# Blue Spotted Sunfish Walstad 36gal



## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So this project is several months down the line June hopefully. It's all hinging on renovating my 400 gal pond. I thought I would be able to at least move the rocks out but nope, its Michigan and we have had rain, 3 days of 60° weather then snow then rain then this morning more snow...... i am so done with winter.

Anyway I need this post so that I can start visulizing this project and stop contemplating getting rid of the living room couch so I can have space to bring up my old 20gal........ sad to say ive been outvoted the couch is still im the living room and the tank is still in the basement.

I kmow the biggest hurdle for this tank will be getting enough plants all in the tank at the same time for the initial start up. I have no LFS that has enough plants at a reasonable price so I have to turn to online souces. this is what my plan looks like right now.

Shop #1 25% off order plant set #2 with swaps from set#4
Set #2 $28.95

Micranthemum Monte Carlo (never tried) (swap?)
Alternanthera reineckii varigated
Bacopa Caroliniana (swap)
Hygrophilia Pinnatifida
Hydrocotyle Leucocephala
Set #4

Hyptis Lorentziana (no)
Rotala Colorata (no?)
Persicaria sp. Kawagoeanum (swap w/ of bacopa in set#2)
Hydrocotyle Tripartita Japan
Lobelia cardinalis small form (swap w/monte carlo)
Single purcahse plant same seller

ludwigia peruensis
Hygrophila Corymbosa Compacta
Nesaea pedicellata
Shope #2

Red Flame sword
Red Tiger lotus sprouted

So I dont think those are enough plants to get me off the ground. I have in my nano tank, which is of course small so I am limited with how much i can transplant, these plants.

crypts, nurrii phang mutated, green gecko, bronze, lucens
sword little prince, micro
rotala h'ra, caterpiller
Ludwigia needleleaf
bacopa colorata
3 buce
star grass

So im looking for other plant recommendations for plant purchasing sites and plants in general that I can see, in partucular if shop #1 carries. I need to have a robust enough selection to get the new tank off the ground. The shop with the lotus and sword has limited stock so i am open to a shop that carrues those plants and a larger selection. More bang for my buck considering shipping.
I still havent doubled checked the policy on giving shop names.

Moveing on to hardwear. Since my shubunkin is still in the tank i have a old marineland hanging filter and a Ehime classic 250 canister filter. The marineland filter will go but i think i will keep the canister. Ehime canisters are absolute work horses and i love them.

I also am in the market for a whole new light. My Finnix stingray went on the fritz a couple years ago, appearently it thought being a strobe light was better then just being a functioning light.

Substrate will be 50/50 compost sand again. I will have to find a new cap for the soil, as I think the the bluespots like a dark colored substrate. Not sure if I should go with a sand or small gravel.

Sorry @johnwesley0 the sunfish have won out over the apistos lol.
Ill be getting my fish from zimmermans i am not sure on quanity yet.
I will have
Blue spotted sunfish
Rainbow darters
Indicided native schooling/shoaling fish.
He has several species im leaning towards the smaller species. He has some p-class blustar endlers or spiketail platy all in the 1-2in range.
He also has dace, shiners and liberty molly. I think those might be too close to the size of the sunfish, they all run in the 3-4 in range.
I havent decided if i want a heater yet, a heater would be benefical for spawning.

So thats the basic plan now, send suggestions. Keeping me distracted saves the living room couch.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I would lean heavily on the micro swords. They seem to be the only fast-growing rooted plants on your list and a 36 gallon tank will give you a lot of foreground to cover. The other plants are very pretty but I'm all about getting some roots and runners down first, then hoping the stem plants will work out. If the stem plants don't do well, you still have your crypts and the tiger lotus doing their thing.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Agree with John on the micro swords, or chain swords. Vals are also a good one to consider. I've have good luck with S Repens in my tank's foreground. Buce Plant is a great source and I've always gotten good quantities of healthy plants. They have a good DOA policy, you earn points on your purchases that can be used for discounts later, and shipping is reasonable. www.buceplant.com


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Yes i figured i would need some fast growing carpet plant like the chain swords thay absouy took off in my nano. I figured plants like the conte carlo, hairgrass or other carpey pants wouldnt do the job.
I will add vals to the list.
What about dwarf sag? Any other fast growing foreground plants. I am know of buceplants have never ordered from the. Pearlingplants is the site that I have my 25% off coupon code so ill stick with them for first place of order, but they carry almost all stemplants which is why my list is a bit skewed in that direction.
They were one of the places i found who had floating tiger. 

Ill swap to buceplants for lotus, swords and and other fast growing rooted plants. Ill check out their site and then amend my list.

Let me know know if any plants are on my list are a "dont bother" plant. I know i want the hygro pinn. Ive had that before and it was a stinning plant and hygos as a whole are pretty indestructable.
Ive never tried the renekii but i figured know would be the time with such a rich substrate. Ludwigias are hit or miss and rotalas are good stand bys for me. 
Thanks


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

maico996 said:


> Agree with John on the micro swords, or chain swords. Vals are also a good one to consider. I've have good luck with S Repens in my tank's foreground. Buce Plant is a great source and I've always gotten good quantities of healthy plants. They have a good DOA policy, you earn points on your purchases that can be used for discounts later, and shipping is reasonable. www.buceplant.com


I have a wheel thrown pot i need to be finishing decorating for class. Instead i have $123 worth of plants in my cart at buceplants....... 😅


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

I've never had any luck with Monte Carlo. They seem to benefit from very high amounts of light and CO2 injection. I had to reduce the amount of light in my tank to control algae and CO2 injection is generally not needed in a Walstad tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

maico996 said:


> I've never had any luck with Monte Carlo. They seem to benefit from very high amounts of light and CO2 injection. I had to reduce the amount of light in my tank to control algae and CO2 injection is generally not needed in a Walstad tank.


Ive never tried it but ive heard its touchy and i just dont think its worth the effort. I in no way way want to deal with plant that needs those requirments. I working on a revised plant list....... and still neglecting class work lol


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I swear by dwarf sag. Mine really seem to soak up soil once they get over the initial "melt". They don't need super bright light and go very well with fast growing floaters like frog bit and salvinia.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So I've revised my plant list and right now its way, way more then I want to spend but dont think I can get around it..... espicially when I can't bring myself to dump a $24 buce from my cart. Lol and i havent even looked at crypts yet ugh.
So heres the new list
Pearling Plants revised list
Set #4 29.98 w/ 25% off final order price 

Lobelia cardinalis small form
Rotala colorata or persicaria sp. Kawagoeanum (cant decide)
hydro. Trip. Japan
hygo. Pinnatifida
alternanthera reinckii varigated
Single plant
- hygro. Corymbosa compacta

From buce plants

echin. Marble queen
echin. Ozelot
echin. Red flame
tiger lotus
anubias barteri coffeefolia
mico sword
buce dark skeleton king, Starglitz, black pearl
Vall. Leopard
dwarf sag.

So i am close to $140 which is...... not what i wanted. 
So i think my plan will be to get the dwarf sag, and micro sword and use them on opposite ends in the foreground and let them run wild. Now next question will one pot suffice or do i need to get their 3 pot option.
Next i dont think i need 3 swords.... so keep marble queen and choose between red flame or ozelot....
The driftwood plants are all ones ive wanted to try for years... dark skeleton king is just stunning.

Im unsure about the leopard val. 
So for crypts i have a 2nd plant from my phang mutated, but nothing from green gecko or bronze yet. 
Pink flamingo is very tempting but im not sure its worth the risk, so im looking for possibly one other crypt to add.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> The driftwood plants are all ones ive wanted to try for years... dark skeleton king is just stunning.


Is this why the _anubias _is on your list? Epiphytic plants look beautiful but aren't great bio-filters because they grow so slowly.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Is this why the _anubias _is on your list? Epiphytic plants look beautiful but aren't great bio-filters because they grow so slowly.


Lol yes the anubias and buce are all just guilty pleasure plants. I saw Coffeefolia years ago in a display tank at a LFS down state i immidiatly bought one.

At the time I was still trying to make a stand that I could get live plants to work with my Shibunkin who couldnt return to his pond. I didnt know how long I would have to keep him in the 36gal and I had just started researching planted tanks before i had to move him from the pond. I tried for almost a year and a half but it was a fight i lost.

Almost all the plants on the list are like a second chance, I tried most of them with my comet.
All 3 of the swords, lotus, the hygros, vals, the sag and micro sword, 2 of the buce and of course the anubias...... My first coffeefolia lasted a wopping 4 months with my glutton comet.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i have looked through the crypts buceplants has and am going to skip pink flamingo. I am instead considering retrospiralis, albida cotata and axelrodi. 

Ive been searching google for images of the plants in the tanks but im always cautious about the accuracy of the i.d of the plants in the photos, and of coures plants color differently in different tanks so it not really the best was to judge.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

What is the success rate for tissue culture plants in a walsted tank? Their are a couple crypts im intreasted in that buceplants only has a tissue culture. Ive swung back to considering pink flamingo and also affins. You used to be able to find affins pretty readdily. Both are tissue culture. If i want them should i have them in the tank from the getgo or should i wait till the tank is established. I have never tried tissue cultures before....... my plant list just keeps growing 😅


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

PlentyCoup said:


> What is the success rate for tissue culture plants in a walsted tank? Their are a couple crypts im intreasted in that buceplants only has a tissue culture. Ive swung back to considering pink flamingo and also affins. You used to be able to find affins pretty readdily. Both are tissue culture. If i want them should i have them in the tank from the getgo or should i wait till the tank is established. I have never tried tissue cultures before....... my plant list just keeps growing 😅


I've used lots of tissue cultures before only because potted or bunched versions weren't available. The rate of success really depends on the plant, your substrate, your water...basically your tank in general. There's no way to guarantee that one particular plant is going to do well in the environment you create. Basically you put a bunch of different plants in and see which ones survive. Some will thrive, some won't, and some will just melt away. Tissue cultures just guarantee that there won't be any hitchhikers or algae already present on the plants you buy.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

maico996 said:


> I've used lots of tissue cultures before only because potted or bunched versions weren't available. The rate of success really depends on the plant, your substrate, your water...basically your tank in general. There's no way to guarantee that one particular plant is going to do well in the environment you create. Basically you put a bunch of different plants in and see which ones survive. Some will thrive, some won't, and some will just melt away. Tissue cultures just guarantee that there won't be any hitchhikers or algae already present on the plants you buy.


Thats kind of what i figured. Well I'm going to shelve the plant list for a bit. I do need to decide on how much of the micro sword and dwarf sag along with if i want the marble queen, red flame and hadi red pearl. 
I think ill start looking into a new light...... my absolute least favorite about setting up a tank.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

In my experience tissue culture plants are much more expensive, and the problems they solve either are unavoidable (algae) or not something I consider a problem (snails, other hitchhikers). If you can get it for a similar price to potted/bare-roots and it's the only option then there's nothing _bad _about it.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So this project had been shelved till next summer because I ran into issues with expanding the pond and preexisting sprinkler lines. So the plan was finish the pond next spring and my goldfish would be ok for one more winter indoors.
That was my plan until yesterday morning when i woke up to find my goldfish had died sometime in the night. It was a shock he was healthy despite being almost 10 years old. So i have no clue what happened and am sad to have lost my begging water dog, my mom in particular adored that fish. 

So I now have a empty tank. I just had a new hood made for the tank to get rid of the ugly black one. I can post pics if anyone one is interested. 

First order of business is a new light. I have $38 at my LFS from selling extra plants from my nano. I dont know what light brands they carry off the top of my head so I will call them to see. I am open to any suggestions for good lights. My last was Finnex Stingray and it was having flickering issues. I think it was only about 3 or 4 years old when it had the problem so i dont think i would go with tgat again. 

I will be using 50/50 sand compost mix again and will re look at my plant list, and decide on fish stock.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Personally, i would have to go several degrees of magnitude above my present budget to get what I really want which is a totally programmable catwalk style light with dimmable LED bulbs, color combinations and multiple on/off sunrise/sunset settings. BUT at the price point you and I are both stuck at, I would be happy with a catwalk style light that can operate with an external timer/dimmer AND has about a 80/20 ratio of white bulbs to color bulbs. That last piece is important to me because I am reading more and more posts regarding people switching out their blue LED bulbs for more white lights in order to combat algae.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Personally, i would have to go several degrees of magnitude above my present budget to get what I really want which is a totally programmable catwalk style light with dimmable LED bulbs, color combinations and multiple on/off sunrise/sunset settings. BUT at the price point you and I are both stuck at, I would be happy with a catwalk style light that can operate with an external timer/dimmer AND has about a 80/20 ratio of white bulbs to color bulbs. That last piece is important to me because I am reading more and more posts regarding people switching out their blue LED bulbs for more white lights in order to combat algae.


Price point is currently a hurdle yes. I have been squirreling away money for this project and I think I have about 150-175. 100 is a conservative amount for plants. It will probably be closer to 130. So that leaves me with roughly 50 for a light or 80 if my LFS has something that fits the bill. 

I to have noticed the buzz in the community about white to blue light ratio but I am an awful person who never keeps up with posts and almost never comments on all the threads i read 😅


So that was at the top of my list to consider for a light. Catwalk is a must. Dimmable would be wonderful but my not in the budget. Timer conmpatable is a must thankfully I already have a timer. The kasa timer for my nano was in a 2 pack and for a basic timer i absolutely love the kasa. 

I will get back monday with light options from my LFS.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Me researching lights "Ohhh Fluval 3.0 great brand, great warrenty, control led rage and color, customizable settings, absolutely everything I want in a light, its perfect its wonderful its $175.........$175.......... ugghhhhhhh 😭😭


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

PlentyCoup said:


> Me researching lights "Ohhh Fluval 3.0 great brand, great warrenty, control led rage and color, customizable settings, absolutely everything I want in a light, its perfect its wonderful its $175.........$175.......... ugghhhhhhh 😭😭


Look at the finnex lights. They're a bit cheaper. There are Chinese lights that are much cheaper as well. It's all on Amazon.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Look at the finnex lights. They're a bit cheaper. There are Chinese lights that are much cheaper as well. It's all on Amazon.


Yes i have been going through amazon and checking options there. I just do not want at all to falll in the trap of buying a light that is more affordanle that will break down in a year or less because then that will $50 or whatever amount wasted. The fluval is just the very very very nice lol.
I still have to give my LFS a call. I have $38 there i can put towards either a light or plants so I have to examine my options there. I had a Finnex Stingray wasnt to impressed with its longevity.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I feel your pain. I have the Nicrew C10 which has some of those things but can only be set on and off once. So, I compromise: I manually dim the lights to 0% for a 4 hour siesta when I'm home. That way I can maintain my other settings (color mix and automatic sunrise/sunset) without using an external timer. But if I'm going away, I have to use the external timer to set up the siesta period and just live with the default colors and brightness until I get back.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I feel your pain. I have the Nicrew C10 which has some of those things but can only be set on and off once. So, I compromise: I manually dim the lights to 0% for a 4 hour siesta when I'm home. That way I can maintain my other settings (color mix and automatic sunrise/sunset) without using an external timer. But if I'm going away, I have to use the external timer to set up the siesta period and just live with the default colors and brightness until I get back.


Well I might be in a simular boat as you, Nicrew has made it to my short list of light lol.
A 30in C10 is on sale on amazon for $42.

I am still sorting through the differences of the finnex 24/7 series and the KLC, CRV, HLV, ALC etc. Those for a 30in range from $80-124. Hygger is another band i will research. 

My LFS is not going to be much help. They have the fluval aquasky for $104 and the 3.0 for $175.
They had another brand dont have the paper i wrote thhe name on but it was $88 and not at all strong enough to grow plants by i don't think especially when it is not customizable in any way. At a depth of 24in the PAR was roughly 15. 

So that's where I'm at so far. Maybe I squeeze one of the Finnex into my budget, ( ha ha ha). 

I feel like i wasted $30 when i had the new hood made but I have cats, lots of pet hair soooo....


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I feel like i wasted $30 when i had the new hood made but I have cats, lots of pet hair soooo....


I clung to my hood until just a week ago when the new light came in the mail. My tank looks naked without one.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I clung to my hood until just a week ago when the new light came in the mail. My tank looks naked without one.


I have had hoods on tanks for so long, and i am not wholly sure my tank would be 100% safe with out a hood.

Heres my 36gal and the new hood.
















The hanging filter is of course going to go. Which just leaves my Eheim 250 canister filter which i am planning on leaving running right now.
And heres my tanks former resident goldfish


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So I have been going around in circles researching lights and so far have acheived nothing other then a headache and the urge to beat my head against a wall.
So I am taking the day to switch gears and look and stocking options. 
I think I am going to go full native from zimmermans and here is a list of his current fish stock.









So i am thinking a mix of the bluespots and banded and of course a schooling/shoaling group. 
I will lay all the blame at @johnwesley0 feet and his apisto setup for wanting fish that will breed in my setup.

I will contact Zimmermans and see what thoughts he has and then resume my light reserch.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So I have been going around in circles researching lights and so far have acheived nothing other then a headache and the urge to beat my head against a wall.
> So I am taking the day to switch gears and look and stocking options.
> I think I am going to go full native from zimmermans and here is a list of his current fish stock.
> View attachment 75461
> ...


As my babies get bigger, I do notice how much they look like tiny, little sunfish.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> As my babies get bigger, I do notice how much they look like tiny, little sunfish.


They really do!
Thought you had told me in one of my threads about where you got your apistos from but I cant find it. 

The reason im asking is that I was going through all my plant notes and stumbled on some papers of when i was researching apistos for my 36 gal. 

One of them the Apistogramma Macmasteri Gold / Red Shoulder looked I went at that paper while drunk it was so covered in stars, highlighter and circles. 

Anyway i looked it up again and that is a stunning fish and now im totally torn between it and the b.spot. 
Im also sort of worried about how interactive the b.spot will be.

At the same time I also feel like a total stupid person for setting up another tank when i am still struggling with my betta tank a bit. 
Despite reading Dianas book 3 time and taking notes i still only truly understand about a fraction of it. It reminds me when i had my first chemistry class in hs and realized i wouldnt be able to be a paleontologist because i was too stupid to understand it. 
Sorry for the minor freakout lol just suddenly feeling on less solid ground with this tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Thought you had told me in one of my threads about where you got your apistos from but I cant find it.


Sand City Aquatics, Lorain OH.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Back to lighting research now. I am waiting to hear back from Finnex on exact differences on their 24/7 series particularly the HLC and CRV. HLC runs 79 and CRV runs 130.
I still need to research them further and have some doubts about longevity. My Finnex only went 2.5-3 years before it had issues. 

Been doing extensive research with Hyggar 957 and 973. They have very good reviews but so far i find their programming to be very confusing. I am also unsure if I can program a siesta into the light or if it would require an external timer. The price point is much easier to swallow at 52.99 and 62.99 respectively before a coupon they are currently running, they are also aluminum and mostly water proof. I know you can control brightness and color but I cant figure out if i can control the exact number of say reds active. 

Nicrew is next on my research list. 
The Fluval still looks lovely in every way lol. 
The other light my LFS carried was lifeguard which i had never heard of and does not meet any of my light requirements.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Back to lighting research now. I am waiting to hear back from Finnex on exact differences on their 24/7 series particularly the HLC and CRV. HLC runs 79 and CRV runs 130.
> I still need to research them further and have some doubts about longevity. My Finnex only went 2.5-3 years before it had issues.
> 
> Been doing extensive research with Hyggar 957 and 973. They have very good reviews but so far i find their programming to be very confusing. I am also unsure if I can program a siesta into the light or if it would require an external timer. The price point is much easier to swallow at 52.99 and 62.99 respectively before a coupon they are currently running, they are also aluminum and mostly water proof. I know you can control brightness and color but I cant figure out if i can control the exact number of say reds active.
> ...


Looking up the Hyggers right now.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Looking up the Hyggers right now.


I just messaged the company but I THINK that in order to have a siesta you need an external timer. Also I read another review on the hyggar (it just said 24/7 did not specify 957, 999, 978 etc) that the run program had to be manually turned on at the time you needed it. I need to verify if this applies to all their lights or just one specific style. I also do not believe that you can control the exact number of a specific light spectrum that are active.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Just found this post on another forum that seemed to expaine the functions of the Hygger 957

This is what I know about Auto mode. You can specify the start time and the end time for the daylight period. The startup of the daylight period will begin at the specified start time with a 15 minute ramp up from off to 50%, then a 1 hour sunrise segment at 50%, and a 15 minute ramp up from 50% to 100%. The shutdown of the daylight period begins with a 15 minute ramp down from 100% to 50%, then a 1 hour sunset segment, and a 15 minute ramp down from 50% to off, ending at the specified off time.



