# Lesco and SoilMaster Select



## Jimbo205

I have read in a post elsewhere

that if you call a local Lesco store to order SoilMaster Select Charcoal, 
they will tell you anything to make it as difficult as possible to special order one or two bags.

*BUT if you order one or two bags of the SoilMaster Select Charcoal ONLINE*, 
that they HAVE to deliver it to the local Lesco store and you can pick it up there; AND THEY HAVE NO CHOICE.

I have not verified this myself, but was almost tempted to order a bag or two just to see if it is true.

*Is there anyone who currently needs one or two bags of SoilMaster Select Charcoal, 
that would be willing to try this and see if this works?*

If this is true, there may be *A LOT OF HOBBYISTS *that would *ALL DO THE EXACT SAME THING*.

Let us know.

Thanks.

(I would just love to know if this loophole is true or not!)


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## cwlodarczyk

Sorry man, this is just wishfull thinking. I tried ordering online (placed my order and pressed "buy") and received a call the next day saying that if I wanted it they'd be happy to get it for me, at an additional cost per bag to cover shipping.

If you just call they'll get it for you in most cases, but it can be as much as $30 more to ship.


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## MatPat

Whatever Lesco you call, try and speak with the manager versus the person who does the ordering. I tried for several weeks to get some Soilmaster from my local Lesco. The guy who does the ordering kept telling me he would order some and call me when it came in. He never did return a single one of my calls and I called him weekly! Another SWOAPE member spoke with a manager at a Cincinnati store and they were more than willing to order us what we wanted.

Jimbo, I was told something similar to this by the Marketing Director for Soilmaster. He said Lesco's are _*usually*_ willing to transfer one or two bags of a product between stores...remember, this was from the Soilmaster representative and not from a Lesco representative.

Sometimes, by speaking with a manager, they will be willing to get a bag or two of a product for you, especially if it is at a store they already have a shipment coming from. For example, a store in Toledo has Soilmaster Select Charcoal in stock and it is not moving off of the shelf. The store in Cinci can see they have it and if the Cinci store already has some stuff scheduled to be shipped from Toledo, it is no problem for them to add on a couple more bags to the shipment in most cases.

The other option is to get together with some other hobbyists in your area (a good reason to be involved in a local club) and see if they would like to go in on a larger order. If you can explain to the local club members that 50lbs is more than adequate for a 75g substrate in a plant tank (may do two 75g tanks in a fish only setup) and the cost is only about $16 for 50lbs, you should be able to lure a few people in ordering some. Most places are willing to help if the order is larger than one or two bags. Soilmaster Select works great in fish only tanks also and the price makes both fish and plant people happy!


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## hooha

It's hit or miss with the Lesco's. I called the nearest one to me and the manager told me "Only the Cleveland Indians can get it" I called the next Lesco nearby and they happily ordered it for me.


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## BryceM

I wasn't aware that the Cleveland Indians were keeping planted tanks .


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## elaphe

I tried to get some, and was told that I had to order a complete pallet of it. They did call around for me to see if anyone had a bag in stock. They actually did call me back about 45 min later and tell me that they couldn't find any, and couldn't order just one bag.

Ended up going with Flourite.

Brian


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## yoink

I ordered online and chose local pickup. The only communication I had with the store manager was when he called to let me know it came it.


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## BryceM

I have 4-1/2 bags of it that anyone in the Burley, Idaho area is welcome to for $15/bag. Local pickup only. I also know of SMS Charcoal at an LFS in the Springfield, MA area and at the Lesco dealer in Worcester, MA.

I actually got a ton of it for my 180g but after trying it in the 46g bow, I didn't like it too much. It grows plants well and has a great coloration, but it's too light to keep the plants down. HC just floats away after a few days.


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## Urkevitz

I ordered it online twice, and picked it up locally. I think you are better off never calling the store, they tried to talk me into taking regular soilmaster that they had in stock. 

The second time I ordered I put my cell number and "soilmaster select charcoal ONLY" in the comment box. A week later they had a single bag packed in a cardboard box waiting for me. I left the box and packaging in the store and walked out with bag of soilmaster.


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## Jimbo205

> I ordered online and chose local pickup. The only communication I had with the store manager was when he called to let me know it came it.





> I ordered it online twice, and picked it up locally. I think you are better off never calling the store, they tried to talk me into taking regular soilmaster that they had in stock.
> 
> The second time I ordered I put my cell number and "soilmaster select charcoal ONLY" in the comment box. A week later they had a single bag packed in a cardboard box waiting for me. I left the box and packaging in the store and walked out with bag of soilmaster.


How much did they add to the price of the Soilmaster Select Charcoal to have it shipped?


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## Urkevitz

There is no shipping cost if you pick it up at the store. Lesco gets a weekly delivery from their distributor, the soilmaster comes on the truck.


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## Jimbo205

> *There is no shipping cost if you pick it up at the store*. Lesco gets a weekly delivery from their distributor, the soilmaster comes on the truck.


This is very, very good to know.

I hope other members have such good success with this!


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## sarahbobarah

I spoke with a Lesco store manager the other day, and he was more than happy to order some for me... And by "some", I think he was going to order how ever many it took so I could buy my one or two bags. LOL....


