# Sticky  Method of controlled imbalances discussion



## Christian_rubilar

Well, GDA is easy to eliminate.
It's appears when there is an imbalance related to Po4 and Ca.
If Ca is high this is because you probably had added too much. 50% water change solves it. And reduced the quantity next time.
About Po4, Water change helps if the new watter hasn't Po4. Reducing the ppms you add helps a lot. I think that 0.5 is enough unless you have a lot of microsorums, marsilea crenata, etc.
This two items should be in your mind in order to avoid a new GDA problem.
Finally, to eliminate it you should use the "generic protocol of the Kno3". Stop fertilizing at all. Change 50% of the water. Add every day for 1 week 1 gram of Kno3 every 50 gallons until GSA appears. If after one week the GPA doesn't appears, then repeat it but 2 gram every 50 gallons and so on.
I know that in this forum you guys have very different ideas about how to deal with GDA. This way to solve it was sucesfully used hundred of times during the last three years.
You can find more info about this in this thread / article:
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436
You know, when a theory doesn't work, then this theory should be abandoned.

*Edit note:* For full English translation, please refer to here, starting on post number 214.


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## goldfishes

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

How do I translate this article? My high school Spanish isn't good enough, and I don't know how to use google translator. Thanks.


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



sewingalot said:


> How do I translate this article? My high school Spanish isn't good enough, and I don't know how to use google translator. Thanks.


You go to www.google.com, click on languaje tools. Then you copy paste the paragraph and select from spanish to english. 
If you understand some spanish better because the technology is not good enough yet.
I suggest you start reading the chapter "el metodo de los desequilibrios controlados", because the beginning is an explanation about myths and how to tune up properly the aquarium,
Regards


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## Newt

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

Very interesting article Dr Pez.
I was unable to get the translation when the text got to the info on the Philips PLL-840s.
Do you know what I should do so that I can read it?

EDIT: Never mind. I re-did it and was able to get it. A lot is lost in translation.


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## goldfishes

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

Thanks for the help in the translation. This makes a lot of sense to me all the sudden. I have very hard water and was dosing Po4 in excess to get rid of Green Spot Algae. All the sudden, I am hit with Red Algae and major Green Dust Algae. I have now done a 50% water change and am going to try to implement "Method of Controlled Imbalance."


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## Newt

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

I read it and have a few questions about it that may be translation issues more than anything. Just cant do it right now.


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

Well, the main idea behind the MDC is to reach the GSA for three reasons. 1) close to GSA no other algae can bloom 2) the amount of Kno3 your aquarium needs to reach the gsa is the real consumption of your aquarium per week. That's the amount you should use for fertilizing. 3) If you have any algae, if you look for gsa, the algae stop bloom or die.
Fertilizing in this way makes that is you test your water there is never more than 2.5 ppm of No3.
In my opinion, rigid rules like 10.1.15 makes no sense, diferents aquariums have diferents balances: 20.1.15, 5.5.15, or whatever.

The idea about to work only about Kno3 is because if you work with too many other variables, then you don't know how to induce a solution. And if you solve it, you don't know why it happend.

In the other hand, the idea is to use your plants as the filter of your aquarium.

The MDC is only a frame, as soon as you understand it you can use any fertilizing method you want without algae. At the forum of www.drpez.com many people use PPS or EI, etc.

In this thread you can read a little more (in english) about the MDC, this is an unfinished debate with Tom Barr (plantBrain):
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=307546&page=2&pp=25
Regards


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Newt said:


> I read it and have a few questions about it that may be translation issues more than anything. Just cant do it right now.


Oki, as soon as you have some time I'll answer them.
Regards


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## goldfishes

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

I am off to read more. You know, if you had time, it would be cool to have you do a write up on the basics of MDC. It would really help the newer people (like myself).


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## Newt

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

Christian_rubilar, I hope you see this post.

I have read the info on the link you provided and I found it not only interesting but I share many of the same ideas as you. However, I do have some questions so that I can be sure I am understanding you correctly.

I need a translation for the following words as these did not translate:
- Coadyudantes
- Tapizantes
- Acuarismo ( I think it means the aquarium hobby)
- Sales (this seemed to be used in a couple/few different ways)
- GAP - green algae point or what you mean by point
- Siguientres

I do realize you want use to dose KNO3 to a point a which green spot algae is the only one left. Is this correct? What then?
In the beginning of your article you say "....seen throughout this work does not recommend the use of potassium sulphate....". However, a few pages in to the article you say "With regard to potassium, all indicate that this has an important role in halting the progression of sevral types of algae". and "....one could argue in principle that the use of potassium in the .....is one of the key variables, or to avoid an explosion of algae or to control them. Potassium is an alkali earth metal and this could be why EI dosing works (for most) as there is so much K2SO4 that the algae cant survive as little is consumed by the plants and a 50% water change will not flush out enough to prevent the levels from continuing to rise over time.

I really want to try your suggestions but it would be helpful to have a better guide, or is it as simple as dosing KNO3 at 1 gram per 200 liters three events per week. This equates only ~3 ppm per event.

Lastly, when talking about the amount of light per liter are you simply taking the given tank size or the volume of water actually subjected to the light. For instance, I have a 75 gallon tank BUT this is when measured on the outside. Once it has substrate and decorations in it the actual water is about 60 gals that has light on it. Several gallons are in the substrate and do not recieve light and the glass is 1/2 inch thick, etc.

Thanks, Newt


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Newt said:


> I do realize you want use to dose KNO3 to a point a which green spot algae is the only one left. Is this correct? What then?


The main idea is that when you reach the GSA other algae die or stop bloom. If you see, there are several pictures with the most common algae, there are specific protocols to deal with them with the "generic Kno3 protocol" we are talking about.



Newt said:


> In the beginning of your article you say "....seen throughout this work does not recommend the use of potassium sulphate....". However, a few pages in to the article you say "With regard to potassium, all indicate that this has an important role in halting the progression of sevral types of algae". and "....one could argue in principle that the use of potassium in the .....is one of the key variables, or to avoid an explosion of algae or to control them. Potassium is an alkali earth metal and this could be why EI dosing works (for most) as there is so much K2SO4 that the algae cant survive as little is consumed by the plants and a 50% water change will not flush out enough to prevent the levels from continuing to rise over time.?


In this thread I debate with Barr about it:
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=307546&page=2&pp=25
When I mention potassium I don't mean potassium sulphate. You know, salts always have a partner: sulfate, chloridre, etc. I think that the best is to add two good ones instead of sulfate. Some friend from Chile use potasa 15-0-15 and works great!!
It's not a matter of high dosis, I believe that using the Kno3 protocol you can reach the real consumption of your aquarium and avoid algae bloom and have exccelente plant growth rate.



Newt said:


> I really want to try your suggestions but it would be helpful to have a better guide, or is it as simple as dosing KNO3 at 1 gram per 200 liters three events per week. This equates only ~3 ppm per event.


This is a missunderstanding. The main idea behing the MDC is that rules like 10.1.15 doens't work. So I propose to use the generic protocol of Kno3 to induce gsa (algae control) and like a way to find the real consumption of your aquarium (fertilizing). You can read a lot about it in the debate with Barr. I suggest this very low doze like a start point (I really believe about to make everything simple for begginers). The idea is that all aquariums have different consumptions and differents balances. For example, if you have a carpet of marsilea crenata you will need to add a lot of Po4 in order to avoid gsa. If your carpet is a glosso one, then your aquarium will need a lot of Kno3 But, when you know exactly the consumption, then, plant are properly fertilized and if you test your water the No3 should be under 5 ppm.



Newt said:


> Lastly, when talking about the amount of light per liter are you simply taking the given tank size or the volume of water actually subjected to the light. For instance, I have a 75 gallon tank BUT this is when measured on the outside. Once it has substrate and decorations in it the actual water is about 60 gals that has light on it. Several gallons are in the substrate and do not recieve light and the glass is 1/2 inch thick, etc.


I think that the approach about light should be understandable even for begginers. Usually it became too complex. The watt/liter rule is simple to understand and there is a convention about to use the raw litters or gallons. 
My idea behind this is to use the plants as the aquarium filter, but I need at least 4 watts/gallon to have the plants filtering the aquarium properly. Esencially I have in mind plants like glosso, marsilea crenata, etc, I mean, the plants you are going to use to make a carpet.
Diana Wastald had a huge influence some years ago at spanish speaking forums and we had to work a lot to convice people to use some more light.



Newt said:


> - Coadyudantes:


Somethin secundary, not important, that has a relationship with the principal thing but not important. I talk about when you have red algae and people says thay the cause is too long light period or that the filter is too strong, etc.



Newt said:


> - Tapizantes:


 Are the plants that makes a carpet, like glosso, HC, eleocharis, etc.



Newt said:


> - Acuarismo ( I think it means the aquarium hobby)


 Yes



Newt said:


> - Sales (this seemed to be used in a couple/few different ways)


Means salt but I use to describe any fertilizer without chelate. There I criticize a group of argentina who prepared at home micros fertilazers without chelate but I don't mention them because is unpolite.



Newt said:


> - GAP - green algae point o.r what you mean by point


mmmmm, should be GSA, green spot algae.



Newt said:


> - Siguientres


It is a typing mistake, is "siguientes" and means "followings"

Please notice that the article continues below after Dorje comments. The MDC began as a debate and grew a lot from the feedback but we kept it as a thread, for this reason you will finde that there are some people answers in between.
The MDC finishes with this footnote:
"7. Sorín, Raúl, Tomo I, Instalación y Mantenimiento de acuarios, 1986, ed. Albatros, Bs. As. Argentina, p. 125 y ss."

You can have some more explaining info about the MDC in this interview:
http://acuariorosa.blogspot.com/2009/04/entrevista-christian-rubilar.html

I apologize if I didn't explain my self properly.
Regards


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## Newt

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to all of my questions.

I will continue increasing my KNO3 until only GSA is present (dont have much of this at all).
My GDA is slowly disappearing since removing my new TEK 4x54w lighting (for sale btw) and bumping up my CO2 a tad and allowing my PO4 to drop below 1ppm. I should not add any PO4, correct? or should I keep it around 0.5ppm?

So you are saying the amount of potassium in the KNO3 should be adequate for the tank?

I still stay with my idea that potassium which is not really consumed by the plants, certainly not like phosphate and nitrate, build up in the water column to toxic levels for algae. I believe the potassium is used by the plants more as an essential role in water status within the plant and turgor pressure of its cells. Also K is involved in the accumulation and translocation of newly formed carbohydrates.


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## Newt

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*

Well, I increased my KNO3 dosing and now have 15 to 20ppm. I also have brazilian pennywort growing on the surface. Awhile ago I removed my TEK 4x54w HO fixture which really made the GDA grow. I am keeping the PO4 to 0.5ppm.

I am happy to report that the algae is already disappearing, slowly but steadily.


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## Bert H

*Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I have moved this discussion here on the suggestion of a board member. Please continue discussion as needed here. Thanks.


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## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks, Bert H
:focus::bump:


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Bert H said:


> I have moved this discussion here on the suggestion of a board member. Please continue discussion as needed here. Thanks.


Thanks!


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Newt said:


> I should not add any PO4, correct? or should I keep it around 0.5ppm?`


When you use the Kno3 generic protocol you should not add anything else (control algae approach).
About Po4, I think that you should add what your plants needs (Fertilizing approach). 
I think that there is a mistake about keeping Po4 and other macros in rigid values like 1 ppm Po4, 10 ppm No3, etc. 
There is a general misunderstanding about fertilizing. If you test and you can read 1 ppm of Po4, there is something wrong, probably you are adding too much Po4. I think that the best is to keep tha tank close to GSA. 
I had an aquarium with only marsilea crenata. In that tank I used to add about 4 ppm of Po4 a week and I always was very close to GSA. This was because the marsilea crenata uptaked all the Po4 I added.



Newt said:


> So you are saying the amount of potassium in the KNO3 should be adequate for the tank?


This is a general rule because some plants needs more K like microsorums.



Newt said:


> I still stay with my idea that potassium which is not really consumed by the plants, certainly not like phosphate and nitrate, build up in the water column to toxic levels for algae


mmmm, yes and no. I think that the problem with potasium is that plants need just a little. If you add too much then plants uptake it. This is what farmers call "luxury consumption". When this happens you run out of No3 and then there are proper conditions for algae. I don't like to use the word toxic related to algae because algae only blooms when there are proper condition.



Newt said:


> I believe the potassium is used by the plants more as an essential role in water status within the plant and turgor pressure of its cells. Also K is involved in the accumulation and translocation of newly formed carbohydrates.


Potassium is very important, no doubt. If to take a look to the "bible", Sorin explains:

"In the body of plants, potassium is essential for the formation of starch and cellulose. As for the conversion of these substances into glucose. His speech was a catalyst, ie, it performed just by their presence and amounts pequenias not interveninng in the chemical reaction. Ie, directs the reaction but is not involved in it. Potassium is one of many metal catalysts, as opposed to organic catalysts such as enzymes and yeasts that are organic catalysts (alive)"

You can download the Sorin's book from this link:
http://rapidshare.com/files/30646921/Sorin_1_1_.pdf

The book was sold out over 20 years ago and it will never be printed againg (last edition was in 1986), so the copyrights are abandoned.

The best of that book is the Macro/ micros chapter, and lighting. Others chapters are simply obsolets.

Regards


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## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks again for your help.
It does appear to be working.
The T5HO 4 x 54w was too much along with the GroLux Std and WS. I've gone back to an Aquarelle, ADV850 and AGA 8000K. I've got a DYI in mind for a 4 X T8 fixture. I already have the miro4 reflector and the ballast.
As for now KNO3 and a daily tad (3 ml) of PO4 (liquid mix per Seachem strength) as my tank consumes it quickly and I dont want to run out.


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## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I downloaded Sorin's book but itsin Spanish and is a pdf.
Is there a way to use the google translator?:-k


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## ShortFin

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Okay...let me try to understand this concept in simpler term.

1) Dose only KNO3 until you only get GDA. This will be the amount of KNO3 for weekly dosing.
2) To get rid of GDA, manually remove it.

Do you go back to dosing KH2P04 and CSM+B after this? I'm using the EI method.

So after a major trimming, you'll have to cut back on KNO3 to find the optimum again or else you'll get GDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you'll have to constantly monitor your levels.


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## gdevil

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



> 1) Dose only KNO3 until you only get GDA. This will be the amount of KNO3 for weekly dosing.
> 2) To get rid of GDA, manually remove it.


Yes, that's the metod Christian suggest to control the GDA, whit a water change on the day 0 and 7...



> Do you go back to dosing KH2P04 and CSM+B after this? I'm using the EI method.


You can go back to your fertilizing metod, but it's good for you to know before what went wrong before you make the same mistake again, in the case of GDA I suggest not to use KH2PO4 since there is enough PO4 in the water.



> So after a major trimming, you'll have to cut back on KNO3 to find the optimum again or else you'll get GDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you'll have to constantly monitor your levels.


there is no need to monitor any level since your bioindicator will be GSA, if you do a major trimming you can make a water change and star dosing KNO3 'till you get the GSA and that would be your weekly dose and the rest would be as the EI method suggests.

Isn't so Christian...

Regards


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## bosmahe1

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Subscribed


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



ShortFin said:


> Okay...let me try to understand this concept in simpler term.


Ok, let's do it:

The MCI is a method of algae control and fertilizing.

Algae control approach:

1) Remove the GDA.
2) 50% water change
3) stopt fertilizing at all
4) Check your Co2, it should be at the maximum tolerated. PH/KH charts are useless. The best is to see how your shrims behaves. Increase slowly the amount of Co2. If they try to escape there is "real" 35 ppm of Co2. Then, you tune it a little less, use a filter or whatever to get away the Co2 from you water. If you have an electronic kit (Milwakee or similar) its much easier.
5) Add Kno3, 1 gram every 50 gallons per day during 1 week.
6) Day 7 50% water change

If after 1 week you didn't reach GSA, continue another 7 days but add 2 grams of kno3 every 50 gallons.

Fertilizing approach:

The amount of kno3 you used to reach GSA is the real consumption of your aquarium. This is amount you should use per week of Kno3.

GDA is related to a complex imbalance that involves Ca and Po4. So, don't worry about CSM+B.
You should add less Ca and Po4. Try adding 1/3 of the dozing you was using.

About Po4, I think that you should add it only if it is necesary. If you reach GSA the I suggest you add 0.1 ppm and see what hapend next week. If you reach it again you add 0.2 ppm and so on until you find the real consumption of your aquarium.



ShortFin said:


> I'm using the EI method.


You can use any method you like. But you should understand that all aquariums are different because there are differents combinations of plants, light, Co2, fish, etc. Every plant specie has unique needs. For example, marsilea crenata needs tons of Po4, microsorums needs k, Po4 and it's very sensitive to chloride. Glosso needs tons of No3, etc, etc. 
This is the reason why rigid rules doesn't work. Of course you can solve many problems with Excel but this only hides the real issue.



ShortFin said:


> So after a major trimming, you'll have to cut back on KNO3 to find the optimum again or else you'll get GDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you'll have to constantly monitor your levels.


Once you know the real consumption of your aquarium you reach a balance. You don't need to constantly monitor your levels. You should just take a look if you have or not some GSA just before the water change. 
But remember that we work with a dynamic balance because the aquarium is changing all the time. The generic protocol of the Kno3 I suggest will help you a lot to know how does your aquarium works. We have been using this method for over 4 years and algae is not an issue any more, not even for begginers.

If you take a look at the CIM, go down until you reach the algae pictures, you'll see that we had identified the most common algae and how to deal with them.

http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436

Regards


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



gdevil said:


> there is no need to monitor any level since your bioindicator will be GSA, if you do a major trimming you can make a water change and star dosing KNO3 'till you get the GSA and that would be your weekly dose and the rest would be as the EI method suggests.
> 
> Isn't so Christian...
> 
> Regards


precisely. You can use the algae control approach of the MCI and any other fertilizing method you feel comfortable with. Or you can use the MCI as your main fertilizing method. It's up to you, I am not a priest so I am not interested in evangelize nobody with my method.

Regards


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> I downloaded Sorin's book but itsin Spanish and is a pdf.
> Is there a way to use the google translator?:-k


There are free programs that transform pdf in text, then you can cntl copy it and translate with google translator.
One website I know is www.softonic.com
Anyway, the chapters about Co2, macro and micros is not that long, you can type it.
Regards


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## ShortFin

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thank you Gdevil and Christian for responding to my questions.

Your Fertilizing approach answered my question.



Christian_rubilar said:


> The MCI is a method of algae control and fertilizing.
> 
> Algae control approach:
> 
> 1) Remove the GDA.
> 2) 50% water change
> 3) stopt fertilizing at all
> 4) Check your Co2, it should be at the maximum tolerated. PH/KH charts are useless. The best is to see how your shrims behaves. Increase slowly the amount of Co2. If they try to escape there is "real" 35 ppm of Co2. Then, you tune it a little less, use a filter or whatever to get away the Co2 from you water. If you have an electronic kit (Milwakee or similar) its much easier.
> 5) Add Kno3, 1 gram every 50 gallons per day during 1 week.
> 6) Day 7 50% water change
> 
> If after 1 week you didn't reach GSA, continue another 7 days but add 2 grams of kno3 every 50 gallons.
> 
> Fertilizing approach:
> 
> The amount of kno3 you used to reach GSA is the real consumption of your aquarium. This is amount you should use per week of Kno3.
> 
> GDA is related to a complex imbalance that involves Ca and Po4. So, don't worry about CSM+B.
> You should add less Ca and Po4. Try adding 1/3 of the dozing you was using.
> 
> About Po4, I think that you should add it only if it is necesary. If you reach GSA the I suggest you add 0.1 ppm and see what hapend next week. If you reach it again you add 0.2 ppm and so on until you find the real consumption of your aquarium.
> 
> Once you know the real consumption of your aquarium you reach a balance. You don't need to constantly monitor your levels. You should just take a look if you have or not some GSA just before the water change.


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## ashappard

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

theres a lot of common sense information here, which is a good thing.
cheers for starting this discussion and its been amazingly civil.

its great to see discussion that involves monitoring the tank by actually using the plants and algae as indicators of the tanks health. you watch a tank long enough, you can begin to find patterns and you can infer what will happen next. I read through this discussion and quite a few familiar things did click.

I dose in excess, but often I do agree that it gets me in trouble and I see it coming. 
N - P ratios also get me in trouble. but good trouble.
I hate to see plants starve, wither, not live up to potential.
maybe I should work harder at trying to find a balance between yield and stability. 
but I like yield very much..


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



ashappard said:


> theres a lot of common sense information here, which is a good thing.
> cheers for starting this discussion and its been amazingly civil.
> 
> its great to see discussion that involves monitoring the tank by actually using the plants and algae as indicators of the tanks health. you watch a tank long enough, you can begin to find patterns and you can infer what will happen next. I read through this discussion and quite a few familiar things did click.
> 
> I dose in excess, but often I do agree that it gets me in trouble and I see it coming.
> N - P ratios also get me in trouble. but good trouble.
> I hate to see plants starve, wither, not live up to potential.
> maybe I should work harder at trying to find a balance between yield and stability.
> but I like yield very much.


Well, I used to cultivated aquarium plant as a living. The place I had was small so I was very interested about efficiency, high rates of growing and, of course, avoid starvation. From that experience I realize that there is a false dichotomy between efficiency and proper feeding. The idea I propose is to reach what your plants are really uptaking. There is no need of having nutrients in the water column that are not going to be consumed with one exception: No3. As soon as you lack No3 you are in troubles.

Regards


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## ashappard

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

true. and once growth stalls due to low nitrates all kinds of trouble ensues. It can be a real mess especially in a high light tank. I think one of the things I need to address is the way I dose macros. I have been mixing up KNO3 and KH2PO4 together in a solution where I think I should keep 2 solutions and dose what I think I need for each. In slower growth show tanks, this works fine. In my growouts, not so much as time goes on after water change.

my original reasoning on the mixed macros is that I will have a stable ratio between them, but my plants seem to have other plans and uptake at different rates based on the tank's sp. mix.. Or at least thats what I think happens. I'd like to try higher PO4 after water change - then less PO4 further into the grow cycle if it seems necessary. at least I'll have the flexibility to do so if I use 2 solutions.


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

If you add the macros separated, then you can play with them independently, that's the best!
Depending the plants you have the amount of Po4 you need.
Regards


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## goldfishes

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

My GDA is gone!!!!!! Thank you so much.


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*


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## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Me too!

Thanks so much for such an easy method and all the time you took to explain things.

My plants look so much healthier.

=D>

:bump2:


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I am really glad about that! 
Regards


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## nkambae

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Sticky status for this thread?

I admit to some confusion here as I am seeing references to gsa and gda. I don't have any green dust algae in any of my tanks but I do have green spot algae in two of my tanks. Especially on (can anyone guess?) my anubias and the older leaves of crypts and a large crinum.

Is this a method for removing/controlling gsa, gda, or both the previous and other types of algae? Or, rather, is it a method for finding a more optimum method of fertilization and the side benefit is a reduction or elimination of gda, gsa, et al?

Now it is time to light a pipe of toasted cavendish, reread the thread, and think a bit. Thanks to all and good luck.

stu


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



nkambae said:


> I admit to some confusion here as I am seeing references to gsa and gda.


I undertand your confusion. This is because I resume the MCI in a few sentences. I should translate the complete thread, it will take some weeks. Meanwhile you can use google translator. If you go down in the first page you will find many algae pictures, there you have specific protocols to deal with them:
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436



nkambae said:


> I don't have any green dust algae in any of my tanks but I do have green spot algae in two of my tanks. Especially on (can anyone guess?) my anubias and the older leaves of crypts and a large crinum.


One of the ideas of the MCI is that we are fertilizing plants instead of tanks. Each specie has a different uptake. Anubias and crinums needs extra Po4. GSA is a bio indicator or an imbalance about Po4, a lack of Po4. The protocol for the GSA is:

1. 50% water change.
2. Stopt fertilizing at all.
3. Clean the GSA (We are going to use it as a witness) every day.
4. Add Po4 every day. The doze is a gram every 500 gallons. 
5. Repeat #3 and #4 until GSA doens't show up again.
6. The amount of Po4 you needed to stop GSA is the doze you should use per week.
7. 50% water change on the 7th day.



nkambae said:


> Is this a method for removing/controlling gsa, gda, or both the previous and other types of algae? Or, rather, is it a method for finding a more optimum method of fertilization and the side benefit is a reduction or elimination of gda, gsa, et al?


The MCI is a method for control any kind of algae and for fertilizing. I believe that fertilizing and algae control are 2 faces of the same coin. The algae are bio indicators of your failures, You can't separate fertilizing and algae control. 
I look for the GSA in the same way that a blind man looks for the wall at the street with his walking stick. As soon as I find the GSA I know where I am. If I stay close to GSA there will be no other algae. This is the main idea about algae control.
About fertilizing, the idea is that every plant has different needs, so for me rules like 10.1.15 or TB idea about non limiting resources makes no sense. I propose to use the generic protocol of the Kno3 as a way to know the real uptake of your plants about No3. You can use the Po4 protocol against GSA to know exactly how much Po4 you need.
It's just common sense, if you have guest to dinner you should ask how many in order to know how much food you need. You don't ask about how many square feet is the house. The approach that is use in fertilizing is like this, people talks about how many gallons has the tank instead of taking care of the species you have.

Regards


----------



## Bert H

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Very interesting stuff, Christian. Some questions and comments for you.

So if I understand you correctly, you are espousing doing a major water change on the tank, then adding only nitrates daily during the week until you see the appearance of green dust algae (gda) on the glass. At that point you say you know how much NO3 your tank needs for a week.

Let me use an example of my 10 gallon tank (which has been ignored and I have a near algae farm on now). Let's say, after a major water change and clean out, I would then add 0.2g of NO3 to the tank per day. No other macros or micros at all? If after 3 days, I start to see the appearance of gda on the glass, I will know that my tank's needs are approximately 0.6g of NO3 for the week (assuming I do my 50% water change at week's end). At that point, then I could dose 0.3g at water change, and a second 0.3g midweek to meet the tank's needs, correct? If by chance, I cannot do a water change for 2 weeks (vacation or life getting in the way), then I would add 0.3g of NO3 every 3 days or so, correct? I did read in your reference Spanish thread that you recommend dosing 3x/week - is this a must or can it be modified as needed?

More to follow on another thread...


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Until GSA is reached not GDA. This will eliminate GDA then you do the same with phosphate dosing for dealing with the GSA.


----------



## Bert H

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

...continuing...

The 10 gallon tank I refer to on the above thread is an 'experimental tank' for me, run on city water which I obtain from a friend, as I have well water at the house. My other two tanks, both 50 gallons, are run on my house water.

Being on well water from a limestone aquifer, means I have high kh and gh, mostly from calcium carbonate. My water does not have NO3 or PO4 which I can measure. According to your proposals, high Ca is a problem. This is a 'problem' I cannot do away with, as I have no plans nor desire to purchase an RO unit. I deal with this issue by adding Mg to my tanks twice a week. I have learned that certain plants just will not thrive in my water, and others are marginal, with a little tinkering in my part, ie addition of Mg.

To get away from algae issues temporarily, how do you deal with stunting issues on plants? If I don't add Mg to my tanks, several plants (Rotalas, Proserpinaca) will stunt considerably on me. As it is, I still get a little stunting on certain plants, but it is much less with the Mg addition.

In addition to the above, I have always found that I could not run a 'lean' tank with my water. Nutrient uptake/requirements are different with hard water as opposed to soft(er) waters. Any comments you'd like to direct to that? Or can you direct me to any portions of your Spanish threads which deal with this (I speak Spanish also).

Interesting stuff...


----------



## Bert H

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> Until GSA is reached not GDA. This will eliminate GDA then you do the same with phosphate dosing for dealing with the GSA.


I thought the main reference was to GDA and NO3 uptakes. I thought a similar approach was used for GSA with PO4 - adding PO4 until GSA was gone.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Bert H said:


> I thought the main reference was to GDA and NO3 uptakes. I thought a similar approach was used for GSA with PO4 - adding PO4 until GSA was gone.


Newt was right, we were talking about to reach GSA as a way to eliminate GDA and other algae.

That approach can be used with all macros (Fe included) at the MCI. For example, you talk about your 10 gallon tank. You have too much Ca in your tap water and you add MG to compensate it. If you stop fertilizing with MG you have problems very soon. This probably means that you are adding not enough MG. You can use the same approach I propose with No3 with MG. Instead of looking for GSA you are going to look for this algae:










Usually people say that algae blooms because an excess of nutrients, TB says that they show up because a lack of nutrients, I believe that is something in between, they appear when there is an specific imbalance. You can solve it with the Kno3 protocol and after that reviewing you dozing. You can use the algae as feedback, for this reason I don't agree with the magic solution of Excel.

As I said before, the main idea is that we are fertilizing plants intead of tanks. This is another layer in the MCI, to solve algae issues in long term with proper election of plants. You mentioned that your water has too much Ca. Perhaps you should have some plants that consumes priority Ca as rotala macrandra among others.

Regards


----------



## Bert H

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Let me see if I have this straight, add NO3 daily until you start seeing green SPOT algae. This will be the measure of NO3 needed to stop green DUST algae?


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

This is very interesting. I think I will try this on my 90g tank. I have intermittant problems w/ BBA which I resort to killing w/ Excel.

One question--I gather you are suggesting that if I follow this method to find the KNO3 level required to induce GSA (green spot algae) then I can maintain this level and prevent the BBA from returning?

Bert H--thanks for trying to clarify between GSA and GDA. I have been confused reading this as at times they seem to have been used interchangealby (or else I have just missed the finer points).

Very interesting--thanks for posting this!

-Roy


----------



## riverrat

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Bert H said:


> Let me see if I have this straight, add NO3 daily until you start seeing green SPOT algae. This will be the measure of NO3 needed to stop green DUST algae?


I think Christian is saying once you see GSA while dosing no3 daily that the amount you dosed to that point is what you should use as a starting point for a weekly dosage. Maybe the plants with this amount of kno3 and proper co2 have now depleted the phosphate.

Once you have your KNO3 figured out you are then riding on the edge of GSA which usually means your low on phosphate right? Now you start dosing along with you new weekly starting point for kno3 a small amount of phosphate. Say .1ppm per day until you no longer see new GSA developing on glass or plants. Ect........

This seems like a logical approach for me because In my experience all algae forms can be beat. I think Christian is just giving a system to help people find the balance (the +/- part of EI) quicker. EI is a system I have used successfully but I have also seen ferts load in excess big time in my aquarium and cause problems for me.

This being said I also think that lacking KNO3 in a tank will cause plants the biggest problems and bring BGA into the picture. So makes sense to start with Kno3.

I have been chasing a problem for a few months now and have had some Gda lately. I think I will give this a try.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Bert H said:


> Let me see if I have this straight, add NO3 daily until you start seeing green SPOT algae. This will be the measure of NO3 needed to stop green DUST algae?


No.
To stop GDA you should follow the GDA protocol.
The generic protocol of Kno3 measures the amount of Kno3 you need per week in order to fertilize properly with that macro and avoid algae.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



rjfurbank said:


> This is very interesting. I think I will try this on my 90g tank. I have intermittant problems w/ BBA which I resort to killing w/ Excel.
> 
> One question--I gather you are suggesting that if I follow this method to find the KNO3 level required to induce GSA (green spot algae) then I can maintain this level and prevent the BBA from returning?


You can stop bloom and prevent BBA returning with the Kno3 generic protocol. But BBA is a vague. Wich one do you have?










This one is related to an imbalance that envolves too much Ca (related to MG) and Fe.
The generic protocol of Kno3 works great to stop the bloom and you can use Excel to kill it. After that you should a) add more MG or b) add less Ca and add less Fe.

IF the algae you call BBA is this one:










Then you have an imbalance related to Fe and micros. The solution is the use the generic protocol of Kno3 + Excel. After that, you should add 1/3 of the micros + Fe. This algae is typical when you used CSM+B.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



riverrat said:


> `I think Christian is saying once you see GSA while dosing no3 daily that the amount you dosed to that point is what you should use as a starting point for a weekly dosage. Maybe the plants with this amount of kno3 and proper co2 have now depleted the phosphate.


Yes!



riverrat said:


> Once you have your KNO3 figured out you are then riding on the edge of GSA which usually means your low on phosphate right? Now you start dosing along with you new weekly starting point for kno3 a small amount of phosphate. Say .1ppm per day until you no longer see new GSA developing on glass or plants. Ect........


No exactly. If you have GSA then you are lacking Po4 and your plants will suffer because of it. But if you are close, means that your plants are properly fed without algae issues. Usually there is no need of adding Po4. GSA will tell you if you have to add it or not. Depends of the plants you have and their needs.
I used to cultivate anubias in monoculture with very high light, I used to add Po4 as salt with my hands and I was always close to GSA. The anubias grew up very fast. The same happend with a noculture of marsilea crenata.



riverrat said:


> This seems like a logical approach for me because In my experience all algae forms can be beat. I think Christian is just giving a system to help people find the balance (the =/- part of EI) quicker. EI is a system I have used successfully but I have also seen ferts load in excess big time in my aquarium and cause problems for me.


That's the idea! The MCI born as my (algae) feedback of the EI. After that I abandoned the EI and I developed the fertilizing approach of the MCI.

Regards


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> You can stop bloom and prevent BBA returning with the Kno3 generic protocol. But BBA is a vague. Wich one do you have?
> 
> IF the algae you call BBA is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have an imbalance related to Fe and micros. The solution is the use the generic protocol of Kno3 + Excel. After that, you should add 1/3 of the micros + Fe. This algae is typical when you used CSM+B.


I have this type and am using CSM+B for my micros--I am impressed at your diagnosis!

I have read that CSM+B can not have enough iron (or if I am not dosing enough) so I have recently (this week) begun adding Seachem's Iron suppliment. Too soon to tell if this will help though.

My problem w/ the BBA is not terrible (but a constant problem)--if there is a chance to balance things better to prevent it then I am definitely willing to try.

From your post it seems you recommend following the protocol you have outlined to determine the proper KNO3 weekly amount based on the level required to induce GSA. After that I get a little confused. . .

A couple questions:

1. During the KNO3 protocol should I continue to dose micros or potassium? (I am currently dosing both in addition to KNO3, no PO4 currently as my tests indicate that I have more than enough from feeding my fish).

2. After I find the correct KNO3 level what amount of micro's should I add? You specify 1/3--I am not sure if this means 1/3 of the KNO3 amount or 1/3 of my current dosing or something else entirely.

Thanks,

-Roy


----------



## davemonkey

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

This is an awesome thread, and JUST what I needed! I'm been having a heck of a time trying to figure out my dosing for a 55 gal since it has a bit of topsoil ( 1/4" ) under the substrate.

I'm going to do a water change and cleaning tonight and start the methods tomorrow to find the right KNO3 and PO4 I need.

One question: Is there a way to convert grams to teaspoons? (Is a 1/8 tsp a close measure for 1 gram of KNO3, or 1/4 tsp? ) I have a 1/8th tsp and a 1/4 tsp that I want to start with for this experiment, I don't have a gram scale. Currently all my doses are done by the tsp (1/8 tsp KH2PO4 and 1/2 tsp KNO3, 3x weekly. I stopped dosing micros at all because even the slightest bit leads to algae outbreaks...I guess due to the soil underlayer).

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



rjfurbank said:


> I have read that CSM+B can not have enough iron (or if I am not dosing enough) so I have recently (this week) begun adding Seachem's Iron suppliment. Too soon to tell if this will help though.


The iron fashion....I think that the problem with CSM+B is another but not the lack of Fe. 
May you please post the link yo mentioned?



rjfurbank said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1. During the KNO3 protocol should I continue to dose micros or potassium? (I am currently dosing both in addition to KNO3, no PO4 currently as my tests indicate that I have more than enough from feeding my fish).


No, you should stop fertilizing at all, only Kno3.
About the Po4, you should have plants with priority need of Po4. Marsilea crenata is the best choice. As soon as you have a carpet of marsilea crenata you will need to add Po4.



rjfurbank said:


> 2. After I find the correct KNO3 level what amount of micro's should I add? You specify 1/3--I am not sure if this means 1/3 of the KNO3 amount or 1/3 of my current dosing or something else entirely.


I mean 1/3 of the CSM+B. The amount of Kno3 you need for reach the GSA is what you need por week.

Each algae has the same Kno3 protocol but with some extra tip, for this reason the best is to check the spanish version until I translate it.

Regards


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Cool--thanks for the clarification. I plan to start this soon--after my usual weekend 50% water change. I will post my results here as things progress unless you object (I can start a new thread if you'd prefer).

I will look for the link on iron and post here if I can find it. It may not have been regarding the lack of quantity of iron but the type and it's availability to the plants. Will look for it. . .


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



davemonkey said:


> One question: Is there a way to convert grams to teaspoons? (Is a 1/8 tsp a close measure for 1 gram of KNO3, or 1/4 tsp? ) I have a 1/8th tsp and a 1/4 tsp that I want to start with for this experiment, I don't have a gram scale. Currently all my doses are done by the tsp (1/8 tsp KH2PO4 and 1/2 tsp KNO3, 3x weekly. I stopped dosing micros at all because even the slightest bit leads to algae outbreaks...I guess due to the soil underlayer).


1/4 teaspon is 125 ml, about 1.5 gram of Kno3. You can use that.

But you need a scale for the Po4 or to prepare a solution. Today I bought an electronic scale at ebay for 8 dollars shipping included. You can use it for Po4 and micros, that's the best!

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



rjfurbank said:


> Cool--thanks for the clarification. I plan to start this soon--after my usual weekend 50% water change. I will post my results here as things progress unless you object (I can start a new thread if you'd prefer).


To start a new one seems to be the best, regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Link to digital gram scale at eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350198944402&_trkparms=tab=Watching


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Here's a link on the iron dosing I was referring to--

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...8-dosing-iron-ei-seachem-recommendations.html


----------



## ShortFin

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

My 40gal contains: large amunt of anubias and java fern, dwarf sag, hornwort, frogbit, crypts, hygro polysperma and angustifolia.

I haven't get to the state of green spot algae yet. I have been adding 1/2 tsp of KNO3 for almost a week with nothing else. String algae doesn't seem to be dying or turning grey. This weekend I'll up another 1/4 tsp to see what happens.

According the Chuck's calculator.

KNO3
1 gram = 0.18 tsp
1/8 tsp = 0.7 gram
1/4 tsp = 1.4 gram

KH2PO4
1 gram = 0.21 tsp
1/8 tsp = 0.6 gram
1/4 tsp = 1.2 gram



Christian_rubilar said:


> About Po4, I think that you should add it only if it is necesary. If you reach GSA the I suggest you add 0.1 ppm and see what hapend next week. If you reach it again you add 0.2 ppm and so on until you find the real consumption of your aquarium.


Anyone know the conversion to teaspoon for this?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



ShortFin said:


> My 40gal contains: large amunt of anubias and java fern, dwarf sag, hornwort, frogbit, crypts, hygro polysperma and angustifolia.
> 
> I haven't get to the state of green spot algae yet. I have been adding 1/2 tsp of KNO3 for almost a week with nothing else. Thread algae doesn't seem to be dying or turning grey. This weekend I'll up another 1/4 tsp to see what happens.


Ok, make the 50% water change. Continue adding Kno3 but double until you reach GSA.

About Po4, you should prepare a solution, chuck's calculator has this option.
Regards


----------



## ShortFin

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Ok, make the 50% water change. Continue adding Kno3 but double until you reach GSA.
> 
> About Po4, you should prepare a solution, chuck's calculator has this option.
> Regards


Will do :thumbsup:

I have a 20h tank about to be setup. Lighting will be 48w T5HO. Do you recommend MCI protocol for non Co2 and shrimp tank?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



ShortFin said:


> My 40gal contains: large amunt of anubias and java fern, dwarf sag, hornwort, frogbit, crypts, hygro polysperma and angustifolia.
> 
> I haven't get to the state of green spot algae yet. I have been adding 1/2 tsp of KNO3 for almost a week with nothing else. Thread algae doesn't seem to be dying or turning grey. This weekend I'll up another 1/4 tsp to see what happens.


Ok, I understood you had GDA.
No all algae dies with the Kno3 protocol. Some remains but the bloom stops. Then you should kill them with H2O2 10% direct on the algae, no more than 20 ml every 20 gallons per day, Excel or simply to cut the leaves.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



ShortFin said:


> Will do :thumbsup:
> 
> I have a 20h tank about to be setup. Lighting will be 48w T5HO. Do you recommend MCI protocol for non Co2 and shrimp tank?


The MCI has prerequisites: light no less han 3 watts/gallon, Co2 no less than 25 ppm between others. If you have no enough light and Co2 it doesn't work.
Regards


----------



## ShortFin

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I think you have mis-read. The only algae I have right now is string. I never have any green dust algae before.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



ShortFin said:


> I think you have mis-read. The only algae I have right now is thread. I never have any green dust algae before.


Ok!


----------



## fish dork

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Is this method assuming a 50% water change weekly once the desired fert levels are found?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



fish dork said:


> Is this method assuming a 50% water change weekly once the desired fert levels are found?


