# Club Organizational Status



## Cocobid (Jan 26, 2007)

After the meeting on Sunday my best friend was over for dinner. He is a Lawyer & CPA and was going over some of the topics discussed regarding fund raising and legal status etc. He did share some concerns regarding charitable status~~ But he will look into some options for us if it is ok with the group?? As my friend~~~ 
If this is a direction the club wants to pursue. So bank accounts etc can be established. 
Just opening up more dialog here on the boards for those that were not able to attend so they can get up to speed...


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

I think it is worth looking into, even if we decide to leave it as a future option.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

yep look in to to please... I would like to see a account where all members could put money in to it where we could have a big dinner at a rest. onces a month or, do some fun activies like dallas aquarium, or dallas world aquarium.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

I like the idea of establishing our club as a legal entity. This concretes us as legit organization opening up greater opportunities. We could file under 501(c)3 as an charitable organization or 501(c)3 as an educational organization. The requirements for the educational organization as follows: 1. The instruction or training of individuals for the purpose of improving or developing their capabilities, or 2. The instruction of the public on subjects useful to individuals and beneficial to the community. We qualify as an organization whose activities consist of conducting public discussion groups, forums, panels, lectures, or other similar programs. 

Which ever direction we want to go, we would need to start working on our Articles of Organization.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Having gone through the incorporation process with several organizations, achieving 501(c)3 status with the IRS involves a lot of paperwork both before and after the status is granted. Especially onerous are the accounting and reporting that a 501(c)3 must do as long as the organization exists.

501(c)4 status is much easier to attain and keep. The main difference is that dues/donations to the club will not be tax deductible for members or contributors. This is a slight disadvantage, but more than made up for by the much easier procedures required. This is especially true for an organization with as small a budget as ours.

For example, my neighborhood association went through all this about 4 years ago. After weighing options, the board was unanimous in deciding that the 501(c)3 status was not worth the headache. And this is for an organization with an annual budget of $20,000. We are now a happy 501(c)4.

--Michael


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Michael said:


> Having gone through the incorporation process with several organizations, achieving 501(c)3 status with the IRS involves a lot of paperwork both before and after the status is granted. Especially onerous are the accounting and reporting that a 501(c)3 must do as long as the organization exists.
> 
> 501(c)4 status is much easier to attain and keep. The main difference is that dues/donations to the club will not be tax deductible for members or contributors. This is a slight disadvantage, but more than made up for by the much easier procedures required. This is especially true for an organization with as small a budget as ours.
> 
> ...


Very valid point. Especially since the loss of tax deductibility isn't much of a loss considering the small dollar amount involved. Besides, I think dues as a revenue source are a dead end if we really want to add more interesting options to the club in the long run, which we will have to do if we want increase and sustain membership.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

Do we qualify for 501(c)5 Horticultural Organization?


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

A lot depends on what the club wants to be and do. I thought we already were a legal entity, there was a treasurer and apparently the club hosted a show a few years ago and made so much from it that the club has had money for things without really collecting dues or anything. 

While it would help for there to be some consistency in event organization, I personally find it enjoyable to just visit one another's houses and see their tanks, have the occasional party, etc. Field trips are fun too. 

I'm a non-conformist, but it seems like overthinking it to assume every club needs a president, vp, treasurer, etc. If we become some forms of legal entities, that does add overhead in terms of paperwork and record keeping, etc. And while some organizations like the robotics club wants that so corporations can donate equipment to them, but they also have a space they lease to keep it in. So while people could donate stuff to us, I'm not sure what we'd do with it. 

There is also the thing with doing shows. I'm all for going to a cool trade show of any topic. But I've noticed the tendency is for each little club to try to put together a show for themselves only. So we have a cichlid show, l livebearers show, a killi show, a discus show, a plant show, etc. And while there are the snobs that are only into one thing, many of us have some interest in other things. So rather than try to generate the resources to put on a show as a sole club, it seems like ti would be more efficient to pool resources and do a big show that combines topics. It's a lot of work to do an aquatic show, setting up tanks, etc. Have a periodic mega show and have seminars/topics that cover all interests. Big tradeshows have "tracks" so we could have the "plant track" and the "discus track" etc. and people could mix and match as desired. It seems like the shows could be bigger and better and the work and financial investment distributed among more people. 