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## yoink

Urkevitz said:


> There is no shipping cost if you pick it up at the store. Lesco gets a weekly delivery from their distributor, the soilmaster comes on the truck.


Same experience here, it was brought in with their weekly shipment. It took about a week to get in after I ordered it.


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## turbomkt

As MatPat has already done, I recommend you call OilDri directly to ask about the nearest reseller in YOUR area that carries Soilmaster Select. I was given a place in SoCal that carries it for about $13 a bag for select and less for regular Soilmaster.


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## Jimbo205

> I recommend you call OilDri directly to ask about the nearest reseller in YOUR area that carries Soilmaster Select.


 I have never heard of such a store in the Northeastern States.


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## Kelley

I had no trouble getting Soil Master Select in the charcoal color from Lesco in Rock Island, IL. The manager I spoke to on the phone was really helpful and I think got a big kick out of me using the stuff for my aquarium. He didn't charge me anything for shipping. I did have to drive an hour to Rock Island to pick it up, though!


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## turbomkt

Jim,
OilDri is the maker, not seller. Check their contact page.


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## SnakeIce

I checked their website to find the nearest Lesco with some in stock. The one in Utah is the closest one, but the nearest one that had some was in Northern California.

The way they made it sound when I talked to the one in Utah is that they would order it and it would be shipped not on thier truck but directly from their distributer to me. Extra distance= more shipping costs, so I just called a more local store that had some in stock. It came to about 30$ with shipping.

The employee in that store whom I talked to knew people bought it to use in fishtanks and had sold individual bags a number of times.


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## Jimbo205

> Jim,
> OilDri is the maker, not seller. Check their contact page.


 Oh my gosh, it's SPEEDY DRY! That's the stuff we used at the Hess Station 20 years ago to clean up the gas and oil spills with! It's cat litter! (ha, ha, ha) That's good. Well, from what Diana Walstad says about soil, clay and cation exchange capacity; that makes sense.

Mike, that is one great PowerPoint Presentation! GREAT STUFF!


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## bigdaddytank

I had the same problem, my local Lesco's had regular soilmaster but not select. I even talked to the manager of one store and he said they would order it if I wanted a pallet. I got online Friday and ordered 4 bags for myself and my cousin . I going to call tomorrow and see if they have a status on it.


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## Jimbo205

bigdaddytank, I wish you success with this. 

If you hit any snags, please follow the advice in Urkevitz's post in this thread. 

I am hoping we have found a more successful solution for hobbyists trying to getting the product they want and need. :happy:


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## C_perugiae

The first time I ordered it (got six bags) I did have a few problems getting the right stuff in... first time, it was red instead of charcoal (pretty dang ugly if you ask me) and the guy said he couldn't get anything else.  However, with an email to the company directly, they figured it out well enough and got me my bags. I ordered 19 last June, for my LFS, and we still have 9 left, so if there's anyone within driving distance of Lansing, let me know and I can save one for you. We also sell it in smaller quantities, if anyone doesn't want an entire 50 lb bag.

All I offer, for advice, is to be persistent. If your local Lesco is having problems finding it, email or call the company directly. They may not be able to do much unless the main office helps them get the right stuff. My local Lesco had no idea what it was or how to get it until we called the company while I was at the store.


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## bigdaddytank

I had ordered it from the lesco online and had it shipped to the local lesco. I never saw charge for it on my credit card so I signed in to the lesco site with my account info and the order doesnt show up. I had to email Lesco to find out what happened and am waiting to here back from them. I may call the company when I get home from work today.


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## Aquaseafoam

I just ordered a bag this month through Lesco's website. It arrived at the store 3 days later!
Pretty cool, eh?
BTW... I had gone in a few months prior to see if they had any and they didn't. They also made it out like they couldn't order it either. 
Again.. the guy got a kick out of hearing what it was for.


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## Jimbo205

It sounds like ordering online on the Lesco website is working out better for more members. Good. 

Bigdaddytank, I hope everything works out with your order. 

It is nice to see an option that works for members when their local Lesco is not able to help them.


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## bigdaddytank

Thanks Jimbo, it worked great. Tuesday my local Lesco called and said they had an order with my name on it and I went Wednesday and picked up four 50 pound bags of the Select Charcoal. This is the best way to go if anyone is having similar issues like I did. Of course in the time I was waiting I came across a bag of Turface Pro at another local nursery so I'm set for substrates now.


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## Jimbo205

> Thanks Jimbo, it worked great. Tuesday my local Lesco called and said they had an order with my name on it and I went Wednesday and picked up four 50 pound bags of the Select Charcoal. This is the best way to go if anyone is having similar issues like I did. Of course in the time I was waiting I came across a bag of Turface Pro at another local nursery so I'm set for substrates now.


 Great!

Can we make if official now? This works!

I suppose this is a yes/no question. So, I suppose we should actually wait to see if everyone else says yes or no.

I look forward to more successful stories from fellow members!


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## hooha

Dont call the company HQ directly yourself though. Before I finally got it locally I tried calling the closest Lesco (see my previous "Cleveland Indians" post) and then the HQ. I got a clueless lady who took 20 minutes to find out that I'd have to have it shipped to my door with some outrageous amount for shipping costs.

