# Considering going "Dirted" - help request



## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Hello all,
I'll start from the top of the tank and go to the bottom. I am considering a change as I am tired of my current set up and want to try out something different. It seems to me going dirted would be something I've never done and maybe less maintenance.

Back ground : From 2009-2014 I ran a pressurized CO2 aquarium, it grew awesome, no problems at all. 50-60% water changes weekly and EI dosing. I used a hose to change water and never had any issues. At this time I lived in NJ with very hard tap water. (Stained all glassware). What turned into an issue was every Wednesday night my 60-90 minutes plant trimming sessions. Got into a fight for the 4th week in a row, sold the tank on Craigslist and got into hunting/shooting with the new money.
2016 Got back into fish tanks, now living in Virginia. Went "low tech" so i wouldn't have to do the big trimming sessions. Didn't like the slow growth of what I had. Eventually switched to what i have now which is DIY CO2, Excel, and EI dosing. I still don't really like whatI have. In particular, I CANNOT change water with a hose as my water comes out at 0/0 KH-GH with dissolved CO2. So my PH out of the tap is between 4 and 5. After 3 hours in a glass it is back to 7.5 or so, as the carbonic acids from dissolved CO2 have dissipated to the atmosphere. So when I do my water changes I need to fill 12 buckets (40 breeder), wait overnight, and then change water. Serious pain.

LIGHTING : I have 2 x Finnex Stingrays, each with a layer of window screen mounted on them. I have 37-40 PAR throughout the bottom of my tank when it is bare. I know others have reported almost 40 PAR in a full tank so maybe if I got super lush i would have to remove the window screen, not sure. I believe 37-40 PAR is a fairly good starting point for a natural/dirt/walstad tank.

WATER : As Mentioned, it is extremely soft (0 GH 0 KH). I am capable and willing to dose baking soda and Equilibrium in calculated and then tested amounts to maintain whatever hardness is preferable. I understand that soft water has its own challenges in a dirted tank. What should my target GH and KH be?

Equipment: I run an Eheim 2217 and a TOM Surface Skimmer. Surface scum is really the bane of my existence and the mere sight of it on a tank sickens me. Is it ok to use this equipment in a dirted tank? Or am I already fighting a losing battle off-gassing CO2 and I can't? To be honest, if i can't use the surface skimmer I probably wouldn't even try this method. I've used it for 7 years and can't imagine not.

Substrate : Is https://www.burpee.com/gardening-sup...rod100078.html this OK to use? It's available at the Tractor Supply down the street and would make me have just one trip for soil and black diamond; minimizing trips is beneficial in these pandemic times.
1.5" of organic potting mix and 1.5" of BDBS? How many bags is that in a 40 Breeder (18x36 footprint)? Tractor supply sells BDBS as "medium" and "fine" but the Q&A on the site shows the Medium is 20-40.

Thanks for any advice. I always am looking for something to do with one of my hobbies, right now I am in a bit of a lull with most of them, and the tank has become something that I almost decide to sell on a weekly basis.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

For what it's worth, I already use STS in my 40B (thanks to Michael, et al) and I didn't realize until I just ran into the discussion further down that this was an OK substrate for an NPT as well. I thought that we needed something like Black Diamond to cap the soil. So I have all the STS that's already in my tank (full of good bacteria) as well as another 1/4 bag out in the garage.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Since I have a Walstad 40 breeder that is 9 years old, your questions are right up my alley, LOL.

*Lighting* is two Finnex Stingrays with no covering or diffusers. I have lots of plants that grow to the surface and through the surface and spread across the tank, so I need full output.

*Water* is very different from yours. pH is 7.4-7.8 out of the tap, total dissolved solids are 150 ppm considered moderately hard. pH stays the same in the tank (water is highly buffered) but TDS usually rises to over 200-250 ppm depending on how lazy I am with water changes.

*Filtration* used to be an Eheim 2217 and is now a large AquaClear. I prefer the Eheim. At first I used both mechanical and biomedia in the filter, but took out the superfluous biomedia years ago. I also run a small Eheim skimmer to remove any surface scum and the stray duckweed.

