# New to EI, need my numbers checked, etc.



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm just starting out with EI. I've been doing a ton of math, but my chemistry isn't so great; learning this method has been teaching me. I'm trying to start with RO since the local KH is too high and I'm hoping to keep some less sensitive apisto's in spawn, which may require a pH as low as 6.3. The system is high light, CO2 injected, 20g high with what I figure is about 65L water with all that the hard and squishy stuff displaces. Basically this means a crap load of chemicals to work out, and I need double checking.

I'm hoping to add:

CO2: 20-48ppm realistically, though I think my eye is good enough to reduce that error a bit with the 4kh drop checker solution.
NO3: 10ppm. I'm targeting for a max of 20ppm since there's some fair bioload, which will fluctuate with spawns.
K+: 10ppm
PO4:1.5ppm
Fe: .15ppm
Mg: 5ppm

For the other trace elements, I'm thinking 15ml/wk Flourish Trace. I'm using it since I've got enough to last me a while all ready, and it doesn't cost all that much on a 20g. I'll probably switch to CSM+B and re-crunch all of this as I move to bigger tanks. I am concerned that the zinc might be overkill, though I know nothing of its toxicity in tropical fish.

I started things off with figuring out Tom Barr's PPM style EI dosing, which looks like:

60 grams KNO3
10 grams of KH2PO4
25 grams of GH booster that I'll be mixing up my self. Looking around and at my fert bags, it's 3:3:1 by weight (I think) of:
K2SO4
CaSO4
MgSO4

all of the above tossed in to 1L DI water

I figured if I added 18ml of this a week in an EI routine, plus the flourish trace and 5ml .5mg/ml Fe from a seperate this should all work out to dosing within maybe a 10% margin of error of what I wanted, plus discrepancies for water displacement.

The exception would be the MgSO4... it looks WAY to low for starting from RO, and I think it may be in part due to Tom recommending TMG/TPN, which works out pretty close to being 2x the strength of flourish trace, with some addition of macros and iron. That and Flourish Trace has no magnesium. I'm also not sure if this MgSO4 from plantfertilizers.com is MgSO4 or MgSO4-4H2O. I'm figuring I'll need more than 10x what's called for if I want to be able to use 18ml/week to add 5ppm Mg. Anyone have any ideas? Should this stuff have its own bottle to avoid precipitating in the other? Am I forgetting any other elements?

-Philosophos

Edit: realised that I forgot KH and calcium in general. Is it anything worse than adding the appropriate amount of caco3 at water change time?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ok, scrap most of that. All i need to know is how much CaSO4 will effect KH, if at all. Any good sites on calculating KH would be nice.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

Philosophos said:


> Ok, scrap most of that. All i need to know is how much CaSO4 will effect KH, if at all. Any good sites on calculating KH would be nice.


that does not affect KH at all. KH is carbonate hardness and plaster of paris doesnt have any. Only compounds that have carbonate (CO3) or bicarbonate (HCO3) affect that type of hardness. KH comes from from the German "Karbonathaerte."


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

thank you for the reply! I can't believe I didn't take the time to look up the wikipedia article  seems like every dry fert has a better source than the hobby its self. I think I just paid 10x the amount i needed to. I'll look at it in the morning, maybe I got lucky and paid for finely crushed anhyrdite and there won't be much H2O to deal with that way. It's nice to know that there's a calcium source that won't mess with the alkalinity. Also, thanks for the origin of the word... I have always wondered why we call it KH instead of alkalinity in fish keeping, and tagging along with the dGH makes sense. I wonder where it came from in the German language; it looks like a literal translation between the two.

one last question... where can I find a good guide for permanent hardness and how various elements contribute to it? Mainly it'd be the K2SO4, CaSO4 and MgSO4. Is it just a matter of figuring out the bonds and counting up the deficiency based on molar mass?

Thanks again.

-Philosophos


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## JamesC (Jul 26, 2005)

Permanent hardness is the amount of calcium and magnesium ions that are not carbonates or hydrogen carbonates. So potassium sulphate doesn't contribute to permanent hardness but calcium sulphate and magnesium sulphate do.

This is how to calculate how much these contribute to dGH. I do everything in litres as it's easier but if you want US Gallons then just multiply the volumes of water by 0.264

*For calcium sulphate dihydrate (gypsum)*
17.9 mg/l CaCO3 = 1 dGH
7.2 mg/l Ca =1 dGH
31.0 mg/l CaSO4.2H2O =1 dGH

So adding 3.1g of Calcium Sulphate dihydrate to 100 litres of water will raise the GH by 1

*For magnesium sulphate heptahydrate (epsom salts)*
15.1 mg/l MgCO3 = 1 dGH
4.3 mg/l Mg =1 dGH
44.1 mg/l MgSO4.7H2O =1 dGH

So adding 4.4g of Magnesium Sulphate heptahydrate to 100 litres of water will raise the GH by 1

James


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Thanks for the numbers! I've been looking for the conversion method for a while. I'm going to go back through my method and figure out where the GH should be sitting. Right now the water parameters and dosing are bouncing around way too much to see what the effects of the current regimine are.

-Philosophos


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## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

"I didn't take the time to look up the wikipedia article seems like every dry fert has a better source than the hobby its self."

What do you mean by this? I'd like to read the article and find cheaper sources.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi lanceduffy,

Welcome to APC!

A lot of the fertilizers and chemicals that we use in the hobby are available from sources outside the hobby. For example if you check the Material Safety Data Sheet for various common products you find: For Nitrogen - KNO3 is the main ingredient in some Stump Removers (*Hi-Yield Stump Remover* for example); For Phosphate - Potassium Phosphate, you can use *Fleet Enema* which is Sodium Phosphate; For Magnesium - MgSO4 is basically *Epsom Salt*; for Calcium - CaCl is the ingredient in *Dri-Z-Air* which is used in dehumidifiers. Always verify ingredients by checking the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) before dosing to make sure the formula / ingredients have not been changed. The Fertilator here at APC can help you figure out equivalent doses for the chemicals you are now using.

Glad you joined us!


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## lanceduffy (Jul 15, 2010)

10-4, thanks!


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