# General Advice 55 Gal



## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

I know I have said it, the dreaded 55 gal tank. I have this tank from turtles that I no longer have and I'm looking to turn it into a fish tank. I'm planning to stock it with fish such as:
-Zebra Danios
-Electic Blue Cichlids
-Maybe a pea puffer 
- A single blue cray fish maybe?
-inverterbrets (sp) as well... Although all I seem to find available are Cherry and Crystal shrimp...although they do look sweet around the ground cover.
Not sure what else I'd like to have. This whole tank I'd like to slowly set up and make it unique and different.

What I currently have:
- 55 Gal Tank 48" long 21" tall, 13" deep
- Rena Filstar XP3 With biomax rings
- 48" T12 single bulb fixture, with 40 watt Aqua sun (or something) bulb (I know it must go) I'm thinking of replacing it with AquariumPlants.com Largest online sales / service site for the live aquarium plants community. the 10,000K 110watt bulb I'd think
- 1 banana plant that is doing alright currently.

I know I will need CO2 but at what point do I need to start adding it? I know this will depend on what i'd like to add

Ground cover:
I'd like to have several different kinds if possible:
- Fissidens zippelianus 
- Four leaf clover
- Micro Sward

Back Wall Cover:
- Peacock moss

Plants I want in the tank:
-Flame Moss (eventually)
-Amazon sward
-Java fern
-Tiger Lotus
-others I find along my travels

What are your suggestions for me? I know the tank needs to cycle before I start to put plants in, and i've read around quite a bit on this site. What I'm not so sure about is the substrate. I dont think flourite sounds too good to me, it just sounds to messy, I'd like it eventually to all sit under some black sand... Suggestions are more then welcome.. (I think i put this in the wrong place now that i look where it's at. Sorry!)


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## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

Welcome to APC!!!

If you put 110 watts of light over your 55G you do *not* have to use CO2. I have a similar setup in which I dose Excel, and one with CO2. The CO2 tank has a bit faster growth but the Excel tank does just fine, too. Blyxa grows well in the Excel tank as does downoi although the downoi's growth rate is quite slow.

You do not need to cycle a planted tank. Plant it heavily and it requires no cycling time as the plants will take up any available ammonia. A "heavily planted" tank has about 75% of its footprint covered with plants.

I'm pretty sure that you are aware that shrimp and cichlids are not a good mix from the shrimp's perspective. You will need a *lot* of cover for any shrimp babies to survive. Cichlids in particular will eat anything that fits in their mouths (as do many other fish but cichlids tend to be expert hunters).

A lot of people would disagree with this but my observation is that unless you are growing a handful of plants that require soft water (in which case I would recommend ADA Aquasoil) it doesn't matter much what substrate you use in a tank **as long as you add fertilizer to the water column**. I have Eco-complete, sand, and fine gravel tanks along with a new Aquasoil tank. I find no difference in plant growth. My recommendation is that you use whatever substrate you would like to look at.

I would recommend that you check out Compact Fluorescent Lighting Kits for a light kit and build your own light if you are at all handy at such things. They come with the best reflectors on the market and you get easy to follow instructions. Even I can build a light from their kits!

I also recommend that you decide on a fertilization scheme before you get your plants. Some people use the Seachem product line and add ferts according to their directions. Many people use EI, some people use PPS (I have done both) and there are other regimens, too. You can find info on the fertilization subform about EI and PPS. If you choose to use one of those regimens you can buy fertilizer cheaply from Aquarium Plants, Aquatic Plants, Planted Aquariums, and Aquarium Plant Fertilizer.

When you first start your tank you should probably put in a lot of fast growing stem plants to keep from having algae problems. It is common for a newly setup tank to have an outbreak of brown algae until it settles down, but fast growing stem plants help prevent other algae problems. You can remove them after your tank settles down and replace them with other plants. Fast growing stem plants are listed as "easy" or "very easy" to grow in the plant finder. You can often get large quantities of them very inexpensively in the Buy and Sell subforum.

Hope some of this helps.  Enjoy planning and starting up your tank!


