# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Blue Green Algea, its uncontrolable HELP



## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

I have the worst case of blue-green algea. I determined it was bluegreen by Ghazanfar Ghori's post Algea Information. It says to use some chemical to kill it off but i dont no how to get ahold of some and even if i do my conditions will just induce it to grow again. It covers my driftwood all the gravel and the plants, now even the sides of the tank. Every time i clean it the tank looks nice but in just maybe 5 days you can barely see the gravel. 

Specs:
10g
Penguin Mini Biowheel
DIY CO2 injected into filter intake
Ferts, were very little added but when algea started i havent added any.
Laterite under gravel bed.
40watts was changed to 20 watts and it hasnt stopped the algea. 
10 hrs lighting each day.

I do water changes every week because the tank look so unbearable.

What is going on here and what is the excessive nutrient that is making the algea grow crazy? Any replys to help will be GREATLY apprieciated.

- depthC


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

I have the worst case of blue-green algea. I determined it was bluegreen by Ghazanfar Ghori's post Algea Information. It says to use some chemical to kill it off but i dont no how to get ahold of some and even if i do my conditions will just induce it to grow again. It covers my driftwood all the gravel and the plants, now even the sides of the tank. Every time i clean it the tank looks nice but in just maybe 5 days you can barely see the gravel. 

Specs:
10g
Penguin Mini Biowheel
DIY CO2 injected into filter intake
Ferts, were very little added but when algea started i havent added any.
Laterite under gravel bed.
40watts was changed to 20 watts and it hasnt stopped the algea. 
10 hrs lighting each day.

I do water changes every week because the tank look so unbearable.

What is going on here and what is the excessive nutrient that is making the algea grow crazy? Any replys to help will be GREATLY apprieciated.

- depthC


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## Peter(09) (Jan 18, 2005)

As a minimum you need to understand what your C02 concentration is. If you are driving your tank hard in terms of fertilisers and lights without adequate C02 ......


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## imported_Fred (Feb 1, 2003)

depthC,
Do a search "blackout" = keyword..... it will be quicker than me trying to post all the links ;^) Most of the info is in this section.

Tom Barr's advice is not to be ignored, very sound. Follow the instructions to the letter and be sure to address the CAUSE not just treat the symptoms!

The blackout has worked for me....good luck
Fred


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Couple of things. BGA thrives when conditions are less than favorable for higher plant growth; it's very good at taking advantage of extreme environments-i.e., very high nitrates or very low nitrates-that cause higher plants to suffer. You need to know enough about your water chemistry so that you can determine what in your tank is encouraging the BGA at the expense of your plants; at a minimum, you should know what your nitrates are, and your ph and kh so you can determine your CO2 concentration. The fact that you've withheld fertilizers since the beginning of the outbreak is doing more for the BGA than it is to control it. A blackout of 4-5 days will eliminate what's in your tank, and you can kill it with erythromycin, an antibiotic readily obtained for aquariums; it's the ingredient in Maracyn, which you can get at almost every fish store. However, you need to address what in your tank is favoring algae growth over your plants or it will return in fairly short order. Test results for the parameters mentioned above would help. What kinds of plants are you growing in your tank, and how heavily is it planted? That would help, too.

One more thing: you mentioned that you "do water changes every week" to combat the BGA. How often do you NORMALLY do water changes? One of the best ways to keep your planted tank in shape is to do regular, frequent water changes, at least once a week. This allows you to "reset" your tank, prevents any one nutrient from building up out of proportion to the others, and (depending on what your tap water's like) can restore trace elements and phosphate as well.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

Thats for the help so far everyone. Fred someone has mentioned a blackout to me but if i did do that it would only be temporary and it would grow back so that isnt what im going for. Vicki i tested those and here are the results :

pH - 7.8 very stable has never shifted without me inducing peat moss into the filter outflow.

kH - 214.8 bppm or 12*dkH

N03 - 0 ppm, i just did a water change yesterday.

