# Obstacles to our Hobby



## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

I was reading a really old thread (2004) about the state of our hobby (I'd post a link to it but I cannot find it again) and I was wanting to initiate another discussion of the obstacles facing our little niche in the aquarium world as a whole, and seeing what people think now that some time has passed.

I'll start:
I think that our small corner of the hobby has just started to really make its way into the aquarium hobby as a whole. It has always been there in the past (think victorian-era metal and glass watergardens fueled by the sun) but just in the last few years, it is starting to come into the "light" so to speak. Popular magazines like TFH and that UK one (that I cannot remember) have small but regular articles on plants and planted aquairiums. A wider array of plant-orientated equipment and lighting has become more and more available as well as more and more online retailers popping up to take advantage of this coming trend. Additionally, new plants and new species of fish and invertebrates are showing up on the market and inspiring hobbyists new and old to start or return to the hobby. Increasing trend on online forums like... ahem... are bringing a greater number of people together to talk, share, and trade.

However, the LFS and "Big Box" retailers are still ignorant of this growing trend and leave *much to be desired in the way of adequately and consistantly supplied aquarium plants and plant products. The unfortunate plants that are regularly supplied are usually unhealthy, algae-covered, grown emersed, not properly acclimated, and are far to expensive, or worse. To top it off, all of the pet shops that I have been to do not have any plant-educated employees, dedicated display tanks to draw in attention, nor even carry the basic plant necessities such as substrates or fertilizers.

I would like to see LFS and "Big Box" retailers having a greater selection of better plants and a complete line of products as well as having plant educated workers or even comprehensive brochures. Dedicated hobbyist in this forum and others have gone through great lengths to aide anyone in the hobby or coming into the hobby about what plants to grow, how to maintain such aquariums, and how to better create the little worlds that we enjoy. My thanks to them all...

That being said, I put it out to us all to think about the state of our hobby and see what needs to be done, and to come up with ideas to help, or at least vent about frustrations... who knows, maybe someone will come up with a business that caters to these needs in a larger theatre...*


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The biggest obstacle that I can see is that keeping a healthy planted tank requires far more knowledge. Your average hobbyist gives it a half-hearted effort, fails miserably, and moves on. The average LFS guy doesn't have the necessary experience to provide much help. There just isn't enough financial incentive yet (in the US) for LFS's to educate themselves about the hobby.


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## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

I definately agree... how could we solve this problem? Perhaps a beginner friendly "kit" for planted tanks? I'm thinking a bunch of vals, easy crypts, anubias with substrate tabs and liquid co2? What does everyone else think about this or anything else related to this or otherwise?


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

I can remember making a courtesy visit to the local Salt Water group that was run by an MD and watching a young couple, that came to find out how to set up a tank, get glassy eyed after listening to the very technical chatter that went on. While this Hobby is huge and does not get any respect (kind of like Bowling) absolute understanding of the technology required is not really needed in order to have a nice tank in your home. For those of us that are in deep it is easy to miss the forest for the trees even though the average newcomer is not interested in aggravating details.

Money drives everything and having had the opportunity over the years to visit a lot of shops I can say that the turnover is also huge. Someone in the Hobby starts a store with a great deal of enthusiasm and skill and needs to hire help and sometimes the help needs help. Small businesses are difficult and the advent of the big box type retailer is an interesting development that seems to mainly sell dog food...and fish are an after thought.

Patience is important and as any sucessful Aquarist knows is an important requirement but that is easy to say but more difficult to someone who does not have the knowledge just the wherewithal to plunge in and try to get a tank up and running. The urge to populate a tank with a variety of fish that appeals and have it look great ASAP is very strong. In todays world "I want it now!" is normal and accepted but as we know that is not reality just yet for most of us.

This a new Hobby and the technology is very new and like all new technologies it is in constant flux. What we think we know, right now, may not be so a few years from now. The WEB has created a tremendous force for spreading evidence and knowledge but we do not know if it will last as we know it and bad information can get passed along as well as good not to mention misunderstandings. I can remember a lot of "common wisdoms" that were just plain wrong but were put out by the early writers and simply passed along as if it were proven theory rather than someones best thought or unproven hypothesis.

