# Plants keep dying



## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Hello im new to planted tanks. I have a 10, 20 and 55 gal plants.

My 10 and 20 are fine. Im having a horrible time with my 55

This is meant to be a low-tech setup so i do not want to dose co2.

So I have a 55gal with a 
finnex planted+ 48" light which sits about 18.5" from the substrate. Light is on for 9.5 hours per day.
I have mixed seachem flourite and eco-complete substrate with seachem tabs spread throughout the tank.
I am currently dosing 
5/8 TSB KNO3
1/16 TSB KH2PO41
1/8 TSB of K2SO4
1 TSB of MgSO
1/8 TSB of Plantex
Once a week
2 mL or Iron every other day except on the day of plantex

On the API test kit, my parameters are
Gh 7
Kh 4
Ph 7.4
Nitrate should be about 20. Haven't tested it today

This tank has been running for about 10 months now and since its started ive have nothing but trouble. Ill get plants and within a couple days the stems will turn to brown mush and fall apart and the plant will die. 
Ive tried no dosing, more dosing, moving the light up, different plants, fewer water changes. Nothing seems to help.

Most recently i bought water wisteria, temple narrow leaf, and Ludwigia Repens. The narrow leaf died within a couple days and the wisteria is barely holding on

Pic of my tank about a month after it was set up


Pic of my tank after everything died off. and when algae started to take over
about 1 week after this was taken i started the current dosing regime 


Pic of my tank 5 days ago. (note i planted these about a week ago. some had already died off)


Picture of my tank 2days ago. you can see how the plants are less dense as i just pulled out some of the dead


pic of my tank yesterday after a monthly 50% water change. 
[/URL

When i say the stem turns to mush. I took these yesterday. the plants had been in there for about a week.

Left is turning to mush. Right is firm and healthy 
[URL=http://s45.photobucket.com/user/Alex_Poland/media/20150320_191627_zpsnwc65zzs.jpg.html]

What it looks like before mush


What it looks like when you push it between your fingers


Plants that ive tried that died off. It should be noted that most of these were before i started dosing ferts.

Alternanthera reineckii 
Hygrophia salicifolia 
Cabomba aquatic
Cabomba aquatica
Bacopa monnieri
Ammania gracilis
Alternanthera reineckii
Corkscrew val plant
Crypt wendtii
And various species of Amazon Swords.

Please help!


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## serenityfate1 (Sep 4, 2014)

Are the plants that died, new plants that are just addes to the tank? If so they are probably just acclimating, old dies off then new growth.


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

They are new plants. But the issue is, the stem turns to mush and there's nothing left for new growth


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## THE V (Jul 3, 2009)

It actually sounds like you've picked up a pathogen. Only something bacterial or fungal could take down such a wide selection of plants so quickly. Can't really tell for sure without a microscope, selective media isolation, and a Koch's test. 

My guess would be fungal... something in the pythium family. 

Now what to do...

1. Stop adding plants for 6 months and see if you can wait it out. This sometimes works with obligate pathogens.

2. Disinfect everything and try again. I recommend a 10% bleach bath for 1 hour. This includes all of the filter parts. You probably shoud discard the substrate and start with new. Or you can try to disinfect it with bleach and baking (250F for 6-8 hours).


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## Mooner (Jun 9, 2006)

Alexp08 said:


> I am currently dosing
> 5/8 TSB KNO3
> 1/16 TSB KH2PO41
> 1/8 TSB of K2SO4
> ...


Hello,

Few clarifications please.

1. What do you mean for TSB?, Tablespoon or teaspoon?
2. Tap water or R/O?
3. WC/Maintenance schedule?
4. Are you seeing any new growth at all? or stalled out?
5. Any algae issues?

You stated that the other tanks are fine? Would you say those tanks are getting the same maintenance, photo period and dosing as this 55 gal?

Let us know...


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Mooner said:


> Hello,
> 
> Few clarifications please.
> 
> ...


1. Tablespoon
2. Tap water. Fill 5 gallon buckets and put in jungle start right. then dump the water into the tank
3. Before i was doing a 20-25% everyweek with once a month filter cleaning/carbon change. Most recently i was doing a once a month 50% water change. Thats only been done once
4. im seeing very little growth. I have alot of dwarf sag and one bunch grew a little bit. 
5. Yes. it started with the water going green, that went away. Then i got hair algae, that seemed to settle down and then i got green algae on the glass, that also has slowed down.

