# On going troubles.... light and CO2



## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I'm putting up another post in hopes of improving the growth in my tank.... I have posted here in the past amoung other forums about issues in my tank. Its been probably coming up on 2 years of trying to get the growth I know is possible. However things still arnt looking up. There have been periods where things looked better... only to fall short again in the end.

Alright... I have trouble in ALL of my tanks, non CO2 soil substrate, tanks with simple potted plants, and of course the one I would really like to fix my 75 gallon.

-Its an estimated 60 gallon water volume.
-260 watts PC lighting/12 hours a day
-GH 5-6 degrees, KH is 2 from tap.... buffered to 4 with baking soda at WC
-50% weekly water change
-Dense plant mass with high water circulation via eheim 2217 and an additional 2 power heads placed to blow through the dense plant groupings
-Ferts are dosed daily... I adopted PPS fert solutions though I dont really follow the PPS method. again EVERYTHING is dosed daily...
~10ml SS (1.1ppm N/.4ppm P)
~30ml PF (3.3ppm N)
~7.5ml traces
~.1 ppm Mg

Thats a total of 
~.7 Mg added weekly
~2.8ppm P weekly
~30.8ppm N
~and close to 1ml per gallon/per week of traces (rotated between CSM+B and flourish)

This is pressurized CO2.... have been told over and over, espically by Barr that it isnt possible that it has anything to do with nutrients.... and that its a CO2 issue. Well I have been chasing that BS for the past two years... I have tried the mist method, Internal venturi reactors, and inline reactors (what Im using now) I have killed entire tanks of fish from pushing to far.... I have REGLOUSILY tested PH levels via a Hanna PH meter EVERYDAY for months watching plants, and fish....bumping up bubble rates trying to get that "optium" level. It hasnt made any world of difference as far as "deficiency issues go.... may have impact on BBA, and stunting of tips... how ever Im really not convinced. I am running some where between a 1.4-1.6 drop in PH using the "degassed tank water" method.... also running yellow by mid day using the dropchecker with a KH of 5. 

Despite that by the end of the day my PH is around 6.1 and I know i can push it down to 6.0, or even 5.9 with out the fish gasping... though it is clearly visable at those lower levels they arnt really happy, just more or less tolerating it.

Now for the problems.... I get stunting, a LOT of it it comes and goes... Possibly a CO2 thing and that I do understand.... I just swiched to a new reactor.... and moved from the intake, to the output of my canister..... I can see it works much better and I get more consistant CO2 through the day. it no longer has a .5 PH shift through the day, more like a .1 or .2 shift **DOWN**.... my PH has NEVER gone up during the photo period... it ALWAYS drops lower? Anyway so CO2 seems more stable.... that has only been about a week in the works so its going to need more time as far as effect on stunting issues and BBA

I also have had an on going issue with pale/yellowish new growth. Looks much Like Fe issue, though it doesnt appear to be helped by addition of more traces.... Again maybe I just never stuck with it long enough, how ever it seems Like I should be adding enough?

I have also had issues with the older leaves of my plants, most noticable with hygrophila corymbosa, but also with the rest. The leaves get pinholes, followed by yellowing of the entire leaf, soon there followed by a transpearnt dead area near the base of the leaf.... and the leaf falling off the plant. This appears to happen whenever I start to dose Mg again. I have long chased the to much Mg causes stunting deal.... Im not convinced with that at all. However I have noticed realation between addition of just .7 ppm Mg a week, and the die off of old leaves. Either lifting limiting conditions and causing something to bottom out/ or blocking K...... i have no clue....

For the past few months I have also had an on going issue with either mild green water, or bacteria blooms... Comes and goes..... comes and goes.... I dont know which it is.... never gets green, thick like green water usually does.... however it is clearly green.

Again this tank is the one I really care about and want to get fixed up.... however in some for or another I have some or all of these syptoms in all my other tanks.... Its extremely frustrating. I should add I also use a carbon in line style tap water filter, the type used for an ice machine to remove any possible heavy metals etc. from my tap water. Any ideas at all? im going to try to post some pics of the older leaves here in a few minutes..... thanks guys...


