# What happened to the prices?



## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

I just ordered some ferts from the new store and was amazed at the price difference.

My last order was 6 months ago.

Here is what I ordered and the price differences:

1# KNO3 $3.00 today vs $2.17. A 38% increase.

1# CSM+B $12.00 vs $8.59. A 40% increase.

1# KH2PO4 $5.00 vs $ 3.42. A 46% increase.

1# K2SO4 $3.00 vs $2.17. A 38% increase.

Shipping was $9.79 vs $12.80 now. A 31% increase.

For the same ferts 6 months ago, I am paying 39% more for them.

What gives? that's a heavy increase in price.


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## evercl92 (Aug 14, 2006)

Just FYI: USPS has Priority flat-rate boxes (doesn't matter how much weight, price is still the same) that cost $8.10 to ship. Each box will easily hold 15lbs of material.

I haven't purchased recently, but did notice the price increase.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Speaking of SCAPE...I have our own supply of KNO3 and KH2PO4. I won't list the prices we sell for, but we definitely save. I also have a plan for helping other clubs that don't have access to these supplies. It's a small mark up, but still quite reasonable and all shipping is done via USPS Priority as long as it will fit in the flat rate boxes. All profits from sales to other clubs go to supporting SCAPE.

There is no current plan to sell to individuals, as I don't want fertilizers to run my life, not to mention there are sources like Greg Watson, although this may explain his "book" :shock:


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Guys, let's keep the discussion about things Greg Watson please. I know the discussion is innocent, but nonetheless this sponsor pays for this space and it's probably best to leave the anwering up to them rather than conjecturing on their behalf. Thanks for understanding.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I in no way was trying to speak for any club, just using the names as a demonstration of the type of group I was reffering to. 
I personally have no idea how they operate and am not trying to suggest that they sell anything to anybody.

Not trying to stir up anything, just trying to give an honest answer.

Sorry to SCAPE and any other group, like I said i was only using your name's along with my group AAPE as an example of the type of group I was reffering to.

And I got to this link thru the new posts and didn't realize it was a sponser link, I do not want to offend any of our great sponsors, or answer for them.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Goalcres - I certainly wasn't offended in any way with what you posted. I was merely being cautious that our sponsor might be upset. I've had this happen before. I'm not saying it's right necessarily. 

Anyhow, thanks for understanding and you're certainly welcome to start a new thread in a different forum with the same discussion.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Aaron T, not to think that you were, but I can see how Greg Watson ferts could have been upset for answering for them (I really did not realize that I was in there forum until it was pointed out)
I can see that SCAPE might have seen that I was suggesting that they sell ferts, which was not at all what I was implying, so I just removed it.
If ever anybody asks this question or something along it's lines outside a sponsor forum and I see it, I will answer similar to what I had done, but leaving out the groups (other then mine), I don't really feel it is a strong enough point for me to start another thread at this time, but thanks for the offer.
And I am not going to hijack this thread with any other posts.


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## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

Got the order in today. 

My acually order consisted of a total of 9 pounds of ferts. The shipping was 22.05 and handling was 1.00. 

The ferts came in a flat rate box with newspaper. We all know that flat rate boxes are 8.10. So where did the other $14.00 go?

I can understand paying a service fee, if you will, with the postage inorder to delivery it to the post office or what not, but come on. That's a lot of money NOT being used for shipping even though I paid for the shipping!

Where did my Money go?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'll leave it to Greg Watson or to the new owner/operators of the company to provide a specific response, but I'll offer my $0.02 about this type of question. First, you are perfectly welcome to ask any questions you'd like, but it's not reasonable to expect any business to divulge the particulars of their business plan. They should be fair, respond to problems, and in general operate in accordance to their own written policies. Most businesses exist for only one purpose, and that is to make a profit. Free market principles dictate that they are free to set their own pricing schedule. If they charge too little, they'll have enormous demand, but no profit. If they charge too much then they'll have no demand, and also no profit. Anyone is free to set up a competing company if they feel they can offer a better product, better service, or a lower price.

