# [Wet Thumb Forum]-What is the deal with my 240gal? (long)



## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

This is going to take a bit of explaining to get some kind of correct answer. As I have not found much information on maintaining a tank this large, I CAN tell you it is not the same as a 50gal to 100gal. Therefore, anyone with experience in large capacity planted aquariums, PLEASE speak up!

The tank has been established for a year and a half now. As I used to have lush planted tanks, this one has been a really tough job. I just can't seem to get my plants to grow like my smaller tanks did.

The growth rate is quite slow and older leaves on the crypts are getting dark brown algae on them. Amazingly enough, some plants are doing very well, but can be doing better. My Crypt balanse look great, but they should be further along. I have Baby's Tears that work as a great ground cover creeping along the substrate. As a matter of fact, the BT's have been bubbling like champagne recently.

When I first set up the tank, I elected to not "seed" the substrate for fear of a maintenance nightmare....algae blooms mainly and plants growing to quickly and too large. I was urged to just use Fluorite mixed with 25% Profile.

So here are the tank specs and other pertinent info to help me figure out the problem.

DIMENSIONS-240 gallon 8'x2'x2'
FILTRATION-55 gallon sump fed from overflow at the return end of the tank. Care was taken to plumb everything to keep agitation to a minimum. Overflow pipe runs to upper mid level of the sump where the water filters through many layers of filter fabricate. Return is drawn by a 1000gph pump and sent back up to the tank. 
TEMPERATURE-80 degrees F (three heaters in bottom of sump)
LIGHTING-Compact Fluorescent 20 x 36w bulbs 720 watts total at 3wpg, 10 hours per day (canopy cooled by two electric computer fans drawing heat out
SUBSTRATE-75% Fluorite, 25% Profile, 3"-4" deep no vacuuming
CO2- 2 tanks injected, 1 tank feeds a diffuser pumped by a mini power head in the aquarium at 1 bps, 2nd tank feeds a DIY unit that is inline with clean return water from sump at 1 bps. The unit is filled with bio balls and seems to break up the CO2 quite well. This is all pumped back into the aquarium. It is clear to see the tiny bubbles throughout the water column.
H2O-This has changed over time. I initially filled with 100% RO/DI, this created blue algae problems and other hard to handle situations. I then went to a 50/50 mix of RO/DI and tap. I just recently changed back to 50/50 from 100% tap. Weekly water changes of 20%
FERTILIZER-Jobe Stix (palm and fern) for deep rooted plants, Flourish w/o iron, KNO3 daily as per PMMD, K2SO4 per PMMD. Basically, KNO3 and K2SO4 are dosed together at 1 cup per day figuring there is an additional 25 gallons or so in the sump.

VITALS-
PH-7.5-8.0
NH3/NH4-<0.3mg/l
KH-3dH
GH-7dH
NO3-80ppm
CO2-2mg/l

Now, I suspect that the reason for the NO3 being so high is the PMMD dosing. I recently used AmQuel plus to bring the nitrates down, but that hasn't worked. I also used Seachems Neutral Regulator for 7.0 pH, but that hasn't made an effect either. One dosing of each so far.

There are no stem plants in this tank, all rooted except for the Java fern, which btw is very very small and stays that way.

Aside from the brown algae and slow growth rate, most plants remain small and some older leaves on the Amazons fade with a touch of yellow. Some of the C. balanse have fallen off after becoming mush and transparent. I had tried several other ground covers like Glosso and dwarf Hair grass, but they just disappear. In my older smaller tanks, I had to trim the hair grass often to keep it in check.

I am hoping this is enough info for some of you to help me here as this is way more work than I ever expected. I don't mind the maintenance, but the results are poor and that is discouraging. I was thinking of tearing it all down and starting over by changing the content of the substrate since most plants are crypts and swords.

Here are some pictures to give you an idea of what the present state is. A couple of pics of the plumbing as well.

Thank you in advance for any help offered!

Keith


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

This is going to take a bit of explaining to get some kind of correct answer. As I have not found much information on maintaining a tank this large, I CAN tell you it is not the same as a 50gal to 100gal. Therefore, anyone with experience in large capacity planted aquariums, PLEASE speak up!

The tank has been established for a year and a half now. As I used to have lush planted tanks, this one has been a really tough job. I just can't seem to get my plants to grow like my smaller tanks did.

