# New 20 gallon - plants dying



## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Hey all, this is my current setup. I started off my 20g tank with trying to mineralize my Lowes topsoil last month, but with the snow and ice all around, I just ended up soaking and rinsing the soil a few times, spread over a week. In my current setup, I have about 1" of topsoil capped with 0.5" to 1" of Petco black sand. I buried several pieces of Amaco Mexican red clay in the topsoil.

I had a bunch of plants and they are all melting. The water wisteria plants died and the moneywort and ludwigia repens lost most of their leaves. The java ferns are still okay, but have a few black leaves.

Does anyone have suggestions on what could be wrong and how to fix it? In another thread, Diana Walstad replied to a forum member by suggesting that the soil could be anaerobic, so I poked my soil earlier this afternoon - and there were a lot of bubbles. Looks like Petco black sand is a little too fine.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes this happened to me a few setups ago. Keep poking the soil daily and invest in lots of heavy rooting plants like crypts (I like wendtiis) or medium sized swords. Also I'd do as close to a full water change as you can right away to get rid of any byproducts of the anaerobic soil that might be damaging the plants. Until the bubbling is remedied and the heavy rooters are established I'd continue doing regular 1/4 - 1/2 tank water changes once or twice a week depending on how well it's doing. 

Once the soil in this tank is fixed i would make sure to keep it well planted in all areas of the substrate otherwise it will become anaerobic again quite quickly. This is one of the drawbacks that can happen sometimes with a sand topper. 

Mineralizing does help but mineralized soil can still become anaerobic. 
Hopefully this helps!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Welcome to the forum.

We need to see photos of the plants (close up and in focus) to tell you what is wrong with them.

What lighting do you have?


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Rusalka said:


> Yes this happened to me a few setups ago. Keep poking the soil daily and invest in lots of heavy rooting plants like crypts (I like wendtiis) or medium sized swords. Also I'd do as close to a full water change as you can right away to get rid of any byproducts of the anaerobic soil that might be damaging the plants. Until the bubbling is remedied and the heavy rooters are established I'd continue doing regular 1/4 - 1/2 tank water changes once or twice a week depending on how well it's doing.
> 
> Once the soil in this tank is fixed i would make sure to keep it well planted in all areas of the substrate otherwise it will become anaerobic again quite quickly. This is one of the drawbacks that can happen sometimes with a sand topper.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rusalka. I just did a 100% water change an hour ago. I keep poking the substrate once a day. I will buy crypt wendtiis soon. Prior to converting this tank to a planted tank, I had a sword which was okay, but then lost its leaves after planting it in the substrate. Hopefully, it will recover soon. I can see new leaves on some of the ludwigia repens and moneywort stems. The stem/branches of the sword are still green.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Zapins said:


> Welcome to the forum.


Thanks Zapins.



Zapins said:


> We need to see photos of the plants (close up and in focus) to tell you what is wrong with them.


This is what the tank looks like right now (I just did a 100% water change).









This is the ludwigia repens. The black tube on the left side is the airline tube.









This is the anubias - there are two of them.









This is the moneywort.









In the middle are more moneywort plants. To the left is a leaf of the anubias shown earlier.











Zapins said:


> What lighting do you have?


I have the default two T10 25W incandescent bulbs that came with this tank (Grreat Choice 20 gallon starter kit). I turn them on for 10-12 hours a day. Also, the tank is beside the window. The blinds are usually shut, but it does get some light from outside.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

arul said:


> I have the default two T10 *25W incandescent bulbs* that came with this tank (Grreat Choice 20 gallon starter kit). I turn them on for 10-12 hours a day. Also, the tank is beside the window. The blinds are usually shut, but it does get some light from outside.


This is the problem. A lack of light. Incandescent bulbs produce almost no usable light. You'll need to switch them out for fluorescent light bulbs (the higher the wattage the better), or get a totally new lighting fixture. You'll want about 20-60 watts of T5 HO light for proper lighting. FugeRay 2 LEDs are also alright.