Speaking personally, I feel that the current prices are quite acceptable, even if they are a bit higher than previously. If you look at the alternatives, you'll pay many times this for "brand-name" ferts. You can always buy bulk quantities yourself, but few people can justify buying 100 lbs of K2HPO4. Their shipping prices are clearly indicated at their website. I perceive nothing "shady" or "deceptive" about their current procedures.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

guaiac_boy I agree with your statements, however I also agree with rkilling1 in the fact that it appears that money has gone missing.

My thoughts on the this, take them for what they are worth, but like this shipment, a whole lot of items on e-bay and many companies around charge to me what it stupid amounts for s/h.

To me, if I see somebody selling a product on e-bay for $.99 with $24.01 shipping, $25 total and another seller selling the exact same item for $26 with free shipping, I buy the item for $26 shipped.
Granted I spent $1 more, but I bought from somebody that I feel is more honest, up front and reasonable to deal with.

I know it is the same thing, but it is not. To me it is a "Scheme" a marketing ploy, I know many people, some that don't speak english that well, who go on e-bay and buy a new I-pod for $24. Next day at work they are telling me what a great deal they got, and I say, let me see it. After we go on the computer for about 3 minutes I sadly have to let them that they really owe this guy $24 for the item and $150 for shipping. They say, "What, that is not right", I explain that this is how some people do thiings to set sales even though it is not very honest. "I thought that was not right when I saw the shipping cost, I thought it was a mistake, it doesn't cost $150 to ship anything like that". "I am sorry, but you entered into an agreement and now have to pay"
3 times, 3 of my employees in the last 6 months have had this happen.

Therefore, I don't like the way some of the sellers promote their sales and I will only promote the people selling their stuff in a much more Honest fashion, at least IMO it is more up front and honest.

What I would like to see is for the Fert price go up (I know it has a little, but the cheaper stuff coule easily double, even triple without losing sales), add a box fee or a HAZMAT fee, whatever and then charge the $8.10 for the shipping. It might not be that simple but it shouldn't be much more difficult then that.

Just what I would like to see happen, not to say that it will, or that anybody out there should agree with me, but it is my honest feeling of how business should be run.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Goalcreas,

Your opinion is valid. I agree with many of your statements. The fact remains, however, that this particular web merchant is quite "up-front" with their procedures. I find it unlikely that someone could feel "duped" or "deceived" by this vendor.

Honestly, if someone thinks they can get on-line and find a $24 Ipod, they probably aren't responsible enough to be using a credit card in the first place. No money is "missing" in this case. It went to the vendor as reimbursement for the time and effort it takes to receive chemicals, store them, measure them into little bags, label them, collect & fill orders, prepare shipments, print out mailing labels, and arrange for pickup, not to mention tracking down every little problem that comes from running a web-based business.

If someone doesn't like the way they do things, they're always free to make other arrangements or start a better competing business. Now, before it starts to look like I'm on someone's payroll  I'm going to shut up.


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## evercl92 (Aug 14, 2006)

goalcreas said:


> for the Fert price go up, add a box fee or a HAZMAT fee, whatever and then charge the $8.10 for the shipping.


That could be understandable. The price of individual ferts could go up without much issue, add the HAZMAT fee into the price of the ferts. The point that Randy is trying to make (I believe) is that if any of us would take that same flat rate box to the post office, it would cost $8.10, rather than $22.05.

I would much rather see the increase in cost reflected in the product price, and shipping be $8.10.

Boxes are free, and have been for a while, at:
http://ebaysupplies.usps.com/


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

evercl92 exactly what I was saying

guaiac_boy you are absolutly right. I don't mean to imply that GregWatson Ferts is not up front. I know they are, but the people that I was refering to are not.
As far as getting duped on E-bay, it happens more then you might think. Unfortunatly there are many people out there who jump on things that look very good and end up not. I will not go into televangalists and make $5000 a week at home type businesses, but they are booming and it is because there are many people out there who buy into them.

But yes your points are correct and again, I am using those examples as examples and not trying to relate them to Greg Watson Ferts but merely making the point that I would rather pay a higher price for a product then outreagous shipping costs.

And I know the money is not missing, just using the reference from the above post by rkilling1

All is good here.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

OK, a couple points.

