# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Hey Endler's Mom, or other Endler's keepers, what water temp?



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi EndlersMom, or anyone else who keeps Endler's Livebearers - I have a question.

I got a nice group of Endler's Livebearers, Center Peacock, from the Boston Aquarium Society auction in November. 17 youngsters, including one mature female and two colored up males. Its been fun watching the others mature. The source is well respected, and they are very healthy and happy (and multiplying like bunnies!). I've found conflicting information on what temperatures they prefer. Some folks have said that they do really well in cooler temps, but others say they like it warm. My gut says their place of origin (small bodies of water in Venezuala) would point towards warm, but I wanted to ask you. 

Also, in a very Pavlovian way, a lot of them gather around the heater when the light goes on. Are they cold, or are they just basking in the heater warmth? They immediately leave it if I feed them. I've been trying to keep the temp at 72º-74º F, with some fluctuation down to 70/71º in early AM as I read it throughout the day. The fluctuation is coming from the on/off of the heater coupled with the room variation. The tank is in the lower shelf of a two-tier stand, so there is more fluctuation from the central (house) heat. I have them in with Bumblebee shrimp, who appreciate the lower temps, and don't do well above 76º F.

Are they just amusing themselves, or are they cold? They are having lots of babies (3-4 more babies appear at least every other week) and I only started with 1 mature female, now up to 3 that look mature.

Thank you!
-Jane


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## Inquisitive (Nov 7, 2003)

I understand what you are saying.....

IMO I think that they are more active in warmer temps. But Im not too experienced in Endlers.

Hope this helps.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You'll be overrun in no time! LOL
They pop out fry every 23 days.
and the bigger the females get, the more fry they have.

They really like it up around 78-80 I think. but they breed like bunnies. The cooler you keep them, the slower they'll breed. People who keep them outside say they can tolerate down to 50F.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I don't know if this is apropos to your situation, but when my aquariums get too cool, most of the fish huddle around the heater.

Bill


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Thank you all!

OK, I'll turn it up a degree or two, and aim for 75-76º F. Wow - they can survive down to 50 F? Gee, by the sounds of it, every 23 days, perhaps I need to slow them down, LOL! 

One of the males has turned out to have the "1/2 tuxedo black" markings - should I remove him to keep the group "pure" Center Peacock? or is this normal variation. The source is an Endler enthusiast, so I know these don't have any guppy in their lineage.

Thanks!
-Jane


If I do get overrun, would it be too cruel to put them in my "semi-agressive" tank, and let the Bolivian Rams dine on them? I don't know if I could do it..... but ........ they've already increased greatly in numbers!


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

> If I do get overrun, would it be too cruel to put them in my "semi-agressive" tank, and let the Bolivian Rams dine on them? I don't know if I could do it..... but ........ they've already increased greatly in numbers!


A major philosophical question.

I'd say it would not be at all cruel. In fact, it could be argued that the rams need live foods, including other fish, to maintain full lives, and it would be "cruel" not to give it to them.

Feeding excess fish to other fish is probably better than the other common ways of disposing of the excess, and you will have to do something eventually.

Plus, maybe the food boost will cause the rams to breed, and then you can feed their excess fry to the Endler's. A win-win situation! <g>

Bill


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## Endlersmom (Feb 29, 2004)

Hi Jane,

Congratulations on your new Endlers.

A good site for information is: http://www.EndlersR.us

According to the site, Endlers can live in a large temperature range, recommended range is 72-82 F.

Endlers metabolism increases with an increase in temperature, so fry are produced more frequently, this also seems to shorten it life span. A cooler temperature they live longer.

They will not reproduce in very cold water. In the summer, you do not worry about them when your tank hits 90s.

I like keeping them around 77F in the winter.

I agree with Bill it is a major philosophical question whether you use them to feed other fish.

I sometimes wonder the same thing when I squish snails to feed the fish.

Do not worry to quickly about being over run, an all Endlers tank which is well planted can be very heavily stocked with Endlers and not have a major bioload problem.

If you do not like giving Endlers to the Rams, and if the Rams are in a planted tank, you may eventually put some Endlers in there, some may survive the rams, and you can have a feeding enviroment.

As for removing the 1/2 tux, I am not sure if removing it will work, in keeping the "Center Peacock pure".

Females can store sperm for five months.

Also, if a male mates with a female very soon after she has dropped fry, the sperm gets replaced with the latest sperm introduced. This is especially true in young females.

The questions now comes down to:

Has this male's sperm being introduced to any of your females?

Were any of the females introduced to tux males before you got them?

You can not tell if the 1/2 tux male was dropped with any females. These females have genes that may spread the 1/2 tux colouring.

You can remove him and any resulting fry that look like tux and see if this will keep the Center peacock dominate in the tank.

You can keep the tux in the tank, and see what colours develop.

If you had pure Endlers strains, you may want to keep them seperate as not to mix the strains.

Mixing a few in a different tank would be nice to see what colours come up.

I mixed various colour strains together this fall. It is fun watching the males colour up. Eventually the dominate traits will prevail.

Remember you should do what is enjoyable for you.

I hope this is not information overload.

