# Thinking of Starting El Nautral, Need Questions



## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

I've been planning to start an Aquarium for about a month now, and on my final leg of Research at the Aquarium Wiki stumbled on the El Natural set up. I took a liking to it, but i have Numerous questions that need answering before. But Firstly, the Tank I'm planning to get is a 30 Gallon tank. I plan to have it stocked with 5 Neon Tetras, 5 Red Tetras, 2 - 3 Guppies, and 2 - 3 Otos. I cant put the Tank in Direct Sunlight, but I can put it near a Window.

1) Does This method really make Filters not needed? This would save me money on a Good Filter. I can buy an Air pump to oxygenate the water for a little amount of money.

2) I've read that because of the Soil, the Tank is Instantly Cycled and fish can be added within days. Also will CO2 Canisters not be needed because of the fish?

3) Can i get some Suggestions on Plants for a Beginner such as myself? I would preferably like plants with lower light requirements. Also a suggestion for a good soil brand to use would be like.


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## zhanghanbing (May 25, 2011)

1. I recommend a filter. Otherwise I think you need to change water more frequently.
2. When I set up my tank. I first add some tap water conditioner from pet store for abt $3-4 then wait abt 3-4 days. Then and 2-3 hardy fish such as guppies to cycle the tank. After abt one week you can add other fish. No need for co2 if you there are no demanding plants such as HC/ dwarf baby tears.
3. I am currently growing dwarf hair grass and I think they are pretty easy to grow. you can also try some moss. I am using eco-complete as soil. I think it is pretty good.

Just my opinion. Please feel free to correct me if there is anything wrong.


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## zhanghanbing (May 25, 2011)

One more thing for the plants. Do not buy the plants sealed in a plastic container from petco/petsmart. They are not true aquatic plants and will die after abt 1-2 months.


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

where do you suggest i buy Plants? Or in what condition (other than in bags) Should i Get them?


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

Sorry to disagree but in an el natural tank you do not need a filter. The plants do a marvelous job of converting all of the ammonia into more plants, which are then removed from the tank by thinning/pruning. Once the tank is established, it can go many months with no water changes. But in the beginning, especially during the first month or so, large water changes may be necessary. A lot depends on the particular soil you used as well as the number, type and health of the plants you have. Floating plants are highly recommended, but do not let them choke off the top of the tank.

Actually, a great way to start is with a much smaller tank. See this link: http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf

With a small tank, you can find out what plants will thrive in your water, substrate can be cheaply changed if it isn't working, and you will greatly increase your chance of success with the larger tank.

If you haven't read Walstad's book, "Ecology of the planted Aquarium" you should. Your library may have it.

OK, your questions.

1. You don't want to run an airstone all of the time. You may need one on just at night if your fish are starved for oxygen in the morning. Air bubbles drive off needed CO2. A submersible powerhead to provide water movement is a good idea, especially in a larger tank. You may want to put a piece of foam over the intake to protect baby fish, but you really do not need a filter in a healthy el natural tank.

2. It is the plants that use the ammonia, not the soil. The soil just helps the plants. Get test kits for at least ammonia and nitrite. If either are measurable, perform water changes - daily if necessary - until they are not. This may also be a sign you do not have enough plants.

3. Miracle Grow Organic Choice is a commonly recommended brand. Open the bag and let the soil air out for a few days before using. Even better is to soak it in a bucket of water overnight, remove any floating material, drain and dry the rest, and then use it. If you can stand to wait a month or so, repeat the soak and dry part several times. See the thread on mineralized top soil. As for plants, throw in whatever you can find that is not exorbitantly expensive and see what grows. Worry about fancy designs later.

You will likely need a heater. Do not add fifteen fish all at once. Don't add otos to a fresh tank - they will starve. They need diatom algae on the hard surfaces so don't add them until you have that. Guppies need hard water. You can add crushed coral or oyster shell to the soil or to the sand or gravel cap if your tap water is not super hard. If your tanks gets no sunlight, you may need more light than your tank originally came with. Get a timer for the lights. Keep reading. There is a lot of good info in this forum.