What Hazmat fee are you talking about? In the quantities we're talking about the shipper marks "Consumer commodity" on the outside of the box and sends it. End of required information.

When Greg was running the site, I had an issue with his shipping practices. His calculator was set for UPS costs (IIRC), and he would then turn around and send via flat rate USPS Priority. The new site does not seem to follow UPS shipping costs, but still doesn't seem to use USPS shipping calculations.

With Ebay, sellers jack up shipping because Ebay makes their money off the sale price, not the shipping cost. So either the seller is trying to trick the buyer, or is trying to trick Ebay. Either way, they're screwing _someone_.

For GW ferts (Do we stop calling them Greg Watson ferts and start calling them Aquarium Fertilizer ferts?), the prices are reasonable for the product when accounting for cost of fert, labels, bags, and labor. I, however, look at the shipping cost bait and switch as a little questionable and have for quite a while.

I'd really appreciate a little more straight forward business practice.

In the mean time, I'll still point folks there because it's the easiest and cheapest way to get these supplies regardless of my opinion.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

The prices didn't go up all that much. Geez.


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## gregwatson (May 24, 2004)

turbomkt said:


> For GW ferts (Do we stop calling them Greg Watson ferts and start calling them Aquarium Fertilizer ferts?)


Thank you <grin> .... that is an important distinction <Grin> ... lets quietly remove my name there and let me move on to supporting the hobby in other ways <grin> ... in ways that more appropriately reflect my values and traditions ...

Greg


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

While I understand the issues being raised here, I'm a bit surprised at all this effort and discussion made over paying for example $3 for a pound of KNO3  .

Does anyone seriously think that this is expensive? If so, you may be in the wrong hobby  .

I mean the percentage increase seems high when looked at in isolation but it means nothing without taking into account the amounts being discussed. It reminds me of startup companies that are very proud to announce a 100% increase in revenues but are talking about increasing from 10K a year to 20K a year; the 100% sounds impressive but...

:-D


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## ryzilla (Feb 3, 2007)

botton line:

Ferts are greats (quality)
Costs are still very cheap(quantity)

High quality and cheap, well IMHO sounds like a great deal. Anyone want to dispute that? I think this is my modo on shopping. High quality goods for a low reasonable price. I can forgo a little price for great customer service, can you? If you can then paying extra for quality goods at an excellent price with great customer service seems a nominal. How about business credibility. Would you pay a little extra knowing your getting goods from a highly credible source with predominatley great reviews? I would.. Sounds like a dream seller to me. High quality, low prices, great customer service, and high credibilty, it sound like their old prices were a little cheap. Cant wait to order some aquarium ferts(when I run out).


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## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

I just want to clarify a couple of things.

The meaning of this thread was to gain some insite on the new prices of the ferts. Is it any of my business? maybe not. I was just looking for reasons and also letting everyone else know. The increase, in the price of the ferts, is not a big deal to me. I will STILL purchase them from Aquariumferts as they are, to my knowledge, the best thing going.

As far as shipping, I knew what I was paying up front, but I DIDN'T know the acually shipping was only going to be 8.10. For the price I paid, I thought I would have received two flat rate shipments. This has perturbed me, as I feel like I have paid for something that I didn't receive. If the new owner wants to make more money, then why wouldn't you just increase the price of the product even more? 14.00 dallors is a lot of money spent on something I didn't get. Don't you agree?

I want to be clear on this: I would still spend the money on the products I received, but would rather know that I am spending more for the ferts, then spending it on something I didn't get.

I want to thank, wholeheartedly, Greg for supporting this excellent hobby/job for as long as he has. He has provided me, and many others, a great service!


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## ryzilla (Feb 3, 2007)

rkilling1 said:


> I want to thank, wholeheartedly, Greg for supporting this excellent hobby/job for as long as he has. He has provided me, and many others, a great service!


