# First NPT



## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

Just started my first NPT:










I know I don't have a lot of plant mass, but I was wondering if there's enough to support any fish? It's a 46g tank.

Thanks

Plants (clockwise from upper left): 
unpsecified sword
unpsecified sword
Anubias coffeefolia
Echindorus Ozelot
Java fern
Windilov (Microsorium pteropus)
Wendtii red


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

only120xs said:


> Just started my first NPT:... I was wondering if there's enough to support any fish?


Welcome! 

Plants do a lot in an aquarium. In addition to soaking up ammonia and spitting out oxygen, they strip nutrients from the water that can support algae growth. I suspect you have about 1/100th the amount of plant mass in your 46 as I have in my 45, and mine has about 20 fish. Since you can't really get by with only 1/5th of a fish, I'm thinking you need lots more plants. 

Or you can approach your setup as a fish-only tank, at least until your plants start to mature. This means traditional filtration and/or lots of water changes. Regardless, I would cover 1/3 of the surface with floating plants to help pull algae-growing nutrients from the water.

Good luck!
Jim


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## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

Dustymac said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Plants do a lot in an aquarium. In addition to soaking up ammonia and spitting out oxygen, they strip nutrients from the water that can support algae growth. I suspect you have about 1/100th the amount of plant mass in your 46 as I have in my 45, and mine has about 20 fish. Since you can't really get by with only 1/5th of a fish, I'm thinking you need lots more plants.
> 
> ...


:lol: Thanks. That confirms my thoughts, so I guess I'll skip the fish for a while and get more plants as I can.

I think I'm going to hook up my HOB filter with a carbon filter to try to clear up the water though. Maybe run it at night so I don't have to listen to it.










The tank was set up Friday night, so I thought I'd check the water params just in case. Here's what I have:
pH: 7.0
GH: 5
NO2: 0
NH3: 0
NO3: 0

Looks good, right? Is that hardness OK, or should I add some coral to the substrate?


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

only120xs said:


> That confirms my thoughts, so I guess I'll skip the fish for a while and get more plants as I can.


I'm sorry if I scared you into delaying the introduction of fish; that wasn't my intent. There is a certain symbiosis between fish and plants and without the fish, your plants won't grow as fast. I would start with a few small fish, a couple medium fish, or one larger fish. As long as you have an ammonia/nitrite test kit, you can monitor any potentially dangerous nitrogen levels.



> I think I'm going to hook up my HOB filter with a carbon filter to try to clear up the water though. Maybe run it at night so I don't have to listen to it.


Great! But I have reservations about starting and stopping filters where the water can sit stagnant for several hours at a time. It just seems to me that bad stuff can happen to that water among all that organic material. Of course, I don't know for sure; it's just an inkling of mine. Maybe someone can add their expertise on this issue.



> The tank was set up Friday night, so I thought I'd check the water params just in case. Here's what I have:
> pH: 7.0
> GH: 5
> NO2: 0
> ...


I would boost your hardness a bit. According to Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, your hardness should be at least 8. And yes, it does look good. Keep the pics coming! 

Jim


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I want to commend you for your nice photos. This kind of well-organized information makes it much easier to weigh in.

A water change might reduce some of that faint turbidity. Also, I see you've planted your Java Fern. (Usually, these plants are tied to rocks or driftwood.) Your plant's rhizomes may rot if they're buried in a soil/gravel substrate like this? You might want to rubber band it to a small rock or the plumbing in your tank.

Most importantly, I see a lot of empty water here for such a small plant mass. Here's something you could try that might help. Reduce your water level temporarily (2-3 months and/or until you get robust plant growth). Benefits:


Water itself absorbs a great deal of light. By reducing the water level, your plants will get more light. It may not matter for the Java fern, Anubia, Crypts, but it will greatly help your swordplants. (I've found that one robust swordplant can make all the difference with algae control.)

You'll automatically increase your plant mass to water ratio. The plants you have will have more impact on the ecosystem in a smaller volume of water. Right now that huge volume of water on top of the plants looks like a perfect potential breeding ground for green water algae.

Any water changes will be easier.

I've done this myself for my new 5 gal tank. See attached photo.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Sweet thread!!! I was just wondering about my 10 npt because the plants haven't grown in yet and I can't stand the emptiness in the top 2/3 of the water column. I'll take Dwalstad's advice and roll on.

