# Micro Crabs (Limnopilos naiyanetri)



## svenster88

Hey,
has anyone kept micro crabs (Limnopilos naiyanetri) in their fish tanks? I just came across them by chance and had never heard of them before. The are appearently "next big thing" lol. But I'd love to see some pics if anyone's got some!?


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## king oz

wow very cool, i have never heard of them im excited to learn more.


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## tex627

they're pretty expensive. there was a guy on sfbaaps selling these for 18$ each but i dont think he has anymore.. sfbaaps members are very nice and generous, you probably wont find anywhere that sell the same things for a cheaper price.


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## Hish0ka

tex627 said:


> they're pretty expensive. there was a guy on sfbaaps selling these for 18$ each but i dont think he has anymore.. sfbaaps members are very nice and generous, you probably wont find anywhere that sell the same things for a cheaper price.


Yeah i saw where he was selling those for $18 each. I saw a few more recent posts on other boards of people paying somewhere closer to $8 each and a few that paid 20 euros for 6 of the crabs. I think you would just have to get lucky to find some in the first place, then worry about the price. It seems that a lot of people are thinking that it wont be too long until they are easily attainable, and i would have to agree with that.


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## ingg

They are now showing up on importer lists, $8 is about right if I remember right.


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## Knotty Bitz

Do they breed easily?


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## svenster88

I've read on some website that people have been breeding them in captivity but not sure about details.


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## Hish0ka

Yeah i googled around for about an hour yesterday trying to find some info on them. All that i could find was that a lot of people seem to say they breed easily but nobody had first hand experience. I'd be very interested if anyone had definite information. I saw where 2 members of another forums bought some off of ebay (the 20 euro price mentioned earlier). Neither of those individuals had posted anything about breeding though. I guess we will just have to keep waiting and watching- a common practice in this hobby hah!


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## tex627

hmm.... 8$ each thats really cheap! lol. i prefer sticking to shrimp, good luck looking for these!


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## KraKen

A couple people on Fishforums.net have them, you can one of the threads http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=281079

They seem really cool!


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## jlo

I seen them when I went to HK, and they look cute, and not that man places have them either, but I don't know are they safe with shrimp , fish and plant that why I did not buy them. (do anyone know are they safe with shrimp,fish and plant?)


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## max23

hopefully they are easy to breed, i might try it next time


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## jlo

I heard they are not very hard to breed. I will call my friend and see do thet have any right noe in HK, I they do I may get some ( just for fun)


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## svenster88

If you do it would be nice to see some pics! Good luck


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## jlo

I found out they do have it, but It cost about $15 + shipping for each (I think is because is a new thing that wahy it cost so much) I will have to think about it because You cannot buy just a few of them, but they do look cool.


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## Kamon

Too much like a spider for my taste .


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## disvegas

Check out the link below from Aquabid. Seller Chromes03 sells 7 crabs for $75, plus shipping.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwinverts&1241114566

disvegas,


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## jlo

I thinking to get some of these, I will keep you guys updat, if this time go well I may want to get more, by that time may be we can do a group order.


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## niko

These crabs are very nice indeed! 

When I got Amano shrimp for the first time in 2002 for a few days I had a knee jerk reaction when looking at the tank because the shrimp looked like bugs, cockroaches or something. Took me a few days to get used to them. Now I appreciate the beauty and variety they add to a tank. Recently all my shrimp from my 180 disappeared because I raised the temperature to cure Ich. The tank does not look the same without the shrimp.

Same with these crabs - they add variety that nothing else can replace.

--Nikolay


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## Jeff.:P:.

I want


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## BenBOMB

Yeah I don't think i'd be able to keep these, to spidery looking.


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## jlo

i look at more pictures of them they don't look too much like spiders and they sre the size of penny


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## mellowvision

6 for $18 at franks aquarium... mine are just acclimating now.


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## Scipio

mellowvision said:


> 6 for $18 at franks aquarium... mine are just acclimating now.


Out of stock  damit!!!


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## Gordonrichards

They seem pretty cool, if someone finds them on sale somewhere let me know!


