# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Can't keep plants alive



## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

For 2 years, I have been trying to cultivate an aquatic garden without success. New plants start out well enough, but after a week or so, they begin to die. The growing tips of H polysperma shrivel and die; wisteria produces completely white, shriveled leaves; Vals and swords produce only colorless, transparent leaves; and pennywort leaves shrivel and become covered in algae. I can't even keep duckweed alive; it turns white and disappears. The weird thing is that all of these plants go to their death pearling! Any suggestions (aside from finding a new hobby)?

Tank Parameters:

65g, 128watts of cool white T8's

pressurized CO2

pH 6.7; KH=4

Schultz aquatic plants soil with some potting soil (~2 cups)mixed in

50% weekly water change

Added at every water change:

1 tsp KNO3
1/4 tsp KH2PO4
1 tsp MgSO4
1.5 TBSP CaCl2 (my GH has always measured 0 as per AP test kit)
trace mix

I have used this regimen for 2 years, with some modifications.
For example, I tried tripling the amount of macros for 5 weeks, but the plants still died. I tried increasing macros and traces; no good.


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

For 2 years, I have been trying to cultivate an aquatic garden without success. New plants start out well enough, but after a week or so, they begin to die. The growing tips of H polysperma shrivel and die; wisteria produces completely white, shriveled leaves; Vals and swords produce only colorless, transparent leaves; and pennywort leaves shrivel and become covered in algae. I can't even keep duckweed alive; it turns white and disappears. The weird thing is that all of these plants go to their death pearling! Any suggestions (aside from finding a new hobby)?

Tank Parameters:

65g, 128watts of cool white T8's

pressurized CO2

pH 6.7; KH=4

Schultz aquatic plants soil with some potting soil (~2 cups)mixed in

50% weekly water change

Added at every water change:

1 tsp KNO3
1/4 tsp KH2PO4
1 tsp MgSO4
1.5 TBSP CaCl2 (my GH has always measured 0 as per AP test kit)
trace mix

I have used this regimen for 2 years, with some modifications.
For example, I tried tripling the amount of macros for 5 weeks, but the plants still died. I tried increasing macros and traces; no good.


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

this is rather odd. A GH of 0 is extremey odd. How old is your test kit? possibly gone bad? You might want to measure your nitrate/phosphate/CO2 levels. Perhaps you are under/overdosing something

From the numbers you have given, you dose:
~15ppm NO3, 2.8ppm PO4, and 9.5ppm K.

You also mention you MIXED some potting soil (ie not a bottom layer). perhaps you are betting leaching. ...nutrient overdose? Your apparent levels seem rather high for ~2wpg.

I think good test results will help figure this out.

How much trace? What trace? What is your source of KNO3 (did you use the RIGHT stump remover if this is the case?) and KH2PO4?


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## The Bishop (Mar 11, 2004)

Maybe more light will help the plants suck up all those nutrients...?

Ca deficiency/overload...?

K overload...?

Just guesses.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i find it real odd that you can't grow even duckweed.... something is definitely wrong. perhaps t8 cool whites do not provide the right kind of light?? 

perhaps you are overdosing cuz if the light source is wrong, then the plants won't really take in nutrients....

for example, i used a 50/50 bulb to experiment with plant growth....my plants turned yellow.... so i went back to cool white/daylight combo...and then they greened right back up in 2 days... perhaps get some daylight bulbs to balance out your cool whites. 

plus 128 watts is on the border of failure and success...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

one more thing, can you grow java moss?


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Thank you all for responding.

Gomer: I am also suspicious of the test kit. To date, I've owned a malfunctioning Red Sea & Hagen phosphate kit, and a Seachem & AP nitrate kit (I tested them against std. solutions). So, I gave up on test kits, and added the Ca and Mg anyway. From what I had read on the WEB, having a very high GH shouldn't bother the plants.

As far as soil goes: I added some Schultz 1st, then some soil, then more Schultz. I added enough water to just submerse the substrate. After 4 days, I added additional water, did a water change, and then filled up the tank. But, I did not test after that. I added fish, and they seemed fine; they're still with me.

My KNO3 was purchased from one of the online h-ponics stores mentioned on one of the forums. My KH2PO4 is from Acros chemicals, and my trace, Fert-All M, is from some other h-ponic store. It's a concentrated mix (about 100x more than TMG), chelated by lignosulfonic acid; I add 1 tsp 
per week.

