# Raising Betta Fry



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Most litature I read about raising the fry say you have change 50% water everyday. Do you have to make frequent water changes in e natural tank?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

dawntwister said:


> Most litature I read about raising the fry say you have change 50% water everyday. Do you have to make frequent water changes in e natural tank?


If you want to maximize the number and size of the fry of just about any species, cleanliness and frequent water changes are a must. That suggests that a NPT is not a good place for that.

However: When one is breeding fish as a hobby, one needs to decide if he or she really wants to deal with 100 or 200 fry. I've done that, and frankly it is much more work than fun, and the hoped-for riches do not materialize.

I've raised a number of broods of kribs and angelfish, among others, in planted tanks without water changes. I didn't get hundreds of adults, but I still got more than I needed.

Betta's are a special case. I believe that they require shallow water for the first several weeks, until the labyrinth develops. If so, they need a special tank.

I hope this answers your question.

Bill


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

it's the messy feedings that the problem.. If your ENT has lots of little bugs in like most of us, maybe it'll work by feeding them less.
You don't want 100 bettas anyway. You might want to cull down to 20.. and further culling down the line.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I once raised a betta spawning up to 400 adults, and I never changed the water. I fed them Paramecium and then microworms. They got almost half grown on the microworms.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

dawntwister said:


> Most literature I read about raising the fry say you have change 50% water everyday. Do you have to make frequent water changes in el natural tank?


Massive water changes like this are often necessary in fish hatcheries (massive fish crowding).

In an NPT, you should have no problems raising Betta fry with infrequent water changes. I've bred and raised many cichlids, Rainbowfish, guppies, and Bettas with minimal (50% water changes every 3 to 6 months).

In an NPT, plants and soil keep the fish healthy. An NPT is perfect for raising a small number of fry. The Betta babies I raised in one 10 gal found enough food (protozoa) that I didn't even have to feed them!


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

The Betta fry I had were in a 15 gallon planted tank. The plants, mainly Zosterella dubia, were in some trays, and about 50% of the tank bottom was bare bottom where the microworms would accumulate without getting lost in gravel or mulm. I could see the layer of wiggling microworms and did not have to add any more until the ones present were mostly all consumed. I don't recall that I ever changed the water in that tank until all the fry were given away. I had two other 15 gallon planted tanks to which I moved the larger fry as they showed up in the first tank. The fry grew at very unequal rates with a majority staying very small while a relative few would start growing rapidly. I would remove the rapid growers to the two other tanks once or twice a week, and then another bunch of the little ones would start growing and "pop up" in a short time. Eventually all the fry made the transition, and I wound up with around 400 adult fish. It is fortunate that Bettas are air breathers, because all three tanks got very crowded by the time they all finished growing up. I never saw any reason to change the water because it always stayed clear and the fish always seemed healthy. There was no aeration or filtration in the three tanks. Thanks to the plants, the water stayed clear, and the fish always seemed healthy. I don't recall a single one dieing. 

Early on in the process, I put males, as soon as I could identify them, in individual jars, but soon I was totally overwhelmed by the large numbers and had to leave the newly appearing males together in the 15 gallon tanks. I thought they would get into serious fights, but, probably because of the crowding, they only developed a peaceful pecking order based on displays. When I realized that the ones in the tanks were getting along peacefully, I returned all the males I had been keeping in jars. In a few cases these newly returned males got into damaging fights, but, at worst, there was only a little fin damage, and very soon, all was peaceful again in the three tanks. As with most fish, crowding inhibits territoriality and fighting in Bettas. 

It was a big job getting rid of them, even in a town the size of Madison, Wisconsin. I virtually gave away about 200 at all the pet stores in the area. (How would you like 50 Bettas? I'll trade them for a can of TetraMin.) The other 200 I gave away to grad students, undergrad students and some professors at the University. It was similar to giving away 200 kittens! I never had the slightest interest in breeding Bettas again. :mrgreen:


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> Most litature I read about raising the fry say you have change 50% water everyday. Do you have to make frequent water changes in e natural tank?


I've had fry, albeit _molly_ fry in a planted tank, outgrow their siblings in a non-planted tank with water changes. I posted about it here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/44675-fry-growth-water-changes-plants.html

No one seems to want to talk about it and if they do, they're very offensive. Why?

People seem to need control. Rather than let nature or Ecology take care of things, they'd rather control everything themselves and remain in denial. Therefore, their water-changes are 'flushing the toilet" so to speak, while their plants are disposing of waste upon contact. Even if they have planted tanks, they take credit for waste removal. That's just plain wrong! In a non-planted tank, maybe...but a planted tank?


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Endler Guy said:


> <SNIP>
> Therefore, their water-changes are 'flushing the toilet" so to speak, while their plants are disposing of waste upon contact. Even if they have planted tanks, they take credit for waste removal. That's just plain wrong! In a non-planted tank, maybe...but a planted tank?


I'm an El Natural tank lover so I can't say for sure, but don't some people with high tech tanks intentionally overdose with fertilizers that they need to remove regularly to prevent algae?

