# Plants and Ammonium



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi Everyone,

In her book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ (Chapter 7), Diana Walstad talks about the use of aquarium plants to take up ammonium from the water. Section 4 within this chapter is entitled "Plants and Nitrifying Bacteria Compete". The essence of this is that plants prefer to uptake ammonium instead of nitrate. So, I did a very basic experiment in order to probe deeper into this...

In an _illuminated_ tank containing Java and Congo Fern, I was able to show that NH4 dropped from 2 mg/litre to 0.4 mg/litre over a period of just four hours! Late yesterday evening, I then added ammonium chloride to raise the NH4 to just under 3 mg/litre and left the tank overnight in darkness. At 12:40 pm today, I measured NH4 and it was still around 3 mg/litre. What could be the explanation for this? Is it because my plants only absorb NH4 in the presence of light, i.e. when the plants are photosynthesizing?

I chose to post here in the _Filtration_ section as I am interested in exploring the use of aquarium plants to possibly replace biological filtration employing nitrifying bacteria.

Any suggestions welcome!

Yorkie


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

yes, photosynthesis. Plant do take in other things at night like O2 and I think Phosphate.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> yes, photosynthesis. Plant do take in other things at night like O2 and I think Phosphate.


Hi mistergreen,

Thanks for your reply.

I am continuing with this experiment. At 1845 this evening, I measured NH4 and it was 1.5 mg/litre. In other words, a 50% reduction from yesterday. I should qualify my use of 'NH4'. It is a JBL NH4 test kit that I'm using but it actually measures total ammonia (NH3 + NH4).

I would like to have Diana Walstad's input on this if she can spare me the time. Is there a way in which I can draw her attention to this thread?

Thanks in advance.

Yorkie


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi Everyone,

What happens if I try @dwalstad?

Yorkie


P.S. I've just PM'd Ms Walstad.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Yorkie said:


> Hi mistergreen,
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> ...


Try posting your question on https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Yorkie said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> In her book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ (Chapter 7), Diana Walstad talks about the use of aquarium plants to take up ammonium from the water. Section 4 within this chapter is entitled "Plants and Nitrifying Bacteria Compete". The essence of this is that plants prefer to uptake ammonium instead of nitrate. So, I did a very basic experiment in order to probe deeper into this...
> 
> ...


I usually don't check other forums on APC, so I would post your questions there.

Plants take up ammonia as their source of nitrogen for growth both day and night. (Nitrate is only taken up in the presence of light.)

Your plants reduced NH4 from 2 mg/l to 0.4 mg/l in 4 hours. This addition may have saturated their need for nitrogen. Then you added 3 mg/l. Was that immediately after the first reduction?

Plants take up N for growth along with some excess. But there's a limit. There has to be some plant growth involved. Ferns aren't fast growers. You'll notice that most of the scientific testing is done on Elodea, duckweed, Hornwort, etc, not ferns. Usually, scientists doing these studies show that the uptake is accompanied by plant growth.

In an NPT (natural planted tank), growing plants take up ammonia as it is generated in small amounts by natural processes. This means small amounts _as they grow_.

High concentrations of ammonia are toxic to plants (my book, p. 20), so there's some limit on how much they can take up and how fast.

Currently, I use plants as sole water purifiers in all of my 8 guppy tanks. No filters.

Attached article goes into plant uptake of nitrogen in more detail.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

dwalstad said:


> Your plants reduced NH4 from 2 mg/l to 0.4 mg/l in 4 hours. This addition may have saturated their need for nitrogen. Then you added 3 mg/l. Was that immediately after the first reduction?


I am very grateful for your comprehensive reply - thank you!

With specific reference to the above - yes, the 3 mg/l total ammonia addition was immediately after the first reduction. I was guessing somewhat and, in hindsight, it was too great an increase.

I measured total ammonia at 1900 this evening and it had dropped to 0.2 mg/l. Tomorrow, I'll test total ammonia again and also include NO2 and NO3.

