# Could you please help me out?



## butacska (Mar 1, 2008)

Hi there  :wave:

I am in a planning stage of a 55g planted tank. Right now I have an aquarium with fish (guppies, orange glow tetras and a shy pleco) and a couple of plants (java fern, java moss, ludw. rep., floating riccia, a giant (amazon?) sword and hornwort) in it. My substrate is that common huge aquarium gavel, the bigger one.  ](*,) ¼ in to 3/8 size, from white through red till brown... you know which one I'm talking about. I don't want a high tech tank, the plan is: 2.8 wpg, no CO2 but excel, another substrate, lava rock and manz. wood hardscape, and nice plants that my fish and I can enjoy.

It sounds simple (probably it is) but now I have tons of questions hoping you would answer them  rayer:

First of all if I rescape my tank, save the sponge filter (running) during "construction" and about 50% of the old water goes back to the tank but change the substrate completely, will my tank cycle again? I really don't want to loose my fish due to high ammonia and nitrite concentrations. But I have only one tank, so I don't have too many options.

2. I am on a tight budget. I bought 20 lbs of Schultz Aquatic Plant soil&#8230; I thought I would put it underneath the gravel, but noooo. The more I look at that ugly gravel the least I like it. So I would buy a bag (20lbs) of eco-complete, but 40lbs wouldn't be enough, would it? (48" x 12") Is there any inexpensive solution? Is silica sand an option? Is SAPS only an option? Is 30lbs SAPS plus 20 lbs eco an option?

3. I would like to have some foreground plant as a carpet. Not a big area, probably a 6x6. What would work? Glosso? I don't think it would spread. Riccia? My floating is doing good but the tank is 18 deep, so without CO2&#8230; HC? I WISH, I live it, it looks so beautiful in your tanks, guys, but the same here: lack of CO2. I would dose excel, but what is that enough for with 2.8 wpg? I don't want a speed growing tank, just one that we (my hubby and me) and the fish can enjoy.

4. What plant can I use that grows 14-16 in high and it can form a bush? Would my ludwigia do that? My new lights should arrive tomorrow, so right now it is under 1.5 wpg, and it is only a week old in my tank. Beautiful though.  I bought it here, from a member 

5. Plant buying. Should I keep an eye on the For Sale and trade forum and wait for the plants I want and buy them one by one, toss them in the tank until I have everything and plant together, or should I order them online> Where from?
http://www.aquariumplants.com/
http://bayleesfishees.com/catalog/index.php
http://www.liveaquaria.com/

So as I said, tons of questions  If you have time and energy, could you please answer my questions and help me out?
Thank you in advance,
Maria


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Hey Maria, let me see if I can answer some of your questions.



> First of all if I rescape my tank, save the sponge filter (running) during "construction" and about 50% of the old water goes back to the tank but change the substrate completely, will my tank cycle again? I really don't want to loose my fish due to high ammonia and nitrite concentrations. But I have only one tank, so I don't have too many options.


Your tank should not undergo a whole re-cycling here with these conditions, imo. Anyways if you plant heavy from the start, cycling is typically not a problem because the plants will use whatever NH3 is released.



> 2. I am on a tight budget. I bought 20 lbs of Schultz Aquatic Plant soil&#8230; I thought I would put it underneath the gravel, but noooo. The more I look at that ugly gravel the least I like it. So I would buy a bag (20lbs) of eco-complete, but 40lbs wouldn't be enough, would it? (48" x 12") Is there any inexpensive solution? Is silica sand an option? Is SAPS only an option? Is 30lbs SAPS plus 20 lbs eco an option?


I don't blame you, sounds like it's ugly gravel. I have never used SAP, so can't really comment on that. Regarding the Eco, folks have mixed it with Tahitian Moon sand, which I believe resembles Eco somewhat. Keep in mind most of your plants will be feeding through the water column if you provide ferts for them there. You don't have to spend a fortune on substrates. Just make sure you don't get large sized gravel, you want plants to root and be held in the sub.



> 3. I would like to have some foreground plant as a carpet. Not a big area, probably a 6x6. What would work? Glosso? I don't think it would spread. Riccia? My floating is doing good but the tank is 18 deep, so without CO2&#8230; HC? I WISH, I live it, it looks so beautiful in your tanks, guys, but the same here: lack of CO2. I would dose excel, but what is that enough for with 2.8 wpg? I don't want a speed growing tank, just one that we (my hubby and me) and the fish can enjoy.


