# aquariumplants.com co2 regulator



## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

http://www.aquariumplants.com/AQUARIUMPLANTS_com_s_Co2_Regulator_The_BEST_p/co2-1.htm

Has anyone purchased this regulator and if so what do you think of it?
What do you think of it even if you haven't purchased one?

I ordered one but have not received it yet. Also bought a 10 pound aluminum tank, the prices seemed to be good and shipping very reasonable.

Thanks, Brian


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

You find that it works very well. Just follow the instructions on assembly and it will be fine. Did you get a controller?


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

I did not. I'm taking baby steps although the tank and regulator were a pretty big leap. A controller will probably be the next step.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

cool, watch your bubble counts, and your fish. A drop checker would be good if you don't have a controller.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Yeah, I had a thread going in "General Aquarium Plant Discussions" about drop checkers and decided that the maintenance I am saving going from ferment to pressurised would be used maintaining a drop checker. So I am going to start out real slow with the pressurised with regular ph checks until I get it set right.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I have it and I am not really happy with it. The low pressure gauge only goes to 15 psi. The directions say to set it at 10 psi. The bubble rate is inconsistant at that low setting. I had to hook it up to a pH controller to get decent control over it. The other day, for some crazy reason, the low pressure gauge maxed out at past 15 psi for some crazy reason. I adjusted it back up to ~ 11 psi. The next day, the gauge was reading 0 psi but it still had the same bubble count as with the setting of 11 psi. I don't know what's wrong with the low pressure gauge but anyway, it's still working. I'm glad that it has a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty.

Here's the post where some different regulators were mentioned. You'll find this same comment as well as others from me and other people: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/45321-considering-co2-would-work.html


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## jon_the_newb (Dec 30, 2006)

Sorry to hear abour your experiance with it Left C, you might consider returning it. I've only owned mine for a few months now, and I'm not doing steady injection yet (still working on the hardscape), but I've tested it twice (once to test plumbing, once to test controller), for a couple days each, and mine works fine.

Jon


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*

Thanks Jon. That's what I'm going to do. I had trouble with this one from day one. There's something wrong with it for sure with the low pressure gauge. I got it a month or so when they first came out with it.

I've got the get the guys at AP.com to answer the phone and find my receipt. Getting a real person is a problem at AP.com.

I just don't think running this regulator at 10 psi can produce a constant bubble rate. Many of the other regulators run from ~ 30 to 60 psi to produce a constant bubble rate. I think that it is a design flaw but I may be wrong.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

I also noticed the low range on the low pressure gauge but thought everyone was running 10 to 15 psi. Now I am hearing more and more about inconsistant bubble rates at that low of pressure. One of the other reasons I went with AP.com was I emailed them 2 questions about the regulator and the tank and got an immediate response, which gave me a good feeling about customer service. The 3 year bumper to bumper also made me feel good. I just checked my email before logging on to APC and they emailed me to tell me mine has been shipped and will arrive Wednesday. I hope yours is an isolated incident Left C and I hope they resolve it favorably. If you would keep us posted as to the level of customer service after the sale. Even though I can't wait to hook mine up and get it going, I might leave it in the box until I hear what happens. I would really be interested to hear what they have to say about the low pressure gauge's range and whether or not they feel the need to change this in the future. 
Thanks again for all of the input, Brian


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I build regulators on the same regulator body as the AP regulator. And lately I have seen a trend were the low side pressure needs to be a bit higher. I'm going to ask my supplier if something has changed in the regulator.

Other common problems that lead to inconsistent bubble rates are leaks.

I will also be transitioning to a different needle valve on the regulators I build. For just a few dollars more it's twice the needle valve.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks Rex, we will be looking forward to any information from the manufacturer on the regulator low flow problem. In the meantime I will be contacting you for a check valve. 
Thanks, Brian


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I should be able to talk to them tomorrow. Since beer people tend to run about the same pressure if there have been problems they should know.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



Left C said:


> Thanks Jon. That's what I'm going to do. I had trouble with this one from day one. There's something wrong with it for sure with the low pressure gauge. I got it a month or so when they first came out with it.
> 
> I've got the get the guys at AP.com to answer the phone and find my receipt. Getting a real person is a problem at AP.com.
> 
> I just don't think running this regulator at 10 psi can produce a constant bubble rate. Many of the other regulators run from ~ 30 to 60 psi to produce a constant bubble rate. I think that it is a design flaw but I may be wrong.


I meant to add that I ordered "The Best" on 6/5/06 and I recieved it on 6/13/06, if this helps by letting you know that it's 10 months old.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Talked to my supplier today and he has had no complaints on regulator bodies.

It could just be variances in the equipment.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks for checking Rex. Left C any luck contacting AP.com?


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## Tsquare (Feb 9, 2007)

I like AP.com but the only way I have been able to contact them consistently has been by phone.
I almost bought their regulator but decided to go with Rexs product.
Gene


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



ponyrandy said:


> ...Left C any luck contacting AP.com?


It's still working with 0 psi showing on the low pressure side. I might wait a bit before I send it back. If it craps out on me, I have a back-up.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Mine came in yesterday as promised. I just had to take it out of the box and play with it. It looks great, and at this point in the game I have nothing but praise for AP.com. They immediately returned my email with the answers to the questions I had before the sale, I received emails upon completion of the sale, when it was shipped and when it would arrive, and it arrived exactly when they said it would. It was all packed well also. 