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Thank you, i'm glad to be here!

When you say fertalizing the water column how do you do this? I have heard about it but yet to read how it's done.

The chilid idea can go out the window at any second, it's just a speculation as of now. I'm looking for "intresting" fish, and other things in the tank. But i like the look of shrimp along a nice green plush substrate. This also brings in the question, is it possible to have 2 or more different substrate covers? Or will one out compete another and cause a problem?

How come Compact Flourcent lights instead of the T12 ones? I'm just wondering not trying to agrue  If they are better but I can get by with the T12 I will save up and put together a nice DIY setup for my tank. The only think i'm unsure of is, the T12 VHO 10,000K bulbs bright enough for me to be able to have some mosses (listed above) and other plants in my tank? Or better yet, what should not look at because i'll need to up my lighting a bunch.

I'd like to try to get some stuff planted and fish in the tank semi soon because right now having all the stuff and nothing going through it isnt any fun, and I'd like to get rid of the eyesore. What kind of plants are "fast growing" that'd help with the initial ammonia spike?

Any ideas on how to set up the XP3? Does anyone on the board use it? And if so spray bar? Or the "jet discharge thing"?

Where is a good place to look online for substrates? I've been looking at aqua essentials online but they are not based in the US so that isnt going to work for me, where is a good place to get my substrate (i dont think local LFS have anything but rocks at the store) Things i'm looking at: 
ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia 
Seachem Onyx Sand

Do i need to test my water before i choose a substrate or how does that go?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Welcome to apc. Here's some links which you should find useful:
DFW Aquatic Plant Club Articles-- Beginner Basics: Introduction
Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-to-aquarium-plants/14684-new-tank-set-up-parts-1-a.html
http://http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/science-of-fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Ok, so I have read a few of the links already today, and i did read your post bert about the planting as well as setting the substrate up. So for now i just have a few questions. 
Having a few degrees of GH is a good thing? What about KH? 
-As i understand GH is my intermediate nutrence so this is desirable in small amounts (right?)
-KH Is the bicarboniate ions and will help buffer my water. So again some is ok i assume?

And I've looked into getting a CO2 tank from a local welding supply co. But what i dont understand is the regulator. Could i use something like This? Or Do i need the expensive one like This I understand that has a monitor to help control the CO2 only when needed, but still 165$ is a lot. But i'm open to everyones opinion.

I'm thinking about eco complete as a substrate. I'll probably go with that alone, even though i do enjoy the look of the tahetian moon sand.

Also i know canister filters arnt really needed, but i was thinking if i made an "overflow" box on the back where i could stick the intake, i could let the moss wall on the back build up and grow around it (as long as the "teeth on the top" are open, and then just use the discharge on the end... I'm just not sure how yet.

That's about it for now, more reading to do for me.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> -As i understand GH is my intermediate nutrence so this is desirable in small amounts (right?)


GH refers to 'general hardness', and is a measure of Ca and Mg in your water. While there is debate over how much is needed, plants do require these ions for proper growth. A 4:1 ratio is generally considered desirable.



> KH Is the bicarboniate ions and will help buffer my water. So again some is ok i assume?


Not bicarbonate, but carbonates. Again, as with most everything in this hobby, how much you need is debatable, but, imo, yes, you do need some kh levels.

The vast majority of aquatic plants can grow in very varied waters, in terms of gh and kh. Some plants do require 'soft water', otherwise, this is not much of an issue, as long as you meet all the plants nutrient needs.

As far as CO2 regulators, you do not need to have one with pH controller, unless you want to. If you go the cheaper route, you will also need to purchase a needle valve and perhaps an adapter to fit it to the regulator. The basic regulators will not allow you to fine tune the gas flow sufficiently for use in aquaria, so the needle valve is needed. Rex Grigg's site also has regulators, needle valves, etc which he sells. You can choose to buy the pieces individually and you will save some money ($20-$30) for a basic setup or you can go the 'all-in-one' route and save the headaches. It's your call. Here's another link which you might find helpful: Affordable Pressurized CO2

Regarding filters, the XP3 you have will work fine for that tank. Possible problems with overflow filters is de-gassing. You will need to use more CO2 to maintain proper levels.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hi,

I noticed you're willing to spend the $$ for EcoComplete substrate (and even list the ADA substrate as a possibility), but don't want to change your light fixture. I'd switch those budget items and put the lighting at a higher priority than the substrate. Just my 2 cents.

