# some kind of invertebrate bringing up subsoil



## stevebutterworth (Aug 30, 2009)

I have had walstad tanks for years. In 50 years of keeping aquariums, I have
never had this problem.
There are some little critters who invaded the substrate in one of my 125
gal tanks. I feed lots of live foods. mostly daphnia, but also got a mix of
inverts, mostly scuds and bloodworms from sachs, for my outdoor pond, some
of which may have come in with the daphnia.
Anyhow, they destroyed the 125 by bringing up so much subsoil that the tank
could only be maintained by twice weekly water changes. At first I thought
it was some kind of snail, treated the tank and killed off all the visible
snails with no real change. I know, if it was snails, they could have been
protected under the substrate.
I packed the tank up, took the plants out and put them in a new 20 gal tank.
Within a few weeks the little ant hills of subsoil started appearing on top
of the gravel again. Whatever they are must have come over with the
plants...
The next tactic was to inject ich away(formaldehyde and copper) into
the subsoil beneath the mounds. My logic was that if they were inverts it
would do them in. That seemed to work pretty well for a while but was not
really completely effective.
The other tactic was to get a yo yo loach. They are snail and worm getters
and good at rooting for them in the gravel - again no luck.
I am going to start the tank over again unless someone has another treatment
suggestion.
What can I dip the plants in again to insure there are no hitchhikers?


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

You may have to do some research for dosage, and safe levels for different species of plants, but here are a few possibilities:
Some of these may be better at killing different things, like algae, rather than some sort of critter like you are describing. 

Potassium permanganate
Excel (Seachem carbon substitute)
Alum
Bleach (1:20, starting with the older style of bleach, not the more recent concentrated products)
Hydrogen peroxide
KNO3 or other plant fertilizers. Make a concentrated solution. Works by the same principle as salt. 
Snail killer, used at a stronger dose as a dip, not in the tank. 

Other concept:
Quarantine: Do not use anything from the contaminated tank. 
Less severe quarantine: Do not use anything from the substrate of the contaminated tank. Take cuttings, and dip them in whatever you think will help from that list above, then grow the cuttings in a substrate-free tank for a while to see if anything falls off them.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

stevebutterworth said:


> The other tactic was to get a yo yo loach. They are snail and worm getters and good at rooting for them in the gravel - again no luck.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Please don't use chemicals to address this problem. You will be destroying the ecosystem (bacteria, protozoa, etc). The worms are buried in the substrate and thus less impacted by the chemicals. All you're doing is hurting everything else.
> ...


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## Qwertus (Oct 14, 2008)

If its the loaches.. they should be able to clean up inverts pretty quickly. They prob reproduce too quick for the amount of loaches that you added. After all there is a limit to how many inverts a loach can gobble up every time its hungry.


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## stevebutterworth (Aug 30, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> stevebutterworth said:
> 
> 
> > The other tactic was to get a yo yo loach. They are snail and worm getters and good at rooting for them in the gravel - again no luck.
> ...


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I agree about the loach - you need more to draw that conclusion. 

Maybe you could try a heavier substrate like fluorite or something that the creature will have a harder time moving.

If you decide to start again use potassium permanganate (available off ebay or perhaps your local pharmacy/LFS) to sterilize plants/rocks that you want to put in the new tank. Make a solution with water. Add enough to make the water a deep purple/not see through and then soak the plants for an hour or so. This will kill off all algae/hitch hikers/etc, but will leave the plants completely unharmed.


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## LVKSPlantlady (Oct 4, 2009)

NO one has commented as to what these worms could be...IDK either but I want to know!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm not even sure they are worms since I don't think I saw the original poster say he saw them. I'm curious to see what these things are!


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I'm so sorry for your problem. I can't imagine how frustrated you must feel. 

Potassium permanganate is supposed to be able to kill anything. They use in in lakes, and ponds. You might do some research on this. If you took your entire tank apart then next time I'd dip with Potassium permanganate before I'd rescape.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Tex Gal said:


> Potassium permanganate is supposed to be able to kill anything.