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## Six

ingg said:


> They are now showing up on importer lists, $8 is about right if I remember right.


That is wholesale then, right? Doubt we'll see them for that price.


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## veedubdrouin

These look pretty cool. Who has kept them and can tell us what conditions they do well under, what they eat and if they are agressive?


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## ingg

Six said:


> That is wholesale then, right? Doubt we'll see them for that price.


No, that is retail from dealers who import. 

I'm picking up 5 for $35 in a week and a half.


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## mellowvision

I have not seen mine since I put them in the tank. They may be gone, or in the frogbit... they blend in to floating plants in a way that makes them nearly impossible to see. I've spent hours looking for them to no avail. not a peep since monday. (today's thursday)


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## jlo

yep one of my friend have the same problem, so now he keep them in a 6" cube tank, and they look so cute.



mellowvision said:


> I have not seen mine since I put them in the tank. They may be gone, or in the frogbit... they blend in to floating plants in a way that makes them nearly impossible to see. I've spent hours looking for them to no avail. not a peep since monday. (today's thursday)


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## pealow

Does anyone know of anyone who has them right now May 4. I can't find a source.

Paula


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## jlo

i may able to get them, but it will take about 2 weeks


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## mellowvision

update: still haven't seen them. lol.


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## Bettatail

http://theamazonbasement.com/stocklist.html

bottom of the web page, $8.00 each


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## jlo

My be you want to use a trap to trap them, that was how my friend catch them.


mellowvision said:


> update: still haven't seen them. lol.


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## mellowvision

I could give a trap a shot, but it's a really small tank, and I've spent hours looking for them. My guess is they are gone...


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## Pam916

I wonder if they crawled out.


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## JohnPaul

FWIW, I've been browsing the inverts section of Aquabid recently (looking for CPO's and various other things) and have seen several listings for these micro crabs, usually for around $6 each.

I'm interested but right now don't have a tank to devote just to them--they would have to be in one of my shrimp tanks--and I don't want to do that unless I am sure they are safe with shrimp fry.


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## ingg

Bought some today, put them into my shrimp tank.

Gotta say, creepy lil buggers.  Vaguely remind me of ticks somehow, but bigger.

They hung out in the moss for a while, came back a couple hours later and could only find one. I think the only way I'll spot them is to happen upon one moving near the glass, their legs are soooo thin, and bodies thin and flat - tiny tiny things.


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## TAB

So how big to these things get?

My rams made short work of the shrimp that were ~ 1/2"


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## svenster88

http://www.theshrimpfarm.com/blog/archives/188

1/2 Inch according to this blog! So probably something like this:










I should really be studying...


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## svenster88

....


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## fishfry

Anyone have more to report on these guy? I am looking into buying a few.


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## geeks_15

I got some micro crabs spring break '95 Daytona Beach FL. All it cost me was the money for some Lindane and a few regrets.


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## Zapins

Did they breed for you geeks?


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## geeks_15

Talk about easy to breed! I couldn't get those suckers to stop breeding.

Having them was quite an experience, but there's no way I'm paying $8 for them. You can get them for free on any Saturday night if you know where to look.


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## Diesal

Very cool! To bad bringing Inverts to Hawaii is a pain.


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## LVKSPlantlady

geeks_15 said:


> Talk about easy to breed! I couldn't get those suckers to stop breeding.
> 
> Having them was quite an experience, but there's no way I'm paying $8 for them. You can get them for free on any Saturday night if you know where to look.


Yeah and If everyone did it then there will be none left...#-o


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## fishfry

[smilie=p: Photos?? Serious though, any real advice?


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## spypet

can anyone with first hand experience with these crabs give me specific water parameter and feeding advice for these crabs? at this point I just want to keep them alive. after nearly 2 months most of the females have died on me already. I've already googled around and read most of the threads about these, but it's hard to nail down real experience specifics on their care. If you have managed to keep them alive for 6 months or more, please describe your tank parameters in detail. here are some of my female TL and male BR survivors.


