# Multiple algae problems.



## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

I have a 10 gallon tank that's been set up since June 2005 and until about a month ago, I was only troubled with diatoms and a short BGA infested period. I'm dosing Flourish Excel per bottle instructions (I sort of forgot to do it for probably about two weeks, though). Nothing else, no CO2 or additional fertilizer. Water changes are 50% per week. Plants and critters in the tank are in my signature.

NH3/4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 5
pH: 7.8
GH: 100 mg/L
KH: 75 mg/L

Now algae's going wild. I can't even identify it all. There's definitely BGA, diatoms are still around unless there's another type of brown coloured algae, there's green spot on the glass along with some other brownish stuff that's hard to scrape off unless the diatoms are growing on the green spot(!), a _very_ black algae covering the rocks and some of the plants (easily scrubbed off rocks and leaves), some sort of hard to scrub off white stuff on the glass, another type of white stuff that resembles cotton very, very thinly spread on the glass...

I'll provide pictures later tonight or tomorrow.

Should I just get the full compliment of NPK and trace elements and start dosing, or is there an easier way to go about this? The brown junk is covering the few leaves my HC is managing to keep alive, and that's the plant I want most to grow... I'm not sure why the BGA came back.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

How much light? What is your phosphate level?

I would suspect that most people only get HC to grow well with relativley high light levels. With that kind of lighting you almost always need to supplement CO2 to keep the algae managable. You really can't do one without the other. The other plants in your list seem to be relatively low-light plants.

Most people on the forum advocate at least 10 and most would recommend 20 ppm NO3. With this you'll need PO4 levels between 1 and 2 ppm. Also, K should be provided in some form. Most people supply it by dosing KNO3. Once you've got the macros down, you'll need a good micro plan. If you're not interested in investing a ton in top-end test kits and don't mind doing some water changes the EI method is hard to beat. My only advice about what you read on Tom Barr's site is to carefully consider your lighting levels when deciding on frequency of dosing. Most of the recommendations "out there" are for high-light tanks - something you'd only get on a 10 gallon with about 4-5 wpg with quality CF's and top-notch reflectors. Your tank will likely need less unless your lights are really cranking it out.

Really though, I think the thing that would help the most is to augment CO2. I tried every manipulation of NPK and micros imaginable and didn't see the algae stop growing until I got serious about CO2. It's not required, especially on setups with low light levels, but then HC isn't likely to thrive.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> How much light?


Knew I forgot something!

I have two 10 watt mini compact fluorescents, 6500k over the tank. It's pretty bright.



> What is your phosphate level?


That I don't have. I keep stalling on getting that test kit. 



> I would suspect that most people only get HC to grow well with relativley high light levels. With that kind of lighting you almost always need to supplement CO2 to keep the algae managable. You really can't do one without the other. The other plants in your list seem to be relatively low-light plants.


It's growing, actually. _Slowly_, but it is. Just whatever emerges from the gravel (it's growing underneath the gravel, even) gets covered in brown muck.



> If you're not interested in investing a ton in top-end test kits and don't mind doing some water changes the EI method is hard to beat.


That's what I wanted to do. I do 50% weekly water changes anyway.

I've seen the prices of the better test kits... I'm not _that_ invested in this hobby.



> My only advice about what you read on Tom Barr's site is to carefully consider your lighting levels when deciding on frequency of dosing. Most of the recommendations "out there" are for high-light tanks - something you'd only get on a 10 gallon with about 4-5 wpg with quality CF's and top-notch reflectors. Your tank will likely need less unless your lights are really cranking it out.


I don't really know if my tank classifies as high or low light. 10 gallons are supposed to be touchy when it comes to light, and I'm not using standard fluorescent tubes. Guess the only way to figure it out is try to grow a "high light" plant and see how it does.

My reflector is a joke, I'll just say that right now.



> Really though, I think the thing that would help the most is to augment CO2. I tried every manipulation of NPK and micros imaginable and didn't see the algae stop growing until I got serious about CO2. It's not required, especially on setups with low light levels, but then HC isn't likely to thrive.


Argh. DIY CO2 makes me cringe. The horror stories of yeast bottles blowing up have just totally turned me off the idea, and I don't have the financial resources to go with industrial CO2 tanks.

The green spot algae doesn't bother me. I don't expect to be algae free, I just want manageable algae. The black stuff (which I don't think is BBA; that doesn't grow on rocks primarily, does it?), the BGA and the brown muck that grows on the plant leaves are what make this tank look more like a toxic waste dump. Otocinclus are doing very little to control this mess, they mostly chew on the stuff that's on the rocks, they don't go on the plant leaves.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Raise your CO2 to 30 ppm.
Add KNO3 to 15 ppm.
Change 50% of the water every 3 days.

Done.



--Nikolay


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Since you are not using CO2, you may want to take a look at EI for non-CO2 tanks: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395

Notice, Tom recommends adding ferts only every week to two weeks for non-CO2 tanks. It also states that these tanks do not need water changes.

About midway through the article Tom explains why water changes on non CO2 tanks can actually cause algae due to the fluctuating CO2 levels.

