# DFWAPC expansion project of rare aquatic plants



## alexopolus

I have this idea in my head for a while. Some input would be appreciated.
My idea is to get members to volunteer, this is not a experiment , the volunteer has to have the right tank to ensure that the plant will survive and propagate. Later on the clippings will be distribute between the members. 
What do you guys think?


----------



## digital_gods

The DFW Marine Aquarium Society has a co-op program like what you described but for corals. When the coral gets large enough, it gets propagated and spread to others waiting to host. The host does get to keep a frag for their collection since they hosted. It keeps the corals in the metroplex. I could see this working for plants.


----------



## Tugg

I thought about the same thing when I saw the COOP stuff that dfwMAS does. It seems stems are easy to trade and get free since they're trimmed so often, but things like carpet plants, and slow growers aren't typically shared as much. I think it's a great idea to help make them more available to the community.


----------



## niko

That may sound like too much involvement with something new but the best way to propagate aquatic plants, especially carpet plants, is hydroponics. Completely hands off. Algae are absolutely no issue and the only other issue (Blue Green Algae) is very easy to solve. I have experience growing HC hydroponically and even still have the original trays/plumbing in the attic.

Thing is - the trays do not take a lot of room. Not sure if it can be done in a garage (maybe too hot in summer).

The main problem I see with a hydroponic setup is who would want the plants? They grow unbelievably fast. Alex, what plants do you have in mind? I assume you are talking about Bucephalandra and such - rare plants that are expensive to get but not impossible to grow out if you can/know.

And a bit of history - back in about 2004 I wanted to do the exact same thing with the club. To have a big tank in which we grow all kinds of plants and always have them available. No one was interested and I can easily see why (who wants a 200 gal. tank to take care of? Who wants even more plants?). I'm talking about this funny early club fact because I think today things have changed - there are enough rare plants that everyone would want AND the mentality seems different now too - more dynamic in some way.

And by the way - not only rare plants are good candidates for something like that. Plants that seem to have been forgotten are good too. One example is Cyperus helferi - a plant considered very cool more than 10 years ago. It is the tall grassy plant in this 2003 aquascape by Ricky Cain (one of the original people in the club):


----------



## fishyjoe24

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003/show43.html here's ricky's old aqua scape. so simple but so nice.


----------



## alexopolus

niko said:


> That may sound like too much involvement with something new but the best way to propagate aquatic plants, especially carpet plants, is hydroponics. Completely hands off. Algae are absolutely no issue and the only other issue (Blue Green Algae) is very easy to solve. I have experience growing HC hydroponically and even still have the original trays/plumbing in the attic.
> 
> Thing is - the trays do not take a lot of room. Not sure if it can be done in a garage (maybe too hot in summer).
> 
> The main problem I see with a hydroponic setup is who would want the plants? They grow unbelievably fast. Alex, what plants do you have in mind? I assume you are talking about Bucephalandra and such - rare plants that are expensive to get but not impossible to grow out if you can/know.
> 
> And a bit of history - back in about 2004 I wanted to do the exact same thing with the club. To have a big tank in which we grow all kinds of plants and always have them available. No one was interested and I can easily see why (who wants a 200 gal. tank to take care of? Who wants even more plants?). I'm talking about this funny early club fact because I think today things have changed - there are enough rare plants that everyone would want AND the mentality seems different now too - more dynamic in some way.
> 
> And by the way - not only rare plants are good candidates for something like that. Plants that seem to have been forgotten are good too. One example is Cyperus helferi - a plant considered very cool more than 10 years ago. It is the tall grassy plant in this 2003 aquascape by Ricky Cain (one of the original people in the club):


Niko what I have in mind is having the members or host to have it in their own tanks, they of course would have to dedicate that tank for it. Buchepalandra, the requirements are very similar to anubias, so I think that experienced members can propagate it.

It would be really nice to do a hydroponic setup, but I'm thinking to do it on a very convenient way, using what we already have, all the host has to do is make sure that the plant has enough light, fertilization and "space", make sure the host jungle is not covering the plant.

By the way, I have been trying to get Cyperus helferi myself, I did get one from a member once but it melted and never came back. It was a very popular plant on ADA tanks.