If the daylight start time is specified as 6:00am and the stop time is specified as 6:00pm then the times will be as follows:



6:00am - 6:15am = ramp up from off to 50%


6:15am - 7:15am = sunrise at 50%


7:15am - 7:30am = ramp up from 50% to 100%


7:30am - 4:30pm = daylight at 100%


4:30pm - 4:45pm = ramp down from 100% to 50%


4:45pm - 5:45pm = sunset at 50%


5:45pm - 6:00pm = ramp down from 50% to off


This is where my two new lights are not operating properly. At 4:30pm they will ramp all the way down to off, skipping sunset.



You can also specify the start time and end time of the moonlight period. Moonlight has a 15 minute ramp up from off to 100% at the start and a 15 minute ramp down from 100% to off.



If the moonlight start time is specified as 8:00pm and the stop time is specified as 11:00pm then the times will be as follows:



8:00pm - 8:15pm = ramp up from off to 100%


8:15pm - 10:45pm = moonshine at 100%


10:45pm - 11:00pm = ramp down from 100% to off


The daylight and moonlight periods are independent, and can be discrete or overlap depending upon your preference. You can even turn either period off if desired. In the example above, I would set the moonlight start time to be 5:30pm. This will have the moonlight at 100% at the start of the daylight ramp down from 50%, avoiding a dark period after sunset before moonrise.





In DIY mode, each of the time periods have a built in 15 minute ramp at the start, and the last time period (L8) is only a 15 minute ramp to off with an end time that is preset to just before the L1 start time.



L1 - 6:00am to 8:00am at 20% = 6:00am to 6:15am ramp from off to 20%, 6:15am to 8:00am 20%


L2 - 8:00am to 10:00am at 50% = 8:00am to 8:15am ramp from 20% to 50%, 8:15am to 10:00am 50%


...


The abrupt change I was taking about only happens between L6 (white light) and L7 (moonlight). I can only guess that since there is the color change it turns off the white light and starts ramping up the moonlight. The abrupt change could be avoided by having the L6 be 0% letting the white light ramp down to off, then the moonlight would ramp up from off, but that has the dark period that I was wanting to avoid.



I still need to experiment some more with DIY mode on the old light that is working properly. There is a chance that the malfunction on my new lights is also impacting the DIY mode. So far, I have run through several tests for Hygger customer service, but they have not been able to duplicate my issue or correct my light. They had some reports of similar issues being corrected after certain exercises, but they have not impacted my lights.





If power is removed, the operating mode and settings will be preserved, but the time will not be maintained. The light will wait for you to set the time before it does anything, much as it did from the initial power up. Unfortunately this precludes us from using an external timer.

Hygger HG-957 Light settings


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I may need a new pair of glasses after this. But this is the most comprehensive Buyer Review I could find on Amazon:


> We wanted to have multiple on / off periods throughout the day, so DIY mode is the obvious choice for us. Getting this set up was rather frustrating.
> 
> But first, the summary:
> This light will always be fully off when first plugged in or power is restored. After power on, you must set the time before doing anything useful, but program settings are retained. So you can't use this on an external timer.
> ...


My take: It sounds possible to program a siesta period just using the hygger 957 built-in timer. But it would drive my nuts trying to do it. So, don't take this as a recommendation.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I may need a new pair of glasses after this. But this is the most comprehensive Buyer Review I could find on Amazon:
> 
> 
> My take: It sounds possible to program a siesta period just using the hygger 957 built-in timer. But it would drive my nuts trying to do it. So, don't take this as a recommendation.


Wow thanks for finding that!
Also despite the Hygger being a nice price and a great color spectrum for the price I really really really do not think i want to deal that complicated of a setup. Omg i got a headache just reading that.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It doesn't need to be that complicated. In the old days, 12-14 hours of cool-white fluorescent or natural light worked fine.
There's more than one way to have a successful planted aquarium. Even cheap LEDs are great, because they provide intense light and are packaged in a small, convenient energy-efficient lamp.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> It doesn't need to be that complicated. In the old days, 12-14 hours of cool-white fluorescent or natural light worked fine.
> There's more than one way to have a successful planted aquarium. Even cheap LEDs are great, because they provide intense light and are packaged in a small, convenient energy-efficient lamp.


I am almost debating doing that lol. I already have a external timer (Kasa) that came as a two pack for my betta tank light. I can set on off and siesta. 
I am totally on the fence about sumrise/sunset functions. Do the plants care? Not really. Fish.... not so sure about that. Probably depends on the fish. I am now considering either the b.spot sunfish or the apisto. macmasteri for my tank.

Most of the programmable setups are terrible on the lights. The sheer insanity of the hyggar makes it a no go. 

I need the light to have adequate PAR for the ~ 21-22 in depth, have enough projection to account for the variable width my tank, have durability and water proofing, have a good color spectrum finally.

The options on the market currently are mind boggling. It is hard to tell which functions have been added to light for the actual benefit of the fish and plants or just as selling points for the buyer, or even geared solely to "high tech" carefully controlled setups.

So i am going to go back to basics and focus on par, color spectrum, durability. Everything else with hopefully follow.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So i am going to go back to basics and focus on par, color spectrum, durability. Everything else with hopefully follow.


I just bought a brand new light about 7 months ago for the apisto tank. And it's performed well. I literally have nothing to complain about. But this has been a rough summer for algae and reading other posts, I realized that one of the drawbacks to the "catwalk" style light is that you can't just unscrew the bulbs, if you want to lower the wattage or swap out different colors. Not sure what I would do in the case of a 100 gallon tank as a floor lamp probably isn't the solution either. I just bought _a second light -_ a cheapish NICREW with some relatively simple programmable boxes checked (dimmable lights, 2 color combinations), but the main selling point after a week's use is that its default settings - the ones that I would have to use in conjunction with an external timer - are ones that I can live with.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I just bought a brand new light about 7 months ago for the apisto tank. And it's performed well. I literally have nothing to complain about. But this has been a rough summer for algae and reading other posts, I realized that one of the drawbacks to the "catwalk" style light is that you can't just unscrew the bulbs, if you want to lower the wattage or swap out different colors. Not sure what I would do in the case of a 100 gallon tank as a floor lamp probably isn't the solution either. I just bought _a second light -_ a cheapish NICREW with some relatively simple programmable boxes checked (dimmable lights, 2 color combinations), but the main selling point after a week's use is that its default settings - the ones that I would have to use in conjunction with an external timer - are ones that I can live with.


I am looking at the Nicrew lights including the C10 and the Sky. I also stumbled across the brand Pronoro.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09PQG4MZ9/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8&th=1&psc=1

I had heard the name from people who use there lights to grow indoor crops. Did not know they had gotton into the aquarium light business.
I have messaged them to get some more info on timer compatibility etc. The light also only come in 3 sizes. So for my tank which is approx 30in would have to use the 24in light. 

So just so i understand. You have your C10 hooked up to a external timer and that controls your siesta time? Or im wrong and the programming on the nicrew controls your siesta? 
Is your external timer dimmable? I am assuming that is a requirement so that the lights will ramp up/down for each photo period. 

In that case my Kasa timer will not work because it does not dim. Or i just say meh use is anyway and completly ignore the sunrise sunset functions.😬😅 
Once i get through this im never buying a light again (types this as I walk by my 20 gal sitting empty in my basement........)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So just so i understand. You have your C10 hooked up to a external timer and that controls your siesta time? Or im wrong and the programming on the nicrew controls your siesta?
> Is your external timer dimmable? I am assuming that is a requirement so that the lights will ramp up/down for each photo period.


No, my timer only controls the siesta period. In the end, the only advantage I have over my slightly older light is that the default has more whites and less blues. Wait, there are timers with dimmers???


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> No, my timer only controls the siesta period. In the end, the only advantage I have over my slightly older light is that the default has more whites and less blues. Wait, there are timers with dimmers???


Yup heres the link to the dimmer timer I would get since i can control it with the Kasa app just like the one for my betta tank.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09DT173R1/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

My thought is that if its dimmable then i can basically bypass the built in timer (if the light allows that) and ramp setting and control everything though Kasa's dead simple app.

So then your light does not ramp down before going into a siesta? Or does it because the light is responding to the ramp down from the built in timer but responding to the designated siesta time?

My journal has turned into a conversation about lights lmao.😅


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So then your light does not ramp down before going into a siesta? Or does it because the light is responding to the ramp down from the built in timer but responding to the designated siesta time?


It's responding to the designated siesta time as well as the designated on/off time. None of the built-in features (including sunrise/sunset) survive unplugging the unit. They will have to be reset once I stop using the external timer. My understanding is that all the "programmable" catwalk lights are like that - once you unplug it or even push the on/off button manually, you have to reset all the special features.

Oh but thank you for the link. I'll check it out.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Regarding ramp up and ramp down...I doubt fish care one way or the other. It's probably more of a "cool feature" meant to wow humans, not fish. 😂😂😂


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

maico996 said:


> Regarding ramp up and ramp down...I doubt fish care one way or the other. It's probably more of a "cool feature" meant to wow humans, not fish. 😂😂😂


I figured, but of course you read posts and blogs from people who write 3 pages about how abrupt light changes have given fish heart attacks and cause stress........ 
Either way most lights these days come with options so why not use it lol

I am leaning towards Nicrew because out of all the lighting companies I have messaged they ACTUALLY RESPONDED OMG!!!! 😂

Now I just have to figure out which one fits best. I have been bouncing between the C10, SkyLED and have still been keeping the Pronoro on the back burner as as a option.
I know the Sky is not necessarily waterproof but is a stronger light overall. Depth to substrate for me will be approx 18"-20" deep depending on light bracket height. I want to have adiquate light levels at that depth.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The kasa arrives tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works with the Nicrew C10.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> The kasa arrives tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works with the Nicrew C10.


Lol you wasted no time ordering that.
Fingers and toes crossed 😂 that it works. I love the regular Kasa i have for the betta tank. Programming. Is. So. Easy.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Gonna bite the bullet and order the Nicrew SkyLED plus. Based on the PAR readings I have dug up I think the Sky will better handle the "complexities" of a bowfront. The widest point of the bow is 14" then tapers to 10" on the ends. The 36" is also a deeper tank. I dont remember the bracket height for the Sky but depth from light to substrate could range from 18"-20". 
This was all before I spent two hours researching how hoods effect light values....... another mind boggling read that basically sums up to it does but not as much as you think as to negate the proactive advantages of the hood. Plus I just had that hood made.... it stays lol.

So Ill order the Nicrew, the Kasa timer and begin breaking down the tank.


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## Rockfella (Sep 7, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I have had hoods on tanks for so long, and i am not wholly sure my tank would be 100% safe with out a hood.
> 
> Heres my 36gal and the new hood.
> View attachment 75409
> ...


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

............It is a fake silk plant from petsmart lol. That tank used to house my displaced shubunkin which = no live plants.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So I have about 14 tabs open trying to decide between the macmasteri and the sunfish.......... and at the end of the day I just cant decide. 

So in my desperation i have started considering the notion of housing them together in the community tank........ I emailed Zimmermans about the idea. He just emailed me back last night here were his thoughts on stocking.

"_I would go with about 10-12 of the two small sunfish and then a group of 6-8 schooling fish. This could be a native minnow species or a minnow or tetra group of a tropical variety. Could also add some algae eaters like sailfin molly or american flagfish."_

So I emailed him back with the posed question. I know technically both species should be considered the "main show fish" of their own tank.
One of the main things that keeps making me lean more towards the apistos is personality. Most of my fish keeping has been with koi, goldfish and comets which are the defination of a "wet pet". I just dont how i would adjust to fish that has the possibility of but just hiding all the time.
The _lepomis _sunfish all have big personalities and can be as aggressive as cichlids, while the smaller _Enneacanthus_ are peaceful, make great community fish but can be timid.

Either way I need to figure put my plan so i know if I need to throw in a heater or not with my amazon order.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I dunno. That would be a lot of apistos for a 36 gallon tank. Maybe sunfish can be less territorial and still have personalities?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I dunno. That would be a lot of apistos for a 36 gallon tank. Maybe sunfish can be less territorial and still have personalities?


Lol no. I think Zimmermans fish numbers are a bit high.

I didnt explaim that previous post very well. 
My thought would be if it would work
pair of the apisto,
2 or 3 of the b.spot sunfish,
6-8 of some form of shcooling fish.

That would be my thought of a good mix. If that wont work then I will decide between the the apistos and b.spots. Possibly lean towards the apistos and get one of the larger lepomis for my pond like this guy for example








Or if I wanted i could switch gears completely and house a single one these guys Ozark Longear max size approx 6".

But if i did that I would be losing out on the community tank and the fun behaviors between the fish.

My ideal solution would be to decide which piece of furniture i can live without. Set up my old 20 gal for the b.spots, keep the apistos in the 36gal community tank and get the Ozark for my pond.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I like your ideal solution. Not at all sure I would mix apistos with another highly intelligent species.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I like your ideal solution. Not at all sure I would mix apistos with another highly intelligent species.


So do I lol. I am pretty sure I can live without one of the living room chairs I hate the thing anyways lol.

Anyway in my response email to Zimmerman I asked about how shy/interactive his captive breed are. 

I will see how the macmasteri look at my LFS. I have high hopes as they are a fish only business and do have fish health as priority with who they get fish from. 

Based on my current info and thoughts i am leaning apisto.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So basically I am going crazy and....... switching back to native fish 😂😂😅. Im sure anyone reading this wants me to make up my damn mind already lol.

I just need to not get distracted _cough_@johnwesley0_cough*apistos*cough_.
So new goal decide between these two stocking ideas.

Stocking Option #1
3-4 Bluespotted Sunfish
3-4 Blackbanded Sunfish
8 Undecided schooling/shoaling fish something colorful & social.

(Sailfian mollies or flag fish also told are options heater?
This would be a full community tank. The b.banded are more outgoing then the b.spots. I dont think either will be the "wet pet" bit they also wont hide 70% of the time.

Stocking Option #2
1 Ozark Longear Sunfish
Group of schooling/shoaling fish.

This is based off info on Zimmermans facebook page and i have emailed him again to verify. According to what I have red they are more peaceful species in the lepomis family along with the dollar, orange spot, notrhern and bantamn. This would fit more of the big personality fish i am familiar with. Slightly less interesting community combo then first idea.
So.............down the rabbit hole i go. Through this entire insane process of me choosing fish my solution has been "rearrange entire house make room for more tanks" the response from family members has been "eviction"

Anyway this will save me $20 on heater. I will have $38 to use at my LFS for hardscape, schooling fish (if i dont order those from Zimmermans) and possibly a sand subatrate? Have to check if sunfish like gravel or sand.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

New Plant List
Crypts

Albida Costota (foreground)
Pink Flamingo (foreground)
Retrospiralis (background)
Hudoroi (midground)
Echinodorus

Rose (background)
Major (background right)
Tenellus (caepet)
Bucephalandra

Cascade King
Belindae
Black Pearl
Anubias
- Coffeefolia


Valisneria Spiralis Leopard (background left corner)
Tiger Lotus (background center)

Stems

Hygrophilia Corymbosa Compacta
Rotala Colorata
Persicaria sp. Kawagoeanum
Hygrophila Pinnatifida
Alternanthera Renickii Variegated

Planning on ordering everything expect the stems from Buce. Of course Buce is currently out of the val, micro sword, rose, retrospiralis and Belindae.
My LFS has the microsword looks a bit rough but not too bad. They also get rose in but that would not be till their next wednesday.

The stems are from a etsy seller that i have a coupon for.
So I am waiting for buce to get some plants back in stock.

I will probably be using the remainder of the Caribsea supernaturals for a cap. I have 2 colors left dont really want to mix them but oh well.

First one is Rio Grande which they of course dont make anymore which is strange because i just purchased it when i set up my betta tank. Its .3 -.5mm sized so with in the recommendation of .2-.4mm. Probably about 4lbs left of that.

The other is color was used in 36gal currently. Hopefully the Rio Grande is enough to cover the the bottom. I have looked in STS and other sands but not sure if that is what im after.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Omg would you believe it actually physical proof that this tank is taking visible steps towards being a native Walsted tank.








Heres how it looked 2.5 hours ago when I started draining it.
Here it is now








Outside ready to get hosed and scrubbed out. 








I would really like to go back in time and ask myself what the hell I wad thinking when I put all this gravel in the tank in 2013. I mean thats a 2 gal pail and 2 of those oh so handy barf pans from the hospital. What. Was. Wrong. With. Me.😑
The plants and the light are being ordered next monday. Hopefully buce has the retrospiralis and leopard val back in by then. I dont want to pay extra shipping for ordering from multiple sites. 

I will get my hardscape laid out. I think I need another really tall rock. I have to get a pic up of what I have so far. 

So cleaning out the tank has been added to my "must complete list" on top of all the plant moving and dividing im doing today😒 lol oh well.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So cleaning out the tank turned into "only thing you are getting sorta done today."
Its back inside and the stand got mopped under for the first time in like 10 years.








I have to get new suction cups for the intake and sprayer bar.
Also hardscape layout.

Fist however honest thoughts from whoever reads this: Stocking choice.

Zimmermans got back to me this evening. He said both options would work, either the b.spots, b.banded and schooling or ozark longear and schooling. He had some suggestions for schooling (native and LFS options) for both. So here were suggestions.

B. Spot & B.Banded Sunfish

Southern Redbelly Dace
Rainbow Shiner
Metalic Shiner
Yellowfin Shiner
Essentially any if the Pteronotropis shiners but the ones above he either has or can get easily. At first glance i am rather partial to the metalic, rainbow is nice as well. Could also do a mix.

Ozark Longear Sunfish

Spotfin Shiner
Steelcolor Shiner
Rosyside Dace
Redside Dace
These are all larger and very active to work with the longear. At first glance I like the steelcolor and either of the dace. The longear is Brian Zimmerans personal fav. fish so thats what he said he would lean towards lol.

So thats my dilemma. Two native stocking options. Im too lazy to post pics of them so look em up if you can and tell me what you think. I am totally torn between the two options. (This of course after I told Diana I was 100% settled on the b.sopts when i asked her about chelated iron source)😬😑


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Ok so I lied I am not too lazy to post pics and basic info of all the native fish I am considering. So hopefully this will help me decide what I am going with and get thoughts from anyone reading this.

Stocking Option #1
3-4 BlueSpotted Sunfish








Very peaceful can be shy are active fish in community tanks. Max size 3-4"

3-4 BlackBanded Sunfish








More bold then the b.spot like to hang out in front of plants can be more interactive. Used to be called the poor mans angel fish. Max size 2-3"

Schooling options.
8-10 of a single species or a mix.
Raimbow shiners








Schooling fish max size 3"
Most vibrant colors only during spawning.

Metalic Shiner








Max size approx 2.5"

Yellowfin Shiner








Max Size 3"

Southern Redbelly Dace








Max Size 2"

Stocking Option #2
1 Ozark Longear Sunfish








Must be kept either singurally or in large tanks of 6 or more.
Interactive fish max size 6-8".

Schooling options must be larger and more active to compete with Sunfish.
6-10 of one or a mix.

Steelcolor Shiner








Max Size 4-6"

Redside Dace








Max size 5"

Rosyside Dace








Max size 4"

Ran out of space to post the Spotfin but its also my least favorite lol.

My main concern is that stocking option #2 will have too many large fish for a 36gal. However I have a very skewed perspective on stocking. A 6-8" sunfish is much different then a 6-8" comet, especially in a planted tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oh gosh, you're twisting my arm (no, not really.) I dunno. I keep coming back to the blue spotted sunfish. The long-ear is striking but a single, solitary one would look lonely IMO in a 36 gallon tank with schoolers. With the blue spot, you know right away what you're looking at (it's not an oscar, it's not an angelfish - it looks like a sunfish.)


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Oh gosh, you're twisting my arm (no, not really.) I dunno. I keep coming back to the blue spotted sunfish. The long-ear is striking but a single, solitary one would look lonely IMO in a 36 gallon tank with schoolers. With the blue spot, you know right away what you're looking at (it's not an oscar, it's not an angelfish - it looks like a sunfish.)


