# First Dirt tank for Ellasoma



## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Hi. This is my first time posting however I've read as a visitor from the site a few times. I was told to ask my questions here and I accidentally made an account and went to the planted tank instead ? oops







I'm sure it's a great resource and I'm new to live plants anyway but I still wanted to ask my questions where I was originally advised to so here I go again lol.

I am getting some Ellasoma and was told a dirted tank was best so I layed about 1.5" of miracle grow organic potting soil then about .75" of pool filter sand followed by about 1" of pea gravel in a 10g tank. Tho I am not required to use a filter for this particular native fish I plan to put a small internal filter in to move the water because I'm averse to air pumps. I planted as many plants as I have available but I have a few more on order. I hadn't read about the walstad method and just found out that I should have mixed clay in the soil. I also didn't wet and dry it several times. How disastrous is this mistake? Also how is cycling done? At this time I have only a nerite snail in tank. I have 1 clamp lamp over it with a 75 watt 6500k bulb. Can anyone tell me if this lighting will be sufficient and what problems I may encounter? The tank is sitting half in front of a window as well. Also I would appreciate any advice in general or specifically to correct my mistakes. I haven't ordered my fish yet if I must begin again but I'm surely hoping I won't need to. I'm in Phoenix Arizona in case that matters. Thank you <3


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

CricketMclean said:


> Hi. This is my first time posting however I've read as a visitor from the site a few times. I was told to ask my questions here and I accidentally made an account and went to the planted tank instead ? oops
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok I see many things I can help you on  welcome btw!

When you uh.. dirted your tank, did you pull out all the wood and such? and sift it?
Also a filter is required in ALL tanks (basically) unless your going a walstad route but if your new I don't suggest that really. imo. 
Also what is the native fish? 
When you dirt a tank you should have the dirt, and a cap, nothing more or else, or else problems may arise. You have to much going on... making problems very possible. 
I think what is "required" here is way more research into dirting a tank, and you came to just the right place 
Don't put your tank in front of a window or else you Will have algae issues. 
Bacopa monnieri required medium to high light btw... (you have this plant in your pics)
Your lighting isn't enough for the plants you have imo, I would get a fluval aquasky or something. usually goes for 100$ on the spot. Low priced.
Think I also see a crypt. balansae in there... Also medium to high light. Co2 required and fertilizers, etc.. its a HEAVY root feeder, like all crypts. 
Did you boil the driftwood?
Where did you get it?
Water parameters?
cycled?


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

When you uh.. dirted your tank, did you pull out all the wood and such? and sift it?

I did sift it using my kitchen colander  so I'd say most of the wood was pulled.

Also a filter is required in ALL tanks (basically) unless your going a walstad route but if your new I don't suggest that really. imo. 
Also what is the native fish?

The "filter not required" thing comes from information from the folks who've raised the fish. I'm probably going to get the Elassoma okefenokee or e. Gilberti. It's a native nano from the coastal regions of the U.S. they say filters aren't needed just run an air stone to move the water. But I'd rather move the water with a filter personally.

When you dirt a tank you should have the dirt, and a cap, nothing more or else, or else problems may arise. You have to much going on... making problems very possible.

I had read in several places to use sand and gravel to keep the soil down. Do you think I should get rid of the sand? Or gravel? Or replace both with something else lol?

I think what is "required" here is way more research into dirting a tank, and you came to just the right place

That's fortunate because I have heard so much inconsistency that my head is spinning!

Don't put your tank in front of a window or else you Will have algae issues.

Again. I had read to put the tank in a window that gets plenty of light :/

Bacopa monnieri required medium to high light btw... (you have this plant in your pics)

These plants are new. I was told by the lfs that they would be fine in a low tech tank. They had it in a low tech tank however I do think they had decent lighting on theirs.

Your lighting isn't enough for the plants you have imo, I would get a fluval aquasky or something. usually goes for 100$ on the spot. Low priced.

My budget is pretty much used. I can move those plants to a tank that has better lighting. Can you recommend any replacement plants that don't need high light? Is the penny wart ok? (Penny something anyway) The one around the wood I think?

Think I also see a crypt. balansae in there... Also medium to high light. Co2 required and fertilizers, etc.. its a HEAVY root feeder, like all crypts.

The crypt on the far left was a "betta bulb" and was doing pretty well in my 55 which has a decent light but also low tech. I thought it was some kind of Lilly lol  The other crypt I can't remember which tank I stole it from but I think it was a low light tank. Admittedly it hasn't grown much (at all). I guess it should go to the 55 also? (Satellite plus pro)

Did you boil the driftwood?
Where did you get it?

The wood came from another tank but before that a fish store and yes it was cleaned. Not boiled as it didn't fit but soaked for several weeks and I poured boiling water over it. But not again when I moved it.

Water parameters?
Cycled?

I haven't tested it. I just finished it a few days ago ish (less than a week) I had read that the plants should do what bacteria would do in a planted tank however I'm not counting on that. I am wondering if there are any differences in how you cycle this kind of tank. I'll go ahead and test now and report shortly. Meanwhile here's a couple links to a little preview of these fishes. Maybe it would help you make plant recommendations as well? 