If I should have low pressure or low pressure gauge problems, I might just change the low pressure gauge out myself to a 50 or 60 psi gauge. I will contact them first though because if more than one of us are having a problem its obvious a design change should be in order. Anyway I still have to get the tank filled and order a check valve from Rex so it will probably be late next week before I get mine up and running. If it runs as good as it looks it will be great. 
Brian


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Just an update. I got it up and running. Everything seems to be working fine with the exception of two little things I have noticed. First, after the co2 shuts off at night, the regulated pressure gauge ever so slowly will creep up in pressure. The longer you leave the solenoid off, the higher it has gone. Usually about 1 pound increase overnight and I had it off for about 3 days with an estimated 3 pound rise (estimated since the gauge doesn't go that high). Since it is a 15 pound gauge I have it set at 14 psi for now. After running for a little while it always goes back to 14 psi on its own. Second is the bubble rate is always slower when it turns on in the morning than what I had it set for the day before. I have never seen if this will self correct or not since my impatience has me reset the needle valve. Once the new wears off (maybe tomorrow) I will see if this self corrects. 
Brian


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## abnormalsanon (Jun 6, 2006)

I've had mine for about 9 months and I've had no problems whatsoever since I got it set up and at the right setting. It's on a timer and has performed consistently for 9 months. Set and forget.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

AquariumPlants.com hasn't answered the email letter that I sent them 9 days ago about my problem. Now, the solenoid will not cut off as well as the low pressure gauge isn't working.


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## BigB (Dec 1, 2006)

I just set mine up, and besides me being an idiot it works great! might just got a lemon.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Well the bubble rate seems to return to where I set it if I leave it alone. At this point I think mine is going to be ok.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I bought two cylinders and regulators from them. They take SOME fidgeting around with before you get a consistent bubble rate. Otherwise, they both work like a charm for me! 

Don't mean to "rub it in," or anything. It took about two weeks on my first one to get a consistent bubble rate, but I chalked that up to my own inexperience!  You'll get it! Promise!


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> I bought two cylinders and regulators from them. They take SOME fidgeting around with before you get a consistent bubble rate. Otherwise, they both work like a charm for me!
> 
> Don't mean to "rub it in," or anything. It took about two weeks on my first one to get a consistent bubble rate, but I chalked that up to my own inexperience!  You'll get it! Promise!


What do you have your regulator set at?


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Dude.....I'm at work! 

Actually, I found it easier to turn the main all the way in, and adjust the bubble rate using the needle valve on the "right." You may have to still "toy" with it a bit, but it does make it easier.

If you need more info, I'll have to write you back tomorrow when I'm at home. I hope this helps you, though!


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Dude.....I'm at work!
> 
> Actually, I found it easier to turn the main all the way in, and adjust the bubble rate using the needle valve on the "right." You may have to still "toy" with it a bit, but it does make it easier.
> 
> If you need more info, I'll have to write you back tomorrow when I'm at home. I hope this helps you, though!


If you have the low pressure adjustment all the way in then the low side pressure is around 30-60 psi depending on the regulator.

You are supposed to adjust the flow rate with the needle valve. That's what they are there for. Trying to adjust it any other way doesn't make sense at all.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Yes, Rex....I agree with you. However, the directions from Aquariumplants isn't very clear on that. Leaves you thinking that you are only supposed to turn the high pressure know enough to start getting bubbles in the counter. I had to learn from experience to turn the high pressure know all the way in, and use the needle valve to regulate the amount of CO2.....I'm thinking that he may be confused from the directions as I was.


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## ianmoede (Jan 17, 2005)

Temp swings can cause some variance in the PSI in your tank, though usually not in that particular stage of the regulator.



Left C said:


> I have it and I am not really happy with it. The low pressure gauge only goes to 15 psi. The directions say to set it at 10 psi. The bubble rate is inconsistant at that low setting. I had to hook it up to a pH controller to get decent control over it. The other day, for some crazy reason, the low pressure gauge maxed out at past 15 psi for some crazy reason. I adjusted it back up to ~ 11 psi. The next day, the gauge was reading 0 psi but it still had the same bubble count as with the setting of 11 psi. I don't know what's wrong with the low pressure gauge but anyway, it's still working. I'm glad that it has a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty.
> 
> Here's the post where some different regulators were mentioned. You'll find this same comment as well as others from me and other people: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/45321-considering-co2-would-work.html


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Pony--

How are you injecting the CO2 into your tank....?? Do you have the line directly in the tank, a diffuser, or some other way? You could be experiencing water creeping into your CO2 line at night when the solenoid shuts off, which could explain the varying flow rate of your CO2 from day to day, especially in the mornings as the CO2 has to build up enough pressure in the line to force the water back out. This can even happen WITH a check valve sometimes. You might want to see if you are experiencing that. Just a thought.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Pony--
> 
> How are you injecting the CO2 into your tank....?? Do you have the line directly in the tank, a diffuser, or some other way? You could be experiencing water creeping into your CO2 line at night when the solenoid shuts off, which could explain the varying flow rate of your CO2 from day to day, especially in the mornings as the CO2 has to build up enough pressure in the line to force the water back out. This can even happen WITH a check valve sometimes. You might want to see if you are experiencing that. Just a thought.


That's why it's best to keep CO2 ON 24/7. 15 to 20 ppm is more than adequate to grow healthy plants. A cheap needle valve will have difficulty pushing that small amount of water that's drawn into the CO2 line.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

To a point, fur, you are right.....that would eliminate the need to fidget once you got everything set up. Though, it is a waste of CO2 when the plants can't utilize it.....you end up running out of the CO2 gas in the cylinder twice as fast!  I know, I know.....it costs like $10 to refill a 10lb cylinder, but I'm cheap...and a naturally fidgety person.

Well, Fur......would you bother turning on an airstone at nighttime in his tank, or not?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

I run my Aquaclear 300 24/7. No powerhead or airstone. Use an efficient reactor if you want to save CO2. CO2 bubbles rising to the surface of the tank is a sign that you're wasting CO2. 

