# Is going planted right for me?



## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

So.. here is my situation. I started with freshwater tanks in the mid-late 80s, then saltwater in the 90s, did reefs for the past 10 years. and now I'm tired of all the expense and trouble of reef aquariums.. I just moved 3 months ago and sold off my livestock and felt raped on my resale value because i had to move rather quickly/unexpectedly. anyway. 

reasons I don't want to do reef anymore are

1) the Cost of light, live rock, the corals, the fish.. etc.
2) The time it takes to mix water for changes, monitoring, cleaning the glass daily.
3) ready for something new/easy


Right now I have a 75 gallon tank with a glas top and 2x 150w metal halide HQIs.. im guessing that lighting would be overkill for a planted tank.. I also have 2x fluval 304s that have been soaked in salt water for about 7 or 8 years... (one of them needs a couple new parts) so i might need to get a new canister filter.. the clownloaches and bala sharks would swim back and forth all day together in a school (really a shoal).. very nice looking.

from what I've been reading though monitering the co2 and the expense there will be for that might be something I don't want. and I'll probably need new lights, sounds like T5 is popular here, they've been gaining popularity in the reefs too. then I have to trim the plants and does algae grow so fast that i have to clean the glass on a daily basis as well?

I've just been reading some articles today on it and had a general idea about it before.. 

What are your thoughts on this? should I just stick with plastic/silk plants?

A friend of mine is recommending i just do anubias with a grow lux bulb, no co2 and call it good.. and I might do that.. Thanks for your help.

at the very least I'm definetly going back to freshwater.. looking at about 6-8 bala sharks, 8-12 clown loaches and a mess of neons.. i had that in a 55g with a pair of breeding angelfish and it looked very nice.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

Thats alot of fish for a 75g. Bala sharks get HUGE.


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

that's what everyone always tells me when they see my tanks.. they are "overstocked" but if they are healthy and egg bearers are breeding i don't see a problem with that.. like I had a reef tank with "too many fish" yet I was keeping "expert" fish longer than most other people do.. the biggest bala i've seen was about 8" but i've heard they get even bigger.. and in the wild the loaches get 12" but i haven't seen bigger than about 6" on those on tank raised, unless it was caught big from the wild. so its about 92" of fish there if i go with my minimum #s.. then the neons figure about 20-25 of those.. I suppose if I have them long enough and they get huge i'll just have to get a 220gal like i've been thinking about 


hehe.. I keep talking about keeping costs down then dream of bigger tanks... I just moved into a large house and was considering putting in a built in shark tank but decided it could actually hurt resale value and didn't want the cost/upkeep of it. Money isn't exactly an issue (it is sort of) but aquariums have just moved down on my list of what i want to spend my money on.. like i have a new mustang gt that really wants a supercharger and a couple of bathrooms to remodel.. and a bar in my entertaining room would be nice...


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## Tausendblatt (Sep 16, 2009)

If you want to keep costs down, maybe planted tanks aren't for you.

Allegedly, bala sharks like uprooting plants. One person claimed they make it a "team sport." Don't get too dismayed though. A ten gallon or so tank destined to be planted is another good start. Your initial group of fish before becoming interested in planted tanks can be a big setback. I had tinfoil barbs in one tank and goldfish in the other.

But, [planted tanks] are great enough to be for anyone! it is always good to start simple. Maybe just adding a java fern on a rock for a bit there, a bunch of fresh hornwort. Egeria, elodea, and limnophila sessiliflora are great starter plants too. Many swear by ludwigias. I haven't had much experience with those yet though. Another great plant to try with the big fishes is the onion plant. It grows a 6 inch radius of roots around itself that are very thick and strong. The anubias plan seems fine, but there are many kinds of plants that are easy. ... BUT With all that light you may want cut back a bit. No point in getting entire new light system. T5 is OK but metal Halide are fine too. I have T12 on one tank and T5 on another. The T12 are good enough for me. As for CO2, I am still sort of a naysayer. I don't think it is that big of a deal. There is no giant pressurized bottle of CO2 squirting micro bubbles into lakes or especially rivers. Although, many plants grow floating or emergent leaves... an adaptation that allows more gas exchange and less competition for light.

Algae usually grows about the same in my planted tanks as a non planted one, except you may notice some weird and terrifying varieties of it. Dark blue slime, brown tendrils creeping along the sand, green spots, branching hairs, teal webs of doom... Even green semi-solid clouds.

