# [Wet Thumb Forum]-PH and C02



## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

Hi. I have 55 gal planted tank with a KH of 4 and PH of 7.6. I have installed 2 Hagen Plant Gro Systems and it's been up for about a month and so far I don't have enough C02 (obviously). The problem I guess is the PH. Should I attempt to lower it to about 6.8-7? Or should I try adjusting the output hose? Mine is currently 4 inchs from the top and I'm toying with the idea of pushing it down to the halfway level to minimise the dispersion of C02 due to ripple effects. Where do most people put the output hoses from their canister filters? Thanks,


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## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

Hi. I have 55 gal planted tank with a KH of 4 and PH of 7.6. I have installed 2 Hagen Plant Gro Systems and it's been up for about a month and so far I don't have enough C02 (obviously). The problem I guess is the PH. Should I attempt to lower it to about 6.8-7? Or should I try adjusting the output hose? Mine is currently 4 inchs from the top and I'm toying with the idea of pushing it down to the halfway level to minimise the dispersion of C02 due to ripple effects. Where do most people put the output hoses from their canister filters? Thanks,


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

That's a good question and I would like to hear what other people do. 

I have the output of my Eheim 2026 going into an old HOB filter, a Penguin Biowheel minus the wheel. I like the way water flows gently into the tank. I have been wondering if this is wasting some of the CO2 I have been injecting.

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Not to be rude but you should have used the money you spent on the Hagen systems for a pressurized system. DIY just doesn't cut it for 99% of the tanks over about 30 gallons. Even under 30 gallons will do better with a pressurized system. Lowering your pH with some kind of chemical is not going to increase your CO2 levels. The chart only works if the only thing affecting the pH is the CO2 injection. You might want to lower the hose. I run mine pretty close to the bottom of my 55 gallon tank.

Captain,

You are losing some CO2. But if your CO2 levels are good don't worry about it.

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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Rex Grigg:
> Not to be rude but you should have used the money you spent on the Hagen systems for a pressurized system. DIY just doesn't cut it for 99% of the tanks over about 30 gallons.


I don't think that's a totally fair statement. I ran my 40G on DIY yeast quite successfully, and the local guy who grows the most spectacular plants such as the Gratiola and BRIGHT red Ludwigia palustris, Rotala macranda, and even Eichornia diversifolia (who knew that plant could get red?) has a 75G utilizing 3 DIY reactors. And you've seen The Wet Spot's top display tank, which is running a Hagen system. That said, while pressurized CO2 is far from necessary, it DOES make life a whole lot easier, and you may see particularly difficult plants take off in a manner you've never seen before. I know I'm a lot happier running a pressurized system now.


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## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

Thanks for the responses. I wish I would have known, now it's a little late. I'm going to try and lower my hose and see if that helps.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I don't think that's a totally fair statement. I ran my 40G on DIY yeast quite successfully, and the local guy who grows the most spectacular plants such as the Gratiola and BRIGHT red Ludwigia palustris, Rotala macranda, and even Eichornia diversifolia (who knew that plant could get red?) has a 75G utilizing 3 DIY reactors. And you've seen The Wet Spot's top display tank, which is running a Hagen system. That said, while pressurized CO2 is far from necessary, it DOES make life a whole lot easier, and you may see particularly difficult plants take off in a manner you've never seen before. I know I'm a lot happier running a pressurized system now.


 I think the local guy is adding dye to his plants. I have seen them come into the wet spot with pink roots! Ever see pink roots? I have been after TWS to test the CO2 levels in that display tank but they have not done so yet. They had that tank for a long time with no CO2. And don't forget that particular tank is not really a high light tank. As I recall they are only running 2 wpg on it.

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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

How much CO2 are you adding to the water with the two yeast systems? It doesn't matter where the CO2 comes from, as long as it gets dissolved in the water. I doubt that moving your outlet will fix this problem, assuming that its already submerged 4 inches.

On the subject of DIY vs pressurized, its the ease of control of pressurized that sets it apart from DIY. As long as you don't mind endless tinkering, and bouncing pH, DIY is fine. I was never interested, so DIY was never an option.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Rex Grigg:
> And don't forget that particular tank is not really a high light tank. As I recall they are only running 2 wpg on it.


This might be an important point. The general push for CO2 levels of 20 to 30 ppm is based on light levels higher than 2 wpg, isn't it?


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Pretty much so. You can get by with less CO2 in lower light tanks. Also if you ever notice the display tank at The Wet Spot they have a real problem with BGA in that tank. You have to look to find it as they try and keep it under control but it's there.

Lower light tanks don't need as much CO2, but the plants will still enjoy higher levels.

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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Rex Grigg:
> I think the local guy is adding dye to his plants. I have seen them come into the wet spot with pink roots! Ever see pink roots? I have been after TWS to test the CO2 levels in that display tank but they have not done so yet. They had that tank for a long time with no CO2. And don't forget that particular tank is not really a high light tank. As I recall they are only running 2 wpg on it.


I HIGHLY doubt he's dying plants. I know him personally and he just happens to have the magic touch with plants through a lot of experimentation and diligence, much like "our" own Tom Barr. I will see him tonight at the GPAS meeting and will ask him point-blank about it, though. Hopefully he'll still talk to me afterwards.









As for the display tank, it utilizes CF rather than NO bulbs plus has a reflector. That easily adds another "watt" to the lighting specs. Again, I have NO argument that a pressurized system is not a) better or b) ultimately easier, but to say that only 1% of tanks over 30 gallons (no mention of lighting levels) will "cut it" with DIY CO2 paints a misleadingly grim picture. I've done it successfully (even if not AS successfully as with a pressurized system), as have many others.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Sure it can be done. There is a thread about this in the main forum. But it requires a lot more work than most people are going to put out. Putting one Hagen bottle on a 55 gallon tank is not going to help a lot. If it doesn't cause a noticeable change in the pH it's not doing much.

