# The ammonia issue



## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

Hi, this is my first post.
I just set up my first 2,5 gallon aquarium with a male betta, 2 ramshorn snails, 4 river nerites and 2 physella acuta snails.
Plants: three vallisnerias, one amazon sword, three elodeas, two little unidentified echinodorus and a piece of java moss attached to the gravel. Edited: I forgot to mention the surface duckweed (lemna minor)
After reading D. Walstad´s book, I was happy and ready to set it all up and put the fish into the tank just after filling it with water, when suddenly I thought about taking another look at this forum. Then I started reading about:
- the accumulation of ammonia that could take place after preparing the NPT
- letting the potting soil to get some air overnight to get rid of NH3
- people cycling NPT´s for weeks...
... and I thought "what the hell? The author of this method puts the fish in the water the very same day she sets the tank!" 
So, just to stay in the safe side and for the betta´s sake I aireated the soil overnight and spent 17 extra euro in this NH3 test kit (which I don´t regret). 24 hours after filling the tank with water and WITHOUT A SINGLE WATER CHANGE, I get the following values:
PH - 7.4 (my tap water is 7.6)
NH3 - 0.009 mg/l (which, according to the test´s leaflet is safe for that ph)
NO3 - 10 mg/l
NO2 - 0 mg/l
KH - 4-5

So all the above guys have been in the tank for 3 hours now and all of them seem to be as happy as a lark. Is this just beginners luck, or D. Walstad´s sight about the ammonia issue is just accurate...?

PS: sorry if I made up any words, English ain´t my mother tongue...  And thank you all guys for your work!!!!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC! 

Walstad does sometimes put fish in right away, but remember she does a number of things to prevent problems with ammonia. She plants very heavily from the start (which you have done), she stocks the tank with few fish at first (which you have done), and she is prepared to do frequent large water changes if she sees any problems.

So I think you are in good shape. Just keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite levels, and be ready with the water changes if needed.

Your English is very good, and it's nice to meet someone who is not afraid of snails, LOL!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes, Michael is right - there are things you can do to not let the uncycled tank kill the fish. It's mandatory work but with this kind of tank you are headed toward times when you don't have to do a single thing and the tank will stay clean and the plants will thrive.

I say that because the 2 dominating "methods" to run a planted tank (EI and PPS) never aim for a stable tank. You work from day 1 and keep on working to maintain the tank clean. That's just fine with many people because all of us like to stick our hands in the tank. But the tank is never well established. You do the work to keep it clean.

What you have chosen to do has a continuation that makes sense.

--Nikolay


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

Thank you for answering! 
I think I´ll seize the moment to ask something else...
...my original intention was to have a "no-tech" tank by using no light but sunlight (not that I have anything against "tech", I just wanted to keep my bills as they are). Then I read in this forum about plants "noticing" the dwindling light period in the fall and winter, this fact having consequences that I didn´t get to understand.
I live in the north of Spain, which isn´t really as a sunny place as the rest of the country...
Do aquatic plants die if you don´t give them a 12-14 hours daily period of light?
Can´t help being such a "tight-wad" 

...and thanks so much again...


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Believe it or not aquatic plants do just fine with only 1 hour of strong light and 23 hours of total darkness.

Noone runs their lights like that because normal people want to see the tank for longer than 1 hour a day. But, if you are so inclined, that knowledge can really make you think about the lighting practices we all use. The Japanese have figured the best way to light a planted tank years ago. But most of us just run the lights 8-11 hours a day.

The above is just an example of how you can question the common sense of the things we do in this hobby. I assure you - if you start dumping fertilizers in your water (like most of us do) and hit the tank with sunlight you will quickly have an algae issue. Why is it that huge algae problems are not the norm in Nature? 
1. Because the food stays in the substrate. 
2. Because the water is not loaded with nutrients. 

The "normal" concentrations of fertilizers in the US are 5-10 ppm NO3, 0.1 - 1.5 ppm P, 30 ppm K, and also Mg, Ca, Trace, Iron... Just like... nowhere in Nature.

Simplest hands-off tank you can setup is the one that emulates Nature. Not a tank that you expect to do whatever you think it must do.

For advice on how to setup a sun lit tank ask Michael. He has more than 3 outdoor ponds and the advice he gives you is the best.

