# complete beginner - setting up a 20g High...



## RoseyD

Hi folks, As I approach my next birthday, I've come up with the idea of having my first fish-tank. I found this forum a few weeks ago and love the idea of low-tech and natural plants. So, I bought a 20 gal High glass tank from craigslist, it came with a hood and basic light, and a heater, and a penguin 125 filter... and stand - for $50. It was green when I picked it up, but it washed up easily with a new scrub pad and lots of elbow power.  

In reading that I'd need more light than the basic one that came on the hood, I have ordered a Satellite single flourescent with integrated lunar light - 10K daylight/460 arcinic - 65Watt. I'm hoping that this will be enough light for all plant types? 

I ordered some eco-complete gravel stuff, and a small box of laterite. I know I need to buy some organic soil to go under it, and will visit home-depot once the light arrives. 

Since I have never owned a fish before, and the idea of killing them off isn't a pleasant one - I'm trying to be as prepared as possible. I've been reading about fishless vs. fish cycles - do planted aquariums usually go fishless for the cycling process? Am I supposed to add ammonia as I would to a non-planted tank? 

Then, the next big worry I'm having is how to know how many plants to order? and what types of plants will suit the lighting. (The tank is 24 x 12 and 18 tall) Can I use decorations in there too? or does one have to cover the whole bottom with plants to get the correct CO2 release so as to not kill the plants? ... I'd like to make things pretty in there - but I do wonder whether the 'decor' non-planted areas would affect the ability to create the proper 'bio-sphere' that would make it low-tech rather than high. 

I'm gathering that it'll be months before I can buy a fish - is this right? 

Finally - some plants are a lot prettier than others. - Am I only supposed to use plants that are algae preventative types? Or fast growers? ... Or can I mix in more decorative kinds too?  

In browsing various internet sites for pictures of plants - I like the look of the diandra, chinese ivy, mermaid weed, money wart, dwarf baby tears, lemon bacopa, micro-swords, banana plants, and moss balls - but if I chose all of those - will I still have any room left to add other decorations? Is one of each enough? Should I cut back the list to less types of plants but more of each? How does one figure out the whole decorating thing - to make the tank 'look' natural, instead of pell-mell chaos?

I'm sure I have plenty of other questions ... bear with me.  

Thanks in advance for all suggestions and advice you all have. 

-Rose


----------



## Philosophos

A 10,000k/460 actinic will work well, and give your tank a fairly blue-ish look. Light color is a very open choice, and should be about aesthetics more than spectrum.

65w CF over a 20g will work, make sure you get legs. At this high of a light level, I'd strongly suggest compressed CO2. A lack of CO2 will cause all kinds of interesting algae. If you don't want to pay out for a compressed CO2 system, do a lower light setup (1.5wpg max) with DIY CO2 (yeast and sugar, cheap and easy).

You can get over your cycle early through a few of the more reliable starter bacteria cultures, seeding off some one elses filter, etc. If you go with the classic route, ammonia or hearty fish can work. As you start doing higher density planted tanks, the cycle matters less.

I'm not sure what you mean by CO2 release. You don't have to cover your substrate completely, I have never had a substrate start pushing out bubbles of NO3/H2SO4 etc. on me. The concern gets a lot of attention for some reason.

Plants won't prevent algae, if anything the nutrients required and their delicate surfaces (can't scrub a plant) makes algae more of an issue when you start getting out of just tossing some java fern/moss in a tank. Making it so algae is under control is more a matter of correct nutrient levels, light and CO2; the plants will out-compete the algae.

As for looks, what you keep is a matter of CO2 and light distribution. Allegedly "high light" plants can be kept in low, even light. At the same time, the CO2 is high enough, and other nutrients ballanced. There's a very large gallery of ADA show tanks proving this.

Composition takes time to learn. Watch what the award winning tanks are doing, read on their principles, and those of good artistic design. There are a lot of resources if you go looking. The principles of balance, the golden mean, perspective, color, light and so on still hold in a planted tank as much as on canvas.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, trying to reason it out. I thought the CO2 was coming out of the dirt, goes to show you what I know about biology. 

I don't like the idea of all the tubes and bottles, (I have cats and can just imagine what trouble they'd get into with those, if I wasn't around to watch them...) hence I would rather get the lighting corrected rather than deal with a mess hanging off the back to tempt the cats to . So, if my light is too strong - can I just change the bulb to a lower one? Or do I have to buy a different fixture? Since I haven't received it yet - (arriving Friday) - I guess I could return it and order something else more in keeping to what will work best for having the most uncomplicated set-up possible. 

So I need some sort of lighting that will do '30 watts'?


----------



## RoseyD

sorry - for multi-post - I got caught in a network lag.


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, doing more thinking... 

I saw a thread that was posted a while back about low/med/high lighting - and the varying times of being lit - that would be attributed to each (to prevent algae growth). So - this is what's in my head... 

If I have the tank in a South facing room - placed between two windows - that get direct sun during the summer from about 10:30 am - about 4:30 pm. And in Winter - from about 11:30 am - 2:30pm (approx). The tank isn't positioned in direct sunlight, but the rooms are very 'bright' during those times. 

If I were to keep the 65watt light and have it on a timer - say ... set from 7 am - 11 am? and allowed the room's natural light to take over the rest of the plants' lighting requirements. Could this be a valid approach to keep the tank less over-ridden with Algaes? (and help combat the need for supplemental tank accessories?)

The other thread stated that from 3-4 is high light - and would require 7-8 hours of light only. If I am cutting back to 4 hours and use indirect-real sun for the other 4  hours... would this be enough? 

I suppose that in winter, I would have to have a secondary timer to add more light to the second part of the afternoon, to combat the lack of sunlight that comes with daylight savings time/winter reduced daylight... Heck, this all seems really experimental to me... and since I have no tank experience at all, I'm wondering if it's an experiment worth trying or not. 

Return the light and buy a lower 'wattage'? Or experiment?


----------



## dwalstad

My answers are below:



RoseyD said:


> In reading that I'd need more light than the basic one that came on the hood, I have ordered a Satellite single flourescent with integrated lunar light - 10K daylight/460 arcinic - 65Watt. I'm hoping that this will be enough light for all plant types?
> 
> ***Sounds like plenty of light for a 20 gal. Actinic is not ideal for planted tanks (its blue light is designed for deep seawater corals not freshwater aquatic plants). However, with the intensity and the daylight you've chosen, it probably will be okay. Keep lights on at least 12 hrs.
> 
> I ordered some eco-complete gravel stuff, and a small box of laterite. I know I need to buy some organic soil to go under it, and will visit home-depot once the light arrives.
> 
> *** I would use a 1 inch layer of Miracle Gro Organic Choice. You can put a little laterite on the bottom and add the Eco-Complete to the top.
> 
> Am I supposed to add ammonia as I would to a non-planted tank?
> 
> ***No, an unsterilized soil and plants should take care of the ammonia.
> 
> Then, the next big worry I'm having is how to know how many plants to order? and what types of plants will suit the lighting. (The tank is 24 x 12 and 18 tall) Can I use decorations in there too? or does one have to cover the whole bottom with plants to get the correct CO2 release so as to not kill the plants?
> 
> ***I would just order as many plants as you can afford. A few decorations should be okay. A little area without plants is fine.
> 
> I'm gathering that it'll be months before I can buy a fish - is this right?
> 
> ***I add fish the same day. But if you're starting out, you could wait a couple weeks. See if your plants are doing well first in their new home. Then add the fish.
> 
> Finally - some plants are a lot prettier than others. - Am I only supposed to use plants that are algae preventative types? Or fast growers? ... Or can I mix in more decorative kinds too?
> 
> ***Decorative is fine. The main thing is too have lots of plant species and plant densely.
> 
> In browsing various internet sites for pictures of plants - I like the look of the diandra, chinese ivy, mermaid weed, money wart, dwarf baby tears, lemon bacopa, micro-swords, banana plants, and moss balls How does one figure out the whole decorating thing - to make the tank 'look' natural, instead of pell-mell chaos?
> 
> ***I let the plants decide. Try a lot of different plants and then go with the plants that do well for you. If you adhere to a rigid decorating scheme, you may have an unhappy tank.


----------



## RoseyD

Thanks for the advice, Mrs. Walstad. I ordered some plants from online - from AzAquatics and I hope that they'll arrive healthy - their website does a thursday live shipping - so I have about a week before I can expect to see them, and I told my downstairs neighbor to expect them - so the package won't sit outside in the heat any longer than necessary. 

The plants I decided on - for the tank are: 
Baby Tears, (2)
Four Leaf Dwarf Clover, 
Moss balls, (2)
Riccia Grass, (2)
HairGrass, (3)
WaterSprite,(2) 
Red Temple, 
Silvermist Foxtail, 
Pennywart, 
Moneywart, 
Bacopa Caroliniana, (2)
Purple Calomba. 

19 plants for 24"x12" - but I'm thinking the watersprites will just float and block out some of the intense light for the 'eventual' fishies. ... I don't know much about the site I ordered from - but they seem to have some really cool schooling fish that I hadn't seen mentioned on other internet sites I've been browsing for ideas. I totally loved the look of the hummingbird tetra and the gertrude blue eye rainbow fish... I'm loving the idea of a bunch of small schools of tetras, the lemons, embers, and now those rainbows... all just swimming crazily among the greenery.


----------



## Philosophos

Actinic on its own may not grow bulbs well, but in combination with 10,000k on CF it does a pretty good job.

Coralife's actinic on its own:









But a 50/50 isn't nearly so bad:









And not so different from a 6700k:









It actually does a pretty good job matching up with the low range of PAR/PUR:









Most of the time though, so long as you're within visible light range, it doesn't matter much. Green light (~520-560) is popular right now thanks to ADA, and it's got the worst matching for PAR.

How a 65w can go over 20g, with non-co2 and that lamp and fixture, without causing some nice algae blooms is a bit beyond me. Add a 12 hour light cycle on and I could only imagine what would happen. How is this supposed to balance out?

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

goodness! graphs and everything are really a bit too scientific for me... outdoor plants sure do seem a whole bunch easier. Sunny, partial sun, shady - most of the plants are even sold with pictures so you can best decipher where to plant them. 

So, moving the plants indoors, and planting them under water, and now I have to think graphs... 

I went to B&Noble over lunch looking for the walstad book but it wasn't on the shelf. So, It looks like I'll have to order it online and wait a while. I found a book called "freshwater aquariums for dummies". I think that may be my level right about now. 

I have a lot more reading to do, over the weekend. And, my first three boxes (out of 5) are arriving from Dr. Fosters today. - meaning I can start setting up the tank, and go buy my miracle grow organic. ... My dummies book has a whole section on chemicals, so maybe it may give me enough courage to test my tap water and find out what I've got to work with. 

As for lighting - if Mrs Walstad says start with 12 hours- I believe her. She seems to know what she's doing. 

If it starts going green, and it's a light issue - I may have to research some more lighting options. And seek more advice as I go. I hope my apartment doesn't start smelling like a swamp...


----------



## Philosophos

RoseyD said:


> So, moving the plants indoors, and planting them under water, and now I have to think graphs...


Don't worry about the graphs right now. It was more to illustrate that it doesn't matter much, because they're all stunningly similar. You can even find non-aquarium lamps that give the right output to grow plants with quite nicely.



RoseyD said:


> My dummies book has a whole section on chemicals, so maybe it may give me enough courage to test my tap water and find out what I've got to work with.


Just contact your water company for an in-depth report, specifying the chemicals you're concerned about. They should give you the info for free.[/quote]



RoseyD said:


> As for lighting - if Mrs Walstad says start with 12 hours- I believe her. She seems to know what she's doing.


Well there's part of the issue. There are others with equal reputation that disagree. I have seen 12 hours work for low lighting; I won't doubt that. I just can't see how 12 hours with high lighting would work, and have typically seen evidence to the contrary. Things get even worse if there's a lack of CO2. Plants have their limits, mostly in the form of fixation processes, or from a lacking nutrient. This idea is new to me, and contradicts previous knowledge, so I'm looking for a bit of evidence and explanation.



RoseyD said:


> If it starts going green, and it's a light issue - I may have to research some more lighting options. And seek more advice as I go. I hope my apartment doesn't start smelling like a swamp...


It's not just light, there's filtration and other nutrients. You'll figure it out as you go along; your nutrient rich substrate will make things far more forgiving. Use the soil, without a doubt; eco-complete doesn't have any bioavailable nutrients in it. As Tom Barr put it, the nutrients in eco complete are great if you think you can breath silicone oxide.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

Well, I'm looking at the whole process as an experiment. I'm not the most technically inclined person around... actually, I'm a bit challenged in that category... but, seems like a cool project to attempt, and if I make it to surviving the cycling/start-up to 'getting some fish', my cats will enjoy watching them more than watching tv.  

I'll be sure to let you know what comes of it.


----------



## Sue Samson

I think the problem you're running into (which I see a lot on planted tank forums) is that you're getting different answers from proponents of different types of planted tanks. The fact is that people have successful planted tanks with a range of methods. The simplest is the one you have chosen by coming to the NPT forum. That means a 3/4-1" layer of soil under a gravel cap, no added fertilizers, light at a range of usually 1.5-2 watts per gallon, and plants that do well in those conditions (some plants need more light or added ferts). Those of us with tanks like this get slow but steady growth and a nice tank that doesn't need a lot of fussing.

Other methods may vary in that they: add a commercial product (Excel) to give the plants more carbon, add other fertilizers, and require at least modest weekly water changes - right up to really "hi-tech" tanks that have CO2 gas dispersed in the water for the carbon source, lots of ferts, big water changes, and light at 3-4 wpg. The differences have to do, I think, with what people like from their aquariums. If you like to move plants around a lot and fuss, the soil-based tanks are a problem because soil comes up when you pull up a rooted plant. Move a lot of them and you have a tank of mud. Plant growth is slow. The high tech tanks have really fast growth and usually a specialized aquarium substrate that doesn't cause the problem with moving plants that soil does. It seems people with these aquariums spend a lot of time messing with their CO2 setups.

By coming to the NPT forum, you seem to have chosen the natural method, which doesn't use added ferts or CO2 gas, so when you ask a question and the answer is "add CO2," "more CO2" or "more light" you are getting an answer from someone who is using a method other than the one you seem to want to try. You'll probably have the best success if you decide up front which way you want to go and stick to it. IMO as a beginner a NPT in accordance with Ms. Walstad's methods is probably the best way to have a nice aquarium without making it your life's work or spending yourself into the poor house.

Good luck.


----------



## Philosophos

Sue Samson said:


> I think the problem you're running into (which I see a lot on planted tank forums) is that you're getting different answers from proponents of different types of planted tanks.


I keep a range of tanks. I know how to make a stable system with less requirements than some NPT's, or all the way up to high tech. I'm a proponent of the system that works best for the purpose, I employ the methods that are appropriate at the time. Please do not make a straw man out of me.



Sue Samson said:


> The fact is that people have successful planted tanks with a range of methods. The simplest is the one you have chosen by coming to the NPT forum. That means a 3/4-1" layer of soil under a gravel cap, no added fertilizers, light at a range of usually 1.5-2 watts per gallon, and plants that do well in those conditions (some plants need more light or added ferts). Those of us with tanks like this get slow but steady growth and a nice tank that doesn't need a lot of fussing.


2wpg if the light source is on the poorer side (which has little to do with cost) as low as 1 under the new blazing T5HO's and their reflectors.



Sue Samson said:


> Other methods may vary in that they: add a commercial product (Excel) to give the plants more carbon, add other fertilizers, and require at least modest weekly water changes - right up to really "hi-tech" tanks that have CO2 gas dispersed in the water for the carbon source, lots of ferts, big water changes, and light at 3-4 wpg.


High tech is not to be confused with high light. I'm working at a 2wpg high tech system; hardly high light. I want slow growth; the speed and growth forms of the plants change under these conditions. It will be fertilized, just as any other method is. Whether you call it fish food or KNO3, the nutrients need a way in. Big water changes aren't a must either, there are methods that advocate ways of getting around them. For some, big water changes are a requirement of the fish as much as the plants.



Sue Samson said:


> The differences have to do, I think, with what people like from their aquariums. If you like to move plants around a lot and fuss, the soil-based tanks are a problem because soil comes up when you pull up a rooted plant. Move a lot of them and you have a tank of mud. Plant growth is slow. The high tech tanks have really fast growth and usually a specialized aquarium substrate that doesn't cause the problem with moving plants that soil does. It seems people with these aquariums spend a lot of time messing with their CO2 setups.


So I take it you don't know Takashi Amano's work in much detail then? He has tanks that are low light, but otherwise extremely high tech, maintained in the same scape for years at a time. At most he replaces the substrate yearly, which is pretty obsessive. He ferts on the light side though, and depends on his substrate for nutrients. With high fert dosing, ADA AS lasts a good 3-4 years, and some people will maintain that same setup for hardware the entire time.



Sue Samson said:


> By coming to the NPT forum, you seem to have chosen the natural method, which doesn't use added ferts or CO2 gas, so when you ask a question and the answer is "add CO2," "more CO2" or "more light" you are getting an answer from someone who is using a method other than the one you seem to want to try. You'll probably have the best success if you decide up front which way you want to go and stick to it. IMO as a beginner a NPT in accordance with Ms. Walstad's methods is probably the best way to have a nice aquarium without making it your life's work or spending yourself into the poor house.


Again, you're creating a straw man out of me, and many others who keep a range of tanks including high tech ones. Please stop, it's rude. Also, when criticizing what I say, I would appreciate being addressed directly rather than being the ambiguous, "someone" doing things in the manner of the social out-group image you seem to be trying to create. Doing this does not bring a community of hobbyists closer together. We're all adults here, and direct, clear speech makes things far easiers. I'm not trying to be mean, but rather seeking more open and honest communication.

