# New Fish Dying In Quarantine Tank



## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm at a loss for words...here I am "doing the proper thing" by quarantining ALL of my new fish purchases, and they all are dieing an exact week after I get them. I posted threads on my rasbora espei dieing, and now two of my corys are gone. I'm down to one in the QT. The water parameters are amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 8. I'm very diligent on water changes every couple days, and constantly doing water tests. The tank was seeded with a sponge and bio media from my main tank. After I lost the rasboras, I tore down the QT and used 19/1 bleach solution to sterilize everything that was in the tank. I threw out all filter media as well. The tank was then set up for a week with heavy dechlorinated water. 

I purchased both kinds of fish at my lfs that usually has much better care/quality than both Pet***s of the area.

Please give me some insight...I'm getting ready to stop with the QT and place all new fish in my planted tank. I have 5 Danios in it currently who are doing great. I feel like I'm doing more than most just to get worse results than those who don't QT their new fish


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## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

I would check with the LFS and find out what their water perimeters are and try to duplicate them in your QT tank.

If that doesn't work, find another source of fish, and match their water conditions.

I had a friend 30 years ago that used distilled water, and most of the water tests, came out zero, and nothing lived. He really believed that distilled was the purest form of water. Which it might be, but not good for fish!!!

Best of Luck


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Thanks for the advice rockster. I have a feeling that there are other aquarists out there that don't have to match their store's water to be able to keep fish alive  I know my LFS uses RO water, but I really hate to start messing with that...I don't have the room to keep extra jugs of RO water when I need to do a water change.


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## Ridgeback (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*



tiffc said:


> I'm at a loss for words...here I am "doing the proper thing" by quarantining ALL of my new fish purchases, and they all are dieing an exact week after I get them. I posted threads on my rasbora espei dieing, and now two of my corys are gone. I'm down to one in the QT. The water parameters are amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 8. I'm very diligent on water changes every couple days, and constantly doing water tests. The tank was seeded with a sponge and bio media from my main tank. After I lost the rasboras, I tore down the QT and used 19/1 bleach solution to sterilize everything that was in the tank. I threw out all filter media as well. The tank was then set up for a week with heavy dechlorinated water.
> 
> I purchased both kinds of fish at my lfs that usually has much better care/quality than both Pet***s of the area.
> 
> Please give me some insight...I'm getting ready to stop with the QT and place all new fish in my planted tank. I have 5 Danios in it currently who are doing great. I feel like I'm doing more than most just to get worse results than those who don't QT their new fish


I am a newbie to the planted tank world but something caught my eye in your water parameters...pH of 8! Is this a typo? This seems really high to me. I know the previous post mentioned trying to match the water conditions of your LFS (good advice). If their pH is closer to the 7 range you could be sending your fish into shock. Danios are really hardy but Corys (and my guess Rasboras are too) are more sensitive to higher pH. You will want to try to set your QT tank to closely match the water params of your planted tank (which I bet has a lower ph than 8 ).

What gravel/substrate are you using in the QT? Are their any rocks in the QT? The rocks or substrate might also contribute to a high pH if they have any calcium in them

Just my $.02...good luck. I hope you get this figured out soon because you ARE trying to do the right thing!


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

My planted tank's ph is 8 too! There is no substrate in the tank whatsoever, I just have a slate rock, hidey hole, and a few silk and plastic plants.

Thanks for the quick replies everyone...if changing the using RO water is the way to go, then I'll have to do it...

Keep the ideas running!!!


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Oh, and don't you think that other fish keepers in the area would have trouble keeping these fish too??? It seems like I would have heard of this problem before through the public. Or even the LFS would warn that it's best to use RO?


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

Geeez, I was in such a rush to get this thread posted I misspelled "dying." :shock:

Sorry for the major typo...that's gonna bother me every time I look at this thread.


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## Ridgeback (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Wow...that pH just seems off the hook high to me. :shock:

From what I've read and know most plants like neutral to slightly acidic water (there are exceptions to be sure). I think you need to lower your pH. RO water is a way to do it but there are other ways (peat, CO2, etc.). Where I am at (Minneapolis) I don't have the high pH issue so I am not an expert here...anyone else have any good ideas?

You could ask your LFS for some help here too...they may have some alternate strategies to lower your pH.

As you said you'd think others would be having problems too or most of their customers are buying RO water...


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Gererally the pH value goes down to the acid range in a tank. Mains water or water supplied by a municipal facility is buffered up to above eight so that acid water does not eat the pipes. So unless you have well water it is more than likely that you will have water that has a high pH.

pH is a log scale and a very small change can stress the critters so getting the water change water to closely match the tank water is wise. A change of one whole value (i.e. from seven to eight or vice versa) is huge and can kill fish. This is one of the reasons that most experienced hobbyists always caution against messing with pH unless you truly are trying to accomplish something very specific and know what you are doing.

