# Tank-bred Otocinclus?



## Michael

I love these fish, but I can't justify buying them because of the extremely high mortality rates during capture, importation, quarantine, shipping to the dealer, AND in my tank. Is there a source for captive reared fish in this genus? Are they any hardier than wild-caught specimens?

--Michael


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## JustLikeAPill

They are pretty cheap, and so buying double what you need isn't that big of a deal (especially with Petsmart's two week guarantee) but to my knowledge there isn't, although people see mating behavior all the time (myself included)


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## Michael

Cost is not the problem; I have ethical objections to killing so many fish just to have a few for my own enjoyment.


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## Jim Miller

There is a good "how to" for otos on Planetcatfish.com to minimize losses.

jim


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## spypet

Michael said:


> I have ethical objections to killing so many fish just to have a few for my own enjoyment.


I had a conversation with Franksaquarium about that, and he confided in me that importers suffer catastrophic loses on a wide variety of fish and invets. I can't confirm this, but I have a strong suspicion that affinis are already being captive bread, when you consider their low cost and year round affordablity. obviously newer breeds such as cocoma are still seasonal import dependent. there are many ethical concerns with this hobby, in terms of collection, import, distribution and resale housing conditions of specimens, not to mention selling them to idiots like us who only end up killing them  I suppose you can ease your ethical dilemma and stick with animals who's source you feel comfortable with. Frank is one of the more ethical importer/resellers; he won't deal with an exporter known for doing a poor shipping job, or a species suffering a particularly high mortality rate.

I debated recently with friends if the internet itself had hurt or helped the reduction of habitat as species were discovered and gathered for resale. Because of the internet more hobbyists can get a wider variety of species they would not have known of otherwise. however, the internet is also a place where captive breeders can exchange information needed to ultimately reduce native habitat encroachment. just as we discuss our tank keeping here, there is a whole other class of captive breeders who discuss commercial levels of breeding in secret to protect their methods from competitors. their motivation may be greed, not ethics, but the net result is less native encroachment, and less transportation and distribution fatalities over the longer term. so whether the internet has helped or hurt native habitats who's specimens become popular with hobbyists may be an negative and positive that balances itself out

One place worth watching for how these issues play out will be Cuba. Cuba is a goldmine of untapped freshwater biodiversity. it remains to be seen how well they will protect native habitats in the face of economic pressure to develop and export as that country slowly continues to open up to the World. Cuba's native population is very low for it's size, but with tourism and economic development, the effect on habitats would be like their population tripling within a decade - not great if you are some yet undiscovered fish trying to find clean food rich water to spawn.


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## Franco

You could figure out how to breed them consistently yourself and then provide a tank bred supply of otos both locally and to the folks online.


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## neilshieh

i've heard of some cases where they did breed. but so far its only been the affinis species which is the common otto... as much as people would like to breed zebra ottos, it is very hard to. they catch them in the wild but the huge netfulls. they also use chemicals to knock them out and then capture them so by the time they get to the us they're half dead. i personally only had about 3 ottos of the 10 i've bought over the years die on me. the key is gentle acclimation, enough food, and stable water params. but be warned, some will die regardless, i've had one that survived a week looking fine but then died for no reason while the other one was fine. the number one cause or death after successfully acclimating them to your tank is hunger. believe me, you'll know a fat otto when you see one. my otto looks like its pregnant and i never supplement anything... i actually rarely feed my tanks so i have no clue what my ottos are eating. i used to feed blanched veges and algae wafers but that led to overfeeding.


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## Franco

I told the guy at petco a while back that they should keep their otos in their planted tanks instead of the spotless tanks so they don't starve and because they have serious algae and diatom problems in there which make all of of the plants look like crap. He told me otos don't live very long anyways and that they want to keep fish out of the plant tanks even though the tanks are full of guppies. I told him he was an idiot and walked away. That was the second time I told that guy he was an idiot except I yelled at him a while the first time. I looked around in there a little bit today and his photo was on the wall under "associate in the spotlight". stupid petco

I've had probably half of the otos I have ever bought die on me within a couple days even with drip acclimation. My last oto that I had die was actually killed at the store when the guy flicked it in the head into the bag. They said it would recover and wouldn't give me another one until the next day. We don't ever see any of the fancy otos but if I did I'd probably buy them all up and dedicate a tank to them and try to breed them. I also don't put otos into a tank that doesn't already have a lot of algae so that they can fatten up quickly and not hopefully not starve to death.


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## spypet

I guess I should consider myself lucky.
the $1 affinis i get from a local LPS 
come with fin rot, but they survive.

Franco - maybe your tanks are hostile
to this fish - what are your parameters?
my tanks are geared for CRS breeding,
so they are soft, low-neutral ph, 74f,
low macros, low Co2, and ammonia free.


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## neilshieh

i actually dislike petco, petsmart is a lot better in my area. petco does have some interesting stuff though, but i bet they never change the water or do any maintenance.


