# Nitrate observation...



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

I don't know how many here had come across this:from apd . Pretty interesting, and certainly puts my mind at ease when I think I have dosed a little too much nitrate.

I gotta give you credit Tom, I know I sure as heck wouldn't add over 100ppm of NO3 to my tanks to see what happens. :!: Nice work.


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## jerime (May 23, 2004)

I found myself having a 50-70 PPM of no3 for quite some time, without any algae problems. never got to 100, not deliberately anyway...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Well this has some good implications for folks in Europe. They often have tap that has 40ppm NO3.

So I wanted to see how things would go with that much and dosing this and see what type of build up might occur.

Nice thing is that it will never induce algae, only effect fish and shrimp health first.

Same with CO2.
PO4, I think it has to be so hiogh that the KH is influenced negatively which can throw off the CO2 measurement.

But if CO2 is accounted for, then I have no idea how much PO4 will cause anything negative.

We have gone beyond 100ppm of K+ as well.
No issues.

Traces, I went to 10mls per 10 liters using Flourish.

These are the upper limits.

Now knowing this upper limits and that they do not induce algae, this allows us to work on the other end.

The lower limits.

By lowering the parameter of choice individually one at a time over a 3 week course, you can find the tank's individual need for that nutrient.

Once plant's /algae respond negatively, add a touch more that the dose required to induce the negative response.

That will give you a little over the limited amount.
Now go back and do the same process with PO4/K+/Fe etc.

In a couple of months, you will have the uptake range for that tank.

Example:

Add 5mls per 80 liters of Flourish 3x a week.
Note plant health for 3 weeks.
Add 4mls per 80 liters 3x a week for 3 weeks, note plant.
Add 3mls 3x a week for 3 weeks, note plant health.
Add 2mls 3x a week per 80 liters etc..............

Once negative plant health/growth/lull in growth occurs, then that is the limiting amount.

You do not need a test kit to determine this and it focuses on the dose, rather than the ppm range.

ppm ranges can be tested if desired, but be careful assuming test are accurate.

The above determination requires no test kits to tailor any tank's individual need.

It's fine if the level is higher, say 4 mls when you only really need say 2 mls, but at least you know about where the tank will become limited.

Similarily to the test above, you can also test the frequency of dosing.
Say add:

5mls 1x a week: for 3 weeks
2.5 mls 2x a week for 3 weeks
5/7th mls 7x aweek for 3 weeks

Or
5mls once a week for 3 weeks
5mls 2x a week for 3 weeks
5mls 3x a week for 3 weeks etc

3 weeks is a general good tiome frame, 8 weeks is better but tougher to maintain stable conditions over the course of the test for many folks.

Traces are the most difficult to determine to impact on plant health.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

All this appears to support what I do, which is not change the water often. I get my water by collecting rain water, and, while it does rain a lot in Mississippi, often we have dry spells that last for a month or more. The tap water is loaded with sodium bicarbonate here, and has a GH of zero and a KH of 9 to 11. I would rather use rain water. It is easier getting calcium levels up without the KH going through the roof. 

A good plant for checking out how low you can get nutrients is Eigeria densa, the good old Anacharis, which is in my humble opinion, much underrated. It grows rapidly in good light, and if you keep your CO2 levels up, other plants grow well with it. Eigeria can be a big CO2 user and can get the pH way up to 10 if you are not adding any. Many other plants can't grow at all at CO2 levels where Eigeria is still pulling CO2 out of the water. 

I started a tank recently with Eigeria as the main plant and several other species---a crypt, some floating H. polysperma, Hairgrass, Hemianthus, and the so-called Florida Crypt. I added nutrients in very small amounts and while I saw no deficiency symptoms in the other rooted plants, I was able to observe and correct nitrogen deficiency, potassium deficiency, iron deficiency, and a micronutrient deficiency (almost certainly Boron) in the Eigeria. 

The floating Hygrophila polysperma showed the iron, nitrogen and potassium deficiencies. The Eigeria is nicer as a start up plant than the Hygrophila because, if rooted, it is a lot easier to clear it out when it gets too crowded.


