# Need help getting rid of BBA



## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm really stumped by this one. I know the first response for BBA is to check C02. Well I have been in the 30 to 40ppm range now for several weeks and just can't get rid of it!! It is mainly attacking the slower growing Anubia leaves and its slowly spreading from plant to plant. It has even started to appear on some of the moss. It also inhabits the large piece of driftwood in my tank . I have 10 or so otos in the tank that are eating some of it, but I think it is growing faster than they can eat it. A few weeks back I went ahead and cleaned the filters trimmed the affected leaves off and removed as much as I could from the driftwood. Flipped the rocks over that had the stuff growing on it. Basically just tried to make life as hard as I could for the stuff, but it's back again. Perhaps I just don't have enough fast growing plants? the tank is mainly slow growers although I have a good amount of floating plants like Frogbit and watersprite that grow quickly.

Here are the tank parameters:

Size= 4'x2'x2' 125g
Lighting= Coralife fixture with 4x65w bulbs on for 12 hours
Plant mass= moderate
Bio load= 4 adult Discus, 20 small schoolers, few other small fish
Feeding schedule= 3x's a day live and frozen food.

PH=6.5
kh=4*
gh=7*
c02=38ppm
Nitrate=10ppm
Phosphate=1-2ppm
Potassium= 12-18ppm

I do weekly 50% water changes and dose the following after refill:
1tsp Potassium Nitrate
1.5tsp Potassium Sulfate
4ml Fleet enema


midweek I dose:
1/2 tsp Potasium sulfate and Nitrate
2ml Fleet (phosphate)

55ml weekly total of Flourish and Flourish Iron are continually added to tank via a dosing system.

The only other thing I can think of is to stop using the PH controller and just leave the C02 on all day with a calibrated a bubble rate to hit a lower target PH during the day? Maybe reduce the photoperiod too?


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Add more CO2. Never place your faith in a test kit. Algae doesn't lie. Adequate CO2 amounts will halt BBA, but it will not simply disappear. You must manually remove it. I would also remove the driftwood for now. BBA is adapted to grow on decaying material, which is what dw is. Be sure to keep a very clean tank. Debris of any kind must be removed and the gravel must be vacuumed every so often.

The only way I've ever been able to successfully beat BBA is to strip the tank of everything and start anew. Bleach equipment, rocks, etc., and prune all of the plants until they are free of visible algae. However, you must be absolutely sure that when you put everything back in, your CO2 is more than adequate and STABLE.

There is a fine line between enough CO2 for plants, and too much for fish. This is the line you need to ride. Set it, and don't touch it. CO2 24/7 for stability. Excess is one thing, but deficiencies are unacceptable. I keep a planted tank with fish, and a fish tank with plants, so I totally understand your situation.

Hope this helps, and good luck!


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

Thanks for the reply. I went through the tank again yesterday and cut off all affected leaves. (mainly the anubia- they are nude now LOL) Flipped over the affected rocks again to bury the stuff alive, Used my gravel vac and a brush to get as much of it off the driftwood as possible (this is a 40lbs piece of wood in this tank anchored to the bottom of the tank so it's not going anywhere). Against my best judgment I added a couple SAE's (they tend to be lazy fishfood/plant eaters when they get older), but I found them both dead today!! Maybe the heat or PH shock? It hit 85F in the tank today and the fish are breathing quite rapidly, but not at the surface. I also added about 20 Amano's and they are doing fine. Also have 35 cherry shrimp on order. I figure the more to eat what is left the better. 
One thing worth noting is that the plants havn't really ever pearled.  Well, maybe the java fern a little. The only time I get good pearling is when I change the water. Perhaps I should get some riccia in there to use as an indictor plant? If the riccia pearls in the tank that should mean I have enough co2- no?

I recently decided to discontinue using the PH controller and plug the solenoid into the light timer. I have a bubble rate of 1.4bub/sec which is a little slower than when it was automated, but gives me a ph of around 6.6 in the late afternoon according to my probe with all other electronics off. My PH test kit is also saying about the same thing so hopfully the C02 is dialed in now.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I think you're on the right track. CO2 is usually lower than we think/test.

