# Setting up my 1st el Natural cube 8G (30L)



## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Hi, everyone!

I am happy to join this forum and very excited that soon I will also start my own Walstad's method aquarium!
Beautiful tanks from all over the World posted here, "Ecology of the planted aquarium" by D. Walstad, after all, many videos on YouTube (especially Foo the Flowerhorn's), assures me, that everything gonna be all right.
But some beginner's questions appear here and there, despite the fact I am not totally new to the hobby and had set up 70L tank for my parents and it is 5 years old already. It is simple low-tech tank with slow-growth plant such as microsoriums, anubias and some stem plants.









But I decided to set up NPT with the soil according to D.Walstad method.

1. First of all I had choosen a place where I can afford to place the tank. As I don't have too much free space the decision was made in favor of northern windowsill. I studied the Sun behavior during the day at the place and find out, that the tank will be receiving direct sunlight only during sunrise and early morning at maximum for 2-3 hours in July (from 5:30 am till 8:00 am approx.). In winter it will hardly be more than 30 minutes of direct sunlight.
And here are the first questions: Is northern window good decision for placing the tank? How should I manage my LED-light daylength - should I sum sunlight and LED-light times or I simply put LEDs to regimen 5 on, 4 off, 5 on with the start at 8 am?

2. Then I choose the tank I can surely place to the surface of windowsill. It will be 30L cube 30*30cm and with 35cm depth. No more to say here.

3. Third thing is light. And here starts my headache! So much options now available. I will definitely buy LED-light. But which one? I would simply go for 35-40 lumens per liter (as recommended in numerous articles about LED in aquariums) if there wasn't sunlight. Plus, I think non-direct light during the day will also inflict the tank more or less. Thus, it's very tough questions for me. I have few options and want to know your thoughts on which one will better fit my set up?
- Ptero Ray Mini 25 (850 lm/ 6500K)
- AquaLighter Slim (1010lm/ 5000-6500K)
- Chihiros C251 (1150 lm/ 8000K)
- Chihiros A2 301 (1400 lm)
- Ptero Ray (1700lm/6500K)
I am struggling with the choice for more than a month&#8230;
I understand, that it's hard to answer the questions without clarity about the plants that will be planted to the tank, so here they are!

4. Plants selected for start:
Bacopa monnieri
Limnophila aromatica
Ammania sp. «Bonsai»
Limnophila aquatica "Ambulia"
Ludwigia Ovalis
Rotala macrandra "Green"

Staurogyne repens
Eriocaulon sp Vietnam

Cryptocoryne wendtii «Tropica»
Cryptocoryne parva

Echinodorus ozelot mini
Echinodorus parviflorus tropica

I hope there are enough rooted plants to prevent too anaerobic substrate.

5. Our local brands of potting soil seems always have some chemical fertilizers and as for me the numbers are too high for aquarium. And as I live 200 meters from the forest I decided to dig some topsoil there.
Have some photos of the process and want to share them with you.








You can see the place I gathered the topsoil and the sooil itself















My buddy watching me








After I had removed roots and large debris, the soil is light and airy with a lot of sand in it, I am also sure it has some organics to decompose. Maybe I should add some clay to it or any source of Ca to slowly rise the water hardness? What do you think?

6. Some words about water. My tap water is: Ph8.5, Gh 9, Kh 3.

So, this is it by now. As soon as I will pick up the light, I will slowly start my journey to the NPT world. Greetings from Ukraine to everyone who had read this long post and I am sorry for my English. I've tried my best! Thank you!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Welcome to APC! I really enjoyed your description of your search for good soil, because I have done that several times. The last time was when I was living in a rented house, and I "explored" the big back yard, the planted beds, the soil around the bushes and trees, etc. I ended up getting scoops of dirt from several places and mixing them to get enough for my tank. It worked very well for me! And, I didn't have a bug bugging me as I did my exploring.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

It looks so beautiful where you live! What a great excuse to go for a walk in the woods. Your English is great!


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

hoppycalif said:


> I ended up getting scoops of dirt from several places and mixing them to get enough for my tank. It worked very well for me!


Your positive experience inspires me even more and make me more optimistic about this topsoil! This weekend I'll go fishing, so maybe I'll mix the dirt I have with some clay or another kind of soil (I think about dirt from mole hole) if I will find it.



hoppycalif said:


> And, I didn't have a bug bugging me as I did my exploring.


