# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Tetra/Tetra-Tech Boycott



## Dev Goddess (Mar 14, 2003)

Hey everyone,

Don't know if you've all been informed yet, but last week CBS's Early Show featured a demonstration by Tetra representative Carol Huntley Weber on how easy and "idiot proof" it is to set up a "Nemo tank". To make a long story short, she placed these fish in a tiny tank, didn't even mention salt, and made it sound as though keeping these delicate fish is a breeze.

(For more info, check out this thread on Reef Central Forums)

There are several horrible things wrong with this picture. First and foremost, this setup will surely condemn any saltwater fish to certain doom. Secondly, she presented saltwater fishkeeping as "easy", which is essentially pouring gasoline on the deadly fire of saltwater fish popularity among the uneducated spawned by the movie "Finding Nemo". It's bad enough that parents are buying their kids "Nemo fish" on the spur of the moment because the movie has made them popular, but now we've got a company that makes products for tropical fish telling the masses that it's "easy".

Not to mention, Tetra is primarily a FRESHWATER company. This woman had no place giving a saltwater demonstration. It's truly a case of abuse against these animals.

Now, I know this forum is primarily targeted at freshwater aquarists, because, of course, we grow the lion's share of aquarium plants. However, I know that there are probably several of us, like me, who keep salt tanks as well. It doesn't matter if you're into salt or not; you keep your aquatic flora and fauna because you love them and you have respect for life. Even the most die-hard freshwater enthusiast still knows the value of a hippo tang or a percula clown.

Needless to say, the saltwater community is in a rage. We've started an email campaign to Tetra, CBS, and even other news agencies.

We're advocating a boycott of Tetra products, and I'm urging the freshwater community to do the same. I know we, the freshwater aquarists, can really hit Tetra where it hurts and send a message that fish are valuable and NOT a money making scheme for corporations to exploit.

Ok, my bleeding-heart evironmentalist rant is done. Thanks for listening to me.

-------------------------
Dev Goddess

Developer / Analyst / Criminal Mastermind

_"Size doesn't matter. It's all about speed and performance."_

[This message was edited by Dev Goddess on Mon June 16 2003 at 08:59 AM.]


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## Dev Goddess (Mar 14, 2003)

Hey everyone,

Don't know if you've all been informed yet, but last week CBS's Early Show featured a demonstration by Tetra representative Carol Huntley Weber on how easy and "idiot proof" it is to set up a "Nemo tank". To make a long story short, she placed these fish in a tiny tank, didn't even mention salt, and made it sound as though keeping these delicate fish is a breeze.

(For more info, check out this thread on Reef Central Forums)

There are several horrible things wrong with this picture. First and foremost, this setup will surely condemn any saltwater fish to certain doom. Secondly, she presented saltwater fishkeeping as "easy", which is essentially pouring gasoline on the deadly fire of saltwater fish popularity among the uneducated spawned by the movie "Finding Nemo". It's bad enough that parents are buying their kids "Nemo fish" on the spur of the moment because the movie has made them popular, but now we've got a company that makes products for tropical fish telling the masses that it's "easy".

Not to mention, Tetra is primarily a FRESHWATER company. This woman had no place giving a saltwater demonstration. It's truly a case of abuse against these animals.

Now, I know this forum is primarily targeted at freshwater aquarists, because, of course, we grow the lion's share of aquarium plants. However, I know that there are probably several of us, like me, who keep salt tanks as well. It doesn't matter if you're into salt or not; you keep your aquatic flora and fauna because you love them and you have respect for life. Even the most die-hard freshwater enthusiast still knows the value of a hippo tang or a percula clown.

Needless to say, the saltwater community is in a rage. We've started an email campaign to Tetra, CBS, and even other news agencies.

We're advocating a boycott of Tetra products, and I'm urging the freshwater community to do the same. I know we, the freshwater aquarists, can really hit Tetra where it hurts and send a message that fish are valuable and NOT a money making scheme for corporations to exploit.

Ok, my bleeding-heart evironmentalist rant is done. Thanks for listening to me.

-------------------------
Dev Goddess

Developer / Analyst / Criminal Mastermind

_"Size doesn't matter. It's all about speed and performance."_

[This message was edited by Dev Goddess on Mon June 16 2003 at 08:59 AM.]


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Time to send some letters!


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## Dev Goddess (Mar 14, 2003)

There ya go!

There are email addresses and stuff buried in that Reef Central Thread. I'm digging them up...

Tetra Products - [email protected] or [email protected]
http://www.tetra.de/index_gb.cfm?seite=51 (a short form)
1 800 526 0650 press 2 (Leave a message for the president of Tetra)

CBS Early Show - [email protected]

Also, people are notifying Fox News...

Fox News - [email protected]

There are probably several more, but these are the main contacts.

-------------------------
Dev Goddess

Developer / Analyst / Criminal Mastermind

_"Size doesn't matter. It's all about speed and performance."_


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## Dev Goddess (Mar 14, 2003)

This is info for Tetra.

-------------------------
Dev Goddess

Developer / Analyst / Criminal Mastermind

_"Size doesn't matter. It's all about speed and performance."_


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## Harvey (Apr 23, 2003)

i read that two days or so ago (whenever it was announced) and I have to say that i'm rather pissed about that.

to make matters worse, I now have like 4 people calling me asking me to help them set up a marine tank







(due to Nemo I think). I'm all about the boycott. Half the people who want to start up a marine tank arent even intelligent enough to start one up.


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

boycott? i already don't buy their products







but ya... saltwater tanks are expensive and delicate... i hate people in general who get pets and don't think about the care that is required. just another flaming fad that will die out. i mean, i'm in the market for a hedgehog right now... but i'm not buying for a while and i've been researching everything i need to know about it... already found 2 vets in the area that i can go to... animals are living things! hell i even feel bad about throwing plant clippings away!







i honestly don't like saltwater that much (too much upkeep) BUT if i did, i would want percula clowns (they ARE cute) but... i'd want a small healthy setup, not an overstocked amalgam of too-big fish for a tiny tank. dumb people... dumb dumb dumb...

JP


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks. I was just about to order a Tetra Tec DW air pump. Think I'll look elsewhere.


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

Personally, I think people are making alot out of not much, but I can understand the sentiment. Maybe in this new enlightened age everyone out there knows exactly how to setup and maintain a proper environment for their fish before they get started, but many of us started with a goldfish in the bowl, saw it die, tried another, saw it die and then started to get serious. Perhaps all of these "Nemo" people will actually be stimulated as well after trying (and quite possibly failing) after seeing this demonstration. I agree it is somewhat irresponsible of this lady to leave so much out, but who's to say she didn't plan on giving more information only to be cutoff by the talk show directors? As always, people have a knee jerk reaction and call for boycots, lynchings, and legislation. Seems like the same type of reaction got snakeheads banned not too long ago. Me, I'll keep buying the Tetra products I like and hope someone out there becomes a magnificent reef keeper from their "Nemo" experiment.

Dave


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## Dev Goddess (Mar 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by DaveStall:
> Personally, I think people are making alot out of not much, but I can understand the sentiment. Maybe in this new enlightened age everyone out there knows exactly how to setup and maintain a proper environment for their fish before they get started, but many of us started with a goldfish in the bowl, saw it die, tried another, saw it die and then started to get serious. Perhaps all of these "Nemo" people will actually be stimulated as well after trying (and quite possibly failing) after seeing this demonstration. I agree it is somewhat irresponsible of this lady to leave so much out, but who's to say she didn't plan on giving more information only to be cutoff by the talk show directors? As always, people have a knee jerk reaction and call for boycots, lynchings, and legislation. Seems like the same type of reaction got snakeheads banned not too long ago. Me, I'll keep buying the Tetra products I like and hope someone out there becomes a magnificent reef keeper from their "Nemo" experiment.
> ...


Keeping a goldfish is a hell of a lot different than keeping a clown or a tang. I highly doubt that too many people will become magnificent reef keepers from bad "Nemo" experiments. You become a good reef keeper from educating yourself and trying your damndest to do things the RIGHT way.

And in the mean time, how many thousands of fish will have to die?

