# First Tank Journal: 9.6 Gallon NPT



## erose (8 mo ago)

Hi all. I tried posting this on 5/24 but it was never approved, so I'm trying again now that more time has passed. Here is an introduction to my first tank.

Set-Up Details
• Tank: 9.6 gallon (Lifegard brand)
• Heater: 50W Eheim Jager heater, set to 72°F
• Lighting: 18-24" Hygger LED light, with a photoperiod of 5 hours on at 100%, 2 hours off, 6 hours on at 80%. Receives dappled natural sunlight during late morning.
• Substrate: 1" layer of Bonnie's Harvest Raised Bed soil (sifted) mixed with ~1/4 cup crushed oyster shell, capped with 1.5" layer of 2-4mm gravel

Plants
• Floaters: Dwarf water lettuce, Red root floaters, Amazon frogbit, Salvinia minima
• Stems (left to right): Ludwigia repens x arcuata (emersed), Rotala spp., Limnophila belem, Ludwigia brevipes, Bacopa caroliniana (variegated and normal), Pearl weed
• Other: Nymphoides hydrophylla (Taiwan lily), Eleocharis belem

Day 1 (5/21/22, morning after planting)









Day 9 (5/29/22)







I have been monitoring the water parameters and will include a chart for reference. There are no GH and KH values until 5/26 because I realized that I had been performing the test incorrectly (silly me, giving myself headaches for no reason).








​The nitrogen cycle has been suspiciously smooth. The soil I chose had a low nitrogen content (0.12%), so maybe this has helped reduce fluctuation. Or maybe fluctuation is yet to come.

From my tap water's GH and KH values of 3, I was able to raise these to around 9 each through the use of Wonder shells, baking soda, and crushed oyster shell (though I feel that the oyster shell has probably contributed less than the others).

The plants appear to be thriving. The Limnophila is the most visually obvious success case; despite some leaf melt, it has grown several inches and is now about an inch shy of reaching the surface. The lily lost two leaves in the transition, but has already put out three more. The water lettuce roots are growing long, and the plants are putting out babies. The red root floaters are flowering beautifully (which I can't take full credit for, they looked lovely when I bought them). Much to my surprise and delight, the pearl weed and the E. belem have been pearling considerably throughout the photoperiod. This sight in particular made me incredibly happy...

E. belem root, 22 hours apart







​The root went from just visible to touching the soil in less than a full day, growing about an inch in length. 

As anticipated, not all of the plants are so successful. The Bacopa is suffering from significant leaf melt, but has healthy leaves and is growing more. I suspect it needs more time. The Amazon frogbit was very unhappy. Its roots regressed, and its leaves yellowed and developed brown and white spots. I have removed it after several days of decline and replaced it with more water lettuce. Perhaps it was diseased, or some complicated allelopathy has hindered it. I'm not distressed; the other floaters are thriving well enough.

There has been a potentially ugly recent development. I was worried that the hitchhiker snail did not have enough to eat because he became more mobile around the tank, so I sprinkled pieces of half an algae wafer around. I know that Diana recommends feeding the tank with fish food, but I may have added too much too soon. Just a day after doing that, I noticed small white worms on the tank glass, and their population has boomed since then. I have also noticed a web of filamentous white algae forming around the E. belem, which is the area of the tank that receives the most light. There are also hair-like organisms on the glass, and I'm not sure if they are hydra or more algae. They don't move much, so I think they're algae, but it's still concerning. I will include a few photos of these interlopers for identification.

First worm found (5/26/22)









Fuzzy glass (5/29/22)









Algae (5/29/22)







​Besides the addition of fish food, I'm not sure what other reasons could account for the explosion of these two populations. Insight into possible causes and management would be appreciated. The tank is new, so this could just be part of the settling in process, but I'd like to address any potentially catastrophic problems sooner rather than later.

To close off this long post (I never claimed to be brief), I am thoroughly enjoying watching this tank's progress. It has been going much better than expected. I attribute its current success to the wealth of information in Diana Walstad's book, and forcing myself to take a few weeks to plan despite my excitement to get started.

Thanks for reading. Here are some flowery red roots for your enjoyment.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I just replied to your earlier post and see that my tardy advice is now somewhat irrelevant, but hopefully there's a message for others. 
Tank looks very nice and promising.
Your floating and blossoming red plants are beautiful. What a treat to see them this morning!


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## erose (8 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> I just replied to your earlier post and see that my tardy advice is now somewhat irrelevant, but hopefully there's a message for others.
> Tank looks very nice and promising.
> Your floating and blossoming red plants are beautiful. What a treat to see them this morning!


Thank you! I get great joy out of them. Their flowers are so little and delicate.

To your reply to my last post: Less of a testing anomaly, more of a tester anomaly. I promise I can read instructions. 🤦‍♀️ At least the GH/KH are fine now.

Because the nitrogen cycle has been so stable and there is an excess of nutrients based on the appearance of algae, I decided to add a group of shrimp yesterday (5/30/22) to help out the snail with clean up. I now have two small amanos and five ghost shrimp and they have been settling in nicely.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Two week update...








Day 15 (6/4/22)​Check out the plant growth! The lily is absolutely taking off. It grows nearly an inch taller every day and puts out new leaves every other. The water lettuce roots are fanning out and the RRF continue to bloom. The E. belem is putting out tons of runners and new blades. The bacopa is finally starting to improve, growing new leaves and side shoots where the others rotted. New growth on the emersed ludwigia is starting to look more aquatic. The pearl weed and E. belem pearl all day long. I will attach some more tank pictures below if you'd like to see.

And oh my, the invertebrates. I enjoy them immensely. I now have 2 amano shrimp and 2 nerites as permanent residents. I have 5 ghost shrimp as well, but I plan to give them to a friend's tank and replace them with some wild-type neos in the near future. Little baby ramshorns are showing up as well. They are just so small and cute, I melt.







