# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Ich and Nitrite/Ammonia Spike



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I noticed some white specks on my Rams which I can only guess is the beginnings of ich. I tested the water and there's definetly some ammonia and the nitrite is off the chart (5+ ppm). Aside from a massive water change, should I treat the fish for ich in the tank, or change the water and see if things improve? Should I treat the fish in the same tank they're in or set up a hospital tank? Also, can I use something like "Prime" or "Ammo-Lock" to detoxify the nitrite and ammonia in a planted tank?

-ricardo


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Hi Rick,

I would recommend Prime, to instantly remove the ammonia and detoxify the nitrites.

Prime will not keep the nitrites away, it depends on the biofiter to help. The biofilter in this tank, if the tank is cycling is not set up.

Keep doing water changes until the water parameters are safe for the fish.

Ich can be treated with increasing the temperature. BUT do not do this, in this tank, because ammonia toxicity increases with water temperature.

If you have a QT can you move all the fish to it, you cn then treat for ich safely.

At the same time if no fish are in this new tank, raise the temp to quicken the cycle of the ich.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks for your suggestions Endlersmom... The tank has no filter except for the plants. I'm thinking of adding the Prime, but my question is, will the plants still be able to remove the ammonia and nitrite after I add it? The fish are in this tank and I will raise the temp in the tank when the ammonia reads 0. What temp should I raise the tank to? Diana said before that a Nitrite spike in a newly set up natural tank is normal, my concern this time is that the levels are so high... I changed just over 50% of the water about an hour ago and both the ammonia and nitrite levels are a bit lower....

-ricardo


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Do not worry about the plants. The plants will be able to use up nutriants.

The fish need good water. Concentrate on getting the ammonia and nitrite down.

Keep doing water changes, until the values are reduced.

Do a google search for info on heat and ich. Off hand, I do not know the exact number.

Remember to adjust the water very slowly.

dataguru has some good info, check out these links.

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/FishInfo.html#WaterQuality

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/FishInfo.html


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nitrite and ammonia should be zero for health of the fish. Make sure your testkits are working. Do one test with just tapwater to compare with the aquarium water.

If you want to know how I cured ich without using chemicals, write me at my personal e-mail:

[email protected]

I'll send you the article (as a Word attachment) that TFH published earlier this year.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Hi All! Diana, thanks again for the article... I don't have an extra tank w/ a mature filter that I could use for your ich-removing technique as my 20 gallon is currently housing some juvenile N. brichardis that I'm just keeping till my next local aquarium club meeting for some breeder points... That's not for another couple of weeks though... In your article you mention the use of a filter cartridge attached to your powerhead. Which filter cartridge is that? I'm thinking of adding it to my 30gal just to get rid of some suspended particles that may or may not be breaking-down plant/fish matter that may (or may not) be contributing to my high ammonia and nitrite... I think I'll end up treating w/ meds first to see if that helps (can I do that in a planted tank?)....

Now, I'm at a bit of a loss for what to do... I want to get rid of the ich, but also want to get rid of the circumstances that are making the fish susceptible to it in the first place (ie, their compromised immune system due to high ammonia and nitrites, which are lower than they were a week ago, but still there). So, my questions are, should I wait until the ammo and nitrite are at 0 and then treat for ich? Or, should I start treating for ich right away, even though the stress factors that are making the fish susceptible to it are still present? I've added Prime to detoxify the nitrites and hopefully remove the ammonia, but should I also be making water changes, or should I not so plants can get settled and start using up the excess nutrients? When have made water changes, the ammo and nitrite read 0 or close to it, but by the end of the day, are up again. Endlersmom suggested making water changes until parameters read 0 and I was inclined to do this, until I started to wonder if it's best to just let the plants get settled and do their thing. Now, all that being said, the fish appear to be doing just fine, interestingly enough....

*sigh* I just don't know....

-ricardo


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Now that your fish have the disease, it doesn't matter what your water parameters are. You have to treat the disease.

I used the "Quick Filter" cartridge attached to the Aqua Clear 301 powerhead. See the earlier AquaBotanic folder (started April 27, 2004) entitled "Filters, Ich, and Turbidity".

I've got this filter on all of my tanks now.


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

I invested in a small UV sterilizer from aquabid and have used it successfully to treat/get rid of ich with no fish losses. All of my tanks so far are less than 55g so I was able to get away with a small UV unit. Since I began using the "el natural" method I don't use any kind of medications and have even rescued a few "sick" fish that within a couple of weeks were healthy and happy in the "natural" environment. The only problem I have these days is that it seems that I can't prune fast enough!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dear Erin,

Thanks for heartening post about how well your tank is doing.

For treating and preventing fish diseases, I am a _big_ fan of UV sterilizers (they saved my fish from dying of Fish TB).

A UV sterilizer could cure ich (by killing infectious Ich swarmers in the water before they attached to the fish).


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok, so I've had some successes and some continued problems in my 30 gal which has been set up for about 2.5 weeks now....

The nitrites are finally under control... today I tested 0 nitrite for the first time and about .10 ppm ammonia. Nitrate is also quite low registering less than my test kit scale shows, but more than 0.