You can grow HC without CO2 (use Excel), I don't think glosso will thrive in your conditions, though. You can also look at other foreground alternatives such as Marsilea, H. micranthemoides (pearlweed) and Elatine triandra. These latter 2 will require trimming to keep them low, but they do form nice sods.



> 4. What plant can I use that grows 14-16 in high and it can form a bush? Would my ludwigia do that? My new lights should arrive tomorrow, so right now it is under 1.5 wpg, and it is only a week old in my tank. Beautiful though. I bought it here, from a member


Most stem plants will get bushy if pruned properly and given appropriate conditions. If you want a lower tech/light approach why not look at some Crypt wendtii's? In time they will get thick and tall and not require much maintenance.



> 5. Plant buying. Should I keep an eye on the For Sale and trade forum and wait for the plants I want and buy them one by one, toss them in the tank until I have everything and plant together, or should I order them online> Where from?


Your call on that one. In the F/S forum here you can usually find excellent quality and price, but you have to be willing to buy piece-meal. Check out our sponsors for plant vendors.

Hope that helps.


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

Maria,

I am new to the hobby also and I had many of the same questions that you have. Here are some of the answers I have come up with.

I bought aquariumplants.com own substrate. It is working really well for me. It is like 45 dollars for a container that will perfectly suit a 55 gallon. Gives about 3in of depth. The shipping hurts but it is less than all the eco you would need to buy.

Ludwigia and Rotala are great and they are becoming very bushy in my tank right now. They will need to be trimmed but can do well. I agree with Bert that Wendtii is a good way to go, mine has tripled in size in 5 weeks. 

HC so far has been extremely dificult in my tank. Hopefully if you choose this it will do better in yours. I am very jealous of the pics that I see on the forum.

I think that with 2.8w per gallon you might want to think about at least some CO2 addition but Excel works for a lot of people here. I am saving up for a pressurized system but am using DIY CO2 from Red Sea by injecting into the intake of the pump that is included. Also there is a large size for tanks from 40 to 120 gallons that may work better.

As far as buying plants IME this is the best place to go. If you keep checking the F/S forum there is a good chance that within a week or week and a half you can buy and plant any species you decide on.

I hope this helps.

Jorge


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## butacska (Mar 1, 2008)

Thank you guys

I ordered a bag of Eco C., and bought one more bag of SAPS. So I'll have 30lbs of Schultz Aquatic plant soil and 20 lbs Eco-complete. As I researched the aquariumplants.com substrate: it is SMS (Soil Master Select), almost the same thing as my Schultz APS. And as I'd already had 2 bags of SAPS, I passed on that big bucket, but thanks for the idea
As I know I have to rinse the SAPA but not the eco. Should I layer them (SAPS underneath the ECO, ) or mix them?
I am trying to put the plant list together, and so far I am missing a couple of background plants.

Foreground:
HC (I am going to try this so 1 pot of this)
Microsword (already have 1 pot)
Sagittaria Subulata
Lobelia Cardinalis (not sure yet)

Midground:
Anubias bateri (I have 1 plant with 10 leaves already)
Java fern (I have this as well)
Hygrophila difformis - Wisteria 
Helianthus micranthemoides (I like this plant, never had it, but looks really nice)
Blixia japonica (Not sure yet)


Background:
Ludwigia arcuata (I already have 1 plant with 12-14 stems)
Cryptocoryne Wendtii
Rotala rotundifolia 
????

Floating:
Riccia (I have this floating and growing  already)
Plus Java Moss

Can you suggest a couple of background plants for me? Again, I'll have 55g, 2.8 wpg and Excel.
Also how many (more) do I need of the plants above?
Do you think the plant list is OK? Too many kind? 

Thanks again 
Maria


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## butacska (Mar 1, 2008)

rayer::bump:


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

My suggestion is to reduce the number of different plants you are planning to use. That way you can learn more about each plant, then replace it if you find another later that interests you more. Most of the plants you should be starting with will grow much, much bigger in the tank, so having so many different ones usually results in the slower growing ones getting hidden and smothered by the faster growing ones.

