# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Techno-Geek Planted Aquaria



## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Cross posted on Aquatic Plant Central too.

Don't get me wrong, I love a great tank, no matter if it's high tech, low tech or no tech. I'm in it for the fish so to speak, but at the same time I am a techno geek, I live for gadgets and Rube Goldbergesque contraptions. In that vein I've been planning a planted tank now for a few months and am about to embark on the purchase and construction of one heck of toy. I'm writing this for a few reasons, one, to get my ideas down, two to bounce said ideas off others to make sure 'm not making any huge errors in my thinking and three, cause us techno-weenie-geek types like to share. I already know that for every high priced overkill item or method I choose there is a DIY or low tech or even free way to accomplish the same thing, the Techno-Geek in me ignores such trivialities.

First off I guess I should describe my ultimate goal. Discus, lush plant growth and of course a killer looking aquascape.

The Tank AGA 210 72x24x29 drilled, with the new "MegaOverflows". I choose a drilled tank as I hate all seeing all the stuff one needs, hanging in a tank. This way I can keep all that out of the tank and in the Oceanic Model 3 sump. 2 Iwaki pumps will be employed to move water, an MD70 will be the main return. My calculations show an approximate 15' head taking in account not only actual static head but also frictional losses from fittings and the like. This will provide in the order of 1300 GPH in theory. The tanks overflows are only rated at 1200 GPH, giving me some fudge factor in my pump sizing and the need for good quality valves, less I overflow the tank. The other, MD 55, will push about 800GPH through a group of items, CO2 reactor, UV and chiller. I'll construct a nifty manifold with valves to each device individually as well as a 4th leg to connect to a garden hose, facilitating water changes.

HVAC System: I keep the house at 65ish in the winter and 82ish in the summer. To that end I will need some decent heat to keep the tanks at 80-82F in the winter months. 2 300W Ebo Jager heaters controlled by a Medusa controller will keep the temp up. I'll need some cooling in the summer, that to be handled by 1/5 HP Artica Chiller, with built in controller. I also plan on using substrate heating, however that should not have much of an effect on overall tank temps.

Lighting: This will probably generate more controversy then anything I plan. AB Aquaspace light. 72" w 3 5000k 250W HQI metal halide and 4 24W actinic PC. Yeah 850W is a bit of overkill but this will allow me to suspend the unit 12-18" over an open tank, the plan is to let plants grow out and mingle with the bog plants I plan on using outside the tank. I'll get into that later. While the actinic is more attuned to reef-keeping and could potentially cause some algae problems I really like the way they make the tank look. Iridescent fish scales look incredible under this light, I hope to be able to capture some of that on with my digital camera and share.

CO2 I'm leaning towards the JBJ regulator combo getup controlled by a Milwaukee pH controller. The Aqua medic reactor is on my list and I have a call into a dude that builds incredible quality skimmers, Kalk reactors and all that acrylic stuff for reef folks. 10lb tank to be sourced locally, the local brew shop has them, 50 bucks the first time for a new used tank and then you just swap a filled one for the princely sum of 6 bucks.

UV: When you combine the alleged propensity of actinic lights facilitating algae with Discus and my admittedly heavy handed stocking plans, UV looks like a good prophylactic. Aqua Ultraviolet 15W w/wiper. I think the wiper deal is pretty nifty and actually useful to.

Substrate: I figure about 300lb of substrate will yield a 3" depth. Bottom 3rd to be inert sand, middle 3rd a mix of SeaChem's Florite and Florite Red, top 3rd mainly Eco-Complete with some SeaChem onyx sand. As stated earlier substrate heating will be used. I'm just not sure if I want the Tunze 24v system of the FishVet 120v one. They both suit my needs in their longest most powerful runs, I just worry about a 120v system running through the tank.

Misc: Grounding probe. I hate getting shocked by tanks, been there, done that, soiled the T shirt. GFI protected power strips mounted high in the stand, plugged into 2 different GFI fused 20A circuits. AGA pine stand, refinished to smooth rough edges with semi gloss black exterior, polyurethane, interior to be painted white, and coated with polyurethane. Mount 2 24" under counter florescent fixtures so I can see when working in the sump. Timers for the lights.

