# Boron deficiency, or calcium deficiency---or could it be nitrate excess?



## HeyPK

I have improved the picture of boron deficiency in _Hemianthus_.


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## Elohim_Meth

*Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram*

I guess, recovery was after adding boron?


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## HeyPK

*Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram*

Yes, It was after adding boron. Looking carefully at the two pictures, I see that in the deficient plant some of the branches were more badly affected than others, and these branches, while they grew about two internodes during the four days, had not improved leaf shape very much. The less affected branches started producing bigger, more normal leaves. I don't know why, but I seem to get boron deficiency frequently if I don't keep up with my micronutrients.


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## Elohim_Meth

*Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram*

It's all so tricky... I've gone through it so many times. Sometimes you are looking at your plants and thinking there is boron deficiency and adding more boron, and situation is improved, but not for long time... After a while you are facing again the same stunted growth, and adding yet more boron... And eventually you think that it is boron overdose rather than deficiency... In fact it might be calcium or CO2 deficiency.
I don't mean that you are wrong with adding boron. Just I personally would start from bigger side, would check first my GH and CO2 level, and then increase traces, not boron only but all together.


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## HeyPK

*Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram*

It has to be either boron or calcium. If I want to add calcium quickly, I add lime in small amounts while adding CO2 to keep the pH from going too high. If I want to add it more slowly, I add some ground limestone. The way to do it is to make sure there is enough calcium, and then, if you see stunted new growth or stubby roots, it has to be boron. For me, adding boron usually lasts for a long time. I don't change water very often, and I usually have to add some more boron after the tank has become fairly full of plants. Then, when the tank becomes packed with plants and the fish start having a hard time getting to where I put in the food, it is time to clear out most of the plants and change the water.


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## Zapins

*Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram*

Nice pictures! The boron problem seems similar to the Rotala macrandra boron deficiency I had. It looks nearly identical. On mine though the deficiency became severe and almost all the leaves seemed to curl downwards along the edges. So the edge of the leaf tucked itself under the main part of the leaf. Calcium deficiency seems to look different, more like someone just pinched the leaf in certain places and the rest grows normally for a while and then pinches off in another direction.

Very interesting stuff. I'd love to see more boron deficiency pictures since it is very uncommon to see photographs of it in aquatic plants.

I think low boron levels might be the reason Rotala mac. is considered a hard plant to grow. I think it is much more sensitive to boron deficiency then most other plants and may actually require slightly more boron then is normally available in the water supply or CSM+B mix.

The holes are from snails chewing away at the leaves not other deficiencies.


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## Elohim_Meth

Zapins, did you check CO2?


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## Zapins

Yup, the tank had CO2 dosed via reactor style.


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## HeyPK

I just got another boron deficiency picture, this time in an amazon sword. The small, distorted leaves of the sword are similar to the small distorted leaves of the _H. micranthemoides_ plant. Calcium deficiency is similar, but the distorted leaves have white patches or streaks you don't see with boron deficiency.


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## Jeffww

Can you ID this as a Boron deficiency and instruct me how to rectify it?


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## HeyPK

That could be boron deficiency in your _Ludwigia._ You could try a pinch (1/24 teaspoon, or thereabouts ) of boric acid per 10 to 15 gallons and see if there is any improvement. Otherwise, you could just dose your tank with the recommended amount of a commercial micronutrient mixture including boron.


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## freshyleif

Where do you buy boric acid?


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## HeyPK

> Where do you buy boric acid?


Drug store.


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## Jeffww

Thanks, it definitely was boron, I'm getting normal growth now.


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## HeyPK

Wow! that was fast!


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## Jeffww

My ludwigia grows about an inch a day. For the past few weeks the leaves have been coming out twisted. This time they are oval like they should be.


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## HeyPK

Jefww, What did you add to cure the deficiency, and how soon did you see a recovery?


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## Jeffww

Within a few days 3-5 days, new growth came out untwisted. I just hyperdosed CSM+B. I'm getting the problem again now. I'm assuming that the heightened boron levels did the trick for awhile but when I returned to normal dosage i'm getting twisted leaves again. 
I thought an excess of Ca was causing the deficiency and by adding a huge amount of B I could sap out the Ca. It didn't work. Recovered for awhile but didn't take up enough Ca.
Is orthoboric acid a good boron source? 

