# [Wet Thumb Forum]-The great rotala macrandra conspiracy



## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Ok, maybe not a conspiracy exactly ...

About a year ago, a friend at an auction gave me a bag with a few cuttings of rotala macrandra, which at the time I knew nothing about. When I got home, I pushed the stems into my substrate, and it has been a love affair of sorts ever since.

Fast forward to last week. I was having a discussion with a person looking to setup a planted tank for the first time. They were asking about easy to keep plants, and I mentioned rotala macrandra. Another plant keeper, shocked at the suggestion, mentioned that rotala requires lots of light, lots of nutrients, and CO2. This prompted me to do a little research, and indeed those seem to be the recommendations I most often see for rotala macrandra. 

What I find interesting is that with the exception of Valisneria Americana, I have never kept a faster growing, easier to maintain plant than rotala m. I keep it in four tanks .. none of which have CO2, all get dosed with the minimum amount of Flourish recommended (if that), and have at most 2 watts per gallon of NO flourescent lighting. The plant is a wonderful color (as far as my colorblind eyes can tell .. but everyone else seems to like the red coloring), and grows quite tall in short order. I am curious what other people's experiences with this plant are. Perhaps something in my tank water makeup can be attributed to the good growth that allows me to have such luck without the "required" parameters.

Typical tank specs:
2 wpg lighting 
Flourish for micros (1ml per 25g, once per week)
Substrate: Flourite, pool filter sand, Onyx
CO2: None
pH: 7.6
KH: 1.5
GH: 13

Dave


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Ok, maybe not a conspiracy exactly ...

About a year ago, a friend at an auction gave me a bag with a few cuttings of rotala macrandra, which at the time I knew nothing about. When I got home, I pushed the stems into my substrate, and it has been a love affair of sorts ever since.

Fast forward to last week. I was having a discussion with a person looking to setup a planted tank for the first time. They were asking about easy to keep plants, and I mentioned rotala macrandra. Another plant keeper, shocked at the suggestion, mentioned that rotala requires lots of light, lots of nutrients, and CO2. This prompted me to do a little research, and indeed those seem to be the recommendations I most often see for rotala macrandra. 

What I find interesting is that with the exception of Valisneria Americana, I have never kept a faster growing, easier to maintain plant than rotala m. I keep it in four tanks .. none of which have CO2, all get dosed with the minimum amount of Flourish recommended (if that), and have at most 2 watts per gallon of NO flourescent lighting. The plant is a wonderful color (as far as my colorblind eyes can tell .. but everyone else seems to like the red coloring), and grows quite tall in short order. I am curious what other people's experiences with this plant are. Perhaps something in my tank water makeup can be attributed to the good growth that allows me to have such luck without the "required" parameters.

Typical tank specs:
2 wpg lighting 
Flourish for micros (1ml per 25g, once per week)
Substrate: Flourite, pool filter sand, Onyx
CO2: None
pH: 7.6
KH: 1.5
GH: 13

Dave


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Sigh. YOU'RE the one.







For every plant that some people can't grow to save their lives, there's someone who can grow it anywhere with no trouble at all! Actually, I think you beat the toughest part of macranda right off the bat when you got nice healthy cuttings from someone who just took it out of his tank, that was always my biggest struggle with it, getting some stems into my tank that weren't mush already. I did finally get a few bunches a few months back that weren't in terrible shape, and out of all of those I wound up with one stem that actually grew. Once it finally DID grow, however, it grew like crazy,and I've since been able to turn the one stem into a nice bunch through cuttings. I became really attached to that original stem--I'd cut off the top, plant it, and the bottom would put out another nice stem. Kept doing it until I had about a dozen nice stems (you can see mine at my website below in the 120 gallon tank if you want--click on Tanks 2003 on the Home page). However, I'm growing mine at 3 pc wpg, pressurized CO2, added macro and micronutrients. Hmmm--maybe I should have just tried sticking it in a smaller tank with fewer nutrients!

By the way, I see nothing in your water parameters that gives any indication your tanks would be macranda paradise--except maybe the hardness. At least in my experience, macranda requires LOTS of micronutrients; maybe your water just happens to contain a lot of the trace elements that make it happy.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Those are some beautiful tanks!

I guess turnabout is fair play. I see you have some very nice giant hygro plants, and I have never been able to get them to grow in any of my tanks.

Dave


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Thanks, Dave! Giant hygro is one of the plants I always recommend as a good starter plant, it's always done well for me.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Your tanks are truly beautiful Vicki. I've never had Adolfoi corys and would love some in my 6-gallon tank!

