# growth problems (twisted leaves, etc)



## Cavan Allen

Hi all,

I've been having some issues with my 40 breeder that I just can't seem to figure out. In the recent past, I had a big problem with BBA, which I've pretty much solved. But now, even though the tank is largely healthy, I've got some plants that just aren't right. _Alternanthera reineckii_ (removed) was growing leaves that looked OK at first but became folded down at the sides as the whole leaf curved to one side. Other than that, color was great and it kept growing. Same issue with _Ludwigia glandulosa_. A new _Ludwigia_ hybrid I collected has leaves that curl down at the edges and twist. Common theme, as you can see. A while back I had _L. arcuata_ with strangely bent and twisted leaves, but that was before the "improved" conditions I have now. _Limnophila _sp. 'Belem' (a RIDICULOUS name, as it's strictly an Old World genus) likewise has leaves that curl down but also in pretty much any direction in addition to weird forked tips. It grows fast but is generally a mess. I have regular _Hygrophila polysperma_ that formerly looked really ratty and full of pinholes lower down before I cranked the co2 and added more N. I haven't seen this in a bit, but some leaves had an odd sudden kink and hole along the midrib.

It's probably worth mentioning that I had some of the small form _Limnophila aromatica_ that was pale and chlorotic looking that got fixed after adding Flourish Trace. Some _Pogostemon helferi_ pretty much stunted when I got it but is recovering. _Tonina_ doing well, as do all _Bucephelandra_ (grow all those like weeds) and crypts. _Riccardia_ and _Myriophyllum_ sp. 'Guyana" (an explosive grower) do fine. But pretty much anything that has the potential to grow funky does.









Alternanthera reineckii









Removed leaves









Downcurved leaves

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Water is reconstituted RO. I've had better results with it than the tap water here. Currently, I use a 50/50 mix of Seachem Equilibrium and Aquavitro Mineralize. GH is 6 and kH is 2.

For traces, I'm currently using Flourish, Flourish Iron and Flourish Trace at the recommended levels. In my case, that's 6.5mls of Flourish, 1.25mls Flourish Iron and 20mls of the Trace weekly. Trace two days and Flourish two days. Iron in smaller amounts daily. In the past, I dosed much more heavily, always with Seachem stuff (for a while, Aquavitro Envy) and at one point, 10mls a day.

I add potassium sulfate for K daily, and possibly too much. I'll get into that later. For N, I use Flourish Nitrogen. 9mls the first day after the weekly water change and 5mls daily the rest of the time. Potassium phosphate (dry dosed) .45g the first day and .25 daily other days. I was until recently not adding even close to enough N. Currently, I'm adding 17ppm weekly. Before that, it was 12.64 and before that, even lower. Some clear leaf margins on Nymphaea were fixed when I got on top of that.

Lighting is a fixture I made with RapidLED parts. 24LEDs with 4 blue and the rest a mix of (I think because it's been a while) warm and neutral whites. If turned up all the way (and it is now), PAR at substrate is about 150ish with no lenses on.

Substrate is mostly a mix of Flourite Black and Soilmaster. I will never use the latter again because it's so light. Much of the foreground is pool filter sand; that area was formerly the same as the rest.

Filtration is a Rena Filstar XP2 and a Fluval 306. The Fluval has a surface skimmer attached to the inlet. Plenty of flow in the tank. A few hours after the lights go out, I have an airstone running the rest of the night until when the co2 comes on an hour before the lights.

Co2 is maxed out. It was definitely not enough until recently but now should be. 4mls of Excel added every morning on top of that.

The tank itself is about five years old in its current iteration.

Stocking levels are low. 12 lampeyes, 7 _Corydoras habrosus_, a Farlowella and a geriatric, 8 year old glowlight tetra. Also a wood shrimp and a ton of Malawa shrimp.

Currently adding in PPM per week:
N-17ppm
P- 8.99ppm
K-37.88ppm
Fe-.7ppm

I know that's a lot of phosphate. If I back off of it I get a green haze on the glass. But really, there's not really any algae otherwise other than some of the non-attaching Cladophora in tiny, inconsequential quantities (but an indicator of high P, I know). I've pretty much eradicated the BBA.

