# Men and Women - Aquascaping



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

So everybody knows that there are way more men than women in this hobby. I'll wait for some responses before I give my ideas...

1. Why more men than women? 
2. Do you think there are differences in how each sees the hobby? 
3. Are there differences in their styles? 
4. Who are some of the women? I can think of names of some good male aquascapers.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Interesting discussion, I will give some of my opinions!

I'd love to hear what people have to say as well.


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## gravy9 (Aug 28, 2008)

Very interesting questions. I'll have to think about these questions before I answer.

Good going Drinda.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

My two cents:

1. My wife believes that women have too many responsibilites to do between work, kids, and the home to have time to work on tanks and so on. I tend to agree; it is much more easy for a guy to make time for a hobby, regardless of other responsibilities. Traditionally, it has always been "kids leave Daddy alone, he needs some quiet time" and then Mom ends up with the children to entertain them while Dad works on the car, repairs, hobbies, or going out with the Guys.

Kind of another example of a Glass Ceiling. I would like to point out that I do plenty around the house, have no children, and have the good fortune to spend a fair share of time at the house doing work when I am not traveling. In other words, it is easier for me to make time to spend with the tank than other people.

I also think that the relative dirtiness may have something to do with it as well. From an early age, we have all been pre-conditioned that boys go outside to play in the mud and girls stay inside to play house with their dolls. Boys get to fingerpaint when girls have crayons because they won't get their dresses messy. Guys play football, girls go to dance class.

I am, by no means, saying that this is the case for everyone "out there," nor do I believe that it is right. I think as we advance as a society, you will see more women get involved in this hobby where the numbers will either balance out or favor women.

2. One of the reasons I think women will end up populating this hobby is because I think that, as a generalization, they are more apt to see the details and design something that is more pleasing to the eye than men. Again, there are always exceptions to this. I think men can make a great overall picture prone to mistakes in the fine details. We need practice and make the time to do so until we have obtained a result that is true to the original "vision" we had. I think women would have a much easier time at this hobby then men. Alas, if only they had the time to make the time for the hobby!  (joke)

3. Oddly, I don't see many differences in styles between men and women. I think that because women tend to be more detail-oriented, they can achieve the desired effect in less time then a man. I notice that Jess and TexGal shared similarities in "collectoritis" and the tanks shared some of the same look, but were also very unique in their own right. Sunstar seems to plan well in advance and obtains a great end result as well, but I don't think that a man couldn't achieve the same result. I think that Sunstar probably achieved it faster than a man could, all things being equal. And then you have Diane Walsted who detailed out NPT; but I have seen many NPT's done by men that are pefectly similar in style as well. There have been plenty of Dutch style aquariums that have been done by both men and women, and there really is no difference from what I remember in style.

4. Drinda, Jess, Diane Walsted, Sunstar are women that I feel have stood out. Again, I don't look for who's a woman or a man while I am on here unless I am PM'ing and need to know how to address the person.


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## zeneo (Jul 10, 2005)

For the first question...

...I suppose may be two possibilities (in my range of age: married, with kids, etc.):

1 - We (man) are the ones who control the money

2 - The women are spending too much on clothes, special creams, hairdresser, etc.




Second:

Working a lot with women in the environmental area, it seems for me, that women don't seem to see nature in the philosophic way as most man do.

Third:

I don't remember to see any top aquascape only made by a woman. But is strange. I believe that some of the nature aquarium culture, as T.amano said before, came from the Ikebana Japanese flower arrangement that is made mainly by women.

Fourth:

Where are they??

I hope I've explained myself correctly in English, sometimes has this one is not so easy to put the right words.


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## rodrigaj (Aug 17, 2008)

My wife spends hours on the outside gardens, while I have no interest in them. Over the years she has given me pointers about plant placement and prunning techniques, yet she has never wanted to take the tanks over.

I'm drawn to the aquatic gardens because of the technology, my DIY love of gadgetry and my love of fish and fish breeding.

For sure, Karen Randall, Christel Kasselmann and Dianne Walsted come to mind.

In summary, men like the gadgetry, women like the ecology. How's that for stereotyping?


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## FBG (Jan 2, 2006)

Tex Gal said:


> 1. Why more men than women?
> 2. Do you think there are differences in how each sees the hobby?
> 3. Are there differences in their styles?
> 4. Who are some of the women? I can think of names of some good male aquascapers.


My reasoning;

1. In a hobby dominated by males it could be that women are intimidated. but I think that it could be that the time restraints due to job, family, and the like. it seems that the household is held together by the leading female of the family. I have rarely ever seen a male being in the center. this could be due to many different factors of which could include not wanting to be the center, but wanting to only be the support. but I can see this changing in generation Z. with the changes in the structure of families since generation X things will start to turn around.

2. I think the females will tend to see the details in the hobby, this could also be one reason that females don't usually join the ranks of aquatic plant lovers, there are too many things to do and it can get over whelming to the perfectionist.

3. I have see differences in each and every aquascape regardless of gender.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

1. Why more men than women? 
I can see how a woman can get fascinated by the beauty of an aquascape. But I can also see how she will be put off by the technical side of the hobby. Unfortunatelly the technical side is discussed in much more detail than the actual aquascaping. That should not be so, the equipment, fertilization and so on aren't rocket science but most people do not apply common sense to planted tanks and the pointless discussions make them appear complicated, tricky, techie and what not.

2. Do you think there are differences in how each sees the hobby? 
Absolutely. My wife sees the hobby without my eye for bad trends, imperfect details and so on. It's refreshing to hear her view. Makes me see the beauty of it all all over again.

--Nikolay


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## fwdixon (Dec 11, 2008)

zeneo said:


> For the first question...
> 1 - We (man) are the ones who control the money


You're not married, are you? lol


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## leelee (Feb 9, 2007)

Mizu-chan and that lady named "rose something" who used to post on here are two of the best female aquascapers. 

