# All you need is Love...and IRON! A must see...



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

From my own experiences with aquatic plants? I agree with Dr.Novak. All that other stuff others say to mix in a strange brew?..no need. No Phosphates,no Nitrogen and certainly no Ammonia, no gravel additives or special substrates. 
Watch this..go over his other vids as he takes on other fertilizers and methods and why.
I say..Iron gluconate is all over other forms of iron. What's really great too? It's a fertilizer that is NOT used by algae..it goes to the plants. Unlike tablets and all that mess that will give you green water. Iron might even make fish healthier..good for red blood cells,perky active fish.
Tell me what you think,My mind is open.


----------



## Gerald (Mar 24, 2008)

Sounds like iron was the MISSING nutrient in your case. Plants DO still need N, P, K, Ca, Mg, etc. Without a suitable mix of those, adding more Fe wont help. The others may be plentiful in your water and/or fish food. "Not needed" in your particular tank is not the same as "plants don't need ..."


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

I made it through a few minutes of all that BS video.
If I dosed no NO3 & no PO4 my tank would be filled with dying plants and glass covered algae.

Everything must be true on the web, especially YouTube.[smilie=b:


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Gerald said:


> Sounds like iron was the MISSING nutrient in your case. Plants DO still need N, P, K, Ca, Mg, etc. Without a suitable mix of those, adding more Fe wont help. The others may be plentiful in your water and/or fish food. "Not needed" in your particular tank is not the same as "plants don't need ..."


And, algae also need iron to grow. Iron in a bioavailable form has to be dissolved in water, so it is Fe+++ or Fe++, and chelated iron does that, too. One possible way to make life difficult for for algae is to keep bioavailable iron away from algae - keep it in the substrate instead of in the water. I'm dreaming up ways to experimentally demonstrate this.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

I guess you have to try it!..What more can I say? I even posted a scientist who's kept water systems for 30 years..he cites studies he and others have done..he uses lab quality instruments and you can see his readouts. He's even like more hard core waterplantaholic..using canisters of Co2.I havent change my pumps,substrate or even fish..yet since November I've gotten growth like never before and I imagine what Co2 would do on top of this. On the other hand that Sword looks darn impressive and at this rate its going to be centerpiece of the tank.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Everybody's tank is different. When someone propose a quick easy answer, you'd have to be skeptical. Sure you can try it out but expect it not to work.


----------



## Gerald (Mar 24, 2008)

Kevin Novak's tank appears to have a fairly dense fish load: several adult angels, cories, SAEs, plecos, danios, etc. He's probably getting all the N and P he needs from fish food. He's right about ammonium being the "preferred" form of N for aquatic plants -- they can use it more efficiently than nitrate. Diana's book explains this too. BUT ammonium is of course toxic to fish at far less dosage than nitrate.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Actually, there is an easy answer. Put dirt in your substrate and you don't need to do anything except feed your fish.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

You have to understand...dirt in the substrate only feeds for a short while...everything the plants need is eventually dissolved and what's left is as inert as gravel..only looks cool because its so fine.
Aquarist do NOT have feeder streams or even hilly banks where nutrients are drawn by gravity and hydrolysis and capillary actions to keep the soils in that river bank or pond with nutrients that flow onto foliage and roots of aquatic plants.
Potting soils has a very short life underwater..works great for a month maybe..then if you don't dose..the plant will begin to show..needs. Of course it can work too well..and there you are with algae on everything.
Basically your better served studing hydroponics..and also served to keep in mind unlike the brute force of heavy nutrients for terrestrial plant roots and growth..we have much lighter feeders who are immersed totally in what we add to the water.
Just remember when you read of Osmocote or tablets what those ferts do when runoff from farms to aquatic plants in streams...nothing but wads of algae and dead water plants.
I would add maybe you use near sterile RO water or local waters have far too much this and way not enough that..that's what you need to compensate for.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Stan510 said:


> You have to understand...dirt in the substrate only feeds for a short while...everything the plants need is eventually dissolved and what's left is as inert as gravel..only looks cool because its so fine.
> Aquarist do NOT have feeder streams or even hilly banks where nutrients are drawn by gravity and hydrolysis and capillary actions to keep the soils in that river bank or pond with nutrients that flow onto foliage and roots of aquatic plants.
> Potting soils has a very short life underwater..works great for a month maybe..then if you don't dose..the plant will begin to show..needs. Of course it can work too well..and there you are with algae on everything.
> Basically your better served studing hydroponics..and also served to keep in mind unlike the brute force of heavy nutrients for terrestrial plant roots and growth..we have much lighter feeders who are immersed totally in what we add to the water.
> ...


