# Human waste as fertilizers (organic fert)



## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

Hi guys,

Was doing some research into plant fertilizer sources recently when I came across some articles on using human urine as fertilizer for terrestrial plants and crops. The table below shows the composition of our waste products:









*Source: ebook form "http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html"

I am skipping the part on manure and concentrating on the urine part. The contents of urine has the 3 macro-nutrients, calcium and carbon. The concentration of N is pretty high compared to P and K. I tried dosing pee (my own) into my small 2 gallon planted tank with platy frys and ottos with no other fert source and minimal feeding. The result after 2 weeks was okay growth and what seems like potassium deficiencies(yellow edges and pinholes and curled leaves). I dosed K from Seachem Potassium and the plants turned a much nicer and darker green though those leaves with pinholes died.

Before experiment(pardon the mess):









After 3 weeks:









Side View:








Note the colour of the narrow leaf java ferns.

I am a little unsure of how much "organic fert" aka "pee" to dose since the composition chart shows the nutrients in percentages instead of ppm.

Looking at SeaChem Potassium's guaranteed analysis of 5% soluble K20 and using APC's Fertilator calculations, dosing 10 ml of this 5% soluble K20 gives 5ppm of K per 100 litres of water.

So based on those percentages in the urine composition chart, would the below nutrient calculations be correct?

Tank capacity: 100 litres
Dose of urine: 10 ml

Nitrogen: 15% = 15ppm
Potassium: 3% = 3ppm
Phosphorous: 2.5% = 2.5ppm
Calcium: 4.5% = 4.5ppm
Carbon: 11% = ?ppm?

If the above calculations is true, all I need to do is just to dose K2SO4 for the potassium to balance out the nitrogen and I am all set. Anyone has an opinion/comment on this?

By the way, the platy frys and ottos are all healthy even though I once squirted 2 ml of pure pee (through a dispenser) direct into the face of a really hungry platy fry. The fry was just a little "pissed" (pun intended) and swam away. No 3rd eye or abnormal fins spotted...so far...

Avan


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

Why? I mean... Are bulk dry ferts not accessible. 

If its just for experimenting then I see your point but... pee in your own tank, even in small amounts is pretty daring.

Urine is sterile so it shouldn't cause any problems from that. 

I guess I just can't mentally see myself adding my own urine to a fish tank. More power to you if you can get it to work for you. I think most people will stick with other forms of fertilizers though.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Maybe, I am off base here, and someone correct me if I am wrong. Most people recommend against using terrestrial plant fertilizer spikes as they contain urea and urea can cause ammonia spikes endangering fish and fueling algae growth. 

By using pee, you could be courting an ammonia spike which down the line may fuel an algae growth or worse endanger your fish. And from what I understand, even if an ammonia spike does not kill your fish, it could cause permanent gill damage.

Just out of curiosity, have you tested ammonia and nitrites? I commend you for experimenting to see for yourself. I have always said that sometimes to find out an answer to a question, the best way is to run your own experiment(s) and see what happens and forget what the gurus preach.


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

slickwillislim said:


> Why? I mean... Are bulk dry ferts not accessible.
> 
> If its just for experimenting then I see your point but... pee in your own tank, even in small amounts is pretty daring.
> 
> ...


Why? Dry ferts are indeed accessible in my area. And in fact is rather cheap since I can get 2 years supply of dry ferts for less than 30 USD.

The question I am asking is " Why not?"

Dry ferts maybe cheap but it does add to cost of maintaining a planted tank along with electricity and water changes. Urine has advantages of being free, portable (in bladder), fresh (straight up) and an unlimited supply. Besides, I am wasting 3-6 litres of water just to flush my own pee down the toilet. :bathbaby:

"Daring"? Potassium Nitrate is one of the 3 components of gunpowder. If we already using this supposedly dangerous chemical to dose in our tank, what is the danger of urine? Of course KNO3 is made from urine in the past...but I digress 

It does carry a certain stigma though and might be difficult for to people to get over the initial shock and disgust. I must say I still have the occasional revulsion now and then but I am getting over the psychological part.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The nitrogen in urine is urea as far as I know. Urea breaks down to ammonia. Ammonia triggers algae growth. That is why I wouldn't consider using this admittedly cheap, available fertilizer in an aquarium.


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Maybe, I am off base here, and someone correct me if I am wrong. Most people recommend against using terrestrial plant fertilizer spikes as they contain urea and urea can cause ammonia spikes endangering fish and fueling algae growth.
> 
> By using pee, you could be courting an ammonia spike which down the line may fuel an algae growth or worse endanger your fish. And from what I understand, even if an ammonia spike does not kill your fish, it could cause permanent gill damage.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, have you tested ammonia and nitrites? I commend you for experimenting to see for yourself. I have always said that sometimes to find out an answer to a question, the best way is to run your own experiment(s) and see what happens and forget what the gurus preach.