The other two tank are housing walmart lights, with most of the same plants. They are on the once a week 20% water change with once a month filter maintenance. They are using the same substrate. there photo period is much longer. They are on from 8am - 930pm

Where the 55 is 12-930pm. I was told the planted plus is a much stronger light which should be on for a shorter amount of time.


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

THE V said:


> It actually sounds like you've picked up a pathogen. Only something bacterial or fungal could take down such a wide selection of plants so quickly. Can't really tell for sure without a microscope, selective media isolation, and a Koch's test.
> 
> My guess would be fungal... something in the pythium family.
> 
> ...


I very much so hope you are wrong


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## mooncon (Oct 12, 2011)

Sounds like you are dosing a lot for not running C02 have you tried cutting way back to see what happens.Also you may not need to be dosing iron the csm has iron in.


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## Mooner (Jun 9, 2006)

Alexp08 said:


> 1. Tablespoon


This is too much for a 55 gallon tank, there are three teaspoon to one Tablespoon. A 20 gallon low tech dose would be 1/8tsp KNO3, 1/32tsp KH2PO4, 1/4tsp trace every week or two. Use about 2.5x this rate for the 55 gallon. Your KNO3 is almost 2 tsp weekly, should be a little over a ¼ tsp in comparison. The KH2PO4 is close. Plus the extra from the root tabs. Unless you know of a deficiency in Mg, I wouldn't add it. Also, there should be enough potassium in the KNO3 and KH2PO4, consider not using the K2SO4, again, unless you know of a deficiency. Remember, these are salts!!


Alexp08 said:


> 2. Tap water. Fill 5 gallon buckets and put in jungle start right. then dump the water into the tank


OK, I was wondering if you used R/O due to the K2SO4 and Mg


Alexp08 said:


> 3. Before i was doing a 20-25% everyweek with once a month filter cleaning/carbon change. Most recently i was doing a once a month 50% water change. Thats only been done once


I would air on the side of less water changes unless there is a specific reason, ie algae or rescaping. 1,2 or 3 month intervals, some, including me, have gone much longer. The filter will go much longer than a month and is most important concerning your fish load. The plants and the filter work quickly to convert ammonia to nitrate, which helps negate algae. I usually clean the filter when the flow starts to reduce. Consider not using the carbon, it's working against your ferts.


Alexp08 said:


> 4. im seeing very little growth. I have alot of dwarf sag and one bunch grew a little bit.


The reason I asked. Stagnant growth is a good indicator something is off. You should see steady, constant, slow growth on most plants. There's always a stubborn plant. Consider adjusting your dosing regime.


Alexp08 said:


> 5. Yes. it started with the water going green, that went away. Then i got hair algae, that seemed to settle down and then i got green algae on the glass, that also has slowed down.


The other reason I asked. Algae is another indicator the tank is unbalanced. The algae and the stagnant growth both point to this unbalance.


Alexp08 said:


> The other two tank are housing walmart lights, with most of the same plants. They are on the once a week 20% water change with once a month filter maintenance. They are using the same substrate. there photo period is much longer. They are on from 8am - 930pm


That is a good substrate with a high CEC value. I use Flourite as well. At 10 months, this tank should be really going by now. There has been plenty of time for the substrate to acclimate. Also, don't deep vac the substrate, if at all.


Alexp08 said:


> Where the 55 is 12-930pm. I was told the planted plus is a much stronger light which should be on for a shorter amount of time.


Shorten the photo period to 6 hours. Then slowly, as you see growth and the algae stays at bay, lengthen in one hour increments without going over 10 hours. You should find the sweet spot between 8-10 hours. If a large algae outbreak creeps up, clean tank thoroughly, do a 50% WC and go back one hour.

Good Luck!!


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Okay im sorry. I did mean teaspoons. Lapse of mental functioning.

Ive never heard of doing less water changes. Ill try it and see what happens! 

Any other ideas to get me back on track quickly?


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## Mooner (Jun 9, 2006)

http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/

Good read here


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

I did read that before and i see where i can make some changes. Im not sure why my plants die so fast thought.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Alexp08 said:


> I was told the planted plus is a much stronger light which should be on for a shorter amount of time.