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## neilshieh

i've only had mines for about a month thanks to you spypet for referring me to frank! after adding them, they disappeared into my jungle of plants but sometimes i catch them out at night. i've only had one dead body but if there were more i wouldn't be able to find them. they are like crs... so if you crs are fine they probably are too.


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## krayz5183

Hi spypet,
I might be able to help you out alittle here. I had mine alive for alittle over a year. Unfortunitly a relative of mine thought it would be a great idea to just give me his fish while i was at work...needless to say when i got home it was a massacre. i treated my crabs like crystal red shrimp because those were my main focus...i found the crabs at a fish convention in cleveland ohio.the water parameters were from what i can remember...no ammonia or nitrites present...temp running at about 78 degrees...7.2-7.5 ph level...lots of moss planted in tank...regular sand substrate...lots of cover...used stress coat liquid..azoo mineral and vitamins(hard to get ahold of)...feed them azoo max color or max breed food..like i said crs where my main focus.. weekly 20% water changes using distelled water...also put in the occasional algae wafer for added food source...hope that gives you a direction to go...also if you have any connections to get more crabs please let me know...i have the crs population restarted but cant find any crabs at this point.
thanks
jeremy


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## spypet

thanks for joining to chime in kray - just knowing someone kept them alive a year means a lot.
also confirming you have to match well discussed CRS healthy parameters is a useful guideline.
one thing though, what have you actually seen these crabs eating consistently.
I have literally burned thru two dozen dry food choices, and found nothing that works.
I read anecdote on another forum the crabs will hunt and eat baby ramshorn,
and eat some frozen fish foods, but nothing that was originally dry.
I have tried various flakes, discs, pellets like you wrote of, with no luck yet.
I even push the food a bit into the substrate where the crabs hang out,
and they just walk right past it totally disinterested.


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## krayz5183

The most that i saw them really eating on where the azoo max color food. Although i only seen some actually go at that on a regular basis.I will admit these are one of the most finicky eaters i have ever seen.I have seen some feeding off of moss balls. I have seen some feeding off of hikari algae wafers. The wafer feedings by them were vary seldom. More so i think the tank must have alot of natural occuring algae present.


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## spypet

can you link to precisely which Azoo food worked?
there is no " max color " only;
AZOO 9 IN 1 ENHANCE COLOR PELLET (M size)
AZOO 9 IN 1 ENHANCE COLOR PELLET (S size)
AZOO TOP COLOR KOI FOOD

I suspect these crabs are not actually algae eaters,
rather they eat particulates that get caught in fine plants.
that would be consistent with their water hyacinth river origins,
as filter feeders who eat what the filtering roots of such floaters catch.


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## krayz5183

Sorry should have been more detailed on that. those are actually all wrong. here is a link to the stuff on ebay...only place i can find it...very hard to get ahold of but works great.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Crystal-Red-Shr...549?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4155221a45
the vitamins and food are shown here..this guy is kinda high so search for it on ebay...by the way one is called max breed and the other is max growth...both are used to strengthen the color in shrimp with vital ingrediants...they are pretty much the same with some small differences catered to what you want to do with the shrimp but in the crab case either one should work..but i know they used to have a max color but i cant find it on there


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## krayz5183

i feel your last post might be accurate...they do have micro hairs that filter organisms out of the water...they work like a filter feeder


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## spypet

kray - sorry to be so insistent on clarification, and thank you so much for nailing down precisely what you used so we can study these choices and try to match or simulate them and join at your success at keeping these crabs alive... at least until meddling relatives come over :frusty: ... maybe by Spring we can exchange CRS - I'm restaring my A/S Grade breeding tank too, after a few years away from this hobby.
here's a reasonably priced domestic Florida reseller of those Azoo shrimp food products;
http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-shrimp-spawning-supplies.html


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## OVT

I got these guys, they are different from this post's subject matter, but I do like them (a lot). Make sure your tank is covered. Found some of mine all over the floor ....