My 200l tank is set at a CO2 concentration of between 40 and 60 mg/l depending on which pH test/probe I use. When it was set at what I thought was 30mg/l I was also getting some BBA. Increased the CO2 and BBA stopped growing and no adverse reaction from the fish.

Another suggestion I have is to raise your NO3 levels slightly. I usually keep mine around 15 to 20 mg/l.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

A bunch of anubias and high light often ends up in BBA land. 
They will grow back, but you need to take care of the CO2.
2 bubbles a second or 2.5 should be good.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Increase the surface movement also!
Just a nice current.....not a torrent.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## chrisl (May 24, 2004)

Wow Laith, those are some high co2 and N concentrations. I run a kh of about 5, and ph of 6.8=24ppms, but still have no pearling at all. But been afraid of running it higher. And I also only dose N to 10 in my 75 gal. Again, never really pushed the macros. Guess the guidlines are only 'guidelines' eh? lol

Chris


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

magicmagni said:


> Used my gravel vac and a brush to get as much of it off the driftwood as possible (this is a 40lbs piece of wood in this tank anchored to the bottom of the tank so it's not going anywhere).


I have experienced a direct correlation between driftwood and BBA in my tanks. Get rid of the driftwood and the BBA goes away.

TW


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

I appreciate the support folks. Since my last post I have taken the glass covers off of the tank to help it stay cooler. I really suspect poor oxygen levels in the tank are causing the fish deaths (thank God not the Discus) and perhaps even the cause of the BBA. I kind of beat you to the punch Tom (but it is reassuring to hear you recommend this) and have increased the surface movement by pointing the spraybars up toward the surface such that there is a rippling effect on the surface. This didn't seem enough though based on looking at the fish so I have also installed an air stone in both corners. They emit a fine mist and seem to really make a difference at least looking at the fish. This morning I increased the bubble rate to-you called it Tom- 2bps..and I was pleasantly surprised to see pearling plants when I got home from work today. ;-)

PH was at 6.4 just before the lights went out. Seemed a bit low so I measured the KH and it was at 3 degrees. What's odd was that it is usually 4. Tested again and got 3. Checked the tap and it was also 3 so it seems that the tap water has gotten softer. I think that when I was using the PH controller it wasn't' delivering enough C02 because the PH setting was assuming a KH of 4, but when it went to 3 then I didn't have enough C02. This was probably happening for weeks and I didn't even realize that my CO2 levels were fluctuating because the PH was on target. 

I think without using this controller and just a bubble rate like I'm doing now it won't matter if the KH Fluctuates right? At any rate the true test will be no more BBA. A little more is growing back, but I think that now I've gotten the plants pearling and have good C02 delivery it days are numbered. 

Thanks everyone,

Jeff


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

TWood said:


> I have experienced a direct correlation between driftwood and BBA in my tanks. Get rid of the driftwood and the BBA goes away.
> 
> TW


I'd even take it a step farther and say there's a correlation between the quantity of driftwood and several types of algae, as well as general water quality in the tank. Some woods are worse than others, though.


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## |squee| (Feb 3, 2005)

TWood and aquaverde,

You guys have got to be joking. Is that for real?


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

|squee| said:


> TWood and aquaverde,
> 
> You guys have got to be joking. Is that for real?


Not joking at all. Every time I added driftwood to my tanks I got runaway BBA. Removed the driftwood, the BBA faded away. I now have BBA and driftwood free tanks without doing anything else to get rid of the BBA. Try it yourself if you are having BBA problems in a tank with driftwood.

EDIT: Just speculating here, but I think the driftwood provides resources to the BBA that allows it to create a bounty of spores that eventually overwhelm the rest of the tank. Driftwood is, after all, a huge chunk of decaying matter and BBA is evolved to decay that matter.

TW


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I would not argue againt BBA loving to infest driftwood or rocks prefericially.

Adding more fast growing stem plants helps more than adding wood.

But it's quite possible and easy to prevent BBA on wood but good environmental conditions(CO2) as well as herbivores like Amano shrimp and SAE's.

When the CO2 falls, then you'll get BBA on wood first, then rocks/equipment next and finally plants.

I would suggest mossing or ferning the wood good if tyou want to keep it and crank the CO2, then check the CO2 religiously for awhile till things stabilize.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> But it's quite possible and easy to prevent BBA on wood but good environmental conditions(CO2) as well as herbivores like Amano shrimp and SAE's.


