# Where to start!



## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

Let's see. I have a 30 gallon tank. 13" high x 18" deep x 36" long. What is apparently known as a breeder tank (I don't really know if that's true) After seeing all these aquascapes on this site, I'm inspired. My tank is dry now. Haven't had it set up in years. I prefer under gravel filtration for no particular reason and fear a planted tank may not be successful?? I'm also worried about the fact that my aquarium is only 13" high.
I would welcome and love any input from anybody. I know my tank is not going to be any Takashi Amano prize winner but, I would dare to strive to be close lol.
Thank you in advance.


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

This site has killer info. check out the sticky's and they will put you on track


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks for the reply NowMed. Stupid ? for ya. What are the stickys lol? I see them on the threads but don't know what they are exactly


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## dj2606 (Oct 15, 2008)

Get a canister filter. Under gravel filtration systems are not good for planted aquariums.

Nothing to fear with planted tanks.
If you have sufficient lighting, Co2, and fertilizer. There should be no problem in achieving your goals.

To start i recommend reading all you can on what planted tanks require
http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/12/beginners-guide-to-planted-aquarium.html
http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/01/taking-first-steps-towards-planted.html
http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/04/substrates-for-planted-aquarium.html
http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/11/10-items-planted-aquarium-keeper-cant.html

Then start planning your hardscape. Keep it simple. I noticed you mentioned Takashi Amano, he does nature style aquariums. So find some rocks and arrange them so it replicates a natural scene found in nature. Then choose your plants that will suite your needs in replicating this scene, keeping in mind how much lighting you have available to provide them.

Make sure you take your time picking your equipment, and learn all you can about different needs of the plants.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

If you go to the home page you will find different forums listed. If you click on a forum you will see a few different thread at the top labeled "sticky". These thread share general info that has been recognized as needed or good info. on a particular subject.

Go to the new to aquarium forum. You can click below...
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-planted-aquariums/

at the top you will see the sticky about how to start....

About your tank being 13". That's about how deep 10g tanks are. They are doable. You might need to think in terms of small leafed plants. You can do a nice scape with that. It'll kinda look like a 55g but shrunk!


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Thank you so much for the extremely valuable information. Truly a wealth of info at this stage of the game for me. Thanks again_​Crap! Sorry dj2606. I ment to direct this reply to you. What a virgin lol.


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Thanks for the clarification texgal_

Tex Gal said:


> If you go to the home page you will find different forums listed. If you click on a forum you will see a few different thread at the top labeled "sticky". These thread share general info that has been recognized as needed or good info. on a particular subject.





Tex Gal said:


> Go to the new to aquarium forum. You can click below...
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-planted-aquariums/
> 
> at the top you will see the sticky about how to start....
> ...


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## Danger69 (Nov 26, 2006)

Don't mean to thread jack. But my question seems to be in line with this topic. I have a 25 gallon tank that has plants and fishes. But now those fishes (swordtail & fancy guppy) are breeding like crazy. So I have to put them somewhere. I have an extra 6 gallon tank that I am now cycling. And sorry I never did a test on my tank. I know I should but what I have been doing is when I change/add water to my tank I use seachem prime and a ph buffer. Is this what everyone is doing or am I missing a step? From my understanding some people have more alkyline water they do something to fix the problem. Is that step needed?


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Danger69 said:


> Don't mean to thread jack. But my question seems to be in line with this topic. I have a 25 gallon tank that has plants and fishes. But now those fishes (swordtail & fancy guppy) are breeding like crazy. So I have to put them somewhere. I have an extra 6 gallon tank that I am now cycling. And sorry I never did a test on my tank. I know I should but what I have been doing is when I change/add water to my tank I use seachem prime and a ph buffer. Is this what everyone is doing or am I missing a step? From my understanding some people have more alkyline water they do something to fix the problem. Is that step needed?


I'm not sure what you mean by using a ph buffer. Is your water way out of line? Most people use the water from the tap unless it extremely hard or acidic. Adding chemicals usually causes a yoyo affect which is much harder, even deadly sometimes, on your fish. It's best to just slowly acclimate the fish to your water and then you can do water changes with no issues. You do need to keep using the Prime as it is for chlorine and chloramines.

My pH is around 6 with the addition of CO2 and I do nothing to try to get it higher. Fish and plants are fine.


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_I was checking out cannister filters at my local aquarium store. I'm wondering if there's a particular one that is better for both plants and fish. For example, the eheim or fluval etc. Are there inter-changable filter mediums that are more appropriate for the combination of fish and plants. For example; if I buy the eheim which comes with whatever filter mediums it comes with. Can, or should I purchase (seperately) another type of medium? Or, is there a combination of filters (2 filters) that works better. I see a lot of people are using at least 2 different filters_


dj2606 said:


> Get a canister filter. Under gravel filtration systems are not good for planted aquariums.





dj2606 said:


> Nothing to fear with planted tanks.
> If you have sufficient lighting, Co2, and fertilizer. There should be no problem in achieving your goals.
> 
> To start i recommend reading all you can on what planted tanks require
> ...