Thoughts, comments, glaring errors?

Thanks

gnatster


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Cross posted on Aquatic Plant Central too.

Don't get me wrong, I love a great tank, no matter if it's high tech, low tech or no tech. I'm in it for the fish so to speak, but at the same time I am a techno geek, I live for gadgets and Rube Goldbergesque contraptions. In that vein I've been planning a planted tank now for a few months and am about to embark on the purchase and construction of one heck of toy. I'm writing this for a few reasons, one, to get my ideas down, two to bounce said ideas off others to make sure 'm not making any huge errors in my thinking and three, cause us techno-weenie-geek types like to share. I already know that for every high priced overkill item or method I choose there is a DIY or low tech or even free way to accomplish the same thing, the Techno-Geek in me ignores such trivialities.

First off I guess I should describe my ultimate goal. Discus, lush plant growth and of course a killer looking aquascape.

The Tank AGA 210 72x24x29 drilled, with the new "MegaOverflows". I choose a drilled tank as I hate all seeing all the stuff one needs, hanging in a tank. This way I can keep all that out of the tank and in the Oceanic Model 3 sump. 2 Iwaki pumps will be employed to move water, an MD70 will be the main return. My calculations show an approximate 15' head taking in account not only actual static head but also frictional losses from fittings and the like. This will provide in the order of 1300 GPH in theory. The tanks overflows are only rated at 1200 GPH, giving me some fudge factor in my pump sizing and the need for good quality valves, less I overflow the tank. The other, MD 55, will push about 800GPH through a group of items, CO2 reactor, UV and chiller. I'll construct a nifty manifold with valves to each device individually as well as a 4th leg to connect to a garden hose, facilitating water changes.

HVAC System: I keep the house at 65ish in the winter and 82ish in the summer. To that end I will need some decent heat to keep the tanks at 80-82F in the winter months. 2 300W Ebo Jager heaters controlled by a Medusa controller will keep the temp up. I'll need some cooling in the summer, that to be handled by 1/5 HP Artica Chiller, with built in controller. I also plan on using substrate heating, however that should not have much of an effect on overall tank temps.

Lighting: This will probably generate more controversy then anything I plan. AB Aquaspace light. 72" w 3 5000k 250W HQI metal halide and 4 24W actinic PC. Yeah 850W is a bit of overkill but this will allow me to suspend the unit 12-18" over an open tank, the plan is to let plants grow out and mingle with the bog plants I plan on using outside the tank. I'll get into that later. While the actinic is more attuned to reef-keeping and could potentially cause some algae problems I really like the way they make the tank look. Iridescent fish scales look incredible under this light, I hope to be able to capture some of that on with my digital camera and share.

CO2 I'm leaning towards the JBJ regulator combo getup controlled by a Milwaukee pH controller. The Aqua medic reactor is on my list and I have a call into a dude that builds incredible quality skimmers, Kalk reactors and all that acrylic stuff for reef folks. 10lb tank to be sourced locally, the local brew shop has them, 50 bucks the first time for a new used tank and then you just swap a filled one for the princely sum of 6 bucks.

UV: When you combine the alleged propensity of actinic lights facilitating algae with Discus and my admittedly heavy handed stocking plans, UV looks like a good prophylactic. Aqua Ultraviolet 15W w/wiper. I think the wiper deal is pretty nifty and actually useful to.

Substrate: I figure about 300lb of substrate will yield a 3" depth. Bottom 3rd to be inert sand, middle 3rd a mix of SeaChem's Florite and Florite Red, top 3rd mainly Eco-Complete with some SeaChem onyx sand. As stated earlier substrate heating will be used. I'm just not sure if I want the Tunze 24v system of the FishVet 120v one. They both suit my needs in their longest most powerful runs, I just worry about a 120v system running through the tank.

Misc: Grounding probe. I hate getting shocked by tanks, been there, done that, soiled the T shirt. GFI protected power strips mounted high in the stand, plugged into 2 different GFI fused 20A circuits. AGA pine stand, refinished to smooth rough edges with semi gloss black exterior, polyurethane, interior to be painted white, and coated with polyurethane. Mount 2 24" under counter florescent fixtures so I can see when working in the sump. Timers for the lights.

