# Really Discouraged



## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

... and I don't know what to do.

After having cycled the tank, verifying with API liquid test kits, and planting the tank, I finally got a fish, and snail.

After a while the betta's fins started to tear. I panicked. I thought it was fin rot. So I quarantined and medicated. It turns out the betta wasn't infected with anything. His fins were tearing because of ammonia.

After having had zero ammonia, zero nitrites, and around 5 ppm nitrates for three days in a row, the ammonia started to rise again, to about 0.25 ppm. The nitrites were still at zero, and nitrates around 10 ppm. By this point the betta was already quarantined. Then my nitrites started to rise, eventually rising to 5.0 ppm after a few days, and nitrates to over 80 ppm.

The discouraging part was that the rises started happening shortly after everything was starting to improve. The cabomba was growing, and was starting to show lilac coloring. The Alternanthera had very little decay anymore; Most leaves were darker green or bright pink. Many leaves are still darker red. And the HC was all showing signs of new, bright green growth.

Then, Sunday, I forgot the lights on for longer than I planned on having them on. I think they ended up being on for like fifteen hours. The next day, most of the HC had yellowing. Since then, most of the HC is decaying, the cabomba, which had shown lilac coloring for only a day, is now yellowing, and the Alternanthera... well, it's just there. It is still turning red, but it doesn't seem to be growing, and I keep finding floating stems every day. I don't even replant them, I'm just picking them out and throwing them away.

I did a 50% water change a few days ago. The ammonia has been consistently at zero. The nitrites have slowly gone down. But the nitrates were the ones that went up to over 80 ppm.

Today I did a >60% water change. The ammonia and nitrites are zero, and the nitrate is around 5 ppm. I finally put the betta back in. Poor little thing, he was healthy, and eating, but it was just sad to see him in the quarantine container.

I will check parameters again today, in case I need to pull the betta out again.

The only thing I can figure is that my bacteria all died, and I had another cycle. I don't know why they would have died, though.

Here are the other stats:

RO water.

PPS-Pro

Excel

10g Tank

26 Watts of CFL, 6500k, 1620 lumens total.

Flourite, and Flourite Black sand.

Cabomba Palaeformis, Hemianthus Callitrichoides, Alternanthera Reinekii, and one hair (moss) ball.

77F, 1 AquaClear20 filled with Matrix, connected to a little tube thingy I bought so the water is skimmed from the surface, instead of the bottom.

I don't have pictures. I don't have anything to take pictures with. The laptop camera is not working.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

I had a 10g tank something similar happened to. The kH dropped to 0 and the pH crashed down to the low 5s. If you're using RO water, what are you remineralizing with? What's your kH coming from?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Also nitrates over 80 doesn't necessarily mean your bacteria are dead. It is possible that the colony that grew when the tank first cycled wasn't large enough to handle the extra bioload from the fish and snail which caused a mini cycle as the bacterial colonies grew to handle the larger amounts of nitrogenous waste. I read many forum posts from various sites about mini cycles happening after addition of fish which caused me to want to stock the tank over time making sure the bacteria have time to catch up after ever fish or two rather than adding a bunch of fish at once and have ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spikes.

Kh should be at least 4 for soft water fish and 6 should be fine for hard water fish, some fish might like it harder, like brackish fish, so if your kh is really low than you might want to add some coral to filter or there are various remineralizing products you can use to add essential minerals back to your tank as Tugg mentioned. Hope this helps and your tank and betta become healthy again.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I have not been remineralizing. After it was suggested, I think by you, Tugg, I placed it on the top of my list of next purchases. However, after spending way more than what I had planned on, I was hoping not to have to spend on the aquarium this month. I will research for household items I can use. If I can't find one I feel safe using, I will order Seachem's remineralizer this week.

What I don't understand is, why does kh affect ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates?

Pandragon, thank you for that info. I have read about mini cycles. I just didn't know that adding one betta, and one snail was going to be an overload for this system, even if it is only a a 10g. Plus I was adding bacteria daily, adding way more than was suggested, and had raised the doses even more starting one day before introducing them into the aquarium, until three or four days after.