Sorry to have to say it Tom, but I think this is terrible advice. Amano shrimp and SAEs don't eat established BBA, are ridiculously overpriced, and die/are eaten easily. Been there, done that, never again. Also, regarding driftwood, why introduce a problem that requires more management instead of not introducing the problem to begin with?

But on to a larger issue.

It's my understanding that you are in San Fran where your primary water source is snowmelt. I think you need to work with other science types in other parts of the country/world with different water sources and see if some of your conclusions hold water. ;-/

In particular, I think that those of us with water from the limestone aquifers just have a different chemistry at work that you are not taking into account. I'd really like to see you work with other people in other parts of the country/world that have broad extremes of localized water parameters.

You've also posted about green dust algae (GDA) being hard to maintain in your tanks. Many of us in the limestone aquifer areas of the country have the reverse experience. I think location is related to both the GDA and BBA issues and that you are missing that relationship unless you work with the water we are stuck with.

I have a high respect for you and your work, but I think there's something about basic local water parameters that needs to taken into account.

TW


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> I would not argue againt BBA loving to infest driftwood or rocks prefericially.
> 
> Adding more fast growing stem plants helps more than adding wood.


That makes sense. Wood and rocks don't compete with algae, but plants do.



plantbrain said:


> When the CO2 falls, then you'll get BBA on wood first, then rocks/equipment next and finally plants.


This has been my observation (I have observed quite a bit of BBA growth by now with this tank), although it hasn't touched the few stem plants I have, just the slow growers. As far as it being caused by wood I wonder. I also have a 10 gallon with a large piece of wood in it and I don't have a spec of BBA (although it is packed with Red Cherry shrimp). The fact that it is wood seems irrelivant. Wood, rock, plastic, metal whatever I think the key is that the BBA seems to prefer static and somewhat rough surfaces for the stuff to grow on. I say rough because I've never yet seen the stuff grow on the glass.



plantbrain said:


> I would suggest mossing or ferning the wood good if tyou want to keep it and crank the CO2, then check the CO2 religiously for awhile till things stabilize.


Yes this has been beneficial and besides unplanted driftwood in a planted tank- no way


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I wonder if the addition of driftwood releases tannins that interfere with the KH/pH/CO2 measurement/relationship and therefore we actually get lower CO2 levels than we think we have? 

This then induces BBA and you assume that its directly related to the wood?

Just a thought...


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

TWood,

Tom's advice holds water in freaking Dallas and in freaking Greece too. That is what I know first hand. Maybe all the other cities/countries in the world are different, but it's not likely.

I do agree with you that removing a heavily infested wood is a good idea. BBA is slow to go away and it certainly helps to remove it manually. One can't expect to win that battle quickly so by removing the wood BBA is hit pretty badly.

What people often don't understand about shrimp and SAE's is that they will not help with a heavy infestation. "Heavy algae infestation" is also misunderstood. This is BBA infestation beyond "heavy". And  this is staghorn infestation beyond "heavy". A lot of people believe that such infestation is manageable and it is but it is not what shrimp and SAE's will take care of.

Shrimp and SAE should be used to help with algae when they are still invisible for our eyes but just starting to spread. Or with very light infestations that are only few days old. Good water parameters prepare the "stage" and the algae eaters only finish the cleaning. Tons of shrimp (1-2 per gallon) will clean a tank from algae but not from all types of algae and certainly not a tank that has algae like on the pictures above.

About BBA in particular I noticed that it increases day after a night when a shrimp dies during molting. I observed that 3 times now and really start to believe that BBA loves organics floating in the water. It is possible that the wood releases some organics or that the wood is a perfect substrate for the BBA to attach with its suction cup-like base. In any case maintaining the wood clean should be considered a high priority and once again - temporary removal or permanent mossing is a good idea according to me too.

--Nikolay


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

Laith said:


> I wonder if the addition of driftwood releases tannins that interfere with the KH/pH/CO2 measurement/relationship and therefore we actually get lower CO2 levels than we think we have?
> 
> This then induces BBA and you assume that its directly related to the wood?
> 
> Just a thought...


I think that is a good point and IME found this to be true, although as the wood gets older (and leaches less tannins) it is less of an issue.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> Amano shrimp and SAEs don't eat established BBA, are ridiculously overpriced, and die/are eaten easily.


