# any deficiency ?



## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

it seems to me that my plants have a deficiency. Plants look distorted.



i'm using K2SO4, KHPO4, Fe & micros, MgSO4
NO3 : 10ppm
PO4 0,5ppm
Fe 0,05ppm

Ca deficiency ? K or Mg overdosing ?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Mg/K+ overdosing takes monster amounts. 10x EI is what you'll see scientists using in the hoagland solutions.

Ca deficiency is code for, "Crap, still not enough CO2" in 99% of cases. We've all been there. Unless you have exceptionally soft tap water and aren't dosing GH booster, you should have enough calcium. Looking at the dusting you have of multiple algae species, the spread of multiple mild deficiencies, etc. I'd say bump the CO2 up a little.

Anyhow, would you care to fill us in on all the other details? Lighting specs (wattage, bulb type, duration), tank dimensions and capacity, substrate, filtration, etc. would help to put things in perspective a little better.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

from the tape :
KH 11
GH about 10 (i have not tested, it's from an old water analysis)

I mix with 2/3 of RO water so KH si about 3 or 4.

I have been dosing K2SO4 and MgSO4 for 3 month to perform PPMD. About 6g K2SO4, 2g MgSO4 each week. I had no PO4 but plants were diying and algae were doing fine... I started PO4 only 2 weeks ago. So maybe K and Mg levels are still very high ?

I change about 30% of 400L each week.

(Algae can be related to the months with PO4 deficiency ? )


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

GSA pops up pretty quick at low levels of PO4.

Your water is hard enough that I'd be very surprised if Ca is an issue.

You can dose K+ through the roof at 40ppm and you still won't get what's happening there.

What's your lighting and CO2 diffusion method look like? Is there anything besides sand to your substrate? I'm suspecting CO2, but if your light is high with low macro dosing and little substrate nutrition then it might be any combination of things.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

substrate is sand only, but on the fist photo the plant is in a plate containing earth and clay.

the tank is 450L (120 gallons), lighting is 4x36W=144W (JBL natur, tropic, osram biolux, all with reflector). Plants were not distorted when i had substrate (years ago). 11h lighting per day.

CO2 is industrial with solenoid. 2bubles per second. Tunze diffuser.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

At most it looks like your nitrates might be a little light. Lacking PO4 definitely isn't great, and it takes time to level out.

144w of what I'm assuming is either T8 or CF shouldn't be giving you CO2 issues even without injection, but you shouldn't have calcium problems either. If you haven't played with a drop checker yet, give it a try. 4KH solution and move it around the tank; see what CO2 levels look like in the most deficient looking areas.

You do have low iron, which I'm guessing means very low micro dosing. Increase some of your nutrients; aim for .5ppm Fe from your micro source, 2ppm PO4. Even see if calcium is the issue for once; use less RO or dose some calcium. Clean out any dead material (including filter) and give it a while. If the issue persists, then it's probably CO2.

In the future, perhaps consider a nutrient loaded substrate with good CEC. Regardless of method, good substrate is hard to argue against.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

I have T8 lighting.

Isn't 2ppm PO4 and 0,5ppm Fe a bit dangerous for fishes ? 
I have discus in the tank.
I fear the consequences of high level of fertilizers...

I fordot to say that hygrophyla polysperma is distorted only where it recieves "intense" light.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I've seen Tom Barr post images of overdosed EI tanks with discus spawning in them. Even regular dry dosed EI calls for dosing about 10ppm of PO4 per week and I've seen discus get along just fine. Inorganic nitrogen and PO4 is perhaps 1/10th or less toxic than what organic NO3/PO4 represents in terms of related compounds. if you look around at the LC50's and NOAEL's at the EPA ECOTOX database.

I'm not a discus keeper, but I spawn apistos out at 20ppm+ NO3, 5-10ppm PO4, etc. To be honest, I've never seen a fish killed by these sort of ranges of fertilizers. At the same time, people strap CO2 to their tanks and gas their discus all the time from the first low tank dump or adjusting CO2 and walking away. CO2 is the biggest killer unique to planted tanks, but people worry about the nutrients for some reason. KNO3 used to be used for salting meat, KH2PO4 is in Gatorade; you can buy almost every fertilizer component in food grade form because it has some sort of application for feeding to people. These are not exceptionally toxic compounds like many pesticides and herbicides; anywhere wood ash, water and animal waste mix you get some KNO3.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

this morning i found 0ppm Fe

I'll try to raise NO3, PO4 and Fe a bit and see how my fishes do.

NO3 to 10/15ppm
PO4 to 1ppm
Fe to 0,2ppm

does that sound ok ?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Sure, give it a try. The Fe should be livable at .2ppm. You may find the PO4 a little lean still; I'd say double that quantity to see decent, stable results. All the same, I understand your concern for your fish; discus aren't cheap. Raise it slowly if doing so will help you keep your sanity, this hobby shouldn't be stressful.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

I read that you talk about "non limiting" nutrients in other discussions.