The CO2 level in my 50 gal is around 15 to 18 ppm. A 5 lb tank is good for 18 months. Refill is $6. $4 of CO2 per year is very reasonable. Even if you have soft water, the change in pH with 24/7 CO2 injection should be within +/-0.2 point if you don't overdose the tank with CO2.

I see no difference in the health of plants at 15 ppm vs 30 ppm. The higher CO2 concentration will require more plant food added to the water column and more work for the aquarist to prune the plants.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

furballi said:


> I run my Aquaclear 300 24/7. No powerhead or airstone. Use an efficient reactor if you want to save CO2. CO2 bubbles rising to the surface of the tank is a sign that you're wasting CO2.
> 
> The CO2 level in my 50 gal is around 15 to 18 ppm. A 5 lb tank is good for 18 months. Refill is $6. $4 of CO2 per year is very reasonable. Even if you have soft water, the change in pH with 24/7 CO2 injection should be within +/-0.2 point if you don't overdose the tank with CO2.
> 
> I see no difference in the health of plants at 15 ppm vs 30 ppm. The higher CO2 concentration will require more plant food added to the water column and more work for the aquarist to prune the plants.


Well said, I agree.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

ianmoede said:


> Temp swings can cause some variance in the PSI in your tank, though usually not in that particular stage of the regulator.


Thanks for your help, but temperature swings are not the problem. I've had it since June of last year or 11 months.

Some of my other posts about this regulator mention that the low pressure gauge isn't working and the soleniod will not cut off.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I just assembled the exact same regulator as aquariumplants.com, same parts to the T. I did go with
the same low pressure regulator and have had no problems yet. If you find trouble with the low pressure gauge its $9.00 to replace from. http://www.beveragefactory.com/. Its so easy to build these things.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Left C said:


> Thanks for your help, but temperature swings are not the problem. I've had it since June of last year or 11 months.
> 
> Some of my other posts about this regulator mention that the low pressure gauge isn't working and the soleniod will not cut off.


It's normal for the inlet pressure of the regulator to vary by +/-100 psig due to a change in room temperature. The outlet side of the regulator should remain steady at the preset pressure because the actual mass flow rate of the CO2 to the tank is VERY LOW. A cheap solenoid/needle valve can cause a lot of anomalies with the flow rate of CO2.

It's always best to drop the solenoid and stick with a quality needle valve. Any device added in series with the needle valve will introduce additional resistance to flow. A cheap needle valve will have a very difficult time overcoming those "resistive" devices.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Left C-- Just sounds like you have a lemon of a regulator then.

Furballi-- OK.....I understand your logic. I still am not going to do it!  I just worry about newbs that read stuff like you wrote and think, "OK....I'll just leave it on all the time." Then the next day, due to their inexperience, their water is like battery acid and everything is dead, and their are just super-angry. I know YOU know what you're doing, but would a newbie?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

orlando said:


> I just assembled the exact same regulator as aquariumplants.com, same parts to the T. I did go with
> the same low pressure regulator and have had no problems yet. If you find trouble with the low pressure gauge its $9.00 to replace from. http://www.beveragefactory.com/. Its so easy to build these things.


Here's one way to discover the ideal pressure setting for your particular setup.

Open the CO2 tank by one full turn. For best performance and stability, connect the needle valve to the regulator. DO NOT use a solenoid. Keep CO2 line as short as possible and introduce the CO2 within the first two inches of the water column. Attach a one-way stop valve near the aquarium to protect the needle valve and regulator from the water in the aquarium. Connect the CO2 line to the reactor/bubble counter. Back-off (all the way counter-clockwise) the nut on the regulator to shut-off the flow of CO2. Open the needle valve (100%). Let all the CO2 escape. Now slowly turn the nut on the regulator clockwise to pressurize the CO2 line. Stop when you see CO2 coming out at the reactor/bubble counter. Close the needle valve and add another 1/4 turn (clockwise) to the regulator's nut.

If you still have problem achieving acceptable CO2 flow rate, then you can add another 1/4 CW turn to the regulator's nut. Still having problem? You may need to replace the needle valve and/or the regulator.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Left C-- Just sounds like you have a lemon of a regulator then.
> 
> Furballi-- OK.....I understand your logic. I still am not going to do it!  I just worry about newbs that read stuff like you wrote and think, "OK....I'll just leave it on all the time." Then the next day, due to their inexperience, their water is like battery acid and everything is dead, and their are just super-angry. I know YOU know what you're doing, but would a newbie?


Noobs should stick to one 3 mm CO2 bubble per second. Again, even 10 to 15 ppm CO2 is sufficient to grow healthy plants. There is very little change in CO2 level with the light ON and with the light OFF. Yes, you'll save $ if you don't run CO2 24/7, but you're NOT going to kill fish because the CO2 is running 24/7.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



furballi said:


> It's normal for the inlet pressure of the regulator to vary by +/-100 psig due to a change in room temperature. The outlet side of the regulator should remain steady at the preset pressure because the actual mass flow rate of the CO2 to the tank is VERY LOW. A cheap solenoid/needle valve can cause a lot of anomalies with the flow rate of CO2.
> 
> It's always best to drop the solenoid and stick with a quality needle valve. Any device added in series with the needle valve will introduce additional resistance to flow. A cheap needle valve will have a very difficult time overcoming those "resistive" devices.


Thanks Furballi for all the info.

I understand how the pressure can vary because of the temp change. My high pressure gauge is working fine.

