# Where to start??? Complete Newbie



## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Hey Guys,

I've been lurking on this board for the better part of two weeks. I've read the two articles on the sticking and was wondering does anyone else have a good link that I should read. I currently have 180 gallon tank with 11 discus. I was thinking about getting a 90 gallon for the discus and using the 180 for a planted tank. Or do you guys think I should start with a smaller planted tank before converting my 180?

Thanks,

Matt


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Hey Matt,

Welcome to apc. You can also check out this link as well:
Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks. Also you can check out the stickies in the fert forum for fertilizing, if you haven't already.

As far as what size tank, I would opt for something smaller, but I guess you could jump in full blast with the 180.  Do you have appropriate lighting for the 180?


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks Bert,

I don't have the lighting. I was looking into various lighting options. You have any input on the topic?I have been trying to figure out how much converting my 180 is gonna cost me. I am lucky enough to have a good friend that is well versed in planted tanks and a local planted aquarium club in my area that I can bug with questions/problems. 

BTW are you a Gator Fan? I a UF alumni and could be happier right now. It's great to be a Florida Gator!! Go Gators!

matt


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> BTW are you a Gator Fan? I a UF alumni and could be happier right now. It's great to be a Florida Gator!! Go Gators!


 You betcha! :thumbsup:


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Bert,

Is it really easier to manage a smaller planted tank Vs. larger planted tanks. My experience with fish leads me to lend towards a larger tank.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

I think if you have never kept a planted tank before you would be wise to start small, like a 29 gallon.

Once you realize the astonishing amount of work required by a healthy high light high tech 29 gallon you will probably thank God, Allah or Vishnu that you didn't opt for the 180.

On the other hand, if you like trimming out pounds (literally) of plant matter on a weekly or biweekly basis then maybe a 180 is right up your alley.


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## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

If harvesting the plants would be the only bad thing about big tanks that would be great. The rate of plant growth can be easily controlled. There is something worse. If you have no experience with plants and you start with a 180G tank, chances are you may harvest algae in big quantities and loose hundreds of dollars worth of plants. A 180G tank full of juicy cladophora. Wow! If you have, as you say, an experienced friend who can watch over your initial stages of the setup then by any means go for it! I have a big tank and love the space in it and the impression it makes. If, however, your friend is not always there and you are on your own - go with the small tank. Oh and yeah...You will need quite a bit of $ to get this behemot going


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I would start with a smaller planted tank due to the start up cost. Just think how much money it would take just to heavily plant such a large tank from day one; not including lights, C02, ferts etc. 

First decide if you want to go high or low tech, this way you can decide which lighting will be best for the plants you decide to keep. Then from there you can decide what else you need in the way of equipment, ferts etc. 

I think a good starter size would be from a 20-30 gallon. You don't want to go too small, because that presents other issues.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

One benefit with starting with a smaller tank first is that you can use it as a farm to grow a ton of plants for your 180 once you get the hang of things. good luck!


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

After reading everybody's comments and talking with a few experienced hobbists I have decided to go with a smaller tank. I have a few more questions though. What are the dimensions for 29 gallon tank? What kind of lighting would be required(I've the rule about how many watts/per gallon)?MH or T5? I was planning to use full c02 system (cause I am lazy I do not want to do the diy with yeast). I was planning to a small eheim canister (2213 i think). How do you guys hide your heaters? Do you guys use a in-line heater? I'm trying to create an aquarium with/out too many objects in the the tank besides plants/rocks/driftwood. Thanks for any input 

Matt


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> What are the dimensions for 29 gallon tank?


I had a 29 for a while, and as I recall it's 30x12x17 (L/W/H). It's not the easiest of tanks to 'scape due to its shallow depth of 12 inches. I might suggest something along the way of a 40 or 50 breeder if you wanted something a little bit larger.

On the 40, the AHS 96W kit should work fine for you. I have a 50 breeder and I have the 96W AHS plus a 30W strip, works ok for me.

I use the Hydor on-line heater. Been real happy with it. My filter is the RenaXP2, provides enough flow to run the water through an in-line reactor as well as the heater. I don't know how the Eheim compares.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Yeah I keep a 29 now, it's a little akward but it's not because of the depth in my opinion. It's because the height is greater than the depth, giving the tank a weird size.. basically there's just too much room up above and it isn't aesthetically appealing.

I find a foot of substrate front to back to be plenty of room to work in.. I just wish I could cut 6 inches off the height.. but the tank was a gift.. 

Typically the best tank is of equal height and depth.

A 20 gallon Long has the same footprint as a 29 but is a foot deep and a foot high. It's what I'd suggest as a starter tank.

Ditto the Hydor, it's a great product. Rena Filstars are great too.

As for lots of stuff in the tank, I don't really worry about it if I'm not doing an aquascape, and even then it doesn't really matter.. remember most of the really amazing photos you see of people's aquascapes are done after they have removed all the equipment from the tank and prepped it especially for the photo shoot.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

mv1175 said:


> What are the dimensions for 29 gallon tank?


 According to All Glass the dimensions are 
30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 18 3/4



> What kind of lighting would be required(I've the rule about how many watts/per gallon)?MH or T5?


