# 3 Gallon EINatural Experiences



## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Hi, I am looking for people's experiences positive or negative setting up 3-5 gallon EI natural tanks. I haven't decided that this is the route that I will take(it is only a conideration at this point), but as it will be a long term setup is for work, I cannot mess too much with it after it is set up. Just some questions for those who have had negative or positive experiences setting up 3-5 gallon EI natural tanks.

(1) what type of filter did you use or which one proved to work best?

(2) As far as substrate, did you just use regular top soil or soil capped with a thin layer of sand. And if you used sand, which one did you find worked well, Tahitian Moon Sand, Pool Filter Sand, Onyx Sand, Play Sand, zeosand, etc.,

(3) What types of plants grew best in your setup.

(4) What was algae like(i.e.,manageable, out of control, etc.,)?

(5) I am assuming that people used CoolWhite compact fluorescent. What wattage light worked best for you? Did you find it necessary to supplement the light with natural sunlight. How many total hours light did you provide for best results?

(6) What stocking levels of fish/inhabitants were you able to maintain without problems. Standard 1 inch of fish per gallon or more. 

Thanks for any replies, suggestions and recommendations.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I didn't have any success with anything smaller than a 5G... My 5G is wonderful.. My 2G fish bowl was a mess.
I'm going to describe the 5G.
1. Hagen internal filter for 5G.
2. Premium top soil capped with schultz's aquasoil. (cheaper than sand or gravel @ the lfs.. go figure).
3. Everything except dwarf hairgrass. I'm experimenting with HM & HC now.
4. Easy as pie algae. GSA, Brown on the glass. I just scrape once a month and let the shrimp & snails eat it.
5. 100% sunlight.. it gets 4-5 hours of direct & indirect sun.
6. Inverts only.

let me find a picture of it.









I have another one, a 10G.. it's doing ok. I just got it up & running stocked with fish.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> I didn't have any success with anything smaller than a 5G... My 5G is wonderful.. My 2G fish bowl was a mess.
> I'm going to describe the 5G.
> 1. Hagen internal filter for 5G.
> 2. Premium top soil capped with schultz's aquasoil. (cheaper than sand or gravel @ the lfs.. go figure).
> ...


Thanks for responding. What plants(could you name them) specifically have you had the most success with in the 5 gallon? And do you mix crushed oyster shells into the top soil. Just wondering as the instructions here suggest that.
http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTankDemo.html

By the way, your tank looks great


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I had calcium chloride & potassium sulfate laying around.. That's what I added to the soil before I capped it off. I didn't measure. 
Maybe a teaspoon of each. I do dose a small amount of ferts to the tank once in a while when the plants look a bit yellow.
That tank took 8 months to a year to grow out like that. It is a low-tech tank after all.

plants in the tank: ( i'll list in order on which I think grew the best/fastest )
1. h. polysperma
2. l. aromatica
3. crypt sp..(red or brown wendtii?)
4. rotala sp.
5. l. diandria
6. micro sword
7. water lilly
8. lastly, drawf hair grass... no growth but alive.


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## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

Hi. I wanted to tell you about my NPT gallons. I have two which house a single male Beta each, and sit side by side so my Betas can flare at each other. I have an inch of generic garden soil (no chemical frts but did list 'organic compost' and looks to have a little peat.) I soaked it for 3 days in a pail, poured off the water, plunked it in the glass gallon jars and et it set for a few more days. Then I put some left over EcoComplete on top and planted Dwarf Sagitaria, loose HC bits and Hydrocotyle leucocephala (pennywort?) stems that looked dead. I was setting up my first 10 gallon with plants and I stuck whatever looked 'ify' in these single gallons. My gallon jars are without filter, relying wholly on the plants. For this reason I have done 1/3 to 1/2 water change every week, but am reconsidering that now that my porch flowers don't need watering. The jars go into dierct sunlight for 2-3 hours when we have it and sit on the kitchen counter under a flourescent ceiling light. This room gets lots of natural light and is the most used in the house, so the ceiling light is on about 5 hrs a day. These two gallons have done better than my 10 gal tank. Everything flourished. The Sag. Subulata is reproducing. I had to take out the pennywort b/c Gordon the Beta got his fins caught, thought he was under attack, yanked it all up and shredded himslf 'fighting' with it. I took it out everywhere because the root shoots really worked him over, but he's healing now. That was a poor choice on my part, and I've had more than my share of rookie mistakes. But I did these jars on a whim. And now, after only 6 weeks they are great. I tell myself every day that I have to wait to convert the 10 gallon to real soil because it will be such a chore. 
PS I have never had amonia, nitrite or nitrate reads, over three different strip/dip test sets. Yet. (did I just jinx myself?)


