# What's happening to my HC?



## ncy (May 18, 2008)

I planted this HC about 2 or 3 weeks ago... Half of it seems like it is growing fine - it pearls a few hours after lights on until lights off - but the other half is brown and melting... anybody know what's could be the problem?

10 gallon tank
28w CF lights
pressurized CO2 about 30ppm
PPS Pro ferts + Flourish Iron
ADA aquasoil









Thanks,
nick


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm... what are your tank parameters? Nitrates? Phosphates? Etc...

I'll tentatively go with light deficiency before hearing the fertilizer levels. Keep in mind that HC is actually quite a high light plant so 28 watts might not be enough for it, especially if the CF bulb is old and dim.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

My thoughts are the same as Zappins, nutrient deficiency.


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## ncy (May 18, 2008)

I tested the nitrates a few days ago and came up with about 10 ppm if I remember correctly... I don't have a test kit for potassium or phosphates... I can probably get one at a LFS right? If so, I will go tomorrow to pick one up and post the results back here... 

The bulb is on the older side I suppose for CF. 

Thanks for the help so far... maybe tomorrow I can get a clearer picture of what is happening.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

What makes you think you have 30ppm C02? 

The plants say you have poor C02 from the picture.
I see transparent leaves along with BBA and stag, you have a
C02/flow issue.

Light and nutrients are the easy part, C02, not so easy,
You need either better diffusion and better flow or circulation,
not just a larger bubble count. 

Good C02 with good flow.

Dose NPK and Trace this is easy.
28w over a 10 should be good lighting which requires good C02.

C02 is the most important of all nutrients, and the hardest to get right.
Add some Flourish Excel, and see if the HC and others perk up more,
bet ya they do, this will prove-C02.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Since the HC was planted two or three weeks ago, perhaps the dead parts of the plants are a result of damage in the planting process. Perhaps the healthy looking plants are those stems that are getting established successfully. If this hypothesis is true, the healthy looking plants should take over in a few more weeks. I have never seen a deficiency that looked like what you have. This looks more like damage. If the hypothesis is not true, then the damage will continue to spread.


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## queijoman (Jun 23, 2008)

I agree with Zapins on the light. You just don't have enough. That is exactly like my HC looked as it slowly starved to death (of light). :fear:


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

queijoman said:


> I agree with Zapins on the light. You just don't have enough. That is exactly like my HC looked as it slowly starved to death (of light). :fear:


If 28w of light over 10g is not enough, then how much is enough?

There is enough light over this tank, The plants look C02 deprived
even if the plants are damaged they will rebound and grow immediately 
back to health if you get the C02 up to snuff.

Injecting C02 is not like dumping dry powder or even squirting a few ml
of fertilizer in the water. C02 has to be distributed in sufficient amounts
or the plants will deteriorate as you are seeing.
Adding more light without addressing the C02 issue will result in faster
deterioration of the aquatic plant life.


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## queijoman (Jun 23, 2008)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> If 28w of light over 10g is not enough, then how much is enough?
> 
> .... Come on people!


 Hey now, I don't think anyone needs that kind of comment.

NCY, could you give more information about your setup? It looks like a new, am I right. What fixture do you use? Is it a hood mounted light or do you use nearby lamps?

I'm no expert, but I can see that we have several conflicting views by experts.


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## ncy (May 18, 2008)

In regards to the CO2 question, I do believe I have adequate dissolution, the drop checker is green... maybe even slightly yellowish green, and the ph/kh testing seems to corroborate: KH test reads about 6 and pH reads 6.5 - 7.0. The flow of water in the tank should be decent enough... it's a 10 gallon, and I'm using an eheim 2211 (filter circulation supposed to be 62 g.p.h.) As far as I know there aren't any dead spots in the tank...

I did some research for potassium test kits. If this is necessary, then I will order one but I'd rather not have to spend the $$ unless it will really prove useful, or if someone knows of an inexpensive and effective one.

I see that phosphate test kits are relatively inexpensive... should I go ahead and pick one of these up?

Seeing as I do have the beginning of some algae issues, could it hurt to dose some excel anyway, and if I do... just follow bottle instructions?

thanks,
nick


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

I think Zapins and WolfenxXx are both correct.
CO2 and lighting issues. Could also be from shipping damage as HeyPK stated.