Why more men than women? It's a good question! The short answer is it's not lady like. But I have to disagree!

Are there differences in their styles? Yeah, they're more feminine.


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## tex627 (Nov 2, 2008)

i've never thought about this. i would actually expect more females in this hobby because there are so many more female "tree huggers" than male "tree huggers" you would expect them to like the aquarium hobby more.


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## andreic (Apr 2, 2008)

Maybe women had other ways of creating beauty?


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

The distribution of men and women in the aquascaping scene seems to be about the same as the distribution of nerds in school.

I'm not saying aquascapers are nerds, but you have to have a "nerd gene" to take all the time needed for making an aquascape tick. With "nerd gene" I mean the ability to focus on one single thing almost in absurdum. The kind of focus that takes you to internet forums where you can discuss one single thing with people sharing your fetish.

This almost autistic ability to focus on one thing seems much more common with males.

That said, I think the distribution of male/females in this hobby is much more even compared to the distribution of internet forum members or the distribution of male/females in aquascaping contests. Largely because going from aquascaping to have the urge to discuss every single point of the hobby on forums and going as far as competing with other hobbyists in something that is an artform is a large step into the nerd world.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

defdac said:


> ...you have to have a "nerd gene"...


Hey DefDac is back, haven't seen him in a while here.

I now wonder what aquascape would Napoleon Dynamite create. And moreover - would Deb ever try to aquascape?










--Nikolay


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## kennkh (Jun 5, 2006)

Good question, I've never really thought about it. I like defdac's explanation though. Men do seem to get more obsessed about their projects then women do, sometimes devoting a ridiculous amount of energy and time to one project at the expense of others. 

I know that sometimes I lose sleep thinking about an exciting project and will sometimes forget to eat or rest while working on it. I know a lot of guys that develop a similar type of obsession. I know a few women that are like that too but they seem to be in the minority.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I just stumbled on BrightyK's post (post #18 ) in this thread:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/56029-how-start-new-aquarium.html

So according to BrightyK that there's a huge misconception about the effort needed to create and maintain a problem free planted tank. I completely agree, to say the least. I guess thanks to that misconception we have at least 2 big planted tank forums full of idiotic questions about fighting algae and all sorts of other "amusing" issues.

If what Kennkh says is true - that only a small percentage of women get obsessive about projects - then we can say that in the case of planted tanks women are victims of a misconception. I myself get lost in the endless posts discussing the same details all over again, the "fascinating" equipment discussions, and the "mystery" of fertilizing. And it's not only me - a member of this forum that used to visit some time ago just came back. Despite him studying biology (and in particular plant physiology) it took him 3 days of reading APC to figure out that it's very hard to dig up the essential information. So the information is too much, disordered, confusing, contradictory and so on. It doesn't really help the newbie, unless he really persists. And it appears that women don't have patience for that. I don't blame them at all.

Knowing a few women from our club I can say that what's common about them is that they seem to treat their tanks with forgiving tenderness. They seem to not mind if a plant is growing crazy all over as long as it's healthy and happy. I think that men as a group are more controlling and "growing healthy and happy all over the place" means less to us. To me at this point it appears that this thread needs a psychiatrist or a psychoanalyst to step in and help out with information about the difference between the sexes.









"Planted WHAT?"

--Nikolay


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I think it's very interesting that outside gardening is usually dominated by women. It's usually their flower beds, etc. I look at planted tanks as inside gardening. I think that's one of the reasons that my tanks look like wild beds. I see the aquascapes that men have done and won awards for and they are more manicured boxes hence the golden ration thing. This phenomenon tells me that it's not that women aren't as interested in plants/ aquatics etc. but that something keeps them from it.

This has been interesting! I especially liked Niko's last offering. I agree with him. I really think Niko hit the nail on the head with the "difficulty" technical aspect of the hobby. If I knew nothing about planted tanks and signed onto this web site (or any of the others for that matter) I would say to myself - I don't have time to learn all this. It seems way to complicated. I'd like the finished product but it's something that won't fit into my life.

For years, in my tanks, I have grown plants. I used easy plants and plant tabs. It's because of my love for the exotic that I ended up high tech. Because I am not a DIY person I have had to have help. My husband has helped me with the many of the build things. Niko has built my light. If I had not had help I would have had to buy these things, which increases the cost factor.

One thing that comes up all the time on this forum is the female role in controlling the cost factor of this hobby. I think women are more concerned about costs that do not "benefit" the entire family directly. This hobby is definitely a discretionary income hobby. I think men have less trouble spending discretionary income on things they want. Women tend to think about the "family" approach.

So I think it may come down to 2 main factors that limit female participation.
1. Discretionary spending.
2. Discretionary use of time. Women tend to use their extra time, more for the entire family than themselves.


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

I might be an odd ball in response to Tex-gal's post.

being that I am a female, married...no kids. I dare say my husband and I do have a partial role reversal. Where I am currently unemployed my duty is to do the house work, I am the...what the hell am I? A tom boy, for lack of a better term. 

For one, when it comes to anything that needs to be built and repaired, that is what I do. If I had room, I would have a wood shop. 

My husband gets the tools for christmas, I am the one who uses them. 

I can become heavily focused, leaning toward obsessive when it comes to my hobbies that I will quite merrily not do my house work. 

Spending...my hobbies tend to be expensive. I will spend much on them, so I really need to get a job so I can spend more on them. 

My time: I divide it up as I see fit. if I feel like I want to share it, I will. If not, I won't.

As for my husband's thoughts. He is facinated with the tanks, but he has little interest in being an active part. He does not know a thing about them. 

He has his hobbies too. Riding bicycles, fixing them up, researching stuff, reading. Oh yes his computers. His hobbies are costly too, but differently.

I think in a nutshell, I am more like a male aquascaper.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Hmmmm. Discussing gender differences always seems to land me in hot water with someone. 

