# [Wet Thumb Forum]-My newly replanted 10g



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

I wanted to share my refurbished 10g. It was just pea gravel and driftwood and plants, but I added soil packets and filled in the areas around established plants with clay balls (good ol' southern red clay from the yard), and used frozen soil cubes in the tight spots without plants.

It's two weeks in now. Fish love it; betta has been blowing nests continually.
*Light:*standard 15W fluorescent + sunlight
*Fish:*Betta splendens, 2 cherry barbs, oto.
*Plants:*Crypt spiralis, crypt wendti green, java fern, hornwort(putting out new growth), anacharis, salvinia sp. from the bayou, tropica sword, cabomba frucata(had thought it was _caroliniana_), ludwigia repens, water sprite, water wisteria, dwarf sag, java moss, anubius.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Everything seems to be converting to low-light forms---the anacharis, hornwort, crypts, bacopa dropping low leaves. I'm still trying to work out the light and filter situation. It gets light from the northwest window, but there are storm windows on there that really cut light. I also moved the HOB filter to the side so it wouldn't block any light, but then my light doesn't fit on top! Also, the HOB outflow is beating up my crypts. I was considering a Hagen Elite Mini filter and will see whether or not I will have to upgrade the lighting in there to a 26W retrokit. Here's what the temporary setup looks like if anyone has any suggestions.

BTW, that's lucky bamboo hanging out the filter box. It's my best "emergent" algae combatant!


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

This photo is a tribute to Miss Fishy! Alex, you suggested a while back to try using a straw to keep my filter outflow/undertow from pulling my floating plants under. It has worked beautifully so I wanted to show you my salvinia nestled up to the plant "boom." (Some duckweed hitch-hiked in on an anacharis plant and I hope it takes off like the 4 or 5 original salvinia plants have). Thanks Miss Fishy!!

I'd love to hear any comments or suggestions since I'm really new at this and new to almost all these plant species. My Bacopa and hornwort and anacharis have recovered since my earlier posts and the pH that I posted about earlier at 8.6 is actually dropping WITH the cuttlebone in there to about 8.1 in the morning.









Oh, the nasty looking outflow of the HOB is actually polyfill quilt batting that I draped out the outflow to slow it down and direct it downward. It works but the bacteria that colonize it turn it brown---the water flowing over it is actually crystal clear!


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Hey Javalee! Nice tank! I think it looks great, and I can't wait to see it grown in some more. I wouldn't worry about the light too much, just keep the 15W and see what happens. If after a couple of months, the plants aren't growing as much as you'd like, then I'd consider upgrading. The tank looks like it gets lots of indirect light just be being in front of that window. I wouldn't fret....

My other suggestion is to add more cherry barbs. I don't know how much you know about them, but the bright red ones are males and the brownish reds are females. I would get 8 or so males and females. Once your plants grow in well, especially the hornwort, you might get some babies.... 

Good luck and keep us posted!

-ricardo


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Hey Ricardo, thanks for the comments







! I think I'll just get a glass top for now (it's an ugly plastic hood now) to take advantage of the light coming in from above, and like you said, I'll just watch and wait. I remember you saying you have a similar set-up that works well for you.

Yeah, I adore cherry barbs! I actually have a male in another tank; he'd love to be with his women again! Why didn't I try that before?? Thanks! I was actually having trouble getting my nitrates above zero in this tank so another fish would help.

I forgot to mention the 4 ghost shrimp, 3 cardinia japonica, MTS, and 1 pond snail too! I want more pond snails










And, I finally got the test kits in today: KH=20 and GH=1







. The cuttlebone may not be helping. Should I take further steps like adding onyx sand or somesuch? For now, I'll try breaking up the cuttlebone into more/smaller pieces...


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I would def. go with the glass cover, as I too find the plastic hoods unsightly. One more note on light... my tank sits in front and _below_ a window, so the only light that it gets is what streams down into the tank, which is admitedly not much. Even so, I do get quite good growth. W/ yours totally in front of the window, I think you'll find the lighting sufficient.

