# phosporous problems!



## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

This is a situation that has been perplexing me for weeks! I went away on vacation the last week of last year. All was fine, phosphates were about 0.5ppm which is actually low by most standards, and all other levels were fine. I came back a week later with a slight hair algae problem which was probably due to possible overfeeding and a level of 0ppm phosphates. I bought some seachem flourish phospourous to handle this deficiency. On the first dose, i used the formula seachem uses. 20 ml in my 29 gallon raised it to 1ppm, which is too much to dose and the algae proved it. the algae spiked up, what seemed like overnight. 24 hours after that initial dose, the phospates had dropped to 0 again! what is going on? the hair algae has gone away since due to water changes and dosing less phosphorous. I still have 0 ppm of phosphorous but the plants are still growing rapidy and showing great coloration with me just dosing 5 ml a day. i just wonder if the same will happen to my nitrates, i dont know if im paranoid or not but the nitrates seem to be getting lower. I understand since i added pressurised co2 the plants will use more nutrients but shouldnt i be able to keep levels such as phosphorous consistent?


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

I always keep about 4-5ppm of PO4 and 30ppm of NO3 and plants are doing great. Btw, I have no algae.


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## HolyAngel (Nov 3, 2010)

The more co2 and light you use the faster they take up *everything*. 

I'm using the entire Seachem line of ferts in my 29 with highlight(96w of t5ho) and co2(soon to be pressurized) and after some time now of using them, i'm discovering if i double what seachem states in their chart for my tank, my plants grow awesome and the algae is dying pretty fast. 

Before when I only followed their chart with these lights and co2, my plants weren't really growing and I was getting a lot of BBA/Hair Algae. My tank is pretty heavily planted tho as well.

It's definitely something you'll have to experiment with, but thought i'd give you something possibly comparable to your situation.


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

my tank is very similar to yours holyangel, 29 gallon with 96 watts of t5 flourescents. 
-i did some investigation into the phosphates, it seems as of lately, the water treatment plant must have changed a filter or something because our tap water no longer contains phosphates and has almost no nitrates in it. The phosphates use to be about 1ppm coming out of the tap.
- currently i am dosing 7ml a day to compensate for the phosphorus loss, but this level still doesnt give me a 1:10 ratio of phosphourus to nitrogen. I can see that the seachem liquid ferts are going to cost lots of money to dose the way you should so ill be ordering some dry ferts such as mono-potassium phosphate and more online in the near future. I just need to do more research on mixing amounts and such. Need that kind of time though haha


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

barbarossa4122 said:


> I always keep about 4-5ppm of PO4 and 30ppm of NO3 and plants are doing great. Btw, I have no algae.


That may work well for you with your water, plants, lighting, etc.
It could spell A-L-G-A-E disaster for many other hobbyists.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

It would only be an A-L-G-A-E disaster if you had insufficient CO2, too much light. If you had those same nutrient levels posted above in a tank with high light and not enough co2/bad co2 distribution you could get algae. If you had those same numbers in a low light tank where the co2 demand isn't as great you would be fine. If those same numbers were in a high light high tech tank with plenty of co2 you'd be fine. 

It's not about excess nutrients causing algae. It's about co2 and light. Light drives growth and co2 demand. Algae appears when there is an imbalance. 

Don't worry about a 10:1 ratio. I had a hard time getting over this. If you use the E.I. method and dose enough phosphorous so that there is always an excess and enough nitrogen so that there is always an excess then your plants will thank you. Co2 injection really helps and is very important. 

Think of it as an all you can eat buffet. It doesn't matter if there is a 10:1 ratio of Pizza to Cake. As long as there is enough Pizza and Cake so that you can eat all you want without running out, it doesn't matter.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

JustLikeAPill said:


> It would only be an A-L-G-A-E disaster if you had insufficient CO2, too much light.


Wrong light, old lights, fluctuating CO2 and _different water chemistry_. Water is not all the same; other than being H2O.

This is why EI dosing doesnt work for everyone.


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## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

JustLikeAPill said:


> It would only be an A-L-G-A-E disaster if you had insufficient CO2, too much light. If you had those same nutrient levels posted above in a tank with high light and not enough co2/bad co2 distribution you could get algae. If you had those same numbers in a low light tank where the co2 demand isn't as great you would be fine. If those same numbers were in a high light high tech tank with plenty of co2 you'd be fine.
> 
> It's not about excess nutrients causing algae. It's about co2 and light. Light drives growth and co2 demand. Algae appears when there is an imbalance.
> 
> ...


This is 100% correct. It's virtually impossible to reduce ferts below that required by algae so, you might as well supply plenty of ferts for the health of your plants. Increasing CO2 as much as you can without harming animals and reducing lighting is really, the best way to fight algae.


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

JustLikeAPill said:


> Think of it as an all you can eat buffet. It doesn't matter if there is a 10:1 ratio of Pizza to Cake. As long as there is enough Pizza and Cake so that you can eat all you want without running out, it doesn't matter.


Well, except if there is so much cake you can't get to the pizza. Too much of a fertilizer can often have an impact on how other fertilizers are absorbed. Excessive potassium dosing comes to mind.


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## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

DJKronik57 said:


> Well, except if there is so much cake you can't get to the pizza. Too much of a fertilizer can often have an impact on how other fertilizers are absorbed. Excessive potassium dosing comes to mind.


How much potassium would you consider excessive?


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Newt said:


> That may work well for you with your water, plants, lighting, etc.
> It could spell A-L-G-A-E disaster for many other hobbyists.


