# Canister filters with >500gph flow?



## Ernie Mccracken

The latest thinking on filtration seems to indicate that most of us need a lot more flow and media capacity than previously thought. For those of us with heavily planted displays larger than 40-50 gallons, what are the best options?

I am gathering equipment for a 120P (moderately planted, in-line CO2 reactor) and am struggling to find something with enough flow. I was originally planning on an Eheim 2080, but am now wondering if that's enough. I know Eheim still sells their classic line, but the lack of media baskets is really offputting.


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## onefang

You could give the Odyssea CFS 700 a go. I've heard good things about this filters flow and media capacity. Plus, they are cheap, so you could buy an extra one for parts 

If you are willing to spend the cash, you could go for a Fluval FX5.

As far as I can tell, seeing them side by side, the Odyssea CFS filters are essentially a clone of the Fluval FX line.

Both should have enough flow.


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## cino

Funny but I just asked Eheim about getting my hands on more wet/dries, a snail of a bio-canister, only cranks 145 gph. The amazing part is I am reading all these comments on fast flow, totally blows the marine trickle filter idea right out of the water........except in this house. 

Two out of three of our wet/dries run on tanks with 4 wpg or more in T-5 lighting and not a single problem with algae, NONE on a 55 (4, 54 watt bulbs) and a 75 gal. (6, 54 watt bulbs). I even keep our most algae prone plants in these tanks such as many rotalas. We have a third wet/dry on a 38 gal. tank but that only has 2 3/4 wpg (compact florescent) but again, NO ALGAE. These tanks get the same amount of water changes and over-all care as our tanks with proportionate bio-loads that one tank (56 gal) has a Eheim pro 3E (max capasity of 490 gph) and our 65 gal with an Eheim 2080. I have more problems with algae on the two regular filter types than on the wet/dry types and the wet/dries do not hold near as much media as the pro 3s (5 to 7 liters in the wet/dries and 9 liters in the pro 3E and a whopping 12 liters in the regular pro 3. All have Efhastrat Pro as filter media. Admittedly the 65 gal has 175 watts of halide but the 56 gal has compact florescent (2.4 wpg) and is awaiting upgrade to 150 watts of halide and is actually our worst in terms of algae. We just need to clean up the fixture and get a better bulb.

But to answer the question: Many fish such as discus can't take the high, direct current generated by a Fluval FX5 (925 gph). I use to run an FX5 on our reef (kept blowing motors in the high salt concentration ((025)) and I went through 3 FX5 motors in two years. I also had an interesting experience when I put one of our wet/dries on the reef to back up the FX5. The wet/dry took over the FX5 and cleaned up the FX5 unbelievably. Eventually the live rock took over for both, LOL

As I said earlier, the Eheim Pro 3E is the fastest of the Eheims (that I know of) and holds 9 liters of media. The 2080 is just a bit slower but holds 12 liters.


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## jeff5614

I'm starting to think the best canister filter options for larger tanks, and by that I mean anything over 50 gallons may be something like an Eheim 2260, 2262 or a build your own with a couple of Nu-Clear canisters and a pump with enough head pressure to maintain flow as the media starts to clog.


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## cino

PS on FX5s The FX5s hold less media than the big Eheims as they have three baskets. The interior of the baskets hold the actual media, each basket is lined with thick sponges which is what makes them appear to hold more media then they actually do. I found them not to be good biologically as the water flushed through them so fast that their bio cap. seemed easily upset. 

I monitor my oxygen levels closely and the FX5s stop every 24 hours to let out trapped oxygen. At least on our reef we found that they greatly depleted our oxygen from 7 to 5 PPMs. They trapped so much oxygen that when they would stop they would release the trapped oxygen and take on a gallon or more of water to compensate for the released oxygen they had been holding. They'd bubble up a storm when taking on more water after off-gassing which stressed our fish. They are very easy to care for, especially with the drain valve at the bottom of the canister. 

Both the FX5 and the Eheim Pro 3 hold right around 5 gallons of water, the Eheim holds much more media, the FX5 is twice as fast.


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## cino

We plan on getting a 125 gal. after we move. I would use our 2080 on that and get another wet/dry for our 65 gal. "if I can get my hands on one". In all honesty, I would use wet/dries on anything under 75 gallons or so. I think they are too small to be effective on larger tanks.

