# Automatic water change system design DIY



## Zapins

Well now, for once one of the APC site adds actually had something relevant that I could relate to for once... Sadly for them I saw their add too late for it to matter... bawhahahahaha 









My water change setup is relatively easy to make. The basic design involves three parts: *an overflow, a fresh water source, and safety features* to prevent overflowing. This water change system is continuous (meaning it runs 24 hours a day at a very slow rate). I have well water with no chlorine, or added softening salts. My tanks are conveniently placed in the basement where this water change system is set up.

*Overflow System*:
Essentially I built an overflow system out of 1.5" PVC pipe that hangs on the back of the tank, and then added a long corrugated garden drainage tube onto the PVC overflow and drilled through my sheet rock wall.

A little note on overflow systems: Overflow systems, for those that don't know, are just tubes with a U turn in them where the water permanently stays inside the U bend. What ends up happening is that if water on one side of the U bend is raised then water spills out the other end of the U bend. When the water level in the tank gets too high the excess spills over into the drainage pipe.

Overflow concept:









First overflow I built:









Second overflow I built:









From there the drain pipe runs into a 60g plastic tub from home depot that sits in the boiler room behind my tanks (on the other side of a sheet rock wall).

Drain pipe seen from behind the sheet rock wall:









Drain pipe and 60g sump bucket:









Once the water is in the bucket it must be pumped out on a regular basis. At first I bought a 1/3 hp sump pump off ebay, but as does occasionally happen it arrived broken, incapable of pumping water. The float valve that controlled the sump did work though and so instead of connecting the sump pump to the sump float switch I connected an aquarium pump to the float valve (very easy to do, I just plugged the pump into the float valve's power cord). Now what happens is: when the water level rises and triggers the sump float switch the aquarium pump turns on and pumps the water into a PVC pipe (1" diameter) that I have running outside. I had to drill through the concrete basement wall which entailed me renting a large rotary drill from home depot for 42$. The PVC waste water pipe runs into a gutter drainage system we have outside (preexisting system).

Inside the sump:









Waste water PVC pipe through concrete basement wall:









*Fresh water source:*
The second part of my water change system involves getting fresh water into the tank. I chose to use ice-kit maker saddle valve taps (cheaply bought from home depot) because they are very easy to install and can be adjusted to allow a few drops an hour to several dozen gallons per hour through them. I installed two saddle valve taps per fish tank on the water change system. One valve was put into the cold water pipe, the other valve in the hot water pipe. I joined the tubes with a 3-way easy connect joiner and placed another valve in the hot water line before the 3-way connect joiner so that I can precisely control the hot water going into my tank.

Saddle valves connected to house water mains:









3 way connector and hot water valve:









The water tube is then fed through the wall and connected to a small mount which I built on the side of my tank out of PVC pipe. The mount holds a plastic float valve. The water tube is connected to the float valve. I came up with two designs, I prefer the second one 










Second mount design:









Second mount underside:









Second mount in tank:









*Safety features:*
The first safety feature I installed was to add a float valve to the incoming water tube. The float sits inside the fish tank and is attached with a PVC pipe mount (see above). The purpose of this float valve is just in case the overflow gets clogged for whatever reason (leaves, dead fish, etc...) the incoming water will start to rise and then push the float valve up, stopping the incoming water before the tank overflows.

The second safety feature I added was a solenoid in the incoming water tube. A solenoid for those that don't know is just a magnetically controlled valve that opens and closes depending on whether electricity is flowing through it or not. My solenoid is designed so that it is usually closed when unpowered, when power is supplied to it, it opens and allows water to pass through. The reason this solenoid is necessary is because if the sump overfills for whatever reason (pump dies, sump pump float switch gets stuck and doesn't trigger the aquarium pump, etc...) then the solenoid should be triggered to shut incoming water into the fish tank, preventing the sump from overflowing. The way the solenoid pump knows how to do this is because there are two float switches (two for redundancy and more safety) placed at the top of the sump bucket. If either of these two float switches are triggered by rising water then they send a signal to a relay (an electronic device necessary for this kind of use) that cuts the power supplied to the solenoid, thereby closing it and stopping anymore water from flowing into the fish tank and consequently preventing anymore water from entering the overflow and sump.

Solenoid in fresh water tube:









Float switches in sump pump:









The power strip and relay that controls it.









If you look carefully in the above picture you will see that there are two power strips. One of the power strips (left most one) is wired into the relay. Basically the relay controls the power strip itself and the float switches in the sump bucket control the relay. So what ends up happening when water rises too high is the float switches are triggered, they send a message to the relay box which cuts the power leading to the power strip and since the solenoid is plugged into the power strip, the solenoid loses power too and closes. I chose to wire a power strip to the relay because I will be adding more tanks to my water change system and therefore I need more solenoids to individually control the incoming fresh water to each tank. The beauty of this arrangement is that if the float switch is triggered in the sump the relay shuts off power to all solenoids and all incoming freshwater to all tanks is shut off. This way no tank will be able to add more water to the sump. In addition, each tank functions individually from the other due to the float valves mounted on each tank. If one tank's overflow gets clogged then only that tank will shut off the incoming freshwater. Each tank functions separately, but is united.

Relay assembly instructions (this is how I wired my relay and power socket) http://www.aquahub.com/store/media/TopitOffKitPremiumInstruxCompDec07.pdf

This is essentially how I have my relay, power strip and float switches set up, just instead of inside a tank it is all inside my sump:

Relay setup:









*Approximate Costs for adding 1 tank to a water change system*
Overflow system
10 feet of PVC tubing at 1.5" diameter for overflow and tank mount - $3 -- from home depot
3 U bend PVC joiners - $8 -- from home depot 
PVC cement - $3 -- from home depot
1 90 degree PVC bend - $0.70 -- from home depot
1 PVC 1.5" joiner with female screw (used for attaching a bard for the waste water pipe) $1.50
1 black corrugated 20 foot waste water drain pipe - $9 -- from home depot
1 pack of 12 zipties for securing waste pipe - $1.50 -- from home depot
1 garden 60 gallon sump bucket - $39 -- from home depot
1 aquarium pump - $30 -- from ebay
1 sump float switch - ??? -- from ebay
1 basement hole in the wall - $42 -- rented drill from home depot

Total: $137.70 + ??? (sump float switch) (includes tax and shipping)

Fresh water
20 feet of polyethyline tubing (1/4") -- $3 from home depot
2 saddle valves - $14 -- from home depot
1 three way quick connect tube joiner - $3 -- from home depot
1 valve for hot water - $7 -- from home depot

Total: $27 (includes tax)

Safety features
1 Relay kit with float switches - $46 -- from aquahub.com http://www.aquahub.com/store/product26.html
1 float valve for in tank - $14 -- from ebay
1 reel of electrical wire (for solenoid) for 90 feet - $8 -- from radioshack 
1 power strip - $8 -- from home depot
1 solenoid valve - $21 -- from ebay
2 plastic fittings for the solenoid valve - $3 -- from home depot
Total: $ 100 (includes tax)

*Grand total*: $264.70

Not a bad price in my opinion for never having to do another water change ever considering lights can cost about this much for larger tanks, and CO2 systems come close.

I have plans of adding flood detectors that sound an alarm so I know if a tank is overflowing, but I'll leave that for a later post.


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## LuisVillalobos

Wow that looks amazing!
ahah
kinda complicated but it would be really usefull!


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## niko

Zapins,

I'm blown away. 

I'm considering experimenting with a 180 gal. tank and constant drip system. The tank is full of BBA and I know it's because of organics. Conventional water changes every few days don't do anything.

I also saw a local monster fish keeper guy that has many huge fish in a 180 gal. tank. Looked totally crowded. Tank looked artifically clean. Like he bought the tank today and just filled it up with water 1 hour ago. But it's been running for 3 years and the silicone looks brand new on the inside. The huge fish are unbelievably healthy. Not a single small piece of anybody's fin was even split! We eat fish smaller than the monsters he had! They also eat 2-3 lbs of food a day! Continuous injection of Prime in the incoming water.

So! Have you seen any considerable benefits from the continuous water change compared to the old bucket & hose grampa approach?

--Nikolay


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## Zapins

Thanks for the kind words.

Niko - I have seen some pretty huge benefits in my 55g tank so far. The first is that the water is very clear, as if I had been running a diatom filter or two or three constantly. The fish seem more lively since the incoming water has a lot more dissolved O2 in it. Circulation seems to have improved quite a lot since the incoming water moves water away from a stagnant corner and the plants have been growing wonderfully. I've got some rotala rotundifolia that has turned pink nearly all the way to the bottom - its never done that before for me and I'm only using 2x55w of PC light on the tank!

I am very happy with the WC system so far. It has only been running for about a week now and already the results are clear. Its true what they say - the more WC you do the better the tank!

I think this system is highly modifiable. It would be easy to set up an automatic dosing system with this kind of system or add a dechlorinating device to one of the tubes, or heck even add another sump and a few timers and get the tank to drain first and then fill up in one go (not constant water flow). A reverse osmosis machine could be added to one of the fresh water tubes and mixed with incoming water, all that is needed is just a couple of 3 way junctions and a few inline valves which are cheap as dirt. 

I have been thinking about a cheap method for fertilizing a constant auto WC tank setup like I have. All that is needed would be another solenoid valve connected to a digital timer and a large container with fertilizers in it that is placed above the tank. The solenoid would allow fertilizers from the container to gravity feed down into the tank at regular intervals throughout the day and night to ensure very, very stable and consistent dosing (since the constant water changes would be removing excess). I think such an auto-fertilizing system wouldn't cost more then about 25-30 dollars total, since the timers are about 5$ and the solenoids are roughly 21$, tubing and a small valve are cheap/negligable. I'm going to give it a try and I'll post the results in another DIY thread. I've already got 2 solenoids coming in the mail. A peristaltic pump wouldn't be necessary at all for this, which lowers price considerably.

I plan to connect a 180g tank (with discus) to the auto WC system in addition to the 90g and 55g currently running on it. Once the auto water change system is complete adding additional tanks is EXTREMELY cheap. Basically the only things needed are another overflow - which is mainly made from cheap PVC pipe ($10 max), a length of corrugated drainage tube which is also cheap (20 feet for 9 bucks), and a 14$ float valve off ebay.


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## zap's Mom

Great job zapins, and you didn't even flood the house! :clap2:

Seriously, apart from my fears of the worst happening, I am relieved, and kinda proud to see how you did such a great job.

Also, I am happy that neither you (nor I) will have to do another water change! 

Now, about those other DIY jobs I have in mind for you....


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## zap's Mom

Hey! It's weird that you are senior here, and I am junior! 

But don't forget who's boss, lol.... despite what your dad says, it's ME


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## armedbiggiet

wow, this one actually make sense. I lik ethe second one alot, What you did it is the same idea for toilet!! but I can not figure out how the water going to flow with the air inside. I know the second part of the curve you got a hole for it but how about the first one that is part inside of the tank?


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## armedbiggiet

does the first run the water run by itself of you have to fill the first pipe with water?


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## Zapins

Initially the overflow needs to be filled with water. See the 1st diagram for an idea. I just stick a plastic tube in the overflow and suck out the air with an aqualifter pump. Once it is set, it doesn't need to be tinkered with again unless the overflow dries out or bubbles build up in it and break the continuous water section. It is totally self functioning after initial set up.


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## TAB

I hate to sound like a A hole, but that system is a flood waiting to happen.

saddle valves and plastic lines ( more so when near heat ) are also floods waiting to happen.