I advocated decreasing the light, or finding CO2. Diana wanted to leave the light, and increase the photperiod. In my experience with aquariums, I find NPT's and El Natural tanks running 2wpg and then turning to DIY CO2, when they could as easily reduce light.

Also, because an individual is posting on this board (in this case RoseyD) this does not mean they have to be a blind adherent to the system it espouses. Hybridized methods are common, including fert dosing methods and very often NPT with DIY CO2 strapped on it. In my mind, A tank like Rosey's either needed to keep the light and move away from NPT or El Natural, or reduce the light to maintain an aquarium of that sort. Diana has a different view, and seems to be fine with 3wpg using her methods, which I find in contrast to my past experience. I would love to know if and how this higher light system would work, since it contradicts what I know right now.

-Philosophos


----------



## clearleaf

Philosophos said:


> In my experience with aquariums, I find NPT's and El Natural tanks running 2wpg and then turning to DIY CO2, when they could as easily reduce light.
> 
> -Philosophos


I have a feeling that if this is the case, it is because of a desire for increased growth rates rather than decreased algae.

Ms. Walstad generally suggests 1-2wpg, plus sunlight, if I recall. Rosey is looking at 3wpg, and I know Diana said she thought that was okay and to up the photoperiod to 12hrs, but that kind of goes against what I understood of her process. So either it was a simple mistake or perhaps she feels the lack of 'useable' wavelength of actinic negates the impact of the intensity of the light. I'm curious as well.


----------



## dwalstad

clearleaf said:


> I have a feeling that if this is the case, it is because of a desire for increased growth rates rather than decreased algae.
> 
> ***This is correct. You want the plants to get the light they need for maximal growth. With the soil underlayer, you'll get enough CO2 for some pretty good growth.
> 
> Ms. Walstad generally suggests 1-2wpg, plus sunlight, if I recall. Rosey is looking at 3wpg, and I know Diana said she thought that was okay and to increase the photoperiod to 12hrs, but that kind of goes against what I understood of her process. So either it was a simple mistake or perhaps she feels the lack of 'useable' wavelength of actinic negates the impact of the intensity of the light.


I am going to up my original light recommendations from the original 1-2 wpg. I'm getting better plant growth using more light. The reason I didn't recommend more light before was that there weren't CFLs when I orginally set up my NPTs back in 1988. With CFLs, its much easier to get more wattage/light intensity on top of the tank. For example, my little 5 gal (see pic below) has 28 watts of CFL (clamp light with 10 watt screw-in bulb, 6700K) and a light fixture with two 9 watt CFLs. Daylength is 14 hrs (with a 4 hr afternoon siesta). Plants are growing like crazy. I haven't seen a wisp of algae.

In your situation, the actinic isn't _theoretically_ ideal, but it may work fine since it is combined with the other bulb. In my opinion, light spectrum isn't as important as having enough light and a long enough daylength. You need both.


----------



## Philosophos

You wouldn't happen to keep a PAR meter around would you? Maybe a meter for disolved CO2? If you've done it, then I'm curious about the science behind it.

-Philosophos


----------



## melauriga

dwalstad said:


> I am going to up my original light recommendations from the original 1-2 wpg. I'm getting better plant growth using more light. The reason I didn't recommend more light before was that there weren't CFLs when I orginally set up my NPTs back in 1988. With CFLs, its much easier to get more wattage/light intensity on top of the tank. For example, my little 5 gal (see pic below) has 28 watts of CFL (clamp light with 10 watt screw-in bulb, 6700K) and a light fixture with two 9 watt CFLs. Daylength is 14 hrs (with a 4 hr afternoon siesta). Plants are growing like crazy. I haven't seen a wisp of algae.
> 
> In your situation, the actinic isn't _theoretically_ ideal, but it may work fine since it is combined with the other bulb. In my opinion, light spectrum isn't as important as having enough light and a long enough daylength. You need both.


That is a beautiful tank. Do you have any plans for a new book containing your latest recommendations?

I have also had better results with more light than your original recommendations. I started out with a single 15w fluorescent tube on my 10 gallon and later added a second fixture to double the light. The plants grew a lot better and no algae issues.


----------



## dwalstad

melauriga said:


> That is a beautiful tank. Do you have any plans for a new book containing your latest recommendations?
> 
> I have also had better results with more light than your original recommendations. I started out with a single 15w fluorescent tube on my 10 gallon and later added a second fixture to double the light. The plants grew a lot better and no algae issues.


Thank you Melauriga for the backup. I have two 1 gal bowls with 13 watts of CFL. Plant growth looks as good (if not better) than in the 5 gal. For the fifth reprinting of my book in 2010, I do plan to increase my original lighting recommendations-- in terms of both daylength and light intensity.

ClearLeaf, I realized my answer was confusing. My recommendation for a minimum 12 hr daylength was not to compensate for the Actinic light you're using. It was to give the plants the daylength many of them need to do best-- irrespective of the light intensity or Actinic lights you'll be using. A daylength shorter than 12 hours may cue plants into thinking that winter is coming on and "I need to stop growing and start shutting down for winter". You want the daylength to cue plants into thinking that its spring/summer, and thus, keep growing.


----------



## clearleaf

heh, thanks, I'm not the one using the 50/50 actinic bulbs but the original poster, RoseyD is (shows how much the thread kind of got derailed).

But this is good to know. I recently did set up a low-tech mostly natural tank with a large amount of light, about 6wpg over a 10g for 10hrs which I have recently changed to about 2wpg for 12hrs. When I got the initial break-in algae I nearly tore the plants out and started over. But one day there was a snail explosion, and they managed to knock out enough that my otto's were able to keep up and a week later it was spotless. 

So as a tip to Rosey, have PATIENCE (and a little green thumb doesn't hurt) and your tank should work out fine. Keep an eye on which plants are doing well, and if you see a certain species that refuses to live, I'd pull those out and replace them with the types that are growing. Work with what you've got.


----------



## Philosophos

dwalstad said:


> Thank you Melauriga for the backup. I have two 1 gal bowls with 13 watts of CFL. Plant growth looks as good (if not better) than in the 5 gal. For the fifth reprinting of my book in 2010, I do plan to increase my original lighting recommendations-- in terms of both daylength and light intensity.
> 
> ClearLeaf, I realized my answer was confusing. My recommendation for a minimum 12 hr daylength was not to compensate for the Actinic light you're using. It was to give the plants the daylength many of them need to do best-- irrespective of the light intensity or Actinic lights you'll be using. A daylength shorter than 12 hours may cue plants into thinking that winter is coming on and "I need to stop growing and start shutting down for winter". You want the daylength to cue plants into thinking that its spring/summer, and thus, keep growing.


Wouldn't a tropical plant experience constant 12 hour days, minus the shade created by being immersed? They wouldn't experience any real seasonal heliotropism near the equator either. My experience living around lakes and rivers would say that a large part of them lack 12 hours of full sunlight even in the months of greater than 12 hours sunlight.

In terms of north american plants that would be predisposed to photoperiod alterations, why do their leaves close after 8 hours under high light, but not at all with a 12 hour period under low light? I watch it happen daily with the same species of plants.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

Thanks Clearleaf, I wont give up hope so easily after learning your algae story, and good results. I may need to put some algae eaters on my list of 'near future' fish for that tank though... I already have in mind to have some betta females in there. And perhaps some tetras... 

I'd not really considered the algae fish much, although I've heard that Bettas get along well with cory's, I suppose ottos would be ok with them too? 

Do shrimp and snails eat the same type of algae? would a few Amanos do the job or are we talking large scale invertabrate tank to keep the algae levels down? 

My neighbors all say I have a green thumb, but I've never tried water plants before. And, my luck with inside plants have always been spotty. Outdoors - my garden is thriving... especially now that the month of June rain has finally ended in New England.


----------



## Johnriggs

Sometimes I think we fret and fidget too much.  

Wife and I went away for twelve days on vacation; when we came back her vegetable garden was bursting with produce and my aquariums had plants crawling out the tops. They did better with us away then with us pestering them all the time. I took the hint; I stand back and let nature do its thing with minimal interference from me. I have African Dwarf Frogs in my six gallon tank, hardy little creatures who took well to el natural. This was an experiment for me; I plan on setting up a sixty gallon tank with a colony of 20 ADFs one of these days.

John R


----------



## clearleaf

RoseyD said:


> I'd not really considered the algae fish much, although I've heard that Bettas get along well with cory's, I suppose ottos would be ok with them too?
> 
> Do shrimp and snails eat the same type of algae? would a few Amanos do the job or are we talking large scale invertabrate tank to keep the algae levels down?


Didn't realize nobody had replied to this. I don't have any experience with shrimp or bettas, but I've heard and seen that female bettas are generally less temperamental. Here's a thread where Orion kept a handful of female bettas with 3 ottos, so at least THAT seems safe. I don't know about shrimp, though. Perhaps once the shrimp had grown large enough, they might not get snacked on.

As far as I know they all essentially eat the same stuff, although ottos don't really eat detritus - just algae and veggies you toss in. I think shrimp might be more efficient at consuming the junk at the bottom of the tank than snails, by virtue of simply moving faster, but I have no experience. And also from what I've read, they can turn into prolific breeders, so only buying a few would probably be enough.


----------



## dwalstad

Philosophos said:


> Wouldn't a tropical plant experience constant 12 hour days, minus the shade created by being immersed? They wouldn't experience any real seasonal heliotropism near the equator either. My experience living around lakes and rivers would say that a large part of them lack 12 hours of full sunlight even in the months of greater than 12 hours sunlight.
> 
> In terms of north american plants that would be predisposed to photoperiod alterations, why do their leaves close after 8 hours under high light, but not at all with a 12 hour period under low light? I watch it happen daily with the same species of plants.
> 
> -Philosophos


I can't answer your question about leaves closing up after 8 hr. Interesting!

Many plants in aquarium hobby (Val, Sag, _Bacopa_ sp, _E. tenellus_, etc) are temperate, so they have seasonal cycles (winter v. summer daylengths).

My recommendation for a minimum 12-14 hr daylength is based on Christel Kasselmann's recommendation in _Aquarium Plants_ (2003, p. 52).

Not every plant species will eventually disintegrate with a 8-10 hr daylength, but a 12 hr daylength better accommodates the majority of aquarium plants. In the interest of keeping things simple, a 12 hr plus daylength can't hurt and would probably mean all the difference for some plant species.

A 12 hr daylength doesn't mean that the lights must be uniformly bright throughout the 12 hr. The Siesta regimen that I use mimics natural conditions where the sun may be hidden behind clouds for part of the day. The main thing is that plants "think" that their day is at least 12 hr long.


----------



## Philosophos

dwalstad said:


> I can't answer your question about leaves closing up after 8 hr. Interesting!


It seems to be necessary for the plants to be getting a ton of light (no par meter, can't be exact) near the surface with very high (30+ppm) CO2 levels, and something around the colins-sears levels of nutrients with some extra PO4. These plants will always be pearling heavily when this happens under their current conditions. So far it's most noticeable and reliable in undemanding stems; L. repens, R. rotundifolia, B. monieri, H. micranthemoides.

The times I was giving for my own photperiods were without the 2 hour break considered. While they can close up after 8 hours total from lights on when conditions are favorable, it's more typically around the 9 hour mark.



dwalstad said:


> My recommendation for a minimum 12-14 hr daylength is based on Christel Kasselmann's recommendation in _Aquarium Plants_ (2003, p. 52).
> 
> Not every plant species will eventually disintegrate with a 8-10 hr daylength, but a 12 hr daylength better accommodates the majority of aquarium plants. In the interest of keeping things simple, a 12 hr plus daylength can't hurt and would probably mean all the difference for some plant species.
> 
> A 12 hr daylength doesn't mean that the lights must be uniformly bright throughout the 12 hr. The Siesta regimen that I use mimics natural conditions where the sun may be hidden behind clouds for part of the day. The main thing is that plants "think" that their day is at least 12 hr long.


It seems that in this book, the page you're citing features information that is self referenced and lacking submission for peer review. While this isn't a big deal, just saying that ones own research confirms it without giving the details of that research is more or less a glorified bare assertion fallacy. The bibliography definitely isn't lacking, but I can't tell who or if anyone is being referenced on page 52, since the author fails to leave any indication. It's all kind of frustrating; Kasselmann seems to be expecting people to arbitrarily take their word for things without offering the research in question.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is what mechanism forces plants to recognize that they need a certain number of hours of light, rather than a certain level of photosynthesis or respiration to be satisfied. Watching plants under high nutrient conditions close early, while essentially the very same plant (taken from the same bunch that came when ordered/purchased) fails to do so under low light, low CO2, low nutrient conditions even after a 12-14 hour photo period makes me wonder.

In my own experience, I've seen over-length photo periods mess things up quite nicely in my own and others aquariums when light levels are on the higher end. Varied light levels would obviously fix this. At the same time, far too short a photo period doubtlessly has the same effect. I've seen 10-14 hour days produce wonderful results, and I'd rather know why rather than to continue guessing. My conjecture on metabolism or imitating nature purely for the sake of it both seems to fall short of understanding why.

-Philosophos


----------



## clearleaf

I have a feeling that a review of literature (peer reviewed literature, even) is going to answer this the best. Frankly, perhaps it is NOT answered, and we the hobbiest are the ones who need to do the experiments. So far this has largely been the case. There are just so many variables that I imagine the cohort developed from the variety of tanks supplied on an international web-based forum is too small a sample size. But substrate and water quality alone...yeesh...


----------



## Philosophos

This is where I wish I had more room, and more equipment. There's a lot I'd love to test, but I'd need a nice little $5000 donation to get things started 

-Philosophos


----------



## melauriga

clearleaf said:


> Didn't realize nobody had replied to this. I don't have any experience with shrimp or bettas, but I've heard and seen that female bettas are generally less temperamental. Here's a thread where Orion kept a handful of female bettas with 3 ottos, so at least THAT seems safe. I don't know about shrimp, though. Perhaps once the shrimp had grown large enough, they might not get snacked on.
> 
> A betta "sorority" tank can be tricky, though it can be done. Even female bettas can be aggressive toward each other. It is generally recommended that you get at least 6 of them, and even then there can be problems with aggression. At one time I thought I wanted to try this, but after researching sorority tanks, I decided it wasn't worth the risk.


----------



## RoseyD

I feel really dirty. my plants arrived this morning and that was the sign to begin putting the tank together. I laid down a thin bit of laterite. then the inch of org. choice and then started planting. each few stems i covered with a handful of the eco complete the tank was 3/4th planted giving t room for my rock ornament and a bit of room for things to spread out. 

I began putting water in... and the whole tank is black! ev erything is now covered in substrate. 

did I say I feel dirty? my poor plants. now I imagine it will all eventually settle ... am I suposed to fill it all the way now? or wait with only about half fulll to see if Illl need to fix any of the plants now that part of their substrate is not covering them the way I did it Pre water?

my poor li'l plants ... they don't look all that happy right now.


----------



## Philosophos

Let it settle or do some water changes. I usually aim for water changes with new substrate, simply to get rid of the fine particulate matter. It'll help the fish and plants alike. Fill it up all the way.

Did you cap that rich organic substrate to prevent it from being stirred up easily?

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

capped ... I covered it all with eco complete ... was I supposed to put something on top of that too? 

i only have about 8 gallons in the tank and I put the light on it to try to help the plants 

there os a layre of floating black anf the water under that seens grey and cloudy but thw plants are visible now where they hadnt been before. 

I was thinking to skim the floating stuff... and try to restraighten the bottom a bit once i could see it better.


----------



## RoseyD

what a lot of work... I drained it and replanted it and put gravel on top of what now mostly seems a mix of soil and eco complete . and nowmy substrate is 3 layres and not the most even . but cleaner. I filled the tank 2/3rd of the way and the gravel is holding most of the dirt down now except fot what was arlready floating and not behaving kindly to my strainer technique. So a little remaining floating debris but a lot cleaner looking water. 

when a bit more of the cloudiness dissipates. I 'LL Take pictures. 

oh... on second planting ...some plants seemed to have disappeared. 17 plants were not enough. I hope the others will grow enough to me to take clippings soon... 3/4 of the tank has become 2/3rd...


----------



## clearleaf

Don't worry about the plants, they'll be just dandy. I've left plants floating in my water change bucket for days and days, no light no substrate just floating in water and the occasional paw from the rascal cat who only seems to like water she shouldn't drink, and they are still green and plantable. Some hardy plants like anubias can go for weeks like that. So don't worry about a cloudy tank. Some will melt as they adapt to your water, but it will probably be a slow process.

That much soil mixing with the water you will almost certainly get a bacterial bloom, white cloudiness (after the silt clears, that is). Some say to just do partial water changes daily. I personally think its best to fire up a filter and leave the tank alone for a few days, the bacteria will die off on its own. But others more expert than me may disagree.

All in all, don't worry about it, chalk it up as a learning experience. Next time you set up a tank you will know what NOT to do.  No amount of reading advice can teach that. Sit back and glower at an ugly box of grey light for a few days, but don't fret, it'll work out.


----------



## RoseyD

thanks clearleaf. Ive strained it 3 times now and let it sit between. the grey is long gone. it is white bit mostly see throgh now. I decided to move the bettas over to circlate it a little. I admit I am a bit afraid to put a filter on it just yet. things are still settling.

in a day or so, I may work up my courage though. 

the bettas are really happy. they are enjoying all the water and swimming the real plants. there are 4 in there

3 playing following the leader. and disappearing or backing off when the leader turns around annoyed. Topaz liked her 2 gal but she is loving 20 gal. 

so out of my 5 bettas ... 4 in a sorority and my littlest one is chilling in a 5 gal. --she's so much smaller than the others I'm afraid to risk her with all the big girls yet.


