# German Blue Rams



## dclangford3

If anybody has any questions about caring for, breeding, or sexing these fish let me know I've been keeping/breeding these beautiful fish for 5 years now and would love to help anybody out who is interested in getting them.


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## Crashkt90

I wish you knew about kribs... My male doesnt look like hes eating...


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## Zapins

Every time I pass the blue ram tank at my LFS I find myself wondering about these fish. I have heard so many rumors about them and I'm not sure what to believe anymore. 

I heard they do not breed strongly and when they do spawn the babies are weak. 

I heard that usually the breeders sell only males.

There were also doubts raised about the blue coloration, if it breeds true down the generations.

Are any of these true or false? Also how many pairs have you bred and what are the spawn sizes/health and adult coloration on them?

Thanks for your help! I've wanted to get some blue rams for ages but I like to do my homework first before I bring home new fish and the info I was able to scrounge up hasn't come from people who have personally raised them


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## barclaya

dclangford3 said:


> If anybody has any questions about caring for, breeding, or sexing these fish let me know I've been keeping/breeding these beautiful fish for 5 years now and would love to help anybody out who is interested in getting them.


I buy 10 german blue ram on Feb 2011. I loss them one by one. some fish last for more than 2 months. but other fish is doing well. do you know what is wrong. I keep them in 29g planted community tank with 20 cardinal tetra. 7 cherry barb. 6 glow fish.


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## dclangford3

Zapins said:


> Every time I pass the blue ram tank at my LFS I find myself wondering about these fish. I have heard so many rumors about them and I'm not sure what to believe anymore.
> 
> I heard they do not breed strongly and when they do spawn the babies are weak.
> 
> I heard that usually the breeders sell only males.
> 
> There were also doubts raised about the blue coloration, if it breeds true down the generations.
> 
> Are any of these true or false? Also how many pairs have you bred and what are the spawn sizes/health and adult coloration on them?
> 
> Thanks for your help! I've wanted to get some blue rams for ages but I like to do my homework first before I bring home new fish and the info I was able to scrounge up hasn't come from people who have personally raised them


Sometimes they don't breed strongly, it very much depends on the quality of the parents. Sometimes it takes several attempts before the pair successfully spawn. As for the blue coloration, I have never had any problems with my spawns losing color over time, however, you will always have more colorful fish than others from the same spawn. The one that is true is that most breeders do only sale males. Also, if you find GBR's at your lfs make sure they were not breed in Asia!! Asian GBR's are loaded with hormones to make them more colorful, and will most likely die about a week after you purchase them. Wild-caught is always the best option but the least available. Locally bred and European bred are your next best options. Check out www.gunpowderaquatics.com he usually has good quality male and female GBRs at a good price. 
I have personally bred 8 pairs to date, I have 4 pairs currently. They usually lay anywhere from 150-300 eggs, but sometimes it can be less or more. Most of my fry turn into beautiful adults, but their are definitely more colorful fish than others. You will see their full coloration by the time they reach 6 months sometimes earlier. The best way to breed these fish is to buy 6-8 juveniles and let a pair form. Once a pair is formed, either remove them to their own tank or get rid of the other rams. The best conditions to breed them are very soft water and a pH from 5.0-6.0. Also, slightly raising the temperature (up from 80F to 82F in my tanks) helps coax them into breeding. Also, keep them in blackwater this makes them feel more secure, and is ideal water for breeding these fish. While you can breed them in crystal clear water, I've had more success in blackwater. I hope this answers your questions. If you have any questions about sexing or how to choose a good specimen feel free to ask.


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## dclangford3

barclaya said:


> I buy 10 german blue ram on Feb 2011. I loss them one by one. some fish last for more than 2 months. but other fish is doing well. do you know what is wrong. I keep them in 29g planted community tank with 20 cardinal tetra. 7 cherry barb. 6 glow fish.