What does it mean ?
is 10ppm NO3 limiting ? it sound to me that 10ppm is plenty of NO3...
as 1ppm PO4 and 0,1 Fe do...


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

By non-limiting I mean that there's more in the column than plants can make use of. Plants can not make use of nutrients down to 0ppm though; that's what nutrient growth equilibriums are about.

10ppm NO3 probably isn't limiting, and it likely won't become limiting in a hurry given your low light. At the same time, I've seen high light tanks make 10ppm go down to 5ppm in half a week or less with nitrogen deficiencies showing. 

1ppm PO4 is where I've seen levels reduce over a week to cause equilibrium issues; I generally try to push it higher. There's absolutely no substantiated risk in adding PO4 as a pure inorganic compound like KH2PO4 at even 10ppm of PO4 that I know of. 

.2ppm Fe is acceptable, but you could add 5 times the quantity without being remotely close to hurting your fish. Below .1ppm and you find deficiency unless you've got a nutrient rich, iron loaded substrate.

I'm not sure why you're so concerned about adding more PO4 or Fe. If trout can take more without harm given their hypersensitivity due to cold habitats in usually fast running water, I'm not sure why a discus in the warm amazon stained with degrading plant material would be more sensitive. I've never seen anyone substantiate the concern, and in practice I've seen it contradicted by discus keepers dosing EI and having generations spawn out.

Take my advice as you will. Move slow if you do, for your own sanity if nothing else. I would encourage you to make use of the ECOTOX database and ask/search around on thebarrreport.com for discus keepers using EI if you want concrete examples. An honest look around the community will give you a better than just hearing success reports from me.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

Adding PO4 is new for me. 
For a long while i've been told to reduce PO4, NO3, Fe to avoid algae and problems.

Maybe that's why i am so concerned with "such levels" of fertilizers.
I takes some time to change one's ideas...


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

Should i understand that if my plant are distorted near the lighting or old more algae near the ligting, it's because low nutriments becomes limiting in high light ? (but they are not limiting in low light ? so plants look great away from the light ?)


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

Near the light are usually new leaves (on top of a stem), and new leaves are distorted, when they are, because of lack of immobile elements, such as boron and calcium, which cannot be transported from older leaves.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

great !

does it explain the reciepe of CSM+B ? (larger amount of boron)


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

Comparing with what?
At first there wasn't boron in CSM at all, later Plantex begun to add it and called this product CSM+B.
Comparatively with TMG or TPN, I agree, there is more boron (relatively to Fe).
As for distorted new leaves - regarding that there is sufficient Ca and CO2 in your tank (which, I assume, is the case) the next culprit should be boron.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

thanks a lot, this is very helpfull to me. I learn a lot more on APC than on french forums (excuse my english)

right now, i think my problem must be low CO2.
i count only 2 bubles per second in a 450L/120G tank with 144W lighting.

as i read your advices, it seems that i have low everythink (CO2, PO4, Fe...)


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

JeanPierre said:


> Adding PO4 is new for me.
> For a long while i've been told to reduce PO4, NO3, Fe to avoid algae and problems.
> 
> Maybe that's why i am so concerned with "such levels" of fertilizers.
> I takes some time to change one's ideas...


Your understanding is still correct regarding reducing nutrient levels in the water to reduce algal problem. Considering spirulina, a blue-green algae, used in dietary supplement, is rich in protein (nitrogen source), P, K, Fe, and many other minerals. By adding fertilizers in a proper way to foster stronger plant growth, the algae lose out in the end when the plants take over.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

goldier said:


> Your understanding is still correct regarding reducing nutrient levels in the water to reduce algal problem. Considering spirulina, a blue-green algae, used in dietary supplement, is rich in protein (nitrogen source), P, K, Fe, and many other minerals. By adding fertilizers in a proper way to foster stronger plant growth, the algae lose out in the end when the plants take over.


I'm lost.

I should reduce my algae by adding fertilizers to correct level (no overdose) ? Until my plant take over algae will grow because of fertilizers ? then they will die because of plants health, even if fertilizers are still there ?

So i have to fertilize even if algae are present and wait a couple of weeks until plants begin to take over ? Am I rigth ?


