# How many plants to start.



## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Hi Everyone,

Just getting ready to start my first planted aquarium.My soil is prepared and ready to go(thought it wise to do this prior to placing my order for plants obviously).Now when it comes to the plants themselves Im told I need to plant heavily but this of course gives no idea for quantity.

So a little about the tank;

The footprint of the tank is 37x14.5 Inches,and 18 Inches in depth.I will continue to use the filter(at least to begin with,if not permanently) as the tank is currently stable with it.I will be capping the soil with the gravel already in the tank(I put it in as this would also be containing beneficial bacteria to some degree(correct me if I am wrong here)by doing so).

Question is how many plants(there will be a mixture of Foreground,Mid and Background as well as a good mix of species)will I ideally need?

Thanks in advance.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"Heavily planted" means that when you look down on the tank from above, plant foliage covers 75% of the substrate. This really does take a lot of plants! Lots of healthy plants are so important to a new tank that you may need to economize and buy inexpensive plants that you are not crazy about.

A mix of species is best to start because every tank is different. Sometimes a particular species will not do well in a particular tank despite all the parameters looking good. It is especially important to have a balance of fast-growing and slower-growing plants. The fast-growing species do the water-cleaning work when the tank is new, so you should put more of them in.

As the tank matures and you learn what species grow well and which ones you like, you can take out some or all of the fast growing plants if you like. 

Many people are afraid to transplant or make major changes in Walstad tanks because it might disturb the soil. You can make major changes; just do them a little at a time. Make sure your filters are working well, and add some mechanical filtration if necessary to remove soil particles from the water. Another technique is when removing a large plant with a big root system, you do not need to pull all the roots out. Just gently pull the plant until an inch or two of the roots are exposed, then cut those roots at the substate. The plant will quickly re-grow roots in its new location, and the old roots you left in the substrate will decompose.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers Michael these are the two lists Im looking at right now,will probably go with one or the other unless anyone thinks some mix and match is appropiate.

List One;

5 x Echinodorus Tennellus
5 x Hygrophilia Polysperma
5 x Red Ludwigia
5 x Ambulia Aquatica
5 x Bacopa Monniera
5 x Red Ivy
5 x Diplis Diandra
5 x Vallis Torta
5 x Elodea Densa
5 x Hairgrass
5 x Bacopa Caroliniana
5 x Pygmy Chain Sword
5 x Cabomba Aquatica
5 x Vallis Corkscrew sml
5 x Crypt Lucens
5 x Water Wisteria
5 x Crypt Ciliata
5 x Creeping Jenny
5 x Sagittaria Subulata


List Two;

5 x Crypt Nevilli
5 x Hygrophilia Polysperma
5 x Red Ludwigia
5 x Ambulia Aquatica
5 x Bacopa Monniera
5 x Rotal Macrandra
5 x Diplis Diandra
5 x Vallis Torta
5 x Elodea Densa
5 x Hairgrass
5 x Bacopa Caroliniana
5 x Bacopa Myriophyliodes
5 x Cabomba aquatica
5 x Vallis Corkscrew sml
5 x Crypt Lucens
5 x Water Wisteria
5 x Crypt Ciliata
5 x Crypt Balansae
5 x Crypt Wendtii
5 x Sea Grass
5 x Needle Leaf Ludwigia
3 x Nymphea Stellata
1 x Java Moss
5 x Red Ambulia


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## Luffy (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm sure both of these lists would be great! The only thing to think about is that the pygmy chain sword will not do well if it is shaded by taller plants or if the light isn't strong enough. They really do need good light to stay healthy.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers for the heads up Luffy much appreciated.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I think I would start with about a third of those plants. Maybe less. 

Something like one grassy small plant, two or three kinds of stems , one kind of crypt and maybe one or two other rooted plants.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I believe Bruce is referring to the the number of species, not the number of individual plants.

This is an aesthetic choice. The two lists you give have a large number of species with relatively few individuals of each species. Most people find it difficult to create a pleasing design with such a large variety. But that is really a personal choice. And having a large number of species does allow you to choose your favorites later, and simplify the design at that time.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers for the feedback guys.