​I think the invertebrates and the incredible plant growth are helping to keep algae at bay. There are still good amounts of fuzz and green spots on the glass though. The ramshorns and shrimp don't really feed on the glass, only the nerites do. Should I bother cleaning it off, or will it take care of itself in time? I will attach some pictures of the algae as well.

I've also noticed that the new growth on the salvinia, rotala, and limnophila are very light green to white in color. Is this concerning? The water parameters have not changed. The plants are growing so fast that I can't imagine it's a nutrient deficiency, but maybe. The color is honestly quite attractive, but if it's indicative of an issue, I want to fix it. Here's what they look like:















​I spend so much time sitting in front of this tank every day that it's giving me back pain. I should probably get out more lol. But it's just too much fun!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah, the while leaves are concerning. It's lacking the nutrients to make chloraphil (nitrogen and iron) in the water column.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Yeah, the while leaves are concerning. It's lacking the nutrients to make chloraphil (nitrogen and iron) in the water column.


My nitrogen readings are very low. Do you have any recommendations for addressing this?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Dirt tanks are good for rooted plants, but not so much for floating plants.
I would add a little nitrate & chelated iron. Seachem flourish should work.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

As much as I like my floaters, I don't think I would have them but for their ability to uptake nitrates. No nitrates=no frogbit=no salvinia. But, that's just me.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Dirt tanks are good for rooted plants, but not so much for floating plants.
> I would add a little nitrate & chelated iron. Seachem flourish should work.


Doesn't Flourish have relatively low NPK? I think it's a nitrogen deficiency based on the symptoms and my low nitrate (<5.0ppm), so I don't think that Flourish would be the best way to address it. If nitrogen is what they need and Flourish contains mostly micronutrients, I would risk overdosing on those and causing other problems.

In chapter 5 of her book, Walstad writes, "Planted tanks without adequate fishfood additions would probably become rapidly depleted of major nutrients nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus." I haven't added anything since that algae wafer last week. The rooted plants like the grass and the lily are doing fine, but the water column feeding stems and floaters are showing the deficiency. Will fish food help feed the water column?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

yeah, fish food will help. I just noticed you don't have livestock! Fish poop would help add nutrients into the water column.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> yeah, fish food will help. I just noticed you don't have livestock! Fish poop would help add nutrients into the water column.


I only have 7 shrimp, 2 nerites, and a slowly growing horde of baby ramshorns. I do see them poop, but they definitely don't have as high a bioload as fish. 

I think I will try fish food since I already have it. I'm a little worried that adding it will cause an algae spike though. I'm also considering buying KNO3 in some form instead, which would give me a more direct answer as to what is limiting the plants. Both options probably risk algae. I'll have to be careful not to add too much.


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## MudLily (9 mo ago)

erose said:


> Doesn't Flourish have relatively low NPK?


Yes, very low.

If you don't mind deviating from the purist natural approach, NilocG Thrive C (for low-tech) is a more comprehensive fertilizer. In my experience, it can be a good complement to soil as it also contains an excel-like non-gluteraldehyde based carbon supplement. However, you might want to experiment with doses smaller than what's recommended on the bottle at first, until you get a sense of how algae responds.

I feel there are situations, even with soil-based tanks, where it's valid to think of your substrate as a nutrient source for "grazing" while you "feed" sparingly with a comprehensive fertilizer. It can take a lot of the guesswork/experimentation out as long as you don't feel it's cheating.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

yes, Flourish is low in NPK so little risk of algae. If you add low amounts the risk of algae is low.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

So this might be a dumb idea... but my nitrate levels are disappearing and I'm trying to come up with ways to quickly feed the water column as cheaply and naturally as possible. I have this spare tank with about two inches of water containing plant scraps that I've just been letting sit, just to see if the scraps do anything with no intervention on my part. I tested the water in there and the ammonia is high (~4.0ppm) because of the decomposing plant material.

From what I've gathered, the fish food fertilizer option seems to be intended for replenishing the substrate nutrients. I could be wrong. I don't know how well it addresses water column deficiencies.

Would the scrap tank's water be able to act as an extremely diluted nitrogen fertilizer? Since it's so dilute, I don't think the inhabitants would be harmed like they would be if I were to add a concentrated ammonia fertilizer. 4.0 ppm is only 0.0004% ammonia after all. Using this calculator, I would need to add over 2000 mL of the scrap tank's water to increase the ammonia concentration of the main tank from 0.25 to 0.5 ppm. So it might not be enough to have any effect at all, either by improving plant nutrition or negatively impacting inhabitant health.

This was a random idea I had. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Aside from that, I'm still not certain it's a nitrogen problem at all. New growth is white. On the Limnophila, the old growth appears to be yellowing/spotty. It's hard to tell for the rotala. The salvinia old leaves are green, but some are dying off. So I can't tell if this is a mobile or immobile nutrient deficiency.

Oh, and an additional observation: the RRF are still growing in very red. Does this indicate that it isn't an iron problem?

Either way, for now I'm going to feed fish food until I get more insight. I appreciate any help from you more experienced aquarists.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Well I knew floaters were nutrient hogs, but it's a different thing to watch it happen.

Rather than adding the scrap tank water to the main tank, I decided to try "feeding" the floaters directly by moving them to that tank yesterday afternoon. I left them there overnight and tested the water again this morning. And, wow! The ammonia readings reduced *from 4.0ppm to 0.5ppm*.

