# CRS Mortality Rate



## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

I have a 20g CRS only tank that has been up and running for over a year now with the CRS in it. its heavily planted and filtered by a sponge filter. During this time i've experimented with different amounts/regularity of water changes to see if the mortality rates of newborn CRS would improve (mine are very low). Nothing has helped, I even purchased some powder food from gabeszone that helps with mortality rates.

Anyways, these are my tank conditions:
Temp 74 F
PH 7.6+
GH 9
KH 6

I believe now that it must be related to the high PH. My API PH test kit comes with a PH Down solution, which recommends adding 2 drops per US gallon (40 drops total for my tank).

Am i correct in diagnosing the PH as the likely cause of poor mortality rates? If so, how much will the 40 drops reduce the PH (I don't want to make it a rapid shift and cause shrimp to die)?
How are the GH/KH levels for CRS?


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Hi, I have low mortality rate. 

I think you may be correct. I keep my shrimp in very soft water with acidic pH. Water change or not they are very healthy.

You do not need special brand of food or mineral rock.

I do suggest using aquasoil or other acidic pH promoting substrate. Only use natural item to lower the pH. Using chemical like pH down will cause undesired water hardness. CRS like simple water, not complicated with chemicals.


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

This is an already established tank with inert substrate, I'd rather not upset the whole tank to put in new substrate. What other options are there?

Has it been proven that using PH down negatively affects CRS?


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## killacross (Apr 29, 2010)

you could use something like peat moss in the filter to lower ph...it will probably stain your water with the released tanins


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

HockiumGuru said:


> This is an already established tank with inert substrate, I'd rather not upset the whole tank to put in new substrate. What other options are there?
> 
> Has it been proven that using PH down negatively affects CRS?


That is understandable. Ive added aquasoil to an existing tank with great results.

To see the reason measure tds of water. Add pH down. Measure tds of water again. Notice the increase. This type of heavy water is not ideal for crs.

Using something like peat moss is a good idea.

Explain how water gets from its source then into the tank. What is the source and what do you do to it?

Whatever the case may be a booming colony is an indication you are doing things right the opposite is a bad sign. The crs in my opinion are a bit more difficult to keep and not so happy in all parameters unlike the cherry shrimp which is happy if there is water.


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## JohnPaul (Aug 28, 2006)

CRS prefer soft, acidic water. You have hard, alkaline water. If you can get ANY survival at all on your babies, you are doing quite well. Trying to adjust the pH via chemicals is a disaster waiting to happen too. If you seriously want to breed CRS, you probably need to set up another tank, use ADA Amazonia as your substrate, and a mix of RO & tap water as your water.

Otherwise, if you just want a tank of nice colorful shrimp, there are quite a few species out there that would love your tank conditions--basically any of the _Neocaridina_ species would do. (Those include Red Cherry Shrimp, Yellow Shrimp, Blue Pearl Shrimp, and Snowball Shrimp).


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

Ironically, I have Cherry's in there, and they only just had babies for the first time in well over a year... with surprisingly high mortality actually.

Are there any other option besides aquasoil? Its kinda hard to get my hands on the stuff here in canada.
I can get eco-complete.


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## JohnPaul (Aug 28, 2006)

HockiumGuru said:


> Ironically, I have Cherry's in there, and they only just had babies for the first time in well over a year... with surprisingly high mortality actually.
> 
> Are there any other option besides aquasoil? Its kinda hard to get my hands on the stuff here in canada.
> I can get eco-complete.


Eco won't help you, in fact some people report their hardness/pH actually goes UP when using Eco-complete. In terms of substrates, Amazonia is the only one I know of that can lower pH and/or help remove hardness. The only other option would be to add either a HOB or canister filter to your setup, and run the water through peat. But I'm really not sure how much of a difference that would make, and you would have to take precautions on the intakes of either of those types of filters to make sure baby shrimps don't get sucked in.

I'm surprised to hear your RCS (Red Cherrys) aren't breeding like mad. When RCS are happy & healthy, they should breed like rabbits until they almost overrun the tank. If yours aren't, then I would suspect one of two things is happening:

1. Water quality issues. You mentioned you have a heavily planted tank. Often people with heavily planted tanks also have a heavy fertilizer regime. In general, ferts and dwarf shrimp don't play nice. Even something as simple as nitrate levels can be responsible; aquarium plants usually prefer nitrate levels 10-30 ppm, but dwarf shrimp do best when nitrate is at zero, or as close to zero as possible. Things like Flourish and Flourish Excel can also cause issues for even hardy dwarf shrimp when they are dosed at the "proper" levels. Most people I know who keep dwarf shrimp in planted tanks either don't dose those at all, or if they do, they dose at WAY less than the recommended dosing levels. The same is true for any micronutrient fert, as almost all of them contain copper which is highly toxic to shrimp. If you dose that stuff at all, be sure it is way way way less than what the package tells you to do.

2. Food issues. Although in general biofilm makes up the majority of their diet, it is also true that in a well-maintained planted tank where plant growth is effectively keeping algae growth to a minimum, sometimes the shrimp won't breed due to a perceived lack of food. There is also the phenomenon (probably not present for you right now) where shrimp populations tend to self-regulate to the size of the tank. I have found that my shrimps will breed like mad and then once they get to a certain population density, it is almost like someone flips a switch and they all stop breeding.