My rotalla died back suddenly over a period of 2 weeks it sort of disolved. I'm tempted to pull it out. I fertilize 2x weekly with all the Seachem stuff, pH 6.8, KH 11, Onyx Sand 4", 110 watts over a 36 gallon tank.

Any suggestions or explanations why the stems died back?

Thanks,
Carlos

I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

David, can you please post your address here.
It'll make it easier for the driveby.









Man, out of all the plants that I've kept (over 40 species) rotala macranda tops the list on
difficulty. I can't for the life of me get it to grow nice. And here you are telling me
that you're growing it with no problems.
Are you sure its macranda and not rotundafolia?

Currently I'm trying it again (round two) and
having a little better luck but it still not easy.
I managed to get one stem growing from a bunch
of mush that I bought and it seems that it'll
have spurts. It'll grow really fast and then
all of a sudden just stop. Send off side shoots
and the whole process begins again. I've managed
to get 6-7 stems going now from the single one
that I started with but I wouldn't call them
nice looking just yet.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Hi Ghaz, (can I call you Ghaz for short?)

That's the same problem I'm having with my Rotala. In a matter of 2 weeks it went from beautiful to crap, lol. It's still in the tank but I'm tempted to remove it. How long does it take for yours to rejuvenate?

Thanks,
Carlos

I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Thanks, Tenor! I really love my adolfos--it's awfully hard to pick and choose among cories, but if I had to pick I guess the adolfos would be my favorites. They are very outgoing and friendly, and always seem to be out front! A few months ago I moved them from my 20 long to the 120 gallon, and I have to say they love the extra room, they've been a lot more active in that tank and spawn regularly. Still, a few of them would probably do fine in your 6-gallon. They're hard to come by in my area, but my lfs special ordered six of them for me, and then got in eight. I just couldn't leave those two little guys by themselves, so I took all of them and I've never regretted it.

Ghazanfar, all I have to do is look at my macranda to see if I need to add traces and phosphate. When it runs out of fuel it stops in its tracks. If there are no bubbles on the macranda I run for the fertilizers.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

LOL Ghazanfar ... well, I guess it must be beginner's luck with this plant. I am positive it is macrandra (at least from the pictures I have seen). The only advice I can give is this: whatever grows cyanobacteria must also grow rotala macrandra. The two tanks that I have the worst bga problems in are also somehow the two that grow rotala the best. Go figure.

Dave


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

Great clue. Low nitrates!

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I never found macrandra to be "easy" to grow
by any means... by easy, I mean a plant
that can grow in any conditions. 

I first started out with an ugly looking stem
that was wasting away. I tried again a year
later and got some *spectacular* specimens. Took about a month to take hold in my tank, but
once it did it grew incredibly fast with
2 w/g PC and DIY C02, striking the surface in
a 55 gallon every two weeks after a merciless topping that left only 3-4 inch stems in the substrate. When I increased the lighting,
it seemed to grow even faster, got
better coloration, and pearled much more...
but it also became much more tempermental.
I couldn't make as many mistakes as when
I had only 2 w/g because it would stunt.
Same story with Rotala wallichii. Plants
simply aren't driven as hard as under high lighting and become much more forgiving.

Low nitrate definitely is a factor, though!

Carlos


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

Now that you guys mention low Nitrate I can add that my rotala started to wither as I began increasing the KNO4. I'll try slowly reducing the amount and note changes.

Thanks,
Carlos

I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Since nitrates are being mentioned, I will add that my tanks always seem to register at 10-20 ppm (with a Seachem test kit, so take it for what it's worth) unless the bga is getting thick. At that point, I can add as much KNO3 as I want, and I will never get a positive reading. I suppose that is probably another potentially interesting post for a later date ...

Dave


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Dave, do you by chance add pieces of Jobe's sticks near the base of the stems? I'm having the same exact problem as Ghazanfar, except with ALL of my Rotalas (I have three different species). The only time I had good growth with my R. indica was when I was adding Jobe's. I stopped using them a long time ago, but just to test my theory, I added a few to the base of my R. macranda 'small-leaf' and R. sp. 'nanjenshan' this evening (they were in my only tank without shrimp). Incidentally, I've been having very pathetic growth of Hemianthus micranthemoides for a LONG time and I put a piece of Jobe's by them, too. 

If it turns out that these guys show improved growth with the Jobe's, it might mean that they have an easier time getting nitrogen from ammonia than nitrate. But I shouldn't jump the gun... I'll see what happens over the next few weeks. 