*Substrate* is mineralized topsoil (can't remember brand) mixed 50/50 with Turface. The cap is also Turface, but this was back when you could get the attractive charcoal gray color. I won't use the red stuff. My other tanks substitute STS or Black Diamond for the Turface. I actually prefer the STS to Black Diamond, mostly for aesthetic reasons. But a warning: if your fish (frisky plecos) kick up enough Black Diamond to be pulled into your filter, it will do a real number on impellers and other moving parts. If you use Black Diamond, get the largest particle size you can find.

The link to your soil didn't work. But I think we can say that almost any reasonable soil will work as long as you are careful in the beginning. If you suspect the soil is too rich, you can soak and drain or mineralize. I suggest that the soil depth be no more than 1" especially if you are not mixing the soil with something like STS. Be prepared to test and do water changes in the first few months if needed.

With your soft water, you may want to mix crushed oyster shell with the soil. You can buy it at Tractor Supply too. A cup or two should be enough for the tank.

This 40B is my most trouble-free tank. It just hums along, year after year. Every time I have thought I needed to dose it with something, I was wrong. It gets a major trim about every 3-4 months.

Have fun!


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Sorry, I guess the link didn't work as I copied text from a post elsewhere. Here is the soil:

https://www.burpee.com/gardening-supplies/fertilizers/burpee-natural-organic-premium-growing-mix-0.12-0.12-0.12-prod100078.html

Burpee Natural Organic Premium Growing Mix 0.12-0.12-0.12

Thanks, I remember us discussing both STS and Stingrays in the past. I am still surprised at our different Stingray findings, where I was finding (in a totally bare 40B) 60-70 PAR without the window screen so I run it with the window screen. Maybe once I have more plants in there I will need to drop it off.

I think I'll take the plunge. I think I am going to use BDBS just to mix it up, something different than the STS I have been using for a couple years. I found dark eco complete to be stunning in the past and I think the black BDBS will get me back to that look. I will wait to re-do the tank until I see a really good trim package come up for sale. I have 20-25 Crypt Wendti and some dwarf sags in my tank right now but not a lot of stem plants.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The soil link doesn't list ingredients. The things to look out for are manure, poultry litter, guano, etc. These are the things that send ammonia levels high at first.

I've never been able to test the Stingrays in a bare tank. They are a replacement for an old T5 NO fixture, so the tank was full of plants when I started using them. The highest PAR at the substrate I measured was about 40.

If you like the Black Diamond, don't mix the soil with STS. STS particles are a little lighter and if the cap is disturbed you will have STS on top of your Black Diamond. Not a great look, IMO.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Michael said:


> The soil link doesn't list ingredients. The things to look out for are manure, poultry litter, guano, etc. These are the things that send ammonia levels high at first.
> 
> I've never been able to test the Stingrays in a bare tank. They are a replacement for an old T5 NO fixture, so the tank was full of plants when I started using them. The highest PAR at the substrate I measured was about 40.
> 
> If you like the Black Diamond, don't mix the soil with STS. STS particles are a little lighter and if the cap is disturbed you will have STS on top of your Black Diamond. Not a great look, IMO.


Michael,

When first starting the tank I understand I may want to change water a few times until stuff settles out. I am going to soak all the dirt in buckets for a few days to pull out floating bits. I will not be mineralizing the soil and I will be capping it with black diamond 20-40. I also set up my two stingrays today like yours, no screen mesh on them and 5-3-5 schedule.

After reading some of yours and Diana's posts, I do believe I will use my remaining STS as well as some of my old, and mix it into the soil. Not as a cap though, I really want to get back to a black cap for aesthetics that I enjoy. I plan to mix STS and the potting mix (after rinsing/stirring a few times daily in buckets and removing floaty-bits over the next 5 days), laying that down in the tank and then dusting the entire top surface with oyster shell from the chicken coop supplies before capping. I'll lay down the hardwood before capping and plant plants before filling.

When they say change water until it "settles out" is that just referring to Ammonia and Nitrites? I was thinking I'll probably change it every other day for a week and then start testing and monitoring if anything is going up, probably do a few more 50% changes before adding fish.

I have ordered approximately 50 stems, 20-30 other plants (crypts, swords, ferns, vals, etc) handfuls of multiple types of floating plants, and from my existing tank I have 20-30 crypts and 30-50 stems to add as well. I am at about 50% substrate coverage from plants in my current setup so i expect to be around 75-80% when the new items are added to these supplies for the makeover.