Your line about "flushing the toilet" gave me this image of a bathroom with a "water saving, ecologically friendly" heavily planted toilet with no flush handle.


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## CCBettas (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi Dawntwister,

The 50% daily water change applies to show bettas. If you are just breeding regular veiltail bettas then you don't need to worry too much about such big water changes. Another reason for changing the weater so miuch is too keep the water from fouling as breeders often feed their youngsters lots of food so they can grow faster. 
I would advise not spawning the fish in a eNPT because the eggs will get lost. The water shoudl also be shallow enough that the male will not get tired swimming up and down retrieving eggs. It will be some time later than the fry will be big and healthy enough to be transferred to another tank. Probably 3-4 weeks you can transfer them if you wish. 
http://timsalphabettas.com/breeding.html
in there are two different methods of breeding bettas. I would only use the "natural" method described in the page after having raised several spawns as a lot can go wrong doing it. If you are going to do it, I would also suggest upgrading the tank size to a 20 gal long min.
Hope this helps.

Carl Archie


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

Mr Fishies said:


> I'm an El Natural tank lover so I can't say for sure, but don't some people with high tech tanks intentionally overdose with fertilizers that they need to remove regularly to prevent algae?


Yes, people do add large amounts of waste products and chemicals to their tanks but no one makes a big deal out of that. Don't do a water change on an unpolluted tank and they freak. That just doesn't make any sense to me.



Mr Fishies said:


> Your line about "flushing the toilet" gave me this image of a bathroom with a "water saving, ecologically friendly" heavily planted toilet with no flush handle.


It'd have to be one pretty big toilet  . My tap water has ammonia and nitrate. My tank has undetectable levels of both. I'd actually be adding "dirtier" water than what I'd be removing. My gripe is with people who just don't have faith in plants.


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

Carl,

What about a nano NPT. There would be plenty of microorganisms for the fry to eat so pollution wouldn't be a concern and the tank wouldn't be very deep.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

HeyPK said:


> The Betta fry I had were in a 15 gallon planted tank. The plants, mainly Zosterella dubia, were in some trays, and about 50% of the tank bottom was bare bottom where the microworms would accumulate without getting lost in gravel or mulm. I could see the layer of wiggling microworms and did not have to add any more until the ones present were mostly all consumed. I don't recall that I ever changed the water in that tank until all the fry were given away. I had two other 15 gallon planted tanks to which I moved the larger fry as they showed up in the first tank. The fry grew at very unequal rates with a majority staying very small while a relative few would start growing rapidly. I would remove the rapid growers to the two other tanks once or twice a week, and then another bunch of the little ones would start growing and "pop up" in a short time. Eventually all the fry made the transition, and I wound up with around 400 adult fish. It is fortunate that Bettas are air breathers, because all three tanks got very crowded by the time they all finished growing up. I never saw any reason to change the water because it always stayed clear and the fish always seemed healthy. There was no aeration or filtration in the three tanks. Thanks to the plants, the water stayed clear, and the fish always seemed healthy. I don't recall a single one dieing.
> 
> Early on in the process, I put males, as soon as I could identify them, in individual jars, but soon I was totally overwhelmed by the large numbers and had to leave the newly appearing males together in the 15 gallon tanks. I thought they would get into serious fights, but, probably because of the crowding, they only developed a peaceful pecking order based on displays. When I realized that the ones in the tanks were getting along peacefully, I returned all the males I had been keeping in jars. In a few cases these newly returned males got into damaging fights, but, at worst, there was only a little fin damage, and very soon, all was peaceful again in the three tanks. As with most fish, crowding inhibits territoriality and fighting in Bettas.
> 
> It was a big job getting rid of them, even in a town the size of Madison, Wisconsin. I virtually gave away about 200 at all the pet stores in the area. (How would you like 50 Bettas? I'll trade them for a can of TetraMin.) The other 200 I gave away to grad students, undergrad students and some professors at the University. It was similar to giving away 200 kittens! I never had the slightest interest in breeding Bettas again. :mrgreen:


Thank you PK for relating your interesting experience breeding Bettas with no water changes. I am in awe of your commitment to giving all these fish away.

One important thing about raising any baby fish, especially the tiny spawn of egg layers. Be careful that the water current isn't too vigorous. I lost several batches of Rainbowfish until I realized that the little babies need to be raised in calm water. I would start out with 50-100 babies but gradually lose most of them by the end of the first week. When I turned off the powerhead and raised them in still water, I did not lose a one....


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## CCBettas (Nov 6, 2006)

Endler Guy said:


> Carl,
> 
> What about a nano NPT. There would be plenty of microorganisms for the fry to eat so pollution wouldn't be a concern and the tank wouldn't be very deep.


Hi,

There would be plenty of microorganisms for the first week or two. But the fry will soon need alot more food. Especially if there is going to be 100-300 fry. And the eggs will get lost very easily in the substrate. I would not go more than 5-6 inches for any spawning bettas.