Bishop: I agree that I add a lot of Ca. previously, I had tried adding less (2 tsp Ca to 
1 tsp Mg), with similar results. I have been adding Ca & Mg because the white wisteria leaves led me to suspect a Ca deficiency.

Algae Grower: As for your name, you might be interested to know that I can't grow algae! Well, OK, I had green water once (I think), but it went away on its own in a few days. But, I have never seen hair algae or spot algae, and I've only seen BBA in the petstore.

As to your question: I had Java Moss once as a foreground. It never did anything...didn't die, didn't spread. I would clean it once a month under running water, and it always looked healthy, but it just sat there.

I will try different lighting. Home Depot has only warm and cool to choose from, so I'll substitute some warms for the cools I have now. I never suspected my lighting because my plants pearl like mad. They start 1 hour after lights on and continue until lights off.

Thanks again,

Brian


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Algae grower: I just realized I blundered. I said I never got algae; I did--soft, mushy green-- but it
confined itself to the sickly pennywort.

Sorry,

Brian


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

it's so weird that for two years you have had this problem.... 

i used to have plants growing in white also when i first started...my plants pearled like crazy too and they were growing in an unbelievable rate.... i think what is happening is that your plants are growing so fast and sucking up all the nutrients.... it can either be nitrate, iron, or calcium, or all three..... what did i do to get over the problem??? i fed my fish extremely heavily .,


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

man! this is so weird!! come on guys, we gotta get to the bottom of this for this poor guy...2 years!! o man..!!  so you've just been replacing plants every month or something??


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Algae Grower: Thanks for the empathy. Yes, I've done a lot of replacing. At 1st, I rationalized it by saying: I just need to find the plants that work for my setup...hahahaaaaaaaa. After that phase, i decided to go emersed. I got some water lettuce, which, believe it or not, survived. But, I missed the submersed plants so much, I decided to try it again. I resolved to buy only hardy plants....hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. It was at this point that I had started following the fert regimen I posted (about 1 year ago). I read more stuff on the Web and decided I just needed to tweak my regimen, so I bought more plants.....hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. So, I've spent around $1,000 on plants to date...so how come my tank has only driftwood and fish?

Brian


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## aquatrippe (Apr 6, 2003)

Brian,

Are you adding anything like aquarisol or anything with copper in it to the aquarium?

I am not a plant expert but it sounds as though your plants are being poisened.

My guess is that there is something in your water or substrate that is killing the plants...the sudden death thing doesn't sound like a nutrient deficiency to me..

What do you add to your water? anything with copper or copper salts?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i have overdosed copper before when iused terrestrial fertilizer....with copper, your plants will melt like crazy, they won't even pearl or grow..


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Aquatrippe: Your suggestion seems very reasonable. I do not add anything other than the ferts I mentioned, but metals or other toxins may already be present in the water.

I live in a co-op. My building is full of the newly-wed and nearly-dead. Neither group has experienced mysterious illness, and there is no building-wide water softener. Still, small amounts of copper may come from the pipes. This might explain why algae has a tough time making a living in my tank. I will also get a water quality report from the water authority.

Brian


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Brian,

Your lighting stands out as a possible problem. Cool whites are made to look bright to the human eye. They put out relatively little of their power in those parts of the spectrum that plants use. You can grow plants under cool whites, but to do so you need to use more lighting watts than you would if you used a broader spectrum lamp.

Do you have a commercial lighting supplier near by who sells Philips bulbs? If so then you can try the Philips ADV850 lamps. They are more expensive than cool white, but they are one of the most efficient lamps you can get and they will be a substantial upgrade in terms of color rendition.

128 watts from ADV850s over my 55 gallon tank was a fairly blinding experience.

If not light, then the symptoms you describe sound like a severe nutrient deficiency. A nutrient deficiency would seem to be out of the question given your dosing regime.


Roger Miller


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## rocco (Jan 6, 2004)

i tend to agree with roger and would start looking at the lighting. your problems sound like they began the moment your plants get in your tank. plants can store nutrients for a period of time and it sounds you are having problems with both stem plants and root feeders alike. that and the fact you can't even grow algae.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

yes, my first guess was also lighting....but why is it that his plants are pearling then??? wouldnt that be a sign of enough light?


