# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Nutrient Deficiency- Rotala Macarandra + Others- Pictures



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Hello I have a severe nutrient deficiency with Rotala Macarandra. Can anyone identify what it is?

In addition to this I think I have a nutrient deficiency with my anubias and crypts...not sure what kind? let me know if you can identify them...

*TANK SPECS* 
Temp- 26 c
Filtration- Ehiem 2217
Lighting- 324 watts= 3.24 wpg FL (1/2 tubes @ 5000k, other ½ tubes @ 6500k)
Weekly Water Change- 50%
Tank Size- 72" x 18" x 18"- 378liters (100 gal)

*Chemistry* 
Ph 6.6- 7.0
GH- 6
KH- 9
Nitrate- 5ppm
Phosphate- .25mg/l
Co2- 25- 30ppm

Fertilization
PMDD- Tom Bar Based 
Adding after waterchange
1 1/4 teaspoons of KNO3
2.5 teaspoons of K2S04
4 Rice grains of KH2P04 
20ml Traces * (see below pics, a recent change)
25ml YATES Chelated IRON

*Pictures of Deficiency's * 













































I have Recently added the following to help fix the problem...I hope,
Sachem Traces
Duplarit K- Substrate Laterite balls (2 boxes in 100 gal (380 liters))


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Hello I have a severe nutrient deficiency with Rotala Macarandra. Can anyone identify what it is?

In addition to this I think I have a nutrient deficiency with my anubias and crypts...not sure what kind? let me know if you can identify them...

*TANK SPECS* 
Temp- 26 c
Filtration- Ehiem 2217
Lighting- 324 watts= 3.24 wpg FL (1/2 tubes @ 5000k, other ½ tubes @ 6500k)
Weekly Water Change- 50%
Tank Size- 72" x 18" x 18"- 378liters (100 gal)

*Chemistry* 
Ph 6.6- 7.0
GH- 6
KH- 9
Nitrate- 5ppm
Phosphate- .25mg/l
Co2- 25- 30ppm

Fertilization
PMDD- Tom Bar Based 
Adding after waterchange
1 1/4 teaspoons of KNO3
2.5 teaspoons of K2S04
4 Rice grains of KH2P04 
20ml Traces * (see below pics, a recent change)
25ml YATES Chelated IRON

*Pictures of Deficiency's * 













































I have Recently added the following to help fix the problem...I hope,
Sachem Traces
Duplarit K- Substrate Laterite balls (2 boxes in 100 gal (380 liters))


----------



## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

I don't know a lot about bigger tanks, but isn't that a lot of light for a 100 gallon?


----------



## geKo (Jun 25, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by IUnknown:
> I don't know to much about bigger tank, but isn't that a lot of light for a ten gallon?


Tank Size- 72" x 18" x 18"- 378liters (100 gal)


----------



## Brand (Jun 29, 2004)

What's your Ca:Mg ratio? Looks like it might be Mg deficiency judging from pics of anubias and crypts...


----------



## imported_Poe835 (Oct 20, 2003)

My Alternanthera reineckii shows the exact same symtom and I have no idea what is causing it since all other plants in my aquarium are doing well. Do you have any pleco's in your tank? The only thing I can think of is my pleco is doing damage to the leaves, but that's just a guess.


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

*Brand* - My GH (General Hardness) is 6-7 dGH...about 107.4 to 125.3ppm. I would have though that this would mean that there is sufficient calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+)iron concentrations disolved in the water...though I could be wrong. The Ratio? I am not sure, I am just adding 'blue' non branded hardness crystalls into the water- does this greatly differ.

I have some magnesium sulphate dry powder that I have not yet tried using, should I be adding this? I was worried about my GH increasing too much as some plant like Rotala Macarandra like soft water I think.

*Poe835* I have no plecos in my tank. The ew growth of the Rotala Macarandra seems to be improving a little after I began adding Sechem Trace elements and increased my iron level a little.

