# Betta tank Walstad Now Journal



## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Hello all, been into tanks for decades now and on a different planted tank forum for years and recently found this forum that seemed more equiped to assist in my current delima.

I finally got a Fluval Spec III this May and got everything set up for a betta tank.
Four months later im at a crossroads between turning high tech with a paintball co2 set up or trying a variation of the Wastlad method.

Current tank specs

Stock Fluval filter and pump
Purigen bag in filter
Eheim Jagee 25watt heater
Micros- 1/64 mon thurs
KNO3- 1/16 tues fri
KH2PO4- 1/64 tues fri
Enhance liquid carbon . .3ml at arounfd 8:30 am
Lights on a kasa timer. On at 9am off at 1pm on at 3pm off at 7:30 pm.
50%water changes on sunday

Tank Residents

Betta (Captian Pan)
Mystery Snail (Plum)
Netrite Snail (Hypno)

Flora
-Buce: Kappas, Sylvia and a third

Ctypt. Nurii phang mutated
Crypt. Green gecko
Crypt. Wendttii bronze
Rotala H'ra
Hydrocotyle Trip. Japan.
Star Grass
Sty. Repens
Pearl weed
staurogyne porta velho
Java fern

So part of the reason im having this debate is because of issues im having. The biggest issue really being the drastically differnt plant growth on the right vs left sides of the tank.
I can go into more detial if needed.
When this began to happen i immediayly began to think i was lacking in co2 for the lighting on the tank. Hense the research into a paintball co2 setup.

I wanted this tank to be middle ground. Not low tech but not high tech but clearly something is off.
I did not really want to go high tech on this nanao but i also did not want go fo the Walstad method on a established tank and have to deal with soil.

Then i found a article in Aquarium Hobbyist Magazine 2nd quater 2021 volume 5 where Paula Castro wrote a article about a walstad bowl she had and used Seachems Flourite Black as substrate. I liked the look of her bowl and wanted to see if i could adapt some of the Wastald methods into my betts tank with out having to loose plant varity or color variation.

I used a CaribSea rio grande substrate because i liked the look. Now im wondering if i should swap substrate but i had been told that the substrates with additives for plants were useless because once the nutrients, that i was told only last about 6 months, were used from them they were no different then any other substrate.

Another issue is if i need a stronger light. A post on the Planted Tank rated the new Fluval spec light at 60-70 PAR at substrate. If thats the case them why do my stem plants cral out on me on the left side of the tank.
Hopefully someone can make sense of this rambling and give some suggestions for which direction i should take or changes improve the health of the plants and overall eycosystem in the tank.
Heres a pic of the current set up which o despise right now most everything had been shoved into the right side of the tank.








The crypts and buce all do very well.
The trip. Japan is doing poorly as well as the pearl weed. I had ludwigia x lacustris, it was the first victium of the left side of the tank.
If i need to clarify or add more pics i will.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's not the lights. Why are you doing 50% water changes every week (has the tank cycled?) You have no soil to speak of. Very little livestock. And you're emptying whatever nutrients that are left down the drain every week. Try planting something in a tiny container of soil and cap it with a tiny bit of gravel and place it in the bare corner and compare the growth. Trader Joe's sells a brand of k-cups that would do nicely in a betta tank.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC!

Your first decision is whether to use CO2 or not. CO2 means high light and artificial fertilization. If you don't want to do that, then do a Walstad tank with soil substrate. Johnwesley's suggestion of a small pot or tray with some soil is a way to test the idea. Put one of your crypts in it.

If you want to go "full Walstad" you could use your Carib Sea as the cap over soil. Take out the Purigen, it is removing the nutrients.

The left side of the tank seems to have very shallow substrate. That might be part of the problem. And the light may not be distributed evenly over both sides of the tank. I have no idea how the lights are set up on the Spec. If they do truly produce 60-70 PAR, that is PLENTY of light.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> It's not the lights. Why are you doing 50% water changes every week (has the tank cycled?) You have no soil to speak of. Very little livestock. And you're emptying whatever nutrients that are left down the drain every week. Try planting something in a tiny container of soil and cap it with a tiny bit of gravel and place it in the bare corner and compare the growth. Trader Joe's sells a brand of k-cups that would do nicely in a betta tank.


The tank is fully cycled only took about 3 weeks for a fishless cycle when i set it up.

Im doing 30%-50% water changes because in my research and experence in the hobby thats just what you do. Espically when your doseing ferts in the EI method. It what i had read and what i had been told by other experienced hobbyist.

My understanding was that my light and limited co2 do not allow for optiomal plant growth. So the plants only use x% of ferts/nutriants do water changes on weekends to remove excess which wpuld not be used and posdibly lead to toxic build up trace elements and alage growth.

Also i tend to overfees my fish which i know is esswntally a capital offence in the fish keeping world.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> Your first decision is whether to use CO2 or not. CO2 means high light and artificial fertilization. If you don't want to do that, then do a Walstad tank with soil substrate. Johnwesley's suggestion of a small pot or tray with some soil is a way to test the idea. Put one of your crypts in it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the welcome
So even doseing .3ml liquid carbon would a no in a Walstad tank?
And the artical about using the Seachem Flourite would not work in walstad tank, only soil?
Ive been as skittish about attempting soil in a tank as i have been upgrading to presdurized co2. Ive never done eather just researched and read the countless horror stories and complacations that come with both options. 

I will try the pot phang mutated crypt its the slowest growing of the crypts i have.









Fluval Spec 3 light vs Finnex StingRAY LED Clip, PAR...


I'm doing a low tech shrimp tank setup. Basically, my confusion comes as, what PAR level should I do for no CO2 setup. I bought a Finnex StingRAY LED Clip thinking to be an upgrade to the stock LED comes with Fluval Spec 3. But to my surprise the Finnex light is way dimmer. So I tested both...




www.plantedtank.net




Heres the link for the PAR reading on the lights. If that reading accurate then i should be having no issues in reguards to lighting. Which is why the differences on both sides of that tank were so confusing. 
The right side of the tank faces the window by thats on the other side of the room. I could measure the exact distance but i dont think its enough to so drastically effect the plant growth.
Thanks for all the suggestions


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Flourite works well as a cap over the soil substrate--one of my tanks is set up that way.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> The tank is fully cycled only took about 3 weeks for a fishless cycle when i set it up.
> 
> Im doing 30%-50% water changes because in my research and experence in the hobby thats just what you do. Espically when your doseing ferts in the EI method. It what i had read and what i had been told by other experienced hobbyist.
> 
> ...


 Are you actually tracking your water's nitrogen parameters (i.e., testing it?)


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Home | Aquarium Hobbyist Magazine






www.aquariumhobbyistmagazine.com




Heres the link to the magazine that had the Wastald setup that caught my attention ans used the seachem flourite instead of soil.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Are you actually tracking your water's nitrogen parameters (i.e., testing it?)


Yes of course. The great importance of water testing was drilled into my head before i even touched planted tanks.
I have a calibrated API masterkit along with gh/kh i test weekly and keep track.
My ammqonia and nitrite are always 0ppm and my nitrate is usually ranges from 15-25 on sundays.
If it tests out close to or over 20 
i do the water change.
I can get the rest of my water paramaters if needed.
I am probably still on a bit of a learning curve, all my initial knoelwdge on water paramaters was for plantless tanks and that nitrate 20ppm or over warrented water changes.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes of course. The great importance of water testing was drilled into my head before i even touched planted tanks.
> I have a calibrated API masterkit along with gh/kh i test weekly and keep track.
> My ammqonia and nitrite are always 0ppm and my nitrate is usually ranges from 15-25 on sundays.
> If it tests out close to or over 20
> ...


Thanks. That was helpful. You're in the same position I was about eight months ago - and still am, to a certain extent. I, too decided to start a Walstad tank, or at least adopt/adapt some of its techniques to a tank that had already been set up to hold a minimal number of fish and plants. I didn't even have a decent light fixture until last May!

But, like your betta tank, my somewhat larger bowl always had decent parameters: 0 ppm for ammonia and nitrites and seldom more than 20 ppm or nitrates. The nitrate level is pesky even though it is the _least_ toxic of the three nitrogen bi-products we normally test for (I sometimes wish API had a way of differentiating between harmful _ammonia_ and less harmful _ammonium - _but, that's another story!)

In an ideal world we would all have ways to magically move our fish to another tank while we make the transition to full blown Walstad because the key, of course, is that you should have so many rapidly growing plants with enough rapidly growing roots that they

1) become the dominant source of ammonia/ammonium predation,

and,

2) are able to aerate the highly organic soil enough to prevent it from becoming anaerobic.

But, it doesn't always work out that way. Your plants need a certain amount of nutrients in order to stay healthy and, if they are constantly competing with beneficial bacteria (which gained control back when we cycled our tanks) for ammonia - which is their preferred food source - then, you have to allow them a decent supply of nitrates to tide them over.

I've done pretty well with 20% water changes every two weeks and a fairly constant level of 20ppm for nitrates.

And, though you haven't mentioned it, I'd also advise against vacuuming the gravel. With one fish - and even with overfeeding - you're not in any great danger of poisoning your livestock.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

That article has several misconceptions. First, if the bowl doesn't have soil under the Flourite, it isn't the Walstad method. Soil is an integral component. Second, the reason the water parameters are so good is because there are plenty of healthy, growing plants. Yes, beneficial bacteria have colonized the Flourite, but it is the plants that are doing the work. Third, in the Walstad method we feed generously. Fish food supplies the necessary nutrients for plant growth.

The author says she "devoured" _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ but apparently she did not digest it.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Michael said:


> That article has several misconceptions. First, if the bowl doesn't have soil under the Flourite, it isn't the Walstad method. Soil is an integral component. Second, the reason the water parameters are so good is because there are plenty of healthy, growing plants. Yes, beneficial bacteria have colonized the Flourite, but it is the plants that are doing the work. Third, in the Walstad method we feed generously. Fish food supplies the necessary nutrients for plant growth.
> 
> The author says she "devoured" _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ but apparently she did not digest it.


Good to know.
Im am intreasted in trying soil it seems to be more along thr lines of what i wanted in a tank. I just still cant wrap my head around the no co2 as ive always been told the inhabitants of a tank will never produce enough co2 for healthy plant growth.
I need to go pick the book so i can read this all for my self.

Im just very cocerned about attempting it with my betta. Im assuming i would have to empty the tank remove everything temporarly. Have a sutiable potting soil picked out and do the initial tests of how the soil could change the water chemestry to hopefully avoid some of the horror stories ive read about when people switch to soil.
I have to take a hard look at my current plants and hardscape because its my understanding that once planted ypu do not touch/move/distrube the substrate.
How would this work with crypts if i wanted to remove a baby plant etc?
Would my tank go through another cycle? I wouldnt touch the filter and i removed Purigen i was told it would act simular to the biological lay media thats in my Eheim canister filter. I should just stuck some of those in a mesh bag to fit on the empty filter slot as had been my origional plan.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Thanks. That was helpful. You're in the same position I was about eight months ago - and still am, to a certain extent. I, too decided to start a Walstad tank, or at least adopt/adapt some of its techniques to a tank that had already been set up to hold a minimal number of fish and plants. I didn't even have a decent light fixture until last May!
> 
> But, like your betta tank, my somewhat larger bowl always had decent parameters: 0 ppm for ammonia and nitrites and seldom more than 20 ppm or nitrates. The nitrate level is pesky even though it is the _least_ toxic of the three nitrogen bi-products we normally test for (I sometimes wish API had a way of differentiating between harmful _ammonia_ and less harmful _ammonium - _but, that's another story!)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. Good to know someone else has had a simular situtation to mine. When i brought my delima up to people about which directiom to take my tank ive basically been told "you should have thought of this before you set it up" or "well it too late now" as though they were never decided to make changes to a tank.

I have a lot research and prep before i make a final move. Housing my betta and snails while i get things situtated will be a hurdle.
Would the dwarf hair grass Belem DHG Eleocarius mini work? I know hairhrass is popular and this tank needs some sort of continunity to it. 
Ill have to really revise my plant list. Right now i was just trying a bunch of things and the java fern, pond weed, greeb gecko and one of the repens were all extras that came with my plant orders.

As far a vaccuming gravel goes i dont.
I have the tubing from the smallest siphon from my LFS and i use a turkey baster to somewhat disturb the plant matter that sits on top of the substrate.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The ultimate decision is u to you. From everything I've seen, your betta appears happy and you have the potential for more plant growth with just what you have. Putting your plants into pots is one suggestion. The slowly decomposing organic matter in ordinary potting soil produces enough CO2 to obviate the need for artificial sources for about four to five months. Another CO2 "hack" is to invest in a few plants that grow long, floating "pads". They derive their CO2 directly from the air. A banana plant or two would top my list for that vacant left corner.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i think i have a bit of plan forming.
I have another small table in my room that I could fit a small tank on or im hopeing a punch bowl. Ill attempt the Walstad method from the very start in what i will call my experiment bowl and get my hands on the book so i can have a better understanding of how to procede.
If all goes well i can move my betta and snails from the spec and begin the transirion in that tank as well.
The only issue i see currently is that the location does not receive much natural light. Light from my windows is mostly blocked by a tall dresser.
I was looking at Chihros lights but will have to revulate that once i have the punch bowl picked out.
I have some questions in reguards to soil and compost but imm head over to the soil thread about those.
If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions on this new plan of action or plants that would be good to try ied appreciate it.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I grew a red tiger lotus (not an easy plant for beginners) from a sprout until it had two lily pads with just this:
Top Fin® Flexible Nano Aquarium LED Light | fish Lights | PetSmart


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I grew a red tiger lotus (not an easy plant for beginners) from a sprout until it had two lily pads with just this:
> Top Fin® Flexible Nano Aquarium LED Light | fish Lights | PetSmart


Wow color me impressed Tiger Lotus is tricky and i would not have thought a light like that could pull it off. Ive wanted to try a dwarf varity, maybe i can make it a centet piece for the experimenr tank.
Ill check out that light the price tag is cerntly a mark in its consideration.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Just order Diana's book from her website, so on the right track. Gonna keep my eyes out for another 3 gallon tank or bowl of some sort. I need the book figure out if im going to filter this tank/bowl.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Just order Diana's book from her website, so on the right track. Gonna keep my eyes out for another 3 gallon tank or bowl of some sort. I need the book figure out if im going to filter this tank/bowl.


Good move. And, just to tide you over until it arrives, the articles on DW's website are free and full of lots of information, Scroll down until you get to the list (the first three, colored in green are especially pertinent
Planted Aquariums – Diana Walstad's Books and Articles

HTH


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Good move. And, just to tide you over until it arrives, the articles on DW's website are free and full of lots of information, Scroll down until you get to the list (the first three, colored in green are especially pertinent
> Planted Aquariums – Diana Walstad's Books and Articles
> 
> HTH


Thanks ive already started reading through the first link. Also got a bucket of compost soaking so step one is underway. Now i just have to hope tjmaxx or home goods has a decent bunch bowl lol.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

PlentyCoup said:


> Now i just have to hope tjmaxx or home goods has a decent bunch bowl lol.