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I have always used the media that comes with the filter. I figure they have engineered it to work best that way. 

I do know that some people take out the sponges in the Rena's. They say it clogs to fast. They replace it with the bio rings and such. I haven't read of people changing the Ehiem stuff too much. I think mostly, the only time you put different things in your filters is if you are having an issue. You might add Purigen or amino -carb or something like that. These are issue specific.


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Thank you Tex Gal. Can you or anybody tell me what a bubble counter is(let me guess....it's something that counts bubbles lol) What is it's function and is it beneficial to a planted tank. And since you are a moderator. How do I respond to an individual who has responded to a thread when the thread is possibley old. There's no date to indicate the threads age. I tried sending a private message._


Tex Gal said:


> I have always used the media that comes with the filter. I figure they have engineered it to work best that way.





Tex Gal said:


> I do know that some people take out the sponges in the Rena's. They say it clogs to fast. They replace it with the bio rings and such. I haven't read of people changing the Ehiem stuff too much. I think mostly, the only time you put different things in your filters is if you are having an issue. You might add Purigen or amino -carb or something like that. These are issue specific.


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

Danger69 said:


> Don't mean to thread jack. But my question seems to be in line with this topic. I have a 25 gallon tank that has plants and fishes. But now those fishes (swordtail & fancy guppy) are breeding like crazy. So I have to put them somewhere. I have an extra 6 gallon tank that I am now cycling. And sorry I never did a test on my tank. I know I should but what I have been doing is when I change/add water to my tank I use seachem prime and a ph buffer. Is this what everyone is doing or am I missing a step? From my understanding some people have more alkyline water they do something to fix the problem. Is that step needed?





Tex Gal said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by using a ph buffer. Is your water way out of line? Most people use the water from the tap unless it extremely hard or acidic. Adding chemicals usually causes a yoyo affect which is much harder, even deadly sometimes, on your fish. It's best to just slowly acclimate the fish to your water and then you can do water changes with no issues. You do need to keep using the Prime as it is for chlorine and chloramines.
> 
> My pH is around 6 with the addition of CO2 and I do nothing to try to get it higher. Fish and plants are fine.


I think your talking about using sodium bicarb as a buffer, to buff the acid and lower the pH. This is only used in extreme circumstances, and not really used for your weekly water change.

What is the pH of your tap water?


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## Danger69 (Nov 26, 2006)

PH out of the tap is 9.0.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Danger69 said:


> PH out of the tap is 9.0.


You might want to try mixing your tap water with R/O water or distilled water. ADA Aquasoil also brings down pH as does peat in your filter or under your substrate. This is a slow process and if you did this I think you might need to do multiple small water changes several times a week, instead of a large one once a week.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

jonzzee said:


> _Thank you Tex Gal. Can you or anybody tell me what a bubble counter is(let me guess....it's something that counts bubbles lol) What is it's function and is it beneficial to a planted tank.
> 
> And since you are a moderator. How do I respond to an individual who has responded to a thread when the thread is possibly old. There's no date to indicate the threads age. I tried sending a private message._​


A bubble counter is hooked up to your CO2 system. It's used with a needle valve. The needle valve is turned to increase or decrease the CO2 gas entering your line. It lets you see how much gas is going into your tank. You can increase the number of bubbles, via a needle valve, which increases the gas going into your tank. There is a lot of variance as to what size bubble, what liquid is it traveling through, etc. The trick is to learn your system. That way you know about how much CO2 to dial in.

No matter how old the thread is you submit a reply the same. It's possible that person that you were answering doesn't check APC regularly anymore and has moved on. That would explain why they aren't answering your pms. It's odd that you don't find a date. All posts I have seen are dated.


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

30 G tank ... I would go with the R/O.

Did you try what Tex Gal said and turn up your C02? Whats the new pH lookin like?


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey... check out this artical.. might help you alittle.

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/plant_tank_how_to.html


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Thank you so much Tex Gal. Valuable info for sure. Oh man....what a dumb $%# I see the the date now geez! That person did respond. I t just took a while. Thanks._


Tex Gal said:


> A bubble counter is hooked up to your CO2 system. It's used with a needle valve. The needle valve is turned to increase or decrease the CO2 gas entering your line. It lets you see how much gas is going into your tank. You can increase the number of bubbles, via a needle valve, which increases the gas going into your tank. There is a lot of variance as to what size bubble, what liquid is it traveling through, etc. The trick is to learn your system. That way you know about how much CO2 to dial in.





