# Crypt leaf width



## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

I have just your normal crypts... Wendtii variations and some Cordata. With my wendtii, especially, the leaves are thinner, not too crinkly and grow more upright. Obviously, wendtii is known for spanning out, robust leaves, crinkle, "shine," etc. I have plenty of light in my tank (125g, 8x 39w T5HO). I don't dose much right now (probably answering my own question here) and CO2 is currently off.

I'm just frustrated because I see these awesome low-tech tanks where the crypts are wide-leafed, big and beautiful. Mine are scrawny 

Any pointers?


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

bump?


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## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

Many plants (like crypt. sp.) will change leaf shape, color, or pattern based on environmental conditions. The best example is the switch from emersed to submersed conditions. How they are structured when they change has a lot to do with the type and quantity of chloroplasts needed for the light conditions that you have (spectra, intensity, duration).

Chloroplasts are cells in the plants leaves that collect light energy and turn it into "food" that the plant can use - biology 101. The lower the amount of light that the plant has, the more of these cells it will need. The more cells that the plant needs, the more room it will take to contain them. Thus, the leaves will get darker and wider under lower light conditions.

However, not all light is equal. There are different spectrums of light ranging from blue to green to red. Each spectra is composed of energy bursts called photons of different sizes. Blue being the smallest and containing the least amt. of energy as a result, and red being the largest and containing the most amt. of energy.

Each chloroplast contains chlorophyl that harvests the light (like battery acid). This chlorophyll is different in color depending upon the spectra of light that it cannot harvest reflecting that light resulting in teh color that we can see! If there is a lot of light particles, then the red becomes the most reflected because it has the most energy. There is no blue chlorophyll (there is blue pigment like skin color in some flowers), so green becomes the color of choice in low light conditions. Because of this low light plants are usually deep green.

These low light plants are deep green because they have to make the most of the light they receive by growing more more chloroplasts. The chloroplasts are like windows that harvest what they can and let the rest go through (so they don't burn out as fast!). To make the most of a little bit of light they need many, many "windows" layer upon each other to collect all that light. We know this is true because the shadows cast by these plants are very deep indicating that little to no light is getting past the leaves.

Plants cannot control how they grow - it is entirely (almost entirely) environmentally controlled. If there is enough Carbon, Nutrients, and Light, they will grow as fast as they can. The plant's life ambition is to collect enough energy and nutrients to make seeds and reproduce. As a result, the plant will grow as fast as it can with the least amount of resources spent on unnecessary cells - like more chloroplasts or leaf structure and will concentrate on growing closer to the ample amt of light (and CO2-rich air) getting longer, thinner, and paler.

The drive for more CO2 is very important in carbon deficient environments. It is very much a limiting factor for growth which often result in thin, elongated leaves. [This is most likely the direct cause of your problem but only part of it however significant]. The plant will use what resources it has to grow towards the atmosphere if there are enough nutrients and energy to create the structure it needs for this (meaning that there is enough nitrogen and other nutrients specific to these cells).

The result of all of this is that is desirable in plants that naturally live in these conditions (like stem plants) but not in plants that are supposed to be large and deep green. If you want deeper color and more compact growth in plants that naturally grow in low light (Because higher levels of light can induce compactness in high-light plants b/c of their natural biology) you need to provide them with those conditions.

There are several ways to do this. The best way would be to shade them with something - like stemmies or floating plants. You can lower the intensity of the light (remove a bulb or something) or you can lessen the time that the plants get light (although that is kinda debatable as to its effectiveness b/c of CO2 levels and whatnot) or you can raise the height of the light fixture (lowering the intensity via the inverse square law).

I do not recommend getting a different fixture or bulb because this alters the spectra of light the plants need and could result in them abandoning the leaves that they've grown completely to regrow new leaves. It is inevitable that the plant will make new leaves, but if you do it right, they will first grow more chloroplasts which will deepen the color and then throw out better shaped leaves at which point you can remove the thin ones.

Point being - you control the environment and with a basic understanding of biology and light you can influence the shape of your plants (within the bounds of their natural physiology). I hope this helps and I'm sorry for the length. I wanted to make a point.


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

Dryn said:


> However, not all light is equal. There are different spectrums of light ranging from blue to green to red. Each spectra is composed of energy bursts called photons of different sizes. Blue being the smallest and containing the least amt. of energy as a result, and red being the largest and containing the most amt. of energy.


This is incorrect. I don't think the *size* of the photon is really that different between different areas of the electromagnetic spectrum (In fact, the photon is usually considered "massless"). Instead, the energy and subsequent wavelength of the photon is all that's different. More importantly, blue light is of higher energy and has a shorter wavelength than red light which is of lower energy and has a longer wavelength.

That said, Crypts are heavy root feeders. What substrate are you using? I use CO2 and soil / mineralized soil substrates and have never had a problem with crypts growing poorly. Amano also reports that crypts (and echinodorus, too) really appreciate a nutrient rich substrate (i.e. Power sand special). This is probably why you're seeing low tech tanks with amazing crypts - The soil substrate does amazing things for them. In fact, I find that they manage to get overly large and luxurious in my soil-based aquariums if I'm not paying attention to them.


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## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

I used size because it is easier to understand. Photons don't really have a size since they are pure energy. Like you said, more of a wavelength, but this is a difficult concept to grasp because they cannot really be seen.

And I did have them backwards... sorry... red wavelengths are longer but they contain _less_ energy.

I agree that crypts need soil-based substrate even though they can absorb nutrients through their leaves. They are found in mineral poor water but with very good substrates.

Howver, I doubt that nutrient availablility is much of an issue unless you see signs of deficiency like holes, yellowing, discoloration, etc.

It is more likely that a lack of CO2 and an excess of light is the problem. Low tech tanks rely on soil-based substrates and low light levels. Plants that live in these conditions in the wild will look their best in these types of setups.

That said, I was trying to help...


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

Dryn, thank you for your response. I can tell you took some time on that and I appreciate it.
(you should blog that somewhere, it's very useful!)

I do understand the basic principles you've illustrated. Here's some info that I should have included:

Substrate consists of fluorite, pea gravel, ADA Amazonia and some sand from way back when. I've recently added root tabs at the bases as well to see if this helps.

So basically, what I've deduced here as the advice I should take is to focus a little more on the nutrients [root heavy] available to them. My light is just fine.


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## edwardn (Nov 8, 2008)

Dryn, Chloroplasts are NOT cells!!!

My reading ended upon statement of yours that chloroplasts ARE cells....


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## Dryn (Sep 6, 2007)

This was an off-the-hip response (albeit a long one). I wasn't writing a discertation on the topic.
You are right, edwardn, chloroplasts are not cells. They are organelles which reside inside of the cells and collect sunlight. I was trying to make it easier to understand. Their proper name doesn't change their function in any way, nor is your comment constructive to the person who asked the question. I wanted to give them an idea of how it all goes together so that they could make the decision on their own about how they want to proceed with thier hobby.

I apologize for this in advance but it seems to happen way to often in these forums... Why attack me and with the "so I quit reading" ? You could have simply made the point that they were called something else. Thank you for your input but if you cannot say anything nice, why say anything at all? Jeffyfunk corrected my mistake about the photons without being offensive.

At any rate, I hope this helped some, jesse, despite my several errors.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

What you find is that crypts with easy access to sunlight only need to make small leaves to gather enough "food" but plants in deeper tanks with dimmer lighting tend to make larger leaves given the correct macro and micro-nutrients are available.


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