# Discus in the planted aquarium



## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well my local club just had thier spring auction yesterday. And now I have 2 beautiful little red turquoise Discus that i brought home to be the center piece fish for my Display 75 gallon tank.

they are just little guys, about 2 inches or so, I was able to get them for 34 bucks, one for 16, the other for 18.... even though they are small seemed like a darn good deal to me 

Anyway just wanted to see for anyone else keeping them in your planted tank what sort of special care is being done other than the usual. Im getting the temp up to around 80.... but im thinking 82 would probably be better... most plants should still be fine with the higher temp shouldnt they?

I also have always done 50-60 weekly WC and plan to keep it like that.... what about nitrates? is it really that important to keep them lower? I am talking about inorganic nitrate also, not organic from fish waste and such......

Foods are not a problem I have a wide range of frozen I use to feed other fish as I am into Killies also, so there is plenty of good stuff to go around, along with some live grindal worms, and daphina.....

any advice would be great! Thanks

Matt


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

I think you got the right idea...80-83F and you're good. 
you'd still be able to keep a lot of types of plants.

smaller discus needs more regular feeding[small meals] to prevent them from getting stunted. the lower temps[below 80F] reduce their metabolism hence appetite. they get sick easily too at those temps.

nitrates...ah... some say keep it at zero. then again these guys are not planted tank experts... i'd go in below the recommended 10ppm no3 for planted...around 5 perhaps. but this is probably academic unless you have a very accurate no3 tester. 
i think more for your dosing routiine as you can calculate how much inorganic nitrate to dose to get the 5ppm. [KNO3 i presume] 
the 50-60% weekly WC routine would reset the tank anyway.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Good deal thanks for the advice  I appriciate the info about feeding smaller discus more often in small amounts as I didnt know that. Im sure they will appriciate it also since that will get them the chance to have several different food each day 

Nitrates are one of those things I dont really know what to do about.... I know of some who say like you had mentioned should be at zero.... or around 5ppm or so if your running a planted tank.

I am not really all to comfortable running them that low, the tank has a good amount of light and CO2, and I have been trying to get to the bottom of some issues I have had with plant growth and do not want to bottom nitrates out..... I always have other thanks the Discus can be moved to if need be to keep water "clean" to thier likeing..... we will see I suppose... what would be signs to look for if they arnt likeing the water quality? Just basic things with most picky fish..... lack of activity, and hiding.... along with not eating?

Matt


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## lemuelpr (Mar 20, 2006)

*hi there*

Discus are a special thing. As soon they feel sick, dont like the water, pH or else, they will turn very dark, like a dark brown. You will notice, belive me. Also they will hide and will refuse to eat. As soon you notice this, check the water. I always check pH first, then everything else. The thing is that in order to make your Discus grow faster, its recommended to make frequent water changes, so you will have to keep monitoring the water parameters. Some Discus breeders I know change 50% of the water every other day, and it works. I dont recommend you to do that (I dont), but weekly is a good choice. The plants will help a lot keeping water quality. Good luck


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks a lot, I have been doing reading online trying to find as much info as i can. So far so good though, they are starting to color up a bit more, but they have been pretty shy these first few days. Didnt eat the first 2 days, but yesterday they started to eat a bit, and this afternoon when the lights came on and i got home from work I can see them getting a bit more brave lurking around new areas of the tank checking things out. But still a bit timid... im sure mostly to do with being moved around and just getting used to thier new home. I remeber once I had a blue ram that I had in the same tank at one time.... when i put him in i didnt see him for a good week and a half, I thought he was dead for sure.... but low and behold once he was used to his new home he swam around like he owned the place! however my breeding pair of angels had other Ideas! haha anyway tanks for the advice!

Matt


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

MrSanders said:


> Good deal thanks for the advice  I appriciate the info about feeding smaller discus more often in small amounts as I didnt know that. Im sure they will appriciate it also since that will get them the chance to have several different food each day
> 
> Nitrates are one of those things I dont really know what to do about.... I know of some who say like you had mentioned should be at zero.... or around 5ppm or so if your running a planted tank.
> 
> ...