Thank you so much for helping. I really appreciate it!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

CricketMclean said:


> When you uh.. dirted your tank, did you pull out all the wood and such? and sift it?
> 
> I did sift it using my kitchen colander  so I'd say most of the wood was pulled.
> 
> ...


Ill go in a uniformed suggestion list 

Plants I recommend:
crypt. parva
Anubias species
Pennywort sp. (your Brazilian pennywort is fine)
java fern is ok
etc

Substrate issue:
remove the pea gravel

Filtration:
Yes you need a filter for this fish... I'm assuming your getting this information from your LFS?... common mistake.. Get a good HOB for this type of tank. Don't get a cheap inside the tank filter. Get a nice, trusty, good reviewed, HOB.

In front of your window:
nope. Unless you want constant random algae issues and breakouts (not good for plants, or the fish really) move it to a different location.

Lighting:
if it isn't in your budget... I cant really do anything there, just lowers your plant list sadly.

Fish:
Pygmy Sunfish is a rarity to the hobbys nowadays, tried to get my hands on it several times and I couldn't. They are pretty, and Difficult. No it is not a beginner fish, fun fact; *no wild caught native fish is a easy fish, they are All Difficult.

Wood:
Sounds good, but softwood or hardwood?

Cycling:
plants do not help the cycling process at all imo. They help it in some ways, such as eating nitrites and ammonia which is bad for fish (you shouldn't have fish while cycling anyways) and nitrates....
They don't really do anything to the cycling process imo. Scientifically speaking, they do have a large effect though. 
Its all about ammonia levels, and how much bio filtration you have.

*


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> CricketMclean said:
> 
> 
> > When you uh.. dirted your tank, did you pull out all the wood and such? and sift it?
> ...


Thanks for all your help. I am new to plants tho I have been keeping fish for a few years. I wouldn't think of myself as an expert by any means. I have some fish being held for me. If I'm blessed and they breed perhaps you would like some? I will work on your suggestion right away. I think I may end up robbing Peter to pay Paul and give this tank a better light.

The nerite in the tank hitched a ride on the wood. I can't remember what type of wood it is but would guess soft. The day I set it up I moved my betta, his heater and his filter in so I could rescape his tank. They stayed for a day and moved back to their own tank. The nerite has been cleaning up the wood since they arrived.

Here are the results of my testing. Looks like I got nothing.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

CricketMclean said:


> Thanks for all your help. I am new to plants tho I have been keeping fish for a few years. I wouldn't think of myself as an expert by any means. I have some fish being held for me. If I'm blessed and they breed perhaps you would like some? I will work on your suggestion right away. I think I may end up robbing Peter to pay Paul and give this tank a better light.
> 
> The nerite in the tank hitched a ride on the wood. I can't remember what type of wood it is but would guess soft. The day I set it up I moved my betta, his heater and his filter in so I could rescape his tank. They stayed for a day and moved back to their own tank. The nerite has been cleaning up the wood since they arrived.
> 
> Here are the results of my testing. Looks like I got nothing.


For cycling, start adding fish food every other day.

If your wood is softwood, it will deteriorate fairly quickly... within a few years. softwood is cypress and cedar for example. Cedar is a very good aquascaping wood however for short term scapes.

I'd love some of them, cant find them anywhere! :tea:


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Awesome thank you. Now you're invested in my success lol. I'll update my progress. Again, I really appreciate the help.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

np


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Your tank is gorgeous!! 

I think having it by a window is fine as long as you have a blind on the window. I read about the lighting issue... What if you kept the light you have, but open your blinds for two hours or so each day? That way you have the strongest high lighting that no product can match (the sun). 

I "cycled" my tank with pure ammonia. I just put a few drops in my 29 couple times throughout the day to "imitate" a fish being in there, along with some snails that ended up in there "somehow". I just kept doing that until my readings showed 0ppm.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Paradise fish said:


> Your tank is gorgeous!!
> 
> I think having it by a window is fine as long as you have a blind on the window. I read about the lighting issue... What if you kept the light you have, but open your blinds for two hours or so each day? That way you have the strongest high lighting that no product can match (the sun).
> 
> I "cycled" my tank with pure ammonia. I just put a few drops in my 29 couple times throughout the day to "imitate" a fish being in there, along with some snails that ended up in there "somehow". I just kept doing that until my readings showed 0ppm.


Thing is she doesn't have enough nutrients in the water (or plants) for the plants to absorb the light, and she doesn't have the right plants to absorb that missing nutrients. Not the right setup.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

There are still conflicting ideas about how to start a new planted aquarium, how much light to use, etc. For example, consider: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...35746-cycling-planted-aquarium-important.html

My idea about lighting is that you should try for uniform, consistent light intensity every day. To do that you need to be in control of the lighting, and you can never be in control of the sun - too many variables. So, I never put an aquarium where direct sun light can touch it, and I prefer to limit even indirect sun light. I'm not saying I am the only one who is right about this, and I know that Diana Walstad recommends sunlight for her method, but I just don't agree with her on this.

For a substrate there are good reasons for mineralizing topsoil before trying to use it in an aquarium. The best reason is again to have complete control over the environment in the tank. And, again Diana Walstad does not second my idea. I agree with DutchMuch that it is best to use a coarse sand as a top layer, not the pea gravel you have. Two layers is the most that make any sense to me.

