about it either, now that the problem is solved.

I also just ripped up all the stem plants in my tank to put them back into groupings to grow back up again. The tank was becoming very entangled and there was no flow getting to most parts of the tank, this was causing a bit of algae in the really dead spots, and not helping with overall plant health. The tank accually looks kinda slick right now, just 2 huge islands, one looks like a sord growing out of 30,000 anubias plants, the other looks like a huge java fern growing out of 10,000 anubias plants. There is driftwood in there, you just can't see it, what ever happend to anubias being slow growers? 

Whiskey


----------



## epicfish

Have any new pictures to post? =)


----------



## turbomkt

whiskey said:


> I solved the problem with loosing new fish!!!! I found out it was the declornator I was using


How about mentioning which one so if someone else see's the same results they can be warned?



whiskey said:


> what ever happend to anubias being slow growers?


We started adding PO4


----------



## whiskey

epicfish said:


> Have any new pictures to post? =)


Hey this thread is not dead after all!!!! 

Not right now, the tank was perty cloudy last night due to ripping up all the stem plants, but I'll see if I can't get something when I go home tonight. It looks ratty, but has an intresting appeal due to the islands.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

turbomkt said:


> How about mentioning which one so if someone else see's the same results they can be warned?


Hmm, I'll have to get the name off the bottle when I get home. From what the LFS guy told me this stuff is NOT for being used as a declorinator (even though they had them by all the decloranators) What this product is supposed to be for is use after using chlorine bleach on tank ordainments, or after using chlorine bleach on a pond to remove all traces of the bleach. It is not made for use with tap water, doesn't deal with heavy metals, doesn't deal with chloramine, just pure chlorine.

I am ticked off, I told the guy that he should not have it stocked right next to the "Stress Coat" if that was the case. The only reason I even thought to ask about it is I smelled it and it smelled like rotting food.

Too bad too, because this one bottle for only $20, treats a whopping 30,000 gallons!! That's why I bought it, well that and it says "dechlorineator" right on the front of the bottle 



> We started adding PO4


Ya, I don't really do that anymore, my tap water has enough 

Whiskey


----------



## TAM

whiskey said:


> Hey this thread is not dead after all!!!!
> Whiskey


Hey Whiskey, nice to see you back. Looking forward to the new pictures. op2:

Tammy


----------



## whiskey

TurboMKT:
The decloranator I was using is called Tropical Science Highly Concentrated Chlorine Remover.

I have a pic, some things look bad because they have been shadowed for so long, like that poor sord, and remember I just tore most of the plants out to regroup but I kinda like it accually.










What do you think?

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Hey Tam! Ya, somebody sent me a PM asking whatever happened to my tank and it got me thinking about it. I decided to update the thread anyway, even though nobody had posted in so long, it may not be polite to dig it up, but I felt my update is enough of a reason.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Can anyone tell me what a plant point is? I seem to have allot of them.

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## turbomkt

Plant points are earned by posting, etc. If you've made a donation that allows you to buy pets, plant points can be used for buying food and other stuff.


----------



## whiskey

Thanks Turbo.

I have another question, what happens when this thread hits 10,000 views? It is currently at 9,915 and there doesn't appear to be space for another digit.

Who would have thought my little thread could hit 359 replys, and 9,915 views? 

I had a blast with it. Oh and BTW, I finally managed to fix the problem with the temprature controller, it is working perfect now, and you can see it on the left of the hood there. It has the green and red readouts.

Whiskey


----------



## John N.

Still a great looking tank! I'm glad you decided to continue to update it. 
The margins for the "view count" automatically expands to fit in 5 digits (10,000 views).

Do keep us posted. 

-John N.


----------



## TAM

Whiskey,

After less shade those plants will perk up. Nice to have the temp control fixed. Keep the updates coming and we'll keep viewing the entire process. I like it.

Tammy


----------



## cs_gardener

I'm glad to see this thread is back and your tank is still looking good. Everything seems healthy and the basic layout is still great although that one column of green plants near the center does look a bit funky.  Don't wait so long to update us on your progress! I enjoy your tank and your style too much for you to be MIA so long.


----------



## whiskey

Ya that stand of plants does look kinda goofy huh? Oh well, there stem plants, they will fill back in before you know it.

I'll be around, at least as long as there is still interest in this thread,
Whiskey


----------



## cs_gardener

I know how it is with waiting for plants to fill in. Right now I have rabbit ears in one of my tanks because I only have 2 Cryptocorne balansae leaves. One plant just took off and the rest are about 2 to 3 inches tall. I sure hope the other C balansae establish themselves soon as it just looks plain silly right now.


