# [Wet Thumb Forum]-How long for a plant to recover from a deficiency?



## captain (May 12, 2006)

I have recently discovered that I had a Ca, Mg deficiency. The tap water is soft 1degree GH. My test kit always showed a tank GH of 6ish but the plants said otherwise. So now I have started using Seachem's Equiliburium to up my GH and I want to know is what will happen to the leaves that showed signs of distress. Do the leaves recover or will they have to be pruned? For instance, My java fern has many leaves with yellow spots. Will the yellow spots go away or should I prune them and make way for new growth.

As an aside, now that I am using Equilibrium which contains K (20% by weight) I am not sure if I should continue to the KSO4 that I have been using. The issue is the amount of S I am adding to the tank. KSO4 was adding the S I needed but if I stop adding KSO4 I'll stop adding S. Not sure what I should do. The tap water does contain about 9ppm of Sulfur (not sure what form) according to info given to me by my water company. If I do continue to add KSO4 and use Equilibrium then I will be adding a lot of K. With just the Equilibrium I raise the tank K be at least 30ppm or so.

Thanks,

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

I have recently discovered that I had a Ca, Mg deficiency. The tap water is soft 1degree GH. My test kit always showed a tank GH of 6ish but the plants said otherwise. So now I have started using Seachem's Equiliburium to up my GH and I want to know is what will happen to the leaves that showed signs of distress. Do the leaves recover or will they have to be pruned? For instance, My java fern has many leaves with yellow spots. Will the yellow spots go away or should I prune them and make way for new growth.

As an aside, now that I am using Equilibrium which contains K (20% by weight) I am not sure if I should continue to the KSO4 that I have been using. The issue is the amount of S I am adding to the tank. KSO4 was adding the S I needed but if I stop adding KSO4 I'll stop adding S. Not sure what I should do. The tap water does contain about 9ppm of Sulfur (not sure what form) according to info given to me by my water company. If I do continue to add KSO4 and use Equilibrium then I will be adding a lot of K. With just the Equilibrium I raise the tank K be at least 30ppm or so.

Thanks,

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Leaves damaged by calcium deficiency will not recover. Often with calcium deficiency the growing tip of a stem plant will die and the stem will later branch at a lower point. Once that happens the stem can be pruned above the branch. If the stem does not die, then the deficient leaves can be left where they are.

Plants can recover from chlorosis (yellowing) due to magnesium deficiency, but not from necrosis. The plant will not regrow dead leaf tissue. Leaves that have been effected by necrosis can be removed if they're an aesthetic problem.


Roger Miller


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## wetmanNY (Feb 1, 2003)

I do sometimes run a calcium-deficient system. Signs for me are the bent central rib of new Java Fern leaves, cupped or puckered leaf surfaces and crimped or scalloped leafblade outlines. As always, signs of deficiency are in the new growth. On the other hand, toxicity more characteristically builds up in mature growth and shows its symptoms there.

Yellow spots in leaves might also just show aging and various stresses.

High levels of magnesium and potassium (i.e. low Ca/Mg and Ca/K ratios) may affect the plants' uptake of calcium and result in apparent Ca deficiency. (Isn't that generally accepted and non-controversial?)

If a test registers about 6 degrees of GH, why would the appearance of the leaves make one doubt the test result? If a GH test result of about 6 degrees were combined with symptoms of Ca deficiency in young growth, why wouldn't one suspect instead that Mg or K or both were too high, in proportion to Ca, for proper calcium uptake?


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

First let me reiterate that my tap has very little Ca (~17ppm) and virtually no Mg (~1.5ppm). Numbers are from the water people. So for the past few months my 40% water changes and not adding these elements have resulted if very low Ca and Mg. The signs I have seen from the plants are:
1) The Java fern has yellow spots on old leaves and new growth has been slow. 
2) The new val shoots are small and very twisted. 
3) The old leaves on the ozelot are discolored and distorted. Yellow patches and cupped leaves.
4) yellow spots on older anubias nana leaves.
5) new leaf on anubias barteri has scalloped edges unlike the older leaves.

