# People's all-time favorite aquascapes



## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I don't know if we've had a thread like this before, but I recently had some curiosity and wanted to hear people's opinions. It's simple, just list the names and designers of your 5 all-time favorite aquascapes like this:

(these are in no particular order)
1. Ranmastone's "Autumn"
2. Justin Law's "Walking Aoyama"
3. Harry Kwong's "Mysterious Forest"
4. Chen De Quan's Mountain Scape (Grand Prize ADA 2005)
5. Luis Navarro's Crypt Rainforest

Admittedly, I'm not sure these are my absolute top 5 favs, they're tanks I really liked for some special reason, found influential, and came to mind. It'd be too hard to try to pick the top 5 from every tank I've ever seen. Also, I decided not to include any of Amano's tanks since that would make it REALLY hard for people to remember/look up and really hard for me to pick out  

So I guess mine's more of a "5 most easily thought of and markedly influential tanks to me, that are not Amano's."

But just put whatever 5 tanks you like. I think this'd be a good learning experience in seeing what people like.

The 1 rule I'd put is to pick 5 that are not your own. That'll make it more easy to think about, and more fun.

BTW--> As a note, if I were to have included Amano's work, probably all the ones I would have picked would have been from the Nature Aquarium World series.


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

In no particular order:

Jeff Senske:









Luis Navarro:









PJ Magnin:










Anthony Gomez:










The last one is from an AquaJournal from 1996, pg 13. It is a 120 cm ADA tank filled with anubias covered driftwood sloping downward from right to left. The foreground is Glosso. The tank is stunning. However, I don't have a digital picture.

One tank that didn't quite make the top 5, probably because there are no pictures of the tank properly matured.
Andre Silvestre:










Steven, can you post pictures of your favorites? at the very least a link?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Mmm, well I thought it would be a pain in the butt if this thread got too bogged down with images. I figured most of the aquascapes we'd mentioned would be famous enough that they'd be easily known. But . . . I guess I can do links . . .

1. "Autumn Dance" @ APC
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/16120-autumn-dance.html

2. "Walking Aoyama" @ AGA
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2006.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=0&id=43

3. "Mysterious Forest" @ APC Contest
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/contest/index.php?action=showentry&id=106

4. Grand Champ 2005
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/10133-ada-aquaplant-layout-2005-top-ten.html

5. Same as the tank by Navarro you posted, though there are more mature photos available.

IMO, if people are serious about aquascaping, they should at least have looked through the majority of the really outstanding past works, or be capable of doing a bit of research if needed-- especially with the names of the creators and discriptions/titles of the pieces . . .

I'm guessing it's ok if we make this thread open to commentary on each other's favs too, neh?

Apistaeasy
1-- mmm, I think Jeff's done better. It comes off as your average ADA scape to me.
2-- I prefer the version with danios instead of rainbows
3-- PJAN's tank was obviously a standout, but I just never cared much for such flat HC, and the pieces of this layout just don't seem unified IMO. Especially the green lilies with his stem mound.
4-- Tony seems to suffer from the same problem as PJAN with HC getting too flat and uniform in his layouts. I think in contests, this tank didn't do better because it was too flat, and I'd have to agree with the judges there. The close ups from that tank though, were truly stunning. I also always love Tony's fish choices.

--I love this layout too, but I think the reason we've never seen a "mature" photo form Andre is because there is simply not enough room back there for the rotalas to really bush out and still be the height he has them at.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

1)..Law Kai Chun "Summer Dance" AGA entry #42
"Summer Dance"

2)..Mike & Jeff Senske "Dutch East Passage" ADA entry #129
"Dutch East Passage"

3)..Luis Navarro "Crypt Rainforest"
same as above....

4)..Luis Navarro "La Ceiba"
"La Ceiba"

5)..Mike Senske "Photo # 21 in their gallery at ADG"
"Photo #21 in the galleries section"


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## SUBORPHAN (Apr 20, 2006)

apistaeasy said:


> In no particular order:
> 
> PJ Magnin:


Just out of curiosity what is the name of that lotus like plant in the right of the island in the picture?


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

Steven_Chong said:


> IMO, if people are serious about aquascaping, they should at least have looked through the majority of the really outstanding past works, or be capable of doing a bit of research if needed-- especially with the names of the creators and discriptions/titles of the pieces . . .


Heh, I ended up doing all the research and looking at all the tanks last night anyways (I can't sleep at nights) Thanks anyways for posting links. (I believe links will help people understand the specific point in each tanks progression that you like most)



Steven_Chong said:


> I'm guessing it's ok if we make this thread open to commentary on each other's favs too, neh?
> 
> Apistaeasy
> 1-- mmm, I think Jeff's done better. It comes off as your average ADA scape to me.
> ...


1. I agree, I do believe Jeff has done better,but for some odd reason this 'scape has me transfixed. As I look through the ADG gallery I find beauty and peace in all the tanks, and as I click to this tank I find myself pausing for longer. I think it has to do with Jeff's take on the nature tank, and his integration of Dutch with Amano's style. This one tank seems to have the strongest nature influence, and to me seems as though Jeff's style tends to be more Dutch; this tank seems to be an anomaly in Senske aquascaping. 
2. I'd love to see that version! Unfortunately it is not posted on his site, and I can't find it elsewhere 
3,4. The juxtaposition between foreground and towering column is very appealing to me right now in my aquascaping. In addition, there is a simplicity in only using part of the "canvas" to paint the aquascape that I really enjoy. To me it shows confidence and strength without being overpowering.


