# Soil as a substrate...



## underwurlde (May 13, 2007)

Need some help / reassurances here.

I've been intreagued by the use of 'soil' as a substrate in planted tanks and as a result I would like to give it a try using a Diana Walstad 'El Natural' / Tom Barr mimimal EI dosing with Excel.

Because these type of setups depend on setting up a 'soil' substrate so I have put a lot of effort into trying to establish exactly what this consists of.

So far my basic soil substrate will consist of an equal measure of soil (literally dug up from my back garden), Westland John Innes No.2 Potting-On Compost and coarse rounded sand (KelKay Horticultural Grit Sand - cleaned).
Q) Any feedback on this mix welcomed.

Now at the mo, I have a test sample of this soaking in a pot in my garage. And yes, it is literally just muddy water so I am VERY concerned at putting this any where near my tank (of course, it will be convered by 1" of sand, but you should see it, not encouraging at all!).
Q) How muddy do soil substrate tanks get!?

Anyway, something I couldn't quite figure out was the business of leeching chemicals out of this 'soil' substrate before using it in a tank (with fish).
Q) Some say to soak it for 6 weeks, others to boil it for 15 mins. I would of course prefer to boil it, but would doing so remove some 'goodness' or is a good idea as it will kill any nasties lurking therein?

I guess what I am seeking is a reassurance that this is indeed a good idea. I am not entirely enamoured with this idea of bunging just any old soil in my tank, but this whole idea, when I first came across it, just made sense to me and I have been itching to try it ever since!

TIA,

Andy


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Most people stay away from soil, esp from the gardens, for the simple reason that it can become messy when later on you want to change the way your tank looks. If you don't mind that, I'd say go for it. I am all for experimenting and experiencing in your own ways. Because at the end of the day, people can tell you what they do but it still might not make any sense to you unless you try it yourself.

Having said that, and having done the tanks using soil, I have to say I don't like it. And again, this all goes back to the fact that it creates lots of mess later on, not to mention whatever chemicals lurking in the backyard that might leach into the tank. 

It IS doable but you just have to do some research on what kindda chemicals the soil you plan on using contains. This is mainly to ensure you don't end up with dead fish and plants later. 

Good luck and maybe you can show us your tank's progress later The El Naturale Section of the Forum contains lots of valuable informations about using soil as the substrate in fish tank.


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## underwurlde (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Paul,

Indeed I have a 'sample' soaking right now and will be monitoring stats.

My biggest question I would like answering is that I know my soil mix will need leeching of chemicals and that this can be done by simply soaking it for 6 to 8 weeks. Other say that boiling it for 15 mins can be also be done.

But this raises the question of the pro's and cons of soaking as opposed to boiling:
Will boiling leech as much chemicals as soaking for 6-8 weeks?
If soil is boiled, does this remove anything useful from the soil.
On the other hand, if soil is simply soaked (not sterilzed by boiling), what nasties will remain?

Questions, questions!

Andy

PS, someone on (ahem, another forum) cleverly suggested placing kitchen roll over the soil substrate before adding the sand layer to keep things clean when first setting up.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I've got soil (ordinary garden soil) in a tank and didn't soak it at all! The fish are all fine (including wild angels and breeding pelvicachromis). I've got a rather big algae problem on this tank (cladophora), but i'm sure this is down to the irregular maintenance as this tank's at school and I don't have a lot of time to keep it tidy and it has a automatic feeder that tends to be a bit generous in it's helpings! I don't think it has anything to to with the soil which my crypts especially seem to love!

I don't think you'll need the kitchen roll and it will just break down over time, but I don't think it would cause any harm.

I would just soak it and pour off the waste water then use the soil. I think the idea of this is mainly to reduce any ammonia produced by the soil so boiling wouldn't help that especially. Boiling will, of course kill any bacteria, worms or other fauna in the soil, but any that won't survive under water will be killed by the soaking.


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## underwurlde (May 13, 2007)

The idea of soaking is to leech out any chemicals therein, espcially ammonia. Your algae bloom is more than likely becasue of this. The leeching process (when simply soaking in water) takes about 6 to 8 weeks. This is why bunging soil straight into a tank with fish (and indeed plants) is a bad idea, due to the huge ammonia spike. Bit like AquaSoil really.... (Hmmm.... I wonder...)

Yes the kitchen roll will dissolve over time, and therein lies the beaty of this idea. It is there only to prevent the tank from becomming excessivly turbid when setting up.

Andy


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

underwurlde said:


> The idea of soaking is to leech out any chemicals therein, espcially ammonia. Your algae bloom is more than likely becasue of this. The leeching process (when simply soaking in water) takes about 6 to 8 weeks. This is why bunging soil straight into a tank with fish (and indeed plants) is a bad idea, due to the huge ammonia spike. Bit like AquaSoil really.... (Hmmm.... I wonder...)
> 
> Yes the kitchen roll will dissolve over time, and therein lies the beaty of this idea. It is there only to prevent the tank from becomming excessivly turbid when setting up.
> 
> Andy


The algae only started when the automatic feeder went on and also reduced when the feeder was removed so I'm sure the problem is not related to the soil. The tank has been set up since September and the algae started to appear in March, when the feeder went on. That has supplied the nutrients IMO. Tha same algae has also appeared in a rearing tank that is fed heavily to rear on the fry.