Thoughts, comments, glaring errors?

Thanks

gnatster


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Umm... This is your first planted tank?

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

FW plants yes. Built a few reefs, built out a few LFS's. Whats makes you ask if this is my first planted tank?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I wish you the best of luck.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

A lot is lost in text conversation. Am I biting off more then one can chew here?


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Welcome to the Forum Gnatster,

Personally, I look forward to your project and pictures of everything. Although I would usually suggest not getting the under gravel heater you should not get the one from Foster & Smith without a thermostat. The German one is better (I just can't remember the name, is it Dupla?). It is about $600- $800 for your size tank. But I do think it is better than having a heater on all the time. Under gravel heaters are not intended to heat the water column but rather encourage a small current that brings more nutrients to the root system. Check out Floridadriftwood.com as he sells these units and installs them in many tanks.

Did you mention a pH controller, I can't remember. Definitely get one although usually we don't use them it's safer with discus.

Don't mix all those substrates together. It will look like crap in just a few months. We do a lot of digging in a plant tank and you just can't keep the layers separate. I strongly recommend not going with your first thought on this one.

Personally, I don't like your plans for water movement. It sounds more like a reef tank setup and might cause problems for discus. Discus need a lot of water changes and you didn't mention any type of R/O unit. You'll need a large one for that size tank. I would recommend doing 2 water changes per week at 50% each time. This seems safest for discus. You can design something to automatically draw the water and do the changing. I've seen it on a 2,000 gallon tank. I think it's worth it if you have the space. It is a pain changing that much water all by yourself. You could check with a tank service to do this for you. It should only cost about $500-$700 a month for 2x a week. Their fees around here are $75 an hour, well worth if in my book.

Get the stand from Oceanic as theirs are the nicest looking. I like the Cherry stand from them more than a pine stand.

You didn't mention moonlights. I just got some this week and you should also! They come on when the other lights go off.

A forum friend lives in Braddock Heights, is that near you? He keeps low-tech tanks but is a real fish expert. I'm sure he would LOVE to see your tank once it's set up.

Please keep track of this projects cost. My friends here feel that FW tanks in no way compare to their costs and I believe them. We have some pretty high-tech tanks in homes around here most costing $10,000 - $25,000 a piece. One guy here had an underground reservoir dug underneath his house eliminating the need for a chiller. It works greet for his 350 gallon tank. Electricity is pricey here and for large tanks and chillers the average cost for a tank is $300 a month. So the reservoir isn't that bad of an idea.

Rethink the water flow issue and the substrate. The rest should work.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!

[This message was edited by Tenor1 on Sun March 07 2004 at 09:29 PM.]


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Sounds OK to me I guess. I don't like actinic light. Personal choice I guess. I presume you are looking at the Aqua Medic Reactor 1000, the external model. Great reactor.

Your light is a little over kill, but you will loose some of the light from the suspension, and the depth. You will definetly need C02.

You do not want a skimmer on a freshwater tank. It serves no purpose and may interfere with C02.

Why are you mixing virtually every brand of substrate? It can't be because of cost, they are all expensive! Pick one! Eco complete has two granular sizes in the same bag. The sand like layer settles to the bottom of the substrate.

You will not find a lot of support for heating cables here. There are really not too many hobbyists in the USA using them. Except George Booth!

I can get you the C02 reg, controller, and reactor, and I can even special order the light fixture for you. I sell Eco complete, but the shipping alone is $15 per bag. But, I know Fishvet must be close to you, as well as the Aquarium Center!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Robert, 

I think you may have misunderstood the skimmer bit. I contacted a company that builds very high quality skimmers, sumps and reactors for the SW market and asked if he could build me a CO2 reactor. The Aqua Medic has some features I don’t like. The plumbing is only ½” and this system will be all 1” and hard plumbed as well. It’s not designed, at least from what I can see from pictures, to be free standing on the base. I cannot comment on construction quality I only know that this skimmer artist does wonders with acrylic. 

I thought layering substrates was a good idea. I see it is not. I’ll go with the Eco-Complete. 

I understand the concept of heating cables and am personally curious, not $800 Dupla curious but more like $150 Tunze curious. 