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

I love FAAO's original Syrah Planura.
For its spartan-ness  , and the timeless feeling that tree creates.
Its too bad he never got around to removing the hardware for a nice picture before he changed the tank.
Of course, I like all the "wow" tanks, but I always remember this tank when I think of cool ones.









Cool thread idea, BTW!!!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

> 1. I agree, I do believe Jeff has done better,but for some odd reason this 'scape has me transfixed. As I look through the ADG gallery I find beauty and peace in all the tanks, and as I click to this tank I find myself pausing for longer. I think it has to do with Jeff's take on the nature tank, and his integration of Dutch with Amano's style. This one tank seems to have the strongest nature influence, and to me seems as though Jeff's style tends to be more Dutch; this tank seems to be an anomaly in Senske aquascaping.
> 2. I'd love to see that version! Unfortunately it is not posted on his site, and I can't find it elsewhere
> 3,4. The juxtaposition between foreground and towering column is very appealing to me right now in my aquascaping. In addition, there is a simplicity in only using part of the "canvas" to paint the aquascape that I really enjoy. To me it shows confidence and strength without being overpowering.


1. When I think "Jeff Senske" I normally think "Crypt/Moss/Anubias/echinodorus tank with great composition usually with sand and those nice green Houstan Rocks." Jeff's always loved these types of layouts, and even more now that he does aquascaping professionally and doesn't get to see the tanks often. In that regard, this layout is nothing odd, and at the start it was definitely "Senske poi" (In the style/spirit of Senske's work). The final result though doesn't have . . . well, something I can't really say what but something like a spirit/feel that I've in the past felt only from Senske's layouts. This one feels much more "Amano poi" to me. This might be partly a result of the tank being to a large degree left to its own means, and thus choosing its own direction.

2. Go to Greenstouch.com-- Jay Luto has taken the best photos of that tank that I've seen so far.
http://www.greenstouch.com/showpicture.htm?imagepath=/images/houston2006/houston2006_1.jpg

3,4. I'd be a fool to say that using negative space is bad-- it's definitely a staple practice to nature scaping style. I mean that if the shape of the scape is too flat and uniform, it'll lack visual interest. Also that IMO, super thick carpets of HC like PJAN and Tony's look "too-groomed" to the point of feeling unnatural.

Suser-- Filipe's work is very good. TBH though I never cared for the first Syrah. Second one is a good looking scape IMO. The first one-- well, it's boring looking. Flat and artificial looking too. I always found the rockwork jarring as well, not as subtle and well laid as some of his other scapes. I tend to see the first Syrah as Filipe's just playing with the idea of the moss tree and some other things, before getting the experience to make the truly stunning work in the form of Syrah's second icarnation. Well, that's the way I see it, and I'd bet Filipe never took those photos without equipment because he felt the same way about it as me.

People should feel free to comment on my picks as well-- after all, I know some of them never got the fame and glory I'd give them, ie they didn't become very popular. -_-


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

Steven_Chong said:


> 1. When I think "Jeff Senske" I normally think "Crypt/Moss/Anubias/echinodorus tank with great composition usually with sand and those nice green Houstan Rocks."
> The final result though doesn't have . . . well, something I can't really say what but something like a spirit/feel that I've in the past felt only from Senske's layouts. This one feels much more "Amano poi" to me. This might be partly a result of the tank being to a large degree left to its own means, and thus choosing its own direction.


Exactly!


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## gf225 (Mar 26, 2005)

I wondered how long it would take to see a thread like this. Well done Steven!

I'll be back with my top 5 after some thought. I know what they are, the order is harder.


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Nice thread Steven...but not so much feedback 

I don't have many favorite aquascapers, I don't like any of your TOP5 - maybe except Iwagumi layout from ADA contest 2005.

I think that lot of people (not only on this forum, i see it on most of forums which i watch) thinking to much about rules and art...people threat aquascaping like philosophy, looking for some "life rule" and forget what aquascaping shoud be. My adwise is....don't think too much, don't care what people say...just do it and be happy with it .


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## nap83 (Feb 7, 2006)

i have to agree with norbert on this one. im not kissing ass or what not but most of my favorite aquascapes are from him, even his cockatoo aquascape was astounding. a lot of people nowadays are transfixed with the "amano layouts", seeing that if they don't have one that the tank is thrashed by forum-goers. there's a lot of people in this forum that do such things or posters that critique tanks to make it look like one of their tanks redundantly that it becomes so annoying that aquascapers end up with the, of course "amano-esque" waterscape. although i agree that amano's tanks are great there's so much more work out there that compels me to do new scapes, like gnob's scapes. do what you like, have fun with it, if you like it then great, most of the prominent posters here make it seem that their tanks are like amanos so therefore you should follow them but amano actually delegated outside the niche and did his own thing. do this and you'll never go wrong.... whoa im so out of subject right now.


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

Norbert, nap83, others:

I fully agree. I also feel the "your tank is not Amano enogh" syndrome here. Well, too bad, I say. I am one of Amano's greatest fans... yet I'd never do one of his tanks, not intentionally (although I would feel honored if someone thinks I have).

Master the master, then forget the master our you'll never be a master.

As for my favs, well, many, yet not so many tanks have me transfixed. Probably because I want more natural, ecotope-like settings. I simply loved Norbert tiny Amazon Blackwater tank---it resonates with me, even more than Amano's work. Then Stephen's tank... Shore whateveriforget , which to me is no seashore but a nice rocky stream bank. As I once put it in a thread with Stephens, what I like in aquascaping is "Nature's beauty without the travel and the mosquitoes".

