# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Very Newbie with a question



## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Hello all,
I am new to the forum but a long time aquarist and aquatic gardening afficianado(sp). I have also long visisted the aqua botanic web site. The last couple of days I have been browsing the forum and was wondering if any of you diy-ers have any information on diy substrate heater cables or, reasonably priced ones. I have long sought the best answer to this problem and was wondering what the general consensus on this piece of hardware is. Thanks.

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Hello all,
I am new to the forum but a long time aquarist and aquatic gardening afficianado(sp). I have also long visisted the aqua botanic web site. The last couple of days I have been browsing the forum and was wondering if any of you diy-ers have any information on diy substrate heater cables or, reasonably priced ones. I have long sought the best answer to this problem and was wondering what the general consensus on this piece of hardware is. Thanks.

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

There can be big discussions either way.
What people can agree on is that; 
heater cables are expensive
AC cables are a lot more dangerous than DC
If they are helpful its only later in a tanks life (1-3) years down the road.

I have heater cables but have not plugged them in yet(tank is 6 months old). I got them on ebay under the rena-cal brand name. They are AC and cost ~$30 for 50w.

*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

P.S> WELCOME TO THE FORUMS









*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

james is smart... he invests a lot in his tank. if you can find them cheap like he did, no hurt in trying them out. i dont use them, i don't think many people have tried... but if you can find them cheap, then maybe not a bad idea to try... it is basically one of those mods you can do to your car to get another 7 horses out of it... just a little boost, nothing major really, so you'll have to weigh pros/cons for yourself.

JP

PS i like your signature... i have a habit of pulling plants out to work on the tank and forgetting that they can't stay out of the water for too long.







crispy!


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

James,
Thanks for the welcome. I did a search last night of previous posts on this topic and read a little of the previous discussions. I have also purchased a cheap set of cables from m3. I don't have them at hand so I am not sure on the AC/DC question. They are probably fairly dangerous at least from what I've read elswhere. I am very electrically challenged so, that doesn't help. I have also heard/read that the cables should be operated with a transformer?? or something to regulate the amount of energy flowing through them (again I'm showing my ignorance here). I've never actually used mine, just trying to get a sense of what y'all thought about the concept. Stays plenty warm here deep in the heart...clap, clap... of Texas! By the way, congrats on your show tank. It really looks great and you have made, IMO, great improvements each iteration. How long have you been at this? You seem to have a bit of plumbing know-how. What type of automated water-changing system do you have going? Thanks again for the replies, good to be here.
Jack

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

If you have the M3 cables then you have AC cables and then run straight off the household current with no transformer. There are lots of AC cables out there. Dupla makes a good set of 24VDC cables but are way more expensive.

A short in AC cables is unpleasant to say the least. If you use AC cables at the VERY MINIMUM make usre you have a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interpupter) on them. You can wire one easy ($10) or buy one built into an extension cable ($60).

The cables can help revive (supposedly) stale or depleted substrates using convection circulation.

In my opinion go ahead and put the cables in your substrate and worry about it in a year or two. If the substrate starts to go stale (anerobic), plug'em in and see if they work. To add them later would require and entire rebuild of the tank, in which case ehy not just stir up/replace the substrate?

As for the tank, Thank You. All compliments accepted gleefully








IN four days I will have my six month anniversary. I first put water in the tank (my first, no goldfish in my history) november 11th, 2002. You literally can see my whole career in the journal. Each iteration is a lesson learned (or about to be learned).

I got the DIY moderator as a result of that plumbing








I'm an engineer by training and a *******-rigger by upbringing. Add a little anal-retentive and I usually analze everything before I do it and try to come up with the best solution. It works sometimes, but not always.

Water changer is based on overflow tube going to a drain in the floor. Turn on the water and any overflow goes down the drain. Its called a dilution water change as opposed to drain-n-refill. A custom tank with bulkheads makes something like this really easy to do.

*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

James,
I see. That explains a lot about the flow of your system. I couldn't, for the life of me, figure how you could have an overflow standpipe with what I believe are two inlets to the filter system in the bottom of the tank. So, how does the water being added during a water change enter. The water here has a general hardness of approx. 13 and a good deal of this is phosphorous. I have been kicking around several ideas on automation for the last couple of years and am trying to gather as much information and as many different techniques, as possible. Would like to possibly pass water from the tap through a R/O or something to purify it, somewhat, before adding into the system. I have seen several links to your journal and pics of your tanks. Is there a page or a link to more detail on your water changing/filtration system?