Yorkie


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sounds like you have a scientific mind-set. Excellent.

The scientists looking for plant uptake of ammonia always check nitrates and nitrites to make sure that the N removal from the ecosystem is not due to nitrification.

Even then, it is hard to sort out. Nitrogen is recycled via many different pathways by many different organisms, bacteria species, etc. Everybody wants nitrogen!


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

dwalstad said:


> Sounds like you have a scientific mind-set. Excellent.
> 
> The scientists looking for plant uptake of ammonia always check nitrates and nitrites to make sure that the N removal from the ecosystem is not due to nitrification.
> 
> Even then, it is hard to sort out. Nitrogen is recycled via many different pathways by many different organisms, bacteria species, etc. Everybody wants nitrogen!


Hello again!

Yes, I have a science degree in electronics but I'm really enjoying my foray into the Life Sciences.

I decided to make a fresh start with the plants and ammonium experiment whilst continuing to use the same tank and plants. So, I did a 100% water change filling the tank with rainwater (as before) with added minerals to raise the conductivity to 200 microSiemens/cm. This is equivalent to 128 ppm TDS. I have also added doses of Flourish Iron, Flourish Phosphorus plus Flourish Trace to cater for the needs of the plants. The remineralizing salts contain calcium, magnesium, potassium, bicarbonate, chloride and sulphate; I use Tropic Marin _Re-Mineralize Tropic_.

Immediately after setting up this tank, I measured Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN), nitrite and nitrate, which were <0.05 ppm, 0.1 ppm and <0.5 ppm, respectively. I have made up a stock solution of NH4Cl and this will enable me to add tiny doses of ammonium to the tank. If necessary, I can reduce the likelihood of any interference from nitrification as there is a small UV-C sterilizer in the tank, which should kill off any waterborne bacteria. This can be switched ON or OFF, as necessary.

Later today, I will re-measure nitrite and, perhaps, TAN plus nitrate.

I will keep you updated.

Yorkie


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi Everyone,

I measured nitrite less than an hour ago and it has dropped a little. The JBL NO2 test kit has good resolution and I was able to read the new nitrite figure as 0.05 to 0.1 ppm. The colour match was nearer 0.05 ppm. No other measurements were done other than to check ORP/Redox, which was +230mV, thus indicating good oxygen level in the water.

Yorkie


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi Everyone,
*
Quick Update*

Nitrite measured at 1315 today. It is a tad less than 0.1 ppm - so it hasn't changed since yesterday. This comes as a bit of a surprise. The ferns appear to be fine - I will attach a photo in my next post. Water temperature is 25.7C +/-0.2C. I didn't see much point in measuring either ammonia or nitrate at this stage based on the above nitrite figure. Nothing was added to the tank today.

I am unable to measure PAR for the lighting. But, a rough-and-ready check of the spectrum indicates a decent amount of red light, plenty of blue light and much less green. The dominant wavelength appears to be around 450nm. I do have a spectrometer but it's a bit of a pain to set it up. Compared with my other tanks, the light I'm using appears quite bright to my eyes. It is an LED unit that I removed from an Aqua One 30 litre tank. The tank that I currently have the ferns in is a mere 12 litres and is only 20 cm depth.

I realize that my posts will probably be of no interest to most people but I am presenting this data in the hope that Diana Walstad may find time to add any comments.

Yorkie

P.S. Is there a way of including a member's name in a post with the suitable prefix that will alert the appropriate member to the post?


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi Everyone,

Two days ago (25/10/20), I added NH4Cl to raise TAN to 1.5 ppm as measured by the JBL 'NH4' test kit. Yesterday (26/10/20), TAN measured 0.4ppm, NO2 measured 1 ppm and NO3 measured between 5 and 15 ppm. Water pH is around 7.3.

