# 2 questions...



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So I was reading up on other people's mulm problems and found that mine are similarly annoying- I wanted to re-open this topic. It seems vacuuming the most offensive spots makes it come back with avengence. Some of it is the roots of my floating phylanthus. I'm looking into the aquaclear powerhead but wasn't sure if I necessarily needed one that coresponded with my tank size (I have a 36 gal. and I'd either get a 30 or a 50gal. filter- right now I just have a 5 gal. stingray for circulation.). The mulm keeps forming 1/2inch thick patches around the base of my plants and coming up in clouds when my bottom feeders prowl around. It's also sticking to the leaves of plants, I believe because of bacteria as D. Walsted suggested. Any insight?

Also, is there a verdict regarding Flourish Excel? I recall someone saying it helped with their algae but disagreed with certain plants. I have thread algae and some residual black beard that just won't leave my finer plants alone. Whenever I allow slightly more light into the tank, they surge up again (not that I'm surprised too much). Thanks!


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

I am just learning about NPTS, but do have quite a bit of experience using Excel as an algae preventative and algicide. It is being dosed as required in my 5 gallon Tom Barr type low maintenance tank, not as an algicide but to provide a carbon source to plants in lieu of lack of c02. I have tried it as an algicide and although I never spot treated a lot of plants with it to kill algae, I found that even double and triple dosing it, it took many months for it to work to reduce/eliminate the algae. This made it cost prohibitive as an alagicide. I also noticed that my java moss turned brown and died and my egera densa melted and never recovered. Also, considering it took 6 months to work, I have to wonder whether this change would have happened without using excel and whether it was more due to the tank achieving balance and stability after the 6 months. The other thing that you should be aware of is that many people claim to have lost fish using excel in double/triple doses as an algicide. I was lucky that this never happened to me.

I don't think that Excel is endorsed in keeping with a true Diana Walstead type Natural Planted Tank. I believe that the approach would be more to contain algae and keep it from overtaking the tank by using floating plants, and a variety of Algae eating fish and inverts(snails, shrimp, bristlenose pleco, siamese algae eaters, mollies, rosy barbs, etc.,) However, that does not mean you cannot dose excel if you choose to with a natural planted tank. Given the possible risk to fish from double and triple dosing, I would probably just stick to the recommended doses if I were you or try and spot treat with the recommended dose(no more and no less using a syringe). There are lots of people who set up Natural Planted Tanks and cheat(re: using water column fertilizers, excel, c02 injection, more frequent water changes, etc.,) You may need to experiment to see what works best for you.

Other than siphoning excess mulm or adding additional plants to benefit from the excess mulm and over time reduce its production, I don't know what else you can do. I guess frequent pruning, less feeding, etc., can also help cut down mulm production. You don't want to get rid of too much mulm as it is desired and welcomed in a Natural Planted Setup.

Good luck.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Thank you for your insight, Homer- what plants help cut mulm? I didn't know some were better than others. Sometimes I think my problem is filtration but more circulation I think would churn up the junk. 

I prune as needed but there isn't much I can do about the floating plant roots. They drop as they please. The mulm does help witht he algae but I was wondering if there's a low-growing plant that would be better.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Emily6 said:


> Thank you for your insight, Homer- what plants help cut mulm? I didn't know some were better than others. Sometimes I think my problem is filtration but more circulation I think would churn up the junk. I prune as needed but there isn't much I can do about the floating plant roots. They drop as they please. The mulm does help witht he algae but I was wondering if there's a low-growing plant that would be better.


You are welcome. The plants that come to mind that might enjoy feeding off the mulm are: Hygrophilia Polysperma and Hygrophila difformis. However, these will grow quite rapidly and may require frequent pruning. Some carpet plants that may like feeding off the mulm for growth are 
Dwarf Baby Tears (Hemianthus callitrichoides) and Pelia (Monosolenium Tenerum).

With respect to filtration, there are a couple of things that you could try but they are not endorsed by the Natural Planted Tank concept. A diatom filter will completely filter out all the heavy stuff like the excess mulm debris floating in the water as well as parasites, some algae spores and any other bad stuff. You don't have to run it 24/7 and I would not recommend it as it does produce a strong current when it is running and having this on a conitinuous basis may stress out your fish. You can run it once in a while to filter out the excess debris. The other thing is a filter with a very strong inlet suction to suck up and filter out the free floating debris. But this will quickly clog your filter which means that you will have to clean your filter frequently until the problem is under control to keep the filter from clogging up. Other than that frequent water changes to remove the excess debris until it is under control. While I know that water changes are not necessary in a NPT, I don't think that there is any harm in doing them. It depends on your personal views as well. If you feel water is too precious a commodity to waste and your city has water rations than this may not be a good option. Regardless, just remember, there are lots of people who cheat and don't keep a Pure NPT.

*Note: these views may not reflect the views of all members, the moderators, and owner of this.*


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Increasing the circulation in your tank should help with the mulm problem. Point the water flow downward to stir up the mulm before it settles and let it get sucked into the filter. I'd use the power head w/ the quick connect filter attachment. 

