# Filter choice.... ugh



## Crashkt90 (May 20, 2011)

Well I started with a 5g with a HalfMoon Plakat with a java fern.

Now im going to upgrade to a 20g, but I dont know what canister i should use.

Its between Fluval 105 vs Ehim 2232

Help me decide.


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

Eheim Classic 2217 is the best filter for a 20 gallon tank. Tons of biomedia and excellent flow. It may be a little bit too much when you first set it up, but you can dial the flow back with the outflow disconnect valve.

Second best is an Eheim Ecco Pro 300/ 2236. It has half the media capacity, which sucks, but the flow is good and it has several convenient features. While it is way more convenient than the 2217, it has half of the media capacity.

The 2232 only offers one liter capacity for biomedia and this is not much at all. It's flow is too weak for a 20 gallon.

The fluval 105's biggest flaw is that it is a fluval lol. But seriously, while it does have more media capacity than the 2236, it is just as weak as far as turnover rate.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

In addition to the Eheims mentioned, another really good choice for the budget-minded is the Marineland C-Series 220 canister. They do not come with quick disconnect valves but you can buy one for around $12 if needed for your out-flow. They are priced similar to Fluvals but work much better and are easy to load using strictly bio-media, completely eliminating the sponges/pads they are sold with if you choose.


----------



## Crashkt90 (May 20, 2011)

I used to have a 2232 i think thats what the number was, and that was an awesome filter. Does it matter if i hook up the eheim protein skimmer as well with it? Because i am able to have no hood, but the lighting is over head so i do get the protein build up. So that means no 2217 but i can use the others.


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

You can use the skimmer if you want... Dnt see why you couldn't use it with a 2217.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Now I am confused..........YIKS


A protein skimmer on a freshwater tank. Are you sure you don't mean a surface skimmer????? And yes, there is no reason why a surface skimmer would not work.


Protein skimmers on freshwater!!!!!! I've heard of that but also heard they do not work due to lack of water density.

Please educate me!


----------



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

He meant surface skimmer that skims the water from the surface and the protein film along with it.


----------



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

JustLikeAPill said:


> The fluval 105's biggest flaw is that it is a fluval lol. But seriously, while it does have more media capacity than the 2236, it is just as weak as far as turnover rate.


some people swear by fluvals some byeheims, some by hang on back...
i never had a single issue in my fluvals...and much simpler to use than eheim imo


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Guess I've had my head in the saltwater tank too long, now I get it. Thought that was what was meant. 

Dollar per dollar I like the Marineland C-Series canisters. They have far more media capasity then Fluvals (size per size), almost always self-priming (or just push their little knob once or twice) and NO BYPASS and "I don't have to fight with trying to open them." What I don't like about them is the way their hoses lock into the pump head, can be stubborn and a dumb design in our opinion with that cheap little lever that must be turned.

Yea, some people swear by Fluvals, I just use to swear AT mine, especially if I could not get the lids to release or couldn't get the little suckers to prime again. 

All this talk of flow: We decided to get a few flow meters (different manufacturers) and put this flow theory thing to the test. We own many of the more commonly sold, off-the-shelf manufacturers here, various Marinelands, Eheims, Rena (use to have Fluvals but know people that still do so I'll test their's) and so on. Most are loaded with the same media, Efhastrat Pro to keep this as fair as possible. The big Filstars are loaded with sponges only however but are pushing salt water so we will have to find a way to make it fair to the Renas, temporarily move one to a freshwater set-up. The meters won't be in until next week but we will be curious as to the outcome. We think Marineland will come closest to their promised flow ratings.


----------



## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

I used Fluvals for years with no issues from the 3 and 4 series. I never encountered any trouble with removing the lids, priming, hoses, etc. As for the bypass issue I think that is an inherent issue with any basket style filter and I've also come to believe that the emphasis some people place on Fluvals having bypass issues is mainly parroting of what they've read online. I have yet to but would love to see actual facts concerning bypass with all filters and not anecdotal "evidence" supplied by those with xray vision who can actually see what's going on through an opaque container.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

I did not say Fluvals were bad, I just said that out of the two (price for price), I would definately recommend and take Marinelands over Fluvals. TRUE ENOUGH. I also outlined the problems I have had with them (as well as mentioned a problem I have had with Marinelands) and other people frequently report the same. I gave my honest evaluation of the two since they are so similarly priced.

