# Marineland C-220 too turbulent for 20L?



## Mark50 (May 30, 2011)

I was reading the thread "filter choice...ugh" and I was looking to get some advice for a planted 20L tank I've set up. There's some good advice in that thread, but I have more detailed questions I'm seeking answers to. My tank is lightly planted and I was thinking of putting in either a Marineland C-160 or C-220.

The thing is, I actually want a more "still" side. I have a betta and he is king to me. He likes to sleep on the quiet end. BUT I have 6 Rasboras, 2 Ghost Catfish, 2 Peppered Corys, 4 Black Kuhlis and 5 Mystery Snails. I need a filter that can handle the load.

After doing a bit of reading, I'm arriving to the conclusion that the C-220 would probably be my choice, but I don't want to blow all my fish around. What to do... A spray bar? 


My second interest regarding the other thread was the choice of media for my canister filter. I read a thread where a guy did a mod and cut Rena foam 30ppi pads and fit them into the second tray with his carbon averting clogging the fine filter pad that came with the unit. (Which he complained clogged too quickly.)

But since I have plants, I've read it might not be advisable to use carbon. (And opposing opinions that its not a big issue as well.) Maybe just cut the 30ppi pad and use with another media...

SO, what is a good media set up? How do I layer it? 

Thanks!


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## Crashkt90 (May 20, 2011)

Im using a C160 now and i say the next size up shouldnt be a problem


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

You need advice from the nano people on this forum. You are talking about a fairly heavily stocked, roughly 5 1/2 gal. (20 L) tank I gather. 

I have not been successful at putting spray bar arrangements on Marineland filters. One of the things "I don't like about Marinelands". 

As far as media choices go: If you were to ask 50 different people, you'd get 100 different ideas. Do your research but choose something with a rough surface, lots of tiny craters.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

Ahhhh, what he heck, I'll answer your question but first, there are some incredible nanos pictured worth checking out and seeing what other people use.

When talking Marinelands, the C-160 should serve you very well on a tank that size. Crash, in your case, I would have gone with the C-220 as you have a 20G, not 20L

I will only tell you this, I own a pair of 160s but only use them for chemical filtration mainly on our reef and on extremely rare occassion. I do however have a C-360 currently running a 56 gal. planted discus tank as the regular filter is down and the Marineland has been doing such a nice job I have not been in a hurry to get the part I need for the regular filter. It is loaded with Eheim Efhi-Mech in the very bottom basket (normally used for those black sponges they supply you with). The rest of the filter is loaded with bio-media. There are NO SPONGES anywhere in that filter and I am not an advocate of chemical filtration unless a problem arises and only then for short periods. I am partial to any COARSE ceramic or sintered glass bio-media. 

Where lava rock would have incredible bio-capasity and be plenty cheap, I worry about its effect on raising water perimeters as I have only known it to be used on systems requiring high pH and alk. such as in marine and African cichlid aplications. It would definately have the possibility to leach minerals. Other hobbyists could give you better input on that.


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## Mark50 (May 30, 2011)

Thanks for your input, cino. Just a few more questions...

What's the concept behind no sponges? What are you trying to achieve (or avoid) with your choice of medium? 

As a side-bar question, I was looking at medium contained in mesh bags. Are those bags important? Or are they just for convenience. It seems like putting the medium directly into the trays would allow for a more even dispersion. Is there a lot of turbulence INSIDE the canister? Do the bags keep the medium in place or something?

Also, I'm beginning to realize a general unpopularity for chemical filtration. Aside from the word chemical, which I'm sure is faux pas for most people, what effect does it have on an aquarium that you don't like? Does it kill the fish or plants or something? I would just like to figure out the ideal I'm shooting for. I don't want to spend money on a chemical medium I'm just going to find out i don't want.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

Mark50 said:


> Thanks for your input, cino. Just a few more questions...
> 
> What's the concept behind no sponges? What are you trying to achieve (or avoid) with your choice of medium?
> 
> ...


I am not opposed to large block sponges as bio-media really and many people do use them, especially if you are on a tight budget but keep in mind that this is a temporary thing (not the ideal way to go over the long-run) and an eventual upgrade would be in the forseeable future. The problem/downside with sponges is they will clog in certain spots closest to where the intakes are pulling the tank water into the canister. The idea is to leave your bio-media/bio-filter alone for as long as you can, leaving it completely undisturbed. I set my Marineland up like I set up my Eheims and I find they require very little maint., mostly being sure to keep your impellars clean so they run at peak efficiency. A good running, well oxygenated filter will take care of itself.

