# NPT and forrest design possible?



## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

Dear El Natural/ NPT followers,

I'm quite new here on APC. You can find my introduction and the description of my tank as it is right now http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/introductions-greets/75101-new-germany.html.

After reading Diana Walstad's book I felt that her soil-based & low-tech approach very much reflects my idea of aquascaping and I'm planning to change to a NPT next summer.

My question: I'm strongly attracted by a forrest design, you can see some examples I found on the net - as inspiration not for copying Cliff Hui for sure:mullet:. But wouldn't the root hardscape cover the gravel and therefore obstruct exchange from soil to water as I think I have read somewhere?

*So is hardscape in an NPT advisable at all? Do you think this design would be possible in an NPT?*

Denis


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

As long as there are lots of plants and the hardscape isnt massive, it dont think it would be a problem. Just put some strongly rooted plants around it. One thing to consider is that in those images, the plants seem to primarily be compact and low to the ground, as to avoid compeating with the hardscape and give the appearence of a landscape. in most NPTs i have noticed, the plants are left growing wild since you need so many of them, and many reach up to the surface or include floating plants (areal advantage for co2 from the air), but this would not seem to fit your theme, but if you can work it out, definatly go for it


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

You can see my El Natural here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/73533-el-natural-hidden-spring.html

It has quite of bit of driftwood, including a stump and trunk rather like the beautiful tanks you show. It has been set up for 4 months with no problems so far.

We recently had a discussion of the Mattenfilter here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/dallas-ft-worth-aquatic-plant-club/74805-poret-foam.html

You can probably answer some of our questions! For example, I was wondering if anyone had tried the Mattenfilter in an El Natural. To some extent the bio-filtration offered by the dense planting of El Natural would seem to make the Mattenfilter redundant, but I would like to know what you think. Also, is there a simple method for sizing a Mattenfilter? The formula I found in one article seemed needlessly complicated.

Welcome and good luck!

--Michael


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## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

Hello "potatoes",



> As long as there are lots of plants and the hardscape isnt massive, it dont think it would be a problem. Just put some strongly rooted plants around it. One thing to consider is that in those images, the plants seem to primarily be compact and low to the ground, as to avoid compeating with the hardscape and give the appearence of a landscape. in most NPTs i have noticed, the plants are left growing wild since you need so many of them, and many reach up to the surface or include floating plants (areal advantage for co2 from the air), but this would not seem to fit your theme, but if you can work it out, definatly go for it


Thanks for your comments, I see your point: a NPT with floating Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Ceratophyllum demersum, Egeria densa etc. would (from my point of view) disturb this kind of design. As I understand the NPT concept this kind of fast growing plants are mainly needed to get the whole thing started without getting too much algae. After a couple of month it would be possible to add more and more slow growing plants - am I getting this right?

Hello Michael,



> You can see my El Natural here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...en-spring.html
> 
> It has quite of bit of driftwood, including a stump and trunk rather like the beautiful tanks you show. It has been set up for 4 months with no problems so far.


Nice design, I see your point too, your driftwood has only small points with the gravel, so it doesn't disturb the exchange of soil and water. My designs have heavy roots which would cover at approx. 30% of the ground.



> We recently had a discussion of the Mattenfilter here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...oret-foam.html
> 
> You can probably answer some of our questions! For example, I was wondering if anyone had tried the Mattenfilter in an El Natural. To some extent the bio-filtration offered by the dense planting of El Natural would seem to make the Mattenfilter redundant, but I would like to know what you think.


I have posted some comments in the foam thread ... You might be right, that the biological filtration from "Mattenfilters" is less needed in NPT than in traditional tanks, but I have no real experienece/ evidence



> Also, is there a simple method for sizing a Mattenfilter? The formula I found in one article seemed needlessly complicated.


Yes there is a website with calculation tools made by an engineer who promoted the "Mattenfilter" in Germany very much in the last two decades:http://www.deters-ing.de/Berechnungen/Berechnungen.htm

To calculate a traditional form (see attached picture "Traditional Matte") please use the tool "Die erforderliche Mattengröße eines Hamburger Mattenfilters" (Size of foam) 
Q = Size of tank (liter)
n = how many times the aquarium volume is pumped per hour
V = speed in the foam (7.5 is considered best)

To calculate the radius of a bended "matte" as in my tank (and which I think looks better) please see the tool "Die gebogene Matte"

As I wrote in the foam thread: Hope I can help to promote this really great filter concept in the US. We give you foam filters, you gave us Diana Walstad ...

Denis


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

ponchik said:


> As I understand the NPT concept this kind of fast growing plants are mainly needed to get the whole thing started without getting too much algae. After a couple of month it would be possible to add more and more slow growing plants - am I getting this right?
> 
> Denis


Its hard to me say. I have only recently set up my own NPT tanks and i am watching them develop. Most of the time I dont speak out of experience, but out of observation of others (i spend a lot of my free time cruising around forums and absorbing info) How heavily are you going to stock the tank? If you are going to stock it well, slow growers will not suffice. if you just want a light stock, they could, but you need to make sure there are enough nutrients and co2. Like in the first pick, there is some glass thing that i assume is part of a co2 setup (i dont inject co2, so idk) Are you going to go full out low-tech and not add ferts or co2? And what types of plants do you plan on as a final setup? High or low light? Those scapes seem to rely on low, small leaved, compact growth, which i think will be much harder to get with a low light low tech setup. Maybe the 4 leaf clover plant could be a candadit for a carpet, but idk much about it. From my understanding, it is pretty versitle but dosnt have the 4 leaves submerged, just one.

