# monte carlo in my NPT



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

*monte carlo in my NPT, rice as alternative carbon decomposition source*

good days folks, the last thread i posted mainly about my curiousity on how to increase bacterial decomposition with bioball so that the co2 level in NPT would increase. i'm grateful that several experienced aquarist shared their view on the topic, including miss diana walstad her self (such an honor for me). i did really try adding some cooked rice on my sump filter, but couple months ago the sump filter was broken, so i changed my filtration to internal filter and added some rice there. the rice will dissipate in 2-3 weeks. here is my 6 months NPT


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

How exactly does that rice dosing work? Do you have any idea what amount of CO2 is being released? Do you measure elevated levels of ammonia and or nitrite/nitrate in the water? 

Per your photo I see mostly slow growing plants, do you find increasing levels of CO2 necessary?


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

mysiak said:


> How exactly does that rice dosing work? Do you have any idea what amount of CO2 is being released? Do you measure elevated levels of ammonia and or nitrite/nitrate in the water?


well, on diana's book she mentioned that the source of co2 after the depletion the original organic carbon in the soil are the fish food. when we examined the composition she wrote on the book, it is clear that fish food as a carbon source contain much more nitrogen than the carbon as the planted tank needed. so i tried to find an alternative source for organic decomposition. rice mostly contain carbohydrate, and some micro minerals such as selenium. so i think it would be a great option.

on my observation for 2-3 weeks with co2 indicator, i never found the indicator get greener than dark green. so i think the dissipation process were very slow. as for nitrite and nitrate, there were no effect at all.



mysiak said:


> Per your photo I see mostly slow growing plants, do you find increasing levels of CO2 necessary?


well, i keep monte carlo, downoi, and pogostemon erectus here. the plants that from most information in the net were said to be needing co2 injection (i have to admit my downoi were rather small). although i know a lot of people succeeded growing them in NPT. but mostly my motivation is just for my curiosity.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

here is how i put the rice on internal filter.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

here is how i put rice in my filter


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I've been adding small amounts several types of simple sugars in my tank. It seems to work.


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

*Re: monte carlo in my NPT, rice as alternative carbon decomposition source*

Interesting idea. I'll probably try it too.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You can do some rough monitoring of the CO2 in the water by using a drop checker with 0.5 dKH water in it. See:


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

tantaMD said:


> well, on diana's book she mentioned that the source of co2 after the depletion the original organic carbon in the soil are the fish food. when we examined the composition she wrote on the book, it is clear that fish food as a carbon source contain much more nitrogen than the carbon as the planted tank needed. so i tried to find an alternative source for organic decomposition. rice mostly contain carbohydrate, and some micro minerals such as selenium. so i think it would be a great option.
> 
> on my observation for 2-3 weeks with co2 indicator, i never found the indicator get greener than dark green. so i think the dissipation process were very slow. as for nitrite and nitrate, there were no effect at all.
> 
> well, i keep monte carlo, downoi, and pogostemon erectus here. the plants that from most information in the net were said to be needing co2 injection (i have to admit my downoi were rather small). although i know a lot of people succeeded growing them in NPT. but mostly my motivation is just for my curiosity.


I am truly impressed! Yes, rice is a carbohydrate with not much nitrogen that should add CO2 slowly to the tank for finicky growers like Monte Carlo. It's so nice to see someone using the NPT concepts and showing the results. Thank you for posting!


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

tantaMD said:


> well, on diana's book she mentioned that the source of co2 after the depletion the original organic carbon in the soil are the fish food. when we examined the composition she wrote on the book, it is clear that fish food as a carbon source contain much more nitrogen than the carbon as the planted tank needed. so i tried to find an alternative source for organic decomposition. rice mostly contain carbohydrate, and some micro minerals such as selenium. so i think it would be a great option.
> 
> on my observation for 2-3 weeks with co2 indicator, i never found the indicator get greener than dark green. so i think the dissipation process were very slow. as for nitrite and nitrate, there were no effect at all.
> 
> well, i keep monte carlo, downoi, and pogostemon erectus here. the plants that from most information in the net were said to be needing co2 injection (i have to admit my downoi were rather small). although i know a lot of people succeeded growing them in NPT. but mostly my motivation is just for my curiosity.


wow, this is quite outside-of-the-box thinking. I guess this stuff needs some more testing, maybe I will also give a try with some more CO2 demanding plants. Probably takes quite some time to run this experiment because newly established tanks probably have quite reasonable CO2 levels due to fresh soil. I did have an eleocharis pravula NPT once, but it did not grow as a very dense carpet (still, it looked quite OK).

Do you prepare the rice somehow, or you just dump it in?

