# chlorine, chloramine and plants.



## Evil-Lynn

We all know the adverse effects these substances have on fish, but are they as bad for plants? could a plant die from water that hasn't been dechlorinated?


----------



## fishorama

I often rinse new plants & may soak them a short time (overnight) in chlorinated tap water without problems. No longer term experiences.


----------



## TAB

If its safe for your to drink, I can't see it harming plants.


----------



## Evil-Lynn

thank you


----------



## Diana K

Do not go by the "if it is safe for you..." argument. 
Chlorine and chloramine, in the doses used in water treatment are safe for mammals, but not for fish. Neither fish nor mammals are plants. 

I have filled my pond, no fish at the time, but lots of plants, and not added dechlor. This suggests that some aquatic plants do not seem to mind. Most of the plants are water lettuce and duck weed, some Myriophyllum, a couple of Water Lilies. Other plants are grown in a bog setting, leaves above the water, roots in peat moss. Calla and Canna Lily, Japanese Iris, Water Mint, Ribbon Grass, Cyperus sp., In the water, but leaves out of the water include Lizard Tail, Taro, Water Cress. 
In the back of my mind, though are some old house plant books that suggest aging the water overnight to get rid of the chlorine for certain house plants. 
Gardens in my area are irrigated with treated tap water from about April through October, and the plants are fine. These are of course land plants.


----------



## Philosophos

I'll second that one. The LD50 for many plants and fish are well below North American and European max chlorine/chloramine levels for tap. Use your water conditioner, aeration, overnight stands etc. depending on which one you've got.

-Philosophos


----------



## clearleaf

I agree to a certain extent with Diana and Philos. When googling for certain aquarium plant topics I stumble across orchid or hydroponic forums, and it would appear that some of the specialty 'land lubber' gardeners also prefer to work with dechlorinated water.

However to be a stickler to the original question, I really doubt chlorinated water will *kill* plants. I mean, unless you're injecting chlorine into the water, or just letting tap water run over it for several days (oy! the bills!) otherwise the 24 hrs or so it takes to gas off...unless it's a really delicate plant, I doubt it would *kill *it.

P.S. I'm officially coining 'land lubber gardeners' I think...


----------



## Philosophos

The issue here is a hard one to nail down. The LD50 with fish is far lower than plants; this tends to be the chronic issue. For plant keepers, shrimp become a further concern. Pinning down plants becomes a species-specific issue very rapidly (check out iron consumption and the rate carbon is sucked up through the roots vs. as CO2). On top of that, chlorine, much as copper, becomes an issue of chronic toxicity for plants, much as Cu or Pb toxicity in humans can be chronic.

In short, i'd say that a little chlorine now and then won't hurt plants so much as fish. Plants will take longer to respond, and the issue of chloramine vs. chlorine comes in as well.

Speaking purely from my experience with chlorinated tap water, you can get away with a little now and then when it comes to plants. I used to do the odd chlorinated 5-10% top-off with things like blue rams when I was new to the hobby. I'm not sure the fish were eager, but they didn't visibly suffer. At the same time, the algae dissipated at a greater rate after the top-off than they did after a 20-30% water change. While it may not have zeroed out the growth for algae, it was retardant enough to allow my simple bacopas, anubias and java fern to better compete. 

-Philosophos


----------



## ashappard

clearleaf said:


> ..unless it's a really delicate plant...


but plants don't like it. You'll have a healthier tank and a better chance of controlling algae if you only add stuff to the tank that is good for it. </2cents>


----------



## Philosophos

It's the dose that makes the poison. Excel is essentially glutaraldehyde when you get around the trade names. It's cidex sold at 4x the cost or more. It's biocidal, effective enough at 100% concentration to turn your skin in to goo. At the right concentration, it kills algae and bacteria, and increases the hatch rate of some fish and inverts.

I think what we need here is some good research. All I've got is toxicity for some weeds few people keep, under conditions nobody keeps their fish tanks in. They serve as a pointless early warning, given that fish are even more sensitive. I could put them forth as relevant and absolute, but I've seen enough bad comparisons of this sort passed off, even from otherwise reputable sources. Stuff like this comes to mind.

-Philosophos


----------



## gdevil

Hi, I've been making my water change whit 100% tap water directly form de tap to the aquarium, this didn't seem to bother neither the plants or the fish...

Also both of them seems to like this, since the water is colder than the one in the aquarium seem to appear that the difference are good for them since the fhis star to courtship and the plants begin to bubble...

Regards


----------



## lilypotter2009

Chloramines are a combination of chlorine and a small amount of ammonia. Chloramines have been used safely in the USA and Canada for many years. EPA accepts chloramines as a disinfectant and as a way to avoid THM formation. Were it not for some kind of disinfectant in drinking water, disease-causing organisms such as typhoid and cholera could be carried in your drinking water. Chloraminated water is safe for bathing, drinking, cooking and all uses we have for water every day. However, there are two groups of people who need to take special care with chloraminated water: kidney dialysis patients and fish owners. 
Chloramines are harmful when they go directly into the bloodstream, as happens in kidney dialysis. Fish also take chloramines directly into their bloodstreams. That's why chloramines must be removed from water that goes into kidney dialysis machines or is used in fish tanks and ponds. 
So plants may not have effects using chloramine or chlorine.