The low pressure gauge reads 0. When an adjustment is made in an attempt to raise the pressure; the blow-off valve comes into play and releases the excess pressure. The needle on the regulator doesn't move.

This regulator doesn't have a cheap needle valve. It's a very good one. It also came with a solenoid so that I can use it with a pH controller. It's stuck in the on position and runs 24/7.

This is the regulator that this thread is about. It's called "The Best" from AquariumPlants.com. It's not a 'cheapie': http://www.aquariumplants.com/AQUARIUMPLANTS_com_s_Co2_Regulator_The_BEST_p/co2-1.htm

Wow! The price is $30 more that what I paid for it last June.

I just got a "lemon" like DonaldmBoyer mentioned.

I'm very glad that it has a 3 year warranty.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I disagree with the advice to drop the solenoid. By putting the regulator on a timer you can save 50-66% of the CO2 use over a full manual system. And if you want to run a controller then you need to have a solenoid.

From my experience 90% of people want a solenoid.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Yes, Rex....I agree with you. However, the directions from Aquariumplants isn't very clear on that. Leaves you thinking that you are only supposed to turn the high pressure know enough to start getting bubbles in the counter. I had to learn from experience to turn the high pressure know all the way in, and use the needle valve to regulate the amount of CO2.....I'm thinking that he may be confused from the directions as I was.


Directions? What directions? Mine came with nothing.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Pony--
> 
> How are you injecting the CO2 into your tank....?? Do you have the line directly in the tank, a diffuser, or some other way? You could be experiencing water creeping into your CO2 line at night when the solenoid shuts off, which could explain the varying flow rate of your CO2 from day to day, especially in the mornings as the CO2 has to build up enough pressure in the line to force the water back out. This can even happen WITH a check valve sometimes. You might want to see if you are experiencing that. Just a thought.


I had a Red Sea ferment bottle with the diffuser pump inside the tank. I just left the pump in the tank and hooked the pressurised up to it. I think you are right though on the water creep in the line because I can see it in the line and after a little bit the bubble rate returns to normal. I did get a good brass check valve from Rex. The next step is to change from HOB filtration to cannister with an inline reactor.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Left C, still no answer from AP.com? I'm starting to worry about the 3 year bumper to bumper.


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

I purchased their regulator in January 2006. It's been running fine ever since, so that's 16 months. 

I had problems with my bubble counter leaking at first. I called and they suggested a few solutions on the phone, coached me thru them; it didn't work. I had a new one at my door within a weeks time. Both, when I started the system running - I called and reached a person on my first try. Then when I had a problem I also phoned and received immediate help.

My experience was they very patiently answered all my questions and assisted me when I reached them. They are in a different time zone than the east coast so don't call early in the am. I would phone if I had a problem and not wait to get an e-mail response. If you don't get thru on your first call, try again a half hour or hour later.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I buy stuff all the time from them, Ive never had such quality customer service from any other 
plant company ever. They will answer the phone and if they are in the warehouse they will call you back. Email is not so great but it works fine just not as fast. Ive had nothing but the best service from AP.com. Call them up


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> I disagree with the advice to drop the solenoid. By putting the regulator on a timer you can save 50-66% of the CO2 use over a full manual system. And if you want to run a controller then you need to have a solenoid.
> 
> From my experience 90% of people want a solenoid.


People want the solenoid because they were told by the "expert" that they need a solenoid. Let's look at the cost of CO2 since you are advertising a 66% savings. It cost me $4/year to inject my 50 gal tank with CO2. I would have saved $2.64/year if I used a solenoid to turn-off the CO2. Even with a big 100 gal tank, the annual savings is only $5.28.

Let's take a look at a rig with 24/7 CO2 injection. We all know that the pH only fluctuate *+/-0.2 point* max between daytime (light ON) and nightime (light OFF), regardless of your water's KH.

Now let's examine the case where a solenoid is used to turn ON CO2 during daytime. When the aquarist turn ON CO2 injection, the pH can drop 0.7 to 0.8 point if the tank has low KH water. That's a deviation of *+/-0.4 point*.

Maintaining a clean/stable environment is the key to healthy fish. Since you claim to be an expert aquarist, do you run your CO2 24/7?

Explain to me why anyone would need a controller to maintain a healthy tank (fish n plants)?

Vendors want you to buy solenoids and switches because these devices bring more profits. More gadgets translate to more failure modes. These gadgets will also add more serial resistances to the CO2 injection loop, regardless of the quality of the hardware! Higher serial resistance is bad because it requires a higher regulated pressure and a more accurate needle valve to meter the CO2.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



ponyrandy said:


> Directions? What directions? Mine came with nothing.


The directions that came with mine were somewhat obscure. But I've had other regulators and it wasn't a problem for me.

Basically the directions said to set the low pressure gauge at 10 psi and then adjust the needle valve as needed.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

ponyrandy said:


> Left C, still no answer from AP.com? I'm starting to worry about the 3 year bumper to bumper.


I've recieved no reply to my email and when I call them; the phone just rings and rings.

Bummer!:roll:


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



furballi said:


> People want the solenoid because they were told by the "expert" that they need a solenoid. Let's look at the cost of CO2 since you are advertising a 66% savings. It cost me $4/year to inject my 50 gal tank with CO2. I would have saved $2.64/year if I used a solenoid to turn-off the CO2. Even with a big 100 gal tank, the annual savings is only $5.28.
> 
> Let's take a look at a rig with 24/7 CO2 injection. We all know that the pH only fluctuate *+/-0.2 point* max between daytime (light ON) and nighttime (light OFF), regardless of your water's KH.
> 
> ...