As far as the fish go, I am totally ignorant about the fish you are planning to use!

For good planted aquarium lighting on a 10 gallon tank you can use 6500K 13 watt screw-in fluorescent bulbs in a standard 10 gallon tank light fixture, and you should have plenty of light for those plants.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> My idea about lighting is that you should try for uniform, consistent light intensity every day. To do that you need to be in control of the lighting, and you can never be in control of the sun - too many variables. So, I never put an aquarium where direct sun light can touch it, and I prefer to limit even indirect sun light. I'm not saying I am the only one who is right about this, and I know that Diana Walstad recommends sunlight for her method, but I just don't agree with her on this.


Well said


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Paradise fish said:


> Your tank is gorgeous!!
> 
> I think having it by a window is fine as long as you have a blind on the window. I read about the lighting issue... What if you kept the light you have, but open your blinds for two hours or so each day? That way you have the strongest high lighting that no product can match (the sun).
> 
> I "cycled" my tank with pure ammonia. I just put a few drops in my 29 couple times throughout the day to "imitate" a fish being in there, along with some snails that ended up in there "somehow". I just kept doing that until my readings showed 0ppm.





hoppycalif said:


> There are still conflicting ideas about how to start a new planted aquarium, how much light to use, etc. For example, consider: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...35746-cycling-planted-aquarium-important.html
> 
> My idea about lighting is that you should try for uniform, consistent light intensity every day. To do that you need to be in control of the lighting, and you can never be in control of the sun - too many variables. So, I never put an aquarium where direct sun light can touch it, and I prefer to limit even indirect sun light. I'm not saying I am the only one who is right about this, and I know that Diana Walstad recommends sunlight for her method, but I just don't agree with her on this.
> 
> ...


Thank you all for your replies. I'm going to begin again and mineralize the soil. I'm also going to order a c a-series light for the tank. Dutch I tried to tag you in a post but I guess I don't know how to tag people so here's a link if you don't mind. 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=52554


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> Paradise fish said:
> 
> 
> > Your tank is gorgeous!!
> ...


If I'm using the method I shared in the above post does that quell your issues listed above? Also this is a plant list of the plants coming today I believe. Will you recommend any of these for this tank?
Cabomba
Parrots feather 
Subwassertang
Riccia
Rotala rotundifolia
Ludwigia repens
Aponogeton crispus
Water Sprite (huge ones)
2 needle leaf javas 
Crypt wendtii (small)
Thank you.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Ellasoma are very cool little fish, I hope you have great success with them!

Want some more opinions, LOL? I agree with Hoppy on lighting. I agree that the pea gravel is not a good idea. On filters, you don't need one in a well established Walstad tank with lots of healthy plants, but you do need water circulation. A power head or small internal filter will work. I use external filters on all my Walstad tanks, but I only put mechanical filter media in them. The filters are primarily for circulation, and the sponges or filter fiber help remove any particles from the water and keep the tanks looking good. If I have a specific problem in a tank that requires some other type of filter medium, I can quickly add that to the filter. But this almost never happens.

There is an extensive discussion of Miracle Grow in "Suitable soils for the Walstad method", a sticky thread at the beginning of this forum. MG is a very rich substrate which produces lots of ammonia and CO2 in the first few months. This is good for plants, but can cause algae problems and difficulty for fish until the substrate calms down. In a 10 gallon tank, I suggest you only use 1" of soil at the most.

Do try many different species of plants. Some will fail, many others will thrive. Walstad tanks depend on healthy plants for water purification, so keep the ones that thrive and that you like. Don't beat yourself up over the plants that fail, just pull them out.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Ellasoma are very cool little fish, I hope you have great success with them!
> 
> Want some more opinions, LOL? I agree with Hoppy on lighting. I agree that the pea gravel is not a good idea. On filters, you don't need one in a well established Walstad tank with lots of healthy plants, but you do need water circulation. A power head or small internal filter will work. I use external filters on all my Walstad tanks, but I only put mechanical filter media in them. The filters are primarily for circulation, and the sponges or filter fiber help remove any particles from the water and keep the tanks looking good. If I have a specific problem in a tank that requires some other type of filter medium, I can quickly add that to the filter. But this almost never happens.
> 
> ...


Good link and read suggestions.
I have seen miracle grow Many Many times being used in dirted tanks. Phishless or Maryland guppy, used this for his tank I believe... Not sure though. 
But I have consistently seen it done enough to say its an ok substrate. I personally, have never dirted a tank, but I know the works and the study of it.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

CricketMclean said:


> If I'm using the method I shared in the above post does that quell your issues listed above? Also this is a plant list of the plants coming today I believe. Will you recommend any of these for this tank?
> Cabomba
> Parrots feather
> Subwassertang
> ...


What kind of cabomba? cabomba is a species.
Ludwigia repens, eh...
Rotala probably not. just imo, you will want to try it though. 
Crypt wendtii will do gr8 :flame:


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Ellasoma are very cool little fish, I hope you have great success with them!
> 
> Want some more opinions, LOL? I agree with Hoppy on lighting. I agree that the pea gravel is not a good idea. On filters, you don't need one in a well established Walstad tank with lots of healthy plants, but you do need water circulation. A power head or small internal filter will work. I use external filters on all my Walstad tanks, but I only put mechanical filter media in them. The filters are primarily for circulation, and the sponges or filter fiber help remove any particles from the water and keep the tanks looking good. If I have a specific problem in a tank that requires some other type of filter medium, I can quickly add that to the filter. But this almost never happens.
> 
> ...