So, Why do I want to do this?... The hobby gets a bit boring when you don't have a mission or goal.
We can trade all the plants we want, but I haven't seen in the last 2 years any new plant, We trade the same plant over and over, so it gets a bit old. I want to club members to have the opportunity to raise any plants, also that way we save money too, we don't have to pay top dollar for a small sample.


----------



## alexopolus

So this is how it may work:

- We will recruit 5 members, I would like the more experienced ones.

- That members has to post once month how is the plant doing (pics will be appreciated)

- When The host (members) think that the plants are ready for trimming, The club will have it available for other members, a wait list will be posted.

Sounds very simple...


----------



## niko

That's way more reasonable than trying to get people to setup new tanks or funky setups. 

As an insurance against loss of single plants it would make sense to have at least 2 people propagate the same plant. Tanks go bad, life gets in the way, and the plants will suffer. 

And really you don't need to dedicate a tank to one or a few "special" plants. Some years ago I had a tank with more than 60 species of plants in it. And since it was a 6' tank I had a lot of each plant. Such a tank can easily host 80-100 species. Lately here we have been talking and admiring Dutch tanks and getting a bit crazy with the number of species in your tank can be a fun "new" trend.

Also a few years back we did a count of the species of plants that all the members combined have in their tanks. We counted 108! I think it is time to do such a count again. Start a new thread, it is fun!


----------



## Zapins

Let us know how it turns out, this might be a good idea for our club if it works out! Especially since spring/summer are coming up soon (I hope).


----------



## alexopolus

Now, all we need is a list of plants that we want to propagate:

I was thinking on: 

1- Bucephalandra. This is a plant that for me is very similar to anubias, a sllow grow plant but hardy. I'm fascinated with this plant, unlike anubias it has diferents colors and shapes. There is a lot of varieties.

2- Eriocaulon. I really need to study this one, This plant has a lots o varieties, but suposibly very demanding. Soft water and CO2 is supposed to be a must. This may be a issue for some members.

3- Cyperus helferi. I don't see any issues on trying this. It seens to be very tolerating. Sllow grower.
I wonder why in a heck I melted mine? Probably water was too warm.

So the next step is to find a reliable and reasonable($$$) source. I know someone locally, that can sell us some plants, but its very limited.

On our next meeting, we will discuss more about this and of course It needs to be approved by the members.


----------



## alexopolus

niko said:


> That's way more reasonable than trying to get people to setup new tanks or funky setups.
> 
> As an insurance against loss of single plants it would make sense to have at least 2 people propagate the same plant. Tanks go bad, life gets in the way, and the plants will suffer.
> 
> And really you don't need to dedicate a tank to one or a few "special" plants. Some years ago I had a tank with more than 60 species of plants in it. And since it was a 6' tank I had a lot of each plant. Such a tank can easily host 80-100 species. Lately here we have been talking and admiring Dutch tanks and getting a bit crazy with the number of species in your tank can be a fun "new" trend.
> 
> Also a few years back we did a count of the species of plants that all the members combined have in their tanks. We counted 108! I think it is time to do such a count again. Start a new thread, it is fun!


I will finish this quote tomorrow! It's late and I to find a thread that you posted a couple of years ago, it was something like "how many species of plants Drinda has in her tank?" it was kinda funny.


----------



## Phil Edwards

It's a great idea and I'd be happy to participate as well. Niko's idea of a hydroponics/emergent setup is probably the best way to maintain a high number of species in a small area. Give me a few months for it to warm up a bit and get the big tank taken care of. I was going to use the 220 downstairs to keep/grow out plants in anyway. I'll be happy to reserve some space in it for DFWAPC's project if the club would be willing to help with postage every once in a while. 

Two problems I see is people wanting to try growing different plants after a while and/or not having enough space to maintain a large enough colony of each plant. 

The solution to the first could easily be accomplished by a trade network between CLUBS, not individuals. Every month or so the plant hosts from each club would send out a package to the designated host from a different club (at the club's expense); say Alex from DFWAPC and Zapins from whichever club he's in right now. 

The solution to the second would be to get everyone to start some sort of outdoor container/emergent growing setup when it's warm enough. That's a great way to get mass quantities of many species grown as brood stock.

One rule to consider putting in place is that the plants would have to be communal property of DFWAPC and as such, cuttings/extras should not be sold by the host unless nobody in the club wants them after being given sufficient notice of availability.

