# [Wet Thumb Forum]-New light, new Laterite, now on to the ferts!



## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

So I have this 25 gallon tank that's been set up for about two years now with 1.5 wpg, no ferts and a DIY CO2 set up. You can see the co2 hose leading into my underwater filter in this pic of my tank taken last week.
 

With that set up I've been able to grow some hygro polysperma, java moss(on my driftwood) and a couple other low light stem plants. But now that I'm done school I have a bit more time and money to invest in upgrading my tank.

I just orderd the 1x55 watt Bright Kit from AH and put about an inch of Laterite on the bottom layer of my substrate. As soon as the lights are up and running it will be time for the midium light plants to go in and the ferts.

My question is instead of doing a complete PMDD would I be able to get away with using Flourish and just adding the stuff it lacks? Here is the Guaranteed Analysis of Flourish
Total Nitrogen 0.07% 
Available Phosphate ( P2O5) 0.01% 
Soluble Potash 0.37% 
Calcium (Ca) 0.14% 
Magnesium (Mg) 0.11% 
Sulfur (S) 0.2773% 
Boron (B) 0.009% 
Chlorine (Cl) 1.15% 
Cobalt (Co) 0.0004% 
Copper (Cu) 0.0001% 
Iron (Fe) 0.32% 
Manganese (Mn) 0.0118% 
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009% 
Sodium (Na) 0.13% 
Zinc (Zn) 0.0007%

I know it's missing a few key ingredients. Could you guys help me with what else I would need? And would this even be possible?


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

flurish is a great source of micro nutrients. the other key ingredients you will need are: no3, po4, mg, ca, and k.

you should check out http://www.gregwatson.com . he sells bulk powder fertilizers for around $1 a pound, and a pound should last you at least a couple of years.

what you should look at buying: kh2po4 (for po4) calcium carbonate (for ca) mgso4 (for mg) kno3 (for k and no3) k2so4 (for k)

these should only run you about 20 bucks with shipping, and like i said, they will last a long time. we can also help you with the mixtures.

there are other routes of adding these fertilizers, but this is the cheapest and it is the easiest to customize to your tank's needs.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

You may not need to add anything in addition to the Flourish Comprehensive, depending on the growth rate in your tank, the nature of your water supply and the fish load in your tank.

I have several tanks that I fertilize primarily with Flourish. Every few weeks I add a little potassium nitrate to boost both nitrogen and potassium. If your water supply is very soft then you may also need to add calcium and magnesium.

I don't use Flourish in tanks with high growth rates. In those cases I feel like the required dose of Flourish Comprehensive is too large to be cost effective. For those tanks I use daily doses of Flourish Iron and Flourish Trace and potassium nitrate added once or twice a week.



Roger Miller


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

I just tested my water with my master test kit and got the following.

PH: 6
GH: Soft (around 60)
KH: Low (under 10mg/L)ppm

I guess I'll have to add Calcium and Magnesium.
My fish load is quite moderate for the amount of filtration I have on the tank. I have 6 tiger barbs, 3 corydoras and 6 ottos. I feed them twice a day with flakes and put in a sinking tablet for the corys once a week. I also put in a piece of zucchini in for the otto's to munch on once a week. (I hardly have any soft algae at all for them)


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

You may not need to worry about calcium and magnesium; 60 ppm of hardness can often provide enough of both. Your pH and KH are very low. You might want to add bicarb to increase the KH. pH will rise with KH.

Is your water supply from a well or is it a municipal supply? A pH of 6 is usually undesirable in municipal supplies because it promotes corrosion and can cause elevated levels of metals like copper and lead that come from pipes and solder. If you're on a water utility then you might talk to them about the low pH. They could have procedures in place to correct the pH which are currently not working.

If your water supply is from a private well then you're on your own.


Roger Miller


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

Well I just tested the water out of my tap that has been aged for about 24 hours. The Ph is around 7.2

Is it possible that my co2 alone is lowering my ph down to 6? I use the DIY yeast method. I also add about a teaspoon of baking soda to the mixture, because I heard it causes less of a ph swing with the added co2 in the water.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

KH and CO2 together normally determine the pH. The pH rose when the water aged because CO2 escaped from the water. Many water systems treat their water to remove CO2 before they send it through their pipes. That keeps the pH high, reduces corrosion and reduces the tendency to get elevated metal concentrations.