You, sir, apparently have VERY little knowledge of reef tanks, and if you do, then you certainly should know better.

-------------------------
Dev Goddess

Developer / Analyst / Criminal Mastermind

_"Size doesn't matter. It's all about speed and performance."_


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Dev Goddess:
> 
> Keeping a goldfish is a hell of a lot different than keeping a clown or a tang.


It probably is. I never equated the two in any such way. Of course, I try not to impose my personal opinion on the worth of any fish .. it is what it is to those that keep it. Keeping them might be different, but keeping either in improper conditions is of course wrong.



> quote:
> 
> I highly doubt that too many people will become magnificent reef keepers from bad "Nemo" experiments. You become a good reef keeper from educating yourself and trying your damndest to do things the RIGHT way.


That is how YOU became (I assume) a successful reef keeper. My LFS owner became a magnificent reefkeeper in just the way I suggested. He started without knowing anything, failed miserably and then got serious. It is how many of use became successful freshwater hobbiests as well. When I was younger,we would go to the fish store and buy whatever looked good. Most of them died, we started to wonder why, and that is when the "hobby" became real.



> quote:
> 
> You, sir, apparently have VERY little knowledge of reef tanks, and if you do, then you certainly should know better.


I never claimed to have any knowledge about reefs really, and you missed my point anyhow. I'm not saying I support the improper keeping of ANY animal (even the poor goldfish in the bowl). I just think people are going off half cocked over something relatively minor.

[This message was edited by DaveStall on Tue June 17 2003 at 01:15 PM.]


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> I just think people are going off half cocked over something relatively minor.


Minor being relative here.

Some people get extremely upset over moral issues when it comes to fish keeping. I read a thread on another forum that had a pic of a piranha ripping a feeder goldfish in half an he got flamed beyond all reason. Nobody was willing to understand the simple fact that feeders are sold for just this purpose.

I try to avoid all moral subjects as they tend to point out the hypocrisy in all of us.


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## CichPhreak (Feb 9, 2003)

An e-mail or letter writing campaign is a good idea but a boycott probably is not. By advocating a boycott you will not be hurting Tetra but instead anybody that sells Tetra products. Tetra is a global company and most people that keep fish more than likely didn't even see the show you are referring to. It's not the LFS's fault that bad information was put out. More education is the key.

[This message was edited by Stargazer on Tue June 17 2003 at 04:43 PM.]


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

dave, you also miss another important fact in your goldfish analogy... almost all common freshwater fish are raised and bred. all the "beginner" fish that people kill are raised in big old tanks across the country. they were never wild fish to begind with. that's why most people don't like hunting, but still eat meat. cows don't roam the wild west frolicking in the tall grass... they get raised in big old ranches and slaughtered for food. for better or for worse, people need to draw a line at what is "moral" and what's not, and usually it depends on what harms the environment. if something is raised BY us FOR us then we don't sympathize as much, and that's why feeder goldfish are no big deal. saltwater is the exact opposite. only a very small handful of saltwater fish are actually raised in captivity (i can only think of percula clowns and those damn annoying damsels). basically most of the stuff we get comes straight from the ocean. the fish you see in the store most likely came from a great expanse of sea somewhere, and now it's trying to understand why it can see through, but not swim through, the glass. saltwater fish are not expendible, for every 1000 fish that people "learn" with (and kill) another 1000 must be pulled from the ocean. with goldfish and neons, this isn't a problem. we just build some more breeding tanks, but we're not overfishing our oceans and ruining reefs. this is why animal lovers take great care of and pride in the wild animals they care for. the animal was once wild and free, and now it's caged, the the BEST we can do for it is give it the best environment we can. i personally try not to kill any fish (or any animal) that i keep because that's cruel. i do eat cows pigs and chickens because i need to eat, and they were bred by us to be eatten. i will NOT eat duck, pheasant, deer, and a whole slew of other animals because i would rather the animals continue to live in freedom. saltwater is not a hobby that people should just "rush" into because the damages are more serious than more environmentally-friendly hobbies. hamsters, cats, dogs, freshwater fish... we don't rip most of them from nature. saltwater we do, and that's what upsets most people. drawing a morality line is tough to do, but that is where many people place theirs.

stargazer, actually boycotts can be very effective. it won't do diddly here because nobody knows about it, but a widespread boycott can slaughter a company while barely hurting channel members. basically if i went to store and didn't want brand A, i'd just buy brand B. so would everyone else. the store's stock of brand A would stay on the shelves, so it would not order any more brand A from their distributor next time. the distributor would realize that nobody is buying brand A anymore so he would call up his wholesaler and say "hey, we're backlogged with brand A so we don't want any more" the wholesaler would then turn directly to brand A company and say "none of my distributors are buying any more of your goods, we don't want to purchase any more from you" and WHAM brand A's sales are hurt. think of fur coats... nordstroms sales weren't hurt even though people almost completely stopped buying real fur coats. instead, they went through that whole chain until the suppliers of the goods had a much smaller market to sell to. boycotts have to be widespread to be effective, but they can be extremely effective. for a long time people stopped buying tuna unless it was labeled as "dolphin safe" and that completely changed the tuna industry. but you're right... a boycot of tetra goods by 0.5% of their customers won't do diddly









JP


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## Rene (Jun 7, 2003)

WOW, its amazing how many people are talking about this particular event. It doesnt even sound like too many people ACTUALLY SAW the show, yet they take everything so seriously. Everybody has to lighten up, there is no point in "flaming" this subject any further.

Facts:
Did anyone really see the show? Or did you hear it from other people?

If someone that did watch the show decided to buy NEMO fish, then they will have to go to the LFS and buy it. I am sure the LFS will guide them on how to keep marine fish successfully.

People that are entering this hobby are not dumb, maybe just ignorant. So, educate the "new" people. Yes, that is not our job, but if you really care about fish then it is your duty to do so. 


Finally, the more people in the fish keeping hobby, means more goodies coming in from companies such as marineland, hikari, hagen, eheim, tetra, etc.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

Most of you have made excellent points, but I'm going to side with DaveStall and Rene here with these particular points:

1) DaveStall has an excellent point in that we should be seizing this opportunity to attract more people into this hobby, not push them out like a bunch of elitist snobs. Granted, I don't want to see the waste of thousands of wild-caught fish (or even captive bred specimens, for that matter), but we can go about this differently. Educate people. If someone wants to set up a saltwater tank, don't just scare them off. Explain all the necessary details and see if they're still interested. 
Growth in the hobby can only help us, as hobbyists, by reducing prices and improving technology.

2) Rene also made a great point - I've never seen the show, and I'm willing to bet the vast majority of you haven't seen the show, either. And even if the Tetra representative didn't offer an appropriate caveat, perhaps the edited it out to make it seem easier for people to keep a "Nemo" in their homes. In that case we should be boycotting CBS, or just the Early Show.

Bottom Line: Don't believe everything you read. Question everything and find out for yourself whether or not it is true.

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Good points, Sam. I agree with you, and with Dave also. I didn't see the show either, and wouldn't venture an opinion unless I had. But I would be willing to bet that Tetra would not condone anyone implying you could take a clownfish, stick it in a bowl of tap water and expect it to survive.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

I'm siding with Vicki, Dave, and Rene. I am
noticing a lot of rumors and inconsistent
remarks flying around about the show. First,
it was a 15 gallon. Then it got downgraded
to a 5 gallon bow a few posts downward, for
example.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I didn't see the show. I did check Tetra's web site. Their newsroom includes a press release dated May 23, 2003 that anticipates the effects of "Finding Nemo" on the popularity of fish as pets.

In the news release Tetra clearly anticipates that the people buying into the hobby as a result of the movie will be buying into freshwater fish. Even though the release recognizes that Nemo is a clownfish, there is no hint that Tetra is advising anyone to keep saltwater fish.

Maybe their spokesman made a mistake and said something that implied that a clownfish could be kept in a freshwater setup. That does not appear to be Tetra's official stand, so either a) something happened in the program presentation that made it appear that Tetra was giving bad advice (which would not be Tetra's fault) or b) some overzealous members of the public have woefully misinterpeted what was actually said.

