# DSM NPT question



## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

Hello folks,
Im having a great time with my first walstad tank, and getting quite comfortable with how its looking and my parameters. As of today my tank is 0ppm NH3/4, so things are sitting pretty comfortable. 

Knowing that I like this style tank, I am wondering about DSM for these. Time in particular. How long can I run a dry start before adding water. I dont live in a city, and have to drive 1.5hours to get to one. This means that I dont have a chance to get there for plants all that often. This being the case, I am wondering if I can slowly plant it from clippings from my traditional planted 60 gall. This will mean planting the tank over the course of a few weeks. Anyone see any issues with doing it this way? I mean other than it taking longer?
Thanks for the guidance.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

If it were me, I'd grow out clippings in a bunch of jars so you could grow out enough plant mass to do things right from the start.

In my experience these setups will often establish a 'pace' in the beginning stages. If they're setup to run stable from the start, they'll do so, and remain so. Otherwise, I've seen things can be a little hit and miss.

Of course nothing's carved in stone, so that's just what I'd do based on my experiences.

Also, not a great fan of dry start, and probably wouldn't do one in a NPT...


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

You can do dry-start in a Walstad tank, but it is usually done only for difficult to establish plants like glosso or dwarf hair grass. For more hardy species it is not usually worth the trouble.

Skizhx's suggestion for growing plants in jars is a really good idea. The jars need to be about 1 gallon or more, and set them up just like the tank with soil and cap. One species per jar works best. Put them in a bright window. You will be amazed at how many plants you can grow this way. Right now I have 6 of these going to propagate plants I don't have room for in my "real" aquaria.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

cool. well I wanted to try it, so I have some hm and some moneywort in a 5 gallon drystarting. I intend to add some other stem plants later on when I fill it. Im doing a layer of dirt, a layer of dirt mixed with clay. Before I fill, i will add small amounts of sand to the uncovered dirt areas. 
Today is day 3, nothing in there worth noting. nothing is dying or melting, nothing has grown. From what I understand, nothing unusual for so early in the game. 

The reason I decided to go ahead and dry start was to get things going while I wait for the next time I get to the city. Im sure I will get there before my 6 week dry start is done


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

got some riccia from a local pal. how well does this one dry start?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

You can grow riccia emersed, but it never attaches to the substrate and will float when the tank is filled.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

hey,
thanks for answering my questions  I appreciate the advice. 
So once I get to a point with this where Im content and want to fill it, Im worried about carbon. In a normal dsm a person is advised to use either Co2 or dose excel/metricide. I have read in other threads people are saying in a normal start npt, that adding carbon isnt advisable. How does this apply with a dsm npt? Would I dose carbon (id be using excel because I have it) and wean my tank off over time?
Thanks for the continued advice and support 
James


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

bump, question regarding carbon source? Thanks


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## Bardus71 (Sep 29, 2011)

Not too sure about the carbon source jamesbarr, but I am sure there is an article by Diana Walstad on her doing a DSM in a NPT somewhere.... oh, there it is. www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

thanks a bunch bardus. She did not use an external carbon source for these tanks (in her article) However, she didnt use any high demand plants. She used Nana, hairgrass, HC and clover. All of these plants have a low Co2 demand. In her article, she makes no mention of whether she would add carbon if she had used higher demand plants like swords or larger stems. She does mention that the smaller carpet plants arent very competitive with algae, while other plants are, I would imagine that those more competitive plants are also more Co2 dependent. 

All that being said, I think that if a person were to avoid the higher demand rooted plants at first, or limit the number of them, and depend on floating plants to cycle the tank. Or a person could add the higher demand plants right before filling so that they wouldnt have to transition from emergent to submersed and therefore require you to dose carbon to the tank. I think that I will end up doing a little of both. I have a few moneywort stems and a couple PCS in there at the moment, but Ill just add a couple more upon filling and see which ones do best. 

Do you think that Im on the right track with this?


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## Bardus71 (Sep 29, 2011)

Right track? No idea... and no experience, but I am thinking of doing DSM with E.belem soon, so checking out my options. 