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## spypet

yeah, I had Thai red claw crabs years ago, good thing i didn't have cats back then 
BTW - Fiddlers will eat any live fish they manage to catch, while red claws will not.
I may get red claws again one day - they were a lot less hassle than dwarf crayfish.

once you wrap your head around treating micro crabs like CRS, things may go easier.
I'm astonished how aquatic they are; they don't bother climbing above the waterline.


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## Dave-H

I love mine. I see them every night out mixing it up with the shrimp for some dinner. Very reclusive during the day, but I can usually spot then in the grass. I've never seen one swim or crawl anywhere near the surface.


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## spypet

Dave - if you've kept micro crabs more than a few Months,
can you tell us what you have actually seen them eating?
also any information about your tank parameters is helpful.

BTW on another forum, someone saw them eating;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00176GUSW
which seems consistent with the Azoo ingredient list.

I wonder if food freshness is my problem. 
_most of my dry foods are 2-3 years old.
half I can't use anymore because even
my fish are disinterested and the uneaten
stuff only gets moldy after floating a day._


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## krayz5183

Ya Spypet i like that idea...i have all types of s grade...tiger thooth...v band...3 stripe and 4 stripe...also dave i wouldnt mind knowing what spy asked too...never can have to much info and by the way dave where did you get your crabs from if i may ask?


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## Dave-H

They LOVE ken's spirulina sticks. They run out from the cave and wrestle with the shrimp for them every time. They will eat flake I think but they aren't very excited. Mostly I seem them grazing in the substrate eating tiny particles. 

I got them from Frank's Aquarium. I think he said he's feeding them spirulina, too.


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## krayz5183

Dave,
Do you have any shrimp? snails? or fish in your crab tank?


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## krayz5183

Ken's brand is much cheaper than azoo but im curious what the copper content would be if any in those.


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## spypet

Copper Sulfate as a food ingredient is a constant source of concern for shrimp keepers,
yet every top invertebrate food out there, has it as it's last ingredient so I would not be 
too hung up on that issue - keeping metals out of your water column is more important.
I'm sure if you search around this forum you'll find endless debate on the Copper issue,
but I'd rather we stayed focused here on keeping our micro crabs alive  and am more
curious on foods with some digestible calcium content that won't become a moldy mess.

_my best guess is when you see Copper Sulfate in a Pleco/rasping disc/pellet,
you probably don't want to use that around shrimp. but when you see Copper
in an invertebrate food, it's just enough as a supplement, not a potential poison._

Dave - how many Months ago did you get your crabs from Franks?


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## krayz5183

Well Spypet...what is in the foods or what is not in the foods fed to the crabs should be a huge part of this debate.More than likely most crabs are dying due to malnutrion.The crabs are fine and living for x amount of time but eventually the malnutrion kicks in (4-6 months roughly) by this time what ever they are lacking has caught up with them by this point.by the way going by what dave said about ken's they have vegtable sticks there for invertz that have 20% more calcium then the other items they produce.


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## Dave-H

I've had the shrimp about 4 months.

I have neon tetras, chili rasboras, bamboo shrimp, tons of yellow shrimp, trumpet snails, and 1 nerite.

I feed Ken's more than anything else and the shrimp are doing fine (breeding like mad). 

Today is my tank maintenance day and I made a big mess pulling out moss. An almost intact shrimp molt (a shell? an exoskeleton) came out of the moss and landed on the substrate. As we speak I'm watching two of these little crabs standing on it and (I think) eating it. I also saw one picking something out of a plant, it looked like a hair/strand of something. 

FYI I have the ken's stick with calcium, yes.


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## spypet

nice catch kray - i see it at this list bottom;
http://www.kensfish.com/kenssticks.html
it's shy on the protein then most invert foods,
but at $10.60 shipped for over 226grams it's a 
great deal if you have other mouths to feed.
my guess is you need a higher protein food
for the active growing fry then with adults.
kray - if you see any other Ken's food that
peeks your interest post here. I'd be curious
if he's got anything for CRS fry, as I need to
replace most of my long stale fish/vert food.
I emailed Ken about what's popular with CRS
breeders, and Copper issues - so I'll post what
he replies on Monday.