If all this seems too formal, implementing a HAP would go a long way toward preserving species within the club. As soon as the Atlanta club did that everyone and their brother's were swapping plants. 


I love this idea and am going to approach the AGA BOD with the proposal that we somehow support clubs' efforts in this.


----------



## Michael

This is a great idea, and please include me as a volunteer. As most people know, all of my indoor aquaria are Walstad tanks, so this limits somewhat the species I can host. But during the summer I always set up mini-ponds outdoors, and these can produce MANY plants.


----------



## Tugg

HAP = Horticultural Award Program
I had to google that one  Seems like another great idea. I think I'll want to setup an emersed test bed just to know I have a setup that works ok. After that, I'd be willing to foster some plants too.


----------



## alexopolus

Here is a list of people that I have in mind:

Michael, Niko, Crowman, McFan, Fred and Myself (This can change) For now I think it would be better to do it locally, its easy to keep track of the plants and members . Later on after we seen the results, we can expand over other clubs or members out of DFW.

Now all the members in that list are the ones in my opinion have grown pretty much anything with good results. I would love to add Drinda and Kim to that list too, but we have to keep it between active club members.


----------



## alexopolus

Requirements for the waiting list:

- Be a member

- have paid your dues (the only way the club can afford to do it) 

- If you are on this waiting list, the club expects members to have research about the plants that we may be offering, take 5 min to Google it and read about it.

- Patience, rare plants are "rare" because they usually grown slower than other species. My expectation to start distributing plants are 2 months after the project start. 

I need everybody support on the next club meeting so we can get this approved and start looking for suppliers...


----------



## alexopolus

one more rule that we can add is (thanks Phill):

- "the plants would have to be communal property of DFWAPC and as such, cuttings/extras should not be sold by the host unless nobody in the club wants them after being given sufficient notice of availability".


----------



## niko

You are wrong about me. I have not grown pretty much anything with good results. But I have said pretty much everything about planted tanks with good results.


----------



## Michael

The secret to my success is to hide the corpses.


----------



## alexopolus

niko said:


> You are wrong about me. I have not grown pretty much anything with good results. But I have said pretty much everything about planted tanks with good results.





Michael said:


> The secret to my success is to hide the corpses.


and that is how everybody gets experience! killing and hiding corpses lol

Anyways, Crownman said he will be willing to foster a plant.

Niko, you have a lot of experience with vendors, do you have any contact with a vendor? I have someone that can provide locally some plants (Bucephalandra), but is not going to be enough.


----------



## Tugg

This guy has found just about any live stock that anyone has asked for. His prices are inexpensive too. He runs a fish store out of his garage.

https://www.facebook.com/FireWaterAquatics

I'm not sure how he would be in getting rare plants, but I'd add him to the list of hopeful.


----------



## niko

I think that it is pretty obvious that the best source for rare aquatic plants is hobbyists on the internet. The first thing that comes to mind about vendors is that everybody is in it for the money. With hobbyists nothing is guaranteed but getting plants from people like AaronT wil never be beat.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I guess it would depend on your definition of "rare". FAN grows a lot of plants that aren't used very often in the hobby and are "rare" in that sense. If you're looking to grow the stuff that hobbyists charge most for, that's a different story. If you want to get a large amount of plants quickly I'd contact FAN [email protected] and see who their local distributor is. If it's Jermack Cultivated Plants I can tell you their minimum order is $100 and they'll sell to just about anyone with a credit card who's willing to buy. That's where I get most of my plants in bulk. It would probably be best to make a DFWAPC account just to be safe.

It wouldn't hurt to contact other plant clubs to see if they'd be willing to set up a trade or make a contribution to the start of the project.


----------



## niko

I am yet to see good looking plants in any store. Unless they arrived yesterday. 


The supplier maybe sending perfect plants, but the "distributors" don't care, don't care to learn, and again do not care. What they care is money and plants are seen as a way to draw folk to buy other stuff in the store. Bottom line - take a wild guess how much a "disitributor" will charge for a "special order" plant. I am all for people not being cheap with our hobby but that's not everything. This same "special order" is 2-3 clicks away on any forum + much more varieties + you can ask for pictures of the tanks + yes, cheaper price.

