# What is this?



## 2ManyHobbies

I have had this for some time now. I have spread it around a bit. It grows/propagates very similar to a chain sword or a vallisnaria. The leaves are rather wide and stiff. Roots are also very broad, not very fine like some Eriocaulons. It does grow rather large- maybe 6" wide, 6" tall. The individual leaves can get 3/4" wide. Any ideas?


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## HeyPK

_Sagittaria platyphylla_


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## 2ManyHobbies

HeyPK said:


> _Sagittaria platyphylla_


Yeah- good thought. I have grown that before. The tips of this plant are pointed. For me the saggitaria had round ends, the leaves much longer, narrow, and much more flexible.


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## Cavan Allen

I don't think it's that. I still think it's a _Vallisneria_, but why it's so short, I don't know.


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## HeyPK

Is your plant growing emersed? I don't think you can grow Vallisneria emersed.


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## 2ManyHobbies

It is all growing submersed.


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## Zapins

I'm with Cavan on this one it looks like a Val to me.

The sag plants I have seen usually have horizontal lines along the length of the leaves almost like fractures.

Can you post a picture of the crown of the plant? Also where did it come from?


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## HeyPK

I am still holding out for Sag. Sag has thicker leaves especially at the base where there is some spongy tissue. Val has more prominent cross veins and thinner leaves. Val also has little teeth at the leaf edges, visible with a magnifying glass.


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## Lakeplants

I'm going to side with PK. The leaves look quite thick and the veins are very pronounced, both of which would be unusual for a Val.


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## asukawashere

Looking at the veining on the leaves - especially the new ones - I'd definitely think something from Alismataceae, but maybe not necessarily a _Sagittaria_. Sag platyphylla is certainly a common species to see in the hobby, but 6" would be a small maximum size for it...

If they've been propagating easily and you have a couple of them, try converting one and see what it looks like then  If it grows emersed, as PK mentioned, you can at least rule out _Vallisneria_.


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## miremonster

Vals have mostly tiny teeth on the leaf tip and the margin near the tip (seen with amplifier), Sag's don't have teeth. Often Vallisnerias differ from Sagittaria also by the venation in the tip: the lateral veins (the ones parallel to the midrib) bend to the midrib and join it shortly below the tip. In Sagittaria the lateral veins reach the tip or the margin near the tip. Could You make a macro photo of the leaf tip?
I've noticed that Vallisneria leaves are quite slimy when crushed.


2ManyHobbies said:


> I have grown that before. The tips of this plant are pointed. For me the saggitaria had round ends, the leaves much longer, narrow, and much more flexible.


At least here in Germany a plant is in the trade with the label "S. platyphylla" that actually belongs to the Sagittaria subulata complex. Quite long, ca. 1 cm wide leaves. Once I've flowered it in outdoor culture in shallow water, it had floating inflorescences and leaves with flexible petioles and floating blades. True S. platyphylla grows in shallow water as emergent plant with stiff petioles and upright inflorescences.
[edit] The "pseudo-S. platyphylla" has rather round ends, the submerged leaves of true S. platyhylla rather pointed tips. 
I agree with HeyPK that Your plant may be S. platyphylla.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Here are a few more pictures:










You can see the rather coarse root system and some of the baby plants that are coming off of it.










Get a rough size comparing to the wall outlet. I would say 8-10" across.










This is probably the best picture i can get of the center of the plant.

Good discussion so far. I picked it up from a local guys maybe 6 years ago. He is up in Nova Scotia right now. I will ask him to chime in.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Close up with a bit of photoshop to sharpen a bit.


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## Cavan Allen

Good shot. I'll go along with the others now. I wish I still had some. Much lost during replanting and reorganization.


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## HeyPK

I know a ditch near here where it grows. I have been thinking of getting a plant or two. I will get a picture today, if it stops raining.


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## 2ManyHobbies

So is the consensus moving towards Sagittaria platyphylla? To me it just looks different compared to the many pictures seen on Google.


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## Cavan Allen

Well, I hesitate to pin down any name based on what we have (and I think we all do). Could be. A proper specimen would be required for that.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Well, the plot thickens. 

I contacted the gentleman who gave it to me and apparently he collected it from White Bear Lake up here in the Twin Cities. Grows rather large and washes ashore after big storms. Turns reddish tint in bright sun. 

