# Adapting the Flourish line of ferts to the EI Method



## Osteomata (Jan 11, 2005)

Please feel free to recommend adjustments to this test/routine!

While most EI users appear to favor dry ferts, such as Greg Watson's line, some of us already have the entire Flourish line and only have nano tanks. Considering this, I want to try to adapt the Flourish line to EI. 

This thread marks the begining of my experiment, I'll keep the forum advised if anyone is interested.

Tanks: 1 gallon nano (soon to shift all occupents to a 2G), and a 15G tall. 
Lighting: 1 gallon has 13watt pc, 15G has 40 watt pc, 12 hour cycle.
Substate: Eco Complete, appropriatly enough
Bio-load: kinda of high in both: 2 inches per gallon i would say
Filtration: nano has the red sea nano HOB, 15G has the Zoomed 501 canister, no carbon in either one
Plant load: heavy, fully planted
Water conditions: Tap is pretty soft (kH3) about 7.4. Tank conditions indicate nitrate and phosphate deficiencies (5 and 0 ppm respectively)
CO2: Flourish in the nano, mix of DIY and Flouish in the 15G

Fert routing before I started this experiment: Followed the Flourish instruction on each bottle adjusted for volume. Dosed this amount twice per week except Excel which get dosed daily.

Why I am switching routines: Algea. While plant growth has been satisfactory in the nano and amazing in the 15G, I have had sporadic BGA in both tanks, and other algae types as follows: 
- the nano seems to have settled down to only procuding heavy green spot on the tank walls. 
-the 15G has extensive hair algae, very heavy close to the top of the tank on stem plants. 
- the 15G had a couple of leaves with BBA, which I physically removed yesterday. 
- The 15g started mass producing staghorn algea recently as well.
- Strangely, the 15G has very little green spot algea on the walls.

My plan is to kill the existing algae using a combination of Excel overdose, physical removal, and spot H2O2 treatment, while adjusting my fert routine to address the condistions that led to the algea in the first place. 

New routine: After seeking advice from the SEACHEM rep on our forum, I am starting with a 50 percent increase in my weekly dosage by dosing the recommended amounts 3x/week instead of 2x. 
Day 1: 50% water change, dose all ferts per label
Day 2: Dose Excel and Macros (Flouish N, Flouish P, Flourish K) per label
Day 3: Dose Excel, Micros and Trace (Flourish and Flourish Iron) per label
Day 4: Only Excel
Day 5: Dose Excel and Macros (Flouish N, Flouish P, Flourish K) per label
Day 6: Dose Excel, Micros and Trace (Flourish and Flourish Iron) per label
Day 7: Only Excel
Repeat

I started today, but I have been doing the algae killing things for 3 days. I am hoping that my algae killing spree will show firm results by the end of week 1. I will be testing more than I usually do this week, and adjust my routine in week two aiming for 10-20 ppm Nitrates and 1-2 ppm PO4. I suspect i will need to increase my macro dosages.

Any comments or suggestions?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

As you get smaller and higher lighting levels, things need more frequent maintenance. The nano tanks are tough since they have little reserve and with high plant density and growth rates, they can quickly double and regrow in a matter of 2-3 days.

I greatly prefer non CO2 and low light for smaller tanks, why? Less pruning and better stability. Heck, you only have what? 4-6" of growth room before you need to prune?

Compared to a 90 gallon where I'd have 12-20" in the same ratio of height.

While the small size allows you to work the entire tank in less time, the tank needs more frequent maintenance.

Now, you add a high fish load to each tank on top of that...........

Given your goals, you'd be better off lowering the fish load, reducing light(9-10 hours) and dosing more N.

Dosing routine looks fine and the target levels do as well.

For the algae: heck, it's only a tiny tank.
Get in there and trim and pick off the all the algae.
Those weeds will grow back quickly (by the end of the week).

Get in there and prune and preen and clean.
Then you can go back to normal routines once the tank stabilizes.
Also, add some more sponge material to the nano tank's filter section.

The tank will not stabilize if you are overloading the fish(BBA, Staghorn).

Since excel is claimed to kill BBA, why do you still have it? I added that and green hair to a tank that has for over 8 week recieved heavy 2x excel dosing. Neithe ralgae is dying and the hair algae is growing well still.
I also lost L madagascarensis due to the Excel's impact. This also was true with H2O2 treatment protocals.

Seems both have a negative effect on some sensitive plants. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

I have already been using the seachem line to the EI method, works great, IMO. 10 g in 4 wpg.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Greg Morin has looked at the EI ranges and the older List of rec parameters and levels:

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_02.shtml
This was written back in 1996-7, almost 10 years ago. 
Many of the macro's came out about 4-5 years ago.
Others soon followed suit.

We did a lot of testing and balancing of NO3 and PO4 while maintaining the K+(something Jeff said was the main thing PPS accomplishes...making me still wonder how it's different than what we did nearly a decade ago) You'll note the SF tap water is also like RO. And yep, we used good high quality test kits to keep the nutrients in those ranges.

While Seachem developed PO4 and nitrogen dosing based off what hobbyists did, they also made things so that you can dose each nutrient fairly independently.

So you can do a looser version of EI or test and focus on a narrower range with PPS.

Either way, the plants are happy.

