# Where is the balance?



## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

Hi y'all,

I have been trying to get the right balance of fertizers in my two tanks.:frusty: In the 55gal I dose daily: 3ml of SS, 6ml of PF, .6ml of TE and 1ml of MG. In the 100gal I dose daily: 5ml of SS, 11ml of PF, 1ml of TE and 1ml of MG.

Below you will find and attached Excel record of the reading I am getting. Not to sure about the Gh, the tetra tset is hard to read. Any suggestion on a moderate priced manufaturer for this test?

Please I need suggestion on how to reach a balance. Their has not been what I would call good growth and I still have some algae growth. Most of the Algae in the 100 gal is browm on the leaves of slow growing plants (Ludwigia inclinata Cuba, Tonina Belem and Marsilea Crenata) and on the glass Most of the Algae in the 55 gal has been on the glass and is what I call hard green spot, some black beard on the flourite grave.

Please help me reach a happy medium!

TIA,
Ray


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Back off the PO4 Free, add more SS.
Also, add more CO2.
Watch CO2 more closely.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*balance*

Tom,

Thanks for your reply,

>>>Back off the PO4 Free, add more SS.>>>

I assume you mean to do this in the 55gal? What about the CA2+? Should I try to increase this also. And how should I increase this? I thought of using my tap but the Phosphate is usually so high in my tap (reference excel file).

Should I use the same amout of SS + The amount of PF to increase? Are do you mean increase both quanities in form of SS?

>>>>Watch CO2 more closely.>>.

CO2 in the 55gal is DIY and the Eheim difusor I have is getting clogged with CO2 snot. Have have ordered some lime wood airstones per your preferences. Also need to order a bubble counter to cut back on the snot. Probably going to DIY bubble counter this weekend.

What do you think about the 100gals numbers?

TIA,
Ray


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

While you are focused on the ppm's and testing, I prefer to use environmental probes such as algae and /or plants to tell what is needed.

A mix of both is ideal.

If you use diffusers stones, clean them often, monthly is a good routine. They vary and can clog over time. 

You often end blaming a nutrient for a CO2 issue. 
If the PO4 is high, say 2ppm or so, and you have green spot algae, it's a typical low/variable CO2 issue.

If you also add the BBA on the gravel, then it becomes very clear it's more a CO2 issue.



I had high PO4 in my tap and had green spot, if I increased my CO2 to 30ppm or so, I never got green spot again. 
Then in some tanks that did not get water changes for extended peroids, the PO4 decreased, then green spot appeared. Many have reported similar observations over the years with GS and CO2/PO4. Many target 2-3ppm of PO4 for GSA. 

Ca++ build up is minor as many folks have found that it has a very wide effective range. I cannot say the same for Mg though. 

100gal: L cuba is anything but a slow growing plant. If it's growing slow and getting any sort of algae, then there is something else going on related to primary growth issues(CO2/NO3/K/PO4). Brown films are typically diatoms and otto cats are very good at control and often brown algae goes away after the first few weeks on it's own.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi
Your levels are all over the place. Do you use RO in any way? We need some information for start.

*Tap:*
GH
KH
Ca
Mg
NO3
PO4

*55 gall:*
GH
KH
Ca
Mg
NO3
PO4

*100 gall:*
GH
KH
Ca
Mg
NO3
PO4

Once we figure it out we won't need so much testing. You also do not need to test for NH3, NH4, nor NO2. You should build a simple bubble counter and a needle valve and let it run 24/7. Plants prefer stability.


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*where is the Balance*

Edward,

Yes I do use RO water sometimes. The test results you are requesting are included in the previously attached excel file. I am not sure what you are asking me with your list.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

This is in your Excel.

*Tap:*
GH	>20
KH	6
Ca	40
Mg
NO3
PO4	high

*55 gall:*
GH	0	5	15
KH	6
Ca	10
Mg
NO3	12.5
PO4	0.5	0.1

*100 gall:*
GH	8	15
KH	2	5	3
Ca	40	20	40
Mg
NO3	35	12.5	18
PO4	2	0.1	2.5


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*Where is the balance*

Edward,

Attached you will find a excel file that has the reading for today. What would you advise I do?

I change water once a week and use tap or RO with equilibrium. In the past I had used RO only due to the high Phosphate and Hard water levels in the tap water. A bit old school, when Phosphates was used as limiting factor for algae. As of late I have learn, what was thought 3 to 5 years ago has changed. Trying to reach do a better job as of late.

