# starting a photojournal of my self-sustaining ecosystem project



## ianjones

this is about a week into the project. i had just emersed the houseplants and the water got cloudy from all the soil that i couldnt bang out of the roots. since this picture, i have removed the two palms on the far left and the croton in the cup on the middle left, and replaced them with a money tree and other plants that came in a terrarium with it. if you are planning on experimenting with houseplants, i have learned a tip recently. leave the roots visible and in a week or two, you will be able to tell whether the plant will thrive or not in its environment (some houseplants experience die-back from being in a new enviro but that doesnt mean they wont grow back and live). if the plant begins to branch new roots, you will see them clearly. they will be white and unsoiled, in contrast with the rest. this plant will thrive, regardless of what the leaves look like. if the roots become milky-clearish, or do not produce new roots in a couple weeks, it might not adapt to this type of setting. also, some plants will live with their roots exposed to only the water, and die if they are in waterlogged dirt and vice versa.

what you dont see here is that everything below the bottom of this pic is coated in a disgusting, think blanket of cyanobacteria (BGA). i exersized a lot of patience in my war against this stuff, and had to ignore a lot of jeers from people telling me that i needed CO2 and that i couldnt put my tank in a window, and that it would never go away because the water is stagnant. the GSA is not a problem to me because it is a renewable food source, but nothing on earth eats cyano, save for the spirulina strain. i didnt medicate my tank, i didnt do a blackout, i didnt use peroxide. i mostly just waited for the plants' nutrient intake to rival the cyano. what i did do to help it was i added a layer of non-fertilized topsoil beneath the gravel. dont make the same mistake i made and try this while the tank is filled with water. you end up changing so much water for clarity that you might as well have drained it. i rerooted the plants (and changed the scheme a little but kept the corkscrew val curtain down the middle. i thought it was a good idea to keep more dominant fish from sight-chasing less dominant fish from across the tank.) after the dirt was in and capped with gravel, the plants took off and the cyano died completely in a week (which was around yesterday). a couple people have mused that the onset of cyano began with me using "bacteria in a bottle" products to help my tank cycle and i completely agree.

another lesson learned...the dirt swirling around in the tank almost killed the water hyacinth. floating plants hate soil clogging their feathery roots!


----------



## ianjones

this is after i took those palms on the left out and replaced them with the money tree and its co-terraritarians. the male betta loved the idea and he immediately began building his bubble nest behind the money tree. you would think that after the first fry were born he would relish the idea of being free from the stress of the nest, but instead he mated with the rest of the female bettas and put their eggs in there too. he is currently guarding a nest containing the eggs of three female bettas. he leaves for only seconds at a time to chase the females away and to find himself some food.

this picture was taken shortly after i had introduced the topsoil, and i was doing 12gal water changes every day to get the water clear again. notice the cyano still on the submerged bamboo leaf. (btw you can get bigger stalks of bamboo for cheaper at Lowes than you can at the LFS.)

in this kind of setup, emergent plants are actually better at filtration than aquatic plants, because they can get their CO2 from the air instead of relying on fish respiration. which means that if you dont have CO2 injection, the emergent plants can suck up more CO2 and grow faster because they are not limited in their CO2 intake.


----------



## ianjones

this is an update on my 75gal ecosystem project. the tank has been up for about a month now. i had really bad cyano at first, but it is all dead now, giving way to lots of GSA. hopefully it will whittle down without disappearing entirely, as it is renewable food for my omnivores/herbivores.

FLORA:

AQUATIC:
Moneywort, Java Fern, Water Wysteria, Giant Hygro, Corckscrew Val, Jungle Val, Java Moss, Hornwort, Anacharis, Swword (amazon?), Microsword, Tiger Lotus, Algae Balls, Apongeton, Water Lily, Aquatic Onion Grass...and 2 more species ive forgotten the names of.

BOG/FLOATING:
Arcorus, Water Hyacinth, Water Lettuce

HOUSE PLANTS AS EMERGENTS:
Cataractarum Palm, Parlor Palm, Lucky Bamboo, Money Tree, Lavender, Sage, Cherry Tomato, Onion, and 4 or 5 plants that i cant identify.

FAUNA:
Blackworms, 1 Male Betta, 3 Female Bettas (bettas have fry), 1 Male Guppy, 2 Female Guppies, 1 Male Balck Molly, 2 Female Black Mollies, 1 Male Blue Platy, 2 Female Blue Platys, 1 Male Swordtail, 1 Female Swordtail, 4 Otocinculuses, 2 Rosy Red Minnows, 2 Ghost Shrimp, 12 Snails (apple, pond, and something else) and their excessive babies.

The next additions to the tank will be shrimp. I have ordered 8 Crystal Blue Shrimp, and i also would like cherry shrimp and bee shrimp. After the shrimp have reproduced a lot, and the plants have gotten very dense, I plan on adding a male and 2 female gouramis (not sure what kind yet. id like dwarf gouramis but i cant find females) and im saving the bottom of the tank for dwarf cichlids.


----------



## ianjones

Water Wysteria. And you can see the Tiger Lotus a little on the right, below the floating plant. It wasnt doing so well when i first put it in but now it is growing again


----------



## ianjones

Moneywort


----------



## ianjones

Java Fern that keeps falling off its perch. I plan on building up this side of the tank with a few more river rocks, in preparation for the cichlids.


----------



## ianjones

Corkscrew Val. I used this to make a "curtain" down the middle of the tank to keep more aggressive fish from "sight-chasing" less aggressive fish from all the way across the tank.


----------



## ianjones

I dont know the identities of these plants. i think the one in the middle is from a bulb so im guessing apongeton. the two on the right are stalk-y and i keep thinking they are bog plants, but they only do well under the water and start to die every time i use them as emergents.


----------



## ianjones

My only sprig of Microsword. i searched so long for carpeting plants and this is all ive found so far.