Long story short - it all boils down to the question "What are the people I'd like to deal with?".


----------



## alexopolus

niko said:


> I am yet to see good looking plants in any store. Unless they arrived yesterday.
> 
> The supplier maybe sending perfect plants, but the "distributors" don't care, don't care to learn, and again do not care. What they care is money and plants are seen as a way to draw folk to buy other stuff in the store. Bottom line - take a wild guess how much a "disitributor" will charge for a "special order" plant. I am all for people not being cheap with our hobby but that's not everything. This same "special order" is 2-3 clicks away on any forum + much more varieties + you can ask for pictures of the tanks + yes, cheaper price.
> 
> Long story short - it all boils down to the question "What are the people I'd like to deal with?".


I agree with you. I just got 2 little plants (eriocaulon cinereum), I always get my plants from forums and club members. But is always very limited amounts. 
aquariumplants.com usually have ok plants, they also have cyperus helferi available for $5.


----------



## dbot

I'd totally volunteer to be on this list. I've been running over the details of my tank with this guy from Florida and it has kind of inspired me to do "think up" of a science experiment I'd like to setup. The problem would be some equipment and stuff but we could share what we learn to the world. My idea really centers around growing plants but actually documenting and finding the right parameters for said plant. 

I really think the aquatic community is missing out a lot on scientific facts (recorded data) and relies a lot on trial and error. Is anybody else curious about better data to grow plants? I've been doing some on my own and reading a lot of other peoples experiences on forums but we could as a group explore this part of planted tanks together! 

Sorry about the rant. I'd love to help out and host some plants


----------



## dbot

Oops. I should have just wrote a new thread. Basically I'm asking if the DFWAPC would be interested in using group funds to setup a controlled experiment to grow some plants!

But this idea can be used for any plants -- even better if we could do it with rare plants!!!!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Niko,

I've got to disagree with you about the distributors. If they ship **** plants then nobody's going to buy from them again. Poor plant health in stores is really the store's fault, not the distributor's. I just recently got a box of plants from Jermack and was very happy with them. The order went in on Monday night and I got the plants on Thursday afternoon, in a styro box with plenty of heat packs. That's as fast, if not faster, and with better shipping containers than most hobbyists. They're a lot cheaper too.


----------



## alexopolus

good news! The board of directors approved the project!!! 
So as I wrote before, We are going to start with 4 members (I said 5 originally, but funds are very limited) Mike Herod (Crownman), Michael, Niko and Alex.
the reason that I want to go with Bucephalandra is because its hard to kill, it grows slow and may get some algae, but besides that the needs of this plant is pretty similar to anubias. Later today I will post some pics and names of some bucephalandras that we may want to keep. Also I will post a new thread for the waiting list, so write your name and as soon we have the plants ready to trim, we will distribute them.


----------



## alexopolus

All right, The plants have arrived... Thanks to the USPS and some inexperience on the seller side... Seller had to resend my order 3 times, the first batch arrived right away, but all the plants were toasted, box was too small, plants were all cramped inside + the seller added 2 heat packs and we had warm weather on that week... all cooked only 2 out of 20 survived. Seller sent a second order... USPS lost the box for more than 10 days... Finally seller sent a 3rd box, but wait, the post office found the lost box so Crownman (I had plants shipped to him since I was out of town) received a box of half death plants prior the last shipment. Last shipment made it just fine, plants were all alive. The seller did mark all the plants with names but it seem that the ink got washed away, one of the bags that he sent leaked in the foam box.
The plants are actually doing better, but its hard to ID until we have a full grown leave. Next week a friend will come over and help me ID the plants, he has been keeping bucephalandra plants for a while. I hope that by the next meeting We will have some available. Also don't forget put your name on the waiting list.


----------



## Malefactor

Well, I can help with this. Right now my tank is pretty full however i've been wanting to do a remodel and clean out a lot of what i have (a lot of the plants just aren't what i'm looking for, but did a good job of aerating soil and keeping the tank full). I'm relatively new here, but dues are paid up for the year (as of month ago). I'm running high light (Finnex Ray2 and Finnex Fugeray Planted+) with CO2 levels at a constant 33-38ppm (using 2 drop checkers). I just got my order of CSM+B and Chelated Iron for fertilizers and using Mooncon's Mineralized Top Soil. Any plants i'd be keeping would be in my community tank that i take care of on a daily basis. For slow growers and such, as an example, I have Java Fern that was almost dead before i got set up with about 10 leaves at an inch now in the past 3-4 weeks. 