That bug is pretty big, you know, and make scratchy noise if you disturb it!



Karen in San Jose said:


> It looks so beautiful where you live! What a great excuse to go for a walk in the woods.


Ashamed to say, but this is the first time I walked this forest for last 3 years. With this everyday routine and hurry we can easily forget about beauty of the nature around us. We forget sometimes to enjoy these little things.

And! At last I think I have found the lighting solution! None of that four lighters - it's another one from our local brand. It has next characteristics:
24 white diodes 6500K, 6 red diodes (620-620nm),3 blue (455-470nm), 3 cyan (520-525nm)
It gives 1450 lm, CRI>90, and with build in dimmer so I can lower intensity If I will need it.

The question is, how long should I leave the lights on given that direct sunlight will occasionally fall on the aquarium?


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

So. A little update on my preparations. I had collected more soil from another place. It is more clay like. I think I will mix two kinds of soils I have for now. All items I need to start the tank are ordered, so I will set up the tank next weekend. So excited!

I have done a bottle test for the dirt. The results are confusing. The methodology for the test was taken from "will this soil work" thread. After 30 sec from the start ~50% was land on the bottom of the bottle. It's sand I guess. Then after 2 minutes I didn't see too much difference. Maybe 5% more. After two hours the soil level was higher than when it was dry (100%) by ~25%. There are also some organic particles floating. So I don't know if I should be happy with the soil I have?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

That’s good that the soil expanded. Some clay will expand in water as well as dry organics. This soil will have high CEC, ability to absorb nutrients for plants.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

LeTort said:


> So. A little update on my preparations. I had collected more soil from another place. It is more clay like. I think I will mix two kinds of soils I have for now. All items I need to start the tank are ordered, so I will set up the tank next weekend. So excited!
> 
> I have done a bottle test for the dirt. The results are confusing. The methodology for the test was taken from "will this soil work" thread. After 30 sec from the start ~50% was land on the bottom of the bottle. It's sand I guess. Then after 2 minutes I didn't see too much difference. Maybe 5% more. After two hours the soil level was higher than when it was dry (100%) by ~25%. There are also some organic particles floating. So I don't know if I should be happy with the soil I have?


It sounds like you just shook up the soil with water and then waited for things to settle out. That's the wrong way to do it. Some particles will never settle. This method doesn't work in bottles any more than it does in setting up the tank. The irony here is that the smaller the particles, the more surface area and potentially better substrate for plants. Bits of floating organic matter will generate CO2 for plants.

Description (below) is in my book, p. 138.

You put a 1" (2.5 cm) layer of dry soil into a bottle and cover it with 1/2" (~1 cm) of gravel or sand. Then, you CAREFULLY add water so that it does not disturb the soil layer. I cover the gravel layer with a piece of Al foil so that the gravel layer is not disturbed. Sometimes it helps to use a kitchen funnel to aim the water flow to where it will create the least disturbance.

A "bottle test" mimics what you do in setting up a tank with soil, so you should be very glad you did the bottle test before setting up your tank!! 

Here's pictures of bottle test I used for recent experiment with different soil coverings. The water should be fairly clear. Some soils have no clay and are crystal clear in bottle test. Others have clay and you might have to do a couple water change to get out cloudiness. I let the bottle sit overnight. Usually, the water becomes more clear over time. If it becomes _more_ cloudy, then you've got a problem soil (e.g., saline soil) that is best to avoid.

Sometimes the soil particles will "swell up" like yours did. A low density soil is not bad, but you might want to soak the soil in water beforehand and compress it to squeeze out trapped air pockets. You could put wet soil into a bucket and put a plate plus brick over soil surface. That way, when you put the "squeezed" soil into the tank, it will be less likely to float and your plants will hold down better.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Hello! And thank you, Diana, for your reply!

Yes, I did the 'bottle' test in the way you discribed. I found this method here on APC (https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com...itable-soils-walstad-method-6.html#post639268), and I thought it is correct, because I cant find any criticism of it. In other side Michael said he did in similar way.

Well, at least now I know the composition of the soil I am going to use in my tank and can see it is a good option.

Yeah, that would be a disaster if I would set up the tank just the way I did the 'bottle' test  But of course I was going to set up the tank like you discribed in your book.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I hope you are not referring to this post by Diana K. in the linked thread. Looks like I didn't catch it in time to add my criticism. She writes:

"Shake. If the soil soaks up all the water add more. Shake some more. And some more. About the time your arm falls off set the jar down."