Its a learning experience like any sort of aquarium endeavour. A great place to go is aquariumfertilizer.com. Even after shipping, dry fertilizers are way cheaper. I have had good luck with buying from there. I am not affiliated with Aquariumfertilizer.com. Another thing to keep in mind is the substrate must be at very least one inch deep. 2 inches is better. Some say 3 inches or even 4 is best. Inert sand is fine, contrary to what you might hear from some. As for rainbow gravel, I haven't tried yet.

MOSS ISN'T as great as one might lead you to believe. Any fish bigger than 4 inches will send moss spiralling out of control by moving near it. It takes a month to get attached to something, and it takes eternity if it keeps getting uprooted. Even a string or rubber band won't always work if you have big fish. I got endless bits of moss in my filter. I was a naysayer to the claim that it "clogs filters." But now I am not saying neigh. Even so, Moss is one of the most beautiful and usefull plants. But it can be a real pain. Right now, it is a thorn in my side because it is attracting Blue green algae, a kind that forms navy blue balls of fuzz and slime on stuff. If you want to try moss, one of those coconut java moss shells, (or a rock or piece of driftwood) on aquabid or something would be best.(because it is already well rooted) Moss IS INDEED easy to grow, and it doesn't grow as slowly as people make it out to grow. Every so often, I find a surprise chunk floating alive and well in my 70 gallon, and I thought I removed it all. I found that when trimming moss, don't pull chunks out when it gets too thick. They were serious when they said to cut it like hair. Otherwise it gets patchy and stringy. I ruined a very nice rock with laziness. Willow moss and Java moss are almost the same in care, most terrestrial mosses can also grow for a while under water... but they might change form. The world famous aquascaper, Takeshi Amano, swears by Willow moss. He says it is his favourite moss.

I have only been in this since the start of summer 2009, and really, lots of people know more than me. This is a summary of what I have learned. I hope I was a help to you. We hope we've been clear and concise. Except maybe I wasn't concise...In the verses vice versus us, Vice versa: us versus vise!


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

GIR! good stuff.

I also have a 24g aquapod i could use if i wanted to start small.. so the 2x 150w HQI's wouldn't be too much?

I'm just curious how much extra investment it would take for me to do it.. keep in mind im used to fish that are $30-$150, 70-100lbs of live rock at $6/lb and corals anywhere from $15-$100+ salt at $15/50 gal bag.... so talking well over $1000 for me to set my reef back up like it was even though i have all the dry goods to get started...

then i compare that to.. about $100-150 for all the fish I want.. about $30 or so for gravel.. if i want a new filter about $150-200.. (atleast i will replace all the media in my current ones, so $30 for that) I have an RO/DI unit and a UV light.. co2? the plants themselves i dont think would be more than $80


so you say I can do it w/o added co2? but i will need fertilizer? anything else missing from my list?


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## Tausendblatt (Sep 16, 2009)

Your lights are a bit much. One of them would be good enough to start, unless it leaves a part of the tank in the dark. I don't know exactly what a metal halide light is shaped like.

Fertilizer seems mandatory to me. I don't fertilize my one tank because all it has is a single onion plant. But a real planted tank needs ferts.
'
As for price, it should cost at least one hundred dollars, if you include the extra substrates, and the umpteen species of plants that you want to buy.

CO2, I don't think is very useful. Some will argue, but you don't need it. You really don't. Also, flourish excel isn't that useful either. All it does that I noticed is cause all plants from the "tapegrass family" to melt.


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

good info.. yes the metal halide light is only good for about 24-30" and my aquarium is 48" long.. it really needs 2. . I think i'll start with some "easy" to care for ones and get some cheaper lighting (the metal halides are about $200 each and $65 per bulb) and the bulbs are nearing the end of their useful life.. they probably have 6 months left on 'em. atleast for reefs.

this is what they look like: http://www.current-usa.com/sunpod.html i have 2 24" ones

and i think you and i think a like.. going against what everyone says you "Need" like everyone says you must have a protein skimmer for a reef but i've gotten even better results from my corals w/o them..


