# Need advice on 29 gallon - New to plants



## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

Hey guys,

have a few questions on a new tank I'm wanting to start. I've got the following equipment picked out, ready to be ordered.

65w dual daylight satelite fixture
CO2 Natural Plant System
A few pieces of Malaysian driftwood
200W Stealth Heater
1100 Rio Aquapump (For my RO container)
Pure-Flo II 24GPD RO Unit 

I'm wondering, though, whether flourite or eco complete would be better? I'm new to planted tanks, but not tanks in general. I've done cichlid tanks, a few misc freshwater tanks, and am currently maintaining a reef tank. I never had much luck with freshwater plants, then again, I was using basic flourescent lamps, low wattage, no co2 and no additives. 

I'm looking for something simple, hence the CO2 natural plant system. I currently use tap water which comes out at 8.3-8.4 pH and hard as a rock. I'm hoping the RO system will at least bring the water down to 7.0. I've got some RO right to mix into the water to help stabalize things. I'm wanting to add fish though, like a pair of angelfish, corydoras, and maybe a small bristlenose or rubberlip plecostomus.

What do you think? Any advice on starting plants? Etc?

Am I missing anything?

Thanks guys!


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Here's some reading which you might find beneficial:
DFW Aquatic Plant Club Articles-- Beginner Basics: Introduction
Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...m-plants/14684-new-tank-set-up-parts-1-a.html


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

*Co2*

My first planted tank was a 29 gallon. I think you will find that the "Natural Plant System" is really too small for that tank.

I ran mine with a DIY CO2 system for along time before I opted for pressurized gas. In fact, I began with the Natural Plant system on it and very soon moved to a much larger DIY container for more gas and longer life. That was sort of fun, messing with different recipes and yeasts and such. Eventually I tired of all that fun and went to gas.

Depending on where you get it, you'll spend $20 or $30 for that Natural Plant system, of that you may decide to keep the bubble ladder later on. But, my guess is that, as an experianced aquarist, you will soon want the pressurized gas. If you are not money-limited, I suggest going for the gas now and skipping all the fuss of yeast. Did I say fuss, I meant fun.


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## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

My biggest worry, and the reason I went with the Natural CO2 system, is that I have a newborn on the way and my biggest fear is that the CO2 will leak due to a bad connection, or get tipped over and become a missle. The natural CO2 system sounds like a fool proof way. 

I'm also on a tight budget, as I mentioned earlier in the post (Newborn on the way in March). If I went with two of the Co2 systems, would that be adequate perhaps? What if it we're supplemented with liquid Co2? Or would it be better to go with the DIY co2? It's going to be in the bedroom right next to my side of the bed. I hear DIY Co2 smells REALLY bad! I'm trying everything I can to convince my wife of why we need another tank.

Will two of those systems work?

Thanks for the help!


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

from what people have commented on in the past, the natural co2 system is pretty much DIY co2, just somewhat prettier. you can save yourself some money just going with DIY if cost is a factor.

as for the safety of pressurized co2, there is no real risk if you use basic common sense when setting it up and maintaining. leaks are no big deal, other than the loud hiss of escaping gas. and unless you wrap a plastic bag with a hose connected to the leaking gas, there's no real danger of poisoning. as for the tank tipping over... as long as it is placed out of the way, inside a milk crate, or strapped to some form of support, you would be fine.

of course the cost of the initial setup is daunting, pressurized co2 offers consistent supply of gas for your plants. but at this point, with your newborn on the way, i would put that down as "future wish-list purchase".

hope this helps and congratulations!


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

*I like both systems*

Ok, with a baby in the picture I want to change what I said. The budget is really important now and you don't need to make the tank an issue with your wife, she has enough going on without being jelous of your fish tank.

I really like the Natural Plant System, it is neat and tidy, nearly foolproof. Easy to refill and with two units you just change one each week and never run low. Rinse the lines out occasionally, rinse the container out if it has any odor, usually it wont. Refill with bread yeast nd 1 teaspoon baking soda and skip the refill packets. Give the top an extra 1/4 turn after you think it is tight. Snails will be a bother if you have them for they mess up the travel of the bubbles. But, it is an elegant solution, particularly how the unit hangs on the back of the fish tank, out of sight and out of reach of tiny hands. A good intro to planted tanks as the CO2 makes the plants grow so nicely.

Pressurized is great, once it is set, no problems until the end of the tank when you may get a CO2 dump that kills fish. But a tank on a moderately lit tank would last for maybe 2 years if you have no leaks.