Plants and wood should all arrive by Weds of next week, which is also the same day my baby chicks arrive for the coop. Last several weeks of quarantine from work will be pretty busy with these two projects!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"When they say change water until it “settles out” is that just referring to Ammonia and Nitrites?"

Not sure who they are, but yes ammonia would be my concern. Soaking and draining the soil as you plan to do will reduce this problem. Sounds like you are starting out with a good number of plants. I think this is one aspect of the Walstad method that is often ignored.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

*Considering going "Dirted" - help request*

My first batch I made a mistake and tried dumping rinse water as if it was playsand or STS. As Michael wrote on other posts historically it sure isn't! So here is batch two. I was able to remove a ton of wood and the floating white balls by filling water 3-5 inches above mud level and then drained it with a siphon. Now I just need the sun to come out for rest of today, and next couple days!









Scraping off floaty bits.









Siphoning water.



















Last weekend the family and I spent a day sifting my chicken compost for our raised bed garden


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Doc7 said:


> I am considering a change as I am tired of my current set up and want to try out something different. It seems to me going dirted would be something I've never done and maybe less maintenance.


So the tank is a 40 gal breeder? I would read my book as you are switching from high-tech system to a low tech system. You are doing a decent job with the soil factor, but a soil substrate is just one of many variables. (Looks like you've got some good helpers!)

As plants and soil do the water purification (e.g., ammonia removal, etc), you will need to focus less on filters and massive water changes. If you do small water changes, you should be able to add water hardness chemicals at the same time. My book describes addition of Ca, Mg, and K (p. 87) to increase water hardness. If you are starting from zero GH, you really need a plethora of ions, including Na. I add 1 tsp of Instant Ocean per 10 gal plus extra CaCl2 and KCl to get the water hardness up to a GH = 5. I would consider a GH = 5 as the *minimum* for the general nutrition of most plants.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

*Considering going "Dirted" - help request*



dwalstad said:


> So the tank is a 40 gal breeder? I would read my book as you are switching from high-tech system to a low tech system. You are doing a decent job with the soil factor, but a soil substrate is just one of many variables. (Looks like you've got some good helpers!)
> 
> As plants and soil do the water purification (e.g., ammonia removal, etc), you will need to focus less on filters and massive water changes. If you do small water changes, you should be able to add water hardness chemicals at the same time. My book describes addition of Ca, Mg, and K (p. 87) to increase water hardness. If you are starting from zero GH, you really need a plethora of ions, including Na. I add 1 tsp of Instant Ocean per 10 gal plus extra CaCl2 and KCl to get the water hardness up to a GH = 5. I would consider a GH = 5 as the *minimum* for the general nutrition of most plants.


Thank you! I am reading your book for the 4th time now. I have owned it since 2009.

I plan to add 3 Tsp of Baking Soda and a few tablespoon of Seachem Equilbrium at tank startup (when I add 40 gallons to tank plus substrate) This is double the amount I currently Do with my 20 Gallon water changes and it brings my hardness to 5 KH 6 GH. Does that sound reasonable to you?

I do plan to do water changes for the first few weeks (probably 2-3 a week) as my soil is not fully mineralized. I do intend to try to keep 4-6 of my current fish including an SAE that continues to eat algae but i will have to wait 36-48 hours to ensure my setup isn't producing ammonia in readable levels before I take them out of temporary holding back into take.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

*Considering going "Dirted" - help request*



dwalstad said:


> So the tank is a 40 gal breeder? I would read my book as you are switching from high-tech system to a low tech system. You are doing a decent job with the soil factor, but a soil substrate is just one of many variables. (Looks like you've got some good helpers!)
> 
> As plants and soil do the water purification (e.g., ammonia removal, etc), you will need to focus less on filters and massive water changes. If you do small water changes, you should be able to add water hardness chemicals at the same time. My book describes addition of Ca, Mg, and K (p. 87) to increase water hardness. If you are starting from zero GH, you really need a plethora of ions, including Na. I add 1 tsp of Instant Ocean per 10 gal plus extra CaCl2 and KCl to get the water hardness up to a GH = 5. I would consider a GH = 5 as the *minimum* for the general nutrition of most plants.