----------



## RoseyD

okay! lights off its really gray. I guess there's even more reason to leave the light on. 

Perhaps I should put the girls back in their bowls...


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, I did an ammonia test on the tank last night, and it's already up to .25 

when should I do the first water change? Am I supposed to wait for the nitrate spike? 

I admit I worried about the fish and took them out of the tank and put them back in their 2 gal. bowls. Not one of them is happy to lose all that swim space! - but I don't want to risk them to all the fluctuating chemicals - and if I'm supposed to wait for the nitrate spike - it'll be easier to do if I don't have to think about the fish' health being at risk.


----------



## Philosophos

Try something more hearty if you're going to cycle the slow way, and add more plants. Heavy enough plant load can make cycling almost redundant. You could also try filter seeding off someone you know who has an established tank.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I had put some of my fish' old gravel from the 2g. bowls in there to hold the plants down and had hoped that this would be enough to help the cycle along... I found some bulbs in the water section at walmart yesterday and dropped in 2 water lily and 4 of some leafy type plant who's name now escapes me. The directions on the back said that you just put them in the water and the bulbs will sink and root themselves in after 15 days or so ... hopefully with the amount of light I'm using - they'll grow pretty quickly, and help matters along. 

I am giving my friend the emperor 280 I bought (thinking now that it's too powerful a filter for my l'il labyrinth breathers) - and I ordered a Duetto 100 which supposedly will allow me to modify/lessen the gph. 

It should arrive this week and if the tank it cleared enough, and looking stable enough to handle a current without destroying my plant bed- I may actually attach and run the thing.


----------



## dwalstad

Sounds like you're holding your own here with a rough start.

Its good you added a layer gravel to hold down the Organic Choice. This soil is a bit buoyant until it gets thoroughly wetted and soaked. 

I would not use nitrates to gauge the safety of your tank. I would stick to measuring ammonia (and possibly nitrites). 

I suspect that if the ammonia is not increasing too rapidly that you could add the fish and just keep the ammonia under control with water changes.

Both the soil and the used gravel will provide nitrifying bacteria for your new tank. The bacteria just need to build up their population to become effective. Plants will help out-- assuming that they're actually growing and not decomposing.

Many tanks are a little tough getting started. Just hang in there!


----------



## RoseyD

Yes, the substrate is a lot thicker than it should be, but at least it's not floating 'much' anymore. the eco-complete was a disaster on top of the organic choice. It was too fine grained and 'light' that it just moved out of the way when the water was put in the tank - and half the bed was floating. Now half the bottom of the tank is probably thicker in the gravel, while the other side is thicker in the soil/eco-complete - for about 3 inches instead of the recommended 2. It's definitely not pretty - but, the fish all seemed to like it.  

I was trying to research the ammonia level with cycling and couldn't figure out what is considered the 'unhealthy' number where I should do a water change. Since .25 and then .50 was scary enough for me to remove the fish - when exactly should I do the water change? Am I supposed to let it get as high as 2? or 4? ... Hence the reason I removed my betta girls. I know that they will LOVE being back in that large tank. But, I wish I understood more about how the cycle works - if the ammonia is needed to feed the bacteria - then, by doing the water changes, I am impeding the bacteria growth, yes? - But if I don't do the water change, then I potentially kill the fish. 

I'll test the water again when I get home tonight and do the nitrite test too - (I thought it would be too quick to see t hem - but, if the cycle is that fast on planted tanks - it would be a real sense of relief to know that a water change or two and then I won't have to worry so much about chemistry levels hurting my new pets.


----------



## dwalstad

RoseyD said:


> But, I wish I understood more about how the cycle works - if the ammonia is needed to feed the bacteria - then, by doing the water changes, I am impeding the bacteria growth, yes? QUOTE]
> 
> No, not enough to matter. You want to encourage nitrifying bacteria to population levels suitable to your tank's ecosystem. Your goal is to get the plants to take up most of the ammonia, so there's no need to enhance the nitrifying bacteria population.
> 
> Therefore, I would do as many water changes as you want to get ammonia and nitrite levels down to levels that won't hurt your fish.


----------



## mudboots

RoseyD said:


> But, I wish I understood more about how the cycle works - if the ammonia is needed to feed the bacteria - then, by doing the water changes, I am impeding the bacteria growth, yes?
> 
> No, not enough to matter. You want to encourage nitrifying bacteria to population levels suitable to your tank's ecosystem. Your goal is to get the plants to take up most of the ammonia, so there's no need to enhance the nitrifying bacteria population.
> 
> Therefore, I would do as many water changes as you want to get ammonia and nitrite levels down to levels that won't hurt your fish. QUOTE]
> 
> Interesting. I just finished a cycle of antibiotics in my npt at the advice of fishfarmacy due to an infection in some of my fish (they all died by the way) and was concerned that I have obliterated my good-bacteria colony. My plants are finally starting to put on new growth, even in low light (1.25wpg). So shall I assume that all is not lost regarding harmful levels of ammonia building up? As a note, I have not yet stocked with fish except a brsitlenose, 3 cories, and a Syn.cat. The tank has a couple dozen Gambusia sp. and ghost shrimp caught locally to keep things going until I decide what to put in.


----------



## mudboots

I guess my post was a little misleading now that I look at it. When I say all of the fish died I only mean the 5 that were infected with the bact.hemm.sept. infection.


----------



## dwalstad

> So shall I assume that all is not lost regarding harmful levels of ammonia building up?


Yes, all is far from lost.

I would let the nitrifying bacteria take care of themselves. The main goal is to stimulate plant growth that will take care of the ammonia and nitrites. In the meantime, water changes should help.


----------



## mudboots

Once again, thank you very much. One of these days I'll actually post a pic or two of this tank.


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, that helps a bit - I have to admit that I don't want to do too many water changes on a 20 gal. tank. It's a LOT of water ... I live in an attic apartment and if I am carrying water down in a 5 gal. pail for to put in my garden - that's a whole lot'a stairs... I'm going to have some killer shoulder muscles by the end of this feat, I'm sure...

Anyway - I tested the ammonia last night and it's .50 with 0 nitrites. I probably should do another water hardness test now that the water's sat a while. From the tap - I have GH/KH levels both at API test (4 drops), and my PH level tested at 8.2

I took some pictures and will post them so you can see the progress that the tank has taken in the last few days.

first - a picture of where the tank resides - just prior to starting this project.









Then, a picture of the tank's inhabitants at the end of that first night... 








And then, night 3 - last night - a few views... (I do my full light cycle at night - from 8 pm - 6:30 am, then allow the natural - indirect light to have its due for the 5 or so hours that the light hits those windows. 
which I may have to put in a different entry ... because I can't seem to figure out how to add more than 2...


----------



## RoseyD

so here are a few more views...


----------



## RoseyD

and some detail photos

























There ... that's all for now.

You'll note that some of my plants look really wilted. The four leaf clover came wilted, and it has not improved in the tank. The dwarf grass, some had been dry looking to start - and, while it seems to be growing a little - the dry'ness hasn't gone away. The baby tears are soooo cute! I really hope those will spread a bit.

And, I love my moss balls... 

And, finally - the floating stuff - it's growing new roots now, and the branches are something else - when the bettas were in there - they absolutely love that stuff. It helps a lot for them to hide among all the greenery, while remaining so close to the surface.


----------



## RoseyD

I should explain the timing thing ... I ordered a 'timer' so that I wouldn't have to be there to turn things on and off... 

But it won't be here for another few days - hence, it's timing out at about 10.5 hours (electric) light - Once the timer arrives, I won't have to shut the light off myself prior to leaving for the day... and can set the timer for 8 or 9 am or add in a really early morning siesta cycle or what have you - to prevent an eventual algae outbreak...


----------



## RoseyD

here is an update. I went to skiptons last night and bought 3 albino cories and a gold snail for the tank ... and some other fish for 2 other tank I set up 2 weeks ago that have been temp storing places for the bettas. 

I added the cories and THEY are crazy fish swimming all over at super speeds. at first I was concerned about how the girls would relate to them... they tried to keep up and couldnt do it. 

I also introduced the baby betta in ... thinking that if the bettas are all busy being confused by the cories they may not terrorize her. 

the next few days will tell on that.

Is the tank fully stocked now? 5 girl bettas and 3 a. cories. OH another change I added a duetto 100 to the tank...


----------



## RoseyD

and the apple snail is climbing the back wall... ammonia was still below 1 this morning... but I did a 15 percent water change to try to vacuum out the abundance of green filth that was gathering aaround the bottoms of the decorations. algae? decaying plants? mixture of both? the snail should have plenty to eat in there. There's a lot more green in this tank than the one I bought her from.


----------



## tug

RoseyD said:


> I am giving my friend the emperor 280 I bought (thinking now that it's too powerful a filter for my l'il labyrinth breathers) - and I ordered a Duetto 100 which supposedly will allow me to modify/lessen the gph.


Hi Rosey,
Looks like you're in this with both feet. Don't let a few graphs dissuade you from anyones advice. If there not saying what you want to hear it might still be worth listening to. I hope your friend wont mind if you ask for the emperor 280 back. I have a DJ 100 in my 20 gal. tank to skim the surface water but would never consider it capable of much else. Its flow rate at 90 gph will soon drop when the filter gets dirty and I am cleaning mine out once every 10 days. IMHO you should ask them for the E 280 back.op2:


----------



## Johnriggs

Those "Walmart bulbs" are Aponogetons, and in a lo-tech tank they will grow like wildfire. Mine grew so fast if you go for a cup of coffee and come back, they're bigger. In my opinion these are amongst the best buys in aquatic plants you can get. A couple of mine have floating leaves and emergent flowers. Took about two weeks to get to that stage from bulb state.

I love the water lilies too; if they actually sprout they're lovely. My success rate has been 50/50.

John R


----------



## Johnriggs

RoseyD said:


> Yes, the substrate is a lot thicker than it should be, but at least it's not floating 'much' anymore. the eco-complete was a disaster on top of the organic choice. It was too fine grained and 'light' that it just moved out of the way when the water was put in the tank - and half the bed was floating. Now half the bottom of the tank is probably thicker in the gravel, while the other side is thicker in the soil/eco-complete - for about 3 inches instead of the recommended 2. It's definitely not pretty - but, the fish all seemed to like it.
> 
> I was trying to research the ammonia level with cycling and couldn't figure out what is considered the 'unhealthy' number where I should do a water change. Since .25 and then .50 was scary enough for me to remove the fish - when exactly should I do the water change? Am I supposed to let it get as high as 2? or 4? ... Hence the reason I removed my betta girls. I know that they will LOVE being back in that large tank. But, I wish I understood more about how the cycle works - if the ammonia is needed to feed the bacteria - then, by doing the water changes, I am impeding the bacteria growth, yes? - But if I don't do the water change, then I potentially kill the fish.
> 
> I'll test the water again when I get home tonight and do the nitrite test too - (I thought it would be too quick to see t hem - but, if the cycle is that fast on planted tanks - it would be a real sense of relief to know that a water change or two and then I won't have to worry so much about chemistry levels hurting my new pets.


If you're using the API test, it measures total ammonia, both toxic ammonia (NH3) and non-toxic ammonium (NH4+), unfortunately.

Seachem makes a couple of sensors that measures ONLY free ammonia (the toxic kind, NH3). So your reading may indicate safe levels of harmless ammonium (NH4+) if you're going by the API or similar test kit. This drove me crazy back when I first started out. 

John R


----------



## RoseyD

Nah, I sold the emperor to her since I had never taken it out of the box. So, if it comes to needing a stronger filter, I'll order a new one. But I don't want to give up on the duettos yet. They're gentle enough that my bettas don't complain, or at least they don't look at me accusatorally as if to say - "why you making us WORK so hard?" 

The tank is looking very pretty, although I do have some questions regarding what I'm seeing in it... So, if you all don't mind - I'll post some pics and ask what's going on with my plants... 

The tank is still testing with the API kit at .50 ammonia. I've been doing 10 percent water changes about once every 3 days - just to keep things fresh. Still no nitrites.

All the fish seem really happy.


----------



## RoseyD

Now for questions - I have noticed that there's this scum looking thing at the bottom of where the plants are growing... is this my plants dying? Or is it algae?

















Then second ... some plants are showing growth up top - example the baby tears - but the original plant seems to be dissintegrating... is this normal? do I have too much light?


----------



## RoseyD

And one final example picture... of the plants behind the decorations...









things are in varying stages of decay growth, certainly - and the floating plant is thriving... but I wonder what is happening with the greenery below it.


----------



## RoseyD

Oh, I should probably state - The tank has 3.4 watts per gal. - and I run the lights 12 hours - 6 hours, 2 hour siesta, then 6 more hours.


----------



## tug

op2:


RoseyD said:


> The tank has 3.4 watts per gal. - and I run the lights 12 hours


It looks darker then "middle light" from the photo but any wpg rule is always changing. Watch out for BGA with that much light. Let the nitrate reach 10 - 20 ppm for the plants to e happy. Adding fish only helps plant health at some point. For now get more plants.

DIY spray bar! Duettos are great for that! A tuff little motor it has. This is a 20 gal tank and your flow rate will be around 3 cycles an hour with the DJ 100. A little low for the plants. Anyway, a spray bar is easy to make.


RoseyD said:


> I don't want to give up on the duettos yet.


The water circulation idea was more for you and not any concerns for the fish. They seam fine; the bright colors in clean water/glass just the same - maybe even brighter.


RoseyD said:


> All the fish seem really happy.





RoseyD said:


> The tank is still testing with the API kit at .50 ammonia. I've been doing 10 percent water changes about once every 3 days - just to keep things fresh. Still no nitrites.


Water flow across the air's surface helps with this too.


----------



## RoseyD

yes, I've been thinking a LOT about the state of my plants. It doesn't help that I don't remember most of the names 

the baby's tears are looking pretty pathetic. They are growing tall, but there's so much dead looking stuff at the base - that they don't look as clean and happy as they should for plants in the 'summer - light' scenario. 

The dwarf grass is looking good, getting taller and taller - there's still the dead bits that were there when I planted it a week ago - but, the rest all looks really healthy. 

The floating 'weed' is growing best of all of it, and my bettas appreciate it being there since it helps them to hide when one of the others is feeling territorial (I haven't noticed territory issues among them since adding those 3 hyper cories though.) 

The walmart bulbs - the lily bulbs are floating, and the other apono...(whatever)  - are lying on the substrate and not doing much. Yes, it's only been a week - So John, I'm glad you warned me to expect 2 weeks to see some results. (any time now .... show me some green, dear.) 

So, saying this - I am wondering what to put into my tank next... With seeing what's withering - I suppose I need plants that have similar lighting requirements to the dwarf grass, and not the baby tears... Or to those green leafy plants that I put on one side... They seem to be holding up well, but I don't know what they are. (Shame I'm so bad with names.) 

Oh... my moss balls are really doing well. They're becoming HUGE (the size of small baseballs) - I wonder how long it will take before they split in two.  

The snail is all over the place. For such a small critter - she really knows how to move around. I've watched her climb the glass, and then release so that she could float down to the bottom again... What a fascinating creature! I hope she'll do well in my tank and live a long happy life. 

Not that I want to have an explosion of snails or anything - but should I get a second one for her to have companionship? Will my water chemistry be able to support more than one, and how do I figure that out?


----------



## mudboots

Generally in a NPT your tank can handle a much heavier bioload than the usual recommendations, so a snail explosion wouldn't really hurt you. It'd actually feed the plants. Also, be patient with plants that aren't doing too well if they are relatively new to the tank. Sometimes they take a little time to adjust to your water. Some species are just more sensitive than others.

You mentioned lily bulbs from Walmart. Any idea what species they are? I've seen them before next to the Apon. bulbs but have never tried them. I tried the Apon. bulbs but my CAE ate the new growth off of them as it would come and I think they've finally given up.

As a side note, I've never measured any water parameters (hardness, pH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, et cetera) and haven't had any problems. I noticed you had mentioned them a couple of times. I just figured the plants would take care of whatever's going on in the tank. Out of curiosity, have you noticed how the fish act when readings are a little out of whack, or does you tank stay pretty consistent?


----------



## RoseyD

My readings haven't really fluctuated much, yet. I've tested every other day for ammonia - and, each time it has fluctuated between .25 and .5 - and the few times I've tested for Nitrites, none were showing. 

Every few days, I've done about 10% water change on the tank - just so that I can freshen up a little of the mess that's hanging out down at the bottom. I know it would be good fertilizer - but there's a part of me that wonders how much fertilizing I really need to do on a one week old tank. 

Have the fish reacted to the varying levels? They don't seem to. They're all happy swimmers, and when I come into the room, they come to the glass as if to say 'is it feeding time, yet?' ... 

the cory's don't beg - but my bettas - boy oh boy, do they love eating! 

Since this 20 gallon is only one of 3 tanks that I'm 'doing' - the other two are not natural planted - I will say that the ammonia levels are VERY quick to change on these 'fake' planted tanks. The readings are always between .50 and 1 - and, I do 40 - 50% changes every other day. I'm not seeing Nitrites yet on those tanks (also new) - but, I'm hoping the cycle will finish in it's alloted 5 weeks so that I can take a breath from some of these water changes. 

I think the planted tanks are a whole lot more addictive than the non-planted ones - the idea of less work - nothing wrong with that.  

Once all my 3 tanks are done - I'm already planning to set up another planted tank... (lessons learned and all that - hey, I need more practice).


----------



## RoseyD

I'm not intentionally ignoring the walmart plant question. - I kept the packaging for the water lily bulbs - and I'll post it when I find them...


