# Cycling question



## vivalagourami (Nov 27, 2005)

Hello all,
I have a cycling question. (Tank specs are in sig., this is the 38G b.t.w) I've been trying to cycle the planted tank fishless.
In the last week or so, I've had a nitrite spike...from 0 to .50 ppm and back down to .25 ppm in the latter part of the week after one large and one small water change. The amonia tests have always read zero since I first set it up. 
Also, the nitrates are up as high as 40 ppm as of this morning. Until the nitrite spike, they had stayed steady at 10 ppm, with a touch of KNO3 ferted twice per week. 
My other ferts include: Po4 (twice per week...2-3 ppm), Flourish Trace (twice per week...the GH is 4 degrees) and 1-2 ML of Flourish Iron once per week. My CO2 seems good because my pH is 6.4 (7.0 out of the tap), which is a little low for my tastes because my KH is very low out of the tap, less than one degree. I raise it baking soda to about 2 degrees, but my pH still stays around 6.4 with the lights on. I do get swings at night...but I'm less worried about it right this second, because I have no fish in there to speak of yet, but I will probably be looking for help later  
Anyway, my question is about the cycling...because of the nitrite spike, can I assume my plants are cycling the tank to some degree? How can that be if the amonia has always read 0 ppm? Have the plants just been breaking it all down? I want to get my biological filtration built up, and I'm not above using cheap cycling fish and hoping they make it through. I'm using a canister and a HOB (on low with high water levels to minimize surface agitation.) I mean, the plants are growing great...with just the slightest touch of algae. I'm starting to chomp at the bit to stock this thing.
Also should I continue ferting the KNO3 even though the nitrates are 40 ppm or should I switch to straight K for a bit?
Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
This is the first time I've cycled a planted tank.
Thanks,
Christina


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

You can't cycle a plant-only aquarium for fish! You have 0 ammonia reading because you don't have anything in your aquarium that is producing ammonia. You need to put a couple of fish in there in order to cycle your tank. It is the only way to get your bacteria population up and stable. The bacteria break down fish waste; you can buy Biospira or something equivilent, but in less you have fish producing wastes, that bacteria will die off because they have nothing to feed on.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Do you mean you're doing the fishless cycle with the ammonia, or did you just add plants and water?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

There is a lot of confusion out there about how & why you need to 'cycle' a tank. The only goal is to prevent the buildup of ammonia since it kills fish (as all 6 year-olds with goldfish from the county fair know).

Two ways to deal with it:

1. Add ammonia (either from fish or directly) and wait for the appropriate bacteria to establish a large enough colony to convert it to nitrite, then to nitrate (which is better tolerated by the fish).

2. Use plants! A large plant mass will take up ammonia before the bacteria even get a chance at it. Plants are VERY good at this. You can add a FEW fish into any aquarium where plants are actively growing without relying on the bacteria to do a thing. I'm going out on a limb here, but you don't need to cycle well-planted aquariums. One or two scraggly-little plants doesn't count. 

In established aquariums ammonia probably disappears via both pathways. The plants and the fish both benefit either way. More fish = more need for bacteria to help out the plants. Just add more fish over time.

I'd recommend getting your KH up to at least 4 to protect yourself from pH crashes.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

What's a cycle? :biggrin: 

In a tank well planted from day one (and the addition of mulm) and with good lighting, CO2 and ferts I've never seen a cycle.

I wonder if your nitrite test kit is good?


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## vivalagourami (Nov 27, 2005)

He he...its a rotala and wisteria jungle. Weeds...both of them. 
take a look at http://www.itsnotmadcow.blogspot.com for pics if ya want!

Maybe the nitrite test kit is bad, but I used to run a baseline for the tap and for my other tank and both those looked normal.

I've been adding um..its not Biospira, forget the name but its the same sorta product...active bacteria, and I used some media from an established HOB filter. I guess it makes sense that the bacteria will die cuz they got nothing to feed on. I didn't realize that plants were so good at eating amonia. I guess I thought between a few snails and one or two dead leaves, I could build up an amonia eating bacteria colony. Maybe not.

I still don't get the .5 ppm of nitrite though. Is it possible to cultivate a nitrite eating bacteria colony without cultivating an amonia eating colony due to planting?

Ech, either way, its no big deal. I will have to add some fish...this is bringing me back to my other question and guciac_boy's comment...about raising my KH. I guess I can get over using fish for cycling...but killing them with pH crashes would be depressing.

My KH out of the tap is SOOO low. So hard to work with. I've been putting baking soda in it, and I was also suggested crushed coral to dissolve more carbonate, but that may jump my pH up to african tank levels. The pH is a lot steadier than it was because it was crashing pretty good at night when the plants weren't using the Co2. Well, like down to 6.2 maybe, never as low as 6.0 but at least a good .4 pH drop. I added an airstone that runs on a timer opposite the light. But basically, I can raise my KH to about 2 degrees and keep the pH stable in the sense that it always tests between 6.4 and 6.6. I would still like it more stable. Thanks for the responses everyone!

