# My 15 Gal NPT - Dry start journal



## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Hey people,

Will start this little journal here as it will probably be more interesting for the Natural keepers... inspiration came from both Diana's thread here on APC and Tom Barr's thread on TPT. 

Tank is:

- 15 gal (24" x 12" x 12")
- Soil substrate (yard soil)
- Sand + fine gravel topping
- 34W T8 lights (2x 17W Daylight 6,500K tubes). Timed 10 hrs/day.
- I gave an Aquaclear 200 and a Hagen Mini elite that i could use for filter (if i use any at all)

I've had this little tank around for over 10 yrs. but for some reason I had the glass cover for it. It was housing some african cichlids that i moved to a larger tank while i work stuff out for them. So, i removed everything, but left some mulm on the bottom and some old water (enough to saturate the substrate)..... 

Dropped some rocks in (move over Amano ) before adding the soils, and then planted a little:
- Echinodorus tenellus
- Hydrocotyle verticillata
- Eleocharis acicularis

I am misting daily with a weak water & hydroponic fert solution (NPK + micros). Will give it about 6 weeks to spread... then flood and add the rest of the plants. 

Already have DHG growing well in my 200 Gal Natural... but i didnt dry start that one, so it may be a while til its fully spread. Good thing is i'll have lots of plants when flooding this little fella.

Don't know what fish i'll put in....... either a nice Betta or a school of something.

Here's some pics:


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Currently looks like a Japanese Zen garden with those rocks  Will you have some stem plants in there too? The Barr’s technique works well with non-stem plants. Is there other way to speed up their growth other than the conventional way in deep water and forced CO2?


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

goldier said:


> Currently looks like a Japanese Zen garden with those rocks  Will you have some stem plants in there too? The Barr's technique works well with non-stem plants. Is there other way to speed up their growth other than the conventional way in deep water and forced CO2?


A japanese zen garden? wow, must have came out better than i though hehe

Yes, I will have stem plants, but I will only plant them after fllooding. Right now I am only trying to get the carpets to grow without competition from the stems (ie unlimited Co2) or whatever other plants i add (and don't forget algae!).

However, the dry start works well for many stems as well. Lots of plants can grow emersed: echinodorus, crypts, the grasses, most stems etc... but since most of the plants i will put in are already submerged and growing; there's no need to emerse them only to submerge them again.

Another way to speed up growth? hmmm speeding growth for any plant is only done with LIGHT and non-limiting nutrients. If emersed, then there is non limited Co2; and with the soil substrate + ocassional ferting there shouldn't be any deficiencies. Once submerged, Co2 goes into hot demand...


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

f1ea said:


> However, the dry start works well for many stems as well. Lots of plants can grow emersed: echinodorus, crypts, the grasses, most stems etc... but since most of the plants i will put in are already submerged and growing; there's no need to emerse them only to submerge them again.
> 
> Another way to speed up growth? hmmm speeding growth for any plant is only done with LIGHT and non-limiting nutrients. If emersed, then there is non limited Co2; and with the soil substrate + ocassional ferting there shouldn't be any deficiencies. Once submerged, Co2 goes into hot demand...


I was thinking to propagate more stem plants in a dry start method, i.e. with cuttings from a stock plant, and then flood them. I doubt a matured submerge stem plant would be able to hold itself up non-submerge. So, if the stem plants are grown from cuttings, do I need to raise the water level as the stems increase in length, or they will be able to hold themselves upright in the air? Maybe without water around them, the stems become more stocky and stronger?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Flea,

Looks like you're having fun with this tank.

The nice thing about the DSM is that you don't have to plant heavily. There's no algae concerns, _so the pressure is off_. You can wait as long as you like to get your plants established.

One major concern; I would increase the daylength to 14 or 16 hr. Emersed growth generally requires a long daylength (greater than 12 hr/day), a high light intensity, and warm temperatures. Summer conditions.

Since algae is not a concern, there's no reason to limit your plants to 10 hr. With 14-16 hr daylength, your plants will have more growing time per day.

You can always do a midday Siesta to limit electricity consumption.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> One major concern; I would increase the daylength to 14 or 16 hr. Emersed growth generally requires a long daylength (greater than 12 hr/day), a high light intensity, and warm temperatures. Summer conditions.
> 
> Since algae is not a concern, there's no reason to limit your plants to 10 hr. With 14-16 hr daylength, your plants will have more growing time per day.


Yup, this tank is all about fun.

Thanks for the light tip. I've just increased the light period, its at 14 hrs now. Tank gets some indirect light though, not much, but its near a west-facing window.

We are in "winter" now where I live (Dominican Republic) and in a cold wave, so temperature is around 76F... normally its around 80-84F in the day. Relative humidity is usually above 80%.

Just a wondering question... Under which environment conditions would someone NOT need the lid to trap humidity?



> I was thinking to propagate more stem plants in a dry start method, i.e. with cuttings from a stock plant, and then flood them. I doubt a matured submerge stem plant would be able to hold itself up non-submerge. So, if the stem plants are grown from cuttings, do I need to raise the water level as the stems increase in length, or they will be able to hold themselves upright in the air? Maybe without water around them, the stems become more stocky and stronger?


