# Minerlized soil question.....



## VisionQuest78 (May 22, 2009)

Hello everyone, i have had this thread posted in the substrate section but havent gotten any replies. Would love some ideas and input from some of you. Basically im just wondering about using a really rich soil and then mineralizing it. El Natural says use a rich soil as is, and mineralized says use a regular top soil as low in organics as possible. Why not combine the 2 methods??? Anyway, heres the link http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/62625-combo-el-natural-mineralized-soil.html

Any ideas??? Thanks guys!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your question is difficult to answer.

Organic soils like potting soils are nice for NPTs, because they naturally generate a lot of CO2 the first few months. This gets plants off to a good start, because CO2 is usually the limiting nutrient in aquariums. Potting soils have worked very well for me, better than the my backyard's iron-rich Piedmont clay. Ordinary soils have about 1/10 the organic matter of most potting soils.

Hobbyists that use CO2 injection do well with soils that are less organic. That's because they are providing CO2 to plants artificially.

As to using fish mulm from a Tilapia farm, I don't know. Could work. If it does, let us know.

For NPTs, any soil--particularly one that is unfertilized and organic rich-- will work. That said, the one that I have been using successfully to set up current tanks is Miracle Grow's Organic Choice Potting Soil.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Wow, despite saying this is difficult to answer, I think this is a great answer - it sums it up very concisely! I'm going to earmark this!

But this also leads me to another question - quite awhile ago, I'd gotten the impression that using a soil which was not very rich in organics was preferred, as a way to avoid a significant flush of nutrients entering the water column and promoting algae. Was that line of reasoning only in regards to those who were having major algae outbreaks, to try different potting soils?

From the threads I've read, folks who have mineralized their soils "lose" some volume. While some of that could be from inevitable material loss from wetting, transferring, etc., the idea is also out there that the organics are getting broken down, and losing a lot of mass to out-gassing as this happens. I'm a little skeptical about just how much of a volume difference would be seen from this, and think its more likely that the smaller particles resulting from the breakdown are taking up less perceived volume. 

Anyhow, the advised airing out of potting soils, to let them be exposed to air for a few days before re-wetting and submerging them - this is just to release any available ammonium/ammonia, correct?

So what's "next" in the breakdown lineup? If its CO2, we'd want to keep that, but if its more ammonium/ammonia, that would be good to get rid of, right?

*sigh* I'm probably over-thinking this. 
-Jane


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## VisionQuest78 (May 22, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Your question is difficult to answer.
> 
> Organic soils like potting soils are nice for NPTs, because they naturally generate a lot of CO2 the first few months. This gets plants off to a good start, because CO2 is usually the limiting nutrient in aquariums. Potting soils have worked very well for me, better than the my backyard's iron-rich Piedmont clay. Ordinary soils have about 1/10 the organic matter of most potting soils.
> 
> ...


Thanks Diana, im even more confused now. Not because what you said was confusing, just that im still not sure how to approach this. Even though they are similar in ideas, your El Natural and the mineralized soil methods go at things quite differently. And they both seem very successful. Im just not sure yet which way i want to go.

As far as the mulm goes, i have collected a gallon freezer bag full, i would say roughly between 10 - 15lbs worth, looks like a bag of chocolate pudding! lol Im definitely going to incorporate it, but yet again im just not sure how. Either going to mix it in through out the soil, or add a layer either on the bottom of the tank 1st or do a small layer of soil, then mulm, then more soil plus my cap. Im just worried about the mess it could potentially create. Any ideas on the best way to approach this?



Jane in Upton said:


> Wow, despite saying this is difficult to answer, I think this is a great answer - it sums it up very concisely! I'm going to earmark this!
> 
> But this also leads me to another question - quite awhile ago, I'd gotten the impression that using a soil which was not very rich in organics was preferred, as a way to avoid a significant flush of nutrients entering the water column and promoting algae. Was that line of reasoning only in regards to those who were having major algae outbreaks, to try different potting soils?
> 
> ...


Jane, i think you're basically right, i think its a combo of the organic matter being broken down and everything being smaller in size. The reason for the wetting and then drying and rewetting, as far as for mineralization goes (im not sure about using just plain potting soil as is) is this is when the bacteria work their magic the best and most effeciently. Its that in stage between being fully submerged and dry that the bacteria in the soil really thrive. From what i understand, its not off gassing of ammonia we're trying to get when mineralizing, its converting those organic gasses and nutrients into inorganic ones.

But im with you on the over thinking thing, i have a tendency to do that myself. So much so that i end up not doing ANYTHING sometimes. lol Im trying to just pick a path and follow it at this point. get a feel for what im doing before i start wondering off into the woods on an unbeaten path.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Visionquest,

I think I would evenly incorporate the mulm into the soil or use it under the soil (not on top) because on top pf the soil it is more likely to find its way into the water column and possibly cloud the water (finer particle size than the soil).

As to mixing the methods (NPT and Mineralized), it depends on what you want to input into your tank. If you decide you want to do CO2 injection, adding extra organic matter to a mineralized soil might give you the option of successgully using DIY CO2 as opposed to pressurized. 

If you don't want to do any CO2 injection, then you'd be better off starting with a soil high in organic matter (potting soil) or by using a minerailzed soil (yard soil) with a little added mulm/humus/organic matter.

The trick is to make sure you are not adding "fresh" organics. You don't want to go adding the peel from your banana you ate this morning or any fresh leaves you've collected. The organic material needs to have gone through some amount of breakdown first so it is not toxic. Using fish mulm should be good since it was decomposing prior to you collecting it.

