# Sump with El Natural (is it gonna work?)



## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Did a few minor mods to the sump & over flow to try to keep surface turbulence to a minimum



as you can see the down pipe is going to be submerged 2" or more



and the durso will hopefully keep the water fall over the skimmer pretty short

So do you think this will pretty much deplete the already limited supply of Co2 that El Natural tanks have????


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

I see no problem with that system at all ..... I use a skimmer box with the durso set high and a oversized drain pipe that enters the sump at a 45degree angle .... the angle is said to trap anything thats gassed-off alittle longer so more of it can be redissolved by the water entering the sump (hope this makes sense)

I've read some good arguments that sump/overflows dont gas off THAT much... specially if you have a cover on your sump (which I dont) George Booth had a big writeup on his web site about this very issue.... but unfortunately it looks as the gone or moved.. its mirrored at thekrib.com and briefly mentions his view on sumps here: CO2 Injection Frequently Asked Questions

anyways, I use one and it works great for me.... keeps the surface nice and clean, and all the little bits of plants get sucked down into the sump and feasted on by snails. Plus, when you need to work in the tank you dont have to worry about your arm causing the tank to overflow. I dont think I'd have a tank any other way. 

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Thanks for the reply onemyndseye, thats just what I wanted to hear eace:

And I do know what you mean about the pipe entering at a 45 degree angle, sort of like this



so if I where to run the pipe at a 45 would I cut the bottom of the pipe at a 45 too? so that the bottom of the pipe runs perpendicular with the bottom of the sump?


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Exactly like that!  .... except I just used 2" PVC instead of the gravel vac.... I couldnt come up with the image quickly enough....was hoping youd know what I meant 

I dont have mine cut off at an angle... dont think id would matter all that much. just make sure it goes all the way to the bottom... On your setup you could put a 45-elbow just after the pipe enters the sump... ....

I tried to find some pics that showed my setup...... best I could find was a glimps or 2 of the skimmer box. *shrug*








.








.

I may be moving in January... if so I think all my tanks will get drilled before they're setup again... Not that I have any problems with the skimmer box.. LOL

In the top pic you can see the Green intake pipe for the canister which is seperate from the Sump/Overflow.. the spraybar is almost on the bottom of the tank under the Skimmer box.

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

here ya go onemyndseye, is this what we want? mabye a tad closer to the bottom of the sump???


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Thats it  ... maybe alittle closer wouldnt hurt.... or just dont let your sump get low enough that the water level is below the end of the pipe (or maybe even near below it)

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

FWIW, I think surface turbulation in your sump will be good. Someone correct me, but its safe to assume your CO2 levels will dip below atmospheric levels, so turbulation will actually introduce CO2 to the system. I do not think such CO2 introduction will be enough to increase nutrient uptake significantly, but suspect it will help the plants.

I think your downpipe exit is fine and will be quiet -- If anything I think you should move it up a little. Bonus with a Durso is you can float plants in the main or use emergent growth per Walstad's method if wanted. 

Can you keep your water line high with the Durso? Mine regulates itself near the top of the entry, but I can slightly adjust with the airhole opening. Or do you mind the water line being 2" or so below the top of the main?

Sweet plan and setup. Look forward to updates.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

onemyndseye said:


> Thats it  ... maybe alittle closer wouldnt hurt.... or just dont let your sump get low enough that the water level is below the end of the pipe (or maybe even near below it)
> 
> -Justin
> One Mynds Eye


That won't be a problem onemyndseye, when the sump is up and running the water level is pretty high (*see pic)


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

czado said:


> Can you keep your water line high with the Durso? Mine regulates itself near the top of the entry, but I can slightly adjust with the airhole opening. Or do you mind the water line being 2" or so below the top of the main?
> 
> Sweet plan and setup. Look forward to updates.


Hi, czado, and thanks for the reply  actually I hope 2" or so below the main works out, the last El Natural tank I did was always full of surface scum, and was forever doing the paper towel trick (compliments of Diana Walstad) so hopefully the skimmer will eliminate that:whoo:

and I'll keep the updates coming:supz:


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Well tonight was the first time this puppy has ever seen water  and I have had this thing for 3 months or more! But I had to do a few mods to the thing and I have 2 helpers 4 and 5, so things don't always move as fast as I would like

I ordered a 48x18x18 drilled tank and this is what I got



and I decided the sump needed a little work too!



so I did some cutting and had some glass cut and this is what I ended up with



and this



The sump is a 36" (36"x14"x18")standard Aquarium here in Australia, and I had to order the thing, so I ask if they could cut it down a bit, like 14" tall instead of the 18" is, but was told that would cost another $100 so 18" it is.