It's better if you can change 50% water change weekly because this way you are adding Ca but it has nothing to do with reseting the tank.

Regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,
I have VERY soft water where I am and add a GH booster that contains 4 parts Ca, 1 part Mg and a trace of (1/40th) Mn and also add alkaline booster by Seachem to raise KH.
What do you recommend as an appropriate ratio for the Ca, Mg and Mn?
Is my Mg content enough?


----------



## fish dork

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> It's better if you can change 50% water change weekly because this way you are adding Ca but it has nothing to do with reseting the tank.
> 
> Regards


I'm in the same boat as Newt, I have very soft water. I have to add in Ca, and Mg as well; there is virtually none in my tap water. I add Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Sulphate for this.


----------



## mattutd20

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks for this article/thread.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> Christian,
> I have VERY soft water where I am and add a GH booster that contains 4 parts Ca, 1 part Mg and a trace of (1/40th) Mn and also add alkaline booster by Seachem to raise KH.
> What do you recommend as an appropriate ratio for the Ca, Mg and Mn?
> Is my Mg content enough?


There doesn't exist proper ratios for Ca/Mg neither. It's the same critic I do to the 10.1.15 NPK ratio. Healthy plants and no algae will show you when you reach your own proper ratio. However, you need a start point, you can use this ratio you mentioned if you have plants like rotala macrandra or other that needs lots of Ca (I prefer to use the term "with priority consumption").

I posted the pictures of two algae, one related to an imbalance with Ca, the second related to an imbalance with MG. As I said, you can try any ratio you want and tune it up using algae and plant deficiency as bioindicators. It's the same than Kno3/Po4.

In my experience with very soft water, a better start point is an inverse relationship: 4 parts Mg and 1 part Ca.
Some years ago I worked with a company that develops custom fertilizers and they developed this one with Mg and no Ca. The agronomist in charge of that small company has a PHD about fertilizing and he was professor at the subject "fertilizing" at Buenos Aires agronomy University:










We had positive feedback for 3 years, so I am not speculating about the asserts I made.

I tried GH booster and it works well.

Anyway, I don't like to use calcium chloride because you can have problems with microsorums and young leaves of some plants can be burn. In the other hand, I think that Mg is more important.

About soft water, I used to live in Buenos Aires city, the tap water came from the Matto Grosso through the Parana River, so it was absolutely soft, 1.5 kh, no Ca little Mg. It's not big deal, you need to add Mg for sure and perhaps some Ca. I used aragonite in the filter and it was Ok with plants with no priority consumption of Ca. I also tried calcium nitrate and Calcium carbonate and they work ok.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



mattutd20 said:


> Thanks for this article/thread.


In fact, it is a debate, the original title was "debate: algae control & fertilizing method". We were debating for over a year at www.drpez.com. The version you can read in spanish nowadays is the result of that debate and the feedback of the users. The debate was never closed, and the article never finished because the idea is to continue it in order to improve the MCI every day.

Regards


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Christian_rubilar,

I have started trying this method on my 90g tank. I am posting the progress/results on my journal thread for this tank starting at post #21 (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/59863-rjfurbank-s-90g-journal-3.html#post475935)

Any suggestions, comments would be welcome.

Thanks,

-Roy


----------



## goldfishes

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Algae came back. What did I do wrong? I think I am too lazy for this method of algae control. I have to actually think. :yield:


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



sewingalot said:


> Algae came back. What did I do wrong?


Ok, after the 7th day water change, what did you do?

The main idea is to change the way you were fertilizing in order to find a balance in long terms.

GDA is related to an imbalance of Ca:Mg and Po4.

There are two ways to deal with the Ca imbalance. 
1) You should reduce the dozing of Ca. 
2) Or you should add more Mg.

As I wrote, I think that a better ratio es 4 parts Mg 1 part of Ca.

Regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



sewingalot said:


> Algae came back. What did I do wrong? I think I am too lazy for this method of algae control. I have to actually think. :yield:


What I did when I reached the point where the GDA was disappearing was to take a nitrate reading. It was ~20ppm (double of what I was keeping my tank at. I now keep my tank at 20ppm NO3 and I only have a little left on some Crypt and Java fern leaves

I'm working on the PO4 level to combat the GSA.


----------



## bosmahe1

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hello all,

I have GDA appear where I have to clean every couple of days. My water tests at 4 Kdh, 11 Gdh, Ph at 6.4 with 30 ppm CO2 (green drop checker-4 Kdh water). Water changes are about 30 % per week.

I just started adding 1 gram of kno3 (everyday), and stopped adding csm+b and k2hpo4 about a week ago. I probably will need to go to 2 grams per day next week. My nitrate readings don't quite reach 10 ppm.

I have no idea what the percentage is of calcium and magnesium in my 11 Gdh water. Is there anyway to make an educated guess as to how much magnesium I could add to counter act the possible calcium imbalance? I haven' t really checked to see if there are any freshwater magnesium test kits for a reasonable price. I live in Leesburg Virginia, 40 miles west of Washington DC for any expert familiar with this area. My tap water comes from the Potomac River, no I don't have three eyes yet.


----------



## goldfishes

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Ok, after the 7th day water change, what did you do?
> 
> The main idea is to change the way you were fertilizing in order to find a balance in long terms.
> 
> GDA is related to an imbalance of Ca:Mg and Po4.
> 
> There are two ways to deal with the Ca imbalance.
> 1) You should reduce the dozing of Ca.
> 2) Or you should add more Mg.
> 
> As I wrote, I think that a better ratio es 4 parts Mg 1 part of Ca.
> 
> Regards


Ahh, I got the Mg and Ca backwards. I put 4 parts Ca and 1 part Mg. I used the fertilator, but it doesn't help if you use the wrong ratio, huh? Okay. I'll try again.


----------



## goldfishes

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

However, I have really hard water to begin with and like bosmahe1 do not know the ratio I am starting with before adding the Ca and Mg. Will this make a difference?


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



bosmahe1 said:


> ......
> I have no idea what the percentage is of calcium and magnesium in my 11 Gdh water. Is there anyway to make an educated guess as to how much magnesium I could add to counter act the possible calcium imbalance? I haven' t really checked to see if there are any freshwater magnesium test kits for a reasonable price. I live in Leesburg Virginia, 40 miles west of Washington DC for any expert familiar with this area. My tap water comes from the Potomac River, no I don't have three eyes yet.


Call your local water department or board of health. You could alos ask a company that does water treatment for any manufacturing facilities in your town.


----------



## bosmahe1

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hmmm! Why didn't I think of that? Thanks for the Suggestion Newt.


----------



## davemonkey

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

So far so good. I just found out I only need 3/4 tsp of KNO3 per week. That's half of what I had been dosing. Now I'm working on Phosphates.

My poor plants look like they are suffering from lack of Potassium, so hopefully this won't take long and I can get them back to good health.

-Dave


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



bosmahe1 said:


> I have no idea what the percentage is of calcium and magnesium in my 11 Gdh water. Is there anyway to make an educated guess as to how much magnesium I could add to counter act the possible calcium imbalance? I haven' t really checked to see if there are any freshwater magnesium test kits for a reasonable price. I live in Leesburg Virginia, 40 miles west of Washington DC for any expert familiar with this area. My tap water comes from the Potomac River, no I don't have three eyes yet.


Well, I think that the best is to do what Newt said.

I can give you a few more ideas.

1) You don't need a Mg test. If you have a GH one then you just need a Ca test: GH - Ca = Mg

2) You can look for the Ca:Mg balance like a blind man with a walking stick. Do the same than the Kno3 protocol but with Mg. It means, clean every day GDA and add MG every day until GDA doesn't show up. Then, this is the amount of Mg you need. If the algae related to Mg appears, then the amount is 1/3 below that as the weekly fertilizing. (footnote: Hard water can be an issue for your fish, and Mg can be toxic in high levels, so you know your tank better than me and you can choose the best solution)

3) I think that the best you can do is to reduce Po4 to 0.2. GDA is an issue because you guys are used to add a lot of Po4 and Fe. For me it makes no sense and causes lot of problems. I explain you why:

The main idea behind the MCI is to reach efficiency. Think about this analogy: if you prepare lunch, is a sign of good feeding that a lot of food remains in the table? Is it a sign of starving that after lunch the table is empty? I don't think so. But this is the approach used with fertilizing.

I disagree about adding 1 or 2 ppm of Po4 because then, when you add Fe, they became FePO4 (iron phosphate) and both are not immediately available for plants. I read in a thread about this topic and there was an argument that asserts that plants can use them by the roots, but that approach makes no sense for me because then is better to use laterite blended with humus.

I propose to add the Po4 you need and no more. The same with Fe. And to add Po4 and Fe in different days, alternated. This way plants uptake immediately the Po4 and Fe.
So, how to know the ppms you should add? There are no rigid rules, you should find the needs of your aquarium.

Well, about Po4, GSA is a prompt bio indicator, plant deficiencies a late one. I had GSA adding 3 ppm of Po4 because I had a carpet of marsilea crenata that is a plant with priority consumption of Po4/ With 4 ppm GSA didn't show up anymore.

About Fe, I think that the best is to start with a low dosis like 0.1 ppm per week. And the day after, before adding Po4 it should be in zero. That's perfect. You can increase the dozing with two limits, the algae I relate with Fe excess and test measuring the day after.

This way you can deal with GDA without a Ro filter and without making Mg an issue.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Newt said:


> I still stay with my idea that potassium which is not really consumed by the plants, certainly not like phosphate and nitrate, build up in the water column to toxic levels for algae.


I was re reading Sorin last night. The problem with potassium sulphate is that when the sulphate is oxidized, it becomes sulfuric acid. In low ppms it allow the bloom of one algae I identified in the MCI, in a little bigger amount, you know.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



davemonkey said:


> So far so good. I just found out I only need 3/4 tsp of KNO3 per week. That's half of what I had been dosing. Now I'm working on Phosphates.
> 
> My poor plants look like they are suffering from lack of Potassium, so hopefully this won't take long and I can get them back to good health.
> 
> -Dave


What kind of k deficiency you see?
Do you have hard or soft water?

Regards


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Davemonkey--how much GSA did you have when you arrived at your requirement of 3/4 tsp? Was it a lot or just a few spots?

I am on day 5 of the KNO3 protocol and some of my plants are starting to suffer as well (some holes and off-color leaves on my red lotus and blackening tips on my Heteranthera zosterifolia).


----------



## davemonkey

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian, what I'm seeing as Potassium defficiency (and I may be wrong, I just don't know what else it would be) is small soft spots developing in the lower leaves of my stem plants and throughout my epiphytes that do not have roots in the substrate (anubias and java fern). These spots gradually get bigger (almost like a fungal attack, but with a circular pattern rather than irregular shapes).

When it appeared on my epiphytes I thought first it might be micro defficiency since I have not dosed any micros in a couple months (my soil underlayer started releasing nutrients and every time I dosed micros I got very bad Green Water and GDA outbreaks). Really, I think I need to remove all my substrate and start over without the soil.

Roy (and Christian), maybe I misunderstood. I dosed KNO3 until I got Green DUST Algae appearing on the glass rather than Green Spot Algae. Coincidentally, I did get 1 or 2 new spots of GSA about the same time. Should I re-do?

-Dave


----------



## bosmahe1

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

I think I will take your advise and not worry about magnesium/calcium so much. I have stopped adding k2hpo4 and reduced csm+b supplimentation to .134 grams or .156 ml per week (at water change time) giving me .05 ppm of fe per week. I don't know how much FE is in the tap water so I'll see what happens.

I have tested the presence of phosphate even without adding k2hpo4 so I can eliminate adding phosphate maybe permanently. If I can reduce cleaning GDA to once a week I will be happy. Cleaning GDA is still easier than cleaning GSA in my opinion.

Thanks for your help.

Henry


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

You dose KNO3 until you only have Green Spot algae. When I did this I kept my PO4 to 0.05ppm and have stopped dosing Potassium Sulphate as KNO3 has potassium in it. My potassium is now running between 10 and 15 ppm using a LaMotte test kit.

Once you have only GSA you dose KH2PO4 until that disappears.

The idea of this is to find the right amounts/balance of ferts so you dont have to overdose and do big water changes as with EI. Its is more of a type of PPS dosing IMO - at least thats how I'm approaching it.

The GSA I got on the front and side glass was very small compared to the GSA on the back of the tank. I cant belive the difference in the appearance of my plants.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



rjfurbank said:


> Davemonkey--how much GSA did you have when you arrived at your requirement of 3/4 tsp? Was it a lot or just a few spots?
> 
> I am on day 5 of the KNO3 protocol and some of my plants are starting to suffer as well (some holes and off-color leaves on my red lotus and blackening tips on my Heteranthera zosterifolia).


When the heteranthera zosterifolia gets black this is because a deficiency of Kno3.

About the lotus, what kind of sustrate do you use?

Regards


----------



## bosmahe1

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

MCI does make sense in my opinion, finding a balance. Since I used to add 2 ppm k2hp04, 5-10 ppm Kno3 and 10-15 ppm k2SO4 and doing 30 % water changes, I was probably in excess. Adding k2so4 was the first thing I stopped, knowing that I was getting potassium from kno3 already. I will have to use patience until I find that balance.


----------



## rjfurbank

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> About the lotus, what kind of sustrate do you use?


Eco Complete.


----------



## goldfishes

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Looks like I need to get a calcium test kit.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



rjfurbank said:


> Eco Complete.


Ok, I use the same right now, so I know it.
Lotus has specially needs. The best is to put it in a plant pot with humus and sand. This way it can get all the Po4 it needs. However, plants shouldn't show deficiencies so fast, it means that they were not that well feed.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I was re reading Sorin's again (page 55 and followings). The only useful reason for adding so much Fe is because it reduces the redox potencial (it reduces the chances of sulphates become sulfuric acid). But, it can be solved adding less sulphates. Then using just a little Fe, plants can uptake Fe and Po4 properly. Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



davemonkey said:


> Christian, what I'm seeing as Potassium defficiency (and I may be wrong, I just don't know what else it would be) is small soft spots developing in the lower leaves of my stem plants and throughout my epiphytes that do not have roots in the substrate (anubias and java fern). These spots gradually get bigger (almost like a fungal attack, but with a circular pattern rather than irregular shapes)


Potassium defficiency in microsorums is related to black spots. If the leaves get light brown, I saw this burns using calcium chloride. Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Potassium defficiency in microsorums is related to black spots. If the leaves get light brown, I saw this burns using calcium chloride. Regards


I was re thinking about this. You should do a 50% water change ASAP. Perhaps chloride is becaming 
hydrochloric acid. I mention that adding 1 ppm or more of Fe is useless for fertilizing but helps to reduce redox potencial.
Regards


----------



## davemonkey

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> I was re thinking about this. You should do a 50% water change ASAP. Perhaps chloride is becaming
> hydrochloric acid. I mention that adding 1 ppm or more of Fe is useless for fertilizing but helps to reduce redox potencial.
> Regards


YIKES! I'll change the water. Where would the chloride be coming from? I don't use calcium chloride, but I do have hard tap water. The only thing I add to the water is "StressCoat" dechlorinator, KNO3, KH2PO4, and CO2.

Might there be something in that soil I have under my substrate that is turning acidic? (It is plain topsoil from an area that used to be a flower a couple years ago. I have 1/4 inch of it under my SMS substrate. )

I HAVE noticed that after a water change, my water "feels" mostly neutral when I stick my hand in to trim plants. After a few days, though, I can actually feel some acidity on my skin if I'm working in the tank. I assumed this was from the CO2 lowering the pH over time between water changes. Perhaps I am very wrong. Maybe it also has something to do with the mysterious bio-film I get on my water surface. Hmmm.....

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## bosmahe1

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

I have a 46 Gallon Bowfront with 156 watts of T5HO 2x6500K bulbs + 2x6700K bulbs for 7 hours per day. I have pressurized co2 with 4kdh drop checker at very light green. I am fighting GDA and have some BBA. I am starting the kno3 protocol this week.

What is your recommendation for how long I should run the lights?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



davemonkey said:


> YIKES! I'll change the water. Where would the chloride be coming from? I don't use calcium chloride, but I do have hard tap water. The only thing I add to the water is "StressCoat" dechlorinator, KNO3, KH2PO4, and CO2.
> 
> Might there be something in that soil I have under my substrate that is turning acidic? (It is plain topsoil from an area that used to be a flower a couple years ago. I have 1/4 inch of it under my SMS substrate. )
> 
> I HAVE noticed that after a water change, my water "feels" mostly neutral when I stick my hand in to trim plants. After a few days, though, I can actually feel some acidity on my skin if I'm working in the tank. I assumed this was from the CO2 lowering the pH over time between water changes. Perhaps I am very wrong. Maybe it also has something to do with the mysterious bio-film I get on my water surface. Hmmm.....
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


If you have a problem with your substrate, usually it produces sulfuric acid. Take out a plant and see the roots, they should be black if you have sulfuric acid in the substrate.

About the "StressCoat", do you know the formula?

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



bosmahe1 said:


> Christian,
> 
> I have a 46 Gallon Bowfront with 156 watts of T5HO 2x6500K bulbs + 2x6700K bulbs for 7 hours per day. I have pressurized co2 with 4kdh drop checker at very light green. I am fighting GDA and have some BBA. I am starting the kno3 protocol this week.
> 
> What is your recommendation for how long I should run the lights?


Tropical days last 12 hours.

Ok, please read the comments about Ca:Mg and Po4 related to GDA.

Regards


----------



## tsound

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Well, the main idea behind the MDC is to reach the GSA for three reasons. 1) close to GSA no other algae can bloom 2) the amount of Kno3 your aquarium needs to reach the gsa is the real consumption of your aquarium per week. That's the amount you should use for fertilizing. 3) If you have any algae, if you look for gsa, the algae stop bloom or die.
> Fertilizing in this way makes that is you test your water there is never more than 2.5 ppm of No3.
> In my opinion, rigid rules like 10.1.15 makes no sense, diferents aquariums have diferents balances: 20.1.15, 5.5.15, or whatever.
> 
> The idea about to work only about Kno3 is because if you work with too many other variables, then you don't know how to induce a solution. And if you solve it, you don't know why it happend.
> 
> In the other hand, the idea is to use your plants as the filter of your aquarium.
> 
> The MDC is only a frame, as soon as you understand it you can use any fertilizing method you want without algae. At the forum of www.drpez.com many people use PPS or EI, etc.
> 
> In this thread you can read a little more (in english) about the MDC, this is an unfinished debate with Tom Barr (plantBrain):
> http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=307546&page=2&pp=25
> Regards


for the last 2 days i have tried to wrap my brain around this...i can't seem to grasp it...

first question as to the realization of the kno3 protocol: say GSA appears after 9 days, 7 of which were 1gr kno3/day, then a WC, then 2 days were 2gr kno3/day.
so what is the amount of kno3 my tank uses per week? 7x1gr + 2x2gr =11gr ???
what about the WC, how does that fit into the calculation?
what about other nutrients bottoming out during that period, doesn't that affect N uptake? then after resuming regular fertilization, N uptake will be higher again?

second question:
what if you start the kno3 protocol with very low P levels to begin with?
say your P bottoms out after 2 days and GSA appears? does that mean your weekly N consumption of the tank is only 2 x 1gr?

sorry if these questions are redundant, but i really do want to understand this, it makes a lot of common sense to me, just i can't grasp it logically.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



tsound said:


> so what is the amount of kno3 my tank uses per week? 7x1gr + 2x2gr =11gr ???


In this case, yes, 11 grams. But this is a little tricky. You Know, we don't use such high level of Po4 (the same about Fe) in our aquariums so for me there are many new challenges because the water chemistry is complete different, with a lot of interferences. In our tanks one week is always enough. 
mmmmmm, let me think.....the Kno3 protocol is another way to reset your aquarium, but a controlled one because I know where I am going. 
If reaching the GSA (reseting your aquarium) takes quit long....I think we will have to find out together an answer .



tsound said:


> what about the WC, how does that fit into the calculation?


 When you change water you reduces No3 and Po4 as well.



tsound said:


> what about other nutrients bottoming out during that period, doesn't that affect N uptake?


Not necessarily.



tsound said:


> then after resuming regular fertilization, N uptake will be higher again?


The No3 uptake is dynamic. The generic protocol of the Kno3 helps you to find the real uptake and to create a healthy water chemistry. Then you are closer to reality and you can tune it up according to bioindicators. But then you have a reference not just speculation about uptakes. In the other hand, if the water chemistry is close to GSA then you have a algaeless tank.

But you question presumes other fertilization methods. Using MCI I don't suggest adding Po4 and K as a start point. Then, there is not a higher uptake later. You are presuming the later adding of those macros.

I think that they should be added if they are needed.

About Po4. Usually tanks produce enough. If this is not the case, then you will have GSA. Then you do the Po4 protocol and you find out how much you need (you can find it in the complete version of the MCI in Spanish). I had some cases where 4 ppm were neded but, if I test the water just before the light turns off, there was only 0.2. That's perfection! The day after I add Fe, only 0.1 but it will be uptake 100%.

About K. I don't like to add sulfates or chloride to the tank. Usually with the Kno3 there is enough "friendly" K. I explain before why sulphates and chloride are dangerous and how tricky they are with iron. Then, if you don't add K, the N uptake will be the same.

BUT, some plants has priority consumption of Po4, microsorums for example. There is a simple rule that usually works: plants from America usually uptakes more Kno3, plants from Africa and Asia usually uptakes more Po4. If you don't have unnecessary interferences (2 ppm of Fe for example) then you can add the Po4 just over the microsorums with a syringe and it will be uptaken properly.



tsound said:


> second question:
> what if you start the kno3 protocol with very low P levels to begin with?
> say your P bottoms out after 2 days and GSA appears? does that mean your weekly N consumption of the tank is only 2 x 1gr?


That's a good question!
You know, everybody believes that No3 only can be uptake if there is K and Po4. And this is more or less true. But there is not a a directly proportional relationship between the uptakes. Every plant species has a different one.
This is the tank where I developed the MCI some years ago:










I never added K or Po4. Of course there were K in the tap water and the tanks produces Po4.

It was a 15 gallon tank and...let me remember...I used to add about 7 grams per week of Kno3.

This means that, even if you have low Po4, perhaps the Kno3 your plants needs can be bigger than you think.



tsound said:


> sorry if these questions are redundant, but i really do want to understand this, it makes a lot of common sense to me, just i can't grasp it logically.


The MCI is an open debate, so feel free to ask, criticize, propose, give feedback, etc.

Regards


----------



## tsound

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

ok, closer, but still not quite there...

so you start with the kno3 protocol to figure out how much N the tank needs, you know when you get GSA.
then you say once you have GSA you do the PO4 protocol to find out how much P is needed. but during the PO4 protocol you stop dosing N, right? then what algae are you looking for as an indicator for PO4?

what about micros (Fe)? when do you start those?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



tsound said:


> ok, closer, but still not quite there...
> 
> so you start with the kno3 protocol to figure out how much N the tank needs, you know when you get GSA.
> then you say once you have GSA you do the PO4 protocol to find out how much P is needed. but during the PO4 protocol you stop dosing N, right? then what algae are you looking for as an indicator for PO4?


You can find the answer to your question at page 4th of this thread, look for the traslation of the GSA / PO4 protocol .



tsound said:


> what about micros (Fe)? when do you start those?


The MCI born as a control algae method. So, as soon as you solve your algae issues you start adding micros againg. Anyway, I propose to add a little bit of them as I explain before.

I suggest you take a look at the complete version of the MCI in Spanish, the MCI tries to be self explaining.

Regards


----------



## tsound

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

ok, got it, you dose only P until GSA disappears. that gives you your weekly amount.

so in a way GSA is a good thing , in that it is the last step in the chain.

i'm thinking back to the last time i had GSA and it is true, i had no other algae at that point in time.
can't say that i haven't since...

now do you have to re-do the protocols every so often as the tank matures (more plants=higher uptake rates)?
i hope you will translate the whole thing by yourself. the google translator looses me a lot.

thanks


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



tsound said:


> ok, got it, you dose only P until GSA disappears. that gives you your weekly amount.


Almost, you should clean the glass every day until is doen't show up anymore. That's gives you the amount of Po4 your plants really need.

This is very important because, as I explained before, if you add Po4 in excess when you add Fe they became iron phosphate and both became useless.



tsound said:


> now do you have to re-do the protocols every so often as the tank matures (more plants=higher uptake rates)?


Once you know the real consumption of Kno3/Po4, you don't need to do the protocols again. If there is a change in the consumption, GSA will show you. The idea about fertilizing in this way is that you are always in the same place (about the water chemistry). I use the analogy of the blind man, if he stays close to the wall, he always knows where he is.



tsound said:


> i hope you will translate the whole thing by yourself. the google translator looses me a lot.
> thanks


I know that google translator sucks. I am realizing that I should re write some chapters because the debate here will be different than en Dr. Pez. There were a consensus about low Po4 and Fe and a debate about high light and Co2 (Wastald had a huge influence in the Spanish specking forums). Consensus that here doesn't exist, so I will explain it better in the English version.

I found somebody who will translate it for me because I have no time at all,

Regards


----------



## tsound

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Almost, you should clean the glass every day until is doen't show up anymore. That's gives you the amount of Po4 your plants really need.


got it!



Christian_rubilar said:


> This is very important because, as I explained before, if you add Po4 in excess when you add Fe they became iron phosphate and both became useless.


i always thought that only happens at super high concentrations (like when pre-mixing ferts for liquid dosing)?



Christian_rubilar said:


> Once you know the real consumption of Kno3/Po4, you don't need to do the protocols again. If there is a change in the consumption...


won't there most certainly be a change in consumption, when plants get bigger?


Christian_rubilar said:


> , GSA will show you.


please explain why, i don't understand why specifically GSA would show up first?
what about if N bottoms out before P (due to increased plant consumption)? then you would get BGA or something else first?
anyhow, then if the GSA shows up, what do you do? do the po4 protocol again? or just up your P dosing a bit at a time?



Christian_rubilar said:


> I know that google translator sucks. I am realizing that I should re write some chapters because the debate here will be different than en Dr. Pez. There were a consensus about low Po4 and Fe and a debate about high light and Co2 (Wastald had a huge influence in the Spanish specking forums). Consensus that here doesn't exist, so I will explain it better in the English version.
> 
> I found somebody who will translate it for me because I have no time at all,
> 
> Regards


can't wait to read the whole thing!

would you say that your method gives you maximum growth rate of plants?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



tsound said:


> won't there most certainly be a change in consumption, when plants get bigger?


Sure, and when you cut them. There are a dynamic balance, with this protocols you will know very well the way that your tanks works soon. So after that you can handle this variation easily.



tsound said:


> please explain why, i don't understand why specifically GSA would show up first?
> what about if N bottoms out before P (due to increased plant consumption)? then you would get BGA or something else first?


N03 can not be consumed without P and K. The way I propose to fertilizing you will not be out of No3 first. Po4 will be out first always. Even the relationship between them is not directly proportional there is a relationship, different in each tank, depending of the plants combination.

Different imbalances produces different algae. If you run out of No3 you will probably have cianobacteria. This usually happened when you have glosso.

You can have different kind of BGA depending of an imbalance related to Fe, Ca, Po4, lack of Co2, etc. You can find this diferent imbalances relationship at the MCI. We had identified the most common algae there.



tsound said:


> anyhow, then if the GSA shows up, what do you do? do the po4 protocol again? or just up your P dosing a bit at a time?


You do the Po4 protocol only once, after that youy tune up your dosing a little up.



tsound said:


> would you say that your method gives you maximum growth rate of plants?


I used to cultivate aquarium plants as a way of living. I did it under water. For me was very important to have high grow rates and no algae bloom. I had a small place, so efficiency was a priority for me.
I think that to talk about high growth rates is a debate over, this argument is very important only if you are comparing the Wastald's method with any other else.
I propose a method with a long terms balance, and high growth rates.

Regards


----------



## tsound

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

i am understanding more and more, thanks!
i really hope you will have the whole thing translated soon. i would like to try it, but would need to read and understand the whole, comprehensive thing first.
maybe translate and post here the part about the different algae-indicators and related protocols first?
what's the protocol with thread-algae (long, single strands)?

in one prior post you mentioned a 12h tropical day, do you suggest a 12h photoperiod with your system?


----------



## tsound

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

michael (EDIT: i mean Christian, of course, sorry), are you still around?


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

He's away on vacation for a week or two.


----------



## Nevermore

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Am I correct in my understanding that what is being presented here is only applicable if my light is 3 watts/gallon or more? Is there any part of this that can be useful for combatting GDA in a 2 watt/gallon T5HO tank?

Thanks!


----------



## SniperLk

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> It was a 15 gallon tank and...let me remember...I used to add about 7 grams per week of Kno3.
> 
> This means that, even if you have low Po4, perhaps the Kno3 your plants needs can be bigger than you think.


7 grams per week ? !!! That's 75ppm of NO3 every week, about twice what EI recommends which is already a lot.

:faint2::faint2:


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Nevermore said:


> Am I correct in my understanding that what is being presented here is only applicable if my light is 3 watts/gallon or more? Is there any part of this that can be useful for combatting GDA in a 2 watt/gallon T5HO tank?
> 
> Thanks!


When I wrote the MCI I suggested to use the method with no les than 1 watt per litre, this is about 4 watts/gallon. The feedback showed me that the MCI works with less light only if you have a lot of plants. The only difference is that it will take more time because your tank is slower. It has been succesfully used with 2 watts/gallon.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



SniperLk said:


> 7 grams per week ? !!! That's 75ppm of NO3 every week, about twice what EI recommends which is already a lot.
> 
> :faint2::faint2:


Well, the idea is that every tank is different and the Kno3 protocol shows you the real consumption of your tank. For this reason I critize those methods that propose ¨add 1 spoon of this, half spoon of that¨ because we are feeding plants instead of glass tanks. The ammount of Kno3 that is proposed at the EI can be a lot or not enough depending of your plants, light, Co2, etc.
In this tank I used to add 6 gramms a day (54 ppm) of Kno3 when I had glosso or I had ciano:








But when I changed the glosso for a sp. plant alike HC from the misiones jungle:








the ammount of Kno3 was smaller, 4 gramms a day every day.

In the other hand, as you already probably read, I critice adding 1 ppm or more of Fe and Po4. I believe that this is useless and produces interferences. Probably what happend is that he nedded 70 ppm to induce Po4 to zero. And it is probably that after that, if he doesn´t add over 0.2 ppm of Po4 and 0.1 ppm of Fe, then the comsumption of Kno3 will be smaller.

Esencially, it is interesting how this little experiments can teach us how does our aquariums works. You know, if a ¨theory¨ asserts something and facts show you something different, then that theory must be abandoned.

Regards

pd: I ´am arriving to the US past tomorrow but I will be for the Next 6 week in the contry side with little chances to check internet more that once a week


----------



## Aquaticz

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hello,
I am dosing two tanks a 70 gallon & a 55gallon. Dosing three months. I started dosing 20 ml of a 0.7 ppm solution. now three months later I am dosing 14 ml in the 70 gal & 12 ml in the 55 gal. I re mixed the solutions so 1 PPM = .5 nitrate. I test on a regular basis. My teting shows that I will need to up the KN03.I can barely keep nitrites at 10 PPM. At at one time the reading would have been much higher due to less comsumption and fewer plants. 
This means it is time for me to bump it up!
I'll probably add an additional 3 ml, then test and see where I go from there.

Still learning myself but thought this was worthwhile info.


----------



## SniperLk

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Well, the idea is that every tank is different and the Kno3 protocol shows you the real consumption of your tank. For this reason I critize those methods that propose ¨add 1 spoon of this, half spoon of that¨ because we are feeding plants instead of glass tanks. The ammount of Kno3 that is proposed at the EI can be a lot or not enough depending of your plants, light, Co2, etc.
> In this tank I used to add 6 gramms a day (54 ppm) of Kno3 when I had glosso or I had ciano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the other hand, as you already probably read, I critice adding 1 ppm or more of Fe and Po4. I believe that this is useless and produces interferences. Probably what happend is that he nedded 70 ppm to induce Po4 to zero. And it is probably that after that, if he doesn´t add over 0.2 ppm of Po4 and 0.1 ppm of Fe, then the comsumption of Kno3 will be smaller.
> 
> Esencially, it is interesting how this little experiments can teach us how does our aquariums works. You know, if a ¨theory¨ asserts something and facts show you something different, then that theory must be abandoned.


That's still a lot 
I'm quite amazed that you can add 54ppm of NO3- weekly without having any build up. If I am, it's because I've seen a lot of tanks as planted as the one you're showing, with owners saying that they're using TPN+ only and dosing according to Tropica instructions. That means no more than 7ppm of NO3 per week.


----------



## Aquaticz

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

removed


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Aquaticz said:


> Update - I did add 4 ml to the 70 gal & 3 ml to the 55 gal. I tested 1/2 hour later and my actions raised the nitrates another 10 ppm for a total of 20 ppm.
> 
> Question; I know you are supposed alternate when using EI, one day ferts the next trace emements.
> Would 12 hours be long enough to wait after fertilizing to add them?


I think you should open a new thread. Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...*



SniperLk said:


> That's still a lot
> I'm quite amazed that you can add 54ppm of NO3- weekly without having any build up. If I am, it's because I've seen a lot of tanks as planted as the one you're showing, with owners saying that they're using TPN+ only and dosing according to Tropica instructions. That means no more than 7ppm of NO3 per week.


Depends. The idea behind the MCI is to have barely nothing in the water column. With the Kno3 protocol you can add exactly what you need and between 2.5 to 5 ppm will be in the water after plant uptake. In some cases you will need to add 70 ppm, in others 10 ppm. But the test is the ciano esencially, because if you run off Kno3 you'll got it.

About Tropica, well, they sell plants, if you add 7 ppm plants will survive for sure but you will need to buy a lot of them.
In the other hand, the MCI is a fertilizing and algae control method.
Regards


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Christian_rubilar,

I just wanted to thank you for an excellent thread! I have been fighting GDA for several months, and it seemed to be getting worse and worse. Although I am only running 2 WPG I decided to give your MCI a try. I am on my third week but still dosing 2 grams of KNO3 daily in my 45 gallon tank. My plants, which used to grow well, are thriving (including my first flower on an Anubias barteri var. Nana)! But the best part is I have seen little to no GDA in the last week or so. I will continue and see how this concludes, but so far I am very, very, happy! Thank you!


----------



## Aquaticz

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

removed


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

The generic protocol of the Kno3 looks for reduce Po4 to zero. It's easy when you don't add more than 0.2 ppm a week of Po4. This is the way people used to add Po4 at www.drpez.com which is like APC but in Spanish. I realize that the situation is quite different in APC because almost everybody feels natural to add 1 ppm of po4 or more. In the other hand, the feedback you guys gave me shows that many of you used commercial substrates only.

1) If you have a high level of Po4, then you should add potassium sulfate with the Kno3 in order to accelerate the Po4 consumption. 6 ppm should be enough because the main idea is that Po4 and potassium sulfate should be uptaken but some no3 should prevail.

2) About the substrates, I began to try the commercial substrates this year when I moved to NYC and I was very disappointed. Even many of them has clay, when the clay is cooked it loses a huge % of it's CEC capacity.

Even if you didn't reach the GSA, the GDA is gone, great! Now you know that you should add less Po4.

Regards


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Christian

I have read the article on drpez quite a few times. I also followed your debate with Tom on that forum. I have now read this thread and I am very impressed. I have a couple of questions for you, if you have the time to answer them.

Firstly, let me give you some information. I live in South Africa along the south coast. We have very soft tap water, 1.6kh and about 3gh. In my tank I have 3.3WPG of T5HO light and I am note sure as to how much my CO2 is. Let me just say that it is probably as high as can be without affecting any fish. I keep the ph at 6.5 . In this tank I have a school of cardinal tetras, 8 x P. scalare angelfish and 6 x clown loaches. I keep the temperature at 28 degrees C. I do 50% WC weekly.

I am using a locally formulated fertilizer product designed for the soft water conditions found here. It contains no NO3 or PO4. I do not add any NO3 or PO4 either.

What I find is that after large WC I get GSA after about 2 days. So it makes no sense to me to add KNO3 as a protocol, because I get to the GSA point after 2 days. Then for the rest of the week GSA continues until I clean it on day 7 when I do WC.

According to what I understand from this thread, I will need to increase PO4. Is this true? However, during this time, I also have some GDA on the older plant leaves (and very little bit on the glass). It could also be something that is not GDA, but looks similar. I also have a little bit of BBA (the one that looks like a black spot) on older anubias leaves. It does not seem to be spreading, so I am assuming it is dead and under control. Occasionally, I get a thin biofilm, even though my surface aggitation is fairly good. I also sometimes get the short green hair algae, although mine is more brown-grey than green.

I am confused. Why do I get GSA and GDA (if this is in fact GDA) together? This does not make sense at all. Perhaps tonight I can take a picture and post it here.

Regards
Laure


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Laure,

1) In my opinion the big issue about GDA is that it is related to a complex imbalance (Ca+Mg). Usually it can be solved reducing the Po4 and Ca or adding more Mg, depends.

You mentioned a fertilizer especially designed for soft water. It probably has Ca, perhaps Mg and probably the ratio they use is 4:1 because this is the ratio generally accepted as the right one. In my experiences 1:4 works better.

Is there any chance you can give us the formula?

2) About the Kno3 generic protocol, you mentioned that you need only two days to reach GSA. It means that this is the amount of kno3 your tank needs per week. So, add this in 7 days/dozes.
You don't need to add Po4. If you do it, then the Kno3 should be added proportionally (10:1).

3) About the different algae you mentioned, there is a dynamic imbalance in your aquarium. When I propose to add Kno3 looking for GSA this is to avoid what is happening to you. If you are always close to GSA the your water chemistry is always the same and became predictable.

I think you should begin to add Kno3.

About Co2, I explain in the MDC (MCI) how to find the real maximum that your fish can tolerate without risk. Just apply the method I propose there instead of assuming you have enough Co2.

Regards
Christian


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Christian

Thank you for the response. The fertilizer was developed by a Professor of Biochemistry at a local university. He is quite a respected man in fish circles and has written many articles for international fish keeping magazines and scientific publications. It is understandable that he would not want to make public the formula of his fertilizer.

What I can tell you is that it consists of 2 separate bottles. One is for trace mixes and the other for a gh booster type mix, also containing potassium. There is no NO3 or PO4 in either of these mixes. The fertilizer is aimed at people who keep primarily fish and then also want to keep them in a planted tank. In other words, there is no sulphate, copper or anything harmful to fish in this mix. The amounts you fertilize is also much less than for example EI, so that the fish don't swim around in a "fertilizer bath". But the amounts has been carefully worked out scientifically to provide plants with the minimum required elements as well as taking into account that we have soft water here and so it needs to add Ca and Mg. I do not know the ratio. May I ask how you came to the conclusion the Ca:Mg is better in 1:4 ratio?

My argument is that I do not add any NO3 and yet it measures 12.5ppm with a Tetra test kit consistently throughout the week. Towards the end of the week it goes up to 20ppm. I understand that this level of NO3 is produced by my biofilter due to fish load. I have a 300L tank, so what I described to you is not really a high fish load. In fact, I would consider it a fairly low fishload. Most of the fish are not fully grown adults yet.

I think what I have is probably NO3 to PO4 imbalance, with the PO4 higher than a 10:1 ratio. So I can probably dose NO3 to get the correct balance, but would I not have too much NO3 then? I have quite a few fast growing plants:
* Limnophila indica
* Ceratopteris Cornuta
* Riccia Fluitans
* Rotala Wallichii

I also have some medium and slow growers
* Ammannia Gracilis
* Anubias barteri v. nana
* Echinodorus bartii
* Echinoduros osiris rubra

The tank is quite heavily planted. Now that I've given you more information, do you have any ideas? Along with the GSA, I get this algae on the older leaves of Ammannia Gracilis:









Here is a picture of the tank:










Please excuse the quality of the pictures, I just took them in a big hurry. I really don't have too many algae problems. Just a few small things I want to fix because I like it to be algae free. And also when I see some algae I want to fix the problem before it becomes a major bloom. And most importantly, I am trying to understand all the science behind the aquatic hobby.

Regards
Laure


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Laure,

1) I don't see GDA. Please take a look at the MDC that you can find at Dr.Pez and look for this one:

"A.3. ALGAS VERDE TAPIZANTES CORTAS
Tapizan las hojas como un césped corto y tupido. Las echinodorus suelen ser las más atacadas.
Aparentemente se deben a un déficit en la filtración biológica, probablemente ligada a la presencia de amonio. Yo las he tenido a partir que vendí mi canister y se fueron cuando me entregaron el nuevo. En este sentido, Wastald generó la idea de que en acuarios plantados no es necesaria la filtración biológica sino solo meramente mecánica y me permitido discentir con la autora. Tal vez ello sea así en low tech pero con un poco más de luz esa regla no parece aplicarse."

You should improve you filtration and/or have less fish. Glossostigma elationoides uptakes a lot of No3.

2) About the fertilizer, well, I don't like to use secret formulas of macros. It's up to you. My advice is to use a ratio 4:1 Mg:Ca.