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## Zapins

Just a quick update on the system (over a year later). There have been no leaks from the saddle valves or plastic lines. Though if you make this system you definitely need to keep the tubes away from anything that is too hot to touch, especially furnace exhaust vents (hot water pipes seem ok for the most part as long as you can touch them with your hand). I had a small leak from one solenoid that seems to have been defective though which didn't cause much damage since it was only a few drops. 

The main problem I've had with the system is that it flushes nutrients out of the tank very quickly. I also found that if you run the water too much (constantly 24/7) fish develop pop-eye from gasses dissolved in the water (similar to the bends divers get).

I had to dial back the time that I allowed the system to run each day. I now run the water change system for 15 minutes a day which is the lowest increment on my timer. I think running it even less then this or 2-3 times a week for a short time would be even better. 

Since I posted this I added an RO unit and water storage tank to the existing system for my discus 180g tank. I suppose with a few plastic fittings I could mix RO water in with the other tanks I have if I wanted. I might post pictures of the RO system.

When I find time I'll wire up some peristaltic dosing pumps to the tanks to automatically take care of the fertilizers.


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## Zabman14u

i have been running a very similar setup to yours in my tank. i made my drain out of 1/2" pvc however as to keep it small and ran 1/4" line to the tank to drip in. i figured the 1/2" will flow 4x as much water as the 1/4" can supply. my pickup for the drain though, i ran straight down towards the bottom of the tank which i may change to your up pipe design. the waste water is awesome for watering flowers and gardens. 

a word of caution however, once you get enough air in the top of the drain loop that it shuts off the continuous flow to your vented side of the drain and then instead of the drain being the limiting factor of how high your water level is in your tank, the glass height takes over. but dont worry the water level will not go higher than the top of the glass, it just kinda trickles down the side of the tank then. if you have enough dissolved O2 or CO2 in your water to collect inside the drain it could do that. i had my setup for little over a year too and it finally did just that a few days ago. idk if having the pickup pointed up will help prevent that problem or not.


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## Zapins

Zab - I'd love to see some pictures of your setup if you have them. 

Also, as for the air bubble problem in the drainage loop, I solved this by drilling a small hole at the top of the drainage loop where the gas gets trapped and running a 1/4" tube to an aquilifter pump. The pump sucks out the air and keeps water in the top of the loop. It works very well. I'll see if I can take a picture of it soon.


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## killacross

i plan to do something similar when I get a home (not an apt)

i think it would be much simpler and safer to eliminate the float switches, relays, pumps etc. and...

1. drill an small overflow on the back (no worries about breaking siphon)
2. use a solenoid on the water inputs w/ a timer (like 2-3mins daily) slowly adjusted until its right
3. have water outflow just lead to a drain or flower bed etc
4. have automated fert system


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## Zapins

True, true, but my tanks are in the basement and there are no drains that the water can flow down to, it must be pumped up and out of the house. If my tanks were on a top floor I would eliminate the collection bucket and a lot of the other stuff I have. Also drilling tanks is somewhat risky and somewhat limits their aquascapableness (tongue twister!).

Its funny you should mention the fert system, whenever I muster up the effort I'll get around to hooking up the peristaltic pumps and digital second timers I bought to the system. I'll post pics of that too when I finish it. 

Please post pics of your system whenever you finish it!


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## killacross

the simplest fert system i have seen is a friend uses a horizontal autofeeder

he modified it slightly so that each compartment has a small hinged false bottom...and its a smaller tank (like 30 gals I think) 

as it rotates, the bottom falls out and drops macros and trace daily...surprisingly, he doesnt have problems with humidity


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## Zapins

That sounds interesting! I was thinking of something like that as well a few months ago but using one of those electric salt grinders. I figured that humidity would cause the dry ferts to clump and they would need grinding to be dosed correctly. I bought one for 7 bucks off ebay but I never got around to wiring it up. But if humidity isn't a problem then autofeeders would be a great choice. I've got some lying around as well, I might put them to the test.

I think dosing dry ferts is the best idea for fertilizer dosing since liquid dosing allows the chemicals to spoil with whatever bacteria or fungus happens to like to eat them.

Do you think you could get some pics of the modifications he made to the feeder?


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## Jim Miller

What happens when a bit of plant or a snail gets in the overflow?

Jim


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## TAB

flood.

Thats why I've never liked the fill to have it overflow water change systems.

a much better option is have a stand pipe of a valve in your plumbing so the water will drain down to that point. then you refill. Its what I run on my discus tank. I have a stand pipe that is 12" below the water line on a valve. I just turn the valve, out goes the water.


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## Zapins

No. Perhaps you should look back at the flood protection I added TAB.

If the overflow gets clogged then each tank has a float valve that is set to stop incoming water before it reaches the rim of the tank preventing a tank overflow.

Float valve on each tank:


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## TAB

Floats can and do fail.

Murphy is a SOB.


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## Zapins

Yep, but then again everything fails. You might worry about the tank seams bursting and flooding the entire tank on the floor. Adding floats makes the system that much more safe in an imperfect world. Better then no floats. 

Toilets use floats, and everyone has one or more in their house. Sure they rarely fail (on the order of once in a dozen years if not less due to the float valve) but they are fail safe enough to be common and not cause people massive flood damage.

If its good enough for the loo its good enough for the tanks I think


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## TAB

actually floats in toilets come out of adjustment/fail all the time. that and the flapper valve are the 2 biggest service calls I get for toilet repairs.

All I'm saying is if you can remove something mechanical, you are better off. Look at places like reef central for float swtich/valve failures. you will see dozens.


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## RSidetrack

Well this is my first post on this forum but I have taken great interest in this setup and what you are doing with it.

My current automatic water changing system works, but unfortunately it is risky. Currently I actually have two electrodes that go into different positions on the tank, one at the top for filling, one part way down for draining. I have a power head that pumps water out to drain the tank and a dishwasher water valve that lets water in.

The system works by having a small amount of electricity to complete the circuit - way to low to hurt any fish, even in a full saltwater tank (mine is freshwater tho). So at a certain time each day the controller for draining the tank turns on and water is drained out until the circuit is broken (water goes lower than electrode). The timer turns off after a certain time which stops the draining (if it doesn't turn off though the water can only go as low as the power head, most I risk is burning up the power head).

A second timer turns on which opens the dishwasher valve and lets water in until it hits the top electrode and completes the circuit which cuts power to the dishwasher valve.

The problem with my setup of course is while the draining has a couple fail safes (electrodes, timer, and bottom of power head); my filling part of the cycle is only timer based and electrode. As I discovered the other day of course, the electrodes get covered with standard aquarium "grime" and, well, the circuit doesn't get completed. I ended up with maybe a quarter gallon on the floor before the timer kicked off.

Anyway - whole point of this post is I have been trying to implement the drain system as a backup in case my electrodes get covered again. I tried basing my first design exactly off the way you set yours up - though I am trying to keep it small so I have 3/4" pipe rather than 1.5" and they didn't have "u" connectors like they do in the bigger sizes so I had to make my own with elbows.

Anyway, I filled it up, and well, it didn't work. If I tilted it slightly to towards the drain side [part that would go out of the house] (this brought the "drain" out of the water) it would start draining. If I put a direct water source to it it would work fine. So I trimmed down my pipe that is on the inside of the U with the air release (anti-siphon) in case I had it too high. Now it doesn't work no matter what I do. I guess my question is, how close do you have to be on the height for the drain and the 3rd U?


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## RSidetrack

Oh and another thing for you guys with Chlorine and Chloramine - I built my own filter to get rid of the chemicals for my incoming water source. I have Chloramine in my house - so it makes it that much more difficult.

If you want to build your own filter, here is what I did.
Materials:
4" diameter x 3' long piece of PVC
Connectors for water input and output
Drain cleanouts for both sides
Pink (heavy duty) teflon
Womens Nylons
Big box of Carbon (forget amount needed)
Big box of Ammo Chips (forget amount needed)

Fill the 1 nylon with carbon and put in pipe, try to get half the pipe filled with the carbon. (input side)
Fill the other nylon with the ammo chips and try to fill the rest of the pipe (output side)

Put a polishing filter on the output side of the pipe so it fits the entire connection (this way any excess particles that do make it won't clog anything, and cleaner water getting in)

Hook up and run .

The carbon removes the chlorine from the water and the ammo chips absorb the ammonia (left behind from Chloramine). Test the water as it comes out, make sure there is no Chlorine or Ammonia (for chloramine water).

My setup has lasted over a year, still no chlorine or ammonia. I even fill up milk jugs with the water cause it tastes pretty good compared to straight from the tap.


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## Jim Miller

I can appreciate the desire for automation, while setting up my 90g I had the hose extending from the small bath shower head on the first floor to the tank continuously. Unsightly and a stumble hazard as well. I've since purchased a small hosereel from the HW store to tidy it up and make it easy to stow after use. SWMBO was complaining about the hosereel in the showerstall just before she left this morning. I'm going to add a quick disconnect fitting to make it easier to move to the basement.

I think a 50% standpipe drain would be pretty easy to hide in the tank and would eliminate the need for drain timers. Just a valve to open when needed. It will stop when the top of the pipe is reached. I'd still opt for a manual fill afterwards however via a dedicated 1/4" line. Stuff happens...

I'll do that in my next house for sure. Won't be automated but it would be much more convenient.

Jim


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## Zapins

RSidetrack your system sounds interesting! I was initially considering using electricity in the same way you are but I never got around to figuring out the voltages etc... I would love to hear what types of electrical systems you are using (voltages/power supplies/what your electrode is made of/etc..) if you have the time pictures would be great too!

A side thought on your system vs mine is that your system is more efficient with water. A pump removes water in your tank then new water fills the tank back up. In this way you discard only dirty water and replace it with fresh. My system dilutes the dirty tank water by adding fresh water into it. It is less efficient but also slightly more safe for the plants in the tank since there is no risk of the tank draining to 50% and then something going wrong and the fresh water does not refill the tank again. If you have a wood scape with anubias plants and whatnot growing up near the surface on the wood a 50% full tank can leave the plants out in the air where they can dry up and die. I suppose its all down to preference and your water situation. I am lucky to have well water since it costs us nothing except the electricity to pump it out of the ground, but in a city it might make more sense to drain then refill especially if you have a lot of tanks on the auto system.

I am lucky that my house uses well water, so we have no chlorine or chloramine. I am surprised to hear that carbon removed chloramine though I didn't know that. Does carbon remove chlorine too? How long does a bag of carbon like that last? Fascinating idea though, I had convoluted plans for peristaltic pumps and dechlorinator liquid in mind before I realized our house doesn't have chlorine/chloramine .

I updated my overflow diagram. I think this one is much more clear. Basically the important thing to make sure of is that the top of pipe number 3 is below the U joint between 1 and 2 but at the same time the top of pipe number 3 must be above the bottom of pipe 1 (see dotted line in diagram). This ensures that the siphon tube never runs dry (solid blue tube).

When the overflow is set up in this fashion you will drain the tank water down to the point indicated (see before and after diagrams). Any water added to the tank after the initial setup will flow through the overflow pipe.

Also, since I made this design I had to drill a small hole in the overflow on the top of the U joint between pipes 1 and 2. I ran a small 1/8" tube into the hole and sealed it. The tube runs into an aqualifter pump which sucks water and air out of the U joint ensuring that gas bubbles do not build up there and break the seal. This system has worked well.


