# Co2 ?



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Is this the right place to post threads about CO2?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi,

New myself but running CO2, what is your question?


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> what is your question?


Is this the right place to post threads about CO2?

I want to ask several questions and don't want to start the thread in the wrong forum. I'm new to this Forum and just not sure where this topic belongs.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Manwithnofish,

Just did a quick search, CO2 questions posted in most forums depending if an equipment question, plant need question, ect. Go ahead and ask.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

CO2 source. Is there a difference in the "quality" of the CO2 from a welding supply vs fire extinguishers vs paintball vs beer vs etc....?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

CO2 is a unique gas because it becomes a liquid, at room temperature, at about 800 psi. Almost all other gases require much higher pressure or much lower temperature to be a liquid. This makes it relatively easy to produce virtually pure CO2. So, CO2 is CO2, whether for paintball systems, beer taps, welding, or aquariums. O2, N, and possibly a few other gases will necessarily dissolve in liquid CO2 to a very slight extent, but not enough to call ordinary CO2 impure.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

This was a great question, I was wondering the same thing, but figured since I've never seen it talked about, the quality of the CO2 was not a concern. 

I have a few more CO2 questions. I can make a new thread if it's better but I figured it's related so I'll ask it here. 

I have a Milwaukee MA957 regulator. Well yesterday when I got it hooked up, I turned the tank valve on while the black knob was screwed in (clockwise) and heard a loud screech. After that i figured it out and knew I had to loosen the black knob before starting the flow fromthe tank. 

anyway last night it was working fine, but then slowly started getting slower and slower. Even now at 80 psi on the lower pressure guage, it's only emitting 1 bubble very 2 or 3 seconds. There is no back pressure on the tubing, I know b/c the flow is the same even when the tube is off. HELP me figure out my regulator please!! I'm also looking for milwaukee's phone number.

I distincly remember it flowing very fast and nice last night, early in the night. Did I screw up using veg oil instead of water in the bubble counter? Might this be it?

No matter how i turn the needle valve, it won't come out any faster, I have it full open, and nothing increases (well it increases from fully closed when nothing comes out). 

The needle valve turns about three full rotations. Now, it is at 60psi and coming out at 1 bubble every 6 or 7 seconds.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The instructions for the Milwaukee regulator are very specific that you cannot open the CO2 tank valve with the regulator set for any pressure except zero. The knob has to be backed off until it is completely loose. When you hit it with full tank pressure with the knob set for a high output pressure you probably destroyed the output pressure gage. Now, when it reads 80 psi or whatever, the actual pressure is much lower than that. So, you get little or no flow. You can live with this by just slightly opening the needle valve, then adjusting the regulator knob until you get the bubble rate you want.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

Hobbycalif, I don't want to annoy you with thanks, but I am greatful for your help. Do you have the MA957 too?

FYI, i've got the black knob completely loose (all the way counter clockwise) for several hours now, and the needle valve wide open (all the way counter clockwise). Tank pressure steady at 800, Low pressure guage is reading 40 and I get a bubble every two or three minutes. 

At this point I don't even know how to take things off when I can't get the pressure down. Seems like something is clogged eh? 

Another leak test revealed nothing.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

No, nothing is clogged up, the pressure gage isn't working. It is stuck at the 40 psi point even though there is no pressure there. As I said above you can get around this by just barely opening the needle valve - that means much less than one turn from when it seems to be shut, but don't force it to really be shut. Then slowly screw in the black knob until you get the bubble rate you want. Just ignore the reading on that pressure gage. Then you can jockey the regulator knob andd the needle valve to find tune the bubble rate. Yes, I have that same regulator.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

The problem is that I cant get the bubble rate I want unless it the pressure would be off the guage. I'm hesitant to do this as last night when I did it (around 110 psi!) I think I heard a hiss. The guage still responds above 40psi, and has been slowly dropping. but VERY slowly. 

Just now I tried what you say, and opened the needle valve just slightly, then cranked the black knob till the right guage went up to 120 psi (though it is busted, so who knows what it really was). Even here it was only at 1 bubble every 2 seconds. I tried completely openign the needle valve and there really was hardly any increase in the bubble counter. So I really can't get it as high as I want without it leaking. SO there is a leak when it is at 120 psi. 

Are you sure something isn't restricting the flow of the co2? No matter what I do I can't get the bubble rate up.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I suspect the gage bourdon tube is cracked from the surge in pressure and that is what leaks. You might try to remove the gage and just install a pipe plug in the regulator port. I haven't tried to remove one of those gages, but I recall someone saying it is very difficult. Apparently the gages are put in with a strong sealant/adhesive. Makes you wish you had bought a Rex Grigg's regulator huh?

I suggest a moderator move this thread to Equipment, where more knowledgable people may see it.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

I think my regulator problems were solved with a quick call to Milwaukee. I called first thing this morning, and told them that I still had 40psi on the right guage after having the tank valve, and black knob completely closed and the needle valve all the way open throughout the night. He was sure that my needle valve was clogged, and sent me a complimentary needle valve and bubble counter (b/c I think I made my bubble counter leak w/ either the super high pressure I put it under or by bumping it up against the tank stand).