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

Where to buy plants depends on where you live and what is available. Best is to find a local aquarium society and buy some trimmings from another member. Post a wanted ad on Craig's list. Try your local fish stores. My local petsmartcos have live plants in water, not sealed in tubes, most of which are aquatic plants. If you tell us what is available we may be able to make better recommendations.


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

Thanks for the lengthy reply! I Was actually doing research and was heavily leaning toward the Miracle-Gro. As for the filter, i was told on a different forum that a small sponge-filter would be good just to clean anything that the plants dont take care of. I Would like to start with a small tank, but I'm on a Budget and i'm actually getting the tank from a friend who's selling it to me for 60$, along with a bunch of other decorations, a stand, and a heater and lights.

As for the plants, I Cant really get them local, because the petco/mart around here sell most of the plants in tubes or some gel, which i've heard decrease the life of the plants. and every local fish store i've visited just plain sucks or is massively overpriced. I'm planning on Ordering online, and found a rather good deal from SweetAquatics.



> 1 Sword (Med or Potted)
> 
> 2 Potted Foreground (can be substituted for microsword portions)
> 
> ...


will this be enough plants for a 30 Gallon tank? The only thing the package does not have is flaoters, but they are not expensive. Do you have any more suggestions, or specific suggestions on the exact species of plants?

Thanks!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Ziggs, this assortment of plants seems reasonable for a 30 gallon. I would suggest some more fast growing bunch (stem) plants, and some floaters. These species are important in a new El Natural tank because they can quickly absorb any excess ammonia and nitrites that may come from the soil. Put them in even if you don't like them. When the tank is established you can take them out. 

One of the keys to success with El Natural is to plant heavily right from the start so that you have enough plants to do all the important things they do. What does "plant heavily" mean? When all the plants are in, you should not be able to see more than 25% to 30% of the substrate looking down from above the tank.

I generally agree with all of Vicky's suggestions. I think it is especially helpful to soak and drain the MGOC soil several times. This removes excess nutrients, and also removes tanins which can color the water. Tanins are not harmful, just annoying if you want clear, colorless water.

In thinking about a filter, let's list the things that filters do:

1. Mechanical filtration--this physically removes particles from the water. It's nice to have this on a new tank because there is always some stuff floating around after you set up. It's nice to get all of this out so the tank looks good, but it is not necessary.

2. Chemical filtration--this is where charcoal, zeolite, and other such things are used. The purpose of these is to do the things that plants do. If you have enough healthy plants, you don't need any of this.

3. Biological filtration--beneficial bacteria grow on the filter media and help to remove ammonia and nitrites. In a healthy tank, every object in the water is part of the biofilter (substrates, plants, decor, glass) because every surface is eventually covered by these bacteria. What a filter does is provide an especially good home for the good bacteria. Biological filtration duplicates the work of the plants, so an aquarium full of healthy plants and reasonable numbers of fish probably doesn't need an artificial biofilter. But it can be an important safe guard if something happens and the rest of the system isn't working at its best.

4. Water circulation and flow--this may be the most important function of many filters, even if many aquarists don't realize it. Flow distributes oxygen, carbon dioxide, and nutrients to the entire tank, and has many other beneficial effects. Flow can come from an airstone, or from a powerhead as Vicky recommends. (A powerhead is just a submersible pump that circulates the water.)

How much flow do you need? Conventional wisdom says 3 to 5 times the volume of the tank each hour. Newer thinking says 10 times the volume of the tank each hour. For your 30 gallon, that would be a range of 100 gallons per hour on the low end, up to 300 gallons per hour on the high end. Personally, I think you need the high number. Whether it comes from a filter or a powerhead does not matter.

Last thought--don't worry if some of the plants you buy die. Not every plant, even the easy ones, will grow in every tank. This is just part of the learning process that makes this hobby interesting!

Good luck!


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

Great advice/suggestions, I Will definitly keep all of that in mind! But one last major question, what type of Floaters should i get? I was thinking maybe Hornwort and or Riccia. Also would Water Wisteria and a Anacharis be good? this is of course, in addition to the plants i previously listed.


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

I have frogbit, water wisteria, salvinia, hornwort, water sprite, and several types of hygrophila. Duckweed works great but is difficult to control unless you have goldfish - and then you will likely have no plants left at all. Giant duckweed is better but harder to find. Even if you want duckweed, don't pay for it. Odds are it will hitchhike in with something else and you will be fighting it anyway.

