# No water column ferts: How is that possible?



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

This is a post continuing the big thread in which some of us discussed what are the downsides/upsides of EI versus an approach in which the nutrients in the water area minimal. If I post the following information in the big thread it will probably get lost because big threads with many pages are cumbersome to follow.

This is the big thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ssions/86006-niko-says-high-tech-cant-go.html

And this is an interesting tank which had zero N and P added to the water. The plant health is beyond outstanding. Rotala with such closely growing leaves and HC spreading so fast are not just rare.

Details about the tank:

- 8 inches of water column

- Shrimp only

- Lots of waste in shirakura substrate

- 1 bps CO2, nano diffuser. The shallow water does not allow for the bubbles to travel very long to the surface.

- 7 GH

- KH = 0 because of the shirakura substrate which absorbs carbonates
(At low KH the CO2 saturates quickly and it is available to the plants at lower concentrations.)

- Light: 6000K leds - about 10 watts total. More toward blue color. The light is quite a bit but under these LEDs the colors did not appear very saturated green.

- Ferts: Minor amounts of micros (Easy life, Profito). Also added some K2SO4.
no N or P.
P was below 0.05 ppm.

- Water changes: Irregular because there were no fish

- Water movement: Pump 170 gph. Spraybar pointing upwards by the back glass (to kill the strong flow).
When the flow curves down by the front glass it hits the CO2 diffuser from above.

- HC was placed in the tank in an emersed form. Not a single emesrsed leaf ever yellowed or died.


































Same tank with 11 watts of Compact Fluorescent light. The pix show progress in 2.5 months:

















Ok, one has to say the above pictures are very impressive because of the amazing plant growth AND no algae in sight. My take on that spectacular plant health is that the tank is very shallow. The dirty substrate and the water void of nutrients may not allow algae to grow while making plants grow very well but not THAT WELL. SO I suspect that the light penetrates the water very well. Another possible explanation is the good and even CO2 distribution.

Two questions:
- Can you grow a bunch of pristinely clean Anubias submersed, fast, and without any spot algae on it?
- Why do you think those plants couild care less about the ferts "missing" in the water?

What is your take?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

And here's a video of the same tank. Do not know at what stage. Note how clean the plants are:


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Come on Niko, what's the big deal. It's a nutrient rich substrate and the plants have access to N & P. I could do the same with an AS tank and not add much for a year.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Then please tell me again why most people add a lot of fertilizers to the water? If it was so easy to setup a tank with rich substrate and have plants like those on these pictures why bother with liquid fertilizers? 

The plants on the pictures are better looking than quite a few EI tanks. Including tanks with AquaSoil and excessive EI dosing. If P<0.05 is enough to grow the plants on the pictures than anything above that has go to be called "excessive". And it is.

For some people, not only me, EI is wrong from the very start. There is no point trying to prove that to anyone. 

What I don't understand here is why the plants on the pictures look so good and that is why I posted these pictures.

Thers is a guy that used to post on APC (ukamikazu) and he developed a super-duper substrate that provided everything that we know of the plants need. He described the substrate and its components on the Aquaticplantenthusiasts forum some months ago. After looking at the pictures above I may start to really believe that rich substrate can actually do everything for the plants. And what you said pushes me in that direction too. But it can't be just any rich substrate. Apparently the substrate in the tank above does something that AquaSoil does not. Ukamikazu's substrate may be much more solid approach than even ADA themselves. That's a pretty bold statement but people easily fall for pretty pictures and abundant cheap talk.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Niko every time you put food in an aquarium you are adding NPK.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

With food you are increasing the P and not the N if the tank is running as is supposed to.

That guy has only small shrimp in that tank. He didn't mention feeding them. Even if he fed them their food would raise the N very, very little.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

niko said:


> ..For some people, not only me, EI is wrong from the very start. There is no point trying to prove that to anyone.


Never said it was for everyone, but you can't say it doesn't work. If my tanks are based on this, *what is the downside*, because I don't see it. So what if I'm wasting some NPK, I don't have any issues. Either system relies heavily on the water change without that we both now the organics will mess you up.

