# how to sex bolivian rams?



## feistyfish (Aug 13, 2006)

just wondering, but how do you sex bolivian rams? ive searched on here and online, but didnt really come up with anything. thanks in advance


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

feistyfish said:


> just wondering, but how do you sex bolivian rams? ive searched on here and online, but didnt really come up with anything. thanks in advance


The males are slightly larger and show longer extensions to the unpaired fins. But this is in mature individuals.

Do you have some and want to sex them, or are you trying to pick out a pair at the LFS?
If it's the latter then don't! Talk to the guy in the store, tell him you want a pair and that you'd like to take 6 and let them pair off, then return the 4 spares. This way the fish will pick and you'll get a much stronger pair. He'll alomst certainly agree as he'll think you'll lose the lot and never bring any back!


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## feistyfish (Aug 13, 2006)

i actually adopted them from carl, the scape president. my guess is both are male, but seem to be quite a friendly pair. 

is the buy more and return some standard practice at most LFS? i hadn't heard of such buying techniques before. 
thanks.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

feistyfish said:


> i actually adopted them from carl, the scape president. my guess is both are male, but seem to be quite a friendly pair.
> 
> is the buy more and return some standard practice at most LFS? i hadn't heard of such buying techniques before.
> thanks.


It is for me with my LFS! I don't think a lot of people do it, but most good FSs will do it if you talk to them and tell them why you want to do it. I mainly buy dwarf cichlids and before that tangayikans. It's a big help to let them form their own pairs in a biggish tank.

Are your two fish fighting? What size is your tank? Bear in mind a male cichlid will try and defend a territory size roughly 10 times his length so unless you've got two 'friendly' blokes  then I think it's either a pair of two girls. I've never kept these, but bought some for my next door neighbour's 2ft tank and they were a pair and were very peaceful. Can't see two males being that harmonious.


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## feistyfish (Aug 13, 2006)

Nope the two fish don't really nip at each other except for an occasional chasing. in addition they most certainly dont keep their territory size against each other.

i know these arent the best of pics but they show their coloration and



















best buddies









who follow each other everywhere


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

IMO you've got a pair there.

The larger one has clear extensions to the caudal fin, a pretty good indicator he's a bloke, and the smaller one doesn't have these.

The smaller one may be a smaller, less mature male, but I really don't think so. They wouldn't follow each other around if they were both male.

Get spoiling them with lots of nice food (live and frozen food) and then sit back and await the patter of tiny fins!!!


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## feistyfish (Aug 13, 2006)

haha thanks ed! i know they werent the greatest pics but i hope you're right cause thatd be awesome. ill try to get better pics as the tank gsa clears up.


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## toddnbecka (Sep 20, 2006)

Simply looking at the way they swim together in the pics strongly suggests they're a pair. Two males wouldn't be so sociable together.


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## miles (Apr 26, 2006)

i'd have to agree it looks like you have a pair. 

sexual dimorphism in pic 3 is stark, the male in front, showing the male gold/yellow sheen. in pic 2, the fish on the right is sporting what looks like a female ovipositor--have the pair spawned yet?

the male is usually quite rough with the female when spawning. they will jaw lock. they can do a good job of moving substrate and uprooting plants. good parents, though, i would let the parents care for the fry. these guys are like convicts--very prolific and very hardy. so much easier to breed sucessfully than blue rams.


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## feistyfish (Aug 13, 2006)

thanks for the info.

they havent spawned yet nor have they shown any spawning type behavior. and im not quite sure what an ovipositor looks like.


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## miles (Apr 26, 2006)

feistyfish said:


> thanks for the info.
> 
> they havent spawned yet nor have they shown any spawning type behavior. and im not quite sure what an ovipositor looks like.


it looks like a tube; it is fatter and shorter in females, longer and skinnier in males. eggs and sperm are emitted through these tubes.

pic 2 and the last pic suggest spawning-type behavior. sure signs: intense color, head to tail batting, gill plates flared out, ventral fins spread apart, head shaking, jaw locking, rock cleaning, ovipositor showing.

don't worry, if they are a pair, they will spawn. ive conditioned mine on flake and frozen blood worms and they would spawn every 3 - 4 weeks. you might want to remove the other alti's in the tank--don't need target fish, but dither fish would help.


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## ruger45 (Feb 28, 2007)

I know this does not sound right, but nice pair you got there. LOL


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

I also have a "pair" of Bolivian Rams, F1's. The one in front is the smaller, paler one with longer tail filaments. The one in back is bigger a more colorful topfin. The fin is blacker in the front and it's redder across the top. They get along great. Does it look/sound like a pair? Would BBS help induce a spawn? There are also 2 Corydoras habrosas in the tank. Will that be a problem with breeding?


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## frugalfish (Apr 20, 2005)

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Grenfell_M_altispinosa.html


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

Good article! I was convinced enough to go out and get some buy 1 get one free frozen krill from Jack's on the last day of the sale. 

Thanks!


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## feistyfish (Aug 13, 2006)

turns out my two were in fact a pair. they have about 40 eggs (or what's left of them) since they occasionally take a snack on them on a flat piece of rock in the 60 gallon. The eggs however seem to be opaquish white, so I'm not sure if they're still fertile or fungus-infected. They're continuing their courtship still so my guess is that they'll continue to lay some more eggs as I've watched them survey another new flat rock. 

They are also great parents and take turns guarding the eggs. I'm debating on whether to remove the eggs into a breeder net, but it wont be able to continue their parenting behavior which is actually quite interesting.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Please don't remove the eggs from your cichlids. Cichlids raised without their parents seem to be far more prone to eating their eggs when in someones tanks. Wild angelfish will make excellent parents but look at most captive bred ones. Over here the first imports of A.nijsenni were famously bad parents and they had been artificially reared due to their rarity. While these aren't exactly cast iron conclusive evidence I think it is inevitable that there is an element of learnt behaviour in with some inate heritable instincts, after all it usually takes a new pair a few dry runs until they successfully raise a brood.

Artificial rearing IMO should only be a last resort for rare fish. You rams will raise a brood successfully and make great parents I'm sure.


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## toddnbecka (Sep 20, 2006)

Cichlids in general seem to need a few spawns to figure out they aren't supposed to eat their eggs, but usually get the idea sooner or later. Once they start spawning, they will most likely continue with several more clutches of eggs before taking a break. It's better to leave them to it in the long run. They will learn from their experience, and you won't have several hundred fry of various sizes to raise/rehome.


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