Another fact i will add to this list is - I have a friend in the Philippines. Anything that is from Asia or the local areas over there he can ship to me here. I've got all the information for international permits and can jump on that. The only thing is, me and him both aren't very familiar with what's out there, but if someone tells us specifically what to look for we can get it. He has friends that own LFS's over there. 

So, if i can help just let me know. I work on Sundays when most meetings are, but can meet up with people on Sat to drop / pick up plants.

Forgot to mention, i also have a 10 Gal with nothing at all in it. I'm getting it set up today for a fry grow out / breeding tank that i can use as well.


----------



## alexopolus

I appreciate everybody will to help! The truth is that the plants are very small now and they have to grown, no need to anything extraordinary or drastic to grow it. 

I have by now at least 12+ variation of these plant, a friend may come by this weekend to help me ID them.

By next meeting I hope to be giving the first clips to the members that are going to foster the plants. There are a few rules that come with that:

1.- Those plants are property of the DFWAPC! you cant sell them or trade them.

2.- Plants are only to be distributed between the club members.

3.- Every foster member is require to post a biweekly picture of the plant progress.

4.- Any different approach to try to grown the plant is encouraged (example hydroponics), but is need to be documented.

Bucephalandra is a slow grown plant, similar to anubias, also hard to kill. Most of the plants that the club purchase were emerged grow, the leaves whet emerged are not very attractive, but the submerse form of the plant its really pretty. I will post pictures later today.


----------



## Malefactor

Well, technically i think i'm running Aquaponics basically. With fish / Mineralized top soil providing the nutrients. I add a bit of CSM+B and Chelated Iron to make sure the few traces missed are added. Then the CO2 and plant growing lights. I don't know if i'll be able to make the meeting, as i've said i work on sundays typically. However, i can meet up with you at some time to get some clippings and i know a few members here that live near me that attend meetings and can send clippings with them to the meetings. Just let me know.


----------



## alexopolus

So, I was able to bring to the meeting 4 plants, 3 - B. Theia 3 and 1 silky Blue.

Michael - Theia 3
Mike H. - Theia 3
Niko - Theia 3
Fred - Silky Blue

Those plants came from 1 mother plant, so the Theia 3 has a descent grow rate, Silky Blue seems to grow slower.


----------



## Michael

A quick update--the club's _Bucephalandra motleyana_ 'Theia 3' that I took home is doing very well! A new leaf already, and another one is on the way. This plant is in a very stable Walstad tank with low fish population. The tank is an unusual size, 15 gallon tall with the same footprint as a standard 10 but 14" tall. The tank is lit with two 10w CFL in an old fashioned incandescent hood. Other species in the tank are _C. wendtii, C. willisii, Heteranthera zosterifolia, Hygrophila polysperma_ 'Sunset', _Masilea minuta,_ and an unidentified moss. The plant is still attached to its original rock, resting on the substrate where it is not shadowed by other plants.

I think I'm in love!


----------



## niko

I also got a "Theia 3". It is in my cube tank which has only crypts, no CO2, dosing just Iron once a week, about 15 tiny fish, and very strong light (the best spectrum mix bulbs you can find) for 2 hours a day + 6 hours of very low light. From the looks of the crypts in this tank I can tell that I am running the tank on the verge of starvation. The crypts are ok because of feeding through the roots.

The Bucephalandra has made 3 leaves since Fred dropped it at my house. It came attached on a piece of lava rock and I just placed it on the substrate. I don't think roots have gone into the gravel.

From what I can tell these are plants similar to Anubias in some way - do not require a lot of care really. But definitely they grow faster than Anubias. Plants other than the simple crypts that do well in the tank which are in the same tank (Lotus, Crypt parva, and another big and more demanding crypt) are barely hanging alive. But the Bucephalandra is doing well.

And yes, the Bucephalandra does not look like any other plant. The deep velvety coloration of the leaves is truly beautiful. I want to see this plant develop fully.