It is indeed curious that there is such disparity in the hobby. It's very clear that both sexes are capable of world-class aquascaping.

Maybe it's a money thing, but I doubt that's the primary issue. I'm inclined to side with defdac on this. A certain amount of nerd-dom and fanatical devotion is almost a prerequisite.

While ******** seem to be happy enough keeping an oscar or two in an old mayonaisse jar, upper-eschelon nerds seem to be most at home with a 9,000 gallon reef system or a bells-n-whistles planted tank. Such distinctions are more easily imagined as male traits than female.

Planted aquariums do require an endless amount of tinkering, sort of like getting that old chevy in the garage running again. The tinkering gene is located somewhere on the Y-chromasome, I'd wager.

Now I have to go off and think about this for a while........


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Sunstar said:


> I might be an odd ball in response to Tex-gal's post.
> 
> being that I am a female, married...no kids. I dare say my husband and I do have a partial role reversal.


With your StarScream link I would have bet money you were a 'dude'. You never know these days 

I gotta agree with the nerd/tinkering factor. I can remember the glazed-over look I've gotten when significant others hear discussions on fertilizing methods or the arguments to use PAR to measure lighting for the planted aquarium.

Interesting enough, the women in our local plant club had interests in gardening as well as aquariums, which got them into planted aquariums. On the other hand, most guys in the club got into 'gardening' (i.e. emersed setups) from planted aquariums.


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## edlut67 (Feb 26, 2007)

Women are just smarter than we are. 

In the spare time we have nowadays women want to enjoy their hobby. They enjoy their gardening outside. This involves getting rid of the weed that grows every now and then, but that can be taking care of while singing. All with a fast beautiful result.

While we are frustrated with our algae, fighting with our lights, running around the house with buckets full of water, spending our last money on plants which will probably not grow the way we want etc...


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

hooha said:


> With your StarScream link I would have bet money you were a 'dude'. You never know these days
> 
> I gotta agree with the nerd/tinkering factor. I can remember the glazed-over look I've gotten when significant others hear discussions on fertilizing methods or the arguments to use PAR to measure lighting for the planted aquarium.
> 
> Interesting enough, the women in our local plant club had interests in gardening as well as aquariums, which got them into planted aquariums. On the other hand, most guys in the club got into 'gardening' (i.e. emersed setups) from planted aquariums.


True, you never know. 

Quite a few females I know in the transformers fandom are Starscream fans. We are also a breed apart from our male counterparts in our enthusiasm for him. With that said, I don't share a number of the common traits for a female transformers fan. :twitch:

My husband gives me a glazed uninterested look when I try to discuss the various fertilisers. Or annoyed when I tell him to look at the shrimp heap that's feeding. I think that's because he finds that group gross.

I admit, I got into planted tanks because I have a need to be with green. I live in an appartment and I can't really have a garden. This satisfies my need.

My sister on the other hand, 9 years older, has a fish tank, a couple plants...that's it. It'll grow-maybe. She's the girly girl. She played with dolls as a child, she wore skirts alot, makeup and now does scrap booking as an adult hobby.

I played with tonka trucks, transformers. I hated skirts, although I have a few that reach my ankles. I will wear those from time to time. I never understood makeup and scrap booking looks....its cute, but not for me.

My best friend, who's a girl, hates fish so discussion with her about this is not in the books.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

I am also a member of a male-dominated Guitar forum (even moreso than this hobby or forum). This very question came up once and I mentioned the idea that women generally have less spare time, since they are "most often" in charge of cleaning, cooking and family matters. I know some of you guys will object to that because you are good partners and help your wives. But. generally speaking, I think this is at least part of the case. 

BTW, the idea didn't go over too well in the guitar group.

Personally, I don't have kids to tend to, but own a home, and manage to fit in my fish hobby, and (barely) my guitar hobby.
penny
PS...."lady like"? That term is pretty antiquated!


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## rountreesj (Aug 14, 2007)

Well men tend to have more free time for hobbies.

in terms of aquascaping, after a point, it is purely a competition for who can make the best scape. Women usually are satisfied with a helthy tank anf not a perfect "competition" tank.

Plus guys tend to really indulge in the tech part. I mean how many of those tanks are set up with all the autodosing, water change systems, reactors, etc. are set up by women. If you think about it, all the tanks we drool over are the one that have all the fancy expensive setups. That's why all us guys love ADA, cause we can see the money and we like it.


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## gibmaker (Jan 3, 2007)

I don't know, but when I first set up my 125 gal I purchased a huge plant package and started throwing them in the tank. an hour or so later I stood back to look at my creation in total disgust, I am not a decorator. My GF never even had a fish tank and I asked her if she thought that she could make it look better than I did? Lets just say she moved the scape around a bit and it stayed that way for 2 years looking just awesome, and she did it in half the time I did. Sometimes you just need a lady's touch, she is a better aquascaper than I am.

She does get kind of squemish, I had a ghost shrimp jump out of the tank and land on her shoulder when she was trimming (that's right, I got her trimming too) holy crap talk about a spasm, she wouldn't even pick it up off the floor to stop it from drying up into a shrimp stick. Then there was the other time she grabbed onto the shed exo skeleton of my bamboo shrimp asking me what is this? I was smiling the whole time fully knowing the reaction that was about to take place, I then told her and watched the fun ensue.


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## _chicken_ (Oct 7, 2007)

Interesting thread! I just got back into aquariums 2-3 years ago, after a 10 year break. During all the previous years I had been involved in fishkeeping, I never belonged to a club, never really knew anyone else who shared this interest. 

When I went to my first meeting with the local planted tank club, I was surprised to find that I was one of the only women there (out of 20+ people, there were 4 women). It had never occurred to me that this might be more of a "guy" thing. I knew it was kind of nerdy, I knew it was a weird sort of hobby to have. But a male dominated hobby? That simply never occurred to me!


