# Beautiful El-Natural Stye Tanks



## ChrisC (May 15, 2006)

Hi,
I'm looking at setting up a 20gal planted tank. I am soon to purchase Diana Walstad's book, but am slightly put off by the fact that all the photos I've seen of them, the main concentration seems to be on cramming hundreds of plants in. Has there ever been an El-Natural tank say in Amano-esque style, with sparse planting and rolling landscapes?

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Yes, Chris, it is possible to have a landscaped "El Natural" tank! It does take more time and effort to landscape a low-tech tank than a high-tech tank because of the slower growth rate of the plants and because people generally start out with a large variety of different plant species to see which ones grow best. If you have the patience to wait until you see which species thrive in your tank, and then the imagination to work with them to create a pleasing aquascape, you can certainly have an "Amano-esque" low-tech tank.

I think the reason you see so many "jungle" tanks here is that the people who like "El Natural" often like the jungle look and/or prefer to focus on the health of the plants and animals rather than on aquascaping.

Have a look at littleguy's photo journal of his "Natural 2.5-Gallon" (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/20565-wet-thumb-forum-photo-journal-natural.html). If you scroll down you will see the tank evolve into (in my opinion) a lovely aquascape.

You could also have a look at one of my tanks (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/22800-wet-thumb-forum-my-newest-low-4.html?highlight=Newest+Low-tech+Aquarium). Scroll down to about the middle of the page I've linked, and look at the photo dated 11th January 2006. It's not a particularly lovely aquascape (I'm slowly learning those aquascaping techniques!), but you will see I've pruned the plants so that there is some open space and that the tank has a foreground (although in this picture the Glosso was going through a vertical period).

From Alex.


----------



## Longanlon (May 2, 2006)

You could also take a look at my main tank. Well, I cannot say it is a tipical El Natural, but still I am usung garden soil layer under my substrate. I also add CO2 and ferts


----------



## ChrisC (May 15, 2006)

Hi,
thanks for the replies both. I think that what I conceive as a really nice aquascaped tank (low cut plants, lots of moss and bogwood) - kinda like this










Is in itself a contradiction to the Walstad idea of using dense planting as the filtration? I think I will keep the 20gal hi-tech although a hybrid (like Longalon's) sounds tempting - very light filtration, lots of light, pressurized CO2 and topsoil substrate. I do have a spare 60ltr lieing around which I might convert into a true walstad tank though. Currently it's unused, and budget wise I doubt it would break the bank, as this is basically the shoppig list?

1) Lights
2) Substrate
3) Gravel
4) Plants

That cuts out alot of costs with CO2 and stuff, which, if I give it lots of time (I'm good with patience, I'm a reefer after all! ) should be able to give me a better idea of whether I want to go any further for the idea.

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

September '05 the "Kudos of the Month" on Wet Thumb went to Swanee for
this LOW TECH tank:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/images/swanees.jpg

I think the photo probably didn't do it justice, either.

Also, if you are registered (or want to) on Wet Thumb, the Gallery for El Natural will still be there until the end of May. Its worth tooling around.
-Jane


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Chris,

I would read the book first. It will help with your decision. The book may be in your library.


----------



## ChrisC (May 15, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Chris,
> 
> I would read the book first. It will help with your decision. The book may be in your library.


I will be buying a copy off amazon in a couple of other days. 

I'm having vissions of an open topped (<£50 budget) jungle cory species tank coming along.... 

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

This isn't exactly 'El Natural' as the substrate is peat and flourite... but it's low tech. Occasional use of Flourish tabs are the only source of ferts, no CO2, around 1WPG. Been close to self sufficient now for 4 years. Water changes are performed about every 3-4 months.










Good luck with your tank!
Giancarlo


----------



## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

If you're using CO2 and ferts, doesn't that preclude it from being a "Walstad" style (ie. very low maintenance, low tech, and low expense)?


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

rusticitas said:


> If you're using CO2 and ferts, doesn't that preclude it from being a "Walstad" style (ie. very low maintenance, low tech, and low expense)?


