# 40 gallon Natural VERY low budget



## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi 

I sent up my Very first low budget trial four foot 40 gallon aquarium in late august after having lots of water quality problems with my tanks.

Tank - old used 40 gallon with awful john deer green back.
Substrate- miracle grow garden soil with a few cups of garden soil mixed in topped with Lowe's play sand unwashed.
Heater-used 100 watt 79*f
Light -used 48" fixture with 2 40 watt cool light bulbs

Fish 10 white clouds and approx 20 fry spawn in this tank.
I want to add a few red platies or lemon tetras? 
Plants-
Echinodorus martii,Echinodorus amazonicus,Echinodorus tenellus,Crypt balansae,petchii?,lutea,wendtii red,Red temple,Micro Sword,Java Moss,Pond Penny,Anubias barteri,wisteria,fine leaf water sprite?,horn wort,duck weed,ludwigia?

After a trim









IMG]http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m86/paphstanhopeaandphrags/MVC-302S.jpg[/IMG]










I waited 2 or 3 weeks before adding fish and have lots of small snails appear from the start that do a great job on the algae.No fish losses and only a mild brown algae bloom in the first few weeks that past on its own with no water changes.I top off with water held for a few days out of the tap.

After what i think is a success i sent up a 135 with this method using 600 watts of MH lighting for angel grow out.
Same substrate,dif light and plants
Left side









Early pic of the 40









I am very impressed with method.
Thank you!


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Wow, truly impressive :jaw:



guppyramkrib said:


> Hi
> ....
> Substrate- miracle grow garden soil with a few cups of garden soil mixed in topped with Lowe's play sand unwashed...


If you had told people that you were going to try this before actually trying it, people would have likely advised you against it due to their own notions of why it would not work. Specifically, the miracle grow soil has fertilizers and high level of urea which would contribute to ammonia spikes and algae blooms and the play sand would be too fine and result in compacting, anarobic pockets and dangerous hydrogen sulfide bubbles.

Because you were brave enough to experiment, you proved this wrong. That is why I really believe in experimentation and discovering things for yourself. Excellent job!

Best Regards.


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Thank you!


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Wow, truly impressive :jaw:
> 
> If you had told people that you were going to try this before actually trying it, people would have likely advised you against it due to their own notions of why it would not work. Specifically, the miracle grow soil has fertilizers and high level of urea which would contribute to ammonia spikes and algae blooms and the play sand would be too fine and result in compacting, anarobic pockets and dangerous hydrogen sulfide bubbles.
> 
> ...


That certainly is a fine looking tank!

But the fact that he broke a few "rules" and has still succeeded so far doesn't prove that enriched soil and fine sand are a good substrate. It does demonstrate that risky practices don't always produce bad results. Some heavy cigarette smokers live long healthy lives, too.

IMO, following the more-or-less accepted substrate guidelines is still the best route to a healthy NPT.

Bill


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> That certainly is a fine looking tank!
> 
> But the fact that he broke a few "rules" and has still succeeded so far doesn't prove that enriched soil and fine sand are a good substrate. It does demonstrate that risky practices don't always produce bad results. Some heavy cigarette smokers live long healthy lives, too.
> 
> ...


I guess time will tell. The point is that he was brave enough to push the limits to see what would happen and courageous enough to accept the consequences.

How many contradictions do we see in this hobby. Somone says don't use pool filter sand or play sand as it is the wrong grain size and you will get issues around plant compaction and root rot, yet you can Google the subject for yourself and come across many people who have successfully used pool filter sand in their planted tanks without issues(and not all of those people had Malaysian Trumpet Snails either). Someone says zero nitrates induces Blue Green Algae, but that fails to explain people who have high nitrates and still get Blue Green Algae. Someone says don't put fish in a tank that have different PH requirements and keep your PH at 7 unless you plan to keep a cichlid tank or you will experience many fish deaths. My 8 year old 40 gallon tank is living proof of a community tank with an average PH of 8 that houses and has housed fish with many different PH ranges that remain healthy and have not been impacted by the high PH or differing PH requirements.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> I guess time will tell. The point is that he was brave enough to push the limits to see what would happen and courageous enough to accept the consequences. . . .