Near the end of the article there are some recommendations for fertilizing a 20g tank. Simply cut these amounts in half and add them every 7-14 days, when you remember.

I have been doing this method in my 10g tank for over a year now and have only done one water change. Very minimal algae and I regularly *forget* to add ferts to this tank! This tank is so easy to maintain I almost always forget about dosing it even though it is in the same room as my computer.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, sometimes people get apples and oranges mixed up when passing out advice. There really are two very different approaches to planted aquariums. Most people on the forum keep "high-tech" tanks (meaning supernova lighting, injected CO2, etc.) Going with non-CO2 and low lighting is a different animal altogether.

Your two 10 watt lights with no reflectors is certainly no more than medium lighting at best. I'd guess it probably passes for low-medium. When plants grow slowly they're sometimes more apt to be taken over by algae. That said, there are many beautiful non-CO2 tanks out there.

You can always augment your cleanup crew with snails, SAEs, shrimp, etc. Most of my experience is with what is probably medium-high lighting (4 wpg spiral fluorescents with DIY mirror reflector) on my 46 bow. For me, I wanted the versatility of more light and ended up frustrated until I got CO2 and good test kits.

I'd follow MatPat's advice and look at Tom's stuff for low-light, no-CO2 tanks. I really doubt the HC is going to really take off though with what you have now.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'll be formulating a plan soon.

I am curious about the black algae that I mentioned. It's literally black (not just dark), comes off easily and doesn't grow on the plants. It grows on driftwood and rocks. Anyone know what this stuff is?

I picked up an Amano shrimp today, but I don't really have much for him to pick at, I think. No thread algae or anything.

I have a beef with the no water change thing. What about DOCs and other such toxic accumulations that are inevitable over time? I don't want to risk my fishes' health for the sake of a bit more CO2.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If you have a large plant mass and a low fish load the no WC thing will probably work out ok. Personally, not doing WC's would seem like tempting the aquarium gods. They're already hard enough to keep happy.

Black algae? Probably some form of BBA. It's sometimes hard to get off though. If it comes off easliy in sheets it's more likely to be BGA.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> If you have a large plant mass and a low fish load the no WC thing will probably work out ok. Personally, not doing WC's would seem like tempting the aquarium gods. They're already hard enough to keep happy.


I don't think I have either a large plant mass or a low fish load.

The puffers are messy, the otos are poop machines and the shrimp aren't exactly clean, either.

I could compromise, perhaps do larger water changes less frequently. Maybe 75% every two weeks or something.



> Black algae? Probably some form of BBA. It's sometimes hard to get off though. If it comes off easliy in sheets it's more likely to be BGA.


It's not very "brushy", it's almost like a stain. Comes off pretty easily, certainly easier than the green spot, but not in sheets. Came off my driftwood after I used a scrub brush on it and the stuff on the rocks I can scrape off with the end of my algae scraper, which is just wood.

I thought BBA prefers the plants...?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

If you feel you must do water changes just let the water sit out (age) for a day or two so that the gasses (mainly CO2) that are in it have a chance to dissipate and reach equilibrium with the atmophere. That should keep you from adding additional CO2 to your tank and confusing the plants. 

In my tanks, the BBA prefers the driftwood, rocks, gravel and equipment over the plants! The AlgaeFinder states there are between 2500 and 6000 species of Rhodophyta or Red Algae. BBA is one type of red algae. You may have a different form or maybe not a form of it at all. Take a look at the Algae Finder. It may be albe to help you ID your algae


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## acbaldwin (Nov 3, 2005)

GekkoGeck0 said:


> It's not very "brushy", it's almost like a stain. Comes off pretty easily, certainly easier than the green spot, but not in sheets. Came off my driftwood after I used a scrub brush on it and the stuff on the rocks I can scrape off with the end of my algae scraper, which is just wood.


Mildew?


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

Here are some photos of my various algae-related problems.

First, my Monosolenium tenerum.










I spent some time with it today, meaning I took it apart and tried to remove as much BGA as possible, and then fighting with the fishing line and netting for an hour to get it back on. This is what it looked like prior to that. Those thready things it sends out are total debris magnets.

This is the black algae I've been describing:










I suppose it is some sort of BBA. I did a major cleanup of the whole tank today and the stuff came off really easy with a bit of elbow grease and a coarse scrub brush.

Next, the scourge of my HC:










No idea what this is. Dead HC? Fluffy brown junk? No clue.

More HC scourges:










This is a front glass only epidemic. It also collects behind my glass thermometer. That's it. This stuff grows in tandem with the green spot, which is not bright green in my tank. More of an olive green.

Now, a picture of some of the other stuff.










The brown-green fluffy bit on the cave used to be a nice green mat of Cladophora. It has also been infested by some sort of algae. The stem plants are H. polysperma and I suspect are yellowish because of some sort of lacking nutrients, although the other plants aren't yellowing. BGA, the brown crap and I guess some BBA were attacking those stems. I think it's largely dependent on light levels. When I moved some badly covered stems from the right side of the tank to the left, most of the algae disappeared. This picture was taken after that occurrence.

The fish is one of my sweet dwarf puffers.


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