I suggest getting the Natural Plant system if you can find it cheap, like $20. A pressurized system can be had for about $200 if you shop the tank carefully, get a 5 lb for $75 or less, then add an All-in-One regulator/solenoid/bubble counter for $90, Co2 tubing for $10 and Eheim difusser for $15. Watch for a used system for about $150 or so.

I've done it all the different ways, each is appropriate for certain budgets and tank sizes. The 29 gallon is in the grey area, kinda small for the cost of pressurized, kinda big for the Natural Plant System. Based on the budget you probably have with the baby on the way, I think you ought to go cheaper and later on if you go to a bigger tank someday, plan on the pressurized gas for that.

With the RO system, you may find that your water is so soft that one unit is enough. Do be careful, I have read of someone killing a 55 gallon tank with a Natural Plant System becasue his water was so low KH. Test to be sure you don't get too much Co2.


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## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

Thanks for the helpful reply. I think I'm going to get two of the natural CO2 systems. They are really in my budget vs a co2 system. My wife wouldn't consider that necessary at all. I tease her alot but it's almost like going in front of a committee to get approved. LOL.  

I just finished pleading my case for a Pure-Flo II RO filter for my new planted tank. I've got pH coming out of the tap at 8.3-8.4. I know it's got to be hard as a rock, but I haven't tested the kh or gh values yet. I know plants haven't done well in the past, but then again, I didn't have adequate lighting OR any type of fertilizer or co2. Swordplants lived for a few weeks, and the anachris grew like crazy, but then again... lol.

I'm really not sure if the hard water and high ph had anything to do with it, but I'd love to keep some angels and other soft water fish. I know anything that can live in water with that high of a pH really isn't suited to a planted tank (african cichlids). 

I think that system would be much better (natural co2 system) vs a bunch of soda bottles laying around the stand. Much more appealing to the eyes, I suppose. 

I'm going to be running a Rena Filstar XP2 on the tank for filtration, and I'm hoping to get 2 bags of eco complete, however I'm not sure if that's what I want. I'm looking for a tannish sandy looking substrate. I've got some pool filter sand, but again, not sure what that's going to do as far as algae goes. It's a silicate sand, and I had it in a reef tank and didn't notice any problems. Could I mix say, 15 lbs of sand with 15 lbs of flourite and be OK? Is that going to be enough to grow an adequate number of plants? As far as lighting I'm going to go with a 65 watt power compact light. I'm sure that will be more than enough lighting for the easy to grow plants anyway.


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## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

Sounds great. Sorry for the double post. I'm glad to hear that you enjoy that system, and I certainly think it will work out in my situation. It's great to know that you can make your own mix to put in the unit. I'll definitely be doing that. I'm sure that's extremely cheap, right? I've never purchased bread yeast. If I ever get a bigger tank and decide to go with plants, I'll definitely be looking at a pressurized CO2 tank, but hopefully, by that point, our budget will be a bit more flexible.

I'll be purchasing my Natural Co2 system through petsolutions.com for $19.99.


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## draal5 (Jan 13, 2007)

I hope this works this is my first post here.
aquariumguys.com has the Hagen Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System for $17.99 which imho is a good price and excellent store.

PS get a lot of sleep now because after the newborn comes it's hard to come by

Hagen Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System


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## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

Wow. That really is a great price! I'll have to check them out. I might even order my other supplies from them as well. I get a discount there so it only makes sense, haha! 

You're right about not getting any sleep, but I'm still really looking forward to it. This will be our first child. We found out we are having a girl. My wife is ecstatic. Girls like aquariums too, right?


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

*Big Al's Online $15.99*

Big Al's beat that by a bit.

If you dont already HAVE the RO system, don't invest, you really don't need it!! Hard water is fine for most plants. Plants require some calcium and magnesium and you'll just spend money replacing what you threw out.

Then you can splurge and get 2 Co2 systems, which will be about right for that tank. And get some really long tweezers, many of these online stores carry them. Nice for planting small things.

As for gravel, my tanks were Flourite, though one I managed for a school was a 50% mix of flourite and pool filter sand. Once you get the plants growing, you won't notice much of the gravel. Size does matter and the larger particles will come to the top so you don't want a fine sand, pool filter sand is more like tiny gravel IMO.