_I still have some of Ken's Premium Golden Pearls 200-300 microns that
mimic live brine shrimp, and even after 3 years my fish still go for them._

Sunday Dec.12 Update: my primitive goldfish selling LPS had;
http://www.amazon.com/AQUEON-AQEN-TROPICAL-FLAKES-2-29OZ/dp/B00176IHDI
in stock with a 2 year good till use date, so I got a sample jar.
this is basically the same recipe as their Spirulina flakes,
just with more dried Krill and less Spirulina as a protein.
not the ideal food or calcium source, but a good smelly
appetite stimulant. I'll let you know if the Crabs & CRS
go for it or not. I tried a bit of freeze dried bloodworm.
one crab I placed it near, held on to it for minutes,
but the other nearby crabs remained disinterested.

I'll post anew once I hear back from Ken's by email.


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## neilshieh

i rarely feed my tanks and when i do its either blanched vegetables or plecocaine. today i found a shed crab shell... do they shed their skins?


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## spypet

yes, these crabs molt their exoskeletons just like shrimp do.
it should be clear white - if it's tan, it may be a dead crab.

have you ever seen an ingredient list or analysis for this food?
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?disp&viewseller&Lohachata
nvm - thanks google; http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1087
looks like a good food, nice calcium, but nothing green in it,
and copper sulfate is higher on the ingredient list than I'd like.

Here is Ken's comment about Copper Sulfate:
_There is some in all food because it is found in your vitamin sources. We do
not put any additional copper in our sticks other then the very small amount
that is found in the vitamins that go into the food._
He didn't bother recommending anything for shrimp breeders.


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## neilshieh

maybe you should ask lotsoffish... though he's probably busy as hell... although he has answered my emails and gave me insight on other topics... like the fact that assassin snails eat planaria.


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## spypet

Ken finally got back to me about which of his foods are popular with shrimp breeders;
_You can use our regular veggie sticks or spirulina sticks as well. I even have some of our customers
that use the brine shrimp sticks. We also now carry the New Life Spectrum Invert food as well._

as far as my crabs go - i still have not seen them go for any specific food yet,
but I'm now using a airline tube to slowly introduce new water after a change,
and so far I have not found any new dead crabs  . to test new foods,
i mounted a lift tube against the glass with a dish at it's bottom opening.
this way food drops straight down into the dish, and I can observe if any
crabs go to the food, instead of waiting for the food to circulate to them.
I also mounted a fan at the water line to blow 24/7 and keep the water
temperature down in the low 70's - just the way CRS like it


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## spypet

I suspect my crabs are mentally unstable :mmph:

one keeps trying to crawl up the silicon in a corner of my tank.
he makes it up an inch, then falls back on his back, turns over
then tries again a few more times.
meanwhile, I mounted a sisal rope at a 45 degree angle above
the water line, and even started him from the top to teach him
this is a way above it should he want, despite not needing to.
he'll hang on the rope a while catching the water currents,
but then it's back to that tank corner, and flat on his ass #-o

anyway, I still don't see any dry foods they go nuts over yet.
I'll be experiementing today with blanched spinach and frozen
bloodworms next, so I'll keep you all posted.


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## aquarliam

They are carnivores feasting on live and frozen meat foods. I've only had luck feeding them frozen daphnia. I see them regularly with their claw hairs jammed full of copepods and baby MTS.

If they have been surviving long term in your tank, is there a reason to feed them anything different than what you feed your shrimp or fish or whatever else you keep with them?

Also, they are quite reluctant to travel towards the top of the tank in my tank... They have lots of stem plants and driftwood they can use to climb up, but they're always in the lowest areas of the tank.


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## spypet

aquarliam - thanks for chiming in.
my LPS was going to order Hikari frozen blood worms for me, 
so I'll ask them to add Daphnia too and see what works out.
I'm also going to order Hikari dry Shrimp (not Crab) Cuisine.

