# Soft, Acidic Water in El Nataural?



## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

I am just loving my start in the realm of El Nataural aquariums. I'd like to start a 20gallon tank dedicated to breed a fish that needs soft, acidic water to breed successfully. I'd like this to be an El Natural tank too, since I want to not disturb My two NPT set-ups work well for me but my water is hard. Out of the tap, aged 24 hours and dechlorinated, it reads a pH of 9.7 and 8.7ppm dH. 

Is using peat an option with the soil under the gravel cap? I've heard its not stable enough to be healthy for fish, but the sites that said that sell RO units...so I don't know who to believe. 

What about running a filter on my water change bucket (40 gallon trash can actually) with peat in the filter? 

Anyone have any good ideas?


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

are you trying to do a rio ***** NPT?


I have a soft spot for rio *****'s( soft acidic low ph planted)

I use homemade extract for mine because I am cautious of the fast swing PEAT gives. to keep it soft and dark I just add dead fallen oak leaves and driftwood.

Mine are not NPT but when the blackwater rio ***** 40 was set up my Ph stayed a constant 4.8 and my pet store big box neons lived for 3 years and thrived once they got in the BW. it set my angels into a massive egg laying time, 300+ eggs every week.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

WhiteDevil said:


> are you trying to do a rio ***** NPT?
> 
> I have a soft spot for rio *****'s( soft acidic low ph planted)
> 
> ...


Would you like to tell us how you make that extract? Thanks.

Bill


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

"8.7ppm dH"

is this GH or KH? 
is this ppm OR dH?

8.7 parts per million is VERY soft. 8.7 German Degrees of Hardness is rather hard, when you are trying to breed soft water fish. 

Test the peat moss idea: Set up a bucket about 3/4 full of tap water and a generous handful of peat moss. Circulate it for several days or a week, testing daily:
GH
KH
pH. 
TDS (Total dissolved solids)
If this gives you the water you want, go for it. 

I think, however you will have to look into the reverse osmosis idea. Fish that breed in such soft water (very low GH) also prefer all the minerals and salts in the water to be very low (Low TDS). By starting with RO, you can carefully add just the minerals they need. Tap water might be fine for as a source of the minerals, but you might have to create a recipe sort of like this:
25% tap
75% RO
Circulate in a barrel with peat moss for 24-48 hours. 
You could test this idea with a gallon of RO water from the grocery store. 

This sort of water will be pretty good for the soft water fish, but not so great for most of the common aquarium plants. There are some specialty plants that require water like this, though.


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

Diana K said:


> "8.7ppm dH"
> 
> is this GH or KH?
> is this ppm OR dH?
> ...


Sorry for the confusion. I was copy/pasting from the water report sent to me by the city I live in. It is 8.7dH.

I've tested the water on the tank I plan to use for this soft/acidic project. I used the API KH/GH test kit and am trying to understand what my reading means. It took 6 drops to get a color change for KH and 12 drops for GH. pH is 7.8. Ammonia, nitrite zero (no surprise there, plants growing well) and nitrate shows right at 10.

It is an El Natural tank, 1 inch of MiracleGro Organic Choice Potting Soil, 1 inch of pea gravel. 3 pieces of driftwood.



Diana K said:


> Test the peat moss idea: Set up a bucket about 3/4 full of tap water and a generous handful of peat moss. Circulate it for several days or a week, testing daily:
> GH
> KH
> pH.
> ...


In reading others' trials with peat, I've decided to go the RO route.



Diana K said:


> This sort of water will be pretty good for the soft water fish, but not so great for most of the common aquarium plants. There are some specialty plants that require water like this, though.


Do you know of any plants that like this type of water? Would swords work out (maybe getting nutrients mostly from roots)?


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> are you trying to do a rio ***** NPT?
> 
> I have a soft spot for rio *****'s( soft acidic low ph planted)
> 
> I use homemade extract for mine because I am cautious of the fast swing PEAT gives. to keep it soft and dark I just add dead fallen oak leaves and driftwood.


What plants do you keep? I hadn't thought of a Rio ***** biotope, but I guess that's what I'm headed toward.


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> are you trying to do a rio ***** NPT?
> 
> I have a soft spot for rio *****'s( soft acidic low ph planted)
> 
> I use homemade extract for mine because I am cautious of the fast swing PEAT gives. to keep it soft and dark I just add dead fallen oak leaves and driftwood.


What plants do you keep? I hadn't thought of a Rio ***** biotope, but I guess that's what I'm headed toward.


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

I used to mix hard water with ro water all the time. If you're going to be serious about the ro water, you better just buy a cheap system for around $200. On another note ro or distilled would work. You'll have to do some trial and error mixing. I found my tap water would get the softness I liked with 10 litres ro to 6 litres tap water. I then ph downed the softer water to 6.5. You will also have to be careful which ph downs you use as one actually uped the hardness. Another one was a huge fertilizer for the plants and as they ate it, caused huge ph swings. And then there was the one that replaced my alkalinity table with gypsum which is rather weird because the water is stable at the ph but you can't test it.