I would like to start from here and try your way but need guidiance on how to get it right. I am Chemically inert.  Science was never my strong suit. Please let me know what is needed for my 55 and 100gal tanks.

I greatly appreciate your help in getting these tanks on the right road.

TIA,
Rayrayer:


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi

*Tap:*
GH	>20
KH	6
Ca	40
Mg	>14
NO3	6
PO4	high

It will be difficult growing plants in this water. Can you use 100% RO? You can grow all the plants in just RO water.

*Here is the list:*
K2SO4
KNO3
KH2PO4
MgSO4
CaCl2
Baking soda
Test kits: NO3, PO4, pH, GH, Ca

Lighting period 10 hours
After water change dose CaCl2 to 20 - 30 ppm. Use the Fertilator.
Adjust CO2 valve to about 1 bubble per second. Run it into your filter intake. 
Use baking soda to keep pH at 5.5 - 6.5 after 24 hour stable CO2 flow.

Start dosing daily:
*55 gall:*
SS	3 ml
PF	6 ml
Mg	12 drops
TE	12 drops

*100 gall:*
SS	5 ml
PF	11 ml
Mg	24 drops
TE	24 drops

After one week test the aquariums for NO3, PO4 and pH. Do water change only if you overdose baking soda or CaCl2.

Edward


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

Edward and others,

TIA, read below

>>>>.Can you use 100% RO? >>>.
OK. Should I not used Equilibrium to recon the water with some hardness? What hardeness do you recommend? If you look at the top of my Excel sheet you will see my targets. Do these look OK?

>>>>Here is the list:
K2SO4
KNO3
KH2PO4
MgSO4
CaCl2
Baking soda
Test kits: NO3, PO4, pH, GH, Ca >>>>>>>

Got these from Greg, and have been using them except for CaCl2. I thought MgSO4 was Baking soda?

>>>>Lighting period 10 hours>>>.

I have been doing 12hours, is that OK? It allows me to see tank in morning and evening before they go off.

>>>>After water change dose CaCl2 to 20 – 30 ppm.>>>>

I have been using Equilibrium, is that OK?

>>>.Use the Fertilator.>>>.

I will have to read up on this. I am not familiar with it. Any suggestions on where to get explanations of it?

>>>>.Adjust CO2 valve to about 1 bubble per second. Run it into your filter intake. >>>>>>

A) 55gal is DIY, how do you keep it at one bubble per second? It does go in to Magnum 350 cannister filter.

B) 100gal is CO2 fed into Power reactor. I will have to adjust it to one bubble... Power reactor makes it hard to count bubbles. I am thinking about getting a seperate bubble counter.

>>>>>Use baking soda to keep pH at 5.5 – 6.5 after 24 hour stable CO2 flow.>>>>>

Please explain what you mean by this? I use MG is that not enough to stablize KH. If you look at Excel file it has been 4 to 5.


>>>>Start dosing daily:>>>.

I have been doing this for 3 weeks and will continue. 


>>>>.After one week test the aquariums for NO3, PO4 and pH. Do water change only if you overdose baking soda or CaCl2.>>>>..

I test every weekend and will post new file over weekend. I have been having trouble with Tetra GH test. I starts off purple/green color and only gets darker in color as I add drops. It is suppose to go from red to green, but never get to either. Any suggestions on this would be appreciated.

Thank you for giving of your time. Aquarium people are some of the most selfless I have found. 

Regards,
Ray


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

You don’t need Equilibrium. I recommended hardness of 20 – 30 ppm Ca from CaCl2. MgSO4 is not baking soda. The 12 hour period is too long. Some people run 8 hours. 

14 grams CaCl2.2H2O in 50 gall is 20 ppm Ca

A needle valve controls CO2 flow.

What is MG? MgSO4? MgSO4 has no effect on KH. MgSO4 increases GH. Baking soda increases KH. 

I don’t use Tetra GH test kit. You need to read the manual or somebody else can help here.


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*Neddle Valve?*

>>>>>Edward]
A needle valve controls CO2 flow.>>>>>

You can use a needle value on DIY CO2? Would you not blow the top off?

Maybe a three way valve?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

RJSimoneaux said:


> >>>>>Edward]
> A needle valve controls CO2 flow.>>>>>
> 
> You can use a needle value on DIY CO2? Would you not blow the top off?
> ...


