# Money and the hobby



## Tex Gal

I've read numerous times how the US hobbyists are lacking in their monetary commitment to the hobby. Since we are a leading nation in terms of standard of living, why do you think this is? In the SW side it is quite expensive, yet this doesn't translate over to the freshwater side. We have hobbyists that keep both and I still see that same person being "cheap" with the freshwater side. I see them begging for plants, using sub-par equipment, etc. I watch threads from Indonesia where people spend $1000s with huge tanks built in to atriums and such. 

What are your thoughts?


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## ObiQuiet

In general, it's the capitalist mentality. As an individual, my goal is always to get the lowest price. Businesses respond by lowering their costs.

As a consumer, I don't make the connection that this can drive underpaid waiters, assembly line workers, or janitors to steal from me to feed their families.

There are other countries in the world where it costs $$$ to eat out, clothes cost $$$, taxis cost $$$, but the overall standard of living is the highest on the planet. 

It also makes people much more conscious of quality and value, preservation and conservation.

In specific, perhaps the salt water industry has made use of the "difficulty" of their version of the hobby to create a perception of exclusivity, which they can play to with pricing and marketing? Like golf, sports cars, and other markets where prices greatly exceed the cost of manufacture?


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## doubleott05

it could be that my salary is small and i have to put my faimly first.....

its not a perception ... i think it is a reality. i would say that people that can do reef are well off and understand before they take the plunge that they know what they are getting into and what it takes to keep live peices. i would say anybody can keep a FOWLR but not anybody can keep a reef. 

i had a reef once and i cheaped it out. it was the first generation JBJ Nanocube and i spliced a 10 fuge into it to keep from buying a $300 skimmer. worked like a well oiled machine ..... however i did cheap that out too. 

from one mans POV
THanks
Elliot


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## juantoro

ObiQuiet said:


> In specific, perhaps the salt water industry has made use of the "difficulty" of their version of the hobby to create a perception of exclusivity, which they can play to with pricing and marketing? Like golf, sports cars, and other markets where prices greatly exceed the cost of manufacture?


I agree with this. I think part of the answer is that freshwater is perceived as easier and less technical, but also maybe it is simply that the freshwater planted side of the hobby hasn't caught on here to the degree that it has in other countries for whatever reason.

Is it that we aren't willing to dish out the $$$, or is it that the market just hasn't matured here yet?



ObiQuiet said:


> In general, it's the capitalist mentality. As an individual, my goal is always to get the lowest price. Businesses respond by lowering their costs.
> 
> As a consumer, I don't make the connection that this can drive underpaid waiters, assembly line workers, or janitors to steal from me to feed their families.


A true capitalist strives to get the best value for their money. This is very different from getting the lowest price. Just trying to get stuff as cheap cheap cheap as possible is not capitalism, it is what people label as capitalism (or a "capitalist mentality") so they can blame it for the current state of affairs.



ObiQuiet said:


> There are other countries in the world where it costs $$$ to eat out, clothes cost $$$, taxis cost $$$, but the overall standard of living is the highest on the planet.
> 
> It also makes people much more conscious of quality and value, preservation and conservation.


What is the "It" in this last sentence?


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## ObiQuiet

juantoro said:


> A true capitalist strives to get the best value for their money. This is very different from getting the lowest price.


Granted.



juantoro said:


> What is the "It" in this last sentence?


The high price.


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## Coralite

As a "born again" freshwater aquatic gardener after a decade of exclusively marine tanks, I saw the value of high tech planted tanks in being singularly able to show the full beauty of certain plant species, much in the same way that corals can be grown in moderate light, but they won't really thrive unless they get what they want. I learned that in the aquarium hobby you get out of it,what you put into it. I guess some people are into aquariums less as a hobby and more as an ornament, and those people don't really want to make the effort to have slammin aquariums that make visitors really say Wow.


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## Michael

I am a hobbyist on a tight budget, and this makes me ambivalent on the issue.

On one hand, I resent that common materials, devices, tools, and chemicals triple or quadruple in price when the word "aquarium" goes on the label. Examples are polyester fiberl (a.k.a. filter floss), gluteraldehyde (a.k.a. Flourish Excel), and any number of common horticultural products which are the same thing as expensive substrates.

On the other hand, it repulses me that hobbyists do not demand and will not pay for healthy, tank-raised fish kept in humane conditions. Instead, we flock to Pet Megalomart when the otos are on sale for $2.98 even though these fish suffer huge mortality in capture and shipping, and often do not survive even after they make it into our aquaria. Similarly, we will not pay the price for healthy plants kept in optimum conditions, but will buy plants from retail chains stored in the dark and packaged in plastic tubes even when the plants are actually terrestrial and will not survive submerged anyway.

Maybe if we were willing to pay prices for livestock that reflect the real cost of keeping these animals and plants alive and healthy, retailers would not find it necessary to put an exorbitant mark-up on polyester fiber and fish meal (a.k.a. Tropi-Colorific Supreme Floating Morsels).

Or maybe I just hate modern marketing, LOL!


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## ObiQuiet

Michael said:


> I resent that common materials, devices, tools, and chemicals triple or quadruple in price when the word "aquarium" goes on the label.


So do I. That's not an increase in value or quality, just price. Personally, I like the challenge and satisfaction of finding an equivalent alternative, or recycle/reuse, or just making something work well and look good without money. The less I spend, the more I like it -- unless I'm shortchanging a shop owner, employee, or livestock.


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## TAB

IME, salt water/reef have np dumping cash into thier tanks, but fresh water hobbyist won't pay a dime.


I build alot of stuff for the local reef community, no one questions my prices.

Just recently I had a guy that wanted me to give him a price on a custom sump for his fresh water tank. He was floored when I told him it would be $1000, for the diamentions he wanted. Of corse I got the "why so much?" question. I tried to explain to him that there was $800 in just arcylite gp( 2x 1/2" sheets) he just could not wrap his head around that price. I've built 10-15 that size in the last 5 ish years, for reefers and had zero complaints about price or quality.

oh well.


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## Error

Saltwater is touted as the 'gold standard' for aquarium opulence, and that makes everything else fall by the wayside.

I work as a Horticulture Consultant for a rich realtor in my city and he has a large, expensive and beautiful reef aquarium. When I showed him pictures of Amano tanks, however, he wanted to know why he hadn't seen anything like it before.

It's an exposure thing. It's also about spectacle. Both of these items tie into the 'american capitalist bigger is better' mentality.

It's a culture thing. When you have people constantly telling you that SW reefs are the exclusive diamond of fishkeeping, that's what you're going to believe, and you're not going to spend money on anything else.

Supply and demand. Demand is low; supply follows suit.


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## Newt

Planted tanks are and have been very poular in Europe and I think they are well ahead of us in knowledge of the hobby. Why? I think its because they have much better equipment available to them that is proven technology and they have been at it longer.

I may be wrong but I also have a feeling many of the American planted tank hobbyists are young and dont have the cash to buy top of the line equipment and improvise.

Desire vs Wallet.................Wallet usually wins.


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## Robert Henry

There's also the general impression that staple freshwater fish are a diime a dozen. An individual who spends $40 or more on each saltwater fish or coral is willing to spend $1,000 or more on an appropriate setup. People are less reluctant to spend that amount to house some $3 freshwater fishes or plants.


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## Tex Gal

Robert Henry said:


> There's also the general impression that staple freshwater fish are a dime a dozen. An individual who spends $40 or more on each saltwater fish or coral is willing to spend $1,000 or more on an appropriate setup. People are less reluctant to spend that amount to house some $3 freshwater fishes or plants.


I think that's a good point! I'm all for saving a dollar when I can, like buying generic excel, fiber floss etc. but some things such as plants selection, rimless tanks, etc you have to anti-up for. Since there are only a few willing to pay for some of these considered "luxuries" we end up with limited availability. I would love for this part of the hobby to change.

So are some telling me that SW side is dominated by the "older set" and FW side is the younger people?


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## lanceduffy

Wow, texgal. This is a BIG question. I just started to respond but after rereading my response, I have to say that I must take awhile to consider my answer. Good Job!


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## TAB

having had both, a reef takes actually alot less time/work then a planted tank.

Part of that is the "toys", part is the growth rate diffrence. Plants grow so much faster.


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## rod

I blame the industry itself. There is more money to be made in SW than freshwater so that's where stores try to push you. Every fish store you go into has a huge SW display. How many stores do you see with a nice planted display. NONE in my area. If they do sell plants it's in a small aquarium with inadaquate lighting, so why would a customer spend as much money on something that doesn't look as nice. 
Follow the money, there's more money to be made from SW then planted.


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## houseofcards

Robert Henry said:


> There's also the general impression that staple freshwater fish are a diime a dozen. An individual who spends $40 or more on each saltwater fish or coral is willing to spend $1,000 or more on an appropriate setup. People are less reluctant to spend that amount to house some $3 freshwater fishes or plants.


I'm in this camp as well. *In the USA people are more willing to spend large money on a setup around fish, but not one around plants.* When I say fish I'm referring to saltwater, where the fish are many times the focus of the tank and not the scape. Most saltwater setups also have UVs to protect their fish (investment) most freshwater aquarists do not use one especially for this purpose.


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## davemonkey

Newt said:


> Desire vs Wallet.................Wallet usually wins.


Ditto! I (and a few others that I can think of) would be perfectly willing to plop down any amount of cash on proper equipment for a planted tank, but the "wallet" simply won't allow it. In my case, it's a matter of making due with lower quality or improvised replacements until the right stuff can be purchased. Example, If I had $500 to drop on a new filter for my planted tank, I'd do it without blinking. But, the money simply isn't there...so I have to wait until it is...


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## Tex Gal

davemonkey said:


> Ditto! I (and a few others that I can think of) would be perfectly willing to plop down any amount of cash on proper equipment for a planted tank, but the "wallet" simply won't allow it. In my case, it's a matter of making due with lower quality or improvised replacements until the right stuff can be purchased. Example, If I had $500 to drop on a new filter for my planted tank, I'd do it without blinking. But, the money simply isn't there...so I have to wait until it is...


I certainly get this, but it doesn't explain the SW side of the industry. There are the same money constraints in peoples' lives.



rod said:


> I blame the industry itself. There is more money to be made in SW than freshwater so that's where stores try to push you. Every fish store you go into has a huge SW display. How many stores do you see with a nice planted display. NONE in my area. If they do sell plants it's in a small aquarium with inadaquate lighting, so why would a customer spend as much money on something that doesn't look as nice.
> Follow the money, there's more money to be made from SW then planted.


I think that is a good point, but if they brought in the rare plants and the high tech stuff and set-up a display, keeping it in good stead they would begin selling the stuff. It's a catch 22 for them. They must have a HUGE capital investment in the SW side. Even if they had a flat screen TV with pxs of amazing scapes revolving on the screen over their plants that would draw people...


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## ObiQuiet

Tex Gal said:


> I certainly get this, but it doesn't explain the SW side of the industry. There are the same money constraints in peoples' lives.


It may be self-selection at work. A big factor in my own choice for FW was that I couldn't afford SW. That, and I was extremely impressed by what people here could do with the art...!


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## davemonkey

rod said:


> I blame the industry itself. There is more money to be made in SW than freshwater so that's where stores try to push you. Every fish store you go into has a huge SW display. How many stores do you see with a nice planted display. NONE in my area. If they do sell plants it's in a small aquarium with inadaquate lighting, so why would a customer spend as much money on something that doesn't look as nice.
> Follow the money, there's more money to be made from SW then planted.


I see this point and I like Tex Gal's response to it. Most stores probably don't understand how to push the "planted" side of the hobby. If they were able to really understand it and see the market potential, maybe that would change. Seems to me that hobby groups could have an impact here. For one person to go into a store and tout the praises of planted aquaia is one thing, but for an organization/club to go in and show the store owners the potential and some real "how-to" on making their displays look good, that might be enough to push the planted hobby forward more.

Look at the equipment that's currently available. Every year we see new and more powerful filters, better heaters, light fixtures, bulbs specifically geared toward planted tank, fertilization supplements, CO2 equipment...the tools are there...what stores lack is the know-how of setting up the sales area for planted tanks and how to incorporate the right equipment.

(Not to brag, but we actually have a store in Houston (Pearland) that is getting set up right now to cater to planted tank enthusiasts on a level that should equal the attention given to Salt Water!! )


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## davemonkey

...and we are moving forward as a hobby. Just look at everyone's favorite hobby magazine (TFH). Even they have incorporated planted tanks into their issues. They run "Aquatic Plant of the Month" as well as a 2-3 page section on Planted Tanks and another full feature on ADA/Nature Aquariums. In addition to that, half of the mini-series type articles feature planted aquaria. Even this most recent "Import Report" is fully dedicated to plants.

Maybe our local stores need to *read* the magazine more often instead of just sellnig it.


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## niko

I've been annoyed with this state of the planted tank hobby for some time now. You have seen me make fun of cheap folk, DIY project that make little sense and so on. I too wrote a lengthy response to this thread last night but deleted it after reading it over.

The stores see the fw hobby as a way to gradually lead people to the saltwater side of the hobby which is where the money is. So it appears that stores are not going to do much to popularize planted tanks. Here in Dallas/Fort Worth very much every store has tried to push planted tanks and all of them eventually give up. Big part of that is the inability of these "experts" to maintain a planted tank. And they would not pay someone to do it for them because they are cheap. I know a single store owner in the DFW that has a "vision" but he is realistic about what he does too. The rest just sell on sickly cheap fw fish and the usual obsolete fw equipment.

Culture plays a big part in how the planted tank hobby is viewed. Hispanics and Asians have a thing for anything water and are more sensitive to the beauty of a planted tanks. As we all know a planted tank takes some time to "sink" into one's mind as something truly exquisite. Most people "do not have time" to let this happen. But the truth is that it's about sensitivity and perception. And as I've said before - a mystery meat hamburger is valued more than a ultra rare wildcaught fish. Plants aren't even in the competition. I don't know where "beauty" goes in this list...

The only way this hobby will become more popular as something special is through planted tank clubs. These are the only outfits that have the drive + knowledge to make that happen. Look at ADG - with all their potential and actual beyond gorgeous installations they have not made a big difference in how the hobby is seen.

And to conclude - you have seen me try to direct everybody's attention to better, more guaranteed ways to run a planted tank. I do believe that a huge part of this hobby being where it is (funny articles in funny fish magazines is the best we can be proud of) is the lack of knowledge HOW to run a planted tank. That is what ADA has figured out a long time ago and has developed/marketed their system as both elegant and manageable. But even today noone can direct me to a single website containing this information in English.

So. It's all up to us.

--Nikolay


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## jeff5614

It seems as though there is a disdain among some in the hobby for any "higher end" product, which I just don't understand. How many times, especially on other forums, when you see anything ADA mentioned does someone invariably make a derogatory comment toward the products or even Amano himself.


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## neilshieh

I agree with all that has been said, one point that really surprised me from its truth was the comment by Robert Henry. Asides from the price of the fish influencing money spent on other things, it also gives the fw hobby an image of lower quality. The 20cent feeder goldfish is what comes to mind when someone thinks about keeping freshwater fish. Personally I think it’s from the way fish are marketed to the mass public. Like to smaller children they stereotype fish keeping into either keeping goldfish in a bowl or a nice saltwater tank. Keeping plants isn’t even in the picture to begin with. All they know are corals, sea anemones, etc. Even if someone does stumble across the realm of plant keeping, they apply terrestrial gardening to plants, but in reality plant keeping is so much more complicated than just soil, water, and sunshine. And the comment about how the term aquarium/aquatic automatically raises the price is so true. We aren’t cheap, we just want to find better sources that aren’t widely available as resources are to SW aquarists. When I’m looking around for co2 stuff and I tell them it’s for my fish tank, I get the weirdest look as if I was crazy. With saltwater, all their equipment is supplied by virtually any store that deals with fish. As for the popularity of the FW hobby, it’s just not worth the effort/money for a planted tanks. Most stores just add a small inadequate plant tank so that customers might buy some to add to the total money spent. Stores also lack the general knowledge on how to take care of plants. Given the poor condition of plants when customers see them at LFS or petsmart, it’s not as visually pleasing and enticing to buy and grow. Most people impulsively buy fish at fish stores based on their appearances and have no real knowledge or foresight on what they are doing. If amano’s tanks and other very nice scapes were advertised and shown more, I’m sure opinions would change.


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## Robert Henry

I agree that stores generally don't promote planted tanks as we'd like them to, but remember that it's a business, and if they can make a buck by cutting costs - they will. Very few stores equip their tanks with suitable lighting, Co2 injection, suitable substrate, etc. just to sell plants. The few that do are typically smaller mom & pop stores that have trouble competing with mega-giant fish-mart chain stores. I've lived on Long Island all my life (a long time) and I've seen many many local fish stores close their doors - it's rather disheartening that here in the New York City area it's getting harder and harder to find a good LFS.