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

these really arnt very good pics at all... But I dont have a good cam so they will have to do. Just gives you a general Idea of whats going on with the old growth. This is from the hygro and is the most extreme of it. though all the other plants show it in different degrees...


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

You should be keeping a pH below 6.2 via CO2. Your hygro suggests a lack of N and K. Your dosing of N is very low...In my 75g I have to dose at least 6 ppm per day, but I would start at 4 ppm and go from there. The pinholes indicate a lack of K. Tom B. says the K from KNO3 & and KH2PO4 is enough, but I grow the exact same Hygro you pictured, and increased K (via K2SO4) will solve that problem. Try this and see what happens.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi
First problem is the light. You have 260W PC above 75 gallon at 3.5 Wpg for 12 hours. More light is always better but the period is too long. Change it to 10 hours for the next week and then to 8 the week after. 
Next is your baking soda. You should be happy to have KH of only 2 degree. Discontinue the baking soda, you don't need it. 

_


MrSanders said:



This is pressurized CO2.... have been told over and over, espically by Barr that it isnt possible that it has anything to do with nutrients.... and that its a CO2 issue. Well I have been chasing that BS for the past two years... I have tried the mist method, Internal venturi reactors, and inline reactors (what Im using now) I have killed entire tanks of fish from pushing to far.... I have REGLOUSILY tested PH levels via a Hanna PH meter EVERYDAY for months watching plants, and fish....bumping up bubble rates trying to get that "optium" level. It hasnt made any world of difference as far as "deficiency issues gos...

Click to expand...

_ I agree with you. The ongoing CO2 hysteria was introduced and has been repeated by many in almost every post as the universal fix to all problems. On the contrary, if CO2 is decreased and water changes discontinued for 4 to 6 weeks, water becomes clear, algae completely disappears and plants grow healthy and clean.

Set up your CO2 to 1 bubble per second and make sure it dissolves. pH bellow 6.8 is preferred. 
Higher water flow is beneficial with filtration. Then setup aeration, the smallest amount of air you can control. 
Carbon inline filtration from tap is a great way of getting rid of chlorine and other poisonous chemicals. Slower flow produces cleaner water. No need to add any de-chlorinators and conditioners. Change as much water as possible 90%+ and start fresh.

Daily morning dose:
SS 4 ml 
PF 8 ml
Mg 1 ml
TE 4 ml

Your plants will go through changes. New clean growth will replace the old. 
Consistency is your objective.

Thank you
Edward


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

> Avalon - You should be keeping a pH below 6.2 via CO2. Your hygro suggests a lack of N and K. Your dosing of N is very low...In my 75g I have to dose at least 6 ppm per day, but I would start at 4 ppm and go from there. The pinholes indicate a lack of K. Tom B. says the K from KNO3 & and KH2PO4 is enough, but I grow the exact same Hygro you pictured, and increased K (via K2SO4) will solve that problem. Try this and see what happens.


 Thanks, but if your read my post you would see that my PH is below 6.2 I really can not drop it much more... if I do the fish gasp and will die eventually. I dont have to kill fish to grow plants. and if I do then this hobby isnt for me. You can also see I am already currently adding 4.4 ppm N per day, and when using PPS solutions there is a good amount of K in the mix so aditional K via K2SO4 is being added. I dont know I appriciate the advice but I dont see a lot of people here doseing 42 ppm N per week to grow nice plants... Maybe it is so and I need that much, you very well could be right. However I have dosed heavy in the past.... it did not solve my problems. Im going to try something different before I go back to the dump and flush method. It has not worked for me.