Without the potassium sulfate, I'm at just over 29ppm a week with all the other K sources. Turns out adding more N did more than all that K. But too much now?

Old overdosing catching up with me? I think Flourish products are more fool proof than CSM+B but I wonder if it might have accumulated in the substrate.

Too much Trace?

I should note that a few years ago, I had REALLY high zinc levels. As in .4ppm or so. I think that was what scared me into using RO.

Just be more patient with the newer regimen? I feel like I'm running out of possibilities here and it's rather frustrating. I've had issues like this to some degree for quite a while now. Help is appreciated.


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## StrungOut

Cavan Allen said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been having some issues with my 40 breeder that I just can't seem to figure out. In the recent past, I had a big problem with BBA, which I've pretty much solved. But now, even though the tank is largely healthy, I've got some plants that just aren't right. _Alternanthera reineckii_ (removed) was growing leaves that looked OK at first but became folded down at the sides as the whole leaf curved to one side. Other than that, color was great and it kept growing. Same issue with _Ludwigia glandulosa_. A new _Ludwigia_ hybrid I collected has leaves that curl down at the edges and twist. Common theme, as you can see. A while back I had _L. arcuata_ with strangely bent and twisted leaves, but that was before the "improved" conditions I have now. _Limnophila _sp. 'Belem' (a RIDICULOUS name, as it's strictly an Old World genus) likewise has leaves that curl down but also in pretty much any direction in addition to weird forked tips. It grows fast but is generally a mess. I have regular _Hygrophila polysperma_ that formerly looked really ratty and full of pinholes lower down before I cranked the co2 and added more N. I haven't seen this in a bit, but some leaves had an odd sudden kink and hole along the midrib.
> 
> It's probably worth mentioning that I had some of the small form _Limnophila aromatica_ that was pale and chlorotic looking that got fixed after adding Flourish Trace. Some _Pogostemon helferi_ pretty much stunted when I got it but is recovering. _Tonina_ doing well, as do all _Bucephelandra_ (grow all those like weeds) and crypts. _Riccardia_ and _Myriophyllum_ sp. 'Guyana" (an explosive grower) do fine. But pretty much anything that has the potential to grow funky does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alternanthera reineckii
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Removed leaves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Downcurved leaves
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Water is reconstituted RO. I've had better results with it than the tap water here. Currently, I use a 50/50 mix of Seachem Equilibrium and Aquavitro Mineralize. GH is 6 and kH is 2.
> 
> For traces, I'm currently using Flourish, Flourish Iron and Flourish Trace at the recommended levels. In my case, that's 6.5mls of Flourish, 1.25mls Flourish Iron and 20mls of the Trace weekly. Trace two days and Flourish two days. Iron in smaller amounts daily. In the past, I dosed much more heavily, always with Seachem stuff (for a while, Aquavitro Envy) and at one point, 10mls a day.
> 
> I add potassium sulfate for K daily, and possibly too much. I'll get into that later. For N, I use Flourish Nitrogen. 9mls the first day after the weekly water change and 5mls daily the rest of the time. Potassium phosphate (dry dosed) .45g the first day and .25 daily other days. I was until recently not adding even close to enough N. Currently, I'm adding 17ppm weekly. Before that, it was 12.64 and before that, even lower. Some clear leaf margins on Nymphaea were fixed when I got on top of that.
> 
> Lighting is a fixture I made with RapidLED parts. 24LEDs with 4 blue and the rest a mix of (I think because it's been a while) warm and neutral whites. If turned up all the way (and it is now), PAR at substrate is about 150ish with no lenses on.
> 
> Substrate is mostly a mix of Flourite Black and Soilmaster. I will never use the latter again because it's so light. Much of the foreground is pool filter sand; that area was formerly the same as the rest.
> 
> Filtration is a Rena Filstar XP2 and a Fluval 306. The Fluval has a surface skimmer attached to the inlet. Plenty of flow in the tank. A few hours after the lights go out, I have an airstone running the rest of the night until when the co2 comes on an hour before the lights.
> 
> Co2 is maxed out. It was definitely not enough until recently but now should be. 4mls of Excel added every morning on top of that.
> 
> The tank itself is about five years old in its current iteration.
> 
> Stocking levels are low. 12 lampeyes, 7 _Corydoras habrosus_, a Farlowella and a geriatric, 8 year old glowlight tetra. Also a wood shrimp and a ton of Malawa shrimp.
> 
> Currently adding in PPM per week:
> N-17ppm
> P- 8.99ppm
> K-37.88ppm
> Fe-.7ppm
> 
> I know that's a lot of phosphate. If I back off of it I get a green haze on the glass. But really, there's not really any algae otherwise other than some of the non-attaching Cladophora in tiny, inconsequential quantities (but an indicator of high P, I know). I've pretty much eradicated the BBA.
> 
> Without the potassium sulfate, I'm at just over 29ppm a week with all the other K sources. Turns out adding more N did more than all that K. But too much now?
> 
> Old overdosing catching up with me? I think Flourish products are more fool proof than CSM+B but I wonder if it might have accumulated in the substrate.
> 
> Too much Trace?
> 
> I should note that a few years ago, I had REALLY high zinc levels. As in .4ppm or so. I think that was what scared me into using RO.
> 
> Just be more patient with the newer regimen? I feel like I'm running out of possibilities here and it's rather frustrating. I've had issues like this to some degree for quite a while now. Help is appreciated.


