# Flourish - Did you know?



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I recently was corresponding with Seachem support about Flourish, Flourish Fe and cloudiness/precipitation/efficiency in high KH waters. All items in quotes are from responses from Seachem.

First of all, regarding the precipitation/efficiency:

"The gluconate works equally well in both soft and hard water... The fact that you are getting a white cloudiness would indicate that you are precipitating out the iron... In waters with an extremely high phosphate or carbonate hardness Iron can precipitate out... Its not a reaction of the Gluconate but of the iron itself."

I assume then that the precipitated Fe is not available to plants? What exactly is it precipitating with in high KH waters? Can Fe bind with carbonates?

The second point is something I had not really realized:

"Flourish is designed as a trace element supplement. When following the dosage on the bottle the following is how much iron you are adding with each product

Flourish has 0.0064 mg/L (ppm) of Iron per 5 mL in 250 L
Flourish Iron has 0.2 mg/L (ppm) of Iron per 5 mL in 200 L

So as you can see Flourish Iron adds a lot more Iron. Our dosing chart recommends to add 1 cap of Flourish Iron per 50 gallons every day."

Call me a bit slow (or senile? ) but I never realized that Flourish was not made as an iron plus trace supplement but more of a purely trace supplement that happens to have a tiny bit of iron in it. I had always assumed that Flourish Fe was a product that was only used in specific situations/tanks that had Fe deficiencies *despite* the dosing of Flourish.

(And by the way, the Fertilator gives 0.06mg/l of iron for the above dose of Flourish and 0.25mg/l for the Flourish Fe. Seachem confirmed that it is 0.0064mg/l and not 0.06mg/l.)

So after all this time it seems I have finally woken up to the fact that Flourish and Flourish Fe were always meant to be used *together*. Otherwise you're only adding very very little Fe at their recommended dose. Their fert chart does show Flourish being dosed twice a week and Flourish Fe every day...

Maybe I'm the only one that had this misconception. But I thought I'd throw this out on the table for any others that thought the same thing  .

By the way, I am consistently impressed by the responsiveness of Seachem's customer service and tech support


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Having hard water and seeing the cloudiness, I had asked them the same question about the precipitation issue and had received the same response. Someone in a forum said to me that the iron which precipitates out is still available to the plants, it just must be taken in via the roots - don't know if that's correct or not. I add both Flourish and Flourish iron daily to all my tanks, probably at a lower dosage than others do, and this is because of the precipitation. (I add 3ml Flourish and 2ml iron to 50 gal daily) I add in the morning before going to work and by the time I get home, the cloudiness is gone.



> By the way, I am consistently impressed by the responsiveness of Seachem's customer service and tech support


Very true! They have always been very responsive when I have contacted them with any questions.


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## JerseyScape (Nov 18, 2005)

I use the the Iron, Flourish and Excel at the same time. The only draw back is that I need to trim my tank every 2-3 days. (I do get cloudiness sometimes)


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

Bert H said:


> Someone in a forum said to me that the iron which precipitates out is still available to the plants, it just must be taken in via the roots - don't know if that's correct or not.


Unfortunately, no one knows if thats correct or not. What's the redox potential in our substrate? I haven't seen any data on this, or even the effects of chelated/versus non-chelated iron, so its an "educated" guess with a 50/50 shot of being correct  I have very reasonable levels of phosphate (can't be more than 2.0ppm assuming zero uptake) and 2 KH and I get this precipitation, that doesn't seem very high to me. I don't get this precipitation with TMG.

Jeff


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

My KH is 15 (GH is 19) and I get the precipitate as soon as I dose more than about 3ml of Flourish Fe in my 200l tank.


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## adin (Oct 9, 2004)

why would there be a precipitate in the tank if there isn't any in the original concentrated solution from the bottle?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I get precipitate when I dose Flourish *Fe*, not the basic Flourish.


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## adin (Oct 9, 2004)

adin said:


> why would there be a precipitate in the tank if there isn't any in the original concentrated solution from the bottle?


sorry that wasn't clear...

why would there be a precipitate in the tank if there isn't any _precipitate_ in the original concentrated solution from the bottle? afterall, isn't the the concentration in the bottle many times that of a dosed tank?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Really not sure. But I assume that the water used in the Flourish solution in the bottle is distilled/RO and doesn't have a KH of 15...


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Thank you very much for providing this information!

I did not know there was so little Fe in Flourish and so I was not using Flourish Iron. I guess that explains why I can't get my plants really red.

I'll try to get some Flourish Iron and I'll let you know if that makes any difference.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> why would there be a precipitate in the tank if there isn't any precipitate in the original concentrated solution from the bottle? afterall, isn't the the concentration in the bottle many times that of a dosed tank?


In tanks with high kh's what causes the precipitate is the carbonate in the water. The iron in the Flourish bottle is a concentrated solution prepared in pure (distilled) water.


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## Gumby (Aug 1, 2005)

JerseyScape said:


> I use the the Iron, Flourish and Excel at the same time. The only draw back is that I need to trim my tank every 2-3 days. (I do get cloudiness sometimes)


Really? If I mix Excel and Flourish Fe I get a precip every time. This is in super soft low KH water, mind you.