I do not believe I ever said anything about the hoses, even if they are CRAP. My LFS (and his #1 selling filter are the Fluvals because he chooses to sell them, probably because of availability and potential mark-up) had told me that he frequently recieves complaints about priming and advised I tip the filter on it's side as that seemed to help, which it did. I just had to make sure the gasket was perfectly in place or else........ 

I am surprised you have not had problems removing the lids. As long as I would take the whole canister to the sink and let water out to break the vacuum, then I had no problems, much like the Marineland Magnums.

However there was a place (actually several and the dealers know this as well) I had read some years back where they sighted problems with bypass in the Fluvals and this is so commonly mentioned in various forums and reviews that I think there has got to be some truth to it. Agreed, you can not actually see what is going on inside. I totally disagree with you regarding bypass with some filters. If baskets fit real snuggly into the canister walls such as in the case of Marinelands, there obviously is limited chance of bypass unless there is a major obstruction. 1/3 to almost 1/2 of the interior of a Fluval is those 4 sponges, a total waste of space considering the almost solid particians. 

If you look in any sales book on filters, (such as Drs Foster and Smith) Marineland C-Series canisters are mentioned to be "no-bypass filters". I am sure there is the potential for some limited bypass obviously but not near other manufactureres of the same price. 

With having as many types of filters as we do here running in very similar situations on similarly sized tanks, I do have the good fortune to compare the performance of various filters. The problem I had with Fluvals is that the sponges would clog very quickly where the water passed through those particians that hold the four sponges. I also found that the fluvals did get dirty so much faster than other filters. Glad you are happy with your Fluvals, my brother-in-law liked them too but one thing is certain, they undeniably do not have the media capasity of Marinelands of equal size and power and media capasity is what this is all about. Not only do they not have the capasity but with that sponge wall, there is no potential to improve it. Not sure what you mean about the 3s and 4s. I have been in the hobby for over 40 years. I liked the Fluval 04 models even if they did eventually crack somewhere but I do not like the 05s and there are many complaints to be found out there on the internet about them, everyone outlining the same problems I have had with them. 

I do think a lot of it has to do with the number and size of the fish you choose to keep when it comes to ANY FILTER. Every case is different. I had Fluvals of all sizes and shapes over the years until I found something better and Fluval changed their design.

Personally I am an Eheim fan, especially for their wet/dries. While I have no experience with the smaller or newer models, I do think that because of the economy, most manufacturers are cheapening the quality of their product line while adding gimmicks.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I don't know what's all this hype about Fluvals and Eheims.

I'd get the cheapest Chinese filter I can. First off you will barely spend any money, and second the filter will be a huge volume. That's a good thing. Also it has baskets for all sorts of chemical and mechanical media you must use.

Here's the link. For $70 you can't beat this:
http://www.shopjebo.com/100/aquarium_canister_filter_3_ply_835_detail.aspx

Look at this:
"Activated Carbon, Bio-chemical Ceramic noodles,Bio-chemical Foam and Filter wool. INCLUDED! "

--Nikolay


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Now there you go, sounds interesting. Can't beat the price for potential "bio-capasity" and possible versatility. You can load the thing with anything you want too. 

I think we have narrowed down the best medias as well to lava rock (price and performance), ADA (performance) and Eheim Efhastrat Pro (resistance free flow-through), All three have exc. holding capabilities for nitrifying bacteria, lava rock probably being the highest but I am not familiar with ADA's products first hand.

Wonder if you can get replacement parts!!!!!!!!


I thought you didn't like "Chinese anything" Niko! You said that they do not last.


----------



## Crashkt90 (May 20, 2011)

So i ended up, getting a Marineland C-160, it has cabon, bio balls, and big debris and small debris pad. Good flow rate. The reason for not getting a Eheim was the no parts around (which doesnt bother me) and the time it took to ship and all that. Then i also got the Marineland Led system also.. Ill will post pics. Im about to go to the pond to catch some small fish or something to put in there for some ammonia


----------



## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

niko said:


> I don't know what's all this hype about Fluvals and Eheims.
> 
> I'd get the cheapest Chinese filter I can. First off you will barely spend any money, and second the filter will be a huge volume. That's a good thing. Also it has baskets for all sorts of chemical and mechanical media you must use.
> 
> ...