Try some thrift stores or garage sales, that's where most of my glass bowls and vases came from.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Michael said:


> Try some thrift stores or garage sales, that's where most of my glass bowls and vases came from.


Ive checking both those out as well, along with estate sales but you know how it goes, as soon as i went out to find one their were none to be found 😬. So thats why ive expanded my search to some stores as well.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Arts & Craft stores like Michael's has glass bowls & vases.


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## LifesABichir (Feb 13, 2020)

johnwesley0 said:


> I grew a red tiger lotus (not an easy plant for beginners) from a sprout until it had two lily pads with just this:
> Top Fin® Flexible Nano Aquarium LED Light | fish Lights | PetSmart


Actually they're one of the easiest plants! All my tanks have them because they do so good. Started with one when I didn't even know how to grow plants and now I have 15 from the mother plant.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

LifesABichir said:


> Actually they're one of the easiest plants! All my tanks have them because they do so good. Started with one when I didn't even know how to grow plants and now I have 15 from the mother plant.


How do you grow new plants from the mother plant?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i almost have the soil ready for the tank im going to pick up one of the bowls from micheals the largest size.
I was looking for a light as well had the one from petsmart thag someone already reced but was also considering one of these 








HIRO Aquatics NANO Full Spectrum LED Aquarium Light, Fish Tank light, LED Grow Light,


This lamp can be used as a nano quarium light, potted plant grow light, succulent grow light, Wabi Kusa light, a miniature lighta, a bonsai light and even a desk light. Four watts available and Full spectrum to promote plants' growth.




www.hiroaquatics.com




Now im not sure which wattage to use im too used to figuring all lighting in PAR now.
This is the dimensions of the bowl according to their website 12" (30.48 cm) bowl is 12" diameter x 9.5" tall (30.48cm x 24.13cm), with 9.125" (23.17cm) diameter opening so im not sure how many actual gallond it is.
If someone can give me some suggestions that would be great.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So i almost have the soil ready for the tank im going to pick up one of the bowls from micheals the largest size.
> I was looking for a light as well had the one from petsmart thag someone already reced but was also considering one of these
> 
> 
> ...


It depends on the size and shape of the bowl. At 9.5" inches high, the bowl's water surface would be a full 10 inches away from the light's beam, maybe more (if, you don't fill the bowl all the way up!) And, 450 lumens is not all that bright to begin with. A clip on light can get much closer and the light would be more concentrated..


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> It depends on the size and shape of the bowl. At 9.5" inches high, the bowl's water surface would be a full 10 inches away from the light's beam, maybe more (if, you don't fill the bowl all the way up!) And, 450 lumens is not all that bright to begin with. A clip on light can get much closer and the light would be more concentrated..


Good to know thats what i kind of figured, im used to figuring things out in PAR. I already started looking at clip on light instead. I still have the that topfin light saved as a possibility, maybe ill just go with that. Im just always cocerned about longjevity when it comes to lights and topfin has always been in my experience a iffy beand quality wise.
Thanks


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Good to know thats what i kind of figured, im used to figuring things out in PAR. I already started looking at clip on light instead. I still have the that topfin light saved as a possibility, maybe ill just go with that. Im just always cocerned about longjevity when it comes to lights and topfin has always been in my experience a iffy beand quality wise.
> Thanks


Yes, no one seems to swear by that brand. But, this is just an experimental bowl, right? Are fish going to go in there?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yes, no one seems to swear by that brand. But, this is just an experimental bowl, right? Are fish going to go in there?


Uhhhhh yes i will most likely end up sticking a betta in this bowl or perhaps shrimp eventually. It is a expermential bowl but the intent is for it to be successful so i can temporally move my betta from my spec III into it while i convert the spec to soil as well then move my betta back to the spec. 
So yes it will have fish lol
Ill keep looking im sure i can find something decent thats not $80 lol. Ied be fine with spending $30 or so ive just never had never had good experience with top fin😑


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I just started looking again at clip on light prices....... most of are $80 😅😅😩


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Yeah, I'm thinking for that amount of money you buy a whole new nano tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yeah, I'm thinking for that amount of money you buy a whole new nano tank.


Yah thats what my thoughts are....... even though i was really hopeing to avoid spending that kind of money... 😩
In Diana's book their was that section on lighting that talked about bow plants use tge green/yellow light more so that could give me the option for a desk lamp and regular cool white led bulb. Even with that though ied probably be looking at $40-50 before i even througb in a heater.
Or i can go all in one again and pick up a whole new nano tank.......
Soooo...... anyone selling a old nano tank...😅😅 or have a suggestion thats slightly more affordable


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's possible we're both overthinking this. By "experimental", you mean you won't be using this setup on a permanent basis. You want a place where you can deal with a big nutrient dump while you kick-start some rapid growth among your rooted plants. It could take a few days or it could take a few weeks for all of that nitrogen to reach a level safe enough for aquatic animals. Then, you want to move your betta to that setup while you repeat the process in its vacated nano tank. Am I reading you correctly? 

In a sense, every tank is an experiment; something's going to be different no matter how many previous tanks you may have set up. I would be asking myself whether it's really necessary to go through this process twice in two separate tanks?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> It's possible we're both overthinking this. By "experimental", you mean you won't be using this setup on a permanent basis. You want a place where you can deal with a big nutrient dump while you kick-start some rapid growth among your rooted plants. It could take a few days or it could take a few weeks for all of that nitrogen to reach a level safe enough for aquatic animals. Then, you want to move your betta to that setup while you repeat the process in its vacated nano tank. Am I reading you correctly?
> 
> In a sense, every tank is an experiment; something's going to be different no matter how many previous tanks you may have set up. I would be asking myself whether it's really necessary to go through this process twice in two separate tanks?


Yah thats exactly what i had planned to do. I wouldnt be surprised if i was overthinking this im notirious for overthinking combined with massive amounts of research.

I just had no clue what to do with my resident betta while i try to shift the Spec over to soil. I cerently dont want anything to go wrong that i kill him. I mean the tank is about 4 monthe old and is cycled...... 

So thats why i started the idea of another tank that would be soil from the very start and then move him to that tank and repeat process on spec... and its just clearly snowballed....😑
So i either figure out how i can saftly transition my spec with betta to soil tank and then tackle an additional tank at a later date or figure out a cheap option for a whole new tank right now....


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yah thats exactly what i had planned to do. I wouldnt be surprised if i was overthinking this im notirious for overthinking combined with massive amounts of research.
> 
> I just had no clue what to do with my resident betta while i try to shift the Spec over to soil. I cerently dont want anything to go wrong that i kill him. I mean the tank is about 4 monthe old and is cycled......
> 
> ...


Or, just temporarily transfer your betta to a low tech bowl without soil or plants while you get the spec up to speed.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Or, just temporarily transfer your betta to a low tech bowl without soil or plants while you get the spec up to speed.


Ive never done this before. Would i just take water from his current tank and put it in a small bowl? How long can i saftly keep him that way. I mean i know they hang out in bowls like that all the time in the petstores.
But it would give me more time to think about another tank and possibly wait for black friday deals lol 🙃


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Ive never done this before. Would i just take water from his current tank and put it in a small bowl? How long can i saftly keep him that way. I mean i know they hang out in bowls like that all the time in the petstores.
> But it would give me more time to think about another tank and possibly wait for black friday deals lol 🙃


Well, you already have a 9" in. high bowl now, right? I would use that. 
*Full Disclosure*: I've never kept bettas. But, from everything I've read oxygen would not be a problem since they get their air directly from the surface. Your main worry would be keeping the water free of ammonia. Definitely use water from the spec since it's already been cycled. Heck, if you have access to STS, lay a thin layer of that on the bottom in order for beneficial bacteria to propagate. And a few sticks of lucky bamboo. It's hard to imagine the water changes would be much more frequent than what you're doing right now which is 50% water changes a week.


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## Steven F (Aug 1, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I wanted this tank to be middle ground. Not low tech but not high tech but clearly something is off.





PlentyCoup said:


> Now im wondering if i should swap substrate but i had been told that the substrates with additives for plants were useless because once the nutrients, that i was told only last about 6 months,


People add soil to the tank simply to add nutrients the plants need. However you are adding fertilizer. The fertilizer should take care of nutrients unless there is a problem We all would like to assume that all fertilizers on the market will provide all the nutrients plants need. Unfortunately the reality is the most don't

For EI dosing Everyone doses NPK for macros Unfortunately NPK are not the only macros. The full list of macros is N, K, Ca, MG, P, S, Most people don't worry about calcium and magneisum and sulfur simply because most of the time tap water it. But that isn't always the case. And if you are using RO water your tank would definitely be deficient in these. 

You should monitor your GH level with a GH test kit. The GH test detects only calcium and magnesium. So it could tell you if you have ea lot or very little. But note it doesn't tell you if your water has only calcium or only magnesium. If possible look up your water utility water quality report. It might list the typical values for Ca and Mg in your water.Or you could get a GH booster from the store and boost your GH to see if it helps. Seachem Equilibrium has Ca, Mg, and S and would satisfy that need. Or you can make your own.

For the EI micros most people use CSM+B. Everyone assumes it takes care of all of the macro needs but again it has some of problems:

 The big issue is that the iron nutrient in it is Iron EDTA. Iron EDTA is only stable at a PH of 6.5 or less. Ifyour PH is above that level the iron will convert to iron oxide which is unusable by plants. 
It doesn't contain enough zinc to satisfy the needs of the plants.
And you are using RO water it doesn't have chlorine. Yes Chlorine is a nutrient but plants can't use it in it's toxic and corrosive gas form. Plants typically get it from safe chloride salts such as calcium chloride, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, or magnesium chloride. Tap water is typically sterilized with chlorine. And even after using a water conditioner the chlorine is still pressent in the form of chloride salts the plants can use. 
For most successful EI tanks enough CO2 is added to keep the PH in the low 6 to 6.5 range. which does help prevent iron loss. But the easier solution is to use a form of iron that is stable at your water PH. One of the best iron nutrients for aquariums is Iron DTPA. It is stable at a ph of 7.5 or less but may be usable up to about 8. Iron gluconate is easy to find (Seachem iron uses it) and PH has no effect on it. but it is best used in frequent small doses because bacteria will consume the gluconate and destroy it. The last choice is iron EDHHA with is stable at a PH of about 10 or less. However this for of iron does color the water red. so it is best used in small amounts when the color might not be noticeable. At a dose of 0.03ppm the color might not be noticalble. 

GLA now sells a upgraded CSM+B iron mix that now does incorporate iron DTPA and additional zinc.IF you are using tapster you shouldn't have to worry about Chlorine as long as you do weekly water changes. 

As to liquid carbon I never saw anything indicating it helped my plants and in fact it is toxic to some. If you have a paint ball tank You could use the inverted bottle methode to get CO2 into your water. This video shows it. It is much more efficient at getting CO2 into the water and you cannot put too much into your tank which can kill fish. Note drop checkers don't work at the low CO2 level this methode provides in the tank. But dispite that my plant still do pearl slowly.

Also note I only dose macros and micros once a week right after a 50% water change in my 5 gallon srimp tank. i think the the every other day recommendation for micro dosing was done due torn losses and the low level is zinc in regular EI micro mixes. Also I don't use bright light.

If any of the issues I have mentioned apply to your tank mixing them should help your plants without the need of adding soil to your tank.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

PlentyCoup said:


> I just started looking again at clip on light prices....... most of are $80 😅😅😩


Not sure exactly what your experimental setup looks like...did you settle on a bowl/tank to use?

But for my new bowl experiment I bought a $10 lamp from Target and just put a bog standard LED bulb (same ones I use for all my house lights) in it and...well everything seems to be growing fine lol. Eventually I want to swap it out for a cooler color bulb because I believe that range of light is better for the plants. But I've not been too motivated to do so since everything is working out fine for now. So especially for a smaller setup I think you can get away with a lot less than $80 for lighting.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Steven F said:


> People add soil to the tank simply to add nutrients the plants need. However you are adding fertilizer. The fertilizer should take care of nutrients unless there is a problem We all would like to assume that all fertilizers on the market will provide all the nutrients plants need. Unfortunately the reality is the most don't
> 
> For EI dosing Everyone doses NPK for macros Unfortunately NPK are not the only macros. The full list of macros is N, K, Ca, MG, P, S, Most people don't worry about calcium and magneisum and sulfur simply because most of the time tap water it. But that isn't always the case. And if you are using RO water your tank would definitely be deficient in these.
> 
> ...


Intreasting info but i think your missing the point a bit on why i or other people go to dirtied tanks. I started exploring this method because i didnt want to drop a couple hundred on a co2 setup. People add dirt to tanks in order to create and explore a more natural ecosystem within their tanks, which is what i want. Dianas book is a absolute monster to get through but is very imformative for anyone who actually wants to learn the why and how behind the functions and ecology of a at home aquarium. I dont want to have to micro manage my aquariums because i essentially cut out the the natural functions in favor of added mechanics. Its not to say that i at some point wont try a full co2 setup with the ferts etc, but right now i dont have the space or ability to affored all those addatives.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Not sure exactly what your experimental setup looks like...did you settle on a bowl/tank to use?
> 
> But for my new bowl experiment I bought a $10 lamp from Target and just put a bog standard LED bulb (same ones I use for all my house lights) in it and...well everything seems to be growing fine lol. Eventually I want to swap it out for a cooler color bulb because I believe that range of light is better for the plants. But I've not been too motivated to do so since everything is working out fine for now. So especially for a smaller setup I think you can get away with a lot less than $80 for lighting.


What wattage do you use? I know Dianna talked about cool white LED bulbs working well, i just always look immediatly look at actual aquarium lights. I have not picked up a bowl yet from Micheals they were out of the largest size last i was their, so as it stands right now i still need both a boel/aquarium 3 or 5 gals and a light. Ive been caught ip in other outdoor projects that are on a weather time crunch so i havent gone much further besides tajing notes from Dianas book. I still almost feel that I should set up this prastice tank first before i upend my bettas home. But of course anything i do that is successful in the test tank probably wont be exactly repliacted in the spec tank.
Thanks for the vote for a regular old lamp lol those i know i can find on the cheap.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

PlentyCoup said:


> What wattage do you use? I know Dianna talked about cool white LED bulbs working well, i just always look immediatly look at actual aquarium lights.


6.5W looks like. I didn't check before using it though.








Plants are growing fine, especially the floaters. But I'd like to get a cooler bulb at some point just to improve the aesthetic...everything looks a bit yellow with this bulb.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> everything looks a bit yellow with this bulb.