Now i have these what is the formula to calculate my C02 concentration? 

As for how heavily planted the tank is, its not at all. I have a water sprite not much but it takes up the back corner. A little patch of dwarf hairgrass, and a few stalks of Bacopa Monnieri. The tank is very lightly planted which is not what i want. I want a very dense looking tank but i cant achieve this with BGA so im trying to control this before i continue on planting the tank more. Also the bioload is 6 Glowlights.

Also as for my water changes, I usually do them once every 2 weeks but have been doing them more consistently since i want to get in that habit because i plan to keep Blue Rams and they are more sensitive to water quality. So investing on a python kit would probably help me out because this bucket routine isnt a very appleasing thing to do each week for me. And as for my C02 I change the mix every 2 weeks along with the water changes and vacuuming. But as i read in another forum by doomer i believe someone said it was because of inconsistent C02 rate so he started to change his DIY mix every week. So i think ill try doing that also.

Okay i think that covers everything asked please answer my questions so i can be a step further free from BGA. Thanks Everyone.

- depthC


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Your additional info makes it pretty clear what your problem is. You are (or were) supplying a great deal of light; based on your ph and kh readings, you have very little CO2, you're just about at equilibrium at somewhere around 4 ppm (one of the chemists can get a lot closer, I feel sure!). Your DIY CO2 doesn't seem to be doing you much good, so your plants have more light than they can possibly use in comparison to the amount of CO2, nitrogen and micronutrients they have available. In short, the nutrients in your tank are all out of whack for your plants, but not for the BGA, which is much better able to take advantage of situations like that. You need to find out what the problem is with your CO2; how are you delivering it into the tank? Check your bottle carefully for leaks, also. Once you can improve your CO2 addition and reduce your ph to the neighborhood of about 7.3, you will have a useful amount of CO2 in the tank. Adding more plants into this environment once you have created better growing conditions for them will really help. If it were me, I'd get my CO2 adjusted, and then I would nuke the BGA with erythromycin. Once I had removed all the dead BGA, I'd add more plant material, preferably fast growing stem plants. Flourish is readily available, and would probably be a good place for you to start with fertilizers. You may find you need to add additional nitrogen, also, and Flourish has a product for that called Flourish Nitrogen. Once your plants start growing well, you're halfway home, and the more plants you have, the better off you are. Keep in mind I'm just hitting the high spots; managing a high light small tank can be a challenge, and the more information you have the easier it will become. Check out Chuck Gadd's website and the Aquarium Fertilization forum for a lot more helpful information. Good luck, and don't get discouraged! A successful tank is just a matter of proper nutrient balance, and you'll get there.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

My DIY C02 is run straight into my filter intake. And Im almost positive it has no leaks but im willing to make another one just to be sure once i get some more tubing. Then as for my mixture i use 2 cups or sugar and 1 tsp or yeast and fill it a few inches short from the top and shake it up real well. As of now it is producing 3 bubbles every 5 seconds. So 5 seconds of silence then 3 bubbles splurt out and you can hear them being chopped up by the impellar. Is this the best way to dissolve them into the water? Also when i make my DIY C02 im not too precise on the exact ammount of water and sugar and so on so maybe if i was more precise this would help out the production? Also is my mixture the best to produce the most C02? Also any other suggestions to make my C02 produce more would be greatly appreciated.

My lighting i changed down to 2 wpg of 6500K but when i had the 4 wpg i couldnt find the K rating of the bulbs so stepping down to a lower wattage bulb with a good K rating was in my mind the best thing to do. But i would be willing to step it back up if necessary.

Well thanks again everyone especially Vicki. Things are finally starting to click about live plants and i hope after this dillema i can finnaly achieve my desired look.

- depthC


45g: 21 Harlequins, 7 Bloodfins, 6 Black Phantom, 5 Neons, 3 Spotted Corys, 1 Sunset Platy.

10g: 5 White Clouds, 1 Betta, and 1 CAE.

10g: 8 Zebra Danios.

