# Calling on all Marsilea folk...



## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

...especially those who've received Marsilea from me.

Last November I received some Marsilea that was marked as _M. minuta_. It certainly had tiny leaves as I've seen on minuta. I put it in my tank and it grew, although some of the new leaves were just a hair larger than the originals. I attributed this to lower light, lower fert dosing and DIY CO2. As time has gone by, this plant has changed ALOT and I'm not sure WHAT I've got. Any body have ideas?

Here's a pic from back then with a few new leaves. The tiny leaves and medium leaves are all on the same runners.










Some time has gone by and I've upgraded to pressurized CO2, EI dosing dry ferts, and also have added ferts from 1/4" of topsoil under my substrate that has finally 'woken up' (actually provides ALL my micros). This same Marsilea now has very large leaves compared to what I know as being "minuta". I put some in my daughters El Natural tank and am seeing the tiny leaves come back. Here are some pics of what is growing in my tank, ALL OF THIS IS FROM THE ORIGINAL TINY LEAVED MARSILEA....taller stuff in bottom pic was in heavy shaded area:



















So, has anyone had similar experience with Marsilea? For those that I've sent Marsilea to, how is it growing (small or large leaves, long or short petioles) ? Could it perhaps be that my 1/4" soil underlayer is providing an ample nitrogen source as well as micros and my N is so high that the Marsilea is just going nuts? I know that if I reduce potassium phosphate in the slightest, I get GSA quickly and my plants show potassium defficiency. If I dose ANY amount of micro or iron I get algae blooms. I also know that high nitrates leads to larger, yet softer leaf tissue in terrestrial plants. (I do not test my water column, so don't bother asking what ppm I'm at unless you want to send me a test kit.  )

Thoughts, opinions, experience... ?

-Dave


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Bump....C'mon. I know I'm not the only person on this site with Marsilea of one form or another.


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## melauriga (Mar 20, 2009)

I have Marsilea from you that I put in two different tanks, one El Natural and one with fluorite substrate and DIY yeast CO2, and in both they have grown pretty much the same. Some leaves are slightly larger and taller than the others, but pretty much all low growing. I was surprised that a few leaves have sprouted in the four-leaf clover form in the El Natural tank. I had thought that would only happen if it was growing emersed. And these weren't the plants you sent that had been floating to encourage submerged growth.

I recently read an article in Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine on Marsilea. The author wrote that Marsilea growth can be variable depending on growing conditions. Apparently when grown outside in the sun it can grow long stems that float on the surface. It sounded like the author had Marsilea send leaves to the surface in an aquarium when it was overcrowded, but otherwise usually it would grow in the familiar short groundcover fashion. She also said she had it grow in the four-leaf clover form in low light areas shaded by other plants, but mine is front and center with nothing else to block the light.

I'm sorry I can't say much about ferts, the subject pretty much baffles me . I just wing it and have had pretty good luck with the tank that I add ferts to, but I have found that I can't dose iron without getting hair algae either. That's one of the reasons why I went with El Natural on my other tank.

Anyway, I love the plants (thanks again) and for someone like me who isn't overly concerned about aquascaping, I think its kind of interesting that you never know what you're going to get from them!


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey melauriga! 

That's interesting that it started with multiple lobes in your El Natural. My daughter had me put some in her El Natural and all the new leaves are single-lobed and tiny. But, it's also fairly new, so maybe the soil has not yet released much in the way of nutrients?

I know what you mean about dosing ferts. I'm in the same boat as you and getting ready to start my own first NPT, Walstad-style. 

-Dave


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## marrow (Mar 4, 2007)

Marsilea minuta should stay small.( It should not get any higher then the diameter of a dime) I have grown a few varieties of marsilea and my minuta grew the same size in ignored natural tanks as it did in high lght ,co2 ei tanks of course it grew much faster in the high tech tanks. Perhaps you had some other variety and it was stunted. Unfortunately people have adopted the habit of labeling all marsilea as minuta. The vast majority of what I have seen labeled as minuta has been something else. I believe people are acting with the best intentions generally but few actually bother to check a plant key to figure out what they have. This compounds the initial error of course. The other marsilea are very attractive though and they all make an easy low demand foreground


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks, Marrow for the information.