Most likely it's overcrowding that is causing you to lose fish. GBRs are very sensitive to water parameters. What are your water parameters and I could give you a more educated answer.


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## dclangford3

Crashkt90 said:


> I wish you knew about kribs... My male doesnt look like hes eating...


I know a little about kribs, I've kept them in the past. Could you give me some more information? Like water parameters, any color loss, fin damage, etc.?


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## Zapins

Good advice. By the way are we talking about wild type rams or the new color morph the electric blue ram? Just have to be sure since you mentioned the wild caught ones are the best option...


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## dclangford3

Wild type rams are the ones I keep, but the same stuff applies to the electric blue morphs. Personally, I don't like the electric blues because most of the time they are Asian bred (at least in my area) and I think the German Blues and Golds are better looking anyway. Bolivian Rams are also a good choice as they are hardier and can adapt to a wider range of water parameters than the GBRs.


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## shark1505

Sweet, I will definitely be coming to you with questions.


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## dclangford3

Sounds good, I look forward to hearing them. Feel free to send me a pm or post your questions on this thread.


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## tanen

I've got a question

I bought what I thought was a pair of rams from a "not so well run operation near home" and now I'm thinking that i got 2 males instead of a male/female pair.

Please take a look at the video of the 2 going at each other and let me know what you think.


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## joesaysso

Really hard to tell from your video, tanen. At least for me. The camera wants to focus on the plants instead of the fish, making your plants clear and the fish too blurry to make out any markings. Look for the color black on the pelvic fins (the fins on their bellies that they flail around like a pair of arms). If black is present, its a female. No black, male. Hopefully you have one of each but I can't tell, a better trained eye may. Females also tend to have a pink-ish belly. I will say that they way they are flaring up at each other like that looks like a "dominant male" dispute but look for the markings to be sure.


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## tanen

Thanks Joe for looking. I took that video with my phone and I know it's not that good. I'm almost positive that they are both males so I'll probably take one back this weekend once I'm sure.


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## Crashkt90

All i know about GBR's are that they will dig up plants.


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## dclangford3

After looking at the video I do believe you have two males. The black on the pelvic fins isn't always an accurate indicator of sex despite what many websites say. The most accurate way to sex is to look for a pinkish hue on the belly, this indicates a female. It was hard to tell the coloration, because like joe said the video was kind of blurry, but the behavior indicates a dominant male dispute as joe mentioned. 

And Crash I've never had any trouble with my GBR's digging up plants. Did you have some in the past that dug your plants up?


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## TAB

the bad thing about GBR is they have been inbread so much the only sure method to sex them is look at thier sex organ.

all the color and shape deals are iffy with mass bread rams.


Watch out when they start to breed if they are in a tank with other fish. they can and will kill them. The last pair I had, the female even killed the male. after they spawned.


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## dclangford3

This is very true, this is why I recommend you buy your GBR's from a trusted source. Wild GBR's are always the best if you can find them. Next best bet is a local breeder. Never buy Asian bred GBR's, not only are they inbreeds, they are also pumped with hormones to make them look more colorful. These hormones almost always cause the fish to die in a matter of weeks. 

I have never had any trouble with my rams when they have bred in my community tank, they are only aggressive when they don't feel secure. However, I do recommend moving your GBR's into their own tank when they pair off. This is not because they become super aggressive, but so other fish don't eat the eggs. 

I have seen stories of other people's rams killing their mates after spawning, but I have never personally had this happen. If you spot one parent bullying the other, remove the fish being bullied. As for killing other fish, I have never had a problem with that and haven't heard of anybody having that problem until you mentioned it. Did you have GBR's kill other species during spawning TAB? If so, was your tank overcrowded or lacking in hiding spots?


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## mudboots

What size aquarium is ideal for these fish? I have a 34 bow front (30 wide x 21 tall and from 11-15 deep from wall to center of bow). I've been trying to decide just exactly what species I want and do not want to cram too many fish into an uncomfortable spot.