BTW only120xs, I'm sending you a pm on some potential plants, pending your long-term scape outlook.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

For NPT I think you should plant heavier. A few groups of stem plants in the mix will help out greatly, of coarse those swords will eventually take over and the stems will be obsolete.

Get those rhizomes out of the substrate (the anubias and java ferns). They will eventually send roots down into the soil, but the rhizome has to be above ground to survive. I tie my epiphytes to small stones and sink the stones into the substrate. That way they look planted, but really aren't. After a few weeks the plants have shot roots down into the soil and all is well.

Great start on a NPT!

-Dave


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## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks everyone! Lots of stuff I didn't know.

So, I've lowered the water level as much as I can (maybe half to 2/3 of the last pic), attached a filter, and stuck the Java fern under the rock.

I'll pull the Coffeefolia out of the dirt and add some coral to the gravel. I'm going to wait till at least next week to get fish; I do have that giant snail in there though.

The filter doesn't seem to be doing much for the water, so I'll probably remove it at the end of the week.

Dave - Yeah, I know it's not enough plants; I would have gotten more if I could have afforded it! 

I hope to get some plants from a friend in the next week or two, and thanks for the offer Mudboots, I'll respond shortly!


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## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

Just thought I'd add some more photos:

From 10/20/09









10/23/09: Got some Marsilea and Hygrophyla bold:









10/25/09: A couple of fish in there now. Some of the Marsilea is dying off, but hopefully it's just the weak parts.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

only120xs said:


> JSome of the Marsilea is dying off, but hopefully it's just the weak parts.


Funny, but I too just bought some _Marsilea quadrifolia_. The vendor (AquariumPlants.com) went out of their way advising me to cut off _all the foliage _ to 1/4 inch (or less) above the rim of the pot. [No warning like this about other emersed plants (e.g., _Hemianthus callictroides_) I've received from them. Apparently, Marsilea will need to grow all new submerged leaves from the remaining root mass. When I got the plant, it had a beautiful thick mass of stems/leaves 3-4 inches high. I hated cutting it off.

Some plant species that are grown emersed adapt better than others to the submerged condition.

I see that your tank water was a little color tinted on 10/23. It could be leachings from the dying Marsilea leaves and/or tannins from the soil. Whatever the source, it looks like you've done a water change to clear things up.

That's great you got more plants. Nice work!


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## HoldingWine (Oct 7, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> Apparently, Marsilea will need to grow all new submerged leaves from the remaining root mass.


That's correct. All of the emersed leaves on my Marsilea eventually rotted away. I think cutting them all down was probably the way to go.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Glad to see the plants in the water. Everytime I've planted Marsilea I've lost the majority of the leaves as the plants acclimated and they started to come back after a couple of weeks. I don't test water conditions, so I can't offer any suggestions or forecasts for what you've got. The Hygro.bold should acclimate quickly though and is a fast grower.

Have you noticed bubbles coming up from the substrate yet (various gasses being produced)? I just noticed some from my 10 npt last night.


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## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

mudboots said:


> Glad to see the plants in the water. Everytime I've planted Marsilea I've lost the majority of the leaves as the plants acclimated and they started to come back after a couple of weeks. I don't test water conditions, so I can't offer any suggestions or forecasts for what you've got. The Hygro.bold should acclimate quickly though and is a fast grower.
> 
> Have you noticed bubbles coming up from the substrate yet (various gasses being produced)? I just noticed some from my 10 npt last night.


Sorry, I didn't notice this post earlier!

I'd say I only lost 20% or so of the Marsilea. But it sure was a pain to get it planted, and I've had to go back twice and re-plant some of it as my snail rolls over everything.

No, I haven't noticed any bubbles from the substrate.

Yeah, I can already see the Hygro growth!

My "sword" in the upper left corner is growing at a crazy rate, and has a big spike coming out of the middle  Is it a flower of some kind? Is it really a sword? I think it grew almost 1" the other night!


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

only120xs said:


> No, I haven't noticed any bubbles from the substrate.


Patience...



> Yeah, I can already see the Hygro growth!
> 
> My "sword" in the upper left corner is growing at a crazy rate, and has a big spike coming out of the middle  Is it a flower of some kind? Is it really a sword? I think it grew almost 1" the other night!