Also, while I'm not the best on electrical fixture knowledge, I don't believe its safe to run a 110w bulb (the 10,000K one you mention) in a fixture made for a single T12 bulb (it probably won't even work, and could be a fire hazard if it did). Your ballast is probably only rated for 32w T8's, or 40w T12's, etc. See if you can read the rating through the ventiliation slits in the enclosure. 

If you have a Lesco supply place near you, Soilmaster Select (an alternative to Onyx or EcoComplete) is only $16 for 50 lbs - and folks seem to have very good results with it. It does come in "charcoal" which is kind of a light matte black with a few flecks of the red colored product in it, which I think looks great. I just re-did a 30 g with a soil underlayer covered by Soilmaster Select. You'll find a LOT of information about it if you search on that name in the Science of Substrates forum area. Also, Black Beauty blasting grit is a nice color, and less expensive. 

Dosing the water column simply means adding fertilizers directly into the water via powdered chemicals (usually mixed into small amt of water) or liquid preparations. The fertilizers are in contact with leaves and stems of the plants (except anubias, java ferns, etc) and not really the roots (diffusion into the substrate is minimal). The term just distinguishes those fertilizers added to the water, as opposed to those put in the substrate - either via the makeup of the substrate itself, or root-tab suplements, etc. Usually its best to introduce water column ferts into a flow of water, like the filter output, in order to get it dispersed quickly.

You can certainly grow more than one foreground plant at once. Sometimes, they're even interspersed, such as riccia in hairgrass, glosso with hairgrass, etc. Personally, I'm not a fan of that, but some folks like it. I've had an area of glosso next to an area of hairgrass, and that looked nice, sort of a two-tiered foreground, until, yes, the hairgrass invaded the glosso. Usually a single kind of foreground draws the eye better, just as larger areas of a single plant type, grouped near other areas of a single plant type generally are preferred, as opposed to interspersing 2 stems of plant A, then 2 stemsof plant B, then two of plant A again. 

Satirica reccomended/linked to AH Supply. I'd second that vote. They have great products at a reasonable price. I'd put more of your budget into lighting, you'll be happy you did in the long run. Besides, with enough plants, you barely notice the substrate, LOL!

-Jane


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Hello, 

One other point about the bulb (URI 10000k - 110w) you gave the link for. These bulbs are made for use in special fixtures which are called Very High Output; they are designed to OVERDRIVE a bulb to give higher watts from the bulb. If you put this in a N.O., (Normal Output) fixture you will not have 110 watts of light; you will have what your N.O., ballast are made to put out, probably still 40 watts.

I second, and third the other recommendations already made to you regarding look at your lighting as a more fundamental and essential component of your total system. In the long run it will make a far bigger difference in your success, or lack of, in growing an aquatic jungle.

I've set up several tanks and sometimes I think the planning is more than half the fun. Take your time making choices and decisions. Most planted tank veterans can give you list of wrong equiptment purchased now laying unused and dollars wasted.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Thank you for your replies everyone! I'll address the replies individually where approperate:

Bert - Thank you for the link, I will be checking it out and reading intensly again. When you say "Soft water" does that mean low #'s of GH, and KH? I will look at Rex Grigg's Site and see what I can figure out. What i defentally need is a primary regulator (connects to tank and dropps pressure) and then a needle valve inline, so i can do fine adjustments right? If that's all set Its one more piece i've figured out. 

Jane - I dont believe I have a Lesco around. Can you tell me what kind of store this is? Is it like a Home Depot or something? And you suggest soilmaster select? My only question is, will this stay at the bottom of the aquarium, like with the EcoComplete. The only reason i went this route is because it has nutrience in it and i've read real good reviews. But i'm always open to new ideas.