I tend to say "Yes!" If you use CO2 and ferts I think that it is no longer a "Walstad" style tank. I think the whole point of the method Diana discusses is to not have to add anything to your tank. The ocassional addition of hard water nutrients (in the form of gravel additives and maybe even Epsom Salt, etc...) might be considered acceptable (after all, you don't want the plants to die) however, for me, if you add CO2 and/or ferts, it's not Walstad-style. Others will disagree but I guess in that sense I'm a purist...

-ricardo


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

ChrisC said:


> Hi,
> I'm looking at setting up a 20gal planted tank. I am soon to purchase Diana Walstad's book, but am slightly put off by the fact that all the photos I've seen of them, the main concentration seems to be on cramming hundreds of plants in. Has there ever been an El-Natural tank say in Amano-esque style, with sparse planting and rolling landscapes?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris


You know, it's interesting, I find Amano-esque style tanks unattractive. I mean, no, they are beautiful, but totally artificial looking. I mean, it looks too much like a manicured lawn and that to me destroys the very beauty it's trying to create. I like the look of a jungle of plants growing the way nature intended. What's interesting is that I love a nicely manicured lawn and well designed landscape in a house.... Weird.

-ricardo


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I find it quite interesting that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## ChrisC (May 15, 2006)

flagg said:


> You know, it's interesting, I find Amano-esque style tanks unattractive. I mean, no, they are beautiful, but totally artificial looking. I mean, it looks too much like a manicured lawn and that to me destroys the very beauty it's trying to create. I like the look of a jungle of plants growing the way nature intended. What's interesting is that I love a nicely manicured lawn and well designed landscape in a house.... Weird.
> 
> -ricardo


I feel that jungle style aquariums with tons of plants generally have less "beauty" to them then a carefully aquascaped glossostigma lawn and they always come out worse in photos (probaby because it's not takashi amano taking them! ), however they do still have their aesthetic appeal.

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

gpodio said:


> This isn't exactly 'El Natural' as the substrate is peat and flourite... but it's low tech. Occasional use of Flourish tabs are the only source of ferts, no CO2, around 1WPG. Been close to self sufficient now for 4 years. Water changes are performed about every 3-4 months.
> Giancarlo


Giancarlo,

Thank you for posting picture of your beautiful tank. I love the forground carpet of rooted plants and all the fish.

Because it is not getting CO2 injection, I would definitely put this tank in the low-tech category.

What's also commendable is that the tank is 4 years old and looks this great!

Diana


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Thanks Diana,

Actually I think we talked about this tank in your forum some time ago when it was a little younger... been running well with the exception of some minor hickups about 6 months ago (necrosis and cyano), I ended up vacuming the gravel which is something I had never done before in this tank and a considerable one time dose of nitrates, I guess it was about time... Now it's back to shape and hopefully won't need me again till mid summer.

Good "seeing" you again!
Giancarlo


----------



## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Giancarlo,

your tank is gorgeous! Only 1 wpg? Wow - and your nuphar lily is so nice and red, and low-growing, too! PLEASE tell me you had to tussle with it (cutting off leaves that reached for the surface) to get it into that nice a shape!

Its really lovely! Thanks for posting your picture!
-Jane


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Getting folks to realize that they do not need high light is one thing, then getting them away from CO2 is another

For all the carrying on about algae, trimming, upkeep, whining about water changes, I think more folks that are doing high tech CO2 tanks need to convert and get off the gas.

It's easy. You don't have to remove the substrate you have either, nor give up many plants(I would not try Tonia though), you can use a nutrient rich substrate or not.......(simply dosing a small amount once a week addresses the needs and can be done well, no build up, since the growth rate is much slower and easier to eyeball). Eventually all substrates need a little help nutrient wise. Once a week dosing of 3-4 things vs a water change is a nice trade off I'd say. 

GP, you are not using the Excel on the tank correct?
I've managed to get a large number of CO2 users to try and use non Excel/CO2 methods in Singapore, they have many successful tanks now with ADA soil, or Flourite etc and the simple weekly or semi absent dosing.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Getting folks to realize that they do not need high light is one thing, then getting them away from CO2 is another


Sounds like an excellent Barr Report series! 