I'm not sure that he sat down and decided to "push the limits" just to see what would happen. I've never done that, on a NPT anyway. But I have made enough mistakes with NPT's to see what can happen if you push too much.

You are right about how there are "rules" that are just false. PH myths are a fine example. There is just too much evidence to support the idea that PH isn't as important as people used to think. Still, the myths are repeated.

But I think the bulk of the evidence is that fine sand over soil is not very useful, particularly in a NPT. NPT's require water flow to carry nutrients from the fish waste into the soil part of the substrate. Fine sand reduces that flow, and it also acts as a filter to keep those would-be nutrients away from the soil. But, as you said, some have succeeded with fine sand. I have a feeling that more have had problems with it.

An enriched substrate can work, but if the plant growth should slow those extra nutrients will keep oozing out, and massive algae growth probably will follow. It is risky a risky approach, without much potential return.

Bill


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Yep! Time will tell.I have 32 more tanks in my fish room i may switch over.Forget the constant water changes ect.Ive never read the El Natural book or any others on the natural method and chose to do something that works for me on my low budget after finding basic info here with equipment i already had.I only had to buy $5.00 worth of sand and a few new plants.I have never tested water in 20 years of fresh and marine aquarium keeping.I dont knock anyone who does its just not for me.I like it simple with fair plants & a few healthy active fish. I think that's why i have really come to like this type tank.I can keep my hands out of the water and enjoy. Ill update in a few weeks.

Best Wishes


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> ...
> But I think the bulk of the evidence is that fine sand over soil is not very useful, particularly in a NPT. NPT's require water flow to carry nutrients from the fish waste into the soil part of the substrate. Fine sand reduces that flow, and it also acts as a filter to keep those would-be nutrients away from the soil. *But, as you said, some have succeeded with fine sand.* I have a feeling that more have had problems with it...
> Bill


You certainly have more experience re: NPT tanks and heck I am still learning.

Yes, some have succeeded with it and I am more interested in looking at why those who succeeded did rather than looking at those who failed with the method.

I know Diana mentioned problems she experienced using sand over soil.

Interestingly, the following members did share successes using sand over soil and the fact that even some succeeded means that it is better to look at reasons for their success than outright dismissing the concept altogether. I would rather experiment and see what happens myself than assume the worst.

Cichlid Fry: Successfully used Pool filter sand over soil in his NPT

goldielovr: Successfully set up several tanks with a playsand cap over soil in her NPTS

OneMyndseye: Successfully set up a NPT using an onyx sand cap over soil.

Of course the one thing that they all had in common was Malaysian Trumpet snails which helped to keep the soil and sand aerated.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yes, it will be interesting to see how the sand does over time.

I remember an article by Dr Tim Hovenek who talked about a large tank in the Marineland offices with just a sand substrate that didn't go anaerobic because the plant roots kept enough O2 in the substrate.

I use pool filter media myself and it works great!


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## Dr. Demento (Jul 26, 2007)

In nature there's plenty of healthy growth occurring in sandy, compacted substrates. If it works in the real world, why not in our tanks?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Dr. Demento said:


> In nature there's plenty of healthy growth occurring in sandy, compacted substrates. If it works in the real world, why not in our tanks?


Hmmm....good point. That may have to do with all those little critters that naturally exist in the sand that constantly keep it stirred. So, compaction may only become an issue if you hava a snail-less tank. And as DataGuru pointed out Dr Tim Hovenek's finding that sand did not go anaerobic due to plant roots keeping 02 in the substrate. So, setting up a natural planted tank with heavy rooters like crypts/swords combined with snails and bottom feeders to help keep the sand stirred may make it possible to use a sand only cap over soil in a natural planted tank without problems.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Dr. Demento said:


> In nature there's plenty of healthy growth occurring in sandy, compacted substrates. If it works in the real world, why not in our tanks?


Well, Dr., I have to say that rarely if ever have I found dense growths of plants in sandy, compacted substrates. Usually it is just the opposite - the plants grow in the mud, actually. It isn't capped with anything, though. 

