# Green Water Question



## fraynes1 (Mar 4, 2005)

I am currently going through a green water battle that I am apparently losing!

Out of the last 14 days, 9 days have been in darkness for my tank and plants are suffering now and I am reluctant to try another blackout. Today was first day with lights on after 4 days and noticed at the end of the day that it wasn't as clear as it was this morning, same as before.

I read on the krib where someone got rid of his by JUST dosing Nitrogen and Potassium, problem is no parameters of how much was given.


Has anyone ever done the above? If so what should my Nitrogen be?

I have my Nitrates at approximately 10ppm I have added potassium sulfate to have my potassium levels between 20-30ppm and I have .5ppm of phosphates.

Do I increase the Nitrates, say to 20ppm and dose daily with Potassium until it clears. I don't have access to a diatom filter and don't have the $200.00 to buy one.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, I've only had tank for 6 months and have had nothing but problems with it and am ready to quit the hobby.


Tanks specs

75 gal
110 w all-glass compact flouresant
ammonia 0
nitrIte 0
Kh 60
gh 40
ph 7.7
NitrAte 10ppm
Phosphate .5ppm
No co2 injection just use excel dosing 1ml daily


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## ShrimpLA (Apr 15, 2005)

What worked for me in the past was using a UV sterlizer. It will clear it up on a couple of days max depanding on how bad it is and the circulation. 

I hooked up the UV with a small powerhead and it worked everytime.


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

Hi fraynes1,
I would tend to agree with the advice given in the krib about dosing more nitrates and phosphates. Undoubtedly a UV sterilizer would clear up the green water but it wouldn't clear up your problem, which of course is nutrient deficiency. Also, the UV sterilizer is expensive and there is a theory that the UV negatively affects availability of some trace elements by precipitating them out of solution.

As incredible as it may seem, I believe your nitrate and phosphate test kits are lying to you. Some of these kits are notorious. I believe they are telling you that there are more nutrients in the water than are actually there. With your medium lighting level and non CO2 injection a sample dosing for 80 gallons (I rounded up, the arithmatic is easier) would be as follows:

1/2 teaspoon KNO3 weekly
1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4 weekly

You may also need to add trace elements such as Plantex, Tropica Master Grow or any of Seachem line such as Flourish/Equilibrium. These can be added per instructions on the respective boxes.

Potassium Nitrate is a powerful algae inhibitor as well as an excellent source of Nitrogen and Potassium for your plants. It may take a few days but the green water should clear up.

I would dose the above as a starting point and put the test kits on the shelf for a while. Don't worry so much about the target levels for now as long as your dose consistently. The dosing can be increased or decreased based on the plant response. Obviously, if you add more light intensity you would increase the dosage but your light levels seem OK to me.

The Excel is reported to be a good source of Carbon so I would continue it's use. Light should be 10-12 hours per day (9 days of darkness can't be good for your plants, wow!).

Most of all please don't quit the hobby. Instead, read more and learn more and get smarter. Have a look at some of the beautiful tanks posted on this site and get inspired knowing that the battle can be won.

Cheers mate,


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## fraynes1 (Mar 4, 2005)

Thanks for the quick replies!! I don't really want to dose PHOSPHATES, they are at .5ppm. 

I was going to dose Nitrates to 10-15ppm and add potassium. Would this be correct? If not what should my phosphate level be at if I have nitrates at 10-15ppm?

Thanks


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

what brand of tests are u using. ardvark is correct many test kits especially those for phosphate are incorrect. In my experience green water is not a result from too much phosphates, maybe due to too much phosphates a too quick a pace but not too high altogether. If u have ur ferts dosed accordingly the water should clear up. Good luck.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

EVERY time I have had Green Water it was either due to low CO2 levels (in a high light tank) or after a lot of plant re-arranging/substrate disturbing. This leads me to assume NH4 had been released from the substrate in an amount greater than the plants were able to use, so the green water made an appearance. I didn't and don't have a very high fish load so the NH4 more than likely didn't come from the fish.

Did you do a water change both before and after your blackout and do you have a test kit for measuring NH4 (ammonium)? Also what is your fish load like?

110w of light isn't a whole lot, but I grew P. stellata very nicely in my 75g with 136w of NO flourescents and CO2. Nicest (and easiest) stellata I have ever had! I think it is possible that the NH4 levels could be the problem given your light levels and the fact that you have had the light out for 9 days The plants haven't been able to use much. As ardvark said, that many days without lights cannot be good for the plants. 

