# Soil swelling ... ugh



## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Well I'm a bit perturbed at the moment. I was adding some pygmy chainsword to one of my walstad method tanks, and as I put the roots through the gravel, I noticed something completely weird. Never happened to me before.

My soil appears to have swelled and begun to float, pushing the gravel cap to the sides as it does. It looks like I have several mini-volcanos in my tank 

I keep MTS in the tank, although the population hasn't grown much, but there are at least 6-10 snails in there aerating the soil, and it's only a 20gL. No weird smells (my first thought was OMG it's gone anaerobic... and way faster than it should ever do that) and the fish are unbothered, though several nasty bubbles floated up while I was planting. The soil is MiracleGro organic potting soil, which I've used in several tanks, and never had a single issue. In fact this soil is from the same bag that I used for the other tanks.

I originally had an issue during initial setup where my entire soil layer floated due to having dried a bit, and not having a heavy enough cap on it. I left it with a few inches of water (nothing had actually broken through the cap, the whole thing was floating in the middle of the tank) overnight and bought some more gravel the next day, added to the cap, and all was fine. I have no idea if that's related, but thought it was worth mentioning. The tank is just under a month old at this point.

Do I need to be concerned? As I said, the fish show no signs of stress thus far and are happily munching on dirt particles that floated through the substrate. I can remove them temporarily and try to fix this further (I added a few handfuls of gravel on the worst spots already) if I have to, but I'd rather not. Some of them are babies and all are incredibly hard to catch. But if it's something awful, I suppose it's better to know now.

TLDR Version: I have swollen, floaty spots in my miracle gro organic soil. No weird sulfur smell and the fish aren't stressed. Possibly, my MTS stirred up the substrate too much and made air bubbles beneath it. Advice?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I think what you are seeing is the reason many people prefer to soak this soil before putting it in a tank. It takes a long time to wet it and there are lots of stray bits that float. 

Other than that I would think it should be fine.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Agreed.


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Air pockets! 

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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

try swirling a stick in the dirt so it gets soaked.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Could it also be built up CO2?


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

The soil soaked overnight before I finished capping it. I can't swirl anything in it, it's in a tank full of fish with a 3/4 inch cap on (most of) it.

I suppose it could be built up cO2. Although I've never experienced that in the other tanks where I've used the soil. 

This is just too weird :/ Oh well, fish still showing absolutely no signs of stress, so I'm just going to leave it for now and possibly add gravel as needed.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't think this issue will ever happen if you place the soil at the bottom and covered by sand on the top layer. I suppose you are using soil alone. In el natural, I will never use soil on its own as it will be very messy. This could be a quick solution for you. Hope it helps.

Yes, I soak my soil overnight as well in order to separate the floating particles followed by rinsing and more soaking. Sometimes it will last for weeks. The shortest period was about 1 week for me.


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

No, as I mentioned, there's a gravel cap. 

It's calmed down a bit, though still getting mini volcanoes. Whatever, it doesn't bug the fish and I'm sure it's just pocketed cO2 or something that's mostly harmless. I guess that just means that MTS can't survive in my tap water, which means I'll probably be breaking down this tank in a few months when the soil goes anaerobic... (yay)


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't fully understand what you mean by "cap". I assume it's a layer of sand on top of the soil. What type of "cap" or sand do you use? Any photo as I cannot imagine it? Maybe the "cap" itself is too light or not sufficient to keep everything underneath from floating.

I have set up and tore down NPT multiple times without encountering such issue with or without snails. I only had big issue with MTS causing glosso to uproot - I got so annoyed that I caught them every night continuously for weeks manually until I had eliminated all of them.

I had air pocket before but it was unable to push all the way up like a volcano. The air was stuck there permanently for weeks. I manually used a tooth pick to poke a hole to release the trapped air eventually - it annoyed me because the air was trapped at the foreground in front at the glass of the tank.


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Soil has to have a cap. Otherwise, you'd have a muddy mess! The cap holds the soil in place.

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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Just an update, everyone; the soil seems to have stopped volcano-ing... for now. I pressed some of it down and pulled some of the plants, then put in a few new ones and some new driftwood, a branchy piece that's pressed into the substrate.

Still no signs of stress in the fish, everyone is doing well.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Congratulations! You have stopped volcano eruption


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Haha yeah! I did have a minor 'splodey in one of the spots where the cap had thinned, but the soil isn't floating, so I'm going to just leave it for now. If I try to move some of the gravel over that spot, I'm more likely to uncover another thin spot.

I'll just wait for the plants to cover it up lol. 

The awesome news is that the creeping charlie I added to the tank is doing awesome, growing like crazy, even with all the weird soil problems. Something is making it happy; it's even growing out of the water at the moment.

The not-so-awesome news is that the red cabomba is less happy with the substrate and expressing a continual desire to float -.-'


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Ugg, i want some red cabomba. 

creeping charlie?? Oh cool, just looked it up; now i want some of that too! xD

do you have more cap to put in the tank?


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Peabody's, atc! Lol! And yeah the red cabomba is really pretty, but I think it doesn't look very nice in my very dark stained water . Hopefully when tannins stop flooding the tank, it'll actually look red instead of mud-colored.

Yeah I have more gravel somewhere. I'll probably use whatever's left over when I set up my 6 gallon (if they ever friggin send it -.-') to fix the thin spots in the 20 gallon.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

You should not move the gravel to cover the spot. Just add more gravel to cover it since you have some extra gravel. Try to avoid messing too much with the soil or gravel in NPT. Otherwise, you will end up like my old tank which had serious algae issue - I planted and re-planted over and over too many times causing the debris to float around and in the long run, all I got was algae as the nutrients escaped from the soil.