Patience and thoughtfulness are probably two major attributes this Hobby needs and does not have.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Interesting discussion! I would be very surprised if the big chains and discount big box stores ever got into the planted end with anything other than a handlful of common plants. You can find some ferts, but nothing beyond the basic stuff. There's just too much education involved of the employees to make it worth their while, imo. Other than the '...plants make your tank more beautiful and add to the health of the filsh, blah, blah...' you don't get much more from the employees there.

There is one lfs in this area which has some knowledge of plants and does have a display tank set up. But other than the owners, I'm not sure how much knowledge the minimum wage employees have here.

Let's face it, there's probably more profit involved selling a few plants over and over again to folks who just take them home and watch them slowly die, than there might be in selling plants to someone who knows how to grow them, and then never returns because they *can* grow them and rarely returns for more. I may be way off base with this statement, if there's any lfs owners/managers out there, I'd love to hear your take on it.

IMO, the profit is in the supply side, more than the plants. Supplies need replenishing, new technologies emerge you want to try, etc.

Forums like this are the main source of information on this hobby, and I think do an excellent job disseminating it out. I remember when I first read about using CO2 for plants, I went into an lfs and asked one of the employees about it. They looked at me like I was talking gibberish. If we all had the time and energy to offer our knowledge to one lfs in our towns, *assuming they were willing to accept it*, we could further the hobby tremendously.

Enough ramblings from me.


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

_Forums like this are the main source of information on this hobby, and I think do an excellent job disseminating it out. I remember when I first read about using CO2 for plants, I went into an lfs and asked one of the employees about it. They looked at me like I was talking gibberish. If we all had the time and energy to offer our knowledge to one lfs in our towns, assuming they were willing to accept it, we could further the hobby tremendously._

I encountered this myself the other day. They looked at me like I had grown horns and an extra eye.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree that it would be hugely (is that a word?) beneficial to share knowledge to LFS's if they are open to it. It would help new hobbiests if the LFS's would allow us to put up a flyer for this, and other, planted tank website discussion boards. That way, even if the store selling plants doesn't know how to properly care for them, any person will have info on where to go for help with the plants they just bought.

-Dave


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## The old man (Apr 12, 2008)

The best help still is available to most by joining a local club or starting one on your own. Best advice I ever got from a big box store was by a sales lady that told me about a local fish store that had nice plants and fish.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

COST - If I were to guess I would think that the largest group of aquarium owners are young people. College age and into the 20's and 30's. These people don't have enough money to foot the bill for expensive substrates, lights, plants, fertilizer, etc. I know it can be done much cheaper than it often is, but at the very least you're looking at $300+(if you start from scratch and consider the essentials) Too many people want a little fish tank for 50-$100 for the hobby to explode, imo.


I should add that its likely those who think they want a planted tank with $50-100 to spend, end up buying a few plants, poking them in blue gravel and watching them die. The End...for many...not me


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

Cliff Mayes said:


> Patience is important and as any sucessful Aquarist knows is an important requirement but that is easy to say but more difficult to someone who does not have the knowledge just the wherewithal to plunge in and try to get a tank up and running. The urge to populate a tank with a variety of fish that appeals and have it look great ASAP is very strong. In todays world "I want it now!" is normal and accepted but as we know that is not reality just yet for most of us.....Patience and thoughtfulness are probably two major attributes this Hobby needs and does not have.


I agree 100%. Most people who walk into the "big box" stores looking for their first aquarium haven't done any research at all, they just want some pretty fish and a couple of plants. I think the main obstacle is that they treat the aquarium like a decoration, not a mini-ecosystem. When the bog plants die they call it quits and just stick to fish. Another obstacle is that they are not willing to do any research to find out how to keep plants alive. There really are plenty of beginner books out there and with today's technology you don't even have to leave the house, Google is an amazing tool and APC is about guaranteed to pop up. Beginner tutorials and simple setup procedures are provided and honestly it does not take long at all to understand the basic steps. You won't have a forest, but you will have the basic copse of trees, provided that you care enough about your pets to spend time researching instead of having a decoration just handed to you "NOW!".

