# Window Vista Sucks Big Time



## southernflounder

I just bought a new computer w/ Vista as the os. Well it looks nice and all, Vista that is, but it's a pita to use. The laser printer that i have cannot be used w/ it since the driver won't work w/ Vista. The use of it is a pain b/c of the redundancy of it always asking if you're sure you want to perform a certain function, pretty much like that Apple commercial.

The first time i used it i had a heck of a time finding the "off" button. I can rant on and on but my fingers are tired......

Has anyone else used Vista? What's your opinion?

I'm going back to XP!


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## splatt3

as for your printer problem:

go to the printer's company website and download your model's vista patch. you have to do that inorder for your pinter to successfully install and work.

on the pop up problem:
good luck on that. try to find how to turn it off on the help menu but that totally beats the purpose of the security. there is an option to turn off the pop ups on certain programs. i'm still trying to figure out mine. if you find out how to fix it, give me a buzz.


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## Burks

southernflounder said:


> What's your opinion?
> 
> I'm going back to XP!


Well it sucks enough for Microsoft to announce a new OS coming in 2009. Even they think it sucks.

I want to go back to 98......


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## southernflounder

splatt3, i only wish it was easy as you say. Other peripherals that I'm using such as a DVR does not have or plan to have the Vista patch.


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## bijoon

*cough* linux *cough*


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## Laith

southernflounder said:


> ... The use of it is a pain b/c of the redundancy of it always asking if you're sure you want to perform a certain function, pretty much like that Apple commercial.
> 
> ...


Please tell me that this can be turned off somehow?  Even in the Apple ad it says that it can be turned off...

I'm buying a new computer soon and really really don't want or need this type of OS "watchdog". What a waste of time and efficiency it would be! 

If it can't be turned off, I may just start looking at a Mac. I like the Mac but some applications I use either don't exist on the Mac or I'd have to buy new Mac versions.

On a similar topic linked to security, I am always puzzled by why there is such a huge fuss. I've been running PCs for years and years and have never had a virus nor a security breach. It's simple:

- Install a good anti-virus program and keep it updated regularly.
- Get a good firewall program and make sure it's running all the time.

Do that many people NOT run anti-virus programs/firewalls? If they don't, why blame the operating system when you are in effect failing to lock your doors?


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## Bert H

Well, I guess I won't be in a hurry to change out my old XP.


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## argblarg

I like my XP and don't want to have to buy an extra gig of RAM to go to Vista. I even got a free copy in the mail for watching a seminar that I probably won't use for a long time. 

Apparently the media center stuff is great though. 

The "Hi I'm a Mac and I'm much cooler than this here nerdy PC" commercials make me laugh when people bring that attitude into an office environment where Macs can't run most of our software and can't be upgraded since everything is built in.


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## goalcreas

Well, I had been shopping for a new computer latley and decided to go ahead and just buy pieces and build again, because it got really, really hard to find a computer with XP on it and I didn't want VISTA at all.
Now that I here the complanits I am certain that I did the right thing.
I just got all the parts from NewEgg yesterday, so this weekend will be making the new machine. It should be a smoker, at least next to what it is replacing, that was built in summer of 2001, I am replacing an AMD K62 or K7, can't remember, 1.13 gig with an Intel 2 duo e6400 2.13 and stepping up to 2 gigs of corsair DDR2 800 mem and a Radion X1950pro 256 meg video card. Oh and stepping up from a CDR to a DVD R with lightscribe, but I hear that feature is a pain in the Arse. 74 gig WD raptor hard drive and a full Antec tower w/500 watt power supply for under $1200 shipped. Not bad
And of course I am staying with Windows XP Pro not Vista.


I had one machine at Best Buy with 256 video card and a 1.18 cpu with XP media center and the same machine with a 512 video card and slightly faster CPU running performance tests and the machine with Vista bogged where the machine with XP (smaller video card and slower CPU) was keeping the pace and in the really trying times was outperforming the bigger one.
That vista is a memmory killer.


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## Burks

goalcreas said:


> That vista is a memmory killer.


Yes it is. As if modern computers weren't beating the hell out of the hardware as it is, Vista is going to make it worse. Everything will have to work that much harder to perform.

Sorry but screen doesn't need to "look pretty" and all that crap. All I care about is if my games run smooth. Computers are expensive enough, replacing parts sucks.


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## Muirner

Did anyone expect anything less from Microsoft? When was the last time in the past OS's that they have delivered what they promised? They SWORE that this OS would be the end all be all of the OS market, but what did we find out? It's no good. I said it with XP and I'll say it with Vista. I'm not upgrading until i have to. Once they patch all the mess-ups then I'll maybe MAYBE look at it. As I see it, I'll only load Vista if Microsoft gives me a free serial # just like they did for XP and XP Pro.

Hopefully people open their eyes and see that this upgrade isnt worth it. The sad part is that most people have heard of Vista and are determined to get it. I thinkt he only people who dont want the switch over are IT people and Computer "nerds" (yes I do fall here).

Goal - You will find that Lightscribe is SWEET! if you have the time for it. I hear it takes a LONG time to get a great image on your CD.


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## goalcreas

Glad to hear that Lightscribe can be sweet, I got it because it was like $2 more then the version with out it and it is a great concept, even if it is so/so right now, with the PITA factor verses the coolness of it, it will one day be a standard.
BTW I am still going to put my Plexwriter CDR from the old tower into this comp


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## Yzfr6

*How to Turn off the Annoying "Need your permission Option*

In Control Panel, go to the Security Center. On the left hand side, click the "Change the way Security Center alerts me" and choose "Don't notify me and don't display the icon.


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## fishtastico

I would NEVER install that piece of crap "phone-home-ware" on any computer in my care. I have been building my own PC's for years, and will continue to do so (and will keep installing XP on them until I can no longer get away with it)

I also have no intention of installing IE7 on my computer anytime soon.

My real hope is to be able to afford an Apple laptop at some point in the future.


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## Laith

sshockey said:


> In Control Panel, go to the Security Center. On the left hand side, click the "Change the way Security Center alerts me" and choose "Don't notify me and don't display the icon.


Well that's a relief!


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## gnatster

I have Vista on a Laptop and I like it. 

There I said it.

However there is a one caveat, it's a big one. 

The laptop was purchased for business use. I've been doing some small contact writing gigs and needed the laptop so I can swoop in, join a network, write the text and then leave. It's a Toshiba built for have Vista on it. I added mo memory to bring it to 4gig and use a 4 gig flash drive as temp swap space. I pretty much only use Office 07's Word, Excel, Visio, Project, Outlook and IE. For my application Vista works well. 

I'll not be putting it on my home desktop even though it could handle the load. 

Oh,and Vista looks spiffy as well.


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## JanS

I've heard lots of bad reports on Vista too from the tech boards, and from people who have it, they've tried to download a patch for certain hardware (like a printer) and get a message that the patch won't be available until April, or something like that.

XP has been around for quite some time, so that must say something about it's functionality. Remember ME or 2000? They sure didn't last long, and if they're already talking about a new OS in 2009, that doesn't seem like a very big vote of confidence for Vista either.


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## houseofcards

Wow, all this doom and gloom about Vista. I just took delivery of a new vista laptop and so far so good after 3 days. It was one of these grand opening specials for under $500. I thought it was a misprint, but it was true. Under $500 for a Compaq. I did upgrade to Vista Premium after the salesman told me many of the bugs were assoicated with Vista Basic. Anyone after reading Gnatser post with the 4 gig, I'm alittle nervous now with my wimpy 1 gig.


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## Muirner

Gnatster has an abundance of RAM for that. Seeing how he has physically 4GB and a 4 gig swap file, that's overly enough. If you have 1 Gig of some good ram you should be all set until you start to really load it up.


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## Jason Baliban

Just pulled it off my new laptop. 

....600MB+ of RAM just to run the desktop. What an insult.

jB


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## summitwynds

argblarg said:


> The "Hi I'm a Mac and I'm much cooler than this here nerdy PC" commercials make me laugh when people bring that attitude into an office environment where Macs can't run most of our software and can't be upgraded since everything is built in.


