# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Time to buy Water Conditioner.... any suggestions for El Natural?



## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Hi Folks,

its time to buy a water conditioner again. I was wondering what other El Natural folks used. I know Ms. Walstad recommends against using activated charcoal, especially if there are shrimp in the tank, as it would remove chealators that would bind up heavy metals. 

I've also read that EDTA can give some short-term protection against heavy metals, as might come in via a water change.

So - do the El Natural folks have any favorite water conditioners, and if so, why?

I currently am using up a bottle of Wardley's water conditioner, which was bought post-haste (it was all that was available) when I ran out of AmQuel. I also use half the recommended dose of Stress Coat in the incoming tap water, and try to let it sit overnight, especially for the invertebrate tanks. A friend tried Bio-Safe from Marineland labs, and she says it smells terrible! 

There is a DIZZYING array of these chemicals to choose from, so I'm looking for some input, as reading all the hype just gets me more confused. Brands I've seen include:

"Start Right"
"Aqua Plus"
"Ultimate Water Conditioner"
"Ammo Lock 2"
"Tap Water Conditioner" (Aquarium Pharmaseuticals)
"Bio-Safe" (Marineland Labs)
"AquaSafe" (Tetra)
"NovAqua" (Kordon)
"AmQuel" (Kordon)
"AmQuel +" (Kordon)

Basicaly my question is this - what ingredients are BEST for an El Natural Setup? Are there any ingredients I should avoid? (like things that might bind heavy metals temporarily, but release them easily with lots of DOC present, etc)

Obviously, I want something that neutralizes Chlorine, ChlorAmine and Heavy Metals. My local water has a good deal of tannins, but also is fairly hard, and is naturally a bit high in copper (a no-no for my shrimp tanks). 

Any guidance would be appreciated!
-Jane

PS - as El Natural, and doing few water changes, this TINY bottle of Grocery-Store Wardley's el cheapo conditioner has lasted an unexpected year-plus, but I've always been dubious in the back of my mind.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

I use Seachem Prime. Works fine for me (or so I think). It's super concentrated, so a bottle lasts a LONG time compared to other stuff (just to keep in mind for comparison purposes).

(Since you're my neighbor - I use the Cambridge water supply - medium to hard, not sure about its metal content - but my shrimps/inverts seem quite happy.)


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

Jane - this is an great topic - could you make it a poll on the forum?

It seems to me that all products use the same chemical to neutralize chlorine - sodium thiosulfate. But many products also claim to bind ammonia, heavy metals, etc. Not all products do these things the same way (formaldehydes, sulphur compounds, etc.). I always wonder what the biochemical ramifications of using one product over another are.


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## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> I use Seachem Prime. Works fine for me (or so I think). It's super concentrated, so a bottle lasts a LONG time compared to other stuff (just to keep in mind for comparison purposes).


Super concentrated is right; one (1) 100 ml bottle of Prime treats as much water as a 16 oz. bottle of many of the other brands. It removes the chlorine, chloramine and ammonia, and neutralizes nitrite, nitrate and heavy metals. Coming out of the bottle, it does have a strong sulfurous odor (which is normal for this product); however, I am unable to detect any odor once it has been added to water. IMO, I'd rather have the brief sulfurous odor than some of the other questionable ingredients like formaldehyde.

Several of the other water conditioners include buffers -- some based on phosphate buffer systems -- which I would probably stay away from. Phosphate buffer systems can make KH test results unreliable.

Some of these products contain electrolytes (salts) and novel additions such as vitamins, plant extracts and, in one case, a virus inhibitor. In my opinion, these are things best left out of water conditioners.

I don't think you can go wrong with Prime. One very nice feature of Prime is that you can use up to five times the normal dosage in case you ever run into a situation where you have to quickly neutralize a sudden build up of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.

Just my thoughts,
Dave


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

> Originally posted by Dave P:
> Coming out of the bottle, it does have a strong sulfurous odor (which is normal for this product); however, I am unable to detect any odor once it has been added to water.


Agreed. Don't know why people complain about it sometimes. Has no smell once in the aquarium. Odor is a non issue for this and similar products.