Another obstacle is that most aquarium keepers are fish only people. I bet planted people are outnumbered at least 10 to 1, why? Probably because of the reasons people already stated, and because they think that all of the high-tech equipment is needed to even think about succeeding. T8s and dirt grow plants just fine, so do simple name brand ferts. A lot of people jump into hot water when they try to walk the line with high-tech tanks before they get the basics down, and when trouble comes they give up! I have never had a high-tech tank yet, someday I will probably try one. The difference is I KNOW what I don't know! Until I do more research and get the basics of ferts and nutrient deficiencies down, I will have no clue what hit me when trouble strikes!


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## ericpop27 (May 13, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> COST - If I were to guess I would think that the largest group of aquarium owners are young people. College age and into the 20's and 30's. These people don't have enough money to foot the bill for expensive substrates, lights, plants, fertilizer, etc. I know it can be done much cheaper than it often is, but at the very least you're looking at $300+(if you start from scratch and consider the essentials) Too many people want a little fish tank for 50-$100 for the hobby to explode, imo.
> 
> I should add that its likely those who think they want a planted tank with $50-100 to spend, end up buying a few plants, poking them in blue gravel and watching them die. The End...for many...not me


That pretty much sums it up from my experience. Everyone gets really excited when they see a picture of my beautiful tank, but the moment they hear about the different things they have to buy to set it up they lose interest.

As far as stores go, I don't think it would kill anyone to sell legitimate aquatic plants because they'd make serious money off people buying ferts and CO2 supplies. More stores should carry Compact Fluorescent Lighting, that's another way to make huge money. I think the main obstacle is just getting the interest out there. If each Petsmart/Petco/Petland/Wal-Mart/etc put up a nice planted tank OR if Disney made a movie about a neon tetra living in the Amazon River, we'd see a huge explosion in the hobby.


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

Bottom line is no, there isn't a huge profit in it, yes, it is expensive to set up for, and no, it doesn't make for repeat customers.

All of our LFS keep CFL, and many T5, in stock. I buy my fixtures online from places that aren't supporting "sticks and bricks" in their pricing. I buy bulbs only if I'm stuck by a sudden bulb death, otherwise I buy replacement bulbs online, too.

I do (well, did, I use very little nowadays thanks to mineralized soil) the same with ferts, as do most of you.

I go to the source for CO2 tanks, no need to pay a re-application of another profit margin to buy it at the LFS, assuming they even got into it.

We go to niche shops, buy two plants, propogate it out, and then we rob the next 20 customers from the LFS as we sell it inside our club. There is no profit in that.

We say their prices are too high on hardware, and shop it online. We complain about their pricing on plants, and order them online. We complain about their pricing on... oh, you get the point.

They have sticks and bricks to pay for. They'll never compete with online pricing on many of those items. Their job is to be profitable in the end, and there is not a lot of profit in selling to our niche - there is actually more in buying from our niche and selling it to those who will kill the plants and come back for more!

This is essentially saltwater reef (lite?) - the freshwater version; with the caveat being that no one can propogate a coral tank like we can a planted tank - and there obviously isn't money return in coral, either, as the big chains would all stock it if there were!


Even if the make a movie about a neon tetra, I think the "explosion" would be short lived - people will do what they do now; buy a couple plants, kill them, replace it with plastic and move on.


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

The other issue to consider is one of scale.

There just aren't enough dedicated planted tank hobbyists locallized in many locations to make it worth it to set up shop.

GWAPA, my club, is one of the largest in the country I think. You'd think we'd be a home run, set up a shop in DC or Maryland. I don't see it working. I see how we shop things, I see how we buy things, both as a group and as individuals. I can't see how any shop would be able to support an actual site and sell to us profitably.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

While cost definitely plays a factor, I don't think you can lay all on it. Reef tanks are not exactly cheap, and I would guess there are more 'reefers' out there than there are 'planters'. So again, if exposure and knowledge were out there for folks to learn and try, I think the hobby would have a lot of room in which to grow.