Misguided advice and certainly not mine. In my bottle tests and tank setups, there is no such shaking. Please understand that the soil you buy in a bag or dig up will change over time once it is in the tank. Soil bacteria bind clay particles and organic matter that would ordinarily cloud the water. The bacteria form sticky polysaccharide biofilms that hold the soil particles together (my book, pp. 69-71). Farmers call this "crumb structure," a desirable quality for growing crops. 

Bottom Line: You add the soil to your tank respectfully. No shaking. You cover it with gravel to keep it from clouding the water. Over time, the soil bacteria spin their biofilms to glue the soil particles together. Then, even when you disturb the soil underlayer, there will very little cloudiness.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Misguided advice and certainly not mine. In my bottle tests and tank setups, there is no such shaking. Please understand that the soil you buy in a bag or dig up will change over time once it is in the tank. Soil bacteria bind clay particles and organic matter that would ordinarily cloud the water. The bacteria form sticky polysaccharide biofilms that hold the soil particles together (my book, pp. 69-71). Farmers call this "crumb structure," a desirable quality for growing crops.
> 
> Bottom Line: You add the soil to your tank respectfully. No shaking. You cover it with gravel to keep it from clouding the water. Over time, the soil bacteria spin their biofilms to glue the soil particles together. Then, even when you disturb the soil underlayer, there will very little cloudiness.


My problem was that I misunderstood the essence of the bottle test. I assumed that it was carried out to determine the quality of the composition of the soil or something like that (and therefore it requires such strange and unnatural actions as shaking the substrate), and not a simulation of setting up a tank. Now I understand that I was mistaken about this. Today my gravel will be delivered and I will try to redo the bottle test.

Also, I started to reread the substrate section of the book last night, and I see that I missed some points about changes in the submerged substrate over time.


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## Fraxinus (Jul 16, 2020)

The soil test with the shaking is definitely a thing though. We did something similar in my introductory soil science class in undergrad and a similar procedure is described here. For this test, the point of the shaking is to destroy the soil structure so you can see how much you have of each particle type (sand, silt, clay).

This test has slightly different aims than the one DWalst has laid out in the book, but it's not some completely random, made up thing.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

LeTort said:


> Also, I started to reread the substrate section of the book last night, and I see that I missed some points about changes in the submerged substrate over time.


I applaud you for going back to the original information source, rather than depending on "Internet/YouTube/forums/etc.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

That was the longest week for sure. At last it was friday evening and I could start my journey. All the stuff were carefully gethered, plants arive just on time. So beautifull plants!














The assortment was changed a bit. Final compositioon is:
Bacopa monnieri
Limnophila aromatica mini
Ammania sp. «Bonsai»
Ludwigia Ovalis
Rotala macrandra "Green"
Gratiola aurea
Limnophilia Vietnam mini
Rotala sр. "Colorata"
Rotala Bangladesh

Bolbitis sp. from Bali
Bucephalandra sp. Kalimantan

Staurogyne repens
Eriocaulon sp Vietnam

Cryptocoryne lucens
Cryptocoryne parva
Cryptocoryne Cordata siamensis

Echinodorus Parviflorus tropica
Echinodorus Digital art

Pistia

It was difficult to restrain myself and not plant all f them on the first day!
But I strictly followed the book and put a 3 cm of soil, add some water and remove the bubbles, than I covered it with 3 cm of gravel. Then I added ~3 inches of dechlorinated tap watter, poked the gravel a little bit to remove bubbles and left the tank for the night.
I also decided not to put the tank on the windowsill because it was not convenient to observe it.














Sorry for images, I don't know how to turn off autorotation on the forum


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Next day my wife told me that the lighting from the tank is too bright so we decided to move the tank to another room where it will not disturb us too much. Another reason to move the tank was my cat... wich jump on the lid in the night. I was woried the cat can make some problems sooner or later.

I also removed all the water from the aquarium. The transfer was succesfull, nothing was disturbed and finally I put some green to the tank!

I had a "planting plan", so I planted all the plants quite fast.
One thing went a bit wrong - I had miscalculated the water volume I needed, so I filled only the 3/4 of the tank.
After all my manipulations water was clean. I set the lighting to 80% (about 1150 lm). I also set the regimen with siesta 5-4-5. Hope I didn't make mistakes with this tank set up!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It looks like a wonderful start with a beautiful assortment of healthy plants. 

