# [Wet Thumb Forum]-soil in goldfish tank



## newmang (Sep 22, 2003)

Anyone ever tried soil in a goldfish tank? I can't imagine it would work any differently to a tropical planted tank, as long as the goldfish were the small ornamental type.


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## csfish (May 19, 2005)

Unfortunately, goldfish, when healthy, don't stay small... Goldfish spend a lot of time rooting through the gravel and then you'll have your topsoil spread into your water column in pretty short order. I have also yet to find an aquatic plant that's impervious to the grazing of my goldfish- the young shoots and leaves of java fern and anubias and even the growing tips of vals get chewed off by these voracious fish. Mind you, other than the Flourish root tabs I put under the vals, the goldfish produce enough waste to feed the surviving plants that I don't have to add any fertilizer.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

My sister had (for several years) two 1-2" gold fish ("Red Caps) in a 15 gal with a healthy grove of Valisneria. The fish were fed well and didn't seem to affect the plants.


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## csfish (May 19, 2005)

I wish that my goldfish stayed at 2", but my calico fantails and lionheads have become 6-8" piggies that see everything green as salad. I feed them ShoGold pellets (from Goldfish Connection), algae wafers, shelled peas, pieces of zucchini, romaine lettuce, bloodworms and the odd mealworm and they still insist on grazing in the garden that I've provided for them....


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

All I can say is that your fish are lucky to have you as their owner.


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## csfish (May 19, 2005)

Thanks...


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I have 4 fancy goldies in a 55 gallon tank ranging from 9" to about 3", so it's probably too stocked to do the natural substrate thing. I'd think tho, that if the tank was moderately stocked as per Diane's book, with 1.5 inches of gravel over the substrate, that their foraging on the bottom wouldn't even come close to the substrate.

Currently, I used topsoil, with a 1" layer of sand and gravel in pots for my plants in the goldie tank and haven't had a problem with them.


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## csfish (May 19, 2005)

I guess my goldfish are exceptional gardeners...I have a rock that's about 8"x4"x4" and weighs almost 5lbs imbedded in the gravel that the fish manage to dig underneath!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Wow! Your goldies don't mess around!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Enjoyed seeing your goldfish pets and tanks. A nice change from aquascaped tanks! 

That was smart to combine the undergravel filter (keeps the gravel safely aerobic) with potted plants.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Thanks.







The UGF gives me the extra biofilter mass I need for the goldies and I can move the potted plants to vacuum the gravel. Best of both worlds I think... cept I still have to do partial water changes.

Misterb: I think it's more natural to have plants that goldies can munch on at will. Mine love duckweed and frogbit. They don't appear to eat the anacharis, hornwort, najas grass or javafern.

Diane: So will the natural planted tank work with bottom feeders like goldies?

Seems to me like there's two issues.
1) moving the gravel around, possibly exposing the substrate
2) goldies produce a lot of waste. Seems like that would result in a lot of mulm which they would be constantly sifting thru.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Diane: So will the natural planted tank work with bottom feeders like goldies? 

I don't see any reason why not. It seems like you understand the basics very well and are testing your ideas in an informed manner! Your experience with Goldfish will only enlighten us.


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## csfish (May 19, 2005)

Nice tanks, Betty. You're lucky that you're able to keep plants with your goldfish. Mine eat almost everything! Java fern get eaten and even though the older, tougher anubias leaves are untouched, the new shoots get picked off as soon as the leaf appears. So far, the only plant that seems successful is the giant vals- the rate of growth and "mass" output is fast enough to outpace the grazing of my goldies. They can't eat'em fast enough! Even then I spent about a month replanting again and again vals that were pulled and uprooted by the fish. Until I was able to wedge the vals between large rocks did the roots finally get established in the gravel. 
I must have a unique group of goldfish.... On the other hand, it looks like you'll have a successful experiment with a soil substrate with your fish.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Misterb: Yea... I think the key with goldies is lots of fast growing plants. I'll bet if you potted the rooted plants with a soil substrate, they'd do even better. I think the pots would help keep your goldies from digging them up. So you're currently using gravel with flourish root tabs?

Diane: Since I'm too stocked to do the natural planted tank thing, one of the things I'm interested in is keeping nitrAtes under control. I had some flashing going on and the only water param that was iffy was nitrAte, which was up between 40 and 80, so I did a massive partial water change last nite to get it down. But I hate doing that, cuz our city water has 2.5ppm chloramine and 1ppm ammonia, so each time I have to dump a lot of chemicals in to dechlorinate, bind heavy metals and convert ammonia to ammonium. 

I'm guessing the goldies produce about 3ppm ammonia per day which would result in about 9ppm nitrAte per day. in a week that would result in about 60ppm nitrAte buildup. change half the water, down to 30, another week, up to 90, change half down to 45, another week up to 105, etc. without plants it would be a losing battle. The plants are definitely helping. Denitrification is most likely happening in the pots as well. What I wonder is can I get enough pots in there to keep nitrAtes at bay and reduce the need for partial water changes. 