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

how closely do you need to monitor water conditions? if you aren't using co2 im guessing you just do what i normally do.. start out testing daily and slowly moving out till no more testing is needed unless something looks/smells off.

ahh i just rememberd i have some power compact lights as well.. might work.. I can't remember the wattage though.. 65watt? hmmmz seems like it was more than that. i had it over a 29g reef i think it was more like 100 or 120 watt.. the only problem is it's a retrofit system so and i need to build a new enclosure for it new bulbs, and if i cant scrub the build up on it off I need a new reflector.

edit: just looked at them, they are 2x 65watt so 130 total is only 1.7watts per gallon but i think i can get away with that.


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

here we go... figure i'll share a couple blurry cell phone pics of what the tank looked like before i moved (and hadn't cleaned it for over a month)



















I just read one of the guides on creating focal points and the ratio of 1:1.6xxx i think i was following that rule w/o knowing it in that tank's landscaping.. 2 focal points slightly off center from each end of the tank..

in the top pic, it's maroon clown on top, below is a blackcap basslet, to the right is a pacific blue tang (or hippo tang), and just at the corner is the face of the leopard wrasse. I would have put a few more fish in there (overstocked it) if i hadn't moved


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

well I just did some more reading (and will continue to do so before i decide)

El Natural sounds fairly good.. and my be what i'm looking for.. 

so.. for lighting if i lift the MH light (the 150watt) up a couple feet in the middle it does get some decent light out to the ends of the tank (I can hang it from the ceiling) but the support in the middle is black plastic and casts a shadow.. so i think i need to get 2 20" lights..sounds like around 2 seperate 65 watt bulbs will do.. i'll have to read some more on the forums for recommendtions on that sort of stuff.. thanks for your help so far.. 

After thinking about it I suppose cost isn't that big of a factor, since i'm willing to spend around $500 to get it going.. which is still much less than a reef setup.

and hopefully i can get an El Natural style setup with very little maitenance going and it will be the best for me.. I love having fish but hated all the maintenace a beautiful aquarium took


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## mindnova (Jan 22, 2008)

I think you'll love planted, mine have been pretty maintenance free. Honestly some people just make it more work. With the large fish Co2 would be a waste and sharks are active and need good O2.

Just put down a good soil and mine are off and running. Something to think about on the Halides since you can suspend them, move them up and leave the top open. Some of the tanks I've seen growing out are just mind-blowing and a lot of stuff has some wild blooms up out of the water.

The best one I saw was a foot above the aquarium in cherry with a glass panel in front to see the plants. The glass panel had two gas rods like in a hatchback, may have been out of one.

I'll just say it, darn I envy you I always wanted to do one like it. *Champagne dreams on a piss-water budget*.

Good Luck, and post photos.


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## Tausendblatt (Sep 16, 2009)

Moving the lights up would solve the "too strong" AND the "only reach about 30 inches" problems. Even replacing both bulbs is cheaper than switching to T5s. WAY cheaper. And the results wouldn't be much different, if at all.

Soooo that is a good idea. Good luck with El naturel!


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

Mishri said:


> So.. here is my situation. I started with freshwater tanks in the mid-late 80s, then saltwater in the 90s, did reefs for the past 10 years. and now I'm tired of all the expense and trouble of reef aquariums..[...]
> 
> reasons I don't want to do reef anymore are
> 
> ...


I see a lot of conflicting information in this thread so far and feel it needs some clarification.

First of all, Planted Aquariums can be as easy or as difficult as you want to make them. It really depends on what your goals are in terms of the aquarium: Are you going for low maintenance only? Do you want to create an amazing aquascape no matter what the cost and maintenance? Do you want to grow difficult and colorful plants (not all "colorful" plants are difficult where "colorful" = not-green but many are)? These are questions you need to ask yourself and ultimately will determine what you need to purchase and how much maintenance you are willing to do.

A good way to determine what you want is to read some of the journals on this forum. There you can get an idea of what aquariums you like, what equipment they have and what people have to do to maintain them. Then you can ask yourself if you're willing to either do / purchase something similar to what they have done or look for planted aquariums that more suit your lifestyle.

Personally, if you have the money, I'd say make an investment in a good pressurized CO2 system. Even if you decide to only keep slow growing plants (like those anubias your friend mentions), a CO2 system will make them grow so much better than without it; A low(er) light system with CO2 and a nutrient rich substrate (like soil, mineralized soil or AquaSoil) would be a good ways to go, but that's just my opinion. You need to decide what's best for you. Good luck.