See, I always thought yellow=warm=fuller color spectrum. But, I have no science to back that up. And, you're right, it's really easy to swap out bulbs, if you don't think a particular one is doing the trick, especially for a 3-5 gallon bowl.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

johnwesley0 said:


> See, I always thought yellow=warm=fuller color spectrum. But, I have no science to back that up. And, you're right, it's really easy to swap out bulbs, if you don't think a particular one is doing the trick, especially for a 3-5 gallon bowl.


I think scientifically, full-spectrum light is white...all the colors mixed together makes white...or so I recall from my 8th grade science class. I know our sun is actually more on the yellow side, hence why indoor lighting tends to be warmer - because humans are more comfortable with light that matches our sun.

I can never remember what spectrum plants like. I think they ideally want more red+blue light maybe? But also, most of the plants we grow in NPTs are adapted to low-light scenarios and aren't super picky about what they'll take.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> I think scientifically, full-spectrum light is white...all the colors mixed together makes white...or so I recall from my 8th grade science class. I know our sun is actually more on the yellow side, hence why indoor lighting tends to be warmer - because humans are more comfortable with light that matches our sun.
> 
> I can never remember what spectrum plants like. I think they ideally want more red+blue light maybe? But also, most of the plants we grow in NPTs are adapted to low-light scenarios and aren't super picky about what they'll take.


Thanks for the info ans the photo ill look into doing that for a second tank. Today its raining buckets so im taking the plunge to swap the Spec over to soil. Hopefully Captian wont mind hanging out in a small bowl for a couple of weeks and hopefully nothing blows up in my face during my swap. Ill post pics on here i think.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Got everything swapped over late last night. Should have taken photos of the plants that i pulled out but totally forgot. The crypts had some great roots on them some were almost 5 in long. 
Mixed the mineralized compost 50/50 with play sand. I wasnt sure how to go about capping the soil. Do i put in plants then cap or cap then add plants. 
So tried a bit of both not too sure which worked better. Kind of varied depending on the pant i was working with. The crypts with the super long roots worked better planted uncapped while the sty. repens worked fine with the gravel cap.
I used the Rio Grande caribsea which says its gravel size is 0.3-0.5 mm.
The soil is between 1/2 and 3/4 deep and the gravel cap brings it up to substrate depth of 1 in. I dont know uf i need more gravel, i know most people have about 1in of cap but that seemed a bit excessive to me in such a small tank. If anyone has in thoughts that'ed be great.

I dint currently have any decent rocks in the hardscape. I want to go look for something thats tall and narrow. All the rocks i had were taking up toi much substrate space.
So got everything scaped added water and promptly decided i didn't like the big w. bronze crypty in the corner and that it needed to be swapped with nurii phang mutated that was under the driftwood. So that was a absolute mess to try and move around.
Any tips on how to move plants around would be appreciated.
Very cloudy last night ill take a new pic once the light kicks on this am with a current plant list.
Oh and Captian Pan is very unhappily swimming around a large vase temporally.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Get ready for more substrate disturbance because rocks and other ornaments should be touching the bottom glass in order to prevent anaerobic conditions from happening.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Get ready for more substrate disturbance because rocks and other ornaments should be touching the bottom glass in order to prevent anaerobic conditions from happening.


Ugh ill have to check to make sure that the drift wood is touching the bottom i cant remember if i made sure it was. Thanks for heads up. I have no clue how people keep the soil and gravel from mixing and keeping everythimg clean looking.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Heres the tank this am. Made sure the drift wood was touching the bottom.
Current plant list

crypt w. Bronze, Green Gecko, Nurii Phang mutated
buce Sylvia, Kaang and i other
Sty. Repens
Star grass
rotala H'ra doing very poorly
micro sword
one stem of a differeny repens i belive anda small piece of trip. japan amd pearl weed.
I think i need a tall plant of some sort in the back..... not sure used to have ludwigia lacustris it and rotala h'ra had done well for me in the past.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I have no clue how people keep the soil and gravel from mixing and keeping everything clean looking.


Believe me, they don't. Just have faith that most soil is heavier than water and will settle down eventually. Your tank already looks quite attractive btw. Looking forward to seeing some plant growth.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

How about a Red Ozelot Swordplant? It is a good grower and magnificent plant.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> How about a Red Ozelot Swordplant? It is a good grower and magnificent plant.


That would be nice and would add a pop of color from the greens and crypts.
Would it size ok to the Spec III?
My LFS has some nice swords i think they might have had that one but im not sure. I know they had some very nice kleiner prinz swords 1 corkscrew sword, and i cant remember what else. Ill have to go look tomorrow.
Thanks for the suggestion


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Checked water last night. Ammonia was between 0.25-0.50.
Nitrites and nitrates were nonexistant as expected.
So looks like ill be going through a tank cycle. It will intreasting to see how quickly it progresses considering the filtee is established and the gravel is from the pre soil setup.
Did a 50% water change and the sol is clraring up. Not long considering ill be going to my LFS for a sword plant on monday. 
Ill check the water again this evening and probably do another water change.
If im able to pick up a sword ill put it in the back left corner and move the crypt thats curently their foreward.
Also wonderinv if i need to find a more unique piece of driftwood. Dont know if this the case for other people but i had a hell of a time finding a small enough piece that was still servisable.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> View attachment 73969
> 
> Checked water last night. Ammonia was between 0.25-0.50.
> Nitrites and nitrates were nonexistant as expected.
> ...


I apologize, if I sound like a broken record, but I'm still not sure why you are doing so much water changing. There are no fish to worry about. The water looks pretty clear. You actually aren't trying to cycle the tank in the conventional sense: What you really want is for the plants to get a head-start on the beneficial bacteria so that they out compete it for the available ammonia/ammonium. If successful, you won't have much in the way of nitrates.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I apologize, if I sound like a broken record, but I'm still not sure why you are doing so much water changing. There are no fish to worry about. The water looks pretty clear. You actually aren't trying to cycle the tank in the conventional sense: What you really want is for the plants to get a head-start on the beneficial bacteria so that they out compete it for the available ammonia/ammonium. If successful, you won't have much in the way of nitrates.


Yah i guess that makes sense, and by removing the ammonia i basically messing up the restart of the nitrogen cycle. I know the soil continues to breakdown and release massive amounts of nutrients espically since i didnt keep it pre submerged for a full six weeks before adding to the tank. Ammonia=nitrite=nitrate. And no everyone in the tank is currently chilling elsewhere. Water changes are like a ingrained thing for me, ive spent so many years with plantless tanks and a different maintaince regime, so no water changes is like some mythical unreal creature.

Anyway ill keep testing the water and the water change greatly helped with the clarity
It was still very, very murky last night.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So about a week into the soil tank...... things are going so/so...... I have new growth on all the plants even the rotala h'ra that i was convienced would long be i the garbage bin by now is tryimg to rally sending out new roots all over the stems.

I also have algea trying to move in not sure which types ill try and incude some pics. All the water peraminters have strightned out but the water remains very brownish, almost like tge tanins released from a new piece of drift wood. 
Ive added a new sword Kleiner Prinz. It was all my LFS had to choose from beside regulqr swords and oriental swords. Also picked up one stem of water weisteria to try and help combat algea.
















So i feel like i need more plants but alsl that if i add anymore the tank will be a cluttered mess. Ive cut done on the time the light is on from 10 hours to 8 to help. I have a 3 hour break from the light between the two periods. 
Ive done one additional small water change to try and help clear up the water.
So im not sure what to do, i feel as though im at the breaking point either the plants will take off or the algea will suffiocate everything.








Star grass has new growth but also perhaps a dark algea on the leaves.








Same with the sty. Repeans.








Full tank.








Bad pic of new sword and green gecko crypt.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I wondering if i need to reorder some new healthy versions of some of the plants. Reorder new rotala h'ra, try ludwigia lacustris again, order new sty. repens perhaps a new stem of star grass and maybe try dwarf hairgrass in place of the dwarf chain sword.......
Just another option ive been tossing around that new healthy plants will tip the scales in my favor. The crypts are all doing really well.
I have to test the ph and hardness to see where im at. I will keep a eye on water changes like Diana suggested for algea in the book. I dont have water lettice but i do have some water hyceinthea (sp) i could toss in. The floating tiger is also attempting to recover.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> All the water peraminters have strightned out


Full stop. This is huge (!) Take some time to give yourself a pat on the back. This means the plants are probably outcompeting the beneficial bacteria for the available ammonia. Not every dirted tank gets this right on the first try.

The tannic haze may be something you will just have to live with until things really stabilize. It's coming from the soil and it's harmless. Some people say STS is able to absorb tannins, but I haven't tested that theory.

If you still have algae problems after cutting your lighting hours down to 8, I would certainly think about bladder snails especially since you have a betta who might provide some predator control over their population.

I'd be interested in what DW has to say in view of her recent advice to another poster regarding lighting and plants getting a fast start in a shrimp bowl.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Full stop. This is huge (!) Take some time to give yourself a pat on the back. This means the plants are probably outcompeting the beneficial bacteria for the available ammonia. Not every dirted tank gets this right on the first try.
> 
> The tannic haze may be something you will just have to live with until things really stabilize. It's coming from the soil and it's harmless. Some people say STS is able to absorb tannins, but I haven't tested that theory.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the encourgement ivs been pouring over Dianas book trying to understand whats going on. Yes tank paramaters have been spot on nill on ammonium and nitrite and nitrte is hovering around 10 ppm. 
Captian is still in his tempoary bowl and the nerite and mystrey snail are still in my 36 bow.
I figured the water discoloration was due to the soil. Ive not done any major water changes aside from taking out a half gallon or so when trying to clean up plang derbis.
Its nice to hear that im on the right track for the most part!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So been meaning to reread DW online post on the shrimp tanks but life has been one interuption after another and the tank has been getting away from me. I need to make some adjustments. The algea is not really improving. I think i need to go in and wipe down the walls and do another small water change to clean things up a bit.
I added in a small water hyacinth to try and help combat the extra nutrients until the plants start showing more solid growth.








This is some the algea im dealing with i think its green green string/hair algae. Very hard to get a pic of but i tried.
Ive also been going in and rubbing the algae off the leaves of the plant and off tge roots and leaves of the floating tiger.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

In rereading some of your posts, I'm theorizing that between the algae and the beneficial bacteria which marked your tank's "cycling" your plants are not getting enough ammonia/ammonium and having to rely on the nitrates in your tank as a secondary food source. Aquatic plants favor the uptake of ammonia but will settle for nitrates, if not enough of the former is available. But, it comes at a cost in the plant's uptake efficiency, resulting in slower growth.
Counterintuitively, the solution may be to add more plants and to consider putting Captain back in the tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> In rereading some of your posts, I'm theorizing that between the algae and the beneficial bacteria which marked your tank's "cycling" your plants are not getting enough ammonia/ammonium and having to rely on the nitrates in your tank as a secondary food source. Aquatic plants favor the uptake of ammonia but will settle for nitrates, if not enough of the former is available. But, it comes at a cost in the plant's uptake efficiency, resulting in slower growth.
> Counterintuitively, the solution may be to add more plants and to consider putting Captain back in the tank.


Ill get captian back in the tank after i claen the walls and take the turkey baster to the excess plant matter floating around. All the tank levels have been stable so i had planned to move him and the snails back in on monday. I figured it was something along those lines of me still being in a inbetween stage. If i understood the section about soil correctly then the compost i used is still in the process of breaking down/mineralizing, refering to the section about the vals and plant growth in soil soaked for 6 weeks or less then 6 weeks.
Im not sure where i would be able to add more plants, but then maybe im thinking too much like a landscaper/desginer would, considering the mature size of the plant and allowing for that growth to prevent overcorwding which then leads to its own set of issues.

I just wanted to make sure i wasnt going to have any issues with the soil that impact Captians health.
Thanks for the continued advice.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Im not sure where i would be able to add more plants, but then maybe im thinking too much like a landscaper/desginer would, considering the mature size of the plant and allowing for that growth to prevent overcorwding which then leads to its own set of issues.


You're worried about having too many plants? I'm looking at your tank and scratching my head.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> You're worried about having too many plants? I'm looking at your tank and scratching my head.


Lol i just have issues placeing things, i feel like it looks cluttered and that the plants will not grow well as a result, which i know it counterintutive to actual aquatic ecosystems. Ill be adding more plants in the star grass just went to pot on me over night.








It was fine looking when i moved Captian back in on Sunday night and didnt really notice anything yesterday. Was looking the tank over this am and noticed all the leaves were basically grey.
Do i have anaerobic soil in that spot? Go in a poke the spot before adding new plants?
I think i add some new star grass, rotala h'ra, ludwigia lacustris and stypen repens.
The micro chain sword doesnt seem to ve doing so hot either.
Now im worried i moved Captain back to soon and this is all in the process of blowing up in my face. Things change so rapidly in tanks.
If anyone else has plant suggestions let me know. Ill add enoung to make it a cluttered, unslightly mess


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Lol i just have issues placeing things, i feel like it looks cluttered and that the plants will not grow well as a result, which i know it counterintutive to actual aquatic ecosystems. Ill be adding more plants in the star grass just went to pot on me over night.
> View attachment 74037
> 
> It was fine looking when i moved Captian back in on Sunday night and didnt really notice anything yesterday. Was looking the tank over this am and noticed all the leaves were basically grey.
> ...


You're fine. There's a good chance there are anaerobic spots.The rotten egg smelling gas will escape through the water surface However, most of the bubbles are probably just CO2 which is a good thing to have going on in your soil. .


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Could be that your water is too soft. What is the hardness of your water (i.e., GH)? 
You have plenty of plants. Now you just need to get them growing.


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## zahtar (Sep 29, 2019)

Hello, how is the tank doing? I didn't read thoroughly the entire thread, but from some parts I got the impression that the light intensity might be high. Tropica suggest up to 20lumen/litre for easy plants, 20-40lumen/lt for medium and >40 lum/lt for advanced plants. That might help you balance your tank better, as your nutrient supply (fish poo + plant melts) is constant, your CO2 supply (livestock respiration) is probably constant as well, so the last parameter (light) is the one that will make or break the balance between the three. That means that excessive light breaks the balance, insufficient light does so as well. If your tank volume is 10L If so, the net water volume could probably be around 7,5-8L. I saw a lamp in the discussion that was rated 450Lumen. So, that means 450/8=56,25lumen/L. In theory that could mean too much light.

Since you mentioned good growth for cryptocorynes, the substrate is healthy, since you mentioned good growth for floaters, nutrients from the water column are removed as well (are stem plants doing good?). The only thing I can think of is too much light. That was the case for my 60L cube (47L net volume) where I decreased the light intensity to 70% and haven't noticed algae on the glass for a few weeks now. 70% intensity for my lamp meant I am now at 20-25lumen/liter without artificial ferts and only sugar-yeast CO2.

If your light is dimmable, I think that you could readjust and see how it goes from there.