I got this off my all-time favorite website, Wikipedia, on the subject of human urine.



> Urine contains large amounts of urea, an excellent source of nitrogen for plants. As such it is a useful accelerator for compost. *Urea is 10,000 times less toxic than ammonia* and is formed by the combination of the byproducts of deamination (2 NH3 molecules) and cellular respiration (1 CO2 molecule). Other components include various inorganic salts such as sodium chloride (the discharge of sodium through human urine is known as natriuresis).


During the experiment, I having been dosing different amounts of urine ranging from a few drops (earlier stages) to 10-20ml (mid-stages) and finally settling on 1-2ml in the final stage. There were virtually no algae be it green water, green spots, hair algae...etc..etc..Maybe my 2 ottos in the tank played a part but I know they won't touch hair algae. Note in the first picture of my tank the one before the experiment, I had split half a moss/algae ball and left it in the left corner of the tank. The hair algae turned brown and looks sickly compared to the other half in my other tank. I had removed it and placed it in my other tank to save it from dying.

I am particularly keen to find out the effect on fauna and thus added the 4 platy frys to the tank where the original occupant was the 2 ottos. I have observed the movement and feeding habits and found nothing out of the ordinary. They behave like any other fish frys I have seen...curious and always hungry. No visible gill damage can been seen yet though I have not opened one up to see the insides.

I must mention that there were the death of 10 cherry shrimps during the experiment (added in the first week) but this information must be balanced by the fact that my tank is a small one (2 U.S gallon) thus anything dosed in the tank will have a larger effect as compared to a standard 20 gallon tank. Also...this tank has a history of being anti-shrimp and anti-snail since day 1 when I started it last year. Total shrimp death count BEFORE experiment was 30 cherry shrimps (batchs of 10) and 10 low-grade crystal red shrimps. I have till date murdered 50 shrimps...may their souls reach shrimp heaven rayer:

I still pondering the reason behind the shrimp death in that small tank since my other tank houses only ghost shrimps but with much lower mortality rate even with a shrimp-eating turtle around.

I have not done any sort of testing for my tank except watch the plants growth rate and the feeding pattern of the fish in both my tanks. I noticed quite a number of fish in my main tank are pregnant and they even peck at my fingers when feeding so I guess no adverse effect yet. I am going the E.I. way of dosing fert so doing weekly water changes, hopefully I can detect any harmful levels of toxic buildup before any major incident.

Thanks for the commendation and encouragement. Hope my experiment can contribute to plant enthusiasts in this lovely community.


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

More stuff to add on urea:



> Urea can be irritating to skin and eyes. Too high concentrations in the blood can cause damage to organs of the body. *Low concentrations of urea such as in urine are not dangerous.*


Will drop little trinkets of info and trivial now and then when I find them.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Sounds like the next logical step is to freeze-dry your fecal matter and place it in the substrate to see if it aids heavy root feeders. Look out Seachem!


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Hmmm...okay, interesting. So, if someone were on medications for certain illnesses, was pre-diabetic or even diabetic, or was a heavy vitamin or supplement user, what could his her urine do to tank stability or the fauna. I mean peoples' urine makeup is going to vary based on use of meds, supplements, vitamins/mineral, and even sugar content if they were diabetic or pre-diabetic. The urine would certainly contain byproducts of drugs and vitamin/mineral supplements, not to mention variations in sugar depending on health. Even in very small quantities, I could only speculate that it could have adverse effects on fauna given their minisucle mass. So, you would really have to weed out the effects of these and testing them would raise a moral and ethical dilemma.

I am not knocking your results or anything, I think that you cannot really deny the visible benefits gained by your experiment, I was just playing Devil's Advocate and just raising some issues that could effect consistency of replicating this. I guess, you would need to use a standard urine sample across the board that was free of excess sugar,med and supplement byproducts to replicate this.

Lol, as long as you don't start drinking this stuff. I know there is people who are into this. And I am not talking about those that get sexual pleasure out of Golden Showers Either. There are people who swear by the benefits of urine therapy. No BS, check out the references below. Personally if I got so sick and urine therapy was the only option, I would just say no: please shoot me between the eyes and put me out of my misery! Sorry to get off topic. 
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/urine.htm
http://www.lifepositive.com/Body/traditional-therapies/urine-therapy.asp
http://www.universal-tao.com/article/urine_therapy.html


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> Sounds like the next logical step is to freeze-dry your fecal matter and place it in the substrate to see if it aids heavy root feeders. Look out Seachem!


