# The joys of owning your own business



## TAB

A couple wanted me to build a built-in to match thier existing one. No big deal, really rather easy, just time. So they bring in a bunch of pics and some moulding so that I can match it. they desided they did not want to pay the $50 for me to come out and measure thier opening. I do my whole speal about how if your measurements are wrong, you still own it... make them sign a waiver, drew up a contract document... blah, blah, blah.

Fast forward two weeks. The day after They pick up, I get a phone call. Guess what? It didn't fit  They say its 1/2" too big.( some one measured before they hung the dry wall  ) They are really pissed off and want me to build another one. its like I told them, you gave me your measurments, I built it 1/2" smaller, just like it shows in the contract document. I'm sorry, but I can not build you another one with out charging you for it. I Went to thier home free of charge to see if I could do anything for them.... gave them a very easy solution(swaping out the 5/8 dryway for 3/8 or 1/4) Gave them a price to fix it, thats when things went ugly... they started saying they were going to sue me. Walked out to the truck, got my lawyers biz card handed it to them, told them if you want to contact me, call her.

Fast forward to this morning... went to go cash thier check, they stoped payment on it. So I spent most of the morning at my lawyer office. Hopefully, the nasty letter forces them to pay up, and fast. otherwise its going to cost them alot more when they lose in court.( its not if, its when.)


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## MagpieTear

First thing I learned when doing side work (random pieces of furniture, display cases) was to change my terms to 50% deposit upon signing the contract. They always believe it is for materials and tooling, but it is also for cases like yours. At least then, at least all I lost was time, not materials, which I baseline at around 30% of final cost. I got burnt by a local school district for about $3k. After that episode, I won't start work until the deposit has cleared.


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## TAB

I took the legal max for me to take ( $1k) I've been burned more then once as well, but I have never had some one stop payment on a check. It just amazes me that people don't think about what they are doing. I mean $50 to have me come out and measure on a something that cost $4500 bucks in a no brainer. I figured from the get go it would not fit, but I was not going to argue with them...You can only try to help some one so much.

All ready gave my bonding and the CSCB a heads up with whats going on, just in case they go after my bond and lic. Thankfully I have a real pit bull for a lawyer. the thing is if I could fix it I would, but In order to do that I would have to remake all the doors, drawers, order a new cut glass mirror. Might as well build a new one if I'm going to do all that. Normally when I do this type of stuff I'm the GC on the job, but when times get tough you put your shingle out and work for who ever is willing to pay you.


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## Tex Gal

Incredible! No one wants to assume responsibility for their own actions. Sorry about that! I wouldn't be surprised if there's still some way for them to wiggle out of it. Our society has trouble holding people responsible.


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## TAB

The contract and waiver are pretty much air tight. I would just have to prove I built it as per the contract. Thats pretty easy as I have a plans and a cut list. As well as I have measurments from when I went to thier home. Its really not a very big deal, $100 in drywall work and it would fit perfect... I told them as much.


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## niko

Hmm... 4500/50...

It sounds like you could have avoided trouble that you saw coming. Why didn't you wave the $50 trip charge if the total cost of the job was $4500? You would have gotten a happy customer, satisfaction from the job well done, piece of mind, hopefully more leads... And why didn't they ask you to wave the $50 when you will be paid $4500? 

Now, because of $50, you all are in a mess. 

I still think that if the customer agreed on the possibility of the measurements being wrong they need to just accept the facts. Especially if you where helpful with advice how to go about the problem.

Now that all is said and done and more fun is on the way the more important question is will you do things the same way if you face the same scenario? I think you shouldn't. Let the pitbull go hungry for a while 

--Nikolay


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## eco-mod

Tex Gal said:


> Incredible! No one wants to assume responsibility for their own actions. Sorry about that! I wouldn't be surprised if there's still some way for them to wiggle out of it. Our society has trouble holding people responsible.