Like I said at the beginning, I didn't see the show. With no more information than I have I have to expect that option (b) is most likely.

Roger Miller


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I have never had a salt water tank, don't really want to, and I know nothing about them. I didn't see the show. But I am very unclear what it is exactly that you are accusing Tetra of doing... You said she stuck this fish in a small tank and didn't even mention salt....? Is that it? Was there something else?

The point is that the movie is generating a lot of public interest in aquariums. Most likely this would translate to higher sales in freshwater rather than salt water. People will be looking for the least expensive set up for their kids. I imagined this would primarily be goldfish bowls, the beta vase, aquababies, and little micro tanks. I doubt very much if anyone would spend the money for a salt water tank just to indulge their childrens passing interest. Except those who it sparks a deep sincere interest. And I don't think those people would be so stupid to put a salt water fish in a freshwater tank.

I started this hobby keeping guppies in a fruit jar as a kid. Sure it was a stupid thing to do, but it sparked a life long interest in the hobby.

Tetra is trying to capitolize on this. Its simply PR to generate interest, not education. Anything that gets people in the door of a pet shop is good for business and Tetra. Its up to the store to provide education. Actually when it comes right down to it, its up to the customer to get educated. There are plenty of tools out there to get the education. Do you know that something like 70% of people who buy aquariums lose interest in it within 2 years?

From a business stand point, I love what the movie is doing, and I think its fantastic that Tetra went public to help carry the interest even further. If it trickles down to me, thats even better! If they are completely misleading the public in the process thats not good, but I find that a little hard to believe.

I wasn't going to say this because I never want to make fun of someones beliefs, but not everyone, not even every serious hobbyist shares the "moral" view of fish keeping. While I do not want to see anyone intentionaly torture any animal, its still just a fish! When I read these long threads about what the best way is to put a suffering fish out of its misery, I think its ridiculous. Flush them down the toilet, feed them to your cat...it makes no difference to me. I supported the boycott of Aquababies and the Betta vase because it seems ridiculous to keep a fish in conditions where it can not live, but to make moral judgements on the issue? I will leave that to the PETA people.

After reading the press release that Roger put a link to, I fully agree with Roger. I would read that press release and really go thru their WEB site before you rush to judgement.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Thu June 19 2003 at 12:56 AM.]

[This message was edited by Robert H on Thu June 19 2003 at 01:16 AM.]


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

I agree with you Robert. They are just Fish.
As for the tetra products to be sincere tetra foods are the best I ever used. As for us in Greece I bet you there is not even one serious reef tank in Greece as for the program. What program?







There is no nemo movie here yet even.


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Robert H:
> While I do not want to see anyone intentionaly torture any animal, its still just a fish! When I read these long threads about what the best way is to put a suffering fish out of its misery, I think its ridiculous. Flush them down the toilet, feed them to your cat...it makes no difference to me.


With all due respect (and you know I like and respect you immensely, Robert), I was rather troubled after reading this. It's unfortunate that moralizing the issue of fish- or petkeeping should somehow be seen as a goody-two-shoes exercise in political correctness or oversensitivity, and I think PETA shoulders much of the blame here. PETA merely represents one _extreme_ end of the moral spectrum, but, as people are wont, the issue is often and unfortunately polarized into black and white. Petkeeping is indeed a moral and ethical issue: You yourself have noted that you "do not want to see anyone intentionaly torture any animal," and that is a moral statement (even if it _is_ just a fish)--you just happen to draw your line at a different place along the spectrum. And while you find it "ridiculous" to discuss and search for less painful means of euthanasia, a person who willingly flushes a fish down a toilet despite being well aware that there are less painful ways for a fish to meet its death is, in fact, willfully torturing that animal.

The purchasing of an animal for keeping as a pet should imply a moral binding: If you are going to willfully ignore well established principles for reducing pain and suffering for the companion animal while it is in your stead, you should not be buying it in the first place. I see no reason why pursuits to lessen pain and suffering in our pets should be deemed ridiculous. However, if that is your immutable stance, I'll say no more. But I couldn't let the flipside go unargued.

Respectfully,

2la

 
(Click for pics)


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I find it strange that some people feel it's ok to feed fish to fish but are upset over this issue.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

To draw us back to the topic at hand, I think the concern here is for the wanton depletion of wild fish populations. There are millions of captive bred fish that are purchased every year for the specific purpose of dying a most likely very painful death in the mouth of a much larger and hungrier fish. That seemingly moral issue is completely seperate from these concerns.
I still stand by the fact and support that Tetra took the initiative to encourage people to try this hobby. They don't even know if people are going to go out and buy Tetra products. Someone might see the show and go to their pet store and drop $200 on Hagen's products. Tetra took that chance and simply made the effort to enlarge this hobby and business.

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## imported_Davo (Apr 12, 2003)

Robert,

Well said. I think people should lighten up, we have more pressing issues at the moment, like world peace.

Dave.


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Well said, 2la, and I agree; this is not a black and white matter, such things never are. I feel obligated to point out, though, that I'm sure Robert was talking about fish that are already dead, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't flush a live one down the toilet. He's much too responsible a hobbyist to do that. Responsibility is exactly what this issue (or non-issue, as the case may be) is about, and it is, in fact, the responsibility of the hobbyist to educate him or herself in the proper setup, care and maintenance of aquarium fish. In a perfect world, such information would be volunteered by the people who sell such things, but this is not a perfect world, and there are plenty of resources available through which such education may be obtained. The lack of volunteered information does not excuse the hobbyist from his or her responsibility to find out what's necessary. Anything we as hobbyists can do to further that education is a huge plus, and forums like this, for the most part, serve a useful purpose in doing exactly that.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## Tenor1 (Mar 3, 2003)

One of the better LFS's in L.A. took down a micro-plant tank and converting it to a Nemo tank. They ARE responsible educators as well as retailers.

Several people approached them about setting up a "Nemo tank." When they heard the cost and invovlement nobody bought a tank. The LFS is where the education needs to take place. 

This is a similar issue to rabbits sold at Easter. The ultimate responsibility is with the parents. The initial cost is what stopped the parents from taking the plunge.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

What I was reffering to was the debate that comes up every so often about how to euthinize a fish. Some people say to freeze it while its still alive or whatever..thats what I think is ridiculous. If I had a sick deformed fish that could not recover, yes I probably would flush it down the toilet while it was still alive. I don't get all emotional when a fish dies. If a fish is sick, I do whatever I can to save the fish if it is possible and feesable because the fish may be unique, attractive, and expensive to replace, not because I would mourn its passing. I don't bury it, I don't give it a funeral. I go out and buy another fish.

the reason I bring this up is that people first starting out in the hobby often do the wrong thing at the wrong time and lose their fish in the process. People learn from their mistakes and progress in the hobby. But should they be held moraly accountable for this? Are they committing a great sin because their fish died?

When I had a Crawfish, I really enjoyed watching it tear apart a goldfish. I found it interesting to watch. Is that inhumane? Instead of flushing your sick fish down the tiolet, how about feeding it to a predator? Whats the difference? I used to keep snakes that ate small fish. I had fiddler crabs that would eat anything that they could catch. Do you think the fish that is being eaten alive and torn to peices is suffering? I don't think this attitude makes me unresposible. And I don't think new people to the hobby should be chastised for irresposible care or discouraged from learning by their mistakes. Thats all I am saying.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Thu June 19 2003 at 10:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by Robert H on Thu June 19 2003 at 11:00 AM.]


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

Well, I wasn't talking about a Viking funeral, Robert, all I meant was that NO aquarist should flush a live fish down the toilet, especially a non-native fish, which is primarily what we keep-just as plantkeepers should take care that non-native plant species are never introduced to local aquifers by flushing or being put down the drain.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## wetmanNY (Feb 1, 2003)

When the price of a Percula Clownfish comes up, a new calculation will swiftly result, viz.

Orange Fish = Goldfish + gaudy imitation coral.

Lots of people begin that way...

Where was the furore over "Little Mermaid?"


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## IZM (May 24, 2003)

There was a time when all the "common" freshwater fish species came from the wild also. While I agree that purchasing a pet implies some sort of responsibility, I also agree that a fish is a fish.

