# Question about RENA Canister Filter



## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

I just got my RENA Filstar XP1 for my new project and yesterday that I was reading instruction for it as I want to prepare the setup and instalation for it, I found out in the manual that the filter need to be to a minimum of 21" below water line. Due that my project is an aquarium integrated into a bar that I am building, this minimum distance below water line can't be reach at all. 
Need anyone knows that this will affect functionality and in which way? is there something I can do to avoid troubles if there is going to be one?

Thanks for your advice. Here is a pic of the " aquarium stand" that I am building.


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## trackhazard (Sep 20, 2006)

Most canister filters use gravity to help siphon water into the canisters then use the outlet pump to pump the water back in. This is mainly due to the fact that the inlet and outlets are at the very top of the tank. The minimum height allows for optimum pump performance. Otherwise, the pump will have to struggle to get water into the tank. In your situation, the filter may not work very efficiently and passthrough may be low. The stress may even burn out your filter prematurely.

Eheim Classics don't suffer from this as the inlet is at the bottom and the outlet is at the top. My guess is that the difference in heights is enough to overcome the siphon issue when both inlet and outlets are placed on the same level. This may be something you want to look into.

-Charlie


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You could install a powerhead in the tank with the outlet going to the XP1 filter, as long as the powerhead produces about the same flow rate as the XP1 is supposed to. I know canister filters are not designed to suck water in, just to push water out. It would also be possible to install an external booster pump in the filter inlet line. The added cost might be enough to switch to an Eheim, but only if you can verify that the Eheim doesn't need that much head height on the suction side.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Yesterday I was looking at how much height difference will I have for the Canister and my estimation is that I will have the top of the filter about 13" maybe 14" below water line as max, this is still bellow the 21" that equipment required as minimum. I may also Open a hole to get the filter floor level but I only gain another 4" more. Do you think that operating the filter with only 14 to 18" may affect it?


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Here is a picture showing were I was planning to install the filter (Black Circule), I may open the floor in the furniture to lower it anothe 4" but this will provide only 18" from top of the filter to water line.


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## NoSvOrAx (Nov 11, 2006)

Thats probably ok. It just may be harder to prime.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I have a Fluval 105 and it sits right next to a 20long with maybe 2" of difference between the water level and the top of the filter.

It has been running for a year strong and sometimes if I am careless, the water level gets an inch or two low and is even under the top of the filter.

It might not be ideal, but it does work.

The Rena will be a bitch to prime like that, you will have to submerge everything and be really careful to try to get the max amount of water in the lines so when you open the valve, hopefully it will siphon.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I wonder if a canister filter would work if it were horizontal instead of vertical?


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

It might not be as good for bio if all the media is weighing down and the water might tend to flow on top of it?


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Thank you Guys. I hope it work, anyway I just get it into API website and send them an email about it. let see what they say.

I am hoping only having a problem to prime it (hopefully will be only that) the good thing about it is if prime will be the problem it will be to a counter level with a beer to the side, so that will make easier to deal with :heh:

I just hope not to receive a "It will burn" email from API as I will have to return it an probably change it for a EHEIM, by the way I already look at EHEIM website and there is nothing there specifying Mounting heigth, I will probably email them too if I get a NO answer email from API. I will post the answer


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## Linda (Mar 3, 2006)

i have a rena xp 2 that is not lower than the tank. the 40 gal tank is actually floor level and the filter is on the floor as well. it works great. i have never had any problems and it has been like this for over a year. these are great filters for what you pay for them. i have an ehiem 2213 and in comparing, the renas have way more options and are way easier to maintain than the ehiem. however if you are looking for endurance i know the ehiems are the best buy. (i think mine is almost 20 years old) where as my renas are about 2 1/2 years.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Thank you Linda. You have make my day with your post! NOw at least I know it will work with no critical issues. Thank you very much for your answer. I am still waiting for an answer from the manufacturer anyway to review what they say, I will post this information here as soon as I get it.


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## Linda (Mar 3, 2006)

priming may be your only issue, however to fix this all i do is when i clean my filter i just fill it in the sink and overflow excess water then it doesn't need to be primed just make sure all the clamps are on the tubes as tight as you can get them so no air can leak into the filter. i then just hook up my filter and close it and plug it in. these filters are very good filters for what you pay for them and i have never had any problems with any of mine and i have 2 xp2s and one xp3. even when the hydro goes out they always start up without any problems. the only small problem i had was with an air stone and some air got into the filter (it was too close to the filter intake) but the filter kept going and i just moved the air stone further away to prevent this. i wouldn't worry if i were you glad to be of help!


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Finally, I got an answer from the manufacturer about the use of the filter for my project and they said no, return it and use a HOB. Based on Linda experience I certainly going to try it in my project as functioning it will bring a lot of advantages in my project.