Sure, plants grow faster emersed (the ones that can grow emersed). But many plants take different forms though, and they will switch when they reach the surface. This typically means stronger stems to support themselves, different leaf shapes etc. some of them even bloom. What people do is trim the stems just before they reach the surface if they dont want the emersed form.

I think this is what you want though:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...929-beginner-s-guide-starting-your-first.html

Regards!


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Thanks F1ea for a great link. I read about DSM in another forum where Plantbrain described it himself, but my jaw just dropped seeing those pix in your link. I’ll become greedy and get a plastic tub and grow more of them, lol.

I will watch your plant growth from your journal. Keep those pix coming!


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

f1ea said:


> Just a wondering question... Under which environment conditions would someone NOT need the lid to trap humidity?


From my experience with rose cuttings in a zip-lock bag during humid summer here, I would avoid strong draft area and direct sunlight. Maybe better to crack open just a little bit and observe the plants often, and then adjust to make sure they don't wilt or dry out too much before they develop a strong root system.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

f1ea said:


> Just a wondering question... Under which environment conditions would someone NOT need the lid to trap humidity?
> 
> 
> > Good question. I think there's more to this than just humidity.
> ...


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Ethylene sensitivity and concentration must vary among species. In Ilex aquifolium L. air concentration of 0.01 – 0.1 ppm can induce abscission and browning. There was an article published in Planta 2000 on ET induced rachis elongation of Marsilea, but they pumped ET in the water at concentration of 50 ul/l – this concentration stimulated growth, not leaf senescence. From your experience, it’s probably better to air when you have lots of decay vegetation in a closed system.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

> From my experience with rose cuttings in a zip-lock bag during humid summer here, I would avoid strong draft area and direct sunlight. Maybe better to crack open just a little bit and observe the plants often, and then adjust to make sure they don't wilt or dry out too much before they develop a strong root system.


Yes, i think its wise to keep them from direct sunlight and excessive draft... but these plants are sometimes found under direct sunlight and high temperature BUT they are in a very high humidity environment... So maybe if the environment is humid enough, its more advisable to allow for better gas exchange rather than enclosing them.



> Good question. I think there's more to this than just humidity.
> 
> I think there's some reason to air out the system. In my article 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp' I mentioned the destructive leaf-browning and plant death I observed in my Glosso and Marsilea. I suspect it's from the buildup of ethylene gas from wounded plants. Tom Barr mentioned this once, but I've yet to get anymore input about it.





> Ethylene sensitivity and concentration must vary among species. In Ilex aquifolium L. air concentration of 0.01 - 0.1 ppm can induce abscission and browning. There was an article published in Planta 2000 on ET induced rachis elongation of Marsilea, but they pumped ET in the water at concentration of 50 ul/l - this concentration stimulated growth, not leaf senescence. From your experience, it's probably better to air when you have lots of decay vegetation in a closed system.


Furthermore... ethylene sensitivity must be compunded by the stress a plant is subjected to. Some plants simply have a harder time adjusting to new conditions, specially those that change form between sub- and emersed.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

A little update:
Plants are all beggining to show new growth. 

The most prolific has been the E. Tenellus (it was already emersed, and seems to be a quick grower), i have seen at least 5 new leaves. Considering it made a week long trip, i think its doing very well.

E. Acicularis was submerged to begin with... but now i can see about 3 new 'needles'. From my experience, it takes at least a week to settle, then it explodes.

H. verticillata is doing neatly. It looks the healthiest (but it was emersed and it went through basically no moving stress) although its been a slower grower... i can see 1 new 'umbrella'.

I'm thinking this week was the week to adapt and root. Next week should be to grow... 
Will post pics after some growth is noticeable.

Regards, and thanks for the comments/replies


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Oh.. some updates.

Growth is S... L... O... W...

Except for Hydrocotyle verticillata, the others are growing very slowly, but growing. Looking at start date on this thread, I have just a bit over 3 weeks... so it hasnt really been a long time. Feels longer hehe

New growth has been: H. verticillata- 4 or 5 new umbrellas, DHG - about 5 blades, E. tenellus - about 6 new leaves. Would post a pic, but there's no need... it all looks pretty much the same.

My large tank is due a MAJOR trim, and was hoping to be able to flood this one and add the trimmings, but growth has been so slow i might have to wait a few more weeks. Not sure if it would be better to wait longer and leet the carpets grow some more, or since the tank looks very well rooted... maybe just flood and let everyone grow and compete :-?

Once flooded, full plant list will be:

- Dwarf hairgrass
- Echinodorus tenellus
- Hydrocotyle verticillata

- Hygrophila difformis
- Rotala rotundifolia
- Ludwigia repens
- Hygrophila polysperma
- Bacopa caroliniana
- Cabomba caroliniana
- Nymphoides 'Taiwan'
- Egeria densa
- Vallisneria spiralis

Then later i will add some Crypts...

So basically, its a bunch of simple plants. Already have the basic scape idea in my head. I really love Ludwigia repens, beautiful leaf shape and texture... and i get stunning colour in the npt. The whole tank's planned around it.


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