I wish you good luck!


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Thank you, Diana! I tried to combine my enthusiasm and meticulousness, and of course your experience while I was setting up the tank.
A little update. Third day of my tank. Water beginning to look a bit cloudy, but I think it is okay for this period. Both of Echinodorus start to grow new leaves, as well as C. Lucens and Eriocaluron. Limnofila Aromatica rise the "head" to the "sun" and also show me some new violet leaves.
I have made water tests. The parameters are:
pH 8.0
GH 12
Kh 5
NH3/4 0mg/l
NO2 0.05mg/l
NO3 10mg/l
PO4 0.05 mg/l
I am pretty happy with water parameters so I decided to put 1st livestock to the tank - 7 wild shrimps. It seems they are loving their new home.
PS. Photos from my wife's phone are much better.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Very nice to look at. You can see the stem plants actually reaching up to the light.

Good job!


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Hi there everyone.
It's been a week since the start of the cube. The water is still a little bit cloudy, I can definitely see tiny white moving dots in the water column, especially close to the glass. I think it may be infusoria or something like that, I wish I had a microscope😄
By the end of the week I started to see algaes: green hair algae, and another green algae I don't know its name. It is more algaes closer to the bottom, and also on the glass. You can see it on the photos.

As for the plants, they are growing. Not as fast as I wish, but are growing. Both ech. grew 3 to 4 new leaves, but they are wider and smaller then the older ones. Eriocaluron also started 3 new leaves during 2 days. All crypts are stalling, I don't know why. Stem plants... Some are growing, some aren't. Bacopa didn't show any grow at all. Rotala Bangladesh and coloratta are the best growing as for me. Some leaves of staurogyne repens has melted, some are covered by algae, but there are also new leaves, green and healthy. 

I made water tests today and here is what I have got:
PH 8.0
GH 14
Kh 6

NH3/4 0,15 mg/l
NO2 0,3 mg/l
NO3 5 mg/l
PO4 0,05 mg/l
As for hardeness I think it is higher then after the start because there is some calcium in the soil (dolomite or chalk). I didn't bother to remove every of it. NO2 is higher then I expected because I use natural, not too rich soil. But anyway, I did 30% water change. Will see tomorrow if that helps.

I don't know if my results are ok for 1 week old npt and should I start worrying about that algaes?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think it looks wonderful for a one-week-old NPT. Keep doing what you are doing.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> I think it looks wonderful for a one-week-old NPT. Keep doing what you are doing.


Do you mean not to interfere with the natural order of things? Because I am doing exactly that thing


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Third week of my set up. Green algaes have spread a lot. I can see green hair algae almost on every surface. I think I will try to remove them with the toothbrush tomorrow and then will do the 2nd water change.
I also continue to register high NO2 at 0,3 mg/l and also low NO3 = 5mg/l. This makes me think that I have missed something with my tank. Other parameters are stable. pH 8, GH 14, KH 7.
I am not happy with my cripts, the are stalling. Echinodoruses are doing well. Their new leaves are big and healthy.
Some of stem plants doing not good. Rotala macrandra's leaves covered with dark spots. No growth from limnofila Aromatica and bacopa. Ludwigia started to grow. The best growers of stem plants are r. Colorata and r. Bangladesh. I tried to trim pair of stems that has reached water surface just to see how the react to trimming. 
Leaves of pistia also becoming yellow, which I think is not a good sign. 
Maybe I should change something? Should I lower the intensity of light which is 1150 lm now? Should I do omething else? What do that spots on leaves mean?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think your tank has typical and temporary problems of a new setup. Keep doing manual algae removal and water changes. Don't expect all plant species to do well.

Good luck!


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Hello everyone. I have found something strange in my tank. It looks like brown or orange core near 1mm diameter (like little seed) with white short threads around. That thing is hanging without any motion. I can't identify what it is, I hope someone here can help.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

I have paid more attention to water column and found whole new world. I have never seen such a variety of creatures in the tank. Some bigger and smaller white dots, worms, and that wired colonies I discovered yesterday. Now on the other side of tank I managed to film them. And it can actually move!!! That's scary. The movement is at 38 sec.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Fish are going to love being in this tank. Lots of live food!


