# algae in a dry start tank



## hornedtoad1

i set up a dry start 5 gallon on june 15, with
anubias nana
java moss
crypt. parva
hemianthus callitrichoides
hemianthus micranthemoides

mgo potting mix under a layer of local red sand.
s/s is pretty wet, there's usually a thin layer of water shining on the s/s.

the plants are all doing well, but there's a layer of algae forming on the sand, and on the glass above for an inch or so, too.
is this something i should be worried about? has anybody else had this happen? when the tank is filled the algae will drown and rot, will be a mess, but how serious will that be?
any ideas will be appreciated, thanks.


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## NeonFlux

Hmm, could be excess nutrients.. Eh this kind of stuff happens, I think it is fine and natural. So just leave it be, unless it starts attacking your plants, then try swiping them off.

Good luck!


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## niko

With this (inferior) way to start a tank you can have 2 problems only:

1. Blue Green Algae
That is what you have

2. Fungus
You can't see it. Plants will wither and die for no apparent reason. It grows on the roots.

For your problem the solution is easy - Erytrhomycin. Find information on the net how to dose it. 

The following is guaranteed:

Day 1:
Flood the tank just above the plants and add the dose for that volume of water. Remove manually all BGA. 
Day 2:
Drain all water, refill to the same level, treat with EM. 
Day 3:
Third day - same. 
Day 4:
Drain the water and continue with this convoluted way to allow roots to form before you fill the tank up.

If you get Fungus (plants just don't grow for some reason) let me know.

Good luck.

--Nikolay


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## NeonFlux

Interesting info, nikolay. I did not know about fungus being able to attack root areas of plants.. I guess I have not experienced it yet, I think.


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## niko

Haha!

Fungus is a common problem in an emersed culture. I found the dumbest, most easy way to deal with it. You should see the collection of anti-fungal spray bottles I had acquired. Copper, organic, what not.

Emersed aquatic plants culture is a unique thing and gives you a simple tool to deal with fungus.

--Nikolay


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## hornedtoad1

thanks everybody for your comments, they're much appreciated.
bga--will it survive once the tank is flooded? i'd love it if i could just leave it alone until then.
i've ordered some nerite snails for the other tank, they'll arrive tomorrow. they say those little buggers are tidal and can live out of water--what would you think about putting one in there? would it eat bga on damp sand? it's a very humid environment.
i did 2 small temporary floodings this morning, just a couple inches or so above the s/s, to remove some of the excess nutrients. (none of the hc floated, that was good.) also lowered the light level (covered the window and raised the light to 6 inches or so above the tank).
the plants in general are growing, so i'm guessing that fungus is not a problem. 
niko--i'd be interested in why a dry start is not the best way to get root growth.
thanks again.


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## hornedtoad1

did some reading about this bga plague; yes, it survives submerged, and the snails probably wouldn't eat it even if they would be able to live on land.
looks like i probably should dose with the erythromycin; thanks for the tip, niko.


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## niko

Horned,

What I'm about to type is not really an answer to your question. It's a few facts that we, unfortunatelly, don't know how to deal with. Don't take the following personally in any way.

Dry stars is not that great because the idea is very logical but what happens next is pretty pathetic. 

So the idea is to make the roots grow nicely and then flood the tank. Nice roots = healthy start for the plants. Really? So what is it that we do after the roots grow nice, snow white, long &thick? We fill the tank with water. Ok.

And after filling up we don't have much idea how to keep the tank algae free. I suspect that because Tom Barr came up with the dry start the next thing after filling up the tank is dumping a bunch of dry fertilizers in it.

At this point the algae can take over if they feel like it. Because food is in the water. Plain and simple. So why go through the headache of dry start at all? Because somehow miraculously the well developed plant roots will change the game completely and algae will not have a chance? 

I can run my mouth all I want. What I really want to hear is that when using a dry start you can start a completely algae free tank every single time. But I think I know the answer to that - "You also have to know and do a million other things and then it really works." So what's the point of the dry start again?

My post is more appropriate for Tom's forum. Unfortunatelly I do not believe in EI and I'm still waiting for the day when Tom - a nice and knowledgeable guy - will declare EI's death and show us a new and amazing method that works for all of us. Every time and with answers to a few common problems.

