# Substrate Help...Sand?



## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

Hi...I've had freshwater aquariums for a long time know and I've also had some with live plants in them. I never really new anything about them until recently however, and I've only used aquarium gravel sold at pet stores in the past for my substrate. The plants always seemed to survive (as long as I didn't put very many in the aquarium), but I've never really had to do much pruning so they weren't growing much either.

Looking at pictures of other peoples tanks, I've always wondered what I was doing wrong. After reviewing this forum I've learned a lot about the importance of a proper substrate for plants.

I've been reading that you should create a two part substrate that is 1-2" of topsoil followed by 1-2" of fine gravel. So here's my question:

*Why should you use a layer of gravel for the top layer instead of a layer of sand? Is it ok to use sand? *

I am thinking of using sand if it would be ok.

Any and all advice would be much appreciated.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

dt78 said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> So here's my question:
> 
> ...


Based on other posts and reading Diana's book, I understand that sand, like a top layer of gravel that is too deep, can/will lead to your soil going anaerobic by effectively capping the soil off and preventing air/water exchange.

Depending on the size of your tank, that could be a gallon or more of soil rotting in your tank. From there, I'd guess it's all a smelly ride downhill...

Although a thinner layer of sand may prevent the soil from going off, I'd guess that it will also allow more soil to be dug up and disturbed during maintenance/trimming.

Here's another thread on this: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/28016-sand-over-soil.html


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

Thanks *Mr. Fishies*.....that clears things up a bit. That link to the thread was exactly what I was looking for. I'm not sure how I missed it, but thanks for bringing it to my attention. After reading it though, it looks like there's still a bit of a debate about whether it will work or not, but that if you do decide to use sand you should make sure it isn't very deep and that it gets stirred up a lot.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I guess it's a bit of a judgment call. I admit, the look of sand can be really nice, but I always felt El Natural means trying to find a balance (or something close to balance) that can be left alone and will thrive without my intervention (basically, keep my hand out of the tank).

After 2 years of occasional maintenance and replanting about 15-20% of my soil has mixed into the gravel. If agitating (even gently) your sand regularly is needed, you may wind up mixing so much soil into your sand that you'll loose the aesthetic of the sand anyways. But don't let me dissuade you - you may have no problems at all.

Ian


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

I completely agree with everything you've said *Mr. Fishies*. You nailed it on the head when you said "keep my hand out of the tank." That's the reason I'm looking at the El Natural setup. I wasn't trying to suggest that I was going to use sand in my last reply. I was just trying to summarize what I had read, just incase somebody else thinking about using sand reads this thread.

Because of the need to mix the sand up, I personally will be going with gravel. I have a seen other tanks with dirt and gravel that have been mixed together over the years due to maintenance and rearranging, and I figured it would be much worse if I was constantly mixing sand that was only 1/2" deep. Plus, every time you mix the sand the water would probably get cloudy. I've read that snails will mix the sand for you but I don't really want to have a bunch of snails multiplying like crazy in my tank either.

Thanks again for your input.


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## StevenLeeds (Jul 21, 2007)

I'm getting ready to setup a natural tank. It's going to be a 5.5 gallon with the top layer being play sand. I have more trumpet snails now than I know what to do with. I'll see how good of a job they do keeping the sand from compacting too much.


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## dt78 (Apr 23, 2007)

That sounds great *StevenLeeds*. Let me know how it works out for you. If the snails can do the job properly, I might give it a go. I just don't want to end up with too many snails.


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

Another soil mixer: blackworms. My tank had a layer of traction sand over dirt, then I added blackworms bought from the fish store. Now, about 6 weeks later, I'm seeing quite a lot of dirt on top of the sand. The sand layer is probably about 1/2 inch thick, but that's a guess--I didn't measure it when I set the tank up. I do get clouds of mud in the water when I uproot very many plants, but it settles again in a day or so, so its not a real problem for me. My plants all seem happy, and so do the fish I recently added.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

If your setting up a true NPT where you won't be doing water changes too often or vacuuming the gravel, then it won't see what's on the top layer anyway - pretty soon the desired layer of mulm covers the whole surface.
If you read past posts of Diana's, she lets the mulm layer build up quite substantially (1"+) before she vacuums it, once or twice a year, if at all.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

If you use gravel as the top layer of your substrate, most of the mulm (which is mainly oxidized fish manure and, to me, unsightly) will work it's way into the substrate, where it will be available to the roots of the plants.

That which accumulates in depressions can be safely siphoned out if one does not like the look of it.

Bill


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

The Encyclopedia of Aquatic Plants by Peter Hiscock has a fairly good section regarding substrates for the planted tank. The book mentions that stagnation can become a problem if it's not regularly fluffed and offers a few suggestions. I don't mean to be redundant of the other posts but the book is very good on several subjects.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> The Encyclopedia of Aquatic Plants by Peter Hiscock has a fairly good section regarding substrates for the planted tank. The book mentions that stagnation can become a problem if it's not regularly fluffed and offers a few suggestions. I don't mean to be redundant of the other posts but the book is very good on several subjects.


I'm sure that it is a good book, but "fluffing" the substrate of soil-based aquaria doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It might free substrate nutrients to get into the water column, for example, as well as make a general mess.