No, you cannot use a needel valve with DIY CO2.
The bottle will blow or the yeast will die, one of the two.

You can feed the CO2 into a chamber or a powerhead and shut the powerhead on/off to control the CO2.

The other option is to the use a solenoid in reverse fashion, place a Tee on the outlet.
S
CO2> _______I_________Aqaurium

The solenoid will go right at the outlet of the Tee.
When the solenouid is "on", the valve will release the gas to the air.
When the solenoid is "off", the valve is closed/sealed and the gas enters the tank.

As Edward mentioned:
Ca/Mg is GH
-HCO3, baking soda is the KH.

CaCO3 adds both Ca(GH) and KH.
Most use the CaCl2 or CaSO4 for Ca++
Most use MgSO4 for Mg.
Most use baking soda to raise the KH.

SeaChem Eq adds only GH.

GH is made up of both Ca and Mg.
Most test kits that measure GH, do not mean them individually, so you may want to get a test kit that measures Ca++ as CaCO3 if you want to measure these both.

I'd suggest getting a gas CO2 system.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*The Balance*

Thanks for your replies,

I will get some baking soda to add when needed and use up the Eq., then start with CA additives.

To prevent bottle blow up I use a rubble cork with a hole drilled in the top, to cap off my bottle. That way if it did blow it would be the top, so it would not go in the tank, maybe on the wall and the floor.

I would love to have another pressurized system or branch off the one in the den. But they are in different rooms and it would be a 25 foot run. Also wanted to have the knowledge of how CO2 DIY works.

Thanks guys.


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*Balance?*

Hey Edward and Tom,

Check out the two new sheets for the two tanks.

55gal 
needs some baking soda. Can you tell me how much to raise 1ppm?

CO2 has gotten better since I changed both bottles and house is a bit warmer. It is amazing that the fish do not seem to mind this high reading.

Should I do a 25% water change with tap or RO plus equilibrium?

Algae has gotten better. have been double dosing Excel to get rid of some BBA on Fluorite and old leaves of crypto and swords.

Should I be adding more iron to this tank?

100gal

this tank has stablized some but algae is gotten worse. havin been double dosing excel here also. Green algae is gotten worse and brown algae on edge of leaves is getting worse. This tank is so much hard to manage than the 55.

Started to wonder if the cypress knees could be adding to the problem of phosphate. Any ideas would be appreceiate.

Thinking this tank needs to have water change with RO plus equilibrium.

What do you guys think?

Do ya'll see any pattern showing up


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## John S (Jan 18, 2005)

its kind of hard to get diy co2 to get that high in tanks that size are u sure those reading are right????


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

John is right on.

Does not matter all this work you are doing fiddling with nutrients, the CO2 is the main issue and it will not matter what you do with the nutrients if the CO2 is whacked.

So work on that and get a gas tank system.
You will have a lot of headaches till then.

So save yourself some work, deal with the CO2 and get a gas tank/regukator set up, you can piece one together for about 100$.

Once you do this, you'll wonder why you ever used the DIY.
Once you fix CO2, then you approach the PPS method and get **much** better results.

Note: you can use one single reg and gas tank and Tee off two needle valves(these run 15-20$ ea) for the 55 and the 100gal.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## RJSimoneaux (Jan 2, 2006)

*55gal CO2 reading*



John S said:


> its kind of hard to get diy co2 to get that high in tanks that size are u sure those reading are right????


The 55gal is powerd by two 1 1/2 quart glass botles, 1tps yeast per, 1 1/2 cup of sugar per, rubber cork, CO2 tubing, bubble counter and limewood airstone. This works quite well for me, produces 1 bubble per second or more till the end. Usually last for 2+ weeks during the summer (9 months of the year in Baton Rouge). winter, it last week or two, depend on how cold I let the houe get. Colder lately with the price of energy.



Tom said:


> >>>>>Once you do this, you'll wonder why you ever used the DIY.>>>..


I am an LMD on Uniquaria and want to understand the process. Also looking for ways to improve on it, so I can explain to newbies. Next thing I want to try is protein powder in the mix. Any experience with that?

I have considered needle valve to 55gal. But I would have to run it thru ceiling, thru attic and thru ceiling again. Not sure I want to go thru all that. And it would look kinda funky, the Interior Designer in me comes out.

TIA


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