Here is another thread with a light deficiency and the result of upgrading the lights:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-deficiencies/89818-can-anyone-help-me-out.html

Outside windows usually don't cut it.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

arul said:


> I have the default two T10 25W incandescent bulbs that came with this tank (Grreat Choice 20 gallon starter kit). I turn them on for 10-12 hours a day. Also, the tank is beside the window. The blinds are usually shut, but it does get some light from outside.


I think this is the problem. A lack of light. incandescent bulbs produce almost no usable light. You'll need to switch them out for fluorescent light bulbs (the higher the wattage the better), or get a totally new lighting fixture. You'll want about 20-60 watts of T5 HO light for proper lighting. FugeRay 2 LEDs are also alright.

Here is another thread with a light deficiency and the result of upgrading the lights:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-deficiencies/89818-can-anyone-help-me-out.html

Sunlight usually don't cut it unless it directly hits the tank for a few hours a day.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Zapins said:


> I think this is the problem. A lack of light. incandescent bulbs produce almost no usable light. You'll need to switch them out for fluorescent light bulbs (the higher the wattage the better), or get a totally new lighting fixture. You'll want about 20-60 watts of T5 HO light for proper lighting. FugeRay 2 LEDs are also alright.
> 
> Here is another thread with a light deficiency and the result of upgrading the lights:
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-deficiencies/89818-can-anyone-help-me-out.html
> ...


Hey thanks for the info. I'm actually trying a low light/low tech planted tank. I read that T5HO are for hi-tech tanks. Are there any low-tech alternatives to the T5 bulbs? My tank size is 24"x12"x16" (LxWxH).


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You can use T8 bulbs. Many low tech tanks use T8 since they put out enough light to grow plants but don't put out as much as T5HO. I'd say you probably need about 30-40 watts of T8 light for good growth.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

I'd like to convert my hood into a DIY CFL with two 23W CFL bulbs. I'll get a dual bulb fixture like the one in this photo:










I've been doing partial water changes every 1 or 2 days. I see new leaves sprouting up, but the old leaves are melting, including the moneywort plants. Hopefully with the new light, things should be better.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Typically the 23 w bulbs are too large for the standard fixture. The bulbs get quite hot. I melted the plastic on one fixture a few years ago.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

I would like to echo Bruce's comment. I had a 20g NPT a few setups ago that had insane growth with half the amount of light shown in your picture - possibly even less. I'm all for lots of light but that much may not be necessary. 

Also I'm sure you are already aware, but just a reminder, - the cool white CFLs will produce best results.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

I guess I won't modify my fixture then. A 23w bulb is a little big for the T10 size fixture and will definitely heat up the hood.

I went to Home Depot and saw a few clamping work lights for a little under $10 but can't figure out where to hang them properly behind my tank.

I also saw this lamp with a flexible neck that I bought. I've attached photos here.










This is a closeup.










However I'll have to return it because it says on the tag that a maximum of 13w cfl can be used. That's too low for my tank.

Do you guys have any DIY suggestions on lighting? Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

For my previous set up I used 2 of the fixtures in the attached picture: Hampton Bay 13-7/8 in. Satin Chrome CFL Clamp Lamp - that were bought at Home Depot. Each fixture had a 13W cool white light bulb. They are also fairly cheap. I don't know if you live near an IKEA but I remember seeing some good options there too.

It was a bit of a challenge figuring what to clamp them to. I ended up making a simple wooden frame that I painted black. I screwed the frame to the back of my stand so that it lined up just behind the black trim at the back of the tank. This allowed me to angle the lights perfectly and was more discrete (and probably safer) than clamping them directly to the tank.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Also, as I mentioned above adding some easy growing plants will do a world of wonders. 

Out of curiosity, what are you using the airstones for? Do you have fish that need it? If it isn't for fish I would recommend switching it for something that will gently circulate the water without causing surface agitation. Surface agitation can actually reduce the overall CO2 levels in a Walstad / El natural tank.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Rusalka said:


> For my previous set up I used 2 of the fixtures in the attached picture: Hampton Bay 13-7/8 in. Satin Chrome CFL Clamp Lamp - that were bought at Home Depot. Each fixture had a 13W cool white light bulb. They are also fairly cheap. I don't know if you live near an IKEA but I remember seeing some good options there too.
> 
> It was a bit of a challenge figuring what to clamp them to. I ended up making a simple wooden frame that I painted black. I screwed the frame to the back of my stand so that it lined up just behind the black trim at the back of the tank. This allowed me to angle the lights perfectly and was more discrete (and probably safer) than clamping them directly to the tank.