I would think that if Eheim thought fast flow was so great, they would make a canister that could do just that, THEY RESEARCH EXTENSIVELY. I just did not find that super fast flow of the FX5 to be that effective in biological filtration and like I said, THEY DO NOT HOLD THAT MUCH MEDIA AND THEIR BASKETS ARE DEEP VS. WIDE.


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## Ernie Mccracken

jeff5614 said:


> I'm starting to think the best canister filter options for larger tanks, and by that I mean anything over 50 gallons may be something like an Eheim 2260, 2262 or a build your own with a couple of Nu-Clear canisters and a pump with enough head pressure to maintain flow as the media starts to clog.


I think you're right. What a bummer. The big classic Eheim filters seem to be inferior to Eheim's other models in every way except flow.


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## cino

Ernie Mccracken said:


> I think you're right. What a bummer. The big classic Eheim filters seem to be inferior to Eheim's other models in every way except flow.


Good luck with whatever you choose. I've been in the hobby for over 40 years and while I am familiar with many filters under many different circumstances, there is always more to learn. I can only tell you of my observations over the past years and what I see with the 9 tanks we currently own (three go to the reef system and 6 planted). Unfortunately I called Hagen many times (as did our LFS) with one problem or another when it came to our FX5s. I do believe Eheim would have made a fast bio-filter by now if they saw where that principle worked that well. I do like the idea that the 2080s draw from two intakes.


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## JustLikeAPill

I would go with the 2080 any day. The FX5 very much seems to be a quantity versus quality type of filter to me. The 2080 holds a lot of media, has good flow (the fx5 has a lot of flow but .... It is not an eheim and i dont know if the pump is pressure rated.) I can see all of those sponges getting clogged quickly and reducing the flow anyway. 

The dual intakes are a great idea, too, like cino mentioned. I think you get what you pay for and I would not skimp out on the filter.


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## cino

Yes, the 2080 cranks at 450 gph (not bad but not too much so either) and is a super filter and easy maint. That duel intake does a really nice job at circulation and they come with Eheim's better quality intake and output parts (vs. the green stuff normally sold with Eheims) the last I knew.

Eheim had come out with a huge capasity filter some time back. I have not seen it in quite a while though. It had no bells and whistles and was very basic. I believe, if memory serves me correctly, it held 18 liters of media but only cranked at 450 gph considering its size and was more of a tower type design. I have not seen anything faster than the Pro 3Es and I do not run our Pro 3E wide open as I can hear the motor. The only time I use that max feature is when I need to disturb the tank and need fast mechanical filtration but even then I tend to shut down the Eheim and let the mechanical filters take over trapping saving my Eheim for better purposes. 

I do not want to hear our tanks and we definately do not want to smell them!!!!:slywink:


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## Ernie Mccracken

JustLikeAPill said:


> I would go with the 2080 any day. The FX5 very much seems to be a quantity versus quality type of filter to me. The 2080 holds a lot of media, has good flow (the fx5 has a lot of flow but .... It is not an eheim and i dont know if the pump is pressure rated.) I can see all of those sponges getting clogged quickly and reducing the flow anyway.
> 
> The dual intakes are a great idea, too, like cino mentioned. I think you get what you pay for and I would not skimp out on the filter.


Simply putting media in a 2080 drops the flow rate to ~320gph, so when you account for other typical flow restrictions (head height, co2 reactor, dirty prefilter), I think you'd be lucky to see 200-250gph actually going into the tank. Doesn't seem like enough for my 4 foot long, 65 gallon 120P. I read through the monster thread here on APC, but is there anything more written on the topic?


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## cino

Hold on here a minute. Doesn't seem you have all the info you need here. Eheim tests their filters with the recommended media in them, not like other manufacturers. 

Trust me, my Pro 3 cranks at 450 gph or there abouts. I know well the difference between lets say 250 gph and 450 gph. Ya get that way when you do as many tanks as we do over so many years, ya just know.............If you do use the media they rec., your filter does not clog or build up sludge OF ANY KIND, my filter stays squeeky clean to the touch, no slim, media looks brand new, walls squeek when we touch them. There are no inhibiting factors that would alter test evaluations even when well established. Head pressure remains consistant.

YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF NO FAVORS BY BASING YOUR INFO ON OTHER MANUFACTURES RESULTS OF THEIR LOADED, ESTABLISHED FILTERS AND SLIMED IMPELLARS OR CLOGGED FILTER MEDIA. You will not see slime on your Eheim media if you use the rec. media, Efhastrat Pro.