-ricardo


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok, I think I'll go ahead and order that filter. Maybe I'll just keep it simple with the 30gal filter so the flow isn't as rough. Plus with the little 5gal, I think I have it covered anyway. What about my thread algae? It's starting to make a mess out of my Christmas moss. The floating plants are harboring some aswell and sometimes get hung up around the rooted plants.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Mulm and a little algae sound like minor problems to me. I have had tanks where mulm builds up, and I just vacumned those spots where it collected. There's nothing wrong with mulm- unless it gets 2-3 inches deep. I'm sure that the plants love it. And its possibly full of nitrifying bacteria, so it doesn't hurt the fish, either.

If you've got mulm debris in the water, then the Quick Filter attachment to the Aqua Clear submerged powerhead could easily clear the water. Total cost is about $30-- well worth it. I use these filters in two of my tanks and keep a spare to clean up minor turbidity problems in the third tank.

Sometimes suggested cures for a minor problem can cause major headaches. If your fish and majority of plants are doing well, I'd relax. Plus, some of these "problems" may go away with time.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

My 2 cents on using Excel in NPTs. I had some annoying thread algae in my moss and substrate, and a thin coating of green peach fuzz algae on many of my leaves. This was about 4-6 months into a new tank. After a lot of internet research on the topic, I tried the triple dose Excel procedure. In my case, it worked very well to get rid of the fuzzy "hair" algae on the leaves in about a week. It also knocked the thread algae way down, but not completely in the same time. Probably the "thread algae" was a mix of several species, and some types in the mix were resistant to Excel.

I continued using it for about two months at double dose (daily), carefully monitoring water parameters and fish health throughout. I have fairly hard water, 7.9 pH, lots of platies, some otos, and many cherry shrimp. The fish and shrimp seemed totally unaffected, but it's hard to say for certain about the shrimp since there are so many in there. Also I hadn't done a water change over the whole two months.

After two months, I would say that most algae types were not observable in the tank, but there still was a particular thread algae that stayed at a stable level on the substrate. I left well enough alone. I stopped the dosing about a month ago, and that thread algae is growing a bit in population but it's not too much a bother for me. I have not observed the other types yet (knock on wood).

More importantly perhaps were the effects on the plants. Overdosing Excel seemed to damage my vallisneria - many of its leaves slowly disintegrated over the two months. After stopping the treatment, the vallisneria has bounced back and is putting out new growth. On the other hand, I noticed that my Hemianthus callitrichoides and Hemianthus micranthemoides started to really take off during the Excel treatment. I believe other folks have observed similar results.

Bottom line, if I ever do the Excel treatment again, I'll use it for only 2 or 3 weeks, and I will not expect it to kill all types of algae. Or I might use it again temporarily if I want to boost HC growth.

This forum has an interesting thread on Excel for algae control, in case you hadn't seen it already.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...blems/3806-flourish-excel-got-rid-all-my.html


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

or you can hook up a DIY CO2 instead of excel.
My plants tend of melt with excel.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks guys- I'm still working on gettng the filter but otherwise, I'll stop fidgeting and let well enough be. I vacuumed the surface of the gravel last night and I'm looking into a ground-cover plant to absorb some of the junk between vacuuming. Black beard algae on thebare gravel seems to love when I thin the floating plants but dies back again once they fill in the surface. Anywho, back to work!


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So I got that Aquaclear powerhaed filter and wow! It's doing a great job! since thinning the Phylanthus, some of the mulm has diminished as well. So progress is being made! I think the trick was to do a thourough cleaning and then install the filter to clean up the suspended debris. I've been rustling the plants to knock off whatever's stuck to them as well. That was my main concern. Anyway, thanks again!

Also, would mts create more suspended debris in all of their churning of the soil? I noticed I have a lot of gas pockets still and I worry that some of the mulm nutrients aren't really getting to the roots- sort of like a stagnation of the soil.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Emily6 said:


> So I got that Aquaclear powerhaed filter and wow! It's doing a great job! since thinning the Phylanthus, some of the mulm has diminished as well. So progress is being made! I think the trick was to do a thourough cleaning and then install the filter to clean up the suspended debris. I've been rustling the plants to knock off whatever's stuck to them as well. That was my main concern. Anyway, thanks again!
> 
> Also, would mts create more suspended debris in all of their churning of the soil? I noticed I have a lot of gas pockets still and I worry that some of the mulm nutrients aren't really getting to the roots- sort of like a stagnation of the soil.


You could poke the soil with chop sticks weekly. But I would coordinate it with water changes(at least 50%) as this will likely lead to release of ammonia and hydrogen sulphide. However, doing this until bubbles subside may help prevent compaction and problems over the long term.


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

I have MTS in my soil based tanks and I've noticed a decrease in debris with them around, not an increase. Since they move quite slowly when they are digging they really don't kick up the debris, it just kinda slides down with them. They also do a great job at keeping anaerobic pockets from forming.


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