# Sand over soil



## morphriz (Oct 24, 2005)

Hi all,
I'm looking for references to and expereriences of using sand as the top layer in naturals. I'd like to keep my burrowing critters when I convert.
All help appreciated!
cheers Mattias


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

My experience with two tanks has not been good. However, there were other factors that may have been responsible for the poor plant growth, so I'd like to hear what others have to say.

Sand (as a one inch layer) will make the underlying soil more anaerobic than a gravel cover. So if you go this route, I would make the sand layer thinner than usual, say 1/2 inch (1 cm) or less.

In an earlier AB folder, other hobbyists and I discussed using a soil layer without any cover. This probably wouldn't work all soils (especially peaty types), but it does with regular mineral soil. 

I would suggest finding a natural topsoil and do a Bottle Test with a 1 cm sand cover.

Good luck! I think you'll find something that your critters will like digging into.


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## Cichlid Freq (Jun 18, 2006)

I have not tried it but I think it would depend on the grain size of the sand in question. Also keeping burrowing critters (MTS) will help a lot by keeping the sand turned while burrowing in it. I currently have a 55 gallon tank (not natural) that I am running sand as the only substrate in it, it is about 2.5 inches deep and the only spots I have to watch for anaerobic spots is under any rocks I use in the tank as the snails can not get under them to turn it. I used Pool Filter Sand as the grain size is a little bigger and it does not have the compaction problems of play sand.


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## morphriz (Oct 24, 2005)

Hi again!

Thanks for your replies! I've got two old hightechs that I plan to convert. Both have diggers in them. Since it's experimental with sand I'll just use sand in a thin layer in the smaller tank. I'll get back to you with my results!
//Mattias


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## ADeWilde (Jun 20, 2006)

*Two tanks with sand...doing fine.*

I have kept two tanks with sand over a layer of soil. These tanks have less than an inch of sand with some gravel mixed in for aesthetic reasons and both have large quantities of MTS. I have good growth in the plants in my 75g which is set up this way and I never vacumn clean. Although all of the plants are multiplying their are a couple of plants which show some black roots at times, maybe a sign of low redox conditions, such as Zosterella dubia, polygunom 'K', and for whatever reason the relatively easy plant leucephala would never root in this tank and shrunk until I threw it out.

Although I know that many plants can be grown in sand, between the two tanks I've grwon around 30 species in this substrate, I will not use it from now on because it offers no nutrients and a very low cation exchange capacity (CEC) as well as potentially compacting creating anaerobic conditions. The rotting of roots in some of these plants is a observable synmptom of anaerobic conditions, but I think other plants which aren't showing any visual signs of damage are probably not growing at their fullest potential.

IMO --- Bottom line, you can grow plants in sand but would be better off going with gravel.


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## goldielovr (Apr 12, 2006)

I have three tanks with soil and a topping of sand, two garden soil tanks (a 2 1/2, and a 5g.) with about a half inch of play sand, and a ten g. with store bought tosoil and about a half inch of black sand. The last one is the newest and I can't say too much about it. The two with playsand have been up for more than 6 months and contain mostly stem plants which have put down roots into the sand. Both have nymphea mircantha planted in them and they are doing quite well, one has blyxa japonica rooted into it. There is also elodia and wisteria rooted into them both and neither are turning black. 

I can't say I've had very many plants go black on me, though one did--can't recall what it was now, but I do remember thinking at the time 'this is that rotting root thing Diane was talking about'. Especially when the plant 'plants' itself by extending it's own roots into the sand, there seems to be little issue with the rotting root business. 

I must also say I keep a *lot* of MTSs in the sand of all my tanks and they definitely do stir it up. The tank that generates the most mulm ocasionally gets the sand stirred up with a chopstick between the rooted plants.


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## Tony65 (Jun 3, 2006)

My current tank has just a pea gravel substrate, with a grain size of 4-5mm, and 4 large MTS just showed up one day when I was cleaning it. They still manage to borrow in it ok and are starting to multiply.


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## morphriz (Oct 24, 2005)

Hi Tony,

I've heard lots of tales about MTS digging in funky substrate and surviving strange conditions. Just earlier today I read about a guy who got the MTS to live and breed in saltwater. I've also read accounts of MTS surviving partial freezing. Strange creatures they are 
cheers Mattias


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

I got to ask, what in the world are MTS???


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

MTS stands for Malaysian Trumpet snail.


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Thank you, sorry for hijacking, but I just had no inkling as to what it meant


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## Tony65 (Jun 3, 2006)

For my planned NPT I had settled on using a Dorset pea gravel with a grain size of about 3mm.