In most agricultural areas, feces or manure have been used in the past to fertilize the soil though mainly cow and chicken droppings instead of human droppings are used. Freeze-dried dung will be something new though. Nowadays farms are turning to chemical fertilizer since they can be gotten at bigger quantity and faster than waiting for manure to become compost.









*Source: ebook Spirulina - Micro Food, Macro Blessing by Harald W. Tietze

Above shows the mineral content of vegetables grown organically(manure and compost) and those grown via other means (chemical fertilizer). The mineral content of those grown organically is higher and would be more nutritious compared to those grown via chemical ferts. With increasing demand for bigger crops at faster intervals, more farmers are using chemical ferts to produce vegetables which are almost empty calories and fibers. We then turn to vitamin supplements to get what we should have gotten from vegetables and fruits in the first place. Again I digress...too many spin-off topics..

I am not looking to human fecal matter for fertilizing our substrate since too much risk of fish digging up the substrate and releasing it into the water column. But it might be a viable subject to study and research in the future. Perhaps making a stable compost first before adding to the tank? More ideas for the future.


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Hmmm...okay, interesting. So, if someone were on medications for certain illnesses, was pre-diabetic or even diabetic, or was a heavy vitamin or supplement user, what could his her urine do to tank stability or the fauna. I mean peoples' urine makeup is going to vary based on use of meds, supplements, vitamins/mineral, and even sugar content if they were diabetic or pre-diabetic. The urine would certainly contain byproducts of drugs and vitamin/mineral supplements, not to mention variations in sugar depending on health. Even in very small quantities, I could only speculate that it could have adverse effects on fauna given their minisucle mass. So, you would really have to weed out the effects of these and testing them would raise a moral and ethical dilemma.
> 
> I am not knocking your results or anything, I think that you cannot really deny the visible benefits gained by your experiment, I was just playing Devil's Advocate and just raising some issues that could effect consistency of replicating this. I guess, you would need to use a standard urine sample across the board that was free of excess sugar,med and supplement byproducts to replicate this.
> 
> ...


Frankly, I am also concerned with the part about people on medication and how unabsorbed portions can be released into urine. I wonder what are the concentration level of chemicals in patients taking medications. Do drugs like marijuana and LSD or heroin get passed out in toxicity levels high enough to be harmful to aquatic faunas? I can imagine seeing my swordtails flapping their fins hard trying to fly like a bird. 

I am no doctor nor have the scientific knowledge of a researcher so hopefully someone in this forum can help out if they have the expertise since we are crossing borders from plants and aquarium to human biology.

I myself am currently on medication for hyperthyroidism and have taking carbimizole since 18 (now 26). I wonder if the fish can taste the medication. Supplements-wise, I have been taking multi-vitamins and magnesium/calcium pills since I am a carnivore and not much of a vegetable-eater.
Perhaps my fishes are benefiting from the extra supplements on top of the spirulina, astaxanthin and beta-carotene they are getting from the fish food I am feeding. Could it be the cause of the big-bellied pregnant fishes in my tank? If I go on a diet of just carrot juice and spirulina...maybe my swordtails will turn a bright neon orange?

The reason I am posting these stuff here is to get feedback and comments so that we can bounce ideas off one another. I need a mirror to tell me where the problem spots are so I can have a better perspective. I am more worried with getting low or no response since it is an indication that I am alone with these ideas and that I might be crazier than I think I am. So I am really grateful for any response I get from the people here.

If personally I am taking extremely toxic stuff like high consumption of alcohol(I limit myself to 1 can of beer every 2 days) or drugs that is dangerous to human, then I would not be pursuing this fertilizer method and stick to dry ferts. I think this might only be workable for healthy people with no unhealthy habits...wait...hmmm...doesn't this include everyone in this lovely forum?! 

I got a little worried when I saw that you have been collecting links to those websites...being able to get them so quickly means you have them bookmarked in your browser for your secret pleasure...and you knowing people who are into urine-drinking? ..... Ok ok I am just kidding  Not really looking into that area yet...but then again with this open-ended mind that I have... I might indulge into a little "re-cycling" if you know what I mean :heh:


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## ap1492 (Nov 25, 2006)

Electrolyte concentrations in urine vary considerably from batch to batch, so unless you were able and willing to strictly maintain a diet and drainage schedule you'd be dosing significantly different concentrations at each squirt.