Tex Gal said:


> No matter how old the thread is you submit a reply the same. It's possible that person that you were answering doesn't check APC regularly anymore and has moved on. That would explain why they aren't answering your pms. It's odd that you don't find a date. All posts I have seen are dated.


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

Awesome info my friend. Thank you so much. I assume by r/o you are talking about reverse osmosis?. I don't have my tank set up yet. I'm trying to get as much info as I can. I don't want to through together a tank with some real pretty fake plants. They have come a long way. I want to make my own piece of under water heaven if you know what I mean lol. By the way. That clip you gave me was just excellent not to mention inspiring. Thanks again


NowMed said:


> 30 G tank ... I would go with the R/O.
> 
> Did you try what Tex Gal said and turn up your C02? Whats the new pH lookin like?


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

jonzzee said:


> Awesome info my friend. Thank you so much. I assume by r/o you are talking about reverse osmosis?. I don't have my tank set up yet. I'm trying to get as much info as I can. I don't want to through together a tank with some real pretty fake plants. They have come a long way. I want to make my own piece of under water heaven if you know what I mean lol. By the way. That clip you gave me was just excellent not to mention inspiring. Thanks again


HA!  I know where your comming from. Cant wait to see what you decide. The reverse osmosis is a awesome choice or you can just give it a go with the water you have and see what happens, it may work out well if all your other conditions are right. :thumbsup:


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Yeah. Thanks NowMed. I don't want to be mundane. I want this aquascape to be something me and my three kids can really appreciate from a viewing perspective and a sense of pride of accomplishment. Do you know what I mean? I have a (what turns out to be) 36 gallon tank. If you do the math.(Originally I thought my tank was 30 gallon) 36"x18"13". I'm thinking about using a black substrate (Seachem with flourite, A Eheim cannister filter (2213 or ecco comfort 2234) CO2(5lb) with a bubble counter, Hydor koralia circulation pump. Plants....well I have a few in mind based on other scapes I've seen. I don't want to duplicate anybody elses vision but, for the first scape I will steal some ideas because they are all so good. I'm a little lost on the subject of lighting though. More research here_


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## dj2606 (Oct 15, 2008)

It sounds like your are taking your time and learning. #1 mistake is jumping in, so you are doing very well my friend. Lighting, mmmh, following the wpg (watts per gallon rule [ gallons of tank/wattage of lighting=wpg]) you need roughly 108 watts for 3 wpg, which will allow you to plant almost anything your heart desires.

Good lighting:
http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...ght36?&query=coralife+f/w&queryType=0&offset=

I would say 3 of these will be more than enough. This part is very important, when initially setting up the tank do NOT use all 3 units all day. What I mean is this, in an 8 hour photo period have 2 units on for the full time and have 1 only on for 2-4 hours of photo period. This will give your aquarium to adjust to everything and reduce probability of an algae bloom (which is very high on newly setup aquariums).

Next, great choice in getting pressurized Co2 at the start. How do you plan injecting into tank?

Lastly, what are your plans for fertilizing?


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Hey dj2606. Good to hear from you again. Do you live near Whitby, Ontario? That's where I buy my stuff. Anyway, thanks for the lighting tips. As far as the CO2 goes, I was going to buy the Milwaukee Instruments gauges with the solenoid and bubble counter(also from Al's). I'm getting the CO2 from Praxair though because one of the guys working on one of the tanks in the store said that they could get me a cylinder for $300.00. I almost made a filthy deposit into my underwear lol. Praxair sells 'em for $125.00 full. No brainer there. Fertilizing is one of the next things I need to look into which will probably mean I need to choose my plants soon. I have a list of plants I like but' need to research some more._


dj2606 said:


> It sounds like your are taking your time and learning. #1 mistake is jumping in, so you are doing very well my friend. Lighting, mmmh, following the wpg (watts per gallon rule [ gallons of tank/wattage of lighting=wpg]) you need roughly 108 watts for 3 wpg, which will allow you to plant almost anything your heart desires.





dj2606 said:


> Good lighting:
> http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...ght36?&query=coralife+f/w&queryType=0&offset=
> 
> I would say 3 of these will be more than enough. This part is very important, when initially setting up the tank do NOT use all 3 units all day. What I mean is this, in an 8 hour photo period have 2 units on for the full time and have 1 only on for 2-4 hours of photo period. This will give your aquarium to adjust to everything and reduce probability of an algae bloom (which is very high on newly setup aquariums).
> ...


