# green water



## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

hello all ....
fairly new to all this but here is a quick rundown of my problem

started tank with some plants and a few fish... bought a light a CF one thats a 50/50.

had lots of algea and was told to use c02... doing that and it helped but not totally.

now i have no plants and the same amount of fish.... still have green water... 

tried leaving light off for weeks at t atime and changeing water.... it clears up so i turn light on and within days i have green water again....

is it my light? 
the fish? 
my water?
my stupidity? 


Marco


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Hi Marco, welcome to the forum. There's some information missing that would help potenitally solve your algae woes. Things like tank size, light wattage, nutrient dosing, CO2 method, etc.

However, I saw this thread recently and thought it might be of interest.

-John N.


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

Marco, it's definitely not your stupidity. Everyone has to start somewhere, and being new doesn't qualify you as stupid =].

Like John said though, some more specific information on your tanks setup would help greatly.

Here's what I know. Supposedly 50/50 lights will not help you grow plants. You want a bulb that is somewhere between 5000 to 10000K (K denoting the color temperature) for plants to thrive. However, even using bulbs like those, you may still get green water. Why? Well, there are a number of reasons why you might be having green water. The first reason that comes to mind is that you may have your lights on for too long every day. I was at a fish store a couple months ago and a man who had a fish-only tank was talking to the owner about an algae problem he was having. Once he was done talking to the owner, I pulled him aside and asked him if he did anything with his lighting. He answered yes, that he had increased the length of the photoperiod (the length of time your lights are on), and I suggested he knock a couple hours off and see what happened. Now, I never saw him again, but hopefully my suggestion worked, lol. So how many hours a day do you have your lights on for?

Also, if you have a light plant load, in general algae seems to thrive. The most common explanation for this is that there isn't enough plant mass actively competing for the nutrients, which leaves a lot of leftovers for the algae, so getting more plants, or at least a couple fast growers like hornwart and anacrhis, might help you out. The addition of CO2 in the aquarium will boost plant growth, and should theoretically help the plants further with your battle against green water.

Also, if you have a high bioload (lots of fish, lots of poop), then the fish waste might actually be contributing to the green water's appearance. Something about more ammonia being available to it or whatnot... haha. 

So, here are some suggestions that MAY help you out. 

-Switch your 50/50 bulb to another bulb that isn't 50/50 (yes I'm good with words)
-Lower the lighting period by an hour or two
-Add more plant matter
-Think about lightening the fish load if it's really high unless you want to use the fish waste as the sole fertilizer of your plants
-Keep CO2 running for faster plant growth

And hopefully, your green water will die a slow, horrible death by starvation.

Hope that helps. If anyone wants to explain the science behind any of what I said, please do


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

ok i'll try and address both replies at once...

i believe its a 20 gal tank with 65 watts of 50/50 compact flourescent light.
no plants whatsoever at the moment...i have 1 pleco, 2 angelfish... one large other small.., and 5 zebra danios. the large angel fish is maybe 3 inches high and long.

i have a mix of maybe 65% laterite and 35% natural gravel.
again no plants right now...

using a filter... forget the brand name maybe a penguin 330 i think... 

using two bottles of diy co2... one running into intake of filter and other to a underground gravel filter return tube on it's side to keep a bubble of co2 in contact with water...in line with filter return so as to aid in mater movement around bubble....

i feed the fish once a day..

as far as photoperiod..... it was about 10 hours a day.. right now it's about 2 hours a day if it gets turned on at all.... could go days with light off and still have crappy looking water....

my wife says the tank is no fun since it got so complicated with fancy gravel and filters (shes a big fan of corner box filters) and expensive lights with timers and whatnot. her suggestion is to go back to primitive..

im actually afraid that this approch will work..... cause then i wont be able to grow plants. 
im very frustrated... it seems to go away some and i get hope it's clearing up.. then only to get bad again in a few days.

im about to give up

Marco


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

You need to get as many plants as you can in there as soon as possible. With no plants, the excess light (even if its from a 50/50) and CO2 is feeding the algae.

Until you get enough plants in there, you don't need the CO2. It the light a dual bulb? If so, remove one light.

Once you get plants (and get a lot more than you first think you need!), then you can go back to CO2. I'd also try to change out the 50/50 to something else.