Does decaying plant matter also increase ammonia? If that's the case, then maybe in addition to the fish load, the unhealthy alternanthera I had purchased was also adding to the problem. And now the HC is adding to the problem.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

You should be vacuuming the substrate often to get rid of the dead leaves, poop, un eaten food, etc as well. Kh doesn't affect forms of nitrogen as far as I know, but it does affect plant and fish health, both need some to be healthy, some more than others. Exactly what Kh (calcium carbonate hardness) does to the celular processes of fish and plants, I have no idea, but I know it is used to build skeletons, fish bones and snail shells, so I am guessing it might make plants leaves and stems stronger. It also protects against ph going low and turning the tank water to acid because acids erode the KH and turn it into calcium (salt?) and carbon dioxide (think the fizz from vinegar and baking soda or limestone) I believe. If I misunderstood/mistated that, any experts can assist in my explanation. I have done little chemistry in school many years ago so my memory isn't the best. It is also possible the bottle of bacteria you had was dead or the wrong kind of bacteria for your water (no matter what the label says) and the bacteria you had growing was from the air or plants or what ever else was in the tank.  Keep up the water changes, and you should be able to use a bit of tap water to increase kh a bit, just test after mixing a small batch unless you have an insane amount of lead or arsenic or some other scary chemical. Be sure to treat it with prime or something like it to get rid of chloramines or chlorine.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I have been reading about sodium bicarbonate for raising kh in emergencies. I will still order the seachem product, but it will be about a week before I get it. I will research dosing formulas in a little bit. However my concern is, will the sodium bicarbonate kill my snail? I only plan on using enough to raise kh by 1 degree per day, until I reach 4 degrees, and also only until I get the appropriate product.

Also, I would like to order more than just Seachem's Replenish, to make the shipping worthwhile. Any recommendations on other things this newbie should consider having on-hand?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I found this article about the different kinds of nitrifying bacteriahttp://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html , not sure how accurate it is since it looks like it is from a specific manufacturer of bottled bacteria, but it might help give you an idea of what might have caused your nitrogen spikes, since the bacteria need more than just plain ol RO water. I am not sure if the sodium in the sodium bicarbonate would hurt your snail, considering you are using RO water a tiny bit of sodium couldn't hurt as long as you keep dosage low. I would feel safer adding a bit of tap water to the RO then trying to get the right mix of salts, personally, as long as it is safe for human or animal consumption.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

That's the problem. I do not feel safe using the tap water in our area for human consumption.

And thank you for the interesting information. I have read similar information before, but I did not know about the phosphorus. I wonder if the fertilizers I add, add enough phosphorus for both the plants AND the bacteria.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Replenish is the product I was thinking of.

Just to double check:

Even though this is intended for GH, since it does have calcium and magnesium, it should also raise KH, right? Or do I have it all wrong?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

If it is enough for plants, it should be fine for the bacteria I am guessing, since I haven't seen anyone add phosphorus specifically for bacteria. I know plants and bacteria need a lot of macro and micro nutrients, I think if you are feeding the plants, the bacteria should be fine, just need to supplement calcium carbonate for the plants and ph buffer. The sodium bicarbonate gives you sodium, carbon, and hydrogen (NaHo3 is chemical formula if I remember correctly) and calcium carbonate is CaCo3, both give off co2 when exposed to acid or injected co2, which acts like an acid. I hope you will be ok using the sodium bicarb until you get the remineralizing salts that should give you the other elements. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Tyty Pandragon.

So... Pandragon... is that Pendragon, like Uther? Or do you have a dragon in your pan?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

panda+dragon=pandragon
in homage of my wedding invitation feating a dragon holding a panda happily munching bamboo and holding the dragon's tail  
lol


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Pandas and dragons... now those are two creatures I never would have imagined coexisting. Kudos on originality!