Also, what brand of cuttlebone do you use? I'm assuming here that you're buying the stuff for birds? The only cuttlebne bird supplements I could find were flavored and thought these wouldn't be good to add to my tank. The were also powdered. I'm also thinking of doing an experiment w/ cuttlebone and vals. An expansion of the experiment Diana mentions in her book. She has one bottle where she added baking soda, I think it was, along w/ her control. I think in mine, I'll have one bottle w/ baking soda (in the water), one with cuttlebone, one w/ oyster grit (both with the Ca in the soil) and a control to see which one grows best....

-ricardo


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Ricardo, I used a whole cuttlebone for birds, came with a clip. If it was flavored, it was fish flavor







! Stinky, but plain ol' cuttlebone I assume. Before, I just had several sea shells in the tank. I buried them in the substrate when I added the soil this time.

Cuttlebone may dissolve very slowly anyway, but I wonder if the 8.2 pH is not hindering the release of the Ca and Mg. I wonder if oyster grit would do any better since it's the same principle. I am noticing the "decalcification" grit on my anacharis. Maybe that's why the pond snail keeps rasping over and over the anacharis? And I have so many snails and shrimps that must be wanting Ca and Mg!


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## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> And, I finally got the test kits in today: KH=20 and GH=1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm baffled by this... Are these figures in degrees or ppm? I'd have to think that GH would be at least a few degrees higher than this. Where is the Ca and Mg going? I'm sure you probably have, but did you retest the GH just to be sure?



> Cuttlebone may dissolve very slowly anyway, but I wonder if the 8.2 pH is not hindering the release of the Ca and Mg. I wonder if oyster grit would do any better since it's the same principle. I am noticing the "decalcification" grit on my anacharis.


The pH you're seeing makes sense, particularly with a dKH around 20. I'm not sure why biogenic decalcification would occur with a dGH around 1. I don't think biogenic decalcification would cause a sudden cascade effect that would remove additional calcium from the water column. Even with biogenic decalcification occuring, I'd have to think that GH would still be high. Is the grit white, or is it brown? Perhaps it's diatoms.

I'd be really interested to see what one can do when KH and GH become as skewed as this. There are some plants that are better adapted at metabolizing bicarbonate, such as Vallisneria. These would help bring down the KH. But that still leaves the question of what to do to raise GH without further raising KH. I don't think using oyster grit would make any difference; if I'm correct, both oyster grit and cuttlebone are largely composed of calcium carbonate. At a pH already at 8.2, I don't think either of these will dissolve all that much. I also don't think it would help with a KH that is already high.

I'm stumped...


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Dave, me too







! Yes, that's degrees. I think I know why I have the odd combination of high pH/lowGH, but I don't know of a good way to raise the GH.

We have deep aquifer water that is probably treated with the soda-lime method to remove the Ca and Mg that precipitate on pipes. This is my educated guess.

In its previous incarnation, this tank was plain gravel with gorgeous java ferns and healthy crypt wendtii, crypt spiralis, and bacopa. Maybe I'll just have to see which plants will tolerate the bizarre conditions. So far, the cabomba furcata was the obvious bad choice, but it's not dead yet!

I'm starting to get some bubbling from the substrate the past few days. They're large bubbles every few minutes when the temp gets up to 82! Hoping this is mostly CO2! No bad smells yet, and residents are ok.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

What about adding something like Seachem's Liquid Cichlid Lake Salt that would add magnesium, calcium, sodium, and potassium? Could that increase the dGH w/out affecting the KH? Just a thought....

-ricardo


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## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> We have deep aquifer water that is probably treated with the soda-lime method to remove the Ca and Mg that precipitate on pipes. This is my educated guess.


This makes a lot of sense, as it would explain the high KH and the low GH. If so, then much of the Ca and Mg ions have been replaced by Na. (If only you could get to the water before it is treated...)



> What about adding something like Seachem's Liquid Cichlid Lake Salt that would add magnesium, calcium, sodium, and potassium? Could that increase the dGH w/out affecting the KH?