Eheim is and has been the benchmark for any number of reasons. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR AND THAT IS RARE THESE DAYS. I USE A PRO 3 ON MY 65 GALLON and I know it can handle much more depending on what I need of the filter. I certainly would not use it on anything more than perhaps a 150 for best results but a 65 is SMALL for a Pro 3


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## cino

A four foot long 65 gallon!!!!!!!!!!!!! Small change for a Pro 3. Try powering debth, that is a much harder task and most 65s are 24 inches deep and 18 inches front to back (3 feet long)as is ours and our Pro 3 makes light work of it even with halide lighting. And what does CO2 injection have to do with it!!!!!! Have you seen the way they design the pre-filter trays for the pre-filter pads???? They can't possibly clog. The fine filter pad will eventually clog and that is when they rec. changing it. When you see the flow guage drop, it is time to change the fine filter pad and rinse or replace the blue pre-filter pad which is so accessible that all you need to do is remove the pump head and the pre-filter pad and tray are right there.


Do your research. You asked for advice and now do not want to take it!


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## onefang

cino said:


> A four foot long 65 gallon!!!!!!!!!!!!! Small change for a Pro 3. Try powering debth, that is a much harder task and most 65s are 24 inches deep and 18 inches front to back (3 feet long)as is ours and our Pro 3 makes light work of it even with halide lighting. And what does CO2 injection have to do with it!!!!!! Have you seen the way they design the pre-filter trays for the pre-filter pads???? They can't possibly clog. The fine filter pad will eventually clog and that is when they rec. changing it. When you see the flow guage drop, it is time to change the fine filter pad and rinse or replace the blue pre-filter pad which is so accessible that all you need to do is remove the pump head and the pre-filter pad and tray are right there.
> 
> Do your research. You asked for advice and now do not want to take it!


Holy smokes.. Simmer down my friend.

While Eheim does indicate that their filters are rated for flow with media loaded.. they don't indicate that you'll achieve that flow at any given head height. Couple that with having to push through your CO2 reactor(as indicated by the OP), and you've got some significant flow drop off. Monsterfishkeepers tested it at 318 gph or thereabouts. My 2217 is rated at 264 gph, with inline heater, CO2 Reactor, and head height, I am really lucky if I get 200 gph on fresh media. It just barely produces enough flow for my 41 gallon. Funny cause it's rated for 159 gallons 
Eheim is great, but it's not the end-all be-all.

And as far as filters staying squeaky clean with Eheims recommended media.. I think that you must know something we all don't. I have a 2217, 2232, and have had a 2213, and 2211. Every single one of them eventually gets slimy and clogged - it's a filter, if it wasn't getting dirty inside, I don't think it'd be doing it's job. There's a reason why Eheim has recommended service intervals on their filters.


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## niko

I think that with large filters one needs to understand that there are 2 ways to go about them:

1. Get an off the shelf, ready to go model. 
Eheim would be my choice because any Chinese Miracle filter hooked up to a large tank would spill lots of water if it ever decides to do what most Chinese Miracle products do - break down.

But Eheims are not that great as far as flow is concerned. I don't know how they test them but loaded with their own medias they do not run at the rate written on the box. I have never used an FX5 but the way I see it for that money and that size filter I don't get a pressure rated pump? I'm not sure if that's mediocrity so I just don't want something like that.

Using more than 1 canister is ok but I personally hate the extra hoses in the tank.


2. Build you own. 
Here the problem is getting the big size canister. NuClear/Ocean Clear are fine but you cannot hook them one after the other. Because the bacteria in the first filter will deplete the Oxygen of the water going to the next filter. Any filter after the first will not operate as efficiently as it should. NuClear/Ocean Clear makes a strange looking stacking tower that assumes you do not have any restrictions with the height of the filter. And you are hell bent on having the same canister diameter. And you have all the money in the world too.

I'm actualy ready with the design of my own canister filters utilizing a Japanese pressure rated pump. Only reason to do that is that the market does not offer anything too good. From what I've seen people buy filters based on non-existent knowledge they have. My design is fully customizable - height, diameter, pump output. More silent that an Eheim. Working even if the media is clogged to some extent because of the pressure rated pump. The in/output provide the least possible resistance of the water flow. Basically it is what ADA offers you in stainless steel and people refuse to see it's perfection and beauty.

--Nikolay


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## JustLikeAPill

We see it.... We also see the price tag : ) Their cheapest model is $500 and pushes 100 gallons per hour.... A 2217 is a more practical option, although the 2217 has no poem etched on it.

