# My Plan for a 10g tank, advice needed



## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Hello Everyone,

I've been doing a lot of research on aquariums lately after my son came home from a county fair with a goldfish (didn't end well) although it has gotten me interested in aquariums. Even more recently I've seen heavily planted tanks and I think that is the route I'd like to take.

As the title of this post says I'm going to start a 10g tank. I'd like something fairly low maintenance and probably low-light as I don't want to go with compressed CO2. Basically if I can add liquids or solids to the tank on a weekly basis (to keep it healthy) I'm fine with it. Tanks, regulators, yada yada I don't want to mess with (I'll invest in a reef tank in the future before I do all that). So something fairly simple for now.

After doing some research I was thinking of using the following plants and livestock. Please let me know if there are better selections of plants or livestock.

*Plants*
Java Fern
Dwarf hair grass
Water sprite
Anubias nana
Anacharis

(Is there any fairly easy to grow plant that isn't green?)

*Livestock*
1x Male Betta
4x Neon or Cardinal Tetras (what's the minimum? Or is that going to be too much bioload?)
5x Ghost Shrimp (I know the Betta might eat them but going to chance it)
2x Oto Cats

Figuring Otos for Algae and shrimp for left over fish food.

I would introduce the Tetras or Oto's first depending on algae growth followed by shrimp with the Betta being the last addition. This would all be after the tank had finished cycling (planting would take place during the cycling process using a fishless cycle with liquid ammonia)

Was planning on using CaribSea Eco-complete as the substrate unless there is a better and easily "findable" substrate (as in LFS or PetCo/Petsmart)

I plan to change out the T5 bulb on the tank for a 5500-6400k T5 (they seem to be 20-24 watts, so 2.0-2.4 watts/g which is probably higher than I'd want but I haven't found anything with lower wattage yet)

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## NeonFlux (May 15, 2008)

The cycle plan along with plants sounds like a good idea. As for eco-complete, unfortunately, Petco/Petsmart doesn't really carry them; I've searched at every Pet co/smart myself to no avail, except for a fancy specialty local fish store that finally had them; you should try looking around your area. Did you ask Pet co/smart if they carry eco? Maybe you could possibly request some if they are nice enough maybe they can sell you some; no guaranteed though. Have a good one with the new setup.

The livestock and plants look rad for start.


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

20-24 watts of T5HO is a boatload of light over a ten gallon tank. You will need to find a way to raise it above your tank be at least 18 inches, maybe more. 

Most plants listed as needing high light are often CO2 dependent for their lush growth. Dwarf hair grass does better in CO2 enriched tanks, IME. I expect it to spread very slowly, if it makes it. Use floating plants like Crystalwort, to soak up excess nutrients and block some of the light. 

Betta lovers don't like what I am about to say, IME. But, Oto like good water flow (2 inches a sec.) and your Betta will too. A powerhead on a timer would help prevent dead spots and the timer would allow you turn off the powerhead at different times of the day.

Plants will work as a biological filter. But adding ammonia, considering the levels of light you have, is asking for an algae outbreak. Fishless cycling is from back in the day, before we added plants. A fishless cycle with the amount of light you have, should cause an algae outbreak/green water. If you continue to add liquid ammonia, leave your lights off - after the cycle is finished add light/plants. Or, add plants, add a few fish and do what people call a silent cycle.

I am not familiar with the substrate you mentioned, but nutrient rich substrates take some time to settle before you can add your fish. Almost as long as a fishless cycle. Soils tend to leak ammonia into the water and need time before the NH4 levels drop out.

Looking ahead. Seriously consider reducing the amount of light you have. With T5 you shouldn't need more then low-midlevel light, around 0.6 - 0.8 wpg. Make fertilizer your friend and use responsibly.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

I haven't bought anything yet, and I just checked again and *whoops* I was reading the wrong tank, the 10g tank has incandescent (the 15g had the T5) so I can probably just use a 15 watt CFL. Are CFL's in 6400k easy to find? Ala Home Depot or Lowes? Found plenty via Google.

As for eco-complete and Petco I was just going by their website and figured they would have it in store as well, if need be I can order it online (http://www.petco.com/product/111998/Eco-Complete-Planted-Black-Aquarium-Substrate.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch)

Is there an alternative to dwarf hair grass that looks similar but can grow in a low-light, low CO2 environment? I looked at some of the other covers but really like the look of a bright green, short grass in the pictures I have seen.

If not I may need to look into getting Excel and replacing the Anacharis with something else.

With the plants listed what kind of quantities for each would I need for a heavily planted tank, was figuring on 3-4 each perhaps only 2 of the dwarf hair grass as I'd have to separate it and give it room to grow?

Going to get the tank, heater, thermometer, substrate, API test kit and bulbs this weekend.