Since there is some calcium in the tap I may just be showing signs of a Mg deficiency. The symptoms are similiar to both as far as I have read.

I have started adding Equilibrium and that seems to be addressing the situation but it has only been 1.5 weeks since I started and it is hard to know at this point.

Here is where I think the test kit may be wrong on the GH. I have noticed that Equilibrium raises the GH much more than stated on the bottle with respect to the AP GH test kit (taking into account that on the seachem bottle it uses meq/L instead of ppm or degrees). It seems to me that the K in Equilibrium throws off the GH reading, giving me a higer reading that it should. However, I have not tested with just KSO4 to see if that along raises the GH. I plan to when I get a chance. I have been adding KSO4 for a couple of months now and I am wondering if that has given me an artifically high GH reading.

So now I am perplexed and not sure how to adjust my fertilizer regiment. Something is definitly not right. I want to give the right ratio of Ca, Mg, K so your help is greatly appreciated! What are the right proportions of these three elements? I have seen that a ratio of 3 or 4 to 1 for Ca:Mg but I don't think I have seen anything about K. I may be overdosing K now with the equilibrium.

Thanks,

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

A little off topic but, what are you adding for traces/iron? and how much?
I have had a similar problem in the past and uping the traces/iron has solved it! Just a though!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> 1) The Java fern has yellow spots on old leaves and new growth has been slow.


Yellow spots could be magnesium deficiency or a number of other things. That and slow growth are not very diagnostic.



> quote:
> 
> 2) The new val shoots are small and very twisted.


Could be a calcium deficiency. Vals are sensitive to calcium deficiency.



> quote:
> 
> 3) The old leaves on the ozelot are discolored and distorted. Yellow patches and cupped leaves.


Symptoms appearing first on older leaves are not calcium deficiency. I don't think magnesium deficiency distorts the leaves. Could be normal aging of the leaves; could be damage (do you have any plecos?); could be a deficiency of a mobile nutrient, including magnesium.



> quote:
> 
> 4) yellow spots on older anubias nana leaves.


My first inclination is to look for damage rather than deficiency. If not damage, then possibly a magnesium deficiency. Not calcium.



> quote:
> 
> 5) new leaf on anubias barteri has scalloped edges unlike the older leaves.


This might be a normal variation.



> quote:
> 
> Since there is some calcium in the tap I may just be showing signs of a Mg deficiency. The symptoms are similiar to both as far as I have read.


The symptoms of Ca and Mg deficiency are not similar. Calcium deficiency causes distorted *new* growth and the death of growing tips. I think magnesium deficiency causes interveinal chlorosis and necrotic spots on *old* leaves. That bit is from memory, so correct me if I'm wrong.



> quote:
> 
> It seems to me that the K in Equilibrium throws off the GH reading, giving me a higer reading that it should.


Potassium does not effect hardness. If your test kit is reading high, then it's just a bad test kit. You might try getting a different hardness kit. I've always found the Tetra GH kit to be pretty dependable.



> quote:
> 
> I want to give the right ratio of Ca, Mg, K so your help is greatly appreciated! What are the right proportions of these three elements?


Calcium should be higher than magnesium. The actual ratio is not critical. I had apparent magnesium deficiencies with 1 mg/l of magnesium in my tap water. I think I dosed with epson salt for 5 mg/l and the symptoms disappeared very quickly. Maybe 3 was all that was needed.

I don't know of any hard guidance on the ratio of potassium to calcium or magnesium. When Steve Dixon in San Francisco tested fairly high potassium levels -- up to 60 mg/l if I remember right -- he did it in water with very little calcium and had no problems. I think I inadvertently ran my tanks up to about that level for a year or so. I think the hydroponics literature will tell you that high potassium levels will block uptake of Ca and Mg, but I've never heard of that happening in an aquarium. I'd worry more over high magnesium than high potassium.

