# 100% Flourite Substrate and Ferts?



## sean tebor (May 25, 2007)

Hello - (HELP!)

I have a 72g bowfront in its fourth month of life. It has been through a few stages, good and bad, and I need some help. Some of you may have seen my other post in the general discussion forum, but maybe I can get more help here.

The tank has a substrate of 100% Flourite, and despite how inert it is supposed to be, I am wondering if it is still leaking some traces and such into the water column. I am using pressurized CO2, with lots of light (4x54w Giesemann Midday bulbs - tank is tall though, and photoperiod is a staggered 12 hours, with half the light coming on an hour before all four, and again just half the light for the last two hours of a 12 hour period). I have a high fish load (I think), with nearly 40 black neon tetras, about 8 SAEs, 12 Otocinclus, and 13 CPDs.

My ferts systems have been experimental. The plants grew very well right from the start without ferts, but after reading so much about it I tried some of the Kent products, and they were working pretty well, until I began getting hair algae. Water changes did not affect the tank at all. I feed conservatively. Later I moved to ADA fertz, and after about a week or so, going by the instructions (Green Brighty Step 2, Brighty K, and Green Brighty Special Lights), the plants stunted, especially the r.rotundifolia. The three echinodorus plants showed twisted, distorted new leaves, often with the flesh between the veins missing. The leaves are skeletal.

I switched to Pfertz, after testing and finding that the ADA fertz had the nitrates around 5ppm, but phosphate was nearly 2ppm, which according to what I had been reading is out of proportion. Who knows how much of the trace mix was in there. Pfertz started out ok - the plants did better, but not much. The GH, which had been steady at 10dH for a long time, crashed in a week. I had been dosing more K in the end after reading here about good results with higher K and lower N and P.

I did a 90% water change the other day to start all over again. I use a tap/RO water mix, and had been adding plain RO for evaporation, since there was enough tap water to hold KH and GH around 5 and 10 respectively. After seeing the GH at ZERO I ordered Seachem's equilibrium and am reconstituting the RO water. Just two days after the 90% water change, however, the GH has fallen from 7.5dH to 5dH. KH stays stable, and slightly climbs over time. The tank is between moderate and heavy in its plant mass. Everything is growing well after the water change, except the three echinodorus (rubin, oriental, and uruguayensis), which are slowed down, with twisted and skeletal new leaves.

Since the water change I have used no ferts, until this morning when I added Flourish, per the directions on the bottle. And after just one day I have hair algae and a nice green dust on the glass. Since Flourish contains a little bit of everything, I do not know if the algae is from macros or micros.

So after all this rambling, I am wondering just how much in the way of macros the fish are adding, and how much micros the Flourite is adding from the substrate. Anytime I add ferts, even conservatively, I get algae and the plants don't seem to take it in. Any advice? Thanks very much for reading all this mess.

Because some of you are going to ask, here are the tank specs:

PH 6.8
KH 6
GH 5
Nitrates near zero on my API kit
Phosphates near zero on my API kit
K who knows? No kit
Fe no kit (yet)
Calcium ???
Magnesium ???
Temp between 25c and 27c daily swing


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You are starving the plants. They need nitrates, phosphates, potassium, trace elements and carbon in order to grow. Fish waste and excess fish food can supply some of that, but with good lighting it wont supply nearly enough to keep the plants healthy. And, unless the plants are healthy and growing well you are likely to start growing algae instead.

I suggest picking a fertilizing routine and sticking to it. The flourite substrate isn't part of the fertilizing routine - it is inert.


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## sean tebor (May 25, 2007)

*Re: 100% Flourite Substrate and Ferts? (Pics)*

But my plants are growing very well without additional fertz, except for the three echinodorus plants, which are actually looking a bit better today. Remember, I have plenty of CO2. I did not fertilize with Flourish this morning. I feed the fish every other day, conservative to moderate amounts - clean food. I was just reading again in Diana Walstad's book about how much the fish load and food contribute to the fertilization loop. She actually suggests fertz only if the plants show signs of deficiency. My echinodorus plants may have gotten ill due to the crashed GH, which I imagine was due to zero calcium/magnesium. They seem to be recovering slowly, while the rest look very good.