I love my Endlers, I hope you get as much enjoyment out of yours.


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## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

Hi Jane-native habitat temp for ELB's is 80-81.
They will survive outside (for a few days) in temps as low as 47. I've had them outside in the summer in temps of 100 plus with no ill effects. One deeper outside tank had a range of temps from 100 on top to 80 at the bottom. Most of the adults were near the bottom. Most of the fry were in the top third. All readily came to the top for groceries.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Wow, thanks for all the great information! I've bumped the temp up by a degree (one "click" on the heater), and will bump it up another tomorrow. I didn't know they are so heat tolerant! Wow!

Ms Walstad mentions putting unwanted fry into ice-cold water and/or carbonated water as a way to euthanize them. I really don't know if I could do the feeding-to-another thing..... I even feel kinda bad for the live brine shrimp when I feed them to my fish ...... they're fascinating in their own right! Then again, even the semi-agressive tank (young Angelfish, Bolivian Rams, Yo Yo loaches) IS heavily planted.

Hmmm.... keeping the 1/2 tux and possible offspring separate is the idea I like best, as this Center Peacock was (I believe) line-bred, and they're really gorgeous little gems. This individual was a juvenile when it arrived, so maybe it got mixed in by accident (?). But then in order to segregate them, I'll need another tank, as I have no room in the others. I do have an empty 10 in the basement ....Hmmm........ (Aquarium keeping is insideous, isn't it?)

Again, thank you for all the wonderful information - I really appreciate it. And yes, I've become quite attached to my little Endlers - they're so lovely, and sweet, and strangely curious about ME when I do tank maintenance!

Thanks!
-Jane


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

It'll be interesting to see how much variation you see in the offspring. I started with peacocks and I'm seeing all sorts of variation. Here are pics of the original batch and their offspring. More pics here of later offspring.

I think if you're going to routinely kill fish, you should consider using either clove oil or Finquel... preferably finquel. An overdose of baking soda kills by generating carbon dioxide. That's a distant third choice for me. ice water or freezing in my opinion isn't humane.

I'm currently working on balancing fish that eat endler fry and Endlers in a heavily planted tank... The Endlers are still winning.

You might check and see if one of your local pet shops would take them. I'm selling 100-150 Endlers a month to a LPS here.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

euthanizing fish by freezing them used to be the preferred way to do that unpleasant task, but there seems to be growing resistance to that now.

Here's a summary of methods.

http://www.petalia.com.au/templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?Story_No=1885

If one doesn't want to recycle the unwanted fish, I would think that the best way would be that which causes the least distress to the fish. I have one that takes less than a second to accomplish the deed. There are others that are about as fast. Sometimes a quick, vioent end is preferable to a more extended, non-violent one.

Bill


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

If you've used finquel, you'll never go back.
I used it to sedate one of my goldies for a procedure. he didn't even struggle after going into the finquel solution, just got stoned and snoozed out. I can't think of a better way to go. To use it for euthanasia, you just leave them in the solution tlll there's no gill movements for a while and then some people go ahead and freeze them just to make sure. 

I still think, even tho I don't like it. that setting up an ecosystem where the population doesn't explode by balancing Endlers with something that eats most of the fry is the way to go if you don't have an outlet for them. They don't mess around when it comes to popping out fry.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Eeek. 

Yes, I will of course try to "recycle" the fish at a LPS first. 

Wow, Betty - 100+ per month? yikes! Thankfully, mine are not at those levels yet. I really don't think I could euthanize an otherwise healthy fish. 

The pictures are very interesting - you can really see certain traits "appear" more in the later photos, like the double mark above and below the peacock spot. 

I'm watching them now, having read a fascinating article on female mate-selection, and how in Endler's, this is one of the strongest determining factors on male offspring patterns. I now have three little "half tux" males, and the females actually appear to be more receptive to the males with the reds and greens in their bodies. I'm looking forward to seeing the next round of babies color up, to see what the patterns are!

I also have two "widowed" female fancy guppies, with a red & black heritage. I've toyed with the thought of putting the "half tux" males (or one or two of them) in with the girls, and seeing if hybrids develop. Of course, then I could never put them back in with the Endlers, and would have another colony of fish (hybrids) going.......

-Jane


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I think seeing the color/pattern variation over time is the best part of having Endlers. We've pulled out several males we like and put them in separate tanks to see what happens there.
I'm seeing a few large males in my 125 now. They're typically not as colored up as the smaller males.

Yea, that would be neat to see what you'd get between Endlers and your guppy females.


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## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

Jane- Could you send me that article?
Pretty please


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hey Bob!

Yes, it was in the library of the Endlers R Us website that you referred me to!

Its by Brenden & Lindholm (might not have that spelled correctly, as not looking at it directly at the moment).

The first part of the article is heavy on the chromosomal linkage, but the latter part really gets into selection by females. They paired Endler's females with regular guppies of various colors, and the Endler's females had a marked preference for the Endler's males, as shown by the coloration of male offspring (ie, who the sire was). Its a LONG article, but I read the whole thing, and it got more and more interesting.

http://endlersr.us/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15

Very interesting stuff!
-Jane


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