That was a shocking difference, but the Ecology of the Planted Aquarium chapter VII supports the possibility. Figure VII-1 shows that _Elodea nuttallii,_ a water column feeding plant, reduced ammonium concentration from 2mg/l to 0.5mg/l in 16 hours. The floaters were in that tank for 17 hours. Walstad also discusses the potential for plants to take in nutrients in quantities above the critical concentration (almost 2.5x more for N in her tank), and the preference for ammonia over nitrates both in speed of and energy required for uptake.

I considered the possibility that the floaters introduced nitrifying bacteria that may account for the reduction. I did not take NO2 and NO3 measurements yesterday, but today they were 0 and >5.0ppm respectively. But I don't think bacteria are fully responsible for the reduction for two reasons:
A) NH4 -> NO3 occurs in a 1 to 1 ratio throughout the two step reaction, in that 1 NH4 results in 1 NO3 by the end. The NO3 test was closer in color to 0 than 5.0. While not precise, this indicates to me that the plants were responsible for at least some uptake of nitrogen. Not all NH4 was converted to NO3.
B) The scrap tank has very little surface area on which bacteria could colonize. The tank has no substrate, so besides living and dead plant matter, there is only glass.

Very cool to see hungry floaters in action. I think I'll leave them in there another day to see how they affect the NO3 reading. An image of the floaters in the scrap tank is attached. Could be a trick of the light, but the salvinia looks a little greener.

Yesterday in the main tank, I added about 1/6th of a bottom feeder tablet dissolved in water in little drops around the plants that were suffering the most. Mostly around the left back corner on the rotala and limnophila. This morning, there was a web of white algae around those plants. It was not dense, and the algae was mushy so I just brushed it off with tweezers. I will monitor the algae growth throughout today and won't feed the tank until tomorrow if I notice more.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Now you need to feed the nutrient monsters everyday


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> B) The scrap tank has very little surface area on which bacteria could colonize. The tank has no substrate, so besides living and dead plant matter, there is only glass.


That.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Now you need to feed the nutrient monsters everyday


If they can just utterly clean out the water column of nitrogen to this extreme, no wonder my tank became deficient while I wasn't feeding it. The poor suffering stem plants, overrun by these voracious floating monsters.



johnwesley0 said:


> That.


Yes, this seems to be the most convincing reason that the floaters, not bacteria, are responsible for the observed ammonia reduction.

Now to figure out how I'm ever going to be able to keep these things fed. Goodie.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

erose said:


> If they can just utterly clean out the water column of nitrogen to this extreme, no wonder my tank became deficient while I wasn't feeding it. The poor suffering stem plants, overrun by these voracious floating monsters.
> Yes, this seems to be the most convincing reason that the floaters, not bacteria, are responsible for the observed ammonia reduction.
> Now to figure out how I'm ever going to be able to keep these things fed. Goodie.


Most people have fish in the tank and are constantly adding fishfood. My guppies get more than they need, so they are fat and plants get plenty of nutrients. Attached is 10 gal tank with 6 male and 6 female guppies, plus shrimp and snails. 
For NPK, I would add fishfood or your _magic potion_. For the floater, I would add chelated iron (FeEDTa) or a micro-nutrient fertilizer.
Based on your posts, I think you pretty much know what to do and what's going on and enjoy tweaking and tinkering.  Terrific!


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## erose (8 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> For NPK, I would add fishfood or your _magic potion_. For the floater, I would add chelated iron (FeEDTa) or a micro-nutrient fertilizer.


You called it. Water lettuce are showing chlorosis, and their roots are growing desperately out of control. The other floaters, salvinia and RRF, don't seem to be chlorotic but it's hard to tell because the RRF are so red and the salvinia is still very light green from the nitrogen issues.

The "magic potion" seems to be helping the submerged plants. They are greener overall and continue to grow rapidly. None are chlorotic either, I'm guessing because they have access to the soil iron.

I am a little frustrated about these deficiencies. Going into this, I expected to have the opposite problem! I understand how I drained the tank of NPK by not feeding it, but the lack of iron is confusing me. The book suggests that the soil should contain plenty of iron, and within the first few months, freshly submerged soil chaos should release enough of it into the water column.

My pH is ~7.4, so maybe that is reducing available iron in the water column? Or maybe the lack of water movement without a filter is keeping the plants from being able to get the nutrients they need due to the formation of a "depletion zone" around the exchange surfaces?

I was really hoping to go fertilizer-free, but at this point it looks like I have to choose between keeping the water lettuce or following the purist approach. I like the water lettuce too much to watch them starve, so I guess I'm trying chelated iron. Sigh.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oxygen in the overlying water makes iron unavailable to plants. After the iron enters the water column it is converted to iron oxides, which plants cannot use.

You write: "Water lettuce are showing chlorosis, and their roots are growing desperately out of control." 

I think your water lettuce looks just fine, sort of like mine in some tanks. If those roots can reach the substrate, then you will see _real_ growth. If your other floater continue to grow, I would just relax. 

I resisted iron fertilization for decades, because I wanted to stick with a purist approach. But I've given in. Once in awhile if I see real iron deficiency and my floating plants are dying, I'll add FeEDTA. 
However, since (2021) I started keeping tanks without filters or aerators. Now, I have almost no problem with iron deficiency in my floating plants. [Filter bacteria and aeration (oxygen!) will remove soluble iron from the water column.] 

These filter-less tanks are great. I now have 9 guppy breeding tanks with only floating plants and potted plants--no deep substrate. I've described them in a recent article 'Potted Plants for Fish Breeding Tanks' on my book's website: Planted Aquariums


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## erose (8 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Oxygen in the overlying water makes iron unavailable to plants. After the iron enters the water column it is converted to iron oxides, which plants cannot use.


Does this always occur? If so, how do floating plants get iron at all? 



dwalstad said:


> I resisted iron fertilization for decades, because I wanted to stick with a purist approach. But I've given in. Once in awhile if I see real iron deficiency and my floating plants are dying, I'll add FeEDTA.


