# Layout without plants ;)



## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Hi

I know that this is planted tanks forum but there are other things that i would share with you . My 44lts no-CO2 tank for APC Layout contest don't exist anymore (of course there will be progress pictures in contest thread in next few weeks ), i rescape it and made SA biotope without plants. I like this biotope more than others so here it is:










Dimensions: 64x30x23 cm
Lights: 18W Philips TLD 965 (9.5 hrs/day)
Filtration: AquaClear MINI with sponge.
Parameters: KH 2, GH 3, pH 6.6
Water temp: 24C
Substrat: sand (1mm)
Bioload: 3 oto, 12 paracheirodon simulans, (some apistogrammas in future)

What do you think? Does it look (a bit) like nature biotope of blackwater (swamp, lagoon)?

ps. Tank is still under construction (i'm looking for more wood and leafs)


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## kivit (Aug 29, 2005)

*swamp*

nirbert,
it is beautiful! I copied the picture because it is too dark on my computpr and lightened it in my editing program.
that is a brave step to create a scape without plants.
the leaves are a nice touch.


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## kivit (Aug 29, 2005)

*apologies*

Sorry! I mistyped your name, Norbert.


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Without plants??? that wood and those leaves ARE plants!! just dead plants.. so technically.. its without live plants. not without plants..

But it looks really good Norbert! i like it..


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## fishmaster#1 (Apr 10, 2005)

It looks empty and dead to me. What are those leaves? Are you not worried about them breaking down and fouling the water. I think you will have many algae problems in that set-up without plants to adsorb the excess nutrients.


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

ranmasatome said:


> Without plants??? that wood and those leaves ARE plants!! just dead plants.. so technically.. its without live plants. not without plants..


Yes, technically you're right 



fishmaster#1 said:


> It looks empty and dead to me. What are those leaves? Are you not worried about them breaking down and fouling the water. I think you will have many algae problems in that set-up without plants to adsorb the excess nutrients.


Black water should look like that...empty and dead (but only in plants enthusiast category ). In some black water rivers and lagoons don't grow a single plant because water parameters are too hard for them (hardness almost zero, small sun penetration, pH 4 or even lower). See some Amano pictures from Amazon expedition and you catch what i mean :










http://www.finarama.com/gallery/amano.htm

Algae? 
In that kind of biotope there is no problem with that...plant can't grown..algae too. Light is low, filteration is good, often water change (almost pure RO), peat and everything work fine. My N-x levels are zero. This tank run over 3weeks now.

ps. I know that this kind of tank isn't interestig for plant junkies but i made it for fish (not for plants ) and i must say it's good variety from my full planted tanks :lol:


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I like it! That's very nice Norbert. 

What apisto are you considering? 

That's some nice driftwood!


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## DiPpY eGgS (Jun 3, 2005)

Greetings, Norbert!

I must say, I love the natural look! Outstanding job! I love planted tanks too, but there are many options/styles of tanks that are very appealing to me. It is all about the look IMO. 
Props to you and your biotope tank, I have been wanting to do one of these myself, but you beat me to it! Sweet tank


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## |squee| (Feb 3, 2005)

Nice job there. Reminds me of cichlid biotopes. 

You need more fish though, since fish are your main focus here. How about an apisto or two?


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## bonklers (Sep 24, 2005)

I really like this tank, best biotope "looking" tank I've ever seen! I've been diving in a couple of cold lakes here in Holland, and this layot gives me the impression I'm at -4 metres in the winter when all the plants has died. Ofcourse I don't see any neon-tetra's there . Have you been experimenting with freshwater sponges' ? I think that should be interesting on a couple of branches. They are mostly dark/yellow/brown. You don't want any green colour to mess up this layout. Couple of questions though:

1. 18 watts on a 60*30*30 for 9.5 hours, isnt that quite normal lighting? Don't you get algae from this?
2. What do you do in order to keep algae away with this setup? UV installed, keeping your microsiemens low?


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

fishmaster#1 said:


> Ok since I saw what you were going for GOOD JOB. I personally don't know why you would want to set-up a tank that looks like that,but if you want a really dead look add about 3 lbs more leaves. I see plants floating on the water in the second pic maybe you should add a floating carpet to block more light and adsorb some of the excess nutrients. Frogbit might work not sure if it is a S American plant. I have some dwarf floating lillys(like water lettuce but different) you could add to that. I am willing to send them to you FREE just to see how they would look in there. One more thing I see you lacking is small twig litter. Break up some wood into tiny pieces and scatter them all over the left side with more dead leaves of course.