Edward... I appriciate your advice I suppose now would be a good time to set up a thread in the PPS forum. Like I already mentioned all the things in the past just really havnt proved to work out very well for me. Espically not over a long period. So i am ready to try something new and see how it works. I am free today so im going to go ahead and clean any algae I can, do the large waterchange set timers back and start fresh. And the baking soda.... I never felt I really did need it. Its just that the CO2 fix everyone recommends was pushing my PH SOOOO low I started adding it... with out it my PH would be down some where around 5.2 or so....



> Then setup aeration, the smallest amount of air you can control.


 Im sorry not really following you on that one?

anyway. This may turn into more of a mess than it already is... or hey it's so crazy it may just work  either way I dont really care.... I have more or less failed for the past 2 years I have been trying.... in the end im going to learn something so it will be worth it.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A cheap suggestion which might help eliminate any doubts about the CO2 being adequate is to try a "drop checker" using it as outlined in http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/do-it-yourself/32100-diy-drop-checker.html
Once you determine that you really do have about 30-40 ppm of CO2 in the water, you don't need to address that any more. At that point I would give the EI dosing scheme a try. What do you have to lose by doing so?


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

As stated in my post i am ALREADY using a drop checker.... it appears that CO2 is fine by that method, the degassed sample method, AND my fish.... they wont tolerate any more.



> At that point I would give the EI dosing scheme a try. What do you have to lose by doing so?


 Well what do I have to loose? nothing good point. What do I have to gain? nothing another good point. I HAVE been doing EI for the past 2 years... and struggled the entire time with poor plant growth. I tried various amounts of ferts.... adding more didnt make things better. So i chased the CO2 thing.... like I already talked about..... more CO2 didnt seem to help either....

I really an not trying to come off sounding like a ****..... however these things were already stated in my post, and I am more or less looking for constructive DIFFERENT ideas. Edward has done so.... and the whole PPS dosing things goes agaisnt everything I have been doing in the past.

The past hasnt worked so clearly I suppose what Edward has to offer is worth looking into. Im not trying to say what other have suggested wont work. Im just speaking from expierence..... in the past it hasnt. I dont see why it would now? Why keep doing the same thing, expecting to get different reslutes?


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

I been having similar problems for ages (yellowing, melting hygrophilas, stressed ferns, BGA, Green-Brown dust algae), using high CO2, tons of light and a truck load of ferts in the column and I now seem to have resolved 90% of them so maybe I can be of help.
As Edward said lower you light I would say keep it at 7 hours a day.
Stop the huge WC try 30% weekly incrementally 2-3 times or even stop for a week or 2. Lower your CO2 so you get a ph 0.6 less of your overnight degaussed water. 30.8ppm NO3 weekly is too much I bet you by the end of the week before the WC you have more than 60 ppm NO3 in your tank (most tests suck on this ranges).
I always correlate high NO3 with dust algae and other bacterial kind of infestations, I would say do not add more than 2 ppm NO3 daily and even that can be to much with smaller WC. Iron as I have said before in postings is always doing the disappearing act for me (0.1 ppm is usual), I find I have to add tons to get a decent reading in the colorimeter (all the tests are done with it), iron really does a huge difference in the plant growth so add lots for 2-3 then stop for 3-4 days then start adding it again (HC and micranthemoides are good iron indicators). Substrate plays a big part in lots of plants, so you may help some of your plants by some enrichment.
Clean the surface of your substrate as much as you can fluffing the surface and sucking with a small hose at the same time. Sick plants produce lots of mulm and this produces lots of organic load in the column. I am pretty sure Mg was creating the same problems you describe here as well (yellowing) I now dose it really sparingly just once every 2 weeks 2.5 ppm just to be on the safe side most of the yellowing has gone but not 100%. I have no big problem anymore with hygrophilas or any other plant. Keep your temperature around 23 C this way you slow down decomposition and get a chance to collect the crap. Slow down the tank give the bacterial population a chance to proliferate, and the plants to grow slower and with thicker greener mass.
Stunting can be from fert toxicity aswell when something is beyond a level.
I hope I could help a bit, I am struggling myself to understand the processes.
 freemann


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

MrSanders said:


> As stated in my post i am ALREADY using a drop checker.... it appears that CO2 is fine by that method, the degassed sample method, AND my fish.... they wont tolerate any more.
> 
> Well what do I have to loose? nothing good point. What do I have to gain? nothing another good point. I HAVE been doing EI for the past 2 years... and struggled the entire time with poor plant growth. I tried various amounts of ferts.... adding more didnt make things better. So i chased the CO2 thing.... like I already talked about..... more CO2 didnt seem to help either....
> 
> ...