You don't need to have a world of potassium in your water. I think 5 mg/l is probably enough, though that may vary with the nature of your substrate. That same statement applies to magnesium. The minimum that you need in your water probably depends on your substrate.

Roger Miller


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## imported_Allen (Feb 14, 2003)

As I understand from the deficiency tables on chuck gadd's webby, there are both mobile and immobile nutrients... Which is why some deficiencies show on older leaves, while others show on new leaves... Am I correct to assume that deficiencies due to immobile nutrients will not recover (even after the deficiency is removed), while the those due to mobile nutrients will?

Allen 
============
Allen's Tank Pics.
============


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

Ok lots of questions to answer.

ekim, yes I do dose trace and iron. I use plantex for trace, 1ml 3xweek (1Tblspoon/250ml I think). There is some iron in the plantex and I also dose Seachem iron 1-2ml 3x a week. I hope I am adding the right amount.

As for Roger's questions and observations.



> quote:
> 
> Yellow spots could be magnesium deficiency or a number of other things. That and slow growth are not very diagnostic.


Taken with the symptoms of the other plants there appears to be a deficiency. Since adding the Seachem equilibrium I have noticed more new leaves sprouting. I have about a dozen new ones that have popped up recently. I haven't seen growth like that out of them ever.



> quote:
> 
> Symptoms appearing first on older leaves are not calcium deficiency. I don't think magnesium deficiency distorts the leaves. Could be normal aging of the leaves; could be damage (do you have any plecos?); could be a deficiency of a mobile nutrient, including magnesium.


I don't have any plecs. It seems that most symptoms are pointing to Mg. Tap water has virtually none and I haven't been adding any.



> quote:
> 
> My first inclination is to look for damage


Anubias leaves are not damaged.



> quote:
> 
> This might be a normal variation.


Possible. I haven't had this plant long enough to know its growth characteristics.

I did some tests with my GH kit and I think it is not working. I can't take a good reading with it. Can't tell when the color changes. I'll buy a new one.

Do you think about 17ppm of Ca is enough? If it is then I can just add some epson salt to make up for the Mg and I think I'll be good.

Thanks for the input!

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Am I correct to assume that deficiencies due to immobile nutrients will not recover (even after the deficiency is removed), while the those due to mobile nutrients will?


The plant as a whole can recover from deficiencies and resume new growth regardless of whether the deficient nutrient is mobile or not, but the tissue effected by the deficiency may not be able to recover.

I think you're right that leaves can't recover from a deficiency in an immobile element. In the case of calcium, for instance, the deformity caused by calcium deficiency happens because the plant doesn't have enough calcium to build the cell walls for developing cells. Once the cells are fully developed it's too late for the plant to fix the problem.

Chlorosis caused by deficiency in a mobile nutrient is something that leaves can recover from. They regenerate chlorophyll regularly and become chlorotic (yellow) when the nutrients necessary to generate or regenerate the chlorophyll are deficient. If the deficient nutrient later returns to sufficient levels then the plant can return to normal generation and regeneration of chlorophyll and the chlorosis goes away.

Leaves can't recover from necrosis. They remove mobile elements from old leaves to fuel new growth. New growth is normally much more productive than old growth, so the plant usually comes out ahead in the transfer even if it can't recover 100% of the mobile nutrient. If they remove too much of the mobile nutrient then the old tissue dies. Usually bit by bit, either starting from the tip and working back or from holes that gradually expand. That tissue, once dead is never regenerated. Those old, depleted leaves are usually dropped.

The break down between mobile and immobile nutrients is useful for diagnosis, but it isn't perfect. For instance, calcium is used by plants as an electrolyte, as a permanent part of the cell wall structure, and for a few other things. As an electrolyte it is highly mobile in the plant. As a component of cell walls it is completely immobile. Other nutrients (iron for instance) may be mobile in some plants, but not in others.

The nutrients that plants keep as electrolytes -- potassium, part of the magnesium and part of the calcium -- are *extremely* mobile. So mobile that the plant can't keep them from leaking out. The electrolytes must always be present in the water around the plants. If they aren't there to start with then the plant will put them there, and nutrient deficiencies will ensue.

