# Need advise, setting up my second 20g long, this time for planting.



## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Okay, so my first tank was a 10 gallon tank I got from a friend, probably 4-5 years ago now. My upgrade was a 20 gallon long, and I had a few fish in it ever since then. I bought some Java fern, followed by two clown loaches to get rid of the snails the plants brought with them. I also bought two groumies...the one clown loach died, and one of the groumies dies by tormenting from the other groumie. So for a while my tank has had just a groumie, a clown loach, a piece of driftwood, and some Java Fern.

The Jave Fern was actually doing pretty good. No CO2, no ferts, just a twin bulb T12 two foot shop light over the tank hung by a 2x4 that sat on the edge of the tank. Not pretty, but it was cheap and it worked, 2W/gal. But then things got bad, I didn't do regular maintenance, and a couple times you could barely see in the front do to algae growth on the front glass before I did a cleaning. During the worst period of non-maintenance most of the Java Fern died, and now I have only two small plants that aren't doing very good anymore. I believe my water is still way off, but I'll have to do another PWC tomorrow and wait for my new test kit to come.

Well, recently, my girlfriend wanted more fish. So we went to Petsmart, and ended up with 4 Cardinal Tetras, 2 Hachet Tetras, and some plant attached to a Lava Rock cause I wanted another, and it was on sale, and one of the few, true plants they have. When I was young, before I kept fish, but my sister did, I remember a display they had for plants, with some bright overhead lights to keep the plants alive. Apparently that was too much work, cause they took that down, and now they usually have only one true aquatic plant, stuffed in a fish tank with no lighting, and have a display of "aquatic plants" sold in disposable plastic aquariums...yeah, right, like those are real aquatic plants. But I'm off track. So we got the fish, and stuck my Groumie in this tiny 1 gallon tank (I know, horrible!). Well, as soon is he is in there, we (my girlfriend and I), said what are we thinking, he can't go in there. So back to Petsmart, and another 20 gallon tank, another undergravel filter, and some gravel. I ordered another 100W Fluval E-Series heater, as my other one has worked great for over two years now.

So that's were I stand. The Groumie will get out of his "cage" and go into the empty tank tonight as soon as I get home and the water can heat up.

Now I want to get some plants. And this is why I'm here, now. I preferably want plants for both tanks. The established tank I don't want to disturb at this point, only add plants too it, so what's good for a undergravel filter tank? Because of the water circulation from the undergravel filter (is there an abbreviation for that?), I did some searching and found this, Seachem Flourish Excel. Will this work for a tank with a undergravel filter? Other advice? The tank has pea sized rounded gravel, a moderate chunk of driftwood, six fish, two not-so-well Java Ferns and a plant I can't remember the name of. Lighting is two 24" T12 bulbs, one a GE daylight bulb, and a GE Plant & Aquarium bulb.

Now, the second tank is where I need your advice the most. It's empty, besides an undergravel filter, 25 lbs of small, non-rounded aquarium rock, and (tonight, until I decide what to do) a 100W heater and one, 3" Groumie. No light, no lid (I'm a DIY guy and will have a piece of glass cut for me at the hardware store), no plants. Before I get further, I need (and please err on the cheap side, I will spend money if I have too, but I need new tires for my motorcycle in the next couple months . I am also more of a DIY guy if that saves money and works the same.):

Filter: Stay with undergravel, or remove and get something else?
Substrate: Ties with first item, I don't assume I would change it unless I get rid of the undergravel filter?
Lighting: I was thinking DIY CFL, unless other is preferred. Bulb choices?
Plants: What sort of plants are easy to start with (besides Java Fern, which I proved is easy to take care of)and fit vertically into a 20g long?
Ferts?
Anything else?

Once I get at least one of these setup, and plants growing good, I'd like to start planning and slowly buying towards a 55g planted tank. For this I imagine a DIY sump-style filter, with the heater there, a DIY overflow style water return, and possibly a fully automatic CO2 system, which is another reason to keep the 20g tanks relatively cheap.  I'd like to go bigger, but I have concerns (possibly misplaced) that much bigger then a 55g tank and it may end up in the apartment below me. 