----------



## Philosophos

gdevil said:


> Hi, I've been making my water change whit 100% tap water directly form de tap to the aquarium, this didn't seem to bother neither the plants or the fish...
> 
> Also both of them seems to like this, since the water is colder than the one in the aquarium seem to appear that the difference are good for them since the fhis star to courtship and the plants begin to bubble...
> 
> Regards


The cold, fresh water is simulating spring run-off from melting snow and/or the rainy season, and will encourage many different kinds of fish to spawn. The high agitation from dumping the water in will add air, which means both CO2 and O2 increase in a non-CO2 tank. In a tank running CO2, there's a comparative loss of CO2 but a gain of O2. From there, the heavy saturation causes the O2 provided by the plants to bubble and float to the surface, rather than dissolving.

None of these things are directly related to chlorine or chloramine, and neither negate the effects they typically have on fish or plants.

With chlorine, sometimes a vigorous pour from the tap and dump in to the tank gasses off a large part of it, which for you may be enough to avoid negative side effects. While not exactly good science, I've observed the effect my self by drinking water poured gently from a tap, compared to water poured rapidly and shaken well. The agitated one tasted far less of chlorine.

In the case of chloramine, which I'm guessing you probably don't have in your supply, nothing gasses off. The chemical stays in the water until it is chemically removed. Chloramine has a far worse reputation in the hobby.

-Philosophos


----------



## SniperLk

Evil-Lynn said:


> We all know the adverse effects these substances have on fish, but are they as bad for plants? could a plant die from water that hasn't been dechlorinated?


It depends highly on the water you're using. Nevertheless I don't think any tap water could killed plants since chlorine evaporates quite fast and most of plants can recover even when you think they won't.



Philosophos said:


> I'll second that one. The LD50 for many plants and fish are well below North American and European max chlorine/chloramine levels for tap. Use your water conditioner, aeration, overnight stands etc. depending on which one you've got.
> -Philosophos


About American and European max chlorine levels for tap, I can say that here in france, chloramines are currently never used for water treatment (it's forbidden). And in paris, the average level of chlorine found in the tap water was about 0.25mg/L for 2008.
I think I read once that's not a lot compared to what we can find in North America, am I right ?

Anyway I don't know any french aquascapers who are using dechlor everytime they do a WC.


----------



## Philosophos

Ya, .25 is low compared to the .4ppm US EPA max. I can't remember what the regulations are back home in Canada, and I imagine there are worse creatures in the tap water to fear from Mexico. If I only had to deal with .25 ppm chlorine, I'd probably be happy with an agressive pour in to a bucket, and leaving the water stand overnight if I didn't want to dechlor.

I tend to be a purist with my water; I'm soon flipping to tap for the first time rather than pure RO with custom nutrients, and I'll actually be bothering the water company for their yearly min/max/avg levels of everything they test for.

I like to think of tap water as the biggest uncontrolled variable in the tank, with the biggest impact. Entire fert dosing regimens can change based on 1ppm PO4 coming from a new farm in the right place, or Cu leaching in from old rusty pipes.

-Philosophos


----------



## SniperLk

Philosophos said:


> Ya, .25 is low compared to the .4ppm US EPA max. I can't remember what the regulations are back home in Canada, and I imagine there are worse creatures in the tap water to fear from Mexico. If I only had to deal with .25 ppm chlorine, I'd probably be happy with an agressive pour in to a bucket, and leaving the water stand overnight if I didn't want to dechlor.
> 
> I tend to be a purist with my water; I'm soon flipping to tap for the first time rather than pure RO with custom nutrients, and I'll actually be bothering the water company for their yearly min/max/avg levels of everything they test for.
> 
> I like to think of tap water as the biggest uncontrolled variable in the tank, with the biggest impact. Entire fert dosing regimens can change based on 1ppm PO4 coming from a new farm in the right place, or Cu leaching in from old rusty pipes.
> 
> -Philosophos


Well 0.4ppm is not that big, I thought it was more than 1ppm.. And like I said 0.25ppm is just an average, but it goes from 0.1ppm to 0.4ppm. Personally I do only 30% WC, with half of RO water, so I don't really mind about chlorine.. Moreover when I'm adding tap water I have to first fill a can, then pouring it into the tank, so I hope some chlorine evaporates during that process.

Edit : I found there that the max level is 4mg/L and not 0.4 ?!?
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html#1


----------



## Philosophos

Oops, that' should've read 4ppm. And yes, double pouring will help a lot. I'm not sure how low it would gas off to then. This might be a topic worth looking in to further, maybe with some test kits to see just how much chlorine is left after double pouring various controlled levels of chlorine.

