# My failure of a Natural planted tank



## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

I have a layer of organic peat (sphagnum moss) under my sand in my low tech planted tank as I seen on some site that it would help the plants grow but it stains the water lots and also leaves the top layer of sand in the tank looking dirty as it comes through. Could this stained water hurt my fish – white clouds, danios and platy?

I don't really like the look of it but they seemed happy enough. So I just want advice.
The only plants I have are floating plants, egeria and water wisteria (H. Difformis)
Also I would like to add more plants to the foreground that would stay short and cover the front of the tank.

My tank is at 20 Celsius and is 60cm long with a standard light – nothing fancy.

The bottom of the tank looks so awful even immediately after water changes :/

EDIT: Plus since my lights stopped being on timer (it broke) I was switching on and off manually - it's fixed now about a month later but I think the wisteria is dying. Do you think it will grow back - it had been really nice and growing well!


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Can wisteria be killed off? Wow, I thought it was like duckweed, and lived eternally. I would think it's going to make it.

The water color is from the humic acid/tannins being leached from the peat. From what I've read this is actually very healthy for the fish that come from these environments. Some people actually add it as a additive from a bottle.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Tugg said:


> Can wisteria be killed off? Wow, I thought it was like duckweed, and lived eternally. I would think it's going to make it.
> 
> The water color is from the humic acid/tannins being leached from the peat. From what I've read this is actually very healthy for the fish that come from these environments. Some people actually add it as a additive from a bottle.


I really struggle with plants - hence why I added the soil to this tank.
I have just set up a tank with no sand again and I am seriously considering moving everything into it.

I don't know how to stop the soil rising into the sand


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

if you poke the substrate with a chopstick does it bubble? air bubbles formed under the dirt can cause it to rise. 

how deep is your sand? maybe make it deeper.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks.
I think the soil is just lighter than the sand.
I might try making it thicker then


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Organic peat moss is not soil. In my experience it's good as a soil-additive, but only in moderate amounts, and I wouldn't use it as a main portion of my substrate (too light and messy).

Use an actual soil. Might solve things.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

So what could I add to it?
Clay?
Grit?
Some type of cat litter?


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=84918

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

It can be added to topsoil. Topsoil doesn't necessarily need it though. Some people would even take measures to avoid adding organics to their soil.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Skizhx said:


> It can be added to topsoil. Topsoil doesn't necessarily need it though. Some people would even take measures to avoid adding organics to their soil.


Top soil here just means a heavy clay?
Is that right?

@GG The MCOG in the link - has poultry litter in it and they say it's not really beneficial after mineralising?


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

No, topsoil here means topsoil. As in, go to the store and look for a bag that says "topsoil". I guess if you want to get technical it's a mix of minerals, low organic content (maybe some decomposed), some clay content (maybe), maybe sand... Its exact composition really varies from brand to brand, store to store, state the state, country to country, etc.

Miracle Grow Organic is better after mineralizing than it is before. The whole point of mineralizing it is that it allows the organic content to decompose before sticking it in your tank. Decomposing organics can lead to problems in aquariums (sometimes, usually, maybe. See a pattern here?).

Personally I steer clear of Miracle Grow. The only reason why it's highly recommended is because it's available, and it's one of the few "soils" that you can be reasonably sure will be the same from place to place. Otherwise though it's known for having problems. I guess the counter argument is "at least we know what problems to expect", but I'd rather just use a substrate that just doesn't cause problems....

Anyways... I would look for plain topsoil. No additives, no fertilizer, and not "black" topsoil. Just topsoil.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Skizhx said:


> No, topsoil here means topsoil. As in, go to the store and look for a bag that says "topsoil". I guess if you want to get technical it's a mix of minerals, low organic content (maybe some decomposed), some clay content (maybe), maybe sand... Its exact composition really varies from brand to brand, store to store, state the state, country to country, etc.
> 
> Miracle Grow Organic is better after mineralizing than it is before. The whole point of mineralizing it is that it allows the organic content to decompose before sticking it in your tank. Decomposing organics can lead to problems in aquariums (sometimes, usually, maybe. See a pattern here?).
> 
> ...


Ok thanks - I'm in ireland here and we usually buy 'topsoil' by the lorry load!  
I assume you mean supermarket by store or do you mean garden store?
Sorry I'm such a noob, I'm used to british english.

Next tank I will try a top soil.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Hope it solves your problems!

It's the same stuff you'd generally use to fill holes in your yard or whatever. Nothing fancy. Hardware stores and garden stores usually carry it. The only hard part can be finding it without it being "black" (they market it on the bag as "black" or "rich"), which usually means there's a lot of compost/organics in it. I've used a couple topsoils that were sold with peat added. They worked well. I've also added my own peat to topsoil with success.


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

The stuff you buy by the lorry load would be perfect! Most hobbyists don't want to buy that much, so, they look for the pre-packaged stuff in the stores, garden centers/hardware/any place that caters to houseplants or gardening. Unfortunately, most of the prepackaged 'top soils' contain more organic material (such as peat, wood) than soil...some that I looked at had 0 soil and all organics, lol! You can probably do better than buying bagged stuff by just digging some soil from your yard, if you can go that route.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Kerry said:


> The stuff you buy by the lorry load would be perfect! Most hobbyists don't want to buy that much, so, they look for the pre-packaged stuff in the stores, garden centers/hardware/any place that caters to houseplants or gardening. Unfortunately, most of the prepackaged 'top soils' contain more organic material (such as peat, wood) than soil...some that I looked at had 0 soil and all organics, lol! You can probably do better than buying bagged stuff by just digging some soil from your yard, if you can go that route.


