# Suggestions: Betta with Fin And Tail Rot.



## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Hello, everyone, I am just feeling terribly helpless as I usually don't get fish that get sick the way my male betta did. 

On November 7 2007, I decided to give my betta a more spacious home and set up a 5 gallon natural planted hex tank for him. Everything appeared to be going well, then about 10 days ago, I noticed that his tail and fins looked really ragged and eaten away. His color also appear faded. Of course this took me totally by surprise as I very rarely in the 9 years that I have kept fish have had any fish get this ill. From my research, I concluded that the poor guy was suffering from fin and tail rot which would progressively worsen if not treated. I first treated him with erythromycin and even after full 5 day treatment his condition did not appear to improve. He spent most of his time in hiding on the bottom of the tank and did not eat for 5 days, and did not even eat after completion of treatment. After further research :ranger: , 

I decided to follow up with Mardel (maracyn-Two) treatment(containing minocycline). Many people who had bettas with tail and fin rot found that maracyn-two gave them the best results. I knew that there would be a possible negative impact on the biological filter as maracyn-two targets gram postive bacteria, but what else was I to do. I don't have a cycled hospital tank, and did not want to treat him in an uncycled tank as I figured that a totally uncycled tank would stress him out even more. Well 5 days after treatment, he was still in hiding and appeared still and motionless on the bottom. There were a few times, I thought he was dead and when I tapped on the tank, he would flee like a bat from hell and go into hiding. He never surfaced. Yesterday, I changed 50% of the water and added a little bit of aquarium salt.

This evening, I shook the package containing his food vigorously near the surface to get his attention and to my surprise he noticed and surfaced in anticipation for food, so I fed him and he ate. He is for the first time swimming and spent more time on the surface. What a relief. He really looks like he has been to hell and back. His tail and fins look pretty eaten away and he looks like something a big fish ate and spit out. I am really worried. I plan to do another 50% water change in a couple of days as I heard that this was the best way to assure good water quality and speed up his recovery.

Any suggestions from those that have successfully treated bettas would fin and tail rot in natural planted tanks would be most appreciated. I am really attached to this little guy and would hate to lose him  :sad: :tear: :help:  :crybaby:


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Melafix worked well for me when i was breeding halfmoon & crowntail bettas and had a fungal or bacterial problem.Hope you save him. Best wishes


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

I should have added i have used melafix a few times in my 135 angel tank with no harm to the plants etc.The black angels developed a white film on their bodies when i first got them shipped in and the Melafix cleared it up in a few days.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

guppyramkrib said:


> Melafix worked well for me when i was breeding halfmoon & crowntail bettas and had a fungal or bacterial problem.Hope you save him. Best wishes


Many thanks for the suggestion. I read that Melafix works for a lot of people too. I was at the pet store and was really tempted to pick some up and dose the tank, but I was worried that I may end up creating more problems by mixing together too many medications so I decided not to do so.

Has anyone dosed Melafix and Maracyn in the same tank without problems? 
Thanks.


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## imeridian (Jan 17, 2007)

I'll add another suggestion of the Melafix. It seems to really work well on cases of fin damage/rot. I usually use it combined with Pimafix though, to help cover more bases. 

I've never combined those "herbal" treatments with antibiotics like Maracyn, though I have use it with Nitrofurazone and Malachite Green without apparent negative effect on black Mollies. I've only used Melafix on my bettas though, not in combination.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

indiboi said:


> I'll add another suggestion of the Melafix. It seems to really work well on cases of fin damage/rot. I usually use it combined with Pimafix though, to help cover more bases.
> 
> I've never combined those "herbal" treatments with antibiotics like Maracyn, though I have use it with Nitrofurazone and Malachite Green without apparent negative effect on black Mollies. I've only used Melafix on my bettas though, not in combination.


Okay thanks for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it. what I will do is cross my fingers and hope that he pulls through. After a few water changes, I will add carbon to the filter to clear the medications, then dose with Melafix as a precautionary measure. I already have some Pimafix and I may dose them together.

I am really kicking myself for placing my betta in harm's way by putting him in this experimental tank. I should have gone with my original plan and used feeder ghost shrimp or feeder guppies for this experiment. And the next time I set up a natural planted tank or any other type of tank for that matter, I am not going to do so without a UV sterilizer or diatom filter. I believe that UV sterilzer or diatom filter could have prevented this problem by killing/filtering the fungal spores responsible.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

How is the potassium level in the tank? I have seen that plants can pull down the potassium to the point where the fish are affected, and can get fin rot or other skin conditions. If the potassium isn't increased, there can be major die-offs.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

HeyPK said:


> How is the potassium level in the tank? I have seen that plants can pull down the potassium to the point where the fish are affected, and can get fin rot or other skin conditions. If the potassium isn't increased, there can be major die-offs.


