# just checking...



## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

just checking but is niko okay? i haven't seen much activity and his website invertzfactory.com has been down for some time...


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Neil,

Thank you for asking.

InvertzFactory is in the process of shutting down. The freshwater pet fish market cannot justify selling rare and extremely rare quarantined and guaranteed fish. As I've said before - generally speaking we value a hamburger more than a tiny wild caught fish that is so rare that doesn't evern have pictures on Google or information about it.

Here's a good example - at the time we sold the Yellow Rabbit Sulawesi Snail for about $5 in the US retailed for $30 in Germany, online. We could not even think of offering these snails for $10 - they will simply not sell in the US.

Most freshwater hobbyists see this hobby as "cheap" and this is what stagnates it. Long time ago I started to make fun of my own monster thread here on APC about the cheap tiny DIY CO2 diffuser - because being cheap aggravates me now and for a good reason. "Cheap" keeps this hobby in the dumps. In 2009 we had imported 250 species of fish - 80% of them rare or ultra-rare. One single thing concerns the majority of the freshwater folk - "How cheap can I get this?". It was not unusual to get requests for a $0.50 discount on a $10 order. Yes, fifty cents!

It was a pleasure dealing with people that knew exactly what they wanted and appreciated the effort to bring it to them in an outstanding shape.

It turned out that there is no such thing as "rare fish". There are only fish that do not sell well in the US and that's why they are very seldom imported. I hope you see the irony of this situation.

Things that I finally admited do not matter at all:
- Quarantine
- Unparalleled packaging
- Full money back guarantee (shipping charges returned to you too)
- Always available to respond to inquiries/questions
- Always extra fish in the box.

That's what we did for 2+ years. Noone else offered or offers such service. Things are now back to sellers like Lotsofish or WetSpots who can get you anything for cheap, period.

It was much fun to import, keep, and sell the fish. We got to see the behavior of fish that will most likely never be imported again in the US. But we also learned first hand about:

- The cruelty of the pet fish trade (200 Kuhli loaches sent to us in a bag with 2 pints of water!)
- The scams
- The diseases that run rampant
- The death rate 2-3 weeks after arrival (600 green neon tetras gradually dying in the course of 2 weeks)
- The way a fish comes from Asia on Monday, it's displayed in a US pet store tanks on Tue, and swims in your tank on Wed bringing you all kinds of goodies that you do not suspect
- What's right to do - for the fish and for the customer

We still have some fish for sale - if anyone is interested send me a PM.

The lesson learned from the whole experience is simple - know your market and the prices it maintains. Or should I say - know the mentality of the customer base.

--Nikolay


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## psusaxman2000 (Dec 22, 2009)

Isn't it sad how much people to "respect" some things. It really does come down to how "cheap" and easy it is to get started, but if you someone really wanted to get into it, they need to (or should) research and spend some money. Unfortunately nothing anymore is really done for the fun of the hobby or experience and more for the money or lack there of if your spending it.

Kenny


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

live and learn, huh Niko? 
Yeah- it's amazing how cheap people can be. And for you to learn about all the sordid practices, that had to be disheartening. Well, thank you for all your contributions to us on the forum(s)...and all for free.


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## HolyAngel (Nov 3, 2010)

Wow niko, that really sucks :/ 
I see rather understandably why you closed, very sad.

I for one really appreciate all the effort you've put in both on the forums and with your site/store. The site/store will be missed by those of us that aren't "cheap" and know what it takes to stay in this hobby and keep it growing..

