# Some so called hard to grow plants



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's some weeds growing in my tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Very pretty. What is immediately behind Tonina fluviatilis?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

That gaudy looking red weed?

Ludwigia pantanal.

There's (from L-> R)

Eriocaulon secetum
Tonia fluviatilis
Ludwigia pantanal
Tonia sp. "belem"
Ludwigia "cuba"

I have Rotala wallichi in here and other Eriocaulon's and a rug of HC.

I had a nice Ohko stone scape in here, but am tossing them out and going Dutch row in the arrangement.

I just got the pantanal and the Tonia "belem"
Last week and have over an inch of growth already, the L pantanal is a very nice plant.

Tonuia belem is much easier to grow than the T. fluvitalis which I get 2" a week out of and have 15 new 2-3" stems from last week. The issue is raising the new stems, they need more light than I can give them in the layout I want, so it's not much of a nursery tank.

Sopme plants are tolerant of that, but if these plants are shaded on the sides, they tend not to do as well.

The L. pantanal looked pretty sad looking and has in stores also, but it's really liven up well at home. It does well with fast growers also.

These plants do prefer soft water, but I've not found anything to substrate they require acid conditions, nor low pH's, nor ADA substrates. I've grown the hardest of these in plain old flourite.

I also got 2" a week out of the Tonia fluviatilis, but the water had a low KH, 1-3 degrees etc.

That seems to be the only real requirement.

ADA soil will certainly help though, and it's good for root growth vs flourite for the Tonia fluviatilis, but stem/leaf growth was the same. You can see visibly more roots on the Tonia with ADA soils. Most likely do to soft nature and NH4 content rather the acidic nature(we can add peat if we want to explore that issue), and you can add soil for macro's like NH4 etc.

But for most, simply getting the ADA soil does make things easier. 
I'm not impressed with the powersand though. It makes a mess when you replant/uproot.

The other large factor was switching to CO2 mist, although I did well with these species in FL + flourite without CO2 mist.

The mist really causes the growth spurts to increase in ther Tonia and leaf cone size diameter increases nearly 2 fold, a very marked difference.

This tank is simple EI dosing and CO2 mist, 8800K lights from hellolights(5.5 w/gal). There are 50 cardinals in here and 50 manao shrimp, and a few Royal Farowella babies.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## alexperez (Oct 8, 2004)

I really like the look of that L. pantanal. Does the crown only get that nice color or does the whole plant have it? I got to get me some.

I got to second that comment about the Powersand making a mess when
you replant/uproot. I'll never use it again.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Haha, someone that is actually honest in their assessment of Powersand

It mainly adds NO3, and little NH4, abouht the same amount of NH4 that is in the soil.

So why add the powersand if you can add KNO3 anyway? NO3 is not a cation and easily flows out of the substrate anyway.

Peat, well, I've been telling folks to add a dusting of that for years already, so then all we are left with is white large pumice that folks can get most anywhere and looks very ugly with the soil.

Anyone that has both the soil and PS knows this, all you have to do is uproot a few times.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Where did you get the Ludwiga Cuba?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, here's where you get your plants: local club plant swaps!

Tons of plants.

I can send you some cuba if you want some, crap grows 4-6"s a week and more, nearly a foot a week in another tank.

It's a weed.

But if you want access to many plants, forming a local club is a great idea.
Think globally, act locally.

The sfbaaps club is the oldest local club in the USA that I know of. We started with a great core group, but without new folks coming in, there little dynamic growth.

So the last couple of years I and the other folks in the club have really worked it and worked hard to get folks involved.

We started with 20 or so, maybe 8 remained active over the last 8 years etc, now we have well over 25-30 that are active, many new folks, and nearly 100 people in the club.

One person really took over as site administrator, that really helps.
Now we get together to swap and talk weeds and if someone wants a particular plant, we all have access to it and the local growing tips.

L cuba gets pretty red, in the larger tanks it stays a nice yellow color, sort of like a giant yellow red Eustralis.

It branches well in shorter tanks with more light and will creep over rocks etc to some degree.

BTW, the pantanal have gotten much larger, about 2/3 the size of the cuba and redder.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

L. Pantanal is a rocking plant, does not ship well, very sensative.
When condition's are right, it is sweet.
L. Cuba is a monster, get's huge very fast, branches well.

L. Pantanal


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

lovely reds, how do you bring the reds out so well? do you nitrogen limit them just before shooting pics?


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## Gumby (Aug 1, 2005)

Tom, what are the specs on that tank(lighting, CO2, micros/macros etc). 

My L. 'cuba' tops were red for about a week and now they've turned a dull orange color. I'd love to get the color you have. I envy your aquatic horticulture skills


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Side view: note upturned, erect leaves and their size, color etc.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Beautiful speciments!!

I wish I could get my NO3 up higher. I am dosing:
1/2tsp NO3
close to 1/4tsp PO4
1/2+tsp of K three times a week on a 75. 

If I add anymore NO3 I get GSA real bad. The tank is running on a controller at about 50ppm of CO2. Lighting is 220watt at 8 hours. What am I missing here?

KH is 4-5

I will test my tap again, but I believe my NO3 is 0.

Thanks

jB


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## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

Tom, I use the EI method for my 20 gallon but I cannot get my L. arcuata to turn red. It just sits there green and it grows relatively slow. Am I doing anything wrong?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Tom,

Looks like you are ironing out the "mist" approach!!! Still, most of us are still using the old method of reactors. How did you deal with GSA with your EI method while using reactors. I am 100% certain that my CO2 levels are way above 30ppm, closer to 50 or 60. Even with it this high, I cannot dose NO3 without running into severe problems with GSA. I am dosing half the recommended NO3 and almost double the PO4 to combat the GSA. In order to maintain high NO3 my PO4 has to be through the roof. What am i missing here? Did you ever have serious probs with GSA? I can keep in under control and it is almost none existent with my current dosing. However, when I try anything close to the recommended ratio of dosing, I get it really bad......grows in 3 days. I feel my plants are suffering, I am seeing stunting (which i assume is from lack of NO3). What am I not seeing here. Could it have something to do with my local water? I am at a loss here. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

jB


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## bpm2000 (Jul 5, 2005)

Nice plants! Did I hear you say you were tossing the ohko stones?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

*Physiology behind soft water plants?*



plantbrain said:


> These plants do prefer soft water,


What is the physiology behind this? Are they sensitive to Ca and Mg?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Little is known about this issue in aquatic plants. Some speculate availability of nutrients etc, most all water logged substrates tend to move to neutrality over time(weeks). I do not think that plays a large role.

Water column's relationship with KH seems to be a larger factor, and stomatal and cuticle functioning also play a role in uptake by the leaves, stem.

CO2 also seems to be an issue for many folks still. 
30ppm may fully staurate a certain species of Myriophyllum, but other plants that normally do not live all year in submersed conditions may not.

I use the CO2 mist for this reason.

But the issue is something I'll address more in the BarrReport in the coming months.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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