# [Wet Thumb Forum]-water hardness?



## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

my tap watter has a kh20 gh10-20 and a ph7.0 now in all my tanks that i have put a specific gravel in i have a kh50 or so and a ph7.4-7.6 that is all with out co2 now i am trying to keep rams and other amazon fish so i would really like if i coudl lower my ph,gh,and kh. in my plant tank the ph is no problem becaus eof the co2 but the gh and kh are still a bit high. but in my breeding/quorinten tank i need to lower it all. what can i use that will lower my stuff to a kh20 gh20 again.


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

my tap watter has a kh20 gh10-20 and a ph7.0 now in all my tanks that i have put a specific gravel in i have a kh50 or so and a ph7.4-7.6 that is all with out co2 now i am trying to keep rams and other amazon fish so i would really like if i coudl lower my ph,gh,and kh. in my plant tank the ph is no problem becaus eof the co2 but the gh and kh are still a bit high. but in my breeding/quorinten tank i need to lower it all. what can i use that will lower my stuff to a kh20 gh20 again.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

It has to be something in the tank raising the hardness. Take a close look at your gravel. Are there white bits in it? If so get some of them and put them in a cup and pour vinegar over them. If they bubble they are limestone or shell. This is what is raising the hardness. If you have rocks in the tank do the same thing.

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## wetmanNY (Feb 1, 2003)

What is the "specific gravel" you mentioned in all those tanks where the hardness is rising? Can you tell us? Was it bagged when you bought it? Was it a "brand name" gravel perhaps?


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

the gravel was baged in a half redis orange half brown thick paper type 100lb bag it just said sand on it but it is a fine 2-4mm gravel that is all i know but i will try the vineger test.


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

i tested the gravel and it seems fine i grabed 2 cups of gravel and placedt it in a big boul with 3 cups viniger no bubles and i did not see any whit chips there were a few white ricks but they were definetly rocks only though.could it be that i bufferd the watter to much 1.5 months ago and the water dose not want to come down now? (but that dose not seem right) I will try a 75% water change on my planted guppie tank with soft water and see what happens not woried about loosing them.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

when you say kh20 gh 10-20 do you mean 20 ppm or 20 degrees?


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## wetmanNY (Feb 1, 2003)

Well, good. It's not the gravel-- which sounds like a coarse-grained construction sand, yes? A fine substrate.

You mention a buffer you added some time ago. And your water certainly is "buffered." Could the buffer still be active? Do you think water changes over the months have eliminated it?


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

ya it is a gravle liek you said i like it very much the root take to it exelent. the bufefr i used was PH stable but i have not uses that in a month when i last used it i got my kh up to 100ppm but i would have thought that with weekly 25% water changes and with the last week 10-20%water changes every 2 days that it woudl be out by now. can potasium sulfate raise kh? and for slate and stuff i have it in one of the 3 tanks only with this problem so that is not it eather the only comeon thing is the gravel and that is not it. so really it must be that ph stable, i owudl think then? 

ok i did a 5.5g water change on a tnak with 9g of water 2hrs ago now and there is a kh30ppm and ph6.4 with co2 now i guse i will just have to what and see what that water dose now.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Test the gravel again. Only this time test it with muriatic acid. Just be careful with the acid. You can get it at pool stores, Home Depot, and many other places. Vinegar many times isn't strong enough to cause a quick reaction.

I mention this because many times in coastal area 90% or more of the sand and gravel is contaminated with shell fragments.

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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

ok i Will pick up some of that acid and try that. but in the mean time if there is some sea shell in the gravel Will the kh and ph continually go up or will it level out some where. however even this is too hight for me i have extremely soft water but i would like to keep and maybe try breeding rams and in the future maybe discus so my water is perfect for that if i figure out why my tank is harder then the tap.


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

ok i tested it with that acid and id bubbled and fized like crazy and then the pecies that were fizing disolved would those have been sea shell? if so is there anything i can do to keep the kh down and will that effect the gh and kh or just the kh? 

i an trying to set it up as a comunity tank for rams and other S.A. fish so low kh/gh/ph which is what my tap water is woudl be very nice. but i guse this stuff woudl not be all that bad in my live bearer tank though, or woudl it?


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Those were either shell fragments or limestone, or marble. No matter what they were the source of your problem.