----------



## alexopolus

Mike Crownman, has another "Theia 3" thas is doing really well too. he can get in to details about his tank later. Fred has a "silky Blue" variation, it grows a bit slower than the "T3". By the way, T3 does Flower under water. I have 6 more variations that just now are shooting new leaves, and the colors are a bit more interesting than "T3", hopefully I'll be able to bring some of those to next meeting.


----------



## CrownMan

The Theia 3 has about 4 new leaves and sprouts at this time. I have it on top of my aquasoil still on the lava rock in the 40 Breeder between some Staurogyne clusters. I just top off the tank weekly and add a little Equilibrium and Iron once a week. No fish in this tank. Just shrimp and snails. I have a dual T5HO light fixture on about 9 hours a day. So far so good.


----------



## alexopolus

I have observed that some of the plants that I have are about to bloom, some of them haven't shoot any new leaves, but hey here is a flower  
So the Theia 3 is Flowering and if I'm not wrong I have 3 Bucephalandra sp. that are flowering.


----------



## alexopolus

Have any of the plants that were distributed flowered?


----------



## Michael

Mine is happily growing but no flowers.


----------



## niko

Mine (Theia 3) is doing great. Tank has no CO2 but it looks like lowering the hardness and TDS and adding a tiny amount of K and Fe/Traces really helps the plant. It came with 3 leaves now it has at least 10 + babies on the side.


----------



## BenChod

Keep up the great work.


----------



## Tugg

Alex, if you have spare clippings that need homes, my 10g tanks are ready for them.


----------



## alexopolus

I will bring at least 3 clippings next meeting. Bryan I will bring you a Theia 3 clipping, since it seems to do well in any environment. All you need to do is to dose some trace and iron... It helps a bit, but I have one in a Shrimp tank with soft water, no dosing and it still grows well. 

I would like Michael and Crownman to have a clipping of the Buce Sp., since it seems a bit hard to grow, but it blooms... so I'm a bit intrigued about this one.


----------



## alexopolus

I took some pics last night... no bloom yet,also added a extra dose of traces and Iron this morning just in case. I noticed some hole in the older leaves of the Theia 3.


----------



## alexopolus

So one of the plants bloomed ... The picture is not that great, since is in my big tank and I'm not able to pull the plant out. The other 2 haven't bloomed yet, but the bulb is bigger and turned a bit purple.


----------



## alexopolus

any updates on the other plants?


----------



## CrownMan

The plants I have are more into growing their roots down to the substrate. I might have 1 plant that has a new leaf. For those that don't know, I ended up with 2 plants from the very first order that got lost in transit that appeared doa but have since started growing a couple of leaves and some roots. They are attached to some lava rocks in the front of a 40G breeder. I added another dual T5HO light to the front of the tank to give them some dedicated light. A lot of light for a NON CO2 tank but I have started lightly dosing NPK and traces.

None of these plants have taken off in the growing arena but are surviving.


----------



## Michael

Mine are all making slow and steady progress, growing at about the rate I would expect anubias to grow in my tanks. That includes the very tiny division Alex gave me at the last meeting. Alex, please remind me which two varieties I got last time.

I just set up a new tank for my shell dwellers that has nice rocks for epiphytes and higher light than the Bucephalandras are getting now. I may move one to see if that speeds things up.


----------



## alexopolus

Had another bloomed, this flower is a bit different.


----------



## alexopolus

Michael, one is brownie blue and the other one is pigmea.


----------



## TanyaQ2000

Great job guys. So lucky to be mentored by such green thumbs.


----------



## alexopolus

Any updates of how the plants are doing?
I will bring some more plants to the meeting, I had Tanya and Joey on the waiting list. Anybody else would like to host a plant?


----------



## redthumb

I would like a shot tho idk if my setup is adequate enough if someone could check it out and let me know visits welcomed


----------



## Michael

Mine are all growing slowly but steadily, about at the rate one would expect from _Anubias_. No noticeable algae on the leaves. The list:

_B. pygmea
B. motleyana_ 'Theia 3'
_B._ sp 'Brownie Blue'


----------



## Tugg

The Theia 3 I got popped out a new leaf soon after bringing it home, and has pretty much just sat there since. It's not worse, but not really any better that I can tell.


----------



## Tanan

Any update guys?


----------