BTW that tank you showing looks like a lowlight setup, plus it's a short tank. A limited setup in terms of keeping a scape.


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## 1077 (Nov 7, 2011)

niko said:


> With food you are increasing the P and not the N if the tank is running as is supposed to.
> 
> That guy has only small shrimp in that tank. He didn't mention feeding them. Even if he fed them their food would raise the N very, very little.


Your first post said "lot's of waste in substrate" 
Is no mystery here.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

House, I will say it openly.

No, I won't. I just deleted a long and honest write up.

This is a post for people that don't buy into a hype. Someone else's or mine. If I had something to sell you'd know it a long time ago. I do not sell anything. Many others do sell you whatever they feel the need to sell.

So here's what I have said many times about EI:

- EI does not exist in Nature. No body of water is full of all the nutrients in excess.

- EI may not be about excess nutrients but people take it to be. There is no effort to change that.

- Not a single professional aquascaper uses EI.

- The "simple, cheap, and easy" EI has been around for years but we are still dealing with algae.

- A tank with nutrients floating in the water has a much higher risk of developing algae very fast.

- EI "method" does not mention a single thing about the very basics of running an aquarium.

- EI has changed from "fertilizers are everyting" to "fertilizers + rich substrate are everything". Both of these are only part of the full picture.

- EI is not popular because it works very well. People fall for marketing and continous presence. Look at virtually all aquascaping forums you can find. The stickes are about EI and PPS only. Not a word about ADA but we all take Amano to be some kind of god. Now look at these guys that don't know or care how to market all their wisdom:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...thod-controlled-imbalances-discussion-22.html
http://bialix.com/amania/index.html
http://deters-ing.de

There is more. I hate to talk about EI here or anywhere because of the reasons I deleted. I know people that just stop posting or delete their posts. Hope you now understand why for so long I'd not give you a clear answer.

1077,

Why if rich substrate can grow plants like those AND never give algae a chance we are all hell bent on fertilizing the water too much? Don't tell me you have a tank at home that you dump ferts in every day and at the same time marvel at ADA, Knott, the plethora of Asian copy-cat dudes, ADG, etc.

So, back to my original question: 
*What makes that tank on the picture grow such amazing plants without anything being added to the water? *


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## 1077 (Nov 7, 2011)

What is fertilizing too much? 
I won't tell you I have a soil tank at home that I dump fertz in each day cause I don't dump them in each day,Maybe 1/3 EI once a week after water change.
We cannot know what mineral's plant's may need in your tank,my tank,for we do not know what may be lacking from source water,we do not know how much fish waste may be enough for stocking schemes are different ,we cannot know what soil's each of us uses,we cannot know plant mass need's for plant mass is subjective term.
We cannot know whether Alage problem's are result of EI or poor CO2 distribution,too much light too little CO2 ,too little fertz for large plant mass,fasty grower's,slow grower's.
Are many successful method's for growing weed's.No method will suit everyones need's.
Can find algae in all tank's if you look really close (even Amano agree's).
I do hope you have permission from those whose tank's you post up,but I would like to hear from them rather than someone with AX to grind .
Would be more revealing, interesting.Perhap's from some professional aquascaper's rather than your word as to what they may or may not utilize .
I do agree with you that there is nothing natural about glass box of water though we strive to recreate it.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

niko said:


> ...- Not a single professional aquascaper uses EI... [/b]


Are you sure? What about these tanks I linked from the other thread:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2012/show240.html
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2012/show390.html

BTW You probably won't believe me, but I'm pretty sure I setup a bunch of scapes in NYC and got paid for it. I think that makes me a professional scaper although I have a regular day job. And I"m talking large setups that ran well into the thousands of dollars just for hardscape/plants and design. Although I could have imagined the whole thing.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

It's been years since I dosed any nutrients. I don't add carbon. I start a new tank with a soil substrate, add fish, and feed them well. One tank has been set up for about 7 years.

The only significant problem is that I have to prune and trim about once a month, but I'm dealing with that.

I try to keep things as simple as possible.