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## houseofcards

I don't think you can really fight culture. Culture dictates what a LFS will stock. They aren't going to lose their shirts to promote a hobby. The chains make all their money from dog/cat feed/supplies. They amount generated from fish is probably around 5%. They will never put much behind it. 

I've used this analogy before and I think it holds some truth. Soccer is appreciated in many cultures as the beautiful game. Not a lot of scoring, but many appreciate how everything comes together. Baseball/Football are big in US because something big happens. A homerun or a long touch down pass. I equate Soccer to Planted Tanks and Baseball/Football to Saltwater. In planted their usually isn't a main player but the scape works as a whole. In saltwater it's about the big expensive fish and everything plays off that. I just don't think many appreciate the beauty of a scape or they simply haven't really been exposed to it.


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## cino

I have to agree with Error in that response. Planted aquariums do not get the exposure that marine aquariums do. I believe in time this will change as reef keeping is becoming more and more cost prohibitive in many areas. If I had it all to do over again I would NOT have a reef.

People do not normally see the huge variety of muliple colored plants available as they are generally not sold in regular pet/aquarium supply stores. People have no idea what is really out there. Among the reasons why people were attracted to reefs was the challenge. They see freshwater anything as being a "simpleton's" hobby, not even worth a second glance. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH HOWEVER. Keeping planted aquariums is a definate science just as is keeping a reef. It is a balance of minerals (micro and macro) water quality, aggressive filtration, whether it comes from the plants or filtration/water movement. We've brought a few friends into natural aquarium keeping since we started. Reefs were a bit much but they were amazed at the challenges and time commitments that goes into keeping a planted aquarium.

We are currently using our 6 planted aquariums to supply plants to a friend's pet shop. His store specialized in "marine" but after the sharp down-turn in the economy he realized he needed something different. I convinced him to set up a few plant tanks. When we first started bringing in some of our plants our friend could not believe there was so much color and texture out there. I own a 220 gal. reef system so I am accustomed to seeing color in a tank. When I set up our first planted aquariums I sought out color and contrast in the freshwater hobby as well.

We gave up our pretty aquascapes, putting our driftwood and rocks into storage (much to the dismay of our discus) to help a friend but also to show people what is really out there. We set up a display aquarium (not for sale) in the store to which we re-arrange periodically to keep interest. I am happy to say that we are attracting new people to the hobby because of what we sell. We do not make any money on it ourselves vs. our overhead but to my husband and myself, it is a labor of love. 

People need to see right in front of their eyes what all of us here on this forum already know.


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## neilshieh

if you've ever walked into AFA in san francisco, it's like walking into a dream, no joke. It just takes the breath out of your lungs when you see the beauty of all the scapes they have, scapes maintained and managed by 2 people! when i look at reef systems, it's like eh... interesting but the colors don't appeal as much as a freshwater scape. the colors in a scape are more sharp and almost panoramic. maybe it's just because of the blue hue from actnic bulbs they use which makes everything a dull blue-grey save for the corals and fish. i also think the hobby isn't taken into much consideration because those who do have freshwater tanks are most likely still of the pink gravel and plastic plant variety, which deteriorates the image of the FW hobby, while most reefers have decent-spectacular tanks and when people see those they automatically think reefing is more modern/sophisticated.


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## cino

I'd like to post another reply if I may. 

With having my friend who has owned his (and his wife's)pet store for 22 years now, I believe another issue is some of the smaller "Mom and Pop" pet stores are feeling more and more helpless when it comes to either the big mega chains or ONLINE competition. It is almost like "why bother". It took a bit of convincing but our friend installed CO2 and has reluctantly switched his brand new bulbs at our request.

But Alas, we are getting off the subject here. Doing a quality planted tank is much like doing a reef in that there are different levels of difficulty and with those levels goes various forms of equipment. The average person in the FW hobby does not see the need to spend mega bucks on equipment. Only if you wish to keep a specialized tank do you realize (as you learn) that there is a big difference in equipment and how to get the most out of that equipment. THE FRESHWATER HOBBY IS BASICALLY DOMINATED BY BEGINNERS, or people who just want a tank for the sake of having a tank. Serious people such as those of us on this forum know what it takes to maintain a Dutch/Killie/Discus, any specialized aquarium. I see many of you out there who have big Eheims, CO2 injection, multiple bulb fixtures, elaborate tank systems such as built-ins.........yea, we spend the bucks IF we know that is what we need to do. As a discus hobbyist I know what a large discus cost me. Get five of those in a tank and having a second rate filter makes no sense. We are older and about to retire so our budget, although always existant, we have learned the advantages of buying the right product the first time around instead of searching and buying multiple products which ends up costing more in the long run and not working anyway. We are HUGE fans of Eheim in this household and have found that although very touchy and fickle, the Eheim wet/dry has worked the best on our tanks in terms of nutrient export to which build-up leads to algae. We also have the Eheim Pro 3 and Pro 3E but we seem to get the very best performance out of our wet/dries.

Just sharing our observations and "WHAT WORKS FOR US".


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## JustLikeAPill

Having had both a planted tank and a saltwater reef (years ago), this is my opinion:

Planted tanks are a lot cheaper, but a lot more difficult. The learnng curve is a lot steeper than with a reef tank. It is a lot easier to remove all Nitrogen and Phosphorous and dissolved organc compounds with resins and protein skimmers and in some cases denitrification filters and these days biopellets.

It is harder to maintain a balance of nutrients, carbon dioxide and light in a planted tank. Also on the subject of how much advanced equipment there is for saltwater compared to freshwater... Think about it. Planted tanks don't need the intense light, the protein skimming, the complicated sumps, reactors, resins. 


In addition to this, the biodiversity in a saltwater/reef tank is extraordinary! There are so many types of shrimp, coral, fish, snails, crabs, starfish etc. The colors and patterns of most of the commonly kept fish are incredible and the corals turn fluorescent under actinic light, have interesting behavior of their own (eating, moving.) 

I think that saltwater creatures are very "alien" and novel and that is what draws some people do them, while freshwater is familiar and boring to some. I think saltwater offers a gaudy sort of beauty with an immediate bang, while freshwater offers a more subtle beauty that takes a special type of person to appreciate. 


One thing I would like to mention is that I hate it when people cut corners and are cheap. If you want thw hobby to advance, then you should support the companies that do research and development of aquatic plant/ fish products. DIYing (with some exceptions, like filter floss, etc.) does not help advance the hobby. Am I saying to go out and buy an ADA Grand Solar for your tank? No, but I am saying that if you want to advance the hobby, don't buy a Hamilton Bay desk light from home depot just because itis "good enough." Using DIY yeast in a milk jug does not advance the hobby. 
I am not putting people down who can't afford the nice aquarium equipment and DIY out of neccesity, but I think beiing cheap for the sake of being cheap does the hobby a disservice.

Saltwater setups are only as expensve as you make em and there are different levels of difficulty and expense, just like with freshwater. You can easy coral like mushrooms and various soft corals that can live in relatively low lght, with a bit more money moderate difficulty you can have LPS which are my favorite, but if you want giant clams, SPS coral and anemones then that is a serious investment and commitment to the care and maintenance of these creatures. Dosing and light are critical as well as nutrient export. A $50-$100 plus coral that is slow growing is a lo different than a fast growing plant that costs $1-10 bucks. You aren't going to shell out a lot of money on livestock and then be cheap when it comes tp equipment to care for them. It is a recipe for disaster if you want high end coral but are cheap and lazy when it comes to light, maintenance, water chemistry etc.

You can grow coral under expensive LED's and expwnsive protiein skimmers and all the otherbells and whistles... Or you can have a basic setup with basic livestock under basic lighting and still be successful. It all depens on your budget, desires and commitment.


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## cino

I am still laughing JustlikeAPILL!!!!! YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON MOST ALL COUNTS and we like your to-the-point style. The only area where I do not share your view is in the use of resins as we do not believe in them and feel that if there is a need for such, there must be a problem which should be rooted out. I do find that knowledge learned on either side of the fence has been an asset to the other side however so we are glad to be able to do both. We've only been doing planted aquariums for about 4 years now vs. over 20 years with the reef. We are not advanced hobbyists in either however. 

We too do not believe in DIY ideas. These companies who do the research and offer superior products need our business or their superior products will not be around for long. Having been in the hobby for longer than I care to admit I've seen many good products come and go, sadly enough.

I loved your exception to filter floss.  Funny but we still find floss to be the best trapping media out there. We buy it in bulk since we use it on ALL 7 of our systems, be it planted or reef.

Thanks for your wise words. THESE COMPANIES NEED OUR SUPPORT


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## JustLikeAPill

Thank you : ) I am 21 and had a 75 gallon reef tank for three years until about five years ago. Guess resins like chemi pure aren't used anymore.

I was into reefs back when VHO T12 fluorescents were pretty high tech to give you an idea ;P things have really changed. 

The only reason I dont have a reef now is a lack of space for more than one small tank in my dorm at college, and a lack of time for more than one tank. When I graduate and have my own place I will definately have a 20-30 gallon reef setup, because I love both planted and reef tanks in seperate but equal ways. I have to admit that I enjoy the equipment for both fresh and salt water as much as the livestock. Maybe that is weird but I like having and working with nice equipment. 

Whoever said nano tanks were for people with a low budget is full of it, but the way. I have an all ADA mini setup and it is a fortune... But you can't get that aesthetic with even the best DIY skills, and spendng all that dough supports Aqarium Desgn Group (I can't reccomend them more highly!) as well as Aqua Design Amano, which advances the hobby.

I would rather support ADG and ADA than Hamilton Bay.


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## cino

You are more than welcome!!!!! You deserve it. I am not familiar with ADA other since finding this forum but I am going to really look into their product line. You get what you pay for! 

Funny but we have more tanks than we can fit in our house. I can't imagine being restricted to a dorm...LOL

"You brought up a very important FACT. A nano aquarium is about the most difficult. They are far more unstable, hence volitile, because of their small volume of water. Hats off to anyone who can successfully do a specialized nano and yes, by all means, "nanos are NOT CHEAP"

Best of luck to You


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## cino

PS. I do not want to say much about Chemi-Pure since this is a planted forum but yes, it does seem to be dying out in popularity. It use to be the cure-all for everything a prot. skimmer or denitro filter could not do.


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## JustLikeAPill

Yeah... A nano reef just requires far too much time for someone in my position and there is little room for error when it comes to slacking off. 

If you want the new ADA catalogue, PM me and i will givw it to you. ADG send me a new one with each order so I would rather give it away than throw it away.

ADA is like Elos but for freshwater.


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## niko

Money and the hobby... Maybe this video has nothing to do with it. But it made me weep:






Somehow it reminded me of Uncle Rico's selling tactics:





And here's somethin more interesting:


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## Tex Gal

I've read all the posts and my head is swimming. I do see some points worth noting

1. Until enough people are exposed, mass appeal, which will bring in the $$$ to the hobby won't happen. 
2. Right now public opinion about FW is tanks and fish in big box stores. Cheap dirty, dying plants and floaters. No one is gonna spend big bucks on that. Even few LFS have decent FW tanks
3. Since availability is limited this encourages online sales which further undercuts LFS who are the main people to change perception
4. The learning curve is steep with few experts, except maybe online, to talk to or learn from.
5. Following the money leads to SW in our current industry. 

Sounds like we are the only ones who can change perception. We could offer free pxs of tanks and plants in those revolving frames to be placed at checkouts to LFS. We could support those doing eBooks with free pxs and our knowledge. We could support our local plant clubs. We could set up tanks at libraries and schools and volunteer to maintain them. 

I'm not sure I agree that there is so much more biodiversity in SW as opposed to FW. If you look in the invert side at all the amazing and colorful shrimp , snails, clams,etc available now its incredible. We don't know what is out there because we don't see it in this country. Think apistos and rams and rainbows, discus, tetras, plecos, killies etc. The sheer color, size and amount of possibilities can be mind numbing. When these are placed in planted tanks the effect is breathtaking. I think that's why we have all been asked, "is it salt water?". I'm not sure anything will change in my lifetime. I do know that this is why I am always in search of the next rare plant, the unique fish, the cool rocks. I want the beauty I see available in other countries. I want to grow the rare plants and share them with others. I want to spread them around the hobby so we, in the US don't loose that plant. Maybe we all have to make a difference in our own little corner.


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## Margit

Hi,

this whole discussion centres around a very strange argument: commitment is proportionate to the amount of money spent (the size of the diamond is an accurate measure of love, right?)... you need advanced technology to have a "nature" tank... when, in fact, few things are more unnatural than Amano-style set ups: manicured lawns, a jumble of plants thrown together irrespective of origins, garden paths lined by bonsai trees... When I read some tank journals, inspiration invariably comes from landscapes or fairy tales ("enchanted forest"); seems none of the scapers ever went through the trouble to study biotopes or put on a set of goggles to take a good look around under water. 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a showy, albeit unnatural planted tank; some people prefer sculptured boxwood to a garden that's running wild. And so need CO2 and fancy lighting. It's legitimate to do so - but it's not the height of the hobby... and when the beautiful technology breaks down (failed valve), you've gassed your fish to death... 

When I got my first aquarium some 40 off years ago, there wasn't this obsession with names, either. Now, discussion titles announce "my new ADA...", which leaves you totally in the dark about what type of set up to expect... more often than not, you find a global fish soup, nonchalantly throwing together rasboras and tetras, otocinclus and dwarf gouramis... with a jumble of veggies that were thrown in not because they belong together or have similar needs or represent a biotope, but because of texture, colour accents or dramatic staging... Again, if it floats your boat, it's legitimate. But it doesn't mean that you've arrived at the pinnacle of the hobby or that you're setting standards. All it means that there exist many ways to skin a cat, some with technology, others with little or none. But don't take money as a yardstick for seriousness... and do take a minute to consider the ecological costs... chances are that your set up is sustainable only as long as the friendly neighbourhood nuclear plant doesn't blow up... 

Personally, I will never inject CO2. But I think that the hobbyist, who spends time thinking about producing CO2 from a recycled bottle and some yeast and sugar is more serious than the one buying ready-made solutions with pressure tanks... if not more serious, at least more sustainable.

Finally, I have spent months thinking about how I can run a successful tank that is sustainable in an environment, where I can't take a steady supply of electricity for granted. I now use sunlight only, a heater for those chilly Nairobi nights and a circulation pump. My tank is locally made. No filtration; instead, I rely on plants. If there should be no electricity for a month, my tank will still provide a stable environment. Before y'all preach technology, try a bit harder catching up on ecology... 

Greetings from Nairobi

Margit


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## Tex Gal

@ Margit- I feel the need to respond to your post. My responses are in blue. I will quote your line first and then respond

..this whole discussion centres around a very strange argument: commitment is proportionate to the amount of money spent (the size of the diamond is an accurate measure of love, right?)...

Wrong - the question was not how committed you are to the hobby by show of $$$ spent. It was why are people willing to shell out the $$$ in salt water but not freshwater? Why is there such availability of species flora and fauna in the SW side but not FW side? Usually that comes down to the profitability margin because without the demand there is not supply. If it costs to stock it and bring it in then people have to be willing to buy it.

you need advanced technology to have a "nature" tank... 

No one ever said this. We have an entire forum dedicated to "el natural" style methodology. This discussion wasn't necessarily about a "nature" tank, just FW scapes in general. I'm not even sure there is an official definition of a "nature" tank.

When I read some tank journals, inspiration invariably comes from landscapes or fairy tales ("enchanted forest"); seems none of the scapers ever went through the trouble to study biotopes or put on a set of goggles to take a good look around under water.

I don't think these type of aquascapes claim to be biotopes. Why would you assume that they are lacking in education about them?

There is nothing wrong with wanting a showy, albeit unnatural planted tank; some people prefer sculptured boxwood to a garden that's running wild. And so need CO2 and fancy lighting. It's legitimate to do so - but it's not the height of the hobby... and when the beautiful technology breaks down (failed valve), you've gassed your fish to death... 

I'm not sure what is at the "height of the hobby". I do know that the aquascape winners are using the fancy equipment. Most that use CO2 have many fail-safe's built into their setups. For me I have a double guage regulator to prevent end of tank dump, a Ph controller and even then I never turn my CO2 higher than it could hurt my fish EVEN if it were continuously running. No one wants to hurt their fish or livestock. Mistakes can happen, even in a set-up like yours.

... Again, if it floats your boat, it's legitimate. But it doesn't mean that you've arrived at the pinnacle of the hobby or that you're setting standards. All it means that there exist many ways to skin a cat, some with technology, others with little or none. But don't take money as a yardstick for seriousness... and do take a minute to consider the ecological costs... chances are that your set up is sustainable only as long as the friendly neighbourhood nuclear plant doesn't blow up...