So your thoughts are b.spot only (not a mix of b.spots and b.bandeds) and 1 or 2 groups of schooling fish.
So maybe 4-5 b.spot sunfish and 2 groups of schooling fish?
Thoughts on the schooling fish? Im leaning towards the redbelly dace and the metalic shiners.
So possible stocking 
4-5 b.spot
6-8 metalic shiners
6-8 redbelly dace

So to confuse things a little more there is one more sunfish in this family Enneacanthus obesus or the Banded Sunfish. 
Now for some reason these guys dont seem to be talked about as much as the other too but they are stunning almost a honey color with simular spots to the b.spot and fainter bands.








I have asked Zimmerman about them so I will see what I hear back from him.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So your thoughts are b.spot only (not a mix of b.spots and b.bandeds) and 1 or 2 groups of schooling fish.
> So maybe 4-5 b.spot sunfish and 2 groups of schooling fish?


That's a fair interpretation of my feeling. I'm not a big fan of variety. The nice lady at PetSmart kept trying to sell me other colors of glo-fish danios, but I kept saying "No thanks. I just want the orange ones."


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> That's a fair interpretation of my feeling. I'm not a big fan of variety. The nice lady at PetSmart kept trying to sell me other colors of glo-fish danios, but I kept saying "No thanks. I just want the orange ones."


Lol thats like the exact opposite of me. I am a collector. I do not have that thing where people landscape and only have like 3 different plant varieties. Nope i collect every new one. I actually counted I have 96 different hosta lmao. 

Well i will continue to give it some thought and figure out which way i want to go. Always interesting to hear what other people would go with.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So despite being a artist and knowing all the principles of design, movement, etc. I AM FAILING AT HARDSCAPING 😖😤😤😫
Omg i spent over two hours trying to lay this thing out and have hated every one. 
I think i need one more piece of drift wood something really tall to make use of this ranks height.








I am trying to make it interesting and interactive for the fish while also not using up substrate space, which i am really struggling with with the rocks.
So far only 2 pieces of spider wood and 3 moss rocks. My LFS is closed sunday so hopefully i can get their monday and see what i can get to add to this.

Some more pics of the hardscape as i tried to figure out which pieces worked best which way.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

It takes practice for sure. Think of it as staging, designing a stage by creating dramatic structures.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> It takes practice for sure. Think of it as staging, designing a stage by creating dramatic structures.


Well I tried again. Got something I dont totally hate. I think it is a bit too centered in the tank.
Top then front.
















And side view









Ignore the small rock in corner. 
Still think i need a piece of driftwood but I think im good with rocks dont want to take up any more planting space.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Pretty good. You need varieties of sizes, large, medium, and small to create drama. You can superglue some rocks together to make a bigger rock. Fill in the cracks with cotton & superglue and then cover with sand or little rocks to conceal the crack.

You'll need to superglue the wood to the rocks as well so it doesn't float.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

What is wrong with me, here i am once again posting a update at almost 1am. 

Finally got the Nicrew Sky light today. It looks bright to me but I am also a horrible judge. PAR readings are supposed to be around 50 at 15". The bow is a bit deeper, about 17" or 18" so hopefully this will be sufficient for all my plant growth, color etc with out algae issues. 
The Kasa timer dimmer is going back to amazon......... i cant really figure out how to use it and I honestly dont think the Nicrew Sky actually dims???? I think all it does is go through its presets of brightness (100% 80% 60% etc)
So i have the normal Kasa timer and that seems to work fine so I will just use that no sunrise or sunset oh well.

Amazon Prime early access sale is going on and the Fluval 3.0 is NOT on sale so thanks Amazon prime for NOTHING 😂😭😬 lmao

I will finally be getting to my LFS tomorrow to get another piece of drift wood and maybe one more moss rock.
The headscape I laid out has... grown on me.... i guess. If i can find the pieces i am imagining then I think I will be satisfied with it. 

Plant order will be placed.... tomorrow.... maybe.. I dont want to risk them sitting in the mail over the weekend but I am also not sure if I want to wait till monday and risk something going out of stock.
If I order tomorrow they should be here by Saturday at the latest. That gives me time to finalize my hardscape and get the dirt ready. 
Then fish order will be placed a week or so after the plants go in. 
I am still waffling between the b.spots, b.banded and longear.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> The Kasa timer dimmer is going back to amazon......... i cant really figure out how to use it and I honestly dont think the Nicrew Sky actually dims???? I think all it does is go through its presets of brightness (100% 80% 60% etc)


Did you get as far as the steady green light on the Kasa? I think once I got mine working the readings were also in increments of 100%, 75%, 50% etc.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Did you get as far as the steady green light on the Kasa? I think once I got mine working the readings were also in increments of 100%, 75%, 50% etc.


I believe I did. I dont know if you daw this with your light but the Sky made a pretty aggressive buzzing sound when I was attempting to calibrate the dimming. 
I also couldnt figure out if it was the fade setting or sunrise or sunset that controlled the dimming. It made me think the sunrise/sunset was tied to ACTUAL sunrise sunset as according to your phones time?
Also the dimmer is $22 on a fish tank that is running over my $200 budget. So if I scrap that my light was $45, my buce plant order got knocked down to $88 after a 10% off coupon in my email last night, $20 in plants from another site and the rest for fish.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

No buzzing sound. Just goes to show you how every version of every product is different. You're still using an external timer, right?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> No buzzing sound. Just goes to show you how every version of every product is different. You're still using an external timer, right?


Yes i have the original Kasa timer it was a 2 pack. It works just fine no buzzing no issues setting sets siesta times etc just does not dim, and it saves me $22.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes i have the original Kasa timer it was a 2 pack. It works just fine no buzzing no issues setting sets siesta times etc just does not dim, and it saves me $22.


That's too funny. The Kasa timer works for you, but I couldn't get it going. The dimmer works for me, but not for you.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Ok so for some reason my post keeps deleting itself so take three 😬😡

So things are actually happening now. My plant order from Buce and pearlingplants are scheduled to arrive on Tuesday. I went to my LfS yesterday and got 2 pots of microsword to add to the 2 swords, 3 crypts, val and tiger lotus. Hopefully this will be enough agressive root growth to get the tank stable.

I need another piece of driftwood but my LFS wont have any in till next week and I think their shipments come in on Wednesday. I dont think I want to add anymore rocks I think i am already at the 10% for hardscpe coverage.
Side








Front








I really think i need another interesting, twisted piece of driftwood going either left or right havent decided that yet.
The 2 wood pieces in there should not float as they were in the tank with my comet. The piece balanced on the rock is pretty stable but should I glue is anyway.
I really dont want to have to add a piece of wood in after the plants but ir doesnt look I will have a choice.

Now on to fish selection again.
I am reposting my options based on what Zimmermans has currently.

Option #1
































Either all four or 3-4 B.spots and and 6-8 of both the Redbelly Dace and Rainbow Shiners (leaning towards this group if i pick this option). He does not currently have the metalic shiners.
The sunfish are $8 each I think have to get prices for the the schoolers.

Option #2
























One male longear and 4 each of the Steelcolor shiners and redside dace.

I am still bouncing between the two options like a broken pinball. I love the idea of option #1 with the full community tank. (Though i guess they are both community tanks)
I also love the colorful wet pet that is option 2.
So i have at least 2 weeks to make up my indecisive mind lol. As usual thoughts are always appreciated.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Ok so price point may play a bigger role then what i thought holy hell.

4 Bluespotted Sunfish $32
6-8 Rainbow Shiners $6 each so $36-$48
6-8 Redbelly Dace $5 each so $30-40
$98-120 total prior to shipping
Shipping total $118-$140

1 Ozark Longear Sunfish $10
4 Steelcolor Shiner $24
4 Redside Dace $20
$54 
Shipping total $74

Shipping for either $20

I would certainly go with the lower amount for #1. I could cut put one of the schoolers completely and then increase the number of the remaining to 8.
So 
b.spot with 8 dace = $72
B.spit wuth 7 dace = $67
B.spot with 6 dace = $62

B.spot with 8 shiners = $80
B.spot with 7 shiners = $74
B.spot with 6 shiners = $68

Cutting down to one schooler seems...... boring to me and getting rid of the schoolers completely seems really.... boring.... dumb.

So if i am looking at this from just checked "my money tree says harvest over come back next year sign" then option #1 is about $100 over budget and optiom #2 is only $50 over budget. 

So............. ima go out and give the money tree a good kick and if that doesnt work im pulling out the saw. 💸💰💵😭😬😩


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So guess what was in my email this am..... a "out for delivery" notice from pearlingplants! The buce delivery is still scheduled for tomorrow go figure. 

So what does everyone here reading this think my best best bet would be. 
Leave them in their packaging till tomorrow when the buce order arrives? Put them in a bucket till tomorrow? Toss them in my betta tank till tomorrow? Get soil in the tank and plant them in a imitation of the dry start method? 

I am calling my LFS today to see what day they are getting the driftwood in because that is another thing I have to contend with.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Have you seen @dwalstad 's post this a.m. that PearlingPlants is mainly for tanks with CO2 injection? Does that pertain to you?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

johnwesley0 said:


> Have you seen @dwalstad 's post this a.m. that PearlingPlants is mainly for tanks with CO2 injection? Does that pertain to you?


I think pearlingplants is a website that sells plants.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Have you seen @dwalstad 's post this a.m. that PearlingPlants is mainly for tanks with CO2 injection? Does that pertain to you?


Yes pearlingplants is a site that sells mainly stem plants. I had a 25% off coupon.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Ok so price point may play a bigger role then what i thought holy hell.
> 
> 4 Bluespotted Sunfish $32
> 6-8 Rainbow Shiners $6 each so $36-$48
> ...


Why not go fishing?


PlentyCoup said:


> Ok so price point may play a bigger role then what i thought holy hell.
> 
> 4 Bluespotted Sunfish $32
> 6-8 Rainbow Shiners $6 each so $36-$48
> ...


Why not go fishing? You can set up one of these with some crackers inside of it and catch lots of small, local fish. The fun part can be identifying them.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes pearlingplants is a site that sells mainly stem plants. I had a 25% off coupon.


I guess what I'm saying is that you have no problem finding plants suitable to your set-up?

LOL. I forgot what your original question was.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Why not go fishing?
> 
> Why not go fishing? You can set up one of these with some crackers inside of it and catch lots of small, local fish. The fun part can be identifying them.
> View attachment 75627


Lots of reasons lol.
Time mainly, I just dont have the time to drive around and look for these fish. I am sure lots of people would say how fun that would be but it just sounds super stressfull and something i do not at all have the time for. I dont even know how easily a I could find these fish in my area.
Also the sunfish, the b.spot in particular do not adjust well usually to living in an aquarium if they are wild caught i would end of with a tank full of fish i would never see. 
The sunfish from Zimmermans are ones he breeds. I am also guaranteed healthy fish and supporting a native fish activist. 

I have thought about cutting option 1 down to 3 sunfish and 8 dace and waiting until he has metalic shiners in.
This would drop option one down to $54-64 which would put it at a closer price point to option #2.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that you have no problem finding plants suitable to your set-up?
> 
> LOL. I forgot what your original question was.


Lol no problem i forget whose post im responding too half the time.

My main question is what is my best course of action to take with my plant order that is arriving today when my other order is arriving tomorrow and I still have to get a piece of drift wood.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

It's always harder to catch the fish that you want. I think FernKing is from Florida where he can definitely catch some amazing native and invasive fish.




FernKing said:


> Why not go fishing?
> 
> Why not go fishing? You can set up one of these with some crackers inside of it and catch lots of small, local fish. The fun part can be identifying them.
> View attachment 75627


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> It's always harder to catch the fish that you want. I think FernKing is from Florida where he can definitely catch some amazing native and invasive fish.


Lol didnt think of that im sure its much easier to do so in Florida. It is alot harder and we have a much smaller selection of aquarium worthy fish here in Michigan.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Lol no problem i forget whose post im responding too half the time.
> 
> My main question is what is my best course of action to take with my plant order that is arriving today when my other order is arriving tomorrow and I still have to get a piece of drift wood.


I guess I would proceed with the DSM. You've got the dirt. You've got the tank. You don't have to worry about fish yet. Do you have a cover to keep the soil moist?


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Lol didnt think of that im sure its much easier to do so in Florida. It is alot harder and we have a much smaller selection of aquarium worthy fish here in Michigan.


Really? Are you by the Great Lakes at all?


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> It's always harder to catch the fish that you want. I think FernKing is from Florida where he can definitely catch some amazing native and invasive fish.


Exactly. Florida is pretty wild. You can dig a big pond and small fish just eventually show up 😂


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Aaron


FernKing said:


> Really? Are you by the Great Lakes at all?


Yes i am actually. Im in Saginaw so technically im part of the Great Lakes Bay Region. About a 20min drive to the Saginaw Bay. I drive over the Tittabawassee and Shiawassee rivers almost daily as well as the Saginaw River but i personally would not touch the Saginaw River with a 20 foot pole. 
So yes i could certainly catch fish i have no shortage of water bodies around me but i have no desire to add that stressor on top of everything else lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So the plants are still in the bag. They look good so i figured they are ok for one more night and i can take pics and plant everything including the buce order. Also get a hold of my LFS about the drift wood.
I did get the appox 1" of soil in the tank. 50/50 mix of compost and play sand, the compost was just sifted it through a old kitchen strainer.
Heres the plants in the bag.








And heres how they were packaged for anyone interested
















Got another 25% off coupon woot.
Heres the tank with the soil.








Makes the hardscape look much better, still need another wood piece. 

So to top everything off heres my idiot, how dumb can be moment. 
Remember that new hood i had made at my LFS. They even cut a little hold with a nice little lid to drop food in........ well I just NOW noticed that the feed hole sits directly onto of the support bar that runs across the center of the tank........ HOW THE HELL DID I NOT NOTICE THIS😤😬OMG what is wrong with me. 

So my question, the tank is 30" long, do I need that support bar or can i cut it out? The new hood is plexiglass. Was that bar their just to support the weight of the old fluorescent lighthoods?










So....... im going to bed feeling very tired and very dumb and lol


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Lol, don’t cut the support bar. That’s there to support the glass from the weight of the water. The glass would bow and break otherwise.

are you going to cap off the dirt/soil?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Lol, don’t cut the support bar. That’s there to support the glass from the weight of the water. The glass would bow and break otherwise.
> 
> are you going to cap off the dirt/soil?


I knew i wouldnt be able to cut the bar but i can dream lol.
Ill take it back to them for them to cut a new feed hole.......this time OFF CENTERED😬

Yes it is getting capped lol. Was just planning on putting down the cap after i had placed the plants. Just seemed a bit as far as planting goes but at the sane time i know i have watch on not planting the crowns of some plants too deep. 

I have roughly 4 lbs of Caribsea naturals Rio Grande. It says its 3-5mm as well but i feel as though its smaller maybe 1-3mm.. 

I also have 50lb of caribseas Gemstone Creek 3-5mm. I have probably 6-8lb available. The rest is sitting in a giant bucket waiting for me to sift through it. At one point when failing to grow plants with goldfish i tried potting the plants and using that Ecocomplete from Caribsea, a black course rock a friend had given me. Well all that happened was the pots getting upended into the rest of the gravel. The mix of the 2 colors looked awful. I hate it enough that I am willing to spend a hour or so every night sorting through the gravel and picking out the black. I probably actually only have maybe 35-40lbs left. I probably tossed close to 10lbs that was at the very bottom of my tank and was too mixed with the black gravel to bother sorting through.

Anyway I will post a pic if both caps side by side to try and get a size comparison and also color choice. The moss rocks technically dont really go with either gravel color. My LFS has giant wood crates of probably 15 different rocks but i think i liked the look and craggyness of the moss rock best at the time.

Caribsea doesn't make either color anymore so i have base sizing off other sites.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Heres the pic of the 2 gravel side by side that i ment to post earlier. Think im going to go with the gemstone creek.








My camera on my phone is awful. 
The buce order arrived so i will be posting that unpacking and all the plants.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Started adding the plants at 6:30 and finished at 10:30 and there are finally plants in my tank!!!
Heres some photos from the Buce order.








Echinodorus Major








Stunning Anubias Coffeefolia.








Leopard Val








Bit disappointed. The crypt Pink Flamingo tissue culture will see how it does.








The only plant that didnt arrive well the Tiger Lotus. All the leaves were melted roots and bulb look ok hopefully is bounces back. 
















In and out of the packaging.
The houdori and costa crypt were really nice. Hopefully i spaced this apart enough. I thing the echindorus major could be spread out a bit more. 
Heres the order from PearlingPlants.








Sent some extras that i have to ask what they are.

Heres everything in the tank.








I will take some better pics in the morning and probably bemoan my placement of some things. 
The pump isnt running yet and i have to finish filling it up and add in the floating tiger but it us hopefully a start.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Started adding the plants at 6:30 and finished at 10:30 and there are finally plants in my tank!!!
> Heres some photos from the Buce order.
> View attachment 75644
> 
> ...


I wouldn’t worry about the tiger lotus too much. That little “bulb” has more energy than you think. Don’t bury it completely. It will appreciate the soil and hopefully give you some beautiful leaves soon.
The pink crypts I think are so popular that people are just trying to sell them no matter what. I bought two, at a very expensive price, and they completely melted down to the substrate. They might be dead. I think the enthusiasm to sell them is coming at the price of selling people developed, healthy plants. It’s a new fad and people selling them are getting sloppy.
Learn from me, when you do your water changes, siphon water from the BOTTOM. Don’t scoop it from the top. I had sick, anaerobic water 1 inch above the gravel and beautiful, perfect water floating on top. I didn’t notice, even when testing my water, until things got sick below the 1 inch line. I also started to use a turkey baster to get water from the bottom of the tank for testing to give me a more accurate picture of what’s going on with the water and soil.
You’ll probably need a floating plant. I recommend American Frogbit. It’s cute (looks like little lily pads), much bigger than duckweed and isn’t as messy and nasty. It also thrives in cooler water compared to its South American cousin. It also sucks up ammonia like nothing else! It keeps the water column CLEAN!
The red plant looks like Alternanthera Reineckii 'Lilacina'. If that’s what it is I’m very interested in how it performs.
Looks good! I can’t wait to see how it all grows in!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> I wouldn’t worry about the tiger lotus too much. That little “bulb” has more energy than you think. Don’t bury it completely. It will appreciate the soil and hopefully give you some beautiful leaves soon.
> The pink crypts I think are so popular that people are just trying to sell them no matter what. I bought two, at a very expensive price, and they completely melted down to the substrate. They might be dead. I think the enthusiasm to sell them is coming at the price of selling people developed, healthy plants. It’s a new fad and people selling them are getting sloppy.
> Learn from me, when you do your water changes, siphon water from the BOTTOM. Don’t scoop it from the top. I had sick, anaerobic water 1 inch above the gravel and beautiful, perfect water floating on top. I didn’t notice, even when testing my water, until things got sick below the 1 inch line. I also started to use a turkey baster to get water from the bottom of the tank for testing to give me a more accurate picture of what’s going on with the water and soil.
> You’ll probably need a floating plant. I recommend American Frogbit. It’s cute (looks like little lily pads), much bigger than duckweed and isn’t as messy and nasty. It also thrives in cooler water compared to its South American cousin. It also sucks us ammonia like nothing else! It keeps the water column CLEAN!
> ...


I figure the tiger lotus will be go. Any plants that has a bulb, tunor, or rhizome are usually some of the most resilient. The bulbs all felt firm and the roots looked good. 

I have hopes for the pink flamingo. I know what your saying about the hype and certain plants. Their is another crypt Pink Panther that has huge hype. I have had success with other supposed hard to grow or crypts. I have wendtii bronze, green gecko and nurii phang mutated. The phang is growing really well and has sent off baby plants while the other two are leggy and not growing as well.
I am thinking of moving one of the crypts to the 36gal along with one the baby phang to see how they do. So i am hoping the pink flamingo turns out like my phang did. Also i have hope for the quality of the buce plants. There were at least 3-6 plants in each pot from buce. The cascade king that I paied $24 for had 3 nice plants in it which was a wonderful surprise.








I have 2 other buce and 1 or 2 more crypts i want to order from buce. 
I will certainly watch that with the water changes.
The Floating Tiger is actually a rare striped Frogbit. I will have to post pics of it but i absolutely love it as a floater.
I cant wait to see what the Alternatia Renckii Varigated does.
These are 2 other plants from PearlingPlants








The left if the rotala colorta i think and the right might be a bacopa but i will check with them to see. 
I will post better pics of the tank today and test the water.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> I figure the tiger lotus will be go. Any plants that has a bulb, tunor, or rhizome are usually some of the most resilient. The bulbs all felt firm and the roots looked good.
> 
> I have hopes for the pink flamingo. I know what your saying about the hype and certain plants. Their is another crypt Pink Panther that has huge hype. I have had success with other supposed hard to grow or crypts. I have wendtii bronze, green gecko and nurii phang mutated. The phang is growing really well and has sent off baby plants while the other two are leggy and not growing as well.
> I am thinking of moving one of the crypts to the 36gal along with one the baby phang to see how they do. So i am hoping the pink flamingo turns out like my phang did. Also i have hope for the quality of the buce plants. There were at least 3-6 plants in each pot from buce. The cascade king that I paied $24 for had 3 nice plants in it which was a wonderful surprise.
> ...