Have you ever tried ordinary dirt as a layer in a substrate, where the roots can get to it, but little of the nutrients leech into the water? No doubt the dirt will eventually run short on some of the nutrients, but for a year or two I doubt that it will run short. I rarely keep a tank set-up going unchanged for longer than 2 years, so I have no experience with longer use of dirt in the substrate. When you also have fish in the tank, and feed them well, the nutrients that run short first, are constantly being replaced from the fish waste and excess fish food. Nitrogen is the one that I believe goes the fastest.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I had a dirt tank last for 3 years, not months. I don't know if you know but dirt has very high CEC. It'll pull in nutrients from fish waste or any that you add. What wont last too long is the peak CO2 generation from decaying organics in the soil. You'll need to add more organics eventually.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

What I've done since the 80's is grow aquarium plants in pots. I noticed I was always wanting to move plants and when they were in the gravel,i was stuck. Then,being into gardening I thought I would use potting soils in the pots with gravel over it and yes,did the plants grow very fast. R.macrandra,Crypts.even Swords..but swords were compact rosettes,not long and wide leaves..so the potting soils were short of something for them I could see that.
Anyways...after weeks of fine growth,the Rotala would get weaker,off color..
Like anything potted,the soil were exhausted. Outdoors,you pot up to a larger pot,OR,you remove the old soils by washing them off and do some root pruning...fill with fresh soils.
Now,when you layer the bottom of an aquarium with soil additives..no way to recharge it with plants covering it.
My theory(fact) now is..aquarium plants in a closed system get near 100% of their nutrition from the water. The plants do better in Amano's brown beads..because they allow the aquarium water to percolate oxygen and nutrients to the roots,unlike sands. Those roots long ago stopped direct absorption from the substrate. You are now into aquaponics. We ALL are.
In fact I've moved the fine sands in my aquarium to the far left and far right...the middle is now plain white aquarium gravels. No additives to it..only Iron Gluconate,some potassium gluconate just in case. all of course dissolved into the aquarium water.
I never intended to have many plants..hence the pool sands to begin with. My priorities changed as plant fever got me!


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

Dirted tanks with potting soil last about 18 months for me, also with dosing the water column.
With high PAR & CO2 the water column needs dosing.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

I can see putting soils in an aquarium might seem like a good idea..but potting soils are not like true clay soils..they de gas..evaporate. You ever see large outdoor concrete planters filled with artificial mixes? Plants grow like gangbusters...for a maybe a few years ( Im talking many yards of soil)..then the problems start..they are not rich anymore...they start as I said to be eaten by bacteria and made into gas...Something like 50% or more is gone and the plants in 3 or 4' of soil are now in two foot of..rootmass.
Real dirt?...well they eventually become in your tank,I would bet ( haven't tried that long term) become modeling clay!.lol. All the nutrition gone and what you have left is what you see in many farm ponds or man made small lakes..water plants near the edge where runoff is great for plants..and farther out its just clay..hard wet clay. Black usually.
So,I might consider mixing in handful of either in a new setup,you also risk they give off more of what algae like than water plants. For sure plenty of tannins that are going to take months of water changes to subdue.
Like I say..Aquarium plants= hydroponics. You want nutritious water flowing over the foliage..and through the roots who only really need the gravel for anchorage. Also,roots are light sensitive. Hence only epiphytes are fine with light on their roots.
But,again tap water has much of what they need..find out what you don't have..and from what I can see,iron is never enough in tap water to make aquariums plants thrive from end to end. Iron gluconate that is.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Mar 5, 2015)

Stan510 said:


> but potting soils are not like true clay soils..they de gas..evaporate.
> 
> Real dirt?...well they eventually become in your tank,I would bet ( haven't tried that long term) become modeling clay!.lol.
> 
> ...


Potting soils can work just fine, clay is not even needed.

Topsoil can work wonders.

Sift all wood matter out and no tannin from day one.

