# I think i found the Cure for GDA



## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=374505&highlight=

GDA was keep on coming back and i have to clean the glass everyday, at Tom's Recommendation i added 14 bushy nose Pleco, they did help control the algae little bit but glass would be covered with GDA everyday. most of the bushy nose died one by one due to CO2 while other fishes were fine, i think BN are very sensitive to CO2, now i only have 4-5 left. during all these experiment i was Dosing EI and i have also noticed that adding more KNO3 made the GDA worse.

now let me explain why GDA Occur, i know what am about to say would cause debate and there will be a disagreement but you have to try it yourself before questioning. i also discovered low PH water is Prone to GDA when using EI dosing, why? because when using KNO3, Bacteria have to convert NO3 back to NH4 for the plants, plants are normally covered with Bacteria who convert this, but in low PH water Bacteria aren't very active. this might explain why some people have problem when dosing EI and using very low PH. now on the other side EI worked very well in high PH water, keep in mind high PH water is beneficial for Bacteria and they are most active under these conditions.

if you mix methods you get GDA, it explains why i was getting GDA while dosing my own recipe, because i already had tons of fert in the water to begin with, i suppose to do many water changes before i started dosing my recipe. let me explain it better, if you are dosing EI and then switch to Seachem while you already have tons of nutrients in the water, you are likely to get GDA.

i do not get GDA after making the following changes:

Phosphate does not cause GDA, i now add 1ppm of PO4 3x week while using my own recipe which adds 1ppm NO3 and 0.7ppm of NH4 per day. i think having low NO3 might be the main reason GDA stooped and it had nothing to do with PO4. now plants are growing much better and GDA is slowly becoming dark black and falling off the plants, rocks etc. keep in mind my PH is very low and KH is 0. am now using more light than before and GDA hasn't returned yet, this will clear your doubt about who think GDA is caused by high light.

i think too much KNO3 was the real cause of GDA under lower PH tanks. i can Confirm PO4 was not the cause because i still dose the same amount 1ppm 3x week.

Try it before you disagree, it might take 2-3 weeks but you will get your answer after making those changes.

*looks like we have EI defender here as well, this was the whole reason my thread did not go so well at the tpt. people came to conclusion without even trying the method, i think its better to ignore those people. i think you have to come with open mind and try the method first and then come to conclusion. *

here is a good example coming to conclusion without trying the method:
one person say i dose NH4 and got green water and killed my fishes, the other said he had completely opposite results using NH4. when someone say i got algae issue After dosing EI, people come to conclusion oh you are not dosing enough or you don't have enough co2. there are tons of examples but am not going to write them all.

if you say hey you dose EI and you don't get any GDA, in that case let me also show you a picture and video of tank that shows NH4 doesn't cause any algae, now i can prove what EI claim or what Tom Barr claimed regarding NH4. EI claim you don't get any algae long as you have good CO2 and flow, they claim NH4 cause Algae and NH4 is bad for Fish and only Bloom Algae. the only thing i was able to bloom in my tank was plants, plant grew 3x faster than EI. i never killed any fish while i was dosing NH4 and killed many fishes when i was dosing EI, it would reach 40ppm and plant wont do anything. i was not going to criticize EI but we have too many EI Fan boys here that made me write this.

*i think its better for EI defenders to stay out of it and let those come by who actually have problem with GDA. 
*


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I've read your thread. What was your "Cure"?


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

BruceF said:


> I've read your thread. What was your "Cure"?


if you did not see the cure, you did not read the thread.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I can see why you get arguments.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

BruceF said:


> I can see why you get arguments.


nope that is not the case, the argument was for different reason. but asking question so how you cure the gda? i think i have explained everything there, anyone asking the same question simply isn't reading what i have written.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Whenever one tries to use their tank as a control there we always be disagreement since it's not a good benchmark for anything. There are so many different variables in each person's tank that has an effect on algae, growth, etc. 

Personally I have very soft water and dose very high EI and have never had GDA.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Whenever one tries to use their tank as a control there we always be disagreement since it's not a good benchmark for anything. There are so many different variables in each person's tank that has an effect on algae, growth, etc.
> 
> Personally I have very soft water and dose very high EI and have never had GDA.


do you have 0 kh ? most likely not. does your ph go below 5.0? most likely not. it doesnt matter what tank it is, algae require same things as plants.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

happi said:


> do you have 0 kh ? most likely not. does your ph go below 5.0? most likely not. it doesnt matter what tank it is, algae require same things as plants.


Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to "I think I found the Cure for GDA*

*Water must be 0 kh, ph below 5 and you must have the same lighting, organic load, lifestyle as me. "


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Ummzz... I don't do EI anymore but I can tell you that while this might work with your tank, it is not a golden rule. I know people having 100ppm of NO3. GDA no! So by simple stating GDA is caused by high NO3 it has been proven hundreds of times it is not true. I do believe it works in your tank, don't get me wrong. But this does not make it true for every tank. Unless you can reproduce with high KH, it might be that you're limiting the nitrogen for the GDA. 

In my tank whenever I had GDA I dosed more magnesium. My tap water is high in calcium and low in magnesium. Balancing this stops GDA in a day. Does it work in every tank, I don't know. But until I find 30 others who are willing to try adding magnesium and cure it, you won't hear me saying I found the cure. (I'm at 4 now, worked for 3, slowed it down for the 4th but didn't cured it).


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to "I think I found the Cure for GDA*
> 
> *Water must be 0 kh, ph below 5 and you must have the same lighting, organic load, lifestyle as me. "


these were my water parameter, you dont need same parameter to have gda, read my thread on when dosing EI and importance of bacteria and PH. you can still have soft water and use EI with no issue.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

Yo-han said:


> Ummzz... I don't do EI anymore but I can tell you that while this might work with your tank, it is not a golden rule. I know people having 100ppm of NO3. GDA no! So by simple stating GDA is caused by high NO3 it has been proven hundreds of times it is not true. I do believe it works in your tank, don't get me wrong. But this does not make it true for every tank. Unless you can reproduce with high KH, it might be that you're limiting the nitrogen for the GDA.
> 
> In my tank whenever I had GDA I dosed more magnesium. My tap water is high in calcium and low in magnesium. Balancing this stops GDA in a day. Does it work in every tank, I don't know. But until I find 30 others who are willing to try adding magnesium and cure it, you won't hear me saying I found the cure. (I'm at 4 now, worked for 3, slowed it down for the 4th but didn't cured it).


i have never said high NO3 was the direct cause. i have said why it was the cause, read again. i have done the Mg stuff too, it helps but doesnt cure the GDA.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

happi said:


> i have never said high NO3 was the direct cause. i have said why it was the cause, read again. i have done the Mg stuff too, it helps but doesnt cure the GDA.


Yes you did: Happi: "*i think too much KNO3 was the real cause of GDA under lower PH tanks."*


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

Yo-han said:


> Yes you did: Happi: "*i think too much KNO3 was the real cause of GDA under lower PH tanks."*


did you miss the part when i said under low PH? i did not apply it to high PH or did i? bacteria not being much active when PH is low which convert NO3 for plants. what do you get when NO3 doesn't convert for plants, it just sit there for GDA. the way i said it does sound like i said too much NO3 is the cause, but now look at it and it would make more sense. 99% of the people don't use 0 KH, i use it and it have no effect on fish or plants, no bad effect on plants when you use mixture of NO3/NH4/Urea for Nitrogen source, NO3 alone in very acidic water was the main reason for GDA in my case.

i had 40ppm of NO3 and was cleaning the glass everyday, i completely cut it to 1ppm per day or less and dosed Urea and GDA started to become black/dark and started dying very quickly. the point is when your PH is very acidic bacteria cannot work hard enough to convert NO3 for plants.

did you know why ADA dose brighty K?
did you know why their starting PH is 6.8 ?
did you know why they dose less on N and P ?
did you know why they use NH4 in their fert?


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

You still haven't given a method. Why don't you try and state what the actual method is.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

BruceF said:


> You still haven't given a method. Why don't you try and state what the actual method is.


the method is already there.

what are your water parameter? if you have acidic water getting GDA and dosing EI, check your NO3, it is most likely high, switch to TPN or Seachem or use homemade fert which contain NH4/Urea and some NO3. do no dose more than 1 ppm of No3 when using this mixture. make sure you do 2-3 50-70% water changes before starting to dose. this will make sure you have no excess nutrients to begin with.

the method was already in my thread;

*Quote

i do not get GDA after making the following changes:
Phosphate does not cause GDA, i now add 1ppm of PO4 3x week while using my own recipe which adds 1ppm NO3 and 0.7ppm of NH4 per day. i think having low NO3 might be the main reason GDA stooped and it had nothing to do with PO4. now plants are growing much better and GDA is slowly becoming dark black and falling off the plants, rocks etc. keep in mind my PH is very low and KH is 0. am now using more light than before and GDA hasn't returned yet, this will clear your doubt about who think GDA is caused by high light.*

i suggest dosing half of the dose, i dose full amount because i have fast growing stems and very high lights, 4x39 watts TEK over 48 Gallon ADA.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

But what is causing it? The NO3 itself? Why? What is the mechanism? You can't simple state NO3 is causing GDA, because this should make no difference between high or low pH.

