# pale leaves and pinholes, oh my



## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

Please help me out with some of my deficiency problems! I posted a query in the fertilizer section about a month ago about how my Rotala indica was very pale yellow and how my pearl weed had turned white, the latter occuring after I started adding iron. Well things just got worse...and at the same time a bit better.
Since my first post I've changed my fert dosing schedule around quite a bit, both from the recommendation that I increase nitrogen and from the recent apperance of numerous pinholes in my rotala which prompted me to start added potassium which I previously didn't. I've also halved the amount of acid buffer I add to the tank. 
Now my revised fert dosing is as follows. These are totals for the week, I divided them down into daily additions of a couple of drops. 2.5ml Flourish, 2.5ml Flourish iron, 2.5ml Kent potassium, 1.5ml Flourish nitrogen. I also add 1ml Excel daily. Weekly I add acid buffer to drop the pH from 7.2-7.6 to 7.0. Specs are ammonia- 0, nitrite- 0, nitrate- 0. Tank is a ten gallon and is very densely planted. Lighting is by 40watt dual daylight cf. It seems to me like I'm adding alot of ferts, possibly too many, but I don't have any visible algae growth.

Anyway, my pearl weed's white deposits/growth/whatever is was has been disappearing since I up-ed the nitrogen and started with potassium. All it's new growth is healthy and by next week I'm hoping it should be back to normal. On another plus side, since uping the fert dosing and adding potassium my ludwigia arcuata has turned deep crimson and both it and my glosso and christmas moss are growing like crazy.
The rotala looks like death though. And the dwarf sag is following its path. The rotala originally had very pale yellow new growth, which I added iron to combat, didn't help. Lately tiny black pinholes are covering the leaves, alot of new and old growth is missing the tips to their leaves, and the older leaves are going transparent- not uniformly, but blotchy-ly, it looks like something's been rasping on it. There's one stalk where the very top new growth looks perfect, but the leaves directly below this are tiny. Some of the sag is turning trasparent as well. I find this alarming because it is right next to the rotala in the aquascape, while the healthy plants are mainly on the other side.

Now the reason I'm posting for help here and not in the fertilizer section is because of something which many sound silly, but I've been wondering about. .My tank has alot of 'bugs' in it. Daphina, snails, scuds, paramecium (sp), nemotodes, and who knows what lurks beneath the gravel. The tank has no fish, just ghost shrimp, so any hitchhikers from my plants have become very established. Is there any possibility that some sort of invert is eating at my rotala or its roots and that it could contributing to or causing these problems? And if it is just a nutrient deficiency, what should I adjust?. Thanks in advance and sorry for the long winded post


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi black_lung.

Here's Seachem's dosing amounts for a 10g aquarium with 8.5 gallons of water:
F. Excel - 4.3ml on water change day and then 0.9ml daily
F. Iron - 0.9ml daily
Flourish - 0.7ml twice a week
F. Phosphorus - 0.5ml twice a week
F. Nitrogen - 0.5ml twice a week
F. Potassium - 1.4ml twice a week (I don't know how this compares to Kent's Potassium)
F. Trace - 2.1ml twice a week (it's not really needed)

You don't really need to add the Acid Buffer, do you?

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with: "Daphina, snails, scuds, paramecium (sp), nemotodes, and who knows what lurks beneath the gravel."


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

You said you had scuds (Gammarus?) They can eat plants. I once introduced them to try to get rid of hair algae. They did a good job on that, but then they ate up my plants!


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## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

QUOTE=
_Here's Seachem's dosing amounts for a 10g aquarium with 8.5 gallons of water:
F. Excel - 4.3ml on water change day and then 0.9ml daily
F. Iron - 0.9ml daily
Flourish - 0.7ml twice a week
F. Phosphorus - 0.5ml twice a week
F. Nitrogen - 0.5ml twice a week
F. Potassium - 1.4ml twice a week (I don't know how this compares to Kent's Potassium)
F. Trace - 2.1ml twice a week (it's not really needed)_

-So by following that guideline, would that be providing the correct balance of nutrients for my particular setup? Any clue as to what could be causing these symtoms, like is it a particular nutrient excess or deficiency, or could it be a combo of a host of things? Always interested in hearing different ideas.

