# Are we stunting our crypts?



## rs79

One thing you notice in playing with a lot of crypt pictures is the number of plants in clay pots. Or other smallish containers. Are we stunting our plants by doing this?

I used to play with bonsai wherein you dwarf trees by keeping the roots trimmed and in too small of a pot. Normally what's above the soil is about as big as what's below the soil, that is, the plant is symetrical about the soil line.

I'm as guilty as anybody about putting plants in pots, especially crypts, but looking back over the years when I think of my best successes they've been plants that were free ranging in the substrate. In particular I remember one lace plant that utterly took over a 40 gal tank. When I tore that tank down after a few years I found the roots completely covered the bottom of the tank and I suspect it would have been happiest if it had a cubit meter of substrate. My best luck with crypts ever is the "undulata (?)" thing that completely took over a 30 gallon tank.

Now, if we believe a plant will have a symetry of roots and leaves are we stunting our crypts by putting them in smallish pots? That is how big can we really expect roots to grow in a small pot all curled up. If these were bonsai you'd say "ah yes, this is perfect to keep the stem and leav size small".

Food for thought...

P.S. Jan updated the Crypts pages today.


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## AaronT

Have you tried using the hydroponic net pots with coco fiber liners? They work great because they hold the soil in, but allow roots to escape and water to flow in and out freely.


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## Piscator

A few years ago we planted two batches of crypts in soil substrate covered with gravel; one batch in the tank bottom and one in hydroponic pots. The ones in the tank substrate spread by runners 6 to 12 inches within a few months, whereas the ones in pots clumped a little, but were weaker.

I could be that the ones in pots simply ran out of space and nutrients. They filled the pots quite quickly. However, I wonder if the difference in growth could have been due to self-allelopathy (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allelopathy) where the adult plant puts a chemical into the substrate which repels its own runners. Such a strategy would normally encourage the runners to spread out and fill the available environment, giving it a competitive advantage over other species. However, runners confined to a pot would find it irksome.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Aaron, 

Be careful with mesh-like pots since also the runners "escape" and it can get difficult to keep track with correctly labeling them! BTW, to a lesser extent that's also true for other pots where runners can escape from holes in the bottom...


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## Kai Witte

Hello Richard,

I tend to stunt my crypts on purpose (to save space) by limiting nutrient availability.

AFAIK, crypt growth is mainly limited by nutrients rather than available space for the roots which seems to be true for many herbaceous plants (different from trees/shrubs). Depending on available nutrients, it can easily take half a year or longer for the first roots to venture into surrounding water even when a crypt is growing well in a mesh pot with (not nutrient rich) leaf-mold - usually runners are sent out much faster!


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## Kai Witte

BTW, considering the not rarely dense stands of crypts in nature, I'm not convinced that allelopathy may contribute. Self-shading and competition for nutrients might be enough to explain those observations...


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## AaronT

Kai Witte said:


> Hello Aaron,
> 
> Be careful with mesh-like pots since also the runners "escape" and it can get difficult to keep track with correctly labeling them! BTW, to a lesser extent that's also true for other pots where runners can escape from holes in the bottom...


Yes, I plan to keep a close eye on them and snip any runners and put them back in the pot. I used clay pots initially, but I remembered reading that they can contribute to the hardness of the water and shouldn't be used in blackwater setups.

Do you recommend solid plastic pots instead with only holes in the bottom?


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## SKSuser

Kai Witte said:


> AFAIK, crypt growth is mainly limited by nutrients rather than available space for the roots


Well, I'm definately not a crypt expert, but I thought I'd throw in my $0.02 anyway.

Shortly after I had my lone crypt species identified as a similar "undulata thing" to Mr. Sexton's I removed one of the smaller plants (I remember it was a smaller one, as I wanted to save the main plants for if my potting didn't work) from the substrate and added it to a 8-9cm diameter/depth pot. In that pot I mixed aquarium gravel and pool filter sand, about 50/50 ratio, and placed about 1/2 a jobes stick in the bottom.
The other crypts remained in my shallow rather mulmy <--is that even a word?? substrate and I added part of a jobes stick to the general area
That crypt growing in about a 35ccm area is now the largest by far in the tank. I believe it has a runner, which as Piscator mentioned is a lot closer to the mother plant; so close in fact that I wonder if its even a runner sometimes, but I'm not going to pull it up yet to find out. However, I don't notice that its weaker than runners of comprable age.

My "experiment" has been running since about March. Now that my interest is peaked, I'll keep more of any eye on things.