I don't you about others, but I feel honored to have had Amano-san as a teacher (from just looking at his work, I mean), and I feel truly grateful. I respect him greatly as my teacher, so I will use his teachings to go further my own way. Same goes for others: Stephen, Norbert, Semske, the guys at CAU, many more (many than taught me what I did NOT want in my tanks, excellent teaches they, too; no irony but gratitude)---thank you all, and I hope you like my tanks.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I would like to see some more references to specific tanks guys (just to get back on topic), but this is great discussion too. Why don't I try get us back on track by posting my own reasons/analysis for picking the 5 I did:

1- For anyone who's seen my recent work, you'll know that I'm very into aquascapes that reflects the image and feel of real places. Not necessarily like gacp in that I want to create the image of streams specifically (love his thinking on that topic btw), but I do have a strong preference for aquascapes that reflect the image/feeling of real places. Ranmastone's work is dead on here. I love the dead leaf foreground and the red stem arrangements that feels so reminiscent of a maple forest to me. The epiphytes and crypts might seem a bit out of place as they give more the impression of a tropical forest, but I've seen forests (in Japan) thick with such plants as well as maples, so it makes a strong impression on me. Actually, any layout with elements that reflect the image of a tropical forest really impress me (seeing how many of much time I've spent in similar forests in Hawaii). All I can say is that ranmastone's layout has that impression of "realism" to me.

Imo, much preferable to the rather uninspired looking "amano-esque" tanks that look "natural" but with no motif-- only fantasy, but not focused fantasy either.

2- Justin's Walking Aoyama is a layout that many were impressed with only for the photography, and it never did well in contests either. People thought of it as nothing but a boring "amano-esque" layout. Personally, I don't see anything "amano-esque" about it except that it's vaguely nature-style, and goes by the current fad of light backgrounds with ripples.

This piece's rhythem sincs with me. Like I said, I didn't necessarily have rational reasons for these layouts, but as Norbert mentioned, this is art not philosophy. I need no other reason except that this layout touches me deeply, and yes it does because it synchronizes insanely well with the beaches I've known in my childhood that are covered (just like in this layout) with bright green, low-grown shrubs.

Justin's work was based off of a stream-side somewhere in Asia. I took it as an inspiration for my own Hau Coast which was a work on a Hawaiian beach-side. Then Gacp mentioned he liked the layout because it reminds him of a swamp. Well heck, we all got to make room for others to interpret their work as they will, seeing things we don't see and going places we don't go. :heh:

3- I was rather surprised this layout didn't do better. Maybe it's that stick that people didn't like, or the unconventional pebble foreground, but I thought this layout was brilliant! Admittedly I see failings in execution, but it's so innovative, and I learned a lot from it. For instance, the tank is over-full, but still has a dynamic, multi-layered and visually complicated/interesting presentation. That's what I wanted for my own works! One of the things I learned from this tank, is that the foreground is over-rated. It can be 'sacked if need be. It's just one more layer in the pie. It's job is to make 1 layer of depth and visual interest, and for that it doesn't need to be a giant glosso field that covers the whole layout. It just needs enough room to exist, and then from there other layers can be made. Heck, in this layout with some areas of sand and some of pebbles, even the foreground, as tiny as it is, is multi-layored!! Also, this is another scape with the impression of tropical forests, and we know I have a soft spot for 'em.

4- I never really thought of this as an Iwagumi actually, Norbert. I thought this tank was brilliant because it looks so damn much like a Chinese Mountain Landscape of the kinds you seein in Chinese paintings. Brilliant! It was not the best executed tank by far, but boy was it innovative, and it spoke of a real place with real motive, not vague meaningless fantasy (again with this).

5- Luis' layout here may not be the most innovative, but there are some small innovations in it that really appeal to me. Another tropical forest-focused layout too. :heh:

In regard to the discussion about Amano, I'd have to agree that just copying is stupid. I for one though never really got the feeling that there was a pressure to make works that were Amano-esque. Maybe I don't feel the pressure because I do feel closer to the "nature school" side of things, and when there are rules I don't like-- I love breaking 'em. :heh:

No one's pressuring anyone to only make a certain type of layout, and only a fool would say Amano's the end-all of aquascaping. He's only a starting point (and not even the only one of those), and in some ways it can't be helped that he's a giant on whose shoulders many will stand on (heck I've gotten a leg up from his work myself).

The one thing I'll say about Amano's work is that while he's rarely done anything like my preference for close-to-photo-accurate-rendering of real places, and I do dislike the newere all-look-same-with-no-real-motif scapes of recent, I have to say that his older works really caught the essence and feeling of places. Sure they were sloppy, with some plants seemingly thrown in randomly or looking like nothing growing in his motif or all mixed together etc., but they somehow really caught the essence of places.

It's like if the layouts I make and mentioned are like photos, but those old Amano works are like Monets-- abstract, but capturing the motion and life of places. As I start my own serious aquascaping slowly but surely, at first I will look to render nature as perfect as possible to learn from it, but with each new layout I hope to gain something of the skill needed for this abstraction and affinity for feeling as well.

Norbert, I read you loud and clear on the idea of art needing no purpose but enjoyment. It need not carry any meaning by simple beauty, and just "don't think too much, don't care what people say...just do it and be happy with it " This is absolutely true.

It's also true that for me at least-- the thinking and philosophy _is_ fun, what makes me happy. :heh:


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

In no particular order, or comprehensive.

Norbert Sabat's _The rainforest_








http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/contest/index.php?action=showentry&id=134

Again by Norbert, _Ocean breeze_








http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/contest/index.php?action=showentry&id=61

Steven Chong _Hau Coast_








http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/33918-hau-coast-final-photos-5.html

This one by Oliver Knott, but only in the earlier stages, before the plants overwhelmed the tree stump.








http://www.pbase.com/plantella/bbstgt&page=1

Oliver's again








http://www.pbase.com/plantella/utricularia2006

Another one by the Master himself









I think this one is also by Amano himself.









