# Medium Low light ( 1.75 wpg ) + dry ferts - co2 injection = ???????



## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

Medium Low light ( 1.75 wpg ) + dry ferts - co2 injection = ???????


Since there is no injection, and a lower level of lighting do I need to stay on the low end of the scale? ex- nitrate 10 -20 should I stay closer to 10 or does it matter?

Is adding ferts with low light an algae breeding ground?

The tank is medium planted.

Red Ludwigia bunches (spread out)
Java Ferns (many plantlets)
Wisteria ( spread )
amazons (4 melon 1 amazon)
Bocapa caroliniania ( spread )
red indica
Microsword
Java moss
2 crypts ( not sure type)
1 apongeton undulata

more on the way: 

corkscrew vals
dwarf sag
red temple


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Welcome to APC  

You still need to add ferts with low light just less of them. Start off with half the recommended dose on the bottle label. Since you are not injecting C02 use Seachem Excel, which is a carbon source. Keeping the N03 at around 10ppm is still a good idea and P04 at 1ppm.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

Well I have some dry ferts coming from Greg Watsons.

KNO3
K2SO4
CaCl2
MgSO4.7H2O

for phosphates I'll buy some fleet enema because at the time I thought my water had some.But I've noticed green spot algae and been told its caused by low phosphates.

Will I still need Excel or will these ferts supply some carbon?


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

> Medium Low light ( 1.75 wpg ) + dry ferts - co2 injection = ???????
> Since there is no injection, and a lower level of lighting do I need to stay on the low end of the scale? ex- nitrate 10 -20 should I stay closer to 10 or does it matter?


You can use the same ranges. It'll just take less fertilizer to maintain those ranges as there will be lower uptake rates by the plants.



> Is adding ferts with low light an algae breeding ground?


IME it'll be more of a breeding ground without the ferts. If you are interested in reading more then Tom Barr has a good article on non CO2 methods at the "barrreport.com". If you decide to add Excel there's an article about Excel tanks at "gregwatson.com".

Good luck, Bill


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

IceH2O said:


> Well I have some dry ferts coming from Greg Watsons.
> 
> KNO3
> K2SO4
> ...


Oops we posted at the same time. If you want to add carbon then you'll need to add Excel if you're not doing CO2. You don't have to add carbon if you are happy with a very slow growing tank although I've had less algae probs using Excel than when I didn't. Bright side is the algae grows slower too and there's less maintenance in general.

Bill

PS
You'll need something for trace fertilizers also.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

So I should use the ferts plus Flourish and Flourish Excel.

Flourish contains the trace nutrients right? Or is there a better solution to trace nutrients?


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

IceH2O said:


> So I should use the ferts plus Flourish and Flourish Excel.
> 
> Flourish contains the trace nutrients right? Or is there a better solution to trace nutrients?


Yes. You are basically looking at three things: 1. Macronutrients NPK covered by the dry ferts and Fleet. Personally I just use KNO3 which covers Nitrogen and potassium and KH2PO4 which covers phosphate. 2. Micronutrients covered by Flourish or Tropica Master Grow or CSM. Any of them are fine. I use TMG but my guess is that Flourish is the most popular here. 3. Carbon covered by Flourish Excel.

Hope that helps, Bill


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Just a precision re the Flourish. Flourish will provide the trace elements but not nearly enough iron. The best is a combination of Flourish and Flourish Iron.

Unlike other commercial micro solutions, Seachem have actually separated the purely "trace" micros and the Fe micros into two separate products: Flourish and Flourish Iron.


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

Laith said:


> Just a precision re the Flourish. Flourish will provide the trace elements but not nearly enough iron. The best is a combination of Flourish and Flourish Iron.
> 
> Unlike other commercial micro solutions, Seachem have actually separated the purely "trace" micros and the Fe micros into two separate products: Flourish and Flourish Iron.


Laith,

I know Seachem makes a separate product for Iron but isn't that only if the iron in Flourish isn't enough? For example in my 2 wpg tanks I used to dose 11 ml of Flourish, per Tom Barr's recommendations, and according to the fertilator that gives me .15ppm of iron which is higher than the fertilator recommendation of .10ppm. Are you reffering to high light tanks with more uptake or is there something I'm missing here?

Thanks, Bill


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

I got my dry ferts in the mail today.