This is your 2nd use of "it's legitimate" and then you end up with the ecological costs, neighborhood nuclear plant... It's quite clear in your tone that you do not think it's legitimate. We could go on and on about ecology and personal beliefs but this discussion is not about that. Also since you missed the premise of the discussion NOT being about commitment to hobby = $$$ spent you are off topic. No one is trying to decide a winner here or set standards. This is just a discussion

Finally, I have spent months thinking about how I can run a successful tank that is sustainable in an environment, where I can't take a steady supply of electricity for granted. I now use sunlight only, a heater for those chilly Nairobi nights and a circulation pump. My tank is locally made. No filtration; instead, I rely on plants. If there should be no electricity for a month, my tank will still provide a stable environment. Before y'all preach technology, try a bit harder catching up on ecology...

Good for you. I'm glad you have achieved your goal. No one faults you or would want to take this away from you. This was not a thread about preaching technology to sacrifice ecology, which seems to be what you espouse. For me it's more about what amazing availability there is in other countries of flora and fauna and why we don't have it in the US when we do have a high standard of living. What is it that keeps it from this country? Many have said it it that the $$$ aren't there to sustain the availability. I think you missed the point. You sound angry and judgmental. I love the diversity. I don't keep or have biotopes. It's not because I don't know about them. It's not because I think they are inferior. I want to enjoy as many species of things as I can in my spaces. I don't expect you to be me. I'm glad you are happy. I don't want to be forced to be you either. We can all be ourselves and enjoy the hobby.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## jeff5614

Tex Gal said:


> @ Margit- I feel the need to respond to your post. My responses are in blue. I will quote your line first and then respond
> 
> ..this whole discussion centres around a very strange argument: commitment is proportionate to the amount of money spent (the size of the diamond is an accurate measure of love, right?)...
> 
> Wrong - the question was not how committed you are to the hobby by show of $$$ spent. It was why are people willing to shell out the $$$ in salt water but not freshwater? Why is there such availability of species flora and fauna in the SW side but not FW side? Usually that comes down to the profitability margin because without the demand there is not supply. If it costs to stock it and bring it in then people have to be willing to buy it.
> 
> you need advanced technology to have a "nature" tank...
> 
> No one ever said this. We have an entire forum dedicated to "el natural" style methodology. This discussion wasn't necessarily about a "nature" tank, just FW scapes in general. I'm not even sure there is an official definition of a "nature" tank.
> 
> When I read some tank journals, inspiration invariably comes from landscapes or fairy tales ("enchanted forest"); seems none of the scapers ever went through the trouble to study biotopes or put on a set of goggles to take a good look around under water.
> 
> I don't think these type of aquascapes claim to be biotopes. Why would you assume that they are lacking in education about them?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with wanting a showy, albeit unnatural planted tank; some people prefer sculptured boxwood to a garden that's running wild. And so need CO2 and fancy lighting. It's legitimate to do so - but it's not the height of the hobby... and when the beautiful technology breaks down (failed valve), you've gassed your fish to death...
> 
> I'm not sure what is at the "height of the hobby". I do know that the aquascape winners are using the fancy equipment. Most that use CO2 have many fail-safe's built into their setups. For me I have a double guage regulator to prevent end of tank dump, a Ph controller and even then I never turn my CO2 higher than it could hurt my fish EVEN if it were continuously running. No one wants to hurt their fish or livestock. Mistakes can happen, even in a set-up like yours.
> 
> ... Again, if it floats your boat, it's legitimate. But it doesn't mean that you've arrived at the pinnacle of the hobby or that you're setting standards. All it means that there exist many ways to skin a cat, some with technology, others with little or none. But don't take money as a yardstick for seriousness... and do take a minute to consider the ecological costs... chances are that your set up is sustainable only as long as the friendly neighbourhood nuclear plant doesn't blow up...
> 
> This is your 2nd use of "it's legitimate" and then you end up with the ecological costs, neighborhood nuclear plant... It's quite clear in your tone that you do not think it's legitimate. We could go on and on about ecology and personal beliefs but this discussion is not about that. Also since you missed the premise of the discussion NOT being about commitment to hobby = $$$ spent you are off topic. No one is trying to decide a winner here or set standards. This is just a discussion
> 
> Finally, I have spent months thinking about how I can run a successful tank that is sustainable in an environment, where I can't take a steady supply of electricity for granted. I now use sunlight only, a heater for those chilly Nairobi nights and a circulation pump. My tank is locally made. No filtration; instead, I rely on plants. If there should be no electricity for a month, my tank will still provide a stable environment. Before y'all preach technology, try a bit harder catching up on ecology...
> 
> Good for you. I'm glad you have achieved your goal. No one faults you or would want to take this away from you. This was not a thread about preaching technology to sacrifice ecology, which seems to be what you espouse. For me it's more about what amazing availability there is in other countries of flora and fauna and why we don't have it in the US when we do have a high standard of living. What is it that keeps it from this country? Many have said it it that the $$$ aren't there to sustain the availability. I think you missed the point. You sound angry and judgmental. I love the diversity. I don't keep or have biotopes. It's not because I don't know about them. It's not because I think they are inferior. I want to enjoy as many species of things as I can in my spaces. I don't expect you to be me. I'm glad you are happy. I don't want to be forced to be you either. We can all be ourselves and enjoy the hobby.


[/QUOTE]

Amen.


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## niko

Well, with Margit here we see another extreme side of the hobby - the ultra-natural if I can call it that way.

I have finally started to understand that in this life things work best when there is a ballance. I truly dislike tanks with too much fancy equipment. And you really don't need it anyway. But some folk lean to the opposite side of the spectrum - away from Margit. To them the little gadgets "make" the tank run. I personally believe that things like a pH controller, Dropchecker, precise fertilizing, and even AquaSoil are not really needed to run a high tech planted tank. But many people believe in the need to use all these things.

Between these two opposites - ultra-natural and ultra-high-tech lies the "golden middle". I think it has the best of both worlds - simplicity, knowledge about plants/requirements, but also freedom due to use of special equipment. Without special lights and CO2 you are limited to being able to grow only certain plants. With this freedom comes the tendency to do stupid things - mix plants with different requirements, from diffrerent parts of the world and so on. A good parallel example are the photo websites where anyone can post their pictures. With the progress of digital photography we saw more and more bad photographs. To the point at which some sites are just full of images that we have seen hundreds of times before. With planted tanks though we are yet to start to understand what is cheesy and what not. To me personally all these cute little moss trees, waterfalls, miniature underwater mountains etc. are pure kitsch. But for some people they are very cool. I don't spare ridicule when I find something stupid in this hobby, but I have never, ever, criticised a "kitschy" tank:



















http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch

So, somewhere in the future we should see a hobby that is more mature, ballanced and with a better understanding of Nature. For now, only about a decade after Amano gave new life to the planted aquarium hobby we are still in the baby step stages. Look at the way we run our tanks - we don't even have a streamlined methods of doing that. If we are honest about it we will agree that if EI and PPS were that great most of us would have adopted them a long time ago. My point is not to mock these two approaches, but to make the point that we are still figuring things out.

In these first stages we will all agree that the hobby needs an improved image. It needs not to be seen as "cheap", "diy", "free plants", and "hard to do". Lack of financial basis stifles this hobby badly. Most people here know me - in the last 3 years I imported ultra rare pet fish and sold them online. We had to shut down the business because... people would not pay enough for fish that are so rare that don't even have a scientific name yet. In 2010 only we imported 250 species of fish that you cannot normally find anywere if you look today. The image of the freshwater hobby killed us - people do not value what you, Margit, value so highly. It drags the hobby down - image, perception, new and good products, new knowledge. Plants are vewed as even less valuable than fish... This is what this thread is all about.

So, thank you for expressing an extreme view about our hobby. I too have and continue to post "controversial" thoughts with the only goal to "make the ice budge" as they say in Russia. We need direction, perspective, and common sense. Opposing views and good discussions should lead us forward. I've heard that French people love to discuss things in depth (and often come across as annoying). We need something French in this hobby, hahah. I think we are doing exactly this in this thread so far.

--Nikolay


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## niko

Here's something else. It has to do with the topic of this thread for sure - "money and the hobby". In the sense that the way we see this hobby is a driver to achieve something better.

http://www.dfwfishbox.com/forums/production/showthread.php?t=20632

If we are to popularize this hobby in such a way that it leads to a new perception we cannot use El Natural looking tanks. That's the sad truth. People react more to the "kitschy" side of the hobby than to true natural beauty. Some of the tanks in that link achieve such intricate natural looking beauty, but mix plants from different parts of the world. I guess that's the ballance I'm talking about - perception vs. inner workings.

--Nikolay


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## Michael

Niko, two points:

In the link you posted, all five of the "winners", and most of the other entries, are in what I call the minature landscape style. This style imitates macro-nature--whole views of grand scenery. This is deeply rooted in the Asian arts of bonsai, penjing, and saikei. From my point of view, when it is good it is very good, but when it is bad it is kitsch.

Only a few entries were in the "nature aquarium" style, which creates a 1:1 scale version of an especially beautiful underwater scene. I believe this is the style you prefer.

Second, to my way of thinking, El Natural (horrible name) is not a style. It is a technique for creating planted tanks that relies on a soil substrate and manipulation of the nitrogen cycle with the simplest technology feasible. I form this opinion from Walstad's book, in which she almost never discusses aesthetics at all. The fact that many Walstad tanks have a similar, non-designed look is due to a self-selection phenomemon. Walstad does not do high-design in her own tanks, people attracted to her method tend to imitate this, and new people seeing the technique for the first time think that this is way that all Walstad tanks must look. If the newcomer likes the look, they try the technique. If the newcomer dislikes the look, she moves on to some other technique in which she sees designs more to her personal tastes.

There is an exact analogy in my own profession. Native plant gardens can be done in any landscape style, but they rarely are. People interested in native plants also tend to like very informal, natural, almost un-designed landscapes. So all native plant gardens tend to look that way, reinforcing the preconception that this is the only way they can look.

If this seems astray from the original topic, let me bring it back. I was attracted to Walstad's method because of the low-tech, low-cost, low-maintenance aspects. But I am trying to use those techniques to create carefully designed aquaria. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting better. So my commitment to the hobby is expressed in my design efforts, rather than my limited budget.


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## JustLikeAPill

When it comes to el-natural style, I don't visit that forum or look at the pics. I just don't like it and that is OK if others do. This may sound mean but if I wanted to look at the life in a ditch, I wouldngo look at a real ditch..


It has always been my impression that el-natural tanks are more of a science experiment type thng.... Something good for a sixth grade biology project but not much else. Sort of like putting some egeria, duckweed and mosquito fish in a tank. You can do that but... You can also do better.


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## Margit

Hi Niko,

before I reply, a compliment on your signature line...:biggrin:

When you mention El natural, I immediately have an image in my mind (similar to yours, I guess... a bit on the drab side). But that's because it has already been "chiseled in stone" as a method and is being guarded by its acolytes. Others use Japanese design principles for their iwagumis, oblivious to the fact that any other parts of the world might have interesting rock formations, too. I am not convinced that the hobby is advanced by propagating methods, but by stirring up an interest in ecology and natural habitats (e.g. Bleher is doing biotopes without going low tech or El natural). Then, you can choose your technology as needed - and not as prescribed. 

Just one observation on Tex-Gal's retort: if you don't want something approaching a biotope, what makes a planted tank different from an 18th century orangerie? #-o

I found Walstad's book interesting, but not particularly inspiring. Instead, when I wanted a low tech set-up, I hit the books of the early aquarists, whose books were first published in the fifties or sixties (Frey, or my second edition Sterba, etc.). So, I use soil (up to 10 inches deep), but I definitely do not have a Walstad tank (I keep polypterus and hope to add cichlids...; yet, in terms of sheer weight, my tank has more plant matter than a densely packed Dutch aquarium and still features loads of driftwood and rocks) 

The point I'm trying to make is that there are no quick fixes, no matter the amount of technology available. If new hobbyists are enticed by the more attractive images from your link, and are made to believe that such results are entirely within their reach, they will be sorely disappointed. No amount of design principles, dosing regimens, pressurised CO2 and high-end lighting - and no recipe-style checklist of soil, gravel capping and a heaped tablespoon of duckweed, either - will prevent a system collapse. 

So, no, I don't think that bringing money into the hobby serves any purpose (other than enabling industry to develop more technology); promoting the idea that one is dealing with living systems and that working with nature is easier than working against her, is, in my (not so humble) opinion, more productive. 

Cheers

Margit


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## Tex Gal

Margit - I'm not sure what you mean about 18th century orangerie unless you are saying that it's like having the aquarium look like a conservatory of sorts. I agree. I'm ok with that. That is how my tanks usually look. I love to try all the different species and learn about the different plants which then gives me the need for the high tech equipment. 

I also agree that you can always have a system collapse. There is nothing natural, as has been said by so many, about keeping a little bit of nature in a glass box in your house. We are not nearly as good at replicating nature as nature is at creating it. Hopefully we are attentive enough to intervene when things get out of balance. This happens even in nature too as when you see ponds turn over with algae blooms and fish gulping at the top, massive fish die off's because of over population of certain types, etc. Nature is not kind about these adjustments - deer starvation because of overpopulation etc. We don't want or like to see this in our homes so we intervene. I use to keep kribensis but don't anymore because they multiply like rabbits and their sheer numbers could overwhelm my tank.

I also agree that working against nature is fraught with frustration. I see this all the time in outdoor landscaping. People use plants that will not work in areas as they mature and then they pull everything out, just when it's getting mature and redo everything all over again - working against the nature of the plants.

What money buys for me is variety. I get to learn, enjoy, experience different flora and fauna that I wouldn't otherwise because of availability. I think it's always been like that though. The people who have money can travel and experience it that way. Those of us that don't have to wait til the prices come down and we can get it where we live. 

Technology just for it's own sake is a loosing endeavor. There is always something more advanced coming out next week. Technology chosen as needed is what makes sense for us all. Lets face it we all don't even have the skills to be able to use technology at the same level anyway.

Also, while technology does cost, it's not even necessarily where the money can go. I guess I would like to see more flora and fauna available. That costs money to import, to keep, to sell. That is what I'd really like to see. I think that's what Niko was talking about in his "fish business". Whatever technology I need to maintain this nature, I'm willing to purchase and learn to use.


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## houseofcards

Really good discussion!

Some observations:

What is a planted tank? What is an aquascape? For me as mentioned the latter is about aesthetics. Now that doesn't mean a planted tank can't be attractive, but it doesn't necessarily have aesthetics at it's core. I don't think big money will be spent around a planted tank especially an "El Natural" one. That is really about simply growing plants in a fish tank.

Pictures of aquascapes by professionals or advanced hobbyists are a mixed bag. Firstly there attractive and people say "I want that" It happened to me one day reading *Nature Aquarium World* at the book store. I think it generates interest and expenditure, but many times it's not sustainable since the disappoint rate is too high. Most people can't maintain the tank like the picture for several reasons. The biggest being "Stems Grow".

Plants vs Fish -One to one plants lose, easily. But if those plants become an aquascape and that aquascape becomes art then the plants have a fighting chance. But as mentioned there is a fine line between a gitchy scape and a work of art. For example a Dutch Scape could be a sight to hold or it can easily look like the vegetables in the supermarket. Same goes for those scapes as mentioned with trees, brooks,etc.

Fish dominate the saltwater hobby and expenditure is built around them. Yes a nice reef tank is a thing of beauty, but it's pretty dead (I know it's live rock) until it's teeming with life. Planted tanks are much more difficult to maintain than saltwater by professionals. You would have to have service people in there twice a week to really keep it looking like a piece of art. Once the live rock is set in place. It doesn't need constant pruning, etc. so it can go at least a week before it changes and doesn't look picture perfect.

I do think in addition to dollars it takes a special commitment to succeed. ADA, Knott and other's have a higher commitment to the hobby thus they will naturally have more success. They spend much more time, etc. then a typical hobbyists would. That's why they all do things in different ways and it still works.

Where does all this leave us, I haven't a clue.


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## Michael

JustLikeAPill said:


> It has always been my impression that el-natural tanks are more of a science experiment type thng.... Something good for a sixth grade biology project but not much else. Sort of like putting some egeria, duckweed and mosquito fish in a tank. You can do that but... You can also do better.


Does this tank look like a science fair project? It was set up and maintained using Walstad's method.


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## JustLikeAPill

Michael, it is an attractive tank but... Still looks like an el-natural tank to me. It is dominated by crypts, green stems and moss. Pretty shady and jungley.


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## Michael

Shady and jungly it is, but a far cry from a "sixth grade biology project" made by "putting egeria, duckweed, and mosquito fish in a tank". At least I persuaded you to look at one.


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## davemonkey

It's been awhile since I checked in on this thread. I just noticed a bit about El Natural and how some might perceive it to be a style rather than a method, etc... I think there is some truth in the fact that many who use natural methods tend to scape in a way that looks..."El Natural". But it really all depends on the scapist. Here are 2 "El Natural" tanks. I'm not saying that these are extremely beautiful scapes worthy of competition or drawing people into the hobby, but they certainly don't look "El Natural" to me. They were simply scaped in a way that I would have scaped the same tanks using high-tech methods. The style would not have been any different using a different method.



















