# KH=0 using Aquasoil



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Hi,

Been using Aquasoil in my 120G and the KH reading is consistently 0 despite WC. Is this normal or desirable? The ph drops below 6 during photoperiod when the CO2 is on.

My other tanks have very high KH 6-10 using normal lapis/holland sand. The ph drops during co2 on. 7.6 to 6.4.

Regards

Stan


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

kH of 0 is not good. kH is a buffer that keeps your tank from turning acidic or basic. With a kH of 0 any Co2, acid or base that enters your tank will change the pH which could be harmful later. Add arm and hammer baking soda to your tank until the kH gets at least 4 degrees of hardness.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

What is the KH of your tap water? It's actually pretty difficult to remove a buffer from a solution, so you probably aren't starting with much. I'd try some NaHCO3 (baking soda) to get it back to KH of 3 or so. You can get by with less, but you run a slight risk of sudden pH crashes.

I don't have any particular experience with Aquasoil, so I can't comment on how it interacts with KH.


----------



## Edward (May 25, 2004)

There is nothing wrong about zero KH. Don’t worry. 
Anybody seen dead fish and plants after rain?


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. The tap water is zero kh.
So far the fish are doing well but the plants are not.
i have just figured out i've only been dosing macros and not micros because of product misidentification.

A lightning bolt moment

Regards

Stan


----------



## nasfish (Sep 26, 2005)

Hi,

When I started using Aquasoil about 8 months ago, my KH is 0 to 1 (tested using Sera and API KH Test Kit). pH around 6.5-6.8, and still the plants are growing great. My tap water KH is around 4 to 6. No need baking soda either.
Now my KH constant at 2-3 KH, great for growing Toninas.

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


----------



## Krisybabe9 (Mar 21, 2006)

I have had a similar problem in my 36 with ADA powersand and aquasoil.
Here is my previous thread on the matter:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/16545-water-parameter-confusion-help.html?highlight=ADA+KH

My tap water is pretty good. But after 24 hours my KH is dropping to levels around 0-2. I've been adding baking soda like its going out of style all to no avail. My KH ends up in the toilet and then my Ph starts to drop. I'm having a hard time keeping fish alive.
At this point, I don't know what to do. Does anyone have any suggestions?
PS...didn't mean to hijack your thread Stan


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Stop using pH controllers and simpl ego b bubble count and plant/fish observation. 0 kH or a pH of 5.8 will not hurt fish providing the change is gradual.

From my understanding, ADA soil will further soften already soft water. I am not 100% sure what ADA soil is made of, but if my assumptions are correct then the clay particles of the soil itself will initially strip carbonates, K, etc. This is how it comes with NH4+ in it. Technically I don't think it strips carbonates but I am not sure of the chemistry behind it. Same prinicipal behind that as what makes peat soften water; lots of energetically (-) charged exchange sites.

Wait, carbonates are already negativly charged..... maybe its grabbing bicarbonate, or freeing the Ca or Na attached to the carbonates?


----------



## [email protected] (May 12, 2005)

Golly-- I don't test anything and have no clue what my "KH" is. I use only Aqua Soil and Power Sand substrate and all my tanks (11 total right now) just do straight-up awesome. Baking soda? fish dying?? I think you've issues beyond just Aqua Soil.
Suggestions? Toss out the test kit.


----------



## nasfish (Sep 26, 2005)

Come to think of it, I do exactly nothing when KH is around 0 (using PS and Aquasoil). Yet the plants are growing great. I do inject a lot CO2 though.

Some people, like me like to test and know the water parameters. Feels safe. And play scientist even though I am not. At least, I know, and able to give some ideas (details) to others if my tank have problems.

Best Regards


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

nasfish,

What is your kH out of the tap?


----------



## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

nasfish- sure, I understand. Your aquascape is quite lovely. Excellent health I must say!


----------



## nasfish (Sep 26, 2005)

Hi,

dennis, my tap water KH is 4 to 6.
jsenske, thank you, but not as lovely as yours, which by the way have inspired me to do more than just growing plants (keeping it alive  ) and I am sure many others have too.