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

This may explain it. If not I can post some better pics when I get home.
I have a 1/4" water line that I run into the hood with the light cables. Turn the vavle and the water starts flowing. 
When the water level reaches the top of the far left pipe it overflows into the pipe and out the drain. The drain goes through a hole in the floor and drains to the outside.

























*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

O.K.
Another basic plumbing question. How are your connections constructed to allow you to break things down for cleaning etc. but, maintaining a water-tight seal for security? I have long pondered diy filtration of various kinds primarily to put heaters, gfci, dosing, and others out of sight from the view of the tank. However, I'm not all that familiar with working with pvc (obviously). By the way, how long does it take for you to change your desired amount of water through the 1/4" tube? Thanks again for the help.

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

I can do a 25% water dilution by leaving the water running for one hour.

All hose connections go onto barbs and are secured with stainless steel hose clamps.
All barbs are cvonnected to the PVC using 3/4"NPT threads secured with teflon tape.
All PVC connections are either securly glued or threaded with teflon tape.

My maintenance/ break down points are the hoses and at threaded connections. CHeck out the construction journal and you can see where I've wired and hidden everything.

*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

James,







What are your thoughts on drilling tanks that have already been constructed. I have a 75 gallon that has been sitting in the attic for a couple of years. I would like to drill it and possibly run an overflow/sump. I am interested in the sump idea because of the convenience of having all the accessories hidden. I am also considering running another tank (37g) on the same system. However, I'm concerned about the CO2 loss from the overflow and because I've heard they can cause a good deal of gurgling noise. Any experience with the overflow/sump concept or tank drilling?









Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

1) tempered glass cannot be drilled.
2) The bits try and drill glass are too expensive to by.

If the tank is not tempered glass you could take it to the local glass house and have them drill it for a fee. Call first as they may not even do it or have the bit size that you are after.

I had my tank drilled by the builder. He charged me $50 to drill three holes during the construction.

I have heard good things about modern sumps, but I think it all comes down to the implementation. If the hoses/pipes are gurgling, then the hoses are too small or they need an air vent. THere are lots of ways to fix it.

In my case I have hidden most of the accesories by using cansiters from the bottom. THe drilling requirement is still there.

*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Ahhh yes...the air vent. I have heard of this on numerous occasions. This wouldn't be necessary on a standpipe-style overflow though, would it? I had heard that the water falling through the standpipe could produce this gurgling sound. But, your advice on the air vent may still apply as I have also considered drilling the overflow in the top corner of the rear of the tank opposite from the return. This elbow-shaped overflow might need the air vent. I am still concerned with the potential CO2 loss from the air-water mixed in the overflow. I don't have a sump purchased or built but, would like to put something together to hide the equipment and use for multiple tanks.

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## JamesHoftiezer (Feb 2, 2003)

The gugle will appear anywhere an airbubble gets trapped and tries to fights it way vertical. A small 1/4 airline pushed deeper inside the 1" hose/pipe of the fitting should take care of it, but ... (this is me guessing ... I run canisters







)

As long as the air/water interface is not turbulent, you won't loose too much CO2. Your overflow/sump has to be 'casual' when its on the surface. You can do almost anything you want under the water.

*James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )*


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

I know, I know, I should dig a little deeper and just buy a couple of cannisters. But, part of the fun for me (and for you too, judging from your journal) is learning new things and applying that knowledge in improving your aqua-keeping/scaping abilities. As such, I would like to try my hand at this diy plumbing and filtration. 
So, how would this 1/4" line be put in the overflow inlet? Is this to say, cut a hole in the inlet, above the water line and connect a 1/4" tube? If so, it's a little confusing as to the need for the tubing. Or, are you suggesting possibly running the tube down below the water level and into the overflow to allow some sort of a release for trapped air in the overflow? 
I guess I am a little hazy on the airline and I know this may not be something you're crazy about answering since you opted to avoid the situation all together. If you can clear this up at all, I would appreciate it greatly.