I'd still be interested to know if you add anything at the roots. Thanks. Oh - last thing: would you consider your tank over-stocked with fish or no?

-Naomi


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Gnome,

I have used some Jobes in the past, but I try to stay away from them (I tend to uproot things alot and Jobes can be messy). What I have been adding to the root areas for the most part are Flourish Tabs, which without trying to sound like a Seachem salesperson, are about the single greatest thing I have found for good plant growth.

I don't consider the tank to be overstocked, but for reference, these are the fish in my 75g tank where the rotala seems to do the best:

5 zebra loaches
5 bosemani rainbows
5 pristella tetras
10 emperor tetras (hard to say, they breed like rabbits)
2 bristlenose plecos
1 SAE

My 20g tank where the rotala also does quite well is very much understocked, having only 3 corries, a bristlenose, and a lonely female threadfin rainbow.

Dave


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I have tried adding jobes sticks to the bases of some plants when they were doing poorly in my 20 gallon. IME, it didn't help. I placed
them at the bases of Didiplis diandra, Hemianthus micranthemoides, Rotala spec. Nanjenshan, Rotala wallichii, Rotala spec 'green' and a red Nesaea sp with no
visible results. I had to dig up the jobe stick pieces and siphon them out since I think they were responsible in part for a green water outbreak later on. They've always worked for
my Blyxa aubertii and Echinodorus sp though!

Carlos


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Carlos, which Jobe's formula did you use? I could never find the one for palms and ferns so I just went with the 13-4-5. 

I wonder if root feedings (not necessarily Jobe's) is more important for some of us who can't seem to get the liquid dosing right...? Most of my testing kits have all passed their expiration dates so I can't really measure how much of what nutrient I have in the water column. I've been varying my dosages to see if I get differing effects. Nothing seems to help my Rotalas. 

Well, I should be able to tell in a few days if the root feedings are helping any. Thanks for the replies!


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Naomi,

I used palms and ferns on mine. To this day, my Rotala spec. Nanjenshan still hasn't
grown an inch for over two months. I started out with small, sickly looking specimens, and
I think my inability to keep the tank
stable for over a month (failing CO2, fish
medications, etc) was just too much. I'm
just going to pull out the stump, since
there is another hobbyist here with healthy
Rotala spec. Nanjenshan.
The Hemianthus micranthemoides actually
began to grow like a weed after I took out
the stick. I think it needed some time
to adapt to my tank (as usual for this species). Now, it's too invasive! 

Good luck,

Carlos


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Hmmm... The only time I can remember having good growth from my pearl grass and R. indica was when I WAS adding the Jobe's. When I removed the Jobe's, the plants started getting dark-green, stunted leaves, even getting brown and brittle on parts of the stems. I was going to chuck all of the pearl grass, but snipped off six 1/2" bits that looked like they *might* survive. They did grow roots, but the leaves continued to come in dark green, stunted and funny-looking. Amazingly, I noticed today that the tips of two stems are growing leaves that are more normal-colored... This happened literally overnight! I have yet to see if the leaves grow to normal size and if this continues. It'll take longer to determine if the Rotalas are reaping any benefits, but I'll come back with preliminary results. 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my pygmy cories don't suffer ammonia poisoning and that I don't get green water or other weird algae growth. I broke the Jobe's into really small pieces so here's hoping...


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well I saw the pictures of the cuttings you gave someone who posted on the newsgroup, and I really do not think what you have is macrandra. Not any recognizable macrandra. There are several people from this group that grow traditional macrandra, and it looks nothing like yours! Jared Weinberger has some great looking pictures.

What you have is a gorgeous red plant, but it may have entirely different needs from traditional macrandra, which is a very difficult plant to grow. I am assuming you are speaking about the plant that was discussed in the newsgroup correct? You got it from Albany right?

Yours has an entirely different leaf shape, it looks like a dark red Hygrophila polysperma or Nesea.

Here is Jared's










Here is the pic of the guy you gave cuttings too



















They look nothing alike to me

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Wed March 05 2003 at 11:39 PM.]

[This message was edited by Robert H on Wed March 05 2003 at 11:47 PM.]


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Robert .. I'm curious who your response is to .. it's too early for me to figure it out I guess.

I will say that Jared's macrandra is a much darker red than mine, but the plant looks to be the same.

Dave


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Robert H:
> Well I saw the pictures of the cuttings you gave someone who posted on the newsgroup, and I really do not think what you have is macrandra. Not any recognizable macrandra.