Thanks Rusalka! That's very helpful. I will try to use a clamp lamp the same way. I'll try to use an old curtain rod and attach the clamp lamp to it.



Rusalka said:


> Also, as I mentioned above adding some easy growing plants will do a world of wonders.


We went to Petsmart and got a bunch of crypt wendtii (green) and anacharis yesterday. It contained about 22 plants and we planted them after a 50% water change.



Rusalka said:


> Out of curiosity, what are you using the airstones for? Do you have fish that need it? If it isn't for fish I would recommend switching it for something that will gently circulate the water without causing surface agitation. Surface agitation can actually reduce the overall CO2 levels in a Walstad / El natural tank.


A couple of weeks ago, the plants were all dying and there were anaerobic pockets all around. I could smell H2S. Diana Walstad suggested in a reply in another post that there were very low levels of CO2 and that the O2 levels were to be raised, using airstones. And poking the substrate. I did that, and added more light as you suggested, and the plants actually started growing new leaves. The tank is far from okay, but hopefully with more water changes things should be fine. I got my API master test kit yesterday.

My top soil is the generic one from Lowes and after soaking it outside for a week or so, I put it in the tank and left it for a few weeks. I later added Petco black sand (which seems a little too fine). Then I bought Amaco Mexican clay and added several 1cm wide balls in the substrate. Maybe the iron in the clay is too much. It seems easier to just tear up the tank and restart the process.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

arul said:


> We went to Petsmart and got a bunch of crypt wendtii (green) and anacharis yesterday. It contained about 22 plants and we planted them after a 50% water change.


- Great, that should help!



arul said:


> A couple of weeks ago, the plants were all dying and there were anaerobic pockets all around. I could smell H2S. Diana Walstad suggested in a reply in another post that there were very low levels of CO2 and that the O2 levels were to be raised, using airstones. And poking the substrate. I did that, and added more light as you suggested, and the plants actually started growing new leaves. The tank is far from okay, but hopefully with more water changes things should be fine. I got my API master test kit yesterday.


- OK, sounds reasonable - if you are still smelling the H2S continue with the airstones.



arul said:


> My top soil is the generic one from Lowes and after soaking it outside for a week or so, I put it in the tank and left it for a few weeks. I later added Petco black sand (which seems a little too fine). Then I bought Amaco Mexican clay and added several 1cm wide balls in the substrate. Maybe the iron in the clay is too much. It seems easier to just tear up the tank and restart the process.


- Sand can cause an issue sometimes but lots of people have used it successfully, so I wouldn't tear up the tank just yet. I think with all the changes you are doing you'll start to see things getting better. I don't think the issue is with the nutrient richness of the soil - the issue is probably that there is not enough flow between the soil and water - and as a result H2S is building up. But you can achieve increased gas exchange by planting heavily. Hopefully you will find that your new plants will help. If you happen to see some sagittaria subulata at your lfs I recommend buying it as well - it is especially helpful for tanks where the soil has developed anaerobic pockets. It's a very easy to grow plant.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Glad your plants are growing again, but in order to determine what caused plants to grow again, only one parameter should be changed at a time.

Adding a new light, poking holes to remove sulfur, etc all confound what the root cause is.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks Rusalka and Zapins! The plants are growing well now, after adding the crypts and anacharis. I suspect that the crypts we got from Petsmart are crypt parvae and not crypt wendtii. But they are doing great, there's no melting at all.

The moneywort plants have actually started flowering - there are buds on a few stems.

There is no more smell of H2S, and the soil actually seems stabilized. Poking the substrate doesn't show as many bubbles as it did earlier We've also reduced the airstone bubbling speed. It's still on, but just to provide basic water movement.

I agree I should have done it one at a time to pinpoint the actual problem, but I was worried about everything dying so I just ended up putting all fixes at once (changing the lighting, water changes, poking the substrate, airstones). One or more of the solutions have worked though, and hopefully there shouldn't be any other serious problem.