Does anyone have any pics of their Marsilea (and what species they know or think it to be) they'd like to share so I can kinda get a visual glimpse at the similarities/differences? This would be very helpful. :biggrin1:

-Dave


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## EMc/ (Feb 20, 2006)

I think maybe your plant is Glossostigma elatinoides. (EX: http://naturalaquariums.com/plants/glosso.html; http://www.darkwhite.info/images/plants/Glossostigma%20elatinoides.jpg

I think all of the Marsilea species (there's like 45, I think) have clover like leaves. Yeah, I just found this info on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsileaceae

Here's a pic of one of my Marsilea:  Marsilea quadrifolia


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I've had Marsilea minuta that was given to me from a very reuputable person, who had it growing 'supersmall' in a high-light tank. It certainly did grow much bigger leaves in lower light conditions. I have yet to try to 'reconvert' it to the smaller-growing version. Other people I have talked to have had similar growth from the 'super-small' Marsilea (presumably M. minuta).

I know that all the other species of Marsilea available in the hobby *cannot* grow 'super-smaill leaves' like minuta. On the other hand minuta can grow leaves with size similar to the other species.....as Cavan has told me in the past, the only way to know for sure is to grow emersed and look at the sporocarps to accurately identify a Marsilea species.

So to answer your question - if you've had the 'super-small' leaves on your original stock, it may be M. minuta, but no way to know for sure without sexual reproduction structures in emersed growth....

On another note, what I'm using in my tanks right now is definitely M. quadrifolia, as I grew out the submersed form from a pot from Florida Nurseries.....


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## EMc/ (Feb 20, 2006)

I also have M. mutica, but can't find my camera to take a pic of it. Here's a lovely photo of some, tho': http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/potd/2007/02/marsilea_mutica.php

(And, again, I really think yours looks like Glosso, Dave. I think the plant was mislabeled.)


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Dave's plant is definitely a _Marsilea_. Putting some outside would no doubt help.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Glosso: decussate leaf arrangement (2 leaves per node). Marsilea: distichous leaf arrangement (1 leaf on each node of the rhizom).


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## SOLOMON (Sep 24, 2006)

I have a few types, probably different to the ones you have avaliable though. I'll try and find my pictures, yours looks pretty similar..

I have M. hirsuta, M. drummondii and M. costulifera.


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

EMc, it is a Marselea, lol, it doesn't look like Glosso.


Dave, was this from the package GWAPA sent?

That doesn't look like minuta, it looks like the other one that floats around inside our club...

Minuta is TINY. And it has always stayed tiny no matter what I did to it, it dies on me before transitioning to a big size...

The other one we sent, whatever it is, gets lobes at least 4mm, and will get very very tall and reach for light when shaded. (I have some of this one outside in my container pond, we'll see if it will show an ID).

I think I lost my last bits of minuta in a rescape, I'll look arund for it and see if I can post comparitive "head" sizes - I've never personally seen Minuta get a head larger than about 2-3mm or so. 



and yes, there are a lot of misnamed ones being sold. I sometimes think people just label it that way to sell it - I've seen a lot of it get bought lately that was far too large to be minuta.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

ingg said:


> EMc, it is a Marselea, lol, it doesn't look like Glosso.
> 
> Dave, was this from the package GWAPA sent?
> 
> ...


Howdy Dave! Yes, this was from the package that GWAPA sent around last November. Perhaps it is the other one that the club has. If you could get some to producer reproductive structures I'd be most appreciative. I gave away my extra tank so I have nowhere to do an outdoor trial (that the dog wouldn't get to).

However, I did put some outdoors just prior to giving that tank away and some slightly hirsute petioles were produced. The hairs were very fine and I'm not sure if this is characteristic of all _Marsilea spp _or not. (Cavan, does this sound normal for the genus? )

I have to admit I'm guilty of selling this as "minuta", but I promise it was not on purpose (please don't hate me Donald [smilie=p: ). Of coarse, now I just call it "Marsilea sp".


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