Here's some reading that should help out with planted tank basics:

http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/01_intro.html

www.rexgrigg.com


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Once green water gets started it isn't easy to get rid of just by changing water conditions. You need to do a complete blackout for several days - ignore the fish for that long too. Or, you can get or borrow a UV filter and run the tank water thru that to kill the algae. Or, you can use a flocculating agent to make the green water algae clump together so the filter can remove it. The flocculating agent can harm the fish, so most people don't reccommend it. Probably the best thing would be to lower the water level, net out all of the fish and put them in a bucket of water from the tank, then change all of the water in the tank. Add dechlorinator to the water. Then acclimate the fish back to the new tank water and return them to the tank. Try very hard not to add any of the old water back into the tank. After that use much less light for short periods only and no CO2 or fertilizers until you get a lot of plants in the tank. A lot of plants is enough to almost cover the substrate surface, and fast growing stem plants are best. Only then can you increase the lighting, add CO2 and fertilizers.


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

ok well i thought Co2 was good to kill algea?? im wrong?

and the whole algea thing started when i had plants.... had like hair algea but not sure..... i could post a pic of the tank with the plants and algea on it. finally removed the plants and water cleared up some ... not completly but got better.... then added co2 again and it even cleared up more.... but alas it all returned and got dark green.... now i have it to a point where it's just kind of green but still looks ugly..... i guess i should post some pics of before and after and present huh?

Marco


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

You definately need some plants in there. get some wisteria (H. Difformis), hornwort, or anacharis and float it in the water for a couple days, this will help shade most of the water in your tank and the plant will suck up some nutrients as well. All of these plants are known for their thirst for nutrients. You will see roots start to come from the nodes on the stem and this will start to absorb nutrients. Adding CO2 does nothing if there aren't plants there to utilize it, it may even be working against you at this point helping the algae. 
Anyway, GW is caused by two main things, excess Ammonia and Excess Light. First off you said that you are using 50/50 bulbs, they aren't the plants favorites but they may still work temporarily. I would still recomend changing them out as soon as you can to something in the 5000-1000K range although that will not help solve the GW problem. After you get some plants in there adjust your photo period(the time the lights are on) to 8-10 hours a day. Also make sure your tank isn't infront of any windows because sunlight really messes up your lighting control. Also while this is going on keep your CO2 as high as possible without the fish showing any signs of gulping for air. 

Next thing, cut back on feeding the fish, they can survive on being feed every other day or even once every three days or so. I just feed my fish a small ammount every day, if a miss a day its not a big deal though. 

The reason you probably have ammonia in your tank is if its a new tank the filter hasn't had enough time to establish a healthy nitrifying bacteria colony, therefore it cannot do what its supposed to do yet and all the fish wastes and extra food decompose into Ammonia, which in an established tank would be quickly converted to nitrites and then nitrates which are pretty safe and does not produce GW as easy. If your tank hasn't been set up for at least a month then the filter is probably not capable of handling much if any fish load. So even if you didn't have fancy lighting or filtration you could have this problem.

Anyway, sorry for the mile long post but I think you have two options here... if your not planning to add plants in the near future you could go out and buy an algecide, a couple bucks and your tank will not be a great place for algae or plants for a while.... this will most likely solve the problem but you still have the underlying problem of an unestablished filter. The other option is to get started on plants right away even if it means floating them, no matter what though buy a lot of fast growing stem plants like the ones I mentioned before, worry about aquascaping later after things settle down. The more plants and CO2 you add the faster the nutrients will be absorbed, and the GW will be starved.

I hope this helps. Your wife will come around, once she sees some healthy plants and happy fish in there. Good luck.


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

ok real quick... i don't have an ammonia issue just so thats cleared up... 

here are a few pics of before CF light then with the light in a smaller tank and and then one of my plants wilting. then some of the start of the algea problem.... then my green water


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

last one


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

if the pics are too small let me know i'll play with them to get them as big as allowed


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

CO2 is a great fertilizer for algae as well as for plants. So, adding CO2 to a plantless tank is feeding the algae. Your pictures show a very lightly planted tank, without nearly enough plants to get the tank started off right. The goal is to have at least half and preferably a lot more of the substrate covered with plants or a lot of floating plants. That way if an ammonia spike starts it is immediately absorbed by the plants. You can't pick up ammonia by testing when you have a planted tank. Both plants and algae eat ammonia quickly, so by the time you do a test it will be pretty well gone. An unplanted tank is another matter, when there is no algae in it. Then the ammonia will build up and poison the fish. But, once you have green water, the ammonia will be food for that algae and probably will not register on a test.