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

I hope those worms are harmless. And those furry creatures are colonies of infusoria sp. Maybe Stentor, at least it looks like that. I don't know what fish I will add, still thinking. But! Today new shrimps and snails will arrive. Hope amanos and nerities will help me to remove algaes.


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## zahtar (Sep 29, 2019)

Very nice tank, looks very interesting and promising! Don't worry about the crypts, they might be growing slow, but their roots will expand in the substrate and eventually you'll see more coming out the gravel in parts of the tank you didn't expect! 

The nerite and the amanos will definitely help with some types of algae. Maybe not all, as in my case they didn't clear the green hair algae, but nothing else has shown up.

Regarding the fish you mentioned, I introduced a male platy last week in my tank. I chose a platy because my water is alkaline and hard (very similar values to yours) and because of the small volume (15L, half than yours). The result was seeing him hunt down every little creature like those you mentioned in post #24. He cleared all of them in less than 24hours! Now I have problems feeding my shrimp because he seems to really like shrimp food. He started emptying the shrimp feeding disk in seconds. Today I put the shrimp sticks between the carpet plant stems, but he easily and happily found and ate them again. It seems from now on my shrimp will have to suffice with algae... I read platies might also eat some algae but I have not seen him do anything like this yet. All in all he is a nice fish, playful, annoying some red cherries from time to time but never actually attacking them. You could look them up as an option, I'd be really interested to what kind of fish more experienced members would suggest.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

It's been months and a half since I've started my tank, lot of thing have happened during the period.

First of all I was concerned about algaes, which was growing really fast. There was a period when GHA developed a net and my shrimps could hardly swam through it. By the end of the August I added 4 amanos, 4 nerities and a colony of RCS. I can say that in a week algaes were defeated. Until now I can hardly see algaes, may be some small amount on the glass.

But after I have added more livestocks to the tank, another bacterial bloom came. The water became cloudy. I tried to do some water changes, but it didn't help. Now the water is remaining cloudy and I don't know wether I need to do water change, or I should wait until the water became clean. I am not sure, but maybe it's not bacterial, maybe it's also algae

Water chemistry is stable, remaining pretty much same as at the start.

As you remember, I had they infusoria on the glass. At the beginning of the September they all had gone in one day. Instead of them new creatures appeared. I identify them as ostracods. There were lots of them and they even started to compete for food with shrimps. To cut the population of ostracods I decided it's time to add fish to the tank. It was hard choice, I was afraid to add fish that can potentially do harm to shrimps (which already had given birth to new generation!). I ended up getting 6 guppies. The circle had locked, because my first aquarium fish, 20 years ago when I was a child was guppies.

Guppies started to chew ostracods, but in our pet market I think they had never seen life food, so they didn't eat ostracods, they spit them out. But anyway, next morning there were zero ostracods in the tank. Only yesterday night I had found them in large amount, when the light was off. I think they are hiding in a gravel now.

As for plants, they are all growing well. Only bacopa didn't. Limnofila Aromatica shown about 6 new stems! And rotala Bangladesh is perfect for me, it triple the mass, if not more. I am happy with plants. Crypts after 1 month started to grow, especially lucens. It has 4 new leaves.
I also added 2 chola cactuses for shrimps and they love it! 

So the only thing that is bothering me is water cloudiness. I hope for your advice here, what should I do with that? I also added photo without lights.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

All this nice tank needs is a little tweaking, nothing major.

How long do you leave the lights on per day? If you've got lights on all day, that could be a problem, especially with LED lights, which are much more intense than the old lighting systems

In my book's 2019/2020  revision, I recommend lights on 4 hours in the morning, a midday Siesta of 2-4 hours (no light or very dim light), then lights on 4-5 hours in the late afternoon/evening. (Without a Siesta, CO2 becomes scarce and algae has a CO2 advantage over plants all afternoon long.)

Revision also explains why.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> In my book's 2019/2020  revision, I recommend lights on 4 hours in the morning, a midday Siesta of 2-4 hours (no light or very dim light), then lights on 4-5 hours in the late afternoon/evening. (Without a Siesta, CO2 becomes scarce and algae has a CO2 advantage over plants all afternoon long.)
> 
> Revision also explains why.


To be honest I have re-read this revision more than 5 times. The lighting question was my biggest concern while I was preparing to start the aquarium. As I wrote in one of my previous post here, I have the siesta regimen 5-4-5. The intensity of light is 1150lm. Today I lowered the light to minimum at ~700lm. I am afraid of euglena or chlorella. Because I have never face them before.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Another experiment in the works... Sometimes we just have to keep making adjustments to get to the "sweet spot."


