# K1 filter makeing videos and some other information in the media



## foreverknight

here are the K1 videos i have found and the information that really intrested me

Kaldness K1






these are the videos i based my design off of


----------



## TanyaQ2000

jason, have you figured up how much you're going to sell a liter for and how much is a liter in relationship to say a tray on an eheim or fluval (one tray full or only 1/2, etc)

thanks for doing all this research...i plan to use the K1 and the perot foam as soon as funds are available


----------



## AquaCamp

Jason - Thanks for posting these links, much appreciated.


----------



## fishyjoe24

I want to try some ones i need some more cash.


----------



## Michael

Jason, could you provide water flow with a power head instead of an air pump and air stone? Would the K1 media work in a conventional canister or HOB filter, assuming you have water flow from below the media?

This is very interesting!

--Michael


----------



## digital_gods

The aeration is very important to the Kaldnes Moving Bed Reactor. It keeps the dissolved oxygen concentration high which is an important in the formation of the biofilm and keeping the particles suspending. http://www.stowa-selectedtechnologies.nl/Sheets/Sheets/Kaldnes.Moving.Bed..KMB..Natrix.Process.html Here some directions for the ponders but don't forget to add aeration.


----------



## AquaCamp

Robert - What size bottle did you use for your goldfish tank and what air pump are you using?

Thanks,

Ric


----------



## EKLiu

That stuff looks pretty impressive. Does anyone have any K1 media that they would like to sell? A 25 liter box is way too much for most fish tanks.


----------



## digital_gods

@AquaCamp: I'm using a 1L Fuji Water bottle with .5L of media. I just have a cheap disposable air stone on a little pump rated for 10g tanks. My media is only 2 weeks old and still seeding. That is enough media to handle the bioload of .6 lb of fish. I'm going to be adding a second water bottle to be cable to handle over 1 lb of fish. I like my big gold fish. Now with your sump, all you need to do is put it on one of the chambers with aeration.

@EKLiu: ForeverKnight sells it. Just PM him.


----------



## fishyjoe24

Jason, how much k1 would I need for a bare bottom 55g?


----------



## niko

So I don't get it. The media needs to be seeded to move?

The media in the filter we installed in the tank at Sue's school at our last meeting did not move. I looked at some of the videos and it looks like they have brand new media already moving.






So what's the deal?

--Nikolay


----------



## foreverknight

like i said niko it may be to full for the moment. what i would do is take it out and remove some media till it starts moveing then when that seeds add some of the other media back into the filter. just my sugestion. or tilting the bottle in the tank might work too


----------



## flashbang009

This is completely new to me, I haven't stayed up on the latest trends..

I have a few questions, and if there's another thread for discussion's about this I'd appreciate being pointed in that direction to avoid hijacking this thread. 

My main questions are:

-How come you couldn't put this media in a canister filter, and have an inline diy O2 reactor (same design as CO2 reactor) right before the water enters the filter? The only problem I see with this is noise, which leads me to my next question..
-Could this be used in a sump with the same idea?
-Can this be the "sole" filter for tanks? Or is this in conjunction with other standard filters? 

Very interesting, and again, if there's a thread for discussion on this I'll gladly move my ?'s to that thread.

Thanks.


----------



## foreverknight

this media has been used for over 15 years <about 20 now> in the water treatment industry. yes i can be used in a sump there are videos of it being used that way on youtube. it has to have airation for the bacteria to grow co2 will not work. the idea is to have a self cleaning filter hence moveing bed filter where only the best and most productive bacteria survive. I have been trying to think of ways other than a sump to move the filter out of the tank and into a diffrent area so not at much co2 is lost through the surface movement of the water but as of now haven't had the time to experiment. the only noise i hear is from the air pump and the air breaking the surface of the water. it can be used as a sole filter in a tank. my plan tho is to use it in conjunction with a sponge filter. i myself am in the process of seeding media right now and havent full tested how well it works in an aquarium but there are places in the UK that use it in their tanks and they do not get amonia spikes at all because of the nature of how the filter works. i will have more information on how well the filter actually works being as i have 1 person besides myself currently testing it and i will give more updates as they come. i have only had the media in my possesion for a couple weeks and it can take up to 6 weeks to completely seed the media.

any more questions just let me know and i'll answer them to the best of my ability.

also this meida lasts a long time the treatment plant in the video is still useing the origional media that was put in when it was constructed.