Some specifics: Hygro difformis is not a great midground plant. It can grow very big, both tall and wide. Or it can decide to be a carpet plant and cover the whole substrate. It is a great starter plant, being the archetype of a "fast growing stem plant".
Foreground plants look best with only one or two types, not with a variety. Small form Lobelia cardinalis is a great, but slow growing plant, that slowly grows to 6" - 8" tall, so it is more of a mid ground plant. HC is a bear to plant when the tank has water in it - it should be planted in groups of just a few plantlets, not a whole pot at once. That takes a long time when the tank has no water in it, but it takes forever if the tank is full of water.
Microswords have been a problem when I plant them. Either they have been algae magnets or they are reluctant to grow. Others, I know, have had success with them.
For a background, small leaf plants give more of a feeling of depth to the tank - your eyes interpret the small leaves as being farther away. Rotala species green and the other small leaf varieties of Rotala are good choices.
For the foreground, consider Hygro Porto Velho, if you can find someone here selling it. It is easy to plant, grows pretty fast, and stays very low. Also, look at the aquatic "four leaf clover" plant, whose name escapes me at the moment. It is easy to plant and grow.


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

If you are looking for a nice background plant try Limnophila aromatica. Really beautiful color and great leaf shape. Also I have an area OF Sag. subulata in the foreground and it works really well. Not a carpet plant but it gives a really nice area for baby fish and shrimplets to live when it fills in. You just have to be on top of it because it kinda runs wild when it's growing well. It is 3 to 4 inches tall in my tank right now.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Maria, keep in mind the footprint of a 55 is one of the hardest to scape and have the sense of depth you want to. It's a narrow tank, and will be difficult to have well defined foreground, midground and background areas. I agree with Hoppy in his suggestions to not use too many different types of plants to start with. Learn to grow healthy plants first, then start getting fancy and trying the other ones you might want to have as 'keepers'.


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## tjc (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm growning several types of plants till I figure out which ones I grow well and I like. I'm not worried about landscaping yet.

You have a tall aquarium, so you're going to need that 2.8 wpg to get light towards the bottom of the tank to grow foreground plants. I'm using two, 96 watt bulbs on my aquarium that is 2 inches taller than yours.

I'm growning HC in two aquariums, one with injected CO2, and one without. Right now the HC in the non CO2 aquarium is out-pacing the HC in the CO2 injected aquarium, this after two weeks of having the HC. Heck, try it and see. HC is one of those plants that often takes time to adjust to an aquarium before it takes off. Consider using Flourish Excel as a supplement for CO2.

I've always had great luck with Rotala and Ludwigia and I highly recommend them. I'm growing 4 types of crypts right now and they are all doing well. My Lobelia has lost all it's purple leaves but replace them with nice looking green leaves. Anubias is a super plant especially in large groups. I'm growing Anubias nana petite right now and it's fantastic. A great background plant that doesn't require CO2, Aponogetons. I'm growing A. ulvaceaous and A. crispus. They are some of the most beautiful tall plants you can grow. They flower like made also. A nice, easy foreground plant would be Lilaeopsis brasiliensis. I don't think that requires much in the way of CO2.


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## butacska (Mar 1, 2008)

Thank you sooooooo much guys You helped a lot.rayer:

So (hopefully) the final plant list is:
Foreground:
Marsilea quadrifolia
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis

Mid/back
Sagittaria subulata
Lobelia cardinalis
Anubias nana (not baterii as I thought first)
Java fern
Hemianthus micanthomoides
Ludwigia arcuata
Myrophillum Aquaticum
Hygrophila Difformis
And of course I won't throw away my floating riccia and my java moss.

I'll give a try to HC later.

I know that 55 is a really "bad" tank to scape. And as I know that I don't really have the talent for things like this (design), I am just going to try to put the plants in and hope itwill survive and they won't look ugly  I don't even dare to try "copy" what people are doing here. You guys are fantastic rayer:, and I am just a beginner with a VERY black thumb  
Right know my goal is to get rid of that ugly, unuseful gravel and the background (I would like to have a blue one, not the one with the plants on it what I have now), and put some plants in, that my fish like 
Also a question:
Bio filter... As I started my tank without ANY live plants, I put a bio wheel AND a sponge filter in. Now as I'm going to change the whole substrate, I am going to put the sponge filter back as I don't want my tank to cycle again. The plants are not as MANY as in a heavily planted tank... I can't drop the biofilter completely. I am going to save most of the water also. Can I get rid of the biowheel?