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## dclangford3

You could place 4-6 GBR's in that tank, depending on how many other fish you want to get. I would go with a school of 10 small tetras (neons, cardinals, etc.) or a school of 6-8 medium sized tetras (rummynose, red phantoms, etc.) with 4-6 GBR's depending on how much you want to deal with your water quality. Now if you are trying to breed these guys I would recommend getting 6-8 juveniles and let them pair off naturally. Keep your best two pairs in a tank this size and sell the others or move them to another tank. Of course if you do this make sure to cycle the tank with hardier fish, as GBR's are sensitive to water quality. 

As for ideal size of aquarium it really depends, I keep most of my breeding pairs in their own ten gallon tanks. But for just an average community tank, I'd say 30 gal. and up is your best bet.

Hope this helps!


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## mudboots

Yep; that answers my questions; thanks a million!


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## dclangford3

You're welcome. Let me know if you have any other questions!


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## exbf

Hi, I have four GBRs in my 15gallon planted tank and I just found a lot of frys(around 80 to 100). I think they are around 2-3 days old. I also have one otocinclus. The parents are guarding them and theyre grabbing the frys when they are swimming away and spits them back.

I bought hikari first bites and i put some. It just floated and went all around the tank. Im not sure if the frys were able to eat them. I also put a fluval sponge on the aquaclear filter to keep them from getting sucked in. I also removed the other rams because I saw them ate some frys.

My question is. Should I separate them from the parents? What can I feed them? Any othet tips? sorry for asking a lot of questions. I just want the ram frys to survive. Thank you.

A couple of pics. The father is caught wild from Amazon river and the mother is from LFS. (maybe locally bred).










The Father and frys


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## exbf

dclangford3 said:


> You're welcome. Let me know if you have any other questions!


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## bigstick120

A few may survive, but your best bet is to remove anything that will eat them.


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## exbf

bigstick120 said:


> A few may survive, but your best bet is to remove anything that will eat them.


Thanks. I already removed all other rams except the mother. She is guarding her frys. Hopefully she won't decide to eat them. There are only around 60 frys left.


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## D9Vin

Have you had any experience breeding them in harder water with a higher ph? Or is it not possible due to egg hardening or something of that nature?


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## pbh

Here are a couple of photos of my GBR spawning. I keep one pair to a tank with a sponge filter.


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## hydrosparky

Hi, I'm new to fish and wanted to know more about the German Blue Rams. I've been looking everywhere to find non-Asian bred fish but unfortunately, I cannot find any. I'd be happy to find wild caught fish or domesticated rams. Can anyone tell me where I can get these fish?

P.S. Are wild caught fish better than domesticated rams?


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## dclangford3

Exbf, to answer your questions, first you have already done what I would have in removing everybody but the mother. However, make sure to watch her and keep her well fed, because some moms will eat their babies after a while. I would eventually remove her anyway, but for now she should be fine. For the feeding, first bites is okay, but not ideal (the secret to getting it to sink is to scoop out a little aquarium water into a clean plastic cup and pouring a little of the mixture in the cup and swish it around then pour it on top of where the fry are located). I, however, would recommend golden pearls or freshly hatched baby brine shrimp. Remember that fry have a yolk sac that feeds them for the first week or so and don't need to be fed. When this is depleted they must be fed and fed a good amount 2-3 times a day or they will die and they will die quickly.

Hope this helps and sorry for replying so late!


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## dclangford3

D9Vin, I personally have not bred them in harder water or with a higher pH, but I do know some people say they have had success in doing so. However, your success rate in breeding and even keeping this wonderful species alive would be greatly increased in soft water with an acidic pH.


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## dclangford3

Hydrosparky check aquabid.com there are usually plenty of locally bred GBR's for sale there. Also, in my opinion wild caught rams are the best, but I know plenty of people who would say locally bred are better. I will say that locally bred GBR's sometimes adapt better than wild caught rams, but as always it depends on the fish and the quality of your water.