I would definitely offer to be part of an experimental control group...


----------



## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Here are my low-techs, no CO2, low light, almost no fishfood, a pinch of PMDD once or every other week. The 29-litres tank was placed in a window:

IKEA-vase with IKEA-lamp, a pinch of boiled Hagen peat-fibres under the gravel, extra bicarbonate added each monthly or so wc:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1638.html

29-litres tank in a window getting direct sunlight, 1,5 inch old pottingsoil, 1,5 inch black 1-2 mm gravel:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1555.html
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1564.html
(The rotala didn't like the non-CO2-environment as you can se on it's dwarfed new growth, perhaps it would have been better with some bicarbonate as I have very low KH and didn't feed with fishfood = No carbon input)

60-litres, 15-watt Aquarelle, 1 inch topsoil, 1 inch Akadama+Plain English lake-gravel:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1539.html
(Extremely slow growth despite a pinch of PMDD every month or so, but I also almost never fed the poor fish and as I said have very low KH = No carbon input)


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

flagg said:


> You know, it's interesting, I find Amano-esque style tanks unattractive. I mean, no, they are beautiful, but totally artificial looking. I mean, it looks too much like a manicured lawn


Perhaps you should pick up ANW Vol. 1. Amano's early work was anything but manicured.

Also, Chomsky is an idiot.


----------



## defdac (May 10, 2004)

> Amano's early work was anything but manicured.


They were considered very manicured back in the days. They were considered pieces of art not able to function in the long run yada yada..

Today almost every aquascaper are beyond those books and manage to run the aquascapes and have proven they can be under extended periods of time.

I have yet to see a picture of a really nice and tight aquascaped/designed non-CO2-tank. Most looks like a bunch of plants, although there were some pretty non-CO2-tanks in the APC-contest:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/contest/index.php?action=viewall


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So what's a crappy plant?


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

defdac said:


> They were considered very manicured back in the days. They were considered pieces of art not able to function in the long run yada yada..
> 
> Today almost every aquascaper are beyond those books and manage to run the aquascapes and have proven they can be under extended periods of time.
> 
> ...


It's funny because I was reading NAW Vol 1 this morning over breakfast and Amano on more than one occassion describes a tank of his as a 'jungle'. But I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

I am also curious about what 'the long run' is. NAW Vol 1. has wild discus planted tanks that were over a year old at the time of the photo.


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Thank you Jane. The tiger lotus initially did send out floaters and I cut them back, but that was at the begginning of the tank. Once set up I really did not see the tank often and the floating leaves were left to shadow what's below until they themselves just rotted away... when I go in for a water change (4-5 times a year) I do remove any floaters from the lotus or banana plant but the bottom leaves have always been very low to the ground. In my 4WPG tank I have a much harder time keeping the mother plant low to the ground.... go figure! The only thing that is done on a more regular basis by people in this office is to remove floating plants for me and top off evaporated water. I suppose they may remove some floaters too from time to time...

Tom, I don't use Excel in this tank. The substrate was rather rich and I added around 120 fish to provide a little extra carbon and nitrogen waste. The first year of the tank was the more challenging, past the initial/usual filamentous algae stage, I did run into potassium deficiencies... then I removed the plants that were showing deficiencies and the problem was solved 

Here's a couple 'stages' of this tank from oldest to more recent... (I'll avoid showing the cyano stage as that is scary!)














































The photo in my previous post is the most recent one. The dwarf sagg was smothered by the cyano and I removed what was left to better vacum the substrate. It's slowly growing back though. Nothing happens fast in this tank 

Regards
Giancarlo


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beautiful! I'm so glad you showed development of your beautiful tank in this forum!

Diana
P.S. Nice Angelfish.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Gpodio, your tank is beautiful. I have attached a picture of my 90 gallon tank which has been set up since December. During the past couple of months since the last time I posted a picture at Wet Thumbs, I have fully stocked my tank with fish and have added some amano shrimp.