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

I don't know if I need to do a water change. There are two different informations about that and they are opposite.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sometimes GWA will just go away on its own. In a situation like this, I generally choose the path requiring the least amount of work.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Following the "all natural" philosophy of NPT, I bought colony of daphnia moina! Tomorrow I will check the color of this fleas. If it will turns green, then the reason of cloudy water is GWA😄
The only reason of my sadness is my dumb guppies. They don't understand that this is live food🤦‍♂️


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good luck with the Daphnia. I tried many times to grow natural populations in tank with green water, and had no luck. Meanwhile, they grow fine out in the pond.

Guppies don't seem to eat the big Daphnia, but they do like and will eat the little daphnia.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Poor daphnias. Guppies had destroyed it in 2 days. Instincts. 

Decreasing the intensity of the light also hadn't worked. Probably today I'll do water tests and see if I need to do water change. The last was 2 weeks ago.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Be patient. Changes don't happen overnight.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

So, its 10 weeks from the start now and i think I can post an update here.

As I wrote before, GWA started to spread. I tried another black-out period, but the things didn`t change. Than I had used UW-sterilizer. After 4 days, the water was crystal clear and transparent. So far, I tweaked a bit the length of photoperiod to 4-4-4 with siesta regimen. Also, light intensity was lowered to 870 lm. I`ll see if it's enough for plant health.
Also I added heater, because as autumn came, temperature of water column dropped to +21 C.

Rotala bangladesh look a little bit messy now, maybe I should cut it near the gravel and re-plant some stems?

Unfortunately, 2 guppies somehow jumped out of the tank despite the lid while UW-sterilizer was activated, so it’s only 3 of them left. Now I am thinking of buying a school of Celestial pearl danios to bring some action to the tank

There are some little holes in some old leaves here and there, probably it’s because of 2 black-out periods previously. But I will continue to observe.

So far, I am happy with this tank. My wife is excited about baby ramshorn snails appears in the tank. She calls them "Hitchcock" cuz they hitchhiked to our tank


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Very nice tank! Pleasure to look at.

I like people that give nicknames to snails!


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Hello everyone! 
I want to make another update and ask for advice. 
It’s almost 4 month from the start of the tank. I’ve started to observe some problems with stem plants.
First plant that didn’t make it was rotala green. It dropped the leaves off, so I had taken it away and plant another sword plant instead. Next was rotala colorata. It’s leaves became small, the older ones also dropped off. And whic is more surprising, rotala Bangladesh also doing bad, though it was one of the best growers for all this months.
At last, limnophila aromatica is showing me the same symptoms. 
I am feeling desperate. It looks like I’ve missed something. And I hope it’s not too late to fix the problem.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Stem plants need free CO2 more that rosette plants (Swordplants).

I would feed your fish more and/or increase the fish load. Additional fishfood increases the organic matter that bacteria will convert to CO2 for plants.

Make sure that you're not doing unnecessary tank cleaning or aerating the tank. Every water change removes DOC that bacteria will convert to CO2. Slow down (or stop completely) any water movement or air bubbling; both degas precious CO2 from the water.

In the past, you had algae problems from soil leaching of excess nutrients. Now, you need to conserve CO2 and replenish the soil's depleted organic matter with increased fishfood. You've got nice overall plant growth and could certainly add more critters to this tank.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Thank you very much for your help! 
Predicting co2 deficit I have already increased the population of the tank. 3 weeks ago I`ve add 15 celestial pearl danios. And there are a lot of snails now!) I am feeding generously with both fish flakes and frozen fishfood. I also don`t use aerating devices. I understand that I need to conserve CO2 and I have made some changes, as you can see. But somehow all this doesn`t work.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Some stem plants are difficult to grow in a low tech tank. You’ve chosen the difficult ones, I think. Usually they’ll need more light and co2. Try hydrophila difformis And pearl weed.

Your stems grew well initially but it looks like the soil has generated less co2 since which happens. The organics are being used up over time. In my tank, I’ve started injecting co2 , not much, around 15-20ppm.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Stem plants are tricky in an NPT. Bacopa caroliniana and H. difformis are holding their own with the rosette plants in my tanks. 

If you want to raise all plant species, an NPT (no CO2 injection) may not be very satisfying. 

