# Current thoughts on "Noon Burst" and "Noon Siesta"?



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

It's been quite a while since I've seen either of these ideas coming up in regular discussion. I personally use a uniform 9 hour photoperiod on my 46g tank and a "noon-burst" method on my 180g show tank. Both seem to work fine and plant growth in both tanks is more rapid than it really needs to be, even for ferns and anubias.

I don't see many people advocating a mid-day period of darkness anymore. People give all sorts of reasons for trying the things they do. One of the constraints that's important to me is the ability to enjoy the tank during the times that I'm actually home. Currently neither tank is lit in the morning when I'm on my way to work and it's a bit of a bummer. Even on the weekends I need to wait until noon for the lights to come on. I can report that, except for a bit of glass GSA, algae is virtually non-existant in both tanks. That makes it pretty unlikely that I'll change either setup.

I'm curious about what you do, and why.


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## bombastus (Apr 1, 2007)

Same in my case. Lights on at noon until 10PM with burst in the middle of light phase. No problem with plants growth, some GSA on glass and stones. This light schedule allows me to enjoy my tanks in the evening when I come back from work.


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## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

I don't understand what you guys mean by burst... Probably late, but mine goes on at 2 for an hr, 1 hr break, then till 12. I'm still experimenting with lighting periods since I have horrible gsa. I was wondering if I should turn on the light in the morning since light leaks through the window, but I want the light on at night too, so never sure what to do.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm running the noon burst and it works great for me.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I run the noon burst for a few reasons. For one, that's all the plants really need, which in turn serves to reduce algae in my experience. The last reason is to save money on the 'ole electric bill.

I'm running my lights at full capacity for 5 hours and half capacity for the full 10 hour photoperiod. I mostly chose those numbers so I could swap the bulbs midway through their expected life and essentially use them for the same amount of time total.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm also doing a noon burst on my two main tanks. MY 72g heavily planted I run a 4 hr burst and on my 46g Iwagumi I run a 3 hr burst. What is the duration of your tanks mid-bursts and for what reason?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Mine run for 8 or 9 hours straight, no burst, or dark period. I never did understand the idea behind the 'dark period' some folks swore by. Why would you crank up the plants, then force them to shut down before making them crank up again??? 

All the tanks go off at 11PM, so I can enjoy them at home.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

I think the siesta period is for tanks with inconsistent or low CO2 so that they can replenish in the siesta time.

I personnally run 3 hours @ 0.9WPG, 4 hours @ 1.8WPG, 3 hours @ 0.9WPG with 2 HO T5s with individual reflectors.

Works great for me and the plants still grow faster than when I used 2.5WPG of Poer Compacts

Andy


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Well, I guess I'm the odd one. My lights come on at about 6:30 am so I can see how everything is doing before work, off at noon, back on at 3:30 pm, and off at 10 pm. All my tanks are low tech with no CO2 and I don't have any major algae problems. Just a little algae here and there on the glass and slow growing plants. My reasoning is simply so I can enjoy my tanks when I'm at home.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The rationale that I was given regarding a period of mid-day darkness was to simulate the mid-afternoon thunderstorms that are common in the tropics.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Do you use your front or back bulbs for a "Noon Burst" effect? Or, any other combo of doing a "Noon Burst" method would be appreciated as well.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

On my big tank I use a little less than 1 wpg of T-5 lighting for regular viewing. An additional 2.5 wpg of metal halides come on for 4.5 hours in the middle of the day. There are lots of ways of accomplishing the same thing though.


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

Hmmm, I got told, somewhere along the line, that the noon siesta was an algae killer... The reasoning went that algae takes longer to begin the photosynthesis cycle than plants, so plants could rebound from the siesta better...

No idea if it is true or not.

I've gone to uniform photo periods, and plan to daylight sim/noonburst my upcoming 180g. 12x39w t5's, will run a cycle of 4 on, 8 on, 12 on, 8 on, 4 on over 12 hours or so.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

The idea behind the Noon Siesta is for tanks with poor CO2 so that when the lights go off the plants stop using it and it can build up again. Then when the lights go on again the CO2 is back at a decent level.

This is mainly for tanks that are using yeast based setups or for pressurised users with poor circulation in the tank.

Otherwise the siesta is not useful.

As for Noon bursts I use a T5 HO Plant Growth Lamp for 10 hours with a T5 HO Daylight for the central 4 hours giving 0.9WPG, 1.8WPG, 0.9WPG <------I think this shows how out of date the old WPG based on T12 lamps is!!!!!

Andy


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Supercoley1 said:


> The idea behind the Noon Siesta is for tanks with poor CO2 so that when the lights go off the plants stop using it and it can build up again. Then when the lights go on again the CO2 is back at a decent level.
> 
> This is mainly for tanks that are using yeast based setups or for pressurised users with poor circulation in the tank.
> 
> ...


That's the first I've heard of a Noon Siesta from a co2 standpoint. I've always heard it from an algae prospective. I can't imagine how it would have anything to do with circulation. Most tanks are 3 to 4 feet wide. Are you saying that the co2 concentration is different from one side to another if their flow rates are low?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

CO2 concentration will vary all over the tank if there is poor circulation. The plants consume the CO2, so areas around plants will tend to have low concentrations without good circulation. And, any losses from the surface will be mostly at areas which are rippled or otherwise disturbed, introducing another concentration gradient. Circulation of the water is very necessary for good CO2 distribution.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

With circulation I mean that if you have CO2 one end and the circulation isn't very good then it will leave the water as it slowly mills through the tank water meaning a higher concentration at one end than the other.