Best Regards


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, Jeff and Tom, I love what you guys are doing. [envy, envy!]
Tom, is it advisable/worthwhile to put a handful of coral chips in the canister to keep a constant available supply of calcium carbonate in my 120G or should I just stick to a normal routine of keeping the ferts non limiting? My objective is moderate growth with room for error. [missing a weekly WC or dosing-i'm sometimes away for more than two weeks w/o anyone to dose except feed the fish]
My lighting is low to moderate and i'm keeping mostly ferns and mosses in this tank.
[i know people say in which case why are you blowing your money on aquasoil! to which i say i like it ok!]

Dennis, i think like what your analysis, the content of Aquasoil has some qualities like peat which reduces KH levels[takes out some bicarbonates if i'm not mistaken]. My other non Aquasoil tanks that are on low level mainteinance show a rise in KH over time- from zero then 6 in a matter of days. Not so with this 100% As tank. However, I think the GH is stable[no pH swings] There is only a 1 ph point difference between co2 on/off.

Krisybabe9, like what Jeff says I think could be other matters with your tank and hope you can identify it. My normal 3 guesses would be shock, diseased stock or bullying. 
My fish loves the water at pH5.5-6.5. I have Altums, Chocolate Guoramies, Sturisoma Aureum, Wood Shrimp, Otos.

Nice tank Nasfish. I love the E cinereums, perhaps you could share with Krisybabe9 what happen to your Boesmanii's.

Back to topic, I just thought the plants in this Aquasoil tank wasn't doing so well and just want to check if kH=0 was normal when using Aquasoil and is ok for plants.
Turns out I was dosing only macros. The LFS ran out of the regular one i was buying and I thought a similar looking bottle one would do the job.[dumb huh?]

Warm regards

Stan Chung


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

quote:
However, I think the GH is stable[no pH swings] There is only a 1 ph point difference between co2 on/off.

Huh? Gh should be of no regard here, especially when discussing pH. A 1 point pH drop is ideal, or a good starting point at least. Watch your fish and plants and add more CO2 if necessary.


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Hi Dennis,

From my limited understanding, don't higher amount of dissolved salts buffer pH?

Regards

Stan


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

GH tells you the quantity of dissolved divalent cations (mostly Ca & Mg). These elements do not react in any meaningful way with the pH. KH tells you the buffering capacity of the water. Usually most of this comes from dissolved carbonate (CO3--). This does have an effect on the tank's pH. More carbonate = a higher pH.


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Ah, may i know does dissolved calcium carbonate increase kH reading?
pH Buffering from my misguided mind meant that dissolved salts for example NaCl do reduce the effects of added acid or alkaline solution. Is this erroneous?

Sorry for these chemistry 101 questions.

regards

Stan


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Most dissolved salts have no effect on GH, KH, or pH. NaCl, KCl, and KNO3, have no effect at all. The addition of carbonates or phosphates will add buffering capacity to the water (higher KH). The addition of Calcium or Magnesium will raise the GH.

Most natural ground water (from a well) obtains GH and KH from calcium carbonate (CaCO3) that dissolves from limestone and other mineral deposits. The water picks up a little magnesium on the way too, since this usually exists in the same formations. Surface water has less exposure time to these types of rock so people who get their water from rivers & streams tend to have a lower GH and KH.

This is why water tends to be either high in both GH and KH or low in both GH and KH.


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Ok, got it. Thanks

Regards

Stan


----------



## Fiki (Apr 16, 2006)

In my previous experience, it would be necessary to be more than careful with the kH=O, having in mind that CO2 injection could rapidly drop down pH value, due to absence of buffer capacity in your tank. Therefore, significant fluctuations of pH, no need to mention carbonate deficiency for the normal plants growth, could have impact on fish and plants environmetal growth as well as on their health. I would rapidly take a measure to bring up kH at least on 4.

Fiki


----------



## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Fiki said:


> In my previous experience, it would be necessary to be more than careful with the kH=O, having in mind that CO2 injection could rapidly drop down pH value, due to absence of buffer capacity in your tank. Therefore, significant fluctuations of pH, no need to mention carbonate deficiency for the normal plants growth, could have impact on fish and plants environmetal growth as well as on their health. I would rapidly take a measure to bring up kH at least on 4.
> 
> Fiki


That's a myth.

Fiki,
You can grow healthy fish and beautiful plants at zero KH. No need to test pH, no need to dose baking soda.