What? Mortgages? Bailout plans? Our society doesn't have a problem!!! It's not like there are way too many lawyers out there getting people payments for 'damages' or out of stupid situations they ultimately got themselves involved with!

As an automotive tech, I see too many people who just won't take real ownership of their vehicles and think everything should be taken care of for them by someone else. We'll tell someone that they need such and such fixed but they just want an oil change. Then a week later when it acts up or leaves them stranded it is our fault. People come in upset they have a slightly low tire, or are out of washer fluid... You CAN do somethings for yourself!

It took me almost half an hour to type this because the horrible shows on MTV that my GF watches piss me off so much that I can't help but voice how incredibly retarded and scripted their 'reality' shows are... GRAWAAAAAAAR!...


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## kid creole

For $4500, I would have gone to their house and measured, not tried to haggle for $50, JMHO.

I would also, at this point, probably buy the $100 in drywall myself and fix it rather than lose future business.

Again, JMHO.


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## TAB

it was not about $50, it was about the guy assuring me that all his measurements were perfect and being a **** about it. After 5 mins talking with them I got the "I don't want to work for these people" vibe. If times were better, I would have said no, or given them a price that was several times higher. Making it right by doing the drywall would have opened myself up to awhole another set of liabilitys, It also would not have been legal for me to do so. ( if I had done it in fact they could have sued me and won. I would also have my GC and sub lics suspended.)


I don't haggle, you haggle with me, my price goes up. This is my price, take it or leave it.


Oh yeah, the pit bull still ows me about 20k, but we have a nice agrement... I get free service until we are even. My lawyer is a very good freind of mine... she just happends to be a damn good lawyer.


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## BryceM

I feel for you. Sometimes there's just no helping people. I get the same thing in medicine.

I fix a broken shoulder, tell the guy to keep it in the dang sling and stay off of the motorbike. The idiot doesn't listen, the shoulder falls apart, he's in pain and upset and now won't pay his Dr. bill. I ruin his credit by sending him to collections. He thinks I'm a jerk. He tells everyone he knows. In a small community, that's a problem. Now I'll never get a chance to see his friends, family, or anyone he knows. What's the right thing? Write it off or hold him to the fire?

Who knows ??? ......... It's dang frustrating either way.


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## TAB

Sounds alot like me... I never fallow Doc advice... So why the hell am I'm marrying one in july?

I can always tell the people that own a small biz and those that don't.

That $4500 sounds nice, but I have already spent over 3k on this job as I had to buy a new cutter set to make the moulding... add in shop rent, power, ins, bonding, hazmat fees... I might net 1000-1100, then comes taxs... yay

I took in 838k last year and only ended up made 46k...


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## OneDaySale

TAB said:


> Sounds alot like me... I never fallow Doc advice... So why the hell am I'm marrying one in july?
> 
> I can always tell the people that own a small biz and those that don't.
> 
> That $4500 sounds nice, but I have already spent over 3k on this job as I had to buy a new cutter set to make the moulding... add in shop rent, power, ins, bonding, hazmat fees... I might net 1000-1100, then comes taxs... yay
> 
> I took in 838k last year and only ended up made 46k...


About the original situation - it really would be nice if people took responsibility for their own errors. But it seems to me that we see more and more examples like this one where people go to legal action to "fix" the problem.

About the self-run business - I totally agree with you. I'm a tutor and while I may log only 20 paid hours in many weeks, there is also travel time and prep time and replying to calls/email time, plus all the time spent handling HR type issues. These are the things my friends around the country forget when they hear my hourly rate.

BUT... it is nice to be your own boss too... I've worked in several corporate environments, and I don't think I can go back to the office politics...


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## surpera1

not to tell you what to do - but you could only take a job if you do the measurements personally - save yourself the inevitable hassle of bad measurements


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## BryceM

..... and maybe I should only operate on people who are known to follow their doctors directions.........

It just isn't that simple.