 Power compacts or T5 would work well.



> I was planning to a small eheim canister (2213 i think).


I have found the Rena Filstar to be a much easier filter to prime, setup and maintain.



> How do you guys hide your heaters? Do you guys use a in-line heater?


I use regular heaters hidden behind plants.


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Hey guys,

I have decided to go with the 180 gallon instead on the 29 gallon. I currently have discus in the tank and would love to see it planted with discus. If I did a 29 gallon setup I would have to buy everything lights,filter, tank, C02 system, substrate, plants etc(and then I would want something bigger). With the 180 all I need is the retro fit kits for AH, substrate, C02 and plants. I already have an eheim 2260. After seeing a few dicus planted tanks on the web I can't resist it If you guys have any input or links to nice looking discus planted tanks it would be great( I have already seen Jeff Senske tank)

Thanks,
Matt


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Good luck with that man.

A planted discus tank is easily the most challenging planted tank there is. A 180 gallon makes it more so. I have been doing this for a year now and wouldn't even think of attempting a planted discus tank.

The parameters discus require, which you are familiar with, are not the same parameters the majority of plants prefer.

To begin with, discus require temperatures of at least 83 degrees. The majority of plants don't do very well in those sorts of high temperatures, so right there you will be drastically limited in the plants you can keep. The ideal temperature range for plants is 72 to 75 degrees.

Next, discus don't like bright lights. If you want calm discus that behave naturally, you can't keep them under bright light.

Next, discus are very sensitive so your nitrates must remain under 10 ppm. Anyone who has kept a planted tank will tell you that it's a fine line between 10 ppm and 0 ppm. That means you can easily bottom out on your nutrients if you are not on top of things all of the time, and when that happens algae will bloom. Given the popularity of the EI method, it's easy to get a sense for the difficulty of such a task. I mean that the primary reason people use EI is to ensure that there is always enough nutrients for the plants. EI tanks routinely have 20 to 30 ppm of N in them. Discus wouldn't like that one bit. Of course there's the PPS method which if you're going to do a planted discus tank will pretty much be mandatory.

These are just a few of the difficulties. I am certain there are others I cannot recall.

In summary, I think you're getting in way over your head, but I wish you all the best.

Let us know how it goes.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

*Examples*

Matt, I too, vote for keeping the discus in the 180 and getting a smaller tank to plant. Since you are in Houston, you might want to see my discus tank, it is barebottom but with planted driftwood. I also have a planted 60 gallon. At one point I had 7 tanks, mostly planted, and I have slimmed down to these two, so I can manage the maintainence of the discus.

If you have the room, I suggest a 58 gallon to start with for the planted tank -- not just that I have a used Oceanic for sale right now! -- but the dimensions are nice, 17" front to back and the front has a 2:1 ratio that is best for viewing, IMO (many big tanks are just too long to enjoy the design properly).

This one held discus and driftwood with anubias and moss so it does not have high wattage lighting now. Lighting a 3' tank is pretty easy, you'll have several choices of how to do it, a retrofit probably best, I'd think. The height is easy to get into to tend plants (my 105 is too tall for me to reach the bottom so I am very aware of that limitation!) and the size means you can fill it and it is big enough to be stable once it is all set up. I also have a 29 gallon that was set up for plants, in the attic and I guess I'd like to sell it too. It was OK to learn on, but if you have the room, you'll want bigger soon enough.

The Fish Ranch has a good selection of very large wood pieces, you can shop many other stores as well but they usually have the most big stuff. I think I got the wood from the 105 gallon there (Do mind the actual size you have at the surface, I had to saw off a bit of my big chunk to get it past the glass brace!)


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Hey guys,

I am aware it will be difficult to have a discus planted tank, but I always enjoy a challenge. I will be moving the discus to another tank for a month or so to allow for better plant growth conditions. I do not plan to grow a whole lot of plants in the tank. Maybe some swords, anubis, and java fern. I only plan to have 1/3(at most) of the tank planted at most to allow the discus swimming room. I am trying to achieve at setup that is pleasing to the eyes( plants, driftwood, and rocks Vs. bare bottom tank). 

Banderbe,
You have any links to the EI & PPS methods? I will not be setting up the tank for at least a month. I plan to use this time learn as much as I can and figure out how to layout my tank. 

Anonapersona,
Thanks for the tip on the driftwood. I plan to stop by The fish ranch pretty soon. I also plan to be at the next Nash meeting see you there. Dan (gulf coast discus) and Thanh have been helping to plan out this tank.

Thanks,
Matt


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

mv1175 said:


> I only plan to have 1/3(at most) of the tank planted at most to allow the discus swimming room.


That's going to cause you some problems. To prevent algae, it is recommended that the tank be "densely" planted. Usually that means at most 25% of the substrate surface is visible and in most tanks no substrate is visible. According to a long time forum member named Rex Grigg, another rule of thumb is 4 to 6 stem plants for every gallon of water. In 180 gallons you can see you'll need a minimum of 720 stems or the equivalent, and typically for starting a tank you want "fast growers" like hygrophilia difformis, egeria densa, etc. Luckily those are cheap plants. You should probably seek out other experienced hobbyists and talk to them about cycling a large tank, I am sure they would have advice and insights I don't have.