I have calculated NH4-N (TAN), NO2-N and NO3-N at the outset and at the end of this exercise. These three parameters total approx. 1.4 ppm in both cases. So, the plants don't appear to have taken up any of the ammonium. Instead, the ammonium appears to have been oxidized to nitrite and nitrate. I conclude that nitrifying bacteria may have effected this oxidation. This is despite my best attempts to eliminate nitrifying bacteria in this tank. As the tank was scrupulously cleaned with KMnO4 solution beforehand (including dipping the plants and the wood to which they are attached) plus the use of UV-C sterilization of the water column, this is not what I had expected. The tank is also illuminated during the day and light is known to inhibit the growth of nitrifying bacteria. There is no substrate.

I need to take a break right now to give my grey matter a rest.

Hope to be back later today. In the meantime, if anyone spots any errors in my reasoning, please let me know.

Yorkie


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

1.5ml/L of H2O2 might work reduce any bacteria in the tank but safe for plants.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> 1.5ml/L of H2O2 might work reduce any bacteria in the tank but safe for plants.


Hi mistergreen,

That's good to know. Thanks for your feedback.

Yorkie


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Correction. it's 1.5ml/Gallon of 3% H2O2. 1.5ml/L is be too strong for livestock, and some plants.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> Correction. it's 1.5ml/Gallon of 3% H2O2. 1.5ml/L is be too strong for livestock, and some plants.


Thanks for the update.

Yorkie


----------



## 3.142craft (8 mo ago)

Yorkie said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> Yorkie


Thanks Yorke, a very interesting discussion, do you have any further results since 2020? I’m interested because I have plans for a low pH setup and consequently nitrogen in the NH4+ form. I’m pondering using Najas Guadalupensis (Guppy grass) in a sump to take up the ammonium. Your discussion is a good start for me.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

3.142craft said:


> Thanks Yorke, a very interesting discussion, do you have any further results since 2020? I’m interested because I have plans for a low pH setup and consequently nitrogen in the NH4+ form. I’m pondering using Najas Guadalupensis (Guppy grass) in a sump to take up the ammonium. Your discussion is a good start for me.


Hi @3.142craft

Thanks for the feedback.

Since October 2021, I have set up a new 30 litre tank in which I am using a large Java Fern to purify the water. Apart from a surface skimmer, there is no electromechanical filtration. The substrate is inert, being comprised of silica sand and this is 2 cm depth, grain size 1 to 2 mm. I use re-mineralized RODI water to which I have not added any nitrifying bacteria. This tank is home to ten Vietnamese Cardinal Minnows. I inject a 'dribble' of CO2 24/7 to maintain pH at 6.5 +/- 0.2. The tank is illuminated by a Sera Nano LED Light at approximately 50% brightness. I use a _Seachem Ammonia Alert_ to warn of any toxic NH3. It has remained in the Safe zone (< 0.02 ppm) since the tank was set up.

This tank has been running for just seven months, entirely problem-free.

Yorkie


----------



## 3.142craft (8 mo ago)

Yorkie said:


> Hi @3.142craft
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the data update.
I have never used Seachem Ammonia Alert so I had to research it. Their website states ‘This product is not recommended for use at acid pH’, I presume this is because the majority of the nitrogen would be in the ammonium form and therefore in solution and not detectable by the Seachem system. This means that if ammonium is present in high levels and is not being removed by the Java Fern it would build to levels that, although not acutely toxic, are chronically toxic and therefore a long term problem. Would you consider a colourmetric test kit to check total ammonia?


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi @3.142craft

Thanks for your feedback.