Oxygen is a very important consideration, especially in closed filtration devices such as canisters. I like round bio-media myself (Efhastrat Pro but that is a very expensive media) because it can not compress and offers next to no resistance to inhibit oxygen or water flow. Some medias, especially more elongated flat peices can eventually "pack" to a certain degree resulting in a shelving type effect which can limit flow. The last I knew Fluval made a good coarse media, good for trapping that could not compress. We are opening up an ugly can of worms here however which is why I was hesitant to answer your questions initially. Everyone has their own ideas. I have no former training. I've just been in the hobby for well over 40 years keeping just about every kind of aquarium at one point or other in time but I far from have all the answers.

I have not been impressed with most medias that come in mesh bags. That is handy if you are relying on a power filter type set-up such as a large Aqua-Clear (110 as an example)for your bio-filtration but this is not an advisable means of filtration and no, the bags serve to no benefit other than conv..

To answer your questions about chemical filtration is when talking about planted aquariums, the commonly stated concern is that it takes up vital nutrients the fish produce and the plants themselves consume and need to survive. Carbon also takes up most added fertilizers you may choose to add to the water. There are no substitutes for regular water changes which is where carbon is frequently used to prolong water changes. This is a very indepth area so I won't go on.

Yes, carbon is also known to effect fish. This is especially evidenced in cichlid tanks where the use of carbon has been directly linked to hole-in-the-head/lateral line disease.

In my own opinion however, all these chemical things such as carbon, zeo-lite = nitrate/phosphate/ammonia removers, the list is endless, just mask what is an actual problem. The cause of the problem must be ferreted out and the issue/cause resolved.

Now that I just opened up that nasty can of worms I was hoping to avoid, I do hope this helps.


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## Mark50 (May 30, 2011)

cino said:


> I am not opposed to large block sponges as bio-media really and many people do use them, especially if you are on a tight budget but keep in mind that this is a temporary thing (not the ideal way to go over the long-run) and an eventual upgrade would be in the forseeable future. The problem/downside with sponges is they will clog in certain spots closest to where the intakes are pulling the tank water into the canister. The idea is to leave your bio-media/bio-filter alone for as long as you can, leaving it completely undisturbed. I set my Marineland up like I set up my Eheims and I find they require very little maint., mostly being sure to keep your impellars clean so they run at peak efficiency. A good running, well oxygenated filter will take care of itself.
> 
> Oxygen is a very important consideration, especially in closed filtration devices such as canisters. I like round bio-media myself (Efhastrat Pro but that is a very expensive media) because it can not compress and offers next to no resistance to inhibit oxygen or water flow. Some medias, especially more elongated flat peices can eventually "pack" to a certain degree resulting in a shelving type effect which can limit flow. The last I knew Fluval made a good coarse media, good for trapping that could not compress. We are opening up an ugly can of worms here however which is why I was hesitant to answer your questions initially. Everyone has their own ideas. I have no former training. I've just been in the hobby for well over 40 years keeping just about every kind of aquarium at one point or other in time but I far from have all the answers.
> 
> ...


Everyone tailors to their own tastes and needs. It's only a can of worms if you think you have nothing to learn. I, on the other hand, have plenty to learn so I appreciate your willingness to step up.

So the bags that contain the media aren't essential and you can just buy a box of whatever and pour it right into the baskets? Do you fill them right to the brim? I was looking at the Ehfimech and the Substrat pro that gets sold by the liter. Just to get an idea, how much media fits into a basket filled to the top? How often to you replace it? I'm guessing the whole idea of bio media is to enable you to build up beneficial bacteria and not replace it very often. At what point do you put in some new bio media?

Another concern were canister filters with flow restrictors. Although they sound nice, if you just reduce the flow by turning the cut off and the pump continues to run on full speed, won't you burn up the motor? I was looking at alternate canister filters and noticed the option but wasn't able to conceptualize the functionality. Any experience on that end?

Are the baskets in the canister filters necessary? Can you load the media straight in?

Again, thanks for your help.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

Wait until people get off work, you'll see what I mean by the perverbial "can of worms". Eheim produces are offered in larger chain type stores but smaller Mom and Pop type stores generally stock what they can sell quickly and easily and hence, limit their high-end stuff. I especially like the idea of Efhastrat Pro for slower filters because some medias do tend to clog or get dirty more easily. Do not buy it from a place like Drs. Foster and Smith as their mark-up is crazy, like $30 a liter. I just bought two liters and paid $25 for both (12.50 each) but I get things at cost through a man I've been dealing through for 22 years now and is a friend. I can usually special order anything I need through him which is good considering how many tanks we have here. LOL

I'll have to take a good look at one of my 160s and try to give you a guestimate as to how much you will need. I'll have to get back to you. What I also like about the small round media is that it easily fills all the little nooks and crannies like around the fill/in-take tube areas in each media basket so there is no wasted space or gapping. With being as small and rough surfaced as it is, there is a lot of surface area. You do not want to fill it right to the top leaving about 1/2 inch between the media and the basket rim so your baskets fit snuggly into one another or you won't be able to get the pump head on tight so it locks down. 