10g: 6 Glowlights
{Plants - Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, Bacopa Monnieri.

Total of : 64 Fish


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## imported_Fred (Feb 1, 2003)

depthC,
Lose the biowheel on the Penguin as it may cause a loss of your CO2. If you don't notice a drop in pH you can always put it back. Also bring your nitrAtes up to 5~10ppm.

You may still need to do the blackout to get rid of the BGA once you get your CO2 and nitrAte levels up.

Good luck
Fred


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

Yeah i could drop the biowheel for a while but im not totally sure if that is nessasary. As for the N03 level it will rise remember that is the level after i did a water change. But i will be purchasing a few products off of the Seachem line so Nitrogen is probabaly one i will buy.

- depthC

- - - - - - - - - - - -
45g: 21 Harlequins, 7 Bloodfins, 6 Black Phantom, 5 Neons, 3 Spotted Corys, 1 Sunset Platy.

10g: 5 White Clouds, 1 Betta, and 1 CAE.

10g: 8 Zebra Danios.

10g: 6 Glowlights
{Plants - Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, Bacopa Monnieri.

Total of : 64 Fish


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

So does anyone have any ideas of increasing the ammount of C02 in my tank? I really want to get this figured out so i can actually grow plants and not algea. Thanks

- depthC

- - - - - - - - - - - -
45g: 21 Harlequins, 7 Bloodfins, 6 Black Phantom, 5 Neons, 3 Spotted Corys, 1 Sunset Platy.

10g: 5 White Clouds, 1 Betta, and 1 CAE.

10g: 8 Zebra Danios.

10g: 6 Glowlights
{Plants - Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, Bacopa Monnieri.

Total of : 64 Fish


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Once you get the nutrients balanced (i.e. CO2= 15-30ppm, NO3= 5-10ppm, Fe= 0.2-0.7ppm, PO4= 0.2ppm) you can eradicate BGA without blacking out the tank by dosing the tank with Erythromycin at the recommended dose on the label. As Vicki stated, you should inject CO2 until the pH reads ~7.2 that will give you a concentration of CO= ~22ppm. Removing the Biowheel part of the filter will help and make sure the water does not splash into the tank but instead just flows into it. Measuring Fe can be difficult so just add enough to keep the leaves green.

Sometimes you can tell that you have good growing conditions when the plants give off oxygen bubbles (aka. pearling).

Lobos


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

Alright to get this chemical to kill off BGA i just need to get Maracyn correct? Is this the same thing as Maracide, which if im right is harmful to plants? Ill take out the biowheel to see if it helps. Also i did actually have a leak so i re sealed it and the production rate still hasent changed. Im still confused on whats the best mixture, on another board i was told 1/4 tsp yeast 2 cups sugar and luke warm water was the best, any suggestions? Thanks

- depthC

- - - - - - - - - - - -
45g: 21 Harlequins, 7 Bloodfins, 6 Black Phantom, 5 Neons, 3 Spotted Corys, 1 Sunset Platy.

10g: 5 White Clouds, 1 Betta, and 1 CAE.

10g: 8 Zebra Danios.

10g: 6 Glowlights
{Plants - Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, Bacopa Monnieri.

Total of : 64 Fish


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Since you stated that your NO3= 0ppm, then I am guessing your PO4 level is high or K is low that is what is causing the imbalance. Try raising the NO3= 5-10ppm, as previously suggested by Vicki, using KNO3 or Fluorish Nitrogen (which is KNO3). In addition to that dose extra K using K2SO4, KCl or Fluorish Potassium.

BGA is actually a bacteria not an algae, thus an antibiotic such as Erythromycin is effective at killing it. Maracyn (not Maracide) or E.M. Tablets from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals are what you should look for, both contain Erythromycin. Don't try to eradicate the BGA until you get your nutrient levels balanced.

These are some good links to learn more about planted aquarium keeping. The Krib has info on mixing the yeast reaction. What is your bubbles/second injection rate?