FWIW, I have recently been in touch with Brian from Brian's Tropicals (who has had a lot of success breeding CRS in hard, alkaline water...which is definitely NOT the norm). His advice to me (regarding trying to breed CRS in my pH ~ 7.5 water) was that the two most important things were "super clean water" and "tons of food." So for what it's worth, there it is.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

There is always someone out there that is keeping their livestock in off parameter. It will never change. The question to ask yourself is...do I want an uphill battle?

Yes. It is true that crs can eventually be bred in hard alkaline water. In fact the picture of my baby shrimp on my site was bred in harder alkaline water. That was one of my only babies and what I would call an unsuccessful experience with crs. Now that I have gone with the parameters the shrimp prefer I am doing much much better.

Ever think of collecting rain water?


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

Brilliant said:


> There is always someone out there that is keeping their livestock in off parameter. It will never change. The question to ask yourself is...do I want an uphill battle?
> 
> Yes. It is true that crs can eventually be bred in hard alkaline water. In fact the picture of my baby shrimp on my site was bred in harder alkaline water. That was one of my only babies and what I would call an unsuccessful experience with crs. Now that I have gone with the parameters the shrimp prefer I am doing much much better.
> 
> *Ever think of collecting rain water*?


No I hadn't why? Ironically we just got dumped on big time today too


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

With a 20g, it wouldn't be too costly to buy R/O water for your tank. Of course you'd need to have a place to buy it. It's not too costly and might be the easiest thing, barring rain water....


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

HockiumGuru said:


> No I hadn't why? Ironically we just got dumped on big time today too


Rain water is soft. It is very ideal.

I would collect it from my gutters and filter it with sediment and carbon block.


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

Brilliant said:


> Rain water is soft. It is very ideal.
> 
> I would collect it from my gutters and filter it with sediment and carbon block.


Interesting, I didn't know that. i'll have to collect some and run a few tests on it, see how it rates.

Tex Gal - I may have to try that, there are some people that sell it in the area, perhaps i'll give that a shot for a bit, then perhaps consider buying my own r/o purifier.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Once the tank is soft keep it that way. Dont add calcium or baking soda or any other additives to increase hardness.

My soft water Tonina tank is 60ppm tds and I havent changed the water in over two weeks. Your water hardness should not increase so rapidly...if it is you have something in the tank conflicting with crs and ideal parameters. In my mind this needs to be fixed.


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

are there no concerns regarding external pesticides, bacteria, bugs getting into your tanks via the rain water tho?


and any recommendations on an r/o unit>? what do they usually run at?


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## bluegardener (Jun 5, 2006)

Yes, you do need to be careful of these things with rain water. Ideally, you would set up a small tank, cycle it, preferably seeded from your other tank to speed matters up, establish a few shrimp in it, then use this to test the rain water or pH-lowering chemicals. The easiest way to test for chemicals in the rain water is to use shrimp. To reduce contaminants, collect rain water in clean containers, not off your roof or something. Keep the water covered when not raining to keep bugs & other animals out.
R/O's would be safer and less variable.
A question for you: what is the chemistry of your tap water? I'm wondering if it is your tap water or something in your tank that's making the water hard.


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

bluegardener said:


> A question for you: what is the chemistry of your tap water? I'm wondering if it is your tap water or something in your tank that's making the water hard.


Tap water:
PH 7.6+ (measures over the drop test solution scale)
Gh 125.3ppm (7 drops)
Kh 89.5ppm (5 drops)

Here's the basics of the tank:
Substrate: 3M colourquartz black
Filter: Sponge filter
Hardscape: 1 small to medium small piece of malaysian drift wood, 4 pieces of slate (1 large, 2 small, 1 medium)
Heavily planted (java fern, phillipine fern, anubias, java moss, windelov fern, marimo ball, and 1 other stem plant, cant remember the name)


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## bluegardener (Jun 5, 2006)

The stuff in your tank sounds fine. I didn't realize what you meant by 7.6+. With a KH that high, I'm guessing your pH down solution would not be very effective. Your water is buffered very well and will be reluctant to change. These are not good conditions for CRS either. I think Tex Gal has the best idea with mixing R/O water with your tap.


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

bluegardener said:


> The stuff in your tank sounds fine. I didn't realize what you meant by 7.6+. With a KH that high, I'm guessing your pH down solution would not be very effective. Your water is buffered very well and will be reluctant to change. These are not good conditions for CRS either. I think Tex Gal has the best idea with mixing R/O water with your tap.


I will look into the r/o option then. Any suggestions on a possible unit? For the 20g tank on its own it prolly wouldn't be worth investing in one, but I plan on a colony of OEBT's in the very near future, and if i'm gonna put down that kind of $$$ i'm not taking any risks.

The CRS still do mate/spawn/birth whathaveyou, with some babies surviving, but its a pretty low rate. Colouring is fine too, so is activity.


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## bluegardener (Jun 5, 2006)

HockiumGuru said:


> I will look into the r/o option then. Any suggestions on a possible unit? For the 20g tank on its own it prolly wouldn't be worth investing in one, but I plan on a colony of OEBT's in the very near future, and if i'm gonna put down that kind of $$$ i'm not taking any risks.


I don't know myself but you might check the equipment section



HockiumGuru said:


> The CRS still do mate/spawn/birth whathaveyou, with some babies surviving, but its a pretty low rate. Colouring is fine too, so is activity.


That's good.


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## HockiumGuru (May 2, 2008)

where can I get r/o water? foudn distilled water at the grocery store, same thing?


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