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

> I have two which house a single male Beta each, and sit side by side so my Betas can flare at each other.


why would you do that?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for the response(s) everyone. I have a marineland 5 gallon hex like the one shown in this setup demo.
http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTankDemo.html

Anyone have any experience using these. Specifically, what wattage compact fluorescent did you find worked best with and without supplemental sunlight and what plants did you find grew best.

I am really tempted to create two setups for experimental purposes. One EI natural tank as per above demo link and the other a Tom Barr non C02 low maintenance tank as per this link.
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

The purpose of the experiment is to see which gives the best long term and short term healthy plant growth, requires the least maintenance, has the least algae issues and holds out the best over the long term.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Sounds interesting.

That hex in my demo article is still doing great, tho the tennellus is getting annoying and I'm working on gradually pulling it out cuz it's gotten like 6-7 inches tall (the person I got the tenellus from swore up and down it never got taller than 2 inches in her tanks). These rooted grasses appear to be so happy in soil that they won't stay short. The crypts are still working well in the hex. 

I also have a little 5 gallon bowfront set up at work. I almost killed that tank a few months ago. the heater got too warm and I covered it too tightly. It was a stinky mess. a partial water change and dosing with PP cleared that up nicely. I'm not liking the crypts (Wendetti and lutea) in that tank cuz the tank is so short, however I tried pulling some of the lutea last week and it's in there solid...doesn't want to come up. The tenellus I have in there came from a commercial source and has stayed pretty short/flat, but it doesn't spread like gangbusters like tenellus and sag subulata do.

I won another little bowfront at a club meeting here while back. Lime green! LOL It's set up pretty much the same and I'm also working on gradually pulling out the tenellus that's too tall for the tank. I'll probably pull the crypts out as well because I've found a couple of smaller swords that will work in a little tank. I just got some glosso from another friend this weekend and have a couple of other foreground grasses from another friend that I'm growing out in pots first to see if they stay short when planted in soil. I'd really like to try HC one of these days for the foreground. I'll probably redo the plants over thanksgiving break.

None of them have anything going for water circulation. I have a heater in two, no heater in the other. I took my bettas home for christmas break and never took them back up there cuz I felt bad about not feeding them over the weekends. The bowfront at work currently has a small bn pleco and a thriving colony of cherry shrimp. The hex had baby apple snails for a while, but I moved them out and recently added a dozen ghost shrimp. the home bowfront has a betta and a a small bn pleco. All have MTS and various pond snails and ramshorn snails along with other small unknown critters. 

Overall all three tanks are happy. I have a bit of green algae that likes to grow on the acrylic in one, but it's not a big problem. No other alage problems to speak of. Just gotta find some other plants that'll actually stay foreground size in a tank that small.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> .. tho the tennellus is getting annoying and I'm working on gradually pulling it out cuz it's gotten like 6-7 inches tall (the person I got the tenellus from swore up and down it never got taller than 2 inches in her tanks). These rooted grasses appear to be so happy in soil that they won't stay short...


 Oh....oh....And I ordered this as one of the plants to put in the tank. I was trying to replicate your success exactly, without changing anything.




DataGuru said:


> ...The crypts are still working well in the hex.


That is good to hear as this is one of the plants I was going to use. I heard from quite a few people that the Crypts tend to do really well in these types of hex tanks regardless of substrate.




DataGuru said:


> ...I'm not liking the crypts (Wendetti and lutea) in that tank cuz the tank is so short...


That is not good to hear



DataGuru said:


> ......I also have a little 5 gallon bowfront set up at work. I almost killed that tank a few months ago. the heater got too warm and I covered it too tightly. It was a stinky mess...