-Philosophos


----------



## Enviroplasticity

gdevil said:


> Hi, I've been making my water change whit 100% tap water directly form de tap to the aquarium, this didn't seem to bother neither the plants or the fish...
> 
> Also both of them seems to like this, since the water is colder than the one in the aquarium seem to appear that the difference are good for them since the fhis star to courtship and the plants begin to bubble...
> 
> Regards


That's because Mexican tap water differers greatly from US tap water. From my experiences in 
Mexico, much of the tap water there isn't potable. I can only assume there are minimal additives if any at all.


----------



## Rosebud1920

TAB said:


> If its safe for your to drink, I can't see it harming plants.


This is absolutely not correct. We can handle the minerals, fluoride and chlorine/chloramines and in fact without the chlorine we could become quite ill from dozens of issues. Fluoride - there are many plants that react quite badly from such as spider plants, dracaena, orchids, peace Lily, and there is a long list of these sensitive plants. The vast majority of plants don’t like either chemical. Some can tolerate it better without noticeable symptoms but they won’t ever develop to their prime capacity of growth.
And getting rid of chlorine/chloramines is not as easy as setting a bucket out in the sunshine anymore. You could do that 40-50 years before chloramines became necessary due to potential leaks in our aging water grid and main supply system of our systems and even the ever increasing disease pressure that makes it more important that the water is as safe as possible. Also, for people who fill bottles of water and let it sit for months just in case the water supply is cut off — you can think chloramines for helping that water stay safe for a longer period of time. Chloramines are much more stable and is active much longer— it can’t be broken down by a shallow container of water sitting in the sun and being agitated to release the chlorine gases over a period of 24-72 hours. 40-50 years ago, when I raised tropical fish (angels and bettas) and had 6 big tanks in my home — I filled large galvanized tubs and put fish oxygenator pumps in them so the agitation could go on day and night. Then I ran it through all kinds of filtering material and then boiled on the stove before cooling and putting back in the tank. I put it in closeable buckets and boiled it right before needing it for twnk changes or top offs. If you just sat a narrow top bucket out in the sun (3-5 gallon) and didn’t agitate the water — it takes much longer for the chlorine to evaporate. However, today with chloramines it’s a different ballgame. All municipalities now use (chlorine and a type of ammonia) which keeps it from breaking down and letting us get sick — you can sit a container out in your yard and it might be 2-3 weeks plus to reduce the levels. You can buy a good quality set of chlorine test strips to see where your post levels are and then after 24 hours, 36 hours,etc. Don’t buy the cheapest you can get. That’s the only way to be sure water from any RO system or so called inline hose filters is operating. Same with using a TDS meter when seeing if your RO system is removing the minerals it needs to so you can more effectively fertilize your potted plants, or those used with hydroponics. It’s not that plants don’t want the minerals, just the opposite. They critically need NPK (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium) along with secondary of calcium and magnesium, and the micronutrients/minerals but they need them in the right amounts and correct ratios. So you start with 0 and add what is needed. Or you test your water for hardness, pH, and use a fertilizer appropriate. You do this by sending a sample to somewhere like JR Peters Laboratory (who develops many different types of plant fertilizers (commercial). Meaning they know plants — any water lab can test your water and give you the numbers. But these labs aren’t horticulturally or agriculturally trained or based to know what types of plants or crops you grow need. Someone like JR Peters - they test your water (well, municipality tap, spring, pond, etc etc ) and can advise what to do to make it safe for the plants, and useable in determining the best plant growth using that particular water — this includes but isn’t limited to the best type of fertilizer that works with that crop. If you are using fertilizer meant to be used with pure water and you are using tap water at various pH levels and various levels of minerals - you are behind the 8 ball. Same with plants that need way more potassium like hibiscus and you are using a Klite fertilizer (potassium light or not existent in the mix). Our world would better shape and people would have more money in their pockets and they would be happier with their results if they just tested their water sources and their soil. Soil tests is critical — you can’t really tell what you have if it’s not scientifically tested. Oh you can guess if your hydrangeas are deep purple that you have highly acidic soil (4-4.5) or that if pretty pink - the soil is more alkaline with a pH close to neutral or slightly above ie. 6.5-7.2 maybe a smidge higher. If your lawn soil is 4.5 — you won’t have pretty grass. And if it’s not getting calcium and magnesium along with appropriate levels of nitrogen — it’s not going to be healthy. You can fertilize til the cows come home but without proper pH you are throwing money out the window. And stop killing your clover — it fixes nitrogen in the soil to where you don’t need as much nitrogen fertilizer. Believe me it works. If you don’t like the size of white dutch clover or the blooms sticking up — use the specialty micro clovers.

now I know we are talking about aquatic plants but if it’s sensitive to fluoride and chlorine/chloramines— then no you don’t want to just use tap water just because you don’t keel over from drinking it. If you have a well that needs frequent heavy chlorine shocking - you might have an issue too. It’s the same issue if you are adding fish to the fountain, aquatic garden, etc.They will not be happy in water that’s not the appropriate pH and then has all this fluoride and chloramines in it which can reduce their health and end up killing them.


----------

