# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Dwarf form of Vallisneria spiralis?



## imported_Mario (Jul 14, 2003)

When I first set up my 90 gallon tank I planted it with a plant package from Aquariumdriftwood.com. I really had not much of an idea what I was doing, I just planted everything in different spots and watched.

Part of the package was _Vallisneria spiralis_ or spiral Val. In my 90 gallon tank this baby took off like nobodies business. In a short time my whole right third of the tank was overgrown with that plant.

While planting the tank I found what I believed was a different plant- it looked like spiral Val, only it was much shorter. I planted these plants in the foreground of my 90 gallon tank and they never grew, not an inch in hight, not a single runner. Eventually, I figured this might be due to low light conditions, so I replanted it in a 10 gallon tank with about 4 watts/gallon. Now this plant took of growing as well. It sent out tons of runners and new plants popped up everywhere. However, the leaves never got taller than about 3''-4''. While the spiral Val in my 90 gallon tank easily reaches 24''.

I looked around in various books, but I could not find a description of a dwarf spiral Val. Does anybody have an idea what this plant might be? It's actually a superb plant for smaller tanks. :wink:

Here are pictures of both plants.

The regular form in my 90 gallon tank. The tank is 24'' high and some of the leaves are drifting on the surface of the water.










Here is the small form in my 10 gallon tank. The tank is 12'' high and the tallest plant is about 3.5''. You can see my Oto for size comparison.


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## imported_Mario (Jul 14, 2003)

When I first set up my 90 gallon tank I planted it with a plant package from Aquariumdriftwood.com. I really had not much of an idea what I was doing, I just planted everything in different spots and watched.

Part of the package was _Vallisneria spiralis_ or spiral Val. In my 90 gallon tank this baby took off like nobodies business. In a short time my whole right third of the tank was overgrown with that plant.

While planting the tank I found what I believed was a different plant- it looked like spiral Val, only it was much shorter. I planted these plants in the foreground of my 90 gallon tank and they never grew, not an inch in hight, not a single runner. Eventually, I figured this might be due to low light conditions, so I replanted it in a 10 gallon tank with about 4 watts/gallon. Now this plant took of growing as well. It sent out tons of runners and new plants popped up everywhere. However, the leaves never got taller than about 3''-4''. While the spiral Val in my 90 gallon tank easily reaches 24''.

I looked around in various books, but I could not find a description of a dwarf spiral Val. Does anybody have an idea what this plant might be? It's actually a superb plant for smaller tanks. :wink:

Here are pictures of both plants.

The regular form in my 90 gallon tank. The tank is 24'' high and some of the leaves are drifting on the surface of the water.










Here is the small form in my 10 gallon tank. The tank is 12'' high and the tallest plant is about 3.5''. You can see my Oto for size comparison.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Mario,
As I understand it, there is a 'contortionist' val which is heavily spiraled and grows tall like its straight growing cousins. The val spiralis which is commonly sold as such, grows shorter, though I haven't heard it in the 3"-4" range. Typically it grows in the 10-12" range. 
In my tanks, I have straight val (italian, the lfs called it) which needs pruning weekly. I bought some V. spiralis, but it just sat there for a month without doing anything. Eventually I disposed it. You mentioned that when you moved it to the 10 gal with 4 WPG it took off. Perhaps that would explain my problem since my tank is at 2.6 WPG
Bert.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

The only times I've seen that kind of stunted growth out of val it was cured by adding phosphorus. The effected plants would spread -- even producing a dense matt -- but they wouldn't grow vertically.


Roger Miller


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

A local aquarist here is growing a dwarf form of vallisneria, but the parent plants are not of normal size. He's not sure if there's a scientific name attached, either.

 
(Click for pics)


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## imported_Mario (Jul 14, 2003)

Bert, the naming of the Vallisneria species seems a little confusing, doesn't it? The spiraling kinds are, as far as I know. I have seem the Vallisneria spiralis been referred to as Corkscrew, Spiral or Contortion Val. The place where I got mine called them Spiral Vals.

Roger, do you think that once these plants are stunted by lack of PO4 their offspring stays stunted as well? Indead, I only recently started adding PO4 to my tanks and the Vals in my 10 gallon still don't exceed 4''.

2la (nice to 'see' you), in my case the parent plants were small as well. In my order there was a bunch of large and a bunch of small plants that I planted in different spots in my 90 gallon tank. I then transferred only the small group to the 10 gallon. Is the dwarf form this person is growing also spiraling?


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Mario:
> Is the dwarf form this person is growing also spiraling?


Good point, Mario. No, his plants don't spiral. And they have broader leaves, looking very much like a darker green, diminutive form of Sagittaria chilensis. So we're probably dealing with two different species/varieties, then.

BTW, here's an article on Vallisneria nomenclature. I don't know if it's the definitive work on vals, but it might help sort a few things out.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/vallisneria.htm

 
(Click for pics)


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Mario:
> Roger, do you think that once these plants are stunted by lack of PO4 their offspring stays stunted as well? Indead, I only recently started adding PO4 to my tanks and the Vals in my 10 gallon still don't exceed 4''.


The offspring are stunted as long as they stay in a low-phosphorus environment. They respond quickly to phosphate fertilizers. If you have been adding phosphate for more than a week and the plants haven't responded then phosphorus is probably not the problem.

Roger Miller


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## imported_Mario (Jul 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Good point, Mario. No, his plants don't spiral. And they have broader leaves, looking very much like a darker green, diminutive form of Sagittaria chilensis. So we're probably dealing with two different species/varieties, then.
> 
> BTW, here's an article on Vallisneria nomenclature. I don't know if it's the definitive work on vals, but it might help sort a few things out.


Thanks for the info 2la. The article on the Val nomenclature is interesting, but somehow feels a little inadaequate. Together with the two different dwarf forms, there probably seem to be a lot of species (or varieties) out there that are not properly discribed.



> quote:
> 
> The offspring are stunted as long as they stay in a low-phosphorus environment.


I've been dosing PO4 in that tank for nearly a months now and the plants are still little. S I assume it is permanent.

Overall, I'm quite happy with this plant. It's just too perfect for a small tank as a midground plant. It looks nice, doesn't get too tall and reproduces rapidly. What more do you need?

Thanks everyone for your input... mario


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## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

I had this stunt growth on a reddish tiger val. The new leaves are bright red and older ones are greenish. The plants does not get any taller than 5 inch. I had over 40 plants in a 4 by 4 area I added jobes stick and Fe tab under neath the mat of vals.

72 Gal, 3 WPG PC 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller 1 bps, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

EDGE,

What happened after you added the jobes spikes and iron tabs?


Roger Miller


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## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

It just got really dense and didn't send any runners outside the designated 4x4 patch. I had 2 rocks that form a terrace wall to keep it in place

plants stay short.

really dark black spots. New leaves were much darker red but turn much darker green once they get older

The roots weren't as heavily pack like the regular val. They were finer and was easy to pull out of the gravel.

They were sending runners out like crazy. Once the newier growth reach about 1 inch in length a new runner is already out and rooted from the 1 inch plant.

Sad news is, most of them melted during the city to city moved. I only have 5 plants left. I place them in the mid ground area of the tank in the new setup. This time they are not contain by terrace,

Visible difference during the moved were, black spots went away and a couple leaves grew tall and narrow.

72 Gal, 3 WPG PC 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller 1 bps, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


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