All of the ADA filters are... Amazing to say the least both functionally and aesthetically, and iwaki are great pumps. We know they are great, but we also know $500 for 100 gph is a bit much. Of course you can get the larger models if you want to spend a grand or more. I will get one day. Probably when I get my mid life crisis lol.

That being said I think the eheims are the next best choice. 

I think most consumers, including myself, go with option number one because we dont want to build anything. I am not going to build anything myself with water running through it. I would also never get a chinese miracle filter (you should trademark that name!)


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## Ernie Mccracken

niko said:


> I'm actualy ready with the design of my own canister filters utilizing a Japanese pressure rated pump. Only reason to do that is that the market does not offer anything too good. From what I've seen people buy filters based on non-existent knowledge they have. My design is fully customizable - height, diameter, pump output. More silent that an Eheim. Working even if the media is clogged to some extent because of the pressure rated pump. The in/output provide the least possible resistance of the water flow. Basically it is what ADA offers you in stainless steel and people refuse to see it's perfection and beauty.


Thanks for your input. When can I try one?


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## onefang

Ernie Mccracken said:


> Thanks for your input. When can I try one?


You could take a second mortgage out on your house, and get one from ADA right now 
http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=26_43&products_id=151


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## Ernie Mccracken

onefang said:


> You could take a second mortgage out on your house, and get one from ADA right now
> http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=26_43&products_id=151


Only $1000? A bargain at twice the price.


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## cino

I am not into CO2 yet, too risky for my level of knowledge and super soft water combined with discus. I must have gotten lucky when we bought our 2080 as water turnover is always cranked, lots of strong movement and 200 gph is not going to create that much circulation (back to front and at such a depth) so as to hold cabomba clippings plastered to the substrate like the 2080 does at a depth of 20 inches or so (allowing for 3" of substrate and water level). Most our finer stemmed plants such as wallichii can not stand up at all in the current generated by the 2080. Anything with thicker stems such as limnophila aromatica can take it. It chops the brittle hottoniifloria stems off. Our discus shy away from the current.

I can not follow Eheim owners' manuals for the big Eheims, only the wet/dry manuals and they do give a very specific, narrow range head heigth. 

I do not however believe Eheims are the end-all in filtration either but since the 2080 was asked about, I addressed that particular filter since I have had one for about 4 years now. Having had two FX5s (3 motors) I also addressed them based of our problems with using them on a reef. Another thing about the FX5 is that you must pull the motor to get at the impellar and it is not so easy to re-attach the motor again. 

A 65 gallon is a small tank and a 2080 is a big, easy-to-maintain filter and holds more media than an FX5. With as many tanks as we have here, doing ADA filtration would be out of the question. It is right around $600 to purchase and media fill a 2080 at today's prices and that is bad enough when talking about just one tank.

Yea, our filters do stay just that clean but we are also heavy into mechanical filtration and very frequent water changes because discus are slow, picky eaters and we need to move and prune plants regularly since we supply a pet store. We have to watch what we put in the 65 gallon, even at the substrate depth as the current rips non-rooted plants out easily (even without mechanical filtration) or just forces them to lay down flat. It really has a field day with cabomba furcata which needless to say, could not be kept in that tank. 

The rec. servicing for a 2078 or 2080 is 3 to 4 months and that is basically sponge replacement/impellar cleaning. The rec. servicing for the wet/dries, even longer. Eheim themselves told us you could let a wet/dry go for as long as a year because of the self-flushing motion of the filter.

We almost never touch the wet/dries (no sponges) except for the impellars and the big ones get their sponges replaced. I had to regularly rinse media in most filters but not with Eheim's round media. Our Marineland C-360 has the same media as the Eheims but that does require occassional quick rinses in used aquarium water. Must be something in that media because we had a filter go down on another tank about a year ago and had to double up on on the bio-load (8, 6+ inch discus plus tetras, bristle noses and so on) in the 65 gallon and the filter took it with ease..... the discus were not to happy tho.


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## cino

Perhaps our ultra-soft water has something to do with our filters staying as clean as they do or having such circulation output from our 2080. Our water feels like silk against your skin to run your arms through one of our tanks. Our RO/DI unit can not lower our hardness readings even with a new membrane and cartridges. Sure is a major problem when it comes to the reef in maintaining pH and hardness levels.