Jason


----------



## flashbang009

Well first off, nice name 

Secondly, I mentioned the CO2 reactor just to give reference to something that most people know about, not saying to use CO2, I realize the importance of O2! I feel like a modified canister filter design, much like many of the DIY canister filters, would work great for this application. The only thing I can't figure out is how you would let the air out before it hit the impeller (Similarly to those videos you linked, with the holes in the top of the bottle). Can you provide me with a link to the specifics on the media? What makes it so special?

This sounds really promising if it could be developed into an exterior filter. Ahh another project 

Edit: Found this for info about the media, and this is a video of it used with a sump essentially


----------



## niko

According to the link that FlashBang gave 1 lb of K1 can take care of 2.5 grams of food per day. 2.5 grams is about a tablespoon of dry food

I don't know how these numbers were established. If they are more or less correct then we have some idea of the efficiency.

Jason, how much is 1 lb. of K1 as volume? 1 full gallo size ziplock bag?

--Nikolay


----------



## flashbang009

This is quite confusing with both of us being named Jason. Anyways. I was thinking some more about an alternative design, and thought of the hob filters. Couldn't a large one be used, and the K1 placed in the chamber beside the impeller, and the airstone placed in there too? That would allow for the air to escape.

That sounds like a lot of k1 for just a tablespoon of food. An important thing to remember is that those calculations probably aren't accounting for uptake by plants. Having this in a planted tank would probably be the perfect match.


----------



## niko

Yes I too feel that we need our own experimentation.

A large HOB with K1 is a good idea! I've been hoping forever now for someone to start making large volume HOB housings. That would probably be the best use of and HOB.

I don't know if all of you remember this guy that came on APC about a year or so ago pushing his algae filter. I thought he had an excellent point, but his idea got trampled down because we, the planted tank folk, thought that if we make algae grow well and eat all the food our plants will not do well. Anyway I have had a mini algae filter forming on the weir of an AquaClear filter. I clean the algae about once a month. They are about 3 inches away from the lights. The plants grow very well - I trim about 0.5 lb. of leaves every week. The CO2 outgassing is not a problem, nor is this accidental "algae filter".

My point is simple actually - from my experience there is no need to worry about the HOB filter outgassing CO2. Pumping Oxygen to the K1 or not - the HOB idea is good I think.

--Nikolay


----------



## digital_gods

I've been using the K1 media now for three weeks. It's not fully seeded to have maximum biological filtration affect on my tank but I wanted to share some of my insights of trial and error. 
*1.* K1 in a cold water tank takes longer to seed. 
*2.* K1 in a tank with (gold fish/live bearers) salt will take longer to seed.
*3.* The best air stone to use with the most output is Lee's Discard-A-Stones Aquarium Airstones. (sold at Petco)
*4.* It your K1 media continues to bunching up at the top after the first week, you might need to remove some of the media. You can add it back at a later date.

I'll keep posting up my tips as I stumble across new issues. This is uncharted territory for our small scale use.

Robert


----------



## foreverknight

digital is one of my testers of the product and as far as my experience i'm on my way to that as we speak. i am going to be useing it exclusely in my fish room and my tanks have not even cycled their first time yet. so i am working as fast as a guy with 3 demanding <adhd etc.> kids can. i'm sorry if i have not been able to get back as quickly as everyone would like.

a 50liter bag will handle 255grams of food a day and <shipping weight 19lbs>

it gets confuseing with all the metric and english measurements.

i'm doing the best i can and i will keep working on it to make sure all the questions i have answers for are answered

Jason


----------



## digital_gods

@Foreverknight: That giant TetraTec filter I gave you, could it be converted into a HOB K1 filter for your 180gal tank?


----------



## digital_gods

As I have mentioned that I've been running the K1 in my goldfish tank. I've been having the continuous issue of too much protein in my water column. I got four large goldfish in a 30 gallon tank with a canister filter rated for 60 gallons. The only reason I believe that it hasn't turning into bad nitrites is because the tank is non heated. I've been running half liter of K1 media for that last month. I'm happy to report that the haziness is disappearing and clearing up. I haven't done a water change in two weeks or made any other changes except dividing the half liter of media between two x one liter bottles to increase flow.


----------



## niko

This sounds interesting!

But I think to double check the efficiency of the 2 (now) bottles of K1 you could do a reversal; Once you are happy with the K1 (definitely seeded + you have figured out the best flow rate through it) you can remove both bottles. See what happens in the next few days.

I'm normally against using test kits because they are very inaccurate. But if you are going to actually do what I suggest I think you can use a cheap test kit to catch the trend. Not necessarily absolute numbers but just the trend - increasing NO2 or NO3 or leveling or decreasing. I'd also check for NH4 after removing the K1 - it may actually spike for a short time. And of course the more tests you run back to back the better - to try to avoid accidental results.

