# Deficency in stargrass



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

I kinda suck at remembering to dose EI ferts. Either way stargrass is probably my worst plant. I think its suffering some major deficency. Most of my plants only start showing signs after a week of no ferts at all. Stargrass looks like crap if I don't fertilize religiously. When I do dose, I use KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B. Nitrate in tap is 20ppm and higher in tank. I've been double dosing K2SO4 and CSM+B, its helped a lot especially with the other plants. The stargrass still looks like crap though. This stuff use to cover most of the tank. Then one week it decided it all wanted to die. So thats what it did. The tips look nice, anything else melts away.

pH- 7.0-7.4
temp-80ish
KH-7-8*

All my tap water goes through a softener first.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi mikaila31,

It looks like either an iron or nitrogen deficiency to me. Are you dosing any nitrogen like potassium nitrate (KNO3)?


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

No I dont dose KNO3 . I get 20ppm nitrate out of the tap, and the tank averages about 40ppm. Do you think I should still dose the KNO3?


----------



## Shad0w (Nov 13, 2006)

assuming your test kit is accurate, 40ppm is more than enough


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm not sure about the API test kits correctness. But we have our well tested every year and I definitely get 20ppm from the tap. The tank is heavily stocked, nitrate is defiantly above 30ppm. 40ppm is my rough guess, because the color card looks the same to me above 20ppm.

I can certainly dose KNO3 for a few weeks and see if it helps. I have it on hand, just figured it wasn't really necessary to add more nitrates.


----------



## oheresy (Feb 10, 2009)

From what I've read in the past, plants don't seem to do well in water that's been through a water softener. But I'm no expert.


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

I've read that too, but I kinda took it as a "maybe". There could easily be some plants that don't like softened water. I haven't had any issues with growing the dozen species of plants I keep. A lot show some minor deficencies. K, iron, or Mg I think. I'm not sure if this is because of the well water. It probably wouldn't be an issue if I really wanted to fix it. I plan to get some Iron and Magnesium ferts next time I order ferts to see if they help at all. Iron according to the drinking water lab test is pretty much zero. The double dosing K2SO4 and trace has certainly helped, hasn't completely fixed it though. I can bypass the softener if I wanted to, but its a real pain.

This is when the stargrass was happy. I was using softened water at this time. Something made it really unhappy, because it all died within a week. I've kept a few stem around in case it ever wants to come back, but they barely survive in the tank now. Every other plant that was in the tank at this time, still is and is just as happy as it always is. 









I guess I will start dosing KNO3 and see if it makes any noticeable changes or not. Then maybe buy dry ferts early and get some iron and Mg too see if they help at all.


----------



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I bet it's just using up all the nitrogen. So when you do water changes there is plenty. Then the plants grow and use it all and it's depleted. The hygro polysperma and the stargrass are both fast growers and could use a lot quickly.


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

The stargrass hasen't grown in a long time though. That pic was taken in March. Somewhere in late summer it decided to all die and barely grows even after water changes. H. polysperma has been growing like crazy the whole time . We will see if the KNO3 helps, but this tank houses my two adult caecilians(2-2ft eels) allong with a couple dozen fish. I'll be amazed if the tap and the heavy stocking are not enough nitrogen for them.

I have no idea if it is linked to any of this. But I'm trying to solve a issue with my snails in this tank on other forum. They are showing some sort of deficiency. Of course first suggested is calcium, but with my KH being 6-8degrees I don't think its calcium. I plan to see if a store can test it for me though. Any chance what ever is causing this is(deficiency?) is also what the stargrass is lacking? Maybe a lack of iron ?


----------



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Don't you have clown loaches? The make holes in snails and suck them out. If you still have them that's probably the problem if you don't think it's calsium.


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

Nope no loaches of any kind. Nothing in the tank that should harm snails, unless BN plecos can do that. I've never had any loaches. The 55gal in question only houses the caecilians and a couple kinds of small tetra and the BN plecos.

Also I remembered I have some Ferrous Gluconate tablets. I was suppose to be taking them for blood or something. Anyway a google search show this is the main ingredient in the fert Flourish Iron. Anyone know how safe it is to use the dissolved tablets?


----------



## Nymsley (Mar 24, 2009)

mikaila31 said:


> Of course first suggested is calcium, but with my KH being 6-8degrees I don't think its calcium.


kH is a measure of carbonate in the water, not the calcium so your first guess could still be right.