Roger Miller


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

Ok how is the following as a plan to address my situation. Since the tap is low GH and KH I'll put a small amount of crushed coral or arogonite(sp) sand in the filter. This will stabalize my KH and add Ca. Is there an advantages or disadvantages to one form or the other? For Mg I'll just dose epson salt. Does that sound reasonable?

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## Paulo Pinheiro (Feb 11, 2003)

A question for Roger, who seems to be very well connected with plant physiology. I know you already gave me an answer in an older post but this topic made me wonder...

I have an aquarium set up for 4 months now. In the beggining, despite some algae, everything was growing well. Then, suddenly, some plants started dying. More preciselly, the growth tips started to die and falling off!!! (hemianthus micranthemoides, bacopa caroliniana). Rotala rotundifolia got very weird growth tips, got a pale green/yelow color, Vals got thin redish new leaves and stopped growing. Only plant growing was ceratopteris (actually taking over the tank) Hetheranthera zoosterifolia is stunted and with lots of dark leaves. Even more weird; two or three stems of rotala shaded by the ceratopteris look fine and a small patch of hemianthus was miraculously saved and kept on growing

By that time the changes that could have done this were:

- change in the chemistry of the tap water (since the well collapsed and they had to make a new well to suply the village)
- One 10.000K bulb was replaced with one 5300K (though the 10.000K was the source for algae...)
-was not adding macros (low fosh load)

Three weeks ago I:
-changed back to the 10.000K bulb
-got rid of the big ceratopteris, but left two small ones
-started adding macros (K, N, P) together with the regular routine of my own mix of TMG, now suplemented with ascorbic acid

But things don't seem to be getting much better...

Should I try to add calcium?
Do you have any ideas/sugestions

Tank: 65 gal, 140 W Fluorescent light (1x 3000K, 2x 6500, 1x10.000K, gravel/laterite/aquaculture clay balls substrate with heating cable, pH 7.5-8.0, DIY CO2 with reactor (never tested for anything else)

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paulo Pinheiro

Allen's rule: when everything fails read the instructions!!!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Paulo,

Most nutrient deficiency problems are caused by a deficiency in more than one nutrient. That makes it very difficult to diagnose some problems.

The symptoms you describe sound like they may be nutrient deficiencies -- especially calcium. Despite the similarity to calcium deficiency, I tend to look for a shortage of macro nutrients first. Certainly three weeks should be long enough to see an effect from your macronutrient dosing, so perhaps it is time to look for other causes. I suggest four things:

1) Consider whether your macro dosing might have been too low to solve a severe problem. If so, then increase the dosing.

2) Check your GH and try to get a water analysis from your water supplier. In additional to calcium and magnesium, the concentrations of sodium and potassium could also be important. A low calcium concentration, or a high ratio of sodium, magnesium or even potassium to calcium might cause problems.

3) If your water analysis shows little or no boron, then make sure that your DIY TMG includes a *small* amount of boron. Your aquarium should not have more than .5 ppm.

4) There is at least one dependable report of toxicity from plastics in an aquarium with symptoms that looked like a calcium deficiency. You might look at any plastic parts you have submersed in the aquarium -- especially soft plastic or rubber parts. If the parts show erosion or hardening then they may be a problem. You would need to remove those parts, do a major water change and dose your fertilizers back up to good levels.


Good luck,
Roger Miller


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## Paulo Pinheiro (Feb 11, 2003)

What puzzles me Roger, is that algae do not grow at all in my supposedly unbalanced aquarium...

Also, a lot of small snails that I have appear dead floating at the surface. No p+rob to the fish, though...

Could it actually be an excess of sodium? I add sodium nitrate since I can't get potassium nitrate yet and my water is most probably very hard (have never tested but I can tell by the deposits on the glassware.

Paulo

Allen's rule: when everything fails read the instructions!!!