It would have been intersting to see if I ordered it online for pickup at that Lesco that blew me off what the manager would have said when I picked it up.


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## Jimbo205

> It would have been intersting to see if I ordered it online for pickup at that Lesco that blew me off what the manager would have said when I picked it up.


 Give it a shot! I would love to hear the rest of the story! It worked for Urekevitz.


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## hooha

lol, I may down the line but right now I have 4-6 extra bags of SMS in my garage waiting to be used


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## Jeff232

I ordered 3 bags from my local supplier, they did this without question, However it was back ordered for over 2 weeks but i had to build my DIY canopy and stain the furniture so waiting was no big deal. It was almost 16 dollars a bag which is the price listed on the website...not having to pay shipping is well worth the wait.


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## LastAndroid

Last monday I went to the local Lesco and got a bag of red SMS. I sort of wanted charcoal, but I decided to check out the store first before ordering online.
The guy there was very nice and knowledgeable. They were slowing down for the season and didn't have much left, but since I had gone all the way there he gave me one of the bags from a pile for another customer, how could I refuse . He also said the same thing about the charcoal being only for the Cleveland Indians.
While he had never heard of it being used in aquariums he said it was originally made for green houses or something so it's sometimes used for plants and that a college (I think UNH) orders it from him for that purpose.

I'm happy with the red as it looks good once it's wet, however next time I'm going to try to get charcoal via online.


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## mbaldyga

I ordered online about a week ago and today I get a call from the manager to come in and pick it up. This order was for one Bag.


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## jaidexl

Well, Jimbo, I just ordered a bag of charcoal from the site and we'll see how smooth it goes, so far so good. Turns out there's tons of Lescos in FL and one five miles away from me, figures since FL is a golf mecca. I can't wait for the store clerk to ask me what it's for, lol.


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## humper

I went into my local lesco and they had had another person come in requesting soilmaster select for their aquarium. They just tagged my order onto his. I got 3 bags and it only took 3 days to come in. They also sold it to me at $9 a bag by saying that I owned a local landscaping business. These guys were great to work with and it was a very easy process.


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## Muirner

I called all my local Lesco's around me (3 in total) and none had charcoal available. They would be more then willing to transfer a charcoal bag from somewhere else but it'd take a few days. So i decided that I'd purchase a bag of the red that they had handy, and on my way I went. $16 dollars. Not bad, Now i just have to wash it and it's freaking cold out.


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## Jimbo205

Yes, it is very, very, very, very cold now. Brrr.....

I am so glad that things are working out so well for you all ordering the SoilMaster Select. I know that so many hobbyists really like this as a substrate! I hope this encourages others to do the same.

Now, if you want to wash it - that is up to you. I just wanted to point out that some hobbyists find that either they do not have to, or they do not want to. It is an option.

And some hobbyists find it very beneficial to put 1 1/2 inches of soil underneath 1 1/2 inches of SoilMaster Select to help their plants.

Other hobbyists are not comfortable with that idea yet. It is a leap of faith. (To put soil in your tank.)

My first experiment with it did not work. My others have worked out very well.

Let us know what works for you.

And if you do have a digital camera and an account on Free Image and Video Hosting - Photo Image Hosting Site : Photobucket.com , please post photos of your new tanks with your new substrate in them. Or links to photos of them. 
That would be fun to see! hoto:

:smile:


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## Muirner

I have a question. I have prochoice infield conditioner. When i called he said it was soil master select. Does this sound correct?


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## Mud Pie Mama

Muirner said:


> I have a question. I have prochoice infield conditioner. When i called he said it was soil master select. Does this sound correct?


Yes, I have a bag right here. Near the top there's a big circle that states: "Pro's Choice - Sports Fields Products". Underneath this are the words: "Soilmaster(R)* Select - Premium Infield Conditioner & Topdressing".

[*(R) registered/trademarked name]


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## turbomkt

And if you're going to put soil under it, make sure to check out the El Natural section of the site and consider buying Diana Walstad's book.


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## Muirner

See mine dosent say that it is soilmaster select anywhere. And honestly i'm afraid that it may be infield conditioner. Mine says on the front "Pro Choice, sports field products" (no Soilmaster Select under this like on yours momma) Then on the bottom it says "Infield conditioner for better dainage and less compaction." This last statement makes me think i did get the right thing. Any opinion? 

Or maybe i should ask, in your personal experience when you asked for soilmaster select, will LESCO give you the wrong product? Do they even carry a different type of "soilmaster" that i should be worried about getting? or just wash away?


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## Kelley

they may have mistakenly sold you non-select soilmaster. How big are the grains? The select is about 3mm. 

The other kind will work. It just will not be as easy to plant.


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## LastAndroid

Here's a picture of some SMS red in my tank (it's almost 3 weeks old). The color is off a little, but is as close as I can get it for now.









Muirner - Is this the bag they sold you?








I think it's just a new bag or Lesco repackaged it. If you look at Oildri's soilmaster site Oildri's address is the same one that is on the back and as other's have said the old soilmaster bag's say Prochoice on them as well.


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## turbomkt

Looks like a new bag. The bag I got a while ago was a paper bag.


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## Muirner

Mine dosent say select on it at all. And i dont know the granual size. I dont want to open it if it's the wrong thing.