I apologize! I misread or missed reading part of your post. Unfortunately, that runs me out of ideas. Trying Edward's approach would seem to be one thing to try. Whatever else you do, please keep us up to date on what works and doesn't work.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks guys... It seems that dumping tons of ferts, cranking the CO2 and having beaming lights works for some people. Again as Freeman described, in my tank it just wasnt growing nice plants.

I would love to hear others views and ideas on this. At this point I am basically going to go all out with PPS and follow Edwards guidance and see where it gets me. It seems that the things Freeman suggested and said improved his tank, are basically some of the things that will be acomplished trying PPS, lower nutrient levels, lower the CO2 a bit, cut back on the photo period..... Though lower temp. is one thing I can not do. I have discus and I really dont want to keep them at lower temps, they really do perfer warm water. 

I would be more than happy if I can achive a balance and basically slow the tank down and get lush beautiful growth. lol not to give anyone the impression that the growth is fast to begin with.... things CREEP along.... plants only need trimming ever 3-4 weeks! ah... what do I have to loose eh? 

again I would appriciate to hear others veiws? anyone else think I am going in the wrong direction like Avalon suggested? and that I was being to LEAN with my N at 30 ppm a week? it makes me wonder.... though I dont imange how I would ever need that much....


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Air pump and air stone is needed to exchange gases between water and atmosphere. You mention discus fish, how many you have?


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

> Air pump and air stone is needed to exchange gases between water and atmosphere. You mention discus fish, how many you have?


 Could that be replaced with allowing the spray bar of my filter lightly ripple the surface of the water? Thats how I have always had it in the past to help with exchange to keep a decent O2 level.

As far as my discus at the moment I have 2 sub adults, with another 1 or 2 that i plan on adding at some point. (wanted to try it with 2 to start to make sure my tank was to thier likeing) any way I have a dozen pencil's and about 10 or so corys also.... moderate load I suppose.

Also as far as the CO2... i have been advised for so long, so many times to crank it up. Is 1 bps really going to be enough? I guess what im asking is what exactly am I shooting for as far as CO2 goes? I have the means to accuratle measure PH.... and drop checker also.... so I suppose I can get pretty close to a ball park figure. Are we still shooting for around 30ppm? or do I not need that much when running PPS?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Yes, you are ok with the spray bar if you don't over do it.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

_


MrSanders said:



This is pressurized CO2.... have been told over and over, espically by Barr that it isnt possible that it has anything to do with nutrients.... and that its a CO2 issue. Well I have been chasing that BS for the past two years... I have tried the mist method, Internal venturi reactors, and inline reactors (what Im using now) I have killed entire tanks of fish from pushing to far.... I have REGLOUSILY tested PH levels via a Hanna PH meter EVERYDAY for months watching plants, and fish....bumping up bubble rates trying to get that "optium" level. It hasnt made any world of difference as far as "deficiency issues gos...

Click to expand...

_Here you can see _Cabomba caroliniana, growing 7" (18 cm) from _10K 250 Watt HQI double end Halide bulb - Aqualine Buske brand. Just 1 inch below surface. The lamp is only 6 inches above water. Too much light for Coral Reef aquarium.











If you still don't say *Wow* , then read this: *NO CO2 *

Warning:
This information may cause Headache / Flushing / Dyspepsia / Nasal Congestion / Urinary Tract Infection / Abnormal Vision / Diarrhea / Dizziness / Rash / Vomiting / Rectal Hemorrhage and Gingivitis

Thank you
Edward


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

LoL... thats great  however it doesnt really help me much in knowing what exactly Im looking for as far as CO2 concentration goes.