I will probably source most everything from a LFS, some of the more esoteric items will need to be mail ordered. I do live near the Aquarium Center, worked there for a while too. There are competitive shops in the area most notably Exotic Aquatics. I am sad to say that while the AC has a nice selection the shopping experience and the overall quality of the shop has slipped quite a bit as of late. My last visit had me shaking my head, the place had a dingy feel and the staff was cold. I am a firm believer of supporting my LFS. I hosted a talk on #Reefs, part of Reefs.org a few years back on supporting one’s LFS. 

gnatster


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Carlos, 

I do plan on documenting everything and taking pictures of as I go, so long as Nikon releases the D-70 for sale soon. I’ll snag some space on the family website. I plan on keep track of all costs. FW tanks are much less costly then reefs, live rock cost alone would be over $1k for this setup, not to mention ongoing cost of salt. 

I can’t see spending upwards of $800 to sate my curiosity of substrate heating, Controlling the always on model in line with the standard heaters I think will cycle it sufficiently. 

pH will be controlled with a Milwaukee brand controller, I research an Octopus system, I can’t justify the cost since I would not be using anywhere near it’s capabilities. 

That’s 2 that have questioned the substrate, looks like the Eco-Complete is for me. 

I’m not 100% at all on water movement, I do want multiple turns per hour but I don’t want to blast the living bejezzes out of everything. I know this aspect will take a lot of tweeking. I have plenty of LineLoc to play with. Water changes are no issue to me, I’m plumbing in a system to facilitate them. RO is not needed out of the tap pH is 6.6, soft and with low TDS. Chlorine is not an issue on a well. 

Oceanic stands are very nice, but 32” tall, AGA’s is 28”, and I’m only 5’8”, I don’t want to erect a scaffold to reach the back. My initial plan was to commission a 330 gal 72x36x30 tank, then I built a cardboard mockup and could not reach many areas, hence the 210.

I looked into moonlights and can find no fixtures that are as good looking as the AB Aquaspacelight. Any Ideas?

KWH costs are much lower here, a chiller is cost efficient. 

Braddock Heights is about 1.5 hr away, I’m north of Baltimore, near PA. 

Thanks for the advice

gnatster


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by gnatster:
> A lot is lost in text conversation. Am I biting off more then one can chew here?


Color me incredulous.

Here's my basic problem: a lot of people find that growing aquatic plants is a fairly difficult undertaking. Growing them so that you have an attractive aquascape adds another order of difficulty. Your emphasis is on designing a machine rather than on designing a garden. Most details of your design will not help you grow plants. They will just make the undertaking more expensive.

My difference is just philosophical. It's your money. It's your time.

I only have a few specific problems with the design.

I think 15' of lift is excessive. About 2/3 of that
lift is losses. If I came across that situation in my professional capacity then I would look for calculation errors or alternative designs.

I think that 850 watts of lighting over a 210 gallon tank would be more controversial if any of us actually had experience with that condition. By most standards that is a reef system, not an aquatic plant system. The light level is very high and the use of actinics is at least unusual.

The substrate problem has already been pointed out.

If you intend to suspend the lights then you will probably get quite a bit of evaporation. How much you get depends on your climate and on whether you have refrigerated air in your home. Evaporation will do quite a bit to cool your tank. The chiller may not be necessary -- particularly if you're willing to let the temperature drift outside of the range of 80-82 degrees. Such a tight range is unnecessary in a freshwater tank. Isn't the 80-82 degree range a little low for discus anyway?

You missed an opportunity to add an automatic water change system. I'm surprised. That is probably one of the first things that I would add to a basic system. Even if your well water is very fresh you might have fun with an RO unit plumbed in to make up for evaporation between water changes. You might also consider plumbing a peristaltic pump into your return flow line so that you can automatically dose fertilizers. Maybe two. That way you can add fertilizers that can't be mixed and stored together.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_

[This message was edited by Roger Miller on Mon March 08 2004 at 06:47 AM.]


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

The lower stand is the way to go. You could get a 20 lb. CO2 tank but the weight might be a problem. I strongly suggest you at least talk to the man at Floridadriftwood regarding the heating cables. Maybe you can get it for less than $800. It was $400 for my 36-gallon tank, which is only 30" long. The set cost is the thermostat. Check out whether a plenum could be of benefit. I've read that they keep the nitrates lower, which is great for discus. 