About it, I read here about the ratio 4:1 some years ago. I tried it and I have several issues with red algae. You can see pictures of them at the MCI.

In those days I was using and selling a fertilizer or micros, K and MG and It works great. I had issues with only a few plants because I was not adding Ca: rotala macrandra was one of them.

Using that fertilizer with soft water and no Ca I realized that the ratio 4:1 Mg:Ca works better.

3) Your tank seems to be about 60 cms high. In that case the watt/gallon ratio doesn't work. If I am right you should use the rules of low tech aquariums and fertilizing with potassium sulphatte.

Regards
Christian


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Laure,
> 
> I don't see GDA.


Yes that picture was taken 1 day after water change, so the glass is nice and clean!



Christian_rubilar said:


> Your tank seems to be about 60 cms high. In that case the watt/gallon ratio doesn't work. If I am right you should use the rules of low tech aquariums and fertilizing with potassium sulphatte


From top of substrate to surface is 47cm. I try to avoid using any fertilizers with sulphate, as I don't believe this is good for the ecosystem. The mix that I use, as said are 2 bottles. One for micros and one for macros. The bottle for macros contain potassium. I will ask the professor who developed the fertilizer to possibly explain to me to ratio of Mg:Ca. I do know him personally and he is very involved on local South African forums.

I am planning to add a second external cannister filter to my filtration system. I have noted that the particular algae you refer to is linked to a pressence of NH4 or possible NO2. I find that hard to believe that I have any of those, as my test kits report 0ppm. But I also know that test kits can be unreliable and algae and plants do not lie...

As soon as I know the ratio of Mg:Ca then I will report back here

Thank you very much for your assistance so far.

Regards
Laure


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Lauren, the watts/gallon formula is related to the high of the tank not the water column. You have less light than you think and this is your issue. The dozing of the fertilizer you are using is too high, you should use 1/3 or less. In a tank like yours the best is to use HQI.

The main idea behind the MCI is that you are fertilizing your plants under certain conditions of light, Co2, water, etc instead of a 120 litters tank. Then you should reach the real uptake of your plants.

About No2 & NH4, the tests can read only what your algae didn't uptake. This is the reason why they are so tricky. TB is right when he criticized them because of they lack of reliability but there is this other issue I mentioned you too.

About the Ca:Mg ratio, what about if you stop using it for a couple of weeks?

Regards
Christian


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Lauren, the watts/gallon formula is related to the high of the tank not the water column. You have less light than you think and this is your issue.


Hi Christian
It is very interesting that you say this. My tank is 150cm x 45cm with a height from top of substrate to water surface of 47cm. I have the following light, from back to front:
36W T8 Philips Fluora (plant grow light) 1500 lumen
54W T5 Sylvania 865 4600 lumen
54W T5 Philips 840 5000 lumen
54W T5 Sylvania 865 4600 lumen
54W T5 Sylvania 865 4600 lumen

This works out to a total of 20300 lumen over a surface area of 6750 square cm, or 3 lumen per square cm. I am sure there are many aquarists here with similar light that also think they have high light. I'd like to hear their comments regarding this statement.

I admit that HQI will be better, but unfortunatly that is not an option for me (price and availability in South Africa and also is it a closed hood tank). If you look at the Limnophila at the back you can see how far the leaf nodes are from each other. That is an indication the light is too high for this plant. What I will actually do is install a perspex filter above the limnophila to filter the light so that it is not so high and the plant can grow more dense. If you look at the Ammannia, you will see the growth is nice and pink, which is to me an indication the light is sufficient. The leaves with the algae on are older leaves and they are emersed form, which is how I bought this plant. The Ceratopteris Cornuta is about the maximum size quoted by any book or website.

What I do know for sure is that with T5 the penetration to the substrate is not as good as HQI. I agree with you that more light will be better, but I don't think that the light is the problem for the plants in this tank. They are all growing well. What is probably true, as you mentioned, is that I need to balance the light and the fertilizer. So perhaps I should use less, as you said.



Christian_rubilar said:


> About the Ca:Mg ratio, what about if you stop using it for a couple of weeks?


I will try this over the next few weeks and let you know the results. I have asked for the ratio of Mg:Ca in the fertilizer mix and I am awaiting the response.

Thank you for the assistance.
Regards
Lauré


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I insist, if you read the MCD (MCI), the chapter about light, you will see that I explain that I choose this formula because it is simple, as simple as vague. For this reason I propose to use correctives. One of them is related to to the high of the aquarium wich should be calculated using the high of the glass instead of the water column:

"Cuando se mide la iluminación de un acuario en watt por litro se esta siendo tan inexacto como claro. En efecto, existen otras formas mucho más precisas de medir la luz proporcionada a las plantas ya sea en lúmenes, PAR o CRI pero utilizaremos la fórmula de los watt/l en función de su sencillez. Sin embargo, le haremos algunos correctivos de manera tal de tratar de lograr la mayor precisión posible sin que ello sea en desmedro de la claridad.

En líneas generales se dice que las plantas requieren al menos 0.5 w/l y en realidad esto debe leerse como que es lo mínimo indispensable para que plantas faciles sobrevivan y crezcan un poco. Sin embargo, nuestra meta es un poco más ambiciosa en tanto pretendemos su metabolismo este funcionando al 100%, por eso es que recomendamos 1 w/l. Como yo no habia probado este metodo con menos luz durante mucho tiempo no recomende su uso en acuarios menos iluminados. Sin embargo, del feedback de los ultimos dos anios surgio que muchas personas han utilizado exitosamente este sistema con acuarios menos iluminados (hasta 0.7 watt/l). De todas maneras, les recomendamos que mejoren la iluminacion.

Como adelanté, esta regla tiene correctivos. El primero de ellos es que esto sólo es asi en acuarios de hasta 40/45 cms de alto. Los tubos comunes TLD tienen poca penetración en el agua y si el acuario fuese más profundo no llegaría un nivel aceptable de luz al fondo. En casos de acuarios profundos, entonces, se recomienda el uso de mercurio halogenado.

El segundo correctivo, consiste en que se recomienda el uso de tubos compactos PL en la parte delantera del acuario ya que de esa manera se logra mayor penetración en el agua y así las plantas tapizantes puedan crecer sin dificultades. La diferencia entre TLD (los tubos comunes) y PLL es bien grande ya que mientras los primeros aportan 30 watt en 1 metro, puede ponerse dos PLL de 36 watts en el mismo espacio.

El tercer correctivo tiene relación a la calidad de la luz. En general se recomienda la combinación de atrás hacia delante de grolux, 840, 950 y PLL 954 delante de todo. En esto tengo una observación: las plantas tapizantes requieren de "cantidad" de luz y no de "calidad" por lo que me parece un gasto innecesario poner un tubo caro como el PLL 954. En su lugar recomiendo el PLL 865 que cuesta casi la mitad y da excelentes resultados con las tapizantes".

If your plants are alive and grow that doesn't mean you have enough ligh. The key about algae control is to use the plants as the filter of your aquarium. This is the basic idea behind the MCI. But for make this happend you need no less that 4 watts/gallon in tanks until 45 cms high. Remember that we are not talking about plant care, we are talking about algae control. It needs an extra, extra light than plant care, extra Co2 than plant surviving, etc.

Ceratopteris is one of the most easiest plants you can find, it is no parameter of nothing. You can have this plant healthy without Co2, fertilizing and with 1 watts/gallon.

About the limnophila, I don't think that you have too much light. The mistake you are making is looking at the upper part or your aquarium. Look close to the substrate because light and water is a matter of penetration.

On the other hand, you don't have too many plants, this is another reason for adding less fertilizer.

Probably the best for you would be to put pll in the front part of your aquarium, this way you can have a meadow.

I saw some plants on the ground, I can't recognize them, what are they?

Regards


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> I insist, if you read the MCD (MCI), the chapter about light, you will see that I explain that I choose this formula because it is simple, as simple as vague. For this reason I propose to use correctives. One of them is related to to the high of the aquarium wich should be calculated using the high of the glass instead of the water column:


Hi Christian

Thank you for the reply. Yes I did read that section quite thoroughly on a few occasions. I don't understand the reason why you use the total height of the glass. What is the purpose? There is no need for light to penetrate beyond the top of the substrate.

I also note that you mentioned that people have had success with 0.8w/l, and if you work it out, my lights are 0.84w/l. In this thread you also concede that good results with MCI can be achieved with even lower light, although you do recommend the light to be upgraded. I think the reason for this is because GSA can only be induced under high light conditions, and without inducing GSA, one cannot successfully arrive at this controlled imbalance point. Am I correct in this assumption?

Nevertheless, I respect your thoughts that I may lack some light. I also understand the importance of light penetration and intensity, where PLL and HQI is much more intense than TLD. At this point I am unable to upgrade, so I will need to adjust the rest of the parameters to create a balance.



Christian_rubilar said:


> About the limnophila, I don't this think that you have too much light.


Every single plant website will tell me that Limnophila is a medium light plant and under high light it grows with big spaces between the leaf nodes. But, once again, I don't want to make this the main issue of this discussion. We should be concentrating on the nutrient balance.



Christian_rubilar said:


> I saw some plants on the grownd, I can't recognize them, what are they?


On the left there is a Riccia Fluitans carpet, held down with a nylon net. Other ground plants include Cryptocorybe petchii and Cryptocoryne wendtii "tropika". I actually want to replace the Riccia carpet with something easier. This is a lot of work and although it looks nice and different, I want to try Marsilea.

Since we started our discussion I have not had any algae on the glass this week. I increased dosing by adding KNO3 every second day. I believe it seems my N ratio is now almost balanced. I will continue to increase KNO3 until I get GSA again.

My main concern is now to get rid of the hair algae on the lower Ammannia leaves, as shown in the picture on the previous post. The lower leaves are emersed growth, as that is how I bought the plant. Clearly they will eventually die in submerged conditions. Do you suggest I just cut them off or leave them? If I cut them, then at least I can get rid of most of that hair algae! 

Regards
Lauré


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Laure said:


> Thank you for the reply. Yes I did read that section quite thoroughly on a few occasions. I don't understand the reason why you use the total height of the glass. What is the purpose? There is no need for light to penetrate beyond the top of the substrate.


Well, I realize that there is a lot of misunderstanding about light and the watt/gallon rule. If we talk about the water column we are being more accurate for sure, but it is a mistake to look for accuracy about light. If we do that, there will be a lot of people looking for the less possible light (efficiency) and it won't work. There are too many variables in game and my conclusion is that accuracy is a myth that only make people to deceive their self. The formula I propose with the correctives works as a beginning. The way plants "behave" will tell us know is light is enough for them. But the rule I propose I know that make the MDC works.



Laure said:


> I also note that you mentioned that people have had success with 0.8w/l, and if you work it out, my lights are 0.84w/l. In this thread you also concede that good results with MCI can be achieved with even lower light, although you do recommend the light to be upgraded.


Yes and not. They had 0.8 w/l in tanks until 40 cms high. Yours is higher and this is not a minor issue.
Essencially I try to give tools to help people to realize where are they about light. If you can do a proper diagnosis then you can solve your problems easier. But if you think you have the right light because of the "accuracy" of the method you use, then you won't be able to solve your issue.



Laure said:


> I think the reason for this is because GSA can only be induced under high light conditions, and without inducing GSA, one cannot successfully arrive at this controlled imbalance point. Am I correct in this assumption?


The GSA is the result of plants that has used all the Po4 and then you reach the GSA. You can reach them with less light but you need to compensate the "slower" metabolism of your plants with more amount of them and using plants more demanding. In your case you have a few plants and they are no demanding. At the MDC I suggest to have a meadow because they means a lot of plants, then you have a bigger filter. I propose glosso as a No3 high consumer, marsilea crenata as a Po4 high consumer, etc. 
I suggest you add plants as lagarosiphin magadascariensis or major, heteranthera zosterifolia among many others.
If you have a reef you probably will have a sump with algae for water filtration. The idea is the same, you should have a lot of plants in your aquarium for water filtration.



Laure said:


> Nevertheless, I respect your thoughts that I may lack some light. I also understand the importance of light penetration and intensity, where PLL and HQI is much more intense than TLD. At this point I am unable to upgrade, so I will need to adjust the rest of the parameters to create a balance.


Each aquarium has a different balance. You can reach ir under very different conditions. At the MCI I try to standardize the light, Co2, fertilizing because then if you have a problem or a doubt, you will have the experience of a lot of people who has aquariums under similar conditions.
The MDC is only a diagnosis tool with some ways to solve the most common problems. Now you know how to deal with your imbalance.



Laure said:


> Every single plant website will tell me that Limnophila is a medium light plant and under high light it grows with big spaces between the leaf nodes. But, once again, I don't want to make this the main issue of this discussion. We should be concentrating on the nutrient balance.


Well, with more light there is a lack of zinc for this plant (each plant has different priority consumptios), this is the reason of the big spaces between the leaf nodes.
But it is simplyier, if you still have this plant and you don't hate it, then you don't have enough light because under high light it grows too much.



Laure said:


> On the left there is a Riccia Fluitans carpet, held down with a nylon net. Other ground plants include Cryptocorybe petchii and Cryptocoryne wendtii "tropika". I actually want to replace the Riccia carpet with something easier. This is a lot of work and although it looks nice and different, I want to try Marsilea.


Marsilea crenata is an excellent option.



Laure said:


> Since we started our discussion I have not had any algae on the glass this week. I increased dosing by adding KNO3 every second day. I believe it seems my N ratio is now almost balanced. I will continue to increase KNO3 until I get GSA again.


Great!!!!



Laure said:


> My main concern is now to get rid of the hair algae on the lower Ammannia leaves, as shown in the picture on the previous post. The lower leaves are emersed growth, as that is how I bought the plant. Clearly they will eventually die in submerged conditions. Do you suggest I just cut them off or leave them? If I cut them, then at least I can get rid of most of that hair algae!


You can use gluta (excell) or H202. Cut them off is an option too.

Regards


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,
I cannot find your method for determining proper levels of CO2? What is that method?
Thanks,
Bob

I found the method for determining CO2 level...utilizing behavior of shrimp


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian:

I have GSA on my side glass panels and coating my Anubias leaves. I have GDA on my front glass panel. I have approx. 2.7 W/gal of lighting ([6] 55W PC's for 125 gal tank.) Since I have both types of algae (incl. filamentous algae growth, possibly Cladaphora)

What do I do in this case as I thought that the water chemistry conditions that favor GSA are not favorable to GDA??? Do I begin using MCI with the KNO3 protocol, or the PO4 protocol?

Bob


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



BobinCA1946 said:


> Christian:
> 
> I have GSA on my side glass panels and coating my Anubias leaves. I have GDA on my front glass panel. I have approx. 2.7 W/gal of lighting ([6] 55W PC's for 125 gal tank.) Since I have both types of algae (incl. filamentous algae growth, possibly Cladaphora)
> 
> What do I do in this case as I thought that the water chemistry conditions that favor GSA are not favorable to GDA??? Do I begin using MCI with the KNO3 protocol, or the PO4 protocol?
> 
> Bob


Bob, you should make a water change of 50%. 
Clean both algae and see what happen during the week.
Use the Kno3 protocol to reach the GSA and the amount of Kno3 you need per week. Is you have both it means that you have one imbalance at the begining of the week and the opposite one at the end. Finding the uptake of Kno3 you will find a balance and with it a lack of algae.
Regards

pd: I apologize but I have no time at all to translate from Spanish the MCI until winter.


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Each aquarium has a different balance. You can reach ir under very different conditions. At the MCI I try to standardize the light, Co2, fertilizing because then if you have a problem or a doubt, you will have the experience of a lot of people who has aquariums under similar conditions.
> The MDC is only a diagnosis tool with some ways to solve the most common problems. Now you know how to deal with your imbalance.


Christian, thank you I appreciate your comments. I do understand that MCI requires certain basic things to be standadized so that the only variable is the fertilization. Unfortunately, in real life, people have some constraints. It could be space, time or money, or a combination of factors. As a result, we might not achieve 100% success trying to following MCI because we do not have all the prerequisites in place, but perhaps it might be worth our while to at least try and achieve some success? Or do you propose that without these prerequisites in place there will be no success trying to follow MCI?



Christian_rubilar said:


> Well, with more light there is a lack of zinc for this plant (each plant has different priority consumptios), this is the reason of the big spaces between the leaf nodes.
> But it is simplyier, if you still have this plant and you don't hate it, then you don't have enough light because under high light it grows too much.


Trust me, I am looking to replace it!  I trim 25cm per week. I am actually looking for something with fine leaves and a bright green colour. Perhaps Myriophyllum? Or can you suggest something?



Christian_rubilar said:


> You can use gluta (excell) or H202.


I have some concern regarding both these methods. Neither are safe for fish. What is your opinion on the oxidizing effect of H2O2 on the slime coat and the gills of fish? Surely you can't use this product without causing any long-term damage to delicate fish?

Furthermore, gluteraldehyde is also not good for fish and in my opinion should be avoided as a long-term option.

I am probably going to just trim the leaves, but the idea is that I need to ensure that this algae does not come back. Perhaps when I get my new cannister filter next week I will increase my biological filtration and, as you say, this may stop this type of algae from blooming.

Regards
Lauré


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Laure said:


> Christian, thank you I appreciate your comments. I do understand that MCI requires certain basic things to be standadized so that the only variable is the fertilization. Unfortunately, in real life, people have some constraints. It could be space, time or money, or a combination of factors. As a result, we might not achieve 100% success trying to following MCI because we do not have all the prerequisites in place, but perhaps it might be worth our while to at least try and achieve some success? Or do you propose that without these prerequisites in place there will be no success trying to follow MCI?


The prerrequisites are the north in the compass, that's it. The idea is to be as closer as possible. I know that it works if you fullfit the prerrequisites, you should try if it works under your aquarium conditions.



Laure said:


> Trust me, I am looking to replace it!  I trim 25cm per week. I am actually looking for something with fine leaves and a bright green colour. Perhaps Myriophyllum? Or can you suggest something?


I can suggest you the plants I already mentioned. You they grow 25 cms a week, keep them in the aquarium, then you will have a better filter. You need more amount of plants, not variety, more amount.



Laure said:


> I have some concern regarding both these methods. Neither are safe for fish. What is your opinion on the oxidizing effect of H2O2 on the slime coat and the gills of fish? Surely you can't use this product without causing any long-term damage to delicate fish?


Depends of the dosis. I used to bred wild apistogrammas, are they delicate enough?
I sugest to used them in very low dosis just over the algae not in the water column.



Laure said:


> Furthermore, gluteraldehyde is also not good for fish and in my opinion should be avoided as a long-term option.


I never talk about long term option with gluta or H30. The should be used only after the algae blowm is over and you reach GSA. The idea is to used the just to kill the algae that remains if you cannot cut the leaves.



Laure said:


> I am probably going to just trim the leaves, but the idea is that I need to ensure that this algae does not come back. Perhaps when I get my new cannister filter next week I will increase my biological filtration and, as you say, this may stop this type of algae from blooming.


Well, even if the protocol doesn't work because of the lack of light you can use the knowledge of the MCI tu find you own balance. Know you know how to find the proper amount of Kno3 and that will help you to have an stable balance. Increasing biological filtration will help you too. Reducing the fertilizing you were using too. The MCI is only a box tool, you use it in the way that it works for you, there aren't rigid rules.

By the way, I was working about the fertilization chapter last night, so this week I will update the Spanish version.

Regards


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Christian

I meant to ask you earlier but you seem to have some considerable experience in terms of what each plant requires. You mentioned in your articles I read that for example Marsilea is a priority consumer of PO4, while Glosso is a priority consumer of NO3. Do you have a list of common aquatic plants that:
1. Are priority consumers of PO4 
2. Are priority consumers of NO3
3. Needs more Mg than most
4. Needs more Ca than most (for example Rotala Macrandra)

If this is possible to provide such a list I would really appreciate it

Regards
Lauré


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Laure said:


> Hi Christian
> 
> I meant to ask you earlier but you seem to have some considerable experience in terms of what each plant requires. You mentioned in your articles I read that for example Marsilea is a priority consumer of PO4, while Glosso is a priority consumer of NO3. Do you have a list of common aquatic plants that:
> 1. Are priority consumers of PO4
> 2. Are priority consumers of NO3
> 3. Needs more Mg than most
> 4. Needs more Ca than most (for example Rotala Macrandra)
> 
> If this is possible to provide such a list I would really appreciate it
> 
> Regards
> Lauré


All that I know is at the MCI. I just update it, in fact I re wrote it. I suggest you take a look at it.

Regards


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

I started with the KNO3 protocol on Saturday. Did a 50% water change followed by a dose of 1/2 tsp. of KNO3. (dosage for 125 gal. tank). I scrubbed off any GSA from the side glass panels. Today, Tuesday morning I think I am beginning to see the first growths of GSA. That means that 3 daily applications of 1/2 tsp. of KNO3 were necessary to cause GSA. Does this mean that, for future dosing, I only dose 1 & 1/2tsp "spread" over a weeks period of time?? Do I continue to do 50% H2O changes every week? I am not adding any PO4, or traces at this time. Do I begin to add traces again (CSM+B). Also, I am noticing the beginnings of some tufts of BBA beginning to form on my power head cords located at the top of the water surface.
I use 2 Koralia's for circulation. What do I do about the onset of BBA?

Where is the translation of the MCI located?

REgards,
Bob


----------



## Laure

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Bob

I can tell you and Christian will confirm that BBA is caused by low CO2 or fluctuating CO2. You fix that and BBA goes away.

Christian

Let me look at the MCI thread again. I haven't logged on to that site in over a month.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Bob, the full MCI is in Spanish.
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436

Yes, that is the weekly dozing. Read the MCI, there are the answer to your questions. I wrote there the answer to all the most common question.
Regards


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

I tried to use the Google translator to interpret how to treat the tank for Cladaphora.
Translation was not clear to me. What I "think" I am reading is that you think Cladaphora is caused by low levels of CO2?, or is it that you want me to reduce lighting? And treatment is 4x dosage of Excel?
Is this true?

You have me wishing that I should have taken Spanish in school.

Bob


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Cladophora is related to an imbalance with light and Co2. If you had reach the limit of Co2 and your fish can not tolerate more, then the solution is to reduce it. Usually is a lack of Co2, perhaps there is not enough, you have a to improve the distribution, etc. 
I prefer to remove them manually. 
Regards


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

From your last response, are you indicating that I might be injecting "too much" CO2??
And then you say that the cause is usually not enough CO2?
If I increase my CO2, my Rainbows will start to gasp.
I am confused. And the Cladaphora is spreading.

Bob


----------



## Tex Gal

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Bob. I think he says that Clado is caused by not enough CO2 in reference to the amount of light you have on the tank. Since you can't add more CO2 (fish gasping) then you need to decrease the amount of light. Also manually remove the Clado.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

exactly!
Before reducing light I suggest you improve Co2 distribution. Co2 micro bubbles should go straight where clado is. Are you sure that you are in the edge with Co2? Are you sure your fish has not parasites in their branques?
When I had to reduce light I had 12 watts per gallon.
Regards


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

I have an overflow setup to a sump down below.
In the sump I have my CO2 gas line lead into a submersed powerhead. The gas is then sucked into a line that goes into a reactor, mixed with the water, and is led out under the surface of the water in the sump. It is then pumped back up to the main tank. In the sump the PH of the CO2 enriched water is approx. 6.34. Without CO2, the PH is 7.8. Two plastic returns are located near the surface of the main tank. The CO2 enriched water is returned under the surface with no surface agitation. And there are 2 Koralia powerheads to aid in current/circulation.

Do you recommend a different way to enrich the water and disperse it?
I do not do "misting' of CO2. Is that what you are recommending? If so, what equipment do I need to accomplish this....and will direct misting of CO2 get rid of the Cladophora?

My fish are not suffering from any parasitic infection.
My lighting consists of (6) 55W PC's for 125 gals. Height of tank is 24".
3 Rows of lights, 2 bulbs per row, are located inside the canopy about 4" from the water surface.
Lighting cannot be raised.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



BobinCA1946 said:


> Christian,
> 
> I have an overflow setup to a sump down below.
> In the sump I have my CO2 gas line lead into a submersed powerhead. The gas is then sucked into a line that goes into a reactor, mixed with the water, and is led out under the surface of the water in the sump. It is then pumped back up to the main tank. In the sump the PH of the CO2 enriched water is approx. 6.34. Without CO2, the PH is 7.8. Two plastic returns are located near the surface of the main tank. The CO2 enriched water is returned under the surface with no surface agitation. And there are 2 Koralia powerheads to aid in current/circulation.
> 
> Do you recommend a different way to enrich the water and disperse it?
> I do not do "misting' of CO2. Is that what you are recommending? If so, what equipment do I need to accomplish this....and will direct misting of CO2 get rid of the Cladophora?
> 
> My fish are not suffering from any parasitic infection.
> My lighting consists of (6) 55W PC's for 125 gals. Height of tank is 24".
> 3 Rows of lights, 2 bulbs per row, are located inside the canopy about 4" from the water surface.
> Lighting cannot be raised.


mmmmm, let me try to understand you. You have some kind of wet dry? Well, by analogy of course. I used a wet dry in a 60 (15 gallons) liters aquarium and I needed about 3 bubbles per second to reach proper levels of Co2.

I mentioned at MCI that clado is related to lack of Co2, I think that you confirmed it. Is very difficult to distribute properly the Co2 is you are lossing it constantly.

This is very difficult for me understand inchs, if you could use cms I will really appreciate it.

Regards


----------



## BobinCA1946

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian,

Tank is 54cm high; 61cm deep;
Yes, my tank was originally constructed as a wet/dry system.
I took the bio balls out of the sump. Water passes thru filter floss and then drips down to the water level of the sump. THis is where the de-gassing of the CO2 probably occurs.
Water is re-infused with injected CO2 on right hand side of sump, before it is pumped back up to the main tank.

I have measured the pH in the tank using a PinPoint monitor.
pH is 7.6 when CO2 is off in the evening.
pH is 6.34 when CO2 is on during the day. Using 2 Koralia powerheads for circulation/current.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Well, you answer your self. There is a lack of Co2. The best you can do is stop using the ex wet dry.
Regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hi Christian,

Hope all is well.
I recently set up a 10 gal shrimp tank and have some thread algae (long thin green strands).
How do I get rid of this?
Do I use the KNO3 protocol? It doesnt seem to work - but I dont want to push the NO3 too high because of thge shrimp. I am using Flourish excel in place of CO2.
Regards, Newt


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Newt, I just realize that my prompt answer was lost. Sorry about that. I hope it can still be usefull.

You are right, the kno3 protocol isn't effective under those conditions. The excell by it self is not enough, you should use co2 plus excell. Shrimp has problems at 35 ppm, if you add a safely 25 ppm plus excell your tank will be healthier.

On the other hand, perhaps you should use less light if you prefer To continue with just excell.

Regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks for the response. I was in Aruba and the site was way slow using my netbook and wireless so I didnt bother to look.
I've been doing some reading on thread algae and some places says it is from excess nutrients and others say high iron. I am limiting PO4 and Fe to see if I can starve it as well as excel treatments. I have to pick up another regulator to do CO2. Wish I didnt sell my 5# tank now.


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

OK I have CO2 set up on the tank now. 
I have a 10 gallon shrimp tank with 36watts 6500K CF lighting. Lights on 9 hours a day and CO2 is currently on 12 hours a day. Drop checker on the way.

Plants are Hemianthus callitrichodies, Blyxa japonica, flame moss, peacock moss, dwarf hairgrass, Fissidens fontanus and Subwassertang.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/65457-newt-newt-jr-s-shrimp-tank.html

I have thread and now hair algae. I have been manually removing the algae and only adding KNO3.
I have about 10ppm NO3.

How should I tackle this?


----------



## taekwondodo

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I'm having a very hard time following this thread - at one point I'm reading that we add NO3 until we get GDA (GDA *appears*), at another point I'm reading we add NO3 until GDA *disappears*.

I'm maintaining about 10ppm in the water column (Lamotte) on a fairly continual basis, with good lighting (3x175W HQI over a 6' 125) with good CO2 (pH controlled and excellent pearling on the Riccia).

But GDA is really starting to frustrate me (again).

Is anyone using this successfully on APD to eliminate GDA?

I've never bought into the "lifecycle" theory...


----------



## Zapins

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

In my experience I was able to trigger GDA blooms on 3 separate tanks with the addition of urea. My lights were medium high to high on all tanks and none had GDA before addition of urea, then a week later all tanks got it. Once a bloom is triggered by urea it is maintained by high lights. You can reduce your lighting intensity and duration and it dies off rather quickly. I have never had good luck with the "wait and pray" method.


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



taekwondodo said:


> I'm having a very hard time following this thread - at one point I'm reading that we add NO3 until we get GDA (GDA *appears*), at another point I'm reading we add NO3 until GDA *disappears*.
> 
> I'm maintaining about 10ppm in the water column (Lamotte) on a fairly continual basis, with good lighting (3x175W HQI over a 6' 125) with good CO2 (pH controlled and excellent pearling on the Riccia).
> 
> But GDA is really starting to frustrate me (again).
> 
> Is anyone using this successfully on APD to eliminate GDA?
> 
> I've never bought into the "lifecycle" theory...


I think you need to re-read the KNO3 protocol to eradicate GDA. You dose KNO3 until you get GSA which is the only algae that can survive high NO3 levels. Typically PO4 levels are kept around 0.25ppm or what your tank develops on its own. Your tank also needs to have high light and CO2 for this protocol to work. It does work well. Once you reach GSA you treat with the PO4 protocol.


----------



## taekwondodo

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> I think you need to re-read the KNO3 protocol to eradicate GDA. You dose KNO3 until you get GSA which is the only algae that can survive high NO3 levels. Typically PO4 levels are kept around 0.25ppm or what your tank develops on its own. Your tank also needs to have high light and CO2 for this protocol to work. It does work well. Once you reach GSA you treat with the PO4 protocol.


Is there a summary, in english, somewhere? I've gone through this thread twice, and the translation once...



Newt said:


> You dose KNO3 until you get GSA which is the only algae that can survive high NO3 levels.


The term "High" is relative... I have GDA and until recent addition of PO4, had (nasty and fast) GSA as well...

GSA is now under control, but GDA comes back in 24-48 hours...

- Jeff


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

If you're only at 10ppm of nitrate then I would say you are not even in the ballpark yet.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> OK I have CO2 set up on the tank now.
> I have a 10 gallon shrimp tank with 36watts 6500K CF lighting. Lights on 9 hours a day and CO2 is currently on 12 hours a day. Drop checker on the way.
> 
> Plants are Hemianthus callitrichodies, Blyxa japonica, flame moss, peacock moss, dwarf hairgrass, Fissidens fontanus and Subwassertang.
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/65457-newt-newt-jr-s-shrimp-tank.html
> 
> I have thread and now hair algae. I have been manually removing the algae and only adding KNO3.
> I have about 10ppm NO3.
> 
> How should I tackle this?


Forget the no3 test an go on with the protocol. Co2 as high as posible, 25 ppm with valve plus gluta, that way you can have enough without risking your shirmps.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



taekwondodo said:


> I'm having a very hard time following this thread - at one point I'm reading that we add NO3 until we get GDA (GDA *appears*), at another point I'm reading we add NO3 until GDA *disappears*.
> 
> I'm maintaining about 10ppm in the water column (Lamotte) on a fairly continual basis, with good lighting (3x175W HQI over a 6' 125) with good CO2 (pH controlled and excellent pearling on the Riccia).
> 
> But GDA is really starting to frustrate me (again).
> 
> Is anyone using this successfully on APD to eliminate GDA?
> 
> I've never bought into the "lifecycle" theory...


With HQI the Kno3 protocol is easier. Add double the ammount of Kno3 every day (the standar is 1 gram every 200 littres, add 1 gram every hundred littres per day) until you reach GSA. 
Its important that you begin with low Po4 in water, 0.5 or less, otherwise the first week the GSA will not show up.

On day 7th change 50% of the water tank. Check that the water you are adding has is Po4 free. Here in Brooklyn the tap water has 3 ppm de Po4.

Co2, the riccia perling is not a proper bioindicator for Co2. You probably can add more without risking your fish. The method I suggest at the MCI is to start adding a little more every half an hour until shimp start to behave weird. Then you know that the limit is the amount of the half an hour before this happend. When you finish this little experiment you should move the surface with a filter or one of these machines that makes bubbles (sorry, I don't know the propoer word).

Shimp start be upset at 35 ppm of Co2.

So, GDA is related to an imbalance of Po4 related to No3 and Ca related to Mg.

With the Kno3 protocol you will find the week consumption of Kno3, the amount to need to reach GSA is the amount you should add per week.

If you are fertilizing with Po4, you should reduce it drastically. At the spanish version of the MCI i explain how to reach the real consumption of Po4, using a Po4 protocol similar to the one I explained about Kno3. Once you reach GSA, you add 1 gram of Po4 every 500 gallons every day. Every morning you clean the glases and use them to know when you added enough. The morning there are no new GSA you reach the real amount of Po4 the plants are consuming.

Ca:Mg) I suggest that the proper ratio is 1:4 instead of 4:1.
It means that if you are adding Ca, you should add a lot less because you can't add so much Mg. Anyway, I suggest a protocol adding 0.3 ppm of Mg per day until you reach this algae:









The MCI is in Spanish only. You can download it in word here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/283909133/MDC_2003.doc
(The is a typing mistake in this file, the ratio K:No3 y sugest is 0.5:1)

And the index is the following:

I. Introduction: dispelling myths
II. The EI and and the bioindicators
IIII. prerrequisites for the application of MDC
IV. The method of controlled imbalances
V. Fertilizing approach
VI. Algae control approach
VII. Concluding remarks
VIII. Footnotes to page
IX. Reading (recommended)

I suggest you read chapters III, V and VI. You can use google translator.
Chapter IV is difficult to translate, there I explain why I chose GSA as a reference.

Regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Forget the no3 test an go on with the protocol. Co2 as high as posible, 25 ppm with valve plus gluta, that way you can have enough without risking your shirmps.
> Regards


Thanks for the reply. 
I will go ahead with the KNO3 protocol. 
I have about 75 baby shrimp and havent been dosing F. Excel. I didnt know if the babies would be more sensitive to it than the adults.
I'm still waiting for my drop checker to arrive.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> I will go ahead with the KNO3 protocol.
> I have about 75 baby shrimp and havent been dosing F. Excel. I didnt know if the babies would be more sensitive to it than the adults.
> I'm still waiting for my drop checker to arrive.


I don't know either, you better wait.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



taekwondodo said:


> Is there a summary, in english, somewhere? I've gone through this thread twice, and the translation once...


Is there a translation?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



taekwondodo said:


> The term "High" is relative... I have GDA and until recent addition of PO4, had (nasty and fast) GSA as well...


I think that is proper to talk about imbalance instead of high or low levels. There is no need of high No3 to induce GSA. You only need to induce an imbalance, an small one. When the MCI is well used, you can have GSA with 5 ppm of Kno3 in water but no Po4. There you have the imbalance you need.
Regards


----------



## taekwondodo

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Newt said:


> If you're only at 10ppm of nitrate then I would say you are not even in the ballpark yet.


OK - let me re-state what I think I've re-read...

1) Add NO3 to the point where GSA starts to disappear... This is the "GSA Point". *, **
2) If GSA starts to appear, THEN start to add PO4, but follow Rule 1 first.

* Assumes a very high light tank with excellent CO2....
** What is a typical value we are finding for NO3 at this threshold?

Did I just summarize the entire thread/paper?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



taekwondodo said:


> OK - let me re-state what I think I've re-read...
> 
> 1) Add NO3 to the point where GSA starts to disappear... This is the "GSA Point". *, **
> 2) If GSA starts to appear, THEN start to add PO4, but follow Rule 1 first.
> 
> * Assumes a very high light tank with excellent CO2....
> ** What is a typical value we are finding for NO3 at this threshold?
> 
> Did I just summarize the entire thread/paper?


NO!
When you add only Kno3 is because you are looking for GSA. When you reach it other algae stop bloom or die (algae control approach).
The number of days you added Kno3 tells you how much Kno3 you should add per week (fertilizing approach). If you add 1 gramm of Kno3 per 5 days, the the doze per week is 5 gramms.
Start with this. And read the MCI using google translator.
* Asumes 4 watt/gallon light and excellent Co2.
** Typical value is Po4 zero, If No3 raises that means you Co2/light/plants aren't ok.
Regards


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Well the thread and hair algae are slowly disappearing with the addition of CO2 in my 10 gallon shrimp tank. I only use the Flourish Excel at water change time and I spot treat the algae. I havent lost any babies either.

How is the translated version coming, Christian?


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Alright. GDA has been annoying the crap out of me in my 75 gallon. I have approximately 3 wpg with high co2. So let me try to summarize what i think i've read.

1.) Scrape off any GDA, 50% water change
2.) Add "x" grams of KNO3 each day, until GSA appears.
3.) The total amount of KNO3 added is the weekly amount of KNO3 uptake. 
To find daily dosing, divide this by 7 (days).
4.) To combat GSA, add 1 gram of PO4 (KH2PO4) per 500 gallons each day. 
5.) Scrape GSA off glass every morning. Once GSA ceases to return, this is PO4 uptake. 
To find daily dosing, divide this by 7 (days).

Please confirm if this is correct.

You say to do a water change on day 7 (correct?). My question is if I am in the middle of the PO4 protocol, how can i do the water change without jeopardizing the protocol? Also, after i have the uptakes figured out, should I resume a regular water change schedule?

Someone has asked a similar question to this, but when should I add in CSM+B (micros), MgSO4, and/or K2SO4? If so, in what quantity.

My plants list are as follows: Blyxa Japonica, Bolbitis heudelotii, peacock moss, narrow leaf and regular java fern.


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Christian will tell you he likes to have 4 watts per gallon for it to work well. I have less than this and it works. What is your lighting: watts, type, brand, etc. ? (i.e. 2 x 40 watts T12 GE cool white, + 1 x 54 watt T5HO GE 6500K)
Looks like you have it all correct except step 3. I believe you divide the 7 day total KNO3 by 3 and dose 3 times per week.


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Oh ok. That's even easier. My lighting is 2x t8 3000K 32 watt each (overdriven to around 54 watts), and 2x t8 6500K 32 watt each (overdriven to around 54 watts). Total is around 3 wpg on a 75 gallon. I'm growing bolbitis and java fern, both relatively slow growers, and im getting about 2 inches every other day on the bolbitis. When should i add in the other ferts i described above? And will the lack of full nutrients hurt the plants?


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Its difficult to tell what you get when you overdrive but you probably have enough light to do the KNO3 protocol. You find out rather quickly (1 to 2 weeks) what your KNO3 level is. Dont worry about the PO4 and iron. Christian really likes to have the naturally occurring PO4 in the tank to sustain the balance.
Good Luck. Hopefully he will take a peak at the site. If not shoot him a PM.


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Alrighty. The only thing i'm still confused about is the time of the water change. Do you do one right after KNO3 protocol is done, or what?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Newt, thank you for pushing the envelope, I really needed it.

It took me a long time the translating because I realized I have to rewrite it to make it understandable. Not only for the language, the EI and PPS are very popular here and I have to do a double effort to explain some topics. A completely different aproach to the use of Iron and Po4 are good examples.

I started, give me your feedback about if there is any misunderstood about the translation. I will continue posting it as soon I have more. When it will be finished, I can post the word file so it will be more comfortable for reading. Regards


----------



## Aquaticz

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

WOW what a summation. Thank you Sir
I have read this thread a number of times.
But you last few posts...says it all
Great information- Thank you again


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Dantra said:


> Welcome Christian,
> 
> I use to visit Dr. Pez and still do because I really enjoy the site. I remember you had a debate with Tom Barr about your method. It was an interesting read.
> 
> I also live in Brooklyn and wanted to ask you, for a 18 gallon tank, well planted, what would be a good dosing regimen? I dose based on EI and also dose extra iron.
> 
> Since you also live in Brooklyn I was just wondering how do you handle the very soft water that we have. I have mineralized soil capped with ADA Aquasoil. I use a needle wheel for CO2 delivery and use 2 T5HO 24w bulbs at a time but have 4 total. I sometime use all bulbs that gives me over 5 watts per gallon.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated and I thank you in advance.
> 
> Best regards;
> Dan


Dan, I prefer to answer always here instead of PM because this way It can be helpful for more people.

I was living in Brooklyn last year, now I am back in Buenos Aires. Brooklyn is big, I was living close to Williamsburg Bridge and the water was hard with a high kh and with 3 ppm of Po4. 
Here is the NY water info:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate07.pdf

There isn't an standard fertilizing regime, no mater your water is hard or soft, the procedure is always the same about the Kno3 protocol as a tool to find out the No3 uptaking. The MCI gives you the tool to find the uptake of your plants so you can develop your own fertilizing regime.
However, first you should check your water quality and the MCI prerrequisites.

Regards


----------



## Dantra

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Bummer, I'm always curious how people in the same borough dose their tanks. Not so much the size of the tank but what goes in. Yes, I agree Bklyn is big however its interesting that different parts of Bklyn would have very different water.

Thanks anyway and enjoy that great Buenos Aires weather. It's freezing here!