Yes, it does. It first acts as powerful oxidant to quickly kill, but then it also brings with it a lot of manganese. Large quantities of manganese then oxidize, precipitate, and permanently settle into the substrate. This manganese may inhibit plants via metal toxicity and/or kill the soil bacteria.

I think an earlier post described a tank meltdown after treating tank with potassium permanganate. It doesn't surprise me.

I would _never_ add potassium permanganate to a tank. A plant dip perhaps, but rinse plants thoroughly afterwards.

That said, the worms are aerobic and have to come up for oxygen sometime, so you just have to get a smarter fish.  I think Female bettas are smart little hunters.


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## stevebutterworth (Aug 30, 2009)

I think I have it figured out. I did some siphoning of the gravel and substrate and found what I am pretty sure are bloodworms. Bloodworms are the larval stage of an insect related to a mayflly.
They avoid light and are great at camouflage, which is a good thing because they are bright red! 
The loach is really after them (their little hills are pushed over by him) since I stopped feeding him (duh). In any event, if I have identified them right, the bloodworms will metamorphose into flying insects and leave. I must try to get rid of the insects, since they only live to lay eggs.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Glad you figured out your issue and have solved it. 

I would not add PP to an entire tank either. If I was to tear my tank down I would dip the hardscape and the plants, however. Glad you don't have to worry about it anymore!


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## Qwertus (Oct 14, 2008)

That was a waste of time tearing down the tank and dosing all those chems then. Most of the fish I have will happily take those worms off your hands


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## treesmcdonald (Mar 14, 2006)

Bloodworms are Betta candy! I agree with Diane try to get some female bettas they should clean up your worms super fast.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

stevebutterworth said:


> I think I have it figured out. I did some siphoning of the gravel and substrate and found what I am pretty sure are bloodworms. Bloodworms are the larval stage of an insect related to a mayflly.
> They avoid light and are great at camouflage, which is a good thing because they are bright red!


Are you sure that what you have are bloodworms (insect larva)? Blackworms, and other aquatic worms, will dig into soil and form piles. Just like earth worms.

See attached photo of my blackworms, a harmless aquatic worm. In August, I paid $7 for a 1/2 pound of these babies to feed my fish.

Here, they look big and black. But now, since I've been cultivating them, they are red and smaller.


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## Noto (Oct 26, 2009)

I had a similar issue in my largest tank, which has a deep soil substrate overlaid with creek gravel. I had removed all the fish and plants while fighting an algae problem and let the thing sit for a couple of weeks with filters, pumps, and lights all turned off. When I flipped the lights back on, there was a layer of fine organic sediment on top of the gravel, anywhere from 1/2" to 1.5" deep, and countless small reddish oligochaetes waving around like a living carpet. They must have hitchhiked in on something, as I have never fed my fish blackworms.

I vacuumed out the bulk of the sediment and restored the livestock, and have seen hide nor hair of the worms since. My fish no doubt mopped up most of the survivors, just as they demolished the thriving copepod, amphipod, and cladoceran populations that developed in the tank while they were away.

I agree that your worms were probably not bloodworms. Bloodworms do not move sediment as oligochaetes do. Just a brief classification note- bloodworms are not related to mayflies, but are in fact larval true flies, in the same order as house flies, etc. The adults (midges) look similar to mosquitos but have spectacular plume-like antennae.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Noto said:


> Just a brief classification note- bloodworms are not related to mayflies, but are in fact larval true flies, in the same order as house flies, etc. The adults (midges) look similar to mosquitos but have spectacular plume-like antennae.


Noto, thank you for this information.


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## natureman187 (Aug 15, 2007)

I've posted about this problem quite some time ago on the NANFA forum. The culprit appears to be aquatic annelids. Their little mounds left unattended became some 1/2 inches of soil atop my substrate before giving up and emptying the system. Sunfish love them - if only it wasn't a shrimp tank...


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

It's funny how some aquarists are looking for ways to eliminate worms or other critters from their tanks and others are wishing they could get them established. Just goes to show how different each system is. I lean more toward Diana and Natureman's thoughts - let the fish feast!:hungry:


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