So now I have to build a cabinet, because all the cabinets here are about 15" tall, doesn't leave much head room for an 18" tall sump:frusty:

so here is what I ended up with



to this



and finally to this





So tonight I finally got to see it all work, well sort of, I mail orderd a pump and haven't got it yet, so I stuck in a 800l/h about 200g/h power head and I mean to tell you I can pee harder than this crappy little powerhead can move water :yawinkle:



Tried to do a jar test a couple of times, but my helpers seem to think it's a mud milk shake, so this is my jar test, and it seems like it might go OK, was a little worried about it because I am using a clay soil with some top soil next to a creek (the wife calls it swamp mud) and I have never tried either in a tank before, so we'll see how it goes ay!!!


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Looking good 

Cant wait to see it stuffed full of plants 

Good Luck!
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Thanks onemyndseye Still have to get another light fixture, pump, and get a few cover glasses cut to both the tank and sump but it won't be long  

And I just noticed a couple little sprouts coming up from my swamp mud, think I'll let them go and see what happens:icon_keel


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## shake (Feb 26, 2006)

Nice work swannee54. Tell me what kind of filter material will you have in there. I ask this because I just set up my tank with a sump and in one of the chambers I put bioballs. After reading a few posts in reef forums the all advise against using bioballs. Does this apply to freshwater aslo. I know I will be degasing co2 more than normal, but figured that co2 is cheap so I'm not that worried.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Thanks shake [smilie=n: I am not using any filter media in my sump, but the way I hear it is yes bio balls work best in a trickle filter as in balls are not submerged, but there is still lots of surface area on the bio balls and still work 
submerged but not as efficient, but they still get the job done!!!!!

It was always my understanding that in a marine/reef tank the living rock was the media and trickel filters and bio balls is kinda ol school instead one uses a rock to gallons ratio, I think it was 1lb of rock to a gallon of water, and in low tech/ El Natural planted tanks the plants handle that, so no need for biological filtration!!!!

But I don't know how that works in a hi tech tank, with high light levels and co2, but in any case I believe bio balls will work fine, and if there were something better, chances are you won't find it here in the land of OZ

I see you visit the Aquarium life forums as well, so have you decided to try ADA aquasoil and power sand ? and just curious how many wpg, and is it pressurized co2 or the yeast/sugar method you use in your tank?

CHEERS MATE artyman: 
Swannee


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## shake (Feb 26, 2006)

Hi Swannee, just realised you were from Melbourne. No ADA Aquasoil. Plain gravel and laterite from Melton. Next set up will definetly be Aquasoil. I have just under 4wpg and pressurised co2.

checkout Shake's 3ft Journal - Aquariumlife
Co2 Reactor - Aquariumlife
Metal Halides - Aquariumlife
Cabinet - Aquariumlife


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## shake (Feb 26, 2006)

Hi Swannee, just realised you were from Melbourne. No ADA Aquasoil. Plain gravel and laterite from Melton. Next set up will definetly be Aquasoil. I have just under 4wpg and pressurised co2.

checkout Shake's 3ft Journal - Aquariumlife
Co2 Reactor - Aquariumlife
Metal Halides - Aquariumlife
Cabinet - Aquariumlife


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## shake (Feb 26, 2006)

oops, double post, mods please feel free to delete second post.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

BEAUTIFUL tank shake, love the wood bits:clap2:


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Just FYI, the cichlid tank I have a plant filter attached to is doing great and my outflow dumps water back into the main tank and does cause surface agitation. The plant filter is 20 gallons and is a NPT. the 55 gallon cichlid tank has maybe 20% of the bottom covered in plants potted in topsoil. It's moving somewhere around 400gph between the two tanks.


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Great work.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Thanks czado  and is the Welcome. link yours, very nice and this is very interesting reading Aquarium Advice :: View Topic - CO2 outgassing in "non-Co2 added" tanks

May have to make a few changes


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Thank you  The tank is mine but am growing out a different layout now. It is the main tank and has a reverse photoperiod emersed growth sump/paludarium -- I have considered doing such a layout with no CO2, and using the paludarium's carved structure as a "natural" wet/dry with lots of surface agitation to maintain atmospheric CO2. This currently isn't a natural setup, though I do use plants as biofilters and borrow some of Walstad's methods. (I seal the sump to maintain CO2.) Just an idea to consider as you brainstorm.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

I already planned to seal the sump, even before I read the articles from your web site, but thats because lumber (timber as they say here) is $$$$$$ so my cabinet is made out of pine and I don't want the doors to become U shaped:fear:

But after reading about surface agitation to maintain atmospheric CO2 I have decided to give the 45 degree angle down pipe the flick and went back to this, for some surface agitation in the sump



And this also fixes the problem of the filter floss pads trying to float to the top ass well [smilie=l:


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Be aware that a sealed sump will limit CO2 introduction since you're also limiting gas exchange with the atmosphere, so its not as effective for the plan above. With the surface skimmer/Durso entry you may already be doing a lot of good.