I second that. These ferts rock. I only reccomend them in this hobby.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

turbomkt said:


> With Ebay, sellers jack up shipping because Ebay makes their money off the sale price, not the shipping cost. So either the seller is trying to trick the buyer, or is trying to trick Ebay. Either way, they're screwing _someone_.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Never really thought of it like that, and that is not just screwing "someone", in many cases it is screwing both the buyer and E-bay, Maybe E-bay should regulate that, or do like Paypal and create E-bay shipping where they control costs and only allow reasonable shipping costs. Sellers when describing the items list size and weight and e-bay will show all shipping options and take it our of the sellers hands.
> ...


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

turbomkt said:


> What Hazmat fee are you talking about?


KNO3 is *not* shippable by USPS. That's because it's considered an oxidizer. It's illegal to ship it via air or rail. It must go by ground vehicle, and it has to be identified as Hazmat division 5.1 (oxidizer) on the package. It must be shipped by a carrier who handles Hazmat (such as UPS), and they will charge a fee for Hazmat handling.

It's not a problem at all to order it on the internet and have it shipped... but it *needs* to be identified as a Hazmat oxidizer and shipped that way to be legal. [-X


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## Bigfishes (Dec 15, 2005)

> $8.10, rather than $22.05.


Is this for real?!! You people are defending this?


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## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

Salt said:


> KNO3 is *not* shippable by USPS. That's because it's considered an oxidizer. It's illegal to ship it via air or rail. It must go by ground vehicle, and it has to be identified as Hazmat division 5.1 (oxidizer) on the package. It must be shipped by a carrier who handles Hazmat (such as UPS), and they will charge a fee for Hazmat handling.
> 
> It's not a problem at all to order it on the internet and have it shipped... but it *needs* to be identified as a Hazmat oxidizer and shipped that way to be legal. [-X


That is not correct. This is from the USPS and it says you can ship oxidizers.

http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos138/pos138_front.html


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

rkilling1 said:


> That is not correct. This is from the USPS and it says you can ship oxidizers.
> 
> http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos138/pos138_front.html


That conflicts with the information I have... I have _always_ had to pay a Hazmat fee when ordering KNO3 from my sources.

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Potassium%A0Nitrate.html


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## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

Salt said:


> That conflicts with the information I have... I have _always_ had to pay a Hazmat fee when ordering KNO3 from my sources.
> 
> http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Potassium%A0Nitrate.html


I have spent the last half hour looking up this Hazmat for KNO3, thanks to you. 

It appears that as long as the KNO3 is classified as a ORM-D and does not exceed 25KG's, you can ship it through USPS.

EDIT: The 49 CFR that you linked to appears to be inaccurate. Here is the official version:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...E=49&PART=172&SECTION=101&YEAR=2000&TYPE=TEXT

EDIT (again): And... If the oxidizer is a Consumer commodity and is less then 11 pounds (5KG's), then it doesn't have to be labeled.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...E=49&PART=173&SECTION=152&YEAR=2000&TYPE=TEXT


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Sorry to put you to work rkilling1. But I'm glad you did... next time I order any, I will make sure I don't get charged a Hazmat fee for it! I must have been getting ripped off! 

At least it clarifies things, for me anyways! I always thought Greg Watson was going to get himself in trouble at some point, but he was doing it right all along.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

So the fert prices went up some I can understand that I guess... but the shipping increase seems pretty ridiculous!!! I'm definitely going to be scoping out other sources for my future fert needs, this isn't e-bay so I don’t really see the deception argument but it is pretty silly to charge more than double the actual shipping rate. I have a hard time purchasing from companies or people who charge outrageous shipping charges. So the new operators are in a different location, still in the lower 48 states but a different location this doesn't warrant in my opinion a giant shipping increase, especially when the product prices are increasing at such a large rate. 

If the shipping is used to cover overhead or something else why not factor this into the product prices? What’s the deal with the shipping increase. I know stamps are going up but that doesn't affect priority mail, which is how I thought Greg shipped. Flat rate boxes are a wonderful thing; if it’s not costing you ship more at a time why are you charging more? $20 shipping for a small box that weighs several pounds seems a little outragous no matter how you look at it. We're not using overnight service here its priority mail. 