I want to see the striped frogbit! Is it the South American or North American frogbit?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> I want to see the striped frogbit! Is it the South American or North American frogbit?


Its Amazon Frogbit. I personally think its even better then the regular frogbit because its tiger strips indicate iron deficiency before any other plant in the tank. I used to be able to only find 2 seller for it but now i see it more. Hell if you wanted some and wanted to pay shipping i could try to send you a bag full in a week or so when my population of it explodes again. 









So finished getting the tank set up. Its all filled, got the Floating Tiger added, got the pump running again. Things are looking a bit more cloudy but still pretty clear. 








Heres some hopefully better close ups. 








The blank spot next to the rock is were the melted tiger lotus is. Buce got back to and agreed with my thoughts that the bulb would probably bounce back but extended my DOA for 2 weeks in case it didnt. 








I am in love with the Coffeefolia anubias and not just because of the name lol. 








So all thats left is test the water to see where it stands. I think I will give it a week and half and then place my STILL undecided fish order.
Still boucing between 3 b.spot and 8 dace and order of shiners next year or 1 longear, 4 shiner and 4 dace.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Its Amazon Frogbit. I personally think its even better then the regular frogbit because its tiger strips indicate iron deficiency before any other plant in the tank. I used to be able to only find 2 seller for it but now i see it more. Hell if you wanted some and wanted to pay shipping i could try to send you a bag full in a week or so when my population of it explodes again.
> View attachment 75664
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the offer, but I like the North American frogbit because it likes cooler temperatures. Easier for me to grow without heaters. Variegated leaves make me happy and I love any plant with variegation.
FYI here is what the anubias “coffeefolia” is named after. The leaves look just like wild coffee plants. We have several species of coffee that grow in Florida. I know of three that are native and grow wild. I grow the native kind in my yard. It’s a pretty shrub and birds eat the berries. Yes it’s a 1st cousin to coffee plants where coffee comes from 😎☕


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Thank you for the offer, but I like the North American frogbit because it likes cooler temperatures. Easier for me to grow without heaters. Variegated leaves make me happy and I love any plant with variegation.
> FYI here is what the anubias “coffeefolia” is named after. The leaves look just like wild coffee plants. We have several species of coffee that grow in Florida. I know of three that are native and grow wild. I grow the native kind in my yard. It’s a pretty shrub and birds eat the berries. Yes it’s a 1st cousin to coffee plants where coffee comes from 😎☕
> View attachment 75669


Thats so cool I would love to be able to grow a coffee plant cousin lol.
Well we will see how the Amazon Frogbit grows in this unheated tank lol.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Thats so cool I would love to be able to grow a coffee plant cousin lol.
> Well we will see how the Amazon Frogbit grows in this unheated tank lol.


Read Diana’s shrimp bowl tutorial where she talks about both kinds of frogbit and her troubleshooting. I found it informative.


https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/shrimprcs2017.pdf


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Day two*
Things are pretty murky looking. Tonight around 10pm will be 48 hours since setup.









Heres ammonia test








Looks to be about .50ppm.
I did not test it the night I got it all set up.
No water changes yet gonna let the plants and bacteria do their job. I am putting fish order in about week and half too two weeks. I am leaning toward option #2 currently. I just cant get over the longear and if i have my way i will be getting my 20gal tall set up and i can get the b.spots and dace or shiners in that. So thats were everything stands currently.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

That's not a bad reading for Day1 but two weeks may still be pushing things. I would start pricing some lucky bamboo (the tallest stalks you can find) for a little added support.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> *Day two*
> Things are pretty murky looking. Tonight around 10pm will be 48 hours since setup.
> View attachment 75670
> 
> ...


Did you boil your driftwood first?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> That's not a bad reading for Day1 but two weeks may still be pushing things. I would start pricing some lucky bamboo (the tallest stalks you can find) for a little added support.


I will probably have to wait at least 3 weeks. Just need to make sure i dont miss Brians last ship date I thought it was in november but it might be december. I have to check.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Did you boil your driftwood first?


No this driftwood was not boiled and i have never boiled any driftwood i have user. Usually i just deal with the tannins and hold it down with rocks. 
This driftwood was in this tank previously with the comet.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Go figure. I had done a survey on buce to enter to win one of there tanks. Well i didnt but i got a 20% off all plants coupon, only good through the 27th as thanks for participating. So i have a week to hope they get buce Black Pearl, Catherine and Belindea and crypt retospiralis back in stock.
Anyone think i should add any other plants to see what grows so i can maybe take advantage of the coupon that of course had to show up AFTER my main plant order 😬


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Go figure. I had done a survey on buce to enter to win one of there tanks. Well i didnt but i got a 20% off all plants coupon, only good through the 27th as thanks for participating. So i have a week to hope they get buce Black Pearl, Catherine and Belindea and crypt retospiralis back in stock.
> Anyone think i should add any other plants to see what grows so i can maybe take advantage of the coupon that of course had to show up AFTER my main plant order 😬


I just checked their website. Get a “Marble Queen“ sword. Variegated aquatic plants are rare and that one is beautiful. There’s also Crypt “Tropica“.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Go figure. I had done a survey on buce to enter to win one of there tanks. Well i didnt but i got a 20% off all plants coupon, only good through the 27th as thanks for participating. So i have a week to hope they get buce Black Pearl, Catherine and Belindea and crypt retospiralis back in stock.
> Anyone think i should add any other plants to see what grows so i can maybe take advantage of the coupon that of course had to show up AFTER my main plant order 😬


I missed this one because they have it labeled weird and have bad pictures of it (lol). Order some “Helanthium Vesuvius“. It’s a sword that grows beautiful and has very “aquatic looking” spiral leaves.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> I just checked their website. Get a “Marble Queen“ sword. Variegated aquatic plants are rare and that one is beautiful. There’s also Crypt “Tropica“.


Lol all three of those are all plants that were on my list to consider on my first order but were nixed to cut down on order cost lol.
Ill toss those on the cart and hopefully some of the others come back in stock.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I would do a 50% water change. Based on yellowish water color from tannins, looks like you have a rich soil doing plentiful decomposition. 
Freshly submerged soils tend to flood tank with tannins and nutrients the first few weeks. You can back off later when soil settles down.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Day 6*








Finally got the water change done. I wanted to do it 2 days ago but everything was conspiring against me. 
So by today the water was.... dark so even though this pic looks to be about the same color water as my day two post it about 40% lighter then what it was before the change. I will do another water change Wednesday.
Light are on three off three on four currently. 
All the plants seem to be holding there own. The only ones making me nervous are (surprisingly) the rotala colorara, the tiger lotus, and of course the pink flamingo cyrpt. It looks like some leaves have melted but that it still has growth, thinking of moving it to my betta tank so it get more established in a stable tank.

Finally managed to get another piece of driftwood. I think it helps balance everything. 
Going to test the water in the morning, including nitrites which i am sure are in the works by now.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

You need to have a longer photo period for good plant growth. Lights on should be a total of 10-14 hours with a siesta somewhere between.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

maico996 said:


> You need to have a longer photo period for good plant growth. Lights on should be a total of 10-14 hours with a siesta somewhere between.


This is why i shouldnt post updates while in bed late at night without rereading what i posted lol.
Lights are actually on 4.5 off 3 on 4.5. I thought i remembered someone saying you had start off at less light then work your way to the longer light periods. I will bump it up to the full 10 maybe 12.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Day 8*
So this might be a bit too early to have a minor panic over this tank but i am anyway, especially when to my recollection the betta tank seemed to take off immediately. 
Just did another 40% water change and the water is a clearer now. Which it really doesn't appear to be in the pic.








I am worried that my initial screw up with the light duration might have put me off to a less then desirable start along with allowing the tannins to build up so heavy in the tank thus blocking the light further.
Now I know the first 2-3 weeks are the most critical and the most unstable.
The micro sword has done nothing actually none of the fast growing plants have shown new growth (swords vals). Now the reason this concerns me even though this tank is only a week old is that almost every crypt is starting to grow new leaves along with both hygro species, the alternate rencikii, the knot weed and the mystery stem in the back. One of vals got loose and the roots on that look healthy.








One of hygros accidently got sucked up during the water change. When i replanted it a decent sized bubble escaped. This caused a minor freak out on my end and obsessive poking of the rest of the soil. Lots of real tiny bubbles some small ones. I know this part of the process as the soil looses its oxygen access.

Now that my light are straightened out and the water is slightly clearer hopefully this critical second week will show better results. I will probably do another water change on friday.








Center








Left side








Right side
I have a algae of some sort on the driftwood. Hopefully its visible enough its like a slimy white fuzz.

















My 20% off coupon ends tomorrow at Buce so i am trying to figure our what to add. I am now unsure if i should get the marble queen or vesuvius swords based on how the currant ones are acting but you never know. I will get the tropica crypt and maybe 1 or 2 others. I was also thinking of getting the dwarf sag to add to micro sword. I am not a huge fan of its tendency towards leggyness but i am concerned about the micro sword and needs a fast grower in here.
Any other plant suggestions are welcome (trying to keep this order under 40 lol.)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I would be patient. Your tank looks _sort of_ different than it did 8 or 9 days ago. And roots don't lie. Those are healthy vals you've got. Also, you've made a decision to rely on bio-filtration to some extent, and I know this sounds like heresy, but I'm wondering whether the need for fast-growers really still exists? Your tank is going to look marvelous in a few weeks.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> *Day 8*
> So this might be a bit too early to have a minor panic over this tank but i am anyway, especially when to my recollection the betta tank seemed to take off immediately.
> Just did another 40% water change and the water is a clearer now. Which it really doesn't appear to be in the pic.
> View attachment 75715
> ...


Get them all you have a big tank. If crypts are growing for you great and the swords will catch up and do most of the work eventually.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Smelly bubbles in the substrate are an issue but non smelly bubbles are welcomed. Those are likely CO2.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

Also, that’s not algae on your driftwood. That’s a bacterial biofilm. That’s fine. You need some “clean up crew” creatures to help you out. You need to stabilize you water and treat for heavy metals if you want shrimp but you can get some snails in the meantime. I personally use bladder snails (I love them) and ostrocods to help clean up my tank. I’m getting cherry shrimp as soon as my local fish store gets their order in.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Smelly bubbles in the substrate are an issue but non smelly bubbles are welcomed. Those are likely CO2.


Thanks for the conformation. After reevaluating things this am I figured it was probably co2, but as usual I am working on my tanks late at night and by that time usually not dealing with a full deck lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Also, that’s not algae on your driftwood. That’s a bacterial biofilm. That’s fine. You need some “clean up crew” creatures to help you out. You need to stabilize you water and treat for heavy metals if you want shrimp but you can get some snails in the meantime. I personally use bladder snails (I love them) and ostrocods to help clean up my tank. I’m getting cherry shrimp as soon as my local fish store gets their order in.


Good to know i have never seen that before in my tanks. I didnt think it was algae but wasn't sure of what it was. I will add in some mystery and nerite snails they are what my LFS has along with rabbit, and a few others. Shrimp will be a no go unless i want to provide my Sunfish with a very expansive meal. I think i might try shrimp again in my betta tank maybe.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Good to know i have never seen that before in my tanks. I didnt think it was algae but wasn't sure of what it was. I will add in some mystery and nerite snails they are what my LFS has along with rabbit, and a few others. Shrimp will be a no go unless i want to provide my Sunfish with a very expansive meal. I think i might try shrimp again in my betta tank maybe.


Try a freshwater fiddler crab?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

PlentyCoup said:


> Good to know i have never seen that before in my tanks. I didnt think it was algae but wasn't sure of what it was. I will add in some mystery and nerite snails they are what my LFS has along with rabbit, and a few others. Shrimp will be a no go unless i want to provide my Sunfish with a very expansive meal. I think i might try shrimp again in my betta tank maybe.


Be careful with bigger snails, many will devour young leaves of plants, and/or start eating stems at substrate level. In my experience, nerite, bladder, ramshorn and malaysian trumpet snails are completely safe and will help with algae and biofilms. 

I had to get rid of "apple" snails and Brotia herculea. "Rabbit" snails are being said to behave very similarly. Also my livebearer fish kept attacking their tentacles, causing injuries and stressing them. Smaller snails have better chance to hide, survive and breed.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

mysiak said:


> Be careful with bigger snails, many will devour young leaves of plants, and/or start eating stems at substrate level. In my experience, nerite, bladder, ramshorn and malaysian trumpet snails are completely safe and will help with algae and biofilms.
> 
> I had to get rid of "apple" snails and Brotia herculea. "Rabbit" snails are being said to behave very similarly. Also my livebearer fish kept attacking their tentacles, causing injuries and stressing them. Smaller snails have better chance to hide, survive and breed.


I’m a fan of smaller bladder snails. Nerites are good too.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

FernKing said:


> Try a freshwater fiddler crab?


Better idea! Get “ghost shrimp”! Since you want to keep native fauna, ghost shrimp (Palaemonetes paludosus) are native to North America, are transparent so predators can’t see them and are super cheap! Many pet stores sell them as ”feeder shrimp”. Let your plants grow in so they have hiding spaces and they will breed, clean your tank and occasionally feed your fish.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

MTS are a good snail choice because they like to get down into the substrate which also helps oxygenate it. Their population will also grow quickly.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I tend to stay away from the ramshorn, bladder, MTS etc because of how quickly they they can reproduce which is not something I really want to mess with. The nerites have been great snails and the mysterys from my LFS are not the "true" applesnails, I have never had any issue with them eating plants like I know some of the above mentioned snails will. I will do some additional research I dont want any snails that reproduce assexually like the pond snails that keep cropping up on my betta tank. I will have to ask Brian if the Longear goes after snails as all.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Better idea! Get “ghost shrimp”! Since you want to keep native fauna, ghost shrimp (Palaemonetes paludosus) are native to North America, are transparent so predators can’t see them and are super cheap! Many pet stores sell them as ”feeder shrimp”. Let your plants grow in so they have hiding spaces and they will breed, clean your tank and occasionally feed your fish.


This is certainly something i will look into. Actually might even pick some up when i go to pick up the tank hood and the snails. Also i have no knowledge about crabs or if they will work with the longear.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> This is certainly something i will look into. Actually might even pick some up when i go to pick up the tank hood and the snails. Also i have no knowledge about crabs or if they will work with the longear.


Shrimp can be sensitive! I killed 10 ghost shrimp in 24 hours with hot soil and no water testing and being a noob. Get yourself a shrimp water conditioner. I use “shrimp prep” and it has served me well. You can add it to your tank and mix it in.








Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics ShrimpPrep - Remover Chlorine, Chloramines, Ammonia and detoxifies Heavy Metals for Freshwater Shrimp & Fish Aquarium, 250 ml : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics ShrimpPrep - Remover Chlorine, Chloramines, Ammonia and detoxifies Heavy Metals for Freshwater Shrimp & Fish Aquarium, 250 ml : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com




It removes heavy metals and other shrimp toxins. My ghost shrimp and ostrocods are happy and healthy because if this. I use it with EVERY water change.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I tend to stay away from the ramshorn, bladder, MTS etc because of how quickly they they can reproduce which is not something I really want to mess with. The nerites have been great snails and the mysterys from my LFS are not the "true" applesnails, I have never had any issue with them eating plants like I know some of the above mentioned snails will. I will do some additional research I dont want any snails that reproduce assexually like the pond snails that keep cropping up on my betta tank. I will have to ask Brian if the Longear goes after snails as all.


In my experience mystery snails are a waste of money unless you just like having an extra mollusk or two in your collection. They're very poor housekeepers and have a disturbing tendency to "play dead" when they really aren't and consequently make removal a little late when they are (maybe that's where the name comes from?)


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah, you should have a mature tank when adding shrimps. I always use snails to speed up the process and they are good & cheap canaries.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Yeah, you should have a mature tank when adding shrimps. I always use snails to speed up the process and they are good & cheap canaries.


I agree about the shrimp. Water and soil needs to settle and he needs more plant growth for them to flourish too. They need places to hide and things to eat!
I love snails. They really bother some people but there’s ways to keep them under control. I have a feeling that native North American fish would love to eat small snails like bladder snails. Some people add assassin snails to keep populations in check. There’s always a natural solution to a natural problem!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Yeah, you should have a mature tank when adding shrimps. I always use snails to speed up the process and they are good & cheap canaries.


Yes lol of course. I know that but end up responding before i fully process what that entails. I will probably just stick with 2 or 3 nerites for now, until i have researched anything else. I hope my LFS has ghost shrimp but they tend towards the fancy shrimp i dont know if i even remember seeing them there before. My ammonia is at about .25ppm have not checked any other parameters yet.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> In my experience mystery snails are a waste of money unless you just like having an extra mollusk or two in your collection. They're very poor housekeepers and have a disturbing tendency to "play dead" when they really aren't and consequently make removal a little late when they are (maybe that's where the name comes from?)


Lol yes they really do have a tendency to do that. I usually keep one just because of how they look. The real house keepers are my nerites. My LFS regularly gets the "Tiger" or as they call them Red Onion nerite.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So this is my kind of luck. Placed my order at buce
Echinodorus Marble Queen and Vesuvius
Crypt Tropica and Usteriana (Retrospiralis is still out of stock)
Rotala H'Ra
2 Hours after placing my order i get a back in stock notification for Buce Belindea. 😂😂
So i contacted Buce and hopefully they can send me a invoice for just the plant and then add it to my order with the discount code so that i dont have to pay for shipping for a single plant.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> So this is my kind of luck. Placed my order at buce
> Echinodorus Marble Queen and Vesuvius
> Crypt Tropica and Usteriana (Retrospiralis is still out of stock)
> Rotala H'Ra
> ...


Just so you know, “out of stock” in plant nursery speak can mean months to a year. Companies can grow a “crop” and sell it off and the next generation may take until next year to mature. Some plants take a long time to grow to a “mature“ size. Your average supermarket phalaenopsis orchid, for example, can be 6 to 10 years old! When a plant company says something’s “out of stock” I don’t hold my breath and I usually start to look elsewhere.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

FernKing said:


> I agree about the shrimp. Water and soil needs to settle and he needs more plant growth for them to flourish too. They need places to hide and things to eat!
> I love snails. They really bother some people but there’s ways to keep them under control. I have a feeling that native North American fish would love to eat small snails like bladder snails. Some people add assassin snails to keep populations in check. There’s always a natural solution to a natural problem!


They're pretty easy to control. Feeding less usually does the trick. It looks like the blue-spotted sunfish do eat snails. Have you seen the pygmy sunfish, or okefenoke sunfish? Quite a brilliant blue.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> They're pretty easy to control. Feeding less usually does the trick. It looks like the blue-spotted sunfish do eat snails. Have you seen the pygmy sunfish, or okefenoke sunfish? Quite a brilliant blue.


Well if the small bluespots eat snails then i am sure the larger longear does as well. If it can fit in there mouths a sunfish will try to eat it.
Yes the pygmy males are stunning but have several drawbacks. A short lifespan you could almost consider them annual fish. Only one dominate male "colors up" and the females are much smaller and extremely drab in color. They are also very, very, shy. Any fish bigger then 1in will scare them into hiding. I would actually think it would be intreasting to try them in a 10 gal but i would put them in to same bracket as anunal killies. The dominate males claim a small section of the tank and then "dance" to attract a female.
Herea some photos
















All my info comes from the NAFA forum and Brian Zimmerman lol.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Oh, I didn’t know their lifespans were so short. Another attractive native is the wild sailfin molly. I’m not a fan of the aquarium hobby strains.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Oh, I didn’t know their lifespans were so short. Another attractive native is the wild sailfin molly. I’m not a fan of the aquarium hobby strains.


Yes the wild sailfin molly is very attractive. I think Brian has those he also has Spiketail Platys if you are familiar with those.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Have to do a water change tonight but before that...
🎃🎃*HAPPY HALLLOWEEN🎃🎃 ALL HALLOWS EVE*
Pumpkins!!!
























