# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Need help figuring out a fertilization scheme for tank



## Cougra (Mar 31, 2004)

Hello Everyone:

This is my first post but I have been reading here for a while trying to figure things out but still not having much luck as of yet.

I have a 15Gal tank (24"x12"x12") that has been set up for 10 months now. For lighting I have one 55WPC bulb 6500K temp. I havea yeast reactor for my CO2 production and an internal Fluval 2plus filter. Substrate is 1" red flourite covered with a 1/2" layer of fine (almost sandlike) quartz gravel. I do regular water changes (2.5 to 4Gallons at a time)with RO/DI water that has been corrected with Kent RO right product. 

My current readings that I have test kits for are:
pH = 7.4
dKh = 2.5mEq/L
Gh = 4
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrate = 0-5 ppm

I have tried experimenting with a few different ferts during the past 10 months and everytime I dose anything I get algae blooms galore in the tank. I know I need more Nitrates in the tank for the plants, but I'm becoming a little apprehensive when adding ferts.

I have tried Flourish excell and Nutrafins Plantgrow NPK.

Plantwise I have:
Bacopa monnieri, Cryptocaryon sp, Echinodorus var Rubin, Limnophila aquatica, Microanthemum umbrosum, Rotala rotundifolia, Rotala macranda, Cardamine sp and a small grass like plant I think to be E. teneatis.

Animalwise I have: 
5 Caridina japonica, 3 Dwarf Neon Rainbows, 4 Otocinclus affinis, 1 Pakastani Loach and 1 Siamese Flying Fox.


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## Cougra (Mar 31, 2004)

Hello Everyone:

This is my first post but I have been reading here for a while trying to figure things out but still not having much luck as of yet.

I have a 15Gal tank (24"x12"x12") that has been set up for 10 months now. For lighting I have one 55WPC bulb 6500K temp. I havea yeast reactor for my CO2 production and an internal Fluval 2plus filter. Substrate is 1" red flourite covered with a 1/2" layer of fine (almost sandlike) quartz gravel. I do regular water changes (2.5 to 4Gallons at a time)with RO/DI water that has been corrected with Kent RO right product. 

My current readings that I have test kits for are:
pH = 7.4
dKh = 2.5mEq/L
Gh = 4
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrate = 0-5 ppm

I have tried experimenting with a few different ferts during the past 10 months and everytime I dose anything I get algae blooms galore in the tank. I know I need more Nitrates in the tank for the plants, but I'm becoming a little apprehensive when adding ferts.

I have tried Flourish excell and Nutrafins Plantgrow NPK.

Plantwise I have:
Bacopa monnieri, Cryptocaryon sp, Echinodorus var Rubin, Limnophila aquatica, Microanthemum umbrosum, Rotala rotundifolia, Rotala macranda, Cardamine sp and a small grass like plant I think to be E. teneatis.

Animalwise I have: 
5 Caridina japonica, 3 Dwarf Neon Rainbows, 4 Otocinclus affinis, 1 Pakastani Loach and 1 Siamese Flying Fox.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

I'm not familiar with Plant Gro NPK. I just started dosing NPK separately after fighting with algae myself. Got the stuff from gregwatson.com. You need Phosphate test kit and iron though. Same thing like you, I kept getting algae bloom before everytime I put fertilizer. 

What I did to start is adding the nitrate w/ potassium nitrate slowly until hit 10ppm and phosphate w/ fleet enema until reach close to 1 ppm. Amazingly, I got no algae bloom. I stopped dosing and micro for the first few weeks. After I see the algae is not coming back, I added micro (plantex or Flourish) slowly (under dose) and check how it react. You don't want to overdose the iron from it or else .. another algae bloom. And I also add potassium sulfate on every water change.

Do you use Chuck's calculator?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Cougra,

Welcome to the forum!

Part of the problem is that you have a lot of light on the tank. You might find it easier for now to work with a 35 watt PC lamp. You could put your 55 watt lamp back on after you have the results you want.

Are you sure that you need to add fertilizers? Fish feeding and fish waste can provide all or a substantial amount of the nutrients the plants need. Their need for additional fertilizers depends on what you feed, how much you feed, how much light you have and how densely your tank is planted.

Don't use Flourish excel if you have DIY CO2. If you use DIY yeast CO2 then try to keep the CO2 levels fairly constant by changing the mix frequently and regularly. I'm not familiar with Plant-Gro NPK. I know it has N, P, and K. Does it also have iron and other trace nutrients?

Without knowing a little more about how and when you dosed in the past I'm not sure we can detect any problems with what you have done before.

As ninob suggested, if you need to add more nutrients then you might ease into a fertilizing regime. The first kind of fertilizer you should probably try is a general fertilizer like FloraPride, Flourish, Plant-Gro (not NPK) or Kent Botanica (?) that provides iron and a few other trace and minor nutrients that can run short in an aquarium. After that you might work on adding macro nutrients.