With the soilmaster do you need to fertalize the soil? Or do you end up with water column dosing only? Now that i think of the bottom of my tank, i'm not sure i want a bunch of interwoven plants for my substrate cover, so i'll probably stick with just one. 

Mud, Jane, Bert - Your all probably right. I couldnt find the ballast for my fixture through the slits but i did take the starter out and looked at it, and it was a 13, 20, 40 watt starter. I dont think this fixture has it in it to run a VHO bulb. So now i'm off to do the looking around for DIY kits and such. What type of bulbs would you suggest to go over a 55gal? Would you say something like 4x40 watt or? I'll probably end up ordering a DIY kit, but even then that will be an expendature. I'm not opposed to spending some money, but I have to first justify it. Where do you shop for your DIY kits? I saw plans on here i believe for building your own hood out of wood, this my dad and i could do. 

Thanks for all your help thus far. I just need to find out where i can sell this old fixture, and then use some of that $ for my new one.


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## AMP (Nov 11, 2006)

> I don't think fluorite sounds too good to me, it just sounds to messy, I'd like it eventually to all sit under some black sand...


Welcome to the Club My Friend, You picked a great place to be  Anyway on the Fluorite issue, Preparation is the key to using this stuff with minimal cloudiness. I had a Link that explained how to prepare it if you so choose to go this route.

Take those 20 pound bags, I have a 55 as yours, I used 40lbs with Pee gravel, anyway get a Strainer, one for spaghetti will suffice, open the bag pour some in and rinse it, don't mix it up in the strainer , Just rinse. keep rinsing until the Muck disappear.

Save the muck if you have house plants and feed them it Woo woo  boy is it a nice fert.

Spread it out on some old towels, let it dry and add it to the tank. Took me a half hr to rinse 40 lbs.

I Have to second and third everyones response to lighting, Get the lighting, then the CO2 in the long run you will be glad you did. I went with the ORBIT 4x65 PC's and a Timer to adjust the maximum lighting needed for what I have for now.

Third, read , read , and read LOL... I hope to turn this whole set up around in a month or two to look like those published here.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

So with the rinsing of the flourite you'll get the heavy stuff? I just picture all of it running through the strainer...

I just called my water dept to enquire about the water and here is what i got. (All results are on the "raw" water, except pH which is on treated to the house water)

pH - 7.0 - 8.0 After treatment. Raw it's about 5.3
KH - 35.7milligrams per liter (he said it was soft)
GH - i didnt get one number he broke all the components down
magnesium - 2.71milligrams per liter
manganese - 0.021milligrams per liter 
iron - .01milligrams per liter
calcium - 9.82milligrams per liter

Now to me, it seems everything is pretty low... Which would say i need to ??? Treat my water? ¿¿¿ i'm confused. I know i will need a test kit, probably a master test kit, but for now what does this show?

Also, i was poking around ebay looking for lights, and i happend to look up just power compacts and i came across this Full setup including lights Other then the fact it comes with Antic lights as well, (which i dont need) would something like that work? And should i be looking for that many watts?


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Ok, so i've read most of those guides, and looked into fixtures, and so far, i'm looking at the coralife or the one i posted above. Either way it's going to be a nice expendature, so i'm going to have to hold off shortly. But i will get it!


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hi again,

I just noticed you're in R.I. - I used to live in Bristol, south of Providence. If you can, try to come to meetings of the NE APS - New England Aquatic Plant Society. You'll get a lot of good info, as well as a chance to get some plant clippings. Our next meeting will be at Fish Frenzy near Springfield, MA. I know its a bit of a hike for you, but if you are able to make it, its a DEMONSTRATION of a tank setup! Its a week from tomorrow.