Now, all that being said, the bottom tank is actually gradually being converted to high-tech (CO2 injection, high light, better filtration, etc...).

Sorry if I strayed off topic with this post...just wanted to inject a thought or two.

-Dave


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## niko

Whoa! What beautiful tanks!

This topic is not about aquascaping styles or methods. But serendipitously we have stumbled on something interesting -How a tank can be both beautifully aquascaped AND as natural as it can be in a glass box!

I say, you Dave, start another thread that dispels the misconception that El Natural is a small size tank on the window sill with swords that have grown 2" in 2 years and amber-yellow water that barely moves. Method vs. aquascaping style. What is special about it all. Stuff like that.

Nice!

How long do these two tanks take to get to that state? Did you start with a lot of plants? Algae problems? Light? Filtration?

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

Those are nice tanks, but I think the point is missed.

If you take an ADA/Nature Aquarium tank I think most are going to scape it. The whole image evolves around looks. The majority will fall within the middle of a bell curve. Some extremes scapes will be to the left and some simply 'planted tanks' will be on the right. 

If you took all the 'El Natural' setups. I could be wrong, but I think most will again be in the middle and not be that concerned about looks and not really look like the tanks you just showed. 

I mean ADA is positioned as Art. El Natural is positioned as Ecology.


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## Margit

Hi Dave,

love those tanks, especially the second one.

Niko:

What's wrong with amber coloured water? I went through great pains to collect dried mango and guava leaves, even bought a little Indian almond tree, to recreate a bit of my beloved Cameroon here in Kenya... :biggrin:


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## davemonkey

houseofcards said:


> I mean ADA is positioned as Art. El Natural is positioned as Ecology.


Yes, I see your point here. In that respect, it comes to how the idea or style is presented. ADA has done a fabulous job at presenting the hobby as an art and as a form of "peaceful relaxation" (I beleive I've seen that in one of their translated adds...correct me if I'm mis-quoting).

So that brings us to...how do we promote that same idea here in the states? Maybe it's cultural? If our idea (as a whole nation, not as individuals) of art and peace is 'less input...just sit back and look at something and be entertained', how do we as individuals show someone how 'more input...cultivate an aquatic garden and put some physical energy and $$ into it' can also lead to peace and relaxation and artistic enjoyment?

My wife and I garden (vegetables, etc...) and it's very hard and tedious work. But, it's also very relaxing and rewarding to watch it grow, see the end result of our labor, enjoy the fruits of our labor. To me, an aquascape is the same. The more energy I spend taking care of it, the more rewarding it is to see it flourish. And it becomes my own art creation, which makes it more meaningful to me as the "artist".

(Niko, I'll take your advice on that thread idea.  )


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## niko

Margit said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> love those tanks, especially the second one.
> 
> Niko:
> 
> What's wrong with amber coloured water? I went through great pains to collect dried mango and guava leaves, even bought a little Indian almond tree, to recreate a bit of my beloved Cameroon here in Kenya... :biggrin:


Look at this. Pause at 1:05 and look at the clarity of the water. That is what most people like. And that is what most people see as cheaper than a hamburger:






Show these clarity-loving folk a tank with yellow water and they will not want to talk aquariums any more. Don't tell them it's the biotope of the cardinals and that's how Nature is or something.

It's about perception. Amano's "Natural" Aquarium Art vs. Texas Dave's Natural El Naturals....

--Nikolay


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Michael said:


> Shady and jungly it is, but a far cry from a "sixth grade biology project" made by "putting egeria, duckweed, and mosquito fish in a tank". At least I persuaded you to look at one.


Can you blame me? If you had no picture and told me you had an el-natural tank, I would have expected something.... Unaesthetic. Your tank is the excption to the rule, and most el-natural tanks just look... Blah. Sorry if you took offence.


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## Phil Edwards

I think the cheapness of most freshwater hobbyists stems from the fact that it's a lot easier to breed FW fish and grow plants than it is to propagate SW livestock. FW hobbyists can breed a bajillion fish in a bare-bones tank + sponge filter, and if we can grow plants in something low cost then the production value of the cuttings is low. The perception of low production cost of propagules (animals and plants) is pervsive in the FW side of the hobby and isn't likely to change. Add to that the lower cost of FW livestock compared to SW and it only reinforces the attitude of being able to get away with being cheap. What's a $5.00 plant or fish compared to a $60.00 coral frag or $200.00 fish?

Also, when one thinks about it, most FW hobbyists maintain multiple aquariums; sometimes MANY multiples. I've noticed that this leads to a quantity over quality mentality which is opposite of the [general] SW mentality. I've learned over the years that the SW folks have the right idea about tank setups; spend the money on quality at the start and it'll save money in the long run. This leads to the topic of tank permanence. Reef systems are intended to be long-term, nigh permanent fixtures whereas many FW (especially plant hobbyists) routinely make radical changes to their system every few months. If you're not setting up a permanent system why bother forking out the cash?

As for US vs. non-US hobbyists; I think it's a mixture of a capitalist mentality and American social trends. "Newer and bigger is better, but you'd better get it as cheaply as you can!" We're still very much a consumption society whereas many foreign societies haven't had the resources to "Consume Mass Quantities" for a long time. When space is at a premium one can't often give in to Multiple Tank Syndrome. That leads to Quality of Quantity Syndrome, which is, I believe the root of the issue. If I were lacking in space, but not available funds, I'd have the highest quality system I could set up. That translates into a lot of $$ being put into a single setup.

Long answer to a short question.


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## MiamiAG

Wow, this is a great thread, Tex Gal. Thanks for posting it. I'm going to have to think a little about this and put my two cents in.

I've been in this hobby since the late eighties and have seen it grow to where it is today. When I imported ADA products, very few people wanted to spend the money to purchase them. I see it as more commonplace today so I think the US hobbyist is opening the wallet more. However, I think it's far behind many other countries.

I have some thoughts on why this is but I want to do a little research before posting.


----------



## MiamiAG

Well I've put some thought into this and here are my two cents.

I firmly believe that the US aquarist is willing to put a lot of money into their aquarium. The huge reef market is evidence of this. The question becomes, why hasn't the planted aquarium hobby grown the same way that the reef hobby has?

Another interesting question is why the planted aquarium is more popular in other parts of the world than in the US?

For the first question, it's interesting to think that back pre-1950, it was the freshwater side that was the source of knowledge and technology. Please see Roger Vitko's History of the Hobby http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rv/feature/index.php.

I think that the answer lies in the lack of availability of plants for aquariums. Even today, as I travel around the nation, I see very few LFS that carry plants. The ones that do only carry a very small number, some not aquatic, and in pitiful shape. No one in the LFS can tell you how to grow them let alone properly aquascape an aquarium.

When I travel outside the US, I find that most LFS carry plants. There is great variety, they are healthy and the clerk can give you a good understanding of keeping them alive.

To answer the second question, availability of good, quality plants coupled with a smaller geography allows other countries to develop more serious aquascapers than what we're producing in the US. However, in terms of total number of planted aquarium hobbyists, I think the US is getting close to other countries.

In the end, I think we are in an era of exponential growth in this hobby and in a few years, we will have caught up with other countries. At least I hope that's the case.


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## niko

To me what cripples this hobby is the lack of knowledge. And also the lack of desire to learn. That is a blanket statement but I believe it is valid for most hobbyists. 

The simple basics that Dutch, Germans, and Japanese are using are of little interest for most people in the US. We do not have a single method of setting up and maintaing a planted tank that we can follow without sooner or later facing horrible issues. That situation is aggravated by 2 things: our pronounced individualism and our impatience.

I do not see the pet stores changing this hobby. They are there to make money. They will offer what makes them money. Freshwater fish and plants are available only to support all the other sales. They have to be there. And they are by far the least money making item in the store. Also from what I've seen most (but not all) pet store owners are individuals who have one single goal - to make money for themselves. Interest, sensitivity to beauty, vision are all things that the average LFS owner can't even comprehend.

So, to me, this hobby will drastically improve when we find better ways to manage every stage of the planted tank development. Even if it is done with little understanding of the process if it works it will thrust us to a new level. And we will see more products, more choices, more variations. And the individualism that is an obstacle now will become an advantage.

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

Why can't we accept that there are cultural differences that run deep? Soccer is the number one sport in most countries in the US it probably runs 5th behind hockey. In most countries soccer is called "The Beautiful Game' here it's called "The Boring Game" I've often used this analogy to this debate. Saltwater is exciting, you have some big players (big fish), but Planted is 'boring" since their aren't usually these big players, but the beauty of the entire scape. For some reason, this is the way soccer is viewed here as well. It's boring because there's no big score like a homerun, touchdown and it's not appreciated for the beauty of the play (scape) itself.


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## Ernie Mccracken

Art,
If you owned an LFS, how would you set it up?

Around here, there are literally thousands of active reef hobbyists, most of whom have $5k-$10K+ tied up in their systems and a burning desire to collect one of everything. Any reef store worth their salt has well heeled guys waiting as new stock arrives (even these days), looking to cherry pick the best stuff. $500+ corals and fish are not uncommon with $75-$100 pricetags on mid-level stock.

Compare that to maybe 50-100 aquascapers in the same area, most with considerably smaller amounts invested. You might sell a few $10 plants, but within a few months the local supply is saturated as it passes through the usual sources. Are you really going to steer your customers into buying plants?

I don't intend to be doom and gloom, but I think there are some lessons to be learned. As Americans:

*1) We love to collect.* Rare, expensive, and colorful are big draws. We'll never see a huge range of species, but you're right, having some perpetually half dead crypts and swords in the back corner of every store isn't doing the hobby any favors. Healthy plants are a start, but also new varieties and species.

*2) We love nice looking equipment and high tech gizmos.* Nearly every piece of commonly available equipment for planted aquariums is outdated and/or very low grade junk (ADA the obvious exception, but still major price and availability issues). I know most current FW hobbyists are frugal, to say the least, but if you want to attract commited people, there has to be something better than 20 year old army green canister filters, finicky repurposed CO2 regulators, and warehouse strip lights.

What's interesting to me is the sheer number of reefkeepers who aren't into aesthetics at all. Scientists, engineers, and every type of craftsperson. The kind of folks who would never name their scape "autumn's silent whisper" while listening to Enya. They spend months and months building unbelievable life sustaining systems which take up entire rooms, and only 30 minutes throwing a pile of rock and coral in once they finish.

*3) We want something that makes logical sense to us. <-- Biggest area for improvement*

Reefing is straightforward in a sense. You brute force remove the bad things (pests, nitrates, anaerobic areas, phosphates, algae) and supplement the good things (light, flow, calcium, alkalinity..). When something goes wrong, there is often a straightforward path of resolution. It also helps that success is determined almost solely by the size and relative health of your collection.

With plants, we have this concept of balance, and to be fair, few of us have a clue as to what we're really doing. We follow our own religions because somewhere along the way we stumbled into a combination of methods that works for us. At least until it doesn't. Then we start a thread and 13 people throw out 13 different theories as to why we have pinholes.

Telling a newbie that plants need carbon/N/P/K/Micros (but just enough, not too much or everything dies + algae) and giving them 37 different ways to provide it (or not) is confusing. We have the EI/PPS wars. This amano guy sells lots of different substrate additives, but no science exists to if and why it works. Tough sell.

To top it off, the notion of what makes a great display great is still cloudy. Mostly, it's on a scale of how much it looks like something Amano has done, but I don't know if that's the right criteria. At the same time, we are forbidden from offering constructive criticism. Even when someone puts blue gravel and a bubbling treasure chest in their ADA 120P, we all have to pretend it looks great for fear of hurting someone's feelings. Ultimately, I think it slows the proliferation of aquascaping as an art form.


----------



## niko

I solemnly declare that "Ernie Mccracken" is not another screen name of mine.

But this last post makes me wonder.

Just to clarify something - why there isn't much information available about Amano's miracle-super-duper gadgets and products. Today I talked to Michael (his screenname here on APC). He told me that in Japan there is the tradition of the master/student relationship. And a lot of the information shared between them is oral. It's never written. And the answers are not given to the student on a plate. Hmm?

Look at all ADA published word. It's so annoyingly vague, lofty, and evasive. We want it all on a plate. A big plate! And fast!









I got an ADA catalog here on my table. The 'Filter System" section starts with the following:

_"Fresh water ceaselessly circulates the surface of the earth.
Remains of the fish, and withered leaves are biodegraded by microorganisms,
and harmful substances in the water turned into harmless one.
...
...
People are fighting even in their mind. Microorganisms are fighting inside the filter."_

What the heck? 









So we ditch that "bs" in a hurry and run to find "authorities" that tell us clearly (written word on the Internet) how many spoons of dry chemicals to dump in our tanks, how to perpetually maintain certain excess concentrations of X,Y, and Z, and how much ppm of everything we got to have exactly at all times.

Which, with all the accompanying troubles and frustrations, keeps the interest in the hobby going. We have even grown in numbers in the last 10 years. But if we are anywhere in this hobby it is somewhere around the Middle Ages. To us the Earth is still flat. And we are the center of it all.









I like to think there will be a Renaissance. Which happens to be associated with increased knowledge...

Until then - Would you rate my tank? And someone help me with fertZ advice. Do I need more P? Where can I find it cheap?









--Nicolaus Copernicus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus


----------



## houseofcards

niko said:


> I solemnly declare that "Ernie Mccracken" is not another screen name of mine.


You mean like Jeffyfunk, LOL.

Niko question for you. If I went into a fairly typical Japanese home that had a planted tank would most be run like an ADA tank?


----------



## niko

House,

I have no idea. But from what I've seen on Japanese sites there are more companies that cater to the planted tank enthusiast. ADA is only one of them.

For those that don't know me - I am an internet aquarist. Play with words is my hobby. Hopefully figure a thing or two. Theoretically.

I don't even own any aquariums. Never have.

They cost too much money...

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

I would think overall the typical aquarium will have a more artistic feel then here, mainly due to influence of not only the suppliers you mentioned, but also in culture. The Japanese have long made art out of plants, rock. How influential are zen gardens, bonsai and other rock garden formations and the enrichment these things bring to one's life on the japanese aquarium scene? What do we have in the US to compare?


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## MiamiAG

Folks,

I'll give a more thorough response when I get home but answer me this: why did the reef hobby take off in the US? Is it really due to the big, pretty fish? 

If you told a complete newbie, you too can keep these beautiful fish and reef it only takes a $10,000 investment. Would you have thought that many many people would say yes?


Regards,

Art


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## Ernie Mccracken

houseofcards said:


> What do we have in the US to compare?


A bit of a sidetrack, but America's art form and culture is the custom car. Nowhere else in the world will you find anything close to the level of enthusiasm you find here. There are thousands of amazing projects in progress in every major city (many of which fall into the >$50k, multiple year range). How many fathers pass down a lifelong interest to their sons? Generally speaking, the rest of the world looks at a car the same way they would a dishwasher.


----------



## niko

And how are we going to get to the agreeable price of $10K for a planted tank setup if we can't even start and maintain such tank clean every single time?

I've countless of examples of LFS owners that have setup a planted tank themselves, have had a free setup made for them by our club, and on 2 occasions even imported ADG for a day here to deliver and setup everyting ADA at their store. All of these setups fail miserably in about 1-2 months. Because noone really knows how to maintain that exotic beauty. And moreover - noone is willing to pay for the specialized maintenance.

A little more about the pesky Japanese: Michael told me that they have a very pronounced characteristic - noticing and appreciating very fine details and differences in whatever they deal with. To me that explained why I've seen Japanese websites full of similar looking wild tetras that we haven't even heard about. A lot of these fish differ from each other very little. That's another peculiarity of the Japanese which if we talk about planted tanks puts them way, way ahead. Because a planted tank needs to be "taken in". I've had enough people look casually at my tanks and only after 10-20 min. actually say "Wow! This is beautiful!". 

In contrast the "ice cream truck of the aquarium hobby" - a marine tank - grabs you right away with crazy shapes, colors, movements. It will indeed appeal to people that react more easily to such visuals. Dallas is saltwater country... And without the internet our hobby would be in a pretty patethic state because we are a rare kind of aquarium nuts.

--Nikolay


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## niko

Ah here!

While someone was mentioning $10K and while I was wasting my time trying to sound and feel smart here's what has been happening in another thread:

Look at the 2-nd post:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-e-book-subscription-aquajournal-english.html

...









