# sand n gravel



## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

first want to say hi to everyone im new hear,
I have been keeping fish for years and have allways used plastic plants as mostly kept big cichlids now I have a community tank with smaller fish i have decided to try real plants, I have got about 10 plants in at the moment but have bin reading up on planted tanks and everyone sayin you cant grow plants in gravel , i have play sand with a layer of small gravel over the top will all my plants die?
if i have to change out the sand and gravel for something eles how could this be done in a tank that is allready set up?


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

You should be fine, Whatever works...works. If the plants you have do OK try some more species until you learn what works for you.

The cheapest way to get started is to try adding some Excel or other liquid carbon source. All the rest is icing on the cake, expensive (and in my opinion worth it) but the slower you go, if you can keep the addiction under control, the more money you save. The constant, never ending, learning helps too and it takes time.

There is no need to change anything at the moment. When the time comes just buy a new 10 and switch it over. It's faster and easier and fairly cheap too. Besides the extra 10 will be very useful.

Do some reading. The Walstad book is a good start and do not disregard the NET and Forums. With a little caution and diligence it is by far the most up to date and comprehensive tool you can find.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Welcome to APC 

I would not worry much about the substrate. Having the proper lighting is far more important. Also make sure to start a regular fertilization schedule.

Here is a good site for the beginner... http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/01_intro.html


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## jag428 (Mar 8, 2007)

Dido on the last post lighting is far more important than substrata.
But if you want to spice up the substrata just add some fuller's earth.
Add it very slowly by hand over several days and just mix it in to what you have already


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

jag428 said:


> Dido on the last post lighting is far more important than substrata.
> But if you want to spice up the substrata just add some fuller's earth.
> Add it very slowly by hand over several days and just mix it in to what you have already


What would you gain by adding fullers earth, a clay? I think if I wanted some nutrients in a sand/gravel substrate I would get some substrate fertilizer tablets and place a few of those in the substrate.


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

I screwed up. Sorry.

I saw the ten in your post and somehow my brain keyed on ten gallon tank.

What size tank are you talking about anyway. Just out of curiosity.

The advice still holds for any size tank. After you add up all the costs the actual aquarium costs are not too great, as you probably already know. I have always thought fifteens and twenty highs were useful sizes, especially for a fish room. The price difference from one tank to another is usually minimal. Tank selection for planted tanks is usually made based on space available, the biggest possible, room for plants and rocks and availability of light fixture sizes, although not always, there are as many different reasons as to why anything is done in this Hobby as there are people.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

toxic69 said:


> first want to say hi to everyone im new hear,
> I have been keeping fish for years and have allways used plastic plants as mostly kept big cichlids now I have a community tank with smaller fish i have decided to try real plants, I have got about 10 plants in at the moment but have bin reading up on planted tanks and everyone sayin you cant grow plants in gravel , i have play sand with a layer of small gravel over the top will all my plants die?
> if i have to change out the sand and gravel for something eles how could this be done in a tank that is allready set up?


I found the whole issue and debate around substrates interesting. When it is all said and done, you really have to look at what people have successfully grown plants in and not listen to people who say you should not do this or that or it won't work. As a newbie, I heard that way too many times, and so have reached a point of testing things for myself and seeing what happens, otherwise I find myself getting got up in endless debates about what works and what does not. I also spoke to people in my city who had tanks for years and surprisingly many of those had succesfully grown their plants in nothing more than pool filter sand or specialized Hagen Geosystem sand.

I have a 2.5 gallon high tech tank with DIY C02, after about 4 months it is finally algae free and appears to have achieved that magical balance. I use Schultz Aquatic soil(which is made from fuller's earth) as a substrate. The plants seem to all be growing well.

I have a 2 10 gallon tanks one has fluorite only and the other has Scultz Aquatic Soil. Plants are growing well in both tanks with no major algae. The Schultz Aquatic Soil was $7. The Fluorite was almost 6 times as expensive for half the amount. I would not choose fluorite over Schultz Aquatic Soil as I cannot see the justification of paying that much more for a substrate when I am getting equally good plant growth with the cheaper substrate.

I just set up 3 additional experimental tanks. One 5 gallon hex tank as per Diana Walstead's natural planted tank concept using cheap top soil capped with gravel(traction sand). The other, a low light, low maintenance, non c02 injected 5 gallon with mulm, leonardite, and Seachem Onyx sand. And the other a low light, low maintenance, non c02 injected 3 gallon with mulm, leonardite, and Tahitian Moon Sand instead of Onyx sand(this one is to give my catfish at work a bigger and better home and perhaps additional company). It is too early to say how these tanks will perform over the long term.

Gravel Ferts under an inert substrate are a great idea. I have heard excellent things from people who used Seachem Flourish substrate fert tabs.


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## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

thank you good replys everyone, your right i didnt say what size tank it was its a 35 gallon i got 10 plants in it right now, Its low light but is next to my window so gets a few hours of day light, Its pretty over stocked but not over crowded i dont go for the inch of fish per gallon rule as think thats way out dated , Im going to see how the plants i have in take and see what i may need to add to the tank when the time comes, I like the idea of adding fert to the gravel rather than swap it all out so i will look into that, as for the lights and co2 i will see if i need them, Im not worryed about not getting lots of growth quick just want to keep the plants alive really, I will post back and tell how the plants I have get on and no doubt be askin for more advice


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

I forgot to mention some plants like aponogentons and tiger lotuses are beautiful, they can grow in low light, are not as sensitive to water parameters and do well without c02 injection. They pretty much grow from nutrients stored in the bulb. They are not particular about substrates. You really cannot go wrong with these and they will soon outgrow your tank if you don't keep them pruned. You may want to consider adding a few of these if you look at adding more plants in the future.


