# The Great 58 Gallon Challenge...Lets work together!



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

This is the great 58 gallon Challenge thread.

I just set up a 58 gallon Oceanic. I have very little time to get it looking nice so I need *your help*. I will post pictures and water parameters. I need your input on how tweak it- fertilizer, water change schedule, trimming, plants everything...

I think this would be a great benefit to beginners who are struggling with their own tanks. It is always good to see what experienced folks recommend and what the impact to the tank is.

So...are YOU UP FOR IT?? Tank's in BAD shape due to neglect. You sure *YOU ARE UP FOR IT??* Well, then, take up the challenge and post your thoughts and recommendations!!

Thanks for your ongoing and valuable support!!


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

*The Tank*

Your mission: To get this tank into show condition!

Your subject:

The hardware:

A 58 gallon Oceanic open top
2 x 250w 10K metal halides (cannot be removed)
CO2 on a pH controller
Chiller
45 gallon sump

The software:

1 inch of proprietary semi-organic substrate
3-4 inches of akadama substrate
driftwood
plants to be listed separately

Parameters:

pH = 7.8
temp = 76
GH = 3 dH
KH = 3 dH
NO3 = 10 ppm
PO4 = 0 ppm
Fe = .1 ppm
K = 5 ppm

The tank:


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## Sir_BlackhOle (Jan 25, 2004)

I will be very interested to see what develops with this tank. I am getting my first large tank, a 75, in the next couple of weeks. I want to turn it into a planted tank, but dont have too much experience other than my ten gallon. Hopefully I will be able to follow along and pick up lots of great ideas by watching this tank develop


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

Having 4.31 wpg sounds like a disaster waiting to happen for someone who does not have time! But let's see what we can do. 

#1 clean out the algae... get in there one day and take off as much of that fluffy green stuff as you can

#2 Get more plants... fast growing ones. Heteranthera zosterifolia (stargrass), Limnophila aquatica (giant ambulia), Hygrophila difformis (wisteria) are all good fast growers. Even Riccia is excellent. 

#3 What is your dosing regime like? Judging by your water parameters, I would start by increasing the GH to 5-6 and the KH to 4-5. Your plants will appreciate the extra calcium and magnesium. Epsom salt (MgSO4) and Calcium carbonate should do the job.

Your iron is too low. This 0.1 ppm residual amount is simply too low for tanks with as much light as one. I would start by doubling and then tripling the amount of iron/traces you add to this tank. You should see a tremendous boost in the health of many of your plants --especially the Eusteralis and Rotalas.

Your phosphate is zero. Gradually increase this value to about 1 ppm. You should see a serious dieback of the algae by increasing the phosphate. Initially, you will see the plants use up all the phosphates very quickly as they are starved of this macronutrient.

If you are dosing KNO3 (nitrate), I wouldn't even worry about adding K2SO4 (potassium). You should be getting enough potassium by just dosing the high amounts of KNO3 you will need in this tank.

Aquascaping wise: tilt the upright wood/moss pillar to the right so as to complement the lower branches on the other side  It will create an interesting path.

Carlos


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

*58 Gallon*

Hi Art,

This is exciting. I second Carlos' dosing suggestions, upping K, Fe, P. Too bad we can't actually help you do the work.

Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

I'm working up comments to Carlos.

Anyone who wants to help with the actual work is welcome to come to Miami, FL where it is currently mostly sunny and a cool 78F.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Carlos,



tsunami said:


> Having 4.31 wpg sounds like a disaster waiting to happen for someone who does not have time! But let's see what we can do.


Why is it a disaster waiting to happen?



tsunami said:


> #1 clean out the algae... get in there one day and take off as much of that fluffy green stuff as you can


Some of it lends itself to easy siphoning. Some of it is stringy green and harder to remove. Should I use a toothbrush or something to get that out? The last bit is stuck REAL tight to the leaf edges and seems to be gray-green in color. How can I deal with that?



tsunami said:


> #2 Get more plants... fast growing ones. Heteranthera zosterifolia (stargrass), Limnophila aquatica (giant ambulia), Hygrophila difformis (wisteria) are all good fast growers. Even Riccia is excellent.