I think what the users of APC are really looking for is some explanation from aquariumfertilizer.com, it sounds like many people are confused about the price changes, it almost feels like we're being taken advantage of by the new operators. Not to start trouble but I feel that we at least deserve some kind of explanation for the years of patronage we've given Greg. Hell, say it’s the cost of doing business I don’t care just say something. 

As far as hazmat labeling/shipping, I’ve never noticed anything special on the boxes I’ve received from GW, I'd assume aquariumfertilizer.com is using his same tried and true methods for providing the ferts they just want to charge more. 

Sorry for the rant but this is a little frustrating to me. I'll probably have to spend $30 for an average order now instead of $20or less, that’s more than just a couple cents per pound increase. $3/lb then the shipping increase on top of it, seems like the new operators are taking advantage of GW's place in the market and figuring people will just pay because there aren't many other well known options. 


I guess all this really boils down to me saying one thing.

Greg Watson, you'll really be missed, not that it sounds like your completely leaving but I think you know what I mean. Thanks for all the great service; I know I as well as many other hobbyists have really appreciated it. Good luck with your teaching endeavors


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

The fact is Greg sold the company to someone who is just in it for the cash. It's $8.10 for a flat rate not NOT $22.05. My fear is that these new people who have bought the company are going to drive many people away if they keep raising there prices. Greg's prices are what made his site what is was before he sold it. Now we have to deal with some Dumb Bass messing with a good thing.

The fact is if it keeps up many will look other places for the ferts they need.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

William,
I know the old site is gone, but Greg followed similar shipping practices on the orders I made. Calculation was based on one thing (UPS?), and was shipped Flat Rate Priority. It's really an obvious issue now because of new "ownership" and higher prices for the product.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

turbomkt said:


> William,
> I know the old site is gone, but Greg followed similar shipping practices on the orders I made. Calculation was based on one thing (UPS?), and was shipped Flat Rate Priority. It's really an obvious issue now because of new "ownership" and higher prices for the product.


At least greg's shipping prices weren't this outragous, I do remember noticing paying a couple dollars extra compared to the flat rate shipping that was actually used, it surely wasn't more than double or even approaching 3 times the flat rate though! Plus his fert prices were lower to top it all off. I just figured the extra $3-4 a handling fee for him to package and take it to the post office. I never once felt like i was being ripped off by greg.


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## Burks (May 25, 2006)

will5 said:


> The fact is if it keeps up many will look other places for the ferts they need.


That's what I'm doing. I have no problems paying a couple extra bucks over shipping for materials, time, gas, etc. But $14 over? Give me a break. That's eBay type shipping charges.

I'm coming up on needing to buy some more ferts. I can say this much, whoever owns Greg Watson ferts now will not receive one penny from me. If they are going to charge $14 over shipping rates, they better include a nice tube of lube for when I get bent over on lame shipping charges. If the increase was to cover other costs then why add the $1 handling charge? Just to sucker us out of more money is all.

If Greg were to reopen another business I'd spend my money there in a heartbeat. But for the new owners, no thanks.

Just wait until May when USPS jacks up shipping charges again. We'll see what the "new" Greg Watson's will charge.

Just like those sellers on eBay charging $5 to ship something for $0.39, it's a rip.


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## Pyro (Nov 20, 2005)

I thought this was rather interesting, so I decided to dig out my old Greg Watson bill. It's from a year and a little less than a month ago (March 23, 2006).

I ordered 1 lb. CSM, 1 lb. K2PO4, 2 lbs. KNO3, and 1 lb. K2SO4.
My grand total was $28.55. The exact same order today is $38.95.
About a $7 increase in the product, and a $3.50ish increase in shipping. Seems like one hell of an increase, especially with it being "hobbyists helping hobbyists."

However, a quick glance at some other online providers, AquariumFertilizers seems to be well below industry prices, and they DON'T have a minimum order volume. The only place I could find with a better deal was eBay - and that was just on specific chemicals. They don't have CSM+B or trace mixes either. If you add up how much it would cost to send all of the chemicals you need from individual sellers on eBay, it's still probably twice the cost of AquariumFertilizers.