You need to restart the tank with adequate plantings, good CO2 and fertilizers, or switch to a fish only tank and maintain it accordingly.


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

i understand what your saying hoppy but my tank was not a new tank. i had a fish only tank for a long time and we decided to try a few plants... we bought a few ... and this was when it was a 55 gal tank.
they lived in that tank but didn't really grow... was using just the pet shop light in the hood that came with it. so i investigated and found out i needed more light. couldn't afford enough light for a 55 gal tank so i transfered it over to a 20 gal tank same gravel and filter and everything..... so i kept my biological filter.
plants didn't do so great with all this new light... and started to get the algae that you see in one of those pictures... the algae thats all around the edges of the plant.... so i researched more and found out i needed co2 ... or at least was told i did and that the co2 would control the algae that was on the edges of my plants.... and that laterite would help my plants also... so i hooked up some diy co2 and got some laterite gravel.... didn't seem to help any and then all my plants basically died. so i decided to remove them all and just get the tank back in shape and get some clean looking tank water....

hasn't been clean since.... and instead of the hair like stuff growing on the edges of the plants with clear water i now have a green haze that i can't get rid of.....

so..... i believe i need to tear down and restart ... with normal hood light .... i think 18 watt light  

just fish till my tank reastablish's and then load it up with plants and co2.....
is that about right then? or what? im confused lol


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

*My advice *would do a 4 day black out where there is no light permitted inside the tank Don't even peek or feed the fish. Keep the garage bag and blanket covering the tank for all 4 days. On the 5th day do a large water change, and you should be good to go without "restarting" the whole tank.

*During the 4 day blackout*, start collecting a bunch of plants such as Hygrophila polysperma, Hygrophila difformis, and other stem plants. Stick those in the tank ASAP, and pack them in good. Also, be sure your nutrient levels are good and you are dosing NPKs and micros from the beginning. Continue using your DIY CO2 or Seachem Excel. Lighting period with your 65 watt light should be about 8 hours to start. Think about switching your bulb with a Ge 9325k from lightbulbsdirect or anything in the range of 6700k-10000k for maximum usable light. Then stick your lights on a $4 timer, so that the tank has a perfect lighting schedule.

*My guess* is that you have too much and inconsistent light, too little plants, and lots of laterite soiling the water column with nutrients.

-John N.


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

so laterite could be part of the problem? and i had my light on a timer... 10 hours on and 14 off... started getting problem with algea and cut it down to 8 and didn't help... i have never fertilized my tank just used seachem flourish and that didn't seem to help the plants either


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

my wife is also suggesting that we use some peace lillys that we have growing outside in the tank... said a lady at the fish store said they would grow in the tank... any ideas on this also?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

There's a combination of things that could have started your green water. Poor lighting, too much light, not enough plants, little fertilzation of all necessary ferts, etc. It's really hard to narrow it down to one, since it seems like everything at one point was off balance.

Stable lighting for 8 hours with a new bulb as suggested above.. Also, I suggest you dose more than seachem Flourish for the next go around. Flourish doesn't dose all the required Nutrogen, Potassium, and Phosphates plants needs, but rather just trace elements. Consider dosing by this method to solve most of your nutrient needs. Once we get fertilzation of all necessary nutrients covered we can cross that off the list as potential catalysts, and then we can turn to focus on CO2, and plant mass issues.

It's really all about balance. Ferts, CO2, plant mass, lighting type and period need to be just right in order to keep algae away.et

I think your wife's suggestion on the addition of lilies is a great idea, and can help you solve some of your lack of plants issues. But definately get other types of plants too to help you along the way. Check out or request some from the For sale section. Also don't forget to update your profile (MYAPC) and include your location.

Also, this thread and this one  might be of interest. They describe other Green Water problem and their demise.

-John N.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I definately agree with Hoppy and John N. You probably have a combination of things at work here that started your GW issues.


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

ok can anyone tell me what ferts i need to buy? i think im gonna get them from greg watson... i have no idea how much last for how long and how much i need of what 

Marco


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

The following is from the Estimative Index Guide link I provided in that post to show you what you need to buy and how to dose it.

*Where to buy fertilizers?*
Greg Watson can provide you with the necessary chemicals for dry and liquid dosing of the above. For micro - trace elements, Plantex CSM+B, Seachem Flourish, and Tropica Master Grow (TMG) are equivalent to each other. Drsfostersmith and bigalsonline for the Seachem and TMG brands.