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

thanks, lol umm...ya its a long story


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

TankAaron said:


> Replenish is the product I was thinking of.
> 
> Just to double check:
> 
> Even though this is intended for GH, since it does have calcium and magnesium, it should also raise KH, right? Or do I have it all wrong?


Hello TankAaron,
Some notes I took:

*General Hardness* dGH, dH, GH: (usually expressed in dGH) General hardness is primarily the measure of calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++) ions in the water.
General hardness is perhaps best related to Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). dGH will not directly affect pH, although "hard" water is generally alkaline due to some interaction of dGH and KH.

Importance:
General hardness is all about osmoregulation, i.e., how easily a fish can maintain its internal water balance.

===========================

*Carbonate hardness* (and alkalinity) KH: (usually expressed in ppm) Carbonate hardness (KH) is the measure of bicarbonate (HCO3-) and carbonate (CO3--) ions in the water. Carbonate/Bicarbonate salts inhibit pH changes (or in other words, create alkalinity). Hence, carbonate hardness and alkalinity are related.

Clarification:
Is carbonate hardness the same as alkalinity? They are both different ways of talking about the same thing.

Importance:
Carbonate hardness (KH) is important to us because it's what prevents pH changes; The more carbonate hardness, the more resistant to acidification the water will be.
(And the higher your pH will be).

===========================

About SeaChem Replenish, I can tell you first hand that Replenish won't affect your pH to any significant degree. It just does a great job of raising GH in a very controlled manner.

One concern with raising the kH too quickly is if you have a low pH AND ammonia. You need to treat the ammonia problem BEFORE you raise the kH. The reason for this is at a low pH the ammonia is not as toxic to the fish, but can become very toxic as the pH rises. If I remember correctly it's when the pH reaches around 8 that things can go south pretty quickly. Nevertheless, you should probably keep any fish out of the tank until the bacteria catches up to the ammonia. Also, I would try to not move the Betta back and forth until you are sure things have become stable, as just the change back and forth would be stressful to him, let alone the ammonia.

Also a note: To convert GH or KH values back and forth, as sometimes people will express both GH and KH as ppm rather than in degrees, just divide or multiply by 17.9. So 2 degrees of dGH becomes 35.8ppm, or vise versa.

I hope you are able to get things stabilized soon.

~Grizz

References:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Grizz, thank you very much. As I was reading your reply, I realised I made a mistake on my order. I called immediately to correct it, lol.

So, though I didn't want to go that route, I ordered Seachem's Replenish, Prime, and Alkaline and Acid Buffers. I will try to go for an approximate KH of 6, and a pH between 6.5 - 7, according to the dosing instructions. I do not have KH or GH meters, so I will do my best, according to the instructions.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I use api liquid test for all that.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I have the API test kit. It only comes with tests for pH, high range pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I will probably not have other kinds of test kits any time soon.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

+1 for TankAaron's suggestion for API on the KH and GH. They work great.

I would also highly recommend HM Digital's pH-200 pH meter. That one piece of equipment is worth it's weight in gold. Plus the company is great too and very helpful if you have any questions about using their products. You can ask me too if you have questions, although I'm not on here every day. If you decide to get that meter make sure you also buy a small bottle of 7.0 calibration solution and a bottle of their device storage solution as well. Although they provide a small amount of both you will burn through it pretty quick.

Be forewarned that mixing up the buffers and getting your desired outcome is not as easy as you may think. Acid offsets the alkaline buffer and vise versa, and you can wind up adding back and forth to compensate. Try to add as little as possible of both to achieve your goal. Best to mix in separate containers and then mix the two together. I use Home Depot 5 gallon buckets for short term mixing. Don't store you water in them as they are not food grade.

Then I have seen my pH climb for the next two days after I add the water to my tank, which is totally counter what should occur. So you will want to closely monitor your pH over the next few days.