What would "real iron deficiency" look like? I thought the visibly darker veins compared to the rest of the tissue on the water lettuce leaves looked like chlorosis. The plants did not look like that when I got them; their leaves were uniform in color and the veins were not visible.



dwalstad said:


> However, since (2021) I started keeping tanks without filters or aerators. Now, I have almost no problem with iron deficiency in my floating plants. [Filter bacteria and aeration (oxygen!) will remove soluble iron from the water column.]
> 
> These filter-less tanks are great. I now have 9 guppy breeding tanks with only floating plants and potted plants--no deep substrate. I've described them in a recent article 'Potted Plants for Fish Breeding Tanks' on my book's website: Planted Aquariums


In those tanks, do you just rely on livestock movement to bring water to the plants for nutrient exchange? I have a very lightly stocked tank, so I've been stirring around the water when I add my "magic potion" a few times a day to help with that. I know that terrestrial plants can deplete the water directly around their roots of nutrients, and that's why mycorrhizal associations are so beneficial. I imagined that the same thing could happen in stagnant water, since your book mentions that medium flow is beneficial for plants.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

My tanks all contain well-fed shrimp, snails, and fish. All moving around and excreting. Tank is filled with plant nutrients!

In nutrient-depleted habitats, water movement can be vital for bringing scarce nutrients to plants. As nutrient levels increase, one would expect that water movement becomes less important.

When I got rid of the pumps, filters, bubblers etc from my tanks last year, I wasn't sure that my new system would work for my guppy breeding and rearing tanks. But it did, even better than I predicted! No nitrate build-up and ammonia/nitrite is zero. 

I think you just have to devise a system that works for your tank(s). Stirring the water when you add nutrients is a good idea.

There may be mycorrhizal fungi associated with the roots of floating plants, just as some have been found on a few substrate-rooted aquatic plants. Good point.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

erose said:


> What would "real iron deficiency" look like?


For my salvinia it mostly looked like stunted growth. I can tell how well they're doing based on their growth speed and root development. When they lacked iron it didn't look like the deficiency charts online, they just didn't grow. The roots looked a bit gnarled and the leaves stayed very small. When I started dosing iron the roots really started shooting out and the leaves got at least 3x bigger.

I suppose it's not exactly a "purist", but then, I suppose that was discounted when I started adding wonder shells for water hardness and dechlorinator to condition the tap water. It's not like I'm on a regimen exactly - I just throw some iron in when the floaters slow down and stop when they look good.



dwalstad said:


> When I got rid of the pumps, filters, bubblers etc from my tanks last year, I wasn't sure that my new system would work for my guppy breeding and rearing tanks. But it did, even better than I predicted!


On my newest tank I am using a bubbler to keep the oxygen levels up. I have a lot of fish and plants in there and I worry they will start suffocating at night without it. Did you have any issues with this when you removed the aeration?


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Of course as I am about to begin my summer classes out of town, strange happenings occur. For the next two months, I'll be spending my week days in another city and only coming back here on the weekends. My roommate will keep an eye on the tank while I'm away.

So, 4 week update...

Stems were getting tall and floaters were blocking light, so I decided to give the tank its first trim on 6/14. Here's a before and after. Nothing drastic, just trimmed and replanted to promote thicker growth of the stems and thinned out the floaters to allow more light. Note that the left was taken on 6/14 and the right was taken the next day.








​Since the trim, the tank has become very cloudy, so much so that looking through it long ways, I cannot see my hand on the other side until it is touching the glass. You can already see that it was cloudier just a day after the trim, but here is a photo taken today:








Not sure who the culprit of the cloudiness is between bacteria and algae. There is always a thick layer of biofilm on the surface when the tank is left undisturbed for any length of time. Additionally, the water doesn't look particularly green to me, mostly just white cloudiness, so I'm leaning towards bacteria. I will attach a comparison of tap water (left) vs. tank water (right) in test tubes so you can see the difference.

There are several variables at play. I have been feeding the tank either once or twice a day since 6/6. Because of the water lettuce, I also decided to dose Flourish Iron (which I realize is not chelated, but my friend had a bottle so I wanted to try it). I added 1mL twice, on 6/15 and 6/16. I also removed about half the floating plants and trimmed the water lettuce roots. All of these factors have probably resulted in a higher concentration of nutrients in the water column than there was before the trim, possibly contributing to the cloudiness. 

Besides aesthetics, I don't think the cloudiness is necessarily harmful. Water parameters are all normal except for a pH rise from 7.4 to 8.0 between 6/14 and 6/18. GH and KH also reduced by 1 over the same time period. Maybe the cloudiness is actually algae, using CO2 and nutrients during photosynthesis and thereby increasing pH and decreasing hardness. 

To my excitement, I have noticed a blooming community of tiny animals! I see ostracods hanging out near the surface and around the roots of floaters. Copepods skip their way across the glass, and I have seen several carrying eggs. Small white worms wiggle in the water column, and larger ones (1/4-1/2 inch in length) occasionally emerge from the substrate when disturbed. I am happy to see these critters playing their part in the ecosystem. I wonder if they like to eat whatever is clouding up the water.

My larger critters are doing well, too. I have seen numerous shrimp molts over the past week. The more sociable ones enjoyed sharing some boiled peas and cucumber. The largest ladies are saddled, so I hope to see shrimplets in my future. The many spotted ramshorns are growing, the biggest almost dime sized in shell diameter. They are funny, they shoot up like rockets to the surface sometimes for fast travel. My nerites are very shy, but they are coming out of their shells at their own pace (a snail's pace, if you will...)