----------



## whiskey

That's one thing I did when I tore it all up, I moved most of my crypts out into the light. Before I had them as a sort-of midground plant, and they would get badly shaded by the stem plants, overall they all suffered from it. Now I am going to use one really low growing varity as a forground, and the higher ones just behind that and get rid of what I had for that purpose. I think it will look cool when it fills in. Crypts usually grow fast if given the chance to, plus my LFS really likes it when I bring some in for store credit.

And their just cool plants 

Whiskey


----------



## cs_gardener

Crypts are definitely cool plants, I have them everywhere it seems like. I'm trying to grow the balansae as a forest wall in the back of a 20 gallon tank and nothing is shading them, they are just a relatively recent addition. 

One problem with viewing pictures of tanks is you can't see all the great details. Looking back at your picture I can pick out some crypts, but I just noticed the overall layout the first time I looked. Well, I also noted the health of the plants, and my pangs of jealousy 'cause I'd love to have a tank like that.


----------



## whiskey

Ya, this tank is great, it is definitally the center peice of the house (On setup it kicked my TV out of the center spot).

The other thing with Crypts is the varity, if I ever were to setup a Speices tank it would be a Crypt tank. I think you could fill a very large tank with crypts and make it look just amazing.

Whiskey


----------



## cs_gardener

whiskey said:


> Ya, this tank is great, it is definitally the center peice of the house (On setup it kicked my TV out of the center spot).
> 
> Whiskey


That shows you've got your priorities right! 

My 3 aquariums are definitely focal points in my living room. The tv has been relegated to serving as a plant stand. Unless its turned on, your eyes just slide right by it.


----------



## flagg

I don't think the thread ever died! I think that as tanks kinda settle in, there's not much reason to update as frequently as when a tank is first set up. I'm glad to see your tank is doind well. What fish do you have in there these days? Yours reminds me that I need to update my 30 gal. too... 

-ricardo


----------



## whiskey

cs_gardener said:


> That shows you've got your priorities right!
> 
> My 3 aquariums are definitely focal points in my living room. The tv has been relegated to serving as a plant stand. Unless its turned on, your eyes just slide right by it.


 My TV is between my 125 Saltwater SPS Reef, and my 180 gallon Planted tank, it serves very nicely as a place to put my Model Clipper ship.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

flagg said:


> I don't think the thread ever died! I think that as tanks kinda settle in, there's not much reason to update as frequently as when a tank is first set up. I'm glad to see your tank is doind well. What fish do you have in there these days? Yours reminds me that I need to update my 30 gal. too...
> 
> -ricardo


I have a handfull of tetras, and some zebra danios, the fish load is very low right now, far, far less than 1 inch/gallon, something like 20, 1 inch fish if that. This is all because of the problem keeping fish I had, though my 5 year+ white skirt tetras all made it through un-scathed.

Thanks!
Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I am not sure what to do at this point accually, the massive trimback of the tank got rid of the little bit of algae that was creeping in due to lack of flow, but a few weeks later the algae came back big time. 

Right now, I have allot of this green hair algae sort-of draped around the tank. I am thinking there may be a couple of reasons for this:

1. Some (all but one) of the PC bulbs are now over 2 years old, and have long lost their output and spetrum.

2. During the re-scape I ripped up allot of rooted plants to move them, this brought allot of the soil up with it, and though I did a 95% water change maybe it effected nutreant levels in the water coulum by the soil that settled out.

3. Not enough fish/feeding to keep the plants growing rapidly enough.

NOTE: I do still inject CO2 at a very low level, but I stopped dosing any kind of ferts a very long time ago, probably on the tank's fourth week in operation. I have always done about 50% water changes every 2 weeks.

Normally I would know just what to do, figure out which fert I am not dosing enough of and dose more of it, but since this is a natural tank I am at a bit of a loss, I don't dose ferts so I can't adjust them  .

It should be noted that there are no algae eaters in this tank, only snails.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Whiskey


----------



## onemyndseye

Hey whiskey.... been following this thread for awhile  nice setup you have there !

On getting rid of the hair algae:

a 4 day blackout has helped me in the past...coupled with lots of water changes (which I realize in a tank this size can be a tall order)... I believeas the stuff dies off it turns loose and is carried around the tank by currents and can/will take up somewhere else.... lots of water changes helps fight this.

By Blackout I mean: No tank lights (not even moonlight) for 4 days and drape a blanket over the tank to make sure no room light make it into the tank ... it doesnt take much for algae to survive, and hair aglae a tough customer.

I would start by manually removing as much as you can AS you are draining the tank for a water change. Use the siphon to vacume the algae directly from the tank along with surrounding debris. Followed by a 4 day blackout. Follow up with another water change while again manually removing any that you see (probably along with the leafs (if any) its attached to)

After thats done... dont touch it for awhile. No water changes etc. Youll want to create the most stable conditions possible. This will give the 

That being said... Ottos, Nerites, and Tiger barbs have been siad to eat the stuff though I can only vouch for the Nerites personally, and even then only by vaugely saying that I've never seen the stuff take hold well in my shrimp tank which contains several large Olive Nerites.