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah, that's probably part of the problem. I'm still not finished planting the tank. Waiting for some of the plants to grow in more, so I can replant clippings and runners. Plus I had to remove all of the southeast asian plants as I convert it to a biotope.

The good news is, my BN pleco has done a good job algae eating so far lol and the swordtails produce enough cO2 and poop to keep the plants going. No major outbreaks so far aside from a little green water when I first put it together.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

If the debris escape, I think vacuuming them out may help a bit. It happened to my NPT 2 weeks ago when I accidentally pulled some plants out when trying to clean up the tank.

By the way, any photos of the tank?

Good luck.


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

I'll post some when it's not so ugly... lol!

I had to remove some of the wood and that made the cabomba shed everywhere. Still cleaning up that disaster and waiting for the pygmy chain sword to start chain swording.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

this next summer i'll probably attempt a "dry start aquarium", Diana Walstad linked to it and it looks very interesting and much easier than submersing plants in my super hard water straight up. That way i can order some plants from peabody's xD.


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

What the heck is a dry start aquarium??  I must google this... thing.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Dry start up means you start planting without water.....not exactly no water haha...the soil is still wet.

You should post your ugly tank....then post your beautiful tank later to impress everyone


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Lol great idea totziens! I might just have to do that.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm

here's the link if you got lost xD


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Well it's impossible to get decent photos of this tank because the fish (which are plentiful - like I have way too many in there lol) have this awesome habit of swimming in front of the camera right when I click the button. All you get to see is weird colored blurs. Before anyone panics, I am not keeping all of these fish... I'll keep two-three of the swords, add two more adult swords, and the guppies and endlers. And the pleco is staying because I love her. The black swords and most of the juvies are going to be sold in the spring. I don't know yet what I'll do with the pineapple girl. She's completely cute but doesn't fit into my breeding program, anywhere.

So anyway, I took a video instead of pictures. Here, enjoy. See the back where the soil is exposed? I must cover it lol. Also some of the swords turned brown and melted yesterday. Not sure what that's about, but two of them are my favorite plant, echinodorus angustifolia, so I'm hoping I can bring them back. They get enough light from that fixture I think, so it could be they just don't like my water (it's extremely hard water. even with that tint from the soil and wood tannins, my pH is above 8.2) and they were grown in super soft, acidic water.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Looks cool. Reminds me of black water tank. Black water is a common sight in the jungle of my country where you'll find bettas. 

My interest in swordtails has just been revived recently too. All the while I have a tank full of common red swordtails - I have lost track of how many years they have been around. Recently I notice those swordtails have remained stunted in size. Probably something's wrong with genetic. So, I am now introducing different colour of swordtails with the hope of improving the gene. I lost interest in livebearers generally in the past because the quality was bad (they often carry disease). I bought about 30 of them over the last 2 weeks but I have lost 6 of them (quality is still bad comparing with tetras. I hardly get any dead tetras during quarantine when I bought them). Hope the death rate has stopped by now. No, I do not intend to keep all 24 swordtails in 1 tank. I have actually separated them into 2 tanks and intend to add some into my in-law's pond after quarantine.


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

I have several blackwater tanks, with several species of wild betta from your country  I love them. They are my absolute favorite babies and favorite tanks.

I can't wait for the water to clear in this one though. It's supposed to be a clearwater biotope lol. I'm adding some new plants in the next few days, and hopefully the dwarf and pygmy swords start carpeting soon. Should look a lot better then, and the cabomba should turn actually red once the water clears up (I hope)

I am actually going to be breeding a line of hifin lyretail showa koi swords, that's why I have such a mix of swordtails in there lol. I'm waiting to find the right lyretail girl and be able to get a hifin male from THE breeder in the US. He can't ship until spring, so I figured I'd play around with the blacks I already had fallen in love with.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Showa koi swords fetch higher price compare to other varieties of swordtails in my country. I only saw the price tag without the fish 

I fell in love with pineapple swords lately. Are there 2 varieties of pineapple swordtails? I found one type with silver body with red tail and another one with pinkish body and red tail. They look alike if you don't observe carefully.

I only managed to find one male black one but it died while under quarantine 

I don't have much luck with lyretail ones. All of them died while under quarantine when I attempted to keep them years ago. Is it true that male lyretail with long anal fin may have difficulties breeding?


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Your video is blocked because of music publishing rights in the USA. 

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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

I didn't get the video blocked for me...

looks good! I like the driftwood a lot. Didn't see the pleco though D:


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

atc84 said:


> I didn't get the video blocked for me...
> 
> looks good! I like the driftwood a lot. Didn't see the pleco though D:


Humm..... Got the same message on 2 devices (phone & tablet). Says it "Contains content from EMI Music Publishing and UMG, one or more have blocked it in your country on copyright grounds." That's really weird!

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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah, youtube often does that on mobile devices. If you view it on a computer you'll be fine.

Totziens, it's true that male lyretails can't breed. Their gonopodium is too long to successfully deposit sperm in a female. I'm sorry to hear you haven't had your blacks survive QT. The ones I have came from a top breeder in the US so they're very well bred and therefore very hardy. 

Regarding pineapple swords, I'm not super well versed on them, but I believe there are albino and non albino varieties. The albinos will have red tips, red eyes, and white bodies (the one I have is an albino)


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks for the info, junebug. I am new to pineapple swordtails too. It's my first time trying to keep them. I only kept common swordtails and lyretails in the past. The second generation of lyretails I got were probably not pure lyretails as the tails were not as nice as the parents. Only the colour remained. After several generations, I am getting back common swordtails again without any lyretails in my tank - the only difference is those with lyretail gene have darker red colour. I guess the gene of common swordtail is superior to lyretail.


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## junebug (Aug 5, 2013)

Color and tail type aren't related as far as I know. You probably have one red strain and one orange strain, that's all


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