Sorry if it's a little long, any advise is appreciated as I get back into this hobby. If requested, pics will be provided of my pitiful tanks as they stand, and the progress as I work to making them better!


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Have a good read through the El Natural forum, especially the stickies at the top. 

I have heard of undergravel filters (UGF) working with plants, but it did not work when I did it. 

I would suggest the Aquaclear product line of filters, and a plant-specific type of substrate if you want plants that root in the substrate. There are many options here, but one of the least expensive (especially if your goal is a larger tank) is a product originally made for baseball diamonds. Turface is the name of one of these. It is available through John Deere, a company that provides a wide range of material to landscapers and many other fields. A single 50 pound bag will be enough to 'scape all 3 tanks (10, 20 long and 55 gallons)

Lighting: CFL work just fine for small planted tanks (such as you have at the moment). Over a 20 long, I would use 2 drop lights or a long fixture so the lights are spread out as equally as possible. Tanks with a smaller surface area (10 gallon or standard 20) might be OK with a single drop light, if the bulb is high enough watts. 2 fixtures allows you the option of more than one type of bulb, though. Minimum 2 watts per gallon. I am not sure this option would work with a 55, though. These tanks are pretty tall, and would probably be better with T-8 at least, or even T-5 lighting with a good reflector. 

Gouramis can be quite aggressive. Only one per tank, even when you get a larger tank. 
Clown Loaches can outgrow even your goal of a 55 gallon tank. I would return him, and look into smaller Loaches such as Zebra Loaches (Botia striata) for your 20. Even these are too big for a 10 gallon, though. 

Plants for low light, and stay small enough for a 20 long:
There are several species of Cryptocoryne that could work well in this tank. 
Some of the smaller Anubias (Petite, Nana) are good, and these do not root in the substrate, so you could keep the UGF running, if that is your choice. 

You could grow plants in pots. Clay pots work well, or the basket-like pots that many plants are sold in will work. I have recently heard of (but not tried it) planting the plants in the compressed peat moss that is sold for starting seeds, then putting that peat-pot in a basket or clay pot. A 20 long is not very high, though. When you already have a UGF the pot would sit on top of that, so would be pretty high up in the tank.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

What motorcycle do you have? I hope that it doesn't have tires only made specifically for your bike. My Valkyrie Tourer was like thats.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Left C said:


> What motorcycle do you have? I hope that it doesn't have tires only made specifically for your bike. My Valkyrie Tourer was like thats.


Nope, I most definitely not. I need 120/70 front and 180/55 rear, Z rated, 15 inch tires. Currently running Michelin Pilot Road 2's, 6k miles or so on them so far. This is it, just snapped it this one with my cell phone when you asked:


Not my favorite pic, this is:


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Nice bike!!!! I'm sure that Givi trunk has been very handy.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Diana K said:


> I would suggest the Aquaclear product line of filters, and a plant-specific type of substrate if you want plants that root in the substrate. There are many options here, but one of the least expensive (especially if your goal is a larger tank) is a product originally made for baseball diamonds. Turface is the name of one of these. It is available through John Deere, a company that provides a wide range of material to landscapers and many other fields. A single 50 pound bag will be enough to 'scape all 3 tanks (10, 20 long and 55 gallons)
> 
> Lighting: CFL work just fine for small planted tanks (such as you have at the moment). Over a 20 long, I would use 2 drop lights or a long fixture so the lights are spread out as equally as possible. Tanks with a smaller surface area (10 gallon or standard 20) might be OK with a single drop light, if the bulb is high enough watts. 2 fixtures allows you the option of more than one type of bulb, though. Minimum 2 watts per gallon. I am not sure this option would work with a 55, though. These tanks are pretty tall, and would probably be better with T-8 at least, or even T-5 lighting with a good reflector.


I will definably give that forum a read.

I looked Turface up, it seems it comes in a number of different forms. Which type do you suggest, and can it be used by itself?

CFL's a cheap, but so are T12 lights. What about a dual-bulb 36" T12 "shop" light with reflector? The length is perfect for a 20 gallon long, and each bulb is 30W, so 3 WPG. But I'll probably just end up with CFL's...cheaper.