Our new TDS meter can't get readings on our water and needs to be recalibrated (that or I am not using it right). Our KH tests at 0.3 to 0.6 max. 0.11 alk, (depending on how low our well is), the lowest our Salifert test kits go. Our GH is 2 to 3 PPMs, pH is 6.0 but we know we have high CO2 concentrations in our water. Off-gassed it climbs to about 6.6. Because we keep discus, we do not chemically alter our water much. The oxygen levels (12 PPMs on average) in our tanks take the pH to around 6.8 to 7.0. If I want CO2, all I have to do is change the water....Joking but also serious.

We have very unique water for this part of the country.


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## lanceduffy

@ the wet dry filter comment:

From Online AquaJournal:
"Aqua Journal: By the way, an external filter is considered to be the best filter for an aquatic plant layout. Why is that?
Amano: That’s a generally accepted belief, but I am not so sure about it lately."

"Aqua Journal: Really? You aren’t sure about it?
Amano: When the oxygen content of water is low, the microorganisms inside a closed system become quite unstable. When the CO2 level is high inside a filter, the number of microorganisms decreases. On the other hand, when the oxygen level is high, the number increases. Algae seem to come and go along with this fluctuation. I am afraid that this is a short coming of an external filter. It has an advantage of retaining CO2 in water, though."

More to come ladies and gentlemen...


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## TAB

niko said:


> I'm actualy ready with the design of my own canister filters utilizing a Japanese pressure rated pump. Only reason to do that is that the market does not offer anything too good. From what I've seen people buy filters based on non-existent knowledge they have. My design is fully customizable - height, diameter, pump output. More silent that an Eheim. Working even if the media is clogged to some extent because of the pressure rated pump. The in/output provide the least possible resistance of the water flow. Basically it is what ADA offers you in stainless steel and people refuse to see it's perfection and beauty.
> 
> --Nikolay


I've actually got a couple protypes built and being tested of large canisters with presure rated pumps that are flowing ~ 900 gph. using a partial bypass valve, you can change that value basicly at will. Its just that there is no way I could sell them do to the cost to produce.

Even if the material was changed from acrylic to a injected mouded. the mold would be in the tens of thousands to be made...( already been priced out, 10-30k) It would still put the price into the 700-800 range to produce at reasonable quanitys. with acrylic the price would have to be about a grand to justify producing them in smaller numbers. The price for the tubing whole sale is about $225/ft if I were to buy 100+ feet I'd have to buy 500+ to get a better price. retail is about $400/ft for lenghts under 6'.

now a streched or spun high quality SS body is option, but once again you are looking at big bucks for set up/tooling.

From the research I've done in the manufactoring of a product like this, the cheapest option for small scale is fiberglass, but even then its still big bucks to get set up.

Now if we could find something built for another purpose or a manufactor willing to modify a "off the shelf" product a little bit to fit our needs then maybe we could produce a product that is economically viable. Then comes the hard part, getting people to buy the damn thing.


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## niko

My design is not expensive to make. Materials are about $50 for a canister that can be from 1 to 20 gallons (or more). The $50 includes in/out fittings + hoses. Fitings are not the usual aquarium grade flimsy plastic/design. Materials are all industrial grade. You can literally drive your car over the canister and it will not break. The few metal parts are stainless.

After my experience selling rare fish I'm pessimistic about the price that I can sell such truly high quality filter. How many people would pay $200 for the non-pressure rated version? And $400 for the pressure rated with a Japanese pump? And these are prices to barely make $80 profit.

Hopefully in the near future my life will stabilize and I will offer this filter for sale, allright. But if there is any hope for it selling it would not be in the planted tank community.

--Nikolay


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## TAB

what are you using for the body of the canister?


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## freshyleif

Niko your last post make no sense to me at all. You say that you can make a canister for $50 but then you go on to say that you would sell it for $200 or $400 and only make $80. This I am guessing is because of the pump cost. Is this profit margin to low for you because of the time and labor or because you just don't feel it is enough. Why not tell the rest of us how to make this on our own? I for one would love to make my own large canister filter and am just as capable as anyone else at getting a good pump Japanese or other. I am willing to spend money but I am not willing to pay money for products that I feel can be made in less expensive ways. I don't feel that ADA filters are worth the money they cost, there I said it. To me there is a difference between being economical and cheap.


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## niko

Here's the ugly math:

http://www.fishtanksdirect.com/bluelineexternalwaterpump.aspx

1250 gph - $180 + shipping.

Canister + Blue Line pressure rated pump = $250.
Sale price = $400
Profit: $150
Tax = $32
Profit after tax = $118
Labor = ?