/rant

Michael


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## AquaCamp (May 31, 2010)

Well put, I agree 100% with your thoughts in relation to the trade shows.


MacFan said:


> There is also the thing with doing shows. I'm all for going to a cool trade show of any topic. But I've noticed the tendency is for each little club to try to put together a show for themselves only. So we have a cichlid show, l livebearers show, a killi show, a discus show, a plant show, etc. And while there are the snobs that are only into one thing, many of us have some interest in other things. So rather than try to generate the resources to put on a show as a sole club, it seems like ti would be more efficient to pool resources and do a big show that combines topics. It's a lot of work to do an aquatic show, setting up tanks, etc. Have a periodic mega show and have seminars/topics that cover all interests. Big tradeshows have "tracks" so we could have the "plant track" and the "discus track" etc. and people could mix and match as desired. It seems like the shows could be bigger and better and the work and financial investment distributed among more people.
> 
> /rant
> 
> Michael


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

I agree with macfan....I'm all for trade shows and getting more people involved,BUT IT'S GOT TO BE THE RIGHT TYPE OF PEOPLE!!!!..I like how this group is a tight nit friendly caring group. but open to different things... I don't like monarchy, and I don't want to see this GREAT Club turn in to a Monarchy club where it's in my opinion will turn in to a I'm the king of the group you can't say this or that or do this or that and if you do I will hit the key board with my self righteous fingers of retribution and banned you/you can't come to the meeting because this or that, or minor petty B.S.
the only thing I don't want are arrogent,snoby,bullies,or people that will use people for hiden of genda in the group.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

MacFan said:


> A lot depends on what the club wants to be and do. I thought we already were a legal entity, there was a treasurer and apparently the club hosted a show a few years ago and made so much from it that the club has had money for things without really collecting dues or anything.
> 
> While it would help for there to be some consistency in event organization, I personally find it enjoyable to just visit one another's houses and see their tanks, have the occasional party, etc. Field trips are fun too.
> 
> ...


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## Cocobid (Jan 26, 2007)

Michael's I totally agree with both of you!!! Small organizations like ours go through spurts of activity and then very quiet times. If the group chooses to pursue a formal/legal organizational process this is not something that someone can just stop doing....it must be tended to on a quarterly basis. I'm not advocating one direction or another, just that opening the door to a formal fed filing status brings with it a commitment and paperwork.

Having been around the group for a few years we see a constant flow of new faces. Not sure how long this group has been established??? but I truly do want it to survive. Informally or formally. We have a really unique ability that so few communities have...we can get together and share & swap our bounties of information and goods.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

We have had a slow summer for sure, but I don't see a need to make the club over. All in all our club has worked very well. We have much money in our treasury and have had wonderful meetings. We have had great field trips and such. 

We have new members that want to be involved. We have a plethora of new ideas. All these are great. I'd suggest that we continue to build on what we have and don't make it over. We had a slow summer because people didn't have time to attend OR didn't want to host. If we had trouble sustaining the status quo for a while, how does talking about new events like fund raisers and shows help that?

I hope that we just have elections and from there get our meetings up and running regularly and go from there. Even the idea of a meal and door prises at each meeting is new. We have always left that up to the host. If we assume that this is needed each time it will be more of a burden to find hosts and/or attend.

... anyway, that's my two cents.... :biggrin:


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

TexGal, being one of the new people, I agree. I think the new members were frustrated at slow pace and lack of information about meetings, dues, treasury, etc. All of this has been a discussion about how to revitalize the club, with no firm decisions made.

We definitely need to get the basic structure working (however much structure we decide we want), before we attempt something as ambitious as a show or auction. The two most pressing issues seem to be a working communication system, and accounting for dues collected from current and new members.

The meal at meetings was just part of the example from my book club--I do not think it is a good idea for this club.

For myself, I would be happy just to have the opportunity to see experienced member's beautiful aquaria and learn from you!