How did you conquer the bba?

I don't think fert is the problem here, rather too high co2 causing these weird happenings in your leaves.

In the past, under barr, higher co2 higher co2, I witnessed stunting

No one knows what causes stunting so far as I have read as much as I know

This is my theory, and hope becomes fact. by me


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## StrungOut

On a side note, can I ask how to go about identifying syngonanthus? Without the locality, just common names i have, is it possible? Need be flowered, even then, how to go about?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Cavan,

Twisted new growth is typically a Ca deficiency although very seldom a Boron deficiency.

Curled leaf margins (usually downward but occasionally upward) and sometimes with puckering is a symptom of Mg deficiency.

Interestingly, an excess of potassium (K) can effect the uptake of both the above nutrients.



> Calcium is not mobile within the plant, and so calcium deficiency shows up in new growth only. The main symptom is new leaves are twisted, or grow out malformed. Boron deficiency is visually similar to calcium deficiency but is less likely since it is used in smaller quantities.





> _ammonium_ or _magnesium excess_ may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... *calcium deficiency*





> Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. _Potassium _or _calcium excess_ can inhibit uptake of magnesium...*magnesium deficiency*


Hopefully this will give you someplace(s) to start.


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## Cavan Allen

StrungOut said:


> On a side note, can I ask how to go about identifying syngonanthus? Without the locality, just common names i have, is it possible? Need be flowered, even then, how to go about?


They need to be flowered, yes. Eriocaulaceae can be VERY difficult to ID, but fortunately in this case there are really only two possibilities (most likely). Other than _S. caulescens_, there is only _S. anomalus_ (synonym _S. macrocaulon_), which is definitely what the 'Madeira' is and _S. inundatus_. I'd wager that most of them are the former. To really be sure, wait for the inflorescences to mature a bit, put the plant between some newspaper in a book to preserve it (while recording collection details) and send it to me. I have experience and resources to ID those sorts of things. So let me know. _Eriocaulon_ are definitely tougher, especially if we don't know where it came from, but I can probably still do those or get help if needed.


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## Cavan Allen

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Interestingly, an excess of potassium (K) can effect the uptake of both the above nutrients.