If this hobby had to rely on only "properly educated beginners" then there woud not be a hobby. I venture to say that even the most educated (aka experienced) person in this hobby has killed a fish or two (salt water or not) in their day.

Can't get mad at a 30 minute program for not mentioning every single detail.


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

petsmart near me actually makes you sign a responsibility form when buying an animal from them... i thought it was actually really stupid because i always try to take care of animals to the best of my ability. so that's a good step... not like they actually tell you what the hell they need to buy to take care of it... they just make you say "ya i'll be careful with it." even at LFS... some people know what they are doing, some don't. it's easy to point them out. lots of the workers are just kids and just sell whatever, so sometimes the education isn't even dished out at the LFS (in fact, at the place i used to work, a woman came in to buy a fish so i tried explaining to her what she needs to do and what her options are and the owner got mad that i spent time with her, not realizing that i was creating a long-time customer who had a definite interest) what bugs me specifically about the nemo thing was the fact that it's saltwater and thus most stuff comes from the sea. florida and hawaii have been closing areas of ocean left and right because they have been over fished. percula clowns specifically CAN be tank bred so... if people want to buy "nemo" and kill him, it's about the same as buying a goldfish and killing it. we just have the environment to worry about... since i worked in the saltwater section of my LFS a lot i got a slight glimpse of the difference between salt and freshwater and the big one is environmental damage. people are going to take animals out of nature... but the reefs are fragile and if we harvest them, it has to be slowly. that's my only beef with the idea of "everyone go out and buy a nemo." i also disagree with the thought of "hey, let's get as many people into a hobby as possible" because the faster people go into a hobby, the faster we raze the environment. everyone should be able to get in... but people should become educated first and at least TRY not to kill off more stuff than they have to. i mean, i don't care where you live in america... i bet you can find something locally that has been on a sharp decline, or something else that has been released into the wild and is causing damage. i'm not a huge environmentalist... actually i'm not a huge anything... but i do very much dislike it when people are needlessly wasteful without thinking. don't kill all the saltwater reefs by yourself! other people want to buy nemo too


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## 2la (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Robert H:
> Thats all I am saying.


And all _I'm_ saying is that if there are better alternatives to making a fish suffer, and you don't choose them, then you (or anybody) are being hypocritical by claiming that you don't want to see them tortured. Feeding a fish to another companion fish is not a comparable situation (is your toilet hungry? Is the toilet your companion animal?)--you are sacrificing the life of a food animal for the sustenance of a companion animal. This differs from euthanizing a companion animal in the same way that buying a rat as a pet and then deciding to drown it is different than buying a rat to feed to your pet python. As nebulous a concept as it is, intention matters greatly in such moral dealings; it is, for example, reflected in most aspects of our laws.

And to ridicule the thought of freezing a dying fish is to take the matter at its most superficial face value. While there is nothing proven on the matter, its hardly ridiculous to discuss the biology of dying and search for ways to make it less painful. I just don't see how that's a silly pursuit.



> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Robert H:
> ...not because I would mourn its passing. I don't bury it, I don't give it a funeral. I go out and buy another fish.


This reflects an attitude that I personally find distasteful, but I will leave it that I feel differently about the living beings I purposefully obtain to be my pets. With such power comes responsibility, but we clearly differ in our opinions of how far that responsibility goes. I also do not want to be painted in such an extreme light: I am not holding funerals or burials for fish, and I do not feel them to be my equal. But they are sentient beings that I will to the best of my ability avoid putting through purposeless pain and suffering.

Now, I've said my piece and will say no more. Like I said earlier, I just didn't want this thread to be so one-sided when I feel the opposite view is equally valid. I'll let this thread refocus on the original topic.

2la

PS I know it wasn't your point, but feeding a sick fish to a companion animal is not the wisest thing to do.









 
(Click for pics)


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well I guess I agree with you there Vicki! Although I don't think a fish would live in the sewer where there is no light and probably little oxygen, not to mention all the impurities. But I have never actually flushed a fish! I have never had a really sick fish. The only sickness that has ever been in my tanks was ICH a few years ago.

I am sorry if I sound cold and sadistic. I really do not think I am. I just do not consider fish as pets. And Tula, sorry, but I dont consider a crab or a crawfish a pet or "companion" animal either. Not in the true sense. I respect anyones beliefs and the whole Zen, Buddah thing, but I also respect nature and the natural order of life which is cruel and painfull!

I do love my little Krib family though...

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Fri June 20 2003 at 12:15 AM.]


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> saltwater fish are not expendible, for every 1000 fish that people "learn" with (and kill) another 1000 must be pulled from the ocean. with goldfish and neons, this isn't a problem.


Speaking of responsability and marine tanks, just thought this was interesting, because someone, anyone working in the industry would tell you for every 1000 fish you see in there store there are 9000 already dead. Of those 1000 that DO make it to the retalier, only 100 will live to see a year in captivity.

Any coral, well just about every piece of coral is CITES protected now, so every time someone kills a piece of coral, which is problably more often then one would assume, they are killing an endangered species.

That is why I no longer keep saltwater.


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## Sabrina (Jun 14, 2003)

I'm brand new on this forum, and I'm afraid I'm kind of concerned with the disregard you guys have for this issue.

"Dory", the blue hippo tang, is *not* a fish that can be bred in captivity, commercially or otherwise, I do believe. Many/most of these fish are wild-caught with *cyanide*, and that damages and kills reef life, as well as harming the fish pets-to-be. Tetra made *no* mention of this, and said that all these fish are *not* wild caught, they are *all* raised in captivity. I was appalled when I saw the segment. The occelaris clown *is* commonly tank-raised, but there are still plenty of 'Nemo's coming from our oceans, cyanide and all. Brittle star, ocean caught. Seahorses, ocean caught and captive bred both.

Most of the parents and kids that watched this will run to Petco to get their nemos. The few that make it to good LFSs will be steered in the right direction, but those that head to Petco and other chains will not. They will buy their mini-bow, fill it up, dump in some table salt, and watch their fish die. They'll go buy more fish and do it again. One more time, and it gets boring. Throw the tank away. Meanwhile, our reefs are slowly getting destroyed, and beyond repair. We can't bring them back once they're gone, folks. This is a delicate ecosystem we're dealing with. I do have a salt tank - but both of my fish are tank-raised.

Anyhow, here's the flaming segment, so you folks can see it with your own two eyes. And any of you that care about our oceans and reefs might just think for a while what kind of horrible impact this is having on our hobby.

http://www.dash4cash-racing.com/fish2.htm
Click on "TETRA SCREWS UP!"

And if you give a darn about it, check out the threads on www.reefcentral.com and send the appropriate emails, mails, etc. And for Pete's sake, DON'T support a company that advocates such lies, deception, and destruction!

-Sabrina


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Sabrina:
> I'm brand new on this forum, and I'm afraid I'm kind of concerned with the disregard you guys have for this issue.
> ...


Well, first of all I would caution that it isn't a disrgard for the issue, simply people looking at it from another angle.

If you want to take it a step further, I would say that after your description of how most saltwater specimens are captured perhaps it is irresposible for anyone to be keeping these animals. It doesn't really matter if you are the best reef keeper in the world or whether you are someone hoping to try a "Nemo" tank. If the reefs and animals contained within are being destroyed, maybe nobody should be supporting the hobby at all. In most cases these animals cannot be bred in captivity, so stocking a tank and keeping the tank stocked over the years just means more reef destruction will follow.

Dave


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

I must agree with Dave once again. If we were showing blatant disregard for this subject, would we have voiced our opinions at all?

I do feel strongly about this, but I also feel strongly about hobbyists who are quick to jump on any boycott that is suggested to them. Perhaps it is the power to cripple the big companies. Perhaps it is a subconscious desire to retain a hobby as too difficult for the mere masses to indulge in. Regardless of what the Fruedian motive might be, I think you guys need to take a serious look at why you are supporting this boycott.

That being said, I don't advocate the purchase of any wild-caught specimens at all. Unless the resource is replenishable (captive bred), then we have no business harvesting it. I've kept wild-caught specimens (corals and fish) and even though I was able to keep them alive for many years, something eventually went wrong, and they didn't live as long as they would have in the wild. I'm not going to make that mistake again.