Bill


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

House forget the talk, here's a real tank:

I have a:
-30 gallon tank with P=0.15 and N=3 (guaranteed test results)
-Inert gravel (old, at least 4 years now. All disturbed mulm settles down and the water is crystal clear within 2-3 min.)
-4 wpg of brand new T5HO, 1" from the water surface
-CO2 at 2 bps
-KH=5, GH=4
-Fluval 404 full to the top with only lava rock
-Good flow at the surface to ensure good gas exchange
-Water moving throughout the tank but the flow is 3x the tank volume only. 
-Water is crystal clear. Water changes - every 3 days (30%). Neons could not be happier (laid eggs a few weeks ago) 
-Micros, Fe, Ca, Mg, KNO3 - all added in the water 
-Water changes - every 3 days (30%) 
-Plants pearl like hell. One of the swords makes a new leaf every 3 days (25" long and 8" wide)
-Swords, Lotus, Najas, Java Fern, Ceratopteris

Algae:
- BGA
- Green Dot Algae
- Green String Algae
- Green Dust Algae
- Fluffy diatom-looking algae
- Some encrusting kind of almost black algae
- Found a single tiny tuff of BBA too!

I will try to agree with you and Tom Barr: Something is way off with the fertilizers. I do need to figure out what to add in the water to correct the horrible issues, right? I think of starting with adding everything in excess and then slowly lowering the concentrations. Exactly what EI is. Not what people think EI is (keeping sky high ferts in the water all the time).

The best strategy, right? What would you suggest I do? Today I reduced the light in half - 2 wpg now. But too much light is not a problem with good ferts, right?

If you want a picture of the tank I can post one. The above is 100% true. All that noise and effort and than that guy shows me his little tank that grows showcase quality plants with zero ferts. What gives?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

1077,

That guy is one of the people that are sick of the midset of this hobby. I don't think he sees any point in posting or participating in any constests any more. And he is not the only one going silent like that. 

I asked him for the details two times because I could not believe what he told me. Yes, I asked him for permission to post here and told him why I want to post. I think he said something like "Who's gonna be interested?". Tanks with no ferts and no algae - noone is interested? Wow. I think he is right. 

And yes, he told me that you can see algae in that small tank - if you look under a magnifying glass you can make out some kind of algae on the anubias leaves here and there. Not visible with a naked eye.

So I hope you appreciate that I took the time to upload pictures and write the info. He also showed me 2 more very interesting tanks of his but I don't think I will be writing about what is interesting in them. Too much "novelty".


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Niko, why do you skip over actual evidence staring you right in the face. Yada, yada let's move on. Maybe your using the forum as some kind of social science experiment and the planted tank stuff is just a distraction.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

House,

*The two tanks:*
You show pictures of two tanks:
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2012/show240.html
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2012/show390.html

The first tank has Rotala and Lidwigia tips as red as they can be. That means very low NO3 in the water. The tank has AquaSoil which makes all the carpet plants grow lush. The guy says he uses EI. How much are the N and P? How is his EI different than what ADA does?

The second tank is a more weird example. Even the lights are ADA. Uses AquaSoil and other ADA substrates. The plants will do just fine without much ferts in the water - carpet plants, mosses, shaded anubias, and stems that are close to the surface of the water. Guy says he uses EI. How much are the N and P? How is that EI differnt than what ADA does?

Ok, you say the two tanks are full blown EI. That makes 2 people that use EI. I assume they are professionals with many EI aquascapes. Plus you and Tom Barr. So 4 (four) professionals use EI. Instead of going down that road why don't you and I write a letter to Amano, Knott, ADG, and as many professional Asian aquascapers that we can reach and ask them if they'd consider using EI?

*The "experiment":*
If what I say is kind of an experiment here are the basics: 
Tom Barr is preoccupied with convincing everybody how knowledgeable he is and how if they follow what he says they will have great success. EI works, no doubt about that. And any issues are your own fault. 
I am busy telling people they must not follow anybody and should be more critical. I'm seen as a person that tells people that they are stupid. What kind of an experiment goal one can come up with?

*My own problematic tank:*
If I was to cure my tank of the algae using EI I should first dump a good excess of ferts in the water. To provide everything they need. No precise amounts, just and "estimate" of what is "more than enough". Then I should gradually start decreasing the concentrations untill I reach a sustainable state.