Carl Archie


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

HeyPK said:


> The Betta fry I had were in a 15 gallon planted tank. The plants, mainly Zosterella dubia, were in some trays, and about 50% of the tank bottom was bare bottom where the microworms would accumulate without getting lost in gravel or mulm. I could see the layer of wiggling microworms and did not have to add any more until the ones present were mostly all consumed. I don't recall that I ever changed the water in that tank until all the fry were given away. I had two other 15 gallon planted tanks to which I moved the larger fry as they showed up in the first tank. The fry grew at very unequal rates with a majority staying very small while a relative few would start growing rapidly. I would remove the rapid growers to the two other tanks once or twice a week, and then another bunch of the little ones would start growing and "pop up" in a short time. Eventually all the fry made the transition, and I wound up with around 400 adult fish. It is fortunate that Bettas are air breathers, because all three tanks got very crowded by the time they all finished growing up. I never saw any reason to change the water because it always stayed clear and the fish always seemed healthy. There was no aeration or filtration in the three tanks. Thanks to the plants, the water stayed clear, and the fish always seemed healthy. I don't recall a single one dieing.
> 
> Early on in the process, I put males, as soon as I could identify them, in individual jars, but soon I was totally overwhelmed by the large numbers and had to leave the newly appearing males together in the 15 gallon tanks. I thought they would get into serious fights, but, probably because of the crowding, they only developed a peaceful pecking order based on displays. When I realized that the ones in the tanks were getting along peacefully, I returned all the males I had been keeping in jars. In a few cases these newly returned males got into damaging fights, but, at worst, there was only a little fin damage, and very soon, all was peaceful again in the three tanks. As with most fish, crowding inhibits territoriality and fighting in Bettas.
> 
> It was a big job getting rid of them, even in a town the size of Madison, Wisconsin. I virtually gave away about 200 at all the pet stores in the area. (How would you like 50 Bettas? I'll trade them for a can of TetraMin.) The other 200 I gave away to grad students, undergrad students and some professors at the University. It was similar to giving away 200 kittens! I never had the slightest interest in breeding Bettas again. :mrgreen:


I don't know how I missed this post, but I did. I'm glad it was brought back up! My male betta's fins got better after going from a 55 to a 10 gallon tank. He would chase his own reflection and other fish that had color, especially the male endlers. He looked ragged in the 55 but is now a darker blue and his fins are not shredded. I transfered him and the mollies to a 10 before any of the tanks were planted.


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

CCBettas said:


> Hi,
> 
> There would be plenty of microorganisms for the first week or two. But the fry will soon need alot more food. Especially if there is going to be 100-300 fry. And the eggs will get lost very easily in the substrate. I would not go more than 5-6 inches for any spawning bettas.
> 
> Carl Archie


What about a long NPT about 8" deep? You could transfer them once they'd gotten big enough, couldn't you? After all, a commercial fisherman...or breeder, would have a good amount of tanks, wouldn't he?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Endler Guy said:


> What about a long NPT about 8" deep? You could transfer them once they'd gotten big enough, couldn't you? After all, a commercial fisherman...or breeder, would have a good amount of tanks, wouldn't he?


Yes he would have a number of tanks, and none would have plants or a substrate in them either. 

Bill


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

HeyPK: I just now saw your essay on raising Betta fry. Absolutely hilarious. I haven't read anything so funny in a long time. It probably wasn't meant to be funny but after trying for many years (and still at it) of trying to figure a way to make this addiction pay, it points up the fact that we do this for love not money.

Thank you!


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## CCBettas (Nov 6, 2006)

Endler Guy said:


> What about a long NPT about 8" deep? You could transfer them once they'd gotten big enough, couldn't you? After all, a commercial fisherman...or breeder, would have a good amount of tanks, wouldn't he?


As I already stated, I would not go beyond 6" as that is already pushing it. Don't forget that by the tiem they spawn, they will have chases the female around and around put in alot of energy to make the nest one bubble at a time and have probably eaten very little. Most spawns will have 200-400 eggs. The male will have to pick them up only a couple at a time.

Again, I already said you can transfer them once they are old enough. By the time they are big enough though, they will probably need larger quarters anyway because they are bigger depending on teh size of your tank. At six weeks of age, they should be big enough to start isolating the males.

A commercial breeder will make his living off of bettas. a commercial breeder will also live in Thailand. They will have a whole building dedicated to jars. They usually have hige outdoor tanks for growing out their bettas. 
Most hobby breeders have maybe 10 tanks of different sizes. Then they have up to 1000 jars depending on how much fish they keep and sell. Alot of breeders I know, though, like to keep their numbers down by keeping only the best and culling heavily, only keep 5-10 fish from each spawn for breeding and selling. 
I hope this helps some.

Carl Archie


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Mr Fishies said:


> I'm an El Natural tank lover so I can't say for sure, but don't some people with high tech tanks intentionally overdose with fertilizers that they need to remove regularly to prevent algae?
> 
> Your line about "flushing the toilet" gave me this image of a bathroom with a "water saving, ecologically friendly" heavily planted toilet with no flush handle.


Hey that good invention idea. Go for it. Could use something like that here in GA.::


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