# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Ms Walstad metod



## Mario Velez (Feb 20, 2004)

I’m setting up a new aquarium strictly following Ms. Walstad method. I prefer a slow growing planted tank since I keep Discus and seems to be that they prefer not to be disturb with frequent plant pruning and cleaning. I have a 90 Glls. drilled tank equipped with a Wet and Dry filter and a UV light running 24/7 two 55 Watt PL lamps running 12/12, substrate is a 2-inch deep layer of garden soil and 1.5- inch of non-alkaline gravel filled with tap water. 
I’m having a problem with phosphate levels since the very beginning back in mid Dec. 2003 test reading give me levels of phosphate of 5.00 and higher, Since then, I completely change the aquarium water 3 times. Two week ago I decided to change the approach introducing plants, about 20 small plants and 20 medium and large plants (mainly swords) and a daily water change of 4 Glls of RO filtered water. Levels of phosphate and PH right now are in the neighborhood of 0.25 and 5.5 respectively. So far no fish have been introduced to the tank. 

My questions are:

Can I add water conditioner such as Bacillus Subtillis bacteria?
Should I introduce fish to seed the aquarium at this point?
Should I introduce more plants?
What level of phosphate is safe for Discuss and Cardinals tetras? 
I’m considering introduce fast growing floating plants such as water sprite to consume the excess dissolved phosphate in the water. What do you thinks about it? 

Any other comment or suggestion will be greatly appreciated

Best Regards
Mario Velez


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## Mario Velez (Feb 20, 2004)

I’m setting up a new aquarium strictly following Ms. Walstad method. I prefer a slow growing planted tank since I keep Discus and seems to be that they prefer not to be disturb with frequent plant pruning and cleaning. I have a 90 Glls. drilled tank equipped with a Wet and Dry filter and a UV light running 24/7 two 55 Watt PL lamps running 12/12, substrate is a 2-inch deep layer of garden soil and 1.5- inch of non-alkaline gravel filled with tap water. 
I’m having a problem with phosphate levels since the very beginning back in mid Dec. 2003 test reading give me levels of phosphate of 5.00 and higher, Since then, I completely change the aquarium water 3 times. Two week ago I decided to change the approach introducing plants, about 20 small plants and 20 medium and large plants (mainly swords) and a daily water change of 4 Glls of RO filtered water. Levels of phosphate and PH right now are in the neighborhood of 0.25 and 5.5 respectively. So far no fish have been introduced to the tank. 

My questions are:

Can I add water conditioner such as Bacillus Subtillis bacteria?
Should I introduce fish to seed the aquarium at this point?
Should I introduce more plants?
What level of phosphate is safe for Discuss and Cardinals tetras? 
I’m considering introduce fast growing floating plants such as water sprite to consume the excess dissolved phosphate in the water. What do you thinks about it? 

Any other comment or suggestion will be greatly appreciated

Best Regards
Mario Velez


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## skylsdale (Jun 2, 2004)

What is your water source?


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## Mario Velez (Feb 20, 2004)

Hi,

My water source is tap water, for the daily change is Reverse Osmosis water. 

Note: I have check phosphate levels of my tap water and is below 0.25 RO is 0


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by Mario Velez:
> I'm setting up a new aquarium strictly following Ms. Walstad method
> 
> Please! This not my method! For example, I would NEVER recommend a wet-dry filter for a natural planted aquarium (See pages 111-112 in my book). A wet-dry filter (due to the greatly enhanced air-water mixing) will remove most of the CO2 from the water and you will get very poor plant growth.
> ...


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## james_uk (Mar 20, 2003)

What is a wet dry filter?

I use an internal power filter but I have removed the venturi and placed the outlet low to prevent too much surface agitation.


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## plantbrains (Mar 11, 2003)

What? It's not __YOUR__ method
I get that, but on the other side of the CO2 issue.

I'd never suggest a wet/dry for a planted non CO2 tank either. I like the Hagen HOB filters or a canister filter. W/D's are useful for CO2 enriched tanks with high fish waste/bioloads, very large tanks etc. 

A friend has bred Discus in a non CO2 plnated tank, and has not done a single water change in 2 years. He uses a plant tank+ plant filter.

Pruning, water changes, lots of plants are fine for Discus, this is not going harm these fish at all. 

But generally I do not do many water changes, if any on my non CO2 tanks. 

One of the main goals folks often associated with the non CO2 method is a balance between the fish waste/food and the plant growth.

Folks that are more focused on the needs of the Discus based off of many web sites, tend not to consider this balance adequately and this results in algae and poor plant growth. 

They often add way too many fish for the plant biomass or over feed thinking that their fish might stunt if they don't feed them as many worms as they can cram down them.

If competitive show fish and breeding are your primary goal, then stick with bare bottom tanks and 1-2 day large water changes.
A 7" fish vs 8" is not my personal goal and I've kept Discus for a few years in a planted tanks.

If a nice tank and healthy fish with moderate breeding etc is your goal, then the planted tank is a good example.

If you cannot help your self and have to over feed, then fewer fish are required. Likewise adding CO2 will increase nutrient uptake (fish waste uptake). Non CO2 tanks will not remove as much since there's less production in terms of the plant biomass.

You can do this, but you need a large tank with a lot of plants and fewer fish than you would have in a bare bottom tank or a CO2 enriched tank. 

