# What have i missed?



## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

I dont know why echinodorus "rubin" looks like this. I fertilize with pmdd 6 doses per week. Micro is cut in half. Injected co2, and 0,7 w per liter. Arcadia plant pro t5 tubes.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

I also have JBL fertilizer in the ground.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

.7wpl of T5 is more like 1.05wpl of T8; much more efficient reflectors, lower restrike too.

At this level of light, with low dosing, I'm wondering what your substrate is. Some info on JBL would be handy too.

You've probably got a combo of both nutrient and CO2 deficiency unless it's some uniquely fertile substrate.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

I have gravle as a substrate. The JBL is the balls that I put under the plant.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I'd start in the easy place then; Reduce your lighting. Unless you're very experienced, the level of light you have is going to cause CO2 issues. PMDD also lacks PO4, and it really isn't necessary to restrict it. It's generally harder to dose a tank without having a substrate with CEC too. 

Either way, less light will make the tank much easier to handle. If you continue to have problems with less light, I'd examine CO2 first. If your problems go away, try increasing the dosing and the light again; if the same problem happens, it's the CO2.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

I´l try to up the co2 and see what happens. I have discus so i´ve hard to believe that I lack po4. I got kh 9 and ph is at 6.7, newly calibrated ph-meter to. Could that really be lack of co2 then? Going to change my reactor too, don´t think i get the co2 even in the tank.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

And 7 times pmdd per week isn´t low dose, or is it?


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

And I´m about to change the lightning to 2x150 w HQI. Maybe if I reduce the light time from 10 to 8 hours? Or its the amount and not the time thats the problem?


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## JeanPierre (Apr 21, 2010)

I have discus too and had low PO4 with PPMD.

I'm still a beginner but low PO4 is no good for plants.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

KH-pH-CO2 in the column isn't the most accurate measure of CO2. Aquariums have a lot going on for buffering, and not all of it impacts KH. This is why drop checkers exist. Even if it were accurate, the quantity of light you have over your tank is very high, and unless you've got a PAR meter it's hard to tell just exactly how much light is there. One of the most common issues I see is people assuming they have enough CO2, when they can't even measure it properly. Because of the cost to do so, it's more of an art than a science right now.

PMDD is very lean compared to what others have dosed. I find it has deficiency issues much more easily at regular dosing quantities, and that without a CEC bearing substrate it's a bit of an uphill battle.

Feeding discus may provide enough PO4, or it may not. How much are you feeding? How much goes uneaten? How much are the plants taking up? A calibrated test kit can pretty much solve the issue.

What size is your tank? 2x150w might work out; if nothing else being able to lower, raise and shade the light makes it easier to control. Reducing the light time doesn't really help IME; if anything lower light for longer durations (10-12 hour photo period) and watching for when the plants begin to close is a nice way to do things.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

The tank is 570 L 160x60x60 cm. I feed 3 times a day, most get eaten. I checked po4 now, its 3.0 according to my salifert test. But i dont trust the tests, it if i would believe the nitrate test i should stop dosing kno3, and thats not right.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Your new lighting should be perfect for the job. 300w of HQI can be made on the intense side, or even low light just by raising/lowering a foot or two. I think the light change will solve a lot of your problems.

Salifert is a pretty good test kit. If it's showing 3ppm, you definitely aren't deficient. I like to get around 5ppm in myself, just to keep gsa/gda down.

I'm spawning out apistos in 20ppm NO3, and I've seen accounts of doing 3 generations of discus in higher. Inorganic NO3/PO4 really isn't so bad for warm water fish.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

Ok so i can trust my saliert test? Because i tested the nitrate now and it says i have 50. Should I dose less kno3 and dose K instead? And i upped the co2, hope it helps


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You can probably trust it to know the difference between 50ppm and 40ppm if nothing else. Still, accidents happen in manufacture and hobby test kit recalls aren't exactly a priority to anyone. I think calibration is a decent idea for any test kit; scales are cheap, and a double check always offers peace of mind. If you want/need instructions for calibration solutions, I can type something up for you. I believe there are a couple guides out there as well. At very least if you weighed out the KNO3 in your PMDD solution with a scale, you should just be able to dose some DI H2O with a weeks worth and use it to verify as a rudimentary test.