Good luck!

Reference:




__





The right light for your aquarium - Tropica Aquarium Plants


Choose the right light for your tank




tropica.com


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Hello all,
Kind of dropped off the face of the earth here. My 5 year old Scottish deerhound had to be rushed to the vet at the end of october. What followed were 4 months of vet appts almost three grand of vet bills and Ivor finally on the mend close Christmas. On the 23rd of December despite being on the mend he died in his sleep. The vet believes he had a blood clot break free and suffered a massive stroke.

So Christmas and the new year was aweful and both my tanks went largly neglected for 4 months. I did not feed Captian Pan as much as I should have been and it showed in the tank. All my floaters vanished and my stem plants took a major hit. I started trying to get things back on track mid Jan. My nitrates, amm, nitrites are all non existant which means i wasnt feeding enough to support the plants.

About a 2 weeks ago I started seeing improvement in the stem plants i had left so i thought everything was getying back on track. Then this past Sunday Captian Pan died. He was fine in the morning then around 11am he was swimming around spazzily, swimming on his side floating etc. He was dead about a hour later. My LFS thinks he injured himself somehow since the water parmaters were good and he was fine in the am and showed no signs of any health issues.

So my tank now has nothing in it expect my 2 snails and 5 now 3 cherry shrimp (2 died this morning) that a friend of mine who breeds them gave me. 
My LFS has no bettas i want right now so im waiting for their new shipment next Wed. Im not sure if I should try some real small fish that could later live with a betta? Ive continued to drop bits of fish food into the tank to keep the cycle going. So im open to suggestions, I want another betta but what should I do till I find one. 
Heres what it looks like right now. Im hopeing to find a new piece of driftwood.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Two suggestions:

1) Do not add anymore driftwood. 
2) Stop trying to "keep the cycle going". All you're doing is encouraging more bacterial growth. Your plants haven't budged in four months, in part, I suspect, because they are in constant competition with beneficial bacterial growth. But, did we ever get an answer to Diana's question about your water's hardness?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Two suggestions:
> 
> 1) Do not add anymore driftwood.
> 2) Stop trying to "keep the cycle going". All you're doing is encouraging more bacterial growth. Your plants haven't budged in four months, in part, I suspect, because they are in constant competition with beneficial bacterial growth. But, did we ever get an answer to Diana's question about your water's hardness?


No I have not checked my water hardness recently. Ill check it again and see where it stands. I had not been checking for any posts on here and just saw the question today about GH, KH. 

I feel like im starting from scrath as really let everything go these last months. Ill report on GH KH in a bit.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Could be that your water is too soft. What is the hardness of your water (i.e., GH)?
> You have plenty of plants. Now you just need to get them growing.


Ok tested twice using API GH KH test kit.
8 drops for GH -143.2 ppm acording to their chart and 6 drops for KH - 107.4 ppm acording to the chart. 
I had taking under a half galljn of water out just by cleaning the derbis snail poo sitting on the top of the substrate on monday.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

First of all, so sorry for your losses PlentyCoup. Sounds like a rough couple of months. I imagine it's difficult getting back into the swing of aquarium upkeep after all that. Sometimes it can be a nice escape though, our own little world apart from everything that we get to care for and enjoy.



johnwesley0 said:


> Two suggestions:
> 
> 1) Do not add anymore driftwood.
> 2) Stop trying to "keep the cycle going". All you're doing is encouraging more bacterial growth. Your plants haven't budged in four months, in part, I suspect, because they are in constant competition with beneficial bacterial growth. But, did we ever get an answer to Diana's question about your water's hardness?


I agree with the driftwood, but not so sure about stopping feeding. Obviously don't be dumping too much food in, but I think continuing some nutrient supplementation would be beneficial to the plants. Not sure how much the beneficial bacteria could be out-competing the plants - it seems like plants have a much higher capacity to absorb nitrogen so if anything it would be the other way around? But either way, if the bacteria _was _taking nutrients from the plants, I would think they would want to add more nutrients to the tank, not less. 

Looking at your plant selection, you have a lot of crypts which are slow growers. The big ones in the back have grown quite a bit in the last couple months! But maybe you need some more fast-growers to keep up. Perhaps some dwarf sag in the front of the tank?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Obviously don't be dumping too much food in, but I think continuing some nutrient supplementation would be beneficial to the plants. Not sure how much the beneficial bacteria could be out-competing the plants -


I don't disagree with you about the need to add nutrients after a certain period of time. Potting soil only lasts so long, especially after all of that mineralizing we put it through to begin with. And, I have no problem with dry food as a potential source of trace minerals like phosphorous and zinc. But, I keep thinking of the poor poster who a few months ago reported dropping a hunk of ham into her nano tank in order to coax some worms out of their hiding places in the substrate and wondering why her tank smelled bad and had a cloudy look.



> it seems like plants have a much higher capacity to absorb nitrogen so if anything it would be the other way around? But either way, if the bacteria _was _taking nutrients from the plants, I would think they would want to add more nutrients to the tank, not less.


That's not my understanding. Diana states pretty clearly that plants and nitrifying bacteria compete for nutrients and for ammonia/ammonium in particular (p.111, EPA.) Plants can use nitrates as a secondary source of protein, if no ammonia is left for them to absorb. But,it is a less efficient process for them than straight ammonia absorption because it involves converting the nitrates _back into _ammonia, thus losing as much as 50% of their photosynthesis efficiency. This, I believe, is her main rationale for including as many rapidly growing plants as possible as early as possible in a Walstad tank because once the beneficial bacteria get going, the more dependent the plants become on nitrates.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I don't disagree with you about the need to add nutrients after a certain period of time. Potting soil only lasts so long, especially after all of that mineralizing we put it through to begin with. And, I have no problem with dry food as a potential source of trace minerals like phosphorous and zinc. But, I keep thinking of the poor poster who a few months ago reported dropping a hunk of ham into her nano tank in order to coax some worms out of their hiding places in the substrate and wondered why her tank smelled bad and had a cloudy look.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not my understanding. Diana states pretty clearly that plants and nitrifying bacteria compete for nutrients and for ammonia/ammonium in particular (p.111, EPA.) Plants can use nitrates as a secondary source of protein, if no ammonia is left for them to absorb. But,it is a less efficient process for them than straight ammonia absorption because it involves converting the nitrates _back into _ammonia, thus losing as much as 50% of their photosynthesis efficiency. This, I believe, is her main rationale for including as many rapidly growing plants as possible as early as possible in a Wastad tank because once the beneficial bacteria get going, the more dependent the plants become on nitrates.


I used compost and sand in my final soil set up. I have only been putting about 6 or betta flakes in the tank about everyother day.... so just on monday and wednesday, since Capitan died thid past sunday. 

I am assuming im just better off keeping this a single betta tank and not trying to add anything else. The CS were just given to me on monday and doubt they will be around long if i get a new betta, and im unsure about stocking paramaters on a dirtied tank of this size. I pulled Dianas book back out to go through again and give myself a much needed refresher.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I used compost and sand in my final soil set up. I have only been putting about 6 or betta flakes in the tank about everyother day.... so just on monday and wednesday, since Capitan died thid past sunday.
> 
> I am assuming im just better off keeping this a single betta tank and not trying to add anything else. The CS were just given to me on monday and doubt they will be around long if i get a new betta, and im unsure about stocking paramaters on a dirtied tank of this size. I pulled Dianas book back out to go through again and give myself a much needed refresher.


I feel like I owe you an apology. I know what it's like to lose even a single fish before its time. Capitan sounds like he had a lot of personality.

In terms of your substrate, I'm no expert, but compost should be pretty nutritious for a while. More so than common potting soil, no? If your parameters are showing -0- nitrogen across the board, I would put the plants in first _then think_ about adding ferts or some other means of supplementing nutrients. But, another Capitan is the most obvious solution, IMO.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The CO2 generation from the soil probably died off. I don't think compost has too much carbon but plenty of nutrients.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> Ok tested twice using API GH KH test kit.
> 8 drops for GH -143.2 ppm according to their chart and 6 drops for KH - 107.4 ppm according to the chart.
> I had taking under a half gallon of water out just by cleaning the debris snail poo sitting on the top of the substrate on Monday.


The GH and KH sound good. 
I noticed that you've lost your Water Wisteria and floating plants. Your rooted plants haven't grown that much. You've got the soil and the water hardness, so it's something else. Maybe too much cleaning, water changes, filtration, and not enough fishfood addition. 
Do you have a photoperiod of at 11 hours?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> The GH and KH sound good.
> I noticed that you've lost your Water Wisteria and floating plants. Your rooted plants haven't grown that much. You've got the soil and the water hardness, so it's something else. Maybe too much cleaning, water changes, filtration, and not enough fishfood addition.
> Do you have a photoperiod of at 11 hours?


Its probably too much cleaning on my end. I dont do water changes expect for topping it off. When I do go in and clean it maybe removes under half a gallon. Im still trying to train myself out of cleaning this tank.
My lights are on 8:00-1:00 off 1:00-4:00 on again from 4:00-9:00. So im at 10 hours with a 3 hour rest. 
I know something is off. Do i need to supplemment with something?
My LFS had a sale on ember tetras so I picked up three. I assuming they will be okay with any betta i eventully get.
And that i can get this tank back on track.... or just on any track at all.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

You have a 13 hour photoperiod, which is very good. So it's not that.
Since you lost your floating plants, that suggests an iron deficiency in the water. 
Did you use compost? Real mineral soil contains plentiful iron, but pure organic material like peat does not. If so, it could be your tank is deficient in iron.
I would add a micronutrient fertilizer and/or chelated iron. Try again with floating plants. Your goal should be to have enough nutrients in the water to grow floating plants.
Your rooted plants may be getting just enough iron from the substrate mulm to keep going, but not enough to thrive.
Manganese is another micronutrient that oxidizes in the water, so if your substrate is gravel/compost, start out first with a micronutrient fertilizer. Then, you could go to a chelated iron powder, which is cheaper.
I think Ember tetras would be fine with a Betta.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> You have a 13 hour photoperiod, which is very good. So it's not that.
> Since you lost your floating plants, that suggests an iron deficiency in the water.
> Did you use compost? Real mineral soil contains plentiful iron, but pure organic material like peat does not. If so, it could be your tank is deficient in iron.
> I would add a micronutrient fertilizer and/or chelated iron. Try again with floating plants. Your goal should be to have enough nutrients in the water to grow floating plants.
> ...


Yes my final mix was compost and sand. But my compost was not store bought. Every other year we have 4 yards of compost delivered from our local WA that comes from the townships yard waste collection. I dont know if that makes a difference but that is the type of compost I used. 

How often would I dose the micro's? I was doseing macros and micros (CSM+B) prior to switching to soil. I was doseing 1/64 (drop) twice a week. The ferts I have are from NilcoG if that makes a difference and hvae their breakdown as well.

How many Ember Tetras could i safely have? I know they like to be in groups but have actually never owned tetras before.
Thanks for the help and suggestions.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

johnwesley0 said:


> That's not my understanding. Diana states pretty clearly that plants and nitrifying bacteria compete for nutrients and for ammonia/ammonium in particular (p.111, EPA.) Plants can use nitrates as a secondary source of protein, if no ammonia is left for them to absorb. But,it is a less efficient process for them than straight ammonia absorption because it involves converting the nitrates _back into _ammonia, thus losing as much as 50% of their photosynthesis efficiency. This, I believe, is her main rationale for including as many rapidly growing plants as possible as early as possible in a Walstad tank because once the beneficial bacteria get going, the more dependent the plants become on nitrates.


I thought the reason we include so many fast growers off the bat was because fresh soil is so hot, and releases a lot of nutrients into the water? As for bacteria, I'm just thinking of a traditional tank where to get any kind of biological filtration you need filters, lots of water flow, biomedia, etc. It seems like in a tank without that bacteria would do....something. But I suspect if you took all the plants out of an established tank (where the bacteria is established) it would still crash and grow a ton of algae due to too many nutrients.

In an established tank we end up with no ammonia and no nitrites, and usually a few nitrates. My understanding was that this is because the plants readily take up the ammonia but not so readily the nitrates, hence some leftover. I could certainly be wrong, but I've treated my NPTs as basically having negligible impact from bacteria. Maybe Diana can weigh in here?



PlentyCoup said:


> How many Ember Tetras could i safely have? I know they like to be in groups but have actually never owned tetras before.


Your tank is 2.5 gallons right? I think a group of schooling fish like tetras should probably be kept in at least a group of 5 or 6...which is probably a pretty high load for that tank. I would not add a beta on top of that. I had a beta in a 6.5 gallon with 7 rasbora espei (slightly larger than ember tetras, but still small) and they did not do too well together. They didn't fight or anything, but were stressed I think at being in a small space together. Next time I would keep the beta alone. As is, I'm planning on moving the rasboras to a 20g once it's set up.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> As for bacteria, I'm just thinking of a traditional tank where to get any kind of biological filtration you need filters, lots of water flow, biomedia, etc.


Virtually every post I've ever read on this forum, pertaining to a newly planted tank, eventually reports the presence of significant levels of nitrate, often after one day. This is true whether or not they have special bio media. The nitrifying bacteria apparently reside in the soil itself.

To be fair, Diana would probably point out that bacteria isn't the only thing newly installed plants have to compete with: they also have to compete with algae. That is another reason to get them growing rapidly.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Yes, soil naturally contains nitrifying bacteria. I suspect that nitrification would occur in bagged soil sitting around for awhile, whether or not it was fertilized. Organic matter contains protein, DNA, and other molecules that contain nitrogen. Decomposition converts this to ammonia, CO2, etc. Nitrifying bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrates. This all happens naturally as an aerobic process before you ever add the soil to the tank. All this activity nitrogen cycling we talk about in our tanks also takes place in terrestrial soils. 

You want plants growing well to get a head start on algae, get their roots established before the soil layer begins turning anaerobic, etc. Bacteria in the soil layer don't really get cranked up in activity for a week or two. Ideally, the plants should be getting established and starting to grow at the same time.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Welll I think my main issue will likely turn out to be a current iron deficiancy. Also not sure how clear I made this but while my dog was ill I did not remember to feed Captian as often as I had been. I would give him 2-3 small meals throught out the day. From Oct-Dec. there would sadly be days I would forget to feed him all I had so much stuff going on, and Im awear that would have had a impact in plant growth. 
But ill leave it a the three Ember Tetras the four Cherry Shrimp and the snails and keep my eye out for a new betta.
Im debating about looking online, just not sure where to begin of if the current shipping costs would even make it worth it.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So does anyone have any recommendations for additional plants I could add. Other rotalas, ludwiga etc. Plants that could be indicators of iron defficiencies? More of the floaring tiger?
I currently have 2 sword (micro chain, little prince), 4 crypts ( bronze, green gecko, nurii phang mutated, lucens) rotala h'ra 2.5 buce and a pathetic piece of star grass. Oh and guppy weed. 