Here's the club website:
Mission | New England Aquatic Plant Society

And this is our club's forum here on APC:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-england-aquatic-plant-society/

I think the FIRST thing is to decide if you want to go a High Tech or Low Tech route. If budget is a major concern, the low tech methods are certainly cheaper! Your biggest investment will be the lighting and tank itself. Check out the APC forum "El Natural" to learn more about low tech methods. I'm a devotee myself, and think that very, very pleasing results can be obtained using a soil underlayer w/o CO2. I've just done a complete overhaul of my 30 gal, with a topsoil layer covered by Soilmaster Select. BTW, Lesco is a store for those who maintain large grounds such as baseball fields, golf courses, etc. Soilmaster Select is a high fired clay product. Its a bit lighter weight than Flourite until its thoroughly colonized by bacteria, and doesn't have the "pre-packed" bacteria and nutrients of EcoComplete, but with a soil underlayer, I don't need that. The Lesco in Worcester does have the Charcoal color of it. A fellow NE APS member also has access to the Black Beauty blasting sand.

I've gotten good used equipment from Craig's List (I've looked on the Boston and Worcester ones, there's a Providence one too). Many folks get "into" the aquarium hobby, make a big investment in equipment, and then just as quickly get out of it. You'll find a LOT of marine setups for sale, and some folks will want more than 50% of what they paid for the stuff, but if you keep looking, you may find a good setup. Also, the BAS holds auctions at each meeting (the next one is this coming Monday) and the Annual Auction was postponed from last fall, and will probably be held in March. Lots of used equipment gets auctioned off.

I'd say, start with LOTs and LOTs of reading and research. If you choose to go the "El Natural" route, and can position your tank near a window, you may not even need to upgrade the light fixture.

Get an idea of the kinds of methods that are out there, and find one that appeals to you. Low Tech, Moderate Tech w/ DIY CO2, High Tech w/ CO2 and additional ferts, etc.

I agree with the poster who said planning is half the fun!
-Jane

PS - if you can get up to the Worcester area, or near Rt. 146 and the Northbridge "turnpike", I can give you a ride to the NE APS meeting near Springfield. I think it would be a great experience for you to watch the demo.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Thanks for all the help so far everyone. I have been working on a hood all week and i think when i'm done it'll be a plesent add on to my tank. I'll have pictures of the whole process up when it's finished i think. 

But now i have to deal with the soil. I have found jolly gardner brand, but in both composed manuer and top soil (i think it's top soil, i'll recheck). But i assume i dont want the compost because that can cause problems. So how many lbs of this will i need? I can go get it and start to age it asap, so that it's ready soon. 

Also, Black Beauty Blasting Sand, is that for the top of the soil? I assume i could use anything here if i did desire? Such as moon sand or the liking. My only question is. What should the total depth be? 1" or 1" of soil and 1" of gravel or equivalant top? Again i've confused myself!


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Ummm ok? So i guess no ideas. humph. Total depth of 2" (1" rock or other top layer, and 1" soil) or 1" (1/2" of each)?? Also when i do the "jar test" what am i looking for?


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## blyxa (Jan 1, 2007)

*Danios and Cichlids*

Do not put small fish in with cichlids. The smaller fish will either be eaten or be to scared to come out. The pea puffer will be just fine; they are feisty little devils and mine terrorizes my betta.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Cool, but any advice on the soil as well? I'm going to go get about 5 bags now, and try to lay it out to start to dry and what knot. IDK how big each bag is, but idk i may be buying more. Also another thing that has me bidazzled is do i put rocks on top?? This whole NPT thing isnt as easy as it'd seem.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

blyxa said:


> Do not put small fish in with cichlids. The smaller fish will either be eaten or be to scared to come out. The pea puffer will be just fine; they are feisty little devils and mine terrorizes my betta.


That totally depends on what the 'Electric Blue Cichlids' are! Don't tar every cichlid with that brush, _Pelvicachromis_ aren't going to polish off his danios and if he's keeps shell dwellers, the danios may well grow bigger than them!