One Pound of each of Greg Watson's Chemicals will last at least 1 year:

Plantex CSM+B
Potassium Nitrate KN03
Monopotassium Phosphate KH2P04
Potassium Sulphate K2S04 _(optional)_​
-John N.


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## kimbm04r (Apr 22, 2005)

*My 29 Gallons of Pea Soup*

I have been following the posts of Green Water lately and was encouraged by the posts of using UV to eliminate Green Water. I hooked up my Turbo Twist (9W) the other day and I have to say I am just amazed at what it did in such a short time frame. Here are some pictures.

8/16/06 10/17 pm - Day One










8/17/06 9:40 pm - Day Two

(keep in mind this is minus the 8 hours that the UV turned off with lights before I noticed)










This Morning - 8/18/06 7:01 am - Day Three










You can see the pump on the right side that is running the UV and the return tubing on the left side.

I intend to do a water change tonight (really happy I finally bought that Python). My question is this (yes, I do have one). When I do the water change should I use some RO for replacement or stick with the tap water 100%? My reasoning is because when I checked my readings the Kh of the tank was 25 so I checked the Kh of my tap and it is 25 as well. With my Controller set to 6.8 that puts my CO2 around 119 ppm (fish show no signs of problems by the way) so should I just gradually raise my Controller to 7.3 (38 ppm) or 7.4 (30 ppm) to bring my CO2 into a more reasonable reading?

I have neglected my ferts (I know, I know :brick: ) as well and since I just got a new Hagen Master Test Kit I intend to start dosing religiously. I would like to try PPS but I can use EI also if you think that would be better. I have the ferts from Greg Watson and have SS and PF mixed at the moment. I also have CSM+B as well.

Readings:

Kh - 25
Ph - 6.8 (via Milwaukee Controller)
Gh - 1
Nitrate - 0
P04 - .25

My light is a 1x55 AH Supply Retrofit to my hood and it runs about 12 hours a day using a timer. I believe I need to reduce this to around 8 hours.

As far as plants go I think you can pretty well see from the pictures what I have in the tank except in the right side (not in picture) there are several Java Ferns (with several babies growing from the leaves) as well as several crypts. I am running an XP2 and have Eco-Complete substrate. The temp is keep around 78.

I have 3 Dwarf Gourami, 6 Brilliant Rasbora, 1 female Betta, 2 Otos and some snails.

If you need any other info please ask.

Any suggestions for dosing and such is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Sorry didn't mean to put this here. I thought I was putting it in a seperate thread. Didn't mean to hijack. Please feel free to move it if desired.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

No doubt UV sterilizers are a great way to kill GW but they are expensive not only upfront but you must replace the bulb regularly to maintain effectiveness. I think in a closed environment such as an aquarium where everything can easily be controlled such as lighting and nutrients its more important to try to find a balance and learn what it takes to accomplish this so it can be easily maintained. Achieving this balance promotes healthy plants and fish, making them able to fight off infection and parasites. In situations like outdoor ponds or NPT tanks that use real sunlight a UV would be a better option IMO to kill parasites and GW. Everyone is entitled thier own opinion though.


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

what does iron chelete do for my planted tank?


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## Marcom1234 (Aug 16, 2006)

No one has an answer for me at all??


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

can't give you definate answer because I have heard mixed opinions about it... seachem seems to think that ferrous iron is much more available to plants than chelated iron, while other sources say that chelated iron is a better long tern iron source (my interpretation). I would say that seachem is probably right and considering that a lot of our tanks are set up for rediculously fast growth rates and our dosing methods are designed around nutrients being redily avialable. I coudl be completely wrong though. Sounds like a little research might be in order.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

davis.1841 said:


> No doubt UV sterilizers are a great way to kill GW but they are expensive not only upfront but you must replace the bulb regularly to maintain effectiveness. I think in a closed environment such as an aquarium where everything can easily be controlled such as lighting and nutrients its more important to try to find a balance and learn what it takes to accomplish this so it can be easily maintained. Achieving this balance promotes healthy plants and fish, making them able to fight off infection and parasites. In situations like outdoor ponds or NPT tanks that use real sunlight a UV would be a better option IMO to kill parasites and GW. Everyone is entitled thier own opinion though.