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## starrystarstarr (Dec 18, 2008)

i was talking to my husband about this topic and he gave me a flat answer.
"The womens place is in the kitchen and the bedroom." he said he was joking around but im sure there is a small part of him that really does think that way.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

starrystarstarr said:


> i was talking to my husband about this topic and he gave me a flat answer.
> "The womens place is in the kitchen and the bedroom." he said he was joking around but im sure there is a small part of him that really does think that way.


...there are lots of people that have tanks in the kitchen and bedroom....  No problem there![smilie=b:


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

This has been a very interesting and entertaining read. The initial question was about aquascaping specifically and I think men are more likely to have a finished project in mind and work to reach that goal, while women that have aquariums tend to enjoy the growth and evolution of the tank. 

I enjoy gardening outdoors and my tanks provide me with the opportunity to do the same inside. Since my gardening technique is informal with plants permitted to reseed and come up wherever, you can probably guess that my aquarium gardening technique isn't going to win any awards. There is no finished scape that I'm trying to reach, just a relaxing hobby (more or less) and the joy of watching the tank evolve as the plants grow and fill in or I decide to try a different arrangement or new plant. 

Now as to why the entire hobby is dominated by men . . . hmmm, I'll have to get back to you on that. 

p.s. The bedroom is a perfect place for an aquarium or two. I love being able to procrastinate getting up by watching my 2 tanks.


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

My main tank is more or less an evolution, my Muddy banks (the betta one) and the cavern (not yet in progress) are tanks with a very distinct plan.

I want to have my cavern tank in my bedroom as I wish it to be where it is dark and cool.


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## kimcadmus (Nov 23, 2008)

I've always been a tinkerer interested also in aesthetics. I attribute to painter mom and engineer dad and being lucky enough to have them both share their interests and encourage most any of mine. There was no gender bias when it came to certain hobbies or activities. Helping mom in the garden and dad with the car.

Interestingly enough it was my aunt who game me my first aquariums as kid. Her's were incredible reef and planted. I was also fascinated by insects, reptiles, and plants when playing in the yard with my brother. We would collect specimens, draw them, look them up in the encyclopedia and release them.

When I went away to grad school, aquariums went on hold. I had to focus on school, work, family, and friends. I had male friends in school who were able to maintain their hobbies but often sacrificed other aspects of life.

I'm glad to be back into the hobby.

Great thread TexGal..........I always enjoy your posts.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Thanks Kim. I find it interesting that it does seem that women's tanks are more wild and free. Maybe it's just because there aren't enough comparisons for a valid sampling. I don't see women trying to really copy anyone's tank. Maybe it's the overall feel they like.

Waterfaller has wonderful nano tanks. Complexity's tanks, before she moved, were wonderful. (Where are you now Vicki? I hope you are ok!) Sunstar's DIY talent never ceases to amaze me. I love her Betta tank!!! Cs_Gardner's tank was one of the first that I fell in love with. Karen Randall's work is wonderful. I do think there are some wonderful women here that do amazing work. (In proportion to their numbers maybe even better than the men, no offense please!)


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Tex Gal said:


> I do think there are some wonderful women here that do amazing work. (In proportion to their numbers maybe even better than the men, no offense please!)


Blasphemer!!!!!


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## intothenew (Aug 1, 2008)

I do not offer answers, only a personal observation from a wonderful relationship with this hobby and an incredible lady.


Submerged plants and fish do not take kindly to cuddling.


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## info scavenger (Jun 25, 2008)

Plain and simple, most women just do not have the time nor energy. Women still are the primary caregivers of children, do most of the housework, cooking, laundry, shopping and work full time outside of the house. While most men help out at home more than their fathers, the majority of the work still falls up women.


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## gman0526 (Apr 14, 2006)

IME most women place aquariums in the same category as toys, along with video games and therefore a waste of time and money. They look nice but are not worth the time and effort.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

Just now seeing this thread, but want to jump in real quick, seeing how George Farmer mentioned that one of the reasons I was chosen for interview was because of my age and gender...

1. Why more men than women? 
The pretty-factor woos a lot of women. The tedious, scientific, expensive pieces and parts aspect, patience and social impression probably doesn't woo. You don't see a bunch of gals sitting at a table for coffee talking about their brand new light bulbs. Ok well I do. Also, the time a person can truly appreciate and afford this hobby is probably after they've gotten into other hobbies, had kids, etc. Kids love fish tanks. Kids can't afford $400 lighting systems and patience it takes to get results. Adult [women] mostly can, but there's probably a lot else going on in their life. The women I've talked to LOVE my tank and like to look at it. But it takes a trained eye to see what's gone into it. I was lucky enough to start in the fishkeeping hobby (and stick with it) very young. By the time I could afford the big kid toys, I had already ingrained an appreciation and fascination for aquascaping.

2. Do you think there are differences in how each sees the hobby? 
Not to make a blanket statement, but it appears to me that only those OUTSIDE of the hobby are going to see it differently as men or women. Men like projects... cars, boats, building stuff. And aquascaping is an ongoing project that includes building, tools, etc. Women, I think, are a little more instant-gratification centered and if it doesn't come pre-packaged perfect and done, AND able to cuddle, it might not be so cool in their book. Women say "oh how pretty." Men say "What's up with the plumbing!?" haha

3. Are there differences in their styles? 
Us ladies (at least here) tend to have a wilder-jungle feel that pulsates from manicured, to jungle and back and forth. I see more intricate, extreme and highly manicured scapes from men. That may also have something to do with the competitive aspect. My tank is a home for the animals, first and foremost. Seeing if I can get my plants to turn blood red is an added challenge that takes the back burner.

4. Who are some of the women? I can think of names of some good male aquascapers.
Walstad, Drinda, Catherine, Karen.... etc.