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Roger, Rocco, and Algae Grower: I certainly shall take your advice to try different lighting. Still, I have to ask: if lighting is a problem, why do my plants pearl ebulliently? The reason I went for the quick and easy Home Depot lighting was what I had read in Diana Walstad's book. In it, she describes a simple experiment involving various combo's of bulbs and the amount of oxygen produced by a test plant. Cool white lights produced the 2nd largest amount of O2. She goes on to speculate that green light may be what aquatic plants have adapted to.

Brian


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Roger, could my water be too saline, or have too much sodium? I recently read some of your posts on that topic. I have to get a report from my water authority. My water is from an aquifer, if that means anything to you.

Brian


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

Your water is from an aquifer and you have GH=0? ummm...you need new test kits


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Gomer: I am also suspicious of the test kit. To date, I've owned a malfunctioning Red Sea & Hagen phosphate kit, and a Seachem & AP nitrate kit (I tested them against std. solutions). So, I gave up on test kits, and added the Ca and Mg anyway. From what I had read on the WEB, having a very high GH shouldn't bother the plants.


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## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

Brian,

You say your water is from an aquifer... does your co-op use a private well, or is the water supplied by the city? If it is a private well, it is possible that it may have some serious contamination. Although not common (don't everyone get worked up about their own well here), it does happen if there is hazardous waste in the area (which you may not know about). If it is a private well, I would stop drinking/cooking with it immediately, and get it tested, especially for VOCs (volatile organic compounds). If VOCs are detected above an acceptable level, don't even shower with it (you will breathe them in). 

I only suggest this because people are having difficulty diagnosing your problem. Don't panic here, but it the well is private, do get it tested. If the well is a city well, don't worry at all.

-Laura


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## imported_Sue (Jan 31, 2004)

Just a passing thought........
Farmingdale, LI?
Before I moved into the boonies I used to live in Bohemia there. I vaguely remember problems with phosphates and detergents in the aquifer and other assorted water quality problems. There was actually a ban on the sale of detergents when I was a kid. Used to have to drive in Nassau county for laundry soap which of course defeated the purpose and was unenforceable and didn't last more than a few years.
Check with where ever your water is coming from.

We used to have a well that I could switch to for fishtank use. Authorities claimed the aquifer wasn't safe anymore but our property bordered a huge state park and any water that moved into our well came out of natural, protected lands.
This was in the late 60's and 70's. I can't imagine the water quality has gotten better. Just too much pressure on it.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Brian, you're right. Bubbling ebuliently (great word) does not go hand-in-hand with a lighting problem. With all due respect the Diana's sources, I've grown plants under cool whites and figure it's about the worst lamp for the job. Maybe HPS or mercury vapor lamps are worse, but I haven't tried those.

That leaves us with a major nutrient problem -- despite your additions -- or some sort of heavy metal toxicity.

It's interesting that your water comes from aquifer. Plants will grow (if gradually adapted) in water with much higher salinity then you're going to get out of a tap in this country. In order for salinity to be a problem you would notice a very salty taste.

It is possible to get ground water with 0 GH and sodium levels so high that it kills plants. It's uncommon and I would expect your calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate additions to offset that effect. I don't know of any occurances of that kind of water in NY, but I learn new things all the time.

By all means check with your water authority. I don't know about New York but in most places in the US a well that provides public water (even if just to a co-op) falls under testing and reporting regulations. You should be able to get a water report. If nothing else there should be values that you can use to compare against test kit results.

Speaking of test kits... since it does sound like a major nutrient problem you should probably get the relevant test kits and test the water in your tank. I have to wonder if something could come up where the CaCl2 you're using really isn't CaCl2 or the KNO3 isn't really KNO3, and so on. A test kit gives you the only way of knowing.

If you have a history of bad experiences with test kits then you might want to spring for a better kit. Hach and LaMotte both make excellent kits. Among hobby products, SeaTest kits seem to be pretty good. They market them only for the marine side of the hobby but usually the difference between sea water and saltwater won't prevent you from using the same kit.


Roger Miller


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Thank you all.

I shall investigate my water's source & quality.

Brian


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## imported_Sue (Jan 31, 2004)

I wasn't all that into plants when I live on LI but I could grow duckweed by the gobs and some kind of hygro and anachris. Don't remember anything other live ones in my tanks.

Salt I suppose could be a possibility. LI is just a fish shaped lump of glacial junk between the Atlantic and the LI Sound. Mostly sand, Lots of rocks on the north shore.

