# Did i just screw up my cycling process?



## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Ok, so I started cycling a 10g quarantine tank in a plastic container with a cycled filter, some dirted plants in a pot and ended up throwing in a dead snail for lack of ammonia to start the cycle. All was fine, ammonia .25 for about a week rose to .5 then nitrites rose to .25 then to .5 as ammonia dropped to .25 over the next week or so. All seemed good, but I was worried about the stability of the plastic tub bowing like crazy and the HOB not on there very well, so I dumped everything into a new tank as soon as I could find one for cheap. Now I have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and never had a nitrate spike. Both my ammonia test kits (api ammonia and master) show RO, tap, and tank water same color-slightly green, it never showed completely yellow. I never really worried about it since I saw the nitrites doing there thing and the ammonia did go from darker green to a bit lighter while I was waiting for the nitrates to rise. Well, it has been about a week after I dumped everything from the tub into the new tank and nitrates haven't changed and everything has been all 0s. Do I need to add some source of ammonia to start a mini cycle to make sure the bacteria are established before adding fish? I have a bunch of egeria elodia, a few wisteria, a couple bacopa trimmings, a baby java fern, and a hygro corymbosa compact in there, could they be sucking up all the nitrates which is why I haven't seen a nitrate spike?

I was hoping to get some ottos from lfs this weekend, but since everything is 0 and no characteristic nitrate spike and fall indicative of finished cycle, I am wary. 

Any help, ideas, cautions, etc would be much appreciated, thanks!!!!!!!


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

If you dumped absolutely everything, including the dead snail, it should have not affected the bacteria.

If the new tank had something on it, it may have killed the bacteria.

If you added untreated tap water, it may have killed the bacteria.

If there happened to be a change in your tap water, like the city adding something different to the city's water supply, for whatever reason, it may have killed your bacteria.

If the new tank is bigger than the container you had, the added amount of water may have diluted the ammonia, and nitrites enough that it could have affected the bacteria.

There are many ifs. So long as there isn't anything new in your tap water, the only concern you should focus on is starting the cycle again. Do add a source of ammonia again, and start the process over.

Anyway, that's my two cents.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Nothing new in the tank, same amount of water, no added water of any kind, so all those ifs are negatory...I can't figure out what happened to the nitrite all a sudden went from .5 ppm down to 0 like what happened when I cycled main tank, except my main tank had a rise in nitrates around the time the nitrites started dropping. My quarantine skipped the nitrate spike all together and everything else zeroed out, except for the odd test color of all water which gave me a false impression that there were higher ammonia levels than there really were (reason for the dead snail addition up to three weeks since I added water to the tub in the beginning since it always showed the nearly yellow green but never rose, fell, turned to nitrite etc, that is, not until adding said snail. So ya everything was fine until I changed tanks which I wiped the new tank out and cleaned with water but no bleach or anything that would kill new bacteria (bacteria that should have been on the filter by now anyways). I was expecting a rise in nitrates, drop in nitrites, and 0 ammonia, but ended up with 000 for everything, except the weird ammonia reading that matched RO water, so can't be ammonia from chloromine since RO removes choramine, and my city says they use chlorine not chloramine. Therefore I figure ammonia is 0 and it just looks slightly greenish and cloudy from color of water or the light or something odd, it never did look the exact same color as the comparison chart anyhow. I just wish I knew if my tank is safe for fish or not or if it will be by the weekend. Maybe the shock of moving everything to the new tank disrupted the bacteria and killed it after the ammonia was decomposed into nitrite and before the nitrite could be turned into nitrate, but wait, theres no nitrite either. Could the handful of plants I have be using all nitrate, or enough to not show any on the test no matter how much I shake the bottles or how long I wait?


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

A planted tank can actually cycle silently. If sufficient plant mass is present, they can basically outcompete the bacteria and take up the ammonia. Then you really can't tell for sure if your tank is "cycled" since you won't have any spikes or measurable increases.