Looking good


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

What would happen if you injected a little o2 in the sump ?????


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## schaadrak (Aug 18, 2006)

You don't want to try messing with pressurized O2. That stuff is at much higher pressures which makes it harder to regulate than CO2. I've heard of stories where the spout got knocked off of an O2 cylinder and it goes off like a missle, through concrete walls even. And if there's a leak, FOOM! no more house.
If you're concerned about CO2 levels in the sump, just leave some vents open for at least some gas exchange.

Tschuss,

Kent


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

If you're considering an airpump, I don't think it'll do much in terms of adding CO2 to the water. Adding one shouldn't hurt anything. 

If the sump has to be sealed, I think it will be pretty easy to increase gas exchange at the main. Maybe adapt a spray bar for the return so it trickles into the water? Would look cool and you may be able to hide the piping with emergent Hydrocotyle sp. or something. Downside is you'd increase headloss for the return low.

Another idea is to increase the water drop to the standpipe partition. 

These ideas will be noisier, of course, but I think you could make them sound like a gentle trickle.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Well the pump is here, and the water level is over the braces in the tank, so it would seem a flat glass spillway/overflow is not the way to go, so I now have some 4.5mm black acrylic that I'm going to cut some teeth in, that should help with the water level problem, and while I'm at it the braces (glass here in AUS) and all whopper jawed, and the fact they ran all the way around the outside of the tank make the return from the sump kind of a pain in the you know what!

So while I get a jig ready to cut a comb in my spillway/overflow and put new braces in the tank, I redid my sump, yet again  

so at least now I can shove a foam block/sponge down behind the baffle so the pump doesn't pick up all the crap from the tank  and with the sump half uncovered, should get a little gas exchange happening in there.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Well here we go, got a little black acrylic, spent a few hours with the trusty ol router, and VIOLIA a spillway/overflow

now the question is how far below the trim, in this case 6mm glass braces, should the top of the overflow be?????


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

looking good bro 

I just love systems with a sump - LOL .. way more pro's than con's .... It even sort of serves as a breeder trap in my tank since there is no filtration in the sump.... fry take the ride down the plumbing and end up in the sump where they feast on all of the finely broken down organic matter and such floating down there until they are big enough to net and move.


Cant wait to see how it turns out 

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Thanks  But do you have any ideas on how low below the trim the top of the overflow should be????????????????


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

I've never delt with a internal overflow... youll probably just have to play around with it until you get it to the level you want it.... It shouldnt be too hard to come up with something adjustable even

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Well here we go, Have the overflow in & braces installed



So if all goes well, mabye I'll get it setup this time


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Trimless top is a nice touch. Neat watching it come together.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Thanks czado  When I started this project, I never dreamed it would turn in to all this But I have to admit I have enjoyed it, it will almost be a shame when it's all done.


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

"..... it will almost be a shame when it's all done..."

I know that feeling!!


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Well I have been thinking about a 6 footer, I could always sell the thing and start again \\/


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

LOL... thats the biggest problem with this hobby... The urge to go forth and setup small living room zoos for our aquatic beasts  LOL


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

You're right onemyndseye, mabye I should be thinking 8 footer [smilie=u:


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Now your talking!! LOL


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

The Mrs. would hit the roof!!!! I'm talking 30 days in the electric chair :faint2:


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## shake (Feb 26, 2006)

swannee54 said:


> Well I have been thinking about a 6 footer, I could always sell the thing and start again \\/


LOL, I am already planning my 6 footer.


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

My next endever will be for sure,  but the lighting could be a bit of a problem, as we don't have 6' fluro light fixtures here, or at least I haven't seen any:sad: going by the WPG rule it would take 6 double tube 3' fixtures for a 6x2x2 to get 2WPG


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

VIOLIA after watching silicon dry for 5 days (installed new braces on the tank) I filled it today and It works like a charm \\/



as you can see the braces held, and the water level is below the braces now, the new spillway/overflow seems to have done the trick


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## swannee54 (May 24, 2006)

Making a little headway here, but I'm breaking all the rules [-X I started with a little peat moss (barley covers the bottom) about 1" laterite, 1" top soil and top off with 1mm aquarium gravel/sand.

In any case this is what I have so far


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## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Will be interesting to see what happens... you can get great results out of mixed subtrates.. or grave consequences  LOL

One thing to watch out for is the peat MIGHT make the iron in the soil and the laterite too "available" and cause some algae blooms but itll probably settle down..

Looking Good 

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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