Adding baking soda to your DIY yeast mix might help the mix, but it doesn't do anything for the pH in your aquarium. If you want to increase the pH in your tank then you need to add the baking soda to your aquarium water.

Increasing KH will increase the pH but -- oddly -- it doesn't change the variation in pH. That is a common misstatement. The variation in pH between two different CO2 levels depends only on the ratio between the two CO2 levels, not at all on the KH.


Roger Miller


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

yea. The water out of the tap is about 7 and aged it goes up a bit.

So my KH is really low and my water is soft. I'm at about 20 ppm of CO2 so thats fine.
What do you think I should do? 
Will anything change when I bump up the watts to 2.5?
Also why does the ph in my water go down so much when I put it in my tank? Liike right now I have a bucket of aged water at 7.2 But when I put it in my tank it will drop to 6. Al I'm doing is running co2 at the momment.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

is there anything in your tank that could lower the ph? like some chemical or weird driftwood or rock?


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

No. I only have driftwood that was bought at a petstore. Don't use any chemicals


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Roger,

Could you please explain what could be wrong with a very low KH? Please focus on a high light/co2 injected tank,

Thanks,

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Aviel,

The main problem with a low KH is that you can't have an appreciable CO2 level in the tank without the pH going very low.

JayJay, so it sounds like your water supply is actually fine and it's your tank water that has the low pH. Your driftwood -- or more probably, fungus growing in the driftwood -- can cause the pH to drop. If that is the case then your CO2 levels may not be as high as they appear to be.


Roger Miller


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> 
> The main problem with a low KH is that you can't have an appreciable CO2 level in the tank without the pH going very low.
> 
> Roger Miller


And what's the main problem with KH=1 and PH=5.8 ??

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

A rather large number of fish and invertebrates don't thrive in low pH water -- e.g. snails, many shrimp, new world livebearers and many African cichlids. If you aren't keeping those anmials then maybe that isn't a problem. Many bacteria also don't function well at low pH, while many fungi do. Metals are also more toxic at low pH. Moderate pH and the KH that normally goes with it offer a degree of safety when you dose your tank with metals.

Under natural conditions low pH tends to suppress bacterial action and slow or stop all nutrient cycles. The rate of biological activity and nutrient turnover drops as the pH falls and ponds and lakes with pH much below 5 are essentially sterile. They support only a few organisms that are specifically adapted to live under those conditions. That is one reason why "acid rain" is such a problem.

You don't have to depend on biological systems to keep an aquarium. You can use sterile growing media; UV to kill anything in the water; frequent large water changes with water that is stripped of it's natural ingredients; water that is fortified with a tailor made suite of chemicals and dosed with biotoxins to suppress the fungi and other oddities that tend to thrive at low pH. In that case, maybe you don't care what the pH is.

Over all moderate pH and the KH that usually goes along with it supports a wider variety of life than does low pH water and it does it *way* more easily.


Roger Miller


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

So what do you suggest I i do when I set up my new lighting? Should I start with trying to get my KH and PH higher?


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i think you should up you kh a bit for starts and then see how that goes.

kh is a combination of mg and ca, so if you have bulk ferts, add calcium carbonate and magneesium sulfate. if not, try to find somthing in a store that raises kh.

that's what i would do, but wait for roger to respond before you do it, he usually has a better idea







he has been at this far longer that i have.


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## Firochromis (Jul 8, 2005)

> kh is a combination of mg and ca, so if you have bulk ferts, add calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate. if not, try to find somthing in a store that raises kh.


Hi, I think GH is a combination of Ca and Mg (mostly Ca). KH is a combination of carbonates and bicarbonates (mostly bicarbonates in aquarium conditions). To raise both GH and KH, CaCO3 can be used. Ca will increase GH; and CO3 will form HCO3 and that will increase KH. To raise just KH, NaHCO3 can be used.









Regards,


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