I cant speak as to how the covered soil will do. I would fear it becoming a "dead" spot or it becoming anerobic due to how much there is, but i cant say for sure. My plan of action would defiantly be with plants that have extensive root systems near the stump because the roots will prevent the soil from being anerobic. I would suggest crypts, but idk they would fit in your scape. I would also go for vals in the back, since they have that grassy appearance, and some dwarf chain sword or dwarf sag in the front. sorry i cant be of more help


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## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

Hello "potatoes",

thanks for your further thoughts. I'm planning to go really low-tech with 0.5 w/l (standard light in my tank with removed reflectos I actually have, no CO2 injection (what you see are my remaining CO2 injectors not in use anymore), no fertiliziers (except perhaps small amounts potassium as indicated by some experienced NPT users).

If "stock" is fish, then I'm planning to have a rather light stock, probably 10 - 15 Norman's lampeye (Aplocheilichthys normani) on 180 l/ 48 US gl

To my suprprise I made good experience with Eleocharis parvula (with 0.5w/l + addtional reflectors), which many aquascapers had problems with. But after a couple of moth the ground was exhausted and it started to dissapear. This wouldn't be the case in an NPT - BUT I think it would be quite difficult to get such sort of plants with small roots staying in the recommended gravel (I actually use sand) ... Additionally they won't be able to grow to the nutrients in the soil.

Eleocharis for example is considered to need much light, a tends to grow higher with lower light levels, but I don't know if this will work out with the recommended swimming lpants. Perhaps it is easier to go for more low-light plants like Sagittaria, Cryptocoryne wendtii, etc. after the first couple of month with fast growing plants (Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Ceratophyllum demersum, Egeria densa).



> I cant speak as to how the covered soil will do. I would fear it becoming a "dead" spot or it becoming anerobic due to how much there is, but i cant say for sure.


You are right on this question, I think that's where the recommendation not to use hardscape comes from, but on the other hand many NPT followers do have roots and stones in their tanks, maybe not so massive as in my designs.

Denis


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

You might try placing large, flat rocks under your stump that would not show in the final design to lessen the dead zone.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

vicky said:


> You might try placing large, flat rocks under your stump that would not show in the final design to lessen the dead zone.


That is what I did, except I used scaps of ceramic tile. It was easy to break them to the desired shape, then stack them to the desired depth. I used this where I thought the substrate might be too deep, as well as to support some of the drift wood so that no soil would be under the wood.


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## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

I had a similar solution in mind: putting the root as the main hardscape on a kind of support so the water can flow between the soil and the bottom of the root. Ceramic tile is a great idea! 

But then I would have a gap (approx. 2,5 cm/ 1 inch), how could I cover it up without disturbing water exchange?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Plants! Some low-growing, dense species anywhere you don't want to see the gap. Something rooted like Sagittaria subulata, or you might be able to hide it with moss. Moss grows very thickly around the base of wood in my tanks.


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## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

> Maybe the 4 leaf clover plant could be a candadit for a carpet, but idk much about it. From my understanding, it is pretty versitle but dosnt have the 4 leaves submerged, just one.


Do you mean Marsilea hirsuta (see pic). Would be a good choice, doesn't need to much light (at least much less than Eleocharis), growing rather slow.



> Plants! Some low-growing, dense species anywhere you don't want to see the gap. Something rooted like Sagittaria subulata, or you might be able to hide it with moss. Moss grows very thickly around the base of wood in my tanks.


I have Java moss on the hole foam filter, so I could use some of this :loco:

So I think I will start with fast growing plants I mentioned before and add the also fast growing Sagittaria subulata. Later-on I could add Marsilea hirsuta for the front.

*What is the NPT philosophy*, can I try to reduce Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Ceratophyllum demersum, Egeria densa etc. after a couple of month or are these fast growers meant to stay in an NPT tank permanently?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

You can definitely reduce or remove fast-growing plants after the first few months. Excess nutrients from newly submerged soil will be gone, and the slower growing permanent plants will be established and able to take over the biofiltration. Just do it a little at a time so that the tank system can adjust.

BTW, I really don't think you need to worry about covering 30% of the substrate with driftwood as long as the soil layer is not more than 2-3 cm deep.


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## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

> You can definitely reduce or remove fast-growing plants after the first few months. Excess nutrients from newly submerged soil will be gone, and the slower growing permanent plants will be established and able to take over the biofiltration. Just do it a little at a time so that the tank system can adjust.


That was my plan, putting many floating fast growers and plant rooting middle-slow growers at the same time and after approx. three month slowly reduce floating fast growers over a period of a couple of month, so that fits to your advice. Perhaps I leave some Brazilian pennywort (Hydrocotyle leucocephala) in the tank as I had good experience with them ind I wand to have a plant growing out of the water ...



> BTW, I really don't think you need to worry about covering 30% of the substrate with driftwood as long as the soil layer is not more than 2-3 cm deep.


Soil layer will be 2,5 cm and wood will be put on ceramic tile (thanks for the good idea - perhaps I should glue them to the tank ground with aqua silicone before I put in the soil?)


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

No need to glue the tile, unless you are doing a very tall, narrow stack of small pieces. Even then, I would glue them only to each other but not the tank bottom.


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## ponchik (Dec 1, 2010)

Michael said:


> No need to glue the tile, unless you are doing a very tall, narrow stack of small pieces. Even then, I would glue them only to each other but not the tank bottom.


Oh, then I misunderstood you, I thought you are talking about putting a half of a ceramic tile (10 cm high) vertical/ perpendicular on the ground below the root - that's where my idea with the silicone glue came from. But you meant a stack of ceramic tiles - OK.


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