If you need to add macronutrients then they can be added from chemicals as ninob suggests, or you can get products that provide them separately or together. Both Kent and Seachem make products that provide the macronutrients separately. The Nutrafin Plant-Gro NPK product provides them pre-mixed.


Roger Miller


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Roger, I hope you could help me out here. I pretty much had the same problem with Cougra before. I didn't dose macro but dosing micro. And every single time I dosed micro, the algae bloomed. The plants were thriving and showing good coloration though. I did not overdose it and kept iron under .1ppm. So I stopped dosing micro for a month and started dosing macro. The algae seem to dissapear. After that then I started dosing micro again.

So, my question is which one should be dosed first micro or macro? I ask this because I'm planning to set up another planted and don't want to deal with algae first. Another thing, my nitrate was 3 ppm and PO4 less than 0.25 before dosing macro. After couple weeks of adding NPK, my nitrate is at 8ppm and PO4 at .5.


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## Cougra (Mar 31, 2004)

Attached is a photo of my tank (I hope) right after a massive pruning where i removed about 60% of the plant growth since my fish didn't have any room to move.

As for needind more nutrients. I assumed that since I had so much lighting, and CO2 and the nitrate reading was constantly very low and the constant algae blooms that the plants weren't getting enough of something to out compete the algae.

I realise that I do have a lot of light for the tank so I have the bulb raised about 8 inches above the waterline. Raising the light fixture helped a lot.

You're right though I do need to get phosphate and iron test kits.

Here is a link to the contents of Platgro NPK hope it helps a little. http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquatic/addinfo/ProdInfoA7685.cfm

I dosed half the recommended dosage only during water changes for the water that I added to the tank.

If I forgot to add anything, please feel free to ask. I'm really enjoying working with the planted tank but I realise I still havea lot to learn. I would rather get a better handle on things soon as I'm slowly gathering the equipment for a larger (48"x18"x18")planted tank. I figure if I can keep the 15Gal tank, the large tank will be a little easier!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

ninob,

Unlike some folks I don't think there is any silver bullet for algae -- especially in a new tank.

As I understand it, Tom Barr recommends that a new tanks should be set up and completely planted immediately. CO2 and all nutrients should be brought up to target levels and maintained at target levels from day one. That usually means that you have all the test kits you need and that you test frequently -- as much as twice a day -- to make sure that levels don't drop. Testing frequency drops off once conditions are well established.

My approach is similar, but not identical. I don't do things exactly as Tom recommends so I can't comment on how well Tom's procedure works.

I set a tank up and plant it immediately with what I have available, which often is not a full tank. I fertilize from day one with a procedure that works for me in similar tanks. In well lit tanks I use CO2 and I fertilize with both micros and macros. I test for nitrates now and then; for other things I test little or not at all. Instead, I watch the plants for signs of problems and respond to the problems when they appear.

In my tanks there is almost always a start-up algae problem; usually it's a minor one that goes away in a week or so. I don't adjust my fertilizing routine unless the plants indicate that something is in short supply. In the worst case the initial algae outbreak includes a variety of algae growing simultaneously. I clean once a week usually to keep the algae from taking over and wait the situation out. First the number of different algae drops off and then when there are only one or two kinds of algae in a tank I will either find an algae eater that will take care of it or I will remove the plants that are most effected by the algae.

Some of that messing about might be avoided by following Tom's advice.

I dont think I have ever adjusted nutrient levels for the sake of controlling algae. I adjust nutrients when the plants indicate there is a problem. Sometimes it's necessary to use a test kit to pin down a problem. When people try to adjust nutrient levels to solve algae problems it seems like they usually just trade one algae problem for another. After a few adjustments and a few algae swaps they might eventually end up with something they can live with.

Keep in mind that the best defense against algae is a tank full of fast-growing, healthy plants. It isn't easy to get that in a new tank.

First, new tanks are generally short on both micro nutrients and macro nutrients. You need to fertilize with both from the beginning in order to avoid problems. How much you fertilize is a secondary issue. I fertilize conservatively; increasing when conditions indicate and decreasing when I think I can get away with it. Starting with a fertile substrate might help. In this sense, Flourite is *not* a fertile substrate.

The second thing you need to do for a good start is use the right plants. The right plants are plants that are healthy and already adapted to submersed growing conditions. Nursery-grown plants are usually grown emmersed and their growth immediately falters when they are planted in an aquarium. Healthy nursery-grown plants usually have luxury accumulations of some nutrients; nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and iron, in particular. Shortages may not appear for a couple weeks after planting when you aren't paying close attention any more. Problems set in before you realize what is happening.

The most trouble-free start up I ever had was in a tank that was "planted" almost entirely with riccia. I grew the riccia in another tank and transfered it to the new tank. It took off without a hitch and the tank never had an algae problem to speak of.

Cougra's problem of establishing a fertilizing procedure in an existing setup is somewhat different. The plants are perhaps not in great health and algae are already established. Fish feeding and fish waste have already provided at least some of the plants needs for nitrogen and phosphorus. The most frequent shortages are probably potassium and iron.