The growth rate is quite slow and older leaves on the crypts are getting dark brown algae on them. Amazingly enough, some plants are doing very well, but can be doing better. My Crypt balanse look great, but they should be further along. I have Baby's Tears that work as a great ground cover creeping along the substrate. As a matter of fact, the BT's have been bubbling like champagne recently.

When I first set up the tank, I elected to not "seed" the substrate for fear of a maintenance nightmare....algae blooms mainly and plants growing to quickly and too large. I was urged to just use Fluorite mixed with 25% Profile.

So here are the tank specs and other pertinent info to help me figure out the problem.

DIMENSIONS-240 gallon 8'x2'x2'
FILTRATION-55 gallon sump fed from overflow at the return end of the tank. Care was taken to plumb everything to keep agitation to a minimum. Overflow pipe runs to upper mid level of the sump where the water filters through many layers of filter fabricate. Return is drawn by a 1000gph pump and sent back up to the tank. 
TEMPERATURE-80 degrees F (three heaters in bottom of sump)
LIGHTING-Compact Fluorescent 20 x 36w bulbs 720 watts total at 3wpg, 10 hours per day (canopy cooled by two electric computer fans drawing heat out
SUBSTRATE-75% Fluorite, 25% Profile, 3"-4" deep no vacuuming
CO2- 2 tanks injected, 1 tank feeds a diffuser pumped by a mini power head in the aquarium at 1 bps, 2nd tank feeds a DIY unit that is inline with clean return water from sump at 1 bps. The unit is filled with bio balls and seems to break up the CO2 quite well. This is all pumped back into the aquarium. It is clear to see the tiny bubbles throughout the water column.
H2O-This has changed over time. I initially filled with 100% RO/DI, this created blue algae problems and other hard to handle situations. I then went to a 50/50 mix of RO/DI and tap. I just recently changed back to 50/50 from 100% tap. Weekly water changes of 20%
FERTILIZER-Jobe Stix (palm and fern) for deep rooted plants, Flourish w/o iron, KNO3 daily as per PMMD, K2SO4 per PMMD. Basically, KNO3 and K2SO4 are dosed together at 1 cup per day figuring there is an additional 25 gallons or so in the sump.

VITALS-
PH-7.5-8.0
NH3/NH4-<0.3mg/l
KH-3dH
GH-7dH
NO3-80ppm
CO2-2mg/l

Now, I suspect that the reason for the NO3 being so high is the PMMD dosing. I recently used AmQuel plus to bring the nitrates down, but that hasn't worked. I also used Seachems Neutral Regulator for 7.0 pH, but that hasn't made an effect either. One dosing of each so far.

There are no stem plants in this tank, all rooted except for the Java fern, which btw is very very small and stays that way.

Aside from the brown algae and slow growth rate, most plants remain small and some older leaves on the Amazons fade with a touch of yellow. Some of the C. balanse have fallen off after becoming mush and transparent. I had tried several other ground covers like Glosso and dwarf Hair grass, but they just disappear. In my older smaller tanks, I had to trim the hair grass often to keep it in check.

I am hoping this is enough info for some of you to help me here as this is way more work than I ever expected. I don't mind the maintenance, but the results are poor and that is discouraging. I was thinking of tearing it all down and starting over by changing the content of the substrate since most plants are crypts and swords.

Here are some pictures to give you an idea of what the present state is. A couple of pics of the plumbing as well.

Thank you in advance for any help offered!

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

A couple things come up. Most obvious is that with pH in the range of 7.5-8.0 and KH of 3 degrees you have less than 3 ppm of CO2. That's about the same concentration you might get without adding CO2. You can grow a lot of plants with 3 ppm of CO2 but they will grow slowly.

The amount of fertilizer you're adding appears to be way out of line with the amount of growth you might expect from a tank with 3 ppm of CO2. If you want to keep the CO2 levels that low then you need to cut way back on the fertilizer. Depending on the fish load very little fertilizer may actually be needed. Your nitrate levels are so high because your dose is too large.

To balance things you should either increase the CO2 levels in the tank or decrease the fertilizer additions.

It's hard for me to grasp the amount of potassium nitrate and potassium sulfate that you're adding to the tank. The "1 cup per day" isn't dry fertilizer, is it? If not, then how is the KNO3+K2SO4 solution mixed?

