# Sand As A Substrate Only



## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Okay, I have a spare 5 gallon tank lying around, so I decided I was going to go the root of the Low Maintenance non-C02 set up as per just for exprimentation purposes:
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

While Onyx Sand is pretty costly and available locally, Leonardite - Black Diamond Brand(as this is the one people who are trying this are using and so I don't want to try any other brand) is next to impossible to find locally. I found one person locally, but he stated that he likely was not carrying it and would have to check and get back to me, that was a week ago and he has not phoned back or returned my calls. I know a supplier in Toronto that sells it, but with shipping, it is gonna be pretty expensive.

Anyway, I went to a Local Fish Store to purchase some otos and spoke to a very knowledgeable staff person. We were discussing low maintenance non c02 tanks. She swore that she had set up a 5 gallon hex, just like mine with a biowheel(she did not remove it) and set up a planted tank using nothing more than 1 inch of Hagen Geosystem Substrate sand. She stated she started the tank with no mulm or peat bottom layer and she does not dose excel or inject C02. She stated that she was using a Compact Fluorescent bulb(12 hour straight photoperiod) from the dollar shop(I am guessing cool white) and was not dosing any ferts at all. She stated that her tank was over stocked, and the java fern, java moss, moneywort, and anubias were a lush green color and the java moss was going so fast that it was reaching the surface. She stated that she performed water changes once a month if that and her fish were all healthy. She stated that algae, mostly green dust algae was a problem, but she ignored it and the algae went away. Her advise to me was: let the tank find its own balance. She felt that people were too impatient and made the hobby more complicated than it needed to be. I am wondering if she does not speak the truth since my attempts to convert the same 5 gallon hex with biowheel with 30 watts compact fluorescent, DIY C02 injection, and excel dosing, still resulted in a disaster.

I have read that it is not a good idea to use sand only as a substrate. I would be curious to know other peoples' experiences using sand only with low maintenance tank setups.

Thanks


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## FernMan (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi There,

In reality there are almost unlimited methods to grow just about any plant.
Obviously some plants have specific requirements which involve the “way” in which they prefer to absorb nutrients. Since you are mentioning sand, I assume you are trying to set up an aquarium with plants that prefer to anchor their “feet”, the roots.

There are numerous writings on the nutrient subject and also some great commercial substrate analysis presented by several members. I send you a link of one that I found very helpful. But when all is said and done, just about any loamy sand will provide the plants “most” of the nutrients they will need, for a while. Once the limiting nutrient is exhausted you will need to supply these nutrients (fertilizers). But if you have some fish and obviously you will be feeding them (that’s a fertilizer in itself) then you should be fine. Also keep in mind, you didn’t mention nor the person who you were talking to might not know; what is the chemical analysis of the water she is using? It just might have the essential minerals that are contributing to her plants’ health. Some plants grow in just about anything. I had a wild forest of Vals. Growing non-stop in sand. The fish were my fertilizing source. Final word, experiment, experiment, and experiment some more. Take notes and keep the data. Try different plants and let everyone in the forum know what you did, what work and what did not.

Take care…


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## spypet (Jul 27, 2007)

don't listen to any LPS person. <1mm grain sand is an inferior planted tank substrate;
the reasons have been discussed a thousend times on this forum. just search around.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

FernMan said:


> Hi There,
> 
> In reality there are almost unlimited methods to grow just about any plant.
> Obviously some plants have specific requirements which involve the "way" in which they prefer to absorb nutrients. Since you are mentioning sand, I assume you are trying to set up an aquarium with plants that prefer to anchor their "feet", the roots.
> ...


Many thanks for the suggestions. The person in question, lives in the same city and uses the same tap water for her tank. And it is interesting that you mentioned that as I strongly believed that if I could find a person who successfully grew plants with the same tap water parameters as me, then it would shed some light on which plants I may have the best luck with. The high tech route for me is just proving more trouble and cost than I bargained for, so I have decided to shift gears and go the low tech low maintenance route. I am researching the subject as much as I can rather than blindly jumping into it.