Little bit about LI aquifer
http://www.newsday.com/extras/lihistory/1/hs108a.htm


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## The Bishop (Mar 11, 2004)

Clearly the plants are unable to produce chlorophyll pigments. What deficiency or toxicity would most likely inhibit this...?

I have been adding a few macros to my tank to see if it helps at all with color or vigor. The shoot tips on a few of my Myriophyllum species are turning whitish. All of the macros I dose contain K, which I think might be a problem. I think cutting BACK on the ferts for a while (maybe even cutting them out altogether) and then rebuilding your regimen while paying close attention will help out a great deal.

It may seem like a good idea to throw a lot of stuff in the water, but I say let it go for a while and see what happens. And don't forget to add a little more light.


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## Auroraborealis (Apr 26, 2004)

Another thing you might try in the meantime while you're waiting for a water report is buying/collecting water from a different source and seeing if that changes how the plants do in your tank. If they do better and all your procedures have remained the same, then you know it was the water.
Good luck!
-Auroraborealis


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i cannot find the ADV850s anywhere....where do you get them Rog?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Where have you looked? I went to a local commercial lighting supplier that specializes in Philips lamps (Voss Lighting) and bought them over the counter.

Years ago I went to the same store and mentioned the high price that my LFS was charging for some Philips lamps. The guy behind the desk said that the LFS bought the lights from him at retail prices and apparently doubled that price to sell them at the LFS. I haven't bought lamps from a fish store since.


Roger Miller


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## rocco (Jan 6, 2004)

the bubbling was bothering me too and i admit, this is way beyond anything my very limited experience has to offer.

just to stir the pot though: suppose the bubbling is not the pearling we are accustomed to and rather an expulsion of gases as in a dying breath or chemical reaction?

i will just sit back now and hope to watch this mystery unfold.


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## imported_Sue (Jan 31, 2004)

The Newsday article I posted a link to had other stories about the LI aquifer. Got curious and found an awful lot about it doing a google search. Kind of unique interesting thing.
It is heavily polluted, pesticides, heavy metals. The water companies are spending a fortune to get it drinkable and public health is constantly monitoring it.

http://water.usgs.gov/pubs/circ/circ1201/appendix.htm

Sometimes I get a little homesick. When I read this stuff it goes away. I can drink any moving water here.


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Along the lines of Bishop's recommendations, I did a 90% water change and dosed according to the fert regimen I posted, with one exception: I added only 1/2 tsp of KNO3; normally, I would add 1 tsp after a 50% change.

The results: Red and seemingly healthy new growth is emerging from the "dead," shriveled tips of sunset hygro. Once white and dying wisteria is producing new green growth. These are unprecedented results for me.

Roger, rightfully, wanted me to verify that my KNO3 is truly KNO3. I did a flame test to verify that the cation is K+; I don't know how to test for NO3- w/o taking a sample to an analytical lab. 

I thank everyone for their suggestions.


Brian


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I did a flame test to verify that the cation is K+; I don't know how to test for NO3- w/o taking a sample to an analytical lab.


Brian,

Interesting approach. I seem to remember that was very difficult to distinguish between sodium and potassium in a flame test. Potassium gives a little pinker color?

You would test for nitrate by dissolving a small amount in water and using a nitrate test kit to detect the nitrate.

Given the symptoms you describe I was actually more concerned about the calcium chloride than the KNO3. If I remember right you can use the flame test on the CaCl2. Doesn't calcium produce a reddish flame?

Roger Miller


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Roger, I observed a violet-white color with K, versus a very yellow color for Na (I used NaHCO3; I don't know if the anion interfered). I then found a college chem experiment posted somewhere on the web, and the answer key agreed with my assignments.

I didn't mean to sound dumb when I said I didn't know how to test for NO3-; I should have said "...with what I currently have at home." I threw my nitrate kits out a while ago. I think I will purchase the SeaTest kit you recommended.

Brian


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

I'll look into the CaCl2.

Brian


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Roger, I tried the CaCl2 flame test. It's supposed to be red-orange, but I couldn't distinguish it from the color of the flame itself. The CaCl2 is packaged as de-icer, and the ingredients list only CaCl2 and water.

Brian


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

As I suspected, my success was short-lived. The sunset hygro tips have died, and the new wisteria growth is white and deformed.