The plant density in your tank is quite low. To suppress algae you probably need a more plant-dominated setup. That means 2-3 times the plant density that you have now.

Seachem's Neutral regulator is a phosphate-based buffer. It's a good thing to avoid in a planted tank. If you want to lower the pH then do so by increasing the CO2 level. That will also increase the plant's growth rate and increase their demands for nutrients.


Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

OK..right! I agree, I need more CO2 and lower PH levels. With the CO2 set up I have, I would think I would get lot's of CO2 into the water column. If I increase the bps output, I just get large bubbles that float to the surface from either CO2 set up. 

I am moving back towards a higher % RO/DI to lower the PH content, but need to find the happy medium for the GH and KH, so much so, that the KH does not decrease.

Dosing is per the PMMD as in 1.5 cups of distilled water, 1 tsp of KNO3 and 2 tsp of K2SO4.

I have tried to get a larger plant load, but again, that is the problem, I can't keep planting and losing plants. If the plants I have will grow, there will be no need for more plants.

So the question is, how do I get more CO2 into the water column? What am I doing wrong there as all else will then be acceptable?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:If I increase the bps output, I just get large bubbles that float to the surface from either CO2 set up.


That sounds like a mechanical problem for your reactors. Perhaps the flow-through rate for the inline reactor is too high? Of course you wouldn't have the same problem with the other reactor.



> quote:I am moving back towards a higher % RO/DI to lower the PH content, but need to find the happy medium for the GH and KH, so much so, that the KH does not decrease.


You probably shouldn't go much lower than you current 3 degrees KH. There isn't much inherent value in getting pH down to 7 or below. Plant tanks are often kept to lower pH values because it is an indicator of good CO2 levels, not because the lower pH is good. As near as I can tell 20 ppm of CO2 works like 20 ppm of CO2 regardless of whether the pH is 6.8 (KH 4) or 7.4 (KH 15).



> quoteosing is per the PMMD as in 1.5 cups of distilled water, 1 tsp of KNO3 and 2 tsp of K2SO4.


By dosing 1 cup of this mix per day you are adding the equivalent of 2/3 tsp of dry KNO3/day. By contrast, my 150 gallon tank needs 1 tsp of KNO3 per *week* to keep NO3 in the 5-10 ppm range. It's no wonder that your nitrate levels are high. Also, you shouldn't need to add K2SO4.



> quote:So the question is, how do I get more CO2 into the water column? What am I doing wrong there as all else will then be acceptable?


It doesn't sound like you need to do much or could do much to reduce CO2 losses. It sounds to me like your reactors just don't have the capacity to add much more CO2 than they are handling now. You would need different reactors. In both of my CO2-injected tanks I bubble CO2 into the inlet of the canister filters. They have a pretty good capacity. With such a large tank I could see getting something like a Fluval 304, packing it with coarse media and using it just as a CO2 reactor. Another option might be to use a glass diffuser in the tank instead of a reactor. Glass diffusers (Eheim or ADA, for instance) have the reputation for delivering very high CO2 levels, sometimes at the cost of wasting CO2, being difficult to regulate and needing regular cleaning.

Are you adding any chelated iron?

Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

OK Roger, I figured I would try to turn the CO2 up a bit to see what happens. I went to 2 bps on the inline and 3 bps on the intank.

Here is a pic of the intank [email protected] set up.










Here is a pic of the returns after I turned up the inline. There are a few larger bubbles, but mowst are small and circulating through the water column.










I know I need to be at 3dH on the KH, so I will monitor to maintain.

I will cut back on the dosing and delete the K2SO4

I add Flourish w/o iron to the tank 2 times per week.

I like the idea of a canister just for CO2, but let me see how things go here since the tweak of the CO2 today.

As always, your help is pricless Roger. I thank you!

Keith


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

Your in tank CO2 reactor setup is fine for say a 30gal. I use to use the same thing in my 30gal. It will not do much for a tank your size. I don't use them now I just couldn't get my CO2 levels up to the high levels I wanted. (30ppm) I switched to a Fluval 304 with a aqua medic 1000 inline external reactor. They work extremely well for me. I use this setup on a 75gal, 36gal, and 30gal. As Roger said you really need to get your CO2 up. After getting your NO3 levels down you need more fast growing stem plant. You don't have to keep them but you need them to help get the tank stable.

Hawk


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Thanks for the info Hawk. I was looking around today for another way to get CO2 into the tank.