Nice tank you have! In the front, your substrate seems to be quite thin, did you follow the "usual" soil - gravel recommendation? (say 1" soil and 1" or a bit more gravel)


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This is very interesting, and is closely related to the discussion here: https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/143535-thoughts-walstad-method.html

My guess is that _Micranthemum tweediei_ is an obligate emergent species in nature, and won't thrive in a Walstad tank after the initial high CO2 levels go down. I suspect that some _Eleocharis_ species are similar. Maybe the rice boosts the CO2 levels just enough for these?


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> I am truly impressed! Yes, rice is a carbohydrate with not much nitrogen that should add CO2 slowly to the tank for finicky growers like Monte Carlo. It's so nice to see someone using the NPT concepts and showing the results. Thank you for posting!


thank you diana, this the result of my experiment which i promised to show on my previous thread. at first i was throwing some fish food on my filter daily which resulted on algae disaster. on my desperation rice came up to my mind


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

zolteeC said:


> wow, this is quite outside-of-the-box thinking. I guess this stuff needs some more testing, maybe I will also give a try with some more CO2 demanding plants. Probably takes quite some time to run this experiment because newly established tanks probably have quite reasonable CO2 levels due to fresh soil. I did have an eleocharis pravula NPT once, but it did not grow as a very dense carpet (still, it looked quite OK).
> 
> Do you prepare the rice somehow, or you just dump it in?
> 
> Nice tank you have! In the front, your substrate seems to be quite thin, did you follow the "usual" soil - gravel recommendation? (say 1" soil and 1" or a bit more gravel)


thank you zolteeC. i cooked the rice until it is quite soft and than squish it with stone before i put them on the filter.

i dont quite follow the 1:1 rule between soil and gravel. the gravel rather just a thin layer that capped the soil.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

Michael said:


> This is very interesting, and is closely related to the discussion here: https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/143535-thoughts-walstad-method.html
> 
> My guess is that _Micranthemum tweediei_ is an obligate emergent species in nature, and won't thrive in a Walstad tank after the initial high CO2 levels go down. I suspect that some _Eleocharis_ species are similar. Maybe the rice boosts the CO2 levels just enough for these?


yes, it could be like that, or i'm just getting lucky i don't know  . i hope a lot of other hobbyist try this too, (better with more systematic experiment) so we could get strong affirmation on the effectiveness of this method.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

here is my latest downoi growth, the one that doesn't shaded by other plant had pretty decent growth


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

tantaMD, how large is the tank, and how much cooked rice did you use? I want to get an idea of how much to use if I try the experiment. Thanks!


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

Michael said:


> tantaMD, how large is the tank, and how much cooked rice did you use? I want to get an idea of how much to use if I try the experiment. Thanks!


the tank size is 70x30x35 cm. i use about 2/3 teaspoon cooked rice


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks! So about 2/3 teaspoon in a 20 gallon. I'm glad I asked because I would have guessed more than that.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

Michael said:


> Thanks! So about 2/3 teaspoon in a 20 gallon. I'm glad I asked because I would have guessed more than that.


i dont know, perhaps more is better, or less is already enough. it is the first time i done this. i think its better if other hobbyist experimenting different amount and share us the results


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Wow, amazing growth


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> Wow, amazing growth


thank you!!


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

here is today after water change and refilling my rice


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

What's your lighting condition? I thinking of getting foreground plants again since my loaches are gone.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

tantaMD said:


> here is today after water change and refilling my rice


Your tank looks great and I love the idea of adding cooked rice to the filter.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> What's your lighting condition? I thinking of getting foreground plants again since my loaches are gone.


15 watt led on 20 gallon. combination of 10 watt 4000 K and 5 watt 6500 K. the tank height is 35 cm


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

dwalstad said:


> Your tank looks great and I love the idea of adding cooked rice to the filter.


thank you miss walstad


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

an update today. the tank is 7 months old. i should report the problem i encounter recently. the powerhead i used was broken 2 days ago so i change it with the new one. i suspect it was because partial obstruction caused by the rice i put in internal filter (the powerhead was the smallest one though). so the downside of the method i use is the powerhead wouldnt last as long as it should. i hope someone who also try this method make a modification an overcome this problem 😊


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

tantaMD said:


> an update today. the tank is 7 months old. i should report the problem i encounter recently. the powerhead i used was broken 2 days ago so i change it with the new one. i suspect it was because partial obstruction caused by the rice i put in internal filter (the powerhead was the smallest one though). so the downside of the method i use is the powerhead wouldnt last as long as it should. i hope someone who also try this method make a modification an overcome this problem &#128522;


Tank looks great. I am curious to see how it progresses in the long term. In my tanks usually I see some shift towards more robust plants after 8-12 months. But this rice thing may work fine in the long term....