Later


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

Look into Bio Rio. ADA makes it and it is cheap at $10 per liter.

It is super duper tiny and looks like it offers way more suffice area than larger media like Ehfisubstrat pro. It does not clog easily either and since it is so small, it traps a lot of particulates and acts as a biological and mechanical media.

In my filter it didn't really effect flow in an empty filter versus full filter test.I am not just promoting it because it is an ADA product. It is really, really good stuff and pretty cheap.

After switching to bio rio, I was so happy with it that I planted an orchid in my old Substrat pro and some bark : )


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

I just checked my filter. It would hold no more than 1 liter of the Mech in the bottom basket and each of the two media baskets would hold no more than 1 liter each. You'll see the tiny, tight corners in the baskets when you buy your filter and I think you will be super happy with the Pro because it will fill all those hard-to-fill places allowing for no bypass of the media. You should have plenty with just 2 liters of the Pro. I have never replaced it in four years of continous running and can see no reason to replace it anytime soon. It should last you for years and years. Because of the size and shape of the various sized spheres, you'll be amazed at the capasity and the ease of care required.

I love my "set and forget" bio-filters. I clean the impellars once a month as standard rule but I never touch the media, only if one of our filters goes down which is so rare I don't even think about it. Once you start incorporating sponges in any type of bio-filter, that means you have to open it up and worry about cleaning the sponges to make sure they do not clog.

In the event you do find it necessary to rinse your media, just use used aquarium water from when you do a water change and a quick, 1-2-3 scooch of the media and you will be fine. Never wash it or rinse it under tap water or you'll kill the nitrifying bacteria causing your tank to cycle again.

Good Luck but I do believe you will be extremely happy with the results and feel your money was well spent. We've got 6 planted tanks here and they ALL have the Pro. I have never regretted its purchase and obviously would buy it again and again.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

There is another option with the ADA's Bio-Rio. I am not familiar with that myself but am sure, like most products ADA/ADG offers, it is a "superior product". 

Just so as you know, JustLikeAPill has a 5 1/2 gal. nano so he should be able to help you considerably. He is very good, he and I frequently communicate and he knows his stuff. 

The Efhastrat Pro is also tiny, very tiny in fact. The peices you see pictured are magnified. Zillions of tiny peices of course media that can not compact will give you a world of surface area larger medias can't match.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

It is just that small "C"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not so sure that that doesn't make me nervous (AAAARRRGH)as it is as much about "oxygen" as surface area. If it is that much smaller than Pro, that to me sends up a "red flag". I like the varying sizes of the Pro allowing for easy flow but as I said earlier, I am not familiar with Bio-Rio. The Pro has never once done me wrong and I keep discus which is about the most demanding fish you can keep and they need well oxygenated water or else.................


Speaking of orchids however.......I keep catleas..........LOL


Have a Good One


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

If you have ever used Perlite for plants, it is that small.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

That tiny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL 

And works that well in your Eheim Classic?????? That is a much more powerful filter than Mark is talking about even if you do cut the flow. I've never tried that and try to fit the filter to match the tank/fish/plant needs of that individual tank. Some plants/fish like high flow, some like stagnate water but still need oxygen. Did you test for oxygen before and after????? Some people on this site who use Bio Rio have wondered about clogging because it is that small and are not as happy with it as you are. Yea, you are an ADA drum beater LOL 

Like I said, I have no experience with the stuff and only know what I have found to work exceptionally well on the "over-all". Mr. Mark likes his betta best of all and they love and require their oxygen too but do not fight current well because of their finnage. They do very well in discus tanks but have a hard time in the heat. Mine drape themselves in the darndest places and just "chill".......TOOOOOO FUNNY

I am still waiting on my flow meters to come in. I forgot this was a holiday week so I can't pick them up until tomorrow.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

I have an ecco 2236 rated at 180 gph (on a five gallon tank lmao) but you can use it in a classic. You have to put down mesh or a sponge or something to keep it from falling the grid or basket. 