Lol, I can relate to that. That is why I have this hex to experiment with. I previously went high tech with this hex. The problem was I used a 30 watt full spectrum compact fluorescent. Over time it heated the water so much even with the plastic cover flap removed, that everything died and it turned into a dog's breakfast. It was beyond saving. I salvaged whatever plants I could and shoved them in my 2.5 gallon high tech hex which is doing really well. Unknown to me, some of the plants that I stuck in the 2.5 gallon from this tank were rotting and before you knew it, the 2.5 gallon began smelling like a sewer. So, I quickly removed the offending plants and did a series of water changes and this reversed the problem. I think that if you want to go high tech with these types of tanks, you are best off to totally remove the top cover, including filter assembly, substituting with a HOB filter and using a 27 watt compact fluorescent desk lamp that can be place some inches above the tank to prevent/minimize heating issues. Otherwise, you pretty much are restricted to using no more than a 10-20 watt compact fluorescent bulb if you are going to leave things as is and grow only plants that do well in low-medium light conditions.



DataGuru said:


> ...I've found a couple of smaller swords that will work in a little tank.


If you don't mind me asking, what type of swords are these??



DataGuru said:


> I have a bit of green algae that likes to grow on the acrylic in one, but it's not a big problem. No other alage problems to speak of.


That is probably green dust algae or green spot algae. If it is green spot algae, I read a nerite zebra snail(the only snail know to do this) will consume it. 
http://www.petfish.net/articles/Invertebrates/Zebra_Nerite.php

If it is green dust algae, it will have to run its course and will die and disappear on its own once it completes its life cycle(lol, that could be months).



DataGuru said:


> Just gotta find some other plants that'll actually stay foreground size in a tank that small.


Anubias may be do the trick for you. Sometimes the older leaves are prone to algae, but if they remain partially shaded by larger plants, they don't tend to get as much algae.

The Petite Nana (Anubias Pygmy Nana) remains less than the size of a 50 cent piece full grown.
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Petite_Nana_Anubias_Pygmy_Nana_p/an701.htm

Many thanks for sharing your setup and step by step on how to get a Natural Planted Tank Set up. That is so helpful.

Regards


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## majolo (Oct 5, 2007)

I have olive nerites and they eradicate green spot algae as well. They are incredible algae eating machines! The downsides to them are:
They lay bright white eggs which some find unsightly and are hard to remove (not viable in freshwater)
They are heavy, so when they climb plants they can bend the stems and leaves down if they're not sturdy.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

It's the two little bowfronts I'm not liking the crypts in because the crypts are too tall and mainly the skinny bottom of the stem is visable thru the front. That's not a problem in the hex, because it's taller.

Tropica says Echinodorus tenellus is only supposed to get 4 inches tall. and APC's plantfinder says it's only supposed to get 3 inches tall. 
Same with the sag subulata. APC says 4-6in, Tropical says 4". 
When planted in soil, my sag gets two foot tall even in the smaller high light tanks and also when getting direct sunlight.

I think the little rosette sword is Echinodorus parviflorus v Tropica.
the other one may be Echinodorus 'Rosé'
I'll try and get some pics to confirm.
I usually end up getting my plants mostly from other hobbiests or LPS. Those two swords were finds at the mom and pop pet store down the street from me.

So how well do the petite nanas root? They don't really do they?
Long term in a NPT, plants without roots don't do too well.

Here's the foreground I'd like to try out Hemianthus callitrichoides "Cuba"
http://www.tropica.dk/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=621


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> ...So how well do the petite nanas root? They don't really do they?
> Long term in a NPT, plants without roots don't do too well.
> ...


You can tie the anubias petite nana to a small rock with fishing thread, tie it to a small piece of driftwood, or just use the lead weight it comes with to leave it anchored above the substrate. They rot if you bury the rhizome. I have one in my 2.5 gallon fish bowl(with one peppered cory) at work and it seems to be doing fine on plain gravel and some water column fertilization. I will try to post a picture. It seems to be doing well(i.e, not dieing and it did sprout a new leaf after about two months). Like the java fern the anubias is a plant that is a water column feeder and prefers to have its roots and rhizome exposed and to get its nutrients from the water column. I am still learning about natural planted tanks, but if floating plants do well in a natural planted tank I don't see why the anubias would not as it would draw nutrients in the same way and there is likely to be nutrients in the tank water from the fish wastes. I guess I will find out as I plan to put some anubias plants in my natural planted hex tank.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yea, I'm familiar with anubias. I actually have one of the larger nubias species potted in topsoil (with the rhizome above the gravel) and it's happy as a clam.