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## THHNguyen

Just don't buy crappy looking otos and they won't die on you... I seriously have had only 1 out of the last 10 I've bought die within a couple months of purchase. The key is to buy from smaller stores and don't get fish in and out fast. Buy them after they've been in the tanks for a couple weeks. Sure some will die but they won't be the ones you buy. I honestly can't think of a single source that claims to sell home-bred otos. You not buying wild-caught otos won't really change much. The market is huge and countless will die. This is the case with most fish. I'm sure that even with captive bred fish (ones from asia and such) experience high mortality rates in transit as well.


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## Franco

My tanks are fine. Its the fact that all of our fish shops, walmarts, and pet stores don't know crap about taking care of fish and sell sick and starving otos. I have a theory that even the ones available around here that look like they have full bellies, probably actually have an internal bacterial infection or something. Its just luck of the draw in our area whether anything you buy survives or not. The LFSs around here are more geared towards saltwater and corals so they don't think that anything freshwater could be any harder to care for than throwing the fish in a tank of tap water and feeding them flakes.


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## THHNguyen

Yes that is correct. The ones with the round bellies are often just bloated...it's not necessarily a sign of good health. Look for the ones with reasonable looking bellies and good fins. They often times have very frayed or worn down fins when I see them available.


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## neilshieh

yes good fins is what i typically go for. i actually saw a bunch with really good fins at petco which surprised me... but then again they have hella algae.


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## mfgann

Wow. I've only had one oto out of six die, and that is probably because I was raising the salinity due to a disease running through the tank (or the disease itself may have killed it). Mine are from Petsmart, which is a very good establishment here. Petco is another story. Bleh.

Also, James0816 has bred and raised otos (common) if I'm not mistaken. I think he likes trying to breed difficult/impossible things


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## Michael

mfgann said:


> Also, James0816 has bred and raised otos (common) if I'm not mistaken. I think he likes trying to breed difficult/impossible things


Now that is useful information! Has anyone purchased otos from him? What was the survival rate? I will probably be setting up a new tank in the spring, and would like some otos for it.

--Michael


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## joshvito

Pit Bull Plecos are a good alternative.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/cotm/cotm.php?article_id=164


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## neilshieh

^ not really... they're good for cleaning and sometimes even eat GSA! but they are EXTREMELY SHY and come out only at night.


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## THHNguyen

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/123248-fs-bakers-dozen-shrimp-otocinclus-catfish.html

Here is what you're looking for...


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## Michael

Thanks!


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## sdm

Michael said:


> Now that is useful information! Has anyone purchased otos from him? What was the survival rate? I will probably be setting up a new tank in the spring, and would like some otos for it.
> 
> --Michael


I have, but I picked them up (no shipping). Survival has been 100% and the fish were in great shape. If you do end up dealing with him, you won't be disappointed.


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## Bettatail

grabed 8 oto from petsmart two weeks ago($1 sale, took all at the time), couple of them had ich developed after but now ich gone.
and 5 (again, what they had at the time)more from petsmart last Saturday, total 13, all doing well in my tank. If there is no causulty in the next two weeks, the survival rate is 100%


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## ralphsparker

They are cheap, so buy a pair you need is not a big deal (especially Pet Smart's guarantee of two weeks), but as far as I know not, but people see the mating behavior, all the time.


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## James0816

Not sure how I missed this posting originally for so long.

Yes, I have been breeding O. Vittatus for over 1 1/2 years now. It's been a fun experience so far and only looking to continue it.

It is just horrible the conditions that they are kept in and I consider just "business" as to the reason why. And then for people to buy a group of 10 to only expect 50% to survive is just unheard of. I'm sure hoping that our efforts help reduce this drastically.


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## Michael

Hi James, Thanks for joining the discussion--we exchanged private emails late last month, and I look forward to getting some fish from you in a few months. I will try to stock the new tank exclusively with hobbyist-reared fish.

Could you describe your breeding set-up and water parameters?

--Michael


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## James0816

Sure thing. My breeders for the most part are heavily planted 10g tanks. 

I have one exception to this and it is a 20long where I have been holding the juvies. The thing with this tank is that they have come of age and have started breeding in here as well.

Typical parms are as follows:

pH: 7.4
NO3: 20
GH: 4
KH: 4

(GH and KH will fluctutate from time to time with DIY CO2 injection)

Photo period is 10hrs.


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## Michael

My pH is only a little higher than yours, but hardness is significantly higher, in the range of 8-10 (150-160 ppm).

What sex ratio do you have in your 10 gallon tanks? I have a heavily planted 10 full of Endler's, which are beginning to bore me a little. . .


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## Jim Miller

What water temp are you using?

Thanks

Jim


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## James0816

Michael said:


> What sex ratio do you have in your 10 gallon tanks?


For the most part, it is a 1 to 2 ratio, male to female. Now over in the holding tank...who knows as its just that...a holding tank. I have a group of zebra's but they turned out to be all male. I'll be getting some more in come spring time. The O. Macrospilus tank currently is a 1/1 but getting ready to add another female.



Jim Miller said:


> What water temp are you using?


Temps will range from 76-78. On the lower side right now with winter temps.


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