I have heteranthera zosterifolia but it is growing horizontally along the substrate rather than vertically. I'll post a picture. Not sure why that is happening. I usually shy away from the cabomba and ambulias because their whirls get full of algae. Are you sure? I'll look around for some hygrophila.

Currently in the tank are:


Eustralis stellata
Heteranthera zosterifolia
rotala wallichii
rotala indica (red)
Lysimachia nummularis
Micranthermum umbrosum 
Glossostigma elatinoides
Echinodorus tenellus
Cryptocoryne retrospiralis
Cryptocoryne wendtii



tsunami said:


> #3 What is your dosing regime like? Judging by your water parameters, I would start by increasing the GH to 5-6 and the KH to 4-5. Your plants will appreciate the extra calcium and magnesium. Epsom salt (MgSO4) and Calcium carbonate should do the job.


What's the importance of bumping up the GH/KH? How do I know how much to add to increase the levels? Where do I get calcium carbonate? I have calcium chloride, is that the same thing?



tsunami said:


> Your iron is too low. This 0.1 ppm residual amount is simply too low for tanks with as much light as one. I would start by doubling and then tripling the amount of iron/traces you add to this tank. You should see a tremendous boost in the health of many of your plants --especially the Eusteralis and Rotalas.


I have Kent Fe and Seachem Flourish Trace. How do I double everything? Should I just double the recommended dosage amounts?



tsunami said:



> Your phosphate is zero. Gradually increase this value to about 1 ppm. You should see a serious dieback of the algae by increasing the phosphate. Initially, you will see the plants use up all the phosphates very quickly as they are starved of this macronutrient.


Wow!! :shock: 1 ppm phosphate! Won't the algae explode with this much? Especially in light of the increase other nutrients?



tsunami said:


> If you are dosing KNO3 (nitrate), I wouldn't even worry about adding K2SO4 (potassium). You should be getting enough potassium by just dosing the high amounts of KNO3 you will need in this tank.


How much should I be targeting?



tsunami said:


> Aquascaping wise: tilt the upright wood/moss pillar to the right so as to complement the lower branches on the other side  It will create an interesting path.


The wood is actually a vertical piece with a hole in the middle of it. I jammed in a branch of wood in that hole and now it see-saws horizontally. You are suggesting to tilt the vertical piece so that it leans to the right instead of the left?

Carlos, thank you for all your suggestions and sorry about the number of questions I asked above. Your help is most appreciated by all of us.


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

Some of this reiterates Carlos' comments. Sorry for redundancy.

Number one, get rid of the algae. Cut, trim, scrape, clean, remove all of it you possibly can- from equipment, rocks, wood, plants, all of it. This is gonna take some work- the tank looks pretty bad. Remove the heavily infested plants and heave them-anything you can't clean off, throw away. Then change at least 50% of the water, turn the lights out, turn the CO2 off, drop in an airstone and bag the tank in something opaque and do a 4-to-5 day blackout.

The day you're ready to turn the lights back on, go to the LFS or get trimmings from one or several of the board members sent to you, or a local aquarist's trimmings. Unbag the tank, clean off anything you see that needs it, do another 50% wc, set up your CO2 to hit about 30ppm (nice to have a controller!), and plant the absolute living fool out of that tank, and make sure a good percentage of the plants are nutrient sinks. Even some floating ones would be nice to help with all that light. Other than CO2, an initial heavy overplanting is my best defense against new tank syndrome (algae, not NH4).

That would be my initial action.

Next would be to establish a dosing routine. Your water parameters are screaming "algae!". Carlos has already gotten that off to a fine start. Although there's more than one way to skin a cat, I think all his advice is quite sound. The only thing I might differ in would be the K+ dosing.