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## Paulo Pinheiro (Feb 11, 2003)

OK, they say a picture is worth a thousand words so here are a few pics showing what I mean.

Two shoots of rotala rotundifolia previously shaded by a large ceratopteris:









and the rest of the stems (don't look like the same plant, do they?):









The dying tops of hemianthus micranthemoides that I replanted and of bacopa caroliniana (the tips just... fall off):

















the new, almost transparent growth of valisneria:










But the apparently healthy and vigorous growht of ceratopteris and egeria:


















What the hell...

Paulo

Allen's rule: when everything fails read the instructions!!!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Paulo,

I've grown val that looked like that. When I dosed it with iron (iron gluconate tablets quartered and the pieces pushed into the substrate below the plant) the plant turned green but remained small. When I added a fertilizer with phosphate the plants resumed normal growth.

I've never had a similar problem with H. micranthemoides. I have seen bacopa do that back when my water was soft with high sodium. The same thing might be true with H. zosterifolia. The top picture of R. rotundifolia looks healthy. The second photo shows the color of plants that are heavily shaded. Shading won't cause stunting, so a nutrient problem seems likely.

The plants you picture seem to be showing multiple problems, so all I can give you is a shotgun approach. The fact that some plants show problems while other don't is not unusual. Different plants have very different abilities to get and use nutrients.

Mineral deposits on your glasses means that you have minerals in your water. It doesn't always mean that you have a lot of calcium and magnesium. I really, really encourage you to get and use GH and KH test kits. Personally I prefer the Tetra kits.

If your GH is low and the water has KH a lot higher than GH you might have a problem with too much sodium. There could also be a problem if both KH and GH are low, but I've never seen that one. Problems with sodium never happen when using unsoftened river or lake water. The problem happens with softened water and with well water supplies. It's an unusual problem, but not rare. 

Adding sodium nitrate probably wouldn't create a problem that wasn't ready to happen anyway. Plants don't use sodium. If your water changes are small or infrequent then the sodium from the sodium nitrate can accumulate and make a marginal problem worse. A good water change schedule would prevent that sodium from building up. 

You should also try increasing your dose of micronutrients, or maybe falling back to a commercial feritilizer like TMG to see if that fixes some problems. You can also try substrate dosing -- like adding pieces of iron tablets to the substrate below sick plants.

Your plants in the photos look like they are getting enough nitrogen and potassium. If they didn't then their new leaves would be yellow and older leaves would be dying back (nitrogen shortage), or the older leaves would be yellowing, developing holes and falling off (potassium shortage). It is hard to diagnose a phosphorus shortage. Small growth -- like your val -- is one symptom, but the same symptom can be caused by other problems. You can use pieces of fertilizer spikes like Jobes spikes to give sick plants a large, direct dose.

If you want to diagnose the problem then you will need to make your changes one at a time and about 3 weeks apart. From my experience that is about how long it takes to know if you have done something right. If your less interested in knowing exactly what the problem is then you can make changes all at once.


Good luck,
Roger Miller


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## Paulo Pinheiro (Feb 11, 2003)

Thanks Roger for the nice dissection of the pictures. But actually the two good looking stems of rotala are the ones that WERE shaded by ceratopteris... I'll try incresing the micros as you sugested but my mix is exactly the same as TMG except that I don't know how much of each chelator is in the comercial mix, so I took a rough estimate as to what would be necessary.

I'm dosing also micros ( 1 ppm NO3 and 0.1 ppm PO4 added every two days plus the double of this at each water change. Algae are no where to be seen, so I guess I'l increase fertilization a bit. light is 144W so it should be enough. Just painted the inside of the hood white, that should help a bit, but still considering one more 36 W fluorescent. I wont add any more plants untill I figure the whole thing out. Then I will plant it the way its meant to be.

One thing I notice is that the ceratopteris responds very quikly to new water with added fertilizers and grows unmeasurably large. Think I must get rid of it, it may be sucking all nutrients out of the water.

Once again, thanks for the insights.

Paulo

Allen's rule: when everything fails read the instructions!!!


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