I suspect your plants were transitioning, or just unhappy in the tub and when you moved everything, they were finally able to suck up the nutrients.

If you dose ammonia up to 1-2ppm and 24 hours later you have no signs of anything (all three read 0), then you're probably fine to move on. 

FYI, I would never use a dead snail/shrimp for an "ammonia source". That's just gross. I find the easiest source of ammonia to actually be the instant cold packs in your pharmacy. They're cheap and they contain either urea (has ammonium) or ammonium nitrate. In either case, you can slowly add it to the aquarium until you get a sufficient reading. Pure ammonia as a solution is a pain to find. It has surfactants and other additives. You typically need to get it from industrial cleaning suppliers. The cold pack can be found at your grocery store in the first aid section.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

It was a snail that had to be euthanized due to a crushed shell caused by a trip through the filter, figured I'd throw it in there and take it out when ammonia spiked got a use out of it before throwing it down the sink. The cold pack idea seems a bit cleaner, I am guessing don't use the icy hot ones, since I think those are menthol and other things.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

When you put all of the things in the tank, did that include the dead snail? If it didn't, then you took the ammonia source out. Then the bacteria had no more ammonia to feed on, or turn into nitrite, etc. If this is the case, that accounts for the break in the nitrogen cycle.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

No it doesn't because there was 0 ammonia at that point and only nitrite.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

My plants did grow quite a bit in that time and the nitrites weren't very high, 0.25-0.5 ppm, so it is possible they filtered it out or the nitrate spike. I will try and find a cold pack for ammonium nitrate to see if the bacteria has grown enough to take care of a 1-2 ppm spike like tugg suggested.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Please post the results. I'm interested in that idea. I had not read about it before.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I completely forgot about the instant cold packs containing the ammonia source. I read a few posts around this and other forums about getting ammonium nitrate from cold packs as a fert source for people in countries that can't import pure ammonium nitrate. Complete duh moment on my part. I'll try to get one saturday when I go shopping.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Ooooh! Where do you go shopping? At the mall?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Mall for ice packs? Umm I go to pharmacy section of grocery store, when I buy weekly groceries...what mall would sell ice packs? I guess if the mall had a pharmacy, but I never seen a pharmacy in a mall, or any other place selling ice packs.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I have seen malls that have medical supply stores. But that wasn't the point. The point was to add the vid. It's one of my favorite sections, of one of my favorite cartoons, from when I was a child. Though I'd still watch that cartoon, now as an adult.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Umm..Anyways, I'll report about ammonia test when I get the ice pack thing and all, crossing fingers hoping results are good.


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## professor-moriarty (Aug 28, 2014)

For the ammonia has anyone tryed the def fluid they use in diesel trucks?
It is 32.5 % urea


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

So, I got the ice pack, mixed up some of the white granules in RO water. Let it sit a while, tested for ammonia, test was greyish green which looked like either .5 or 2 ppm on the salt water scale.

I added it to the tank mixed well, tested. The test came out dark blue? The color didn't match anything on the salt water or fresh water color charts for api ammonia kit and api master kit. It was supposed to be ammonium nitrate according to everything I read online, no ingredients on the box or bag. It was Walgreens brand--only store that had the instant ice pack for certain.

Is it ok? could they have changed the chemical mix and I added something scary to my tank? 

The control test in the RO water went from the greyish green that matched the chart to more grey then went yellow brown in about 15-20 minutes after the initial 5 minute develop time. The The tests from the tank stayed blue after longer than 20 mins.