Left C said:


> Nice bike!!!! I'm sure that Givi trunk has been very handy.


Thanks! And indeed it has! I hated having to wear a backpack, although I did, being a full-time college student. To school and back, and work and back, both 5x per week. I got the Givi a few weeks ago, and LOVE it. Plop the backpack inside and away I go. Then once I get there I use it to hold my jacket and pants so I don't have to carry them around with me.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jseyfert3 said:


> ... Thanks! And indeed it has! I hated having to wear a backpack, although I did, being a full-time college student. To school and back, and work and back, both 5x per week. I got the Givi a few weeks ago, and LOVE it. Plop the backpack inside and away I go. Then once I get there I use it to hold my jacket and pants so I don't have to carry them around with me.


Motorcycle luggage is great to have. My Valkyrie Tourer has some really nice hard saddle bags. The top flips up on them.



















This is me on my Valkyrie Tourer getting ready to head into the Boot Hill Saloon at Daytona Beach. That's Boot Hill in the background. It rained just about all the way down and I have on my rain suit.

The other picture is a place on the Blue Ridge Parkway overlooking Rough Butt Bald. I really liked that sign and I had to get my picture taken with it.

Sorry. I got offtrack from your question.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Left C said:


> Motorcycle luggage is great to have. My Valkyrie Tourer has some really nice
> Sorry. I got offtrack from your question.


Nice bike! No worries about the sidetrack, motorcycle related sidetracts are always fine with me. 

Besides, I'm been communicating extensively with Marauder both on my thread I started on my motorcycle forum and through PM's, and he's given me a bit of good advise.

So far, I believe I'll:

Get a $90 twin bulb T5 HO light instead of the CLF's.
Make a DIY canister filter using filter floss, PVC, and a $30 general purpose aquarium pump.
DIY CO2 until I have the money to get a pressurized system.
Get a CO2 drop checker to keep an eye on the CO2 levels.
Ferts from greenleafaquariums.com, instead of buying expensive stuff like Seachem.
Try and see how it works, ask questions as necessary, and keep interesting parties up-to-date.

I'm excited to get this rolling!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

A single T5HO bulb should be plenty for a 20 long. Two bulbs would be overkill. Maybe a single T5NO may be enough. Check out Hoppy's lighting sticky.

T5 bulbs come in 24" and 30" for your aquarium. There is a bigger selection of 24" bulbs, but there are a few plant bulbs that are 30". I would like a 36" bulb on a 30" aquarium, but you might.

You may want to consider purchasing the canister filter that you plan to use on your larger aquarium and throttle it back some.

DIY yeast CO2 sux. I hate it. Many of us are building our own regulator for pressurized CO2 use.

If it was me, I would not get a 55g. Its 13" front to back measurement makes aquascaping a bit hard. You may want to purchase an aquarium that is 18" from front to back. The ones with a 36"x18" include 40 breeder, 50g, 57g and 65g. Aquariums with a 48"x18" footprint included the 75g and 90g.

Also, "When in doubt, gas it!"


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Left C said:


> A single T5HO bulb should be plenty for a 20 long. Two bulbs would be overkill. Maybe a single T5NO may be enough. Check out Hoppy's lighting sticky.
> 
> T5 bulbs come in 24" and 30" for your aquarium. There is a bigger selection of 24" bulbs, but there are a few plant bulbs that are 30". I would like a 36" bulb on a 30" aquarium, but you might.
> 
> ...


48W is too much? Here it is, the 30" freshwater one. Because it's 24W bulbs I'm going to assume they are 24" bulbs in a 30" fixture.

The DIY canister filter would remain on this tank permanently, I'd build a bigger one for my planned future tank (still a few months off), or buy one at that point. Something like this, but probably no bio-filter.

DIY CO2 was just till I have the money for a pressurized system. BTW, how do you build your own regulator? You can get one off eBay with a needle valve output, dual gauges, and a solenoid for only $65.