EDIT: Threw hazard to the wind, dosed with 8ml of 35g of H3BO3 dissolved in 500ml of water to raise my Boron it about .8ppm. Will tell you how things turn out. Might be awhile though, just trimmed the terminal buds on my indicator ludwigia.


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## davejt

Jeffww said:


> Within a few days 3-5 days, new growth came out untwisted. I just hyperdosed CSM+B. I'm getting the problem again now. I'm assuming that the heightened boron levels did the trick for awhile but when I returned to normal dosage i'm getting twisted leaves again.
> I thought an excess of Ca was causing the deficiency and by adding a huge amount of B I could sap out the Ca. It didn't work. Recovered for awhile but didn't take up enough Ca.
> Is orthoboric acid a good boron source?
> 
> EDIT: Threw hazard to the wind, dosed with 8ml of 35g of H3BO3 dissolved in 500ml of water to raise my Boron it about .8ppm. Will tell you how things turn out. Might be awhile though, just trimmed the terminal buds on my indicator ludwigia.


I'm curious, how did your experiment come out? I have had the same problems for some time. and looking for the elusive answer?

Is it OK to ad the boric acid in with the micro mix (CSM+B). Is it possible the acid is reacting with something in the CSM over time when stored dry and reducing its effectiveness?


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## darkoon

is this the boric acid that kills cock roaches???



HeyPK said:


> Drug store.


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## TonyVideo

(darkoon) YES but in a tremendously HIGH concentration. 

(davejt) CSM+B has Boron in it. That is the +B which is my understanding. 

If you have to add Boric acid use by weight 14 parts CSM to 1 part Boric Acid.


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## davejt

I should have been more clear. I does CSM-B already, but plants are deficient somewhere, I am pretty sure it is not Magnesium now, so I'm thinking Boron? maybe?

At any rate the real questions would be:

1. could my CSM+B be lacking in Boron do to: bad mix from factory, bad mix/uneven distribution here, age, reacting with something in the mix?

2. Can I mix additional Boron (boric acid) into my trace element solution without problems, I assume so as it is already in the CSM+B. But based on #1 above would Seachem Excel or Iron glucanate or any of the other Irons / traces change the efficacy of the Boron?

3. How much extra Boron would be appropriate? Another 14:1 jolt?

4. Any problems with excess Boron?

5. Any know water issues with Boron uptake? Water too hard? etc.

Thanks.


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## JeffyFunk

davejt said:


> 1. could my CSM+B be lacking in Boron do to: bad mix from factory, bad mix/uneven distribution here, age, reacting with something in the mix?


While all of those things are certainly possible, I'm pretty sure that the factory is smart enough to (1) have internal QA/QC procedures to minimize the release of a badly mixed product and (2) know before hand if even adding the B source would cause a problem. The kinetics of B reacting w/ other chemicals could be high enough to cause a problem over a substantial amount of time (i.e. years), but that reaction rate could also be caused by other things out of the manufacturer's control like improper storage (i.e. wet chemicals react much faster to things than dry chemicals). I have CSM+B mix at home and know that it may certainly be possible to get a "bad mix" since there are different particle size of the chemical mix, but without knowing or even being able to examine the individual solids in the mixture, this is just speculation and handwaving at best.



davejt said:


> 2. Can I mix additional Boron (boric acid) into my trace element solution without problems, I assume so as it is already in the CSM+B. But based on #1 above would Seachem Excel or Iron glucanate or any of the other Irons / traces change the efficacy of the Boron?


Without trying it myself, your best bet would be to just try adding the boric acid yourself and letting us know what the answer is. My guess would be yes, but don't quote me on that. Personally, i would be hesitant to add B in any form to the Seachem products due to the fact that boric acid is an acid and potential reducing agent (according to the Wikipedia entry). Why don't you post this question in APC's Seachem forum section and ask them directly?



davejt said:


> 3. How much extra Boron would be appropriate? Another 14:1 jolt?
> 
> 4. Any problems with excess Boron?
> 
> 5. Any know water issues with Boron uptake? Water too hard? etc.