In newly set up NPTs non-rooted plants do fine. Down the road when there are less nutrients in the water, that may not be the case. 

In my 125 gallon NPT the floaters dwindled away last year. Now that I've added more of a bioload they're flourishing again (which is good, cuz I need sources of duckweed to feed my goldies).


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

ok. got some pics of the plants I'm growing out.

Right now they're potted up (in topsoil) in one end of my 20 long cherry shrimp/bn pleco tank with a 20 watt 6500K bulb over them. They also get some direct sunlight in the mornings.









Here's the little rosette sword on the right and a couple of grasses in the smaller white bowl up front.









a closer up of the rosette sword. Echinodorus parviflorus v Tropica?









and the grasses. Anyone recognize them? I should know what the really really skinny one is, but I'm blocking on it.









Here's the other sword. It's over in my 55 gallon temporary home for yellow lab cichlids. just lamo stock lighting there and no sunlight. It's amazingly happy there. Echinodorus 'Rosé'?


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Wow, you have some manificent plants  And your point about water column nutrients and effect on floaters and anubias makes sense. What would you consider a decent stocking level for a 5 galloin natural planted hex. I was going to add a nerite snail and betta. Would waste produced by these two be sufficient for the plants, or would you suggest additional fish or invertebrates. Thanks.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

thanks! I just love finding new plants to try out. and I hope these grasses will actually stay short! LOL I don't hold out much hope for the glosso being a good foreground solution cuz of its light and CO2 requirements. I do think the two sword plants will be perfect in smaller NPTs. It's just going to be a big hassle to get the crypts out of the bowfronts because of their root systems.

How much stocking it'll handle probably depends on how much light/sun it gets and how densly planted it is. Lots o light and densely planted would support more critters than sparsely planted with lower lighting.

Diana recommends moderate stocking, but that's kinda ambiguous.
One rule of thumb with regular tanks is 1 inch of adult fish per gallon.
So maybe moderate stocking would be .5 to .75 inch of fish per gallon.

My inclination would be to decide based on water quality readings. If ammonia and nitrIte stay at 0ppm and fish and plants look happy, then the stocking levels should be fine. I usually just go by the do the fish and plants look happy rule of thumb. e.g. I pulled all the yellow lab cichlids out of my outdoor pool when the weather started getting colder and had nowhere to put them cept for a 55 gallon NPT. There were probably 75 juvies up to 2 inches long in there for a month. I offloaded some last weekend, so there are still at least 50 in there along with a herd of endlers, a couple of bn plecos and the usual snails. I haven't tested the water, but fish and plants look happy, so I'm just keeping an eye on it.

Nerite snails don't get that big. Bettas aren't that big either really. Maybe a couple of inches of fish with that combo. 

My hex at work has been sitting with nothing but MTS, ramshorns and pond snails in it and hasn't been fed in at least a month. and it was doing just fine. no algae to speak of at all. With a dozen ghost shrimp, it's hardly stocked at all now. That's probably the reason it doesn't have much algae to speak of even with direct sunlight.

The bowfront at work has a 3 inch BN pleco the usual snails and a herd of cherry shrimp. 

The bowfront at home has a male betta and a small bn pleco and the usual snails and probably some shrimp.

I think they could all handle more of a fish load given they're so heavily planted.

Another aspect of it is the bacteria that eat debris in the tank also produce ammonia. In one of Dr Tim's articles, he indicated that they are a major producer of ammonia in aquaria. If we do overfeed and leave mulm in the tank to add nutrients to the soil, that's also contributing ammonia to the mix, and should count as part of the bioload.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: 3 Gallon ELNatural Experiences*



DataGuru said:


> thanks! I just love finding new plants to try out. and I hope these grasses will actually stay short! LOL I don't hold out much hope for the glosso being a good foreground solution cuz of its light and CO2 requirements. I do think the two sword plants will be perfect in smaller NPTs. It's just going to be a big hassle to get the crypts out of the bowfronts because of their root systems...


You are lucky that you have access to a variety plants to experiment with. I am not so lucky. Where I live, "healthy" plant selection is very limited.