I did a water change this morning and I turned up the CO2 per my last post. I just now checked the vitals and my PH is at 7.25 and the KH is 3dH giving me 5 mg/l of CO2 concentration. Not sure how that works out to ppm.

Looks like I am headed down the right track now.

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Keith,

Your inline reactor really shouldn't be spewing CO2 bubbles back into the tank. The CO2 should be dissolved before it gets to the tank. Too much is lost when those bubbles rise to the surface.

It is fairly common that when plants get to really bubbling and the oxygen levels are high that low pressure in pumps and filters will cause bubbles to form and those bubbles will cloud the water. Those bubbles aren't CO2 bubbles. They're mostly oxygen and water vapor. If your getting bubbles coming out of the CO2 reactor when the lights are first turned on or at other times when the oxygen levels aren't super high then that is a problem.


Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

OK, back to the drawing board here. I need to find a different way to get major dissolved CO2 into the water then. I was thinking all of those bubbles floating through the water column was CO2. This has probably been my biggest problem. I am going to find a canister filter tomorrow and try that route. I am thinking of just running a tube from inside the tank to the canister and then back to the tank and not through the inline filter system for the time being. Since I have a 1000gph pump, I may be fighting a battle that can't be won with an inline installation.

I will report back. Thank you!

Keith


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Arrrgghhh!!! I am getting very frustrated here as I am quite visural and mechanical. However, this is kicking my butt!

#1- I went out and got a Fluval 304 (not cheap)and I set it up to draw and feed the sump water. I placed the outlet right near the inlet to the 1000gph recirculating pump which feeds right into the aquarium. I figured the additional churn of the 1000gph would help dissolve any left over CO2. I fed the CO2 tube up into the inlet of the fluval. Inside the fluval is the coarse foam, 2 full trays of ceramic media and 1 tray of lava rock. 2 bps, otherwise the CO2 comes out the outlet in large bubbles.

#2- I built a large in tank reactor with sponge similiar to the Florida driftwood reactor. I have a Rio 200 blowing water into it with 2 bps.

Here is a pic of it...










Both of the above have made no difference! PH is STILL 7.5 w/KH 3dH. No pearling what so ever.

I even tried using another Rio 200 to break up the CO2 before it enters the Fluval.

I would have thought I would be choking the tank with CO2 at this point. I am really stumped! I have tried turning up all of the CO2 and that does not help.

Could something else be wrong here?

Keith


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I know you have made an effort to keep the turbulence down in your sump, but I still have to wonder if it might cause big losses. You could eliminate that possibility by turning off your big pump and putting the Fluval w/CO2 directly into the tank. I know that it inadequate circulation for your tank, so it can't be kept like that permanently, but you should be able to keep it that way long enough to eliminate your sump as part of the problem.

I found that the Fluval foam blocks used as the first stage filter clogged very quickly and required a lot more maintenance then I wanted to give. I took them out and cut them down to fit into the top media basket. With the foam blocks working as a final filter the system has a lot less tendency to clog.

When using the Fluval just as a CO2 reactor there's probably no need to use the foam blocks at all.


Roger Miller


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## shogsten (Mar 17, 2005)

A couple of questions (note I am far from an expert on this but experience is beating it into me quickly). I think one thing to keep in mind is that there isn't any one "recipe" that works for everyone. This board gives some very good advice but there are some others out there that are questionable. 

1. You haven't added any PH buffers to your water have you ?
2. Have you verified that your PH test kit is reading correctly ? Have you verified all of test kits ? A quick trip to the LFS can give you a second set of points to compare against.
3. What is the bubble count at the reactor and at the fluval ? 
4. Have you tried running your reactor/fluval in a 5 gallon bucket ? This would help to verify that it is working. Things happen a lot faster in a bucket 

I wonder if the RIO 200 might not be enough pump to really drive the C02. It's going to take a lot of C02 to get your C02 levels up.

Scott


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Roger, while laying in bed last night, it occured to me that the filter system may be the problem....as you say. I just may be losing the CO2 quickly. Do you think that the 1000gph pump is too much for a planted tank. It fits the rule of turning the tank capacity 4 times per hour, but is it really necessary in a plant tank? Maybe I need a less powerful pump. I do have a ball valve on the return end of the pump to slow down the flow rate.

Looks like I need to do some more experimenting. I will see what the Fluval does by itself.