I was concerned because of the 2 males and 4 females I bought,
2 females died within the first 2 weeks. I've had the remaining
4 in a CRS water stable and fed tank now, and the crabs seem
to be fine. I'm also experimenting with live Ramshorn of various
sizes since I read they may eat the really tiny ones.

just to clarify - my definition of an invert going "nuts" for a food,
is not that they all suddenly converge on it, rather that when the
invert stumbled over the food, he at least pauses long enough to
sample it. in my tank, every food I've tried offers little distraction.


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## neilshieh

so far for me i've found one dead body... from the 10 crabs i've had. its in a pretty heavily planted tank so if other died they would have been eaten or i wouldn't see them... recently i found one crab always walking around after the lights closed. they never come out during the day, only after lights out. its also shed its shell. i'm pretty sure a crab that size can't go 3 months without food so its eating something... problem is, is that i never feed my tanks so it'd have to be plant matter. perhaps it might be like silkworms... they eat certain plant matter much like how silkworms only eat mulberry leaves


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## spypet

i just completed the first stage of my ramshorn food trial by placing 10 ramshorn pea size 0.5-1.0cm in my tank, and leaving them there a week with my 4 crabs with little extra food available. they initially harassed the snails, but after a week all 10 snails were found alive and removed from this stank.
I will now attempt the same with 0.1-0.4cm ramshorn, which are very fragile and difficult to relocate between tanks. I'm not even sure I will be able to do a census a week later to see if any were eaten, but I'll try. other food related discussions are occuring on this thread, 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...rates/74782-hikari-shrimp-cuisine-copper.html
but nothing conclusive yet with the crabs, and when there is, I will post it here. I did notice them occasionally handling freeze dried bloodworm cube bits, but could not say conclusively if they ate them.


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## aquarliam

The ramshorns mine eat are newborn, maybe 1-2 mm in size. You'll see empty shells.

I think they mostly eat copepods, which is why I feed frozen daphnia. The frozen daphnia ranges in sizes between < 1mm to 2mm. You can see what they're eating by looking at the hair on the back of their claws, they use the hairs like a chipmunk uses it's cheeks, they keep meals in there for eating in private later. This is how I know they're eating the baby ramshorns and MTS


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## spypet

good, so I can use empty shells for my census data.
I'm going to do this very "scientifically" by moving
10 snails first to a breeder box inside the crab tank,
just to be absolutely sure they survived the move.
then i'll leave the box on the crab tank bottom to
let the snails run free, then check a week later for
the snails and shell empties. I'm working on getting
other frozen foods - if just takes a few weeks for
my LPS to special order them so I don't have to pay
a fortune in overnight shipping from online vendors.


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## neilshieh

recently i've seen about 5 of my crabs walking around in my community tank... looks like they're eating something


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## aquarliam

Anyone want to see an HD video of 2 microcrabs doing the dirty?

Yeah, I set up a camera to catch them breeding...


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## spypet

thanks, but seeing them clench is a pretty common sight.
I'm more interested in learning how to spot a berried female.
they are so tiny and debris coated that it's difficult to tell.

BTW, out of the 6 crabs I got from Franks,
4 have survive with me over 2 Months now.
They love burying deep in my clay substrate.

I should have frozen foods by Friday to test.
my LPS is getting a Hikari shipment this week.


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## neilshieh

^ haha ill get that picture of my berried female micro crab to you soon! plus the stats of my tank. i moved a male to my crs tank and he seems to be doing well! did not know they could climb plastic tubes O_O


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## aquarliam

Berried female is very easy to spot... There is a bright pink/orange/yellow egg sac hanging under their butt.

There will be no doubt in your mind when there is eggs.


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## aquarliam

Here's the video, you can see the eggs ready to be fertilized on the female. When she molts, those eggs will be even more visible.

She has pink eggs


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## spypet

thanks for sharing your vids - nice camera.
i'm going to add some 1-2mm Aragonite to
my canister filter, so hopefully a bit more
pH & Hardness will help these crabs out.


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## aquarliam

These are river invertebrates, they need low pH and hardness. Have you heard they need high pH and hardness from somewhere? 

I only mention this because mine are in pH 6.1, KH 0, GH 3 and breed/molt very regularly, just like most river shrimp.