First you have to make sure that the carbon supply is stable where you intend to keep it and consistent with your lighting. If you want a slow growth tank without added CO2 then it needs to start out that way from the beginning. If you want a moderately lit tank fed with a liquid carbon suppliment (Excel, for instance) then you need to get that procedure started from the beginning. If you want CO2 (DIY or pressurized) then that needs to be running and stable as soon as possible.

If the plants are weak or poorly colored then it is best to start with a general product (Flourish, for instance) that provides potassium, iron and other trace nutrients. If any of those things have become growth-limiting then both plants and algae will grow as soon as the fertilizer is added. There is no way around the algae "bloom." Normally it is a short lived problem. It can be treated like the initial algae problems in a new tank.

I think it's best to monitor nitrate levels while fertilizing. If nitrate disappears then it is necessary to start dosing right away. Otherwise macro-nutrient dosing should wait until the plants give a specific indication that something is needed. Macronutrient dosing may never be necessary. If it is necessary to fertilize with macronutrients then there may be an initial algae bloom. In fact, if there isn't an algae bloom then it is likely that the nutrient you added wasn't needed.

At any rate, algae are a natural part of a tank. Learning to keep an aquatic garden is often a matter of coming to grips with the algae. It does no good to get overly concerned about the problem. Drastic measures are rarely the answer; patience and observation usually do the trick.


Roger Miller


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## Cougra (Mar 31, 2004)

Just to see if I'm understanding correctly, since I see algae blooms when I start dosing, it's more of a sign to keep it up fora bit and ignore the algae unless it gets really out of hand then remove what I can and see if the plants can take over after a week or two? 

I know I"m constantly low on nitrates in the tank, I often get little to no reading on them. I'll pick up a phosphate and iron test kit in the next few days and work from there.

By macronutrients do you mean Nitrate, phosphate and potasium? 

The more I read the more I realise that I don't know about and the more I realise my basic fundamentals are missing. 

If flourite isn't a fertile substrate, what is considered one? I was under the impression (AKA listened to the LFS)that flourite was one of the best substrates for planted tanks. 


Sigh, if only I had found this site a few months sooner, but alas I get stuck with the joys of attempting to correct my initial mistakes and learn a great deal more in the process!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Cougra:
> Just to see if I'm understanding correctly, since I see algae blooms when I start dosing, it's more of a sign to keep it up fora bit and ignore the algae unless it gets really out of hand then remove what I can and see if the plants can take over after a week or two?


That's right. If you add something and it doesn't make something grow, then the tank didn't need what you added. If you add something that the tank does need then the first reaction will be for both the algae and the plants to grow.



> quote:
> 
> By macronutrients do you mean Nitrate, phosphate and potasium?


Yes.



> quote:
> 
> If flourite isn't a fertile substrate, what is considered one? I was under the impression (AKA listened to the LFS)that flourite was one of the best substrates for planted tanks.


Flourite is a good planting medium; it's lighter than gravel and holds rooted plants well. It does not contain nitrogen or phosphorus and I don't think it contains potassium. It does contain iron, manganese and other metals, but it doesn't necessarily yield those nutrients to plants under the conditions provided in a new aquarium.

I think some of the other "made for planted tanks" substrates may be more fertile. If you really want a fertile substrate then probably soil is your best bet. Working with soil substrates is a whole 'nuther business.



> quote:
> 
> Sigh, if only I had found this site a few months sooner, but alas I get stuck with the joys of attempting to correct my initial mistakes and learn a great deal more in the process!


You aren't alone. Very few of us start out on the right foot.

Roger Miller


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Roger, thanks for the explanation. Next time I'll try to follow that. I don't have any serious algae problem since the beginning but as you said, it was like one after another. Now my tanks look like going the right direction after all the targeted macros and micros hit. I guess I should've done that since the beginning instead of doing balancing act one by one.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

that's almost 4 wpg....how high up is your lighting above the water line????


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## Cougra (Mar 31, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I realise that I do have a lot of light for the tank so I have the bulb raised about 8 inches above the waterline. Raising the light fixture helped a lot.


Algea Grower, I have the lights about 8 inches above the waterline. I keep the lights on 14 hours a day, I have considered reducing that but I like seeing the tank lite before and after I come home from work. The other alternative is to have it come on a couple hours in the morning, off four about 5 hours and on again during the evening.

Last night while I was at the LFS I was talking to the store assistant manager. He was going through inventory and was taking all the expired items off the shelf. He had boxes full of recently expired Ferts and gave me a couple bottles of the Hagens Iron enriched Plant-Gro, Expires 04-2004. Would I still be able to use this, is there anything I should do to ensure that it's still alirght?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with it. I could be wrong and someone correct me if i am, but give it a try in small doses ....if you see an effect, then keep using it...if not, then stop. =)


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