I really need to hear about peoples' first hand experiences with sand as a substrate and experiment for myself and see the outcome, so I am all for experimentation. It seems people have shared having a lot of success with pool filter sand and tahitian moon sand. I have some tahitian moon sand laying around but am tempted to lean towards pool filter sand. What throws a wrench into all of this is that the person who had great success setting up a low tech non c02 tank with the same tap water as me was using Hagen's GeoSystem Sand for her substrate. So I am almosted tempted to go with that as I am hoping to replicate her success.

I know there are many who say sand only as a substrate should be avoided altogether. Yet, if sand only substrates are so bad, then what explains peoples' successes growing plants in sand only substrates. Even Tom Barr has endorsed the use of Onyx sand on a layer of mulm/peat as an ideal substrate for a low maintenance low c02 tank.

As stated I am planning to test this first on a small scale(5 gallon tank) as per Tom Barr's method, with the only exception that I will overlay a layer of peat, mulm(lol, the bioballs in my 40 gallon tank are due for a major cleaning and have more than enough mulm on them that I could strip), and Diamond Black Leonardite with a layer of Tahitian Moon Sand or Pool Filter Sand(I haven't decided which yet) instead of the onyx sand. The plants will be java ferns(tied to rock or driftwood), Anubias(tied to rock or driftwood), Cryptocoryne wendtii ''brown'' and maybe Sagittaria subulata as a filler.

Also, I have not set up such a tank at work as we will be relocating in about a year, so I figure this gives me some time to experiment at home and if successful, such a low tech non-c02 tank would be perfect for work given that I would not have to worry about being on top of weekly water changes or coming in to do water changes when I am on vacation.

Regards


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I use sand in all my tanks, but everyone with substrate rooting plants in has something underneath to help growth, such as soil, laterite, Tetra Complete or Flourite. If you're going to fertilise the water column though, some people do run inert substrates and so there's no reason, as far as I can see, that you wouldn't be able to do this with sand.

I've certainly had great success growing plants in very low tech set ups (med to low light, no CO2) with just laterite under sand and very spasmodic fertilising. My apistogramma tank is full of Cabomba piahuyensis among many others as proof! The only problem I have in all my tanks is BBA that refuses to go away, but that includes tanks with CO2 in as well so I'm slightly bemused by it!

Like Fernman says, experiment!


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

Tom's summary (I skimmed it) appears to fail to mention the importance of using some soil under a medium-fine gravel. Also, contrary to Tom;s summary: Walstad also does not contend that fish waste is adequate to fertilize your plants - it is a combination of fish waste, plant mulm and existing soil nutrients that fertilize the plants and ameliorate the need for injected CO2.

This is the trouble w/ trying to summarize a (very good) book in a few paragraphs... errors and misinterpretations happen in print, even if the author of the summary has a good understanding of the material. 

In short, for an El Natural or NPT, you want more than just sand (use soil, then very coarse sand or fine gravel).

PS - laterite+sand does not equal soil.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Squawkbert said:


> Tom's summary (I skimmed it) appears to fail to mention the importance of using some soil under a medium-fine gravel. Also, contrary to Tom;s summary: Walstad also does not contend that fish waste is adequate to fertilize your plants - it is a combination of fish waste, plant mulm and existing soil nutrients that fertilize the plants and ameliorate the need for injected CO2.
> 
> This is the trouble w/ trying to summarize a (very good) book in a few paragraphs... errors and misinterpretations happen in print, even if the author of the summary has a good understanding of the material.
> 
> ...


Okay, thanks for responding. That is most interesting.

Unless I am mistaken, Diana does not mention using very coarse or fine gravel over the soil, and I am not neccessarily implying that this may be a bad idea, but I wonder if there is a reason that Diana does not speak of it. I know that over time Hydrogen sulfide gas tends to build up where soil is used and I wonder if an overlayer of coarse sand would not make the problem worse by limiting circulation(just guessing here).