--Nikolay


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## PlantNerd

MiamiAG said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'll give a more thorough response when I get home but answer me this: why did the reef hobby take off in the US? Is it really due to the big, pretty fish?
> 
> If you told a complete newbie, you too can keep these beautiful fish and reef it only takes a $10,000 investment. Would you have thought that many many people would say yes?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Art


The reef hobby honestly took off so hard and fast because of pretty fish! big or small doesn't matter people love pretty colors. Freshwater has pretty fish just not as many to the newbies. Also "back in the day" before they figured out how to do saltwater without killing everything freshwater was stupidly easy. There wasn't any crazy chemicals floating in your water system, etc. Plants/fish/etc were all cheaper. Planted tanks never really took off here cause......................

you have to take care of them!

who wants to do that? they (customers in general) want the quick fix they want things yesterday. They aren't going to wait for stuff to grow or spend 20 mins on the tank cleaning it up or dosing. I've had the "luxury" of working at a few pets shops and I've dealt with just about every consumer you can imagine from the "rich don't care how much it costs I want it" to the "what is a cycle?" to the "you can't clean your tank with bleach?" to "the hobbyists that rattle off latin names of plants and fish". The real problem is time..people have little of it according to them and choose not to deal with a tank. They'd rather get it set up and with fish in it and it looks "nice". One of my college professors said it best...American runs on money...time is money


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## niko

Hm I think I've seen insanity in the saltwater section of an LFS too.

Mother with 3 kids walks in. They all start to pick fish based on color. "Give me that green one, and that yellow one, and how big does this here get? Give it to me too. Kids do you want any more fish? Yes - that long one there too... Is this one gonna die on me?"...

This went on with the supportive ugly lies of the sales mug smiling and saying "Yes ma'm, right away, no ma'm this fish is very hardy!" and so on. 

When the register rung he exlaimed "Your total is $211.75 ma'm!". Mom said nothing but "Guys are you hungry now? Get the fish and let's go to Burger King!"

It all happened within 5 minutes. Tank she had was 35 gallons and had 8 fish already.

In our hobby, at this moment, you cannot sell a large size Tylomelania Yellow Rabbit Snail for more than $5. And I'm not sure there are $5 hamburgers any more...

--Nikolay


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## Ernie Mccracken

niko said:


> While someone was mentioning $10K and while I was wasting my time trying to sound and feel smart here's what has been happening in another thread:


Can you help me with my DIY bubble counter? I have the syringe, paper clip, and bubble gum. I just can't get it to work right with my soda bottle cap.


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## niko

Ernie Mccracken said:


> Can you help me with my DIY bubble counter? I have the syringe, paper clip, and bubble gum. I just can't get it to work right with my soda bottle cap.


Strangest thing is that same guy that is asking if ADA's e-book is worth $3/month owns everything ADA:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/nano-aquariums/74980-my-new-mini-m-mini-l.html

After noticing that I'm still sitting here, my head buzzing, and a smell of burning electric wires oozing out of my ears...

--Nikolay


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## PlantNerd

niko said:


> Hm I think I've seen insanity in the saltwater section of an LFS too.
> 
> Mother with 3 kids walks in. They all start to pick fish based on color. "Give me that green one, and that yellow one, and how big does this here get? Give it to me too. Kids do you want any more fish? Yes - that long one there too... Is this one gonna die on me?"...
> 
> This went on with the supportive ugly lies of the sales mug smiling and saying "Yes ma'm, right away, no ma'm this fish is very hardy!" and so on.
> 
> When the register rung he exlaimed "Your total is $211.75 ma'm!". Mom said nothing but "Guys are you hungry now? Get the fish and let's go to Burger King!"
> 
> It all happened within 5 minutes. Tank she had was 35 gallons and had 8 fish already.
> 
> In our hobby, at this moment, you cannot sell a large size Tylomelania Yellow Rabbit Snail for more than $5. And I'm not sure there are $5 hamburgers any more...
> 
> --Nikolay


correct and any good sales man would do the same..at the end of the day..a LFS is open for you to purchase fish and supplies they aren't there to tutor you on fish and teach you everything you know. They're simply the middleman..they get stuff in..you want the stuff...you purchase it..the middleman makes his money.


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## houseofcards

Ernie Mccracken said:


> A bit of a sidetrack, but America's art form and culture is the custom car. Nowhere else in the world will you find anything close to the level of enthusiasm you find here. There are thousands of amazing projects in progress in every major city (many of which fall into the >$50k, multiple year range). How many fathers pass down a lifelong interest to their sons? Generally speaking, the rest of the world looks at a car the same way they would a dishwasher.


I do agree and of course in those cars are big engines, big wheels. In the same way we like the big touchdown pass or the big homerun. Not the little things that happen to create a soccer goal. I do believe this is mired in culture. The Japanese have more culture developing beauty around plants we like to develop it around big fish.


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## niko

PlantNerd said:


> correct and any good sales man would do the same..at the end of the day..a LFS is open for you to purchase fish and supplies they aren't there to tutor you on fish and teach you everything you know. They're simply the middleman..they get stuff in..you want the stuff...you purchase it..the middleman makes his money.


Man, you are not helping MiamiAG to make his point that LFS can initiate progress of the planted tank hobby by offering more plants and whatnot for us. Bubba fish-store-owner-extraordianaire wants to make a buck and that's it. That hardly surprises me any more. But Bubbawill take a note if there is a spike in interest because he likes his bread with a thick layer of butter.

So how does interest in this hobby spike in such a way that actually moves progress in a truly positive trend? I say with more knowledge and confidence that we can setup and run clean tanks every time.

--Nikolay


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## MiamiAG

Great discussion here!

My point is more based on the lack of good plants is causing the slow growth of the hobby. That is more the result of lack of proper supply (growers) rather than distribution (LFS).

I understand the LFS is a business and needs to make money but I don't believe they are in it only for the money. If that's the case, there are plenty of other businesses that would give much better returns than the LFS. I think these are people that love the aquarium hobby but must be business-minded. It then becomes an issue of educating them how they can increase another profitable product stream by carrying plants.

Claus Christensen used to have a great presentation/study that he would give to LFS about how adding plants to their products would increase their sales and profit margins. This is the education that suppliers must do to the distribution channel so that they carry their products.

If I had a LFS, I think I was asked, I would do a multi-product offering- salt and freshwater. I would use both and online and local retail business. I would differentiate myself by educating the consumer how to maintain an aquarium be it salt or fresh depending on what they wanted. I would have plants displayed prominently and would likely have a beautiful reef setup right next to a beautiful planted aquascape visible as the first thing you saw when you walked in. Well, that's me and it takes me winning the lottery...


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## niko

A good plant display, good looking plants, and good selection may work very well. I have a single example and it does go along these lines, but I can't say if that will change anything really.

Some years ago I frequented a fish store and got the onwer to think more about plants. Maybe the fact that his tank system actually provided a special area for displaying plants helped. He never used these tanks and finally he decided to give plants a try.

Bottom line was - when the display was 100% full of plants 50% of them sold within 3-4 days. The rest 50% took about 45 days to sell. 

After about a week most plants looked really, really bad. I guess that's one reason why they could not sell well. But also he told me that he has noticed that people buy more if he has more stock. It didn't matter if it was great quaility. People he said like abundance. But he also said that people buy plants with the mentality that within a week they will die in their tank. Disposable beauty, that's all.

One problem with all the local stores is that the tanks where they have the plants have bad lighting. No store ever goes full out in providing a great environment + bright strong light. It is cheaper to just order new cheap plants. That's all it boils down to: About $400 for lights + a CO2 system.


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## Michael

Art, your comments are right on target. In fact I've been trying to convince a new LFS in my neighborhood to do exactly what you suggest, without success so far.


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## niko

Yeah, well, Bubba fish-store-owner luvz to get free stuff!

Only way I see to get a store to display plants is to "have a meeting at my store and setup a planted tank to get your hobby more popular". As we have done in the past. "Smart" fish-store-master extraordinaire will walk around thinking he's getting a hell of a deal - for !free! and all these potential customers are flooding his super-duper store. 

Except that the wonderful freeloader feeling ends when a realization happens. That a planted tank is not an animal anyone from the store panel of monumental experts understands. That, and the fact that most of the "potential customers I tricked into coming in" seem to be hell bent on not spending a dime at the super-duper store. And it is not the store's fault that it's full of obsolete brand new crap....

At this moment a dichotomy takes shape. 2 parts going in different directions that is. So different that insted of the letter "Y" the situation looks more like a "T".

I always come to the same point - to develop the planted tank hobby better we need more understanding how things work.

--Nikolay


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## HeyPK

The route becoming a store that has planted tanks should start with the owner carrying a few easy-to-grow species---the old favorites that go back to the 50's such as Amazon swords, Vallisneria, water sprite, etc. Along with these plants the owner should carry some fertilizers because even these old favorites may need some iron, etc. Once the owner has had some success selling these plants, he or she will get interested in more species, and this will happen when customers who have had success with the easy varieties start asking for more and different species.

Start with _Echinodorus bleherae_; it is almost impossible to kill.


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## niko

If you are intersted in this thread you will be interested in this one too:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/.../79565-trends-our-hobby-according-google.html

That is my version of targeted advertisement. Except I like to think that I do not push *iDiotic™* products suggestions on you.

--Nikolay


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## Silvering

niko said:


> A good plant display, good looking plants, and good selection may work very well. I have a single example and it does go along these lines, but I can't say if that will change anything really.


^ This. It's a marketing problem; fish market themselves (pretty colors, movement). All the store has to do is have halfway decent stock and keep the tanks clean. (Some places I've seen can't even do that!) Plants need to be "packaged" attractively in order to sell. There's an LFS in my area that started out as an aquarium maintenance service - they have beautiful tanks with plants and fish, and the tanks with plants have LOTS of plant mass. They also label certain fish, at least, "NFS" - they keep "worker fish" in their stock tanks to maintain quality; I didn't ask but they may well do the same for certain plants. And they have a beautiful planted tank framed right in the entryway wall when you walk in. They've got the experience to keep things looking nice rather than just serving as another distribution point. And it's a great selling strategy, I bought an expensive fish when usually I wouldn't have bought a fish at that price from ANY other place around here, because their tanks don't look as good. Good looking tanks make the customer think that the stock is healthy and worth paying more money for. I wasn't shopping for plants that day, but if I want something nice I'll definitely be going back there for it.


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## ObiQuiet

niko said:


> A good plant display, good looking plants, and good selection may work very well.


One more thing that would help. Packaging.

Imaging that aquatic plants were sold like other aquarium decorations: Just plop it in the tank. Move it if its in the way.

How?

Sell the plants in cheap glass or acrylic vases, like this:








Advantages:
* More attractive than the plastic pots
* Ferts built in soil, gravel cap included.
* No substrate requirements for the tank.
* Easy to reposition, remove.
* Ideal: As easy as buying a plastic plant.
* Price point: The pots retail for under $3.00, so the range of $5-7 should be possible.

Make sure:
* Plants come with the same Easy, Medium, Hard labels as fish do. With a bright, medium, or dim bulb symbol.
* Include the APC URL on the label
* Include a "Learn More" address too, that explains in pictures how plants fit the ecosystem and shows off fully planted tanks
* On that site, include (e.g.) that great plant nutrient deficiency infographic.


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## MiamiAG

I really don't see this as anything different than what any new product deals with.

First, make sure you have a good product. Today, there are several easy to follow ways to healthy plant growth. I will say, even follow this method to success.

Second, make sure the product is easily and widely available. This is what missing. I got plants today from a large retailer. Terrible on many levels. If I was a newbie, the plants would be dead in a few days.

Third, educate the distributors so they can, inspire of themselves, make a profit and believe in your product. This is the duty of the suppliers. Sadly, even though the US is one of the largest growers of aquarium plants, the growers have never educated the suppliers.

Lastly, educate the public. I think we need an evangelist, an American Amano. We need more publicity and exposure.


Regards,

Art


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## MiamiAG

To add, it is for this reason that I wanted to highlight LFSs that made an effort to carry plants when I managed APC. If we can get them more business they will learn to believe in the hobby. Once they do, other stores will. Once some aquascapes get into Modern Homes and Gardens, then new hobbysts will be born and we will be on our way.

If you know of a LFS doing the plant thing, let us know and let's promote the heck out of them!


Regards,

Art


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## houseofcards

From Martha Stewart, ugh:

http://www.marthastewart.com/264914/setting-up-a-natural-aquarium


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## niko

This article is a huge disservice to our hobby. 

Because of the name associated with it and the information that guarantees failure.


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## houseofcards

Of course your right. It's cheap, inaccurate and not very appealing and it's mainstream.


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## Michael

Typical Martha--low content, over-simplified, and unlikely to produce success without MUCH more research and effort.

However, even a whisper of interest from Saint Martha can boost a hobby or activity to surprising levels. One of my other interests is poultry, and Martha's glowing accounts of her chickens helped to start the current surge in backyard chicken keeping.


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## HeyPK

It is also unchanged from the advice that was available back in the '50's: Use well-washed aquarium gravel and the fish will provide all fertilizer needs. This is a lazy effort. All we have to do is put the name, Martha Stewart, on it and people will believe it.


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## niko

Michael said:


> Typical Martha--low content, over-simplified, and unlikely to produce success without MUCH more research and effort.
> 
> However, even a whisper of interest from Saint Martha can boost a hobby or activity to surprising levels. ...


Hey! Should I get a tiny bit negative here? This is pretty sad actually:

These 2 have someting in common:


















Both are criminals. Both are American icons. One started as a criminal and turned into an icon. The other first became an icon and then a criminal.

I hope you follow my veiled logic - no matter how it looks there is black and white *IF one cares* to see it. I don't think anyone sees Martha as a criminal. Or Billy. Or quite a few professional athletes. But there is black and white nonetheless.

How does that pertain to our hobby? 
Do YOU care to think? To choose beter products? To voice? To drive forward?

This "Money" topic is a complicated subject...

- Cheers! - said Martha.

--Nikolay


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## MiamiAG

This is the type of bad information and stereotype we need to change. What it does take, like Niko said, is effort. That effort normally comes from the commercial efforts. Unfortunately, I rarely find a company willing to invest in this.

But, before any marketing to newbies can be made, the product must give good results and be reproducible easily. Do you think we have finally arrived at a cookie cutter formula for good success with plants? Think of it this way. If you had to tell your mother what to do so she could end up with a nice planted aquarium, can you do it in a simple, short way that she will understand and, actually, be excited about?


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## MiamiAG

One other thing. A very well respect individual in the hobby feels that a well aquascaped planted aquarium is not possible for the masses in the US. Instead, beautiful hardscapes with few plants is the way to go. Thoughts?


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## ObiQuiet

MiamiAG said:


> I think we need an evangelist, an American Amano.


Interesting idea -- What do we think the characteristics of a good candidate would be? Let's encourage someone!


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## Tex Gal

I think it would be possible to put together a low light low maintenance tank "kit" together. If more LFS would know how to do this an market it for their stores fewer people would get discouraged. I just set up two low tech tanks, one for my daughter and one for my granddaughter. All they have to do is a water change every now and then and stick a few root tabs in the gravel. How much easier than that does it get?


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## TAB

I think its going to take some one that not only has great sense of Aesthetics as well as a techincal background.

As was mentioned in this thread, most of the reefers are some type of geek/nerd. We are into gadgets and high tech stuff.

Kits don't intrest all but the most basic of aquarists. I've yet to find one that suited my needs unless it was for something like a Q tank. even then I ended up adding/subtracting a bunch of stuff too it.


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## Tex Gal

I agree that the kits aren't the answer for everyone. I do think for beginners who don't know a lot they are a good starting point. We do have guidelines such as El Natural and EI dosing that are general, but they don't really give scaping advice. I kind of think that is where you either have to have an eye or copy someone or use the "kit" method.


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## TAB

I would think a booklet of some kind would be better. you know something like 20 pages or so, that could be given out/ low cost. would do much more then would offering kits.


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## Tex Gal

TAB said:


> I would think a booklet of some kind would be better. you know something like 20 pages or so, that could be given out/ low cost. would do much more then would offering kits.


Yes, but it reminds me of an appliance I had once. It has a sticker on the top that read, "Really now? Have you read the instructions?!"


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## TAB

Tex Gal said:


> Yes, but it reminds me of an appliance I had once. It has a sticker on the top that read, "Really now? Have you read the instructions?!"


In college I was working at "toy'r'us" over the winter break. All I did was put things toegther. Anyways there was this one play house that came with these plastic rivits, that once they went in, they didn't come back out. got tons of them back. Anyways, on the 1st page of the instructions it said:

"now that you have tried and failed to asymbel your XXXXXXX play house, Thank you for reading the instructions"



Its like the old saying, "whats the diffrence between a wise man and a idiot? the wise man reads the insturctions"


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## niko

I have the feeling that there are "kits" in the stores already. I actually bought a tank for the daughter of a freind of mine 4 years ago. Tank is with a Barbie-pink lid and base. At least I got normal looking gravel. Tank has an HOB filter and they buy Carbon cartridges for it. It houses ONE goldfish. Normally the water is somewhat murky, at times you can't see the fish. My friend always tells me that chaning the water is not someting they do often.

In contrast - I got a 10 gallon standard tank for another friend. Small HOB filter, gravel and snow white rocks. Also - a $1 plastic pitcher. Told him that every day before feeding the fish he needs to scoop 1 pitcher of water from the tank and replace it with tap water treated with 1 drop of "this here bottle". Takes you 30 seconds. "Scoop water--dump in sink---refill+add 1 drop--dump in tank". Guy seems to find it easy - 2 years later I still marvel how the stones are as snow white as the first day! Tank houses TWO goldfish!