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## RSidetrack

Zapins said:


> RSidetrack your system sounds interesting! I was initially considering using electricity in the same way you are but I never got around to figuring out the voltages etc... I would love to hear what types of electrical systems you are using (voltages/power supplies/what your electrode is made of/etc..) if you have the time pictures would be great too!


I am actually in the process of redesigning the system and getting the units in safe boxes - once done I will get photos. Right now they are exposed circuits which of course are unsafe if hit with water. As for electrical systems I am using phone charge power supplies that are run through resistors to put out very very low current. Right now (another change) my electrodes are just wires, held in a small piece of air hose that are split at the ends so the prongs point out each side. When the circuit is complete (water covering electrodes) it flips a relay, which either turns on or off the pump or dishwasher valve (you can get these very cheap on ebay). I will get more detailed specs of the system once it is done.



Zapins said:


> A side thought on your system vs mine is that your system is more efficient with water. A pump removes water in your tank then new water fills the tank back up. In this way you discard only dirty water and replace it with fresh. My system dilutes the dirty tank water by adding fresh water into it. It is less efficient but also slightly more safe for the plants in the tank since there is no risk of the tank draining to 50% and then something going wrong and the fresh water does not refill the tank again. If you have a wood scape with anubias plants and whatnot growing up near the surface on the wood a 50% full tank can leave the plants out in the air where they can dry up and die. I suppose its all down to preference and your water situation. I am lucky to have well water since it costs us nothing except the electricity to pump it out of the ground, but in a city it might make more sense to drain then refill especially if you have a lot of tanks on the auto system.


Fortunately I don't have a large amount of plants in my tank quite yet. I am working on fail safes within my drain and fill design, basically redundant backups - two sets of electrodes per unit. Still possible to have both fail unfortunately - this is why I really want to get the drain pipe set up.



Zapins said:


> I am lucky that my house uses well water, so we have no chlorine or chloramine. I am surprised to hear that carbon removed chloramine though I didn't know that. Does carbon remove chlorine too? How long does a bag of carbon like that last? Fascinating idea though, I had convoluted plans for peristaltic pumps and dechlorinator liquid in mind before I realized our house doesn't have chlorine/chloramine .


Actually activated carbon only removes Chlorine. When it hits Chloramine it breaks it down into two parts - chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine is removed by the activated carbon, leaving only Ammonia. As a result, I use Ammo Chips to get rid of the Ammonia. I just had to replace the ammo chips in my system for the first time in a year - it was letting .25ppm of ammonia through - once the ammo chips were replaced it lets none through. I do checks every month to make sure no Chlorine, Chloramine or Ammonia are making it through the system. After all, why drain dirty water to add in dirty water .



Zapins said:


> I updated my overflow diagram. I think this one is much more clear. Basically the important thing to make sure of is that the top of pipe number 3 is below the U joint between 1 and 2 but at the same time the top of pipe number 3 must be above the bottom of pipe 1 (see dotted line in diagram). This ensures that the siphon tube never runs dry (solid blue tube).
> 
> When the overflow is set up in this fashion you will drain the tank water down to the point indicated (see before and after diagrams). Any water added to the tank after the initial setup will flow through the overflow pipe.
> 
> Also, since I made this design I had to drill a small hole in the overflow on the top of the U joint between pipes 1 and 2. I ran a small 1/8" tube into the hole and sealed it. The tube runs into an aqualifter pump which sucks water and air out of the U joint ensuring that gas bubbles do not build up there and break the seal. This system has worked well.


Okay - that may be part of my problem. I redesigned mine so the #3 pipe was actually lower than everything else - including the intake. I will have to redesign to see if I can get it to function better.

How do you prime the tube? You may not have to now that you have it hooked into a pump, but before that how did you prime it? I think priming may be part of my problem too. I was able to get my set up to work to the point where overflow water would trickle out, but not fast enough to counter a filling. I am going to put one together that resembles your new diagram and see what happens. I will just hold off on the glue for now (just have to hope it is air tight )

What kind of pump are you using to remove the air and keep the flow up? Would it be possible for me to run a line into my Rena filter intake and have it do the same thing or would I have to splice into the system? In which case I would probably want to use a power head of some sort as I really don't want to mess up my Rena filter


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## RSidetrack

While I have the stuff in front of me, for the water emptying circuit:

You will need:
A/C Power Cord
5.7v 800mA power supply (or close to it)
Outlet of some sort (to plug in emptying pump, you may hardwire if you wish, I just wanted easy removal)
OEG OJ-SS-109TM Relay
A diode (unfortunately numbers are worn off mine :-/)
Resistor (Mine is Gold, Orange, Black Brown)

I was trying to type out how to build, but too complicated. Will have to get a picture when done. If you are good with electronics you might be able to make what I provided work.

My brother is the electronic genius that came up with this system, I am just a computer nerd . I am not good with electronic lingo, etc, or how stuff actually works


----------



## Zapins

RSidetrack said:


> I am actually in the process of redesigning the system and getting the units in safe boxes - once done I will get photos. Right now they are exposed circuits which of course are unsafe if hit with water. As for electrical systems I am using phone charge power supplies that are run through resistors to put out very very low current. Right now (another change) my electrodes are just wires, held in a small piece of air hose that are split at the ends so the prongs point out each side. When the circuit is complete (water covering electrodes) it flips a relay, which either turns on or off the pump or dishwasher valve (you can get these very cheap on ebay). I will get more detailed specs of the system once it is done.


What causes your electrodes to malfunction exactly? Is it corrosion or sludge/algae build up? It might be worth it to have a look at some of the other metals out there. I have heard that some are ani-microbial and do not tarnish.



RSidetrack said:


> Fortunately I don't have a large amount of plants in my tank quite yet. I am working on fail safes within my drain and fill design, basically redundant backups - two sets of electrodes per unit. Still possible to have both fail unfortunately - this is why I really want to get the drain pipe set up.


You might also want to add small plastic float valves (from ebay) to your design. They will prevent incoming water into the tank if the overflow and the electronics fail. They will be a third safeguard. I think I might add your electronic safety system to mine for a third fail safe .

As a side note there are actually water sensors / water alarms that are available on ebay for about 7 bucks each. They could be useful as a fourth safety feature or an alert system. They could probably be wired into your preexisting electronic system or my solenoid/drainage system.



RSidetrack said:


> Okay - that may be part of my problem. I redesigned mine so the #3 pipe was actually lower than everything else - including the intake. I will have to redesign to see if I can get it to function better.


Just make sure that 3 isn't too close to the bottom of 1 since the water level in the tank drains down to the level of 3. So if 1 is a very long pipe that sits near the bottom of your tank and you put 3 just above the bottom of 1 then your whole tank remains unfilled.



RSidetrack said:


> How do you prime the tube? You may not have to now that you have it hooked into a pump, but before that how did you prime it? I think priming may be part of my problem too. I was able to get my set up to work to the point where overflow water would trickle out, but not fast enough to counter a filling. I am going to put one together that resembles your new diagram and see what happens. I will just hold off on the glue for now (just have to hope it is air tight )


What I did before I had the aqualifter is I snaked an air bubbler tube into 1 and made sure the tube reached the U joint between 1 and 2 while the overflow sat in the tank. Then I sucked out the air by mouth until I saw water in the tube. Then I removed the tube. If you install an aqualifter there you don't have to suck out the air by mouth, you can just run the pump and it removes the air for you.



RSidetrack said:


> What kind of pump are you using to remove the air and keep the flow up? Would it be possible for me to run a line into my Rena filter intake and have it do the same thing or would I have to splice into the system? In which case I would probably want to use a power head of some sort as I really don't want to mess up my Rena filter


Yeah I agree, I think it would be safer to buy a separate pump for the job rather then using your canister filter. Getting airtube line connected securely to 1/2" filter line is difficult since the fittings are impossible to find at local hardware stores. Also, there might be unforeseen consequences to having multiple intakes into the filter.

The one I am using is Aqua Lifter, Aqualifter Pump by Tom AW-20 Drip/Dose. They are about $14.


----------



## Zapins

RSidetrack said:


> While I have the stuff in front of me, for the water emptying circuit:
> 
> You will need:
> A/C Power Cord
> 5.7v 800mA power supply (or close to it)
> Outlet of some sort (to plug in emptying pump, you may hardwire if you wish, I just wanted easy removal)
> OEG OJ-SS-109TM Relay
> A diode (unfortunately numbers are worn off mine :-/)
> Resistor (Mine is Gold, Orange, Black Brown)
> 
> I was trying to type out how to build, but too complicated. Will have to get a picture when done. If you are good with electronics you might be able to make what I provided work.
> 
> My brother is the electronic genius that came up with this system, I am just a computer nerd . I am not good with electronic lingo, etc, or how stuff actually works


Thanks! I think I can get one working. Come to think of it, this is basically the exact same thing as a water sensor that you would buy off ebay. It might even be cheaper to make these and wire them all into the same relay. That way if one water sensor triggers on any of the tanks then it shuts off all incoming water to all the tanks, until the problem is fixed. Wire in a little light bulb or buzzer to the relay as well and you can be alerted to the problem as well.


----------



## RSidetrack

Zapins said:


> What causes your electrodes to malfunction exactly? Is it corrosion or sludge/algae build up? It might be worth it to have a look at some of the other metals out there. I have heard that some are ani-microbial and do not tarnish.


The electrodes corrode - but it is just copper wire so it isn't a surprise. I have been considering looking at other metals. Aluminum may be a good choice as well, but it could get the build up. I will have to look for the anti-microbial stuff.



Zapins said:


> You might also want to add small plastic float valves (from ebay) to your design. They will prevent incoming water into the tank if the overflow and the electronics fail. They will be a third safeguard. I think I might add your electronic safety system to mine for a third fail safe .


Not a bad idea - I am trying to not have too much clutter, but better than having gallons on the floor 



Zapins said:


> As a side note there are actually water sensors / water alarms that are available on ebay for about 7 bucks each. They could be useful as a fourth safety feature or an alert system. They could probably be wired into your preexisting electronic system or my solenoid/drainage system.


My problem is when I am not home a sensor isn't the best thing to alert me. I think just having a bunch of safe guards and monitoring and testing them monthly is the best way to avoid catastrophe.



Zapins said:


> Just make sure that 3 isn't too close to the bottom of 1 since the water level in the tank drains down to the level of 3. So if 1 is a very long pipe that sits near the bottom of your tank and you put 3 just above the bottom of 1 then your whole tank remains unfilled.


I got one working nicely now . Thanks for all your help on this.



Zapins said:


> What I did before I had the aqualifter is I snaked an air bubbler tube into 1 and made sure the tube reached the U joint between 1 and 2 while the overflow sat in the tank. Then I sucked out the air by mouth until I saw water in the tube. Then I removed the tube. If you install an aqualifter there you don't have to suck out the air by mouth, you can just run the pump and it removes the air for you.


Okay - I will do this for now until I get the pump you suggested below



Zapins said:


> Yeah I agree, I think it would be safer to buy a separate pump for the job rather then using your canister filter. Getting airtube line connected securely to 1/2" filter line is difficult since the fittings are impossible to find at local hardware stores. Also, there might be unforeseen consequences to having multiple intakes into the filter.
> 
> The one I am using is Aqua Lifter, Aqualifter Pump by Tom AW-20 Drip/Dose. They are about $14.


Thanks!