Best regards;
Dan


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Well, the idea is that we are feeding plants instead of fertilizing tanks. The second concepts allow you to standardize fertilizing according to, for example, water quality.

However, If you understand that you are feeding plants, the is not such thing as the "ideal" fertilizing. If you have two tanks at your home, with the same tap water with 3 ppm of Po4, in the first one you have a lot of anubias, microsorums and marsilea crenata. It will be balanced. But if in the second tank you had No3 consumer plants, then you will have issues: GD, Ciano, red algae depending on the combination of imbalances.
Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hey, I've been reading up on your method, it sounds great. Waiting for an electronic scale in the mail now. Then i'll start. I was wondering though, How should i do the Ca: Mg ratio if i only have CSM+B. Plus, it doesn't even have Calcium


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



flashbang009 said:


> Hey, I've been reading up on your method, it sounds great. Waiting for an electronic scale in the mail now. Then i'll start. I was wondering though, How should i do the Ca: Mg ratio if i only have CSM+B. Plus, it doesn't even have Calcium


Simple, Don't do it!

The MCI during years did't have a word about Ca:Mg because it is not so important. From the issues I discover though feedback (Green Dust for example) I decided to write the fertilization chapter and about Ca:Mg.

If you have hard water and no issues, don't touch Ca:Mg.

If your water is soft, then:

You should add Ca only if you have deficiency symptoms or if you already have experience using it. Otherwise, wait.

I think that MG is more important than Ca.

About Mg, you can use the protocol I propose in order to find out the amount you need.

You can add Mg using Magnesium sulfate, your scale and the Fertilator.

Calcium...aragonite is an option as I explained. Calcium nitrate another. Calcium chlorine the easiest to use if you don't have microsorums.

But remember that Mg should be low, use the Fertilator recommendation about the maximum doze.

Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

My water is soft, so i'll take your advice. I think i have the MgSO4, i have to check though.



Christian_rubilar said:


> IF the algae you call BBA is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have an imbalance related to Fe and micros. The solution is the use the generic protocol of Kno3 + Excel. After that, you should add 1/3 of the micros + Fe. This algae is typical when you used CSM+B.
> 
> Regards


I have had this algae FOREVER, and could not figure out what from. I do dose CSM+B, and I'm glad i found this. I'm still confused about how to get rid of it/avoid it however. Would you mind explaining it again? :ear:


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Ok, I made a cntl copy mistake. The translation I posted is a draft.
You should check Co2 and KH. Do the shrimp co2 test.
In future, use no more that 1/3 of the csm+b. In fact, I suggest to use only 0.1 ppm.
Regards


----------



## endgin33

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thank you very much for posting this system here. I have been running E.I. religiously for a while and I still keep running into algae issues. I want to start my no3 generic protocol this week on two oof my three tanks, but they had been recieving standard E.I. dosing up until to three days ago- when I found this thread.

Do you think that the WC into the NO3 protocol will be enough to reduce residual PO4 interference from the EI dosing for the test to be valid? If it will cause interference do you suggest a series of WC's to get to the appropriate level. I tried to find a PO4 test kit today to find what my current levels are right now, but unfortunately my LFS was out of that test kit.

Also in your state in your article that in the case of deep tanks that the system may not work appropriately. One of the tanks to be tested is an 45cm x 45 cm x 55cm deep cube lit by 150watt HQI. I assume that the lighting will be strong enough for the protocol to work appropriately, given that is it lit with HQI and about 5WPG. Do you concurr?

I am currently making sure that my CO2 levels are high enough right at the moment. The shrimp aren't suffering yet, but I am watching carefully for distress.

Thanks again for this fascinating approach to fert/algae management- I hope it works! It seems quite well reasoned out and is definitely worth trying.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

endgin33, the issue about a deep tank is when you don't have HQI. In fact with HQI this is easier. The standard doze for the Kno3 protocol should be higher, about 3/4 times.

The main issue about the EI is that even you can reach a balance, this is very unstable. As soon as you start decreasing nutrients your chemistry may behaves as the ball of a pinball (retro flipper), it means that you may have several different algae is you just do the WC and stop fertilizing at all. So, you should be careful.

First do the Shrimp Co2 test.
Then do the WC and start the Kno3 protocol.
Doesn't matter if you have to wait a couple of week to reach GSA, better to reach it instead of other algae.

Ca, Po4 and high Fe could be an issue too. How high are they?.
Start with only one tank, the one with HQI is the best choice. 
Regards

pd: Nice catch, my father loves to dry fly fishing atlantic salmon at Umba river


----------



## endgin33

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks on the catch comment- the best steelhead of my life. I have a record of Ca and Fe somewhere- but if remember right they weren't high. I may just contact my water department to find the answers instead of using somewhat unreliable aquarium kits. Thank again I look forward to seeing the results from this method.


----------



## endgin33

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

So I just got off of the phone with my local water company for some of my numbers. My PO4 and Fe numbers are nearly undetectable (.01mg/l) but I may have a problem with my mg/ca ratio. Mg is 15mg/l and my Ca is 50mg/l. I may roll with the protocol anyways to see what happens, but this is mildly disappointing. I will reread you sections re Ca issues and try to figure it out from there.


----------



## Bert H

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Due to all the interest and info on this thread, it is now a sticky. Keep discussing!


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

The Ca:Mg ratio isn't a must, only a guideline to use when you have algae.
If you have no issues related to them you shouldn't touch the tap water ratio.
Many issues are produced by improper fertilizing, usually people add too much Ca, Fe and Po4.
Then you may be in troubles.
My advise is that you focus on the Kno3, high Co2 and 0.1 ppm of Fe. If your GH isn't too high you can add Mg too, but don't be too strict about the ratios.
Regards


----------



## plamski

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

The main idea is to not overdose ferts , right? This means that plants will uptake all they need -almost all the amount that we will supply in the tank. Why then we have to do 50% water changes every week?
For now I'm using KH2PO4 and Seachem IRON every day required by PPS-PRO ferts schedule. Are they becoming FePO4 (iron phosphate) too?
I'm infusing 1.7ml/h macro and micro 24/7 .Droplets are located in opposite side of the tank. Tank is 40G long.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

The main idea is to customize the fertilizing according to the needs of your plants combination. All tanks are different. When you "overdoze" you are confessing you have no idea how much you need. Then I look for efficiency in order to avoid imbalances that may produce proper condition por algae.

If you change the water every week it works better, we can speculate about why but this is a fact.
If you have soft water with low KH is a must because you are adding Ca and carbonates with the water change.
If your water is hard, you avoid that the level of sulfur to raise, then you don't need to use so much iron.
However, as I said, we are speculating right now, from my experience, works better is you do the 50% water change. 
Other reason is that Po4 usually raises and then you can have an imbalance. If your tap water is Po4 free, you will decreases Po4 level with the WC. If you have lots of anubias, marsilea or microsorums, then you shouldn't worry about Po4 raise.
However, this is a custom I keep from when I used the EI years ago.
Regards


----------



## endgin33

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I did the WC's today and will keep you posted on my results- my 29g (PC lighting) got .6g kno3 today for the first round, and the cube with 150watt hqi lighting got 2.4g kno3, and no other ferts for either tank. We'll see what happens from here regarding the protocol.


----------



## plamski

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I'm using RO for water changes + Seachem Equilibrium to reach4-5GH and soda bicarbonate to reach 4-6KH.Is it OK or I have to adjust something? In my case I rice KH2PO4 x2 and Fe x 3 PPS-PRO dosage in order to eliminate algae. Problem is that test kits for PO4 show 0.5- 1 ppm and Fe show 0.05-0.1ppm even after increasing dosage. Probably because FePO4 reaction. Tanks is medium planted..


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

You shouldn't mix methods, the medication will be worst than the disease.

If you are following the PPS pro advices about how to deal with algae, I am not the proper person to answer about it.

If you want to try the MCI you should forget the PPS, read several times page 18th of this thread where is the translation of the MCI and come back with any question about this method, I will answer any question you may have after reading the MCI.

There is a chapter where I explain my opinion about adding carbonates, please read it, read the formula of the product you are using and stop using the baking soda.

Please, don't use abbreviations it's difficult to understand for me. What does it means? "I rice KH2PO4 x2 and Fe x 3 "

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



plamski said:


> I'm infusing 1.7ml/h macro and micro 24/7 .Droplets are located in opposite side of the tank. Tank is 40G long.


Sorry, I don't understand, may you translate it to ppms? You can use the fertilator, thanks!
Regards


----------



## plamski

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hello. I add 5ppm PO4 and 0.7ppm Iron daily. I test them with 2 different kits every second day and reading are 0.5-1ppm PO4 , 0.05-0.1 Iron .Nitrite 0,Amonnia 0, Nitrate 10-15ppm.CO2 25-30.
Thanks a lot for you respond. I'm reading now


----------



## endgin33

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Given that this method focuses on the role of NO3 in the system, and uses all of the available PO4 do you find that the "Red" plants suffer color wise in MCI? I have often seen "limit NO3, push PO4 and push FE for red plants"- Rotala Macrandra for instance. I would assume that this would mean a priority uptake of PO4 and Fe? Just curious about your experiences with some of these type of plants. Thanks for your information.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Touche! The situation you mention is an exception, not the rule, but sometimes a custom fertilizing for plants with special needs (I prefer to use the idea about priority consumption) is recommended as a worldwide rule. This is a mistake.

The MCI is a frame from where to start working. There is a lot of checked info, but this is not the bible and I don't intent to be a priest, there are too many in my family already . So you can use any method you feel like but with a critic view, when there is an issue you can probably find the solution at the MCI, or you can simple tune up the way you fertilize using some info I posted (Ca:Mg ratio for example, just using this you can use the EI without GD).

RM is a plant with priority consumption of Ca for sure, I can't say the same about Po4 and Fe. If you use more Fe, this is very well know that it helps to make red plants redder.

But we don't have simple rules as the gravity, apples always fall down.

As the blind man of the analogy, reality is that we know very little about how really interactions work in the aquarium, because one thing is the laboratory or chemistry theory in books, but when you have a "salad" of plants, bacteria, fauna, light, Co2, then...you know, it is not that simple, we know very little, we speculate a lot.

Focusing on your query, I suggest you add Po4 and Fe on alternate days. I think that is better if when you add Fe/Po4 you only add what will be consumed that day. Algae, not me, will tell you if you are doing well or not.

Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

hey christian. So i was really excited, because my scale arrived yesterday! But come to find out... it didn't work properly. So now i have to send it back, and wait another week probably before starting. So... i did a 50% water change about two days ago expecting the scale to arrive and to begin mci, and i haven't fertilized since. Co2 and light is still the same. no algae or deficiencies _yet_. now thats sure to change soon. So until i can get the scale in, would it hurt to do some sort of e.i. dosing? I know you concentrate on mci, but i was wondering if you had any advice for my situation. Plants are mainly ferns (java, bolbitis),and some blyxa and pygmy chain swords.

Thanks!


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



flashbang009 said:


> hey christian. So i was really excited, because my scale arrived yesterday! But come to find out... it didn't work properly. So now i have to send it back, and wait another week probably before starting. So... i did a 50% water change about two days ago expecting the scale to arrive and to begin mci, and i haven't fertilized since. Co2 and light is still the same. no algae or deficiencies _yet_. now thats sure to change soon. So until i can get the scale in, would it hurt to do some sort of e.i. dosing? I know you concentrate on mci, but i was wondering if you had any advice for my situation. Plants are mainly ferns (java, bolbitis),and some blyxa and pygmy chain swords.
> 
> Thanks!


You can use the MCI without the scale, an empty blister of a painkiller like ibuprofen usually is more or less a gram. If you are used to the EI, the tea spoon is a way to doze only Kno3 for now. The scale is a must for SCM+B and Po4. However you can prepare solutions with them in separated bottles even accuracy will be low.
Just add Kno3, do the protocol and see what happens. Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Oh ok, that makes it easier. I checked some blisters we have, and they say something like 30 mg or 40 mg, which is .03 grams right? Am i reading something wrong?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Nop, it's perfect. Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

But if i have to dose 1 gram of No3, then i would do 33 of the blisters??

Sorry for not getting it right away :/


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Flashbang009,
The dose of the pill i.e. 30mg may be the amount of medicine in the pill which could also include fillers.
Just go with teaspoons for now. Do you have the really small set of teaspoons? They go down to 1/64th tsp.


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Alright, that sounds good. Sorry about the questions, just frustrated that the scale didn't work out when i wanted it to. Do you happen to know how much in tsps a gram or something close to it is? If not its fine, just wondering


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

This link should do it:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm


----------



## endgin33

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Touche! The situation you mention is an exception, not the rule, but sometimes a custom fertilizing for plants with special needs (I prefer to use the idea about priority consumption) is recommended as a worldwide rule. This is a mistake.
> 
> The MCI is a frame from where to start working. There is a lot of checked info, but this is not the bible and I don't intent to be a priest, there are too many in my family already . So you can use any method you feel like but with a critic view, when there is an issue you can probably find the solution at the MCI, or you can simple tune up the way you fertilize using some info I posted (Ca:Mg ratio for example, just using this you can use the EI without GD).
> 
> RM is a plant with priority consumption of Ca for sure, I can't say the same about Po4 and Fe. If you use more Fe, this is very well know that it helps to make red plants redder.
> 
> But we don't have simple rules as the gravity, apples always fall down.
> 
> As the blind man of the analogy, reality is that we know very little about how really interactions work in the aquarium, because one thing is the laboratory or chemistry theory in books, but when you have a "salad" of plants, bacteria, fauna, light, Co2, then...you know, it is not that simple, we know very little, we speculate a lot.
> 
> Focusing on your query, I suggest you add Po4 and Fe on alternate days. I think that is better if when you add Fe/Po4 you only add what will be consumed that day. Algae, not me, will tell you if you are doing well or not.
> 
> Regards


I apologize for a somewhat redundant comment re R. macrandra- I was just rereading page 18 again and you specifically reference it. The protocol continues... I will keep you informed...


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

thanks newt, that really helped. You too Christian, this whole thread is great!


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I'm noticing on my blyxa and pygmys that i'm getting new growth that is white/clear. If i remember right this is micro/calcium deficiency. Should i start to dose csm+b (1/3) dose now? or will they be ok if i wait until the NO3 protocol is done?


----------



## plamski

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Flashbang009
Hi. There are small scales available in Wal-Mart and BrandSmart , probably they have some in Bed Bath & Beyond too.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

INTRODUCTION TO FERTILIZING AND ALGAE CONTROL

THE CONTROLLED IMBALANCE METHOD

By Christian Rubilar

There is a very close relationship between fertilizing, uptaking of the fertilizers and algae. The purpose of this work is to explain how these relationships work. This is a complex subject with a lot of new ideas. I will try to be as clear as possible.

The ideas I will explain had been discovered during my work as an aquarium gardener and have been confirmed with positive feedback during the last 5 years at the most important Spanish speaking forum; so this is not speculation. The MCI had over 100,000 reads since it was published and algae is not an issue for us any more. I believe that one of the major issues regarding algae is confusion as to why it occurs or doesn't occur. If we read about algae in books we can find well known authors assert that some of them bloom because of excess of NO3 or PO4. When I read this I understand that these authors have no idea why algae bloom.

The most popular fertilizing methods don't provide enough attention to algae. Some of them focus attention on CO2; others assert that to reach the balance will solve the problem. It just doesn't happen!

On the other hand, the EI method asserts that algae blooms because of lack of CO2, Light or fertilizing. The idea is well oriented, but incomplete. It is empirical evidence. Proper CO2 and light are too basic, so I prefer work with them as prerequisites.

About the lack of nutrients: the EI method asserts that algae blooms because of lack of a nutrient and propose to add this macro/micro to solve the issue. I disagree with this approach. In the following pages I will explain why.

I.	INTRODUCTION
A.	Background

Some years ago I was working with a company developing an aquarium fertilizing. When we had the prototype ready, I prepared five extra high light/CO2 planted tanks just to try different combinations of overdosing of this product. I combined it with PO4, KNO3, Fe, etc looking for algae blooms.

I discovered that there is a relationship between certain imbalances and certain algae. On the other hand, when I tried the solution that the EI and other method propose, they just didn't work.

I also confirmed that when you just add NO3, and let PO4 reach zero then GSA blooms. I discovered that under this water condition, other algae stops blooming or die. I called it the generic KNO3 protocol, which is the main tool we are going to use with the MCI.

B.	What exactly is the MCI?

The MCI was born as an algae control method.
I discovered that when CO2 and Light levels are high enough and you have an issue with algae, this is related to an imbalance between nutrients after uptaking.

There are very close relationships between them and it is easy to solve any algae issue when you understand how they work. I use the concept imbalance because talking about excess or lack of is incorrect. When you use the terms excess or lack, you are talking about a macro/micro nutrient without any relationship with nothing more.

Old school asserts that algae blooms because of excess of nutrients, PO4 mainly. The EI asserts that the lack of nutrients is the cause of algae. None of them is entirely wrong. Sometimes it is a lack of and other times it is an excess; depends.

This is not important; the combination of macros/micros we prepare based on the fertilizer bottle, the real important thing is the plant uptake and what is left in water. The fertilizing approach of the MCI uses algae to find out plant uptakes and propose to develop a custom fertilizing for each aquarium.

It is impossible to standardize a fertilizing regime. Light and CO2 are too overestimated, the main variable are the plant combinations. There are some plants with priority uptake of PO4, NO3, Fe, Ca, etc but most of them have no special needs.

For example, glossostigma elatinoides has a priority NO3 uptake. It means that if you don't add enough KNO3 you will probably have problems with cyano-bacteria. If you have a meadow of marsilea crenata and you don't add enough PO4 you will have issues with GSA. Anubias and microsorums are PO4 priority consumer plants too.

The idea behind the MCI is that if we have enough CO2 and light we can use the plants as the aquarium filter and we can induce chemistry changes that helps us to have an algae free aquarium at the same time we can have a proper high grow rate. In same cases, for example, an aquarium with discus, we can chose PO4 priority consumer plants like marsilea crenata in order to look for a long term balance.

The MCI starts working with KNO3, low Fe (0.1 ppm), no PO4 or potassium sulfate (K) dosing. This is only a start, algae will tell you if you need to add PO4 and how much. I will explain it properly and in more detail later.

If your fertilizing method is PPS or EI, before you start using the MCI, you should decrease the amount of PO4 and Fe in your water, otherwise, the KNO3 generic protocol will take several weeks to produce PO4 zero and the plants will suffer a lot for lack of micros/Fe, etc.

C.	Methodology

The method I propose works only under certain light/water/plants/CO2 conditions. For this reason I will explain it properly and in more detail.

Even when you look for information on algae you can find a lot of possible causes for each of them: excess of water flow, excess of light, etc. I will focus on the key variable: The one that you change so that the problem is solved.

Sometimes the problem is the tap water chemistry. For this reason I will dedicate one chapter to explain the most common issues.

It's very important that you don't mix methods and it would be better if you forget all that you know about other fertilizing methods. I found out that some of the knowledge we have is incomplete, wrong or just an improper interpretation of facts or experiments that have arisen in articles and studies on the subject.

I believe that the misunderstanding about algae is related to the use by analogy of hydroponic and terrestrial plant cultivating knowledge. Algae doesn't exist out of water, so they don't even have to think about them. Plants are quite flexible about uptaking. No matter which fertilizing method you chose, they will be more or less ok. However, algae can show up and bad theory usually is responsible.

For example, everybody read about the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio. This is a ratio from terrestrial studies. Under the water this ratio produces several problems. If you add PO4 too, Green Dust Algae will be an issue.

My basic idea is to discover the underwater rules. Usually they are different, so, all the "scientific knowledge" from above the water became useless or problematic.

II. THE METHOD OF CONTROLLED IMBALANCES

When there is a balance in the aquarium, plants grow properly and you have no algae. You can reach this goal with any fertilizing method.

Unfortunately we deal with a dynamic balance that involves many factors over which we have more uncertainties than certainties. In this sense I think that the best way to understand our situation is with an analogy: a blind man that moves up the sidewalk with his cane. If this is his first time walking down that path there are few things he can say for sure. The blind man knows that the street is on his right and the wall is on his left. But the fact is that he has no idea about how high the buildings are and it makes no sense to even try to find out. For practical purposes, this person can go blind groping the ground with his cane until he finds the wall on his left and from there he can start walking and reach his destination without getting lost because although he lacks the ability to see, he can use the wall as a guide.

In the aquarium we have a whole series of dynamic variables that we don't know but, as the blind man, we can choose between the wall and the street. In my opinion, and this is strictly arbitrary, the wall, the safety, are the GSA.

Thus, our target using the 'Method of Controlled Imbalance' will not be having Green Spot Algae (GSA) but, instead, generate an equilibrium in which we can predict what will be the possible imbalance we may have. The idea is to generate a water chemistry close to GSA because the correction is as simple and safe for the health and aesthetics of our aquarium.

Even this idea can sound a little weird for you, the fact is that all the fertilizing methods had a tendency to a certain water chemistry but they don't realize it. The EI, for example, has a tendency to Green Dust (an imbalance related to an improper Ca:Mg ratio plus too much PO4). However, what happens is any unexpected imbalance occurs and other algae blooms. There are some possible answers. Looking for re-establishing the balance as an immediate goal doesn't work.
Adding more fertilizing doesn't either.

Following the blind man analogy, we should look for the GSA because when we reach it, we know where we are in the same way that finding the wall with the cane. A GSA friendly water chemistry is a desert for other algae and GSA is easy to remove adding small daily amounts of PO4 (PO4 protocol). The advantages of this methodological approach are manifold. First, like the blind groping the wall, the number of variables at play is endless but those on which we work are extremely limited which allows easily interact with them.

III. PRERREQUISITES

The MDC uses the plants as a catalyst for nearly any imbalance that occurs in the aquarium. Because there are so many variables involved, ranging from water quality, the combination of plants, fish, light, among others, I will try to standardize certain requirements without which it becomes difficult to maintain a healthy aquarium.

In this sense, this method assumes a light of at least 4 watts per gallon, CO2 between 25 to 35 ppm, that there are fast-growing plants (with only echinodorus this system does not work).

1. Lighting - Generalities

When I propose to use the gallon/watts rule we are being as inaccurate as we are clear. There are many other ways to calculate lighting, lumens, PAR, etc. I believe that the 'accuracy' about light is just a delusion. There are too many variables in play and the subject becomes too difficult to understand. For this reason I am going to propose the watts/gallon rule with some corrective measures in order to look for more accuracy without losing clarity. Overall, it says that the plants require at least 2 watts/gallon and in fact this should be read as it is the bare minimum to survive and grow for low requirements plants. However, our goal is a bit more ambitious because I want to induce a metabolism working at a 100% rate, which is why we recommend 4 watts/gallon as a minimum. However, the feedback from the last two years has emerged to show that many people have successfully used this system with less illuminated aquariums (as low as 3 watts/gallon). At any rate we recommend to improve the lighting to 4 watts per gallon - this being the minimum I recommend.

As I anticipated, this rule has some simple corrections:
a)	The watts/gallon rule only works in aquariums up to 18 inches high. To set the height of the tank, measure the height of the aquarium glass (raw height) and not the clear height (height of the water column). TLD common tubes (Normal Output linear fluorescent tubes) have little penetration in the water, if we don't use this correction we can make the mistake of believing we have proper light with a deep aquarium. In cases of deep tanks, then we recommend the use of HQI.
b) In the front of the aquarium you should use PLLs (compact fluorescent/power compact) in order to provide proper light to plants on the bottom like glossostigma elatinoides, echinodorus tenellus, etc. The advantage about PLL is that you have twice or three times more light in the same space and better penetration.
c)	The third correction is about light quality. We usually recommend the use of, from the back to the front, GroLux, 842 (80 CRI, 4200K PLL), 954 (90 CRI, 5400K PLL). The meadow plants (glosso, HC, etc.) requires quantity instead of light quality. For this reason you can use 865 (80 CRI, 6500K PLL) instead of 954 or HQI as an option.

2. Water quality

Initially, the MCI didn't have this chapter but from the feedback there came the need to give this subject its own space. I never underestimate its importance but I was aware of the enormous variety of chemical composition that we have throughout the world and I preferred not to generalize. The feedback has allowed me to identify specific problem cases which I will describe briefly in this chapter.

a. One of the most frequent issues is related to overpopulation. Excess of fish, shrimp or melanoides may produce enough ammonia to produce Green Thread Algae. In this case, the tests may have a false negative, they aren't reliable because they read only the ammonia that algae didn't uptake. 
It is essential to reduce the population - less is better. Sometimes, increasing the biological filtration helps in the long term. The use of zeolite is the best option. Usually this is commercialized as an ammonia remover to add to the filter. There are other products that produce the same effect.

b. From the feedback and my own experience when I was in Annapolis, I discovered that usually the ammonia comes with the tap water. To test the tap water before every water change is a good idea when the aquarium is still 'young' and without enough plants.

c. There are some places where the tap water is hard and with a natural imbalance related to Ca carbonate. In this cases we are going to deal with too problems. A high KH interferences with CO2 dissolution. And too much Ca produces a fertile environment for specific red algae (BBA) (see the algae chapter). An obvious solution is to use 50% of RO or distilled water/50% tap water with the water change.

d. Pollution is an issue and it is not going to get better. Many areas of Mexico, Brazil and Buenos Aires state (Argentina) have problems with levels of NO3 over 45 ppm in the tap water. A good quality water shouldn't have more than 10 ppm. If your water has this problem there are some different options. The most obvious is to use R.O. water. A second option is to use rain water and to blend it with the tap water.
A third option, if you have enough space, is to have a water reservoir with emerged Scindapsus aureus (Devil's Ivy, Pothos).

The basis of the MCI is the use of KNO3 Protocol. In those cases above we can't do it. Potassium sulfate is an option. Potassium carbonate or bicarbonate is another. However, we shouldn't forget the usual recommendation about how much to add. If the use of only KNO3 is stable, then we should use this rule. The NPK ratio in the KNO3 is 1/0/0.5. So, if we have 40 ppm of NO3, we should add half of this amount of K, it means 20 ppm.

e. The tap water may also contain an excess of PO4. This happens when the water department filters the water and they add polyphosphates to protect the filters and pipes from corrosion. This is often done when the water is very soft, comes from the sea or it naturally contains some kind of poison, like arsenic, in low levels. This is the case of the tap water in NYC. It contains 3 ppm of PO4. The best route is to use R.O. water in these cases, but even R.O. water is complicated. If you chose plants properly you can easily have a stable aquarium with high PO4 levels. If you have a meadow of marsilea crenata and tap water comes with 3 ppm of PO4, then you probably will have enough PO4 to feed them. If you have some GSA already, then you should add a little bit of extra PO4, I will explain it properly and in more detail in the fertilizing chapter. I had an aquarium with a meadow of marsilea crenata and they uptake 4 to 5 ppm of PO4 weekly. Anubias, microsorums and crypts are a good choice too.

f. Sometimes your water is really complicated. You can have an imbalance related to Ca and PO4 at the same time. GDA will be an issue and the EI theory about it just doesn't work. I will explain in the algae control chapter how to deal with this issue.

3. CO2

There is no need to explain how important CO2 is, so I will deal only with the problematic topic.

There are charts to establish the level of CO2 in water that uses pH and KH. PPS recommends it. It's a mistake. The accuracy is so low that the pH/KH charts are useless, in fact, they are an obstacle. In my personal experience, these charts are useful only to help a beginner to understand that he has no enough CO2 only when the lack is humongous.
In fact, the main problem with these sorts of charts is that you may think that you have enough CO2 when you don't.

The drop checkers have the same problem.
Electronic devices aren't magic; if we calibrate them improperly the CO2 will be low. Devices like the Milwaukee uses pH to stop CO2 injection. The easiest way to calibrate it is using the pH/KH chart but this is a mistake.

I used laboratory quality (not standard aquarium brands) CO2 test and I compare it to the charts and shrimp behavior. According with the charts my aquarium had 90 ppm of CO2 but fish and shrimp were perfect. But CO2 test reads 25 ppm.

I believe that the best option is to use shrimp as a bio-indicator. I propose shrimp because they are more sensitive than fish. At real 40 ppm of CO2 they start behaving weird: they do uncontrollable movements, they try to escape. So, the procedure I propose is to spend one morning watching what is going on with the aquarium and every 30 minutes to increase a little bit the CO2 until the shrimp get upset. Then we turn on the air pump or any devices to oxygenate the water and we calibrate the CO2 with the 30 minutes previous dose. This is the real limit of CO2 your plants can uptake without risking your fish.

If you have an aquarium with shrimp, then I suggest that when you reach the limit, you calibrate the CO2 with the 90 minutes previous dose and you compensate this range with Flourish Excel.

For example, you add 1 bubble per second, after 30 minutes you increase it to 2 bubbles per second and so on. When you add 4 bubbles per second and the shrimp begin to behave weird. Then you oxygenate the water and calibrate the CO2 to 3 bubbles per second.
If you are using a Milwaukee, you calibrate the pH a little bit higher.

However, there is a false positive. If you have discus and the have parasites in their gills they will be breathing at the surface even with low levels of CO2. The damage that the parasites produce in their gills is permanent but you can make sure that the damage get worst by proper CO2 regulation.

Some tips from feedback:
-	The distribution of the CO2 through out the tank is as important as its dissolution in water. 
-	The crystal CO2 diffuser needs of a small power head to distribute the micro bubbles.
-	The CO2 should pass by the prop of the powerhead instead of the venturi.
-	The crystal CO2 diffuser usually works better in small aquariums.
-	If your nano diffuser is too small for the smallest powerhead, you can tune it in order to reduce the water flow like this:










In medium and big tanks we should use a system like this one connected to a strong 500 gallon/h power head:










4. WATER CHANGE

Changing 50% of the water weekly helps a lot to prevent algae.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

IV. Fertilizing approach of the MCI

The MCI is a fertilizing and algae control method. It was developed as an algae control method, so its potential about fertilizing was obvious. Other fertilizing methods just pretend that algae doesn't exist and they don't take any responsibility about them. I believe that algae and fertilizing are two faces of the same coin. Algae gives us feedback about how are we doing with the water management in our aquariums. If there is something wrong they bloom. No matter which fertilizing method you are using, as soon as you have some experience you develop your own method even if you don't realize it. But sometimes there are recurrent issues you can't solve; this is a feedback you should listen to. Sometimes you are the problem; sometimes the problem is that you are using a bad theory. What I mean by bad theory is an idea that doesn't work and because of that it should be abandoned instead of inventing pseudo scientific explanation when this is still not working. GDA is the best example. Even thou there is a very nice explanation about the cycle of living for this algae, the solution proposed (waiting) is&#8230;how to say it&#8230;a confession that the author has no idea about how to deal with it. But this is not the proper chapter to explain this so let's deal with the fertilizing. I don't mean that the complete method should be abandoned; only those ideas that are wrong. You can use any method if you tune it, replacing the bad concepts that ruin it.

1. Generalities

About micros and Fe, if you add 3 times more than what your plants are uptaking you will have issues with red algae (BBA) is we assume that your tank fulfills the prerequisites I described earlier.

About calcium chloride, even small dose may burn microsorum leaves. For this reason I don't recommend to use it.

The base of the MCI is the fertilizing with KNO3, not only KNO3, this is just a beginning. To begin the KNO3 Protocol I recommend for beginners 1 gram every 50 gallons per week. The idea is to look for the real uptake of your tank; we are going to use the generic KNO3 protocol for this. It consists of adding this dose every day until you reach Green Spot Algae (GSA). Then, the total amount of KNO3 you added is the weekly amount of KNO3 you are going to use in the future in order to have a water chemistry close to GSA.

About phosphate, as a beginning, I recommend not to use it right now. However, the dose I will use for the PO4 Protocol is 1 gram every 500 gallons.

About dosing, the electronic scales are so cheap in the States that I don't find any excuse to avoid buying one.

b. Preliminary clarification

When we talk about weekly dose, you should add it every day. If you can't, at least divide it in three and dose 3 times per week. This is OK.

If I don't specify it, I always mean weekly dose.

Use the Fertilator for adding iron and PO4!!!!

If you have HQI, then the KNO3 weekly uptake is 4 times higher. The starting dosing should be 4 gram every 50 gallons if you have enough plants.

2. Advanced fertilizing

a) KNO3 and PO4

The generic protocol of KNO3 will be the main tool for algae control. We are going to use it for finding out the real uptake of NO3 in your aquarium.

The generic KNO3 protocol:

1. First day 50% water change.
2. Stop fertilizing.
3. Add daily 1 gram of KNO3 every 50 gallons until GSA appears.
4. As soon as you reach it or on the seventh day do a 50% water change.
5. If GSA didn't bloom the first week then after the water change, add double the amount (2 grams per 50 gallons) of KNO3 during this week.

In the fertilizing approach, this protocol works like this:
You add KNO3 every day; let's suppose you reach GSA the 3rd day in a 50 gallon tank. Then the weekly dose of KNO3 will be 3 grams divided in seven days.

If your aquarium is really healthy, the remaining amount of KNO3 in the water should be low. If the NO3 raises, this means that you are having problems related to CO2, KH, lack of light, overpopulation, bad tap water quality, lack of plants, etc. In these cases you should check the prerequisites out.

About PO4, you should be asking why I 'restrict' PO4. Well, a healthy aquarium has a normal tendency to lack NO3 and for excess of PO4. For this reason I suggest to listen to your aquarium and to add PO4 only if you need it. Green Spot Algae and pigmy leaf and symptoms of a real lack of PO4. On the other hand, we know that microsorums, anubias and marsilea crenata consumes a lot of PO4; in these cases we know we may need to add it.

I would like to clarify this subject. If we add more PO4 it doesn't mean that plants will uptake more. If we are adding too much we are confessing that we have no idea how much we need. I look for efficiency.

I know you all probably think I am limiting resources but I believe that this concept from Hydroponic cannot be used without any tune up in submersed crops. The reason is simple, we are not only dealing with plant grow rate we have to deal with algae, too. So the idea behind the MCI is not to limit anything, instead I am looking for efficiency, which is the target. I made a living out of cultivating submersed aquarium plants and I had great growth rate with zero algae. Algae for me meant bankruptcy, plain and simple.

In fact, I am limiting some resources but not PO4; I limit potassium (K). I don't want NO3 to reach zero, if we add too much K we can achieve this anti goal. It is better to supply K from the KNO3 and KH2PO4 you add and not from KHSO4.

The main idea is that there are plants with priority consumptions. With this concept I mean that only some plants uptake a lot of a specific macro and these plants will define the fertilizing.

If we need to add PO4 because we have some plants that demand it we have two choices:

1.	There may not be evidence (GSA for example) of a lack of PO4. This happens when we have plants with priority consumption but not enough to significantly alter the water chemistry. In this case we can add a little bit of PO4 over the leaves with a syringe without needle. The dose may be insignificant in ppms but enough if we take care about the uptaking of that plant, then it can be more than enough.
2.	The second scenario is when we actually have GSA after we stop adding KNO3. In that case we should use the PO4 protocol to find out the real uptake rate of this macro. The PO4 protocol (Algae control approach: against GSA) (Fertilizing approach: PO4 consuming finder) is the following:

The Po4 protocol is:

1. First day 50% water change.
2. Stop fertilizing.
3. Clean the glass of GSA daily.
4. Add daily 1 gram of PO4 every 500 gallons until GSA stops appearing/blooming.
5. As soon as you reach this point or on the seventh day do a 50% water change.
6. If GSA didn't stop blooming the first week, after the water change add double the amount of PO4 during the second week and so on.

Once we reach the point where GSA stops blooming, then we use this weekly amount of PO4 as the weekly fertilizing of PO4. If it took three weeks to find out this point, you only use the last week's amount; you don't add the 3 week's amount.

b) Ca and Mg

The 4:1 ratio Ca:Mg cannot be successfully used in the planted aquarium. When there is too much PO4 in the water and you have an imbalance in the Ca:Mg ratio, you will have GDA. In my experience, if you add these macros, the ratio should be the opposite 1:4 Ca:Mg. The immediate consequence of this idea is that you can't add too much Ca because Mg cannot be added in large amounts.
We can find out how much Ca:Mg we need in the same way I propose to do it with NO3 and PO4. However, I suggest you better wait a little more if you are a beginner.

The Mg protocol is:

1. First day 50% water change.
2. Stop fertilizing.
3. Add 0.3 ppm of Ca daily until the algae ".3. RODOPHYTAS SP. 3" blooms.
4. Then use the specific protocol for this alga you will find in the algae control chapter.










With these simple steps you will know how much Mg you need. About Ca, just add 25% of the Mg.

This is not necessary to reach this algae, rotalla wallichi can also be use as a bio-indicator because it melts when there is too much Mg.

Rotala Macranta is a Ca priority consumer plant, so it will alter the Ca consumption of the aquarium. We can assert the same about ammania gracilis, if these plants get blackish that is a symptom of lack of Ca.

The Ca:Mg ratio I suggest is a generalization. Priority consumer plants always alter this kind of rules; but using the steps I mentioned and the algae as bio-indicators, as the blind man with his cane, you can find the balance of your aquarium.

I don't like to use calcium chloride because it can burn microsorum leaves. Usually with water changes you add enough Ca. Another option, if you have soft water with low KH is to use aragonite in your filter. It should be enough for standard requirements plants.

You know when you have an imbalance related to Ca because you will have rodophyta algae sp.2 (look for the picture at the algae control chapter) or, if you also have at the same time an imbalance related to PO4, then you will have an issue with GDA.

c) Potassium

One of the special features of the MCI is that I don't recommend the use of potassium sulfate (KHSO4). There are some reasons. The first one is that if you add this macro, the NO3 will be uptaken and as soon as you reach zero you will have algae issues. The main goal I think is to avoid this situation. The idea behind the MCI is to have a stable water chemistry where we know we are always close to GSA. If we add K this stability disappears.

On the other hand, it is better to do not add sulfur when we can avoid it. Bacteria oxidation may produce sulfuric acid. Of course, if you add a lot of Fe you alter the redox ratio and this problem is neutralized but it is simpler just to limit the addition of sulfur.

If you have hard water, you probably already have more that enough sulfur and adding more with the fertilizing may produce Grey Hair Algae (See algae control chapter).

K is needed, no doubt, but in my experience, with the low K we add with KNO3 is more that enough. If my assumption is wrong, then microsrums pteropus should became black.

Hygrophila polisperma is a plant that consumes priority K. I have read that it is propose to be use as a bio-indicator of the lack of K. This is a mistake; the uptaking of K with this plant in your aquarium becomes bulky. You can put this plant just with water and potassium sulfate and it will grow well.

d) Ca, K and Sodium carbonates

There is a difficult solution issue about adding carbonate to the water of a planted aquarium. It is almost an intuitive assumption to add potassium or calcium carbonate or bicarbonate. However, we should take attention to the total amount of K we are adding to the water. If we add potassium phosphate, potassium nitrate and carbonate or bicarbonate, we can easily be adding like 50 ppm of K. If we also add potassium sulfate, then the amount of K is too high. K by itself is not an issue like iron that can become poisonous in high doses but it can result in the NO3 reaching zero and that would be a problem.

If we don't want to add so much potassium sulfate, then the solution is to combine Calcium, sodium and potassium carbonates/bicarbonates in order to keep all of them in acceptable rates.

As I already explain in the Ca/Mg chapter, we should be careful with the amount of Ca we add if we don't want to have issues with red algae or GDA. On the other hand, Discus an Apistos are sensitive to Ca.

The reason for adding carbonates to the water is related to avoid a breakdown of the buffer that allows the pH to fall to low.
I was born in Buenos Aires City, in Argentina. We live in just besides the De La Plata River which begins in the Mato Groso swamps in Brazil. The tap water has a 1.5 KH and barely any Ca. I never had problems with this myth about the breakdown of the buffer. Even the pH can fall; this is not a never ending fall. Only fish from hard water and high pH have serious problems. Botia macracanta is one of them.

I am not suggesting to have a 5.5 pH with our fish; I am just trying to explain that this is not such a big deal.

We have this very soft water and hobbyists have successfully been using aragonite for decades to avoid this buffer breakdown. Aragonite, coral sand, is thicker than the standard calcium carbonate we can buy. The advantage of this is that the water won't become white and as soon as its low water dissolving properties, the Co2, will dissolve it slowly when this is needed and no more. We only need a small amount of aragonite in our filter.

e) Fe

The MCI works with only 0.1 ppm of Fe per week.

The PPS and the EI uses higher levels of Fe. Fe reduces the redox potential and it could be useful if you have too much sulfur in your water or it is polluted. On the other hand, if you have both, Po4 and Fe high, they will become iron phosphate.

There is a lot of debate about if plants can uptake it or not. It doesn't make any difference. You can know how much Fe your plants uptake if you are adding like 0.025ppm a day until you get algae. I believe that this is not necessary, but you can do it if you feel like. The algae that will bloom for Iron can be stopped with the KNO3 generic protocol but you will need glutaraldehyde (Flourish Excel) to eliminate them.

Excess of Fe:









Ca + Fe:









However, I believe that the best approach is to add PO4 and Fe on alternating days. In my experience, 0.1 ppm of Fe is enough. Anyway, your plants will tell you if you really need more.

