# Hard water crypts



## mrbelvedere138

Can anyone give a complete list of cryptocoryne species that will thrive in hard (high GH, high KH) water?


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## HeyPK

C. affinis, C. aponogetifolia, C. crispatula balansae, C. usteriana are all said to do well in hard water. I don't think that hard water bothers many of the Sri Lankan crypts, such as C. wendtii, C. beckettii, C. walkeri and C. undulata. There are some C. cordata varieties (those with the most polyploidy) that do all right in hard water, and others that don't. That's all I can think of now. There may be some I have missed.


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## PaiNai

*"Cave" crypts*

Not the full list, just some remarks and observations. Collecting and/or observing crypts in their natural karstic (hard water) environement is a great way to make travelling in South East Asia more amusing: 
Cryptocorynes cilliata grows submerged in dense patches in Khlong Song Nam in Thailand, Krabi province. Locality first described by Jacobsen in place in AQUA PLANTA 2 / 2005. Here, a karst spring at the feet of the cone karst mountains gives rise to a stream with strong current of clean bluish water. Soon it gets into a transition mangrove zone with marshy tidal pools. Crypts grow richly both submerged in the current and also emerged around it. Charming, unusal sight. In the same province, a deep karst plunge has its floor „carpeted" with C. cordata (water analysis from 1997 and 2005 available). Very clean water with very high Ca content. Various crypts of the Crispatula group ( would not dare to ID the exact subspecie) are rather frequent sight in nearly all clean karstic springs, or clean karstic rivers in Indochina, for instance in Vang Vieng (N. Laos) in Nam Hin Boun /Central Laos) amd elsewhere in Thailand. In Phillipines I collected C. aponogetifolia in a streeam close to Calabidongan limestone cave, Albay province, Luzon. Hard water environement seems much more frequent in tropical Asia than people admitt ..


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## mrbelvedere138

Okay. So far we have:

C. affinis
C. beckettii
C. wendtii
C. aponogetifolia
C. usteriana
C. undulata
C. walkerii
C. cordata (unsure if the different varieties will)
C. crispatula (unsure on varieties)
C. ciliata

Keep em coming.


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## rs79

Also C. pontiderifolia, retrospirlis, nevelii, Xwilssii.

Not sure I agree about cordata. If somebody has a form that likes hrd water I'd like a cutting! In fact MOST do seem to do ok. It's just the peat bog forms that are fussy.


Richard


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## HeyPK

PaiNai's post about all the hard water springs in S.E. Asia reminds me that the two well known places in the United States where escaped Crypts flourish---Rainbow River, Florida, and the San Marcos River, Texas both arise as limestone springs.

_C. beckettii_ in the San Marcos river


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## DelawareJim

Wow I've got to go snorkeling in the San Marcos next time I'm down to San Antonio. I think the Rainbow is a must stop for the GWAPA Florida excursion too, eh Sean?

Cheers.
Jim


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## HeyPK

They are very protective of a rare variety of wild rice that grows in the upper regions of the San Marcos river. You must be careful not to uproot or damage any of that. The C. beckettii is a mile or two further down the river, and when I was there in 2004, there was a project going to remove the crypts because they thought the crypts were a threat to the wild rice. As far as I could tell, all the wild rice was growing quite a ways upstream of where the crypts began to show up. .


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## AaronT

You can add bullosa and keei to the list too.

I've found that the hard water Crypts really benefit from fast flowing water too.


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## mrbelvedere138

Bullosa and keei? Surely you jest! 

In all seriousness, I'm rather surprised. I was under the impression they were the "peat bog" sort of crypt.

Updated (and alphabetized!!)

C. affinis
C. aponogetifolia
C. beckettii
C. bullosa
C. ciliata
C. cordata (unsure if the different varieties will)
C. crispatula (unsure on varieties)
C. keei
C. undulata
C. usteriana
C. walkerii
C. wendtii (all varieties to my limited knowledge)


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## AaronT

Yes, definitely bullosa and keei. I tried keei in my peat setup and it promptly melted away on me.