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## gibmaker (Jan 3, 2007)

Same thing happens to me every time I try to grow H.C.. 440 watts of cf light over a 125 gal with pressurized co2 and I dose EI. It never grows, just slowly dies and I would say that I have enough light.(3.52 watts per gal) Maybe it's because my water temp is about 82 F. or maybe because I have really soft water, (discus tank) don't know, but it never grows for me. All other plants seem fine.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You don't need a potassium test. This is not related to potassium. Very few problems arise from potassium overload and potassium deficiency is pretty obvious resulting in pinholes in the leaves surrounded by a yellow area of leaf tissue. The holes start between the leaf veins on old leaves and the holes spread consuming the entire leaf over time.

Nitrates, phosphates, GH, KH and pH would be fine for a start.

I doubt this is a nutrient problem simply because it has only been 3 weeks since the HC was added. Usually HC can last longer than this without nutrient problems in my experience even with low levels of nutrients.

CO2 is important for HC and it will start to look bad if there are deficient levels. The growth tends to get small and dark and is brittle when CO2 levels are low. 

My thinking on the light situation is that I often times see HC in LFS that looks exactly like the above picture. Some stems go brown and yellow and other stems look alright. I think this has to do with emersed grown HC being put in low light conditions. The green stems are probably new submersed leaves that are more tolerant to lower light conditions.

I usually grow HC under 55 watts and it grows quite well. I think the first course of action is to finish doing the tests so we can rule out nutrient problems, then think about getting some more light. Another 28 bulb wouldn't be a bad idea, or 2x13w or even a 36 w bulb (the 36+28w might be pushing it though).


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

It's not the soft water.

If it's in AS I would poke at something else rather than ferts, if anything potassium. HC will get funky on transition but you will see nice growth if everything is good.

Good to see you around Craig! Keep it coming.


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## ncy (May 18, 2008)

I agree, and I thank everyone for their interest/advice, I can really use a lot! 

Apologies, I didn't get a chance to pick up a phosphate test today. I went to a petco and a petsmart on my way home from work but neither place had one (I probably should've know better, but what the heck it was on the way home.) 

I'll go to the GOOD fish store tomorrow!  I can always use an excuse to do that!

Anyway, thanks again for the help. Check back tomorrow if you want full testing details!


Nick


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## CraigThor (Aug 5, 2007)

Well a few questions come up.

The PH/ KH relation is shown to be un accurate as the water/ rocks substrate can give fluctuations and eronerous numbers.

Are you using a high quality 4 DKh solution in your drop checker? 

What is the CO2 setup and BBS, not a huge thing but gives something to work with.

Where did you get this HC from. Emersed HC transitions and dies off as the submerged version starts to grow. Any other plants in the tank?

How old is the bulb and what fixture is it? I run 27 watts over my ADA Mini M and grow HC without a problem. ~30 ppm CO2, ADA Brighty Step 1, ADA AS Amazonia I, Eheim 2211 filter.

How are you diffusing CO2? I use a diffuser and can see the flow through the tank with the micro bubbles of CO2 no dead spots. It did take a couple weeks of playing with Diffuser Location and Intake and Return location to get optimal flow and CO2 coverage.

Do you have and Flourish Excel. I dose some regularly in my tank and the HC really like it as do the other plants. I get pearling with out excel, usually within 1.5 hours of lights on. CO2 comes on 1/2 hour before lights.

How long has the tank been running for. I know I had some plants really sensitive to the AS cycle that melted from the high ammonia level.

Thats all I can think of right now.

Craig


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## ncy (May 18, 2008)

So, I went to the good LFS today... I love that place... anyway, I picked up a phosphate test kit, and some excel (in case).

I did a battery of tests and this is what I came up with this afternoon.

Water Temperature: 78.5 F
pH: 6.5
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10-15 ppm
Phosphate 0 - 0.25 ppm (hard to tell. reference colors are very close)
GH: 5 degrees
KH: 4 degrees

Other specs:

Tank: 10 gallons
Filter: eheim 2211
Substrate: ADA aquasoil
Drop checker: Cal aqua double drop checker


CraigThor said:


> Are you using a high quality 4 DKh solution in your drop checker?


 I'm using their solutions



CraigThor said:


> What is the CO2 setup and BBS, not a huge thing but gives something to work with.


CO2: pressurized - glass diffuser placed beneath filter intake - bubble counter reads approx 1BPS



CraigThor said:


> Where did you get this HC from. Emersed HC transitions and dies off as the submerged version starts to grow. Any other plants in the tank?


I got the HC from the good LFS - don't know if it was grown emersed or not. I followed the instructions on the Tropica website for planting it.