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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Sure it can be done.


And that essentially was my point.



> quote:
> 
> But it requires a lot more work than most people are going to put out.


I agree and never argued that it requires a lot of work, but more work than most people will put up with? I know very few of the local aquatic gardeners in town use a pressurized system, instead using a DIY system. Most people's first experiences with CO2 are with DIY. No doubt, though, the sooner one can get their hands on a pressurized system, the better.



> quote:
> 
> Putting one Hagen bottle on a 55 gallon tank is not going to help a lot.


Depends on your definition of "a lot". It did my 40 a whole lot of good, and TWS's 55 has always responded favorably. And it certainly need not specifically be a Hagen system, and it need not be just one reactor. I think this disagreement may be more of a semantic issue than anything else, though.


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by 2la:
> I will see him tonight at the GPAS meeting and will ask him point-blank about it, though. Hopefully he'll still talk to me afterwards.


FWIW, he laughed hysterically in my face. On the topic of plant color he also mentioned without specific prompting his surprise to find his Ludwigia palustris growing red roots. The guy is good.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I wonder what he is feeding the plants. I have seen the Ludwigia with the red roots at TWS. It's really strange. Does he keep fish in the same tank as he grows the plants in? If so does he feed any color enhancing food? That could explain it. I have had wonderful red Ludwigia palustris in my tanks but never had the red roots.

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## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

Let me give you guys a back ground on my tank. Sorry.
I'm running 110w cf all-glass strip lights.
I'm running 2 hagen reactors.


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## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by gsmollin:
> How much CO2 are you adding to the water with the two yeast systems? It doesn't matter where the CO2 comes from, as long as it gets dissolved in the water. I doubt that moving your outlet will fix this problem, assuming that its already submerged 4 inches.
> ...


the amount of c02 is determined by my PH of 7.6 and kh which is 4. Is that what ur asking? I'm not sure....


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## Steve Hampton (Feb 13, 2004)

Deltaboy, I'm sorry I let the topic drift from your original question, though I think it's really been dealt with pretty good.

To summarize:

The Hagen system is for a 20G tank, two on a 55G tank is simply not adequate. This is evident with your low 3ppm CO2, a rate that would be comparable to a non-injected tank.

Ideally, a tank the size of a 55G would be CO2 injected by a pressurized system. But, in reality, it is simply not financially possible for everyone, all the time, or the family may have objections...lots of valid reasons.

The best course of action is with DIY yeast generated CO2. It can be done, and it can be fairly stable for a 55G tank. Personally I didn't believe this, but my friend Tula (2la) convinced me it was possible...and it was. I personally have experience and success using DIY yeast CO2 on a 55G tank. It is a lot of work and trouble, you can not be lazy of lax. Using the proper volume of "yeast generators" and establishing a routine of replenishment can make this system work for a 55G tank. Rex is correct, most people fail at using DIY yeast CO2, but not because of the system, but from lack of doing the deeds.

If your interested in changing to DIY yeast or if you'd like to add to the Hagen systems with DIY yeast let us know and links and additional information will be provided.


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Rex Grigg:
> I wonder what he is feeding the plants. I have seen the Ludwigia with the red roots at TWS. It's really strange. Does he keep fish in the same tank as he grows the plants in? If so does he feed any color enhancing food? That could explain it. I have had wonderful red Ludwigia palustris in my tanks but never had the red roots.


Good question, though I'm not sure how the pigments would be taken up by the plants. I'll ask him next chance I get. BTW, he brought in some Cabomba caroliniana that's *orange* from top to bottom. Craziness!


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## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> If your interested in changing to DIY yeast or if you'd like to add to the Hagen systems with DIY yeast let us know and links and additional information will be provided.


Steve (and everyone else), if you could provide that info I be obliged. Thanks.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Here is a link with good diagrams. I strongly recommend using a bubble counter, not for counting the bubbles as much as for scrubbing any yeast or sugars from the line in case liquids leave the generator.

A Treatise on DIY CO2 Systems


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## deltaboy (Feb 14, 2003)

this looks awesome...thanks...


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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by deltaboy:
> 
> ...


The pH and KH tell us how much CO2 is dissolved, as carbonic acid, in the water. A KH of 4 and a pH of 7.6 is at atmospheric equilibrium levels; there is apparently no extra carbonic acid in your water. My question is how much CO2 are you putting into the water. For instance, in my pressurized system, I am currently adding 0.6 bubbles/second into a 42 gallon aquarium. My CO2 concentration is 15-20 ppm, depending on day/night. Other CO2 incidental facts are: My filter return is submerged 1/2 inch below the surface, and does cause small ripples on the surface. There is also a buried airstone that makes some bubbles.

Other incidentals: I was injecting 1 bubble/s, and had a 25-30 ppm carbonic acid concentration. My KH is 5, so the pH was kind of low, and I cut back to 0.6 b/s. pH got to where I wanted it, but the pearling has stopped. I suppose I'll tweak it back up to 0.8 b/s to see if I can get the pearling back. The ease of control is why I like pressurized.


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

Folks, I've been running a 55 gallon tank, low light with DIY CO2 for months with good success.
I have found that I need 4 bottles of standard CO2 mix, and must turn off one of my HOB filters to decrease the gas off to get my target pH. AND, the bottles must be changed every 8 days. This, IMO is not workable over the long haul. Consequently, I'm going to pressurized this week. Too much mixing and tinkering. I'm dedicated, but not crazy.
I would suggest to anyone with a 50 gallon tank or larger seriously consider pressurized. At the rate I was mixing, I'll save it back in yeast and sugar in one year.
Len

HAVE DISCS - WILL TRAVEL


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