Alan Chan's _Hawaii Beach_








http://www.cau-aqua.net/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=29&catid=53

This iwagumi will raise a few eyebrows  








http://www.aalborg-akvarieforening.dk/visakvarie.asp?articleid=80&menuid=2

Yet another iwagumi to blow your Amano-fuses and make you ask for assylum at ADA  








http://www.cichlids.dk/akvarier/vis/1805/
I've been to those places, it's just like that. A very rispid beauty. The tank could use HQI light to have glitterlines dancing all over and bringing the reflections off the fishes. Myself, I'd also add some moss---very sparingly---particularly on top of the tree stump (where you'd expect to find it), maybe a small stand of some small _Potamogeton_ species like _P. pusillum_ right in the water current, add a couple waterlogged leaves 'jammed' into resting places by the current, and maybe let a phylodendron send its roots into the water.

You can see I love this tank... 

-----

Hard to articulate the je ne sai quois they have. I think I can notice a few things:

Very simple, yet rich. Hence, very realistic.
Not manicured, even rather messy. Again, very realistic.
They look biologically active, growing, young. More meristematic activity than wabi-sabi.
Fishes look like they belong in there.
They look like _aquascapes_, not landscapes recreated wet.


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## FAAO (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi Steven,


Steven_Chong said:


> Suser-- Filipe's work is very good. TBH though I never cared for the first Syrah. Second one is a good looking scape IMO. The first one-- well, it's boring looking. Flat and artificial looking too. I always found the rockwork jarring as well, not as subtle and well laid as some of his other scapes. I tend to see the first Syrah as Filipe's just playing with the idea of the moss tree and some other things, before getting the experience to make the truly stunning work in the form of Syrah's second icarnation. Well, that's the way I see it, and I'd bet Filipe never took those photos without equipment because he felt the same way about it as me.


You're absolutely right about your point of view. I don't remove a word of what you said. 
I felt the same and this is the reason for not took the final pictures. The first layout was created only to study the moss growing and if I had a need to change it by other plant to recreate the tree. 
I've found the right way to add the moss on the tree and that was the secret for sucess of second attempt.

With time I'll mention my favorites scapes 

Take care,

Filipe Oliveira


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## gf225 (Mar 26, 2005)

Steven_Chong said:


> In regard to the discussion about Amano, I'd have to agree that just copying is stupid.


_Just _ copying is probably a little "stupid". I do think that it is helpful for beginners though, particularly those with little talent (I include myself there). They will choose appropriate plants, hardscape, compostion etc. Hopefully this will lead to a boost in confidence to go about creating something more individual, more innovative perhaps.

I doubt most aquascapers that do copy,_just_ copy. I hope that they would be learning a lot in the process of copying. If not, they are _then_ probably stupid.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Ah, George that comment of mine was probably insensitive and uncalled for. I didn't mean the adjective "stupid" either. Sorry for that (BTW, copy or not, talent or whatever you know there are very few who aquascape as well as you do).

I understand your opinion, and you are right of course on all points. Copying is a good learning experience, and people often have to learn basics before making their own innovations.

By the nature of this thread and discussion though, I think we're talking about the context of those who are going after the very highest level of aquascaping, and hopefully becoming the greatest aquascapers they possibly could become. In that context, copying does feel somewhat hollow-- not in the short term build of basic skills, but in the long term pursuit of excellence.

I think you know yourself that even guys who have the passion for scaping, even if they copy to learn in their first few years of scaping, they dream of after making scapes that no one else but they themselves could make.

To make a scape that one knows could not have existed without one. Really truly, no one else would have done this. That's a feeling that makes one proud.


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## nellis (May 6, 2006)

Oliver Knott's 216 liter



















Not necessarily my absolute favorite, but when I think of the words "explosive growth" I quite literally think of this tank. I also like the fact that, although Oliver carefull designed a layout, the plants decided to heed their own agenda and form their own scape. Set-and-forget... sometimes the plants' own-natures work wonders that we'll never see due to our attempts to control the scape.


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## skylsdale (Jun 2, 2004)

RedBaron's "Piece of Nature"...because it looks fairly natural (no, not Amano-nature-esque...but NATURAL) Algae was allowed to grow, substrate is a simple sand/gravel mix, plant speces are minimal and growing where they may:










See more HERE.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I want those rocks-- such a lovely green color. 

I think this scape is beautiful too, and probably didn't do as well only because of the photo being too dark . . .


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

ADA Contest, the year 2004, 5th place. Absolutely, hands down the best aquascape I've ever seen. I couldn't find a better picture on the net. You have to see it in the catalogue to fully appreciate it.

http://www.pbase.com/plantella/image/37878955


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

AaronT said:


> ADA Contest, the year 2004, 5th place. Absolutely, hands down the best aquascape I've ever seen. I couldn't find a better picture on the net. You have to see it in the catalogue to fully appreciate it.
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/plantella/image/37878955


Wow Aaron, I agree. Amano did an excellent job with that 'scape. It looks just like a flock of birds flying around a group of mountain peaks.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

apistaeasy said:


> Wow Aaron, I agree. Amano did an excellent job with that 'scape. It looks just like a flock of birds flying around a group of mountain peaks.


Oh, that's not Amano's scape. That's a conestant's scape from the 2004 contest.

That's exactly how I picture it...the flock of birds I mean.