Didn't turn out as good ad last years but i was on a time crunch this year.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Impressive carving skills.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Impressive carving skills.


Thank you Halloween and Pumpkin carving are a bit of a obsession for me (its also part of the reason ive not been keeping up with water changes lol)


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So my fave holiday is over but guess who will be putting pumpkins out tomorrow night..... me lol
Anyway got the water change done probably only 30% change this time. 








My ammonia is at basically 0ppm... i am an awful lazy person who did not check nitrites or nitrates or anything else............ i have no excuses besides that i am tired 😴








I am seeing new growth ob the vals, major sword, all crypts and hygos, knot weed and mystery plant i now got identified but cant remember......
The micro sword is doing diddly squat nothing.
I feel as though things are slower then my betta tank but i am once again a lazy person who has not taken the time to reread all my ramblings in that journal. I am thinking temperature is probably playing a role heated vs unheated. 








I am torally amazed by the reneckii variegated. I thought this would melt away into nothing but it is still looking great and putting our new leaves that almost the same red variegated color.








The knot weed with the long name i refuse to type is also doing really well. Only a few melted leaves and the new leaves are taking on a nice orangish cast. It hiding behind my leggy green gecko crypt and next to the truly awful looking rotala colorata. 








The hygo penn.and coryambosa are both wonderful.... most hygros and pretty reliable but i really like these two. 
My Buce order arrives tomorrow. 
I am also about ready to put my fish choice to a vote because i am going in circles like a five year old in a toy store. 
I made the mistake od telling Brian I had a 20gal tall, that i want to get running but dont know when that will happen or where i will put it. 
He responded that the Longear would work well in the 20 tall as my Wet Pet obession and then have the 36 as the big community tank..... OR i could reverse them and have the Longear in the 36 with the darters and and shiners and have the 20 tall as a smaller community tank...............totally did not help me make up my mind all. AT. ALL.
And once again im posting a update at midnight..


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

So, basically you are at Week 2 and 99% of your purchases are still alive. That's not bad at all. You have a lot of choices including doubling down on what you already have.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Micro swords will do Nothing for a month or so then it’ll start to spread, maybe. It’ll need strong light and co2 sometime.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Day 15*
So the 2nd buce order arrived yesterday. Everything looked pretty good expect the Vesuvius sword it had yellowed pretty badly and several leaves were brown. 
















Everything else was really great. Especially the buce belindea really large portion.








The Tropica was small but looked good split it between this thank and the betta tank. 








The marble queen and other crypt were a great size.








I really like the hammered looking leaves on the crypt.
Also I officially think this tank is at plant capacity. 








I could probabaly always fit more crypts up in the very front if the micro sword fails to take off along with the hygro compacta.
I also have 2 netites now. One is obsessed with cleaning the leaves on the reneckii and the other like to clean the rocks... neither had touched the driftwood yet lol.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> *Day 15*
> So the 2nd buce order arrived yesterday. Everything looked pretty good expect the Vesuvius sword it had yellowed pretty badly and several leaves were brown.
> View attachment 75747
> 
> ...


Call them about the Vesuvius sword, I would ask for a replacement. Maybe it’ll bounce back but it looks pretty bad.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

FernKing said:


> Call them about the Vesuvius sword, I would ask for a replacement. Maybe it’ll bounce back but it looks pretty bad.


They're usually really good about sending replacements for plants that are DOA. They'll probably want to see photos of the plant and respond very quickly.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

maico996 said:


> They're usually really good about sending replacements for plants that are DOA. They'll probably want to see photos of the plant and respond very quickly.


Yes i messaged them this am and sent photos. I had messaged them about the melt on the tiger lotus and they gave me a 2 week extension on the DOA. They also gave me store credit for the Pink Flamingo. 
So yes they are very good about DOAs and responses. 
I was thinking about ordering the orange shrimp from them. There price is cheaper them my LFS....... until i factored in their $50 shipping cost lmao no way 
Shipping for my Native fish from Ohio is $20 
So i will save that store credit and my built up buce points for another plant order.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes i messaged them this am and sent photos. I had messaged them about the melt on the tiger lotus and they gave me a 2 week extension on the DOA. They also gave me store credit for the Pink Flamingo.
> So yes they are very good about DOAs and responses.
> I was thinking about ordering the orange shrimp from them. There price is cheaper them my LFS....... until i factored in their $50 shipping cost lmao no way
> Shipping for my Native fish from Ohio is $20
> So i will save that store credit and my built up buce points for another plant order.


can you post a progress of the pink flamingo crypt? How is it doing? I’m pretty sure mine are dead 😭


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

😭 I am pretty sure mine is as well. I had to dig in the substrate to find to send pics to buce.
















So......... i am stubborn enough that i think i might try again. But i am pretty sure this plant is not viable.
I have that refund from buce so I might try it again OR put it towards the $27 plant pot as opposed to the tissue culture.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> 😭 I am pretty sure mine is as well. I had to dig in the substrate to find to send pics to buce.
> View attachment 75753
> 
> View attachment 75752
> ...


That’s rough 🫠. True “crypt Tropica” has multicolored leaves and some are pink like the pink flamingo crypts. I hope it works out.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

The thing I've found with tissue cultures is that there's no real advantage to buying them unless the "normal" version of the plant is not available. They don't seem to be any healthier or better, but if you're trying to eliminate any possibility of hitchhikers, tissue culture is the only way to go. With a Walstad tank we all seem to welcome hitchhikers! 😂


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

maico996 said:


> The thing I've found with tissue cultures is that there's no real advantage to buying them unless the "normal" version of the plant is not available. They don't seem to be any healthier or better, but if you're trying to eliminate any possibility of hitchhikers, tissue culture is the only way to go. With a Walstad tank we all seem to welcome hitchhikers! 😂


My tanks are algae free _because_ of hitchhikers!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I didn't have any luck with Buce. IMHO, it's for aquascapers and collectors of esoteric plants.
I don't see any tried and true good growers--Val, hornwort, Bacopa, Sag, C. wendtii, Rotala rotundifolia, Java fern?
Hopefully your plant assortment will work, but the species seem designed for high-tech/aquascaping tanks.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> I didn't have any luck with Buce. IMHO, it's for aquascapers and collectors of esoteric plants.
> I don't see any tried and true good growers--Val, hornwort, Bacopa, Sag, C. wendtii, Rotala rotundifolia, Java fern?
> Hopefully your plant assortment will work, but the species seem designed for high-tech/aquascaping tanks.


I hope that the plants work as well i know the buce are more of a collectors plant but they are something i have wanted to try. Are you referring to my entire plant selection list or just this most recent add on purchase? Do you also consider all but the most common versions/variants of plants high-tech?

I have just about all the plants you listed just not in those exact basic forms. Also this is just a add on order on top of my inital plant order.
I do not have the basic c.wendtii but i have houdori, costata, tropica and usteriana which are all easy to grow crypts some if them are even variants of wendtii.
I dont have the regular vals i have the variegated form. I have 4 different sword plants major (the most tried and true sword out there), rose, marble queen. I dont have rotala rotundifolia but the only difference between it colorata and h'ra (h'ra is a rotundifolia variant not sure about colorata) is their branching habit. I should have picked dwarf sag over the micro sword but i have never been a fan of its tendency towards leggyness. My LFS store has it so i could pick up a pot of it.

I have never in my life been able to get java fern to grow and i did not have success with bacopa in my betta tank so i skipped it and i did not give any thought to hornwort i could add some of that in.
The Persicaria sp Kawagoeanum which is a fast growing asian knot weed seems to be doing really well as do both the hygros. The mystery plant i received is Lindernia sp india and it seems to be doing really well.

Things do seem to be a bit slow bit it is also hard to gauge exactly where plant growth should be at this point. The first month is considered the most critical in your book (first two weeks in particular) I have been rereading your chapter on anaerobic soil but i cant seem to figure out what sort of time frame i have before that happens.

Do you think this tank is not where it should be at a 2 week mark and is on a path towards failure? Should i pull the micro sword and swap in d. sag add in hornwort or some guppy weed? I have a biofilm on the drift wood and a bit on the glass but so far no algae the frogbit is also multiplying like crazy.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sorry for throwing a wrench into your thinking. It sounds like you have more experience with plants than I thought. 
I don't have enough experience or time to parse differences in 100s of new species and different varieties as you are doing (e.g., "....C. houdori, costata, tropica and usteriana which are all easy to grow crypts some if them are even variants of wendtii"). We have to trust plant sellers to offer some good growers AND identify which of their varieties, species etc that grow well. (After all, it is in their best interests.) Then just buy a lot of different plants and see which ones do well--which is what you are doing. Very good!
You are gaining valuable experience as to what will grow in your particular setup. It is wonderful that you are sharing your experience here. Hey, I may learn something new! 
I would just keep doing what you are doing and continue to use my book as a general guide. 
There are no hard and fast rules for ecosystems.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Sorry for throwing a wrench into your thinking. It sounds like you have more experience with plants than I thought.
> I don't have enough experience or time to parse differences in 100s of new species and different varieties as you are doing (e.g., "....C. houdori, costata, tropica and usteriana which are all easy to grow crypts some if them are even variants of wendtii"). We have to trust plant sellers to offer some good growers AND identify which of their varieties, species etc that grow well. (After all, it is in their best interests.) Then just buy a lot of different plants and see which ones do well--which is what you are doing. Very good!
> You are gaining valuable experience as to what will grow in your particular setup. It is wonderful that you are sharing your experience here. Hey, I may learn something new!
> I would just keep doing what you are doing and continue to use my book as a general guide.
> There are no hard and fast rules for ecosystems.


Didnt mean to dump all that at you but when the Guru comments on your plant selection panic ensures lol.

Yes it was a lot of research and a almost unfathomable number of choices. It is overwhelming and several times i almost said screw it and picked basic plants.

Do you honestly think this tank is behind since this coming tuesday will be my 3 week mark?
My tiger lotus from buce is trying to come back but i think its way to small to make any sort of impact on my tank. My LFS usually has them that i could pick up and add in a new larger plant. 








Same with the d.sag i can get a pot from my LFS. I am really having my doubts about the micro sword.
Unfortunately both rotalas came to me in their emersed forms so as of right now neither of them are assisting my tank a while lot. 
The asian knot weed is really seeming to hold its own and so far i am thrilled with it so at this point would 100% recommend this plant. 
Despite how well my bonus plant is looking the indica i have my doubts with it. From my research it prefers soft water and high tech set ups.... at least it was free lol. 

My lighting schedule was off the first week and i dont know if that played a role. I am sure it would be advisable to a in d.sag, a new larger lotus and possibly the hornwort (if i can find it)? I have been periodically poking the soil as well especially around the microsword. 
Is there anything you seriously think is going wrong at this point, should add in or change?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

TBH, I never thought plant selection was going to be your biggest problem. You seem to be having enormous luck with big plants that generally take up a lot of space in the water column. I think this goes along with your plan to have a variety of big, native fishes. My biggest fear would be bio-load. But, you have a backup filter system, so even that concern might be misplaced. I agree with @dwalstad. Continue doing what you're doing. Keep us apprised of your water parameters and whether you're happy with the tannic coloring that seems to be a matter of aesthetics. The latter is probably not harmful to the fish you have chosen but it sounds as though it's the only thing that's requiring water changes at this point.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> TBH, I never thought plant selection was going to be your biggest problem. You seem to be having enormous luck with big plants that generally take up a lot of space in the water column. I think this goes along with your plan to have a variety of big, native fishes. My biggest fear would be bio-load. But, you have a backup filter system, so even that concern might be misplaced. I agree with @dwalstad. Continue doing what you're doing. Keep us apprised of your water parameters and whether you're happy with the tannic coloring that seems to be a matter of aesthetics. The latter is probably not harmful to the fish you have chosen but it sounds as though it's the only thing that's requiring water changes at this point.


Patience will be key here. The plants need a head start to getting established then the fish can follow.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Let the plants make your decisions here. Whatever species grows, work with it. You've got enough plants. Healthy plants even if you receive them emersed should convert. Some stem plants adjust very easily. After submergence, they just put out submerged leaves on an emergent stem. I'm thinking of your Rotala. Forget what people say about indica. It's your experience that counts.
Don't prune. Make sure you've got decent lighting and a 12 hour plus photoperiod and enough water hardness.
Change water and poke soil if you feel the need to--cloudy water, planaria all over, scum on surface. 
Just because you planted a few weeks later and had a minor set-back doesn't mean failure. Think of it as a learning experience.
Tank setup is tricky and accidents always happen. You sound like you are doing a good job.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Let the plants make your decisions here. Whatever species grows, work with it. You've got enough plants. Healthy plants even if you receive them emersed should convert. Some stem plants adjust very easily. After submergence, they just put out submerged leaves on an emergent stem. I'm thinking of your Rotala. Forget what people say about indica. It's your experience that counts.
> Don't prune. Make sure you've got decent lighting and a 12 hour plus photoperiod and enough water hardness.
> Change water and poke soil if you feel the need to--cloudy water, planaria all over, scum on surface.
> Just because you planted a few weeks later and had a minor set-back doesn't mean failure. Think of it as a learning experience.
> Tank setup is tricky and accidents always happen. You sound like you are doing a good job.


I have my fingers crossed. I am very interested to see how it plays out between the swords and vals. In your allelopathy chapter you had talked about almost never being able to get swords and vals to grow in the same tank. I have the leopard vals (i calling them tiger the crazy things are striped not spotted) which are just varigated spiralis vals and echinodorus major, rose, and marble queen (pretty sure the Vesuvius is DOA). Right now my money is on the vals. Just noticed today but each val has put out at least 3 new leaves. The rose sword doesnt seem to be doing so hot, lots of brown spots on the leaves no new growth. The other 2 seem to be slow but ok.








Awful picture.
Did a small water change manly to clear up plant debris and soil sitting on the substrate cap.
I think/hope everythings ok. I am planning on getting some d.sag and maybe a bigger tiger lotus. I also think my fish order is going to be on 5th week? Not sure if everything will be growing enough by tbe 4th. Ammonia is at 0ppm mow just have to check the rest.
Need to stop comparing this to the betta tank as well. Its going to take plants longer to tackle a 36gal then it did for them to tackle a 3gal.
I am hoping i can add some ghost shrimp soon so they can get established before before i add in fish.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Just for funsies I went back to the first page of this journal. I don't know where you get your patience!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Just for funsies I went back to the first page of this journal. I don't know where you get your patience!


Well i have been wanting to plant this tank properly since 2017 so now that I finally have the chance to do it after waiting 5 years i am going to everything possible to make sure it turns out.
I unfortuneinatly dont have the ability to start new tanks or change out tanks as easily as some in the hobby are able to. Its part of the reason im so torn about the community tank w/ b.spots or the longear. Sure in theory its a easy decision community tank in the 36 and longear in the 20. But with how my life usually plays out i dont know when or even if i will ever get the 20 up and running again. So i always have to go into everything i do under the assumption that this is my one and only shot at getting the tank of my dreams so i better choose wisely.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Week 3*
So.....not much to report lol.
Finally remembered to take a pic of the water test results.








And looks like we are 0ppm across the board.
















Went through the tank tonight and just tried to clean things up again, leaf debris, and what ever this stuff is on tge leaves and rocks. It rubs off pretty easy so i cant really tell of it a algae or just dirt material that has settled on the leaves and could possibly be promoting algae.
Also the Vesuvius sword has bit the dust.








Will be sending buce updates photos.
So heres some pics post clean up.








Plants doing really well








Persicaria sp Kawagoeanum (Asian Knot Weed because i refuse to try to type that) the long narrow leaves with the orange cast. Absoutly love this plant so far, almost no melt and seems to be taking off well.... like a weed 😅

Also doing really well and just blowing my mind is the Alternanthera Reineckii Variegated








I would have considered this plant a no show preformer for our "low tech" tanks but it too had suffered almost no melt, new leaves are the same bright splash of color and new growth is also trying to take off.
All the crypts are doing well costata and houdori are sensing up new leaves but seem to have a slower growth rate. Usteriana green has been in the tank for what...... a week maybe and its already showing 2 new leaves. I think this will be a favorite i love the hammered leaves.








Another great trooper is hygo coryambosa compacta. Love this plant, new growth, great color no melt.
Sword major seems to be chugging along. I pulled up one by accident and it had a lot of new healthy roots. The rose sword which is looking... not the best also had healthy root growth when one got pulled up. Marble queen also seems to be doing well.
Vals are moving along. I couldnt get a pic of it but it looks like i might already have a baby val from a runner.

Plants not doing so well the micro sword. A couple pieces got pulled up and there was almost no new root growth. So i need to get some d.sag going asap. My LFS is out of d.sag and are not sure if they will get any in this friday or if it will be next friday.
I have the 14.99 refund at buce plus what ever i get back for the Vesuvius. So was thinking of getting a d.sag pot from them and maybe seeing if they sell like a mother plant or larger bulb of tiger lotus.
The rotala colorata is doing horribly. Even going from emersed to submersed it melting all over the place and so far no replacement emersed growth or root growth.

Might be missing a few ill go back over my list hard trying to remember them all lol.

So now i really need to finalize my fish decision.
Think its safe for me to add in some ghost shrimp now if i get the shrimp stuff @FernKing talked about (that ive alreadyforgotten the name of😑)
Should i place the fish order on the 4th week or the 5th week?
My main concern is weather. Thankfully the fish are just next door in Ohio but we are scheduled to have a major flip in weather around Michigan towards the cold and unpleasant. Temps are scheduled to start falling into the low 30s and even into the 20s at night.

I think i should have thrown the mechanical media into the filter just so it could catch all the plant matter that keeps coming in through the filter. I might add it in even now.
Either way things seem to be ok.... i think.... I can see some algae trying to take hold but i dont think its a major concern yet... Ied like to get maybe 2 more nerite snails and i have a whole horde of some sort of pond snail that hitch hicked from a water lettice in my pond to my betta tank and from my betta tank to this tank via my floaters.

Not much to report.... after i write half a novel lol


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

It’s called “Shrimp Prep”! I buy the small bottle. 👍








Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics ShrimpPrep - Remover Chlorine, Chloramines, Ammonia and detoxifies Heavy Metals for Freshwater Shrimp & Fish Aquarium, 250 ml : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics ShrimpPrep - Remover Chlorine, Chloramines, Ammonia and detoxifies Heavy Metals for Freshwater Shrimp & Fish Aquarium, 250 ml : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> It’s called “Shrimp Prep”! I buy the small bottle. 👍
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looked it up on amazon and thought huh that sounds familiar.....








It doesnt say for shrimp but i have used this whenever i do water changes and i think it reads out as basically doing the same thing as the Shrimp Prep?


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Looked it up on amazon and thought huh that sounds familiar.....
> View attachment 75803
> 
> It doesnt say for shrimp but i have used this whenever i do water changes and i think it reads out as basically doing the same thing as the Shrimp Prep?


I’m not qualified to give an opinion, I’m sorry 😭


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So would anyone believe that so far none of my LFS have ghost shrimp. I have one LFS left to check but so far im striking out. All of the 3 i have checked so far had amano shrimp and of course cherry but no ghost.

I would like to get some shrimp established in this tank. Everything has tested out fine just have see were ph and gh are. But i am not sure if the tank is established enough plant wise for them hiding spots etc.
Maybe adding them in a week before the fish is just moot point its not enough time to allow them to establish then selves. So i might be better off waiting until the plants are established and hiding spots are abundant.
Either way my fish order needs to get placed end of next week i think. The weather is not projected to rise above the mid 40s for the foreseeable future.
I am leaning towards the community option..... b.spot rainbow shiners, redbelly dace and then trying like hell to get my 20tall set up for a single longear.
Also i ordered some d.sag and a new larger lotus from a etsy seller because those another thing my LFS store is out of and doesnt know when they will get in.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> So would anyone believe that so far none of my LFS have ghost shrimp. I have one LFS left to check but so far im striking out. All of the 3 i have checked so far had amano shrimp and of course cherry but no ghost.
> 
> I would like to get some shrimp established in this tank. Everything has tested out fine just have see were ph and gh are. But i am not sure if the tank is established enough plant wise for them hiding spots etc.
> Maybe adding them in a week before the fish is just moot point its not enough time to allow them to establish then selves. So i might be better off waiting until the plants are established and hiding spots are abundant.
> ...