As for the 55 gallon, today I was at Petsmart, and actually looked at a 55 gallon for the first time, and my first thought was "This is way to skinny." (front to back).

I'd like bigger, like a 75 gallon tank, but I'm not too sure how much weight I can concentrate in one spot. I'm in a second floor apartment in a three story apartment complex. Any ideas on what I should stop at, weight wise? Or should I see if a first floor apartment is available?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jseyfert3 said:


> 48W is too much? Here it is, the 30" freshwater one. Because it's 24W bulbs I'm going to assume they are 24" bulbs in a 30" fixture.


T5HO bulbs in a good single reflector are very bright plus a 20 long is only 12" tall and 12" wide. Check out Hoppy's sticky about lighting and a PAR meter.



jseyfert3 said:


> The DIY canister filter would remain on this tank permanently, I'd build a bigger one for my planned future tank (still a few months off), or buy one at that point. Something like this, but probably no bio-filter.


I have no interest at all in building something like that. I would rather use a ready made Eheim.



jseyfert3 said:


> DIY CO2 was just till I have the money for a pressurized system. BTW, how do you build your own regulator? You can get one off eBay with a needle valve output, dual gauges, and a solenoid for only $65.


Yeast sux big time. There are many of us that have built our own regulators. It is easy, rather cheap and you end up with a better piece of equipment than that $65 one.

regulator threads:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/8236-Regulator-Build-Links



jseyfert3 said:


> As for the 55 gallon, today I was at Petsmart, and actually looked at a 55 gallon for the first time, and my first thought was "This is way to skinny." (front to back).


They are skinny!

I have a 40 breeder in my apartment. It has a 36"x18" footprint and it is 16" tall. A 50g is 18" tall and a 65g is 24" tall. This size is enough for me.



jseyfert3 said:


> I'd like bigger, like a 75 gallon tank, but I'm not too sure how much weight I can concentrate in one spot. I'm in a second floor apartment in a three story apartment complex. Any ideas on what I should stop at, weight wise? Or should I see if a first floor apartment is available?


I think that an aquarium with equipment weighs about 10 lbs per gallon. I would think that most apartments could hold a 75g. You can test it out. Get 5 adults and have them stand very close together in your apartment. If they fall through the floor, you'll know that you can't have a 75g in your apartment. Isn't that a jammin' idea?


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Left C said:


> T5HO bulbs in a good single reflector are very bright plus a 20 long is only 12" tall and 12" wide. Check out Hoppy's sticky about lighting and a PAR meter.


This one? http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/lighting/34149-proper-wattage-aquariums.html

According to that one, 2x24W T5 can be used on a 20, but not a 20 long? Even though 55W CLF is listed for both? Is that because with CFL you can spread the light better then a 24" T5 bulb? Should I be posting a thread on the lighting forum for this question?



Left C said:


> I have no interest at all in building something like that. I would rather use a ready made Eheim.


Lol well that's you, I like doing stuff myself (to a point), especially if it saves money. My stand I have both my tanks on is made from 2x4's and 3/4" plywood. Cost me $70 in supplies (60% was hardware, not wood!), but it's rock solid. The tanks are stacked. I will eventually rebuild it, it doesn't need to have the plywood at all, and doesn't need to be quite as big, and I'll have the tanks side-by-side. But, you learn. Plus I intended the bottom shelf for a 10 gallon tank, which never happened.



Left C said:


> Yeast sux big time. There are many of us that have built our own regulators. It is easy, rather cheap and you end up with a better piece of equipment than that $65 one.


Well, like I said, money, until I can to the pressurized system. I'm going to a community college, and I work full time, so I do have some money. But it takes awhile, I can get lights now but not the CO2 system. Give me a month or so.

Thanks for the regulator links, I'll check them out.



Left C said:


> I think that an aquarium with equipment weighs about 10 lbs per gallon. I would think that most apartments could hold a 75g. You can test it out. Get 5 adults and have them stand very close together in your apartment. If they fall through the floor, you'll know that you can't have a 75g in your apartment. Isn't that a jammin' idea?


Cool idea. But now that you said that, it makes sense that it could hold a 75 gal tank. Sweet!