I understand that no amount of CO2 is going to make my plants healthy... and that the issue isnt so much because i have "low CO2" or it isnt the right method of disloving it. And as can be clearly seen you can use a TON of light, no CO2 and get healthy plants without algae....

but really back to the question at hand.... how much CO2 is needed to have a balance when doing PPS?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

PPS doesn't mean lean. PPS means balanced. Plus you can maintain any levels you want. 
CO2 is acting as an accelerator to algae and plants. In order to eradicate algae it is advised to maintain CO2 levels low. Present, but low. Levels around 10 ppm are fine. When algae is no more then CO2 can be increased for growing rate reasons. Water changes bringing in harmful elements damaging plants and removing old processed water is welcomed by algae. 

Discus fish may contribute to so high amount of waste that water changes may be necessary to keep pollution down creating never ending circle of destruction. This is why I asked you about discus.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

*Simplified summary *

*Algae likes:* 
Water changes
Sick plants
CO2
Fish waste

*Algae dislikes:* 
Old water processed by plants
Healthy plants (allelochemicals)

*Plants like:*
Old water
High light intensity
Proper light period (6 to 10 hours depending on intensity)
Proper night period
Available nutrients (NO3, PO4, K, Ca, Mg, SO4, C, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B and Mo)
Consistency

*Plants dislike:*
Low light intensity
Long light periods (over 6 to 10 hours depending on intensity)
Absent night period
Absent nutrients (PO4, K, Ca, Mg, SO4, C, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B and Mo)
Overdosed nutrients
Environmental changes (pH, GH, KH, temperature, nutrient concentrations, water conductivity, water changes, light type - intensity - period)
High levels of unneeded elements (Na)
Surface scum
Pushed to grow faster (high CO2 levels, longer light period)
Inconsistency

*Fish like:*
Old water processed by plants
Degassed water (N2, NO2, O2, CO2, equilibrium with atmosphere)
Consistency

*Fish dislike:*
Water changes
Fish waste
Environmental changes (pH, GH, KH, temperature, water conductivity, water changes, light type - intensity - period)
Plant nutrients 
Surface scum
CO2

Thank you
Edward


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

You said it all Edward nicely placed


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Sounds good to me... I like the Idea of having things in balance and having more of a self sustaining system that works well togeather. Please dont feel that I am ignorant and dont grasp the concept. Its just that for such a long time All I see if advice that says MORE. The problem is I need more CO2, more N, more P..... yadda yadda yadda. I have Algae becuase there isnt enough CO2, or its not put in the system the right way. You read the forums... you get what I'm saying 

Anyway I have started this drastically different approach to maintaining my tank yesterday. Bubble rate on the CO2 is locked in at 1bps, was really only up and running half the photo period yesterday day due to maintenance. Though I checked the PH when the gas turned off and I believe it was around 6.6.

Ferts are nowing being added as you suggested In your earlier post, and photo period was cut to 10 hours. we'll see how this runs for a week or so, Then I imange some testing will need done and we will work from there.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Thank you Freemann


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## southpark (Oct 9, 2006)

it almost sounds like you're over fertilizing, also i'm not sure you're taking into account the amount of nitrates and etc. produced by your native fish/plant/mulm in a tank that size.. and some of the plant reactions you're describing remind me of things that happen to land-based plants when they're being burned by ferts, the melting, root problems, etc..

i'd back off everything and do a long term study (at least 4 weeks at a time) of each individual method you're applying to your tank..

spend a few weeks with a set(low 8-hours or less) light schedule and either minimal ferts or no ferts and no co2 and see how your tank responds.. if you're not growing green water and your plants and fish don't drastically die off, then you're probably at a good starting point..

and then the next 2-4 weeks (depending on patience) try adding light ferts and increasining to a medium (8-10 hours?) light schedule and see how your plants respond..

