# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Possible danger of DIY yeast CO2



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Hi, Mr. Miller
It's K.E. from Malaysia. Still figuring how to use "posting" in forum, hopefully this would not reach others accidentally ! Should anyone find me violating any of the posting ethic, my apologies .... first timer & no one ever taught me how to 

Saw your reply to the post "Please help : DIY Yeast CO2" and suddenly a big Q (question) just snapped me - would injecting CO2 produced via fermentation introduces unwanted / deadly substance to the tank - eg, alcohol??? Has anyone addressed this issue before?

As explained in my previous emails to you, I'm injecting CO2 via a 5 litre bottle, and 3 2-litre bottles of yeast and sugar mixture into my 150 gallon tank. There is often this smell of fermentation (smell of alcohol), especially after I shake the bottles. I'm sure there isn't any leakage, as I am getting a strong 5 ~ 7 bubbles per second into the reactor in the tank.

My concerns are that, my cories, mollies, otos (and before hand, my tetras, which are now in another tank) all seems to behave unreasonably active while in the 150g tank! They would dart in & out, looking for food & chasing / playing with each other, in my opinion, in a very hyperactive way! As have noted to you, the Yamato shrimps (now already to a casualty of 200 plus ) keep dying - they would make a great dance of quick diving and darting around, before long you'll know it's a goner.

As explained by you, the shrimps dying might not due to non-acclimatisation, but I have also ruled out ammonia.

Now I'm curious as to whether could it be because of the DIY CO2. My understanding is that alcohol is easily evaporated into the air and can easily be diluted into water. Am I nuts to even suggest that alcohol could have make the way into the water of the tank via this brew of sugar & yeast?

Hope that you, Mr. Miller, as my "guru" , or any one else in the All Wet Thumb who inadvertently chanced on this post, please enlighten me on this issue.

BTW, thanks to everyone who have posted to the AWT. I'm learning everyday.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Hi, Mr. Miller
It's K.E. from Malaysia. Still figuring how to use "posting" in forum, hopefully this would not reach others accidentally ! Should anyone find me violating any of the posting ethic, my apologies .... first timer & no one ever taught me how to 

Saw your reply to the post "Please help : DIY Yeast CO2" and suddenly a big Q (question) just snapped me - would injecting CO2 produced via fermentation introduces unwanted / deadly substance to the tank - eg, alcohol??? Has anyone addressed this issue before?

As explained in my previous emails to you, I'm injecting CO2 via a 5 litre bottle, and 3 2-litre bottles of yeast and sugar mixture into my 150 gallon tank. There is often this smell of fermentation (smell of alcohol), especially after I shake the bottles. I'm sure there isn't any leakage, as I am getting a strong 5 ~ 7 bubbles per second into the reactor in the tank.

My concerns are that, my cories, mollies, otos (and before hand, my tetras, which are now in another tank) all seems to behave unreasonably active while in the 150g tank! They would dart in & out, looking for food & chasing / playing with each other, in my opinion, in a very hyperactive way! As have noted to you, the Yamato shrimps (now already to a casualty of 200 plus ) keep dying - they would make a great dance of quick diving and darting around, before long you'll know it's a goner.

As explained by you, the shrimps dying might not due to non-acclimatisation, but I have also ruled out ammonia.

Now I'm curious as to whether could it be because of the DIY CO2. My understanding is that alcohol is easily evaporated into the air and can easily be diluted into water. Am I nuts to even suggest that alcohol could have make the way into the water of the tank via this brew of sugar & yeast?

Hope that you, Mr. Miller, as my "guru" , or any one else in the All Wet Thumb who inadvertently chanced on this post, please enlighten me on this issue.

BTW, thanks to everyone who have posted to the AWT. I'm learning everyday.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

The foregoing post is from KE Tan of Kuala Lampur, Malaysia. At his request, I moved this letter out of Private Topics so that y'all can take a jab at his question.

Roger Miller


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## McKee (Feb 7, 2003)

Reducing the liquid medium from entering the tank is as easy as setting up an additional vessel as a gas separator. For removing or at least reducing impurities from the gas, put some actviate charcoal in the bottom of a third vessel located after your gas separator. Fill the bottle with enough water to cover the charcoal. The inlet tube is submerged so the CO2 will bubble through the charcoal/water. The outlet tube is well above the water level.

Sounds reasonable anyway.

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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

I have a water-filled bubble counter that also acts as a gas scrubber. I have begun cleaning it out regularly. It has often smelled faintly like the yeast mix and so I am convinced that something does move through the lines and would be in the tank but for passing through this scrubber. 

Today as I changed the water it did smell a bit like alcohol. I'll check it next week, might have just been the power of suggestion.

How would I prove there was alcohol in the water? Put a match to it? No, not that strong, I'm sure! Any other test, short of drinking it?


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## imported_carpguy (Feb 1, 2003)

I've never heard of this being a problem amongst the DIY folks. 

Worst case scenario its the equivalent of the fumes off a few jugs of wine. K.E. has a lot of bottles going, making for an unusually large evaporation surface, but at the same time its an unusually large box of water. Could the bottles generate enough fumes to create significant concentrations in the tank? Not a clue… 

I don't think carbon is going to adsorb the alcohol, but if its really a concern I'd guess that any alcohol fumes would go back into solution in the sort of bubble-counter/gas-scrubber mentioned by Anonapersona. Then it would have to evaporate off again, but now from a much lower concentration. Change the water in the scrubber/counter once a week and I can't see very much getting to the tank.

Interesting question though. Never thought about it before.


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## KETan (Jul 2, 2003)

Thanks a lot everyone!