After that I'll need to figure out all the ferts needed and purchase the plants online I'm guessing.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Trying to determine my plant list and quantities (10g tank). Going to see about getting a piece of drift wood and some rocks to tie some of these to. Would the quantities below be enough or will I need more?

2x Anubias Congensis 
3x Anubias Nana
3x Dwarf Hairgrass (2 inch pots)
4x Java Fern
3x Water Sprite (2 inch pots)

If I decide to not use Excel do I need any other ferts besides these?

Seachem Flourish Nitrogen
Seachem Flourish Phosphorus
Seachem Equilibrium


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## gwclark (May 10, 2010)

design1stcode2nd said:


> Was planning on using CaribSea Eco-complete as the substrate unless there is a better and easily "findable" substrate (as in LFS or PetCo/Petsmart).


All of the local PETCOs and Petsmarts in my area (Utah) carry Eco-Complete.

GW


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## riseabovethesun (Jul 15, 2010)

design1stcode2nd said:


> Trying to determine my plant list and quantities (10g tank). Going to see about getting a piece of drift wood and some rocks to tie some of these to. Would the quantities below be enough or will I need more?
> 
> 2x Anubias Congensis
> 3x Anubias Nana
> ...


I think that would be plenty for a 10g tank. I have one Anubias congensis and its growing rather large and taking up a corner of my 36g bow front tank. The amount of plants should be plenty and at least "back ups" incase one just isn't very healthy. The water sprite may need a bit more than "low" light but should be fine.

I don't have a lot of knowledge on ferts but I'd be careful on how much you dose if you are going to have invertebrates in your tank, especially shrimp they can be easily affected even before your fish from overdosing. Cherries are pretty hardy though and ghost seem to be. Amanos are pretty sensitive though if you ever get any of those.

I also use two 6700K 65 watt fluorescent bulbs (they're not always on at the same time), incandescent take more of their energy and produce heat rather than light, it isn't a huge difference but it can make a difference in the summer with the temperature of your tank and if you have the lights decently high above your tank like you need them you may not be producing as much light as you could be with a fluorescent for your plants.

Lastly I might suggest neons over cardinals only because of how sensitive cardinals are to water parameters. I haven't had many issues with my school of those or rummy nosed tetras, but you hear a lot about how sensitive they are and in the beginning I did lose an entire school of them. It's usually suggested to use RO water with them (which I do), but that's your choice. Also I'd recommend this website to fiddle around a bit with the fish stocking and filtration:

http://aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php

Hope that helps a little


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Change of plans, now have a 20g tall (24x16.5x12). May have to add a few more plants.

Thanks for the link, that is helpful in figuring out what fish to put in.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

I just can't seem to win. After looking at the hood that came with my tank it's an 18" T8 lamp. I can't find an 18" lamp that isn't 15 watts so now I'm looking at .75w/g.

That's not going to grow much in the way of plants I'm thinking even if I leave it on 12 hrs a day is it?


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

Two T8 bulbs should provide plenty of light to grow most plants. One, if you can add a nice reflector might be enough. I'll be testing some T8 bulbs in the future but I am more familiar with T5HO lights. Maybe try Cryptocoryne parva instead of dwarf hair grass as a ground cover.

I would not worry about fertilizer and shrimp. Tom Barr has been using EI methods in tanks with expensive shrimp for years without any known effect on populations. http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php?t=7546

With low light, a nutrient rich soil and without adding CO2 you should add less fertilizer, about 10X less then EI. Reduce the number of water changes and perform smaller water changes.

Follow the dosing recommendations that Seachem provides. I think the doses they recommend are on the low end for planted tanks. As a guideline the following target ranges insure you have plenty of nutrients, 5-10ppm of NO3 (Flourish Nitrogen), 2ppm of PO4 (Flourish Phosphorus), 10ppm of K+ (Equilibrium) and try adding Seachem iron. Having those levels of nutrients will insure your plants have what they need nutrient wise. Here is a calculator for dosing listing Seachem products. http://www.fishfriend.com/fertfriend.html



design1stcode2nd said:


> If I decide to not use Excel do I need any other ferts besides these?
> 
> Seachem Flourish Nitrogen
> Seachem Flourish Phosphorus
> Seachem Equilibrium


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks, just ordered my seachem ferts and a 6,500k bulb. Going to try putting some aluminum foil behind the T8 and see if that helps.

Thinking I'll go with Java Moss instead of hair grass since it's hard to kill and seems to do well in low light (free from a friend).

Thats a great link too, will be bookmarking that on my phone so I can have it handy while measuring.


