# [Wet Thumb Forum]-bunch of questions regarding reverse flow undergravel, CO2, and subtrate



## irie_eyes (Jul 12, 2003)

noobie here.
I am starting up an aquarium.
I saw a nice setup at the pet store.
It had a really nice plant setup, which was growing very well and established. No bubbler or filter. There was a single bubble thing (a bubble counter I found out later) but overall was very quiet and nice looking so I wanted to go with a setup like this, opposed to my friends oscar/cichlid carnivorous "Gladiator" setup. Plus they were getting irrate with me wanted to alter the tank's interior.

I found this site and I got lots of questions.
I had a undergravel filter setup before and didn't like it. I preferred if the water flowed from up under the gravel.
I read that undergravel filters don't work well with plants in substrates because oxygen-rich water flowing past the roots and promoting aerobic bacteria colonies.
I am not going to go with a bubbler or a power filter, so there will be no surface turbulence or oxygenation (actually I want a quiet setup also)
So if water is flowing upward, is that fine?

I may use vermiculite/perlite mix below the gravel. I read that a very slow flow of water through the substrate also helps replenish it. I was considering using my reverse-flow also as a distributor for stuff like medicine, trace elements, plant nutrient yada yada. 
Is this a good idea to use the reverse flow to replenish the substrate/feed the plants?
I was also considering some loose vermuculite under the filter. Not a good idea? Does the roots have to be in contact with the vermucilite or can broken down vermucilite help?

I was also considering DIY pressurized CO2 injection via a bubbleing stone in the reverse-flow, so CO2 comes up from under the gravel. Good or not good for the roots/substrate.

I'm pretty good with the whole "Feng Shui" thing, even before I knew there was such a thing, so the "Amano-style" aquarium setups interested me. It was just I never found the right piece of driftwood until today.
I probably plan on breaking the tank in and avoid the "new-tank" thing and was planning on just growing the plants for 2 months before introducing fish. I also know where to get wild grass shrimp for algae control.
I am in no rush. Put it this way, I'm trying to rearrange my room just right to accomodate the aquarium, and I only got the driftwood because I was afraid it was going to get sold.
Will probably get a 30G tank.
Thanks


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## irie_eyes (Jul 12, 2003)

noobie here.
I am starting up an aquarium.
I saw a nice setup at the pet store.
It had a really nice plant setup, which was growing very well and established. No bubbler or filter. There was a single bubble thing (a bubble counter I found out later) but overall was very quiet and nice looking so I wanted to go with a setup like this, opposed to my friends oscar/cichlid carnivorous "Gladiator" setup. Plus they were getting irrate with me wanted to alter the tank's interior.

I found this site and I got lots of questions.
I had a undergravel filter setup before and didn't like it. I preferred if the water flowed from up under the gravel.
I read that undergravel filters don't work well with plants in substrates because oxygen-rich water flowing past the roots and promoting aerobic bacteria colonies.
I am not going to go with a bubbler or a power filter, so there will be no surface turbulence or oxygenation (actually I want a quiet setup also)
So if water is flowing upward, is that fine?

I may use vermiculite/perlite mix below the gravel. I read that a very slow flow of water through the substrate also helps replenish it. I was considering using my reverse-flow also as a distributor for stuff like medicine, trace elements, plant nutrient yada yada. 
Is this a good idea to use the reverse flow to replenish the substrate/feed the plants?
I was also considering some loose vermuculite under the filter. Not a good idea? Does the roots have to be in contact with the vermucilite or can broken down vermucilite help?

I was also considering DIY pressurized CO2 injection via a bubbleing stone in the reverse-flow, so CO2 comes up from under the gravel. Good or not good for the roots/substrate.

I'm pretty good with the whole "Feng Shui" thing, even before I knew there was such a thing, so the "Amano-style" aquarium setups interested me. It was just I never found the right piece of driftwood until today.
I probably plan on breaking the tank in and avoid the "new-tank" thing and was planning on just growing the plants for 2 months before introducing fish. I also know where to get wild grass shrimp for algae control.
I am in no rush. Put it this way, I'm trying to rearrange my room just right to accomodate the aquarium, and I only got the driftwood because I was afraid it was going to get sold.
Will probably get a 30G tank.
Thanks


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Most plant people avoid any type of under gravel filter. One of the biggest reasons is that we use much deeper layers of substrate than fish only people do. If you want quiet then get a small cannister filter. They are very quiet. Since you are going to be sitting the tank up from scratch and not working with an existing tank you have a lot more options here. Also with the cannister filter you have less clutter in the tank. No power head, no lift tubes.

For substrate it's really hard to be Flourite or Onyx sand. These can be mixed 50/50 (by depth) with fine gravel to extend them and cut the cost. I prefer to avoid any vermiculite or perlite as they tend to really mess up the tank when you are moving plants around. Also they take hours of work when you start setting up the tank.