I have no clue about the stargrass though.

Do you know what else is in the tablets? If the other ingredients are inert/safe then it should be okay to use them. You should be able to use them like a root tab and push them into the substrate.


----------



## playthecello (May 14, 2009)

Just a thought, but when was the last time you changed your light bulbs? When my spiral CF bulbs got pretty old a few months ago, my stargrass was the first to go. It turned blue, then got transparent, then melted, but it still managed to limp along. I upgraded to a fresh 65w PC, and the stargrass came back. (Then it got smothered by BGA, then it got shaded by a huge water sprite... it's lived a hard life) Each time it wasn't getting sufficient or adequate light, it would melt. Maybe you don't have a fert problem after - maybe it's a light problem.


----------



## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

Running water througha softener rips out all the Ca++ and Mg++ and replaces them with twice the amount of Na+. You have a profound calcium and magnesium definiciency, and the ungodly amount of Na+ ions in your water are inhibiting K uptake. Using a softener is a three-pronged approach to making it VERY difficult to be successful.


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

I guess I will start with the Mg and Ca then.....? I'm aware how the softener works, still I don't think it makes it very difficult to run a successful tank. My other planted tanks don't have this issue. Its most likely because this tank has the highest demand out of all of them. The issue with the softener is if I want to bypass it the only place I can easily get the water also bypasses the water heater. I can only guess at the temp of it, but the natural spring down the road pumps out 48 degree water in the middle of summer. 

I'll pick up some weekend fish feeders and smash them to smithereens. As far as I'm aware they are mainly calcium. Hopefully they will do the trick until I can afford to order new ferts. Unless anyone else knows some house hold sources of soluble calcium? Only thing I can think of is giving the tank a tums/antiacid tablet. Not sure the fish would like them though.... 

The bulbs are 16 months old I think. They could probably use replacing, but I'm broke ATM. College student with minimum wage job. I've got over 80 hours scheduled the next two weeks and there is Christmas. We will see what my bank account looks like after that and how much I really want to replace them. I'm running older bulbs on other tanks, that should be replaced first....


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

After some online research I think I'm going to use plaster of paris and epsom salts(MgSO4 + 7H2O) for calcium and magnisium dosing. I can get these locally, I bought a 4lb thing of epsom salts years ago so I already have that. Just got to hunt some more to figure out the dosing of each one....... 

Will make sure I get my tap water tested for calcium next time I go up to one of the nicer fish stores. I figure a saltwater calcium test will still work on freshwater? The store will probably test it either way if I ask.


----------



## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

The problem is also the amount of sodium in your water, inhibiting uptake of potassium. I put 50 degree water into my tank all the time with no ill effects. Skip the softener... Also, plaster of paris might be a problem since it can actually set up in the water. Limestone is a source of calcium, but I would go after a giant water change with that spring water...


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

Using the spring would be nice.I'm in Wisconsin though. Its 48 in the summer. Right now it might still be bubbling , but its buried under a foot of snow. Will be two feet by Saturday. I really don't have the time or means to haul 25 gallons of freezing spring water to my house every week. Just to do a water change on this one tank. I also don't feel safe adding such cold water to my tank. The spring I'm pretty sure runs out of the same aquifer as our well, since nitrates/pH are the same and that can vary greatly around here. I really would like to stick with the softened water. The tank/ stargrass was growing great with the softened water before. The other plants still grow great and I toss at least a pound a week from this tank. I feel it is possible to have the stargrass grow happily again with the softened water. If I can't figure it out I'll just give up on the stargrass. H. polysperma, crypt wenditti, vals, lotus, swords, and a few other plants still grow like crazy for me.

Using limestone is a nice idea. I'm pretty sure I know where some is locally. but I only know the general area....... which will soon have 2 feet of snow on it . 

Either way in a year or two I will be out of the house. This particular tank I hope to move to the bio department of my college, I'll see if I can get away with declaring it a honors project. I'll be off my softened well water and onto city water for the first time. Won't have to worry about that extra salt, lets just hope I remember to dechloronate.


----------



## mikaila31 (Feb 24, 2006)

Would using a mix have any improvement? 

Like say I tank some freezing unheated/unsoftened well water and mix it with really hot tap water until its warm enough to add to the tank. Would that help any?