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## riseabovethesun (Jul 15, 2010)

tug said:


> I would not worry about fertilizer and shrimp. Tom Barr has been using EI methods in tanks with expensive shrimp for years without any known effect on populations. http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php?t=7546


I wouldn't say it's so much as the price of the shrimp as it is the species and sensitivity to changing water parameters just like fish. It's highly suggested to use RO water for Cardinals, not everyone does but it is a suggestion. I also think it is important to note that it's when you dose too much that there becomes an issue, not regular monitored dosing with a proper tank setup. Some people do not circulate their water well, do not do water changes weekly and so the high content of ferts (especially with copper and iron) can destroy them -- is more what I was warning of.

It just makes me sad that some people jump into things without knowing what is going on (and this isn't directed at anyone just a general statement). Two of my local fish stores keep bamboo shrimp in a current-free tank, well that is the main way of eating for those guys, they're filter shrimp...mine spend near ALL day in the current.

Ferts are great and yes my experience is limited, but just with anything don't overdo it and keep in mind that it could harm things but also is very great for plants. Kind of like the people that use mass amounts of ferts and CO2 to rush the growth of the plants then they die because they reach that maximum point rather than nurtured and careful growth.

I hope the tank setup is going well!


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

Java moss could be a problem, but worth the try. Mosses tend to grow in areas with a strong water flow and high nutrient/CO2 levels will help keep it healthy. More then some mosses, Java moss seems to be a nutrient hog. If you find any, try Cryptocoryne parva. It should do well in lower lighting levels and you can always use more plants now that you have moved into the 20T..

My personal experience, I jump into a lot of things often without knowing much of anything. Maybe I am just lucky not to have too many casualties. It's how we learn or at least one way to test boundaries. Without looking at my notes, I can say you would be hard pressed to kill RCS using EI doses with weekly water changes. In a low light, non-CO2 tank with fresh soil, fewer plants and infrequent water changes, dosing less fertilizer only makes sense, but I am more likely to kill fish/shrimp from adding to much CO2 as anything else.

I agree the importance of current is often overlooked. I like good flow, about 2"/sec.


riseabovethesun; said:


> Two of my local fish stores keep bamboo shrimp in a current-free tank, well that is the main way of eating for those guys, they're filter shrimp...mine spend near ALL day in the current.


Fertilizer levels and CO2/nutrient demand are both dependent upon the light that drives plant growth. With lower levels of light/CO2 you couldn't rush plant growth just by adding more fertilizer then what sustains it. The light is what drives growth. Fertilizer and CO2, maintain healthy growth. 


riseabovethesun; said:


> Kind of like the people that use mass amounts of ferts and CO2 to rush the growth of the plants then they die because they reach that maximum point rather than nurtured and careful growth.


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

I haven't kept Cardinals. Off the top of my head I would say RO water is often recommended when people have very hard water. People that keep Cardinals in water that has a low KH might just as well skip adding RO water if their tap water doesn't require it. I understand your concern, but I often recommend RCS to anyone starting out in this hobby because they are extremely hardy. With the more sensitive species I would say Tom has proved that for the most part fertilizer is not as much of a risk as people think. If you wash your hair, will the sun rise tomorrow? It has nothing to do with you having washed your hair, but it will rise. Same with fertilizer. If you add fertilizer can your shrimp die? Does it have anything to do with dosing fertilizer? Some say no, some don't know.


riseabovethesun; said:


> It's highly suggested to use RO water for Cardinals, not everyone does but it is a suggestion.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

I set the tank up tonight and started on the fishless cycle. My Mopani driftwood is soaking in a bucket so it's just the eco-complete in there now.


















How do you test for hardness in your water? Can you do it yourself or is it something that needs to be sent out?
--API has a kit for all of $6-$8 so I'll pick one up.

I think I remember doing that at some point years ago and my water might be a bit hard. May have to go with Neon Tetras although I find the Cardinals prettier. Not going to invest in a RO/DI setup anytime soon. Maybe just a filter on the basement tap would help.

I'll order my plants this week or weekend.


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi design1stcode2nd,
If the fish you have are coming from your LFS they are most likely living in the same tap water you have. Fish will adapt to a wide range of water parameters and your water is fine. It never hurts to look online for your local water quality report. It should list the levels of Ca and Mg, as well as all the other good things you have in your tap water.

I notice in your picture the HOB filter is splashing away and the absence of any powerhead. You might want to look into purchasing a Koralia nano to add to the tank. And, did you ever get the soil you were looking for? Everything is happening so fast - it's hard to keep up. 

I'm not a real fan of fishless cycling. Plants are an effective biofilter and if you slowly add your fish the bacteria colonies will grow with the food supply naturally. A method called silent cycling that I used seamed to work. Of course, it might be a good test to see how much light you have if you add ammonia and get green water using your light.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

I had looked for a small powerhead but couldn’t really find anything most seemed too big for my little tank so I’ll check out the Koralia nano you mentioned.

I only filled the tank as far as I needed to, to get the filter working. I had hoped to only fill it 50% of the way so it would be easy to place plants, driftwood and such but it needed at least 75% to draw. It will smooth out a lot once its full.