Hi matt,

healthy discus are always looking for food. a little nitrate OD[10ppm] from experience never hurt the fellas as long as you don't keep it constant.
ammonia and nitrite are far worse.
they'd be gasping and choking etc as described here.
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ammoniapoison.htm

discus breeders have a very different setup altogether. most have zero filtration. after *every meal *it's 50-100%water change! some feed up to 7 times a day. this is why breeders can have jumbo 9" [head to peduncle] discus. not like you and me who's probably happy with a 5-6in discus. it's slavery to your fish really.

discus are camouflage creatures. they try to blend with surroundings. in planted or dark tank they will look dark as well. not black but darker than in a white bare tank.

if they turn black it's a sign they are not happy. the most dreaded one is the discus plague. it's a cocktail of external parasites, protozoan and bacterial. need a book on this one...haha. [if you have kept discus for more than a year you will be very knowledgeable on fish treatment!]

so far i've kept discus for 5 years and i've been lucky to have met a lot discus crazy friends. i have about 100 discus at home. not all in planted tanks! i'm using overflow drip tanks so i don't have to fuss about the waterchange routine except for the planted one. 
hope you will increase the count from two to five...they like company especially at that size.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks for the info I really appriciate it! And yes I would love to increase the count, I would like all the same color type though so i am trying to email the guy who brought them to my local auction... to see if he has more of the same type and size so I could possibly buy a few more to keep them company.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

If I'm not mistaken, I believe I read somewhere on Simply Discus that the alpha male releases hormones in the water to slow down the growth of his competitors and that's the reason daily waterchanges are a must. In addition of course to over-feeding, etc.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Hmmm thats intresting Raul-7, I'll have to go check that site out... I have read from several sources about keeping more than a few since when there are just a few the "alpha male" as you put it  tends to dominate the others when they are togeather in small numbers forcing them to hide a lot, and not get a fair chance at food.... this causing them to be smaller and weaker.... Would be intresting to find out more about hormones being part of this also.


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## holocron (May 29, 2005)

I'll second Raul-7. I have 6 discus in my tank, 2 of which are jouvies. I have a large red melon male and he is growing at a much faster rate then the others. I recently picked up a female and I can see him dominating even more now. I have 2 large discus now and 4 that have basically been stunted by the male. I do 50% changes weekly.


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## diablocanine (Jul 25, 2004)

...................


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## MoonFish (Feb 12, 2006)

I've been reading these threads for a few days. I can't glean everything out of them that I wish, yet. 

Do these fish die easily? How bad is hard water for them? Is it just like other fish where they would naturally be in softer water so they spawn more easily in it? Is there more? How much of the info about them is biased towards raising them rather than just keeping them? 

They can eat flake food? Will it sustain them or do you need more? How small are stunted ones? Are they just an annoyance or is there something worse that factors in with it? Are they as determined to have a pecking order as angels are? I mean will they pick and try to dominate until one is dead or tattered? How far does that go? 

Sorry that is a lot of questions. Josh.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Josh in short, I really dont have many answers for you.... But if you have ever seen these fish in thier prime you will easily know why they are worth the trouble..... And as far as thier food.... I doubt you will be able to get many discus to eat flakes.... if they do its probably only because they are very hungry, Most feed a blend of frozen... very meaty foods, along with other live type.

diablocanine, NO these fish arnt with killies, Killi fish really arnt for a community type tank.... some enjoy to keep them because they are pretty.... most who keep them keep them to breed and work with. which is my case. At any rate..... Feeding small amounts 5 times a day really isnt going to foul the water of a heavly planted 75 gallon tank any faster than doing twice daily large feedings..... 

But like I said at any rate the trouble is worth it in my opinion.....


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## diablocanine (Jul 25, 2004)

MrSanders said:


> Josh in short, I really dont have many answers for you.... But if you have ever seen these fish in thier prime you will easily know why they are worth the trouble..... And as far as thier food.... I doubt you will be able to get many discus to eat flakes.... if they do its probably only because they are very hungry, Most feed a blend of frozen... very meaty foods, along with other live type.
> 
> diablocanine, NO these fish arnt with killies, Killi fish really arnt for a community type tank.... some enjoy to keep them because they are pretty.... most who keep them keep them to breed and work with. which is my case. At any rate..... Feeding small amounts 5 times a day really isnt going to foul the water of a heavly planted 75 gallon tank any faster than doing twice daily large feedings.....
> 
> But like I said at any rate the trouble is worth it in my opinion.....


Wow, you appear upset, I deleted my post....DC


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

upset? not at all, maybe learn to take things with a grain of salt? I was simply saying that keeping water quality up isnt really going to be an issue, though I understand your concern.... but with all the shrimp and snails that come along with a planted tank food doesnt sit and rot on the bottom, it gets eaten by someone  Anyway take things how you want to.... but i wasnt upset at all


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

mr sanders you have the right mindset...and is absolutely right about flakes and meaty foods, wc, etc. 
asked a guru regarding nitrate levels and he said high nitrates suppress appetite. so not a life threatening problem like high ammonia/nitrites but not great either.



