# Cheap alternative to ADA aquasoil



## plantbrain

Cheap semi soft enriched clay Barr Substrates. Molasses added to encourage growth of bacteria and mychorrhizal fungi. Cost relative to "MPV Turface", doing an ADA soil vs this product presently. Various grain sizes also(Dark black brown color) appears very much like ADA aqua soil except 10X cheaper (and much cheaper than Onyx/Flourite etc). Various nutrient content options also. Available late Oct.

Still running the test, but it looks just like the ADA stuff and is soft clay like material and comes in various nutrient contents and grain sizing.

I've never really liked suggesting Flourite or other expensive substrates to folks, I still wish this stuff was heavier, but it's not too bad I suppose once you get use to it.

I have 2 tanks ea with ADA Amazonia and with my Barr substrate(BS for short -haha, but the material is no joke).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Gomer

It would be interesting if you did 2 side by side tanks with identical plants. Do a photo journal over maybe 3-4 weeks.


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## shalu

Tom, is your cheap substrate closer to aqua soil or power sand? You are only using aqua soil amanonia in the ADA substrate tank, no power sand?


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## bharada

Tom,
Are you planning on marketing/selling this stuff or are you just keeping the specifics to yourself until your trials are completed?


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## Raul-7

Is it possible to break it down and analyze the chemical make-up of both of them?


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## TWood

If, as you've said before, plants can get all they need from the water column, then why be concerned about the properties of the substrate? (Aside from it not doing anything negative.)

TW


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## omega

Why molasses? Can we use sugar instead? I steal Sweet & Low from restaurants all the time. It would be nice for me to start using them.

But anyway, is the bacteria and mychorrhizal fungi the reason why ADA Amazonia does that crazy voodoo thing to plants that everyone seems to be talking about? Oh, and didn't people say that you're not supposed to add sugar to a tank because it's "bad" when people asked if they can imitate Excel by adding raw table sugar? This is like the diet craze. "Carbs is good for you," says expert 1. "Carbs make you fat," says expert 2.

Very confused.


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## AaronT

> Molasses added to encourage growth of bacteria and mychorrhizal fungi.


mmmm....just like grandma used to make.


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## urville

well i dont know if "table sugar" can helplants but it is a fact that plants use the power of photosynthesis to extract glucose which is the energy they use to grow...

i've also heard adding a very small amount of "table" sugar to a reef tank can help some corals really go crazy with growth.


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## plantbrain

The sugars are for the bacteria to eat.
We generally are reduced carbon limited (like sugar carbs, not CO2) at the start up. This as well as little for the plants will help. Plants can be sustained on sucrose and cold temps without light for long peroids(months or longer for Tissue culture samples).

What do plants need for food?
Sugars......
There is a __limit__ to this obviously.

One tank:
Using ADA power sand + Amazonia AS.

Tank two will have the Barr dirt (sort of the soil version) + MPV Turface + secret sauce(peat, a general macro+ dried mulm).

I'm keeping the specs to myself till the test run is over.
I have the complete break down of what my product is, I know a few things about ADA's product, but analysis in depth, but I do not need that info either...........

TW- yep, but I'd like to see if this might be an alternative to ADA soil which many seem enamoured with. But I do know this: many plants do better with a substrate, many have start up problems with a tank(see why wait to fert a new tank thread).

I'm going to do one test without ferts to the water column, inspect the roots, and leaves etc.
Then another with the water column ferts over a 4 week peroid.

I tried ADA soil and PS some years back, I think 1997. I did not care for it then but I also did not test it well either.......

Everyone is raging about how great it is, and how much it cost also..........
So I don't mind doing this........

Availability: likely through my site at cost(subscribers). 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## James..........

plantbrain said:


> ...Tank two will have the Barr dirt (sort of the soil version) + MPV Turface + secret sauce(peat, a general macro+ dried mulm).
> 
> I'm keeping the specs to myself till the test run is over.
> I have the complete break down of what my product is, I know a few things about ADA's product, but analysis in depth, but I do not need that info either...........
> 
> I tried ADA soil and PS some years back, I think 1997. I did not care for it then but I also did not test it well either.......
> 
> Everyone is raging about how great it is, and how much it cost also..........
> So I don't mind doing this........
> 
> Availability: likely through my site at cost(subscribers).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Shades of Albert J. Theil..... the secrets of the Universe can be yours... for a price...