----------



## ianjones

Here you can see the roots of the Cataractarum Palm. It was very rootbound when i bought it and i think its root system is going to make a great place for fry and anything else that needs to escape the rest of the tank. see the new roots on the left side? they are white compared to the rest. this is how i tell whether a specific houseplant is going to thrive in the tank or not


----------



## ianjones

Lucky Bamboo down the side (i got the two taller stalks from lowes for cheaper than i got the two smaller stalks from the LFS) Money Tree in the corner, and does anyone know what that plant is beside the Money Tree? It came in a terrarium with the Money Tree without a label...either way, all these plants are doing well and have sprouted new roots


----------



## ianjones

i use these cups to grow houseplants, but they also double as breeding grounds for blackworms, so that the worms can breed safe from the fish, and when they become overcrowded, they begin to make their way out of the drainage holes at the bottoms of the cups and get eaten. this keeps them as a sustainable food source for my omnivores and carnivores, though getting the number of cups right is an ongoing process.

the plants in the cups are (left to right) cup 1: lavender sprout in topsoil. cup 2: unidentified plant that also came in terrarium with money tree (anyone know?) in topsoil. cup 3: sage sprout and cherry tomato sprout in aquarium gravel with a little bit of peat/sphagnum soil. cup 4: 2 unidentified plants that came with the money tree in peat/sphagnum soil.


----------



## ianjones

this is another cup that contains the Arcorus in a peat/sphagnum soil. This cup used to have Venus Flytraps, but to my surprise, they died. To the right is the Parlor Palm that doesnt seem to be doing well in the tank, but it is going to stay in until it lives or dies, because it attracts too many bugs for me to want elsewhere in the house.

The house plants tend to do better when grown emergent in the topsoil, whereas the worms tend to like the peat/sphagnum soil better.


----------



## ianjones

Here are the two floating plants, the Water Hyacinth and the Water Lettuce. The Water Hyacinth diminished after i added topsoil to the substrate because it didnt like the free-floating soil clogging its roots, but since i have cleared away the unsettled soil, it has started growing new leaves and roots. The Water Lettuce is a new addition and looked like this when i got it. im hoping it will brighten up in its new home. we will see. you can also see the onion bulb growing below the cups there and an emergent piece of it flowering above the water.


----------



## ianjones

Here is the Hornwort jungle that is stuffed behind and around the stalks of the Cataractarum Palm. It does well in the darker reaches of the tank and should also make good cover for fry.


----------



## ianjones

Here is a sprig of the Giant Hygro. Also, in the back of the tank, below the onion bulb, you can see the Jungle Val, which has recently sent runners.


----------



## ianjones

new crystal blue shrimp laying eggs...thanks joshvito!


----------



## ianjones

snail egg clutch in roots


----------



## ianjones

project update. all aquatic plants are doing phenomenally and im beginning to bend my mind toward getting some fish that will eat plants as a natural trimming process. only trouble is....most fish that eat plants are either too big, or like algae better. according to the process of Static Solution Culture, i have partially raised the roots of my houseplants out of the water, even the large palm. some plants immediately did better, some are still recovering from the rot that was taking place. the money tree was a specific case where the trunks of the tree left underwater caused severe rot to them and they are still soft and brittle. i also added 2 philodendron to the tank, hanging their roots over the middle bar andtrailing them across the top of the water and over either side of the tank. (btw nereus, philodendron is a good plant for this and is worth considering in your case.) i received a sprig of naja grass with my order of crystal blue shrimp, and it has really taken off, growing to the top of the tank already. it makes a good plant to stick in between the large rocks for anchorage.

fauna additions to the tank have been a dalmation sailfin molly and a male and female gold gourami. almost all the live-bearers have bred or are pregnant (of course). i was hoping to have fewer babies survive but most of the things that chase them cant seem to catch them. when i bought the black mollies at the LFS (which has recently shut down), i told them to give me a male and two females, thinking that was a simple enough task, and what i got was a a female and two males. the female has recently died, probably due to being over-exherted. the dalmation sailfin molly (fathers day present) is a female though and now they spend all their time harrassing her, but she seems big enough to not care. i dont know if they can cross breed or not. i had originally thought all my surviving babies were guppies but thats not true! yesterday i saw a juvenile female betta hiding amongst the river rocks i had put in in anticipation of the dwarf cichlids. the 2 ghost shrimp and the 8 crystal blue shrimp also spend most of their time hiding in the rocks, and i only see a few at a time when i see any at all, so im only assuming they all survived. i also ordered 3 species of water fleas and a species of cyclops and threw in the tank, but i couldnt see any after the first day, so free-swimming food didnt pan out. i am down to 2 otos, but it isnt the stagnant water that seems to be affecting their numbers so much as their sensitivity to temperature fulctuation. since it has gotten hotter, the tank reaches 80 degrees during the day and drops to 76 at night, and thats when they started dying. but this is a guess as well, because the two that have survived look very healthy and unphased. i plan on getting a new group of them, as my results have not caused me to give up. the pond snails are out of control. there must be a hundred of them by now, and even the smaller ones are able to breed. my next purchase will be 4 assassin snails lol.

the algae has gone through some interesting cycles. first it was cyanobacteria coating everything. then as the tank cycled, the cyano disappeared and GSA began to take over. next the GSA gave way to green dust algae, and the algae eating things in the tank took a minute to adjust to the new food, first clearing out all the left over GSA, even off of the snail shells. the GDA is still there, although now a prominent culture of some sort of green beardish algae is taking over. the mollies and swordtails seem to munch on it, but nothing else likes it that much.


----------



## ianjones

my aquarium coughed up a hairball


----------



## xenxes

The bettas aren't ripping eachother to shreds!? How big is the tank?