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

AaronT said:


> Oh, that's not Amano's scape. That's a conestant's scape from the 2004 contest.
> 
> That's exactly how I picture it...the flock of birds I mean.


Woops, I saw the copyright was by Amano...shoulda looked at the Hironori Handa


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

AaronT-- I remember that scape-- stunning! That was when HC was just starting to come into popularity and I remember Amano or one of the other judges mentioning that if the maker had used glosso it would have been boring. I don't think that's true-- it's a very creative layout for its shape and impression. For my part though, I would have preferred a layout with a bit more exposed rock and perhaps some greater variation in form. This might amount to preference though because I myself prefer more visually dynamic works than simpler ones.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

The cool thing about that scape was that he did use Glosso in the foreground and then HC in the back and tops of the 'mountains' to give the illusion that they were more distant. I can't take my eyes off of that scape whenever I look at it.


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

_Piece of Nature_ is a lovely tank indeed! One new fav of mine.

As for Handa's tank, not bad at all. Although I must reject the notion of my ever seeing it as a mountain with birds flying around. Sorry, no way that impression will nest (bad pun intended) in my brain. The only birds I know that fly underwater are penguins (spheniscids, rather---true penguins are extinct), and that does not look like "Somewhere within the Antarctic Confluence..."  It *does* look like a very natural and very beautilful aquascape, without any need for fancy flooding of _land_scapes.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Oh come on gacp, stop taking everything so literally. :heh:

Stop and smell the metaphorical representation. Then once you've got it, go read some really vague poems talking about beautiful mountains but then laugh like crazy when you realize it's actually describing a woman's bossom. :heh:

BTW-- I knew "Piece of Nature" was your speed. It looks just like an Asian stream (save for the artificially clean white sand and background but you know-- nature, sans mud and mosquitoes). :heh:


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> Oh come on gacp, stop taking everything so literally. :heh:
> 
> Stop and smell the metaphorical representation. Then once you've got it, go read some really vague poems talking about beautiful mountains but then laugh like crazy when you realize it's actually describing a woman's bossom. :heh:


What I wonder is, why everybody in aquascaping seems so eager for their aquascaping to resemble anything _but_ an aquascape? There is a saying in the computer world: "If you want x, you know where to find it.", standard response to people who wants some piece of software to do something the creators never meant it to. If you want mountains... well, you know where to find them---why try to metaphoricaly put them into a glass box full of water at any cost? 

Want an aquascaping challenge? A real AQUA-scape worth recreating, on of sublime watery beauty, and that noboy has done before (AFAIK)?

Well, this is something I plan to attempt since I first saw the real thing: Podostemmaceans, torrent plants, in an non-jap-style iwagumi, with water flowing at > 1 m/s. They come in many shapes ("habits"), but the one I mean are like streamlined leathery green corals. Now the unique beauty, something that has nothing to envy to a mountainscape: the standing-wave-cum-turbulence dance of bubbles in the water current. I mean, the bubbles are the 3rd aquascaping leg that supports the beauty of this tank along with the torrent plants and the rocks iwagumi.

I dare you all... :boxing: Takers, anyone?



Steven_Chong said:


> BTW-- I knew "Piece of Nature" was your speed. It looks just like an Asian stream (save for the artificially clean white sand and background but you know-- nature, sans mud and mosquitoes). :heh:


I do make sense? Oh my!!! :heh:

Yes, superb tank. Only irritant for me is the tenellus: I *KNOW* there are no _Echinodorus_ spp. anywhere near SEA, _Echinodorus_ are Neotropical typicals. I _know_ this, so I cannot ignore it, it nags my mind, it's too far-flung.

Oh, I am no a stupid purist, i.e. I have cardinals with a local Buenos Aires huge _Eleocharis_ sp. and Buenos Aires glass-shrimp, species these which are not to be found in the Upper Río ***** & Upper Orinoco region. Yet, very similar ones do occur there, so even if someone can tell at least they don't clash with the rest of the community. Even the _Poecilia wingei_, which are from Campoma, VZ, at least are Neotropical and have close relatives living with the cardinals. Tenellus and rasboras are quite a different story. Again, just a minor irritant for a truly superb tank, and perhaps this very hight quality of the aquascape is what makes this point so irritant for me.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Gacp, you know that not all high level nature-inspired aquascapes are of mountains (or big terrestrial scenes). There's a fair number of river/biotope inspired scapes also. Amano's entire Branchy Wood + Ferns + Moss genre could be said as all being able to represent actual streams. No reason why ALL of us should have to just do that though-- no reason to NOT to do forests or mountains etc. 

Many artists will depict the thing they have the most passion for and connection to. You must realize this is true in all art forms, not just ours.

Many of them have not spent their lives under water as fish. You'd also have to realize you are not the majority here-- most people ARE capable of appreciating a metaphorical representation, and don't need perfect creation of a logical scene, and are quite happy with getting the feeling, the gist, the spirit-- perfect detail even can make a piece less interesting, less captivating for many audience members.

As to your comment of knowing where the mountains are so why need to keep them in a box-- as an example, I'm not in a position to fly back to Japan and see the bamboo covered mountains I love so much (which BTW only look the way they do in my aquascape during summer anyway) any time I like. However I DO really enjoy feeling their presence, the spirit of the place, every time I wake up and look at my glass box.

People also like aquascapes in part because they can make the aquarium look and feel huge-- overwhelming. Makes practical sense that a mountain would be a loved theme when a mountain is so much bigger than a stream is. Forests are bigger than streams are. The bigger the subject, the bigger the sense of place generally (all other factors being equal).