That is a very common misconception about Macs. They can be upgraded very easily (Mac Pro and Macbook Pros especially). Also, with the new Intel Macs and a program called Parallels; Windows and other Windows based software can be run on a Mac (if you want to). I have found all the software I would ever need to run on Mac OSX, so I didn't install any Windows software on my Macs. And you can't beat the lack of viruses. I switched about 10 years ago and would never go back to Windows. Macs have really changed alot in the past 10 years (thanks a lot to Mac OS X) and anyone considering a new computer should take a good hard look at them.


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## Burks

Jason Baliban said:


> Just pulled it off my new laptop.
> 
> ....600MB+ of RAM just to run the desktop. What an insult.
> 
> jB


That's my biggest problem. 3x what it takes to run XP on my computer. That's just an insane amount needed as most people who have not purchased computers lately still have 512MB-1GB of RAM.


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## jassar

wow, I was thinking of upgrading my pc to Vista, but I know I must wait and see what happenes. 
I'm sticking with XP for now....


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## Burks

I have a question for those of you who actually upgraded from XP to Vista.

Why did you do it? Is it worth the time, effort, and money to do so? What were the big improvements for you?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why some say Vista is so much better than XP.


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## gnatster

Muirner said:


> Gnatster has an abundance of RAM for that. Seeing how he has physically 4GB and a 4 gig swap file, that's overly enough. If you have 1 Gig of some good ram you should be all set until you start to really load it up.


I'm working with some HUGE graphics and publication type files. College Text type material with embedded graphics, charts, excel files and visio charts. My application is in no way typical of an end user.


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## splatt3

vista is more for computers who can handle the load. don't install vista if your computer is an old p.o.c. or has less than 1gb of RAM. well, maybe 512mb still can handle it but your computer is going work much harder. your cpu better not be a whimpy one or you'll be waiting and waiting for a long time to load up your program. it is built more on dual core processors with at least 2.0 GHz. you can still use a cpu that is less than 2.0ghz single core w/out any problem but computer will work harder if you have multiple programs running. graphics card has to be good to benefit from windows aero. 
as for me, i have a vista laptop but rarely uses it. i prefer using my xp desktop. i just install norton internet security and keep it updated, make sure my xp OS is up to date also and bam! i'm good to go. i don't have to worry about all that crap with viruses. i'm suprise that people don't use the update program on windows and not update their anti-virus programs. they think that it's working just because it's installed. it won't work unless you update that darn thing.


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## jassar

splatt3 said:


> i'm suprise that people don't use the update program on windows and not update their anti-virus programs. they think that it's working just because it's installed. it won't work unless you update that darn thing.


I totally agree with that. And I will say it again to make it clear: Vista works good on 64 bit processors and is NOT meant to be used on 32 bit PCs.
Another thing, I really hope they fix the drivers issue...


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## JanS

splatt3 said:


> i'm suprise that people don't use the update program on windows and not update their anti-virus programs. they think that it's working just because it's installed. it won't work unless you update that darn thing.


Exactly! I can't believe how many people think that because they have it on their computer, they are protected to the hilt. I just upgraded all 3 computers I use to NIS 2007, and always keep it updated. I also check for updates one per week for things like Spybot S & D and Adaware, and you'd be surprised how quickly it can change. Of course the hackers aren't going to keep trying on stuff that's already recognized, so they come out with new stuff constantly, and we have to stay on top of that.


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## Troy McClure

bijoon said:


> *cough* linux *cough*


This just reminded me of the Mac commercial spoofs.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=mac+spoof&hl=en

I got a chance to use Vista this past Thanksgiving. I wasn't impressed. It's XP with a clock, a calendar, and some other crap to the desktop. Wow. Good job Microsoft. I'll just go right out and spend $1500 on a computer that can run those super sweet extra features...

I'm content with XP Pro + StyleXP.


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## jaidexl

sshockey said:


> In Control Panel, go to the Security Center. On the left hand side, click the "Change the way Security Center alerts me" and choose "Don't notify me and don't display the icon.


Thanks, sshockey, that was one of the next ones on my list to learn. I'm with vaio support, can you believe they've only put three vista machines on our floor so far? Talk about children fighting over toys, and the calls keep rolling in from the impulse buyers that don't know the difference between windows and office. Of course , they hate the OEMs for OS problems and their own lack of research, or for selling a product that harbors such a POS. It's funny how MS monopolized their position as far as support goes, they market their way to being installed on every pc from the factory, then won't help you for squat if you didn't buy a retail OS directly from them. Your ISP sends you to MS, then MS sends you to Sony, Dell etc, then we have to reluctantly do someone else's job for them. :doh:

To anyone in the market, don't go there, unless you're into super media center, flash website type experiences rather than clean, sturdy, efficient pieces of software. You can find a lot of XP machines still being sold at all OEM's outlets as refurbs and clearance items.


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## houseofcards

It's funny because many aren't in love with MS products, me being one of them, but don't blame MS blame Apple. If apple would have licensed their software originally to other OEMs, 98% of the world would be using apples instead of the other way around. They certainly had smarter business people than product. I give Jobs alot of credit. What a comeback with pixar and ipod.


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## bharada

Why is there such an uproar when a 1.0 release of an OS doesn't meet everyone's expectations? And why is it always a Microsoft issue?

I remember upgrading my creative team's Macs from OS 9.2 to the initial release of OS X. The G3 Powerbooks were shelved since they were unable to run the new OS, and the G4 PowerMacs had to have their RAM doubled to perform at the same level as they did with 9.2. And don't get me started on what fun it was running my 'legacy apps' in a 9.2 session under OS X.

Software advancements drive hardware advancements. Always has in the PC marketplace. Just as it's always a good idea to avoid any 1.0 OS release. Besides, the whole Mac vs PC debate became a moot point for me the day Adobe began concurrent releasing their apps on both platforms. I mean, I'm as much for a pretty UI as the next guy, but I use a PC (Mac or Windows) to run apps, not play with the OS.


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## JanS

jaidexl said:


> You can find a lot of XP machines still being sold at all OEM's outlets as refurbs and clearance items.


Boy, I didn't realize that Vista would dominate like that, but I know a few different people looking to buy new computers, and they called places like Dell, Best Buy and every other place, and they told them they *can not* sell them a system with XP anymore, and that you have to take Vista.  
I'll have to mention the outlets to see if they might find something there.

One question that everyone is wondering - if you're forced to buy the system with Vista; can you buy an XP disc from a place like E-bay and do a clean install with it? Or would that be considered a downgrade that wouldn't work with Microsoft?


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## turbomkt

Usually licenses are backward friendly, at least with Pro versions. Basically, if I bought a computer with Vista Business but needed XP Pro due to company network requirements, I can contact MS to get a product key for XP Pro at no charge.


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## Pyro

Being a stereotypical college student, I decided that the $95 or whatever it is to upgrade to Vista isn't worth it. XP is doing great for me, and all Vista boasts is some extra eyecandy from what I can see.


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## goalcreas

Well I just built my new system strictly for the fact that I couldn't get any of the places that Jan S mentioned and a few others to sell me a system with XP.
I am way happier, It was more work then I wanted, but this is a way better top line system then what I would have bought and it xost a few hundred less anyway.
There are still online, build your own system stores that you can still get XP at. one is www.cyberpowerpc.com and I am sure there are many others, but they are still there, you just have to look for them. And I am sure they are the ones that don't have specific liscensing agreements with MS


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## gabeszone

I bought Vista and I love it and all my stuff works fine with it. I just had to download the new drivers. I would say the new OS is more user friendly, and my Internet seems to run better using Vista over my old xp. Internet Download speed 100mb, upload 100mb I'm using Light optic cables. Computer specs. Nvidia 7800gtx 256mb Video card, 2gb OZC mem, HD 150gb. AMD dual 3800+. The bad thing is the Excel, Office wont work.


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## jaidexl

JanS said:


> if you're forced to buy the system with Vista; can you buy an XP disc from a place like E-bay and do a clean install with it? Or would that be considered a downgrade that wouldn't work with Microsoft?