Fluctuating CO2 levels have also be said to cause this sort of algea outbreak. To that I can say I've seen in the worst in my 10Gal thats gets DIY CO2. DIY being farily unstable seems to back up this claim... I'm sure you are pressurized with a 180Gal but do you levels stay pretty constant?

In the wild, hair algae seems to occur mostly in fast moving currents and indeed I've seen it the most in tanks that have strong water movment (which I favor using) and in places in the tank where the current is strongest....such as at the output of HOB filters.. That leads me to wonder if shutting down all filtration and water movment for the duration of the Blackout treatment would help. Maybe it needs the current to propagate..?.. 

Anyways, I hope some of my rambling help you out 

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru

My 125 NPT used to have hair algae, mainly in the back on the window side of the tank. I removed all the stem plants cuz it was impossible to get the hair algae out with them there and now it's just sag subulata, hairgrass and jungle vals. That makes removing hair algae easy. I also added a flagfish, a flying fox, some rosy barbs and some ameca splendens and there's a lot less hair algae happening now. 

The male ameca splendens was getting too aggressive, so I moved him and some of the females out last week. I also moved most of the rosy barbs to a 55 NPT I set up a few months ago that's hair algae city. They were getting nippy on the angel's fins. So we'll see if it's the barbs cleaning things up. They're ok fish. kinda nippy and kinda hyper like danios.

I really don't mind hair algae. My goldies love to eat it, so it's a good nutrient remover and free natural food for the goldies.


----------



## Jane in Upton

Hey Whiskey!

I've enjoyed the updates, even if the tank is at more of a stable point. 

Are you changing the 'scape at all (that large group of remaining plants after the major stem plant removal)??

Its always a thrill to find a tiny baby fish! Very cool! Any sign of the loaches, or do you think they're gone? How's Mr. Betta doing in his huge kingdom?

I'm definitely still enjoying this thread - its a great read, and I'm glad to have "caught up" on it having been away awhile myself. 

Do you still have plans to build another setup for your saltwater? And how are the saltwater stands different from the freshwater - just more protective coatings, or brass hardware, or something else?

Good to catch up on this thread, Whiskey, and as always, THANK You for the updates and pictures!
-Jane


----------



## whiskey

Hi all! It's been a while since I have been around. Thanks for the replys!

I'm afraid the tank is not in the greatest shape. I think the hair algae is a symptom rather than a problem in itself. I think the root problem is that plant growth has slowed, and now almost stopped. I used to have to trim regularly, like every two weeks, at this point I haven't had to trim the tank in months, and there is almost no growth in that time.

I still think the two+ year old PC bulbs are to blame for all this, and I really need to get off my hump and order some new ones.

I am accually thinking about replacing all the fixutres over this tank with NO foressents, shoplights from HD. The bulbs would only cost $50 to replace, and are much more readly available. I was going to use 2 (2*40W) and 2 (2*20W). This would be much more cost effective in the end because replacing 6*55W PC bulbs costs a fortuine. *Never mind, if you read below, I just replaced the PC's, I think it's better that way.*

The SW tank is now in my 125, the SW stands are different because we use a big sump, this means an opening to slide it in and out (See the begining for the sump door) Also they are reef ready tanks, with overflows and closed loop holes, and the assoicated holes for them. SW stands are also usually much taller alowing room for skimmers, CA reactors, Phosphate reactors, drivers, controllers, etc.

The Beta is dead, died with a number of other fish, I'm not sure what all is going on with that, I lost some of the fish from the last lot, but not nearly as many as I used to.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Oh, and my tank doesn't really have very much water flow compaired to my previous tanks, and I have Pressurized CO2 injection, but I always kept it at a low level because this is a lower light tank.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

Actually, I think I will just order 6 new PC bulbs. With the NO I won't be getting as much light, and I'm not sure how well they will penitrate 24" down.

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

And there ordered, how's that for getting off my hump?

Thinking back I think some of the bulbs over this tank are actually 3+ years running 

Hopefully my assumption was right and the new bulbs will turn this tank around.

Whiskey


----------



## onemyndseye

You probably are not far off....

I have my suspicions about Light spectrums influence over algea growth 

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## cs_gardener

Let us know how the new lights work for you. I bet your plants love them.


----------



## whiskey

I think they will be a huge help. I have that Lux meter remember, and I have found that 55W PC bulbs drop 30% of their light output in 4-7 months over my reef tanks.

I have never tested 6700K bulbs, but I have no reason to think there any better.

Immagine how bad these bulbs must be  I should have done this a long time ago.