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## Markalot (Feb 14, 2007)

My experience, in SW Ohio / Northern KY, PetSmart carries plants, a decent beginner variety, and they have started carrying high tech (and overpriced) lighting. They seem to know the market is there, but not how to serve it.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Well, my opinion is that the planted aquarium people have not yet developed the hobby into a thoroughly scientific process. 

A lot has been accomplished but wherever you go you get people complaining about various problems and other people saying “try this.” This is not meant as a criticism of the people who are trying to build planted aquaria or those helping them but this is not how to develop the hobby.

If this hobby were well developed scientifically, there would be formulae for building perfect aquarium. They would be detailed like this:

Equipment List:
1 20 gal tank All-Glass Model 108 or equivalent
1 45 gal/hour canister filter Fluval model 105 or equivalent
20 lbs. substrate Eco complete or equivalent
etc.
etc.

Plant list
12 Corkscrew val.
2 Amazon Swards
etc.

Fish list
5 Cardinal Tetra
2 Axelrod’s cats
etc.


Directions:
Wash down tank with 10 % bleach and rinse thoroughly with tap water
Add substrate sloping so that back is higher than front
Etc.
.......
Set lights for 12 hours on and 12 hours off 
Etc.
.......
Add 5 ml of fertilizer solution A every day
Etc.
......
Feed fish 1 pinch of dry food A on Monday morning
Feed fish 1/4 cube of frozen brine shrimp on Monday evening
Etc.
......

The idea is to give ENOUGH DETAIL; so that anyone who follows the formula will succeed. This is the essence of science. Everyone who reproduces your experiment should get the same results.

If you think this is ridiculous, you have to understand that there are people around where I live in the New York City area who have such formulae and they make a pretty good living setting up aquaria in offices and homes that never fail. That is the level of science that the hobby needs.

Now I don’t mean that these formulae aquaria are the right aquarium for everyone. I’d surely like to try different plants and fish but the point is these “standard plans” should give you a 99.9% chance of success and making slight changes should not result in an out of control condition. 

The idea is to have a well defined and attainable starting point that people can branch off from. This will give new people two things: a path to success and an estimate of the needed time commitment to the project.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> The biggest obstacle that I can see is that keeping a healthy planted tank requires far more knowledge. Your average hobbyist gives it a half-hearted effort, fails miserably, and moves on. The average LFS guy doesn't have the necessary experience to provide much help. There just isn't enough financial incentive yet (in the US) for LFS's to educate themselves about the hobby.


Your average hobbyist gives it a half-hearted effort? I've been at this for 10 months now, I've spent in excess of $3,000, and up to this point it is pointing to a miserable failure. I've purchase and read books, I've participated in forum, I'm put forth MUCH more than a half-heart effort. NO ONE seem to be able to help. I get a thousand different pieces of advice all tugging in different directions and there simply is no *clear concise advice *or help on the problems we encounter in trying to overcome the problems encountered in the planted tank arena. Remove the plants, ferts, co2 and high light and I can be as successful as Petsmart. This business of planted tanks is tough.....but don't say that we fail because it's a half hearted effort. The ability to get people factual information on how to solve *their problems *, simply isn't available. It's more of...well you might try this, and if that doesn't work, try this, and if that does work, try this....well I've tried it all and the more I try the worse I get!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

What you've described is the ADA system in great detail. Amano and his troupe have been very succesful at marketing their particular line of high-quality goods accompanied by a line of fertilizers and accesories that put people on a trajectory for success. In parts of Asia the "planted aquarium" thing is in full swing. The hobby isn't enormous there, but it's a good sight bigger than here in the US. The average person in Japan has probably seen a nice planted tank often enough to know what it is. The average person here has probably never seen one.