That is interesting. I don't know but I was "cheating" big time and was dosing PPS-Pro but 1/2 the recommended dosage given that it was a low light non-c02 tank, so I would think that the potassium levels would be within acceptable parameters. I have a potassium test kit, but stopped using it as it never appeared to give me very accurate tested potassium readings.

Before anyone jumps in and reminds me that Natural Planted tanks are not supposed to be dosed with any ferts, I know and am quite aware. PPS-Pro was just something that I wanted to try on this tank and I doubt it was responsible for the fin and tail rot. But just to be safe, I have stopped dosing PPS-Pro until I get a handle on this problem.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

One half PPS should provide plenty of potassium. We can rule out lack of K as a cause.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Update: My Betta surfaced and ate last night, but as of this morning he has again gone into hiding, so I figure he must really be struggling healthwise. I did a 50% water change this morning, will wait a day or so to see if he surfaces again. If not, I will commence a second treatment with Maracyn 2 as this seemed to help.

With respect to using Melafix and Bettafix, there is far more controversy around the safety of this stuff for Bettas that I am not quite prepared to go that route. 
Two camps involved:

One camp claims avoid Melafix and Bettafix at all costs and those folks swear that they lost their sick bettas to Melafix/Bettafix.
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/b...ners-read-melafix-alert-read-read-danger.html
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?n...opic&t=17002&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

One camp claims is perfectly safe and those users say they have not suffered Betta deaths as a result of using Melafix/Bettafix.
http://www.fishforums.net/content-page/57172/pagination/page/0/
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art16478.asp

I have always stated and state again for the record that cause and effect relationships are really difficult to prove. It is likely that in those that experienced fish deaths any other number of things could have been responsible, other than the Bettafix/Melafix for the Betta deaths, and perhaps even if antibiotics would have been used the Bettas would have still died the same way.

At the same time, you really have to wonder what API was thinking when they decided to make a highly diluted version of the chemical in Melafix and sell it specifically for Bettas in the form of Bettafix. Why would you do this unless there was some truth to the fact that Melafix may not indeed be safe for Bettas. The creation of Bettafix almost looks like a response to the fact that Melafix may not be all that safe for Bettas.

I have also gone on record and stated that when something is this controversial, you are best to test things and seek the answer yourself. In my situation, I am not about to use my Betta as a guinea pig to find out whether he can survive exposure to Melafix or Bettafix. I am already struggling with the guilt of making him part of a natural planted tank experiment and not going with my original idea of using feeder guppy fish and feeder ghost shrimp as guinea pigs for the tank. With the feeder guppies and ghost shrimp, I would not have felt as bad as they are sold with a death sentence anyways.

Thanks but no thanks  I think I will stick with the tried and true antibiotics. They may also not be 100% safe and without problems but they are not nearly as controversial as Melafix and Bettafix.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Are you keeping him at 80 degrees F?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

HeyPK said:


> Are you keeping him at 80 degrees F?


The thermometer reads a constant 27 degrees celcius and has been hovering at that temperature which I believe is equivalent to 80 degrees farenheit. I added another sprinkle of aquarium salt to the tank after the water change. I was hoping that he would surface after this but he has not. Funny thing is that I was hopeful that he was on his way to a full recovery because just this morning he was at the tank's surface and appeared to be blowing bubbles to form a bubble nest. I went to feed him about a hour later of seeing this and he had gone into hiding at bottom of the tank. He is behaving as though he wants to be left alone and is intent on hiding.

I know that the plants may take a beating because of the salt, but most(egera densa, hygrophilia polysperma, anubias, java moss) are tolerant of brackish water so they may be fine. Besides, right now I could careless about the plants. The Betta's health takes precedence.

Thanks.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Hmmm... you know, I think the best thing to do in this case is to put your betta in a hospital tank and treat him in there. I know some people have treated their fish in NPT's but I'd rather not take that chance if I were you. If he's in a hospital tank, you can do 100% water changes on it to keep it very clean while medicating him. Just make sure you have a heater and an airstone in there for him so his gills won't become stressed from the lack of oxygen that the meds are known for removing from the water.

If you want to use the tea tree oils(melafix), I strongly suggest you use the BettaFix and not the Melafix. Melafix is way too strong for bettas and the watered down BettaFix would be much better to use although this only tends to work when bettas have a very mild case of finrot.