I know that it is a fact that you can have higher levels of Fe in your tanks with no algae, but I also know that this is less stable and there is no need for that. Plants will not start starving if you add Fe in a more efficient, conservative way.

It is all about focus, don't mix method. You can add less Fe only if you add less PO4. As I explained before, it is all about imbalances instead of lack or excess.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

VI. ALGAE CONTROL APPROACH THE CONTROLLED IMBALANCES

In this chapter I will describe the protocols (steps) I have successfully used to imbalance the aquarium looking for GSA as a first step, and looking for a final balance later with no algae at all.

A. Green algae

A.1. Green Water










It is not very clear why this algae blooms. In my personal experience, it always blooms when the KNO3 and PO4 levels where to high together. However, it seems that this is not the only situation where it can bloom. GWA also is common in new aquariums, we can speculate that nitrite may also be a nutrient that this algae uses. Water changes don't solve anything, usually it is worse. To avoid GW it is best to start a new aquarium with a lot of fast growing plants, not necessarily the definitive you want to have.

You can solve it using for time the dose of Tetra Baktozym. 
An UV filter is the best option. Make a 50% water change before you start using it and on the 7th day. Stop fertilizing.

A.2. Green Algae (CHLOROPHITAS)

Green Thread Algae

This alga is related to ammonia. Please read about it at the water quality chapter in order to identify why you have ammonia in your aquarium.

PROTOCOL 1
1. First day, 50% water change. Check that the water you are adding is ammonia free.
2. Don't decrease the light.
3. Check the Co2 level, don't assume it is ok. 
4. Apply just over the algae with syringe without needle 10 ml/25 gallon of hydrogen peroxide or glutaraldehyde /Flourish Excel is a good option. However, this product only solves the symptom.
5. Stop fertilizing. 
6. 50% water change at the 7th day.
If you have enough shrimp they can easily clean this algae but they don't solve the imbalance that caused it. 4 shrimp per gallon can clean a tank in two days. This is an easy solution if you already have them or if they are cheap. Where I live a bag with 200 of them cost like 2 dollars, they are used as live food.

A.3. Sp. Short Green Algae










I had this algae between having sold my old canister and receiving the new one. The aquarium has a lot of echinodorus and just a few fast growing plants. As soon as the new filter had been working for a week and I add more plants, this algae disappeared.

A.4. Green Spot Algae (GSA)










GSA is related to an imbalance between PO4 and NO3. Essentially there is no PO4.

PROTOCOL: 
1. First day 50% water change.
2. Keep adding KNO3.
3. Clean the glass of GSA daily.
4. Add daily 1 gram of PO4 every 500 gallons until GSA stops appears.
5. As soon as you reach this point or on the seventh day do a 50% water change.
6. If GSA didn't stop blooming/appearing the first week, after the water change add double the amount of KNO3 during the second week and so on.

A.5. CLADOPHORA










This algae is related to an imbalance between light and CO2.
You should check that the CO2 is enough. Read the CO2 chapter to find out how to reach the maximum you can add without risking your fauna. If there is no way to add more CO2, then you should decrease the light. This is unusual and only happens when you use natural light in summer time.

You can use Flourish Excel to kill this algae, 4 times the recommended dose.
If you have a shrimp tank and you don't want to risk them by adding more CO2, you should compensate it by using Flourish Excel nd CO2.
Riccia, egeria densa and hemianthus micrantemoides suffer a lot with an Excel overdose.

PROTOCOL:
1. Check CO2 level.
2. Use the KNO3 generic protocol
3. Add 4 times the recommended dose of Flourish Excel

B. BLUE GREEN ALGAE (BGA): CYANOBACTERIA (OSCILLIOTA SPLENDENS)










Cyanobacteria (BGA) is related to an imbalance between NO3 and PO4. Always means that there is too much PO4, it can also happen because there isn't enough NO3.

If you have discus the issue probably is too much PO4.
If the aquarium has a meadow or glossostigma elatinoides then the problem probably is the lack of NO3.

Cyanobacteria can be eradicated in the same way as bacteria. You can add just over the algae with a syringe without needle 10 ml/25 gallon of hydrogen peroxide once a day. Erythromycin can be use only when you have too much cyanobacteria. Be careful with BGA as it is a hepato-toxin (liver) and can make you ill.

PROTOCOL 1:
Small amounts of cyanobacteria are probably caused because of a lack of NO3. This usually happens when you have glossostigma elatinoides or a lot of fast growing plants.
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol.
2. Vacuum up the cyanobacteria or use the hydrogen peroxide.

PROTOCOL 2:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol but adding double the amount of Kno3.
2. Black out the tank for 3 days.
3. After the 3 days, start again with the KNO3 generic protocol using the standard amount of KNO3 until you reach GSA.

PROTOCOL 3:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol but adding double the amount of KNO3.
2. Black out the tank for 3 days.
3. Add 500 mg of erythromycin every 25 gallons once a day. 
4. After the 3 days, start again with the KNO3 generic protocol using the standard amount of KNO3 until you reach GSA.

C. GREEN DUST ALGAE (GDA)










There is a lot of confusion about this algae. The EI method suggests that you should wait out the lifecycle of this algae until it dies (about 3 weeks).
However, a friend of mine waited for 6 months, the picture is from his tank.
I tested the water and I discovered a complex imbalance related to (1) Ca: Mg, too much Ca and (2) NO3O4, too much PO4. Three days later after we worked out and corrected these imbalances the problem was solved.

PROTOCOL: 
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol plus: 
2. Clean the glasses every day until GDA doesn't appears anymore.
3. In future, you should use a Ca:Mg ratio of 1:4.
4. If you add PO4, read the fertilizing chapter about PO4.
5. Read the water quality chapter about excess of PO4 and Ca in tap water.

D.1. RODOPHYTA SP.1










This algae is related to an excess of Fe.
PROTOCOL:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol plus: 
2. Add just over the algae with syringe without needle 10 ml/25 gallon of hydrogen peroxide once a day. Excel can be used too, 4 times the recommended dose.
3. In future, you should add 1/3 of the Fe you were using.

D.2. RODOPHYTA SP. 2










This algae is related to a complex imbalance where there is too much Ca in relation to Mg and there is an excess of Fe too.

PROTOCOL:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol plus: 
2. add just over the algae with syringe without needle 10 ml/25 gallon of hydrogen peroxide once a day. Excel can be used too, 4 times the recommended dose.
3. In future, you should add 1/3 of the Fe you were using.
4. In future, change the Ca:Mg ratio. Please read the fertilizing chapter about Ca:Mg.

D.3. RODOPHYTAS SP. 3










This algae is related to an imbalance between Ca: Mg where there is too much Mg. If you have marble in you tank, you should remove it

PROTOCOL:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol plus: 
2. In future, reduce the amount of Mg you are adding.

D.4. RODOPHYTA SP. 4










I don't know exactly why this algae blooms. I had it when I cut too many plants or when I put too much aragonite in the filter.

- The Kno3 generic protocol stops the bloom.
- WC helps a lot.
- This is H3O proof algae.
- Shrimp are useful only if you have too many of them.
- You need Excell to eliminate it.

D.5. RODOPHYTA SP. 5










This algae is related to an imbalance between NO3O4 where there is an excess of PO4 and lack of CO2.

PROTOCOL:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol plus: 
2. Check KH, eventually, reduce KH using RO water.
3. Check CO2. Read the chapter about CO2.
4. Stop adding PO4; read about PO4 at the fertilizing chapter.

D.6. RODOPHYTA LEMANEA (BBA):










An imbalance related to Ca and lack of Co2 is related to this algae.

PROTOCOL:
1. Use the Kno3 generic protocol plus: 
2. Reduce Fe in future, 1/3 of what was being used should be enough. I suggest 0.1 ppm.
3. Use Flourish Excel to kill this algae by spot treating affected areas.
4. Check Co2, uso the shrimp protocol.
5. Check Ca:Mg ratio
6. Check Kh, it may interference the Co2 dissolution

E. DIATOMS aka Brown Algae
1. Increase your light!!!!!! Don't waste you time about silicates.
2. Otocinculus will take care of this quickly
This algae will sometimes show in newly setup aquariums.

F. BROWN HAIR ALGAE










This algae is related to an excess of sulfur. It usually happens when your tap water already contains too much sulfur and you use potassium or magnesium sulfate.

PROTOCOL:
1. Use the KNO3 generic protocol plus: 
2. Try to get a water analysis from the Water company.
3. Reduce or eliminate the use of sulfates (potassium, Mg, etc)

G. Different algae at the same time

You should chose the worst and start working about it. Cyanobacteria (BGA) are the worst always because it kills plants. If you reach GSA this water chemistry will help you to start finding a long term balance.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this work can be useful for you. I have been in this hobby for 28 years. When I start using the most popular fertilizing methods and there were issues without a clear solution, I start looking for a way to enjoy of my aquarium without algae. This work is my feedback and the feedback of hundred of people who teach me a lot with his/her experiences during the last 5 year at www.drpez.net.
Thanks


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I still have the question i asked above about the white leaves, but also, how do we know when "GSA appears"? Are we talking all over the glass, or the first spots, or what? In other words, how much GSA constitutes its appearance/total amount of KNO3.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Don't worry about this white leaves, as soon as you finish the Kno3 protocol you can start using the other macros/micros.

Just a little bit of GSA is enough.

Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Alright, sounds good, thanks for the help


----------



## kastanje

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Dear Mr. Christian Rubilar,

By means of this post I'd like to ask your permission to translate your essay on MCI into dutch and publish it on the "Dutch Aquaforum". I prefer to use the pics as well.

I've read this thread and your essay and I find it most interesting. I think it can be an aid to lots of people here in the Netherlands.

It's not my intention to translate all of it since some parts are considered to be well known amoung dutch aquarists.
So my idea is to make a summary of some parts and translate other parts as a whole.
With regard, Hans Koek


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Well i believe i am close to finishing the No3 protocol. I have GSA appearing in remote places, but not consistently all over. Also, i still have GDA in the areas that don't have GSA. Does this mean i need to continue the protocol until i have no more GDA?

Also, in your article, for the PO4 protocol you say to stop fertilizing. However, in your method for eliminating GSA you mention that you should keep fertilizing No3. So i don't know which to do when trying to find PO4 uptake.

And with the white leaves on my blyxa and pygmy's, will it be solved by CSM+B, or do i need to get some ferts with Ca?

EDIT: after reading up on deficiencies, i think the white may be due to iron, not calcium. I have not found any source citing completely white as a deficiency, only yellow.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



kastanje said:


> Dear Mr. Christian Rubilar,
> 
> By means of this post I'd like to ask your permission to translate your essay on MCI into dutch and publish it on the "Dutch Aquaforum". I prefer to use the pics as well.
> 
> I've read this thread and your essay and I find it most interesting. I think it can be an aid to lots of people here in the Netherlands.
> 
> It's not my intention to translate all of it since some parts are considered to be well known amoung dutch aquarists.
> So my idea is to make a summary of some parts and translate other parts as a whole.
> With regard, Hans Koek


Be my guest. Let's continue by PM.

I would prefer if you translate the complete article because 1) It's an excellent way to start for beginners, algae is the main reason for abandoning this hobby 2) Advanced are beginners in this approach 3) This is an algae control method mainly 4) with a fertilizing approach suggestion and 5) the translation you read is already a summary.

I know it works but only if you respect the pre requisites and you open your mind.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



flashbang009 said:


> Well i believe i am close to finishing the No3 protocol. I have GSA appearing in remote places, but not consistently all over. Also, i still have GDA in the areas that don't have GSA. Does this mean i need to continue the protocol until i have no more GDA?


Well, it means that perhaps you should have to improve the water circulation. Are you cleaning daily the GDA?



flashbang009 said:


> Also, in your article, for the PO4 protocol you say to stop fertilizing. However, in your method for eliminating GSA you mention that you should keep fertilizing No3. So i don't know which to do when trying to find PO4 uptake.


Keep adding Kno3.



flashbang009 said:


> And with the white leaves on my blyxa and pygmy's, will it be solved by CSM+B, or do i need to get some ferts with Ca?


I have soft water with barely no Ca and I have no issues with the efficiency you mentioned. I don;t add CSM+B right know but I use laterite soil (not the mineral you can buy in the States). So, I suppose that with adding CSM+B your issue should be solved. Use no more that 0.1 ppm as a start.



flashbang009 said:


> EDIT: after reading up on deficiencies, i think the white may be due to iron, not calcium. I have not found any source citing completely white as a deficiency, only yellow.


I agree! Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks for the response. Ok, so i won't worry about the leaves until i resume regular fertilizing.

"Green Spot Algae and pigmy leaf and symptoms of a real lack of PO4." (I haven't figured out how to quote well yet with this site). You mentioned Pygmy leaves, what deficiency or issue are you addressing here? Could my pygmy issue be due to a lack of PO4?

Also in the PO4 protocol, you say to add 1 gram per 500 gallons. If i were to dose that amount in a 75 gallon, it would be .15 grams per day for the whole tank. The problem is the scale i bought (and most i saw), only measure to .1 not .15. Anyone have a solution?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

You can use the Fertilator, you will love it.
Regards


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thats what i ended up doing


----------



## plantkeeper

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

This is some thread. I just read the entire thing and I must say, its a breath of fresh air to see a new approach.

This is exactly what I have been looking for, connection between dosing and algae.

Finally! Looking forward to giving this a try.


----------



## Turbosaurus

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

This is awesome. Thank you so much for the translation. I can't wait to try it.

I have questions though, regarding the translation and what I think may be either contradictions or mistakes in the translation, or my understanding. I have spent hours reading through this, but I can't seem to be able to comprehend these contradictions:

In regard to the "PO4 protocol" and "GSA protocol" 
In post #215 under PO4 protocol (which should be done after the NO3 protocol- which is complete when GSA appears) It states we should do a 50% W/C and *stop fertilizing,* then begin adding PO4. 
Later, in post #216 under GSA protocol, it says we should do a 50% W/C and *CONTINUE adding NO3 *while we begin adding PO4. These seem to conflict. 
Later is post #216 under GSA protocol, step #6, after one week, if we do not see a reduction in GSA we should do a 50% water change, then add "double the NO3"- should that read double the PO4? since in the PO4 protocol, we are supposed to double PO4 if it doesn't go away? I find this very confusing.

Also, in post #215, under mg protocol, in step #3 it states we should add 0.3PPM Ca until we see staghorn algae, however, later in that line you state this will give us required Mg, then calculate CA from that at 25%. I think that step three should read add Mg, not Ca, or am I not understanding?


----------



## boink

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

So for spirogyra algae, you suggest upping KNO3 till i get GSA and then using 1/3 that dose for KH2PO4?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Turbosaurus said:


> In regard to the "PO4 protocol" and "GSA protocol"
> In post #215 under PO4 protocol (which should be done after the NO3 protocol- which is complete when GSA appears) It states we should do a 50% W/C and *stop fertilizing,* then begin adding PO4.
> Later, in post #216 under GSA protocol, it says we should do a 50% W/C and *CONTINUE adding NO3 *while we begin adding PO4. These seem to conflict.


Yeah, translating in working hours, very accurate info and too many cntl copy together aren´t a good combination.

You should add Kno3 in both protocols. If the GSA bloom is "heavy", then you should add only Po4.



Turbosaurus said:


> Later is post #216 under GSA protocol, step #6, after one week, if we do not see a reduction in GSA we should do a 50% water change, then add "double the NO3"- should that read double the PO4? since in the PO4 protocol, we are supposed to double PO4 if it doesn't go away? I find this very confusing.


This is a typo mistake, it´s Po4 instead of Kno3.



Turbosaurus said:


> Also, in post #215, under mg protocol, in step #3 it states we should add 0.3PPM Ca until we see staghorn algae, however, later in that line you state this will give us required Mg, then calculate CA from that at 25%. I think that step three should read add Mg, not Ca, or am I not understanding?


No,no,no,no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a huge typo mistake, it is MG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry about that!!!!!

I will mail the moderator in order to fix this mistakes. Thank you so much for your corrections, I really appreciate it.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



boink said:


> So for spirogyra algae, you suggest upping KNO3 till i get GSA and then using 1/3 that dose for KH2PO4?


No. I propose a specific way to find out the amount of Po4 you need. The only phrase I mention you should add no more than 1/3 of the amount you were using is about Fe. But it is just a secondary comment because I recommend 0.1 ppm.

About spirogyra, which name I use for this algae?

Regards


----------



## plantkeeper

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Man, I am going to get killed on this I am sure, but just clarify this one more time for me.

Do the KNO3 protocol first. (adding no other ferts)
Then once dialed in, if needed, do the PO4 protocol.
As part of the PO4 protocol, the KNO3 dosing should continue as precribed by the KNO3 protocol?

If this is true... how do we know that the lack of PO4 is not affecting growth conditions during the KNO3 protocol? Especially for some of the PO4 hungry plants, which obviously could be deprived during the KNO3 protocol if PO4 is halted. )what if it takes three weeks?? That quite sometime for PO4 to be lacking. No?

Plants use all three macros, some more than others, but they still require the nutrient. It seems that we are starving out the plants to drive the algae condition, but this seems counterintuitive since we are not giving the plants optimal growing conditions during the protocols to draw a conclusion.

Or... am I just over thinking this and the short timing of the protocols is not enough to be a factor for true deficiency to be a factor?


----------



## Turbosaurus

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

I think you got it perfectly Glenn. We are driving the algae- forcing it to appear by creating a deliberate "controlled imbalance" 
The lack of other nutrients WILL effect plant growth - I think that is part of the process of driving the biological indicators (algae). This is not so far off from other fert methods in that- everyone is always talking about balance- EI, PPS pro, and every thread we've ever read says you have to find the balance right for your tank. This is a way to force the issue-create a specific identifiable imbalance- one nutrient at a time to find the tipping point if you will. Limiting the other ferts will speed the process of finding that tipping point by deliberately and quickly causing the specific identifiable imbalance- instead of dosing everything then scratching our heads trying to figure out which might be outta whack when something goes wrong.

That being said- I also wonder- the KNO3 protocol for example- Is that a true measure of how much nitrogen our plants need per week? or is it just the amount of nitrogen necessary to create a PO4 deficency based on how much PO4 is already present and not based on Nitrate uptake? Ie- aren't we simply figuring how much PO4 is currently in the water when the protocol starts, instead of figuring how much nitrate we need? IDK.


----------



## tazcrash69

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

If I can ask you for additional clarifications: in the: 
b. Preliminary clarification


Christian_rubilar said:


> When we talk about weekly dose, you should add it every day. If you can't, at least divide it in three and dose 3 times per week. This is OK.


Sorry, but when I read the above line it doesn't quite make mathematical sense to me: 
If the weekly dose is 9 grams, then you add 9 grams a day? 
If you can't dose daily, then add 3 grams 3 times per week.

Also I have two questions about this section under: III. PRERREQUISITES


> In this sense, this method assumes a light of at least 4 watts per gallon, CO2 between 25 to 35 ppm, that there are fast-growing plants (with only echinodorus this system does not work).


1) do you take tank size into consideration with your WPG prerequisite? 
2) when you say: (with only echinodorus this system does not work), is it something about the uptake to this genus? or is it because they generally slower growing (and then in this case would you include other rosette plants like Cryptocoryne?).

Thanks for the new things to think about.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



gmccreedy said:


> Man, I am going to get killed on this I am sure, but just clarify this one more time for me.


No at all, you have very good questions.



gmccreedy said:


> Do the KNO3 protocol first. (adding no other ferts)
> Then once dialed in, if needed, do the PO4 protocol.
> As part of the PO4 protocol, the KNO3 dosing should continue as precribed by the KNO3 protocol?


No. 1) You do the Kno3 protocol. 2) You reach GSA 3) Since then you use this amount as the weekly doze of Kno3. 4) Then you do the Po4 protocol adding the amount you discovered with the Kno3 protocol. 5) You use the amount of Po4 you needed to stop the GSA bloom as the weekly doze.

Example

Kno3 protocol: 1 gram every day every 50 gallon. 
GSA blooms after 3 days
The weekly doze of Kno3 is 3 grams.
You start doing the Po4 protocol adding 3 gram of Kno3 divided in 7 days
GSA stops blooms in 3 days, then this is the amount of Po4 you will doze per week.



gmccreedy said:


> If this is true... how do we know that the lack of PO4 is not affecting growth conditions during the KNO3 protocol? Especially for some of the PO4 hungry plants, which obviously could be deprived during the KNO3 protocol if PO4 is halted. )what if it takes three weeks?? That quite sometime for PO4 to be lacking. No?


You do the Kno3 protocol once, it is not big deal, you should´t freak out about that. If you are using PPS or EI probably you are adding too much Po4. If you have plants with Po4 priority consumption (Po4 hungry plants), then the Kno3 protocol will never take 3 weeks, you will have GSA in probably 3 days. If GSA takes 3 weeks to bloom, it means that you were adding Po4 for a whole army.



gmccreedy said:


> Plants use all three macros, some more than others, but they still require the nutrient. It seems that we are starving out the plants to drive the algae condition, but this seems counterintuitive since we are not giving the plants optimal growing conditions during the protocols to draw a conclusion.


The fact is that we don´t know the NPK uptake and this is different in every tank because this is related to the plant combination you have.

Don´t worry about plants starvation or "optimal growing rate", I used to cultivate plants using this method and there were no issues.



gmccreedy said:


> Or... am I just over thinking this and the short timing of the protocols is not enough to be a factor for true deficiency to be a factor?


Right!

Regards


----------



## plantkeeper

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thanks for getting back to me!

One more...



> No. 1) You do the Kno3 protocol. 2) You reach GSA 3) Since then you use this amount as the weekly doze of Kno3. 4) Then you do the Po4 protocol adding the amount you discovered with the Kno3 protocol. 5) You use the amount of Po4 you needed to stop the GSA bloom as the weekly doze.


If you are dosing KNO3 to find the balance of the GSA, how can GSA bloom for the PO4 protocol if you have already set KNO3 to not induce GSA?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



tazcrash69 said:


> If I can ask you for additional clarifications: in the:
> b. Preliminary clarification
> 
> Sorry, but when I read the above line it doesn't quite make mathematical sense to me:
> If the weekly dose is 9 grams, then you add 9 grams a day?
> If you can't dose daily, then add 3 grams 3 times per week.


If the weekly amount you should add is 7 grams, you add a gram per day.



tazcrash69 said:


> Also I have two questions about this section under: III. PRERREQUISITES
> 1) do you take tank size into consideration with your WPG prerequisite?


Yes, lenght x wide x high.



tazcrash69 said:


> 2) when you say: (with only echinodorus this system does not work), is it something about the uptake to this genus? or is it because they generally slower growing (and then in this case would you include other rosette plants like Cryptocoryne?).


It´s a fact. I never stopped thinking about the cause, I just added other plants and problem solved. 
There were no issues with cryptos, they just consumes more Po4 than No3.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



gmccreedy said:


> Thanks for getting back to me!
> 
> One more...
> 
> If you are dosing KNO3 to find the balance of the GSA, how can GSA bloom for the PO4 protocol if you have already set KNO3 to not induce GSA?


With the Kno3 protocol you reach a lack of Po4, you have zero Po4 and GSA blooms (you reach the imbalance). Then you do the Po4 protocol to stop the GSA bloom (you reach the balance). That´s the reason the method is called controlled imbalances.

Reaching the balance is the goal always with any method you use. Usually other method starts with a formula and from there you start looking for the balance. The main issue is that you are dealing with too many factors at the same time and there are not simple steps to reach it. The idea of using a standard formula that you tune up, is a mistake. The main difference with the MCI is that there is no formula. When you do the Kno3 protocol you look for the uptake. And the same is with all the other protocols.

Read Turbosaurus reply, it´s quite clear.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Turbosaurus said:


> That being said- I also wonder- the KNO3 protocol for example- Is that a true measure of how much nitrogen our plants need per week? or is it just the amount of nitrogen necessary to create a PO4 deficency based on how much PO4 is already present and not based on Nitrate uptake? Ie- aren't we simply figuring how much PO4 is currently in the water when the protocol starts, instead of figuring how much nitrate we need? IDK.


Good point.

If you are using EI or PPS, first you need to decrease the amount of Po4 in water with water changes, otherwise you are absolutely right.

Once you have a reasonable amount of Po4 in water you play using Kno3 and Po4 protocol until you reach the balance. The point is that EI is right when freaks out about lack of nutrients because if you don´t have control of the water chemistry you never know which is the next algae bloom: BBA, GSA, GDA, etc. 
With the MCI there is no fear about imbalanceS because we know that the worst we can do is the simple GSA.

And there is a fact that all method assert, if there are healthy plants there is no algae. I agree, I only propose a different approach to reach this goal.

Regards


----------



## plantkeeper

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Thank you Christian. I think I got it. I will actually see Turbosaurus in a few weeks, we will certainly talk about this then!


----------



## MrBlackThumb

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Sorry to hijack the thread, but is there a list of the priority consumption plants. I mean what plants prefer what fertilizer and such. I can only list glosso like nitrate, java fern, marsilea, anubias, and now crypt prefer PO4. Right now I'm following PPS pro but still have problem with GSA, I'm already adding extra PO4 (1.5 times) and it seems to be OK (no GSA on new anubias leaves and such). If I were to follow MCI, what do I do to "reset" the tank to start the KNO3 then the PO4 protocols? Thank you.


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

a 50% water change or slightly larger should reset the tank.


----------



## flashbang009

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hey Christian. So i got the scale, and started the protocol. I think the flow in my tank is messed up, and that will be fixed soon. However, I started dosing in a 75 gallon 1 tsp=1.5 grams of KNO3. Did this for 2 weeks (i.e. tried it twice just to make sure my result was right, plus i didn't have a scale for the first week). The result: sporadic GSA growth (minimal), and widespread GDA. I am increasing to a heaping tsp this week, maybe 2 which is equal to 3 grams. I hope it works.

Is it ok to add csm+b while doing this protocol? My plants suffered TREMENDOUSLY when i stopped dosing csm+b. All fast growers were completely white. I mean just like a bedsheet. I hate to see my money...er.. i mean my plants 8-[ suffer like that.


----------



## kastanje

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

In some posts, some are worrying about getting a deficit of PO4 when starting with the KNO3 protocol to begin with.
There is really no reason for this. All minerals (salts) containing Phosfate are very bad solvable in water except for those containing Potassium or Sodium.
Thus, the soil contains a significant amount of other PO4 minerals. (Fe, Ca, Mg, Mn etc.)
The roots of plants are very capable of taking in PO4 from the soil so a deficit will not easily occur, even when one doesn't measure any Phosfate at all with a test kit.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



MrBlackThumb said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread, but is there a list of the priority consumption plants. I mean what plants prefer what fertilizer and such. I can only list glosso like nitrate, java fern, marsilea, anubias, and now crypt prefer PO4. Right now I'm following PPS pro but still have problem with GSA, I'm already adding extra PO4 (1.5 times) and it seems to be OK (no GSA on new anubias leaves and such). If I were to follow MCI, what do I do to "reset" the tank to start the KNO3 then the PO4 protocols? Thank you.


Well, you already know you need extra Po4, the Kno3 protocol will reach GSA fast. If you have more or less an idea of how much Po4 you need you can modify the Po4 protocol. For example, if you are adding 1 ppm of Po4 right now and you are close to GSA, the you can add 0.15 ppm daily as a shortcut.

Those are all the plants I found out.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



flashbang009 said:


> Hey Christian. So i got the scale, and started the protocol. I think the flow in my tank is messed up, and that will be fixed soon. However, I started dosing in a 75 gallon 1 tsp=1.5 grams of KNO3. Did this for 2 weeks (i.e. tried it twice just to make sure my result was right, plus i didn't have a scale for the first week). The result: sporadic GSA growth (minimal), and widespread GDA. I am increasing to a heaping tsp this week, maybe 2 which is equal to 3 grams. I hope it works.
> 
> Is it ok to add csm+b while doing this protocol? My plants suffered TREMENDOUSLY when i stopped dosing csm+b. All fast growers were completely white. I mean just like a bedsheet. I hate to see my money...er.. i mean my plants 8-[ suffer like that.


If you can test Po4, it will help you.
If you need to add CSM+B, just do it. I recommend to add only Kno3 in order to touch one thing at the time, then you know exactly what you are doing.
You probably need more Kno3. The idea is to add double the amount every week until you reach GSA. 
You aren´t adding a lot of Kno3 right now.
Regards


----------



## bigstick120

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

WOW, OK I sat here with google translator for about an hour, only to relaize that you translated it for us on page 9! Doh! Im going to remove that section and stickie it and add a link to this thread for discussion. Hopefully I can save someone some time!


----------



## Newt

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



bigstick120 said:


> WOW, OK I sat here with google translator for about an hour, only to relaize that you translated it for us on page 9! Doh! Im going to remove that section and stickie it and add a link to this thread for discussion. Hopefully I can save someone some time!


Actually, Post #210 (page 21) starts the newest translation.


----------



## bigstick120

I guess that depends on your forum settings, this thread only goes to page 13 for me. I think I have it set to read 20 post per page.


----------



## flashbang009

So i've bumped up to 3.5 grams of KNO3 per day. I hope this gets the GDA to go away. I am amazed by how fast the GDA can grow. I scraped and did a 60% water change yesterday, and by the end of today it's already back about half of how bad it was. If only my plants could grow that fast....


----------



## Newt

bigstick120 said:


> I guess that depends on your forum settings, this thread only goes to page 13 for me. I think I have it set to read 20 post per page.


Sorry. Didnt know you could do that.


----------



## boink

I was looking through the algae part and it says for BGA, there is too much PO4, and for GSA, not enough PO4. I've got both, sooo whats up?

My nitrates are about 15 ppm at the end of the day, before autodosing kicks in.


----------



## flashbang009

Most likely poor circulation. BGA tends to be from too much PO4 plus dead spots in the tank. Treat the BGA with h2o2


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## Christian_rubilar

Christian_rubilar said:


> *Edit note:* For full English translation, please refer to here, starting on post number 214.


On the first post you have a link to the translation, regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

boink said:


> I was looking through the algae part and it says for BGA, there is too much PO4, and for GSA, not enough PO4. I've got both, sooo whats up?
> 
> My nitrates are about 15 ppm at the end of the day, before autodosing kicks in.


Those two different algae probably bloom during different imbalances, after that you reach a balance so they stop bloom but they remain. The idea behing looking for a GSA friendly water chemistry is to avoid that your water chemistry becames the ball of a pinball.
So, clean GSA and see if they show up again the day after. If they do, use the Po4 protocol.
H2o2 works well with BBA.
Regards


----------



## MrBlackThumb

Christian,

Another question please. Now that I add more PO4, I do have a bit of GDA forming on the glass. Reading on your suggestion on MCI, I need to strive for 1:4 ratio of Ca:Mg. I measured my Ca++ last night, it's about 60ppm and GH is 10 degree. That leaves about 7 ppm of Mg. So my ratio is out of whack 60:7 of Ca:Mg. My question is does the Ca ppm needs to be at certain ppm so the plants are not deficient in Ca?

I mean if I strive to maintain 20ppm of Ca with 1:4 ratio, the Mg would be at 80ppm. This will bring my GH to 21 degree which is very high. To maintain 1:4 ratio, then I would need to bring Ca ppm way low. Would this induce Ca deficiency in plants?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Good point.

You can´t add Mg to reach the ratio I suggest if you have a high level of Ca as you actually have.

Seems that a high level of Mg could be toxic, I read this several times but I could´t find info about how much is the limit we can add.

So I made it simple and I follow the standard suggestion about adding 5 ppm as the limit.

I suggest to add Mg until 5 ppm, this is arbitrary as I mentioned. It´s means 1.25 ppm of Ca if you use the ratio I suggest. Sounds not enough, right? 

1.25 ppm is the low end of Ca you can use safely about algae. 

If you have plants with priority consumption of Ca like rotala macrandra or ammania gracilis, then you will need more Ca for sure. One thing is clear, you will never need 4 times more Ca than Mg.

The ratio should not be follow as a rule, is more like the north in the compass, It help you to know where you are and where you should go. That´s it.

If using ro water is not an option, then I suggest you work about Po4. You probably are adding the Po4 improperly. Have you done the Po4 protocol to find out the amount you need?

Regards


----------



## MrBlackThumb

Christian,

I do have R. macrandra and A. gracilis. I'm using RO water, but my substrate (mineralized top soil) is leaching GH and KH, I think it's leaching CaCO3. On top of that I didn't have Ca++ test kit until several days ago so I added CaSO4 hemihydrate. GH is now 10 and KH is about 4. I hope I can reduce the GH and KH by regular water change, every 2-3 weeks.

PO4 is supplied currently about 0.2 ppm, nitrate at 1 ppm and Potassium at about 1.33 ppm. I was following PPS Pro but I doubled the suggested PO4 of 0.1 ppm since I had GSA on anubias leaves and little on the glass. I may have just added too much PO4, I'll try 0.15ppm. Those are per day values. Overall I think it's working good. With 0.2 ppm PO4 I don't have GSA anymore but GDA is starting to appear. This is why I asked you the question regarding Ca:Mg ratio.

Thank you.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Okidoki, then read about the Po4 protocol so you can find exactly the amount of Po4 you need without GSA or GDA. 
Regards


----------



## jjlin78

hi christian, i'm having a staghorn problem and i don't add anything to increase my gh because my water is already really high in gh and i don't have access to ro/di water. reading what you said about the ca:mg ratio, staghorn algae would mean that my mg levels are too high. if i start adding ca to the tank will the algae die? or would it be like the po4 protocol where the gsa doesn't die, but when you scrape it off the glass it won't grow back. thanks a lot.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

I never tried this way to solve that algae, but It could work, If you try it, let me know what happens. 
You don´t have marble in your tank, right?
Regards


----------



## jjlin78

Christian_rubilar said:


> I never tried this way to solve that algae, but It could work, If you try it, let me know what happens.
> You don´t have marble in your tank, right?
> Regards


i don't think their is any marble. their was some slate, but i removed some of it. have you ever come across any mg priority plants in your studies?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

jjlin78 said:


> i don't think their is any marble. their was some slate, but i removed some of it. have you ever come across any mg priority plants in your studies?


Ok, even the composition of slate (pizarra in spanish) vary, they have moscovita wich contains Mg (K2(Mg,Al)4-5(Al,Si)8O20(OH)4) and Mica (I don´t know the English word) that contains Mg too. Remove all the slate and make a water change. Test the water before and after: Ca - GH you get Mg.

http://redescolar.ilce.edu.mx/redescolar/publicaciones/publi_rocas/pizarra.htm
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscovita
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mica

Regards


----------



## Andy Ritter

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*

Hello Christian,

I have read and re-read this thread with much interest. It is very interesting, and I really appreciate your posting this information for others to have access to it. However, I have a few questions that I'm hoping that you can help me with.

First of all, let me say that I haven't begun utilizing this Method of Controlled Imbalances. I am still just evaluating the methods that you have listed and trying to determine whether I should give them a try or not.

My first question has to do with the calcium to magnesium relationship. You said:


Christian_rubilar said:


> b) Ca and Mg
> 
> The 4:1 ratio Ca:Mg cannot be successfully used in the planted aquarium. When there is too much PO4 in the water and you have an imbalance in the Ca:Mg ratio, you will have GDA. In my experience, if you add these macros, the ratio should be the opposite 1:4 Ca:Mg. The immediate consequence of this idea is that you can't add too much Ca because Mg cannot be added in large amounts.
> 
> You know when you have an imbalance related to Ca because you will have rodophyta algae sp.2 (look for the picture at the algae control chapter) or, if you also have at the same time an imbalance related to PO4, then you will have an issue with GDA.


I decided to pull some of my planted aquarium books off the shelf and see how the information in them compared to yours. First I checked in The Optimum Aquarium by Kaspar Horst and Horst E. Kipper. They thoroughly examined the water parameters from several locations in Thailand and at different times of the year to see how differing water levels affected the dissolved minerals.

For instance, analysis of a stream in Lam Kaen discovered:

High water: Ca - .8 mg/l; Mg - .3 mg/l; (ratio of 2.66 Ca:1 Mg)

Low water: Ca - .6 mg/l; Mg - .23 mg/l; (ratio of 2.61 Ca: 1 Mg)

Normal water: Ca - .69 mg/l; Mg - .3 mg/l; (ratio of 2.3 Ca: 1 Mg)

Then they checked a stream by Lam Pi village at several locations:

Waterfall lower part of source: Ca - .51 mg/l; Mg - .18 mg/l; (ratio of 2.83 Ca: 1 Mg)

Area of stream Cryptocoryne cordata was growing: Ca - .30 mg/l; Mg - .13 mg/l; (ratio of 2.31 Ca: 1 Mg)

End region of stream where Crinum thaianum and Crypt. ciliata was growing: Ca - .40 mg/l; Mg - .21 mg/l; (ratio of 1.9 Ca: 1 Mg)

I then checked my copy of Aquarium Plants by Christel Kasselmann. This book gives many examples of water parameters from various habitats.

Rio *****, Brazil: Ca hardness - .26 degrees; Mg hardness - traces; (ratio?)

Rio Copal, Peru: Ca Hardness - .07 degrees; Mg hardness - .05 degrees; (ratio 1.4:1)

Rio Tapajoz, Brazil: Ca Hardness - .21 degrees; Mg hardness - .03 degrees; (ratio 7:1)

Rio Chinipo, Peru: Ca Hardness - 3.6 degrees; Mg hardness - 1.3 degrees; (ratio 2.77:1)

Amazon, Rio Solimoes, Brazil: Ca Hardness - 1.08-1.2 degrees; Mg hardness - .03-.14 degrees; (ratio 36-8.57:1)

Rio Ucayali, Peru: Ca Hardness - 2.9 degrees; Mg hardness - 0 degrees; (ratio?)

Rio Guapore, Brazil: Ca Hardness - .41 degrees; Mg hardness - 0 degrees; (ratio?)

Rio Sipao, Venezuela: Ca Hardness - .13 degrees; Mg hardness - .10 degrees; (ratio 1.3:1)

Rio Aro, Venezuela: Ca Hardness - .51 degrees; Mg hardness - .07 degrees; (ratio 7.29:1)

Rio Parana, Argentina: Ca Hardness - .51 degrees; Mg hardness - 0 degrees; (ratio?)

Rio Uruguay, Argentina: Ca Hardness - .31 degrees; Mg hardness - 0 degrees; (ratio?)

Rio Yanayacu, Peru: Ca Hardness - 5.11 degrees; Mg hardness - .77 degrees; (ratio 6.64:1)

Sepik River, Papua New Guinea: Ca Hardness - 1.8 degrees; Mg hardness - .7 degrees; (ratio 2.57:1)

Let me also say that I am not a chemist, so it is highly likely that I am totally screwing up with my analyzation of this information (note that I didn't know how to figure out a ratio when the Mg was 0; I also don't know if it is correct to compare degrees of one to degrees of the other). However, none of these comparisons have the Ca levels higher than the Mg levels as you are suggesting, and all of these examples are from waters with plants like what we are trying to grow, not from terrestrial situations. I am not experiencing GDA or rodophyta algae, but am just curious as to whether I should try and experiment with the ratio of Ca to Mg in my tank to see if I can get even better growth than I am now. So my question is, how did you come up with the idea that 1:4 Ca to Mg is ideal?

My next question has to do with Potassium. You said:



Christian_rubilar said:


> c) Potassium
> 
> One of the special features of the MCI is that I don't recommend the use of potassium sulfate (KHSO4). There are some reasons. The first one is that if you add this macro, the NO3 will be uptaken and as soon as you reach zero you will have algae issues.


What do you mean that the NO3 will be uptaken? Also, I looked up KHSO4 and found that it is actually called Potassium hydrogen sulfate or Potassium bisulfate. Did you mean to put K2SO4?

Also, you said:



Christian_rubilar said:


> Hygrophila polisperma is a plant that consumes priority K. I have read that it is propose to be use as a bio-indicator of the lack of K. This is a mistake; the uptaking of K with this plant in your aquarium becomes bulky. You can put this plant just with water and potassium sulfate and it will grow well.


What do you mean by bulky? I am having issues with my Hygrophila polysperma not doing well, and I have high levels of K (40 ppm).

Thanks so much for your assistance. Like I said before, I am enjoying reading this thread and trying to learn more about how to have my aquarium do well.

Andy


----------



## Christian_rubilar

1) Andy, I tried the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio with no success. 
I read the info you posted some years ago, I have those books. But the info is tricky. Let talk about Parana River with is just in front of my city. The water is brown dark, the water of ours tanks is clear, isn´t it?

I decide to try arbitrary the opposite ratio and it just worked, no more algae issues.

2) I mean if you add potassium sulfate, then all the Kno3 will be up taken and as soon as it reach zero you will have issues with algae. I am limiting K.

About the KHSO4, this is typo mistake, it is K2SO4.

3) Bulky, I mean that this plant requires more K than others, for this reason is a mistake to use it as a bioindicator of lack of K. 

Regards


----------



## kastanje

Some remarks concerning green water.

Green water can\will develop when there's a lot of NO3, PO4 in combination with low CO2 levels. Green water is caused by different types of species as floating one celled green algae, cyanobacteria, plankton. The more light, the faster these organisms will duplicate. Daylight and esp. sunlight can colour the water within hours.

