# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Potted Plant Techniques...



## IZM (May 24, 2003)

I read a lot about people keeping swords and crypts in pots. How do you keep plants with such extensive root systems in pots successfully?


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## IZM (May 24, 2003)

I read a lot about people keeping swords and crypts in pots. How do you keep plants with such extensive root systems in pots successfully?


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

These are all plants that will propagate themselves asexually through sending out of runners and/or extensive root systems, which will eventually grow out new plants in surrounding areas. If you do not want this to happen, and would feel much more at ease at confining them to a certain space, then you could try enclosing the plant with a bendable plastic sheet; a transparency, for instance. Do this around and beneath the plant. This should keep their roots intact. Of course you can always use completely sealed pots; pots with holes. 


Paul


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I just potted mine up a couple of months ago. They're in 4 inch pots with several inches of topsoil and a layer of gravel on top.

The very small chain swords are nice and green and sending out runners like crazy as are the mid-sized chain swords. When I had them rooted in gravel they looks puny and didn't grow that well.

I also have several types of swords in pots: Amazon, oriental, radican, red melon and brasil. They all look happy as clams at the moment.

I figure when they start getting crowded, I'll just split and repot them like I would any terrestrial plant. What, I'm hoping to do is get enough grown out to do a natural planted tank with a topsoil substrate.


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## IZM (May 24, 2003)

Betty,

I notice you also have goldfish. Are you planning to do that soil substrate in your goldie tank?

I am starting to plan a low tech tank for my goldfish Chuck. Chuck is a 7 year old 10 inch comet that lives in his own 75 gallon tank. I know that a soil substrate will not work with him so I figured I would need to go the potted plant route. 

Do you have pots in the tank with the Moors? I don't see them in the tanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

As to pots, I have kept one Amazon Swordplant in a small pot in order to keep it small. It's been in this small pot for a year now and doing fine. Sort of like Bonsai.

I've kept plants in pots for years. I just prune the outer leaves and they keep growing.  For Crypts, I sometimes remove most of the tops and just let them regenerate from the roots.

Remember that the plants can get most nutrients from the water so they're not going to die if they don't get repotted. 

Last, make sure that you don't bury the pots in a thick gravel layer; people often try to hide the pots... much to the detriment of the fish. The gravel will gradually become anaerobic and toxic to fish (via releasing hydrogen sulfide gas) unless you vacumn gravel weekly. Gravel layer inbetween pots should be very shallow- not more than 1/4 inch. A shallow gravel layer will stay safely aerobic, and rarely (if ever), require cleaning.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

IZM: One common in a 75. Wow. you could do a natural planted tank if he isn't into mowing down plants like some goldies are.

Yes, all my rooted plants are currently planted in pots with a topsoil substrate/gravel overlayer. The ones that are more exposed have a layer of larger rocks on top of the gravel to keep the goldies from digging in them. It's working great!

I'm seriously considering doing a topsoil substrate in the goldie tank over christmas. Should work fine I *think*, with maybe some extra depth for the gravel to make sure they can't get down to the topsoil, plenty of mechanical filtration and ramshorn snails for the cleanup crew... assuming the bioload in the goldie tank isn't too big. My main motivator is my tap water. It's the pits. Has 2.5ppm ammonia after it's dechlorinated and 10ppm nitrAte, so every partial water change adds ammonia to the tank. The chemicals that detox ammonia also decrease O2 saturation in the water for several days according to the koi folk with ORP meters. I haven't noticed any problems so far from that, but I don't like the idea of dumping ammonia and chemicals into the tank each week.

Diane: I have to put gravel around the pots because the chocolate oranda kept getting stuck between pots trying to get down between them to eat stuff. little doofus. When he gets bigger, that should solve that problem. I've been cleaning out one side of the tank per week to keep the gravel from going anaerobic and I haven't noticed a lot of debris so far.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Here are some pics of some of my plants potted in topsoil from my goldie tank.

Couple of swords. I should have marked the pots, cuz I can't remember which is which! could be Amazon, oriental, or brasil swords.



















Bronze Wendetti









Wysteria (hygro difformis)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice plants. Your white and yellow goldfish is a pretty one.

You have an interesting combination of tropical plants and what I thought were coldwater fish. I'm curious. What temperature do you generally keep this tank at? Does it have a heater?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Thanks Diane.









I keep the tank at tropical temps 78F. That should make their immune system more active. They seem happy and are growing like weeds.


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## IZM (May 24, 2003)

Those crypts don't look bad at all!

My goldfish chuck seems to prefer higher water temps as well. He does not do well at temps below 75 degrees. I don't keep a heater in the tank or anything but because of the temp of my home his tank never drops below 75.

When he was younger I used to try and keep him in cooler water but he never seemed to adjust. I'm hoping that if I can convince myself that he won't dislodge all the plants I can take advantage of some plant filtration and shut off one of the 2 whisper filters I currently run on his tank.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

If the plants have a decent root system, they should be ok. I'm thinking that since all my plants have been potted in topsoil, they should have good root systems... That should make it more likely they'll stay in place. What I'll probably do, is put the topsoil in the tank, then unpot the plants inside the tank and place each, adding the gravel around each plant as I go.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

When I had cichlids that often tried to dig up plants, I used to place small stones or rocks near the plants. Even one or two stones may weight the plant down enough to keep it from being uprooted. 

I used small stones from nearby streams or what I dug up in the yard.


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## IZM (May 24, 2003)

That's a thought...there might even be a way to use the stones in a decorative way to create a pretty good scape. Hummmm, thanks for all the tips and suggesitons and photos and stuff. I think I will go ahead with the plans and try a low tech planted goldfish tank.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Cool! Keep us posted on it.









Cleaned out the other end of the tank today and got some more pics.