I think that K1 will definitely work but we need to figure out, at least in general terms, what are the optimal:

1. Air Flow for certain amount of K1 (I guess it would be hard to overkill the K1 with air bubbles, but do we know for sure it's impossible?)
2. Flow for certain size container (because that could impact the movement, collisions and self cleaning/retention of old/new bacteria)
3. Shape of the container (round maybe better for some reason - smoother movement or something)

And of course the big question - How much K1 one needs for certain size tank with certain fish load in it.

Overall I think if the K1 does work well finding above "optimal" factors maybe pretty irrelevant. I really, really hope to hear more and good news about K1!

--Nikolay


----------



## foreverknight

Large quantities of oxygen are needed by the Nitrosomonas & Nitrobacter bacteria ... 4.3mg of oxygen is required to convert 1 mg of ammonia to nitrate.


----------



## TAB

niko said:


> I think that K1 will definitely work but we need to figure out, at least in general terms, what are the optimal:
> 
> 1. Air Flow for certain amount of K1 (I guess it would be hard to overkill the K1 with air bubbles, but do we know for sure it's impossible?)
> 2. Flow for certain size container (because that could impact the movement, collisions and self cleaning/retention of old/new bacteria)
> 3. Shape of the container (round maybe better for some reason - smoother movement or something)
> 
> And of course the big question - How much K1 one needs for certain size tank with certain fish load in it.
> 
> Overall I think if the K1 does work well finding above "optimal" factors maybe pretty irrelevant. I really, really hope to hear more and good news about K1!
> 
> --Nikolay


I would bet the manufactor has that info. Rather they are willing to give it up or not in the question.

The worst that could happen is they say no.


----------



## niko

I don't think it is the best idea to get into too many details about what is needed and what not. Theory and experimental setups are one thing, aquariums have proven to be different. Yes, if someone could call the manufacturer or dig up some literature that would be great. But not with the purpose to be emulated blindly.

My point is - it would be best if we figured out more or less what is the general logic about using K1. Things like "A round container is better" or "The highest the air flow the better".

All of this empirical knowledge could be gained through experimentations in actual aquariums. That's why I follow this tread and try to keep it up.

--Nikolay


----------



## digital_gods

I'm furthering the experimenting on my end. I'm working at increasing the internal flow/rotation by relocating the air stone in different locations of the bottle.


----------



## flashbang009

Wow...

This is some serious filtration. About halfway through they adjust to show the whole sump. Wow. It looks like the media may just be moved by the turbulence from the filter movement.


----------



## Ekrindul

flashbang009 said:


> Wow...
> 
> This is some serious filtration. About halfway through they adjust to show the whole sump. Wow. It looks like the media may just be moved by the turbulence from the filter movement.


A tad loud. I believe in overfiltration and all, but four fish and a piece of driftwood in a bare bottom with that setup?


----------



## niko

One thing about K1... I've been wondering if it works better than a filter stuffed with Lava Rock.

When we find how much you need for certain size tank and how well it works it may turn out that Lava Rock with the same efficiency can fit in a smaller canister. Which is more practical then?

On a different note - one can spend hours looking at YouTube videos of different aquarium filter setups. Knowing what I know now I'm pretty shocked how little people know about filtration. It appears that a certain Japanese guy that we all know uses only Lava Rock to achieve the same results, or even better, as most people with huge sumps, multi-level filtration, funky designs etc. Seems to me that knowledge is indeed power.

That last video was pretty funny to me. This guy's monster fish explained a little about why he had such crazy filtration. From what I have heard people that keep big agressive fish are of certain personality. We can call them "elitists" or "overachievers". Some of these guys easily shell out thousands of dollars for certain fish. So if that is the personality indeed then the video of the sump that contained every single filtration method known to mankind may make a little more sense. Or it could be that such huge fish really need to eat a lot until they get really big and the filtration has to be that crazy. Either way - I have the feeling that with more knowledge that sump could be re-designed a little more toward simplicity.

--Nikolay


----------



## flashbang009

I seem to think that anything supplemented with oxygen will be better than the non oxygen alternative. Add to that the fact that you've got movement, and no dead spots, and i find it hard to believe the k1 isn't better.

Compare lava rock with supplemented oxygen via an oxygen reactor before the canister, then you've got a fair comparison. However, lack of movement in the lava rock makes me think dead spots are unavoidable without movement. 

