# Sunlight unavailable- any good options?



## Plantae (Feb 19, 2009)

Hello. First, I want to thank everyone in the forum for asking and answering most of the questions that I had before posting my question. I am new to this forum but have read Ms. Walstad's book. 

I am an American expatriate living in South Korea, so alot of the products are different. I have been using something called 'saeng myeong tto' which translates as 'gumbo clay'. I am originally from New Jersey, so we don't have problems with this clay in our terrestial gardens, though I read online that it can be a problem. I have had two small tanks (I'm in liter-land, but I would guess a 10 gallon and 30 gallon) running for over a year with this as the base substrate capped with gravel. 
When I searched 'gumbo clay' on the internet, it didn't seem the same as what I am using. This soil/clay is used by rice farmers and landscapers for ponds. It translates in Korean as 'Life Soil' 
There are wood chunks in it, but they are easy to remove. So far, the tanks that I have run with 'saeng myeong tto' have had excellent growth. In all, I am happy with it as a substrate.
I have run tanks both with and without lights by a sunlit window with excellent results, though the lighted one became more lush. I trust sunlight more than aquarium lights.

Sorry for the long backstory, but I really don't want this to backfire.

I'm moving in three weeks and I have to tear down my tanks. I will be upgrading to a 312 liter (82 gallon) tank that has 4X40 watt flourescent tubes. I will roughly hit 2 watts per gallon.
Because of space considerations, I won't be able to place the tank near any sunlight. Will this be enough light? If not, should I upgrade the lighting or buy some full spectrum bulbs?

Also, I am confident with this soil in smaller tanks, but I have yet to tackle a big tank. Indoor pond, yes. Big tank, no. Is there anything that I should keep in mind when using soil in a larger tank?

Sorry if my post is long winded.


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Are the bulbs regular T8 fluorescent bulbs? Anyway, you should have enough light for decent plant growth with 2wpg if the reflectors are good. 

I don't recall reading of any concerns with soil in a larger tank except for not making it too deep to avoid having it become anaerobic. My biggest tank is only a 44 gallon so I don't know from firsthand experience.


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## Plantae (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you for the speedy reply. Yes, the hood comes with 4 standard T8 fluorescent tubes. Would you suggest full spectrum lighting? 
I am leaning toward using a combination of Arcadia Original Tropical and Freshwater lights. 
(Sorry if this thread is drifting away from 'El Natural'!) Do you think that it is a waste of money?

Does anyone have any tips on using in soil in a larger tank?


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## Rusalka (Jun 11, 2008)

Hey there,

As you know from Diana's book cool white bulbs are suggested (~4000K) but many people are using a combo of cool white and full spectrum with good results. Without any sunlight I would go this route. Maybe try half and half and see how it goes? I personally am a fan of not spending more money than necessary and prefer to use regular non-aquarium bulbs but I'm not sure what's available in South Korea. Best of luck!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

I use 4200K and 5500k.
The 5500k takes some of the yellow off.
4200k first, 5500k an hour later.
The 5500k goes off first, then 1 hour later the 4200k.
The 4200K is my sunrise and sunset bulb.
I believe these two spectrums are similar to the cool white & grow light combo discussed in the book.


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## Plantae (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you for your replies. 
I ditched the Arcadia Aquarium bulb idea as it was "more money than necessary". I am also in that camp. 
South Korea is in the ADA Japan sphere of influence, so most of the products here are Japanese. 
Luckily, Made in China is right next door as well, so there are some really cheap aquarium lighting alternatives. I'm going to try out a mix of 'off the shelf' cool white and 'Made in China' grow light. My only fear is that the Chinese product isn't exactly what it says it is. There is the fear that I'll end up with 'Melamine Light'.  

I've been tinkering with soil substrate depth using spare emergent plants in pots to see if I can get the soil to grow anaerobic. Though, I am not a scientist by any means, I found that my sword plant can handle a deeper substrate. I've always kept my soil substrate uniform, so I was wondering if it is possible to deepen the soil substrate where I plant the sword? 
I have an 'L' shaped lava stone that can isolate the sword in a corner of the tank. Could I put a deeper layer of soil there, or is this asking for trouble? 

Again, thank you for all for your help.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I am not sure whether you can get hold of Philips products in South Korea. I can quite easily get them in Malaysia. If you can, I think the 36 watt PLL from Philips is affordable comparing with other brands. It is widely used for aquascaping here.

ADA is very expensive but there's no doubt about the quality. Being more on the experimental side and generally I don't appreciate over priced products (call me an anti-Capitalist if you want), I prefer to stay away from ADA. I have a lighting set using ADA florescent tubes, I would say that the quality is excellent.

I agree that products that are made in China cannot be trusted based on my experience. I bought a lighting set which was made in China about 1 year ago. The ballast damaged about 3 of my PLLs after 1 year. I searched all over the place for the replacement ballast, I could not find any. As a result, I decided to send it for modification (I am horrible in DIY). The cost of modification was almost the same as a new lighting set - I obviously regret about it. The conclusion is I don't trust products from China because:

1. The quality is questionable.
2. It is very hard for you to find replacement parts.

I am a bit surprised that South Korea being one of the major industrialised nations in Asia does not have their locally made products???