Everything is toxic in large enough quantities. Check out the wikipedia entry on "Boric Acid" to see for yourself about its toxicity. According to all the posts here, however, the necessary amount of boron isn't very high. (If it was, then B would be considered a macroelement, not a microelement, and it's deficiency would have been known a long time ago, don't you think?) As for water issues, I would just add it to your aquarium and see what happens.

Boron chemistry is probably just less well known in general due to the difficulty in analyzing it (IMHO). My experience analyzing B in the laboratory is that B is a pain to analyze because it sticks to glassware like glue, making it very difficult to analyze (which is why I don't analyze it on my ICP-OES).


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## darkoon

haha, Boric acid is sold to kill cock roaches, you figure how poison that is...
Did you check your CO2 concentration? is it >30ppm? CO2 deficiency can also cause small twisted new leaves. If you're sure it is B deficiency, and don't want to mess with Boric Acid, you can dose more CSM+B to see if that helps.



davejt said:


> I should have been more clear. I does CSM-B already, but plants are deficient somewhere, I am pretty sure it is not Magnesium now, so I'm thinking Boron? maybe?
> 
> At any rate the real questions would be:
> 
> 1. could my CSM+B be lacking in Boron do to: bad mix from factory, bad mix/uneven distribution here, age, reacting with something in the mix?
> 
> 2. Can I mix additional Boron (boric acid) into my trace element solution without problems, I assume so as it is already in the CSM+B. But based on #1 above would Seachem Excel or Iron glucanate or any of the other Irons / traces change the efficacy of the Boron?
> 
> 3. How much extra Boron would be appropriate? Another 14:1 jolt?
> 
> 4. Any problems with excess Boron?
> 
> 5. Any know water issues with Boron uptake? Water too hard? etc.
> 
> Thanks.


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## OTPT

darkoon said:


> haha, Boric acid is sold to kill cock roaches, you figure how poison that is...


...very very low for fish and aquatic invertebrates, to the point of (practically) non-toxic.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/inf...sheets/leasttoxic/boricacid_borates_borax.htm

The toxic level for fish is 100 PPM.

B in CSM+B is from Boric acid. The amount of B from CSM+B you add for EI method 
is just about 0.05 PPM per 2 days. So, don't worry.

But anyone dosing CSM+B will have low chance to get B deficiency.
It's already quite high.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi OTPT,

Good information, thank you for sharing that with us! BTW, welcome to APC!


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## grshs_vny

I think my plants are boron deficient.First i thought it could be ca/mg def. since i have a gh around 4 but even after adding lot of gh booster condition improved but not for that extent.So am dosing boric acid now.what you think about it? is it boron or something else?
water parameter
gh----4d
kh-----2-3d
ph-----6.2-6.8


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi grshs_vny,

I also have very soft water and I have that show up from time to time as well. What are your nitrate and CO2 levels please?

-Roy


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## grshs_vny

Hi,I have nitrate around 25ppm,CO2 - i don't know .l broke my dropchekker 2day ago ,but am sure i have good concentration CO2 in my water.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi grshs_vny,

I had the same problem in one of my tanks a couple of weeks ago. I got busy and didn't do any ferts for about 4 days. I did a 50% water change, added enough Seachem Equilibrium to raise my dGH 0.5 degrees.


> Guaranteed Analysis
> Soluble Potassium (K20) 23.0%
> Calcium (Ca) 8.06%
> Magnesium (Mg) 2.41%
> Soluble Iron (Fe) 0.11%
> Soluble Manganese (Mn) 0.06%


Then I started dosing my macros along with CSM+B, extra Iron, and Flourish Comprehensive and the problem seems to be gone. The new leaves seem to be coming out "normal". To be truthful, I am not sure if it was the Macros, Seachem Equilbrium, CSM+B(oron), or Flourish Comprehensive that did the trick.


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## defdac

Me and a couple of other Swedes are having the same trouble, and the problem usually disappears if we lower NO3-levels below 5-10 ppm. I think it was kekon here at APC noticed this behaviour first:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/16377-my-plants-still-grow-deformed-9.html

I have this curling from time to time and I have Borax. Need help with how much of that to add though. Anyone?