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## Bert H

kh 9-10, gh12 here. Along with C. wendtii, I also have C. spiralis and C. willisi x lucens.


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## Kai Witte

> You can add bullosa and keei to the list too.


This includes striolata and, by affiliation, auriculata. However, these crypts (or, at least, many strains) are very different from the usual limestone/karst crypts and **much** more difficult to grow/propagate than the other listed crypts. I'd strongly recommend to keep them in a separate category to avoid them being killed by enthusiastic buyers. There's a lot of habitat information and pics of collecting localities published or even available on the net and I'd hope that folks tap that these sources before resorting to trial and error testing with crypts collected from nature...



> I've found that the hard water Crypts really benefit from fast flowing water too.


Yes, if any submersed crypt doesn't grow as nicely as expected, increasing the current can help to overcome some problems.


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## mrbelvedere138

Kai, when you say they are different, how so? 

Further updated:

C. affinis
C. aponogetifolia
C. auriculata
C. beckettii
C. bullosa
C. ciliata
C. cordata (unsure if the different varieties will)
C. crispatula (unsure on varieties)
C. keei
C. spiralis
C. striolata
C. undulata
C. usteriana
C. walkerii
C. wendtii (all varieties to my limited knowledge)
C. willisi x "lucens"


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## Xema

I don´t agree with keei, bullosa and striolata as hard water typical crypt. According with fild report of Sasaki:

Cryptocoryne keei from Bau
pH 7,6
kH 1
gH 6
EC: 152 microS/cm aprox

Cryptocoryne bullosa sasaki M-SABS

pH 6,9
EC: 15 microS/cm (that is pure water!!)

I think they are neutral plant about pH but needing quite soft water...


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## Kai Witte

Hello Xema,

Well, you have to consider the context when evaluating measurements: There is so much rainfall in Sarawak (almost every day), that the water at the keei type locality is actually "ultra-hard" - i.e. about as hard as water gets in Sarawak! The stream is inhabited by organisms which are rather indifferent to a wide range of water parameters (for example occuring in pure rainwater as well as in calcareous water) and specialized organisms which are only occuring in water with notable amounts of dissolved calciumcarbonates. Needless to say that the Bau area is famous for its limestone outcrops which harbor a lot of endemic plants (of which keei is one) and animals. Such limestone habitats are not exceedingly rare in Southeast Asia but their geology usually makes them natural islands in vast ecosystems with very low calcium availability.

Apparently, keei is also one of these limestone plants and most likely dependant on reasonable calcium availability. OTOH, it may not fare well in extremely hard water as not rarely found in our temperate countries. My keei are growing reasonably well but I still need to experiment to provide optimum growing conditions.

The case for striolata and bullosa is a bit more difficult and I'll comment on them later...


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## gf225

I have C. parva doing well in GH 14, KH 7.


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## mrbelvedere138

Further updated:

C. affinis
C. aponogetifolia
C. auriculata
C. beckettii
C. bullosa (special case, more information needed)
C. ciliata
C. cordata (unsure if the different varieties will)
C. crispatula (unsure on varieties, balansae does)
C. keei (special case, more information needed)
C. parva
C. spiralis
C. striolata
C. undulata
C. usteriana
C. walkerii
C. wendtii (all varieties to my limited knowledge)
C. willisi x "lucens"
C. willisi


Can we add C. huduroi to the list?


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## rs79

Please add pontiderifolia. It grows on limestone and does spectacularly well in the liquid rock here that passes for tapwater.


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## mrbelvedere138

rs79 said:


> Please add pontiderifolia. It grows on limestone and does spectacularly well in the liquid rock here that passes for tapwater.


Can do.