This is what is in Seachem Equilibrium (used to remineralize RO water) and I would put in 4.3 Tbsp at tank start (when I do my initial 50 percent changes while substrate settles down for few weeks it would be 2 Tbsp as I already do and have maintained 5-6 dGH for a few years now). Also the 3 Tsp of Baking Soda at tank start for KH and 1.5 Tsp at initial water changes.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

According to Rotala Butterfly, if I add 63 grams of Seachem Equilibrium (Just under 4.2 Tbsp) and 20 grams Baking soda (about 5 tsp) to 40 gal (when starting with my 0 KH, 0GH Water)

I will end up at : 7 dGH
81 PPM K
34 PPM Ca
10 PPM Mg

4.5 dKH
36 PPM Na
96 ppm HCO3 (believe this is better understood by just referring to the dKH number though)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The problem with Seachem Equilibrium is that it contains a huge amount of sulfates. ALL the Ca, K, Mg come as a sulfate salts. This works fine for mineral substrates, but for organic substrates which tend to be more anaerobic, many of those sulfates will be converted to H2S via sulfate-reducing bacteria (my book, p. 67). H2S is highly toxic to plant roots, and possibly fish.

If you have a potting soil substrate, better to harden the water with a smattering of chloride salts. That's why my recipe for hardening soft water uses calcium chloride and potassium chloride. A little bit of sulfates is fine, but not a ton. Best to have a mix of sulfates and chlorides as I recommend in my recipe (book page 87).


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Thanks! I will order them now


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> The problem with Seachem Equilibrium is that it contains a huge amount of sulfates. ALL the Ca, K, Mg come as a sulfate salts. This works fine for mineral substrates, but for organic substrates which tend to be more anaerobic, many of those sulfates will be converted to H2S via sulfate-reducing bacteria (my book, p. 67). H2S is highly toxic to plant roots, and possibly fish.
> 
> If you have a potting soil substrate, better to harden the water with a smattering of chloride salts. That's why my recipe for hardening soft water uses calcium chloride and potassium chloride. A little bit of sulfates is fine, but not a ton. Best to have a mix of sulfates and chlorides as I recommend in my recipe (book page 87).


Thanks again! Ordered ... I already have plenty of Epsom salt and Baking soda on hand.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> The problem with Seachem Equilibrium is that it contains a huge amount of sulfates. ALL the Ca, K, Mg come as a sulfate salts. This works fine for mineral substrates, but for organic substrates which tend to be more anaerobic, many of those sulfates will be converted to H2S via sulfate-reducing bacteria (my book, p. 67). H2S is highly toxic to plant roots, and possibly fish.
> 
> If you have a potting soil substrate, better to harden the water with a smattering of chloride salts. That's why my recipe for hardening soft water uses calcium chloride and potassium chloride. A little bit of sulfates is fine, but not a ton. Best to have a mix of sulfates and chlorides as I recommend in my recipe (book page 87).


Thanks one more time, as I said above I have ordered these materials. however, I have come up with a followup question from something in the book.

I have got the following info down from your post and the book, and compared by looking at Rotala Butterfly calculator as well as the Hardness Calculator I built for baking soda / epsom salt for my coffee hobby.

For my 40 g aquarium, using my tap water which is from an unsoftened well but comes out at 0 KH 0 GH:

*4 Teaspoon Instant Ocean (post)*

*15 grams CaCl2* (This should be about 1.3 Tablespoons, which on your book page 87 would call for 40 Teaspoons of Solution that would only be about 0.83 Tablespoons of CaCl2, but starting with a 1 or 2 GH and I am starting at 0. In other words I think using 15g to target 5 dGH from starting at 0 is the same as your goal in the book)

*20 g Baking Soda* (1 tsp per 10 gal) this should be about 4.5 dKH

*3g KCl* (about the 1/2 tsp the book would call for) hits about 10 ppm K

Here is where I come at some sort of discrepancy with the Epsom Salt.

On page 87 you write, "A level tsp of Epsom's Salt in 2 cups of water is a reasonable working solution. This Mg solution when diluted 1:500 in distilled water gave me a GH of 1 to 2."

