# Troubles with FloraBase



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey folks,

I'm having some unexpected troubles with one of my tanks. I've got a few species of plant in there that have traditionally been super good growers for me that aren't doing diddly in this tank. They are as follows: Rotala rotundifolia (Green and normal),Rotala sp. "Vietnam", Glossostigma elatinoides, and Pogostemon stellata 'Broad Leaf'. Well, that last one could be Limnophila aromatica, I never could tell the difference and someone sent me both in one shipment. 

Tank specs:
20g high
FloraBase w/substrate heating cable
3x36w PC
Plenty of CO2 and nutrients. 

My big problem is lack of growth in these species. They should be growing like crazy with the abundance of nutrients, but they are stunted and dying.

Has anyone has problems with FloraBase in a high tech tank like this?


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

The first thing I can think of is that Florabase should give you horribly incorrect pH, ie CO2, readings. I know you are a very experienced gardner but I woudl double, triple check that first. Second thought might be that the probably lower pH levels caused by Florabase and the CO2 addition might be affecting the substrate and nutrient uptake via the roots.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Limnophila aromatica has leaves with a purple/red color on both sides. Pogostemon stellatus has leaves that stay bright green on top with purple undersides. Also, aromatica tends to grow more horizontally and branch often. Got a pic?


----------



## cousinkenni (Jan 24, 2005)

Hi Phil,

I must agree with Dennis on this one. I have just about the same amount of light on my tank (2 X 55w on a 20gallon). And I was having some trouble about a month ago with some of those same plants (rotala species).

I knew it couldn't be from lack of nutrients (use E.I. method plus tested) so I turned my attention to CO2. I recently made several CO2 reactors (external inline with some advice from Gomer) and the last few days (almost a week now) have really turned the plants around.

FYI my reactor is taking about 2 bubbles per second to keep up with the damand of the plants.

Ken T.


----------



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Phil,

Take some of the substrate and run some tests on it using RO water. I would be concerned about impact to KH and GH mostly.

Also, take a turkey baster and take a sample of the substrate solution. Test it to see if there's any difference with the water column.

How old is the substrate?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Phil Edwards said:


> Has anyone has problems with FloraBase in a high tech tank like this?


No.
I have a 10g with 65 watt pc & FloraBase, it grows the **** out of some Stellata, Vietnam along with Byxa, L. Pantanal, Micro Sword, Tonina, Eriocaulon and HC, actually I have never seen these plants look better.
I use probably 95% RO water too, with a dusting of peat below the sub.
Only plant I have had trouble with in this tank was Dow-noi, not sure if it was the acidity or the ultra soft water..

As some have stated, check that C02 again, or just turn it up for a week and see what happen, you have alot of light.
You say "Plenty of C02 and Nutrient's" care to elaborate? how and what are you dosing? and did you peat the sub? that is a big plus if you did!


----------



## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

That's strange. I've assisted my LFS with a planted tank using Florabase, and it grew some nice plants, particularly the crypts and anubias. Even stranger is that a few weeks ago I had problems similar to yours in my own tank with Flourite substrate. Out of the blue, certain plants began dying for apparently no reason. I couldn't figure it out, and still haven't figured out what may have caused it other than the water co. fiddling with the water. I kept dosing nutrients and kept the CO2 up, and after a couple of water changes & weeks, everything seems back to normal. Sounds like an X-file to me.


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I'm with you Avalon. I set up a very similar system at the store I worked at and the plants I'm having trouble with at home are growing really well there. I do have a better CO2 system and much higher lighting compared to the store. 

Dennis,
I knew that would be a problem and in fact haven't done any pH/KH/CO2 comparisons for that reason. I know the CO2 is sufficient from past experiences with this same tank when I could do the comparisons. 

Art,
How funny you mentioned those tests, I was going to run them next week when I get to the lab.  The substrate is three months old now. 

Wolfen,
I add .5 tsp KNO3, K2SO4, MgSO4*7H20, 2 drops Flora 24, 3 drops Botanica Fe, and 3 drops of Fleet Enema every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I didn't add any peat or mulm to this tank. This tank is sort of a trial setup for RedSea products. It's using their heating cable, substrate, Flora24, and CO2 diffusor to see how they work. I didn't want to use too much outside of their product line aside from the nutrients they don't make, adding peat and mulm to the substrate would have been "cheating".

Thanks for the ideas and input folks, please keep them coming. 

Regards,
Phil


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Not sure what you mean by .5 tsp KNO3.