----------



## RSidetrack

Zapins said:


> Thanks! I think I can get one working. Come to think of it, this is basically the exact same thing as a water sensor that you would buy off ebay. It might even be cheaper to make these and wire them all into the same relay. That way if one water sensor triggers on any of the tanks then it shuts off all incoming water to all the tanks, until the problem is fixed. Wire in a little light bulb or buzzer to the relay as well and you can be alerted to the problem as well.


Yea it isn't a complicated design. I do like it because water is replaced rather than diluted. I have mine set up to do a 10% change daily. It isn't bad, but I do have to keep dosing with salt as my sharks need a little bit.

As far as expense, very cheap, just a couple bucks for everything.


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## killacross

@Zapins

in theory...couldnt you just extend part 1 farther down into the tank? that way, the water level drains to the height of tube 3 but never risks the water level falling below the entrance to tube 1 and sucking any air

also...with the hole in tube 3...if the hole is open, you have an overflow that stays level with tube 3...with the hole plugged...you create an autosiphon that will drain your tank to the bottom of tube 1

controlling whether the hole in 3 is open or closed essentially is the difference between an overflow control and a water change mechanism no?


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## Zapins

Yep, you have the right idea killa. Tube 1 can be as long as you like really, but it can't be shorter then where the water line sits in tube 3.

If you closed tube 3 it wouldn't siphon because there is still an air pocket in the bend above tube 3. You'd have to use a tube and suck out the air pocket above tube 3 and between 1 and 2 for a siphon to work. But if you put a second aqualift pump above 3 to suck out the air then it would work as a water change mechanism very nicely. I actually never though of using it like this. 

You know this opens up the possibility of making a really simple water changer.

You'd need 2 aqualifters, the overflow pipes and a float valve. You could just put the aqualifter on 3 on a timer and have it suck out the air bubble whenever you want to drain the tank, then the float valve would fall and fill the tank up as its draining.

There seem to be so many variations on making an auto-water change system. I'm surprised more people don't have them.


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## killacross

i gotta try it to be certain...but i respectfully disagree good sir

if done correctly...there isnt an air pocket between 1 and 2 (really ever) which means you focus on the air pocket in tube 3....if the water is filled slowly...it will trickle over 3 and just drain slowly

however, if you fill it quickly...water will spill over 3 and create a siphon as it travels down

much like your toilet (most common autosiphon)...if you fill with water slowly (a broken float), it will never overflow as any excess water simply trickles over ...but if you dump water in quickly (empty the tank), it drains the entire bowl until it can suck air/break the siphon or runs out of water

the only difference here is that you cant [easily] "reprime" the overflow if you drain it to the bottom...the reason that you need the hole in tube 3 is to "break" the siphon as its easier to draw/compress air than it is to move water

i may look into this tho for an "easy" way to do EI dosing's 50% water changes on a larger tank (when I get one)

...gotta get a pen/paper to think this thru first tho

question...is the aqualifter a simple air pump? or can it pump water as well?

**EDIT**

nvm...its a nice little diaphragm pump...wish I saw this earlier (for a different project) but it could definitely work now with 1 aqualifter and 1 check valve


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## Zapins

Right, but the pocket between 1 and 2 doesn't stay there permanently. There are dissolved gasses in the water that accumulate between 1 and 2 over time, they eventually prevent water from flowing over from 1 to 2. That is why the aqualifter is necessary there. I initially had no aqualifter and the gas bubbles stopped the overflow from working after about a month, so I added the aqualifters and since then the system has worked without a problem for over a year.

If 3 didn't have a hole in it then you are right, you would get a siphon effect if you removed the air pocket above 3 (either by filling it quickly as you say or by adding an aqualifter to remove the air bubble like I suggested).

If you have 2 aqualifters you can re-prime the overflow since the aqualifters suck air and water up and out of the joints between 1 and 2 and above 3 (the only places where gas accumulates and breaks the overflow). That is the beauty of adding them to the system.

After you mentioned closing the hole at 3 for the siphon effect I thought it was a good idea, because what would happen is the tank would drain down to the bottom and air would be introduced into pipe 1. As the siphon clears all the water from the pipe, air would get sucked into all sections of the overflow. Then after your tank fills with water again (and is prevented from overflowing by float valves that cut off incoming water when the tank is full) your first aqualifter pump is set on a timer to suck the air out of the joint between 1 and 2 (restoring the overflow but not the siphon - because air is still trapped above 3 at this point). When you want the siphon effect to drain the tank again for your next water change you just have the second aqualifter (above 3) on a timer. When the aqualifter removes the air above 3 the siphon is able to drain the tank all the way to the bottom of pipe 1. Thus resetting the whole thing. 

The length of tube 1 would simply determine how much water is drained out of the fish tank. If tube 1 is 25% the depth of your tank, then each water change would do a 25% water change on the tank. If the tube is 50% the length of your tank then each cycle would change 50% of the tank water etc...

Of course this whole system relies on you having a good auto-shut off contraption on incoming water. If the float valve, electric switch, etc... malfunctions then you would get water overflowing the tank until the aqualifter timer triggers and restores the overflow. I suppose if you had several redundant methods of stopping incoming water if the overflow isn't working then this kind of system would be dependable.

The aqualifter is able to pump air and water. Its not particularly powerful, but it gets the job done


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## gpodio

Thought I'd chime in seeing I had similar issues with my original water change setup where the overflow would occasionally loose it's prime...

I ended up using a pump to pull water out of the tank and a traditional ATO to fill it back up. Been rock solid for over a year now, very happy with this solution.

Details here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...3051-low-light-high-tech-automated-180-a.html

Regards,
Giancarlo


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## heartnet

Here are my proposed modifications to the system:

1. Non-continuous 
Instead of making it a continuous WC system, I opted for a water storage tank where the water could be aged and heated prior to filling the tank. This is a discus tank, so I want to maintain consistent water parameters.

2. Overflows
Instead of making a PVC outflow, I'm going to plumb an emergency overflow directly in the back of the tank. The reason why I labeled it as an "emergency" overflow is because it won't be used very often and it is plumbed directly to a drain.

Water will instead be drained via a pump on a timer directly into the same drain. (Step 1) As a result, the only purpose the overflow serves is to prevent a flood in the event of a failure in the filling system. (Step 2)

3. ATO relays
Instead of one ATO relay, I will have two ATO relays: one in the tank and one in the water storage tank. The ATO relay sensors in the tank will be hooked up to a timer, which will only turn on after the tank has been drained, and only until it fills the tank back up

The ATO system in the water storage tank will also be timed to refill it only after the tank has been refilled. So when the ATO turns on, it will activate the relay switch for the solenoid to open allowing filtered water to refill the water storage tank back to normal levels. The water storage tank, itself, will also have an emergency overflow connected directly to a drain.

With these modifications, the whole automated system works like a cascading chain of events that has to be precisely timed to change out a set amount of water, instead of continuously changing it. As far as I can see, I don't see a chance of flooding with the emergency overflows. I'm hoping maybe you might be able to spot any flaws or places I overlooked that can be improved, assuming everything is setup and fitted properly.

I also wanted to know where did you get the solenoid used in your system and would it be able to handle the pressure from the cold waterline?


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## Zapins

Hello heartnet,

I'm glad my thread was helpful to you. I do have some suggestions and considerations for you about your plans. Also, even though the thread hasn't been active in a while I would still get the update if you had posted there since I am subscribed to it. I think you should copy and paste your message to me into the thread I made since it could help someone else in the future. I will copy and paste my reply there as well after yours goes up.

As for your designs. They seem pretty good however you will want to add a float valve in the tank on the tube that fills up the tank with fresh water. This will prevent a siphon from forming if the storage bin is higher than the tank level. Also if for some reason the float switch on the relay fails (and they do) the pump will keep filling the tank up. You do have an overflow which should be able to drain the tank and prevent flooding if everything goes right, but occasionally those can get clogged or blocked by plants/fish etc... Adding a float valve on the fresh water inlet ensures that if the water ever gets too high it will automatically turn itself off without relying on other devices to prevent flooding.

The same logic applies to the reverse osmosis filter in your diagram. You don't need a 2nd relay to prevent over filling of the storage bin. A simple float valve on the water is enough to prevent the RO system from over filling the storage bin. I also have a second auto water change system that uses RO in a setup very similar to your diagram which uses a float valve to stop the RO system. This will also save you money as relays and float switches are not cheap!

The solenoids I used came from ebay, I think I listed the details and price in the thread somewhere (first or 2nd page I think). They can withstand the pressure from the cold water line. I did have a problem with one of the valves after about 2 years. It seemed to jam in the closed position so the tank it fed was not getting filled. I'm not sure if this is a common problem or a one off with that particular solenoid. Make sure you buy the solenoids that are always in the "off/closed" position when unpowered.

Also, when I made my system I wondered what to do with the waste water. I thought it would be ok to pipe it into the drain, however, I called the building inspector at my local government hall and talked with them about it to be sure. Apparently it is against building codes (illegal) to pipe your waste water into the septic system of your house if your leaching field was not designed to handle the water. The same for draining it into a sewer drain (if I remember correctly). The inspector told me it was legal to drain it outside onto the bare ground or under bushes if they were at least 15 feet from the house so that is what I ended up doing. You may want to check with your local inspector so you don't get cited when they do the 10 year house inspections for tax purposes.

Looking at the picture I almost wonder if you should have a relay & float switches at all in the tank. If you connected a thinner tube to the pump in the water storage bin than the tube that sits in your tank connected to the draining pump #1 (in the picture) your tank would drain faster (1-2 minutes) down to the level of the #1 pump. The storage bin pump (connected to the same timer as the #1 pump) would also be on at the same time, however, it would not take 1-2 minutes to fill the tank but much longer since the tube is much thinner. This setup removes the need for a relay at all in the entire system and uses only 1 timer which also removes one more step that could go wrong, resulting in a safer system that costs less. You would need to put the #1 pump at 50% of the tank's height so that it only drains 50% of the water (it would still be on for a few minutes longer spinning in the air while the 2nd pump in the storage bin fills the tank). This idea is technically a continuous flow system, but since the incoming water fills much slower than the draining water you will be quite efficient about it, not mixing very much new and old water.

In my systems, the only place I use a relay is for the waste water bin. I only use it there since I have all my tanks in the basement and I have to collect the waste water somewhere in order to pump it up and out of the basement to the garden. If your waste water is being taken care of you don't really need relays at all, though you can certainly use them if you really want to. Be sure to buy at least 2 float switches per relay though since if one float switch fails you definitely want a 2nd one there to switch off the relay.


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## heartnet

Now, you bring up a good point! I forgot about the height difference. Yes, the storage tank will be in fact higher than the display tank itself; however, they are on the same ground level - the storage bin will just be taller to accommodate space. The hose from the pump inside the tank will snake up and down along the barrel and along the floor and eventually up again into the display tank. Will all the high nooks and crannies still induce a siphon effect? Or it doesn't matter as long as one is higher than the other?

I chose to work with the relays because I don't really have a clear idea of how the float valve works. And yes I agree with you on the potential of clogging the overflow, but it's going to be an inch or two higher than the water line, so no water drains through unless it continues to flow past the float sensors. Are the float valves you speak of the same as in this kit? http://www.aquahub.com/store/product26.html

If I'm understanding you correctly, instead of relying on relays, the float valves can also electronically shut off the pump in the water storage bin.

So if I use a float valve to control the water levels in the storage tank, then I can forgo the relay all together? Would I still have to use a solenoid between the cold water and line and the RO filter?

