# Potassium Permaganate with total tear down



## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

I have Brush/Beard/Thread algae, the kind that actually appears black but is in the red algae family. Everyone calls it something different but it's awful stuff and I'm sick of it! :laser: I have been running a 10 gallon tank since Sept 07 and can't seem to get ahead of it via trimming, or spot treating. It seemed to slow down with Excel, but I can't dose much because of shrimp in this tank. After seeing MatPat's many nice tanks this week I have decided to tear this one down, with the idea that I'll give the plants a Potassium Permaganate (KMnO4) soak before I replant them with new substrate in the cleaned tank. I'll dip everything else: filter parts, rocks. 

What experiences have others had with KMnO4 dip, especially with visibly infected plants &/or teardown?


----------



## ummyeah (Apr 8, 2008)

You could try diluted bleach or hydrogen peroxide.


----------



## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

spot treat with flourish excel then make sure your Co2 levels are stable, fluctuating levels of Co2 is what induces hair algae. eg. high co2 during your photo period then low co2 at night is a recipe for hair algae growth


----------



## Adragontattoo (Jun 3, 2007)

IIRC black algae doesnt enjoy higher PH.


----------



## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

I should have said I have very hard, very alkaline reads, in the morning even- and from the tap. Tank is so stable, I rechecked the test kit. I do not dose CO2, I run low tech El Natural with dirt. I have tried reg bleach dip at 1:19, which killed many of the plants I dipped. Peroxide turned the algae white on plants I took out and soaked, but didn't work as a spot treat. Excel seemed to help, but I can't spot treat with it without risking the shrimp. I don't want to dose Excel regularly for the same reason. I am so frustrated with this. I would love to have the benefit of others experience before I break it down. I plan to get the PP tomorrow or Thurs. when it's in at Ace Hardware. Any KMnO4 stories?


----------



## icom (Feb 23, 2008)

I just picked up a bottle of PP for the same reason.

The bleach dip kills everything,too many plant losses with it.I've never tried the hydrogen peroxide though,so I dont know how well that works or how hard it is on the plants,I hope the PP works well


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

In my experience, KMnO4 does kill some algaes, but other species do *not* seem to be as sensitive to it.

(Sorry for the extremely short post... I'll elaborate later today when I have more time.)


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

so here's the long story...

A while back (three years ago?) I was dealing with several really annoying types of algae that I just couldn't seem to get a handle on. I ended up tearing down the tank (for that and other reasons), sterilizing everything, and doing a 19:1 water:bleach dip on the plants. I did keep some java fern that had some evil type of algae (it was not brush/beard algae... it was very coarse, possibly staghorn or horse hair?) growing on it in a 2.5 gallon tank though. About a month later, I took some of it and did the 20 minute KMnO4 bath, then kept it in a glass where it got a little sunlight each day. It turned a brownish color, but a few days later it was back to green and growing again. So I tried it again, leaving it in about an hour this time, but had the same result. So then I tried 6 hours in a more concentrated solution...  It took a big hit, but it was _definitely_ still alive. (Honestly, I don't know how that's possible.)

Since the teardown, I had added plants to the tank a couple times that had been soaked in KMnO4 and didn't have problems. That tank stayed algae free* up until a couple months ago. I got plants in the mail that had some algae, and I knew that bleach dipping them would kill them completely, so I tried to remove as much algae as possible and then gave them a 20+ minute bath in a dark pink/light purple KMnO4 solution. Apparently that didn't do the trick, because since then I've been dealing with hair algae. Like your experience, Excel has slowed it down, but not killed it.

* - Free of hair/brush/beard/staghorn, etc... I still occasionally had algae that AFAIK came from airborne spores (green water, GSA, and cyanobacteria, and I fight with GDA quite often).


----------



## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

Tropism, 
This is just what I wanted to know. Sounds like PP may not be the perfect solution. I am having a hard time finding a small amount of it, (Ace can get it in 25lbs bag, but frankly I don't want to store it in my house). I def have persistant algae, whatever you call it. The last plant shipment I got, I rinsed in Hydogen Peroxide solution and that went ok. I may just trim off and trash all of the algae and replant after a peroxide dip, and hope for the best. I'll have to think on this one.


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

Some other things to note with KMnO4 --

*1.* Effectiveness seems to be determined by how concentrated the solution is, how long you leave stuff in there, and how sensitive whatever you're trying to kill is to KMn04. Those things can be hard to balance.
*2.* It's fairly gentle with most plants, but I've heard that some plants are very sensitive to it. I'm not sure which ones exactly. I did have some Anubias nana 'petite' turn to mush within 24 hours after I soaked it in it, but it could have been something else that caused it.
*3.* Pond snails and (all?) snail eggs don't seem to be sensitive to it at all - at least in my experience
*4. * The dry form (black/purple crystals) can be very dangerous if not stored correctly (look at a Material Safety Data Sheet for more info), but it's not as bad when mixed with water. (You still want to treat it similarly to bleach -- don't drink it, leave it on your skin, etc)
*5.* A TINY bit of the dry stuff goes a long way. When used to treat certain conditions in ponds, it's about 1 teaspoon per 600 gallons!


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

mommyeireanne said:


> I may just trim off and trash all of the algae and replant after a peroxide dip, and hope for the best. I'll have to think on this one.


That actually may be the best thing to do in this situation. Even if you need to do that a couple times it's better than tearing down the tank, going through all the trouble of cleaning/sterilizing EVERYTHING (remember that fish and shrimp can have algae spores in their stomach, as can the water that they're kept in while you're sterilizing everything else) only to find out that the algae wasn't actually killed. I wish I could tell you for sure whether PP would be 100% effective for you....

By the way, I had a hard time finding the potassium permanganate too. I did finally find a 5 lb container at a local water softener supply company though. If at some point you decide to go ahead and get some, you might want to see if you have any water softener supply/well supply places near you. I did a search on the internet and this popped up: http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=427. Don't know where in Ohio you are, but if you're nearby you might be able to get it from them, or they may be able to suggest a place. Ordering online from them only lets you get it by the case. It's hard to find places that will ship single containers, but one 24 oz. container would probably last a lifetime. You DEFINITELY want it in a good container, and DEFINITELY DON'T want a 25lb _bag_ sitting around because of its dangerous nature. Also, I found this: (probably a lot more expensive than locally, but at least it's only 1 pound and can be shipped) https://www.pondrx.com/products/16133.html


----------



## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

Yeah, I am aware of the nature of Potassium Permaganate, I used to be a HazMat'er. Reading about it on the web, I was under the impression I could get a 6 oz bottle (someone showed a pic of)- I really don't want to store it. I'm thinking that would negate my home-owners insurance  So I don't buy stuff blithely, but I'm also not afraid of it. I do respect chemicals. 
Since hearing that PP may melt some of my plants, like chlorine did, I'm leaning toward a replant. I have been transferring the shrimp and MTS to another tank. I'll just do a peroxide rinse. I was thinking I'd QT all the animals for a while to clear their systems, and go through all this effort... I just can't bring myself to do it all. I guess the spores could be in the air anyway, even if not in my soil and if I clean everything. I wanted low tech because I like to watch the tank more than maintain it. Replanting is worth some effort because I've stuffed so much in there willy-nilly that it has no boundaries anymore. No discernable 'scape. I've been trimming off the algae some, but I think I may just cut it all out and replant what's left with a new soil topper. 
Thanks for the help. I'm pretty frustrated with this, but I'd have been more frustrated if I did all the work and most of my plants died.


----------