All this is to say, maybe my leaving town is actually perfect timing. I go tomorrow morning, and won't be back until Thursday afternoon at the earliest. So until then, the tank will be left to its own devices and we'll see how it is when I get back. Probably better than trying to intervene myself. Just let nature take its course.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

My apologies. I must have missed it. What was the point of trimming the water lettuce roots? That's where all the nutrient uptake gets done. Also, I'm wondering if two hours is a sufficient siesta period?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

_Quote: "So until then, the tank will be left to its own devices and we'll see how it is when I get back. Probably better than trying to intervene myself. Just let nature take its course. "_

Yes, let nature do the work! 

The growth of algae causes a rise in pH due to CO2 uptake. Bacteria growth would lower it. Cloudiness is usually a mix of bacteria and planktonic algae.

Be careful with over-trimming. When you reduce the plant biomass too much, algae can gain an upper hand.

Those floaters with their big root systems have the "aerial advantage." They are highly effective in combatting algae and protecting your submerged plants.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> My apologies. I must have missed it. What was the point of trimming the water lettuce roots? That's where all the nutrient uptake gets done. Also, I'm wondering if two hours is a sufficient siesta period?


The root trim was purely aesthetic, they were blocking my view. Not the best reason, but they're already growing back so oh well.

2-4 hours for a siesta is something I've seen Diana mention frequently. On page 179 of the Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (we need a shorthand for that) the benefit of a siesta appears to increase linearly over the 4 hour period. A full 4 hours brings CO2 from 4 to 8 mg/L in Walstad's tanks, and the graph suggests that half that time would provide half that benefit.



dwalstad said:


> The growth of algae causes a rise in pH due to CO2 uptake. Bacteria growth would lower it. Cloudiness is usually a mix of bacteria and planktonic algae.


I am giving a water sample to my friend who has access to a microscope in the lab he works in. I'll share here what he finds!

And yes, next time I'll do a more conservative trim. I didn't remove any stem biomass, but removing half the floaters and trimming the water lettuce roots seems to have really made a difference.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> 2-4 hours for a siesta is something I've seen Diana mention frequently. On page 179 of the Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (we need a shorthand for that) the benefit of a siesta appears to increase linearly over the 4 hour period.


"Siestas help control algae, especially in tanks without CO2 injection."
page 179, EPA (Ecology of the Planted Aquarium)


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## erose (8 mo ago)

My friend was able to look at the water sample under the microscope today, but had a few limitations. The sample was pretty dilute, so it was hard to find things in it. And he was short on time. But he still sent me some interesting things!

I organized all the photos onto a presentation with my best guesses as to identification. Much harder than I expected it to be! I am inexperienced with identifying microscopic organisms, so take my opinions with that grain of salt.

The only thing I'm certain about is the presence of diatoms (specimen 2). The rest are very general and uncertain guesses.

Sometime later this summer (when we are both back in town) I will join him in the lab after hours to take a look for myself. That way I can spend as much time as I want looking at the microorganisms and taking pictures. What fun!

Anyways, peruse the pdf at your leisure.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Yes, it does sound like fun! But definitely will need help of a biologist! What you've photographed are the big animals (protozoa and probably debris--unless it's moving). 
Your tank's cloudiness could be due to bacteria and micro-algae that you will not see without 400- 1,000X magnification. For the bacteria, you will need special staining or a dedicated microscope (phase-contrast?).
The size of bacteria range from 0.2 to 20 microns. Micro-algae are somewhat larger.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Yes, it does sound like fun! But definitely will need help of a biologist! What you've photographed are the big animals (protozoa and probably debris--unless it's moving).
> Your tank's cloudiness could be due to bacteria and micro-algae that you will not see without 400- 1,000X magnification. For the bacteria, you will need special staining or a dedicated microscope (phase-contrast?).
> The size of bacteria range from 0.2 to 20 microns. Micro-algae are somewhat larger.


I will have to see if I can get access to one somehow. Maybe one of the labs I volunteer in has a beefier microscope. 

My friend used a complex fluorescence microscope to get those photos. His lab works with fungal genetics, so he uses it to determine the presence of genes he's tagged. It's great for that purpose, but somewhat lacking for my interests.

Still interesting to see the larger animals, but I wish I could see more.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

5 week update...

Well, I left the tank alone for a week. The cloudiness hasn't changed much, but just about everything else has!









6/24/22​From the photo, the cloudiness looks better than it did last week, but the visibility longways is still poor. I would say it's maybe _slightly _better than last week. Hard to tell.

The pH normalized as well, back to around 7.6 where it's been for all of June.

The plants are really starting to look denser now which I love. The pearlweed is getting especially wild. It has sent out two runners over the carpet, challenging the hairgrass. The hairgrass is thick and holding the front lines against the pearlweed, but some has retreated towards the left side under the ludwigia.

As you can see, the water lettuce was not to be disgraced by my trimming of its roots. It has grown them back twice as long as before. I am giving up for now and allowing it.

The lily is exploding as usual. It is sending up two leaves today. One is sitting at the surface unopened. I've read mixed things about whether or not this plant forms lily pads like other species do. I've been hoping that it will.

In my time away, many of the plants have become greener. The salvinia finally looks normal again, and the water lettuce has improved some. The bacopa and rotala look much better as well.

The only plant struggling right now is the limnophila. It is responsible for the thin area in the center back. It is branching out laterally since the trimming, but the leaves are small, curled, light in color, and some are dying off. Interestingly, this was the plant that was growing the fastest in the beginning. Maybe it is an inferior competitor. I am interested to see what happens to it as time goes on.

As for the animals, there are exciting developments! I think I was right about the ostracods and copepods feeding off of whatever is in the cloudy water, because their populations have boomed compared to last week. I estimate that I'm seeing 2-4 times as many today than I was on the 18th. I saw at least ten copepods carrying eggs. Also, I think I have two species of ostracods present. Some are larger and transparent yellow while others are smaller and black, about the size and color of a poppy seed. Interestingly, there has been a sharp decline in the amount of detritus worms in the water. I did see large ones in the substrate, so maybe they grew big and decided to burrow. Unsure about that.