Next, you need to be sure the lighting is OK, the thing to be sure of with the 29 gallon is that the bulb is nearly as long as the tank. I had a 55 watt retrofit and the bulb was maybe 6 or 8 inches shorter than the tank, so it left a dark spot that was noticible at each side when the plants grew to the surface. I had been advised the AHSupply to try a 2x36watt retrofit instead for better coverage but for some reason I didn't do it.

If you get a dual 65 watt fixture, for 130 watts total, I think you are going to have too much light. OK, but only if the lights are on separate controls so you can have one on for the full day and the other on only for a noontime blast, or overlap them for the same total hours. Run them both all the time and you'll have high temps and more growth than you have time to deal with, and your ferts will tend to run out leaving deficencies. Much better to do moderate light, IMO.

And then get fertilizers. I suggest mixing your own via Greg Watson.com or buy the parts locally. KNO3 from a feed store, MgSo4 as Epsom salts if your water has low Mg (check water report to know), traces (for iron and such) and some source of Phosphates (several available, Wardley's sodium biphosphate pH reducer, Fleet enema?)

And yes, women LOVE planted tanks! If you have an eye for design, it is like a living floral arrangement, with live fish instead of flowers. I predict she will want the tank where she can see it as she is nursing the baby, sure beats watching the TV. Do your best to copy the design methods of some of the showcase tanks available to look at here and through the AGA's contest site. Don't bore her with the technical details (unless she is techie herself), just let her enjoy the beauty.


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## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

My biggest worry is the super high pH. Are there a lot of plants that can live in high ph, hard water? The next worry is fish selection. I know most cichlids eat plants. I know you can do a pair of convicts, which I love, in a 29 gallon, but then again, they eat plants like it was a vegetable buffet. 

I keep a reef tank that works great with the tap water, even though I do have the occassional algae problems. The calcium and other minerals in the water really helps. 

I thought it would be cool to keep some angels and tetras in my tank, but that's no big deal. 

So, as a recap, most plants tolerate high ph, hard water? As long as I've got Co2 and ferts, I should be OK, right? Are there any fish that you would recommend for my tank that are plant friendly or somewhat friendly?

PS: As far as lighting goes, it's either going to have a 192 W corallife fixture with one side running only (96 watts) or more likely a satellite 65w fixture. I think the satellite would be a bit better, giving me a tad bit over 2 watts per gallon. I think I could have a very decent planted tank with that kind of lighting and some flourite or eco complete.

Thanks!


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## mv1175 (Jan 21, 2007)

zmazza said:


> Wow. That really is a great price! I'll have to check them out. I might even order my other supplies from them as well. I get a discount there so it only makes sense, haha!
> 
> You're right about not getting any sleep, but I'm still really looking forward to it. This will be our first child. We found out we are having a girl. My wife is ecstatic. Girls like aquariums too, right?


I would not worry about your daughter not enjoying the aquarium. Both of my girls love ours. My 4 year old wants her own aquarium


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Hi Zmazza, 
One way you can save a bit more cash is on your substrate. I use this stuff called Soil Master Select. It is sold through Lesco. I have the charcoal color and it looks fabulous! The plants grow very well and root easily. There are many threads about it here, so read up about it. The best part...

You can do your substrate for only 15 bucks! 50 pounds will be more than enough for you.

Good luck with your tank and with your baby girl! Girls love tanks. I had so much fun messing around with the tank with my Dad. Good memories.


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## zmazza (Aug 29, 2006)

Thanks for the help. I have a really good feeling that my little girl is just going to be an absolute fan of aquariums. I can see having to buy her her own aquarium very shortly down the road, lol. I know my wife can easily sit in front of our reef tank for hours, just mesmerized by it's beauty. We talked about a new tank last night and turns out she's not worried about another tank, it's the finances. So, I'm going to move some 'assets' around. I'm going to sell our breeding pair of parrots as well as some sound system equipment that I have. That should give me enough to get a 55 gallon. I may hold off on the plants for now just because I don't want to go pressurized CO2 yet, and the natural CO2 system is way too small for a 55 gallon. I'm thinking a cichlid community with a ton of slate rocks in there. What do you guys think? If you had a 55 gallon and limited cash to outfit it, what all would you get? Or put in there?

I've got the rena xp2 already, and I'm going to get the 55 gallon kit from petsmart. So that will give me the lighting. I've got a pengiun 200 as well that I can throw on there, if need be. The stand is going to be built out of plywood, so that will be super cheap. 

What substrate would you use? Can you go with no CO2 and have some amount of plants? What fish would you stock? Keep in mind that I have an unaltered pH of 8.4


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