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

adin said:


> why would there be a precipitate in the tank if there isn't any _precipitate_ in the original concentrated solution from the bottle? afterall, isn't the the concentration in the bottle many times that of a dosed tank?


The solution in the bottle is most likely at a very low pH with no carbonates or phosphates in solution (mixed with distilled or ultrafiltered water). It seems to be reacting with one of those two. Also our tanks are at a much higher redox potential relative to the fert solution.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I keep thinking that the chelator must have something to do with it, given that:

- Apparently TMG doesn't precipitate as easily in high KH water (haven't tested this yet).
- Gluconate is supposed to be a "weaker" chelator.

So in a high KH environment, the weaker chelator releases the Fe which then precipitates. The chelator in TMG on the other hand, which is a "stronger" chelator, doesn't release the Fe, hence no precipitate...

Does that theory make any sense?

Anyone know if carbonates have a tendency to break the chelator bonds?


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## Plattykins (Apr 3, 2005)

I don't often see Flourish, Trace or Excel on the shelf around here, so I picked up some Flourish when I finally saw it available. Then, I purchased some items online and saw Trace was available and bought that too. As it happened, I meant to try Excel, but bought the Trace by mistake. I had only used the Flourish once by then, and I don't recall if there was cloudiness as a result. Once the Trace arrived, I decided to try it anyway (with the Flourish) and I find that I get a cloudiness, but only in one tank. I don't know yet what is different in that tank, compared to the others, as far as the water column is concerned. I think I need a couple of different test kits to find out (phosphate?). I only have pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, along w/KH and GH. The comment about having to absorb the iron through the roots rang a bell from one time when I dosed tablets under the gravel and the cloudiness occurred, as a result. At any rate, I just took a moment to look at what is actually in both the Flourish and the Trace. Seeing that all but two of the trace elements in Trace are also included in Flourish, made me wonder if I dosed more than was actually needed. I have never tested or had my water tested to see what it actually contains, but I know that without ferts, iron deficiencies show up in my plants. I am accustomed to using two ferts together to achieve the same effect as w/Flourish. Trying Trace together with Flourish is probably overkill, but I need to learn more about the products and my water, I think. I have called myself intermediate level experience in the past, because I've had planted tanks for awhile and have been fairly successful, albeit, more with the easy and low light plants. However, when it comes to things getting deeper into the chemistry of it, I think I should go back to beginner status. :doh:


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

JLudwig said:


> Unfortunately, no one knows if thats correct or not. What's the redox potential in our substrate? I haven't seen any data on this, or even the effects of chelated/versus non-chelated iron, so its an "educated" guess with a 50/50 shot of being correct  I have very reasonable levels of phosphate (can't be more than 2.0ppm assuming zero uptake) and 2 KH and I get this precipitation, that doesn't seem very high to me. I don't get this precipitation with TMG.
> 
> Jeff


This might be why I prefer TMG, the Flourishm even if I add lots, and I have, does not give the same results.

They should add more Fe to flourish.
More Mg to their SeaChem Eq, less K+.

They could also do a cocktail Fe mix with 60% gluconate and 40% DTPA.
That's what I would do.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Laith said:


> I keep thinking that the chelator must have something to do with it, given that:
> 
> - Apparently TMG doesn't precipitate as easily in high KH water (haven't tested this yet).
> - Gluconate is supposed to be a "weaker" chelator.
> ...


The pH optima for each chelator is different, the TMG is about 7.5, the gluconate was lower.

So the DTPA should do well in water's with higher KH.
I think that, rather than absolute pH (they type we have when we add CO2 gas and artifically lower pH) plays a role.

Flourish does not have much Fe so that can be supplemented easy enough with Flourish iron. We reported the effects of adding Fe back in 1996 in the club and I wrote about it in an article Steve Dixon and I put together.

. Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

I`m just looking for a little clarification. Quote from the Seachem site: Flourish™ is rich in gluconate iron, manganese, calcium, magnesium, potassium, inositol, choline B12, biotin, and other factors that have been determined to be beneficial to aquatic plants.

Apparently not so rich in iron.

So to reach .1 ppm I need 1ml per 10 gallons of water when using Flourish Iron right?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Seachem states that 5ml of Flourish Fe will add 0.2mg/l (ppm) of Fe in 200l of water.

200l of water is just under 53g

1ml of Flourish Fe will add 0.04mg/l in 53g.

Therefore, 1ml of Flourish in 10g of water will raise the Fe concentration by 0.212mg/l or ppm.

It's a bit confusing because Seachem's directions state to add 5ml per 200l to maintain 0.1mg/l of Fe. The keyword here is *maintain*. They are not saying that 5ml in 200l *adds* 0.1mg/l...

The above should be right assuming that Seachem's initial calculation is correct.

And of course assuming that my math isn't all screwed up!


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## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks Laith. I`m glad I`m now in the know but I defenately think Seachem`s gotta make that a little more clear.


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