# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Sump Design



## ZeroChalk (Nov 25, 2003)

hey,

Just looking on feedback on my sump design. Anyone see any problems?










thanks.


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Well since ya asked...

The drain effluent should be filtered for particulates before spilling over to the bio-balls, otherwise they will get filled with stuff. Bio-balls are more effective when not submerged, assuming the intention is bio-filtration. I would, please note that is "I would", as in this is my opinion, add another flow thru partition to house chemical media when needed. 

gnatster


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## ZeroChalk (Nov 25, 2003)

Nathan,

I'm not too sure if I'm looking to use the bioballs in the same situation as a wet/dry. I was thinking along the lines of a canister filter, ie. from course media to fine media. So perhaps it's more mechanical than biological. 

For chemical filtration I was just going to toss a bag of carbon in to the accessories compartment - depending if it is necessary.

This is my first planted tank so I'm learning as I go. I'll take your advice and place a prefilter in the overflow. 

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

For a pre-filter you may want to look at a 10 micron bag, See http://www.superskimmer.com/sump_tanks.htm for ideas. Tossing a bag of carbon in the open area is not very effective; only the outer edges are exposed to water flow, the center, while wet will not have a constant flow. Tossing the bag of carbon on top of the bio-balls or sponge will force flow through the bag, increasing the effectiveness.

gnatster


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I would use another baffle just before the elbow (exit). In the event that something clogs the intake or syphon breaks to the sump, the return pump won't send all that water to the tank, possibly overflowing it and leaving your accessories running dry.

Giancarlo Podio


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## ZeroChalk (Nov 25, 2003)

Great idea Giancarlo. Just about to implement it into the new design when I realized if I put a baffle just before the end, all the evaporation would occur in that section. Therefore, I would have to put my topoff switch in that section. If the overflow clogged the accessories would remain underwater (a good thing for the heater) but the topoff switch would keep on dumping water in to the tank.

I think I might change the elbow to a strainer instead. That way in the event of the overflow clogging, the only thing I have to worry about is the gallons of water on the floor and not a blown heater. hurray???

[This message was edited by ZeroChalk on Wed March 17 2004 at 03:58 PM.]


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## dysfunctional (Aug 20, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Nathan:
> Well since ya asked...
> ...


I am running my sump filter for planted tanks in a similar manner....my bio balls are also submerged..... I was worried that if I let it trickle as in a normal wet / dry filter, I will loose too much CO2.... appreciate advise as still on the learning curve.


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## imported_Nathan (Feb 17, 2004)

Some thoughts.

Heavily planted tanks require addition of nitrogen, amongst other nutrients. 

Fish waste is rapidly used by the plants.

Bacteria on the bio-media would be competing with the plants for ammonia?? 

It seems to me that the purpose of filtration on a heavily planted tank is to remove particulate matter; the plants handle the “removal” of nitrogenous wastes. 

Given the above, bio-media is not needed.

On the other hand, I may be completely wrong. <- Not just a tag line in this case.


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## Nillo (Jun 11, 2005)

Here's my two cents. I agree that stenuous mechanical filtration before the biomedia will make your life easier. Then you just need to clean the filter sock, or matala often and the biomedia won't clog up very fast. Bioballs act as biomedia when submerged, they increase oxygen exchange when above the water but don't really contribute a whole lot to filtration, except that oxygenated water is very important for aerobic bacteria. Of course in a planted tank you probably don't want to blow off all your CO2 so you wouldn't want to use bioballs in a dry configuration. Having nitrifying bacteria does have benefits however. Ammonium is mre problematic for fish than Nitrates (-ites) Plants like Ammonium more than N's but they can still use N's rather well. Based on that it would be better to get rid of the Ammonium with the bacteria, change it into the safer N's for the plants. I am also wondering why you want to use bioballs. If you have some like I do than I can understand why you would want to reuse them. I would use Matala though it is expensive or a DLS poly, because they have greater surface area. I would also put a small out at the bottom of the sump with a valve so that you can drain the sump easily for cleaning.
Company is here, gotta go.


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## skids (Mar 23, 2004)

Tom Barr recently gave a talk at a SFBAAPS member's open house about sump designs in planted tanks. The owner had a 180 gal with a excellent overflow to sump underneath. He had about 12 adult discus and heavy planting. When it comes to water chemistry they are very demanding for clean water to grow to max size. That he was having success, points out that his sump setup was meeting their needs in combination with the plants. 

Tom's points were: 
Bioballs that are dry blow off your CO2 reducing plant growth. Wet bioballs sucessfully keep NH3 and NO2 down but compete with plants for their needed nutrients. After this guy removed his bioballs completely after 3 + years with them in wet, his plant growth accelerated. He was stunned. He is now trying to minimize his filtration to just physical. 

Don't put any carbon in it, it will reduce the heavy metal traces, particularly Fe, you are adding (TMG, PMDD, Dupla drops etc) thus wasting your money, let the plants use them.

The primary thing about a sump (he said) was to hide your gear out of sight, so he had his heaters, UV, CO2 diffusor, pH probe, and automated water changing system all inside it.
It was really trick. The only media he had in it was for physical filtration a 50 micron bag (from a Magnum HOT) for polishing and capturing algal spores, which he swapped and bleached every two weeks. he had automated 50% water changes weekly. He also had a magnum cannister with just coarse, med foam, and wool for big particulates on the inflow to the sump. 

You might try the bioballs just at first until your plants get going and then remove them when they plants appear to be growing enough (with enough biomass) to handle all the filtration needs. 

Other cool thing with sumps is you can dose ferts down there and it gives you a neat place to grow emersed plants too if you put a light under your tank.