When this occurs in an existing aquarium, it's best to stop feeding the fish. Many fish species will eat the organisms cuasing green water when they get hungry and the water will be clean within a week.

It's not advisible to change water as long as the water is coloured, once the water is clear again, a water change is recommended.


----------



## Glaucus

Christian_rubilar said:


> 2) I mean if you add potassium sulfate, then all the Kno3 will be up taken and as soon as it reach zero you will have issues with algae. I am limiting K.
> 
> About the KHSO4, this is typo mistake, it is K2SO4.


With a constant / daily supply of Kno3, how will adding KHSO4 deplete N?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Glaucus said:


> With a constant / daily supply of Kno3, how will adding KHSO4 deplete N?


mmmmmm, please, read the MCI again, you are missing the whole idea.
1) I suggest not ussing potasium sulfate;
2) The idea is that you never deplete NO3
3) The Kno3 generic protocol looks for depleting Po4.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

kastanje said:


> Some remarks concerning green water.
> 
> Green water can\will develop when there's a lot of NO3, PO4 in combination with low CO2 levels. Green water is caused by different types of species as floating one celled green algae, cyanobacteria, plankton. The more light, the faster these organisms will duplicate. Daylight and esp. sunlight can colour the water within hours.
> 
> When this occurs in an existing aquarium, it's best to stop feeding the fish. Many fish species will eat the organisms cuasing green water when they get hungry and the water will be clean within a week.
> 
> It's not advisible to change water as long as the water is coloured, once the water is clear again, a water change is recommended.


Good info, thank you!


----------



## Glaucus

The point i am trying to make is that the way you put it is that adding K causes N to somehow reach zero like its an unconditional law or causing a chemical reaction while its not. This situation could occur in a closed system with no N replenishment but thats not the case with proper daily fertilisation. Adding extra K is not inducing a chemical reaction causing N to reach zero is it? Following Liebigs law of the minimum its a sound idea to keep K in check as to keep N on top but i see little harm in adding additional K as long as there is a steady supply of N. I could be wrong but i think that this is what the confusion is about. Other than that i like the theory.


----------



## dariuszk24

Hy Christian i read this thread very carefull ,but i wont ask you (about ratio Ca-Mg 1:4)
becouse i use RO water and remineralize myself -how many Ca and Mg you have in your tank (ppm)
thanx.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Glaucus said:


> The point i am trying to make is that the way you put it is that adding K causes N to somehow reach zero like its an unconditional law or causing a chemical reaction while its not. This situation could occur in a closed system with no N replenishment but that´s not the case with proper daily fertilisation. Adding extra K is not inducing a chemical reaction causing N to reach zero is it? Following Liebigs law of the minimum its a sound idea to keep K in check as to keep N on top but i see little harm in adding additional K as long as there is a steady supply of N. I could be wrong but i think that this is what the confusion is about. Other than that i like the theory.


I think that there is a lot of confusion about K. K is very important but it doesn´t mean that more is better. This is precisely what Liebigs Law says.

The method I propose limits K, that´s the idea.

If we add more K and K stop being the limiting factor, following Liebigs Law, more No3 will be uptaken. I don´t want that because then I lose where am I about the water chemistry and algae.

I don´t talk about chemistry reaction, I always talk about uptaking, I thought It was clear.

About adding more K, If your plants have symptoms of lack of K, you can add extra K. If you want to add K, be my guest as long as it works.

I like Theory too, but I think that Liebigs law has been misunderstood because Hydroponical concepts were used to developed some fertilizing approach like EI. I propose another wiew over the same topics and a different interpretation of the same theory. I mentioned in the MCI that my goal is to discover the way things works under the water instead of to assume that it is the same than over the water.

Under the water we have algae and it´s not all about plant grow rate.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

dariuszk24 said:


> Hy Christian i read this thread very carefull ,but i wont ask you (about ratio Ca-Mg 1:4)
> becouse i use RO water and remineralize myself -how many Ca and Mg you have in your tank (ppm)
> thanx.


My tap water has 1.5 ppm of Ca. So I usually add between 3 to 4 ppm of Mg.

Regards


----------



## HockiumGuru

To eliminate BGA I see that the most commonly suggested means is by KNO3 dosage. Would this be through the dry fertilizer or a liquid form?
I have the dry fertilizer on hand.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

HockiumGuru said:


> To eliminate BGA I see that the most commonly suggested means is by KNO3 dosage. Would this be through the dry fertilizer or a liquid form?
> I have the dry fertilizer on hand.


The dry Kno3 is the best option. Some fertilizers like Seachem No3 aren´t just Kno3 and the MCI won´t work. Regards


----------



## HockiumGuru

Christian_rubilar said:


> The dry Kno3 is the best option. Some fertilizers like Seachem No3 aren´t just Kno3 and the MCI won´t work. Regards


and the measurement used is still 1g/50 gallons, mixed in tank water and placed into a waterflow i assume.


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## Christian_rubilar

Yes, this is the daily dozing for algae control. Double check Co2. Regards


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## HockiumGuru

Christian_rubilar said:


> Yes, this is the daily dozing for algae control. Double check Co2. Regards


thanks a bunch for the fast responses.


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## Christian_rubilar

You just were lucky I was on line. Regards


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## dobie832

For your dosing recommendations, when you say 1 gram of KNO3 per 50 gallons. Are you talking the given tank size or actual amount of water in the tank?
The reason I ask is that most tank volumes are derived from measurements on the outside and NOT the actual amount of water the tank holds. For instance, a 75 gal show tank when filled with gravel, rocks, wood, plants, etc probably only has about 63 gallons of water.


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## Christian_rubilar

I use the tank size. It is arbitrary and irrelevant. 
This way you are adding 3.24 ppm of Kno3 per day, 22.68 a way. If you don´t reach GSA the fisrt week, the second you will ad 6,48 ppm a day. Is it clear?
Regards


----------



## denlt

Hallo, Christian,

I always had problem with GSA algae. Always. So I decided to give a try to your method.

So, how it was:

Tank - 60 L or 15 G 60cm x 30cm x 45cm(H)
T5 4x24W - 3 hours 48W, 5 hours - 96 W (DIY no reflectors)
Hard tap water with no RO - 12 KH around 8.1 PH (40% WC weekly)
NO3 - 18 ppm per week
PO4 - 2 ppm per week
Fe from Plantex - 0.5 ppm per week.
CO2 - one bubble p/s (it was a bit low due to hard water)
3/4 of all plants are anubias and microsorums of different type.
1/4 - Hemiantus Cuba, Hemiantus mcrothemod. and some other plants.
So high light and low light plants in one tank, what can be better .
Minor BBA, minor dust algae.

How it is now:

Tank - the same, light - untouched.
Started mix RO water - 6 KH, 7.1 PH
CO2 - got it 3 bubbles p/s (for more shrimps get sick  )
Fe - 0.1 ppm weekly (reduced as per MCI method)
NO3 protocol - GSA on 3rd day with 3ppm daily (so 9ppm weekly)
PO4 protocol - I am on 3rd week, and I add 0.9 ppm daily. Today is day nr. 5 of 3rd week
and total amount of PO4 added is 4,5 ppm :-k. I still got GSA on my glass! But general situation
with GSA getting much better. If I got total all glass covered with GSA before, so now it is only some
areas on the glass. Also I got issue with RODOPHYTAS SP. 3 on my microsorum narrow, short hair algae on my glass (each hair grows separately #-o), and some GDA on my glass.

So should I add more PO4? It is a bit confusing to me. So high level (I am from IE method)? In other hand 3/4 of all plants are consumers of a lot of PO4 (didn't know that before ). And what should I do with RODOPHYTAS SP. 3? As I understand I reduced Ca with mixing RO water. But the only one resource of Mg was Plantex (not so much of Mg). I did reduced it as well (Fe only 0.1 ppm). So no additional Mg source. ??? Yep and it looks like Hemiantus Cuba has problems with NO3, lower leaves getting yellow, some holes and some of them melted. Not enough NO3?

Wow. I think it's enough for beginning .
Thanks for comments.

Regards,
Eugene.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Eugene, you should continue increasing weekly the dose of the Po4 protocol until one day the GSA doesn´t show up. You have to clean the glass every day, so you know if they continue blooming or not.

I use to cultivate microsorums and anubias in monoculture with high light (12 watts/gallon) and Co2 with no fish or shrimp, I got bored about trying to find out the consumption. They uptake a lot of Po4. So, don´t worry about the 4 ppm you are adding, you are probably close to find out the high end. As you are discovering right now, the protocols can surprise you about the way your tank works. In facts using the EI you were limiting Po4 .

About Kno3, I suggest you add no less than 20 ppm a week. When you have so many Po4 consumer plants they interference with the Kno3 protocol. If you are having other algae they are usually related to an imbalance about No3, usually a lack of it. Rodopyta sp 3 and GDA are antagonist. So, they probably bloom in different water chemistry condition, but they don´t simple died when you water chemistry changes. So you should see if they stop or continue blooming. 

The idea about the protocols is to do them no more than 1 or 2 weeks. If in your case this is taking more time, then you should add Fe in the morning and the Po4 in the evening. This way you shouldn´t have problems about interferences and deficiencies. But 0.1 ppm is a safe doze, if you see iron deficiencies you should increase slowly Fe until you reach the high end. I understand than HC may needs more Fe.

Regards


----------



## denlt

Thank you very much, Christian.

Will continue dosing PH4 till the high end. Yes I do everyday glass cleaning.

It's very interesting to feel some confusion, when some method was used as a rule,
with some understanding of these rules, but without еxact understanding how to
control some type of algae. Even the rule of 10:1 loses the meaning in case with my tank .
Each tank is unique - and each ratio of ferts should by unique too.

"He starts to believe!" - Matrix 

Regards,
Eugene.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

denlt said:


> Each tank is unique - and each ratio of ferts should by unique too.


Touché!



denlt said:


> "He starts to believe!" - Matrix


Jajajajaja

Regards


----------



## dzoni

Hi Christian,

I would like to ask - how much of GSA should I consider as "reaching GSA" in KNO3 protocol?

Because normally I have about 30-50 dots on my 100x50 cm front glass after one month. Now, after 2 weeks of using KNO3 protocol, I have about 100-150 dots with average of 10 new dots per day.

What is my "reaching GSA" point?

I have problems with only one algae (see the picture below). According to your description it may be either A.3. Sp. SHORT GREEN ALGAE or some kind of Cladophora. I am trying to get rid of it for over one year. I tried everything from low light / total darknes, low / excess fertilising, excess of CO2 but nothing ever helped. Before that I had no problems with almost any algae.

Now I did everything exactly according to your advices (light, CO2...) and performed two weeks of KNO3 protocol, but the algae grow doesn't slow down at all. My tests show over 30 ppm of NO3 now which is more than I ever had and I am afraid to continue KNO3 protocol.

I also think that my problem may be related to plants composition - though my aquarium is fully planted, 90% of my plants is Vesicularia dubayana, which is real slow-grower and this algae loves it. Rest of plants is Utricularia graminifolia, HC, and Pogostemon helferi.

Can you advise what else can I do except replacing Vesicularia with some fast growers?

Thank you very much for any advice


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Well, 1 spot of GSA is enough. If the Kno3 protocol is well done, you No3 should not rise. Your plants are not consuming it and it is all about uptake. 

That algae seems to be some kind of cladophora. Usually it is related to an imbalance between Co2 and Light. You should increase Co2 and its distribution or reduce light. How do you know you have reach to Co2 roof?

I don´t think that algae will simple died, you should remove it, usually I use a comb or a stick.

Kno3 is not the best choice for that moss, potassium sulfate is but with low light. You don´t need to change your plants, perhaps just to tune the fertilizing. Moss usually have priority consuming of K and Po4 and ammonia instead of No3. So, if you have tons of moss, that´s explain a different nutrients needs. The MCI needs fast growing and meadow plants to work properly. 
Regards


----------



## dzoni

Thank you for your response. 

I admit that I didn't perform your test for max Co2 with shrimps. I just considered it to be enough by massive pearling of fast growing plants. I have 200 liters tank and my Co2 setting is 1 bubble per second going directly to intake of my external filter, so it goes through the whole filter and the propeller. I was afraid to jeopardize my shrimps, but maybe I should do the test after all. 

However your info regarding different consumption priorities of moss definitely persuaded me to get rid of it and get back to fast growing plants, because I like your whole idea of MCI too much to abandon it so soon  And removing this algae manually becomes a bit boring after one year...


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Well, O2 pearling is tricky, it is related to many other factors. I have very soft water, it is difficult to achieve it. It happens only after the water change.

The idea about the test I propose is to be in front of your tank one day, increasing Co2 slowly every 20-30 minutes so you can see in advance when you reach the limit. After that, you can tune it two poins down instead of one just in case because of your shrimps. And you can use some Excell to compensate this 5 ppm less that you are adding. But I am speculating  right now.

If you like moss, taiwan moss needs more light and consumes more nutrients and it is more beautiful.

Regards


----------



## agy

I'm impressed with information. Thanks a lot. 
Please advice 

I have high calcium concentration in tap and for ro unit haven't budget. 
I fertilize PMDD + PO4, low light at 1w gal(will upgrade to 2w very soon).
Water change in 100 gal tank every 4-nightly 20%(thats approx. 40% weekly), big tank 

I'm very interested about mg : ca ratio

Would You recommend add more mg to PMDD recipe gain mg ratio higher ?
Or this ratio work only with high light tanks ?
And what's maximum ppm not harmfull for plants and stock ?
Also would You recommend lower Potasium ?( till now i don't see any Potasium defiences, but i have some plants who realy starve - maybe due to high stock of fast growing plants and too high calcium level).

I use this recipe:

1 Tablespoon Potassium Nitrate
2 Tablespoons Potassium Sulphate
1 Tablespoon Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts)
500 ml distilled H2O

Daily dosage:
Macros 20ml on 400L every day + micro 10ml fake TPN(custom make from traces with same element % amounts as TPN).
Phophate sometimes dose, sometimes not(I'm too wait sometimes when GSA visit front glas , no cash for tests and i have a lot fast growing plants and impossibly to know all time how much is necessary, also fish feeding i have every day different and try to change in my aquarium design every week something)


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Low tech aquariums have different rules.I don´t think that you should care about the Mg:Ca ratio unless you have algae issues. I didn´t find info about how much Mg is toxic I just found info that a high level is toxic. So, as usually is recommended a max of 3 ppm per week, I suggest (arbitrary) this amount until I have more accurate info about it.
I apologize but for me info about tablespoons is basic Chinese. If you translate this info in ppms with the Fertilator I can answer you properly.
However I have zero experience in low tech tanks.
Regards


----------



## gillt

Hello Christian,

I started your KNO3 method a week ago today, but my Green water and GDA are still blooming. I've also read through this entire thread, so thanks for your continued patience. 

1. My 25 gal tank has been setup for 3 weeks. 

2. I have pressurized CO2 with about a bubble per second. My only shrimp died unfortunately. 

3. Started with 3.5 watts per gallon but cut back to just under 2 watts per gallon after a GDA and Greenwater bloom. 

4. I started with the EI method and after the second week started to get, like I said, GDA and greenwater (I have indirect exposure to sunlight). I'm growing only dwarf hair grass, riccia and a carpet of HC. 

5. After the second week, I did a 50% H2O change and started with your KNO3 method. At this time I also added 5 rummynose tetras, 2 oto's and a cory. 

A week's gone by on this method, I still have greenwater, GDA and now BGA (which I'm somewhat controlling with H2O2). 

I'll do a 50% H2O2 change today and start adding double the KNO3 protocol (1gram per 25 gallons). 

I clean the front of the glass everyday of GDA, but have not seen a sign of GSA. Is there anything else you suggest I do? 

Thanks,


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Well, the GDA protocol is more than just adding Kno3. You should reduce Ca and/or Po4 too. Do you know how many ppms of them you have?
If you have green water you probably have too much Kno3 and Po4 already. So, you should decrease the levels of both before starting doing anything.
If you have no shrimp or fish, add more Co2.
Have you check with the water company if Po4 comes with the tap water?
Regards


----------



## gillt

I thought the 50% H20 change before starting the protocol was supposed to reduce P04 and Ca sufficiently? I plan on doing another water change today.

I don't have any test kits at this time. 

My question is: how much of a water change should I do today and should I double the Kno3 protocol (1 gram/25 gal) or should I go back to the 1/2 gram/25gal? 

My tap water is very soft. I have not checked it for PO4 yet. 

I do have fish, so I can't up the CO2 too much, but I'll do the test you recommend. 

Do HC and riccia update PO4 or NO2?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Well, depends. With No3 the W C hange usually is enough. With Po4 sometimes. If you have 2 or 3 ppm it will be not enough. The best is to double check using a test. Iron probably is too high if you were using the EI.
But, you can try if you don´t have a test.
If you have GW you should use the UV filter or Tetra Baktozym, for times the doze.
You can also focus on GD and leave GW for later. It´s up to you.
Regards


----------



## gillt

I did a 50% water change and just checked with City Water in my area

Out of the tap:

phosphates: 3.9-2.44 micrograms/L
CaCO3: 22-26 mg/L
Nitrate: 0.074-0.145 mg/L


----------



## Christian_rubilar

I suggest you condition the water with anti-phosphate resin before adding it to the aquarium.
If you were adding Po4 according to EI, that explains the Po4 huge excess: GWA.
Caco3 is Calcium carbonates, you need to know just calcium and gh. However, if you have less Po4 you won´t have any GDA.
Or you can change your plants, that´s up to you.
Regards


----------



## gillt

Thanks for all the advice.
I'll get the resin.
Could you suggest some plants that uptake PO4? 

Best


----------



## Brilliant

Wtf happened? This is like black magic explained in text.

Open thought like this really progresses the hobby when we can establish cause and effect. It is interesting to read what you post and relate it to my own style of dosing. It seems to be connecting some dots. Thanks.


----------



## Elohim_Meth

Christian_rubilar said:


> I suggest you condition the water with anti-phosphate resin before adding it to the aquarium.


It is micrograms, not milligrams. He has only 0.00244...0.0039 ppm PO4 in tap water, IME it is almost zero.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Elohim_Meth said:


> It is micrograms, not milligrams. He has only 0.00244...0.0039 ppm PO4 in tap water, IME it is almost zero.


Ups, my mistake. I apologize. Your water is perfect, you can use it to reduce Po4 in your tank. Regards


----------



## gillt

That's not correct. I micro anything is 10 to the minus 6 of a whole unit, be it gram or liter. 

My tap really is 3.9-2.44 ppm phosphate. 
I bought the API phosphate test kit yesterday. Tested the tap and it looked about zero. Tested my aquarium water and it read about 1.5ppm. 

It appears I need to calibrate the test kit.


----------



## Elohim_Meth

Yes, micro is 0.000001
1 mcg = 0.001 mg
1 ppm = 1 mg/L
If you have 3.9-2.44 *micrograms*/L then it is 0.00244...0.0039 ppm.


----------



## gillt

Yes, you're right about the conversion.

I measured my tank water and it's 1.5 ppm phosphate. I kent phosphate remover in my canister and now it's down to 0.5 ppm. 
My NO3 in the tank is 20ppm. 
I'll do another 50 percent water change, and start the NO3 protocol. 

Thanks


----------



## Yo-han

Thanks Christian, for sharing this wonderful publication. I live in the Netherlands and the people making those famous dutch aquascapes are almost all doing this under low-light condition. Plants don't grow really fast under low light so as a result we need to keep fertilizers as low as possible to prevent algae-outbreaks, kind of like your approach. 'Fertilizer-pools' are not really an option. Inspired by the stunning nature aquascapes, I set up a high-light (high-tech) 100 gallon aquarium. ADA-style cabinet, open hood, co2, etc.
The fertilizing method I was using till recently was keeping my PO4 as low as possible (not adding anything unless I spotted signs of GSA) and keeping my NO3 at 5ppm (measuring it twice a week).
I had some GDA sometimes but it disappeared (after cleaning daily) in a few days usually so I didn't really bother. 
Because the fact that I couldn't really use information from friends because they are all running lower light conditions I started searching the internet and found your MCI thread. I checked the water parameters from my water company and I had high calcium levels (63 ppm) in my tap-water. Fortunately for me I was already using 1/3 of RO water to decrease hardness, otherwise I assume it would have been way worse. I don't really know how I am going to lower this because of using more RO water will decrease my hardness to much but I must say it helped me a lot in understanding this algae.

Convinced by your expertise, I thought I give your KNO3-protocol a shot. This would really help me using less NO3 test kits, and so saving money. Unfortunately after I reached the GSA-point I started seeing BGA at my hemianthus callitrichoides and having GSA at my glass at the same time. Can you explain to me how is this possible, because I thought your were saying it is not possible to have other algae at the same time with GSA?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han, have you done the Co2 protocol before the Kno3 protocol?
You might have low Co2. Please double check it.
Regards


----------



## Yo-han

Christian_rubilar said:


> Yo-han, have you done the Co2 protocol before the Kno3 protocol?
> You might have low Co2. Please double check it.
> Regards


I didn't do that indeed, but I have a aqua medic 1000 reactor with 1200 L/h flowing through it, and if I turn up the CO2 anymore, the reactor is starting to fill up with CO2 and it is no longer dissolving. I assumed I was already quite near to its max. I turned it up a little bot more and will be checking my shrimp the next few hours. You think this will make a big difference?

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> You think this will make a big difference?
> Regards


Yes!
You should improve the efficiency using a small powehear just over the diffusor you have. But be very carefull, we don`t want an overdoze. The idea is that the microbubles pass by the power hear`s rotor.
You should do this one day you can spend some time watching your tank.
Another option is to use 2 diffusers.
Regards


----------



## sam22sam

Hi,

I have GDA in my tank and have been waiting for the life cycel to end for about 6 weeks now and it hasnt. 

Here are the levels:

No3 - 15-20ppm
po4 - .6 ppm

I am not able to test for pottasium but dose to maintain 1ppm of pottasium using the fertilator.

Recently I have been having fluctuations in co2 level. I have a long term monitor that shows high level very often and then I have to turn c02 off. I also noticed the level of photosynthesis in the tank has come down.

Thanks,
Sam

In addition to GDA I have Rodophyta SP3. I am confused on the CA - MG imbalance as these two contradict the ca:mg levels. For GDA you mention that the CA level is high in the ratio and for Rodophyta it is the MG level being high.

First of all I am not sure how to measure these levels. I also dont have a means to measure the K levels in my tank but have glosso in the tank so know that there is defenite need for K suplement and I have seen the Gloso do well after the K suplementation. 

Would you have an advice for me. I think I can go weeks with the GDA but am not sure I will be able to solve. 6 weeks is long wait and I have not seen too much of an improvement. Initially after the 2 week things had started clearing up but then things are stuck. The GDA is not very thick but enough to cloud the whole tank.

Look forward to hearing you view on this and possible method for elimnation. I am not able to measure a gram and dose dry but if you let me know the ppm to be maintained I am pretty sure I can do that...

Thanks,
Sam


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Hi, algae need certain condition to bloom but, after those conditions change most of them remain. So, each algae you have is a photography of certain water condition. An imbalance where there is too much Ca and Po4 regarding the GD and after that, a lack of Ca and too much Mg.
You should always focus on the actual bloom. In this case, the Mg`s rodophyta.
I suggest you clean the glasses of GD, 50% water change, you do the Co2 protocol, after that, the Kno3 protocol.
Try to find out an analizys of your tap water.
Regards


----------



## Yo-han

Christian_rubilar said:


> Yes!
> You should improve the efficiency using a small powehear just over the diffusor you have. But be very carefull, we don`t want an overdoze. The idea is that the microbubles pass by the power hear`s rotor.
> You should do this one day you can spend some time watching your tank.
> Another option is to use 2 diffusers.
> Regards


Hmm.. This makes it even more complicated. I'm using CO2 with pH controller, so as you said, I turned down the pH and thus turning up the CO2. But I turned it down till a pH of 6.1. My shrimps still not moving around, but my kH is around 5dH (tap water 6.8dH and using 1/4 of RO-water). So I recalibrated my electrode, but still as low as 6.1.

I know you said a CO2-chart is not accurate but calculating the CO2 gives me an amount of > 120mg/L CO2. I don't want to kill my beautiful redback angelfish. Should I continue?

Regards!


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> Hmm.. This makes it even more complicated. I'm using CO2 with pH controller, so as you said, I turned down the pH and thus turning up the CO2. But I turned it down till a pH of 6.1. My shrimps still not moving around, but my kH is around 5dH (tap water 6.8dH and using 1/4 of RO-water). So I recalibrated my electrode, but still as low as 6.1.
> 
> I know you said a CO2-chart is not accurate but calculating the CO2 gives me an amount of > 120mg/L CO2. I don't want to kill my beautiful redback angelfish. Should I continue?
> 
> Regards!


If you stay in front of the tank looking what is going on, you can´t kill them. I suggest you do the Co2 protocol on weekend. As you see, charts are useless. 
Regards


----------



## darkoon

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> Good point.
> 
> If you are using EI or PPS, first you need to decrease the amount of Po4 in water with water changes, otherwise you are absolutely right.
> 
> Once you have a reasonable amount of Po4 in water you play using Kno3 and Po4 protocol until you reach the balance. The point is that EI is right when freaks out about lack of nutrients because if you don´t have control of the water chemistry you never know which is the next algae bloom: BBA, GSA, GDA, etc.
> With the MCI there is no fear about imbalanceS because we know that the worst we can do is the simple GSA.
> 
> And there is a fact that all method assert, if there are healthy plants there is no algae. I agree, I only propose a different approach to reach this goal.
> 
> Regards


First of all, I would like to thank you Christian for sharing your knowledge and the results of your experiments. I spent days to read, digest, then re-read and re-digest this interesting discussion. I had the same questions that Turbosaurus had about how we could determine the minimum required NO3 by depleting PO4. 
My opinion on this MCI approach is that this is a excellent method/approach to find out the root cause of the outbreak of each type of algae. so that we know how to control them if we see one. 
As far as to find out how to be more efficient about fertilizing, I think the reversed approach may work better so that the plants do not have to suffer too much/too long from different nutrition deficiencies. that is if you're already doing EI or PPS, you can start reducing the dosage of each fertilizer individually. for example, we start with PO4 first, use regular daily dosage for everything else, but reduce PO4 to half of what you normally dose to see if you get GSA, if you don't, reduce it to 50% of that 50%, when you do get GSA, bump it up by 25% until GSA dissappears. keep experimenting until you reach the edge for PO4. next, do the same thing for KNO3, since BGA is a good indicator of NO3 level, and we already have figured out the right amount of PO4, with the same approach, we can find out the required minimum KNO3 dosage.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

I see the MCI as a diagnosis tool. And I propose a way to use the feedback we get. However, it is only a frame because as soon as you know why each algae happens and stop wasting time with myths, you can use this knowledge in any way you feel like. Many people continues using EI but tunned. It is very common than after the Kno3 and Po4 protocol they realize they were "limiting" those nutrients with the "no-limiting" EI.
I am not a priest and I don`t preach, so if you have a different way to use it and this works for you, lucky you!
However, you will have to walk your own path. Using the method I propose you have 5 years feedback to deal with any issue, any doubt.
Regards


----------



## flashbang009

I've got GDA and other algae in my tank, and i've had it for over a year now. This is a link to my current algae thread.

I'm now using RO/DI water so how should i go about changing my ca:mg ratio to combat the GDA (in addition to raising nitrates)? I mix the equivalent to a "Tom Barr's GH Booster" which is a 3:3:1 ratio of K2SO4:CaSO4:MgSO4 but i can change that ratio (and believe i need to). I also add Plantex CSM+B which has a slight amount of Mg.

I'm tired of the GDA and just want to get the tank back in balance, so any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## sam22sam

Christian_rubilar said:


> Hi, algae need certain condition to bloom but, after those conditions change most of them remain. So, each algae you have is a photography of certain water condition. An imbalance where there is too much Ca and Po4 regarding the GD and after that, a lack of Ca and too much Mg.
> You should always focus on the actual bloom. In this case, the Mg`s rodophyta.
> I suggest you clean the glasses of GD, 50% water change, you do the Co2 protocol, after that, the Kno3 protocol.
> Try to find out an analizys of your tap water.
> Regards


Hi,

Here are the water parameters as of now

PH - 6.4
Nitrate - 10 mg/l
Iron - .1 mg/l
Phospahate - .2 mg/l
Total Hardness(caco3) - 90 mg/l
Non-Carbonate hardness - 30 mg/l
Ca - 21.9 mg/l
Mg - 6.21 mg/l
K - 3.79/l

Could you tell me what to do next. I am still having trouble with GDA and now have black beard also.

I feel all these are realated.

Thanks,
Sam


----------



## Christian_rubilar

flashbang009 said:


> I've got GDA and other algae in my tank, and i've had it for over a year now. This is a link to my current algae thread.
> 
> I'm now using RO/DI water so how should i go about changing my ca:mg ratio to combat the GDA (in addition to raising nitrates)? I mix the equivalent to a "Tom Barr's GH Booster" which is a 3:3:1 ratio of K2SO4:CaSO4:MgSO4 but i can change that ratio (and believe i need to). I also add Plantex CSM+B which has a slight amount of Mg.
> 
> I'm tired of the GDA and just want to get the tank back in balance, so any advice would be appreciated.


Well, I believe that the first step should be related to Po4 and No3. Do you know how much Po4 is in your tank water? How much do you add per week? Usually the main problem is too much Po4 that is not uptaken. So, if the Po4 is high, reduce it until 0.1 ppm. Do the Co2 protocol. Then do the Kno3 protocol. If after this the issue is solved, you might not need to do the mg protocol.

Regarding GH Booster. If you use it properly it is Ok. After the Co2, No3, Po4 protocols are done, do the Mg one if you like. Remember to do not add more than 3 ppm of mg. If you don reach the algae related to Mg, it´s ok.
Regards

B


----------



## Christian_rubilar

sam22sam said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here are the water parameters as of now
> 
> PH - 6.4
> Nitrate - 10 mg/l
> Iron - .1 mg/l
> Phospahate - .2 mg/l
> Total Hardness(caco3) - 90 mg/l
> Non-Carbonate hardness - 30 mg/l
> Ca - 21.9 mg/l
> Mg - 6.21 mg/l
> K - 3.79/l
> 
> Could you tell me what to do next. I am still having trouble with GDA and now have black beard also.
> 
> I feel all these are realated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Sam


Have you done the Kno3 protocol cleaning the glasses of GDA every day? Have you done the Co2 protocol? Regards


----------



## Yo-han

Christian_rubilar said:


> Good point.
> 
> You can´t add Mg to reach the ratio I suggest if you have a high level of Ca as you actually have.
> 
> Seems that a high level of Mg could be toxic, I read this several times but I could´t find info about how much is the limit we can add.
> 
> So I made it simple and I follow the standard suggestion about adding 5 ppm as the limit.
> 
> I suggest to add Mg until 5 ppm, this is arbitrary as I mentioned. It´s means 1.25 ppm of Ca if you use the ratio I suggest. Sounds not enough, right?
> 
> 1.25 ppm is the low end of Ca you can use safely about algae.
> 
> If you have plants with priority consumption of Ca like rotala macrandra or ammania gracilis, then you will need more Ca for sure. One thing is clear, you will never need 4 times more Ca than Mg.
> 
> The ratio should not be follow as a rule, is more like the north in the compass, It help you to know where you are and where you should go. That´s it.
> 
> If using ro water is not an option, then I suggest you work about Po4. You probably are adding the Po4 improperly. Have you done the Po4 protocol to find out the amount you need?
> 
> Regards


From scientific papers I ones read that Mg is starting to get toxic for some species starting at concentrations of 30 ppm and most fish were doing fine at concentrations of 60 ppm. (in seawater 4000 ppm). BUT the ratio Ca:Mg was very important for this toxicity. When this ratio passes 1:9!! even low levels of Mg are toxic.
In one of his books Takashi Amano advises to keep Mg for fresh water tanks in a range of 10 - 15 ppm. And Ca concentrations at 20-40 ppm.

Regards


----------



## sam22sam

Christian_rubilar said:


> Have you done the Kno3 protocol cleaning the glasses of GDA every day? Have you done the Co2 protocol? Regards


Hi,

Here is what I have done. I added Kno3 till it reached 40 PMM but didnot clean the glass every day. I was hesitant to go further as this would be toxic to the fishes above this limit. I can try Kno3 regimen again with the glass clean everyday.

Here are some questions though

I have GDA right till the substrate; if I start cleaning every day that means I have to take out the complete water very day clean the glass and put back the water.. Is this what you would want me to do or do you want me to clean the glass with the water and bring down the level of water.
Second should I be doing anything for the CA:MG ratio?
I am not sure I understand the CO2 regime? I am trying to read the post and see where you have mentioned it. I missed it while reading earlier.

Thanks,
Sam


----------



## flashbang009

sam22sam said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is what I have done. I added Kno3 till it reached 40 PMM but didnot clean the glass every day. I was hesitant to go further as this would be toxic to the fishes above this limit. I can try Kno3 regimen again with the glass clean everyday.
> 
> Here are some questions though
> 
> I have GDA right till the substrate; if I start cleaning every day that means I have to take out the complete water very day clean the glass and put back the water.. Is this what you would want me to do or do you want me to clean the glass with the water and bring down the level of water.
> Second should I be doing anything for the CA:MG ratio?
> I am not sure I understand the CO2 regime? I am trying to read the post and see where you have mentioned it. I missed it while reading earlier.
> 
> Thanks
> Sam


This is the same issue I had when trying to do the no3 protocol. I also have gda the same as you


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> From scientific papers I ones read that Mg is starting to get toxic for some species starting at concentrations of 30 ppm and most fish were doing fine at concentrations of 60 ppm. (in seawater 4000 ppm). BUT the ratio Ca:Mg was very important for this toxicity. When this ratio passes 1:9!! even low levels of Mg are toxic.
> In one of his books Takashi Amano advises to keep Mg for fresh water tanks in a range of 10 - 15 ppm. And Ca concentrations at 20-40 ppm.
> 
> Regards


Interesting. I couldn´t findo info about toxic levels of Mg.
I will check it out as soon as I start my new tank. May you please send me this isnfo scanned by PM?
Thanks


----------



## Christian_rubilar

sam22sam said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is what I have done. I added Kno3 till it reached 40 PMM but didnot clean the glass every day. I was hesitant to go further as this would be toxic to the fishes above this limit. I can try Kno3 regimen again with the glass clean everyday.


After a water change, you should!

Here are some questions though



sam22sam said:


> I have GDA right till the substrate; if I start cleaning every day that means I have to take out the complete water very day clean the glass and put back the water.. Is this what you would want me to do or do you want me to clean the glass with the water and bring down the level of water.


Just clean it without depleating your tank.



sam22sam said:


> Second should I be doing anything for the CA:MG ratio?


Depends. Were you adding Ca?



sam22sam said:


> I am not sure I understand the CO2 regime? I am trying to read the post and see where you have mentioned it. I missed it while reading earlier.


I mentioned that charts are useless, so I propose to use shrimp as bioindicators.
Regards


----------



## Yo-han

As previously mentioned I had a severe algae outbreak after following the NO3 protocol. I guess algae were using the opportunity that I was not dosing any of the other macro's and micro's and increased enormous. I had Cyano, staghorn, GDA and GSA. Still confident in method I started using the algae control approach.

I first followed the CO2 protocol and then I started with the worse, Cyano. I removed most manual and blacked out my tank for 3,5 days. Before blackout I raised my low NO3 levels to 5 ppm and after the blackout Cyano was gone. As a happy surprise I noticed the staghorn was dying as well. It was still there but now it was very easy to remove manual.

With the Cyano gone my NO3 levels were not decreasing as fast as before any more and I started raising PO4 a little to 0.2 ppm while removing GSA. GSA disappeared and GDA decreased as well. By adding extra Mg I finally conquered all of the GDA. The only algae I've now is short green algae, I think it is oedogonium. But I'm confident I will beat that as well.

The reason why I started with the MCI is because I want to use as less test kits as possible (because of the unreliability and expenses).

When everything is stabilized again I'll give the NO3 protocol another shot, but isn't it possible to keep PO4 at an desired level during the NO3 protocol. And also dose micro's for an estimated amount?

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Ok, then you were short in No3 (ciano) and in Co2.

How much iron were you using?

About Po4, if you do the Po4 protocol instead of adding in ppms you will have no issues.

The lack of micros should be a cause of algae, but if you were using a lot of iron and you stoped it, then Po4 was the issue.

The only test I suggest to use is Po4.

Regards


----------



## Yo-han

Christian_rubilar said:


> Ok, then you were short in No3 (ciano) and in Co2.
> 
> How much iron were you using?
> 
> About Po4, if you do the Po4 protocol instead of adding in ppms you will have no issues.
> 
> The lack of micros should be a cause of algae, but if you were using a lot of iron and you stoped it, then Po4 was the issue.
> 
> The only test I suggest to use is Po4.
> 
> Regards


As Iron I use 'Easy Life Ferro'. I don't know the absolute amount. The manual says 10ml per 25 gallon will raise iron with 0,5 ppm. I use 10 ml per week for my 100 gallon thank, so I add 0.125 ppm a week (spread over three times on the days I'm not dosing PO4). And off course there is a little amount of Iron in my micro's. Should not be too much, or is it?

But do you have any experience whether the NO3 protocol can be used while dosing PO4 and micro's?

Regards!


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> As Iron I use 'Easy Life Ferro'. I don't know the absolute amount. The manual says 10ml per 25 gallon will raise iron with 0,5 ppm. I use 10 ml per week for my 100 gallon thank, so I add 0.125 ppm a week (spread over three times on the days I'm not dosing PO4). And off course there is a little amount of Iron in my micro's. Should not be too much, or is it?
> 
> But do you have any experience whether the NO3 protocol can be used while dosing PO4 and micro's?
> 
> Regards!


Well, you should add less iron for now.

No experience doing kno3 protocol while you add micros and Po4.

Regards


----------



## Yo-han

Christian_rubilar said:


> Well, you should add less iron for now.
> 
> No experience doing kno3 protocol while you add micros and Po4.
> 
> Regards


I'm not using any extra iron anymore and decreased the amount of micro's a little. I'll also buy a bigger cleaning crew next week to clean up the last algae. Extra shrimp and also Otocinclus'. Hope everything will be balanced in one or two weeks now. Thanks for all the advice!

I'm not (yet) really convinced by the fertilizing method (using the KNO3 protocol), but as a algae treatment guide, this is perfect. And using this as a treatment guide to balance everything out, I basically found out my optimum fertilizer levels. Also in the future I'll be able to tweak my fertilizers easier by using the algae as guide. So in the end it worked very well for me. Thanks for translating this method (my Spanish isn't that good) and all the replies and advice!	:thumbsup:

Regards


----------



## sam22sam

Christian_rubilar said:


> After a water change, you should!
> 
> Here are some questions though
> 
> Just clean it without depleating your tank.
> 
> Depends. Were you adding Ca?
> 
> I mentioned that charts are useless, so I propose to use shrimp as bioindicators.
> Regards


Hi,

I figured out what was wrong and why I went to 40-ppm without getting GSA. I was adding PO4 and maintaining it at about .6; missed the post where you mentioned in the beginning that PO4 should be zero.

I cleaned out and didnot fertlize on sunday. I fertilized about 5 ml of KNO3 yesterday and have GSA now. What should be the next step? 
What should I do about PO4 and K?
Should I dose Excel flourish that I use for my micros and trace?
What should I do about iron and what ppm should I maintain it at?
Please advise so that I may take the next step.


----------



## Yo-han

Hi Christian,

I was wondering what you think that causes the imbalance for staghorn. I had it before my blackout and I saw multiple threads about it, but it was missing in your algae guide. So you got any ideas?

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

sam22sam said:


> Hi,
> 
> I figured out what was wrong and why I went to 40-ppm without getting GSA. I was adding PO4 and maintaining it at about .6; missed the post where you mentioned in the beginning that PO4 should be zero.
> 
> I cleaned out and didnot fertlize on sunday. I fertilized about 5 ml of KNO3 yesterday and have GSA now. What should be the next step?
> What should I do about PO4 and K?
> Should I dose Excel flourish that I use for my micros and trace?
> What should I do about iron and what ppm should I maintain it at?
> Please advise so that I may take the next step.


Well, difficult to asnwer because you didn´t follow the protocol.
Let`s try.
If you were adding 0.6 ppm of Po4 and as soon as you stopped it you get GDA and your No3 raised, this means you have a Po4 priority consumption in your tank. So, add 20 ppm of No3 per week and do the Po4 protocol to find out how much you really need, perhaps the 0,6 is low.
After you finish the Po4 protocol you can star adding Fe. I suggest 0.1 ppm as a start.
Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> Hi Christian,
> 
> I was wondering what you think that causes the imbalance for staghorn. I had it before my blackout and I saw multiple threads about it, but it was missing in your algae guide. So you got any ideas?
> 
> Regards


Staghorn seems to be the algae related to an imbalance of Mg, too much Mg related to Ca.
Regards


----------



## sam22sam

Hi Christian,

Let me try to get my explanation right this time. I cleaned out and stopped fertilizing all macros and micros. Ensured my PO4 and Fe was near nill and then after a day started adding NO3. I dosed 5 ml and it took my NO3 ppm to about 15 and I got GSA at that time. I cleaned out and again dosed about 2.5ml for 2 days this did not get me GSA but got GDA, so I cleaned the glass ( the GDA go t into the water while cleaning) and continued to dose for another two days. The NO3 remained around 10ppm this time though I added 2.5 ml for about 4 days, making this double the dose of what I did last time around. I dosed on Wed,thur,fri and sat. I just cleaned out the tank and will follow with double the dose this time using 5ml this time.