_Happi: because when using KNO3, Bacteria have to convert NO3 back to NH4 for the plants, plants are normally covered with Bacteria who convert this, but in low PH water Bacteria aren't very active.
_Bacteria that convert NO3 to NH4 only live in anaerobe circumstances. Plants are not covered in these bacteria, perhaps deep in the substrate in their roots but not in the oxygen rich water column. I've they were our tanks would have loads of NH4 and no NO3 (with high pH as you stated off course).
I'll help you a little bit, it is more likely that NH4 is not converted into NO2 and NO3 in low pH so this way a NH4 build up might happen. Or one of the thousand of other organic compounds are not broken down and this causes GDA.

Next you need to rule out that you are not NO3 limiting and this way are masking the real problem. This is almost impossible in a tank.

_Happi: this might explain why some people have problem when dosing EI and using very low PH.
_I think this is the reason why so many people question your statement. Basically you miss a step here. It doesn't explain anything IMO. Plants can still use the NO3 instead of the NH4 (assuming plants are covered in these anaerobe bacteria as you stated). What I read here is: *NO3 is not converted to NH4 in low pH, so the NO3 is causing GDA*. Am I right?

Please clearify some of your statements/our questions instead of just keep saying it is all in there...


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

Yo-han said:


> But what is causing it? The NO3 itself? Why? What is the mechanism? You can't simple state NO3 is causing GDA, because this should make no difference between high or low pH.
> 
> _Happi: because when using KNO3, Bacteria have to convert NO3 back to NH4 for the plants, plants are normally covered with Bacteria who convert this, but in low PH water Bacteria aren't very active.
> _Bacteria that convert NO3 to NH4 only live in anaerobe circumstances. Plants are not covered in these bacteria, perhaps deep in the substrate in their roots but not in the oxygen rich water column. I've they were our tanks would have loads of NH4 and no NO3 (with high pH as you stated off course).
> ...


there is nothing left to clarify to you. seems like you are not understanding it, my answer will be the same. i have already said why it occur when you have acidic water and NO3 is high. you can never limit plants from Nitrogen when you are dosing the proper dosing. dosing KNO3 in higher amount isn't the best approach in acidic water.

so you really think there is no difference if ph is low or high? so it have no effect on uptake of nutrients and bacteria? i guess you got lot to learn then.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

As you (and I) said, I don't get it. I thank you for your patience for explaning it to us again and will not bother you again!


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

Yo-han i apologizes for being Blunt and i think we should hear from those who actually have GDA problem. that's the only way we will find out the truth.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

i don't have 100% proof, but i will show you some graph which shows why algae occur under certain conditions.

Ei dosing work very well under some conditions but not under all conditions, it works well where ever there is a good bacteria colony which can convert NO3. when i had a hard water with high PH there was no GDA, if i remember correctly i never ever got GDA. but under 0 Kh and low ph starting at 6.0 and it goes lower with co2, GDA was the main battle and i was dosing EI. my NO3 levels was 40+ ppm and it did not help the plants but GDA was growing like weed, it would come back after couple of hours after cleaning the glass. simply after doing many water changes and switching to Urea/NO3 mix plant started to grow and GDA started to turn black, i was only dosing 1 ppm of NO3 daily and sometime even less, i focused more on Urea. now let me explain why Urea worked better, Urea is difficult for algae to use, they can still use it but it becomes difficult for them to use it. the reason behind this is due to the Amide form. Amide form bond NH2 after you mix the solution of NO3/Urea together, plant can easily use this and Algae have hard time using it. this is the reason Seachem, ADA, TPN+ etc use these form of fert. 
but you have to be careful not to overdose on NH4, it boost the plants growth but it can also boost the Algae growth, but i will explain why it does not cause algae unless overdosed.