----------



## tug

I almost forgot! Happy Birthday! Now, how old was that? :jaw:
Your LFS should have sword plants. Tell them its your birthday.
*Echinodorus parviflorus 'tropica' should be fine in your tank. I also have luck with my Cryptocoryne parva growing near some bog wood. *
I am glad you stayed with the Duetto 100. I see it in a new light. I've gone back to my DIY:frusty:/ modified version and found what might help it run closer to the 90 gph for a longer period. Take out the charcoal filter, save it for an emergence and replace it with the sponge and porous rock, or any biological filter like Eheim's ehfilav and forget I ever mentioned the spray bar idea.

A cat's love/hate relationship with a fish tank is a hoot! Mine likes to drink from it.


RoseyD said:


> Well, I'm looking at the whole process as an experiment. I'm not the most technically inclined person around... actually, I'm a bit challenged in that category... but, seems like a cool project to attempt, and if I make it to surviving the cycling/start-up to 'getting some fish', my cats will enjoy watching them more than watching tv.





Sue Samson said:


> The fact is that people have successful planted tanks with a range of methods. The simplest is the one you have chosen by coming to the NPT forum. That means a 3/4-1" layer of soil under a gravel cap, no added fertilizers, light at a range of usually 1.5-2 watts per gallon, and plants that do well in those conditions (some plants need more light or added ferts).


The lighting over a NPT and the plants we want to grow in them is why I come to this forum. IMO, the plus 3 Watts pg might suggest a modified EI / NPT approach. My water changes are now down to one every 21 days (longer if I want) and I modify everything.



Johnriggs said:


> If you're using the API test, it measures total ammonia, both toxic ammonia (NH3) and non-toxic ammonium (NH4+), unfortunately.


And Nitrite cycles quickly in a well established tank. You might miss any NO2 spikes if testing every 48 hours, but no Nitrite is a good thing. IME, 1 mL of this Liquid Grow will start your cycle right up. Worked for me! The picture is of Echinodorus parviflorus 'tropica' emersed for 7 months. Not bad. Some algae and yellowing.


----------



## Johnriggs

On those Apo bulbs, I don't worry about them unless (A) they become moldy or (B) I take them out now and then and sniff them, and they smell bad. In either event I throw them away and try again. 

John R


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, I couldn't find the packaging at home, but here is the walmart link to the lily and I just noticed the mixed/poor reviews of it... (sigh) ... 
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10403220

Tug, I like the duettos so far (it's only been a couple of days, but both the 50 on my 12 g eclipse and the 100 on my 20 g - are doing well.) Yes, the current is pretty low - I moved the valve to it's highest opening, and it still doesn't give a lot of water movement - but the fish are happy, and nothing (knock on wood) - is dying...

I was considering to remove the carbon but was wondering if I should yet. The tank isn't exactly scentless. When I go to feed the fish, it does have a pond smell to it. So if I remove the carbon wont I risk that getting worse?

I am in a bit of a quandary and am wondering what my next step should be... I am researching fish these days and trying to decide what breeds are compatible, and how to fix a problem that I'm trying to work through.

As you all know - I have the planted tank and there are 5 betta girls, 3 cories, and a golden snail.

Well - My other 12 gal. is cycling (not natural planted) - and has a small gold gourami, and I had bought some threadfin rainbows. - The store worker scooped out the wrong fish and sold me one Yellow Rainbow (I think? Girl?) - who chases the threadfins around and so my gourami Rainbow tank is not as peaceful as it should be - and, then I found a dead threadfin girl last night when I was doing a partial water change whos fins where nipped completely off - All the other fish in the tank don't seem to have any fin problems - so I suppose it could have been done post mortem - But after feeding them this morning, she was chasing the last remaining threadfin girl - and while I thought that all rainbow types would get along - I just dont know enough about fish - and, I can't seem to find anything online that says not to mix various Rainbow species...

Could the Yellow be aggressive because she's alone in her/his species? Should I be considering to get a few more yellows and hope the aggression will go away with their addition? Now that my threadfin population is down to 2 males, 1 female - I know I need to add a few more females so that the solo one isn't stressed out (although both males are still much younger/smaller than the female) and that may mean I'll have time to sort this out, I hope.

So, I attempted moving the solo yellow out of the tank and thought to acclimate it to the betta tank, but I could feel the fear pouring out of the cup when it was put at the top of the 20 g... with the bettas all swarming to see what was inside the cup, and then beginning to act really territorial with each other, Which has not happened since the Cories were introduced to that tank... So, I couldn't put the yellow in. - I finally decided to give her a temporary spot in the almost empty 5 gal. (it's holding 2 remaining cardinal tetras in quarantine - 3 had died the first weekend I bought them.)

I can tell the yellow is not happy in that confined space, but at least she's not attacking anyone...

If anyone has the scoop on the threadfin/Yellow (Tebera) Rainbows mixing - and how schools of them work (same tank or not) - I'd love to know. I'm pretty frustrated by not seeing what should be peaceful fish not getting along.

Tug - thanks for the birthday wishes. I'm positively ancient! But, I still am trying to hide it... if pulling out grey hairs does that. :shock: I'm 41.

It really is a shame I couldn't have put the Rainbow or Rainbows in with the Bettas...

I already feel the need for starting a new planted tank project - and I haven't even finished this first one... My next tank - will have to be at least 40 gal to take in all these rainbows that won't get along with each other (as well as to get my pretty Gourami more swim space).


----------



## tug

RoseyD said:


> Tug, I like the duettos so far...


I think the pump on both duettos is the same size. Its just that the 100 has more room for filter media and a larger blue sponge. Get the ehfilav filter media, use the carbon until then. But, save the cartridge for a DIY fix later on. If/when I'm still happy with what I've done in 2 weeks I'll try and post the changes I made. It looks good so far. :thumbsup:



RoseyD said:


> I was considering to remove the carbon but was wondering if I should yet. The tank isn't exactly scentless. When I go to feed the fish, it does have a pond smell to it. So if I remove the carbon wont I risk that getting worse?


I hope the smell isn't BGA but if it is... "50% water change and dose nitrates to keep them from dropping too low. Make sure your substrate and filter doesn't become too clogged up with mulm and make sure you have good water circulation around the whole tank."



RoseyD said:


> I am in a bit of a quandary and am wondering what my next step should be... I am researching fish these days and trying to decide what breeds are compatible, and how to fix a problem that I'm trying to work through.


 Get more plants and improve your water flow.


----------



## tug

I think this is in the Aponogeton Family. My LFS said it was Aponogeton _undulatus,_ but I'm note so sure their right.


----------



## tug

Sword plants and an Angle.


----------



## RoseyD

I see a lot of people writing BGA - and I don't know what it is... my tank with the light on, seems clear except at the bottom where the decay from the plants is resting... I still need to siphon that up and was hoping to do that tonight. With the lights off, well the tank looks dark... can see the shadows of my plants and fish but hey - what do you expect from looking through that much water in the dark? 

what does BGA (which I'm guessing is algae) look like?


----------



## Tex Gal

Yellow rainbows will get way to big to be kept with the threadfins. Threadfins are peaceful and stay pretty small. With the long fins you need to be careful what you put with them. They do great with the pygmy rasboras. They also have very tiny mouths so need tiny pieces of food. 

If I were you I'd take the yellow rainbow back to the LFS and tell them they sold it to you for a thread fin and you'd like it exchanged. I would only keep 5 or 6 yellow rainbow in a 29g with a clean up crew. I had some red rainbows in my 125 and about 2 inches and they still weren't fully grown.


----------



## tug

:scared:Blue Green Algae, follow this link to find out more on BGA and the link in the quote bellow.


tug said:


> I hope the smell isn't BGA but if it is... "50% water change and dose nitrates to keep them from dropping too low. Make sure your substrate and filter doesn't become too clogged up with mulm and make sure you have good water circulation around the whole tank."


:attention A fish tank shouldn't have a strong smell.


----------



## RoseyD

tug. I changed 50 percent as you suggested and syphoned off as much of the dead stuff from the bottom as possible with only 10 g
allons to do it with. the resulting removed water stank and was heavy with green filth. 

I added a second duetto 100 filter to the tank. the water appears cleaner now. but with the lights off ... cloudy. 

does all algae stink? or only bga? IN Looking more closely at the plants I found some hairy stuff on the floating plants. not a lot but enough to make me want to fix it. 

should I shop for that nitrate stuff?


----------



## tug

If you only have plants in your tank then take out as much water as you want.


RoseyD said:


> tug. I changed 50 percent as you suggested and syphoned off as much of the dead stuff from the bottom as possible with only 10 g
> allons to do it with.


Water circulation should be your first concern. Eheim makes the ECCO External Canister Filter 2232 that has a flow rate closer to 100 gph if you add a small spray bar.

:-kThis may fall outside NPT law, but welcome to the dark side. The Liquid Grow has copper in it. Read the links bellow on copper if you have any concerns.
Flourish Nitrogen is often used to increase nitrate, but try the Liquid Grow. IME it did not harm fish or shrimp at proper levels in a well oxygenated tank. If fish/snail are not in the same water then use it. I would love to see it work for you the way it did for me. Check the hydroponic section of a good nursery. After a few doses and water changes use the rest to feed your house plants. If you think the added nitrates help then begin using the flourish products.

This is what you are adding to the water with Liquid Grow.
Add 1/4 tsp. to 20 gal. - 50% WC after a week. 
Copper knocked back the algae big time.
Cu, (0.09 ppm).
NO2, (0.5 ppm the next day and 0.0 ppm after 48 hours).
NO3, (10 - 15 ppm).
PO4, (5.0 ppm).


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, I am considering the idea of adding the flourish but not the copper. And, I'd prefer to not add the flourish too - there has to be a way to combat algae without adding chemicals. That's the whole reason I was interested to do a "NATURAL" planted tank. the word natural means more than living to me - it means healthy too, and a chemical free as possible. 

I don't want my fish and my apple (god bless her, my snail found a patch of spotted algae on one glass and was licking at it last night when I was going off to bed) 

I now have 2 duettos 100s on the tank, and even with this, my bettas were acting very frustrated this morning because the filters keep pushing the floating plant (which is becoming a bit overgrown now - and I need to think clipping it back) - into their swim and feed zone. If these two filters don't do the job - yes, I will happily consider adding a different filter - but I do worry about my bettas not reacting well to 'too much' top flow. 

But yes, I seem to be developing an algae issue - and probably more than one - if those spots on the glass, and bits of green hair I saw on the stem of one of my floaters... and the potential that I have BGA - yes, it's possible that's what I was syphoning up ... the waste buckets smelled bad enough... 

Will increasing my invertibrate load help combat any of this? I admit that I'm glad my Apple has found something to eat - but I don't want to be overwhelmed with so much algae that my tank will become irrepairable. 

My tank is only 10 days old - should I already be considering to shut the lights off for a few days to combat these beginning issues?


----------



## Johnriggs

tug said:


> I think this is in the Aponogeton Family. My LFS said it was Aponogeton _undulatus,_ but I'm note so sure their right.


That's exactly what one of my "scary bulbs" from Walmart  grew into; it's one of my favorite plants. It is indeed an Aponogeton, not sure what variety because I think many of them are hybrids and I can't tell the leaf shape from the pure species from the pictures. You can fertilize those flowers by running a Q-tip along the flower, supposedly.

Mine grew as follows: It was a bulb with small "antennae;" I left for a five day vacation and when I returned, it looked like your picture, with floating oar-shaped leaves all over the place.

I think many of the negative reviews for these bulbs came from people who either didn't wait long enough for the bulbs to sprout or who didn't have nourishing water columns. I have a friend who uses RO water in his tank who tells me he has had no luck either with these bulbs or plants in general. Surprised his fish live.

John R


----------



## RoseyD

I'm thinking that my circulation problem may be solved with some sort of powerhead. In chatting with a friend, I just discovered that they're different than filters... So, I'm researching now what one would do well with my fish, live plants, and only 20Ga. 

My bulbs are still not showing growth, The lilies are floating, and the apono... are really lucky that they didn't get 'vacuumed' up and flushed when I syphoned last night. I'm going to do another 50% water change tonight, to try to remove whatever residual 'mess' that didn't get picked up last night. 

If the rain stops by the time I'm leaving work - I'll head over to skiptons to look into picking up the Flourish product. I need to find some reading materials to better understand this 'adding' of nitrates. Since I thought that nitrates were a bad thing... (yes, I have a LOT of learning to do.) 

If they have a reasonably priced powerhead, I may pick up one of those too, which would allow me to remove the second Duetto from the tank, and save my bettas some top space and less fighting with the floating plants to use it.


----------



## tug

> Will increasing my invertibrate load help combat any of this? I admit that I'm glad my Apple has found something to eat - but I don't want to be overwhelmed with so much algae that my tank will become irrepairable.


Please read some of the links I've been adding for your reading pleasure. No, nothing I know of eats BGA.:toimonst:



> My tank is only 10 days old - should I already be considering to shut the lights off for a few days to combat these beginning issues?


I never had to do a complete black out. Try reducing the amount of light first and when you absolutely can't find another way (less light, water flow, water changes) add some Flourish Nitrogen.



Philosophos said:


> I just can't see how 12 hours with high lighting would work, and have typically seen evidence to the contrary. Things get even worse if there's a lack of CO2. Plants have their limits....


*High light, low nutrient levels and poor water flow will only exacerbate plant health and algae problems.*



Philosophos said:


> Contact your water company for an in-depth report, specifying the chemicals you're concerned about...


 Have you done this yet?


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, I'm going back and looking at the links, some of which I didn't realize they were links... 

I did not contact my city for a water chem. analysis - rather I went online and ordered all the API test kits that were listed under the fish section that were listed as being freshwater tests. 

I'm looking forward to my shopping trip back to skiptons. I'm considering a maxi-jet powerhead pump... Dr. Fosters advertises that the 400 model has a 106 gph rate. yes, I'll pick up the flourish nitro too. ... and maybe a bottle of excel. 

And tonight, I'm removing the carbon from the duettos and replacing them with something 'non-carbon' based. 

If I didn't have to come back to work after my shopping trip ... I'm considering buying a few amanos to help my li'l Apple in her battle... 

yes - I'll read your links...


----------



## RoseyD

WHOOH! I've got a lot of work to do on the tank tonight. But, it's all going in the right direction. I spoke with one of the staff at Skiptons, showed her pictures of the tank and described what was happening to it. 

She talked me into buying a different powerhead because it would give better control of the flow, and connected to the tank better. She told me to NOT buy nitrates or excel - that I was overfeeding my fish - and I need to stop doing that! - I should also stop doing so many water changes and figure out what nutrients my tank is really lacking (once I stop overfeeding). She looked at the pictures of the tank, and told me why some of my plants had melted (needed CO2 injection) - and that I need to separate my plants more. The stem plants were placed way too close together, which cuts out light for the bottom leaves, causing decay - So I need to do lots of repair on those - and separate each stem to an inch apart. PLUS - I need to completely redo the dwarf grass - take it out of the tank pull them apart (yes, hard task) - and plant them 1/2 inch apart every 4 or 5 strands. If I don't, the middle parts of the dwarf grass will start to decay, and soon. 

She did recommend a flourish complete type product that will give trace nutrients of a wide variety - so that I can treat my tank - and told me to take plenty of pictures as the tank progresses so that depending on how the plants respond to the product - She'll be able to say what's really missing from my tank's chemistry. 

- And, that I can't worry about the algae until all this first stuff is done - but it won't hurt the fish - so don't try to fix it ... and that I should bring in a sample of my water and the reason's why their testing (free) may be better than my own using the API test packs

So, that was a really productive lunch break. Starving now - but, I can survive on instant oatmeal. I'm psyched to start working on my tank again, tonight...


----------



## Johnriggs

Posted pics of my tiny micro tanks here:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/64072-per-request-my-5-gal-hex.html

The big plants in the middle are "Walmart Bulbs, aka Apos.

John R


----------



## RoseyD

I re-moved all the dead stuff that was wilted in my tank, and shifted everything around last night - the apo bulbs are not showing any 'change' yet, nor are the lily bulbs. The lily bulbs are floating and now covered in brown fuzz (most likely algae and not 'bulb' related decay)

I took out both carbon filters in the duettos and replaced with matrix. And, I trimmed back some of the chaos that my floating plant had become. 

Finally, I added the power head, and it's pointed mid tank so that the current doesn't destroy my freshly planted bottom... but the current is quite something else - and the bettas last night were playing in it - trying to swim through it, and not able to... going up and over it, no problem - but, they can't swim through it... 

But they kept trying ... a few of them seemed to be trying to race through it ... Part of me laughed seeing them ... but I'm wondering if the current is torturing them too... When it's no longer play - I'm sure they'll be frustrated by that part of the tank where everything is difficult 'going'... 

but then again - maybe it's giving them something to do? 

The cories just Zip through it, happy as ever. But they are tiny things, and don't have big tails to slow them down. 

So, I'm debating on whether I should have the power head running all the time? Or should it be on a cycle similar to the lights? 6 hours on, 2 hours off, 6 hours on, 10 hours off. Advice welcome.  

The tank was nasty last night, after all the shifting, but it's pretty clear this morning. I definitely have algae problems surfacing - I noticed that the spots of green that were on the tank a night before - was now completely covering a 6" x 10" portion of glass last night. 

I added the flourish, and will let the tank settle some more - and take some pictures... Once I know that the tank is going well, I'll have a lot of effort to get rid of the growing algae... although, I'm hoping that the increased circulation and less feeding will help with that.


----------



## tug

RoseyD said:


> Ok, there has to be a way to combat algae without adding chemicals. That's the whole reason I was interested to do a "NATURAL" planted tank.


It takes some time, but you will find a way to a clean and healthy fish tank. Its apparent that you have taken to the idea and I'm sure given some time it will work out. Thats why it would be nice of you to use the name of products you are trying and what you feel they accomplish.