This is an interesting idea. I investigated this product on Seachem's website. It didn't specify whether it was composed of carbonate, sulfate, nitrate, or organic salts. I'm led to believe that these are not carbonate salts, as that seems to be a function delegated to their 'Buffer' line of products, but I could be wrong. The following is the analysis of the Liquid Cichlid Lake Salt:

Magnesium 3.44% 
Potassium 2.98% 
Sodium 1.57% 
Calcium 1.08%

If these are indeed non-carbonate salts, then that might be seen as a plus. However, I'm concerned about the Ca:Mg ratio. Some of the postings I've seen seem to promote a Ca:Mg ratio that is around 4:1. It would seem that the Mg component of this product is significantly greater than that of the Ca. I would probably not use this product myself.

However, digging around the Seachem website, I found another product labeled, 'Equilibrium'. The following is the analysis of this product:

Guaranteed Analysis (Amounts per 1 g) 
Soluble Potassium (K20) 23.0% 
Calcium (Ca) 8.06% 
Magnesium (Mg) 2.41% 
Soluble Iron (Fe) 0.11% 
Soluble Manganese (Mn) 0.06%

Most of these constituents are in the form of sulfate salts which is probably alright since it is dissolved in the water rather than a solid that is placed in the substrate. That, and the fact that this will probably be a one-time addition, unless you perform water changes. The Ca:Mg ratio of this product is much more closer to what you would want to achieve. The fact that it doesn't have any Na is a big plus too, since your water already has Na if it is indeed treated with the soda-lime method.

If it were me, I would probably consider the 'Equilibrium' product.

Just my two cents...


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

I think the tank is looking lovely, javalee! I'm glad the straw idea worked out well. How did you attach it to the filter? 

From Alex.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the input. Ricardo and Dave, I was considering adding Onyx sand to the gravel since I've heard on this site that it's good for raising GH, but it will raise KH too. http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Onyx%20Sand.html

I'm wondering about this Equilibrium now, Dave. I wonder if I can be sure that it doesn't have Na and carbonate in it? If so, then that's probably my best bet. I'll see if I can gather some opinions from some plant nerds on plant websites.









Miss Fishy, Thanks! To make the plant containment "boom" I just got two of the straws with the bendable ends and pushed the long end of one inside the other so that I had one piece with bendable ends on either side. Then I just bent the ends around the lip of the filter outflow. It floats and stays in place because of the pull of the water going under---the same ol' pull that used to sink my salvinia! Not anymore!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You could use calcium chloride (ice melter) and magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) to raise GH.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Betty, will the extra Chloride and sulfate cause problems? Are sulfates only a problem in the substrate? I have no idea; once you have to get outside the realm of natural, it gets complicated! 

Hmmm, I'm in Louisiana so no "snow-melter" here, but I wonder if pool supply stores would sell CaCl. I used to work in a medical research lab, and ,man, what I would give to have access to the "chemical supplies" cabinet again!

Going on 3 weeks and so far the plants that are putting out healthy growth are bacopa, water sprite, anacharis, hornwort, crypts, and CABOMBA! The dwarf sag, ludwigia, and hygro difformis are kind of static or not rooting well. I guess it could take a while for Ca and Mg deficiency to show? I've heard that plants can run on reserves for a while before showing deficiency.


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## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> I'm wondering about this Equilibrium now, Dave. I wonder if I can be sure that it doesn't have Na and carbonate in it?


According to Seachem's website: http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Equilbrium.html

"Equilibrium™ raises the essential mineral/electrolyte content (General Hardness) of the water to balance with and promote stability of the carbonate hardness. To maintain KH, we recommend Alkaline Buffer™."

I would have to think that there are no carbonates in Equilibrium; that is a function delegated to their 'Alkaline Buffer' product.

In regards to Na, Seachem states that, "Equilibrium™ contains no sodium or chloride".



> You could use calcium chloride (ice melter) and magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) to raise GH.


This would work too; it would allow you to custom formulate your own salt mix and give you more control over what is being added to your water. You'd want to be careful about measurements though, which is probably why I didn't suggest it.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks Dave, I just looked up some Equilibrium info and I see that the minerals it provides are all "derived from" sulfate compounds. I'm going to ask on PlantGeek if that means there is sulfate still in the solution. That would be similar to the Epsom salt situation, adding sulfates.