Check with Oceanic about a lower stand. Actually, check out a custom stand, I really think it's better. You can design the interior space with shelves and places to keep things tidy. If you're going this expensive route than there isn't much difference with the cost. You can design drawers and pull out trays (like kitchen bread trays) that may it extremly nice when working on the tank to offer places to put things. Otherwise, you'll need TV trays to hold containers while you prune the plants. The tiny interior of my 30" stand has places for books and it still holds a canister and the CO2 tank. It's just much better use of the space. The AGA quality, IMO, is just not up to par with your entire system. 

Moonlights might not be practicle for you. They don't make the plants grown better but the tank glows all night long and looks great. They have no practicle benefit so scratch it off the list. GSmollen (sp?) wrote a great article on building your own moonlight system. I'll look for it and reference it here. I'm not a DIY'er at all but those plans look do-able, lol.

Rethink the heating cables. IMO, if you're not going to get the thermostat than skip them completely. I've heard of the less expensive units going haywire and damaging some plants. But that could just be a rumor against the cables. Also consider designing your own stand. The cost isn't that much greater and you don't get a second chance with it.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Roger, 

Thanks for your candor. I come to aquatic gardening with a reef-keepers mindset and a geeks love of high tech gadgetry. My eyes are fully open to fact that part of this design is only to satisfy my own desire to play with toys and will contribute nothing to actual plant growth. To date I have not discussed an aquascape design, I have some thoughts and I have some time. Initially, I plan on using easily grown bunch plants to cycle the tank, some to be replaced as stability is achieved. This also allows me the luxury of time to experiment with various species to see what works best in my setup. I’m thinking in the long term here, figuring it will be 1 -2 years to get a good basic design and let it grow out. My current focus is on the containment vessel. 

Went back and looked over my notes on plumbing design, I too thought 15’ of lift was excessive, I found a glaring error, calculating 6’ of horizontal run as 6’ of vertical. I also have a propensity to over engineer plumbing systems with easy to service sections connected with unions. For example; Sump bulkhead to 1” pipe to union to 1” pipe to pump, exit pump with 1” pipe to double union ball valve to 1” to “T” to 1” to double union ball valve to pipe to check valve to union to pipe etc… I know it’s overkill, but it makes me happy. 

The beauty of my choice in lighting is flexibility. 100W can easily not be turned on and with 6’ of vertical space free above the tank I have the freedom to lower intensity with increased distance. Actinic is purely aesthetic to me. 

Substrate design again shows my reef-keeping bent, I’ll stick to one product. 

The chiller purely a luxury item, in all rights a waste of money in my application. I haven’t been 100% sold on the idea myself but have included it in my design in the event I get a case of “gottahaveits”. 

My design does include a provision for water changes, not fully automated, but leveraging the existing pumps. RO/DI is in my notes to possibly be added. That area has not been fully explored, I am reluctant to employ RO due to the extreme waste of water. 

My notes also include a dosing pump, my issue is my lack of knowledge on the needs of plants. I have read an incredible amount of conflicting information when it come to fertilization my head is swimming. My intention is to join the somewhat local Aquarium society and see first hand what works. 

Again, thanks for pointing out some of my mistakes and pointing me towards the garden path (pun intended), 

gnatster


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

A plant tank is like your first child, before it's born you plan everything to be perfect. Once that child is born all those plans go right out the window and you struggle like everyone else, lol. High-tech certainly dosen't insure a successful tank but the fun of gadgets is part of the overall enjoyment. 

You are so lucky with with tap water conditions being so ideal for discus. They are considered one of the more difficult fish to keep and TFH devotes an entire section each month just for them. IMO, if you are designing an ornamental Dutch tank than the colourful hybrids would be a match. If the Amano style of a more natural growth tank is what you want then the original brown discus is the way to go. What are you considering in this area? 

I've never used a dosing pump and have no first-hand experience with them. 

There is a hobbyist with a high-tech planted discus tank with a personal site sharing his experiences and a how-to section. I'll look for it. Maybe someone here can reference it for you.