Hi Roy,

I have actually considered that. There seems to be some controversy about excess K, but I suppose the worst thing that could happen is some lousy looking polysperma for a while. I suspect that as with micro nutrient dosing, what's OK in some situations might not be in others. If that is true for me, then there would have to be the possibility that these issues are happening for a different reason than they originally did. This stuff has been going on in one form or another and I'm really sick of it. Never had any trouble like this when I lived in Pittsburgh. 8-[


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## Cavan Allen

StrungOut said:


> How did you conquer the bba?
> 
> I don't think fert is the problem here, rather too high co2 causing these weird happenings in your leaves.
> 
> In the past, under barr, higher co2 higher co2, I witnessed stunting
> 
> No one knows what causes stunting so far as I have read as much as I know
> 
> This is my theory, and hope becomes fact. by me


Removing ALL I could find, surface skimming, nighttime aeration, adding another canister filter and cleaning both monthly, weekly 50% water changes and generally improving plant health.

I think that if you did witness stunting it was because if you turned up the co2 and didn't compensate for the increased growth, nutrients run short. Consider the following photo. The leaves with the transparent margins were from BEFORE I turned up the co2. When I realized that I was probably going to need to add more macros and did, the test kit reading was the same after the increase when I measured the following week. Healthy leaves are after the fix.


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## StrungOut

Cavan Allen said:


> They need to be flowered, yes. Eriocaulaceae can be VERY difficult to ID, but fortunately in this case there are really only two possibilities (most likely). Other than _S. caulescens_, there is only _S. anomalus_ (synonym _S. macrocaulon_), which is definitely what the 'Madeira' is and _S. inundatus_. I'd wager that most of them are the former. To really be sure, wait for the inflorescences to mature a bit, put the plant between some newspaper in a book to preserve it (while recording collection details) and send it to me. I have experience and resources to ID those sorts of things. So let me know. _Eriocaulon_ are definitely tougher, especially if we don't know where it came from, but I can probably still do those or get help if needed.


I do not understand, your saying besides the erio type syngonanthus there are really only 2 types, the madeira and the macrocaulon?

I definitely need id's, even on the commons, would be nice to have the scientific name

In stock I have
sao gabriel
rio ***** 06
rio ***** giant
rio uaupes
hybrid
(chinese named one)
belem
belem 2013
madeira
manaus
lago grande

I can send stem of each plant for id, certain ones still need propagating. I can make it worth it for you too, i know you wanted that mex red, but i would need for sure identifications. Pm coming tonight


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## StrungOut

Cavan Allen said:


> Removing ALL I could find, surface skimming, nighttime aeration, adding another canister filter and cleaning both monthly, weekly 50% water changes and generally improving plant health.
> 
> I think that if you did witness stunting it was because if you turned up the co2 and didn't compensate for the increased growth, nutrients run short. Consider the following photo. The leaves with the transparent margins were from BEFORE I turned up the co2. When I realized that I was probably going to need to add more macros and did, the test kit reading was the same after the increase when I measured the following week. Healthy leaves are after the fix.


At that point in time no, i was passed upping, this was constant blasting from day 1 supplemented with ei injection, possibly needed even more nutrients, i do not know.


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## Cavan Allen

I'm saying that most likely, all of those _Syngonanthus_ are either _S. inundatus_ or _S. anomalus_. _S. macrocaulon_ is a synonym of the latter. So if I have fertile specimens of them, the IDs shouldn't be too hard to figure out. I don't have the space to do that myself though. Have you flowered them before?

You may safely say that the 'Madeira' is _Syngonanthus anomalus_; someone sent me a pressed specimen of that a while ago.



StrungOut said:


> I do not understand, your saying besides the erio type syngonanthus there are really only 2 types, the madeira and the macrocaulon?
> 
> I definitely need id's, even on the commons, would be nice to have the scientific name
> 
> In stock I have
> sao gabriel
> rio ***** 06
> rio ***** giant
> rio uaupes
> hybrid
> (chinese named one)
> belem
> belem 2013
> madeira
> manaus
> lago grande
> 
> I can send stem of each plant for id, certain ones still need propagating. I can make it worth it for you too, i know you wanted that mex red, but i would need for sure identifications. Pm coming tonight


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## StrungOut

Cavan Allen said:


> I'm saying that most likely, all of those _Syngonanthus_ are either _S. inundatus_ or _S. anomalus_. _S. macrocaulon_ is a synonym of the latter. So if I have fertile specimens of them, the IDs shouldn't be too hard to figure out. I don't have the space to do that myself though. Have you flowered them before?
> 
> You may safely say that the 'Madeira' is _Syngonanthus anomalus_; someone sent me a pressed specimen of that a while ago.