One of the main problems you'll run into, at least for a while, is finding XP compatible drivers to replace the ones that are vista configured, and if you have a sony, which are majorly PITA proprietary, this will be a big headache. They reconfigure alot of them, so the originals from nvidia, intel etc might not work, and the word on whether backwards migration drivers will be posted on sony's support site was "maybe" when I asked last week. Then I heard "sometime in the future...". People are already calling in asking me to how to find them and I'm having to send them on a wild non-sony-supported goose chase through the drivers of similar models to try and make things copasetic for awhile (new vista machines have new model numbs even if they're essentially the same config as older models, each model has it's own list of drivers on the site). I could help them match specs to a short extend, but clean installs aren't supported in warranty or out, so I have to eventually say, "adios, have fun a week pal" while the call monitors mark my grade for following policy. But in alot of cases with other pc manufacturers, you _should_ be able to grab the XP drivers on your hardware manufacturer's sites.


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## Jimbo205

I love my Dell Dimension 8300 Series Desktop computer which I designed with the help of Dan Gookin's book: Buying a Computer for Dummies - 2004 Edition. (The fun and easy way to find the computer that's perfect for you. A Reference for the Rest of Us!) I read this book over, and over, and over again carefully planning what I wanted and what I did not. 

After 2-3 years I brought my spec to the local computer store to see what I might do to get the most bang for my buck with upgrades. After one positive comment from the staff person there, I decided that I guess I got a good computer to begin with. (Dan Gookin's point to his book.) I can still upgrade if I want to. I just have not needed to yet. 

I loved this book so much that as soon as his newest book: Laptops for Dummies 2nd Edition came out this year, I reserved it at the bookstore 3 days before it was released. 

I highly recommend this author if you are just a regular computer user that needs to sort through all the latest. 

I will say though, that after my last purchase that if I purchase from Dell again, I do not want the Operating System installed ahead of time. I'll purchase it retail instead. When I need help, I want Microsoft to help me. Not Dell, thank you anyway.... (Save 1,000 hours waiting on hold or listening to someone who doesn't know anymore than me about the product.)

Of course, maybe my next computer will be a Mac. Maybe the Mac mini. I do wish their marketing campaign was MORE aggressive. (I like their ads!)

For those that have a computer that came with XP; DO NOT CHANGE YOUR OPERATING SYSTEM. 

Dan Gookin says in his books - the computer, motherboard and CPU are DESIGNED for the Operating System your computer came with. 

You don't take the engine of a Mustang and put it in a Honda. Just won't work. 

If you want Vista, buy a computer designed to use it. And purchase a good book - maybe by Dan Gookin. Might help you as you scream at your computer at the top of your lungs..... 

(By the way, I love all the posts on this thread. Great read!)


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## jaidexl

Jimbo205 said:


> I love my Dell Dimension 8300 Series Desktop computer which I designed with the help of Dan Gookin's book: Buying a Computer for Dummies - 2004 Edition.


Years ago, I went with a dell 4600 off the suggestion of a old computer nerd I knew who complimented their construction. I knew enough then to configure it with decent hardware. I've upgraded alot since then, 1G of ram, two sound cards in it now, one with an interface, it still works like a charm with it's 2.8ghz pentium4, hasn't given me any reason to upgrade. And all the software I've spent so much money on in the past five years is why I won't be runnning out to get vista any time soon.


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## Freemann

Os is just a shell for me and what matters is stability and as low as possible memory footage and this is what I was striving all the time, XP is rock steady here for ever, there is a base of utilities, advice on line to support any conceivable problem that may arise, there are light versions around on line that take 50% less memory space than the full versions, drivers, tweaks for everything, so why should I upgrade as long as programs run on it and HDTV plays fine? (it is the only thing that could make me upgrade the hardware at least). I hate this trap, upgrade for no reason, but to make us richer anyway.


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## tommyr

I ditched Windows at home 8 years ago and never looked back. I run a Mac mini, a Macbook and also use Linux for fun. Check out Linux Mint, it even runs videos right off the bat from the Live CD. I LOVE live CDs!

The latest Knoppix if fairly good too but right now I prefer Linux Mint. 

Tom


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## Jimbo205

I am always surprised that the Mac Minis have not caught on more than I thought they would. 

I mean, who doesn't have a keyboard, mouse and a screen? 

Maybe someday we will all have Macs.


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## tommyr

Jimbo205 said:


> I am always surprised that the Mac Minis have not caught on more than I thought they would.


Probably due to the limited upgrade possibilities. Also it's not your conventional looking PC!

Tom


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## houseofcards

Jimbo205 said:


> I am always surprised that the Mac Minis have not caught on more than I thought they would.
> 
> I mean, who doesn't have a keyboard, mouse and a screen?
> 
> Maybe someday we will all have Macs.


Well Mr. Jobs missed that boat a long time ago when he didn't license mac software and Mr. Gates licensed IBM. I think he made up for it with Pixar and IPOD. Maybe after the next asteriod hits and everything starts over, the macs will dominate LOL.


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## Jimbo205

> Maybe after the next asteriod hits and everything starts over, the macs will dominate LOL.


 I like that! That's cute!

(What do you think of the ads?)


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## fuzzyletters

is there any truth to the bit i heard about you being able to disable the more memory-hogging elements of vista?


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## Moo

thats true with XP, to a point.
You can change the graphics detail under control panel.


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## Yzfr6

I figured this link was appropriate for this thread....

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/23/1931220&from=rss


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## JanS

Well that's good news that you can at least get XP again if you want. I thought that was a crock when they pulled it from the market when Vista came out and didn't even give people the option to decide what they wanted.


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## Moo

It's just like any other operating system.
Though I've had no experience with it yet, I've heard plenty.
XP is a "good" OS. People just don't like change in technology. They sell what sells good. 
And mabey there are too many bugs or little nuisances in Vista. But MS is more than likely not stumbling. I have been wrong before about MS related things...haha.


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## T-Bone

Even the Enterprise is having trouble with Vista.


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## Jimbo205

T-Bone, THAT IS GOOD!!!

*Someone please give that guy some major personality points* or whatever they are called nowadays!!!


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## Brilliant

Well I guess I'll hold my comments on folks complaining about Vista running slowly on their brand new PCs....uh I dont think Vista is the problem there...to say the least...I am running Vista Ultimate on 5+ year old PC...I upgraded the memory to score higher windows rating...lol.

My only gripe is Nvidia drivers on older capable cards/Vista.

Other then that I love Vista! Search alone is enough to switch from XP. XP and EI 6 are barbaric to me now. Go Vista!....I dont even notice the UAC...its just one click anyway and potentially saves me from format/reinstall...XP is vunerable.

People complaining about Vista and run heavy XP....how comical.


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## Jimbo205

It is good to hear something good about it. I will look forward to it with my next computer.


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## Script404

Initially I quite liked it, but in day to day use compared with Xp, its so much more frustrating, programs lock, the file transfers is so slow on big files, day to day niggles compared with Xp make it a pain to work with. Looks like they're bringing out a whole new OS in 2009 now as well.


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## PKchino

I believe Service Pack 1 for Vista is due out soon, should (they better) solve some of the annoying incompatibility issues. +1 for the search function in Vista, it's very powerful when you get used to it.


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## CraigThor

I use Ultimate on a NEW Dell laptop that is tricked out almost completely. For the most part I like Vista but every now and again it is slow or locksup.

Craig


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## uglybuckling

Vista on a core 2 duo with a Raptor X 10k rpm, 4GB DDR2 800Mhz RAM--and it's blazing fast, rock-solid stable for WEEKS without turning it off, quiet, and perfectly fine for me. I use Firefox because even (especially) version 7 of IE sucks...I also killed off a few superfluous processes that run on startup or all the time, and tie up resources. Other than that, I haven't changed much from base config. Idling, it uses about 2% on one of my CPU cores, and about 600-800MB of memory. I don't get "do you want to allow ___________" messages more than about once a month, and I consider this system to be superior to my old XP box in virtually every way. 