Most rivers on earth (even ones with limestone beginnings) will be low hardness, low pH because of several factors. These include trees and other riverbank vegetation absorbing nutrients and minerals, humic acid from bank erosion, and tannic acid from decomposing vegetation.

In this day and age, you can add human and range animal waste to that mix as well.


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## spypet

aqualirm - most river systems turn into estuaries,
which means they periodically become more saline.
since this crab's fry have a zeo cycle that may require
brackish green water, it seems clear it's natural for them.
hardness comes from the limestone rock too, so it
can occur way upstream in a river system as well.

franksaquarium's exporter advised using harder warmer water,
and many here got their crabs from him. obviously in captivity
the crabs have adapted to various conditions, but that doesn't
mean they're happy. to be fair, the exporter may simply have
reported what conditions he kept them in, not found them in 
applying the same logic - since most crab keepings throw these
in their CRS/RCS tanks, that may be where the soft water idea
originated from, and enough crabs simply adapted to conditions.

http://franksaquarium.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=607

since I have my crabs with CRS, I can't get too
hard or warm, but a bit more won't harm the RCS.
besides, my tap water comes out too soft anyway.
CRS are from far upstream cold soft running water streams.
if I make the change gradually enough, they should be fine.
I plan on later adding Indian shrimp and RCS to this tank
for a wider variety of no cross breeding shrimp, so leaving
the water conditions holding at neutral will benefit them all.
I'm not trying to breed them, just enjoy knowing they're happy.


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## aquarliam

Ahh, I see. I've never heard of them having a brackish requirement before.


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## aquarliam

I just looked it up again, and they are completely freshwater, completing their whole life cycle in fresh water. Native to southeast asian fresh water rivers, which is the same as river caridinas (soft, acidic).

Although if the person you bought them from has been raising them in hard, alkaline water they may already be adjusted to that.


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## neilshieh

sorry spypet, going through some family trouble and i haven't been able to look for the female crab... last time i saw it, i didn't have a camera ready, this time i will!


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## spypet

neil - there is no rush.
since we can't raise them to maturity
what's the difference.
I simply want to see what to look for.


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## neilshieh

well i saw the berried female today but it was in a weird angle and they don't like to pose... ill try to raise the fry... who knows, i may be famous


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## spypet

neilshieh said:


> ill try to raise the fry...


what's your strategy; green water? brackish saline water? sponge filter and prayer?


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## neilshieh

green water, creek water and lots of luck.


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## spypet

I think I solved the mystery of why I keep finding dead females :idea:

I may have a particularly dominent male, who seems to like wrestling
the females while they are trying to molt. I caught this behavior and
isolated the female to a breeder net box - so we'll see if she survives.

_they do have various hiding places to molt, as well as 
a soft clay substrate they can just bury themselves in._

I'm trying a lot of new foods on them now, but nothing conclusive yet.
I'll give it another week of new food "training" before I post about them.


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## spypet

I have killed one of my males during a water change today.
the new water was colder and he literally froze in a position,
and didn't snap out of it, even after the water warmed up.
I was surprised to see this, given that the CRS in the same
tank did not seem bothered one bit. this leads me to believe
that Franksaquarium was right, maybe these crabs do need
warmer water, and people keeping them in cooler CRS tanks
are not doing these crabs any favors. just food for thought.
_it's also possible he was weak while trying to molt, and the
water change killing him was nothing but bad timing for me.
he did seem to display like his next molt was imminent._


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## Dave-H

I was out of the country for a month and got back a couple of days ago. To my delight, the crabs seem to have fared well in my absence. I had out cat sitter giving the tank a varied diet of dried daphnia, spirulina, flake and algae wafers and all of the shrimp, fish, and crabs appear to be ok.

Well, I don't have a count on the crabs actually cause they are such hiders. But, I did shine a light into the grass last night and immediately spotted about 10 of these suckers grazing - that is about what I would have seen before I left.

So, I'm going on 5 months and they appear healthy so far!!