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## rs79

Per paul's warning I won't use plastic in a fishtank. You can get sqaure glass containers that used to hold candles for pennies in thrist shops and they're ideal. I've also made a bunch from surplus glass shelves.

The "undulata ?" plant I have sends out LOOOOOOONG runners. A foot or more.

Using the square glass pots I can get a fairly good amount of nutrients in them. Yet I've found better growth in plants in nothing more tha a plant tank full of plain silica where the roots can spread out even though there was no nutrient bed under the gravel and tank was never fertilized.

Now it's true some plants like amaryllis don't mind being pot bound but I'm wondering to what extent crypts like it. I do notice that I get bigger plants in bigger pots and smaller ones in smaller pots.


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## AaronT

Well, the plastic pots are for my emersed setups only, no fish or fauna to be found. If I'm planted Crypts submersed they just go straight into the substrate.


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## rs79

Another data point: on the APD list today "Raj" observed that WEN planted in pots or in tanks with shallow gravel didn't get nearly as big as plants planted in deep gravel.


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## HeyPK

I have seen also that submersed crypts grow larger when not confined to pots. Although, given good lighting, nutrition, and lots of time they can crowd their pots almost to the point of breaking them. The pot to the left in the picture (55 gallon tank) has C. crispatula v. balansae, and when I finally got around to replanting, the plants were so root bound that I could not separate them from each other. They came out in a block that was like a brick. I had to rip out the rhizomes, leaving almost all their roots behind.


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## ruki

Clay Pots can and do dwarf the crypts a bit. Perhaps it's something of a bonsai thing.

Mesh pots work better for me. They are also square which allows one to think of a modular approach to aquascaping. Still working on this concept though


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## Kai Witte

Hello Aaron,



> Yes, I plan to keep a close eye on them and snip any runners and put them back in the pot.


That's a lot of work...



> I used clay pots initially, but I remembered reading that they can contribute to the hardness of the water and shouldn't be used in blackwater setups.


I'm not fond of them (reasons including weight and wasting space); soaking them in acid should work if you prefer them.



> Do you recommend solid plastic pots instead with only holes in the bottom?


There are so many variables contributing to what works best for each of us that I won't recommend any. Try several approaches and sort out what works best for you. Having said that, I have to admit that I'm mainly using closed plastic pots (actually cut-off rectangular laboratory bottles) - that really helps to keep track of things when you're dealing with a crowded collection of decent size... 

For smaller plants I'm also using commercial plastic pots (70x70x70 mm or even smaller ones) with a few holes but this is more for establishing runners/etc. and I make sure that no runners escape or rather move them on to closed pots (75x75x120 mm or larger).


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## ruki

One more data point for pots.

I've found that plastic Dannon 6 ounce Yogurt cups work pretty well for starting new plants of many types. I use a soldering iron (yes, I'm a total geek) to poke/melt holes in them since a drill tends to crack the container. What's nice is that you can have a cheap array of identically sized pots that works very well for slowly dropping the water level to convert a number of submersed plants to immersed simultaneously.

The larger yogurt tubs should work for crypts, but these are a bit too tall, so I cut them down and then use a belt sander to smooth down the top. You need to remove the ground-up fringe from the edge of the pot since this texture works well for starting up algae of the fuzzy consistency.

For homemade larger pots, I usually use two options for home made/modified pots.
(1) restaurant take-out containers
In my area Asian take-out restaurants use thicker almost clear plastic containers for soup. These are thicker and less brittle than yogurt containers and are more forgiving when cutting down and belt-sanding smooth.

(2) Thick plastic hydroponic pots. These are square and work very well when cutting them down to a shorter size and belt sanding them smooth. Extra holes can be poked/burned with a soldering iron.


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## DelawareJim

I'm with Ruki on the yogurt cups. A 4 oz. or 6 oz. cup with 8 1/8 inch holes around the bottom make great starter/give away pots. After a couple of uses, I just drop them in the recycle bin.

Aaron, I've been thinking about switching to square pots to maximize my space as Kai does. I mentioned to Sean at last Saturday's GWAPA meeting that I can get 2.5 or 3 inch square Kord nursery pots wholesale but I have to buy a case lot (about 500 pots). I don't think you, me, Sean, and Ghazanfar combined could use 500 pots in a life-time. I did give the wholesaler my number with instructions to call me if they part out a broken or damamged case.

Cheers.
Jim


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## AaronT

Are the Kord nursery pots heavy duty or something like that? I've seen the 3" square ones online pretty cheap at ~ $0.35 a pot. I figure I need about 40 to keep me busy for the next 2-3 years.