And the biggest news of the day... I'm going to be a grandparent! I was elated to see that my largest yellow shrimp is carrying eggs. It's a good sign. The shrimp are settled in, happy and healthy.

Things are going well. The cloudy water is not a catastrophe. The plants are growing, the crustaceans are breeding, and that's about all I could hope for.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I had a brief experience with ostracods and copepods last year at about this same time of the year when I brought home some topsoil from a farm in North Carolina. I was convinced the creatures were daphnia at first until dissuaded from that view by the Au Naturel community. The soil was likewise accompanied by a grayish cloud when added to water. So, i'm wondering if this is also the case with your substrate which is a commercially sold "raised bed" soil mixture. They sometimes contain compost which can be pretty rich in bacteria. I would suggest letting the critters do their thing; they already seem to be making a difference. I wouldn't add any fish until the creatures are done procreating and have disappeared on their own.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Fun tank! Lot to enjoy watching.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> I had a brief experience with ostracods and copepods last year at about this same time of the year when I brought home some topsoil from a farm in North Carolina. I was convinced the creatures were daphnia at first until dissuaded from that view by the Au Naturel community. The soil was likewise accompanied by a grayish cloud when added to water. So, i'm wondering if this is also the case with your substrate which is a commercially sold "raised bed" soil mixture. They sometimes contain compost which can be pretty rich in bacteria. I would suggest letting the critters do their thing; they already seem to be making a difference. I wouldn't add any fish until the creatures are done procreating and have disappeared on their own.


Thanks for sharing your experience! I am using a raised bed soil, Bonnie's Harvest is the brand. Perhaps there is a similar thing going on in my tank.

I definitely don't mind the critters. In fact, I enjoy their presence, I wouldn't try to remove them. And I don't plan on adding any fish until my summer classes are over anyway so I can actually spend time around them.

Gives me plenty of time to consider what fish to get. At first, I was planning on a Betta, but they're kind of a dice roll when it comes to compatibility with shrimp. Lately I've been thinking about celestial pearl danios. My tank is the minimum recommended size for them though, so I'm not sure if they'd be comfortable.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

6 week update...









7/1/22​
I'll keep it brief this time. Tank is looking nice and jungle-y and I'm very happy with it.

Cloudiness is all but gone. Ostracods and copepods exploded even more than last time, can't look at a spot without seeing them. I think they might start to decline now that the tank is looking so clean. Photos of some of them attached..

I think the lily's preparing to make plantlets, several stems are forming a bud just before the leaf (photo attached). Floaters are looking healthy, much greener and less chlorotic. Ludwigia in the back had breached the surface before I topped off the water. Tiny crypt is putting out more leaves, but you can still barely see it in the tank shot.

Shrimp mama still has her eggs. No new pregnant ladies yet. And amanos are getting bigger. They're all so cute, so I'll attach some photos of them as well. And one of my pretty nerite.

I think I'll need to give it a trim tomorrow because I won't be able to visit next weekend. I will not remove any floaters, just trim and replant stems. 

That's all for now. Hope you all had a nice week!


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Taiwan lily does appear to make lily pads. They are more arrow-like and less wavy than the submerged leaves. And I have another mama-to-be! Very sad I won't be back for two weeks.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Yes, it's not always easy to tell what is going to happen when a lily sends out a "runner". It can be a pad or just another submersed leaf. How would you describe the growth beneath the substrate? Is it a bulb, a rhizome or just a root ball?


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yes, it's not always easy to tell what is going to happen when a lily sends out a "runner". It can be a pad or just another submersed leaf. How would you describe the growth beneath the substrate? Is it a bulb, a rhizome or just a root ball?


I'm not sure about the growth under the substrate, I haven't poked around. Six weeks ago when I planted it, it was just a plantlet with a few roots. Do you have any idea how long it takes for a lily to grow a bulb?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> I'm not sure about the growth under the substrate, I haven't poked around. Six weeks ago when I planted it, it was just a plantlet with a few roots. Do you have any idea how long it takes for a lily to grow a bulb?


The nomenclature can be a little confusing. I'm still not sure when a _lily_ is a lily and not a l_otus_. They both grow pads and can look remarkably like each other depending on the individual coloring of each plant. My tiger lotus recently sent out runners that resulted in new plants. The new plants already had small bulbs attached to them by the time they were big enough for me to notice their existence in the tank.

ETA: I would say if the plant is sending up pads, it probably is past the stage where it needs nutrients from a bulb. I bet if you poke around, you will find a bulb and can probably remove it fairly easily.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> The nomenclature can be a little confusing. I'm still not sure when a _lily_ is a lily and not a l_otus_. They both grow pads and can look remarkably like each other depending on the individual coloring of each plant. My tiger lotus recently sent out runners that resulted in new plants. The new plants already had small bulbs attached to them by the time they were big enough for me to notice their existence in the tank.


I see. Looking into their taxonomy on itis.gov, the genuses _Nymphaea_ (your lotus) and _Nymphoides_ (my lily) share a class, Magoliopsida. They are in the families Nymphaeaceae and Menyanthaceae respectively. From a few minutes of reading, it seems like your lotus is in the true water lily family, whereas my "lily" is an imposter. Its genus _Nymphoides_ was named after its resemblance to _Nymphaea_ (water lilies).