As for the plumbing of the drains, there is an old unused bathroom with a shower drain not far from the tank and I'm simply going to have the drainage hoses for the overflows directly above those drains. Thus I am neither piping the waste water directly into my house's septic system or outside the house for that matter. It would be no different from someone taking a shower in there. 



> Looking at the picture I almost wonder if you should have a relay & float switches at all in the tank. If you connected a thinner tube to the pump in the water storage bin than the tube that sits in your tank connected to the draining pump #1 (in the picture) your tank would drain faster (1-2 minutes) down to the level of the #1 pump. The storage bin pump (connected to the same timer as the #1 pump) would also be on at the same time, however, it would not take 1-2 minutes to fill the tank but much longer since the tube is much thinner. This setup removes the need for a relay at all in the entire system and uses only 1 timer which also removes one more step that could go wrong, resulting in a safer system that costs less. You would need to put the #1 pump at 50% of the tank's height so that it only drains 50% of the water (it would still be on for a few minutes longer spinning in the air while the 2nd pump in the storage bin fills the tank). This idea is technically a continuous flow system, but since the incoming water fills much slower than the draining water you will be quite efficient about it, not mixing very much new and old water.


If I'm understanding your proposal here correctly, then instead of two timed events (one for draining and then one for filling), you're suggesting that both the draining pump and the filling pump be hooked up to a dual timer. The drain pump will drain the water quickly and the filling pump will fill more slower with the thinner tubing at the same time. How will the tank be refilled to normal levels if the drain pump also continues to run while its being filled? 

If I chose to keep the draining and refilling part separately timed, is there anyway of avoiding the use of relays? I want the system to do this: when the water level reaches X, something tells the pump to shutoff. Can float valves serve that purpose?

And I assume replacing the relays with the float valves will automatically keep the water levels in the storage tank constant while its filling the tank?

So float valves > relays?


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## Zapins

Not a problem, I love aquarium related discussions. There never seems to be enough on the forums for me!

As for the siphoning effect, yes it will definitely occur. If the tube is full of water from one end to the other at any point it will begin to siphon even if the difference is tiny. A float valve will stop additional water from entering a container when the water touches it, it is not electronic though, purely mechanical. A float valve works by having a floating hard plastic plastic balloon held underneath an opening where water comes out. Then when the water level in the container rises the balloon floats on top and eventually is pressed upwards sealing off the opening where new water comes in. They use them everywhere even in your toilet to prevent overflowing. They are quite reliable and very cheap. I bought mine off ebay for about 10-15$ shipped. I'll post a picture at the end of the thread so you can see what they look like.

The kit you linked does not have float valves in it. There are only float switches (sensors) included in there.

The float valves should be connected to the RO part of the system and to the tank where fresh water enters. The float valves will automatically prevent water from flowing through when the level reaches the valve itself. You don't need to electronically control any solenoids or pumps with relays.



> How will the tank be refilled to normal levels if the drain pump also continues to run while its being filled?


Haha, you are quite right! Two timers are needed. I'll chalk it up to replying when its past my bed time 

Still though be aware that if the incoming water timer/pump does not turn on you'll have a half filled tank where the discus have 50% of the water they did before until you notice it. If the drain pump timer breaks you'll have no water changes at all because the float valve and the relay (if you are going to use it) will both prevent the pump in the storage bin from turning on. But you will think the water change system is working properly. The tank will just top itself up as evaporation brings the level of the water down past the valve/sensors.

If you used float valves I don't see the need for relays at all, perhaps only for redundancy to have another layer of protection in the filling the aquarium part. The RO relay and solenoid is unnecessary.

The only reason I have solenoids at all in my system is because I tapped the house water supply. There is no way for me to control when the fresh water goes on an off with a timer without adding solenoids. Your system on the other hand stores water in a bin where you have a pump that can be electronically controlled without solenoids. This gives you more options.

I drew a picture of what I'm thinking.










As soon as timer 1 goes off, pump 1 drains the tank to 50%. This causes float valve 1 to open making it possible for new water to enter the tank when pump 2 triggers.

Timer 2 triggers pump 2. Since float valve 1 is now in the open position fresh water can enter the tank until the water level in the tank causes float 1 to seal itself, preventing new water from entering the tank.

While pump 2 is active the water line in the storage bin is going down, which causes float valve 2 to open, allowing the RO unit to refill the storage bin. When the storage bin is full float valve 2 will prevent any more RO water from filling the storage bin.










This is one of the float valves I use. The black plastic hinge in the middle is where water enters the tank if the balloon on the left is not being pushed up by the water level.


----------



## heartnet

I actually opened up my toilet chamber to see how the ball valve worked. hahaha.  It's quite ingenious really; I thought the float, itself, might have been too weak to hold back the water, but you're right! It's surprisingly reliable. 

Looking at your diagram, I, too, don't see the need to purchase a single relay or solenoid now. Less equipment and less cost with the same functionality as an end result is a win-win in my book. 

I will also be using a saddle valve to tap into the water line; would the float valve be enough to stop the constant flow of water from the RO unit? I'm assuming the pressure from the water after the saddle valve is hardly negligible, but thought I should just put it out there. 

I'm not too worried about the incoming water timer/pump malfunctioning. It will be easier to spot since the tank water will be lower than its supposed to be. Actually, I don't think it should be a problem though. As you've mentioned before, there's always a siphon in the tubing between pump #2 and float valve #1, so if water is drained in the main tank, it doesn't matter if the pump doesn't work. The water will still automatically siphon from the storage tank, until the point where the water levels are the same between both tanks. Now that I think about it, the filling process can rely entirely on the siphon effect alone because the water storage tank will also be refilling itself when float valve #2 senses a drop in the water level. The pump only serves to speed up the refilling process and as a backup if the siphon ever gets broken. 

If the drain pump malfunctions, then in essence, the system would become a continuous overflow system, since the water will continue to rise until it hits the overflow. It won't be as I designed it to be, but it would still be doing what I intended it to do by changing the water. I won't spot it as quickly, but eventually this can also be fixed when its time to do maintenance on the tanks. 

Can you see if there was another redundancy I might have missed? 

Based on your modifications, here are the chain of events as I'm understanding it:

1. Pump #1 drains the tank according to the timer, opening float valve #1.

2. With float valve #1 opened, the display tank will begin to fill back up via the siphon and the timed pump. This causes float valve #2 to drop. 

3. With float valve #2 opened, water from the RO unit will refill the storage tank until it closes again.

Does this sound correct?


----------



## Zapins

I used saddle valves in my original design but they are not very reliable. I've talked to several people (plumbers) and they all say they are not good long term solutions. The ones I used occasionally dripped despite having been tightly secured on the house lines. If possible you should try hook up the system without using saddle valves. The boiler at my house was recently replaced, so I had the opportunity to add in two new threaded valves coming out the top of the boiler. I went to the hardware store and bought fittings that all thread into the valve to replace the saddle valves I originally had.

I'm also not sure that the house's water pressure will be high enough to run your RO system. Mine was not so I had to buy a booster pump off ebay for about $90. Have you got the RO system up and running or are you still in the planning phase?

Float valves all have ratings for what kind of pressure they can handle. The ones I bought can take over 100 psi if I remember right. I think most float valves can take quite a lot before failing, probably more than your house's water system can supply.

The water won't be a continuous overflow because the float valve will shut off the siphon/pump in the storage bin. So the tank will just top itself up from evaporation without changing any water. The float valve should be placed below the overflow's opening since the overflow is only for emergency draining. Also, be sure that you test the system out once you make it. So manually hold the float valve in the open position and let the water be pumped into the fish tank at max pump 2 speed. You want to be sure that the overflow is large enough to constantly drain all the water that pump 2 can put into the fish tank if something goes wrong.

Yes your description of the events sounds right.



> Can you see if there was another redundancy I might have missed?


Not sure what you mean exactly.


----------



## heartnet

Everything is still in the planning phase.

Thanks for the headsup on the saddle valves. I took a picture of the water lines I will be using. 









The threaded tubing seems to be attached via a nut that can be unscrewed, so it looks like I might have the option of adding some kind of fitting where I can tee off a smaller tubing size to the RO filter. Is there a fitting that would allow the storage tank to be refill automatically as planned? What kind of fittings did you use? And how did you incorporate the booster pump into your current design?

In my response to your message here:


> Still though be aware that if the incoming water timer/pump does not turn on you'll have a half filled tank where the discus have 50% of the water they did before until you notice it. If the drain pump timer breaks you'll have no water changes at all because the float valve and the relay (if you are going to use it) will both prevent the pump in the storage bin from turning on. But you will think the water change system is working properly. The tank will just top itself up as evaporation brings the level of the water down past the valve/sensors.


Yes, the float is going to be placed below the overflow.

You mentioned that if the storage tank pump breaks, then there would only be 50% of the water level in the display tank. I imagined there would always be a siphon in the tubing from the storage tank to the float valve in the tank. So even if the pump didn't work, wouldn't the decreased water levels allow the float valve in the display tank to top the tank until it was restored to normal levels.

And I see. In the event the drain pump broke, then the water storage tank wouldn't be able to pump water into the tank because the closed float valve in the display tank would prevent that.

Sorry if my question was worded ackwardly. I guess you can chalk that up to late night excursions also? haha

What I meant to say was there any potential flaw in the design I might have overlooked or needed to address?


----------



## Zapins

Ahh yes you are lucky since you have faucet fittings to work with. I had a simple copper pipe coming out the top of the boiler. The fittings I used were from home depot. I used lots of small ice maker fittings (the ones that fit on 1/8" plastic tubing). I'll try take a picture of the setup when I next get home.



> Is there a fitting that would allow the storage tank to be refill automatically as planned? What kind of fittings did you use?


My storage bin is a plastic food grade barrel. I drilled a hole in the plastic and screwed the float valve into the hole. The fittings for securing the 1/8" plastic tube from my RO system to the float valve came with the float valve. Just make sure that when you buy the float valve you are buying the correct diameter one. I saw 1/4", 1/8", 1/2" float valves for sale on ebay.

As for the booster, it is placed before the RO system. So fresh water from your house goes to the booster pump then to your RO system. It is an inline pump that increases the water pressure dramatically. I can't remember the exact numbers but for RO systems to work efficiently they need at least 100 psi. Some people's house water pump can put out this kind of pressure but a lot can't. My house pressure is 50-60 psi so I had to buy the booster. You might get lucky. Be sure to buy an RO system that has a pressure gauge attached otherwise you'll be in the dark as to whether you need a booster or not.

When I posted that about the 50% full I was assuming you still wanted to use the relays, so if the relay and solenoid between the tank and storage bin broke then the solenoid would keep the water off despite the float valve being open. But it looks like you won't be using relays so ignore that bit 

Haha, yeah its easy to get caught up in the details with this kind of project, lots of tubes/devices/places where things can go wrong and get confusing.

As far as the overall design. I think things are pretty well protected. Everything has a fail safe on it so floods should be extremely unlikely unless a pipe bursts or springs a leak.










Possible outcomes:
If pump 1 or timer 1 fail then no water changes occur. No flood risk.
If float valve 1 fails then you have the overflow to prevent floods.
If pump 2 or timer 2 fail then your tank simply tops itself up via siphon. No flood risk.
If float valve 2 fails then you have the overflow to prevent flooding the storage bin.
A power outage will not cause a flood since the float valves prevent water from moving around and the pumps are not moving water around.