That has not been my experience, for the most part. Recently I left off my co2 for 2 weeks and returned to a tank with bba growing on wood, gravel and some anubias leaves. I fished out one of 2 sae's from another tank and put him in the bba tank. Two days later, I couldn't find any bba. Like Niko says, if you put them into a situation where the bba is overwhelming, they may not be able to take care of it. But I fully believe that they will keep it under control before it becomes visible to us.

As far as Tom's water, I'm sure he will chime in here, but I can tell you he lived in Gainesville, Fl for a couple of years (also my home), and all our water comes from limestone aquifers. I can also take you to numerous fresh water springs around here flowing out of limestone caves and show you lots of healthy plants growing without bba.



> I wonder if the addition of driftwood releases tannins that interfere with the KH/pH/CO2 measurement/relationship and therefore we actually get lower CO2 levels than we think we have?


I have heard others comment in a similar vein to this. I tend to regard my co2 numbers as underestimates, if anything. I do also have fair amounts of wood in my tanks.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

TWood said:


> Sorry to have to say it Tom, but I think this is terrible advice.


I think I've got more BBA issues solved than the average bear.

You'll note I did not suggest *only* this solution with Shrimp and SAE's.
CO2 was the main focus and is always the case with BBA as my advice on BBA goes back 10+ years and I've been correct about it for 10 years as well................



> Amano shrimp and SAEs don't eat established BBA,


They will not hurt very well established BBA infestions, but they do prevent and can deal with mild ones. Correcting the environmental issues that induce BBA is the best method(poor CO2)



> are ridiculously overpriced,


That's why we give our shrimps away here The cherry's are quite breedable(so these are free) and several other folks here are giving away Amano's.
Group buys reduce the cost way down.

I trade weeds for shrimps and since I have a few tanks without fish, I have a large supply of live food for other non shrimp tanks(eg Altums). 
SAE's are cheap.



> and die/are eaten easily.


Depends on the tank and the livestock, I'll assume the poster knows not to put tiny critters in with big fish with big mouths.



> Been there, done that, never again. Also, regarding driftwood, why introduce a problem that requires more management instead of not introducing the problem to begin with?


Err........ because we like driftwood in our tanks and like ferns and moss and anubias growing all over it? I have no issues with wood and BBA........most folks can manage that issue with wood.



> It's my understanding that you are in San Fran where your primary water source is snowmelt. I think you need to work with other science types in other parts of the country/world with different water sources and see if some of your conclusions hold water. ;-/


Well, you just put your foot in your mouth.
I have one client in SF. The Bay area itself comprises over 6 completely different types and sources of tap water.

Marin where I lived for 15 years: high PO4, KH : 5, Gh 9.
SF: Almost RO like.
San Jose: KH 8, GH 12(depending, can go higher)
East Bay: KH 2, GH 1-3, PO4: 0.5ppm

We in sfbaaps/SFAS know our own water types and have discussed the differences for 15+ years now.

Next: I have lived elsewhere than the bay area, I lived in Santa Barabara for 2 years: GH 24, KH 12, PO4: zero.

Florida: 2 years: KH 3, GH 5, no PO4.

Sacramento CA: KH 2, GH 1 some times, KH 5, GH 8 others depending on the source/time of year.

APD past discussions ad nauseum comparing many folks tap waters and seeing how PO4 and other elements impacted their tank as well as the supposed notion of hard water soft preferences for plants.
I've been to dozens of aquarium societies and spoken to both Marine and Freshwater folks about plants. They tell me about their tap water and I ask. 
I'm not keen on the plants needing "soft" water Bs that was all the rage 10-40 years ago. LFS's would sell aquarist RO systems for all sorts of things that really did not help in many cases and none in terms of plants.

I'm hardly the "ivory tower" intellectual. 
This is practical long term experience going back to when I was kid.
No aquarist even considered RO in the 1970's.



> In particular, I think that those of us with water from the limestone aquifers just have a different chemistry at work that you are not taking into account.


