# Starting my first El Natural tank and have some questions.



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

So I am going to start my first El Natural tank within a few months arty: But I have a few questions before I can really do anything. 

Right know this is my plan: 

Tank size: 75 gallons
Substrate: Miracle gro organic choice potting mix, sand as cap
Lighting: T5 HO, one AquaBlue 54 watt bulb, one Sun Blaster 54 watt bulb
Filtration: ?
Water movement: ?
Plants: have not got that far 
Fish: 4(?) angels, 6 turquise rainbows, 6 banded rainbows, 1 German blue ram, 1 albino bristlenose pleco*, some species of corie cat or loach* 

* unsure on these fish

Know for the questions, 

1) I know people with soil tanks will just dump the soil in the tank, or soak it a few times and scoop out the floaties, or mineralize it. I was going to mineralize the soil, but my mom wants me to just soak is because it's easier. Does soaking the soil have deferent lasting affects of the tank than mineralizing would? If in the end it's pretty much the same then I think I am just going to soak the soil. Also I have heard of people mixing inorganic soil with miracle gro to keep the ammonia and other stuff in the soil so the plants can eat it, but it be safe for the fish. It also seems that mixing miracle gro with inorganic substrate makes the soil less likely to become anorobic. Is it necisacry to have inorganic soil mixed with miracle gro? 

2) Should I have a filter? I know in El Natural tanks people don't have filters because the plants do all the work. In some ways even a HOB filter would give me more peace of mind (I have never had a tank without a filter). 

3) Is my stocking fine even if I get the fish I am unsure about? I know turquise rainbows like cooler water, but I have the tank they are currently in at 77-78*F. I am unsure if I may keep my ram anyway as I am afraid that the angels will stress him out if they pair. 

4) How many watts per gallon would I have with my lighting? Also would 2 Sun Blaster bulbs be to much light? I was thinking of switching the AquaBlue bulb with a Sun Blaster bulb when it burns out. AquaBulbs just show fish and plant color more anyway. 

Sorry for my way long post, but I have a lot of questions and want to do this right. Thanks for reading!


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

1) In the end, it will be the same if you mineralize or soak your MGOC. Mineralizing just gets you there faster. Mixing the soaked or mineralized MGOC with another substrate can help. The term "inorganic soil" can mean many different things. Sand would be an inorganic soil, but it would not help. Clay is an inorganic soil that has high CEC and would help, but can be messy.

The best kind of substrate to mix with is one that has no nutrients but does have high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Examples are plain clay cat litter with NO additives (available at Walmart), Safe-T-Sorb (available at Tractor Supply), Turface (hard to find in small quantities), and Flourite (expensive). All of these are forms of clay which are in larger, harder particles and are less messy.

I mix mineralized soil half and half with Safe-T-Sorb with very good results.

2) Yes. It provides necessary water circulation, and gives you the safety of extra biofiltration if something goes wrong. You can also use the filter to remove any particles from disturbed soil, and as a place to put water conditioners if you need any (rare, but it does happen).

3) Probably. If the angels pair up, they may stress all the other fish depending on the disposition of the individual fish.

4) Forget "watts per gallon"--it is an outdated way to measure light. In general, two T5 HO tubes will give you plenty of light. I am not familiar with the particular types of tubes you are using, so it might be good to ask about those in a separate thread in the lighting forum.


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Thank you so much michael! 

I have thought about replacing the Angelfish with something else, but I don't really know what that something else that would be. If the angels don't pair, would they still live peacefully with each other? My current angel is a pill, he chases everybody in the tank when he wants space or food. He might be better if he had more angelfish around though, he kind of acts lonely sometimes. 

Would a simple HOB filter work for this method? I know canisters are best, but they are expensive. 

I kind of wondered if the whole "watts per gallon" was outdated, was not completely sure though. I am not familiar with the tubes I am using eaither lol! I just got the light from a guy on Craigslist. The lights only say how many watts per light I have, I don't even know if the bulbs are 6,700k or 10,000k. 

Again, thanks for your help!


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Bump


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Bump


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

HOB filters are fine. Bigger is always better, because there is more room for filter media. You could use two HOB filters, or a filter and a power head, to get the desired flow of water. Read Niko's excellent thread http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/filtration/88242-how-setup-proper-water-flow.html

Angelfish are mild-mannered for cichlids, but they are still cichlids and it is difficult to predict how aggressive they may become.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Shrimplett said:


> Should I have a filter? I know in El Natural tanks people don't have filters because the plants do all the work. In some ways even a HOB filter would give me more peace of mind (I have never had a tank without a filter).


I am glad I saw your letter! All of my tanks have some means of water circulation. I use an air stone with gentle bubbling in the small 2-5 gal tanks. Larger tanks (50-55 gal) all have internal filters.

I would not have a large tank like a 75 gal without a filter or at least a water pump to circulate water. Moderate water movement brings nutrients to plants and keeps the water safely oxygenated. For years, I leaned towards less water movement to prevent CO2 loss. However, oxygenated water speeds up the bacterial metabolism that *produces* CO2 in an NPT. Therefore, water movement may actually increase CO2 production. How about that!

Water circulation is especially important in a newly set up tank. Otherwise, you have a huge mass of fresh organic matter (the soil underlayer) consuming all oxygen in the water. (Plants have not started growing and oxygenating the water.) This scenario threatens not only fish but plants. The new soil becomes so anaerobic that it may kill plant roots.

While I have always emphasized plants as water purifiers and advised against excessive filtration, gentle water movement is a good thing. For a large 75 gal containing an organic soil layer like Miracle Gro, I would consider it essential.

Attached is picture on the day I set up my 50 gal back in 2008. It shows the internal filter I used to circulate water. This tank in 2013 is going strong. (I posted recent picture of it on my Facebook page.)


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Thank you so much guys! One more question, how clear does the water have to be when your soaking the soil? It has cleared up a little, but it's still not anything close to crystal clear. 

@ Michael
Ya, I like angels a lot, but if they all turn out to be like mine then I don't know how much I would want angels.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

Mine only started clearing some after the first couple of dry cycles. But if you leave it for at least 2 days it will settle better. I think it's no harm removing the particles that float easily and don't settle fast as they'll do the same once you disturb the soil in the tank. I poured all that out when mineralizing my soil when soaking it. The problem is I ended up with half the soil amount I started with.

And as Diana says, circulation all around the tank is a good thing.


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Ok, so can you ever do to much soaking and draining? The water will never run clear and the dirt smells like chicken poop. Is that bad or is the dirt fine? I can't put it in the tank yet, so that's why I have just been soaking and draining forever. I am not wasting the nutrients in the dirt am I?


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Bump


----------



## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

when you re-fill it are you kicking up a lot of the dirt? I'd think that would cause the water to be more cloudy, and you've probably taken out a lot of the light material already


----------



## Karl M (Jul 15, 2013)

Bump


----------



## Shrimplett (Mar 21, 2013)

Man I have not been on the forum for a while.

Ya, I stir up the dirt when I change the water in the buckets. I have not changed the water for the dirt in a while though, so I hope I am not turning my dirt into toxic mud. I just thought I would get my tank setup a lot faster than I am, or else I would have waited on the dirt.


----------