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## Jimbo205

Pro's Choice : Infield Conditioners : Turf Maintenance : Groundskeeper Products : Drying Agents

It sounds like you have the correct product.

If you do have time, click on this link that Turbomkt provided earlier in the thread. It is very good! At one point when I had the time, I followed the link and watched the PowerPoint Presentation called - Know Your Soil Conditioners. Wow! Amazingly done and made quite an impression on me regarding its use.

If you do get to explore the link for this product, please let us know your reactions and impressions from what you get to see.


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## Kelley

I'm not sure that is the "select" kind. It comes in red (east to find), charcoal (harder to find) and green (eeewww! who wants it in a tank?!). It should probably say 'select' on the bag.


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## Muirner

I dont think that this is the "select" product either, but i think it's about the same thing. It's made of clay (it does say that on the bottom). I dont know, maybe i should use it? Maybe?? Ideas?


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## Kelley

You certainly could use it. It's the same composition. If you plan to keep finer plants like Glosso or HC, it will be more difficult to plant in and keep them rooted. 

It all depends on what you want.


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## Muirner

i will try to wash it a lot to get lots of the little stuff out... I'm thinking of HC because it grows lush and thick but not to tall you know? Unless there are other ground covers that are suggested?


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## Muirner

I have finished washing about 40lbs of the bag out. I have them in buckets with standing water in them, in the basement to stay warm and not freeze. After a few days i hope it will be filled at least partly with water. I washed it for about an hour for the total 40lbs... not to bad if you ask me. I like the color and the size of it. 

What about adding some Prime to this water? Would you recommend this?


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## Kelley

Probably not a bad idea to add the prime. You will certainly want to add it to the tank before fish or plants go in there.


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## Muirner

You know to be honest, i really dont think all the dust can be washed out. I washed my SMS very well, and after putting probably a total of 3-5 gallons of water in, my water is cloudy. Now i wont be putting much more in because this is about 1/2" of water and will be easier to plant HC in this way. Maybe it'll get another gallon.


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## orlando

Has anyone tried aquariumplants.com substrate?I wa sable to buy two 5 gallon buckets online. Its cheaper than anything Ive found anywhere.


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## Jimbo205

Orlando, what is the aquariumplants.com substrate like? Have you tried it?

Muirner, from what I have learned about CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) the small particles or 'dust' may actually be beneficial. Of course, there is also the matter of personal taste. 

If you keep the level of water close to the SoilMaster Select (within a couple of inches or less) for the first day or two, you may find that it settles quicker. I also found that the number of air bubbles captured by the SMS created a 'fizz' sound when I added water. And depending on your set up, you may want to or not 'stir up' some of the SMS to release some of the air bubbles. There are some very nice photo journals that some members have created that show what they have done step by step. 

I have heard and seen from photos that when SMS is stirred up and there is a large amount or a tank full of water, that it can be frustrating and time consuming to wait for it to clear up. 

Let us know how it goes and what works for you. 

Jim


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## orlando

Jimbo,
Well I ve got two 33 lbs buckets for my 150..It seems to bring my PH down quite a bit. Out of the tap its about 7.7. With this its about 5.8. So Ive
gone ahead and bought some Florida crushed coral to bring it back to normal.
Probably going to have to reset my ph monitor so my co2 will turn on..Im not sure about SMS. But from what I can see it looks the same except color maybe? I ll keep you posted


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## Jimbo205

Let us know more how the pH works out with your aquariumplants.com substrate. 

I remember my SMS dropping my pH for the first 3 weeks while it sucked all the cations+ out of the water. Cation Exchange Capacity is an amazing thing. I just re-read Diana Walstad's book again 2 nights ago for about 6 hours and just loved her part about CEC and what happens right at the substrate surface and the 'film' there and its function. Biology and MicroBiology is just completely amazing to me. Wow! What a concept. Fantastic book. I have read it at least 10 times in the last year. At least.

Orlando, do seashells affect water hardness the same way as Dolomite or crushed coral? I ask because I have some seashells from last summer at the beach that I have been afraid to put into a tank because I didn't know what it would do. Meanwhile I have a goal of finding Dolomite in the garden store just to say that I finally know what it is.


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## feistyfish

just to reassure myself that im getting the right stuff, soilmaster select charcoal is item number 083365 on the lesco website right?

also for those who use SMS, do you ever do any gravel cleaning or is it so light that it'll get sucked right up with the water and cause a dust storm?

2 bags is about right for a 55 gallon and 60 gallon tank together right? i don't think 1 bag will be enough for both tanks.


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## Muirner

Alan - I washed about 40lbs of it (most of one bag) for my 55 gal, and i still have a 20LB kitty litter container full of SMS still in water. I think you should be ok with 1 bag. I used a 5 gallon bucket to do my 55 gallon. But that's 1" deep front to back, no terracing. Also your item number is right on, just make sure to call a few days in advance to make sure they have it in stock for you. My local Lescos (3 of them) would have had to transfer a bag for me. I didnt wait i just got the red.


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## feistyfish

thanks! 

is it recommended to keep such a small layer of it cause usually I keep about a 3" layer of substrate. Plus I need enough to cover one 55 gallon tank and one 60 gallon. So the 50lbs is only enough for a little over 1" of substrate for a 55 gallon?