Are you insane?
Florida is all Karst(limestone), I grew up and kept fish and plants in IN, the same place that quarried the stone that built the Empire state building which is limestone as well as most of IU campus where I ran around as kid.
I just got back from taking 10 folks down no less than 4 clear hard limestone springs at plant fest. Santa Barbara's water source is Lake Cachuma which is fed by the Satna Ynez river through extremely high mineral desposit that make Lake Tangy and Malawi look like soft water systems(GH's in the river were 800ppm+ beyond the Lamotte kit's range, Cl's also).



> I'd really like to see you work with other people in other parts of the country/world that have broad extremes of localized water parameters.


Well, you need but open thy eyeballs.
Bring your test kit and test all the folk's in the Bay area's tap.
We have a wide range, seasonal ranges.
We've been at that for many years/decades now.

It's not just me and I've asked folks these types fo questions for many years on many forums, mailing list and in person.



> You've also posted about green dust algae (GDA) being hard to maintain in your tanks.


Man Tom, you are just making this too easy.
I lived in Santa Barbara when I first had my fiorst run with it, the tap is KH 12, GH 24.

Limestone...........
Same deal..........

Softer water in FL(KH 3, Gh 5), same deal.............

Both times, same thing.

That was easy to rule out as a correlation as my "success".



> Many of us in the limestone aquifer areas of the country have the reverse experience. I think location is related to both the GDA and BBA issues and that you are missing that relationship unless you work with the water we are stuck with.


And you would be incorrect.
I have a very high success rate dealing with algae and helping folks. 
There is a reason and it's not the tap water except in 2 cases(out of many thousands, but we stil found out why it had issues and one case had distribution copper pipes all over the places, the other was using saline well water) which if the first set of advice does not work, we go to step 2 and so on in a step wise manner.

No single post can address every thing unless it's a book. Even then, experience play a huge role.



> I have a high respect for you and your work, but I think there's something about basic local water parameters that needs to taken into account.
> 
> TW


I do and have, I know very well what is and is not significant with respect to tap. Obviously...more than you know.

And I also know what applies to marine systems..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Laith said:


> I wonder if the addition of driftwood releases tannins that interfere with the KH/pH/CO2 measurement/relationship and therefore we actually get lower CO2 levels than we think we have?
> 
> This then induces BBA and you assume that its directly related to the wood?
> 
> Just a thought...


Perhaps some.

I see BBA, I add more CO2/stablize the CO2 etc, the BBA goes away.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

This is becoming a very interesting discussion.

Update on the tank status: The plants are pearling more than ever before. The fish are not dying anymore and they seem less stressed for oxygen. I have slowly raised the bubble rate even more now to 3bps and have a PH that starts around 6.57 when the lights come on hits a low of about 6.35 by the end of the day when the lights go out. So by the charts the C02 is from about 23ppm to about 40ppm. It's too early to tell on the BBA growth, but I think in time it will subside. I'll be trimming off the affected leaves again and removing as much of the stuff that I can again. I'll probably try another group of 4 SAE's since the last batch died and perhaps 50 more Amanos to add to the 12 or so that I already have in there-those stocking levels seem about right for a 120 gallon?. The cheapest I can find the Amanos are about $2 a piece. It will really add up so I'm trying to find an even better deal if anyone knows of one. As far as the SAE's I've never kept them in such acidic conditions before. The lowest PH ever being 6.7-6.8 Is it wise to put this fish in these acidic conditions?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I have not had any problems keeping SAE's in a PH of 6.0-6.5.

$2 ea seems to be a reasonable price for Amano's, although someone here may know where you can get them cheaper.


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

Well that's good to hear. I think the first batch died because of the low DO levels I suspect. Anyone know of any other fish besides SAE that is just as affective? Those Roseline sharks have caught my eye. They look like a colorfull versions of the SAE, but I don't know if they are as effective- anyone have any experience with these?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

magicmagni said:


> This is becoming a very interesting discussion.
> 
> Update on the tank status: The plants are pearling more than ever before. The fish are not dying anymore and they seem less stressed for oxygen. I have slowly raised the bubble rate even more now to 3bps and have a PH that starts around 6.57 when the lights come on hits a low of about 6.35 by the end of the day when the lights go out. So by the charts the C02 is from about 23ppm to about 40ppm. It's too early to tell on the BBA growth, but I think in time it will subside. I'll be trimming off the affected leaves again and removing as much of the stuff that I can again. I'll probably try another group of 4 SAE's since the last batch died and perhaps 50 more Amanos to add to the 12 or so that I already have in there-those stocking levels seem about right for a 120 gallon?. The cheapest I can find the Amanos are about $2 a piece. It will really add up so I'm trying to find an even better deal if anyone knows of one. As far as the SAE's I've never kept them in such acidic conditions before. The lowest PH ever being 6.7-6.8 Is it wise to put this fish in these acidic conditions?