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

This would make more sense to me if the N in urine was NO3 and not urea.

Fecal matter in the substrate? Depending on how loamy your tank is, that's probably mostly what it is anyway


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

When I was kid, about 14 or 15, I tried pee, and I killed the one guppy I had in my five gallon tank. I can't remember how much I put in, but it was around a half cup, a lot more than your 1 or 2 ml. I have also tried urea, and have found that too much killed the Daphnia I had in the tank. There were no fish in that tank. Nitrate is far less dangerous. A better way to use pee would be to put it in some soil in a covered container, let the bacteria in the soil convert the urea and proteins in the pee to nitrate and other nutrients, and then, after about a week, extract the nutrients from the soil with water and put that in your tank.


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

ap1492 said:


> Electrolyte concentrations in urine vary considerably from batch to batch, so unless you were able and willing to strictly maintain a diet and drainage schedule you'd be dosing significantly different concentrations at each squirt.


One of my concerns too...but I figured that no matter how accurate our nutrients dose is there will always be some factor that alters the accuracy like say the amount of fish food you feed, the amount of fish waste, the exact volume of water, new plants or fish added, hidden decaying plant parts..etc..etc..

This method of fert dosing is more estimative rather than accurate since I sometime change the parameters of my tank like say adding new plants and fish or changing the fish food like say from flakes to wafers(supposedly disintegrate in our tank slower). Going for the exact quantity of fertilizer to dose is pretty tedious stuff since each tank has its own individual characteristic. For example, I have a turtle in my main setup which excrete a considerable yet inconsistent amount of nutrients into the water which then flow into another tank which is a planted tank with cichlids and livebearers.

I am testing this method on both my main setup and nano tank. The nano tank has much more consistent parameters and the results of my fert dosing is pretty good in my opinion since in the past I know nuts about dosing ferts and actually only rely on feeding and fish wastes to provide nutrients which caused quite a number of plant damage and death. Now my plants are looking pretty good and my water is crystal clear.

I wonder if anyone is trying this method or has tried this method before so we can compare results.


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## Avan Giam (Jun 6, 2006)

HeyPK said:


> When I was kid, about 14 or 15, I tried pee, and I killed the one guppy I had in my five gallon tank. I can't remember how much I put in, but it was around a half cup, a lot more than your 1 or 2 ml. I have also tried urea, and have found that too much killed the Daphnia I had in the tank. There were no fish in that tank. Nitrate is far less dangerous. A better way to use pee would be to put it in some soil in a covered container, let the bacteria in the soil convert the urea and proteins in the pee to nitrate and other nutrients, and then, after about a week, extract the nutrients from the soil with water and put that in your tank.


Urine can be used to do compost and than used as base fert with a layer of gravel covering it. Your extraction method is a good idea too. Maybe much more acceptable than my direct dosing though the extra effort of converting it may be a tad tedious for some. Especially since most people are used to the simplicity of dosing dry ferts.

Regarding urea from Wiki :
"Urea can be irritating to skin and eyes. Too high concentrations in the blood can cause damage to organs of the body. *Low concentrations of urea such as in urine are not dangerous*.

Of course the effect of urea on human skin will have a drastically different effect on fish. Perhaps diluting the urine with water from the tank before dosing it will be safer than direct injection.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

man dry ferts aren't that expensive, thats just gross, and the charts cant be correct becuase every organic waste a human produces is different, if you don't want to do dry fets just buy some fish, they can produce the macros you need for healthy plant growth. im sure if anyone lives with you they would hate to see you routinely "fertilizing" your tank


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## tkos (Oct 30, 2006)

Unless there was a way to filter urine and get rid of dissolved organics, salts, meds, etc... and just leave the major macros in there I just can't see this as a good idea. Especially for a self confessed carnivore that takes multi vitamins. At best most multi vitamins are mostly excreeted anyway as your body can't take in such large quantities at a time.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

< Biologist/Chemist

Still, *Ewww!*

Someone had to say it. Besides, those of us w/ taller tanks might run into "other" problems with this method...


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## PMD (May 3, 2005)

You guys must not have wives.


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## k-maub (Feb 10, 2007)

This is far and away the greatest thread ever. I'm almost tempted to try it myself. Almost.

I'll chime in with the crowd that's worried about the consistency of the urine chemistry. I mean, if you're properly hydrated (some ungodly amount of water consumption per day), your urine will actually be clear and copious, lacking many of the "nutrients" you'd otherwise expect. Maybe if you had a consistent enough diet and got it at the same time of day each time....

I dare someone to figure out how big a tank is necessary to allow a single person to relieve themselves in there exclusively.


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