Sadly you are way too high strung on this Fe gluconate kick all over the web.
It lasts less than 24 hours in a planted tank before becoming unavailable to plants.
Daily dosing is required to maintain Fe levels.
Fe is not the only micro nutrient required to meet plants needs.
Maybe you just got lucky until the next deficiency shows itself.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

So far, its short term viability hasn't been a problem. IF,its short term meant ,every single day capfuls of the stuff THAT would be a problem. It's a food..the plants "eat" and they are good to go for days and days..once a week,or twice a week seems plenty so far. After the plants are looking good,that's once or twice,HALF the amount I started with that is recommended on the bottle.
Co2 added is 24/7..and then that hassle of using a big bottle for 240 gallons refilled every 2 or 3 months forever?..Why I notice many go back to low tech. Those who keep using it get great results I know..its a balance. My aquarium is fish no1. plants next. Why I have so many full grown Rainbows when most plant only tanks would have small tetras.
Although it's another topic on why I now am just adding fish half the size or less of the Rainbow fish.
Its up to the reader to try it. If they see results,good. If not? Then Co2 might be needed.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

1. No aquarium is a "closed system", especially one with fish. There is constant input of energy in the form of fish food, light, and water movement. Soil, once depleted of nutrients over a course of months or years, still retains cation exchange capacity which holds nutrients until plant roots absorb them.

2. Aquarium plants are not terrestrial plants grown hydroponically or in soil-filled containers. To say otherwise is to ignore freshwater ecology.

3. My 9 year old 40 gallon Walstad tank with cichlids, livebearers, and ancistrus has the following inputs: artificial light, artificial circulation, tap water, and fish food. Plants grow moderately fast, requiring trimming at least once a month. My 5 year old 75 gallon Walstad tank with large rainbowfish, livebearers, and ancistrus receives the same inputs. Plants usually require trimming twice a month.

Far from becoming "modeling clay", soil in my tanks is a chemically and biologically active component of the system. Before you dismiss soil in aquaria, you might want to try it for a few years.

Only someone who has never observed a healthy freshwater pond could say, "what you see ...water plants near the edge where runoff is great for plants..and farther out its just clay..hard wet clay."


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

OF COURSE IT'S CLOSED!..there is no 100% water change 100% of the time as in a healthy stream. It's not hermetically sealed ( as Johnny Carson would say!) but pretty much has no outlet also..why aquariums can get eutrophic.
We use natures ways..but artificially.
Hydroponics was invented to go around the soils thing..I myself never set one up because I'm repulsed by plants in white PVC pipes and motorized dips and whatnot.
If you carry a very light fish load?...the internet is full of people who say they've gone months with no water change..half a year,two years. Well,I know all that.
Its when you want a tank full of active-need-no-magnifying glass-to -see-them,fish and you want lush plants that you just cant depend on tap water.
So far after 45 years..only Iron Gluconate has been a tremendous boost,no harm to fish,and I still feed them 3 times a day and sometimes 4 for the granddaughters. They like to see the fish eat. Plus maybe one more as the wife also in the evening likes to see the yellow Ancistrus come out for sinking pellets.
Right now the mated pair of angels are guarding a clutch of going on three days of eggs.
Iron has not affected their love life..it might even be viagra for them..who knows?
Try it,it won't harm a thing.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

You don't understand the term "closed system".

Natural bodies of water very rarely have "100% water change 100% of the time". Instead, they have the same sort of water change we give our aquaria: varying amounts of fresh water on a variable schedule.

"when you want a tank full of active-need-no-magnifying glass-to -see-them,fish and you want lush plants that you just cant depend on tap water." No one is depending on tap water. In my aquaria I depend on the inputs of tap water, fish food, artificial light, and artificial water circulation, and modest artificial water changes (using tap water) combined with a managed biological system including a soil substrate. One common input of energy that I do not use is a heater.