With your level of lighting and the level of NO3 that PMDD provides, I'm kind of surprised the test kit is indicating that much NO3. If it turns out to be accurate then definitely back off. NO3 test kits have an indicator solution that lacks good resolution at higher PPM's (50+), and if it's outside reasonable uptake/WC ranges then you have to start worrying about how much of it is related to organics.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

start worrying about how much of it is related to organics? What do you mean?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

What I mean is NO3 from organic sources means that other compounds go along with the production of that NO3 which can't be measured. When people worry about 20ppm NO3 and they aren't fertilizing, it's because their fish are sitting in a bath of their own sewage, urine and rotting food so thick that it's added 20ppm of NO3, which is only a fraction of what their waste consists of. When it's from pure NO3, we're talking about the elements that 98% of air is made from, bound in a stable way.

Discerning the difference between what part of the NO3 on a test kit is from accumulated fertilizers and what part is from waste can be difficult unless your test kit is calibrated, and you either know very well how much your plants uptake and how big/frequent your water changes are. Without these things, high levels of NO3 are hard to differentiate the source of.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

Ok so what do i do now? I change 50% once a week. How do i calibrate etc?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You change 50% once a week and dosing <10ppm NO3 per week? Ya, I'd calibrate the test kit. Either your stock solution is off or the test kit is. 40ppm of NO3 from organic waste isn't something I could see discus being happy in.

How accurate of a do you have access to? If you don't have one, I'd suggest getting one; accurate test kits and dosing answer questions and save money.

Either way You need to make a 165mg/l solution of KNO3. If it's accurate to .1 of a gram (worst accuracy I'd use) then just toss 16.5g of KNO3 in 1L of DI H2O. Take 100ml of that, add it to 900ml of DI, repeat once more. From there you have a solution with a concentration of 100ppm NO3. take this solution and dilute as necessary to test certain ranges. In your case, 2:1 DI to calibration solution gives a 50ppm test. See if the results from your test kit looks like the results from your tank. If it doesn't, try to match the color by testing various ranges. When the color looks about matched, you'll know how far off your test kit is.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

DI is distilled water? New abbreviation to me


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ya, distilled/deionized.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

Ok, i´l get to it then


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

I did what you said, if thats right my test is of with about 25 ppm too much.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

tested some more i smaller ranges. Looks like its 10-15 ppm of.
I should feed and dose less...


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

I´ve upped the co2 allot too, so i hope the plants can uptake more.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

Should i dose just K and micro?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Sorry, I've been offline for a few days working at other things.

Don't worry about the NO3 coming from dosing in terms of toxicity, but rather as a concern for wasted fertilizer. PMDD dosing with 50% weekly WC means you've got a max of 16-18ppm coming from inorganic NO3. Your plants are going to be taking up their N as NH4 and NO2 before NO3, meaning you've supplied enough to exceed the need to dose. At the same time though, a lot of NH4 isn't so great for algae. 

If you want what works, I'd say work on more effective feeding. Find live cultures, reduce the flake quantity, etc. so that less of your NO3 is organic. If I were you I'd be exponentially more concerned with the fact that you've got something around 7-20ppm of organic related NO3 than the 16-18ppm of inorganic. 

The easy way would be to continue dosing while reducing waste from feeding. If you want the job done fast, this is what I'd recommend.

If you want to look at details for the sake of aquarium knowledge, then you can always examine your food sources. Look at their elemental analysis or try to make an educated guess as to what it would be based on its ingredients. Once you know what's in your food and how much you're dosing, you know the maximum amount of each element being dosed through food. If you find that the appropriate quantity of NO3 is already added through ideal feeding methods, then try withdrawing the nitrogen from your fertilizers (be sure to substitute the K+ lost with K2SO4) and continuing on this way.


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## faltaren (Apr 30, 2010)

Ok i get what you mean but how can know how much no3 the food gives? I Feed high protein food, from aquatic nature and i´ve ordered d-50 from tropic (50% protein). I also feed with beef heart 4 times a week and frosen food like, mysis and artemia 3 times a week.

Thanks for all the help.


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