# Alternative to Flourish Excel?



## jackgood

Is there an alternative product out there that provides the same affect as Flourish Excel? It's pretty hard to come by where I live. None of the big box stores stock it and the little local fish stores will only keep one or two small bottles in stock at a time. I was just wondering if there's an alternative that the big box stores would keep on hand. Anyone know?


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## Newt

You can buy it online at places like www.thatfishplace.com and www.drsfostersmith.com.
There are other places.

I place two large orders a year and save big time. The LFS is too expensive.


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## StillLearning

jackgood said:


> Is there an alternative product out there that provides the same affect as Flourish Excel? It's pretty hard to come by where I live. None of the big box stores stock it and the little local fish stores will only keep one or two small bottles in stock at a time. I was just wondering if there's an alternative that the big box stores would keep on hand. Anyone know?


You can use MetriCide 14. I have been using it daily in my 55 gallon with CO2. I dose it the same as Excel. I have not noticed any difference between the two except the money in my pocket now. I bought a gallon off ebay with shipping it was $28.00


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## medicTHREE

MetriCide 14 works just the same, you will have to buy it online though as your pet stores will NOT have it. Dealmed.com has it for about 26 bucks shipped. It is normally used as a disinfectant(but is the same ingredient as in excel).


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## StillLearning

medicTHREE said:


> MetriCide 14 works just the same, you will have to buy it online though as your pet stores will NOT have it. Dealmed.com has it for about 26 bucks shipped. It is normally used as a disinfectant(but is the same ingredient as in excel).


Thanks for that site didnt even know about them and there even closer..


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## jackgood

MetriCide 14, is that something that can be bought in bulk and stored long term? All the sites I've read on it say it's good for 14 days (hence the number 14.) Or is that simply for it's intended medical use and not applicable for what we would use it for?


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## DarioDario

jackgood said:


> MetriCide 14, is that something that can be bought in bulk and stored long term? All the sites I've read on it say it's good for 14 days (hence the number 14.) Or is that simply for it's intended medical use and not applicable for what we would use it for?


14 days is referring to its ability to sterilize equipment. Not the amount of time you have to use the whole bottle. I am actually curious as to how the percentile composition of metricide and Excel compare. Could you please point out a site that states excel containing 2.6% glutaraldehyde. Thanks


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## StillLearning

DarioDario said:


> I am actually curious as to how the percentile composition of metricide and Excel compare. Could you please point out a site that states excel containing 2.6% glutaraldehyde. Thanks


Im not sure to be honest I would have to search around again. There was a site before that tested it though there is a link on this site somewhere. I know Tom tried to say they were different or something along them lines before but I guess you will say that when you work with Seachem on things... I dose it the same was as Excel and have been for over a month now though.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi DarioDario,

Excel contains 1.5% Glutaraldehyde. Here is where the information is available. Check out the 1/6/06 post.


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## medicTHREE

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi DarioDario,
> 
> Excel contains 1.5% Glutaraldehyde. Here is where the information is available. Check out the 1/6/06 post.


If this is the case, metracide 14 has 1.1 % more glutaraldehyde. The link you gave does not work for me, though.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi medicTHREE,

I repaired the link in my post, thank you for letting me know. Yes, you are correct, the metracide is almost 2X (1.733X actually) the strength of Excel.


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## StillLearning

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi medicTHREE,
> 
> I repaired the link in my post, thank you for letting me know. Yes, you are correct, the metracide is almost 2X (1.733X actually) the strength of Excel.


I have been dosing the same as excel for a bit now and never noticed anything I should be worried about.

MetriCide is a 2.6% buffered glutaraldehyde.
Excel contains 1.5% Glutaraldehyde

1.1% more it would seem to me..


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi StillLearning,

Yes, you are correct there 1.1% more Glut by volume MetriCide than Excel. MetriCide's Glut concentration is also 1.733333 times stronger than Excel. 

Since I buy Biological Grade 50% concentration Glut and mix my own CO2/algaecide additive I do the calculations regularly. Here are the calcs:
The concentration of Glut in MetriCide is 2.6% or 0.026. 
The concentration of Glut in Excel is 1.5% or 0.015.
Therefore the concentration of Glut in MetriCide is 0.026/0.015 (or 1.73... ) times greater than there is in Excel. Call it roughly 2X greater.

Glut is a reducing agent and, when overdosed, can decrease the oxygen content of the water and endanger the fish. Knowing the amount I am dosing can help prevent killing my fish.


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## StillLearning

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Glut is a reducing agent and, when overdosed, can decrease the oxygen content of the water and endanger the fish. Knowing the amount I am dosing can help prevent killing my fish.


Hmm I been using the same dosage as excel has labeled and never noticed anything wrong so far. So on Sundays when I do a 50% water change that would mean I'm doing a major overdose and still never saw a fish at the top gasping for air or any stress. I add about 30 - 35 mL's to a 55 gallon on Sundays I add slightly more cause I have 2 -2217's figured that holds a bit more water.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi StillLearning,

So far you have had no problems which is great! I have used Excel/Glut for a couple of years now and I have found that some species seem to be more susceptable to overdosing than others. 

The symptom I typically see is inactivity. How do you see inactivity? For example my angels aren't as active. they just kind of "hang" in the water when I overdose.