I'm stil searching . It's hard to find long and thin wood for small tank. Other problem are the leaves (they shout take from trees in january and february so now is no season for harvest (?)) but i found some friend from polish apisto forum that will help me 



Cavan Allen said:


> What apisto are you considering?


Propably apistogramma agassizi (this is my favorite apisto) 1+1 but maybe i will find other (smaller) species.


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

bonklers said:


> Have you been experimenting with freshwater sponges' ?


Hmm..freshwater sponges? Never heard about it  but i thing there is nothing like that in polish rivers, lakes etc.



> 1. 18 watts on a 60*30*30 for 9.5 hours, isnt that quite normal lighting? Don't you get algae from this?


There is one brake in lighting period. Lighting work from 10:30 to 13:00 and from 16:30 to 23:00. Ohh..my mystake, this mean 9h per day. Around bulb i put black bristol to absorb some light, also bulb is about 20cm abowe tank. I want change my lighting from 18W to about 13-14W



> . What do you do in order to keep algae away with this setup? UV installed, keeping your microsiemens low?


I don't add any ferts (no plants) and use a lot RO water (without nutries). I know that propably there will be some algae (green spot) but i don't care .
In water is a lot compound (?) from leaves and peat (i don't know how this called in english ) wich stops algae (but only in low light).
Damm, my english is so terrible that i can't say what i want :lol:


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## amber2461 (Jun 15, 2004)

One of the best looking SA biotopes I have seen for a long time, I really really like it. Thanks for posting and sharing !


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Hi Norbert.. 
I'm plant junkie but i still love it!! this kind of river systems run very close to home and i see them all the time.. if you want some more leaves let me know.. i can send you some for just the postage.. leaves are free.. you can look it up on the internet for the benefits of "ketapang" or indian almond leaves. i'm sure Squee should know as well its all over the place.. i just have to go pick it up..


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

Yes, this is a true "nature aquarium." I like it, and it's only one of a few blackwater setups that I've seen done correctly.


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## Veneer (Jun 12, 2005)

Norbert S. said:


> Hmm..freshwater sponges? Never heard about it  but i thing there is nothing like that in polish rivers, lakes etc.


I believe some _Spongilla_ spp. similar to the varieties depicted here are to be had in Poland.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Norbert,

That's AWESOME! That's by far the best Amazon biotope I've ever seen, well done!


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## alexanderM (Sep 6, 2005)

personaly, i think this is a beautiful tank! well done!


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

This aquascape is what a TRUE biotope should look like. Few entries in the AGA Biotope category really look like what I envision when I imagine a biotope tank. Usually, they are not actual biotopes (just planted tanks) or have biotypically correct animals/plants but are just thrown together with no sense of aesthetics.

You did an amazing job with this tank and the biotoppe concept, Norbert. Congratulations!

Carlos


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Thanks for all commets, I'm very happy that you like my job .


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## baj (Nov 2, 2004)

Very nice tank. I wont offer any advice as you know what you are doing and you have a great eye. I have no problems understanding what you are trying to say and you and your pictures make a great team in explaining your thoughts


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

i like very very nice.


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## K Randall (Nov 23, 2004)

Beautiful job, Norbert. I have collected cardinals in areas that look very much like this. OIne of my favorite spots is actually a stone basin that gets scrubbed clean of most leaves by fast flowing stream water. When the cardinals collect in the quiet water eddies as the water retreats the look is very similar to this.

As for those who suggest floating plants for this tank, I would say no. While there are a _few_ floating plants in black water areas, they typically are not found in flooded forest habitats that cardinals inhabit. We never have seen any floating plants in areas where we have collected cardinals.

BTW, it is even OK that your water is not too dark... in the stone-bottomed stream I mentioned, the water is only just slightly tinged reddish brown. Is is still clear enough to easily snorkle.


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## Aaron (Feb 12, 2004)

Very very nice. Excellent choice with the simulans too. They are a bit more subtle than cardinals so they don't stand out too much against the monotoned brown of the wood. I will say that you should look for smaller leaves to put in there as it will help give the tank a "bigger" feel. You should also consider adding an Apisto or dwarf cichlid that has a more delicate, iridescent coloration than agassizi. To me, this tank is begging for something like A. elizabthae or even Biotecus opercularis... While you are at it, add a couple pairs of Poeciliocharax weitzmanni...