I just go with the plant species that do well under the conditions that I provide. My only criteria is they need to grow.  Sometimes, one can cater to the needs of delicate plants by not pitting them against highly competitive plants. That means putting them in their own tank.

In my opinion, there are more than enough aquatic plant species that will do well with a soil-containing substrate, decent lighting, and moderately hard water.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Another stem you might try is Creeping Jenny (Lymisachia nummularia...hopefully I spelled that correctly). I have that in a moderate light low-tech doing really well, and in a small very-low-light low tech also doing well (just very slow growth). It can even tolerate some salt (found out while treating a Betta for ich), up to a TBS per gallon or more. Good hardy and attractive stem.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Over last week all my lymnofila and Ludwigia ovalis died








I ordered ludwigia repens "red", bacopa Carolina, cabomba and that hard for pronunciation Lysimachia nummularia. Will receive new plants in 2 days. Hope they will do better.

Good news for me - now I have 3 guppy fries and bunch of shrimplets. One of them is surprisingly black! My little Darth Vader


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

So I have replanted my tank with new plants. I am happy with the new look. I think it’s even better now.
But things can’t be perfect. I’ve got another bacterial bloom. I don’t know, maybe it’s because my old plants were rotting, and also there was not much healthy plants to maintain the balance. But I hope this bloom will end soon with new healthy plants, which are more hardy.
I also a little bit concerned about my shrimps. Most of them are having “frosty” like colonies on their heads. The internet says it’s not dangerous, but I am still worrying if I need to do something. I will add some photos as well.
PS. And another generation of shrimplets!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Your shrimps are being attacked by parasites. I would say it's dangerous. Not sure why the 'internet' says otherwise 

Try a salt dip on the affected shrimps.


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## zahtar (Sep 29, 2019)

Really like the way that your tank evolves, thumbs up for being meticulous on the details and the results!

Regarding the parasites, salt dips have helped with a case of parasite I had in the past (namely Scutariella Japonica). A salt dip of about 30 seconds removes the parasites but not the eggs, so you might want to observe them for a few weeks, possibly repeat the treatment. A magnifying glass helps a lot 

Besides help from the forum members, other source of information I used was:

https://aquariumbreeder.com/understanding-dwarf-shrimp-diseases-and-parasites/

and






The first website is of a person that often refers to scientific papers as well as shrimp breeders, instead of repeating word on the internet. So I guess his input is valid. The person on the video, Rachel O'Leary, is an experienced aquarist, I have read numerous people referring to her opinion on matters. The advice that these two persons give are similar, so I chose to follow it, with success. You might want to check them during your research.

Good luck!

PS: According to youtuber Mark (Marks shrimp tanks) when trying to catch shrimp with a shrimpnet, *do no try to catch them*! Put the net gently next to them and they will probably go inside to explore! I tried this with some shrimp I adopted recently and it works if you manage not to scare them! Absolutely loved that trick to remove them from the bag, hopefully it could work in a densely planted tank


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

Thx for help, I am definitely going to treat my shrimps this week.

And believe me or not, before I had planted new stem plants in my tank, I`ve found some strange creature on the glass, yesterday I`ve found another one. I wasn`t able to make the photo, because my CPDs have eaten them very fast... I think that was snail leech!
I have no words. I have never thought I would have so many uninvited "guests" in my tank...


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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

You also may need to consider what kind of extra bioload you want to add. Fish require fish food that is usually richer in N and P, while snails and shrimp instead feed mainly on decaying plant matter that is usually richer in complex Carbon compounds. So if you want to increase the CO2 production in your tank without increasing the other nutrients a lot, then go for decaying leaves and stems and whatever eats them.


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

I can’t believe it is almost half a year since I have established my first el natural tank!

I think I can just sit down and enjoy the harmony of this little underwater world.
New plants are doing good. I’ve trimmed bacopa and cabomba yesterday. My tank survived another bacterial/gwa bloom, but this time the system cleared water without any help. Now the water is clear as a tear.
Shrimps are doing good, there are no more parasites on them. 
Those 3 guppy fry grown up and now transferred from 3l jar to community tank. I think all of them are females!
And first time ever I am in the hobby, I have underwater flower!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

What a pleasure to see your tank and report of success. Very nice! 

It will be interesting to see how the bloom turns out. A little world all of its own...


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## LeTort (Apr 15, 2019)

This is amazing!


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