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## Aqua Dave (Mar 16, 2004)

This is an interesting topic for me as I'm running a 150 gal with a wet/dry (i.e. sump). I chose this route for the reasons mentioned at the talk. Mainly keeping everything out of the tank and in the stand. I also like the fact that using an overflow maintains a fixed water level in the aquarium. The sump is where the water loss shows up. The only equipment I have in the tank is my Ph probe as I was concerned the Ph in the sump might be different than the Ph in the tank due to CO2 loss through the biomedia. I haven't verified this yet as I've slowly been lowering my Ph in the tank back down to 7 after adding my fish in from non-CO2 aquariums.

I currently have the bioballs in the filter and suspect I'm losing a great deal of CO2 that way. I seem to be using CO2 much faster than other people. I'm able to maintain 15ppm CO2, but I need a pretty high bubble rate, 5-6 bps, to get it. I've been thinking about removing the bioballs and just letting the water drain directly into the sump. I wasn't sure what effect this would have on the tank's bio filtration, though. Based on the experience of the guy at the talk, it sounds like removing the balls may be the way to go. I just need some extension pipes to quiet the noise of the falling water.

I'd be curious of hearing about anyone elses experince using sumps as well. No sense in reinventing the wheel if someone else has already done it.

David


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## Nillo (Jun 11, 2005)

I would try to keep everything mechanical. Biofiltration is going to give you phosphates, but I think that Roger could give a better explanation of that. If you are doing a dry bioball with CO2; stop it. You are wasting CO2. That plants will provide you with enough O2. I'm not using a sock, but I keep my filters pretty clean. I have been thinking about switching however since a reefer friend of mine is having great success in his SW tank with one. Also, you can toss them in the washing machine.

II personally like sumps because they get the hardware out of the display and create a utility area. They also give you extra total volume.


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## skids (Mar 23, 2004)

Don't like the sound of falling water ? Antoher issue is it has so much exposure to the atmosphere, you outgas your CO2, check this link aomeone posted on another board:

This link 
> seems to have one of the best DIY solutions to drain noise.
> 
> http://www.3reef.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=DIY;action=
> display;num=1069293875

Next consider these comments, sorry I can't take this offline to each of you, it's probably not koser to crosspost so much, but it's from a local list:
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:29:00 -0000
From: "Jeff Kropp" 
Subject: Re: A Sump (wet/dry) is a wonderful thing

I agree that a sump is a wonderful thing. It only takes a few 
minutes glance under a tank like Bob's to realize a sumps 
remarkable ability to hide neccessary mechanisms.

However there a 3 parts of the most common wet/dry design that 
offer little benefit to submersed aquatic gardeners:

1). Tank high waterfall in overflow box that reduces water to thin 
sheets which maximize atmospheric diffusion.

2) Air sucking power of the vortex created by floor mounted 
drains.

3) The trickle mechanism in the sump that again spreads the 
water volume out and then trickles over bioballs to maximize 
surface area interaction with the water.

There are of course over-the-side overflow boxes available. 
These eliminate 2 cited drawbacks and free up additional floor 
space. When one combines this with a sump containing all 
their technical gagetry a very showy solution is achieved.

Jeff

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:10:21 -0500
From: "Thomas Barr"
Subject: RE: Re: A Sump (wet/dry) is a wonderful thing

Ideal sumps:

High water level in the prefilter=> reduced splash, noise, more prefilter
contact surface area.

Bag micron filters, very useful and very good at fine particulate removal.
If they clog, they over flow into sump, not back up etc. 
You can make your own or buy them pre made also at various micron ratings
and you can also put a bag in a bag, say a 50 mic and out side a 5 micron
bag. 
These can be bleched and cleaned easily. 
You can also use a 9 3/4" cartiage filter and splice a line off the return
pump for another approach to micron filtering

Constant water level in the tank.

Sump auto top off methods, Alan's auto water changer.

CO2, heater etc out of the tank

Bad points, requires far more electric than a canister, not as quiet,
generally cost more, more bulky.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Aqua Dave (Mar 16, 2004)

This is good info. I have an All-glass aquarium with their overflows and stand-pipe/return. It's a very good design and the water in the overflow is only a couple inches below the water in the tank. I get minimal noise from the overflow and I don't think I get too much CO2 loss there.

The noise I'm worried about is when I remove the bioballs from the filter. The water will no longer trickle down through the balls, but will drain directly into the sump. That's going to be a drop of 8-10" and will proabably be pretty noisy.

I think I'm going to try and turn my bio-ball tower into some sort of multiple-stage mechanical filtration device. My problem will be how to do this while minimizing CO2 loss.

In regard to the micron bag, where do you put this? Is it being put on the inlet to the sump? On the outlet? or just somewhere in the sump? Would a foam filter block achieve the same thing? I already have one of those in the filter.

David


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## Nillo (Jun 11, 2005)

You are probably going to want to get rid of the bioball tower. this is not going to be beneficial to your plants.

With regards to noise and water fall, you can just put in a piece of apppropriately sized rigid pipe so that the line terminates in the water. the other thing you can do is raise or add a baffle so that the waterlevel in sump inlet area is higher

I'm thinking that you would probably want to put the mechanical filtration underwater so that it doesn't turn into a big gas exchange surface.

The micron filter sock would be put on the inlet to the sump. If you have any biological filtration in the sump such as a foam filter block, you are going to want to keep that free of detritus so that it remains an effective filter. The bacteria also produces detritus, so remember to clean that out occassionally.

the foam block can be used as mechanical filtration, but you have to remember that there is going to be a bacteria colony if the thing is submerged. A micron bag or panel is going to give you little surface area for bacteria to grow on, and is easier to clean.


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