I think most of us really over focus on a certain range or precise measurement. Things eb and flow in the tank and that's fine, unless extremes are done, plant growth is stable and consistent. Looking at that over time is much more telling.

I'm not sure how the NH4 component influences the plant's N metabolism, Greg seems to think it has a noted improvement of plants vs NO3 alone.
Which maybe the case but if it's complexed, there is an energy release assocaited with that that balances out the gain from using it to some degree, the same can be said for strong chelators, the plant has to rip the nutrients out of the cage, so to speak, to use it.

SeaChem PO4 and K+, are just KH2PO4 and KCL diluted in water with a dosing routine for ppm ranges on the bottle and directions.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Osteomata (Jan 11, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I greatly prefer non CO2 and low light for smaller tanks, why? Less pruning and better stability. Heck, you only have what? 4-6" of growth room before you need to prune?


Yeah, the nano is non-CO2, just excel. The light is simply whats available to me right now, but I have the unused hood that I will modify for a 11 watt light soon. As for the 15 gallon: its my only other tank, and thus my only tank where I can experiment with CO2 and high light... and at 18 inches in height, I do have to prune regularly, but not as often as say a 20 long.



plantbrain said:


> Now, you add a high fish load to each tank on top of that...........
> 
> Given your goals, you'd be better off lowering the fish load, reducing light(9-10 hours) and dosing more N.


OK, in the nano I have 1 dwarf puffer and a handfull of cherry shrimp. Limited algae in the nano, parameters look fine, so I think I can stick with this fish load. I am getting confused as to which tank you are referring to in each of your comments... Perhaps I should have been clearer in my initial post.
The nano is doing just fine right now, I am barely modifying my routine for it. Very little algae just the green on the tank walls.
Its the 15 Gallon that has all my problems: various algae types.



plantbrain said:


> The tank will not stabilize if you are overloading the fish(BBA, Staghorn).


Well, I am not sure it is overloaded since I have only been doing a modified routine for only 5 days. If I resolve the algae problems, parameters stay within check, and plants grow, then I conclude it is not overloaded. If, however, I can't achieve all those things, then I will give in and reduce the bio-load.



plantbrain said:


> Since excel is claimed to kill BBA, why do you still have it? I added that and green hair to a tank that has for over 8 week recieved heavy 2x excel dosing. Neithe ralgae is dying and the hair algae is growing well still.


Well, I only did the double dose for 1 day before I removed the BBA manually. It has not come back. As an update, I have been doing the double dose for about 6 days now, the staghorn is clearly turning red, the hair/fuzz algae on the top of my stem plants is mostly gone, and my tanks walls are nearly perfect. Though a bit early in the process, if forced to make conclusions now I would say that the double doseing of excel has helped kill the algae, and my increased fert application via a modified EI method is working to prevent new algae growth. In short, Im pretty dang happy with the results.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Cool.
Excel and good CO2 are very similar.
Keep the Double dosing for awhile.

Like adding more nutrients, adding more excel when the tasnk is higher light or/and densely planted is a reasonable notion to apply.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Osteomata (Jan 11, 2005)

OK, a little update. I have been using my new EI-based fert routine (using only Flourish products) for about 2 weeks, and double dosing Flourish Excel for about 3 weeks. (double dosing only the follow-on Excel doses, not doubling the initial/after water change doses). As mentioned in the first post : specific dosage amounts is precisely in accordance with a single dose listed on the label for each Flourish product, all I have done is increase the frequency of dosing. The only change I have made since the first post is to modify the dose schedule for an 8 day cycle vice 1 week by adding a "rest" day after the water change/dose everthing day. It just seemed to make more sense. My results are mixed:
15 Gallon: seems to have helped. 
- BBA has not come back
- BGA: I found a couple of strands of moss covered in it, manually removed them, so far so good. The BGA I had on my Tiger Lotus several weeks ago has not come back.
- Staghorn algae on my crypt mostly died in the first week of double excel, I removed the remnants manually, and it has not come back
- Hair/cotton ball algae on the moss and top of the stem plants initially lessoned significantly, but has resurfaced a bit on the stem plants. Overall, it has reduced, but not been eliminated
- Not sure what we call it: the green algae on the glass, not hair, just lots of dots: It is about the same as before the new routine. I clean it weekly, it comes back but not too bad.

1 gallon nano: Algea is significantly worse overall, but limited to hair algea, mainly on the tank walls. I dont have any BBA, BGA, Staghorn, or other significant problems, just a WHOLE LOT of Hair algae, some strands several inches long.

So, I conclude what? I may have the dosing about right for the 15 Gallon, but I have screwed up my nano. The challenge continues...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Smaller tanks become progressively tougher to run at higher light/Carbon enrichement routines.

I have little issue with 1 to 6 gal non CO2/Excel tanks.

Damn things grow too fast even for those parameters! hehe
Filtration and adding equipment is also tougher the smaller you go.

I'm not sure if you are famailar with Mame Bonsai, they need watered very often due to their very small size.

Likewise, 
With a 1 gal tank, you might find this routine easier:
Dump the water out, and change once every 2-3 days.
Dosing after the water change only.
Try this daily if the 2 or 3 day method does not work.

At least till the tank balances out. Nutrient levels are changing rapidly in there and the limited bacterial biomass has a tough time keeping up with cycling.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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