Here is API answer



> Thank you very much for contacting us regarding our products. All of your comments and questions are valuable. We use your feedback to create the most effective line of aquarium and pond products available.
> 
> Arnoldo you will want to return the unit because it will not maintain its prime if it is not the minimum 24 inches below the water level in the aquarium. I am sorry that the filter will not be effective in your situation but we do make a hang on the back filter called the smartfilter which may work well you should check this unit out.
> 
> ...


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## ngb2322 (Apr 9, 2008)

As long as the suction piece from the tank is higher than where the inlet to the canister is, then a gravity siphon (used by xP1) will work. Think about the old school gravel cleaners -- if you put the tube outside of your tank a bit higher in the air than the tube inside the tank, the siphon stops. But really close the point of stopping, the flow is still as strong as if you have the tube outside the tank on the floor. I have an xP3 and the height of that suction piece can be made lower in the tank or higher using the connector pieces. For your situation, I would make is as high as possible. Also, think about cutting a piece out of the floor of the bar to allow a couple of extra inches for the canister to sit even lower. Once that siphon starts, it will continue to do so until you stop the filter. Like previously mentioned, priming might take a little more finess, but I think it is doable. Also, one thing that affects a pump is inlet pressure. The height Rena specifies gives you the optimal inlet pressure for maximum outlet flow to your tank. Less inlet pressure or less head from a lower height difference between tank and filter equals less flow from your filter to the tank. If you want to use a canister, maybe try one with a bigger pump, like xP2 or xP3, although I am sure the xP1 will work to some degree. Hope that helps.

Nate


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

ngb2322 said:


> As long as the suction piece from the tank is higher than where the inlet to the canister is, then a gravity siphon (used by xP1) will work. Think about the old school gravel cleaners -- if you put the tube outside of your tank a bit higher in the air than the tube inside the tank, the siphon stops. But really close the point of stopping, the flow is still as strong as if you have the tube outside the tank on the floor. I have an xP3 and the height of that suction piece can be made lower in the tank or higher using the connector pieces. For your situation, I would make is as high as possible. Also, think about cutting a piece out of the floor of the bar to allow a couple of extra inches for the canister to sit even lower. Once that siphon starts, it will continue to do so until you stop the filter. Like previously mentioned, priming might take a little more finess, but I think it is doable. Also, one thing that affects a pump is inlet pressure. The height Rena specifies gives you the optimal inlet pressure for maximum outlet flow to your tank. Less inlet pressure or less head from a lower height difference between tank and filter equals less flow from your filter to the tank. If you want to use a canister, maybe try one with a bigger pump, like xP2 or xP3, although I am sure the xP1 will work to some degree. Hope that helps.
> 
> Nate


Thanks. All makes sense. I will try the xp1 that I already got and check how it works. I am thinking again about cutting out a piece of floor of the bar to have the canister floor level to help. You just ring bells for me about suction height, I will try to keep it higher than canister suction. Thanks again

I am very close to start working on the aquarium as the bar project is almost done, I am working on finishing now. Here is an update picture. Thanks for your help.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Great work. I sure would like something like that in my house


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

goalcreas said:


> Great work. I sure would like something like that in my house


Thanks. I hope it end all OK for the aquarium which will be last part of the project. Hopefully I will have it functional in a couple of week at most. I will open a new post with pictures.


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## wantabe23 (Apr 6, 2005)

Hey there Mulita- I have had an XP1 for about 2 1/2 years now, although I have not tried using it at these levels, it is not hard to find spare parts for. Recently mine began leaking out where the power cable goes into the pump housing, and this means that the rubber 0-rings needed to be replaced. No big deal though I bought some new seals and had an excuse to buy an Eheim Ecco which I absolutly love! 

All this is beside the point, the point being I learned to place the canister filter into a bin or container of some sort so that if and when it starts to leak you have a grace period instead of it going into the carpet for who knows how long.... well until you think "wow I am having to top off the tank a lot lately"

So being in a high volume traffic area of the house a simple water leak catcher might be a good idea.

by the way nice corner aquarium you have got there :yo:


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

wantabe23 said:


> Hey there Mulita- I have had an XP1 for about 2 1/2 years now, although I have not tried using it at these levels, it is not hard to find spare parts for. Recently mine began leaking out where the power cable goes into the pump housing, and this means that the rubber 0-rings needed to be replaced. No big deal though I bought some new seals and had an excuse to buy an Eheim Ecco which I absolutly love!
> 
> All this is beside the point, the point being I learned to place the canister filter into a bin or container of some sort so that if and when it starts to leak you have a grace period instead of it going into the carpet for who knows how long.... well until you think "wow I am having to top off the tank a lot lately"
> 
> ...