The other plants in the tank are R. Wallichii, R. Nanjenshan, Rotala sp. 'green', Anubias Nana, Lysimachia Nummularia, and Blyxa Japonica - I had some Ludwigia ovalis and Lobelia Cardinalis, but they both died, as has most of the Lysimachia... originally a lot of the blyxa melted, but it has mostly bounced back. Most new growth on the Rotalas and blyxa is a very light green



CraigThor said:


> How old is the bulb and what fixture is it?


Lights: 28w CF bulb (fixture is a coralife, bulb is prob 6-8 months old?)
Photoperiod: 10 hrs
Ferts: PPS pro + iron; dosing 1 hr before lights on.


CraigThor said:


> How long has the tank been running for. I know I had some plants really sensitive to the AS cycle that melted from the high ammonia level.


The tank has been up for about 6 weeks... and I did lose some plants initially... I didn't know they would be so sensitive to the ammonia...

The HC was planted about 3 weeks ago... when the ammonia was still somewhat high.

It seems like I might be on the low side for phosphates? I'm not really sure what my target should be.

What about the excel... will this help get rid of some of my algae too? Here is a picture of the latest offender:


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

If you follow a drop-checker's instructions, they tell you to put tankwater into the dropchecker with a couple of drops of the dropchecker solution. This indicates a 30ppm CO2 injection only if your tank's KH is 4. It's better making or purchasing a known KH4 solution to put into your dropchecker in lieu of tankwater.

imo, you're starting to get good leaf growth on the plants that are left, the initial stuff looks stunted and sickly. I would stick with your current routine for the time being (other than verifying you have a KH4 solution in your dropchecker) and see how it does in a couple of weeks. If other plants were dying and your HC wasn't doing well, but now seem to be doing better, I'd give it a little more time. Given that it was a new setup, that may have contributed to the imbalance causing growth problems.

Did you do frequent water changes initially? I've never used aquasoil myself but I've read that you should do frequent water changes - daily or every other day - to help decrease the time period of the ammonia spikes. (Possibly in one of Amano's Tropical Fish Hobbyist article).


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## CraigThor (Aug 5, 2007)

hooha said:


> If you follow a drop-checker's instructions, they tell you to put tankwater into the dropchecker with a couple of drops of the dropchecker solution. This indicates a 30ppm CO2 injection only if your tank's KH is 4. It's better making or purchasing a known KH4 solution to put into your dropchecker in lieu of tankwater.
> 
> imo, you're starting to get good leaf growth on the plants that are left, the initial stuff looks stunted and sickly. I would stick with your current routine for the time being (other than verifying you have a KH4 solution in your dropchecker) and see how it does in a couple of weeks. If other plants were dying and your HC wasn't doing well, but now seem to be doing better, I'd give it a little more time. Given that it was a new setup, that may have contributed to the imbalance causing growth problems.
> 
> Did you do frequent water changes initially? I've never used aquasoil myself but I've read that you should do frequent water changes - daily or every other day - to help decrease the time period of the ammonia spikes. (Possibly in one of Amano's Tropical Fish Hobbyist article).


Actually if it is the true Cal Aqua Drop checker it includes a Dyed 4dKH solution. I use it in my ADA Drop checker as I have some left.

I also have 4dkh solution also when the Cal stuff runs out.

Craig


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

also, fwiw, I've grown HC without CO2 injection in a 2.5 gallon nano tank and multiple pico tanks - even without Excel. I don't think (at least in my experience) HC is that sensitive to lack of injected CO2.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

hooha said:


> also, fwiw, I've grown HC without CO2 injection in a 2.5 gallon nano tank and multiple pico tanks - even without Excel. I don't think (at least in my experience) HC is that sensitive to lack of injected CO2.


This is actually going to be totally dependent on amount of light, I too can grow it
in a low light tank, well hard to say grow, but it doesn't die, growth is very slow.
But add a little more light and this changes things dramatically.

The forum needs a multi quote tab


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I'll reiterate what HeyPK said, let's keep this civil and to the point. This hobby has multiple people doing well with multiple regimens and philosophies, so opinions will differ from time to time. There is no "ONE ABSOLUTE WAY" to do things in this hobby, or else we wouldn't be getting all the bickering and a planted tank would be as popular and as easy as tossing a plastic castle and some multi-colored gravel in a tank. 

Let's give the OP some courtesy and refrain from any other remarks addressed to any particular reply here or any particular member. Any more internal arguments off-topic will be deleted by us. Why? Because I'm mean and I have the power!!!!!!! 