IMO, planning a project like this is just too much fun. Right now you're in the perfect position with no loses at all!

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Your timing seems realistic.

I'm not clear on where Parkton is, but there are one or two planted aquarium societies in the Washington/Baltimore/Northern Virginia areas. Some of the outstanding folks in those groups should be able to give you a lot of help with the plant-growing problems. You probably would not be able to get similar help from a general aquarium society.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

I wish Parkton was closer. I could go over and play, lol. 

The owner of Via Aqua spoke at our marine club and said he designs specific cooling systems for clients. Maybe you should e-mail him for input regarding a chilling system for this tank. He could offer better designs than the standard systems offer. Roger has a good point with the temperatures for discus tanks. You may not need the system at all.

I still push for the custom stand with the extra stuff.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

I’ll try to cover a few recent posts. 

Parkton is about 30 miles north of Baltimore City about 4 miles south of the PA line, very rural, can’t even get a pizza delivered. Semi-local is Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association and the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society, both are based in Northern Virginia, about 1.5 hrs 1 way. To the northeast in PA, about a 45 min drive is the Aquarium Club of Lancaster County. I know the National Aquarium works with the Chesapeake Marine Aquarium Society, I do not know if they are involved with any of the FW based organizations. 

The more I look at readily available stands the more I am drawn to constructing my own. I have drawn up plans, mostly as an exercise in learning how to use Visio. In the event I do go that route I’ll post my plans and detail construction. 

Discus wise I’m leaning towards a Hi Fin variety of a Snake Skin Pigeon Blood, definitely a hybrid, as to aquascape style the Dutch methodology appeals to my sense of aesthetics, we’ll see how it progresses once it starts flowing. 

I checked with Florida Driftwood on the Dupla setup. A significant expense is the controller, ande it can only handle the cables, not designed to add on heaters too. Since I already plan on using a controller and have that expense figured in the Dupla system looks to be slightly more affordable. 

gnatster


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Glad to hear you're thinking of designing a stand. Our local Petsmart has stands with some of the extras I've mentioned. You could design book shelves on each end since you have a good length. 

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

If I may step in for a second...I started out with a 100g high tech tank from the get-go without even having kept an aquarium. It took a lot of advance research and planning, but worked out well. I went on to win the Aquabotanic contest and best in show at the AGA this year. (Who knows how I'll do this year ... I'm REALLY pressed for time)

Please take a look at my journals and website. I hope that some of my work may be able to help you out.

I'll echo everyone else's statements on substrate. Just go with eco-complete in a single layer at least 3". Get with a LFS and arrange a bulb buy. The price should come down significantly. The markup is usaually 100%. Last time I was in the Aquarium Center they hadn't starting stocking eco-complete but they should have started by now.

The lighting is overkill in my opinion. Keep in mind that MH lighting estimates already assume that the lights will be suspended 12-18" from the water. I would also consider combining more 6400-6700k PC lights into the combination to soften the overall lighting picture and even the coverage.

Just a thought here, but in a tank that size most people would go with a little less light just because of the maintenance. With 3.3wpg on my 100g I can prune 5+lbs of plants a week. Another thought concerns the Discus. Don't they prefer lower light between 2 and 3wpg?

While I'm on the discus, I agree that you need to check the temps you're planning on. Discus like higher temps. You'll find that your lights might be the largest source of heat and need to be factored into your calculations. I really would love a chiller for my Rainbowfish. I've discarded my heaters and heating cables. In a 70F house I fight to keep my tank below 76-68F using fans. If left alone it can easily hit 84F.

Personally I love the concept behind heater cables, but I got rid of mine for several reasons without ever having used them. First I already have plently of heat from the lights. Second modern substrates such as flourite and eco-complete do not compact or sterilize like a sand substrate would. Last I rebuild my tnak regularly as part of my aquascaping stirring everything up once or twice a year.

Everything I read about discus ( I don't keep them myself) say water changes ... water changes .... water changes...
Personally I think they are needed less in a planted tank than in a bare bottom tank. The plants will help filter the water, but depending on you local water the low KH & pH required for discus usually mean an RO unit with w resivoir.