I've never heard of your substrate, so I wonder if it affects your water parameters the way Flora Base does. I'll be setting up a 65 not long from now that will have many similarities with your 58, so I will have lots of opportunity in the near future to take my own advice or eat my own words. :wink:


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

> Why is it a disaster waiting to happen?


At these lightings, tanks become increasingly unstable due to plants absorbing nutrients much more quickly. You may get away with a couple caps of Flourish per day on a tank with 2 wpg, but on a tank with 4+ wpg, you will need to carefully monitor your nitrate and phosphate levels, plus increase your iron/trace dosing almost exponentially. If you don't strike a fine balance between all the nutrients, you will get algae and stunting plants in short order.



> Some of it lends itself to easy siphoning. Some of it is stringy green and harder to remove. Should I use a toothbrush or something to get that out? The last bit is stuck REAL tight to the leaf edges and seems to be gray-green in color. How can I deal with that?


A tooth brush would be good or even just use your bare hands to pull out the strands. For seriously infected leaves, I would just trim off the leaves. It won't hurt the plant. They will grow back.



> I have heteranthera zosterifolia but it is growing horizontally along the substrate rather than vertically. I'll post a picture. Not sure why that is happening. I usually shy away from the cabomba and ambulias because their whirls get full of algae. Are you sure? I'll look around for some hygrophila.
> 
> Currently in the tank are:
> 
> ...


The Heteranthera zosterifolia is creeping along the substrate for a combination of reasons 1) your low phosphate levels and 2) your intense lighting. I have experienced stargrass creeping along the substrate, voluntarily, in a tank with 1.75 wpg. I tested PO4. None. Upon adding some phosphate, the stargrass went from a dark green carpet back to a more upward growing plant with lighter green leaves in a matter of days.

Limnophila sessiliflora (Asian Ambulia) should easily be able to fend off algae when growing well. Just start adding ferts as explained below, and its growth rate will be incredible.

Good nutrient sinks, IME:

Glossostigma elatinoides 
Heteranthera zosterifolia 
Limnophila sessiliflora
Limnophila aquatica
Hygrophila difformis
Rotala indica



> I have Kent Fe and Seachem Flourish Trace. How do I double everything? Should I just double the recommended dosage amounts? [/img]
> 
> For your tank, slowly rank up the nutrients... I prefer Flourish Iron+Flourish Trace, but with your ferts I would start off at least with 20 mL weekly of Kent Fe with an extra helping of Flourish Trace 15-20 mL weekly. Spread these amounts throughout the week --at least 3 times a week. Part of the reason for splitting it up throughout the week is to make sure there is a constant, steady amount of iron in the water. At these high lighting intensities, a lot of the iron becomes unavailable to plants due to photoreduction. You want to keep things steady --not have a flood of iron in the beginning and then none by the end of the week.
> 
> ...


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

*Well?*

OK Art,

Now show us your algae-free tank, and tell us exactly how you did it. I need to do the same things with all of my aquariums. :wink: ](*,)

Steve Pituch
anxiously awaiting an algae free world (is there algae in Heaven?, Hell?)


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

When i started dosing PO4 algae did not slow or speed up growth. But i was adding 4-8 drops of monosodium phosphate and disodium phosphate. Now i add an entire ml (27dropps approx) and algae has been slowing down i think. Just my experiences... also the first 3 weeks of starting phosphates my tank went through 17ppm NO3 every 5-6 days........ its slowed down a little to 11-12ppm from then.


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Shane,

I am trying the same thing. The first time I ever added PO4 at .1 ppm I got a mini-explosion of algae, but that was a long time ago. I have been dosing 1/3 tsp enema (1.65 ml) in a 75 gallon for about 1 ppm for quite a while. The algae is a problem but not an epidemic. I just went to pure KH2PO4 at 2 ppm to see if there is any diference.