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## MagpieTear (Jan 25, 2009)

I'll have to agree with the nerd theory as well. At a recent childrens birthday party at my house, everyone was oohing and ahhing over my two tanks (neither of which are truely "scaped" but are collections of plants stuck randomly in the substrate) The mothers remarked about the "prettiness and naturalness", the dads wanted to know how much work, how much did it cost, how much this, how much that... Except the one female geek (some sort of -ologist at CMU) She wanted to know what was up with the CO2 bottle and how did I arrive at the ideal CO2 balance and asked about bacteria and outgeeked me bigtime. 

If you wish to see a true disparity of the sexes, try going to a motorcycle forum... But the women often can outride the men because they are more fluid and less hamfisted with the right hand then the men.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

I think the last post pretty much sums it up.


Men are more worried about the practical side of things, where as women are more worried about appearance.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

zeneo said:


> I don't remember to see any top aquascape only made by a woman. But is strange. I believe that some of the nature aquarium culture, as T.amano said before, came from the Ikebana Japanese flower arrangement that is made mainly by women.


First let me address this misconception. *Ikebana is traditionally a man's art *(like most parts of asian culture), and was started by men. Looking on some of the larger ikebana using even large tree branches, one can see how the physical strength of a man comes to play when weaving together bits of tough plant matter. While women have also done ikebana for centuries, and there have been many great femal ikebana masters, still to this day many of the great masters and students of Ikebana are men, and the tradition will always have its root's with men's ikebana.

Even in looking at Japanese garden design and stone arrangement, these are largely male-dominated artforms, and always have been. Can you imagine a noble woman in ancient Japan, dressed in her elborate kimono, having much to do with the sweaty work of lifting large stones, fortifying and training trees with large wooden poles, or raking moss?

Addressing aquascaping, this is a highly technical artform, with all the gadgets and gizmos, ph reading etc. While now there is a big movement to try and get more women into math and science, without a doubt these fields have been traditionally male oriented.

Let's not lie to ourselves-- Aquascaping has a decidedly "geeky" side to it.

Though anyone can appreciate the beauty of the resulting aquascape (and I will say that the ladies love my work), the fact is that in making aquascapes one needs a bit of "Otaku Seishin" (spirit of fanaticism). The devotion (obsession?) required for understanding water balance, memorizing fish/plant species, studying the art, playing with Cameras, etc. etc.-- it lends itself much better to the border-line ADD-ness men are famous for (infuriating women the world over). "Boys and their toys," as they say. The same kind of personality that becomes a car-shop geek, also is suited towards becoming an aquascaper. Rather than having more free time for hobbies-- men _make_ more free time (at the expense of various other activities generally involved with "having a life" lol).

Finally-- let's face it, between arranging heavy rocks (you need pretty big ones even for an Iwagumi in a 60cm tank) and wood, installing equipment and even doing water changes, there's a definite physical element to aquascaping.

I've thought several times "Wow, if I hadn't done so much wrestling training in highschool, doing that would have been a bitch!" during my aquascaping career (towards a variety of tasks). Things have not changed so much since those first ancient Ikebana artists and garden designers. It's still men who have the brilliant idea to play in the mud, move big rocks and plants, get wet, get hot, get sweaty and icky, and at the end of the day-- maybe put out something brilliant (albeit incredibly geeky).

I'm not saying that women can't be great aquascapers, but most of them lack the personality (insanity?) profile (and back muscles) that generally get involved with it.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I can't argue with the facts that Steven put forth about there being heavy work involved in this hobby. My big tank (126g) even empty is way more than I can lift. However I have been the landscaper/gardener for our family for decades. I have often seen that it's the women that are at the gardening stores picking out the bushes and plants. Somehow  we have found ways to hoodwink the heftier of the species into digging our holes, planting our trees, toting that barge, and lifting that bale. Tanks are SO MUCH easier to garden in than a yard. I'm not sure it's the hefty issue.

I do think that the time constraints may be the biggest issues. Men have always counted on women to "pick up their slack". Their making time for the hobby usually means that someone else does what they should be doing. (I think I'll just let that die a miserable death right there...) I would not have been able to have the high tech tank I have now when my kids were little. Back then it was plastic plants. As they grew it turned into low light plants.

I recoil violently let when I hear that we are "geeky". Maybe it's true, I don't know, but I really prefer the term "passionate"!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

@Tex Gal-- xD lol and *nodding*

Well, argue what you want about geeks, but we are definitely all Otaku, which is arguably even funnier.

From Dictionary.com (yes, the English dictionary):

"Otaku"
Part of Speech: n
Definition: An avid collector or enthusiast (esp. one who is obsessed anime, video games, or computer and rarely leaves home)

From Wikipedia:

Otaku (おたく/オタク ?) is a Japanese term used to refer to people with obsessive interests, particularly anime, manga, and video games. In modern Japanese slang, the term otaku refers to a fan of any particular theme, topic, or hobby.

"Passion" is the mark of an Otaku.  Leaving the anime and video games aside.

edit: Also from Wikipedia:

The word *geek* is a slang term, noting individuals as "a peculiar or otherwise odd person, *especially one who is perceived to be overly obsessed with one or more things including those of intellectuality, electronics, etc.*


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

STEEEVEN!!! YOUR KILLING ME!!!!.... I won't confess!!!


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## John_Auberry (Feb 25, 2009)

Because women don't need to be wasting time with hobbies, They need to be washing dishes, LOL just picking


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I'll try to be as politically correct as possible. Women possess beauty so they say "what the hell, I might as well shop" men on the other hand are quite heidous so they have a need to create beauty through their aquascapes.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

... I think it's time to put on my hip boots! I hate shopping.


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## Valthenya (Feb 11, 2009)

As a woman it is intimidating when all these men are doing it and there are no women doing it.. other then that i have no clue i love growing things inside and out..


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

That's interesting, because I've never thought about whether other guys were doing my hobbies or not. Then again, I do like to where good clothes and look nice. I guess it's true that in doing that though I (and probably other men) can't help but feel self-concious.



houseofcards said:


> I'll try to be as politically correct as possible. Women possess beauty so they say "what the hell, I might as well shop" men on the other hand are quite heidous so they have a need to create beauty through their aquascapes.