Well I'll give you my opinion. A UV is a win, win. The upfront cost is around $70 for most planted tanks on this forum (up to 125 USG). The bulb needs to be replaced usually once a year. If you have a canister filter you could put it inline between the return and the spraybar and you will never see it and your water will remain crystal clear and if your like me and like to have your hands in the tank to scape you don't have to worry about having a problem if things get stirred up.

Now to the fish benefit. Assuming the flow is correct the UV will destroy pathogens that can affect sensitive fish, especially during the acclimation process when fishes immune systems are compromised and they are fair game for disease. How many times have you had cardinal tetras and other sensitive fish succumb during the first few days of acclimation. I guess it's a stretch to say the UV makes a quarantine obsolete, but I think it comes close. I run one 24/7 and my fish are never sick and my plants are lush and colorful. I have about 40 fish in my 72g and all have gone straight in from the LFS. Because tanks are closed systems it's very difficult to match mother nature's balance. You want to come as close as possible, but let's face it, most of us put more fish, food, etc. into the footprint of our tanks than would exist in nature's same footprint.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

we have a lot more plants in that same foot print too and a man-made filtration device, co2 at concentrations probably 10 or so times that found in nature. Our plants have everything they need to handle the fish load, and if they can't do it and you need to by a sterilizer that may effect the fertilizers in the water then maybe you need to consider cutting the population down and putting them in another tank or taking them to the LFS. Sterilizers are good, in some cases but why constantly fight nature with your wallet when you can take a couple days and figure out a true balance that eliminates the problem at the source. 

As far as using the the UV as a sterilizer, for pathogens, bacteria, ect... you need a much lower flow rate (something to the order of 1/3) or a much more expensive sterlizer that is probably double the watage increasing the cost of maintenance(replacement bulb) and the sterilizers ability to foul fertilzers. If your using the flowrate for killing algae and not for true sterilizer effectiveness your really not killing pathogens with the UV.

Why waste time and money trying to fight nature when if we work with it properly it will help us in many ways, for free. 



I know I've seen many posts from you 'House' about how much you love your UV, which is fine it may be the best option for you. It may work wonders for you. For me I'd rather save the $70+ and the yearly replacement of a $30-40 uv bulb, that money can be spent much better elsewhere IMO. With that money saved I could almost buy a pressurized CO2 system.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

davis.1841 said:


> we have a lot more plants in that same foot print too and a man-made filtration device, co2 at concentrations probably 10 or so times that found in nature. Our plants have everything they need to handle the fish load, and if they can't do it and you need to by a sterilizer that may effect the fertilizers in the water then maybe you need to consider cutting the population down and putting them in another tank or taking them to the LFS. Sterilizers are good, in some cases but why constantly fight nature with your wallet when you can take a couple days and figure out a true balance that eliminates the problem at the source.
> 
> As far as using the the UV as a sterilizer, for pathogens, bacteria, ect... you need a much lower flow rate (something to the order of 1/3) or a much more expensive sterlizer that is probably double the watage increasing the cost of maintenance(replacement bulb) and the sterilizers ability to foul fertilzers. If your using the flowrate for killing algae and not for true sterilizer effectiveness your really not killing pathogens with the UV.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinon, but I don't understand what your problem is. The thread starter is sharing his experience with a GW problem so I am sharing my experience with a UV to correct the problem. It works great, I've used one first hand for 10 months with great benefits. As far as expense, did you calcuate into your little equation medication that you don't have to buy and fish that your not replacing because the UV will keep them healthier not to mention plants that might get destroyed during a blackout.

Your statement about having more plants in the same foot print makes an assumption that everyone's tanks are full of plants, that's not always the case. How 'bout the APC members who just have a carpet down or mostly hardscape and a few plants and don't have the "suck up" to deal with excess water/ferts but are constantly battling GW. If your so into nature, why are you wasting money on a "man-made" filter why not have nature clean your tank as others do and put it next to the window so your tank gets "natural" light.

Using words like probably (foul ferts) and maybe really don't hold any water when many APC members use UVs 24/7 with great results including one Greg Watson.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

The only reason I used phrases such as "foul ferts" or "probably" is because I have read this(numerous times) and didn't feel like going back and fourth finding resources or exact instances to back this up, but if it would make you feel better I could do that for you.