In short, I don't see what the fuss is about. Now admittedly I don't do high-end video editing or anything like that, and the most advanced game I play is World of Warcraft, which will run on pretty much anything that isn't a zillion years old....so I haven't really given this machine an in-depth test, but it's been completely fine for everything I've wanted to do with it. Even the speech recognition thing hasn't been two terrible. ::wink::

Just my two cents. 
--B


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## Dantra

Brilliant said:


> Well I guess I'll hold my comments on folks complaining about Vista running slowly on their brand new PCs....uh I dont think Vista is the problem there...to say the least...I am running Vista Ultimate on 5+ year old PC


Same here, no problems whatsoever.



Brilliant said:


> People complaining about Vista and run heavy XP....how comical.


My thoughts exactly.


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## Burks

uglybuckling said:


> In short, I don't see what the fuss is about.
> --B


Sure it's fast for you, look at your computer. 4GB of RAM is nuts. For the average computer user Vista is a waste. My grandparents just purchased a brand spanking new computer with 512mb of RAM. Painfully, ridiculously slow anything on there. Most systems come with 512-1GB of RAM these days, not good for much when Vista idles at nearly half that or more.

Now take the same computers and try to play even a low quality game online. Good luck. Boom, you're dead and you didn't even know who killed you. Lag-o-rama.

For the most part, "normal" users should just stick with XP. Using Vista doesn't give them anything worth the money to upgrade not only their OS but their computer. My computer prays to Bill Gates on a daily basis for me not to put Vista on it.


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## Brilliant

Like I said...People complaining about Vista and run heavy XP....how comical.

512mb of RAM on brand new laptop!?!? Now that sucks...

People who expect miracles probably dont want Vista....and sure it will suck if you run it on junk. My computer is 'old' and running Vista Ultimate just fine.


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## Homer_Simpson

bijoon said:


> *cough* linux *cough*


Agreed

Otherwise, get a Mac, install bootcamp so that you can run both Windows XP and Mac Operating system. Boot into Mac and surf the internet without worrying about installing a s*it load of antispyware/antivirus programs and updating them weekly just to keep your computer spyware and virus free. With Mac you don't need these. As far as gaming and your microsoft programs go, boot back into Windows Xp to run these(just don't surf the net using XP - that is what the Mac os is for). Now, you are good to go.

Windows will always be the target for most hackers and spyware developers, no matter whether it is XP, Vista, or some enhanced future Vista/windows version. Most spyware and antiviruses are coded and scripted to infect windows based systems. Think that your antispyware and antivirus program will keep you safe. If they have so far, consider yourself lucky, but given the possibility of new viruses and spyware programs constantly being developed by hackers to defeat Windows based anti-spyware(think of it as a cat and mouse game between those who create malware and those that create anti-malware programs) and anti-virus programs, you are going to get stung sooner or later and when that happens, be prepared to format your whole computer and run all the 100+ updates and patches, or take your computer into a computer shop and shell out $65-75 to disinfect your computer.


----------



## SKSuser

Homer_Simpson said:


> bijoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> *cough* linux *cough*
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed
Click to expand...

+1 more I guess.
I was skeptical until I decided to refurbish my laptop. I installed windows XP, which took forever as usual.

I then reformatted my remaining space on my hard drive so it would be linux compatible in an attempt to dual boot my machine, installed kubuntu and made it work with my computer, decided I didn't like the features on kubuntu, downloaded ubuntu instead and installed it over kubuntu.
I know how to install XP and make it run. It still took longer to install windows than it did to reformat my hard drive, try a version of linux and get it running, decide I didn't like it and switch to another version of linux and make it run.
Rediculous.
It astounds me that microsoft can force an inferior product on the public without a suitable alternative being available to the mainstream.
The European Union's anti-trust law seems to be doing something worthwhile. Usually, I don't agree with European politics, but I think they've got it right with what they're telling microsoft.


----------



## Avalon

I've yet to be sold on Vista. The time has finally come where there is _just_ enough support for Vista that would make it a somewhat worthwhile upgrade. However, I have some major beef with it. Allow me to explain.

I design and build computers for varying applications; typically database oriented folks, gamers, and web surfers/ppl who like to email. From my experience, very few (actually none) of these ppl give a crap about 'nifty new features.' Speed and stability dominate. They like XP. And that's good, because I like XP too. It's a rock solid OS and for the most part its problems have been solved. I spend a great deal of time optimizing XP to run with the lowest memory overhead possible. IMHO, that's the key to XP--running the least amount of programs possible, while freeing up the most amount of memory possible, while running memory at the fastest timings possible. I find it absurd that Vista wants to *substantially* increase the use of memory. While it is very possible to run Vista just fine, few are willing to spend the extra on upgrades 'just to run Vista's extra resources,' especially when XP will do the same damn thing at minimal costs.

As for a XP installation, I can typically complete an install on a fairly high-end computer (a 7 of 10 rating) in about 12 minutes. However, the main problem I encounter is not the software, it's the hardware. People want to point fingers at Microsoft, but I beg to differ. Hardware makes a huge difference, and Dell is not the answer. Shared video/system memory? Power supplies don't make a difference? 'Locked' system BIOS's? This is all ludicrous, and is half the reason why your computer can't run 'new' programs. So before you point fingers at Vista and how it won't run well, read on...

Vista is not the problem you think it is for the reason you have in mind. Vista is a marketing flop. Vista was designed to make all previous operating systems obsolete, but it failed in one major way: it technically didn't obsolete anything. Features only go so far. Take for example one of the biggest insults: Direct X 10 is only supported via Vista. XP is perfectly capable of supporting it, but MS wouldn't think of it. It's only a matter of time before the user base will fully enable DX10 on XP. What we have here is a repeat of Windows NT vs. 98. NT was used way beyond its time, up until Win 2K because it was a stable OS. Win 98 ranks as one of the worst OS's to date.

So, before you start screaming 'Linux,' I thought you might like to know some areas of concern. Remember: software allows for freedom of choice--hardware allows you to enable that choice.


----------



## SKSuser

Avalon said:


> As for a XP installation, I can typically complete an install on a fairly high-end computer (a 7 of 10 rating) in about 12 minutes.


I honestly don't know, I'm to lazy to google it, and I suspect that you can tell me. 

Why is it that Windows XP takes about 20 minutes to format a partition on my computer, and ubuntu and third party programs like partition magic do it in like a minute?


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Compelling reasons why Linux is just better: http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/

Plus any noob/noobie can set up a dual boot system without major alterations to their hard drive, plus the changes are easily reversible. It's a foolproof way to create a dual boot Windows/Linux computer.
Here is how:
http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step00-linnwin.htm


----------



## JanS

I haven't kept up on this thread all the way through, but there has to be a big reason why they put XP back on the market within a month or 2 of releasing Vista, and (the last I heard) plan to design a brand new Microsoft OS very soon. IMO, if Vista was that worthy, none of the above things would have taken place.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

JanS said:


> ...IMO, if Vista was that worthy, none of the above things would have taken place.


You are *so right*. I remember when Windows 95 first came out. It was supposed to be touted as "the ultimate Windows OS and totally secure." Well, that did not happen and it was prone to viruses, spyware, being easily targeted by hackers, and Microsoft was forever releasing patches and updates to plug up all the holes. Then, Microsoft decided to go back to the drawing board, and released Windows 98, so we all upgraded our hardware to accomodate Windows 98 and bought into the same argument about finally having the ultimate Windows. Again, numerous patches and updates released by Microsoft to continually plug vulnearbilites, easily targeted by hackers and target of new viruses, worms, and Trojans. So, Microsoft goes back to the drawing board and comes out Windows XP. Again, we shelled out some more money upgrading our hardware so Windows Xp would run best. Same fate, as the previous versions. And now Windows Vista, again requiring major hardware upgrades and in some cases the latest computer. Again, Microsoft makes the same argument but the historical record pretty much guarantees that it is going to be deja vu all over again. I have heard the argument - "No operating system is secure" and while this is true, you only have to take a look at the latest virus and trojan threats and see for yourself that you would be hardpressed to find any mentioned that are scripted or coded to infect Linux or MacIntosh.
http://www.symantec.com/business/security_response/threatexplorer/threats.jsp
I have also been a moderator on many sites dispensing information about computer security and safety and helping users with problems. In every case that I came across where the person was having problems with viruses, worms, trojans, and spyware, s/he was using Windows. In the many years that I modded, I never came across a user seeking help with these issues that ran Linux or Mac OS.