I am very happy to have more help Lol. I was just reading your post. I had read some before. It's why I bought the miracle grow soil in the first place but several people had written in other forums and other threads that they'd had more luck with sand and gravel because it made less mess when replanting. In the week I've had with both I would agree lol. Last night I redid it with just sand and boy is it messy. Now I'll be redoing it again tho. It sounded like you recommended using any inorganic substance (of those listed) as similar to using clay. Could I use kitty litter instead of clay? One of the bloggers I was reading about ellasoma said he used kitty litter as his substrate. What about the added iron? Is that missing from litter or is it not needed with miracle grow? Or something else? Lol. 
I try not to say why so as not to look crazy but honestly the air pumps (I have whispers) drive me crazy from the vibrations. I have tried putting them on material Styrofoam hanging them on a floating shelf. Nothing works for me. Vibrations make me crazy lol and filters seem to vibrate less. I have this info from Gerald whom I count as a trusted source on these fishes._ 1-2 years in the wild; 2-3 years in captivity, but after 2 years they rarely breed (for me). They are more fussy than killifish regarding what foods they'll eat, and they eat slowly, so it's tricky to get enough food to them if you're trying to keep them with faster-eating fish. I usually keep them alone or with other super-tiny fish and feed mainly live worms, mosquito larvae, fresh-hatched brine shrimp, Ceriodaphnia, Cyclops, etc. They'll eat some frozen foods, but do better with live foods in my experience. They almost never eat dry foods. They're wonderful little fish for patient people, but if you want responsive fish that greet you when you walk in the room, you'll find these guys pretty boring. No heater or filter required - just plants and a little stream of bubbles to move water. Water can be hard or soft; they're not picky about that._ so I would like to use a small filter to replace the stream of bubbles. I could throw some foam in it for mechanical filtration. I want to have it planted so much that when I add the fish they will be able to disappear. 
I've already got more soil soaking outside. I'll start drying out the soil I have In the tank as soon as I find a suitable place to keep the plants meanwhile. Do you think they must be planted while they wait or could they float some where? Probably not too good for the crypts. But maybe the others? Oh boy I've really stepped into it!

Btw Gerald's sunfish is the patriarch of the beautiful Gilberti in the video above


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> What kind of cabomba? cabomba is a species.
> Ludwigia repens, eh...
> Rotala probably not. just imo, you will want to try it though.
> Crypt wendtii will do gr8 :flame:


I have several tanks so if something is particularly difficult I could add it to another tank with better light and a tried substrate (namely my 55 gallon with a mix of flourite and eco complete and the satellite plus pro that's the best I have) I could put the Ludwiga and rotala in that tank. I've stolen enough from it anyway lol. As far as the camboda I'll have to show you when it arrives. I'll be working on the substrate now and hopefully I can get this done. 
Thank you!


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

I was just wondering if the live foods would add enough iron to the tank on a continuing basis. Now maybe I'm confusing the iron that is rich in blood with the iron that one makes a pipe out of lol. Am I mistaken? I obviously have no problem making myself look like a fool at this point


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Any soil substrate can be messy, but mineralizing MG will help reduce the annoying floaters. If you go slow and do a little at a time, you can rearrange an entire soil substrate tank. But if you like to redesign the whole thing every month or so, soil probably isn't the best choice.

Kitty litter is fine as long as it is pure clay with no perfume, antimicrobials, clumping agents, odor absorbents, etc. I am told that a suitable product is sold at Walmart, but I can't confirm that.

Most plants can float for weeks without damage as long as other conditions are suitable: light, temperature, and very gentle water movement if any. This includes rooted plants like cryptocoryne. I'm sure there are some delicate species that don't like this, but all the common ones will be fine.

Don't worry about the iron.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Any soil substrate can be messy, but mineralizing MG will help reduce the annoying floaters. If you go slow and do a little at a time, you can rearrange an entire soil substrate tank. But if you like to redesign the whole thing every month or so, soil probably isn't the best choice.
> 
> Kitty litter is fine as long as it is pure clay with no perfume, antimicrobials, clumping agents, odor absorbents, etc. I am told that a suitable product is sold at Walmart, but I can't confirm that.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks again!


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> There are still conflicting ideas about how to start a new planted aquarium, how much light to use, etc. For example, consider: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...35746-cycling-planted-aquarium-important.html
> 
> My idea about lighting is that you should try for uniform, consistent light intensity every day. To do that you need to be in control of the lighting, and you can never be in control of the sun - too many variables. So, I never put an aquarium where direct sun light can touch it, and I prefer to limit even indirect sun light. I'm not saying I am the only one who is right about this, and I know that Diana Walstad recommends sunlight for her method, but I just don't agree with her on this.
> 
> ...