Thanks!
Whiskey


----------



## gibmaker

do not use lacquer if want it to withstand water, use a spar varnish, I have been in industrial and residential coatings for about 8 years now and am typing this behind the counter at the store I work at right now


----------



## whiskey

gibmaker said:


> do not use lacquer if want it to withstand water, use a spar varnish, I have been in industrial and residential coatings for about 8 years now and am typing this behind the counter at the store I work at right now


Sorry, I just checked, the side of the can said "Spar Varnish" Were a bit past that now though 

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

I just put in the replacement bulbs I ordered and WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like walking out of a room lit by 1 60W light bulb into the desert noon day sun! I can't even beleive how much of a difference it made.

My reef tank doesn't look so brite anymore. I would be willing to bet that the light is way more than 3 times briter in the planted tank.

Whiskey


----------



## Jane in Upton

OK Whiskey,

you've motivated me to go change out the 1 yr, 3 mo old bulb on my 15g! Bright is good!

I'll bet plant growth perks right up. Thanks for the updates!
-Jane


----------



## fish newb

Jane in Upton said:


> OK Whiskey,
> 
> you've motivated me to go change out the 1 yr, 3 mo old bulb on my 15g! Bright is good!
> 
> I'll bet plant growth perks right up. Thanks for the updates!
> -Jane


Same, I think tis the time to get new bulbs after a year.....

Tank is amazing!!! Like WOW! 

But no moss? only thing that's missing!

-Andrew


----------



## whiskey

Jane in Upton said:


> OK Whiskey,
> 
> you've motivated me to go change out the 1 yr, 3 mo old bulb on my 15g! Bright is good!
> 
> I'll bet plant growth perks right up. Thanks for the updates!
> -Jane


Good deal! Glad your replacing your bulbs,...

The plant growth has perked up, I can't beleave I didn't do this long ago!!!! The only remaining question is if this will kill the algae, but one thing is for sure, so far, much better 

Whiskey


----------



## whiskey

fish newb said:


> Same, I think tis the time to get new bulbs after a year.....
> 
> Tank is amazing!!! Like WOW!
> 
> But no moss? only thing that's missing!
> 
> -Andrew


Thanks!!! There is no moss because for whatever reason I can't keep moss,... Every time I have tried it withers away. I imagine this is because it doesn't root into the substrate to get nutreants, but it could just as easily be an alopathy thing.

Whiskey


----------



## Tiapan

interesting, moss is usually one of those things you cant get rid of. anyway your tank is incredable. i noticed you said you had few fish a few pages back and that you had hair alge. i think a bulk order of amano shrimp would be the best as long as all the tiger barbs are out. if its danios, neons, and rasboras then you have nothing to worry about. now if it was congos tetras and big rainbowfish (i think a big school of Reds would show real good against all the green) then shrimp not the answer. but they will definately eat hair alge. and fast if you get enough of them.


----------



## whiskey

Hello All!

I wanted to report that this tank was torn down to be made salt about 1 month ago. Today I finally got the reef system fully operational. I always knew this day would come,.. but I still hated to rip the planted tank down.

I am not out of the planted tank hobby,.. but I did downgrade signifagantally,.. Here is my new tank:









Is anyone interested in photos of the new reef system? If so I'll snap some pics and put them up here.

Whiskey


----------



## dt78

I'm interested in seeing some reef pictures. I know this isn't a reef forum, but I have been thinking of attempting a reef setup for sometime now. 

I just saw this thread for the first time today. Someday, I would like to have both a large reef aquarium and a large planted freshwater tank. I think it would be kind of a neat look to have them on opposite ends of a large room. I would like to build matching stands stands for them so they look good together and yet are completely different, so it was nice to see the process you went through with your setup.

P.S. I really liked your planted tank before you tore it down. The new one is nice too, I just like the looks of larger more rectangular tanks better.


----------



## juan5pronto

I thought about building my own cabinet but after considering the cost of the materials and tmy time building it,I decided that it was cheaper to buy one.


----------



## Juan-Carlos

Wow, 

I just spent about an hur on this thread heh!! Great thread kept me entertained for a while  Wiskey - you have some great tanks!! And about tearing down that planted for the reef - Hey it is what it is. I've done it before LOL! I currently have a 600 Gallon Saltwater system. Just like the planted tanks, the refs are addictive! Best of luck with the new reef setup, and i'd Love to see some pics!!

Kindest Regards,
-Jc
Miami, Florida


----------



## monkeyruler90

dang, i just finished reading this. and its been an emotional rollacoster, between the actual setup the fish dying the blooms of flowers, i've been so pumped to actually get a bigger tank now. but it was like a sad movie. i hated the ending. tearing down the planted tank? this made me very sad. well atleast you enjoyed those 180 gallons for the best you could. i would looove to see the new reef water set up. i've wanted to venture into saltwater but because of the cost i've restrained myself. well good luck to you, hope everything goes well.


----------

