# Heavly planted tank!



## Mr.Gator (Jun 1, 2009)

right now i only have a few plants and is still a beginner. But there was this question that always crossed my mind when i saw how beautiful heavly planted tanks are.

How do they do water changes? 
At the moment i have a gravel base (<---which shouldnt be) with plants in it (jave fern/moss, water spirts.etc) and when i do water change i also suck up the poopie from the shrimps and fish.

But in the heavly planted tank where they ever have plants on the base of the tank...how do they clear all that poop out? or do they just change the water and thats all?

I'm very interested in having a planted tank with a soil base (or something for plants so they can grow and root better) but just a bit confused about the water change part


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## nokturnalkid (Feb 27, 2007)

Usually, to get all that stuff out, I just put the gravel cleaner as close to the substrate I possibly can. The detrius gets sucked out with no problem. Sometimes you just gotta scoot the plants around so you can stick the gc there easier. I also usually do a good gravel cleaning about once a month, sometimes more. Other than that, I do water changes by flipping a few ball valves. Got external pumps on my tanks so there's no problems hardplumbing a wc line. Another thing I wanted to try and do is make a gc with a smaller diameter pvc pipe so I can get into those knooks and crannies a bit easier, will do that when I get off my lazy a$$ one of these days.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Water change depends on method. For some people it's 50% a week or more, for others it's one every few months or longer. It's always been my opinion that people new to planted tanks should acquaint themselves with it through reading the various systems first. Forums are good for after, or along side, but be sure to get the formal info above all else.

As for the gravel vac thing, most just leave the detritus sit. Some can be suctioned or blown out (then taken up by the filter) if it gets too heavy on the surface. At most the top 1/4-1/2 inch might get a little stirring around while doing work; for me it's unintentional. From the perspective of a plant, fish waste is food. 

-Philosophos


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Mr.Gator said:


> right now i only have a few plants and is still a beginner. But there was this question that always crossed my mind when i saw how beautiful heavly planted tanks are.
> 
> How do they do water changes?
> At the moment i have a gravel base (<---which shouldnt be) with plants in it (jave fern/moss, water spirts.etc) and when i do water change i also suck up the poopie from the shrimps and fish.
> ...


They mostly just add water because it evaporates. The plants use the fish pee and poo just like plants above ground use manure. The fish give the plants carbon dioxide and the plants give the fish oxygen. When it's all working together, takes awhile, all you do is feed fish and add water. But any pond needs some fresh water running in sometime, so when you think it needs it you lightly vacuum near the bottom and put in clean water. It's real easy. To put it in English, you get Diana Walstad's book and if you want the hard way get a book on that other way. I don't know what you call it, the expensive science project way.


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## fishorama (Apr 18, 2009)

I do what nokturnalkid does, vacuum the surface. For me, some plants collect more "stuff" than others & you'll learn where to concentrate cleaning. Dense stem plants & java moss need more attention.

You can also try to position filter spray bars or powerhead (if using) to sweep detritus to the filter intake. I am less sucessful with this.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

fishorama said:


> I do what nokturnalkid does, vacuum the surface. For me, some plants collect more "stuff" than others & you'll learn where to concentrate cleaning. Dense stem plants & java moss need more attention.
> 
> You can also try to position filter spray bars or powerhead (if using) to sweep detritus to the filter intake. I am less sucessful with this.


So you're saying the plastic plants I quit using real quick because all they did was collect filth do the same thing when they're the real plant? GOSH! I couldn't even get myself to plant any of those real ones that I had such a lousy time with the fake ones. Ya know, I think I knew alot of the plants already come to think of it, when you put it that way. I don't have any real plants that collect stuff
at all. YEEHAH!

Detritus? Where do you have any of that except on those plants that catch stuff? 
I don't understand what you mean. If you blew a powerhead at java moss wouldn't you end up with that mess all over the place? How would you get a powerhead down that low? Filter spray bars, you sure you should be using them? I had a couple of those Cascades and they were too much. I'm all for currents, but gentle and staying at the top. You could end up taking off too much carbon dioxide. I took my java moss out, java lace tied to a lava rock scupture would be alot nicer. I had java moss clogging up all my filters.

I have a powerhead on top of a UGF plastic tube with a hydro sponge filter down at the bottom. That works great. When it squishes in I know I need to rinse it out. I have the powerhead turned down some, wide open would be too strong. I have a Whisper power filter with a micron 100 pad I sew together for the back slot and a cell pore insert instead of the sponge in the front. You can get cell pore media at drsfostersmith.com. It's the greatest stuff ever. Cleans water like pots in India is my way of saying it. I turn the flow down on that too. I have so many fish in this tank, 37 gallons. I ended up putting a Fluval 305 canister I had on it with it packed with filter floss. I also turn the flow down on that. But the 3 things give alot of very gentle current on the top all around and it's super clean and clear. I know when the plants grow big I might not need all those things but I planted so I wouldn't end up with a jungle either. My ottos are spawning like crazy, it must be good in there.

Those plants you thought you needed in the beginning, maybe you don't need them anymore and can put something not such a mess in their place. Something awesome like that crispy crypt. And get rid of that spray bar.


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## fishorama (Apr 18, 2009)

Well, I'm definately a low techy so I don't have off gassing issues. Power heads can go sideways or upside down. And most of my fish like some current. 
I'm still a fish first keeper but like the OP said, even shrimp poo a bit. That's probably my most detritusy tank LOL.

