# Dummy Question #009: Japanese Clear Water TM?



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ok, every so often we all get antsy and decide that we are sick and tired of the not-so-perfectly clear water in our tanks. We start noticing too much the CO2 bubbles that float around. We start seeing some kind of milky opalescence that could or could not be there depending on our mood. At times the water definitely looks like it could use some polishing.

So here we go - we pull out our trustworthy Diatom filter, our 100 lb. bags of Purigen, our buckets of activated carbon and get to work. We may even go as far as cleaning our filter sponges. Some really go an extra mile and actually change the coarse and fine Eheim filter pads spending money and getting immense satisfaction.

And the water gets clear. Oh yes! Very clear.

After a few days things are back to the usual. Not so "fish look as if suspended in air", not so "Oh come look at the tank from the side! You can read a book through 4 ft. of clear water!" and not so happy hobbyist. "This is too much work" many people say about aquariums. At times we all agree with these lazy people.

So! I'm here to, once again, direct your attention to the way the Japanese have figured out how to make the aquarium water clear. Very clear. Once again they have not invented anything new. But oh how they apply what they borrow from others!

Here, this tank contains no water unless you look up and see the surface that a cunning assistant has made move using his trusty hair dryer.









We all know - to take a picture Amano actually prepares the tanks for weeks in advance. Nothing during the photoshoot is accidental. Of course that his water will be crystal clear! We believe that the night before the photoshoot his people ran all the diatoms filters in the world, used all the Purigens, activated carbons and who knows what else. We are sure that the water in that tank does not look that clear on a daily basis.

But we have also seen the youtube videos from ADA's showroom in Niigata. If you haven't seen them, here, take a look, but first make sure you are sitting down on a sturdy chair. (Reef tanks take a break and smoke nervously at the back door as they say in certain countries):





Ok, without further bloviating let's get down to business:

*How does ADA maintain the aquarium water so exceptionally clear?*

Hints:
_1. ADA uses the notorious Lily Pipe/Intake duo_
_2. ADA uses a pump to move the water_
_3. ADA uses a glass diffuser (that one really tells it all!)_

Those are things that ADA uses on a daily basis. I suspect they may use Diatom filters at times but for sure they are not hooked up constantly to the tanks.

The answer is a single word. See if you can figure it out in 30 or 60 seconds.

It could be "Biofiltration!", but how on Earth does the glass diffuser fit in all that? Yes, there are connections we need to make, loose ends to tie together, use some glue to piece together what we already know.

Yes?

--Nikolay


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## longhornxtreme (Feb 20, 2007)

You've got me stumped... I don't understand the signifance of the diffuser... 

I've always kept sparkling water with my canister filter; I just regularly swap out some filter floss each time I service the filter.


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## jeremy1 (May 6, 2007)

I have always maintained crystal clear water with good filtration and water movement. The more times I turn my water over through a clean canister filter, the cleaner my water is. In a densely planted tank, small powerheads placed in areas of slow moving water can help. Basically, good filter maintanance with weekly water changes keeps my water in good shape.

Cheers,
Jeremy


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## Reginald2 (Feb 8, 2009)

niko said:


> Hints:
> _1. ADA uses the notorious Lily Pipe/Intake duo_
> _2. ADA uses a pump to move the water_
> _3. ADA uses a glass diffuser (that one really tells it all!)_


Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

Or the absence of a reference point makes it harder to gauge opacity?


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## peanutbowl (Mar 25, 2009)

> Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?


LOL! Well maybe it was two birds and they used a piece of string or something?

But really. I would imagine that clear water starts off pretty clear. Like what you get when you run your refill water through ADA's RO/DI/polishing filter.
:fish2:
Just fishin'.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Allright!

I see that I've hit one of many nails in the head. I mean here we have an example of how much we don't know. And how much we don't bother to look for.