So far I've called twice and initially they didn't want to transfer it over and forgot to call me back to inform me. I called again today and asked them to transfer it over with their next shipment and they said that they'll call again. I'm keeping my hopes up. Worst comes to worst, I'll try the online method.


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## Jonesy

feistyfish said:


> also for those who use SMS, do you ever do any gravel cleaning or is it so light that it'll get sucked right up with the water and cause a dust storm?


I regularly do a gravel cleaning. The SMS is very light and you do have to be careful that it doesn't get sucked up (I just pinch the hose to control flow rate or use a low flow gravel vac). After the SMS has been in use for a while dust ceases to be a problem when you disturb it (I think someone mentioned the formation of a biofilm? plays a role in keeping dust "locked" up?).


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## Muirner

I only used about 15-20lbs of it to cover 1" in my tank, this of course was because i had 1" of soil under the SMS.


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## yoink

feistyfish said:


> thanks!
> 
> is it recommended to keep such a small layer of it cause usually I keep about a 3" layer of substrate. Plus I need enough to cover one 55 gallon tank and one 60 gallon. So the 50lbs is only enough for a little over 1" of substrate for a 55 gallon?


I used one bag to cover a footprint of 48"x18" to an average depth of 3". I think you would need a bag and a half for good coverage on both tanks.


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## feistyfish

great info. thanks! i hope my local lesco can come through. otherwise i may have to negotiate with target specialty products to get it.


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## jaidexl

jaidexl said:


> Well, Jimbo, I just ordered a bag of charcoal from the site and we'll see how smooth it goes, so far so good. Turns out there's tons of Lescos in FL and one five miles away from me, figures since FL is a golf mecca. I can't wait for the store clerk to ask me what it's for, lol.


Well, I let a few weeks go by with no response by phone or email, checked the local stock through the site and saw my one 50lb bag of SMS charcoal. I gave them a call and confirmed it was mine and picked it up today. They never charged my card through the site but the clerk charged me for it today, I'll have to watch my credit statements. The clerk didn't have enough of a sense of humor to laugh at my purpose for buying it, but he did wonder why they sent him only one unit. The bag is huge, it's very light so it takes a big bag to equal 50lbs, about the size of an 80lb bag of wall float stucco or concrete, should be plenty for my 65gl.


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## Jimbo205

Post a photo hoto: when you are done. I would love to see it. 

Jim


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## Muirner

I saw a photo that had SMS charcoal in it, and the granuals seemed bigger. Can you confirm or deny this?


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## yoink

Muirner said:


> I saw a photo that had SMS charcoal in it, and the granuals seemed bigger. Can you confirm or deny this?


Bigger than what?


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## feistyfish

Does anybody have the product number that oildri/pro's choice issues for the SS charcoal color. Target Specialty Products is willing to work with me to order it, just need the number. It should resemble the format of A##### (as in an A followed with 5 numbers). Thank you.


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## Jimbo205

http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083365

I am not sure if this is what you were looking for but I hope it helps.

Jim


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## jaidexl

feistyfish said:


> Does anybody have the product number that oildri/pro's choice issues for the SS charcoal color. Target Specialty Products is willing to work with me to order it, just need the number. It should resemble the format of A##### (as in an A followed with 5 numbers). Thank you.


I checked my bag and there are no numbers that start with A. The item number that Jimbo linked is the only one I can find.



Muirner said:


> I saw a photo that had SMS charcoal in it, and the granuals seemed bigger. Can you confirm or deny this?


This is just about scale, maybe a tad large...


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## feistyfish

ok thanks. thats the only number i had had too. ill try again on monday.


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## Muirner

yoink said:


> Bigger than what?


The red SMS I use, but jaidexl's picture clearly shows its not. Sorry for the confusion


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## jaidexl

Yeah, from what I understand, the charcoal is just fired longer or hotter to get the dark coloring, you can see in the sample pic above that there are still some red chips that didn't recieve enough heat to change. So, essentially, they're the same product.


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## Gary Greguire

I ordered mine online. Had someone pick it up for me. I got a call a week later for my CC experation date for some reason the online didn't bill my card, The manager was great. I put it in a 180 and started planting I realy like how easy it is to plant in I had florite before, I saved it and used it as a base layer because it was mixed with laterite.


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## feistyfish

just fyi, oildri's item number for SMS charcoal is A43403.

edit*** target specialty products is unable to order SMS charcoal unless its in a pallet of 40.

ill try ordering on lesco's website and go from there or else i have no options.


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## turbomkt

Alan,
Contact OilDri's sales guy directly and find out if he's willing to work with Target Specialty and include it in another order. There's got to be a way.

I wish I had some place to store 38 bags


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## feistyfish

yah that's the next step. i went ahead and ordered 2 bags online to have them ship it to the san diego lesco. if that still doesn't work in the next week or so, then my last resort will be to contact oil-dri again and maybe have them include it in a shipment like you said or try out the SMS brown.


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## Jimbo205

Urkevitz said in a much earlier post that he got a better response when he did NOT talk with the local lesco, but ONLY ordered online and requested ONLY what he wanted. 

But let us know what works for you. 
I am glad to see more hobbyists having success getting this substrate. 