My point is - if the 30 second maintenance is done on a regular basis the tank will be clean. You can't sell that. To me LFS should make that clear to every customer - that it is easy + there is no other way. But hey, people can't even keep house plants alive because they forget to water them and noone needs to be told plants need water...

Few years ago Tetra, I believe, had a TV add featuring cute looking fish. The only words that showed on the screen were "Fish are easy" or something to that extent. Don't know if that made any difference, but we all understand the goal of that ad.


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## houseofcards

I think one thing to consider is the 'art' side vs the 'hobby' side. I mean ADA is clearly marketed as art. But can art be mainstream? I don't mean viewing it, I mean creating it. Someone mentioned custom cars are an art form in the US, like no other place, but most don't go about customizing there cars to an art form. Some make some modifications and probably most do nothing from factory. Not sure if the 'art' form of the hobby is possible to the masses.


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## geeks_15

Interesting discussion.

In Cincinnati there is a pretty large Aquarium club (hundreds of members) and the vast majority are FW aquarists. Some spend plenty of money on their hobby. But there is very little interest in planted tanks. I'm not sure why, but I have thought of some drawbacks of planted tanks. Keep in mind, I've been in the hobby for about 10 years and I started with a planted tank and I've never had a non-planted tank.

1. The biggest problem in my opinion is that there is a lack of good info on planted tanks. There is no good guide book to setting up a successful planted aquarium. I mean a book that is a detailed step by step. Walsted's book is good, but it is not specific enough and it has a lot of science that the average aquarium keeper isn't interested in (I was interested, but most wouldn't be). It took me tons of research and trial and error to get my planted tank to look the way I wanted it too. There is tons of conflicting information also. The LFS owners and employees usually don't know the basics of a planted tank. BTW, I don't mean a book that describes THE way to have a successful planted tank, but ONE way. I spent more money as I figured things out and my goal seemed achievable. Why would I spend a bunch on a setup with no guide and a pretty good chance I'll end up with a failure. 

2. Many popular FW fish are not so compatible with plants. Most of the african rift lake cichlids aren't. Most big fish aren't. Discus and dwarf cichlids are great, but they aren't exactly easy to keep. Most Cincy club members keep african rift lake cichlids.

3. Good plants are hard to find. I pretty much have to order online to get any decent plant. Other aquatic gardeners are good to find, but hard to find. LFS in this area have sad looking specimens of common plants.

One other point that has been touched on: Getting started in planted aquaria is cheap, SW is not. I know of many people who have won a gold fish at a fair and then get their first aquarium. For $3 more you can add a sword plant and you are in. Those people may not have the funds to start a SW tank. The sword lives but struggles, so the owner tries to do cheap things to help the plant (maybe some fertilizer, maybe they add another light strip or get a better light strip) because they like the plant, but only have $3 invested so far. You can see where this is going.


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## krisw

I've managed to read through this entire thread, and have a few thoughts to add. I've been in the hobby since 2003, have been president of our local plant club, and have tried to answer tons of questions from hobbyists along the way. Yet, one thing I've learned along the way is regardless of money spent, time/effort are far more important. In addition to the money spent in other parts of the world on the best equipment/materials, I believe they also invest a tremendous amount of time grooming their planted aquariums.

I'm the perfect example of someone who's spent a lot of money on CO2 systems, quality filters, auto-dosers, great lights, but life gets in the way, and if I don't do water changes for a month, the results aren't great. In comparison to salt-water, it seems that the equipment is more readily available to solve that kind of problem. Automate everything so that you can just enjoy the tank.

I'm not confident that even if I wanted to spend the money, that I would know exactly what pieces of equipment to buy to achieve that. Maybe plumb the tank into my house water supply, but is there a aquatic plant trimming Roomba I can buy to keep the plants looking perfect?

So, back to my point, it's effort in, results out. It's a hobby after all, but it can be a hard sell to tell someone working full-time with 2 kids that they need to carve out a little bit of time every day, and an hour or two on the weekends to keep their 75G in good shape.

Now, with some specific things, it's better to spend the money. Over the course of a few years, it's more expensive (and more work) to maintain a yeast CO2 system, than to drop a couple hundred bucks on a pressure system that's more stable, and will provide better results. Yet, given this simple advice, it's amazing how many folks don't want to add CO2 to their systems. I don't know if it's information overload, or simply fear of failing.

The same is true with new and exotic plants. In our club auctions, we often get the question "will it grow in my tank." I try to answer best I can, but usually I try to encourage the person to just try it. Of course, there are plants that won't grow and I steer them away from those, but even given a $2 bag of beautifully healthy plants in a club auction, folks are hesitant to give it a try. That's not a cost problem...

I believe that LFS's have to be part of the solution, but in seeing several good stores go out of business over the past few years, I can't fault any owner from being cautious about what they invest in. For saltwater, don't underestimate the effect of The Little Mermaid and Nemo in driving demand. Nor to the impact that public aquariums have on the hobby. How many stunning planted aquariums have you seen in public aquariums? If anyone has the time and resources to do a planted aquarium, shouldn't they? Nope, another shark tank.

Finally, just to comment on El Natural. When I think of El Natural, I think soil substrate with little to no dosing. That doesn't preclude CO2 or high light, however. In GWAPA, we have many folks using Sean Murphy's soil recipe in "high tech" setups. A great example is Dave William's tank that placed 6th overall in the AAC2009 contest:

http://aac.acuavida.com/gallery/AAC...s/David+Williams/180g_202009_20final.jpg.html

Of course, he spent the time/money to plumb the tank into his house water supply, used CO2, bought nice rocks/wood, etc.


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## Nowherman6

Disney-Pixar needs to make a movie about a little Rummynose Tetra named Roger who gets separated from his family in the Orinoco River basin and winds up in a beautiful planted tank in Piscataway, NJ. Call it "Looking for Roger"

The hobby will explode.


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## niko

If we think that any kind of deeper understanding of how to run a planted tank will help this hobby please read this topic.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...o-proven-method-starting-running-planted.html

It is really not about how to apply subZero. The topic is about critical thinking and trying to learn more. And you can see how easily it gets overwhelming for most people.

I like the Roger-the-Rummynose idea, haha! It does not have to do with precise anything. And we all know it will work!

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

Nowherman6 said:


> Disney-Pixar needs to make a movie about a little Rummynose Tetra named Roger who gets separated from his family in the Orinoco River basin and winds up in a beautiful planted tank in Piscataway, NJ. Call it "Looking for Roger"
> 
> The hobby will explode.


Well let's not forget that freshwater aquariums greatly outweigh saltwater ones. The real issue is real planted tanks. I think you would need Bob the Bolbitis starring with Manny the Moss and your friend Roger playing a smaller role. Then again all Nemo did was compel little Johnny to ask mom to take him to Petco and send alot of little Clown fish to an early grave.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## geeks_15

> If we think that any kind of deeper understanding of how to run a planted tank will help this hobby please read this topic.


I think some people on this forum want a deeper understanding, but most aquarium keepers don't. They want an easy to follow formula. I think some of those formula people would want to learn more once they got hooked on planted aquaria, but they never get interested because they never get started.

If the subzero plan works and you packaged it with easy instructions (day 1 pour this bag into the aquarium, day 2 pour this bag into the aquarium, WC, etc). I bet you could sell some of those (make sure it is cheap). Put the components of each bag in small print so interested people can look, but keep it very simple for everyone else.


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## Nowherman6

houseofcards said:


> Well let's not forget that freshwater aquariums greatly outweigh saltwater ones. The real issue is real planted tanks. I think you would need Bob the Bolbitis starring with Manny the Moss and your friend Roger playing a smaller role. Then again all Nemo did was compel little Johnny to ask mom to take him to Petco and send alot of little Clown fish to an early grave.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah, excellent point. Bob the Bolbitis will wonder what he's doing in the same tank as Caesar the Cryptocoryne from Sri Lanka and Adeline the Amazon Sword from Brazil. Despite their differences they fight off a ravenous pack of hydra and eventually learn a valuable lesson about how being from different cultures doesn't matter - together they make up a beautiful planted tank. The movie ends with a Randy Newman song about rhizome propagation.

But seriously, getting back to the bit about planted v saltwater in the US: I think freshwater planted tanks have a lot going against them compared to saltwater. Planted tanks are a lot more work, not just physically but mentally. The scapes we create don't really exist in natural bodies of water. Stick your head in your average lake and you'll see mostly mud and detritus. If you see plants they're either growing in big wide homogenous swaths, or are leggy and covered in crud. Hell, stick your head in the Amazon and it doesn't exactly look like an Amano aquascape - just silty brown water, dead branches and leaves. Compare that to a saltwater tank where to a large degree you can take a picture of a natural piece of reef and try to recreate it. So there's a lot more imagination involved - deciding where the hardscape goes, what plants to use and how to keep them alive. And then on top of all that, not only do they need to be kept alive, they need to be grown and shaped and placed specifically into a form that's eye pleasing or evocative somehow.

Even further, what's evocative to us as Americans? We can go on vacation to the Caribbean and swim on coral reefs, see the colorful fish and have happy memories of that. Salt water tanks in some ways allow us to reproduce those memories. Or nevermind memories, they can bring us to places we've never been but maybe _wish_ to be some day. Where is the inspiration for a planted tank? It's nature itself, isn't it? Not just what's under the water but what's above it. It's about using those elements to create something new, to be both in a river and a forest or garden or hillside at the same time. Maybe that's all just too artsy-fartsy for mainstream America.

And that's to say nothing about the technical aspects of a planted tank, though personally I grew tired of all that years ago. I've had nothing but a 4 gallon nano tank for the past several years. I got tired of obsessing about tests and KNO3 and whatnot and just let the little tank be. I removed the light and just let it be natural. Took off the CO2 as well. Only thing I dosed was fish food and potassium from the ADA line. End result is a nice little patch of anubias petite nana on my driftwood and either the cardinal tetras or the green neon tetras bred at some point, because there were 4 fish in there at one point and now there are 7. Go figure.

That's why I really see the benefit in a lot of the ADA stuff and why I guess that's the best venue for breaking into the American mainstream. Because even if you don't want to be philosophical about a planted tank, at the very least they try to make it practical. Use this soil. 3 squirts of this per day for the first 2 months, then change to this. Do water changes every two weeks. Look at these pictures - no big fish, only little fish. Don't put goldfish in the tank, or anything else that defecates a lot and fouls the water. It's all very easy to remember.

So anyway, I wish I had a conclusion but I don't. That's just my 2 cents.


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## MiamiAG

Here's what we need. We need to convince George Farmer to move to the US and go on the Today Show with Matt Lauer! http://fb.me/DAOS0uJH


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## houseofcards

Nowherman6 said:


> Ah, excellent point. Bob the Bolbitis will wonder what he's doing in the same tank as Caesar the Cryptocoryne from Sri Lanka and Adeline the Amazon Sword from Brazil. Despite their differences they fight off a ravenous pack of hydra and eventually learn a valuable lesson about how being from different cultures doesn't matter - together they make up a beautiful planted tank. The movie ends with a Randy Newman song about rhizome propagation.


LOL



Nowherman6 said:


> Even further, what's evocative to us as Americans? We can go on vacation to the Caribbean and swim on coral reefs, see the colorful fish and have happy memories of that. Salt water tanks in some ways allow us to reproduce those memories. Or nevermind memories, they can bring us to places we've never been but maybe _wish_ to be some day. Where is the inspiration for a planted tank? It's nature itself, isn't it? Not just what's under the water but what's above it. It's about using those elements to create something new, to be both in a river and a forest or garden or hillside at the same time. Maybe that's all just too artsy-fartsy for mainstream America.


I've thought that many times myself. Almost makes you feel like your on vacation right in your own home. Something special about that and people will pay big bucks for that feeling.



Nowherman6 said:


> And that's to say nothing about the technical aspects of a planted tank, though personally I grew tired of all that years ago. I've had nothing but a 4 gallon nano tank for the past several years. I got tired of obsessing about tests and KNO3 and whatnot and just let the little tank be. I removed the light and just let it be natural. Took off the CO2 as well. Only thing I dosed was fish food and potassium from the ADA line. End result is a nice little patch of anubias petite nana on my driftwood and either the cardinal tetras or the green neon tetras bred at some point, because there were 4 fish in there at one point and now there are 7. Go figure.


When I first started with planted tanks I used to test everything, Oh My freaking GOD the NO3 is too high!!!!. You know how I've dosed for the last 4 years. I take a 1 gallon water jug and dump in NPK so I'm at the high end of EI. I then spoon in some more NPK since I have several other smaller tanks. I fill the jug with water and start dumping it in the big tank. Then I save about 25% of the water and divide it by my other tanks. More of the remaining water for my other larger tanks and less for any nanos, etc. and that's it. I don't test anything, EVER. Oh, I occasionally use a drop checker to double check. I couldn't care less what the levels are unless I see an issue. The hobby is incredibly easy for me. I can't recall when I've had any issue at startup or long-term. I have wood that still shows an orange hue to it even one year underwater. What I do have is commitment. I will not move away from water changes, light feeding, light stock, etc. [/QUOTE]


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## Michael

Maybe I have been incredibly lucky, but all of my tanks have been easy, and relatively problem-free from the start. My introduction to planted aquaria was Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, and I have continued to use that method, with my own elaborations.

This may be wildly over-confident, but I think I could give a new hobbyist relatively simple, step-by-step directions for setting up a tank that would be as easy as mine have been. And it would not be expensive either. But this method would never be heavily marketed or become highly profitable because it uses common equipment and materials.

Maybe the money saved could be used instead for well-grown, healthy plants; and fish that are raised, shipped, and sold in humane ways. What a pipe dream!


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## houseofcards

You know there was a thread here not to long ago in the ADG forum about setting up a large display tank for an LFS client they had. It was planted alright, but with plastic.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/75697-adg-install-picasso-exotics.html

There was alot of outrage, but, ADG explained it this way:



Francis Xavier said:


> ...The choice for plastic was simple: the client had a need and a request and needed inspirational displays without hefty maintenance. As we all know, it takes a lot of expertise to properly execute a planted aquarium, much less an inspirational planted aquascape. It also takes a lot of maintenance time investment (it takes roughly one to two hours a week to keep a 17.7 gallon 60-P planted aquascape perfect in the gallery, where as it takes about 30 minutes every two weeks to keep a hardscape only discus display that's 300 gallons pristinely perfect)...


I happen to agree. If we are truly talking about a tank that looks like one of the contest entry snapshots that would take a lot of maintenance to keep it that way long-term. Kinda la Da Vinci going to the Art Gallery and giving the Mona Lisa a haircut to keep it looking the exact same way. So when someone sees a pic of a contest winning planted tank and says "I want that in my home" it's different than someone seeing Trigger fish and Tangs amongst live rock and saying "I want that in my home."


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## krisw

> We can go on vacation to the Caribbean and swim on coral reefs, see the colorful fish and have happy memories of that. Salt water tanks in some ways allow us to reproduce those memories. Or nevermind memories, they can bring us to places we've never been but maybe wish to be some day. Where is the inspiration for a planted tank?


The answer is Ichetucknee Springs State Park in Florida:

http://www.floridastateparks.org/ichetuckneesprings/

A few GWAPA members went snorkeling there several years ago, and it was literally like swimming in a planted aquarium, with huge fields of Val underneath you, lots of minnows and sunfish swimming around, crayfish, turtles, etc. I highly recommend it. Here's a short writeup with photos from my visit:

http://www.guitarfish.org/2007/06/13/florida-trip-ichetucknee-river

Here's a post I found that shows more of its beauty:

http://tilthelasthemlockdies.blogspot.com/2011/05/down-amazing-ichetucknee-river.html


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## Silvering

Hey, if people start out with plastic, someday they might decide to go for the real thing. My 20g community tank had plastic plants, but when I upgraded to the 55, I thought to myself, "Maybe it's time to try the real thing..." So if an LFS were to use plastic versions of real plants that they sell in window display tanks, I'd think it would work - "We can sell you the plastic ones, or if you want, we have the real plants over here." And plastic definitely doesn't last forever and is REALLY ANNOYING when it starts to degrade. Besides looking hideous well before the disintegration point. But then the issues of knowledge and maintenance crop back up over the long term. (And I'm sure it's cheaper to sell plastic plants than keep planted stock tanks looking good, from the store's perspective.)

Unfortunately as far as enthusiasm/inspiration goes, a reef is always going to be way more exciting than a FW plant habitat, and I bet more people want fish than want plants as the primary focus of their aquarium.


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## lanceduffy

I honestly do not know how much of my time I have spent trying to understand different "methods" of running a tank.

Do we figure our internet connection fees into the cost of running our tanks?

I chased my tail all over the web trying to understand why I need lily pipes before I bought them. Would it have been better if I admitted that I just wanted them because I wanted my tank to look like Amano's? I could have just copied his placement of the pipes and not known anything about why they are placed that way. I would have had the same results.

