# New Gravel creating HARD water!



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Hi everyone,

Glad to have "El Natural" running again!! I just set up a 1.5 gallon hex mostly as a soil test, but as a home for my betta if it goes ok. I used soil from the backyard, and I opened a new bag of small, natural gravel from WalMart. I rinsed it in a container with running water until it was clear. The water in the hex is now a Ca Mg soup!! I quit the test at 30dGH! 

I know it's the gravel and not the soil because I moved the betta to a large bowl in the meantime, and had put some of the same gravel in there, and that water too is now off the charts. Our tapwater has 0dGH.

I keep doing water changes but it's not coming down. So two questions: Has anyone had this experience with gravel? AND What about my poor betta, is it bad for him to be in such hard water? I just started doing water changes in his bowl to try to get the GH down. I'd like to transfer him to his new home soon since the nitrate and ammonia are zero and the water is clear.

Javalee


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I see you used crypts too. 

So what's your pH out of the tap?


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Betty,

pH out the tap is 8.6. In a non-planted aquarium, it settles to 8.2. In my other NPT it is 7.8. I actually ADD Ca and Mg to my other NPT since there's none in our tap water.

I hope betta will survive the environmental insults as of late. He's used to being in 0dGH water. What an extreme change! I am lowering it slowly in his 1 gal bowl now.

Oh, and yes, crypts ( no pruning, or very little!) and a mass of hornwort and water lettuce.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

I'm still exploring and discovering on APC. Perhaps this thread should go in "Science of Substrates?"


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I've never had gravel do that, tho I don't use regular pet store gravel. I always use pool filter media.

What brand of gravel is it?
Sounds like it would be great for a cichlid tank.

From the IBC Betta Splendens page, they say 5-19dh. My bettas are doing fine with GH at 7dh.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Figured it out. It was the test. Doh! I should have known.

Thanks Betty, for the Betta link. I needed that betta info anyway!

Pool filter media? That is the fine gravel in your post? Great! I'm gonna get that from now on. Seems it's a cheaper option and a nice finer grade! thanks again, Betty!


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

The soil very well may have CaCO3, Mg etc in it as well as the gravel, I'd think that is more plausible, all the cement they use when building etc homes is often left and many soils have a fair amount of Ca/Mg in them.

Small tank, initial values will shoot all over for the first 1-4 weeks or so.
A water change will resolve that, I'd not worry too much, I would add more plants though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Just to resolve any worries about using soil, the problem was indeed my test kit. I should have tested my tap water earlier since I know it to be 0dGH. After Betty's message, I did use this test on the tap water and found the problem. 

The soil, however, is working out great. I was nervous about gathering my own soil, and there was a bit of ammonia and nitrite the first day. That resolved after a water change the next day and has stayed zero since. This is soil from a woodsy area from our property where I hoped the decomposition of leaves would provide plenty of nutrients but not too many! It seems fine now, and I'll keep y'all posted on the progress of the "tank."

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion. I should have posted AFTER doing a test on the tapwater.

Javalee


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Javalee, 

It sounds like your tap water, with its pH of 8.6 and lack of calcium, is like mine. It took me a while to figure out that it is exactly like softened hard water since it consists entirely of sodium bicarbonate with no calcium or magnesium. I do not like working with this water, and so I use rainwater instead. It is easier to get calcium levels up in rainwater, with its lower pH, than it is with my tapwater.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Another "El Natural" Betta tank! I'm sure the fishie will love it. If only everyone would give their Bettas such good homes! 

HeyPK, rainwater sounds like a good idea, but what about air pollution? Have you had any problems using rainwater? My ponds get some rainwater during winter, but I've never tried it for my indoor aquaria (I'm very lucky that my tapwater is not only zero KH and GH, but has a pH of only 6.9 - it's perfect for adding things to!). 

From Alex.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hey Javalee,

I'm glad it wasn't the gravel! 

I've used "well travelled" pool filter sand. It comes in different colors. In my eagerness, I got some "bright white" pool filter silica sand. It was all the place near me had, so..... Ugh! Glaringly white! I've since sprinkled on some beige sand to tone it down a bit. 

I then tried some that the store clerk described as "tan or brown" on the phone. It looked like a nice, neutral beige in the bag, but actually looks lighter, like a white to bisque color when wet. 

The store manager there said that I'd only find "brown" in upstate NY. He said it was a regional thing - apparently MA residents like bright white sand for their pool filters. 

So, on a visit to my Dad in Rochester, NY, I picked up a bag of "brown" sand. Even this looks lighter in the tank, but is a nice brown-egg eggshell color. So far, this is my favorite - the pool filter sand I brought 400 miles back with me, LOL!

The Pool filter sand works well, but call ahead to find out the colors! I've read an inquiry of a discus keeper seeking out that white, white sand, but it was a bit TOO bright for my tastes. 

Your Betta hex looks great! Lucky Betta!
-Jane


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

HeyPK said:


> Javalee, It took me a while to figure out that it is exactly like softened hard water since it consists entirely of sodium bicarbonate with no calcium or magnesium. I do not like working with this water, and so I use rainwater instead. It is easier to get calcium levels up in rainwater, with its lower pH, than it is with my tapwater.