I double + this.

Here is a fact:
I keep PO4 below 1ppm and NO3 below 15 ppm.
At these levels, my plants double in size in 2 weeks!
I've been doing this for 2 1/2 years.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

bosmahe1 said:


> How much potassium would you consider excessive?


Here is a fact: I check mine regularly and I keep it at 10 - 20 ppm. Plants grow great at this level.


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## ghostmonk (Jul 6, 2009)

Dosing excess co2 is mute. Every plant has a photosynthis saturation point beyond which it won't be able to process the nutrients no matter how much is available. P might be undetectable in tank for various reasons including uptake and precipitation. A fixed ppm / g of tank is as vague as 2wpg of light. Say i have a jungle of plants in a 20g vs a handful of stems in 100g, should i dose more nutrient and co2 in the 100g? EI and most other dosing regimes provide guidelines which are rough markers based on the assumption that the plant mass is proportionate to the tank vol. But it all varies from tank to tank so you will need to adjust it 2 your setup. 

I like what Newt says and totally disagree with the co2 algae relationship (less co2 + more light = algae disaster). Don't know why co2 is isolated from anyother nutrient. Co2 is the source for the nutrient carbon just like po4 is (one of) the source for the nutrient phosphorus. See it as raw food = c,p,n,k,fe etc to cook and fire (light) to cook them. Anyone item (even light, just like you cannot poach an egg over a BBQ grill) is out of balance mean you cannot cook the recipe you need. That's when opportunistic algae will make use of the elements and thrive.but they too have short comings, cut back one of their lifeline and they will suffer. Most easy in my mind is light. Algae in general can utilize a more wide range of light spectrum than higher plants. But each have their favorable bands. If you see particular algae in your tank, switching the bulb may do the trick. Then check nutrients as needed. If needed cut back totally on P and Fe. P is usually available in fish food and traces have some fe. Dose K and N (low) only with low traces and adjust per progress. Keep co2 steady based on the plant species and mass.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

ray-the-pilot said:


> Here is a fact: I check mine regularly and I keep it at 10 - 20 ppm. Plants grow great at this level.


I keep around 30ppm of K, 30PPM of N , 5PPM of P , 30PPM of Ca and 8PPM of Mg. I also dose lots of Iron via DTPA, Fe Gluconate, CSM and Miller. No algae with DC yellow almost all day.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

barbarossa4122 said:


> I keep around 30ppm of K, 30PPM of N , 5PPM of P , 30PPM of Ca and 8PPM of Mg. I also dose lots of Iron via DTPA, Fe Gluconate, CSM and Miller. No algae with DC yellow almost all day.


Do you test for all of these or are they based on a dosing regimen?


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

ray-the-pilot said:


> Do you test for all of these or are they based on a dosing regimen?


Only test for P and N, the rest dosing regime.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

barbarossa4122 said:


> Only test for P and N, the rest dosing regime.


I check for everything but only dose K,P,N, Fe and other micros. I add Ca and Mg from my city water, which I mix 1 to 3 with RO water. This results in a good GH and ratio of Ca/Mg so I don't check Ca and Mg that often. 
I use commercial tests when available and reliable. I also develop my own tests when I need to. This is part of the hobby that I enjoy.


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## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

ghostmonk said:


> Dosing excess co2 is mute. Every plant has a photosynthis saturation point beyond which it won't be able to process the nutrients no matter how much is available. P might be undetectable in tank for various reasons including uptake and precipitation. A fixed ppm / g of tank is as vague as 2wpg of light. Say i have a jungle of plants in a 20g vs a handful of stems in 100g, should i dose more nutrient and co2 in the 100g? EI and most other dosing regimes provide guidelines which are rough markers based on the assumption that the plant mass is proportionate to the tank vol. But it all varies from tank to tank so you will need to adjust it 2 your setup.
> 
> I like what Newt says and totally disagree with the co2 algae relationship (less co2 + more light = algae disaster). Don't know why co2 is isolated from anyother nutrient. Co2 is the source for the nutrient carbon just like po4 is (one of) the source for the nutrient phosphorus. See it as raw food = c,p,n,k,fe etc to cook and fire (light) to cook them. Anyone item (even light, just like you cannot poach an egg over a BBQ grill) is out of balance mean you cannot cook the recipe you need. That's when opportunistic algae will make use of the elements and thrive.but they too have short comings, cut back one of their lifeline and they will suffer. Most easy in my mind is light. Algae in general can utilize a more wide range of light spectrum than higher plants. But each have their favorable bands. If you see particular algae in your tank, switching the bulb may do the trick. Then check nutrients as needed. If needed cut back totally on P and Fe. P is usually available in fish food and traces have some fe. Dose K and N (low) only with low traces and adjust per progress. Keep co2 steady based on the plant species and mass.


Plants are very adaptable, they don't need things in a specific ratio. EI gives them more than minimum, no ratio needed. Plants will take what they need. If your plants require .5 ppm of phosphorus for a given amount of light, and you provide 4 ppm, this won't cause algae anymore than .25 ppm would. Crank up the CO2 within safe limits for animals, provide nutrients beyond minimum, provide sufficient current to move nutrients and CO2, reduce light, learn EI and light management from the www.barrreport.com.


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## bosmahe1 (May 14, 2005)

ray-the-pilot said:


> Here is a fact: I check mine regularly and I keep it at 10 - 20 ppm. Plants grow great at this level.


Nothing excessive about that.


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