The only time you might have issues with flooding is if both the float valve and the overflow fail at the same time. If you make the overflow wide enough this shouldn't occur unless a discus dies and blocks it somehow. Maybe you could add a few bits of wire around the top of the overflow to ensure any dead fish or plant material can't block the opening.

I suppose you could always design another 3rd layer of protection by incorporating solenoids and water sensors but I think that might be overkill.

Actually, on second thought, I think you need to figure out a way of preventing pump 1 from siphoning the tank into the drain. Either have the tube going up and emptying above the rim of the tank or you need to drain it into a second overflow. You could connect the drainage tube to a second overflow (separate from the emergency overflow) so the drainage tube is continuous with #1 in the diagram below. Note, the white part of the tube on the right is filled with air and has a black hole drilled in the top. This part sits at the waterline on the outside of the tank.


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## heartnet

It's funny you mentioned the need to prevent pump 1 from siphoning the tank to the drain.

Today, I started working on the system by assembling the pump, hoses and fittings from the tank to the drain and found a stupid simple way to prevent exactly what you just mentioned.

Once it was setup, I decided to test run it and found out the pump was only needed to start a siphon from the tank to the drain. Once the siphon started, I could turn off the pump and the siphon will continue, albeit slower. When the water level decreased to the level where the pump was, the siphon automatically broke because it started sucking in air and voila! Problem solved! arty: No burning pump I might have to worry about, no extra work or parts. Just physics at work! I would have to make sure the pump is at a level where it would still leave a sufficient amount of water for the fish to swim in. And I will probably only time it long enough for the pump to start the siphon, so maybe a minute or two.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a fitting that would allow the storage tank to be refill automatically as planned? What kind of fittings did you use?
> 
> 
> 
> My storage bin is a plastic food grade barrel. I drilled a hole in the plastic and screwed the float valve into the hole. The fittings for securing the 1/8" plastic tube from my RO system to the float valve came with the float valve. Just make sure that when you buy the float valve you are buying the correct diameter one. I saw 1/4", 1/8", 1/2" float valves for sale on ebay.
Click to expand...

Oh and curse my sentence syntax, but I meant is there a fitting for the faucet connection that would still allow water to flow freely without me having to turn those faucets? I know a lot of people who install RO filters also use those kind of screw on fittings, but would it still allow the float valves and booster pump to draw water as needed automatically?

I think for the most part, I have almost everything planned out with the exception for the faucet connection to the RO filter. From the looks and sound of it, I think I have enough fail safes for emergencies. There's always going to be someone around the place, so I don't think it will be too much a problem if anything pops up.

So here's a shopping list I made:


2x Float valves
RO filter with pressure gauge
Water storage tank
Proper fittings for the RO filter-Faucet connection
Booster pump (if needed after finding out the PSI of my cold water line)

That looks about complete doesn't it?


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## Zapins

Convinient! Physics helps out again.

Yes that looks like the list of everything you need.

As far as the fittings, the RO unit should come with fittings that connect to standard faucet threads.

You won't have to turn on and off the faucet every time. Just leave it always on. The float valve will shut off the water filling up the storage bin and the back pressure it generates prevents water flowing through the RO unit.

I'm looking forwards to seeing pics.


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## heartnet

So I went ahead to get a filter and I settled on the dual RO/DI system that Aqua-safe systems sells. It comes with a TDS meter, a pressure gauge and a float valve for the storage tank. Here's a link if anyone is interested:http://www.aquasafecanada.com/store/aquarium-ro-di-systems/aquarium-ii-dual-ro-di-system (Please remove it, if commercial links are not allowed.) The only thing I still need is a float valve for the display tank, since their float valve needs to be installed via drilling through the side.

I asked the manager whether a boosting pump was necessary and I got this interesting tidbit of information.

me: Yes, that made sense. Thanks. What about PSI requirements? Someone bought to my attention that my household's PSI might not be enough to actually push water through the filter as most households operate under a certain PSI. Would a boosting pump be necessitated with this system?

*Mgr: well... If you have lower then 45psi (which if your on city suply) is unlikely as most psi from city or municipalities are above 50psi. Are you on a well? If lower then 45 you will most likely need a pump*

me: No, I live in NYC, so I'm on a city supply.

*Mgr: your good to go then*

me: Great, so the minimum PSI to run this system is 50 psi?

*Mgr: yeah... 45 psi at the lowest...*

Thoughts Michael?


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## Zapins

Well, technically that is correct it will function at 45 psi, but it won't be efficient from what I remember. You need at least 65 psi from what I've read around the internet for decent functioning of the pump. Say if you buy a 100 gallon per day filter and you have low pressure at 45 psi you'll get way less than 100 gpd out of the machine (maybe 80 gpd?). Also your waste water % will be higher.

RO units don't turn all incoming water into RO water, they basically filter out the minerals in the water by shoving them into the waste water. The higher the incoming pressure is the less waste water is made.

I bought this 6 stage RO/DI system a few years ago and have been very happy with it from ebay, total cost was about the same as the site you linked so either look like good buys. I linked some info below since I found it useful when I was researching RO systems.

AQUARIUM RO 2DI REVERSE OSMOSIS WATER FILTRATION SYSTEM	1	$132.00	
Garden Laundry hose adapter connector for RO DI System	................1	$8.00	
TDS Water Quality Meter Tester Monitor RO DI System .....................	1	$24.00	
DI Resin Refill Bag De-mineralized De-Ionization Filter	........................1	$18.00	
Shipping ........................................................................................... $4
*Total*: $186

From http://stores.ebay.com/filterdirectstore



> Model: RD-102
> 
> 6-stage 100gal/day Reverse Osmosis Water System+2DI filters (stand alone unit, no drinking faucet, no pressure tank) + Bonus Pressure Gauge
> 
> This system is a 6-stage 100 gallon per day reverse osmosis + 2DI filter system with single outputs (mainly for Aquarium and Reef).
> 
> * Note: 100 gallons per day capacity is the maximum production rate of the system, actual production rate depends on input pressure and temperature. For example, at 65psi and 60 degrees the system makes 100 gallons per day or about 3 gallons per hour. Lower input pressure and temperature would decrease production rate.


Here is a chart he had on the filter description, so it looks like its most efficient at pressures above 70 psi not 100 psi like I stated previously. I think my booster pump is putting out 90-100 psi but I will haven't seen it in a while so I might be miss remembering, but even so it is still better than having low pressure.










I got my float valve off ebay since they had a good selection of valves and I found one that wouldn't be too big to fit in the tank.


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## heartnet

That chart is really a nice visual. Using that chart, it appears the system will work, albeit not as efficiently because you are correct in that aspect. A lower PSI will undoubtedly produce less GPD than the advertised amount.

When I get the system up and running, I'll report back with actual numbers on the PSI. But in the meantime, let's say the PSI was indeed low, what about the use of a flow restrictor to force the system to produce more water by controlling the ratio of the waste water? The manager also mentioned this flow restrictor (http://www.aquasafecanada.com/store/water-filtration-parts-accessories/ez-flush-flow-restrictor) was included along with the system.

Other than more stress on the actual filtering units themselves, you see any potential adverse effects resulting from its use?

Edit: By the way, does the size of the float valve matter? I'm planning to get this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MINI-Adjust...all_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item1e68e51796.


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## Zapins

Hmm I've never really looked into flow restrictors. What do they do? The description seems to be talking about using it to increase the psi to 700 to clean off calcium from the RO membrane?

The valve you linked is rated a bit too low I think. The pressure rating is 0.6 MPA which is 87.022 PSI. Meaning if your water pressure goes above that it can force the valve open even if the valve is completely underwater. 

Better go with a slightly larger valve something that can handle at least 120 psi, if not 150 psi. I think the size of the float is directly related to the amount of psi it can stop. 

Also, the one you linked is a variable control valve (see the steel screw?) this is good. Make sure you buy a valve that you can adjust the level on, otherwise positioning it perfectly by drilling your storage bin will be a nightmare.

Also, the link you posted for the RO unit seems to come with a storage tank of 4 gallons? You won't need that, see if removing it will reduce the cost of the system/shipping.

Have you decided on what you are going to use for the storage bin? I looked on craigslist and found 2 x 55 gallon plastic food grade drums for maybe $40 each, then I tapped them together to make a 110 gallon storage reservoir.


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## heartnet

> Hmm I've never really looked into flow restrictors. What do they do? The description seems to be talking about using it to increase the psi to 700 to clean off calcium from the RO membrane?


I'm not terribly sure either. I'm just going to quote what the manager told me:



> the great thing is that you have 100% control over the discharge water ratios of the system which means that you can apply more flow restriction then normal if need be to force the system to produce


I already placed the order for the system; and yes, I selected the option of having that storage tank subtracted from the total. It comes with a pressure gauge, TDS meter and a float valve for the storage tank. I'll need to look around for the display tank's float valve.

The problem with the storage tank is that I'm going to be putting it into a rather small space, so I needed it to be under 20 inches diameter-wise. I searched around to compare prices and I settled on this, although I haven't placed the order yet. http://www.plastic-mart.com/product/7966/45-gallon-vertical-bulk-storage-tank-tc1851ic

It's small diameter, yet tall height, is perfect my needs. I looked into buying separate tanks to drill together, but decided against it because of the ultimate space constraints and labor involved. But for everyone else, the sky is your limit in deciding what to use for storing water.

Once I get all the equipment and finish assembling the entire system, I can do a cost tally of what my system costs in relation to other variations on this system.


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## Zapins

Here are the plumbing fittings that I will use when I get a chance to hook them up with the main plumbing. The brass connector at the bottom will be soldered onto a standard size copper pipe, and then the copper pipe will be attached to standard thread that will connect with my house's main water supply.










Here are the two 55g plastic water storage bins for RO/DI water. I connected them together at the bottom and made a T connection so I can fill buckets of water up when I want to. The bin on the right is the one connected to the RO machine. It fills up and then because of the tubing connection at the bottom it fills up the 2nd bin on the left. The second bin is elevated 2-3 inches so it can never overflow as the rim of the bin is above the 1st bin. Also the bin on the right (attached to the RO unit) sits in a washing machine water catch basin which is connected to my drain tub in case the float valve ever breaks the 1st tub will overflow into the drain system.

The plastic white pipe above the tub is what I use to pump water out of the bins into my tanks.

Sorry for the dark picture, the light bulb blew and I didn't have a replacement.


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## Diana K

Just a caution to anyone doing a connection to the water in the house:
Make sure there is absolutely no way that contaminated water can back up into the house plumbing. Use appropriate anti-siphon devices to isolate your aquarium systems.


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## heartnet

Zapins said:


> Here are the plumbing fittings that I will use when I get a chance to hook them up with the main plumbing. The brass connector at the bottom will be soldered onto a standard size copper pipe, and then the copper pipe will be attached to standard thread that will connect with my house's main water supply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the two 55g plastic water storage bins for RO/DI water. I connected them together at the bottom and made a T connection so I can fill buckets of water up when I want to. The bin on the right is the one connected to the RO machine. It fills up and then because of the tubing connection at the bottom it fills up the 2nd bin on the left. The second bin is elevated 2-3 inches so it can never overflow as the rim of the bin is above the 1st bin. Also the bin on the right (attached to the RO unit) sits in a washing machine water catch basin which is connected to my drain tub in case the float valve ever breaks the 1st tub will overflow into the drain system.
> 
> The plastic white pipe above the tub is what I use to pump water out of the bins into my tanks.
> 
> Sorry for the dark picture, the light bulb blew and I didn't have a replacement.