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Hey PK, you don't change the water often? In high light tanks too? How often do you do them?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

HeyPK said:


> All this appears to support what I do, which is not change the water often. I get my water by collecting rain water, and, while it does rain a lot in Mississippi, often we have dry spells that last for a month or more. The tap water is loaded with sodium bicarbonate here, and has a GH of zero and a KH of 9 to 11. I would rather use rain water. It is easier getting calcium levels up without the KH going through the roof.
> 
> A good plant for checking out how low you can get nutrients is Eigeria densa, the good old Anacharis, which is in my humble opinion, much underrated. It grows rapidly in good light, and if you keep your CO2 levels up, other plants grow well with it. Eigeria can be a big CO2 user and can get the pH way up to 10 if you are not adding any. Many other plants can't grow at all at CO2 levels where Eigeria is still pulling CO2 out of the water.
> 
> ...


Paul, you and I have been growing weeds for how long?
I think my point is that new folks can try and learn how to test and find the needs of their tanks if they so chose.

Now if they want, they dose can to blatent excess, often many times the needs of the plants with no ill effects.

Not much of an issue, unless you use a commercial trace mix and that can cost a fair amount.

So if you want to experiement, you can, either with or without test kits.
Or if not, you can simply kick back and dose excess and grow the weeds and do the scaping.

Egeria densa is a very competive fast growing weed.
These make good indicators, as does Riccia, Gloss, H ploysperma and other fast growers.

But many new folks have trouble knowing what these symtoms look like.
This method gives them an method to do it that's simple and does not require a test kit.

All it requires is that you dose a consistent amount over the given time frame.
I cannot give folks a good Fe/iron test ppm reading, but I can give them a rate of Fe dosing that will produce good growth, from there they can reduce the mls and find what their tank needs individually.

That's the goal of PPS but it relies more on test kits.
Either can use them or not.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

piscesgirl said:


> Hey PK, you don't change the water often? In high light tanks too? How often do you do them?


Usually once a year. if I have taken out a large volume of plants out, sometimes I do it sooner, like in a half year. I don't know if I really have to do these water changes. Perhaps I should experiment with a total dissolved solids meter and try to find out when I really have to.



Tom said:


> Now if they want, they dose can to blatent excess, often many times the needs of the plants with no ill effects.


I have gotten in the habit of adding K, Mg and SO4 in big infrequent doses. Same for calcium---ground limestone or even lime. Same for my micronutrient mixture---enough to allow the tank to get pretty well packed with plants. I am glad to hear Tom's results that say that massive overdosing with micronutrients does not hurt. On several occasions, I have seen where I had to add another dose of micronutrients. Symptoms always look like boron deficiency which looks a lot like calcium deficiency, but is cured by the micronutrient mixture.

Chelated iron does not tend to last too long, and so I prefer to add that more frequently. About 0.8 to 1 ppm Fe seems to be a good value to shoot for.

When I add large amounts of nitrate, a lot of it seems to vanish somewhere, not necessarily into the plants. Denitrification? All I know is that when I am sure there still should be nitrates present, I do a test and get near zero. Over and over again, I think, "All the nitrogen I have poured into this tank??? and the test says zero??? I have a LaMotte nitrate kit that I know is accurate.

If I had a regular regimen of nitrate dosing, I wouldn't have these problems. I just can't shake the habit of thinking there ought to be plenty of nitrogen still there.

Basically, I load the tank up with K, Mg, SO4, Ca, and micronutrients and don't worry about them running out for months and months. I play around with more frequent additions of nitrate, PO4, and iron. It sounds now like these also can be added in excess amounts too without any harm.

I should have photographed the various deficiencies in the Eigeria. I will be sure to do that if they show up again.


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

> Usually once a year. if I have taken out a large volume of plants out, sometimes I do it sooner, like in a half year. I don't know if I really have to do these water changes. Perhaps I should experiment with a total dissolved solids meter and try to find out when I really have to.


Wow! I would be curious to know the nitrate/tds in your tanks. I always start worrying about my tanks when I get to a week from a water change. I can't go past a week and a half without doing one (except in my grow out tank that only has snails in it).


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