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Tanta, do you think putting the rice in a porous bag, then placing that in a hang-on-back filter or canister filter would work?


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

Michael said:


> Tanta, do you think putting the rice in a porous bag, then placing that in a hang-on-back filter or canister filter would work?


well, the original idea was to increase decomposition by increasing the organic material and the surface contact area with the decomposing bacteria. thats why i put the rice on several layers. i think by putting the rice on a porous bag, perhaps the 2nd point would not be achieved. but who knows until we give it a try &#128522;


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

a bit changing last night. i replace most of erectus with rotala sp. vietnam, prunned some of crypto leaves that gets too high, also trying new fish combination amandae tetra and micro devario kubotai 😊


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Beautiful aquascape! Do you leave the algae on the glass next to the substrate intentionally? Why? I'm asking because I will soon set up my tank as a el natural tank, and there is a lot for me to learn.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice tank!


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

hoppycalif said:


> Beautiful aquascape! Do you leave the algae on the glass next to the substrate intentionally? Why? I'm asking because I will soon set up my tank as a el natural tank, and there is a lot for me to learn.


no i din't left it intentionally. ifts just so hard to clean it without damaging the montecarlo


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

added some new downoi tonight, because all my shaded downoi had withered ( but the unshaded have decent growth). lets see how things go


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

update on my tank. downoi leaves has fully evolved to submersed form


----------



## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

tantaMD said:


> update on my tank. downoi leaves has fully evolved to submersed form


Please keep on the updates. We are curious to see how this scape develops over time.


----------



## Am2020 (Sep 10, 2019)

A little info about carbon dosing. This is very common in reef keeping. First took off with vodka dosing and then expanded into a mixture of vodka+sugar+vinegar. Later people started using starches like corn and rice. Now most reefers use bio pellets in a reactor. The consensus is that the majority of the carbon comes from the bacteria that feed on the carbon sources. The carbon sources alone don't produce much carbon but the bacteria do. Biggest problem with this method is the increase phosphates and the cyanobacteria bacteria bloom that follows. In freshwater tank this can cause a blue/green algae bloom.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

an update after 13 months. actually due to life bussiness this tank is kind of a bit neglected. the rotala vietnam and crypts was taking over the tank, and i was unable to do a massive trimming until today. the downoi is dying. i think the main factor to keep downoi alive in npt is a good lighting in their area. here my downoi was shaded by rotala and crypts. but i was still able to clean my filter and also put rice in it, although not as consistent as before. and here as you can see my montecarlo is alive and still spreading although not in their optimal shape. i leave it to the attendants of this forum and for this thread, to have opinion about this method of increasing co2 in npt and moreover to try it their own. the clear downside of this method from my experience is that the submersile pump is quickly broken, as the decomposing rice appears to partially blocked the flow.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

You could put the rice in nylons..those dollar store knee highs. Also,this might be the first I've heard of rice,but the usual problem with aquarists is they don't use enough of something to make a difference. Its the old "just enough"..rather then come in make a splash. Try a ball of it? If it goes bad at all? yank it out fast and make a water change..
I know of the Vodka,surprised people would risk that.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

@Stan510 well the problem that i always encounter right now is easily broken pumps moat likely because of clogging. i think increasing the amount of rice will just make this problem comes more often. unless i can put a larger pump. but i think that would disrupt the whole scape in my tank.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Seems like you are working hard and still not getting the results you want. Plant species used for aquascape (Monte Carlo, etc) are not good growers. When you try to accommodate a non-competitive plant species like this, it often results in failure. These species are best suited for tanks with CO2 injection and constant management (fertilizers, water changes, CO2 injection).

If you want an NPT, encourage the growth of plants like the Crypts and Rotala that are doing well in this tank. Try adding a few other trusted growers--Red Tiger Lotus, Sagittaria, etc. They may not be as exciting, but good growth is better than dying plants and the need for adding stuff like cooked rice to a filter.


----------



## tantaMD (Dec 23, 2011)

miss @dwalstad i think the result i want is the conclusion of my experiment. i think my conclusion right now is monte carlo can be grown in an npt, with carefull planning of the light, height of the tank, and other companion plants. and adding the rice on the filter could help raising the carbon source for the monte carlo. but with this, comes extra work that commonly can be avoided in classic NPT. this where i failed to fulfill these couple months due to life bussiness. im satisfied that i can complete my little experiment, but now i can say im more comfortable with classic type of NPT. it suited more for my daily life. 👍


----------



## Pendulum (Oct 13, 2014)

Hi all,

have someone ever tried addig starch powder to the aquarium as CO2 source? Maybe in a daily routine like adding fishfood


----------