When I originally read this I read it 13 watt led which lead me to the question did you mean 13 watts led which is equivalent to a 75 watt. But now I see I read it wrong. What are your thoughts on led lightbulbs and where would I get the original light you advised? Wal-Mart? Home depot?
Thank you for that great link. It was an enjoyable read.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Any soil substrate can be messy, but mineralizing MG will help reduce the annoying floaters. If you go slow and do a little at a time, you can rearrange an entire soil substrate tank. But if you like to redesign the whole thing every month or so, soil probably isn't the best choice.
> 
> Kitty litter is fine as long as it is pure clay with no perfume, antimicrobials, clumping agents, odor absorbents, etc. I am told that a suitable product is sold at Walmart, but I can't confirm that.
> 
> ...


I put the tank together this evening and I gotta say I really miss the gravel. I mean third layer. I have so much trouble not penetrating the sand to the dirt. When I'm suctioning water out almost every time I go to pull it out I can't help but pour a bunch of water out too fast and stir the whole thing up :/ it really stinks. I don't think I have quite a whole inch of sand but I ran out. It happens in my other tank with two layers as well and that one is fully loaded. I've tried various methods and I just can't figure out how to get the tube out without dropping the water in the tube and making a mess. I'll update with a picture in a minute. 
I ended up letting it dry out til around noon then I sifted it thru a very very fine sieve. I think it's pretty well done. Added 50% kitty litter


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Actually for a just-assembled tank, it looks good. A trick to filling the tank is to put a towel down covering almost the whole bottom, then slowly pour the water over that. Towels work better than newspaper or a saucer because water can flow through a towel slowly instead of running over the edge and eroding a hole in the substrate at that point.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Actually for a just-assembled tank, it looks good. A trick to filling the tank is to put a towel down covering almost the whole bottom, then slowly pour the water over that. Towels work better than newspaper or a saucer because water can flow through a towel slowly instead of running over the edge and eroding a hole in the substrate at that point.


I had used newspaper and a bowl. I'll try a towel next time thanks. But I usually run into trouble when I'm draining it. I think I just have to be satisfied with only draining it half way each time so I can lay the tube down and pointthe open end up before I take it out. I can't figure anything else out. Does it look like the fishies will be happy? I'm wondering if that little filter will be able to move the water enough. That one is from a betta tank.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I always just used my hand.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> I always just used my hand.


I do that too sometimes 

Is there a trick to separating the substrates? In this case the soil and the sand? I'm having a heck of a time "re"doing the tanks because the sand just doesn't want to be separated from the soil :/


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Don't move things around a lot. *key*


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> Don't move things around a lot. *key*


 alright. I thought your name was Dutch not alec. In the event you must?


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> Don't move things around a lot. *key*


Since you're feeling helpful how bout identifying the species


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

cabomba purple maybe/


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

In the event you must move a plant, pull it slowly and gently from the substrate. You do not need to get the entire root system. As soon as you see an inch or inch and a half of roots above the surface of the substrate, cut at the surface and leave the remaining root system in place. It will decay over time.

The short roots on the relocated plant are usually enough to anchor it, and will regrow quickly if the plant is healthy.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Looks like the tank's coming along great!



> When I'm suctioning water out almost every time I go to pull it out I can't help but pour a bunch of water out too fast and stir the whole thing up :/ it really stinks. I don't think I have quite a whole inch of sand but I ran out. It happens in my other tank with two layers as well and that one is fully loaded. I've tried various methods and I just can't figure out how to get the tube out without dropping the water in the tube and making a mess


You shouldn't need to siphon water out of a tank like this much. As long as you aren't heavily stocking or keeping anything exceptionally messy decomposition should do its thing and feed the plants, and the plants should keep your parameters in line.

If you need to siphon though, have a cup handy, bring the siphon end close to the surface, and position the cup next to it so that when you pull the siphon out you can move the cup underneath it in time to catch the water.

For lighting on a 10gal I've always used something like this:









Simple and cheap. They usually come with the 10gal kits that you'd buy at Walmart, so you may be able to find someone selling a 10gal on craigslist (then you have a quarantine and spare filter/heater in case of emergencies, too!). Just make sure it take two incandescent bulbs. The kits usually come with a HOB style filter as well, great solution to water circulation, and if you pull the filtration media out you can stick some pothos in it for additional plant biomass.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I have had in my early days the exact hood you posted above.
1: gets hot
2: melts the plastic covering around the yellow fluorescent bulb
3: unattractive
4: hard to perform maintenance with it on
5: waste of energy
6: hard to fit filters, heaters, etc. in it. 

Also idk what the problem or issue is with the WC thing you have here. i have been doing water changes every week or even more so, for years, I have never had the issues you experience now. When you siphon out the water say into a 5 gallon bucket, and you have the extra water in the tube, lift the opposite end of the tubing UP (the end in the bucket) and pour it back into your tank. It wont cause any "horrible damage" and as always during maintenance there will be water... Not a abnormal thing imo.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

I've never used that brand, but posted it only as an example. The brand I have came with a Tetra starter kit. Can't speak for all of them, but that one's lasted me 6 years now (does get a bit warm on top though).

I think the problem he's having with the siphon is that when you break the siphon the water that's stuck in the wider vacuum tube rushes back into the tank when you lift the tube out of the water. If you've drained the water low enough, or have a short enough tank, the water coming back can 'blast' the substrate.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Skizhx said:


> the water coming back can 'blast' the substrate.


