# State of our Hobby...



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Almost half way through the year *2005* and, in my opinion, the state of our hobby is *good*, but *not great*.

We have made great strides in understanding how to manage *algae-free* aquariums. Although, we still don't have a clear understanding of why this is the case. Kind of a *black box* thing.

The availability of aquarium plants has become much better. And, heck, we have *shrimps* now! However, local fish stores remain appalling places to buy plants.

How do you think we've doing? Are more people joining our ranks? Are magazines giving us more exposure?

What do you think the future holds?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I would like to see a future where plants are sold with a guarantee: Free of hair algae. Or, at least they could be guaranteed to be free of the baddies: Cladophora, Rhizoclonium, Oedogonium, and black beard alga.


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

I still struggle with LFSs that could care less about "real" planted tanks. I guess there's more interest in selling expensive reef systems & livestock still.

I've tried to persuade some of my LFSs, but they don't seem to care. The only LFS that seems to understand the concept of planted tanks around here also stocks dye-injected cories, glassfish, etc.; not my favorite.


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

I see the hobby slowly growing -- it's a hobby that can appeal to animal lovers who don't have the space to keep larger pets. There's no hair so those allergic to pet hair also can participate. It's a hobby purported to help with stress (haha, raises my stress though!). For greatest growth, I think the hobby needs to walk that fine line of maintaining high standards yet avoiding elitism and 'cliques.' 

I only wish I could have a fish club here in my rural town, but there isn't the caliber of animal keeping that I seek out here. I can keep hoping....


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I think if stores would take the time to hire better qualified people (at least one) in the area of planted tanks, this would help those starting out in the hobby to be more successful from the beginning. I think this would help people from getting frustrated from being misinformed in the beginning to keep people interested in the hobby and not quitting before they have even begun. This way the hobby would grow more from it being passed on from happy correctly informed people.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I think that we should view and refer to our hobby in a more appropriate way. 

I feel like most of us see it as a "do-it-yourself", "homegrown" type of activity. The emphasis is more on technical details than the aesthetic side of the hobby. 

I suppose that state is a result of us not having a clear understanding how to run a healthy, clean tank. That's a bold statement but most beginners asking how to start a tank usually receive mixed and confusing advice.

Also it's no secret that the majority of the substrate and fertilizer products commercially offered in the US as specific for planted tanks are not great. The ADA products are of much interest but yet to be widely accepted with one of the reasons being their price. That's a good example of how we view our hobby - we expect it to be dirt cheap and in a sense we belittle it ourselves.

Another problem is that aquascaped tanks are virtually unknown in the US. Just yesterday I visited a truly beautiful local plant conservatory. One of the main attractions is a rain forest glass pyramid full of tropical vegetation, "creeks" of water and even some anubias growing on moss covered stones. But the only aquarium in the whole facility was a saltwater reef.

The typical LFS don't help much with the popularization of plants and planted tanks. I have not asked around a lot but from what I know I doubt that most LFS-s will pay for the setup and maintenance of an aquascape. A local LFS owner told me that when he has a lot green lush plants for sale they sell in less than a week, but as soon as he sells 2/3 of them the rest never sell. Presentation seems crucial and that is exactly where we could step in.

To sum up I personally think that the progress of our hobby depends on how we see and refer to it, a sound understanding and advice on how to start and run a tank, local club activities geared toward public display of aquascapes, and LFS promoting plants and planted tanks.

--Nikolay


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

niko said:


> I feel like most of us see it as a "do-it-yourself", "homegrown" type of activity.


Because money is a major factor for 90+% of those in the hobby and because 4 out of 5 commercial products have proven to be ineffective or uneconomical. Do not confuse the fact that some of us DIY because we enjoy it but rather it is out of necessity that DIY arises.



> The emphasis is more on technical details than the aesthetic side of the hobby.


It does seem that way (at least on APC) because frankly we don't know many aspects about the hobby yet: primarily algae control and nutrients. APC provides a fertile atmosphere where people who wish to disperse this aura of mystery can discuss ways to manipulate Mother Nature to do our bidding. To do so, we _have_ to understand the basic biochemistry that governs our hobby. Again, do not confuse the fact that some of us ask and discuss in details the scientific nature of this hobby because we enjoy it, but rather it is out of necessity that we deal with all these technical aspects. Our (at least my) goal is to one day have a comprehensive manual on plant keeping without getting into all the technical jargon. I mean for goodness sake, some of the major breakthroughs in this hobby are the results of scientific inquiries of those on the Aquatic Plant Digest newsgroup. So I really don't understand people's resistance to continued questioning. It's as if they think we enter this hobby just so we can sit around exercising our brain power for some weird ego trip. I find that so incredibly insulting.

But speaking strictly about aquascaping, I think it might be the perceived expections here at APC and a bit of collectoristis due to limited number of tanks.  The forum showcases some really great works that intimidate people (myself included) so we don't post our tanks unless we feel it is at that caliber. Take www.plantedtank.net for example. Members there freely share their tanks even though they range from ugly to average to pretty good ones. Yet here on APC, we see only one two every now and then from established "gurus".



> That's a good example of how we view our hobby - we expect it to be dirt cheap and in a sense we belittle it ourselves.


How exactly does "wanting things to be cheap" belittling? This is precisely the nature of economics: getting the best we can for the least amount of money.


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## travis (Oct 5, 2004)

I've only been experimenting with planted tanks for a little under a year now so I can only provide a relatively short view of the state of the hobby as I see it. In the brief time I've been involved with it I've noticed (or at least it seems like I have) an upswing in the number of people on forums expressing a desire to start their own planted tanks, especially within the last six months. Of course this is completely subjective and I have no data to back up this observation. I think most of this is due to the greater exposure planted tanks are receiving on fish forums recently.

I see two factors that will influence the growth of the hobby here in the U.S. in coming years: greater exposure of planted tanks to the general population (aquarists and non-aquarists alike) and standardization/simplification of the mechanics of keeping a healthy planted tank. The first factor is beginning to roll right now. I'm seeing more and more plants becoming available in LFS's here in Denver. My local LFS even keeps their plants with CO2 so they remain healthy and vibrant. They have even hired an employee who specializes in planted tanks and I applaud them for it. I believe that if more LFS's would create planted display tanks that it would spur growth of the hobby as it would expose many people to the planted tank hobby who probably didn't even know it existed.

The second factor, standardization and simplification of the mechanics of aquatic plant keeping, is still in its infancy compared to what has been done with other branches of the hobby (saltwater for instance). Keeping an algae-free tank can still be difficult for even the best hobbyists at times. This provides a significant barrier to the widespread adoption of planted tanks in the hobby because people are looking for something that won't require a great deal of research and hard work. ADA is probably the closest of any of the producers out there right now to developing a reliable standardized system for planted tank care, but as has been stated, it is still very expensive and availability is limited. It is my belief that keeping a healthy planted tank does not have to be cost-prohibitive nor research intensive, given that a simplified system can be developed and reliable products for use in such a system can be made readily available for the average hobbyist.