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## StillLearning

Yeah that is how I saw when I went to far the one day and had to back it down from there. I would notice they would be sluggish or at the top gasping for air. If I go anything over 35 mL's on my 55 gallon on my water change day I will see them slow down almost like there sleeping and you can see them clearly breathing heavy as well. I dose 5 mL's daily after until the following Sunday when I change the water again.

I have bleeding heart and flame tetra in my tank with 5 SAE's and about 15 oto cats. So far they have all seemed well with the dosage amounts I have been given. You see the SAE's always flying around and the tetra playing tag it seems. If I am overdosing then I wouldnt tell anyone to do it or follow what I'm doing but so far I have had great success with what I'm doing so its hard to change it.


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## jackgood

After poking around on the internet a bit I found another Glutaraldehyde product made by Johnson and Johnson called Cidex. 
http://www.aspjj.com/Products_&_Services/CIDEX/CIDEXPLUS/index.asp

Says it has a 3.4% alkaline glutaraldehyde solution. How does that compare with someo of these other products?


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## Newt

More appropriately:
The concentration of Glut in MetriCide is 2.6% or 0.026. 
The concentration of Glut in Excel is 1.5% or 0.015.

.026 -.015/.026 x 100= 42.3% more glut in metricide


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Newt,

You may want to recheck your math. If there was only 42% more glut in MctriCide, then 0.015 X 1.42 would equal 0.026 but it equals 0.213. However 0.015 X 1.7333 equals 0.025999 or 0.026.


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## Newt

Hi Roy,
You are correct
My math wasnt wrong but my formula was. It should be .026 - .015/.015 x 100 = 73%

Guess thats what happens when you're called for dinner for the second time.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Newt,

You get called twice!!!??? LOL!!


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## Newt

.................or how ever many times it takes me to show up.
Its more like nagging after the 2nd time.


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## fibertech

I have dose 7ml daily in my 55 gal for 8 months now and have seen no ill affects.


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## Frogmanx82

fibertech said:


> I have dose 7ml daily in my 55 gal for 8 months now and have seen no ill affects.


Dose of what?


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## fibertech

Sorry about that, Metricide


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## svenhipsta

jackgood said:


> Is there an alternative product out there that provides the same affect as Flourish Excel? It's pretty hard to come by where I live. None of the big box stores stock it and the little local fish stores will only keep one or two small bottles in stock at a time. I was just wondering if there's an alternative that the big box stores would keep on hand. Anyone know?


some alternatives.

add more algae eaters (snails, shrimp, otos, plecos, SAEs). 
reduce the amount you're feeding your animals. less each time but more times each day?
change over to more natural food vs. flakes or pellets.
reduce the amount of light.
reduce the photoperiod.
add more plants like water lettuce, duckweed, naja grass, hornwort to outcompete the algae for the nutrients.
(this assumes you're not in a malawi tank)


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## Frogmanx82

svenhipsta said:


> some alternatives.
> 
> add more algae eaters (snails, shrimp, otos, plecos, SAEs).
> reduce the amount you're feeding your animals. less each time but more times each day?
> change over to more natural food vs. flakes or pellets.
> reduce the amount of light.
> reduce the photoperiod.
> add more plants like water lettuce, duckweed, naja grass, hornwort to outcompete the algae for the nutrients.
> (this assumes you're not in a malawi tank)


None of those are the same as Excel. I think you missed the point.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Frogmanx82,

I think that the point that svenhipsta is trying to make is rather than try to "treat the algae" chemically it is better to try to deal cause or or use more "natural" methods of control.

I utilize most of the methods he suggests and still dose with Excel (Glutaraldehyde) for the extra carbon and algacide properties.


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## Frogmanx82

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Frogmanx82,
> 
> I think that the point that svenhipsta is trying to make is rather than try to "treat the algae" chemically it is better to try to deal cause or or use more "natural" methods of control.
> 
> I utilize most of the methods he suggests and still dose with Excel (Glutaraldehyde) for the extra carbon and algacide properties.


I got the point, it just had nothing to do with this thread.


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## misant777

This remaining 12oz or so of glutaraldehyde should, IIRC, come out to the equivalent of something like 800oz, or about 23 - 24 liters, of flourish excel. This is a couple dollars worth of glutaraldehyde. 

In a piercing or tattoo shop, you'd use 1 ounce per gallon of water as a high level disinfectant, IIRC.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi misant777,

I've never seen glutaraldehyde that color; just clear (even the 50% concentration stuff.


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## misant777

Yeah, probably polymerization, as tends to happen with concentrated aldehydes over long periods of improper storage or buffering. That has been stored in that bottle for approximately 5 years. I just found it out in the garage, mixed among my flavoring syrups. I guess one of the renters went snooping through my stuff again. 

Here's another image of the same effect. 









A mild reflux in a weak aqueous base should clear it up I think, but it really doesn't matter.

EDIT: Just mixed up a 2% solution and hit it with a strong base. It lightened appropriately, however a saponin like froth was obtained upon mixing. This has been molested with a detergent or something in my absence over the years. Probably one of our piercers. :-(

Hmm, I wonder if cinnamaldehyde would go over well with the fish?


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