# 30 year old tank



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm sure you all knew about this tank. I just saw it. For people like me, here it is. And read the info:

http://krandall.zenfolio.com/p718699177


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This is what I hope to achieve with my Walstad tanks.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Here's a real story about 2 other tanks running for several years now:

*Tank #1:*
I've been maintaining a friend's tank for 9 years now. I visit once a week, no exceptions. Substrate is Seachem's Fluorite, there is CO2, and 2 wpg of light. Crypts, swords, a lotus, some saggitaria, some rotala on the surface. I change 40% of the water every week. Add dry fertilizers. Tank looks good but always has algae - more or less depending on the seasons. That's what adding fertilizers to the water does best - an unstable tank that seems to run ok. My friend does not want to change anything so that's how we roll:Tom Barr's Estimative Index all the way. With all the endless work that goes with it and never a truly stable moment.

About 3 months ago I started to vacuum the mulm every week. Improved the water movement. Made sure all pumps' intakes are always clean. The idea was to get rid of organics. Got my friend to add premeasured doses of dry ferts every day (instead of one big dose once a week). The algae was reduced to pretty much non-existence. Then on month 2 the plants stopped growing. There is a bare minimum growth now. 1 or 2 species that were doing well have dwindled away. If someone's gonna tell me there is some kind of defficiency going on please spare me the joke.

I really start to see how an active and nutritious substrate means everything. And no surprise - that is how things happen in Nature. After removing 90% of the mulm I basically let the tank starve. Just adding ferts to the water is a joke and cannot sustain the tank in a stable manner. Now imagine 30 years of this weekly-or-else maintenance. Yes one can do it. But it's pretty stupid. I have little doubt that the 30 year old tank that we all see above was way much easier to keep. Because it does what Nature does.

*Tank #2*
In the same house with the EI tank I setup another tank - a 10 gallon with a rich substrate and full of crypts and anubias. It has CO2 and a medium strong light. Zero fertilization. That little tank has been exploding with growth since day 1. Never, not a single time, I've had any issues with it. Except too much crypt growth during summer. You harvest 1/2 lb. of crypt leaves a week from a 10 gallon tank and see what you think about rich substrate and no ferts in the water.


----------



## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

looks good! keep I've seen it in my tank before, liquid didn't do much good, now I'm saying low light with mulk and ferts in the substrate and enjoy the tank. will see a build thread soon.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

I love this tank, too. But this post seems reads to me that Karen Randall is using something very much like EI?

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/lighting/85949-managing-t5-ho-lighting.html



> ...my 4 (admittedly not new) 55W CF's on my old 75G. I was running the 4 55W CF'S 10 hours per day on the old tank...





> ...I am used to running relaively high light systems, and the tank has plenty of CO2. I can dose nutrients as needed....





> ...my tap water is high in phosphate. (3ppm). In the long run, this isn't a bad thing, it just gives the plants a nice boost when I do water changes, and they slurp it right up...


Lots of folks were standing in the room this weekend while K Randall and Plantbrain agreed much more often than they disagreed about plants, by the way. When was the last time Amano was extremely open about what he's doing?

(Your posts are interesting and I'm taking breaks on my extra day off while messing with my tank. I am totally following you around  )


----------



## K Randall (Nov 23, 2004)

Hi folks,

Since it's my tank (was my tank... at the moment, it has only endler's livebearers and the plants I just brought back from the AGA auction, and even that won't be for long! ) I think I should address some of the comments in this thread.

First, this TANK (as in the GLASS and SILICONE) is over 30 years old. It is worry about that old silicone which has prompted me to tear it down and retire it completely. (anyone want a herp tank? ) The SET-UP, as you see it, without change of substrate, is over 20 years old, NOT 30 years. Just want to be clear about things, and have it honestly represented.

This tank is neither a "Walstad Method" tank, nor is it an "IE method" tank. Check the dates... the tank pre-dates both. If I were into that sort of thing, I guess I'd have to call it a "Karen Randall Method tank"  But I'm not. I am nothing if not a "practical aquarist". I use what works for me, try to learn as much as I can as this hobby continues to grow, and I don't believe that ANYONE (including ADA, BTW) has all the answers.

I know Diana personally, and have seen her tanks in person. What she likes to do in the hobby, and the methods she has developed based on her personal goals are not what I want to do in the hobby. I have no problem with people who choose to use her methods, but they are not methods I would ever choose to use personally. While I have played around a bit with soil-based tanks (not this tank, but others) I have never gotten the growth and lack of algae that I wanted. Now, maybe if I'd played more or longer, I would have gotten the knack of it, though Diana's tanks, when I saw them, all tended toward the monoculture. But I speak to groups on a regular basis, often "fish clubs", and I need to present them with a system that is EASILY replicable and will grow a wide range of plants successfully. IMO, this isn't the best way to do that. Also, make no mistake, Diana does NOT rely completely on soil to support plant growth, she is ALSO adding nutrients to the water column. She just does it via fish food rather than dedicated plant fertilizers.