I might I have to contact some plant people up here and see if they know what it is.


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## Zapins

It does indeed! That maybe +1 for my val theory haha.


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## Lakeplants

2ManyHobbies said:


> Well, the plot thickens.
> 
> I contacted the gentleman who gave it to me and apparently he collected it from White Bear Lake up here in the Twin Cities. Grows rather large and washes ashore after big storms. Turns reddish tint in bright sun.
> 
> I might I have to contact some plant people up here and see if they know what it is.


Knowing that it's from White Bear Lake, I'm sticking with Sagittaria. The sterile, submersed rosettes of Sagittaria that grow commonly in sandy lakes up here can be uprooted fairly easily during storms because of their shallow water habitats that get pounded by waves. If it is a Sagittaria rosette, it would be a very robust one. Since you're in the Twin Cities, you could take the plant to the Bell Herbarium in St Paul to have someone look at it in person.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Well, well, well. A quick search of the latest plant survey of White Bear Lake: http://www.wblcd.org/docs/WBL_aquatic_plant_surveys_2009.pdf yielded some interesting information.

Page three lists all the plants observed. One Vallisnaria and one Sagittaria were listed. Since the Vallisnaria listed is Americana I think we should be able to eliminate that. As for the other a Sagittaria graminea is listed. A quick search does does point to a plant that looks quite similar. What do you think?


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## HeyPK

I noticed that the _Sagittaria_ is a rosette with the leaves coming out at all points of the compass, whereas, in _Vallisneria_ that I have seen, all the leaves come out opposite each other. I wonder if that is a significant difference that could be used to differentiate the two genera.


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## Cavan Allen

Zapins said:


> It does indeed! That maybe +1 for my val theory haha.


REAL _S. subulata_ can get reddish in good light, so it's not unheard of.


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## Zapins

Aww well it was still fun. Looks like it is a sag.


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## miremonster

Sagittaria in Flora of North America (FNA): http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=129016
Problem with Sagittaria graminea: apparently this name is or was used for quite many different North American Sags, in the aquarium trade and horticulture as well as in botany. Several taxa now treated as own species in FNA are traditionally treated as subtaxa of graminea, e.g. S. cristata (occurring i.a. in Minnesota).

Interesting:
-Sagittaria graminea in the FNA (with its 3 subspecies chapmanii, graminea, weatherbiana): no stolons and corms, but coarse rhizoms.
-Several other similar sags as S. cristata or S. platyphylla: rhizoms absent, stolons and corms present.
So it may be that the Sag from Bear Lake isn't S. graminea sensu FNA. 
"Sagittaria graminea" is known in the aquarium hobby, but probably also these plants are or were no true S. graminea.


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## HeyPK

I collected some plants that look the same from a ditch in the Jackson area. This is the only ditch I know of where I can find this plant. I will give the plants the bleach treatment and get them set up in one of my aquariums.


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## Lakeplants

2ManyHobbies said:


> Well, well, well. A quick search of the latest plant survey of White Bear Lake: http://www.wblcd.org/docs/WBL_aquatic_plant_surveys_2009.pdf yielded some interesting information.
> 
> Page three lists all the plants observed. One Vallisnaria and one Sagittaria were listed. Since the Vallisnaria listed is Americana I think we should be able to eliminate that. As for the other a Sagittaria graminea is listed. A quick search does does point to a plant that looks quite similar. What do you think?


Great idea to look for recent aquatic plant surveys from White Bear Lake. I would assume that only emergent Sagittaria individuals were identified to species, so I wouldn't doubt the S. graminea occurrence. However, S. cristata, S. rigida, and S. latifolia are all more common in the Upper Midwest, and often form abundant sterile rosette populations in shallow water. These typically are left as "Sagittaria sp." on aquatic plant surveys.

Having been involved in many aquatic plant surveys across Wisconsin, I'm more than a little disappointed in the nearly useless entries of "stringy pondweed", "buttercup", "bladderwort", and "naiads" on that aquatic plant survey table, considering how many species of each of these genera we have in the Upper Midwest. :-? Specific identification could potentially tell us a lot about the water quality and/or microhabitats within the lake.


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## 2ManyHobbies

I just heard from another local guy a bit south of here who is BIG into plants and he suggested the S. cristata. How do you differentiate between all of these plants?