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Finally found Hoppy's thread. You didn't tell me it was on a different website...I'm new here, remember? 

Anyway, I asked if two of these 18W units would be too much. Since they have better reflectors then the ones I linked, even though it's 36W instead of 48W it's probably as much light!

Much to learn still, much to learn...


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Just tested my tap water for the first time, with my new API test kit. As follows:

21° KH
0° GH
7.4 PH


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

I have a 4x 54 watt T5HO Tek Light on my 75 and it is a blazer! This is it. http://www.specialty-lights.com/960035.html I've been able to grow virtually everything I put in the tank. The only exceptions being plants that required soft water. It has 9 bend parabolic reflectors and they really work.

There is a big difference between T5 and T5HO...namely about 50% more watts. I'm not entirely sure which light you are looking at here though. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+16770&pcatid=16770 The product description is confusing to me.

The 30" one is listed at 48 watts but has saltwater bulbs. The 24" light also has 48 watts but has a 10k and a non-specific K "plant" bulb.

It seems to me that since the WPG gallon rule tends to break down on tanks smaller than 55 or over 90, that a 48 watt light ought to be considered medium light over a 20 gallon tank. Coupled with pressurized C02 this ought to be a managable set-up. Am I right about this?

I do have to admit to being a wee bit rusty about all this. My tank has been running quite well for a long time now and I haven't done much with it recently.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Marauder said:


> I have a 4x 54 watt T5HO Tek Light on my 75 and it is a blazer! This is it.
> The 30" one is listed at 48 watts but has saltwater bulbs. The 24" light also has 48 watts but has a 10k and a non-specific K "plant" bulb.
> 
> It seems to me that since the WPG gallon rule tends to break down on tanks smaller than 55 or over 90, that a 48 watt light ought to be considered medium light over a 20 gallon tank. Coupled with pressurized C02 this ought to be a managable set-up. Am I right about this?


They have a 48W 30" freshwater one as well. Has the same non-discript bulbs.

As for the lighting, I'm waiting on an answer from Hoppy over here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/105774-par-vs-distance-t5-t12-pc-46.html#post1815336

I'm leaning towards the AH Supply bulbs, unless told otherwise, as they have a much better reflector then the ones I linked from Drs Foster Smith.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Here's Hoppy's list:








I'm not sure if the AH Supply bulbs count as a HO or NO in the 18W range though.

I'm going to take a SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess) and say off his chart, with a 4" high mounting point, two 18W AH Supply should give me medium light and two 24W should give me high light. This is with the AH Supply reflectors end-to-end over the tank, like one big long bulb.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm not sure if there's a better place to post this question, but based on my above test results, am I going to have some issues?

I did a search, and I'm not the only one with this sort of water, but it does seem to be rare.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jseyfert3 said:


> Just tested my tap water for the first time, with my new API test kit. As follows:
> 
> 21° KH
> 0° GH
> 7.4 PH


API's GH test kit sux big time. It is very had to tell the color change where the titration should be stopped. I hate this kit! If it was me, I'd throw it in the trash.

More than likely you do not have 0° GH since your KH is rather high. I don't not have a guess what it would be though.

For a cheap GH/KH test kit, try Hagen's (Nutrafin's). It measures in ppm instead of degrees but you can convert it to degrees easy enough. Divide your GH or KH degrees by 17.86 and you have ppm's.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

30" long aquarium suck when it comes to lighting. The biggest majority of linear bulbs (PC, T8, T12, T12VHO, T5, T5HO, T5VHO and so forth) come in lengths near 2 feet, 3 feet, 4 feet and so forth. Many times you are faced with using either bulbs too short (22") or too long (34"). There are a few bulbs that are near 30" long though. As you've found, you can place some bulbs end to end like those 18" PC's. This 2x18w kit would give you high light. Unless you have pressurized CO2, you should stay away from high light. Now if you went with a 30" 29g that is 18" tall vs a 12" tall 20 long, that same 2x18w kit will give you medium lighting. If you raise it up more, you will have low light. Look at Hoppy's first chart in his sticky. This is better information than the graph that you posted here. Look at his graphs using T5, T8 and T5HO bulbs. This will help you with these bulbs. A single T5 or T8 will be low light with a white reflector or no reflector and a single T5HO with a good reflector will give you very high light. With what you are wanting to do with a DIY filter and yeast/sugar CO2, you should stick with low light.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Left C said:


> API's GH test kit sux big time. It is very had to tell the color change where the titration should be stopped. I hate this kit! If it was me, I'd throw it in the trash.
> 
> More than likely you do not have 0° GH since your KH is rather high. I don't not have a guess what it would be though.
> 
> For a cheap GH/KH test kit, try Hagen's (Nutrafin's). It measures in ppm instead of degrees but you can convert it to degrees easy enough. Divide your GH or KH degrees by 17.86 and you have ppm's.


No, there was no question about it. There was never *ANY* color change, green from the first drop. Never any orange. Observe, drop by drop, one to five drops:





Then 10 drops after the five, "just to make sure":


PH 7.4:


This was Hoppy's response:


Hoppy said:


> A 20L tank is only 12 inches high and 12 inches front to back depth, 30 inches long. One T8 bulb will give you good low light. A Coralife 30 inch long T5NO light will give you low medium light. Anything more than that is going to be very high light. Of course you can reduce the intensity by raising the light above the top of the tank. But, why pay for so much more light than you need, then struggle to dim the light enough for it to be usable?


Can you even get a 30" T5NO light? A search turned up nothing at this point.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

jseyfert3 said:


> This was Hoppy's response: ...
> 
> Can you even get a 30" T5NO light? A search turned up nothing at this point.


Coralife used to have 30" T5NO freshwater fixtures in single bulb and twin bulb versions. They have been discontinued by Aqueon, but some places still have them. I found some. They work well with 20 longs.

30" T5NO freshwater single bulb fixture 18w: http://www.amazon.com/Freshwater-Aq...s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1334287231&sr=1-14

30" T5NO freshwater twin bulb fixture 2x18w: http://www.amazon.com/Aqueon-Coralife-05618-Aqualight-Freshwater/dp/B0009YHU2I and http://www.marineandreef.com/Aqualight_T5_Aquarium_FRESHWATER_Lighting_Coralife_p/res58121.htm



jseyfert3 said:


> No, there was no question about it. There was never *ANY* color change, green from the first drop. Never any orange. Observe, drop by drop, one to five drops: ...


If there was no color change, you don't have 0 degrees. You have more than 5 degrees because you stopped at 5 drops. Usually a high KH indicates a high GH and vice versa, but not always.

Did you shake the test tube after adding each drop?

That API GH test kit is mostly unreliable. The reagents used in it are cheap junk. I hate it.

This Hagen KH/GH test kit is much better and it is on clearance: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4345+13526&pcatid=13526

A much better test kit is LaMotte's total hardness test kit: http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/524/LaMotte-Test-Kits-Hardness

I use LaMotte's Alkalinity test kit when I make my 4 dKH solution: http://www.marinedepot.com/LaMotte_...water_Aquariums-LaMotte-LM1131-FITKAL-vi.html


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Left C said:


> If there was no color change, you don't have 0 degrees. You have more than 5 degrees because you stopped at 5 drops. Usually a high KH indicates a high GH and vice versa, but not always.
> 
> Did you shake the test tube after adding each drop?
> 
> ...


Actually, after 5 I jumped to 10, still nothing. My pictures indicated that, you just missed where I said that. And no, no color change does mean I have 0°GH. Because the solution is green from the bottle, but is supposed to turn the water orange, then the water goes green *after* you have added enough solution. Never turning orange in the first place? That means 0°GH. And yes, I shook it each drop.

