# [Wet Thumb Forum]-a poll of what ferts we use



## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i have been interested for a while about who uses what ferts. i think it would be neat to find out what we are all using.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i casted my vote for pps. i add a little less mg than called for, but my tap water is realy hard.


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## NoDeltaH2O (May 13, 2005)

I am new to this forum but have had planted aquariums for about 2 years now and about 3 months ago got really tired of paying through the nose for premix solutions at the LFS so I opted for dosing from powders. I dose ferrous sulfate daily. Still trying to figure out how much KCl to use from Morton's NoSalt. Epsom Salt for my Magnesium, and Fleet Enema for the phosphate. One of these Saturday afternoons I'll actually come up with a dosing regimen that is in line with SearsCollins or watson.


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Well, I voted for EI, because that's what I believe I am following







. Actually, I just saw the acronum PPS yesterday, so I guess I don't really have a clue that what is. Officially, I'd say I'm using a modified EI, because I don't need to add NO3 mid-week due to fish load and my PO4 dosing is lower than Tom Barr recommends also due to fish load. So...what is PPS? (Time for some searching!)


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/8796060812/m/2701052611

here is my thread on it. but i guess you already found it. where is a better one on apc, but this is the basic stuff to use.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

man, i figured this would be a hot topic??


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Oh well. I guess not. Maybe the topic has been done.

For my part I don't like fertilizer "systems." These things do more to stroke the ego of their originators than they do for the aquarists that use them. As a result I don't usually get involved in discussions about them.

At best fertilizer systems are tools for beginners to use when starting out and starting points where people can begin creating something that works for them.

At worst they are a crutch that prevents some aquarists from progressing in the hobby -- they get so involved trying to follow the rules that they don't take time to understand what they are doing or why they are doing it. Even worse, some people use the often unusual justifications for their selected method as their only basis for understanding how plants grow and planted aquariums function. That's unfortunate because those theories often don't have much of a reasonable basis.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

it makes me wander too. many people on ei still have lots of algae!?!


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Hmmm. So folks who use PPS don't have algae







?

To me, if you have water in a container for any length of time, you have algae. Whether it is significant enough to become annoying is the real concern.

As always, Roger, good insights!!! Thanks!


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

I belong to two other forums besides this one. One seems to lean towards PPS and the other leans heavily towards EI(and its not barrreport). I enjoy both of those forums and get great information out of both. One thing I can say about this forum is that it doesnt seem to promote either. I find that proponents of either method get rather "colt'ish", they all say the same spin. With all that being said, there are people on both forums trying both methods, and they all have stories of algae and dissatified outcomes.
jB


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

Roger made good points. I don't religiously follow any system. I enjoy reading about different methods and learn from each. There are more stuff in common between these systems than differences. Both agree that adequate nutrient levels need to be maintained in water column, not limiting them. I learned from EI/Tom Barr that higher P made spot algae disappear and no need to wipe glass ever, well almost. I learned from EI/Tom Barr that 30+ppm supresses most algae growth. Reading PPS alerted me to take a look at Ca/Mg levels when a few plants don't do as well as they should. Edward's comparison photo of leaves under low/high hardness prompts me to experiment with partial RO water for some plants.

SOME algae will always be present, no silver bullet. If you have one, how much do you want? I am willing to pay big bucks for it









For me, I trust water changes more than my cheap test kits, so you can say I follow EI rather than PPS. I would say I use GI(guesstimative index)







, because I don't 100% use the textbook EI, but close enough.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

I don't know if it's really a custom 'system' but that's what I voted for/use. I do a 20% water change about once a week, test NO3 and PO4, and then use the Fertilator calculator to dose accordingly. I dose about 15ppm K+ and enough CSM+B to get 0.1ppm Fe each week. 

If I don't get around to water changing or testing, I'll just dose what I did the week before and it's always been close enough. 

I'm running 2WPG and about 20-30ppm pressurized CO2, so it's a moderate light system. I like it because I can go more than a month between prunings.

TW


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

I agree with Roger. I try to stay out of discussions on set fast systems. If there is one think I have learned running five plant tanks it's that each one is different with different needs. One thing about all the different systems that I don't think gets mentioned enough is you really need very healthy plant to start off with. If you start dosing at high levels and plants are still in shock from coming form the grower and then the LFS or on-line, algae can get a start before the plants start growing.