However having said that, what's usually known as 'Electric Blue Cichlids' over here are _Sciaenochromis _(Formally _Haplochromis_)_ ahli_. They are mouthbreeders from Lake Malawi and not a good idea with Danios. They should ideally be kept in a large tank with other mouthbrooders of similar temperaments. You'll also need to make sure the water stays alkaline with minimal pollutants or they will die quickly.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

i brueshed the Cichlid's off early on. I believe Jane gave me the advice that if i were to ever get shrimp, they would be a very quick and tastey treat to a cichlid if it ever decided to get to the point. So that's out. Now it's going to be mostly "cool fish" you know... i'm just not sure what so much.

But before i do anything the substrate has to be put in... NPT'ers out there, help!


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## blyxa (Jan 1, 2007)

Most Electric Blue Cichlids get big enough to eat danios and I will grant you some don't but getting one from a LFS doesn't guarantee that it will be a small variety. And someone new to the fish so be forewarned about the possible buffet awaiting it. I'm not brushing them off so soon. I plan to get a German Blue Ram and add it to a tank with a few danios.


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## blyxa (Jan 1, 2007)

*Substrate and "Cool" fish*

Okay for substrate, I use ADA Aquasoil as I have a SE Asian biotope. They are very good at blending the right nutrients for certain areas. So if you use it find where your plants originate and use that as a guide. Or another good choice is Eco-Complete Planted substrate and that can be found at your LFS and is slightly cheaper.

For fish, I love Gouramis and with your sized tank you can get quite a few. They are generally well-tempered and extremely colorful. I am going to be getting some Dwarf Honeys, but Flames and Powdered Blues are nice. You could also consider a German Ram (Gold or Blue), they only get to about 2-3 inches and are beautiful.

Good Luck!


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Muirner said:


> Also, Black Beauty Blasting Sand, is that for the top of the soil? I assume i could use anything here if i did desire? Such as moon sand or the liking. My only question is. What should the total depth be? 1" or 1" of soil and 1" of gravel or equivalant top? Again i've confused myself!


For the soil layer use about 1". The top layer can be 1 to 2" and you can use what you like the look of, such as the moon sand, eco complete, pool sand, etc. Just make sure you'll be able to plant in the top layer easily and that it will hold the plants down. Most gravel is too coarse and is hard to plant in. I like the size and color of Eco complete but a lot of people prefer sand.

I normally put in the soil layer and pat it down. Then I add about 1" of the top substrate, plant the plants and then add more of the top substrate as needed. When planting some rooted plants it can be hard not to get the substrate layers mixed up and its easiest just to add more of the top layer of substrate to keep things neat.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

pH - 7.0 - 8.0 After treatment. Raw it's about 5.3
KH - 35.7milligrams per liter (he said it was soft)
GH - i didnt get one number he broke all the components down
magnesium - 2.71milligrams per liter
manganese - 0.021milligrams per liter 
iron - .01milligrams per liter
calcium - 9.82milligrams per liter

What does that say about my water if i can ask? I know sense i'm going el Natural, that i'll probably be staying away from ferts but any advice on those results of the water test.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

Muirner said:


> Ummm ok? So i guess no ideas. humph. Total depth of 2" (1" rock or other top layer, and 1" soil) or 1" (1/2" of each)??


you should look for a average substrate depth of ~3". the average depth will allow you to plant all sorts of plants sufficiently in all sorts of substrate, including flourite


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Hood is built, soil is about 2 days out from being fully cured. Now it's time to begin the planning. I have a few questions any that are answered would be great!

1) When i put the jolly gardner in there, along with the soilmaster select, and begin to fill it, it's suggested that i use something with a very low flow rate. Are we talking like air hose? Also if so, how do you set up the syphon?

2) I will use biomax rings in the filter (xp3) to add additional benificial bio media. My question is. If i soke the rings in water from my established guppy tank can i start the bio media bacteria growth early?

3) Do i need to cycle this tank? I hear with soil on the bottom it will not need to cycle. I'll have results of my soil testing in the next day or two on here. i've only pulled the test results as of now 3 times.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

If using a soil underlayer, 3" is rather too deep - it risks promoting anoxic pockets. 1" of soil, 1" of gravel/coarse sand. If you've got a lot of experience with soil underlayers, and have found a dependable source, perhaps try 3", or even just 3" in a terraced area for deeper rooting plants, but I've had even large-bulbed plants do fine with a rather shallow substrate. Some of the bulb is exposed, but they grow well. 