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## defdac

(My new hypothesis to this problem is: Carbohydrate accumulation, Starch accumulation, Lignification problem, Boron loss by guttation - don't know how to experiment with these though..)


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## HeyPK

Boron loss by guttation? I never heard of that. Guttation is when plants extrude water. The 'dew' on the tips of grass blades seen in the morning after a cool night with 100% humidity is guttation water. I don't see how a plant could lose boron that way. I am pretty sure that boron deficiency only occurs when the plant can't get enough boron. 

Your Alternanthera picture looks like boron deficiency, but I think that you and Kekon are correct that problems can arise when nutrients are too concentrated. If it is true boron deficiency, it will go away and the plant will stay recovered for a long tine---many months--- when even very small amounts of boron are added. Boron should be kept below 1 ppm. Around .2 or .3 ppm is good. 

There seems to be contradictory evidence when it comes to the macronutrients, such as nitrogen. In algae free culture in the laboratory, I was able to grow a number of species of aquatic plants with quite high concentrations of macronutrients---42 parts per million nitrogen, for example. They looked healthy and grew rapidly. Terrestrial plants are routinely grown in hydroponic solutions with around 200 ppm nitrogen and they do fine. I have grown one aquatic plant, Elodea, again in algae-free culture, with as high as 100 ppm nitrogen. However, in the aquarium, it works best for me to start the plants off with very low concentrations of macronutrients. They seem to be much healthier if they are kept a bit nitrogen deficient, actually. Once the aquarium has a heavy growth, the plants are not affected by excess macronutrients.


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## defdac

Ole Pedersen on guttation of aquatic plants:
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/103/4/1369.pdf
I stumbled upon this old article about Boron loss via guttation, so this is highly speculative:
http://journals.lww.com/soilsci/Cit...of_Boron_From_Plants_Through_Guttation.4.aspx
You could argue that everything that is excreted from aquatic plants in a confined space like a tank can/will be reused so I think I can safely drop this speculation 8)



> with as high as 100 ppm nitrogen.


Ammonium or Nitrate? The curling doesn't seem to happen with ammonium, and also only in high lignin plants like Alternanthera and some Ludwigia species in soft water.


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## HeyPK

There is good evidence that even submersed aquatic plants actually have a transpiration stream---that they take up water with their roots and pass it out somewhere on their leaves. However, as long as there are trace amounts of boron in the water, it doesn't seem likely that they would become boron deficient.


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## grshs_vny

Yes guys lowering nitrate levels to 5-6 ppm really solves this curling issue.My ludwigia seems to be o.k now,i think the secret behind improvement after doing 50% water change is linked to lowering in nitrate concentration.Usually we think curling is mainly related to Ca,Mg,B and CO2 but it is more complex.


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## bsmith

After reading this great thread about a lesser known very frustrating defficency I am staarting to wonder about my polygonum Sao Paulo. For as long as I can remember the leaves have been curly and twisted in appearance. I first thought it was Ca but after dosing Ca and using gh booster to make everything kosher the problem still persisted. Now here is why I'm not just going to call it a day and call it B. I dose micros with flourish AND CSM+B so I'm double dosing B. What donyou think? Here is a pic. Ps. I have always wondered about the e aflame leaves too. Since there's not much info on them.


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## grshs_vny

Hi,bsmith i also had the same problem,initially i thought it is calcium since i have gh around 4-5degree so i raised it to more than 7 with not much improvement,then i added boron with other micros. and maintained optimum co2 concentration but still the same issue.I had no clues what's wrong with my plants ,but after doing massive water change & not fertilizing for 3 days my plants seemed like recovering .I noted water reading there i found the culprit .Now am doing few experiment to make certain it is indeed NO3.
IMO it is really difficult to to check NO3 concentration to 5-6ppm while adding potassium in the form of KNO3.
bsmith what's your water parameter?this nitrate problem occurs mostly in soft water.


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## bsmith

I can't even remember the last time I checked no3! . I will and report back in a bit. 

Thanks.


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## bsmith

Well after finally remembering that I needed to check my nitrates for you I did tonight. It is an API kit but still I believe my nitrates are in the 30 ppm range. 