RO water and distilled water are essentially the same in that they both lack various things other than what is added or depending what they are stored in. Water is called the universal solvent and will quickly begin to dissolve whatever it is stored in. So called distilled water does not stay absolutely pure very long but for all practical purposes distilled water is very pure as is RO water and the convience of having ones own RO unit appeals and cost can be a factor. Most hobbyists that use RO or distilled water add a certain percentage of tap water. The percentage depends upon what they are trying to do and what is in the tap water to begin with.

Most fish get acclimated to a certain water in a given area and will survive and reproduce quite nicely under less than ideal conditions. so do not concern yourself with pH unless it is truly outrageous in which case others will be dealing with the same situation. Even though there is not much money being spent on the hobby for original research the actual hobby is huge and there are hobbyists all over the place and someone dealing with strange situations.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Yep, in Lafayette, we have hard, high pH water  I would read online about else where people keeping fish in high ph though, but perhaps their ph wasn't as high as mine...

My LFS was trying to talk me into buying RO water too, I thought it was just a sales ploy. Little did I know! So I wonder if balancing out RO and my tap will help lower ph and soften the water too? I know there's something one should watch out for...kH? gH? Something about if those fluctuate too much it's harmful to fish?

Geez, I feel like a newbie all over again.  Lost, lost!


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Thanks for the info Cliff! My problem is I have no idea what's going on. I rather not mess with ph, in fact I always told myself that I wouldn't. But I can't keep killing fish either.

Any ideas on what else could be a culprit?


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

IDEA: 
Replicate the water parameters of LFS in QT, then slowly do water changes and "reacclimate" new fish to MY main tank's parameters. Basically reducing shock but still allowing me to keep my main tank's water unchanged.

Thoughts?


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

More important than pH is the GH and KH. 
Soft water fish (most Tetras and Rasboras for example) want water with a GH and KH under about 5 German degrees of hardness. Some will handle harder water (to about 9 degrees).

When you are acclimating new fish to your water make the quarantine tank match the water in the bag (the store water) for GH and KH. pH is less critical.

If the GH and KH in your tap water are higher than 10 German degrees then you will want to either: Keep fish that are best for these conditions OR alter your water to keep soft water fish.
If the GH and KH are between 5-10 degrees then some species, usually thought of as soft water fish, but have been bred in captivity for many generations will handle this water, which is harder than their ancestors could tolerate.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Ok, so I need to adjust my GH and KH...could I use RO water for that? Or is there another method? So getting my QT to the parameters of the LFS is the way to go, but can I slowly adjust the QT to match my tank?

I'm very unfamiliar with both of these ranges, I'll be doing some research on my own, but if anyone can offer advice on what they would do in this situation, please let me know!


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

I know my water does not match the water of my LFS because I use RO water. I don't test my water much and I don't try to match it to the LFS water or the water in the bag. I have been successful in keeping many sensitive species this way with a QT.

My guess is that you got bad fish from the LFS which can happen from good LFS's. I consider buying fish like buying fruit. It is a gamble and sometimes you get bad ones.

I would put one or a few of your established fish from you main tank into the QT to make sure the QT is not harboring something. This will not provide a guarantee that it is safe as some fish will tolerate a problem that other fish will not. But if you put danios in the QT and they die and they had been fine for a long time in your main tank you have to assume something is wrong with the QT. If the established fish do fine in the QT, I would try another batch of new fish (not too many) and move the old established fish out before you introduce the new fish into the QT.

I'd encourage you to stick with the QT, because if you do introduce a disease into the main tank it can be a real pain to treat and you may have the problem you have now with your QT, but in your main tank.

I've had similar problems with cardinal tetras. I bought a group and they all lived. The next group all died in the QT. Same QT, same LFS. I checked the QT parameters and everything was in line. Next I bought 4 cardinals to make sure they would be ok and all 4 lived. I think the ones that died were just a bad batch.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

One more thing:

I use the following acclimation technique:

Float bag for 10-15 minutes.
open bag and add 1/4 to 1/2 cup of water. Repeat every 5 minutes. I do this 3 to 6 times before I add the fish to the QT. You shouldn't add the bag water to the QT, but I usually do.

For more sensitive fish (apistos and cardinals) I will tend towards 1/4 water addition every 5 minutes with a total of 6 times.

The exact way you do it is not so important, but I wouldn't just dump them in as soon as you get home.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Thanks for the advice, I REALLY appreciate all the posts 

Jeremy, you said you do use RO water where as your LFS doesn't, I'm the opposite...could my water be just too harsh/hard in general for these fish? Both species of fish that have died came from separate new "batches" at the LFS. Both came in at least 3 weeks apart.