----------



## ianjones

the bettas are 3 females and only one male. they are pretty aggressive toward each other, but not toward anything else. the male chases the females with his free time, but when he has the nest going he doesnt go far from it. he will chase them a little ways if they get too close, but its a 75gal and they have enough space to coexist. the females actually fight amongst one another too, and form a rank and file system with the lowest female getting chased by every other betta in the tank lol


----------



## ianjones

its been a while since my last update, and its been a bit of a hectic time in the tank. the most good news is about the houseplants. the static solution culture really helped out, and a lot of the houseplants that were dying with their roots fully submerged are now coming back to life with their roots only partially submerged. the money tree seems to be the only irrecoverable one. the philodendron is doing great with itsw roots fully submerged. the new tomato plant grew from a seed into a very big plant and its spidery roots kind of clog up what was once some free space in the tank. the water hyacinth has bloomed once and reproduced twice. the bamboo grows very nicely once it gets a piece of itself above the water line. there is a thick blanket of what i call duckweed over most of the water surface now. i dont know how it got in there but it serves as a pretty efficient natural lid for the tank, and even makes me wonder if i can add hatchetfish...ive been keeping my eye out for the smaller, marbled ones i used to see all the time, but never had much luck with. 

Of the bad things, there was a very long wait for the green hair algae to die down. i had to do 2 removals of it simply because it blocked out so much light for the other plants that i didnt think some of them could wait the algae out like i could. but recently, its died back some and i hope the trend continues. im not sure if anything eats that stuff. maybe the snails. buts its giving way to a little more green spot algae which is much more palatable to the herbivores.

i believe ive already mentioned that a couple of bad batches of worms nearly wiped out my worm colonies in the half-submerged cups. well, the one cup that still had a surviving worm colony got decimated by fish when i accidentally let the water line go over the cup on top of that, the only lfs around that sold blackworms just closed, and ive had trouble with receiving anything ordered online. so, for the last 2 months, im back to feeding the aquarium. i think i may plan an extra tank or something to breed the worms in, unharrassed, so that i do not have to endure such a hardship the next time i screw something up 

and finally, theres the fungus. i have a confession to make. i dont quarantine my fish that often. and honestly, i always expect the tank to get diseased. i never kept shrimp before because of that reason haha. but unlike my other tanks this tank does have two different species of shrimp, and more importantly, is full of plants that it relies on to operate properly. its in my best interest not to kill either, and most medicines would. the fungus came in on a new molly i bought. it, and the three other mollies died, and the bettas were very susceptible, being that they arent as hardy as described, and that when they live together, they are naturally very aggressive. but they do tend to scuffle a bit and a fin will get ripped from time to time, and that caused them to be prime targets for the fungus. it wiped them all out. even the juveniles that were getting to be half as big as the adults. all the mature female guppies died, and some of the babies died. one of the adult platys died. the swordtails, both juvenile and mature, have endured no ill effects. nothing in the tank currently has it, but the platy died of it recently, so it was still around at that point. i have done some pretty large water changes, though i doubt the seriousness of that solution. so i am faced with the options of risking some sort of low level medication over a period of time, accepting it as a reality of the tank, or think of something else. i would readily accept it as a reality of the tank, as the more hardy fish of any of the species arent bothered by it, even the more aggressive dwarf cichlids that spend their days warring with one another. but the bettas aggression, combined with its intolerance, makes the tank a very hostile place for them. and i am very partial to bettas an anabantoids. i even tried putting a second batch in there once the fungus looked like it had cleared up and they all got the fungus and died 

to end on a positive note though, there have been a few new additions to the tank. our neighbor has recently gotten into fishkeeping as well, and has started a similar project, so she gave me some of her leopard guppies to replace the adult females i lost. while i wanted to wait until after i had gotten the blackworm thing right, i went ahead and started putting in dwarf cichlids. as of now there are 4 adult bolivian rams and 4 juvenile german blue rams (there is also a handicapped one but i dont count it.). the rams do quite well in their fussing and fighting and are hardy enough to not get the fungus so far. i think i also added 2 more otos so theres 4 now.


----------



## ianjones

i have changed things around a lot in the past week, and it was long overdue. i had been very busy for a while doing something with my business and have only had little bits of time to tend to things. but, positively, it did give me time enough to better view befores and afters of the slower processes that take place in the tank.

my experiment with the houseplants is coming to a close for now. it is still a very exciting experiment, but the tanks light mainly comes through the back glass, and most houseplants develop very large root systems. but to be properly hydroponically grown in this environment, the roots must not be fully submerged, meaning that their expansive root systems must stay at the water column and grow downward, blocking the light from the aquatic plants and in some cases, creating large pockets of space in the water column that are unusable to most fish. not being limited by CO2 and O2 in the water, they are also able to uptake much more nutrients than the aquatic plants that do not grow to the surface, starving them out. I am still keeping the plants that can grow as true emergents. the water hyacinth, the arcorus grass, the lucky bamboo, and one of the philodendrons will stay in the tank for now. the change shifted the balance in the tank a bit as some of the weakened aquatic plants begin to grow back and reinput themselves into the balance. but, after a week, things are looking better already. taking the cups off the back of the tank was another thing i did. i no longer needed them to hold the houseplants in place, and i wanted to modify my worm breeders to something larger and clear.

i did finally get some new worms in the mail, and i did set up the new worm farm. at first i tried my plastic window planter. i thought it would hold plenty of dirt and water for the worms, and that they could still escape through the bottom when they needed to so the fish could eat them. so i bent a metal clotheshanger appropriately and hung it in the water. it was actually working very well for the worms, and they were doing everything they were supposed to. but it was too deep for the plants with the amount of soil that was in there. if i had put more soil, the planter wouldve become too heavy, plus the worms wouldve possibly had to crawl through too much non-oxygenated dirt to get through to the bottom. it also blocked out far too much sun from the back of the aquarium.

so i went to target in the storage section and got a small, shallow, clear, tupperwarish container and hooked it to the back of the tank much the same fashion as i did the window planter. it let much more light in, and i wanted to put the worms in with no dirt so i could observe them better and see if they would still live, but getting the worms out of the window planter without getting the dirt was very challenging, and plenty ended up in the container with the worms. i ordered 3/4lb of blackworms and had put all but enough to colonize the window planter in the bottom of the aquarium. but mysteriously, the worms in the container died, while the worms in the bottom of the tank are still alive. it couldve been that the worms in the container did not have enough food, or it could be that they were receiving too much direct sun, but i think the most probable cause was that i only put one hole in the bottom of the container, and there was not enough water exchange between the container and the tank, like there was with the planter cups.