I looked at the caculator and came up with: for a 75 gallon tank

KNO3-- 1 tsp will add 11.23 ppm my tank has about 5-7 after a water change which will end up giving me 16- 18 ppm

KH2PO4-- I didn't order because I don't have a test probably buy Fleet for this tho I believe my water has some according to the CO2 chart

K2SO4-- 1 tsp will add 17.2 ppm

CaCl2-- 3.25 tsps will give me 16.85 ppm should I aim higher as I'm closer to the bottom end

MgSO4.7H2O--2.5 tsps will give me 4.21 ppm

Iron I have flourish and assume it will meet the needs

Any suggestions? Would you increase any of the amounts?

I haven't bough Excel yet, I'll find some tomorrow as the store I was at didn't carry it.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The 0.1 ppm that is suggested on the fertilator should probably be taken off or changed. Many people here dose many times that. This is one nutrient that is almost meaninless to test for. I find my 46g tank with about 2-2.5 wpg needs about 15 ml/week of Flourish iron in addition to about 40 ml of Floruish. I judge the response by looking at new leaves on fast-growing stem plants. It's easiest to see in my ludwigia arcuata (not really red without enough Fe) and in my Hydrocotyle leukocephala (yellow between green veins with insufficent concentration). I might be wrong here, but I remember seeing somewhere that the fertilator is giving incorrect info regarding Fe from Flourish. Regular Flourish has hardly any at all.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

As for the amount of iron in Flourish the bottle says .32% of souble iron.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

IceH2O said:


> Help!! I'm being hijacked!!!
> 
> I'd appreciate help on my problem guys.


Huh??????????????

Suit yourself regarding the iron.. I find that my tank needs much more than regular Flourish provides, that's all.

Your NO3 calc's look pretty good. Most people don't supplement K beyond what comes with KNO3. I used to dose K2SO4, but don't anymore.

If you're going to use fleets for phosphates that's perfectly fine. Off the top of my head I know that for my 46g (assuming 40g water column) that 1 ml will gives me 0.87 ppm. Taking your water column to be 65g, .........quick math............ 1 ml will give you 0.54 ppm. For convenience say 2 ml = 1 ppm in your tank.

What are the GH and KH of your tank? If your GH is above 6 or so I don't think you'll need to supplement either Ca or Mg. My tapwater is GH 2, so I use 3 tsp of Seachem Equilibirum per 20g at WC. I'll admit that this gives me loads of extra K too, which played into my decision to stop K2SO4.

Hope this helps.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

I have a low GH of around 2 or 3. Its hard to tell when the color change actually happens. My KH is 3 and PH is 6.8.

So the caculations are correct.. Now would I take a gallon of water out of my tank and mix all the ferts into it and then dump it back in? 

Since I'm on the low end of medium and no injection I'd assume a weekly dosing would be sufficent.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

No need to take out a gallon. I actually mix up a solution of KNO3 and fleets in a 60ml syringe. I set it up so that 7.5 ml every other day ends up giving me around 12 ppm NO3 & 3 ppm PO4 / week. I have a ton of fish though so others might need more. You want to make it as easy as possible on yourself.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

How long should I wait after dosing to see if I need more of anything?

What tests do you guys use or is it all by plant response?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Withb this level of light and + CO2 gas, you can have a buit more variation for both the gas and the NO3 dosing etc.

Many folks simply do not realize how flexible lower light tanks really are.
I had a 1.6w/gal tank with NO FL's lights, the tank was one of the easiest of all tanks.

I dosed 2x a week, 1/2 to 1/4 dosing amounts of basic EI.
50% weekly water change, good CO2.

Very easy to maintain, nice growth, no worry about the dosing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

stcyrwm said:


> Laith,
> 
> I know Seachem makes a separate product for Iron but isn't that only if the iron in Flourish isn't enough? For example in my 2 wpg tanks I used to dose 11 ml of Flourish, per Tom Barr's recommendations, and according to the fertilator that gives me .15ppm of iron which is higher than the fertilator recommendation of .10ppm. Are you reffering to high light tanks with more uptake or is there something I'm missing here?
> 
> Thanks, Bill


That's what I thought too but see this thread:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...flourish-did-you-know.html?highlight=Flourish

As you can see in the thread, Seachem stated:

"Flourish is designed as a trace element supplement. When following the dosage on the bottle the following is how much iron you are adding with each product

Flourish has 0.0064 mg/L (ppm) of Iron per 5 mL in 250 L
Flourish Iron has 0.2 mg/L (ppm) of Iron per 5 mL in 200 L

So as you can see Flourish Iron adds a lot more Iron. Our dosing chart recommends to add 1 cap of Flourish Iron per 50 gallons every day."