Though that might be just American men. That said, I feel quite emasculated while shopping. The other day a gay guy told me I have excellent fashion sense-- and that made me feel very weird.


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## brion0 (Dec 24, 2008)

The people that have seen my tank an asked about starting there own were both women. Im going to try to get my 11 year old daughter into the hobby. Her mom said I could give her a 10g for her birthday in June. Most women dont want to be up to there armpits in a dirty ol fish tank, Id say.


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## Wilder (Jul 23, 2006)

brion0 said:


> Most women dont want to be up to there armpits in a dirty ol fish tank, Id say.


 I'd be careful with that "most women" comment. 

I have many hobbies and interests, and so visit many forums. I rarely post, however, because I'm more likely to spend time actually _doing things._ Men, on the other hand, seem to enjoy posting to forums as part of a "chest-thumping" ritual. If they have, say, a new piece of gear, an upgrade to their bike, or a new overpriced ADA tank, they'll post about it. The women I know? They'll be out on the trail breaking in that new gear or bike part and getting on with their day.

This question has come up at least once on each of the forums I visit -- and though the men are sure they're the only ones who like to get dirty or play hard, they eventually come to realize that even though women don't seem to be a big online presence, we're out there and doing the same darn things and enjoying it just the same. And in the end, isn't that what really matters?


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## Valthenya (Feb 11, 2009)

Wilder said:


> I'd be careful with that "most women" comment.
> 
> I have many hobbies and interests, and so visit many forums. I rarely post, however, because I'm more likely to spend time actually _doing things._ Men, on the other hand, seem to enjoy posting to forums as part of a "chest-thumping" ritual. If they have, say, a new piece of gear, an upgrade to their bike, or a new overpriced ADA tank, they'll post about it. The women I know? They'll be out on the trail breaking in that new gear or bike part and getting on with their day.
> 
> This question has come up at least once on each of the forums I visit -- and though the men are sure they're the only ones who like to get dirty or play hard, they eventually come to realize that even though women don't seem to be a big online presence, we're out there and doing the same darn things and enjoying it just the same. And in the end, isn't that what really matters?


ditto


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Wilder said:


> I'd be careful with that "most women" comment.
> 
> I have many hobbies and interests, and so visit many forums. I rarely post, however, because I'm more likely to spend time actually _doing things._ Men, on the other hand, seem to enjoy posting to forums as part of a "chest-thumping" ritual. If they have, say, a new piece of gear, an upgrade to their bike, or a new overpriced ADA tank, they'll post about it. The women I know? They'll be out on the trail breaking in that new gear or bike part and getting on with their day.
> 
> This question has come up at least once on each of the forums I visit -- and though the men are sure they're the only ones who like to get dirty or play hard, they eventually come to realize that even though women don't seem to be a big online presence, we're out there and doing the same darn things and enjoying it just the same. And in the end, isn't that what really matters?


Maybe it's true that men due feel the need to engage in "chest thumping." However, in the case of aquascaping, it's an art and art is meant to be shared and appreciated. It's not like I have guests over to my dorm room everyday, and I would like to have my work touch more than just me.

I want to command respect and awe from my fellow hobbyists
I want to compete and get results that satisfy me
I want to be known and famed
I want to feed my ego
I want to make great work that can touch a lot of people the world over

While maybe not applied only to aquascaping, these are desires I'd recognize in myself, and I personally don't think of them as being shallow or meaningless at all. Maybe that's me being a "male" about it.


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## Wilder (Jul 23, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> Maybe it's true that men due feel the need to engage in "chest thumping." However, in the case of aquascaping, it's an art and art is meant to be shared and appreciated.


 Of course it's art, and art is meant to be shared, appreciated, and enjoyed if the creator so wishes it. Please don't misunderstand me there. But I've noticed how some of the most awe-inspiring and beautiful aquascapes are done by people who rarely participate in the forums. They've simply created a masterpiece and are sharing the end result.

Speaking for myself, and as a woman? Planted tanks are a passion and a hobby for me. I am not making these tanks for others, but for myself. It's certainly pleasing when my husband or guests compliment my work, but it doesn't register as a reason for doing it in the first place.

Sharing the tanks online is equally low on my "to-do" list. I'm too busy tending my other hobbies, or working, to care about more than the occasional post online. Considering I work from home and have no children, that says something. If I had a child or two, or worked outside the home? I doubt I'd have a user name here or on any of the other forums I visit. I'd still take time for my hobbies, but forums would be a fairly low priority at that point.

Is this the case for all women? Couldn't say. But I do know that the usual stereotypes of women not wanting to get dirty, or being too ditzy to do more than shop is a very unfair view to take. Speak for the women you know directly -- not for all of us.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

I'm also not interested in competing or conquering. Yes I see this as an art and I love posting here to hang with people who have my passion in common. But at the end of the day, my tank is the ultimate piece of living art in my home that has the added benefit of housing pets. I dabble in other arts, so it's like a trifecta of happiness for me: nature in my home, art in my home, pets in my home.


I'm also perfectly happy knee-deep in horse pucky and collect daggers, and I paint my toenails purple and like to wear lace and cameo necklaces, so perhaps I'm just bipolar. hahaa


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Seemingly this discussion has gone from women and aquascaping to the competition and online posting/presence side of things. Since this is an online forum we have to assume that this discussion is involving women who we know about online. Not to say that we might also know women in our personal lives that are great at this.

The competition part, to me, is an interesting direction. I love my tank. I love posting it to see what people who love the hobby think of it. Ultimately I do it for my own enjoyment. I have thought once or twice, thanks to my husbands encouragement, of entering an APC contest. Don't know if I'd have considered it but for that. Maybe part of it is intimidation because of some of the tanks I see on here. Maybe is because I don't have these goals that Steve has mentioned:

_I want to command respect and awe from my fellow hobbyists
I want to compete and get results that satisfy me
I want to be known and famed
I want to feed my ego
I want to make great work that can touch a lot of people the world over_

These don't occur to me. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the wonderful comments. It makes me feel good that I've done things well. But I'm not out to be famous, world renown... etc. I think that may well be the "male" part of this.