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## dawntwister

Well, I hope you aren't letting anger and pride to get the better of you. For sometimes going after what someone owes you can cost more.


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## JanS

BryceM said:


> ..... and maybe I should only operate on people who are known to follow their doctors directions.........
> 
> It just isn't that simple.


Good point Bryce. It's becoming sad that today's society is so difficult to work with and that there aren't better laws in place to stop this sort of thing in it's tracks. No one should have to go through all of the legal bells and whistles to just protect their good work.

I hope you are able to recover as much as you can in this case TAB....


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## kid creole

BryceM said:


> ..... and maybe I should only operate on people who are known to follow their doctors directions.........
> 
> It just isn't that simple.


Say what? I'm not following your logic.


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## Fishtory

Hi Tab,

I feel for ya! We own businesses too...it seems to never end.

I think you'd benefit from reading a book I wrote. Follow this link and scroll to the last book, that's the one. It might help you raise your profits a little. 

Good luck!


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## TAB

Well they paid up 9 am this morning( well actually yesterday, I'm just now getting home again)

I guess that nice little letter my lawyer wrote about turning them over to the DA, kind of made the diffrence. *wink*


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## kid creole

TAB said:


> Well they paid up 9 am this morning( well actually yesterday, I'm just now getting home again)
> 
> I guess that nice little letter my lawyer wrote about turning them over to the DA, kind of made the diffrence. *wink*


You should be very proud.


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## Fishtory

Grr. I hate having to go that far. Why don't they just *pay*, as they know they should?

Fortunately I have great customers right now. They pay up without any hassles.


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## Cocobid

One time in one of our stores a lady walked in and wanted to complain about something and wanted it replaced!!!
Kindly asked for her name etc. Not in the system.
Lady informed me that "oh you did not do this I just want someone to pay and be responsible for it" 
One not our customer, two not our problem, someone else's but wanted us to be responsible!!!
Unbelievable.
The Nerve of some people.


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## wmsvn

I feel your pain. 

My friends and I formed a software development. The first project was horrible. The contract was very vague so we end up spending lots of time change the product because the customer couldn't decide on what they want. After everything said and done, we end up making less than minimum wage. :-D

Now we are spending a little time up front with the customer to have the contract spells out what the customer want. It makes life much easier.


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## BryceM

Dishonesty breeds lawyers, lawsuits, threats, and lots of hard feelings. It's really too bad a handshake isn't good enough anymore.

I used to get real upset with the owners of the business I used to work for. I frequently thought they were stingy tight-wads who didn't appreciate their employees. Now that I have a business my take on the situation is 100% reversed. Until you're actually the one with the enormous overhead and constant financial pressure to remain afloat you can't really understand where TAB is coming from. I respect and appreciate my current employees enormously, but I really don't think they see it. It's a funny world.


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## kid creole

Dang. I can't believe how many fingerpointers I see with 3 pointed right back at themselves.


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## BryceM

Kid creole,

It seems that the sum total of your comments in this thread are meant to be sarcastic or confrontational. I don't see anything you've contributed to the discussion, pro or con to the OP's original issue.

If you're just trying to be argumentative, that's fine in many forums, but that's not really the style at APC. If you've got an actual point to make, make it. It would carry more weight without the sarcasm.


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## TAB

kid creole said:


> You should be very proud.


whats there to be proud of?

heaven forbid some one fallow thru on a contract they signed. In a perfect world they would have been nice to start with, I would have came out and measured, every thing would have fit and the check would have been good. Instead I had some one that was adamant that thier measurements were perfect and they knew what they were doing... Even if you negate that part, $100 in drywall work would have fixed every thing. It was not somthing I could legally do( 3 trade requirment for me to legally be able to do it unless you have sub lic, I don't for drywall/plaster)They could have just done that, but instead they stoped payment on the check. ( which is a crime, I could have pressed charges) They also could have gone thru the legall process by contacting my bonding company and the contracting board... they choose not to.