--Nikolay


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

Thank you, Niko, I´ll keep that in mind


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Sunlight tanks have both advantages and disadvantages. The light is free, and depending on your set-up, it may be more intense than any artificial light that you can buy.

The disadvantage is lack of control. Sunlight varies with season and weather, so at times you may be getting too much, and at others not enough. This can make it more difficult to control algae.

Plants have much more ability to adapt to inconsistent lighting than most people realize, as long as they get enough most of the time. Many people make the assumption that since most of our aquarium plants come from tropical regions, they need 10 to 12 hours of light everyday. In fact, no plant in nature gets 12 hours of consistent light every day. The hours near sunrise and sunset have much lower light for several reasons. Many species come from forested environments where trees shade the water, and many more are shaded by other aquatic plants. And then there is the weather.

Aquatic plants evolved to cope with poor and inconsistent natural light, which is the reason we can grow them at all under our puny artificial lighting. I'm not sure I would go as far as Niko does with his intense one hour photoperiod, LOL, but the mid-day burst schedule probably does come closer to natural conditions than the 12 hours of weak light most aquarium plants get.


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

Thank you, Michael, with that info in mind, I think I´ll give sunlight a try. I keep my tank just under a window to the south-east, but fall has just started in the last few days (weather is becoming crazier every year) and we are getting less light here in Asturias (my province) now. I was just worried about no having bulbs lighting the tank. PH and NH3 values are the same as yesterday (maybe snails and betta castings kept the ammonia level) and everything seems fine for the moment (fingers crossed!)

Muchas gracias and have a nice day!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

There was a Spanish guy here on APC about 4-5 years ago showing a sunlit tank in his back yard. It was a very sunny and dry area of Spain. Evaporation was like 15 liters per day or something.

Do a search here on APC and you will find it.

Ah, here it is, some pix are lost but you see it is more beautiful than many indoor tanks:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/5018-my-sunny-tank-street-photo-session.html

--Nikolay


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

Wow, that was some tank! Sorry if I didn´t provide pics of mine, I have only this really poor camera in my mobile phone... and I´m not really into mobile phones... If I manage to transfer images via bluetooth to my pc I would be able to add some pics.
Anyway, this guy lives in one of the warmest and sunniest parts of Spain. Landscapes in there are so similar to a desert that in the 70s plenty of Italian B-series western movies were filmed there .
Thanks for the link, Niko, it´s exciting to exchange (I should say: receive) ideas with people from the other side of the Athlantic!

Pablo


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Pablo, the fact that you are starting your tank in the fall may be a good thing. The tank will have a chance to establish and mature before getting the more intense light of spring and summer.

Please keep us updated!


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

I will!
For now, I have already found two... groups of laid snail eggs... I´m starting to worry...  I guess it won´t be long until I must get some lettuce in the tank...


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Snails breeding shows that you have organics in the tank. If the snails start to disappear your tank has less organics.

Either way - you must make sure that you biofilter is sized properly for your tank. And that is it running without interruptions.

--Nikolay


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

niko said:


> Snails breeding shows that you have organics in the tank. If the snails start to disappear your tank has less organics.
> 
> Either way - you must make sure that you biofilter is sized properly for your tank. And that is it running without interruptions.
> 
> --Nikolay


When you say "organics" you mean "bacteria"? Or maybe dissolved carbon or nutrients? I measured all levels again today and everything seems stable. I´m only worried about the vallisnerias. Some of their leaves are developing like... holes in the tissue. These three species of snails aren´t supposed to touch plants. Could it be what they call "melting" of a plant? I´m not really sure about what that means.
I visited the rural fountain where I got my ramshorn snails and I found this little fish... I don´t know much about fish yet, but it was so similar to a guppy (maybe somebody left it there?)... only that just its tail was coloured in orange with black spots, the rest of the body was brown. I could see some fry as well. I wish I had a proper camera.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I think Niko means organic debris--dead leaves and things like that. This is a proper diet for snails, and if they have plenty they will breed.

It is not unusual for vallisneria to melt when first planted. When I planted my 40 gallon, almost all the vallisneria lost its leaves. But in a month or so it all grew back, and then some.


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## m830 (Oct 24, 2011)

Swell. Thanks!


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