Of course, with the increase and the new management, it seems as though they're no longer in it for helping the hobby exclusively, but for making money. I know Greg wasn't running on a huge profit margin, so it would've been almost impossible to compete with him. Now with the almost 37% price increase (atleast on my order), I'd be happy to take my business elsewhere if there was someone else that offered the same product with decent service for cheaper...but there isn't.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yep. My point exactly. There's no reason to be sore about it. If you think it's too expensive - get your stuff somewhere else. Nobody's twisting anyone's arm here.


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## Pyro (Nov 20, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> Yep. My point exactly. There's no reason to be sore about it. If you think it's too expensive - get your stuff somewhere else. Nobody's twisting anyone's arm here.


I just mentioned this to someone else into the hobby, and he had a pretty good point. Unless you have a lot of tanks, the price increase isn't really going to hit your wallet too terribly hard. I only have a 29 gallon aquarium, and we're talking about _years_ for my $28. An additional $10 every 9 months to a year for aquarium fertilizers doesn't seem to be hugely unreasonable - even for me, a college student  Then again, after seeing text book prices for the first time, prices don't phase me so much.


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

Pyro said:


> I just mentioned this to someone else into the hobby, and he had a pretty good point. Unless you have a lot of tanks, the price increase isn't really going to hit your wallet too terribly hard. I only have a 29 gallon aquarium, and we're talking about _years_ for my $28. An additional $10 every 9 months to a year for aquarium fertilizers doesn't seem to be hugely unreasonable - even for me, a college student  Then again, after seeing text book prices for the first time, prices don't phase me so much.


My point is that it will hit my wallet because i had to save up just to buy there ferts for Greg the first time. This hobby requires a lot of money that i don't have and i take the Diy approach anywhere i can. I have very low income at this time which will hopefully change in a little time. But until then i have ssstttrreeetttccchhh what little money i have. So i don't need some money hungry a** h*** taking what little i have left.

I have to say i feel a little sold out by Greg. Although i know once he sells his business it's no longer his concern. These new people are blanking up his name.

When someone with a good heart opens a business let me know i will pay them. Until them i need to find away to get Fe. No one sells it in liquid forum near me. Darn sure not going to pay that shipping price for Fe from the new greg.:snakeman:


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## Christian_rubilar (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi, i wqant to buy csm+b, where can i order ir? do you know how much is it?Thanks


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## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

Christian_rubilar said:


> Hi, i wqant to buy csm+b, where can i order ir? do you know how much is it?Thanks


You will find it here:

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/store/aquaticplantfood.php


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## Christian_rubilar (Jul 21, 2005)

Thanks


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Christian, you may not be able to have it sent to you in Argentina. Good luck!


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## rkilling1 (Oct 25, 2006)

Here is the response from Aquarium ferts:

My email:

"First, I want to thank you for taking over the business and continuing where
Greg left off.

Secondly, I do have some concern over the shipping price. I paid 22.05 plus
1.00 for handling for my last order. I received a USPS flat rate box with
all my ferts in it (thanks), but why did I pay 22.05 for shipping when the
postage was only 8.10? 

14.00 seems like a hefty price to pay for something I didn't get."

Response:

"I agree but all shipping is calculated by the PayPal program. There does 
not seem to be a way to tell it about flat rate boxes. It is something that 
I am working on. I hope tho change this aspect of the program very soon. 
Julia Kaufmann, aquariumfertilizer.com"


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## Christian_rubilar (Jul 21, 2005)

Don´t worry, my fiance is studying at Stanford University right now. 
Thanks


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I don't see any reason to continue using PayPal shipping if they do this.
Or give a break on the product, or a rebate once it is calculated for the difference in cost, or at the very least a credit for the next purchase.


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## evercl92 (Aug 14, 2006)

goalcreas said:


> I don't see any reason to continue using PayPal shipping if they do this.
> Or give a break on the product, or a rebate once it is calculated for the difference in cost, or at the very least a credit for the next purchase.


Makes sense to me. I swore there was an option (in paypal) to specify a fixed shipping cost, rather than have the USPS 'plug-in' within paypal do it for you....


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## simpsota (Mar 11, 2006)

Another option would be to sell each fert in 1, 2, or 3 lb quantities rather than having us order multiple 1lb items.