Be patIent. They are very common but fish stores tend to sell them off or kill them off. They will come back in stock as they are popular “feeder shrimp”. I had a moment where every fish store was out and the next month they all had ghost shrimp. Hilariously I can’t find any cherry shrimp for the past several months but I have ghost shrimp here in abundance 😭


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Be patIent. They are very common but fish stores tend to sell them off or kill them off. They will come back in stock as they are popular “feeder shrimp”. I had a moment where every fish store was out and the next month they all had ghost shrimp. Hilariously I can’t find any cherry shrimp for the past several months but I have ghost shrimp here in abundance 😭


OMG i wish we could swap lol. Every single LFS here is overrun with cherry shrimp and they all look at me funny when i say i want ghost shrimp.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> OMG i wish we could swap lol. Every single LFS here is overrun with cherry shrimp and they all look at me funny when i say i want ghost shrimp.


Here’s an idea. Try calling a few “live bait” shops. My brothers used to use ghost shrimp as fishing bait.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So today low and behold i noticed the beginnings of iron deficiency in my floating tiger frogbit.
This coming tuesday will make this tank 4 weeks old and I guess I cant say i surprised but i am peeved its appearing this early, especially since i have not decided on my particular treatment for it.

I am checking my gh tomorrow and then depending on that result adding a pinch of the CSM+B I already have on hand and then going over to my local asian market and seeing if they have plain dried seaweed. 
I was also thinking of just skipping the micros i have and going straight to the seaweed. This would probably be a excellent test on wether or the seaweed can take the place of dry iron. 
Also a good thing to for anyone else planning to use compost. I think in the long run compost will be a richer, possibly longer lasting, substrate then commercial potting soil since its pure organic matter. On the other hand its lacking in some minerals that are added to potting soil. 
Now this has me wondering how compost in different regions differs, or even with in regions of my own state. I can solidly say compost, and technically the very soil in my back yard is lacking in iron. I have to treat several of my plants, hydrangeas in particular, for iron deficiency. But i would assume that this is not the case across the board. 
My compost is iron defficient but will someone using compost in texas, or flordia, or kentucky or maine have this issue to the same degree i do?
I use compost all the time a 50/50 mix of compost and shredded pine bark makes the best potting soil for perennials but o have never really given any thought to the technicalities or make up of it. 
Also i have around 7 baby val plants that i can see emerging next to the original vals i planted so thats wonderful. 
Gave a call to one of the bait shops here and got laughed at when i asked for ghost shrimp. Walleye and larger game fish are huge in this area and if the bait cant catch those then they dont stock it.......
I have a few more i can call and one more LFS to check before i start looking online..... which i dont want to do.... at all. 
I should rename both my journals "Iron Deficiency Crash Course" lol


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> So today low and behold i noticed the beginnings of iron deficiency in my floating tiger frogbit.
> This coming tuesday will make this tank 4 weeks old and I guess I cant say i surprised but i am peeved its appearing this early, especially since i have not decided on my particular treatment for it.
> 
> I am checking my gh tomorrow and then depending on that result adding a pinch of the CSM+B I already have on hand and then going over to my local asian market and seeing if they have plain dried seaweed.
> ...


Florida generally doesn’t have iron. I lived in Georgia for a while and the soil was red and sticky with clay. In Florida, the soil composition is mucky black topsoil with pure inert sand underneath that sits on top of solid white limestone. Florida is a geologically ”recent” dry coral reef bed. We have no clay and no iron.
My brothers used to catch ghost shrimp by running a small hand net in aquatic grasses by the banks of ponds and lakes. They would put the shrimp on hooks to bait smaller bait fish then use the bait fish to catch larger fish like bass. It was a poor-man’s version of fishing by creating something from nothing. I do remember local bait stores here in FL with buckets full of ghost shrimp and an aerator. I guess Michigan is just different.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Florida generally doesn’t have iron. I lived in Georgia for a while and the soil was red and sticky with clay. In Florida, the soil composition is mucky black topsoil with pure inert sand underneath that sits on top of solid white limestone. Florida is a geologically ”recent” dry coral reef bed. We have no clay and no iron.
> My brothers used to catch ghost shrimp by running a small hand net in aquatic grasses by the banks of ponds and lakes. They would put the shrimp on hooks to bait smaller bait fish then use the bait fish to catch larger fish like bass. It was a poor-man’s version of fishing by creating something from nothing. I do remember local bait stores here in FL with buckets full of ghost shrimp and an aerator. I guess Michigan is just different.


S
*SUCCESS GHOST SHRIMP FOUND 😂😂*
omg called my main pet store that i go to again and they have ghost shrimp. I called them on a whim i had already checked with them but had asked a newbie employee who clearly didnt know what they were talking about. So called this am one of the managers answered and said they had 10 or ghost shrimp for 49 cents each. 
I have not checked hardness or ph and will look online to see if my water conditioner works the same as shrimp prep. 
So i will get 10+ shrimp hopefully a good mix of males and females and plan on fish order......... beginning of 5th week i think?


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> S
> *SUCCESS GHOST SHRIMP FOUND 😂😂*
> omg called my main pet store that i go to again and they have ghost shrimp. I called them on a whim i had already checked with them but had asked a newbie employee who clearly didnt know what they were talking about. So called this am one of the managers answered and said they had 10 or ghost shrimp for 49 cents each.
> I have not checked hardness or ph and will look online to see if my water conditioner works the same as shrimp prep.
> So i will get 10+ shrimp hopefully a good mix of males and females and plan on fish order......... beginning of 5th week i think?


Everything should be okay. Use your water conditioner. You’ll know if it doesn’t work if everything is dead tomorrow (😭). I doubt it’ll be a problem. If you want a quick place for your shrimp to hide, people make “shrimp caves” out of tiny pots or you can get some floating hornwort. They just need a place to go and hide from fish.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Everything should be okay. Use your water conditioner. You’ll know if it doesn’t work if everything is dead tomorrow (😭). I doubt it’ll be a problem. If you want a quick place for your shrimp to hide, people make “shrimp caves” out of tiny pots or you can get some floating hornwort. They just need a place to go and hide from fish.


Well fingers crossed. I am adding the water conditioner as a precaution. 
Went to my LFS and picked up what they had left which was six shrimp. Looks like i might have 3 males 3 females but its hard to tell. I know at least 2 are females for sure. 
They are much larger then what i expected. 
Hopefully my d.sag gets here so i can get that added in and rig up some other hiding spts for them.
Its going to be a complete nightmare trying to locate them in the tank let alone keep track of their numbers. They really are"ghosts"


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*Week 4*








So have 1 confirmed shrimp death since adding them. Happened this am i believe. Yesterday afternoon i managed to see five shrimp all at once and this evening was able to find three. Looks like i have at least 2 males and 3 females. I would like to add in a few more. 
Have 3 nerite snails and a whole horde of pond snails. 

Picked up a mess of guppy weed and threw that in the tank havent bothered sticking it in the substrate. 
I am having a bit of BGA show up mainly on driftwood and on the gravel cap where the micro sword is failing to do anything. Cant say im too surprised with the BGA (its not even a algae lol) showing up especially in the locations its appearing in.
Did a small water change mainly to clean up the BGA, and plant matter. The tiny nano siphon is a life savior. The suction is just strong enough to pull BGA and small fuzz algae off leaves with out uprooting anything. 

My d.sag and new tiger lotus shipped out yesterday and are not expected to arrive till monday. Hopefully that delivery day gets moved up, i dont feel it should take that long. I think ill be pulling out the micro sword once the d.sag arrives.
I have baby tiger val plants... at least 12-15 they are all of a sudden showing up in droves. The crypts are really taking off houdori is turning up some stunning almost black colored leaves. Usteriana is a great looking crypt and a surprising fast grower. 
The asian knot weed is just about my fave plant right now. Seriously try this plant if you can find it.

Got some dried seaweed from my LFS. Went to a few of my local asian markets and they were either out of or didnt carry just PLAIN dried seaweed. So my LFS had Omega One seaweed red, brown or green. Picked up the red because it had the highest amount of iron 1014mg/kg which was double the green or brown. Now i just have to figure out how much to add. 

Going to bite the bullet next week and order the fish...... or wait until after the holiday? 
I think im going to go with the b spots, rainbows and redbellies................
I feel like my tank is going very very slow. But the im also looking at it everyday and havent gone back in this journal to see how it looked newly planted.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Water is cloudy and needs changing. I would reduce the water level so that plants get more light. Light doesn't travel well through cloudy water--as opposed to air. (Water changes will be easier.)


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Water is cloudy and needs changing. I would reduce the water level so that plants get more light. Light doesn't travel well through cloudy water--as opposed to air. (Water changes will be easier.)


Would you say the water level should be permanently lower or just until i get the tannis gone and the water clear and improved plant growth?
I have been having a hell of a time getting the tannis to clear up and the water to clear. 
I would assume i should give it another week or two before ordering the natives? Unless of course im coming onto his last shipment time.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Got the d.sag and RTL today. Packaging was great vote to Marcusfishtanks on etsy. The packaging when i added the heat pack to the order was great. I will post pics later. I have not added them yet but plan to this evening along with a water change and lowering water level.

Any way i keep swinging between being concerned that i am going to have to pull it apart and start over or thinking everything will work out. 
The growth is clearly slow, algae is starting to try and get a foot hold. 

This tank is 18" deep to substrate should i permanently lower the water level to 15"?
I am also now worries that i should i have bought a stronger light (omg please no)
Thinking about sticking in a charcoal pad to try and help clear the water? Maybe the mechanical media to catch the plant matter that is still floating around.

This tuesday will be the start of week five and i believe this tank should be alot further ahead then it is.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Got the d.sag and RTL today. Packaging was great vote to Marcusfishtanks on etsy. The packaging when i added the heat pack to the order was great. I will post pics later. I have not added them yet but plan to this evening along with a water change and lowering water level.
> 
> Any way i keep swinging between being concerned that i am going to have to pull it apart and start over or thinking everything will work out.
> The growth is clearly slow, algae is starting to try and get a foot hold.
> ...


I think if you're getting algae, you don't have to worry about getting a stronger light. I've already dimmed my NicrewC10 to 50% in an effort to slow down the algae in my breeder tank and it's still plenty bright. Of course, my tank is only 15 inches from top to substrate. But I still think we tend to overcompensate how bright our lights need to be.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Charcoal (a.k.a. activated carbon) is good at removing tannin and other dissolved organic compounds (DOC) when it is fresh. There are other specially made resins for this.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I think if you're getting algae, you don't have to worry about getting a stronger light. I've already dimmed my NicrewC10 to 50% in an effort to slow down the algae in my breeder tank and it's still plenty bright. Of course, my tank is only 15 inches from top to substrate. But I still think we tend to overcompensate how bright our lights need to be.


That is completely correct lol...... shows how much thought i give things when i start panicking about.......everything.
I clearly have plenty of excess nutrients.... also i did not soak this batch of compost like i did for my betta tank so that might explain why the tannis are so much harder to get under control this time around. 
Hopefully tonight's water change will be an assist and help clear up the water a bit, i will see how it looks in the morning and see about dropping the water level. 
Hopefully the d.sag and lotus take off and assist with combating the algae.
The lotus did not melt at all in transport even in this major cold snap ill post pics of the packaging it was great lol.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> Got the d.sag and RTL today. Packaging was great vote to Marcusfishtanks on etsy. The packaging when i added the heat pack to the order was great. I will post pics later. I have not added them yet but plan to this evening along with a water change and lowering water level.
> 
> Any way i keep swinging between being concerned that i am going to have to pull it apart and start over or thinking everything will work out.
> The growth is clearly slow, algae is starting to try and get a foot hold.
> ...


Just lower the water level for a while as your plants fill in. You can add more water later. You’re doing fine. Diana said do some water changes. That’s it. Everything, including the tannins will go away. Your lights are probably fine. Do you have wonder shells? They really help clear my water.
Also get your fish later. Let your tank become a snail, shrimp and plant paradise first. The soil has plenty of nutrients until then.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Just lower the water level for a while as your plants fill in. You can add more water later. You’re doing fine. Diana said do some water changes. That’s it. Everything, including the tannins will go away. Your lights are probably fine. Do you have wonder shells? They really help clear my water.
> Also get your fish later. Let your tank become a snail, shrimp and plant paradise first. The soil has plenty of nutrients until then.


I dont have wonder shells. I had used them in the past but had some issues with them and know some friends in the hobby that have had issues as well.
I dropped the water level maybe 2". I have to cut a new piece of tubing to lower the sprayer bar and i was too tired to do that tonight.
I emailed Brian about when his last ship date is. I really dont think i want to wait till spring to order the fish.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> I dont have wonder shells. I had used them in the past but had some issues with them and know some friends in the hobby that have had issues as well.
> I really don't think I want to wait till spring to order the fish.


Can you tell us what the issues were with the Wonder Shells? I have been recommending them and some caveats about how to use them properly might help.
I would get your fish whenever it is convenient for you.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Can you tell us what the issues were with the Wonder Shells? I have been recommending them and some caveats about how to use them properly might help.
> I would get your fish whenever it is convenient for you.


The 1/3rd dose recommendation is key!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

FernKing said:


> The 1/3rd dose recommendation is key!


Thanks. I have always used it at 1/3 the dose. When I saw the GH go up so much with that dosage, I realized I didn't need any more, plus saved money.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Can you tell us what the issues were with the Wonder Shells? I have been recommending them and some caveats about how to use them properly might help.
> I would get your fish whenever it is convenient for you.


I cant even remember any more it was probably 10 years ago when i used them .... i think my issue might have been a spike in hardness but i cant remember. I think my friends in the hobby had a die off after using wonder shells.... but i cant remember the circumstances any longer. It more of having a vague bad impression of something and avoiding it for years without really remembering the original reasoning.
I think i will order my fish after the thanksgiving holiday. So monday the 28th that should give me time to hopfully get everything under control.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> I cant even remember any more it was probably 10 years ago when i used them .... i think my issue might have been a spike in hardness but i cant remember. I think my friends in the hobby had a die off after using wonder shells.... but i cant remember the circumstances any longer. It more of having a vague bad impression of something and avoiding it for years without really remembering the original reasoning.
> I think i will order my fish after the thanksgiving holiday. So monday the 28th that should give me time to hopfully get everything under control.


Give them another try. Wonder shells in a planted tank has been great for my plants and animals. The water looks great too.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So ive been to my pet store twice and my LFS and have forgotten to look for wonder shells all three times.......😑

I did remember to grab a bag of activated carbon to help clear the tank. Ill be stuffing a rectangular one from Fluval into my Eheim canister... didnt want to wait for shipping and absolutely no one carries Ehime around here.

Here some quick pics from Marcusfishtanks on etsy. Very happy with the experience and how well it handled that cold weather from Texas to Michigan.

























The d.sag is already trying to send up new leaves minimal melt and the RTL is perking up.

I have to get some good photos but about two days ago i noticed new shoots emerging at the base of all the reneckii variegated..... and they were all just as red and vibrant. I was floored i did not expect this plant to grow well let alone hold its color.

The collector in me wants to try like two or three other varieties and see how they do. 
The rotala colorata is poof, and the h'ra is....... present... sorta. All three swords (major, rose, marble queen) are ........ basically doing nothing.
I could ramble about other plants but i wont. 

I think i am down to 3 ghost shrimp. Found one dead when i was cleaning the other day and have only counted 3 for 2 days now. Cant say i am too surprised with the high mortality rate. I will pick up more next time my LFS gets some in.
Sent payment to Brian for my fish. So its final this tank will be home to 3 b.spots, 6 rainbow shiners and 6 redbelly dace. They will ship our next monday after the holidays.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Have you thought about detaching the rhizome from the RTL and starting another plant? Roots and soil should provide plenty of nourishment to the "parent" plant.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Have you thought about detaching the rhizome from the RTL and starting another plant? Roots and soil should provide plenty of nourishment to the "parent" plant.


I thought about it but i was not sure if i wanted to detach the tubor and plant OR if i just wanted to pull the tiny baby lily that survived from buce and put it in it own tiny pot and try to give it a better start outside of the tank or just change its location in the tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i just did a small water change and cleaning in the tank.
Also decided to see why the swords in the right corner are doing so poorly. I tugged lightly on the leaves of some of the worst looking ones and they pulled right up with either no new root growth very very little. This immediately made me think i might have a anaerobic pocket in that back corner, but other swords in that same area did not pull up at all.

So i replanted the healthy ones and had some bubbles come from the substrate, some of them pea sized. So i took my trimming scissors and poked the soil more all over on that side of the tank. I could not tell if there was any smell. So i will just play it safe and continue to poke. 
I am not sure if this is a case of a anaerobic pocket or just certain plants out competing each other, or healthy from unhealthy stock?

I added in the charcoal bag and had earlier this week added in some mechanical media and 1 course filter pad. I was concerned about the amount of debris that kept getting sucked into the powerhead of my canister.








I will probably keep the mechanical media to catch debris and prevent it from having stright access to the powerhead. Will probably just keep the course pad in till things get cleaned up a bit.

So things are pretty cloudy right now from all the disturbance i caused. Hopefully it clears up by tonight or ill do another small water change. I have the water lowered to 15"currently.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

At 15" high, there would be a smell as the bubbles break the surface. It may also just be CO2 being released.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

PlentyCoup said:


> So ive been to my pet store twice and my LFS and have forgotten to look for wonder shells all three times.......😑
> 
> I did remember to grab a bag of activated carbon to help clear the tank. Ill be stuffing a rectangular one from Fluval into my Eheim canister... didnt want to wait for shipping and absolutely no one carries Ehime around here.
> 
> ...


Ghost shrimp are mistreated in these fish stores. They would greatly benefit from being in a healthy planted tank where they can find lots of food and breed. And just because you can see only three doesn’t mean the rest aren’t hiding. They are called “ghost shrimp” for a reason. Adding extra shrimp from time to time will be good for your breeding population. Don’t get discouraged!
About your plants, what’s your water temp?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

FernKing said:


> Ghost shrimp are mistreated in these fish stores. They would greatly benefit from being in a healthy planted tank where they can find lots of food and breed. And just because you can see only three doesn’t mean the rest aren’t hiding. They are called “ghost shrimp” for a reason. Adding extra shrimp from time to time will be good for your breeding population. Don’t get discouraged!
> About your plants, what’s your water temp?


Well i can confirm 2 are dead. I fished one out 3 or so days after purchase and discovered a second dead the other day during a water change. So i can confirm 3 for sure hopefully the 4th is in there somewhere. 
The main 3 i see are really active. 

I plan on picking up maybe 6 more given the high mortality rate. The ghost shrimp at my pet store arnt too bad off. They are in a filtered aquarium with guppies not those giant over crowded tanks like the poor feeder comets. I do not however know under what conditions my pet store purchased them from. So i consider half survival pretty decent. 
















Heres the male and one of the females.
Right now unheated my tank is sitting at 71°.

You have got to try some of the reneckii, any of them, but especially the variegated in your next setup. Look at the knew leaves coming up as a new stem at the base.








Bit of a bad pic (i really need to take them with my camera and then upload them to my computer but i am lazy)








Also the almost black color on the houdori crypt is insane.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Drip acclimate the new shrimps. They're really sensitive at the start but are hardy after they settled in.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Drip acclimate the new shrimps. They're really sensitive at the start but are hardy after they settled in.


I did with the this first 6 i bought. Part of the reason i am just a bit surprised at the losses, but i will certainly do so again on the next group i buy.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So I think the charcoal bag is helping out. Tank looks clearer impo.








The Rotala h'ra has started to show its submerged leaves. The vals are a little strange. I have new plants from runners appearing everywhere but so far none of the new growth has exceeded about 2-3" in length. I also do not know how long it takes them to gain height. I know Diana talked extensively about vls in her book so i am going to take a look at that chapter again. 

I did however see other comments about short vals on other dicussions, no one had a real answer and most of those instances were on slightly older setups, 3 months or more. 

Also more good news. I threw in about 1/3 a sheet of the red seaweed, and discovered that I so indeed have four shrimp. Three large females and a male. So i am pretty thrilled with that.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So the fish ship today!🥳🥳🐟🦐
Brian emailed me last night to say confirm everything. 
I asked him about sailfin mollies and he has had them in the past but does not currently, and he also had to throw put there that they would be a good addition to the tank lol.

However he is going to Florida this winter and will try to collect some mollies. So @mistergreen i know you were after some wild sailfins. Brian might have some in the spring, if you dont find some before then. His prices and shipping are are very reasonable. 