My substrate is 1/2 flourite, 1/2 gravel and my lighting is 2.4wpg. I use Kent fertilizers at half dose once a week, do water changes every 3 weeks and am proud to say,no CO2.

I do have a small algae problem but it is certainly something I can live with. Most of my plants are doing really well, but I am still struggling with some of them. Diana Walstad had told me, that with my setup, it is going to take time to find the right mix of plants that will work.


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

If you look at Wim's AGA presentation on the history of Dutch tanks from the 1940-1960's, none of those nice scapes had any CO2.

Many good scapers are not good photographers.
You can do similar scapes with carbon enrichment or not.
Takes longer to grow in, but the end result is more stable and very easy to care for.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Thanks Blang, it's true at times it's just easier to get rid of the plants that don't like your setup and try something different. Considering the amount of light you have I would say your tank may just need more plant mass, I often add floaters to help out during the first months.

Good luck with it
Giancarlo


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> If you look at Wim's AGA presentation on the history of Dutch tanks from the 1940-1960's, none of those nice scapes had any CO2.
> 
> Many good scapers are not good photographers.
> You can do similar scapes with carbon enrichment or not.
> ...


I wonder if anyone has tried using high-light/co2/ferts to grow a tank in quickly and once it nears the place they want it, stop co2, cut back lighting, ferts, etc., and return to "el-natural".

Seems like that would be the ideal way to aquascape if one wants to reduce maintenance and preserve the longevity of the tank's appearance once perfected.

Btw, got a link to that historical presentation you metioned?


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Hi Barry, I'm not sure as I have never tried to that extent, however plants do grow differently under different intensities and a sudden reduction of light may actually speed up the "race for the surface" as the plants attempt to reach shallower waters... I would think a reuction in photoperiod would probably have a more desirable effect as this should maintain the pattern of growth however reduce the amount of growth each day...

Just a thought..
Giancarlo


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You guys are assuming that natural planted tanks are low light, slow growing tanks. Mine are by south windows and get direct sunlight for a good part of each day during the winter time. I see pearling in all my NPTs when they're getting direct sunlight. Growth has slowed somewhat since the change of season means they only get indirect sunlight. Even so, I still need to pull and prune plants about twice a month.

This little hex I just set up at work is by a west window and gets several hours of direct sunlight in the evening. The plants are growing like gangbusters and are pearling with no added CO2 or water ferts.


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

banderbe said:


> I wonder if anyone has tried using high-light/co2/ferts to grow a tank in quickly and once it nears the place they want it, stop co2, cut back lighting, ferts, etc., and return to "el-natural".
> 
> Seems like that would be the ideal way to aquascape if one wants to reduce maintenance and preserve the longevity of the tank's appearance once perfected.
> 
> Btw, got a link to that historical presentation you metioned?


Yes to both, several folks on the APD about 8 years or so ago suggested the add CO2 then stop method.

I think it's a bad way personally, just be patient and grow the plants in.
They generally will look better and will be adapted to low CO2.

You can get the CD from the AGA for Wim's presentation.
Still the best plant presentation I've seen to date.

But there's always Ricky Cain 2007!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

defdac said:


> 60-litres, 15-watt Aquarelle, 1 inch topsoil, 1 inch Akadama+Plain English lake-gravel:
> http://www.defblog.se/picture/1539.html
> (Extremely slow growth despite a pinch of PMDD every month or so, but I also almost never fed the poor fish and as I said have very low KH = No carbon input)


Hi Def,

The 60L tank looks fantastic. BTW what crypt is that?

Regards

Stan


----------



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I just want to point out if Diana's forum is being carried on in the same tradition here as it was on Wet Thumb, this is not the place to debate low tech vs high tech or jungle vs Amano. This forum has always been a place for low tech people to engage with each other and not to have to defend their practices. People would find such discussion just as annoying as people making comments in the aquascaping forum that Amano is a big phoney! I can remember people getting upset in that forum for just such comments. I would say if you do not like the art of aquascaping, don't post on the aquascaping forum. I would hope people in this forum would adhere to the same courtesy.

Mr. Podio:

I am happy to see you are still out there! I have not read any posts from you in quite a while, here or any forum. Keep sharing those pictures!