Happy Hobbyists = Happy Plants = Happy Fish & Creatures


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## feistyfish

So my order came in earlier this week and I picked it up. I can vouch now that ONLINE works great, even when the local lesco doesn't cooperate. if you buy it online, just select shipping option: pick up from local lesco, and there won't be any additional charge besides the 16$ per 50lb bag. 

online = success!


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## turbomkt

One bag will probably be enough for your whole 55g.


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## feistyfish

thanks mike. yah im also redoing the 60 sometime next week haha.


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## Jimbo205

> So my order came in earlier this week and I picked it up. I can vouch now that ONLINE works great, even when the local lesco doesn't cooperate. if you buy it online, just select shipping option: pick up from local lesco, and there won't be any additional charge besides the 16$ per 50lb bag.
> 
> online = success!
> __________________
> -- Alan


I believe this is at least the 2nd person to have found firm success with this method.

Almost makes me want to create a poll. (I suck at creating those.)

How do you prefer to get your SMS from Lesco?

1. In person - talk to the locals. (And try to explain...)

2. Just do the deed online. And pay however.

Are there enough people that use or order SMS to make this worthwhile?


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## yoink

I have had confirmed success with the online method as well. Last time I went to lesco they had charcoal in stock, but I bought the last bag. The woman working was very helpful and said she would probably order another pallet of the stuff because it is selling. The other guy working jokingly said "We don't sell to aquarium people." when I walked in the door.


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## Jimbo205

> The other guy working jokingly said "We don't sell to aquarium people." when I walked in the door.


 Joking in a good way or a bad way? I assume because you used the online method it was because you felt you had to. Or am I guessing wrong?

Yoink, do you think it would be worth a poll or no?

Maybe something simpler like:

Which has been more successful for you? How do you prefer to order your substrates:

1. Online.
2. In person.

Yoink, tell me what you think?

I would like to hear others experiences and feedback as well. Thank you.


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## rhinoman

I tried to get Soilmaster select from the local Lesco today. They didn't have it but said they'd try to get it eventually. So I tried online. It works. Just order the stuff online and have it shipped to your local Lesco. No shipping fee! No wait! It'll be in Monday!


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## Jimbo205

Another success!


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## rhinoman

Didn't come in on monday but it did come in today.


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## Muirner

So i got a flyer in the mail from Lesco, and they gave me a great deal. If i bought 7 pallets of any fertalizer they would give me a *free spreader* Just a note :lol:


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## jazzlvr123

I was looking for an affordable substrate and im in california so i just called the lesco location in sacramento and they ordered 2 more bags for me for free no questions asked, and i supposed to pick them up this coming wednesday


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## yoink

Jimbo205 said:


> Joking in a good way or a bad way? I assume because you used the online method it was because you felt you had to. Or am I guessing wrong?
> 
> Yoink, do you think it would be worth a poll or no?
> 
> Maybe something simpler like:
> 
> Which has been more successful for you? How do you prefer to order your substrates:
> 
> 1. Online.
> 2. In person.
> 
> Yoink, tell me what you think?
> 
> I would like to hear others experiences and feedback as well. Thank you.


He was joking in a good way. He recognized me from last time I purchased a bag. I prefer to just pick it up if they have it in stock, otherwise I would just order it online for in-store pick up.


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## Jimbo205

I have not been to my local Lesco in a very long time. 
When I go to my local glass shop to have them measure my tank for my glass top, they are very helpful. The lady at the front desk had done the same thing for her tank. The guy at the store that measured it from what I saw did a great job. It will fit 'inside' the top instead of resting 'on top' which is nice. I know that if I just took the measurements myself it would not come out the same. But I will have to wait until I actually see it. 

It is nice to know that some people have had better experiences with the Soil Master Select and Lesco. 

Always good to know.


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## simplefin

just a quick question if I may?
I live in Washington state, and I dont have a Lesco anywhere near me. is there a a comparable product that I can look for out where I live?
I tried to look online for retailers that sell Soilmaster Select in my area, but no luck =/


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## MatPat

Try searching for Turface Pro League instead of Soilmaster Select. Turface products seem to be more available on the west coast.


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## Jimbo205

simplefin, when you go to their website (earlier in this thread) and type in your zip code; what does it say?


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## simplefin

closest one is in
1010 WINDING CREEK WAY
ROSEVILLE, CA

looks to be near Sacramento. which is 762.98 miles away  
rofl, maybe ill try Schultz aquatic soil. not thrilled about the color, but you work with what your given:-D


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## Jimbo205

1. Is there anything on the Lesco Website about shipping? (I forgot).

2. Do you have a Little League / Baseball / Softball Club in your area? 

Do NOT tell them what you need it for, but ask about who their supplier is for Turface Pro League. 

Do NOT tell them WHAT you are using it for until you already have it in the back of your car or truck. 
Life will just be easier for you that way. :smile:

Let us know how it works for you.


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## simplefin

i went to the turface site, and looked for a retailer near me. it pointed me in the direction of a john deer landscaper. ill call them tomorrow to verify that they carry it, and the price :-D 
before i call, is there a certain one i should look for? or is Turface Pro League the actual product?