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## Zerj (May 1, 2003)

I also am just starting trying to put a planted tank together but I have had a 90 Gallon with a sump for some time. 

I never ran a 1/4" line to reduce air flow to my sump. However I did cut some holes in the flex tubing going into my sump just above the waterline in the sump tank. This prevented the air bubbles being forced all the way down to the bottom of the sump and floating back up again. If it is just noise reduction I have also heard that the 1" corregated tubing used for swimming pools can be quieter. 

I believe for a overflow driven sump you NEED to have some air in the line down to the sump. Basically this is caused because there some amout of overcapacity in the line going down to the sump. If there was no air in the line that would imply that the line is filled with water and thus flowing at its maximum capacity. So if your pump decides to push water back upto the tank a little faster in that case your overflow couldn't handle it and you would pump water all over the floor.

Canisters don't have this issue since it is a closed system and the flow to the tank and from the tank is matched perfectly. 


Zerj


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Zerj,
Thanks for the reply. On your sump, do you have an overflow? If so, what kind is it? I am not sure whether I want a standpipe, or an elbow shaped inlet. I don't have an overflow box with a store-bought sump. Does your system generate any noise?

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## Zerj (May 1, 2003)

I have an All Glass tank that was predrilled and has the corner overflow area. However the overflow kit from all glass kinda sucks especially at high flow rates it is really loud and can fail. I made a 'Durso' standpipe and after a little adjusting it works good cheaper too if I had bought it first. You can find this designhere

My sump is just an old 20 High Aquarium with a couple of plexiglass sheets siliconed in as baffles and a protein skimmer and in sump return pump. If I had had a 20 Long Aquarium that would have worked out better as there would have been more room to work on stuff but I didn't.

The system makes a little noise but I really don't mind as it isn't near my living room or bedroom. However I just helped a friend setup a tank with the same design and his is pretty quiet. There is no noise from the main tank and a little noise down below but he is pumping about 1100 GPH. The pump is very quiet but there is some splashing due to air being forced down into the sump. But he only set it up last week and is still tweeking it.

Zerj


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Thanks for the link. That's an interesting design. Again, leave it to the saltwater guys to lead the DIY way. I wonder if this "Durso" standpipe could be used without an overflow box. Maybe, fit an prefilter/strainer of some kind on the intake below water level? My tanks not even drilled yet so, I got bigger problems right now but, this is a definite possibilty. By the way, do you have any experience drilling tanks? I asked this elsewhere in another topic but, I'm trying to figure out if my old 75g is tempered glass or not. Don't know the manufacturer and it doesn't say anywhere on it that I can find.

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## Zerj (May 1, 2003)

Never drilled my own tank. I found a LFS that would drill them for me with no garuntees. 

As for tempered glass, this doesn't sound foolproof but I thought tempered glass was thinner. Thinner=Cheaper and why they use it in the first place. So you might be able to compare the thickness with some new glass. The easiest thing to do would be to buy an overflow box that hangs on the back of your tank but those run about a 100 bucks or so. 

Zerj


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## Jack11 (Mar 30, 2004)

Hey Zerj,
I wonder if the "Durso" type overflow would work without drilling the tank. I mean if the actual standpipe was located outside the tank and the elbow running to just below the water surface went over the side and into the water. Same design with the air hole etc. I don't know, seems like someone smarter than me would have done it already and posted on the site if it could work. Of course those designs were for in tank overflow boxes. I wonder?

Ah Hah! You're supposed to put the plants IN the water...


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## Zerj (May 1, 2003)

I don't think so for the siphon to be self starting the water level in the tank must be equal to the horizontal section in the durso standpipe. This would imply that the water level in your tank is just above the rim of your tank. If it doesn't start on it's own when the power goes out and comes back on you would be dead. 

I believe that most hang on the back overflows work by having a small resovior on the back of the tank which has one bulkhead at the bottom (where you insert your durso standpipe I have heard of this being done). The level of the standpipe would be above the level of a siphon tube that flows between the main tank and the overflow box. Therefore when the power goes out the water in the overflow box will still be higher than the siphon tube and you will not break the siphon and shouldn't have power outage issues.


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