Thanks for the update, and thank you


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah, thanks for all your efforts with IvertzFactory. I got a taste of the "cheap" factor recently when I was teased about paying $2 each for snails (not to mention pay for shipping...man that really got them laughing). I attempted to explain that these were no ordinary snails (nerites) but was just met with a blank stare. Some people just don't care about quality or rarity or performance.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

I will be sad to see it go, let me know if you know anything../ yes there is cheap ways of doing stuff in this hobby, I say have fun with it.. but also respect it...

friendship is also good. 

you just take the good, with the bad...
and the bad with the good..

my advice for people stay away, from the bad stores and bad hobbiest.

what gets to me, is mis information. oh yeah to grow that java fern you will need 4 t5 ho put bulbs, an dthis plant soil etc.. pushing products are bad, or the saltwater guys who get the big corals for esp. $50.00 then they frag it 8 times and say etc frag will be $35.00 and a guy who is esp is eatting roman noodles for a week so he can still have money till next pay check, goes and gets two of thefrags and thinks he is getting a good deal...

yep it's sad when people valve a a cheese burger more then a nice fish..

oh and also can't for get about good deals, and hearing" well that's just too much too expensive I can just go to wall mart...


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

niko said:


> Neil,
> 
> Thank you for asking.
> 
> ...


I'm sad to say that is the truth. whats intresting is the reef community in the US has no probs with shelling out big bucks for small items.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm sorry to have gotten to know of Niko's business by the time it had already hit the downhill end. It's so tough to make it in this economy being more then a hobbyist breeder when the big chains are all about number. First getting back into the hobby, I used the big chains for my fish but it didn't take long to figure out the longevity of the fish didn't last long. I now use them only for dry goods and rarely for livestock. I prefer to get my live stock from other hobbyist compared to a chain store.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Some practical things:

After being an insider I have to say that I'd buy rare fish only from:

1. Frank at FranksAquarium. 

2. Local breeders.

3. A hobbyist that needs to get rid of their fish.

4. Germany (joking, wish we could do that).

--Nikolay


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Frank is a good guy, just sucks that he does not ship during the winter.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

yep sad but true, but being in both saltwater and freshwater it's hard.

I see a lot of people in the salt hobby dish out big bucks for small stuff. 
esp. - dart fish... are $30.00/ 3 for 75.00 at most lfs around here. I can get better in shape and in better health ones throw a hobbiest who also has a shop for $10.00 each 3 for $25.00 and he is local. that is how I got my 6 red dart fish for my saltwater tank.. 

people will shell out big bucks for saltwater fish, but the nice fresh water fish die I stopped going to the petco and petsmart along time ago. just like robert, I only go in there for prime, fish food, and equitment.. (dog food too).
or I surf craigslist..


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Some of the best fish (especially Discus) I've gotten were bought from hobbyists locally on craigslist. That said, it's mostly a matter of luck finding them, not like you can order up something specific. 

Those of us seriously into the hobby know the value companies like yours offered, but we also know what we want to keep and don't usually mix a lot of random fish. We also tend to keep the fish alive.  Whereas those less experienced, don't know the difference, expect the fish won't live long and just want something to keep their kids happy. 

The overhead costs of such a business are quite high, so it's completely understandable that it doesn't work. Unfortunately, it also means it's challenging to find a source for good quality fish when we want them. Fish Gallery never seems to know what they're getting in, more mainstream stores order the same things all the time. Most online places won't sell to individuals. TCA auctions are a good option, but naturally trend towards african cichlids which those of us keeping planted tanks rarely keep. I don't know what the answers are... 

Michael


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

ahaaaaaaaaaaa got my work out. dogs where in the front with my dad, and they pee-d on a bush that had a cat and took off after it.. catching a over weight lab easy, catching an american terrier mix.. not that easy.. 

tca auctions are good. angels and discus are cichlids. so if looking for those I would go to the auction it's in two weeks. people also bring plants, and equitment... I go to see friends I haven't seen in a long while.