EI does not even discuss all the other aspects of keeping a tank. You can find one suggestion to use 5.5 wpg of light but that's it. No biofilter discussion, no interaction of high CO2 and biofilter. No flow rate discussion. No flow pattern discussion. The fertilizers are the center of the system:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html
http://www.barrreport.com/forumdisplay.php/38-Estimative-Index

So I should keep all my harmless strong light, the filtration as I seem fit, the old inert substrate. And play with fertilizers + maybe crank up the CO2 even more. Take a wild guess what will happen if I raise the P from 0.1 to 2.0 and the N from 3 to 20 to start the EI.

You got to have a better solution that. One that is 100% EI also. What is it?

So here's where this thread went. I guess everybody looked at the first post and thought "What is so interesting here? The tank has ruch substrate and clean water." But we end up discussing EI which preaches exactly the opposite. This makes no sense.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

To keep this thread off-topic I think the main reason why people pick a certain method is the availability of information. In English, EI is easiest to find and although it might not work for everybody (I think the main reason is you need very high CO2, which is hard to achieve for some) it does work. The complete method (filtration etc.) is not in one post, but scattered over different threads. IMO, as long as you don't use over 3wpg, EI can work for most people. But light drives everything and CO2 is the next big factor, and it is hard to balance, but it can be done...

The whole ADA method is hard to come by, especially in English. If you really want to learn how it works, it can be found (part thanks to you niko), but when encountering algae, you'll probably find EI first.

In the Netherlands this is no different. When you encounter algae, you are most likely to find something about the NO3O4 balance of Redfield if you're looking on Dutch websites. So people start adjusting NO3 and PO4. This works not for anyone (because this tells nothing about flow, filtration, traces, CO2, light etc.) but it can be done.

About the statement that no professional aquascaper uses EI... 99% of all Dutch aquascapes use EI or a reduced (mostly still within Redfield ratio) version. Whenever you find data saying the waterparameters for NO3 and PO4 are low, than this is the data for a tank inspection of the NBAT. You receive points reduction for high NO3 and PO4 because it is not 'natural'. Don't tell anyone but everybody does a 90% water change the day before! Dosing NO3 and PO4 after the judge leaves.

But other reasons might be valid as well. For example that the ADA method is quite expensive compared to EI. Now I know what is in the bottles I make my own, so no problem anymore. The reason why I started an EI tank for example (I have an ADA based tank as well) is because I had some small angelfish in there, feeding a lot to raise them to nice large angels. ADA didn't work for me because of the amount of food, EI served me better (in that tank).

Some examples of Dutch tanks:



























As you can see, no aqua soil, just plain gravel. Some with a fertile base below, some not. Most Dutch aqua scapes are not 'trimmed' but 'topped', so a fertile base and aqua soil are making the water cloudy. So people prefer gravel with a rich water column.

Just a few reasons to not keep your water column lean and examples of 'professional aquascapes' that do not keep their water column lean.


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## 1077 (Nov 7, 2011)

Niko,,
I do not believe you are stupid, but you do appear to very much resemble the signature following your post's.
It is not a very endearing quality for those who are interested in seeking more knowledge when they must first try to extract your resentment,frustration,for all but your own belief's in an effort to learn about your particular method.
I am taking down a soil tank this coming weekend, and am willing to follow your suggestion's in detail so that I might learn another method other than that which i currently employ in other tank's.
Please see my tank spec's and advise on how you would proceed.
Tank is..
29 U.S gal
No CO2
2X 17 watt T8 bulbs 
Filtration Aquaclear 70
Have accesss to top soil,sand,inert gravel.
Tank has run successfully for two year's with sand over topsoil,catlitter, 1/3 EI dosing once a week or two,50 % water change each week or every two week's.
Plant's are all low light anubia's,crypt's,val's,watersprite,pennywort.
Resident's are 20 cardinal tetra's,8 coral red pencil fish,approx 100 Cherry shrimp which will be returned to the tank after new set up complete.
Please share step by step what you believe will produce same,better result's than that which I have observed for last two year's,and I shall follow without deviation.
I await you'r suggestion's and will report any improvement's,dissapointment's with the tank over two year's.
must say in honesty that I have been completely happy with this tank and Tom Barr's NON CO2 method, but would welcome a new method to view/expierience, along with previous Walstad method,mineralized Soil method, Dry start method, and inert gravel I have thus far tried.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Niko, your grasping. You seem to be in the camp that the 'E' in EI stands for Excessive. EI could be alot of things to different setups and yes it can get close to ADA type dosing, but it doesn't have to be. Those setups are still EI, as well as my own dosing. You make it seem like no tank is O.K. with EI, so what is the downside to my setups. In addition to EI, I only turnover my water 1x/hr sometimes. They are crystal with no noticeable algae. Large flow probably isn't bad, but why would you need that long-term if most of the biofilter is in the tank. Fish only setups with large fish, yes, a tornado is best. 