Now, we've had this exact discussion (or close enough really) multiple times on different threads. I'm aware no one's mind is going to change about the subject. But I can't help myself because you keep bringing the subject back up. :heh:

BTW-- I don't find bubbles all that important to aquascaping . . . it's something to consider, whether to include them or not in the photos (ie, what time of day do you photograph?), but saying it's a third leg might be a bit much . . . more like on the same level as whether or not to use a blow dryer during the photoshoot.


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

Oh, I'm not against metaphor and finding inspiration in landscape. As I said, many paths in the garden... I am not trying to belittle anyones efforts, or taste, or make converts.

I do wonder, though, why it seems to be _such_ a big theme in aquascaping. I mean, why bother with water at all, and not find _x_ in miniature exes, that is in penjing, bonsai, karesansui, &c. Reminds me of early cinema: fixed-camera, single-shot filmed stage performances on screen.

Then, along came Eisenstein and the others...

About the bubbles: that's the whole point! The watery beauty, uniquely aquatic, something you cannot find in a flowerbed, or a karesansui, or bonsai. And not even widespread in natural aquascapes, but something special, unnusual... I guess Nipponese would say "kami"? Something of that belongs in this kind of aquatic environment and not in others.

Have you ever seen such a thing? Go out and find a fast flowing stream (and accept the distance and mud and mosquitoes as the price of truly unique aquascaping inspiration), and LOOK at that beauty, a beauty you can find nowhere else. Even if you don't find podostemmaceans, just look at the dance of the bubbles, how they animate the place, how they reflect and diffract the light. You may be---just may be---, presented with a fleeting flash of silvery light as a fish darts in the current from one ebb to another...

Oh my, I will, _somehow,_ try to capture that ASAP.

And, oh, that's just _one_ aquascape, just _one_ kind of water beauty. There are many many more, too many of them I've never seen, too many I've never known of, too many I---like many others---only have the chance to see as the audience of a master's aquascape. 

Now, that's what I would consider my favorite aquascapes---the one chance for many of us to see these sights, even for those who do dare distance, heat, cold, mud, and the mosquitoes.

BTW: I know very well how to use metaphors, and use them all too often, in poetry. I also know how _not_ to use them... and then I write better poetry :heh: Some of of the best poetry about the women breasts describe female breasts, and not mountains. Go figure. :boxing:


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## C.ton (Nov 6, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> Gacp, you know that not all high level nature-inspired aquascapes are of mountains (or big terrestrial scenes). There's a fair number of river/biotope inspired scapes also. Amano's entire Branchy Wood + Ferns + Moss genre could be said as all being able to represent actual streams. No reason why ALL of us should have to just do that though-- no reason to NOT to do forests or mountains etc.
> 
> Many artists will depict the thing they have the most passion for and connection to. You must realize this is true in all art forms, not just ours.
> 
> ...


good write upartyman:


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I'm not a poem guy-- that's a joke son-- another joke since I doubt I'm older than you. :heh:



> I mean, why bother with water at all, and not find x in miniature exes, that is in penjing, bonsai, karesansui, &c. Reminds me of early cinema: fixed-camera, single-shot filmed stage performances on screen.


I've written about it before, but IMO, there's value even in having multiple art forms depicting the same thing. The same mountain scape can inspire a million different photos, paintings, poems, bonsai, gardens and yes aquascapes-- and all of those can inspire a million other works based on those works-- and yet they all have value. They all are special, because no two art forms and no two people will capture something the same way.

A bonsai designer and I could go with each other to see the same river, on the same day-- and a season later, we'd have two completely different and special works of art. Heck, I could go to the same river, and later do an ikebana, a painting, and an aquascape all about that same place on that same day, and they'd all be completely unique and special pieces.

Different art forms have different limits, different room for variations, and different strengths and weaknesses. Even art forms as similar as terrarium building and aquascaping, the species are different and the atmosphere of the pieces are different. Each's existance is invaluable.

I realize that one could draw a parallel betwene different art forms and different artists, and say that "just like all artists' work are different but we still draw conclusions about which one is better, so why would art forms different?"

However, I don't really want to go there-- it pisses too many people off to claim that photography is superior to painting, or sculpting steel is better than sculpting clay. You might be willing to think of bonsai as superior to aquascaping at making a miniature mountain-- I'm not willing to go there. They're too different, with different perspectives.

I'd say art forms are similar enough to influence each other, but too different for people to say one is better than the other-- because it's a completely different way of doing things.



> Have you ever seen such a thing? Go out and find a fast flowing stream (and accept the distance and mud and mosquitoes as the price of truly unique aquascaping inspiration), and LOOK at that beauty, a beauty you can find nowhere else. Even if you don't find podostemmaceans, just look at the dance of the bubbles, how they animate the place, how they reflect and diffract the light. You may be---just may be---, presented with a fleeting flash of silvery light as a fish darts in the current from one ebb to another...
> 
> Oh my, I will, somehow, try to capture that ASAP.
> 
> ...


I also have a deep appreciation and sensitivity for such types of scenes-- I don't think there could be a serious aquascaper who didn't.

However, you know that while particular types of beauty might be unique to certain sites, feelings of inspiration and beauty as deep and meaningful-- and yes different-- are found from the mountains, the valleys-- everywhere. Even a patch of twining weeds on the side of the street can inspire such feelings. Even a single tree growing in the middle of a bustling grey city-- for the man who stopes and puts his hand on its trunk and feels the comforting bite of its bark against its skin, takes in the blue green color of its leaves that sparkle even greater to his eyes in the over cast air of the city-- can inspire deep feelings.