Wö£fëñxXx said:


> This is actually going to be totally dependent on amount of light, I too can grow it
> in a low light tank, well hard to say grow, but it doesn't die, growth is very slow.
> But add a little more light and this changes things dramatically.
> 
> The forum needs a multi quote tab


I agree it will be light-dependent. Nano's aren't a great example on my part as figuring out 'high-light' in a nano is difficult. My point of view is that the new growth looks good, other than verifying that CO2 is 'adequate' with a proper drop-checker 'calibration' - I think it would be hasty changing things just yet with the way the HC's new growth looks right now.

(As an aside, in a nano without CO2, I've gotten steady growth were trimming only needs to be done every month or so - which is a good thing in my opinion  ).


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I have also seen a nano with low light, no fish and no CO2 additions at all (also was low nitrogen) where the HC wil doing quite well except for being a little pale due to nitrogen deficiency. It was being kept by a biology graduate student at the University of Wisconsin.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

HeyPK said:


> I have also seen a nano with low light, no fish and no CO2 additions at all (also was low nitrogen) where the HC wil doing quite well except for being a little pale due to nitrogen deficiency. It was being kept by a biology graduate student at the University of Wisconsin.


That's very similar to my experiences, initially for the first few weeks only slow growth was noticeable. After that the HC started growing steadily, but I started noticing pale leaves. With a little nitrate added every few days, I'd get good growth again....


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

ncy said:


> So, I went to the good LFS today... I love that place... anyway, I picked up a phosphate test kit, and some excel (in case).
> 
> I did a battery of tests and this is what I came up with this afternoon.
> 
> ...


You have some serious issues here with this tank, with that kind of junk growing
in there is not good.
Your GH/KH look fine if this is the true readings, test kits lie, plant life and algae
never lie.
I still believe your lighting is good too.
If the nitrate is in the 10-15ppm range that is fine also, I would increase the
phosphate, C02 and flow, I don't believe the 2211 is giving you enough.
I personally would go with a 2213 for 10g, no less unless you use lower lighting.

I would also clean all that junk out of the tank and start fresh, dumping Excel
or algae fix into the tank will not remove that infestation you have going on 

Once you get the nutrients N,P,K + mIcro's (this is the easy part) into the water
the rest is light/C02, simple as that, it is the same on every tank in the world
with higher light.
The amount of light determines what level or category your tank is in.
"They" say no tank is the same, I say BS  look at all of amano's tanks
the only thing different is the layout/plant selection/fauna.

Once the lighting hits a certain level of intensity this determines what nutrients
are needed, which will be all of them. NPK, TE, Fe, C02, Ca, Mg, etc with C02
being the hardest nutrient to get nailed down. 
It must be an adequate amount and distributed around the tank for all the plants
to use, not just dissolved, just simply dissolving C02 does not mean it gets distributed
properly.
What size diffuser do you have? that is placed under the intake pipe?
I personally would place the diffuser in the path of flow, and one BPS apparently isn't enough.
As the plants grow and consume, so the need for nutrients especially C02 need to be increased.

Drop checkers will lie also, can you place that drop checker down where the HC is? doubt it.
If you have it placed up higher in the tank and it reads yellow, well lower it, or place in a
back corner farthest away from flow and see what it will read then. plants do not lie,
test kits, drop checkers do. These are just simple tools that give us a ballpark figure, but if
not used properly can cause or misguide us. Did you calibrate your test kits before use
with known solutions?

There are many variables involved, but what makes higher light tanks run smooth is the same
no matter the tank or the size. Plants are plants and their needs are all the same, under
higher lighting some need more C02 than other, for instance, Erio sp. vs Hygro.
These are just a couple of the variables.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

gibmaker said:


> Same thing happens to me every time I try to grow H.C.. 440 watts of cf light over a 125 gal with pressurized co2 and I dose EI. It never grows, just slowly dies and I would say that I have enough light.(3.52 watts per gal) Maybe it's because my water temp is about 82 F. or maybe because I have really soft water, (discus tank) don't know, but it never grows for me. All other plants seem fine.


This is the wrong thread to hijak, but you have way too much light which is
over powering the system. WPG is not a good way to measure light.

Cut your lighting in half and still bump up the C02 a bit, work on getting better
distribution/flow, the C02 must be circulated _well_ under high light, and
cutting your lighting in half will still give you high light.
I bet you have had a mountain of problems with that tank and that much light.

If you need more assistance, start another thread with these quote's, I'll
find you and help you out, no kidding.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

The one thing I'll say from "my experience" is that your problem with HC is not nutrient-based. The reason why I say this is you have a AS-based that is only 6 weeks old. Every tank I have ever setup didn't require anything more than some potassium and micros for the first 6 months. In fact I have setup AS-based tanks without adding anything for months and still had very good growth. I think many will collaborate this. 