Even in a five gallon or a pico you shouldn't have lowered it this much in the first place  
75% water changes are the MAX imo unless you don't have inhabitants other than plants. Basic biotic factors. 
The blast from any tubing weather its 3/4" or 1/2" tubing isn't powerful enough with a 50% wc for example to blast your substrate and stir up dirt everywhere. I do a WC on my 65 (usually 90% no kidding since I am having a green water issue due to lighting) and when it comes back up and out into the tank for about 2 milliseconds, that small blast doesn't do anything. 
Your tubing should be long enough to sit by itself in the five gallon bucket(ex.). If it isn't you need to fix that issue with longer tubing, again size doesn't matter. The blast doesn't matter because you should have the end of the house in the bucket, one hand holding the hose, and one hand under the hose when you break the siphon.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Agreed, generally no reason to lower it that much, especially in a dirted tank full of plants like this.

If for whatever reason you do drain it though, you can lift the siphon and slip a cup underneath in time to catch the backflow before enough comes out to make a mess.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Skizhx said:


> Looks like the tank's coming along great!
> 
> You shouldn't need to siphon water out of a tank like this much. As long as you aren't heavily stocking or keeping anything exceptionally messy decomposition should do its thing and feed the plants, and the plants should keep your parameters in line.
> 
> If you need to siphon though, have a cup handy, bring the siphon end close to the surface, and position the cup next to it so that when you pull the siphon out you can move the cup underneath it in time to catch the water.


Thank you. 
how often and how much do you typically have to do water changes for a very planted tank?



Skizhx said:


> I think the problem he's having with the siphon is that when you break the siphon the water that's stuck in the wider vacuum tube rushes back into the tank when you lift the tube out of the water. If you've drained the water low enough, or have a short enough tank, the water coming back can 'blast' the substrate.


that is correct. That's the problem. And I (she) was taking out a large amount of water because I had just filled it and and was doing several water changes to clear the water. No fish. But In my case each one just made it worse. I actually tried the cup but it ended up uprooting a plant too. Perhaps if I used a shorter tube. The vac part. I am typically using my python because I am usually doing multiple changes for all my tanks but I gave that up right away. Even my little cheap one does it. I think the cup would work in a less densely planted tank or with a shorter tube. For now I am just sticking to 50% even if it doesn't quite do the job.

I have ordered my fish and they should arrive Friday! I'm very excited and nervous! I have white worms on the way as well as banana worms. Hopefully they will transition well to frozen foods tho. Thanks for replying


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> In the event you must move a plant, pull it slowly and gently from the substrate. You do not need to get the entire root system. As soon as you see an inch or inch and a half of roots above the surface of the substrate, cut at the surface and leave the remaining root system in place. It will decay over time.
> 
> The short roots on the relocated plant are usually enough to anchor it, and will regrow quickly if the plant is healthy.


Thank you Michael. I will try that next time I need to move a plant. I'd really like some moss. Otherwise I'm feeling pretty good about it. I'll take pics in the morning. Good night y'all.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

> how often and how much do you typically have to do water changes for a very planted tank?


If you keep a light bioload in a tank that's densely planted and you have established plants with good growth rates it's possible to keep a healthy and stable tank without doing water changes, just refill the water as it evaporates.

Watch your nitrates to get a sense of what the tank needs. Changing smaller amounts of the water regularly is generally preferable to changing a lot of the water all at once. Find what fits your schedule/time commitment and test once in awhile to check that it's working out. ~10% per week would be a reasonable point of reference, but not necessarily a requirement.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Skizhx said:


> > how often and how much do you typically have to do water changes for a very planted tank?
> 
> 
> If you keep a light bioload in a tank that's densely planted and you have established plants with good growth rates it's possible to keep a healthy and stable tank without doing water changes, just refill the water as it evaporates.
> ...


Great. Thank you! 
Because my phone camera seems to have quit focusing from any distance here is the tank in segments. Advice welcome.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Just to check up;
your tank has cycled?


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> Just to check up;
> your tank has cycled?


 no. Well yes. I Insta cycled it. Used a sponge from the intake and bio media out of my 120g. I bought a new hob filter for this little tank and put my old media in it.

Does it look like the floaters need more nitrates?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

No,
but it looks like you do have some deficiency's... potassium?... off the top of my head.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> No,
> but it looks like you do have some deficiency's... potassium?... off the top of my head.


 this is the tank I started before I found a good source of potassium. That makes sense. Is it something I could put in a gel cap and shove in the soil like a root tab? Or better to add to the water?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

I suggest you use NilocG thrive+ 
Just MO.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The tank is new with rich soil substrate! You don't need to worry about deficiencies for at least 6 months. Any deficiencies the plants show now, they had when you got them and will be corrected as soon as they get those roots into the soil.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> The tank is new with rich soil substrate! You don't need to worry about deficiencies for at least 6 months. Any deficiencies the plants show now, they had when you got them and will be corrected as soon as they get those roots into the soil.


This is pretty much true.
Didn't even think about the dirted part :-\" 
Thrive+ also has a low light recommended dosing system. If you do continue to have issues with this, then I recommend that. But as said previously, you should be good 2 go for sometime... some soils lack specific nutrients though, I doubt this will happen to you however.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

With all the dialogue back and forth, my head is absolutely spinning. 