I noticed the Equilibrium also has iron and manganese. We have really high iron and manganese in our tap water already so I don't know; worried about an algae bloom. Maybe I could just dump in some extra hornwort or something to soak up the iron?

So, hmmmm....I guess if sulfate is ok and if it's in the Equilibrium anyway, then Betty's suggestion would be more targeted to my deficiencies.

Does anyone know what's in Aquarium Pharmaceuticals' Aquarium Salt? Looked up their website and it only says that it's evaporated sea salt. I bet that's NaCl, CaCl, MgCl. Anyone know?


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## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> Does anyone know what's in Aquarium Pharmaceuticals' Aquarium Salt? Looked up their website and it only says that it's evaporated sea salt. I bet that's NaCl, CaCl, MgCl. Anyone know?


I found this on the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals website:

"Aquarium Salt contains no artificial additives, sugar and, unlike table salt, no artificial color. It is made from evaporated sea water, which contains the following beneficial electrolytes needed by freshwater fish: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate, potassium chloride, and sodium chloride."

These salts are listed in alphabetical order; I'm sure there is an overwhelmingly large amount of NaCl.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

javalee: I think your idea of using the empsom salt and some other form of calcium is sounding best... it would especially make it easier to follow DaveP's advice on the Ca:Mg ratio of 4:1... If you go with the Equilibrium, I would definetly add fast-growing plants. Hornwort would probably work just as well as any. 

-ricardo


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks y'all







! Ricardo I think you're right. I wonder what plants are the biggest iron eaters.

Dave, you keep putting me to shame with your web finds







! I was hoping that aquarium salt would have less Na than Ca. Duh.

I'm gonna check with swimming pool supply stores in the area for the CaCl, see if I can find some.

I would have never come up with these ideas on my own. Thanks so much!

I'll continue to post the progress here...


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## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> I think your idea of using the empsom salt and some other form of calcium is sounding best... it would especially make it easier to follow DaveP's advice on the Ca:Mg ratio of 4:1...


I just thought of something that I'll just throw out there for further discussion. Calcium chloride is CaCl2; for everly mole of CaCl2 that ionizes in solution, 2 moles of chloride ion are liberated.

I guess my question would be: Which is potentially more hazardous to aquatic plants, having a greater concentration of chloride ion in the water column, or having a greater concentration of sulfate ion?


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by Dave P:
> I guess my question would be: Which is potentially more hazardous to aquatic plants, having a greater concentration of chloride ion in the water column, or having a greater concentration of sulfate ion?


I don't know which would be worse, but I'm guessing that it'd be easier to remove chloride ions with a tap water conditioner? Specifically one that removes chloride and chloramines?? Don't know, but that's what just popped into my head as I was brushing my teeth...

-ricardo


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You're thinking of chlorine and chloramines. not chloride ions. Different things.

As far as how chloride would affect plants I dunno. All my info on the calcium chloride comes from the pond water chemistry gurus and they for the most part don't do plants with koi. They recommend 1 part calcium chloride to one part mag sulfate for increasing GH.

Greg Watson has some calcium chloride on his site.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks for the CaCl2 link Betty! I'm still waiting for the SeaChem people at PlantGeek to answer my sulfate question about Equilibrium before I move on either product.

Meanwhile this potting soil substrate is bubbling like crazy. I wish there were some way to know what gases are being released. If it's CO2, my plants are set! 

On the light front, I'm getting some glass cut for the top since the glass canopy I bought doesn't fit. I had an idea, I have an old 18" fluorescent strip light with a 15" tube somewhere. I could just place that strip on the glass cover with my other one for nearly 3wpg if the front of the tank turns out to be too dark. That would create really even light distribution...


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

How about calcium _nitrate_ and magnesium sulfate! I can get it online thru Betty's link.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

This is terrific stuff here....


the straw
the bamboo 
the filter spillway pad

The tank is cute, too.
Good work, Javalee!