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## MagpieTear (Jan 25, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> Maybe is because I don't have these goals that Steve has mentioned:
> 
> _I want to command respect and awe from my fellow hobbyists
> I want to compete and get results that satisfy me
> ...


Not all men though. Ask those here who know me face to face, I am the least competitive person you'll ever meet. Sports don't interest me, power intrigues me, but not enough to pursue it. Alpha male status will never be mine, and that's fine, I don't want it. My drive is to be the best *I* can be, I only compete against myself, be it with my career, my riding, my woodworking, or my tanks.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

@Wilder-- well, that's probably in part because many of the greatest aquascapers don't speak english all that well. Heck, the vast majority of the top 10 from ADA is always from Asia anyway, and Japan is one of the weakest countries in English in all of Asia. Not to mention they really don't have a strong "forum" culture. I've tried to break into Japanese communities of hobbyists on line multiple times, but it's generally blog-based, which is just not as satisfying to me as our very direct forum format. Heh, maybe someone should build a Japanese aquarium forum-- there could be some money involved.  Even amongst the European aquascapers, many I'm sure feel more comfortable amongst hobbyists/forums who speak their own languages. But that's getting off topic . . .

It's certainly true that there are woman who don't mind getting down and dirty. It's certainly true their are guys who are ditzy and love to shop (lol, me).

Of course stereotypes will always be met with lots of exceptional examples, especially when trying to stereotype people. It's just in human nature to try and categorize things.


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## hedson_25 (Sep 20, 2005)

i think...women prefer to spend the oney diferently. be honest it's kind of expensive hobby. i can buy a discus fish for 50usdl with no regret women i guess 80 usdl skirt sounds better. 
when a fish dies men just flush it down...women would be weeping for a week.
to set upo an aquarium can be a tired some work wich women may not want to do.
there is things we just like to do... women cook in the kictchen when it's outdoor unquestionable men will Barbeque and grill meat... 
women will plant flowers but men will take care of the grass.
i'm sure women can do it as good as men in this hobby but their nature may direct them in a diferent way...


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

wow.


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## Valthenya (Feb 11, 2009)

perhaps women who aquascape are too busy with personal lives as well as aquascaping to be able to get online

And i do cry when my fish die or i have to give them up, they are my pets just like my dog is. 

Lets not go assigning gender specifics here... my husband loves to garden and i enjoy grilling as well...


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## hedson_25 (Sep 20, 2005)

i did not meant to generalize...but what *i see* it's common, maybe other see it diferently and i agree...


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## Fishtory (Jan 21, 2009)

Hi Hedson,

That's a good point: what each of us sees may be different.

I'm a female with an admittedly strong nerd gene. I majored in statistics, a male-dominated field both in the 80s and (surprisingly, to me) when I updated my skills a few years ago. My minor was computer design. I"m the author of several books, no not romance novels but books about being your own contractor and developing real estate. I break horses, and can command a huge stallion better than most men who are lots bigger than me. Etc etc. 

And on the flip side, I wear makeup, nail polish, and high heels even when everyone around me wears jeans. Jewelry, too -- I consider myself very girly. 

I've just started with aquascaping. I have no problem getting dirty, although I'm pretty happy if hubby offers to help carry water (he's doing that right now) or substrate. I did those things, though, on my own since the 70s. We've only been married 10 months. I"ve always raised worms and brine shrimp to feed to my hungry bettas.

I already see that my aquascapes are going to be less "wild and free" (girly?) and more like the guys' planned/scaped ones. All that means to me is my logical thinking skills are once again showing through. My dad refers to this as the engineering mind.

Anyway, I am really interested in this thread. It's very eye-opening.


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## Red River (Feb 23, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> One thing that comes up all the time on this forum is the female role in controlling the cost factor of this hobby. I think women are more concerned about costs that do not "benefit" the entire family directly. This hobby is definitely a discretionary income hobby. I think men have less trouble spending discretionary income on things they want. Women tend to think about the "family" approach.


I absolutely agree with you on this. For years and years I have been wanting to get back to having an aquarium. Being the mom of a 2 year old takes up quite a bit of my time and energy that I haven't wanted to take away from her. But, once I saw how intrigued/amazed/awed she was by the fish at a lfs I realized that it would interest her as much as myself.

The enjoyment she had looking at all the fish was amazing. We walked in and her eyes got huge. She grabbed a fistful of my jeans and literally pulled me from one tank to the next with pure wonder. At that point I realized it would be worth it... although having her rinse her binkie in the tank and then stick it back in her mouth was rather disgusting.


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## Demi (Dec 30, 2008)

Hello, the innocent little 14year old is going to chime in! LOL

IMO, aquascaping is an art, and with art, it gets very complicated. A marvelous piece of artwork to one, may be a disgusting scribble to another - its all about preference..

I don't think just gender comes into focus though - what about age?

Age is a good point - You can't really expect a 1yr old little girl is going to be far more artistic then a 5yr old boy, just because of her gender.

Its silly to think females OR males are more artistic then one another... Afterall, gender is basically a miner thing! Both genders are humans, both genders have their own preferences and opinions.

I don't believe only females are family-based people - I have known many husbands who are more then willing to have the fair share of work, maybe even more so. Infact, friends of ours, the wife goes to work every day while her husband spends the day wiping the bums and feeding the very young children....

Thats my 2cts ))))


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Demi, you make some good points. But I do wonder why there aren't more women in the hobby. We certainly don't have to all create the same tank. That would be so boring!!! Even the same look would be boring.


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## Demi (Dec 30, 2008)

Are their really less women in the hobby?