Good Point! that could be an issue about taking the filter to floor level by a hole in the bar, however kitchen is always a high traffic area so I think a leak will show up a basin under the bar, it could also a good idea to add some sort of indicator to show up if a leak appears.

Thanks for your comments about the aquarium, I hope to do a good job aquascaping it. It will certainly highlite the bar


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## ngb2322 (Apr 9, 2008)

that looks incredible! How long did it take you?


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

ngb2322 said:


> that looks incredible! How long did it take you?


Thank you! I've been working on it probably about 2.5 month, working a couple of hours after work, some days with some delay and some days I did nothing; some others stay very late, but thats the total, I say it will take me 3 month total to complete and finish the Bar Project including installation of the Beer tap and equipment, then I will start the Aquarium Set up. You will see pictures very soon.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

What do you plan to put in the aquarium? I think Discus or other larger fish would be the best use. Since it is located where looking at the tank close up will be difficult, the fish need to be bigger than Cardinal Tetra's, for example.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> What do you plan to put in the aquarium? I think Discus or other larger fish would be the best use. Since it is located where looking at the tank close up will be difficult, the fish need to be bigger than Cardinal Tetra's, for example.


Hoppy:
Youre right, actually that's the same opinion my wife has. I haven't decided in what species to have, but I was looking at Oscar & Koi Angel, I also looked at an Angel fish kind of Tiger looking (I dont know the name of the species but I like it). I really like smalls fishes as Neon and Arlequine Tetras anyway but if I decide for Oscar these are definetively out as Oscar are very aggresive as far as I know. I will surf to look at Discus as I dont know it, Any suggestion are very very welcome.

Hopefully, I wish to make a nice Aquascape as to "force" guests to knew down to watch it closely, I am sure some of them will...at least after having/getting a drink


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## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

FYI with a tank that low it will take a long time to do water changes since you have to work against gravity. Even with a Python it still takes me forever on my 29 gallon that's almost on the floor.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Heady said:


> FYI with a tank that low it will take a long time to do water changes since you have to work against gravity. Even with a Python it still takes me forever on my 29 gallon that's almost on the floor.


With a simple hard plumbed valve manifold you can use the filter to pump the water out of the tank. And, you use tap water pressure to refill it, so you can make this a pretty quick operation. See my DIY forum thread to see how I did this - too elaborate, but fun.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Heady said:


> FYI with a tank that low it will take a long time to do water changes since you have to work against gravity. Even with a Python it still takes me forever on my 29 gallon that's almost on the floor.


As hoppy already mentioned, he has a very nice project post in the DIY forum that I am planning to incorporate in a more simple version to allow water chances using the filter.

By the way I already search for discus and it is a beutiful fish, question, could discus share habitat with other species, if so which could be a good mate?


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

*It is working Now!*

Thank you all guys! I just started up the aquarium and The filter and Linda was right, The XP1 works great with no problem. I have also integrated a similar but simpler water plumbing as Hoppycalif project that will definitely help a lot for water changes, I will test it soon. the plumbing also help up to prim the filter with no issues, it started up to pump as soon as I plugged in. Thanks a lot for your help. I still have some work to do for my project, but this concern and worry is all gone. Thanks.

Here are some picture of the start up.

The aquascape I am pretending to do is kind of island effect help by reflexion in the aquarium with a open swimming area at front of it with white sand, hopefully for some discus (also recommended by hoppy).

Here are some pictures of it as I tried it an hour ago.

Filling up directly.









Fill up but clowdy









Water Plumbing. This is a simpler version of hoppy project. The valves are shown in "Normal Operation Position" very simple to check (All up). I also took the advise of making a hole for the Canister that helped a lot.









Cover to be used, I am stil working at it.( I am reviewing if I can cover the valve body just leaving the red handle exposed, It will make it look nicer for the furniture  )










So, Hopefully I will have the CO2 System setup together with the Kegarator already working within 2-3 weeks, and hopefully in 4-5 the aquarium completed. Thanks for your help.


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## YankyTexan (May 7, 2008)

Beautiful, well executed project. Is that "white sand" coral based? If it is it will effect the PH of your water. Be sure to take that into account when selecting the species of fish/plants you plan to place in the tank. Once again, very nice cuñado. Bueno bonito y barato.

Good luck.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

YankyTexan said:


> Beautiful, well executed project. Is that "white sand" coral based? If it is it will effect the PH of your water. Be sure to take that into account when selecting the species of fish/plants you plan to place in the tank. Once again, very nice cuñado. Bueno bonito y barato.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. I am not really sure about the sand, I will review it and take it in consideration, thanks for the advice.