General plant keeping info:

<The Krib [great reference source)>
www.thekrib.com
<Chuck Gadd's (excellent site)>
www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/index.htm
<San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plants Society [Reference section)> www.sfbaaps.com

Forums:

<Aquatic Plants Digest>
fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/index.php
<Wet Thumb Community>
aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums?a=cfrm&s=4006090712
<Planted Tank Forum>
www.plantedtank.net/
<Rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants newsgroup>
groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants

Magazines:

<The Aquatic Gardener [highly recommend subscribing)>
www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

Good luck,
Lobos


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Here are the links again, they did not paste correctly.

General plant keeping info:

The Krib (great reference source)
www.thekrib.com
Chuck Gadd's (excellent site)
www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/index.htm
San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plants Society (Reference section)
www.sfbaaps.com

Forums:

Aquatic Plants Digest
fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/index.php
Wet Thumb Community
aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums?a=cfrm&s=4006090712
Planted Tank Forum
www.plantedtank.net/
Rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants newsgroup
groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants

Magazines:

The Aquatic Gardener (highly recommend subscribing)
www.aquatic-gardeners.org/


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

One thing I want to mention here (and I have been fighting BGA for at least a year and a half in my 75g tank) is that it doesn't really matter what method you use to get rid of the bga. You can use a blackout on the tank or you can use antibiotics, the end result will be the same. However, if you have not addressed the problem that allowed the bga to become a problem in the first place, it will come back. It won't matter what method you used to get rid of it. BGA (cyanobacteria) is an extremely abundant lifeform. Every tank has cyanobacteria in it but it usually isn't a problem.

My experience has been that the bga will return in 3-5 weeks if the conditions are right for it to. I have used antibiotics and I have used blackouts. The results are the same. I will mention that from my experience, the blackout method works faster and removed the bga just as well, if not better, than antibiotics. You don't have to worry about killing fish and other organisms in your tank and it will cost you nothing. If you do end up using antibiotics, make sure you grind them up very finely and dissolve them completely first in a glass of water. I found out the hard way that fish will eat chunks of the medications, and some fish (like bristlenose plecos and cory cats) can be killed from injesting too much of the stuff.

I would also disagree slightly that you shouldn't try to get rid of the bga before the nutrient levels are corrected. They should be done at the same time in my opinion. Once you have an outbreak of bga with a good head of steam, simply addressing the nutrient levels isn't going to do anything for you. The bga will be, in the mean time, getting thicker and covering more of your plants. The first step is to get the bga under control. The next step is to make sure you have addressed the nutrient problems to keep the bga in check (something I obviously am completely lost at). I would also caution you to treat any test results carefully if they are taken when the bga is thick. My experience has been that my tank nitrates will plummet to 0 very quickly once the bga takes over, but they are somewhat high when the bga is gone. If I had only looked at the results when the bga was thriving I would have made the mistake of dosing nitrates to my tank when they aren't needed. BGA is also a good CO2 consumer, so keep that in mind when you are trying to determine your CO2 levels. I would suggest that once the bga is gone you should take regular readings for things like nitrate, phosphate, pH, KH, etc. to see what your parameters are like under "normal" conditions rather than looking at them after the bga has become a problem.

Good luck!

Dave


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Dave,

With nutrient balance alone you can halt the growth of BGA, but you would be hard-pressed to erradicate it this way. This is exactly how I stopped its growth and then got rid of it. One reason you should do it by this method is that when the BGA stops growing ( and the plants pearl or grow) you know the nutrients are balanced.

I am not a fan of 5 day black outs because the plants suffer over that period and they should be healthy so that they can soak up the nutrients. A good idea is to remove as much BGA from the tank and leaves as possible and dose nutrients. Once the plants look good then add antibiotics to kill off the remaining BGA.

Dave - is your water high in PO4 and are you adding enough K?

I also found that areas of poor circulation in the tank will grow BGA due to lower O2 levels in that region.