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## fishfry (Apr 15, 2004)

I think the hobby has come a long way, and I have given up on most LFS as a source for planted tanks now or in the future. I think as planted tanks become more popular we will see a rise in upscale specialty shops that cater to planted tanks, and not the incorporation of planted tanks into mainstream fishstores. I tend to think that planted tanks are a little more artistic than a reef tank that looks like a brick wall or the freshwater tank with a bubble diver.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

From my aspect it's come a long way since the internet became such a household staple. We don't have a single fish or pet supply store in town, and that tells you how many people share my hobby locally. [smilie=s: 

Back when I first got into fish, we had a beautiful fish store; in fact it was one of the nicest I've seen in the state. Needless to say, they were forced to close because of lack of business, so I had to order everything from catalogs after that.

If you think back even 5 years ago, places like Foster and Smith or Pet Solutions would have never dreamed of carrying things like fish or plants, but now they have a pretty good selection.
Then all of the online stores started popping up, and now it's simply a walk to the computer to find almost anything I'm looking for.

When you start thinking of boards like this one, you start learning many new things, putting the knowledge together from so many experienced people, and you can advance yourself, and make so many less mistakes. I've also made so many valuable friends through boards like this, that it has given my passion for the hobby a breath of fresh air. :smile: 

I too wish some of the magazines would put a little more focus on things other than salt, but like someone else said, that's where the big bucks have always been.
I think they are slowly coming around though, since mags like TFH shows up at all of the ACA conventions, and really puts effort into finding out what we are interested in. 

One thing that really got on my nerves was when a saltwater club in another city had a feature in the paper, they said "anyone can keep an aquarium, but you're only a beginner unless you get into salt"....


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## aquaessentials (Dec 15, 2004)

It's an interesting topic that Art has brought up and here's my professional opinion from this side of the water (i.e. UK)

The planted market has been reasonably steady in the UK for many years now although there is still much confusion as to how we get our plants not only to survive but flourish as well. The whole concept of C02 is perhaps a daunting one for many, not only physically but also financially. Nevertheless, it is a growing market and one that continues to inspire people.

I have always considered the aquatic market to be several years behind the garden market which really took off about 8-10 years ago. Now people are starting to come round to the idea that planted tanks are actually achievable providing the correct advice is given by people who aren't simply interested in selling products. There are still many aquatic outlets which stock plants but actually stock very little in the way of keeping them alive. One outlet close to where I live has weekly deliveries of plants from both Thailand and Tropica. One thing that surprises me is that there is not one C02 set up to be found in their shop and only a few fertilisers - it would seem the emphasis is on selling plants on a regular basis (which make good profit) as opposed to selling fertilisers on a monthly basis (low profit)

When I compare the UK market to the US market, it's difficult to gauge where we are at. I initially thought we were behind the US but from some comments from other members, perhaps the UK is ahead. Either way, there is massive room for growth and gradually shops are becoming aware of this. If only newcomers to the hobby would be less drawn to the beautiful colours of marine fish, if they had fully planted healthy tank to compare it to.


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## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

Well everyone calls a clowfish "Nemo" now.

I have to say that there still needs to be more LFS. You can easily see dog and cat supplies everywhere you go and that place is usually in your own city. To actually find a decent LFS I have to drive 40 miles to San Francisco. There they know. 

I also have to say the US is one of most lagged behind in fishies. My mom tells me that her brother was already playing with fish when he was a boy and this is way back in the 1960s. Of course this was in Hong Kong. Do other countries have a better grasp of fish keeping like Brazil and Hong Kong?


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

The most interesting development I have seen in the last few years is the growth of local plant clubs across this country which stems strictly from the internet community for the most part. People who are past the beginner stage have banned together to share the fruits of their labor. All thanks to the internet, which in general is not the case with aquarium societies. In fact many of the members of local aquarium clubs have no internet savy, and most clubs have very minimal WEB presence and WEB participation.

From my prospective, there are other differences between aquarium clubs and plant clubs. Most aquarium clubs welcome commercial support whole heartedly. In fact they depend on it. I donate plants, goods, or money to over ten different clubs every year. Local aquarium shops are encouraged to join the local club. Manufacturers are solicited for donations. People like Ray Lucas are well known benafactors for clubs all over the country. It is a mutally beneficial, respected relationship. And yet plant clubs do not share in this philosophy. As I understand it is discouraged or out right banned in their charter.

I can see however why there wouldn't be a need for such involvement though. Aquarium clubs have a much larger membership, with overhead, events, and they meet in public places. Plant clubs are usually a handfull of people that meet at someones house. But even the AGA is much less commercialized than most aquarium clubs or organizations. I mean heck, the President of the American Cichlid Association is now doing commercial endorsements in print advertising.

The internet is the driving force for this hobby in this country. For getting information, purchasing or trading plants and finding people with a common interest, but I think many of us forget that our little group of people here around the country and the world is not the whole hobby. Just a big influence.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Like most folks have said, the Internet is proving to be our greatest asset for growth. I think the largest obstacle in our way is purely visual. 99% of the people who are interested in keeping aquaria or who are potential planted tank keepers have never seen a "true" planted aquarium! The best they see are the slip-shod pictures in current domestic print media and pass. Now that pictures of high quality/high standard planted aquaria are available more people are being exposed and are willing to make the financial and time commitment needed needed.

Furthermore, groups like DFWAPC, SFBAAPS, NEAP, GWAPA, and the like are getting involved in their local LFS community to promote planted tanks. 99.999999999% of folks going into LFS these days want colorful and active FISH tanks. Americans on the whole are very animal-centered and don't really care that much about plants or things that don't move much, corals being an exception. By getting involved in LFS and exposing folks to the bright colors and lush beauty of a fully planted aquarium people are beginning to see the alternative to the FW community and salt water aquaria that have been the staple of the business for a long time.

Ray Lucas said something very interesting to me that really hit the head on the nail. To paraphrase: The aquarium hobby in the US is now a blue-collar hobby. Not too many years ago (15-20) one could go to an aquarium club meeting and the majority of folks were highly educated people with an interest in scientific and technical aspects of the hobby, such as botany. They also had greater means to buy stuff.

To make a sweeping generalization based on my personal experience, most of the white collar [average] aquarists [not serious hobbyists] either a) pay for someone to take care of their tanks for them, or b) keep salt water because it's showier and they can afford to keep it. *There ARE exceptions*. On the flip side of this, the high percentage of average FW aquarists don't have the money, or the desire to spend the money, on the lighting and other secondaries necessary to have a successful planted tank. This is based on 10 years of experience in the LFS trade.