He said the needle valve sometimes will get a shard of metal or something in it and once it's in there it is really hard to get out and clear. He was shipping me both the needle valve and bubble counter free of charge and I told him he made a customer for life (and that a lot my forum buddies used Milwaukees). He was really really nice and I was shocked when he asked for my addy but never for card info. How kind is that?

As for calcualting CO2, I highly doubt ANY is in there. I'd be shocked if it was above 5ppm considering the minute amount of bubbles that have been going into the tank. I'll reassume monitoring once I get this regulator figured out. 

One concern I have is whether I'll even be able to get the existing regulator off. I sure hope I don't get home from work today and find the low pressure guage still at 40 psi.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

*Great Milwaukee experience*

I called Milwaukee about my MA957 problems, and the man I spoke with was REALLY great.

I described my problem and he said with confidence that I had a clogged needle valve. He said "Don't worry about it, give me your address and I'll ship you another needlve valve." I asked him for another bubble counter too b/c mine started leaking (only under very high pressure, but still I figured it couldnt hurt to ask) and he threw it in as well.

FREE OF CHARGE!

I came home last night after leaving the black knob totally unscrewed (closed) and the needle valve knob totally unscrewed (wide open) and the tank STILL had 40psi in it. So I unscrewed the needle valve/bubble counter and it came off super easy. I went slow until I heard a soft hiss and observed the pressure going down. No problem at all. I was worreid about blowing my house up. lol.

Anyway it should get here tomorrow and I should be good to go.

He said sometimes dirt or a small piece of metal will get stuck in teh needle valve and can be really tough to get out. I couldn't believe they sent me replacement parts free. what a company!


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

Wow, these forums are jumping!

No thoughts or comments or insights?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm waiting to see what happens when you get the new parts.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

It was in fact a clogged needle valve! Though I may have been better off with the clogged one. 

I took off the old needle valve and bubble counter, put on the new one, and immediately saw better results. I could get the bps as fast as I wanted it, and tinkered with it, for a few days. 

So over the past few days, I've been tinkering with it, trying to get it at 2bps. I would set a stop watch for one minute and try to get as close to 120 bubbles as I could. I had it set at 110 bubbles, (almost 2 per second) when I went to bed the night before last. I have a pH controller, but want to get the bps nailed down before I hook it up. 

I also have everything plant related on a timer (lights and the solenoid). So it all shuts off at night, and turns on in the afternoon. 

So after work yesterday, I come home, and find the CO2 gushing out like ol' faithful, with all of my fish floating or sunk. It looked like everything was dead and I thought everything was dead. It really looked like it was free flowing. 

Obviously the excess CO2 replaced the O2 and all my fish were suffocating. I immediately began a PWC and every fish recoeverd except for two brichadi cichlids and a red tail shark. They were some of my favorite fish and my most expensive to boot! It really could have been much worse. I really have NO CLUE what happneed. I dunno if I unknowingly bumped the knob up, or what. 

IT was not the end of tank purge b/c the high end pressure is holding steady at 800 psi. 

Any ideas what may have caused this? THe needle valve and regulator are working fine now, it just somehow got turned up WAY too high. I have no idea what caused this but my only guess is that I or my fiance acidentally bumped the black knob. Ideas?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Working pressure and temp change can affect the flow of co2 through your needle valve. Its hard to say exactly what went wrong. Did you make any adjustment sense you found it to be wide open?


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

orlando said:


> Working pressure and temp change can affect the flow of co2 through your needle valve. Its hard to say exactly what went wrong. Did you make any adjustment sense you found it to be wide open?


Yes I shut everything completely off, and completely closed the needle valve.

Over the past few days I've had no problems with the bps. I managed to get it around 2 bps and was very happy with it over the weekend. Then I noticed that I was having a problem with my solenoid sort of leaking out co2, even after it was shut off; it wouldn't let it out nearly as fast though, maybe about 1 bps. So to completely stop the flow at night when the timer shuts the lights and solenoid off, I closed the tank valve completely (Sunday night). Yesterday before I went to work (Monday morning), I turned the tank valve back on completely. Do you think this might have caused it? Perhaps while turning the tank valve I accidentally nudged the black knob? If the black knob and needle valve stay un-touched, it shouldnt really affect the bubble rate right? The bubbles should only be able to come out so fast regardless of the tank valve correct?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

If you turn the main off (cylinder) your working pressure should be in the off position. If you are turning the main off/on while the working pressure is open, this will lead to premature failure of your regulator. 
Your solenoid not shutting completely may due to more debris stuck inside, if your needle valve had this, most likely your solenoid does to. 
You can clean out the solenoid by removing the needle valve and turning the working pressure up as high as you can, then plug/unplug solenoid a few times to get quick burst of co2 through the solenoid to remove any debris.
I hope this helps, PM me if you have any further troubles I can try to walk you through it step by step. Good luck!