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## ngb2322 (Apr 9, 2008)

Looks like its coming along well. Are you going to plant the "island"? I think it would look great with 1 or 2 melon swords in the very back (middle of the island) and some anubia nanas or other smaller foreground plant a bit farther in front, but still on the island as "underbrush". I agree with leaving the sandy area open for swimming/viewing.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

ngb2322 said:


> Looks like its coming along well. Are you going to plant the "island"? I think it would look great with 1 or 2 melon swords in the very back (middle of the island) and some anubia nanas or other smaller foreground plant a bit farther in front, but still on the island as "underbrush". I agree with leaving the sandy area open for swimming/viewing.


Yes! Of course it going to be planted. What I have in mind is exactly what you are describing, Taller plants on the center (Didiplis diandra, Swords, Ludwigia, I havent decide yet) and coming to front with smaller ones (Anubia nanas, Anubias Coffeefolia) ending up with Hemianthus callitrichoides at front, Some rocks and thin Driftwood all over


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

*Initial Setup*

Well, taking advantage of trimming and removing needed in my wall aquarium and having the new bar aquarium already cleared, I just started planting a few Swords, (2 Amazon, 1 Argentinus) a few Corkscrew Vallisneria (6 stems), Marsilea Crenata, Anubias Barteri (2 big rizomes), 2 stems of Star Grass and Dwarf Sagitaria (2)

Here are some pictures, a close up. Look how a few plants makes it up:










The reflex Effect is amplified even better looking at the aquarium standing up in front of the bar. Look at this shot, I can't wait to have some color on it.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 19, 2008)

mulita -

FANTASTIC! That is absolutely incredible looking! The only thing that I don't like about it is that if you are sitting at the bar you can't see it since it is at your feet.  I absolutely love the way that you integrated it into the bar curve though. 

Every once in a while, I run into a thread that truely inspires me. This is one of them. Great job!


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Every once in a while, I run into a thread that truely inspires me. This is one of them. Great job!


Thanks a lot for the compliment! I am really happy to what I done so far, Still need some work to finish it, but I am really happy with the look of the project already. I am still working at the interior plumbing area and I need to integrate the CO2 System that is also going to be use for beer pouring but so far so good , thanks again for your comments. I agree with you about not looking at the aquarium from sitting on the bar, but it does a great "arriving looking" to the furniture and I bet more than one is going to knee over to take a closer look even floor sitting with a beer to watch


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

This is an ideal tank for a household with little children in it. They can watch the fish, tap on the tank, and you don't need to worry about them getting into the fertilizers, CO2 and stuff under the tank. I say this from experience with grandchildren.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Hoppy:
You are very right about it. Look at my little kid (The true owner of the aquariums , I am just the installation/maintenance guy :mrgreen, he was so excited when he look at it once set up, so already got at least 2 persons sitting down to watch it, and as you mentioned he can tap at it and there is no danger for him to watch, plus I dont have to carry him as I need to do for his window wall aquarium when he wants to take a closer look.rayer:


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Upps. Missed the photo. here he is


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 19, 2008)

Please tell me that you took pictures of the build process while you were designing/making the bar and you are going to post it in a build journal. If you even remotely do anything like that, please PM me the link so I can subscribe to the thread. I am already subscribed to this one even though it is just a general question related thread. 

Edit: I personally wouldn't be too worried about being able to see the tank while sitting at the bar. I would probably park a couple of bean bags on the floor and just chill with a beer and watch the fish from there. I can't get over how awesome this setup looks. Absolutely gorgeous!


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Please tell me that you took pictures of the build process while you were designing/making the bar and you are going to post it in a build journal. If you even remotely do anything like that, please PM me the link so I can subscribe to the thread. I am already subscribed to this one even though it is just a general question related thread.
> 
> Edit: I personally wouldn't be too worried about being able to see the tank while sitting at the bar. I would probably park a couple of bean bags on the floor and just chill with a beer and watch the fish from there. I can't get over how awesome this setup looks. Absolutely gorgeous!


Yes I took several pictures during the building process, not with a lot of detail in some cases/phases as sometimes I was rushing it up, but I have a lot of pictures of it anyway. I'm planning to open a new post once this is totally completed, but I am just sharing the preliminary with the guys here as this post I could say was the one helping me to complete the aquarium. Is my way to say thanks for your contribution and help. I will keep you post once a publish the complete project as I will anounce it here too.

P.S. By the Way, the bean bags is a great idea


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## ngb2322 (Apr 9, 2008)

very nice.....what kind of fish are you going to put in there or do you already have some?


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

ngb2322 said:


> very nice.....what kind of fish are you going to put in there or do you already have some?


Thank you. I am going to follow hoppy's advice and I am going to try to get some discus...maybe some Angels or some other big fish.

I just installed a DYI CO2 System in the meantime that I started up the Presurized system.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

I just make a new post with a Construction Jounal for this project. It is working great, thanks for your help. Biscuit and anyone else interested in the journal, here is the post.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ts/53994-journal-aquarium-bar.html#post404988


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