If you are using the enema look at my website for some calculations that might be helpful to you. I found the drops from the enema bottle very unreliable so I use a measuring spoon.

I also just switched from .2 ppm Fe via Flourish to .5 ppm from CSM+B. Somehow I don't feel that adding more chemicals will increase algae, but I certainly have never experienced a decrease like some of the "Gurus" have on this forum and the APD list have. Still waiting and working for that miracle.

Steve Pituch


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

*The great 58 gallon challenge*

(I am weighing in on this thread for the first time)

When I saw the picture, my first thought was that the best thing would be to kiss the remaining plants goodbye and throw in about two gallons of bleach, mix well, cover, and let stand for a week. Then retrieve the driftwood, boil the gravel and start over with plants free of hair algae. That's what I would do, because I like to work with plants free of hair algae.

After a second look, I noticed that some of the plants look mostly dead, and some are still alive. Incredibly, the healthiest looking plants seem to be _Eusterialis stellata_. Is that what those long-leaved red plants are? If Eusteralis is thriving in that scene of general devastation, that tells interesting things I didn't know about Eusteralis. I thought it was supposed to be a difficult plant that would curl up and die on you if you forgot to fertilize it every day or if you gave it a dirty look!

There is a carpet of Glossostigma that looks completely white, and I assume it is dead, rather than green but overexposed in the picture. Also the Anubias tied to the driftwood looks white, and one of the plants has decayed leaves. If that white color is real, not over exposure, I am wondering what could kill Glosso and make the Anubias look so bad. Very high accumulations of fertilizers? No CO2 for several months along with the very high light levels? If one or the other of the above is what actually occurred, how does the Eusteralis manage to look so healthy?

If I had to fix up the tank with the hair algae still present, I would pull out all the hair algae I could with tooth brushes, bottle brushes, etc. I would give it a 100% change of water and adjust the new water, if it needed it, to a good GH level using lime. I would add traces, iron, a small amount of K+ and MgSO4. I would plant it fairly heavily, if possible with H. polysperma and/or H. difformis, and maybe also with some water sprite. I would put in a crew of shrimp, Siamese algae eaters and whatever else eats hair algae. I would return the light not at the original 500 watts (8.6 watts per gallon???) but at much lower levels to start with. Since the metal halide lights can't be removed, I would shade the tank with something that cut the light intensity down to what you would get at around 2 watts fluorescent per gallon. If the plants are growing nicely, green water is not threatening to take over, I would raise the light levels. I would not go all the way up to the highest level until the tank was packed with plants. If the fast growing plants keep algae, including green water under control, I would gradually trim them back to allow the fancier plants to take up more room.

At the start, I would keep nitrates quite low until the plants were well established. Getting 'em a little hungry for nitrogen at the start has always worked well for me. They establish well and grow bigger root systems. Then I up the nitrates. It is important that other nutrients are at good levels at the start. Just make them work a bit for their nitrogen.

From the start, CO2 should be kept up at 20 to 30 ppm.

If I were doing it myself, however, I would eliminate that hair algae for ever by bleaching the bejesus out of everything and start with hair algae-free plants. Other types of algae---green water and bluegreens are more easily controlled.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Hi folks,

Well...thanks for all your comments. Here's what is going on.

I removed as much of the algae as possible. Did a 50% water change and adjusted nutrient levels to the following:

GH: 6
KH: 5
NO3: 15 
PO4: 1
Fe: 1
K: 10

Some comments on the state of the tank:

Unlike what the pictures is showing, the glosso is alive and well and spreading. The picture is overexposed. The glosso is not as green as I would like, but it is not white. Anubias are not doing well although they are thowing new leaves. All red plants are incredibly red including the E. stellata.

I would like to show the newcomers to the hobby that may be experiencing something similar, it is not necessary to throw in the towel. Patience and appropriate nutrients will turn tanks around including this one. It just takes time.