I see the hobby growing in the next 5-10 years, but slowly. It will take a major effort on the part of clubs to work with their LFS to convince them that planted tanks and a plant department are potentially profitable and are something that the public wants. It's going to be a hard sell and will take a lot of time. Companies like ADG in particular are our best resource. I know I got a door opened for me after the guy who owns the store I worked at visited Houston and saw the planted displays at ADG. After that he was very open to the idea of a plant department.

The "economy" of the planted tank hobby has to be both trickle down and grassroots at the same time. We have to convince the LFS owners at the top that it's a viable market so that they make available the resources for the general populace to be successful. It's up to us, whether we're a part of a local plant club or just an individual to go to aquarium club meetings and speak on planted tanks. Expose those folks to the possibilities and they'll come around.

Enough of my ranting and preaching,
Phil


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

I really believe that it is a function of creating demand. At such point, the retail/wholesale side will change to meet the demand.

In the US, the demand will be created by the magazines. If TFH, FAMA and AF consistently ran good articles of planted aquariums, more and more demand would be built up for this type of aquarium. However, for them to do this requires that we, the current hobbyists, provide them with the articles. This is not easy.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

One way to get more people started in the planted tank hobby is to not overwhelm them right at the beginning with the fussier, more demanding plants and the complex rules of advanced aquascaping. Don't show them pictures of Aquascaping contest winners and get them to try to set up tanks like that. It is too much too soon, and they are likely to have a big disappointment. Get them started with easy plants like a big Amazon sword, Hygrophila sp., Vallisneria or good old Eigeria densa. Those big Amazon swords, E. amazonicus or E. bleheri, can grow well with only a little mulm in plain gravel and not very much light, and they get big rapidly and overcome most green water or other algae problems. Eigeria densa, by the way, is a good plant to get a planted tank started, and it can be easily trimmed back later to make room for other species. It is an under-appreciated plant. If I planted a bunch of stem segments of Eigeria, and took a picture of the plants growing up from these segments when they were about 4 inches high, I bet I could fool a lot of people into thinking I had a Tonina species! 

Once the beginners have success just growing these easier plants in their tanks, then they may start thinking about doing a little aquascaping. Or, they may stick with their primary interest in fish and continue to use the plants for their demonstrated benefits in fish keeping.


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## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

My father has a tank that I watched him care for growing up. I have wanted one since I can remember yet have only recently gotten my own (4 years). I could have had a fish tank in my room like my little brother did, but I knew that I wouldn't get what I needed to have the plants I wanted. I had no information to the point that I didn't know what or who to ask to find out.

For the realatively poor population that do not have aquarium magazines, live 50 miles from a fish store that is worth shopping at as my father does, there was zilch information about the plants that were behind the fish pictures in books I borrowed from the library. I have met one person so far that even has plants in the algae in his tanks.

Here is I think the barrier to getting the planted idea across. Fish get taken to shows and with some slight effort be displayed in all the glory they posses. Plants? Hah they get stuck at home cause it takes time for them to look their best after being moved. Some how there needs to be more public demonstration of this hobby that is usually hidden away in our homes. 

The whole slant to the hobby I have taken is way beyond my parents understanding of how or why I do something to my tank. Takashi Amano has a good start with his books of photos, yet those tanks seem unobtainable based on the information given. A book with photos of nice tanks that range from low tech to high of various types of tanks with the details of all of what is used and the routine that maintains it would be so usefull just to create the thought to look on the internet. For the average person the internet hasn't changed much about what they know because they don't know what questions to ask.

Without the internet I wouldn't know much at all about planted tanks.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

HeyPK said:


> One way to get more people started in the planted tank hobby is to not overwhelm them right at the beginning with the fussier, more demanding plants and the complex rules of advanced aquascaping. Don't show them pictures of Aquascaping contest winners and get them to try to set up tanks like that. It is too much too soon, and they are likely to have a big disappointment.


I agree. I understand the high-tech science and the aquascaping concepts, and yet I've gone back to the simple plants anyway because it's just much easier for the long term day to day maintenance.

I do however use CO2 injection in my tanks, and I think that is the single most important component that needs to become a standard feature in order to make planted tanks a commodity product. The all-in-one CO2 regulator-solenoid-needle valve-bubble counter from Milwaukee and JBJ is a good first step. Too bad they both misfired in their first product offering.

After developing a hobbyist-friendly CO2 system, I think the hobby would be better served by marrying itself to the hydroponics industry. It's basically the same thing IMO. In the movie MINORITY REPORT there are some shots of the main character's (future) apartment. It has a wall of hydroponic plants incorporated into the design, like it contributes to the well-being of the space. Something like that.

TW


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

HeyPK said:


> One way to get more people started in the planted tank hobby is to not overwhelm them right at the beginning with the fussier, more demanding plants and the complex rules of advanced aquascaping.


Folks, this is why we have a Beginner's Forum here at APC. As in all hobbies, there is a stratification of hobbyists. A good forum needs to provide the tools for a newbie to learn the fundamentals and not get overwhelmed. However, that same forum must also provide the tools for hobbyists as they grow and evolve into different interests within the hobby (i.e., aquascaping, science, etc.).


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

I'm not so sure that what HeyPK was referring to was this forum, but the hobby in general. I guess it also goes with what I mentioned above. To get 'newbies' into the hobby, the hobby needs to reach out to the newbies with something they can handle on a small scale. After they test the water so to speak, many start to reach for the Co2, etc. etc. But I think in general, absolutely in general, greater emphasis on the newbies I think would increase participation in the hobby itself -- purely my own opinion, here. 

Not on this forum, but another -- I feel that I managed to get a lot of folks interested in plants by emphasizing the ease of DIY Co2, providing an easy way of doing it (see my article in DIY), and actually sending plants out to them (free at that time). Once they found that it wasn't that hard, that's when they really started looking into planted tanks.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

In getting started, your first victory is to grow a plant---any kind of plant---successfully with your fish. When you can take trimmings or daughter plantlets to the fish store, then you are ready for some additional plant species. 

When I first got started as a high school freshman I couldn't grow anything. There was no information on how to grow plants other than to start with well washed gravel and let the fish fertilize the plants. With super-hard and alkaline water, that didn't work at all.


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## plantastic (May 23, 2005)

I actually manage a LFS that at one time was exclusively marine. Now, we have a freshwater section that focuses on planted tanks. The plant system is lit with VHO's and has pressurized CO2. The plants are pearling on a daily basis. There are two displays that "inspire" potential customers. Every month more and more customers are interested in planted tanks. We have even had 3 custom installations of high tech planted tanks that the customers are succesfully maintaining themselves without any prior experience!