My 75 gallon houses 9 rainbow fish ranging from 3.5" to 5" in length, about 30 platies, 8 buterfly goodieds, 3 ancistrus, 2 gold barbs, 5 corydoras, and an unknown number of Neocaridina shrimp. I don't need a magnifier to see any of them and they are quite active. The vallisneria will grow leaves in excess of 30" if I don't trim it.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

And your pumping CO2. i'm not warming the Earth!..lol. I'm low tech (but high effort!) and getting explosive growth out of E.bleheri that as I said..for over a year..it would grow maybe 4" leaves..and die back. I once just trimmed all off but the bud. Right now it has 12" leaves,3" wide and all that since late November and its still going. Even that bunch of no ID plants I posted as golden something? You can easily see its larger and more color than when I posted the photo of Nesaea (sold as..but also looks like many a photo of Ammania gracilis,but no doubt many of those photos are wrong) and that was what? 2 weeks ago? No Co2 and one water change in that time. I think even my Bolbitis is pulling through. 

All that and the only change is Seachem Iron.
My LFS store guy kept hammering at me "IRON,iron,iron." Obvious he would know we have high quality water from Yosemite,his living depends on it. Iron the missing ingredient...IG.

Try it. Might do wonders in a dirt tank. I remember in the 80's German aquarists in Tetra booklets also stressed how important Iron is...the photos of Cryptocorynes in reddish mud was proof they said. Remember they used to sell that? Then when Amano got going..red soils fell out of fashion.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Did you read my posts? All my tanks are Walstad tanks, that means no supplemental CO2. I manage natural CO2 absorbed from the air and produced by organisms in the tank with conservative water circulation and lighting schedule.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

No,I'm new. I thought everybody was doing Co2. Are you growing the Monte Carlo's and Baby tears? Bolbitis?..Are Ludwigia turning red? Quite a few plants that are not usually found submerged but for short times in habitat have exploded on the scene because Co2 keeps them from asphyxiating,unlike true aquatic plants.
I would love to see your plants. Inspiration. How about mosses? besides Java that I used to grow by the ton with no Co2.Others are not the same. My Christmas moss is just adapting to my tank from a "cup' it came in.
I hadn't really thought if Diane might be using Co2 to augment her tanks with the plants mentioned...but I have heard of monte carlo growing in non Co2 tanks..but rare.

I just found a reference to Tom Barr who had great things to say about Ferrous Gluconate and especially with Sword plants. I dosed just two caps last Saturday..and wont does again until maybe Wednesday. My Plants continue to grow like never before..or ever.


----------



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Ever thought it’s the gluconate that’s actually giving the growth boost? It’s a carbon molecule that plants can use. I dose potassium gluconate, and a few other simple carbon molecules like vitamin c, and fructose. It works fairly well but no replacement for co2.

The main nutrient for plants is usable carbon, co2, etc... iron is a micronutrient, meaning plants need little of it. You can overdose iron and it will cause problems for the plants, toxicity.


----------



## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

I just want to reply on the dirt thingy. Dirt, there are all types. Not just one brand. They contain different stuff. The guy on cec is right, the guy growing lenghty is right, they all right but you. I dont know why but I just had to reply. For example, I researched a soil to fit my plants needs, ph-peat, ca-dolomite, oyster shells, this is off top of my head, and many more. Things grew just fine, I also capped the dirt just fine. Clay is not better, I know there are high ups that argue it. Dirt can have same initial ammonia boost. There's more than one method, the video got me believing nitrates are bad, but I have no fish, how can I feed the bacteria. Different methods. I dont even know what ur arguing


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"I thought everybody was doing Co2."

". . because Co2 keeps them from asphyxiating,unlike true aquatic plants"

"I hadn't really thought if Diane might be using Co2 to augment her tanks with the plants mentioned..."

Stan510, please do some fact checking.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

I think STRUNG needs to do fact checking..because I've said numerous times,I've used potting soils or even dirt since the early 80's..in pots and pure dirt for a 5 gallon Betta tank.
MY POINT is..that it really isn't needed after all. Once you add fish,food,time..and iron and some other nutrients you may or may not need..its all liquid water column they absorb.
Soils seem great..because..as they release nutrients into the water column...they are liquid fertilizers. I think you all non horts have this idea that dirt just magically goes straight into the roots of the plants. Its whats dissolved.. water+ dissolved=food.
Dirt DOES work..but it will be depleted and you are back to adding this or that. No different then a guy with 3" of blue colored gravel in a 2 year old tank full of mulm,detritus,..and ROOTS. More roots= better absorption. Roots also depend on mycorrhiza bacteria to break down that poop or rotting fish carcase.
Not many horticulturists I notice are posting about aquarium plants. I had to remind a MAJOR youtube plant guy that Bolbitis doesn't "Looks sort of like a fern", but in fact it IS A FERN!..lol..related to the Polypodiums you see growing on tree's in shade all over the world really.
Go with dirt...but some people who have no idea..are going to get a huge dose of nutrients they can't handle and then you have the "movers" who will constantly stir up the layering with moving plants here or there,exposing more bare soils..all that.
Diane is not wrong..but people who do it,dont understand how its not forever. Same for people who claim VERY deep gravel beds will have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria..blah,blah.//More theory than fact. Another Argument!