No offense, but you are talking as if I don't know anything about what I'm doing. I did two labs in my chemistry 130 class this semester with titration (*And* me and my partner got the most accurate results of any of the lab groups), and I can read the test kit instructions, so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say it indicates 0°GH. I'm not saying it's not bad, and doesn't work. That is indeed a possibility. But before I get the Nutrafin test kit, I'm going to do a KH and GH test on a water supply in a nearby town I'll be in tomorrow. They RO the entire town's water supply (to much radon in the water), so it should be fairly low in both KH and GH. I'll also try bottled water, that should show up something. And, I'm going to get my hands on an official water quality report for my water supply, and see what they have to say. There's would be more accurate then aquarium kits at any rate! Besides, I have time. I'm no longer going to do DIY CO2, I'm simply going to wait till I can get a system built up. So it'll be at least a month, maybe two, before I'll have everything ready to roll.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Check out what the directions say: _"After first drop is added, solution will turn orange. If the water sample contains only l° dGH, the solution will turn from clear to its green endpoint after the first drop is added."_

Your sample reached its endpoint (green color) after one drop. It didn't turn orange. So, the GH is 1 degree and not 0 degrees according to the test kit's directions. (Actually it could be between 0 and 1 degree as the test kit isn't very accurate.)

There are 17.9 ppm's in 1 degree or 1 ppm equals 0.056 degrees. This test kit isn't accurate enough to determine its exact ppm.

It has been so long since I used this kit that I couldn't remember what colors the starting point and endpoint are. I was thinking that orange is the endpoint and green was the starting point. This led me to believe that you haven't added enough reagent. It didn't make sense to me that you kept adding drops after you have reached the endpoint.

Orange is the starting point and green is the endpoint. I had to look it up. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/downloads/KH-GH-test-instructions.pdf

Good luck with your aquarium. With your broad experience I don't believe that I will be of any further assistance.

(There are some typos after coping and pasting the directions from the pdf. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/downloads/KH-GH-test-instructions.pdf )

Directions lor Testing General Hardness (GH)

Read thoroughly before testing. Do not allow
Test Soluflons to get Into aquarium.
To remove childproof safety cop: With one
hand, push red tab left with thumb while
unscrewing cop with free hand.

1. Rinse a clean test tube with water to be tested.

2. Fillthe test tube with5 mlof aquariumwater
(to the line on the test fube).

3. Add General Hardness Test Solution, one drop
at a flme, holding dropper bottle upside down
In a completely vertical position to assure
unllormltyof drops. After first drop ~ added.
solution wUllurnorange. lithe water sample
contains only l'dGH, the soMIon wliturn from
cleor to lisgreen endpoint ofler the firstdrop ~
added.

4. Cop the test tube and Invert several times after
eoch drop. Keep count 01the drops being
added. Do not hold finger over open end of
the tube. as this may affect the test results.

5. The test Iscompleted when the water Inthe test
tube, after having been shaken. turns from
orange to green. Ifyou have difficulty
discerning the color after the firstdrop of test
solution Isadded, remove the cop from the test
tube and while holding It over a v.t/Ie
bockgrcx.ncl bel<down 1Irough the tube.

6. The General Hardness value Isdetermined by
the number of drops 01the reagent that must
be added to turn the water In the test tube
green. Each drop Isequal to 1 'dGH or 17.9
ppm GH (see the chart).


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

Left C said:


> Good luck with your aquarium. With your broad experience I don't believe that I will be of any further assistance.


Wow Cecil, having a bad day or what? :-( I don't remember you being like this over at PlantGeek.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

Because of my odd test, I talked to my chemistry teacher and he didn't think that is was possible to have no GH and a high KH, but he wasn't to sure. Anyway, that led to him saying we could run a titration on my water sample before my chemistry lab on Thursday. So Thursday I'll be running a more accurate water hardness test then an aquarium water tester will give me.


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## jseyfert3 (Apr 9, 2012)

My water test results are no longer odd! We have a water softener in our apartment complex. Water softeners soften water through an ion exchange, they remove the calcium/magnesium ions and replace them with sodium ions. Therefore, it seems perfectly logical for my results of 21°KH and 0°KH.

I took the same test kit up the street to the firehouse, which doesn't have a water softener. My results were:

20°KH
29°GH
So, I can get water from there, but it's liquid rock. On the other hand, water softeners aren't any better for the fish since they just replace the minerals with sodium.

On the bright side, my new stand, currently in the planning stage, will look pretty good. So far:


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