I actually just did what you are thinking about. I set up a NPT (yesterday) using soil from my brother's old flowerbed in his yard. The soil is old, so much of the high organic content has been decomposed and used up, but it is still higher than normal topsoil. The fact that is has been subjected to a couple years worth of 46" annual rainfall lets me know that is has mineralized as much as I could want. I'll post results after a couple months. My goal is to not have to use injected CO2.

-Dave


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Just my two bits, but maybe you could cap the organics with something more inert. The idea would be to slow leeching out between water changes, resulting in a longer lasting substrate. You'd also be keeping some of the nutrients away from the column, which can help with algae control. It's not a new idea really, but it's one that I haven't seen used as much lately.

-Philosophos


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Philosophos said:


> Just my two bits, but maybe you could cap the organics with something more inert. The idea would be to slow leeching out between water changes, resulting in a longer lasting substrate. You'd also be keeping some of the nutrients away from the column, which can help with algae control. It's not a new idea really, but it's one that I haven't seen used as much lately.
> 
> -Philosophos


Do you mean a really high organic-content soil with something like sand on top? And might one be able to use 'fresher' organic matter, or would it still need to be aged/decomposed? 
There's a guy who did something kinda like that (humbletex). He used some composted topsoil and put sand on top, but his was probably still not as high in organic matter as what VisionQuest78 is considering.


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## VisionQuest78 (May 22, 2009)

davemonkey and Philosophos,i think i will kind of just reply to both of you at...thanks you to both of you for your input!

When i say higher in organic matter, im not talking a mix of compost and manure and humus and banana peels and whatever else. lol Im just really thinking about taking the soil that Diana recommends and then mineralizing it. That would be the combo im talking about. El natural uses rich potting soil as is, with out modifying it and mineralized soil is pretty un organic plain old dirt (the suggestion is with as little organic matter as possible) and then mineralizing it and adding in a few things (clay, potash, and dolomite). So im just wondering why not take something like Miracle Grow's Organic Choice Potting Soil and mineralize it?

Im not too sure what to do with mulm the though. I just know ive read again and again that the older a planted tank set up gets and the more mulm that accumulates, the better everything grows. So it seems like if i could get a jump start on that, it would be a good thing! But i also kinda feel like that it couldbe easily over done and create alot of mess and problems.

Whatver I end up doing for a substrate, it will be a soil of some sort and it will DEFINITELY be capped by something, whether it be sand, colorquartz or whatever. Try to contain as much nutrients as possible from leaching into the water column and just keep it down and in place so every time i do something in the tank its not a mud storm.

And for this 10g tank, im not planning on doing pressurized CO2, atleast not in the foreseeable future. Im doing this as cheaply and as easily as i can get away with, being my first planted tank and im on a budget. I do plan on either adding excell or doing DIY co2 reactor. Im basically just wanting to get my feet, but still have as much success as possible, to eventually move on to bigger and better things.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ya, you could take the trade and go fresher, assuming you know that it's safe for your plants. Don't throw in what you don't know about. I would probably spend months reading and testing before doing fresh organics in a large tank, just to make sure the sources are safe and provide good NPK. Leaf litter might be the exception.

The availability of nutrients to your plants coming through the soil, with a barrier in effect, will hopefully allow you to starve algae out a little better while creating non-limiting growth for your light level. Establishing rhizome plants might be a little tricky; I'd worry about GSA and BBA on smaller anubias maybe.

The trade-off is having the difficulty in working between the two substrates, they can turn in to a mess. I'd advocate one big chunky layer of sphagnum moss between the organics and the inert. You've also got to make sure that you've got healthy roots going in; there's a higher chance of anarobic conditions, and these plants are going to have to supply their own oxygen. The exception might be dumping something coarser on top; gravel or commercial planted tank substrate. Just make sure that there are varying grain sizes and shape.

-Philosophos


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

VisionQuest78 said:


> Im just really thinking about taking the soil that Diana recommends and then mineralizing it. That would be the combo im talking about. El natural uses rich potting soil as is, with out modifying it and mineralized soil is pretty un organic plain old dirt (the suggestion is with as little organic matter as possible) and then mineralizing it and adding in a few things (clay, potash, and dolomite). So im just wondering why not take something like Miracle Grow's Organic Choice Potting Soil and mineralize it?


Gottcha. I think it would work quite well. I would still mix in the mulm or use it under the soil layer (since you've already gone through the trouble of collecting it). And push your plants as deep as you can to start the roots off in the soil.

-Dave


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

VisionQuest78 said:


> I just know ive read again and again that the older a planted tank set up gets and the more mulm that accumulates, the better everything grows. So it seems like if i could get a jump start on that, it would be a good thing! But i also kinda feel like that it could be easily over done and create a lot of mess and problems.


In older literature, planted aquariums were set up w/ an inert substrate like gravel or sand w/out a soil (or mineralized soil) sub-layer. In these planted fish tanks, the addition of mulm was necessary to make the substrate fertile and sustain plant growth.

Today, thanks to the work of D. Walstad and others, we now all know that a fertile substrate is necessary for good plant growth and that (inert) gravel or sand alone cannot support good plant growth. Whether this fertile substrate is regular soil, mineralized soil, mulm (that's settled in the gravel substrate), ADA soils, Eco-Complete or whatever doesn't matter; They all do the same thing of providing nutrients to the plants through their root systems.


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## VisionQuest78 (May 22, 2009)

Something else i have been considering for the mulm is freezing it in ice cube trays and cutting into more usable size and then just inserting it into the soil around plants. That way i have more control of its use, and i could get a better idea on if it was actually helpful or not.


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