# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Fluke treatment in tank---Prazipro



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Hi all,

I'm posting my fishy question here since I really appreciate and trust the advice I get from you all.

I had brought up the issue of treating with Prazipro in my tank earlier, but the goods are in, and I think I'm about to move on it. I think my 10g is infested so treating the fish individually wouldn't work for long, I don't think, if there were still eggs in the tank. It also has many snails and shrimp. So I found a scientific paper (unrelated to aquarium keeping) where praziquantel was administered to SNAILS







to see if it would eradicate schistosomes that cause human disease. Anyway, the snails, of course, endured the treatment just fine. So I feel it's safe for snails. Now for shrimp, I'll test it on one cheap ghost shrimp (sorry to devalue your life, Mr. Ghostie) in a one gallon tank.

I considered using a half dose first but from reading, sounds like it's best to go with the full dose and to not treat again. I'm not sure how this will work in a natural tank as opposed to a clean, vacuumed tank since the instructions do suggest adding it to clean water, or to clean the tank first.

Betty, Miss Fishy? I know from previous posts that you have used this drug before. What do you think?


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Well, I hope this experiment can help someone in the future. I added a little more than a dose to a cup of tank water with a shrimp in it and let him steep for an hour. He did fine, as far as I could tell; dumped him back in the tank later and he started eating right away.

So I added a full dose to the tank a while ago







. So far the only thing that worries me is that the MTS are all coming to the surface of the gravel. That doesn't seem good; maybe I was wrong to assume that just because that species in the study survived prazi in their food that they can be submerged in it.?.

I'll let you know after a day or so how everyone did---including the fish, who should at least quit flashing and looking exhausted.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I haven't seen anything definitive on snails. My ramshorns have lived thru prazi. I recently heard of a MTS that survived a tank being nuked with bleach so I'd bet they'd be fine. Dunno about the shrimp.

So do you know which kind of flukes you're treating? I think it's gill flukes who lay eggs, so to break the lifecycle, you'll need to treat again on day 4. then add carbon on day 7 and do a partial water change if you want.

Prazi kills flukes pretty fast from what I've read on it, so after some initial irritation for unhappy flukes, the flashing should chill out pretty soon.


----------



## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

All the snails (Red and tiny Ramshorns, Giant Pond Snails and some sort of small pond snail) in my tank survived the Praziquantal. I don't know if shrimp would, but the Flatworms and Cyclops in the tank seemed fine. 

The instructions on my bottle of Praziquantal said to dose only once but the gill flukes came back in a couple of weeks. After trying it again and having the same thing happen, I ignored the bottle's instructions and followed the instructions on a website about treating fish with Prazi (sorry, I can't remember which one). 

I hope it works out OK for everyone in your tank, javalee!

From Alex.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think Miss Fishy is right-on about importance of doing more than one treatment. You can assume that any parasite (worth its name) will have laid eggs and that these eggs will hatch at some point after the first treatment.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the quick responses! I'm glad to say that there are no dead critters in the tank today!---hopefully just some dead flukes.

The MTS, bladder, and pond snails are fine, and the shrimp all appear to be fine as well. The barbs had started doing some strange "chewing" motions after I added the prazi. I wonder if they were feeling the flukes releasing from their gills or what. (With all the darting and flashing and scratching and panting at the surface, I assume they are gill flukes.)

I found the instructions on the prazipro to be a bit cryptic about treatment duration and such. It seems to say that one should allow the stuff 6 days in the water to kill off eggs and flukes but says that one can repeat the dose at 4 or 5 days. If in 4 days, the shrimp and snails are fine, then I think I will add another dose, Miss Fishy. I could see how they would come back if one doesn't.

It was especially vague about what animals can tolerate the stuff and since a thorough Google search turned up nothing on shrimp and prazipro I felt someone needed to find out.

The fish aren't scratching this morning, but they're still at the bottom a lot. I was hoping that flukes may sole cause of my fishes' discomfort, but the dissoved organics from the soil may still be playing a role in making them hang at the bottom. If they aren't better soon, then on to replacing the soil after my jar test. At least they won't be fighting DOC _and_ flukes anymore.

Thanks y'all!


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

OK as soon as I posted my last comments, I looked up to see one of the unhappy guppies scratching! It's been 17 hours since I medicated the tank! I put just under a 1/2 tsp in my 10g tank since I know there aren't a full 10g in there. This is where my concern for the "dirty" natural tank kicks in. I wonder if since it recommends adding the prazi to clean water or after a water change, that means that all the mulm and dead plant matter, etc in this tank keeps the stuff from working effectively. Or are flukes causing the flashing? Hmmm. I may try a dip in a cup of clean, dechorinated water next.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dear Javalee,

I think that a parasite killer would work no matter how much organic matter was in your tank.