I know many people have had success with using topsoil or blackearth only and going the Natural Planted Tank Route, but I have also read horror stories of where using soil as a substrate caused more problems than it solved, so I am a little reluctant to go this route. Also, with using sand it becomes easier to pull stem plants and rescape without causing a major mess. With a soil substrate only, this could cause problems. I have some excellent top soil laying around and setting a NPT would not be a problem, I am just too fearful of the outcome.


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## FernMan (Jun 4, 2006)

Homer,

Not a problem... sounds like what you are refering to when using soil is the organic decomposition process. Yes that could be a problem in a tank where circulation and filtration is limited. One quick solution is, cook your soil at about 250-300F. That will burn off the organic material as well as any organic debri. Keep in mind that the plants will use the minerals in the soil, regardless. Earlier I mentioned loamy sand. That is sand with iron rich soil, like red clay. If you live in an area with red clay soil, you can mix the sand, with the soil and use it as a bottom layer, coarse sand is ideal, it allows faster circulation. You can top it with a couple of inches with thin sand, that'll keep the clay in place. Clay particles are very fine, reason you want to loosen it up using coarse sand. A great source of information on how to prepare layers of soil for your plants is by reading on bonsai soil preparation. The plants (trees) grow in a very small container, and require several layers of varying soil particle size. Have fun ! You never know till you take chances... the sulfide production should be minimized by "sterilizing" the soil as mentioned. Have fun...


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## tha_beeg (Feb 8, 2007)

good luck. there are several things that make sand a sub-par substrate. Over time sand tends to compact, so it might affectively stunt or kill your plants, eventually. take for instance, i have blyxa japonica in my 75 in several places. several are growing in plain aquasoil wonderfully. i have one though that has been encroached upon by sand because of sifting from my bottom feeders. this blyxa has been stunted and in the time all my other blyxas have shot out 5 and 6 shoots and grown huge while that one has maybe grown and inch. not saying your plants wont grow but it will be a challenge to upkeep the sand. laterite can be used as a planting medium underneath as well as several other substrates.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

FernMan said:


> Homer,
> 
> Not a problem... sounds like what you are refering to when using soil is the organic decomposition process. Yes that could be a problem in a tank where circulation and filtration is limited. One quick solution is, cook your soil at about 250-300F. That will burn off the organic material as well as any organic debri. Keep in mind that the plants will use the minerals in the soil, regardless. Earlier I mentioned loamy sand. That is sand with iron rich soil, like red clay. If you live in an area with red clay soil, you can mix the sand, with the soil and use it as a bottom layer, coarse sand is ideal, it allows faster circulation. You can top it with a couple of inches with thin sand, that'll keep the clay in place. Clay particles are very fine, reason you want to loosen it up using coarse sand. A great source of information on how to prepare layers of soil for your plants is by reading on bonsai soil preparation. The plants (trees) grow in a very small container, and require several layers of varying soil particle size. Have fun ! You never know till you take chances... the sulfide production should be minimized by "sterilizing" the soil as mentioned. Have fun...


Thanks for that great info. I also read that keeping malaysian trumpet snails in tanks with sand or soil will have prevent build up of hydrogen sulfide production. Poking through the sand, something you cannot do with soil is also supposed to prevent HS pockets. My only concern with snails, be it Malaysian Trumpet or mini ramshorn is that they multiply like cockroaches. One of my 10 gallons is over run with mini ramshorns and considering that I only have one oto in there that I feed very little if at all, it is a mystery as to why they are breeding so quickly. It has got to the point now where I am thinking of getting a Talking Cat Fish to reduce the snail population. My only other concern with sand is that it get shorten the life expectancy of an impeller. Tahitian Moon Sand is not supposed to be stir up as much and not likely to get sucked up into the impeller suction. I have more than enough Tahitian Moon Sand to fill a 30 gallon, so I am going to use that. Besides I really need to work on my aquascaping skills and what better way to start than to use a nice black sand that will show off the plant and fish colors.