You would laugh or cry if you knew how I dosed my tanks. I take a one gallon empty water jug. Estimate the gallons of fish tanks I have, pour in dry ferts in estimated proportions fill it up with water and then dump 50% of the jug into my biggest tank since it makes up approx. 50% of my total water volume and divide the rest into my smaller tanks 'estimating' the percent they would make up of all my tanks. And that's it. :lol:

It's lifestyle and Yo-han saying exposure has alot to do with it, but either way these different methods works once you learn your setup. Everyone does things differently, BTW an example, Oliver Knott uses a UV most of the time. Does that mean we all need one.


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## Dejlig (Jan 20, 2013)

niko said:


> So, back to my original question:
> *What makes that tank on the picture grow such amazing plants without anything being added to the water? *


I wouldn't mind getting an answer to this question. Has it been decided that the substrate is the reason?


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Dejlig said:


> I wouldn't mind getting an answer to this question. Has it been decided that the substrate is the reason?


Rich substrate, young tank, good maintenance, low light = OK growth, no algae


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

House you win.

Anybody that has some experience running planted tanks ends up estimating their dosing looking at the plants. You end up having a feel for the amounts you need to add and when to add them. So indeed we all use EI. Wow. I am humbled.

The "excessive" part that I think EI preaches: Yes, I do think people see EI as "maintaining certain concentrations". You can see that in many posts from many different people. But of course I read them wrong. What everybody means is that they have folowed EI to the "T" and have indeed found that concentrations X and Y are a must. That is what those posts must be about and I am wrong. Then Tom comes and introduces EI+AquaSoil. Now ADA is wrong. Most people have no clue about ADA's method but it is wrong. Sorry, I mean "not the only method" so Tom felt he had to tweak it and possibly improve it. You don't need to make sure your N is 1 or less and your P is very low. Because everybody knows that is EI is about meeting your plants needs. Plants in Japan are plants in Japan and we don't care about them. And who can deny - Amano uses only certain kinds of plants. But makes the tanks look so good that we forget he is cheating. We here like other, better kind of plants, a variety, rare stuff. Something that must have EI or else!

And here is another thing I have to get used to: Every single tank with EI is OK. If it is not then you are doing something wrong. EI is great, Tom is #1, and you are doing something wrong. Look how many people have wonderful tanks with EI! What they call EI maybe but hey, it is EI!

Yo-han,

So what did people in Holland people do before 2005? Something that was not EI I guess. Then Tom came by and 99% of the Dutch aquascapers converted to EI?

Those pictures you show are simply amazing. Anyone will tell you that in such tanks there is no way you can have low N and low P. Now please tell me did tanks like that existed somewhere in Holland before Tom Bar was born? What did people called the method of running a tank like that (if it existed)?

I am now inclined to believe a Russian individual. That is scary. He maybe a communist for all I know. I'm talking about the guy named Ruslan that had arguments with Tom on his and other forums some years ago. So that Ruslan guy said once that Tom did not invent EI. He said that there was information about that on thekrib before EI came to the light brought to you by heavy research and experience. I guess modern planted tank folk do not even know what thekrib is. Ok, this point is lost anyway because EI could not have existed before Tom and who the hell cares about some old, funky green colored, all text website from a 1,000 years ago. And thank goodness the Ruslan guy is not posting stupid commie stuff anywhere any more.