I personally think you are under dosing P04 and TE, the plant's are telling on you!!


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Wolfen, 

That could be and I increased my PO4 dosage today. We'll have to see how things work out for the next few weeks.

What still confounds me is the condition of the tank at the store. It has the same RedSea equipment but gets a lot less attention and care than does my tank and the plants I'm having trouble with are thriving in the tank at the store. That's why I was wondering if more experienced plant people have had similar problems.

Thanks,
Phil


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I doubt it has anything to do with the substrate.
CO2 is fairly much the evil villian in most cases if light/nutrients are similar.

Their CO2 diffuser needs set properly.
I assume it's a disc?

I'd add less KNO3, 1/4, not 1/2.
I'd add more PO4( a lot more)
I'd add a lot more traces(just use a general).

Nothing will do well unless the CO2 is jamming.
Easy way to tell you do not have enough: reduce the lighting.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Tom,

Yeah, the diffusor is a disc type job and required some silicone to keep from leaking. I reduced the lighting by 36w for a week and nothing really changed. I added an external bubble counter last night and noticed that it showed a different rate than the internal counter did. Up went the gas.  

What really confuses me is that the stands of Hemiantus micanthremoides, Hygrophila difformis, and Ludwigia palustris are growing gangbusters while the others aren't doing so well. None of the "trouble" species gave me trouble in the tank they came out of. The crypts, anubias, and moss are growing well too, but that doesn't surprise me either. If it were only a CO2/nutrition issue the should all be doing poorly. Curiouser and curiouser. 


Everyone,

This tank is well past anything i've done before and is one huge experiment for me. I've never had a tank with all of the trimmings like this one and ruling out the substrate is actually a relief. I've used it before with success, but not in a situation like this one which is why I was so confused.

I plugged the third light back in to ensure even lighting and will be working on nutrition now. 

Thanks for you input, it's been helpful,
Phil


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Did you add mulm?
Lots of weeds from the start?

It really sounds like there is competition for limited nutrient resources.
But........pearl grass should do well if the moss is doing well.

Give the CO2 some time, a few days should be able to tell.
Add some SeaChem EQ also.

Getting the diffusers to run correctly requires eyes, much more than test.
Keep them clean, once a month cleaning etc.

Use a solenoid to shut them off at night as well.

You know you can rule out the Nutrients by adding enough.
Light is 1.5 w/gal, you can up to 3 or 4.5 easy enough, so that is addressed.

You'll have a lower growth rate with less light, so careful not to compare the growth rate exspectation too much. 



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

Phil.
How is the tank doing?


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Check my Riccia thread in Aquascaping.


----------



## Scipionyx (Apr 5, 2005)

Florabase does NOT like the addition of CO2. It is designed to hold the PH between 7.0 and 6.5 . Addition of CO2 messes with the chemistry of the water that Florabase is designed to hold it at. Try turning off the CO2 for awhile and see what happens. You also might want to read the Florbase package, pertaining to just this matter. No need for addition of CO2 !!!!! The package also states that for continued quality production of your aquatic plants, Florabase should be replaced I do believe it says, on a yearly basis. I used it once, and gave it up. Hope this helps .......


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Scipionyx said:


> Florabase does NOT like the addition of CO2. It is designed to hold the PH between 7.0 and 6.5 . Addition of CO2 messes with the chemistry of the water that Florabase is designed to hold it at. Try turning off the CO2 for awhile and see what happens. You also might want to read the Florbase package, pertaining to just this matter. No need for addition of CO2 !!!!! The package also states that for continued quality production of your aquatic plants, Florabase should be replaced I do believe it says, on a yearly basis. I used it once, and gave it up. Hope this helps .......


What do you mean does not like it?
Plants prefer CO2 over any form of carbon, pH is really a non issue, there are perhaps 20 studies that show this. Unless FB adds CO2, and a grerwta deal over the years replacement times..........it's not going to do the same as adding CO2 gas......As long as there is enough CO2 for the plants to be saturated, the pH can be over a fairly wide range, 5.8-7.4 or so over a wide range of KH's. Perhaps lower with super soft water, although I would not entirely suggest folks do that..........

There was never a need to add CO2 in the first place, non CO2 planted tanks grow plants just fine, just slower.

So that statement is fine and has a back up, it does not say not to add CO2, which is what you are implying..............it just says something extremely obvious, folks do not need CO2 to grow plants, the same can be said for Onyx sand, Turface, soil, sand, etc

I have FB, I add CO2 without issue........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------