I haven't found anything yet about the differences and how to identify them, so if you happen to, I'd love for you to share.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> I see. Looking into their taxonomy on itis.gov, the genuses _Nymphaea_ (your lotus) and _Nymphoides_ (my lily) share a class, Magoliopsida. They are in the families Nymphaeaceae and Menyanthaceae respectively. From a few minutes of reading, it seems like your lotus is in the true water lily family, whereas my "lily" is an imposter. Its genus _Nymphoides_ was named after its resemblance to _Nymphaea_ (water lilies).
> 
> I haven't found anything yet about the differences and how to identify them, so if you happen to, I'd love for you to share.


Yeah, my brief wikipedia search reveals that _nymphoides _are a definite thing. We're most familiar with the _nymphoides aquatica _a/k/a, the banana plant. There are dozens of other species found all over the world, many of them considered invasive.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

True lotuses are in the Nelmbonaceae family and the leaves and flowers grow above the waterline.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Dropped by home on the way to the airport. Interesting color change occuring in the surface lily leaves, and the plantlets are growing.

I also have another berried shrimp. We'll soon be overrun!


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Day 62...









7/22/2022​We've come a long way in a few short months! The tank has grown in better than I imagined it would.

I'm hoping the plants in the center back can grow dense enough to hide the heater soon. I think the limnophila is being slowly outcompeted by the bordering ludwigia and rotala. It just never really took off like the others. 

The lily is resisting my pruning attempts. Almost daily it sends new surface leaves, already growing plantlets before they even open. For the most part, I've been trimming off these leaves and letting the plantlets grow floating, but the main plants seem to have abandoned the idea of growing submerged. The remaining submerged leaves are yellowing and providing food for many baby ramshorns and tiny crustaceans.

The carpet is wild and thick. I trimmed the pearl weed that was encroaching on its space because it had started growing up rather than out. 

Floater problems are solved for the most part. Things are green and red where they should be and growing fast. I gave up trying to tame the water lettuce roots. The ostracods and shrimp enjoy them. 

Shrimplets are unreasonably small. The first batch hatched sometime this week while I was out of town. My roommate sent me a picture, but you don't quite understand just how tiny they really are until you see them in person. They are barely twice the size of an ostracod, and just so, so cute. 

I fed everyone blanched romaine today. It was a hit and I got some cute pictures that I will include below.

Just about everyone is happy except for the nerites. I'm worried about them. I haven't seen the tiger in a while, and the unicorn's shell is looking a little drab. The tank glass is really clean, and since they spend about 99% of the time on the glass, I'm worried they're starving/have starved. They don't ever come eat food on the ground and I can't exactly put it on the glass. I don't think they're as competitive or behaviorally adaptable as the ramshorns, so in this small of a space with so many cleaners, they're probably struggling. Makes me sad, and I don't know what to do for them.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> Day 62...
> 
> View attachment 75272
> 
> ...


I really like this tank. The only other one I can compare it to is that chap's from Australia with all the blue platys. You both have had extraordinary luck with your stem plants. In your case, I think not having fish gave you an unanticipated advantage in never having to worry about toxic levels of nitrates. You could play around with ferts and the proof is in the pudding, as they say!


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> I really like this tank. The only other one I can compare it to is that chap's from Australia with all the blue platys. You both have had extraordinary luck with your stem plants. In your case, I think not having fish gave you an unanticipated advantage in never having to worry about toxic levels of nitrates. You could play around with ferts and the proof is in the pudding, as they say!


Thank you! It's been a lot of fun.

I've been debating whether or not to add fish eventually. I originally planned on adding them after I finish my summer classes, but the shrimp are so enjoyable on their own already. I would be sad if the fish caused them to become more reclusive and/or ate all the babies.

I am drawn to CPDs but my tank might be a bit on the small side for them. I don't think I'll do a Betta because of the risk to the shrimp. So I'm not sure.

Also, do you have a link to the blue platy tank? I'd love to see it.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> Also, do you have a link to the blue platy tank? I'd love to see it.


This will link you to the last page. But you should definitely start at the beginning:
Walstad method for a 600 liter tank | Page 12 | Aquatic Plant Forum (aquaticplantcentral.com)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

erose said:


> Thank you! It's been a lot of fun.
> 
> I've been debating whether or not to add fish eventually. I originally planned on adding them after I finish my summer classes, but the shrimp are so enjoyable on their own already. I would be sad if the fish caused them to become more reclusive and/or ate all the babies.


Great to see this tank! You've got stem plants, hair grass, and Yellow Shrimp going to town. All things that I struggle-- or have-- struggled with. (I bought two populations of Yellow Shrimp (30 individuals) and have about nada after two years. After seeing your pictures of them cavorting around, I admit to be envious!)

I would enjoy what you have. Your are correct to be wary. Any fish will make the shrimp more reclusive and/or eat their babies. Then, there's always the risk of fish diseases and all their little problems.

If you need more challenge, set up a new tank.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> If you need more challenge, set up a new tank.


Don't tempt me. I live in an apartment and will be moving sometime next summer once I graduate, so I'm not letting myself start another tank until after that.

I went into this knowing that this tank would only have about a year lifespan, so I think you're probably right about it being best to keep it shrimp-only. I'll enjoy them in this tank for now.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Day 71...

Slideshow photos in order:
1. Before trim (7/30/2022)
2. Before trim with floaters removed (7/30/2022)
3. Look at all those floaters
4. This morning with baby food (7/31/2022)

I had to do a pretty big trim this weekend because I didn't have time last and things were getting wild. I tried to remove as little as possible in fear of initiating another cloudy period, but I had to get rid of some stuff. The L. belem has been struggling since the beginning, so I removed it and replaced it with the hornwort stems I've been growing in the back corners. I also couldn't replant all of the ludwigia stems, not enough space. And the layers and layers of salvinia were ridiculous. When I put as many floaters back as I possibly could, the top was covered again, I still had over a golf ball sized portion left. So those, the L. belem, and the extra ludwigia will be going to my friend's Betta tank, along with a good amount of ostracods (for snacks).