And that's one tree in one part of the city-- not to mention a different tree in the same city or on a mountain or stream, coast, dessert edge, meadow, yada yada yada . . .

There's an unlimited number of subjects out there, and no reason not to pick the one you love the most and use the art form you love the most-- no matter what form and subject they might be.

After all, there are no rules of art that can't be broken brilliantly. I'll probably eat those words later on when Knott eventually figures out how to design a piece capturing the emotions of Skywalker as he blew up the death star inside an aquarium . . . but if it's brilliantly done, it's brilliantly done. Looking forward to that. ^^;

No, I don't think that you could point to anyone art form that could communicate all the feelings a given subject better than any other.

No, I don't think that you could find the artist who is so skilled at all art forms that he could know and use the one that is "the best" to communicate his feelings and motions.

Artists are also a variable-- they have ties, connections, affinities and passions for their own art form, and work will come out amazing when the master is combined with his craft.

*For all these reasons, there are a multiplicity of art forms, and a multiplicity of subjects that all the art forms conver-- even when they over lap. Each one brings its own shade of meaning to a subject.*



> As I said, many paths in the garden... I am not trying to belittle anyones efforts, or taste, or make converts.


I know this is what you think gacp, but you must realize it's not what you say usually. I'm just putting everything you say into the general perspective.


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

Again, my questions remains:

Why _so few_ examples of great aquatic aquascapes? (I do not mean the ones in museums or public aquaria, I mean those that try to capture _beauty_, not to be mere accurate depictions.)

Why most aquascapers seem, as a rule so far, more interested in capturing the beauty of _land_ and not the beauty of _water_?

Finally, Is this what aquascapers actually want (which is absolutely fine, of course), a true expression of their fully-developed artistic taste, or is it more of a fashion, or even a certain poverty in their education as aquascapers stemming from a lack of inspired examples of _aquatic aquascapes_ and masters in this aspect of aquascaping? Do aquascapers really choose to focus on land, or haven't they simply not been inspired to look for beauty in water?

I believe that those who truly care about excellence is aquascaping should ponder about these questions. We already have terrific landscapes in aquaria, so at the very least, more excellent aquatic aquascapes can only make aquascaping a richer art form, one that can capture the beauty of the underwater world as no other art form can. And, those of us who want aquascaping to earn respect as _art,_ perhaps we should try to make aquascaping as unique an art form as possible---otherwise, many will ask, why bother with a new medium that can only deal with the same subjests the old already do?

For example, the scenes at the beginning of _Solyaris_ (Tarkovskii's, not the Usan remake) have a haunting beauty---if it can be captured in film, would it not be even better expressed as _aquascaping_?

Again: my point is not that what I see in being done in aquascaping is _wrong_ in any way (far from it), but that there is something _missing_---I do like what I see, yet I miss other things I expect to see but I don't.

And if you still prefer metaphoric landscapes, well, the contrast with "aquatic" styles will only make your aquascaping stand out


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

> otherwise, many will ask, why bother with a new medium that can only deal with the same subjests the old already do?


And I'm saying, this question is unfair. There's always meaning in using a different art form even if looking at the same subject.

There should always _be_ something missing, neh?

There are not enough dessert scapes. Not enough winter scapes. Not enough . . . the list goes on.

BTW-- if mountainscapes are so done in, and so perfected, than why does that 1 scape come to Aaron as so unique and special? IMO, mountainscapes haven't been done at that level much, and the genre of different types and feelings of mountains is REALLY unexplored.



> Why most aquascapers seem, as a rule so far, more interested in capturing the beauty of land and not the beauty of water


I also said, I don't think this is true.

This thread itself has a good number of scapes that could be considered water layouts as opposed to land layouts. Even Amano, whom we all consider the both the great aquascaper and the definition of "standardized" aquascaping (ie, the center of that which we consider no longer original), has done countless scapes meant to be water scapes. Some he would say are, you would say aren't because he focused more on the general feeling while you complain about echinodorus tenellus bothering you in an asian-focused scape.

Others, like the freaking MONSTER he has in his house, are definite examples of 1-to-1 very purist representation of a water scape. It might also fit into the genre of rain forest, but heck-- a single scape can fit well into two genre, right? After all, my "Hau Coast" can also be a swamp. 

Amano also has done water scapes based on African anubias-filled water ways, Amazonian waterways, and has done countless south east asian cryptocorene waterway aquascapes.

Have people imitated those too? Well yes-- he's Amano after all, so people have copied many of these like crazy. How many layouts have you seen recently using old black wood or manzanita? Those layouts aren't really like forests-- trees grow mostly straight after all. They're much more like stream-sides, especially those that focus on grass or no backgrounds over stem plants (like, um, 1st place ADA 2006?).

Now with ADA's movement into these "Wabi-Kusa" and "Nature Biotope" ideas with plants growing out of shallow tanks and ceramic pots-- if that ain't water-way focused I don't know what is! We'll be seeing more stuff like that I'm sure.

I'd agree that these layouts are still far from going into the vast majority of water way genre possible-- but heck, copying Amano too much is a problem facing the entire artform-- not just waterway scaping.

And besides, we'll never get to all the possible genre and subjects-- I hope. And even if we do, no two people ever do the same subject the same way.

There'll always be something "missing," something someone else can add. There'll always be reason to look forward to the future.


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> There'll always be something "missing," something someone else can add. There'll always be reason to look forward to the future.


Let's hope!!!

Yes, Amano is doing some aquatic-style aquascaping, as he always has, and others do it too. Anyway, I'm still waiting for those who will do to aquascaping what Esenstein did to film: give the media its own voice.