I should really clarify my long term plan for the tank as it may put those lists in to perspective.

In Diana's book she speaks of trying a large number of different species as you don't know to begin with at least what ones will thrive and which wont in your individual circumstances.So hence the variety at this point.

Once I can see the variety's that thrive I will be cutting down more in line with the number of species that I believe Bruce is getting at.It will be once I am down to half a dozen preferred and flourishing species that I will begin to build my final aquascape for the tank.

I also have a second tank of the same size currently not in use so if more species that expected start to flourish then what is not used in the first tank will be moved to the second until a theme for that one is decided,again based on the choices available to me at that time.

While I am waffling away here I really should add this is a great forum you have here,I feel I am learning a lot just from reading about others experiences(Although like most noob's it seems to raise as many questions as answers at times lol).


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I would readily defer to Michael as he has the better expertise here. My concern is mostly the number of species and the possible failure rate. Not so much because I am cheap, though I am, but mostly because having a plant disintegrate can easily cause imbalances. 

Just as an example I recently took a crypt ciliata out of a tank because it was developing some kind of alga on its leaves persistently. Yet from my experience I know C wendtii will almost always thrive.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Bruce raises a good point. Especially in new tanks, if a plant or group of plants starts to fail, one should be careful to remove dead leaves and stems. And if the plants do not recover after a reasonable length of time, it's best to take them all out.

Of course this is a matter of judgement and experience. But with a large variety like Jay is planning, my tendency would be to discard poorly performing plants quickly. Sometimes I see beginner's tanks in which failed plants are left in place much too long.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers for the advice guys.

So the general consensus would be to lower the number of species in the list and up the quantity in each group to keep the overall numbers up?

Maybe like Bruce said a third and then up the quantity of each to 10-15.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Correct.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers Michael I will revise my list and get back to you all and see what you all think.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

OK so I have been going through these lists,to start with I was trying to be specific but this highlighted something so I started taking 5 species at random.

Very quickly what I noticed is to buy 5 species 15 of each,75 plants in total is a sight more expensive that buying a pre packed list like those I posted earlier in the thread.

Now I'm not a cheap skate but almost twice the price for 3/4 as many plants just does not look like any kind of deal to me.I think I may stick to one of the lists and be prepared to pull a number of species as they show any kind of signs of demise.

Considering that which ever way I go I could encounter casualties it makes no sense at this point to attempt to specialize.I know this goes against the general advice being given to me but,I would rather spend significantly less money whilst quite probably not actually upping my workload to begin with.

I just feel I can be more specific later down the line once I have some ideas as to what will and will not thrive in my particular environment.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

That is cool Jay just do what is cheapest and easiest for you. No problem with that.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I agree with Bruce. I'm spoiled by being a member of a very active club that trades plants constantly. It's surprising that there is that much difference in price!


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers guys.

I will keep the forum updated as to progress.I will start a new thread when I start to assemble the new set up starting with some before pictures etc.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Just wondering on the thoughts of the more experienced among you.Am I really better off buying a cheap large collection(the type I listed previously,sold by Java Aquatic Plants)when I know these are most likely to be cuttings,hence the price or am I better off paying more for potted plants,the like of which that are sold by the likes of Aqua Essentials?

Obviously I get a better variety with the cheaper set but I could pay when it comes to quality.


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## K Randall (Nov 23, 2004)

IMO, the very best way for a new aquatic gardener to get a good selection and a LOT of plants that already like local water conditions is to find a local aquarium club (plant club or general) and go to one of their auctions. There are likely to be TONS of easy plants available cheap, and you will be able to get direct advice on growing them from local people.

Incidentally, both the plant lists you posted include Hygrophila polysperma. This palnt is not legal to ship across state lines, and I don't even think it can be legally sold commercially. I worry slightly about the suppliers of these "starter kits" when they are knowingly selling these plants to people. Not to say that the plant isn't around in the hobby... It is. But it is considered a noxious weed in every state. (and should be... If you get it, do NOT let it escape into the wild)


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Cheers for the heads up Randall.The legalities may be different here in the UK which is allowing it to be shipped,however if that is amongst those packages that may be reason enough to leave them alone.