--Nikolay


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## hornedtoad1

hey nikolay,
thanks for the input; you sound like a man on a mission. 
i am pretty new at all this stuff, and am still looking to find things that work. i read ms walstad's book, it made sense to me, so thought i'd give it a try, but if there's something out there that works better, then i'm all for it. i basically would just like a tank that grows plants well without a lot of hassle. 
also, it seems to me that a dry start is maybe a good way to start the hc, along with other slow-growing plants, and maybe they won't all get starved for co2 after the flood. worth a shot, anyway, and the process is interesting. 
the plants have slowed down their growth, some of the hc is starting to rot, so something's got to be done. the local pharmacist had some erythromycin for sale--a pound of the stuff for $275 was his best offer, so i've ordered it online.
thanks,
toad


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## niko

Well then you are going to need a short introduction on where the planted tank hobby is today. You will not find it anywhere so here it is:

*1. In the US the hobby is divided into "low tech" and "high tech".*

--> Low tech 
does not use CO2
low light
do not add fertilizers
the substrate is seen as a source of CO2 + nutrients.
slow flow
Filtration is not really discussed in details
Main method - El Natural
Algae problems - seldom, tanks are "slow" and stable.
Tank stability - extremely stable - will not deteriorate easily if ignored for several weeks
Example tanks:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/78536-aquascaping-low-tech.html




https://picasaweb.google.com/ddasega/DFWAquaticPlantClubMeetingPart1Inside#5622950071881837746

--> High tech
use CO2 - high levels (30 ppm)
medium to strong light
dry or liquid fertilzers added in the water in amounts that you can actually test for (1 ppm, 5 ppm, 10 ppm)
the substrate is generally seen as a source of nutrients only. Not discussed much
slow to medium flow. Not discussed much
Filtration - using canister filters mainly. Not really discussed in details.
Main methods - EI and PPS
Algae problems - normally not, but when they come we do not have good ways to fight them.
Tank stability - extremely unstable - will deteriorate easily if ignored for even a week. It is normal to reduce the light and turn off the CO2 when going on vacation + work to bring the tank back to normal upon return.
Example tanks:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/3280213444_c3f2a2bc70.jpg
http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af240/dutchy1706/cards2.jpg

*2. In Asia the rule is super clean water (no fertilizers in it), strong flow, light can be low or super high, filtration is viewed as important part, CO2 is not very high, fertilization is done minimally.*
Not much information in English what exactly they do and why.
Example tanks:
(click on any picture to see more shots)
http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Aquascape_Gallery2010.htm
http://fish.mongabay.com/images/bigtank.jpg





*3. Germany, Holland*
A what? 
We in the US have no clue and care little how they do it. The Dutch aquascaping style that you see above is frowned upon nowadays and seen as obsolete (even in Europe):
http://www.aquabotanic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/willem.jpg

So.
To have the most involvement in the US community you got to use EI or PPS. Or you can use El Natural but things will happen much slower and relatively less people do it.

Hope that helps.

--Nikolay


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## hornedtoad1

nikolay, thanks for the info; these are really some wonderful aquariums, i can see i've got a lot to learn.
i do like low tech, tho; the premise is so simple, and works ok so far for me.


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## hornedtoad1

the erythromycin came yesterday; i dosed the tank with about 20 mg in one gal of water, enough to cover the plants.


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## hornedtoad1

update on the bga in the dry start tank--
today was the 5th full daily dose of em; the only difference is that the sheets of bga are gone because i siphoned them out with the doses. no dead algae floating on the surface, and there's still some beneath the plants that i couldn't get to.
maybe i got a bad batch of em, or maybe there was regular algae as well as the bga. i used more than the regulation dose, probably 40mg or so per gallon or two of water. it's a real head-scratcher. anybody have any thoughts about it?
the tank is dry again tonight; it's been about 7 weeks since the setup, and if i had a place to put the blessed thing i'd probably fill it up, put in a bunch of plants and see what they could do. but it's on a table that wouldn't take the weight. have to wait until i get a stand for it.


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## Gordonrichards

I'd just offer less humidity in the tank.
I have about 6 emerged tanks and that works for me.

-Gordon


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## hornedtoad1

thanks, gordon; there was standing water in the tank for most of the time, i guess that wasn't such a good idea.
the bga smell is gone, so that's good news.


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## hornedtoad1

hello everybody--
update on this tank. 
the erythromycin seemed to pretty much take care of the bga. 
it was flooded on aug 17, after about 2 months dry.
results so far are good--bga hasn't come back, no other algae either. the hc was struggling initially, so i've been giving daily small doses of flourish excel. added a half dozen baby platies and some amazon frogbit when it was filled. the plants, including the hc, are showing new growth, and the fish are healthy.
ammonia and nitrite are zero. it's never had any tannins, either. looking pretty good so far.
thanks again everybody for your advice with this thing, it really helped.


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## hornedtoad1

another update--
got some red cherry shrimp for this tank yesterday, and removed the platies.
so far there's been no algae, no tannins, no amm etc. the frogbit seems to be starving, the tank is so clean. my first time doing a dsm aquarium, and in spite of the problems, i've got to say i like the results. even the process has been enjoyable.


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