The Replenish will provide your GH which should be at least 150, even for Bettas. Trust me, I have pretty much made this my life's work over the last several months. The super low GH recommendations for Bettas and other fish is outdated now due to current research on osmoregulation. 150 or above is recommended depending on what fish you have, but anything below 400 is deemed safe now, if that's what's coming out of your tap and you're using tap. I'm shooting for 150 for my Betta tank asa that's the minim safe. If your fish are used to a certain low GH level, you can start acclimating them to a higher GH, but VERY VERY VERY slowly over weeks!

I would say that unless you have a lot of time on your hands and are willing to make a commitment, making your own custom water parameters are difficult and a little risky to your fish. Allow yourself a lot of time. When you mix begin in the morning and keep your day free. Also, I wouldn't do it without a pH meter. Strips and color matching in my opinion just aren't precise enough for that kind of application. Those are more for making sure your tank isn't wildly swinging in one direction.

Go here and read absolutely everything:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Thank you for the info, Grizz. And thank you for the awesome link. I was actually reading that page, last night, and I forgot to bookmark it. You're a link saver!


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Update:

The plants are starting to show new growth again. However so much of the HC has rotted that I'm considering completely getting rid of it. Though the tops of the HC are now growing bright green, again, most of the roots are rotten. What do you guys suggest I do?

The bottoms of the cabomba are also bare now. They have all grown a bit, and several are starting to grow new, bright green stems from the bottom; all the way down from the roots.

A LOT of the Alt. reineckii is gone now. I still have plenty left. However if the curious betta doesn't stop uprooting them, I may not have any left, eventually.

It hurts to think of throwing all that HC away, but I'd like to save my tank. I am now starting to get different kinds of algae; brown dots, green strands, and green goo. I figure getting rid of the HC, and turning down the light period will help. I don't have time to mess with more things. I was hoping for a low maintenance tank to provide entertainment during short breaks, in between homework.

I will also be painting the underside of the hood white. I was going to do it today, but I want to leave it outside overnight to dry, and it rained today. So I'll do that tomorrow.

I guess my only question right now is whether to throw the HC out, or not. Or perhaps I just need someone else to tell me what I realise I should do. =/


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

From Seachem's site on Replenish:
_Ingredients: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium chloride, potassium chloride_

None of these salts are carbonates, so they won't raise kH at all. The CaCl2 and MgCl2 raise gH only. For kH, some people choose to use backing soda (Sodium Bicarbonate NaHCO3), however I just recently picked up some Potassium Bicarbonate off Amazon so I look forward to seeing if that works well to help keep my sodium levels low.

Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate are both mostly insoluble in water. Though, it is correct. The acids in the tank will SLOWLY dissolve them as the carbonate is converted into bicarbonate. Bicarbonate salts dissolve almost instantly though... thus my choice for Potassium BiCarb.

Also, just an FYI: Seachem's Equilibrium is a much better product for raising the gH in a freshwater planted tank. Replenish has a LOT of chloride, while Equilibrium uses Sulfate for the anions. Elevated sulfate isn't much of a problem since it's actually a macro nutrient, while chloride is a micro nutrient. Also, chloride and nitrate compete for the same uptake mechanisms, so too much chloride could cause problems with nitrate consumption in some sensitive plants.

Seachem's site on Equilibrium: _Derived from: potassium sulfate, calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate._


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

=/

I already ordered Replenish a couple of nights ago. I had been thinking of getting the liquid, instead of the powder. I have used Equilibrium before, and it was all clumped like a rock. I had to pick at it, then crush it until it was a fine enough powder to measure correctly. Then when I mixed it in the water, it still had tiny clumps in it which I would never stir enough to remove them, and were hard enough that I could not get them to dissolve. They even hurt me when I tried to pinch them into submission.

However, now I'll worry about the chloride. /sigh


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Did you try mixing the equilibrium in warm to hot water first? You wouldn't want to use too much heated water as to throw off the temperature of the tank, but a little to help it dissolve in a separate container might help.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Pandragon, that is an awesome idea. /feeling stupid for not thinking of it. Still, it is a few years too late. I haven't had Equilibrium in about five years.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

So should I throw the HC out, or wait it out?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

If they are growing green healthy bits than I would wait it out, they could still recover I think.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Yeah, the new bits are a very nice green color. It is still a bright green, but it is still a darker green than the original color when they came in. I don't know how to explain it properly, but the new growth is awesome looking.