As far as EI is concerned, I have no doubt that it works. But as Niko has mentioned, I have a problem having high nutrient levels "hanging around" in the water column. This is only seen in highly polluted areas in nature. I believe it is possible to manage such a system, but I guess I'm too lazy.<g>

If my "system" for that tank was based on anything, it was more like a Dupla system in the beginning. It even, originally, had heating cables as an experiment. They failed quite early (a shocking experience!<g>) and as we now know, they really are not necessary. The cables are actually still in the substrate, but haven't been plugged in since the first few months. The substrate is two layers... The bottom layer is a mixture of fine 1-3mm quartz gravel, Dupla laterite and a handful of peat. This was capped with about 2" of plain, washed quartz gravel, also 1-3mm in size) Obviously, through the years, these layers have become mixed. But Dupla laterite was very good in that it settled out of the water faster than a lot of other clay products. Even pulling large swords out of the tank only clouded the water very temporarily.

For water fertilization, my approach has always been to try to find the balance where I fertilize enough that the plants have all they need, but no more. For years I used a combination of Tropica MasterGrow for trace elements, and KNO3 stump remover as my nitrogen/potassium source. As I mentioned, Phosphate is imported with water changes. BUT... and this is the way I like it, by the day AFTER I dosed, I could rarely find any testable amount of any of these in the water column. I learned, over time, that my plants did best with TMG and KNO3 dosed twice a week, and I generally changed about 1/3 of the tank volume every couple of weeks, doing any needed trimming at the same time.

There certainly have been times when the tank has gone for MUCH longer between water changes... and at these times, I've cut way back on water column dosing too. This would slow the growth, but things perked right back up when I went back to a normal schedule again.

More recently, I switched to using Seachem trace and nitrate supplements (TMG became prohibitively expensive, and it's no longer possible to find KNO3-based stump remover) but the basic routine remains the same. Based on the concentrations of nutrients in TMG vs. Seachem, I seem to need to dose more Seachem than I did TMG; this may be related to the chelators the companies use. I believe the one used by Seachem is quicker to break down in the aquarium.

The tank has had good, reliable CO2 supplementation from the beginning. (a German friend helped me set it up WAY before any CO2 equipment was available for aquariums in this country)

If you have any other questions about the tank, please feel free to ask.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Karen, thanks for the explanation, it really helps me to understand exactly how you managed this tank.

And I should do the same. When I say "my Walstad tanks", I should explain that Diana's method was a starting point for me. My light levels are somewhat greater than hers, my circulation rate is greater, my stocking rates are higher, and my biofiltration is MUCH greater. I also do more water changes.

Each thoughtful aquarist starts with a method that appeals to him or her, observes, reads, studies other people's methods, makes gradual changes, and over time develops a method that meets his or her goals in the hobby. Thanks for sharing yours!


----------



## K Randall (Nov 23, 2004)

I suspect that both Amano's way of doing things and mine developed, originally, from what we learned from the Dutch aquarists plus Kaspar Horst and Horst Kipper. Amano has done a masterful job of taking all of that many steps further over the intervening years, which has benefitted us all.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Hey Karen,

Awesome post. Thank you!

I didn't mean to imply that you were influenced by EI by the way, only that in many ways the descriptions of these methods are similar. It's just good gardening, which I think is what you and Michael are saying. 

It really is a wonderful and interesting set up though. 20 years!

Thanks!


----------



## K Randall (Nov 23, 2004)

And I didn't mean to imply thatthere's anything wrong with EI. In its earlier dorm, it is just too work intensive to me. More recently, Tom has modified it over time, so now he suggests that it can be balanced at a number of different levels, based on the amount of light driving the system. This is MORE like what I do, but I still don't keep measurable levels of nutrients in the water column.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Very insightful, Karen, thank you.


----------



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Hey, where's the "Like" button?


----------



## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

While I haven't been able/willing to keep as wide a variety of plants, since I got busy with my business and did very little to my tanks, they've actually done better in many ways. Sure, there is a limit, but plants I had never grown well seemed to do better when simply left alone. Aqua soil does make a dramatic difference, but only one tank has it, the rest have iron slag-based sand blasting substrate. When I did EI religiously, I could never get past the BBA. While it exists, Excel beats it back quite readily and it doesn't seem to grow as rapidly. I do water changes every 2-4 weeks and rarely vacuum the substrate at all. I add dry fertilizers once every week or two mostly by what I feel seems sufficient. I prune a bit but mostly just let things grow as they want. I've gotten rid of plants that take over except for my Tiger Lotus plants. I do have a protein/oily film on my 240g tank that I can't seem to get rid of, but overall things are good.


----------