First thoughts that come to mind with what you have said so far is that it is the hight light plants that I imagine are CO2 hungry. Plants are solar powered, meaning, they will only grow relative to/with as much light as they recieve. Swords and crypts aren't light demanding as far as I am aware. HC on the other hand, is considered a high light plant (even though people have reported they have grown it in less than high light). Stems and swords I dont imagine you would really do in a DSM anyway, as they need the water to support their upright growth, so mainly DSM for groundcovers. 

The idea of doing DSM, AFAIK (please correct me if I am wrong) is to give these groundcovers a head start, with access to atmospheric CO2, develop their root structures, and then flood the tank. Anyone (like me) who has spent a month PAINSTAKINGLY replanting floating bits of HC in a full tank will be EASILY convinced of the merits of DSM. 

Once the plant is established, the tank gets flooded, and less light will be available, therefore metabolism will also slow, so less CO2 will be necessary, and you will want the growth to slow once it is established also, oltherwise it is just asking for more maintenence. 

That's my take on it. Now, wait to hear from anyone who has actual experience before you take my word as gospel.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

Thats definitely the reason that I am doing a dsm, and I went npt because I didnt want to use something like ada or flourish or w/e because Im all about the price point.

The thing that Im wondering about is that normal dsm a person will crank up the co2/ excel for the first bit to help the plants transition from dry to wet. This is supposed to help them compete against algae as well from what I can gather. 

The thing is that in the walstad method its frowned on to use an external carbon source. I think that Ive worked out what I will do. I think Ill just plant my higher demand plants upon filling to avoid the transition and therefore avoid the need to dose. I guess Ill have to see when I get there


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

My DSM on day 9. Thanks all for the advice so far


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

double post


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

Once again, my phone camera isnt doing my tank justice. I filled my NPT DSM day 19. Everything grew in as densely as I wanted in only a couple weeks. Today is day 21 from start, and day 3 after filling. Im starting it sans poisson. That way I can do fewer w/c. At the moment Ill be doing daily w/c until the loose soil from transplanting is gone. Contrary to typical npt dsm I am using diy co2 to aid in the transition from dry to wet. I want to eliminate as much die back as I can. So this tank will be transitioned slowly into a true npt later on. Once the nitrifying bacteria in the soil gets moving, they will product the co2 required by my plants. I intend to stock this tank down the road with a delta or half moon betta and some cherry shrimp.

I know that im going to be told to plant more plants in this tank, but Im modelling this tank after Dianas DSM in the article Bardus linked earlier in the thread. I have Riccia and Duckweed floating about on top and they should really help with my nutrient load  Also intend to ride this cycle out with w/c much the same way I did with my 20 gal NPT.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

so an interesting fact. Red Wrigglers can live aquatically. I just counted 3 worms poking their head out of the cap in my dsm. They eat rotting matter, so they must be happily living in the compost layer of my tank. Pretty cool.


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

jamesbarr said:


> so an interesting fact. Red Wrigglers can live aquatically. I just counted 3 worms poking their head out of the cap in my dsm. They eat rotting matter, so they must be happily living in the compost layer of my tank. Pretty cool.


I've noticed this as well, I wonder which are better at what they do, blackworms or red wrigglers...


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## Bardus71 (Sep 29, 2011)

Nice one. The duckweed is a godsend and a pest all at the same time. It acts as a good indicator that if there is too much nutrient in your tank, it will bloom and block off light to the underneath plants, and thus outcompete algae. I had it in 2 tanks and appreciated it, but it was a mess and a pain to manage despite its functional qualities. I like using floating hornwort on a new tank. Also Frogbit on an established tank for the same reasons.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

i actually wound up taking most of the duckweed out and now I have watersprite and riccia. both are growing quite well. The duckweed did exactly like you said. Big bloom and filled that little 5 gal in no time. So I just scoop it out anytime I see some growing. Things are getting clearer as far as water goes, but still have a measurable amount of ammonia for now, but I have no fish in there yet so Im no too worried.


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## jamesbarr (Feb 24, 2013)

Day 35, 17 since filling. I trimmed the HM right after this picture, its growing too tall for my pygmy swords in the back, which are actually pushing their way into the HM zone of the tank. Survival of the fittest I guess


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