I think that simply having k1 in a canister with no trays to separate space and an oxygen reactor before the filter to diffuse oxygen into the water would be the best option. You get turbulence in the filter allowing for movement, you get the added benefit of oxygen, and it's outside the tank with no added equipment. 

In the videos linked earlier for the k1 "bottles" the airstone provided both movement and oxygen. Why not use the canister 'pull' for the movement, and diffuse oxygen for well... the oxygen?


----------



## niko

Well, if we are talking about an out of sight + smallest possible size filter inevitably we come down to using a canister filter. A sump implies the use of an overflow box and a more complicated setup. Far from the simplicity of a canister.

If we bubble air or Oxygen through the K1 media inside a canister we will have to find a way to vent the extra gas. That means either channeling it through the outflow or having a third hose specifically for air moving out of the canister.

In the first case you can be venting the extra air or Oxygen through the outtake hose. But that means air bubbles coming out of the filter outflow, decreased flow, possible filter stalling/air lock, noise from the bubbles hitting the impeller. There could also be burping noises or swishing sounds in the tank as well as a guaranteed visual distraction in the tank from the air bubbles flowing out. 

In the case of adding a third hose you have to hook it up to the tank so any water entering this venting hose does not go anywhere out of the system. The separation of air and water will be a problem. You do not want air bubbles constantly hitting the pump impeller (noise, hotter operation, decreased flow).

Both of these virtual considerations pertain to the use of a canister. A sump can solve all these problems of course.

Fluidized K1 without bubbling air could have the same efficiency as Lava Rock. But no clogging potential and no dead spot issue. Then it really could be a better choice than the Lava Rock. Even if you have to use a larger canister size I think it would be worth it. Remember that the Japanese bubble air in the tank at night and one of the reasons is to perk up the bacteria in the filter (extra Oxygen + higher pH). That could be done with K1 too.

--Nikolay


----------



## digital_gods

What about converting a protein skimmer into a k1 reactor? It fits the criteria. Water movement coming in and out of the chamber. The water travels in a cyclonic motion with continuous aeration injected into the water.


----------



## TAB

niko said:


> Well, if we are talking about an out of sight + smallest possible size filter inevitably we come down to using a canister filter. A sump implies the use of an overflow box and a more complicated setup. Far from the simplicity of a canister.
> 
> If we bubble air or Oxygen through the K1 media inside a canister we will have to find a way to vent the extra gas. That means either channeling it through the outflow or having a third hose specifically for air moving out of the canister.
> 
> In the first case you can be venting the extra air or Oxygen through the outtake hose. But that means air bubbles coming out of the filter outflow, decreased flow, possible filter stalling/air lock, noise from the bubbles hitting the impeller. There could also be burping noises or swishing sounds in the tank as well as a guaranteed visual distraction in the tank from the air bubbles flowing out.
> 
> In the case of adding a third hose you have to hook it up to the tank so any water entering this venting hose does not go anywhere out of the system. The separation of air and water will be a problem. You do not want air bubbles constantly hitting the pump impeller (noise, hotter operation, decreased flow).
> 
> Both of these virtual considerations pertain to the use of a canister. A sump can solve all these problems of course.
> 
> Fluidized K1 without bubbling air could have the same efficiency as Lava Rock. But no clogging potential and no dead spot issue. Then it really could be a better choice than the Lava Rock. Even if you have to use a larger canister size I think it would be worth it. Remember that the Japanese bubble air in the tank at night and one of the reasons is to perk up the bacteria in the filter (extra Oxygen + higher pH). That could be done with K1 too.
> 
> --Nikolay


You are going to have a very hard time to vent air from a canister. The best option for that would be have something it the discharge side to work as a degasing tower. Or maype a small box that would allow the air to flow out, then a gravity feed back to the tank.


----------



## flashbang009

I think you missed my point Niko. O2 from a small, underpowered air pump can be diffused in the exact same way that we diffuse co2 in reactors. Apply that concept to the inflow of the reactor, and you won't have big air bubbles going through the impeller and into your tank. You couldn't do this with the previously mentioned bottle filters because you had to move the k1 somehow. This was done by using the o2 from the airpump to help the bacteria, while at the same time utilizing it's rising action to move the k1. 

Lava rock will never float. Therefore it will just sit there inside a canister. K1 however, should float and tumble inside the canister simply because of the flow through it. Attach your oxygen reactor inline on the inflow of the canister, and you've supplied your oxygen. Once the oxygen is diffused into the water, you won't need a vent hose or anything like that.