If I had my plants now I’d look to do a silent cycle and I will place them as soon as I get them but that won’t be for a week or so I’m sure. In the mean time I’m getting the process started fishless.

The substrate is Caribsea Eco-Complete, I mixed the red and black together, total is 40lbs.

My ferts and 6,500k light haven’t shipped yet and I won’t have a light on in the tank until I have a few plants in, just had it on for the camera phone shots.

I’ll be fashioning an aluminum foil reflector tonight for the light bar. It just sits on top of the hood and shines through a clear plastic panel so seems very easy to do.


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

you could grow some cryptcorines to add color. crypt becketii and wendtii have red-ish underneath. some others are all green, some others have white "veins-like" markins. your set up looks very nice already! on the fish, i would wait a little before you add the ottos because i personally have had bad luck when adding to a newer set up, but no issues to a well established tank...keep the updates coming!


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

*20g high*

Here are the plants I ordered. Should be here on Wednesday.

3x Anubias Congensis
3x Anubias Nana
2x Red Cryptocoryne
2x Java Fern
4x Spiralis
2x Water Sprite
2x Micro Sword

I'll take a pic when I have them all planted and the water has cleared so prob. Thursday night.

Currently ammonia is holding at 4ppm after about 5 days, I expect I'll see it begin to decline in a few days.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Begining to think I bought too many plants, I guess I'll see soon. 

How soon should I start ferts once I've planted?


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## tug (Jul 23, 2009)

*A*lways a good sign when you say, too many plants. I never could, if I were to keep a grow out tank, even that would only be better than, right? I need to go back. I might miss something. Ammonia, maybe 4ppm; no fish yet; lots of plants, but maybe not as many as you think. 

You have 0.8, aarrr no. Between 0.7 and 1.2wpg. That should be fine at 0.7wpg. CO2 helps, when light goes into the mid range.

If you're dosing EI at 1/2. That could limit growth and become a problem later. Full EI x2 a week would give you two full doses but a simpler routine, if you forget a day and if you feel you want to adjust the dose, drop/add another day back into the week. Just depends on how you dice it.

Start with plants/a water change and add those babies, doses. Yes!
No fish - dose full EI while you're at it.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

A couple quick shots. Thinking I should have taken everything out to plant, tried to plant around the driftwood and things kept floating up.

I'm used to regular gardening so when you pack it down it stays.

I'm guessing these shoots need to be further in the soil? I have the various anubias and Java fern just held down on rocks/driftwood with string. Guessing it will just magically grow and attach itself some how.

I'll dose on Friday as my pre-season kicks off tomorrow and I think I'll want to fix a few of my mistakes. Not happy with the the reedy stuff in the back forget what it's called, spirilis or some such. May find another spot for the Java fern as well but it didn't look all that healthy, wound up tossing a crypt as it just broke apart and looked bad. At least they threw in a few extras of the others.

Cameraphone shots below.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Well looks like my tank has cycled in a little over two weeks. I did a PWC last night and plan on picking up an apistogramma cacatuoides double red pair along with 2 Zebra Nerite snails and one Ancistrus sp. 4 (similar to L144) pleco tonight.


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## design1stcode2nd (Jul 27, 2010)

Just to update. The tank is doing fairly well. Nitrates are a bit up at 80ppm and if I can’t get them down further with the weekly 25% PCW I’ll go to twice weekly until they settle (some of it may be due to the plants decaying before the sprouted new leaves/shoots). The water sprite doesn’t appear to be doing well and I lost one just trimming it as it completely came apart. Java Fern, Anubias nana, Anubias Cogensis and Spiralis seem to be doing alright. The microsword is surviving if not doing well.

I’m going to look into a new light fixture. I’ve found a coralife strip with two 14w bulbs which would be good for my tank. With the driftwood, three inches of substrate, rocks and plants I imagine there is only about 18 gallons in the tank so about 1.5w/g almost doubling what I have now.

I’d like to get a carpet plant but nothing is going to grow in the .75-.85 w/g so I need to upgrade. Everything else I’ve seen is much too high in the w/g department not to mention price.

New additions to the tank went in this past weekend; 8 Neon Tetras, 4 Red Snakeskin guppies (1M:3F) and 8 Amano shrimp. The shrimp made short work of the small amount of algae growing in the tank. Very industrious critters, my driftwood and plants seemed spotless in only a day or so. I’ve been providing algae wafers as well since the snails, shrimp and pleco all eat algae.

I haven’t been able to get my Apistos to eat anything except live black worms although they will eventually have guppy fry to snack on. As I expected the guppies and neons are eating all the dry foods I tried on the apistogramma (FD brine shrimp, blood worms and flake). The guppies even go after the algae wafer sometimes (oddly just the females) and nothing eats the cichlid pellets. Of course they being the same color as my substrate doesn’t help.


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