Why would they have the same names if they're different? No I haven't been able to flower them, i do not know how to.


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## StrungOut

I hope you consider it. Make some room or so, these are healthy species. We could really use the id's.


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## batuke

Hi, have you consider that you are experiencing a trace problem? I think in a deficency, probably generated by the overfertilizing regime and a bad ratio. Maybe you could test the plant in a tiny test tank under other regime, with much more less Macros and Iron, a little bit less GH and a little more traces.

Only an idea, I am having similar problems and researching for an answer.


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## Cavan Allen

I have considered that, yes. That's one of the next things on my list if the potassium reduction doesn't do the job. So far, so good though.


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## batuke

It's working for me, you can see the progress within days, but I also go for less potassium as my next step.


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## Cavan Allen

I saw an old thread somewhere where someone was saying _Alternanthera_ can't handle excess K. Might be true. I got some more (of two types) and so far, so good. Also got some arcuata that looks normal after a week. Fingers crossed.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Cavan,

I have been following this thread, I'm glad the comment about excess K possibly affecting Ca absorption seems to be providing positive results. Please keep us updated.


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## Cavan Allen

I replaced the rest of the substrate with some Flourite Black my friend had. What a mess! Really glad to be rid of the light weight soilmaster. Thinking too that cleaning that up will reduce the acidification present in old tanks and help out the autotrophic bacteria a bit. Something I was going to do anyway and one less variable to worry about if things don't correct right away.

And man! I cut the biomass WAY, WAY down. Anybody need a pound of Theia blue? I wouldn't be surprised if my problems stem at least in part from too much competition. Is it somehow not the case that just adding more of things can help out weaker competitors?

Also, how does using Flourish and Flourish Trace at recommended levels compare to CSM+B dosing? Isn't the latter more concentrated? Keep trace dosing the same despite biomass reduction? Going to for now, I think.

One stem of the new reineckii looks kinda stunted but the rest look...pretty normal. Fingers crossed.

Hopefully if things go well I'll try the ramosior from Florida (the red one) and _Gratiola viscidula_ again. Kinda sucks to go out and get these cool new plants and see only other people grow them! Hopefully, that will change.


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## mathman

Not to be rude but the term "excess" is used often without really explicitly stating what readings are considered "excess"


Exactly what is too much potassium, What are we talking about - 30ppm? 70ppm, 100ppm?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Solcielo lawrencia

The AR leaves folding under along the middle is most likely mild -B. Excess Ca will induce -B. Optimum range depends on the plants. 

I've experimented with Ca:B from 400 to 150 using rain water for nutrient control. (RODI leaves too much B.) Most plants do fine within this range but Ludwigias do better with more. E.g. L. red can explode in growth once Ca:B is optimal but excess B will slow growth.

At <100, induced -Ca starts to occur in Rotala rotundifolias - very small, misshapen new leaves, hard stems. Ludwigia growth will slow but is resistant to induced -Ca. AR is also resistant but growth also slows. I'll need more time to experiment for something more definitive. 

R. macrandra's appear to have higher B requirements than R. rotundifolia's and mild symptoms are similar to the AR leaves. Ca:B for macrandra's may need to be 100-200 for optimal leaf development. 

If there's excess B, either from tap, the trace mix, or overdose, adding Ca to increase the ratio can alleviate the B- induced -Ca.


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## batuke

Thanks for the tip Solcielo, I've made my maths and it look like to be that in the middle of a lot of changes I've set my Ca:B ratio in order of 300...I was thinking that the changes in the AR were in response to an increase of Zn, but I will have to review this.

What about excesive potassium? Do you think have anything to do with these?


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## Solcielo lawrencia

Mild -Zn results in undulated leaf margins. The symptoms affect leaf development like -B but are visually different. It's possible to have mild deficiencies of both. B and Zn have antagonistic and synergistic behaviors.