Sure, you can get away some so-so tanks, have some algae on things etc, but a nice tank, say a 90 gal, might only support 3-4 fish vs a CO2 tank might be able to handle 5-7. Again, it depends on how much you feed them. I'd not go over 4 fish, they might be small now, but when they are full grown, they will eat more and take up more room. Also consider that you will want to add some algae eaters.

Your substrate seems a bit rich, I'd add more sand, as little less soil but leave it for now.

If your tap has only 0.25ppm of PO4, do a few large water changes, the only when doing this: temp should be the same and dechlorinator added.

Then stop doing so many water changes and leave the tank alone. Keep an eye on NO3 and PO4. If it keeps rising, you can feed less, or if that's not an option, condsider adding a plant filter in addition to the plants in the tank.

It's basically a wet/dry with plants added in the wet/dry section. Emergent plants are very good at nutrient removal and many do not require much light.

This will increase the nutrient removal and turn it into plant biomass.

But generally having the plants in the tank removing the nutrients and fish feeding and thus waste feeding the plants, a nice balance can be achieved that folks can live with fairly easily.

It's not that Discus are "hard" to keep it's mainly that folks coddle them when approaching the planted tank rather than coddling the plants which in turn make for a healthy environment for the fish. 

This same plant filter idea is what makes refugiums popular with Saltwater reefs. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by james_uk:
> What is a wet dry filter?
> 
> In a wet-dry filter the filter media is kept wet but exposed to air. Because nitrifying bacteria are aerobic, they work much better with the extra oxygen. However, this enhanced gas exchange causes CO2 to escape. Trickle filters are good for severely crowded tanks without plants. Think aquaculture.
> ...


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## Mario Velez (Feb 20, 2004)

Dear Ms D. Walstad and Mr. T. Barr

Thanks for your input about my question posted last Feb 20th. Following your book guidelines and your comments, this past weekend I have replaced the W&D filter for a canister filter, despite the fact of the W&D filter issue plants successfully get adapted to the new aquarium set up and I notice a moderate plant growth. With the exception of the canister filter the conditions of the aquarium remain the same temperature is in the range of 82/84 F, PH is about 5.5, phosphate label is about 0.25 tank is equipped with a UV light running 24/7 two 55 Watt PL lamps running 12/12, substrate is a about 2-inch deep layer of garden soil and 1.5- inch of non-alkaline gravel filled with tap water.

Since to be that phosphate level are not an issue any more. However, I would like to comment that I notice a constant bubbling coming out of the soil since mid Dec 2003 when I fist re- set the 90 Glls. tank. 
A month ago I introduce 20 small plants and 20 medium and large plants (mainly swords) Now Im only replacing the evaporated water on a weekly bases of about 4 Glls of RO filtered water. So far no fish have been introduced to the tank.

As Tom mentioned in his interesting post, a nice tank and healthy happy fish with lots of plant its my goal. I get interested in a planted tank for the well been of my fish, However, keeping the plants in good shape it is what I have found more challenging.

Your comments, feed back are always appreciated.

Best Regards
Mario A. Velez



> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> 
> ...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by Mario Velez:
> Dear Ms D. Walstad and Mr. T. Barr
> 
> However, I would like to comment that I notice a constant bubbling coming out of the soil since mid Dec 2003 when I fist re- set the 90 Glls. tank.
> ...


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## Mario Velez (Feb 20, 2004)

Dear Ms Walstad,

Following your book guidelines and your good advice in this forum I’m experiencing acceptable plant grow in my 90 Glls tank. Since I’m not vacuum the gravel and making any water change my concern now is to ad tap water to refill the natural evaporation. (About 4 Glls. A week) So far I have just replaced it with RO water (not following your advise) since the tap water in my community is treated with monochloramine which produce a heavy chlorine odor among some others occasional unpleasant smells that the Tampa Water department so far it’s not capable to determine. Not to mention the intentions of the current administration of lowering the standards for lead, mercury, and some other contaminants in the water and air, But I guess Tampa Bay water quality it is not much a different from the rest of the tap water in the U.S. 

On the other hand, I know that there is some unanswered questions in reference of keeping soft water fish following your method for planted aquarium tank. I guess I’m willing to risk and try to find the balance.

I currently keep in the planted aquarium tanks breaded Discuss, Cardinals tetras, Otocinclus, and few corydoras that I guess are acclimatize to to soft water and RO water change/refill.

Te above mentioned tanks was set up with tap water 4 month ago running only with plants for 3 moths. I introduce fish and all of them get well adapted to their new environment and I have not experienced fish lost so far. However, I guess that they might not been affected by tap water change since the tank was set up and running for quite sometime. 

What will be your opinion in replacing the evaporated water with RO complemented with saltwater mix for marine aquariums?

Again your comments and valuable advise will be very much appreciated

Best Regards
Mario Velez


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't think I would use marine salts, because they have a lot of sodium chloride, which won't be good for fish or plants. 

I don't know what's in Kent's "R.O. Right" but if it's mostly the hardwater nutrients (calcium, magnesium, potassium), it would be better than marine salts.

You could try your tapwater with a good water conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramine and neutralize the metals. If tapwater is good enough for humans to drink, it is probably good enough for your fish. The exception is copper and zinc, but you can call the Tampa Water Dept and ask them what those levels are. Zinc should be below 0.03 ppm and copper below 0.01 ppm. Of course, this may change if we get "four more years"...

That said, the input of others on this forum may be useful. Also, see the "Water Hardness and Softwater Fish" March 18 folder in this forum. You may want to keep using R.O. water to top off your tanks. I'm just not sure. But whatever you do, let us know the results!


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