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## 2ManyHobbies

Lakeplants said:


> Great idea to look for recent aquatic plant surveys from White Bear Lake. I would assume that only emergent Sagittaria individuals were identified to species, so I wouldn't doubt the S. graminea occurrence. However, S. cristata, S. rigida, and S. latifolia are all more common in the Upper Midwest, and often form abundant sterile rosette populations in shallow water. These typically are left as "Sagittaria sp." on aquatic plant surveys.


Thanks for the comment. The DNR up here appears to be pretty good.



Lakeplants said:


> Having been involved in many aquatic plant surveys across Wisconsin, I'm more than a little disappointed in the nearly useless entries of "stringy pondweed", "buttercup", "bladderwort", and "naiads" on that aquatic plant survey table, considering how many species of each of these genera we have in the Upper Midwest. :-? Specific identification could potentially tell us a lot about the water quality and/or microhabitats within the lake.


Yeah- I agree!


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## asukawashere

Some info and pics of S. cristata here..., dunno if that helps at all. Plant in the photos looks smaller and thinner, but there's always some degree of variation within a species and it may be a young specimen.

The illustration on USDA PLANTS looks a lot like your plant, though...


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## ddavila06

im not sure what that plant is but is crazy awesome! if you want to sell me a few let me know via pm please =) happy holydays everyone!!!


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## Zapins

I was just in a petco up by Hartford and I saw one of these plants for sale. It looks more like a sag when you see it in person.


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## miremonster

Lakeplants said:


> I would assume that only emergent Sagittaria individuals were identified to species, so I wouldn't doubt the S. graminea occurrence. However, S. cristata, S. rigida, and S. latifolia are all more common in the Upper Midwest, and often form abundant sterile rosette populations in shallow water. These typically are left as "Sagittaria sp." on aquatic plant surveys.


Yes, apparently always emergent plants with male flowers and also ripe fruits are needed. In the FNA key the ID characters are i.a. form and relative length of the filaments in male flowers, fruit head pedicels spreading or bending down, and presence or absence of runners + tubers.
2ManyHobbies' sag does have runners, that rules out Sagittaria graminea according to Flora of North America (efloras.org).

Btw., Sagittaria cristata is apparently also cultivated in Europe, I've ID'ed flowering and fruiting "Sagittaria platyphylla" from Botanical Garden Göttingen as S. cristata. Submerged leaves of these plants very broad, ca. 2 cm.


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## Lakeplants

2ManyHobbies said:


> I just heard from another local guy a bit south of here who is BIG into plants and he suggested the S. cristata. How do you differentiate between all of these plants?


As Miremonster said above, emergent vegetative and floral characteristics are needed to tell them apart, especially the characteristics of the filaments, pedicels, and male flowers.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Time to pull some out and put in the window sill to see if I can get it to flower!


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## HeyPK

The Sagittaria growing around here seems to be bigger. I have had it in my 29 gal. for 17 days, and it is getting huge. The leaves are about an inch across and the longest one is around 10 inches. I think the plants are going to get even larger.









Side view


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## miremonster

That should be Sagittaria graminea sensu Flora of North America:
http://www.floraofalabama.org/img/specimens/TROY/TROY000009864.jpg
http://www.floraofalabama.org/Plant.aspx?id=3794
Very narrow emersed leaves, coarse rhizoms, no runners, no tubers. I wonder how the submerged form of true graminea looks like. Probably all "graminea" in aquarium culture belong to other species.


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## 2ManyHobbies

miremonster said:


> That should be Sagittaria graminea sensu Flora of North America:
> http://www.floraofalabama.org/img/specimens/TROY/TROY000009864.jpg
> http://www.floraofalabama.org/Plant.aspx?id=3794
> Very narrow emersed leaves, coarse rhizoms, no runners, no tubers. I wonder how the submerged form of true graminea looks like. Probably all "graminea" in aquarium culture belong to other species.


What is 'That'?  Are you referring to mine or PK's?


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## miremonster

No, to the specimen in my link. Sorry, I was unclear.