*IUnknown* I don't think My lighting @ 3.24wpg is to extreme for what I am trying to grow ie. liliaeopsis and rotala macarandra- both are likely to grow even better under more light. I have tried to grow these in less at 2wpg and they died


----------



## fishfry (Apr 15, 2004)

For me iron and traces have been key to growing R. macrandra. I add 4.5 mL of Kent Iron to my 20 gallon tank every 2 days, I also add 2 mL of Seachem Flourish every two days...but look at my macrandra...if it were me I would try upping the iron

Good luck! it can be a gorgeous plant and is well worth the effort to grow it

http://home.comcast.net/~victor.fisher/aquarium/rotalamacrandrasuperred.jpg


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

*Fishfry* Thanks heaps...your R.Macrandra looks beautiful!, I will give it a try,
For 100 gallons I will add 22.5ml of iron and 10ml of Sachem Traces every 2 days and see how this goes.


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by MADMAX:
> _Brand_ - My GH (General Hardness) is 6-7 dGH...about 107.4 to 125.3ppm. I would have though that this would mean that there is sufficient calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+)iron concentrations disolved in the water...though I could be wrong. The Ratio?


If you have 6-7 dGh in your tap water then the that's likely to be enough of both calcium and magnesium.



> quote:
> 
> I am not sure, I am just adding 'blue' non branded hardness crystalls into the water- does this greatly differ.


I have no idea what sort of thing 'blue' non=branded hardness crystalls are. If your water supply is very soft and the crystals add nothing to your tank but calcium, then you can have a magnesium shortage.

What is your water supply like?



> quote:
> 
> I have some magnesium sulphate dry powder that I have not yet tried using, should I be adding this? I was worried about my GH increasing too much as some plant like Rotala Macarandra like soft water I think.


Find out what is in the blue hardness crystals first.

Roger Miller


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks for your reply Roger,

My Tap water is extremely soft- I measured it and it is 1 dGH. 

As for the blue non-branded hardness crystalls I will contact my LFS to find out what the magnesium and calcium content is.

BTW I have one question...Would a GH ratio of 90% magnesium and 10% calcium give the same reading as a GH ratio of 90% calcium and 10% magnesium? What I am getting at is, do GH test kits measure the sum of these 2 elements present in the water regardless of differing ratio's of these elements.


----------



## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> What I am getting at is, do GH test kits measure the sum of these 2 elements present in the water regardless of differing ratio's of these elements.


I think so. lamotte's kit measures total hardness. They sell a kit that measures just Ca so that you can figure out the ratio.


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> BTW I have one question...Would a GH ratio of 90% magnesium and 10% calcium give the same reading as a GH ratio of 90% calcium and 10% magnesium? What I am getting at is, do GH test kits measure the sum of these 2 elements present in the water regardless of differing ratio's of these elements.


The kit can't tell the difference between magnesium and calcium.

It will be interesting to hear what your hardness crystals are. I'm suspicious that they may be dyed epson's salt -- just magnesium sulfate. Calcium chloride is the only commonly available and readily soluble calcium salt and it doesn't usually come in crystals.

Roger Miller


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks Roger,
Well after making a trip to my LFS- unfortunately for me, they had no idea what is in the 'blue crystals'...quite annoying as I have a 5kg bag of them. 

I guess that I will stop dosing with the crystals. I have some magnesium sulphate and can easily source some calcium chloride. Are these the only necessary elements I need to make D.I.Y water harness increaser? What is the adequate ratio to use when mixing these? I am assuming that it is not 50/50.


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

calcium chloride diyhydrate will give you about 1 dGH/teaspoon/50 US gallons. Epson's salts will give you about 0.65 dGH/teaspoon/50 US gallons.

In terms of dGH, you probably want a mix of about 2:1 calcium to magnesium and you should get that by adding 1.3 tsp of calcium chloride for each teaspoon of magnesium sulfate.

You should be able to use those numbers to work out how much to add for the hardness you want.


Roger Miller


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

I went to my local hydroponcis store and they only had calcium nitrate?? and Calcium Chelate (CA EDTA). The concentration is 9.5% Calcium. The brand is Librel. I was given this for free as it was manufactured in Oct 96 (The bag was unopened and sealed in foil)!

My questions are:

Would this Calcium chelate be off? does calcium chelate have an expirary date as such?


is CA EDTA safe for increasing the hardnesss of the water?

What is EDTA (ethylenediamine tetraacetate)? 

If this is suitable...Is Ca EDTA more potent than adding stantard calcium chloride? ie should I add less of it?


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

EDTA is a strong chelating agent. Calcium bound to EDTA will almost certainly not be available to plants. Hardness kits work by adding EDTA to a water sample; the EDTA binds the calcium and magnesium into an unreactive state. If calcium is already bound to EDTA then it won't be read by the kit.