I do enjoy your subtle sarcasm . It helps bring such silly disagreements back to the proper perspective.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

jeff5614 said:


> I do enjoy your subtle sarcasm . It helps bring such silly disagreements back to the proper perspective.


Thank you.

As I thought - the guy would not listen to the good advice much but do what's most convenient. Here I go:

Crashkt90,

Look at all these tanks:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=takashi+amano&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

They are all filtered without any pads, carbon or whatever special magic medias you will find in abundance. Now that you have a Marineland label on what is actually a Jebo filter (yes, you read that right) at least you have a big volume canister. We all hope it's made of materials completely different from Jebo. Maybe one day you will decide to use what those Japanese use for filtration media.

I wouldn't worry about putting fish in the tank to make Ammonia. But hey, it's your tank, use them little suckers as you please. They can't talk so it's all fine and dandy. By the way the tanks in the above link do not use fish to get started either. Weird, I tell you.

--Nikolay


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Yea but when the man is right, he is right. It is all about BIO-CAPASITY and effective filter media. ALL FILTERS HAVE THEIR FLAWS, INCLUDING MY BELOVED EHEIMS SO I CAN'T KNOCK OTHERS, JUST SUPPORT THEIR POSITIVE ATTRIBUTES.

I do have a question for Niko however:

Admittedly, when we talk about lava rock, what makes lava rock so effective as a filter media is the deep craters that house so much nitrifying bacteria. The potential capasity is incredible and the price is so affordable as well as availability from so many sources.

What I question Niko is about lava rock's influence on hardness/alk. Back in "them thar olden days", (more years ago than I care to admit), lava rock was commonly used in African Cichlid tanks because of it's capability to maintain the vital hardness/alk and pH levels required for keeping such fish. I do have lava rock myself that I can open a bag of and put this to the test myself (but I'd rather avoid opening a new bag since I keep discus) but it would seem only likely that the use of lava rock is going to raise hardness/alk levels to a potentially higher level than some aquarists might desire, especially if the natural aquarist is using RO water to begin with. What is your take on this matter????


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

I honestly believe you will be quite happy with your new filter. :smokin: I've had mine for years and have never regretted their purchase. I have three Marineland C-Series filters, 6 Marineland Magnums and three Marineland Emperors. In our Marineland C-Series canisters we chose to do away with the sponges and use media. If you keep your sponges (and there is nothing wrong with that) just rinse them in used aquarium water so they too work towards bio-capasity. That is a size smaller than I would rec. but a good choice non-the-less.

Load your new filter wisely and let your aquarium cycle just as hard as you can. The best medias have lots of deep nooks and crannies yet are easy flow though for oxygenation purposes. 

Adding excess fish food helps force a "hard cycle". I know this is not the common recommendation in the planted area of this hobby but I have found that a good, hard cycle period avoids future problems down the road and puts vital plant nutrients well in place in your system.

What fish and plants do you wish to ultimately keep? I ask only because I have my questions about lava rock's influence on water chemistry (since it is commonly used in African cichlid tanks which require hard, alk. conditions with high pH) but other than that, it is a super good, super cheap super high capasity media.

Sorry I am not familiar with Marineland lighting systems.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Regarding Niko's last post: I think he bought before he saw your post Niko.

Since that is such a small filter, you do want to load it V-E-R-Y wisely. All that crap that does come with the filter is basically good for the garbage containers, nothing more. Get good media and don't bother with the fine filter pads, carbon etc. It is never a good idea to use carbon on a planted tank unless an emergancy and only then, for a very short period. You also do not want to cycle a tank using carbon. It likely only holds a liter or so of media so choose your media wisely.

You can well use the pre-filter pads as bio-material but all else is useless, especially on a filter that small.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Niko shared some incredible pictures, Thanks Niko

It is not necessary to sacrafice fish, you can cycle with fish food. The most common rec when setting up a new planted tank is to get the tank heavily planted. The fish come later. HOWEVER, there is always more than one way to do things. I personally like the hard cycle route but I had fish long before I had live plants. I still like the traditional way of hard cycling any tank but as I said, there is ALWAYS more than one way to do things.


----------



## Crashkt90 (May 20, 2011)

niko said:


> Thank you.
> 
> As I thought - the guy would not listen to the good advice much but do what's most convenient. Here I go:
> 
> ...