Ive dosed the 1/64 of micros twice now friday and sunday.
Not sure if the micros have anything to do with it but I have 1-2 new leaved on all the crypts and new growth on the rotala. 








Also im going to turn this into a journal now. So change the title of this post or no?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I would say you have a very pretty tank. If your water's nitrogen parameters are zero across the board, just add some fish at this point. You've come an extraordinarily long way these past six months!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I would say you have a very pretty tank. If your water's nitrogen parameters are zero across the board, just add some fish at this point. You've come an extraordinarily long way these past six months!


Nice of you to say. I still think it looks pretty rough but hopefully im getting on the right track.
I think I'll get more of Floating Tigers Ive noticed the 3 Ember Tetras won't come to the surface of the tank, but I do notice they are more active when the lights are off. So maybe the light bothers them or they feel unprotected or a combination of the two. I have only had them for...3 or 4 days so.
Maybe another stem plant or two, possibly something that indicates iron in the tank.
And funny thing my LFS got in more bettas and had two yelllow/golds and a very nice koi colored, Im thinking about going back for one. Took a bad pic of one of the golds


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So I think Im going to bite the bullet and have my LFS hold that yellow/orange betta.
















Hes the fist of that color my LFS has had in in a long while. The colors/types that are common at my LFS's are of course blues, red mostly veil tails then Dragon scales, marbles, koi, some mustards and black orchids. Thankfully HMPK are a regular type at both the LFS i frequent.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So my Spec has a new betta who still needs a name.








Now he is not the same yellow one as in the previous photos. My LFS had 2 of this color. I wanted the one in previous photos he seemed calm and I thought he had a nice shape to him. The other was a total spaz, pretty chunky with a raging underbite. 
So wed at 10am called and asked my LFS to hold him for me I would pick him up on Thurdsay.
So i go to get him and guess which fish is being held.... tge spaz with the underbite. Someone bought the other orange about 10 min before ai called Wed. morning go figure.
So right now he spazzing all over his new tank and the tretas are juging him like they didnt just do the same thing four days ago.

Ive ordered more floating tigers, rotala caterpillar and bacopa carolina hopefully they do well.

I need to figure out how long/often i need to dose the micros I dont want to swing from iron defficency to toxicity. I have alage coming back in the tank so i need the floaters and another fast grower i think, but also have new growth on just about everything in the tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So running into some algae issues, mostly the green fuzz alage on the leaves of the crypts and tank walls. Correct me if im not on the right track but this bloom is caused by a two fold issue. No floating/emergant growth and doseing the tank with micros to combact an iron defficency from using a compost substrate.

Now in Diana's book theris lots of focus on iron toxcicity and iron as boon for algae growth. I have not figured out a way to test for iron, and have come up with mixed results for iron tests comerically avaliable. 
So as of right now i thinking that my best course of action would be to switch to a iron supplement that can be added to the substrte and not the water column and pray to the postal gods that my floaters, rotala and bacopa get here on tuesday with no delays. I dont think I have enough fast growing plants and am still a little unclear on which stem plants fall undee that catagory.

Now onto my concerns about iron toxcicity. I have only administered 3 1/64 doses of micros to the tank since Diana first suggest that this could be one of the contributers to poor plant growth. I dont remember what day it was she suggested this lol.
Now i am having new growth on all the crypts, and the Little Prince sword plant all with good color. However on the small piece of stargrass i have left and on a few guppy weed stems I have leaves turning clear in the center or edges of the leaves. Now im not sure if I can tie this into a defficency or just natural allelopathy within the tank.
I do not want to in my somewhat ignorance swing the pendelum from deficiant to toxic. 
Now another line of thought that I have just begun to consider exploring is the pump/filitration. Everything is still stock that came with the Spec, and i have the filter and little pre filter media bag in the tank. Now is this colonozing too much bacteria (despite not having a bio bag) thus steeling nutrients from the tank and furthering the plant and algae competition.

Hopefully I see some improvent when the new plants arrive as i continue to try and tackle the iron issue.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Since you lost your floating plants, that suggests an iron deficiency in the water.
> Did you use compost? Real mineral soil contains plentiful iron, but pure organic material like peat does not. If so, it could be your tank is deficient in iron.
> I would add a micronutrient fertilizer and/or chelated iron. Try again with floating plants. Your goal should be to have enough nutrients in the water to grow floating plants.


My interpretation is that Diana meant the iron to be added to the water column, specifically for the benefit of the floaters. I would wait for the floaters to arrive before taking any further action.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Make sure you have a photoperiod of at least 12 hours. Floaters need lots of light. 
You'll have to experiment with the iron dosing. _After _you add the floating plants, if new leaves are yellow (chlorotic), that suggests iron deficiency. Then add a little iron.
However, if old leaves on other plants, especially slow-growers (i.e., Crypts), turn red/brown and disintegrate, then you have iron toxicity. Fast growers grow fast enough to dilute the iron inside their tissue so that it does not reach toxic levels.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Make sure you have a photoperiod of at least 12 hours. Floaters need lots of light.
> You'll have to experiment with the iron dosing. _After _you add the floating plants, if new leaves are yellow (chlorotic), that suggests iron deficiency. Then add a little iron.
> However, if old leaves on other plants, especially slow-growers (i.e., Crypts), turn red/brown and disintegrate, then you have iron toxicity. Fast growers grow fast enough to dilute the iron inside their tissue so that it does not reach toxic levels.


Great thanks for the clarification. I have a 13 hour photo period currently. 
Chlorotic is deffiently what the previous floaters fell victum too. 
Hopefully the plants are not delayed, and arrive on Wednesday but postage and shipping has been so unreliable right now.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So its been almost a month and things have.... improved.








I have trimmed back the guppy weed a bit and would really like to just get rid of it but ill wait on that. 

I got the new plants on the Tuesday after my last post. So Folating Tiger frogbait, baccopa..... cant remember the name but its the ond that turns a nice pinkish color. Rotala caterpiller and a freebee bunch of ldwigia needleleaf.

So everything took off and did really well for about 2 weeks (i had dosed micros for 4 days prior to the plants arrival) and then i noticed growth slowing down a bit. 
End of last week i noticed whitish spots on the leaves of the floating tiger (ill take pics to post whenim home) and the classic signs of iron defficency, dark veins against a pale leaf. So two days ago i started doseing my micros again. 1/64 once a day. 
Of course i have also since seen a minor uptick in algae but nothing like it was before. The plants really did their job and took care of the algae.

So does anyone have ideas on what I should do for the iron decicency i have. How often should I dose or should O only wait till I see signs of deficiency which im not sure i would want to do because it is a strss on plants?
I noticed an almost immediate difference in the bacopa which has now taken on a nice pink hue.
Everyone in the tank is doing great. My betta is still without a name and the Ember tetras are all variations of glutton and spazz.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Holy crap i just looked back at my old post and things have improved a lot lol.
Ill have to get individual pics of some the plants. Im particueally thrilled about my Star Grass which came back from the brink of almost nothing.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Heres some close ups of the plants.








The floating tiger with the disscoloration in the leaves.









The recovering Star grass.








The pink bacopa.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Excellent documentation of iron-dosing results! Also tank is as cute as can be.
Seeing these pictures persuaded me to add a little iron to some of my tanks.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Excellent documentation of iron-dosing results! Also tank is as cute as can be.
> Seeing these pictures persuaded me to add a little iron to some of my tanks.


Thanks! I am thrilled with how well everything has recovered. The star grass still amazes me. I am well awear of the relisance of plants I have brought prennials, house plants and seculents back from the brink, but this was still amazing to see.

I am thinking of doseing 1/64 of micros once a week and see if that keeps the levels stable in the tank while preventing the algae spike I experience when I dose three days in a row in an attempt to correct the deficency. 

I will document how that doseing schedule works and if i need to decrease or increass the frequency. It will also give me a solid footing on what to expect when I tear apart my 36gal in May or June. I intend to use the same compost I used last year. It sat in my driveway all winter lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So Mondays is going to be my day for adding 1/64 micros. I will be using the quanity and color of the strips on the Floating Tiger as a marker along with the bacopa Colorata and just overall plant growth and color.
So heres starting photos








Bacopa Colorata








And the overall tank









In other news my new betta seems to be having a issue. He seems to be having some bouyance issues. Hanging out near the top of the tank and either laying on his side or going vertical. He still interacts with me but the rest is not normal behavior for him. He also had a small red spot on the top of his head it could just be a minor scrape but im not sure.








Ill see if i can get some better pics. 
I hope nothing is wrong. I bought him from my LFS which is totally independent and not part of a chain and are for a LFS very good about their fish. But i also know that buying healthy bettas is a gambit and tricky.
Any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Your betta likely has an internal infection of the air bladder. Best to remove him and treat him with antibiotics.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

It could be a problem with your betta's swim bladder. A common cause is constipation from overfeeding. It's a tricky thing to balance in a Walstad, because you want to feed a lot to add nutrients back to the tank but the betta will try to eat EVERYTHING you put in xD

I ended up using a sinking pellet with my betta to add additional food. Feed a few betta pellets, then add a sinking one that he can't get.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Your betta likely has an internal infection of the air bladder. Best to remove him and treat him with antibiotics.


Yah i figured i was dealing with some sort of swim bladder issue. 
His symptoms are textbook for the most part. Ive delt with it before in my koi and pond goldfish usually it was from them being gluttons and over eating.
Thats what i was leaning towards with this betta.
I hadnt considered an infection because my water paramaters are perfect, but if he already had some sort of infection when i bought him......
Im assuming a broad spectrum antibiotic would be the best bet, im a bit out of date on whats being currently good to use.
If i do that i have to go get a new quartine tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> It could be a problem with your betta's swim bladder. A common cause is constipation from overfeeding. It's a tricky thing to balance in a Walstad, because you want to feed a lot to add nutrients back to the tank but the betta will try to eat EVERYTHING you put in xD
> 
> I ended up using a sinking pellet with my betta to add additional food. Feed a few betta pellets, then add a sinking one that he can't get.


This is what i was leaning towards initially. I already feed betta pellet food and try to 2-3 pellets usually 2 times a day sometimes 3. Their are emeber tetras in the tank with him who get crushed up flakes so I had thought I was managing feeding everyone well. Hes also a lazy bugger who wont chase a pellet if it falls into the plants  just swims back to the top for a easy meal.
I guess i can take a two prong approach, get a quartine tank set up just in case while withholding food for 3 days and seeing how he responds. If i dont see a improvement then quartine and antibiotics.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

So many aquarium fish are bred strictly for color, uniformity, fast growth, etc. No selection for disease resistance or longevity, so the resulting fish are genetically weak and susceptible to any disease that blows their way. My article 'Guppy Longevity' (available on my website) describes the problem and my solution with fancy guppies, but I am sure that it applies to many other exotic, highly bred aquarium fish such as yours.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> So many aquarium fish are bred strictly for color, uniformity, fast growth, etc. No selection for disease resistance or longevity, so the resulting fish are genetically weak and susceptible to any disease that blows their way. My article 'Guppy Longevity' (available on my website) describes the problem and my solution with fancy guppies, but I am sure that it applies to many other exotic, highly bred aquarium fish such as yours.


Yes this is what I am afraid of. I skimmed through your Guppy article when I purchaed your book, and its always something thats in the back of my mind.
If I am not able to save him then he will mark the last betta I buy from a LFS.

I cant remember this sites rules on recommending or naming a purchase/ place of business but I had looked at FranksBettas when i was first looking at buying a betta. His site is what got me hooked on the plakat body shape. I didnt want to shell out that sort of money on a first fish in a newly set up up tank and buying and shipping a fish from another country made me second guess...
Either way whatever happens I think thats where my next fish will come from even if im still unsure about shipping. I prefer how the wild types look along with their colors they are stunning and elegant without being guady.

Ive not fed golden boy at all today and i have my fingers crossed its just over feeding. I went out and bought a 3 gal bowl for a quartine tank (my cats knocked over and cracked my last one) and Im getting that set up as well just in case. Thanks for all the advice.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Well everything is a go for the quartine tank but im afraid it will all be in vain. Golden boy is not improving at all and, hard for me to tell on such a small fish, but I think he now also has dropsy....... Very dissappointed but I guess this is the gamet you run even when going to a non chain LFS who are great about their fish and try to source from local breeders when they can.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Well just got home and Golden Boy had died. Cant say i didnt expect this outcome but was still hopeing for a good outcome.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Always a tough discovery. Sorry to hear about it.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

So sorry. For people that want to promote aquarium-keeping, they might want to focus on the fragility of commercially bred strains. Dead fish are a real downer for the hobby.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> So sorry. For people that want to promote aquarium-keeping, they might want to focus on the fragility of commercially bred strains. Dead fish are a real downer for the hobby.


So am I. I wish that was something that was acknowledged at LFS. I will probably try one from a LFS again, I know alot of people who are in the betta community know the risks and see it as rescuing and giving them a good home for however long they have. For me right now I cant really stand looseing another in such a short period of time. Theres no consquences for the people that poorly breed and dont care for the fish.

I messaged Frankbettas today to enquire about the exact bettas he had for the Splendens Yelllow and spade tail as well as the alien copper and steel blue. I will post pics once he sends them I'll probably need help deciding.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Iron Deficiency Week 2*
So I have decided not to dose micros this week. The plants are looking good so i am earing on the side of caution. I am having a bit of algae on the walls and am also trying to account for still not having a betta in the tank. Totally reliant on the ember tetras right now.
Waiting to hear back from Frank with photos of the currant betta splendens and the spade tail. Also asked for some photos of the alien steel grey.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

PlentyCoup said:


> *Iron Deficiency Week 2*
> So I have decided not to dose micros this week. The plants are looking good so i am earing on the side of caution. I am having a bit of algae on the walls and am also trying to account for still not having a betta in the tank. Totally reliant on the ember tetras right now.
> Waiting to hear back from Frank with photos of the currant betta splendens and the spade tail. Also asked for some photos of the alien steel grey.


Frank's bettas look so great! I really was considering getting one of his a while back, but decided not because of all the shipping hassle. Let us know how it goes if you decide to!

So sorry to hear about Golden Boy. The grief from losing a fish is something I find a lot of people "IRL" don't really understand. But they're our pets, so it always hurts.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Got some photos of options from franksbettas, i believe these are the yellow splandens. I think he will be sending more photos but these are two options right now.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

If you're not opposed, take a look at some of his wild varieties as well. Mahachai and Imbellis in particular have very similar care to splendens and should do great in a Walstad-style aquarium. And they're beautiful!