Check this out:










When have we seen an aquascape like this one?

Or this one?










Metaphorical mountains anyone?










Yes, that's _algae._ :heh:

Water flows, plants sway... uniquely feel, cannot get in outside water










Can't you just _see _ them moving? If you can't, maybe you should---rent _Solyaris._

More, and just from ONE photographer:
http://www.roggo.ch/photos-amazonas.htm
http://www.roggo.ch/photos-wasserwelten.htm
http://www.roggo.ch/photos-flusslandschaften.htm

Now, any succesful attemps at this, would be included in my favs list of aquascapes!


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

I believe in several reasons why people have not designed the aquascapes that gacp discusses:
1. People live on the land, and are therefore more familiar with terrestrial scapes. In general, people find more beauty with what they are familiar with. That is why I believe a planted tank can be more meaningful, peaceful, and beautiful than a marine tank.
2. The pictures gacp presented in the previous post are incredibly beautiful, however they are on such a scale as to be very challenging to successfully represent in our small glass cages. 
3. In addition, most of the pictures only represent a single species. In a home aquarium a single species could be very monotonous. 
4. Part of the beauty of Michael Roggo's pictures is the dynamic of water flow. This would be wonderful to re-create, but very logistically challenging. Private tanks are very unlikely to literally have this dynamic, but it can be created using metaphor. I believe there is a thread on here somewhere about dynamic vs. static aquascapes.
5. The typical goal with aquatic design is beauty, and is fundamentally an art form - therefore personal expression. I also believe a true biotope tank is theory not reality, as person who has maintained a tank with flora/fauna exclusively from South America. Even when flora/fauna are collected from a specific locality they do not exist as they did when they are put into a glass cage. Too many variables allowed in nature are controlled, plants are trimmed, fish are fed with little competition to other fish, and water conditions are fundamentally different. Therefore, I believe the metaphorical representations of nature are the best aqauscapes, and not the literal representations of nature.

For the reason in #5, I have recently changed the theme of my SA tank to one incorporating all the beautiful plants, fish, and invertebrates available in the trade.

To add to #5: Representing an actual piece of nature with artistic goal is to represent it in a way it does not actually exist in. I believe every art form involved with nature is this way. In general, I believe people appreciate, enjoy, and strive for the fantastical, awe inspiring, and unique feelings associated with real nature in the art of nature. When art is created from nature, I believe the artist is trying to express the emotions he/she felt when in that piece of nature. These feelings are personal and are what creates the beauty of art.

Anyways, I'm late for class...I'll get off my soap box now


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

gacp-- thanks for sharing the amazing photos! Now here are some above the water line--

Still no scapes that speak to me of:
































































credit due to all the amazing photographers at deviantart who keep adding things to my fav list and keep helping me in my work.


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## Leonard (Mar 4, 2007)

wonderful pics!


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Actually Guys...

i do have a scape that kinda looks like Gacp's 1st picture and Steven's 2nd last...

Its called "Decisions"....cos the fish have to make decisions all the time on where to go with all that stuff sticking into the water..haha.. just haven't got down to posting it yet as it is not matured and was too busy setting up the new ADA 60cm clear.

Steven.. also that 1st and/or 5th picture of yours is in my works...haha.. just waiting for the new tank to come.. its 60cm wide by 40cm high (3:2) but the good thing is that its 90cm DEEP..hahaha why create the illusion of depth when you can MAKE it..hahaha.. obviously not being able to scape in japan has overflowed when i got home a few weeks back.. my hands are itchy..

However.. back to topic.. i haven't posted because i really don't know which i like best....i think to me art is art. Variable as it is in so many forms but still called art.. be it water scapes or land "wannabe" scapes.. there are tonnes of factors that contribute to why i enjoy them in my own vision. I for one enjoy both forms because i work in one and live on the other... and sometimes land and water are interchangeable for both circumstances...haha..

Nice discussion guys.


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## twilothunder (Sep 18, 2005)

PJ Magnin:










I really like the aromatica in this tank, so red!


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## krisw (Jan 31, 2005)

I really like the following, in no particular order, because they are unique, and doing something that no one else has done as well before them:

1. Filipe Oliveira's Tree Scape. 









2. Gary Wu's Waterfall Scape:









3. ADA 5th place Mountain Scape that AaronT mentioned earlier.

The Amano scapes are and were stunning when I first saw them, but they've been copied so many times that they've lost their luster for me.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

I have to give the nod to Norbert Sabat's "Alone In Paradise".

It is the aquascape that inspired me to get into this hobby in the first place.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I've cared much for wu's aquascapes-- but I love his innovations. His new tank at the CAU site using the bare floor of the tank to imitate "water" is really cool-- but I think in all his scapes I've seen, somehow the finish doesn't come together unfortunately. Great ideas though-- though admittedly some may find them a bit too contrived.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Aren't most aquascapes that depict landscapes contrived. I mean your not going after something that would be found naturally underwater, but instead planning to recreate something that has been seen on terra firma. I think all of the scapes depicited on this page are contrived, except maybe the last one "Alone in Paradise". All the scapes are stunning by the way.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Yeah, they are all contrived . . . but I guess it's a matter of how comfortable you are with increasing levels of contrived-ness. lol

Rather, how unnatural you'll go to make it look natural (or rather, realistic?). Filter floss? Bare glass as water? Stunning to be sure, but a sense of a bit too much artificial-ness to me. To be honest, Filipe's tree almost comes accross to me the same way-- save for that I'm also doing a scape with sticks + moss as trees. *wince*


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## sebas (Dec 5, 2004)

my favorites all time





































photos www.akwarium.org


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