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

Does working pressure= black knob? It was definitely slightly "on"/tightened/clockwise when I shut the main tank valve off Sunday night and then back on Monday morning. 

So I can't shut the main tank valve on and off to turn off my co2? Why/how is this harmful to the regulator?

Please answer these questions specifically so I'm sure I understand: 
(1) If the black knob and needle valve stay un-touched, turning the main valve on and off shouldn't really affect the bubble rate right? 
(2) The bubbles should only be able to come out so fast regardless of the main tank valve correct?
(3) I have a milwauke MA957 reactor, what is the black knob's proper name? I assume the valve on top of the tank is the "main"? (for clarity purposes). 

Doing what you say (blowing out the solenoid) seems dangerous, but I guess I'm wrong?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Your black knob is for adjusting the working pressure. Turning off the main the way your doing it can damage the guts of your regulator. It may not harm much now but prolong abuse like this can cause damage.
In all your bubble count may be off due to debris inside your solenoid. I would take the time to clean it out.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

I am definitely going to do this when I get home. Do you think this may be what is causing some to seep through, even when the solenoid is turned off?

Might this have had something to do with why it was gushing liek ol'faithful yesterday?

I've heard it is normal for some bubbles to continue after the solenoid shuts off. Is this true? If so, for how long after the solenoid shuts off. 

Thanks for your help orlando.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

They do sometimes leak a little but not for a long period of time. Maybe for a few minutes or so.
If there is debris inside siad solenoid, that can cause problems and would be why it is leaking for sure.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

orlando said:


> You can clean out the solenoid by removing the needle valve and turning the working pressure up as high as you can, then plug/unplug solenoid a few times to get quick burst of co2 through the solenoid to remove any debris.


Okay, what exactly do you mean by "as high as you can"? I'm pretty sure doing this is what screwed up my low pressure guage since "0" is now slightly under 20psi.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Your working pressure gauge should be able to handle what ever it reads. Say, up the working pressure to 35-45psi..
Your working pressure gauge may not be working properly due to turning main on/off while working pressure knob is still screwed in..


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

It worked. It didnt explode and now when the solenoid is unpluged there are no bubbles coming out. 

How much do I owe you?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Nothing! Me knowing your system works and your happiness is all I need. Thanks!


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

One problem persists: when I shut off my solenoid, and then turn it back on, the bps rate is much lower. 

Also when I shut it off, the bupple at the mouth of the bubble counter (the bottom) goes back into the hole from whence it came. At first I thought it was dissolving, and that may be it, but it gets smaller pretty quick, and totally disappears within a few seconds. Almost as if it's being pushed back into the regulator, maybe I do have a faulty checkvalve (at my reactor), but no water is coming down the tube so maybe it is just back pressure. 

Another thing I've noticed is that when I turn the solenoid off, and then back on, the bps rate is much much slower (just minutes later) when I first turn it back on than it was when I just it off. Does this happen with your regulators as well?

Each time I shut the solenoid off and then turn it back on, I have to open the needle valve a little more to get the same bps. This doesnt make sense. Does it just take time to work back up to the correct bps?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Does your bubble counter have a built in check valve? If not this could be kinda bad. It seems like your bubble counter has no check valve at its base.
You would be able to tell if this bubble counter has a brass base..


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

The bubble counter screws into the needle valve. I can't recall if it has a brass base or not, though I think it probably does not. 

Like I said it is the milwaukee MA957 setup. 

I chanced it though, and set it up so the timer will come on today at 1pm. I must have flipped it on and off twenty times last night. I'm so worried about another O2 depleting CO2 "gush" but see absolutely no reason why it would magically happen, when the past ten times it flipped on/off it worked fine (though at a slower bps than when I flipped it off).


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I would advise on atleast installing a check valve right after the bubble counter or get a bubble counter with brass base and built in check valve. Keep us posted. Number 2 choice I think is best for what its worth.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

I got my drop checker! It came with "reagent"; this is nothing more than a small bottle of pH testing liquid right? It says to put 3-4 drops in, which makes no sense. Which is it three or four? I have 4 degree kH solution (thanks HG) so it should be green at 30ppm right? Also it's been over an hour and its still blue, but I heard it can take up to 3 hours to equalize so we will see.


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## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

I finally got my drop checker to turn green last night, but the bps has to be so high I can't count it. I also lost a gold gourami today and have no idea why, last night it seemed fine and when I got home today it was completely lifeless. Maybe I'm having kH swings but I really have no idea b/c I can't test for that all the time, which seems to be the only way to tell if it is swinging alot. 

I also got my ferts from Rex Grigg today, and need to decide on pps or EI. I don't like having to do 50% water changes once a week w/ the EI method. 

I have a 55 gal and a 10 gal sump, so I need to dose for 65 gallons and really don't know how to do it. I've read Rex Grigg's guide, as well as the info on APC made available by Greg Watson. I've even read what Tom Barr has to say about dosing but there is so much information and different ways to do it I'm confused and hesistant to crunch the numbers without help. 

Should I do a big PWC before I start dosing, and does anybody feel like helping me figure out the correct dosage for 65 gallons?


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