--Michael


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## mike cameron (Aug 11, 2004)

Ben dropped me a note about the discussions on the forum, so I thought I'd log in and make some comments (check the website thread as well). As a long time member (nearly 10 years) and officer of the club I hope I can give some perspective to the discussion. The club has investigated 501(c) type status in previous years, and the work load required was an issue. If the club wants to be a professional organization, this might be an avenue to pursue, but to date I have not seen it to be worth the effort. In prior years, the club has been driven by a group of dedicated individuals that have helped move it forward, but we have had issues recruiting new members to take the elected offices of Pres/VP/Sec/Treasurer. This has lead to the same people being elected to the same offices year after year, and led to officer "burn-out". This is a problem in many organizations I have been part of, and is not a DFWAPC specific issue. It helps to have a defined "leadership team" if the club wants to tackle big projects, like the AGA 2003 conference that was held in Dallas, or just to work with other local institutions. But it takes a lot of dedication that usually gets dumped on this team to make it happen. I like Michael's comments on the least organization necessary, as this club has seemed to work best with the informal setting. I'd love to see more discussion on the topic, so keep the ideas flowing.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

what ever works, works.


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## Tex Guy (Nov 23, 2008)

digital_gods said:


> I like the idea of establishing our club as a legal entity. This concretes us as legit organization opening up greater opportunities. We could file under 501(c)3 as an charitable organization or 501(c)3 as an educational organization. The requirements for the educational organization as follows: 1. The instruction or training of individuals for the purpose of improving or developing their capabilities, or 2. The instruction of the public on subjects useful to individuals and beneficial to the community. We qualify as an organization whose activities consist of conducting public discussion groups, forums, panels, lectures, or other similar programs.
> 
> Which ever direction we want to go, we would need to start working on our Articles of Organization.


Count me as a vote against formal corporate organization. It just brings an overhead of paperwork and cost. For example, who wants to do the annual tax return every year?

I'm not sure what tremendous opportunities we are missing. I'm not looking for much other than contact with other hobbyists.


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## Vivarium Concepts (Sep 6, 2006)

*I like the idea of keeping the club 'informal'.*


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

Tex Guy said:


> Count me as a vote against formal corporate organization. It just brings an overhead of paperwork and cost. For example, who wants to do the annual tax return every year?
> 
> I'm not sure what tremendous opportunities we are missing. I'm not looking for much other than contact with other hobbyists.


smarts,techinalogy,more then just plants,biochem, etc
religion will crash you in to buildings, science will take you to the moon.


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## Tex Guy (Nov 23, 2008)

fishyjoe24 said:


> smarts,techinalogy,more then just plants,biochem, etc


Maybe you could elucidate how incorporating would bring us more smarts and techinalogy...


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

As a president of the club for many years I will lay out my view on how the club needs to be run. My detailed response is a result of 2 phone calls that I got this last week.

We need to be realistic about the goals of the club. *The main goal is to keep the club going*. No matter how we do that the only measure for the club's success is the answer to the question "Is the club still active?"

In the last several years I've tried to do one single thing - to make people interested in the club, or in the club already, feel that this is an enjoyable hobby. That is the only approach that actually works in keeping the club going.

Over the years one thing has really stuck up over and over. The monthly meeting attendance drops sharply if too much "organization" is involved. The only time when organization is appreciated (and rightfully expected) is when we organize field trips.

In the last few years every single monthly meeting has been a success. If people hang around and do not want to leave quickly one knows something good is going on. Renting a place to meet or meeting at a local pet store are not the best ideas - most people usually leave quickly after the main activity is over.

Every club around the country is actually keep afloat by only a few people. Often a single person. That's how it has been for years. For some reason in the planted aquarium hobby things work that way.

I have adopted a hands off approach with two things in mind - first, I do not want to "burn out" and second, casually involving everybody in the organization of the monthly meetings works well toward the main goal - keep the club active. Every so often, without a lot of noise, we get into more organized events. That always feels like a special thing, and has worked well over the years.

In the last few weeks there was a lot of discussion about the club's organization, future, and reorganization. My only goal as a president is, once again, to keep the club going. I have a little insider information why the Houston club was disolved. The essence is that they split into oposing groups. I do NOT want any of that happening in Dallas/Fort Worth. If we start to argue all of us know where that will lead - the good feeling will be gone and DFWAPC will cease to exist as we know it now.

Those are some of the things that I cannot deny seeing over the years. The club cannot be run as a sleek organized entity with a callendar, timelines, and everything planned precisely. Contrary to common logic that will lead to an exremely fast reduction in activity.

What we see today as the DFWAPC club activity is a result of an extensive evolution. It's the most practical way to keep the club going.