I have never had the ammonia test come up with these colors and have no idea what is going on or if it is dangerous. Should I just wait several hours and see if I get nitrate levels or wait 24 hours and see if I get 0s on nitrite and ammonia and low nitrate and call it good?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Ok so I did a 30% water change and the colors look about right now, still odd though. I wonder if the cold pack contained calcium ammonium nitrate not ammonium nitrate which made it look more towards the salt water comparison charts...but way darker. Idk, I do see nitrites rising after a few hours, so I think I'll let the bacteria and plants do there thing and see if they can use up enough nitrogen to drop it down to healthy levels in 24 hours.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

FACEPALM!!!! Apparently I missed a decimal point somewhere in my calculation for ammonia dosage and didn't realize when the solution wasn't disolved all the way. So, I finally got ammonia down to 2 ppm, nitrite 0.5, nitrate 40 ppm after several water changes and several hours of bacterial action.

I hope these numbers look good for a cycle test, as in if they all drop to normal level, 0,0, >20 respectively, I should be green lighted for fish?


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

What exactly did you get wrong in the calculation?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't remember, but ended up with 20 ppm instead of 2ppm ammonia.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

so, I think I slaughtered some of the bacteria from too high ammonia/nitrite levels. My ammonia has been stable at 2ppm, nitrites rose to max on chart 5ppm if I remember right, while nitrates halved to 20 in 24 hours. 

Note to self, mix solution in hot water let sit 'til cool then test before adding to aquarium...Apparently the granules weren't dissolved all the way or hadn't released all the ammonia contained in them.

On the other hand, I tested main 29g tank starting with aprox. 20 granules of the stuff (too small amount to register on scale) rose slowly to 1ppm ammonia over a few hours has dropped to 0,0,0 on tests in 24 hours.

I took some rocks out of the main tank and placed them in the qt to help reseed. I could so kick myself, if the cycle wasn't messed up before, it is now! :\


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I know that too much ammonia will kill the bacteria (duh, it IS used as a disinfectant, after all), but I didn't know 2 ppm was high enough. Please, do keep updating. I've been very interested in the updates to this thread.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

It is 2ppm now, I am not entirely sure how high it was before...looked like dark blue koolAid. :/ The color hasn't changed from the 2ppm color since I finally got it to 2 ppm yesterday, but nitrites increased, so maybe the bacteria are using the ammonia, just not fast enough to overcome what is being released by the stuff in the icepack? 

all I know is there isn't enough bacteria to handle what is in the tank, so I will keep checking daily or more to see if anything changes. I hope the bacteria will catch up in a week, might take a month, basically cycle restart worst case scenario, I guess.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

So, today I picked up some fluval biofoam to put in filter to give more space for bacteria to grow on. I am trying to season it in my main tank by shoving it between the glass and driftwood in powerhead with the addition of some ammonia to start a mini cycle over the next week. Then I'll throw it in the HOB o the qt and hope it helps.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm confused. Why are you needing to add ammonia to the main tank? I thought the cycle went out of whack on your quarantine tank. Did I get that mixed up?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Nope you are right. The main tank is fine. I am starting a mini cycle to grow more bacteria on brand new never used media. I am trying to get nitrifying bacteria to colonize the new media quickly in order to help cycle the qt that hasnt had any change in nitrogen levels over 24 hours leaving me to believe the bacteria is pretty much dead in the qt and I don't want to wait a month or more for bacteria to grow in the quarantine tank bio media, plus it probably needed more media than the dinky sponge thing that came with it anyways.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Don't add ammonia. Especially if you have any critters in there. If you only have plants, then I guess it doesn't matter much.

You don't need to add ammonia to seed media. Just put some of the new media, as much as can fit, in the filter with the old media.

If there is no room, get some of the old filter media in a baggie. Hang the baggie in the filter's outtake water flow, and fill the rest of the filter with the new media.

Better yet, get a very small amount of the old media, and put it in the bottom of the new filter, and fill up the rest with the new media.