Edward


----------



## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

Edward said:


> That's a myth.
> 
> Fiki,
> You can grow healthy fish and beautiful plants in zero KH. No need to test pH, no need to dose baking soda.
> ...


that is true but not all fish can handle a ph of that low-PH=5 or so. Some can take it especially if done slowly, bu tnot all. Just my observations dealing with the same issue myself at the moment.


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


----------



## Fiki (Apr 16, 2006)

Dear Edward,

Although I have all necessary equipment to provide living conditions for the aquatic plants and fishes such as kH=0, I have never tried to do so, expect for the spawning purposes (in those cases kH was between 1-5, depending on specific conditions for each species). For example, right now, carbonate hardness in all my planted tank is between 2-3 and pH is between 6-6.5. 

What I want to say is that, due extremely low buffer capacity such as kH zero, pH value simply can not be stabile, especially if you use pressurized CO2 at the same time. Therefore, I've been trying to avoid often fluctuation of pH caused by buffer insufficiency in aquarium water, as they can cause a lot of problems regarding the fishes health and possible stress.

In addition, I would appreciate if you could make a short list of aquatic plants and fishes that you successfully grow at kH zero, using the CO2 injection at the same time.

Thnx,
Fiki


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


----------



## Krisybabe9 (Mar 21, 2006)

Ok...so far I am with everyone on their explanations. I did regular maintenance today and did a 50% water change and skipped adding baking soda all together. 
Currently, the only inhabitants of the tank are 6 nerite snails, 2 amano shrimp, and 8 Corys. Should I just let everything settle down now and just keep an eye out for stress?
 Thanks


----------



## [email protected] (May 12, 2005)

Krisybabe9- sorry no one ever followe dup on this, but I would yes-- you are on the right track. Just watch. The ADA delivers. :grouphug:


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Edward said:


> There is nothing wrong about zero KH. Don't worry.
> Anybody seen dead fish and plants after rain?


Hi Edward. How do you avoid the dreaded pH crash? Or is that just another myth?


----------



## Krisybabe9 (Mar 21, 2006)

Jeff....Thanks for your encouragement....but I need HELP!

Seriously, something just isn't right. I've let everything be this week. I did my regular water changes without adding any baking soda. But my Ph just keeps dropping on its own and the fish are stressing. The cories are regularly jetting to the surface for air. 
I had ordered some new fish from live aquaria about three weeks ago and they died within a few hours...the replacements arrived today. They have spent the entire day in the drip bucket (11am until present...12:30 am). The Ph in the bucket is equal to that in my tank but each time I try to add the fish to the tank they are gasping at the surface (they are not gasping in the bucket). The Co2 which is controlled with a controller currently set at 6.8 has not switched on in days. 
Could I have used too much powersand and the excess peat is sucking out KH? I just covered the bottom so that I could still see glass underneath.
There's also another issue I have been dealing with...I am fighting this greyish stringy algae that just seems to love my glosso, blyxa j., and driftwood. I've been using the Green Brighty step series. Are the issues interrelated? 
I just can't find a balance here. I am so frustrated that I feel like ripping everything out and buying myself some neon gravel and some tacky ornaments. 
Jeff...if you're not too busy, I may just give you a call. Perhaps there is something that I am missing while writing my posts that you could catch if I take it from the top.


----------



## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Fiki said:


> What I want to say is that, due extremely low buffer capacity such as kH zero, pH value simply can not be stabile, especially if you use pressurized CO2 at the same time. Therefore, I've been trying to avoid often fluctuation of pH caused by buffer insufficiency in aquarium water, as they can cause a lot of problems regarding the fishes health and possible stress. In addition, I would appreciate if you could make a short list of aquatic plants and fishes that you successfully grow at KH zero, using the CO2 injection at the same time.





banderbe said:


> Hi Edward. How do you avoid the dreaded pH crash? Or is that just another myth?


Please see:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ing/27522-low-kh-and-ph-crash.html#post201725

Thank you
Edward


----------



## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Krisybabe9
Most likely your aquarium is not cycled yet and also the new substrate needs huge water changes before any fish can be added. 