The copepods have virtually disappeared. I only saw one last weekend and I haven't been able to find any this one. Maybe the ostracods outcompeted them. They are abundant.

The shrimplets are growing and new ones were born. I love watching them submarine around the water column, fearless. It is lovely to see prey animals who have never been exposed to predators. So free.

The water lettuce are huge and their roots are crazy. One has a flower.







​And to end the update on the uncertain: When I was replanting ludwigia stems in the front left corner, I hit what felt like a cavity in the dirt with no resistance. When I removed my tweezers, a large amount of gas released from the soil. And wouldn't you know... rotten eggs. I poked around the area until they stopped coming up. This didn't happen anywhere else I was replanting stems. I will keep an eye on it and hold off on panicking for now.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Day 86...









Before trim (8/15/2022)









After trim (8/15/2022)​
The tank has never needed a trim so badly. I may have gone overboard while trimming, we'll see if I regret it.

The water lettuce was becoming too obstructive, so I removed the three largest plants. The lily is still trying to become a surface plant. I may experiment with trying to reconvert it to a submerged form, or I might uproot it and put the plantlets in its place. Might be more successful keeping them submerged by starting fresh. 

There are many worms on the glass. I can't tell what kind they are. I don't think they're planaria, they're too skinny, but I could be wrong. I'll attach a photo.

Other than that, not much to report. I have no idea what happened to my larger tiger nerite. I haven't seen her in weeks, so I assume she died, but I never found her shell. The smaller horned nerite is still kicking. The first batch of shrimplets are about half an inch long now, and I think they're all wild type which was expected. All the males are very low grade.

When replanting, I thankfully didn't come across any H2S patches like last time.

I go out of town again on Wednesday for a week to visit family across the country, but after that I'm home for the summer. Happy about that.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> The lily is still trying to become a surface plant. I may experiment with trying to reconvert it to a submerged form, or I might uproot it and put the plantlets in its place.


I think it's the nature of this particular _nymphaea _to just keep growing long, submergent stems. Are the plantlets the result of runners? My parent plant was grown from a rhizome that recently became completely detached after more than a year:









It was just hanging by a thread to the substrate, one end pointing 90 degrees toward the surface. It was sold in a box filled with peat moss and labeled "Hardy Lily (Nymphaea)" but I'm having my doubts.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> I think it's the nature of this particular _nymphaea _to just keep growing long, submergent stems. Are the plantlets the result of runners?


It's not from rhizomes, the plantlets grow from a node on the stem of the leaves that sit at the surface. This didn't happen until the leaves started reaching the surface. Once they did, buds began to form about an inch down the stem from the leaf. From this bud, new small leaves and roots would begin to grow.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> It's not from rhizomes, the plantlets grow from a node on the stem of the leaves that sit at the surface. This didn't happen until the leaves started reaching the surface. Once they did, buds began to form about an inch down the stem from the leaf. From this bud, new small leaves and roots would begin to grow.


Wow, that's the most unusual reproductive method I've come across for a _nymphaea. _Clearly, long, submersed stems are a natural adaptation of some sort.


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Wow, that's the most unusual reproductive method I've come across for a _nymphaea. _Clearly, long, submersed stems are a natural adaptation of some sort.


It's technically in the _Nymphoides_ genus. I'm not sure how the others in that genus reproduce.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

erose said:


> It's technically in the _Nymphoides_ genus. I'm not sure how the others in that genus reproduce.


LOL. Yes, I remember now. We started this conversation at the top of the page! There's evidently a lot of biodiversity among the _Nymphoides._


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## erose (8 mo ago)

Day 100... (!)









8/29/2022 (100th day)​
The 9.6 gallon NPT is now 100 days old. And how fitting that our first inhabitant, the survivor ramshorn, positions himself front and center for the momentous occasion.

The system seems to be in "maintenance mode" as I'm calling it. Plant density is about as high as it can be in the space. The water is clear as crystal. Numerous species of crustacean, worm, and gastropod subsist on biofilm and reproduce consistently.

There is an exponentially growing population of baby shrimp, and I always find them hanging about in the "rafters." If you look at the tank from above, you can see them skimming the surface biofilm between the floating plants. I love peering through the roots and lily leaves to find them living their little lives. Without looking closely, you'd have no idea how many were in there. They do not make themselves obvious.

Please enjoy the photos I've included below of the rafters, baby shrimp, and my remaining nerite. (I encourage you to try to find the baby shrimp in the third one, he is especially hard to spot.)

I feed the tank once a day, when I remember to. Besides that and occasional plant trimmings, the system runs smoothly on its own. I'm extremely pleased with the independent little ecosystem it has become. I wish you all could see it in person; my photos really do not do it justice.

It is a lovely thing to foster a naturalistic aquarium such as this.

-

(On the human side of things, please indulge my extravagant tone. I have been listening to jazz all evening while I prepared a gourmet meal for myself involving goat cheese, roasted beets, and several glasses of chardonnay. So, I'm feeling rather fancy. I hope you all are well.)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Your enthusiasm is infectious.


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## Aquatic Meditation (5 mo ago)

Just popping by to tell you what you already know - your aquarium is stunning.
Thanks for documenting your journey. I'm late to the game, but this has been a fun read!


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## erose (8 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Your enthusiasm is infectious.





Aquatic Meditation said:


> Just popping by to tell you what you already know - your aquarium is stunning.
> Thanks for documenting your journey. I'm late to the game, but this has been a fun read!


Thank you both.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Congratulations! You have a very successful natural planted tank. What I like is the simplicity (no massive driftwood, filters), the variety of plant species, the large plant biomass (no bare spots), the floating plants.


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