In my humble opinion, it looks like we have a decent setup, the tank is doing fine, and the owner is on top of the situation. I would relax and let nature run its course. Not every plant is going to thrive. What you look for at this stage is good OVERALL plant growth, clear water, and no algae. That seems to be the case for now. If problems arise, then they can be dealt with in a timely fashion....


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Agreed!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> With all the dialogue back and forth, my head is absolutely spinning.
> 
> In my humble opinion, it looks like we have a decent setup, the tank is doing fine, and the owner is on top of the situation. I would relax and let nature run its course. Not every plant is going to thrive. What you look for at this stage is good OVERALL plant growth, clear water, and no algae. That seems to be the case for now. If problems arise, then they can be dealt with in a timely fashion....


I agree,
you wouldn't like my tanks though then, LOL I have High Tech, must have thriving plants no matter what kind of tank. Its of course a Dutch.  
But that's how I do things, all plants must have no deficiency's, and must be in tip top shape. (well also this the point of a dutch anyway but...) I'm OCD about that...


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> The tank is new with rich soil substrate! You don't need to worry about deficiencies for at least 6 months. Any deficiencies the plants show now, they had when you got them and will be corrected as soon as they get those roots into the soil.


 that's true. I didn't think about that. 


DutchMuch said:


> This is pretty much true.
> Didn't even think about the dirted part :-\"
> Thrive+ also has a low light recommended dosing system. If you do continue to have issues with this, then I recommend that. But as said previously, you should be good 2 go for sometime... some soils lack specific nutrients though, I doubt this will happen to you however.


 I'll keep this in mind for other tanks too


dwalstad said:


> With all the dialogue back and forth, my head is absolutely spinning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 sounds good! All the dialogue is a symptom of a nervous Nelly :/ Thank you for the perspective <3 I'm very excited about this tank and these fish. Now I want to convert all of my tanks to dirt 

The help is much appreciated!


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

The fish have arrived! I acclimated to room temperature in the box and then did the drop and plop. They sat frozen til I pulled the net and then they disappeared lol. I put a blanket over the tank for a couple hours and left the house. Came home and just used one light. I added some black worms and oila!


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Just for future reference, you acclimate the fish to the temperature of the tank water, not the room 

Preferably, tie a knot in your siphon hose to let tank water drip slowly into the bags to acclimate them to the water parameters as well.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

skizhx said:


> just for future reference, you acclimate the fish to the temperature of the tank water, not the room
> 
> preferably, tie a knot in your siphon hose to let tank water drip slowly into the bags to acclimate them to the water parameters as well.


+1


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Skizhx said:


> Just for future reference, you acclimate the fish to the temperature of the tank water, not the room
> 
> 
> 
> ...





DutchMuch said:


> skizhx said:
> 
> 
> > just for future reference, you acclimate the fish to the temperature of the tank water, not the room
> ...


Actually when shipping to Phoenix Arizona at least it's recommended to first open the box and allow them to acclimate to room temperature and then float them in the tank. I think this is true in very cold regions too


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Maybe I'm missing something there... I don't get it.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> Maybe I'm missing something there... I don't get it.


This is from Jonah's aquarium
Start with this procedure to acclimate your new fishes. bring the box indoors and open the cardboard Carton and the styrofoam box so that room air can enter. do not open the fish bags these contain oxygen and will keep your fish supplied until they are ready for tank acclimation. allow the boxes to stand open for an hour or more until the water in the bags is about room temperature then proceed with the acclimation instructions below. keep the bags closed to retain the oxygen for the fish. use a thermometer Or your hands to determine if there is a large difference between the temperature of the water in the bags and that of the tank where your fishes will be stocked. measure the temperature in the bags by placing a thermometer under the bag for a few minutes. again do not open the bags. record the temperature difference between the bags and the tank or remember whether it felt like a large difference. float the bags in the tank or in the container with water of the same temperature as that in the tank. check the temperature difference periodically until it is less than 2 degrees Fahrenheit difference between the tank and the bags. at that point the bags can be opened one at a time and the fish is released into the tank.

As far as drip acclimating I subscribe to this line of thought tho I do acknowledge that people seem to be divided.

Copied and pasted from here https://www.fishlore...ed-fish.114599/
This is what I do with Discus. And your fish are being 2 day shipped? I'd definitely do this. Many call it drop and plop. Float to get temp, then get the fish in the new water as soon as you open the bag. They aren't going to instantly die once the open bag is exposed to new air...but the theory is definitely true. CO2 and Ammonia build up in the bag at a low pH (pH will drop some in the bag), and once the CO2 off gasses and the pH rises (you putting in higher pH water by dripping it) the ammonia will become more and more toxic and cause burns.

Dripping after 2 days in a bag would be a very bad idea IMO. Even after fasting, 2 days the water will equate to sewer water. Adding your water to bag water will cause ammonia burns and raise toxicity because your pH is higher then the bag pH. The only times you should be drip acclimating is if you get fish from the LFS (very short bag trip) or if your tank pH is lower then the bag pH. Definitely drop and plop. Float for temperature (short time also because this still will cause ammonia to become toxic with a temp increase) and then plop them in the tank. I've done this with DOZENS of discus, both wild and domestic, as well as geos, festivums, and wild angels. I will never drip acclimate unless my tank pH is lower then the bag.