Because the Prazipro isn't working, I would rethink your assumption that it is gill flukes. I've seen fish with Ich scratch their gills. Although the people in the El Naturale forum are definitely well-informed, you might want to go to Fish-Vet or people that deal more with fish diseases.

In my opinion, a lot of fish sold in aquarium stores are carrying disease. It didn't use to be like that.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So what's your water temperature?
How fast fluke eggs hatch is temperature dependent. At tropical temps, dosing again at day 4 should be fine.

You have to remember that there will be damage to the gills because the flukes latch into the gills with hooks to feed. The "strange "chewing" motions" you describe are most likely them trying to clear their gills. and the gills are where gas transfer occurs, so lethargy is possible from that. Do you have plenty of airation going on for now?

Lack of flashing is good, cuz it means to me that nothing's there irritating them enough to need to scratch.

So are you seeing any excess slime (which would look white), or white spots, or yellow sheen (a flashlight makes that show up easier)?


----------



## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

javalee, I'm sorry to hear your fish are not doing as well as you had hoped. It's good that the snails and shrimp are fine though. 

When I used Praziquantal to treat my Golden Medakas for suspected Tapeworms and Gill Flukes, they started passing dead worms a few hours after I added the medication and by the second treatment their stomachs were back to their normal size, but it took them two weeks after the final treatment to stop flashing and breathing fast. I don't know whether this meant that Gill Flukes were not the cause of the flashing and fast breathing in the first place or whether it just took a while for their gills to heal. Ther more I read about Gill Flukes and how quickly Praziquantal kills them, however, the less sure I am that my fish had Gill Flukes at all. 
What is the history of your fishes javalee (sorry, I can't remember at the moment)? Where did you get them? How long have you had them? How long did they appear disease-free for before they started flashing etc.? Have they all always lived in the same tank, or have you added some more fish from another tank? 

I hope they start improving soon! I really hate it when fish get sick because I don't know much at all about fish diseases or how to treat them. I think I was just very, very lucky to get disease-free fish before I got the poor Golden Medakas. Before the Golden Medakas all I had to do was to provide plenty of good food, a healthy, stress-free environment, make sure no diseases were introduced into the tank, and I could enjoy my fish. 

From Alex.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks again to everyone for being so helpful







! Here's the update: No more flashing at all today!







---even when I fed them and after I changed water (this was when the poor barbs went nuts scratching before). The shrimp and snails continue to be fine.

However, I noticed that yesterday the fish did NO swimming around at all, oddly enough. I started to worry because they weren't that sick before the prazipro. This morning, the same thing, resting at the bottom and not moving much at all. So I changed about 20% of the water and added carbon to the filter. Man! they perked up right away and started swimming about and nibbling on algae, chasing each other, normal fishy behavior with NO flashing. So nice to see them feeling better. I don't know why the prazi made them feel worse. Perhaps prazi plus the DOC was too much for them, or perhaps there was some reaction with all the mulm and such in the tank? My betta, however, is doing fine in his prazi still today in his clean tank.

Now, the barb and the guppy that were sickest before still go to the bottom to rest(?) occasionally but they look much better overall. Betty, they have no visible lesions, mucous spots, or signs of velvet.
Maybe their gills need to recover like y'all mentioned, or maybe the DOC have done damage? I don't know; I'm not smelling the alcohol smell anymore and I've been doing water changes every 2 weeks for 2 months now. And, oh, yes Betty, I do have aeration going; these guys haven't been able to do without it. In fact, one night the filter quit aerating for some reason, and I lost my guppy fry.

I think I'll just do another dose in 3 days, and then do water changes the next day since the prazi does work right away, as you mentioned Miss Fishy. These flukes have been around since I first bought my fish a year ago; it just got worse when I revamped the tank and was doing lots of water changes that must have left the fish vulnerable. Also, my new guppies arrived healthy, and didn't start flashing until 3 days later so I think that was another clue that this tank was infested. Miss Fishy and Diana, yeah, I buy from the chain stores usually, and I think they are often coming in with yucky stuff. One of the new guppies had a bent spine and TB so I euthanized her right away







.

My non-planted 29g has flukes too; the angel, barb and rams only seem to flash when they've had stress like a large water change. I may not need to treat them since they seem to be doing great otherwise.

Betty, my temp in this tank runs a bit high---82 or 83 degrees usually. I bet this temp could boost any parasite population, you think? Maybe I should get the baseline temp down for good?

Well, this was a success overall. No deaths from Prazi, no more flashing. Now I guess I'll have to keep watching as my jar-soil-test is going on, and then see if the DOC from the soil is still a problem.

I'm going to dip in prazipro every new fish I aquire from now on!


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I'm glad to hear everyone came thru it ok. That's awsome!









Higher temps would definitely speed up the lifecycle.