Unless you live in New Zealand or Tahiti, your tapwater is probably cleaner than rain water. And there's probably not that much bicarbonate in the tapwater. (Municipal water suppliers add bicarbonate to prevent acid corrosion of metal pipes, and I would speculate that they add the least amount that will bring the pH up.) You could neutralize the sodium bicarbonate and then use it just as you would the rain water.

All that mercury, etc in the air....


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks, HeyPK and Diana, for the comments on our unusual water parameters. My GH is 0 and my KH is 20d. 

HeyPK, your suggestion seemed really reasonable. I never thought of using rainwater. I DO have problems raising the GH by adding CaCl2 and MgSO4 since it must be precipitating out with the HCO3 and leaving my GH never higher than 2dGH.

However, I hear you Diana, about the pollution, while we live in a nice, clean rural area, we are also close enough to "Cancer Alley" here in South Louisiana, that I would wonder what petro by-products might be in that rainwater. But I'm not sure how that works (rainwater picking up pollution from refineries) anyway. Hmmm...it's something to think about.

By the way, Betta went back into his hex last night and has a huge bubblenest already today. I think he likes his plants---and his water!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Excellent! 

I saw something the other day on someone carbon filtering rainwater to try and remove some of the contaminants. that and polyfilter might make it safer. No real way to know tho without testing it.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

The water that comes off the roof when there has been a light shower is pretty dirty, and so I usually collect when there has been a more extensive rain. I have had no problems with it. We get about 55 inches of rain a year here in Mississippi, and so it is easier to get good quality rain water than it would be in, say, Arizona. The rain that falls in the spring, winter, and fall is quite clean, but during the summer, there is a slight problem with acid rain, and the pH of the rain water can get below 4.0. The rest of the year it is around 5.5, which means that it is clean. We get our rain from gulf moisture, which comes up from the gulf pretty clean. In the period of summer stagnation, the weather moves from east to west, and we can get rain falling from polluted air that comes from the steel mills in Alabama. Actually, that rain might be harmless, too, once some lime has been added to get the pH up and some calcium in there. 

My tap water is from a local municipal well, and all the wells around here produce soft, but alkaline water with a pH of 8.6 and a KH of around 10 or 11, and a GH of 0. Apparently there is some sort of natural softening process going on underground where calcium and magnesium are taken up and replaced with sodium. I can grow plants in it, but it is harder to get ground limestone to supply enough calcium than it is with rain water. I always thought that sodium bicarbonate was sort of useless, anyway. If you want to increase your GH, why not use calcium and magnesium bicarbonates, which not only increase GH, but also supply two needed plant nutrients.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

javalee said:


> Thanks, HeyPK and Diana, for the comments on our unusual water parameters. My GH is 0 and my KH is 20d.
> 
> HeyPK, your suggestion seemed really reasonable. I never thought of using rainwater. I DO have problems raising the GH by adding CaCl2 and MgSO4 since it must be precipitating out with the HCO3 and leaving my GH never higher than 2dGH.
> 
> By the way, Betta went back into his hex last night and has a huge bubblenest already today. I think he likes his plants---and his water!


Hi Javalee,

Sounds like your Betta is thrilled with his new home-- _so much _better than a little teeny bowl! 

I'm curious about your problem with raising the GH. The added calcium certainly could be precipitating with the bicarbonate. In that case, you should be seeing reduced alkalinity. Also, you should be seeing a little water cloudiness as you add the calcium/magnesium solutions.

Did you neutralize a little of the water's alkalinity before adding the calcium and magnesium? I think that this would help.

I haven't had to deal with this problem with my tanks, so I'll be interested in your ideas (and that of others) on this topic.


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Diana, yes, my pH is dropping in this tank. Our tap water comes out at 8.6. My "plastic" tank is around 8.2 (depending on how much the filter outflow splashes), and the 10g NPT to which I have added the CaCl2 and MgSO4 is now around 7.7. The GH is 2d. The KH has dropped from 20d to 16d.

I quit trying to raise it any higher. I simply replace after water changes with ~8dGH water (using CaCl2 and MgSO4). The GH always remains 2d. When I first started with these additives I was able to get it up around 9dGH, but it didn't stay that way long. However, I'm pleased with all my plants' health and growth rates so...I figure "if it ain't broke..." But how would I neutralize the alkalinity? I haven't tried that.

HeyPK, now that I've noticed your location, I see why we have similar water parameters. I used to live in Jackson, where I was a new and bad fish keeper. I've always wondered how all my fish survived the move from Jackson to South Louisiana since i drained their tank in Jackson and filled it with local tapwater when we arrived here. Now I see that I replaced their Jackson water with the exact same water here! Those fish got lucky. 

The only problem with the rainwater solution is that our rains have not been as reliable as they used to. We've had too many droughts and dry spells for me to depend on it regularly. Our outdoor goldfish, however, don't seem to have any problems after heavy rains.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

javalee said:


> But how would I neutralize the alkalinity? I haven't tried that.


Any dilute acid (HCl, H2SO4) would work-- convert the bicarbonate ion, which alkalinity measures, to CO2 and H2O.

However, if your fish and plants are fine, I would leave well enough alone. It sounds like you've got a good system going!


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