Another difference is that hobbyists in Asia seem to tollerate spending more on their setup. There, it is seen as a legitimate hobby. Here, the average person looks at an aquarium as something to house the critters they won at the county fair or as a container for bait.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Manwithnofish said:


> Your average hobbyist gives it a half-hearted effort? I've been at this for 10 months now, I've spent in excess of $3,000, and up to this point it is pointing to a miserable failure. I've purchase and read books, I've participated in forum, I'm put forth MUCH more than a half-heart effort. NO ONE seem to be able to help. I get a thousand different pieces of advice all tugging in different directions and there simply is no *clear concise advice *or help on the problems we encounter in trying to overcome the problems encountered in the planted tank arena. Remove the plants, ferts, co2 and high light and I can be as successful as Petsmart. This business of planted tanks is tough.....but don't say that we fail because it's a half hearted effort. The ability to get people factual information on how to solve *their problems *, simply isn't available. It's more of...well you might try this, and if that doesn't work, try this, and if that does work, try this....well I've tried it all and the more I try the worse I get!


Maybe you are making this more complicated than it has to be. When I set up a new tank I toss in a half inch of mud, cover it with gravel, stick the plants in, and turn on the lights. The next day I add some fish. In a few weeks I have to start pruning. And I am far from being an "expert."

Have you tried to get help here? Even if you get conflicting advice (which is to be expected because there is no "one way") it should help you to solve your problems.

Good luck!

Bill


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

I have tried and tried to get the only LFS here into plants. They have one shoddy looking plant tank that everything rots in and they wonder why nobody wants to buy plants. I have even volunteered on my own time to help them set up and maintain a nice planted display tank. They wont do it. Yet they just really upgraded their SW reefs.

They chide me about buying stuff online, yet they never carry the stuff I am looking for. I do try to give them business whenever possible. I even take by trimmings as a gift when I can. I would love it if they would take even a small step towards plants. 

Oh, and as a side note for manwithnofish, I know where you are at. I have been there. If there is one failing of online info it is that there are often too many opinions and ways of doing things. When I strugged, I too would often seek advice on the boards (and still do), but sometimes things would conflict. It seems if you can pick a single person whose advice (and tanks) you admire and rely on their help it gets easier. Especially if you can develop a relationship with them. I really respect everyones advice and opinion on the boards. But without naming names, there is one person who is my "go to guy" when things get rough. He has always had good advice and has a similar setup to mine. Trying to follow everyone's advice at the same time, as some will conflict, can be a recipe for disaster.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> Oh, and as a side note for manwithnofish, I know where you are at. I have been there. If there is one failing of online info it is that there are often too many opinions and ways of doing things. When I strugged, I too would often seek advice on the boards (and still do), but sometimes things would conflict. It seems if you can pick a single person whose advice (and tanks) you admire and rely on their help it gets easier.


That's probably the best advice I've ever gotten from any forum....I just might give this a try....now how do I find the right person?

A contest would be great. I could set up 5 tanks (starting from scratch) and have 5 members (or teams) tell me step by step what to do next. I could take pictures and post them for all to review....pause...good idea? or bad idea?...It would be fun if I had 5 tanks and associated equipment. That way when it failed, I wouldn't have myself to blame!!!


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

Great point - so many ways to do things, and every approach has its own challenges and solutions to those challenges.

Manwithnofish, you are hardly the average aquariast putting that kind of investment in!

Wish you better luck with it. My system is one of those speciallized systems, so I'm SOL most of the time in helping folks who, for instance, dose a water column in the EI system... I like the advice of find someone who runs tanks and systems you'd like to emulate, and find a mentor. It is what I did!


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> Manwithnofish, you are hardly the average aquariast putting that kind of investment in!


I think of an investment as something wth a positive return. 



> I like the advice of find someone who runs tanks and systems you'd like to emulate,


How'd you find your mentor? I thought we were all doing pretty much the same thing (once you cross the CO2 / EI barrier and excluding NPT).


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Honestly, I don't know how to tell you to find a mentor. If you read the boards a lot, it is pretty easy to discern who really knows their stuff, and who is blowing hot air. Also, there are different ways of going about this whole planted tank thing, nothing is set in stone. So after reading some posts, you will also get a sense of someone who fits your "style". I just pm'd and asked if he'd mind helping me out. I got lucky and found someone with both a lot of knowlege and a lot of patience.

And we are far from all doing the same thing. Light levels, fert routines, substrates, heck even tapwater varies from place to place.

The best advice I ever got, even though it was the hardest to accept, was to turn the darn light down!!!. I have a 4x54 TEK and I really wanted to use all 4 bulbs on my 75g. As soon as I cut back light things started getting better.