Is there no risks to using top soil from my own garden? Parasites and the like?

I think I have bagged compost but I'm afraid it probably has a fertiliser in it which obviously isn't good.

Thanks for the help all!


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

Just pick soil from an area that has not recently had fertilizers and a lot of organic matter added to it. I don't believe there are any issues with parasites, unless possibly if you take it from an aquatic or bog area, in which case you could just bake it in your oven to kill any live organisms in it. Otherwise, any worms and insects will either die off or become food for the tank.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the info.

Any ideas what I could do with my current set up? Should I just strip it down or do you think I should leave it?


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Tugg said:


> Can wisteria be killed off? Wow, I thought it was like duckweed, and lived eternally. I would think it's going to make it.
> 
> The water color is from the humic acid/tannins being leached from the peat. From what I've read this is actually very healthy for the fish that come from these environments. Some people actually add it as a additive from a bottle.


The wisteria didn't make it. Shows just how bad I must be :/


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## ming shipwreck (Mar 24, 2011)

Changing from peat and sand to topsoil basically means starting over, because you're changing the soil--you have to take the tank apart (I mean, not the actual tank, but everything in it...  ). One big benefit of the topsoil is that it helps rooted plants thrive and compete with algae, so I would get some plants like cryptocorynes (aka "crypts") that are fairly small (the leaves get to around 10-20 cm tall), that will help complement any floating plants you keep. My experience with wisteria has been that it just refuses to grow at too low a temperature--I think around 25 degrees C is the bare minimum. It really likes closer 30.

Also, you should make sure your lightbulb is the right kind. The measurement you need to look at on the bulb is color temperature, if I remember correctly, 4500 or higher is best for plants. I believe lightbulbs lose their potency after about a year or so and you need to change it even though it still looks the same to human eyes (if you are using one of those compact fluorescent bulbs, maybe just move it to another light fixture in your house...).

For lighting, another possibility is just to keep the tank near a window. A lot of people don't like to do that because you can't really control the amount of light it gets, and it changes so much seasonally, but if you're not trying to precisely control conditions in your tank it might be easier than trying to track down the right kind of bulb, deal with a timer, and all that stuff. I live in a small apartment with big picture windows facing south, so it gets a ton of sun, and my tank is against the wall farthest from the windows. Crypts, rotala, and water lilies absolutely thrive (the water lilies don't bloom though). I used to have it right by the window and it got too much sun and a lot of algae.

Good luck!


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

25—30 C! That can't be right as that would be 77—86 F. My wisterias grow between 75—78 F (aprox 24—26 F). They are planted in Miracle Grow Organic Choice capped with sand and they are a jungle if I don't keep them trimmed and thinned! I have (4) 26 W CFL's supplemented with a few hours of sunlight. 

I agree though. I think a complete do-over is required. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

I think if you re-do it, you can get a setup that is simpler to maintain by going with the dirted substrate and a low light planting, but, even if you want the option of higher light plants, it seems to me, the dirt substrate will still make upkeep easier in the long run. I specifically went with the dirt tank because I didn't want to be tied to a constant regimen of dosing...I had enough of that with marine tanks! Oh, and, if you go the soil route, be sure to add some Malaysian trumpet snails to keep the soil aerated. I currently have snails ordered for my tank, which is a new setup, because I am getting a foul stench from my substrate. The soil layer does decompose organics and without enough oxygen, the soil can become anoxic which can kill the plant roots, and, in severe cases, leach hydrogen sulfide gas into the tank (the smell I'm getting) which can kill fish. So far, my fish are fine, but, I have a high water flow in the tank to help keep the substrate surface oxygenated until the snails arrive and get to work.  

Just wanted to add, if you are using the household spiral compact lights, you need to replace them every 3 to 4 months, not yearly. The color spectrum shifts fast in these bulbs so that by the end of 3 months (at 12h per day) the color shift is great enough to noticeably affect plant growth. This info is based on data collected by the algae-scrubber fans who have been systematically experimenting with lighting to achieve the best and fasted growth of green algae for filtration. Their combined experiences have shown that the spiral compacts will grow algae/plants very well in the 3400-7000 kelvin range, but, that growth drops off noticeably right at 3 months when the lamps kelvin range shifts out of the optimum range. So if you use these bulbs, be prepared to replace them 4 times a year.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks so much for all the help, I have a second, slightly larger tank and I will set it up with a topsoil substrate. 

I can't really move it closer to the window as there is no where suitable.

I think I'll stick to low light plants and the wisteria was doing well for ages at low temperatures so I'll try it again.

So If starting from scratch - I was gonna use topsil from a container I have and it is regularly moistened and let dry but the plants died off in the spring as our dog pulled them out. I still moistened it weekly (just hand place to put water change water) so I think I it should be suitable for the substrate.


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## Catrea (Nov 7, 2013)

Catrea said:


> Thanks so much for all the help, I have a second, slightly larger tank and I will set it up with a topsoil substrate.
> 
> I can't really move it closer to the window as there is no where suitable.
> 
> ...


New thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/89785-i-attempt-mineralise-topsoil.html


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