# Equipment decisions for new large tank



## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Hello everyone,

You may remember me from a previous post (LINKAGE).

I'm now posting again, because the tank that many of us discussed in that thread is now in my possession! We will be installing it within the next couple of months and I'm now starting to gather up all the equipment we will be needing.

We had originally planned the tank to be 86" long, 34" deep and 32" tall. However, only a couple days after obtaining a quote on what the acrylic tank would cost, an offer came up on our local Craigs List. It was for an acrylic tank that was 86" long (important as our in wall stand is already roughed in) however, it was only 28" deep and 30" tall. We couldn't pass it up though, it was in great shape and it was saving us nearly $2500!

So now instead of the over 400 gallon mammoth we were getting into, we are knocked down to around a 300 gallon mammoth. That's ok with me though.

In the other thread we discussed lighting and the majority opinion was clearly to go with Metal Halides. I'd like to stick to that decision, however, after planting some smaller tanks since that discussion I've come to find that I like the look of the bluer MH coupled with some more yellow fluorescent mixed in. My only question related to the lighting is how many watts you guys recommend? I'd like to be able to grow just about anything and we definitely will be having some of the higher light red stem plants (Ludwigia repens & Rotala macrandra). I'm also planning on having a carpet plant of some sort, possibly Glosso. How many watts do you think? How would you split those watts up between the bluer (10,000K) MH and the fluorescent of some type?

My next big question has to do with filtration. We touched on it in the other thread however, I never anticipated having a drilled tank with the one we ordered new. However, this tank that we purchased is drilled in one end. Sure I could block it all off and stick with the canisters, but it's there and I REALLY like the thought of hiding all the equipment in the sump. So I'm looking for ideas and insights on creating as plant/Co2 friendly of a sump as possible. I'd like to minimize Co2 loss as much as I can. I'd love some ideas on this front as it has me pretty stumped.

We'll be building our own Co2 reactors based on some plans I've seen around online. But I need suggestions on pumps and uv sterilizers.

I'm also a little concerned about water circulation. I need to spread ferts and Co2 throughout the tank, but the tank is going to have more peaceful water loving species. The tank is also going to be viewed from both sides and I'd like to avoid an ugly spray bar going down the entire middle of the tank.

Thanks for all your help!!!!

Tony


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You might consider using that drilled hole for an overflow, then build a continuous water change system, where you add a continuous trickle of water in, with the overflow dumping outdoors. It isn't hard to do, and it makes doing big 50% water changes optional. You probably will need to hide a powerhead somewhere in the tank to augment the water circulation, and the filter inlet and outlets can be at opposite ends of the tank to get water flow along the length of the tank.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks for the response Hoppy. I should have clarified, there is an nice overflow built in with four 1 3/4" holes in the bottom (see photo). I have been seriously kicking around the idea of a constant water change system. How would that effect Co2 and Fert dosing though? I don't want to be immediately removing all the goodness I put in the water for the plants. Is the chlorine in a constant water change system so minimal that the dilution removes the danger (even with sensitive fish)? Is there a point to having a constant water change system if I'm going to have to pretty much drain half the tank every week to replant and trim?

While I'm debating implementing the constant water change, I really think I would like to use a sump as well. Just the thought of hiding all the equipment underneath is very tempting. I can run my Co2 reactors, heaters as well as dosing the ferts down below. So if anyone has any Co2 friendly sump designs please feel free to chime in.

Also if anyone with experience with the larger has any ideas what I should be shooting for in light watts, I'd love ideas as well!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The point of a continuous water change system is to avoid having to do weekly big water changes. You only need to change about 10% of the water per day to equal a 50% change per week. You lose a bit of the fertilizers - obviously about 10% per day, but that is trivial compared to what you hope the plants are using. It hasn't affected CO2 at all, as far as I can tell. I use a "whole house" water filter, with a carbon containing filter element, to filter the incoming trickle of water, and have had no chlorine or chloramine problems for the year and a half I have used my system. There is no question that you still do have to occasionally drain off a lot of water for maintenance, but that can be every other week or even longer. And, the water level stays exactly the same at all times, so no topping off for evaporation. I like it!!