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks Diana for the kind comments







! I've gotten caught up in the GH issue so I'm glad to hear that everything _looks_good! I'm also thankful that the plants that initially went downhill are all nicely recovered now---just needed to adjust to their new environment I guess. I can be so impatient







.

Am I over-thinking the GH issue? I REALLY appreciate your natural method now that I have strayed into the land of chemicals. I don't know how people can enjoy their tanks when they're busy calculating KNO3, CO2, etc. I guess "numbers" people enjoy that. I still prefer ecology! and cuttlebone!!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

That might work. Here's some info on calcium nitrate.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Betty are you referring to the Calcium nitrate? If so, I think the FBI may have me under surveillance since I ended up on a "weapons and explosives" forum while googling calcium nitrate







! Ooops. I can hear the interrogation: "Really, I'm just an aquarium plant nerd!"

(we must have been typing at the same time. Hadn't you mentioned "creepy?")


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

So it's been one month, and despite the last GH reading of 3, then 2 (all attributed to the cuttlebone since tap reads 0dGH!), most of the plants have started really growing within the last week







!

I also had a glass top cut. I allow sunlight to diffuse through the day plus my 15w strip, then at night I add an extra, although dim, 14W strip. The plants really took off after these changes, may have been just the amount of time needed to establish roots too.

The hygro difformis is making oak-shaped leaves now---a low light form? The old established sword is putting out new darker green leaves. The only thing still static is the ludwigia. I may even be able to keep the cabomba; I've already pruned it once







!

I bought 2 oz. CaCl2 on a brewery website for cheap! I discovered these home-brewery sites are great places to get mineral supplements for plants. They even sell something called Burton's Water Salts that is designed to raise the GH of water used for brewing to the standards of some river water in England that is famous for making good ale. It adds Ca, Mg, and K in the correct proportions and it's cheap if anyone needs to raise GH. The only reason I didn't use it is because using soil packets left me with some spots that I fear could turn anaerobic and the BWS has sulfate in it. I got Epsom salts for Mg. I just dissolved and added them in as close to a 4:1 Ca:Mg ratio as I could. We'll see how it affects plant growth. Fish are fine and seen to behave more naturally with the plants. The new ghost shrimp ate ALL my bits of hair algae, and the pond snail eggs have started!

BTW, I think the water lettuce roots are one of the prettiest additions to the tank







!

I love watching this tank!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hey Javalee,

The tank looks like the plants have grown some since your first picture. Glad you went with the calcium chloride.

Because it's so important, I will start a new folder for the subject of calcium dosing.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Here's a photo of the floaters---mostly salvinia, water lettuce, and some duckweed. I can see how salvinia can be invasive! I took out about half the floaters today (donated them to our goldfish pond) since the rooted plants were getting light-starved. Hope the algae doesn't take advantage of the situation! I've got a bit of everything: blue-green, hair, black brush, and some kind of furry green-spot on the glass. All are under control. The blue-blur at the bottom is my begging betta.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

This is my tank that has had some fish health an substrate issues, but I wanted to share how successful the plants are at least







I've been doing water changes every 2 weeks to deal with any possible leaching of nasties from the soil, and I add calcium chloride and epsom salt when I do. The fish seem irritated (flashing still occasionally), but not really sick like they were a few weeks back.

I moved recently and this tank now sits against a window in a large room with an entire wall of windows. It gets direct dappled sunlight from 3:00 to 5:00. I had a standard 15W plus a 15W CF spiral at its old location, but now I only occasionly put the CF on it. I have to prune every week now! It's a total jungle, and I think it's more in control than I am. I think the water sprite will have to go; it's covering the other plants, and the leaves are getting far too large. The hyro is going nuts in the back. The little tropica sword is looking better now with sunlight. The cabomba is my favorite but it isn't showcased well now. Suggestions about plant relocating or pruning would be welcomed. I've struggled with my health since moving so we'll see what the jungle decides to do as I leave it on its own for a while.

I apologize for the bit o' blur on the photos.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

This one shows a bit of the cabomba i like so much, and the cute guppy pair. The cabomba is behind the male guppy.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

The tank in sunlight, showing the right side with the crypt spiralis.


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