I came across some excellent links about using sand as an aquarium substrate that others may find useful. 
http://www.fishinthe.net/html/section-viewarticle-50.html
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=71597
http://www.cyphos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13866
http://www.petshub.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-70034.html
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/videos/cleaning_sand.php *An excellent how to video on how to clean sand in an aquarium*


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

tha_beeg said:


> good luck. there are several things that make sand a sub-par substrate. Over time sand tends to compact, so it might affectively stunt or kill your plants, eventually. take for instance, i have blyxa japonica in my 75 in several places. several are growing in plain aquasoil wonderfully. i have one though that has been encroached upon by sand because of sifting from my bottom feeders. this blyxa has been stunted and in the time all my other blyxas have shot out 5 and 6 shoots and grown huge while that one has maybe grown and inch. not saying your plants wont grow but it will be a challenge to upkeep the sand. laterite can be used as a planting medium underneath as well as several other substrates.


I hear you.

But to be quite honest, my city is so limited in the types of plants, that there is no such thing as blyxas where I live even if I wanted to grow it. Most of the plants with the exception of Cryptocornes and perhaps a few low light stem plants, most(mainly anubias and java fern) will be tied to rock or driftwood and anchored loosely in the sand.


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## tha_beeg (Feb 8, 2007)

ok cool. i read that thats what you doing for the most part but i went on a rant there for a sec lol. the general idea for the tank sounds amazing and will probably look the part too. and as for the hydrogen sulfide pockets, i believe someone mentioned in a thread that bottom dwellers like cories will scrummage and disturb the sand enough to where you wont have to worry about those too much.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

tha_beeg said:


> ok cool. i read that thats what you doing for the most part but i went on a rant there for a sec lol. the general idea for the tank sounds amazing and will probably look the part too. and as for the hydrogen sulfide pockets, i believe someone mentioned in a thread that bottom dwellers like cories will scrummage and disturb the sand enough to where you wont have to worry about those too much.


Thanks for the input. Using cories to prevent HS pockets sounds like an excellent idea 

I am looking forward to experimenting with this. The Diamond Black Leonardite is on its way, I have some Tahitian Moon Sand on standby, and some biowheels in another tank that are chaulk full of mulm that I can remove and use in the bottom layer. I have some garden peat moss all ready for a thin bottom layer as well. The only thing that I need to order is a UV sterilizer(which I know I don't have to use but like to for the health of my fish) a Seachem Purigan filter insert to help minimize organic waste as I will not be doing too many water changes.

I am probably going to buy the plants locally eventhough I can get them for a fraction of the cost from on on-line supplier as my experience has been that locally purchased plants tend to fare better and acclimitize quicker. I think that it may have to due with the fact that they have been sitting in the same type of tap water in the store.

As for fish: I was looking at a couple of otos, peppered cory, rosy barb, a molly, and some amano shrimp if I can find them.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

"don't listen to any LPS person. <1mm grain sand is an inferior planted tank substrate;"

Rubbish. I've used sand for a decade. It works better than anything else I've tried.

Dorothy Reimer began using it in Ontario first, she was the insprieation that got Diana Walsted going. Other locals in Ontario learned from her and use only sand with tremendous success. As in they grow plants nobody else can.

If you explain to these people about florite and "ADA power-whatsit" they'll just giggle.

Here's a couple of pics of local sand-only tanks, each of which have been running for over a decade.
http://images.aquaria.net/tanks/rjs/tk-1/2004/Oct/



















The latter picture of a tank 24" tall. The plant is Crypt. cordata grabowski which if you look at "the" site about crypts you'll see it's said they cannot be cultiavted in captivity. (http://www.nationaalherbarium.nl/Cryptocoryne/Gallery/gra/gra.html)

Charlie Drew has has these plants growing in sand since 1953 so you'll pardon me if I don't believe it doesn't work. It just runs counter to the experience I've had and the experience of so many other people who swear by, not at it.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

rs79 said:


> "don't listen to any LPS person. <1mm grain sand is an inferior planted tank substrate;"
> 
> Rubbish. I've used sand for a decade. It works better than anything else I've tried.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for sharing that rs79 that is truly amazing! especially considering that heavy root feeders that have deep burrowing roots can grow like that in sand only without root rot.