I will try to lower them to the 5-10 range and see what comes up.


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## grshs_vny

You took a lot time mate.All the best


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## bsmith

All of the sao paulo looks pretty normal now though. The leaves are relatively straight and they arent growing downward. Its hard to find any info on the correct growth pattern of the plant though.


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## bsmith

grshs_vny said:


> You took a lot time mate.All the best


So what are your opinions on my higher nitrate levels and the appearance of a Boron deficiency?


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## oscarjamayaa

Nice, i would try to low N, Beacuse it seemed like B defficenci but .. we´ll se


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## Elohim_Meth

After many months of struggle with stunting of my R. macrandra I believe I've found the solution at last. I tried boron and actually overdosed it. I was sure it wasn't Ca or CO2 deficiency because GH was 6-7 and my dropchecker showed 40-50 ppm. Hard to believe, it was CO2 after all (I guess). When dissolved in water, it takes long time for plants to absorb it (even if there is plenty of it), much longer than for emerged plants to absorb atmospheric CO2. So I splitted the photoperiod into 3 parts of 2 hours with 3.5 hours dark periods between them. Dark periods would allow plants to replenish their inner reserves with CO2, after my plan. And it worked. Stunting has gone. I've even decreased CO2 a bit, and lowered my MH fixtures.


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## darkoon

Elohim_Meth said:


> After many months of struggle with stunting of my R. macrandra I believe I've found the solution at last. I tried boron and actually overdosed it. I was sure it wasn't Ca or CO2 deficiency because GH was 6-7 and my dropchecker showed 40-50 ppm. Hard to believe, it was CO2 after all (I guess). When dissolved in water, it takes long time for plants to absorb it (even if there is plenty of it), much longer than for emerged plants to absorb atmospheric CO2. So I splitted the photoperiod into 3 parts of 2 hours with 3.5 hours dark periods between them. Dark periods would allow plants to replenish their inner reserves with CO2, after my plan. And it worked. Stunting has gone. I've even decreased CO2 a bit, and lowered my MH fixtures.


that is an interesting discovery, has anyone else had similar experience?


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## HeyPK

While a number of genera of aquatic plants have been shown to be able to accumulate CO2 in the dark (see Keeley, Jon E., 1998. CAM Photosynthesis in submerged Aquatic Plants, Botanical Review 64, #2, pp 152-158, available online), Rotala is not among the ones listed. However, Rotala may not have been examined for the ability yet. Just the same, it seems odd that not enough CO2 would cause distorted smaller leaves. Are you sure you have ruled out nitrate excess?


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## Elohim_Meth

HeyPK said:


> While a number of genera of aquatic plants have been shown to be able to accumulate CO2 in the dark (see Keeley, Jon E., 1998. CAM Photosynthesis in submerged Aquatic Plants, Botanical Review 64, #2, pp 152-158, available online), Rotala is not among the ones listed. However, Rotala may not have been examined for the ability yet.


Well, even if Rotalas are not CAM-capable, the dark periods are not complete darkness actually, there is light from window and room overall lighting, and maybe that's enough for plants not to close the stomata. Probably a good idea would be to have some additional light for the purpose.



HeyPK said:


> Just the same, it seems odd that not enough CO2 would cause distorted smaller leaves.


I believed it was a common knowledge... I've seen it myself more than once and read several accounts, especially when a CO2 tank is emptied and not get refilled in time, you can see distorted and small leaves on top of the stems.


HeyPK said:


> Are you sure you have ruled out nitrate excess?


I didn't change NO3 dosing. I don't like the idea of lowering nitrates because when I do it my toninas are starting to dissolve.


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## HeyPK

> I didn't change NO3 dosing. I don't like the idea of lowering nitrates because when I do it my toninas are starting to dissolve.


That is weird! That does not sound like nitrogen deficiency. Could it be potassium deficiency?


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## Elohim_Meth

Update. After temporary improvement things went even worse. Next I tried to cut nitrates, but after 3 days R. macrandra started to melt and die off. Maybe I cut NO3 too low. Now I think I should add N through ammonium nitrate and urea.


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