I don't know if this is a good thing, or not, but the new leaves seem to be smaller than the ones it had before. I don't mean the brand new leaves. Of course those would be smaller. I mean the ones that seem to have grown up now. Is that to be expected in the change from emmersed to immersed?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

It could be, or it could be the light, or a number of other things. I haven't grown that plant yet, so I wouldn't really know, although some of my plants grew in a different shade of green or developed different size or shaped leaves after they settled into my tank. Too bad you cant get pictures to show everyone, but it doesn't sound like a problem so far, at least not to me. Good luck and i am glad the plants are growing better.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Update:

After a week of dosing bicarbonate, my HC is half-way back to normal.

Yesterday part of my order arrived. Seachem's Alkaline Buffer, Acid Buffer, and Prime. I got Prime by mistake, instead of ordering Replenish. I corrected the order that same night. UPS says it delivered both orders yesterday, but the Replenish is m.i.a.

Today I did a MAJOR water change. I first rinsed the sponge I have on the filter's intake. After putting it back on, I stirred the water as much as I could to get as much plant matter floating, and stuck on the sponge again. Then I took out as much water as I could; I figured about eight out of the nine and a half gallons, and rinsed the sponge again. I also kept stirring the water as I suctioned it out, to get as much matter out.

I also plucked out all the cabomba; actually before the water change. I was very surprised. From visually inspecting the tank, daily, I really thought the cabomba was in bad shape, and covered in brown algae. It turns out, all the cabomba was in great shape. All the stems were crispy; I trimmed them all. None of the stems were melting, as I thought they were. And none had any brown algae. The brown at the bottom of the stems, was actually the golden color of the plant itself. Is the golden color at the bottom a sign of not enough light reaching the bottom? The tops are very dark green, and the undersides of the top leaves are slightly lilac. I have Cabomba Palaeformis (Purple).

I am not yet working on getting them purple. For now, after the concern that all of my plants were dying, I am only focusing on stabilizing my aquarium. After I'm sure it's stabilized, I will work on tinkering with the dosing.

I prepared new water, using the dosing chart on the buffer bottles. I did as close to the 1:1.3 ratio as I could, erring on the side of higher pH. I tested the pH, and it came out to about 6.6. Perfect! I want to keep it between 6.5, and 7.0, with 6.8 being my ideal. I am not going to obsess over getting it exactly at 6.8. I instead want to keep the doses the same, every time I dose, in order to keep the pH as balanced as possible.

I kept the betta out of the tank while I did this, just in case.

Once I figure out where the Replenish is, I will start dosing that.

I had tried to dose double the fertilizer amounts for a few days, but then when my tank started going downhill, I panicked and I returned to dosing the amounts I started with. The double amounts only were only dosed about three days.

I have done some more reading, and I will now start increasing the ferts again. I will start tomorrow, Monday. I will dose double the amount of NPK, the same amount of trace, and the same of Excel.

So for a 10g tank, dosing PPS-Pro, I will now be dosing:

2 mL Excel
2 mL NPK
1 mL trace

I do not have an automatic on/off switch for my lights. I can't remember what I did with the one I had. So the plants have a photoperiod of between nine and ten hours daily, except today.

What do you guys think?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't know much about fert dosing, but the healthy new growth is a good sign. It looks like once you get the replenish and carbonate source balanced out you should be fine. It is a shame you can't get pictures. How is the bettaw improving any?


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

The betta is doing great. It turns out he was never sick. The small, pin-hole sized tear I saw was due to the ammonia during the second cycle I had. Once I realized that, fixed the ammonia problem, and reintroduced him in the tank. He's been in for over a week now. Both the betta, and the snail frequently roam around now.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Yay! Good to hear the betta is happy and snail is well.


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