I'm sorry if this wasn't of much help.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Red_Rose said:


> Hmmm... you know, I think the best thing to do in this case is to put your betta in a hospital tank and treat him in there. I know some people have treated their fish in NPT's but I'd rather not take that chance if I were you. If he's in a hospital tank, you can do 100% water changes on it to keep it very clean while medicating him. Just make sure you have a heater and an airstone in there for him so his gills won't become stressed from the lack of oxygen that the meds are known for removing from the water.
> 
> If you want to use the tea tree oils(melafix), I strongly suggest you use the BettaFix and not the Melafix. Melafix is way too strong for bettas and the watered down BettaFix would be much better to use although this only tends to work when bettas have a very mild case of finrot.
> 
> I'm sorry if this wasn't of much help.


No that helps, thanks. I was seriously and am seriously considering it. One of the problems is the catch 22 situation. The only tank that I can set up is a 2.5 gallon unheated, uncycled tank. My fear is that stress of the ammonia spike and temperature change from transferring him from the 5 gallon with a steady therapeutic temperature of 27 degrees celcius, combined with the fact that there are plants that are likely absorbing the excess ammonia given the antibiotic likely wreaked havoc in the 5 gallon. The 2.5 gallon would likely cycle at the same time that he is highly stressed, there would be an ammonia spike, and no plants to absorb the ammonia(although I could always stuff the tank with a ton of cardamine floating stems). I could always do frequent water changes but if I remedicate the tank it is suggested not to do water changes for 5 days to give the antibiotic a chance to build in the water and work.

Update: He had his stuffed right down in some anubias plants with his tail sticking out. Kind of like an Ostrich with his head buried in the sand. I had enough, so I scared the S*it out of him and he quickly surfaced. I think that he got the message that I wanted him to eat and was not going to leave him alone until he did. So he is stayed on the surface and I fed him and he ate. Now he is there watching me, almost thinking is this guy done feeding me or is he going to bother me again if I go down?

I really think he is so weakened that he just wants to rest. Maybe, I just need to leave him alone and let him rest and regain his strength.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> No that helps, thanks. I was seriously and am seriously considering it. One of the problems is the catch 22 situation. The only tank that I can set up is a 2.5 gallon unheated, uncycled tank. My fear is that stress of the ammonia spike and temperature change from transferring him from the 5 gallon with a steady therapeutic temperature of 27 degrees celcius, combined with the fact that there are plants that are likely absorbing the excess ammonia given the antibiotic likely wreaked havoc in the 5 gallon. The 2.5 gallon would likely cycle at the same time that he is highly stressed, there would be an ammonia spike, and no plants to absorb the ammonia(although I could always stuff the tank with a ton of cardamine floating stems). I could always do frequent water changes but if I remedicate the tank it is suggested not to do water changes for 5 days to give the antibiotic a chance to build in the water and work.
> 
> Update: He had his stuffed right down in some anubias plants with his tail sticking out. Kind of like an Ostrich with his head buried in the sand. I had enough, so I scared the S*it out of him and he quickly surfaced. I think that he got the message that I wanted him to eat and was not going to leave him alone until he did. So he is stayed on the surface and I fed him and he ate. Now he is there watching me, almost thinking is this guy done feeding me or is he going to bother me again if I go down?
> 
> I really think he is so weakened that he just wants to rest. Maybe, I just need to leave him alone and let him rest and regain his strength.


Most people don't cycle hospital tanks because with some meds like Jungle Fungus Clear, you usually have to do a second dose on the fourth day so they just make sure all wastes and uneated food are removed to prevent ammonia from building up but the thing I'd be worried about is the fact that it won't be heated. You could easily acclimate him to the new water for an hour so he would be use to the different temperature but it's normally best to keep the water anywhere's from 78-80F(25-27C) since they like warm water. Also, when I had to put my boy back into his 2.5g tank back in July, I had put a sprig of Hornwort in there for him. It gave him a place to hide and the plant didn't seem to be affected by the medicine and it helped to prevent ammonia from building up in the water.

The way you described your betta head first into the plants sounds so much like my betta when he had internal parasites. All he wanted to do was rest unless he was getting food. He never turned down food. I'm sorry to ask this but does he only have fin/tail rot or could he have something else? I know that bettas can become lethargic from fin rot but normally they just show blackened/red tips on the ends of their fins that keep getting shorter.

EDIT: I forgot to add this. I think it would be best to let him rest even though I know it's difficult to do that when you are worried about him. You just want to see him well again and not sleeping all of the time.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Red_Rose said:


> ...The way you described your betta head first into the plants sounds so much like my betta when he had internal parasites. All he wanted to do was rest unless he was getting food. He never turned down food. I'm sorry to ask this but does he only have fin/tail rot or could he have something else? I know that bettas can become lethargic from fin rot but normally they just show blackened/red tips on the ends of their fins that keep getting shorter.
> 
> EDIT: I forgot to add this. I think it would be best to let him rest even though I know it's difficult to do that when you are worried about him. You just want to see him well again and not sleeping all of the time.