That would mean, 1 Teaspoon Epsom Salt in 1000 Cups of water GH = 1 to 2. But I am showing that 1 teaspoon in 63 gallons (1000 cups) would be a GH of 0.5. So to add 1 to 2 GH to the 5 I start with after CaCl2 I come up with using 2 tsp of Epsom salt which is *significantly *more than would be used in the solution mentioned. (Would only be about 2/3rds of one teaspoon for the 40 gallons tank).

I came up with the same results on both Rotala Butterfly and my personal coffee hardness calculator (I target dGH of 5 for coffee and built a calculator for Epsom salt addition to any source water based on test results).

I think my starting point would be approx 10 g (should be about 2 tsp) and check GH again now to confirm that it went from 5 dGH to 6-7 dGH.

In the end, I'll get to the right water. Thanks so much for steering me in the right direction, away from Equilibrium. I am sure in the long run I will spend a lot less money on proprietary blends starting with the raw chems! And without frequent water changes, this math will be used extremely rarely!

Seems to be that if I stick around 12-14 g CaCl2 and 12-14 g Epsom Salt, I will end up in the 5-7 dGH range and also be in a 4:1 Ca:Mg ratio, and other than Epsom salt math I think I will have added "Water" to "Substrate" and "Heavily Planted" to things that my tank will match with the book! Finally, if someone followed your directions on page 87 they would know to keep adding more epsom salt until they got that GH to 6 or 7, and in the end the math on how much it took to get there is moot relative to the amount added to reach that target.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

We have liftoff!!

Of course my well water is extremely cloudy now as we have had a "gully washer" of a morning and afternoon here in Central Virginia.

Plan to plant the tank after the kids go to bed this evening and fill the rest of the way. I'll do a few water changes over next couple of days and dial in water parameters when the chemicals arrive Sunday.














(mud with oyster shell)


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Planted. Well water is so cloudy with the rain today. I'll take a pic tomorrow when it's cleared up some.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Looks good! I especially like the coverage of plants, this is what you need for a Walstad tank.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Here it is now, 12 hours after planting. To be honest I really think the cloud is coming from my well water as it looked like that in the buckets as i fill. Shallow well and it rained so hard yesterday that we still have foot deep puddles in the front yard low spots. I'll do ammonia testing tomorrow and water change every other day as it clears up before I add back my couple of tetras and amanos I have in holding tank right now.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Doesn't have to be perfect. When you are going from _very_ soft water with some sodium, even a little addition of natural hardwater should do the trick. The plants will sort out the dosage.

IMHO, you don't need to add chemicals on top of it.

Tank looks like well-planted. I would just relax a little and let nature _tank_ its course.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Doesn't have to be perfect. When you are going from _very_ soft water with some sodium, even a little addition of natural hardwater should do the trick. The plants will sort out the dosage.
> 
> IMHO, you don't need to add chemicals on top of it.
> 
> Tank looks like well-planted. I would just relax a little and let nature _tank_ its course.


Thanks again!
I have added what you recommend in this thread as well as the book (Instant Ocean, baking soda, Epsom salt, KCl and Calcium Chloride), I'll test my dGH and dKH again tonight after I'm sure the tank water has been well mixed. Now I'll let it sit and grow!


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Day 4 post planting. My well water has cleared up from rain runoff bacterial bloom so my 3 water changes this week should clear it right up. Not looking forward to managing floating plants in my air line "corral" when I do those...


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

You don't use the well water for drinking or other household purposes, right?

Bill


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

aquabillpers said:


> You don't use the well water for drinking or other household purposes, right?
> 
> Bill


We are drinking bottled water now with well inspection this week.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

IMHO, if your well is getting pollluted with surface water, you don't need an inspection, you need a better well.

I once rented a house that got its water from a spring. The water was almost always crystal clear but it was polluted. There was a chlorinator installed. The chlorinator did not affect the taste of the water - it was the best I've ever tasted - but on a hot day I'd sometimes drink from the outflow of the spring. That invariavly cause digestive problens, but I kept doing it!

Good luch.

Bill


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

aquabillpers said:


> The water was almost always crystal clear but it was polluted. There was a chlorinator installed. The chlorinator did not affect the taste of the water - it was the best I've ever tasted - but on a hot day I'd sometimes drink from the outflow of the spring. That invariably cause digestive problems, but I kept doing it! Bill


That's an excellent way to fire up your immune system!  My well water sometimes runs brown for a few seconds. But it always tastes good and fish/shrimp don't die.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

This is so far off topic bui . . . 