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

JeanPierre,

Fertilizing is one of the factors that promote plant health and growth, and should not be used in excess. It seems contradictory that you would add fertilizers when you want to avoid algal problem, especially when algae are very efficient in extracting nutrients from the water. So while you dose the water column and wait for the improvement of plant growth, you would employ other methods to control algae, i.e. scrubbing, water change, using algae-eating fish, shrimps, snails, lighting adjustment, UV, spot treatment with antibiotics, et cetera…

If not for anything else, dosing the water column with Fe can also stimulate algal growth. Perhaps, the better way is to use the tablets for macros and micros at the root zone in the substrate, which has good CEC so algae have little access to nutrients in the water to bloom. Once the plant biomass increases and the plants take off, they can effectively compete with algae, even with water column dosing.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

goldier said:


> So while you dose the water column and wait for the improvement of plant growth, you would employ other methods to control algae, i.e. scrubbing, water change, using algae-eating fish, shrimps, snails, lighting adjustment, UV, spot treatment with antibiotics, et cetera


i do scrubb windows
i do water changes
i have plenty of snails
i cut leaves with a lot of algae
and i have now a good mass of plants
i'm going to had some red cherry shrimps that i have in an another tank
i seriously think about siamensis fish 

i didn't express well : I kill algae until plants take over algae using fertilizers.
So i should continue fertilizers and scrubbing ?

With this method, is there a chance i manage to get rid of the remainig algae ? (wich is filamentous green short algae on windows and on some leaves)


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Adding some siamensis is a good idea. They will devour those filamentous algae and polish the windows and the leaves in no time. You may not need to scrub often.

Fertilizers can only do so much. You have a challenge when using sand substrate, which is low in CEC. From your specs, your lighting is 144 W for 120 gal (450 L) - that’s a little more than 1 Watt per gallon. If proper fertilizing can not help with plant growth, would you consider increasing the lighting level to at least 2 Watt per gallon (0.5 W per litter) and see how the plants respond?


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

the plants did respond to fertilisers. I have a lot of fast growing plants (lemnophila sessiliflora, hygrophilla polysperma and difformis). I need to cut some of them each week...

I've begun to add PO4 only 3 weeks ago. 
I can see real effect on plant growth. Some algae grow but not as fast as they used to.

So am I on the right way ? (i still have to consider siamensis to do the cleaning)


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Très bien. It looks like you are on the right way as the plants are growing faster and the algae are slowing down. Give it another few weeks and see. You may not get rid of all algae, but as long as the algae are under controlled, consider mission accomplished. Although adding some siamensis will definitely cut your work down a lot. When they clear the algae, you may need to feed them.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

Maybe that my K that is too low : 8g/week (400L) but i have low light. I've decided to add 12g/week right now to see if there is a change.

I am still thinking about Ca. Il saw that Ca level must be higher than K level :
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/aqua/fertilizers/map.htm
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/aqua/fertilizers/CalevelsshouldbehigherthanKorMg..html#Topic55

So is there a minimum Ca level or GH for a planted tank ?


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

I wouldn't lower GH below 4, Ca 20 ppm and Mg 5 ppm.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

Is that potassium deficiency ?


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## DIY Plant Guy (May 15, 2010)

*Any deficiency?*

Im experiencing plant deficiency on some of my plants as well, I have a flourite base and just installed this 4 slotted shop light above my tank featuring 4 t8, 32 watt, 6500k, 78cri bulbs which total up to 2.3 wpg. I do not dose or co2 YET but if i need too I could only feasibly dose flourish. My swords look brown from my original standard hood but they havent grown since the new hood was attached. I dont know if sword growth takes time or if their is some type of deficiency...should i trim their original leaves?


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

JeanPierre said:


> Is that potassium deficiency ?


The holes have no yellowish edges, so it looks to me rather like someone had gnawed the leaves.
Do you have Ancistrus or snails?


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't have ancistrus

I have snails, but the holes enlarge over time. And yesterday the big hole was necrotic tissue. Maybe a snail eat it, but it was already dead.

The biggest hole is unusual. But little holes are widely spread over the tank.


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

I've looked at your picture once again and yes, I'm sure it's no deficiency but mechanical damage.
What kind of snails do you have?


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't know the names in english, but here are some pictures of the kind of snails i have :
























on the last picture, i have both (it seems the one on the right may eat some plants)


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

The first is MTS (Malaysian Trumpet Snail), second is Ramshorn snail and on the third picture are two species of Physa.
Ramshorn and Physa can eat plants.


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

Maybe it's my snails... 

the big hole is unique. But i can see pinholes often on hygrophyla polysperma. Some old leaves of heterentera Zosteriflora seem to die too (they become gray).

I'll push a bit K, i feel like K dosing too much K is not too dangerous.
I'll dose micro on a daily basis.
I'll test my GH in the coming week to see what it looks like.

And I'll keep in touch


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

I tested my tape water :
GH 10
KH 9

I am using 70% RO water at the moment (KH 3, GH 3)

Should i raise GH a bit ? How much RO would you use ?


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

GH 4 or 5 would be better to be certain that your plants never lack calcium. 
RO 50-60%.


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