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## neilshieh

after a month in my crs tank the male i put in was alive and kicking! but when i took him out he got one of his legs caught and it ripped off... well i also found my berried female while doing filter maintenance.  she made her own little habitat in the bioballs and filter pads.


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## PMD

Any luck with raising the larva yet? Did the green water work?


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## neilshieh

nope...


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## spypet

my two remaining females I moved from my 72°F tank to my 78°F tank are both doing fine.
if they are both alive a Month from now, then I think it's safe to conclude that temperature
definitely plays a roll in this inverts comfort level and ability to molt consistently. I would
like to get more of these crabs - once I'm certain to have a tank that does not kill them ;(
but before then I'm going to add dwarf crayfish to the same tank and see how these two
crabs manage to avoid getting harassed, losing limbs and eaten by the crayfish. my hopes
are low as crabs usually stand their ground only to lose limbs to crayfish, but maybe these
little buggers will be different - we shall see.


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## PMD

It seems logical that the solution to the larvae survival problem is probably one of two things. The larvae either wash downstream into brackish waters to go through their instars, or they're possibly of a more predatory nature. Perhaps try a batch in brackish water, and then try another batch feeding something along the lines of paramecium/newborn moina?

These things seem kinda too "available" for importers to simply be harvesting them out of a single river they supposedly come from.


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## spypet

my confidence is growing that temperature is definitely a factor with these crabs.
my cooler tank was shrimp only, while this warm tank has a dozen 5cm fish in it.
not only are my 3 females in the warmer tank doing well ( I thought I only had 2 )
but they are feisty and sociable with each other. in the cool tank they used to be
lethargic. warm tanked when I stick my finger near them they scurry away, or climb
around my finger trying to find where to hide on it. as for food, all I put in this tank
are Hikari crab cuisine and there are baby ramshorn snails around, so between the
two food the 3 crabs must be eating just fine as I've had them for Months already.


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## m00z

Hi everyone, interesting read!
Here's a video of one of my females releasing her eggs. This was 3days ago, and I had another one release hers today. Bummer that the larvae are so hard to raise 




Sorry for the poor quality.


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## neilshieh

i noticed 1 of my crabs still walking around yesterday night! so far so good. i really thought i'd like these critters... but they hide so much it defeats the purpose.


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## neilshieh

i don't know if it's just my crabs but they are drawn by the filter... just the other day i saw my crab trying to crawl into my filter intake and would have succeeded if i had not stopped it. last time while cleaning my diy canister filter i also found the pregnant crab alive inside.


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## Treetom

That looks like a spider pretending to be a crab... Icky poo...


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## aquarliam

PMD said:


> It seems logical that the solution to the larvae survival problem is probably one of two things. The larvae either wash downstream into brackish waters to go through their instars, or they're possibly of a more predatory nature. Perhaps try a batch in brackish water, and then try another batch feeding something along the lines of paramecium/newborn moina?
> 
> These things seem kinda too "available" for importers to simply be harvesting them out of a single river they supposedly come from.


It has already been documented that limnopilos naiyanetri complete their entire live cycle in fresh water. I'm sure the zoa need phytoplankton of some sort to survive, I plan on setting up a green water tank to experiment with these in the near future. Going to have one set up outside this summer.

And the reason I don't think that exporters are breeding them in thailand is because when they're imported here stateside, they are all adult size already. Exporters who raise their own livestock would most likely ship out babies and juveniles as well as adults if they were raising them. Take caridina japonica for instance.

I don't find it hard to believe there are millions of these crabs in the rivers of thailand to just pull out.

-- liam


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## Trail_Mix

So what are some good tank mates for these?


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## aquaponicpaw

Trail_Mix said:


> So what are some good tank mates for these?


Shrimp, Snails, As far as fish the smaller the better. I'm currently on the Market for some type of Micro-Rasbora/CPD to go with mine.


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## Nice2one

aquarliam said:


> I plan on setting up a green water tank to experiment with these in the near future. Going to have one set up outside this summer.
> -- liam


Hey Liam

Did you ever set up this tank with these nano crabs ? I am very interested to hear if your theory where right :noidea:

Best regards - Keen :yo:


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