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## hydrosparky

My water has a pH higher than what the rams would want (7-8). I'm not sure about the hardness and the alkalinity, but I'm sure they are high too.


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## wHeEzO

I'd like to say, that's a first... normally people ask questions and get answers. I like what you did... offer first... very original and helpful. =)


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## dclangford3

Hydrosparky I would recommend that you find a way to lower the pH and hardness in your tank before purchasing GBRs. I have never had success keeping them in water with a pH over 6.8, but like I mentioned in a previous post I know plenty of people who say they have kept and bred GBRs in water with a pH of 7 and higher. However, I believe it would greatly benefit you to have a soft water set up with a pH from around 5.0-6.0 when trying to keep this wonderful species.
Hope this is helpful, feel free to ask me anything else you want to ask about GBRs.


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## dclangford3

Thank you wheezo, I hope that my knowledge of this species is helpful to everyone who is interested in keeping this wonderful, but somewhat delicate species. If you or anyone else reading this has any questions, please feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them.


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## DeeJayA1

How's your experience with electric blue rams and their pairing habits? My blue male ebr has switched females... Is that normal for all fish?


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## dclangford3

I have personally never kept EBRs, but seeing as they are a color morph of GBRs, I will tell you what I know about GBR breeding habits. Most, if not all, GBRs mate for life (meaning they mate with one partner for their entire life.) Now I see that you said pairing, do you mean your male has mated with 2 different females, or just courted 2 different females? If it's just courting then yes that is normal behavior for rams, they court females until they find the one they like best. Sometimes it's the first female the find, and sometimes it takes a couple attempts before they find their mate. If your EBR has mated with two females that is not typical in my experience or in my knowledge, like I said earlier rams usually mate for life. Let me know which one it is, and I'll do a little research on EBR breeding habits, and see if they differ any from GBRs.
Hope you find this information helpful! Feel free to ask more questions.


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## Ramsay

Thinking about setting uo a tank for rams and have questions.
1. how many should I keep in a 20H tank, numbers of male vs female
2. How do I create and maintain proper water parameters? I have an RO/DI system and reactors I could use from reef tank days.

Thanks!


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## dclangford3

Ramsay, I would recommend 4 rams (2 males, 2 females) in a 20H tank. That way there is plenty of bottom space for them to declare as their territory. However, if you are trying to breed your GBRs, I would recommend buying 6-8 juveniles and let them naturally pair up, keep your two best-looking pairs and sell or move the rest into another tank. As far as water parameters go, I personally have very soft and acidic water right out of the tap, so I don't have the need for a RO/DI system, but if your tap water is hard and has a pH over 6.5 your RO/DI system will come in handy. You want your pH to be from 5.0-6.0 hardness below 12 dGH (preferably below 5 dGH) and your water temperature 27-30C/80-86F. To make the blackwater environment that this species thrives in, I would recommend buying some Indian Almond/Catappa Leaves to place in the bottom of your tank. You can find these at aquabid.com and possibly in the for sale/trade folder on this forum. Blackwater isn't necessary to keep this wonderful species, but if you want to see them truly thrive, a blackwater environment is the way to go.
Hope this helps if you have anymore questions feel free to ask!


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## hydrosparky

I'm thinking of putting 4 GBRs in my 25 gal tank with some neons and shrimp. I'm getting a male and female regular GBR, while I'm getting a male and female Gold GBR. I've heard of some instances where the gold and blue can breed, creating genetic diversities. As people keep interbreeding them, they state that powder blue rams are created through this process. If your GBRs do spawn, can you feed the fry very finely crushed flake food? Getting newly hatched brine shrimp is a pain, while infusoria cultures can go bad and what not.