A UV sterilizer or Diatom filter will clear up the green water, but you still need to find the cause. In my case, it was the constant rearranging of plants so I purchased a HOT Magnum to use as a diatom filter when I uproot stuff.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

This got me thinking so I dug out an old issue of TAG (Volume 17, Number 4). In it, Tom Barr has a very good article titled "Nitrogen Process & Cycling in Planted Aquariums". 

He states in the section "Using PO4 dosing to increase NO3 uptake rates", page 35, "NH4+ (ammonium) uptake is also greatly enhanced by relieving a strong PO4 limitition, although measuring NH4 is exceedingly difficult. The problem is that it is assimilated as fast as it is produced. In a well-run planted tank in never builds up enough to measure."

I don't know if 0.5ppm is considered a "strong limitation" but ardvark may be right about trying to increase your PO4. I also do not know if this would apply to a non-CO2 tank but it may be worth attempting since the blackouts are not working and are probably doing more damage to your plants than the green water.

Moderators, if I am infringing on copyright laws please delete this post!


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

GW is sometimes very troublesome. In my experience, it is a result of some sort of instability. Once the plants are growing well, the GW goes away naturally. So, as Chia mentioned above, make sure your fertilization regimen is correct. Then take some steps to deal with the current GW.

UV sterilizers, micron or diatom filters, blackout, or Paul's daphnia cage have all been proven to work.


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## danio27 (Jul 24, 2004)

I had a nasty case of green water after I set up my new tank several months ago. I changed 40-50% water every day for 2 weeks. Eventually, the water turned crystal clear. I did not dose any nitrates or phosphates.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Sometimes a simple seasonal temperature change or outside Sunlight time shift starts GW green water.

Edward


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Anytime you have lots of light+ NH4, you'll get Green water.

You can do controlled simple test with KNO3 and KH2PO4 to prove the NO3 and PO4 have no direct role. They do have an indirect role in NH4 uptake. 

This applies to both CO2 and non CO2 plant tanks.

Since it is a non CO2 tank, the 110w might seem about right and in many cases is, but bend the rflectors outward so that the light is evenly spread out.

You can buy a UV on ebay for 30-40$ tops.
It'll take 1-2 days a it'll be gone forever.

If you have NO FL's, I'd suggest a blackout for 4 days.
Don't do lots of water changes unless you also add lots of Excel back and even then, stop doing water changes after you remove some of the GW biomass.

GW will clear up either on it's own(GW prefers CO2 and adding CO2 rich tap water back feeds the algae and confuses the plants, plants adapt to low CO2 levels and this takes about a week's time to gear up their enzymatic machinery) or you may need UV. 

Mild cases with less light can be beaten with a good water change and then a blackout afterwards.

Excel: if you are going to use this, then use it! 35 mls every other day is what the tank need at a minmum. You are adding 1 ml daily.

Dosing a non CO2 tank: stop whatever you are doing for now.
Try adding this routine and stop doing the water changes. 

Add 1/2 teaspoon of SeaChem Equilibrium once a week. After two weeks, reduce to 1/4 teaspoon.

This has Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, and plenty of K+.
You can add smidge of KH2PO4 and KNO3 once a week.
About 1/4 of KNO3 at the start and 1/8" later. 
A rice grain's worth or less of the KH2PO4.

Stop doing water changes. 
Excel, see above. 

We can readjust this dosing later and you will likely add more as things grow a fill in. But do not do the water changes, blackout will not beat it either in your case. 

Add lots of plants also, use cheapy plants for now.
To this end, you can add floating plants, like water sprite to reduce the light to the GW.

You can also root this plant as well and pack the tank good.

I'd still suggest the UV, it's fairly cheap and 100% effective then you can dose whatever routine you need to supply the plant's needs.

I'd suggest not doing water changes for awhile. GW does use CO2 and prefers it and will take advantage of the water change while the plants adapted to low CO2 will take much longer. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fraynes1 (Mar 4, 2005)

*Update*

TOTALLY REDID MY TANK, BUT STILL GREEN WATER! 

I had a lfs owner come to my house two weeks ago on a Friday, we completely tore apart my tank, changing the pea gravel with 6.5 bags of eco-complete added lots of stem plants polysperma, repens etc., took the fish out into a 20 gal. tank, took all water out.

I left my filter (fluval 304) intact with whatever water was in there from the old tank set up. Added the eco-complete filled tank with fresh water 100%, dechlorinated and let it run for an hour. Planted tank and basically put it back together, water was very clear. Added fish. Also added the single tube all-glass 32 w bulb in conjunction with my 110w cf.

Dosed as per Tom Barr EI with exception of no phosphates.