Why did you ask me to figure in the money spent on medications, I haven't had a single fish illness without a sterilizer and I don't quarantine my fish either? I look the fish over very carefully before I buy them but I haven't run into any problems. Fish disease normally is triggered by stress depleting their immune defense... Why cover up your problems with a sterilizer that will kill of the warning signs of a problem? GW is usually triggered by a spike of ammonia or some other upset to the balance of the system; I'd like to know about these things, for the health of my fish. Just because the water isn't green doesn't mean the problem isn't there and your fish aren't feeling the effects of it. *Plus if you're not giving the UV a low enough flow rate then its not killing parasites anyway. * So spending the added $50-150 in addition to the $70 you say a UV sterilizer costs just to have one that fights parasites, to *prevent* the cost of medication that I'm not already buying doesn't really make sense to me. Even if something terrible happened and every fish in my tank comes down with a terrible Ich infection and I don't catch it soon enough to treat it with a $5-10 med, it wouldn't even cost $40 to replace all of my fish if every single one of them died (HIGHLY unlikely).

I just don't understand spending that kind of money for something that can be accomplished for free especially when it's better to do it for free. Just sounds like a lack of patients to me.

As far as being so into nature, that's not what I'm trying to say at all, we are simulating nature, not becoming a piece of it.... all I'm saying is why not use nature to help you if you can instead of fighting it with your wallet.

I have a filter because I want to have more fish, than would normally be there in nature, the filter naturally increases the capability of the tank to handle a larger bioload. The lighting on my tank is carefully controlled to match the capability of the tank to photosynthesize it with the nutrients in the water and dissolve carbon dioxide available, similar to tree's hanging over pond shading it. I add CO2 to increase the plants ability to utilize nutrients during photosynthesis. I stock my tank to match its ability to support it and keep it healthy. I fertilize as necessary to support the growth of the plants. I maintain balance in my tank and that's the way I know keeps everything healthy and looking its best. I don't use sunlight because I can't control it easily and that makes the mini ecosystem unbalanced.

---This is all my personal opinion, how I feel aquaria should be approached to yield the healthiest plants and fish. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and approach to keeping fish and plants. I'm not trying to discount the benefits of UV sterilization I definitely agree its a great tool, but I just feel it's not well suited to Planted Aquaria. I think its best suited for fish only tanks, marine set ups and small outdoor ponds.

Balance is not that difficult to achieve in a planted tank.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I forgot you mentioned planted tanks without a large plant mass. That doesn't mean that you need UV either. Balance is key in every planted tank, there are many iwagumi style tanks with just a carpet of HC and rocks that have crystal clear water without UV. These people found the balance and do not have high bioloads. They probably use a filter and artificial lighting, which is easily controlled. These tanks are the same as heavily planted tanks you just can't get carried away with a high bioload. Like i said before UV sterilizers mask the problems that cause GW, NH4 is still there.

its also possible to have an unplanted tank, without GW, without UV. Actually its pretty easy to do because these tanks usually dont have the intense lighting of a planted tank and people are more likely to spend the money for a better filter because they aren't relying on plants to remove Ammonia, there for balance is achieved. 

Balance is different for every single case but if you can achieve it GW will never stand a chance.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Davis,
If your going to "talk the talk, than you have to walk the walk".
Your response is so riddled with contractions that it makes it difficult for me to even respond.

You say you balance your tank yet in the next sentence you say you have a filter so you could keep more fish than what would occur naturally.

_Fish disease normally is triggered by stress depleting their immune defense_
Yes I agree with that, but the sterlizer isn't covering anything up it's smoothing the transition of the fish when their immune systems are most vulnerable to infection. When I mentioned the cost of meds, I'm not referring to your tank, but anyone's tank. UV will save fish I don't think that's debatable. I'm not sure why you feel a planted tank is the only closed system that doesn't need a UV. Most marine tanks these days have Live Rock as the primarily filtration in the same way a planted tank has plants. The biological filtration in live rock keeps the tank in balance, while the mechanical filtration simply removes solid waste. Even with this you will almost never see a marine setup without a UV. Why?, becuase they are primarily keeping the water as pristine as possible for the fish. Have you ever had a UV? Probably not since you like to take the natural approach. 
If I'm speaking from experience having used one for quite some time and your speaking from inexperience which would be more credible. My firsthand experience or your lack of experience. I don't think you understand that this is an art form and many times one's expression isn't balanced.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

We aren't going to settle the debate about the need for UV filters here. Some people use them and swear by them. Others don't use them and swear by their method. Anyone who thinks they have a need for one should probably try it, if they feel they can afford it. Then, if it works - great! If not, try something else. There are many ways to have a healthy planted tank.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

so your telling me that the only way that one can take a natural approach to an aquarium is to have no filter and set the thing in direct sunlight. really does this make any sense. that would be very difficult to keep algae free. 