I am new to aquatic plants and life in a fish bowl, but I have been an avid gardener for over 30 years. I know EI methods are working for me and they continue to (eight months now). We all want/need a healthy planted tank. You should know you are heading down that EI road when you start to dose X into your fish tank. That does not make it a non-NPT. All of the electrical cords coming off of the thing is what makes it a non-NPT. As soon as you decide to have 3.5 WPG sitting above your tank you are straying from the hole idea of a NPT. Look at the number of electrical cords running out of your tank and tell me you have reached your goal of el natural. I started my first tank this January, 2009. Meaning, I've had to learn some science, as you will too. I need confess a certain shoot first and ask questions later mentality. Thats science, try something and find out why it works.

Ultimately balance will save my tank from failing; not tearing things apart and building them again. I might share or affirm information hoping to bring balance and life in a cube filled with water. So I try to share what I know. Not, tell you what to do or even hope to.

:focus:Why does the NPT recommend lower light then 3.5 wpg? I have a 24 Watt T5HO and at that mid level range of light (still much less then what Rosy has been running with) I feed the plants and hope the CO2 will be adequate. The next step for me (If I can't find another way) is adding CO2. It sounds like this is also being recommended by Rose's LFS as well. What that would tell me is that they know 65 Watts is a lot of light.


----------



## RoseyD

Tug, I agree - The first 5 days that the tank was set up - I didn't have a filter on there. I had bought an emperor 280 and refused to put it on, once I knew what amount of current it would be putting in my tank ... 

I wanted circulation though, and thought that the Duettos would do enough for the tank until it was cycled and populated. 

Well, where did that lead me - smelly water could have come from just overfeeding - I'm new to fish and wanted them all to have a well-rounded meal - so I would give a little of this, and a little of that, and a little of that ... making huge meals - the fish didn't complain but the ammonia levels weren't down at zero 

Anyways, to combat all this, I have now 2 duettos and a powerhead (3 cords), a heater (1 more cord), and the lights (2 cords?) - no - it doesn't sound like a NPT. 

Would my route have been any simpler if I'd just used the emperor 280? 

Yes, the LFS was suggesting the eventual use of CO2, that she understands what I'm attempting but that the CO2 tanks may end up being a worthwhile step further down the road. 

- I would like to have a healthy fishtank and have it be very easy, and not crazy with all these details. I'd like fish that I can feed, and top off the water... maybe once in a while do a partial water change - but, not every other day... and that I can sit back and watch them and remove stress. The idea of fish tanks is to be a stress reliever... Doesn't everyone need one of those?


----------



## RoseyD

oh... since you mentioned wanting brands ... this is the powerhead/pump she'd suggested:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1908Y5WPFZ5CDV09SPHG


----------



## tug

#-o Looks just like the one I have in a 10 gal. planted tank I'm trying.
The reason I mention the Eheim ECCO External Canister Filter 2232;
⨀	106 gal/hr (75% flow rate after adding an inline heater and a spray bar) ≈ 80 GPH
I added a spray bar and the flow rate works well with a 20 gallon tank. Cycles the tank 4 - 5 times an hour.​ the water flow is close to what you want and it provides you with a larger biological filter. It also allows me to use a Hydor InLine Aquarium Heater, 200W eliminating one more thing I have to look at. I was more interested in the Flourish product and your experience. It looks like the LFS in your area knows what there doing. We all can benefit from that.


----------



## RoseyD

Ah, ok... here's a link for the plant supplement that they recommended.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4652

with a 100 wt. stealth heater

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3743+3852&pcatid=3852

I may at some point switch to a different filter arrangement - I have to admit that I'm tired of looking at them, and their media - when I ordered the duettos - I ordered enough foam and carbon to last six months - because I hate ordering online, and having to pay huge shipping costs - but this one place offered a seeming 'bargain' - a deal of $150 orders = free shipping... So now one week later - I'm not using carbon - and I will have duetto media for a very long time to come... (probably a whole lot longer than a year...)

Anyway - yes I saw the Ecco recommendation and I'm glad you gave it - but, I hope you don't take my slowness to jump into ordering another filter as anything beyond being fatigued by too much filter 'stuff' already in my life - working well or not.

All this, and I still have not bought replacement filters for my 5 gal. eclipse... go figure.


----------



## tug

RoseyD said:


> Ok, I am considering the idea of adding the flourish but not the copper.


You may have high levels of copper (.003-0.44 ppm) in your tap water anyway. While the effects of copper on algae and inverts. are well known, there is some debate as to what levels are lethal (Water Parameters.) I think your fish will be fine but no one wants to add copper at the risk of killing off the ecosystem they work so hard to raise. Some experiments aren't worth the risk. Sorry that I use you for a sounding board to view some of my ideas. Thank goodness you question my advice. I am thinking of adding the flourish product you mention and reducing the level of nitrate. Ultimately I would like it to stay around 10 ppm. While levels as high as 20 ppm have not harmed anything it does seam excessive.

MWRA's Drinking Water Test Results for 2008


----------



## RoseyD

tug no need for apologies. the reason for forums is to talk through ideas and discussion ... basically 'sounding board' fits into that fairly well.


----------



## Johnriggs

I use a water conditioner that (supposedly) detoxes metals. Some do not, apparently. Would not risk copper at any measurable level, agreed.

J


----------



## tug

I understand. There is a lot of fear mongering about caring for RCS, but I find them to be extremely hardy and prolific. What about food for shrimp with added Copper for blood formation? What is that about? Should we feed our shrimp food that has Copper in it?

Chemical Toxicity Studies on Aquatic Organisms


----------



## tug

I did find this post.


icumailman said:


> I'd be careful as a lot of the HBH food has copper in it and I know that some users have reported problems with their shrimps dying off for no apparent reason. Having said that--I will tell you that I use the HBH Krill pellets and the Spirulina pellets with no problems in all of my tanks. A small **very small** amount of copper is necessary for some inverts including shrimp. Hikari has some very good products for shrimp and dwarf crays (yes, some dwarf crays can make an excellent addition to a planted tank! ) The Crab Cuisine and Micro Wafers are staples for me and I use them all the time. When Hikari came out with the Shrimp Cuisine I was a bit concerned as copper is listed in their ingredients. I contacted Hikari and was told that shrimp/inverts need a bit of it to survive and it has to do with moulting health. I thought that was 'bologna' so I did some of my own research here on the web and found that it seems to be true. I have used the Shrimp Cuisine now for a while with no ill effects to my shrimps (I keep red cherry shrimps, Dark green shrimps, Amanos, glass shrimp and Bamboo shrimps). I have also used the Shirikira food and Mosura shrimp foods and my shrimps and dwarf crays go nuts over both kinds of food--those are a hands down favorite! Tetra crisps are also a good source of food for my inverts as are Ken's meat and Spirulina tablets. My Amano's swoop down from the plants to grab a Ken's wafer and try to run away with them! It is pretty funny to watch that!!


----------



## RoseyD

We're supposed to feed the shrimp? I thought they ate the algae...

I was just considering that I should add shrimp to my planted tank because I'm getting quite a bit of algae now, My front glass, seen from the side, is green (it's not noticable from the front yet.) The one plate that's closest to the heater, is noticably growing green from every angle. I've seen the apple snail traverse the entire tank, but I don't think she's doing enough ... 

I need to take some more pictures, and bring that water sample down to the LFS and see what recommendation that the staff will give me next. I know that in the replanting I did - I have a lot of vacant 'land' - so, big chance is that she'll say put in some more plants. 

And for all the hair that seems to be growing on my floater ... I wonder if I will have to toss the whole plant or if it's salvageable... 

So, we feed shrimp, eh?


----------



## tug

Red Cherry Shrimp or RCS, thrive in planted aquariums and are some of the easiest shrimp to keep and breed in the aquarium. Juveniles should be purchased, as they adapt better to new aquarium conditions,

Shrimp are omnivorous and will eat anything that's edible. Kept primarily as detritus and/or algae consumers dwarf shrimp can be fed on a diet of fish food or old, brown tree leaf litter that has been conditioned by bacteria and fungi in the tank.

Requirements for the care of shrimp are very similar. Low dissolved metals (have the LFS test for copper levels) and ammonium/nitrite, moderate pH and warm temperatures (72 - 78F) should be the norm with any of the different varieties.

As far as copper and other nutrients, they get this from their food. Most invertebrae use hemocyanine to transport oxygen. Unlike Hemoglobin, it is formed by copper instead of iron. Iodine facilitates calcium uptake and successful molting for crustaceans. *Hikari* has a new shrimp food that I'm considering, but for six months now they have been breeding while eating the crud/algae as well as the leftover fish food and algae wafers. They seam to be fine.


----------



## RoseyD

Well, I am going back to Skiptons tonight with my water sample. Last night I did my own testing on the water but filled the sample bottle this morning, right before feeding.

Last night, I added a second dose of the flourish comprehensive - trying to follow the directions to dose one to twice a week - the first dose was on Thursday night.

I waited two hours before doing my testing - here are the results of how the water has changed since the tank was first filled on July 18th:

Initial readings - Tap water added to tank on July 18th: 
PH= 8.0, Ammonia 0, Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0 GH/KH= 4 drops (71.6 - SOFT)

Last night: 
PH=7.2, Ammonia = 1, Nitrite= 2, Nitrate = 10

I was happy to see the nitrates since my tank is cycling... However, I should have both Nitrite and Ammonia at 0 - so those other numbers are not great... Nitrates are fine as long as they're under 20.

I've reduced feeding the fish, (since I have that tendancy to overfeed - newby fish person that I am) and am only feeding them once a day now. they're all fat, and could stand being on a restricted diet.

I took pictures last night - and the algae is now out of control. I hope they'll say I can get some shrimp or something to start working on this .... because I fully expect that tonight I'll arrive home and my tank will be completely green. Yes, it's growing that FAST.

Doing it on my own - I would have done a 50% water change last night - but, the fish seem healthy and I want to have an accurate water test to compare the LFS results to what I get from my API tests - So, I decided to hold off until I hear what they say.

I'm going to post pictures so you can see how the tank looks now - 3 weeks in - after the replant last Thursday, and the abundant algae that's forming everywhere - I think I have at least 3 different types going on...

I'm hoping that the LFS will have some plant recommendations tonight so that I can Fight some of that 'excess' nutrients that's keeping all that Algae so healthy ... I have a feeling they won't recommend my getting any shrimp until that ammonia/nitrite # comes down further...

Various angles of the tank:


----------



## RoseyD

So - that's the tank in all it's green glory... I'm looking forward to hearing what recommendations the LFS will have on it, and see how it will compare to what I would do using forum feedback.


----------



## tug

Sounds good.


RoseyD said:


> I was happy to see the nitrates since my tank is cycling...
> *(OR something, did a fish die?) where did all those nitrates come from?*
> However, I should have both Nitrite and Ammonia at 0 - *YES,* so those other numbers are not great... *Nitrates are fine as long as they're under 20, IMLE.*
> 
> I've reduced feeding the fish, *Something I will always say first, when talking to any new-bee* (since I have that tendency to overfeed - newby fish person that I am) and am only feeding them once a day now. they're all fat, and could stand being on a restricted diet.
> 
> Doing it on my own - I would have done a 50% water change last night -
> *I really, really did not want to sound like a big advacite for frequent water changes. Any smell could just be bacteria and frequent water changes often add to an algae problem. Water changes seam more about nitrate levels.*
> but, the fish seem healthy and I want to have an accurate water test to compare the LFS results to what I get from my API tests - So, I decided to hold off until I hear what they say.
> *
> Bring several water samples. Why not, it's free right?*
> 
> I'm hoping that the LFS will have some plant recommendations tonight so that I can Fight some of that 'excess' nutrients that's keeping all that Algae so healthy ... I have a feeling they won't recommend my getting any shrimp *(the younger shrimp, the more likely they are to live and breed, but not)* until that ammonia/nitrite # comes down further...


----------



## RoseyD

I only brought about 8 oz. of water from the 20g. tank. 

All the fish are alive. The nitrate spike could be coming from the addition of the flourish comprehensive. I was not expecting to see nitrites or nitrates - since there's so much algae growing - I expect that I need a lot more plants to balance everything out. 

Wish there wasn't so much algae...


----------



## RoseyD

Well, that whole thing got my hopes raised higher than they should be. The LFS sales person who I'd spoken with that first time, wasn't there, and so I spoke with the man working the floor - He tested my water using test strips - that I already have at home - and haven't really been using, since I have the API liquid test versions - which I had the assumption were more accurate... 

So, by the morning water sample - he told me that my ammonia had lowered to .5. And my nitrites/nitrates were showing some spiking - then told me - NO MORE water changes... the idea of doing a fish- cycle is that you buy hardy fish and hope they survive it... 

Anyway - I'm not too worried about .5 or even 1 for ammonia - I know my fish can handle that - but I do worry about my non-planted tanks who were testing at 2 on Sunday for my last water change... still with no nitrates showing... 

I feel bad if it gets to the point where the ammonia increases so much that their health is at risk... the poor dears... 

So - last night, he looked at my pictures, and then we talked about the light bulb and he said the same as most of you all here - that the 420 arcinic is not good for fresh water and that's really what's causing all my algae worries. Sure, I can add more plants, but the better thing to do would be to change the lightbulb to a 10K/6.5k blended bulb of the same wattage - and perhaps cut back on my light cycle to only an 8 hour timeframe at least until the cycle completes itself. 

It's a lot to think about... I really do like the 12 hour light frame - broken in two because I have the powerhead set to the same time-frame to give me that 12 hour lower circulation - mixed with 12 hours of betta friendly - peaceful tank. 

My next paycheck will have a portion going to the new lightbulb - to test how that change of Kelvin type will improve the algae situation - but, the rest will remain as is. 

I added 5 more plants to my tank last night. 4 vals and a martini? sword... I could swear that's what he called it... and he told me that my floater was so covered in that hairy algae that I should cut some of it back and pull ithe algae out that was clumping... and that I should also be concerned that the roots of that particular plant have a habit of strangling out the other plants in the tank - so keep things trimmed ... And, yes, that plant could be so overgrown that it's blocking valuable light from reaching the others on the tank bottom. Gee Whiz, that plant grows fast! 

So I removed half of the floater last night too - which gave my bettas a lot more swim room at the top. And I noticed this morning that my li'lest betta, Baby was trying to dominate the others for a first time - she's always been the one to hide, or take the lower position - but not today - goodness, she was chasing Ruby and Topaz both, and I was amazed that fish bigger than her - would let her dominate... I wonder if that'll turn into a long term position change, or if she'll be knocked down a notch ...


----------



## tug

My favorite fish when doing a "fish-cycle" is the feeder guppy. Hardy, cheap and it eats just about anything. 

I'm not sure if it's the actinic light causing algae. I would love to hear the logic behind that statement. The amount of light, (duration/wpg) is the issue. One 65 watt 10K daylight bulb should be enough light to grow your plants. I can't remember, did you say the 10K can be turned on/off separately from the actinic? If you run two 65 watt 10K daylight bulbs at the same time your asking for algae.


----------



## RoseyD

How do those satellite dual bulbs work? does the 65w mean - for each 'side' of the looped bulb? 

Or is it shared by the two versions? 

My tank doesn't seem 'bright' ... I've showed a zillion pictures of how dark it looks and I am taking pictures set to ISO 800... so it can't be "THAT bright" ... as to be double 65'ers...

UGH, what so what should I do? replace the bulb? or find a lower wattage light fixture? Or drastically reduce my 'light' timing? 

One bulb - but two cords that didn't seem to work out of sync ... at least not that I could figure out how to do it. And the 'unit' came with zero directions - they (the manufacturer) probably think it's all easy-peasy ...


----------



## Philosophos

Drop your lighting levels down. It's not the wavelength... 50/50 actinic spectrum, as I mentioned and illustrated before with PAR graphs, has a negligable variance from other bulbs. The image no longer seems to display on page one, but go ahead and look up the PAR graph (might be on the box) for your bulb and compare. The issue is that you purely have too much light and unbalanced nutrients; your CO2 levels aren't high enough, and you don't have a clearly defined limiting nutrient below that. 

Diana's 3wpg tanks are either running inefficient light, or using something along the lines of phosphate or other nutrient limitation. PO4 limitation is something Takashi Amano used to do, and it resulted in relatively clean tanks with some GSA issues. If you don't know which nutrient you're going to limit with to reduce algae, you have no defined target to aim at. Trying to limit the column as a whole while maintaining rich substrate could be very frustrating given that tap and fish food will provide nutrients of its own that can support algae growth when not in balance.

Ammonia hasn't been helping your case either; it does a wonderful job of causing algae blooms.

Besides all of this, the dark area of your tank is showing nutrient deficiencies and it looks lower light. If you've got low light and nutrient deficiencies, clearly the plants aren't getting enough. You'll need to add something one way or another so that these plants stop starving.

I'm in the process of setting up a high tech tank with high difficulty plants. I will be aiming for lower light levels than you're providing with that bulb, and keeping plants that are allegedly high light. Truth be told, they aren't; they've been shown to thrive in low light, but have difficult CO2 requirements. I'm doing this to create slower growth, as well as growth forms that I prefer to see.

Save your electric bill, drop the lighting, feed the plants what they need instead.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

So, not the wavelength - but it is the lighting... does this mean I should cut down the cycle time? say to 10 hours instead of 12? Or should I change the light fixture?


----------



## RoseyD

Oh, I tested the tank last night and!!! 

ammonia is finally at 0.

Nitrites were 5 (EEK!)
and Nitrates - 40 (double EEK!)


----------



## Philosophos

I run a 12 hour day with a 2 hour break, total 10 hours of light. I NEED Co2 to keep up with it. You've shaded your plants some by floating, which can work, but it's kind of a waste of electricity. You could pull the hornwort or what ever it is you have floating, put on a lower wattage bulb, and have a much happier tank. Toss in some low level ferts (food is not a completely balanced source of nutrients, but you can try if you like) and you'd have a sustainable tank.