I do have a question to throw out there for you all. I had a hard time determining how to increment my nutrient amounts. I had 5 ppm potassium and needed to get it to 10 ppm. How can I calculate how much to add to adjust it up to 10?


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Using K2SO4???

Per chuck's page:

1 gram of K2SO4 in 50 gallons will add 2.4 ppm K.

5 ppm/2.4 = 2.5 grams K2SO4

Steve Pituch

PS

You do have Chuck Gadd's MS Windows program, don't you?
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Steve,

Thanks. What about increasing .5 ppm Fe?


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

Steve i use Phosapha soda, probably the same thing but i do not think its the same concentration. I use an old flourish despenser to get my 1ml. I only get one form of algae now, thread algae which is easily removed. So i would say overdosing definantly helps with the plants health and it makes the more annoying algae's go away. I would agree that my tank has improved but my experience is similar to steve's in that i have not had the miraculas turn arounds a lot of people report. Good luck art sorry if i brought things off topic.


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

*IRON*

Art,

Tell me what you are going to use to up the Fe. What percentage is the Fe in the concentrated solution (or ppm), or whether you want to use CSM or CSM+B.

Do you want a .5 ppm Fe boost from what you have?

Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Steve,

Thanks. I use Kent Fe that says it is 1% chelated iron.


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

*IRON*

OK, I hope I have this right.

Kent FE = 1% Fe = 10,000 ppm Fe = 10,000 mg/L = 10 mg/ml

___________________________________________________

You want a .5 ppm boost (increase) in the tank.

.5 ppm = .5 mg/L

You've got 50 gal x 3.77 = 189 Liters

So you need .5 x 189 = 94.3 mg of Fe
___________________________________________________

(94.3 mg Fe) / (10 mg Fe/ml) = 9.43 ml of Kent FE solution

Use 10 ml Kent FE to get .5 ppm increase in 50 gallons.

Good luck,
Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Steve,

That's very impressive!  Where are you getting the 10,000 mg/l that you begin with?


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Oops! I have potassium chloride to increase K. Chuck's doesn't do KCl. How can I calculate what KCl will do to my K levels?


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

*Muriate of Potash*

OK,

KCL, Muriate of Potash. The bag says 0-0-60. It also says K2O=60%. MW of K=39.1, of O=16. K2O is 83.0% K. That means the bag is .6 x .83 = 49.8% K.

5 ppm = 5 mg/L

You have 50 gal x 3.77 = 189 liters

For 5 ppm K you need 5 x 189 mg K = 945 mg K

945 K/.498 = 1898 mg KCL

To raise K 5 ppm in 50 gallons add 1.9 grams of KCL.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way,
a million ppm = 1 or 100%
so 100,000 ppm = 10%
so 10,000 ppm = 1%

If you remember this it is easy to figure out percent solutions. For example, Flourish is .39% Fe. Since 1%=10,000 ppm, then .39%=3900 ppm. So Flourish is 3900 ppm Fe.

Regards,
Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Excellent!!!

```
=D>
```


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

P.S. MW= molecular weight.


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

*Calculations*

By the way, I have updated my fertilizer calculation page with some of what we have been figuring out here. Its at:
http://users.ev1.net/~spituch/Chemicals/chemicals.html

egards,
Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Folks,

It has been 3 days since I last tested the water and adjusted the water parameters as described above. I took a reading this morning and this is what I found:

NO3 = 10 ppm
PO4 = .3 ppm
Fe = .03 ppm
K = 9.1 ppm

This means that in 3 days, NO3 dropped 5 ppm, PO4 dropped .7ppm, Fe dropped .07 ppm and K dropped only .9 ppm.

Algae growth has sped up over these three days.

Tanks seems to be sucking up PO4 and Fe pretty well. NO3 is also being used considerably.

What do you think?