Now, you can only blame the end user so much. Yes, Windows users should take precautions to protect their computers from viruses, worms, trojans, and spyware. But, let's be realistic here. Why should the end user have to spend 1/2 hour each week to update their antivirus/antispyware programs(not to mention an ever ending number of patches and updates) every week regularly and habitually, just because they have to use an operating system that is so prone and susceptible to hacking, viruses, worms, and trojans. It is really up to Microsoft to make an OS right in the first place.

Unfortunately, the world revolves around Windows and it is pretty much the dominant global operating system. Most of the software sold will only work with Windows. That is why, you go to a dual boot system with Windows XP and Macintosh OS on a Mac computer or create a dual boot system with Linux OS and boot into Linux or Mac OS to surf the net without worry about patches, updates, and running antispyware and anti-virus programs.

For anyone who is looking for useful tips to secure your computer, I set up a web page with useful links and information. The site was originally developed to provide information about free wireless internet that I set up in my building, but I decided to include useful information on computer protection and security that anyone could benefit from.

http://azdhan.googlepages.com/home


----------



## turbomkt

JanS,
Just to pick nits, Vista has been out for 9 months. It took all this time for M$ to figure out that people want XP instead. Of course, in San Diego we have always had enough places to find XP even after Vista's release.


----------



## Brilliant

Haha this is great. I am so freakin thrilled that people talk about linux in stead of fools argument of osx. Look at swiss cheese apple puts out once it is target. For the people kidding themselves about other options being targets you need a reality check. Please go look at market share and see who you would target...yet another fools argument...let's be realistic here, OK.

Check this out...Vista is the 'ultimate' in client platforms. The deployment has been improved sooo much...WIM is soo awesome. The direction M$ is going here is very cool. Ofcourse I am maintaining multiple PCs...so this direction is appealing to me. If your only maintaining one PC then seethrough windows and new and improved start button(along with great selection of desktop backgrounds ) are hardly worth the so called hefty hardware requirements. But if you have xbox 360...and your a media whore then...Ultimate owns.

XP is vunerable. Vista is less vunerable. I am not running third party antivirus or spyware protection. I have not had to reformat since day one on Vista.

Virus, malware and M$...this a cat and mouse game you can not blame M$ for virus put out today for OS released 9 months ago. Hopefully some sense kicks in and this is pretty obvious to most. Persecute the hacker not the developer. Eww...

There will never be an end to Windows releases. This is a fact, there will always be another release. This does not mean the previous release was trash or garbage...its just progress. I am not pissed because Intel released dual core and my PIII 500mhz is somewhat obsolete.


----------



## tropism

Man, I wish I had gotten into this argument earlier. I'm always up for some OS bashing.  BTW, I can give many more examples to further back up the things I'm about to say, but my post is already going to be long, and I'm trying to not write 'the longest post ever'.

First some replies:



SKSuser said:


> Why is it that Windows XP takes about 20 minutes to format a partition on my computer, and ubuntu and third party programs like partition magic do it in like a minute?


Did you use 'full format', or 'quick format'? Quick formats in XP are pretty quick....



Homer_Simpson said:


> Compelling reasons why Linux is just better: http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/


 LOL! That was a hoot... The only one of those 'compelling reasons' (and I admit, it's a biggie) that I actually agree with is not wanting to pay $300 for an OS. One 'reason' I found particularly amusing was "When the system has installed, why would you still need to install stuff?" -- Try rearranging the start menu with one of the 500 programs that are installed for you by default. (maybe that's changed in the last year?) Some of the reasons even contradict themselves. Ironically, if the Vista view of the world prevails, I'll probably either be stuck in Windows XP forever or go to Linux. 

--

<rant>
I'll just say this about Linux: It's much better than it used to be, but still not usable by the majority of computer users. I'd use it for a server or a basic internet terminal, but not much else.

As for OSX, it's got advantages of both Windows and Linux, but unless you use a hacked copy, you're tied to their hardware. It also feels like a bicycle with training wheels to me, but I must admit, I have less experience with this than Linux or Windows.

Windows Vista. Where to begin. I'm sure most of this has already been said. Windows Vista has a new, prettier (but ultimately less usable) interface, enhanced security through User Account/Access Control (UAC), and nifty 'auto-indexing' of text and multimedia files. All of which I dislike.

At first I really liked the new interface, including the start menu, but I soon got tired of having to scroll through a lot of entries, and some not displaying the full name because of the fixed width of the menu. Windows Explorer crashed at least once a day for me. At least annoying as that, Windows Explorer has gotten rid of the horizontal scroll bar on the left pane... I guess to discourage me from using long folder names? Don't even get me started on the all the inconsistencies (or in some cases outright misdirections) like the universal power symbol (an O with an I inside) on the start menu putting the computer into standby instead of turning it off by default. (If you want to know how to change it, message me. It's not where you'd think.)

UAC is something that windows has needed for a long time, but MS's implementation is horrible. I thought that after I had done most of the configuring I do with a new install, I wouldn't be having to click "Yes, I'd like to get permission to do this", but that wasn't the case for me (I still got them frequently). There are other issues with it as well... I found that I had to run many programs as an administrator, and because of this, drag-and-drop between those programs and windows explorer, the desktop, or other programs was disabled. Turning off UAC helps with some things, but it actually breaks others!! (unfortunately I don't remember what it broke right now). One more thing to confuse people: administrator accounts are not the same as the Administrator account.

On top of this, there are lots of problems with drivers, not all of which can be fixed by the hardware vendors easily. (fundamental changes in certain driver models... so in many cases, no quick fix. I could elaborate much more on this, but it would take some time.)

Basically, you can upgrade to Vista to get all of these 'improvements' for just $250. That is, if you don't have to upgrade any hardware to run it. (the pricing is nuts... as is having *10 different versions*... yes, when taking into account both 32-bit and 64-bit versions, there are TEN different ones) My main problem with Vista is exactly what Brilliant was talking about liking (I'm not trying to offend you, Brilliant, just a difference in opinion) -- I DO NOT like the direction it's going in. MS has made Vista a better OS for corporate settings (than XP) because you can more easily control what people are and are not allowed to do... and better for some people that just want to go on the internet, and have their computer organize their photos, movies and music automatically. BUT, when they start saying that something that has components that crash daily is more stable... and that I, as the sole user of my computer, can't delete a text file that *I* created (Yes, that happened. Even with the Administrator account, and with UAC turned off, the file could not be deleted), that's a direction I don't want them going in. In making it a little easier to do _some_ things, they're making it much harder for me to do _most_ of the things I need to do.

Sure, Windows XP does have it's problems, but you *don't* have to spend 30 minutes a week to update all your antivirus software, antispyware, etc as someone else mentioned. You can get (really good) free programs that update themselves without any intervention. (and for Brilliant...) Heck, you can even get good free programs to do disk imaging and installs over a network from a Windows PE environment (maybe not as nice as WIM, I dunno). * I just know that after two months using Vista, I could not have been more relieved when I wiped the drive and went back to XP.*
</rant>