About $80 profit. I'm extatic.

--Nikolay


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## freshyleif

Take the pump out of the equation for one. And no it is not exactly the million dollar idea but some people are willing to be innovative without making themselves rich.I for one am doing this for me as a hobby and have never looked at it as a money making endeavor, so when I have a good idea or something to share I give it for free, and if any money comes back to me via sales or whatever then great. So yes for me unless it is very labor consuming I would find an $80 per item profit after taxes fine. And I ask again if it is so great why are you not willing to share the plans or even parts resources. Tab seems to be working along the same lines as you and even asked what you are using but unless you pm'd him I saw no response. Or as I first said don't buy the pump for the filter for you customer and just make the canister for $50 and sell it for maybe $150 or even $175. If it really is custom sizable then it would be very worth it to me. Please don't get me wrong I am only bringing this all up because I read almost all your posts and mostly REALLY WANT A FILTER LIKE THIS and If I could I would build it myself but since I have not found the right supplies myself yet I search here and anywhere else I can think.


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## niko

Well, I'll take your advice and whenever I get around to it I will try to sell the canister only.

I don't want to give out details because right now I really need a little money. There could be a little money in this filter contraption. And I don't want to see a few people using my idea to satisfy their DIY urges + keeping the DIY image of this hobby going. 

Here's some insight about me. Today my car broke. I worked 8 hours straight in hot + toxic environment. I thought I can pay (part of) my bills after making a tiny amount of money in such a stylish fashion. Now the money will have to go toward fixing the car. And tomorrow there will be the joy of towing charges too.

So, you see, my mindset is stellar at the moment. "Innovative" means little to me now. Besides - I didn't try to think of a filter design to be innovative. I came up with my design because I find every other canister filter on the market ridiculous. Eheim included, ADA excluded.

Meanwhile - think "simple", don't invent anything new, take a second look at ADA and you will easily come up with your own design.

--Nikolay


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## Ernie Mccracken

Build a better mouse trap. I know the $7 DIY kitchen sponge reverse undergravel rain gutter trickle filter hivemind is still the prevailing mindset in most online communities, but the hobby has slowly progressed. It was only 5-10 years ago when pressurized CO2 and any lighting beyond shop lights w/ grow bulbs was only for millionaire playboys.

I just spent an embarassing amount of money on a filter that I consider barely passable for my application. Solve one problem at a time.

- Not enough flow
- Not enough media
- Too easy to clog
- Potentially unreliable and noisy (you think pressure rated bluelines are quiet?)
- Difficult to service
- No consideration for backflushing or water changes
- Ugly plumbing
- Lots of proprietary parts
- Lack of integration with in-line heaters and CO2 reactors


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## niko

Pressure rated Pan World pumps are quiet. The first time I saw one working I looked at the pump, the flow, then the plumbing. Yes, this yellow thing was making this water move. Without any noise. I was standing 4 ft. from the pump. Pan World/Blue Line/Iwaki - same engineer I think. In any case the pump flavor is best left up for you to pick, just like FreshyLeif suggested.

What I'm more interested in is the customizable canister. Being paranoid about leaks I'm not foreign to actually put a cheap pump in side the tank just because it reduces the risk of leaks.

--Nikolay


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## freshyleif

I feel your pain. Just had to throw $600 dollars into my wife's car two weeks after buying much needed tires for my car at $480. Ooops there goes all are hard earned money for the summer. Only bright side is that we actually were able to get through it with out using a credit card. I have also been dealing with a family stomach flu this week so life is stellar right now. Now back to topic, I get where you are coming from as far as the "give it to the DIY community for free" goes. It seems to me that a part of the problem is that making prototypes are always the most expensive. With that in mind have you looked at some kind of sponsor or something as far as a financial back to get you a started. I am just throwing out ideas so if you already thought of this then just ignor it. But to put it out there, Although I am not at all rich I would put money up for the making of these canisters. Because as you said earlier the filters out there are not up to par and ADA costs a lot.


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## JustLikeAPill

niko said:


> So, you see, my mindset is stellar at the moment. "Innovative" means little to me now. Besides - I didn't try to think of a filter design to be innovative. I came up with my design because I find every other canister filter on the market ridiculous. Eheim included, ADA excluded.
> 
> Meanwhile - think "simple", don't invent anything new, take a second look at ADA and you will easily come up with your own design.
> 
> --Nikolay


Niko, after thinking it over I decided to quit smoking and reward myself by using the money that would have burned a hole in my pocket and gone up in smoke (puns intended) to buy a superjet. Not for performance.... Just as an incentive to not smoke and because they look so sexy!