I hear constantly that the ADA method is expensive. I see people buying the tanks, some AquaSoil and some even buy ADA lights. Then they get resourceful and make themselves a nice particle board stand covered with laminate. Get glassware for cheap. And some kind of filter. I guess at that point things start to feel expensive so the reasonable thing to do is to go EI. Partly because information about the ADA method is nowhere to be found in English. But mainly because EI is used by many people. Since 2005. It is "easy" and it is "CHEAP"! As some of you may know I used to import rare fish and I will tell you once again - it was not uncommon to exchange 3 to 8 e-mails with someone that wanted a $0.50 - $1.00 discount on a $20 order. Planted tank folk love cheap. So I think but I maybe wrong about that too.

Dejlig,

We do not have a good explanation why that small tank worked so well. The thing is the plants were not growing slowly. So the light could not have been called "low". My bet is on the shallow water - the tank is only 8" tall. The light penetrates very well. Plus the rich substrate, the good distribution of CO2, and the low KH which allows for fast and easy saturation with CO2. Does all of that guarantee a tank to run like that on the picture every single time. I do not think so.

As you see - not a very good explanation. That is why people try to find blanket approaches. EI in discussion here is one of them. Maybe. Because it looks like different things that people do are called EI.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

niko said:


> And here is another thing I have to get used to: Every single tank with EI is OK. If it is not then you are doing something wrong. EI is great, Tom is #1, and you are doing something wrong. Look how many people have wonderful tanks with EI! What they call EI maybe but hey, it is EI!


I think this is the same for the ADA method as well. Hundreds of people are able to run a perfectly balanced, 'algae free' tank following this method. When you do have an algae infested tank, you are doing something wrong. (maybe your NO3 or PO4 is too high -> more WC, maybe CO2 too low -> increase CO2 etc.) Nothing different than EI, the difference is ADA puts all the nutrients in the substrate and makes you worry about high NO3 and PO4 in the water column, EI makes you worry about low CO2 and if nothing else works too high light!



niko said:


> Yo-han,
> 
> So what did people in Holland people do before 2005? Something that was not EI I guess. Then Tom came by and 99% of the Dutch aquascapers converted to EI?
> 
> Those pictures you show are simply amazing. Anyone will tell you that in such tanks there is no way you can have low N and low P. Now please tell me did tanks like that existed somewhere in Holland before Tom Bar was born? What did people called the method of running a tank like that (if it existed)?


About the pre-EI times. Most Dutch people used Redfield ratio's way before than. Quite low in the beginning (0.1:1 - 0.5:5 letting it never hit zero) When more light demanding plants came on the marked, it was hard with low nutrients and they raised it to 1:10-2:20 or maybe some even higher, getting into the EI ballpark. They had to because most Dutch used (and still do use) only gravel, with maybe some peat and rusty nails below (you can probably find this on thekrib too ). Some experimented with laterite or clay, but with the Dutch trimming methods (topping) this was messy.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

ADA has finally published some data on nutrient levels in their substrates and liquid ferts.

http://www.adana.co.jp/en/products/performance/FLASH/index.html


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## TarantulaGuy (Apr 15, 2009)

I've read both this thread and the thread it came from, since they've started. The only thing I want to comment on is the casual mentions of the Redfield ratio. This continues to boggle my mind. The redfield ratio is for a marine system, basically an open system. You know, the big blue wet thing, aka the ocean. It in no way whatsoever is meant to apply to a freshwater aquarium, nor should it. I don't understand people who try to make it work in a freshwater, closed system.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

And where in Nature we find what Tom Barr preaches? 
Water loaded with nutrients? Nowhere.
Where in Nature we find CO2 saturating the water to the max. like Tom Barr advises? Nowhere.

Redfield is not going to make your tank pristinely clean. Nor is EI. Nor is PPS. Nor is ADA.