My controller varies from +/- 0.2 pH. The CO2 isn't going into the tank 24/7. It shuts off when the lights are off and it rarely comes on when then lights are off. It really only runs the times during photosynthesis that it needs to be on. So, it's not even injecting CO2 constantly when the lights are on.

I keep my pH probes calibrated, replaced yearly and clean.

I agree that the costs of having a solenoid and pH controller verses not having them is some $, but the ease of mind is more important to me!

Furballi, you can run your systems any way that you want, but I know what works well for me.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



Left C said:


> My controller varies from +/- 0.2 pH. The CO2 isn't going into the tank 24/7. It shuts off when the lights are off and it rarely comes on when then lights are off. It really only runs the times during photosynthesis that it needs to be on. So, it's not even injecting CO2 constantly when the lights are on.
> 
> I keep my pH probes calibrated, replaced yearly and clean.
> 
> ...


I'm providing scientific data to open-minded aquarists. I don't know where you get your hardware, but it normally cost our chemistry lab $250/year to maintain one "calibrated" pH kit. That's about 1 hour use per day. I have yet to see a pH probe that can maintain decent accuracy for more than six months.

If a quality needle valve is set to dose at one bubble per second, then it will continue to dose at this rate until the tank's pressure goes to ZERO! Your logic about "ease" of mind is not based on any scientific theory.

Unless you spend several thousand dollars of equipments and dozens of man-hour per year, you're not going to be able to beat the stability of 24/7 CO2 injection.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



furballi said:


> I'm providing scientific data to open-minded aquarist. I don't know where you get your hardware, but it normally cost our chemistry lab $250/year to maintain one "calibrated" pH kit. That's about 1 hour use per day. I have yet to see a pH probe that can maintain decent accuracy for more than six months.


I'm a grad student in Bio-Tech. I use the drop checkers with a known KH solution of 4.5° in conjunction with each of my pH controllers and I make the necessary adjustments/changes/replacements as needed. I recently had to replace one of my pH probes.



furballi said:


> If a quality needle valve is set to dose at one bubble per second, then it will continue to dose at this rate until the tank's pressure goes to ZERO! Your logic about "ease" of mind is not based on any scientific theory.


It helped my ease of mind.

It's worrisome form many people that don't know how much CO2 is being provided. A drop checker will help with this problem.

What is done against "end of tank dump."



furballi said:


> Unless you spend several thousand dollars of equipments and dozens of man-hour per year, you're not going to be able to beat the stability of 24/7 CO2 injection.


This simply isn't true for planted aquarium use that uses a pH controller.

Our pH probes in the Bio-Tech department spend most of their time in KCl solutions and need to be replaced from time to time.

When they are needed to be be re-calibrated it's done before each test and they are compared against other pH meters to see if they are accurate.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

CO2 here is much more expensive. $18 to fill a 5 lb cylinder. If I can only use CO2 while the lights are on during a 10 hour photo period then I save a bunch of money vs running 24 hours a day.

Also due to the way some aquariums are setup you can overdose on CO2 by injecting CO2 during the time the plants are not using it.

A solenoid is rather inexpensive. With the number of tanks I feed with CO2 I can pay for them inside a year.


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## Tsquare (Feb 9, 2007)

Costs me $10 to fill a 2 1/2 lb tank. I run it on a 30 gal and use a solenoid on the light timer. I don't know for sure but read here that the tank will last about 6 months. That's $20/yr using the solenoid and $40/yr if I don't.
Gene


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: aquariumplants.com CO2 regulator*



Left C said:


> I'm a grad student in Bio-Tech. I use the drop checkers with a known KH solution of 4.5° in conjunction with each of my pH controllers and I make the necessary adjustments/changes/replacements as needed. I recently had to replace one of my pH probes.
> 
> It helped my ease of mind.
> 
> ...


Do you understand the physics behind those "end of tank" dumping complaints? So a pH controller cannot fail? What about the solenoid and the pH probe? There are at least 4 failure modes with your high-tech setup.

A basic regulator/needle valve has only one primary failure mode...a blown regulator body. There is no need to mess around with drop checkers, pH controller, pH probe, etc.... Dial in one bubble per second and you're done.

If you are curious about the CO2 level in the tank, then use the drop checker method once to dial-in the CO2 level to about 15 -20 ppm. Record the CO2 bubble rate at this level for future reference.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> CO2 here is much more expensive. $18 to fill a 5 lb cylinder. If I can only use CO2 while the lights are on during a 10 hour photo period then I save a bunch of money vs running 24 hours a day.
> 
> Also due to the way some aquariums are setup you can overdose on CO2 by injecting CO2 during the time the plants are not using it.
> 
> A solenoid is rather inexpensive. With the number of tanks I feed with CO2 I can pay for them inside a year.


Search around for a better source of CO2. I have friends throughout the US. The price can vary from $5 to $20 to fill a 5 lb tank. Those that are willing to do a little research will always be able to fill a 5 lb tank for less than $12. If I use your estimate of 66% savings, then we're looking at $8 savings max.

Provide me with a concrete example of how an individual can overdose CO2 with the light OFF. The only way this can happen is if the CO2 level with the light ON is already near the lethal level for fish (>80 ppm). By shutting off the light, normal plant respiration will add a few more ppm to the water column which may kill some fish.

My primary goal is to design a robust CO2 injection system with the absolute minimum of failure mode. Turning off the CO2 with a solenoid will surely cause more fluctuation in pH, and that cannot be good for the fish. An extra $8/year for CO2 is a bargain if my aquatic friends don't have to put up with the larger daily fluctuation in pH and CO2 level in the tank.