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Art,

I would do a 50 % water change and add 2 ppm PO4 and .5 or 1 ppm Fe. I would all add 15 ppm NO3 and 10 ppm K.

Do you know how much Ca and Mg is in the water?

Notice I said to add the amounts and not to test and then add until you get the right amount.

If I were you I would be adding the recommended amounts twice per week and doing a 50% weekly water change to ensure that the max concentrations don't go above two times the weekly dosage.

I would only be using the test kits to test how much of each chemical was consumed by the plants so that you could determine which chemical might be limited. You then use this info to readjust your semi-weekly doses.

I wouldn't use the test kits to determine how much of a chemical to replace. For example, I would not add only .9 ppm K because the test kit measuremnt "suggests" that .9 pm was consumed. It is better to do the 50% water change to "reset" the tank, and then add a measured amount. Otherwise you are relying too much on the accuracy of the test kits. True you may have epensive test kits and a neat way of measuring the tint of the test solution but the test kit itself may be off a bit. The use of the kits to measure the "difference" in readings between when you first added the nutrients and then several days later will actually give you more useful info.

Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Steve,

Thanks. Excellent suggestions and comments on the kits. This is the way test kits should be used.

You to document your suggest clearly, you suggest that I change 50% of the wate weekly and add 2ppm of PO4 based on 50% of the water, correct?


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Art,
T. Barr, from all I've read, seems to recommend: 

1 to 2 ppm PO4, twice per week
.2 ppm Fe, twice per week
10 ppm NO3, twice per week
Don't bother adding any K, there is enough in the KNO3
Current thinking is that 1 to 2 ppm Fe twice per week is beneficial to many plants and will not cause an increase in algae so I would go with this.

All of these are twice per week using the full H2O volume (I have been using 50 gallons for your 58 galon tank.

The 50 % water change is just before you do one of the nutrient additions.
_________________________________________________

Have you done anything with the light intensity? At 10 watts/gallon it seems that this must have been a salt water tank designed to grow algae. We might be able to attenuate the light above the tank if you give us more details.

I think that if you don't reduce the light, even if you get control of the tank, it will eventually crash.

Steve Pituch


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Steve,

:lol: It was a reef tank meant to grow Acros!

Yes, yes. You've all convinced me, the light has been reduced to 1 x 250w MH with a 10K bulb.

I do have some questions on your dosing recommendations. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that I do a 50% weekly water change and then add 2 ppm of PO4 and .2 ppm of Fe based on 50 gallons of water. What about trace dosing (I dose traces separately from Fe)?

Starting another post on Tom Barr's method.


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

On the Fe, I think with the light you've still got (250W), that you try 1 or 2 ppm Fe.

I have never dosed micros separately. You'll have to give me the concentrations and I will have to figure out an equivalent amount based on Flourish.

Steve Pituch


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

2 ppm PO4 is completely unneccessary, although it won't hurt. Your plants won't eat that much and it'll just end up in the substrate. .2ppm dosed daily will suffice or 1ppm for the week. The biggest issue in screaming high light tanks is iron. The lights and high O2 content are hell on it and once it gets zapped in the water column it needs to become made available again by a trip into the substrate where the bacterias can get at it. Or, you could add liquid humics (if you dare) to the water column which would probably help. Daily dosing is best for Fe. 

As for NO3... The tank will eat 20ppm of NO3 per week, *maybe*, but I doubt it. You find 5ppm in 3 days which is more like it. 10ppm gets you to day 6-- day 7 water change and add NO3 if you have to. The plants will only consume a fraction of NO3 or you'd be removing so much plant matter that you could go into business. Bacterias (both filter and substrate) and algaes will consume the majority of it. It's wasteful and leads to algae. 10ppm will get you through the week no problem. As long as you do 50% water changes, you won't need to add anywhere near 20ppm per week, and I suspect there's at least a little in your tap water. It's simply not neccessary to maintain 5-10ppm NO3, in fact I find it troublesome. Running out for a day or 2 will not hurt.