i also didnt like the way it tilted when it hung on the back by a clotheshanger, so instead of trying again with the same container, i ordered a 3-chambered dipcup that should be here any day. it is clear (not that it matters because hopefully this will be short enough to hang over the short edge of the tank.) and the 3 chambers will allow me to try the no-dirt experiment without defiling the other 2 chambers.

after a couple months with only commercial flake and pellet food, the addition of the worms to the tank has increased the overall health of the fish exponentially and even visibly. the fish are all fat and healthy, and the juveniles are all growing rapidly. the algae is lessening, and the behaviour of some of the fish has even changed. aside from pairing up, the rams have even adjusted their territories and/or reclaimed new ones. the reclusive shrimp have come out like a hive of bees and they are so clear, you can see the worms in their bellies after they eat them.

very interestingly, i see no more signs of the fungus, even among the new betta family. all the new fish acclimated to the tank almost instantly once the worms were in there. the fungus is still in the tank. maybe always will be. maybe always was. but the fish are no longer getting it because their immune systems are proper now.

my neighbor gave me a sprig of some red plant she had that wasnt doing well in her tank, and it has made me think that i could use a little ashetics in the tank, maybe even beyond just de-cluttering. i wonder what a tank of all red plants would look like. i was thinking of possibly all the plants be reddish plants, except some green carpet grass on the bottom and some green floating/emergent plants on top. i bought another red plant and some dwarf hairgrass to add to the flora of the tank


----------



## Flear

while doing my endless reading on the net, ... somewhere mentioned ramshorn snails will deal with blue-geen algae (Cyanobacteria)

coral rock can also raise PH

hardest search i've come across now, ...algae can it be used to help ammonia & nitrate levels in the tank, ... haven't found a single article online about considering algae "good". but i like the staghorn algae i have, it's quickly becomming excesssive. no one talks about it's dark blue-green color, or how it looks like junk in the water seems to stick to it. (or i'm getting green dust algae, ... gotta look into it, (most pictures online don't help in identifying things till after you've already figured out what you've got)


----------



## ecotanker

Algae are being use for filtration. Check out algaescrubber.net which focus on the use of algae to filter aquariums. The upflow algae scrubber design is the one that I am testing out. It allow fish to eat the algae, otherwise we would need to harvest the algae by hand for the filter to work. I applaud you two for working on self-sustaining tank, that is my goal too.


----------



## Flear

ecotanker, ... that's an idea i never would have thought of on my own, it's elaborate, but looks worth it.


----------



## ianjones

cynobacteria isnt algae, and lots of times its poisonous. ive read reports of ppl saying their snails, rcs, otos, etc eating it, but i cant report any of that. it did LOOK like the snails were eating the cyano once it started to break down, but i dont have proof thats what they were doing. they couldve been eating an algae slime beneath it. fun fact: cyanobacteria was almost solely responsible for earth's earliest atmosphere. but the cyano was only in the tank while i was dumping start right in. i havent seen a trace of it after that. 

the constant experimentation on my tank throws the nutrient balance for a loop. and every time, theres algae. usually ive just let it subside on its own, but this last time i had to manually remove algae because i had used too many house plants and starved the aquatic plants, then the vine-like algae hit at the same time as the green crusty stuff and it blocked a lot of sun from the tank for a while. ive observed that my algae problems usually get the worst when im using commercial foods in the tank.

ecotanker, do you keep a journal of your tank that i can see?

flear, i loved hearing you say that you are minimizing your fish size to 4" even though you have a 90gal. thats exactly what i chose as well, and its a sound idea for obvious reasons. the female swordtail is the biggest fish in my tank, and ive been thinking of taking out because they get so big and the females honestly dont do much but graze all day and demolish the food source. 

the baby swordtails grew very rapidly once the worms were in the tank and ive been having to net some out, as i am able to catch them. word of advice. careful what you put in a tank like this. its hard to get out haha. 

here is a trouble that i am having at the moment and maybe you two could help me, since we are both on the same train of thought. as noted earlier in this journal, the presence of the livebearers is supposed to be a food source, much like cattle. i was hoping their offspring would provide some nice live food for more carnivorous fish. but ive noticed that a lot of things you would read in a fish atlas about a fish dont apply to this tank, particularly when it comes to aggression and behaviour in general. with the ever-presence of the worms, everything eats when it wants to and nothing seems much willing to chase down the fry to eat them. or more likely, they are but im still getting too many surviving (about 20-25 each breed). id be happier with 1 every 3 or 4 breeds. the bolivian rams dont seem to affect their population and they are the biggest dwarf cichlid i planned on using in the tank. so, i have two choices. i can remove the livebearers and lean more heavily toward egg-laying species, which, in theory would be less likely to survive and more likely to become food. or my second choice would be to find a fish that maintains a more piscivorous diet, even with the worms in there. i was thinking of a south american leaf fish (monocirrhus polyacanthus). they grow to less than 4", and they already love the stillwater environment (water specs are a little off but im not frightened by that). however, ive seen them on youtube eating fish that are nearly half their size, which could put adults of smaller species, like otos, male guppies, etc. but then you have the question of would they behave that way in this tank, and would they do it enough to detrimentally affect the project. so im wondering if anyone knows of any other choices that might be better, or at least comparable?