QUOTE=
_You don't really need to add the Acid Buffer, do you?_

-I know that buffers like that can do all sorts of unneeded things to the water chemistry, but I add it right now for two reasons. First one is that one of my plants, the Ludwigia arcuata, never grew and had horrible coloration until I lowered the pH. Same thing with the glosso. If I could find a nice red plant that's more tolerant of high pH and stays managable, I'd switch it out, and I've wanted to replace the glosso with some hm for awhile now.
Second reason is that my city waters pH level seems to flucuate rather wildly. Some weeks the tap tests out at 7.0, while other times it's as high as 8.0. I do 50% weekly water changes, so using straight tap means my tank would be going through potentially big pH swings every week. It's easier keeping everything stable this way. Though if I can find a replacement for the Ludwigia I would definately drop the buffer..


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## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

HeyPK said:


> You said you had scuds (Gammarus?) They can eat plants. I once introduced them to try to get rid of hair algae. They did a good job on that, but then they ate up my plants!


eek! yeah I've always wondered what they were surviving off of in there.
they were leftovers from when I cultured them for my dwarf puffers, so they're probably munching on my foliage as a form of revenge lol 
might be time to add some fish to this tank..


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

black_lung said:


> Left C said:
> 
> 
> > _Here's Seachem's dosing amounts for a 10g aquarium with 8.5 gallons of water:
> ...


_You mentioned that your new dosing regimen was helping. Do you need to modify it again?

I used the above regimen for over a year with a 10g that was heavily planted with high light and CO2. It worked well. Once on a while I had to increase my F. Potassium dosing when I saw pinholes. Maybe if I would of dosed my F. Potassium to ~ 2.0ml twice a week; I might not of noticed any pinholes.

I don't know how F. Potassium compares to Kent's Potassium. I do know that F. Potassium is really weak stuff.
http://www.kentmarine.com/botanica/k.htm
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishPotassium.html



HeyPK said:



You said you had scuds (Gammarus?) They can eat plants. I once introduced them to try to get rid of hair algae. They did a good job on that, but then they ate up my plants!

Click to expand...

This may be part of your problem as well.



black_lung said:





Left C said:



You don't really need to add the Acid Buffer, do you?

Click to expand...

-I know that buffers like that can do all sorts of unneeded things to the water chemistry, but I add it right now for two reasons. First one is that one of my plants, the Ludwigia arcuata, never grew and had horrible coloration until I lowered the pH. Same thing with the glosso. If I could find a nice red plant that's more tolerant of high pH and stays manageable, I'd switch it out, and I've wanted to replace the glosso with some hm for awhile now.
Second reason is that my city waters pH level seems to fluctuate rather wildly. Some weeks the tap tests out at 7.0, while other times it's as high as 8.0. I do 50% weekly water changes, so using straight tap means my tank would be going through potentially big pH swings every week. It's easier keeping everything stable this way. Though if I can find a replacement for the Ludwigia I would definitely drop the buffer..

Click to expand...

What is the pH of your water after you let it sit out for 24 hours? If you haven't done this before; pour a cup of tap water and let it sit out for 24 hours or more. You can measure the pH as soon as you pour it and then measure the pH after it has sit.

There should be difference. Tap water contains gases that effect the pH. By letting the water sit out, the gases get a chance to escape and the pH changes.

Acid buffer works by breaking the carbonate bonds and releasing CO2. Your Lugwigia may be responding to the CO2 increase.

Can you add DIY CO2 and drop the acid buffer?_


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## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

_QUOTE=You mentioned that your new dosing regimen was helping. Do you need to modify it again?

I used the above regimen for over a year with a 10g that was heavily planted with high light and CO2. It worked well. Once on a while I had to increase my F. Potassium dosing when I saw pinholes. Maybe if I would of dosed my F. Potassium to ~ 2.0ml twice a week; I might not of noticed any pinholes.