Now back to my other question. Are you running your CO2 24/7? Let's practice what we preach.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Tsquare said:


> Costs me $10 to fill a 2 1/2 lb tank. I run it on a 30 gal and use a solenoid on the light timer. I don't know for sure but read here that the tank will last about 6 months. That's $20/yr using the solenoid and $40/yr if I don't.
> Gene


A large portion of your cost is the labor to fill the tank. I suspect you'll only have to pay about $12 to $15 for a 5 lb tank. Get a larger 10 lb tank and a more efficient diffuser and you'll be able to amortize the additional cost in a few years.

Running CO2 24/7 also provides a more stable environment for the fish. By turning off the CO2, your water column will go from about 15 ppm to 3 ppm, then back to 15 ppm everyday. A tank with 24/7 injection will fluctuate between 15 ppm and 20 ppm over the same period.


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## Tsquare (Feb 9, 2007)

I would love to have a larger tank but don't have the space in my stand. My wife would skin me if I put it outside the stand as it's in the living room. I likely don't have that many years as I will be 75 tomorrow. At my age I try not to buy bananas that are too green.  
Gene


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Tsquare said:


> I would love to have a larger tank but don't have the space in my stand. My wife would skin me if I put it outside the stand as it's in the living room. I likely don't have that many years as I will be 75 tomorrow. At my age I try not to buy bananas that are too green.
> Gene


Happy BD! Everything is negotiable if you have the right currency.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Trust me. I live in Portland and we have what appear to be the HIGHEST CO2 costs in the US. I have three cylinders. 2X 5 lb and a 20 lb. 

$18 to fill the 5 lb cylinders and $33 to fill the 20 lb cylinder. 

If I want to drive 20 miles I can save $2 per cylinder. My truck gets 12 mpg. So a 40 mile round trip will save me nothing since I burn $11 worth of gas.

There have been many people who have minimized surface gas exchange and killed fish at night with CO2 injection. All it takes is no surface disturbance and a good coat of duckweed on the tank. And true it's not so much CO2 as lack of O2 but excess CO2 in the water does make it harder for the fish to rid their bodies of CO2.

And pH changes caused by CO2 DO NO HARM TO FISH. That's a basic point that you must understand about pH injection. If you assume the opposite then you are going to have problems.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> Trust me. I live in Portland and we have what appear to be the HIGHEST CO2 costs in the US. I have three cylinders. 2X 5 lb and a 20 lb.
> 
> $18 to fill the 5 lb cylinders and $33 to fill the 20 lb cylinder.
> 
> ...


The only way to achieve NO surface turbulence is to turn OFF the filter. Even without a filter, it is impossible for the CO2 level to rise from a nominal 15 to 20 ppm during the day to the lethal +100 ppm at night unless we are talking about a tank with less than 25 square inches of surface area. You're coming up with pie-in-the-sky scenario that don't exist in the real world.

If there's at least a one inch gap along the entire length of the tank for gas exchange, then there should not be any concern about a dead layer of CO2 gas build-up at the water surface.

To kill fish, the nominal CO2 level during the day must be already close to the lethal level. PERIOD! A judicious use of CO2 injection (10 to 30 ppm) CANNOT kill fish, with or without additional water movement.

So why are you refusing to answer my question about how you dose your tank at home? From your lack of response, can I say that you're running CO2 24/7? Do you practice what you preach?

As for the pH, you're saying that it's better to turn off the CO2 even though the CO2 level in the water column can range from 3 ppm to 15 ppm within 24 hour. I submit that it's better to run the CO2 24/7 to achieve a nominal CO2 range between 15 to 20 ppm during the same 24 hour period.

There is no proof that a change of +/-0.2 point is better than +/-0.4 point. However, if the aquarist can achieve +/-0.2 point will less equipment and personal effort, then it's well worth the extra few bucks of CO2. Fish keeping is one of the cheapest hobby. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish over a few dollars (amortized over one year).


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## BigB (Dec 1, 2006)

Furbali, by using a pH controller you save alot of co2, It will inject co2 into the tank until it gets to a certain point as you know. Then it shuts off until the pH rises above it. Meaning co2 obviously is being expelled through gas exchange at the surface or by plant use. Then it cuts on again when needed. 

Mine cuts on about once at night because co2 is expelled through the surface agitation. So it keeps a very stable pH in the tank. Plus will make my co2 last somewhere at or over a year! it is just as stable as running it 24/7 if not more stable. Plus it is easier for someone to set it and somewhat forget it. If you were to setup a co2 system for the first time on a tank then leave it be, you will have problems thats a no brainer.

I can even change the amount of PPM of co2 in the tank easily by just changing the pH setting on the controller, and by playing with the needle valve if needed. about 10seconds of work, as where as playing with a needle valve to get it just where i want it, can take a bit of trial and error.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Oh geez......here we go again!


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

BigB said:


> Furbali, by using a pH controller you save alot of co2, It will inject co2 into the tank until it gets to a certain point as you know. Then it shuts off until the pH rises above it. Meaning co2 obviously is being expelled through gas exchange at the surface or by plant use. Then it cuts on again when needed.
> 
> Mine cuts on about once at night because co2 is expelled through the surface agitation. So it keeps a very stable pH in the tank. Plus will make my co2 last somewhere at or over a year! it is just as stable as running it 24/7 if not more stable. Plus it is easier for someone to set it and somewhat forget it. If you were to setup a co2 system for the first time on a tank then leave it be, you will have problems thats a no brainer.
> 
> I can even change the amount of PPM of co2 in the tank easily by just changing the pH setting on the controller, and by playing with the needle valve if needed. about 10seconds of work, as where as playing with a needle valve to get it just where i want it, can take a bit of trial and error.


Why do automotive fuel injection computers have safe mode? So you can drive home if something fails. If your pH controller is stuck OPEN, then what would happen to your fish? Do you have that much faith in a $100 pH controller?