The fish that we carry are all plant compatible. I have even been stocking some higher end freshwater fish like scarlet red esques pencils, various appistogrammma pairs, killifish pairs, designer bettas, as well as various algae fish and shrimp. Guess what? there is a market for it! I never would have guessed that someone would pay $50 for a betta. But they willingly do.

When customers need trouble shooting, I have the knowledge to explain nutrient needs of various plants, ie. CO2, Nitrate, Potassium, etc.

blah, blah blah..anyway, long story short...

* If you build it, they will come.*


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Plantastic, 

That is nice to hear. Why don't you plug your store? Ah, mention its name that is.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Folks, this is why we have a Beginner's Forum here at APC. As in all hobbies, there is a stratification of hobbyists. A good forum needs to provide the tools for a newbie to learn the fundamentals and not get overwhelmed. However, that same forum must also provide the tools for hobbyists as they grow and evolve into different interests within the hobby (i.e., aquascaping, science, etc.).


That is the biggest challenge for any internet forum, addressing the needs and interests of beginner and intermediate hobbyists, and keeping the interest of advanced hobbyists so they don't go away, feel bored, and are available to answer newbie questions. When the participation/conversation goes too far in either direction you lose half your audience. Just look at the history of APD. In 2000 and 2001, there were huge flame fests where people called others elitists..if I am spelling that right elite tist.... it became a repitious name calling event. Some people got real hot and bothered about it, and thats when people started looking for other forums to go to.

I agree with Art, magazines have the greatest impact outside the internet, and attract new interest to either the retail or the internet. Smart store owners read the mags to see new trends. Consumers read the articles and see the pictures and get the WOW factor. Stores need to be more motivated, more educated, and their customers need to speak up to the stores more. If you visit a store that listens to you, offer to make plant info sheets for the store to hand out. Offer to help them to provide tools to educate and attract customers. Make an effort. Get involved. I called on a dozen aquarium stores in my old stomping ground in the south bay of northern California. They ALL told me they only sell bread and butter plants because NONE of their customers are interested in planted tanks! These stores are surrounded by knowledable advanced plant hobbyists! These people are members here! Let these stores know you exist! Let them know where your interest and skills lay! Tell them, "I am driving from San Jose to Albany to buy my plants because you don't have what I want!"

As far as demographics, in all the time I have been doing this, I have had customers of all ages, all backgrounds and all income levels. Kids, college kids, highly educated people, people with little education, elderly, retired people, blue collar, white collar, snooty people, friendly people, well known people, people who live in obscurity. You name it. I do not see this hobby having any boundries at all. It is fascinating to me. I have talked to many interesting people. I have run into people that are extemely knowledgable about plants, grow all sorts of rare and common plants and have never been on the internet, never been involved in any forum or AGA, and never heard of Tom Barr!  I don't know how they do it or how they learn it, but they do. What is it about this hobby that appeals to so many different types of people, even lawyers?


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

Robert Hudson said:


> In 2000 and 2001, there were huge flame fests where people called others elitists..if I am spelling that right elite tist.... it became a repitious name calling event. Some people got real hot and bothered about it, and thats when people started looking for other forums to go to.


Many people are quite convinced of their own importance in regard to the history and/or current state of aquatic plantkeeping and this makes for a serious disconnect between the so-called n00bs and the "veterans". We see this reflected in the names we see time and time again in the membership and moderatorship of each and every forum out there. There is also a great deal of condescension from these people, and realistically, it can get rather childish on both ends.

What this hobby really needs is accessibility. I've heard rumors of a so-called "elite plant-grower's forum" out there somewhere, and to be honest, I find even the idea of "exclusive" or "invitation only" information sources to be nothing less than a vulgar affront to the very nature of what makes this hobby good to begin with.

But generally, the attitudes of people who partake of these kinds of conflicts speak for themselves. The need to prove oneself with pretense is undoubtedly an aspect of the human condition which we all have to deal with at one point or another.

I'm not going to finish my post on such a sour note, however.

I believe this hobby will continue to grow as long as the aquarist has an ever-expanding palette of plants to choose from. Some of the stuff that has been showing up at auction and here on APC has been truly inspiring. As long as the discoveries and introductions keep on coming, this hobby is going to thrive despite any bad attitudes or naysayers there may be among us.

And that is what keeps me coming back 

(Well, that and the fact that despite several years in the hobby, I still can't grow plants worth a damn!)


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> In getting started, your first victory is to grow a plant---any kind of plant---successfully with your fish


How true this was, for me, at least. When I saw my vals actually grow when I hooked up that first bottle of diy co2, I thought I was the king of planted tanks! Looking back on that now, I realize how far I have come.

Here in the Gainesville area, there is only one lfs remaining which isn't one of the national chains. The national chains that carry anything other than hornwort and amazons are rare, here at least. That one lfs has a large planted tank set up as display. It's low tech, with low light plants, but it is impressive, when you take into account the paucity of anything else out there in this area. Even in this store, the knowledge level is very, very varied. I was there today, and a salesperson is telling some guy about the fact that there are a lot of phosphates in our water (bs), and how he needs to remove them for the health of his fish and plants. I have asked them several times if they would be interested in any plant clippings, and always been told no.

I think if more lfs's went to the trouble of setting up one high tech display planted tank that they would surely generate more interest in the hobby. How many folks spend their weekends going to Wally World or Homerland to buy gardening things and plants?

For me, it's been the web that opened up my eyes and my mind to what could actually be done. Heck, I think if the lfs's would disseminate info on web sites that people could go to, they would generate more interest.

I still amaze myself everytime I look at my tanks and realize, 'hey, there's no algae to speak of here!' When I think back of what I considered a success in the past: a semi-healthy sprig of hornwort, and a quickly shrinking amazon sword.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

To build any hobby, you need to build from the ground up, help folks, not just here, in person, at the LFS, if they are not receptive, do not be harsh on them.

Our local clubs help bring new folks in to the hobby. Web sites can help share info from many areas.

Simply helping folks solve their issues will be greatly appreciated and help to build the hobby's success/growth.

Being involved with other folks helps increase the hobby.
Local clubs are great ways to do this.

Show others what you have learned.
That is the pay back to those that have helped you.

The newbie forum is a great way to do that on the net.
You learn from helping others as well.

I field basic simple newbie questions often, sometimes they are my own questions even(Is my CO2 really that high or low?) 
I hear the same things over and over and repost many of the same post over and over. I've done it for awhile, but still like helping folks.

No substitute for one on one contact with a grower in person. It's up to us to promote our hobby/passion in our own way. Take advantage of the opportunity to help solve a plant issue for a new person.