I have always thought it was standard... On several other forums I am on, the females quickly outnumber the men!

I have always thought men and women were equal.. Well, LIKE to think they are definately equal, because I cannot say "females aren't into the hobby as much because she has to look after kids" or "males are more into the hobby because they are constructive"

How do we know that? Males and females are equal - HOWEVER in some hobbies and sports their is more of one gender then another, based on the interests and opinions of the particular person...


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

I know there are lots of women in the hobby. One of my favorite shops is owned by a woman. 
I think the reason why a lot of people say "where are they?" is because most of us take our tanks just below the ADA calendar calibre and are content with having a happy-healthy tank that may not be award-winning and fame-gaining, but just what their goal was in having a tank. I noticed this phenomenon when I started getting feedback from other women after my tank and interview was published. I found myself thinking ... what? I'm a young female, so what? But then it became clear that there are many of us, we're just under the radar while the Dave Chows, George Farmers and others are making massive and world renowned strides in the art. I watch the big wigs rock the aquascaping world, take my notes, learn from them and tweak my fish's home in secret.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Jessie said:


> I found myself thinking ... what? I'm a young female, so what? But then it became clear that there are many of us, we're just under the radar while the Dave Chows, George Farmers and others are making massive and world renowned strides in the art. I watch the big wigs rock the aquascaping world, take my notes, learn from them and tweak my fish's home in secret.


Well Jess, I would dare to say that you got as many or more comments on your TOTM as they have on their tanks! I think you just have a different style - as do I.... I'm not sure one is better or not. I think we're all just trying to make them look great!


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## hedson_25 (Sep 20, 2005)

mmm...i thik this them could hurt some feelings if it keeps going, i hope not.


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## maxima (Feb 23, 2009)

It's quite possible I'll have the weirdest reply here 

I don't think there's a difference between women/men when it comes to aquascaping. The only major difference I see in planted tanks is high-tech vs low-tech. 
And that's more about money than it's about gender. 
I've met ladies who try to keep the budget as low as possible but then again I've met men like that as well ! The same goes for "showing off" (which I believe isn't the subject of this thread by the way). 

One thing though: When someone has to depend on another's budget (in most countries that someone is usually the lady since she has to stay home with the kids) she or he does tend to watch out for the budget and thus design the fish tank accordingly - like getting 2 T5's instead of 8, which in turn will affect everything of course. 

So yeah, I think it's rich people vs not so rich people


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

Tex Gal said:


> Well Jess, I would dare to say that you got as many or more comments on your TOTM as they have on their tanks! I think you just have a different style - as do I.... I'm not sure one is better or not. I think we're all just trying to make them look great!


I do agree. If my fish are happy, then I don't care  The whole concept/debate is a little strange to me though because I never really thought about it. Actually, the thing that I noticed the most when I was young was the extreme age-gap I dealt with. I was 16, working at a fish store and teaching 50 year olds how to cycle a tank. Then I'm contacted by PFK with the theme being my age and gender. I never really noticed it until it was directly pointed out to me.


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## hedson_25 (Sep 20, 2005)

well, then i think the theme shouldn't have been call why there is fewer women but why do we percive less women, i do see women in this hobby actually a good amount down here (mexico) are women and the AGA magazine is done mostly by women as far as i know... maybe men tend to showup and be pruder for the tanks like cars... i barley see a women having strong feelings like a man for her car.
i have bought books about women in to this hobby like waldstad and kasselman and i do enjoy them so much.
... and jessie i do like your tank alot... looks far better than mines.

greetings
i wish my wife would like hobby as much as me!!!


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

The local plant club has far more men, at least attending. When we went to the AGA conference there were far more men attending. It could just be the free time, less children obligations thing. I don't know. I should find out if we can easily see what the ratio of men to women APC members there are..... ...interesting.... ;D


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

That would be interesting to see the true ratio here. I think it might surprise us.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Tex Gal said:


> I should find out if we can easily see what the ratio of men to women APC members there are..... ...interesting.... ;D


I saw a thread once , maybe in the Water Bucket or in APC Polls, that had to do with exactly this question. It was from at least a couple or more years ago. I'll see if I can find it.

Jessie, you've been a member for awhile, you've probably seen this thread I'm thinking of?

-Dave

Found it: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/apc-polls/3417-plants-sex.html

So far, only 345 'voters' , and it's roughly 80% men, 20% women.


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Jul 26, 2008)

I wonder which gender is more dominate in this hobby. I would expect it to be females.


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## brion0 (Dec 24, 2008)

Wilder said:


> I'd be careful with that "most women" comment.
> 
> I have many hobbies and interests, and so visit many forums. I rarely post, however, because I'm more likely to spend time actually _doing things._ Men, on the other hand, seem to enjoy posting to forums as part of a "chest-thumping" ritual. If they have, say, a new piece of gear, an upgrade to their bike, or a new overpriced ADA tank, they'll post about it. The women I know? They'll be out on the trail breaking in that new gear or bike part and getting on with their day.
> 
> This question has come up at least once on each of the forums I visit -- and though the men are sure they're the only ones who like to get dirty or play hard, they eventually come to realize that even though women don't seem to be a big online presence, we're out there and doing the same darn things and enjoying it just the same. And in the end, isn't that what really matters?


Wilder,

:fear:I guess there are women who like to get dirty.:yield: Most of my posts arn't made during the day, try to stay busy doing when the suns up. Posting speeds up my learning, I pry wouldn't post at all if it wasn't for my obsession with growing plants under water. Seems like many women are here, an keep some of the nicest tanks also.


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## uglybuckling (Jun 28, 2004)

My girlfriend spent 10 minutes arranging my driftwood and made it look better than I could come up with in 6 hours of fiddling with it. I don't know if there's a difference in style but (at least in my case) there's a big difference in aesthetic ability. 

If she's amenable, I'm going to try to get her to do more arrangement/aquascaping in the future.


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