As for the CO2 it has been suggested many times on many forums by many different respected people that inconsistent CO2 is friend to algae, so if the levels get low within the photoperiod 1 nutrient is gone, plants stop and therefore algae starts.

If you stop the photoperiod before reaching this point and let it build again then when you turn on the lights away they go again. Nutrient replenished.

Its much like pressurised users with solenoids turning their CO2 on an hour before lights on to let it build up only you are doing it twice in effect (although yeast doesn't need turning on and off it isn't as reliable a supply as we all know.)

Andy


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> CO2 concentration will vary all over the tank if there is poor circulation. The plants consume the CO2, so areas around plants will tend to have low concentrations without good circulation. And, any losses from the surface will be mostly at areas which are rippled or otherwise disturbed, introducing another concentration gradient. Circulation of the water is very necessary for good CO2 distribution.


I do understand the concept, but for practical purposes I don't think it affects most tanks. I think this is only in an extremely large tank or one with a very non-typical setup. I have a 4 foot tank and I'm only running an effective 80 gph on a 72g tank and I've never gotten a reading different on one side vs the other. But better proof is the plants grow and pearl exactly the same on either side. I don't think it's plausible IMO that co2 gas wouldn't diffuse evenly over that relatively small space with any type of normal filtration on the tank.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I base my belief about the effect of circulation on my experience with BBA. BBA tends to start up when the concentration of CO2 is low. If I set up the CO2, get great growth of the plants, I don't get BBA until the plant growth gets very thick and interferes with the circulation. If I then prune heavily to allow better circulation, and remove the BBA, it doesn't come back until the growth gets dense again. This could just be the heavy foliage using up the CO2, but my drop checker indicates that the level of CO2 stays about the same where the drop checker is located.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> I base my belief about the effect of circulation on my experience with BBA. BBA tends to start up when the concentration of CO2 is low. If I set up the CO2, get great growth of the plants, I don't get BBA until the plant growth gets very thick and interferes with the circulation. If I then prune heavily to allow better circulation, and remove the BBA, it doesn't come back until the growth gets dense again. This could just be the heavy foliage using up the CO2, but my drop checker indicates that the level of CO2 stays about the same where the drop checker is located.


Certainly all tanks are different, but I would believe the co2 is used up by the extra foliage as opposed to the slower circ. I've had my tank setup for over two years now with as I mentioned about one turn over an hour and I have no BBA nor other algae. I go by the way the plants look more than anything and they grow just as fast on either end of the tank. I have one spray bar on the left above a ceramic diffusor. I just can't understand how leaves on a plant would stop gas from diffusing throughout the water column, but that's just me.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> I just can't understand how leaves on a plant would stop gas from diffusing throughout the water column, but that's just me.


It isn't gas that is diffusing throughout the water column. The CO2 dissolves pretty rapidly into the water, where it ends up as carbonic acid and carbonates. It is the water itself that has to move around the tank. The mixing of enriched water and non-enriched water is pretty slow, as you can see by putting colored water into clear water and watching the mixing. Logic leads me to believe that you are right, and the water surely is pretty uniform in the tank. But, experience leads me to believe otherwise. Tom Barr is the one who persuaded me that you need very good circulation to get CO2 to all of the plants. If I had an empty tank, a spare canister filter with spray bar, and lots of plants to play around with, I would think about playing with adding dye to the incoming water and watching how it acts in the tank. Then a video of that would demonstrate....something. A nice science fair project if it weren't so expensive to set up.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> It isn't gas that is diffusing throughout the water column. The CO2 dissolves pretty rapidly into the water, where it ends up as carbonic acid and carbonates. It is the water itself that has to move around the tank. The mixing of enriched water and non-enriched water is pretty slow, as you can see by putting colored water into clear water and watching the mixing. Logic leads me to believe that you are right, and the water surely is pretty uniform in the tank. But, experience leads me to believe otherwise. Tom Barr is the one who persuaded me that you need very good circulation to get CO2 to all of the plants. If I had an empty tank, a spare canister filter with spray bar, and lots of plants to play around with, I would think about playing with adding dye to the incoming water and watching how it acts in the tank. Then a video of that would demonstrate....something. A nice science fair project if it weren't so expensive to set up.


Personally I don't thing it would take more than a few minutes for the water to turn color across a 3 foot tank with most canister filters and I'm just talking about the spray bar sending it across the tank let alone the filter turnover. Don't get me wrong we need circulation, I just don't think it takes alot to move things across 3 feet of water in most cases. And how would tall plants prevent the water from moving in and around everything? Please understand it's hard for me to understand these flow issues when I have a 4 foot tank and a 3 foot tank where the water is turned over only once an hour and my co2 levels are up in the 30s.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

One of the tests Tom Barr talked about performing some day when he had the time was to make a membrane type drop checker type pH probe, that would have a very fast response time. This would be a small probe, with a flat tip, having a thin layer of known KH distilled water held at the tip by a good semipermeable membrane. Then he could survey the CO2 distribution through out the tank. Today we have nothing to do that with. A drop checker reacts far too slowly to be used that way, and a conventional pH probe just doesn't measure CO2 accurately enough.

Plants don't stop the water circulation, but they do alter it, as the water takes the path of least resistance. I really would enjoy seeing a video as I described so we could visualize the mixing and the circulation in a tank. It would be fascinating to me, at least.


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

The poor circulation was just an example of CO2 being low. A larger turnover doesn't guarantee good circulation either.

Plants using CO2 can be 1 cause of the CO2 going down and of course if you then have the siesta then the CO2 can be replenished without upping your pressurised or adding 2 DIY etc.

You really want to set your CO2 and leave it at that level especially when it is pressurised but also with yeast.

Andy


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