Pics, web sites, books, mags etc, any exposure helps.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

3rd annual Plant Fest July 8-14th 2005!
[email protected] Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

To have this hobby move on we need to provide clean definitive answers to the problems of the planted tank, instead of that it seems that lots of time is spend on internal disputes and antagonisms (my way is better), I think we should focus on the common grounds and the understanding of the processes, by the way all of us just want to grow healthy plants. One thing that I really don't like as-well is all this great growers aquascapers (the gurus) that don't even bother to share their approach on growing the tanks but just sneak in, saw us their great tanks give us a brief description and retrieve with dignity like some semi-gods (try to check the total posts of some of the gurus and you will understand what I mean). Come guys participate we need you, enough WOW's for you it is time to help . I think this hobby can be really simple, it seems that lately some breakthroughs on the growing of plants have been achieved, but most of us still have not realised it. I want to say a big thanks to people like Tom Barr, Edward, Miller and lots of others new and old that have spend countless hours keeping notes, researching and helping people, we are in great debt to you guys. 
As for the lfs here in greece they are a big mess as-well but their market share is small and the chains are pushing them out of the game, so we need to be understanding, they just try to make a buck and planted tank guys are but a trickle, most good money are made out of the guy that buys blindly face it.


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## plantastic (May 23, 2005)

The biggest catalyst for our customers has been the displays. I would say that over 90% of our freshwater as well as marine customers have never even been exposed to a planted tank. They had no idea how dynamic a freshwater tank could be.

Some other hurdles I have experienced has been aquiring plants that have been grown submerged, consistent availability, Diversity of selection as well as the ever increasing competition with internet suppliers.

However, I continue to trod ahead with the realization that the market that we are targeting is but a small niche in the aquarium keeping world as well as the fact that I am treading new ground. When I started my adventures with plants, It was a brain melting experience because there was no local resource for what I wanted to do.

I actually prefer the plants that our customers trade in. They are tended to with the personal care that only an individual with a true passion can give.

Anyway, the common theme to most of these posts seems to be that if we want the proliferation of our corner of the hobby, then we have to be passionate and involved. "We" meaning "Me" and "You", not "her" or "him".

Art- I have not plugged "my" store yet for two reasons.

1. I did not want to be perceived as a retailer who uses this forum as an avenue for me to get free advertising, I was turned on to it by one of my customers and I find it enlightening and fun.

2. "Our" website have emberassingly outdated pictures that showcase the planted section of the store. This issue is being addressed and hopefully within the next couple of weeks I can invite everyone to take a look!


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## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

Freeman: I don't know if I am one of those you refer to, but I try and help when I can. I feel most of the time like I don't really have the answers most are looking for being so much of a "feel" and observation guy. Sometimes I hold back because I don't want to be perceived as some know-it-all (because I certainly am not) or don't want to stir up controversy- which mention of Amano or ADA products- for some odd reason- has a way of doing (we have got to get over that too!). 
The science side is not my strong point. I hate to feel like an opportunist just promoting ADA, but I try to keep it honest and honestly, the substrate is really awesome. All other things being equal, my tanks are doing infinitely better with it, especially at start-up, which is where many get off on the wrong foot/have problems that take a long time to remedy which = frustration. The point in relation to this thread is: I think some simple core products that are readily accessible that make the ever-precarious "start-up" phase of a planted tank easier will encourage and inspire many a newbie. It's easy to get discouraged when you first have problems and next find the solution is both contested and often complicated to figure out. Of course, there will probably always be an element of this dealing with aquariums- of any type for that matter. But we can strive for some sense of "standardization" - for lack of a better term. 
I don't consider myself a Guru. It's more humor than anything to me to even have the option of "Guru" for an experience level selection. I should probably change that soon.


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## omega (Apr 1, 2004)

> don't want to stir up controversy- which mention of Amano or ADA products- for some odd reason- has a way of doing (we have got to get over that too!).


Jeff. This is not a fair statement to make. ADA products got people mad because when you guys first carried them, the impression that was put out was that _everything_ they have is worth the price and there are no equals or substitutes. And when people expressed their doubts (ok, they did it with no tact :mrgreen: ), the response is something to the effect of "Oh it's people's money and they can spend it however they want." which is not at all their point. THAT is where the controversy and anger are. It's a lot of money and people want to know that their investments are well worth it. "Trying everything" is a luxury a lot of us just don't have.



jsenske said:


> I feel most of the time like I don't really have the answers most are looking for being so much of a "feel" and observation guy. Sometimes I hold back because I don't want to be perceived as some know-it-all (because I certainly am not)


If you can describe what your "feel" and "observations" are then it would help a lot of us. Let the technical eggheads (I say that as an affectionate term :mrgreen: ) translate that into something useful for the rest of us. I know you're busy and all but please share. I wouldn't think you're a know-it-all. :razz: I know I appreciate all the hardcore science discussions even though I don't understand most of it but I know they are going towards providing "clean definitive answers to the problems of the planted tank" like Freeman says. I have the ADA substrate and sure it helps me in the startup. But what do I do when the problems happen afterwards? I rather not learn by trial and error. You know cuz I'm poor and tend to pull my hair out when I'm frustrated. And you know how precious hair is to the men folk. :mrgreen:

Yeah some newbies may get scared by all science stuff but you know, they gotta realize that these eggheads are the ones that find answers to your problems. If they don't do what they do so as to not scare newbies, then so what if more people get into the hobby? They'll only quit once they run into problems and nobody would know how to solve them. I wish I know something about the hobby to contribute but I'm a leecher. I leech off of other people's talents. :axe:

Ok, I'll step off the podium now. Please welcome our musical guest for the night: Bruce Springsteen. [smilie=l:


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## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

All points well taken indeed. I pledge to do more to help folks and will only "speak when spoken to" regarding ADA products. 

In the meantime, I personally think planted tanks are the next reef tank in terms of popularity. It's all going to happen, it just can't seem to happen quickly enough for all of us who are already so passionate about it and who are sitting here waiting for the rest of the industry/new folks to catch on! It's just going to take a little more time. I'll be working hard to do my part.


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## C_perugiae (Feb 26, 2004)

Thought I'd chime in here because this topic is really interesting; I'm usually a lurker, so you all probably don't know me, except Error.

I'm one of the evil LFS goons.  Whew, that felt good to finally get that off my chest... I wanted to add my two cents because I have a lot of experience with retail and plants, especially with the setups and such. The store I work for asked me to start ordering plants a year ago when the dude who was doing it got fired and I was COMPLETELY lost. Of course, I had kept plants at home, maintained two of the display tanks in the store (nanocubes) and could help customers pretty well with their setups, but actually having to order, to learn what people really wanted, was a learning experience.

The store I work for runs on a very different philosophy from most of the retail joints I've been to in that my boss is passionate about his customers having the best experience possible with their setups. We actually keep the plants for sale in the tanks with the fish (it's a pain, but that's what the boss likes) so that people can envision their fish swimming around in a planted tank. We also have two larger tanks, a 92 corner and 65 gallon, set up with CO2 and PC lighting to help people realize how easy "high tech" actually is. I usually sell at least two or three of those types of setups every month or so... and I work with 14 other people who are all doing the same thing. 