AR appears to have higher Zn requirements than other plants, especially AR variegated. But this may be due to the relationship with B. High B needs sufficient Zn to balance for synergistic effects. Otherwise, the excess B can induce -Zn. So a narrow Ca:B:Zn range appears to be very important for certain plants.


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## Solcielo lawrencia

I've not experimented with excess K but it's unlikely to interfere at those amounts even though it's excessive and plants can't possibly absorb that much.


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## Cavan Allen

Well, water change day is tomorrow.

I was thinking of going with all Aqua Vitro Mineralize instead of splitting the dose with Equilibrium.
Not sure which of the two has more Ca. A friend of mine in the local club commented on the same Ca to B ratio a while ago. If it's true that Ludwigias need more B, it might explain why the arcuata is doing fine when the reineckii isn't so much (less well half way into this week past the substrate swap and after micro dosing). Maybe less Flourish Trace? It does have extra B in it. But figuring out right ratio between all those products might be pretty tricky.



Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The AR leaves folding under along the middle is most likely mild -B. Excess Ca will induce -B. Optimum range depends on the plants.
> 
> I've experimented with Ca:B from 400 to 150 using rain water for nutrient control. (RODI leaves too much B.) Most plants do fine within this range but Ludwigias do better with more. E.g. L. red can explode in growth once Ca:B is optimal but excess B will slow growth.
> 
> At <100, induced -Ca starts to occur in Rotala rotundifolias - very small, misshapen new leaves, hard stems. Ludwigia growth will slow but is resistant to induced -Ca. AR is also resistant but growth also slows. I'll need more time to experiment for something more definitive.
> 
> R. macrandra's appear to have higher B requirements than R. rotundifolia's and mild symptoms are similar to the AR leaves. Ca:B for macrandra's may need to be 100-200 for optimal leaf development.
> 
> If there's excess B, either from tap, the trace mix, or overdose, adding Ca to increase the ratio can alleviate the B- induced -Ca.


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## Solcielo lawrencia

Determine the amount of Ca, then add either boric acid or borax to attain the target ratio.


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## Cavan Allen

Cut the Equilibrium and went to all Mineralize (so less K and a tiny bit of manganese) and cut the Flourish Trace dose by half. Result? Arcuata leaves that push down at the tips and twist in strange directions. Not catastrophic but strange. Brought Trace dose back up and may have just been short micros. Would seem strange to dose specifically boron on top of what I am.


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## Cavan Allen

Update:

I redid the whole tank a while after my last posting. Mineralized soil, Osmocote+ and Flourish Tabs. 25% tap water and the rest RO. kH is really low, co2 quite high (a 1.6 drop). pH gets all the way down to 5.7 during the day. I add 1.69g of potassium sulfate and .3g potassium bicarbonate at water changes to correct a (real, not induced) K shortage. 1ml Flourish every other day and .25mls Flourish Iron the other days. I still do a 50% water change weekly even though I hardly dose anything in the water anymore; it helps keep the BBA away.

Result? Growing _Pogostemon erectus_ and _Rotala_ sp. 'Vietnam' by the pound. _Alternanthera_ is fine as long as I keep root feeding. My initial impression was that the mineralized soil would be enough and that the Osmocote might be overkill, but that has been proven to not be the case. I have to steadily add more of that and Flourish Tabs to some things (especially _Gratiola viscidula_), which surprises me, but whatever. At least it works well. Minor issue with leaf curling on _Ludwigia polycarpa_ when the stems get big, but since it looks better as a hedge anyway and I don't see that when the stems are shorter, it's not a big deal. Others who have grown it have seen the same thing.

Seems that although you can feed through the roots or water for most anything, feeding through the roots is more fail safe. You can just throw everything and the kitchen sink at something as long as it's hidden beneath the substrate. In the water is trickier. Why that is for some people and not others remains to be seen, I think. I used to be able to dose the water heavily in Pittsburgh but can't here even though the water isn't all that different.


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