I acclimate the fish to the QT close to the same way you do; possibly with less water additions though. I will adjust this factor next time. All in all, the fish "float" in the bags with small water changes for at least 30-45 min. before placing them in the QT.

It's hard to figure out what path I need to go here...I know I like certain species that do prefer softer water, but I don't know how "drastic" I need to change my water to get it to the right levels....I'm gonna go buy a kh/gh test kit soon, it'll help me get some ranges to post.


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## The Rockster (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*



tiffc said:


> Thanks for the advice rockster. I have a feeling that there are other aquarists out there that don't have to match their store's water to be able to keep fish alive  I know my LFS uses RO water, but I really hate to start messing with that...I don't have the room to keep extra jugs of RO water when I need to do a water change.


Ph of 8.0 is a little high, I would find out what the Ph is of the source water. Also acclimating the new arrivals with the drip method is the preferred method. (If your not familiar with this method, Foster & Smith has the drip kit with free advice on acclimation.) The larger the Ph difference the long and slower the acclimation show be (up to 2 hours).

I have fish that cost me $60.00-$100.00 each, and never had a problem with introducing them and keeping them alive and healthy for a least months, some years, using this ideology. I use tap water here, and have bought fish from the breeder or LFS that uses R/O water, with no problems getting the new fish used to the tap.

Good Luck.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

*Re: New Fish Dieing In Quarantine Tank*

Ok, that's comforting rockster. So that should mean that if I acclimate the fish very slowly to my higher ph/harder water, they should be ok??? I really don't know if adjusting my water parameters to the softer side is what I should do, or if it's possible the fish will adjust to my water.

I'm still wondering too, if indeed it is the major difference in water that is killing off these fish. I think I will add one of my Danios to the QT for a while to see if there's anything else that could be the culprit. Of course, bleaching out the QT a few weeks ago would have killed off any disease...


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

tiffc said:


> Geeez, I was in such a rush to get this thread posted I misspelled "dying." :shock:
> 
> Sorry for the major typo...that's gonna bother me every time I look at this thread.


Fixed


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

A week is a long time for them to live and then die if its a pH issue. I would think that it would kill them much faster if that were the issue. I wonder if it's just a coincidence of bad fish or that you have some pathogen in the tank. It would be great if you could borrow a UV from someone. That kills lots of bad things that are out there. You might even think about investing in one for your OT tank.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

Haha, thanks so much for fixing the typo Tex Gal!!!! It was so bothersome lol!

Interesting point though Tex, they last exactly a week in QT....
Would you mess with the hardness/pH if your water parameters were like mine?


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh, and here's another thought...would I still have a pathogen/disease in the QT tank even though I tore it down and bleached it out a couple weeks ago (after the mass die off of Rasbora Espei)??? 

Sometimes I wonder if the seeding material for the filter isn't good enough to have my QT ready for fish, but I'm constantly checking and no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates are detected.

I greatly appreciate all the brainstorming going on...this forum is fantastic


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

UPDATE:
Called my local PetSmart to ask what their pH range is that they keep their fish in and....it's between 7.8 and 8! They use city water just like me. No RO water to soften it up...just plain city tap water. 

Makes me wonder if I my next batch of fish shouldn't come from them to test the theory of whether or not the pH shift is killing off my fish. I have a feeling they don't have the exact rasbora espei's I want, but I'll have to keep looking. Thanks for listening


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

After my post this thread will stop growing. Because there is not much to say other than what you will read below. Call me cocky, that changes nothing. Actually it's a rather sad reading.

*Pet Fish Stores never quarantine fresh water fish*. They get fish from wholesalers whose job is to move fish from point A to point B and make money. Not to make you, the customer, happy. You get fish very much straight from the airplane. Some batches do great, not a single fish dead. Some batches (of the same fish) die 100%. No matter how much you try to find a reason why the fish die it's not you that is at fault. The fish have been severely stressed being shipped. Or shipped sick anyway. You are being mislead to believe that "the fish store knows what they are doing". Or that they care about the fish. All they care about is money.

The newly arrived fish do not die in the first few days every time. Sometimes the entire batch dies the next day. Some times a few fish die every few days for no apparent reason until the entire batch is gone. Sometimes the fish are fine for 2-3 weeks and then start to die. If the store cared about you getting healthy fish they should quarantine at least 2 weeks. Even better - 1 month. They do not.

Diagnosing a disease and using the (expensive) medicine scientifically developed for that disease is a shot in the dark. That's right - just a bet. The only disease that is curable is Ich. And not all of the varieties. Some Ich varieties are long lasting - 1-2 months. Ich is the only disease that is curable and not in all cases. Everything else is very much a lottery game.