It really doesn't clog but that doesn't mean you shouldn't clean the filter. If you only want to clean a filter once a year it might not be for you . 

I have not tester the oxygen...no O2 meter. The ADA Filters hold 6 liters for the smallest filter at 100 gph and there doesn't seem to be an oxygen problem. They probably have data somewhere. If I find it I will post it, it should be interesting.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

LOL, I am sure you will. GUARENTEED

I must apologize as I am not at all familiar with the newer Eheims. Man, that is tiny!!!!! I am sorry but I think I will stick to my Pro, too small. 

Now, Now. I don't let any of my filters go that long, maybe 11 months LOL. Actually they are checked when I do my impellars monthly. They just do not seem to require attention to their media, SORRY........actually NOT!

WAIT UNTIL NIKO GETS OFF WORK. THAN HE WILL SET US ALL STRAIGHT ainkille

Just wait Mark, this thread will heat up soon. :flame:


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## Mark50 (May 30, 2011)

I've been doing a bit of shopping around as payday is Friday. Petco has a Cascade 500 and 700 and I noticed they have a lower flow rate that might attend to my turbulence concerns. After I got home, I looked on Amazon for ratings and people seemed fairly happy with them although there were mentions of some bypass issues.

The only reason I bring this up is because, you know, I can be hooked up with my filter Friday night instead of waiting for shipping. Plus, the Cascade has flow regulators and the spray bar included.

Are the Marineland filters REALLY good? What would you do if you were in my anxious shoes? If I get the Marineland, then I'd have to mess with making a spray bar mod. Plus if there's anything wrong with the Cascade filter, I can just shoot back down to Petco and get my money back.

You're right about one thing, though. That bio media is spendy. I'm glad for sure that that doesn't need to be replaced. I like the idea of Ehfimech. What about this biOrb stuff.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755271#prodTab1

It looks like it has a ton of surface area, not too small and cheaper. 900 grams is about a liter for $8.79.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

How about Seachem Matrix. The price seems comparable to biOrb. Only reason I mention Matrix is that I've used it but have no idea if it's any better or worse than what you have linked. Just tossing out an option.

http://www.bigalsonline.com/Matrix-Bio-Media_8045313_82.html


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

Sorry gentlemen but you just lost me. I am not familiar with the Matrix media (like their carbon tho LOL) 

I've read some terrible things about the Cascades (a lot of bad stuff/unhappy owners actually) but have no first hand experience with them either so I don't know......have no idea.

AHHH YEA, when you have $150+ a peice fish......... For a Marineland to hold its own and to trust in a filter...... that speaks for itself. Until I can get our Eheim Pro 3E (2078) going, the Marineland has done a surprisingly great job.

Re the $600 ADA 100 gph filter........ that also speaks for itself....... You might want to consider those filters Niko mentioned to Crash recently if your budget is just that tight. They looked good to me. "Convience is not necesarily better".

Don't go too low in water circulation. Your betta will be fine. A little current, provided it is not a tidal wave, actually strengthens them. 

I called Marineland and actually asked them to sell their larger canisters with spray bars to diffuse their output. I highly doubt you will get a spray bar on a Marineland filter and get it to stay there but stranger things have been known to happen.




I bow out at this point. Good Luck Mark whatever your choice.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

On page 50 in the book of ADA they have a graph showing how oxygen decreases once the filter is shut off. It starts at 6 mg/l of O2 right when it shut off. 

After 30 minutes it is 5 mg/l
After 60 minutes it is 2 mg/l
After 90 minutes it is 0 mg/l

This is using their filter and media. I assume it is the es600 (6 liters media, 100 gph)


So that is how bio rio affects oxygen, I guess. In a running filter (with 6 liters of media at 100 gph we are assuming) the water in it has 6 mg/l of O2.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

After spending $600 on a 100 gph filter, THEN YOU CAN GO BUY A GENERATOR. LOL :supz:

"Sounds like this young man is on a very tight budget for now"


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

Well the info isn't about the filter, it is how the ADA media inside the filter or any filter at a similar capacity like a classic 2217 with the flow dialed down affects oxygen ( you did ask about how bio rio effects oxygen)


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

You're right.......actually just kidding around this afternoon. I had a rare day to myself so I am in a better mood than most days. 

That is not bad and am sure better than most. I'd have to think about how that translates to other filters. Oxygen drop-off is a big problem in the event of a power outage where canister filters are concerned. I am use to thinking in PPMs so I had to go do a translation look-up.  With my husband being a blacksmith/welder, we have welders that can generate high amounts of electricity we can run our entire house off of so I must confess, I never thought about it in that way.