I personally would never introduce anything in to the natural world for any reason,especially as we have so many different eco-systems available to us within our hobby,that could be devastating to any natural enviroment.


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## bkhoshza (Aug 24, 2012)

Michael said:


> Bruce raises a good point. Especially in new tanks, if a plant or group of plants starts to fail, one should be careful to remove dead leaves and stems. And if the plants do not recover after a reasonable length of time, it's best to take them all out.


If I may ask a quick question about the statement above. 
Why would it be better to remove the dead leaves and stems as oppose to leaving them in there to decompose?


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## bkhoshza (Aug 24, 2012)

nvm. simple Google search explained it.


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## PigBeast (Jan 28, 2013)

Hey guys, I have been lurking around these forums for a few weeks now and I see a lot of talk about Aquarium clubs. The closest club meets over two hours away and I cannot find the time to make that trip. What would be the best way to acquire some cheap starter plants that I could later pass on to a beginner down the road?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

PigBeast said:


> Hey guys, I have been lurking around these forums for a few weeks now and I see a lot of talk about Aquarium clubs. The closest club meets over two hours away and I cannot find the time to make that trip. What would be the best way to acquire some cheap starter plants that I could later pass on to a beginner down the road?


Welcome to APC!

I can make three suggestions:

1. If you have a good local fish store, ask if they will order some plants for you. Don't bother with the big chain stores.

2. Watch the For Sale forum here. This is probably the lowest cost and highest quality source if you don't have a local club.

3. Order from one of the on-line retailers. I have no personal experience with this, so check other members comments about different retailers.


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## PigBeast (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks. The LFS here only keeps a handful of plants(unattractive), I intend on asking about special orders. I see a lot of bad reviews on most online sources so that makes me reluctant. Don't I need to have a set number of posts to use the For Sale forum? I would prefer to source my plants from a fellow hobbyist if I could. I am not begging for freebies and I will pay what the plants are worth.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hi PB,

yes, I believe there is a minimum number of posts before one can start a thread in the FS/Trade forum.

But about the club being a distance away.... at least around here (central MA, USA) there are local fish clubs such as the Boston Aquarium Club, or the Tropical Fish Society of Rhode Island, which hold once-a-year auctions. These are all day events, but since they're "big", they are worth the travel time, IMO. 

And do keep an eye out on the FS/trade area - keep reading here on El Natural, and posting, and before you know it, you can put up a request! This time of year, it might be helpful to know your whereabouts, too (in your profile), since Shipping Temperatures are so variable. Someone shipping from, say, Florida to Texas wouldn't have an issue, but here in the Northeast, we've had single digit temps lately.

One other word of caution - research the plants, to make sure they ARE aquatic. I'm still amazed (and not in a good way) at the plants I see showing up as "aquarium plants" - sheesh! Houseplants, submerged, selling for far more than they're worth.... plus, they're doomed. 

I like the earlier suggestions about getting several fast growing varieties, then swapping them out as the tank matures. 

I'm glad Michael mentioned about cutting the roots of larger plants when moving them - I used to be VERY afraid to do this, but have learned that they do recover very quickly as long as they have a few inches of the root ball, so now.... chop, chop, chop...!!

-Jane


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## PigBeast (Jan 28, 2013)

Jane, I have been doing tons of research on plants and I know what I am looking for. I know there is a club in Louisville, Ky which is the closest. I will look into the next meeting and try to get over there to one sometime(2 hr drive). Until then I will just keep on reading while I wait for the silicone in my 50g to cure and my topsoil to mineralize. Hopefully my LFS will have a good selection to order from for now.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hey PB,

Great - researching and learning about a plant before its in your tank is always best.

Here's a thought - does the Louisville club have a website? I know the BAS does. You might put up a post and mention that you'll be at the next meeting, and looking for plants. Any folks who are on the borderline of trim/don't trim may opt to do so, and bring their clippings. 

-Jane


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Sorry I aint posted for a while but,you know how it is life gets in the way from time to time.

