# Roots everywhere and yellowing of leaves



## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Hey, All.

In particular, I'm seeing both of these problems in Hottonia palustris and Lysimachia nummularia 'Aurea'. It's the Hottonia that's causing me worry at the moment. The lower leaves have been turning yellow, and roots are growing out of practically every node. They're in better shape now than when I received them, but only in the sense that the leaves are bigger and the internodes are greatly shortened. 

These are in a 10-gallon tank with 28W PC lighting, Eco-Complete, and the temperature remains pretty steady at about 76F. On a DAILY basis, I dose 1.5 mL Flourish Iron, 0.5 mL Flourish Phosphorus, approximately 0.5 mL Flourish, and some moderate amount of KNO3 (5 mL stock solution KNO3; stock solution = 1/4 tsp KNO3 plus "pinch" of epsom salt in 10 tsp H2O). Might I be low in K? I have K2SO4 that I haven't been using because it's so darn dirty. I know yellowing can indicate a deficiency in either iron or potassium, but I think I'm adding enough iron. BTW, the last time I measured the GH of my tank, it was at 11 German degrees. Out of the tap, it's typically less than one. Either something's leaching out calcium or there's still quite a bit of residual hardness left over from when I was using Equilibrium (up until fairly recently). Oh yeah - and I have DIY CO2 going into the tank, but the pH is still well over 7.6 (as high as my test reads). 

What would roots coming out of every node indicate? I know it's "normal" in certain species like Cardamine lyrata and Hydrocotyle spp. Somehow, I don't think Hottonia or lloydiella are "supposed" to do this. It's driving me nuts. 

Anybody got any ideas? Thanks.

-Naomi


----------



## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

Naomi,
I grew Lysmmachia and it had aerial roots on it. Yellowing of leaves can be a Bunch of deficiencies as far as my book i am reading (Western Fertilizer Handbook) says. Nitrogen/Magnesium/Manganese/Potassium/Iron. Yellowing of leaves is Chlorosis and i think its just a loss of Plant Pigment - so anything that is inhibiting the production of pigment will cause it.


----------



## aquoi (Mar 21, 2004)

I think it's chlorosis caused by some sort of deficiency. Iron, molydebnum, and a bunch of others. Check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm


----------



## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi Naomi,

It looks like you're doing pretty well on the nutrients. I figure you are using 35 ppm NO3 per week, and 4.2 ppm Fe per week. If you are doing a 50% water change weekly these numbers are right on with T. Barr's suggestions.

However, for PO4 it comes out to only .5 ppm per week. Tom usually recommends 1 to 2 ppm PO4 twice per week with a weekly 50% water change. So I would at least quadruple the Flourish P.

It could be you are running out of P and the plants can't metabolize the Fe until the missing P is absorbed.

The only other thing I can think of is that you might not have enough light compared to what I have read about other 10 gallon tanks. People are posting that 3 w/gal for a 10 gallon tank is not enough light. I would judge this yourself by observing how well other plants that have a high light requirement grow in your tank.

Also, I don't know much about Hottonia _palustris_, as I have never cultivated it and I am sure you know more about its culltivation than I do. But in case you don't have Kasselmann's book, she says the following:

"Under the false assumption that it is the North American H. _inflata_ species, it is not uncommon for the shoots to be used for cultivation in tropical aquariums where its maintenance, however, rarely proves to be satisfactory. A temperature of 25degC (77degF) in the aquarium should not be exceeded for lengthy periods. Also, both intensive illumination as well as a freestanding location in the aquarium's foreground is recommended."

For Lysimachia _nummularia_ she says:
"This species belongs to the regularly commercially available cold-water plants.........will display optimum growth only under good lighting and water temperatures up to 20degC (68degF)."

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Steve Pituch


----------



## Sue (Mar 19, 2004)

That makes sense about the Lysimachia nummularia. I have both types around the yard and nowhere does it grow into the water on it's own. There is a big patch of it in the woods that's underwater now because of the river and snow melt but it's on ground once things warm up.

Has the opportunity to live submersed in a million place here and it doesn't.


----------



## Chuck H (Jan 25, 2004)

Naomi,

You do know Aurea is supposed to be yellow, don't you? ...just kidding! 

I have been growing both of these plants for some time now, and I'm betting it's iron, though without seeing the plants, it's hard to say for sure.

Now I'm going to say something that might PO some folks: Ferrous gluconate is not a particularly efficient way to dose iron. It works, but it takes a LOT to satisfy some plants. Carlos has posted that he is adding something like 21 ml of both Flourish and Flourish Iron each week to his 20 gallon tank. That's around 300mg Fe each week, or more than 4 mg/l !!!! That's macro nutrient level. I was dosing over 2ppm Fe each week before I gave up and switched back to a chelated form. I get much better results while dosing far less.

I had trouble with both Hottonia and Lysimachia while using Flo. Iron; small growth and the shedding of lower leaves (after chlorosis) where intermediate symptoms. When the deficiency reached a severe point, the growing tips of the Lysimachia died, and the Hottonia quit growing and began rotting at the base of the stem.

Some other things make me think it's an issue with iron...

High calcium complicates the uptake of some nutrients, especially trace metals. That's why hard water needs more traces.

Also, Steve makes a good point about PO4 limitation possibly causing problems with uptake and utilization. Things are not always as they appear; sometimes an obvious deficiency symptom may turn up when the nutrient in question is plentiful. For example, I have seen chronic iron deficiency result in what appeared to be calcium deficiency despite the fact that my water has nearly 100 ppm Ca. It drove me nuts until I finally figured out what was going on.

After iron, I'd suspect potassium. I've seen Lysimachia chlorose (new word!) and shed leaves in poor K+ water.

By the way everyone, take the "rules" of experts like Kasselmann with a grain of salt. I've grown Lysimachia that had leaves the size of a quarter and gained nearly 1" every day in water that hovered between 24.5 and 25C. That's considerably warmer than she suggests. If my Lysimachia was not "optimum", then I'd hate to know how big it can get. I do agree about the lighting, and many plants do prefer cooler water though they grow ok in warmer temps.


----------