and after that, try adding co2 in moderate amounts (not the fish-gasping level)..

i think you'll be more successful overall.. because right now.. you sound like you're nuking your tank with everything but the kitchen sink in an attempt to grow plants..

i'm a big fan of the "less" arguement, i'd rather underfeed than overfeed.. and to be honest i have 4 tanks, none of them suffer from a serious algae problems (besides minor growth here and there, no explosions)

i keep light to less than 10 hours a day, only 1 tank gets co2, 2 get flourish, 1 gets nothing (mostly fish)

i use ferts sparingly on the co2 tank, and not at all on the 2 flourish tanks and nothing added to the fish tank

all 4 tanks grow plants, only the fish tank shows mild algae growth on rocks and driftwood, the fish tank has mild plant growth (i'd say maybe 10% of the other 3)

you'll be surprised how little you really need to add to get good healthy plants.. 

remember, your plants need time to recover and adapt when you make changes (ferts, co2,water change)

be patient!

only add ferts and up co2 if you're really trying to gain that extra edge.. but do it carefully!


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## southpark (Oct 9, 2006)

The Skeptical Aquarist

is a great article btw, and i'd like to highlight the part where it points out that micronutrients are toxic in high concentrations and that symptoms of toxicity may be confused with symptoms of deficiency (your yellowing leaves and holes seem to indicate a phosphate deficiency, but you've been adding what appears to be adequate ferts.. but possibly to toxic levels)


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

I appriciate the insight. I really dont know what the issues are, if it is indeed lack of a nutrient.... or total excess. But what i do know is you are right about basically "blasting" the tank as you have put it. That is what I have done with all my tanks, things dont grow well.... add more ferts. That seems to be the TB method and answer for everything. my low tech tank also have similar issues, how could a low tech tank be deficient in anything when ferts are being added weekly and fish/ shrimp are fed on a regular basis?! seems unlikely that Its an issue of not enough..... also seems unlikely that i have some weird tap water with something in it that wont allow me to grow nice plants.

Im on to PPS now.... trying it out to see if things dont improve but thanks for your advice.


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## artemism3 (May 21, 2005)

Mr. Sanders,

I have the same issues as you. I will follow your progress and I am considering trying the PPS system as well.

One thing I found, when I stopped dosing the tank for a period of a month or so, the GDA and all BBA disappeared or stopped growing. I have been told by Tom and others that CO2 was the issue...tell my gasping fish that! I really truly wonder how much ferts our tanks actually need. I don't know how the lack of ferts can induce algae, all issues regarding algae both in tanks and in larger aspects, flowages, lakes, rivers, etc, are caused by an overabundance of phosphates and nitrates from runoff from farmers fields.

Enough musings for now!


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

> I have been told by Tom and others that CO2 was the issue...tell my gasping fish that!


 Tell me about it....



> I don't know how the lack of ferts can induce algae, all issues regarding algae both in tanks and in larger aspects, flowages, lakes, rivers, etc, are caused by an overabundance of phosphates and nitrates from runoff from farmers fields.


 Im sorry but I cant agree with you on that. I can easily see how in our tanks a lack of ferts can cause algae. And that has to do with the fact that more often than not when one nutrient is missing and causing plant growth to stall or stop all togeather, there is usually a supply of other nutrients just sitting around no longer being used.

When plant growth stalls, the nutrients in our tanks stop being used all togeather and are floating around free for the taking. Thats when the algae starts to pop up  I can understand the theroy behind Tom's work... I can also see how it could work.... however for me it just has not.

Anyway you look at it, heavy or lean on the ferts. Your going to have issues if you dont have robust, healthy plant growth.


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

Wow... Mr. Sanders, if you were talking about a 26 gallon tank instead of a 75, I'd think you were talking about my tank. 