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## gnatster (Mar 6, 2004)

You could use the canister filter approach. Just plumb the filter into a drain hole and the return back through a return hole. For the other two holes you can create a closed loop with a pump for a CO2 reactor and any other items you may want like in line heaters and UV. To reduce CO2 loss and keep overflow noise down use a Durso Standpipe. If you have easy access to a water supply and drain T off the closed loop to the drain to waterchanges easy. Another T from the water supply makes refilling a snap.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks for the responses, whatever we do, we are definitely plumbing in drain and refill attachments. Making this setup as easy to care for as possible is priority one. In some ways I still like the thought of the sump because it would be nice to add some water volume to the system. I also considered making the sump almost like a "grow out" tank for plants. Put some substrate in it and hang lighting over it. Then I could place plants in it to grow out before placing in the main tank. Also, I could put trimmings down there to save to give to fellow plant keepers. Being in the main system it would be able to utilize the nutrients and Co2 all the other plants are using.

That being said, I'm extremely intrigued with the constant water change idea. I'd like to pursue that. I did some extensive searching on Google and came up with _nothing_ on how to set one of these systems up. A local fish keeping business told me to use an ice maker but did not elaborate. Hoppy, could you share a basic run down on what it takes to set the constant water change system up?

Thanks again!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...cts/29066-continuous-water-change-system.html is the thread I started when I started the project.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Hi, 

I read a little in your other post and think you should try fast growing stems plants in a small tank first and get that urge over with.

Maybe this is the discus keeper in me talking but I didnt have any luck doing 10%+ water changes per day. Only larger changes 40-60% made a difference. After this experience I would never try continuous water change system.

As far as co2 loss goes maybe eliminate trickle and splashing in the sump. Which will probably go hand in hand with keeping it quiet. I wouldnt dare use canister(s) on this.

I would like to have a tank just like this someday. Good for you keep us posted.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A 11% water change per day gives about a 50% change per week. Of course if you want a 50% change every day or every other day you need to be changing more water per day with a continuous change system. It does "waste" water, but I just use the water for my patio container plants, so there is no waste the way I do it.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Unless you're willing to devote 8 or 10 hours per week to trimming, I'd take Brilliant's advice and try to limit the number of stemmies. I don't follow my own advice with my 180g tank, but I don't mind the time spent trimming since it's one of the only relaxing things I get to do.

If you really insist on growing Rotala macranda you'll need very high light levels, especially if you want it to look good all the way down to the substrate. I have over 3wpg of MH and T-5 and my R. mac only colors up nicely in the top 1/3 of the tank or so. Almost any other stem plant can be succesfully grown with much less light. Ludwigia repens isn't that picky at all. I'd shoot for a total of around 3wpg with a combination of MH and CF/T-5s. I'd then only run the MH's for 4 or 5 hours per day. If you want all the lights to be on for the entire photoperiod I'd shoot for no more than 2wpg total for a tank that size. At that level you'll still need good CO2 and a careful eye on nutrient levels.

If you want a tank that is easy to maintain and you don't mind being slightly limitted on plant species you'd be wise to shoot for the 1.5-1.75 wpg range. Over the long haul you'd enjoy it more, have fewer problems, and be more likely to keep it set up as a planted tank.

Just my two bits....... Advice is generally worth what you pay for it.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks guys. When I made that first post, I'd never planted a tank at all. Since then, I've planted two 55 gallon tanks and have learned a lot about ferts and Co2. Both planted 55's I have up right now are growing well and the plants in them will be going into this tank when it's setup. That being said, since that last post (with the experience I just mentioned) I have decided to go with _less_ stemmies. Although, I can't help... I still want some! 

Forget the R. Mac. No reason to ask for severe maintenance and algae episodes for just one plant when there are so many nice plants out there.

Let me tell you what I really want... and you guys let me know if I can get away with the 1.75 to 2 wpg or of I need to go higher. I'm willing to make sacrifices but here's what I'd like. Riccia covered rocks and driftwood. A ground cover of some sort (possibly HC, Glosso or even Hairgrass or combination). I'd like to get micranthemum umbrosum to look bushy and not like a bunch of little stemmies stretching for the sky. I know the crypts, anubias, and swords would do fine, but these are the plants I'm really wondering about.

Thanks!!!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, I'd say go with a combination approach that will let you easily adjust light levels. A few big MH's can provide the majority of the plant's needs. 250W x 3 = 750 W = 2.5 wpg, assuming a 300g tank. Supplement this with something like 0.75 wpg of CF or T-5's. The CFs or T5's will easily provide enough light for regular viewing. With the big MH's you'll have enough to grow any of the plants you've listed. If things get out of hand, reduce the length of the MH photoperiod. If you want to crank it up a bit, leave them on longer. You'll be certain to have "enough" light, and you can fine-tune to acheive the effect you're looking for.