----------



## Homer_Simpson

I guess people speak from different experiences. I speak from the experience of helping many people with virus and spyware infections having been a moderator for several years on security related forums, personal experience aside, many of the users were using Microsoft Windows. Now, I have 2 computers set up. One soley with windows and the free antivirus programs(AVG and antispyware programs yeah I know about all the free ones, check out my site, I have a whole web page set up on the issue of computer security and precautions one could take. No one needs to educate me) another with Linux. Linux by far in the 3 years of running simulated virus and spyware attacks(just to see how the defenses would hold up) against both no question Linux wins hands down. And yes some spyware and Trojans did by pass the antivirus and anti-spyware programs with the Windows XP machine that were updated. So, unless you have run your own simulated attacks on both Windows Xp and Linux based PCs like I have you cannot say Windows Xp is more secure, sorry, I know some would "like" to believe that, but it isn't true. Some that say, well I am running antivirus and antispyware programs that updates itself so I don't need to do anything. Wrong again, unless these programs are automated to run scans, you had better scan weekly or I can guarantee you that something will sneak past you. Kind of reminds me of a guy at work. We once were talking about the value of antivirus programs, specifically Avast. He told me he did not need such programs because he ran the free on-line antivirus scans and his computer always checked out clean. Then a week later, he came to me and said. "Thank God! you told me about Avast antivirus. I just installed it out of curiosity on my computer and it detected and cleaned 22 Trojans that I did not even know I had. Keep in mind that no one antispyware program will pick up all possible spyware and no one anti-virus program will pick up all viruses or Trojans. When I disinfect computers, I find that if I rely on one program it never picks up all viruses and spyware. Many people for this reason use a bunch of antispyware programs(spy sweeper, ad aware, spywareblaster, and spybot search and destroy)

Also, on a personal note, I am usually the person that friends and neighbours call upon when their computer is in need of a disinfection because it is so badly infected that they cannot even connect to the net or in some cases boot into Windows XP. I am the guy who helped a friend clean up is son's and daughters Windows XP based computer that had no less than 145 spyware programs and no less than 113 viruses and Trojans combined. I am the same guy who taught my friend's son and daughter what programs to use to prevent this from happening. 2 years later no further infections.

Exactly how many new and emerging viruses, Trojans, and spyware do you see everyday that infect Windows based systems and how many new ones are scripted for Linux or Mac?? Far and Few inbetween. So, what?? Nothing except is speaks to being more vulnerable when you choose to use Windows, to cruise the net.

Now, to a well known fact when it comes to botnets and Windows based systems. Botnets primarily target windows based systems largely due to vulnerabilites in the Windows XP code or OS. What that means is that if you seriously believe that Windows is so secure and you don't need to use Third Party Anti-Virus programs your computer may be one of the many zombie machines under the control of a bot herder spewing out spam to others without your knowledge.
http://www.cybertopcops.blogspot.com/
And believe you me, this is not Sci-Fi. In fact the reason that hackers are so effective is that they are able to gain remote control of windows based machines that are easily infected without the users knowledge and the hackers are easily able to unleash a DDOS(Distributed Denial Of Service Attack) against web sites that often will criple the web site and host permanently
http://htmlfixit.com/?p=602
http://antivirus.about.com/od/whatisavirus/a/zombiepc.htm
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050120.gttwbots20/BNStory/Technology/
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/computersecurity/2004-09-08-zombieuser_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/14/AR2006021401342.html

And again, it is the Windows XP machines that are being easily recruited and used in BotNet attacks. The code is just most susceptible to being hacked and it is easy enough for hackers to develop a Trojan specifically scripted to infect Windows based computers vs Linux or Mac OS computers. Bottom line, your vulnerability just increased significantly by simply being a Windows Xp user and cruising the net. Sorry, that is the reality whether you like Windows more than Linux or Mac or Mac or Linux more than Windows. That reality does not change.

I never said one had to give up Windows XP, but I suggested creating a dual boot system with Windows XP and Linux to offer one an extra measure of protection and to avoid the many Trojans, worms, and viruses "scripted" and "coded" to infect users accessing the internet or checking their E-Mail using a Windows XP system. Some of you who are getting all defensive about this need to read my post carefully. I stated that Windows is the global dominant OS and most software programs being developed and are currently available are made to be used with Windows only. That is the whole idea of dual boot. You get the best of both worlds. The better antivirus/antispyware(oops I forgot there is no such thing as spyware for Linux) protection afforded when you install linux and access the net, and the ability to still use current and new software programs most of which are only compatible with Windows. Plain and simple, but hey if you enjoy Windows XP or Vista and don't care for Linux, all the power to you. Also, for those complaining about driver support, Linux distros like Ubantu have come a long way and much of the hardware once not supported is supported. Sometimes, it takes a simple Google search, going to the appropriate Ubantu forums(just like researching what you need to do to set up a planted tank), to resolve some of these issues. Of course, if you cannot be bothered, best to stick with Windows, just like if you cannot be bothered in putting forth the effort to set up a planted tank, best to stick to a non-planted tank with plastic plants only.


----------



## Brilliant

tropism said:


> Did you use 'full format', or 'quick format'? Quick formats in XP are pretty quick....
> 
> I'll just say this about Linux: It's much better than it used to be, but still not usable by the majority of computer users. I'd use it for a server or a basic internet terminal, but not much else.
> 
> Windows Vista. Where to begin. I'm sure most of this has already been said. Windows Vista has a new, prettier (but ultimately less usable) interface, enhanced security through User Account/Access Control (UAC), and nifty 'auto-indexing' of text and multimedia files. All of which I dislike.
> 
> At first I really liked the new interface, including the start menu, but I soon got tired of having to scroll through a lot of entries, and some not displaying the full name because of the fixed width of the menu. Windows Explorer crashed at least once a day for me. At least annoying as that, Windows Explorer has gotten rid of the horizontal scroll bar on the left pane... I guess to discourage me from using long folder names? Don't even get me started on the all the inconsistencies (or in some cases outright misdirections) like the universal power symbol (an O with an I inside) on the start menu putting the computer into standby instead of turning it off by default. (If you want to know how to change it, message me. It's not where you'd think.)
> 
> UAC is something that windows has needed for a long time, but MS's implementation is horrible. I thought that after I had done most of the configuring I do with a new install, I wouldn't be having to click "Yes, I'd like to get permission to do this", but that wasn't the case for me (I still got them frequently). There are other issues with it as well... I found that I had to run many programs as an administrator, and because of this, drag-and-drop between those programs and windows explorer, the desktop, or other programs was disabled. Turning off UAC helps with some things, but it actually breaks others!! (unfortunately I don't remember what it broke right now). One more thing to confuse people: administrator accounts are not the same as the Administrator account.
> 
> On top of this, there are lots of problems with drivers, not all of which can be fixed by the hardware vendors easily. (fundamental changes in certain driver models... so in many cases, no quick fix. I could elaborate much more on this, but it would take some time.)
> 
> My main problem with Vista is exactly what Brilliant was talking about liking (I'm not trying to offend you, Brilliant, just a difference in opinion) -- I DO NOT like the direction it's going in. MS has made Vista a better OS for corporate settings (than XP) because you can more easily control what people are and are not allowed to do... and better for some people that just want to go on the internet, and have their computer organize their photos, movies and music automatically. BUT, when they start saying that something that has components that crash daily is more stable... and that I, as the sole user of my computer, can't delete a text file that *I* created (Yes, that happened. Even with the Administrator account, and with UAC turned off, the file could not be deleted), that's a direction I don't want them going in. In making it a little easier to do _some_ things, they're making it much harder for me to do _most_ of the things I need to do.


Ha thats what I thought...no quick format or going from FAT to NTFS...

Linux...Yep web server with one or more funtions...I ran linux on desktop several years ago and screen flashed everytime I moved the mouse. Perhaps this in due to my experience level with it but I guess I can say the same for folks experiencing problems on Windows.

UAC is freaking awesome! True they need to streamline it somehow but honestly its almost there...doesnt bug me one bit and if it does I think about the backup, format & reinstall it saves me.

Drivers....heh...my capable Nvidia card...yeah I have nothing good to say there. Glass half empty view...Vista almost forces you to buy hardware. Half full view...saves me from glitches when all hardware is on HCL.

Extending the reach of group policy is what is needed and has been accomplished. I absolutely love the new search in OS and Office/Outlook. I cringe when I have to search in XP...yup I am spolied. As far as photos and other media goes Media Center is really great. Maybe thats just on Ultimate I dont really know but if your buying it for desktop/home then IMO Ultimate is only way to go. Mine hasnt flinched at all.

Oh yeah did I forget to mention ReadyBoost?! The list goes on and on. Yay Vista!

I didnt even read the other post because quite honestly it reminds me of the 'old days' all that talk of spyware programs, AV and firewalls....yuck.

I am not offended by anything here, I hope I dont offend anyone else.