The store also quarantines and treats all new arrivals in bare tanks off the sales floor, packs fish in oxygen, offers free water testing and autopsies with a vet on staff (with a microscope), and tests the sales tanks' water quality on a weekly basis. Clearly, this isn't gonna happen at every place, but I just thought I'd mention the degree to which my boss is interested in getting people the best fishkeeping experience they can find. 

Even with all that, I still get a ton of resistance from folks who thinks plants are going to "give off" algae, will infect their fish with diseases, and cause a mess because they're hard to take care of. It takes a lot of dedication and passion for the hobby to convince these people that innocent Amazon sword will do nothing of the sort if they follow my advice. 

I believe that the advancement of the hobby lies in a place away from the world where everyone knows just the right way to trim their Taiwan moss so it looks like the stuff in the coffee table book (I'm not stepping on Amano here), but instead, people can learn to take care of their tanks in such a way that all its inhabitants are healthy and the environment is stimulating and satisfying to the owner. It shouldn't matter if the guy down the road has 6 Rubin swords for a background and his driftwood is perfectly centered in the tank. If the angels are spawning, the java fern keeps doubling its size, and he quit using that bottle of Algae Fix weeks ago because he figured out how to feed his plants, he's a successful hobbyist. We all should be so lucky as to fall in love with our little underwater worlds.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Perugiae,

More lfs's should be like yours! I'm impressed. I hope the folks in the Lansing area realize the dedication of your store.

Let me throw out a question which might be a little controversial. Do you think that some lfs's simply don't think it in their best interest to show people how to successfully keep a planted tank? Let's face it, once you know what you're doing you're throwing away/re-selling/composting/giving away (pick your choice) a ton of plants on a regular basis. Plants which, if you didn't know what you were doing, you would be buying from the lfs to replace the ones you killed or allowed algae to grow all over. Just a thought...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Reef and plant tanks are often what new folks want the most.

There is a strong market for pre done brand name stuff, you get everything all in one place.

From a LFS, or Mainteance business, or a newbie, this makes sense.

Saves time and time and expertise = money.
Business owners do not have the time or interest to do all this DIY.

They have customers that want results yesterday.
Waiting for all these things to come in from different places makes life tougher.

There is room for both methods, but there are trade offs in each.
I think many assume I'm against ADA at times, far from it.

If I had a business, and made things, it would likely be similar to ADA.
But I'm not, I make plenty of $ other ways that I enjoy much more.

So I think Jeff's point and goal as well as ADA's is pretty solid on this.
There is a trade off here.

The other issues is consumer marketing, SeaChem does it different, ADA has another approach and DIY's have their own.

But...........they all would like to see more planted tanks in the world.

More planted tanks!

That's *all* our goals.............

I like to be aware of that and from there, point out the trade offs.......
Even without the techy stuff, Jeff has a point as does ADA, pictures/examples sell tanks quite well also.................

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

I've often wondered why in my town there are at least a dozen specialty hydroponics stores and none of them (I've called and stopped by) seem informed or interested in aquarium plants. It seems like a natural to me that there are synergies between the technologies, fertilization strategies, equipment and hobbysit interest. I'm wating until the day I walk into one of these places and they have a beautiful planted tank on display and have people who know how to bridge the gap between planted tanks and hydroponics. Seems like a natural to me.


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

OK, this is my dream. I want to open a high-end planted aquarium store at the Spectrum in Irvine, CA. It would specialize in ADA products, ADA knock-offs (local cabinetmakers and acrylic rimless tank makers), plants and hard to find fish (direct people to on-line stores for regular products, those stores do it cheaper). The spectrum is the downtown of Orange County. I would put one 180 Amano style setup in the front window, carpet plant layout with rocks with 100 green neon tetras schooling around. With the volume of people that pass by the shop and such an incredible tank sitting at the store window, I don't know how people would not get sucked in.

I would be happy in life if it just turned out to be a labor of love and I never made much money. What scares me is failing because my gut tells me that there are not enough people willing to invest the time and money into the hobby. In addition, I don't want people investing money on equipment only to eventually fail.

I've made the first step by applying to go back to business school to get my MBA. I am going to get my concentration in e-commerce with the hopes of having a fully functional website by graduation. My first shot at a business will be selling the glass intake and outlet pipes (which I hope to manufactured in Mexico), custom cabinets, light pendant hangers and aquascaping materials. I plan to buy pallets of rocks and driftwood, take picture of individual pieces for standard aquarium sizes and sell them online. That’s how bad the planted tank bug has affected me, I love it.

When I first started out, the thing that I always wanted was setups that I could copy. I've tried to do that buy keeping logs of my setups, so that people can replicate the process to learn. Its just slow going cause I get about one setup a year.

Greg


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

So do maintenance. Then you get paided to set up tanks.

ADA, ADG, Oliver Knott etc...........
You can also do smaller scaled projects and not be so hung up about redoign a tank.

Once you get it right, redo it.

Retail, stores have a tough go, it's certainly possible to do it, but once you get involved, I doubt you'll do much aquascaping in the business like you think.



regards, 
Tom Barr


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## C_perugiae (Feb 26, 2004)

Tom's right. You won't be doing much 'scaping if you open a retail store. Maintenance is where you'd be doing that... if you really want to go into the business. I'm sure Jeff will agree with me that aquarium maintenance is tough. I deal with people on a regular basis who gaze at their 36" tall tank with 2 vho bulbs, sigh, and ask why their tank doesn't look like the ones in the store or the folks who "forget" to show up at their house to let you in to do water changes. I also work with people who love it a whole lot and work full time in maintenance; I only have a few accounts for the store and if I had any more, I'd probably hang myself. It really depends on who you are.

And to answer that earlier question, yes, people do really appreciate the level of commitment that the store has to the hobby. We regularly see people from Traverse City, Detroit, or Chicago. It helps that my coworkers and I (even though the pay isn't great) are sticking with our jobs for long enough to build relationships with individuals. I have about a dozen regulars who only talk to me when they come in; most of the other folks have a guest list about that long, as well.

Thought I'd chime in about the idea that successful planted tanks actually kill business. I suppose in some aspects it might, but people don't take kindly to plants dying in their tanks because of the mess it causes. If their first crop doesn't do well, it's REALLY hard to get them to buy any more. If anything, a successful plant geek is way more useful; plants like val and java moss are so much better coming from a person's home than in the mail. I'd much rather give them some store credit than pay my wholesaler to send me stuff that has a hard time acclimating after living in the box for so long. (Not to step on my wholesaler's toes because I think he does a GREAT job... thanks, Gene!) 