The "trick" to getting high light tanks to work is finding a way to reliably deliver Fe. For a 50g (net volume) tank with all that HID, I'd add 10ML of a trace mix plus 10ml of liquid iron, .2 ppm PO4, daily. Add 10-15ppm K and 5ppm NO3 at water change dpending on tap water, and if you need it, add another 5ppm NO3 mid-week. I know it sounds like alot, but you chose the lights  ....


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I was thinking that, if you have a tank set up with something like 8 watts per gallon, than it might be logical to put plants in it that come from relatively still waters with high light and low CO2. These would be the oldest plants in the hobby---the ones that never grow emersed---Vallisneria, Elodea, Ceratophyllum, Najas, etc. They would do well, and they would out-compete the hair algae. You would have to add a little CO2 unless a pH of over 9 does not cause concern. The plants would not be harmed, but most fish definitely do not like that.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Pictorial update:

Here'a pic of the tank before I siphoned out algae and did a water change. Interestingly, the beard algae turned white, then grey and now is detaching itself from the plant leaves. A simple pull detaches the mass from the leaf edge.

I've started to get vibrant green thread algae that is extremely easy to pull out with a toothbrush. There is no blue/green or other type of algae that I can see. Nevertheless, algae growth has slowed considerably, while plant growth has increased.

The tank is starting to turn the corner.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Looking better Art! It's got its own dark, brooding, feel to it with all that algae and I find I like it.


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

Seems like more algae should have been manually removed. When my tank gets that bad I turn the gravel over, so that any gravel that has algae is in the dark. I plant the plants so that most of the algae covered stems are under the substrate.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Why not add Cherry Shrimp, and the rest of 'cleaning crew'?


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Really what needs to happen is to tear down the whole thing and start fresh. Lots of bleach and elbow grease. Seems like a waste of effort to try and clean that up...

Yuck.


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## jerseyjay (Jan 25, 2004)

Also want to point out poor choice of plants to battle this advanced algae.

Do I see _E. stellata_ there ???

What about _H. polysperma_, Wisteria and many other fast growers ?


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

I dont think we should be so critical. Even if it is not a complete success it is very valuable if you ask me what he is doing. I am interested to how things happen throughout the week. And the comments are helpful too.


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

I would find it highly interesting if Art can nutrient-dose his way out of that mess without really having to go so far as to break down the tank. I've actually done it myself, but not a mess this big. On the other hand, I think it can't work without doing everything necessary to turn things over on the algae, and one of my primary rules is to plant heavily from day one. Blank spaces taken up with nutrient sinks.

I agree with Jay. Get some clean fast growing plants in there and worry about aquascaping later.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Folks,

This tank was set up the way it was in order to help newbies. Many of the mistakes are typical for newbies. Wrong types of plants, not enough plants, etc.

I am trying to document how things can be turned around. Correct dosing, adding plants, water changes, etc. will turn the tank around. I think this will prove helpful to all who see it.

Please do not advise a newbie to throw everything out and start from scratch. A newbie will just give up then. Yes, it is more work, but any tank can be turned around with patience. 

The improvement so far has been tremendous. I've witnessed beard algae literally die. Very cool. The algae that is now present is easy to remove with a little elbow grease. The plants are much healthier.

In a few months, you will see a tank that is mostly algae free with very healthy plants.


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

I dose according to the estimative index, and the only algae that is present is thread and the circular glass algae(I cant remember what its called now sorry). That algae for the most part is really easy to remove and the plants are a bunch healthier. I think plant density is really key. there is much less algae before i do a massive pruning than after. Unfortunantly i am in the phase that i trim the plants down to the gravel almost.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Since lowering the light levels, nutrient uptake has slowed considerably. My nitrates, phosphates and potassium are off the charts. I'm taking remedial action by doing a large water change and cutting down on the weekly nutrient inputs.


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

Hey, Art!