My immune system is in top-notch shape because of that exposure. I have antibodies to many diseases. When people ask me why I don't usually wear a mask to protect against 
Covid 19, I tell them of this "vaccination", and also of the fact that my immune system sometimes temporariy leaves me to search for and destroy viruses on other people!

Bill


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

My floated plant roots are growing like crazy. I've never enjoyed having floating plants but we'll see this go around. I am on the fence about having a gourami. I've had a couple of the years - basically every time I have floating plants that I like I end up with one. I think for right now I am going to stick to cardinal and ember tetras and sterbai cories.

One lone cardinal and some Amano shrimp in the tank right now, left from my last setup. 14 cardinal friends coming to join her.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looking good! 

BTW, to increase water hardness in my shrimp bowls, where the GH was only 3, I added 1 tsp of oyster grit to the RCS bowl A week later, GH had not changed in the RCS bowl. I was a little surprised that the oyster grit didn't have a noticeable impact. 

Now, I've added my liquid prep (Instant Ocean, CaCl2, KCl) to bring GH to 6 in all tanks and bowls. If I get any stunning results, I will report back!


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Looking good!
> 
> BTW, to increase water hardness in my shrimp bowls, where the GH was only 3, I added 1 tsp of oyster grit to the RCS bowl A week later, GH had not changed in the RCS bowl. I was a little surprised that the oyster grit didn't have a noticeable impact.
> 
> Now, I've added my liquid prep (Instant Ocean, CaCl2, KCl) to bring GH to 6 in all tanks and bowls. If I get any stunning results, I will report back!


Thanks!

I measured a GH of 10 yesterday after I had done the 4 Tsp Instant Ocean which mean it raised my GH about 3. Looks to me from online data it has a lot of Mg and Ca in it. I was thinking of cutting that in half or so (so 25% of total on my next 50 percent water change during this tank break in period) and seeing if I can target 6.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Instant Ocean contains lots of goodies (Ca, Mg, K, etc). Attached is composition taken from my article on hatching brine shrimp. Instant Ocean is similar to other marine salt preparations that mimic seawater. It contains Mg, K, and Ca.

Instant Ocean is a decent way to increase water hardness. I added more KCl and CaCl to the Instant Ocean since these are the ions most in demand by plants, and I wanted to decrease the NaCl proportion. (Not sure this is necessary.)

Please don't worry about bringing your water hardness down from a GH of 10. I had a GH of 13-17 for years and got excellent plant growth. I consider a GH of 5-6 to be the MINIMUM.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Instant Ocean contains lots of goodies (Ca, Mg, K, etc). Attached is composition taken from my article on hatching brine shrimp. Instant Ocean is similar to other marine salt preparations that mimic seawater. It contains Mg, K, and Ca.
> 
> Instant Ocean is a decent way to increase water hardness. I added more KCl and CaCl to the Instant Ocean since these are the ions most in demand by plants, and I wanted to decrease the NaCl proportion. (Not sure this is necessary.)
> 
> Please don't worry about bringing your water hardness down from a GH of 10. I had a GH of 13-17 for years and got excellent plant growth. I consider a GH of 5-6 to be the MINIMUM.


You are far and away one of the most incredible helpful authors and so active on this forum. I really had no idea and I've been watching people like Hoppy, Michael, and Seattle-Aquarist for years. Thank you so much. I am almost done reading the book for the 4th time. I bought a copy on my kindle to go with my 10 year old hard copy so I could have one on both floors of my house. I'll stop sucking up now.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

You've made my day!


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

*Considering going "Dirted" - help request*

Here is the tonight's tank shot vs 3 weeks ago. I have been supplying scoops of floating plants to my dads goldfish pond (isolated in suburban neighborhood patio)!!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Fantastic growth, you've done it!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your photos tell the story! Miraculous recovery!

Burning question. Was this result mainly from your adding 4 teaspoons of Instant Ocean? 

If so, this information would be incredibly useful to the many, many aquarists dealing with soft water problems. It would simplify increasing water hardness. 