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

I use Prime as well, by far it has been the best that I have tried and it lasts forever!

Regards,
Erin


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

If your tap water contains lots of ammonia and you tend to do large partial water changes or large top offs, then Prime would be your best bet. The only drawback to conditioners that detox ammonia with hydrosulfites is they reduce oxygen saturation for several days after use.

If your tap water doesn't contain ammonia after it's dechlorinated or you do smaller water changes/additions then a conditioner with sodium thiosulfate would work fine.

I keep looking for a water conditioner with sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (for chloramines and ammonia detox) and something that chelates heavy metals with no luck. Most everyone thinks they need to put slime coat additives in their conditioners which I think is unnecessary... especially the ones with plant sap in them. It's one thing to rub aloe vera on a burn, and quite another to try and breath thru it.

The thing I've been mulling over lately is the heavy metal aspect. The pond folks usually buy dry sodium thiosulfate in bulk and don't worry about binding heavy metals. That creeps me out in a regular tank, however, in a natural planted tank, there are tannins/humic substances present that should take care of heavy metals, especially since partial water changes are few and far between. So it seems to me that a ST based conditioner without any other additives should be fine.

There a bunch of good info on water conditioners linked from my here in the section titled: Water Conditioners, chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, and nitrIte.


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

FWIW, in another (clearly) non-El Natural board I participate in, Prime is the overwhelming choice for water conditioner. Not that it applies here







....

From the other side,
Brian.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

> Originally posted by Betty:
> I keep looking for a water conditioner with sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (for chloramines and ammonia detox)


That's Amquel, right? You're just saying you want Amquel to have the metal detoxifiers in it? On their website they claim that they separate the two the keep give the products longer shelf life....

Also, is that compound proprietary/patented by Kordon/Novalek? i.e. I don't think other brands are allowed to use it.



> Originally posted by Erin C:
> I use Prime as well, by far it has been the best that I have tried and it lasts forever!


Besides lasting forever, any other reasons why you consider it to be the best - were other products hurting something in your aquarium, or it is just convenient since it's supposed do it all.



> Originally posted by BSS:
> FWIW, in another (clearly) non-El Natural board I participate in, Prime is the overwhelming choice for water conditioner.


Again, any idea why? I always wonder if one product becomes popular due to hard evidence or urban legend.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

In case it wasn't posted already, this link is a good summary of the product differences.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Wow, thanks for all the great responses!

Sure, this seems fair game for a Poll!

Its hard to find places online that list the ingredients of the conditioners, and as I'm still in the beginnings of the learning curve, it starts to blur together.

I know I definitely want to stay away from formaldehyde - it just binds non-selectively, so I imagine it could/would bind with things we don't want it binding with! I recall in the 70's there was a hair shampoo that claimed to stop "breakage", and one of my first memories of Reading Labels resulted in my shock to find it contained Formaldehyde! Eeeew, Pickle your Hair so it doesn't Break!

Anyhow, I'm off to read these threads/links. And Betty, your point makes sense - I've cut the Stress Coat to half after reading your similar comment elsewhere, and am really rethinking this for all but recently-netted fish. 

LG - Cambridge water tastes a bit different than my local water, I'll have to try and place it next time I have some. Mine unfortunately has a good deal of copper in it. 

There is SO much to learn! Betty, I think you commented similarly - who knew WATER could be so complicated?

Thanks!
-Jane


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Oh, and Betty - why are you seeking out something with Hydroxymethylsulfonate? Perhaps this will be answered by reading the linked threads, but is there something that is "better", especially for an El Natural tank?

Thanks! I'm off to read. 

Hey LG - that is a GREAT run-down chart of the various products!

Thanks!
-Jane

PW - are you going to the PVAS Auction Sunday?


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Here's another thought - 

use a water conditioner for Clorine/Chloramine, but get the heavy metals out with either Kent "Toxic Metal Sponge" or Seachem's "Cuprisorb". My question then becomes - use the water conditioner FIRST, and then hang a media bag of the heavy metal absorbing compound in the water, or reverse the two steps, adding the water conditioner second (ie, would the water conditioning complexes be absorbed by the heavy metal absorbers, thereby making the HM absorbing compound less effective?).