----------



## Flear

had guppies awhile ago no, (got rid of them for their breeding problem)

while looking at solutions on keeping the population in check Bettas were talked about. one lady posted her experience.

in the end she had a ton of little fry and a fat lazy betta.

from experience here with the guppies we had, we didn't just want to see them eaten, something about that seems cruel despite ideas of what fish will eat guppy/guppy fry, ... a single female gave birth to near 20 of them, so it's easy to see how the one lady just had a fat lazy betta in the end 

as for me having 4" fish, they better be important for the tank, staghorn algae eaters are so far turning out to be 5-6" fish  haven't even looked at if they're community fish or not at that size. that would strip all the staghorn out of the tank and the fish would go hungry  i'm sure, (i'm guessing), i'm sure even a single one full grown at that size would 

back to guppies, ... while searching those, there's lots of concerns about them turning into "i've got 400 in my 20gallon tank" and no one takes them seriously other than freaking on them. they know they have a problem but don't want to flush that many healthy fish. i was asking at work (for my own guppy problem) does anyone have fish that would eat them, no one did (either no tank or no carnivorous fish)

looking at the LFS, i think i blame aquarium & fish stores in general, no education amoungst staff about "do you know what your up against if you get these ?", or "sure we'll take in your excess guppies (M & F) and sell them to unsuspecting people" much like me wondering why they're selling a clown loach, ... it's a 16" fish (selling at about 2-3" so it's still cute), they don't sell 150gallon tanks, what are they selling that fish for ?

that's been my biggest problem about searching for fish online and forums, ... everyone says "get this fish" and ignores "you've got a 20 gallon tank" clown loach for snail control (16"), Siamese algae eater for algae control (6") these are the fish people are talking about for control when the person mentions they have a 50gallon or smaller tank. not considering self-sustaining thats cruel 

i'm still floored of people talking about the common pleco for algae control in any tank of any size, ... 18"+ fish, when small it's a medeocre algae eater, when it gets big it doesn't care about algae at all, ... little known amongst most people. and when they're larger/older, they've got a taste for protien, mostly from the skin/scales of other fish (no one talks about them having teeth, ... why does any fish need teeth ?)

as for my tank idea, ... 90gallon, 4" fish max, ... that combination is alright if i can find a solo fish, if it's a community fish i have to keep looking 

---

enough of my ranting

everything i've come across for fish & diet, ... some fish care nothing for processed foods. others will go after flakes & pellets, then ignore what you got the fish for (algae or whatever). i think it's true with fish as with most things, ... lazy

by default if we have a choice we are lazy, much like our fish. we need extra discipline to run a mile every day, otherwise we are lazy and will sit watching 5 hours of TV every day.... it's just easier.

for fish, a tasty morsel that you just have to wait to stick it's head out is a far easier meal than one you have to chase down and may not catch, ... despite the reality (i'm guessing) that most things will feel better and be happier, less stressed if they have to survive this way.

i've heard of tigers in a zoo, they just sat there waiting for their food. someone intruduced some ground pulley thing to run out dead rabbits or whatnot for lunch, and the tigers started to breed.

what i've come across for aquariums, most all advice is using fish for control and maintenance, ... algae some point to shrimp but fish is the default.

for fish control, ... no one talks about frogs, frog default, they'll eat anything they can catch and fit in their mouth. frogs range from passivly eating everything they can to being very agressive about it (and so for that frog it's a frog only tank) frogs need air though, ... appearently 18" of water is too much and your dwarf frogs may sufficate and die off  so i didn't consider frogs anymore

turtles are good for eating everything, ... wait, i mean that literaly, "everything", all fish, every fish, your plants, all plants every plant, ... so i didn't look at turtles anymore

from your findings about worms, ... thanks for the findings, ... i have thought about them and didn't realize the fish may ignore everything else if there's easy worms to get too.

back to fish eating fish, ... aside from the betta adice for guppy fry, ... i gave that search up when it was appearent that all suggestions involved fish large enough to eat adult fish too 

your right about the patience thing 

be it plants or fish, i don't think it's just patience in putting the tank together, i think patience is also the species, ... like plants, there's fast growing plants there's slow growing plants (and there's everything in between). fast growing plants can take over or have to be pruned, so fast plants didn't appeal to me, something slower that would give a nice effect when done was more appealing to me.

till i thought about a tank with herbivore fish, and suddenly i may be reconsidering fast growing plants specificaly so the fish have lots to eat and the plants aren't at risk.

same with fish, guppies are like horny rabbits, not as bad as star-treks tribbles though  "they're born pregnant"

picking fish that reproduce at a rate relative to how quickly the young will be eaten.

some will always survive, and they'll grow up to continue the population as the older ones die off.

as they die off you need something for rot control, shrimp are always suggested, and watching the pet stores, so long as the fish aren't overfed, a dead fish is a tasty snack for everything else in the tank. then the dead fish is disposed of before it causes an ammonia spike.

i like Malaysian Trumpet Snails for their reportings (and i agree in my own tank) they keep the substrait healthy, burrowing through it, preventing dead zones (hard to find an equaivelant in a marine tank) snails are also good for cleaning the rest of the tank. but snail control is hard , unless you want a larger fish.

assassin snails are always talked about, and they burrow into the substrait as well (say goodbye to your MTS). assassin snails are not canabilistic, they reproduce as well, just very slowly, and i have no idea about their dietary prefernces or requirements.

i've heard of a spixie snail, does not burrow (round shell) they are cannabilistic, ... that's an idea as they'll also keep themselves in check and i can keep my tried and true MTS

for fish snail control, ... 3 loaches are 4" max that deal with snails at all, 2 of those are not community fish friendly (so species only tank (well that sucks), one of the remaining 2 is community tank friendly, but on the endangered species list (us aquarists don't really pay attention to the fish we're getting so we don't notice if our demand is stripping a species off the planet 

the last loach, the zebra loach, is community friendly, is a community fish itself, is a 4" fish, ... 1"/gallon rule of thumb, ... 20" of fish in a 90 gallon tank to handle snails, ... they'll strip out the entire snail population that surfaces, leaving nothing to sustain itself or maintain the tank to fill a niche in the tank, ... damn, back to the drawing board.

i have kuhli loaches, they're fun to watch, they have fun in the tank  bits i've read i expect all loaches to be very active if not playfull in the tank.

so far spixie snails for snail control. will have to look into them more if i'm serious about them.