Anyway, the point I want to drive home is that a successful hobbyist will make a much greater financial contribution to the shop than one of those dudes who goes home with a setup, kills everything, and sells it all in a garage sale a few weeks later. Unfortunately, many stores lack the funds, the danio catchers who know what they're doing, and the time to actually get this to work.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey C. I've found it's worth the extra 20.00 to have them send it for Thursday shipment rather than Friday. The plants come out better, even with the one day difference. I totally agree with the sentiment about taking local plants for store credit. It's the best way I've found of getting local growers involved in the store and building a long term relationship with them. It's helped me build some great relationships with folks over the years.


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## C_perugiae (Feb 26, 2004)

We do get the plants in on Thursdays, which helps, but I just don't think some of them like the shift in water chemistry. It also has a lot to do with the fact that the plants are put in tanks with fish for sale, under bulbs that are probably a bit over the year mark for replacement. 

Most of the stuff does great, though, but the few species that don't just get replaced by customers. I have to agree, it's a good way of developing a relationship with the regulars and sometimes I get stuff in that I can't order... like the Eusteralis stellata that came in today.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> Thought I'd chime in about the idea that successful planted tanks actually kill business. I suppose in some aspects it might, but people don't take kindly to plants dying in their tanks because of the mess it causes. If their first crop doesn't do well, it's REALLY hard to get them to buy any more. If anything, a successful plant geek is way more useful; plants like val and java moss are so much better coming from a person's home than in the mail. I'd much rather give them some store credit than pay my wholesaler to send me stuff that has a hard time acclimating after living in the box for so long. (Not to step on my wholesaler's toes because I think he does a GREAT job... thanks, Gene!)


Gene in New york? There are many shops that are quite successfull with the exotic plants that people talk about in this forum. Plants that are not generally available thru Florida Aquatic and their distributors. These shops attract the "plant geeks" or inspire new ones, usually from having really nice planted display tanks and Amano books for people to drool over. What first got me hooked in the hobby was a 300 gallon plant display tank in a shop. It was incredible looking. The problem is there are not enough of these shops who are willing to set up a nice display tank featuring plants, and to make the effort to find those customers. Not to mention many shops do not have the knowledge to take care of a planted display tank. That is why there are now dozens of plant sellers on the internet. We wouldn't be in business if there were no customers interested.

I have a store in Washington who after selling nothing but the common swords and stems for years finally decided he wanted to take it up a notch. With my help he is now pushing imported plants and showing his customers how they can create something like Amano's work. It is apparently working because he is now one of my largest customers.


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## BillD (Jun 10, 2005)

As a member of a fish club with close to 100 members, and an active AHAP program, I think that there is growing interest in planted tanks as more and easier to grow plants become available. Here in Canada we have Tropica plants available. They have a huge catalogue of available plants. To me the problem with them is they are all grown emersed, which means they must be acclimitized to being grown submerged. This sometimes doesn't progress as well as one would hope. Tropica plants are also very expensive. The price of plants in fish club auctions has gone up significantly in recent years, reflecting the amount of interest in plants. The best plant propogater in our club (Grand Master Horticulturist), uses the most archaic methods imagineable, with very good success. The point here is that there are many ways to approach aquatic gardening, that will lead to success. It does not require high tech, expensive equipment to achieve satisfactory results. There is no question that the high tech approach produces astoundin results, but not everyone wants to spend the time or money to do it that way. That needs to be taken into account, as we promote aquatic plants in the hobby. Plant speakers are important to promoting aquatic gardening at the club level, which tends to spread, even among non club aquarists. I still recall a talk by a Jim Roninson, called "sex with scissors" that was essenyially about how easy plants were to propogate. Jim is an engaging speaker, which also helps.
I believe the hobby is growing, and plants are becoming a bigger part of it as knowledge increases, but as a group we need to be broad minded about it. Sorry about the rambling. As the theme of this year's CAOAC convention expressed,"the hobby is alive in 2005".


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

One thing that bothers me is the tendency toward collectoritis where it's just assumed that anyone in the hobby will just naturally gravitate toward wanting to keep plants that are both difficult to find and difficult to keep. I know it's a natural human competitiveness thing, but I think the hobby would be better served if we gave more kudos to tanks that do well with the easy storebought plants. 

There's a personal bias there, because that's what I've done with my tanks, and I'm much happier with them. Just a few easy species that reliably grow without any special fuss. 2 WPG, CO2 and generic ferts dosed according to the Fertilator. I can ignore it for days and it still keeps going.

TW


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I kinda think the online board and plant-related sites draw people in. Our local chain store and one of the lps has some decent plants... quite a few varieties that don't require high light and CO2.

Given that tanks usually don't come with enough lighting to do all but the low light plants, and typical substrates have few nutrients, it's no wonder that people give it a try and then give up cuz their plants die. I mean... would you stick your terrestrial plants in plain gravel, stick them in a dimly lit room!?!

Plus the pet store people usually don't have a clue about what you need for happy plants. Plus increasing lighting can be a pricey thing if you're not into DIY. The high tech methods are complicated and expensive... gotta dose with this and that.. gotta add CO2, monitor pH, etc, etc, etc.

I've found Diane Walstad's low tech approach to be quite appealing. I don't have to dink around with CO2 or water ferts. So far, I have three tanks set up that way (topsoil substrate, gravel overlayer, heavily planted, water movement and mechanical filtration only, ~2 watts per gallon, next to south facing windows, infrequent partial water changes). The plants are very happy as are the tropical fish (Swords, endlers, a killi, a clown pleco and a betta boy), shrimp and snails. Tho the goldies didn't do well in the 125, so I had to move them back to their 55. I also have plants potted in topsoil in the goldie tank along with stem plants rubberbanded to rocks where the UGF is to hide the tubes, etc. none are the well manicured show tanks, I see on line, but I'm happy with them cuz they're a good ecosystem for my aquatic beasties.

Betty


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

TWood said:


> One thing that bothers me is the tendency toward collectoritis where it's just assumed that anyone in the hobby will just naturally gravitate toward wanting to keep plants that are both difficult to find and difficult to keep. I know it's a natural human competitiveness thing, but I think the hobby would be better served if we gave more kudos to tanks that do well with the easy storebought plants.
> 
> There's a personal bias there, because that's what I've done with my tanks, and I'm much happier with them. Just a few easy species that reliably grow without any special fuss. 2 WPG, CO2 and generic ferts dosed according to the Fertilator. I can ignore it for days and it still keeps going.
> 
> TW


Many old timers tend to go this way.
It's a learning process for new folks, same deal with the fish also.
Hopefully they will get over the disease(we tend to all get it) sooner.
But the disease produces an intense rancor that runs deep and send them scurrying for new weeds. So they are often heard looking and comparing new weeds on the web and new things do draw the eye.

After trying "new" plants for many years, they are all pretty much the same as far how to grow.

They do learn alot in pruning and growth rates and scaping during this time though.