Bill


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## cynkatt (Nov 10, 2007)

really impressive


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Quick Update
Added 9 red wag platies a few days ago.I removed a val species? that never grew very tall from behind the Anubias and hacked down and planted more Ludwigia that i like alot.I need something to take the place of Rotala wallichii next to the wisteria or ill wait for the Crypt.balansae to fill in? Rotala wallichii is my first plant flop in this tank.



















Sorry for the poor quality of my photos.My camera sucks.The tank is not green in person.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

guppyramkrib said:


> I need something to take the place of Rotala wallichii next to the wisteria or ill wait for the Crypt.balansae to fill in? Rotala wallichii is my first plant flop in this tank.


Mine is doing ok.. The growth is alittle stunted but it's growing.. I give it some sunlight... That seems to help.


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Filling in








Thanks for looking


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## Viettxboii (Oct 25, 2007)

one could swear that looks like that of a high tech tank, but you proved them wrong.
But great job! you pulled off a great npt!


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

*Disaster! I did a water change and...*

OK only a small disaster. 
I did a 5 gallon water change a few days ago and my big beautiful red Crypt melted It looked a little funny yesterday and today it's toast. I have had this happen in a few other tanks over the years but this one caught me off guard.I didn't expect this at all. 
All my other plants including the three other crypts and my fish are doing super. More baby platies born in the last few days and my first baby white clouds are starting to spawn with the others every few days.The waters not a bit cloudy or anything.Ill just have to wait for the Crypt to grow back.It started with 6 leaves and grew 50-75 leaves in 4 months.Im so sick! I loved that thing.

No more water changes for me i have learned my lesson with this tank .If it's not broken don't try to fix it.
Sorry had to rant.


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Notice no Crypt.wendtii RED on the left  It has regrown a few leaves and seems to be on the mend.

I might remove the tangle of microsword from the left side and just keep the shorter faster growing E.tenellus.What do you think? Thanks


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I wouldn't worry too much about your crypts melting. I've had various different crypts melt under different circumstances and they've all grown back quite well. A testament to the benefit of a soil based tank, I think. As for removing the micro sword... if it's near the crypt I would leave it for now. I had a sword that I removed that was next to some C. wendtii reds and the removal of the plant caused the crypts to melt, big time. You wouldn't want to stress them any more than they already are. I say leave it as it is for now. I believe you yourself wrote: "If it's not broken don't try to fix it." Besides, the tank looks AWESOME!

-ricardo


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

flagg said:


> I say leave it as it is for now. I believe you yourself wrote: "If it's not broken don't try to fix it." Besides, the tank looks AWESOME!
> 
> -ricardo


Thanks Ricardo
Ill leave it and see what happens.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Good luck! Make sure to let keep us posted on your progress. 

Hey, BTW, is that brazilian pennywort you got going on in the left side? Do you have it buried or is it attached to something?

-ricardo


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

flagg said:


> Good luck! Make sure to let keep us posted on your progress.
> 
> Hey, BTW, is that brazilian pennywort you got going on in the left side? Do you have it buried or is it attached to something?
> 
> -ricardo


Hi Ricardo

I think it's called Hydrocotyle leucocephala. I have it planted and floating.The floating stems grow twice as fast as the planted stuff.More light more growth i guess.It does well with 2 watts per gallon and i like the bright color and leaf shape.
I try to post a pic every week or so.I hope no one minds? I'm just so taken with this system.It's a dream and SO EASY! Planted tanks don't have to be as hard as many make it and you CAN grow a lot of different types of plants and not just Java Fern and Crypts.
I have 2 135's,4 40's,1 55 and several 10-15 gallon all set up "Natural" now.No way would i have the time, energy or money with the traditional system. 
Best Wishes


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Nothing much has changed. I did this top view today and thought it was cool.










Thanks


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I love the most recent shot of your tank! 

Yes, Hydrocotyle leucocephala is aka brazilian pennywort. I love that plant but find that when I anchor it into the substrate, the lower leaves quickly turn yellow and die do you have that prob.?

As for your updates... I like to read updates on people's tank (and I suspect many others do), so don't worry about posting yours. I couldn't believe it either when I first set up an NPT and noticed the explosive growth in my aquarium. You'll find over the next couple of weeks - months things will slow down and there'll be less to "document". But do keep us posted.... 