Here's a starting point for those that actually want to learn more:

*Find a picture of how ADA places the outlow/inflow. Look at the way the Lilly Pipe is pointed. Look at the position and design of the inflow. Look at the flow pattern of the water in the tank. What's important to note about it? Why do you think the water is intentionally made to move that way?*

When you find that picture, please post it here. I'm too lazy to do it for you. Lazy in, lazy out.

Once someone hyperactive and resourceful posts the picture I will ask:
*Where is the CO2-difuser on that picture?*

At that point we will be one small step away from answering the original question - "How do the Japanese make the water so clear?". And we will see that the answer maybe 1 word, but it works only because it's part of a bigger picture. Our usual reaction to problems in our tanks is a 1 step approach. Sometimes 2. That's what I want to emphasise - learning to look at the big picture.

If noone finds the picture with the ADA water flow this Dummy Question thread will end right here. Just remember that there is an answer out there, it's available, and it works. It would take me about 1 minute to type it explaining things in perspective. And there are many more answers waiting to be found for very much everything we do in this hobby.

--Nikolay


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## Natalia (Sep 15, 2008)

http://www.thegreenmachineonline.com/Aquatics/Aquascapes/ADA-at-TGM/

Now, give up all your secrets


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

OK, I'll bite...

The diffuser is on the bottom away from the outflow and inflow of the filter tubes. So, one could argue that they're augmenting maximum distribution of the CO2 by the flow created from the lily pipes. *Circulation*, would be the obvious word, which would substantiate the claim that ADA recommends a filter of tremendous capacity for these tanks. When full of plants, you need the power to circulate the water adequately.

OK... any others???...


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Bert H said:


> OK, I'll bite...
> 
> The diffuser is on the bottom away from the outflow and inflow of the filter tubes. So, one could argue that they're augmenting maximum distribution of the CO2 by the flow created from the lily pipes. *Circulation*, would be the obvious word, which would substantiate the claim that ADA recommends a filter of tremendous capacity for these tanks. When full of plants, you need the power to circulate the water adequately.
> 
> OK... any others???...


Yeah, what he said...


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## londonloco (Sep 25, 2005)

I'm going with what Bert said above. The outflow is placed left back half of the tank, flow direction is towards the opposite (right) side of the wall. As the water hits the wall on the opposite side of the tank, it swirls around to the diffuser which is placed on the right front half of the tank. The water continues around the tank, hitting the intake, which is next to the outflow. Drop checker is placed directly in front of outflow, above intake. The flow is around the perimeter of the tank..which makes the tank clearer? Kind of a tunnel affect? I'm grasping at straws here....


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

Bert H said:


> OK, I'll bite...
> 
> The diffuser is on the bottom away from the outflow and inflow of the filter tubes. So, one could argue that they're augmenting maximum distribution of the CO2 by the flow created from the lily pipes. *Circulation*, would be the obvious word, which would substantiate the claim that ADA recommends a filter of tremendous capacity for these tanks. When full of plants, you need the power to circulate the water adequately.
> 
> OK... any others???...


I have been lurking around reading this I have been following to see what others had to say. If that is the answer then what is up with some of these tanks with the diffuser in the middle of the tank and some on the same side as well? I dont think anyone would doubt circulation plays a key role in planted aquariums though.

*Same side.*

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/26.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/5.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/11.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/12.jpg

*Diffuser on other side but placed in the middle.*

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/6.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/18.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/20.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/24.jpg

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery03/18.jpg


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

_*When you see beautiful planted tank photos, you can bet all filters,pumps,co2 are turned off.

Instant clear water *_


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

orlando said:


> _*When you see beautiful planted tank photos, you can bet all filters,pumps,co2 are turned off.
> 
> Instant clear water *_


They have clear water in the pictures I posted and they have everything still in them. I dont think we got to the answer yet cause if the diffuser was to be placed on the opposite wall then what is up with the diffuser under the outflow and inflow?


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## londonloco (Sep 25, 2005)

The pics posted with diffuser on same side were "island" type scapes. So the flow needs will be different, he needs to get the flow into the middle of the tank. In those pics, the diffusor is directly beneath outflow, and the outflow is pointed to the middle of the scape.