I don't know how F. Potassium compares to Kent's Potassium. I do know that F. Potassium is really weak stuff.
http://www.kentmarine.com/botanica/k.htm
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishPotassium.html

This may be part of your problem as well._

-It is helping some problems, and does well for me, it just seems like I'm adding so much stuff to the water. I'm trying to avoid overdosing, and when it comes to the rotala's issues, I hate to randomly start uping stuff, as it could be alot of things that is causing it's symptons.

Kent's potassium bottle says- sources of nutrients: muriate of potash; guaranteed analysis: soluble potash 5.00%; recommended dosage 1ml per 10 gallons weekly

_QUOTE= What is the pH of your water after you let it sit out for 24 hours? If you haven't done this before; pour a cup of tap water and let it sit out for 24 hours or more. You can measure the pH as soon as you pour it and then measure the pH after it has sit.

There should be difference. Tap water contains gases that effect the pH. By letting the water sit out, the gases get a chance to escape and the pH changes.

Acid buffer works by breaking the carbonate bonds and releasing CO2. Your Lugwigia may be responding to the CO2 increase.

Can you add DIY CO2 and drop the acid buffer?_

-You know, that concept never dawned on me. Sometimes I test the taps pH when it comes straight from the faucet, other times when it's been sitting out awhile. That would definately explain the differences. I'll have to try that out and see what results come out.
I have a DIY system already waiting to be hooked up to the tank, just waiting on some extra money to buy the diffuser


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> ...just waiting on some extra money to buy the diffuser


If you have an HOB type filter, why not just inject it into the intake? I have a 10 with an AC mini which I have been feeding pressurized into this way for over 3 years now, works great, and is one less thing to have in the tank or to buy.

Definitely recommend letting the water sit out for 24 hours prior to taking your pH reading. This will degas and equilibrate water properly.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

sounds like a calcium deficiency with having pale/white foliage


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## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

Bert H said:


> If you have an HOB type filter, why not just inject it into the intake? I have a 10 with an AC mini which I have been feeding pressurized into this way for over 3 years now, works great, and is one less thing to have in the tank or to buy.
> 
> Definitely recommend letting the water sit out for 24 hours prior to taking your pH reading. This will degas and equilibrate water properly.


I have a canister filter; is there any way to work it where I could directly inject it into that? The idea of saving money and having less tank clutter at the same time is very appealing.

After letting the water sit out 24 hours I compared the pH with that tested from the tap the day before- straight from the tap it read 7.6 and after sitting 24 hours it actually tested out to be a little higher, not quite 8.0, but noticably darker than 7.6.


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## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

Newt said:


> sounds like a calcium deficiency with having pale/white foliage


Would this be a possible side effect of using the acid buffer? Out of curiousity, what dissolved level of calcium do plants require? And how can you supplement it?


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

Unfortunately this site has some peculiar attachment restrictions and I can't attach a word doc that lists all possible plant deficiencies.

The pin holes could be from potassium deficiency and the white foliage from lack of calcium. I use acid buffer by Seachem occassionaly but always mix it with water and add it slowly. If your GH (calcium and magnesium) and KH (carbonates) are low then you can add Equilibrium by Seachem to raise GH and potassium or R.O. Vital for GH and KH or find some calcium carbonate.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

Here's a link that may help:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm


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## black_lung (Dec 19, 2006)

thanks for the link, its very helpful! looking over it i'm not sure that what's going on with my plants is a straight cut case of calcium deficiency, since it said symptoms primarily occur in new leaves, which -is- the case with my rotala..however the pearl weed's new growth is fine, its the old leaves that are stark white. it does sound the most like my problems though, so thats what i'm looking into. i notice alot of calcium precipitation around the heater and equipment whenever i do a water change. normally my city's water has very high gh, but i haven't been able to test my actual tank waters gh since i started using the acid buffer (test solution ran out, bah).


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