Oh, well.

Brian


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## Eric686 (Dec 3, 2003)

Brian did you get the water test back yet?
If not I would like to go back to the lighting in your tank as a problem. Roger Miller said in one of his post:


> quote:
> 
> Your lighting stands out as a possible problem. Cool whites are made to look bright to the human eye. They put out relatively little of their power in those parts of the spectrum that plants use. You can grow plants under cool whites, but to do so you need to use more lighting watts than you would if you used a broader spectrum lamp.


I found a couple of sites that you can conpare your lights to others that are on the market.

This one has actual spectrum pictures for a visual.
Fluorescent Light Comparison
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/spectra.html

This one is table of numbers. 
Comprehensive Fluorescent Tube Data

http://www.thekrib.com/Lights/fluorescent-table.html

Good luck a keep us posted on your results.


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Thanks for reviving the thread. Hoa's site clearly shows that some cool whites have very little red or blue intensity. Maybe I'm being stupidly stubborn, but, for the moment, I'm still suspicious of my water; the fact that I get so much pearling suggests that the plants are p-synthesizing. But, if my current efforts fail, I'll look into lighting.

A water test costs $200; I don't have that much free cash available at the moment (I spent it all on doomed plants!), so I'll not be testing my tapwater. Recently, I wrote to the water authority, requesting a report (they don't have a website!). While waiting for a response, I tried some home testing. I took roughly 10oz of my tap water and boiled it away, leaving about 20mg of a white powder. I added a few drops of tap water to the powder; all of it dissolved, suggesting it didn't contain Mg or Ca carbonates, which are insoluble. I took the pH of this sample; it was way above 8 (off the scale of my high end pH test kit), suggesting the sample contained carbonates. I added CaCl2 to the sample; this gave a precipitate, but no fizzing. This suggests that the sample contained soluble carbonate salts, but no bicarbonate (HCO3) salts (they would have fizzed). A flame test gave a bright yellow.

All the evidence suggests sodium carbonates, however, I can't rule out the presence of other metals (e.g. Cu, Zn, etc), although you would suspect that they would give a non-yellow flame test. This result is consistent with the hypothesis that high sodium levels lead to Ca deficiency in the presence of K.

So, I did a 90% water change and added 0.6 cups(!) of CaCl2 and 0.2 cups of MgSO4. In addition, I dosed 1 tsp of Ca(NO3)2 with just a pinch of KNO3 thrown in. That was about 3 days ago, and, so far, the results are very promising. New growth is appearing on the wisteria; it is a light green, but the new leaves are about 2x as big as I've ever seen them in my tank. The hygro sunset has put out red--albeit somewhat small--leaves. Also, a few stems of once dying ludwigia repens are recovering.

Of course, I have no hope that the improvement will continue.

Brian


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

6 *cups* of CaCl2!? That's a lot.

I'm not familiar with Farmingdale, but I understand from my now long-ago education that wells in parts of Long Island have suffered from sea water intrusion. Out of curiosity I just checked the Na:Ca ratio in sea water. It's 264:1. That means if your well has suffered even a proportionately very small amount of seawater intrusion that the Na:Ca ratio is likely to be very high. Incidentally, the Mg:Ca ratio in sea water is 3.18:1 and the K:Ca ratio is 0.95:1. That should give you some pretty odd water.


Roger Miller


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## Eric686 (Dec 3, 2003)

It is an interesting site to look at all those bulbs and find out which on is better than the other.
I keep trying folow all the chemistry that every talks about but I am slowly absorbing it. I did worse than fail chemistry in High school (failing is 60%), I did'nt even take it (0%)


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Oh...and I've got algae! Yeah!! Brown gunk.

Brian


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## imported_Sue (Jan 31, 2004)

The water dept. should be able to tell you what it's most recent test parameters were.

Most of Nassau county has salt troubles with their water. Only exception is right at Jones Beach for some weird reason.
There was also major problems with phosphates when I left NY.


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## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

Brian,

Two thoughts here regarding the possible effects of salt water intrusion into your water

If your Na:Ca ratio is high, the sodium could be blocking Ca uptake. Studies (I don't have any on hand) have indicated that Ca supplementation in crops can offset Na toxicity.

Salt water would also introduce chlorides. And, you also dose calcium chloride. This could make for a lot of chloride in your water. Excess chloride can also be toxic and can prevent nitrogen uptake.