all I'm saying is that its important to find a natural balance in our tanks to combat algae. usuing a tool to kill it doesn't fix the cause. The cause is toxic ammonia, which still remains after the algae is out of sight. 

as far as disease goes, your telling me that if I use a $70 8watt sterilizer i wont have any parasites in my tank ever and I will never have an ill fish all because of my sterilizer. Many fish that are sick in our tanks were sick when they were introduced therefor the parasite is allready there... whats the UV going to do then????? If your telling me that leaving an elevated ammonia problem is ok because you can't see the gw it creates better for the fish, then i'm at a loss. 

your really going to argue with me that its better to have a UV sterilizer for the health of your plants and fish than it is to keep a healthy balanced aquarium??? I dont really understand what your argueing here. Your trying to punch holes in my credibility by saying that I'm contradicting myself. where is the contradiction in ammonia or other chemicals stress out fish. Stressed fish are much more likely to be sick because there imune system weakens under stress. Your telling me that its a problem to take a natural approach to keeping fish and plants. All I'm saying is this is my opinion and I feel its the best thing considering the shear cost of it and its negative effects on the chemical make up of the fertilizers making them less available to the plants. If you can get clear water, by balancing the aquarium naturally (not making an exact replica of nature that is impossible) but learning to use the natural processes that take place anyway to stave the algae at its source why not do it for free. 

Marine tanks are very different. I used to own one and I think live rock as a filter can work, but then again balance comes into play. People who do this do not have as big fish loads as those who use live rock and filtration. They use tons of current to blow water across the rock, and really what happens is the same thing that takes place in an external filter. UV sterilizers are great in marine setups because marine fish are much more prone to disease and infection than freshwater fish. 

Speaking of filters whats wrong with filtration, removing debris and giving naturally occuring nitrifying bacteria a safe place to do its job.

I'm not opposed to UV all together just for planted tanks. I just think there are better options available for planted aquaria. 

the cost of meds... so for any tank you think without a UV sterilizer the average planted aquarist will spend upwards of $70-200(for one capable of killing more than GW) plus an additional $30-40 (for the cost of replacement bulbs) a year on medications. That makes it cost effective means of disease prevention in planted tanks? If your that concerned about it and willing to spend that kind of money for it really a quarentien tank is perfect for you because then the new fish is isolated from the main tank and it can become healthy there without infecting other fish. 


Pros and Cons of UV in each setting

FW fish only - no GW and if the uv is strong enough parasites will be killed. No fertilizers used so there is nothing for UV to hurt. 

FW planted - almost pointless unless you invest in a strong enough one for killing parasites. It will make ferts such as Iron and Trace elements less available to plants. Find a balance and GW will die on its own. 

MARINE Fish only or Reefs - Best use of UV sterilization as long as its strong enough for the application and the flow rate is correct. Kills parasites that the fragile/expensive marine fish and inverts can't handle. Once again no fertilizers to harm unless calcium or iodine have problems with UV exposure. 

Ponds - Another great use of UV sterilization, this is an open evironment, also with unrestricted sunlight and bioload (fish waste and rotting leaves and debris) UV can keep a pond clear and once again if strong enough will kill parasites. Most people dont really serriously fertilize ponds so uv shouldn't do to much damage there. Although more difficult balance can be achieved in ponds and GW can be eliminated in ponds. (barley bales, plant mass, shade trees, strong filtration)

go ahead start listing my contradictions and how I'm wrong about UV.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

That's an interesting conversation you got going with yourself Davis. This all started because you "attacked" my UV input that was directly to the thread starter and not you. You obviously have an axe to ground about people using UV. As Hoppycalif said, there is more than one way to have a successful tank, but you seem to think it's you way only, and this is based on your "vast experience".


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I'm not trying to fight or argue with you House, I've said repeatedly that its only my opinion and you keep knocking it so I have responded to the claimes that you have made and reiterated my point. I have nothing else to say I've repeated myself many times, I think i've made my point and this really went way to far.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

You guys both have very valid opinions, and have created a great discussion on the pros and cons of UV sterilizers, and the methods of approaching Green Water problems. I think there's been enough said between you guys on this matter. Now let's all take a step back, and let's tackle another issue...such as. 

In all seriousness though, this was a great discussion.

-John N.


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