This is one of his Imbellis:


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> If you're not opposed, take a look at some of his wild varieties as well. Mahachai and Imbellis in particular have very similar care to splendens and should do great in a Walstad-style aquarium. And they're beautiful!
> 
> This is one of his Imbellis:
> View attachment 74947


Yes I saw the imbellis as well. I got a bit side tracked with the possibility of getting a spade tail, and I didn't want to be that annoying person who photos of every fish.... 
But yes those are stunning as well. I was also trying to pick a different color then the two i have previously had. But I think he had other colors of the imbellis...... ugh ill have to ask and get more photos...... lol making my decision harder


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

I’d love to hear what you decide and how the shipping process goes for you either way. And I doubt he cares about sending you more photos, I’m sure that’s very normal.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> I’d love to hear what you decide and how the shipping process goes for you either way. And I doubt he cares about sending you more photos, I’m sure that’s very normal.


Well ive asked for photos of the imbellis and reveived confirmation that the two pictured above are the yellow splenden spadetails. I not if either really pictured above is really what i want so..... If i only those 2 to pick one I think i would choose the lighter one with only the spots of red on the fins. 
Thoughts on anyone one elses choice would be appreciated. Hopefully ill have more choices to post soon.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

PlentyCoup said:


> Well ive asked for photos of the imbellis and reveived confirmation that the two pictured above are the yellow splenden spadetails. I not if either really pictured above is really what i want so..... If i only those 2 to pick one I think i would choose the lighter one with only the spots of red on the fins.
> Thoughts on anyone one elses choice would be appreciated. Hopefully ill have more choices to post soon.


I'd say if you aren't totally happy with the ones pictured, try to get pics of others or wait until he has some that you like. This is a fairly big financial investment and a pet you will hopefully have for quite some time. Have patience and get one you'll really enjoy.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Got another photo and some videos in of more of franks bettas, this time its the green imbellis.
And I dont think i can post a video on here. 
Well here's the pic of the newest yellow splenda he sent. 








Maybe I can take a screenshot of the fish in the videos.

I have been swamped with finishing my semester at college. Also getting ready to enter some of my ceramic pieces into a local art show, also begun the process of tearing apart my old pond so i will probably start a post of that massive project.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'm a little curious and not well versed on Bettas. Did you choose this vendor, because his fish are known to be healthier than fancy Bettas sold in LFS?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> I'm a little curious and not well versed on Bettas. Did you choose this vendor, because his fish are known to be healthier than fancy Bettas sold in LFS?


Yes I choose Franksbettas because of the health of his fish, I had heard nothing but good things when I was researching. 

Some of the fish in my LFS are stunning but I cant deal with a fish that I will get attatched to and have it live less then a year. I know many betta people consider it "rescuing" and giving the fish a good home for however long it has, but I have tried that route twice and would rather support someone who cares about the health of their fish and as a bonus their natural enviornment as well.
He is very, very much into conservation and breeds wild bettas to return to natural areas they have dissapeared from. The wild types he sells are more then 8-10 generations removed from actual wild bettas.

I picked out a Betta one of the green Imbellis from the videos he sent me. He is about 4 months old. I am not sure how or even if i even can post a video on here. So I am just waiting for him to send a invoice and then i will finalize the purchase. I have contacted a transhipper as well.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Frank's collect his fish from the wild.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Frank's collect his fish from the wild.


On his site they are listed as wild types all captive bred. The colors offered are also far more vibrant them true wilds. 
Too my knowledge he does not take fish directly from the wild.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

PlentyCoup said:


> On his site they are listed as wild types all captive bred. The colors offered are also far more vibrant them true wilds.
> Too my knowledge he does not take fish directly from the wild.


He has a youtube channel. I remember seeing him netting wild bettas from ponds.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> He has a youtube channel. I remember seeing him netting wild bettas from ponds.


I will have to look. I just went by what he talked about on his website and from other people who had purchased from him, everyone i read threads about/spoke to had nothing but good things to say so hopefully everything on his site isnt one big fabrication.

The one i am purchasing is listed as captive bred wild type.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I think he breeds the best-looking wilds. His bettas are top-notch. There is nothing wrong with catching wilds. He does it responsibly.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes I choose Franksbettas because of the health of his fish, I had heard nothing but good things when I was researching.
> 
> Some of the fish in my LFS are stunning but I cant deal with a fish that I will get attached to and have it live less then a year. I know many betta people consider it "rescuing" and giving the fish a good home for however long it has, but I have tried that route twice and would rather support someone who cares about the health of their fish and as a bonus their natural envirornment as well.
> He is very, very much into conservation and breeds wild bettas to return to natural areas they have disappeared from. The wild types he sells are more then 8-10 generations removed from actual wild bettas.
> ...


Sounds good! Thank you for the explanation. I applaud you and him for focusing on what is truly important. Not just the cheapest fish or the Bling...


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Frank is part of the reason I got back into aquariums a few years back. His bettas are absolutely stunning! If you want to see some impressive and happy looking fish, take a look at his website. 

This thread is making me want another beta. But I want to use my 6g for breeding shrimp! Agh, which to pick....


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

My betta is scheduled to arrive today but not with out issues. 
I checked the tracking last night around midnight and saw Expected Arrival Monday June 13 which was a massive hell no.
So i called UPS at midnight and asked why as a live animal was being delayed till monday instead of saturday. I was told that the guaranteed 2 day shipping by UPS does not see Saturday as a business/delivery day and even if my fish arrived at our Saginaw delivery center, which has Saturday delivery, he would sit their till monday. 
So the person I spoke to claimed they marked the package as urgent do not delay.
When i checked this morning his arrival time had switched back to today and he was in route from Lansing to Saginaw. If it looks like he will arrive at Sginaws distribution center today but not be delivered till tomorrow i will go and pick him up.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> My betta is scheduled to arrive today but not with out issues.
> I checked the tracking last night around midnight and saw Expected Arrival Monday June 13 which was a massive hell no.
> So i called UPS at midnight and asked why as a live animal was being delayed till monday instead of saturday. I was told that the guaranteed 2 day shipping by UPS does not see Saturday as a business/delivery day and even if my fish arrived at our Saginaw delivery center, which has Saturday delivery, he would sit their till monday.
> So the person I spoke to claimed they marked the package as urgent do not delay.
> When i checked this morning his arrival time had switched back to today and he was in route from Lansing to Saginaw. If it looks like he will arrive at Sginaws distribution center today but not be delivered till tomorrow i will go and pick him up.


Wow, PC. I really admire how you took the bull by the horns. I was an utter wreck waiting for my first and only UPS fish delivery. Forty-eight hours in a dark box does seem unnecessarily cruel. I hope you find him in good health (I'm sure you will.) Keep us posted.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So looks like he will arrive today.
He clocked in at my Saginaw distribution center at 8:44 am and is preparing for delivery.
So fingers crossed, glad i made that phone call last night.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So he arrived about 10 min ago and his bag is now floating in the tank. He was packaged very well.
Here he is in the bag.









The water is very tannis heavy so its veru hard to see how he looks like right now.
But he is swimming around and looks to be ok stress from the journey aside. Dont know if anyone wants to see the packaging lol.
I didnt even think about getting a photo i was too focused on getting him out of the box. 

I have the light off on the tank, so that isnt an added shock to his system. 

So in a half hour or so i will add him to the tank.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Remember not to drip-acclimate a shipped fish! When you open the bag, the oxygen will start converting nitrogen stored in the bag to ammonia (I don't fully understand the process so if someone could elaborate that would be great, but this is what I've heard). So it's better to temperature acclimate with the bag closed and then transfer over right away.

The coloration in the bag may be medication or some chemicals to make shipping easier? Just speculation.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Dont know if anyone wants to see the packaging lol.


I do! I do! I'm a sucker for packaging and all that stuff. The bags look like regular plastic, yes?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Remember not to drip-acclimate a shipped fish! When you open the bag, the oxygen will start converting nitrogen stored in the bag to ammonia (I don't fully understand the process so if someone could elaborate that would be great, but this is what I've heard). So it's better to temperature acclimate with the bag closed and then transfer over right away.
> 
> The coloration in the bag may be medication or some chemicals to make shipping easier? Just speculation.


Frank emiled a care sheet that said not to drip acclimate. Not something I was aware of as this is my first time with a shipped fish. 

I will be moving him to the tank shortly and Franks care sheet said to pour him into a cup then him and all the water into the tank and not to net him. 

I dont think their are any medications Frank never mentioned anything. Frank uses almond leaves in all his betta tanks and the water is very, very heavy in tannins looks tea colored.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

jatcar95 said:


> Remember not to drip-acclimate a shipped fish! When you open the bag, the oxygen will start converting nitrogen stored in the bag to ammonia (I don't fully understand the process so if someone could elaborate that would be great, but this is what I've heard). So it's better to temperature acclimate with the bag closed and then transfer over right away.
> 
> The coloration in the bag may be medication or some chemicals to make shipping easier? Just speculation.


You're thinking of ammonium (acidic low pH) is less toxic or even non-toxic since the bag is full of CO2 (causes low pH). The tannins are also acidic so they will keep the water pH low.
Once you open the bag, the CO2 leaves and the pH rises causing the ammonium to turn into ammonia which is toxic. 

I would float the bag to temperature acclimate at least.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I do! I do! I'm a sucker for packaging and all that stuff. The bags look like regular plastic, yes?


Yes it looks like a regular plastic bag wrapped in several layers of packing tape. 

Here is a recreation of the box. The styrofoam cylinder was a very tight fit in the box i had to rip the side of the box open to get it out. 


















There was a heat pack taped to the lid of styrofoam. The bag was in bubble wrap and then wrapped in newspaper.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> You're thinking of ammonium (acidic low pH) is less toxic or even non-toxic since the bag is full of CO2 (causes low pH). The tannins are also acidic so they will keep the water pH low.
> Once you open the bag, the CO2 leaves and the pH rises causing the ammonium to turn into ammonia which is toxic.
> 
> I would float the bag to temperature acclimate at least.


My apistos arrived in Breather Bags which were opaque and had an almost paper-like feel (but still clear enough to see that something was floating inside.) I imagine all of that ammonium into ammonia process would occur overnight and really would argue for not delaying transfer to the host tank longer than necessary (like enough to equalize the temperatures.)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes it looks like a regular plastic bag wrapped in several layers of packing tape.
> 
> Here is a recreation of the box. The styrofoam cylinder was a very tight fit in the box i had to rip the side of the box open to get it out.
> View attachment 75150
> ...


[sharp intake of breath] You've made my day. I was wondering about the heating pad. My shipment was in winter so I was pleasantly surprised to find it. OMG, how exciting!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Ok so he is in the tank now phew.
Totally miss read the directions. Pour out the water then tip him into the tank out of the empty bag. I didnt think that sounded right before you never add foreign water to your tank.








Best photo i have been able to get so far. 
He seems to be slowly checking everything out.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oh, he's beautiful! Love the red highlights!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I think he is settling in just fine. 
I have to start thinking of names now. 

My kasa light timer turned on at 4 and i was able to lgrab a slightly better photo of him before i turned the lights back off. 








He has already lost the stress strips he had when he first arrived.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Very pretty! What kind did you go with? I may have missed it if you mentioned before...


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Very pretty! What kind did you go with? I may have missed it if you mentioned before...


I went with a green imbellis. I can't remember if I did say which type i went with.

He is small and I think frank said all his fish are 4 or 5 months old. I never asked what their mature size was but i do know they are the smallest of the betta species.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

He seems to be settling in fine. He has gone right along with the 4 ember tetras and joined them when i feed them their flake food. I still have to go pick up frozen bloodworms just in case. 

So i think that the tank has a taken a bit of a hit after almost 2 months with nothing but 4 emeber tetras. I should have probably started looking into additions sooner.

The imbellis betta is very small compared to the splenda so i am concerned about not having enough fish to support the plants.

I have kept up with dosing the micros about twice a month and have not seen any further signs of iron deficiency but i have had a significant decrease in plant growth.

Zimmerman had some endlers that were good for nano tanks, and i wanted to try those in the 36gal with the bluespots. Or am i better off waiting and seeing how if everything picks back up over the next couple of weeks.

Any other suggestions for a good nano fish maybe something that breed, johnwesley0 still had me interested on that dynamic from his journal lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So he has been setteling in but not really "setteling" in. Been holding onto his stress strips off and on. Have been checking the water. Everything was in range expect the gh kh and ph they were just slightly higher then what a he might be comfortable.
He was looking more stressed last night so i checked the water again.
Kh- 8 drops 145 ppm approx
Gh- 12 drops 214 ppm approx
Ph- 7.8 up from 7.4 last week.

So not good and he is not looking to happy either. I had finally ordered almond leaves and just got them yesterday. They are small all around 2-3in size.
I am a bit at a loss here i have never really had any issues with my water hardness or ph before, i have city water and everything has always been in the 110-125 marker, and my ph is usually 7.2-7.4.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Just double checked hardness for my area and its 104ppm so i have never had a issue before this. 
Going to redo my test for gh kh maybe i was off somehow. 
Either way he is currently not a happy camper. 
Trying to get a decent photo of him.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So just had a bit of a ahha moment. 
The CSM+B i have been adding to my tank twice a month for iron deficency for my plants well the amount of mg in it has slowly been raising my gh and i wasnt really making the connection.

I should have just gone and gotten cheletrd iron and added just that.
Heres the breakdown of the micros i have been adding.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good you figured this out! The Mg (magnesium) would increase your GH. Plentiful Mg and very little calcium is not natural. 
Be careful when adding fertilizers. They can cause more problems than they solve.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Good you figured this out! The Mg (magnesium) would increase your GH. Plentiful Mg and very little calcium is not natural.
> Be careful when adding fertilizers. They can cause more problems than they solve.


Yah I knew it had to be something. With 104ppm from my tap water I have never had to give much worry to water hardness.

I will buy just chelated iron and use that since i know I have a history of deficiency. .
I will do a small water change tonight to try and get this lowered.
About how much can i safely remove? I was aiming for maybe 3/4 to 1 gal from a 3 gal tank.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You can buy or make tannin tea to put in the tank by boiling dry leaves. You can collect dry edible fruit & nut leaves that haven't been sprayed for pesticides. You can buy banana leaves in the Asian market to dry for this use. It's much cheaper than Indian Almond leaves. I would wash all the leaves first.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> About how much can i safely remove? I was aiming for maybe 3/4 to 1 gal from a 3 gal tank.


If you know your water is basically safe (no chloramines or chlorine) that sounds fine to me.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

As usual I fail at consistent updates. I have done 2 water changes since I pin pointed the warter hardness issue. I did one water change with in days of about a a gallon and hardness dropped to about 170ppm. So i figured that i lower it the rest of the way using tannins.