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## Jimbo205

Once you have seen and handled Schultz aquatic soil and Soil Master Select, you can pretty much tell it's the same material. I hope that is helpful.


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## Diana K

Local Lesco (no. CA) no longer carrying SMS, switching to Turface. 
Check Lescos for a great deal on SMS. 
(I picked up 6 bags @ $9.79 ea, reg price around $16.00)
If your local store was friendly at all, call 'em to see what is in stock. Web site should also show what is in stock, but is not always accurate. 

I made my first purchace of SMS over a year ago, and the guys in the store were friendly and understanding. I initiated the deal on line because they had none showing in stock. As it turned out they actually did have a couple or so bags. I live so close they were going to drop it off at my house at no charge on their way home.  
They had sold to Aquarium people before and had no problem understanding that 1 or 2 bags was a lot. (I bought 2 bags the first time)

One bag, 2" deep covered:
45 gallon (15" x 4')
29 gallon (12" x 30") with a little sand in front.
29 gallon (12" x 30") no sand in front.
20 long (12" x 30")
34 gallon hex (ca 20" diameter- but not as deep- ran out)

Next bag did another 45 gallon, and is less than half used. I filled this tank in this order:
Left 1" of old, mulm water in the tank. 
Poured in SMS dry (no rinsing), from a container held low in the tank for the least dust. 
Added just enough water to cover the SMS, barely. 
Planted, misting the plants occasionally.
Filled the tank using a large sheet of plastic so the water did not hit the SMS directly, but seeped in gently over the edge of the plastic. 

The tank was lightly cloudy at the bottom (about 3" of the water closest to the substrate) for 24 hours, and I could tell there was a little mistiness for another 24 hours. After than the tank was quite clear. 
When I do a water change I am not careful to add water slowly, and there is a hint of cloudiness that goes away in less than a day. 
When I move or add plants the local spot clouds for a few minutes.

Note about the tank with sand in front: Sand is heavier than SMS and gently drifts under the SMS, eventually disappearing. Next time I am going to try some expanding foam (Black-Pond waterfall stuff) to 'mortar' some rocks together to make a better retaining wall.

Note about gravel vacuuming the stuff: Keep your hand wrapped around the outlet tubing, ready to pinch it off and drop the SMS. It is rather lightweight, and goes up the main GV tube very easily. 

This stuff steals all the KH out of the water, dropping the pH. 
Tap: KH 5 degrees, pH 7.5 to over 8 (Water company adds something, sometimes- KH is steady, year round)
Tank: KH 0 degrees, pH 6.0 or 6.2 (Bottoms out the pH test)

Adding 1 teaspoon baking soda to a 29 gallon tank raises the KH to 2 and the pH to 6.6, but lasts for only a few days. 
I do not have this sort of issue with any other tank.


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## spypet

Diana, thanks for posting all that.
you inspired me to finally dump 3"
SMS into my shrimp tank without
rinsing it. the first hour or so was
scary, but it's clearing up nicely.
It'll probably get dusty again once
I plant it tomorrow, but after that
is should stay pristine, without the
aggravation of all that pre rinsing.
oh, I did not remove the shrimp, I
simply let the SMS rain down on 
them a pint at a time, to give them
a chance to get out of the way,
and it seemed to work out fine.


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## Odiferous

Just bought a bag of SMS Charcoal from the Lesco in NW Houston. The website said he had it in stock, and when I called to ask for hours and if he had any problem selling just one bag, he asked if it was for an aquarium. He said that was the only reason he even had any of the charcoal in stock.  

He still has most of a pallet there, so if anyone in Houston needs it, I suspect he'd like to turn some inventory.


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## MatPat

Yes, thanks for the post Diana. It does not need to be rinsed as long as you fill the tank carefully. I still find it odd that the Soilmaster is playing with everyone's KH. It didn't seem to effect mine but maybe they have changed something in the manufacturing process since i first used it.


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## Diana K

I know it is the SMS. I have many tanks with all sorts of substrate, and the SMS tanks are the only ones with this 'problem'. 
I gotta switch my Discus tank over to SMS; I'll bet they would really like this softer water, lower pH!


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## myhui

I am new to this so I have a question ...

Are you all using SMS as the top layer of your substrate? So the plant roots get their nutrients from something else you put beneath the SMS?

If I use Eco-complete in the same fashion as you use SMS, as top layer of substrate, will that achieve a similar effect? I'm still unsure what to put underneath the Eco-complete. Just potting soil? If so, which kind?


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## JamesC

SMS and other calcined clays are known as hydrogen exchangers. This comes from the CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity). A hydrogen exchanger will exchange cations ie, Mg++, Ca++ with H+ ions and it's these H+ ions that react with the carbonates in the water reducing the KH.

If you want to get around this problem just soak your SMS or similar beforehand in a solution containing calcium carbonate and magnesium sulphate for a week. Rinse well and the KH will no longer drop when used in the tank. I've done this on two tanks now and it works a treat.

James


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## cwlodarczyk

Thanks James for that great info - this explains why the first time I set up a SMS tank with the very hard SoCal water I had at the time I saw a huge pH crash.