Our future plan is to make a DIY glass top (maybe a sliding one) and do the clamp lights.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Good news! Keep us updated with how the plants go and what you decide to do with the glass top.


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Glad to hear! It was likely a combo of a few elements that caused your initial problem - but now that it is clearing up, you can enjoy watching your plants grow! 

Perhaps you may not have isolated which parameter, or parameters caused the initial problem, but you also avoided a complete tank melt - which, in an of itself, is a very valuable experience.

Keep and eye on the bubbling, maybe add a few more plants when you get a chance, get your lighting set up when you can and most importantly enjoy! Gotta love DIY projects.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks guys!

We just tested the water with the API master kit that came a few days ago. The levels are as follows:

ph = 8.2
Ammonia = 0.25
Nitrite = 0.25ppm
Nitrate = 5ppm

I'm wondering if the Topfin dechlorinator that I've been using is useful beyond removing chlorine and chloramine. I'm planning to buy Prime on Amazon tonight.

What would be the best "natural" way to get the nitrites down to 0? I'll do daily 50% water changes over the next few days. The last water change was on Sunday (3 days back).


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Water changes are the fastest way of decreasing ammonia and nitrites assuming your source water doesn't have any. That said, the levels you have aren't harmful and don't really require a water change.

Some dechlorinating products produce ammonia when they break the chloramine bond. Ammonia then turns into nitrite and later to nitrate via bacterial action.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Zapins said:


> Water changes are the fastest way of decreasing ammonia and nitrites assuming your source water doesn't have any. That said, the levels you have aren't harmful and don't really require a water change.
> 
> Some dechlorinating products produce ammonia when they break the chloramine bond. Ammonia then turns into nitrite and later to nitrate via bacterial action.


Considering the current levels, would this be a good time to add fish, nerite snails and/or ghost shrimp? I've not yet tried adding fish flakes to the water and checking the levels.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Probably safer to wait it out a little longer until the ammonia zeros out. The current levels aren't harmful to plants, but they do indicate that either there is a source of ammonia in the tank (dechlorinator, dying plants etc), or perhaps the bacteria and plants aren't established enough to use it up.

If you add fish now any waste they make will not be taken care of and may build up to harmful levels.

What lighting did you end up putting on the tank? What is the total light at the moment?


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Zapins said:


> Probably safer to wait it out a little longer until the ammonia zeros out. The current levels aren't harmful to plants, but they do indicate that either there is a source of ammonia in the tank (dechlorinator, dying plants etc), or perhaps the bacteria and plants aren't established enough to use it up.
> 
> If you add fish now any waste they make will not be taken care of and may build up to harmful levels.
> 
> What lighting did you end up putting on the tank? What is the total light at the moment?


I'm pretty sure the ammonia is from the dead leaves and debris. There are remnants of leaves that fell off and a few twigs that came out of the substrate. Some of the red Amaco Mexican clay also came out of the soil. Probably a few more water changes may help. I'll put off adding fish for later.

The current lighting is a table lamp with CFL 13W that shines light over the left side and a table lamp with CFL 13W that shines light from the front. These run for 12 hours a day (9am-9pm). It's a little weird when you look at the setup, but the priority is to give light to the plants, until the DIY clamp lighting is done.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I had almost complete melt when my lights failed down to 1/3(I have 3 LED light strips on which the drivers failed).
I have immersed plants which kept the tank in balance along with heavy filtration but the underwater the plants suffered and the symptoms of yours seemed to me lack of light too. Also, on the pictures it seems soil dust covers the leaves. Make sure they are clean of any dust as the plants can't function properly.

I am glad your tank is back to recovery.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

arul said:


> This is what the tank looks like right now (I just did a 100% water change).
> 
> View attachment 20762
> 
> ...


Dear Arul,

I suspect that this letter may be too late, but hopefully it will be instructive to other beginners starting out.

Thanks for the picture. It explains why your tank isn't doing well. There are not enough plants. I would have started off with four times more plants than what you show.

The tank decorations are cute, but if they are on top of the soil layer, they are smothering the soil and creating anaerobic pockets. I would not have used them.