Lobos


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

My water is actually pretty low in PO4 (hard to get much of a reading with my test kit). I have been adding potassium in the form of KCl at two teaspoons per week (should give me about 20ppm). I have tried adding circulation but the bga just seems to laugh at that. I am looking at possibly high nitrates at this point as a cause, but honestly I am just about out of ideas by now. 

My parameters are as follows:
75g
KH=1
GH=12
pH=7.4
NO3 = 20ppm (or higher at times)
PO4 = .05 (or lower)
Lighting = 160W (triton bulbs)
Filtration = Fluval 404 + MaxiJet 600 (with sponge on both intakes)
Fertilization = Kent Freshwater Plant + KCl

Dave


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

One other thing .. I wasn't doubting your method at fighting bga, but when mine really gets going, I can literally sit in front of the tank and watch it grow. If I remove as much as I possibly can (which takes hours and hours), if I come back the next day there is more than before I started. This stuff can grow at alarming rates, and for me the only thing I can do is to either nuke the tank with antibiotics or cover it up. Trying to balance the nutrients does little good because the plants are so covered with the bga they can't possibly do much good at taking in nutrients.

Dave


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

Thanks for all the replys. Well after a few days i retested my water parameters and they came out the same even after i removed my biowheel. So the 6 glowlights arnt doing much good so i will have to purchase some Seacham Nitrogen and potassium as it was recomended.

- depthC

- - - - - - - - - - - -
45g: 21 Harlequins, 7 Bloodfins, 6 Black Phantom, 5 Neons, 3 Spotted Corys, 1 Sunset Platy.

10g: 5 White Clouds, 1 Betta, and 1 CAE.

10g: 8 Zebra Danios.

10g: 6 Glowlights
{Plants - Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, Bacopa Monnieri.

Total of : 64 Fish


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Dave,

I did not take your comment as offensive, there are many ways to achieve the same goal.

I feel your pain, the BGA in my tank would come back almost immediately. The culprit was low CO2 concentration, once I increased the CO2 concentration in the water the plants grew again and the BGA stopped growing. I raised the CO2 concentration to 30ppm. This could be the problem in your tank. Using Chuck Gadd’s calculator to determine CO2 concentration based on the pH and KH of your tank, your CO2= 1-2ppm. It should be 15-25ppm. Do you inject CO2?

Additionally, your NO3 are a little high and the PO4 low. I would guess the high NO3 coupled with the low CO2 is your cause. Increasing the CO2 (with Fe, trace elements and K at the recommended levels and possibly increasing PO4) will cause plant growth. This will result in nitrate consumption by the plants and they will then compete with BGA for nitrates.

Lobos


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## imported_depthc (May 3, 2003)

hhmm . . i feel a little left out. O well

- depthC

- - - - - - - - - - - -
45g: 21 Harlequins, 7 Bloodfins, 6 Black Phantom, 5 Neons, 3 Spotted Corys, 1 Sunset Platy.

10g: 5 White Clouds, 1 Betta, and 1 CAE.

10g: 8 Zebra Danios.

10g: 6 Glowlights
{Plants - Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, Bacopa Monnieri.

Total of : 64 Fish


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Sorry DC .. wasn't trying to threadjack you here. My opinion is that getting other's experiences is oftentimes the best way to figure out one's own problems.

Dave


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Depth - you have not been abandoned.



> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by depthC:
> Thanks for all the replys. Well after a few days i retested my water parameters and they came out the same even after i removed my biowheel. So the 6 glowlights arnt doing much good so i will have to purchase some Seacham Nitrogen and potassium as it was recomended.
> ...


Do not add nitrogen or any other fert until you confirm that your yeast mixture is producing CO2. Do you have a bubble counter? If not, pull the CO2 line out of the filter and stick it under the water to observe the CO2 bubbling rate. Then calc the bubbles/sec. to confirm that the reaction is working.

Here is a link to a great article on setting up a yeast system: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/co2-narten.html. There are many hints and tricks listed.

Lobos


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