Both of these conditions can result chlorophyll production problems. You may have either problem, or even both.

Some things I might try at this point:
- increase calcium to offset potential sodium toxicity. Do this without adding chlorides

- assess your nutrient dosing strategy to ensure that no other chlorides are being added.

- dose nitrates to offset potential chloride toxicity

If all else fails, at this point I would use some water from another source, just to see what happens! Note that neither sodium nor chloride are removed at the water treatment plant, so a water source that is not from your aquifer would be appropriate. If I had been dealing with this problem as long as you have, I would do this step just to see if it is the water at all.

Good luck,
Laura


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Laura: Perhaps you could suggest a way of introducing a big slug of calcium that I haven't thought of. I have some crushed coral mixed in with my substrate. It alone did not seem to do anything. There's gypsum, CaSO4, but it is only modestly water soluble. I have Ca(NO3)2, which is soluble, but adding a large dose would also add a lot of NO3; do you think this would have a negative impact? And finally, there's CaCl2. It's soluble, but, as you noted, it adds a lot of Cl. Still, I'm a bit hopeful for the CaCl2, as I'm seeing some recovery in my plants.

Sue: I'm going to call the water authority tomorrow; they have not yet replied to my letter.

Brian


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## imported_Sue (Jan 31, 2004)

Laura might be on the right track with the calcium. We used to have a good deal of our back acres planted and I remember my father constantly putting the lime to the veggies gardens, spring and fall both. Here I lime my gardens only every 5 years or so even though my soil and water is calcium poor. No problems.

How big a tank is this? If it isn't too big you can just add some generic calcium vitamin supplements to the water. All the store brands I've picked up are just calcium carbonate ground real fine and compressed into a pill. Dissolves pretty fast. My water is real acid and really soft so I have to put the stuff to it to get my plants and snails to grow decent.

Lot of people use reef calcium supplements. I just scored a bottle of liquid calcium for reptiles for a dollar at one of those dollar stores. Ingredients - calcium carbonate and vitamin d.


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

Calcium sulfate (gypsum) is roughly 1000x more soluble than calcium carbonate, and I've tried gypsum before with no visible success. Still, it's possible I didn't wait long enough to see results before I stopped adding it.

Brian


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## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

Hi Brian,

How's the tank? Any better?

-Laura


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## countrymouse (Jul 6, 2003)

Hi,

I just reread this thread (rather quickly, so correct me if I missed this) and didn't see what your PO4 levels are and why you're adding it. I went looking for that because 1. it looks (best I can tell) as though you've combed through everything else, and 2. you mentioned that you were getting brown algae (diatoms) and 3. something interesting just happened in one of my tanks, involving PO4 levels. 

I have a 20g tank with 2 goldfish and a few varieties of plants (lucky these two don't eat plants). The PO4 levels in this tank have remained at 1.5-2 ppm until recently, and there's been brown algae everywhere. Less than two weeks ago I added 3-4 bunches of cabomba across the rear to replace giant hygro that rotted: the stems wasted away and the leaves came off. (Giant hygro is pretty tough, so I was really surprised.) Yesterday, after my weekly water change, the PO4 level was .2 ppm. (I had added 2 bunches to my 55g as well, and the PO4 in there came down to .5 ppm.) Now I'm waiting to see what's going to happen with the brown algae in the 20g (none in the 55g, go figure). 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that really excessive PO4 can interfere with uptake of certain nutrients (but can't remember which). If you haven't already ruled out an excess of it, test and find out how much you have. Cabomba bunches are fairly cheap; if you're game, try adding a few and let us know whether it works for you as a PO4 sink.


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## brwaldbaum (Apr 23, 2004)

The tank is still improving. I have purposely not done a water change since the 7th of May and have added 0.4 more cups of CaCl2 since then. The wisteria leaves are coming in bigger and darker green than before. The ludwigia continues to improve in color and leaf size. Yesterday, I replaced two of my cool white 32watt T8's with full spectrum T8's. Perhaps that will also improve conditions.

I called my water authority, as they never responded to my written request for a water report. I was told that the guy who's in charge of the reports was on vacation for two weeks. I was told that no one else working there knew where he kept the reports. So, I called the Monday he was supposed to return from vacation and was told that the water reports will be mailed in two weeks. Still, if I get a water report 1 month after requesting one, I will consider that a victory.

Brian


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