Any suggestions for rapidly growing rooted plants to try out? (pH 7.6, KH 5-8, GH 7, temp 76)


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## Kolkri (May 15, 2004)

I have 6 goldfish in a 75 gallon tank. I have found a few plants that they well let grow but not many. Plants and goldfish just dont work IMO. Also they dig and I mean dig a lot. 
Mine are not full grown yet but range from 4 to 9 inches. When grown then should be the all be 9 to 14 inches or maybe even more. Which means they well be to big for my tank so getting 150 gallons soon.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Any suggestions for rapidly growing rooted plants to try out? (pH 7.6, KH 5-8, GH 7, temp 76) 

Amazon swordplants, Myriophyllum aquaticum, and Valisneria are what I would try. If you have enough light, I'd try a Red Tiger Lotus and let leaves go to the surface. If you get enough soil (via pots) in your tank, you may be able to get your nitrates down. 

Also, I have a hunch that a soil layer under the gravel without plants would help with denitrification (and nitrification). Gravel with a soil underlayer doesn't seem to have the the potential toxicity of pure gravel substrates. 

I've set up several small bottles with just soil, gravel, and water. As long as the water is aerated, various soil bacteria do a nice job of removing ammonia and nitrates.


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

Just found Ms. Walstad's question about rapidly growing rooted plants for goldfish. Recently, I learned Amazons might be good. I stuck my small neglected one in a pot with potting soil probably mixed with sand, and put several small rocks around it. The pot is tall and narrow, so I think the goldfish wont be able to uproot it. They are big -black moor and redcap. It was a great huge plant at one time before the goldfish but thanks to ignorance (threw it out in pond. (I live in the hot desert) and no bigger place for it(29 ga.) it died down to its present state. I put the poor thing in a tall thin pot because it had a long tuber and stuck it in ten ga. with guppies.......I hope it takes off like before. It had a lot of "babies" too. I thing I could have kept those in thin pots with rocks to keep out goldfish.-Paula NEW INFO DEC.29,2005 I put my poor Amazon sword which was in the thin narrow pot with rocks protecting the tuber and roots and soil for nutrients in with the goldfish. They promptly uprooted it, ate the tuber, and "trimmed" the leaves and so it floats in my tank until i can tend to it. I think I could at least let it float in the safe guppy tank until i can repot it with better ,newer soil , lighting, and maybe kill some snails who made holes in it previously and just leave in guppy tank and hope it grows back to it's huge productive state. Still need to try val.on goldfish-Paula


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I've decided not to do a natural planted tank for the fancy goldies. they move too much gravel. In their 55, every week at partial water change time, I'd move all the gravel back into a mound about 3 inches deep in the middle of the tank. by the end of the week, they had moved it to where there was hardly any gravel in the middle with 3 inch mounds at the ends of the tank. They also didn't do well last time I moved them into the 125 NPT. Even tho it was loaded with plants, it didn't handle the fish load and had ammonia showing, plus the substrate was still bubbling up H2S and the goldies were getting mouthfuls of gasses as they foraged in the gravel. 

If you have good growing conditions... plenty of light and pot fast growing plants (e.g. sunset hygro, wysteria, any of the large swords, vals, etc) with around an inch of topsoil covered by gravel and then larger rocks, let them get established. A tub with goldie water and one of those compact screw in 6500K fluorescent lights by a window would work wonderfully, and then put a bunch of established potted plants in the tank all at once, it should help. 

Feeding goldies vegetables daily should help as well... e.g. green beans, lima beans, peas, zucchini, greens, etc. Mine actually don't eat many plants. I think they prefer the taste of the veggies. They actually spit out stray plant leaves floating in the tank.


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> Any suggestions for rapidly growing rooted plants to try out? (pH 7.6, KH 5-8, GH 7, temp 76)
> 
> Amazon swordplants, Myriophyllum aquaticum, and Valisneria are what I would try. If you have enough light, I'd try a Red Tiger Lotus and let leaves go to the surface. If you get enough soil (via pots) in your tank, you may be able to get your nitrates down.
> ...


To Ms. Walstad: see my edited version on Amazons and goldfish (above?)


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## jamie joy (Mar 20, 2006)

Now that you are (hopefully) a year or two further along with this goldfish/substrate/plant experiment, I wonder if anyone who participated in this thread would care to give an update. I'm a relatively new aquarist and experienced gardener who is stubbornly trying to meld the planted aquarium with my 6 adorable goldies. They're still 2-4" so not too much plant uprooting yet. They do love the tender shoots, though.

I wonder if anyone has a specific recommendation for a substrate that might be best for the goldies, with gravel over top. Many thanks.


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