DataGuru said:


> How much stocking it'll handle probably depends on how much light/sun it gets and how densly planted it is. Lots o light and densely planted would support more critters than sparsely planted with lower lighting.


Lol, what about a densely planted tank with low light. The twist on what I am doing is low light densely populated NPT with lots of low light plants, mostly anubias.



DataGuru said:


> Diana recommends moderate stocking, but that's kinda ambiguous.
> One rule of thumb with regular tanks is 1 inch of adult fish per gallon.
> So maybe moderate stocking would be .5 to .75 inch of fish per gallon.


Hopefully, she can clarify. One also needs to keep in mind the growth demands of the fish. How big the fish may grow, needs to be taken into account, otherwise, sticking to the rule becomes really difficult.



DataGuru said:


> My inclination would be to decide based on water quality readings. If ammonia and nitrIte stay at 0ppm and fish and plants look happy, then the stocking levels should be fine. I usually just go by the do the fish and plants look happy rule of thumb. e.g. I pulled all the yellow lab cichlids out of my outdoor pool when the weather started getting colder and had nowhere to put them cept for a 55 gallon NPT. There were probably 75 juvies up to 2 inches long in there for a month. I offloaded some last weekend, so there are still at least 50 in there along with a herd of endlers, a couple of bn plecos and the usual snails. I haven't tested the water, but fish and plants look happy, so I'm just keeping an eye on it..


That is an excellent idea - using water quality to gauge stocking levels. I guess it becomes a fine balancing act, you don't want to stock so much that you get water quality problems and are forced to do more frequent water changes, but you don't want to small a stock level that there is insufficeint waste to sustain the plants long term. If that happens, then you are forced to dose the tanks with ferts, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of the Natural Planted Tank concept.



DataGuru said:


> Nerite snails don't get that big. Bettas aren't that big either really. Maybe a couple of inches of fish with that combo.


I have set up the tank. The water is a bit cloudy still, I have put in a carbon filter. I will have to run some tests to make sure that the water tests for zero ammonia and nitrites before transferring a Betta in cramped quarters into this tank. I may wait on the nerite snail as there is really nothing in the way of algae in the tank for him to feed off and I don't know if the snail would take a liking for algae wafers.



DataGuru said:


> My hex at work has been sitting with nothing but MTS, ramshorns and pond snails in it and hasn't been fed in at least a month. and it was doing just fine. no algae to speak of at all. With a dozen ghost shrimp, it's hardly stocked at all now. That's probably the reason it doesn't have much algae to speak of even with direct sunlight.


I love snails within reason, but the fact that they reproduce so quickly concerns me as I always fear that water quality issues could be a problem, and the more the snails reproduce, the greater the bioload. There must be some thresh-hold that bioload from uncontrolled snail reproduction could overwhelm a tank and result in water quality issues for the rest of the inhabitants. I mean how much can plants really compensate. There is gotta be a limit. Once the balance of waste outstrips what the plants can filter or keep up with, what then?



DataGuru said:


> ... 3 inch BN pleco the usual snails and a herd of cherry shrimp.


I absolutely love those BN Plecos eventhough it is rumored that they are notorius for demolishing java fern and sword plant leaves due to their very rough handling of these leaves. I have a BN Pleco in my 10 gallon signature tank with some java fern. He has left the java fern leaves and is probably the most shy and peaceful fish in the tank.



DataGuru said:


> Another aspect of it is the bacteria that eat debris in the tank also produce ammonia. In one of Dr Tim's articles, he indicated that they are a major producer of ammonia in aquaria. If we do overfeed and leave mulm in the tank to add nutrients to the soil, that's also contributing ammonia to the mix, and should count as part of the bioload.


That is really interesting. I sometimes use Septo-Bac to quickly neuralize ammonia spikes. 1 Tablespoon mixed in a cup of water. I strain the water to get rid of the solid stuff and pour the clear liquid into my filter. 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=44755
http://www.cichlids.com/disc/read.php?2,23267,23271,quote=1

Yeah, I know, this is primarily for use in uncycled, unplanted tanks. A while ago, for experimental purposes, I used it in my signature planted tank to neutralize an unaccounted ammonia spike. That was a couple of months ago and as the tank is subject to monthly water parameter tests, I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary and the fish and plants still appear healthy. In fact, I just noticed a major growth explosion, and will be forced to do trim this weekend as the floaters(egera densa and cardamine have really spread and are beginning to choke out the tank) 
I was tempted to test the Septo-Bac on the 5 gallon hex NPT that I set up, but decided not do as I wanted to stick to the step by step as much as possible.