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Sabrina:
> I'm brand new on this forum, and I'm afraid I'm kind of concerned with the disregard you guys have for this issue.


Sabrina,

I find your concerns misplaced. The salt water branch of the aquarium hobby -- those same people who seem to have fabricated the "issue" -- exploits a non-renewable resource and promotes destruction of the same environment that it exploits.

Your moral outrage has the distinctive aroma of hypocrisy.

Roger Miller


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by DaveStall:
> I would say that after your description of how most saltwater specimens are captured perhaps it is irresponsible for anyone to be keeping these animals. It doesn't really matter if you are the best reef keeper in the world or whether you are someone hoping to try a "Nemo" tank. If the reefs and animals contained within are being destroyed, maybe nobody should be supporting the hobby at all. In most cases these animals cannot be bred in captivity, so stocking a tank and keeping the tank stocked over the years just means more reef destruction will follow.
> ...


I totally agree with Dave, he said it perfectly!

*My Digital Gallery*


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> The salt water branch of the aquarium hobby -- those same people who seem to have fabricated the "issue" -- exploits a non-renewable resource and promotes destruction of the same environment that it exploits.
> Your moral outrage has the distinctive aroma of hypocrisy.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> The salt water branch of the aquarium hobby -- those same people who seem to have fabricated the "issue" -- exploits a non-renewable resource and promotes destruction of the same environment that it exploits.
> ...


Roger, very well said!

What's the difference between novice and expert, in the end both are purchasing marine fish from the same place, which became available by the same methods!

*My Digital Gallery*


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## Punchy (Apr 29, 2003)

My problem is that that by handing out misinformation, Tetra is NOT building a customer base for years to come, but just a jump on the band wagon and see what we can get now. Kids will clamor mom and dad, they'll got th the lfs
and the kids will be distrought when the fish die and decide they want a puppy instead. With good information to start, the fish have less chance of dying and the kids have more chance on learning responsiblitie and a hobby for years to come. Tetra is just hurting them self.
They are not looking to future sales of future hobbiest, just what can I get now.


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## musicsmaker (Jun 20, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


 No? I can. First of all this is very untrue. We PROTECT this reef that you say we exploit. We (most of us) propigate corals in our tanks, and we are active in the fight against cyanide catching practices.

So we have fabricated the issue, eh? More on that later.


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## Zurvan (Jun 7, 2003)

Has anyone considered the fact that maybe saltwater fish aren't being bred in captivity because it's not economically viable for companies to figure out HOW to do it?

I have no doubt it's hard, but so was breeding freshwater fish at first, I'm sure. But, there was enough of a market for freshwater fish for professionals to figure out how to breed them, and be able to make a living.

Maybe if these people go out, and buy some Nemo's, and take them home, some of them will die. Some people will learn why, and how to keep them alive. Others will just keep buying. The rest will give up. But, it will build the market. Which may promote more research in to captive breeding of marine fish.

Which is good for the environment, right?

People will learn how to look after their fish if that's what they want to do. If not, they'll get out of the hobby, and that's better.

But we should be encouraging new people to get fish, not discouraging them by tell them how hard it is, and how much work.


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## cwschoon (Jun 20, 2003)

I guess all the fresh water fish- keepers are going to Heaven and the reefers will burn in Hell. I keep both...what happens to me? Good points in this forum but I think it is a bit much calling salt water hobbiests hypocrites. That response sound a bit sanctimonius to me. I grew up in the West Indies and could tell a few stories about how some fresh water fish are "harvested". I was in the aquatic industry for 10 years or so and could tell some modern horror stories as well.
Give the reefers a break, they do have a point.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

Agreed. Every single captive bred fish we have now was once wild caught. Dedicated hobbyists took the time to figure out the needs of the fish and induce spawning and raising of the fry. Large companies didn't do this. For the most part it was hobbyists and aquatic research universities.

But the price of admission is too easy these days. You can get a Yellow Tang for $15, and there are many more where it came from, so this will go on and on. They should not ban wild collection altogether, but only limit it to research and those hobbyists willing to attempt to create an environment condusive to spawning.

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by musicsmaker:
> We PROTECT this reef that you say we exploit. We (most of us) propigate corals in our tanks, and we are active in the fight against cyanide catching practices


Some of you do -- or at least think they do -- but that isn't true of your hobby in general. A one-shot search on google for "endangered reef" pulled up a page that features a list of the 11 worst "hot spots." Destructive exploitation and over harvest for the aquarium trade are listed as a contributing factor for all of the top 4 sites.

The surest way to fix that problem -- the solution that puts you in an uncompromised stance -- is to stop maintaining aquariums with *any* reef species. Where there is no market, there is no damage.

Instead some outraged salt water aquarists have chosen to attack a manufacturer of food, supplies and equipment mostly for the freshwater aquarium trade. And why? Because some spokes person did a few minute blurb on how to set up an aquarium?

You have some issues that are a lot closer to home that need your attention.

Roger Miller


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## Punchy (Apr 29, 2003)

yES, But that 5 minute blurb, had inaccuarate information on setting up a salt water tank, Its just componding the problem by having people set up aquariums that they realy don't know what there doing and just endangering more fish for the whats hot now craze, They will bore soon and all that was learned was nothing. They same problem remains and more fish were killed and more reef destroyed then "normal" for a 2 month craze that will end. seriously... How many people will become dedicated hobbiest from this?


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## cwschoon (Jun 20, 2003)

Roger,you make valid points but things are getting better. People are aware of the problems. Truth is that collecting fish is the LEAST of the problems that our reefs face today - as sad a fact as that may be. Take bleaching of the reefs due to tempratures of the oceans rising. Are you going to stop doing anything that causes the greenhouse effect? What would fresh water hobbiests be saying if there was a big issue BEFORE captive breeding was so successful? My main point is that all of this sniping and finger pointing is doing NO ONE any good. I have been a loyal Tetra customer for a very long time and I happen to know that the company really, really does care about the industry, the hobby and the welfare of all fish and many other creatures, for that matter. Tetra made a mistake...an unfortunate one and I feel sorry for all that are involved but they are big boys and girls and I am confident that they will do what they can to mitigate what happened. Sorry, I digress.I resent being categorized as a reef/earth/fish killer.


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

Totally off topic.

cwschoon, good to see somebody else in the Atlanta area on this board.

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## cwschoon (Jun 20, 2003)

Maybe a bit off topic but I am sensitive to us salt water hobbiests being accused of destroying the earth. Sorry.


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## Heavydc2 (Jun 20, 2003)

Being a reef keeper it sucks to read what you think about us. Yes there is issues and there are many many people that are working at stoping the cyanide use. Many people in the community swap their corals with others to lessnin the impact we as a whole have on the reefs. Collection is not killing reefs, it is the whole human population.

I am supporting the ban of tetra, and Maybe you could watch this clip and see why we are all in a uproar. Any support is gladly accepted,
http://www.dash4cash-racing.com/fish2.htm

The facts:
5 gallon
no metion of ADDING salt (she did say saltwater tank)
she added the tetra conditioner then immediatly added 2 clowns, 1 (large) hippo, 1 brittle starfish, and seahorses (not sure how many). 
No mention of heater (there was one in the tank though).

If you don't think we have a right top be angry, then you should not be in the fish keeping hobby at all. What she said would mean doom for every fish that is started this way. If you don't care about those fish then why keep any at all?

Sorry to sound snippy but the comments made makes it sound like we are all bad people, and tetra can do no wrong, and thats not accurate or fair.


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## AngelSil (Jun 20, 2003)

You know, even though the Tetra Rep *did* (more or less) correctly sum up how to start a freshwater tank, she still put WAY too much bioload in the tank and didn't address heating, stocking considerations, and many other issues that face hobbyists. Fresh or Salt really isn't the whole issue; If that had been a medium size Oscar, 2 tetras and some snails that STILL would have been dooming those fish to death in a 5 gallon.