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## Plantae (Feb 19, 2009)

From what I can gather, Koreans mainly build aquariums............for raw fish restaurants. 
The cool thing is that they also do custom jobs. Usually a raw fish restaurant's aquarium has a water cooling unit, sump, built in plumbing, etc, so just making the aquarium itself isn't much work for these guys. Over the past few years, there has been an increase in sashimi tank turned aquarium builders. That is where I am going to get my 312 liter in a few weeks.
There are domestic aquarium products like heaters and filters but none of it is high end. South Korea's economy has really grown in the last 15 years, but as an export driven economy, the focus remains electronics, cars, and semiconductors...........and K-Pop.
I'm sure there is more variety in Seoul, where 75% of the population lives, but I'm 5 hours away. I have to rely on my LFS's and internet shopping, and not in my native language.
For lighting, I'll definitely be making a trek to a lighting store. I've been dreading this one. I'll need my Korean/English dictionary.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Looks like you have a tough time there based on your comment about Korean/English dictionary. I understand your situation. I was in a number of non-English speaking countries before as well and I have encountered similar issues. At least I don't live there beyond 1 month  (Anyway, I love Japan though. People are polite and honest). I also heard some Koreans are not very honest. I guess that will make the situation worse. Maybe you should consider flying to Malaysia/Singapore/Hong Kong to get your lights...just kidding (I know it's a stupid suggestion) 

In my country I have just found a 3 feet lighting set with 2 X 36 watt PLLs for the price of about RM100 ($25 USD). I think the price is dirt cheap for you. I have booked it but I have not seen the actual product. Should be collecting it some time this week. I hope it's not made in China. I will update you if you want...so you can consider flying over here


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## Plantae (Feb 19, 2009)

Is the Chinese company Dymax? I've got a 47cm 2x36 Watt set on one of my tanks. As far as cheap lighting goes, it isn't that bad. But I wouldn't fly all the way to Malaysia to get one! 
I've lived in both Taiwan and Japan for quite a while, and at the end of the day, I prefer South Korea.
Honesty in North East Asia is subjective. Because of the emphasis on social form, there is a lot of dishonesty. In Japan, this sort of thing can drive you nuts.
For example, you buy a shirt that looks absolutely awful. Most Japanese will tell you that it looks fine, rather than offend you. I'm a teacher by trade, and I've taught classes with my teeth covered in sea weed after eating sushi for lunch and once with my fly open. Nobody mentioned anything all day, not even my co-workers! :mad2: Luckily, I caught the zipper slip after only one class
In Korea, they tell you.
But I've been ripped off all over Asia.......but more in your neck of the woods.  Vietnam is a good place to get ripped off........

My Korean is good enough for most situations; most of my friends don't speak English.
When it comes to aquarium terms, outside of fish stores, I find that most people have no idea what I am talking about. But I am sure that would be the same for me back home. 
You should have seen me try to explain 'El Natural' to my friendly neighborhood fishmonger.

Well, moving day is only 9 days away, and I still haven't figured out how I'm going to transport my tanks and fish without making a mess.

This thread is gradually shifting in focus. Perhaps the title should be changed?


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I think Dymax is originally an American company. See the link below:

http://www.dymax.com/about_dymax/index.php

Well, as an Asian, I got ripped off in Asia as well. It's definitely not a surprise for an American to be ripped off as in this region...haha. You got to know the price before you buy something. I found the same principle was applicable when some Africans tried to sell souvenirs to me in Paris - they tried to rip me off as well knowing I was a foreigner 

I agree with you that being too polite by lying actually backfires sometimes. I love your story about your fly 

Yeah, we have strayed out of the original topic  I guess I am the contributor.


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## Plantae (Feb 19, 2009)

I checked the link on Dymax, and it seems that they are a plastics company. I think that they are making the cover, and selling it to another company. I would have to guess that plastics factory is in China, and then the covers are sold to either a Taiwanese or Hong Kong based company. It's very vague.

So, I went to a lighting store yesterday and asked about full spectrum lighting. The salesman asked me why I needed that kind of light. When I told him, he said that I should go to an aquarium store......:yield:

I didn't have a lot of time, so I just said thank you and left. There were tons of 'Osram' products. Does anyone know a good Osram bulb?

On a side note, in Vietnam I was ripped off twice. Once by a man with only one leg and one arm. He sold me a copy of 'Lonely Planet-Vietnam' for half of the cover price. I was sitting at a cafe when he approached with his book cart. The rest of the books in his cart were about 'land mines', and didn't have the stomach to read about land mine victims during my trip. So I bought the 'Lonely Planet'. I took the book out of the wrapping, only to find that it was all photocopied. The cover was color photocopied so it was hard to notice without looking closely. 
Down the road, I saw him quickly down the road pulling his cart. I wasn't going to chase him, as it would have been ridiculous. Vietnamese Street Vendors 1 American Tourists 0
But don't get me wrong. For every time I was ripped off, there were 10 great souls who helped with directions, ordering food, or by being friendly.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I am not surprised if Dymax is made in China. I remember being told it's imported from Singapore but I doubt it's made there. Someone even mentioned to the owner to be careful of any defects - it made me suspect that it's made in China. 

I have just bought 2 lighting sets with PLL (or PL compact) days ago. I was a bit disappointed that they're made in China too. It's too difficult to avoid made in China products these days, especially aquarium products. Those coming from Japan/Germany are too costly.


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## drtechno (Mar 31, 2009)

on my 55 I have just one single 40 watt and its doing just fine... amazon swords, java moss and jungle val and duckweed is in that tank.
no sun in that room either.


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