But... I just don't see why you think the superjet is so much better than an Eheim classic 2217.... The 2217 is the same design, holds as much media as an ES-600, has a flow that will be about the same if not slightly higher than the ES-600 when you consider head pressure... So why is Eheim considered ridiculous? Aside from a higher quality pump they seem exactly the same to me, in form and function (obviously SS is higher quality than plastic) but as I mentioned before the 2217 has a faster pump which should make up the difference.

Or were you mainly referring to the newer complex eheims?


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## niko

First - materials. The old models with the ugly war time green color were better. The clear green housings are flimsy.

Second - if someone believes Eheims do not leak I have nothing to say.

Third - the ratings. They are all rated for some XXX gph. In reality they deliver about 60-45% of that.

Fourth - the filter volume. Has to do with the rating. "For aquariums up to XXX gals." is a phrase that makes me look away.

Fifth - these are filters made for fish only tanks. Slow movement of the water through the filter because that is what the Germans believe in. 

Sixth - medias. I don't know who else I need to convince that all you need is biomedia. If you need other medias something is off. Eheim has their view on filtration and it works just fine with all those pads and flow directing ceramics. How come ADA figured they need only Lava Rock then?

Seventh - green hoses and matching stylish pipes. Should I say more?

The ADA overpriced miracle of a filter:
You are paying for something that is, let's be honest, darn close to eternal. So simple - there is nothing to brake. The J-shaped inflow pipe is stolen directly from Eheim. But Eheim's J-pipe is flimsy plastic. And it screws into the canister leaving you with the feeling that it's never tight enough.

The pump - maybe rated the same as Eheim, but it is pressure rated. Meaning it will move water through the media more consistently than the Eheim no-pressure rated pump. Do you REALLY need a pressure rated pump? I really don't think so actually. But for a less-than-inexpensive Eheim they better have one, why not.


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## JustLikeAPill

But don't you think 100 GPH is VERY slow? It is slower than the 2215 or 2217. That is one thing I don't like about superjets... Unless you want to shell out a grand, the only "affordable" model only comes in 100 GPH.

When I eventually get one, you bet my grand kids will inherit it lol. I still think it functions as good as a classic Eheim, but aesthetically you are right. No more green for me!

As for the classics requiring several pads and ehfisubstrat pro and ceramic rings, I truly believe this is a gimmick to make more money to be honest. 

After switching to Bio Rio It definatelt pwns Ehfisubstrat Pro.


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## cino

Yea, I've got to agree, those "green things" had to go YUK......Another way Eheim makes money is to sell you adapter intakes and outputs that are grey and do not have the name Eheim stamped all over them, (I was one of those suckers that could not stand looking at green unless it is in paper form ) are not green and are much less gawdy. Guess Eheim figures it pays to advertize.

Every day I watch my big Eheim slowly move my substrate back as a result of current. Yea, it's still happening JustLikeAPill but at least I am now wise to that trick for the time being. I don't buy that 45 to 60% less thing, but do agree their pump head pressure is not as rated but not by that much less or my 25 inch deep 18 inch wide tank would not have it's substrate re-arranged daily. LOL

Seems to me to be a Japanese vs. German issue at work here.

Sorry guys but I've got both lava rock and Efhastrat pro, mark one vote for the sintered glass Pro, especially since I have found a place to buy it cheap YIPPEE


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## cino

Now I don't know much about anything all you folks out there are talking about. I do believe most any filter off-the-shelf has the potential to leak, usually due to human/user error, not aligned gaskets, sealing gaskets not kept greased and so on.

I also know that the idea of any business, be it to provide a product or service, is to make money. It is when they make total garbage that I get annoyed, one manufacturer comes to mind but there are many others. ADA/ADG makes some wonderful, super nice stuff, apparently very effective stuff but I can not justify in my mind paying $600 for a 100 GPH flow filter. I don't care how much eye appeal a filter has as it is always in a cabinet and not part of our decor'. 

I try to avoid using sponges in my bio-filters but the fact is, they are quite effective at bio-filtration and are highly recommended on many forums. Pad replacement in my only two filters I use them in is done so rarely as per manufactureer recommendation that I don't even think of that as a drawback. I prefer rather to use various pads and trapping medias in mechanical filters, not in my bio-filters. I do not think there is a law carved in stone when it comes to aquarium keeping because there are so many variations and levels of experience out there. Most filters can be used to perform any number of functions depending on the user's needs.