Hawk


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

well said hawk

and no brian, pps doesn't grow algae at all


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

you know that was a lie hehe


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

I use the EI method. For me, it's been tried & true. I do my best to keep up with what TB is saying, and it's been inline with the research I've done myself at the library. He helps to put some of that technical jargon into layman's terms.

I was trying the PPS and it just wasn't working all too well, although it did work well in a "natural" tank I had. Redfield was right with his ratio, 106C:16N:1P, but there's just something in the water here my plants like when I do regular water changes. I've 175g of aquarium, and water changes are a breeze with a simple water hose.


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## imported_gf225 (Nov 22, 2004)

Excuse my ignorance but could you please define all the terms? I can guess what "guess and check" is but what are EI and PPS in particular?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Odd. I had no idea what "guess and check" was.

EI is the Estimative Index promoted by Tom Barr.  PPS is the Perpetual Preservation System promoted by Edward.

There are other systems -- notably PMDD (Poor Man's Dosing Drops) and Diana Walstad's soil-based culture -- that Russell left out of his poll.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

ya, there were only so many slots, and i don't by any means know all of the methods. 

roger, guess and check is not a method really. but, many hobbiests just dose throughout the week, then test at the end and add or wc as needed.

i dont know if you knew that or were just being sarcastic? eather way


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

> For my part I don't like fertilizer "systems." These things do more to stroke the ego of their originators than they do for the aquarists that use them. As a result I don't usually get involved in discussions about them.


roger,
could you explain what you do on a weekly basis, or at least explain to us what we should be doing that many aquarists dont do? basically anything to that nature.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Russell,

I'm a gardener and I treat my planted tanks like gardens. I apply fertilizer in amounts based on the appearance of the plants. When I don't understand the signals they're sending me then I test. That happens a few times a year. The only kits I have are nitrate, GH/KH and pH. I use nitrate results as my primary indicator, so I use a good Hach nitrate kit.

The needs of my tanks vary. No two tanks are quite alike, and the needs of a single tank change from time to time. Variations are probably tied to seasonal changes in ambient light, room temperatures, variations in fish populations and changes in the plants growing in the tank, among other things.

I take the general approach that all nutrients should be present at levels sufficient to supply the needs of the plants. Any competition for nutrients is damaging to the plants.

I use potassium nitrate to dose nitrogen. I don't worry about potassium. Given the potassium in potassium nitrate the plants have never shown a need for additional potassium.

I use magnesium sulfate to add a little extra magnesium to my water - enough to boost the GH by 1/3-1/2 a degree. I add that to all of the water I use for water changes. I don't dose it like a fertilizer and I don't test it.

I use a dry sodium phosphate buffer to add phosphate. I dose without testing. Phosphate test are inaccurate at best when used on my tap water; that is probably because of the high silica content of my tap water. In some cases the tests fail to work at all. I add the dose after each water change. The dose is never more than enough to add 1 ppm. Slow-growing tanks are not dosed regularly.

I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive in my slow-growth tanks and dose once or twice a week. I use Seachem's Flourish Trace and Flourish Iron to dose my high-growth tanks. Those are dosed daily. The dose varies according to the needs of the tank and that is usually determined by the most trace-hungry plant in the tank.

For all of my tanks I change about 1/6 of the tank volume per week.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

thanks

do you have a website for pictures of plant difficiencies? if not, what are some things to look for? also, do certain types of algae indicate nutirent levels, such as does green dust algae actually indicate low po4?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I can't give you a link to photos of nutrient deficient plants. There are numerous sites out there that provide photos and keys for common horticultural and agricultural crops, but those photos don't always translate well to aquatic plants.

Normally when deficiencies are bad enough to cause symptoms there is more than one deficiency present. Also, many symptoms can be triggered by a brief shortage and last long after nutrient levels are normalized. Damage cannot be repaired and accumulates over time.

The keys I use are:

Carbon: slow growth, small leaves, some dark discolorations. In tanks normally dosed with CO2 a drop in CO2 may be most obvious as unusually prominent algae growth.

Nitrogen: Green plants are pale. Older leaves die and drop off from stem plants. Older leaves on rosette plants usually die back from the tip. This can be difficult to distinguish from symptoms due to other causes.

Magnesium: interveinal chlorosis on older leaves. This is non-diagnostic (can be caused by other things) and needs to be confirmed with hardness tests and/or information from your water utility. I haven't seen the symptom for a long time; plants don't use much magnesium so it's easy to avoid. Regular water changes are usually sufficient.