Want to see two people run around frantically when the power goes down!!!!!!!!! LOL

Our tanks run at 12 ppms of oxygen. Our CO2 hovers at around 10 PPMs unfortunately. Have no way of testing what is actually inside the filter. When I clean my impellars, I always test for nitrates and phosphates, gives me a good idea as to how the bio-filter is performing.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

Cino, what do you use to test for O2?


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

Salifert test kits. Is there something you rec. more?????


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

PS, I also have Red Sea. I found Salifert (from Holland) to be a bit more accurate as near as I can tell. CO2 is one of the few things I don't have a probe for.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

No, I thought the only O2 testing available involved some sort of O2 meters. I didn't realize there were test kits but I've not looked. Good to know, however.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

They came highly rec. to me so that is what I've been using for years now. I figured with being from Holland.......... If anyone has any other ideas..........


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

cino said:


> You're right.......actually just kidding around this afternoon. I had a rare day to myself so I am in a better mood than most days...


Buried them all in the backyard?


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

Yeah I thought you needed a meter, too. It would be a good kit to have even for the sake of curiosity. I will look into that, thanks : )


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

jeff5614 said:


> Buried them all in the backyard?


Got that RIGHT!!!!!!

Salifert cost about half again to 3/4s more than what most test kits cost because they are in fact imported. You do have to ask for them specifically though with most suppliers. Even places like Drs. Foster and Smith and that Fish Place don't openly advertize them. Just don't get the test strip type. Not even sure if those are still available.

I'm too chicken (bawk, bawk) to use CO2 injection because of our low, hence volitile pH levels here so I needed another way to test for CO2. Discus do not like chemical water adjustments so I avoid chemical enhancements with "stability" being the most important thing with discus.

Back in my olden days when I first got into discus keeping (BP, "Before Planted") I use to filter through peat until I had a pH crash and lost 3 discus and had a few others with bad pH burns.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

This is very off topic but everyone says these days that ph changes due to carbon dioxide do not affect fish, only ph changes from some chemical like tannins from peat, buffeting rocks, or commercial ph up or down chemicals.

Just an FYI.


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## cino (May 1, 2011)

Guess that is dependant on how low your ph falls. Yes, absolutely fish get pH burns however but your pH has to drop down to around 5 or lower I believe. It is almost unheard of for pH to drop that dangerously low but once your pH goes below 6.0 your are dealing with a very unstable pH value which can take a downward swing very rapidly if conditions are right. I could not get a reading on how low my pH went that day and I am thinking way back but the fins were literally eaten off the fish. Their scales had what looked like someone burned them off and the discus themselves turned almost black otherwise if memory serves me right.

This is where I'd have to go back and do some research to give you an accurate senario since this was long ago back when we bought this place. Origionally I thought great, an ideal natural water situation for keeping discus but I had a lot to learn about the risks and benefits of keeping low pH, super-soft water aquariums. I use the high oxygenation in our aquariums to help keep the pH stable in addition to keeping my bio-loads light.

There is a lot to it and I am tired now (up at 4:00 AM) but would like to answer your question as accurately as possible for those out there who may have a similar situation. Most the time we think of dealing with pH values of 7 or higher and at the very least, pebbles coming out of peoples' faucets in terms of source water hardness. I had to do a lot of digging to find the answers to the opposite problem. The information is just not readily available and what you do find comes in dribs and drabs.

Please excuse me but I can give you much better answers when I am more awake tomorrow.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

It's Ok lol, just a suggestion


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## Mark50 (May 30, 2011)

cino said:


> Sorry gentlemen but you just lost me. I am not familiar with the Matrix media (like their carbon tho LOL)
> 
> I've read some terrible things about the Cascades (a lot of bad stuff/unhappy owners actually) but have no first hand experience with them either so I don't know......have no idea.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I read some bad things about the Cascades too, but after reading about 50 reviews, the good/bad ratio was really good, so I went with the the Cascade 500. Petco has a 30 day return policy and you know what a pain it is to return internet stuff with shipping and all that.

I ended up buying Fluval Biomax and Fluval Prefilter. I put a layer of Biomax over a layer of prefilter in my first basket and in my second basket, a bonded filter pad on the bottom, activated carbon, then a filter pad. As the beneficial bacteria builds on on the material in my lower basket, I'll put all Fluval prefilter in the lower basket and all Biomax in the second.

The Cascade 500 turned out to be perfect. It's rated at 115gph and I had to turn the flow down a bit for my Betta. Poor guy was hanging on to the heater cord on the other side of the tank.

Thanks for your help. My tank is crystal.


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