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

I do not understand the difference between overstocking and overcrowding. You are correct about the old inch of fish per gallon rule which is probably well over fifty years old. The rule made more sense back then with the type of fish and equipment available, but even then it was a bit iffy.

For a various reasons a lot of planted tanks are way understocked but with the right kind of husbandry a tank can be jammed up for extended periods, just don't count on it being stable, as all fish are individuals. What works for one situation will not necessarily work in another.


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## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

when i said overstocked not overcrowded i ment i got more fish than the inch per gallon rule by not over crowded i ment i have no fish that will out grow my tank, I think that rule was made back when people had under gravel filters powered by air pumps but now you can filter the whole tanks volume many times in an hour and can easy break that rule with no harm done.I can see why some people keep planted tanks understocked as the tanks look fantastic and have alot of work gon into the aquascape so dont want the fish to mess that up,your right about not counting on it being stable if i have lurnt one think over the years keeping fish is that every thing is fluid and you make many changes along the way.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

You can't go by the inch per gallon rule anyways, it's more or less useless. What you need to look at is the body mass of the fish, this determines how much waste the fish produce and that is what you need to go by when stocking a tank.

When you have a heavily planted tank this is going to help process the fish waste so you can get by with more fish mass. Then when you add in over filtration & frequent water changes, more fish mass can be added. But still I would never recommend over stocking a tank. You also have to take into consideration the needs of the fish, adult size, aggressivness etc.


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## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

as far as fish go i have tiger barbs some tetras and some dwarf cichlids nothing thats going to get big or too agressive, I do 20% water change every other day do i need to do less now i have plants is it gonna be tricky to find a balance to keep both plants and fish happy?
I will look for the plant sugested that grows from a bulb sounds good to me also will look for some floting ones maybe, I noticed the other day that most of the plants i had was in bundles so i have taken them out of the pots they came in and seporated them and managed to spred them out more the tank is looking great all planted i wont ever go back to plastic plants now thats for sure.


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## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

just a bit of an update , I had an old bed side light that i have taken apart and fixed to the hood of my tank to provide a bit more light looks pretty cool an i guess it all helps a bit got room for another also if i can find one lol, I went to a diy store the other day and i could get a big bag of top soil and a big bag of gravel for under five quid so if i do decide to change out what i have i can do it pretty cheep so thats good also i think if i do change i will get the 50 gal i have empty in my dads garage and set it up as a new tank and move every thing over, will see how the plant do in this tank first tho.


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## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

just another update, I swaped out the old play sand and gravel as it looked a mess i guess you get what you pay for with play sand lol , and now just have a fine black gravel have decided that is better to have a good looking substraight and add ferts if needed rather than take the risk of stuff getting mixed up and looking a mess i have bin using tetra plant plantmin to add a bit of fertiliser but got a bit of reading up on ferts still to do and have bin looking for root tabs but not seen any in the shops round hear yet, so far all my plants are doing well and still alive some have even started to grow and sprout new plants so thats gotta be good,As far as lighting goes im still doing ok with the strip light i got with the tank its a marine glow one tho as this used to be a salt water tank and the house light bulb that i fixed to the hood of my tank but im hinting to my girlfriend that i want some new lights for xmass lol, I have put a pic of my tank as my profile pic so if any of you can help id any of the plants and any tips for them that would be helpfull i have looked a few of them up but not found info on all of them ,sorry the pic isnt that good but was taken with my phone.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

toxic69 said:


> just a bit of an update , I had an old bed side light that i have taken apart and fixed to the hood of my tank to provide a bit more light looks pretty cool an i guess it all helps a bit got room for another also if i can find one lol, I went to a diy store the other day and i could get a big bag of top soil and a big bag of gravel for under five quid so if i do decide to change out what i have i can do it pretty cheep so thats good also i think if i do change i will get the 50 gal i have empty in my dads garage and set it up as a new tank and move every thing over, will see how the plant do in this tank first tho.


I tried peastone over dirt and it didn't hold the dirt down. Thus make sure the gravel is 2 to 4mm. I found pool sand reasonably priced and it is easy to work with. Moving plants only caused water to be cloudy for a day.

Another cheap idea is to go to a river for sand. HeyPK and rs79 have used this. It is free but has to be prepped with boiling water. For dangerous little living items may reside in it.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

toxic69 said:


> just a bit of an update , I had an old bed side light that i have taken apart and fixed to the hood of my tank to provide a bit more light looks pretty cool an i guess it all helps a bit got room for another also if i can find one lol, I went to a diy store the other day and i could get a big bag of top soil and a big bag of gravel for under five quid so if i do decide to change out what i have i can do it pretty cheep so thats good also i think if i do change i will get the 50 gal i have empty in my dads garage and set it up as a new tank and move every thing over, will see how the plant do in this tank first tho.


Hope you have a screw in flouresant bulb in that. For incadesant bulbs can over heat the tank. Wal-mart has them for $5.


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## toxic69 (Nov 7, 2007)

yes its one of them energy saving ones that dont get to hot , I didnt want to take the chance of any water splashing on it and bursting the bulb last thing i wanted was to be picking broken bits of bulb out of the tank lol


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