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## kid creole

BryceM said:


> Kid creole,
> 
> It seems that the sum total of your comments in this thread are meant to be sarcastic or confrontational. I don't see anything you've contributed to the discussion, pro or con to the OP's original issue.
> 
> If you're just trying to be argumentative, that's fine in many forums, but that's not really the style at APC. If you've got an actual point to make, make it. It would carry more weight without the sarcasm.


There have been a few posts about what a litigious society we have become, but the OP is the one who lawyered up and stuck a customer with something that didn't work. I wonder how this all would have worked out if the customer had a lawyer indebted to them for tens of thousands of dollars.



TAB said:


> Oh yeah, the pit bull still ows me about 20k, but we have a nice agrement... I get free service until we are even. My lawyer is a very good freind of mine... she just happends to be a damn good lawyer.


Forgive my sarcasm, but the OP just grossed me out with this statement.

My only point has been that it is ridiculous that for $4500 worth of work you haggle over measuring it. This just seems insane to me. I would never dream of not paying the $50, and I would never dream of not taking the measurement from the other side.

I'm not trying to bag on TAB, it just seems to me like this could be a learning opportunity for him.


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## TAB

have you read any of my posts? It does not matter if I did it for free or not.

The Home owner was adamant that his numbers were correct.

I lose money every time I am out of the shop when I have other things to do.

my shop rate is $95/ hour. It takes me _atleast_ a hour to go measure. So going out of the office I'm out $45 + gas and milage.

So please tell me why I should throw away $95/ hour to go measure on a job where I am lucky to net a grand *Before* taxs?

What should I have done instead?

break the law by doing illegal work? Went strait to the DA and reported it, of which they would have been arrested and charged with a felony?

Option 3, let my lawyer handle it. That is after all what I pay her for.

Which of the 3 would you have liked me to do?


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## brion0

When you meet a customer, an you feel like they have the potential to be a pita they often turn out to be. In hard times though, it's tough to turn any work a way. I deal in measurements that others give me often, the best I can do is make things exactly by the #s given to me. More than once I've had to go get the order I was given to show that what they have is what they asked for. If you run a small business knowing a good lawyer is necessary.


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## goldfishes

kid creole said:


> There have been a few posts about what a litigious society we have become, but the OP is the one who lawyered up and stuck a customer with something that didn't work. I wonder how this all would have worked out if the customer had a lawyer indebted to them for tens of thousands of dollars.
> 
> Forgive my sarcasm, but the OP just grossed me out with this statement.
> 
> My only point has been that it is ridiculous that for $4500 worth of work you haggle over measuring it. This just seems insane to me. I would never dream of not paying the $50, and I would never dream of not taking the measurement from the other side.
> 
> I'm not trying to bag on TAB, it just seems to me like this could be a learning opportunity for him.


It just makes good business sense for Tab to have a lawyer for instances in cases just like this one. Say that you went to work for your employer for a week. Your employer asks you to write a 10 page report on 8.5 x 11 with 1.25 margins. You do exactly what he asked of you and he gets the report and says the margins do not fit in his binder. He is now refusing to pay you for a week's worth of work. Is that fair?

Tab is essentially in a similar circumstance, but with a lot more work involved. The customers agreed to the specifications and signed a binding contract on those specifications. Why should he be denied payment for something he did to order?

And by the way, we had cabinets installed last year and they charged us $85 to measure. Guess what? They fit perfectly. Well worth the $85 for $12,000 worth of kitchen cabinets.


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## kid creole

TAB said:


> have you read any of my posts? It does not matter if I did it for free or not.
> 
> The Home owner was adamant that his numbers were correct.
> 
> I lose money every time I am out of the shop when I have other things to do.
> 
> my shop rate is $95/ hour. It takes me _atleast_ a hour to go measure. So going out of the office I'm out $45 + gas and milage.
> 
> So please tell me why I should throw away $95/ hour to go measure on a job where I am lucky to net a grand *Before* taxs?
> 
> What should I have done instead?
> 
> break the law by doing illegal work? Went strait to the DA and reported it, of which they would have been arrested and charged with a felony?
> 
> Option 3, let my lawyer handle it. That is after all what I pay her for.
> 
> Which of the 3 would you have liked me to do?