The way to make sure you get quality fish is to buy from a vendor that has a good reputation. Even then you may get sick fish. Websites hate to allienate their sponsors. They will not allow negative feedback. Also it's a common thing for vendors to manipulate their own feedback. Or to call you a liar if you publicly describe a bad experience. The only way to protect the customer is to guarantee their money back. (Once again money seems to mean more than healthy fish...) Of course don't ask a vendor for crazy things - for example to refund your money after the fish have been in your tank for more than 24 hours. Before that it's ok to request a refund.

That writing was not fun. I wrote the truth, 100%, and it does not feel good. It makes the hobby seem low and crooked. Let's close on a positive note - in rare occasions you can find vendors that do quarantine, do deal with healthy fish, and do respect the "joy of the hobby" that a fish purchase is supposed to bring. Learn how to find them and deal with them.

--Nikolay


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

I agree with Niko and have one thing to add.

A great place to get healthy fish is from other hobbyists. You can get great healthy fish from fish clubs. Of course they don't have the selection and the convenience of a pet store, but sometimes you can find unusual fish. I've had great luck with my fish club in Cincinnati.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

THANK YOU Niko...I 100% agree with what you said, and it was well said. I am constantly beating myself up over this issue and wondering what I could possibly be doing wrong. Instead, perhaps I need to take a back seat to all this and stop trying to prevent an outcome that has a good chance of happening again. It's so sad (and pathetic really) that aquarists have to go through this. I can't imagine all the people (my mom being one of them) that turned away from this hobby over misinformation and battling dying fish. No one that cares for their pets can sit and watch over and over again new purchases fading away.

I guess awareness is key and I need to look out for better quality fish when possible! Thanks again, I really appreciate all the feedback I have received. This afternoon, I was contemplating turning my back on this hobby, thinking that maybe it wasn't for me. Now, I've learned a valuable lesson and I have to continue! I love this hobby and sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.

Now that I've gone all sappy on everyone, I'll shut my mouth and do a water change :violin:

Thanks again everyone


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Tiffc - glad you have gotten your second wind. Even though you may get bad batches of fish there are many that do well - otherwise we would all have fishless tanks. Niko is right, as usual. He has the experience to back up his words. Look at it this way - you can give some lucky fish a good home. 

To answer your question - I would not adjust my pH for the long term. I might be tempted to use R/O to bring it down in the beginning but then wean the fish up to my own water over a few days. That's all I'd do. Drip acclimating is a faster attempt to do this.

I would invest in a UV. I have one on my big tank, but not on any of the others.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

Thanks Tex Gal! It's nice to be in the company of honest, reliable, fellow hobbyists! I will look into UV systems, any advice on one for a 20 gallon tank? Seems like they all punch a huge amount of water flow. I would worry that the current would be strong. Maybe I'm not searching for the right ones though.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Most have a rating for a certain size tank. You can always call the company and ask questions. That's what I did. The longer the water stays in the light the more pathogens it kills. The idea is for slower flow not faster flow. At least that is what I understand.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Hi tiffc,

The next time you bring back a bag of fish, you may want to run some tests (pH, GH, KH, etc) on the bag water to find out exactly how they differ from that of your quarantine tank water.

Whenever I bring back a bag of fish, I always dip a TDS and pH probe into the bag to get a reading. Couple times, the readings were so far apart from that of my tank water I drip acclimated for more than six hours and the fishes were fine.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

Thanks bartoli, I will do that. Next time my fish WILL be acclimated for a very long time. I've been looking into easy DIY ways to make a drip kit. Seems like airline tubing, rubber bands to slow down siphon flow and a bucket to place fish in.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

You're welcome tiffc. Using a valve that came with the Penn-plax airline tubing, I get very good control on flow rate:

http://www.amazon.com/Penn-Plax-Total-Air-Aeration/dp/B0002565O8

While the drip acclimation was going on, I periodically siphoned water out of the bag - just fill a line of tubing with water and dip one end into the bag.

BTW, with drip acclimation there is no need to flow bag in tank water.


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

I actually did a test run with knotting up airline tubing in a bucket and it seemed to work really well...I was surprised at how much control I had over the drip flow.

Glad to now have a better method of getting these fish acclimated to my water parameters!


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Bump for Rasbora Espei, I have a group of 13 in my 33 long and I love their colors. Lost none, since the lfs has the same water quality as I do at home. 

I wish you luck getting your parameters correct!

-Gordon


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## tiffc (Jan 8, 2010)

I love their colors as well, Gordon! I just received a shipment in of them yesterday and drip acclimated them for several hours. They are all in the tank now and I'm hoping all will be well!


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