It's good to see your setup. I'm assuming the only reason you created that complex fitting was because you couldn't work with faucet fittings right? So you're pretty much just grafting that modded pipe into the house's main supply line?

So all in all, your storage tank system holds about 110 gallon of distilled water? In this case, your emergency overflow would be the elevated position of the bins and your washing machine's catch basin.

Is the water transferred to your tanks via a pump, controlled by float valves, like in my case?

I like your modification to the tank that allows you the option to fill up a bucket. I'll probably do the same.

Here are some updates on my build. I still haven't acquired all the necessary parts, plus I realized I needed to get some tools like a dremel and diamond drill bit for the overflow and plumbing.

Here's the RO/DI filter itself:










Here's the adapter tee to the cold water line fittings. It's a combination of a extension tee, with a delrin sleeve/insert and a compression nut. Once it's screwed on properly and tightly, it works like a charm.










After it goes through the eighth stage of filtration, the filtered water exits in two ways; one, it goes to faucet for drinking water in the kitchen (left side) and the other side goes to the aquarium water storage tank with the float valve (right side).










Here's how the setup looks underneath the sink. I drilled a hole above the doors to snake out any tubing. The orange colored tubing is the waste water line, which will be configured to be right next to the drain nearby.


















This is an accurate schematic straight from the aquasafe site. http://www.aquasafecanada.com/store/aquarium-ro-di-systems/aquarium-ii-dual-ro-di-system










I already have both of the float valves; the left one is going to be easier to mount vertically, so that's going into the display tank. The right one will be going into the storage tank, as it's configuration is suited for a bulkhead-style setup.










Updated to get list:

Storage tank
Bulkhead fittings and miscallenous plumbing
Dremel
Diamond drill bit


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## heartnet

Some updates on the system build.

I managed to drill the hole for the emergency overflow. For future reference, do not use a cordless drill. It took nearly 2-3 hours for me to finish because I had to recharge it several times to get the RPM I wanted.

Here's the tank during the drill process. The livestock were fine during the process and had no problem afterwards from using the water to cool the drill bit. Most of the cooled water were separated by the 2" poret foam and was largely filtered by the filter intake.










I used the water output from the filters to cool the diamond drill bit.










Finally through...

The fan is used to dry out the back where some water leaked out when I was almost through the glass.










I ran into some problems while proceeding:

1. *Water storage tank size*

Apparently, there was a problem with the storage tank which made me forgo it altogether; as a result, I had to improvise with a 5 gallon bucket. This meant that I couldn't do as large a water change as I had intended to. The storage tank was originally 45 gallons, so that meant a 64% water change every time the system drained and refilled my tank (70 gallons).

So instead of having one big WC, I decided to split up the water changes into smaller increments over the course of a day with the 5 gallon bucket. The digital timer I have can be programmed for 20 settings every day, so I'm going to have the drain/pump timers aligned to turn on at set intervals during the days to drain/pump 5 gallons totaling 50%, or more, at the end of the day.

I think this method might be even better for the tank inhabitants because the smaller water changes will be less of a shock to them.

2. *Display tank float valve *

Originally, I wanted to use a second float valve on the display tank to control the water storage tank pump. I kept tinkering with the idea, but I really had trouble devising a way to anchor the float valve to the display tank in a aesthetically non-intrusive way, and finding the right fittings to connect the pump tubing to the push-connect tubing that the float valve used. So instead of thinking about it, I decided to forgo the float valve altogether too. I decided to just leave the pump output tubing from the water storage tank open-ended above the tank. Since the bucket is going to be higher than the tank, I initially worried about a siphon effect, but it shouldn't be a problem with the emergency overflow and it's small water volume.

3. *Straight RO/DI water*

I researched more into using RO/DI water with discus and came to the conclusion that its generally a bad idea to use straight RO/DI water. I thought about teeing off the cold water feed line for the tap before it went to the filter, but found it significantly reduced the pressure for the water faucet. I also thought about reconstituting the RO/DI water with minerals, but this would potentially be cost ineffective and a hassle. Luckily, I had another cold water faucet fitting from the toilet to use; I'm assuming there shouldn't be a problem from doing that, since there're both tapping the same water pipe.

Updated to get list:

Uni-seal for emergency overflow in the bucket
Bulkhead for the display tank
Miscellaneous plumbing parts


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## heartnet

Zapins, I encountered a problem with the placement of the bucket and its siphon. Originally, I intended to let it break mechanically when the pump lowered the water to a level where it sucked in air. But I overlooked the part where the float valve in the bucket would automatically start to refill at the same time, thus creating a ongoing siphon that never stops.

So, I needed to find a way to stop the water when the float valve falls when water is being pumped into the tank. I decided to work with a solenoid after looking at your design again, but opted for one that is normally open and only closed when energized. Here's the solenoid valve I'm looking at.

I was wondering if it would work and how I would go about wiring it because I see that your solenoid also had to be configured to a plug.


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## niko

Zapins!

I'd like to know if you have tried playing this like a flute:







\

Don't hesitate to try! It looks promising!


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## Zapins

After what seemed like forever midterms are over for my masters program and I finally have a bit of time to look at APC.

Niko, that is hilarious! It really does look like a flute now that you mention it.

Heartnet, congrats on a successful attempt at drilling the tank! I'm really curious to see how you did it though. What bit did you use and how did you prevent the glass from cracking? Do you put a lot or a little pressure on it and how straight do you have to hold the drill for it to work? Was it tricky?

A pity about the storage tank. Will you get a bigger one in the future or will you stick with the 5g bucket?

If you do decide to use a float valve you could probably rig something out of PVC pipe fittings. The nice thing about PVC pipe is that you can use the pipe sealant to join or modify the fixture so it fits perfectly. If you are concerned about the appearance in the tank you can always use a black epoxy to pain the fixture and valve black so it is less noticeable.



















Using straight RO/DI water probably isn't the best idea, but you can add back the minerals manually in chemical form, or as you said by using a small percentage normal tap water.

As for the solenoid, its not ideal to rely on the solenoids to shut off incoming water but it is definitely a valid approach to shutting off the bucket refilling water. It will break the siphon effect. I still think you should try use the float valve though, perhaps in addition to the solenoid. Water damage can occur quickly and is extremely expensive and irritating to fix. I flooded my house 3 times over the years when I used to manually fill up tanks with a hose. I'd forget the water was filling and then return to the room 10 minutes later to find dozens of gallons of water had soaked through the floor into the room below, requiring replacement of carpet padding, carpet cleaning, insulation replacement, expensive anti fungal treatments, and lots of time.

Also, even though you can use a solenoid to control the water flow, I still think you should either configure your solenoid to be a closed always solenoid or buy the closed when unpowered type. If the power goes out (like last week with the hurricane/etc...) there is often still plenty of water pressure in the lines. If the solenoid is always open when unpowered it will let water fill and siphon, wasting water and potentially setting up a situation for an overflow if the drain system is blocked or compromised. In addition to that possible overflow situation having a constant flow of cold city water going into your discus tank during a power outage is not ideal. Even a small amount of cold water added to your main tank can drop the temperature quickly reducing the amount of time your tank is warm. This could make the difference between your fish dying of cold or being ok.

Here are the wiring instructions for the relay I used: 
http://www.aquahub.com/store/media/TopitOffKitPremiumInstruxCompDec07.pdf


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## heartnet

I couldn't take a video because my hands were tied, but this 



video is pretty much what steeled my nerves. It's pretty much the same concept. The really tricky part is the positioning of the drill and how you angle it to prevent it from slipping too much when you start drilling. I used a drill guide from BRS along with their diamond drill bit. From there, all that is needed is a slow and steady pressure against the glass with care about being especially slow when you feel/see the bit is almost through; otherwise, you risk the glass edge cracking/flaking and you wouldn't get a smooth edged hole. That, in addition to finding a way to cool your drill bits, are the only real challenges to drilling a tank that already has water in it.

Oh and you also will have to find a way to bear the screeching of diamonds grinding at glass at god knows how many rotations. It's best to do it when no body is around. :lalala:

Since I'm having some trouble with the solenoid working, I'm going to follow your advice with using the float valve in the display tank; I did not think about the constant cold water change if it somehow malfunctioned. Since it's in such a small container, I decided I'm only go to aerate and age it without a heater. I figured 4 gallons of cold water in the scope of the entire tank volume isn't really going to shock the tank inhabitants that much.

I already have everything needed to hook it up. I'll take pictures when I'm done setting it up. The malfunctioning solenoid does throw a wrench in the plans, but it shouldn't be any major impediment with the float valve utilized.


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## heartnet

Update.

I finished the AWC system a month or two ago, and its been working flawlessly since.

Here is how the drain pump, emergency overflow and float valve are positioned overall. (The tubing with the tee and a valve at the end is just an outlet where I can draw water from the tank if I ever wanted to.










The drain pump is hooked up to a digital timer with settings for 20 daily water changes for a duration of 2 minutes at hourly intervals. (Its the tube that snakes all the way up and then down again)

I estimate that approxiametely 4.2 gallons of water are pumped out every hour based on the water height difference after the water pump does its thing. (LWH/231 = total gallons; 36"x18"x1.5"/231=4.2078 ) This occurs for 20 times a day, so 4.2 times 20 gives me a total daily water change of 84 gallons, which should mean its equal to a complete 100% WC and then some, more or less. If anybody sees an error with my calculations, by all means, please correct me.

The drain pump and emergency overflow shares the same tubing, which snakes into a drain in the bathroom floor.

Next is how clean water gets into the tank.

This is where it starts. It's supplied mainly by the gray tubing which is simply tap water (~50tds) and the blue line that tees into the gray line is for RO water if I ever wanted to supply that (~0tds). As you may have noticed, its quite soft either way.










The gray tubing snacks up into the transitional water holding bucket which stores water and is controlled via a float valve too.










The bucket itself also has an emergency overflow in case the float valve ever malfunctions.










There is a pump in the bucket which attaches to another set of gray tubing, which pumps water into the main tank.










And here's the float valve in the display tank itself.










So far, its been working flawlessly. The only problem I encountered was periodic condensation all over the gray tubing because of the extreme temperature discrepancy from the cold water line. (It's the same condensation that occurs in most toilets too) In my case, it wasn't too big of a problem. But if it stretches over something you might not want water dripping on from time to time, then it might be a problem. I could probably put some non-glass heater in the bucket itself to better match the atmospheric temperature, but I don't think it warrants it yet, so I'm leaving it at that.

I'll do a thorough breakdown for the total cost of the entire system when I get around to it. But a ballpark estimates put all the actual parts I used at around ~$50? This was not including all the parts I bought and never used for the actual build including the RO filter, 45gal water storage bin, electric solenoid, miscellaneous tubings and wires etc.


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## Zapins

Your pictures brought a grin to my face 

Its looking really good! I'm glad you got it up and running I was beginning to wonder how it turned out. I also get condensation like that from time to time, particularly when the water change system is run for long periods of time constantly. I think there are some commercial wires or something like that which prevents condensation on pipes. I'm not sure what they are called exactly but they wrap around the pipe and heat it slightly to prevent water from adhering. Your idea of a heater in the tub would probably work too.

