# Leggy plant growth



## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I have a 125g aquarium with about 31 species of plants currently. Everything has been growing great and there is no algae in the tank except for the spot algae that begins to appear on the glass and a few leaves of slower growing plants like my Anubias. Both species of Cabomba (carolina and pulcherrima) are getting "leggy". They have great stems, but I'm seeing up to 3-4" between nodes at times. None of my other plants have this at all (L. indica is next to carolina and is not showing same behavior).

What causes this? Is it lighting primarily (too much, not enough for this specie), or something else? I EI dose, and given lack of algae outbreaks in the 2-3 months I've had this tank, I think I have the levels nailed pretty good. Lighting is 8x39w of T5 HO lighting, only run 4 bulbs at a time with a 3 hour burst/overlap period in the middle. Bulbs are Aquaticlife (love the fixture, not sure about bulbs though) 2 - 6500K, 2 - 10,000K, 4 - Roseate. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Got a picture of the leggy stems? And are these reaching the near the top of the tank yet? Legginess is normally due to low light levels. 4 bulbs gives you about 1.25 wpg on a 125, which I'd call moderate light, BUT, the tank is deep enough that the light is a fair amount weaker near the bottom half of water depth. I'd bet (unless they are already there) that as they pass that half-way point, the stems get less-leggy.

Maybe try bumping the burst/overlap to 4 hrs rather than 3.

-Dave


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

They reach the top in about 5-6 days usually. They do get shorter length between nodes right at the top as they bend and grow along top of water. I usually trim them and keep the top 1/3. They don't grow much for 2-3 days, and then in the next 2-3 they'll shoot to the top.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah, sounds like the lighting. Try the longer period of burst and see what that does.


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## wi_blue (Apr 5, 2005)

I would say your Cabomba would like more light. I have some hydro that is growing long between nodes. It grows fast though likes higher light levels than I can give it right now.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm of the mind that it's not so much high light, but uneven light that causes leggy growth among other things. I've got some wonderfully dense plants in a <1 wpg tank with some space given to them, and had the same species show miserable growth under high light with bad spread or dense growth. That being said, it does tend to be easier to get uneven light in lower light conditions.

Interspecies competition can cause leggy growth, stunting, melting and all kinds of side effects; keep an eye out for it and test for the possibility when you see strange things happening in dense portions. Most people in the hobby have observed this competition at some time or other when they look for it. Here's a thread on the subject of interspecies competition with some decent studies to go with it:
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/6053-plant-plant-competition.html

Higher current can also give you more compact growth. It's not so much that it's a requirement of dense growth, but it helps. The current its self likely makes it advantageous for the plant to retain a shorter growth span in order to decrease the level of pressure exerted on it. Much like high light, it has been observed that plants focus their growth efforts where there are high levels of nutrients. This is the sort of thing you'll find a fair bit of research on, but here's something to get you started:
http://www.jlakes.org/web/Interaction-watermovement-sediment-macrophyte-H2001.pdf

I've found the principles of compact growth are really very similar to the concepts behind healthy growth. As of late I've been looking at one as an indicator of the other, and it's proven out a good part of the time. Try messing around with these parameters and observing it for your self.

-Philosophos


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

I would just try to burst longer...


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I'll try the longer burst for now and see what that does. Also, the Roseate bulbs appear very dim compared to the 6,000K type bulbs. Is this just a visual thing or are these "specialty" type bulbs really more dim? All of the other bulbs I have besides the 6,000K appear dim. The 10,000K would be the next visually "bright" light, but the Roseate is dim. Just wondering what this does for plant growth. I thought my plant growth was good, but now I'm second guessing myself. I only have the two 6000K (I originally posted 6,700K, but that was wrong) that I consider visually "bright". The other 6 bulbs are Roseate or 10,000K. I noticed in a pet store some Hagen T5's. The 6700K had a lux of 300+ while the 18,000K had a lux of 140 or something. Seems like a huge difference but not sure what lux really means for plants (if anything).


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

Bryeman said:


> I noticed in a pet store some Hagen T5's. The 6700K had a lux of 300+ while the 18,000K had a lux of 140 or something. Seems like a huge difference but not sure what lux really means for plants (if anything).


Nevermind, I went back and read the lighting stickies and figured the lux thing (perceived brightness versus what's happening with plants).


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## woodyship (Dec 19, 2006)

Hello All, 



I used the CO2 drop checker and it is good now. its yellow-green color. 

I also, change my light, i am using now 2X150Watt Metal Hallide 6,500K

and T5 2X34Watt 10,000K

and T5 2X34Watt 6,500K

and T5 4X24Watt 6,500K

and my T5 Light are the best in market (aquamedic and AquaGlu)

and my plant are too leggy 
any help please


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

woodyship said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I used the CO2 drop checker and it is good now. its yellow-green color.
> 
> ...