Even Christel Kasselmann suggests being very conservative with fertilizers, and despite my high light, I am trying to get a grip on the whole picture, fishload et al.

Here are some pics (click any to enlarge):

The tank. Sorry for the reflections - it's daytime here in Santa Fe, NM.


The plants are basically fine. You can see the healthy lotus, and R.Macrandra 'Green', HC, and L.Indica.


The E.Oriental - you can see the new leaves are twisted, but seem to be recovering.


Same thing with the E.Rubin, but here you can see the space between the veins is pale. The B.Caroliniana and L.Palustris are fine.


The E.Uruguayensis, which is the worst, but also recovering a bit. You can see the new leaves are a mess, and skeletal.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

First of all, make sure your test kits are reliable; it's always a good idea to calibrate them to ensure that the numbers you're using to diagnose an issue are reliable. Otherwise you're going around in circles.

A 2.5 degree drop in GH in two days seems like a lot to me. And a drop from a GH of 10 to 0 (you don't say over how much time) is pretty incredible as well. Try another GH test kit just to double check.

Also remember re GH: just because you have a GH of lets say 5+ does not mean that you have enough calcium AND magnesium. Some source waters' GH can be made up of mainly Ca and very little Mg. I have seen tap water with a GH of 15 and only 5mg/l of magnesium, so Mg needed to be added...

And the way plants use nutrients IMO is as follows: light>carbon>macros>micros. And I've found that the order or priority of use has an influence. High light makes the plants need carbon to build plant mass as they photosynthesize and grow. If they don't find carbon they won't be building plant mass and therefore won't be using much macros. Give them carbon and then they will need the macros to grow well. etc...

Your tank is well lit and I assume that the plants are getting adequate carbon. If your test kit results are reliable, the plants are now hungry for macros as you are showing phosphates and nitrates of zero. Phosphorous and nitrogen are essential for plants (K as well) which is why all non-aquatic plant fertilisers contain NPK.

You are then adding Flourish (micros) to a tank with no macros. The plants don't need that much micros because they have no macros (remember light>carbon>macros>micros). So guess who benefits from the unused micros?

Hope this helps. Still haven't had enough coffee this morning so this looks like a bit of a ramble! 

P.S. Also keep in mind that Diana's comments are related to a completely different type of system and not a high light, CO2 injected setup.


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## sean tebor (May 25, 2007)

Thank you Laith, your reply is helpful. I had of course seen in many other threads the importance of the chain, light>carbon>macros>micros, and finally it takes on its full importance. I think also that I have not previously found that magical balance between all these components, with all of them present in the right quantities. Every system really is unique.

For example, I am concerned about iron sources going into the tank, and the effect this has on the amount of micros I would dose. There is iron in the substrate (all Flourite), iron in the fish food, iron in the Equilibrium I use to buffer GH, and iron in the micros. How does that all add up? Is testing iron enough, and what happens to the cumulative quantities of other micros in order to regulate iron?

I have been going back and forth with the support crew at Pfertz in the last 24 hours, since I am using their fertilizers. I had tried ADA and things were way out of wack when dosing by their directions. The folks at Pfertz have been really great. I sent them pics of the tank and we are fine tuning a fertilization routine specifically for my system. We'll see how it turns out.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I'd ignore iron coming from any source other than your micro ferts; the quantities aren't going to be substantial enough (and probably in the wrong "state" anyway) to have any impact. In any case, as you mention regarding balance, once your fert regime is good having more iron shouldn't cause problems.

Good luck with the Pfertz plan. Remember to stick with the plan for a while... patience is key. And you may see things getting worse before they get better!


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