there isn't much talk at all on the net about fish eating other fish in a balanced system 
i don't think there is much saying "what fish eat lots vs. normal vs. rarely", ... goldfish & pleco's do eat lots (and poop lots) freshwater clams don't eat much at all in one sense only, ... most things will starve to death in days or weeks, the freshwater clam which can be gotten as a live filter for your tank may take months to a year or more to starve to death.

odd thought, ... get or borrow a goldfish, it will eat everything it can fit in it's mouth, will likely go for the worms you've got first, but next on the foodchain is little fry, as the goldfish gets bigger it will eat larger and larger fish, ... then it will be eating your adult guppies, ... remove it before this happens or find someone who has a fish that will eat your guppies.

guppies, ... no one talks about them as feeder fish but they breed to fast to do anything else with. know anyone with an oscar ?, or get one yourself ?

my interest in daphnia and other zooplankton, all i've come across involves lots of different tanks/buckets

a seller/breeder of daphnia cultures i found ...

one of those 45gallon plastic drums, a goldfish or 2, to produce green water
-change goldfish or water or culture, or whatever, ...

add daphnia culture to water (without goldfish), ... when the water goes clear again (well not green), the daphnia have eaten all the green-water algae

then you can put them in your tank and your fish will have a festival 

thats 3 tanks min. though

fish tank
daphnia culture
algae bloom culture
(somewhere another tank to change tings over)

not a self-sustaing environment
easy to go high-tech and have seperate tanks ank cultures and more equipment
and all the man-hours to maintain it all

what i've also come across, fish stress and environments, the more stressed, the more agressive, it sounds like the best way to keep happy fish is to look out for there environmental preferences.

i haven't come across enough info the generalize herbivore vs. water flow.
but those fish that prefer flowing water are usualy taken care of by people who throw a powerhead in a square tank and say "good enough", and the internet insists no one has ever had luck breeding them.

those who have created a direction through the tank though have had success
http://www.loaches.com/articles/hillstream-loaches-the-specialists-at-life-in-the-fast-lane
so there's "happy fish"
a powerhead in a square tank must do little more than take the edge off, but not make them comfortable

like round tanks in general, ... they're sold to be filled as a regular aquarium, and sold to be tall, at eye level because the asthetics to us is obviously more important than the fish being happy.

they're almost square, (3'round, over 3' tall), the same basic size of all aquariums
regular rectangular aquariums, ... provide the aquarium experience, a long tank you can put against a wall, not too deep so it doesn't stand out too far from the wall, and nice and tall you can fit more in there.

most fish like hiding spots, ... we sell plastic shaped logs and sucken ships, wood peices that aren't much to hide in, and stones that are once again square.

i'm going to the hardware store and getting tiles, they're large, flat, and i can make them whatever size afterwards, ... then take a file and grind off whateve edges created when breaking them. i should probably sand off whatever they've glued to the surface as i doubt that's safe (once again asthetics because a polished floor you walk is so important, and it can't be slippery, else you'll sue - course that drives a lot of the US economy)

but back to where your coming from, ... patience

i look at things and, what eats what, and what is eaten, what does it eat

2" fish doesn't give a lot of room for building a food-chain, they're usualy at the the bottom of it.

but like all fish, even at 2" fully grown, they do need to eat, usualy omnivores, with tendancies to more plant or protien diets, but there are a few herbivore fish at that size (usually a tendancy towards algae)

at that size even the so called "herbivores" eat algae to also get at the zooplankton that are living in it
(protien is good, that's what she said) LOL

for 2" fish i never considered smaller fish, or fry for diets, dono why, for carnivorous fish would absolutly make sense.

but for carnivorous fish i would have to consider another link in an already cramped food-chain

so i went to zoo-plankton and ultimately/recently to herbivore-type fish for my search.
i doubt i'm going to find a stricktly herbivore fish, i will find fish that will have such a high plant diet that things like daphnia would be perfect though. ... some of that daphnia get large , 5mm in size for the larger species, ... that's huge for a 2" fish, ... but some fish are seen eating other fish near half their size, ... but i'm sorry i just can't imagine myself eating an entire cat in one mouthfull.

back to food-chain, ... little tetras need to eat, and if it's little fry, or baby shrimp, those fry and shrimp grow up till they are too large to eat.

small critters like zooplankton are seen to reproduce ever few hours or couple days, how they stay alive, through sheer numbers.

as Dianna K found, ... a single 2" fish in her 30 gallon cleared out the daphina population in a couple weeks, ... that was lots of food for thought.

daphnia like most zooplankton don't move fast (at any size), it's just strickly they reproduce worse than tribbles
and they're eaten in turn.

but they need to eat too, ...

so i looked at this

zooplankton need to eat
zooplankton are eaten (by fish)
if there's a carnivore, they eat fish
if there's no carnivor, saves a link in the food-chain
fish poop and die
and that needs to be taken care of
ammonia and nitrates are released and those need to be taken care of

that's 7 links to add a carnivore
6 links without
that's a lot for a 90 gallon tank


----------



## Flear

i did a little less research on lighting

marine zooplankton benefit from actinic lighting
actinic 460 doesn't produce as much UV light that can bleach coral
actinic 420 i'm not so keen on

actinic sounds like it benefits algae, soneone used that to produce a wall of algae so i'll agree
6700k lighting benefits everything

the red spectrums that plants benifit from most are almost never sufficiently provided, and are usually toned down.
green spectrums for plants are strickly for our eyes (not the plants) for asthetics

actinic + 10,000k lighting seems to offer way too much blue for marine in my opinion, and not enough of anything else, aside from enough green to appeal to the buyer (us)

enough reds in any lighting are ... i've never seen anything i'm satisfied with promoting

there is enough green in any lighting to be beneficial for all animal life, so i don't care, all we use it for is to look at things, plants use red and blue to survive, else they starve

but when it comes to benefiting plankton and zooplankton, when considering algae as a benefit to a healthy tank, i gave up searching for these where lighting is concerned as people don't care or consider them all to be pests.