Here's the hygro. This stuff grows like crazy. Started with only 3 stems maybe 2 months ago. 









And a sword. not sure what kind. Could be oriental, radican, or brasil. Anyone know which it is? 









I think the big sword is an amazon sword and the little red one is a red melon sword. I really should have marked the pots.









Sunset hygro. This stuff also grows like crazy.









I rearranged the right side and did some major pruning, so hopefully the swords are getting more light now.

It's nice being able to move plants around. Hopefully by the time I'm ready to do a natural planted tank, I'll have a good idea of how I want things arranged.


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## Maurici (May 31, 2004)

Diana, your technique is very interesting for everybody who love planted tanks but I'm sure that you have many critics about your aesthetic proposals of pots (more than the expected for those to choose other growing methods for better results to aquatic plant cultivation). About the impossibility of buring pots you posted:


> quote:
> 
> make sure that you don't bury the pots in a thick gravel layer; people often try to hide the pots... much to the detriment of the fish. The gravel will gradually become anaerobic and toxic to fish (via releasing hydrogen sulfide gas) unless you vacumn gravel weekly. Gravel layer inbetween pots should be very shallow- not more than 1/4 inch. A shallow gravel layer will stay safely aerobic, and rarely (if ever), require cleaning.


Can you explain me a little bit more the reason of the problem? I led convinced with only your experience, but I would thank more details because I've not suffered anaerobic problems with gravel without potted plants and I don't understand why the pots give an special way to this kind of toxicity. 
Best regards.
Maurici


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## Tyrone Genade (Jan 1, 2005)

I'm also interested in this.

My big amazon and _Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia_ colony sent out a mass of roots pretty much spanning the entire 1.2 x .45 m tank bottom. In this tank (silica sand substrate about 7 years old, about 5 cm deep) I never had problems with H_2S. In another tank with fine sea sand and only about 2 to 3 cm deep when you stired the sand you could smell the H_2S... this didn't stop the _Neolamprologus pulcher_ and _Julidochromis transcriptus_ from filling the tank with dry though. That tank also had some of the fastest growing _Hygrophila polysperma_ Sunset I've ever had.

As I understand it the plants will pump O2 down into their roots, some of the O2 escapes into the surrounding soil and prevents an anaerobic state that would generate H_2S. If so, then why couldn't the _Hygrophila_ do the same trick? Not enough of an extensive root system or was did it not have the proper vascular structure that the swords and crypts have?

Thanks


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Can you explain me a little bit more the reason of the problem? I led convinced with only your experience, but I would thank more details because I've not suffered anaerobic problems with gravel without potted plants and I don't understand why the pots give an special way to this kind of toxicity. 

##I have witnessed several hobbyists having problems (sick or dead fish) with gravel substrates and plants in pots. I believe it is due to organic matter collecting at gravel bottom and fueling sulfate-reducting bacteria to produce H2S.

However, some hobbyists may never have a problem. Remember this: Sulfate-reducing bacteria, which produce the toxic H2S, need organic matter, anaerobic conditions and sulfates. If any one of these things is missing, H2S will not be a problem.

Hobbyists with hardwater, which usually contains more sulfates, will probably have more problems with H2S than hobbyists with softwater, which usually contains few sulfates. In marine tanks, where the ocean water contains plentiful sulfates, the potential for H2S toxicity is accentuated.

Thus, some hobbyists like you will report no problems with having pots with plants buried in deep gravel. However, I believe that 3 inches of pure gravel as substrate can be risky. If you want to set up your tank this way fine. But please be sure to watch your fish closely and be prepared to clean the gravel should your fish stop eating.


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## Maurici (May 31, 2004)

Hi,
Thank you Diana for your reply, I will put attention on fishes behaviour attending the possible problem. 
Really the anaerobic conditions, if appear, will conduct to heavy problems for most plants and fish life in our tanks, so is important to avoid compacted and thick substrates. I think that a substrate of irregular and not very small gravel which permit water interchanges with the column can be sure in the case of completely buried potts. If the accumulation of organic matter beside de bottom holes of the pot is in the presence of enought dissolved O2, then the sulphate-reducing bacteria and other microbes oxidise the organic matter and even make the re-oxidation of existing or produced H2S promoting the formation of other sulfur compounds not so toxic but useful for plants utilization. 
Tyrone, you quotes the posssibility of oxigenation due to root interchange with surroundings; this fact is correct, but I think it not works significantly in the case that Diana refers, as I can understant she, where the roots are inside the pot and the organic matter accumulation problem is outside.
Kind regards.
Maurici.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Maurici:
> Really the anaerobic conditions, it appears, will conduct to heavy problems for most plants and fish life in our tanks, so it is important to avoid compacted and thick substrates.


Hi Maurici,

One important caveat to this. Substrates containing iron will probably not generate H2S. This is because soluble iron immediately reacts with any H2S and produces FeS, which is not toxic.

Thus, when I added (as an experiment) sulfate-containing fertilizers into regular clay soil (lots of iron), there was no H2S problem. When I added them to plants in potting soil, plants were stunted and roots blackened and mushy.

My best summarization (to date) is this:

H2S could be a problem in tanks with potting soil (low iron content) combined with very hard or brackish water...or if the hobbyist fertilized the soil (or water) with sulfate-containing fertilizers. Also, a deep gravel substrate combined with very hardwater probably would eventually generate H2S (as organic matter and anaerobic conditions increased over time).

H2S would be less likely a problem in tanks with unfertilized potting soil combined with soft or moderately hard water. In tanks with regular clay soil or other iron-rich substrates (e.g., laterite/gravel substrate), I doubt there would be any problem with H2S... irrespective of water hardness (i.e., high sulfate concentration).


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