Anyway my plants arrived yesterday afternoon and I was planning on planting the tank today but,sadly being called in to work again,so it is not going to happen today.

Now I know I cannot leave the plants in thier packing indefinetly but to keep them alive and fresh would it be advisable to get them in my QT until I am able to spend the time planting them.I am thinking leave them in thier pots put them in the QT and dose daily to keep them well.

Right or wrong?Any feedback greatly appreciated.


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Dont worry I got an informative answer on a more active forum but,thanks for your time anyway.

Admin you can delete my account as I see no point in coming back as the other forum is active and answer questions etc,so I think my time will be better spent there.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I see that approximately 3 hours elapsed between your two last posts. Ever heard the saying, "Patience is a virtue"?


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

If we wanted to be patient, do you think we'd be doing planted aquariums?


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## JayBloke (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael said:


> I see that approximately 3 hours elapsed between your two last posts. Ever heard the saying, "Patience is a virtue"?


I popped back on the off chance there had been any posts,so thought your observation deserved a response as you helped me out when I first came here.

It may have been ONLY three hours but during that time there was more that 80 members logged in a number being admin and mods,I just felt that with between 8-10 people constantly viewing this sub forum that someone could have responded.

It had been some time since I last logged in and yet I managed to read all the threads that had additional posts since my last visit in that time,yet in the same time frame a simple yes or no answer could not be provided by anyone.

Whilst waiting I signed up for another forum and asked the question there,it had LESS members logged in as here,yet I got a number of answers with a list of recommendations as well as links to some online resources for my 'newbie' questions.I ad been a member there less than 20 minutes!!!

I am sorry if my post came across as ungrateful but,us newbies tend to be a bit impatient as a rule and as was stated had to go back in to work with no I idea as to the time I would be away and just wished that my plants could be given the best chance of survival,as I assume leaving them in the bags(call outs can be hours or days away from home in my line of work),for too long would have meant coming home to compost material,which ideally I wished to avoid,due to the cost involved.

Like I say sorry for an offence caused but,if you check above this post(granted I said I dont need an answer anymore)you will notice the question still generated no response as to the origional issue,and I doubt I will be the last newbie to have this or similar problems.


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## Bardus71 (Sep 29, 2011)

I am a member of a much more active forum than this as well, however, Walstad/NPT/El Natural is still a sub genre of a small genre within the genre of fishkeeping. This is the best place for asking NPT related questions. It has alot of good resources and useful information specific to NPTs. It even has the guru herself, Diana Walstad moderate and contribute to this sub forum. There's no harm in seeking info elsewhere, but this sub forum is the place to be for NPT related info. 

To keep the ball rolling on this pertinent thread, I asked a million questions when starting out. One that I found quite helpful was how close to plant the plants, which will in tern, affect the number of plants you will need. The rule of thumb advised was to plant them leaf tip to leaf tip, so as they grew, each leaf would have acces to light, and not be shaded. It was inevitable that some got shaded, and those that did had their leaves die off. So, for example, Hygrophila polysperma has a leaf size of up to an inch in circumference around the stem. The stems end up about 2 inches apart when planting from one stems leaf tip to the leaf tip of the next stem. Compare this to, say, Mayaca fluviatilis with a leaf size of approximately 1cm circumference around the stem, and you may need up to four to plant tip to tip, to fill the same space as the circumference of the Hygrophila polysperma. Not 100% correct, but you get the idea of the illustration I am sure.


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## Arendahl (Mar 16, 2013)

Michael said:


> "Heavily planted" means that when you look down on the tank from above, plant foliage covers 75% of the substrate. This really does take a lot of plants! Lots of healthy plants are so important to a new tank that you may need to economize and buy inexpensive plants that you are not crazy about.
> 
> A mix of species is best to start because every tank is different. Sometimes a particular species will not do well in a particular tank despite all the parameters looking good. It is especially important to have a balance of fast-growing and slower-growing plants. The fast-growing species do the water-cleaning work when the tank is new, so you should put more of them in.
> 
> ...


 Hey Michael. I really like your approach to work in Low-Tech aquarium, it is fully in line with my idea.


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