Explanation: Hard water in some ways is just dilute ocean water, but I was concerned about the high Na content. But then many plants can handle some Na and might possibly even benefit from it, as long as it doesn't get too high.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> Your photos tell the story! Miraculous recovery!
> 
> Burning question. Was this result mainly from your adding 4 teaspoons of Instant Ocean?
> 
> ...


Is it the sodium or the chlorine that make "salt water" unsuitable for fresh water plants? Or both?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

hoppycalif said:


> Is it the sodium or the chlorine that make "salt water" unsuitable for fresh water plants? Or both?


I was wondering the same question recently (due to KCl dosing) and I stumbled upon this study aimed at Cl toxicity. Results are interesting, toxicity for "aquatic life" depends on the water hardness level (higher hardness decreases Cl toxicity). https://sci-hub.tw/https://setac.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/etc.365

Per this study, sodium is not toxic, but it's rather chloride which is causing problems: 
"Water quality guidelines for chloride are typically derived on the basis of toxicity tests using sodium chloride, because this cationic counter-ion contributes less toxicity than other major cations, such as K, Mg, and Ca [8]. Thus, the Na salt provides the most accurate measure for the toxicity of chloride itself by minimizing the toxicity contributed by the counter cation."

This study confirms the positive impact of water hardness (due to Ca/Mg) to chloride toxicity: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1002/etc.454

I read somewhere (can't recall where unfortunately), that freshwater species are adapted to "natural" ions of Ca and SO4. "Unnatural" ions (Na and Cl) can cause them issues, especially in higher concentrations and when "natural" ions are not present. Exact toxicity levels are species dependant, so it's not possible to say what are safe levels in general. However I would probably stick to the drinking water guidelines and keep chlorides at below 250ppm value (I've seen reports saying that even 400ppm doesn't cause any issues in planted tanks, but they are "anecdotal").


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This is interesting. We are told not to use softened water in our tanks if it has been treated with the typical NaCl household water softener equipment because of Na toxicity. But if one uses KCl in the softener it is OK. Although I follow the traditional advice I've never fully understood it. Can someone clarify?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I don't think NaCl is toxic. It blocks or disrupts nutrient uptake if too high.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

As I understand it, the principle behind these water softeners is that they replace calcium ions in calcium carbonate with sodium (or potassium) ions which are less problematic for plumbing and washing. But does this really affect the safety of the water for aquarium use? Inquiring minds want to know.

Maybe this deserves a separate thread.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Michael said:


> This is interesting. We are told not to use softened water in our tanks if it has been treated with the typical NaCl household water softener equipment because of Na toxicity. But if one uses KCl in the softener it is OK. Although I follow the traditional advice I've never fully understood it. Can someone clarify?


Several years ago one of our experts - Tom - said that water softened with KCl was also very bad for the fish, and we should not use softened water at all unless it is deionized. But, I don't recall anyone reporting problems with KCl softened water.


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Your photos tell the story! Miraculous recovery!
> 
> Burning question. Was this result mainly from your adding 4 teaspoons of Instant Ocean?
> 
> ...


Ms. walstad,

The first shot is from my first planting of the tank (a day after), this is not a valid water test experiment shown in the photos. I have followed the water recommendations from you from the beginning.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Michael said:


> This is interesting. We are told not to use softened water in our tanks if it has been treated with the typical NaCl household water softener equipment because of Na toxicity. But if one uses KCl in the softener it is OK. Although I follow the traditional advice I've never fully understood it. Can someone clarify?


I started a new thread on the discussion of water hardness, chlorides, etc, etc.

But I wanted to address your question with my own "penny toss." K is a macronutrient, so plants will take it up and use it for growth. In contrast, Na interferes (competes) with K uptake and just accumulates in the tissues to no good use, surely throwing off ionic and osmolarity balances within the plant's cells. Thus, water softeners that generate K are less likely to cause problems and may even be helpful to plants by providing them with a major nutrient. (That said, I've never had a water softener and have not researched this question.)


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## Doc7 (Feb 27, 2017)

Did first trim at 5 weeks today, here is before and after. I replanted as much as I could physically fit in the substrate. I'll be topping and then shipping off bottoms and replacing tops next time.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Tank looks great!


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