I'm sorry, I am getting carried away... 

awesome work! keep it up.


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## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

Excellent.


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## JimM (Aug 26, 2005)

Amazing work as always Norbert! This aquascape looks very natural, great job!


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Thank again for all words .
I'm very busy right now so i don't have time for my hobby.

I put in this tank A.trifasciata colony (4+3) and propably i'll remove all simulans.
About leaves...i know that could be smaller but there is a one mayor problem: you can take dry leaves only in winter (february) or in the end of fall so now is not time for that .


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## neilw (Nov 20, 2004)

I think its a wonderful tank well done sir.


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## ringram (Jan 10, 2005)

That's a nice approach and very unique  Maybe I'm bias, but I think it would look even better with a low-growing forground plant on the left side.


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## Leopardess (Mar 14, 2004)

Beautiful. Well done! In a tank that is properly executed, like this one, I hardly notice the lack of live plants

I was just watching a show about cyprus swamps today (focused on alligators) and it looks just like the underwater shots they were showing - the substrate is the exact same color as the bankings were in some places. I realize that it's not the same area, but it looks just like nature


Gotta love a low-maintenance, good looking tank.


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## Dewmazz (Sep 6, 2005)

Very Purdy ... Shame I don't have driftwood pieces like that where I am ...


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## Dewmazz (Sep 6, 2005)

Have you thought about entering it in the AGA Biotope category? Based on the reactions of our fellow forum members, you may have a good chance of placing! Anyone else with me on this 8-[ ?


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Dewmazz said:


> Have you thought about entering it in the AGA Biotope category?


I setup this tank week before contest close so it wasn't ready for enter. I live in Poland and i have big problem with paypal so i can't pay 5$ for my entry. I entry one category this year thanks to some people from AGA which payed for my entry (Thanks again). I could show more tanks but i don't want make the most (?) of other people to pay for me.


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## Dewmazz (Sep 6, 2005)

Oh well. Maybe next year. Shame I'm under 18 and can't apply for a paypal account. I would have gladly entered you in the contest. It would have been nice to see a fellow APCian win in more than 1 category ( ). I thought the entry fee was higher...


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Hi

Some update. I know that pictures are dark but this is best i can do with this light. I removed P.simulans and now this is biotope tank for A.trifasciata


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## FazTeAoMar (Jan 2, 2005)

Very nice Norbert. A true Amazonia biotope. Those apistogramma are one of my favourite. They seem very young. Is it a colony of one male and two female? It´s a pitty they can´t reveal their true colours with that light. A nice habitat for them though. Could you please post water parameters? 

Regards,
André


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

FazTeAoMar said:


> They seem very young.


Yes, they are young so it's take some time to show they true colours . In this tank i have 3male and 4female.

Water:
KH ~1
GH ~1
ph 6.6-6.8 (i don't use peat)
NO3 ~0
PO4 ~0
I use pure RO water


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## chubasco (Jan 16, 2005)

Marvelous, Norbert! A piece of another world in a glass box....a shame it
couldn't be entered in the contest. It would have had the chance to eat
everybody's lunch in the biotope category 

Bill


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Hi Norbert,

caught this thread late. made my eyes pop! great artistic eye...the 'sleepy hollow' wood pieces are really nice. very inspiring.
wonder if you like plecos...hmmm?

make a bigger one and put some altums in it! i will! haha!


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## Dewmazz (Sep 6, 2005)

Wow! It's even better than before! Do leaves release tannic acid?


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## chubasco (Jan 16, 2005)

Dewmazz said:


> Wow! It's even better than before! Do leaves release tannic acid?


Yes, they release tannins in the water, as does the driftwood. This is a 
desired effect for this particular biotope.

Bill


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## ted spade (Dec 14, 2004)

Where did you get the driftwood, store or collected? I really like the tank a lot, it's a true biotope.


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## Aaron (Feb 12, 2004)

Why did you pull the simulans? Shouldn't they be okay in there with the trifasciata? Tank looks great by the way.


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## hedson_25 (Sep 20, 2005)

exelent idea, norbert congratulation i really liked the deatil of the dead leaves.


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## Rub (Jul 14, 2005)

Hi Norbert,
Very very very nice job. Congratulations. Is REAL 
One question: have you found those branches submerged in some river?????