After Googling this subject to death, I am not totally convinced that sand only as a substrate is a bad idea or would not work. In my search, I came across several forums where highly experienced aquarists had been successfully using sand in their planted tanks. There was pretty much a consensus that Seachem Onyx Sand, Pool Filter Sand, Tahitian Moon Sand, and even Play Sand all worked really well with no adverse effects on plant growth.


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## JamesC (Jul 26, 2005)

Just to add, I've used sand for a few years now with great success. I use a large grain sand which here in the UK is sold as Quartz or Silica Sand. No root tabs or nothing in the substrate and no problems with anaerobic dead spots. Just use water column dosing. I have some pictures of my tank - http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk

James


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

JamesC said:


> Just to add, I've used sand for a few years now with great success. I use a large grain sand which here in the UK is sold as Quartz or Silica Sand. No root tabs or nothing in the substrate and no problems with anaerobic dead spots. Just use water column dosing. I have some pictures of my tank - http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk
> 
> James


Your tank is one of the best I have seen and truly inspirational. Now, if I can only find a local seller of Quartz or Silica Sand. Lol, this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.


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## JamesC (Jul 26, 2005)

The sand I have looks very similar to what's in this photo taken from Rex Grigg's website - http://www.rexgrigg.com/sand.jpg

Thanks for the compliments
James


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

JamesC said:


> ...Thanks for the compliments
> James


You are welcome and it is true and a crying shame. My 40 gallon looks like a dog's breakfast and is over run with algae. It feels like I am losing that ever elusive never ending battle to get the tank to find that "magical" balance. I made that classic newbie mistake of increasing my light intensity from 90 Watts to 110 Watts without coordinating it with pressurized C02 and appropriate ferts. When algae quickly began its hostile takeover of my tank, I began taking redemial action(I introduced 30ppm c02, reduced lighting, dosed with appropriate ferts, packed the tank with plants until there was room for no more plants and even added some floaters, began dosing with 2.5X excel), it was too little too late and things have just continued to go downhill. Everytime, I look at your tank, I just feel like crying. I think to myself man life is unfair and how I would kill to get my tank to even look half as good as James. :sad: Oh well, live and learn. If the tank does not recover in 6 months despite corrective action, I will likely tear the tank apart, start over, and go the Low Tech Non C02 tank with low light and low light plants. In fact, if I could do things all over again from day 1, I would have probably gone the low tech instead of high tech route. The plants in my tank were growing slowly with 90 watts but had no algae on them whatsoever and had I left the tank with 90 watts and increased plant mass with low light plants like crypts, java ferns, anubias, and tiger lotuses, I am sure that my tank would have had little if any algae and would have looked pretty decent desipite the slower plant growth. Waging war on algae due to an imbalance or imbalances that are likely to occur over the lifetime of a high tech tank, just takes the fun out of enjoying the hobby whether you win or lose the battle. God, you fight and defeat diatoms with otos, only to have string algae rear its ugly head, you fight off string algae only to be attacked by thread algae, you fend off the attack by thread algae, only to find yourself battling green dust and green spot algae, you defeat all the algae and figure you are in the clear. You start doing the happy dance to celebrate your victory, only to discover that while you were partying and celebrating, Blue Green Algae had silently and slowly visited your tank and was doing a smear job on your plants. Going throught the trouble of trying to maintain a balanced algae free beautiful high tech tank would only be worth my while if I were to participate in some aquascaping contest, which I never plan to do.