C. affinis
C. aponogetifolia
C. auriculata
C. beckettii
C. bullosa (special case, more information needed)
C. ciliata
C. cordata (unsure if the different varieties will)
C. crispatula (unsure on varieties, balansae does)
C. keei (special case, more information needed)
C. parva
C. pontederiifolia
C. spiralis
C. striolata
C. undulata
C. usteriana
C. walkerii
C. wendtii (all varieties to my limited knowledge)
C. willisi x "lucens"
C. willisi


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## bharada

You can add moehlmannii and pygmaea to the list. At least that's been my experience.

C. cordata 'Rosanervig' is the only Crypt I've kept that did not flourish in my hard water. only when I moved it into a tank with AquaSoil softening the water did it start to put out any growth for me.


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## rs79

I'm almost wondering if it woudln't be easier to list species that don't grow in hard water. Cordata would be at the top of that list I'd think.


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## mrbelvedere138

rs79 said:


> I'm almost wondering if it woudln't be easier to list species that don't grow in hard water. Cordata would be at the top of that list I'd think.


I am not sure of that. It seems to me that perhaps the majority are true blackwater plants. When you say cordata do you mean Cryptocoryne cordata var. cordata?


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## SCMurphy

C. cordata var. cordata (blassii) does well in a substrate with some dolomite in it, I've had it flower underwater.


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## rs79

The crypts that do best for me are the ones that live on a limestone substrate. Cordata does the worst. My water is very very hard. Doesn't matter which cordata, although grabowski does the least badly for me COR COR the worst.

I can grow them but they're the lesat vigorous and are set back if you think bad thoughts about them at the least.


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## ianmoede

*Re: "Cave" crypts*



PaiNai said:


> Not the full list, just some remarks and observations. Collecting and/or observing crypts in their natural karstic (hard water) environement is a great way to make travelling in South East Asia more amusing:
> Cryptocorynes cilliata grows submerged in dense patches in Khlong Song Nam in Thailand, Krabi province. Locality first described by Jacobsen in place in AQUA PLANTA 2 / 2005. Here, a karst spring at the feet of the cone karst mountains gives rise to a stream with strong current of clean bluish water. Soon it gets into a transition mangrove zone with marshy tidal pools. Crypts grow richly both submerged in the current and also emerged around it. Charming, unusal sight. In the same province, a deep karst plunge has its floor „carpeted" with C. cordata (water analysis from 1997 and 2005 available). Very clean water with very high Ca content. Various crypts of the Crispatula group ( would not dare to ID the exact subspecie) are rather frequent sight in nearly all clean karstic springs, or clean karstic rivers in Indochina, for instance in Vang Vieng (N. Laos) in Nam Hin Boun /Central Laos) amd elsewhere in Thailand. In Phillipines I collected C. aponogetifolia in a streeam close to Calabidongan limestone cave, Albay province, Luzon. Hard water environement seems much more frequent in tropical Asia than people admitt ..


Crypts are karstic? Imagine that! They should get along great in texas, florida, the bahamas, or italy then  /geologist


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## Kai Witte

Hello Richard,

C. cordata var. cordata is possibly the crypt with the most divergent habitats: there are true blackwater strains from highly acid peat swamps, loads of freshwater swamp strains as well as from streams with pure rain water (many of these do ok in tapwater aquaria), and also quite a few strains from streams with calcareous water (including spring pools in karst formations) which are most likely to grow well in tapwater aquaria. It stands to reason that successful strains in the aquarium hobby (including "siamensis" and "blassii") are likely to have originated from habitats with water chemistry resembling tapwater conditions.

I'm convinced that your "grabowskii" is misidentified and probably a giant strain of cordata var. cordata. Make sure to send Sean a few runners so that he can bring some with him to the ECS meeting - I definitely want to see this strain flowering!


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## rs79

The bad news is I don't have that plant any more. The good news is I now know what crypts can survive close to freezing temperatures.

I'll see what I can do though.


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