So that you know, I use a solution made out of 500 gms of KNO3 and 1.5 liters of water. The fertilator tells me to add about 15ml of the solution to reach a 20ppm level.

And according to your suggestions I will take it to about 20ppm and see if I get GSA before that level. Then I will start with the PO4 protocol.

I hope it works this time and will keep you posted on the results.

Thanks,
sam


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Sam, my suggestion was related to by passing the kno3 protocol. If you are going to do it, do it in the way it is explained at the MCI. Regards


----------



## sam22sam

Hi Christian,

After the first two days of dosing about 5ml of kno3 I got GSA. I wanted to check if there has to be a GSA bloom or if you just have to look out for traces of GSA? After 2 days of dosing I got GSA but traces of it and on the third day I got GDA bloom all over the tank. Do I continue to fertilize or hold back and do the PO4 regimen? Please advise.

Thanks,
Sam


----------



## Yo-han

sam22sam said:


> Hi Christian,
> 
> After the first two days of dosing about 5ml of kno3 I got GSA. I wanted to check if there has to be a GSA bloom or if you just have to look out for traces of GSA? After 2 days of dosing I got GSA but traces of it and on the third day I got GDA bloom all over the tank. Do I continue to fertilize or hold back and do the PO4 regimen? Please advise.
> 
> Thanks,
> Sam


Hi Sam,

I suggest you read and re-read the thread (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/69737-method-controlled-imbalances-summary.html) because it will answer most of your questions.

You should do a 50% waterchange when GSA starts, so you are already too far. Use the NO3 dose you added when GSA started, do a 50% waterchange and start the PO4 protocol

Regards


----------



## sam22sam

Hi,

So that is what I am confused, I read it more than a few times. 

1. First day 50% water change.
2. Stop fertilizing at all.
3. Add daily 1 gram od Kno3 every 50 gallons until you reach GSA.
4. As soon as you reach it or on the seventh day, 50% water change.
5. If GSA didn’t bloom the first week, after the water change ad double the amount of Kno3 during this week.


It says stop when you reach GSA. Am I supposed to look for a bloom as it says bloom later or just traces of GSA? If it i just as soon as I reach GSA then I know the dose and will start with the PO4 protocol.

And from what you say yo-han it is only traces - I just have a cluster. I guess it is time to start PO4 or as earlier suggested by Christian start with 20 ppm and do the po4. 

Thanks,
Sam


----------



## Yo-han

sam22sam said:


> Hi,
> 
> So that is what I am confused, I read it more than a few times.
> 
> 1. First day 50% water change.
> 2. Stop fertilizing at all.
> 3. Add daily 1 gram od Kno3 every 50 gallons until you reach GSA.
> 4. As soon as you reach it or on the seventh day, 50% water change.
> 5. If GSA didn't bloom the first week, after the water change ad double the amount of Kno3 during this week.
> 
> It says stop when you reach GSA. Am I supposed to look for a bloom as it says bloom later or just traces of GSA? If it i just as soon as I reach GSA then I know the dose and will start with the PO4 protocol.
> 
> And from what you say yo-han it is only traces - I just have a cluster. I guess it is time to start PO4 or as earlier suggested by Christian start with 20 ppm and do the po4.
> 
> Thanks,
> Sam


As soon as you reach GSA, because this is the point you want to have, if you go futher then you will always have GSA and you don't want that I guess. Because you are searching for the point where GSA starts (imbalance starts) and want to keep just below. So I suggest starting PO4...

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> As soon as you reach GSA, because this is the point you want to have, if you go futher then you will always have GSA and you don't want that I guess. Because you are searching for the point where GSA starts (imbalance starts) and want to keep just below. So I suggest starting PO4...
> 
> Regards


Touché!


----------



## slobodan

I just want to confirm that this method works and want to give big THANK YOU Christian. I learned a lot from your approach and created a document out of your posts.


----------



## Aquaticz

Love to see it, Care to post it?


----------



## Newt

What do you do if you have both GDA and GSA. I have GDA on the glass and GSA on my plants and some on the glass. The GSA came on strong when bumping my PO4 levels up.


----------



## Yo-han

Newt said:


> What do you do if you have both GDA and GSA. I have GDA on the glass and GSA on my plants and some on the glass. The GSA came on strong when bumping my PO4 levels up.


That means you're NO3O4 ratio is high (GSA), so you need to lower your nitrate (waterchange) or if it's lower then 5 ppm, raise you PO4. And your Ca:Mg ratio is high (GDA) so you need to lower Ca by a waterchange with water with a low GH or RO-water. Or add Mg, for example MgSO4.7H2O

The solution depends on your waterparameters. So check GH; is it high (say above 7) then do a waterchange, make sure the water you're using has a lower GH. Otherwise ad Mg.

Regarding GSA, same story; check PO4 and NO3 and depending on there values, waterchange or add PO4!

Regards


----------



## Newt

I know its GDA on the glass and not sure if its GSA or GDA on the plants. It happened when bumping up my PO4. It was around 5ppm and nitrates were around 30ppm. I was away for awhile and since being back have the NO3 at 20ppm and PO4 at 1ppm. GH had crept up to 7'. I normally keep it around 5 to 6. I will add a bit of MgSO4 tomorrow with my water change and dose a bit less KNO3.

My water here is VERY soft so I always add a GH powder mixed for me: 3 parts CaSO4 + 1 part MgSO4 + 1/40th part MnSO4. Do you need MnSO4?


----------



## Yo-han

Newt said:


> I know its GDA on the glass and not sure if its GSA or GDA on the plants. It happened when bumping up my PO4. It was around 5ppm and nitrates were around 30ppm. I was away for awhile and since being back have the NO3 at 20ppm and PO4 at 1ppm. GH had crept up to 7'. I normally keep it around 5 to 6. I will add a bit of MgSO4 tomorrow with my water change and dose a bit less KNO3.
> 
> My water here is VERY soft so I always add a GH powder mixed for me: 3 parts CaSO4 + 1 part MgSO4 + 1/40th part MnSO4. Do you need MnSO4?


Regarding GDA I would slightly change the powder mix. Apparantly your plants are using more Mg then Ca. The mix is good at the moment you put it in your tank but during the week I guess the ratio changes.

About MnSO4, I never used it, so no experiences. Manganese is in my tracemix (I use a stuff called ProFito).

I keep my NO3 in a range of 2,5 - 5 ppm and PO4 at 0.1 ppm (I daily dose 1,5 ppm NO3 and 4 ppm PO4) and only have GSA when NO3 raises to 10 ppm. This works for me so you can try to lower NO3 to about 10 ppm. Or if you like plants to have a little extra, raise PO4, but using this last method you are not really using MCI, so I suggest you take a look at the articles of Tom Barr

Regards


----------



## Newt

Actually I had done the KNO3 protocol and got rid of GDA. It was when doing the PO4 protocol is when it all went to hell.
Tom Barr Inc EI has never worked in any of my tanks. I have always done my own version of PPS with very good but not perfect results.


----------



## darkoon

Yo-han said:


> I keep my NO3 in a range of 2,5 - 5 ppm and PO4 at 0.1 ppm (I daily dose 1,5 ppm NO3 and 4 ppm PO4) and only have GSA when NO3 raises to 10 ppm. This works for me so you can try to lower NO3 to about 10 ppm. Or if you like plants to have a little extra, raise PO4, but using this last method you are not really using MCI, so I suggest you take a look at the articles of Tom Barr
> 
> Regards


you PO4 uptake must be really high, daily dose of 4ppm and you can only maintain it at 0.1ppm?


----------



## slobodan

Love discussion going on here since I'm having same problem. I've go ridd of most GDA but then brown alge showed up and some either GDA or GSA is on the leaves of my plants..
Also, I have wild angels in my 120gal and I'm trying to keep TDS around 80. Since I started NO3 protocol this think went right over 220.. It must be because of NO3, correct? 
I find if I dose Seachem Nitrogen that it doesn't add any or if very little to TDS.
Is it normal for TDS to go up with NO3 protocol?

Thanks,

Slobodan


----------



## grshs_vny

Hi ,I had bba appearance for the first time in my tank ,i read that because of Ca:Mg imbalance and high Fe causes this one and MCI really worked for me.Guys from the beginning of my tank i am having Ca:Mg problem, i have a very soft water supply and its gh is around 3 so i have to adjust every time i change water.Am really frustrated seeing my plants leaves curling .When add ca ,mg deficiency shows up and vice versa ,i tried 4:1(Ca:Mg) but it is not working and here i read that exact opposite works for aquatic plant but i really dont know. anyone here ever tried this ratio? OR the whole idea of ratio is senseless?because few guys say as long as you have required amount of nutrient no ratio matters.if that s true then there should not be a problem with me cos i dose 10ppm ofMg,40ppm of Ca,20ppm of K, 1ppm of P.Please guy help me am really looking for advise.:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:


----------



## Newt

slobodan said:


> Is it normal for TDS to go up with NO3 protocol?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Slobodan


I would think so. You are adding salts. I use a conductivity meter that reads in microhmos. It is affected by alkaline buffer, GH powder and I assume ferts.


----------



## Newt

Still not sure what algae I have. It has slowed down mostly on the plants but not the glass. I scrape the glass about every 2 days. The stuff on my crypts is slimy, very green, doesnt rub off, doesnt smell and is in the flow from a powerhead. When I scrape the glass it looks rather odd; somewhat jelly like - then dissipates. Dont really think its BGA as my nitrates are about 20 - 25ppm.

Here is a link to a thread I started: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/75366-help-me-id-algae-please.html


----------



## Yo-han

darkoon said:


> you PO4 uptake must be really high, daily dose of 4ppm and you can only maintain it at 0.1ppm?


I think I even need to increase it because my plants grew significant last period and last few times I was measuring 0,03, so there was not really much left.

So to answer a question in an old post about plants using lots of NO3 or PO4. Rotala's definitely use a lot of PO4, because half of my plants are Rotala sp. Green and Rotala indica/rotundifolia.


----------



## Yo-han

Newt said:


> Still not sure what algae I have. It has slowed down mostly on the plants but not the glass. I scrape the glass about every 2 days. The stuff on my crypts is slimy, very green, doesnt rub off, doesnt smell and is in the flow from a powerhead. When I scrape the glass it looks rather odd; somewhat jelly like - then dissipates. Dont really think its BGA as my nitrates are about 20 - 25ppm.
> 
> Here is a link to a thread I started: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/75366-help-me-id-algae-please.html


Don't really think it is BGA either (as replied in the other thread), because you would see a major drop of NO3 because BGA binds N. If it is in the flow from you powerhead, I can only think of a form of GDA. I had this a while ago and read this thread. Christian suggests a ratio of 1:4 instead of 4:1 regarding Ca:Mg. For me this is not possible because my tapwater has 64ppm Ca and 4.5ppm Mg, so this means I need to turn up Mg till (probably) toxic levels. I lower Ca with RO-water to about 30ppm and raise Mg to >10 ppm. I had no GDA since then. So as suggested before. Try shifting this ratio more to Mg and if you assume it is BGA, go for the blackout above antibiotics!!

Regards


----------



## Newt

Thanks for your replies Yo_han. I think BGA can also be caused by high PO4, high organic content and wrong spectrum of light. I had been overdriving a pair of Philips Aquarelles and just changed them out and wired it normal output. The bulbs were installed April 1st this year but had shifted in their color.

I was away for a bit and had a large SAE die. Never found the body, just some bones.

I have very soft water and the Ca:Mg levels are 18mg/L to 4mg/L
I can easily dose individually.
Do you know if Manganese (MnSO4) is really needed?

More responses in my other thread in the Algae Forum.


----------



## Yo-han

Newt said:


> Thanks for your replies Yo_han. I think BGA can also be caused by high PO4, high organic content and wrong spectrum of light. I had been overdriving a pair of Philips Aquarelles and just changed them out and wired it normal output. The bulbs were installed April 1st this year but had shifted in their color.
> 
> I was away for a bit and had a large SAE die. Never found the body, just some bones.
> 
> I have very soft water and the Ca:Mg levels are 18mg/L to 4mg/L
> I can easily dose individually.
> Do you know if Manganese (MnSO4) is really needed?
> 
> More responses in my other thread in the Algae Forum.


IMO BGA doesn't really get caused by high PO4, but by high PO4 compared to NO3. But I said nothing about the cause, I just said that if it was BGA (despite the cause) you would see a major drop of NO3 level, because BGA is a nitrogenbinding bacteria. So with NO3 still at 20 ppm I think you should think of another algae.

As told before, my experiences with manganese are limited because it is in my tracemix, so maybe someone else can answer that question for you.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Newt said:


> I know its GDA on the glass and not sure if its GSA or GDA on the plants. It happened when bumping up my PO4. It was around 5ppm and nitrates were around 30ppm. I was away for awhile and since being back have the NO3 at 20ppm and PO4 at 1ppm. GH had crept up to 7'. I normally keep it around 5 to 6. I will add a bit of MgSO4 tomorrow with my water change and dose a bit less KNO3.
> 
> My water here is VERY soft so I always add a GH powder mixed for me: 3 parts CaSO4 + 1 part MgSO4 + 1/40th part MnSO4. Do you need MnSO4?


Sorry about the delay, I was too busy.

Well, I think you should do the Po4 protocol to find out the balance. Seems you are adding too much Po4 suddenly. You mentioned 1 ppm, is it what you add or what is remaining in water?

On the other hand, probably Ca is an issue in your tank, no matter you have soft water it is a matter of imbalances. So, I suggest you add Mg.

Regarding the Kno3 protocol and GSA, it only matter when they start booming againg. The GSA you already have doesn´t count.

Regards


----------



## Newt

My PO4 was up around 5ppm in the tank when it exploded with this algae. I lowered it to ~1ppm in the tank which is where I usually have it. I also added Mg and it all seems to be helping greatly. Back under control.

My tap water only has 18ppm Ca nd 4ppm Mg. I add a 3:1 Ca:Mg GH booster with a tad amount of Mn. I have decided to dose Ca and Mg individually.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Newt said:


> Actually I had done the KNO3 protocol and got rid of GDA. It was when doing the PO4 protocol is when it all went to hell.
> Tom Barr Inc EI has never worked in any of my tanks. I have always done my own version of PPS with very good but not perfect results.


Well, you make a mistake somewhere. Please, tell us exactly how did you do the Po4 protocol.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

slobodan said:


> Love discussion going on here since I'm having same problem. I've go ridd of most GDA but then brown alge showed up and some either GDA or GSA is on the leaves of my plants..
> Also, I have wild angels in my 120gal and I'm trying to keep TDS around 80. Since I started NO3 protocol this think went right over 220.. It must be because of NO3, correct?
> I find if I dose Seachem Nitrogen that it doesn't add any or if very little to TDS.
> Is it normal for TDS to go up with NO3 protocol?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Slobodan


Only if your plants are not uptaking properly your Kno3 I guess.

Seachem Nitrogen is not only Kno3, the kno3 protocol doesn´t work with it.

Regards


----------



## Christian_rubilar

grshs_vny said:


> Hi ,I had bba appearance for the first time in my tank ,i read that because of Ca:Mg imbalance and high Fe causes this one and MCI really worked for me.Guys from the beginning of my tank i am having Ca:Mg problem, i have a very soft water supply and its gh is around 3 so i have to adjust every time i change water.Am really frustrated seeing my plants leaves curling .When add ca ,mg deficiency shows up and vice versa ,i tried 4:1(Ca:Mg) but it is not working and here i read that exact opposite works for aquatic plant but i really dont know. anyone here ever tried this ratio? OR the whole idea of ratio is senseless?because few guys say as long as you have required amount of nutrient no ratio matters.if that s true then there should not be a problem with me cos i dose 10ppm ofMg,40ppm of Ca,20ppm of K, 1ppm of P.Please gupy help me am really looking for advise.:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:


The ideas about ratios are useless. Different plants means different uptakes and different ratios.

However, I was having issues with the 4:1 ratio until I said "I am not so stupid, why the hell this is not working" and I tried the opposite ratio and it worked much better. I suggest the 1:4 ratio just to break the dogma.

But the idea at the MCI is that you should find your own ratio using the protocols.

If you know which is your tap water ratio, it helps.

Regards


----------



## HeyPK

If you have been visited with black beard algae, you have sinned! You got out of balance with nature! You are bad! You should wear a sackcloth and smear your face with ashes, and you should not associate with the righteous! 

Let me suggest another interpretation. You got black beard algae because it got into your tank in some water you dumped in with a new fish or it came attached to a plant you recently acquired. It is not particularly sensitive to ratios of nutrients, and it will not conveniently vanish if you hit on some sort of 'correct' ratio. However, you may be able to keep it from dominating the tank if you have a heavy plant load and the plants are healthy.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

HeyPK said:


> If you have been visited with black beard algae, you have sinned! You got out of balance with nature! You are bad! You should wear a sackcloth and smear your face with ashes, and you should not associate with the righteous!


¿?


----------



## Christian_rubilar

HeyPK said:


> Let me suggest another interpretation. You got black beard algae because it got into your tank in some water you dumped in with a new fish or it came attached to a plant you recently acquired. It is not particularly sensitive to ratios of nutrients, and it will not conveniently vanish if you hit on some sort of 'correct' ratio. However, you may be able to keep it from dominating the tank if you have a heavy plant load and the plants are healthy.


Spore are always there. Without proper condition they don´t bloom.
My interpretation regarding BBA is:

Lack of Co2 and an imbalance related to Ca . Sometimes a high KH is the cause regarding Co2.

1. Use the Kno3 generic protocol plus: 
2. Double check kh, eventually, reduce KH using RO water.
3. Double check Co2. Read the chapter about Co2.
4. Adding Mg might be a possible solution to reach a balance with Ca.

Regards


----------



## HeyPK

Spores are not always there. This is a wide-spread misconception. I recall the words of one unhappy aquarist many years ago who despaired of "hellish spores floating in the air". It is not true! I have never had black beard algae over the last 40 years of growing aquarium plants because I have given the bleach treatment to plants before I introduce them into my tanks. I have had every kind of growing condition---high light, low light, high nutrients, low nutrients, high plant load, low plant load. I am sure I have frequently had ideal conditions for growing black beard, but it has never showed up. The bad hair algae, fuzz algae, red algae, Cladophora, Rhizoclonium, Oedogonium, staghorn, etc. always get in tanks in the vegetative state. They do not produce resistant spores. I have seen illustrations of their life cycles in botany books. All except the Rhodophyta (red algae, including black beard) produce flagellated, swimming zoospores that are short-lived and not resistant. The Rhodophyta produce non-flagellated spores that also are short-lived and not resistant and these depend on water currents to disperse them.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

HeyPK said:


> Spores are not always there. This is a wide-spread misconception. I recall the words of one unhappy aquarist many years ago who despaired of "hellish spores floating in the air". It is not true! I have never had black beard algae over the last 40 years of growing aquarium plants because I have given the bleach treatment to plants before I introduce them into my tanks. I have had every kind of growing condition---high light, low light, high nutrients, low nutrients, high plant load, low plant load. I am sure I have frequently had ideal conditions for growing black beard, but it has never showed up. The bad hair algae, fuzz algae, red algae, Cladophora, Rhizoclonium, Oedogonium, staghorn, etc. always get in tanks in the vegetative state. They do not produce resistant spores. I have seen illustrations of their life cycles in botany books. All except the Rhodophyta (red algae, including black beard) produce flagellated, swimming zoospores that are short-lived and not resistant. The Rhodophyta produce non-flagellated spores that also are short-lived and not resistant and these depend on water currents to disperse them.


What difference does it make? I don´t care if there are spores or not. I don´t care what kind of spore do they have. Is it relevant info? With all my respect, I think not. If you understand how the imbalances works this info becomes useless.

Theory must have consequences, otherwise it becomes a dogma or a chant.

I know that certain algae blooms under certain conditions, I call them imbalances. You correct an imbalance and they stop bloom. You control the imbalances and they never bloom (controlled imbalances Method).

But I am not a priest and the MCI is not the bible. If to disinfect with bleach works for you , good for you but this debate is about the MCI.

Regards


----------



## Newt

Christian,
Below is a picture of the algae I am dealing with.
Thanks for your help.


----------



## HeyPK

Christian_rubilar said:


> What difference does it make? I don´t care if there are spores or not. I don´t care what kind of spore do they have. Is it relevant info? With all my respect, I think not. If you understand how the imbalances works this info becomes useless.
> 
> Theory must have consequences, otherwise it becomes a dogma or a chant.
> -------Snip----------


If you realize that the problem filamentous algae do not produce spores that inevitably get into your tanks, then you will see the value of treating new plants to kill attached algae and the value of taking precautions when introducing new fish to prevent algae fragments coming in with them. If you do these things you will have tanks free of problem filamentous algae for years. It works for me.


----------



## bcorchidguy

After reading through the very long thread I fear I missed it but what do you use for PO4?

Douglas


----------



## Aquaticz

P= the P in NPK
P= KH2P04
P= a macro nutrient

I'd suggest you read up on the estimative index coined by Tom Barr.
There is a ton of info regarding fertilizers and water parameters in a fresh water planted tank.
have fun


----------



## Christian_rubilar

bcorchidguy said:


> After reading through the very long thread I fear I missed it but what do you use for PO4?
> 
> Douglas


For adding Po4 I suggest to use KH2P04.

Using the MCI the idea is to do not use Po4 unless you really need it.

In my experience Po4 is produced naturally in the tank and usually there is too much. 
If you need or not Po4 depends on the plants you have, I introduced the idea of plant with priority consumption, wich means that some plants have special needs (Glosso mg and No3; Microsorums Po4 and K, marsilea crenata Po4, etc). This is very obvios in terrestrian plants but somehow all the other methods pretend that all of them consumes NPK in the same way.
The EI suggested by aquaticz seems to barely realize this issue, and the primitive solution suggested is to to add "too much" of everything, which is a confess that the author has no idea what do every plant really need.

I developed the MCI trying to be a little more sophisticated, so the idea is to find out the real uptake of your plants. EI believers think wrongly that I suggest to restrict Po4 but this is a missunderstanding. If you have read the whole thread you probably read a case where somebody who was ussing the EI realized that his plants need double the amount of Po4 he was adding with the EI. Using the MCI´s Po4 protocol he found out that he needed 4 ppm of Po4. So, the idea is to customize your fertilizing to:
1) Your water;
2) The plants combination you have;
3) Your fish;
4) Your light.

This is the fertilizing approach, the MCI is also an algae control method. Fertilizing and algae control are 2 faces of the same coin. Algae is the feedback of your mistakes or bad theory. An example of bad theory is the explanation about GDA given by the author of the EI, it is useless and bad theory should be abandoned.

Well, I am on vacation right now, last day with internet, I ´ll be back on February. Regards


----------



## bcorchidguy

Thanks for the replies Christian and Aquaticz. There is so much information and a lot of acronyms sometimes it's hard to know if you're understanding it all or not.

So basically work with N and K the P should occur naturally through fish food etc?

On the west coast of Canada in Vancouver our water is rain water. A friend who breeds discus says her water was checked by a well regarded discus breeder who told her our water is to soft to sustain life, even for discus it needs to be harder. We have no buffering capacity so our pH may be 7 one day and 5 the next. 

We can't buy KNO3 off the shelf anymore so my stuff is on order and will arrive soon I hope. 

Thanks again, I'll read through it all again at least once.

Douglas


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## Pat Bowerman

Okay, it's been a while.......Updates? Successes? Failures? I'd like to hear from folks that have given this a try.

Also, for Christian: Thanks for posting this. It's an interesting read. I'd like to know how you arrived at some of your ideas about certain plants. For instance, when you state that Marsilea Crenata is a heavy PO4 consumer and Glosso is a heavy nitrate consumer, is there data to back that up, or is that just your observation? I don't mean to be being critical or argumentative. I'm just curious as to how you arrived at those conclusions? Do you have a table somewhere that outlines the preferences for different species of plants? That would be very helpful if you did.


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## Laure

Hi Pat

As a general guideline, plants from Asia are higher consumers of PO4 than plants from South America.

Regards
Laure


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## Christian_rubilar

Pat Bowerman said:


> Also, for Christian: Thanks for posting this. It's an interesting read. I'd like to know how you arrived at some of your ideas about certain plants. For instance, when you state that Marsilea Crenata is a heavy PO4 consumer and Glosso is a heavy nitrate consumer, is there data to back that up, or is that just your observation? I don't mean to be being critical or argumentative. I'm just curious as to how you arrived at those conclusions? Do you have a table somewhere that outlines the preferences for different species of plants? That would be very helpful if you did.


It is a good question.

When I was studying law I paid my expenditures cultivating aquarium plants. I did it underwater and from that experience I developed the MCI. Regarding the glosso and marsilea, I used to have monocultures of them. I discovered that the tank with glosso had a tendency to ciano while the tank with marsilea had a tendency to GSA. So I started adding more Kno3 for glosso and more Po4 for marsilea until the algae issues were solved. The tank with marsilea crenata used to uptake 5 up to 6 ppm of Po4 per week.

That´s how the idea about priority consumptions was born. This is nothing new for agronomist engineers. Just google tomatoes and oranges fertilizing and you will see that they have different protocols.

Regarding Glosso, when you add enough Kno3, light and Co2 you can see it growing in real time.

I know that Amano asserts that the key for glosso is iron. I disagree. Regards


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## Christian_rubilar

bcorchidguy said:


> So basically work with N and K the P should occur naturally through fish food etc?


Depends. Algae will give you the feedback. Sometimes you don´t need to add Po4, specially if you have discus. Other times you have to add over 5 ppm. The idea is that there are not general rules or estimated index.



bcorchidguy said:


> On the west coast of Canada in Vancouver our water is rain water. A friend who breeds discus says her water was checked by a well regarded discus breeder who told her our water is to soft to sustain life, even for discus it needs to be harder. We have no buffering capacity so our pH may be 7 one day and 5 the next.


You can add carbonates for sure, just blend them properly.

Regards


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## nfrank

Christian_rubilar said:


> It is a good question.
> 
> ....That´s how the idea about priority consumptions was born...... .


Christian,
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thred and was waiting for you to return from holiday before i offered comment. I totally agree that all plants do not have the same nutrient needs, and providing everything in excess in not necessarily the best strategy for some plants or certain plant communities. There is more to growing plants than growth rate! In my observations, the ratio of nutrients are equally important in that they seem to affect the morphology (size, shape, color, venation, etc) and are thus very important. The quantity and ratio are also key to the survival of some plants in community setting, when some species are more effective at sequestering the available nutrients. Of course, the amount of nutrients in the substate and water column are both important and it is not always easy to tell what exists or has accumulated in the bottom.
Only recently, after decades of only moderate success, have i realized that sufficient phosphates are critical to successful culture of Cryptocoryne (and Ca/Mg for some species). I noticed that you mentioned this earlier. When i lived in NYC, my crypts grew like weeds in plain quartz gravel and just learned that NYC tap water from upstate resevoiurs is very high in P (2-3ppm). Maybe that is why NYC also make the best bagels and pizza dough. While my local tap water in Raleigh, NC is good, it is not good enough. It is not always what you add, but what is already there  
I would love to see documentation or empirical evidence for specific aquatic plant preferences. Collectively we can develop a list. It sounds like you may already have one.


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## Christian_rubilar

Well, the main issue regarding to add everything in excess is that you might be adding some nutrients in excess while you have a lack of other ones. So, in my understanding the whole idea about adding everything in excess is just the confession that you have no idea how to add them. 

The question regarding a list of priority consumptions was done several times. I used to cultivate about 200 aquarium plants and just a few have special needs. Some of them are:

Micrororums: K, Ca and Po4.
Moss: K as chloride.
Glosso: Kno3 and Mg
Marsilea: Po4
Cryptos: Po4
H. Polysperma: K
Rotala M.: Ca

I probably forget many right now.

The idea is that those plants consumes too much of those nutrients so they might imbalance the chemistry of your tank. So, if you know it, then you can add exactly what you need instead of adding just in case. Both situations, to add in excess and a lack related to a priority consumption produces a friendly environment for algae.

There are not empirical works you can read because this idea belongs to me. I started doing it while I still have the company regarding aquarium plants but I had to close it in a rush because there was an electric emergency and they started to fine for excess in electric consumption. So the empirical work about the MCI was interrupted.

Right now I litigate citizenship for illegals and I barely have 1 tank and zero time for playing with it.

Regards


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## dutchy

Hola Christian.

Una pregunta:

I'm doing EI, no algae except for GDA, tried the "don't touch" method without succes, so that's the issue here.

If I want to start from scratch with the KNO3 protocol, I have to start with a 50% WC. But after the WC, the NO3 level could still be like >10 ppm. It doesn't seem effective to me that way. 

Should I do WC's until I reach (near to) zero NO3 before starting? 

regards,
dutchy.


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## Christian_rubilar

Kno3 is not the issue, an imbalance regarding Po4 and Ca is. So, to speed up the Kno3 protocol you should decrease the level of Po4 and Ca. Were you adding them? Do you have a Po4 test? Because, if you have 2 ppm of Po4, after WC you will have 1 ppm, it is too much. So, try to decreace Po4 down to 0.2 before starting the Kno3 protocol and then in less than 1 week it should be solved. Regards


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## dutchy

Yes, I was adding PO4, but not Ca, because there's a lot in my tap water (32 ppm) I have a PO4 test.

So I will lower PO4 and Ca, partly by using RO water. Then I wait until I get GSA just adding KNO3 and start slowly adding PO4 until the GSA is gone. Right?

thnx.


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## Christian_rubilar

Ok, do you know how much mg does your water have?
GSA is never gone, you have to clean the glasses everyday until it stops appearing. Regards


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## dutchy

The tapwater has 48 ppm of Ca and 8 ppm of Mg.

At the moment when I change water I change 50%. I use half tap water and half RO, to keep the KH at 4. That means I bring 12 ppm of Ca and 2 ppm of Mg in the water, but of course there's also an unknown amount of Mg in the traces I dose.

So I can drop Ca. to any level by using more RO.

regards.


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## Christian_rubilar

You should rise mg too. I mentioned very low amounts in the MCI but a member of this forums sent me info that assert that you can add up to 15 ppm of Mg. So I suggest you do the Mg and Kno3 protocol together. Regards


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## dutchy

Will do. I start as soon as I have PO4 low enough. Will post the result. Thank you very much so far.

regards.


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## dutchy

PO4 went down to 0,7 now. No GSA so far. GDA still present. Will let it drop more to start protocol when GSA appears.

Increased Mg level by 5 ppm. No addition of Ca and switching to full RO upcoming weekend to start Mg protocol.

assuming 15 ppm of Mg. can be maintained I can add 7 ppm per week, with 50% waterchanges I can never get more than 14 ppm, even if there's no uptake.

That means that with Ca:Mg of 1:4 only 3 to 4 ppm of Ca can be maintained. Is that enough?

regards.


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## Christian_rubilar

dutchy said:


> PO4 went down to 0,7 now. No GSA so far. GDA still present.


This is obvious.  You are still too influenced by the EI bubble. 0.7 of Po4 is a lot. Start the Kno3 protocol when it will be about 0.2.



dutchy said:


> Will let it drop more to start PO4 protocol when GSA appears.


GSA will appears when Po4 reach zero only if you respect the prerequisites of light, Co2, etc. Then you change the water, clean the glasses and start fertilizing only with kno3. You do the Po4 protocol only if GSA appears.



dutchy said:


> Increased Mg level by 5 ppm. No addition of Ca and switching to full RO upcoming weekend to start Mg protocol.


Bad idea. Keep using 50% tap water, otherwise you will create another imbalance. If you deal with too many factors at the same time, then you don´t know which change was determinant. Regarding the Mg, do the Mg protocol, don´t add 5 ppm just like that. If you feel like adding 5 ppm, then do it in 6 dozes, as a protocol and clean the glasses every day. You don´t need to look for the algae for excess of Mg, if you control GDA, that´s fair enough.



dutchy said:


> assuming 15 ppm of Mg. can be maintained I can add 7 ppm per week, with 50% water changes I can never get more than 14 ppm, even if there's no uptake.


This comment about 15 ppm of Mg was just a compass to know where the limit is. Use the protocols to find out the accurate need of your plants (I use about 3 ppm). It is all about efficiency. As I mentioned, abandon the EI bubble for using the MCI. The EI is based in too many dogmatic asserts. You know, like at church they say that the world was created in 7 days, this is a dogmatic assert, based on faith instead of facts. 
The EI bubble has too many dogmas behind the appearance of scientific knowledge. Barr´s explanation about GDA and the solution he propose is a good example. It simple doesn´t work out.

I am a follower of the critical rationalism. Instead of trying to confirm my ideas, I propose them to debate because "no number of positive outcomes at the level of experimental testing can confirm a scientific theory, but a single counterexample is logically decisive: it shows the theory, from which the implication is derived, to be false. The term "falsifiable" does not mean something is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment. Karl Popper's account of the logical asymmetry between verification and falsifiability lies at the heart of his philosophy of science. It also inspired him to take falsifiability as his criterion of demarcation between what is and is not genuinely scientific: a theory should be considered scientific if and only if it is falsifiable"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper#Philosophy_of_science



dutchy said:


> That means that with Ca:Mg of 1:4 only 3 to 4 ppm of Ca can be maintained. Is that enough?


I don´t believe about the idea of ratios. I mentioned the 1:4 ratio just because I am doing a statement asserting that the opposite ratio seems to work better. I am attacking a dogma here. But this is just like a compass. The idea is to use the protocols because the plants combination will determinate different ratios of balances. You have not plastic plants and that´s why the whole idea about ratios is wrong. It is all about the residual after plants uptake. Is that clear?

Your plants and algae will let you know if this is enough or not.

Regards

pd: In my opinion, it is a bad idea to debate about MCI at Barr´s forum. You should use Barr´s forum for asking about the EI.


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## dutchy

Thnx for the detailed explanation, I'm not doing this to discuss the method in some way or if it works or not and make you waste your time. I'm going to do as suggested by you or the method. Simple as that. If the method works, it will prove itself. 

No one has been able to give me a working solution in getting rid of GDA so far, so I want to give it a try, and I hope it solves the problem.

Not to see which method is right. Open visor here.

Will keep posting as I proceed. 

regards


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## Christian_rubilar

It´s ok, don´t worry. If I was too taught, I apologize, I replied to you in a break meanwhile I was writing an appeal to avoid a deportation.

I don´t believe that there is something like valid or invalid methods. 

I think that every method have strong and weak points (asserts). I just believe that when one of the asserts is refuted, it should be abandoned. 

Regarding your case, just forget all that you know, otherwise some dogmas might play against the find of a solution for your issue. 

Regards


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## dutchy

PO4 level dropped to 0,5 ppm now. Tomorrow a major water change, this will put me at 0,25. Will also clean the windows.

I'm getting some GSA three days after the last cleaning (2 wpg) GDA still developing for now, but this can be expected, as PO4 is still not low enough.

Will post again later this week.


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## dutchy

Yesterday I did a major waterchange of 50%, half RO, half tap. PO4=0,2. Today I see some GSA develop, but also a touch of GDA.

With the tap water I automatically add 12 ppm of Ca and 2 ppm of Mg, and I get some extra Ca. from the rocks. GH=6 and KH=4,5 today.

I want to use resin to lower GH to 3, mainly for my Eriocaulon sp.

I cleaned the windows again and started to add PO4 again, following MCI at 1 gram/500G per day.

regards.


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## dutchy

Two days later....no GSA....so I stopped adding PO4, this should be the weekly dose of PO4. 0,2 to start with, added 2 times 1 gram/500G, a total amount of 0,9 ppm. This should be ok now.

But.....GDA is still there.

Now I'm adding Mg every day to change the Ca/Mg ratio.


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## dutchy

GH is 2 to 3 now, and adding 0,5 ppm Mg daily.

Still GDA....

Not so easy as suggested after all...


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## Christian_rubilar

dutchy said:


> I cleaned the windows again and started to add PO4 again, following MCI at 1 gram/500G per day.
> 
> regards.


You should not add Po4, this is a mistake.
Once you find the Kno3 protocol you change the water and start the kno3 dozing. If during the week you find some GSA, then you clean it and you add a doze of Po4. If the next day there are new GSA, then you clean it and you add Po4 again, and so on.


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## Christian_rubilar

dutchy said:


> Two days later....no GSA....so I stopped adding PO4, this should be the weekly dose of PO4. 0,2 to start with, added 2 times 1 gram/500G, a total amount of 0,9 ppm. This should be ok now.
> 
> But.....GDA is still there.
> 
> Now I'm adding Mg every day to change the Ca/Mg ratio.


Of course GDA will be there if you added 0.9 ppm of Po4.
You should add it.
And GDA doesn´t dissapear by itself, you have to clean it everyday, continue doing the protocol until it doesn´t appear anymore. Then you know how to fertilize, because if you change your regime, then it will be there again.


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## Christian_rubilar

dutchy said:


> GH is 2 to 3 now, and adding 0,5 ppm Mg daily.
> 
> Still GDA....
> 
> Not so easy as suggested after all...


You mentioned before you have rocks with Ca. You have to remove them.
How is your Ca:Mg ratio? it should be close to 1:1. If you are adding 3.5 ppm per week, it is probably low.
Regards


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## dutchy

I'm now using a water softener resin in the filter. GH went down from 7 to 3 because of that, so not much Ca left. Most rocks are already gone, just a few left. this is just since saturday, so let's see what happens. 

Still adding 0,5 ppm Mg per day. 

PO4 dosing 0,9 ppm per week, no GSA.


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## Christian_rubilar

dutchy said:


> I'm now using a water softener resin in the filter. GH went down from 7 to 3 because of that, so not much Ca left. Most rocks are already gone, just a few left. this is just since saturday, so let's see what happens.
> 
> Still adding 0,5 ppm Mg per day.
> 
> PO4 dosing 0,9 ppm per week, no GSA.


Don´t use resines.
Don´t add Po4 when you have an algae issue. The DGA is related to an complex imbalance where Po4 and Ca is involved.
So, don´t confuse the fertilizing approach with the algae control one. Use the alga control one now.
Perhaps 0.5 mg is too low.
But now we have a new problem, Sodium, you know, the MCI works under certain conditions, if you modify them, good luck.
Regards


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## dutchy

Christian_rubilar said:


> ....... the MCI works under certain conditions, if you modify them, good luck.
> Regards


Ouch!! Touchy??

I found the right amount of PO4 to add according to the protocol, after dropping to the GSA level (I got it at 0,2 ppm) it took two additions of 0,35 ppm to stop the GSA. According to the protocol this is the amount to add per week.

Then the Ca/Mg issue. MCI doesn't tell that Sodium plays any role in this situation, just PO4, Ca and Mg. Since I use tapwater for the waterchanges, which measures GH 7, (48 ppm of Ca, 6 ppm of Mg) and my tank also measures GH 7, It seemed a good idea to get the Ca out of the water (and it did), and remove most of the rocks. Half of the Ca is gone now, GH dropped 50% in 2 days.

This brings with my extra Mg additions the Ca/Mg ratio much closer to your suggested optimum.

If Sodium does play a role, then the method is not correct. If the method says it's a PO4 and Mg/Ca issue, it should be indepedent of any other substance (Sodium in this case). If not, the hypothesis is falsified and should be abandoned.

Anyway I'm still trying to get rid of a problem, and if I was biased to thinking it wouldn't work, I never would have tried and waste both our time.

regards,
dutchy


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## Christian_rubilar

dutchy said:


> Anyway I'm still trying to get rid of a problem, and if I was biased to thinking it wouldn't work, I never would have tried and waste both our time.


Well, I will be as clear as possible: You need a ro filter.

Or you can continue trying adding up to 15 ppm of Mg per week. I suggest you add a higher doze, otherwise it will be too slow, ad 1.5 ppm of mg per day instead of 0.35.

But before you start any protocol, make a water change to reduce Na and Po4.

And read properly the Kno3 protocol, it says: "stop fertilizing at all".

So, don´t confuse the fertilizing approach and the algae control one. When you control algae you do exactly what the protocol says and you don´t add or change anything else.

The protocol says also, read the water quality chapter, there I mentioned that ro water should be used when you have too much Ca and I say nothing about using resins.

The protocols are very specific and the idea is to follow them without any change or good ideas. Why? Because I know that they work out because they had positive feedback for years.

The method I propose is to play a variable at a time, at most two, then you know what causes what effect generates. When you add Na to water then you might have another new algae related to this new imbalance.

We were having consultations about a new algae, all the issues were from Barcelona where water has Ca, Na and sometimes Po4. The new factor was Na.

So, does Na have any relation to GDA? I have no idea, I didn´t test this idea but feedback says that there is another algae you might have if you add extra Na.