I just read this:http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/dallas-ft-worth-aquatic-plant-club/79609-subzero-proven-method-starting-running-planted.html

I have a demanding job. I have a young family. I have many hobbies that keep me fit and active. I have a love of planted tanks. I have some resources. In reality, I don't have time for this stuff - this research, these experiments. I am beyond caring about why and just want to know how. That is actually all I ever wanted. I am willing to pay for the how. I have paid for the why with my precious time. Time spent researching the why, time spent on these forums. Time spent skimming through egos and camps and clever posts that seem determined to outwit the last poster or defend one's methods rather than answer the original question.

I have also lost money and time trying to be cheap.

In the next days, I am going to buy a new tank. I am going to buy the tank that I can afford. Not the tank that I want. I will run this tank as a system and I will not buy a system bigger than I can afford. The system I will employ stresses how you achieve a beautiful planted tank, not why it all works. I will not suffer the details, I will buy the parts and put them together. Again, I don't care why. I just want to know how to make it happen without having to take college level bio classes.

This is not some parting from the forums post. I love you peeps, I love your passion and I know that when something goes wrong, I will need the help of the people who know WHY. Plus, I am obsessed and want to help. But I just don't have time for the EI, PPS, subzero, try to figure out how everyone who buys ADA ferts are suckers B.S.

I want it easy, If I have to pay for easy that is fine. Life must go on.

Regards


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## Ernie Mccracken

lanceduffy said:


> I want it easy, If I have to pay for easy that is fine. Life must go on.


So you're hiring someone? ADG?

A central theme to this thread and many others is lack of consensus on _what_ works, even amongst us non-jetsetting types. We haven't even made it to the why part yet. I believe the hobby will grow exponentially if we ever do manage to piece together a reliable cookbook, but there has been very little interest from the scientific community, to date.


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## lanceduffy

Hiring someone, Nope. I'm just going to use the ada stuff. All of it. Mostly all of it. There seems to be a system that works. ADA. Many won't buy it because they think they are being taken advantage of. Snake oil and stuff. We love to play the victim here. 

If I lived in DFW and ADG wold come scape my humble 60p for an additional $200 with the purchase of the ada system, I would pay it. Not worrying about sourcing plants that are quality and free from algae, no paypal blah, blahs and shipping all over the web, seems worth it.


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## krisw

lanceduffy, I've spent hundreds on ADA equipment and Aquasoil over the years, and have tried lots of other substrates, DIY and commercial. I agree that ADA is the best of them in granule size, consistency, ability to hold down plants, ability to start a tank right, etc. That said, if what you're looking for is an idiot-proof system that cannot fail, it does not exist. Heck, even within the ADA Aquasoil product line, I've experienced large inconsistencies from year-to-year. I'm still working on my last bags of the old stuff, so I haven't tried the new line of Amazonia which is supposed to improve product quality/consistency, so maybe they've figured it out. Either way, good luck to you!


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## houseofcards

Most of the LFS in New York (I'm sure elsewhere as well) survive based on their installs. Almost all of these installs are saltwater. They move a disproportionate amount of livestock, product and of course employee time to these accounts. 

If knowledge is king it doesn't exist here. These customers know pretty much nothing about there saltwater setups. It's simply based on wanting something in their homes and are willing to pay through the nose for it. This does not exist in planted tanks. It's just not at all 'practical' for someone to show a picture of an Amano Setup and say I want that in my home. It's just a completely different level of maintenance, especially if someone is paying large dollars for a large showpiece setup. I should add that this isn't absolute, but in general. There are setups that can be maintained with less maintenance compared to others, but in all Saltwater setups don't change as much since there is no plant issues.


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## lanceduffy

I guess what I ignore is that I have paid my dues. I have researched, learned and practiced enough to be able to run a tank a few different ways. Through this practice, I have learned what to look out for and do a good job over 90% of the time. 

I keep on these forums because I want to know more and I am always looking for something better. It sounds like people are saying that there is nothing better and you can't just throw money at the problem. 

For now I am going to bow out of this discussion.


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## Bert H

Interesting discussions. Some rambling thoughts...

I have never kept a salt water (reef) tank, and I know next to nothing about them, so I am going to ask a few 'stupid questions' here regarding them. How do they compare to planted tanks, as far as ease of maintenance, and time to reach maturity/stability? Are there as many 'methods' to reef tanks as there are to planted? (PPS, EI, Sub-zero, Walstead, etc)

Basically, ime, planted tanks do require a fairly high amount of dedication, especially at start up, to reach an equilibrium and a mature state. Looking at Niko's sub-zero, you're looking at minimum, a 2 mo time frame where you're doing water changes every 2-3 days. How many people have the time, and dedication to devote to that?

I love finding out the 'why' and 'hows' of the mechanism to obtaining the desired result. But I certainly don't have the time to devote to it myself. I can see why folks just want to know how to do it, without necessarily wanting to understand the why you do it. Though knowing the 'why' gives you a much greater ability to correct problems when they occur. 

If your neighbor, who has never kept any kind of aquarium before, comes over and sees your beautifully planted, scaped tank, and says to you '...gee I love it! I want to set one up. What do I need to have a similar one?' What would you tell them? Would you keep it to a simple '...do this and this and this...' or would you go into an in depth discussion of methods/substrates/lighting, etc? 

As I said, just some rambling thoughts...


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## houseofcards

Some key differences between a Planted Aquascape and a Reef in terms of spending big money.

-Once you understand the science the Planted is still more maintenance due to plant growth. The Reef setup is fairly static compared to planted. I don't know how practical it is to have the masses keep a well-scaped aquascape 'well-scaped'

-Key player with Planted is the plants (overall scape) with the Reef it's still the fish. I don't know if people are so willing to spend big dollars around plants. 

-I do think (I believe Nowherman6 said it) that setting up a reef is like bringing a Caribbean vacation into your home. Many more can relate to that feeling than going to Ichetucknee Springs State Park in Florida to see aquatic plants in their natural environment.

Having knowledge and growing healthy plants is not enough to have one spend large money for planted. As mentioned most LFS survive by installing expensive saltwater setups and most of those customers know nothing about running the tank. To truly have a perfectly scaped tank for the long-term takes true dedication and passion. Not everyone who sees a photo contest pic would have that.


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## Ernie Mccracken

Bert H said:


> Interesting discussions. Some rambling thoughts...
> 
> I have never kept a salt water (reef) tank, and I know next to nothing about them, so I am going to ask a few 'stupid questions' here regarding them. How do they compare to planted tanks, as far as ease of maintenance, and time to reach maturity/stability? Are there as many 'methods' to reef tanks as there are to planted? (PPS, EI, Sub-zero, Walstead, etc)


Two completely different leagues. Even with a room full of automation equipment, [nice] reef tanks are a ton of work. The hours spent just cleaning glass and maintaining sandbeds would drop jaws around here. This is why it's rare to see a reef hobbyist with more than 1 tank at a time whereas freshwater hobbyists will commonly juggle half a dozen.

As for maturity, we're talking about 2 different scales again. Growth rates vary of course, but it takes years for a reef tank to really fill in and look mature. Compare that to most planted aquariums where it's rare for an aquascape to even make it to the 1 year mark. Instead of a few inches of plant growth every couple weeks, many corals typically grow a few inches every 6 months (or longer). Do yourself a favor and check out this thread with 4 years worth of full tank shots.

At one time, there were at least half a dozen competing methods to running a reef tank. Now that a lot of the mystery has been uncovered, most have converged into a single model. Lots of light, high flow (but low velocity), big skimmer, no phosphate, heavy feeding, and calcium/alk supplementation. There are some variations, but those are the basics. A notable holdout is the Zeovit system which still has some support over in Europe, but is viewed with a lot of skepticism by US hobbyists.



Bert H said:


> I love finding out the 'why' and 'hows' of the mechanism to obtaining the desired result. But I certainly don't have the time to devote to it myself. I can see why folks just want to know how to do it, without necessarily wanting to understand the why you do it. Though knowing the 'why' gives you a much greater ability to correct problems when they occur.


This is the prevailing attitude of most hobbyists. Time and financial constraints are a big reason that many hobbyists end up on the freshwater side of the fence. But until we have more people aggressively pursuing the "why," this hobby will continue to stagnate. We need to snag a few motivated individuals before the reef hobby grabs them.

Reefs require lots of resources, but the hobby stills enjoys such popularity because there is well established A + B = C formula for success. In contrast, how demotivating is nuisance algae for us? How much of that downer is due to the physical labor required and how much of it is mental as we go through perpetual trial and error? How many times are we going to try excel, the algae eater dartboard, guess how much CO2, or the pull a nutrient lever game?



Bert H said:


> If your neighbor, who has never kept any kind of aquarium before, comes over and sees your beautifully planted, scaped tank, and says to you '...gee I love it! I want to set one up. What do I need to have a similar one?' What would you tell them? Would you keep it to a simple '...do this and this and this...' or would you go into an in depth discussion of methods/substrates/lighting, etc?


I tell them that banging their head against a wall while tearing up $100 bills and flooding their basement would probably be a better hobby .


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## houseofcards

This is a tough discussion to have since one's idea of a planted tank is so different. If we are truly talking about a showcase aquascape with a multitude of plants finely trimmed. And the ability to keep everything in proportion etc, there is no comparison, between the maintenance of said tank and a reef tank. Also we are talking about a different type of maintenance. Pretty much anyone can clean glass, replace sandbeds do a water change and add chemicals. Not everyone can scape a tank to perfection and keep it looking that way long-term.


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## cdwill

Hey, first post here. Good thread.

As far as the topic of expanding the hobby in the US goes, it seems that in the posts in this thread, expansion often = more participants . I think that it'll remain a niche hobby relative to fish-only FW, SW, etc., but that doesn't prevent expansion of the hobby itself. Greater communication, cooperation, education, agreement on equipment/methods/etc. among existing hobbyists can grow the hobby just as much as encouraging more people to participate in the hobby would. Anyone agree/disagree?

I'm not suggesting one big drum circle or anything -- just that a hobby doesn't necessarily need to be adding participants to be advancing itself.


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## niko

So from all this talk we can safely conclude that if we know more about how to start and run a planted tank we, as a whole, can actually come up with simple steps to do it. Like ADA has done.

The problems that I saw with EI and PPS over the years is that dumb people mess their tank up and then are inclined to blame the method they chose. It all turns into too much discussion about details and the big picture is completely lost. To my knowledge I'm the only one to openly say why exactly I find the EI and PPS, the two most popular methods to run a planted tank, are a pretty bad idea. Such discussions are non-existent or are very superficial.

So we stand where we were back in 2002 as far as knowledge is concerned. I kid you not- just a tiny bit further. With just a little more understanding about light maybe (staggered light periods). Everything else - substrate, filtration, optimal CO2 levels, O2 at night, flow pattern, flow rate, what the heck happens in the substrate - are all superficially discussed every so often and never connected into a coherent method. We still argue if Fluorite or EcoComplete are better than AquaSoil. And how many people actually aerate their tanks at night AND know why they are doing it? I can go like that forever, you get the point.

I really hope that a few people will bunch together and come up with a reasonable approach that takes into an account all factors we know of at the moment. It does need to be simple. It does have to have quite a few photographs proving that the aproach works. It will take time to accept. But if we don't try we will be where we are now for who knows how long.

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

niko said:


> .. To my knowledge I'm the only one to openly say why exactly I find the EI and PPS, the two most popular methods to run a planted tank, are a pretty bad idea. Such discussions are non-existent or are very superficial.--Nikolay


Niko my friend. Why say its a bad idea if it works for many people? There are two many different methods of success that a woven into one's lifestyle to say whether one system is a bad idea or not.


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## pepetj

Money and the Hobby: Noticeable difference between our perceived difference in attitudes towards investing in SW versus FW planted tanks in the US.

That I think is the OP main theme here.

My comments based on my experience and thoughts after reading this thread thoroughly (found it last night):

There are different relations between expensive [equipment] investment and good results [balanced system] between both worlds.

For a Reef tank that correlation is pretty much straight forward: to a certain point money can buy success here much more easily than in planted tanks.

I think we can agree on that but those of us that have tried both (reef and planted) are likely to see this clearer.

Both systems are in more than one way different ball games.

I haven't read any paper on this yet but I suspect that a higher Social-Economic-Status is likely a strong predictor of the possibility of someone keeping a Reef Tank (independently of keeping or not a Planted Tank).

The opposite might likely be true: Lower Social-Economic-Status probably includes more persons keeping planted tanks than Reef tanks.

The Social-Economic-Status may therefore explain, in part, why we see some resistance to invest in equipment and rare plants, as well as the need to go DIY.

As organisms we live our lives according to context (unless we have a severe personality disorder) between two opposite extremes: Survival versus Life-Enhacement.

At Survival we strive to minimize our losses while at Life-Enhancement we strive to increase our well-being.

Things are not black and white here but consider that spending 300 to 500 usd in a nice high tech CO2 System isn't the same than spending 3,000 usd on an all rimless Starfire-Glass tank. There are degrees of spending flexibility in planted tanks that may not be there for Reef tanks.

Someone in the lower end of the SES might succeed in keeping a nice looking "El Natural" or even a nice low tech/light EI with DIY CO2 and get much more beautiful results than someone, at the same SES level attempting a FOWLR tank. Reef tanks are not truly possible to obtain while on a very limited budget.

Maybe some of us entered into planted tanks while still in "Survival" mode (in SES terms) and kept that attitude while succeeding in life and having the blessing/opportunity of living in "Life-Enhancement" mode.

I don't know many planted tank enthusiast willing to pay 500 usd for a small Bucephalandra sp; I know a few of us that probably will.

Reef enthusiast don't sit until someone "grow" corals and prices drop; I keep seeing a tendency in the opposite direction in the planted tank enthusiasts.

The "industry" and the "society" also play a role. Access to Reef gadgets is most times as easy as walking in a store or going online for US hobbyist, all you need is the money to purchase. Try to get T5HO at 8,000K in the US today (I ended purchasing mine online in Europe).

Same thing happens with livestock: a wide array of Corals, Inverts and Fish for Reef Tanks is easier to find than that Eriocaulon or Cryptocoryne sp. I truly want.

It's a cycle feeding itself: Market has two sides in the equation, the provider/seller and the consumer/buyer. Planted tanks seem to be in "stall" in the US.

Here is the core of the OP question: What explains the difference in investment attitude (tendency to go cheap) in planted tanks in the US and how do we change this reality?

It's mind baffling and the SES part of the equation falls short here unless there are truly only a few planted tank keepers with solvency and/or there are also few willing to invest (time and money) figuring how things work out in a planted tank.

That phenomena doesn't seem to happen in Europe and Asia. To some extent the same US reality is happening in my dear Caribbean half-Island.

I visited only one LFS in Berlin a couple of years ago. I was in awe with the fish varieties for both SW and FW; the aquatic plants area was a paradise; the readily available equipment for planted tanks was similar to SW.

I live in a Third World Country, where SES differences are gross. It's sometimes heart-braking for me noticing the motivation for planted (and SW) tanks in decent persons (some with college degree) with an income so small that I feel nothing but admiration mixed with pain; I don't see myself going through the difficult financial situation they are enduring and at the same time strive for a planted tank yet there they are, determined to get that savings that in a few months would put pressurized CO2 in their tank(s) even if it will work with an old single stage regulator for a good while.

Then there's our understanding of biology: Most macrophytes (terrestrial, amphibian and aquatic plants) biology and physiology is less understood today than Corals/Inverts/Fish.

Besides a few exceptions like the Barr Report (in the paid member's section) information is scarce, vague, contradictory as for what really happens in our planted tanks. I use Google translator like Niko does yet it's obvious how imperfect that tool is.

Most Reef keepers end having a nice refractometer yet how many planted tank keepers end purchasing a nice PAR meter?

Simple question, complex answer...

Pepetj
Santo Domingo


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## niko

houseofcards said:


> Niko my friend. Why say its a bad idea if it works for many people? There are two many different methods of success that a woven into one's lifestyle to say whether one system is a bad idea or not.


House, my friend.

What, I'm trying to do here is help everybody. Because we know so little.

I could post 3 topics that will show that very well.

1. What do you know about ADA's approach to running a planted tank.
2. What do you know about a specific piece of equipment that they use.
3. How do you fight algae.

Topic #2 is here actually:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/79671-question-knock-off-lily-pipes-vs.html

And so far the answers show complete disregard for the 2 of the 3 things that make ADA's Lily pipe special. (At least I learned someting I didn't know - that CalAqua's glassware is more rigid.) I have the feeling that we like Lily pipes because of the way they look and because Amano sold us something we see as "cool". That's ok, except that it keeps us where we are in our knowledge.