including one guy that had cyclops and refused to see it was free food for his fish, he wanted it gone and would not listen to anything else. some where asking to get ahold of his cyclops for him, he didn't care

too much ignorance. as walstad mentioned, decades ago, care was given to a self-sustainging tank, but thats too much work and decades later too much "impossible"

so if we do figure out what it takes to build and keep a self-sustaining tank, one of us has to write a book  get his/her name right beside walstad


----------



## Flear

recently i've been inclined to search for natural ways to increase CO2 in a tank other than fish)

atmoshpere is 300-350ppm through history, recent age it's 400 and climbing

in horticulture years ago, max benifit in plants (the plant we were dealing with) is about 1200ppm. it isn't till 1500+ that things start to go south again

that peak is also a combination of light, temp, nutrients, to get that peek plant metabolism

plenty of DIY CO2, and store bought devices, but no idea what to use to increase CO2 that doesn't add poop into the mix otherwise


----------



## ianjones

no, there isnt much out there about self-sustaining projects.

http://www.tuncalik.com/2009/07/my-aquariums-at-home-july-2009/

this guys the man though

from my experience, daphnia isnt going to work as well for you as the blackworms. the problem with both is that they are so exposed. you can conquer that problem (with the worms) with the cups half-submersed in water (i have more in depth explanations earlier in the journal). i am thinking of adding daphnia again WITH a new batch of worms and see if the fish still want to chase them so much, but i dont have high hopes for the result.

as far as the carnivores on the food chain, im definitely going to have to go outside of "community safe" to find what im looking for and i imagine you will too, if you choose to pursue that). the leaf fish seems to fit most of the bills here but i may have to grow out some of the livebearer colony first, so that i might closely observe its behaviour to see if it prefers bigger or smaller fish. im also wondering if a catfish wouldnt just do the trick though. im sure whatever i find to work on the fry will work on the shrimp too. the snails have definitely reproduced enough in the tank to be considered a food source. personally, im favoring freshwater dwarf puffers for the job, despite my rather comical previous attempts at mixing puffers with other fish. they only grow to about 1.5". again the water conditions are a little off, but im usually lucky with that kind of thing so i always go for it. im most worried about the bettas lol.

as far as bettas eating guppy fry, i thought maybe so, too....but forget it. those things couldnt catch a cold. i might be able to get better results with smaller tetras, actually. the male bettas are pretty aggressive but hes so slow and once hes got that bubble nest up and there are a bunch of egg-filled females around, hes not going very far from the nest for a loooong time haha.

i know about lighting in a general sense, but am not using it on this project, so i havent studied past what i already know. i just use the sun to light my tank. it has its ups and downs but its part of the "no-tech" theme. perhaps on a future project i will have occasion to know better about lighting. this is also my first planted tank experience so i have no past frame of reference either. co2 is the same way. i know a lot about it, but not the products :/

you could, of course, write a book or publication about the findings of your experiment. it also has commercial applications. this tank goes through hell because im constantly experimenting on it and adding and subtracting from its balance. but im very certain that i can stabilize this exact same set-up (in a 55g+ and with less clutter) for the purpose of profitable breeding of a good portion of commercially-sold freshwater fish.


----------



## Flear

i have not looked into it, ... but the assassin tetra (if i remember the name correctly)
saw a video it ate a fish near half it's size 

i've considered dwarf puffers, ... only going on what i've read, ... they're territorial.
now i don't know if that means they tend to stake out their claim or if they want the whole tank and share with other puffers, ... but that's going on what i've read.

how was your experience with puffers before ?, what else did you have in the tank ?

your cups for blackworms, ... i've heard simular for people raising freshwater clams, (actually i forgot about that till you mentioned it.

as you mention using fish that are not community safe, ... that brings up some interesting thoughts. really all we're doing is looking at maintaining an eco-system, ... that includes population control, your right, that's going to take some fish that are not community friendly. that may be where i'm going to have to consider a 4" fish, oddly, or a goldfish, ... i know a horrible fish to have for a self-sustaining tank, ... but if the goldfish is happy on it's own, they're pigs, they eat everything, heard snails are no exception (well small ones i'm assuming - in my current tank (29gal), small is mini-ramshorn & pond snails (both about 5mm full grown), a goldfish would have a blast in there, i don't think anything would appreciate it though  well maybe the snails - more food for them)

a golfish for me in any tank would be more of a last resort,


----------



## Flear

found some pictures online that showed MTS snails with their shells in sad states, ... when i read that acidic or soft water is very bad and can lead to their shells disolving i didn't think they were talking about all of it, those little guys almost have round shells as it's they've lost all their old shell 

mine are missing the points on their shells, ... like the last mm of the oldest part of their shell on the largest MTS i've got in the tank, ... that's what i was thinking, ... turns out i've less than nothing to worry about.


----------



## Flear

for breeding freshwater fish, ... pick something rare 
if i persue that avenue with my round tank i'll make a small fortune from "unbreedable" fish that want fast river flow water.


----------



## ecotanker

Ian, I have no photojournal yet and am to busy at the moment. I recently move and have just restarted my tanks, but the goal of a self sustaining tank is the holy grail for quite a few people in th hobby.

I am inspired by tanks like the one here:

Tom's Bucket of mud

I am working on getting the substrate right at the moment with my own variation on
EHS

There is a way to add more CO2 in the water without adding fish. Add something rich in humic acid like leonarditet othe sustrate. Or use something like a Carbon from Aerobic Respiration Reactor with dried leaves for the fuel. I am testing both at the moment in my one of my current tank.

Currently thinking about flow and filtration too and am testing so of the concepts brought to my attention by Niko, a member of APC.

I am restricting myself to nano fishes, 1-2 inches at most, for my system.

A good piscovore is the indian glass fish, which is often painted, so finding naturals one are hard. One of the smaller halfbeak is also a possibility.