Good luck with the business venture Tom 

James Purchase
Toronto


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## plantbrain

James.......... said:


> Shades of Albert J. Theil..... the secrets of the Universe can be yours... for a price...
> 
> Good luck with the business venture Tom
> 
> James Purchase
> Toronto


I suppose you might want to go after every plant vendor, ADA, SeaChem, as well as the AGA then James................they all charge something do they not? Are contest free?

Nope.

Perhaps everything should be for free for you then eh?
Otherwise you question their ethics?

I do offer willingly lots of free advice, help and have consistently for a decade on line and 30 years in person..........which is rather better than the snide comments you've been making for the last couple of years both ehre and the APD.

If you have something to say that is not troll like, say it, otherwise troll elsewhere James...............

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## gnatster

> Are contest free?


Why yes, the APC Contest is free to enter.


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## whitepine

Tom,

Where are you on the testing of your substrate? Update please? ;-)


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## thatguy

update on this ADA killer substrate?


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## plantbrain

The issue is not the content, the material is fine, the probelm is consistency of the grain sizing.

I am still looking. I've found several potentials, but unless they have all the criteria that aquasoil has, it's not going to be a go.

Soilmaster is a great sub for Flourite but much more competes with Eco definitely.

I brought a sample to the SWOAPE's folks and they went nuts and now have a bunch.

That's about as light weight as EC and Aquasoil, actually Aqua soil is lighter.

I am analyzing the ADA power sand also, so I'll put out the data for NO3, NH4, PO4, K+.

The little soft fertilizer balls in powersand will also be anaylzed.
Osmocoat should do the same thing as these balls.
Peat in the pumice is no different than peat we can buy also.

So some peat, mulm, osmocoat should do about the same thing over time. 
So the main issue is really the aqua soil.

Kitty litter is softer clay and it expands and makes a mess, but it's grain size is great for aquariums and we all know going way way back that it works and grows plants super.

I've talked to a kitty litter maker and will see if they can come up with a clay that will minmic the FB/AS type clays.

20$ for a little bag or 30$ for clay, seems a bit steep, most of the cost is for shipping these products etc, not so much for the product itself.

BTW, if I am looking into this, it's because I like ADA soils(I have two such tanks), much like we like Dupla stuff. But I can easily afford this stuff, but many will never do it and helping folks out here is what I'm doing.

The product will not be tied to the BarrReport.
I'm not sure how I might get it distributed to folks yet. If it was already made, then folks could by locally and I'd not need to ship anything anywhere, that was the main issue with the ADA, Flourite overseas etc etc.

..............Gnaster, did I specifically mention __the APC__?
My statement was valid and true for those I mentioned. I never mentioned APC contest................

James acts like no one is allowed to pay the bills(APC charges for ads as do most forums), for any information or help or products without questioning my ethics....

I fully intend to give this material away to everyone if it worked out well. 
If I need to develop and have it made, then I'll try and work that out when I get to that point. There'd be no way folks on my site would keep it to themselves anyway.

If folks are so up tight about my site and this issue(they are reading it obviously), why have they not done this yet and come up with their __own__?? Folks did a lot of work themselves when Dupla overcharged for things back in the past........I do not see the same attitude by many plant folks any longer.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## AaronT

Your original statement:


> Availability: likely through my site at cost(subscribers).


What you are saying now:


> The product will not be tied to the BarrReport.


I'm not trying to flame you here Tom, but your statements do contradict each other.


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## AaronT

What I mean to say Tom is, as a sponsor of the site it's okay to sell and promote things here on APC so don't worry about it when people get in a huff over it.


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## TWood

plantbrain said:


> Folks did a lot of work themselves when Dupla overcharged for things back in the past........I do not see the same attitude by many plant folks any longer.........