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

Thanks Laith,

I appreciate the clarification on the Flourish & iron. It's not something I had picked up on before.

Bill


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

I'm having a hard time getting the CaCl2 to dissolve, is it going to be bad to drop into the tank not fully dissolved? Will the fish eat it and die?

Greg messed up my order and sent Calcium carbonate instead of KNO3. My NA reading is 10 ppm is this going to be okay if I don't dose any phosphate, I'm not sure what numbers it appears in my water but there has to be some according to the CO2 chart which shows I have 14 ppm of CO2, which we all know is hogwash.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Strange, CaCl2 should dissolve very easily (unless you're adding so much you've reached saturation).

You sure it's CaCl2 and not CaCO3? CaCO3 takes forever to dissolve.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

Unless the bag is mislabeled its CaCl2, Calcium chloride. It looks like flakes not powder.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

Been reading some posts that deal with EI, does it also work with Non CO2 tanks?


Any tips from post 1 to now would be appreciated. I did mix a batch and added to the tank Sunday

K2SO4-- 1 tsp (17.2 ppm)

CaCl2-- 4 tsps (22.47 ppm)

MgSO4.7H2O--2.5 tsps (4.21 ppm)

My Nitrates were already 10 ppm

and will add some flourish tonight. Still need Excel..

Can already see new growth on the plants..

My PH is 6.8 and KH around 3 -4 which leaves me on the low side of CO2. Should I dose Excel daily/ every other day to help with CO2 levels?

Since I'm low light low CO2 and not high level would I be better off taking my preposted measurements and cutting them in half and dosing twice a week dry ferts (Sat and Wed) and flourish (Sun, Tues,Thurs)?


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## upikabu (Sep 2, 2005)

What's your fish stocking level and how often do you feed?
Reason I ask is if you have decent fish stock, you may be able to get away with once a week dosing of Flourish & macros without Excel. I have a 1.7wpg, no-CO2 42g tank that's been running for a while with just weekly doses of Flourish, Equilibrium, and small amounts of macros. Fish & food waste provide most of the nutrients. Plants are happy (albeit relatively slow growth), hardly any visible algae. Water change every month or two when I need to prune.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

I have 2 clown loaches about 3-4 inches, 2 senegal birchirs 5-6 inches and 4 dwarf gourmais about 2 inches.

I feed them twice a day.

Water changes of 33-50 % weekly, Sand substrate and about 50% full of plants .

These are my plants:

Red Ludwigia bunches (spread out)
Java Ferns (many plantlets)
Wisteria ( spread )
amazons (4 melon 1 amazon)
Bocapa caroliniania ( spread )
red indica
Microsword
Java moss
Red temples
Corkscrew Vals
Dwarf Sags
1 apongeton undulata

Its a 75 gallon tank.


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## upikabu (Sep 2, 2005)

I'd start with 1-2x week dose of both micros & macros (don't forget the P) and go from there. Since you're doing weekly water changes, Excel (daily or every other day) would probably suit you better. I dose Excel daily in my smaller tank along with 2x dose/week of both macros & micros (alternating days). Good luck!


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

Finally the Excel came in.

I did a pwc today and redosed my Macros and added Excel. Is there a reason to not dose my micros today? I notice most people dose on alternating days. Aren't my nutrients out of whack at the moment?


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

Another question or 2:

Is there a way to test how much CO2 Excel is putting into the tank?

I'm assuming it doesn't lower PH to counter KH to make CO2.

Also the water out of my tap is PH 6 and after it degasses rises to 6.8. Does this CO2 degassing get used by the plants or does it just disipate?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

IceH2O said:


> Another question or 2:
> 
> Is there a way to test how much CO2 Excel is putting into the tank?
> 
> ...


Excel does not put CO2 into the tank. It adds a short-chain hydrocarbon that is similar in structure to photosynthetic intermediates. Plants are then able to utilize this as a source of carbon. There is no easy way to test for this. Since Excel is not CO2 it does not lower the pH. Gasseous CO2 lowers pH since a small portion of it reacts with water to form carbonic acid.

If your tapwater is pH 6.0 and degasses to 6.8 then you probably have some dissolved CO2. This is fairly common and may give the plants a little boost before it dissipates, which will probably only take a few hours.

BTW, it's pH, not PH


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