Well, red cherry shrimps are traded for plants and they can be bred in our tanks, join SFBAAPS and you can reap such benefits.
So they are pretty much free for plant trades favors etc.

We are having an OH coming this next Sunday around 5-6 pm and then (July 31st) and then heading over to see the new ADA Aqua Forest store in Japan town.

You are welcomed to come. 
Mike got CaCl2, MgSO4 for his GH and 2 lbs of KH2PO4 for free, I got 6-8 cherry shrimps, other folks got a to of weeds, more will be had at the meeting.

We've kept SAE's at 6.0, KH of 1 no issues.
They are quite tough unless they do not have enough O2.

www.sfbaaps.com

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

I would just like to chime in here to say I have the same problems and in the same situation as magic.

I bassicly tore everything down. Changed the top layer of gravel, boiled and scrubbed my driftwood, trimmed off all leaves with bba on them. I then upped my co2 till my fish were gasping for air. Within a week the bba was comming back. I decided today to clean out my canister filter figuring alot of the bba spores where living in there. This was a bad mistake. I ended up releasing so much free floating gunk into my water cleaning the canister that within two hours green dust and bba and thread algae doubled in the tank. ](*,) 

Now it looks like I have to tear my tank down and clean everything again.
I've dealt with bba for a long time now. What I have figured out is bba loves nothing more then alot of free floating debree in your tank. Try your hardest to keep your water crystal clear, and do alot of smaller water changes rather then huge ones once or so a week. Try not to stur up too much crap when planting and stuff.


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## magicmagni (Aug 19, 2004)

All I can say Jay is that it's frustrating, but if you stick with it you'll get there eventually. As you read in my case the C02 wasn't really what I thought it was. Perhaps the same for you? If the plants are not pearling then maybe there is not enough C02? If fish seem stressed you can do what I did and put on some airbubbles. That and not running any Co2 at night seems to allow you to push the limits more- at least that's been my observation.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Are you insane?


Maybe, but what does that have to do with anything?

I'll concede that you have experience with a broader range of water sources than I assumed. But I still think there are local variations to be taken into account, and that longer experience with those sources will reveal their effects.

TW


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Not with BBA it doesn't.
It's CO2.

It's repeatable and you can induce it by doing that.

I was just like these folks 12 years ago with BBA.
Steve and about 3 other folks messed with limiting BBA, with NO3, PO4 etc, you cannot do it. Neil Frank was and perhaps is still obssessed with BBA after 15 years. I spent about 1 year being very annoyed.

Adding good CO2 took care of the BBA and has every single time is a dozen or more wide ranging tap water types. I've never had it since unless the CO2 dropped.

Every time is every case the results have been the same.

You can speculate all day long or you can test and do it critically and actually get somewhere rather than hit or miss guessing.

If you do not trust me, fine test it yourself. The test is repeatable and easy to see after a week or two. 

I did not trust other folks so I tested things myself back then and still do today.

BTW, I am insane.

Regards, 
Tom Barr
















Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Maybe.

We just moved from Austin to Kerrville, so I need to futz with things a while with this new water. In Austin, the water comes out of the tap at pH 10.0 but settles back to about 7.6 as it takes on CO2 from the atmosphere. A moderate CO2 bubble rate (one bubble/second/40 gallons) easily gets it to about 6.8. The Kerrville water stays above the chart (over pH 8.0) even with an aggressive CO2 bubble rate. If pH is the factor affecting BBA, then local water does have an effect. If it's total concentration of CO2, then maybe not, but I like my fish too. Seems like a lot of work to kill something that's easily avoided to begin with.

Also, your advice will be more helpful if you assume that the average planted tank keeper has only one show tank. No grow-out, breeding, or holding tanks, and no other science-guy equipment. Just one show tank where everything has to happen. Oh, and minimal futzing with the tank, like once a week with as little water changing as possible. But it has to look good.