All I know for sure is that when I increased my "burst period" to 4 hours with all 8x39w lights running, the plants are not reaching and leggy like they were. That seems to be the trick. I have, however, run into EI dosing issues now that I'm talking about in the fertilizer section. No algae yet, but ground cover is not spreading like it should given my lighting and my CO2 indicator is basically yellow most of the time (KH 3, pH 6.1 mostly). Just watch out on the ferts if you plan to mess with the lighting!


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## woodyship (Dec 19, 2006)

Bryeman said:


> All I know for sure is that when I increased my "burst period" to 4 hours with all 8x39w lights running, the plants are not reaching and leggy like they were. That seems to be the trick. I have, however, run into EI dosing issues now that I'm talking about in the fertilizer section. No algae yet, but ground cover is not spreading like it should given my lighting and my CO2 indicator is basically yellow most of the time (KH 3, pH 6.1 mostly). Just watch out on the ferts if you plan to mess with the lighting!


thank you very much, but i have some q's: 
*one:*what you mean by burst period to 4 hours, can you explante it more to me what you should do if you have my 134 G tank?
*two:*what is the EI dosing issues?

thanks in advance


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

woodyship said:


> thank you very much, but i have some q's:
> *one:*what you mean by burst period to 4 hours, can you explante it more to me what you should do if you have my 134 G tank?
> *two:*what is the EI dosing issues?
> 
> thanks in advance


I normally run 4 of my 8 bulbs at a time, but during the middle of my photo period I have all 8 running and I call it my burst period. Everyone's tank is different and it will depend upon the plants you intend to have. I like my T5 HO lights and would recommend them to anyone. You have to be careful to make sure your fertilizer, CO2, and water flow are in check before getting too much light though. The biggest problem in my tank (I think) is actually water flow and CO2 distribution more than anything else.


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## woodyship (Dec 19, 2006)

Bryeman said:


> I normally run 4 of my 8 bulbs at a time, but during the middle of my photo period I have all 8 running and I call it my burst period. Everyone's tank is different and it will depend upon the plants you intend to have. I like my T5 HO lights and would recommend them to anyone. You have to be careful to make sure your fertilizer, CO2, and water flow are in check before getting too much light though. The biggest problem in my tank (I think) is actually water flow and CO2 distribution more than anything else.


thank you very much, do you think that we should have a water flow ( shall i use a small wave maker)?
also, i read yesterday that my 135 Gall, needs 235 Wat, thats accourding to takashi ammano diagram. 
what do you think!


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

woodyship said:


> thank you very much, do you think that we should have a water flow ( shall i use a small wave maker)?
> also, i read yesterday that my 135 Gall, needs 235 Wat, thats accourding to takashi ammano diagram.
> what do you think!


Depends on the type of lighting you plan on having. T5 HO lights are pretty efficient, so you may not need as much lighting compared to CF's or other forms of "older" lighting.

I'm finding out that water flow is big. Others can likely steer you in the correct direction as I don't have my water flow dialed in and don't feel comfortable giving advice. I currently can move roughly 700 gallons per hour in my 125g and that's not enough for my setup. Everyone's setup and needs are different though.


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## woodyship (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm finding out that water flow is big. Others can likely steer you in the correct direction as I don't have my water flow dialed in and don't feel comfortable giving advice. I currently can move roughly 700 gallons per hour in my 125g and that's not enough for my setup. Everyone's setup and needs are different though.[/QUOTE]

You have a 125 Gal aquarium?
what is the light you have and how many watt?
I talked to my friend yesterday, and he adviced me to just add 2 150 Wat metal Halide 14000 K for my 134 Gal 
what do you think !


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

woodyship said:


> I'm finding out that water flow is big. Others can likely steer you in the correct direction as I don't have my water flow dialed in and don't feel comfortable giving advice. I currently can move roughly 700 gallons per hour in my 125g and that's not enough for my setup. Everyone's setup and needs are different though.


You have a 125 Gal aquarium?
what is the light you have and how many watt?
I talked to my friend yesterday, and he adviced me to just add 2 150 Wat metal Halide 14000 K for my 134 Gal 
what do you think ![/QUOTE]

I have 8x39w T5 HO fixture. I run my lights for a total of 10 hours. For the first 3 hours, I have 4 bulbs running, then all 8 bulbs run for the next 4 hours, and then only 4 again for the last 3 hours.

I don't have any experience with metal halide, so can't really give advice on this. For my tank, having 6x39w of T5HO lights would likely be about perfect from advice I've been given and from what I've experienced.


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