Now you really have me worried . A double whammy(fin and tail rot and parasites), I certainly hope not. Hopefully, the higher temperature and salt treatment will take care of the parasites if he has any. I am hoping that his behaviour is more a reflection of his weakened state from the antibiotic treatment and the fact that he did not eat for 10 days. He has not gone back down, so I think that this is a good sign and he is still at the surface, much more active than he has ever been. He is also accepting food so there is still hope.

Yeah, you are right, I will leave him alone. By the way, how did you treat your Betta for parasites, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Now you really have me worried . A double whammy(fin and tail rot and parasites), I certainly hope not. Hopefully, the higher temperature and salt treatment will take care of the parasites if he has any. I am hoping that his behaviour is more a reflection of his weakened state from the antibiotic treatment and the fact that he did not eat for 10 days. He has not gone back down, so I think that this is a good sign and he is still at the surface, much more active than he has ever been. He is also accepting food so there is still hope.
> 
> Yeah, you are right, I will leave him alone. By the way, how did you treat your Betta for parasites, if you don't mind me asking?


I really don't think your betta has internal parasites but I'll tell you of the things to look for just in case.

The #1 indicator of internal parasites is white poo. Sometimes it's stringy too but if it's white, then they have internal parasites. They will also flash and scrape themselves against tank walls and decorations just as if they had external parasites and depending on where the parasites are in the body, they can have SBD. They can also become rather thin too.

The aquarium salt wouldn't do anything for internal parasites but you are right that warmer water will kill/prevent parasites. You'd have to medicate for that but I really don't think your betta has that. Antibiotics can stress fish so I think that's why he's lying around all of the time. A lot of bettas won't eat when they are sick so since yours still wants food then that is definitely a good sign. 

As for treating my boy, yes I did treat him. I don't think internal parasites are something that will just go away. I fed Jungle Pepso Food to him. You just feed it to him for three days(you can give it to them for an extra day if you want) and it'll clear it right up. I fed it to him twice a day. Jake had a really bad case of SBD from the parasites he had and I started to noticed small improvements a few hours after the first feeding! I was told that a lot of bettas don't like the medicated food but Jake certainly loved it. I think the Jungle Anti-parasitic and anti-bacterial foods are the ones that bettas don't like the taste of.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for that very useful information Rose .

This morning I saw him on the surface. He does look quite thin and weak, not to mention that he literally has no tail left and his fins look pretty ragged. He did accept some food pellets and I fed him 2 pellets in the morning, followed by another 2 pellets 2 hours later, this evening I am going to feed him the final 2 pellets. Although there may not be any science to this and comparing humans to fish usually does not work, I am going on the premise that feeding him few pellets every several times a day will make it easier for him to digest and get the most from the food in his weakened state, then feeding him several pellets all at once. I know when I am sick, I tend to do better with smaller servings of food over several hours than big portions of food all at once. 

I feel I have done all I can. I am not going to dose Maracyn 2 a second time because in his already weakened state I feel that it will only make him weaker and may not make a difference. I will continue with the water changes, salt, and constant 27-28 degree celcius temperature. I don't feel that I can do much else but hope for the best with what I have done. I think for any furture Natural Planted Tanks that I set up, I am just going to stick with feeder guppies and feeder ghost shrimp.


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## SlyDer (Jul 11, 2007)

In my experience breeding bettas there pretty hardy fish. In some cases there just too mean to die. Never have i seen a more aggressive fish gram to gram. 
Unless old age is the culprit, with good maintenance and a good diet combined with the treatment you have provided he should pull through. 
Between the damage done in my sorority tank and the damage from breeding (in a npt btw) i have quite a few jars and brandy sniffers sitting around with medicated fish. a few cases have been so bad there has been bones and pink flesh where scales and fins should be.
I know theres alot of controversy on pimafix and melafix but i dose it in all my "betta barracks" using about a 1/8 teaspoon dose and a teaspoon of aquarium salt with pretty good success. Ofcourse they get daily water changes and thats probaly the #1 factor in there recovery.

You seem like you take very good care of your aquariums, if theres a chance for your betta to recover i would think it will. The shrimp i got from you last summer were very healthy and nice looking no doubt well cared for.

just my windy two cents
-SlyDer


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

There are two more things you could try but a lot of people don't like to do this.