Seachem's equilibrium at 1/2mg per gal of column dosed weekly (spread throughout the week) plus some flourish dosed as per instructions under around 1.5wpg of lighting, without the floating plants, would keep a sustainable tank. I mix my own equivalent of this dosing with many of the same compounds and to be honest, the tanks are an afterthought for maintenance. They don't even get dosing so reliable as I've listed. 

Is it NPT? Nope. Sure works though. The only problems that these tanks have are with high CO2 demand plants, because obviously there's no CO2 injection. Don't go out buying HC or the like with this setup. This is the same issue you'd have with a non-CO2 NPT tank anyhow.

NO3 looks ugly; I'd ignore the guy in the fish store and change some water, or find some other way to take care of the issue. I dose my tanks to the level of NO4 you're concerned about right now, but NO4 from pure ferts isn't too bad; NO4 from natural causes has other compounds that correlate with it to be concerned about possibly. I can't see the harm in a 50% water change.

All of this should get you on a manageable track, with possibly some fine adjustments to come.

-Philosophos

*edit* at 1.5wpg you may still end up wanting a little excel or DIY CO2, this would be part of the fine tuning.


----------



## RoseyD

I can't pull the floater - I never can remember the name of it - I think of "fairy..." but that's not quite it... 

The tank holds a beta sorority and that floater is what keeps one or other of the girls from ever being picked on - they can always easily go into hiding, while keeping a place to breathe near the top. 

I trimmed back about 50% of the floater a few days ago - to try to lighten up things a little - but I'll never be floater free. 

I'll try to cut the 'light on' time - instead of the 6 on, 2 off, 6 on - ... maybe to 5 on, 5 off, 5 on - and see how that larger 'break' in the middle will affect matters.


----------



## Philosophos

Look into the ferts, those floating plants evenly distributed might be enough to keep the light down without playing with the photo period too much. You're not dosing anything, and I'm sure your substrate isn't providing enough (for what reason I'm not sure, I tend towards man made substrates), so something needs to go in to the column too.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I am currently adding flourish comprehensive for nutrients - 1/3rd cap, twice a week, but that only started a week ago - 3rd dose is tonight. 

Nothing's dying anymore, at least. what melted, has finished melting - and I've since added a couple of vals and a sword - to help eat up what stray nutrients that are feeding all that algae... but I probably need a whole lot more plants... 

I'm getting a new tank on Sunday, and intend to plant that one too - so there's going to be more plant shopping in the near future.


----------



## Philosophos

Flourish works pretty well for trace. It's probably the easiest to get your hands on as a start, it's not as expensive as TNP/TMG, and it's easier to work with than CSM+B.

Unfortunately flourish won't provide any substantial level of NPK, Ca or Mg. Mg may happen through your tap (get a water quality report), Ca from tap is usually as CaCO3 which isn't very bioavailable, N is building up in your tank just fine for now, P may happen from food and tap, but K is something you're going to run in to deficiencies of fairly quick without adding. You'll know you've got K+ issues about the time your plants start developing pinholes in their leafs. All of these may or may not go deficient if your plant growth increases. Either way, a 50% water change every one or two weeks should keep the nutrients from accumulating too much.

How you customize your dosing to manage these macros is the issue. Personally I'd dose for all of them, which is why I mentioned equilibrium (no mixing, has good ratios) and see what happens. If it works, great, if not there may be some customizing.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I'll check the leaves closer tonight while I'm doing the ammonia/N - tests... 

There is definitely some growth occuring within the tank - A lot on the floater, and about an inch+ on the dwarf grass - and the others, varying - some of the plants are becoming pretty tall (almost touching with my clipped back floater) - and I don't remember them being that way when I initially put them in the tank. 

From all of this, It looks like I should delay purchasing the replacement bulb just yet - and try to assess better how the tank is reacting to the light input now that the floaters' been clipped. 

I hope the algae will dissapate but, there's sure to be a vast different between 'hope' vs 'reality'. 

hope doesn't build bridges.


----------



## Johnriggs

You know, my algae went away completely as soon as my floaters began to take off. Green water algae as well as those small spots on the glass. Maybe it's just a matter of time. In my case it began on about the third month.

John R


----------



## clearleaf

Yea, I was going to chime in with the same. If I recall you filled this around the middle of July, so we're only at about 4 weeks. If you *weren't* having algae issues in a soil-based (or any substrate, really) at this point I'd be amazed. Like I said very early in the thread, there is most likely going to be a hair-pulling outbreak of nastiness, but with the help of some snails/ottos/shrimp and most importantly patience, it should work itself out. There are biological processes that simply can't be rushed. A colony of 'x' bacteria will take 'y' days to double in size, and that can't really be changed (well, except in a lab, and even then with constraints), and it takes about 9 months for a human baby to be born, so I suggest putting away the ammonia tests for a couple days and let life happen. As long as the fish aren't freaking out, it won't hurt anything.


----------



## Philosophos

Of course you could just skip out on the entire ammonia problem with a little filter seeding and a higher plant biomass. Toss in some excel and frequent water changes, along with good dosing, and there shouldn't be any big problems.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I don't think there's an ammonia problem on this tank anymore - it's only those darn nitrites. - thank god it's friday - I'll do a 50%? water change tonight and relieve my mind from worrying about how my bettas/cories are seeming unscathed from all that toxin. 

I'm shopping for new plants tonight to put prepare for the sunday arrival of my 30 gal. I'm not sure what the light source is that's coming with the tank, the owner couldn't see any wattage info on the bulb. - but I'm hoping that swords and vals would be safe under most lighting scenarios until I can replace with a better light source. 

It doesn't make sense to lay substrate and fill the tank without putting in some plants, and sunday will be such a crazed day with getting the tank 'rushed' set up to try to save the bacteria coming within the tank/gravel/media... I hate rushing, but I hate having to 'start' a new cycle when there's media coming with this used tank that should keep the tank pretty 'stable'. 

3 tanks not cycled is bad enough - I'd like the 4th tank to be 'fish friendly'


----------



## Philosophos

I handle nitrites or ammonia pretty much the same way. With enough plants, some water changes, and filter seeding (very effective) there aren't any issues. The fine filter layer on canisters, or some filter floss in a HOB loaded with bacteria is all it takes.

There are some commercial cultures that speed things up a whole lot as well. Careful which ones you use, some outright don't work. Others will work very quickly; 3-4 days for complete culturing and nitrate conversion.

-Philosophos


----------



## tug

Guitarfish.org, posts some great information concerning algae with excellent pictures.


----------



## RoseyD

I'm not stressing over the algae, I haven't tested the water since doing a partial water change on Friday - when - the nitrates were already lowered to 10. - Cool how it had done that all by itself in the course of one day. - but the nitrites were still ridiculous, so the water change brought those down from 5 to 2. 

The fish all seem really happy. - I have started a new tank as of yesterday, and It comes with a low lighting system - but no marks on the bulbs to say how high/low is the wattage. - I may need to change the lights soon, to keep those plants alive ... 

I've been leaving the lights on the new tank for 12 hours + and am not worrying about anything... what will be will be... 

I know from experience of having the 20 gal though, that I need to shop for a power head tonight.  AND a lot more plants... the tank bottom is rather barren... I'll hopefully have pictures to post tomorrow.


----------



## RoseyD

Tugs, thanks for all those links you sent - I bought an eheim canister filter for the 30 gal - and it's AWESOME! It's so quiet, it's hard to say its on.  

It took a while to figure out how to set it up - but, it's a dream of a filter. Now I'm rethinking to get another one for the 20 gal. 

Those duettos are definitely doing something, but they are so quick to get filled with **** and clog up that I feel like I'm squeezing out the pre-foam every few days just to keep them flowing ... Maybe they weren't the right choice for a planted tank after all... 

I got 3 zebra otos last night to help fix the algae issue in the 20 gal. - What amazing little fish!


----------



## RoseyD

my goodness, my 20 gallon is 'sOOOO close' to being cycled - but still isn't... my water tests last night showed - Nitrates=5, nitrites = .25 ammonia = 0


----------



## RoseyD

And my 30 gallon, that came with used gravel, and that I had put one of the 20G. duetto's on - well, that has interesting readings - 3 days old - and it's reading - .25 ammonia, .5 nitrite, and 5 nitrate. 
this probably means the tank is cycling, but I'm guessing that the nitrate readings - despite that the ammonia is still there - is a sign that the tank is almost cycled??? 

Since I now have the eheim filter running on that tank, I am wondering how long I should keep the duetto there... a week more? a month? 

after seeing how well that eheim works, I really want to upgrade my 20 gallon to one of these. and heck with all the duetto media I bought...


----------



## mudboots

RoseyD,

I've been enjoying this thread and thought I'd let you know that my tanks were set up almost exactly the same time as yours and I have been seeing some of the same issues. Please keep posting any maintenence or additives as you coast and what the results are. My pea soup WAS clearing up on it's own until I recently dove back into the substrate to remove some unwanted large rooted swords from the 20 to put them into a more suitable home, plus I bought a LOT more plants for that more suitable home, some of which I'm having a hard time getting to stay planted (large bouyant stems with not much root growth yet). To compare strategies, I am doing absolutely nothing except once every two weeks I'll wipe film from the glass and add a little water from evap. I had considered doing water changes and up-ing the maintenece aspects, but reading through your thread I've decided to take the opportunity to use my tanks as a control. Obviously our water sources, lighting, et cetera are different, but it'll be interesting to see how things go. I've done a few water changes on each tank to date, but that was to address diseases that came in with some fish during the first two weeks of set-up. I also have a DIY CO2 going, but it is only short-term to slow down some Gambusias I want to remove and have a fun project with the kids. They call it the Nuclear Wine Reactor!

Thanks for all of the info so far on your journey to happy-tank-dom.


----------



## RoseyD

mudboots, it's all a test for me. And I'm enjoying the process getting to a 'nice' tank. 

I've played with the substrate so often it's like my hands are always in the water fixing something. My stem plants are always coming out of the substrate, and need pushing back in. 

I took out some plants for another tank, and then I replaced them... 

The 30 gallon is becoming more of a worry now, because I just realized that the reason why the tank seems so lively is because I've actually overstocked it. But is it considered overstocked 'now' when the 'big fish' are still in their baby states? Surely I'll have some fish die off and make space in the tank long before my gourami come to full size? 

I wish fish shopping wasn't so addictive...


----------



## RoseyD

Well, those 3 cute zebra otos are still alive and well. they're stuck to plant leaves, more than to my tank's glass though... The side glass is getting so thickly green, that it appears that the algae is growing algae now. 

Aren't otos supposed to be glass cleaners? 

I should be receiving a plant order any day now - It was shipped from NY on Monday from another forum member. I will use the plants on both the 20 and 30 gal tanks - and yes, disturb the substrate again... 

The 30 gallon is extremely low (and really yellow) light - despite the two hood flourescent lights on the one tank - I feel like the tank is being lit by nightlights in comparison to the 'glow' that comes out of my 20G. 

I need to order a new light fixture soon, so I can see some plant growth soon.


----------



## RoseyD

Ok, I feel broke now - I just ordered a light that will give me 96w on my 30 g. - it's a sunpak? T5 (4-24w bulbs) two are 10K, 2 arcenic - why they make so many light fixtures with this blend of bulbs, goodness only knows... Who said fish tanks would be a cheap hobby? - $220 for lights, and another $100 for getting another ecco canister filter, this time for my 20 gallon tank. 

The light will give me 3.2 wts per gallon which means that my plants will begin growing and probably the algae will too... I guess I'll have a second tank to switch my three otos into when they finish working on my 20 G... 

I'd consider buying more otos - but, they were pricey - $15 each ... I never thought I'd pay so much for a 1 inch fish - but, I'm tired of seeing so MUCH green ... and they are cute little things. 

Did I tell you that my plants are being delivered today?  Looks like I'm going to be drenched from shoulders down tonight, trying to get those plants into the substrate ... why did these tanks have to be so deep? I'm going to have to stand on a chair just to do the planting project - and I'm having visions of my falling forward into the tank and taking a bath with my fish. 

(yeah, I'm afraid of heights... can you tell?)


----------



## bratyboy2

why in the hell did you pay 15 a pop for them!!!!! they go for 3 bucks here!!!!! OMG U WERE JUST ROBBED!!! should of went with a BN but i bet those were thirty


----------



## clearleaf

I've never really seen zebra oto's, which leads me to believe they are somewhat rare, hence the price. If you can find a store that sells 'regular' oto's (o. affinis, o. vestitus are common - lord knows I can't tell them apart) they really should go for more like $3-4 like braty said. Certainly more affordable, especially for a notoriously fragile species.

You might need to help them along by manually removing the algae for a bit. I have had algae grow so fast that three oto's would start working on the top corner of the back of the tank, and by the time they had worked their way down 5" or 6" later that day they'd just go back to the top because the algae had already grown back in. Why clean the rest of the tank when they've got a constant source of food in one spot?


----------



## RoseyD

The prices online are showing at around $11 and up. 

I don't mind paying a few dollars more to get the fish direct - without worrying about the poor things having to be shipped to me and surviving that. 

Otos aren't exactly hardy critters, at the best of times. 

My 3, I look for them every morning when I awake, and then again when I get home at night - they're still in their first week in my tank and I just hope they'll survive and do well. 

Really beautiful fish - and, I'm slowly seeing some improvements on the glass algae, although they seem to have more preference for eatting the algae that's growing on the plant leaves 'first'. I'm translating this behavior as the plant algae growth are their meals, and the glass algae are their snacks. They sure are looking a lot fatter since getting introduced to my tank. 

On a different note, I got my plants and did some planting on all 3 tanks, I noticed that the 2.5 and 30 gallon has yellowed water - probably due to the fact that I used an Organic topsoil substrate switching up my 'test' method away from the Organic Choice miracle growth. - The 30 gallon yellow effect, thus, may not all be coming from the light system. 

I seem to be 'living' my fish tanks, these days. Wandering between one, to the next - ... puttering... enjoying the fish ... and suddenly it's 2:30 and I don't know where the night went. 

Great stress releaver though.


----------



## tug

bratyboy2 said:


> why in the hell did you pay 15 a pop for them!!!!! they go for 3 bucks here!!!!! OMG U WERE JUST ROBBED!!! should of went with a BN but i bet those were thirty


:blah: Bratyboy, what do you know about zebra oto's? Other then what you would pay for one.

:hippie: A little off topic web search, FYI:

Practical PMDD Information


----------



## RoseyD

Tug, my dear. Your last link makes my brain hurt. 

... in case I gave anyone a false impression. I'm horrible with science mumbo-jumbo... 

My li'l otos are all alive and well and have lasted a full week as of today.  I've been supplimentary feeding them because my glass is almost completely clean now, and I don't want to risk them starving... They're such peaceful worker-bees. 

I've been giving them a half of a romaine leaf - quick boiled - for the last few evenings and they are very good about turning it into lacework that wilts to almost nothing when I take the remnants from the tank. 

I'll have to do some experimenting of other veggies to add to their diet. But for now - with summer, and my heated attic - salad bits seems the easiest (and less heat conducive) to prepare for them (and me).


----------



## tug

What a nice idea. I have three, garden variety. Just when I think the shrimp has eaten one, after weeks of only seeing one, I'll see all three out together. They hide during the day except for the little one. They look like some sort of veggie loving shark. Cool beans! 
[-o< About your "brain pain".
I try to know good science, but I'm not great at math.


----------



## RoseyD

The only math I'm any good at, is soduku.


----------



## tug

Your full of it :^o


RoseyD said:


> The only math I'm any good at, is soduku.


Always good to get away,






WebSudoku.com


----------



## RoseyD

talking about being full of something... my cousin sent me this and it reminded me, somehow of fish... since it's been quite a 'cycles on the brain sort of month' 

To my friends who enjoy a glass of wine.. . and those who don't.
*
As Ben Franklin said:
In wine there is wisdom,
in beer there is freedom,
in water there is bacteria.

In a number of carefully controlled trials,
scientists have demonstrated that if we drink 1 liter of water each day, at
the end of the year we would have absorbed more than
1 kilo of Escherichia coli,
*(E. coli) - bacteria* found in feces. 

In other words, we are consuming
1 kilo of poop. 

However, we do NOT run that risk when
drinking wine & beer (or tequila, rum, whisky or other liquor), because
alcohol has to go through a purification
process of boiling, distilling, filtering and/or fermenting.* 

Remember* 
** Water = Poop,******* Wine = Health . 
Therefore, it's better to drink wine and talk stupid,
than to drink water and be full of ****. 
There is no need to thank me for this valuable information. 

(So what are we drinking today?) eace:


----------



## RoseyD

OH.... I should tell you - I tested the 30 gallon tank last night - and, it's testing 'zero' everything... 

Whereas, early last week - when I'd first set it up - it was showing a bit of ammonia, and low N(s)... 

Should I make the assumption that it's now cycled? Or should the zero Nitrate level bother me? 

As far as planted tanks go - the 30 definitely needs more plants. It's also got quite a lot of fish in it - so I worry that it's overstocked. Of course, 2 fish died over the weekend. The cory completely disappeared but I'm thinking that one of the Gourami ate it. The solo livebearer - may have died of loneliness or stress. 

I moved the two remaining cories back into the 20 gallon betta tank... No point giving those gouramis any more unnecessary temptations.


----------



## tug

My friend's mom used to say you eat a peck of dirt before you die. 
Here is some blogging from another site; 29g tank with a 65w light soon to be 2x65w
Take a look and see what you think.


----------



## RoseyD

It sounds like a LOT of dosing... 

I have a similar size tank that needs a lot more plants... I'm getting a light delivery today (I think) - So that I can finally (hopefully) see some growth on what's in there now. 