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## Andy Ritter (Nov 26, 2008)

Hey niko,

I also hate to hear that Invertz Factory is being shut down. The fish that I bought from you were definitely of top quality, and the care that was taken to get them to me was second to none. However, I understand why you have chosen to get out of the business, even though I agree that it is sad, and honestly, quite pathetic, that people are as cheap as they are in the United States. In my opinion, this mentality is ruining our choices for decent products across the board. Years ago, when you went to a store to shop for something (anything - clothes, home improvement products, car parts, etc.), the products available were usually of good quality and you received a good value for your money. Over time, cheaper products started showing up (usually from Taiwan) that some people would buy instead just because they were cheaper. I on the other hand, would avoid purchasing these products because I was raised with the mentality that you get what you pay for. As time has gone by, so many people have chosen the cheaper products over the quality ones, that the companies have thrown in the towel and have just started importing poor quality products across the board. It infuriates me that when I go to the store to buy something, that I'm forced to purchase some cheap crap because the quality ones aren't even on the shelf for me to choose. Obviously, this same mentality affects the aquarium hobby.

I for one apparently must be extremely fortunate because I have a wonderful local fish store that does get in a wide variety of fish, and they do a great job at quarantining and also have individual tank systems set up for the different types of fish (versus the big chain stores that have one huge filter system that all of the water goes through for every fish, regardless if it is a live bearer, cichlid, tetra, etc.). They don't have many of the specialty species that Invertz Factory imported, but they are still good. I refuse to buy ANYTHING from the big chain stores because if it wasn't for them, there would be many other locally owned stores still around. I don't care if I could save a few dollars buying my food and other supplies at the big box stores. I've seen too many of the local stores close because they couldn't make ends meet, so if I have to spend a little more in order to help them stay afloat, then I will.

Keep in mind when I say this that I was born here and am an American, but the overall mindset of many Americans really irritates me. You have so many people that have this cheap mindset and don't understand the value of something. I can't stand it when you see someone talking on their $400 iPhone, which they spend $150 or more a month to use, driving their gas guzzling Hummer, wearing their overpriced designer clothes (which are made in some third world country for pennies on the dollar), living in their overpriced home, and then they'll complain about how much something costs! Give me a break. I have read your comments before about how irritating it is to you that so many people on this forum want something for nothing, and are lazy and just want to be told what to do instead of researching it themselves, and I feel the exact same way. It gets very old seeing one new thread started after another that is asking the same questions over and over. Our society has become so much about having everything right now, and it seem that few people are willing to spend any time or effort to actually do something for themselves. I wonder how long it will take before China takes over as the World's strongest country, since they have over 1.3 BILLION people, many of whom are trying to better themselves and move up in the world, compared to our 300 million people, many of whom are looking for the easy (and cheap) way out.

Oh well, I'll get off my soapbox.

Sorry again that the fish business didn't work out.

Andy


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Niko, I have really appreciated all the effort that you and Pedro put into Invertzfactory. I am very privileged to call you friend and be able to pick your brain about the hobby. You are an amazing person to know. You know a lot about a lot of things. You inspire a lot of people. I really do believe you get what you pay for. I believe it's better to have quality over quantity.


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

that sucks... its like in a few years google and amazon will be in big control of everything. we're doing a eco-column project in my bio class and we had to have an aquatic habitat. it was a piece of cake for me, but the others were complete helpless idiots. aquarium keeping to them is still goldfish in a bowl and added with impulsive buying you have a pile of dead fish. so i'm probably not even talking about the right subject here... but general media and stereotypes have pretty much stagnated the hobby. why can't our tanks be as good as the japanese??? i mean they've gone to the point where they can keep freshwater fish in saltwater and vice versa!!!
well i'm sorry to hear about the downfall of invertzfactory. a few years ago when i caught wind of it, i thought it was overpriced and decided to buy from cheap importers. but after buying those pygmy cories from you, my opinion completely changed. the same thing is happening with LFS...  any honest good company will have a hard time competing with all the other "cheap" stores.
AND FYI... stuff made from taiwan is not crappy... its the stuff made from china and HK. taiwan's stuff is actually pretty decent/good quality. The fish/plant keeping hobby in taiwan is very developed as well, each fish store i went to was like an AFA in SF.


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