But, you decided to deal with GSA first, I think that you should deal with GDA first.

Regards


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## dutchy

Thnx for the explanation.

GDA is the only algae I have, I just let GSA bloom to find the right amount of PO4.

I have an RO filter. With all the rocks I had the RO couldn't keep up. That's why I used the resin. The rocks are gone now.

Anyway, I took out the resin and changed water from the tap and RO. GH is 4 now. I want to keep it low because of the Eriocaulons in the tank.

I'll go back to square one and try again.


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## arjosh

Dutchy, any update? I went to this process of MCI page to page but I wasn't able to understand the protocol thing. 

Christian, Could you please simplify this with out any technical works what exactly to do in certain protocol? Say Kno3 for GDA. My understanding is just use Kno3 and not to use Po4 together as EI suggests? Once GDA is gone and GSA starts to appear then start po4 Protocol? Is this what it is? How about Micro dosing? should 1 stop as well while doing any protocol?

1 think is making my head spin..you suggested to dutchy that take care of GDA first and once GSA starts to appear then use Po4 protocol to treat that, right? so when will this treating process stops? Asking cause if you stop certain chemical to dose other problem starts...say if 1 stops dosing kno3 then perhaps 1 might like to get BGA or stunt growth etc.


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## Laure

Christian, let me try to explain how I see it. Perhaps this is of benefit to others that don't understand the protocol.

The starting point should be to reduce any chemical and algae inside the tank, so that you have nothing in it besides what you add. Then only can you control the tank. Work with one parameter only. That is the aim.

So on Day Zero, do a 50% water change and clean the glass thoroughly. Clean everything. You may have a GDA problem, but you may also have some BGA and perhaps GSA. The GSA may be there from when there was a different imbalance. It doesn't go away unless you clean it. It merely stops blooming when the conditions change. But it is still there. So don't let its presence confuse you. Likely you may have some Cladophora also. So perhaps in this example you start off with many different types of algae in the tank and you are confused as to what to do. Don't be. Clean everything. Reset the water in the tank. Put in a lot of effort to try and manually clean everything you can. Wipe the glass so that it is crystal clear.

I would suggest you do more than 50% water change. Why? Because perhaps you have 4ppm of PO4 in the water and a 50% water change will reduce that to 2ppm. That is still too much. But in tanks with sensitive fish like whiptail plecos you can't do a 90% water change. The fish won't like it and perhaps will die. Also, Crypts don't like such large water changes. Amano suggest smaller water changes and to use water from another stabilized tank for tank with lots of Crypts in. However, this is not always practical in our homes. Try to do a 50% water change with dechlorinated water while you clean the tank very well, then 4 hours later another 50% water change, and perhaps 4 hours later another 50% water change. This way you can reduce anything in the water to basically nothing over one day, without compromising your fish or plants.

So now you have a tank with virtually nothing in the water and you have manually cleaned as much algae as possible. Start with the KNO3 protocol. The idea is that you add KNO3 until you see GSA. Stop dosing micros, or GH booster or anything like that. This protocol should take 1 week. Plants will be fine without micros for 1 week. Many of them get micros from the substrate if you use soil or ADA products. But even without those substrates, they have reserves built up and they will be fine for the week. I don't know of any plant that will die within a week of no micro dosing.

Make sure the light is right, and the CO2 is at 30ppm. Make sure the flow in the tank is good in every corner.

On the day you see GDA, you stop dosing KNO3. Add up all the KNO3 you dosed up to that point. That is the total of KNO3 you should dose weekly. You can divide this amount into 3 or 6 or 7 equal parts. Depends on how you want to dose; 3 times a week or daily or whatever suits you. Now clean the GDA off the glass and wait until day 7 and do a 50% water change. Remember, no more KNO3 dosing for the rest of this week. No other dosing either.

Repeat this process the following week using your amount of KNO3 you found out in the first week. This is to verify you get the same result. If your calculations were correct, and the tank balance is still the same, you should expect to see GDA on day 7 this time. Once again, no micros, gh booster or PO4 or anything else. The plants will be fine. Trust me.

After this week, you do your 50% water change on day 7, you can now start dosing micros and gh booster. Try to get the mg:ca ratio 4:1, but if you have a lot of Ca in your tap water then perhaps you need to use RO water, other wise you will have far too much Mg in the water. In this easy example it seems that the fish load is enough to provide PO4 and you don't need to dose PO4. Sometimes this is more complex, but you need to understand the impact of feeding the fish and the PO4 and NO3 produced from the fish waste. NH3 and NH4 can also cause problems, and this should be addressed by improving your biological filtration and ensuring you regularly vacuum and trim dying leaves.

This was a very long explanation. I hope this helps.

Christian, correct me if there was anything I said that you don't agree with.


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## cliffclof

> For example, everybody read about the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio. This is a ratio from terrestian studies. Under the water this ratio produces several problems related to algae. The ratio that works better is exactly the opposite 1:4.


Wanted to ask as I believe it is important and most others are referring to the Ca:Mg ratio as stated without driving home that most test kits read Ca and Mg as CaCO3 (Ca-CaCO3, Mg-CaCO3). So in regards to your ratio you are talking about the ratio of cations Ca:Mg correct?

Also, and this is very important, are we referring to the ratio on an atomic level by atom or by mass/weight ratio? It seems pretty obvious we are talking about the cations only and by mass right?


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## cliffclof

Yes I am going to double post, I can't edit the last post to update.

I think the 1:4 Ca:Mg (Calcium:Magnesium) ratio idea is when people measure the total weight of MgSO4 and CaCl or CaSO4. If that is correct the actual Ca:Mg weight ratio is about 1 : 2 AND interestingly the Atomic ratio is 1:4 Ca:Mg Atoms.

I'm just thinking that if I really wanted to hit a ratio of 1:4 Ca:Mg using MgSO4 and CaCl I would have to add a h^ll of a lot of sulfates to get that Mg qty up there. Or have very very soft water.

I would love to hear some educated comments on this.


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## Christian_rubilar

Laure said:


> On the day you see GDA, you stop dosing KNO3.


GSA not GDA


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## Christian_rubilar

Laure said:


> After this week, you do your 50% water change on day 7, you can now start dosing micros and gh booster. Try to get the mg:ca ratio 4:1, but if you have a lot of Ca in your tap water then perhaps you need to use RO water, other wise you will have far too much Mg in the water.


If you have Ca in your tap water, then you don t need GH booster. You can use najas guadalapensis as a bioindicator of Ca lacks.

Regards


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## Christian_rubilar

You are well oriented but,

I just mentioned that the opposite ration seems to work better as a starting point. I just wanted to destroy the myth about the need of high levels of Ca, this is not a universal rule. It is all about the uptake and special needs of different plants. Najas guadalapensis, ammania gracilis, rotala macradra and microsorums needs a lot of Ca, but it doesn´t mean 4:1 Ca:Mg. If you don´t have those plants, then you probably don´t need to add Ca.

On the other hand, Glosso needs a lot of Mg, then the "ratio" is different.

The ratio I suggest can be used as a diagnosis tool to find out when something is really wrong: for example GDA (Algae control approach). If you are adding 4:1 Ca:Mg and 2 ppm of Po4 when you don´t need it, GDA is the obvious consequense.

But for fertilizing the idea is to find out the real needs of your tank, then you have to do the protocols. It is all about uptake and the protocols are tools to know your tank better.

Regards


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## Darkheart

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Christian_rubilar said:


> 1) You don't need a Mg test. If you have a GH one then you just need a Ca test: GH - Ca = Mg


Hallo, Christian!

I am afraid I have Mg/Ca imbalance and I would like to verify if it's true. So I measured GH and Ca to find out Mg/Ca ratio. GH=8 and Ca=50 ppm. GH - Ca = -48ppm Mg


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## Christian_rubilar

*Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...*



Darkheart said:


> Hallo, Christian!
> 
> I am afraid I have Mg/Ca imbalance and I would like to verify if it's true. So I measured GH and Ca to find out Mg/Ca ratio. GH=8 and Ca=50 ppm. GH - Ca = -48ppm Mg


8 gh means 143.84 ppm minus 50 ppm Ca= 93.84 Mg.

Do you have any algae that you can use as a bioindicator?

This is very unusual and there should be a mistake. Do you have this info from the tap water company?

Regards


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## nfrank

Check your test kit to see the units for GH. The kits should also give you a formula for converting GH to ppm.

Typically, GH is reported as german degrees general hardness. Those units are different than ppm. To convert to ppm or mg/L, multiply by 17.8. So, GH of 8 is equivalent to 142 ppm of minerals. The Mg portion is estimated to be 142-50=92. Accordingly, your Mg to Ca ratio is ~ 1.8 : 1.


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Right!


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## Darkheart

Thank you Christian and nfrank!

Today I found out, that my situation is more complicated than I thought. GH reading I gave you was 3 weeks old, but tap water readings gave my tap water company last week. I just did GH and KH tests today again and was shocked - my tap water has GH=11 and KH=9 now! 3 weeks ago there were only GH=8 and KH=5. Since August 2010 these values were pretty stable (I did tests every 1-2 months). And my tank's water is more harder - GH=13 and KH=11. I called my tap water company and they said I live in place where water line system takes water from 2 different sources - first comes from river and is threated by water purification station, but the other comes from underground source and is much harder.
I bought a JBL Ca test kit today and measured calcium level in my tank. It's 140ppm. So Mg must be about 231,4 (13*17.8) - 140 = *91.4* and Ca/Mg ratio should be 1.53:1

I use GDA as bioindicator. As it has bloomed for about 2 months I started to add KNO3 to my paludarium (~80l of water, CO2 3bps, 4x80W JBL Solar4 fixture 55cm above 13cm deep water) 0,3 grams daily + aquarium fertilizer with KNO3 included without knowing MCI (I thought I had BGA, but later found out that it is GDA). After 4-5th day a few spots of GSA started appear, but GDA was not gone completely. One week ago before water change (50% weekly) NO3 readings was 40-50ppm, but PO4 was zero ppm. My anubias leaves and glosso have green and black spots now. Last week I added only 0,1 grams KNO3 and ~0,016 PO4 daily. On Saturday I did 50% WC and from Sunday I stopped fertilizing and started adding 0,5 grams KNO3 daily to reach GSA and find out my weekly amount of KNO3. before last WC NO3 reading was 10-15ppm, but PO4 0ppm. My main plants (~75%) are PO4 consumers (anubiases, crypts, marsilea and microsorums) I have also glossostigma elatinoides, christmass moss, blyxa japonica, pogostemon helferi and hydrocotyle verticulata in my paludarium. I am afraid that my plants suffer from lack of PO4.


----------



## OVT

And now it is my turn to battle algae. I have Green Thread Algae overrunning my 12 gl 3-foot tank. The tank is about 6-months old and is about 40% planted with Rotala macrandra and 1 small red tiger lotus. The other 60% are Hemianthus callitrichoides and micranthemum, under 6700K HO H5 39W x 2 lights ~ 8hrs/day, Finnex 360 cannister filter, 100% AquaSoil Africana sand (NO PowerSand), Hagen 88 mini pressurized CO2 kit (grr) at about 25 ppm 24x7, EI-mid-range style fertilization, GH 6, KH 3.

I finally started doing testing and got Ph 5.8, NH3 0ppm, and NO3 of 80ppm (immediate 50% WC + Prime). I did not test PO4 before the WC.

The tank has no visible signs of any other algae, except 3-4 tiny spots of GSA.

I read and re-read this thread several times over the last 3 days. Most of it makes intuitive sense to me. Nevertheless, I cannot claim that I understand the tank's current water condition, macrandra, I understand' is a Ca priority plant and my NO3 is way over the top as it is. Therefore, I'm leery of starting the NO3 protocol.

Any insight is much appreciated. Thank you, Christian et al.


----------



## darkoon

nfrank said:


> Check your test kit to see the units for GH. The kits should also give you a formula for converting GH to ppm.
> 
> Typically, GH is reported as german degrees general hardness. Those units are different than ppm. To convert to ppm or mg/L, multiply by 17.8. So, GH of 8 is equivalent to 142 ppm of minerals. The Mg portion is estimated to be 142-50=92. Accordingly, your Mg to Ca ratio is ~ 1.8 : 1.


google time
according to this http://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/test-kits-and-testing
and this http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hardness-larryfrank.html

(ppm dGH - (2.5 x Ca ppm)) /4.1 = Mg ppm
his mg should be (8*17.8-2.5*50)/4.1 = 4.2 ppm.


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## nfrank

I dont think this formula from the provided link is correct:
((17.86 x dGH) - (2.5 x Ca ppm)) / 4.1 = Mg ppm​ Its derivation seems to be based on the convention that Ca and Mg are not typically reported as their ion concentations, but instead as carbonate equivalents. So,

if dGH*17.8 = CaCO3 +MgCO3 (all in ppm units) 
Then dGH*17.8 ~ = Ca* (41+60) / 41 + Mg * (25+60) / 25,
or dGH*17.8 ~= Ca*2.5 + Mg*3.4

It follows then that Mg ~= [dGH *17.8 - Ca*2.5]/ 3.4

So, the formula would seem to be correct if it said *3.4* instead of 4.1.

Note:41, 25 and 60 are the approximate atomic weights of Ca, Mg and CO3.
Also note that it is not important to compute the concentrations of Mg and Ca if all you are interested in is their ratios. Then carbonate equivalents work fine.

Dont believe everything you read on the internet. I also provide the caveat that i am not a chemist.


----------



## darkoon

always google when in doubt

from wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DGH
1 dGH is defined as 10 milligrams (mg) of calcium oxide (CaO) per litre of water

Atomic Weight Ca = 40, O = 16, CaO = 56
10 mg/liter CaO contains 40/56 *10 = 7.143 mg/liter of Ca 
Atomic weight of CaCO3 = 100
from here http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/Hardness.htm
A CaCO3 value of 100 mg/l would represent a free calcium concentration of 40 mg/l (divide CaCO3 value by 2.5) if hardness is caused by the presence of calcium only. Similarly, a CaCO3 value of 100 mg/l would represent a free magnesium value of 24 mg/l (divide CaCO3 value by 4.12) if hardness is caused by magnesium only.



nfrank said:


> I dont think this formula from the provided link is correct:
> ((17.86 x dGH) - (2.5 x Ca ppm)) / 4.1 = Mg ppm​ Its derivation seems to be based on the convention that Ca and Mg are not typically reported as their ion concentations, but instead as carbonate equivalents. So,
> 
> if dGH*17.8 = CaCO3 +MgCO3 (all in ppm units)
> Then dGH*17.8 ~ = Ca* (41+60) / 41 + Mg * (25+60) / 25,
> or dGH*17.8 ~= Ca*2.5 + Mg*3.4
> 
> It follows then that Mg ~= [dGH *17.8 - Ca*2.5]/ 3.4
> 
> So, the formula would seem to be correct if it said *3.4* instead of 4.1.
> 
> Note:41, 25 and 60 are the approximate atomic weights of Ca, Mg and CO3.
> Also note that it is not important to compute the concentrations of Mg and Ca if all you are interested in is their ratios. Then carbonate equivalents work fine.
> 
> Dont believe everything you read on the internet. I also provide the caveat that i am not a chemist.


----------



## nfrank

> *if *dGH*17.8 = CaCO3 +MgCO3 (all in ppm units)
> Then dGH*17.8 ~ = Ca* (41+60) / 41 + Mg * (25+60) / 25,
> or dGH*17.8 ~= Ca*2.5 + Mg*3.4
> 
> It follows then that Mg ~= [dGH *17.8 - Ca*2.5]/ 3.4


I see that the first part of my statement is not consistent with the definition of GH. 

In fact, the first statement should have been:
if dGH*17.8 = sum of Ca +Mg ( in *Calcium carbonate equivalent *ppm units).

To convert MgCO3 into "CaCO3 equivalent," the molecular wt of magnesium carbonate is multiplied by 100.1/84.3 = 1.19!



> Note:41, 25 and 60 are the approximate atomic weights of Ca, Mg and CO3.


Also, 40.1, 24.3 (not 41 and 25) are the approximate atomic weights of Ca, Mg.

So, the math should have been:
dGH*17.8 ~ = Ca* (40.1+60) / 40.1 + 1.19* [Mg * (24.3+60) / 24.3],
and
Mg ~= [dGH *17.8 - Ca*2.5]/ (3.5*1.19)
or 
Mg ~= [dGH *17.8 - Ca*2.5]/ 4.1

Sorry about the confusion. And like i said, dont believe everything you read on the internet 

IMO, calcium carbonate equivalent is an odd convention. It doesnt take into consideration the other ions that may be associated with Ca or Mg in natural water systems... particularly sulfates and chlorides. So, be aware that there may be some assumptions in the derivation of Mg.


----------



## nfrank

I had originally said


> Typically, GH is reported as german degrees general hardness. Those units are different than ppm. To convert to ppm or mg/L, multiply by 17.8. *So, GH of 8 is equivalent to 142 ppm of minerals*. The Mg portion is estimated to be 142-50=92. Accordingly, your *Mg to Ca *ratio is ~ 1.8 : 1.


It now seems that my first post above requires a clarification, but the effective answer may not be different!

When i said GH of 8 is equivalent to 142 ppm of minerals, i should have said GH of 8 is equivalent to 142ppm of *calcium carbonate equivalent* concentration. And, instead of the Mg to Ca ratio, it should have said the *Mg hardness to Ca hardness *ratio.

To derive the Mg hardness and Mg concentration, the Ca is converted into CaCO3 units, etc.

However, some test kits report the Ca not as Ca concentration, but as *calcium hardness*. So, 50 ppm Ca hardness may already be expressed as CaCO3!

Then the non-calcium portion is still 92 ppm of hardness, in calcium carbonate equivalent units!
and the magnesium to calcium hardness ratio is still 1.8!

Any comments?

What is important then is to make sure the units are proper and consistent.... and when Christian says the ratio should be 4:1, is it Mg/Ca, MgCO3/CaCO3 or (Magnesium hardness)/(Calcium hardness)?... where for the latter, Mg hardness is expressed in "calcium carbonate equivalent" units. I think that question was raised previously.


----------



## darkoon

nfrank said:


> However, some test kits report the Ca not as Ca concentration, but as *calcium hardness*. So, 50 ppm Ca hardness may already be expressed as CaCO3!


this is very possible, it needs to be clarified with the manufacture.



nfrank said:


> What is important then is to make sure the units are proper and consistent.... and when Christian says the ratio should be 4:1, is it Mg/Ca, MgCO3/CaCO3 or (Magnesium hardness)/(Calcium hardness)?...


this is my questions too, lol.


----------



## Darkheart

I have done KNO3 protocol successfully. GDA has gone. Next week I added weekly amount of KNO3 divided in 7 parts. I have no algae on glass and decorations now, but my anubias leaves are turning black and some new leaves are in unusually color - very light greenish. My glosso leaves have light yellow color and some of them are falling off and there are a short green algae on some of them.


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## slobodan

Hi everyone,

I'm hopping to get some help here as I've been fighting algae in my tanks since I set it up last October.
This method MCI has improved it a bit and I thank Christian and everyone else here for that.
Here is what I'm fighting right now:

Tank specs:
120gal - 60in x 18in x 22in
Ligth: 2 x 250W Metal Halides - 6700K
Substrate: 12mm (1/2")of garden soil topped with 70mm (2.5in) of playsand
Water: RO, TDS 150 ( i guess it gets some from sand and ferts, RO TDS is 1)
N03 - 20ppm , P03 - 0.5ppm, Ca ~ 20ppm, FE > 0.1ppm
CO2: pressurized

Now to describe what I'm having right now here are picture:

My mess:




























It's not like plants are not periling but alges are as well...  































































At this point I'm desperate and have no idea what to do..

I did KNO3 protocol and I do get GSA.. I add some PO3 and GSA disappears but GDA stays no the glass. You can see it that there is much more GDA where light pendant is closer to the water (stronger light). 
I did have what I think was blue/green algae, I used that Blue/Green remover medication and looks like it's not there anymore or is that pearling mess on my sand still Blue/green algae???
Aquarium look pathetic at this point and I'm not sure what to try next. As I said, I've been working on it since last October, is not like I didn't try.

Thanks in advance..


----------



## niko

Slobodan,

What kind of filter and what flow rate you have on your tank?


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## slobodan

Hi Niko,

It's Eheim Pro3 2080 - rated for ~300gal.. It's running at full speed..


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## slobodan

I just did 20 gal water change and I think that mulm at the bottom is Blue/Green algae. 
I did blackout for three days 3 times so far. It does disappear but comes back after couple of weeks.
I'm looking for erythromycin right now, it looks like it's only option.. 
I think I forgot to mention that I also have 25W UV light as well which is on 24/7.


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## farrenator

Lookig over your specs it looks like you have a ton of light. What is your photoperiod set at? Just recently I cut my photoperiod down from 10 hours a day to 4 hours on, 1 off, 4 hours on and it helped with the GDA I was getting on the glass. From the pics you posted I see the lights are hung a decent height above the tank but it still seems like a lot of light. FYI I have 216 watts fo t5h0 over a 75 gallon at 3" above the top of the tank.

Your water specs don't seem to be too bad. When I test my water I end up with 15-20pmm Nitrate and about 0.5ppm phosphate. I would try playing around with your lighting schedule.



slobodan said:


> I just did 20 gal water change and I think that mulm at the bottom is Blue/Green algae.
> I did blackout for three days 3 times so far. It does disappear but comes back after couple of weeks.
> I'm looking for erythromycin right now, it looks like it's only option..
> I think I forgot to mention that I also have 25W UV light as well which is on 24/7.


----------



## slobodan

Thanks for reply farrenator..
My lights are on and off during the day, It's like this:

Righ Light ON @ 12:00
Left Light ON @ 14:00
Left Light OFF @ 16:00
Left Light ON @ 17:55
Right Light OFF @ 18:00
Left Light OFF @ 22:00

I did try that too. About a month ago I had all lights off for a week. I didn't cover it to be pitch black but off never the less.. it subdued a bit but was back in no time..
I'm really desperate and there doesn't seem to be much help..


----------



## slobodan

I have quick question, is it possible that R/O water that went through R/O filter (of course ) with DI unit contains any kind of organic nutrients, traces, phosphates, nitrites etc. ???
When I measure TDS it's 1ppm..
I think not but want to confirm.


----------



## JeffyFunk

slobodan said:


> I have quick question, is it possible that R/O water that went through R/O filter (of course ) with DI unit contains any kind of organic nutrients, traces, phosphates, nitrites etc. ???
> When I measure TDS it's 1ppm..
> I think not but want to confirm.


RO is a proportional technique. In other words, the RO filter is only able to remove a certain proportion of the impurities in water across the RO membrane. Without a laboratory grade water purification system (which may also include a RO filter as a prepurification step), you will never achieve ASTM Type 1 water.

Furthermore, you have to be careful about low level TDS analysis. Unless you have a TDS Meter with a low level conductivity probe, I would take low level conductivity measurements w/ a grain of salt. Bottom line - w/out laboratory grade equipment, don't expect laboratory grade water (and you really don't have any need for home use).


----------



## slobodan

Thanks JeffyFunk..
I understand that. I was just trying to get my head around how to get rid of this blue/green algae and was wondering may be it's my water which is 100% R/O..


----------



## farrenator

By my calculations your lights are on for 10 hours per day:
2 hours at 250 watts
4 hours at 500 watts
2 hours at 250 watts
2 hours at 250 watts
Lights off for 14 hours.

Does the tank get any natural light? You wrote that you get less GDA where the light is further away. This sounds like a pretty big clue to me to cut down on your light! Have you tried an 8 hour photoperiod? At this point it seems like a very easy variable to paly with. Another option may be to see if you can diffuse the light some. Most hardware store sell rolls of black plastic screen material that should filter out 'some' of the light hitting the tank. I am by no means an expert but this seem like a painless and easy thing to experiment with.


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## TortoiseBoy

Hello,
I have been trying the MCI for a week or two and I have ended up with the algae in the attached pictures. Can anyone help me ID this algae and let me know what I can do about it? I was thinking it might be one of the species of rhodophytes (sp?) that Christian mentioned in his summary, but I could tell. Anyway, I never made it to GSA the first time I tried the NO3 protocol. I have lots of this algae instead. I am trying again after a big water change. I have added some MgSO4 to try to improve my Mg:Ca ratio. Oh, and CO2 and light should not be an issue. 

Thanks in advance!

TB


----------



## farrenator

You may want to post this in its own thread. This site can move kind of slowly at times and people may not be checking this thread very often. I wish I had an answer for you but I don't - but I do have that type of algae as well. It grows on my Anubias, albeit quite slowly now. I am dosing according to PPS Pro but at double the amount - the ratios between ferts is the same though.



TortoiseBoy said:


> Hello,
> I have been trying the MCI for a week or two and I have ended up with the algae in the attached pictures. Can anyone help me ID this algae and let me know what I can do about it? I was thinking it might be one of the species of rhodophytes (sp?) that Christian mentioned in his summary, but I could tell. Anyway, I never made it to GSA the first time I tried the NO3 protocol. I have lots of this algae instead. I am trying again after a big water change. I have added some MgSO4 to try to improve my Mg:Ca ratio. Oh, and CO2 and light should not be an issue.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> TB


----------



## Newt

TortoiseBoy said:


> Hello,
> I have been trying the MCI for a week or two and I have ended up with the algae in the attached pictures. Can anyone help me ID this algae and let me know what I can do about it? I was thinking it might be one of the species of rhodophytes (sp?) that Christian mentioned in his summary, but I could tell. Anyway, I never made it to GSA the first time I tried the NO3 protocol. I have lots of this algae instead. I am trying again after a big water change. I have added some MgSO4 to try to improve my Mg:Ca ratio. Oh, and CO2 and light should not be an issue.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> TB


If its black in color and not green its a type of Rodophyta 2 (red algae family). If its green then its most likely GSA. It looks black so>Increase MgSO4, cut back on Fe and photoperiod. Keep filter clean and increase CO2 and keep it steady as possible.


----------



## Nano85

Hopefully you guys can help me out.
For the past two months I have been battling algae and nothing seems to get rid of it. I recently came across Carlos' MCI method I am currently on day two of the kno3 GSA method. My questions pertain to MCI and this algae I have. It is very long green stringy algae that is attaching itself to everything, especially my glosso. I have a bit of BGA as well. I had a huge problem with GDA but this morning it seemed to be under control and I didn't have much on my glass (usually I have to wipe the sides every morning). I have been dosing around 4ppm of KNO3 for two days. Will the stringy algae go away once I figure out proper dosing or will I have to go through drastic measure to remove it (bleaching, manual removal, H2O2, etc)?
Thank you for your time!

Best
Rudy


----------



## wiijixx

Hi everyone!
I have a little problem with my tank.

Tank description:
190 L (50 gal), presurized Co2, 200w (150w hqi 6500 + 50w T5 2700), 1000 l/h fluval filter. Kh5-6 Ph 6,5. 50% water changes per week (25% tap water 75% osmosis)


I started with 1gr per day first week, then 2gr. Cyano(BGA) invassion and heteranthera turning black.
After a couple of month I had to re start my setup, because BGA.

I have re-started with a few plants and 3gr per day Kno3 (10ppm per day). Firsts weeks it was ok, but now BGA is growing again (but slower than with 1gr or 2 gr), and heteranthera getting black. In only just have a bit spot algae.
Questions are:
- is my kno3 pure?
- Does my plants eat too much nitrate (200w/12h)? (and they have to grow x5 or x6 to finish setup, only 3 weeks setup)
- other?

Waht the hell is happing here?

Sometimes I connect an UV filter to get cristal water. Maybe it destroy kno3... dont know.

If this keeps happening, i'll have to increase to 4gr or 5gr or 6gr kno3 per day (plants has to grow a lot more), but I think that this is too much salt in the water. isnt is?

Plz help me


----------



## Christian_rubilar

Heterahthera is a bio indicator of lack of Kno3, to have ciano too. You have HQI, so, yes, they problably need more.
The deal with Kno3 is that potassium is used and works as a limit. So, I think the answer is not. It is different if you use another salt.
I believe that your plants use them all.
You don´t mention other plants, so I asume that you have a monoculture. In those cases the consumptions can be very weird.
I discovered that some plants have special need and consumptions because i used to cultivate aquarium plants as a bussisness for paying the university.
The problem with hereteranthera is that you see the damage in the plant too fast when you have a lack. 
You mention that you use ro water? why? might there be an excess of Po4? Just guessing.


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## Yo-han

Uv can't destroy inorganic salts like KNO3. I think the reason is the 200W over 190L, this is 150W more than needed and you're more likely than not to have algae.


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## Christian_rubilar

Yo-han said:


> Uv can't destroy inorganic salts like KNO3. I think the reason is the 200W over 190L, this is 150W more than needed and you're more likely than not to have algae.


The "rules" about light per gallon doesn´t work with HQI. Depends on how far they are from the water, the bulb, the kind of luminary.

One thing is sure, with this light and proper Co2, those plants are going to uptake a lot of Kno3.

I had double that light in one tank without algae, it´s all about to find the uptakes.

You can also put the light a little farer from the water if you want to slow down the tank.


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## wiijixx

Thanks a lot Rubilar. Sorry my english is very bad, i'll write same questions in english and spanish, i know that Rubilar is spanish native.

Do you think that a possible solution could be to put some K2SO4 because K limits the use of NO3? and maybe more KNO3?

Is a problem to put a lot of salt in the aquarium? i think that when plants grow up, they could need 7 or 8 gr per day (50gr per week!!!). All this salt will be used? someone told me that KNO3 will be absorved by the plants, and transformed into another kind of salt that plants dont use...
I use RO water because tap water is KH12 ph 8-9
I`ll upload photos now

Y ahora en Español, mi idioma nativo. No hace falta que me respondas en español, entiendo bien el ingles.
Si pongo sulfato potasico aumentare entonces el consumo de nitrogeno verdad? con todo y con eso creo entonces que tendre que aumentar la cantidad de kno3, algo que no he hecho hasta ahora por el miedo a convertir el agua en agua salada. No será esto perjudicial? en algun lugar lei que las sales al ser absorvidas por las plantas se convierten en otro tipo de sal no usada por las plantas y que dicha sal se va acumulando siendo perjudicial. ¿has usado alguna vez tanto KNO3 en tus acuarios como planeo usar yo? Hablo de mas de 50gr cuando el acuario este en su apogeo.

Uso agua de osmosis por que el agua del grifo tiene ph 8-9 y kh 12
Voy a subir unas fotos.

EDITED: photos

http://www.flickr.com/photos/antoniocosme/sets/72157636842762453/

THANKS A LOT!


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## Christian_rubilar

wiijixx said:


> Do you think that a possible solution could be to put some K2SO4 because K limits the use of NO3? and maybe more KNO3?


It makes no sense.

I already gave my point of view. All I know is in the MCI, there is nothing left. I suggest you read it, you have my answers there.

But it is a mistake to make a mix of methods. You are doing that. I don't recommend to use potassium sulfate because produces the opposite you asserted. The lack limits, not the excess you propose. The problems normally happends when your No3 is zero, this is easier if you add potassium sulfate. The MCI limits K because I think the aquarium is more stable. There are a few plants that have special uptakes of K. Here is where my approach is different to the EI (lacks produces algae) or the old doctrine (excess produces algae). I suggest a method to discover the real uptakes of your plants in order to find the balance and I assert that imbalances allow algae to bloom.

I suggest you open a new thread. With all my respect, this one is not about your tank.

The whole idea when I wrote the MCI was to avoid to be essential. You can solve your issues without me. I don't agree with the "guru" approach where all depends on the personal answers of somebody. All I know is at the MCI, you have to follow it and make your own experience.

With all my respect, I m too busy. I'm a lawyer who defend illegal immigrants from deportation at Federal Courts and I'm overwhealmed with work and responsabilities because I have no space for mistakes.

Regards


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## niko

Wow, he is back from the dead! Nice to see you here Christian!

This thread makes way more sense than many things we love to discuss in this hobby. Thank you for it!


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## wiijixx

Sorry, Rubilar I have read your method more than 5 times, I think I didnt explain correctly. I use your method only, MCI. My english is no good and maybe i didnt understand your answer, I thouhg you told me to use potasium sulfate 

I go to the simple point then, easier to understund to me: ¿what is the solution to this problem? ¿have I to add more and more KNO3 until heteranthera goes right and ciano dissapear? i didnt do that, because i thougt that too many KNO3 would add too much salt to the water...


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## Christian_rubilar

1) Ciano protocol;
2) Kno3 protocol until you have GSA (Alga verde punto).

The MCI is in Spanish, just google MDC or Metodo de los desequilibrios controlados.

Regards


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## Christian_rubilar

niko said:


> Wow, he is back from the dead! Nice to see you here Christian!
> 
> This thread makes way more sense than many things we love to discuss in this hobby. Thank you for it!


I´m not dead, just toooooooo busy. The last 3 years I was developing a legal strategy to by pass the green card and go straight for citizenship for illegal immigrants who arrived without visa to Argentina.

I already won over 40 cases but I had to develope all the precedents that allow me to by-pass the requirements stablished by the federal judges.

http://baexpats.org/topic/10071-argentine-citizenship-for-foreigners/

And I had children in between.

I bought a new tank 18 monts ago. It is still empty...


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## wiijixx

Thanks you very much, i understand that doesnt matter how much KNO3 dosed.


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## wiijixx

Well I have discarded this method. Bought test and results was >50ppm no3 and 0 po4 after 3 weeks adding olny kno3 and no Po4 because I had BGA, and never got GSA

From MCI: "Cyanobacteria (BGA) is related to an imbalance between NO3 and PO4. Always means that there is too much PO4, it can also happen because there isn’t enough NO3."

Nice, nice....


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## niko

"Bought tests..."

Very nice.


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## GadgetGirl

I have a Walstad style 36 g bowfront , Finnex Planted + light. Aquarium is heavily planted. No ammonia, no nitrites. I have a horrible hair algae infestation. Peroxide just isn't working. Will this method work for me? I dose the standard Excel dose. No CO2.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Newt

Is a water change needed?
Treat with excel. Feed fish less.
Is there a nutrient limited?
Manually remove the algae.


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## GadgetGirl

I change 20% of water every couple of weeks. Can't up the Excel as I have shrimp. Can't manually remove as its completely attached to plants. Can only remove leaves. Very low bioload just tetras and corys. Lightly fed twice a day. 
I have no idea if nutrients are limited. It's a dirted aquarium. I'm trying the KNO3 protocol. We'll see if it works. I'm on day 4. No change yet. Getting very frustrated. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Christian_rubilar

If you follow just some parts of the recommendations, it won't work out. The water changes are very important. You mentiones that you only change 20% from time to time. Here is your first issue.


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## GadgetGirl

I did a 50% change at the start of the protocol and I will do another at Day 7. I will do more frequent changes from here on out. I didn't decrease light. I don't do CO2, but will continue with Excel at standard dose. Thanks! Will report back.


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## GadgetGirl

Week 3 - no change. 3rd 50% water change. I'm up to 3g/50gal kno3. Should I keep going or is this proof this protocol doesn't work on hair algae in a dirted tank with Excel only? (My nitrates are reading between 20 and 40 using API test kit.


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## Newt

GadgetGirl said:


> I change 20% of water every couple of weeks. Can't up the Excel as I have shrimp. Can't manually remove as its completely attached to plants. Can only remove leaves. Very low bioload just tetras and corys. Lightly fed twice a day.
> I have no idea if nutrients are limited. It's a dirted aquarium. I'm trying the KNO3 protocol. We'll see if it works. I'm on day 4. No change yet. Getting very frustrated.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Are you sure its not BBA. Hair algae is easily removed.


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## GadgetGirl

It's long thread-like strings. I'll post a pic when I get home from work just to be sure. 
You know, maybe I have 2 algae problems. This stuff won't come off, but it is strings at least 4 in long in some places. It's all bright green. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## GadgetGirl

Here is a close-up of algae and an overall pic. I trimmed a lot of the affected leaves out last night after the water change.


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## Newt

Thread algae - maybe
String Algae (Thread)	> Excess nutrients >	Water Change + get biofilter working (from RexGrigg.com)

I'll look at my Baench ref book later. I remember a picture like the first one.


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## GadgetGirl

Ok.. may be making some progress. Hair algae is seeming to not be anywhere near as rampant. Seeing some small GSA on glass. I am a little confused as to what my weekly maintenance dose of KNO3 should be. It's day 18.

Edit: I think I understand now after rereading this thread. The weekly dose should be 21 g/50 gal. Right?

Edit 2: Or, since it's day 4 of week 3, would it be 12g per week? 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## GadgetGirl

This seems like an interesting and relevant thread. Where is everybody? 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Yo-han

I think this is not a very popular method on this forum. I tried almost a dozen common methods right now including MCI and this one failed the hardest for me. 

First off I had problems finding the exact amount of each nutrient. When to stop, are 3 spots of GSA ok, or do I continue till absolutely nothing is visible. Second, a month later the uptake of every nutrient changed. First of all due to the fact that plant mass doubled. Second because plants can buffer certain nutrients as does my substrate (aqua soil). So it's quite Hard to get constant results. So I never used it and I know very little people on this forum who do, so expect very little response except from Christian himself perhaps.


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## GadgetGirl

Hmmm, I see. I have to admit I was attracted to it because it seemed like an easy way to deal with hair algae. It's working so far, but who knows it might just be the more frequent and larger water changes. 
I stopped titrating the nitrate when I was certain what I was seeing was GSA. 
Still not sure if this will work long term with a Walstad aquarium. Anyway, I'll continue posting here. Maybe Christian will answer! 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## BruceF

algaefix isn't a bad alternative for minor problems, just saying......


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## Tomeksup

Hello every one. 

I'm looking for the author of the topic. I have question. Is he still reading.


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## slobodan

I tried this method and been using it for awhile right now.. it works... it took me awhile to get hang of it but at the end worked..
What I found in all these years is that as important CO2 is so it's O2.. good bacteria requires O2 to be able to convert nutrients.. let your spray bar splash and agitate surface.. you will not loose that much of CO2.. and it will make world of difference... plants can't produce enough O2 to compensate for injected CO2.




Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## Ronaldo

Hi guys! I new here and I need some help.... Before asking a lot of questions I would like to identify this algae ... Is this algae green string algae or short string algae?
Could somebody please help me?


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## slobodan

Ronaldo, regardless which one it is I would start doing water changes and add KNO3 only..
I would replace 100% of water once a week.. it all depends on how big your tank is..
Also, i can't see if you have anything agitate the surface.. you need to have oxygen... There are very few alges that thrive in well oxygenated water.
I think it's more important for you as it looks like new setup.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## slobodan

To me it looks like slime more than any of you mentioned. .

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## qqrq

@Christian_rubilar

Ca vs Mg 1:4, what does it mean? is this realy ca=1, mg=4 ??, ca=2 mg=8 ?? ca=3, mg=12??, ca=4 mg=16 ??


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## Yo-han

All of those, it's a ratio


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## qqrq

i know, but if I would like to do an experiment, how best ratio?? I have mineralizator mg=20 ca=5, its good?


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## realtrue

Hello, Mr. Christian. Could you tell me how to improve the concentration of magnesium ion? Which chemical should I use?. You said before the calcium chloride will burn microsorium，how about magnesium chloride？ Can I use it? Is there anything better to recommend?


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## BruceF

epson salt


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## realtrue

but it contains sulfur element, Christian said avoid sulfur element as can as possible.


BruceF said:


> epson salt


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## hoppycalif

Dolomite, magnesium carbonate, will add more magnesium to the water, while also raising the KH of the water. Dolomite dissolves very slowly, so there is definitely a limit on how much magnesium you could add this way.


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## realtrue

hoppycalif said:


> Dolomite, magnesium carbonate, will add more magnesium to the water, while also raising the KH of the water. Dolomite dissolves very slowly, so there is definitely a limit on how much magnesium you could add this way.


thanks for your suggestion.


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## realtrue

If my tank has 16ppm Ca ,I need to add 64ppm Mg ,the total hardness will reach to 18 properly!!! Is it too much high for a plants aquarium?


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## Tu4kin

Hello!
I tried the MCI in my tank. The method helped me to determine the dosages of NO3 and PO4.
Recently I brought into my aquarium Spirogyra. Please tell me how to win it. I tried glut, hydrogen peroxide. Either it does not help at all, or it helps, but not for long.


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## hoppycalif

Tu4kin, welcome to APC! Remember, it is always best to concentrate on growing lots of healthy plants, instead of concentrating on fighting algae. I'm not sure if this MCI process has ever been widely accepted. I know I don't use it.


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## hoppycalif

Orbinal, there is a forum here, https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/water-bucket/ that is appropriate for this type of question, but this forum isn't.


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## Eyeslikepeanuts

May I ask why dosing seachem nitrogen doesn't in this method?


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## Christian_rubilar

Eyeslikepeanuts said:


> May I ask why dosing seachem nitrogen doesn't in this method?


Because it is not Kno3.


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## Eyeslikepeanuts

I have been trying out this method for a couple of months using seachem nitrogen, phosphorus and tropica premium (micros) with some success. 

Thank you for sharing this. 

Extremely happy with this method as it greatly reduces the level of husbandry needed. My glass stay clean all the time.


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