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Hi, Thanks for comments 

Leaves of course decompose in time period and release some acids. This is desired effect for this biotope, in some blackwater river water is like acid (pH almost 3.5-4)

In this tank i have 3 driftwood:
The biggest one in background is from shop. I have this wood from 2years and i used before in "White sands" layout and in my 180l tank (ADA 2005 entry). Another wood is cut by pieces for smallest branches. I had it from my friend, he found it in Mazury ("lakes land" in Poland) year ago or so. Third driftwood(also cut by pieces) i have from peat-bog.

I removed simulans because i want made apisto only tank. I must say that simulans (like other tetras) are "no-brain" fish :lol:. They are so stupid....apistos are more interesting, they have some social behaviour (for example male fights).


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## QuantumCranker (Oct 9, 2005)

Absolutely brilliant! 
As I turn to my algae-ridden CO2 sucking Lightbill driving money pit and growl......  

Awesome job!


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

Very nice! That is definately a tank I'd like to have in my living room. I have though about doing just what you have for a long time and never got around to it. Perhaps I'll have to do a tank like that now. Thankjs for the inspiration


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Norbert, that is a tank I will be proud to lose to. I had *-better-* see that in the biotope category of next year's AGA contest. If not, I'm going to take a flight over to Holland and take the tank away from you. 

Have you thought about adding Ottocinclus to the tank? I've read somewhere that Ottocinclus are caught regularly with Apistogramma and they'll add some neat schooling to the tank.

Regards,
Phil


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Thanks for good words.

Hehe...i don't know why people mislead Poland and Holland , this is not first time (I know that this is only one letter ). This no problem, i'm tall man so i could live in Holand (ROTFL).

I enjoy looking at this tank, apistos are very interesting fish, specialy i like male posing (they look like Apache AH-64 before attack). I have 3otto in this tank and they live in peace with trifasciata family.

For me your words are more inportant that contest. After this year ADA results (i have my contest book from 1-2weeks) i haven't good feeling about all contest. I don't understand why some tanks are so high in ranking. I think next year i start in ADA contest only for free contest book


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Why in the world did I think you're from Holland...you've said enough times that you're Polish. There's quite a difference between the two. I'm sorry!


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## Justikanz (Nov 4, 2005)

Wow... Looks very nice... Sure look like the Amazon black water river bank... Amazing how a plantless tank can look so beautiful...


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Hi

Deeper in Black Water . My amazon adventure is still running

KH 1
GH 1
PH 6-6.5


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## Xema (Mar 24, 2004)

Definitively would be the better home to my littles chocos... You should remove your apistos and send me your tank... Poland is near to me (at least more near than from USA  )

Nice work, nice tank, and nice home page!!! 

Greets from Spain


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## jerseyjay (Jan 25, 2004)

Norbert, 

Exception work. This biotope is fantastic and looks almost like a live picture of what you are trying to immitate. Clearly a winner in my book !

I like the "blur" effect all aroud


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Thanks for coments



Xema said:


> You should remove your apistos and send me your tank...


Hehe..good one 



> Nice work, nice tank, and nice home page!!!


My home page is still under construction, I'm very bussy man right now so i don't have time for anything - that's why i must do break in my hobby (i sold my 48lts tank and now my only tank is this SA biotope)



Jay said:


> I like the "blur" effect all aroud


I was playing in PS and this is one of my beginer experiment <rotfl >


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## nonamethefish (Feb 25, 2004)

This is a beautiful tank! Agree that it looks very natural. The only thing I see is the sand/gravel bottom. In blackwater habitats does this bottom actually show? I'd think it would be mainly silt/detritus or otherwise a layer of leaves.

But far better than anything I could do.


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## chubasco (Jan 16, 2005)

Norbert, I don't think those two leaves are in scale with the setting. I'd take them out and give them back to Adam and Eve[smilie=h: If you could find some
smaller leaves, or a dead branch with leaves, would be better, YMMV. Thanks
for sharing, still a great biotope! 

Bill


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

I need(or i should say "tank need") time for "produce" silt/detritus/Peat dust or whatever ....give me 6months more 

Winter time in Poland, i haven't time so missed "leaves season" ...now trees are "bold"


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## matthewburk (Sep 27, 2005)

Nice tank, I love this look. I think enclosing it in a canopy instead of having an open top would add more to the mood.


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