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## 2ManyHobbies

Hey gang- a brief update. I sent this plant to the U of MN Herbarium for a ID and this is the reply I received: (published with her permission)

*The plant you sent is correctly Sagittaria graminea.* This differs from Sagittaria cristata in producing rhizomes and not stolons (S. cristata produces stolons not rhizomes; both were once considered the same species).* The material you sent clearly has rhizomes (both of these species develop these large underwater basal leaves).*

If at all possible, would you be able to collect another sample this summer from the lake, especially if you can find it in flower and/or fruit?* And even if not reproducing it would still be valuable -- we have no specimens of this in the herbarium from Minnesota.

As for cultivation, from what I understand they seem to require high light intensity and a water hardness of 5-15.* But I don't know if that encourages flowering or just maintains good vigorous growth.*

Followup from another email:

*The daily fertilizer and high lights definitely will contribute to the vigorous growth.

Actually the material you sent has some "baby plants" (so I might throw those in my backyard pond.* Runners look similar (stolons vs rhizomes) and rhizomes don't always have to be compacted (like iris or waterlily) but can have long internodes (like quack grass) - but the material you sent me clearly has rhizomes - there are tiny little scales (non-photosynthesizing leaves) indicating true rhizomes.

Best,
AFC
-- 
__________
Anita F. Cholewa, Ph.D.
Curator of the UM Herbarium (MIN)
** and Acting Curator of Lichens
J.F. Bell Museum of Natural History
*

What an excellent resource. I think I may have to work with her more in the future!


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## miremonster

2ManyHobbies, thank You for sharing! I've noticed Your last post only now, by searching for "Sagittaria graminea".

I don't feel comfortable questioning the conclusion of the experts, but:

- doesn't Your sag produce long, thin runners (stolons)? Is there occasionally a corm/tuber on the end of a runner?

- Well, rhizoms, corms and stolons are specialised forms of the same basal structure, the stem. But are scale-like, non-photosynthesizing leaves only on the nodes of Sagittaria rhizoms, not also on the nodes of stolons?

However I mean it would be interesting to check emersed flowering / fruiting plants of Your sagittaria.

Btw., regarding plants called "S. graminea" in the trade: there's an odd Sagittaria sold as pond plant in Europe, labeled S. graminea, leaves elliptic to lanceolate, and only with female (pistillate) flowers on the inflorescences, also on the uppermost whorls. It develops stolons and corms. I've tried it in my tank years ago, then it looked like Paul's submersed S. platyphylla. Unfortunately, because of lack of male flowers, the stamen characters important for ID aren't available.
I believe that Sagittaria, allegedly S. graminea subsp. weatherbiana, naturalized in Japan, is the same stuff:
http://flowers2.la.coocan.jp/Alismataceae/Sagittaria graminea weatherbiana.htm

There's also a cultivar Sagittaria graminea 'Crushed Ice' with white variegation on the emersed leaves (virus?), I suspect it doesn't belong to S. graminea sensu Flora of North America as well.

-Heiko


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## 2ManyHobbies

Thanks for sharing. I put a plant outside a few weeks back in a shallow pot with some rocks and soil. Retuning from vacation Friday I found this:



Seems to me that they sure look similar to what you are talking about. I think I am going to have to pull out my better camera and improve the shots. What do we need to help with the plant ID? In a few weeks I can pull the plant out and take a picture of the roots.


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## miremonster

2ManyHobbies said:


> Seems to me that they sure look similar to what you are talking about. I think I am going to have to pull out my better camera and improve the shots. What do we need to help with the plant ID? In a few weeks I can pull the plant out and take a picture of the roots.


Cool! - These first flowers are the female (pistillate) ones, the male (staminate) flowers will open on whorls above. And as mentioned, already the stamens have important ID characters. Again the FNA key: http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=129016
E.g. in Sagittaria graminea the filaments are shorter than the anthers, and in S. cristata longer than anthers. => I recommend to press a male flower when it's in bloom.

As You can see in the key, also the fruit and fruiting pedicel characters are important => don't pull out the plant to take a picture of the roots but try to get fruits. If male and female flowers are in bloom at the same time (unfortunately mostly not the case if there's only 1 inflorescence), try to pollinate the latter with a detached male flower.

Aren't there runners on the submerged plants in Your tank?


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## 2ManyHobbies

Ahh, nuts. My four year old just knocked over the pot and broke quite a few of the leaves including the flower spike. Hopefully it will send up a new one. Looked like the female flowers were starting to wilt before the male flowers started to bloom.

Stay tuned.


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