He commented about the hardiness of wilds vs LFS stock. Made me think of the guppies and Diana's experience with longevity and health. It made me curious about checking out the sailfins at my LFS. I did not pay much attention to them when i was last in. Maybe i can try a pair or a single individual from my LFS if they look promising and see how they do. I think i remember seeing some that had simular colors to the wilds.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

*FISH ARRIVAL!! 🥳 *

So they just got delivered about 10 min ago. I am thrilled with how the timing worked out for their shipment. The weather was mild monday and tuesday but today temps are falling very quickly and its expected to be in the low 20s tonight. 
Heres how they were packaged.


























Everyone looks great very active, (totally freaked out of their little fishy minds)








The b.spots which Brian sent a extra of how unexpected and nice.

















The six rainbow shiners.









The redbelly dace which i also received another extra fish so seven total. 

Everyone is floating in the tank for a bit to come to temperature and then i will move everyone into their new home.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> *FISH ARRIVAL!! 🥳 *
> 
> So they just got delivered about 10 min ago. I am thrilled with how the timing worked out for their shipment. The weather was mild monday and tuesday but today temps are falling very quickly and its expected to be in the low 20s tonight.
> Heres how they were packaged.
> ...


Oh. My. Goodness. I couldn't be more excited for you.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So got fish food for everyone today. New life spectrum for the flake food and frozen mysis shrimp for the b.spots.
I was thinking of looking into what would be the best/easiest live food option for the b.spots cause they are proving (already) to be just as picky as advertised. They would grab bits of the flake food and immediately spit it out. The frozen mysis cube was immediately devoured.
The littlest b.spot is a friendly brave little bugger and has already earned himself/herself a name.
















This is Friendly Fred in honor of my grandpa. When asked for name suggestions for absolutely anything you knew what grandpas response would always be Fred.

Heres a sorta shot of all four of them. 
















They are still tiny probably 1.5-2" and Friendly is the smallest. The two largest have the prominent black stripe over their eyes and the third has the stripe just starting to show. Will see how it goes being able to tell them apart as they grow. 


















Heres the dace and shiners. The shiners really remind me of neon tetras. Simular body shape and movement but are so, so fast.
The dace on the other hand are are even quicker then the shiners. They have flat bellies and will go and rest on the substrate sometimes.
Right now everyone is schooling together. 

Omg i still cant get over the fact that there are finally FISH IN MY TANK 🥳 🐟🤩


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Can’t wait to see them color up.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Everyone is more active this am.
Hopefully the b.spots continue to grow more outgoing because as of right now they are a bit tricky to feed. Friendly Fred is front and center, but the other three hang back quite a bit.

















Heres the other three.








Feeding them at this point is a bit tricky. These three hide and trying to get them to notice the mysis shrimp before the dace and shiners gobble it up is not going that well. 
The dace and shiners are pigs complete and utter gluttons. 

Another interesting and slightly minor issue with all these guys, the b.spot in particular, is they do not go to the substrate to look for left over food. I do not if this will change over time but as of now if its not moving or floating in the water currant they ignore it. The frozen mysis for example if one of the b.spots misses a piece and it lands on the substrate next to them they do not make much if any effort to look for it. 
















Heres everyone else.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I have the same problem with apistos and danios whenever they are in the same tank. Frozen bloodworms seem to bring everyone out of hiding, but word on the street is that you shouldn't make it their permanent diet.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I have the same problem with apistos and danios whenever they are in the same tank. Frozen bloodworms seem to bring everyone out of hiding, but word on the street is that you shouldn't make it their permanent diet.


Yes my LFS also advised against bloodworms as a main diet. Advised to stick with various frozen shrimp as a main food source. Brain also says they will take live white or black worms. I wonder if the live brine shrimp factory you and Diana use might work or if that would be more suited to fry only.

I have absolutely no knowledge on the best or easiest forms of live food so i will have to research that. Supposedly they can be trained to take pellet food but i cant say my expectations are too high for that with how they have responded to the flake food. 
I just hope the b.spot become bolder as they adjust to me and their new environment because when they do see food they get a bit aggressive with who gets it.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

White worms are the easiest to culture with no offending smells. You might need to get a wine cooler for them though. They breed best at 55F-65F. You can feed them breadcrumbs and cat food so they're not picky about their diet. And use coco coir for their substrate.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Great to see fish in this tank! Could you post the supplier's website? I am thinking of native fish for one of my outdoor ponds.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The baby brine shrimp factory is in overdrive since the addition of heating pads (I thank @Michael steering me toward using one.) At >85F the eggs hatch in half the time and I wind up with twice the yield that I used to at room temperature alone. There's always enough to freeze at the end of the "day". The only downside, of course, is that you can't leave the house for more than a few days because there's no such thing as automatically feeding live or frozen food!

I have to LOL because I remember going back and forth with @spectre6000 on the practicality of raising daphnia in the same tank as the livestock. I didn't think it could be done without making a mess of his tank (which was only 9 gallons) and there was always the probability that his critters would get eaten before they could reproduce.

Now, I'm embarking on the same experiment with probably the same seller he engaged. The difference is that I think I have enough green water in my 30 gallon apisto tank to justify making the attempt _and_ I don't think my four apisto juvies are enough to completely overrun the herd. It'll be fun to give it a try.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Michael said:


> Great to see fish in this tank! Could you post the supplier's website? I am thinking of native fish for one of my outdoor ponds.


The seller is Brian Zimmerman in Ohio. 
Zimmerman's Fish - North American Native Fish - Price

https://m.facebook.com/100057389054900/

Facebook and website, all quotes and sales are done over email.
I have conversed with him off and on since 2015 when i initially started researching native fish. I had heard nothing but good things about his fish and now that i actually have made a purchase i would go no where else for native fish.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> The baby brine shrimp factory is in overdrive since the addition of heating pads (I thank @Michael steering me toward using one.) At >85F the eggs hatch in half the time and I wind up with twice the yield that I used to at room temperature alone. There's always enough to freeze at the end of the "day". The only downside, of course, is that you can't leave the house for more than a few days because there's no such thing as automatically feeding live or frozen food!
> 
> I have to LOL because I remember going back and forth with @spectre6000 on the practicality of raising daphnia in the same tank as the livestock. I didn't think it could be done without making a mess of his tank (which was only 9 gallons) and there was always the probability that his critters would get eaten before they could reproduce.
> 
> Now, I'm embarking on the same experiment with probably the same seller he engaged. The difference is that I think I have enough green water in my 30 gallon apisto tank to justify making the attempt _and_ I don't think my four apisto juvies are enough to completely overrun the herd. It'll be fun to give it a try.


I to see if i can find a good seller for a white worm culture i think that will be my best bet for live food for them.

Good luck with that venture. I have had my fish for less then a say and i already know that would never work with these guys. I am pretty sure they would eat until there was nothing left to eat lol.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So everyone seems to be settling in really well. All four of the b.spots growing bolder. I spent about half a hour trying to snap individual pics of the four so i can to keep track of how they change as they grow and hopefully help me to continue to tell them apart.
So far Fred Friendly is easiest to tell apart. He/she is the smallest and has the most noticeable banding.








Not the best pic but the banding shows up well in this one.
This one is the next easiest to tell apart. He/she is the largest and the darkest colored with very little visible banding but very prominent band over eyes.









Now these last two are a bit harder to tell apart at a glance. 
This guy is the next smallest almost uniform in color..... closer to a muddy tan then any of the others. Basically no banding. 
















He/she is the one in the center but this was a ok pic that sort of picked out the differences in shade between the four. 

And this is final b.spot. As i am typing this i am now not actually sure if this guy isnt actually larger then the dark colored one. He/she is however the shyest it was almost impossible to get even a passable picture....








Yah this is the best i could get. Has the darkest eye bands and is more of a medium color with some light banding. 
Now the question will be if any of these differences will stay consistent as they grow. 

The lid is certainly a must for these fish especially the dace and shiners. Hopefully this changes but as of now the light turning on and off really freaks these guys out. I have had two times where a dace or shiner has near hit the cover when the lights have turned on. Hopefully this response lessens and until then hopefully no one jumps near where the cut outs are in the back of the cover. 

The BGA is almost gone and now i just have the green stuff on the glass. I am keeping a eye out for any major changes in plant growth now that the fish are added.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Pretty little fish. They look healthy.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Everyone is doing real well and everyone is very healthy. I am thrilled to be able to have a reliable source for native fish.








Wow i am both a terrible aquascaper and photographer that is one crooked picture.
The reneckii varigated has new growth from the base that is just as wonderfully red as it ever was.
The crypts are all wonderful.
The echinodorus major is doing awful leaves turning transparent and melting off.
The other two (rose, marble queen) are doing so-so.
The vals are strange. Runners and new plants everywhere but absolutely no height to the growth. If anyone knows why that is please share...
The knotweed is amazing and should have been a background plant not a midground........ my plant placement is not working out quite how i thought it would.

I have at three maybe four male redbelly dace that are starting to show their colors. One in particular has the bright yellow fins and this am was starting to show the bright red at the jaw and fin joints. Most of it was gone though after the afternoon siesta.








This is a pic from this am. Its the fat one lol on the left that has been showing the most color.
Its harder to tell with the shiners but i think they are trying to show more color.

Fred Friendly and the dark large one (thinking of calling him Goodnight, ive been on a western binge lately......then if i do that i should call Friendly Billy they seem to stick together 😅😅😂) have learned to come to the top of the tank when they hear me move the lid for feeding time. The dace are super aggressive when eating, they will literally steal out another fishs mouth. So those two b.pots have learned to come right to top for the best chances.
The two paler colored ones havent really gotten the hang of it. They hang near the bottom and seem to spend more time chasing each other the anything else..... they dont seem to like each other lol.

I am not sure or have asked if sexing b.spots is possible when they are juveniles. I know adult males can be darker colored then females but i am not sure if their is major distinguishing features between males and females. So i currently have no idea what sort of gender mix i have with these four.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You might have to hand feed the shy fish with a long aquascaping tweezer. I have aggressive feeding guppies and I noticed the population of the more gentile feeders diminished over time. I’m also feeding twice a day now since I’ve added some monster killifishes.

I just started growing earthworms for composting and feeding the killifish. I thought about restarting a white worm culture but my wine cooler died.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

The tweezer method is working..... pretty well lol. Thanks @mistergreen

Three of the sunfish have got it down pat. They come to the top and i am able to get a tweezer full of mysis off near the pale ones who is still a bit shy. The biggest dark one and smallest eat right off the tweezers. The fourth sunfish pale one with eye bands...... is not the brightest.... at all..... ive already startes calling him DumDum. Still hangs at the bottom of the tank and has like 0 situational awareness.

I will let a tweezer full off right in front of him and he will swim right by it and then finally gets the memo when the bottomless pit dace show up. Even then half the time he'll go after a leaf or his reflection or even one of the other sunfish before he gets with the program about the food.

The dace are..... aggressive feeders..... bottomless pits is what they really are. They go in and our of color super easily i have never seen anything like it. One of the biggest has almost lived up to the name redbelly dace.








They seem to loose almost all the red anytime lights go off and seem to regain the most color right after or during feedings.
They also picked up on the tweezer trick. So i end up looking like a crazy person waving the tweezers all over the tank trying to feed the sun fish with at least four of the dace chasing the tweezers like single minded gluttons.

I can not wait till the b.spot get closer to their mature size and are hopefully able to throw their weight around a little more. They do now but right now the dace are bigger then they are.









Thst pic turned out really dark for some reason. I went in and cleaned the walls a bit yesterday and had all 7 dace nibbling on my hand the whole time.
I am debating on buyong more of the knot weed to put in the back right corner by the intake where the echinodorus major is doing diddly squat, or just waiting until i can trim what i have and transplant that. If I do order more i could add in some of that ludwigia @dwalstad had mentioned.

I need to figure out what is up with the tiger vals. Still runners galore bit no height past about 3". That combined with the swords makes me think i have some sort of nutrient deficiency going on. 
Heres the echinodorus major.








And the hygro compacta looks like its having a issue with new growth thats twisted and shaped a little off. 

















And finally the vals. Loads of runners but absolutely no height.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Some wild fishes need to see their food wiggle, lol. That's the challenge in raising them.

Oooh, the red belly dace is coloring up nicely.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Some wild fishes need to see their food wiggle, lol. That's the challenge in raising them.
> 
> Oooh, the red belly dace is coloring up nicely.


Clearly lol. Wanted to show you another pic of the dace.
This is the same dace that had the red belly from this am.
















The big guy (also the only one in focus ) im affectionately calling Pig has just a hint of red at the fin joints and jaw. Ill take some pics after ive fed everyone. I have been told that the dace go in and out of color regularly but i did not think they ment those changes were hourly lol. 
I was trying to get pics of the shiners to much less success. 









And heres the smart children at the top of the tank for dinner. 









And heres DumDum......








Hes out of his coveted corner.... so progress... i guess 😅


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Did we talk about GH? Val and swordplants are plants that need hardwater, especially with calcium. This problem may sort out with time, but make sure you have some calcium in the water.
The twisted swordplant growth reminds me of excess micronutrients and metal toxicity from a subsoil I once used. Remind me what kind of soil you used?
In all you've got some cute fish and I am glad you are enjoying them.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Did we talk about GH? Val and swordplants are plants that need hardwater, especially with calcium. This problem may sort out with time, but make sure you have some calcium in the water.
> The twisted swordplant growth reminds me of excess micronutrients and metal toxicity from a subsoil I once used. Remind me what kind of soil you used?
> In all you've got some cute fish and I am glad you are enjoying them.


Yes we have talked extensively about GH mostly with my betta tank and how the hardness got too high when i was adding CSM+B to deal with iron deficiency.

Just checked the hardness it is reading 9 so about 141ppm. I have city water so hardness has never really been a issue.

Do you mean the twisted leaves on the hygro compacta? The swords just have little to no growth and all the leaves turn transparent.

My soil was compost 50/50 mix of compost and play sand. I dont know if this would effect anything but i had it delivered in summer 2021 and then didnt use all of it so it sat in the driveway all winter until i finished putting it down this summer. So... is it possible it could have picked up contamination from something? But if that was the case i would think i would see issues with other plants. 

I am not sure how much of a water nutrient indicator buce are both of mine are growing new roots and new leaves. Something is clearly up with these three plants. 

Are test kits for iron, calcium etc expensive? I have been meaning to look into kits that test for the all those.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

In the midst of all the stuff going i had to post a pic of Pig this evening. 








He and another one were both in full colors tonight. 
Also two of the b.spots are beginning to show the first sings of the iridescent blue spots.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Everyone gathered for breakfast this morning. 









Still have to figure out what is up with the plants.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So bees cruising forums and Dianas book trying to figure out what is up with the vals, hygro compacta, and swords.

So the vals are sending runners all over the tank but i just noticed something. I planted vals in the left corner of the tank and on the right side next to the moss rock.

The vals on the left corner have sent out probably 10 or more runners from i believe 3 or 4 mother plants.
The 2 mother plants by the moss rock appear to have sent out only 1 runner.
Non of the baby vals have grown taller then about 3-4in.

Now i bring this up because the vals on the right side that are not sending out runners is on the same side as the as the swords that are not growing and the hygro compacta with the twisted new leaves.
So im am wondering if their something up with the soil on that side of the tank? I have been regularly poking the soil on that side to try and prevent any anaerobic pockets from forming while i try to figure out what is up.
Tried to take some better photos this am.








Echinodorus major.








The vals right by the rock and echinodorus maeble queen it is not doing as bad echinodorus major.








Echinodorus major with a photo bomb by Goodnight.









Hygro compacta twisted new growth and another photo bomb by Goodnight.
















Now the hygro was also sending new growth from the base and this growth is not twisted but it appears to have slowed in its growth.

So on my online searches most people go to Ca deficiency with twisted leaves sometimes boron with my water hardness i dont think this would be a issue. Hardness 9 or approx 141 ppm.
For the swords the go too for how mine are looking is root tabs. I could find no real consensus on the vals. Of course 90% of the posts i was reading were high tech tanks. So needing root tabs in a tank with compost makes no sense. However i decided to research compost more found this which had some interesting info (hasnt been updated in almost 10 years)
https://ag.umass.edu/vegetable/fact-sheets/compost-use-soil-fertility
Most of what i find online is geared towards farmers crops etc. But the general consensus is that compost has lower nutrients then fertilizers and releases those nutrients over a longer period of time.
So maybe the compost really is lacking in some sort of nutrient that the swords in particular need?

On the opposite end i should never need to add root tabs because my plants are not in a rapid growth environment like high tech tanks. 
I could however be deficient in a micro nutrient such as iron which i now know is a issue for me with this batch of compost.

I have noticed a slight slowing in overall plant growth across the entire tank. The new d.sag have also not sent off much new growth or any runners. 

Going to go thorough The Book now and see if i can have a Aha moment.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Try poking around the problem plants to smell if there are anaerobic bubbles.
It couldn't hurt to use root tabs under the plants that are struggling.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So @mistergreen was right. Despite what i thought was sufficient poking it appears have anaerobic pocket in that corner of the tank. I because of the angle and the height it was hard to get a smell but i think these echinodorus major plants i pulled up are evidence enough.
















So i did not apparently have enough fast growing rooted plants on that side of the tank to oxygenate the soil while the slower growing swords filled in. I am surprised the val on that side of the didnt suffice. 

So i made a bit of a mess of the tank with all the poking and massive amount of bubbles that came up. 

I had been planning on checking out this area tomorrow but i had to go to the pet store this time for dog food and of course i head right to the tanks like a fool. 
And i spy a very nice looking echinodorus ozelot. I mean when i clearly struggling to grow swords i should pick up another right? 🙄
So i dont see a price go ask one of the employees. Its 7.99 and then pointa to the sign i totally overlooked all fish and plants 50% off christmas sale.....sold 








So by buying this guy i then had to tackle that corner of the tank tonight.
The anaerobic pocket was particularly bad in the very corner and then directly under the roots of two of the swords and the tiger lotus. 
So i poked like mad pulled up the echinodorus major accidentally detached the tiger lotus from the tubor. I only saved 2 of the swords planted the new ozelot sword there and moved the lotus closer to the front of the tank. 

I ended up moving one of the tropica crypts to the new vase to make room for the lotus along with a piece of both the buce (cascade king, belindea) both of which are growing really well, and the lotus tuber itself. So we will see how all that does. 
Looks like i will have to be more diligent about poking that area. I probably should have moved a piece of that knot weed into that corner as well. 
Nobody was too thrilled by my late night disturbance of their home.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Hmm, I wonder if we can inject hydrogen peroxide into the dead spot with a syringe or turkey baster, the anaerobic condition would go away pretty fast. H2O2 would break down to pure O2.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I have never used H202 in any of my tanks. I have heard mixed opinions about it. 
I will look into it and continue to poke that whole area. Apparently just poking was not enough, i have to poke and then wiggle the pruning scissor around in order for the bubble to appear. 

I will poke again this afternoon before the water change the water is still ait cloudy after last night. 

In other news after taking about 30 photos i managed to get this shot. 








The only somewhat passable pic of the first sunfish to start showing their name sake.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Using small amounts of H2O2 is perfectly safe, like 1ml/Gal or less. I think the max is 3ml/Gal.

OOh, the sunfish is coloring up.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> Yes we have talked extensively about GH mostly with my betta tank and how the hardness got too high when i was adding CSM+B to deal with iron deficiency.
> 
> Just checked the hardness it is reading 9 so about 141ppm. I have city water so hardness has never really been a issue.
> 
> ...


I don't think your plants are lacking nutrients. I think the whole problem is the 50% compost in the substrate. It is decomposing too fast.

Compost is too rich in easily digestible organic matter. I don't think people grow houseplants in 50% compost. Rather it is used in limited quantities as an amendment to terrestrial soils. And we don't know how well this compost has been "composted." It could be relatively fresh.

Potting soil contains peat moss which is less nutrient rich and it has an acidic pH. That slows down the rate of decomposition.

The photos of your plants with dead roots says it all. Sorry, but I don't think there are any easy remedies here.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> I don't think your plants are lacking nutrients. I think the whole problem is the 50% compost in the substrate. It is decomposing too fast.
> 
> Compost is too rich in easily digestible organic matter. I don't think people grow houseplants in 50% compost. Rather it is used in limited quantities as an amendment to terrestrial soils. And we don't know how well this compost has been "composted." It could be relatively fresh.
> 
> ...


That doesnt really make any sense to me. 
When I started my betta tank back in 2021 i asked about compost in the suitable soil dicussion and i was told it would be fine in a 50/50 mix with sand i will have to look back through that discussion to see. 
I had read about other people useing compost mix as well. 

I also know several people who breed/sell a varity of perennials that pot up plants in a 50/50 mix of compost and shredded pine bark. 