Sure, she said 1" per gallon - but look at how many inches of aquatic life she put in a 5 gallon tank. Yes, people make this mistake all the time. However, the novice watching that show is going to take the Tetra Rep as an 'expert' and have completely the wrong impression of how many fish can go in a tank. I feel that someone who goes on TV as a representative of their field has the responsibility to provide correct information.

I support the boycott, but I'm not unreasonable. I would be happy if Tetra put a blurb on their webpage acknowledging that some information was unintentionally left out and pointed people in the right direction on how to setup a 'Nemo' tank.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Do you guys not realize that the tetra rep. only had a few minutes to briefly explain how to set up a tank???
She did say salt water tank, it would take much to long to explain what was added to make it that way, same with the temp., she did not mention it but there was a heater in the tank, same goes for everything left out.... she only had a few minutes!!!

*My Digital Gallery*


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## captain (May 12, 2006)

I saw the clip and the Tetra rep is just that a rep and doesn't seem to be a hobbiest. Especially when she said, "...artificial plants are a little bit easier to care for..." Well, I think so too. (She says this at about 1:30 min into the clip)

-Steve
See profile for tank info


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## Punchy (Apr 29, 2003)

Sum up how to do a fresh water tank, using salt water fish? As any of us know the stocking requirements for a salt tank are less then a fresh. You cannot explain about fresh water tanks and then show using salt, there apples and oranges and confuses the people with erounous information.


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## DaveStall (Feb 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by cwschoon:
> Maybe a bit off topic but I am sensitive to us salt water hobbiests being accused of destroying the earth. Sorry.


I think perhaps we all should just take a deep breath and realize what is and is not being said here. I don't think it is the intent of any person here to characterize reefkeepers as destroyers of the earth or any such nonsense. I think the point that people are trying to make is that if this is grounds for boycotting a company (one that has probably done more to advance the aquarium hobby than any other), then we had better be prepared to take a look a little deeper. The reasoning here seems to be that fish are going to be harmed (and I agree .. in such a setup they certainly will) and that is enough to justify the boycott. If that is true, then the points brought up about the collection practices are valid. Many of those same valid points can be made about the freshwater hobby as well. There are terrible pratices in all areas of the hobby that are convenient to overlook. The silly arguing going on about whether someone is a freshwater or saltwater hobbiest is just pointless. Nobody is suggesting that this Tetra spokesperson did an accurate (or even adequate) job in explaining what it takes to setup ANY aquarium (fresh/salt/reef or other). To me, the boycott seems extreme. The Tetra person was given five minutes to explain something that would take hours to do justice to. Any presentation would have been seen as inadequate to a veteran hobbiest most likely. Regardless, it has spawned some interesting debate and given both sides a much different perspective on their own hobby.

On a side note, how many of these setups do we really think are going to become a reality? I bet that once the parents see how much it costs to actually setup and stock such a small aquarium, they are either going to forget about the entire thing or opt for the goldfish instead.

Side note number two:

That wasn't a correct summing up of how to stock a freshwater tank either. The "one inch per gallon" rule is an antiquated rule of thumb that isn't any more accurate for freshwater tanks than it is for a reef.

Dave


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## sid (Jun 20, 2003)

there are 2 things that being said on this board, these are that Tetra is a responsible company and in that short time you couldn't include everything you need to know to set up a marine tank.

The truth is that you cant explain to a complete stranger to the hobby how to setup a marine tank in five minutes and the fact that Tetra actually put on that show in the short time slot is one of the things that proves that Tetra is irresponsible and that they don't have any problems with thousands of fish dying due to lack of understanding by the customers, if they did they wouldn't have done the show in the first place, why a freshwater company tried to setup a marine tank is beyond me anyway.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

To their credit, Tetra didn't claim that their broadcast was a comprehensive guide to setting up a saltwater tank. To their reproach, they should have at least offered a word of caution that the care of a marine tank is a lot more extensive than had been outlined in that broadcast.

How dare a freshie company even think about setting up a saltwater tank, though. Who do they think they are?

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## skilos1 (Jun 20, 2003)

ok so they didn't have enough time, but still that is no excuse to not offer a good resource for people who are interested in to pick up. There are plenty of books and website's out in the world today that they could have brought up and presented to the public. Even if you setup a freshwater tank, planted or just fish you should read a book and research your choice. it would take 5 seconds to mention this and it was not done.

[This message was edited by skilos1 on Fri June 20 2003 at 11:14 AM.]


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

I agree. At the very least, if sales were their primary motive, try and plug the sales of some of their books and guides for keeping aquaria. Now that I've finally seen the clip, they definitely did oversimplify the care of a marine tank.
They did mention acclimation, but then they didn't acclimate the fish to the tank. They simply spilled them in from a bowl. Actions speak louder than words, so unfortunately most people will just spill their fish right in, instead of acclimating them properly.

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> At the very least, if sales were their primary motive, try and plug the sales of some of their books and guides for keeping aquaria


The program may not have allowed Tetra to do product promotions unless they paid a large promotional fee.

Roger Miller


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## Sabrina (Jun 14, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> I find your concerns misplaced. The salt water branch of the aquarium hobby -- those same people who seem to have fabricated the "issue" -- exploits a non-renewable resource and promotes destruction of the same environment that it exploits.
> ...


Maybe you didn't read my whole post. If you had, you'd have seen that my only two fish in my properly stocked tank are both captive bred. I might add that my only corals were locally propogated and given/sold to my by other hobbyists who propogated them. I use synthetic sea salt.

As far as the captive bred/wild caught issue goes, I'm torn. I won't keep wild ocean fish simply because it causes too many moral dilemmas to me, but there are organizations that are trying to promote net catching of fish, and this I do support. The more net-caught fish, the less cyanide-caught fish, and less damage to the reefs.

This whole Tetra issue is just one battle in the war of stopping the use of cyanide to catch fish, and I am therefore passionate about it. But what the Tetra issue all boils down to, folks, is that a huge company that we all know and likely have all purchased from, went on live television and *lied* to people. They lied about the origin of the fish they put into that tank. They lied about how easy it is to have a nemo tank in your home. They misled people who are probably right now dooming fish in their own home. This is a company that you want to support? Then fine. Go ahead and support them. I have morals. I won't support them.


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## Sabrina (Jun 14, 2003)

So anyhow, I've said my piece. My real love in the hobby is my planted aquarium, and I had hoped to join in discussions that this forum is more geared to. Starting to wonder if I really want to at this point.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Feb 3, 2003)

Sabrina, if planted tanks are your passion, then we'd love to have you around. I think I could easily speak for the rest of us that none of us actually support the misinformation that the Tetra representative handed out. I'm sure Tetra will deal with the situation as soon as they are aware of it. 
I don't support a boycott, either, though. If I am going to boycott anyone, it would be The Early Show for not offering enough time to explain the complexity of the marine (and general aquatic) hobby. 
Stick around!

-Sam P, BSME
My Website


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## Punchy (Apr 29, 2003)

I'm sure Tetra will deal with the situation as soon as they are aware of it.

HMMMM. Its been a week and I've heard nothing from them, Do you think, they believe the best tactic is to ignor and it will go away?


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## Jennifer (Jun 20, 2003)

I have seen the video clip and I shudder to think what the rep was about to say about keeping piranha. She dumped two clowns, a tang, two seahorses, and a brittle star into that tiny tank. I do not have a salt tank myself, but I belong to a different board with both fresh and salt forums. From reading them I know for a fact that that tang is going to have those seahorses for lunch. It's bad enough to throw possibly tank-raised clowns in there but to toss in a couple of seahorses for good measure just stinks! Sure,they're cute, but _very_ difficult to care for and they'd never survive those conditions. Of course, none of them will.
Yes, she only had five minutes to explain. However, the people going on that show know in advance how long their slot is. If Tetra thinks it's okay to explain marine aquarium keeping in five lousy minutes, I don't think I want their products unless/until they fix it. I didn't hear any disclaimer or any 'for more information, go here or order this book.' 
Someone posted something along the lines of 'the LFS will point the people coming in for 5g Nemo tanks in the right direction.' I'll have to disagree with that. Most, not all, LFSs want the quick, easy money. They'll send those kids home with the $50 starter kit, a bag of salt (hopefully sea salt) and at least two fish.