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## DelawareJim

They are the same thickness as a plastic pot you would buy at a garden center. Here's the description. Web stores are most likely buying cases and parting out the pots individually.

http://www.itml.com/prodDetail.php?pd=1152

Cheers.
Jim


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## rs79

Is it time for Paul to remind us of his plastics disaster again?


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## SKSuser

Probably,
I was about to ask, or worse yet use the search feature, and then lazyness got the better of me.


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## AaronT

rs79 said:


> Is it time for Paul to remind us of his plastics disaster again?


What do you suggest then? I have to use a pot of some sort. One person is telling me no clay and another is telling me no plastic. What's left? Glass pots sounds expensive when you start talking needing 40 of them at least. Any ideas?


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## Purrbox

DelawareJim said:


> Aaron, I've been thinking about switching to square pots to maximize my space as Kai does. I mentioned to Sean at last Saturday's GWAPA meeting that I can get 2.5 or 3 inch square Kord nursery pots wholesale but I have to buy a case lot (about 500 pots). I don't think you, me, Sean, and Ghazanfar combined could use 500 pots in a life-time. I did give the wholesaler my number with instructions to call me if they part out a broken or damamged case.


Perhaps you could do a group buy with other members of APC? I know that I was looking at getting those 3" Square Kord Pots for quite awhile, but ended up getting some less sturdy ones elsewhere since I could get both the 3" and 4" square pots from the same place. I'd still like to get some sturdy ones for when these start to break down.


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## rs79

I use glass pots. You can get square ones (MUCH better than round when you have scads of them, the gaps between round pots are a disaster) in thrift shops for 10 to 25 cents. They're sold with wax and a wick in them new for about a buck and people throw them away in one of the most wasteful exercises ever. Enough people give them to Sally Ann and Goodwill that they show up though. 

I've made them out of (free) salvage glass too. The nice thing is they're so thick they don't break when when you drop them (like clay) or get old and brittle and crack (like plastic). Plus you get to see what's going on in the substrate. No sueprises when a plant dies and you discover for whatever reason the bottom of the pot is black and fetid.


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## AaronT

rs79 said:


> I use glass pots. You can get square ones (MUCH better than round when you have scads of them, the gaps between round pots are a disaster) in thrift shops for 10 to 25 cents. They're sold with wax and a wick in them new for about a buck and people throw them away in one of the most wasteful exercises ever. Enough people give them to Sally Ann and Goodwill that they show up though.
> 
> I've made them out of (free) salvage glass too. The nice thing is they're so thick they don't break when when you drop them (like clay) or get old and brittle and crack (like plastic). Plus you get to see what's going on in the substrate. No sueprises when a plant dies and you discover for whatever reason the bottom of the pot is black and fetid.


Do they have holes in the bottom or do you keep each one with a certain amount of water? I prefer to have pots with holes in the bottom. I can see how you'd like the glass pots though. Got any pictures to share?


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## rs79

Pictures? You ask much my friend 

I have some... *someplace*. It's probably easier to take more. I'll do that soon.


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## Kai Witte

Folks, don't throw out the baby with the bath water!

Sure, some plastics are nasty and downright environmentally dangerous. Some are not though. Have a look in your show tank - no plastic anywhere? 

If you have any university or research institutes nearby, hook up with the life science departments and ask who's doing cell culture. You'll usually find enough plastic containers thrown away that you can give a try.

It's still worth to test any plastics you plan to use in a tank. More later...


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## DelawareJim

Purrbox said:


> Perhaps you could do a group buy with other members of APC? I know that I was looking at getting those 3" Square Kord Pots for quite awhile, but ended up getting some less sturdy ones elsewhere since I could get both the 3" and 4" square pots from the same place. I'd still like to get some sturdy ones for when these start to break down.


I was thinking about that, but then did a balance sheet. I've got to store them at home somewhere, my time counting them out, boxing, driving to the post office, how would I deal with the person who only wants 2 or 3, the person who whines they weren't what they thought they were even though I posted a picture of the pots, and the next thing you know, even selling them at retail prices, the hassle isn't worth the pennies-a-piece I would make on them. Which is why they're so hard to find. You've got to sell thousands to make them worth your while.

Cheers.
Jim


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## Purrbox

Yeah I can see where that would be a pain. About the only thing that would help is to get enough people upfront to split up the order and require a minimum order per person. Ah well, it was a nice thought.


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## DelawareJim

Still thinking about that. I'm thinking about posting to gage the interest in pots and prolly taking pre-orders. While not looking promising right now it's not dead yet.