I think that may be because so many aquarium-keeping components have been reduced to their most basic elements. The Greg Watson ferts are the perfect example of this. More recently, there's the effort to break GH down into an optimal Ca:Mg ratio. (At least it seems new to me.) But reduction is useful only so far. What else needs to be broken into smaller parts?

TW


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## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> Your original statement:
> 
> What you are saying now:
> 
> I'm not trying to flame you here Tom, but your statements do contradict each other.


Well, how would I protect the info then? Once folks got a bag with a label, they'd know. Unless I repackaged it, which I do not want to do.........and shipped it, which I also do not want to do...........

Gee, folks are not allowed to think about something and lean one way then after some thought, go the other way?
Once I say something, I cannot go back and rethink it and modify it?
You have never changed your mind Arron?

I do try and drum up some value for my site, so does Art for APC.
Some work out, some don't.

Anyone doing something like a forum or other businesses knows this.
No flame taken, but it's a bit silly to say I cannot change my mind. It's a decision, not I was right or wrong.

Changing one's mind is not the same as a contradiction. You quoted me there Aaron, right?

Now did I say I would _likely do it at cost_ for my subscribers?

See that "likely" part?

Seems clear that I was *thinking about it, not committed set in stone*.

I've thought more on it, I said I do not want to repackage, nor sell gravel.
I do not have time for all that.

But.........I know someone who does............

So this a freebie to everyone once it's done a developed.

Look, I can afford and have 2 ADA soil tanks, but I started out poor in the hobby and know many folks are looking for cheaper "alternatives", something at least one of the moderators here wanted me to understand so passionately..........

Looking at DIY, we often have a much better understanding of what and why these things work.

That is more interesting to me, the how is easy.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> What I mean to say Tom is, as a sponsor of the site it's okay to sell and promote things here on APC so don't worry about it when people get in a huff over it.


You suggest if I was a paying customer in a store(APC) and 2 managers(Gnaster and yourself) and another customer poo pooed on me and I complain, that I should just sit back and not get into "a huff".

If you want to use the "sponser" part for support, treat them like a customer........I worked kissing butt for many years as a meat cutter, whatever the customer wanted..........but I am not compensated here for that, I actually am __paying for this abuse__ as a "customer". I have folks on my site that I kiss up to. I am being compensated and made an agreement.

Don't piss the customer off by trying to use their statements against them by labeling the statements something that they are not, then tell the person not to get into huff. You are pouring gas on the fire.

You are not paid here, but you did agree to be a mod, there are certain agreements associated with that.

Picking on Tom Barr ain't one of them.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

TWood said:


> I think that may be because so many aquarium-keeping components have been reduced to their most basic elements. The Greg Watson ferts are the perfect example of this. More recently, there's the effort to break GH down into an optimal Ca:Mg ratio. (At least it seems new to me.) But reduction is useful only so far. What else needs to be broken into smaller parts?
> 
> TW


Good question Tom.
Actually, the substrate observation of Aqua soil/powersand warrant a look at this again. But the cost is prohibitive for many, even if they can afford it.

There are a few ways to deliver the nutrients to plants.
Some like the substrate method, it is easier for many beginners than EI.
Then once things are grown in well,they can switch.

We know the water column fairly well.
We know some about the substrate but being able to reduce it to the basics and what and how it works is a good goal I think.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> You suggest if I was a paying customer in a store(APC) and 2 managers(Gnaster and yourself) and another customer poo pooed on me and I complain, that I should just sit back and not get into "a huff".
> 
> If you want to use the "sponser" part for support, treat them like a customer........I worked kissing butt for many years as a meat cutter, whatever the customer wanted..........but I am not compensated here for that, I actually am __paying for this abuse__ as a "customer". I have folks on my site that I kiss up to. I am being compensated and made an agreement.
> 
> Don't piss the customer off by trying to use their statements against them by labeling the statements something that they are not, then tell the person not to get into huff. You are pouring gas on the fire.
> 
> You are not paid here, but you did agree to be a mod, there are certain agreements associated with that.
> 
> Picking on Tom Barr ain't one of them.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I did not tell you not to get in a huff. I suggested that you not let it bother you when others get in a huff (referring to your frustration with James). There is a difference there.