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## fishtastico (Feb 28, 2007)

Some food for thought...

Calculate the cost of the dry ferts vs. buying individual bottles of Fluorish (Nitrogen, Potassium, Phosphorus, etc.) from some other online distributor. I did comparison shopping with a well known vendor in NY State.

It was more or less a wash with shipping cost and value.

I bought my dry KNO3 and KN2PO4 from the Greg Watson store, and some Flourish Trace and Fluorish Iron from the aforementioned aquarium supply vendor. I did find the shipping costs from the Greg Watson store to be irritating, but I purchase many many things online and acknowledge that their practices are fairly common in the e-business industry.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

rkilling1 said:


> Here is the response from Aquarium ferts:
> 
> My email:
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see they at least act like the recognize this to be a problem and are attempting to remedy it. The question I have now is why make your customers pay for your mistake???? I glad shouldn't need to purchase anything from them untill this is fixed. If its not fixed in time, i'll be sure to question the shipping price before placing my order.


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## Christian_rubilar (Jul 21, 2005)

Well, I find this discussión with no sense. I think that we can choose between to buy or not. The way that any store manage the prices or the shipping cost is they problem, nobody force us to buy. 
I readt some complaints about Greg. I both there the CSM+B I asked for some post ago. The shipping cost was ok and my fiance received it in 48 hs. In Fact, i think that we should give the credits to people like him who -even if he does some many or not, I don´t care- allow us to get rare ferts for low prices in two minutes of web surfing. If somebody thinks that he can do it better, i suggest he/her to start doing it.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Christian_rubilar said:


> Well, I find this discussión with no sense. I think that we can choose between to buy or not. The way that any store manage the prices or the shipping cost is they problem, nobody force us to buy.
> I readt some complaints about Greg. I both there the CSM+B I asked for some post ago. The shipping cost was ok and my fiance received it in 48 hs. In Fact, i think that we should give the credits to people like him who -even if he does some many or not, I don´t care- allow us to get rare ferts for low prices in two minutes of web surfing. If somebody thinks that he can do it better, i suggest he/her to start doing it.


starting up a business like this fresh is one thing, but being handed an existing business with an extremely loyal and trusting customer base is a whole other thing. I think the discussion has gone from questioning new fert prices to a shipping price calculation which the new operators relize is incorrent. They ship using a flat rate box and charge nearly three times the cost, because the're calculator is broken. This is wrong. I dont see the problem in discussing this and I feel that it makes a lot of sense. People shoudl be aware that they are being ripped off, even though its tough to find the products they sell. a misscalculated shipping price is not part of their business plan, its an error they are making money off of and taking they're precious time to correct. If it were me opperating this business the second I found out this problem existed I'd be on the phone with Paypal trying to get it fixed, I've used paypal for years and I know its very simple to fix shipping problems like this, so its not a valid excuse for me, especially in the long term.


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## Christian_rubilar (Jul 21, 2005)

Okidoki, the problem is from paypal. I undestood that.:mrgreen:


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

Exactly. One phone call to Paypal and this would not be an issue. Its just dishonest.



guaiac_boy said:


> Yep. My point exactly. There's no reason to be sore about it. If you think it's too expensive - get your stuff somewhere else. Nobody's twisting anyone's arm here.


The way I see it is: You are right, and I don't expect to be buying from AF.com any more or recommending them--there's a New Kid in town. But:

The products have their cost
The "Handling" has its Cost
The shipping has its cost

The extra $14.00, in this case, is for what? Its not for shipping. So, if its for "Handling"--then put it under "Handling", but its not--the "Handling" is $1. Its already listed. The product prices are listed--so it can't be for product cost. Charging those shipping fees--knowing that it will be shipped in a Flat-rate box for ~1/3 the cost is dishonest. So, the staff of APC supports Dishonest Vendors, right?

That's what I'm seeing.....

And what I'm not hearing is AF.com refunding the shipping difference. If its their mistake---they should cough it up--willingly!

10x $14=$140, 100x$14=$1,400--I'll let You finish the math. Over a yrs time--it definitely will add up!