> quote:
> 
> I find your concerns misplaced. The salt water branch of the aquarium hobby -- those same people who seem to have fabricated the "issue" -- exploits a non-renewable resource and promotes destruction of the same environment that it exploits.


Mr. Miller, this "issue" has not been fabricated. Did you watch the clip? Do you work for Tetra or something?

Jen


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Maybe you didn't read my whole post. If you had, you'd have seen that my only two fish in my properly stocked tank are both captive bred.


Sabrina, I made a poor choice in quoting your letter to start my rant. You do appear to be one of the minority in the marine hobby who acts on concerns about the hobby's effect.

The problem lies in your association with the hobby, which must be one of the most environmentally damaging hobbies around. The fishermen and coral collectors are right up there with the 19th century buffalo hunters who's unsustainable harvest brought the American Bison to the verge of extinction, shattered the prairie ecosystem and wiped out entire cultures.

No, freshwater aquarium keeping is not free of abuses. But only a small fraction of the fish kept in the freshwater hobby are wild-caught. Some tropical countries regard wild-caught freshwater fish as a sustainable resource with cultural and environmental consequences that are far better than any likely alternative.

It would be great to see the marine hobby move toward captive breeding and sustainable harvest. Sadly, I had this same exchange 8 years ago with Dustin Lawrence. Eight years ago we talked about the same problems, the same consequences the same proposed solutions. The problems have not been solved, the consequences have grown and the solutions have not stemmed the destruction.

There is probably no field of the international live animal trade that bears close examination. Regardless of whether you're talking about fresh water fish, saltwater fish or wild tasmanian pygmy gophers the reality is the same. Animals are caught though inhumane methods, shipped under inhumane conditions, stored and starved. They die by the thousands -- by the tens of thousands. Any keeper of wild-caught animals who understands their hobby has two reasonable choices; they can accept the conditions they create or they can find a pastime that doesn't involve such a huge waste of life.

Tetra's promotional blunder is such an insignificant factor in the whole picture that I am amazed that anyone who understands the hobby and accepts the consequences could ever work up such indignation.



> quote:
> 
> This whole Tetra issue is just one battle in the war of stopping the use of cyanide to catch fish, and I am therefore passionate about it.


You lost me on this one. Certainly you could find more direct links to the cyanide problem.



> quote:
> 
> But what the Tetra issue all boils down to, folks, is that a huge company that we all know and likely have all purchased from, went on live television and *lied* to people. They lied about the origin of the fish they put into that tank. They lied about how easy it is to have a nemo tank in your home. They misled people who are probably right now dooming fish in their own home. This is a company that you want to support? Then fine. Go ahead and support them. I have morals. I won't support them.


After work today I stopped by my LFS. I tracked down their fishroom manager and asked if they were having a lot of people coming in who wanted to set up "Nemo" tanks. He had never heard the term, so I explained. To my surprise, he said "yeah, a ridiculous number of them." Then I asked if he heard anything about the Tetra demonstration. He had not.

He took me to the marine manager and we asked the same questions. The marine manager had the same reaction. He hadn't heard about the Tetra demo. No-one had ever mentioned it. He laughed off the whole thing. Apparently such misguided televised demonstrations are so common that it wasn't worth more than a chuckle.

Yes, Tetra made a mistake, but you can't blame Tetra for every aquarium keeping fiasco, or even every "Nemo" tank. Boycotting Tetra seems like a pointless act. There is nothing that Tetra can do that will change what they did. It's history -- insignificant history.

If you want to boycott something, why don't you try boycotting products from the Phillipines, or Indonesia, or Malaysia. Refuse to buy anything they export until their govenment institutes effective regulation and control on the collection of wild marine animals and corals. There would at least be some point to that boycott.

Roger Miller


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

So Roger, what do you say to Erik, Karen Randall and the others who went to the Amazon and collected wild fish and brought them back? There are a number of wild freshwater fish constantly available. Perhaps it doesn't have much of an impact on the Amazon. I know nothing about the marine/reef situation of collecting wild fish, how extensive it is or how much damage it is doing, but if it is as bad as you say I am really surprised conservation groups are not pushing legislation. It really goes way beyond the aquarium hobby if it is indeed that bad.

I am starting to be persuaded a little that Tetra did make a huge mistake, but it is still not something that I would be passionate about nor would I support a boycott. I also think the Reefers will have a hard time rallying much support outside their own hobby. The whole issue will probably soon be forgotten.

To the outside world we all look like a bunch of geeks anyway. I saw it written somewhere, the definition of a geek: someone who is into scfi and collects fish.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

I went by my LFS tonight on a plant trade run. I also asked how many people that came in wanting to set up a Nemo tank. There where three. The owner of the LFS told me after he explained how to set up and maintain a salt water tank, two decided not to and one got a small tank with guppies. From all I have read here I see there are a bunch of people that think no one is deserving of this hobby unless they get permission from a expert. Maybe there should be a test to see if beginners are dissevering of joining the elite in this hobby. I find it appalling that some people assume that every one else is to stupid to learn about setting up an aquarium, fresh or reef. That's all I have to say about this being stupid and backwards and all.

Hawk

Trust But Verify «*»®


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I see a lot of passionate people arguing over something that is personal opinion, and can never be agreed upon. I wish everyone was as passionate as you people here, but alas this is not the case.

Everyone CAN learn how to keep marine or fresh tanks sucessfully, but some people don't care to. I see them every day at work.

It's just as wrong to assume people are too dumb to learn as it is to assume everyone cares enough to learn.

I have refused to sell people fish, because they would have surely died, and the people buying them were wholy aware of that, and could not care less. I could not condem the fish to die, though, call me weak.

Would it be ok to kill 9000 people, to support research into a cure for cancer?

I am assuming no one would agree to this.

Why then would it be ok to kill 9000 fish so 1000 can hit a market where 90% of them are going to be dead within weeks? Less that 0.001% of those fish will ever be used for purposes other then ornamental.

So why is it ok to basically slaughter tens of thousands of fish so ONE person can have a fish for a year.

This may seem harsh, but comming from someone who works in the industry, it holds more weight then the opinion of the average consumer.

And to those justifying thier marine tanks based upon the fact they only keep captive bred stuff. Good on ya for trying to be a consious keeper, but this amounts to buying a slave, rather then catching your own. I am sure in 15 years people will look back in disgust at the marine hobby. On the captive bred issue, specially clowns, they have a horendous survival rate, lower then that of wild caughts. We usually bring in 50 captive breds at a time and around 40 die in the first few days. Personally I believe they are usually fed a certain food, thier whole life and refuse to eat anything other then that. Even if they slowly perish, they usually refuse all foods. Anyone with a wild caught clown will attest to the fact they are pigs and will gorge themselves on anything given the chance. But captive breds almost always wither and die quickly.

Most stores will bring in Sea horses, which are almost guaranteed to die without a specialized setup, or sponge eating angel fish, which will die without live sponge to eat, which almost no one will provide, or many types of cleaner wrasses which die without a sufficient population of large fish to host them, which almost no hobbiest has or sand sifting gobbys that require masses of well established sand to live, and watch them slowly perish, or VERY diffucult to feed banner fish like the moorish idol, which have a survival rate of less than 1 in 5000 from ocean to tank, or numerous species of pod eaters, which 90% of the people buying don;t have a food source for... I could go on alll day with examples, but hey now lets talk about corals. 

Wow you got a frag, from a coral that was propbly taken fresh off the reef, but hey it's captive, who cares if 100's of frags were broken off to get the one frag that made off the ocean floor, and of all those wasted pieces how many frags how many hundreds of years worth of growth were destroyed. 

The exploitation of coral is 5 times worse then that of fish. I get people asking for captive frags all the time, and when we get them in, and they see some wild caught heads beside them, for 3x the price, almost no one is willing to take 7 years to grow that itty bitty frag out to the size of the head. 

And these practices are not happening in some far away land, I have seen cubans kicking 1000 year old stands of branching hammer taking the pieces which happend to break off good enough to sell, and letting the rest die in the sand, in FLORIDA.

Hey you think that is bad, I have seen cubans taking well over 200 year old heads of acropora from the reef to dry on the beach to sell to ignorant tourists.