Eco-complete will arrive on thur. ... Will I need to put the "juice" (or whatever it comes with) or should I rinse it. It is only 20 lbs for the 55g. The rest is that SAPS, that I already rinsed out nicely. (huh, it took me a while) 

So I'll have Excel and Seachem Fluorish. Can I buy the TetraPlant (or what) fertilizer from petco that has Iron and Potassium and it is phosphate free?
I don't have tests yet (other than the basic ammonia/nitrate/nitrite/ph test), I'll save that spending for later  


Thank you guys again
And sorry for my English , I am from Hungary originally and still learning


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

You do not want to use a bio wheel because you'll out gas any CO2 you might have, otherwise the filter will be fine. Sponges and any other bio-media won't do any harm.

I don't know what to do with the liquid in the Eco bag when you're adding it to an established tank. That's a good question - hopefully someone will answer.



> So I'll have Excel and Seachem Fluorish. Can I buy the TetraPlant (or what) fertilizer from petco that has Iron and Potassium and it is phosphate free?


Plants need phosphate, along with the other nutrients. I suggest you do some reading on fertilization. Check out these 2 links for good info:
http://www.rexgrigg.com/ferts.htm
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/index.html


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## butacska (Mar 1, 2008)

*Re: Could you please help me out? Received plants...*

Hello Guys, I need your help again.

I received my plants that I ordered. So far, I don't want to tell you where they came from, first I need your opinion.
Right know I am a little bit angry and disappointed and I need to know if iam right or not....
Ordered:
4 Sagittaria subulata dwarf
1 potted baby tears (Hemianthus micranthemoides)
2 potter Marsilea Quadriforlia (for foreground plant)
1 wisteria (Hygrophilia difformis)
1 Cardinal plant (Lobelia cardinalis)
1Parrot's Feather (Myrophyllum aquaticum)

Well I am not satisfied...
Here is what i got
1. First of all, my biggest problem...the *wisteria*:








I don't think that this is wisteria, is it??????

2. The dwarf sag... Is the dwarf sag supposed to be 8 inches??:









3: Marsilea.... It is huge! I am sooo sad, i wanted this as foreground plant and they happen to be almost 8 in..  How big is the Marsilea quardifolia???:









4. Myrophyllum: I don't know... It seems yellow...









5-6 The Baby tears and the cardinal plant look OK

















Please tell me what you think! And what should I do??? I ordered 2 foreground plants, and both of them are 8 inches high... Now I don't have foregroung plant :evil: I was planning to do the substrate change and planting tomorrow... :evil::evil:


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

1. The H. difformis is an emersed grown plant, with typical emersed leaf shape.
2. "Dwarf sag", Sagittaria subulata is a 4 - 6" tall plant, which those are.
3. Marsilea quadrafolia is usually sold as an emersed grown plant, which those are. It is a creeping plant on the substrate only if it is planted and grown correctly to produce that form.
4. I know nothing about.

I'm not sure you got a bad deal. The "baby tears" can be grown very well as a carpet plant. And, if you plant the "4 leaf clover" plants as a carpet plant, they should grow submersed leaves and work fine as such.


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## butacska (Mar 1, 2008)

Hoppycalif, thank you. I am OK with the plants now, I was just shocked about the plants because of the lack of my knowledge. I had no Idea, that the wisteria can be grown emersed at all. I read a lot about HC/glosso/hairgrass being grown emersed, but never read about wisteria. It is amazing how different the plant looks when grown emersed or submersed.
The Marsilea is huge, I should be happy, huh? Technically now I am. I'll do my planting on monday, thanks for your answer.
Maria


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Don't worry about the Marsilea. It will begin to grown horizontal. Mine is forming a nice carpet which looks like dark glosso. 

Plant #4 is parrot feather which is a Myrophyllum. It should not have been yellow, but probably will recover. That also is the emersed growth. You will get long lanky green growth. It grows VERY fast. Many people don't like it as a submersed growth plant. 

Good luck with your planting!


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