That being said, growth of something is very subjective. You HC is growing, but not very well. In a tank were something is marginal, in this case I do believe it is lighting and the growth is slow there is always the possibility that transitional damage and some algae issues can overwhelm any new growth. In tanks such as yours where lighting might not be ideal HC always grows better in smaller stem groupings. In other words you plant individual stems or groups of 2 or 3. This allows more light to get in between the leaves and reduces the changes of algae, etc. In all the HC foregrounds I have done I plant just a few clean stems together and this has worked great in both co2 and non-co2 tanks. I would recommend trimming and getting rid of any dead leaves and replanting into these smaller groups.


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## CraigThor (Aug 5, 2007)

houseofcards said:


> The one thing I'll say from "my experience" is that your problem with HC is not nutrient-based. The reason why I say this is you have a AS-based that is only 6 weeks old. Every tank I have ever setup didn't require anything more than some potassium and micros for the first 6 months. In fact I have setup AS-based tanks without adding anything for months and still had very good growth. I think many will collaborate this.
> 
> That being said, growth of something is very subjective. You HC is growing, but not very well. In a tank were something is marginal, in this case I do believe it is lighting and the growth is slow there is always the possibility that transitional damage and some algae issues can overwhelm any new growth. In tanks such as yours where lighting might not be ideal HC always grows better in smaller stem groupings. In other words you plant individual stems or groups of 2 or 3. This allows more light to get in between the leaves and reduces the changes of algae, etc. In all the HC foregrounds I have done I plant just a few clean stems together and this has worked great in both co2 and non-co2 tanks. I would recommend trimming and getting rid of any dead leaves and replanting into these smaller groups.


I have to agree with the AS releasing alot of nutrients. I have Amazonia I and only dose Brighty Lights and Brighty K once a week, Brighty Step one daily though. Also planting the HC one stem at a time is a pain but the results are amazing.

Here are pics from 1-15-09


































And newer pics from 3-1/ 3-3-09


































The bare area in the middle on the newer pics is where I did some rearranging on the tank but the front right corner hasn't been touched at all. Other than trimming it down every couple of weeks.

Edit the newer pics are right after I mowed the HC down a week ago. The HC is much thicker now I can post pics if you would like later tonite.

Craig


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Well, you surely have a lot of interesting ideas to try. Hope you get a handle on it. I think sometimes it's hard to "dial in" a solution. Some people are naturals at looking at plants and fixing it in 5 minutes. Others, like me, work on it, trying one thing that we think might be the problem, and then the other, if that doesn't fix it. I think if we were all chemists it would be easier!

The good news is that your other plants seem to be coming around. There is no teacher like experience. Hang in there!


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## ncy (May 18, 2008)

Yeah, I'm hangin' in there...and I appreciate everyone's advice, it seems like there is a lot of wisdom coming through here! 
I think the HC (and other plants even) have perked up a bit since yesterday, I dosed some excel and cleaned out my filter. Cleaning out the filter has provided a lot stronger flow through the tank... it seems like this helped and I think the fish like it too. 

I'll see how things go from here, and if the situation worsens you can all count on hearing about it

Thanks again everyone for the tips and feedback! I'm still a beginner at planted tanks so this forum has been like a goldmine! It's good to know the different strategies one can try and what results to expect. Hopefully working through these issues will make it more satisfying when everything becomes balanced.

Nick


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## gibmaker (Jan 3, 2007)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> This is the wrong thread to hijak, but you have way too much light which is
> over powering the system. WPG is not a good way to measure light.
> 
> Cut your lighting in half and still bump up the C02 a bit, work on getting better
> ...


No. never had any other problems with it. H.C. just will not grow. I'm not hijacking his thread I'm just ruling out not enough light with my experiences.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

I would think a high light plant in a ten gallon would need around 40 watts.


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## dj2606 (Oct 15, 2008)

In my experience wpg does not apply with nano aquariums. I currently have 52 watts of t5 on my 10 gallon.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Another interesting point about HC is that, it is after all a stem plant, but many don't treat it as such. If you buy a bunch of stems from a LFS most of us know to break it apart and plant the stems in groups of mayble two or three. This allows water flow, air, etc to get between the stems. HC should really be planted the same way. As Craig and I noted when you plant it this way it seems to do better and this is even more important in a tank where something might be marginal as is the case with the OPs tank.


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