However, I can get hold of Caribsea Super Natural “Peace River”, which I like the look of. This is advertised as having a grain size of 1-2mm. 

For comparision, what is the grain size of filter pool sand?


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

I thought I posted to this one already 

I have a 30gal with Onyx sand over soil that is doing well..... its only about 60days old as of now so I cant say anything of the long term...

Some considerations I can offer from my observations:

Lots of MTS are probably a MUST (as others have already stated)

Cory Cats (or similar) are probably a good idea because of their constant sifting through the sand.... hopefully working all that mulm from the fish abit deeper into the substrate

GOOD water movement is a MUST - this will keep the crap stirred up by the corys and such removed from the water column - Im turning my system over somewhere in the ballpark of...hrmm... leme see:

============================================
350GPH from a canister with filter floss only
+ 700GPH from the sump pump (yes this is overkill... )

= 1050GPH
- 25% (For Head and Filtration)

= 840GPH
/ 50 Gallons (Tank + Sump)

= 16.8 Total Volume cycles per hour 
==============================================

Baha... didnt really realize it was that high until now. the Spraybar return for the 700GPH is aimed directly into a corner so the current is spread out. The Canister return is about 1 inch off the substrate and aimed nearly straight at the surface of the water..... hopefully pushing debris up and into the overflow.

A good amount of plant matter, mulm and soil debris ends up collecting on the bottom of the sump like a big sediment trap and is feasted on by MTS, Red Ramshorn and misc Fry.

"........ what is the grain size of pool sand?...."

Heres a cut from http://www.u-s-silica.com/mystic.htm
#
#Physical Properties: 
#Effective Size - .49 mm, .65 mm or .80 mm. (Other sizes available on request) 
#pH Value - 6.5
#Hardness (Moh's Scale) - 7.0
#

Anyways.... I didnt mean to ramble for so long 
Take care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Tony65 (Jun 3, 2006)

Thanks for the info, Justin.

The reason I’m looking at sandy options is because I’ve already got some Cory’s to add to the tank  

I just couldn’t find an Internet source of pool filter sand over here in the UK – and since I live in a flat/apartment I’ve not had much reason to visit Swimming Pool showrooms  

With its larger grain size it seems like the Peace River sand should be ok to use with soil. 
I’ll start with a thin layer and see how things go.


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## Minipol (Jul 4, 2006)

Well i kept 2 big tanks with a sand substrate only.
River sand to be precise which isn't as compact as say playsand.
All i can say is that a lot debris seems to find it's way into the sand.
You can clearly see this at the front.
If debris can get in, so can oxygen.
Never shown me problems with H2S not even when i created this big 10cm+ layer to lower the distance from the substrate to the tank lights.
So i think the sand on soil can work.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

How many MTS do you think you have? I just set up a 125g with 2" of soil under 4" black beauty blasting sand. I am looking for some sort of a rough estimate so I can somehow buy enough MTS to meet the goal...


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## morphriz (Oct 24, 2005)

Get a hold a a few and you'll be fine. They multiply quickly and become as many as they can become in no time at all. They are also easy to ship, just wrap in some wet tissue put in plastic bag and mail it. I've heard accounts that they even survive partial freezing. Tough little buggers


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm, they do sound tough to live through freezing.

I have ordered 125 MTS, so hopefully this will be enough to populate my tank.


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## Tony65 (Jun 3, 2006)

I’d say 125 would be more than enough to populate your tank.

I’m just surprised you have to order them in – they usually seem to arrive as freebies :eyebrows:


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

I would be curious how the burrowing snails fare with regards to shell erosion in a tank with a 4 inch layer of blasting sand.


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## pesciolino (Aug 30, 2006)

Hallo, 
I'm from Italy, in Europe (Germany, Holland) aquarists use few clay or "laterite", under fine sand without problems, (they contain few organic matter). I think also black peat could goes good, because it has higt tannic acids that slow down the O2 consumtion. Many aquaria go well with sand and clay, if carbonate hardnes is low (with 2 dKh very few CO2 is tieds) and there isn't too much light (for exemple 0.25 W/l, or 0,5w/l with a few hours midday pause). 
Bye-bye
P.S. I would like to advise the site www.olafdetersing.de, It is unfortunately available only in German.


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## pesciolino (Aug 30, 2006)

Sorry, wonderful Olaf Deters site is:Aquaristik ohne Geheimnisse - (C) by O.Deters
Bye


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