I think this is your problem. I don't know the light, but if it's a strong light than turning it on shorter doesn't make the light less bright. Duration and intensity are two very different things. For example, 10 min of direct sunlight on my tank will give me algae. 10 hours of 1 t5 bulb doesn't. 
When intensity increases you need more CO2. In a non-CO2 tank, a lot of light is always trouble. Turning it on for only 5 hours a day isn't going to solve this! Try minimizing the _amount_ of light. Raise the fixture or use mosquito gaze between the lights and tank or anything.


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Yo-han said:


> I think this is your problem. I don't know the light, but if it's a strong light than turning it on shorter doesn't make the light less bright. Duration and intensity are two very different things. For example, 10 min of direct sunlight on my tank will give me algae. 10 hours of 1 t5 bulb doesn't.
> When intensity increases you need more CO2. In a non-CO2 tank, a lot of light is always trouble. Turning it on for only 5 hours a day isn't going to solve this! Try minimizing the _amount_ of light. Raise the fixture or use mosquito gaze between the lights and tank or anything.


Well i cannot verify this. Other have told me its simply not enough light. I havnt ran into anyone using the light to say either way.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

I don't know how experienced you are, so let me explain it in a way like you know nothing (sorry if you do).

In every aquarium, plant growth is limited by 1 thing. This could be a nutrient, for example iron, phosphate or even CO2, but this also could be light, or even temperature. In a non-CO2 EI tank, all nutrients except CO2 are ruled out. So only three things can limit plant growth: CO2, light, temperature. With fish in there I assume you heat the tank so temperature is ruled out, leaves you with two option...

In any aquarium, when a nutrient is limited plants grow different. Plants change color or shape of the leafs and in most cases algae takes over. This depends on which nutrient is missing. Is iron missing, yellow tips and ussually green algae. Nitrate mising, yellow old leaves and more likely to get BGA. Phosphate is a good nutrient to keep low in a low tech tank because is slows growth with only little algae (GSA) but not major problems.

In your case it is either light or CO2 that limits your plant. When lights limit plants, everything goes slow, but zero algae! In the worst case (severe light deficiency) plants start dying, but for a lot of plants even ambient light is enough. So leaves you with CO2... this one gives all sort of algae, plants start disintegrating etc. Sounds a lot like your problem.

The solution could either be: 1. get a CO2 unit, or 2. Make something else the limiting factor (when you read this well, you'll see which option I recommend)

Good luck!



Alexp08 said:


> Well i cannot verify this. Other have told me its simply not enough light. I havnt ran into anyone using the light to say either way.


Seems like quite an American way of thinking, more is better!:hail:


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Well i do not want to inject co2 so should i look at a different light alltogether?


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

You decide, but somehow you need to limit the amount of light. Raise it... Use mosquito gaze between the tank and lights or change it. I would try 1 of the first two options first to check whether I'm right before buying something new


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Yo-han said:


> You decide, but somehow you need to limit the amount of light. Raise it... Use mosquito gaze between the tank and lights or change it. I would try 1 of the first two options first to check whether I'm right before buying something new


Is there a certain color to use? how much should i use? how much will it lower the par? do i just wrap it around the light or do i have to drape it over the top of the tank, or does it not matter?


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## sushant_sagar (Mar 13, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> Okay im sorry. I did mean teaspoons. Lapse of mental functioning.
> 
> Ive never heard of doing less water changes. Ill try it and see what happens!
> 
> Any other ideas to get me back on track quickly?


I guess EI method of dosing suggests 50% weekly water change for a food reason. Less water changes will result in gradual increase in alkalinity and increased tonicity ( this would be like placing your plants in brakish conditions ) most of plants will not fare well in these conditions and may die off


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## Alexp08 (Jan 5, 2015)

Okay well i went ahead about bought a new light. I bought a shoplight from Lowes. It is a 48" 2 bulb T8 fixture w/ white reflector. Its running 1 6500k and 1 8000k bulbs. Is this too much or adequate?


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## Silvering (Jun 10, 2011)

I have actually run a 55 with a 2x T-8 fixture with a great deal of success. Not sure on the color temperature of the lights I was using, usually a special "plant" bulb from the pet shop and a cool daylight bulb. I actually replaced it recently with a Finnex Stingray - because I figured the Planted+ light would be too much for my hands-off habits!

Your thread reminds me of my own recent experience with fish medication killing off my plants, but that was a simple fix: add carbon to the filter. Things are finally getting back on track but it's taken a few months to really see improvement, so remember to be patient with living things.


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