# [Wet Thumb Forum]-fert regime to bring out reds



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Do you ajust your fert regime to bring out reds, and if so how?


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Dose 3x the suggested dosage of excel for a couple days and your plants will go blood red!!! Other then that, I am currently trying to lean out my NO3 to see if I can encourage some more reds.
jB


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by Jason Baliban:
> Does 3x the suggested dosage of excel for a couple days and your plants will go blood red!!!


Hmmm. So that's why the newer growth on my L. aromatica is more green. I recently stopped my BBA-directed Excel dosing. Good call, jB!


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

> Originally posted by BSS:
> 
> 
> > quote:Originally posted by Jason Baliban:
> ...


Yeah,
Its a PITA!! My Macrandra was growing like blood while i was dosing excel. I have since stopped and now it is growing pinkish red. Still nice.....but not that deep deep red. Well at least we know how to make it happen for pics.








jB


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## Pete City (Sep 18, 2004)

I'm not familiar with Excel, can someone explain why this product pulls out reds?


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## Urkevitz (Oct 26, 2004)

I think the Excel keep iron in the chelated form making it more available to plants.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

that makes sense, I don't know of anything in excel that would make plants red. Excel is made by Seachem, and is a organic alternative to C02, providing the chemical compounds that plants derive from C02.


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

I'm not aware of anyone that has discussed why/how it works. I think folks have just noted it. Actually, there is a warning on the outside of Excel that state to not overdose it. But, many planted folks have found that OD'ing it (about 3x for 14 days) seems to be effective in combating BBA. Evidently Seachem has never formally acknowledged this potential algae fighting capabilities. 

So, to the best of my knowledge, the kick to plants provided by excess Excel is all just antedotal.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> Originally posted by BSS:
> I'm not aware of anyone that has discussed why/how it works. I think folks have just noted it.


I came across a web site a couple years ago that considered several reasons why plants developed red colors. They were talking about terrestrial plants but at least some of the reasoning probably applies to aquatic plants.

There are a number of reasons why plants may develop red colors. Different plants probably do it for different reasons, and for each reason there should be a different stimulus.

One of the reasons (and this was particularly for new growth) was that it allowed the plant to develop tissue with a higher carbon:nitrogen ratio. Red colored leaves have less chlorophyll than green leaves and less of the proteins that support photosynthesis. Nitrogen is mostly in the proteins, so less protein means less nitrogen and a higher carbon:nitrogen ratio.

Perhaps some aquatic plants will get redder when the carbon:nitrogen ratio supplied to them is high. That would explain both the observations that plants get redder when nitrogen concentrations are lowered and when carbon supplies (Excel in this case) get higher.

That should not apply to all plants.



> Actually, there is a warning on the outside of Excel that state to not overdose it. But, many planted folks have found that OD'ing it (about 3x for 14 days) seems to be effective in combating BBA.


I haven't heard it reported recently, but some folks have also found that high doses will kill fish.



> Evidently Seachem has never formally acknowledged this potential algae fighting capabilities.


Seachem acknowledged that a long time ago. I think they did it on APD and on their web site. The catch is that Excel is not an algicide; they can't advertise it as one and they are very obscure about why it may suppress algae.

Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

hmmm.... roger, that got me thinking. i havn't tested my co2 in months. i checked it, and it was at 21ppm. very low compared to what i use to run and to what i thought i was running. i then tested no3. it was the usual 17+ or - ppm. i then thought heck this makes sense. my ratio was 21/17 (1.24 in decimal form) not that high. so, i thought about upping my co2 to 30ppm and lowering my no3 to 5-7ppm. this would give me a ratio of 30/7(4.28 in decimal form)

just look at the ratio difference 1.24 compared to 4.28. that's a big difference, almost 4X.

so, i will test this ratio thing keeping all other levels as close to the origional as possible and we'll see if it gets any redder


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

So Roger,

Is the C in CO2 enough for bringing out the reds or must it be an organic C? What is organic C anyway? How do I make myself a home made 'excel' ?? 

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

A. My speculation above is a theory based on limited evidence and shouldn't be taken too seriously. People are free to test the theory but no-one should take it as a fact or even as my recommendation.

B. I doubt that the carbon has to be organic carbon, but organic carbon may be more effective than CO2 or HCO3-

C. Organic carbon is carbon combined in organic molecules; the oxidation state of the carbon is generally less than +4 and the molecules usually feature a lot of carbon-carbon bonds and carbon-hydrogen bonds.

D. I don't know how you would make home-made Excel.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

> A. My speculation above is a theory based on limited evidence and shouldn't be taken too seriously. People are free to test the theory but no-one should take it as a fact or even as my recommendation.


i knew that's what you ment. that's why i'm gonna give it a little test


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

So, Russell, do you have any follow-up to this? It would be interesting to know if it was specific to Excel or could be done with CO2 as well.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

*High CO2 and Low NO3*

Very interesting discussion. It sounds like High CO2 (Excel or Gas) and a low NO3 ratio keeps plants enriched with a red coloration. I'm still not certain why, but it seems like this is the case in my tank. I recently stopped heavy dosing of all ferts, and pumped up the gas CO2. For the past two weeks, my L.aro has turned brick red, when it was mostly green before.

-John N.


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