# Staggering shrimp loss



## SAWALLACE (Dec 24, 2004)

So, after a few setbacks and crashes (same scenario all over again), I was finally getting my tank back together. I Replaced the substrate (for other reasons), cycled the tank, I still don't have many plants but I don't think this is a problem. I bought 16 Amano shrimp last weekend. Everything was going well, they were active and a few even molted. Only one loss after acclimation. Yesterday I did a water change and BOOM.... all but 1 shrimp died that night. This is the second time this has happened to me. I used NovAqua+ and Amquel+ this last time... are these safe for shrimp? Am I not getting something? If I remember correctly, I used amquel+ for a few weeks last time and I didn't have a reaction like this.. at least not when I did the first WC. I read that some ppl have had the same problem with dechlors, but it doesn't say any specific brand of dechlor. I was going to switch to prime this time, but from what I could tell from the bottle, it doesn't remove copper (which I'm a little worried about from the last time).

Has this happened to anyone else? Any thoughts?

Thanks


----------



## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Amquel was one of the declors that was mentioned as being possibly harmful to shrimp. But, I'm curious as to why you would want a declor to remove copper. Do you have copper in your tank/water?


----------



## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Scott... Sorry hear that you have lost shrimp twice now. 

I would not use either Amquel or Novaqua on your shrimp tank just to be on the safe side. I use and been very satisfied with Aqua-plus on both my fish and shrimp tanks. It does remove chlorine/chloramine and neutralize heavy metals.


----------



## SAWALLACE (Dec 24, 2004)

I thought that copper was the first cause, as I wasn't using NovAqua (removes heavy metals) at the time, only amquel+. I'm always real careful, so I was at a loss for other possible causes. 

Who makes aqua plus? I don't recall ever seeing it in my LFS.

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Nutrifin makes AquaPlus.


----------



## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Have you tried Seachem's Prime? I haven't had any problems with it. It's economical too. Just two drops per gallon. I used Amqel+ and it killed my Apisto's after a water change. Bad stuff!


----------



## SAWALLACE (Dec 24, 2004)

BTW, I don't mean to flame amquel or novaqua, but for the good of shrimp-keepers, if there is a problem with using these products, we should be aware of it.


----------



## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Sorry about your losses, Scott.

Aside from everything that has been mentioned, the only thing I can think of that may have affected them is a temp swing between the water you added, and what you took out.
Other than that, do you think you could have had something on your hands (like lotion, etc.) that could have been toxic to them, or something in the container you used to refill the tank? Even a slight overspray of a chemical that you don't see could be toxic.


----------



## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Although I can't say for sure those products are dangerous to shrimp, there is enough anecdotal evidence for me to suggest being cautious. It is said that those declor products that use formaldehyde are to blame.


----------



## Alf Alpha (Jun 21, 2005)

Your municipal water source has a spike of chlorine/chloramine. You dose your normal amount of Amquel. Some fish die.

Gee, Amquel just killed your fish!


----------



## richy (Nov 8, 2004)

I have not had any problems using Amquel as water conditioner. I have not seen any losses of shrimp from using. I add 2-3 drops per gallon and I use a slow drip method that restricts water flow to 1gph by using a gardening dripper that you can find at your local home depot or hardware store. pH and temp shock are, I believe, neutralized or minimized using this method.

It does seem like there may be cause for concern, though, and reason enough to switch water conditioner. OTOH, I don't see any reason to fix something that ain't broke.


----------



## SAWALLACE (Dec 24, 2004)

Alf Alpha said:


> Your municipal water source has a spike of chlorine/chloramine. You dose your normal amount of Amquel. Some fish die.
> 
> Gee, Amquel just killed your fish!


I said that there has been mention of dechlors that are unsafe for shrimp, but no mention of any brands.

Although possible that it was a spike, this is the second time it has happened under the same circumstances. Sound like a coincidence to you? ....especially after reading that there has been concern over "unidentified" dechlors, you don't recognize my concern?

I believe it certainly warrants a discussion, this isn't intended on being a flame thread.


----------



## Alf Alpha (Jun 21, 2005)

SAWALLACE said:


> I said that there has been mention of dechlors that are unsafe for shrimp, but no mention of any brands.
> 
> Although possible that it was a spike, this is the second time it has happened under the same circumstances. Sound like a coincidence to you? ....especially after reading that there has been concern over "unidentified" dechlors, you don't recognize my concern?
> 
> I believe it certainly warrants a discussion, this isn't intended on being a flame thread.


Well, I have read of several people who have succesfully used Amquel with shrimp. Consider that you used Amquel several days without any issues. Why would it suddenly mass-kill your shrimp? The theory doesn't appeal to scientific thinking.

To me, a more likely explanation is some unstable water parameters in your tap water. Contact your municipal water supplier, ask them what the peak values of chlorine/chloramine/copper/etc. can be found in the culinary water supply. Ask them what fluctuations are possible in pH/kH/gH/NO3/etc. You may determine that in order to house shrimp you will need to be more meticulous in preparing your water changes.

I suspect that people blame their dechlors for livestock death much more often than the facts would support. Hence, there is a lot of anectdotal noise on the subject matter.

(Note that many of the dechlors are deficient. They claim to neutralize chloramine, but they don't neutralize the resulting ammonia spike. This includes popular choices like Stress Coat. Amquel and Prime are highly regarded dechlors that do properly neutralize the ammonia.)


----------



## fish7days (Jul 30, 2005)

Scientific or not scientific, I have had a number of instances where water changes combined with Amquel+ resulted in deaths of fish and shrimp. Please take note of my choice of words. I did not say that Amquel+ killed my fish. I have switched to filtering my water and I can literally run the filtered water straight into my tanks with zero visible effect on any livestock. I used this method when I imported fish from South America and consumed very large quantities of water daily. I experimented with Amquel+ at the time, and again had losses. The water supply at the time was from a different City. If a certain product works for you, great, use it! I can just not see myself continue using a product and see my fish or shrimp die, while I'm trying to rationalize why that product should not be the cause. In my case, I stopped and it worked. YMMV.

André


----------



## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Make sure you all differentiate between Amquel and Amquel +. Either way, the suspected caution is with those decloraminators that use Formadehyde to break the bond between Ammonia and Chlorine for the chloramines. That is the hypothesis anyway, whatever the brand names might be. It would not be the simple dechlorinators.


----------



## Alf Alpha (Jun 21, 2005)

Piscesgirl said:


> Make sure you all differentiate between Amquel and Amquel +. Either way, the suspected caution is with those decloraminators that use Formadehyde to break the bond between Ammonia and Chlorine for the chloramines. That is the hypothesis anyway, whatever the brand names might be. It would not be the simple dechlorinators.


Well, Amquel doesn't 'contain' formaldehyde, the active molecule (called Chloram-X) _is_ an aldehyde. Amquel+ has Chloram-X and obvioulsy some other chemicals.

BTW, is there anything approximating a controlled scientific experiment that supports this hypothesis? I am not trying to defend Amquel, I just would like to see something more than a glob of anecdotal evidence.


----------



## Dino Copella (Jul 11, 2005)

Did you perform any other chores in tandem with the water change, speifically cleaning out filter media? This could cause a wipeout of nitrobacter which would in turn create a massive spike in nitirites. Is there CO2 running in your system? What were test parameters like after the shrimp disaster?


----------

