# Vertical Glosso, what am I doing wrong?



## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Hi everybody, I know this is a common subject on APC but I just can't seem to beat it. I've been trying to grow horizontal glosso for weeks now, probably pushing months, but it continues to grow vertically. I know initally I didn't perfectly plant the little stems, I planted many of them vertically instead of horizontally, I have since corrected most of them. Not that it helped. The first internode would be laying flat on the substrate then it would curve upwards from there. I now have glosso that is taller than some of my midground plants, at least 6" above the substrate. 

My setup still has DIY co2 unfortunately, i've been way to broke to take the next step up to pressurized but I'm thinking this might be my problem. either the co2 isn't consistant enough or there just isn't enough to get the glosso to grow horizontally. I'm considering adding another 2 1 gallon yeast CO2 generators to the DIY contraption, but I've been to lazy to actually do it. Plus I allready go through a ton of sugar and yeast with the current 4 1 gallon container setup. I change 2 of the 1 gallon containers every friday. 

I'm thinking that since i started DIY co2 my plants have really taken off and I've added more plant mass, this is probably consuming more CO2 than I can produce so the current setup probably needs a little more CO2 production power.

details about my setup:
- 75gallon tank
- 260 watts CFL lighting
- 4 1gallon yeast CO2 generators feeding into a DIY reactor achieving 100% dissolution. 
- EI ferts with KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, Fe DPTA 10%, Flourish
- Water Chem GH 8, KH 4, PH looks like 6.4-6.5 but my PH test is suspect

So I guess my question really is do you think that adding more CO2 generators is the solution here or should I be doing something else. I have probably 1-5% of the glosso stems that are actually growing horizontal but thats about it. Others are growing vert then horiz about 2-3inches above the substrate and others are just growing vertically.


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## nailalc (Mar 17, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, what's the dimensions of a 75 gallon tank? I don't know the answer to that myself and wonder if that could be the problem, light penetration to get to the bottom.

I currently grow horizontal glosso in my 55 gallon with 220 watts and AHS reflectors. I dose the same ferts and have used both DIY and (currently) pressurized CO2. Glosso grows the same horizontal fashion with either type of CO2 in this tank.

I once grew glosso in my 20 gallon tank with ~3 watts per gallon and it grew slightly vertical, like 1 - 1 1/2 inches. At the time I attributed that to light penetration. Could be your issue.


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

Sounds like CO2 is your issue, my man. I've been growing Glosso for 1 1/2 years now. I have a standard 75, T5 108W (2 lamp, 6700K, SunLight Supply), injected CO2, & GW dry ferts on EI. The 2 major differences between our tanks are you have more light and DIY CO2. High light is a requirement & so is injected CO2. Glosso is high demanding and a really fast grower. 

Here's my antecdote. Recently, I tore down my 2nd hi-tech, planted 75 for the annual "deep substrate vacuuming". A few roots of Glosso didn't get torn out. The water level was reduced to below the gravel line for a week. I filled the tank back up a week ago and yesterday noticed some Glosso that was left was growing upwards. Still growing with no ferts or CO2! It looks healthy though, but growing upwards. Weird.

Other than that, I've noticed it grow upwards when it grows in too densely with no trimming. This is well after it has spread out as far as it could.


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## SnyperP (Dec 10, 2004)

I'm guessing it's the light. What type of fixture are you using? It sounds like you should have plenty of light to grow glosso horizontally.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

nailalc - 48"L X 20"H x 18"W are the standard dimensions of a 75gallon tank.

rwoehr - I bet your right, I know I've seen glosso growing horz. in a 75g with less light than I have so CO2 must be the issue. I just wish I had an easier way for the mean time. lol


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

SnyperP - Coralife 48" 260w freshwater Aqualight


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

You have more light than I do. I'm jealous! But due to the fast growing nature of Glosso, it's actually quite demanding on the Holy Trinity of high light, CO2, & ferts. I'm confident your covered on light and ferts. Perhaps, double up on the DIY CO2 or grow it emersed until you can go injected.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I bet the additional CO2 will make a difference, just because on the day I change yeast solution for half the DIY system there is a noticable difference in the growth of the glosso, thats when it grows more horiz. but it lasts for a day or two, I bet having 2 more 1gallon yeast solution containers will be enough for the mean time, that way I'll have 6 total generators being changed on the same rotation system so they sit for no longer than 2 weeks which is when I've noticed a difference in CO2 production after the initial drop after 2 days or so. 

the glosso is currently very healthy and b right green, algae free, and pearling daily I bet it just needs a little more to get the desired horiz. growth. sucks being broke and CO2 limited. lol. if only I had the $200 for the CO2 system lol.