I fought green water for 6 months straight and was about to give up. So hang in there, latch on to a guru, do whatever they say even if it seems weird. Can't get any worse right?


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## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

...wow...I am impressed that so many people have taken the opportunity to read this post and thank you to anyone who has or will respond to this post...

This week, I have taken a tour through the (Ohio) Valley and visited 23 LFS and 22 "Big Box" fish stores and here is what I have found: 
37/45 stores carry plants for aquariums, 
44/45 store owners do not believe that there is a market for aquatic plants, 
3/45 stores have recently reduced the number of aquatic plants that they order, 
1/45 store has recently increased the number of plants that they ordered, 
8/45 stores carry planted tank-specific substrates, 
40/45 stores carry planted tank-specific fertilizers, 
2/45 stores carry CO2 equipment (fermentation only), 
3/45 stores employ plant knowledgable staff. 
45/45 stores carry non-aquatic plant species. 
NONE of the stores carry ANY planted aquarium info. cards, brochures, or books! 

There is no local club for aquatic plants, I hope to start one soon.

I have offered to create and print easy-to-read beginner guides for these stores but only 2 were interested in displaying them. I have offered to assemble and maintain display tank for the local pet stores but only one agreed. I've even offered to supply the plants.

It amazes me that only one out of all of the stores believe that there is a market for aquatic plants. That store owner is the only one to have attended any shows/lectures/seminars/etc. on aquatic plants. His store has a display tank dedicated to planted aquariums and mainly sells clippings from other plant keepers (for a profit!!!). They only rarely order plants to sell. They do offer plant-specific lights, substrates, and fertilizers and never have all of them stocked at the same time. They have no books, magazines, or info. booklets on planted aquariums. I've bought most of my plants and plant products from him. He has one customer that drives over 8 hours to shop at his store (The customer used to live here but moved to Florida). He specializes in reef tanks and coral.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yep. That's about what I've seen too, at least in the US. We remain stuck in a hobby that is only sustainable because of the Internet. If I had to rely on local sources I'd have nothing but mondo grass and java moss.

Change will come but it will probably be glacially slow. I don't know how to say this without offending anyone, but take a look at the people who show up for a fish convention and then compare them to those that show up for an aquatic plant convention. The LFS's will continue to cater to the first demographic until the second one is large enough to be worthy of their attention.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing in all cases. Part of what draws me to this "niche" of the hobby is that I'm doing something that not everyone can do. Well, I guess everyone could, but many are not willing. If everybody in town had an awesome planted tank, I probably wouldn't get the same reactions that I get when people see mine. I like being a little different. And I think when people see a planted tank for the first time, and realize those are real plants and not plastic, they get some idea of what must have gone into achieving that.

But, the flip side is, without the internet it would be completely impossible for me. I'm in NE Wyoming. We have one LFS in town, and it is middlin' at best. I couldn't do a darn thing without the resources and knowledge available on the net.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

There are not enough aquatic plant enthusiasts to support a mass retail market. That's just how it is.

And since maintaining healthy aquatic plants does take a little study and some effort, it is doubtful that there ever will be.

I've raised aquatic plants since well before there was an internet. Some stores carried a few then, and I collected others from local waters, some of which survived. There were also mail order plant suppliers who advertised in aquarium magazines and, of course, friends and fellow hobbyists could help out.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Bill


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## Yokomo99 (Aug 26, 2008)

Our local Big AL's pet store in Hamilton Ontario, Canada has a beautiful planted tank. It is the tank that caught my eye and started me on the quest for my own tank. The staff is quite knowledgeable on planted tank requirements and the store carries a good selection of plants, lighting, CO2 supplies and other gear. I will frequent this shop and possibly pay a bit more for some things but I like having a good LFS near me.