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"Dirt DOES work..but it will be depleted and you are back to adding this or that."

Yes, you add fish food and tap water.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

And Iron,potassium,manganese...things for GH, for others..all the way down the line.
Right back to hydroponics. Nothing is forever. Soils get depleted..that's just basic soil science.
A dirt tank might get you off to a faster start than the old ways..but the old ways as I know it is too get a friend to give you a cup of his gravel..filled with millions or billions of bacteria to seed your raw water..and the use of conditioners. 3" of gravel for good aeration.. I hate sands.
I saw a Russian vid where he makes mud balls..soils and peat,then compresses it around the roots of his plants..they grow very fast and large quickly. But,when he pulled out the huge sword weeks or months later? The now depleted root ball had no roots..EXCEPT for some huge white mass of roots that had a grown a foot in every direction INTO THE BARE GRAVEL!..lol,see? Dirt is a one time fertilizer..slowly or quickly it depletes.
And when it does? Iron gluconate!


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"And Iron,potassium,manganese...things for GH, for others..all the way down the line."

Those nutrients and many more are in fish food and tap water. No matter how many times you repeat false statements it will not make them true.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

Iron gluconate is NOT in tap water. Funny..but I've been the one saying "Its all I need" and others went on about 17 secret herbs and spices needed by plants..So I can't win. I just tossed that bone because not everybody has the same tap water.

There are many ways to skin a cat,and two things can be equally true.

Go with you like. I want simple as can be ..gravel,good simple filtration,not reactor this or reactor that..quality lighting and IG..not Global Warming gass's in canisters that I have to drag to a weld shop whose owner will think your nuts doing that for a "fish tank?" as he laughs at ya. Dirt, Its looks natural,it sounds natural..it's just not really needed. Unless,you plan on never ever dosing. Then dirt and soils are of course better for weeks at least,rather than raw tap water.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Stan510 said:


> Iron gluconate is NOT in tap water. Funny..but I've been the one saying "Its all I need" and others went on about 17 secret herbs and spices needed by plants..So I can't win. I just tossed that bone because not everybody has the same tap water.
> 
> There are many ways to skin a cat,and two things can be equally true.
> 
> Go with you like. I want simple as can be ..gravel,good simple filtration,not reactor this or reactor that..quality lighting and IG..not Global Warming gass's in canisters that I have to drag to a weld shop whose owner will think your nuts doing that for a "fish tank?" as he laughs at ya. Dirt, Its looks natural,it sounds natural..it's just not really needed. Unless,you plan on never ever dosing. Then dirt and soils are of course better for weeks at least,rather than raw tap water.


I think we all understand what your theory is, but we also know that many people have done experiments or tried other methods with results that are not compatible with your theory. You are welcome to demonstrate why your idea is the best one. But just repeating it isn't likely to change anyone's mind.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

I answered the questions put to me. Most of them were repetitive. I did my best to give the same solid,not veering answer with some new twists.
After all these years...I tried them all,and I've seen many advanced aquarists say how natural and uneducated others must be not to use..... DLS trickle filters!..LOL.
Then,before that,the reverse undergravel filter was wonderbar!....Metal Halides...those and more had scientific graphs in all the fish magazines.
I started in November with the iron and things have just done a 180 on me...except for Vallisneria that seems not to care if you add anything to the water..but always something different in any tank.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

No, you haven't answered questions. You simply keep repeating the same erroneous statements over and over again. There are several different ways to establish and maintain a successful planted aquarium. But all require an accurate understanding of how they work which you have not demonstrated. And your grammar and punctuation have deteriorated until it is difficult to understand what point you are trying to make.

I am closing this pointless argument.


----------