-ricardo


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

New photo 1-14-08









Approx 6 months old .
It needs a trim and a few baby fish moved.Their must be 30-40 white clouds + platies.

Thanks for looking!


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## Larsen (Dec 17, 2007)

Looks amazing bro!

I have been wondering why everyone tells me that a NPT tank cannot be made to look like a HIGHTECH tank... I mean in the end it's all a mater of aquascaping right?!... and the aquarists ability thereof!

Great tank man... keep us updated!


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## Conankills (Aug 26, 2007)

Any trouble with the sand?
How much was that 48" light? 

Been thinking about a setup with sand in place of gravel. Regarding a light source, I am not about spend the $120 for a light specifically made for aquariums (which I think is just another way to rip people off by calling it an aquarium light and doubling the regular cost, but thats just me.) Figuring I could use any old shop light with 24" or 48" double ballast setup from Home Cheapo.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow what a cool jungle, I love this TANK!!!!!


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Conankills said:


> Any trouble with the sand?
> How much was that 48" light?
> 
> Been thinking about a setup with sand in place of gravel. Regarding a light source, I am not about spend the $120 for a light specifically made for aquariums (which I think is just another way to rip people off by calling it an aquarium light and doubling the regular cost, but thats just me.) Figuring I could use any old shop light with 24" or 48" double ballast setup from Home Cheapo.


Hi
NO the sand is NOT a problem! I don't have trim on the bottom and you can see LOTS! of white healthy roots growing down into the soil layer.The Light is a used shop light from Lowes.I'm sure was only $7.00- $10.00 new. Two cool 40 watt light bulbs @ $2.00 ea. The only other equipment is a heater. 
Best Wishes


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

Larsen said:


> Looks amazing bro!
> 
> I have been wondering why everyone tells me that a NPT tank cannot be made to look like a HIGHTECH tank... I mean in the end it's all a mater of aquascaping right?!... and the aquarists ability thereof!
> 
> Great tank man... keep us updated!


Thanks!!!


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

orlando said:


> Wow what a cool jungle, I love this TANK!!!!!


Thank you!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Looks like my tank. Jungle. I just did a big trim yesterday. Light wasn't reaching the bottom.
I don't know if I'm any good at aquascaping but does look natural.

Can go to my 20gallon long link.


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

*2-13-08 update*










Made a big trim and changed the light bulbs.I also moved as many white clouds and platies that i could catch and moved in a pair of Angels from the 135 that were trying to kill everything.

The only thing i do is top off with aged tap water and thin duckweed and sprite every week or so.
Thanks for looking!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

that looks a lot like my 125! 

So what all plants do you have going on in there?


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## scthomps (Apr 2, 2007)

awesome tank!!!

I run playsand/black sandblasting grit over soil in my tank as well. I think the only drawback is that it takes the plants longer to get established because the roots must first grow through a layer of sand to hit the soil layer. 

Another drawback is the mulm that accumulates around some bushy plants. Strong current seems to keep this to a minimum though.

I replaced one of my shoplights with 4 spiral daylight replacement bulbs from walmart and the growth has been explosive, with some carpet plants i thought were dead and gone popping up again.
I have a 55GAl though and with it being a little higher the extra intensity seems to help.

I enjoy the updates, nice work guppy


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## HoldingWine (Oct 7, 2007)

Looks great! 

So I hear about the disadvantages of sand over soil.... Any advantages?


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> that looks a lot like my 125!
> 
> So what all plants do you have going on in there?


Hi All the original plants on the first page minus the hornwort. Thanks!


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## guppyramkrib (Sep 5, 2007)

HoldingWine said:


> Looks great!
> 
> So I hear about the disadvantages of sand over soil.... Any advantages?


Hi 
I had sand so i used it. I now have it in two 135 gallons,a 55 and four 40 gallon tanks and it works just fine for me.Plants have no problem growing in it at all imo. Best wishes


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## lauraleellbp (Jan 31, 2008)

That's beautiful- thanks so much for sharing it, and it's very encouraging what incredible plant growth you've gotten without all the tinkering that goes along with highTech. I'm hoping I have 1/2 your success with my 90gal; though I'm not going totally NPT...


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