I usually dampen the soil, then gently layer the gravel/sand top layer over it.

With the water - You just have to go VERY slowly for the first few inches of water addition. I do use an airline tube! And, I put the outflow on a piece of filter media or sponge to keep it gentle. Yeah, that's a little over the top, but once I blasted the layers, and what a mess! I put a bucket with the water up on a stool (perhaps a ladder?) and let it siphon out with the airline tubing. An office supply clip can keep the tubing secured to both the bucket and the tank rim. Don't clip directly on the tubing or it will stop the flow. I thread it through the "ears". Then, go do something else for awhile. I will top off the bucket from which the water's siphoning, too, until I've got about 2" of water over the substrate. It percolates in nice and slow, and, IMO, gives the soil and gravel time to release all the air pockets that could otherwise be trapped.

Then, I get something like long-tined plastic fork, or long handled tweezers. I poke the substrate vertically, to release air pockets. You don't have go go wild about it, but 1 poke for every 3-4" sq inches is good. 

Then, you can put in a plate or plastic lid, etc and gently pour water in ONTO the flat thing, to break the force of the water. After the depth is about 5", I'll siphon a much faster flow into a bowl - the overflow will dissipate sideways.

I know its a bit of work, but its a long term setup, so I think its worth it.

Sorry I wasn't answering IN the thread earlier, but I got/responded to your PM's.
-Jane


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

With the use of a soil underlayer, you'll already have lots of bacterial colonies at work! I'll usually add fish the next day after setting up an NPT. There will be a lot of outgassing (bubbles on everything) from the tap water, and this can distress fish, so I generally give it 24 hrs to come up to temp, and test pH, Nitrites, Nitrates, etc. 

Soaking the media in an established tank is a good idea, and if the established tank is healthy, it couldn't hurt. 

Is this a canister, or HOB filter? The theory behind NPT is that the plants act as the biological filter. Plants preferentially take up ammonia. Using a lot of "bio media" will actually compete with the plants. Most NPTs will use a filter for just mechanical filtering and water movement. 

-Jane


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

it's a cannister filter. a XP3. I had it from my previous setup and well it's only been used for about 2 months. 

I will actually pull that biomedia out, because it seems more harmful then helpful... I will have sponges in the bottom basket, and i have read that using polyfill (like pillow stuffing) in the baskets will help polish the water? I'm willing to do that too. Of course i'll have the course sponges in the bottom, but other then that i'll have just water scrubbers.

Also will it be harmful to the plants if i dont have the fish in there right away? And how many fish would you say I'll need to add. Of course i know this depends on size, type ect. But for now i'm looking at schooling fish, i'm not sure what kind and i'm trying to look for some different looking fish... BUT i dont want to have fish that are crossbreading "mutts". (i use the term crossbreading loosly there, just to mean different fishes mixing and matching)

But i did find at my local PetSmart, they sell Male fish and Female fish separatly, so maybe if I minimize the female guppies in the tank i can be ok? But I would like to have some breading going on. For now I like the look of Bleeding Heart something or others, Cardnal Tetras, Zibra Dannos, and some others.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Well, once its established, the macros for an NPT mostly come from us adding fish food, and the fish eating, then excreting. You don't HAVE to add fish immediately, but I wouldn't go for more than two weeks without SOMEthing in there, even if its just a few ramshorn snails, who will gladly eat a few flakes of fishfood. This will help keep the bacterial diversity going. Or, if you KNOW there will be something you're certainly going to get, like corydorus cats, you can put them in before making the decision about your midwater fish. 

I know what you mean about "mixing". At the last BAS meeting, I couldn't resist a group of 6 of those little blue eyed rainbowfish, the M. furcata, with the buttercup yellow fin edges. They're kinda hanging out with the harlequin rasboras in a mixed group, rather than staying in their own discreet group. And, the rasboras are now much more lax about schooling, since the M. furcatas really dont' school, but stay in a loosy-goosy group. Oh well. 