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

londonloco said:


> The pics posted with diffuser on same side were "island" type scapes. So the flow needs will be different, he needs to get the flow into the middle of the tank. In those pics, the diffusor is directly beneath outflow, and the outflow is pointed to the middle of the scape.


So this is a island scape?

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/12.jpg

There is plenty others where there are dutch scapes as well I just picked these out for food for thought.

But regardless of what kinda scape there dont seem to be a steady placement. That would be like me saying place your diffuser 6 inches below the surface and have your inflow/outflow on the same side. What works on one tank dont work on another.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

As far as the diffuser and clear water, IIRC, the small bubbles actually attract "dirt" and such things that are in the water. I'm not sure where the "dirt" goes once the bubbles burst but this method is or at least has been used in waste treatment plants to clean water.


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

jeff5614 said:


> As far as the diffuser and clear water, IIRC, the small bubbles actually attract "dirt" and such things that are in the water. I'm not sure where the "dirt" goes once the bubbles burst but this method is or at least has been used in waste treatment plants to clean water.


They use it for aeration there mostly though *I think*. Not 100% sure cause I never worked at one but from what I read it was what it was used for..


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

Yes, they do use it for aeration but they also use a process called dissolved air flotation. A fine mist of air is injected into water and floating particulate matter is attracted to and attaches to the bubbles. As the smaller bubbles approach the surface they form larger bubbles allowing the attached particulate to be more easily filtered.


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

Thats pretty cool I was just checking that out.


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## DarioDario (Nov 14, 2008)

StillLearning said:


> So this is a island scape?
> 
> http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery02/12.jpg
> 
> ...


So Niko are you implying that we need to maximize water circulation? But clearly evidence has been provided that placement of diffuser and intake and outflow aren't constant.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ah! Very nice discussion!

The answer is indeed "Flotation". Or maybe "Flocculation". Basically some particles floating in the water are so small that they never settle to the bottom of the tank. They stay suspended and although they are so small that we don't see them we see the water as "not completely clear". When these particles meet with the CO2 bubbles (or O2 bubbles) they stick to them. The more bubbles there are and the more flow toward them the better. Other factors of course play a huge role. In saltwater tanks that process in heavy use - protein skimmers. When the small particles stick to the gas bubbles they could also stick to each other and form a clump that's heavier and could settle to the bottom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flotation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flocculation

Maybe the need for bubbles and water hitting each other and tiny particles settling down as a result of that has kept ADA from using external reactors. In such a reactor this flotation/flocculation magic would keep the particles enclosed and maybe even break them into even smaller particles. Also instead of finding ways to disolve the CO2 directly in the water (there are at least 2 such diffusers on the market - they do not form bubbles but somehow put the water and CO2 in contact and the CO2 gets in the water without forming bubbles) ADA has kept the elegant but maintenance needy glass diffusers. Maybe there is a good reason for that.

Of course - if you decide to use that fltation/flocculation process to make the water in your tank completely clear you have a long way to go. There are freshwater skimmers that you can buy for quite a bit of money. They require a lot of flow and strong pumps. "Shuran" makes them. ADA used to offer them in their catalog too. Maybe they still do. Get one and see if it will clear your water to insane levels. But don't forget the other... stuff.
http://www.schuran.com/english/eiweissfresh.html

My point, reiterated over and over again - things work as a system. We can't run to our tanks, install a wooden air diffuser, make a wall of tiny bubbles and make the water completely clear. The circulation absolutely positively plays a role in all that. We saw how ADA does not place the diffusers and filter pipes in an exact way. Or maybe they do depending on some factors that are mysterious to us.

In post #6 here I said "...we will see that the answer maybe 1 word, but it works only because it's part of a bigger picture...". Maybe things are not completey clear to us yet but overall after reading all this we should be a little more aware of the importance of circulation and interactions between the parts of the system - bubbles, planting, circulation direction, turbulent/laminar flow, size of tank, salinity (affects the flotation), and so on.