Indeed, the Seachem website does say "This product is not recommended for use at acid pH". And, I suspect that Seachem are saying this because of the relationship between the toxic, free ammonia (NH3) and the non-toxic ammonium form (NH4). Together, we often loosely refer to this combination as 'ammonia'. I have sometimes seen it referenced as 'TAN', which is an abbreviation for 'Total Ammonia Nitrogen'. The relative proportions of NH3 and NH4 are determined by the water pH as shown below:

Sorry if all this is very familiar to you. Now, to your point. Why am I using the _Seachem Ammonia Alert_? If the water pH exceeds 6.7, any further increase may produce free NH3. So, in conjunction with the pH being constantly monitored, the _Seachem Alert_ is proving to be handy. I monitor TAN using the JBL NH4 test kit.

Apologies for the long-winded answer!

Yorkie


----------



## 3.142craft (8 mo ago)

Yorkie said:


> Hi @3.142craft
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> ...


@Yorkie.
Thanks for your reply.
It is familiar but it’s good to know we are on the same page.
My point was more to your NH4+ levels, as per my original involvement with your posts.
‘I’m interested because I have plans for a low pH setup and consequently nitrogen in the NH4+ form. I’m pondering using Najas Guadalupensis (Guppy grass) in a sump to take up the ammonium. Your discussion is a good start for me.’
I’m trying to establish whether or not your Java Fern is taking up the NH4+ and if so to what degree. I’d be interested in your TAN readings because it would guide me with making a decision. I’m thinking the fern would grow too slowly for the uptake I’d need, I’m also looking into using Pothos as another alternative. Do you have any thoughts on alternative plants?


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

3.142craft said:


> I’m trying to establish whether or not your Java Fern is taking up the NH4+ and if so to what degree. I’d be interested in your TAN readings because it would guide me with making a decision.


Hi @3.142craft 

Good to hear from you again.

Latest measurements are as follows:

JBL TAN << 0.05 ppm

JBL Nitrite < 0.01 ppm

Aquacare Nitrate = 0 ppm

pH = 6.4 +/- 0.1

In order to verify that it's the Java Fern/plants taking up the nitrogen compounds and not nitrifying bacteria, you could duplicate a setup that I once tried. In order to reduce the likelihood of bacterial interference, I briefly sterilized the tank contents _before adding any fish_. Then, I used remineralized RODI water. I ran a UV-C sterilizer in the tank to kill off any waterborne bacteria.

How does that sound?

As for alternative plants, you could try a floating plant such as Lemna Minor. Since it will have access to atmospheric CO2, it should grow quite rapidly.

Please keep me updated and good luck!

Yorkie


----------



## 3.142craft (8 mo ago)

Yorkie said:


> Hi @3.142craft
> 
> Good to hear from you again.
> 
> ...


Hi Yorkie.
Good and very positive results. It’s interesting that at a pH of 6.4 you have a nitrite reading but also no nitrate reading. That’s going to take some thinking about and probably a whole new thread,

Thanks for the floating plants suggestion, I was pondering Pistia Stratiotes or Limnobium Laevigatum, easier to thin out than Lemna Minor but I may still trial it in one of the tanks just for comparison. I’m still unsure if any of them are ok in a very low pH and whether they prefer to take up ammonium or nitrates. I read Pothos prefers to take up ammonium, again I’m just not sure about the low pH.

As much as I’d find it interesting I probably won’t have the time to replicate your trials, I’m returning to the UK in early 2023 and would like to get straight to work setting up the aquariums, hence my need to research now. I’m trying to contact the UK rep for the Parosphromenus Project, who I hope has all the answers, but no response yet.

Thanks for your help, information and suggestions, it’s very much appreciated.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

3.142craft said:


> It’s interesting that at a pH of 6.4 you have a nitrite reading but also no nitrate reading.


Hi @3.142craft

The nitrite measurement showed < 0.01 ppm, which is another way of writing less than 0.01 ppm, this being the lowest reading of which the JBL test is capable. For all practical purposes, you can read this as zero ppm. The TAN reading was << 0.05 ppm, which is another way of writing very much less than 0.05 ppm. Again, for all practical purposes, you can read this as zero ppm. Nitrate was also 0 ppm. In other words, for all practical purposes, TAN, nitrite and nitrate are all zero ppm.