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## MatPat

myhui said:


> I am new to this so I have a question ...
> 
> Are you all using SMS as the top layer of your substrate? So the plant roots get their nutrients from something else you put beneath the SMS?
> 
> If I use Eco-complete in the same fashion as you use SMS, as top layer of substrate, will that achieve a similar effect? I'm still unsure what to put underneath the Eco-complete. Just potting soil? If so, which kind?


No need to put anything under either of the substrates except maybe a dusting of peat moss. You can see this thread for more info on setting up your substrate.


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## MatPat

JamesC said:


> SMS and other calcined clays are known as hydrogen exchangers. This comes from the CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity). A hydrogen exchanger will exchange cations ie, Mg++, Ca++ with H+ ions and it's these H+ ions that react with the carbonates in the water reducing the KH.
> 
> If you want to get around this problem just soak your SMS or similar beforehand in a solution containing calcium carbonate and magnesium sulphate for a week. Rinse well and the KH will no longer drop when used in the tank. I've done this on two tanks now and it works a treat.
> 
> James


I have heard this recently James but did not experience any drop in KH in my tank when I uses SMS. I have to wonder if it wasn't because I added KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4 to my initial 5g of fill water? I added enough to that first 5g to give me 10ppm, 2ppm, and 20ppm for the entire 75g tank. I overloaded the initial fill water hoping to see if the SMS would absorb it.

Isn't Flourite also a calcined clay substrate?


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## Diana K

In one tank I mixed 25% Eco Complete (not the high KH one) 75% SMS. The other tanks are pure SMS. 
I have been dosing ferts, and just checked the oldest SMS tank. 
KH 0, pH bottom of the test. 
It is still doing lowering the KH and pH in this tank.


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## MatPat

Makes me wonder if adding a large amount of NaHCO3 to the tank before adding plant or fish wouldn't be a good idea. That would, in theory, help alleviate any big drops in KH/pH that people seem to be having.


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## JamesC

Better off using calcium carbonate as the substrate would absorb the sodium in NaHCO3.

James


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## lauraleellbp

Has anyone tried this? I really considered using Turface for this tank I'm working on now, and probably will try it for the next tank I set up (can't beat the price!) so I'm very curious?


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## JamesC

Yes it works great. I've done it on two tanks now with KH remaining stable. I didn't use SMS though but a bonsai soil called Akadama which has very similar properties as SMS. With my first tank I just used the Akadama straight and the KH was dropping to virtually zero overnight. Took about two weeks of almost daily 80% water changes until the KH settled down. I then experimented with the pre-treating of the substrate. Think though I may have added too much in the way of calcium and magnesium as GH is slowing rising. Probably didn't rinse it well enough before I put it in the tank. KH has remained constant which was my aim.

TBH if I didn't have to put the fish and shrimp straight in the tank I wouldn't bother with the pre-treating. Just was a bit nervous how they'd take large KH swings.

If anyone's interested I've got a journal going over on the UKAPS forum - http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=860

James


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## lauraleellbp

Thanks for the link. Gorgeous tank!


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## Bugman

I see you use a frisby also. I hadn't seen another post with it. There is a local wings bar/resturante that uses a frisby for a kids plate. Had one sitting on the counter when I filled my first planted tank. Was going to use a plate and saw the frisby sitting there. Works great. The lip of the frisby really deflects the water flow to keep from disturbing the substrate. 

Here is another substrate Idea. I see you used a kitchen stainer to clean the substrate. I took a old 5 gallon bucket and drilled a couple of hundred holes in the bottom. Filled it up with my SMS and then poured water into the bucket. It turned out to be a excellent 5 gallon strainer. Just make sure you drill holes small enough to keep the substrate in the buket.

Your tank looks great!!


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## lauraleellbp

Talk about excellent suggestions- thanks!

So basically the long and short of Turface is that it may just be the substrate par excellance for Discus and other blackwater fish?


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## wolfen42

Just a general FYI for those who are thinking about trying out any Lesco products. If you are trying to order something during the "off season" where there aren't trucks going to the local store on a regular basis you may end up waiting quite a long time for your order.

The Lesco.com ordering site gives the impression that you are actually purchasing something and even threatens you with restocking fees if you don't pickup your item within 24 hours of the date you give them for pickup.

However, Lesco doesn't feel that they have any obligation to fill your order anywhere near that pickup date. 

At least they don't charge your credit card when you place the order. Your card doesn't get charged until you go to pick up the item.

So, if you place an order via Lesco.com, make sure you call the local store to make sure the lesco order has arrived before you drive over.

The guy answering the phone at my local store was really quite nice and helpful about the whole thing and has been contacting lesco to try to get my order to show up.


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## Jimbo205

turbomkt said:


> Jim,
> OilDri is the maker, not seller. Check their contact page.


Check out this link.

It still works! (Now how can you order it nowadays....?)


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## Jimbo205

Josh, it is 2:46 am. I finally found my answer (I think) about how to find SMS. 
This is why I stay off APC. It is SO ADDICTING !!!!
Time for bed. 

Okay, for the most up to date.. How did YOU get your Soil Master Select / TURFACE / PRO'S CHOICE SOIL ADDITIVE ??


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## bosmahe1

I called a local John Deere and they have Turface available

http://www.lesco.com/ProdCatalog/ProdCatalogNav.aspx?ItemNumber=088374


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