Anybody that feels they can contribute to the goal of keeping the club going in the long run, please comment here.

--Nikolay


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Nikolay, thank you for your years of effort! As someone new to the planted aquarium hobby, I am very grateful that there is an active club in my area.

As a prospective new member, it seems to me that much of the recent discussion is prompted by lack of communication with potential/new members about dues, meetings, and activities of the club. I have not paid my dues yet because I do not have a PayPal account, and have not found anyone who wanted to accept my cash or check.

Just improving dues, membership, and communication functions will serve the goal of keeping the club active and alive.

My personal motivation to join the club is to learn. I've read everything I can find on planted aquaria, but you can learn only so much by reading. Now I need to see successful planted tanks, and talk to the talented, experienced people who created them. In just two meetings I have learned a tremedous amount! And the the generosity of members with their extra plants is astounding.

I look forward to meeting you in person at the November meeting, and talking with you at many meetings to come. I have an idea for a field trip next spring.

--Michael Parkey


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## Tex Guy (Nov 23, 2008)

Bravo Nikolay, you're one of my heroes when it comes to things aquatic.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

me I just like to learn more about science and nature. I will take the science side over the media side... I'm very liberal and like to speak my mind.but I know it can get me in trouble and I'm working on walking away. I can go out side the box, but I also know how to return in to the box. 

paul?(tex guy for got your name) what I mean when I say smarter, is learning more about the bio-topic that the plants come and there science name, and all the different stuff of the aquarium, KH,GH,PH,etc etc etc. I liked how your wife told us the science names of the plants and where they came from at the aug. meeting.I found it very good with info.. vs going to a store where they have no ideal about the plant and just want to make money.

just my opinion, but It seems like some of us are just stressed out with questions we can't answer, or we do not know and we are taking it to the key board, when we don't mean to be. 

ac/dc have a drink on me, now have a drink on me.

a wise man, once said all I know is that I don't know nothing at all.

I know, and it just my opinion and what I observe but we all come on here to relax and share a common bond of aquariums, aquarium plants, and fish.. but yet this month and part of sept. we all got stressed and took are stress from family,life,friends, and work out on each other which leads me to this.........................> 

what's funny about the internet no one can see each others faces, or there body language,or there reaction to responds on this board. because the internet covers that up. vs real life where you can have a adult intellectual conversation about concerns and questions... vs having a key board to go crazy on....

we are all friends here and I'm hoping it stays that way, even if we have differences in (ideals,concerns,politics,religion etc) 

my simple answer that I thought about well at dinner with my dad tonight.
if we don't agree with something, so it doesn't get out of hand" sorry, but I will just Kindly disagree with you have a good day."... simple and easy...


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

fishyjoe24 said:


> me I just like to learn more about science and nature....I liked how your wife told us the science names of the plants and where they came from at the aug. meeting...we all come on here to relax and share a common bond of aquariums, aquarium plants, and fish...we are all friends here and I'm hoping it stays that way, even if there are differences...


Joey, that sounds very similar to the message that Niko is trying to send, I believe...that the DFWAPC is about friends getting together to enjoy their common hobby.

The only structure you need there is a place to sit and an aquarium to oogle at (except when it's time to organize a trip or contest). 

Sorry again for butting in.


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## alta678 (Mar 24, 2009)

Nikolay, I personally want to thank you for all you have done for this club. I have enjoyed the many meetings I have attended. I too agree that the informal relaxed format has worked well for the club and would hate to see that change. Like many people here, I lead a very busy life and enjoy the informal but respectful nature of this club.


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## Ricky Cain (Jan 23, 2004)

niko said:


> As a president of the club for many years I will lay out my view on how the club needs to be run. My detailed response is a result of 2 phone calls that I got this last week.
> 
> We need to be realistic about the goals of the club. *The main goal is to keep the club going*. No matter how we do that the only measure for the club's success is the answer to the question "Is the club still active?"
> --Nikolay


I like this post Nikolay. In the end that is all that matters is that there still a club around. When this club was started there were roughly only two other clubs that were really active, SFBAAPS and GWAPA.

I really do appreciate all you have done Nikolay to keep things going.

From what I see there are still people wanting to keep it going strong. This club exists in the virtual world as well as the real one and I would say the activity is good. Could it be better? Sure and it certainly will be.


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