Moonfish said:


> Do these fish die easily? How bad is hard water for them? Is it just like other fish where they would naturally be in softer water so they spawn more easily in it? Is there more? How much of the info about them is biased towards raising them rather than just keeping them?
> 
> They can eat flake food? Will it sustain them or do you need more? How small are stunted ones? Are they just an annoyance or is there something worse that factors in with it? Are they as determined to have a pecking order as angels are? I mean will they pick and try to dominate until one is dead or tattered? How far does that go?


they don't die easily, not quite the sudden death like of a neon tetra.

i have friends keeping them in hard water and they look fine. in fact babies and juveniles need more minerals[Calcium etc] in the water for bone development.
just that they don't breed well in hard water. some don't want to breed at all in hard water. even if they do, the success rate is much lower due to eggs not getting fertilized. something about the sperm not being able to penetrate the into egg because of the higher osmotic pressure if i'm not mistaken.
this is in tandem with mother nature...rainy season...time to mate...drier season time for the juvies to grow.

stunted discus are those with big eyes in proportion to their body. at 1 year old they are still like 2.5". a typically well fed discus at 1 year can reach 6" head to peduncle[base of tail] not mine though...i have no time to do as many feedings and water changes like a breeder.

they have a pecking order but not as nasty like angels but there are cases where the weakest are starved to death because of bullying.
remove the weakest one and the next weakest in line becomes the target.
this can be solved with a bigger tank. when feeding- drop food in both opposite front ends so that there is no monopoly on the food.
discus fish are somewhat territorial... you can put twenty adults in a bare 75G and you rarely see the peck at each other.
but as soon as you put a piece of driftwood, then it's like 'it's mine! get outta my face' mentality kicks in.

the hormones suppression thing is theory/hypothesis IMO. if it stunts the younger fish then howcome the alpha male does not become stunted itself? 'er...it is immune to it's own hormones?'
unless substantiated by a fish scientist thru scientific studies that can be proven and repeated, i don't buy that.

hope i'm not too long winded. many books have been written but there's still lots to learn about this magnificent fish...


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thank you for your post Standoyo and for the useful/intresting information. Good to hear more about nitrate... I have had trouble getting these little guys to eat. They are intrested, and will take live food.... but generally arnt being all to aggressive to eat. I have been keeping an eye on them and plan to treat with medication if there is suspision for Hex, or worms or other problems but for right now they seem pretty alright.... 

I am dosing a bit heavy on nitrate, I think I will cut that back a good amount and see if that doesnt help out in bringing thier appetite around a bit. Thanks for the info!


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

you're welcome...

i'm from a group called the 'DXK' around kuala lumpur. discus crazy people. haha... just newly formed after a year or so of field trips to the farms around peninsular malaysia.

we've got quite a lot of insight mingling with our good neighbours singapore, indonesia and thailand. lots of books...current favourite is Andrew Soh's Discus the Naked Truth.

i've been on a quest to figure out discus and planted tanks. whether a great one is possible and so far some conclusions are undeniable after 4 years.
it is possible! but it's hard work. especially hard if you are keeping juveniles.
discus keeping is slavery say some...hahaha. we have to simulate slow moving river water in amazon...
imagine daily 60 gallon changes fro my 125g...and dosing for the plants. eargh! just for 10 juvies. pmdd is only option.

i keep about 90 others in drip overflow bare tanks[drip 250G a day]...just for them to grow out and pair up. otherwise i'd have 90% less discus.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Yea you bring up a good point.... After doing some reading on simplydiscus and seeing my fish not very intrested in food, along with labored breathing and dark (not cloudy at all) just dark black eyes.... I decided that something was up, weither it be a sickness that flared up from stress of being moved, or to high NO3 and PO4 along with not enough water change in my display tank.....

Needless to say I ordered some metro, prazipro and furan 2 and moved them to the basement into a quarantine tank to live until they get bigger. This way I can add salt to help them cope.... get the temp up to 92, and treat them with med. If need be, I am sort of suspecting something and went ahead and started a metro treatment for good measure.... hoping they will start to feel better and pig out the way they should, Im also doing 50% daily WC's.... so just keeping my fingers crossed now that they feel better and grow a bit so I can move them back to the planted tank


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

yes the tank and the fish has to be ready for each other from experience. because discus are poop machines as some here refer them as. meaning the tank's biofiltration has to be able to cope to minimize water changes.


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