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## chagovatoloco (Nov 17, 2007)

May be I am different but I like the way it is an uncommon hobby. You will not find a planted tank with out a dedicated hobbyist, which makes it unique. There are a lot of hobbies that can be bought in to by "wannabes" but this is not one. The cost is not totally out of reach for even the lowest paid that is dedicated (especially if you have a local club). I take pride in my tank and love to hear the compliments I get on it. I do have a plan that I have started a few people on and had great success. They can get most plants and grow and propagate with little to now trouble. The problem with people getting different advice is the are a few different way to do it that can not be mixed. Such and the el natural filter less and high light. I had a lot of problems when I first started with plants three years ago and they stopped when I followed a known path. I listen to tom barr and follow his method (though I may be partial since he is a member in my local club) and have had the best luck with this approach. I'm just saying I like it not being too exploited by box stores and my tank representing hours of work and study. Like amano said some things can not be taught and must be learned though experience. One must have a little gumption for success.


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## andrew__ (May 18, 2007)

Yokomo99 said:


> Our local Big AL's pet store in Hamilton Ontario, Canada has a beautiful planted tank. It is the tank that caught my eye and started me on the quest for my own tank. The staff is quite knowledgeable on planted tank requirements and the store carries a good selection of plants, lighting, CO2 supplies and other gear. I will frequent this shop and possibly pay a bit more for some things but I like having a good LFS near me.


North York, Kitchener & Oakville are all really good too... (Haven't been to the Hamilton one so can't compare). Makes sense though that big box fish stores would be better at plants than big box pet stores. Ontario seems to have an excellent network of clubs too to make things even better for us.

Personally I can't even find excel or any ferts at my local store (I think this store was also the first place I'd ever seen BGA in person in their plants for sale) and frankly I don't even trust their fish all that much. It's generally about a 45 minute drive for me to get anywhere worth going.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

"That Pet Place", in Lancaster, PA, has a room devoted solely to aquatic plants.
As a guess I'd say that they have 30 tanks of them.

I don't own it nor work there. <g>

Bill


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## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

I would like to see at least some acknowledgment of our hobby in local pet stores. I hate driving over an hour to get some fertilizer! If most of the LFS had even a base amount of necessities and a small planted display tank, this hobby would become an thriving niche. Imagine the amount of input that would bring to our little corner of the aquarium world.


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## Pyro (Nov 20, 2005)

There's about 3 LFS's I frequent around here. PetSmart, a local chain, and just a single free-standing local store. PetSmart sells some plants, only notable one being amazon swords. About 90% I've never heard of, or people insist aren't aquatic plants. The local chain did have a plant tank with some wisteria and vals, but most of it was a decaying mess. They did have some anubias, but at over $15 a plant for a plant that's nearly croaked, it's not worth it either. The single local store doesn't have any sign of plants. For this reason, I tend to think LFS's selling aquatic plants simply isn't profitable. 

If there was an LFS selling plants like HC, riccia, vals, crypts, hygro etc. at reasonable prices, I'd probably buy there in a heartbeat. Mail order hobbyists and my local fish club is about the only 2 ways I acquire plants. Even the local fish club is highly cichlid-oriented, and I can hear an audible groan whenever someone mentions plants. 

I just don't think there's enough interested in aquatic plants for it to be commercially profitable at a brick and mortar store. As people have been said before, it's not widely considered a hobby where you invest much money in. When people ask me how much my 3 tanks in the basement cost me (10, 20, 29), and I tell them it's getting pretty close to the $1000 mark, they start choking. On the flip side though, I've seen my friends blow well over $1000 on guitars, or car modifications, or video games. What I think is stupid to spend money on, some people think there's no better way to spend it, and vice versa. When they scoff at my $250 CO2 system, I get to scoff at their $250 thing to make their guitar sound different. 

With that said, planted tanks are more of a hobby than a showcase thing. It's difficult to setup a planted tank without investing effort and money, unless you buy a whole fleet of ADA products, copy an Amano scape, and just dose based on package directions. Even then, when something goes amiss, you'll wish you had done your research.

Personally I think it's an awesome hobby. It's a great mix of science and art, and while I generally lurk on the science side, the art is definitely there. My aquascapes have gone from blue-gravel anacahris atrocities to starting to see some semblance of beauty. With each re-design I get a little better. I'm also hoping in the coming year to NOT neglect my tanks so I don't end up killing the expensive plants.


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