Whatever happened with this tank?


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Still there. I'll take some pictures of it once I do a little trimming. No algae at this point but the plants are a little unkept.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> "No algae at this point"


 Art, this is incredible! The last pic you showed it was covered with algae!. You've got to post some pics even if plants are sloppy. You should write an article on the history of this endeavor and call it something like 'Planted Tank Resurrection'.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Bert,

That's why I started this thread. When I set up the 58, I tried to recreate some of the things that someone may do wrong when setting up their first (or second ;-) ) planted tank. 

I find it too common now-a-days that people are told to tear-down their setup and start new when they are battling algae. IMHO, that is very discouraging and sends people the wrong message. You didn't hear that back in the day. I guess with so many people able to start and maintain low-algae tanks, those that struggle with it want a quick fix.

The message I want this thread to convey is that you don't have to tear down your tank when algae breaks out. It can be conquered with patience and doing the right things consistently.

I will post a picture soon.


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## Corigan (Mar 15, 2004)

Art_Giacosa said:


> The message I want this thread to convey is that you don't have to tear down your tank when algae breaks out. It can be conquered with patience and doing the right things consistently.


Amen. I am always a little astonished when I see someone just say.. "Should I just rip it down and start over?". This is never an option in my mind. I've seen way to many instances (and in personal experience) that if the proper steps are taken to correct the problem/problems (and plenty of patience is asserted) that success is always a possibility.

Always boggled when seeing something to the effects of.. "I just threw out all the plants and am going to start over."

Can't wait to see the updated pics Art, great thread.

Matt


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Art, whatever happened to your tank. You meant it as a method 'to save neglected tanks without having to tear them down', any updates? :wink:


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## K Randall (Nov 23, 2004)

*Algae Recovery*

I thought I'd share a couple of photos of my 125G tank to show how a tank can recover from a major algae infestation. While the plants in this tank were clearly growing better than the ones in Art's tank at the beginning of this thread, the tank had been allowed to sit, completely untended, for a couple of months while life got crazy, as it does with kids and families. As you can see, the water hadn't even been topped up, and the areas circled in red actually had hair algae growing in thick mats right up to, and mashed against the front glass. (I have close-ups too, if people want to see how really bad it can get ;-)

The second picture taken no more than 6 or 8 weeks later. All I did was what I know I should have been doing anyway.<g> I trimmed, I started doing regualr water changes, I removed as much algae as I could by hand, but I wasn't fanatical about it. I fertilized as I knew I should. I certainly didn't tear it down, bleach it or even do a black-out on it. Before long the tank was in pretty good shape again. One of the things I _love_ about planted tanks is that they are INCREDIBLY tolerant of abuse.<g>

This tank has been set up for at least 5 or 6 years at this point. This was not the only time that life got away from me, and the tank was not well maintained. These pictures were taken at least 2 or 3 years ago. I just went to look at the tank to make sure I was telling the truth, but there is NO thread algae to be seen anywhere in the tank. In fact, despite periods of neglect, I think that is the ONLY time I've seen any amount of thread algae.

If this doesn't work, I'll try again... this is the first time I've ever tried to post a photo to a forum!

Karen


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Algae Recovery*

Karen,

Thats for that post.. before/after things like this are really helpful to those new to hobby, planted tanks can make you want to rip your hair out every once in a while - its nice to see recovery is possible. I haven't done anything so drastic but a few minutes a day and good water changes/ferts can really clear things up...

Jeff


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## Sir_BlackhOle (Jan 25, 2004)

I have let my tank slide before and ended up with a mess after a few months...a couple hours of hard work and getting back to the routine with it shaped it right up! Any updated pics of your tank Art?


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Art,

That's excellent news! I'm glad to hear that everything worked itself out in the end. If that had been my tank I wouldn't have had the patience to sit it out. That much algae would have thrown me off the deep end. Please post new pictures soon.

Phil


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