----------



## Brilliant

Oh yeah MS probably has to have 10 versions because some company will sue them due to them including everything on single OS. Perhaps if the consumer chooses a version and has option of striped down version then there is no case ( as if there should be a case! what a world!). Thats just my gut feeling, I dont know why.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

All the reasons I like Mac. They say a picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
To view the videos, you need to have Quicktime Viewer, but I personally find better playback with VLC Player vs Quicktime Video(even better than Windows Media player, which by the way will not play these MOV format videos - you may have to install VlC player  to view the videos)

My favourites.
"WSJ"
"stuffed"
"computer cart"
"security"
"Tech Support"
"Surgery"
"Sales Pitch"
"Out Of The Box"
"Trust Mac"
"Viruses"
How about that "Choose A Vista" one, Lol.


----------



## Brilliant

Maybe if apple wasnt so dumb those videos would work on Vista! Now thats a thought isnt it! Thats just the first step towards proprietary trash they have. 

Sorry to all the artists out there...I know where macs are useful but I thought we were being realistic here...


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Brilliant said:


> Maybe if apple wasnt so dumb those videos would work on Vista! Now thats a thought isnt it! Thats just the first step towards proprietary trash they have...


The fact that those videos don't work on Vista points to a fundamental flaw in Vista or specifically Windows Media Player. I mean come on considering that the Internet is ripe with Mov extension files, who in their right mind designs an OS that does not have built in support to play Mov files. By the way, just out of curiosity, I just booted into Suse Linux on my dual boot Windows XP Suse Linux IBM laptop and tried playing the videos. No problem, videos played perfectly, nothing to download. Further proof that the problem playing MOV files resides with windows and not Mac as Linux Suse played the videos without a hitch. 


































A weakness in Vista(one of many, just ask hackers, they love Windows PC users, especially since their attack software is coded to work with Windows XP/Vista) cannot be blamed on Macs, lol.

Dumb videos... well, there seems to be a lot of truth in each and everyone of those videos if you view them with an open mind and as they say the "Truth Hurts"

Oh well, to each his own, Linux and Macs for all the right reasons. Oh and did I mention that you can run Windows Vista/Xp and microsoft programs(including outlook, word, excel, etc.,) on Macs, so much for Macs only having a place for "artists only," "Touche" 


















Just love those "I am a Mac and I am a PC" videos.


----------



## fishscale

Here is my issue with macs:

1. Terrible customer service. Every time I go to a genius bar, I want to punch the "genius" in the face and then use his teeth to clean the bottom of my shoes. Here is how a typical conversation goes:

Pretentious idiot: Hi, I'm _____, I'll be your genius today *giggle*
Me: My laptop is having a problem *show him problem on laptop*
Pretentious idiot: Hmmm, it looks like your (insert part that has nothing to do with the problem) is broken. We should place an order for it. Can I put you down for a part that costs almost as much as the resale value of your computer?
Me: ...This is a kernel panic.
Pretentious idiot: Right, which means (insert part) is broken.
Me: ...A kernel panic could mean many many things, which is why I brought it here for you to take a look at it and fix it.
Pretentious idiot: I already know it's (insert part)
Me: But how did you know? All I did was show you that I have a kernel panic?
Pretentious idiot: I just do.

I'm not even going to get into their warranty policies and things of that nature.

2. Price
You expect me to pay $2,000 for a laptop because it is glossy and black. I will stick to a 500 dollar dell with the same processing power, thanks.

Conclusions: While macs do possess all the capabilities do, and come with some neat software, namely garageband, it is not economically effective unless you are an artist, because then the software that mac gives you will be worth the extra cost in comparison to the garbage that is available on pc for those applications anyway.

Linux:

1. I am a CSE major. Work and play do not mix. QED.

Windows:

I use XP because I have seen first hand what Vista is like. Vista is good for very specific things only, namely things I haven't found a need for yet. According to one of my professors, Vista uses a lot of multi-threading, which is good for running big operations, but bad for day to day use. 

Generally speaking, you won't need to worry if something will work on windows. If an .mov doesn't work, that's your fault. You need to find out how to play it, because it's not in Microsoft's interest to allow you to play it. Yes, it is inconvenient, but how many times do you get a windows media player plug? Microsoft wants you to use windows media player, no matter how crappy it is.

That being said, the reason that vista has so many stupid annoying prompts is that people who don't know anything about computers can really mess things up. I've seen it happen. My friend got a brand new laptop and put a virus on it in roughly 45 minutes.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

fishscale said:


> Here is my issue with macs:
> ... Terrible customer service...


Funny you should say that as this is the exact same experience I have had buying Windows based XP PCS, from problems with the computer itself(re: warranty and warranty policies) and having to deal with warranty related issues to phoning Microsoft with software related issues pertaining to installation or problems with XP itself. And I have lots of friends who can speak to the same type of experience. Those problems are not unique to Macs or any other computer. Customer service issues are not unique to Macs, sorry. And that goes for warranty related issues.



fishscale said:


> .. Price
> You expect me to pay $2,000 for a laptop because it is glossy and black..


In life, you get what you pay for. Less security problems, less crashes, and less depreciation. Hey, just check out E-Bay, used PCS are a dime a dozen, check out the used Macs - a different story. They auction at a higher price but you will often see a bidding war for them unlike for PCS. Why would I buy a Honda Civic when I can buy a Chevrolet Cavaliar for thousands less? Why would I pay a lot more for a Rex Grigg regulator when I can get a Azoo Regulator for next to nothing??



fishscale said:


> ...That being said, the reason that vista has so many stupid annoying prompts is that people who don't know anything about computers can really mess things up. I've seen it happen. My friend got a brand new laptop and put a virus on it in roughly 45 minutes.


For the 7+ years that I have been disinfecting computers for people. I met a lot of competent people who were running the latest antispyware and anti-virus software and when I checked it was updated. They knew what they were doing, and yet someway/somehow, their computers ended up with some nasty spyware/viruses. In that time from all the people I know that run Macs or Linux, I have yet to meet one that ever got spyware(no such thing for Linux) or viruses. Your friend did not put the virus on it.....if you don't run all the 100+ updates and patches to patch the many vulnerabilities that a newly installed Windows OS on a new computer has combined with the latest antivirus and antispyware programs, the very act of connecting to the internet will get you infected. I have seen it happen a 100 times. A coworker asked me to take a look at her brand new PC, running Vista as everytime she connected to the internet, and started her browser, she was bombarded by never ending annoying popups. Now, how the heck did that happen, considering that the computer came with Norton Anti-Virus and Spyware protection. No mystery there, the Spyware/Adware bypassed Norton, eventhough Norton was fully updated. We had to install and run Spybot Search and Destroy to catch and delete the 6 spyware programs that had bypassed Norton and infected the computer. Had she taken her computer back, she would have been told: "Sorry, the warranty only covers hardware related issues and not software related issues, you can phone Norton, or if you like we can take care of the problem for $65 or just reinstall your OS and that should take care of the problem" "But sir, the computer came with Norton Antivirus and Anti-Spyware and this should have not happened!" Response: "Mamm, we cannot speak for Norton or any other third party software that comes with your computer that you have problems with, but you are free to contact the vendor. Now, if you don't leave, I will have to call Security."

Many people cannot be bothered spending a ton of time updating to the latest patches and other security updates + additional anti-spyware programs just to avoid an infection. They just want the computer to work out of the box, who doesn't? A Mac just works out of the box.

Based on all my experiences of helping Windows XP/Vista Users with their PCS, I would recommend Macs anytime and for those people that I recommended a Mac to and who followed by advise, they tell me that they could not be happier and would not go back to a PC. For me, the only thing holding me back was the inability to run some of the microsoft software on a Mac. Now that I can run Windows XP/Vista on a Mac it allows me to run all the programs, so why would need a PC?
But like I said, to each his own. If you like Vista and Windows XP and cost is the bottom line for you, all the power to you. I can even put together a PC for you for $500 - the same one that retails for a $1000.


