# One of my barbs KO ?!!



## edlut67 (Feb 26, 2007)

Yesterday evening when I feeded my fish a little bit something strange happened. Two of my tiger barbs seemed to panic, one of them jumped and ended up in my filter. The other one bumped hard against the wall of my tank and was hanging upside down for about a minute!!. Thought the guy was dying. 

After a minute or so, he seemed to shake his head and was just swimming again. He really looked like a boxer after a hard uppercut. 

KO for a while  ??? Can a fish go KO?


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## stepheus (Jun 13, 2006)

yeah! the fish will come back sometimes...but staying alive would be a problem if it is suffering from internal injuries? sorry to break the news to you. but some of my fish survives the ordeal... like a fighter! praying helps. lol


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

I'd treat the fish with medicated food in case of internal bacterial infection. Look for Medi-Gold or Jungle's antibacteria food (small pellets). Feed exclusively for two weeks.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

furballi said:


> I'd treat the fish with medicated food in case of internal bacterial infection. Look for Medi-Gold or Jungle's antibacteria food (small pellets). Feed exclusively for two weeks.


Just because he bumped his head?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Erratic swimming can be an early sign of internal bacterial infection. It doesn't hurt to treat the fish with antibiotic food. Use antibiotic food ONLY when you see abnormal behavior with any fish. It's much easier to treat when the fish are feeding.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

K20A2 said:


> Just because he bumped his head?


I agree, it's best not to do any medicating unless you have a positive diagnosis. It _can_ hurt something to medicate if you aren't positive you have a problem, so IMO, it's best to save it for if and when they really need it so it's more effective.

Edlut67, there are many reasons that fish will spook and ram the glass, including approaching the tank too fast, too small a tank, suddenly turning a room light on, etc., so I'm sure they'll be just fine if they pulled out of their stunned mode.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Feeding antibiotic food can make the fish resistant to future treatment. However, I have never seen or read any problem with dead *healthy* fish linked to antibiotic food. Again, the easiest way to treat any fish is to apply medication at the first sign of trouble, when the fish can still ingest the medication. Adding med to the water is not the most efficient way to treat a disease. Some med like Furanase will destroy the nitrifying bacteria in the tank.

If you wait for the fish to become restless, then the chance of a full recovery is usually less than 60%! Treating sick fish is heavily dependent on past experiences, since most aquarists do not have a lab in the home for biopsy.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

furballi said:


> Feeding antibiotic food can make the fish resistant to future treatment.


That's just one of the reasons not to do it, but it goes far beyond that.



furballi said:


> However, I have never seen or read any problem with dead *healthy* fish linked to antibiotic food. Again, the easiest way to treat any fish is to apply medication at the first sign of trouble, when the fish can still ingest the medication.


I have to disagree here. You don't have to see a dead fish to be doing damage to them or the tank. If you medicate a fish that doesn't feel well with the wrong med (and no definite diagnosis), you can do much more harm than good, so it's best to just keep them in clean water, and not have ailments that are out of the ordinary, which should be almost none.

The only place that you should need to use any meds or salt is in the q-tank (only when necessary and properly diagnosed), when your fish are first introduced to a tank and could possibly bring in unknown pathogens or other nasties. If you keep your main tanks well maintained, and the fish are properly quarantined, you should almost never see problems that need medications when you get them to the main tank.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

JanS said:


> That's just one of the reasons not to do it, but it goes far beyond that.
> 
> I have to disagree here. You don't have to see a dead fish to be doing damage to them or the tank. If you medicate a fish that doesn't feel well with the wrong med (and no definite diagnosis), you can do much more harm than good, so it's best to just keep them in clean water, and not have ailments that are out of the ordinary, which should be almost none.
> 
> The only place that you should need to use any meds or salt is in the q-tank (only when necessary and properly diagnosed), when your fish are first introduced to a tank and could possibly bring in unknown pathogens or other nasties. If you keep your main tanks well maintained, and the fish are properly quarantined, you should almost never see problems that need medications when you get them to the main tank.