On Tuesday, 3 days after tank teardown added pressurized co2 injection with kh being 5 and ph being 6.4-6.6 so co2 level being at 38 with no adverse affects to fish. Do not trust ph test kits as lfs employee brought probe ph tester and his showed at 6.9ph. Am getting probe this week sometime to get more accurate test readings. My original ph was 7.7, with probe and mine showed 7.0.

For 3 days very clear and then started to get cloudy again. I believe received an ammonia spike when fish were added so again green water.

After a week to the day did 50% w/c.

A few days later checked for phosphates and were off the chart (aquarium pharmaceutical test), started doing 50% w/c every 2nd day and then daily for 3 days for a total of 5-50% w/c in a week getting phosphates down to between 1-2ppm with aquarium pharmaceutical test kit). Interestingly my friend tested with seachem phosphate test kit when my AP test kit showed at least 10ppm his showed 1.5 ppm, so I am assuming AP test kit tests for ORGANIC phosphates and seachem tests for INorganic, correct?

Well, my last of 3 daily w/c's was on Thursday now it is Saturday and dosed my 2nd EI, and water is starting to cloud up again. My plants are doing VERY well, have trimmed most of my polysperma and repens at least 2 times in last two weeks as they have grown to the top of my tank.
I don't know anyone who has a uv sterilizer and blackouts don't appear to work for me any suggestions? I can get my hands on a vortex diatom filter! But, if I have to will buy a uv sterilizer.

This is what I dosed after every w/c and plan on doing every 2nd day: 
1.5 tsp potassium nitrate
2.5 tsp potassium sulfate
10 ml fluorish comprehesive
10 ml fluorish iron
correct?

Sorry to be long winded wanted to make sure I gave all pertinant information.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Light intensity is a a key element in the persistence of Green water.
At high light like those of powercompacts, the GW grows easily.

Once induced, it's very difficult to get rid under high light.

Other methods work fairly well like blackouts, water changes etc with low light/NO FL's etc.

At high intensity lighting, UV, Diatom or mechanical fitration is needed.

UV's run about 30-40$ on Ebay.

I never have had GW until I induced it with NH4.
That is the trigger.

In order to know this, you need to experiment, after the fact the NH4 is gone and used up and then the bloom will presist.

Not dosing PO4 to limited tank will make a tank more sensitive to algae in general.

Same for most all nutrients, CO2 especially.

Once you get rid of the algae that's there, the tank will likely never have an issue again.


GW is very common in new tanks (poor CO2, no bacteria backup to convert the NH4=> NO3, not enough plant biomass added from the first day-one of the most common problems for new tanks). Adding mulm and peat at the start will solve this issue as well as adding enough CO2 etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fraynes1 (Mar 4, 2005)

Thanks plantbrain so I take it you like the use of a uv sterilizer over a diatom filter?

I've been looking at both and cost for each is approximately the same. What wattage do I need for a 75 g., I do have the option of renting a diatom filter at lfs but not uv sterilizer.

Also, what is FL's? :???: 

Thank You for quick reply!


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I prefer the use of a diatom filter to the UV myself. The diatom is easy to switch from one tank to another if you have more than one tank. I think mos, if not all, UV sterilizers need to be plumbed into the tank. As far as wattage you will need, I think that is based more on filter flow than size of tank. Most UV filters have a max GPH flow listed for them.

However, if I ever set up my 180g "dream" tank, I will put a UV on it just in case  I think it would take too long to diatom a tank of that size!

FL is short for fluorescent (NO FL= Normal Output Fluorescent)


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Like a diatom , you can switch a UV from tank to tank easily.
No requirement to be plumbed, a simple powerhead added is all that you need.

Takes 2-3 days, you just plug it in and have water go through it.
Diatoms are useful for mehcical filtration, but at what, 100$? to mechically clean the water, a simple 9 3/4" cartiage filter will do that for less than 20$.

UV's only need to be turned on/off to work.

They are cheap these days, no diatom filter is relatively cheap.

You might be able to rent or borrow a diatom, or a UV.
Make sure you have enough biomedia in the filter also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

3rd annual Plant Fest July 8-14th 2005!
[email protected] Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information


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## fraynes1 (Mar 4, 2005)

Regarding the bio media, that is what probably caused my ammonia spike and caused the green water when I redid my tank, I originally had my fluval 304 and aqua clear 300 on it, but removed the aqua clear entirely and took out the filter floss from the fluval and stuffed it full of bio balls.

I'm going to search ebay and buy a uv sterilizer.

Thanks for all of the help everyone!


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