Planted tanks are difficult. When you add driftwood and tank decorations, you are sacrificing valuable real estate that could be planted, plus adding a potential problem. The focus should always being on having enough plants and several different species rather than tank décor, especially if it's your first planted tank. Instead of those two decorative pieces in your tank, I would have planted Amazon Swordplants or Sagittaria.

A new tank requires a laser-like focus on having enough plants and robust species right from the beginning. Without vigorous plant growth, algae will fill the void and take over the tank.

If you have a good supply of robust plants, sure try a 20 gal. But if you don't, it's better to start with a tiny tank or bowl. Generally, beginners can find enough plants for a small 1 gal bowl or a 5 gal tank. That way, they can _pack _ the bowl with many plants per gal right at the beginning. If the bowl does well, the hobbyist automatically builds up a big mass of good growing plants for a larger-size tank. Also, these "home-grown" plants have now adapted to the hobbyists' unique soil and water conditions. They've adapted to being submerged. (Most plants sold have been grown emergent, and have to adapt to submerged state, which can be tricky for them.)


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

SBS said:


> I had almost complete melt when my lights failed down to 1/3(I have 3 LED light strips on which the drivers failed).
> I have immersed plants which kept the tank in balance along with heavy filtration but the underwater the plants suffered and the symptoms of yours seemed to me lack of light too. Also, on the pictures it seems soil dust covers the leaves. Make sure they are clean of any dust as the plants can't function properly.
> 
> I am glad your tank is back to recovery.


Thanks SBS. The lighting was an important part, as suggested by Zapin and Rusalka, and I see new growth after replacing the incandescent 10W [lights to two 13W CFLs. I'll have to clean the leaves.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

dwalstad said:


> Dear Arul,
> 
> I suspect that this letter may be too late, but hopefully it will be instructive to other beginners starting out.
> 
> ...


Thanks Diana! The plants have recovered and are growing. And sorry, I've not updated this thread with new photos. I've attached new photos taken a few days ago.

This is what we did over the last few weeks to get it from near-death to growing:

1. Poked the substrate once a day.
2. Added airstones to jumpstart oxygen.
3. Replaced both the incandescent T10 bulbs with 13W CFL bulbs. They run on a 4-2-4 period.
4. Introduced a couple of Malaysian trumpet snails. They do a good job of aerating the soil.
5. Added a bunch of crypts in the front.
5. Added 4 or 5 anacharis stems in the back.

Those really made a difference. The soil doesn't smell anymore. I still have the airstones on, though at a lesser speed.

I also added several new plants five days ago (got these in an RAOK) - includes frogbit floaters, rotola indica, anacharis narrow and vals.

I also added a zebra nerite snail and bunch of zebra/leopard danios last week. They are doing good.

The tank seems to have stabilized at this point.

I wondered earlier if the hut may be adding to the anaerobic condition, particularly since it's on an elevation (so more soil below), but I really wanted the hut in the tank. It's a nipa hut (traditional Philippine hut) and I wanted the theme to be on the lines of "nipa hut in a forest". The introduction of the crypts and anacharis reduced the bubbling greatly.

At some point, we plan to get a bigger tank, and we'll shift the two decorations there.

I've been doing a lot of things backwards (like reading your book a few days ago). Hopefully for the next tank/jar/bottle onwards, it will be smoother.

Thank you so much for the advice!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Wow! I'm impressed with your stamina, remedy methods, and the tank's recovery. Thanks for posting your new photos, so that we can all see this "turn around."

If the plants grow and the fish are healthy like what you have now, nothing else really matters. 

Good job! 

P.S. I really like that little hut.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

dwalstad said:


> Wow! I'm impressed with your stamina, remedy methods, and the tank's recovery. Thanks for posting your new photos, so that we can all see this "turn around."
> 
> If the plants grow and the fish are healthy like what you have now, nothing else really matters.
> 
> ...


Thanks Diana! 

My wife got involved in this and did a lot of the redesign, new planting, replanting and soil work (removal of the extra substrate - I originally put in 2"-3" topsoil, she removed the excess and made it 1"), water testing, poking the substrate and so on. It's been fun so far!

Your book has been very useful! There are a lot of things in it that add up.


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