My indica seems almost like a prefilter & blyxa catches quite a bit too. I agree java moss is a pita, I've had it off & on for that reason. Fry & shrimp sure like though. Nothing like plastic for poo trapping.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Keeping detritus controlled is also a matter of good filtration as much as anything. I try to keep a high flow rate where I can, soon I'll be using a submerged power head to both deliver CO2, and target some of the low flow areas. I think as plant density reaches the higher ends, distribution of everything becomes a real issue; light, flow, nutrients, CO2 etc.

Water change frequency also has little to do with high or low tech. A PPS pro tank can be high tech with very infrequent changes. On the other hand, EI is compatible with near no tech. Confusingly enough, nearly no tech in the tank its self can be done, but thousands spent on test kits to tweak the parameters and keep it all stable. I think perhaps some people confuse "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" for having the title, "The First and Only Way to Keep a NPT" This is not the case. Theories vary, and I doubt if the creator of one method begrudges another for a varying opinion. Theories are a matter of science after all, not the Spanish inquisition.

What you will find right now is that the majority of high end show tanks are at least mid, if not high tech. CO2 is a must for higher level competition, even if it's DIY aided with excel. This allows for growth rates and densities that aren't seen a whole lot in lower tech tanks. The real fight with stunning tanks in general is distribution; distribution of light, water movement, nutrients, temperature, etc.

-Philosophos


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

fishorama said:


> Well, I'm definately a low techy so I don't have off gassing issues. Power heads can go sideways or upside down. And most of my fish like some current.
> I'm still a fish first keeper but like the OP said, even shrimp poo a bit. That's probably my most detritusy tank LOL.
> 
> My indica seems almost like a prefilter & blyxa catches quite a bit too. I agree java moss is a pita, I've had it off & on for that reason. Fry & shrimp sure like though. Nothing like plastic for poo trapping.


I think the short somewhat jungle of crypts I have center stage give fry a place to hide. The Fluval 305 is mostly for cleaning out the color WI topsoil puts in the water. I hate red tea water. And most of all I got these 3 large onion plants at Petco for about $2 a pc., darn things keep rising up even as they grow roots and letting soil into the water. They really trash my micron pads big time. But they look awesome with the tops flowing across the water. I ever plant them again I'll anchor them down with clay pot rings, I've gotten good at chiseling that stuff into caves and such.

I still don't know why you need flow at the bottom, I'm kinda thick headed. I feed pellets, wafers and tiny food down a lift tube into a small kidney shaped lizard dish, even the ottos eat out of it. I do that with all my tanks except for goldfish, they blunder around too much. With my big community tank I use a trough for birds pushed down in the gravel. Takes about 2 seconds for fish to figure it out. In that tank my panda cories have quadrupled, and I don't have any messy stuff in there for them to hide, if they're meant to they manage. There's a marimo ball in there but I think they hide inside parts of the resin things where fish can't get them. That's where they eventually show up, tiny little things. Pandas only get an inch long full grown. I don't know anything about shrimp but they look cool. I used to use grasshoppers for bait. That's about as close as I can come.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Walmart water lily bulb and long finned rosy barb.










Petsmart log with all kinds of hidy holes.










Crypt jungle, see dish and onion plant bringing up the dirt? Next to the Walmart driftwood tree.










One of these days I'm going to order from a place where I can get some crypt spiralis for behind that balsanae and next to the marble queen sword that's in the corner. See, that's what crispy crypt is, combine with apongeton crispy thing and I remember 2 plants. It's a dingbat thing.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

High flow rate is required along the bottom for high density planting; it helps to keep the detritus out of the leaves. Tanks with large leafed plants with low to mid density planting do not encounter this same problem. These tanks do not require higher light levels and better distribution to achieve 50mmol PAR for the undergrowth either, because there is no undergrowth. Incidentally, by the time you do achieve 50mmol PAR at the bottom of a H. micranthemoides patch sitting under some ludwigia, you've put in enough light that nutrients are being taken up faster than fish food will provide. This leads to a requirement for fertilizers and CO2 injection.

-Philosophos


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I have a heavily planted tank and do have a very few pockets that collect detritis. When I do my weekly water changes I try to hit those pockets. I don't have **** loaded up on top the gravel. I have lots of clean up crew that eat any left over food. I have lots of filtration and water movement that bring anything floating into the filter. 

You need water movement all over the entire tank, top, bottom, sides, and middle to move CO2 and nutrients to all the plants.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> I have a heavily planted tank and do have a very few pockets that collect detritis. When I do my weekly water changes I try to hit those pockets. I don't have **** loaded up on top the gravel. I have lots of clean up crew that eat any left over food. I have lots of filtration and water movement that bring anything floating into the filter.
> 
> You need water movement all over the entire tank, top, bottom, sides, and middle to move CO2 and nutrients to all the plants.


Not too many people know their tanks like you do, is my bet.

Noobie Alert, this lady is an artist of planted tanks, extremely advanced Creator of Underwater Gardens of Eden. She took her time learning it from the natural up to perfection.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Calcimoo said:


> Not too many people know their tanks like you do, is my bet.
> 
> Noobie Alert, this lady is an artist of planted tanks, extremely advanced Creator of Underwater Gardens of Eden. She took her time learning it from the natural up to perfection.


What high praise! Thank you! It's encouraging to see comments like this when I'm racking my brain with whatever my latest challenge might be. This hobby is never dull!


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## fireman5214 (Mar 4, 2009)

i do a weekly 1/3 water change and rinse out the filter a little bit. every 2 weeks ill do a replacement of the cartridge for the filter and a gravel cleaning, sometimes it doesnt need a gravel cleaning after 3 weeks


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## SkinniMini (Mar 26, 2006)

My approach is pretty low tech-I have one of the large gravy baster things & will use that to gently stir up the debris so I can catch it with the syphon hose.


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