I've also been doing the same type of dosing, reading all over apc that my problems are due to either a lack of some nutrient or CO2. I even switched to pressurized CO2 from diy so that I could have more control over how much is put in the tank, and have it set to just below the point that my fish are gasping. I've tried playing with levels of N, P, K, Mg, micros, and none of those worked for me either. 

The only time that this tank has been algae free for me was when I was dosing only micros and had diy co2. Sure, for a while after I started adding the macros I had increased growth. But, almost immediately the green dust algae started to grow like crazy. I had hoped that it was just temporary, and for a very brief time (only a few days) about a week after I started with the macros, the GDA had gone. I thought things were on the up-and-up, but the GDA came back and I haven't been able to control it since. Then the plant growth just started to fizzle.. every once in a while a few shoots of my Rotala rotundifolia have normal growth, but they're usually severely stunted and twisted. The longer I go on, the worse things seem to get. Now even my HM (which always grew like a weed) is stunting.

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion others here seem to have come to -- that I may just be driving my plants too hard.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

For what it's worth, planted tanks don't adhere to the "set & forget" philosophy. Take my 10g Tonina tank for example--the tank grew some of the best Tonina this side of the Rio *****, but now the tank is literally "tanking." Light? Check. Nutrients? Check. CO2? Check. So what is the problem? Why is everything either dying or barely hanging on? The only finger left to point is at the substrate. The same Tonina is growing quite well in ADA, while the 10g Tonina is in Florabase, which is totally disentegrating into a compact mush.

My point here is not to talk about my problems with poor plants, but to identify a singular issue I've noticed in very high light tanks: the substrate. The best plants I've ever grown have been in "fresh" nutrient rich substrates. I've done water column dosing for years, and while it's very beneficial, there's an apparent correlation with it and plants. Plants aren't 100% water column, they are quite dependent upon the substrate. In my experience, soil and other soil based substrates are by far the best, but the question is how long they will last. ADA is holding on strong so far, but Florabase has been a dissappointment. Plain old soil out of the backyard has been really good, but I haven't tested it over the long term. I've found Flourite to be par.

Generally speaking, the more light you have, the more demands are placed on your plants. Without an extensive follow though, you are sure to have issues. I keep a 75g, and high light has been the most difficult thing for me to overcome. Lower light performed a very respectable job with minimal effort.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

How do algae start? When plants don't have available nutrients, are overdosed or the conditions are not right they start leaking NH3, the best algae food. 

What is plant's defense? 
Healthy plants produce and leak allelochemicals as natural protection against algae. Only properly fed plants have enough energy to do so. Here is an example how healthy Nymphaea lotus covered in algae due to sudden declining conditions starts waking up when conditions improve. Its leaves start leaking allelochemicals killing the carpet of algae creating shedding like effect. Underneath are glossy healthy leaves. The algae turn into dead dust when the water is saturated with allelochemicals. 

Download is now available thanks to Avalon.












What do you think? Are your plants happy?

Thank you
Edward


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Avalon said:


> Generally speaking, the more light you have, the more demands are placed on your plants. Without an extensive follow though, you are sure to have issues. I keep a 75g, and high light has been the most difficult thing for me to overcome. Lower light performed a very respectable job with minimal effort.


In nature, there is no more then just few hours of strong light under water. The Sun to water surface angle deflects light away. The biggest mistake people do is keeping the same lighting period with more powerful lights.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Avalon said:


> My point here is not to talk about my problems with poor plants, but to identify a singular issue I've noticed in very high light tanks: the substrate. The best plants I've ever grown have been in "fresh" nutrient rich substrates. I've done water column dosing for years, and while it's very beneficial, there's an apparent correlation with it and plants. Plants aren't 100% water column, they are quite dependent upon the substrate. In my experience, soil and other soil based substrates are by far the best, but the question is how long they will last. ADA is holding on strong so far, but Florabase has been a dissappointment. Plain old soil out of the backyard has been really good, but I haven't tested it over the long term. I've found Flourite to be par.
> 
> Generally speaking, the more light you have, the more demands are placed on your plants. Without an extensive follow though, you are sure to have issues. I keep a 75g, and high light has been the most difficult thing for me to overcome. Lower light performed a very respectable job with minimal effort.