Any of these methods help seed your new media.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

My walls, gravel, etc is my media in main tank (wastad setup) anyways i am not adding enough ammonia to hurt anything, just enough to get the lil buggers growing again, think of the .25-.5 ppm spike that happens when you add a fish that goes away in a week. None of my snails are surfing or even notice the change at all so I am not worried about it one bit hurting anything with suck small amounts.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Yeah... That Walstad method keeps sounding less, and less like something I'd like to try. Of course, now that I said that, I'll probably end up doing nothing but Walstad, in the future, lol.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Well, most people have a filter as well, I have a lilttle one on my powerhead to keep powerhead from being clogged and to give me a place to hide purigen once in a while to soak up excess tannin when the water turns to tea, but that's about it. The soil added the necessary ammonia to cycle the tank and helped add some bacteria, but I really got the most bacterial help when I added some plants and silt from a local river. I think high tech has more variables that can go wrong, like my qt which is bare bottom with a pot with a few plants and some dirt and cap that ended up using all ammonia before cycle completed or something screwed up the cycle and threw off the balance to begin with. I have had more problems with setups that rely on air stones, filters, scraping glass, etc than with my main walstad tank. You just have to start slowly and let the plants do the job, safer to throw fish in later rather than sooner, and I think the reproduction of the snails helped keep the main tanks bacterial colony slowly growing to where it is now. The snails never had any issues when main tank was cycling. Considering inverts are usually the first to kick the bucket when cycling or ammonia spikes, I think my tank did pretty well, I just wouldn't fully stock a tank for at least a month after set up to make sure bacteria is stable. My qt has been up for about that long, should have been cycled, but then I moved everything and messed it up and made it worse by trying to test the cycle as tugg suggested. I am very glad I am not trying to juggle dosing ferts,co2, water changes, light, etc.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Yeah, trying to have more control of things, like I like to have, does create more work. However the "light" work that it creates IS my hobby. That is my entertainment.

On the other hand, adding silt from a local body of water, and doing similar natural things, adds unknown variables. You don't know what is tagging along with what you're adding. But things can, and do, go wrong with artificial things, too. Look at my case.

I like dosing bacterial additives to help the process. I had used Seachem's product before, and I had a great time. This time I decided to use Drs. Foster & Smith's bacterial additive. I love their sites, but I'm not so sure about their brand. I didn't have a good time with this tank's cycle. It could have been any number of things. One thing I did notice is that DFS's product is LIVE bacteria, as opposed to Seachem's which is... (I forgot what it's called, but the bacteria isn't live, they're mysids (sp?)). In this case, the problem was user error; for not reading carefully.

In the end, to each his, or her own. With any method you choose, you will have variables, some unknown, and you are likely to face a problem, or two.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Most of the bacteria that ends up growing is the kind that can't withstand freezing, but goes dormant under refrigeration, dies if it drys if it dries out, and has to have oxygen to survive. It must be hard to keep it fresh in a bottle, and even then not for long. They also live on surfaces that they cling too, so that would be the sides of the bottle rather than the water, unless there is some kind of media in there for the bacteria to live on. I just don't trust the bottled stuff, they might help keep nitrates low in the beginning but might also use up the food so that the bacteria we want can't grow to the levels needed.

I just ordered some floating plants which I think will help combined with the filter media hsould get my tank cycling again and hopefully fix it.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Yes. I saw that. Kudos.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

So, apparently I had to forget about the tank for a few days. I checked it the day before yesterday and numbers were 000 so I added 1ppm ammonia over about 12 hours and within 15 hours ammonia was 0, 18 hours nitrite was 0, and nitrate was 5ppm. I think it is safe for ottos now.

I also have the surface 90% covered in frog bit and red root floaters which are doing well to suck up nitrates. 

A little patience goes a long way...


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Patience... does that go well with red wine, or white wine? It is a food, right? If it isn't, I do not know it.

Yeah, I saw that you got some floaters... though the term _floaters_ makes me cringe. What are red root floaters? I get it, their roots are probably red. But is it a specific plant, or a group of plants. If it is a group of plants, why are they grouped? What makes them different from other... floaters? /cringe


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Here is a description and some pictures. They are really pretty.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm almost certain your eyes sparkled while saying that. I'm thinking there may even have been some drool.


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