From the pictures, the bottom plant, although
it looks different from the top one, is IMO Rotala macranda. When grown in lower light
R. macranda gets the yellow/pink blotchy leaves.
The leaf shape can also vary from short and wide
like bacopa carolina to long and narrow, as in
the picture.

Yesterday I saw some at the LFS. Totally different color. Bright pink. Like neon pink.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Ghazanfar,

That coloring sounds more like what I am seeing with my rotala .. very light pinkish coloring (from what my wife tells me) on the top 1/3 to 1/2 of the plant. I don't have enough light in the tank to keep the bottom leaves happy. I will try to get a picture online soon, although I am a bit embarassed to show pictures of my tanks after seeing those from the other people here









Dave


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

That is definitely one of the several
varieties of Rotala macrandra. There are
many (narrow leaf/magenta, small green, large
green, small leaf, variegated, and the traditional version).
A poster on aquaticquotient posted a similar
picture and asked if it was Rotala macrandra
var 'variegated'. Personally, I am not
sure since I have no picture for comparison
but the bottom plant is definitely a macrandra
variety.

Carlos


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Yes, that's clearly NOT macranda. It looks exactly like hygro poly v. rosenarvig, except it's the deepest red I've ever seen--and red stems, too! Gorgeous! I thought mine was pretty, but it was never anywhere near THAT red.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

LOL! I'm glad to see we're all in agreement! Either we were all posting at the same time or I just missed the other replies. Nevertheless, I stick by my original assessment and agree with Robert. I think it's a hygro poly variety of some kind, which would account for it doing so well under the conditions Dave described--assuming it was Dave you were talking to, Robert, I wasn't sure either. I'm willing to be educated, but I have never seen any macranda (or any rotala species, for that matter) with different colored veins, and the leaf shape is very different also. Pictures, anyone?

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Hehe .. this is getting confusing.

The reason I asked whom Robert was referring to is that I have not given any cuttings of this plant to anyone, and I don't have any pictures of the plant online. The plant I have is rotala macrandra (at least 90% certain of it). I will try to get a picture tonight to clear things up.

Dave


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I agree with Vicki, it's either H. polysperma rosanervig or it could be an insanely red H. polysperma "Tropic Sunset".

Proverbs 3:7-8


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## Mortadelo (Mar 14, 2004)

Is there a difference between the Sunset and the Rosanervig?. I thought they were just commercial names for the same plant, Hygro poly. infected by virus.


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

I see why so many of you are confused. Or maybe its me. Either way, heres a picture of
polysperma








You can't see it in this picture but the stems
are green with green leaves towards the bottom.
Rotala macranda will have red stems, even if
its not growing well.

My assesment:
Rotala macranda growing in lower light with
some decifiency. Maybe iron.

I'll take a pic of my rotala macranda tonight.
Its got the same leaf shape but different
coloration.

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

Heres a couple of other pics..
Not mine and they aren't good pics but
you'll notice the variable color, veins
and leaf shape
http://www.rva.ne.jp/gallary2/mizukusa/yukei/rotara/macurandora_var0540.jpg
http://www.aquainf.de/pflanzen/rotalamacr.jpg

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I agree with Ghazanfar on this one. I have grown macrandra under lower light, and it grew similarly as regard to leaf shape and color.
The veinations are most likely a deficiency.

Hygrophila polysperma will never have such bright red, succulent looking stems or elongate, soft looking leaves. H. polysperma has a woodier stem. 

Carlos


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

OK, Sorry, my comments were directed to you Dave... rotala magenta is a different specie from macrandra..there are several Rotala species, macrandra is one of them, magenta is another.

I have never heard of a narrow leaf macrandra. Macrandra has almost rose like clusters of leaves. The color can vary somewhat from a dark blood red to a lighter shade, and the varigated type which is green and red...but even the varigted type does not have the vein coloration you see in the picture of the so called macrandra that the person got from Dave.

My first thought from seeing the close up of the picture was that it was hygrophila, but then looking at the pic of the whole plant, it doesn't really look like hygrophila...but it defenetly does not look like rotala macrandra!

Doesn't look much like the Rotala magenta I have sold either

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Robert H:
> I have never heard of a narrow leaf macrandra. Macrandra has almost rose like clusters of leaves.


Hehe, may I add to the confusion? I have macranda that initially started off as broad-leaved but suddenly changed into a narrow-leaf form (I'm talking almost like rotundifolia/indica) and has now developed an intermediate-width leaf form once I got my pressurized system up. Ya like that?







