# Fish Breeding Setups with Plants



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Just posted new article 'Small-Scale Guppy Breeding' on my website: https://dianawalstad.com/ It's mainly about raising Guppies, but seems like people are more interested in the plants than the fish!

Article includes pictures of tanks with potted plants. Attached is one photo. I don't have any filters, just a glass tube that slowly releases large bubbles from an air pump. I decided to finally cut the cord and try raising the fish without filters. It works great! I haven't measured any ammonia or nitrite in the 8 tanks, and the fish are very healthy.

Because I depend on the plants, all tanks have fast-growing plants: Bacopa caroliniana, Vallisneria spiralis, Sagittaria graminae, S. subulata, Hornwort, Frogbit, Duckweed, Water Shield, Water Sprite, Water Lettuce. The only "special" plant is the "Compacta," a dwarf variety of the Amazon Swordplant, from Florida Aquatic Plant nurseries. It's a fast-growing Amazon Swordplant that actually fits in 5 and 10 gal tanks.


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## Dude (Nov 14, 2018)

Interesting article, especially since guppies are one of the two types of fish I keep.

I hope it's not considered off-topic to ask this here, but since you've got a good deal of experience in raising guppies maybe you can help me figure out what's going on with one of my tanks that can't seem to keep guppies alive for more than a few weeks.

I can go into more detail about the tank's history if necessary, but for now I'll _try_ to keep it short. Standard 29 gallon tank with guppies descended from feeders bought over a decade prior, and some corydoras. Things were going fine, then the tank sprung a leak. Fortunately I had a spare 10 gallon tank to hold them in until I repaired it. Unfortunately I'm lazy and it took longer than it should have and they were in there for about two weeks. I wasn't using the filter from the 29 gallon because I thought it would be way too much flow for such a small tank. I did try to keep it wet, but probably not as well as I should have. Ammonia got quite high, 8 ppm I think, but not one fish died and there were a good number of babies in there.

With the 29 gallon tank completely empty I thought it would be a good time to try a different substrate than the plain sand I was previously using. I chose Eco-Complete and covered it with the old sand. That sand had been sitting damp in a bucket and I've been thinking this might be the main issue.

After putting everything back in all of the guppies died over the next few weeks and months. It started with the larger females. Then one by one the males died. The last to go were the babies. The longest survived probably about four months. During that time I changed the filter (with carbon), and increased water changes. Nothing helped. Before dying the guppies had no external signs of distress or illness. They ate and were as active as ever. A few times I did happen to observe them right before they died and they were swimming very erratically and bending a lot before eventually sinking.

Over the next year I've tried adding more from another tank several times with the same results. The females dying within days and babies lasting a few months at most. There is one male that's been in there for about 6 months now.

That's partly what has inspired me to set up the dirted tank in my thread. If that works I would start the 29 gallon over with dirt. I'm just not sure what, if anything, can be carried over from that tank. Driftwood, plants, etc. I wouldn't want to contaminate any new setup with whatever is killing the guppies.

Again, sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Very sorry to hear about your guppies dying like this. Very sad. Since they were tough feeder guppies, I can't imagine it was a disease. A toxin could be coming from a submersible heater leaching plastic chemicals or the Eco-Complete. 

My best guess is that it is metal toxicity from the Eco-Complete. Here, we have a large amount of substrate containing assorted micro-nutrients like zinc and copper, which are also heavy metals. Eco-Complete may contain other stuff we don't know about and is slowly releasing it into the water. 

In many cases, Eco-Complete works fine. If tank gets CO2 injection, plants will grow fast enough to mop up heavy metals as they are slowly released. 

In an NPT, however, Eco-Complete by itself doesn't contain enough DOC (dissolved organic matter) to chelate (bind and detoxify) high levels of heavy metals. 

I wrote in my book about metal toxicity towards fish and plants. AND I have never recommended Eco-Complete as a substrate for NPTs. (It doesn't have enough organic matter to provide CO2 for plants.)

For metal toxicity, water changes will help somewhat. Carbon filtration will only make a metal toxicity problem worse, because it removes protective DOC from the water. Adding an aquarium water conditioner (e.g., Aqua Safe) that counteracts heavy metals would be very helpful. 

I don't think that your driftwood, plants, sand, etc would carry over this problem to another tank. My bet is that it's the Eco-Complete. 

Keep us posted!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Great article! I raise guppy/Endler hybrids, and find them to be very hardy and disease resistant.

I also keep a setup with potted plants as a quarantine and grow-out tank. If new fish need to be medicated it is easy to take the plants out if they will be damaged by the treatment. And nothing calms a nervous new fish like a tank full of plants.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Michael said:


> Great article! I raise guppy/Endler hybrids, and find them to be very hardy and disease resistant.