The first thing you could do is actually take your betta out of the water and dab hydrogen peroxide on the infected fins but you have to be careful with that because if the peroxide gets onto their gills, it can kill them and the absolute last resort for fin rot is to actually surgically remove the infected tissue.

These two procedures are very stressful to the betta, that's why most people hope that they don't have to go to that extreme. You can do a search on them to get more information on them but I don't think you'll want to do this.

Btw, have you ever added Black Water Extract to your betta's tank? Tetra and Kent make this and many people(myself included) use this in their betta's tanks. It changes the water to a yellowish color. It creates a blackwater environment that bettas come from. It has vitamins in it and it tends to relax them. With the Tetra brand, you have to add 10ml for every ten gallons but some people add more then that. Adding more won't hurt anything and you can add this while medicating them. It'll just make the water a bit darker but a lot of people don't like the looks of tannins in the water.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Slyder: Many thanks for sharing your experiences and the kind words of support and encouragement.

Red_Rose: I read about the hydrogen peroxide treatment and opted not to try it as the betta was too weak and stressed as it was and I just did not want to put him through anymore. The Black Water extract sounds like an interesting idea but I am using Seachem Purigen in my filter and it may filter out the valuable tannins. I really don't want to remove the Seachem Purigen given its value in keeping my water crystal clear and removing excess organic waste.

Update: The Betta seems to be regaining its strength and appears much more active. I hope that is because he is on the mend and not because of any pain he may be feeling from the fin and tail rot.

Interesting: I was talking to my favourite local fish store staff member. She is one of the most knowledgeable people that I have ever met and much of what she shares with me is based on her own personal experience of keeping fish for many years and from what customers tell her. I always learn something new whenever I speak to her. When I told her about what happened to my Betta. She pointed to a box of $2.99 aquarium salt and said remove the Betta from the tank and place him in a fish bowl with two litres water, and 1 teaspoon of salt, keep the temperature at 28-30 degrees celcius, and she said he would mend in no time. When I told her that I had used Erythromycin and Maracyn II, she shook her head in disbelief and told me that 99% of the time(based on her own experience and experience with customers) that salt would heal even the worst cases of fin and tail rot, and antibiotics were only a last resort measure and often un-necessary. She told me that if the salt did not work, Bettafix would most likely work. She told me to stay away from Melafix even at 1/2 a dose as she said that would be too potent for the Betta. She also strongly advised feeding him only every second day until he was totally healed as she said that feeding him every day when he had not eaten for so long would wreak havoc with his digestive system and could make him sicker.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Red_Rose: I read about the hydrogen peroxide treatment and opted not to try it as the betta was too weak and stressed as it was and I just did not want to put him through anymore. The Black Water extract sounds like an interesting idea but I am using Seachem Purigen in my filter and it may filter out the valuable tannins. I really don't want to remove the Seachem Purigen given its value in keeping my water crystal clear and removing excess organic waste.
> 
> Update: The Betta seems to be regaining its strength and appears much more active. I hope that is because he is on the mend and not because of any pain he may be feeling from the fin and tail rot.
> 
> Interesting: I was talking to my favourite local fish store staff member. She is one of the most knowledgeable people that I have ever met and much of what she shares with me is based on her own personal experience of keeping fish for many years and from what customers tell her. I always learn something new whenever I speak to her. When I told her about what happened to my Betta. She pointed to a box of $2.99 aquarium salt and said remove the Betta from the tank and place him in a fish bowl with two litres water, and 1 teaspoon of salt, keep the temperature at 28-30 degrees celcius, and she said he would mend in no time. When I told her that I had used Erythromycin and Maracyn II, she shook her head in disbelief and told me that 99% of the time(based on her own experience and experience with customers) that salt would heal even the worst cases of fin and tail rot, and antibiotics were only a last resort measure and often un-necessary. She told me that if the salt did not work, Bettafix would most likely work. She told me to stay away from Melafix even at 1/2 a dose as she said that would be too potent for the Betta. She also strongly advised feeding him only every second day until he was totally healed as she said that feeding him every day when he had not eaten for so long would wreak havoc with his digestive system and could make him sicker.


I'm glad he's more active! I don't blame you for not wanting to try the hydrogen peroxide treatment. The last thing he needs is to be more stressed.

You know, there are quite a few people on a betta forum that I post in that will use aquarium salt first before trying stronger meds. I've always been afraid to use aquarium salt because if it's not completely dissolved, it can burn their gills.


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## kakkoii (Jan 18, 2008)

melafix in conjunction with pimafix works awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

So can you give us an update on your betta? Has he gotten better since your last post?


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