How can a broad spectrum antibiotic food harm ANY fish that's feeding? Do you have any literature to support this claim? If the medication does not treat the disease, then the fish will get worse due to the natural proggession of the disease. Have you taken antibiotic? Have you switched to another antibiotic because the 1st antibiotic is ineffective?

It's not that easy to diagnose most internal infection without a biopsy lab! There are bad bacteria in the water column regardless of the condition of the tank. A healthy fish will be able to fight off these organisms. Unfortunately, as the fish gets older, its ability to fight-off these organisms will also decrease. For example, my 7 year old cardinal has had pop-eye and dropsy. No other fish in the tank are affected. Fortunately, I was able to cure this fish with early intervention by introducing medicated food to the community tank.

Again, the only downside to medicated food is a higher risk of developing antibiotic resistant germs.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> Again, the only downside to medicated food is a higher risk of developing antibiotic resistant germs.


Every treatment has it's side effects. Most are very minor but some will be more noticeable. I'm sure some of the doctors/med students on the site can come in here with lots of medical studies into the side effects of medications.

If you add a broad spectrum antibitoic treatment to a fish, and especially to it's gut, then you will change the bacterial population of the gut. This can have serious side-effects, but if a fish is sick then the side-effects should be outweighed by the benefits. If the fish isn't sick then what's the advantage?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

There are no perfect med with zero side-effect. That said, I've been treating fish for over 25 years. None of the healthy fish are negatively impacted by the medicated food (no death within 18 months after treatment). As for the sick fish, early ingestion of antibiotic food helps with future diagnostic. If the fish continue to feed after three days, then it is not sick, or is responding to the med. If the fish's health does not improve, then you still have time to try other remedies. 

The key is to start treatment at the 1st sign of trouble. Treatment is much more difficult when the fish stop feeding. No medication can wipe out 100% of the disease! The goal of medicine is to suppress the harmful bad guys. This permits the fish's natural immune to take over.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> The key is to start treatment at the 1st sign of trouble. Treatment is much more difficult when the fish stop feeding. No medication can wipe out 100% of the disease! The goal of medicine is to suppress the harmful bad guys. This permits the fish's natural immune to take over.


Totally agree with this sentiment but if you don't know what's wrong with your fish, if anything, then I prefer to simply make sure the fishes environment is as good as possible by doing a water change and keeping a close eye on the fish. 
At the first sign of an infection, or fungus, or whatever then I treat with the relevant medication. One thing to bear in mind is that if you have treated before you actually know exactly what's wrong and another problem is actually the cause then you may have wait to treat with the correct remedy while you remove the first, incorrect medication! Mixing two medications is fraught with potential hazards unless you really know what you are doing!

In principle I disagree with the prophylactic use of antibiotics. IMO they should be reserved for when they are needed or, when we do need them, they will be of no use. But that's a totally different debate for another place and time! :mrgreen:


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

it got stunned from crashing into the glass and then recovered. why give it something it doesn't need?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

There are three primary modes of infection...parasites, fungus, and bacterial. The parasites are often seen by the aquarist as foreign spots or worms on body. Early symptoms include darting, rapid swimming, spot on body, or stringy stuffs on fish. The fish will often respond well if treated at the first sign of foreign stuffs on body.

Fungus infection is similar to parasites, except for whitish-greyish/cotton-like stuffs on fish. The chance of survival is usually under 40% since most fish don't respond well to med after proper diagnostic.

Bacterial infection will often cause sluggish behavior. The fish may be hiding, not eating, or have swollen body, red spot, or red streaks on body. Other symptoms include swollen gills, torn fins, and cloudy eyes. It's best to treat internal/external bacterial infections when the fish is still feeding. Success rate is probably around 70%.

A broad spectrum antibiotic food can be very effective for many bacterial and fungus infections. If you see parasites on the fish, then isolate the fish and treat with Coppersafe or equivalent.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

this discussion about what to use for any particular fish disease is good, but totally not the point of this thread to begin with.


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## LindaC (Nov 7, 2005)

freydo said:


> it got stunned from crashing into the glass and then recovered. why give it something it doesn't need?


I totally agree!


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## edlut67 (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for all your feedback. 