I borrowed the light from the 20 gallon to see if it would help keep the plants alive this past week - but it's still really dim lighting 65 watts just isn't enough on a 30 gallon tank... 

My new light is a T5 - 96 watts (mix of arcinic and 10k)... 

I stopped dosing the flourish on my tanks over week ago. - If it's not sitting beside the tank, I forget to do it. And the fridge/kitchen (flourish bottle) is two rooms away from the living room (tanks)... 

I think that my 30 gallon is already being dosed in some strange manner... the gravel that came with the tank was mixed with shells - and I didn't pull them out. I'm sure that the shells add some chemistry to my water, but don't ask me what... 

I have still NOT been convinced to go the CO2 dosing path... There's already too many things attached to my tank glass, I'd like it to be a lot more simple than it has yet become...


----------



## tug

You know what they say about assume. It makes an ass out of u and me.



RoseyD said:


> It sounds like a LOT of dosing...


My dear, I add nutrients with the water change (every 14 to 21 days) and I add a little trace when I top off the tank. Nothing has ever died from the things I've tried (nine months and counting) and the plants seem better off. When I started, I didn't give the attention to detail some people do towards building a substrate. I have gravel, fluorite and that's it. So, to feed the plants I add nutrients to the water stream. The fish are doing their part so I've been reducing the dose for NO3. The rest :arrow: (EI non CO2 method) is based on Liebig's law. This is a quick explanation for Liebig's Law of the Minimum - Liebig's Law with a cute illustration. It's not a lot, but it is enough for plants to grow without killing the fish I have.



RoseyD said:


> I have still NOT been convinced to go the CO2 dosing path... There's already too many things attached to my tank glass, I'd like it to be a lot more simple than it has yet become...


It really has very little to do with what you or I might want to do at this point in the game. It's finding a balance between what the plants need and the critters can live with - in the amount of light we provide. If I add a lot of light to my tank, because I like it to light up like a lighthouse, the growing needs of the plants will also increase. If you don't want to dose fertilizer or add CO2, then reduce the amount of light. I use two 24 watt daylight T5HO bulbs for only a few hours out of the day. The rest of the time only the one bulb is providing an acceptable level of light for a 20 gal NPT.



RoseyD said:


> I borrowed the light from the 20 gallon to see if it would help keep the plants alive this past week - but it's still really dim lighting 65 watts just isn't enough on a 30 gallon tank...


=; I'm sorry, but when did you become such an expert on what's not enough light for a 30 gallon tank. If I remember correctly your light was a 10k/460 actinic. Change it to a 65 w daylight/full spectrum bulb and it's plenty of light for a 30 gal NPT. Keep it like it is, over the 20 gal, and it might be closer to what you want for a NPT, except for that wasted actinic light energy part.


Philosophos said:


> How a 65w can go over 20g, with non-co2 and that lamp and fixture, without causing some nice algae blooms is a bit beyond me. Add a 12 hour light cycle on and I could only imagine what would happen. How is this supposed to balance out?
> 
> -Philosophos


:suspiciou What I think you like about the NPT concept is the fewer water changes they propose. So, why add more light then you need. Here is a thread from someone who likes to light up his tank, adds nothing to it and never wants to change his water. At least read the last part about the stinky water when he cleans out the tank and starts completely over again.  Its a hoot! "El Viejo"... a new aquarium path (to disaster?)


----------



## RoseyD

Tug, that was a good link! I loved reading of Viejo's experiences with his tank - and, sympathize that he had to re-do it. 

I hope he'll continue to put in updates on how the tank progresses. He gave some really good ideas for plants... I'm going to have to research this egeria he mentions... It could be quite helpful to have it to combat some of the hair algae issues (maybe)... 

I'm getting tired of all the algae that hangs out in my floaters... 

my ottos have done their job really well (20 g) with the other algae and I'm now feeding them Romaine lettuce and/or seaweed to suppliment their dietary requirements. 

There's still no algae showing in the 30 gallon - but no plant growth either. Even with the borrowed 65wt lamp - the tank hasn't changed much since I planted/replanted it (had to do significant replanting after attempting to catch the two cories. - #3 disappeared and I think one of the gouramis ate it)


----------



## RoseyD

Wow... the light arrived and I set it up last night - and let me say ... WHAT a LIGHT... It was a LOT more expensive than the one I had put on the 20 gallon - and it shows. 

20 gallon light - paid $83 - for a single satellite 65 watt. It's a power light on my 20 gallon giving me an extremely bright looking tank. (this was noticed last night when I put the fixture back onto the 20 gallon after having used it for the past week on the 30 gal.) 

The satellite did not come with any other special features. I can order seperately the stand for it - but I haven't yet and it sits directly on the glass/hood and glares in. 

The fixture that arrived yesterday - I paid $220 for it - The sundial T-5 canopy lightfixture 30". It has 2 timers to set seperately the arcenic and 10k bulbs. It has a fan and finally 3 switches that controls the 2 lcds, and the doubled flourescent bulbs. This not being enough, they give the option of whether to have the lcds be 'white' or 'blue' and include the additional blue caps in case you want to add them. And finally - they had the four legs to put the light up on a stand ... as well as 4 mini square do-hickeys - if you want to put the light lower down against the tank. 

So, this new light fixture, I put it together on the matching 'tall' (3?4? inch) stand - and it lights my tank. It's a bit more dim seeming than the fixture that resides on my 20 gallon. Part of this could be due to the raised level of the light. 

Things that will take getting used to - the sundial light is HUGE. It's a lot wider than I was expecting and it covers more of the top of the tank than I'd really like. It prevents opening the tank 'hatch' fully, even so that I have to hold the hatch open while dropping in the food. 

As well, the fixture is 30 inches, and the way the stand attaches makes it seem larger than the tank... I will need to play with how I attached them so that they are not the 'half inch' wider than the tank top requiring strategic placement so that all the legs stay even on the tank ledge/edge. (but that's a project for the weekend.)


----------



## tug

:whip: How do you plan to set up the lighting? The actinic and 10k bulbs that come with the Sundial are mostly for marine tank setups. How many lights are you running at the same time? Two T5's are plenty of light, but what about a noon day peak? If you oust the blue, (actinic) bulbs then the two remaining T5's will give you around 1.7 wpg.  Very nice! A PAR value would be much more accurate, but it would be a hard concept for me to convey even if I understood it. :noidea: Then you have color temperature to consider. Do you keep the 10k or look for something more pleasing to the eye? It isn't science, just esthetics. Here is a thread discussing Kelvin ratings that I found very helpful; geeks talk to geeks about light. When you know the bulb temperature you want, triphosphor bulbs provide a high Color Rendering Index (CRI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and they last much longer than fancier phosphor combinations. If you oust one of the lights, the three remaining lights will provide you with some great options. I think you are gong to love the Sundial.


----------



## Philosophos

tug said:


> .:suspiciou What I think you like about the NPT concept is the fewer water changes they propose. So, why add more light then you need. Here is a thread from someone who likes to light up his tank, adds nothing to it and never wants to change his water. At least read the last part about the stinky water when he cleans out the tank and starts completely over again.  Its a hoot! "El Viejo"... a new aquarium path (to disaster?)


I posted on that thread actually. 
Right here I believe.

I've let off because he wants to go do his thing and experiment. No sense tossing him methods he doesn't want to use. The deficiencies, sparseness, growth structures and barren stems all paint a bit of a rocky road. It's pretty similar to where I started to be honest, and it's an experience I'm glad to have had. It's nice to look back on where I came from right about now, when my CO2 is out and I'm losing some expensive new plants because I can't get a refill on the weekend.

PAR isn't anything too difficult to understand. There are certain wavelengths of light that cause photosynthesis; mostly chlorophyll A and B are considered, along with carotenoids. The amount of that type of light striking the sensor is measured in micromoles of photons per square meter. Light does have mass, after all.

The nice thing about PAR meters becoming more common slowly is that we get a release from worrying about the sort of light source. So long as we're okay with the power bill, and the tank doesn't boil from excess heat, people don't have to worry about where their light is coming from.

Speaking of which, has anyone not seen the group buy for par meters yet?

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

Tug - thus far, I set the sundial for a similar time schedule as I did on the 20 g. (the two 6 hour lightings - with a 2 hour break between them). I havent experimented with staggering the lighting scenario - or not running the arcinics - mostly because I have a vague rememberance of someone writing about PAR - and, how the arcinics run in tandem with the 10K could be doing something similar to the 6.5 K ... 

Yes, I will probably end up doing more experimentation as I go along - and, maybe switch out that arcinic for 6.5k bulbs and do a stagger of times ... but that will have to be for another paycheck. Seriously - ever since I started doing these fish tanks - I can't seem to save - there seems to be too many things I need... that it's adding up as a much more expensive hobby than I'd originally imagined.


----------



## tug

:-k No need to break into another paycheck.


RoseyD said:


> ...the two 6 hour lightings - with a 2 hour break.


How did this idea of a 2 hour break/siesta get started? You can see if your fish are fine in the morning light and say hello on your way to work. One light could come on at anytime, 3 pm if your a night owl or even later. Use the two actinic and two 10K for now.


----------



## RoseyD

It was someone posting here - a discussion ensued of the idea of siestas helping to deter algae growth. 

yes, my 20 gallon still has quite the abundance of algae that seems to be partially feeding my otos. (although, I do partially feed them veggies because I worry about them running out of algae they like and starving to death.) The 30 gal seems to be algae free - but its still in the 'first' week of the new light system. 

My floating plant (borrowed clippings from the 20 g) is growing like crazy. The plants below - no visible growth yet. 

my 2.5 gallon tank requires a lot of work... I don't do siestas on it - but I do have some glass algae. And, some of my plants were melting (removed them) - while the stem plants and floater - is quite quick growing. I've already had to make clippings and replanted those in the 'empty' spots. This small tank requires water changes - I'm doing weekly 50% changes, because every time I reach in to the soil to plant a clipping or remove dead plants - I've noted that the substrate stinks. My poor betta never complains - but if I were a fish - I SURE would.


----------



## RoseyD

ARGH! I've had a really frustrating evening/morning. My 20 gallon tank turned into a mystery deadzone. Last night, I found one of my bettas dead - my red one - looking completely washed out - like a ghost - no signs of illness, no bitemarks - just dead. 

I did a dip test - and had zero nitrates/nitrites - but the PH and GH levels were skyrocketed??? 

WHat would cause this? For the first month and a half, the PH was testing at 7.2- 7.4 and the GH was always 3 - 4 drops. 

The only change that has occured on the tank is that I began a week ago to supplimental feed with lettuce for my otos. And, On Sunday, I switched to cucumber (I went shopping). And, I added the new Echeim canister filter to the tank on Saturday (which has given significant more water circulation - so I was able to shut off the koralia powerhead). 

I decided to do a 25% water change (I needed to top off the tank anyway so it seemed prudent to change some) - and this morning, I found another dead betta! - 

ARGH! and looking at the other 4 - the colored ones, at least - they all have stress stripes. 

So I did the API tests this morning and the PH level is now back down to 7.4. No ammonia. no nitrites. no nitrates. - zilch. 

The cories and otos are munching away. Although I removed the cucumber that was 24 hours old - this morning, and decided it was best not to replace it until I figure out what's wrong with my tank. There's sufficient algae still that's regrowing on the glass that the otos won't starve today. 

I had to set up emergency homes for the remaining 4 betta girls though. I just don't trust the tank with them, especially seeing how stressed they're looking. I have 2 - 2 gallon 'Q' bowls - and I took the smallest 2 babies and they're in a breeder's net hanging in the 30 gallon tank with a ton of floaters around the outside of the net to protect them from too much pestering... 

My King Betta male in that tank - His reaction thus far is to do a LOT of swimming around the tank and checking them out though... and some flairing... Definitely this is not an ideal fix. 

When I woke up this morning, I had not intended to turn that tank into a sorority... now, I don't know what other options I will have. 

How do I figure out what's wrong with my 20 gallon, and how the hell do I fix it???


----------



## Philosophos

Two guesses would be a residue in the new filter or its media that didn't get rinsed out (more likely), or the possibility that the city pulled a line flush in your area (less likely).

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I rinsed the media... (but not the sponges) but, since there doesn't seem to be many other alternatives. I guess I need to read the manual on how to open the filter up without causing a flood. I never imagined I'd have to figure this out so 'soon' after setting it up. - Oh well. 

And here I was thinking that my fish were having an allergic reaction to vegetables.


----------



## RoseyD

My state has been having a lot of problems with e-coli this summer (but not my city, not yet anyway) - however, over the weekend, I heard that a town about 10 miles away is now affected with it - and that they're treating it with chlorine and boiling drinking water. 

My water has never tested chlorine - (test strips) - and I treat with the Aqua-safe product prior to putting fresh water in my tanks.


----------



## tug

Hi Rose,
How hot is it getting during the day, (Their water should not vary more than two degrees in a 24 hour period) and where might you be aiming the water coming out from the canister filter? Towards/across the top surface so that it can add a little O2 back into the mix? I might get in trouble for this, but adding a short spray bar can help to direct the water flow where you want it more effectively. I spent about $12 on that little DIY project and it was well worth it.

IMHO, you are stressing your plants/fish beginning with the level of light you use and each time you move them, add stuff to the tank, add more fish, leave rotting food/plants in the water for too long and with poor O2/DO levels / poor water movement, (plant leaves should be moving in the water current just a little.)
This thread might give you some idea of the apparent randomness of fish death.


PaulNorth said:


> Just wanted to post a progress report. In brief, the tank is doing wonderfully well. I have no idea what took place those many months ago, but surmise it was a case of too many fish in an earlier stage of the NPT, so emergent O2 starvation was a problem (a bubbler didn't save any of them - it came on so quickly, like a total crash) - I was really saddened by this.





RoseyD said:


> I decided to do a 25% water change (I needed to top off the tank anyway so it seemed prudent to change some) - and this morning, I found another dead betta!


"Water right from the tap should NEVER be used. Before changing let the water age and become the same temperature as that that you are changing from." - The Betta Barracks, http://www.betta-barracks.ourfamily.com/care.htm
The Betta Barracks also has a helpful F.A.Q. page.



RoseyD said:


> My King Betta male in that tank - His reaction thus far is to do a LOT of swimming around the tank and checking them out though... and some flairing... Definitely this is not an ideal fix.
> When I woke up this morning, I had not intended to turn that tank into a sorority... now, I don't know what other options I will have.


"Details of breeding bettas are familiar: you'll find plenty of stuff in the links that follow. But putting the female with the male can be a little tricky sometimes, even when she looks ripe. Al Castro offered a good trick in Aquarium Fish: he put the female in a glass jar filled to a half-inch from the top, set into the male's tank so that the tank water also comes to within a half-inch of the jar's top. When she's ready, she'll jump the jar! The jar would protect her afterwards." - Skepticalaquarist, http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/node/11


----------



## RoseyD

goodness Tug, you keep giving me a bunch to think about! 

Going out of order - I was and am NOT trying to breed my bettas or any other fish. I don't have the space for fry or for the attitudes that come with breeding parents. I used the 30 gallon and breeding net as a holding tank only, to give me time to work out the ?s that arose from finding two bettas mysteriously dead in a 12 hour span. 

So - I got home last night and emptied 1/4th of the tank so that I'd have the tank water to clean filters and let me tell you - what a disgusting amount of black water that came from rinsing and squeezing out the sponges, and from trying to clear the clogged mulm out from the duetto. 

I got things put together again, and added new water to the tank (declorinated) and on feel test - similar temp to the water that had come from it. I like to keep the water as high up in the tank as possible because it decreases the chance of the floaters getting caught in the current coming from the enheim's out-take pipe. Which is very forceful in pushing the floaters right to the bottom where they catch in my other plants and remain there. As for getting more oxygen into the tank, the Duetto is still attached and running - which does give a waterfall effect quite nicely (and less forcefully) 

things beyond my control: fluctuating temps in my apartment. I live in an old Victorian attic apartment - I have a decent crossflow of air because there's windows on all sides - However, the temps fluctuate between morning and night, and one day to the next. This morning, leaving - the apartment is low 70's (as is outside) - by afternoon, the temp in Boston is supposed to hit 91 and humid... imagine the result on my attic ... Now I have fans running, and if it were hot when I was leaving this morning, I might have been convinced to close windows and put on the AC - but sometimes, you just don't know when to trust the weather man. 

In winter - my home is pretty regulated - my bedroom is about 65, and the living room (where the heater is located and both the larger tanks) is between 75 and 80. 

Thus far this past month, I've noticed the tanks temperatures fluctuating between 74-78 (cool/warm days) and 85 (hot days).


----------



## Philosophos

tug said:


> "Water right from the tap should NEVER be used. Before changing let the water age and become the same temperature as that that you are changing from." - The Betta Barracks, http://www.betta-barracks.ourfamily.com/care.htm


I'm not sure I'd take that quote too seriously. Not only are most tap chlorine levels lower than ld50 thresholds for 24 hours, but the splashing from refills helps to gas it off, and it's only usually 50% of the column. Throw a little prime or other product in the tank first and it does just fine. I've been filling my tanks by approximately matching the tap temperature to the tank, adding some prime, and filling directly in to the tank from the tap via python.



RoseyD said:


> Thus far this past month, I've noticed the tanks temperatures fluctuating between 74-78 (cool/warm days) and 85 (hot days).


Try leaving the light off when it gets too hot; it may help your tanks temp stay down a couple of degrees. If the tank is ever hotter than the air around it, pull the lid off and blow a fan over the top.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I haven't noticed the water being warmer than the air (yet) - but for my 2.5 gallon planted, I did 'leave' the light off today, thinking that if it should get really hot - the sun coming through the window should be sufficient to keep the plants alive (maybe not growing, but definitely alive) until there's a break in the heat wave. 