As long as you keep your water acidic and those bits and pieces are still in there the pH and kH will continue to rise till they get quite high. It will also raise your pH. I would guess it will rise till it gets your pH above seven and overloads the carbonic acid created by injection CO2.

This gravel should do fine in a live-bearer tank as they prefer harder water anyway. It looks like you are going to have to use Flourite or something else in the other tank. If you really look around you should be able to find some gravel that doesn't have the carbonate source in it. You know how to test it now.

As a side note I have been telling people for a long time that the vinegar test is not reliable at all. It will works sometimes, but the muriatic acid works every-time!

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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> As a side note I have been telling people for a long time that the vinegar test is not reliable at all. It will works sometimes, but the muriatic acid works every-time!


This is right, Rex. Vinegar works if the calcium carbonate is very porous and fine-grained, like chalk. With more massive or coarse-grained material (like marble chips, or even most shells) it just doesn't react fast enough to cause a fizz. Stronger acids are needed.

Roger Miller


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Roger,

I can't tell you how many times people have told me I'm nuts over this issue. They think that vinegar will work fine. But it doesn't. They think the if the vinegar doesn't cause a reaction that you won't get one in your tank. But just because you don't get a visible reaction doesn't mean there is not one going on.

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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Hey, your not nuts! The weakest acid that experience tells me will give a dependable response is 10% HCl. That will get an observable reaction from most any form of calcite.

Dolomite is less prone to fizzing then calcite. It has the same effect in the tank as does calcite, but it works more slowly. In order to find dolomite you actually need to get a few grains under a magnifying glass or (better) a binocular scope, scratch a fresh surface on a grain with a needle and then apply the acid. Otherwise you may not see a good reaction, even with fairly strong acid.

Fortunately dolomite isn't as common as calcite.


Roger Miller


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

thnakx for all the help to figure out the problem. now for the part of deciding what to do. do i leave it as is and have to do way more water changes then i alredy do. which is a real pain since i live on a well and have to transport water from work since they are on the city water. or change my gravel. I am asking the in the diy forum for ideas on gravel.


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## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

you could take the gravel out, put it in a bucket, and use a lot of muriatic, till the gravel stops bubbling, then rinse. ie, till the acid eats up all of the carbonates. but, this may take a lot of acid depending on how much calcium etc is in the sand.

i wouldn't consider trying to run a soft water tank tank with any kh- raising additives. you have to neutralise it, or dump it. btw, i believe that over enough time, it will stabilise at ph 8.4.

rick


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## qbal18 (Jul 19, 2004)

ok i have replaced the gravel wil shell free sand (silica sand) i really like it. ok now my water after 1 day sitting has a kh of 20ppm now to get 25-30ppm of CO2 my ph has to be 6.0-6.2 is that a bit low. now i am willing to bring up the kh a bit but not much every were in vancouver keeps there tanks that softbecause of our water but with out co2 it is 7.0 is it possible and what do i ucs to bring the KH up to 30-35ppm i think that would be better since i woudl then have a more stable ph6.4 
Is it baking soda i use and if so how much?

50g tank, 2.5wpg, silica sand, 11hr full light period, Fe root tabs and jobes in sand, K2SO4 1 teaspoon 1-2 times per week kent plant fert 2ml daily


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Don't raise the kH!!!!! Try raising the pH instead. And you are doing something wrong in figuring your CO2 levels. I have a chart that goes to a kH of 15. With a kH of 15 and a pH of 7.0 you would have 45 ppm of CO2. If the kH goes up you would have even more.

To make it simple if the pH stays stable but the kH goes up the amount of CO2 in the water increases.

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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

I would try to get your KH level up to 60ppm!
I find anything under 40ppm a little to unstable for my tanks!
1 *TSP* of baking soda will raise your KH about 18ppm for 10 gallons.

Rex, PPM not dKH


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## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

rex, i believe his kh is 20 ppm, not 20 deg. there are 17 ppm in one deg, so his kh is about 1 deg.

to raise kh, it is just like what was in your old gravel: add crushed coral or shells. or more simply, after a water change, put a bag of your old gravel in your filter or in the tank in front of the filter, and take it out when the kh rises to where you want it.

i would be a little nervous about keeping a tank with a kh below 2 deg (35 ppm) without at least 2x weekly water changes. 

hth, rick


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Duh! Hit me with a stick.

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