Im not going to lie, I may be 20 years old and have been out of the hobby for about 4 1/2 years. Also have forgot some stuff, but there is not reason for your very snarky sarcastic attitude... Im sure you where like this in the beginning also... Good day to you sir.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

It's evening here now. Your "good day" comment is off.

Also because IF you read my posts with a neutral voice you will see that what I'm telling you is what you will eventually learn through frustration and and quite a bit of expense.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

One of my greatest pleasures I have enjoyed over many years of keeping fish (and believe me, I've run the gammit), is getting to know the fish and having them get to know me. Of course this is not uncommon when keeping most kinds of cichlid, especially the larger ones. I am proud to be a discus keeper, not because "I keep discus" (not meant to brag in any way) but because of how they have come to be our friends (my husband's and mine) and relate to us. If strangers/visitors stand back well away from the tanks (discus do not like strangers unless constantly exposed to them), I will demonstrate the people-oriented-nature of these fish and how they come to rely on and befriend their human keepers. 

They are anxious to see me when I get home from work and quickly and excitedly swim to the front of the tanks to greet me. I can tell they are happy to see me even though they also want food. Discus always like their little tid-bits. After I feed them, they still insist on following me when I am working on their homes and like to become involved in anything I am doing. They follow my hands around (not afraid of plant grooming equipment) and investigate everything I may be doing at the time. They can actually be a pain in the butt because they are always there, investigating and CONSTANTLY in the way. I actually have to scoot them off to get my work done. I can pet my discus, handle them with no trapping devices, investigate any irregularities on their bodies and work with them. We've had many of our discus for years. There are numerous types of fish that actually bond with their keepers. Some will even actually come half out of the water to get my attention. They truly are among our pets. 

Fish are much smarter and more human oriented than many people think. Goldfish and koi are definately among the more human oriented fish as are cichlids and many others. 

We often think we are glad we are fortunate enough to sell our plants. No loss if someone kills our plants. We are also so glad we do not have to sell our discus however. We worry about what kind of homes they would end up in and if people would really try to care for them as we do. There are very few people that come to mind that we have actually sold a discus to (we have to know the buyer well) and it is not because we don't have discus for sale if we wanted to sell them.

A life is precious, no matter what form it comes in.


----------



## cino (May 1, 2011)

Crashkt90 said:


> Im not going to lie, I may be 20 years old and have been out of the hobby for about 4 1/2 years. Also have forgot some stuff, but there is not reason for your very snarky sarcastic attitude... Im sure you where like this in the beginning also... Good day to you sir.


Try to remain open to the years of experience others offer. They spend their time on these forums to try to help and encourage.

I do not always agree with Niko (having 40 plus year under my own belt but there is ALWAYS more to learn and I far from have near all the answers) but I have to respect his obvious years of dedication and experience and to some degree (I have not checked his personal page) his training. Everyone has something to share. I'd like to see Niko's own work. As I said earlier, "nothing is carved in stone, every tank and every hobbyist is their own individual".

Please for your own success and the health of your animals, stay away from carbons and most filter pads as they just take up valueale space in a small filter such as your's. Your filter should work fine however PROVIDED IT IS LOADED WITH HIGH CAPASITY MEDIA ONLY. Healthy plants will boost your system and relieve your bio-filter.

The coarse trapping sponges can stay if you are on a limited budget. I do not use sponges or chemical media in my Marinelands or in any of my filters except two and only then it is strictly ONE SMALL, NARROW sponge. My Marineland filters have lasted a good amount of years thus far. I like the idea that I can get replacement parts for Marinelands unless something major goes wrong such as a failed pump head. With Eheims, you can replace any part including the pump head (AT A PRICE) but that has nothing to do with the conversation, they are just the ONLY shelf filter that offers this but they better for the price.

You will find in time that it is not at all uncommon to wait for weeks to get a part or new device for anything. Goes with the territory, LOL

It is always wise to stick to the basics (or return to) in "any persuit" when confused however. Niko advocates the Japanese way of doing things and the results are very obvious. The quality of ADA and ADG is also equally obvious. Do you need these items however!!! It is an individual thing and based upon the owner's individual and ultimate goals in what they wish to and can afford to create.

"""""We all learn as we go and if we are wise, we never stop learning""""".


----------