By the way, I think I'm done with experimenting with the DIY CO2. As indicated by Mr. Miller previously thru a private email, DIY CO2 might not be a good idea for a tank my size (150g). In replying to this post, he also noted that foreign substances might exist in yeast CO2 but he isn't aware of any problem caused by the presence of those things.

Better not taking a risk. Shall be getting a pressurized system within the days, and off go the "alcohol brewing" thing into backup. Saving on the $$ might not be safe!

Thanks again, Roger! You are indeed a good & patient guru!

Am learning everyday.
And the more I know, the lesser I know I knew!


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## Pedro (Jun 11, 2003)

In my personal experience pressurized CO2 is far more dangerous than the "strange brew" variety. While starting out with plants I used yeast reactors. More times than I can count I awoke to find a cloud of yeast/sugar solution eminating into the tank. In my esperience this has no negative effect--overlooking a slight fouling of the water. In a purely practical sense I think we can assume that any alcohols will be broken down into waste products in short order. In tanks with pressurized systems I have started the day looking at deceased fish. I have found that shrimp--Japonica, ghost, etc--are particularly sensitive to high CO2 concentrations. The behavior of your tank inhabitants "unreasonably active," is most likely due to CO2 conc. spikes, IME. 
Despite the above rationalization I would higly recommend a pressurized CO2 setup. Pressurized is far more effective when used with larger tanks, i.e. 150g.

P.S. Have any of your Japonica (Amano) shrimp turned scarlet red in color before dying?


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I disagree. When the yeast sugar mixture enters the tank it can cause quite toxic conditions to the inhabitants of the tank. I speak from experience on this. But I have never killed a fish with my pressurized system. If one starts slow and works up then you will not have problems. I currently have pressurized feeding into a tank as small as 5.5 gallons.

Now if one was to switch from DIY to pressurized and kept the same bubble count and at the same time switched to a more efficient reactor, which is often the case, then you would have some severe problems.

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## Pedro (Jun 11, 2003)

Rex, do you remember how much yeast/sugar made its way into the tank?

What sort of regulator-valve setup are you running? In my experience this makes all the difference when working with press. CO2. The first setup I used was the welding shop special and I found it quite easy to over/under dose. After upgrading to an M3 regulator, higher quality needle valve, etc., CO2 dosing has become second nature, as oppossed to a constant headache.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Has anyone thought to quiz KE Tan on his water paramenters and the actual CO2 concentrations in the tank? 

That bubble rate was pretty high and in soft water that might be an issue. Moving to pressurized CO2 may side-step the possible contaminates from yeast or alcohol but the water parameters and CO2 concentration is still critical.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Although I've now moved to pressurized CO2, I used the DIY yeast bottle for over 6 years without ever having any problems. As long as you use a check valve, fill the bottle 1/2 to 3/4 full and make sure it stays upright I don't see any danger from it. For 150G tank however, the pressurized tank will save you a lot of work and give you better, more stable CO2 levels.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I have a DIY pressurized CO2 system. But I do have a high quality needle valve. As for the yeast sugar mix I have no idea. It was enough to turn the water cloudy and give it a nice yeasty smell.

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## McKee (Feb 7, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Rex Grigg:
> I have a DIY pressurized CO2 system. But I do have a high quality needle valve. As for the yeast sugar mix I have no idea. It was enough to turn the water cloudy and give it a nice yeasty smell.


That sums up my 90 gallon tank disaster. Milky clouds belching into the tank.









Best piece of advice I ever got about DIY yeast CO2: Use a gas separator! It will prevent disasterous backwash!

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## KETan (Jul 2, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Pedro: P.S. Have any of your Japonica (Amano) shrimp turned scarlet red in color before dying?


Dear Pedro, sorry for replying late - "time lag" lol!

Actually the body of the shrimps would turn into white, having "seizures", darting in & out, before collapsing, say, in a couple of hours.


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## KETan (Jul 2, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by anonapersona:
> Has anyone thought to quiz KE Tan on his water paramenters and the actual CO2 concentrations in the tank?


Hi! Anona. Ammonia is nil. pH before light is about 7.2, after light is about 7.4. KH is about 6 ~ 7, GH about 11. Confirmed substrate containing pieces of crush shell, thus contemplating higher KH with lowering pH. Water from tap pH = 7.5 ~ 7.6, KH about 1 ~ 2, GH = 4. Tank was set up on 15 - 18 May, 2003.

Am learning everyday.
And the more I know, the lesser I know I knew!


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

If you have crushed shell in the substrate you will have a very hard time lowering the pH. If you manage to get the pH into the acidic range it will just dissolve more shell and raise kH, pH, and gH.

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## KETan (Jul 2, 2003)

Hi Rex. You are absolutely right! I have had a terrible time then, trying very very hard to try to achieve a nice range of pH 6.8 ~ 7.0, KH 5 & GH 6. I was so frustrated then, not knowing what was the cause then that when I kept forcing the pH down with more CO2, the KH & GH kept on rising. At a point, the GH rose from 7 to about 12 in 24 hours!

Luckily for me, I chanced upon Roger Miller and with the advices and the assuring words from him, I know now what is the problem and that I should not be that particular on the parameters, as plants and fishes should thrive well within my current water parameters.

No thoughts of serious worry for me at the moment, water is crystal clear, cories, otos & mollies are ok, most of the plants are growing fine, except that I could not get any darn algae eating shrimps, be it our local or Yamato, into my tank! The String / Thread Algae ia rampant, part of the Java Moss that was growing nicely is being "matted" but luckily for me at the moment that is the only algae problem. Tried roxy barbs - not suitable for me - they were not eating the algae but very actively chasing each other in the tank & I thought they scared the rest of the inhibitants too. So, out they went.

My resort now would be trying to go for dosing of fertilizers, as suggested by most of the "guru"s. However, I know very well the risks involved, and are trying digesting every information first before going into that.


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