The guy that used to run the Dallas Aquarium used a 3 hour dip on new fish. I either do that or do two doses of prazi while they are in QT.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

The fish are even better today. The guppy that was resting on the gravel half the day hasn't done that once today! An amazing difference.

Betty, thanks for the dip tip







! I see what you're saying now about the temp; so maybe speeding up the lifecycle would be a good thing while treating, like with ich.

I added the second treatment today, and hope they will react better and that I can leave this one in longer since I did water changes and carbon yesterday. I'm thinking that the nasty compounds from the soil may be gone by now and that they will be ok, judging from how well they are improving.


----------



## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

That's so great that all the fish are getting better! 

You mentioned that the fish were very quiet after adding the Prazipro. Each time I treated my Golden Medakas, the same thing happened. Not only did they stop swimming around much but they barely ate anything for a couple of days after the treatment. 

From Alex.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Sorry, I lost my internet connection for a few weeks, but thanks for the response, Miss Fishy. This treatment was not as successful in-tank as I thought. A few days after clearing the last 5 day treatment out with charcoal, they started scratching and resting on the bottom again!! I'm not sure where I went wrong, but I'm gonna try again and really follow the directions this time, meaning doing a water change before adding the meds, and adding the full dose, and leaving it in until it dissapates on its own. I'm quite sure it's flukes though, because during the treatments they perked up, quit resting on the bottom and looked much better. I did note that the instructions for pond prazipro advise cleaning the pond of leaf litter, etc before dosing. An el natural tank is more like a pond (mine is probably full of dying bits of plant, etc) so I'll do a better cleaning this time.


----------



## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

I'm sorry that your fish are worse again. It seems strange that the flukes are back since you added two lots of medication which should have killed the eggs. I wonder why the packet of the Prazipro advises cleaning tanks/ponds before adding it. Is it really because the medication is less effective in a tank containing a lot of organic matter, or because conventional wisdom says that leaf litter/mulm/fish droppings make for a dirty, unhealthy tank and therefore weakened and sick fish? 

Diana's suggestion of trying Fish-Vet or something similar sounds like a good idea to me. 

From Alex.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Well, thanks to you, Miss Fishy and Diana, I checked-out FishVet. I guess I shouldn't have been so sure about the flukes as there seem to be other parasites that cause similar symptoms. While the Prazipro is IN the water they definitely get better, but as soon as I remove it, they start scratching and going to the bottom all over again. The Prazipro must be just enough to inhibit, but not kill, the culprit. Although they don't show any outward signs of infection it could possibly be Velvet or Chilodonella. They mention a heat treatment for Velvet. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try that before drugs. Thanks again to everyone for the advice. I hadn't seen the FishVet information prior to Diana's recommendation. It's always good to have more sources for info.


----------



## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

What's the web address of that site?

I feel your pain. A few years ago I had a black molly that was suffering from something. I tried everything, looked through tons of books, websites, etc. Every time I thought I knew what the disease was, I treated with a new medicine but to no avail. I did evertyhing "by the book". Nothing worked.

Then I gave him to a guy at my LFS for awhile. He was a Discus nut with hundreds of tanks and was confident he could cure the disease. Sure enough, four weeks later he brought him back looking better than ever. I was so happy. I thought I had this thing licked. Unfortunately after a couple weeks in my tank the molly developed the problem again. Back then I was using an undergravel filter and had a real beginner's tank. Not a terribly healthy ecosystem. In retrospect I believe that was the ultimate cause of the problem. In a healthier tank, the molly probably could have recovered on his own.

Long story short, it can be real difficult to diagnose many diseases, and I suspect there are many that aren't classified in the hobbyist literature, let alone easy to treat. Also, sometimes a pristine environment may be all that it takes to allow the fish to recover naturally. You have a beautiful, healthy looking tank, and I really HATE to say this, but that pine bark (?) in the soil may be the one ***** in the armor that's giving the parasites (?) a foothold. If you rebuilt the substrate, you could at least rule that out and sleep easy knowing you were at least providing the best possible environment.

Good luck and I wish you success.


----------



## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, littleguy. I looked at two websites after doing a google search for "fish-vet:" http://www.aquaculture.bz/fish-disease/index.html and www.fishvet.com.
I've found the university articles to be really helpful since you know you can count on scientists. But, yes, it's a mystery. I checked for signs of velvet with sunlight in the background and with a flashlight and I can't see _anything_ abnormal on the outside of these fish. I must say, however, that since it's come back, they aren't as bad as they first were. I imagine I will eventually get the help I need to redo this tank, but I'm not as worried about the wood decomposition anymore since I can no longer smell it. Besides, the female guppy is very spry so the water quality can't be that bad. I'll be doing more reading on the single-celled parasites now. I'll let everyone know if I can make a diagnosis and a cure. Thanks for the support; it is so frustrating being unable to diagnose and help poor,sick fish.


----------