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## dclangford3

Yes, GBRs and GGRs can crossbreed and eventually have powder blue rams. I've never tried to do this, but there is a guy on aquabid.com, Joegargas, who has and sells them. If you are interested in trying to have powder blue offspring I would send him an email, and see what he has to say. Newly hatched brine shrimp or golden pearls are excellent fry food, but if you want to go with non-live food, try Hikari First Bites.


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## hydrosparky

Have you given the food to your baby rams before? What temperature do you reccomend keeping the rams?


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## dclangford3

Yes, I feed it to them if I run out of baby brine shrimp, but only until I get more shrimp. However, I have raised apistogramma cacatouides fry on just Hikari First Bites and they were fine. The only thing is they grow slower than when on live foods. In my opinion, live foods are the way to go when raising fry. As for the temperature, anywhere between 80-86F.

Also, I told you wrong on the powder blue rams. They are raised from selectively crossbreeding electric blue rams (not GBRs) and gold rams.


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## hydrosparky

Sorry I'm asking so many questions! How long do need to quarintine the fish? Should I use preventatives such as Tetra's Lifeguard Tablets? How long should I wait to get them after I finish cycling my tank?


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## dclangford3

Not a problem, so far they've all been good ones to ask. As far as quarantine goes, it just depends. If the fish just arrived at the store when you bought it, I would quarantine for about a month. If you bought them online from someone who says they've quarantined for a month already, then you can trust them and quarantine for about a week or you can do like I do and go ahead and quarantine them for month anyway, just in case. You can use preventatives, but what I suggest is you go to aquabid.com and buy some indian almond leaves (you can get 100 for under $20). They help create a blackwater environment, and contain several preventative and medicinal substances. Dr. Robert J. Goldstein (an aquarist and environmental consultant) says, "These leaves are not simply sources of stains and tannins and other acids as we would get from oak or hickory, but rich in many other kinds of complex and highly effective chemicals with a wide range of physiological and antimicrobial effects."

As far as cycling, I would cycle for at least a couple months, preferably 3-6 months.


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## hydrosparky

I'm planning to buy the rams from Oddball Fish, because they look in good condition and the breeder seems to be one of the authentic dealers who actually care about the fish. I guess I'll get some Indian Almond Leaves from Ebay because I found cheap ones from a reccomended seller. Do rams need live or frozen food? Or can I use freeze dried foods? What do you feed your adult rams? What do you reccomend I should get for my rams (all things from plants to water conditions to inanimate objects)?


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## dclangford3

Sorry it took me so long to get back with you hydro, it has been a busy week. But as far as food goes, I feed my rams high quality flake foods with the occasional treat of live bloodworms. In my experience GBRs LOVE bloodworms, and will eat any type you give them (live, frozen, or freeze dried). As far as plants go just put whatever type fits your water conditions and lighting. For inanimate objects, get whatever you like. Make sure you research the objects before you get them though, because some can be harmful to fish and some can increase hardness/pH (limestone). For water conditions, you want your pH to be from 5.0-6.0, hardness below 12 dGH (preferably below 5 dGH) and your water temperature 27-30C/80-86F.


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## hydrosparky

So, if I get wild caught rams, what should I do to make their wild life from the river to the tank comfortable? Will the rams eat daphnia? Is euglena o.k. for the babies to eat, or is paramecium better for them? (I'm still on the fence for getting live or dry food for the babies)


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## Unicorrs

Hello dclangford3
can I put Bolivian Rams together with German Blue Rams in the same tank?
if not, is there a possibility that they can be together?
Thanks!


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## dclangford3

To make life comfortable for them just do what I mentioned above for the water parameters, use the Indian Almond leaves/driftwood to produce the tannins in your water, and have a sandy floor. And for the food I feed mine baby brine shrimp, but I'm sure both euglena and paramecium would be alright.


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## dclangford3

Unicorrs, they should be fine living with each other. I've never mixed them because I breed mine, but they would probably get along fine as long as you have plenty of caves/hiding spots in the tank. What size is your tank and how many of each are you planning on getting?