I may double up on the DIY CO2 but I want to try adding 2 first because I dont want to over do it especially considering that I will be upgrading to pressurized CO2 in the comming months. What sucks is right now I'm paying approximately as much every month for DIY co2 yeast and sugar as I would be for several months worth of pressurized CO2, kinda gets to me.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

ok time for a quick update, on friday I added one of the 1gallon yeast CO2 generators to the existing 4. I plan to add 1 more this friday for a grand total of 6. I noticed my fish gulping air at the surface saturday morning shortly before the lights come on. unfortunately with DIY I can't turn it off at night so I had to adjust my filstar to airate the water a bit more at night because there aparently is to much CO2 at night. I'm a little hesitant to add the last CO2 generator because of this. I dont have the money right now to invest in a pump for airation and I dont want to do anything that I will have to constantly adjust just to keep enough dissolved O2 in the water and a safe ammount of CO2 at night. i haven't really noticed any major changes yet in the growth of the glosso, I guess a couple more stems are trying to grow horizontally but still aren't quite doing it. Everything looks very healthy though and the small amount of BBA on my anubias and old amazon sword leaves seems to be dieing off. I'm in the final days of waiting out the lifecycle of GDA and it seems to be slowly vanishing on its own now.  

I think what I will have to do is just add the last CO2 generator and work some means of airation into the system for night use only. I'm also in need of a good trim, i've been holding back because I'm waiting for the GDA lifecycle to complete. I think there may be a little more overshadowing of the glosso by the other taller plants then I realize so maybe the glosso isn't getting all the light it could. I'm probably going to be pulling my giant amazon sword soon to help with this as well... its taking up almost half the tank and still growing!!!

will I need to replant all of my glosso thats growing vertically to complete this vertical to horizontal growth transition????


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## Round Head (Feb 28, 2006)

I have the same issue and my conclusion is that glossos will naturally grow horizontally. I even use small pepples to hold them down but eventually they will grow up. I do trim and replant about once every month and within two weeks they look very nice and flat. Then they will head toward the top.
For this reason, I am not a big fan of them as a carpeting plant.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

*Light*

Light seems to be the major factor in determining horizontal growth of _Glossostigma elatinoides_. Even adjusting to high concentrations of CO2 the glosso still grows vertical in my experience. You seem to have enough wattage of light, but penetration of the water and shading of plants can reduce the intensity of the light to the tank's floor.

Once it starts growing vertical, you have to cut and replant to train it to grow horizontially. Otherwise it will continue it's vertical growth.

-John N.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Thanks for the tips John N. I'll do a good trim at my next water change and replant some of the glosso and see if it goes horiz. its going to be a big job to replant it all.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

it seems I have nipped this problem in the bud. I can almost use my glosso as a CO2 indicator, if the Co2 is good new growth points down to the substrate, if co2 is starting to get to low then the new growth points upwards... I can post some pics in a couple days when I can hopefully remove the last of my GDA problem from the glass(stupid 3 week lifecycle crap). let me know if there is interest in the pics, if not I wont waste my time.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

As someone who is battling glosso currently (current growth: diagonal:doh: ),
I would love to see the pix.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Minsc - I'd have to say after this experience if your not getting horizontal growth from glosso I would take a carefull look at your CO2 and Lighting to be sure they are adequate.

here's the pics I was talking about sorry about the crappy quality and GSA, BBA, and GDA lol, I've had some crazy times in the last couple weeks with these three, I even had a CO2 problem I didnt realize right away and you can see it in the glosso growth here, going up then down again. 









ok here is the CRAZY vertical growth and my tank overgrown on 11-15-06








notice the large amazon sword, that is now gone, it was shading everything.

