# co2 and the NPT, chemistry changes?



## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

Can added co2 cause nitrite, nitrate spikes? Things were going well with my little NPT (5.5g). I started adding co2 to encourage growth and the plants exploded. My Chem was good. 0.25 (chloramines),0,0. Then I added a betta and I've got 0.25, 3ish, 40. 60% water change and two days later its back to the same. Any ideas? The tank is well planted, I think.

I was going to pick up some Hornwort and see if that helps.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

No, CO2 will not cause NO2 and NO3 spikes. My guess is that the Betta is the culprit! He is doing what happens naturally, generating ammonia. The tank wasn't fully cycled, so now the ammonia is being converted to NO2, and more slowly, the NO2 is being converted to NO3. The plants are consuming the NO3, but they can do that only if they have enough phosphorous, potassium and trace elements they need to grow that fast. You need CO2 to get fast plant growth, but then you also need all of the plant nutrients to support that fast growth. Fish poop isn't usually enough to supply those nutrients once you have more than slow plant growth.


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

So I need to supply the trace elements. What's the easiest method? Seachem "something"?
Or eliminate the CO2 to slow down the growth rate?


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

I am caught in a dilemma. I Started co2 because I wanted to get my plants growing. However, I don't know that I am up for trying to figure out (or can afford) fertilizing at this time. My tank started as NPT (soil, gravel, decent light, fast growing plants). If I stop dosing co2 what is going to happen?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You can dose just Seachem Flourish comprehensive, which is a trace element mix, with small amounts of the macro nutrients. Or, since potassium is usually the first of the nutrients to be in short supply, you could dose API Leaf Zone, which is primarily a potassium source. Or, the cheapest in the long run would be to buy dry chemicals like http://nilocg.com/ei-based-npk-csm-b/ The last option would let you adjust your dosing to match the rest of the parameters of your tank, and the amount would be enough for over a year of dosing, probably 2-3 years.

When you stop the CO2 addition you can get an algae attack, especially BBA, which is really disgusting. But, you could reduce the CO2 addition slowly, a small amount less every few days, until you finally stop entirely, and that might not trigger an algae attack.


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

OK. Thanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looking at the picture, I can't for the life of me see that your tank is actually an NPT. If there's a soil layer, I can't see it. The gravel is a much larger size than I would recommend. The lack of a good 1" inch thick soil layer explains why the plants aren't growing well and you feel the need to dose CO2 and artificial fertilizers. The plants are not growing near well enough to control the nitrogenous products. 

Plants in a 5.5 gal should be able to take care of far more than the ammonia of one little Betta. You may have dying plant roots contributing to the excess nitrogen.

That said, thank you for sending the picture. As they say a "picture is worth a thousand words." I hope you can get the nitrites down. They can really stress fish, and this little beauty deserves better.

The Hornwort will help, and I would remove some of that gravel. The gravel layer is way too deep. Organic matter falls between the cracks and is probably generating plenty of ammonia.

Attached is a picture of 5 gal NPT tank with which I bred Bettas and raised 25-30 of their offspring. Notice the nice thick soil layer. Fantastic plant growth without CO2 and fertilizers... Mother Nature at work.


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

There is a 1" layer of MGOPS. I just edged it away from the glass and so only the gravel shows there. I also know there is root growth as I had to pull one out and there was long new roots. Gravel is just pea gravel. 

We will see what happens.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I guess I jumped ahead of myself on this one.  Sorry.

The plants (Elodea, Sag) you show tend towards liking hard water. Do you know if your water is hard or soft? (If your water is soft, plant growth could be held back by a lack of the hard water nutrients- calcium, potassium, magnesium, bicarbonates.)


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

Local water report say 140ppm average, so slightly hard. 

I'm cutting back the CO2. Doing daily 60-70% water changes. I also put a sponge filter in, even it just for temp. The NO2 is dropping slowly. Plants seem healthy and there is definite growth. I'll post another pic tonight. I had just thought that the plants were going to suck up all the NH3/NO2, and I wouldn't need to worry. Maybe I misunderstood? My concern is for the betta. No signs of distress, but I want the best for him.


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)




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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for posting picture. That's a beautiful fish. And I see that you have added the Hornwort. Smart move.

I still think that the gravel size is too large. Organic matter will fall in between the cracks and become increasingly anaerobic over time--weeks and months. Then, it will generate ammonia and H2S.

If it were my tank--and I understand that it isn't and that you are doing a pretty good job here of protecting your Betta. However, I think you could get better plant growth and have a healthier tank with a few minor adjustments.

I would remove much of that gravel and then add sand to fill in the remaining "cracks." ("Play sand" from Home Depot is awfully cheap and it just needs a little rinsing.) I also would reduce the substrate depth at the front of the tank. If the tank substrate (gravel cracks now filled in with sand) slopes nicely downward towards the front, organic debris would collect at the front where you can easily siphon it out. You might not even have to remove it, because debris laying on top of a sand/gravel substrate would stay aerobic--as opposed to falling in deep cracks at the back of the tank where it can cause problems. (Hope this makes sense.) 

Moreover, a lowered substrate at the front of tank might be a little more pleasing to the eye--artistically speaking. 

I have meant to ask you how long this tank has been set up?


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

Tank has been set up for about a month.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

greyuriel said:


> Tank has been set up for about a month.


I had suspected as much. Your MGOC soil is relatively new and is giving off the extra nitrogen that you are measuring. The plants are helping keep it under control, but nitrogen release from a freshly submerged soil is not surprising. In my book, I wrote about chaos in freshly submerged soils (pp 130-31). It doesn't happen immediately, because it takes the bacteria a couple weeks after the soil is submerged to become a population force in decomposing the organic matter, the result of which may be nitrogen release. This soil nitrogen release may have coincided with the addition of your Betta.

Give your tank another month to let the bacterial decomposition of soil organic matter die down. During this tricky but temporary time of soil chaos (about 8 weeks), you are doing all the right things--water changes, monitoring ammonia, adding hornwort, etc. The extra nitrogen is mainly from the soil, not your fish.

Once the soil settles down, the plants should be able to easily take care of whatever little ammonia your fish generates. Also the soil contains nitrifying bacteria, and it will take a little while for their numbers to get cranked up where they will be able to help out.


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

Ok thank you. I'm waiting to get my copy of your book so I can get learning more. I have pulled out some gravel from the front and added a thin layer of sand. I will keep monitoring.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sounds good!


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

Finally at .25/0/5. Time to do some trimming though.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Substrate looks much better. How is your Betta doing? Do you have any plans to breed him? He's so beautiful.


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## greyuriel (Apr 22, 2017)

Flavio the Magnificent is active and appears healthy. He is definitely a beautiful fish. I am interested in breeding betta, but space and time limitations make it out of the question for now. I am also a little intimidated by the process of sorting out the fry and figuring out what to do with non-keepers, etc.


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