What polyfill are you meaning? The one similar to filter floss? I'd go with the filter floss intended for aquariums. If you're meaning the stuff like sponge, I've gotten that on occasion (I have a few HOB filters that I just custom cut a block of the large spongy stuff for mechanical filtration). Be VERY careful of the "outgassing" of this stuff. It was not intended for aquarium use, and some of the by-products of the polymerization process are pretty nasty. I always wash it thoroughly in hot water, let it sit, wash throroughly again, repeat at least a dozen times. Then, I soak it in an acidic bath (white vinegar 1:1 with water) for several days, then soak it in a basic bath (baking soda, 1 tsp/quart) for several days. Remember, the aquarium is a closed environment, and if there are noxious chemicals leaching out of the sponge, they will get to pretty high concentrations in the tank, and stay in there, too. I know it may be overkill, but finally I soak it in siphoned-off water from an established tank, in case there's any bacteria or enzymes which will break down something in the poly sponge, they can do it before it gets into a tank. And yes, at any given time, I've got a few buckets of projects cluttering up the little 1/2 bath, LOL! But, once I've "seasoned" a custom-cut block of sponge for a HOB filter, I use it for YEARS.

Yes, I'd take the biological filter material out, the mechanical should be fine. 

In terms of the plants, PLANT DENSELY! I can't emphasize that enough. Even if its something you're planning on replacing later, its really critical for an El Natural type tank. There will be enough nutrient spike released into the water from a soil underlayer for the first several weeks, but if those nutrients aren't used up, its an invitation to algae. I think that getting lots of plants in there initially is far more important than lots of fish. 

Hope this helps!
-Jane


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Jane - Thank you for all of the help you have given me over the setup time of this tank. You've been great. I will try to stop by PetSmart to check out what i can look for in terms of snails and such, but to be honest, I just got a 25 dollar gift card in the mail from them and that will go twards my fish collection. I also have picked up a dwarf puffer that will make his way into the tank (i hope to find a male at PetSmart, i have a female currently). He is a good snail killer and enjoys his bloodworms. 

When you say corey cats, are those like bottom feeders? I'm maybe thinking of some species of shrimp in the future with this tank, such as maybe Cherry Reds, maybe ghost. I'd love Crystal Reds, but they are a lil pricey for me for now. I dont wanna lose this option. BUT, i do need a bottom feeder i do understand this. I guess i'm going to have to look more.

That sounds like a nice loose school though Jane, I dont mind that, but i dont want to end up spending a good amount of money on endlers and then having them mix with guppies, that'd leave me with a real bad taste in my mouth ya know. Mixed schools is ok, Mixed schools interbreading, negative.

The polyfill i read somewhere. I cant remember where. Someone said that if you went to walmart and picked up the polyfill used in pillows that they use that for their filters. But, i do see what your saying. I wish i could find that source so i could see what their results were. I dont want to kill an entire tank.

As far as planting goes, I have to transfer money into my paypal account so that I can pay that way instead of using a CC. I'll be making that thread in the For sale and trade forum soon, hopefully i can find a good # of plants from a smaller # of people. AND i'll have to go to those meetings and see what it's all about. I cant remember, but when is the next one? I think it's in my PM box, but It's up by where my internship used to be so i'd be willing to drive up, it'd be fun.

Everyone else thank you as well, every opinion helps make this closer to done.


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## fredyk (Jun 21, 2004)

You might just post, "I'll take your extra cuttings" in swap forum. You'll get lots of responses and plants. It's a little cold to ship plants, so I throw away stuff.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Thanks fredyk! I'll be looking into that. As of now I found someone who's offering a good deal on plants, and I'm HOPING, that they come in on the 16th. About 100 stems right now. Including a 3x3" matt of HC, and a 5x5 of spiky moss


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Any suggestions to how i should decide on driftwood? I have looked around, and even called a few places, but i cant seem to figure out what i would want. I wish i could take my tank to the stores and fit the wood in there... Any advice? Or do you find no matter what you get it can fit?


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