Regards
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> But the disease produces an intense rancor that runs deep and send them scurrying for new weeds. So they are often heard looking and comparing new weeds on the web and new things do draw the eye.
> 
> After trying "new" plants for many years, they are all pretty much the same as far how to grow.
> 
> They do learn alot in pruning and growth rates and scaping during this time though.


Yeah, but how many cases have you seen where someone decided they just HAD to grow a Glosso carpet because that's supposedly the mark of excellence? And then they get in big trouble with the high-wattage lighting needed and all the issues that comes with it. I guess what's fun to some is just a PITA to others.

TW


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## bensaf (Jun 20, 2005)

Well I'm new here but I thought I'd throw in my own 2c. from aslightly different perspective.

I live and work in Asia, Indonesia to be exact. Some of things I've seen here echo a few of things that Jeff and Tom mentioned. That planted tanks will eventually overtake the reef set up in terms of poularity and that if you show folks what a planted tank can look like like they'll come running (or at least they'll walk a bit quicker).

I fell into this hobby here in Indonesia, never kept a fish before and never grew anything other then nose hair  

There are a lot of aquatic markets here. Because of space constraints here in Asia pets like dogs and cats aren't terribly popular, bird and fish would be the typical pets. As a result finding fish and plants was an incredibly easy and cheap task. Live plants were a hundred times more easy to find then plastic or silk so I really had no other choice then to plant the tank. Of course it all went bad which led to the research which led to the obession  

Anyway while livestock was easy to find, good equipment and ferts was not so easy. Finally I managed to find a great store (wouldn't you know it right under my nose about a block from my mother in law's house) which specialized in equipment and tank maintenance. They had it all, light fittings, co2 set ups , chillers, ferts - you name it they have it , and all at great prices. Now this store has 2 huge tanks, on opposite walls, about 800 gals each. One is a planted set up , the other a reef set up. Both beautifully done. Walk into that shop and the customers will have their nose's pressed to one tank and the other will be ignored. Which one gets all the attention ? Well you may, or may not, be surprised to learn it's the planted  I spoke to the owner and he told me before he had the display tanks all anybody wanted was a reef set up, that's pretty much all he could sell. After the display tanks were set up that completely changed, everybody want's planted and he hardly gets any reef requests anymore. Even without my own bias I can understand this. Seeing 2 identical sized displays of reef and planted side by side, you really see the appeal. The planted set up just has a "darkness" or depth, a sense of mystery that the reef totally lacks.

So I guess the moral of the story is , yes build it and they will come, and yes theoratically the planted tank should outstrip the reef set up in terms of popularity or "must have".

But there is a problem I do see. That's the beginners perception of a planted tank. People seem to inherently know that a reef set up requires a lot of equipment and is more expensive then freshwater . They shy away from it for that reason.Or at least would not attempt one without doing the homework and having the suitable equipment. Unfortunately a lot see the planted tank has something that can be cheated or skimped on. "Nah I don't need another bulb I'll just throw in some of that plant food instead". I'm not saying a beginner needs to make big investments on lights etc before starting. But some groundwork does need to be done. Otherwise, as already said, with the failure come the frustration and people quitting before they even really get started. 

I guess the challenge is trying to get the message across to people new to the hobby without bombarding them with science and jargon and scaring them away. I always try to keep it very simple with new people and build it up slowly. I enjoy it, yes you do end up repeating the same basics over and over, but it's worthwhile. One of these newbies is going to be the next Amano or Oliver Knott etc. Unfortunately I've discovered it's probably not going to be me


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## Andrew-amano-wannabe (Jun 29, 2005)

Well from the UK prospective yes there are two of us lol, id say things look alot better over here than you atlantic cousins are experiencing over there, and i too always thought you guys were more advanced than us, but perhaps that is in the reef aquarium. I reside in North wales, which in us terms is like living in nevada desert quite far from a metropolis culture with all of it services, however just 15 miles from me is a specialised CO2 planted aquarium shop. I think we are 2-4 years behind our european cousins, esp germany, but because we live in their shadow as it were we have access to their products, it is expensive going through an extra midlle man, but the rewards are worth it. Quality of plants are exceptional compared to that of 5 years ago, esp form tropica(www.tropica.com) its all about the fish shop keeper, if he is up beat enthusisatic and looking for the best products on the markets, and has a good set up display tank then you can be shown how to do it, etc. i think service is key i have learned more from my dealer than any book or online articles. Having said that it would be nice to have products available between the lesser brands and the amano range which is absolutley disgustingle overpriced, i mean 800euros for a CO2 tank whos he kidding, did he get the exchange rate wrong with the yen? ok soap box away. I am very impressed you guys in the states have set up a plant exchange or shop system, similar to the private reef system for maine setups, i wonder if something like this could be set up in the uk, would be especially useful for the rarer breeds. Great site guys.


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## gnatster (Mar 6, 2004)

Back in the early days of Reef Keeping on the Internet there was a lot of myth-information floating about on the few forums that were available at the time. There were a few books, mostly by Albert Theil and there was a smattering of information coming out of Europe by pioneers like Knop. A LFS that carried corals was hard to find and if they had them they were in small section in the back. Live rock mostly came from Fla or you found some guy in the back of magazine that would send the really exotic Pacific based rocks. A lot of hardware was of poor quality at best and the good stuff was very expensive, even more then todays prices in comparison for what you received. Most people built their own hardware or adapted it from other areas. A few more books came on the market by the likes of Moe, Sprung and Delbeek, and Nilsen and Fossa. Most of these were weighty tomes with big price tags to boot. Suddenly as small publisher, Microcosm, put out a few titles, one of the being Tullock's Natural Reef Aquariums. It was affordable at around $30 instead of the $75-$100 most of the other books cost and best of it were the contents. Of all the books I had read up to this time, and believe me it was every hing I could find in English not matter how esoteric, this was the first book that had a recipe for success. 5 tanks from 20-230 gallons were shown with a list of everything you needed to set them up. Cookbook Reef keeping we called it at the LFS I worked for at the time. We even marketed setups using the exact same recipes Tullock laid out, and included the book. We setup one of the 20 gal systems in the shop and showed folks how easy it was to care for. We sold a lot of 20-75 gal reef setups. Added new Invert systems to house the corals that were now selling better and expanded the fish holding capacity. Now all of it is not attributable to one book, but it helped move a new lfs from barely making it to being one of the premiere lfs in a city with it's share of lfs's. 

My point is the Planted Realm is ripe for such a book. Something that is an easy read, does not beat the reader over the head with a lot of technical stuff, offers easily replicable systems of various sizes and price points with obtainable products and most importantly is available at price where the casual aquarist will pick it up. once something like that is on the market and lfs's whats possible with goods they can order from their wholesalers. They can then package an all inclusive system, and get more folks on the read to planted aquaria bliss.


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