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, that is some good info there.

I was hoping to avoid a co2 system.... but i will think about it, luckily I think that is something I can add later if i so desire. I was looking at some 130 watt 48" lighting systems they are fairly cheap (like $100) so fairly low light and slow growers sounds like what is right for me.

I love the amazing aquascapes but it isn't right for the effort I want to put into.. My tank will likely be centered around the fish with the live plants just making it seem more natural (i realize there is nothing natural about the combo of bala sharks, neons and clown loaches though) 

So I think 130watt light.. some easy to care for plants that don't need much attention, some nice rocks/gravel and the soil should work.

is Aquasoil pretty good? I was reading about the generic non-fertalized soil but i haven't seen it at the stores, i'll have to check home depot.. maybe this weekend i'll get the tank setup (w/o the lighting, might put my 130 compact fluorescents on ther for now, but they are only 24" i think)


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm in favor of the "El Natural" style myself. If you put the lights on a timer, you can feed fish once a day, top up water every few weeks, and otherwise ignore it for--literally--months at a time. Very easy! (My tank has lights but no CO2, no filter, no fertilizers, etc. Definitely a "low maintenance" sort of setup.)

The 3 plants I find most useful (i.e. they take the least effort on my part) are:

Dwarf sag (sagittaria subulata) to cover the bottom. It's sort of grassy and spreads into clumps. It likes soil, but will settle for gravel. If it's really happy, you'll eventually have to pull some out--it announces when by growing taller. (Normally 3-4 inches high, shoots up to a foot or so when it feels crowded. At least, this is what it does in my tank.)

Java fern. It doesn't really grow roots, and seems to grow under any conditions. You can tie it down to rocks, driftwood, ceramic castles, etc., and after a while it'll attach itself. Since my tank is only 12" high, I can use java fern when I want a "tall" plant, without fear that it'll grow TOO tall. Since it doesn't grow roots, I can also move it easily from tank to tank (i.e. throw a handful in the quarantine tank with new fish to give them some hiding places, put it back in the main tank when the new fish are moved in there, etc.)

Floaters. I've got salvinia minima and duckweed floating on the top of the tank. Every few months, I scoop out some giant handfuls of floaters to dispose of--I do this when there's so many I have to push them aside to feed the fish. Again, it's easy to move to another tank at any time, and the little dangly roots are a good hiding place for my guppy fry.

I keep experimenting with other plants, but those three definitely top the list for me. I've tried stem plants, but I always get sick of pruning them. I've just gotten recently some crypts, so I can't yet say if I like them (ask me in about two years.) I've heard that sword plants get huge, so they're not a good fit in my tank. In your tank, they might be a very good choice: they can grow tall and maybe even out of the water too, and they are reputed to grow giant root systems (which would mean fish can't push them around.)

I hope you enjoy your tank!


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## MaD_Sci (Aug 14, 2009)

Why don't you just go low tech for now and work your way up. I've always found java ferns and anubias very appealing.


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## Mishri (Jan 9, 2010)

Well just wanted to let you guys know my lighting will be here tommorow. I ordered a 48" 130Watt 6700k Compact Flourescent fixture. ($100). also bought way too much expensive substrate. I couldn't find any plain soil.. everything even at home depot and ace hardware had chemicals and fertilizers in it. so I bought a bunch of ecocomplete and some other brand that looked similiar/good from PetCo. (one of 3 pet stores in town, 1 has nice fish but pricy and the little bit of drygoods they do have are way too expensive like $250 for a fluval 305, the other is old and tanks look nasty) so i think i have around 120lbs of substrate black. picked up all the lace rock the local store had. and installed a new fluval 305. I might add my old fluval 304 after a thorough cleaning if i think its necessary. Still planning on Bala sharks and clown loachs maybe 5-6 of each.. still heavily stocked but they are small for now. and a handful of neons. I'm also filling it with 100% Ro/Di water.. we have very hard water with a lot of phosphates/nitrates and I already owned the unit so might as well use it.. it's half full now.. takes almost an hour per gallon to make, the water is too cold to be efficient. I need Driftwood, nobody seems to cary it here.. any ideas on where to pick it up? I'll be making a new build thread soon with pictures.. took some already, i just need to upload them. Thanks for any help.suggestions. I'm planning on keeping it lower light/no co2 heavily stocked..


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