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

You always could go down to the local nursery or Fert story and pay about $80 and get a 50lb bag of each of the three ferts (I have never actually priced these, but a friend has and I am going off memory, I could be off on the price, it might be a bit higher, but I don't think it is) and never have to buy them again. Then if you are like me just continue to purchase Flourish products for micros from your favorite online vendor, that would fix this shipping issue for good. AF.com wouldn't have anybody to ship to anymore.

That being said, I do hope that this SPONSOR gets the message and makes it a point (not saying they are not) to get this fixed so this discussion can be done and we can all be happy.


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## sherry (Sep 30, 2005)

nah, I need to weigh in with just a couple of points

for the price increase, I have no argument. Greg was trying NOT to make a profit.

the answer on shipping is offensive. If the $14 is a "mistake" by paypal, keeping it is dishonest. If it is not just a mistake, saying it is is again dishonest. 

I have no problem paying a bit more to give these folks a profit. we can't really expect anyone to run the business out of love. Yes Greg did, but who gets to expect to know two Greg Watsons in their life? 

we can expect straight forward business practices from any company and especially one that will hit hte ground running because of a loyal customer base that was created on the no-profit philosophy. NO profit to very fair markup is okay. No profit to anything dishonest has no right to anyone's loyalty.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

sherry said:


> we can expect straight forward business practices from any company and especially one that will hit hte ground running because of a loyal customer base that was created on the no-profit philosophy. NO profit to very fair markup is okay. No profit to anything dishonest has no right to anyone's loyalty.


my thoughts exactly and i haven't been able to say it better.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

http://rexgrigg.com/ferts4sale.html


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## Christian_rubilar (Jul 21, 2005)

Well, i don´t believe in the no profit philosophy. It always produce this kinds of misunderstandings. It works well when something is small, just a few friends who share ferts, plants or whatever. But when this grows things change because it becomes a work and people demands the same than when they pay with huge profit included. 
I think that we shoul be honest with ourselves and think "do i want to beging to buy ferts in big bags and spend my time sending it all arround the country in smaller bags just for the cost or not"? Because as I said, if someone is ready to do it, the problem is solved. Then the volunteers can call pay pal and solve the problem with the shipping calculator as fast as they say that it is. Or you simply can buy somewhere else.
When you do things, to commit mistakes is a posibility. Perhaps Greg didn´t manage as well as a company with great profit does "no problem, we send your money back" or whatever. 
You know, three years ago there was nothing in my country about planted aquariums, no laterite, no Co2 valves, no ferts, just a few kind of plants because some people believe in the no profit filosophy. I organize a no profit buy of laterite because in the jungle with the border with braszil is full of it. I said, lets pay well the guy who send it because this way we will have always unlimited amounts of laterite at low cost. I spent all my saves tio bring 1 ton, my appartment was a red mess, my fiance almost kill me, and there was people who had complaints, of course. My answer was, everything can be done better, sure, next time you do it.
After that bad experience i Keep the no profit philosophy just for my friends.
In summary, it seems to me that the way you are handling this small conflict is not proper. It´s moderators job to call him and solve it like gentelmen instead of this big amount of accusations without him to answer and defense him self.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Christian_rubilar said:


> It´s moderators job to call him and solve it like gentelmen instead of this big amount of accusations without him to answer and defense him self.


Without consulting Art or John, I'd propose that Moderators would be better off not getting involved. It's not really our place to tell someone how to run a private business.

Honestly, I don't understand all the bellyache. Let's be adults here. If you feel like you're being taken advantage of, then don't buy from them. If you think they're dishonest, don't buy from them. If you're upset that Greg's no longer in charge and we don't have access to the same deal as before then tough beans. Take it up with Greg. See how far that gets you. If you wan't to run around shouting injustice at every potential problem that exists with on-line vendors - then by all means go ahead. Conquer those windmills.

If you think you can do a better job, then start a competing business. That's the way the world works. I for one still think they offer a quality product for reasonable prices. Why shouldn't they make a few bucks?

This thread used up it's useful purpose about 300 posts ago. We're beating a dead horse. If anyone can PM me with a good reason to open it back up then I will. Otherwise it's now closed.


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