i suggest reading these links:

http://www.google.com/translate?hl=...com/amania/Chapters/Tech/liqfert-n_p.html#no3

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/8/1423.full.pdf

now lets talk about algae, look at all the graphs and notice as the days pass by Algae growth increases. now if you look you will notice Urea can increase some of the Algae growth very fast compare to other N sources, also notice NH4 and NO3, they can all increase the algae growth. now this is when it gets tricky, did you notice how many days it takes for All of those N sources to start causing Algae? some started within 0-5 days and see how the growth increased as days pass by. things to note and remember, Urea and NH4 cannot stay in fully planted tank for longer than couple of hours, but NO3 can stay in water for couple of days or most of the time. NH4 is quickly consumed compare to NO3.

how can i tell if you are overdosing Urea/NH4, you will get Cyno and some of it growing on the Plants, this is a sign of overdosing of NH4/Urea. also plant doesnt require help from bacteria when they are fed by Urea/NH4. plant waste tons their energy converting no3, now you know why bacteria play an important role when using NO3.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Without having read this post fully due to time, I just want to point out that bacteria don't convert NO3 back to NH4 for plants. Bacteria eat NH4 and make NO2 and then other bacteria eat the NO2 and make NO3 as the final most oxidized product.

I'll come back later and read through the thread and comment on main ideas later.

Subscribed.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

As zapins and yo-Han have pointed out, most bacteria in the aquarium don't convert no3 to nh4, except for those anaerobic types. Aerobic bacteria which lives in your filter and grows on plants converts nh4 into no2, and different aerobic bacteria convert no2 to no3. In a healthy cycled aquarium, this process should be fairly quick, so wouldn't that be the reason for nh4 'disappearing' in under two hours? In a tank with no plants and no ferts, fish still add ammonia to the water through their waste, but if there is any detectable amount, the aquarium will not be too successful. Even the urea that you add should be converted to another form pretty quickly by the aerobic bacteria that converts the fish waste.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

am just going with whatever i was told, they said bacteria grown on top of the plant leave and they reduce the NO3 to NH4, this is why i said bacteria isn't much active in very acidic water.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Still haven't had time to read the whole thread yet - I'll get to it tonight. 

However, I want to correct what you have been told. There are no bacteria in our tanks that regularly convert NO3 to NH4. The reason bacteria convert NH4 to NO2 and later to NO3 is because they are using the ammonium to power their energy needs. They use it as food. If you remember back to chemistry you'll know that oxidation is loss of electrons and/or hydrogen ions. So from NH4 to NO2 you are losing electrons and hydrogen ions, these can be used later on in the bacteria to make energy that is used to fuel its every day tasks. The same thing happens when you convert NO2 to NO3, electrons are given off and can be used to fuel the bacteria.

If you convert NO3 to NH4 you need to put in electrons and Hydrogen, which must come from somewhere. So you'd be losing energy not gaining it as a food source. This means that there is no reason a bacteria would or could convert NO3 to NH4 on plant leaves, because it would need to get energy from somewhere else in order to convert it. What happens to NO3 in fact is other bacteria convert it to N2 which is the nitrogen gas found in the atmosphere. Again this is a loss of electrons, which drives the process. 

Plants take up and use NO3 by putting in energy to convert it back to NH4. The NH4 is used directly to make amino acids which are later used to make proteins, used in the chlorophyll and other parts of the plant. This makes sense because plants can make their own energy using sunlight, so they have an energy surplus which they can use to add electrons and H back in to NO3 to get NH4. They need to do this or they cannot make the chlorophyll proteins they need to make more energy! 

So just to reiterate, bacteria 100% do not convert NO3 ---> NH4 for plants. Plants do that for themselves using the energy they gathered from sunlight.

I'll read over your cure for GDA later and post my thoughts.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Still haven't had time to read the whole thread yet - I'll get to it tonight.
> 
> However, I want to correct what you have been told. There are no bacteria in our tanks that regularly convert NO3 to NH4. The reason bacteria convert NH4 to NO2 and later to NO3 is because they are using the ammonium to power their energy needs. They use it as food. If you remember back to chemistry you'll know that oxidation is loss of electrons and/or hydrogen ions. So from NH4 to NO2 you are losing electrons and hydrogen ions, these can be used later on in the bacteria to make energy that is used to fuel its every day tasks. The same thing happens when you convert NO2 to NO3, electrons are given off and can be used to fuel the bacteria.
> 
> ...


whatever you have said is 100% true, i guess i was given wrong info and used it. even if NO3 has nothing to do with bacteria, i find it to cause GDA in my very soft water tank for some reason. for now you can ignore the Bacteria part and look at the other factors which might be causing the issue. not sure why NO3 level were so high in my soft water tank compare to hard water tanks.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Alright.