Potassium: usually associated with holes in older leaves. That is non-diagnostic and can be caused by other factors, especially damage from fish. Deficiency may also cause stems to grow thin and weak. In most cases using potasium nitrate as your only chemical source of nitrogen will eliminate any potassium deficiency. Without additions most tanks will be potassium deficient.

Calcium: usually associated with deformed new growth and death of growing tips. This is non-diagnostic. Normally any hardness in the water will be sufficient to avoid problems with calcium, but extreme imbalances between calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium can trigger deficiencies that won't otherwise appear. Plants don't need much calcium.

Phosphorus: no symptoms in most cases. May cause slow growth. Extreme cases are associated with dwarfed growth. Phosphorus interacts with calcium, so hard water tanks may have problems that do not appear in soft water tanks; problems may appear at high pH that do not appear at low pH.

Iron and other trace nutrients: symptoms generally effect new growth; interveinal chlorosis, stunted growth, death of growing tips and possibly hardening of stems. Symptoms are not diagnostic. Without additions most tanks will be deficient.

I don't know of any associations between nutrient problems and specific algae that have proven to be broadly reproducable. Part of the reason may be that we aren't getting accurate and consistent identification of many algaes.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

thank you for that very in depth info. ok, last question, i keep my tank at a fairly constant level of nutrients. usually:
no3 7ppm
po4 2ppm
mg 30ppm
co2 35ppm
gh 250ppm
kh 7
lights running 10 hours with small amounts of window light. uv sterilizer.

my water is realy hard right out of the tap. tap gh is around 300ppm mg is usually around 50 or so. 

i have dwarf hairgrass. i always keep it clean, but if i ever go even 4 days without combing and picking the algae out of it, it builds up so bad, when i try to pull it out, it uproots the grass. i have tried everything. i got rid of it one time with extreme co2 dosing but then my co2 ran out about 3 weeks ago and it came back. it is just a constant battle. this time it spread to my nice plants (glandulosa, stellata, ect) and it is clinging to them. granted it was only on a couple leaves which i picked off. 

what can i do?


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

i add my ferts every other day and check water parameters once in two weeks or when i c a problem (algae, stop of growth etc. )


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Roger - great post! Thanks!!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Russell,

I had the same problem with my dwarf hairgrass. Judging from photos I've seen I think it's probably fairly common. My algae-in-hairgrass problem went away when I thinned out the hairgrass. But then the thinned out stand of hair grass didn't have much of a visual presence in the tank, either. Ya win some, ya lose some...

I don't know what causes algae problems in plant carpets. I know some of those problems are pretty tenacious. My best guess is that the problems stem from the gunk that gets caught in the carpet. It's hard to clean out and it builds up on and in the substrate.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i'm thinking of just switching to glosso. i am also interested in hc, but it seems much more expensive.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Russel,

Been there done that - I God rid of the hair grass, covered the substrate with some more substrate and planted glosso.

End of hair grass story,

Aviel.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

sounds easy lol

nobody ever warned me about the hairgrass algae issue.


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## SAWALLACE (Dec 24, 2004)

I've tried them all, but I currently dose my own routine, it's basically PPS with a little bit of EI.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

thanks for getting us back on track there sawallace. hey, just use what you feel good with. whatever works for your specific tank.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

Russell since you started this post I read up on the EI and PPS. I decided to try the EI out. It wasn't that big of a change for me because my routine was very close to this method. I use the Flourish line instead of bulk fert for now but plan on making the change as soon as I use up my stock. 

I use what I call a base line method. I have my tank set at or very close to the point at which they grow plants with the lest amount of effort. Then I would make changes slowly to vary NO3 or Fe to bring out reds in plants. I wouldn't change CO2 or Light once I find my base line. This would allow me to come back to my base line if things get out of hand. My dosing was every three days then one day of rest. This has work well for me. But every tank has a different base line. Your base line can change if CO2 levels or light change.

SO changing to the EI was not a big jump. I does every two days now with one day off. I upped all my doses and my CO2 levels. I tried this method in three tanks, 75gal, 36gal, and a 30gal. The first week my 30gal liked the new dosing but I didn't raise the CO2 as high as recommended. This thank is in the mid 20s with light at 2.4/gal. I don't think this tank can get any better so I didn't make any more changes.