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## exbf

Hi, my GBRs just spawned again, this time on the driftwood. Is it ok to move the whole driftwood before they hatch? Or is it even okay let them hatch without any parents? Thanks.


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## geeks_15

GBR's are bad about eating their eggs and fry, so removing the parents is not a bad idea. You might want to add an airstone near the eggs to provide some water movement since the parents will not be there to fan the eggs. Snails will also eat the eggs if given the chance. For these 2 reasons I like to leave the parents with the eggs until they hatch and are wrigglers. But you run the risk of the parents eating the eggs.

Once I see wrigglers, I remove the parents and this has worked for me.

BTW, a young pair of GBR in my tank just ate their young free swimmers and laid a new set of eggs. I thought I'd give them a chance, but I guess I'll take their next batch and raise them myself.


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## Silvering

I've read here and there that blue rams like caves to hide in - what do people use for that, if anything? I've seen pics with terra-cotta pots but I'm thinking of maybe adding some small cichlid stones to my tank or something like that. 

I ended up getting more than I bargained for in a craigslist deal and now I have ten, and I'm thinking my tank isn't densely planted enough for that many! O_O


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## dclangford3

Some GBRs like caves others could care less it just depends on the fish you have. Terra-cotta pots work fine small cichlid stones would work as well, it is really up to you on the type of cave you want in your tank. As far as planting goes, it isn't a requirement when keeping GBRs to have a densely planted tank, plants just help with the quality of the water. Many people breed GBRs in bare tanks, I like to keep mine planted just to help with the water quality.


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## Endler breeder

I just got a GBR pair..


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## dclangford3

Good deal let me know if you have any questions about keeping/breeding them.


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## barclaya

what size of golden pearls are best for GBR fry. is 300 micron ok?


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## Godswill

Is it best to keep the GBRs in pairs or is that only necessary when breeding?


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## singolz

hello,
I have a couple of questions:

first off, I have a pair of GBRs in my tank the male does this.."bulldozing" action to my plants. he will sit there and flutter a bit then charge straight through my stem plants or run over my dwarf hairgrass. he hasn't acted aggressive towards any one in my tank and seems healthy, so I'm clueless. 

secondly, I put him in 2 days ago, and the female yesterday. from the second I put the female in they've been inseparable. her belly become a very hot bright pink color which I thought was a sign of aggression, but after more reading it sounds like a breeding thing. my question is: how can I coax them into breeding? my ph is a steady 6.6-6.8, temp fluctuates from 77-81 throughout day and night. I also broke a piece off of a red clay pot and put it into my tank for them to breed on since it was flat and red. any tips?
thanks in advance!
-will


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## II Knucklez II

hey i have a community 18g tank with a dwarf blue gourami, 4 fancy guppies, and 5 cardinal tetras and i wanted to put one male GBR or a male powder blue ram with them. is that a good idea? do they up root plants (planted well)? should i get a pair or just one male?
also my ph is at 7 to 7.2 i know for breeding it has to be lower but can they live in that ph range?


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## singolz

II Knucklez II said:


> hey i have a community 18g tank with a dwarf blue gourami, 4 fancy guppies, and 5 cardinal tetras and i wanted to put one male GBR or a male powder blue ram with them. is that a good idea? do they up root plants (planted well)? should i get a pair or just one male?
> also my ph is at 7 to 7.2 i know for breeding it has to be lower but can they live in that ph range?


my male uproots some of my filigrees when he digs his little breeding den. haven't seen him to be aggro towards my other fish though

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MochaLatte

I had 5 of these little guys had 2 pairs and 1 loner in a 75 gallon. I had the pairs spawn once then slowly one by one they died. The last 2 I have now laid eggs but they went bad. Never could get them to hatch. Well I had to separate the last 2 rams as one looked like it was on deaths bed. Now they both are doing awesome. Did they stress each other to death one by one?


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