And you think all this is bad, wait till you see cyanide collection of fish, where they kill square yards of reef and 90% of the fish they dose..... but that is a whole other topic.

This is not always the way it goes, but it's bad enough for now.

But I am no saint, Yes I support deforestation, cause I dislike plastic toilet paper.

Just want to throw in my two cents to all those people who get tidbits here and there about what really goes on in the industry. Take it from an insider, there is WAY more to this industry, and that is what it is, an industry not a hobby, then the average hobbiest sees.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Robert H:
> So Roger, what do you say to Erik, Karen Randall and the others who went to the Amazon and collected wild fish and brought them back?


To the best of my knowledge, collection of fish by individual aquarists does not pose a threat to the Amazon.



> quote:
> 
> There are a number of wild freshwater fish constantly available. Perhaps it doesn't have much of an impact on the Amazon.


The Amazon basin is one area where the freshwater fishery for the aquarium hobby might be managed as a sustainable resource. Read into Project Piaba. Personally, I keep two species that are probably wild-caught fish; Otos and SAEs. Otos are fairly delicate fish. I expect that for each one I buy there were probably several hundred that died before I had the opportunity. Even after I buy them, probably half die within a couple months. The survivors live for years. I accept that as a consequence of my hobby. SAEs are more robust, but the consequences are the same.



> quote:
> 
> I know nothing about the marine/reef situation of collecting wild fish, how extensive it is or how much damage it is doing, but if it is as bad as you say I am really surprised conservation groups are not pushing legislation. It really goes way beyond the aquarium hobby if it is indeed that bad.


Coral reefs are an endangered environment. It *is* a global problem. They are strictly protected in the US and Australia. *All* stoney corals are listed in CITES Appendix II.

There are a lot of reason's why coral reefs are endangered and the damage done by fish and coral collectors isn't the most widespread or most prevalent cause of the problem. However, collection for the reef/marine fish hobby is part of the problem and in some local cases it *is* the problem.

The internet provides a lot of information about reefs and their problems. Starfish is one of many informative sites.



> quote:
> 
> I am starting to be persuaded a little that Tetra did make a huge mistake, but it is still not something that I would be passionate about nor would I support a boycott. I also think the Reefers will have a hard time rallying much support outside their own hobby. The whole issue will probably soon be forgotten.


I'm entirely convinced that Tetra made a mistake, but I don't have any reason to believe that Tetra has a policy of providing such rotten advice.

I'm also pretty sure that the whole episode was trivial. The marine manager's response at my LFS convinced me. Think back over all of the home marine tanks you have seen on movies or television. How many have been realistic? Everytime some garrish, impossible marine tank pops up in a television show or a movie there is someone watching who says "I want that." The marine manager even listed a number of "how to" shows he saw in places like "Animal Planet" that gave remarkably bad advice on setting up and maintaining marine tanks. Tetra's bungle might stand out a bit, but mostly because it's recent.

A boycott is pointless. There is no action that Tetra could take as a result of the boycott that would fix anything. In fact, the people who want to boycott Tetra aren't asking Tetra to do *anything*. They are just expressing their moral outrage.

I don't understand how anyone involved in this hobby can manage to work up much outrage over the Tetra demo. I like to apply a standard of consistent behavior when I ask whether someone's opinion is reasonable. In order for an aquarist to work up moral outrage over such a trivial event, consistent behavior requires that they go through life outraged; outraged at their own hobby, outraged at their fellow hobbyists, outraged at the stores they buy from and the manufacturers of equipment they use, outraged at movie produeers, outraged at tv show hosts and on and on.

I try to avoid people like that.

Roger Miller


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## musicsmaker (Jun 20, 2003)

I see a lot of saltwater - freshwater, my hobby is better, you destroy this and that. Can we all please stop that? It is nonsense. The only real difference in our tanks is the specific gravity of the water.

First of all, the people who post here and at RC aren't the people you make them out to be. We are the good guys.







You can find 2 types of people on my home board. Those that want to have good info, and those that wish to share good info.

For the most part, we are not only aware of the problems associated in our hobby, we actively combat them. See the netting fundraiser for instance. If you were to check out that thread, you would see that we have raised about 4 thousand dollars, mostly from hobbyists. There are people spending lots of time, literally dedicating their life, to teach the local people in the problem cyanide areas how to use nets. We figured why not give them some nets to use since they know how to use them now.

About the tank raised animals. You bet. There are problems associated with raising live food stuffs for many of the organisms we keep in our reefs. Many advances are being made, and new species are being bred all the time.

The big point is, that while there are people causing problems in the reefs for the ornamental trade, it is not us causing the problem. Us, who you seem to be pointing the finger at. Like I said before, we are the good guys. Actively combating the problem(s), forming organizations, and spreading the word.

The majority of hobbyists posting on the boards are growing _something_ in their tanks. Weather it be raising fish from a breeding pair, taking cuttings from a captive grown coral to trade or give to a newbie, or growing a macroalgae for nutrient export.

Being the people we are, we (someone) felt it appropriate to spread the word in your direction. The more people that here of the miss deeds (bad info on national TV, and a "we don't care" attitude in the FORM email response), the more people who will convey their feelings to the appropriate company/organization.

One last time, would you please try to remember "we are the good guys". Just as you want (I would imagine) to promote responsible aquatic etiquette, we are the same.


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## musicsmaker (Jun 20, 2003)

One more thing. I think that there is something you are missing. Yes, we do want something to come of this. Many of the people who are "outraged" want TETRA to come back on TV and make a full presentation. TETRA could defiantly afford to do so, but I for one would be happy enough if they pointed potential newbies in the direction of the online forums. Tell them (newbies) where to find me, and I'll handle all the specific info myself. I, along with over 30,000 members on my home board alone, are waiting with open arms.


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

fish caught in the amazon basin might be the only thing that can save amazonia...

if there is no economical value... it will be destroyed...

many amazon locals are trying to save their's forest, there are fish because of the forest...
destroy it and you will get no fish.

THE WORST thing against amazonia is all the human cultivated fish that bring all the prices to a low level, amazon economical value drops... and amazonia gets more endangered.

humans don't care about anything without economical value (in the "third" world countries), if reefs have some value they will get protected... otherwise they will get no protecttion at all..

for me this hobby is providing more protection to all the reefs out there...

of course there must be some measures to improve this protection..

in europe there is lots of measures against bad reef exploitation... and all the animals that came from the reefs must have some autorization (there must be fiscalization in there, and approvals...and no endangered corals)....

my closest LFS lost all the reef order of this month, when this order arrived in holland... all the corals and fish were encinerated...









Regards!
António Vitor

[This message was edited by António Vitor on Sat June 21 2003 at 01:21 PM.]


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Just to support what Antonio said: please, please support Project Piaba! Sustainable
harvest of freshwater fishes along the
Rio ***** tributary of the Amazon is helping
to preserve that stretch of rainforest
from deforestation by giving the natives
jobs. Natives then protect the rainforest to
keep those jobs so do not hesitate to purchase
wild caught cardinal tetras, costello tetras,
green neons, etc.

Just to not give people the wrong impression
that purchasing wild fish in general is a bad
idea. In this case, I would rather buy the
wild caught fish than the captive bred fish
of the same species.

Carlos

-------------------------
"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced." -- Van Gogh


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Musicmaker, thank you for your comments here and it is good to hear honest constructive comments. The big difference in how this conversation was handled in both our forums was here there were probably 50% of the people who agreed with your cause and 50% who did not. But here it was kept friendly and respectfull. On your forum people who did not agree were called trolls and ridiculed.

As far as I can tell, everyone here took my comments and Rogers comments and anyone elses in stride. Nobody took it personal, got ticked off and left in a huff, except Devgoddess. At least I hope that was the case.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't know how anyone else feels, but it seems this subject has been exhasted. If you feel strongly about this issue, then please do as what was suggested and write an email or mail a letter to Tetra. If you do not feel that way, then ignore the hype. If anyone really wants to continue this conversation, you can start another thread, but this one is now closed!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Sun June 22 2003 at 12:15 AM.]


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