Just a final note, be sure to age your water in a bucket because the ph will change over the period of a day. Fortunately with a npt you don't have to do a lot of water changes!


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

I have several soft water NPT setups to breed dwarf cichlids. I use RO water only and have had them set up for 3 to 6 months.

My largest tank has the traditional 3 inch top soil base covered with plain aquarium gravel. The water in this one stays moderately soft/hard despite using RO water (TDS ~ 300 - 400). My theory is that minerals leech from the soil. In that one I have echinodorus ozelot (a big one with lots of red), hygro corymbosa, sag subulata, star grass, crypt lucens, nymphea (2 species), Crinum Thaianum, egeria densa, hygro difformis that have all done well.

I have 3 30 gallon tanks set up with a thin layer of soil under plain aquarium gravel. In these the water is soft (TDS ~ 130). In these I have egeria densa, hornwort, crypt wendtii, moss balls, sag subulata, stargrass, anubias, Hemianthus Callitrichoides, java moss all doing well. I have 2 T5HO bulbs over these tanks. I have a couple other plants in there, but can't remember their names right now (I have them written down at home).

So far I have not added anything to acidify the water except for small pieces of driftwood. The water in one tank is slightly tea colored from the driftwood. I wouldn't use pH altering chemicals.

My advice for selecting plants would be to get a bunch of different types and see what works. As you can see plenty of plants have worked for me.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

"It is 8.7dH." What does the word 'It' refer to? GH or KH? 

"I used the API KH/GH test kit and am trying to understand what my reading means. It took 6 drops to get a color change for KH and 12 drops for GH."

OK, there is the answer: The KH is 6 German degrees of hardness and the GH is 12 German degrees of hardness. 
With water like this I think you will want to use at least 75% RO with only 25% tap water, and maybe even more RO. 
Some fish thrive in black water habitat, so test that water blend with peat moss, and see if it gives you the water the fish want. If your fish choices are not black water fish, then skip the peat moss.

Do not ADD things to the water (ph down) to get the pH where you want it. This will raise the TDS, and fish that need soft water to breed also need very low TDS.


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

Thanks for all the tips everyone!

No, I would not want to artifically (chemically) lower the pH. It seems tht it would be best to just go the RO route. Until I'm finished with college, I have access to free RO in the lab anyway, so no excuse eh? They're even setting up an El Natural tank as an experiment, once it thaws here. They go out exploring the local rivers and do testing to see how healthy the environment is around here, and collect fish and plants. A Native El Nataural in the works!

Would I treat this tank I want to set up just like the other El Natural tanks, as far as lighting, water changes, etc.? 

I have about 20 different aquatic plants, and sadly don't know the specific names of most of them. One of these days I'm going to take photos of each and look them up. Until I see how they do, I'll plant a little of each and see what like the adjustment to the RO/tap water and cultivate those that thrive the most.


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

Diana K said:


> Do not ADD things to the water (ph down) to get the pH where you want it. This will raise the TDS, and fish that need soft water to breed also need very low TDS.


Great advice! I often wondered why the fish cared about the ph. I also owned a tds meter. I never actually did get the fish I was trying to breed to hatch eggs. Since those frustrating days I've gone with straight tap water. Unfortunately most of my species are South American and my ph is 7.8. I also still have my ro system collecting dust in the corner..


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

baos said:


> Great advice! I often wondered why the fish cared about the ph. I also owned a tds meter. I never actually did get the fish I was trying to breed to hatch eggs. Since those frustrating days I've gone with straight tap water. Unfortunately most of my species are South American and my ph is 7.8. I also still have my ro system collecting dust in the corner..


**sneaks over to baos' house to look for dust covered equipment to 'borrow'! ** arty:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

OrangeCones said:


> Anyone have any good ideas?


Here are a few species that are softwater candidates (come from softwater habitats):

_Bacopa caroliniana 
Cabomba caroliniana
Cryptocoryne cordata
Egeria densa
Eleocharis acicularis
Isoetes spp.
Ludwigia spp.
Myacca fluviatilis
Myriophyllum alterniflorum_

I would buy a book that helps you identify plant species.


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

Diana K said:


> Do not ADD things to the water (ph down) to get the pH where you want it. This will raise the TDS, and fish that need soft water to breed also need very low TDS.


Are the TDS test strips they sell for pools/hot tubs useful for testing TDS for an aquarium?


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## OrangeCones (Aug 15, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Here are a few species that are softwater candidates (come from softwater habitats):
> 
> _Bacopa caroliniana
> Cabomba caroliniana
> ...


On my wishlist of things to buy, waiting for my tuition reimbursement check from work! The books I do have are so out of date


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