One thing that did not get transfered over was the El Natural Gallery. It showed pictures of several peoples tanks. I still have pictures from Diana on my gallery page. Personaly, to answer Chris' question, I think you can have an aquascape in the "Amano Style" if you are creative enough. Much of it is design principals: how you lay out the plants. It is just different variables to deal with. Whether it be growth rate, lighting, whatever. Once you take these things into account all you need is a layout plan and some patience.


----------



## skylsdale (Jun 2, 2004)

> ...this is not the place to debate low tech vs. high tech or jungle vs. Amano. This forum has always been a place for low tech people to engage with each other and not to have to defend their practices.


Thank you, Robert.


----------



## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Jane in Upton said:


> September '05 the "Kudos of the Month" on Wet Thumb went to Swanee for
> this LOW TECH tank:
> 
> http://www.aquabotanic.com/images/swanees.jpg
> ...


 Thank you Jane for your kind words And you may be glad to know I am bored with Africans and am going to unload them and do the El Natural thing again :whoo:


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

banderbe said:


> Perhaps you should pick up ANW Vol. 1. Amano's early work was anything but manicured.
> 
> Also, Chomsky is an idiot.


Thanks for the tip, I'll have to check out NAW Vol 1...

As for Chomsky, well the beautiful thing about a semi-free society such as ours is that almost everybody is entitled to their own opinion, however misguided. It's quite clear that your parents never taught you good manners, so, allow me to enlighten you with these few words my mother always told me: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. It's close-minded people like you that make me hate this forum. It's a shame AB had to merge with APC.

-ricardo


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Hey Ricardo, glad to see you are still around. I think your 30g is an example of a "beautiful El Natural style tank!" I do hope you'll continue to share your experience and your photos! I wanna see the beautiful el natural 2.5 gallon too as I am starting one of my own! Stay with us!


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks Lee! Don't worry, I'll stick around, there're still quite a few people from AB here and this particular forum is here, so there's really nowhere else to go. It's just a shame that it has to be a part of APC.

In any case, I'd almost forgotten about the 2.5 gal. It's been settling on the windown sill in my living room with only the occassional top-off. It has started growing some thread algae which seems to happen to my tanks that are located in front of windows. I'll try to post a pic this afternoon. It's a real nice looking tank. The nitrite levels should be down by now so I can stock it, problem is, I have very little money for fish, so I don't know what to stock it with.... 

-ricardo


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

flagg said:


> ...allow me to enlighten you with these few words my mother always told me: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.


Nicely put!



> ...It's close-minded people like you that make me hate this forum. It's a shame AB had to merge with APC.
> 
> -ricardo


I thought you said if you don't have anything nice to say...... 

JK. I'm sure with time people will see the benefits of the larger community and put their differences aside... it's the members that make a forum, there should be nothing holding people back from making this place just as good...

Hi Robert, it's true I have been out of the scene for some time. Mostly due to the dark side (reefs) and of course life gets more and more demanding as the family grows... I've been participating in forums abroad where not only do I find the different approaches to managing tanks an interesting comparison, but the smaller community size allows me to keep up with threads easier with the little time I have available to do so. But I'm hoping to get back into the swing of things, we just moved into a new house out of the city and finally have the room for a tropical pond which is quite motivating. Hope everything is good on your end.

Regards
Giancarlo


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

gpodio said:


> I thought you said if you don't have anything nice to say......
> 
> JK. I'm sure with time people will see the benefits of the larger community and put their differences aside... it's the members that make a forum, there should be nothing holding people back from making this place just as good...


Ah, true enough.... my apologies, perhaps in my distaste of what's-his-name's comments, my emotions clouded over my own actions and statements.

I absolutely agree that it's the members that make a forum and that's one of the reason's I'm upset at AB being moved to APC. I never met any rude or disrespectful forum members at AB. Here, I have already come across a small handful of rude members, a sexist one and a disrespectful one. Hence my dislike of APC. But, I guess that's the nature of a large entity such as this one. Namely, that you're bound to get a greater variety of people.

-ricardo


----------