-Christina


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I add quite a bit of CO2 (25-30 ppm). My tap water KH is <1. I only run CO2 during the day (comes on & off with lights - can't afford 2 timers). I add 1 tsp baking soda / 10 gallons at WC time. I end up with KH of 4.0-4.5. My pH goes from 6.60 in the early morning to 6.50 at lights-out.

How much CO2 are you using? DIY with yeast or pressurized? I wouldn't worry about the nitrite. It was probably just an errant reading or maybe was an actual small spike. It went somewhere. Either way, it's time to add a few fish.

If your pH goes down to 6.2 you have a LOT of room to add more KH before you get anywhere near "African tank levels".

You can try coral, but you never know how much is dissolving. I find baking soda to be predictable, easy, and dirt cheap. If you think you need the calcium from the coral go with CaCl2 or with Seachem Equilibrium. If you worry about the sodium use finely powdered CaCO3. It just takes a few hours to dissolve so add it at night.


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## vivalagourami (Nov 27, 2005)

Ahhh...ok. I don't think I was adding enough CO3. I was using just one tsp for the tank at WC time. Makes sense...  Yeah, I dunno. The guy at the LFS freaked me out about coral in the canister, like, I'd wake up and my pH would be like 8.2. I guess that's just unreasonable. I'm kinda new to all this planted stuff. So bear with me.
I really don't add that much Co2, its DIY yeast bottles, but I'm planning on moving to pressurized (even tho I only got 2.5 WPG lighting now) for better consistency. Its like 12-18 ppm at the moment. Just enough for a touch of pearling. 
I could deal with .1 drop, I'm skiddish about a .4 drop in pH.
Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it
~Christina


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I dunno guys....I never heard of plants that thrive off of the ammonia from fish wates......I think that they absorb the nitrogen that they need after the nitrifying bacteria has broken the ammonia down. I strongly suggest that she gets a few fish to keep those bacteria alive! The rest of you sounds like you already have established aquariums; she doesn't. I wouln't recommend to rely on a newly planted tank as a source of "filtration."


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well Donald, not to be rude, but you should do a little research. I'm going off of what I've read in countless forums, other internet sites, and experience from my own tanks. Look at Tom Barr's EI site. You can also research this on this forum and the 'other' planted tank forums. Ammonia is actually THE preferred form of nitrogen for plants. If you ever get an ammonia reading greater than zero in a planted tank something is seriously wrong or you're hopelessly overstocked.

Check out these links:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm from Chuck Gadd

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/rr00388.htm from Diana Walstad

If you have a good mass of fast-growing stem plants in a well-lit, well-fertilized tank with good CO2 levels you'll have no problem at all adding a large fish load all at once. I've done it more than once. It's probably smarter to stock up gradually, but you can go way faster than with traditional 'cyling'. Planted tanks rule!


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Well, Guaiac, not to be rude back, but maybe you should check your sources!  Not trying to cause trouble here, but.......you called me out.

Actually, after researching the "Aquarium Plants Manual" by Ines Scheurmann, it states that plants take in nitrogen as AMMONIUM, not the ammonia, which is poisonous both to plants and fish (page 19). Furthermore, ammonium can only exist in slightly to very acidic water, but in hard water, it automatically becomes ammonia. So, indeed, the nitrifiying bacteria are needed to break down the ammonia into AMMONIUM, otherwise the plants can quit producing oxygen because they are becoming they are living in ammonia-poisoned environment. And then everything else dies.

I didn't say it.....Ines stated it in her book......check it out yourself.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

PS...I understand the confusion.....ammonia and ammonium are very easy to confuse together.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Nothing like a friendly Holiday debate to get your juices flowing, huh Guaiac? HA!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

You'll note that when you place ammonia in water it acts as a weak base and a small percentage of the molecules accept a hydrogen ion to become NH4+. You are correct, the exact proportion of molecules existing in each state is a function of the pH of the solution. In very acidic solutions more of the ammonia (NH3) is converted to NH4 since there are more "free" protons around. This is simple acid/base chemistry.

Now, here comes the good part. Plants take up ammonium, true. That leaves room for more ammonia to convert to ammonium. As long as ammonium is "going away" into the plants, more ammonia will be converted -- No bacteria necessary. I don't want someone reading this post being led to believe that the conversion of ammonia to ammonium is part of the nitrogen cycle - it isn't.

The chemical reaction:

NH3 + H <--> NH4

is driven to the right when the product (NH4+) is removed. Since this occurs without any enzyme, bacteria, or other catylist you can for all practical purposes use each term interchangably. Even at high pH values there is some ammonium around, just not as much. The plants take it up, effectively "soaking up" the ammonia.


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