I did check for Ammonia and Nitrite and, because I used a previously established filter, neither ever registered on the test kits. Doesn't mean trace amounts weren't there of course but they never hung around long enough to register on a test kit.

My point of posting was to answer your query about soaking or boiling and to say that nothing bad happened with my soil without soaking so I don't think you need to boil it. I have also used topsoil for re-potting my pond plants for years without any negative effect on my koi. I only mentioned the algae for completeness; it isn't linked.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I've never used soil but...

Keep in mind that all soils are different so what works for one one way may not work for another. So some soils will have more ammonia (and other things) than others.

But the best info on this is Diana's El Natural forum right here on APC!  I'm going to move the thread over there.


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## snowhillbilly (Mar 29, 2006)

As far as making a mess, I put a large piec of plastic over the top of the soil when Im filling it. Then once its full slowly remove the plastic of the bottom.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm using soil from my yard in my "el Natural"(NPT) tank. I've lived here many years, so I am confidant that this soil had no pesticides or added fertilizers in it. I put it straight into the tank with no boiling or soaking. What chemicals do you feel need leaching out? If the soil is questionable, do as other NPT tank people do and buy some simple bagged topsoil.

I sifted my soil with a kitchen strainer which removed any bits of wood, rocks, larger organics and bugs. Putting a 1" cap of gravel and pouring onto a plate when filling the tank prevents the water from getting muddy - a tiny bit cloudy, which settles in a few days. By heavily planting with rooted plants and floaters right away, you get a minimal ammonia spike or none at all. If you don't plant heavily at first you may get spikes. Alot of NPT folks wait a week or two before adding fish, keeping track of ammonia and nitrites, though.

Be aware that in a true NPT the plants are allowed to take up ammonium before it is converted into nitrates, as is their preference. We don't use biological filters - sometimes no filters at all. I have found that this not only keeps my ammonia and nitrites at 0 but nitrates at 0 as well (I think they never get a chance to form). If you use biological filtration and dose EI you will change this balance and may get spikes.

Highly recommend Diana's book - maybe you'll try her method, it's amazing and alot of fun.

Cheers,
Cindy


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

The idea of partitioning the soil is a good one. Even though it won't completely prevent the soil from being stirred up when uprooting plants, it's better than nothing. 

As for leaching chemicals, from my own experience in using potting soil, I haven't encountered any problem as far as fish mortality goes. But definitely take caution in reading what the soil you will be using contains. I also never boil the soil I use. I guess I am just too lazy in that respect 

If all else fails, you can always use an yet another type of soil which is fail-safe! It is Aquasoil. This is my favorite soil for aquarium purpose.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

The main purpose of soaking soil is to allow excessive organics to oxidize ("burn off") and to aid in getting rid of unwanted things like sticks and bugs that could cause problems later.

I soak mine for two weeks, with several partial water changes during that period. It is then fit for use. Some say an alternative is to spread the soil on a sheet outside for a day, to get rid of free ammonia.

I use the least expensive topsoil that I can buy. If I had a safe nearby source I might use that, but for about $3 for 40 pounds, it is easier for me to buy it. 

I usually have an outbreak of algae(s) in the early days of the tank, but it soon dies out. In my most recent tank a patch of BGA appeared, but a three day treatment with an antibiotic cleared it up.

I have had no problems in removing plants from a soil-based tank. I use a 1 to 2 inch gravel cap (2mm - 3mm diameter) over the soil. Some mud might appear in the water column, but it soon settles and/or is removed by a filter. I recently removed a huge sword plant that dominated a 29 gallon tank, without any significant problems. In this case, I cut the roots of the plant about an inch below the surface of the substrate. The old roots decomposed and became part of the substrate.

Good luck!

Bill


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Underwurlde, I continue to be amazed at what is contained in Diana Walstad's Book - Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. I reread the book every 2 months. I am continually learning or relearning some GREAT stuff. I was very unsure about putting DIRT into my aquarium. Seachem helped me with my success initially with planted aquariums. Learning El Naturale for me was not easy. It is about having a 'Leap Of Faith' in nature. My wife of course would look at me (from outside the hobby) and say, "Sure. Why not? Plants, dirt. They go together. Duh!" But that is from outside the hobby. 

Friends here basically told me to give it a try. If it did not work, they were going to ship me everything I would need to start over. That confidence gave ME confidence. I am not going to say that it will be perfect. But give it a shot. Also go to the library and borrow the book. Or purchase the HARD COPY online (not the eBook!). APC used to have a link here. I got a great deal. 

If it helps, click on my links and follow what I experienced with my various tanks. Not everything was perfect but I can tell you that with time, I am adding a 1 & 1/2 inch layer of soil to each tank as I have the time to do so. Also a 10 Gallon tank costs $10.00 . Give it a shot with a 10 Gallon tank. 

Let us know how it works for you. I wish you the best. 

Jimbo205


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