Would love to hear/read more about this  Currently I have a bunch of endlers, most probably none of them pure wild strain, but many resemble them. Others are obvious hybrids with guppies (cobra or snakeskin or whatever they call them). I would like to experiment a little and create other "random" hybrids. Increased genetic pool would be probably welcome as well. I like blue moscow guppies and could probably source males and/or females. Do you think that it's worth to mix a couple of "pure strain" guppy males and/or females with endlers? I have only one community tank, so there is no chance I could do a selective breeding. However culling is not unknown to me, so I am able to get rid of weak or unsightly fry. I would like to have more different colors, hardy fish with size similar to endlers. At the moment I occasionally buy another endler (hybrid) pair from my LFS, but I suspect that they always come from the same breeder, so they probably do not enrich the genetic pool in my tank.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The ones I started with were tiger Endler's, known to have originated as a hybrid between a male snakeskin guppy and a female Endler's. I did some relatively casual selection over the years to keep the barred yellow and black pattern, but with variable tail pattern and shape. This fall when I brought in all the tub babies, I noticed more variation in color and pattern. I may separate some of those out for separate tubs next spring.

The hybrids are larger than species Endler's with more color in dorsal and caudal fins. They keep the intensity of color and iridescence of the Endler's. I think crossing some other strain of guppies with wild-type Endler's could produce some very interesting fish. There are some strains of "pure" Endler's with enhanced blue color--good candidates for hybridizing with blue Moscow?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Any chance that you could share a photo of your hybrids? I know that they are extremely hard to capture as they won't stay still, but maybe you'll be lucky or have better photographic skills than me 

I have blue star endlers and indeed they would be a great candidate for breeding with Moscow guppies, though I probably won't be able to pair them. I'll have to rely on natural instinct and hope that Moscow guppies will choose blue endlers as the best mate for them 

I am not familiar with dominant genes passing to offspring - do you or anyone else know what is the recommended way of hybridization? Guppy male + Endler's female; guppy female + Endler's male; or it doesn't matter, the result will be very similar in both cases?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It makes all the difference which male you use!

Most likely (95%), the Endler male, not the female, carries the color genes on his Y sex chromosome. So if you want his blue color, use him. Females don't have a Y chromosome, so they would not have *any* gene for blue color.

Crossing the Endler male with the female guppy would be the way I would go. You'll probably get a guppy body and the Endler color and who knows what else! Be interesting.

Here is Marty Anderson's website for Blue Star Endlers. https://www.martysfish.com/blue-star-endlers-in-the-united-states-usa/

I've purchased Orchid Endlers from Marty and been very pleased with the fish he sent and the transaction.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

mysiak said:


> Any chance that you could share a photo of your hybrids? I know that they are extremely hard to capture as they won't stay still, but maybe you'll be lucky or have better photographic skills than me


I'll try, but don't hold your breath, LOL. I don't know much about the genetics of either species, just doing classical selection by appearance. My strain does carry the blond mutation, which is an autosomal recessive. Despite removing all the blond fish for years I still get them in every new brood.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Thanks to both of you for your inputs. I am going to source two pairs of Moscow guppies and let's see what happens (if anything interesting..)  

Btw. Marty's fish web page seems to be a good source of information, even if owner decided to allow access to it from the US only.. Fortunately this restriction can be easily bypassed with one of the free proxy servers.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your breeding plans sound interesting. I've gotten good results twice now from crossing swordtail Guppies/Endler-like males with my fancy-bred Blue Grass Guppy females. The babies get brilliant iridescent color from the males and big, beautiful colored fins from the females. Not to mention hybrid vigor, increased disease resistance, etc. It's a win-win!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Michael said:


> I'll try, but don't hold your breath, LOL. I don't know much about the genetics of either species, just doing classical selection by appearance. My strain does carry the blond mutation, which is an autosomal recessive. Despite removing all the blond fish for years I still get them in every new brood.


Thanks for your enthusiasm about my article and information about your guppies. Some of those genes just pop up out of nowhere!

Example: Here are photos of the F1 progeny from crossing my nice Ls (Lower Swordtail) male, purchased from Alan S. Bias, another excellent guppy breeder. http://www.swordtailguppies.com/

I mated the Ls male with this Blue Grass female (shown with a Blue Grass male).

The F1 progeny was unbelievable! Photos show three young males at two months. I got zebra stripes, green crescents, good delta and dorsal fins, and all kinds of colors.


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## Hobbylifeandpets (Mar 13, 2018)

Hello,

The potts that u put plants in have holes for water circulation?

Thank you!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I've used both.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hobbylifeandpets said:


> Hello,
> 
> The potts that u put plants in have holes for water circulation?
> 
> Thank you!


Most do, but the ones without holes still work fine.


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