By the way, just as I thought, I phoned just about every local fish store in my city, reptile supplies store, and crafts store in my area and they don't carry quartz or silica sand.

Regards.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

"if I can only find a local seller of Quartz or Silica Sand."

Home Depot - "playbox sand". $4 for 50 pounds or something. I use that or sand collected from the wild (which you should sterilize by boiling)

Wash playbox sand very very well. Filter with carbon if you didn't rinse it enough, that will clear up any initial cloudiness.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

rs79 said:


> "if I can only find a local seller of Quartz or Silica Sand."
> 
> Home Depot - "playbox sand". $4 for 50 pounds or something. I use that or sand collected from the wild (which you should sterilize by boiling)
> 
> Wash playbox sand very very well. Filter with carbon if you didn't rinse it enough, that will clear up any initial cloudiness.


Thanks for that information.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Your tank is one of the best I have seen and truly inspirational. Now, if I can only find a local seller of Quartz or Silica Sand. Lol, this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.


Pool sand is silicia. I look at his picture and it looks like gravel on top.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> Pool sand is silicia. I look at his picture and it looks like gravel on top.


I have pool filter sand but it is only .45-.55MM. I am looking for something at least 1MM. I am thinking of trying that as a cap on a natural planted tank that I am setting up. I know Onyx sand has 1MM grains but given the cost of the sand, I am saving it for another project.

Traction sand seems to meet the 1MM+ size criteria that I am looking for in a cap over soil. Anyone, use Traction sand to try and grow plants or as a cap in a ELNatural type tank.

Thanks


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

"Pool sand is silicia"

ALL sand is silica.

Black "blasting sand" isn't really sand, it's slag from a steel mill. The stuff I bought smelled like hydrogen sulphide ("rotten eggs") out of the bag. I used it anyway and it was a disaster.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

I decided to go with traction sand as a cap for the Dwalstead experimental natural planted tank I am going to be setting up. I sieved it to get rid of the really coarse grains, leaving only 1-3MM sized grains. The whole debate about sand less than 1mm grain compacting and causing rot root will have to wait. I am not going to complicate this experiment by adding another variable that could cause it to fail. Traction sand is really River Sand and from what I have read, it is not known to cause problems. 
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....read/thread/63a1bf5a6610ffc6/61b7e8ce90f8dbe0
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/substrate-randall.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/basics-randall.html

Besides that, I am sick and tired of hunting for quartz sand with an appropriate grain size of 1-3MM. After checking on-line and phoning numerous places locally, it seems I am unable to locate anyone that carries it, so I have decided to give up searching. Pool Sand and Play Sand may be made out of silica but the grain size is way too small for my purposes.

The Tom Barr non c02 low maintenance experimental tank is going to have a cap of Seachem Onyx Sand over Leonardite, mulm, and peatmoss because that is what he recommends.

I forgot to mention, I will be testing up two low maintenance experimental tanks. Tom Barr Type and Diana Walstead Type.


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi rs79. Did I read your post correctly about the Sand Blasting Black grit?

I have been using Black Beauty for decades and have not had any problems. No odor, no nothing. I have a couple of tanks set up with it at the moment. One 75 for about a year and a 20H for at least 6months and all is good.

Sorry for jumping in like this but my experience is dramatically different. I am very interested in any substrate discussion. Walstads experience is very interesting and any new data adds to the whole body of this Hobby.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

One problem with using a substance as a substrate that wasn't manufactured to be used that way is that the properties that are important for a substrate are not important for the expected use, so they may change drastically from lot to lot. I think that is what happened with Soilmaster, that led to it depleting the hardness of the water. I used to use black blasting grit too, several years ago, and it worked fine, with no smell. But, the sharp granules did damage the mouths of corys, so I swore off using it in the future. If you are going to grit blast something it makes no difference if it has some hydrogen sulfide in it or not, nor would it matter if it had other substances we wouldn't want in our tank. I think that is the downside of using such substances.


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