I know the plants are great "sinks" for heavy metals, but I worry about introducing any copper into the shrimp tanks.

Thanks!
-Jane


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## Avenolpey (Jun 28, 2005)

Just curious why folks don't use RO water. It requires nothing added to it for top offs, and products like "RO Right" for water changes. You can get 125 gallon per day RO units for around $69 dollars on ebay that work great. You don't end up having to deal with metals, phosphates etc...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I use Tetra's Aqua Safe. It works fine to take care of the zinc in my tapwater. Brine shrimp eggs won't hatch in freshly prepared seawater without it.

Remember that old aquarium water is safe in terms of heavy metals. Dissolved organics are nature's own metal chelators. They will protect your fish from heavy metals.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Jane: I use Prime cuz I have lots of ammonia in my tap water and I do large partial water changes in some of my tanks. No I don't think it's necessary for any tank unless you're doing large partial water changes and have source water that's loaded with ammonia. There's also a product called polyfilter that's supposed to suck up heavy metals. I would always dechlorinate first.

Avenolpey: With all my tanks, there's no way I'm paying for and lugging around RO water.

Aquasafe is kinda of in between conditioners like amquel/prime and the ST based conditioners. It handles chloramine and detoxes the ammonia released from the chloramine.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

You guys seem to be forgetting one. Aquarium Pharms Stress Coat. Replaces the fishes slime coat, promotes tissue regeneration, contains Aloe Vera, removes chlorine and neutralizes chloramines and detoxifies heavy metals.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Stress coat contains plant sap (aloe vera). I don't like putting anything in the water that isn't absolutely necessary. Putting plant sap in the water fish have to breath in is VERY different than rubbing it on a burn on your skin. Anything that can coat the gills is a bad thing in my opinion, because that's where you get gas exchange as well as regulation of fluid/electrolite balance. Fish been making their own slime for a very long time without the help of plant sap or other chemicals.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Yes, Robert, I'm currently using *some* Stress Coat with the Wardley's dechlorinator, because of its heavy-metal protection. I'm thinking to get something that is just the Chlorine/Chloramine conditioner, because of the concerns Betty raises. 

Copper is a real concern with my local water. I've toyed with the idea of RO, but am not up to committing to it (yet). When I did try to get the local water report, the person who could help me was not in that day (its a very small town). I need to follow up with that. 

When the woman I bought the condo from first moved in (I've known her since before SHE moved in, LOL!) I know she had a LOT of green staining issues (copper). A few years ago that problem subsided, but I still need to find out what the town is doing to have alleviated it. In late summer, I've noticed a bit of staining, especially if I go away for a week, and the water evaporates from the toilet, etc.

I know there is mention of EDTA in Ms. Walstad's book, so I'll go back and read ingredients, to see which products have it.

Interesting opinions, everyone! Thanks for all the input!
-Jane


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Since I have 11 tanks now and can get ST easily, I was looking for a source for EDTA. I did find some, but gave up on the idea cuz I'm not a chemist and didn't want to chance doing something stupid. I think the AP tap water conditioner just uses ST and something to chelate heavy metals.


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## Erin (Feb 18, 2005)

> Stress coat contains plant sap (aloe vera). I don't like putting anything in the water that isn't absolutely necessary. Putting plant sap in the water fish have to breath in is VERY different than rubbing it on a burn on your skin. Anything that can coat the gills is a bad thing in my opinion, because that's where you get gas exchange as well as regulation of fluid/electrolite balance. Fish been making their own slime for a very long time without the help of plant sap or other chemicals.
> 
> Betty


Well put, Betty!

I totally agree, which is why I like Prime.


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## kenbrady (Apr 9, 2005)

I used stress coat twice and some of the fish even died. Never again. I am/was a chemical technologist followed direction perfectly. I shuder at the thought especially considering it is not needed. It was a very costly free sample from my club.

Ken


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