Check out Rex's guide on Cycling here:

Rex's Guide to Cycling your Planted Tank



> Banderbe,
> You have any links to the EI & PPS methods? I will not be setting up the tank for at least a month. I plan to use this time learn as much as I can and figure out how to layout my tank.


You can find sticky posts at the top of the Science of Fertilization forum on this website.

The user "Edward" is the PPS expert, and Tom Barr who no longer posts here is the creator, or at least the popularizer of the EI (Estimative Index) method.

Tom has a public post on his website detailing his EI method here:

The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits - Barr Report

You can pay a fee to join Tom's website and you can find him on the Aquatic Plant Digest mailing list found here:

Aquatic Plants Mailing List


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Wow,
It's gonna be that much of a algae problem if I plant only part of the tank? How does everybody else with a discus planted tank leave enough room for the fish to swim?


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Well, the stem plants typically only occupy the back third of the tank. Then you have middle and foreground plants.

Additionally, the stem plants are trimmed so they typically only get about three quarters of the tank's height and can even be kept shorter in a more bushy growth pattern.

It should be plenty of room for the fish, and besides that the fish typically swim amongst the plants. I know discus are particularly fond of swimming between many adjacent small trees in nature. A breeding setup I saw once had many vertical PVC pipes and the discus would swim between them.

I don't want to dissuade you from planted tanks, but even many hobbyists more experienced than I am (and there are many) would shy away from the challenge of a planted discus tank. It can be done! But it's difficult and I believe requires experience in the hobby of aquatic plants so that you don't end up with a big ugly mess on your hands.

On the Planted Tank website, a user named "scolley" has a planted discus tank. You should be able to find his thread on it which is many pages long, and he experienced a number of problems along his way including algae. The tank he has is 75 gallons.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Here's the thread Banderbe was talking about from pt: Kahuna's Revenge (30+ days away OK - NOT!) (56k!) - The Planted Tank Forum

It's a long read, but very interesting.


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

OMG, What a tank and thread!! I spent quite a bit of time reading it. I am truly inspired by his tank. I understand a planted discus tank would be quite an undertaking. But, if it's easy to do where the challenge and fun? I've always been a jump in with both feet type of guy. Thanks for the link Bert.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

I've found a 29 gallon tank to be plenty of a challenge.

If you really want challenge try growing some of the soft water species like L. pantanal, or from the genera Eriocaulon or Tonina.

I tried L. pantanal and after a brief stint of success watched the plants head south and ultimately die out.

Anyway best of luck, keep us posted.


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

banderbe,

I don't think I can grow the L. pantanal seeing how I have hard water here and don't plan on getting ro anytime soon. I will keep you guys updated.

Matt


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## TNguyen (Mar 20, 2005)

I vote for a planted Discus tank!!!! :-D Every tank is different. The rule of thumb on the ratio of stem plant can be dispute to combat algae. Just look at Jeff Senske discus tank. With the right parameter and with some TLC, it can be done. The choice of plants is limited due to the parameter of keeping discus that for sure. From what I gather, he wanted a simple planted tank design to showcase the Discus. And I agree it's a big undertaking for a beginner but I like the spirit! :-D This is just the beginning Matt. Hope you have more room for some more challenges. This green stuff is pretty addicting.

Cheers,
Thanh


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks Thanh!! 
I think I'll be going with some swords, anubis and maybe some java fern. From what Dan said I'll have to put in more plants in than I intended to have to start then I can remove a few of the extras once the tank gets settled in. I can't wait to get it started!!! It's like being a kid and waiting for christmas. 

Matt


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## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

banderbe said:


> To begin with, discus require temperatures of at least 83 degrees. The majority of plants don't do very well in those sorts of high temperatures, so right there you will be drastically limited in the plants you can keep. The ideal temperature range for plants is 72 to 75 degrees.


For as much as this seems to be the case, I will have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. I have kept my discus for quite some time now along with different kinds of plants, blyxa,wallichii,L. cuba,L.glandulosa none of which seem to mind the 82F temperature I keep the discus in. My nitrates are 10-15ppm and I have 2wpg of light. You can keep your nitrates at 10ppm without a great risk of bottoming out because lower light and shorter photoperiod gives you much more room for error. Plants grow slower which I consider a blessing and the discus is at peace. I do use pure RO water with small amount of Ca and Mg to get Gh up to 50ppm KH=0. 50% water change once a week. Obviously I am not talking about wild discus. Those guys are a little different story.


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

azfishguy,

Thanks for the input. I know its gonna be alot more work than just raising discus but I can't stop thinking about a planted discus tank. I just setup a 110 gallon tank to house my discus while I work on the 180. I can't wait to get started 

Matt


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## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

Good luck! IME I really don't find keeping discus with plants as something special only for the "chosen" ones. Yes the water is RO and I religiously change it and vacuum the gravel every week but I did this before I got discus. Feed them well with variety of foods, don't let nitrate go too high and they will be happy. Your plants too.


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