The Gh has stayed stuck at that level since. I just did another small water change of about 3/4 of a gal. 
I am using api gh/kh test kit. So that's x number of drops to turn the water from orange to green. So according to their chart 10 drops is approx 170ppm.
Of course ive gotton ahead of myself and posted this before finishing checking the rest of the levels. Need to get ph checked pronto.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

So your tapwater has adequate hardness. That's good. Simplifies everything. I wouldn't worry about the pH, as many fish (discus, etc) do fine in hardwater with an alkaline pH. Only if you are breeding softwater fish, would you want to provide them with the water chemistry of their native habitat.
That said, I try to get fish that will work in a planted tank. There are so many good candidates!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> So your tapwater has adequate hardness. That's good. Simplifies everything. I wouldn't worry about the pH, as many fish (discus, etc) do fine in hardwater with an alkaline pH. Only if you are breeding softwater fish, would you want to provide them with the water chemistry of their native habitat.
> That said, I try to get fish that will work in a planted tank. There are so many good candidates!


I guess i didnt explain this very well. My natural tap water hardness runs around130-140ppm, and that is what it is in my other tank. When I realized the issue the hardness was at 230ppm, 2 water changes has brought it down to 170ppm. 

So clearly the water in my betta tank is artificially elevated still from the magnesium from me adding the micros when my plants had iron deficiency. The betta is a betta imbellis from frank and does appreciate softer water but when i checked with frank my natural water hardness would be just fine for them. 
So i need to get my hardness down just a bit more so it is closer to my tap waters natural hardness.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So here is an updated pic of the tank. Still having issues. 









Things are clearly not looking their best. 
My gh has remained artifically high from the magnesium in the microa to treat my recurring iron defficiency. This in an of itself is not an issue but when it was elevated to 240ppm with a imbellis betta from Frank it became a bit of a issue.
I did a water change of about 3/4 of a gal which dropped gh to 170ppm. 
Did another water change and gh stayed at 170ppm.
I went back online to check what my straight waters gh is supposed to be and it said gh for my areas water is 110ppm. 
This blew my mind because when i set this tank up I checked and gh was supposed to be 138ppm. So I spent a good hour trying to find where I had gotten that number from. I swear it came from my township website and their official water report.

Either way I need to get my gh down to at least 130ppm. My imbellis is showing stress stripes. He colors up when i feed him but hides alot during the day which I have to assume is because of the hardness. Frank said my gh of at the time of his purchase of approx 130 would be more them acceptable for him. 

So theories I have and tbings i plan to try. 
I have no algae and my ammonium and nitrites are non existent. So I still have the filter in the back slot of the tank that came with the fluval spec with a bag of mechanical media. This filter is most likely throwing off the various cycles in my tank. Also despite the necessity of my two water changes I feel they further disrupted my tank by removing DOC, built up fish mulm etc. I also had a period of a couple weeks during this shole fiasco where I was out of the house constantly. As a result the fish did not get feed their usually twice daily feeding. So here I am removing all the good stuff from my tank and its not being sufficiently replaced. 

To top it all off the floaters are just beginning to show signs of iron deficiency again. So I need to find a source of chelated iron. Nilcog has chelated iron in a half pound bag for $20 and I am hoping to find something cheaper.

The only tank inhabitants are the imbellis betta, 1 mystery smail, 3 nerites 2 of them were moved in from 36gal and 3 ember tetras. 

Plan moving foreward is to remove filter but keep pump running, possibly buy 2 more ember tetras, trim and spread out the rotala, thin out the floaters again as the crypys in the cennter and back of the tank are leggy and long while the nurrii phang mutated in the front corner is holding it own despite supposedly being harder to grow then the more common green gecko and wendtii bronze.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So here is an updated pic of the tank. Still having issues.
> View attachment 75515
> 
> 
> ...


First, let me say this has been one of the most enjoyable threads on El Naturel. Your openness to suggestions, your patience with all the _kibitzing, _the empathy with fellow living creatures over the space of the past year has been breathtaking in the light of more recent experience.

A few questions:

What happened to your guppy grass?
What do you think would happen, if you stopped mechanical filtering?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> First, let me say this has been one of the most enjoyable threads on El Naturel. Your openness to suggestions, your patience with all the _kibitzing, _the empathy with fellow living creatures over the space of the past year has been breathtaking in the light of more recent experience.
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...


First off thank you for that😊 I have always hoped that someone would find something useful im inane ramblings, random research binges and sporadic updates😂
Second off. I can not believe it has been a YEAR!!! Holy hell I find that very hard to believe.

Now to answer you questions

1) Guppy grass..... I really have no clue what happened to it. It was a literal WEED. I had to fight my urge to rip it all out. I had to prune it regurally because it combined with the floaters was really restricting light penetration.
At one point it just stopped growing. I am thinking i might have a patch of anaerobic soil on that side of the tank as my Little Prince Sword is almost non existent. There is still some guppy weed that seems to have transplanted itself in with my rotala. I plan to trim the rotala and move it around the tank so its not so clumped together.

2) Mechanical filtration. So for me and how I started off with tanks (goldfish, comets, koi plant less tanks, ponds) Filtration was not a option it was a must. I knew you had mechanical (to catch large particles prolong life of pump) and biological (nitrogen cycle). Those were crucial because with out those you are essentially poisoning your fish. I still cant believe that my Great Grandmother Tootsie used to keep goldfish in glss bowls. I was six or seven when she died but I remember those fish and every day she would empty the bowl fill it with fresh water, no pump no conditioner no nothing. Knowing what I know now its amazing the fish lived as long as they did.

So if I pull out the square filter pad and the bag of mechanical media then nothing would probably happen. On the contrary my tank would probably benefit from it. It more imgrained habit that mechanical filtration helps protect the pump from clogging damage etc. But i will keep the pump itself running.
I make this distinction because I sometimes feel words like "filter" "mechanical" etc. are used to encompass the pump itself. People interchange words sometimes people say filter and are referring to the pump not the filter pads inside the pump.

I know Diana and others in the hobby have pump less tanks but it is just not something I am at all comfortable with.

I would like to try that method possibly with a shrimp bowl/jar/thing, but as of right now 20 years of ingrained habit does not allow me to abondone a pump in its entirety and its purpose of oxygen circulation.

It has certainly been huge learning curve, especially with how I entered the planted aspect of the hobby, which is another long and involved story lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i am floored and completely shocked this morning. Whet to feed everyone and my betta did not come zooming out from under the driftwood where he likes to sleep at night so i looking for him and finally see him dead on the bottom of tank. 

What the hell. He was perfectly fine last night came to eat, i had gotten him to eat flake food off my finger. I had removed the filter pad and media done a small water change and my Gh was down to 9° so close to 145ppm.
So i am just floored this is why i decided to try a fish that was from a reputable breeder. 

I am wondering if the issue was my yo-yoing with my water hardness and adding the micros instead of just straight iron? 

So i guess Ill go back to getting them from LFS stores. I mean its aweful how they treat them and they will most likely not live long but me boycotting them wont change any of that. Clearly ordering from a breeder is not the significant change in outcome I thought it would be unless the differences in water were the cause of all this, but even then.........

So i guess get a betta from a LFS and they have a good life for as long as they can. I mean im not sure if paying shipping and higher price


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Do you have a heater?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Do you have a heater?


Oh of course have a 25watt Eheim heater set to 78. It was the first thing i purchased for the nano tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Your tank in post #157 appears to have other fish. I lost track of when you got them. Do they look all right?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Your tank in post #157 appears to have other fish. I lost track of when you got them. Do they look all right?


Yes i have 5 ember tetras 1 mystery and 1 nerite snail. They are all doing just fine.

I am going to do some research but I am wondering if the betta being from Franks in Thailand and the water that he was raised in vs the water here and not being able to adapt. I know the water that Franks breeds and raises them in is the same as their natural water very soft under 100ppm.
My water runs 110-120 ppm and when I questioned Franks on if the betta would be able to adapt he said that slight difference wouldnt be a issue. Now fast forward to all the issues I had with low iron then artificially raising the hardness with too much magnesium that was in with the micro nutrients i wad using to take care of the iron deficiency.
At one point the hardness had jumped to 240ppm and for quite a while at least a month i could not get it lower then 170ppm or around 11°. About 2 weeks ago I managed to get down to 145ppm which is medium hard, but im wondering if even that was too much and the stress of not being in the perfect ideal water was too much.
It is the only thing that i can think of. I had just done a water check on thursday and everything was golden and i did another check this am and nothing had changed since thursday.

Maybe he wouldnt have been able to handle the stress of the differences in water parameters without any of the issues i had but i am sure the constant fluctuations did not help.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

hmm, try a more hardy fish. I'm raising some blue gularis killifish right now. Killifish are pretty hardy, just don't get the annuals where they only live for a year. You'd find clown killies at certain pet stores and they're small enough for a nano tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Don't blame yourself. These mystery deaths are the worst.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So I took the evening on Wednesday to finally tackle the minor issues i was having in this tank and move things around a bit.
I discovered that i had a patch of anaerobic soil in the back left corner of the tank where the green gecko crypt was trying to work its way put of the soil and where a kleiner prinz sword has been failing to grow.
So i poked the hell out of the soil moved the green gecko tp the 36gal and planted the guppy weed that was tangles with the rotala. I thinned the rotala a bit.
I also massively thinned the floating tiger dumping more then half in the 36gal. I dont think that i keep it thinned enough and it blocking light to the rest of the plants.
















Everything looks a bit better now. I added one of the costata crypts as well.

I have to go to my petstore for cat stuff so i will probably check out there bettas. I have not checked to see if my LFS has the clown killies @mistergreen mentioned. I also plan of checking with Brian he said he was going to get in some Heterandria formosa (Least Killies).
So will see how all that plays out.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

hmm, I wonder if bettas are extra sensitive to anaerobic, H2S, hydrogen sulfide.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> hmm, I wonder if bettas are extra sensitive to anaerobic, H2S, hydrogen sulfide.


That is a very viable thought. Especially considering that he was a wild type betta who was breed and raised in soft water that is is basically the same water as his natural environment. 
I am sure that he would have been a a healthy and longer lived fish then those raised in a LFS, but i think him being a wild type and the environment he came from means that he might not be able to handle home aquarium environments as well as the ones at LFS or that have become the standard bettas that have become standard in the hobby. 
The difference in the gh probably were not enough to kill him but they were certainly enough to cause him stress which of course would make him more susceptible to a whole host of issues. 
He might have been more sensitive and that compounded by the stress he was under. He never fully lost the stress stripes.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I've had wild B. smaragdina in 7.4pH, 4dGH, 4dKH, 215 tds. They were fine. No stress colors. They died from jumping through the cracks in the cover.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> hmm, I wonder if bettas are extra sensitive to anaerobic, H2S, hydrogen sulfide.


Found this online you are probably onto something, especially since i am unsure how long that soil in the corner was having a issue. 
_Lethal concentrations of hydrogen sulfide for fish come up to 50 μg/L. At this concentration level, there is no chance of survival.
Exposure to lower levels such as 20 μg/L is known to cause extreme stress to fish.
Unfortunately, naturally delicate fish species will not survive exposure to even 20 μg/L of hydrogen sulfide in the tank_.

_Unfortunately, naturally delicate fish species will not survive exposure to even 20 μg/L of hydrogen sulfide in the tank.
At the most, even the healthiest of fish will tolerate exposure to5μg/L only without any negative side effects._


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> I've had wild B. smaragdina in 7.4pH, 4dGH, 4dKH, 215 tds. They were fine. No stress colors. They died from jumping through the cracks in the cover.


Well then you certainly have slightly better luck then me. The imbellis never jumped, but something was clearly up.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah, looks like the low level H2S caused more stress. I think you can keep bettas when the anaerobic situation is solved.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> I know Diana and others in the hobby have pump less tanks but it is just not something I am at all comfortable with.


My understanding, as I am experiencing it, is that water movement and flow is necessary in the first weeks to months of set up. Many times that can be achieved with water changes alone, not mechanically with a pump. However, it appears that after the initial “hot” period as the soil decomposes and roots are established and aerating the soil you can elect to take away the pump. It is about “comfort” though. You have to trust the process.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yah I knew it had to be something. With 104ppm from my tap water I have never had to give much worry to water hardness.
> 
> I will buy just chelated iron and use that since i know I have a history of deficiency. .
> I will do a small water change tonight to try and get this lowered.
> About how much can i safely remove? I was aiming for maybe 3/4 to 1 gal from a 3 gal tank.


Try “Wonder shells”. They fill a lot of the gaps in water chemistry without causing too much mischief like some of these fertilizers. In my tanks I keep it simple. I use a ”shrimp” water conditioner for heavy metals (during water changes), wonder shells and frogbit to clean up nitrogen. So far my water is good, animals and plants are happy. Diana says you can use wondershells at 1/3rd the recommended dose with good results. What I do works for my particular tap water chemistry.
However, wonder shells contain no iron but maybe you don’t need it?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Try “Wonder shells”. They fill a lot of the gaps in water chemistry without causing too much mischief like some of these fertilizers. In my tanks I keep it simple. I use a ”shrimp” water conditioner for heavy metals (during water changes), wonder shells and frogbit to clean up nitrogen. So far my water is good, animals and plants are happy. Diana says you can use wondershells at 1/3rd the recommended dose with good results. What I do works for my particular tap water chemistry.
> However, wonder shells contain no iron but maybe you don’t need it?


I have never used wonder shells. Most of my issues seem to lie with regular iron deficiencies which are due to my use of compost for soil. I have been attempting to research the soil chemistry in my area as well as the chemistry of the compost itself in MMWA pick up area. Researching both of these has been a bit fruitless so far. Its not really a lack of info bit a lack of the right info and the fact that michigan is such a big agriculture state so everything i find is geared towards farmers and the crops they are trying to go (soybeans, sugar beats, corn etc)
The compost is basically pure organic matter so its lacking in some of the minerals that are found in natural soils (silt, clay, quartz etc) or added to commercial soils. So far iron has been my biggest issue. I still have not ordered a dry iron yet. Life sidetracked me and then i got hung up on the 10% 12% 15% etc strengths i found.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> I have never used wonder shells. Most of my issues seem to lie with regular iron deficiencies which are due to my use of compost for soil. I have been attempting to research the soil chemistry in my area as well as the chemistry of the compost itself in MMWA pick up area. Researching both of these has been a bit fruitless so far. Its not really a lack of info bit a lack of the right info and the fact that michigan is such a big agriculture state so everything i find is geared towards farmers and the crops they are trying to go (soybeans, sugar beats, corn etc)
> The compost is basically pure organic matter so its lacking in some of the minerals that are found in natural soils (silt, clay, quartz etc) or added to commercial soils. So far iron has been my biggest issue. I still have not ordered a dry iron yet. Life sidetracked me and then i got hung up on the 10% 12% 15% etc strengths i found.


Diana indicates that devices that oxygenate the water (filters and aerators) can work against you as they convert iron into iron oxide which is unavailable to plants to absorb. She removed these devices from her tank and her iron problems went away. That’s not to say your tank wouldn’t benefit from a small pump that moves water inside of the tank as long as it doesn’t cause surface turbulence.
STS has iron rich minerals in it so maybe consider a cap of that on your gravel?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

FernKing said:


> STS has iron rich minerals in it so maybe consider a cap of that on your gravel?