Now compare the 30gal to the 75gal. All thou it likes the new dosing also, I see allot of changes in this tank. I had a hair algae problem in this tank to start with. Not really bad but it was there. This tank has 2.9/gal with CO2 levels in the upper 20s. The EI method said to get CO2 levels up to 30+. I am having a hard time getting up this high with a low KH I have in this tank. The hair algae is on the retreat but I have thread algae now. In the past this has been a sign that I needed to get my CO2 levels constant. Or it could be that I don't have my trace does just right. I am leaning to think its the CO2. There is a balance between CO2/light I think this is out of balance in this tank.

MY 36gal in some where in-between the two but has very little algae.

So after four weeks what can I conclude by using a visual conclusion?
All thou my plant growth is faster and I am using more ferts I can say that the EI method does work but it is restricted to the CO2/light balance. If had a tank that has very high light and very high CO2 levels EI should work very well but in a mid range tank which is what I consider my tanks. (tanks in the 2.5 - 3w/gal with CO2 levels in the mid to upper 20s) this CO2/light balance is off. I well keep playing with the 75gal to see if I can up the CO2 but if not I will start to back off to my base line for this tank. I think I will stay on the every other day dosing. This seems to work well in my tanks.

Hawk


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Good data, Hawk. Keep us posted.

Personally, I think I use my own method too. It's bascially EI will a little bit of PPS! (Sorry, I had to say it







!)


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i am now switching to the high light/high co2 method of pps. it uses more pf insted of just ss. pf being phosphate free and ss being standard solution. this way, it seems to add more no3 to the water. we will see how it goes.

i also cranked my co2 up slowly over the last 3 days. it is at about 60ppm. i will leave it here for about a week. i have found this to be a great method of killing thread algae.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> Originally posted by russell:
> i also cranked my co2 up slowly over the last 3 days. it is at about 60ppm.


Damn! Do you keep your house open so all that excess CO2 doesn't build up indoors?

Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

lol

never thought of that









it seriously does kill thread algae.


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## sarahbobarah (Sep 5, 2005)

Russell, re the hairgrass algae problem, totally went away for me when I added a powerhead that blows directly across the top of the substrate. 

As for what ferts I use, I'm going to admit that I have an arsenal of chemicals I play with to see what results I get. 
Some are hydroponic ferts with 0-0-3 ratio to limit the damage caused by my intense lighting (5.3 w/g) I also use clay balls with a mixture of 1:1:1 Osmocote, Sul-Po-Mag, and Vigoro Palm.

Then, using the chart of symptoms I found on the web, drop Sul-Po-Mag or Epsom Salts directly on top of one of my powerhead filters (I have it lying horizontally on the bottom)

So far, no problems with algae, pearling every day, and fish look plump and active.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

> Russell, re the hairgrass algae problem, totally went away for me when I added a powerhead that blows directly across the top of the substrate.


i think that you are on to somthing. i was told by many people that hairgrass algae is usually caused by a build up of dead stuff (organic waste) which produces ammonia. i believe it, cause it was hard for me to keep my hairgrass clean. so, i think your powerhead idea would work great.

i actually took my hairgrass out of my tank about a month ago. i just didn't have the time to keep it clean.


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

> i was told by many people that hairgrass algae is usually caused by a build up of dead stuff (organic waste) which produces ammonia. i believe it, cause it was hard for me to keep my hairgrass clean.


I believe that too. My tank is free of most algae, BUT, I always have plenty of hair algae on substrate, I believe that's because I have extremely high bioload with big fish dropping "bombs" left and right. So I have to live with it under this fish load. Good thing is, I think I found a solution to that too. Half of my foreground is now packed with marselia lawn. Once fully grown in, the marselia lawn is easier to keep clean than any other foreground I have tried.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i will keep that in mind. 

i am getting a new eheim 2213, and i think they come with a spray bar. i think i will point the bar across the bottom of the substrate. (which is riccia and glosso)


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

Well its been a few months now. Who is still using the IE or PPS method? Even if you don't use these two what do you use and how is it working for you? I would like to know your tanks watts/gal and NO3 PO4 levels as well as CO2.

Hawk


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I still *don't* use either method.


Roger Miller


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

i didn't think you'd change over roger









and here's a shocker, i switched over to the EI method just to give it a try. at first, i had a huge outbreak of algae, then it slowly subsided, and with lots of cleaning, now there is only a little bit of algae on the gravel. (still the same one i have been battleing forever)

co2 - 30ppm
and i add 9ppm no3 and 1.5 ppm po4 every other day.


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