Bottom line: 'Bottle' filters need the airstone to provide oxygen and movement. Use an oxygen reactor to provide the oxygen while minimizing noise through the impeller, and use the existing flow and movement inside the canister to move the k1 around.


----------



## niko

This is of interest to this discussion. Don't know the date of the mock interview.

Taken from here:
http://aquajournal.net/na/stories_behind/index.html

Go to "[Stories Behind]" and then "Vol. 005 - Super Jet Filter"

"*Aqua Journal:* By the way, an external filter is considered to be the best filter for an aquatic plant layout. Why is that?

*Amano:* That's a generally accepted belief, but I am not so sure about it lately.

*Aqua Journal:* Really? You aren't sure about it?

*Amano:* When the oxygen content of water is low, the microorganisms inside a closed system become quite unstable. When the CO2 level is high inside a filter, the number of microorganisms decreases. On the other hand, when the oxygen level is high, the number increases. Algae seem to come and go along with this fluctuation. I am afraid that this is a short coming of an external filter. It has an advantage of retaining CO2 in water, though."

--Nikolay


----------



## niko

Flashbang,

I understood your idea, but to me for this K1 to be as horribly effective as it's supposed to be you need to blast it with a lot of Oxygen. It seems to me that what makes K1 so efficient is the short lived transitional surface that is basically wet/dry. Bubble contacting K1 and quickly flying away.

Just increasing the O2 inside the canister will certainly help a lot. No doubt. But blasting the little white plastic pieces with air bubbles seems to be the real deal and the original design idea.

I've ran CO2 into canister filters and there were no bubbles coming out of the outflow. But that was a rate of no more than 1-2 bubbles per second.

--Nikolay


----------



## niko

Another quote from the same source:
http://aquajournal.net/na/notes/005/index.html

Under "[Note's]" and then "NOTES vol.005 Nature Aquarium Filtration":

"The capability of a biological filter reaches its peak when the filter is about to start clogging. As the filter starts to clog, the water flow decreases, the oxygen level inside filter media decreases as well, and the filtering capability drops rapidly. However, if a filter pump has a high capacity (pump head), it can maintain a high water flow through the media and therefore a high filtering capacity for a long time. The pump for Super Jet Filter was developed with this in mind. However, it also requires maintenance as the filter becomes clogged to some extent. When this happens, media should be taken out and rinsed lightly to wash off dirt using water from the aquarium and taking care not to scrub off too many microbes."

A fluidized bed filter with a media like K1 would solve these problems. And not require a fancy pump either.

How avangarde...

--Nikolay


----------



## JustLikeAPill

flashbang009 said:


> Lava rock will never float. Therefore it will just sit there inside a canister. K1 however, should float and tumble inside the canister simply because of the flow through it. Attach your oxygen reactor inline on the inflow of the canister, and you've supplied your oxygen. Once the oxygen is diffused into the water, you won't need a vent hose or anything like that.


Perlite should float indefinitely, and it's the same consistency and size but lighter than bio rio that Amano sells. But cleaning would be a problem because it is so light. I can see it escaping down the drain.

Much cheaper than bio rio or kaldness. I can see the perlite eroding it's self if it was constantly moving though, and constantly grinding against each other.


----------



## digital_gods

I found if the media not rotating in the bottles like it should, increasing the air pressure to the stone will resolve the issue.


----------



## digital_gods

I keep having the ongoing battle with suspended protein in my water column from my lovely goldfish. I don't run a heater in my tank but I do keep a thermometer. This last few days of being warm, my tank water temperature has raised to 75-80 degrees. I've noticed that the clarity is allot better. IMO the operating temperature range would be 75+ for the active bacteria to be functional.


----------



## Ekrindul

Robert,

By suspended protein, do you mean surface scum?


----------



## digital_gods

Cloudiness in the water column. With the tank running above 75 degrees the water has been staying alot cleaner now. I've been running the k1 at rolling boil speed in a 2 liter bottle.


----------



## Ekrindul

digital_gods said:


> Cloudiness in the water column. With the tank running above 75 degrees the water has been staying alot cleaner now. I've been running the k1 at rolling boil speed in a 2 liter bottle.


Optimal temperatures are said to be between 77 and 86 degrees for nitrifying bacteria. I don't know how your goldfish would like that, though. 77 or 78 is a good temperature for most tropical fish, however. You might want some surface ripple to increase oxygen levels as the water gets warmer.


----------



## digital_gods

I did just that. I put up a spray bar and added extra aeration to the tank. Someone spawned last week. When I pulled out extra moss from the tank and moved it my hospital tank, I found fry last Thursday.


----------