TW


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

It is not hard at all to get pressurized CO2 over 30ppm with any decent reactor, regardless of ph, no work on our part.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

TWood said:


> Maybe.


Oh I assure you, I am insane.



> Also, your advice will be more helpful if you assume that the average planted tank keeper has only one show tank. No grow-out, breeding, or holding tanks, and no other science-guy equipment. Just one show tank where everything has to happen. Oh, and minimal futzing with the tank, like once a week with as little water changing as possible. But it has to look good.
> 
> TW


Well, then I suggest to that type of person non CO2 tanks which I'm very good at.

No water changes, pruning once a month, and they look good, unlike Diana Walstad's tanks, she's happy with them, I want a nice scape with eclectic plants.

I've achieved it.

No algae, no issues, no testing, easy maintenance, long term stability.
Nice looks.

Depends on what they want. The method etc is less important than the person's habits and goals.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

shalu said:


> It is not hard at all to get pressurized CO2 over 30ppm with any decent reactor, regardless of ph, no work on our part.


But Tom does have a point on less messing with things also. But I like to switch methods and go non CO2, or perhaps Excel dosing in some cases.


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## Sir_BlackhOle (Jan 25, 2004)

What about dealing with bba in a non co2 tank? What could cause it/how do you get rid of it?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Properly set up, you'll never get BBa in a non CO2 planted tank(I've set up over 30 tanks over the years, never once had BBA).

If you do not do the water changes, BBA also prefers CO2 like plants, this limits things for BBA as well in terms of CO2.

I've taken BBA infested plants,micro tennellus in this last case and added it to one of my non CO2 tanks. It took about 6 weeks, but all the BBA died off.

If you have an excessive fish load, low plant biomass, do not follow good set up protocol, you are going to have more problems.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Well, then I suggest to that type of person non CO2 tanks which I'm very good at.
> 
> No water changes, pruning once a month, and they look good, unlike Diana Walstad's tanks, she's happy with them, I want a nice scape with eclectic plants.


I don't care for Walstad's tanks either. I like a happy medium with 2WPG and a little CO2, test for PO4 and NO3 occasionally and 20% water changes once a week or so. That's low impact for me. But still, in that protocol the best way to avoid BBA is no driftwood. Dunno why, but it's consistent over time and across many setups.

TW


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

TWood said:


> I don't care for Walstad's tanks either. I like a happy medium with 2WPG and a little CO2, test for PO4 and NO3 occasionally and 20% water changes once a week or so. That's low impact for me. But still, in that protocol the best way to avoid BBA is no driftwood. Dunno why, but it's consistent over time and across many setups.
> 
> TW


TW,
I've changed my tanks to 2 WPG also and I'm wondering what level of CO2 you are using with your setup? Without the extra light do you think it makes much difference? I started out using Excel when I switched to 2 wpg but everything continued to grow so fast that I stopped using it and I'm surprised at the growth rate even still - especially with my Riccia which I thought might not even make it without high light and CO2.

Thanks, Bill


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

I currently have two non CO2 tanks, no BBA at all, actually little algae in general. One does not get much water change. I do weekly WC on the shrimp tank, but I guess algae does not have a chance in the shrimp tank.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

TWood said:


> I don't care for Walstad's tanks either. I like a happy medium with 2WPG and a little CO2, test for PO4 and NO3 occasionally and 20% water changes once a week or so. That's low impact for me. But still, in that protocol the best way to avoid BBA is no driftwood. Dunno why, but it's consistent over time and across many setups.
> 
> TW


Tom, I have extensive wood in my non CO2 tanks.
No algae at all.

My tanks are well scaped and stay that way.

My trimming methods are very different.

Also, the herbivore per critter is much more effective.
Why? Less light + 5-10x slower growth of the algae.
One shrimp is very effective in that case.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Tom, I have extensive wood in my non CO2 tanks.


I use CO2.

TW


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

stcyrwm said:


> TW,
> I've changed my tanks to 2 WPG also and I'm wondering what level of CO2 you are using with your setup?


I'm close to 1 bubble/second/40 gallons of water. I inject into the intake of a submersible pump. I don't know how that translates to a reactor type setup.

TW


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