Cheers.
Jim


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## AaronT

I found a place that has the 3" pots for cheap. I went ahead and ordered all that I need. They're only $0.19 a piece + $5.20 shipping.  I emailed the company to make sure and they are indeed the Kord pots.

http://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/single.asp?ID=1210


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## HeyPK

> Is it time for Paul to remind us of his plastics disaster again?


It wasn't so much a disaster, but I did see some negative effects of some plastics on some species. The plastics were soda pop bottle plastic and microwave food tray plastic. Many species were hardly affected. On the other hand, I almost lost Hygrophila corymbosa v. compacta in a soda pop bottle where it shrank down to the size of duckweed. When I transferred the plants, soil and the water from the soda pop bottle to a glass jar, the plants recovered and grew up to eventually push the top off. I lost C. crispatula balansae in the microwave food trays, but other crypts seem hardly affected. I stay away from plastic containers because, with glass trays, I know there is no risk of unknown compounds affecting the plants. On the other hand, in two of my tanks I still have the microwave trays in there after quite a few years, because the plants seem to be doing well there.


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## wiste

> The plastics were soda pop bottle plastic and microwave food tray plastic.


A downside to (re-using) plastic is the potential for bacterial contamination.
E.g. it is not recommended that you refill and reuse plastic water bottles from which you drink for this reason. 
The risk seems low but it might be better to avoid the reuse of used food containers for plants.


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## ruki

I'm betting that the risk from plastic contamination dramatically increases as pH decreases...

"That's funny, my XXXX totally dissolved in my pH 3.0 aquarium. How did that happen?"


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## rs79

Ectually if memory serves plastics are more affected by basic solutions, not acidic ones.

I found my pics of some of the glass planters I made:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/c/CIL/


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## DelawareJim

wiste said:


> A downside to (re-using) plastic is the potential for bacterial contamination.
> E.g. it is not recommended that you refill and reuse plastic water bottles from which you drink for this reason.
> The risk seems low but it might be better to avoid the reuse of used food containers for plants.


Actually a 10 percent bleach solution, or either soft scrub or liquid cascade (both have bleach in them) do wonders for cleaning and sterilizing plastic pots and food containers. The soft scrub and liquid cascade and an old toothbrush works best for removing mineral deposits too.

Cheers.
Jim


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## rs79

Wuss. I use hot vingear to remove mineral stains, and hydochloric acid (outdoors!) on tough ones. And full strength bleach to sterilize stuff.

I have the hands and ruined clothes to prove it, too.


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## DelawareJim

rs79 said:


> Wuss. I use hot vingear to remove mineral stains, and hydochloric acid (outdoors!) on tough ones. And full strength bleach to sterilize stuff.
> 
> I have the hands and ruined clothes to prove it, too.


Damn straight!

Cough, cough, never, cough, tried the hot vinegar, cough.

You pick the most fun stuff to play with! But look at the upside; soft hands, no finger prints, and all those holey jeans are right in style now![smilie=b:

Cheers.
Jim


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## SCMurphy

Hole-y jeans, reminds me of what Organic Chem lab did to my jeans in college.


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## DelawareJim

Physical Chemistry was my nemesis. Only college class I took that had a double curve because it was required for non-P-Chem majors working on their science degree.

Sitting next to a P-Chem major who flunked the mid-term with an 86 while I got an A with a 42 was surreal.

Cheers.
Jim


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## longhornxtreme

Hehe... your P Chem sounds like my O chem experience where the first semester lecture had the pre med pre dent mixed in with the Chem E's. 70% was A for the pre meds but 90% was A for the Chem E's.


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## jazzlvr123

sorry to bring up an old thread, just one question so why are these plastic Kord pots been deemed acceptable but not soda bottle plastic? are the Kord pots made from something that does not stunt the crypt? im a little confused becuase they say Don't use clay or plastic pots but it seems that these Kord ones are widely used, are they made of different materials?


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## rs79

Not all plastics are created equally. Some are food safe some are not,

PK found a couple of years ago long term use of soda bottles kills crypts.


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## Kai Witte

A quick experiment to exclude really bad plastics is to pour boiling water water over it and let it sit for several minutes with a lid on. (Or drop it into a cooking pot if you get permission.) BTW, it's well possible that the plastic will deform and become useless - so, you'll also learn wether you can sterilize them by heat later on... 

If the plastic smells (don't burn your nose with the hot vapor!), it is suspect. If there's only a little smell, you may want to do a growing experiment separately before switching your whole collection to the new pots. The plastic pots I'm currently using do give off a little smell when tested newly bought. I'm trying to store them well before use and got no complaints so far...


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