Surprisingly enough, I went out for lunch and it's gorgeous out - next to no humidity but still 90. Hey - if it's like this - my apartment won't be 'feeling' hot when I get home tonight. (SUCH A RELIEF! for fish, cats, and ME)


----------



## tug

Philosophos said:


> I'm not sure I'd take that quote too seriously.
> 
> 
> tug said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Water right from the tap should NEVER be used. Before changing let the water age and become the same temperature as that that you are changing from." - The Betta Barracks,
Click to expand...

I should clarify. I only took the quote to mean, *use* your tap water but not right away. let it gas off, and come to room temperature, ect.


Philosophos said:


> I've been filling my tanks by approximately matching the tap temperature to the tank, adding some prime, and filling directly in to the tank from the tap via python.


Check the faucet. Not everyone will be able to add the python's gate valve, thingamajig. I still like to let mine gas off in a 15 gallon bucket, (It cost $15.00 and a power pump for another $10.00.) The pump runs in the bucket for a couple hours, adds O2 and later pumps the water into the tank. It's still cheeper then the python. Given the number of fish it can always double as a QT.

I do find it interesting how quickly chlorine gases off. I'm not sure if chloramines do. Anyway, I add Amquel and dose EI. Let the water circulate, adding to the total of DO! Thats a good thing. Sorry, but I haven't used my python in a long time. Just the same, it's good to hear from you dear philosophs. How do you see the PAR using Roseyd's lights, or is there any need to revisit the question?

Rosey, do you have any pictures of the cat?


----------



## RoseyD

the cat? which one, I have 5. Or did you mean the oto cats? 

I shoot Pentax (and the pentax joke is that we're a whole bunch of cat lovers) I have plenty of 'cat' pictures.  They've, for many a year, been my top models... and then I got fish.

ahem... I don't know how you do it, Tug. 5 gallons is surely quite heavy... I'd never be able to carry around a 15 gallon bucket. 

*** You must be quite a body builder type, eh?***


----------



## RoseyD

Just because you asked ...

two things that should go together?







here's one of their cuter moments...


----------



## RoseyD

Oh and a last one ... 







Isabelle before she grew up?


----------



## tug

I'm glad I asked. A very good looking crew you have there too.


RoseyD said:


> I'd never be able to carry around a 15 gallon bucket.


The 15 gallon goes next to the tank. You just have to haul 3 - 4 gallons at a time from the sink. Let it sit while the cats watch the water swoosh around.

:fish:


----------



## Philosophos

tug said:


> Check the faucet. Not everyone will be able to add the python's gate valve, thingamajig.


Personally I don't use an actual python. For about half the price you can use a cheap waterbed fill kit, buy some kinked garden hose at a severe discount from some hardware stores, and be on your way. I still keep a small syphon around for detailed cleanup work and a couple smaller tanks, but that's about it.



tug said:


> I do find it interesting how quickly chlorine gases off. I'm not sure if chloramines do.


Chloramine does not gas off, and the water company may not be so kind as to give notice of a change in purification methods. This is why I've stopped relying on just aging the water; one round of diseases and deaths will cost me more than a few years of dechlorinator.



tug said:


> How do you see the PAR using Roseyd's lights, or is there any need to revisit the question?


As you said, run the two T5's, get ready to go down to one if BBA or CO2 deficiencies become a problem (If it looks like calcium deficiency, it's probably CO2). Personally I would've opted for two NO T5's (coralife or something, $70 for two fixtures) or other cheaper lighting system, taken the money I saved over that big sundial, and gotten most of the components for compressed CO2.

-Philosophos


----------



## tug

AmQuel is a de-chlorinator and aging the water allows the CO2 to come out of solution. Because plants have a rough time adapting to different CO2 levels and algae does not. Water changes in non CO2 enriched tanks, (especially frequent water changes) add to the problems associated with fluctuating CO2 levels/algae.


> "Changing CO2 around day to day, hour to hour, week to week the plant struggles and spends more energy adapting to CO2, than with growth, acquiring nutrients, catching light etc. In non CO2 systems, changing water frequently causes a spike in high CO2 week to week etc, done only once every few months is better." - Tom Barr


Sleeping Cats


----------



## RoseyD

Tug, you need to put some clothes on. Cute cat though. 

Philosophos, when I originally read up on the natural planted tank and low tech, I was thinking it meant you'd have a tank, and a really good light. - one plug in the wall. 

Now I'm running 3 'trial' natural planted tanks - and, I look at all the electric plugs ... 

the only tank that I have with only a light (one plug) is the 2.5 gallon betta tank. - It's growing really well, by the way - but, let me tell you - every week I scoop out about 3/4th of the water because the bottom of the tank develops a stink. My betta doesn't complain - he's blowing his happy bubble nests and swimming as best he can through all the stemmed plants and floaters. 

My 20 gallon tank was probably started wrong - I got the bright light and set up the plants, and then thought that I'd not have a filter on it - surely I'd read somewhere that if you had fish doing the circulating you wouldn't need a filter... but then the bottom of the tank developed that stench, and hence the addition of more and more plugs. I started with a low powered duetto 100 filter (still with the impression that I wouldn't 'ideally' need a filter system long term...) then, added a second duetto. a week later - I added the koralia nano to circulate the lower tank ... last weekend, I decided to add a better filter system, and got a eheim 2232. - so - all that, plus another chord for the heater (necessary for the new england winter season)... 

My 30 gallon - I just shrugged it off, and immediately got the eheim filter, and the koralia nano and ordered the T5 lighting... and have the heater prepared and waiting - and I set up a duetto filter from off of the 20 gallon as well, because at the time of setting up the 30 gal, the 20 gal was almost finished with cycling. 

- what does this mean? ... a lot of 'equipment' hanging on, or inside the tank. - I really like the 'low tech approach, but I wonder where I went wrong that I'm not there yet.

And, no - I don't want a CO2 system...  Nice try, though. Some day, you may convince me... but, I'm still holding firm with the idea of "really, REALLY" wanting less mess hanging on my tanks.


----------



## RoseyD

Tug, I forgot to mention - when can my living room look like a living room? It's one thing getting boxes of one equipment than another unpacked... but then, between those and the buckets, that ideally should be holding water for 24 hours ... and now, you suggest a 15 gallon holding tank? ... 

you do realize ... this is a home, a living room ... a place where I like to occasionally (well, rarely do I really do this) entertain... certainly, the empty boxes will make it to the curb for trash day, but, those darn buckets need to go away. I'm tired of this mess.... 

I love my fish, and it's a great project, a good stress reliever when I really need it (AND BOY! Do I need it!) - but, I wonder when my living room will look like a living room again. 

I'm using the aqua safe declorinator (to get rid of the bad chems) - and matching temps by adding hot/cold from tub to bucket and getting it pretty close. If I'm doing a significant water change - I pay special close attention to the tank's thermometer to make sure that I'm not shocking the fish. I haven't seen the fish complaining over my water change method, and I do pay attention to their behavior. 

There may be a better solution out there but without making my livingroom look like a disorganized fish-shop ... UGH! I'll tell you what you can do with that 15 gallon bucket


----------



## Philosophos

tug said:


> AmQuel is a de-chlorinator and aging the water allows the CO2 to come out of solution. Because plants have a rough time adapting to different CO2 levels and algae does not. Water changes in non CO2 enriched tanks, (especially frequent water changes) add to the problems associated with fluctuating CO2 levels/algae.


Pouring the water in to the tank brings the CO2 levels up again; the atmosphere is loaded with something around 400ppm CO2, higher inside homes quite often. Also, to be honest, I take a vastly different approach to no-CO2 tanks. I aerate them very heavily, because I know that there's piles of CO2 in the air; more than fish can respirate. If you're retaining your CO2 through low surface disturbance, you're also dropping out your O2 levels. This is a great way to both stunt fish growth and mess with the carbon fixation process.

Rosey, to be honest, you're taking high tech light to a low tech tank. Diana might be getting nice growth in hear 3wpg setup, but she fails to state why it works; not all species uptake carbon through their roots, odds are she's selective about her species. If that isn't how it works, then the tank will have to cope with GSA or some sort of nutrient deficiency by limiting another nutrient. She hasn't said though, so you don't even have a known method to reproduce her results with.

What has worked consistently for low tech tanks is low light, decent feedings, and the odd shot of micronutrients with even a little NPK. Monthly water changes aren't a bad idea; I'm not sure why people resist them.

-Philosophos


----------



## tug

Yes, I totally understand.


Philosophos said:


> Monthly water changes aren't a bad idea; I'm not sure why people resist them.


 We could also say, high organic waste content is bad for plants and encourages algal blooms and water changes remove wast and algal spores. If that isn't a good thing, then what?. So, if it isn't the yellowing water we're after, it could be our curiosity, a test. Each of use may want to know, how long before we need a change? But, how to get there? :drinkers: 
I find NO3 and organics reach unacceptable levels after 20 days. When I set up the 20H the accompanying water changes occurred more often (high organic waste, dead, dying plants, hence more plants and moving them in and out of the substrate). New setups seam to require some water changes. My nitrate test can read just above 20 ppm before I feel a need for a WC. Same as when the tank was set up (20 ppm.) It's just that now, I have a little more time between each WC. If I ever find the day when NO3 stays around 10, I might never change the water. I knew I would be mud larkin and mucking about in the tank, fooling with plants. If I only knew half of what I think I know.

:yield:


RoseyD said:


> Tug, I forgot to mention - when can my living room look like a living room?


Give yourself two or four months, a year if you mean the tank itself. October will be when you see plants that decided to stick around for a while.

And yes, I agree with Philosophos;


Philosophos said:


> ... dropping out your O2 levels. This is a great way to both stunt fish growth and mess with the carbon fixation process.


Wouldn't this make a good argument for aerating the water before you add it to the tank? What I would like to know, (research project for me) what transport method does CO2 use to get into solution from air to water. From watching the Hagen ladder CO2 bubbles get smaller at different rates.

I hear a lot about the tendency for CO2 to move out of solution and why frequent water changes, algae and CO2 are frowned upon for a NPT. I think the demand for CO2, is O2 related. It's hard to quantify that relationship but I can watch the fish moving in and out of the plants.


Philosophos said:


> What has worked consistently for low tech tanks is low light, decent feedings, and the odd shot of micronutrients with even a little NPK.


Rosey! :cheer2:
It all goes inside one or two 10 gallon tubs (a compromise, sweets and besides a 15 gallon tub might not come with a lid) cleaned and filled periodically with a bleach solution, along with the ten foot watering hose, bucket, pump, filter, drippy thing, ect.


----------



## Philosophos

tug said:


> Yes, I totally understand.
> We could also say, high organic waste content is bad for plants and encourages algal blooms and water changes remove wast and algal spores. If that isn't a good thing, then what?. So, if it isn't the yellowing water we're after, it could be our curiosity, a test. Each of use may want to know, how long before we need a change? But, how to get there? :drinkers:


I'm not sure there's a definite way to nail it down. Some people change their water yearly, and keep a healthy tank. I've noticed that they're nearly all heavily planted, low to mid light, and low bioload. For most of us though, lots of fauna is preferable, and one water change a month is acceptable for low light tanks. Anyone who can't give an hour a month clearly isn't that interested in their tank. Besides, after a while it's more work not to do water changes.



tug said:


> I hear a lot about the tendency for CO2 to move out of solution and why frequent water changes, algae and CO2 are frowned upon for a NPT. I think the demand for CO2, is O2 related. It's hard to quantify that relationship but I can watch the fish moving in and out of the plants.


Here's the start of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_constant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law

I think I may spend a while reading on it today; I've never really known the details.

-Philosophos


----------



## RoseyD

I have no problem doing monthly water changes ... I have non planted tanks that I do 50 percent changes every week- 10 days ... a month between changes on the planted tanks is quite a blessing... 

As for flora/fauna loads. My flora is much more quickly growing on the 20 gallon than on the 30 gallon. And none of my tanks are overstocked (at least not yet)... 

More than half of my fish are juvies. 

example of fish stocking - 30 gallon H tank: 2 juvie female gourami (gold & pearl), 1 flame adult gourami, 2 boesemani rainbows, 7 cardinal tetra, 2 long fin serpae tetra, and one male king betta. 

fish stocking on 20 gallon H tank: 4 female bettas (2 still babies), 3 zebra otos, 3 albino cories, 8 neon tetras.

I may need to get a longer tank eventually to house the rainbows, and two gourami - but for now, the 30" is plenty of room for them -the Flame G- largest fish is around 4". The Pearl G. and king betta are both around 3". The Rainbows are just over 1".


----------



## tug

I said I would, so here it is. How to modify the little DJ 100 into a CO2 reactor/surface skimmer, http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6231-diy-co2-reactor-surface-skimmer.html I think (I know I shouldn't) the light we have being what it is, that adding a little CO2 will help the plants and might even lower the NO3 levels in the tank. I am seeing some improvement already. If nothing else the first modification to the filter allows it to be used as a surface skimmer at night. I only realized a few days ago that the filters suction cups can be placed on either side with a minimal amount of fuss. How are you and are you going to Aquafest 09?


----------



## RoseyD

all my duettos are currently being used to cycle other tanks...

an update on the planted tanks: *the 20G High* - last week, my algae growth went scary - so much so that my neons were at the top of the tank gasping for air. I moved them out into another tank.

And, to combat the algae - well, I threw away all my floaters which were completely filled with a mix of what could best be called sludge algae. The only fish remaining in that tank are 3 otos, 3 cories, and one king betta. - They all are doing well although, the otos seem to not be keeping up with the algae growth.

As well, my echeim filter on that tank has slowed down considerably - I took it apart twice already to rinse out the sponges of mulm but, it hasn't brought the flow back to what it had been that first week. I may need to consider replacing the media completely if it goes much slower than what it already is.

Last night, I finally decided I couldn't put up with the green glass any longer, so I did a scrape and suction of as much of the algae as I could get from the tank and replaced a quarter of the water. Finally, the water looked clear/clean again this morning.

I'm considering whether I should get more algae eaters for this tank, since the otos aren't able to keep up. I'll hit my LFS tomorrow and look for some shrimp.

the 30G update: All's well. the floaters are growing like weeds. Lower plants - are all very slow growing. a little green glass algae showing at the water line, but nothing else showing. I will need to do a partial water change on this tank soon - it's been over a month, and it's time that I deal with the high tanin coloring in the water.

Ekheim filter - no reduced flow - still working like a charm. It probably helps that there wasn't much plant detritus in this tank - as well as the inflow pipe isn't as close to tank floor level.

The *2.5 gal. non-filtered *tank - is growing and growing and growing. It finally doesn't have a smell anymore now that I've taken out the plants that were not doing well with the light source I am using on it. I am running a flourescent 'day' lamp on it, for 12 hours a day - I am using that tank as a one betta aquarium - and the betta LOVES the jungle of foliage to swim through. And, I have to admit - it's cool to see in the 'micro' set-up how the plants are supposed to grow. The tank is mostly a variety of stem plants with a floater on the top to give the betta a break from the lighting...

algae? yes - but scraping once a month seems to be enough to deal with glass algae - no outbreaks of any other types.

The newest tank set up - a *20 g long* - one week old - I used the miracle grow with large gravel - and the water was and still is very clear. - I have two of my 3 duettos running on this tank, since both of them were cycled already - and it seemed a good way to get that tank running appropriately. The lighting on this tank - is using the recycled 30" hood light that had come with my 30 gal. tank - it makes for low lighting - but, the tank isn't 'fully' planted yet - It is heavily reliant on floater plants too because it's a betta sorority tank (12 little girls).

This tank is directly in a front window - but, that window only receives about 2 hours of light each day (late afternoon sun).

Last - I have one final *15 gal high *- with the substrate prepared - but no plants to put in it - so for the past week, it's sat without water, just settling... I bought a basic hood for it, with 2 - flourescent aquarium bulbs (25 wt each - I was looking for 15 wt bulbs but couldn't find 2 of them) - and a basic whisper in tank canister filter. - I didn't want to go crazy on this tank - I wanted to try to set up the most basic scenario and see what would come of it... Once the tank is set up, it will only hold a betta with some cories for company. Once my plants grow back from my last week's trimming - I will move this tank forward...

Tug, I have no plans to attend the aqua-fest - It seems more of a place for 'pros' than new hobbyists.


----------



## tug

*Low levels of O2*

You would be surprised at the value a 3 inch spray bar will bring. Nothing fancy, Spray Bar Return for 494 Tubing. I think you can get them for less then ten bucks. Just cut it to the length you want.

:deadhorse


RoseyD said:


> In reading that I'd need more light than the basic one that came on the hood, I have ordered a Satellite single flourescent with integrated lunar light - 10K daylight/460 arcinic - 65Watt. I'm hoping that this will be enough light for all plant types? Thanks in advance for all suggestions and advice you all have. -Rose


Light is what drives plant growth and CO2 / nutrient requirements. The lighting on the 20 H is a big part of your problem, IMHO. Without CO2, it will be interesting to see what happens given the different lighting levels on each tank. It should show which light is better suited to a NPT.

Just keeping it real.
Aqua-fest is open to everyone. I'm certainly not a pro by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## tug

I found this thread and would also recommend this heater, (one less thing in the tank to look at and extremely efficient.) The 200 watt would be sufficient even for your winters.


Rachel said:


> So, in summary, I highly recommend the Hydor ETH inline heater for your aquarium needs. I know you all probably have different opinions and experiences, feel free to share, but don't burst my bubble too much! heh heh


http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3743+11369&pcatid=11369


----------



## Philosophos

I just bought one of those, I have yet to get it running though. Everyone I've talked to who has used one has been very happy with the newer manufactured ones. The old ones stuck on, broke down, etc. very quickly it seems. The accuracy on these guys is very high apparently.

-Philosophos


----------