----------



## El Exorcisto (Aug 10, 2006)

You could just fill up enough five 5 gallon buckets and let them set overnight to reach room temp... The softener is going to be a continual headache for you until it is taken out of the loop.


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

double post


----------



## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

If you have access to the water softener or whomever runs it, you could use KCl (often sold as "Sodium Free Water Softener") instead of NaCl. Or mix some proportion of each as Na isn't all bad.

Regardless, I do think your Stargrass looks more like some toxicity (not necessarily Na -- I don't know) than deficiency, and if you've not reset the tank, would suggest a massive water change, think about whether any of your ferts could be contaminated or mislabeled and if so replace, do another massive water change, do another, then continue dosing with your targets and adjustments above.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Since nobody's said it, I will. How's the current around that star grass? I've found the stuff looks like that every time I put it in a higher flow area, regardless of nutrients and CO2. Stick it in a calm, simple low tech tank with low light and plenty of ferts and see what happens.


----------



## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

Philosophos said:


> Since nobody's said it, I will. How's the current around that star grass? I've found the stuff looks like that every time I put it in a higher flow area, regardless of nutrients and CO2. Stick it in a calm, simple low tech tank with low light and plenty of ferts and see what happens.


It doesn't like current? That's good to know. I had Stargrass awhile back that would turn Blue and then clear. All my other plants were doing well so, I gave up on the Stargrass. Even though I have 156 watts of T5HO light on 46 gallons, if I lowered the current would it do well in the shade? Assuming my IE dosing is sufficient of course.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

156w of T5HO? I'd say you could start with dropping out the light levels some. 1/3-1/2 of that should take care of your needs with good CO2 distribution.

Dropping the current in the whole tank is one option. Personally I'd try to scape and set up flow for that plant so that current isn't blowing heavily on it. No need to cheat the rest of the tank out of good flow.

Good lighting spread is also a part of things; lower leaves tend to melt based on poor light distribution, and poor CO2 availability IME.

Star grass in high tech is a bit of a challenge; you need to think the entire process out, and tinker some.


----------



## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

Philosophos said:


> 156w of T5HO? I'd say you could start with dropping out the light levels some. 1/3-1/2 of that should take care of your needs with good CO2 distribution.
> 
> Dropping the current in the whole tank is one option. Personally I'd try to scape and set up flow for that plant so that current isn't blowing heavily on it. No need to cheat the rest of the tank out of good flow.
> 
> ...


I grow Glosso as a forground so, I kind of like the high light. I have been playing with reducing to two tubes with a 4 tube noon burst. I think I will try the Star Grass in a shady less flow area. Thanks for advice.


----------



## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm not good at deficiencies, but I have stargrass, and it is exceptionally happy. I'm pruning once a week. I will tell you what I have, and maybe that will help.

75 gallon, 2 canister filters dispersed through one spraybar (good flow all over, but not fast)
Pressurized CO2 - 3 bps into one of the canisters for a reactor. 
Flourite/Laterite substrate.
Tap water, no treatment, from the city for water changes.
Dosing with EI recipe - 1/4 tsp daily (about half of what the EI schedule calls for)
1 part CSM+B
1 part Kh2PO4
1 part K2SO4
3 parts KNO3

Also, 1 capful of Flourish Iron DAILY.

Hope that helps you.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

bosmahe1 said:


> I grow Glosso as a forground so, I kind of like the high light. I have been playing with reducing to two tubes with a 4 tube noon burst. I think I will try the Star Grass in a shady less flow area. Thanks for advice.


Glosso doesn't require high light... even HC doesn't need it:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4902-ADA-lighting-at-Aqua-Forest-and-nice-low-PAr-values-who-knew

The myths surrounding high light as a necessity really mess people up in this hobby. Most of these plants don't need staggeringly high light if you just keep the CO2 well distributed.

Some confuse high light for good spread as well; low to moderate light from more angles is more valuable than a single point of blazing light. Unfortunately most fixtures like to pack things in for the sake of cost and marketing, which is why I'm starting to lean towards hoods and retrofitting.

If there's one thing I've come to learn in this hobby, it's that flow, CO2 and light are valuable in even saturation more so than in high saturation at a few select points. Easier said than done, but at least it gives a target to aim for.


----------