I also took a few weeks/months to work my way up to plumbing my system after the boiler was replaced and my first auto WC system was disconnected. I'll post pics of my changes soon. I added proper copper pipes this time instead of ice-maker taps. Should last a little longer


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## Zapins

Reposting a PM with beachguy1957 since it contains good questions about the overflow design.



beachguy1957 said:


> What I am asking is - You have a very nice post showing your overflow in two versions - One with an upturned 90 determining waterlevel, THEN you changed to what looks like a downpipe near the center water level of the tank....no longer at water level but way below.......... WHY did you change to the downpipe?


I changed the upturned 90° end to a down turned pipe for 2 reasons. The first is that I noticed that upturned pipes tend to catch floating leaves and debris. This is a problem because these floating items could potentially block the entire overflow drainage pipe. This increased risk of blockage in turn increases the possibility that the tank will overflow. If the overflow pipe becomes blocked then the only thing that prevents the entire tank from overflowing is the float valve that is supposed to prevent water from entering the tank. These valves are notoriously not reliable (think of how many times your bathroom toilet has flushing problems that require tinkering with the float valve inside).

By turning the overflow pipe down so that it is straight the risk of clogging is minimized. Dead floating fish, and plant leaves tend to gather at the surface only and do not accumulate in the middle of the water column. Installing some kind of mesh over the entrance into the siphon is also a good idea as many fish will become stupidly curious, swim up the pipe and then die and clog it.



beachguy1957 said:


> and, wont that potentially siphon down to that level?


No, siphons work by draining down to the lowest point and no farther. An overflow requires a hole at the top of one of the pipes to prevent a siphon from forming. I placed a hole just above #3 in the following diagram. I also modified the overflow slightly by adding an aqualifer pump between 1 and 2 (drilled a small hole to continually suck out water and air bubbles that build up between 1 and 2).










Here is what I previously wrote about this graphic:


zapins said:


> I updated my overflow diagram. I think this one is much more clear. Basically the important thing to make sure of is that the top of pipe number 3 is below the U joint between 1 and 2 but at the same time the top of pipe number 3 must be above the bottom of pipe 1 (see dotted line in diagram). This ensures that the siphon tube never runs dry (solid blue tube).
> 
> When the overflow is set up in this fashion you will drain the tank water down to the point indicated (see before and after diagrams). Any water added to the tank after the initial setup will flow through the overflow pipe.
> 
> Also, since I made this design I had to drill a small hole in the overflow on the top of the U joint between pipes 1 and 2. I ran a small 1/8" tube into the hole and sealed it. The tube runs into an aqualifter pump which sucks water and air out of the U joint ensuring that gas bubbles do not build up there and break the seal. This system has worked well.


The link to the original post is here if you want to read more:http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...er-change-system-design-diy-3.html#post583811



beachguy1957 said:


> I don't understand why there is not more discussion on these no drill overflows.


Not sure. I suppose most people just do water changes with tubes or buckets. I got tired of that and made a full automatic WC system.


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## jhonson smith

The process of such water changing in the aquarium looks so tricky but I will try this at once to my little aquarium.I think this idea of changing the water works a lot in future.


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## TropTrea

With my Salt water system I set up something simular with a few exceptions. 

1. The main tank I drilled into the side of the tank and had a surface skimmer set up that maintained a constant water level. 

2. The main tank was on the first floor and the rest of the plumbing was in the basement. including a holding tank. of 90 gallons, as well as a second 90 gallon refugium.

3. With salt water there is an issue of keeping a constant alkalinity. So I had the first 90 gallon vat as my premixed salt water which I feed upstairs into my my main tanks at a rate of about 1/2 gallon per hour. This allowed me to do a premix of the 90 gallons roughly once per week.

4. The circulation pump between the was in a small sump container and pumped the water up into the main tank at a rate of 250 gallons per hour. This was actually a 1,500 gph pump however with the head height being about 15 feet resulted in the lower flow.

5. The waste water was removed from the system in the sump with a an overflow line again set into the side of the tank. 

Initially I discovered several issues with the system. The biggest one was initial lack of compensation for evaporation. In the winter month the evaporation rate from the system was about 45 gallons per week and in the summer with the higher humidity in the air it would drop to about 15 gallons a week. Therefore I had to constantly alter the salinity mix in the holding tank to prevent the salinity from creeping up on me. 

The way the entire system was set up is I was flowing the water through a water colmun that consists of several tanks. 1-120gallon main tank and 1 40 Gallon main tank upstairs for display. Downstairs I had the column going through 3-30 gallon Frag tanks, a 30 gallon tank with my Protein skimmers, a 20 gallon tank for my mechanical filtration and then the 90 gallon vat for my refugium. So the total water column was roughly 360 gallons and with the 90 gallons I used to add of fresh water every week gave me roughly a 25% water change every week. 

The other big draw back was the cost of the water mix and system power. I'd be running roughly 4,700 gallons of new water a year, with the cost of the salt it came out to roughly $1,000 worth of salt every year. Lighting was using up roughly 4,000 KWH's a year for an additional cost of $600+ not counting the power to run the circulation pumps.


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## HDBenson

This discussion is amazing. I'm a stay-at-home dad of a five month old currently and will be starting on-line classes in the spring to finish my degree. I've been tinkering with this idea for a while. With the birth of my daughter I have had to cut WAY back on the amount of time I spend with my aquariums for the last six months. My fiance and I are moving into a house next month and she gave me the go-ahead on a fishroom(!!!!!!!!!!)! I have several tanks not in use right now( 100g, 55g, and 26g). Still have my 10g, 20g long, and another 26g up and running at the moment. I can easily do quick 10-25% WC on all three of these guys in about 30mins with hose&bucket while she sleeps. However, once these big guys are going again I'm looking for something like this to help me out. I'm not as interested in the Autofill as I am the self-draining part. I enjoy the filling of tanks lol(crazy huh?)! Merely being able to drain with ease would cut back more than enough labor for me especially on the 55 and 100. Zapins, would your drain system be able to be modified with smaller pipes i.e. 1" PVC with a hose connection w/ some type of valve at the end to an outside source? I would assume to do this without any mechanical parts(pumps) I would still have to start a siphon action of sorts? If this were the case would it be just as easy and obviously cheaper to siphon the water out with a long enough piece of tubing to a drain in the house somewhere or, to the garden??


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## Zapins

HDBenson said:


> I'm not as interested in the Autofill as I am the self-draining part. I enjoy the filling of tanks lol(crazy huh?)! Merely being able to drain with ease would cut back more than enough labor for me especially on the 55 and 100.
> 
> Zapins, would your drain system be able to be modified with smaller pipes i.e. 1" PVC with a hose connection w/ some type of valve at the end to an outside source?


There are a number of ways you can build the drainage system that would do what you want. I think the easiest way would be to buy a powerhead pump for each tank with a barbed plastic fitting on one end and plug them all into one power strip in the fish room.

Then secure each power head in the tank with suction cups (or with a frame) to the level you want to drain the tank to (at the 25%, 50% mark or 75% mark, etc) and then turn the power strip on when you want to drain the tank(s) down to that level.

This method would be cheap, since you don't need expensive and ugly PVC plastic pipe/glue/fittings - only plastic tubing from the hardware store, and effective because you won't need to rely on an overflow system or maintaining a siphon long term.

You would also not need a valve with this method (ignore the valve in the picture below) and you would not even need to be in the room when the tanks drain since the lowest the water level would go is wherever the pumps are stuck to the side of the tank.










Another way you could do it is without the pump at all, you could secure a tube to the inside of your tank at the level you want to drain the tank to and then instal a valve on the outside of the tank fairly low down. Then get a siphon going and before the water level drains down to the open end of the tube in the tank close the valve. This would stop any further water from draining into the tank and at the same time it would maintain the siphon inside the tube since both ends of the tube would not be able to break the siphon.

The problem with this method is that you'd have to watch the drainage quite closely on each tank and make sure the siphon did not break before you closed the valve. Also, securing the free end of the tube inside the tank may be difficult.



HDBenson said:


> I would assume to do this without any mechanical parts(pumps) I would still have to start a siphon action of sorts? If this were the case would it be just as easy and obviously cheaper to siphon the water out with a long enough piece of tubing to a drain in the house somewhere or, to the garden??


The first part of this question is answered above. The second part, yes, if you are able to drain water down and out of the fish room into the garden that could work. I know in my garden the water table is fairly high where the draining tube empties, so the ground gets a bit soggy there. If you have good drainage, or can drain the water far enough away from where you walk outside then that would work well.

In my area it is not legal to drain large amounts of water (from a fish room) into the septic system on my house (or into the public sewer system), so the only alternative I had was to drain it 15 feet away from the outside of the house. In other areas it may be different. If you want to do it to code you can find out what is allowed by calling up your local town hall (google the tel #) and ask them what to do. That is how I found out about my area.


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## HDBenson

Much appreciated!


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## BruceF

I use a simple gravity fed drain system on my tanks. I simply need to open and close the valve to make it work. If I am not watching the syphon breaks at whatever level I have set the intake at. Each syphon simply has an extension tube with a cap that makes it simple to restart the syphon if it does break.

Something like this. 
http://archive.kaskus.co.id/thread/10057753/0/diy-pvc-overflow


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## Raul-7

If you have space for a water reservoir or if you have one (ie. you use RO water) you could always use a dual peristaltic pump. They are industrial and robust, designed to remove and add water simultaneously.

http://www.lockewell.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6_30_33&products_id=160

Just add a timer and you have an automatic water changing system.


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## Danielc03

I leave the system from a friend, which I like for the simple


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## HDBenson

Raul-7 said:


> If you have space for a water reservoir


For example another tank under the display tank, like a refugium or, just a large rubbermaid/tank with the pre-determined amount of water pre-treated?

After researching peristaltic pumps why don't we (aquarium keepers) all use these for water changes on a regular basis? This system although it can be rather expensive seems like an ALMOST fool-proof way to conduct water changes. I've seen kits on amazon where the pump unit itself is only about $10!! What is the catch here? And the dosing units for reef systems seem to be a big thing... why don't we freshwater keepers have these!?!?! I mean the double unit on the link up above is $300 so I understand why not a lot of people have them but, seriously..


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## Raul-7

HDBenson said:


> For example another tank under the display tank, like a refugium or, just a large rubbermaid/tank with the pre-determined amount of water pre-treated?
> 
> After researching peristaltic pumps why don't we (aquarium keepers) all use these for water changes on a regular basis? This system although it can be rather expensive seems like an ALMOST fool-proof way to conduct water changes. I've seen kits on amazon where the pump unit itself is only about $10!! What is the catch here? And the dosing units for reef systems seem to be a big thing... why don't we freshwater keepers have these!?!?! I mean the double unit on the link up above is $300 so I understand why not a lot of people have them but, seriously..


Exactly, any vessel that holds water will work. Essentially it has 2 rollers off the same pump - so it adds and removes water simultaneously. Meaning no guessing, etc. and unlike other peristaltic pumps it requires no calibration once you determine how much it removes initially.

The one I linked above is industrial, so it's proven - regular dosers have a limited lifespan and aren't designed to remove large volumes of liquid.

People on ReefCenral having been using the same pump with great success for 5 years or more.


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## TropTrea

That system will not work for me. Because one of the many reasons I like to do water changes is to remove the sediment from the bottom of the tanks with a very mild suction action. I use 5/16 " tubing with a gravity feed to remove the water and it works great. Then I simply pump the water from my RO container back into the tanks using a 250 gph pump. With 21 tanks going now and more on the way I can still do a 20 % water change in under an hour usually.


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