Thanks for all the useful information.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

For what its worth, here is a picture of my NPT 5 Gallon Hex Tank that I set up Nov 7 2007. The water is still a little cloudy. And I will be adding some egera densa that I will be trimming from my signature tank. No fish or inverts. I need to test ammonia and nitrite to make sure it is zero. I have a Betta in cramped quarters waiting to take occupancy.

Filter: It is a marineland with its own built in filter so I left the built in biowheel filter running and placed a carbon filter insert to suck up some of the organics.
Soil: Green Leaf Topping soil from Home Depot, capped with Traction Sand. I had no crushed oyster shells but did have some calcium sulphate, so I mixed in a couple of teaspoons of the calcium sulphate into the soil. As my tap water has submarginal levels of calcium, I felt that this probably would not hurt and if anything would create a ideal environment for shrimp and snails that would be highly dependent on adequate calcium for their exoskeletons and shells. 
Plants: Crypt, Dwarf Sag, pygmy chain sword, Cryptocorne Bronze Wenditti, Anubias 'Congensis',Anubias barteri v. 'Nana'
Light: 10 watt Coral Life Coralmax full spectrum

Other than the fact that some of the sag and pygmy sword leaves turning brown(which I believe would be expected given the fact that the plants are acclimitizing to new conditions) and water is still cloudy, things don't look too bad.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

In a new NPT you need a mix of rooted plants and fast growing floaters to take up the slack while the rooted plants get established.

You may want to move those crypts in the front closer to the back so you'll have a foreground. otherwise it'll just be a mass of crypts that may shade out your grasses. I'd also add some of the anacharis for now. I don't see the anubias. where are they?

A tank of slow growing plants would be similar to a tank with not much plant mass I'd suspect, as slow growing plants are not sucking up as much ammonia, etc as fast growing plants do.

I've never tried calcium sulphate. I do wonder if the sulphate will cause problems by increasing H2S production from the substrate. 

If you're in a cold part of the country, you can find calcium chloride cheap as ice melter. Swimming pool stores also sell it to harden up water. Carcium carbonate pills will also work, however, they'll also raise KH as well as GH. Magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) is readily available. There's a thread in this forum on dosing to increase the hard water minerals. I think Diana recommends having GH up around 7dh. Since GH is primarily calcium and magnesium, you'd want to dose both.

You wrote:
>How big the fish may grow, needs to be taken into account, 
>otherwise, sticking to the rule becomes really difficult.

that's why it's based on inch of adult fish per gallon.

I just don't think the long term lightly stocked thing is a big deal. You could always freeze some dirt and push it under the substrate to freshen it up. 

MTS are the only snails that get too dense in my tanks. My goldfish love pond and ramshorn snails, so I just bait them out occasionally with slice of zucchini and give the goldies a snack. Can't do that with the MTS tho.

that's the first time I've heard of using bacteria for a septic tank for cycling an aquarium. That's kinda creepy actually because you don't know what bacteria you're adding to the tank. I really really like knowing specifically what I'm adding to my tanks.

In a NPT, you want your plants handing the ammonia and turning it into plant mass rather than the typical biofilter bacteria converting it to nitrAte.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

O.k. the narrow leaf plants in the front are Congensis (Anubias 'Congensis'). There are also two Nana (Anubias barteri v. 'Nana') right front and left, just before tha anubias congensis. I positioned the Crypt in the middle based on the recommendation of someone that has a crypt in an identical tank and told me that it would grow best in the middle.

I understand the need for floaters but the problem is finding a local fish store in my city that sells floaters. Right now, I have another tank that is getting choked out by egera densa and cardamine and I am going to have to do a hack job as it is now interfering with the fish's ability to freely move around. The timing is perfect as I can use some of the Egera Densa from that tank in this tank.