Edward


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Krisybabe9 said:


> Jeff....Thanks for your encouragement....but I need HELP!
> 
> Seriously, something just isn't right. I've let everything be this week. I did my regular water changes without adding any baking soda. But my Ph just keeps dropping on its own and the fish are stressing. The cories are regularly jetting to the surface for air.
> I had ordered some new fish from live aquaria about three weeks ago and they died within a few hours...the replacements arrived today. They have spent the entire day in the drip bucket (11am until present...12:30 am). The Ph in the bucket is equal to that in my tank but each time I try to add the fish to the tank they are gasping at the surface (they are not gasping in the bucket). The Co2 which is controlled with a controller currently set at 6.8 has not switched on in days.
> ...


Hi kris,

Sorry to hear you are having difficulty coping. my advice is to remove the fauna into another container/pail with the filter+aeration[to keep for a week]

Remove as much water out of the tank then remove the infected leaves. Use one or two caps of phyton git into a 250 ml spray and spray on leaves of all the plants to keep from drying up while you do a siphon as you fill. [i noticed doing this for 30 minutes made the hair algae on my B aubertii turn pale and seem to die off.]

Fill to 4-6" level and do the siphon as you fill.
Fill one one side and siphon out on other side of aquarium. [if you are using Aquasoil, take care not to disturb this and use appropriate measures. sock tied round the inlet works great!] incoming water should be dechlorinated or stick in some packs of activated carbon in sock.

Once you are satisfied water is clear, fill up, pump in some brighty K as per instruction. Then use some Bacter balls or bacter 100 to speed up cycling. [penac W with the b 100 if you have]

Restart the pump.

Fish should go in a week later. you can do step one of the brighty series then.

This is what i do with ADA product on hand and Jeff or somebody else may have a better solution. Hope it works out.

Regards

Stan


----------



## Krisybabe9 (Mar 21, 2006)

Thanks for your suggestions. The filter was fully cycled before I rescaped and I rescaped the tank the first week of April, so it has been setup for over 8 weeks now. I didn't add any fish until the third week of May. I regularly do massive water changes....probably 40-50% 2 times per week.

At present, I caved and have been buffering with baking soda. I currently have 5 nerites, 7 cories, 2 B. kubotai, and 2 P. denisonii in the tank and as long as I buffer with baking soda they all remain ok. I really don't want to add baking soda....but I also don't want $150 worth of fish to die either...my wallet can't afford that kind of mistake.
As for the algae...I'm still fighting the battle. I'm considering switching to EI. Anyone have great results with EI and ADA substrates? 

I don't know, I just don't know what to do anymore. I want this to go back to being easy and fun....back before I rescaped, I guess. It's gotten so bad that I have started to think about selling all my gadgets, fancy ada stuff, and beautiful stem plants and going bare bottom to raise some discus or something. AAAARRRGHHHHHH!:frusty:


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

hi kris,

Me neither![losing fish that is!]
i'm rescaping 2nd tank as well and dutifully following instruction from experts.
A little patience about getting the ecosystem up and running before the fish goes in helps especially when the Aquasoil provides some NH4+.
You really need to crowd it with plants in the beginning. Nevermind if they are cheap stem plants in the beginning. I have stuck in water wisteria bunches still tied up in just to suck up nutrients. 
Ease up on the lighting if the algae is driving you crazy and suck up as much as you can.
From experience, Blyxa and crypts don't do well in new tanks, they melt easily.
i seriously don't think ph is the issue on your fish deaths. i have kubotai's in pH 6 to 7.8 in different situations. Likely your fish were stressed out in some other way. cory's do go up for a gulp of air once awhile. i think that's natural.[could be wrong!]
ADA does recommend using it's Activated Carbon for fresh setups to suck up toxins. I must say those are the goodstuff. Fizzes in water for a few seconds.

Hope it goes well.

Regards

Stan


----------



## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

Kris-- make some room in your PM box! Please call me and I will get you on the right track. After that, we'll come back and post exactly what we did so everyone else can learn from it. There's something not right with your system and I need to talk to you to get it right. The is absolutely no reason you should be haing these troubles and for Pete's sake-- adding baking soda is a ridiculous task that you should not have to be doing! You deserve better, and I will help, but I need a few minutes on the phone. 
I promise to post back here with all the details.


----------