If there are too many guppies, I would remove as many as I can and get the least killie fish to be my herbivore. They give birth to a few frys per day, so predators are not overwhelm with a large number of preys.

Cheers.


----------



## Flear

tom's bucket of mud inspired me and my tank


----------



## ecotanker

Here is another tank that I find inspiring, perhaps you two have came across it? In any case, here it is
No tech aquarium


----------



## Flear

seen it, yet to tell myself, "you know you really should read through that, how about now"

just finished reading through the "enhanced Humus Solution" it got my mind going for sure, ... i'm hesitant about adding anything that is known to be "easily soluble in water" and i'm hesitant about a tank i couldn't take full advantage of Malaysian trumpet snails to keep the substrate from forming Anaerobic pockets in it

the whole thing gave me much to think on, i just can't post to hear what Ukamikazu would have to say about it


----------



## Flear

reading around, ... we know overfeeding can cause problems, ... but ... it sounds like there are additional benefits as well.

it goes counter to a self-sustaining aquarium but ...
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/carbon_dioxide_planted_tank.php
... "In fact, a fully cycled biofilter will produce 1 gram of CO2 within 24 hours for every gram of dry food added to the tank."

i dono if i fully believe that quote, as "well i added 30 grams of food and my tank is dying" (in a 10 gallon tank i could see this happening), ... we're not usually that ignorant in the hobby, but on the realistic side, it does pose some understanding of some of our CO2 sources


----------



## ecotanker

I may be over thinking the substrate part, as the no tech aquariums show. I noticed that Ian put a link to it in an earlier post. I apologize for the duplication.

I am thinking maybe a fresh water
deep sand bed
would be the easier way to go, and allows mts snails to live in it.

A large sand bed being a biofilter the length and width of the tank will add CO2 evenly through the tanks with no need for a circulation pump.


----------



## Flear

i guess this is where i kick myself.

i've been thinking about as thin a substrate layer as i can get away with, sounds like 1.5"

so without your input i wouldn't have considered it to be important to be thick. i know it makes sense, more surface area for bacteria, ... i came across a page that said that bacteria also produces most of the CO2 in the tank. 

Ecotanker, wasn't till you mentioned the deep sand bed that they clicked together, ... definitly looking into that now

my previous thinking was stopping at the aerobic layer, paranoid about the anaerobic layer

that site you mentioned does open up lots of info to rethink and move farther , thanks


----------



## Flear

i'm going to guess your self-sustaining tank has fallen apart. correct me if i'm wrong.

have you looked into the role that various micro-organisms play ?

namely phytoplankton & zooplankton ?

i'm looking at incorporating greenwater, cladocera, daphnia are easy to purchase but larger than my personal preferences, moina are next on the list, (about the largest zooplankton species i'm comfortable with) 

rotifers are small, size is great, but their lack of natural nutritional value i am not so concerned with them.

adding aquatic worms for detritus feeders (blackworms are all i've seen on the market i can buy)

as detritus feeders are not talked about as such in the hobby it's hard to find variety
as bethnic & sessile detritus feeders are almost unknown anywhere other than they are mentioned in scientific papers... 

strictly guessing, ... a 40 gallon breeder tank may be able to support 2 flagfish if it's heavily planted, ... being omnivores with a plant-based preference.

adding shrimp if algae is not kept under control
adding clams if the water remains too green with phytoplankton.

---

actually as accidents would have it, ... i'm guessing the local stream may have plenty that i'd like to put in my tank. i got a small sample from the stream just for it's greenwater potential, ... found it's got what looks like small zooplankton (of a perfect size), i have no idea about their dietary preferences or reproductive potential, or if they're bethnic or i just happen to see them on the side of the bucket i have that greenwater in. water is also rich in what i'm guessing is small planaria.

only source i remember seeing about collecting plants from the wild mentioned a preference to avoid water populated with fish to avoid any diseases or parasites that affect fish. ... on occasion i've added some of this water to the tank and no adverse affects on any of the fish due to this water.

an ammonia spike that i think is more related to the malaysian trumpet snail population that is eating the bacteria that is processing ammonia for the nitrogen cycle... i have assassin snails on order to solve this issue.

---

most everything i've seen is concerned with things you can get from your LFS, and things you can visibly see. there is awareness of the bacteria for the nitrogen cycle, but no other concern for any other level in the tank.

in the wild things start and end with bacteria.

bacteria break down detritus into the final nutrients that are available for phytoplankton. phytoplankton start the food chain for everything that doesn't eat strictly plants.

---

flagfish i am prefering for their size and diet.
2.4" max size expected (2.2" average expected)
omnivore with herbivore tendencies.
most omnivores with herbivore tendancies are 4" fish or larger
most herbivores are 6" fish or larger

daphnia on the market are pulex (2-3mm adults) or magna (5mm adults) tends to request larger fish that can eat critters this size.

moina are about 1/4 the size of D. Magna.
as such can use smaller fish.

omnivores won't have strickly one dietary preference and as such won't eat only one thing into extinction.

critters with a plant-based diet eat & poop lots, lots of detritus.

adding critters that deal with detritus helps break this down and in turn offers additional food (takes pressure off zooplankton as the sole source of food in the aquarium.

snails and blackworms help turn the substrate over (healthier substrate)

bacterial processes in the substrate will release more nutrients into the water column for phytoplankton.

---

it's all theory.

off to look and see if assassin snails will eat blackworms.
searches for assassin snails eating clams is fruitless. as people can't take care of clams (not feeding them, not providing food for them, phytoplankton is perfect food for them) there is no information about this combination in the aquarium (assassin snails and clams)

i'm thinking of clams only if the greenwater is too dense to help thin it out.

i would love to find sources of sessile rotifers. or other sessile micro-critters. as this would add potential for fish that sift through the substrate and eat algae as it's a source of these sessile critters (source of protein) but sessile critters just are not on the market for things you can purchase.

---

searches have turned into a lot of "how can i find and identify what i get from local streams and other still water sources", ... these searches have all turned up blank.


----------