You could have charged $4,625, to pay for your time, gas, and mileage. If the guy didn't want it for that price, it is what it is. You make $100/hr, and have all the work you need, so I'm not sure why you took this job in the first place.


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## kid creole

sewingalot said:


> It just makes good business sense for Tab to have a lawyer for instances in cases just like this one. Say that you went to work for your employer for a week. Your employer asks you to write a 10 page report on 8.5 x 11 with 1.25 margins. You do exactly what he asked of you and he gets the report and says the margins do not fit in his binder. He is now refusing to pay you for a week's worth of work. Is that fair?
> 
> Tab is essentially in a similar circumstance, but with a lot more work involved. The customers agreed to the specifications and signed a binding contract on those specifications. Why should he be denied payment for something he did to order?
> 
> And by the way, we had cabinets installed last year and they charged us $85 to measure. Guess what? They fit perfectly. Well worth the $85 for $12,000 worth of kitchen cabinets.


What if my boss said that he wanted me to build cabinets for a nook in his office. He could measure them, or I could go out there and measure them, but if they didn't fit, he wouldn't pay for them. I think I'd either measure them or find another job if this one doesn't pay enough that it is worth my while. I deal with this sort of thing all the time at my job. I'm salaried, but if something important is happening at 8:00 on Sunday night, I'm in the plant to make sure it's done right, because it's my butt.


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## hooha

kid creole said:


> You could have charged $4,625, to pay for your time, gas, and mileage. If the guy didn't want it for that price, it is what it is. You make $100/hr, and have all the work you need, so I'm not sure why you took this job in the first place.


If you read his posts, of the $4500 he charged, a large part of it is costs of the job as well. It makes business sense to charge for the extras. If someone is going to 'cut corners' despite warnings from the contractor, it's his culpability in my opinion.



kid creole said:


> What if my boss said that he wanted me to build cabinets for a nook in his office. He could measure them, or I could go out there and measure them, but if they didn't fit, he wouldn't pay for them. I think I'd either measure them or find another job if this one doesn't pay enough that it is worth my while. I deal with this sort of thing all the time at my job. I'm salaried, but if something important is happening at 8:00 on Sunday night, I'm in the plant to make sure it's done right, because it's my butt.


It's very different when you aren't salaried. Say you were paid by the hour, your boss told you to go in at 8pm sunday night and and work for 3 hours without you getting paid. That's more similar to a person who owns his own business - time is money, and it really sucks if you're not reimbursed for it. 
Another analogy, say your boss told you you need to pay $1000 for the week to earn a salary of $2500/week. Then says he doesn't like your job and doesn't pay you for that week.....that's along the business risk of a person owning his own business.

I work in medicine with my father. He's been of the philosophy that "maybe they have relatives who have insurance or who pay" when it came to people not paying their bill. He has well into 7 figures that he's billed and never gotten paid for over the years. He doesn't write it off because as a business there is no tax break for 'losses'. The staff just reminds them there is an outstanding bill and asks them to make a payment if possible. I just saw someone in the office who still owes us $5000+ over the years. I don't think he's made a payment on it for almost 20 years, yet we still treat him under that philosophy. He always says "I'll make a payment next time when I get my disability check"....for 20 years....

In theory it's a nice thought, but in reality, a significant amount of these people's 'referrals' are more patients that won't pay/no insurance. I approach it as our charity work (in addition to the medicaid people we take care of).

Like Bryce said, it's not so simple.....


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## Tex Gal

Kid Creole, I think everyone understands your point of view. I think at this point you're just beating a dead horse. I think it's time to move on.....


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