No wonder the shop had the stuff sitting around so long. You're better of looking longer for calcium chloride or maybe using dolomite to provide calcium, magnesium and KH.


Roger Miller


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks Roger for the informative answer. I will try and find calcium chloride.


----------



## imported_Poe835 (Oct 20, 2003)

Personally I doubt the symtoms are due to the Ca/Mg issue but it's good to sort out what that blue stuff is. My tap water has GH =1 but I use Seachem's equilibrium to bring it up to 4-5, and my A.reineckii still shows the same symtom. I believe it's more of the trace/iron issue so I'm upping my trace/iron dosing and let's see what happens.


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks Guys,
Growth is improving immensely. I dosed 22.5mlof iron (Yates chelate)out of my 500ml stock solution and 10ml of Sachem Trace elements at the water change. I then added a half dose of both these every 2 days over a period of a week. 
I may try upping these levels to a full dose... Heres a couple of pics. 

















[


----------



## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

So it's the iron - right?

MADMAX and FishFry - could you please calculate how much you add in ppm of iron to your tank?

I read somewhere that yates chelates are 12% iron but I have no idea what the concentration of the chelate in those 10 mL that you pour into.

Recommended level of iron is 0.1 ppm. I added up till now 0.03 ppm daily and from yesterday I add 0.06 ppm iron daily. I still am not satisfied with my macrandra look.

Fishfry - your macrandra is absolutely awesome - could you please tell what are the other water parameters? I mean GH, CO2 level, PH, light intensity and duration, nitrate, phosphate, temprature???

Aviel.


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Aviel Livay,
Please excuse the typo above(i have now editied)...I add 22.5ml of iron and 10ml of traces.
Ok...so the concentration of iron that I am adding is...hmm...can someone help me work it out? I mixed my stock solution according to someone elses recomendation.

Heres the details
Iron Chelate (Fe.EDTA) =12%
I add 2 tsp (10g) of Iron into my stock solution of 500ml
I add 22.5 ml out of my stock solution
The volume of my tank is 100gal (378litres)


----------



## imported_Poe835 (Oct 20, 2003)

ok, 500 ml of your stock has 10 g iron chelate. So 22.5 ml of your stock should have (22.5*10)/500 = 0.45 g of iron chelate. The chelate has 12% iron, so 0.45 g. chelate will contain 0.45*0.12 = 54 mg iron.
Your tank is 378l, so by adding 22.5 ml of your stock in, you're adding 54 mg iron/378l of water, which is 0.143 mg/l or 0.143 ppm. But then you're adding half of that every 2 days, so you're adding ~ 0.07 ppm every two days. I wonder what your iron level is now.


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanx heaps Poe835,
With the recomended iron level being in the 0.1ppm to 0.5ppm range (I think)...it seems that adding 0.143ppm of iron at a water change is well within that range...perhaps I can switch to upping the dosage to a full iron dose every 2 days...maybee I could increase this even further after some testing...I have a little algae on my lilaeopsis at the moment so I am cautious. I hope that I did have a calcium deficiency- so that perhaps the new calcium that I have added will increase the plants uptake of nutrients.

BTW...I too am curious as to what my actual iron level are according to the test kits- In time I must aim to find out how much iron the plants are using daily. I currently have a HAGEN iron test kit...though I am suspicious about the accuracy of these comparitively cheap test kits so I no longer bother testing for it...I have read about lots of problems. I guess I will fork out some dollars in the future for a Lamotte or Dupla iron, phosphate and nitrate kit..


----------



## imported_Poe835 (Oct 20, 2003)

MADMAX, I was wondering how things are going. Do you see nice, regular growth with your plants now? Some pics would be great. I don't seem to have much luck with my A. reineckii tho.


----------



## imported_MADMAX (Sep 4, 2003)

Poe835,
Growth is still improving, though still have some experimenting to do yet. I am trying to eliminate the algae thats growing on my anubias and Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (what a shame!)- I hope to be able to grow a lush green carpet of lialaeopsis as my foreground.

From adding the calcium I can see improvements in my swords, anubias, Ludwigia repens and especially in my Didiplis diandra- thats now gone from not growing at all to having bright green tops as seen in the pics.

Rotala macrandra
















Didiplis diandra


----------