The fact that we know very little is nothing new.  We still don't have very good advice for every newbie that shows up. Especially when algae hits them. I hate to think that 20 years from now we will be where we are now when it comes to battling algae. Look at this guy's tanks:
http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Aquascape_Gallery2010.htm
And look at what he does to his water:
http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Gallery2010/Gallery2010_1_Infinite.htm

Note the "Filter media". Note the "Water maintenance". Note the "CO2" (at 3bps in a 60 gal. tank!). 
Now note the stem plant's health. Mindblowing to say the least. 
Where are his nutrients? We don't even know what he does and why he does it! With stem plants our best take is "Fertilize the water and control everything through chemicals."

So, here's a good quote:

_*"The problem with most failing businesses is not that their owners don't know enough about finance, marketing, management, and operations... those things are easy enough to learn... but that they spend their time and energy defending what they think they know. My experience has shown me that the people who are exceptionally good in business aren't so because of what they know but because of their insatiable need to know more." Michael Gerber *_

We have settled comfortably in what we do. And progress is much slower than it could be. With all the resources we have in the US we got to be Number 1 in knowlege about planted tanks. But we are far behind. *That will not change until we continue to defend what we think we know.* That's why I wrote the subZero post in such a critical way and emphasising what is wrong with all 3 "methods". That's why many of my posts provoke. Because we need more knowledge.

So we can make things simple.

--Nikolay


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## niko

Wow! Pepetj, being a psychology professional gave us a very valuable opinion!

Correct me if I'm wrong but despite SES and other factors I do believe that if we, as a whole, have a way to not worry about algae and a few other issues then most likely we will start creating aquascapes at least similar to Bubbles:
http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Aquascape_Gallery2010.htm

Then I do believe this hobby will have a very fast and positive development. And the perception + money will fall in place.

It seems to me that if we find proven ways to manage/supress algae the planted tank hobby will experience a true Rennaisance.

This could be as easy as a small website showing 10-20 tanks setup over the course of 1 year. And how algae showed up and was dealt with swiftly + how when introduced intentionally it dies off.

Basically if we had knowledge the hobby can be different within 1 year. How exciting is that?

--Nikolay


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## jeff5614

The thing that stands out to me about the tanks maintained by Bubbles Aquariums are what we consider insane amounts of light and what seems like very low CO2 levels. The one linked by Niko has over 300 watts of T5HO on a 120cm tank with a CO2 bubble rate of 3 bps. Also noticed they use some sort of bacteria fortifying additives with each water change.


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## niko

Read his article about the Nitrogen Cycle under "Knowledge". That may answer why he uses bacteria after a water change. Besides - Amano does it and suggest it too.

One thing I noticed is that in 2007 Bubbles was adding NPK and using N and P removers at the same time. By 2010 that apparently changed.

And the other strange thing is his belief in all that Plocher Energy system mumbo-jumbo. Tourmaline, Penac P, Penac W. Metal coins under the substrate...I just hate that stuff because I know everything! Can't he just adjust his nutrients and be done with it? Geez!

<For the occasional reader that does not know my sense of humor - the last paragraph above contains *iSarcasm™* >

--Nikolay


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## pepetj

I can't find Nutrafin's WasteControl DSMS yet in Hagen's FAQ they state that this product decompose solid waste: "waste are reduced to their lowest components by the bacteria team". The info is still vague (reduced as in ion/cation exchange?) but makes me wonder if:

We may have two sources here capable of providing at least N and P to the water column in more than one way from these added heterotrophic bacteria: as byproduct while alive as well as once dead; how relevant or not this "probable" nutrient source is we just don't know. 

Leaching nutrients from the substrate into the water column from the "mumbo-jumbo" stuff is another variable that we may consider.

I do figure that the massive death of heterotrophic bacteria in Cycle should provide more nutrients to the plants through the water column. 

Add fish waste and uneaten fish food to the equation and we may have enough to provide at least slow-growth; N and P removers keep the levels on the low side constantly and as long as its probable periods of depletion doesn't "dry out" plant's reserves it shouldn't affect overall plant health other than its growth rate.

I have a problem with 3 bps of CO2. It tells me nothing as for how much bioavailable carbon ends up in the water column. We need to measure it to actually know (I mean with calibrated instrument which is prohibitive). The absence of algae suggest CO2 is not a limiting factor here unless... despite being limited the huge amount of heterotrophic bacteria kept alive in this tank outcompetes algae or maybe another explanation I haven't considered... yet (we are on the hunt for those aren't we?)

This discussion may seem to be off-topic but unless we understand all the facts we remain working with unproved hypothesis if not total ignorance. 

Fairly good level of knowledge of how things work allow Reef Keeping with minimal risk; the cost of equipment that solve the problems we understand may be expensive or not; in Reef keeping they usually are so SW fellows must invest or forget about it; in FW planted tank we are still figuring things out and I agree, until we do -at least to the extent of keeping algae as a negligible nuisance- we have little room of changing things, at least in the US market.

Pepetj
Santo Domingo


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## pepetj

One of my dearest live plants provider/seller, David, has a nice business in the US; he sets up beautiful planted tanks and rent them with maintenance routine, like Bubbles is doing in Hong Kong.

Check his website:http://displariums.com/

He's a member of APC by the way; it would be interesting to learn from his experience.

Pepetj
Santo Domingo


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## houseofcards

Appreciate what your trying to do, but I still feel these are the main obstacles that need to be overcome before we can say something about controlling algae.



houseofcards said:


> Some key differences between a Planted Aquascape and a Reef in terms of spending big money.
> 
> -Once you understand the science the Planted is still more maintenance due to plant growth. The Reef setup is fairly static compared to planted. I don't know how practical it is to have the masses keep a well-scaped aquascape 'well-scaped'
> 
> -Key player with Planted is the plants (overall scape) with the Reef it's still the fish. I don't know if people are so willing to spend big dollars around plants.
> 
> -I do think (I believe Nowherman6 said it) that setting up a reef is like bringing a Caribbean vacation into your home. Many more can relate to that feeling than going to Ichetucknee Springs State Park in Florida to see aquatic plants in their natural environment.


Having knowledge and growing healthy plants is not enough to have one spend large money for planted. As mentioned most LFS survive by installing expensive saltwater setups and most of those customers know nothing about running the tank. To truly have a perfectly scaped tank for the long-term takes true dedication and passion. Not everyone who sees a photo contest pic would have that.

The 'household' names in this hobby like Amano, Knott, etc. have IMO a much deeper sense of passion for the hobby than a typical planted tank aquarist might have. They are also professionals and image is everything as is Bubbles Aquarium. No doubt those tanks are gorgeous, but many would require way too much maintenance even with all algae issues controlled for most to deal with effectively.


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## carlschr

I think that one explanation is that planted aquariums attract a different breed of folks than do marine aquariums. Getting into the hobby is very difficult, as others have mentioned. First, you have to find out that the hobby exists! We only discovered planted aquariums when we stumbled upon a gallery of aquascapes on BoingBoing.net. A few weeks later, while on vacation in San Francisco, we serendipitously walked past Aqua Forrest Aquariums where we discovered that those cool pictures on the internet were actually real! There's no “how to” book and (unless you live in SF) there's no one to ask for advice. It takes a lot of time and ingenuity to set up your first planted tank. You have to do tons of research just to figure out the basics. Then you have to piece it together with items that you order online from various merchants and hobbyists. For that reason, I think it attracts people who have more time than money. And people who like to tinker—thus the DIY ethos. 

Also, judging from the posts I read, there are a lot of teenagers who are into the hobby in the US. In a few years, once they grow up and get jobs, there will a lot more people in the hobby who can afford to buy quality stuff!!!

As the hobby grows in the US, it will become more accessible and will then attract a broader audience.


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## TheWoo

Most of my years were spent in the UK having been born in Scotland and raised in a small mining village in England. I was given my first aquarium on my eleventh birthday in 1968. 24" x 12" x 12" iron frame and a slate bottom. My uncle who gave me the aquarium still has several tanks and is a mentor to any who will ask their questions.

I am no expert but I have enjoyed watching some of my fish breed, and some still remain on my "one of these days list". 

Over the years I have seen many stores open and close, some lasted longer than others. Fewer still are still in business, handed down from father to son, and have become a family affair. I could not say one way or the other what makes some succeed and others not. 

Now living in the USA I find that things are very much cheaper, and consequently even on a low budget I can indulge myself in the "oh that looks nice syndrome".

One store owner I was speaking with a couple of years ago (had been open 16 years at the time) said he usually dealt with new people to the hobby, he would see them fairly regularly for two years. Then they would either give up and sell their equipment or they would join a club and get their fish and most of their equipment from other members of the club. 

Now of course there is the electronic inter-super-highway-net. Where we are always happy to buy in bulk and of course therefore a little cheaper. (remember my low budget)

I cannot provide any answers to the original question, or smart off the cuff comments. What I can say is that I do think the hobby is growing, and while we are ready willing and able to pass on our acquired knowledge there will always be one or two younger folk that will be more than happy to learn and try it themselves.


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## niko

To me the time has come to use all the knowledge we have accumulated over the years and start setting up tanks that are pure enjoyment and no or very little problems and frustrations.

If we can make such tanks happen I'm sure the interest in the hobby will not only increase even more. The hobby will start to become part of one's lifestyle, not just a fleeting interest full of a lot of social interaction and quite a bit of frustration mixed with the joy of the hobby.

--Nikolay


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## PAXpress

niko said:


> To me the time has come to use all the knowledge we have accumulated over the years and start setting up tanks that are pure enjoyment and no or very little problems and frustrations.
> 
> If we can make such tanks happen I'm sure the interest in the hobby will not only increase even more. The hobby will start to become part of one's lifestyle, not just a fleeting interest full of a lot of social interaction and quite a bit of frustration mixed with the joy of the hobby.
> 
> --Nikolay


Although it is a great idea i dont believe even if this perfect or near perfect tank were possible that if there was such a tank setup free of problems and frustration then there would be little enjoyment left to the aquarist. That would be like if the first time you were to set up a beautiful aquascape you just snapped a photograph of it and trashed the whole setup and placed the photo where the tank was. The perfect tank with no frustration or maintenance. I know this is off topic but just think for me if I never had to do any maintenance to the tank and it never created any unwanted frustration that the tank would be boring and a waste of space. Sorry that it took me this much reading to basically just say "no pain no game" in this hobby we just have to take the good with the bad.

I do however agree that if there was a well defined easy to reproduce cheap and easy to maintain tank style it would bring in more beginners to the hobby.


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## Zapins

I agree. It would be nice to see a solution. More people would enter the hobby for sure. Maybe keeping a planted tank would become something like keeping house plants - everyone has them. I think at that point the focus would change to aquascaping rather then warding off algae problems.


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## Michael

"I do however agree that if there was a well defined easy to reproduce cheap and easy to maintain tank style it would bring in more beginners to the hobby."

This exists: the Walstad method, especially if you add the enhancements of good circulation, generous biofiltration, and moderate modern lighting.


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## PAXpress

Michael said:


> "I do however agree that if there was a well defined easy to reproduce cheap and easy to maintain tank style it would bring in more beginners to the hobby."
> 
> This exists: the Walstad method, especially if you add the enhancements of good circulation, generous biofiltration, and moderate modern lighting.


Well not only do these methods need to exist they need to be more readily available to newcomers. Not that newcomers don't have access to this method just no one to point them too it. How many employees at the big name pet retailers have ever recommended a walstad style to a customer who asks for a way to setup and maintain their tank that would be easy cheap and natural. Probably never. They just recommended some expensive chemicals filters and other unnecessary junk to confuse the beginner more. Then several months down the road the beginner aquarist does finally hear about other methods like these but feels that it would be too overwhelming and too much of a hassle to clear the slate and start all over with the walstad method. Sorry this has gotten really off topic from what this thread was made for. I once read that undergravel filters were the closest thing to how nature filters its water. More natural than a heaping helping of plants and a bit of dirt?
And it seems as if people look right through the plants and only really seem to give a crap about their silly little 5 dollar zebra danios of ugly unnatural colors. Why spend time maintaining some stationary little plant in the back right corner when I could buy 3 plastic ones for the same price?


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## Michael

"Well not only do these methods need to exist they need to be more readily available to newcomers."

That is what we are here for.

I did a 90 gallon Walstad demo tank at my LFS. It is the only planted tank in the store, and the owner was quite skeptical about it. It has been up and running trouble-free for about 3 months without a single water change! Not that I recommend this, but it made a believer of the shop owner. And he tells everyone who asks how it was done. At least three new members have joined our local club because of that tank, and the support they get on this forum.


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## Silvering

Zapins said:


> Maybe keeping a planted tank would become something like keeping house plants


Please, no! The only houseplant that does really well for me is the peace lily. I killed houseplants on a regular basis before I settled on the lilies! I want my aquarium to be _easier_ than keeping house plants! 

I suspect one of the problems with dirt tanks is the marketing angle - having to wade through the dozen or so kinds of soil at a gardening center is probably too daunting for a newcomer, but the ADA stuff is (a) not available everywhere and (b) really expensive for a newcomer who may not be sure they want the full "planted" effect. Also, buying enough plants to fully pack a new setup with dirt would be really expensive, unless you're already in touch with a forum or club. (In which case, you're not really the "newcomer" we're talking about as far as I can tell.) Other than the ADA system there doesn't seem to be a "convenience" factor in planted aquaria yet.


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## Michael

Silvering said:


> I suspect one of the problems with dirt tanks is the marketing angle - having to wade through the dozen or so kinds of soil at a gardening center is probably too daunting for a newcomer, but the ADA stuff is (a) not available everywhere and (b) really expensive for a newcomer who may not be sure they want the full "planted" effect. Also, buying enough plants to fully pack a new setup with dirt would be really expensive, unless you're already in touch with a forum or club. (In which case, you're not really the "newcomer" we're talking about as far as I can tell.) Other than the ADA system there doesn't seem to be a "convenience" factor in planted aquaria yet.


Well said! I've tried to convince the shop owner to carry at least the supplies for mineralized top soil, if not the finished product. But because of his agreements with suppliers and economics of wholesale purchasing, he can never compete with big box stores on these products. And making his own MTS is out of the question.

The plant quantity problem is why I preach cheap stem plants to beginners--pack the tank with them until the slower growers that you really want can take over.


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## OneDaySale

Michael said:


> "Well not only do these methods need to exist they need to be more readily available to newcomers."
> 
> That is what we are here for.
> 
> I did a 90 gallon Walstad demo tank at my LFS. It is the only planted tank in the store, and the owner was quite skeptical about it. It has been up and running trouble-free for about 3 months without a single water change! Not that I recommend this, but it made a believer of the shop owner. And he tells everyone who asks how it was done. At least three new members have joined our local club because of that tank, and the support they get on this forum.


I applaud you for the work you did in growing the hobby. I have several years of experience now and I think that the major difference between salt and freshwater is that planted tanks are never really seen by the majority of ppl (they don't go to specialized LFS; their experience with aquaria is seeing tanks of fish at the megastores). Finding Nemo fueled a boom on reefs simply because it put the idea in lots of people's heads. With the advent of new methods/technology making reefs more feasible, many people see reefs as the "dream." Freshwater is seen as what you do to keep fish "cheap" or when young. To change those perceptions and to grow the hobby (if that's what we want to do), people need to see what the possibilities are. I wish I had the skill/time to do what you did. Best I have done so far is to maintain a 10 gallon tank with some simple fish and wood/java fern in my son's classroom the past several years.


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## BenChod

What i wanted to say may be little sensitive and too lengthily so i wanted to make just one point. 

How many people went on vacation and they went snorkeling to see all the pretty fish and the reef. How many people went of a vacation and went snorkeling in the river to see all the freshwater fish and plants.

Amazon river is the most famous freshwater habitat in the world and the tourism industry for the river is based on fishing and not diving or snorkeling. Most people are not aware how beautiful freshwater plant tanks can be. I am looking forward to get involved in this hobby and should set up my tank soon.


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## krisw

BenChod, you're exactly right. There seem to be far fewer opportunities for people to snorkel in beautiful nature planted environments than ocean ones. The best I've ever been to, however, is Ichetucknee Springs in Florida. That's an underwater planted wonderland for snorkeling!


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## houseofcards

It's funny there was a similiar thread on TPT and I also mentioned the saltwater vs freshwater snorkeling comparison but for a different reason:

"Without a doubt it's the fish. Most out there just don't have an appreciation for a planted aquascape in the same way they do for a colorful fish. When you go snorkeling and you spot something, when you go to the surface you tell your buddy "I just saw this fish or that fish," most wouldn't mention the look of the whole reef. How many people go snorkeling in freshwater compared to salt?"


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## Michael

Planted freshwater aquara may never be as popular as saltwater. But does that matter? We know that there are beginners out there who ARE interested in planted tanks but who cannot get reliable information. They show up on our "Introductions" and "New to planted aquariums" forums daily.

When I show my gardening friends my tanks, they almost always say "Wow, I never knew an aquarium could look like that!" They've seen the marine fish, and they don't care. They want plants and gardens, and if the gardens are in a glass box filled with water in the house it just makes them more interesting.


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