I personally encourage custom tanks, stands, light hoods and reactors. Custom tanks are not that hard to order in certain areas. Stands are easy to build although I prefer to use industrial components for added strength. Light hoods are easy to built but can take some trial and error. I am about to try some sheet metal hoods myself. Reactors are EASY. I have a thread in the DIY section that covers that.

If you're going to this level, you need to look into plumbing the tank into the house with water and drain lines. It will make automated waterchanges that much easier. I would look at using one of your overflows for a drain during water changes. I have a third bulkhead that overflows during water changes. I just turn on a single valve and it takes care of itself.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))*


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Sorry ... post was getting to long to edit









Last ... aquascaping ... The goal is a planted tank. Make sure to plan this out. The discus and the plants that grow well in the higher temps they require have certain demands of their own. The temp and amount light are two biggies, but the hardness of the water and the fertilizer levels also come into play.

What type of aquascape do you want? High light usually mean high maintenance. Complicated aquascapes require more forethought for a successful execution. I would suggest putting just as much thought into the plants and design as you have the hardware.

You've already decided on the discus you prefer. How will that affect your choice of color and composition. Do you want to complement or contrast with the plant choices?
Ekim just won the aquatic-store contest with a wonderful choice of discus that blended into his aquascape beautifully. On the other hand Jeff Seneske has an awesome tank that assaults the senses with the gumball-machine contrasting of colors.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Wow, ya’ll have been such a such a help, thanks and I mean that. With all the feedback I have made some significant changes. I’m still planning, and would appreciate any added input. 

Substrate: Sticking with one product, Eco-Complete

Largest change, the tank; I moved some furniture around as the layout was not flowing well, new place for me. Two linear feet extra are available, I can think about a 96” tank, moving this now into the realm of a custom built tank. I do not like acrylic. I have a friend that has been very happy with the reptile habitats the glasscages.com has created for her. James I see you worked with them, comments? 

Speaking to glasscages.com, I can definitely swing a 96x24x31, for those off to check volume there is a 16x6 overflow centered on the backside, about 275gal. The floor can handle the weight, ground floor, tile over concrete slab. The stand will certainly need redesigning. At this length, should I consider 4x4 instead of 2x4 construction?

Substrate: I’m convinced, sticking with one product, Eco-Complete

Lighting: Another shift here, goodbye AB, hello aquariumlight.com. AB was not willing to change the bulbs and none of them were ideal, plus I can stage the timing better and not blind the fish. 3 5k 250W MH and 2 10k 160W VHO, each bulb can be controlled independently. 

Main Pump: Stepped down a notch or 3 here, ½ the flow planned before. 

Chiller: Gone

Substrate Heat: Gone

Supplemental Pump: 2/3 previous size, no need to push through a chiller. 

Otherwise pretty much the same, 

gnatster


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Glasscages - Really good products and very flexible. Great value, but not prefect quality. i.e. - some extra silicone here and there, sanded endges as opposed to polished. They will add extra overflows and bulkheads for a reasonable charge.

Tank dimensions - 31 is a little high. THe light will penetrage given the MH, but remember that you will have to reach in to substrate level to plant and prune plants. Mine is 25" and I get in to my armpit sometimes, especially reaching to the back.

Light - go with 6400-6700K bulbs on the MH. Its a brighter, cleanter light. Less yellow.

*James Hoftiezer
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Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))
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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

For the stand... I am a big fan of industrial workbench leg sets. I have two leg pairs (total qty 4) under my stand which rates it at 9000lb. No quesswork. They run 42-50 a pair.

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))*


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Built a cardboard mock-up to test height and reach, at 31" tall on a 26" stand I almost need a wetsuit, a mask and snorkle at the minimum. Change the height to 25", add some width to make it 30", now only armpit deep, thats do-able, few less bucks too. 

gnatster


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

I was thinking about your height and doing maintenance and glad you lowered the tank. I don't even like canopy tops because of the extra height and the hassle of removing it when retrofit lights are invovled. A 30" wide tank for plants sounds incredible. 

This is a wonderful project!

Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Aqua Dave (Mar 16, 2004)

Thought I'd add some thoughts since I just (and I mean just) set-up something similar. I have a 150 AGA with dual mega-flo overflows. I'm using an aquarium life support systems trickle filter with an external 500 gph pump (I recommend you check out ALSS if you want to use a wet/dry). The pump sucks the water out of the filter and then pushes it through a DIY CO2 reactor based on James Hoftiezer's design and then a 25W UV sterilizer. I have two of the WON titanium heaters in the filter sump. I'm using a milwaukee CO2 regulator/needle valve/bubbble counter with SMS122 Ph controller.

First off. I'm guessing you know this, but a wet/dry isn't the most efficient filter to use with CO2 injection. You said "sump" in your post, but I'm thinking this is a wet/dry since you said it's from Oceanic. I'm able to maintain 15ppm, but higher numbers would be difficult to get without a really high bubble rate. And your tank is bigger. You could do it, but you'd blow through CO2 relatively fast. I too like the look of minimal equipment in the tank and accepted the minuses of using an overflow type system.

The amount of CO2 you can inject may also affect how much light you need. I have 2.5W/gal and am getting good growth from my plants with my CO2 rate. You probably don't need 4W+/gal if you can't get enough CO2 in the system to match the light.

I thought about trying to plumb in something to facilitate water changes, but realized that the design of the mega-flo overflows doesn't allow this. The design actually allows you to drain the overflow box and the aquarium is still completely full. I've actually done it. Cool for cleaning, bad for trying to plumb in something for water changes. You now say you're getting a custom aquarium, but just something to think about when you design the overflows.

Oversize your pump a little, but not by too much. The numbers I've read say you can restrict a pump by about a 1/3 before you begin to shorten its life and cause excessive heat. I'm considering upgrading my 500 gph pump (effective rate is probably about 300 gph) to a 700 gph, but am waiting to see if I have algae problems first. I may also just put in a power head somewhere to create a little more water movement.

One last thing, watch out for the levelness of your aquarium with dual overflows. My aquarium is about 1/4" off-level from one end to the other and I initially had all the water flowing in the lower overflow. I worked with all glass on a resolution and eventually fixed the problem, but you may want to design in some sort of mechanism to change the heights of your overflows.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

David


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Welcome to the forum Dave,

You've mentioned some very valid points and thanks for sharing them! Can you share some pictures of your tank? I'd love to see it and know others would as well. Starting a separate thread would be best as not to have your pictures buried in this thread. 

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Aqua Dave (Mar 16, 2004)

I'll see what I can come up with for pictures. I have some, but they're way to huge for web viewing. They're also before I put fish in (which was just last weekend). I'll see if I can get some new pictures that are appropriately sized and post a new thread.

David


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Dave, 

Great to have a fellow monster tank fiend 

I am leaning very heavily towards a custom built tank and have been doing gobs of research on the who, what, when, and where. Learning lots about glass and it's properties too, LOF, low Iron, Starphire, 12mm, 15mm, green, blue, it's all becoming clearer to me. Currently I'm waiting to hear back from 2 places with quotes. Prelimininary indications are that once ardered, construction and delivery will take 14-16 weeks. 

Pretty much decided on 72x30x25. A mock-up of a 96" long tank was scary big, I started thinking about maintenance and went back to 72". 30" I think will allow for a very nice depth of field. Original thoughts were to go with 30-32" for height, others here reminded me I'm going to have reach the back, and without donning a wetsuit! Tank prices also increase expontially when you go beyond 28" tall. 

Preliminary design; 12mm Starphire front and sides, 15mm LOF base, 12mm LOF rear. Corners and edges ground round and polished, Euro bracing (no cross bars), black silicone, and smoked glass overflow.

I have read quite a bit about CO2 and Wet/Dry / Trickle filters. My intentions for the sump are to; keep all the hardware out of site, maintain a stable water level in the tank, provide a location to dose and mechanical flitration, not as bio filter, the plants will handle that. 

In the mean time I think I'm going to pick up an AGA 120 to get the learning process started.

gnatster


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

Nathan,
Could you share you research into glass and construction in the DIY forum? What are the differences/options?

*James Hoftiezer
Hoftiezer.Net - Journals and Libraries
Rate My Tank!!

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive(No Longer Active))*


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

James, 

Posted it this afternoon. 

gnatster


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