I finally had to treat the tank w/ meds (maracide) to get rid of the ich. I first tried raising the temp, but then broke the heater when I changed the water w/out unpluging the heater and the replacement I had did not get the water warm enough. In any case, the ich appears to be going away... However, all is not totally well for the rams.

It appears that the male has some fungus growing on him now. The female also appears to have fungus and is now laying on a val leaf at the top of the tank rather listlessly. Her tail fin looks a bit ragged too. Looking closely it looks to be a bit stringy so I'm going to guess that it's Columnaris "body fungus" (a bacteria) according to my Mardel Freshwater Disease Chart... The male has white patches in addition to the white ich spots... The female looks a bit bloated too so I'm wondering if she also has dropsy.... At this point I'm thinking about treating w/ Maracyn and Maracyn II, both by Mardel. Does anybody know if these are ok to use w/ plants? Does anybody have any other recommendations?

As for the plants themselves, they appear to be doing well. Some of the val leaves are dying, but there is some new growth as well. The red rubin sword is putting out about 2 new leaves a week. The crypts have some melting leaves but is also putting out new growth. As a matter of fact, everything is growing pretty well. Including the algae... I have some algae on the glass which is really hard to scape off (small round "dots")... should I leave it or fight it? Also, there is some algae growing on most of the plants. It's green and about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch long. Seems to be growing on the plants that are receiving the most amount of light. Should I just leave it alone and assume that it will dissappear as the plants get established or should I try to remove it? My gut feeling is to leave it alone, that it will all work itself out in the end.... Once I throw in the hornwort and the water sprite and salvinia cover up more of the surface, I'm guessing the algae won't stand a chance! Am I right in that?

Well, that's my update for now. Thanks to everyone who has chimed in with tips and encouragement. While I've had some difficulties and frustrations with this first (second, actually) natural setup, I know that in a few months everything is going to look great and I'm going to be able to stop fussing/testing/fretting... I can't wait! Fish keeping is a tough hobby for those of us who are impatient!

Uh oh, I think I'm gonna have to euthanize that ram as she is NOT looking well....









-ricardo


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

Please, please look into a small UV sterilizer! You will have much better luck than you have had with meds. Try E-bay & Aquabid to find a used one. You will probably need a small powerhead as well to power it. In the long run I believe you will be happier and so will you fish. Best of luck!


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I had started to look at UV sterilizers and found most of them too expensive. I looked again after you post, and found the Jebo 9W Sterilizer... do you think this one would work? It comes w/ a powerhead and everything and it's fairly inexpensive so I think I might give it a shot... what do you think?

-ricardo


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

I think that will work great for you. Mine is an 8 watt and I have used it on my 29g w/no problems. My only advise is to only use it while you are having trouble. As soon as everyone is happy & healthy again, take the sterilizer off as it will clear out good stuff that the plants need as well. Best of luck to you!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by rick6805:
> Ok, so I've had some successes and some continued problems in my 30 gal which has been set up for about 2.5 weeks now....
> 
> It appears that the male has some fungus growing on him now. The female also appears to have fungus and is now laying on a val leaf at the top of the tank rather listlessly. Her tail fin looks a bit ragged too. Looking closely it looks to be a bit stringy so I'm going to guess that it's Columnaris "body fungus" (a bacteria) according to my Mardel Freshwater Disease Chart... The male has white patches in addition to the white ich spots... The female looks a bit bloated too so I'm wondering if she also has dropsy.... At this point I'm thinking about treating w/ Maracyn and Maracyn II, both by Mardel. Does anybody know if these are ok to use w/ plants? Does anybody have any other recommendations?
> ...


Where did you buy the fish? I don't think that the Maracyn antibiotics, given at recommended dose, will hurt the plants. But don't be surprised if the fish die despite your efforts. Fish with multiple problems doesn't sound good.

As to algae, I would go with your instincts. The new plants, assuming that they actually grow, should help out.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Yeah, I have that feeling about the ram (I had to euthanize the female last night







) It's interesting that he seems otherwise healthy... we'll see. Once I'm done medicating if things don't get better then I'll run the UV sterilizer... One question, after medicating I was going to add some charcol to my filter but, well, I don't have one... just a powerhead to circulate water (though I am picking up an AquaClear Quick Filter this week to get rid of some of the debris.) Anyway... can I just hang a media bag with the charcol in it somewhere in the tank? Has anybody done this? How'd you hang it? I was hoping that this would also get rid of any excess iron that might be helping out my algae.

Ammonia and nitrite are both 0 today! Yay! So hopefully, I won't have too many more problems with the fish... (you can't see me, but I just knocked on my wooden desk... please do so too!)

-ricardo

PS Here's a pic of the tank. I took some rocks out that were on the right as I didn't want the dead space trapping junk and spoiling the water even more... Also, I wanted the room to grow more plants to help with the overall tank health and look.

PPS Jane: that's your sprite there behind and to the left and right of the driftwood. Thanks again!

EDIT: Oops! Forgot the pic!


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

The tank is looking very nice, Ricardo. Sorry to hear that the female Ram didn't make it. 

I recently used some charcoal to help get rid of algae in a tank without a filter or any water movement. I put the charcoal in a netting bag and pegged the bag to the side of the tank with plastic clothes pegs. It worked just fine. 

From Alex.


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