Know that DIY CO2 will work on a 30 gallon tank but it's not the easiest thing in the world to accomplish. An efficient reactor will help accomplish it. That's another good reason for a small cannister filter. You can plumb the reactor in-line with the return hose.

The most important items in a planted tank are:

1: Lighting; 2 watts per gallon as a minimum. At 2 WPG you really don't need CO2.

2: Substrate; Do the substrate right from the start as it's hell to change later.

You might want to go to this thread http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=6606090712&m=4006016463&r=4626032073#4626032073 and scroll down to the bottom and read about the silent cycle.

A 30 breeder is a very nice tank. The other 30 gallon tank is hard to aquascape due to the narrow width.

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## irie_eyes (Jul 12, 2003)

Thanks for the tips.
I'll do some more searches on the forum and review my options.


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## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

I recently pulled out my RFUGF (reverse flow under gravel filter) and am glad I did. When I was running low-light it did just fine with regular gravel. Now that I am running a more moderate light setup I am glad I switched to a cannister. You COULD use a RFUGF, but it wouldn't be optimal. And for me it would have been much cheaper to just start out with a cannister, but I didn't know I was going to develop such a wet thumb addiction, lol.

As far as replenishing the substrate, you would never be able to get a slow enough flow. When people speak of water flowing through the substrate to do this they are talking about substrate heating coils. The rate of flow is incredibly low. And it has to be like that for the CEC of the material to come into play. Otherwise there isn't enough dwell time for nutrients to be adsorbed. Volumes have been written about the subject, and I know very little so I will just say that if you wish to read more then you could research it on here. I just know what I have read or been told.

I would also likely to strongly reinforce what Rex said about starting out with the correct substrate. I recently switched from plain gravel to Onyx Sand and it isn't something I would care to repeat. I am absolutely sure that from now on I will be putting in flourite or Onyx Sand to start with from now on. It is a real bear to change. It took me several hours, lots of sweat and a sore back before it was all over with. DON'T SKIMP HERE!!!!!! No one can overemphasize this.

When you mention DIY pressurized CO2 injection it is kind of confusing. Do you mean yeast reactor or putting together your own pressurized system with a bottle, regulator and such?

Any other ?'s feel free to ask.









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15XH, 36W PC, XP-1, Onyx Sand, DIY CO2

Crypts ciliata and wendtii bronze and red, "sunset" hygro, green hygro, pennywort, wisteria and java fern and moss.


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Across the industry people are getting away from the undergravel fitlers. THe price of canisters have fallen dramatically and are really reliable.

Start with a good substrate. Especially in smaller tanks where it is not as substantial a cost got with a high grade substrate.

P.S> show your friends the latest TFH. It has a large set or articles on making planted cichlid tanks.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## irie_eyes (Jul 12, 2003)

The first hand experience with RFUGF helped a lot.
I'll look into cannisters on the web and search these forums.
I checked out some shops and they carry flourite and the other stuff.
Flourite was about $1.50-2.00 a pound.
The tank i'm getting is a 20 gallon 20H. I prefer a tall tank and my driftwood will work well with it and my planned aquascaping. It's a pretty huge piece of driftwood. Want to cover it with nana, so it will take a while.
I went to Borders and flipped through the Amano books and a number of aquarium and plant books.
Need to learn the names of the plants and types. Will probably do more research on preferred enviroment.
DIY CO2 I will put together myself with a tank/regulator. I have other uses for it later.

Oh yea, my friends cichlid tank is just filled with big rocks to the top. I guess it qualifies for an all rock setup. 
It's more for entertainment rather than aesthetics.


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## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

Since you are in Hawaii the shipping may be prohibitively expensive but you should check on mail ordering flourite. I just ordered Onyx Sand and after shipping was paid it was almost $10 per bag cheaper than at the LFS.

Don't bother with preferred environment. Plants will grow under most any conditions with a few exceptions. There were books wrote in the past that said that certain plants would only grown in soft water when it is not true. If your fish live in your water, it will more than likely grow any plants you wish to try.

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15XH, 36W PC, XP-1, Onyx Sand, DIY CO2

Crypts ciliata and wendtii bronze and red, "sunset" hygro, green hygro, pennywort, wisteria and java fern and moss.


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## irie_eyes (Jul 12, 2003)

Thanks for the plant tip.
I'm somewhat limited in my plant selection also, but I can work with it.
Mail order is a bit tough because I am living single and all my stuff through the mail goes to work. If I really want a plant or fish then I might go mail-order.
Actually, the shop I went to the fluorite was in a box and you scoop what you need. I can probably have them order it for me.

I read more information that if the fish load is high, an undergravel helps. My fish load will be greater than my plant load. The 20G/20H has a small bottom.

Can I use a 1:3 Flourite/gravel or is layers better?
I'm not planning to use a lot of rooted plants, but that "could" change.

[This message was edited by irie_eyes on Sun July 13 2003 at 09:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by irie_eyes on Mon July 14 2003 at 03:28 AM.]


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

You can go with 50/50 on the Flourite based on depth.

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