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Crap!. What a bone head lol. I see the american flag on your Big Al's site. I just checked the price on those lights here and it's double. I was thinking, what the hell and rechecked the link you gave me and saw that it was American. I like your price better lol. $45.00 for you and $90.00 for me._


dj2606 said:


> It sounds like your are taking your time and learning. #1 mistake is jumping in, so you are doing very well my friend. Lighting, mmmh, following the wpg (watts per gallon rule [ gallons of tank/wattage of lighting=wpg]) you need roughly 108 watts for 3 wpg, which will allow you to plant almost anything your heart desires.





dj2606 said:


> Good lighting:
> http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...ght36?&query=coralife+f/w&queryType=0&offset=
> 
> I would say 3 of these will be more than enough. This part is very important, when initially setting up the tank do NOT use all 3 units all day. What I mean is this, in an 8 hour photo period have 2 units on for the full time and have 1 only on for 2-4 hours of photo period. This will give your aquarium to adjust to everything and reduce probability of an algae bloom (which is very high on newly setup aquariums).
> ...


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## dj2606 (Oct 15, 2008)

$300 OUCH...... try this
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2/C5.shtml
Isn't filled but should only cost $15-20 at a local welding supply store. Which is still better than the $125.

Also I recommend using glass diffusers (http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/co2-diffusers/diffuser-3000.html) as means to inject into the tank. If you have good flow in your tank you will see Co2 everywhere. I usually have my filter output a spray bar stretching the length of the tank. Then install the diffuser below a power head along the back wall also so the Co2 is moved everywhere. Some say reactors are a better means of injecting Co2 but in my experience they only collect co2 in the chamber. But I guess different strokes for different folks.

I would contact Big Al's and say that you found the light for $45 and see what they say. Guaranteed lowest prices is what they say so hold them to it.

I'm located in Virginia (USA)


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_Thanks so much but, I just called to see how that would cost to ship it to me and it would be an additional $52.00. $108.00 plus taxes and it is empty. I can get a 5lb here full for $125.00. They charge 40.00 to fill here but, like I said this $125.00 cylinder comes full. Thank you very much again_


dj2606 said:


> $300 OUCH...... try this





dj2606 said:


> http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2/C5.shtml
> Isn't filled but should only cost $15-20 at a local welding supply store. Which is still better than the $125.
> 
> Also I recommend using glass diffusers (http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/co2-diffusers/diffuser-3000.html) as means to inject into the tank. If you have good flow in your tank you will see Co2 everywhere. I usually have my filter output a spray bar stretching the length of the tank. Then install the diffuser below a power head along the back wall also so the Co2 is moved everywhere. Some say reactors are a better means of injecting Co2 but in my experience they only collect co2 in the chamber. But I guess different strokes for different folks.
> ...


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## beaucon (Mar 14, 2006)

Get the Eheim 2213. You won't be sorry. I waited for too long to get one. Don't use the activated carbon disk that comes with it. That will suck up all the nutrients. You won't need more filter than that.


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

Eheim is a good way to go :thumbsup:, i have an eheim 2336(i think might be a 2238 ) for a 55g; and it is a quality filter, it is well build and works perfect.

Jonzee"I'm thinking about using a black substrate (Seachem with flourite, A Eheim cannister filter (2213 or ecco comfort 2234) CO2(5lb) with a bubble counter, Hydor koralia circulation pump." 

sounds like a sweet set up .. might want to add some temp. control too ... 

for me the hard part is picking your hardscape.... man o man ...


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## jonzzee (Feb 21, 2009)

_In regards to picking out your hard scape, tell me about it lol. I want to make sure I use the right stuff. Quality stuff and yet I really need to watch how much I'm spending. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be using Eheim. I've heard nothing negative about their products. I'm sure about the substrate and using CO2. I'm having a more difficult time trying to decide what plants I'm going to use. I'm probably just over-thinking (try telling that to my wife lol) I should just start and sort out the details after. I haven't even thought about fish yet, that can wait. I have cleaned and prepared my tank and I just need to take the next step. By the way. How relevant is it to not have your tank in front of an exterior wall or window? My tank is going in the basement (finished basement) and the only practical place to put it is on the exterior wall which is under a window. The window is above the tank and not right in front of it._


NowMed said:


> Eheim is a good way to go :thumbsup:, i have an eheim 2336(i think might be a 2238 ) for a 55g; and it is a quality filter, it is well build and works perfect.





NowMed said:


> Jonzee"I'm thinking about using a black substrate (Seachem with flourite, A Eheim cannister filter (2213 or ecco comfort 2234) CO2(5lb) with a bubble counter, Hydor koralia circulation pump."
> 
> sounds like a sweet set up .. might want to add some temp. control too ...
> 
> for me the hard part is picking your hardscape.... man o man ...


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