Scott, I used 2 different test kits and they are both the same. It is apparent that the plants are not pearling and that is what I am looking for.

Florida Driftwood recommends a Rio 50 for their reactor and it handles 50-200+ gallon tanks. I made mine just a bit longer for overkill with a stronger pump.

BPS is 2-3 on both reactors.

Keith


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

I use a 1000gph rated pump on my 100gallon to drive the wet/dry filter, with a ball valve to close it about half way to 2/3. I have a DIY CO2 reactor in the sump from a Python vacuum tube driven by a powerhead, no problem. I stuff the opening of the tube with polyester padding material to prevent the CO2 from escaping. Works fine. With good nutrient dosing, the water column is free of floating algae and the polyester stuffing does not clog up. I don't have a problem getting CO2 to any level I want. Wet/dry/Sump does not cause that much CO2 loss(George Booth did a controlled study on that) unless there is other surface splashing.

BTW, 2-3 BPS is not enough for such a large tank, but still you should get more CO2 reading as is.

Scott's bucket suggestion is a good test to run.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

Here is a pic of how I use a Fluval 304 with a external reactor in my 75gal and a 36gal. I know they are smaller tanks but am sure this will work for you.








My tap water is ph=7.8 using this setup I have ph=6.6-6.8 with 2-3 bubbles/sec. I have had it even lower.

Hawk


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:Originally posted by liquidgardens:
> Do you think that the 1000gph pump is too much for a planted tank. It fits the rule of turning the tank capacity 4 times per hour, but is it really necessary in a plant tank?


It's a long-standing recommendation that healthy planted tanks do not need as much filtration as fish-only aquariums.

In my experience, heavy filtration isn't necessary. I've kept all of my planted tanks completely without filtration for extended periods. It works, but I wouldn't go back to doing it on a permanent basis. Unfiltered and lightly filtered tanks are not as stable as tanks with a good biological filter. But I don't think that 4X per hour is necessary to get that stabilization.

If your sump is causing a lot of CO2 loss then it probably isn't just the flow rate that is causing it; as you can see from other posts there are people who use pretty high turnover rates in their tanks. If your system is causing undue losses then it is probably because of some detail of the system. That is why I suggest shutting off the circulation through your sump for a while. If that cures the problem then you know there is some detail in your sump setup that you need to change. If instead you tweak details of your sump setup first then you might spend a lot of time on it only to find out that it wasn't a problem with the sump after all.

Roger Miller


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

I want to thank all of you for the suggestive help. Because of this, I have achieved relative success!

It was the circulation pump and sump. I remedied this by cutting back the pump flow with the previously installed ball valve. I would say I am at 6-700gph now. The biggest problem was the overflow built into the tank and then getting that water down to the sump at a slower rate. The sump drain bulkhead is 1.5" and that is what I have been using as far as PVC plumbing. Mind you, there are other factors involved as to not allow the water to drain too fast or not fast enough causing tank over flow. This has been a tough balance to achieve over time. 

What I did today, was create a stand pipe to the level of the water surface I needed and then have a couple smaller drilled holes in the pipe below. Should these smaller wholes become clogged, the top of the stand pipe prevents overflow and water just pours through the top.

In the sump, I reduced to 1/2" tubing which creates back pressure to maintain the water level in the overflow. Any aggitation at this point is minimal. The 1/2" tube is submerged in the sump and is covered by a course layer of filter fabric to catch any possible air bubbles.

Trust me when I tell you, that this has been quite a game to finally get to this point with the sump plumbing!

At this time, many plants are giving off oxygen bubbles, but no pearling as of yet. I have achieved 7.0 PH with 3dH. Yahoooo!

Not sure where that puts me in ppm, but the chart that I have says I am at 10 mg/l.

Now I get to sit back and watch what happens. I will be making fine tuning adjustments to get the tank to look like a champagne glass.

Thanks again for all of the help and if you have anymore suggestions, please post them.

Keith


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Today I made a reactor for the Fluval. Sump water is pulled into the reactor with the CO2 attached to it and then pulled into the Fluval and returning to the sump. I filled it with lava rock and it seems to be working just great! Both CO2 tanks are now around 3bps. I get some loss, but I am not complaining.

I checked my PH level and it is down to 6.75!!!

Now it's time to watch things finally take off and grow lush.

(big smiles!)

Keith


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