I still haven't figured out what the deficiency was that caused the change into the narrow leaf form, but I suspect it may have been deficient CO2 since I was having troubles with my yeast mixtures for a while.

Although it grows well for me, macranda is an extremely sensitive plant that responds to variable conditions with equally variable growth. I've had it grow stunted, shriveled leaves with extremely close internodes to big leaves with longer internodes, splotchy greenish red leaves to bright magenta leaves, etc. The major constants in growth form have been the texture of the leaves (always very soft) and the color of the stem (always red).

One thing you can do to differentiate between H. poly 'Rosanervig' and macranda is to pluck a leaf and hold the end of it with your thumb and forefinger out of the water. If it cannot hold its shape (i.e., always droops and sticks against your skin), it's more likely to be macranda. Another thing is that the stem of macranda is more pliable/softer than it is brittle, while H. poly's stems are more brittle than pliable. If by bending the stem ninety degrees you cause it to snap, it's more likely H. poly.

2la


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Oh, sorry Dave! I got you confused with Dave Millman! I'm so sorry! OK...nevermind! I guess we will have to wait til Dave Millman posts here to debate if what he has is macrandra or not!!!









Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

I think what we call rotala magenta is in fact narrow leaf macranda--at least, that's the impression I get from the Kasselman book. I have both macranda and the narrow leaf variety sold to me as magenta. The narrow leaf's reds become incredibly intense at high light as the plant approaches the top of the tank, but lower growing stems have the same pink-orange-red coloration regular macranda does.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2003)

I saw some good growing macrandra in a non CO2 Discus tanks. But only part of it was doing well. Some leaves where miss further down.

But if you use moderate light, say 2w/gal, it does do pretty good. It's a NO3 hog. 

I've grown it well at higher light, and much deeper red than the pictures. You might get better color if the non CO2 tank is doing well.I've had very good color in a number of plants like Alternathera reineckii.

The narrow version is a nice plant. Jeff Kropp has done very well with his groups.

It is very distinct from the regular macrandra.

Just to piss folks off, I'm grow of all things, Eustralis in a non CO2 tank. Doing slow but good. So's the hairgrass. Go figure.

But they are doing better in my high light CO2 tank so folks can do both.

Plants I think generally will always do better if you add CO2, more light/nutrients but people screw up the balance or don't add the nutrients at the right time etc. They blame the plants then.

Well, I'll be interested to see how the ES does as time goes on.

I've grown hairgrass in the past in non CO2 tanks very nicely. I'm seeing if I can do it again by the same method.
The grass has sent out runners so far.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

Okay, I browsed through the Oriental Aquarium Plant catalog that my LFS has on hand and noticed that there is indeed a variegated variety of R. macranda, and it looks just like the picture in Robert's post.

Here are some personal examples of how this plant's varied in appearance under different conditions. It's positively not R. magenta (= macranda var. "narrow leaf"?) as this has been sold at the LFS and looks very different in its emersed form (almost like Nesaea sp.):









DIY CO2 and I think before I discovered Fleet enema.

















DIY CO2, I _think_ after I discovered Fleet enema.














I'm not sure how to explain the paler color since I must have been dosing iron and was well short on nitrates at the time.









Just started pressurized CO2 and was getting up to speed on fertilization. Prior to this while I was having weird troubles getting a DIY reactor going, the leaves were small and distorted with slow growth and extremely short internodes. When I started the pressurized system up, the leaves changed into this narrow-leaf pattern, lengthening as they reached closer to the light. Compare with the other pictures.









Pressurized CO2 and up to speed with fertilization. Leaves seem slightly thinner and longer than in pictures 1 and 2 under DIY CO2 but nowhere near as thin as in the third picture.

Is this the normal broad-leaved form or in fact the narrow-leaved form?


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Interesting pictures!!! I'd say that's the "normal" broadleaf form; even the third picture really doesn't resemble the narrow leaf I have. The leaves of mine have very straight edges with no droop, and are much narrower--almost like an elongated rotundifolia leaf, but with much deeper coloration. The lights aren't on at the moment, but I'll try and get a decent picture later.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

Thanks, Vicki, that's what I thought, and lends credence to the thinking that the narrow leaf form is being sold as Rotala magenta, which looks like a larger, more richly colored R. rotundifolia. That growth in that third picture just really threw me off!










[This message was edited by 2la on Mon March 10 2003 at 11:54 AM.]


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## imported_Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 31, 2003)

Take a look at the macranda in Kasselman

-
Ghazanfar Ghori


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

If only I had a copy...Rex?...


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Ok, hold on.....Ok, it's got the narrow leaf.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


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