# Pic - true Dwarf sag?



## bartohog (Jun 12, 2011)

Have this plant has never gone over 2", doesn't matter low light, high light, rich soil, poor soil. I also have Sagittaria subulata, ranilisma rostrata , three kinds of Lilaeopsis. I have had this plant couple year's


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Yes, that is _Sagittaria subulata_. What the other one in the hobby people have been calling that is, I don't know yet. Usually mine stays even shorter than that.


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## bartohog (Jun 12, 2011)

So if I order Sagittaria subulata from say aquarium plants. Com I'll get the plant in the pic. Because that's not been my experience


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## bartohog (Jun 12, 2011)

By the way thank you


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

bartohog said:


> So if I order Sagittaria subulata from say aquarium plants. Com I'll get the plant in the pic. Because that's not been my experience


No, you won't. You'll get what we've been calling subulata for years but really isn't. The stuff you have there is what we originally collected along a tidal river in Virginia a few years ago. Great foreground plant that grows steadily but isn't a weed.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Cavan, how would one tell the two apart? I have a well-behaved sagittaria in my 40 gallon Walstad tank. It stays 2" - 3" tall with no trimming, but has an incredible root system. Is it the true _S. subulata_?


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm also very interested in the S. subulata subject. Michael, in the Flora of North America they distinguish S. subulata, S. filiformis and S. kurziana as species (also seen as synonyms of subulata by former authors), and the main difference between subulata and filiformis is the length of the fruiting pedicels (fruit stalks). Apparently their S. filiformis is enormously variable, with submerged leaves 0.1 - 1.5 cm wide, and it seems that the customary "subulata" from the trade belongs to filiformis.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=222000335

In "The Cold Aquatic Plant Group" on FB Sean Murphy shows the tiny S. subulata from Virginia and a considerably bigger plant from Florida that was also IDed as S. subulata (in the narrower sense!). Same tank. So true subulata is very variable as well?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I have it too, stays small and spreads slowly compared to other tough plants like it.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I have the other one. It grows up to about 8 inches. It seems to get larger when the roots are pot bound but rarely gets over 8 inches. It sends out flower stalks but I have never really noticed the flowers. I’ll have to pay more attention. (Are those fruit stalks?) 
I’ve kept the original plant I got in a ten gallon tank for years now. I simply pull some out periodically and cut the rest down to about 3 or four inches. Easy plant.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

BruceF, your Sag was collected in Florida as well? In Sean's photo the Floridan one looks like a "normal subulata" from the trade, it seems to be really puzzling with the subulata species group.
So let's wait for the next inflorescence; the fruiting pedicels are the flower stalks of the lowermost whorls on the inflorescences (mostly 3 flowers per whorl) after flowering and developing aggregate fruits. For example here, the short stalk curved downwards: http://newfs.s3.amazonaws.com/taxon...ceae/sagittaria-subulata-in-connherbarium.jpg


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes it is the typical trade sag that is sold in the aquarium shops. I'll look later when the sun comes up but I recently cut these plants back to a manageable size so I assume all the flower stalks are gone at the moment. I'll try and remember.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

The customary aquarium "subulata" is apparently no S. subulata in the narrower sense, as Cavan wrote. That may also be the case with your sag. Still a puzzle.

There are also long known dwarf sags ("pusilla") that stay smaller than the "normal" ones, under the same conditions, in the long run. Who knows what species they belong to, and where they came from...


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Does this work?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I don't know how to make this bigger.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)




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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

BruceF, the flower to the left could be a male (staminate) flower, you can recognize them by their (mostly) 7 stamens. The very long-stalked one to the right MIGHT be a female (pistillate) flower. The long stalk (pedicel), >> 1 cm, would speak for Sagittaria filiformis.

Flowers of aquarium "subulata", for comparison with your plant:
male: http://www.flowgrow.de/db/images/wasserpflanzen/detail/sagittaria-subulata-4f7a02301b80f.jpg
female: http://www.flowgrow.de/db/images/wasserpflanzen/detail/sagittaria-subulata-522d749cbf1e7.jpg


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes Thanks I have seen both of those flowers here.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

For whatever reason only now I see your macro photo - clearly male (staminate). 
Please, could you check if the long stalked old flower (to the right of your fingers) is male or female (with many, spherically arranged pistils), if it's still present? And if female, how long is its stalk?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

It was female. Two branches came off the stalk first and they were both female. Each branch was about 5 inches long. Then the stalk ran about another 12 inches or so and sent off branched again and produced the male flower. Those tranches were shorter. I have a photo of that with a ruler but I am not very good at getting it from icloud to here. If you want to pm me an email address I can send you much better pictures.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Can you press it?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

It is too late now but if you want I will get you the next one. It does this fairly often. I would need instructions.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

If all flowers are faded but the old inflorescence is still present, it's not too late! You may cut off the whole inflorescence (the long stalk on the plant with all flowers) and photograph it alongside a ruler. The lowermost flowers on the inflorescence are always female ones.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

BruceF said:


> It is too late now but if you want I will get you the next one. It does this fairly often. I would need instructions.


All you need to do is spread it out (so the different parts aren't all smooshed) in between newspaper and put it between some heavy books. As miremonster has noted, taking some good photos of the fresh material (before pressing) definitely has value.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I'll keep it in mind. I threw it away days ago. I'll get you the nest one.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Yippie 
Thx, the stalks of the old female flowers are indeed much longer than 1 cm, that supports my opinion that "standard subulata" from the trade belongs to _Sagittaria filiformis_ (apparently a very variable species, judging from the description in "Flora of North America"). No Sagittaria subulata in the narrower sense.


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