A no-brainer solution is to dial in the desired bubble rate and let the system run 24/7 until the tank's pressure goes to zero. No need to worry about pH proble, stuck solenoid, or any other electro-mechanical failure mode.

You obviously have a lot of faith in the pH controller. Without knowing the KH of your water at the time of the change, there is NO way you will know the actual concentration of CO2 in the water column. There is a direct relationship between the CO2 bubble rate and the concentration of CO2 in the water column. With 24/7 injection, you have *INSTANT VISUAL FEEDBACK* of the CO2 dosage!


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

There have been several people reporting fish kills at night due to CO2 on various forums. And you must not have read my post. I know several people who have managed to get their tanks to no surface turbulence. Add in a layer of duckweed and you get a water surface that is basically sealed.

I ran my tanks on 24/7 for several years. But then again I also run Bio-Wheel filters on the tanks so there is never any lack of O2.

I have switched all my tanks over to regulators with solenoids.

Since a CO2 system is NOT a one year investment for most people why amortize the cost over just one year? Why not take it over the life of the equipment?

And it does no harm to turn off the CO2. Once again. pH changes caused by CO2 or removal of CO2 do NO harm to fish. I cover the reasons for this at www.theplantedtankFAQ.com you should read it.

Many people run CO2 systems on timers that have a full point swing during the day/night cycle. The fish are healthy. Other people run their CO2 systems on a controller. I personally don't run controllers. But a controller will maintain a very stable pH, more so than injecting CO2 24/7 (based on a 10 hour photo period). Sure you need to calibrate the monitor every so often and replace the probe every 18 months or so. But this is not a big problem for most people.



> There is a direct relationship between the CO2 bubble rate and the concentration of CO2 in the water column.


And I will call total and complete bull**** on this statement.

What's my CO2 concentration if I'm running 1 bps?

What is it if I run 2 bps?

Based on a total of almost 20 total man years of running CO2 into aquariums I know better than to make a statement like that. On a tank with a HOB filter a ¼" difference in the water level can make a huge difference in how much CO2 you need to reach a specific CO2 level.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> There have been several people reporting fish kills at night due to CO2 on various forums. And you must not have read my post. I know several people who have managed to get their tanks to no surface turbulence. Add in a layer of duckweed and you get a water surface that is basically sealed.
> 
> I ran my tanks on 24/7 for several years. But then again I also run Bio-Wheel filters on the tanks so there is never any lack of O2.
> 
> ...


Have you attended physics? It is impossible for the CO2 level to go from 20 ppm to 100 ppm overnight simply because the plants are using oxygen and expelling CO2! Why? Same duckweed and same circulation during daytime. You are making a claim that normal plant respiration is the *sole* source of CO2 enrichment at night, resulting in a sharp rise in CO2 level (20 ppm to +100 ppm). Don't believe everything you read on the internet. There is always adequate gas exchange at the surface of the tank if the top is not sealed. Coming to a non-scientific conclusion based on internet posts is pure ignorant.

99.99% of these sudden death cases are caused by high concentration of CO2, not a lack of O2. The use of a bio-wheel is irrelevant if the tank is not overstocked. Again, a properly stocked tank should safely support fish 24/7 without resorting to pump/filter!

A CO2 injection rig designed for 24/7 operation is *cheaper* to build and *much more reliable/robust* than one with solenoid, pH controller, etc. The $ saved can be used to purchase a better needle valve (heart and soul of any CO2 injection rig) to accurately meter the amount of CO2 added to the tank. This 24/7 rig also provides a *more stable pH and CO2 level* in the water column. You continue to harp on pH. I never said that the larger fluctuation in pH will kill the fish.

Why put the fish through a full point swing in pH everyday when you can *spend less $* on a CO2 rig and still be able to significantly *reduce* the daily pH/CO2 level fluctuation? The only penalty is a few extra bucks of CO2 each year.

A controller can also malfunction and wipe out the fish. More calibration, more $ on pH probe. Gee, more reasons to KISS and stick with a quality needle valve and 24/7 injection.

Since you appear to have missed physics 101, I will attempt to clarify the words "direct".

DIRECT...if bubble rate goes up, then CO2 level goes up. It does not imply that doubling the bubble rate will necessarily double the CO2 concentration in the water column. There are many variables that can affect the rate of diffusion of gaseous CO2 into H2O.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

geez... i think someone should post a sticky on how to prevent thread hi-jacking.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

A Bio-Wheel filter provides a gas exchange area.

You have implied and possibly stated that pH swings stress fish. Stress is harm. And again. pH changes due to CO2 DO NOT AFFECT FISH. So why the concern about the swing?

Injecting CO2 24/7 in my experience actually leads to a fairly large pH swing also. Injecting CO2 for 14 hours while the plants are not using CO2 but producing CO2 will cause the pH to swing.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> A Bio-Wheel filter provides a gas exchange area.
> 
> You have implied and possibly stated that pH swings stress fish. Stress is harm. And again. pH changes due to CO2 DO NOT AFFECT FISH. So why the concern about the swing?
> 
> Injecting CO2 24/7 in my experience actually leads to a fairly large pH swing also. Injecting CO2 for 14 hours while the plants are not using CO2 but producing CO2 will cause the pH to swing.


With all other variables fixed, a larger daily pH swing would not be better for any fish, that's for sure. If the nominal CO2 level in the 24/7 injected tank is 15 ppm with the light ON, then the level will rise to about 20 ppm at night. The same tank without CO2 injection at night would see about 3 to 4 ppm. Your experience is not based on scientific data.