Without proper understanding of how everything works together we are just shooting the breeze. I say that because since the time of that discussion I had yet another experience of a tank that not only does not develop any algae at all but actually self cleans and grows. P is 5, N is 1, there are no other added nutrients. The tank leaked and I dumped everything that was in it in another, brand new tank. Guess what happened? Two weeks in the new tank now: The same thing - zero algae, none, zilch, nada. Plants grow. Mulm that covered all plants is now completely disappeared, vanished, evaporated. Where did it go? I have changed 20% of the water two times in two weeks. Substrate is 10 years old Fluorite (inert from day 1 no matter what Seachem tells you.)

That tank does not fit in anyone's method, "method", or personal agenda to promote themselves. It fits with what Nature can do and does. The very thing we never discuss. The very thing we can't even start discussing because we don't even know where to start. The very thing Tom Barr should be talking about if he stopped having a big head. If he knew what to say that is.

So what do you, blind EI believers, suggest I do to my tank to fix it cause it ain't right as it is, isn't it? Jack up the N, the Mg:Ca, the CO2, change 50% water once a week?

I will appreciate a no answer. Don't even try. There isn't one. Noone has one.


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## TarantulaGuy (Apr 15, 2009)

Tangent rant: 
The only answer is that every system is different. I have 2 main tanks, and a 3rd I just set up a couple weeks ago. One is a 29 gallon, "high tech", one is a 10 gallon "low tech" and the third is a 20 long with no set future yet, just a couple cherry barbs and a fire eel (who I think is still in there....). The 29 is run on basically an EI system. And I will be the first to admit that I can grow some great algae. I can also grow some great plants though. I like it because it gives me methods to tinker with plants and see quick results. The 10 gallon has a school of CPD's, and a few surviving cherry shrimp, some dwarf puffers, and a now diminishing population of snails. The fish are happy, the plants are very happy, and the tank runs virtually algae free. I don't do a damn thing to this tank, except scoop out duckweed every week or 2. I have a significant amount of mulm in the bottom of the tank, but it doesn't seem to hurt anything. The only real thing I do to this tank is feed with fish food. It doesn't even have a real filter, I have a small marineland bio wheel that runs without the bio wheel or filter pad. It just slowly circulates some water. So, there is very, very little water movement, no ferts, decently high light, no CO2, and no water changes, almost ever. Lots of organic matter floating around and in the substrate. By all accounts this tank should farm algae like you've never seen before. But there isn't any. I have a very happy red melon sword, chain sword grows like mad, cabomba does alright, it'll even grow HC that just floats in the water column spreading out into a mat. It's a fun tank, but defies explanation. It also is not a "natural" tank because no system in nature operates like it. Both tanks are great, and both suit my needs that I have for them. There is no right system to run a tank. 
/tangent

Back to the redfield thing. The ratio doesn't even apply to freshwater. No point at all in trying to make it fit. Nothing we do in aquarium keeping is "natural." Nothing. I keep fish tanks, I keep dart frogs, salamanders, a couple tortoises, snakes, etc. None of it is truly "natural." We like it to *look* natural, but that's as far as hobbyists are generally willing to go. Because they're all closed systems. Nature isn't. That's all there is to it. When we try and add ferts into a system, it's not because we're trying to replicate nature. It's because we want healthier plants than what we would normally find in nature, with faster growth, and generally better colors. EI is just one way of trying to maximize plant growth. Natural systems are never maximized, there is always a limiting factor, that's just basic ecology. What we strive for in aquatic plant keeping is to not have any limiting factors, so inherently most of what we do falls outside the box of "natural." And don't get me wrong, while I do like EI, and have tried PPS, I don't believe either of them is the "right" way to go. Our scientific understanding of plants is very, very lacking. If I learned anything from my plant physiology course I took, it was that. There's simply too much we don't yet know to be able to firmly say anything is the "only" way to do it in this hobby. As our understanding of physiology grows, so will the evolution of the way we take care of plants. I have a "aquatic plant encyclopedia" style book written in the 70's by 2 very knowledgeable people, but most of what they say in there, if it was said today, would get giggles from people. The hobby evolves, and that's what makes it fun. And the way the hobby evolves is experimentation with different systems. That's why EI is important, and PPS pro, and Amano. Every system needs tinkering with and experimentation, and through that the hobby will hopefully evolve itself, and improve itself. 

Just my two cents.


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