# PPS-Classic CSM+B dosing question



## Freshwater (Oct 22, 2007)

*- Moved from Sub-forum -* (I think I posted in the wrong place)

Hi all,

I'm not sure I am dosing my micro's correct. I am using the PPS-Classic method, and am spending a good amount of energy on understanding what my plants require. But most, if not all the information is detailed for macro dosing.

A quick run down on my tank.

144 watts 4.5 WPG
Giesmann AquaFlora x 2 / midday x 2 and / Current 10k / Current pink

Co2 approx 20-25 %
Sub - Eco Complete
Photo period 6 hrs.
Tank volume 32 gallons

CSM+B mixed as per PPS calculator

Daily addition of 3 ml's of CSM+B mix + 1 ml of SeaChem Iron. I started adding the Iron due to the fact I am not getting the results I am looking for.

Water parameters - (as of Sunday)

GH - 6.0
PH - 6.4
K.H. - 4.2
No3 - 7
Po4 - 1.0
Ca2 - 40
MG - 2 (calculated)

Am I adding enough TE mix? Is 3 ml's a day correct? With taking into account my light level?

I have a bunch of non-green plants that are turning green (not there normal red)

Ludwegia Senegalensis
Nesea Sp. Red
Alternanthera Reineckii
Cabomba Furcata

Green plants -

Tonina Belem
Eleo. Belem
Erio's and such

My previous tank was a 29 gallon at 3.3 WPG PPS-Pro tank, and very successful...though I didn't have red plants then.

This is the tank (I've added plants since this picture was taken. Picture taken day after tank setup) (about a month ago).



Have I missed something? My parameters are almost where I want them, still needs some tweaking.

Any advice would be great...


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Freshwater said:


> Am I adding enough TE mix? Is 3 ml's a day correct? With taking into account my light level?


 Plenty

Q. Why didn't you select PPS-Pro after it worked for you already with the previous aquarium?


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## Freshwater (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Edward!

Thank you for responding. 

I had good success using PPS-Pro, but over time I found that I had a build up of Macro nutrients (No3/Po4). Partially my own fault for increasing my dosage levels when I increased my light and Co2. That, and I now grow more demanding/difficult plants. 

I am also trying to understand a little better what my plants need to grow well. More of a "quality" of growth, not "rate" of growth. I have looked up the preferred parameters for my more needy plants, and put together a "target" set of parameters to aim for. 

GH - 4
PH - 6.5
No3 - 10-15
Po4 - 2-3
KH - 3

Without using buffers... now I do not know if all the levels are attainable simply through dosing PPS, and not using discus buffer or equivalent. I do understand that red plants will be red, and non-red plants can only be "stressed" to red. (did that come out right?) The PPS system is one of the few dosing methods I have seen that gives you the ability to reduce certain nutrients easily (NF, PF, SS, MG). Oh, and I just don't like dosing dry fert's ;-)

It's something I am giving a good honest try with. Will it be the one I stick with? Not sure, but PPS-Pro worked very well for me, I just wanted the additional control over individual nutrients. I will most likely come up with some type of hybrid system that combines the best of what I have learned about nutrient uptake in a planted tank. Since starting the PPS system I have a much broader understanding of whats going on with the plants needs. 

I appreciate you making it available to us.

Good to see you around again...Thank you 

Todd


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## Freshwater (Oct 22, 2007)

And if I still have your ear Edward,

I have another question regarding water changes and PPS. I am noticing the need for water changes to bring down my GH and KH levels. I am doing 10 gallon RO change weekly (for the last 3 weeks.) As I notice the water hardness creeping back up.

When entering values into the calculator, I would think I should use my pre-water change levels. But then, what about my levels after the water change? This week was easy, the calculator spit out "dose 18 ml's of NF". Seeing as I just did a water change I substituted "SS" to replace some of the Nitrate I had just removed (more or less to "reconstitute the R.O."). I will then go back to "NF" for the remainder of the week.

Pre-water change values -

GH - 11.0
PH - 6.6
No3 - 20
Po4 - 1.0
KH - 7.4
CA - 60
MG - 11

Post water change values - (The next day, 20hrs after change and initial dosing)

GH - 7.0 (Better, aiming for 4 though)
PH - 6.6
No3 - 10
Po4 - 1.0
KH - 4.5 (Better, aiming for <4.0)
CA - 40
MG - 6

Thank you

Todd


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

You will enjoy it once you get this far with PPS systems. About this new aquarium now, we need to find the weakest link and build the system on top of it. It looks like it is your substrate because it is leaking Ca, Mg and KH. So you will need to find the leak rate and correct it with periodic water changes in order to maintain the Ca, Mg and KH levels consistent. On top of this you create your dosing strategy. Unavoidable water changes are nothing to be happy about but then the benefit is less work with dosing accuracy. 