Want more proof? A few weeks ago, you slammed my post about the Fabco NV55 needle valve being vastly inferior to your Clippard needle valve. You claimed that your experience is what really matter, even when faced with the superior specs and workmanship of the Fabco NV55.

So why are you currently promoting the Fabco NV55 on your website? A good designer with years of experience should be able to identify a vastly superior product without a full-blown "test drive".

Someone once said that "imitation is the greatest form of flattery".


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

And as I told you I had tested the Fabco years ago. And the unit I tested was crap. I would now suspect that someone had gotten out of hand using it as a shut off valve. You convinced me to give them another try. They are a great needle valve. I will be buying them 25 at a time.

But you seem to be really hung up on the pH issue. And it's not an issue so I can't understand why you are so hung up on it. You claim that it's better for the fish to have a more stable pH. Yet you have in one way acknowledged that pH changes caused by CO2 do no harm to fish. But you still insist that a stable pH is better.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> And as I told you I had tested the Fabco years ago. And the unit I tested was crap. I would now suspect that someone had gotten out of hand using it as a shut off valve. You convinced me to give them another try. They are a great needle valve. I will be buying them 25 at a time.
> 
> But you seem to be really hung up on the pH issue. And it's not an issue so I can't understand why you are so hung up on it. You claim that it's better for the fish to have a more stable pH. Yet you have in one way acknowledged that pH changes caused by CO2 do no harm to fish. But you still insist that a stable pH is better.


Why are you still harping about pH? Re-read my posts (again several times). There are *many other advantages* to 24/7 injection. I never said that the larger pH fluctuation is lethal to fish. The goal of any experienced aquarist is to maintain a clean and stable water chemistry. In the case if 24/7 injection, we can accomplish this with less equipment and greater overall system reliability. If you want to split hair about the cost of CO2 injection, then I submit that you will have to pay an additional $3.94 annually in electricity to run the solenoid/timer unit (3 watts 24/7 at 15 cents per KWH).

An *experienced* designer would have zero problem identifying a quality needle valve by visual inspection. Any hardware can fail, right out of the box. If you paid $1500 for a Nikon digital SLR camera and the unit would take lousy picture, would you conclude that this line of camera is junk? Furthermore, one can often request a sample of the Fabco NV55 from the local distributor, free of charge. I would expect better judgment from an individual who claims to have may years of experience in this hobby.

Look at the posts in this forum about people with CO2 rig at 30 psig regulated pressure and still unable to achieve a stable bubble count. Virtually all of these problems will go away if a high quality needle valve is attached directly to the regulator. The inclusion of solenoid, pH controller, pH sensor, and other bells and whistles can only add more complexity to the simple task of metering the CO2 to the water column.

Anyone can build a great CO2 injection rig. Start out with a $40 beer regulator. Add a $20 Fabco NV55 needle valve. Miscellaneous brass connectors to attach the NV55 to the regulator will cost another $5. To prevent water from contaminating the needle valve and regulator, you'll also need a $5 one-way check valve. Final cost is $70. You'll save at least $50 with this DIY approach. The only tool required is a crescent wrench.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

This will be my last reply.

You bought up pH. And you have insinuated that pH swings cause stress to fish.

I merely refute that. But you continue to say that I'm the one harping about pH. You will not or can not admit that pH changes caused by CO2 cause the fish no harm. You say lethal. Can you even admit that pH changes caused by CO2 do no HARM to the fish.

As far as the fish is concerned the water chemistry is stable. The KH, GH and TDS remain the same when CO2 is injected. That's stable water chemistry. I have re-read your posts. 

The solenoid only runs 10 hours (length of the photo period). When the solenoid is powered down (by use of a timer or pH monitor) then it draws no power.

I would guess you would rather ride a unicycle than a bicycle. Only one wheel and tire. No brakes or gears to have problems with. 

So you are saying that if I send you something you can determine the quality by a mere visual inspection? Have you ever been married? Dated a woman?

The problems most people have on this forum are caused by very low quality equipment. Most any beer regulator is a better regulator than the Chinese all-in-ones come with. The Clippard needle valve is a much better needle valve. I have fixed many of these problem regulators by just adding a Clippard needle valve.

You must have some great shops where you live. I build a LOT of regulators. And the cost of the brass to attach a Fabco to a regulator is more than $5 for 99% of the people. I can get below that only because I buy a 100 pieces at a time.

The hose barbs alone for the needle valve and the Fabco are over $4 a pack. Then you have adapters from the regulator to the hose barb.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

ponyrandy said:


> Left C, still no answer from AP.com? I'm starting to worry about the 3 year bumper to bumper.


Hi

This info is for you, ponyrandy.

I finally got ahold of someone at AP.com. I'm going to send it back. They'll either fix it or they will probably send out a replacement.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks Left C, that makes me feel better about the warranty and customer service. Was there any discussion about the scale on the low pressure gauge? I'm running mine maxed out at 15 psi. and now that I quit messing with it everything seems to be ok.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

ponyrandy said:


> Thanks Left C, that makes me feel better about the warranty and customer service. Was there any discussion about the scale on the low pressure gauge? I'm running mine maxed out at 15 psi. and now that I quit messing with it everything seems to be ok.


The directions say to set the low pressure gauge to 10 psi. The low pressure gauge only reads from 0 to 15 psi as you know. I didn't ask them any specifics about the low pressure setting.

I removed it today and I put on my backup regulator. It is an Azoo model. It's low pressure gauge is preset from the factory at 40 psi.


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm just going to leave well enough alone since mine seems pretty stable right now. I do think I will email them and ask them to send the instructions for mine since I didn't get anything with it. Please keep us posted on how AP.com handled your situation.
Brian


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Ok


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