3.142craft said:


> I’m still unsure if any of them are ok in a very low pH...


What pH figure are we talking about?



3.142craft said:


> I’m returning to the UK in early 2023...


You will see from the column alongside that I'm in the UK. Please keep in touch.



3.142craft said:


> I’m trying to contact the UK rep for the Parosphromenus Project...


Interesting project.

Best,

Yorkie


----------



## 3.142craft (8 mo ago)

Yorkie said:


> Hi @3.142craft
> 
> The nitrite measurement showed < 0.01 ppm, which is another way of writing less than 0.01 ppm, this being the lowest reading of which the JBL test is capable. For all practical purposes, you can read this as zero ppm. The TAN reading was << 0.05 ppm, which is another way of writing very much less than 0.05 ppm. Again, for all practical purposes, you can read this as zero ppm. Nitrate was also 0 ppm. In other words, for all practical purposes, TAN, nitrite and nitrate are all zero ppm.
> 
> ...


Hi Yorkie 
Thanks for that, the readings make much more sense to me now and are very encouraging for where I’m heading.

What pH figure are we talking about?
Initially I’m looking at starting around a pH of 5 to 5.5 but if things progress well it I could potentially run some tanks as low as 3.
The wild Bettas I’m looking at and some of the easier to care for Parosphromenus prefer around the 5 to 5.5 pH level. At the other end of the scale there are Bettas and Parosphromenus that do well in a pH of 3 but I would be daft to think I can just jump in the deep end first. I’ve been a keen aquarist for about 50 years now but I’ve never delved so low, in general I always found neutral to work well unless breeding species with a specific requirement. I lived in Malaysia and Singapore in the early to mid 90s (only just pre palm oil) and was amazed at the beauty of the live aquarium fish found in the local markets but it never dawned on me they would be under such a massive threat. Now I’m coming up to retirement time and settling back in Essex (😖) I want to do something beneficial with my aquarium knowledge but I just have to adapt it to the lower pH first.

You will see from the column alongside that I'm in the UK. Please keep in touch.
I did see that and although it’ll take a while to get back, set up and get anything aquarium related worth mentioning I’ll certainly keep in touch. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your findings, it will definitely be of benefit.
Take care.


----------



## Yorkie (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi @3.142craft 

It has been a real privilege to meet you online and I'd dearly like to keep in touch with you - particularly when you return to the UK. I'd also be very interested in knowing how things progress with the Bettas and Parosphromenus. I would be more than happy to let you have my email address. It may well be the easier way to communicate in future. But, it's entirely up to you.

I hope everything goes as you wish.

Take care, my friend.

Yorkie


----------



## 3.142craft (8 mo ago)

Yorkie said:


> Hi @3.142craft
> 
> It has been a real privilege to meet you online and I'd dearly like to keep in touch with you - particularly when you return to the UK. I'd also be very interested in knowing how things progress with the Bettas and Parosphromenus. I would be more than happy to let you have my email address. It may well be the easier way to communicate in future. But, it's entirely up to you.
> 
> ...


Hi Yorkie.
Likewise!


Yorkie said:


> Hi @3.142craft
> 
> It has been a real privilege to meet you online and I'd dearly like to keep in touch with you - particularly when you return to the UK. I'd also be very interested in knowing how things progress with the Bettas and Parosphromenus. I would be more than happy to let you have my email address. It may well be the easier way to communicate in future. But, it's entirely up to you.
> 
> ...


Hi Yorkie.
Likewise!
I agree, following a discussion thread will be difficult, this is my aquarist email:
[email protected]
I hope it goes smoothly too, I’ve moved so many times you’d think I’d be good at it now but it just gets harder. I’m not looking forward to it.
Happy aquariuming!


----------



## AlanLuiz (4 mo ago)

I read about it in google last week. This is interesting


----------