Below is a link to a German website that, if you care, will tell you more than you will ever find on any US planted tank forum. There is another version of this site and I will post it if I can find it. On one of the two websites the guy talks about flow through the filter and how important it is. Namely that certain flow rates (slow) can actually lead to the biofilter RELEASING ammonia. I could be dead wrong or Happi here can be spot on about NO3 turning into NH3/4. Try to find what's the truth if you care/can.

If your head starts to hurt from reading this German site through whatever pathetic amazing translator you use and you stop feeling super smart about planted tanks you can go back to discussing dumping fertilizers in the water, how miraculous that "easy and cheap" practice is, and how nobody's head ever hurt from it. You will feel smart again, guaranteed.

http://www.deters-ing.de/Gastbeitraege/Gastbeitraege.htm

In case you are reading this and don't realize it - you just got presented with real, reliable information. No commercial interests, no egos, no pretense. Something you may not experience again on the internet. Book freaking mark it! Who knows - you may even read it some day.

There is more from where that came from. Maybe one sunny day I will post more links to even more information. For now try to ignore my tone and try to hear what I'm saying. That's the smart thing to do.


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## OTPT (Sep 27, 2010)

happi said:


> whatever you have said is 100% true, i guess i was given wrong info and used it. even if NO3 has nothing to do with bacteria, i find it to cause GDA in my very soft water tank for some reason. for now you can ignore the Bacteria part and look at the other factors which might be causing the issue. not sure why NO3 level were so high in my soft water tank compare to hard water tanks.


Molybdenum?

"Molybdenum availability to plants is thus poorest on acid soils and is improved by liming, provided the soil is not inherently deficient in molybdenum."

"Molybdenum is an essential component of two major enzymes in plants, nitrogenase and nitrate reductase. Nitrate reductase is the most well-studied molybdenum-containing enzyme. It catalyzes the reduction of NO3- to NO2-."

http://www.albionplantnutrition.com/news/68-molybdenum-in-plant-nutrition


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

OTPT said:


> Molybdenum?
> 
> "Molybdenum availability to plants is thus poorest on acid soils and is improved by liming, provided the soil is not inherently deficient in molybdenum."
> 
> ...


Way better explanation!

Below is a list of the optimum pH for plants to use the given element:
N : 6-7,5 
P : 6,5-7.5 en >9 
K : > 6 
S : >6 
C : >6,5 
Mg : >6.7. 
Fe : < 6 
Mn : <7 
B : 5-7 en >9 
Cu : 5-7 
Zn : 5-7 
Mo : >7

Molybdenum has indeed the highest preferred pH, so is most likely to be deficient with a low pH.

@niko: great find again! Will read it when I've spare time. Had 5 years of German lessons on middle school so let's see what I remember;P

About the release of NH4 of a filter with slow flow. This would probably be due to low oxygen supply as I mentioned before about the anaerobic bacteria, but like I said, I haven't read the site yet.


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## happi (Jul 15, 2013)

did anyone read those link and came up with any conclusion?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Very interesting list, where does it come from?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yo-han said:


> ...About the release of NH4 of a filter with slow flow. This would probably be due to low oxygen supply as I mentioned before about the anaerobic bacteria, but like I said, I haven't read the site yet.


Most geniuses in this hobby don't care much about the biofilter. It is not popular to talk about filtration. Whatever I say one thing is true - this community does not have an established way to setup or maintain the biofilter.

So besides the wrong biofilter setup there are bad maintenance practices. Some people take care of the biofilter. Most do not. Guess if low Oxygen has a role in many of the wonderful issues people keep posting about.

And since this thread is about GDA - one thing is true about it: There are tanks that do not develop GDA. So it is possible to achieve that intentionally IF we knew what is what at least a little bit. Making the plants grow like crazy and not leave algae a chance by using strong light and excessive fertilization would be the way but it is not. GDA is widely considered "normal". So tanks that do not develop GDA must be "abnormal". Look how this thread is being interpreted. It is not the coolest thing under the sun because Happi here speaks against we all like to take for truth.


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