After the crash he is looking very ok. He's back doing his thing as before eg. fighting/playing with the 5 other male-barbs to determine who's the number 1 barb in the tank, as well as chasing the women  

I didn't treat the barb with medicated food.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

glad to hear it recovered from it's near K.O


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Glad to hear he's back to normal now. 

I've had my Bala's ram the glass if I spook them, and it stuns them for a short time, but they've always pulled out of it with no problems.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

While I agree that pro-active treatment in certain cases does a lot of good and can seriously improve the overall health and vitality of fish, I don't believe this particular situation calls for a panel of antibiotics. The fish spooked and bonked himself. If he gave himself a WOUND, then treating might make sense. If he gave himself a gash, then yes, absolutely. But I would be more interested in finding out what is spooking them so badly and trying to remedy that situation before playing doctor.

I'm usually extremely cautious about treating medications unless in a dire circumstance. In my fish keeping experience through the years, chemical treatments are a double edged sword and can sometimes do more harm than good. Treating an entire tank can be dangerous and upset the biological balance of the system, not to mention harm fish or inverts that are not needing any treatment.

We don't give children antibiotics for skinning their knees, and for spooky fish that sometimes lose their bearings and ram into things, interfering with their body's natural coping mechanisms seems a little too extreme and jumping the gun. JMO


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

It's completely un-called for and also completely off the subect of the original post, but here's my two-bits worth.

I'm a physician and have the opportunity of observing antibiotics in action every day. When there is a clear diagnosis, the correct antibiotic can make a huge difference in outcomes. Usually this depends on a culture of the organism and testing of the particular bacteria with a wide variety of antibiotics in the lab to choose an effective one.

When it comes to fish, my approach is this - provide a healthy environment and let the cards fall where they will. Sick fish will either get better or die - I don't fret too much about it. I'm 100% convinced that I've done more harm than good in my previous attempts at medicating fish. I'll admit that I'm no vet and I have no particular training or experience in treating aquatic organisms.

One exception to my personal "rule" is to treat newly caught wild fish for parasites. This may be useful and is certainly done with success by many experienced importers. Most of the available fish medications make a great profit for those who sell them and don't actually result in much good.

Along similar lines, the great improvement in overall human health in the last 200 years is almost entierly due to immunizations, improvements in civil infrastructure (water systems, sewers, landfills), and better food preparation, storage, and inspection practices. The medical profession does our part, but the VAST majority of the credit goes to the civil engineers of the world. The same thing applies in our tanks - create a healthy envrionment and the critters will usually do quite well. There are problems, sure, but treating willy-nilly is more likley to do harm than good.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

It is impossible to maintain an aquarium in perfect health 24/7. Do you get sick? 

A healthy fish will be able to fight most disease in the tank. Yes, the bad stuffs are always in the tank, no matter how much you clean or how much water you change per day! Not all the fish in the aquarium have the same resistance to parasites and bacterial infections. Since they all live in the same closed-loop environment, a sick fish can quickly "contaminate" several other fish (due to the sharp rise in bacteria counts or ingestion of the sick fish's waste). 

By the time the sick fish stop eating, the disease may already take hold in the tank.

We drink water treated with chloramine. That's medicated water! Chicken, pig, and cow are treated with antibiotic. If you were accidentally stabbled with a dirty needle, would you take preventive medication to fight the HIV virus, or would you wait a few months to confirm the status of your health? Again, treating with antibiotic food DOES NOT kill healthy fish. Since most internal infections are gram-negative, the use of a wide-spectrum antibiotic food is good practice to ward-off some disease.

A best kept aquarium is still infinitely less healthy than an open-loop lake/stream harboring these tropical fish!


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

I agree with the points you are making.
However, in this specific thread, is treating the fish necessary? Probably not. He spooked and became disoriented. I've bonked my head pretty good and became dizzy. Granted, I don't live in a fragile close-box system, but that doesn't, IMO, equate the need for treatment for parasites. His bell was wrung.

If the fish had an continuing issue with being off balance and shows signs manifesting on their own, then yes, treatment is something to look into.

Maybe we should invent fish helmets.


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