You are allowed to change your mind about something Tom, but you got defensive when people gave you a hard time about only making the substrate available through your site. Up until then all they had to go on was your original statement that it would likely be available to members of your site, which would imply that yes....you are making money off of it. How were we to know you changed your mind when you hadn't said so until now?

Again though, my whole point is that there's no need to defend yourself even if you did decide to only make it available through your site. That's your choice to make and your right as a paying sponsor.

Kissing your butt, as you so eloquently stated, is not my job. My job here is to see that people on this forum relate to one another with some respect. I saw that James disrespected you and until now you let it go so it was left at that (and actually at the time of his posting I had no power to change it anyhow). Gnatster gave you a bit of a hard time as well. Now you've chosen to personally single people out and get defensive. So before you go preaching at me about my responsibilities as a moderator you had better check your own actions first. Regardless of your belief that the sponsors on this site are customers, they still have a responsibility to conduct themselves in a manner above and beyond that of a normal poster. If you feel Gnatster and James owe you apologies then PM them accordingly and please deal with it that way.

You brought this out into the open so the original intent of my response was to show you how people could have been upset over a contradiction of terms. If you feel that I misinterpreted then please forgive me. That being said if you wish to further discuss this matter with me please contact me via PM and I will gladly do so.


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## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I did not tell you not to get in a huff. I suggested that you not let it bother you when others get in a huff. There is a difference there.


You don't appreciated words being twisted any more than I do? But it's okay when you do it in the previous post? This is the same "game" both Gnaster and you just played on me. Funny how the "game" works, when the person baits you now huh?

Neither of you had to say anything. James and I said our peace and it was let go. Instead you two fanned the flames and picked sides by going after me and what I said, defending James.



> You are allowed to change your mind about something Tom, but you got defensive when people gave you a hard time about only making the substrate available through your site.


People? You mean yourself, Gnaster and James.
Who started this negative stuff?

If it were just James being a whiner, that's one thing, but when a couple of mods jump in on James' side poo pooing me, then tell me not to worry about it...........then that is something quite different. You represent APC.
James does not.

Both Gnaster and yourself chose to do so...........I did not mention either of your names prior nor took a shot at APC, nor any thing to do with either of you. The issue was dead.

Do not play all innocent.
If you think it's a waste of time, then do not respond.
But you did.........

I am wondering why......
If you have a goal of keeping folks from getting in a huff, or ignoring it, then why the heck are you bring it back up and back them up?

That is the opposite of your supposed goal.
So something does not add up here........
You tell me to ignore the flames while you pour gas on them.



> Up until then all they had to go on was your original statement that it would likely be available to members of your site, which would imply that yes....you are making money off of it.


Many folks/sponsers/plant growers make money, does not mean you go in and question ADG's ethics, gregwatson's, low coaster, or anyone that sells weeds on the auctions nor other businesses.
I know folks make more than I certainly do, selling plants on AquaBid and here. Why pick on me about this?
Why are the mods doing it here?

You do more harm than good and waste people's time.



> Again though, my whole point is that there's no need to defend yourself even if you did decide to only make it available through your site. That's your choice to make and your right as a paying sponsor.


No need? You yourself said that I am contradicting myself. Then act like you are all in the right and don't even take your own advice. I chose to respond to James.

The mods chose to respond to my comments and defended James.
Gnaster comes along and says something to confuse the issue, and point something out that has nothing to do with the conservation after I responded to James' troll post. Then you did the same thing. Now you say something quite different.

That's not just "changing your mind".
That's slapping me then saying "let's make up".
I don't play that game.



> don't worry about it when people get in a huff over it.


Can you and the other mod take your advice?
Drop it. I did and so did James.

This is off topic and time black hole.
Take your own advice. Drop it. I sure as heck am.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## gnatster

I'm on vacation, someone care to tell me how I got dragged into this?

I thiunk it's safe to say it's pretty darn obvious that at the time APC Contest was just being announced and it was easy to tack a quick plug about being free when the questions about free contests was broached. Lets put it back into the context it was given 2.5 months ago when no one had anything to say please

Call me very confused.


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