1" overnight? That's nothing. Welcome to the downside of El Natural: pruning, pruning, pruning.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> My "sword" in the upper left corner is growing at a crazy rate, and has a big spike coming out of the middle  Is it a flower of some kind? Is it really a sword? I think it grew almost 1" the other night!


This sounds like progress, indeed. Your swordplant is having babies! The spike will develop blossoms and then new plants all along the spike. Try to keep the spike in the water so the growing tip doesn't dry out. Because this is a new tank where you want as much plant growth as possible, I wouldn't do any pruning for quite awhile. Later, you can plant the baby swords or give them away.

I understand about the Marsilea mess floating upwards. I had to use a small stone to keep the plants from dislodging and floating.


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## bratyboy2 (Feb 5, 2008)

i used a plant weight lol its working!!!


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## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

Quick update: 
The spike on the sword is now probably 20+ inches long, growing horizontally across the water surface. There is now a second spike about 3-4" as well. 
The marsilia looks like it has some new growth in a couple of places, so I'm happy with that! 
I'm also seeing new growth on the coffefolia and the stem plants.

Question:
So, when I got the first plants, I got a couple of random snails to inhibit anticipated algae. I'm now wondering if it was a mistake... While they appear to be doing their job, the past week I've actually started to see some algae in the tank, so the snail population is booming. What started out as 3 small snails has now turned into 9+ small to medium snails plus way more itty bitty ones than I can count. I don't actually mind the snails themselves, but I'm afraid they will damage my plants (though I have no concrete evidence that this is happening yet); I think I read somewhere that ramshorn snails can damage sword plants. 
Any advice on this? Should I not worry about the plants? Should I try to control the population? If so, my preferred method would be to get a fish that will eat them, but I can't seem to find much that will work in a community tank the size of mine- the loaches all seem to be too big (especially considering that you have to have 5 or more), puffers are too aggressive, and cichlids are too aggressive also, right? What about an angel? Will they eat snails?


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## HoldingWine (Oct 7, 2007)

only120xs said:


> the loaches all seem to be too big (especially considering that you have to have 5 or more)


Yoyo loaches really don't get too large (4-5" range). I've read they should be kept in groups of 3 or more, but I really don't know how accurate that is. They don't seem to need the company of others to feel secure in their environment as say, tetras would. I have two right now and they seem pretty content. I've also kept one solo in a 30 gallon before and he seemed fine. I know that seems like blasphemy to some :sorry:, but from what I observed, he was more than okay with having the whole bottom to himself.

They're also pretty fun to watch rummaging around looking for snails.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

only120xs said:


> but I'm afraid they will damage my plants (though I have no concrete evidence that this is happening yet); I think I read somewhere that ramshorn snails can damage sword plants?


Ignore what you've heard and read. Ramshorn snails only eat plant leaves that are dying and decomposing. [Allelochemicals produced by living aquatic plants keep snails at bay; once the plant is dead, the allelochemicals leach out and the snails move in to feast on the remains.]

Snails actually help plants by cleaning their leaves of algae and bacteria. I have snails, including Ramshorn, in all my tanks and consider them to be helpful.

I understand that some exotic snail species eat plant leaves, but Ramshorn aren't one of them.

Consider snails a bonus for your tanks.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Loaches for a 46 gallon bowfront with peaceful community fish:
Sidthemunkis
Kuhlies- mouth is too small for snails, but I think they eat baby snails. I have adult snails in my tanks with Kuhlies, but only a very slow increase. 
Kubotai
Zebra Loaches

I have a Horsehead Loach in mine. (Have never found more to get him some friends.)

Yes, keep any of these in groups, they are social fish.


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## only120xs (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestions!



dwalstad said:


> Ignore what you've heard and read. Ramshorn snails only eat plant leaves that are dying and decomposing. [Allelochemicals produced by living aquatic plants keep snails at bay; once the plant is dead, the allelochemicals leach out and the snails move in to feast on the remains.]
> 
> Snails actually help plants by cleaning their leaves of algae and bacteria. I have snails, including Ramshorn, in all my tanks and consider them to be helpful.
> 
> ...


Awesome!


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