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## Brilliant

fishscale said:


> If an .mov doesn't work, that's your fault. You need to find out how to play it, because it's not in Microsoft's interest to allow you to play it. Yes, it is inconvenient, but how many times do you get a windows media player plug? Microsoft wants you to use windows media player, no matter how crappy it is.


Uhh...Id install quicktime alternative. I think you kinda missed my point. If its supposed to sway people why not make it work on Vista out of the box. Another point was that this needed software is tip of the iceberg when you take the proprietary plunge to apple.

I bet the videos really are funny...after all apple is a big joke.


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## Homer_Simpson

Brilliant said:


> ...after all apple is a big joke.


Not as big a joke or as Microsoft Windows  That is the biggest joke ever. Oh well, I guess, you need something to keep computer service shops in business. Hey $65 for every spyware/virus infested Windows PC adds up to a lot. Hell, I should start charging everytime co-workers, friends, family, and neighbours call me to "come fix their computers." I'd make a ton of money even charging $10 for every call for help I get.

Microsoft does not have support to allow you to view those Mac Videos cause they are afraid if Windows XP users view them, they will realize how Cra**py Windows really is.


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## tropism

Homer_Simpson said:


> Hell, I should start charging everytime co-workers, friends, family, and neighbours call me to "come fix their computers." I'd make a ton of money even charging $10 for every call for help I get.


Amen. I've even started getting calls from people I don't know... "Hi, I'm a friend of ____. He said that you might be able to help me." :|

I'd really like to post more, but I'm busy studying for exams. So, I'll just leave you another quote.



Homer_Simpson said:


> In life, you get what you pay for.


... and Linux is free. ;-)


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## tropism

C'mon, some of you have to have a sense of humor, right?? Seriously though, I'd still rather help 100 windows users remove spyware from their machines than try to help non-computer people (the majority of computer users now anyway) figure out a problem in Linux.


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## fishscale

The difference between problems with macs and pcs is that it is easy to figure out what is wrong with a pc. It is much harder to figure out what is wrong with a mac that gives you a generic kernel panic. That is why customer service is so important in macs; they hold you hostage to it. You cannot google "kernel panic" and find what the problem is. You can usually google a windows error message and get the general idea. Furthermore, have you ever tried to take apart a mac? There are more screws in the keyboard then there are on the entire chassis of a dell laptop. Everything is put together to look pretty, so efficiency of stripping the computer was not taken into account. It is my opinion that when you buy a mac, you are buying a lifestyle more than a computer. I can also tell you that Dell's customer service is much better than Apple's. You might argue that Dell is only one manufacturer of PC's, but then again, you could put together a PC yourself. It would be quite a feat to DIY a mac, not to mention the monopoly that apple has on the parts. By discouraging competition (in that apple makes/subcontracts all parts that go into macs), you discourage improvement.

Putting together a computer for 500 dollars is exactly why I think PC's are better. It is more like 500 dollars for a computer that works out of the box from Dell; it is even cheaper to build one yourself.


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## fishscale

I wasn't arguing with you, Brilliant. I was just saying that it makes perfect sense that Microsoft wouldn't have .mov work upon installation of windows. It would be like providing a working platform for your enemy, why do it? I actually agree with you.


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## Homer_Simpson

tropism said:


> ... and Linux is free. ;-)


And it has less problems than Windows. Go figure. Take it from someone who has been running Windows and Linux side by side for years and has seen the difference. :wink: Actually, I find few if any problems in Linux and have yet to experience a problem that was any more difficult to figure out than in Windows. Sometimes learning new things(driving,riding a bicycle, setting up a planted tank, combatting algae, etc.,) takes some effort that you either choose to make or not.

I just set up a dual boot Linux/Windows XP system for my sister. She told me that she couldn't be happier, given that she is on dialup, it took forever to run all her Windows XP patches and security fixes(she just dreaded Wednesdays as this was when Windows usually released all the latest updates, which meant leaving her internet dialup for hour to ensure she got the latest updates) and update her antispyware/antivirus programs every week when she was using Windows XP to access the internet. She is happy that she no longer has to do this and can boot into linux and surf the net without having to worry about running and updating antivirus and antispyware programs. She also likes the fact that she can browse the net on Linux with her favourite Mozilla Firefox browser. She uses Windows XP to do her non-internet related tasks and boots into Linux to safely surf the net and do internet related tasks. There was no new learning on her part since the Firefox browser in Linux is exactly the same as the one she was using in Windows XP to surf the net.

On her desktop running Windows XP, even with updated antispyware and antivirus programs, she just got a nasty Trojan/Virus and will have to format her whole hard drive and reinstall her programs. 100% No Joke.


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## Homer_Simpson

fishscale said:


> ... It is much harder to figure out what is wrong with a mac that gives you a generic kernel panic...


I have yet to experience this kernel panic that you speak of as to my friends who have had macs for years.


fishscale said:


> ... have you ever tried to take apart a mac?


Why would I?? When I pay for something expensive and have a extended warranty to boot, why would I? That's like saying, have you tried taking apart Rex Grigg's regulator and put it back together. Why would I? I don't usually hang on to my PCS for more than 3 years. Microsoft usually phases out the older OS and if you want to use the latest OS you are "forced" to buy a brand new computer or do some major hardware upgrading if the computer is even upgradeable by that time. There are people out their who were content to just run Windows 98 as it was serving their needs just fine. The last thing that they wanted to do was upgrade to Windows XP or be forced to buy a computer because their hardware would not support Windows XP or be upgraded. They were forced to do so, as Microsoft phased out support for Windows 98. The same thing is going to happen with Windows XP and you can take that to the bank. And the last time that I checked, a PC laptop can cost quite a bit in parts and labour when it needs to be fixed.



fishscale said:


> I can also tell you that Dell's customer service is much better than Apple's


Again, you make generalizations based on your own unique experiences. I have a friend with a Mac who was a former Dell user and tells me the exact opposite. He tells me that he could not be happier switching and has had better customer service from Apple than he ever got from Dell. You cannot make blanket statments about customer service and "assume" that your experience speaks for everyone's experience.



fishscale said:


> Putting together a computer for 500 dollars is exactly why I think PC's are better. It is more like 500 dollars for a computer that works out of the box from Dell; it is even cheaper to build one yourself.


Grant it that PCS are cheaper and I cannot and won't argue that point. Are they better and do they work out of the box. They are certainly not better by my definition, but I guess they may be by your definition. As far as PCS working out of the box, sorry new PCS *don't* work out of the box. You have to install the various software, run the 100+ updates, make sure that all your anti-virus programs are updated, and install additional third party antispyware programs to further secure your computer(and that threat always looms over your head even after you do this). That fact and reality means, they don't work out of the box whether it is Dell or whether it is one that you put together yourself.


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## Brilliant

This Microsoft you complain of has given me a job for the past 10 years. This is great for the ecomony. I dont see any apple administrators in the newspapers in fact I dont see any jobs provided by apple at all...

An enterprise with apples...wow what a waste. I'll stick to Microsoft and Cisco thank you.


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## Homer_Simpson

Brilliant said:


> ... fact I *dont see *any jobs provided by apple at all...











Hmmm....Okay......maybe you are looking in the wrong places. The last time I checked Apple was hiring and is always hiring. 
http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/index.html



Brilliant said:


> ... I'll stick to Microsoft and Cisco thank you


:thumbsup: Great...and all the power to you. I never suggested that you should quit your job and go work for Apple.


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## Brilliant

Hmm perhaps I wasnt as clear as I should have been. I know after selling tons of pods and trendy looking computers to the masses apple can hire a few thousand folks. I dont work directly for Microsoft but the need for trained workers is because of their products, this is what I do not see for apple. 

Who said anything about quitting jobs. Anyways, I bet working for apple would be tons of fun. This is about choosing a proven solution.


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## Homer_Simpson

Brilliant said:


> ... This is about choosing a proven solution.


I agree, and I guess we disagree on what the proven solution is. But that's okay, nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. Life would be pretty boring if people agreed on everything.

Peace.


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## Brilliant

Yeah no offense...I thought id put some light on the bigger picture...if it wasnt for Microsoft I wouldnt be here. Id be slingin crack rock....

Until we meet again!


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