Shoot, what am I thinking! Go to the sale of trade forum here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/

You may well get a better deal on larger, healthier plants from a fellow member. Check it out before you order online.


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

Heres a list of my final list of plants. 

1 Amazon Sword, 
2 Microswords
1 Anbuias Bareteri
2 Water Wisteria
1 Anacharis
5 Jungle Vallisernia
1 Aponogeton Capuronii
2 Cryptocoryne Crispatula
1 Cryptocoryne Walkeri
2 Java Fern
1 Hornwort
1 Riccia


I Hope this would be a good plant setup. But i'll check out the trade forum first. Any Comments/Criticism of the plant list would be appreciated. Thanks Everybody! Been a real great help.


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

Like Michael said, not every plant will grow in every tank. But that looks like a good start. In case you don't know, the anubias and the java fern should be tied/glued to rocks/wood - not planted in the substrate. Well, anubias roots can be in the substrate, but make sure the rhizome is above it or it will rot. Expect the sword to get huge - give it lots of room as it will make a big mess to move it later. 

Take it slow with the fish and you should be fine. Keep posting and post pics when you can.


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

Didn't know about the Java/Anubias. I have a few decorations im going to throw in the tank, I could probably tie them to the decorations. But i will definitly post pictures up when i start building the tank. thanks again!


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

I've got most of the materials, and i have the Miracle-Gro sitting in a bucket of water indefinitely until the plants i ordered arrived. However, i've read that most people use calcium fertilizers, namely crushed corals. Where in particular could i purchase them?


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

Crushed coral is sold in places selling aquarium supplies - especially salt water. If you can't find that, try a farm supply and get crushed oyster shell sold for poultry. 

While you are waiting, skim off the floaters in that bucket of miracle grow, drain off the water, and spread it out on a tarp or something to dry. Just keep it safe from cats. ;-) We want to remove ammonia, not add more.


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

the Miracle-gro has been sitting in a bucket with water for the past couple days, i've been draining the water over time, and letting the hot weather evaporate the rest. I'm going to see if i have anything to lay out the dirt like you suggested.

But i'm encountering another problem, thats in regards to my Water Ph levels. I tested the Tapwater and some well water that waters my grass. Using the API Master test kit, The Wellwater had a Ph of about 7.0, and the Tap water a huge 8.8+! However I left both in a cup to see if the levels would go down and left them overnight. The Tapwater went down to about an 8.4, however the Well water seemed to have increased in P. After 8 hours was about 7.6, but overnight, the solution in the test tube became a dark blue, and so was new water from the cup that i had tested. The High range showed a clear brownish color, so I'm unable to distinguish exactly (7.6 - 8.0). Is there any reason this could be happening?


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

Sure. Municipal water is often treated with something to raise the pH of the water as acidic water can damage the pipes as well as the people who drink the then contaminated water. PH in both well and municipal water will change due to the concentration of CO2 it contains. Perhaps your well water was high in CO2 that outgassed overnight, while your tap water was low in CO2 but absorbed some from the air. Anyway, it's possible. Maybe someone else has a better explanation.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Vicky is right. pH varies with the amount of CO2 in the water.

Remember that the soil in your tank will tend to lower the pH, and make it more stable. I'll bet that if you set up the tank, plant it, and let it sit with filter running for several days, your pH will be in the neighborhood of 7.5 or lower.

Most if not all the plants on your list can easily live with this.


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## Ziggs180 (May 31, 2011)

I'm currently running a test to see which water will have the lowest Ph after a few days, i've tried Well Water and a Mix of Well Water and Tap Water to see which one will be the lowest. I'd like to have my Water as close to 7.0 as possible, as i've heard that most fish i will be getting thrive near those conditions. 

But anyho, its reassuring to see that the soil and plants will lower the Ph. So far my highest reading with well water is about 7.6ish, how far would it go down? I Will probably start a journal once the Plants come in and i start setting up the tank. I have a Castle aquarium piece that im going to put in, since it has plenty of caves for fish to go into and hide. I plan to tie the Java fern/Anubias to the castle, seeing as i dont have any Bogwood to tie it to.


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