I never do that, even in my 3 year old NPT.

Bill


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

No, I don't condone it either but it's a common suggestion I read.


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## gheitman (Aug 18, 2007)

Malaysian Trumpet Snails do a good job of "stirring" sand and making sure that anaerobic gasses don't build up. I had a 5 gallon hex with sand as the only substrate and the MTS kept it in good shape. The snail population doesn't have to get out of hand if you do a good job of not overfeeding. Besides, they usually stay under the substrate during the day and I actually moved some over to other tanks to get greater numbers.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

NatalieT said:


> Another soil mixer: blackworms. My tank had a layer of traction sand over dirt, then I added blackworms bought from the fish store. Now, about 6 weeks later, I'm seeing quite a lot of dirt on top of the sand. The sand layer is probably about 1/2 inch thick, but that's a guess--I didn't measure it when I set the tank up. I do get clouds of mud in the water when I uproot very many plants, but it settles again in a day or so, so its not a real problem for me. My plants all seem happy, and so do the fish I recently added.


I wonder if I got blackworms, if my lucious betta would eat them? What do you think? Then I wouldn't have to worry about to feed while I am on vacation.


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> I wonder if I got blackworms, if my lucious betta would eat them? What do you think? Then I wouldn't have to worry about to feed while I am on vacation.


I don't think my fish are getting very many of my worms--one platy was obviously hunting them the whole first evening, but since then, the worms seem to stay under the sand and the fish are looking elsewhere for their food.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

NatalieT said:


> I don't think my fish are getting very many of my worms--one platy was obviously hunting them the whole first evening, but since then, the worms seem to stay under the sand and the fish are looking elsewhere for their food.


Thanks for quick response. Let me know what happens with the worms. In gardens outdoors worms are benifical for the soil. I wonder if they are good for the soil submerged under water.


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, I'm reasonably sure there's at least some worms right now, but its hard to tell much more than that--I've got awful green water right now, so I won't know more until I get rid of that and can see into the tank! But the little I can see has a jungle of healthy plants and the fish are all doing great, so I assume the worms aren't causing any problems, at least.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

NatalieT said:


> Well, I'm reasonably sure there's at least some worms right now, but its hard to tell much more than that--I've got awful green water right now, so I won't know more until I get rid of that and can see into the tank! But the little I can see has a jungle of healthy plants and the fish are all doing great, so I assume the worms aren't causing any problems, at least.


Perhaps plants and fish are doing well, for you have condition as would be in nature for them. For many ponds are not clear as our aquariums are. I believe it is impossible to have a good looking aquarium that resembles nature 100 percent. But don't quote me. This is just a hypothisis from articles I have read. Good luck. Glad to hear fish are doing well. What kind of fish are in the tank?


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> Perhaps plants and fish are doing well, for you have condition as would be in nature for them. For many ponds are not clear as our aquariums are. I believe it is impossible to have a good looking aquarium that resembles nature 100 percent. But don't quote me. This is just a hypothisis from articles I have read. Good luck. Glad to hear fish are doing well. What kind of fish are in the tank?


My tanks have a tendency to look like a pond or swamp, both when I was a kid (guppies, algae, java moss) and now. My current fish are: one female each of lyretail molly and orange platy; lots of guppies; 7 pygmy cories; 1 ghost shrimp. The one-of-a-kind are from when I kept losing guppies in the newly-established tank; I was trying to figure out if the problem was the guppies or the tank--everything that wasn't a guppy did fine, and I eventually got a few guppies that lived, too, so I now have lots of guppies. The pygmy cories I bought after things were stabilized, so I haven't lost any of them. I'm going to order some daphnia soon, to try to clear the green water--I'm thinking of putting them in something like a net breeder to protect them from the fish while still allowing them access to the algae in the water.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

NatalieT said:


> My tanks have a tendency to look like a pond or swamp, both when I was a kid (guppies, algae, java moss) and now. My current fish are: one female each of lyretail molly and orange platy; lots of guppies; 7 pygmy cories; 1 ghost shrimp. The one-of-a-kind are from when I kept losing guppies in the newly-established tank; I was trying to figure out if the problem was the guppies or the tank--everything that wasn't a guppy did fine, and I eventually got a few guppies that lived, too, so I now have lots of guppies. The pygmy cories I bought after things were stabilized, so I haven't lost any of them. I'm going to order some daphnia soon, to try to clear the green water--I'm thinking of putting them in something like a net breeder to protect them from the fish while still allowing them access to the algae in the water.


The idea of having fleas in a tank gives me the willies. What if they jump out of the tank. Why not just put some different media inserted in a mesh bag in the filter.


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> The idea of having fleas in a tank gives me the willies. What if they jump out of the tank. Why not just put some different media inserted in a mesh bag in the filter.


Mostly because I don't have a filter  I don't think daphnia can jump out (they're not really fleas, of course; even if they're called "water fleas") and I'm pretty sure that any time I want to be rid of the daphnia, my fish will be delighted to eat them all. I've been trying all sorts of things in my tank lately, and I figure I'll eventually settle on a combination I like. The other experiments in this tank are doing OK so far--the live plants growing in dirt/sand, and the blackworms; now I'll try daphnia....


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