Calcium sulphate is a form of calcium recommended by Tom Barr as well as some moderators on this forum. Mind you they recommend dissolving it in the water. However, I believe MisterGreen used this form of Calcium in his soil when he was setting up his NPT. His NPT has been running for some time and he did not indicate having any problems with it. It is used in beer making to harden the water. Also, calcium sulphate otherwise known as Gypsum is often used as a soil conditioner and is known to help release nutrients and improves soil structure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_sulfate But you are right, I may end up having to dose magnesium as soley using the calcium without the magnesium may create problems.

This was posted by Edward a moderator in the Science Of Fertilizing Forum Section.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...s-w-water-changes-potassium-deficiency-2.html

"*CaCl2[Calcium Chloride] *if d*one with frequent water changes and in small quantities of 15 ppm* in your case will work well. It dissolves fast and can be dosed liquid for increased accuracy. *Higher levels are harmful to plants and fish due to extreme Cl levels.
*
CaSO3, sorry no experience

*CaCO3 increases KH too much, clouds water - takes days to dissolve in aquarium and many plants don't do well.*

*CaSO4[Calcium Sulphate] doesn't dissolve in small quantity of water, must be dosed dry. In aquarium dissolves in minutes, works very well for plants and fish. 500 gram jar will last 5 years."*

Actually the Septo-Bac bacteria is identical to the bacteria used in more expensive products such as Bio-Spira to increase the concentration of bacteria to speed up cycling and neutralize ammonia and nitrite spikes. The difference is in marketing and price. I have used this several times over many years, prior to exploring planted tanks, and I can honestly tell you that I never lost a fish using it. Many of the fish that I have are 9 years old and if Septo-Bac was deadly, they would have already kicked the bucket. Some of those are quite sensitive such as otos, keyhole cichlid, and Ram Cichlid, and there is no doubt in my mind that if this thing had any potential of being harmful, those would have been the first fish to go belly up. But I do understand your point about something like that not being necessary in a NPT where regular cycling and biofiltration does not apply.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

>Actually the Septo-Bac bacteria is identical to the bacteria used in more expensive products such as Bio-Spira to increase the concentration of bacteria to speed up cycling and neutralize ammonia and nitrite spikes.

Interesting. So they say what strains of bacteria it contains? Most of the aquarium cycling snake oils don't say. Dr Tim did his dissertation on the bacteria in bio-spira, so that's the exception. Sure would be handy for newbies who show up with uncycled tanks with toxic water and sick fish.

From its purpose it sounds like it would contain primarily heterotropic bacteria (the ones that eat debris) rather than the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrAte.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> ...Interesting. So they say what strains of bacteria it contains?... From its purpose it sounds like it would contain primarily heterotropic bacteria (the ones that eat debris) rather than the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrAte...


You well, be right, the information I came across is third party. The only thing about Septo-Bac containing autotrophic bacteria is that you would expect to see huge ammonia spikes if that were the case, similiar to products like "waste control"(where the product warns that ammonia spikes are likely as waste is broken down). My way of looking at such information is to look at other peoples' experiences with Septo-Bac and test for myself. The same reason I decided to experiment with the Natural Planted Tank Concept. And even here, I am treading cautiously. The idea of not doing water changes for 6 months is something that I need to test myself and that for me is a real Leap Of Faith. And so the only thing that is going into that tank is a feeder fish or two and some feeder ghost shrimp and perhaps a nerite snail, just to test the idea before testing with more expensive fish.

Prior to getting into planted tanks, I cycled many new tanks and experimented with regular cycling, fishless cycling and cycling using septo-bac. Comparatively speaking, in cases where I used the septo-bac, the tank fully cycled in half the time (2 weeks instead of 4). In all cases where this happened, I tested the water parameters. The time from the ammonia spike to the nitrite spike was reduced by 1/2 and the time from the nitrite spike to the nitrate spike was also reduced by half. And after two weeks, only the nitrate levels were reading high(ammonia and nitrites were 0) which is normal and signals the completion of the cycle. When the fish were placed in the aquarium, they displayed no signs of toxicity and none died. I did use the septo-bac in my 40 gallon tank, I never lost one fish and most of the fish in that tank are still alive after 9 years. I also used the septo-bac in my 20 gallon tank before it leaked and I had really sensitive fish in there like KeyHole Cichlid, marble hatchets, and Ram Cichlid. Even the Amano Shrimp was not phased. I had to transfer the fish into a 10 gallon(my signature tank) when the 20 gallon leaked. The only fish I lost was a neon tetra, but we all know that these fish are prone to dieing and not the hardiest. In the 10 gallon, I dosed Septo-Bac once to neutralize an ammonia spike. I never lost one fish doing that. As far as effect on plant growth. I just posted a update http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld scroll right to the bottom. Dosing the Septo-Bac did not impact on the plant growth. The tank is literally choked with new plant growth. I had to prune today like you would not believe. It was so bad that I literally felt like tearing the tank down. Talk about a jungle. I was able to transfer some Egera Densa into the 5 gallon hex to make up for lack of floating plants. I transferred tons of Cardamine into my 40 gallon that also needed more floating plants.