It honestly scares me how many people are recommending drip acclimation after such a long trip. Ammonia is much less toxic at a low pH, so adding your water and raising the pH should be common sense that the ammonia will become even more toxic as the pH rises and the temp rises.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Because I'm a nerd I made a little video. I really love these fishes.






If you keep an eye on the substrate you can see the occasional blackworm tail straight up in the water


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Just a FYI fishlore isn't a "good" website to get information from.
This of course is my personal experience and opinion.

Here is my thing, that article is completely time consuming and pointless.
If you acclimate your bag of fish to the air, all your doing is stressing them out more because you then must acclimate them to your tanks temperature, you can do this floating or by the drip method. Drip method Is better as it prepares the bagged fish for your tanks parameters. You should QT though anyways. 
QT is a whole different ball game however.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Also nice vid.


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

DutchMuch said:


> Just a FYI fishlore isn't a "good" website to get information from.
> This of course is my personal experience and opinion.
> 
> Here is my thing, that article is completely time consuming and pointless.
> ...


To be honest I totally agreed with you until I heard about the ph/ammonia/co2 thing from the king of diy when he got his red rainbows in for his "planted" tank  So I started researching and found that info above on fishLore. You definitely are hit and miss there. But I very much trust nanfa so I checked with them.

http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/17220-water-movement-in-a-10g-for-okefenokee/page-2
"That is exactly exactly correct. Yes to the quick acclimation. shipped for 2 days, that's exactly correct about the CO2/Ammonia. It's how we do it here at the Aquarium too if we get fish shipped in. We acclimate to temp by floating the bag for a few minutes, then just throw the fish in. Never a drip acclimation after being shipped. It may stress the fish a little more, but it's far less toxic assuming your tank water is good. I agree with everything above. I'd never drip or slow acclimate unless it was something that I or someone else brought to me over a very short amount of time.

I like your pump/filter/sponge set up and think it will work
I totally agree with you (and of course Stephen) about getting fish in a good clean cycled aquarium as soon as possible. If I am ever trapped in a bag fill of smoke and CO2 and about to choke and pass out, please do not introduce the clean air slowly... drag me outside immediately). And Elassoma are tough little fish actually... they will fall to the bottom and sulk for a while and then they will hide in the bushes and you will think they are all gone for a few days... and then they will figure out you are the one that brings the shrimp and worms and such and you will see them."

One of the respondents is even on their board so I decided to go with drop and plop. Even tho I do think there are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.

Here are two boys and a girl. I can't believe how great they are coloring up so quickly. I have read that they color up when they hunt as well so maybe the black worms are really helping. I am in love with these fish. And they are so tiny. The pictures don't do that justice. Also I love that piece of petrified wood in the first pic


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Whatever acclimation method you used, it worked! That male is showing excellent color for a fish fresh out of the shipping bag and in a new tank. And the black worms should give the fish hours of entertainment.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Reason for the don't do a drip acc. if their shipped, is because all the gases build up inside their bag, and then once you open it, it causes ammonia to just build up in seconds. Stressing out the fish completely. This is why you take slow steps. 
I still highly disagree in some ways, a lot of ways, but if its your method, its your method.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

and again I forgot to add,
fish looks gr8, if it has babies hook me up I cant find it anywhere.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Those are some awesome looking fish!


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Whatever acclimation method you used, it worked! That male is showing excellent color for a fish fresh out of the shipping bag and in a new tank. And the black worms should give the fish hours of entertainment.


 thank you <3 I must say I am totally in love with them!


DutchMuch said:


> and again I forgot to add,
> fish looks gr8, if it has babies hook me up I cant find it anywhere.


 I had the same problem. I emailed Jonah's aquarium because they were not listed on their available fish list. Mark replied saying he had several varieties. So maybe an email will do it for you too. However I will keep you posted on fry










Skizhx said:


> Those are some awesome looking fish!


 thank you so much! I'm mad about them. Their mating dance is just beautiful. It looks a lot like the way they fight over territory to me tho too lol. Here is a picture of a BIG fight they got into (staring contest). I don't think they have agreed yet on who gets to dance over this stage. They did a lot of damage to each, sadly (HUGE hits to the ego!) :') I believe they each think they are the dominant male, both in full color


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Skizhx said:


> Those are some awesome looking fish!


Check out what's happening lately!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Testosterone storm! I'm surprised there were no split fins. What do the females think of this?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

CricketMclean said:


> Check out what's happening lately!


Nice video and very cute fish!


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Michael said:


> Testosterone storm! I'm surprised there were no split fins. What do the females think of this?


I think they were happy the attention was elsewhere lol 


dwalstad said:


> CricketMclean said:
> 
> 
> > Check out what's happening lately!
> ...


Thank you very much. I love them!


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## CricketMclean (Sep 12, 2017)

Here's a little video progress report






And here's one on the fry






Hope all is well!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

nice!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Congratulations!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

OMG I FORGOT, when the fry gets a bit older ill pay you some $$$ if you want to ship me a couple.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

update?


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