I replanted a small portion of the glosso but here is everything I pulled out









here it is after the re-planting session 11-15-06







I planted it pretty lightly this time to hopefully give me more time before the next trim, plus I could watch it carefully this way. I also planted it with the stems horizontally this time, what was I thinking before. lol

here is a pic I took today 12-6-06 trying to show the generally horizontal growth I'm achieving...









a full tank shot from today









this tank has really become a growout tank while I'm getting things together for my first attempt at a real scape. sorry the pics are soo small, hopefully you can see everything.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

My pH is pretty low (6.0, via controller) with a Carbonate hardness of about 5 dKh...

My glosso goes through cycles of H, then V, then H - now it's V again, and it's frustrating. 

And I've got 4x65W of 10K over the 55G (260W total, and the 65s are brand new, and wow talk about a difference from the 1 1/2 yr old 4x55W (I think I could get sunburned cleaning the tank)).

So, go figure - high-light, high CO2... and high Glosso....


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

taekwondodo - how are you planting your glosso? I have come to find out at least in my experience if you plant it incorrectly from the beginning you will be battling it the whole time.

here's what I have found works best:
-trim the stems down to sprigs containing 2-3 nodes.
-burry the springs with the stem laying horizontal in the substrate as deep as possible, even if the leaves are partially covered. 
-maintain ferts and HIGH lighting and try to keep CO2 as constant and high as possible. 

Any stems which start to grow vertically will need to be redirected by burrying them again horizontally. 


If you allready did this what are your water parameters, GH, KH, what ferts do you dose and how much???


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Regarding your PH of 6.0 with a KH of 5 according to my CO2 table you have 150ppm CO2, which if you have fish is definately impossible. So wouldn't hesitate to think that your PH reading is suspect. It could be effected by many things in the aquarium other than CO2 this is why. Using PH and KH as the indicator for CO2 can be highly inaccurate. I would turn up the CO2 slowly untill the fish are showing signs of stress, this should be 30-50ppm true CO2 concentrations... another method is to use a drop checker which you can read about here


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## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

It's probably KH reading that is suspect. KH kits measure a lot of things besides carbonate and bicarbonate, hence the popularity of drop checkers now that Hoppy has let everyone know they exist and work.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

davis.1841 said:


> Regarding your PH of 6.0 with a KH of 5 according to my CO2 table you have 150ppm CO2, which if you have fish is definately impossible. So wouldn't hesitate to think that your PH reading is suspect. It could be effected by many things in the aquarium other than CO2 this is why. Using PH and KH as the indicator for CO2 can be highly inaccurate. I would turn up the CO2 slowly untill the fish are showing signs of stress, this should be 30-50ppm true CO2 concentrations... another method is to use a drop checker which you can read about here


Actually, it is quite possible (and have been doing this for a long time) - I've had my pH dropped down via the controller (with callibrated probes) to as low as 5.8 without ill effects to the fish. Although I don't give a whole lot of credence to the chart - I know I have plenty of CO2.

I used to use bromo-blue to measure, and was just tired of guessing which shade of yellow-yellowishgreen the kit was showing.

kH isn't suspect either as I measure it a couple of times a week and have verified it with both AP and Salifert kits (which are spot-on accurate).


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I'd be hard pressed to beleive you are actually getting 150+ppm co2 and still have fish that aren't showing signs of stress. Mine head to the surface at 45ppm, granted thats based on PH vs. KH charts so who knows what it really was. However was accomplished however using DIY CO2 in a 75gallon aquarium so I know it was nowhere near 150ppm, I'd be lucky to get 45. Regardless, if your seeing signs of stress from your fish then your at the max CO2 you can use no matter what any means of measuring will tell you.

I'm wondering what else could be causing your diagonal growth... hmm any thoughts out there. What method did you use to plant the glosso initially, were the stems horizontal? Was there a time that you had low CO2 and the growth went vertical. it seems to take a replanting to get good horizontal glosso growth after it goes vertical.


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