Again, you have to do water changes to maintain Ca, Mg and KH consistent because of the substrate leak. This must be done periodically or continuously.

Do water testing before water changes and use the calculator to find what to dose next. This routine will get more and more accurate with time and in few months you will already know without the calculator what the next dose is. Later, no testing necessary.

I noticed your pH does not change though KH changes rapidly. This indicates a presence of CO2-pH controller. If you have one, don't use it. You can not use it on KH variable water. The reason is because KH changes with time, the controller keeps chasing the same adjusted pH which in return dumps variable amount of CO2 into the aquarium. There is nothing worse then inconsistent CO2 levels. Simply run CO2 via a needle valve adjusted to 1 bubble per second or so and forget about it. Also, your substrate leak rate is pH dependent, less CO2 means less leakage and fewer problems.


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## Freshwater (Oct 22, 2007)

Thank you Edward,

Hmm... you mention some good points.

The substrate is Eco Complete, 80% of it is over a year old-ish... When I changed over to this tank I added two more additional bags of "new" Eco Complete. There is also a small mount of Red Flourite mixed in that I was unable to remove. I am doubtful that the Eco is the culprit but I would like someone more knowledgeable to back me up on that.

I do however think I might know where the source could be,



The rocks have been tested with an Acidic mixture (I think it was vinegar, but not sure... I was not the one doing it) and no bubbling formed on the surface. I am a member of the Southern California Aquatic Plant Enthusiasts "SCAPE", and many of us are using these rocks. I have not heard a problem, but will check with some of the others. I am probably watching my water parameters closer than the others though.

Any thoughts on this? I still have more of these rocks un-used sitting outside. Maybe I can test them out. Maybe soak them in a known neutral water (RO) for a couple weeks and test the water?

I take it, that with this happening i do not need to worry about not adding CaSo4.



> Do water testing before water changes and use the calculator to find what to dose next. This routine will get more and more accurate with time and in few months you will already know without the calculator what the next dose is. Later, no testing necessary.


That is what I am hoping for!



> I noticed your pH does not change though KH changes rapidly. This indicates a presence of CO2-pH controller. If you have one, don't use it. You can not use it on KH variable water.


Deeper into the rabbit's hole so to speak... I am not using a PH controller at this time. I do however use a solenoid valve. Co2 on an hour before lights, and off a half hour before lights out. 3+ BPS. This has been on my mind as of late. Several others that I know run Co2 24x7. Could this be one of my issues? I am not familiar with the the subject of KH variable water. Any chance you have any thing I can read on it?



> Do I need to shut off my CO2 at night?
> No. CO2 is available in the water full-time in nature, no reason to change that here. Since we are dosing at a lower level (20 ppm) we have plenty of safety margin. And stable pH and CO2 levels help plants and fish, making it harder on algae.


Is there an article on the KH / PH / Co2 relationship, other than the chart?

I also noticed the PH not swinging up or down with the water changes, could this also be due to the time of day I test? Normally around 7:00 a.m..

Here a a couple of shots of my deficiencies, just some quick hand helds from last night.



The Cabomba Fracata has lost much of it's nice rust color, the tips are growing in green. The Ludweiga Senegalensis, Red Naesea, A. Reinikli have green tips growing out. The base of the plant still holds it's original "red" coloration. That, and my Golden Nasea is slowly hinting towards green, from it's brilliant yellow.



Oh, and if I haven't bored you to death yet, you will love this one...I see you continually telling people they do not need to add additional Iron on top of a good trace mix. If it isn't a good balanced trace...then find one that is (more or less). Well, I got hit with a good case of thread algae, I have read it is from excess FE 

One of these days I will figure it out!

Thanks

Todd


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Todd, are you adding small amount of mg daily? Adding mg may help with your pale growth. I think Edward said that mg unlike calcium is a mobile nutrient and that small daily addition is needed. A lot of folks are also talking about ideal ca to mg ratio and that 4:1 is ideal. The consensus on this is still mixed. But, you do have very high calcium relative to mg. I am not sure if that will paly a role. Btw, you got some awesome bulbs.


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