I also can not understand this whole high-flow theory. I was an outdoor person raised in the mountains, (NYC's water shed)very much into the outdoor, woodsy lifestyle. My grandfather was a true mountain man and taught all of his grandchildren to read and respect nature. I was always taught that to get a drink from a stream you needed to find a spot just below where the water had been slowly careening (not rushing) over and through rocks as that was "nature's water purification system". My husband was also taught this as a cub/boy scout. This high flow theory goes against everything I have been taught and lived myself as well as my own experience with fish tanks over the years.


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## JustLikeAPill

Well... If you look at a slow mov river, it is actually more than likely moving at a high GPH but with no turbulence.

You want a filter rated for about ten X your tank volume. Is is the guideline because it will likely only push about 5X the tank volume when you have it up and running. Using my Eheim as an example. It is rated at 180 GPH but only pushes about 120 with no turns in the pipe or Inline equipment.

The hig flow recommendation is talking about the water inside the tank, not the water moving through the filter. I am not sure why you are talking about creek water? The higher flow pick a up debris from the bottom and evenly distributes the nutrients and co2 (if you flow pattern is right)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...478-discussion-laminar-vs-turbulant-flow.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...club/75400-excited-word-about-filtration.html


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## cino

We are talking about a certain volume per area, the passing of water through natural organics (definately small, slower flowing creeks, not rivers). Agreed all tanks do best when turned over at 10 or more times per hour. That is not to say it ALL has to come from a bio filter however. I've seen the effects of too fast of a bio-filter on a tank as in the case of FX5s, they flush too fast and do not work that well even with a light bio-load, great trappers however. They can pull from as far away as 
4' effectively (words of Fluval) but as far as biological performance goes, they lacked far behind other filters such as Renas and Eheims of similar bio-capasity area.


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## JustLikeAPill

Nah, agreed that all of the turnovers don't have to come from the filter. Adding power heads is also fine, but they are ugly so most people try to get a filter that can handle the job.

In fact forcing water too fast through the filter/bio media is bad and makes the media perform inefficiently.


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## cino

Now you understand my meaning. Good Show. That is exactly what happened with our FX5s on a 90 gal. tank. 

I HATE power-heads too, heck, I don't even like heaters but can't do inline because they really don't work that well on tanks over 50 gallons. On my brother-in-laws Oceanic 135 planted tank, I had him cap his overflows (having once been used as a reef) cutting off the sump (his idea, not mine as he didn't want the responsibility of a sump anymore) and behind each of the particians I rigged a Magnum 350 with only the outputs in the tank. He didn't care about the hoses etc. as he had a custom canopy on his system. 

That helped considerably but he still needed more and centrally located so he bought a huge peice of driftwood on a base (which I now own but is currently not in any of our tanks LOL) and we hid a powerhead behind that using the driftwood to deflect the current and keep circulation to the lower areas of the tank. Each over-flow took on water from 2 areas (water level and again midway down) as does mine on my reef. We got rid of the 4 Fluval 405s as he didn't want all the plumbing either from the Fluval intakes and put an Eheim 2080 on the tank (two intakes) and that seemed to work really well. We never had another problem with the tank (until his divorce from my sister, then we inherited everything ((except the fish)) because I got along well with my brother-in-law) and he kept some really big fish. 

I do believe that if these super fast filters were that effective, more manufacturers would be making them as aside from the popular keeping of nanos, the average sized tank these days is 75 gallons, so there would definately be a market for filters 750 gph or more, if only in fish only tanks, marine or freshwater.


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## Justindew

2 Filters is the only way to go for me. Especially when you consider you will run into a problem one day and one of your filters will take a dump. Great to have some kind of filtration while you are waiting for parts on your other filter. Plus I feel like you get more evenly distributed flow around the entire tank.


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## wwh2694

I had setup a 120H tank and been using Eheim 2180 similar to 2080 except it has built in heater. I realy like this filter 2 input and 1 out. Everytime i clean my lily pipe dont have to turn the filter off. I just shut off either input one at the time. The big thing about this 2180 or 2080 its rated for 300 gallon tank. Flow on this is good not to hard not to soft on plants just enough flow to make them move and not become stagnant and i mention again it has 2 input so very good circulation for longer tanks. The 2180 fits alson on my original ADA tank stand height is 28" if u want to know.


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