A second approach would be to shoot for 1.75-2wpg and leave them all on for the entire photoperiod. This would work pefectly well too, but for me options are always nice to have.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

I love options, but since this is going to be in a tv set, I'm thinking of going with the all day 2 wpg idea. Can't have an extra 300 watts of light popping on in the middle of the afternoon doing a shoot.

I'm deciding against the sump. I'm just not liking the idea of splashing water, degassing Co2 and the extra space needed. Instead, I'm thinking we will use the overflow for a constant water change system. I'll still be doing the weekly water change, but this will help keep the water even cleaner. Plus, if I were to have to go out of town for a couple weeks, the tank would be fine.

I'm really liking the looks of the Ocean Clear canister systems. I think having 4 units in a row would be nice. First a mechanical, then biological (I know plants will do most bio filtering), then chemical with activated carbon, and last would be the polishing + UV unit. What do you guys think?

http://www.aquariumguys.com/oceanclear.html

They recommend using pumps 800-1600 gph. Obviously with this big of a tank and that many units in a row I'll go with the big end of the spectrum. So I'm looking for 1600 gph pump ideas (or should I even go bigger?).

Lastly, how would I work the Hydor inline heaters? The connections are 5/8" while everything with the Ocean Clears are 3/4". Would I be bringing down the flow of the whole system too much if I add a couple of the Hydor inline heaters with adapters?

I can custom make the Co2 reactor to whatever size I need.

Thanks!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The effect of one or two short runs of 5/8" tubing in a 3/4" system will be almost zero. It makes no intuitive sense, but trust me. From an engineering & fluid dynamics point of view the energy lost in such a transition is very, very small, provided you use reasonable reducers (no abrupt changes in diameter).


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

OK, I'm baaack! 

In preparation of setting up this 300 gallon planted tank, I've taken guaiac_boy's advice and I've set up several smaller planted tanks of different tech levels. I've setup some high light, mid light, and lower light tanks. I've made mistakes on the high light tank with C02, ferts and the works and I've created a large algae farm that I've believed to gotten under control. However, I've come to the conclusion that the tank I MOST like is the 55 gallon I've set up with 2 watts of light per gallon (compact fluorescent), DIY C02, and a light weight fert schedule. This tank is not high maintence but is my favorite looking tank yet. It's got an Amazon Sword, SAGITTARIA SUBULATA, java fern, and some CABOMBA PALAEFORMIS.

This is the tank I would like to replicate with this 300 gallon. Something that looks nice, but is not on the edge of an algae disaster. I know the WPG rule breaks down when you get into bigger tanks and would like to know how many watts you think I should go for in the 300 gallon tank to mimic what I'm working with at 2 WPG on the 55 gallon tank with these plants. Also, do you think metal halide is still necessary? Should I still stick with the 1.75 to 2 WPG or should I drop that now on the 300 gallon to more like 1.25 WPG? I still plan on C02 and E/I dosing.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'd still recommend MH, since the quality of light and the shimmer effect are nice. They also have a reputation for being able to penetrate down to the substrate of deep tanks - though this might be more hype than fact. For a 300g tank I'd shoot for about 1.75 wpg of MH. You might be able to get away with a bit less - maybe 1.5 wpg. A lower-light setup with CO2 is a nice, stable way to go and is quite forgiving of little variations in your water quality or fertilizing routine. I think you'll be quite happy with your choice.

One thing that gives many people headaches with larger tanks is choosing appropriate hardscape materials. A nice discus dsiplay tank of about that same size at an LFS in Salt Lake City makes use of boulders and logs. It'll take a little planning to find something that works nicely at that scale.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks again, guaiac_boy!


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Back once again!

I'm wanting around 500 watts of light for this planted 300 gallon I'm setting up (per guaiac_boy's advise). The tank is 86 inches long, 28 inches deep and 30 inches tall. Looking to conserve on the money some. Will just two 250 watt MH lights with quality reflectors give enough spread to cover this tank nicely or should I be sticking with three 175's?

I'll probably be supplementing with just a little T-5 lighting to add some more yellow light as well.

Thanks!

Tony


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