To be honsest with you, I would have more concerns about what is in my tap water than Septo-Bac. There are at least 5 different chemicals that look like derivatives of alcohol used to control taste and odor. There is one known carcinogenic chemical based on what I found doing a google search, and there is one know toxin produced by Blue Green Algae in residual amounts. With stuff like that in my tap water, I don't thing that I am going to be drinking it too soon. The fact that my fish have survived in that kind of water is truly amazing.

I know what you mean about some products being marketed that have the wrong strains of bacteria. "Cycle" is supposed to have the wrong strains of bacteria and may do more harm than good. However, it is still marketed to speed up cycling and pushed my LFS staff as the product to get to speed up cycling. Planting heavily and using a silent cycle may be the best way to start off a tank. However if you start with unhealthy plants and don't give them proper light or use a proper substrate that can backfire on you big time too. There are people out there who just don't want to be bothered even with the bare minimal tasks of starting and keeping a planted tank and prefer plastic plants. For those people alternative ways of quickly cycling a tank may be in order, especially when you consider that the biggest mistake people make(according to my local fish store) is to be so impatient as to add so many fish to a newly setup uncycled tank resulting in massive fish deaths.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

All the bacteria you need is in the soil. People should cycle with soil or peat moss and not bother with biospira et al.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Interesting. I think personal experiences of something working or not are decent evidence.

Yea, I think bio spira has the correct bacteria, however, their quality control is iffy at best. Sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't.

I just helped a lady do a fishless cycle. Her pH is 8.4, so she's have no leeway on ammonia toxicity if she cycled with fish. she used plants potted in topsoil and saw nitrIte and nitrAte increase at day 2. was cycled to handle at least 2ppm ammonia per day in less than 2 weeks. 
http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8234

Re the lack of partial water changes, I have 6 NPTs running from 5 gallons up to 125 gallons. Several are a couple of years old now and it works. Fish and plants are very happy without weekly partial water changes. I wish my regular tanks were this easy.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> ...I just helped a lady do a fishless cycle. Her pH is 8.4, so she's have no leeway on ammonia toxicity if she cycled with fish. she used plants potted in topsoil and saw nitrIte and nitrAte increase at day 2. was cycled to handle at least 2ppm ammonia per day in less than 2 weeks.
> http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8234


Wow, that is really impressive 



DataGuru said:


> ...Re the lack of partial water changes, I have 6 NPTs running from 5 gallons up to 125 gallons. Several are a couple of years old now and it works. Fish and plants are very happy without weekly partial water changes. I wish my regular tanks were this easy.


It is not that I don't believe you. They say, old habits die hard. Prior to exploring planted tanks, I always did partial water changes and have had fish survive for the longest time, so now I have to change the way I think about these things and take that "Leap Of Faith." That is not always easy to do. And to top it off, I seem to be having a lot of success with a 10 gallon, c02 injected tank, that is overstocked. I am doing partial water changes weekly, dosing ferts, and the plant growth has exploded with no algae. But it is much higher maintenance than I would like, so I decided to explore and experiment with alternative low maintenance tanks.

I took your advise and added some more floating stem plants to the 5 gallon Hex. The funny thing was that I was scared to add cardamine to the 5 gallon because it is said to do well only in bright light.
http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_cardamine.php

As I only have 10 watts light in the 5 gallon hex with no supplemental light, I thought for sure it would die quickly. So far, though, it seems to be doing the best of all the plants in the tank. Go figure.

I love all your tanks as per your signature link. Quite impressive


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

That is fairly bright light since it's floating near the surface.

Thanks. 
tho I need to update my website. Maybe over thanksgiving break.


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