I had no idea. I knew STS was a type of fired clay, but I never associated that with iron (makes sense to me now - North Carolina red clay -D'uh!) It might explain why I've never had a problem with floaters.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Diana indicates that devices that oxygenate the water (filters and aerators) can work against you as they convert iron into iron oxide which is unavailable to plants to absorb. She removed these devices from her tank and her iron problems went away. That’s not to say your tank wouldn’t benefit from a small pump that moves water inside of the tank as long as it doesn’t cause surface turbulence.
> STS has iron rich minerals in it so maybe consider a cap of that on your gravel?


I am aware of this and always make sure that the water in the tank is high enough to mitigate surface movement. However I just do not trust that there will be enough oxygen during the overnight hours when the plants are not going through photosynthesis. It might be ok with a tank of this small size but i would never ever risk it in my 36gal. Having a pump (minus all the filter media) is for my peace of mind. 
Adding iron ferts is no problem at all I will gladly do that its just my indecisiveness that has stalled me in picking anything out. 
I looked into STS but decided against it. My GH is on the medium side and I dont really want to work through the instability it could cause or the fact that no to bags act the same way due to the variability in firing clay. So its something i am aware of and have a solution for its just a matter of me choosing my solution lol. 
Maybe i can set up a shrimp bowl to even consider a full non-mechnically oxygenated tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So the anaerobic soil issue is taken care of. I have had no more bubbles when poking that area and the guppy weed I planted in that corner is doing fine. I moved one of the Costata crypts into this tank and its taking off. The Pink Flamingo is in here as well. Almost all the little tiny leaves melted off but the roots were viable, healthy and showed new growth so i am hopeful.
I am going to try another betta. My LFS had a koi betta that caught my eye that was mostly white with blue and black on him. I have also thought about getting a black betta as blue has been the predominate color I have tried in the past. Both my LFS and PSP are scheduled to get more fish in today so I will see what they have. The koi betta at my LFS was very active, good body shape which is of course no guarantee but....
I would like to try breeding guppies but I just cant find the space and i am not sure of the breeding practices of the guppies from my LFS. Space is also why for now I am skipping any of the killies.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I looked into STS but decided against it. My GH is on the medium side and I dont really want to work through the instability it could cause or the fact that no to bags act the same way due to the variability in firing clay.


This is intriguing to me. I haven't measured my GH in over a year. I just always assumed my New York City water supply is soft and there's nothing I can do about it short of emptying a bag of sodium bicarbonate or calcium whatever every few months. Wonder Shells moved the needle a smidgen. Maybe my STS is less inert than I think?


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> I had no idea. I knew STS was a type of fired clay, but I never associated that with iron (makes sense to me now - North Carolina red clay -D'uh!) It might explain why I've never had a problem with floaters.


And specifically STS really is “fired clay”. It is NOT ceramic. That’s why it melts and dissolves slowly. Clay fired until it is ceramic can be about as inert and non-porous as hard rocks or even glass. If you consider porcelain, a fired clay product, has zero porosity like glass! STS is fired just until it keeps its form and doesn’t melt into muck or dust. It’s a unique product and unlike anything you’d find in nature.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> This is intriguing to me. I haven't measured my GH in over a year. I just always assumed my New York City water supply is soft and there's nothing I can do about it short of emptying a bag of sodium bicarbonate or calcium whatever every few months. Wonder Shells moved the needle a smidgen. Maybe my STS is less inert than I think?


I think STS is “inert” insofar that it is safe for cleaning up chemical spills and it _just so happens _to also be inert enough to be useful in the aquarium hobby 😂 Other than that I think STS has some hidden benefits due to its unique physical and chemical makeup. I think the size is perfect as a gravel cap for planted aquariums. It sinks but it’s small and “soft” enough to poke around and plant delicate roots in. My 1/4” quartz gravel is very tough and I have to be gentle when replanting stems. I don’t want to use it anymore.
Since STS was never intended to be an aquarium product I think we need to discover its potential. I paid $7. If the company that makes it ever figures it out that we’re using it for aquariums, I swear they’ll jack up the price 😭


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

FernKing said:


> I paid $7. If the company that makes it ever figures it out that we’re using it for aquariums, I swear they’ll jack up the price 😭


I pretty sure I've read @dwalstad comment she has a lifetime supply. I think we all do.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So got a new betta at my PSP store. My LFS had that koi white, blue and black plaket betta that had really caught my eye active, healthy looking but he was also $27. That was also where the gold colored betta was from and he had health issues almost immediately. My very first betta who also came from my PSP store and had lived the longest and I am wondering exactly how long that tiny corner of soil was anaerobic.

Anyway went to pick up cat food and came home with a fish everyone knows how that works lol. At this point I could go out to get something to fix the shower and somehow manage to come home with something fish related lmao😂 
So i ended up getting a black crowntail. Now my PSP store orderes in specific bettas, veiltails, crowntails, black orchids, koi, blue marbles, and dragonscales.
































He was not labeled as a Black Orchid just as a Crowntail. Brainstorming for a name now.

My phone is awful its like 6 years out of date and wasnt that great to begin with (quit dumping money into tanks and buy a new phone lol) so trying to get good pics of him has been a chore. I kept trying to get the iridescent colors on his sides and fins. It shifts from purple to silver. 

So i have black cats, a giant grey dog and a black fish keep the color theme going. 
Hopefully we fare better this time and i am continuing to poke that back corner of the tank until i am sure the plants roots have taken hold.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Nice. Keep up with the substrate poking once in a while to see.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Continue poking, but try to get some rooted plants growing in the back corner to aerate the soil.
If you ever have the inclination, breeding a pair of Bettas is fun and really interesting. Male builds a bubble nest, then mates and tends to the eggs. In tanks with a soil substrate, there's so much debris--stimulating bacteria and protozoa--that I raised ~25 babies without much effort in a 5 gal. If you are lucky and the male is not too aggressive, one female should do the trick. Of course, it helps if she is healthy, swollen with eggs and has a chance to get acquainted beforehand with the male.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I have continued poking the soil and it seems good so far. I stuck some rotala back there.
I would love to try and breed bettas but you have to keep them in separate tanks dont you? Also of course you need a lot of small grow out tanks for any males?








Tried to get some better pics of him but my phone camera is just worthless. 
















Hes stunning and the iridescence has really colored up. It flows between silvery blue and purple. Still have to think of name, hes a really bold fish. My cats come and touch the side of the tank and he has a total fit. Flares his fins and attacks the side of the glass. I stick my finger in the tank so the crushed up flake food will float and he comes up picks the food off my finger.
Still trying to brainstorm a name.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Good to hear there is no more stress to the betta.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So everyone is doing fine for the most part. Lost one of the tetras a few weeks ago. The other four are doing great. 
So is the betta who I have finally dubbed Inali.








He loves to squish himself under the crypts and wiggle around like some sort of puzzle game. 








Handsome boy. 

Pretty sure the anaerobic spot has resolved in the back corner of the tank. 
I transplanted a bunch of the rotala caterpillar in the corner cause that stuff is essentially taking over the tank. Forgot to get a full shot of the tank. 

Went to my pet store today and had to fight a impulse buy. Holy hell i am still fighting driving back over and picking up this betta. 








I am like one bad decision away from buying somerthing any thing to stick him in..... or a heater for my 36gal......... or something because i want that fish. 
Going to my LFS with me is like taking a 6 yaer old to Toys R Us ...... 0 impulse control with financial independence

The Floating Tiger frogbit is constantly in need of thinning. I am debating on making a listing on here if anyone would want any. I drop it off at my LFS but last time i was in they said no more for at least a month lmao. 

I keep looking at that betta........god i want that fish😂


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

That betta is a girl, I think. They are very personable. When I had them, during water changes, they always checked what I was doing and nibbled my arms.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> That betta is a girl, I think. They are very personable. When I had them, during water changes, they always checked what I was doing and nibbled my arms.


Really....... really.... i ask because i sent that pic to a friend of mine who was looking for a betta and despite my desire i do know when to walk away and thought this was a awesome fish who deserves a good home.
Any way at around 8:30 my doorbell rings open it and my friend is running back to her car screaming Merry Christmas and just ding-dong-ditched the betta on my front porch......... soooooo he/she is now sitting on my counter on a little heating pad tonight while I figure out what to do and remove someone from my friend list....

I have 2 options i guess....
1. Return her/him to the store.
2. Add to the community tank and abuse amazon primes 2 day delivery for a eheim heater

Now i thought he was a plakat mlae, but if the fish is actually a plakat female then could she possibly go in with Inali..... not the greatest solution but... maybe i could set up punch bowl on a heated pad.... or just be the responsible person and take her/him back to the store.

The container is just labeled dragonscale betta community egg layer.
I tried to take some more photos.
































Now i have been looking up differences between plakat males and females..... i am not quite sure if she is round enough for a female.... my only comparsion is the female bettas at my actual fish store and they all appeared to have pretty distinct distended abdomens almost pot bellies... but i am not sure how normal that is either.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Nice thought from your friend but surprise pets are a bad idea.
Dont put 2 bettas together. Always a violent situation. You can do a sorority but that’s a nerve racking event.

I look at the dorsal and anal fins to sex them. Females have smaller rounded fins. She probably haven’t been fed in a week so she doesn’t have a pot belly, and she’s young. Nice thick body though.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Nice thought from your friend but surprise pets are a bad idea.
> Dont put 2 bettas together. Always a violent situation. You can do a sorority but that’s a nerve racking event.
> 
> I look at the dorsal and anal fins to sex them. Females have smaller rounded fins. She probably haven’t been fed in a week so she doesn’t have a pot belly, and she’s young. Nice thick body though.


Yah it made for a pretty stressful evening ugh. I new truly that they couldnt go together but had read about some cases were betta and females were housed together past just breeding. Most likely lucky situations on the part of the bettas personality and much larger tanks the my tiny 3gal. 

So technically the responsible side of me says i need to take her back to the store because adding her into this fish household is a chellange.. the irrational side wants like hell to find a way to make this work. 
So either add her to my native tank which should not be a issue behavior wise i dont think just issues temp the 36gal holds pretty steady at 72° good temp but too cold for a betta. Maybe with flow as well the flow is probably stronger then what a betta would like. 
Or figure out a betta walsted bowl for her with a mini heater and no filter......... 
Appearently my friend had already found a new betta but she thought that fish was as cool as i did and decided that dumping her on me was the best solution since she knows i am a sucker.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Don’t you have that giant glass bowl? That could work.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Don’t you have that giant glass bowl? That could work.


I had a 3 gal glass that my cats broke and i thought i had a another bowl that was acrylic but i cant find it anywhere so i am thinking it must have been gotten rid of at some point.
I discussed getting a new glass bowl but never actually got one.
Went looking in the basement and found these two.








The cylinder one is a foot tall and 6in across so i figure its about 3 gals. 
I think i have a 1 or 2 gal tank in the attic from when i was like 6....... you know those little kits that they have a LFS for kids those type of tanks lol

I have 2 bunches if bamboo that i have been meaning to move. Maybe the tall cylinder would work but i am worried that its not enough surface space.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

5G tanks are pretty cheap. I've had my 5G dirt tank running for over a decade. No filter, only a heater. The substrate has doubled in height, all from poop and decayed plants, I guess. Get a cover, short fin bettas jump!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> 5G tanks are pretty cheap. I've had my 5G dirt tank running for over a decade. No filter, only a heater. The substrate has doubled in height, all from poop and decayed plants, I guess. Get a cover, short fin bettas jump!


Yes i know they are fairly affordable i just dont know where i could stick it space is big issue here. 
Thats sorta why i was looking at the tall cylinder or a bowl.... those i could possibly fit on the carousel base with the other plants and it would get light from the big living room windows......
I so want to find a way to make this work.... what sort of mini heater do you have in your 5 gal?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I have these low-wattage (5W-15W) heaters that are set to 78F, and nonadjustable. They last forever.
If you do a bowl, you can put a heating pad under it.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> I have these low-wattage (5W-15W) heaters that are set to 78F, and nonadjustable. They last forever.
> If you do a bowl, you can put a heating pad under it.


Thanks so much for trying to help me figure this out...

That was another thought i had with the heating pad.
According to some online calculators the tall cylinder i have is 2 gallons..... is that cylinder even a option or will its narrow diameter cause too many issue? 
I an going to see what i have hiding in the attic...
God i need new friends.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You'd want the biggest surface area possible.
My 5G sits above a stereo speaker  Get creative about where you can put the tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> You'd want the biggest surface area possible.
> My 5G sits above a stereo speaker  Get creative about where you can put the tank.


Fudge....... 6in is not a big surface area...... ok...... thinking cap time


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Top Fin® Round Fish Bowl | fish Aquariums | PetSmart


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Bit small then i would like to risk.
Currently looking at bowls and vases online to see who carries what. That sort of shape is going to be easier to fit into the house then a standard 5 gal tank.
So i am aiming for either a bowl or another cylinder that has a wider opening.
My local hobby lobby has 12" diamiter glass bowls 5" base 8" opening on sale for $11.

Also found another cylinder vase on amazon that is 10" tall with a 10" diameter which would put it at about 3 gals if its filled to the 9" mark. Its $29.95.
I have other home decor places that i could hit but i am working against the clock right now and dont have a lot of time to drive around like a crazy person.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The 12" diameter, cheap, sounds like a winner. Although it looks like thin glass, breaks easily.

I check their website or call. Saves on driving around


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> The 12" diameter, cheap, sounds like a winner. Although it looks like thin glass, breaks easily.
> 
> I check their website or call. Saves on driving around


Yes i had read about the thin glass on the 12" and it was a concern, reviews online had simular things.

Well was out running a few errands and to check put the 12" at hobby lobby and swung by my LFS first to show pictures of the fish and see if they had any suggestions.
Everyone there thought it was a male plaket but also all agreed that the body was very thick so it made it hard to tell.
They also had laying around a 3 different sized glass cylinders. A small medium and really large one.








I snatched up this one 8" diameter 9" tall they had $25 on but said it had been sitting around so long and im in there so much they would take $10 for it. The glass is about 4mm thick and clearly designed for aquarium use.

So thats one problem down..... now i just have the rest of the family letting me know just how Not Ok they are with another fish tank of any form in the house.... along with everything else i have to tackle to.... god i should make another journal for this whole fiasco tilted DONT GIFT PEOPLE FISH


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Getting another fish isn't as bad as getting another cat lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Getting another fish isn't as bad as getting another cat lol.


I will not tell you how many cats we have😅🙄..... we have two dogs too....
Space is the main issue along with outlets.... this house is really funky with outplacement makes stuff like placing a aquarium really challenging.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

One cat is three too many. 😂


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