So are you saying that the dead roots in that corner of the tank is not an anaerobic pocket? Caused by my lack of placement of fast growing plants on that side of the tank?
What about the rest of the plants in the tank that are doing well and the 2 crypts i pulled up to put in the vase that have a very large healthy root system? 
The compost came from our local waste authority and we had it delivered in the spring of 2021 and it sat in my driveway for almost 2 years before I put it the 36gal...... so i would consider that a fairly decent time to "compost" and if i remember correctly the waste authority follows a timeframe/procedure for their compost. 

I am just a bit shocked i am suddendly just being told this now when i have been using it for over a year now......

So what your basical saying is... what the compost is rotting in the tank and the plants are not able to utilize the nutrients in the soil? That it is somehow what is preventing the vals from growing tall? That the soil will be or already is bankrupt of nutriants?

Some more info and context would be great. I dont want to tear down the tank when in actuality it was simply an anaerobic pocket in that corner.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i want back and found my original question about the compost (on page 30-31 i think)
It should be fine is my tank away from rereading them but that it would be a bit more of a experiment then standard potting soil. 
So far my main lesson learned from compost is that it is much more prone to anaerobic pockets and that iron deficiency is a issue.

But based on what i was originally told and my finding of a anaerobic pocket i am not seeing any red flags to tear it down and start over unless i can be given a more concrete explination.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Maybe it’s just a matter of being a little too compact and not letting O2 flow through. That‘s why you have issues with corners where flow is least. Maybe play with the proportions in the future like 65% sand and even small gravel.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> So i want back and found my original question about the compost (on page 30-31 i think)
> It should be fine is my tank away from rereading them but that it would be a bit more of a experiment then standard potting soil.
> So far my main lesson learned from compost is that it is much more prone to anaerobic pockets and that iron deficiency is a issue.
> 
> But based on what i was originally told and my finding of a anaerobic pocket i am not seeing any red flags to tear it down and start over unless i can be given a more concrete explination.


Sorry if I was too negative. You are much more in tune than I am about what's going on in your tank.
I'm not suggesting that you tear it down. If the problem is just in one corner, then Mistergreen's advice is good.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Also, not to belabor the point, but here are @dwalstad's replies to the earlier thread:


dwalstad said:


> I would be careful, since it is entirely made of organic matter. Perhaps mix it 1:1 with sand, STS, or soil from your garden? You may need to experiment.





dwalstad said:


> You are experimenting here, as there are a hundred other variables (light, water, plant species, substrate depth, etc) that will also influence the results. That said, diluting compost, which is 100% organic, with an inert material (STS or sand) is probably a good place to start.


I also agree that this is just a cautionary tale and that you have a fine handle on what's going on. I have the greatest admiration for everyone involved in this thread!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Sorry if I was too negative. You are much more in tune than I am about what's going on in your tank.
> I'm not suggesting that you tear it down. If the problem is just in one corner, then Mistergreen's advice is good.


Its not being negative just cautious (and slightly heart attack inducing at the initial thought of a redo) and i always greatly value your advice sorry for the initial freak out posts.

I am lacking in the chemistry aspect/knowledge to be able to definitively figure out all the time what is lacking or that i am effectively able explain something going on in the tank..

I think the issue with the swords is the anaerobic pocket. I also found a few bubbles under the hygro compacta but i dont a anaerobic pocke would cause twisted leaves so that makes mw thinks that is a unrelated issue. However i would say that a anaerobic pocket showing up somewhere in a tank are a major concern and i almost a guarantee as opposed to purchased soils. 

Also the vals, runners everywhere but no height growth so far past 3" or so. Other people on online have had simular issues sometimes it just resolved with time, the plant sent out runners and the after 4-5 months finally started growing in height but i could find no real conclusion. 

Unlike bagged soil i do not have a guaranteed analysis of its makeup so i have to figure put what could be too much or not enough like iron, this batch of compost and my water are lacking in iron.

Would a soil test of the compost give me the info i need to know of its make up?
Is there a home kit for testing fe, mg, N, P, K etc? There must be i just have not had success of finding anything online.

I have some dry ferts still but they are old.... and i am waiting on my order of iron. I dont want to add any fets without knowing what is necessary or not.

The sad thing is that after my initial freak out posts and further reading determined that i dont have to tear it down the idea sat in the back of my head... why because i am a terrible aqua scaper and my plant placement is abysmal. 








Heres this this am dirty and need of water change which i did not get too last night. 
Also i just noticed last night that the h.trip japan has recovered i had written it off as lost but since adding fish to the tank it has recovered and is growing quite aggressively. 

I also agree with possibly upping the sand to compost ratio to see if that helps. It has me considering tearing down the betta vase i set up and either adding more sand or going out an buying a bag of organic soil to and planting iy up with that as a comparison to my other two tanks.

Compost defiantly has its pit falls but i am hoping that its high organic content means that it will have a possibly longer set up life. 

Hopefully you are able to point in the right direction of how to best get individual reading of the makeup of the tank and soil.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Its not being negative just cautious (and slightly heart attack inducing at the initial thought of a redo) and i always greatly value your advice sorry for the initial freak out posts.
> 
> I am lacking in the chemistry aspect/knowledge to be able to definitively figure out all the time what is lacking or that i am effectively able explain something going on in the tank..
> 
> ...


Honestly, I am blown away by how pretty your tank looks - cloudiness and all. The fish, the plants, the aquascaping, all hang together beautifully. It would be ridiculous, if you didn't have a few bumps on the road along the way. I would be reluctant to blame lack of ferts for any problems.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Honestly, I am blown away by how pretty your tank looks - cloudiness and all. The fish, the plants, the aquascaping, all hang together beautifully. It would be ridiculous, if you didn't have a few bumps on the road along the way. I would be reluctant to blame lack of ferts for any problems.


Thank you for thinking so! I am a bit hung up by the lack of height from the vals and the absolutely insane growth from the knot weed and how it is NOT a midground plant AT ALL lol. 
Some of my other plant placements are questionable and it was hard to know what was going to thrive and fail from my plant selection. The AR variegated continues to amaze me. 
I am seriously hoping the large anaerobic pocket ( it has to be at least 4" or so long by 2" or so wide) is the biggest hiccup. 
I would be reluctant to blame ferts as well but with the know issue of iron deficiency in my tanks make me wonder what else could be lacking. And the vals just completely confuse me.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Just had another thought as i was feeding everyone.
It looks like my Caribsea cap is thin in places so i wonder if that is leaching excess nutrients to the tank and contributing to green fuzz algae on the walls and leaves or the strange growth with the hygos and vals. 

Also if i am having these issues with anaerobic pockets then some MTS (which have been suggested to me) would be a benefit.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

There are a few things missing in your mixture that are in loam soil. The components are organics, sand, silt, and clay. You have organics, and sand but not silt and clay. They provide the minerals and nutrients like calcium, magnesium, potassium, and iron/micros in the clay. You can easily fix that by sprinkling dolomite lime, potassium, and iron amendments in the soil.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So just finished the water change at 12:30 am.... fun times and more bad news.

Discovered two new anaerobic pockets by accident. I bumped the largest rock in the back with the siphon and a several bubbles the size of a nail head appeared. Wiggled the rock more bubbles. So not only is my substrate causing some issues but my hardscape as well.... swell

The second area was in the very front where one of the skinny ends of the drift wood goes into the soil. This area confuses me a bit because its close to the h.trip japan which is starting to take off.

This whole situation makes me feel like a fool that didnt properly prepare. Which i basically was. In my attempt to save money and use what i already had on hand i have caused more headaches. 

I did not amend the compost properly to begin with and was too new to this method to experiment. I think that it will continue to cause me more issues as it is now, especially if i have anaerobic pockets under/around the hardscape.i have also been looking at my original betta tank and reevaluating it. Yes its doing ok and the rotala is a weed but i dont think it is doing as well as it could be. 

At this point i am beginning to lean towards a rodo which will be a hellish undertaking especially with the fish. I also have to find suitable soil before i make a final decision. But i am very concerned about the new anaerobic pockets and the health of the fish first and foremost. If i missed those two areas despite poking the substrate what else have i missed. 

I will certainly be removing the compost from the new vase and picking another option.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> So just finished the water change at 12:30 am.... fun times and more bad news.
> 
> Discovered two new anaerobic pockets by accident. I bumped the largest rock in the back with the siphon and a several bubbles the size of a nail head appeared. Wiggled the rock more bubbles. So not only is my substrate causing some issues but my hardscape as well.... swell
> 
> ...


Woah, there. Steady. Anaerobic pockets are far more harmful to plants than they are to fish. Once any gas is released it goes straight to the surface and dissipates into the air. So, the health of your fish should not be a concern. Right now, I'm more worried about the health of the thread-starter! Get some sleep. You may have to tolerate a few more days of cloudy water as you redo your hardscape. None of it should be lying on top of the soil; it should be touching the glass bottom of your tank. I think you know that already.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Well, any soil will go anaerobic under rocks and such. They block flow. I’d remove the rocks and keep poking. It’ll get there.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I have successfully used compost, but I mineralize it first (soak and drain, allow to dry slowly, and repeat). And I mix it 50/50 with a high cation exchange capacity (CEC) substrate. Fired clay products are good for this, like Safe-T-Sorb, Turface, Fluorite, etc. Sand helps, but not as much because it is inert. It has no CEC and does not absorb nutrients and hold them until the plant roots come looking for them.

You can't compare the use of compost for terrestrial plants with aquarium conditions because terrestrial soils have much more access to oxygen from the atmosphere.

That said, I don't think you need to tear the tank down. Keep poking, maybe rearrange the hardscape, and mistergreen's idea of injecting some hydrogen peroxide into the substrate is worth trying.

There was a bad TV series called "Kung Fu" in which the blind kung fu master always said to his student, "Patience, grasshopper!"


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

New rule someone lock my account so i cant post past 11pm....... i hate that the only time i am freely able to work on my tanks is late at night.

So did some more investigating this am after after sleep and a full pot of coffee. 
The bubbles that i thought were coming from the largest rock where actually coming from these two tiny rocks that i had put between the large rock and the driftwood i had added after the tank was planted and filled. 

So i wiggled that drift wood piece around and got it so i could hear it squeaking on the bottom of the aquarium glass. I am a bit concerned about the branch that comes off that piece of driftwood and supports it from falling over. It is in/resting on the substrate before it touches glass.

I guess i need to either move the the drift wood a bit away from the base of the large rock and fit those two smaller pieces in better or stick a plant there (suggestions) that will grow in the soil of that crevice. 

I am wondering if the anaerobic pocket started under those tiny rocks and drift wood and spread to that whole corner of the tank as i am not seeing this issue on the hardscape pieces added before planting. Even the other large driftwood piece that started to float away at one point isnt having this issue. 

I am still not to thrilled with some of the plant placement, which is to be expected with the species i tried and not knowing what would grow or not.
The driftwood piece in question that is causing the issue as well as the two rocks.
















And this is the crevice space where most of the bubbles were coming from








So i need to make sure that piece is actually in contact with the bottom of the tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So everything with this tank is at a bit of a standstill while i battle my bad luck run with the betta vase.
I am continuing to poke the soil and appear to be making a dent in the anaerobic spots i am seeing less and less bubbles. 
Of course all this disturbance is making the tank a constant mess. 
Everyone is doing great despite everything going on and i am 90% sure that one of the female ghost shrimp is carrying eggs. 

So i still have no idea which direction or how to tackle the mistakes i made in the initial setup. Once i am done tackling the vase i will figure out what nutriants @mistergreen talked about that could be affecting growth in my tank and how best or if they need to be added in.
If it wasnt such a nightmareish prospect i would rip it down and start over . Working with the plants already in the tank would have me off to a better start then my first set up and i have a better handle on what to expect, plant placement and no floating drift wood. 

I bought the 40lb of STS and if i compare it to the bag of aquatic planting media i had i am not as big of a fan.
I spent over a half hour rinsing and dumping dirty/cloudy water before i could get the water to this state of mild clarity 
















This is probably pretty clear for STS. The aquatic planting media on the other hand only had to be rinsed 3 times for the water to be clear. So for that time saver is worth ordering it from amazon for $27. There is also the guarantee that it is made for all aquatic life. 

Any way i should be putting all this in my vase journal. But now that i have the STS or buy the aquatic medai from amazon it temps me to redo the tank. It being winter is one of my major hold backs. I basically have to have a hose and access to out doors to properly rinse and clean out the tank. Dumping out water and trying to rinse stuff when its 12° out is not fun.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Those gas bubbles could be just CO2 from harmless decomposition. After I set up my tanks, there are lots of bubbles.
Only if the plants are not growing and the bubbles stink (like the rotten egg smell of H2S) would I be concerned. 
And don't let rocks and driftwood cover the soil. You can always remove them temporarily.
I think your tank might be fine with the attention you are giving it. Be encouraged by the fact that the fish and shrimp are doing so well. It's always great to see a shrimp carrying eggs!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> I bought the 40lb of STS and if i compare it to the bag of aquatic planting media i had i am not as big of a fan.
> I spent over a half hour rinsing and dumping dirty/cloudy water before i could get the water to this state of mild clarity


Oh, honey, no. That's not how you handle STS. Its very porousness is both its biggest advantage and its greatest pain in the butt. You can wash it until the grains basically become sand (and maybe that's what you were trying to do), but I find it best to put up with a bit of cloudiness and just rinse it a couple of times to get rid of the dust.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Oh, honey, no. That's not how you handle STS. Its very porousness is both its biggest advantage and its greatest pain in the butt. You can wash it until the grains basically become sand (and maybe that's what you were trying to do), but I find it best to put up with a bit of cloudiness and just rinse it a couple of times to get rid of the dust.


😂😂😂 LMAO because i am reading this as i rinse the sts again because the water went grey when i stirred it and my OCD kicked into overdrive.
For this reason alone i am going to buy that overpriced bag of aquatic low fired clay because it was a complete dream work with. But i will be giving the STS a shot because i didnt feel comfortable waiting till friday (amazom primes 2 day delivery is a LIE) as i have a fish (again) and all the plants and driftwood from the vase floating around in this tank lol. 
What level of cloudiness is ok? Becuse now its looking like this


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Are you adding the STS into the soil or capping? If in the soil, it doesn’t need to be rinsed. If a cap, you can add a flocculant and filter out the murkiness.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Those gas bubbles could be just CO2 from harmless decomposition. After I set up my tanks, there are lots of bubbles.
> Only if the plants are not growing and the bubbles stink (like the rotten egg smell of H2S) would I be concerned.
> And don't let rocks and driftwood cover the soil. You can always remove them temporarily.
> I think your tank might be fine with the attention you are giving it. Be encouraged by the fact that the fish and shrimp are doing so well. It's always great to see a shrimp carrying eggs!


I think you might be right about it being co2 bubbles in at least one of the areas where tge HT japan is taking off. That area in the front shows no sign of poor growth like the corner with the swords. So i hopefully i am on the getting back on the right track . 
None of the rocks or driftwood are on top of the soil expect for those two real small pieces. The only other issue was the piece that i added in after the tank was planted. I think it got bumped and wasnt quite touching the bottom of the tank.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Are you adding the STS into the soil or capping? If in the soil, it doesn’t need to be rinsed. If a cap, you can add a flocculant and filter out the murkiness.


Adding into the soil and capping with caribsea naturals rio grande 2-4 mm substrate.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Adding into the soil and capping with caribsea naturals rio grande 2-4 mm substrate.


I think it'll be fine as is.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Carabsea used to sell crushed small black lava rock. I liked to cap soil with that.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Carabsea used to sell crushed small black lava rock. I liked to cap soil with that.


I used to use that as well but i havent seen it in a while. They have cut back on their product and size range of substrate i think. Peace River is another one you cant really find anymore.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Omg look at this picture!!!!








THE BLUE!!!!! AND THE RED!!!

Everyone was in fine form this evening.









And the shinners. I cant not get a decent pic of them to save my life but they are also stunning. They are getting that deep purple indigo color on their heads and blue on their fins.
The little brats will not stay still and the camera on my phone is TRASH.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i am debating a dose of CSM+B because...... i cant really figure out whats wrong still.....
I think i have the anaerobic pocket under control in the back right corner where the sword are. I cant really tell yet if i have any new growth but i think the new Ozelot sword is holding it own and sending out some new leaves.

The vals are still not showing any height but the knot weed, the india plants thats supposed to hard to grow and the guppy weed are all growing like well.... weeds.
The crypts are sending out new leaves are a pretty steady rate maybe a bit slower.

The hygro is still showing twisted leaves on new growth but its the only plants in the tank that is doing so.
The AR varigated has sent out a bunch of new leaves from the base but they have also seemed to stall on height growth.

So this lack of one single consistent symptom across all the plants is really stumping me.








I am having a bit of a algae outbreak mainly on the leaves and the glass. 








Heres the hygro. 








Heres a pic of the b. Spots..... and i cant really tell any of them apart any more lol... expect Dum-Dum cause he still hangs at the bottom of the tank and Friendly cause hes still slightly smaller then the others. But all four of them have just about lost any stripes they had and they are getting bigger which just kind of jumped out at me today. 

Tried to get some pics if the shiners. That iridescent blue color is just stunning.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

So i added in..... what was it a dash i think of CSM+B to the tank two days ago. I eared on the side of caution and added less then what i probably could have.
Hopefully i begin to see improvement or at least manage to figure out what exactly i am dealing with deficiency wise.

I am having a bit of a algae outbreak..... or well just a continuation of algae. A bunch of the frogbit got thrown out because i discovered that the roots of quite a bit of it were over run with hair algae. I have not had to deal with hair algae in long time and i had forgotten just how much i hate, hate, hate dealing with it. 
Thankfully it seems to be only in the roots of the frogbit that are being effected, i didnt find it on any other plants. 








The walls are filthy and need to be wiped down. 
I also suddenly noticed that my anubias coffeefolia has its first new leaf. Now i dont know if this in any way correlates with me adding the micros but i was thrilled when i noticed it tonight. 








The kids kept photo bombing








Lol

The Ozelot sword seems to be holding its own in the former anaerobic corner. 

I am hoping to see improvement with the leopard vals they are sending runners all the way to the front of the tank but still no height. 

Also i noticed some interesting behavior between some of the rainbow shiners this am. Two of the more colorful shiners (more blue) were chasing and seemed to fighting over another shiner with slightly less blue. I am assuming this was 2 males and a female but i have not really able to tell male from female for any of them.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Yeah, I never knew hair algae existed until about a year ago and it has been a constant presence ever since. I'm mystified by how long it takes to actually kill its host, thus resulting in what I call, "zombie plants", plants encrusted with the stuff for what seems forever before they actually melt and die.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PlentyCoup said:


> So i added in..... what was it a dash i think of CSM+B to the tank two days ago. I eared on the side of caution and added less then what i probably could have.
> Hopefully i begin to see improvement or at least manage to figure out what exactly i am dealing with deficiency wise.
> 
> I am having a bit of a algae outbreak..... or well just a continuation of algae. A bunch of the frogbit got thrown out because i discovered that the roots of quite a bit of it were over run with hair algae. I have not had to deal with hair algae in long time and i had forgotten just how much i hate, hate, hate dealing with it.
> ...


I would manually remove the clumps of hair algae shown in this photo. A stitch in time saves nine... With an old toothbrush, it takes less than 5 minutes. Fish look great...


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yeah, I never knew hair algae existed until about a year ago and it has been a constant presence ever since. I'm mystified by how long it takes to actually kill its host, thus resulting in what I call, "zombie plants", plants encrusted with the stuff for what seems forever before they actually melt and die.


I know its driving me insane! I have enough issues i dont need zombie plants added to the list.
I am planning on doing a deep cleaning on the tank tonight. I will probably end up throwing out any and all frogbit that had hair algae on it.
Gonna clean up any dead leaves and try to get algae off the leaves of the plants.
My LFS still has not gotton in the sail fin mollies in which is a bummer.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> I would manually remove the clumps of hair algae shown in this photo. A stitch in time saves nine... With an old toothbrush, it takes less than 5 minutes. Fish look great...


Yah i planned on cleaning the tank tonight and i still not home yet ugh. I'll do it tonight come hell or high water i ve already put it off for two days. 

Thanks for the tip about the tooth brush sounds like it would make it alot easier. 

Everyone is doing wonderfully. All the sunnies look like they are closing in on the 2in make in size. Also i cant imagine how these guys (unless wild caught) have a reputation for being shy or hiding. Everyone, dace, shinners, and sunnies are out and watching everything. They like swimming around and nipping at my fingers when i clean the tank.


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