--Nikolay


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

niko said:


> We saw how ADA does not place the diffusers and filter pipes in an exact way. Or maybe they do depending on some factors that are mysterious to us.


I didnt mean to throw a monkey wrench in things when I pointed it out they dont always do it one way but wanted to open it up for a better discussion. Has anyone ever contacted them and asked them about this? Or why they chose one side or the other? Would be nice to see what they say.


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## freshyleif (Jan 9, 2008)

It is just a guess but it would seem that the way that the filter flow moves though the tank combined with the high flow is part of the whole picture. I like to think that if you look at a river there are different parts with different viewing attributes. The narrow rushing rapids are like the filter and when the river opens up into a slow wide deep pool you can see clear to the bottom of is the same as the tank. If we want our pool (tank) to remain clear and viewable then it is important that we know that the current going in and out are enough to move the debris out and down river(into the filter).

P.S. Thanks for these Dummy Q's. Keep them coming this dummy is hooked like a junky, the fix only lasts a little while then the craving comes back.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but I've gone from reactors to diffusers to reactors to needlewheel pumps and back to reactors again. I really don't care for the look of all the mist flying around but one thing I definitely noticed was that anytime I was using misting the water was definitely clearer.

I don't see the need for a skimmer in freshwater tanks just to increase clarity. A good needlewheel pump or diffuser will make a noticeable difference.


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## StillLearning (Feb 3, 2010)

freshyleif said:


> The narrow rushing rapids are like the filter and when the river opens up into a slow wide deep pool you can see clear to the bottom of is the same as the tank.


I dont think thats a good way to look at it but thats just me. If you looked at the Delaware river you would be saying the same thing as well. I know a few rivers no matter what happens you will never see two feet in front of your face.


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## brackish bro (Jan 22, 2010)

what your asking, niko, is like.... how do they get the fortune into the fortune cookie....how many licks to the center of a tootsie pop....the world may never know.......thanks for all your help to by the way...


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

In the instructions for my ADA diffuser it says to place the diffuser on the opposite side of the lily pipes half way up the side of the tank.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Here's some information that I promised not to give on a silver plate, but to try to motivate everybody to find it themselves.

With the inflow and outflow side by side ADA tries to "design" the water flow in such a way that it moves the slowest close to the substrate. Note that the intake never reaches the bottom. So the water will be moving out of the Lilly Pipe, toward the glass on the opposite side. Then down and then along the bottom toward the intake. But because the inflow is higher than the gravel the water moves slower above the gravel compared to a few inches higher.

Of course that's in an empty tank. With elaborate aquascaping, especially with many plants I'm not entirely sure what happens to all that "designed" flow pattern.

Maybe slower water movement along the substrate is meant to help AquaSoil do its "sequestering of nutrients" from the water. Maybe slower water movement along the substrate helps those clumped up particles we talked about above settle easier. Maybe ADA is just hoping for the best and making things look intentional and pretty.

By the way our own Biotypical here on APC has tested some properties of AquaSoil. The thing retains some kind of electric charge even after being baked at insanely high temperatures. Meaning that it attracts partices to itself. When I heard that I immediately thought about the tiny particles, the settling, and them staying in the substrate forever leaving the water cleaner then before. Also AquaSoil sucks P from the water in a pretty voracious manner. Maybe that could help avoid the binding of P and Fe/Traces that leads to clouding - I don't rememeber if it's the chelating agents that do that or the P and Fe themselves so I'm not sure if AquaSoil's affinity to P has any role in water clarification at all.

--Nikolay


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## grak70 (Jan 5, 2010)

If it's possible to produce a substrate that retains a charge in aquarium water, that suggests we could build a "gadget" with an induced surface charge to do the same thing, no? I realize this might be considered "cheating" a la DQ#10, but it would be a cool gizmo if this theory holds water (yuk yuk). Essentially, this would be the aquatic analog of one of those ionizing air cleaner fans.


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