I couldn't agree more this is my conclusion aswell, substrate is of paramount importance specially for specific plants. Forest soil from decideous trees here in Greece has worked wonders for me for 2 decades.
High light has been a pain in the ass for me aswell in this last tank. But I don't think it is the light on it's own, it is a combination of things, in my previous tank I had similar light conditions 4w/gal MH, 1 bps CO2 and had very few problems (some tip stunting) but no algae whatsoever for 4 years (it was a jungle all the time) it was dosed with little ferts on the column (1 ppm NO3 daily others following) but the main difference was that it had 2 cm soil under the substrate mixed with laterite. I think this made all the difference. Soil always does this. Maybe it is the bacteria population that grow in it that helps break down stuff, or the fact that plants can utilise their root sytem properly and coop with the intensive light related growth pattern. Soil substrates I know for a fact that can last for 3 years, at least the rich ones I have used in the past.



> I don't know how the lack of ferts can induce algae, all issues regarding algae both in tanks and in larger aspects, flowages, lakes, rivers, etc, are caused by an overabundance of phosphates and nitrates from runoff from farmers fields.


MrSanders
I think the enphasis in the above phrase should be placed on overabundance of the ferts I think it was a wrong use of words 'the lack of ferts'. artemism3 correct me if I am wrong.

On a different topic. So it seems we have a repeating pattern. High light, higly dosed plants, lots of CO2, GDA,stunting, yellowing and various other problems, look on various posts in the forum, it is all around. 
Isn't it time to reflect on this one, collecting experiences before and after measures been taken and draw some conclusions?
I think we are making a full circle and something really constructive will come out of this. Anyway good knowledge comes out of failures, yes it does.
I also think more emphasis should be placed on future postings, on the toxicity, interactivity of ferts and the consequences this produce.
Freemann


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## artemism3 (May 21, 2005)

Freeman you are correct. I was short on time and didn't reread until now!


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

> I don't know how the lack of ferts can induce algae, all issues regarding algae both in tanks and in larger aspects, flowages, lakes, rivers, etc, are caused by an overabundance of phosphates and nitrates from runoff from farmers fields.


I suppose I misunderstood that a bit, and it was not stated all to clearly... but i think every one gets both points there....

This is very much so turning into an intresting thread, Im not sure weither or not I should start another thread for my PPS feedback or just post it here to keep it all togeather?

Anyway as far as the tank and drastic change in approach. Its really hard to say, and to early to judge how the plants are reacting. I can say for one right off the bat my fish are looking more happy, they dont hide as much, they are more active all day and eat better also. that is a big plus 

As far as plants I cant really say there is any negative nor positive going on yet. They pretty much look the same as they did before. I have yet to see new growth on plants that were stunted..... and have yet to see any color coming back to washed out plants.

I know this one is going to take time though.... and really I wouldnt be supprised if things started to look worse before the start to look better. that is if they do indeed start to look better.... got my fingers crossed on this one! But its just to soon to make any judgment.... maybe in a week or two


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## artemism3 (May 21, 2005)

Another example of keeping things in moderation, some of the ADA tanks that Jeff Senske does, he runs things alittle on the lean side in regards to ferts. Of course the rich substrate plays a large role as well. I am by no means an expert and I am just trying to learn and adapt like the rest of us, but whenever I have tried the EI method, I have ended up with very high nitrate and phosphate levels. When I went away from that, my tank improved and my fish seemed more happy as well. I assume some of the over abundance was from excessive feeding too. I have been told, can't remember where at the moment, but the feeding and the waste produced by the fish can produce enough of the nitrates and phosphates that the plants need. ( I sure wish I could remember who told me that...)

I just know from "my" experience on "my" tank, that the less ferts I add, the better the plants look and the less algae I see. Obviously your mileage may vary and this is my personal observation in my tank.


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