# 1/2 gallon water change = dead shrimp and half dead fish.. HELP!



## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't understand what is going on!

I use seachem prime (new bottle.. just bought it yesterday) and novaqua +

It started with a normal water change on monday.. fish started gasping at the surface that night... nitrite spiked.. water turned super cloudy.

my other tank that got a water change as well is normal

I did a water change per day to help bring the nitrites down and it just keeps getting worse.

Everything was going better except for slightly high nitrites still so I did a 1/2 gallon water change... I use seachem prime and novaqua +.... and the instant the new water went in all the fish started gasping at the surface and one of my shrimps instantly died.

I tested the tap water and it has 0 ammonia and nitrites... KH is 2 and ph is 7.2.

*cries*


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## Afyounie (Aug 10, 2007)

Is this the same tank as the one that you posted about before? I wonder if something died, and upset the balance of things. In smaller tanks the balance is harder to keep, but they are so much fun to scape. I hope that you are able to correct things. If I were you, I would transfer the fish to a different tank till this tank gets back under control.


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

yup same tank. 

I think it's something in the tap water... the instant the water change water hit the tank everything in it's path died or almost died... and yes, it was treated with prime before it was added in.

My guess is whatever is in the tap water now killed the biofilter on monday's regular water change.. thats when the fish started gasping originally and soon after the nitrites spiked and the water turned cloudy.

They progressively get better... but then I stupidly do another water change and they instantly get worse.

Everyone had been fine all night and most of today and I decided to do a small water change, about 15%, because the nitrite was still up around .1, and the new water = instant death.

I'm going to a local store and picking up a 5 gallon jug of RO water and some stuff to build the GH and KH back up.. then I'm going to slowly mix that in.

If that doesn't help then I guess I'm going to have to tear it down and start over. I have no place to keep my fish and shrimps though.... but I'm thinking if I get to that point everything would have died anyways.


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## mikenas102 (Feb 8, 2006)

Sounds to me like something coming out of the tap or maybe something contaminated the bucket you use for water changes.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Would a detergent in the water cause this effect? I can't see it causing cloudiness of the water, but it would certainly affect the fish. So, a residue of detergent in the bucket would be a possibility.


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

I'm not sure what would have contaminated the bucket... it's stored in a closet that is unused and I'm the only person that ever accesses it... but I guess anything is possible?

I got two 5 gallon jugs of RO water, some seachem equilibrium and alkaline buffer. I mixed it to have a GH of 3 or 4, a KH of 4 and the PH is 7.4. It's very close to what the tap is... slightly softer maybe, but close.

I'm doing 1/2 gallon water changes with it every 30 minutes or so and I'm going to do that until I have at least 50 to 75% changed and then I'll see what it does over the next few days.

5 gallons of R/O is only 2 bucks here and should last me 3 weeks of water changes.

Whatever the cause is... it's affecting the plants too... the leaves are starting to turn clear... I added some water lettuce from another tank though because I read it's excellent at absorbing nitrites.

*keeps fingers crossed*

Should I remove all the plants etc and look for bodies? or would that just upset things worse? 

Let it stabilize first?


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

If you are doing the water changes with a small gravel vac then I would sort of probe under the leaves and behind the plants each time to see it something does come out. It is pretty important to get the dead critters out of the tank.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I believe that the fish and shrimp probably suffocated from the loss of oxygen and/or there might of been a problem from the release of free ammonia and free chlorine.

How much Prime and Kordon Novaqua Plus did you use, Danielle?

Why would you use both products to dechlor/dechloramine?

Prime removes oxygen from the water during it's dechlor/dechloramine reaction. From: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/seachem/44178-how-long-does-prime-stay-tank.html


Seachem said:


> Prime can bind ammonia for 48 hours. There is definitely no need to dose that much Prime to the water. _Water conditioners in general are reducing agents and can when grossly overdose reduce the oxygen content in the water_.


You should only add two drops per gallon or 5 mL per 50 gallons.

I'm don't know how Kordon NovAqua Plus works. It could be a reducing agent and remove oxygen too. The standard dose for NovAqua+: Use 2 drops per gallon, or 1 teaspoon (approximately 5 mL) per 10 gallons of water.

From: http://www.novalek.com/kordon/novaqua+/index.htm
_"When tap water sources contain chloramines, residual ammonia will remain after treating with NovAqua+. Use Kordon AmQuel+ or AmQuel to remove the toxic ammonia."_


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

I've always used the novaqua+ and never had issues with it even with a gross overdose. I could pour half a bottle in with no ill effects to fish.

The issue started before I got the prime. I picked it up in case the novaqua had gone bad or expired. I dosed the same amount of novaqua+ that I always use on my water changes... and have for the past 8 months with no issues.

on the small water change where the shrimp died none of the other animals improved until after I added additional water conditioner.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Have you tried doing a water change with Prime only? I've never had a problem with Prime.

I have had a problem with Amquel+ when it first came out. During my first water change with it, my fish were gasping at the surface and some died before I could finish a quick water change with another dechlor product. I threw that Amquel+ bottle away and I've been using Prime ever since.


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

from novaqua+ website as well

"CAUTIONS No cautions are required in the use of this product. NovAqua+ does not reach toxic levels with regular use or upon accidental or purposeful overdose"

I've used the Kordon conditioners for years and years and never had a single issue before.

Right now I'm too scared to even try using tap water or Prime and I think I'll just use RO water from now on. I got 2.5 to 3 gallons changed in 1/2 gallon at a time over a period of 3 hours and everyone is much improved. I'll probably do 1/2 a gallon change per day or every other day with it till things stabilize.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

So sorry Danielle! Your tank is one of my favorites! This sounds just like what happened when my son used my bucket to wash his car with simple green. My leaves turned clear and fish began dieing like mad. Obviously something is in the water. I hope your RO water will make the difference. Dilute, dilute, dilute! You just need water that you know is safe. Somewhere a contaminate got it. (Could there have been some sort of cleaner left on the spigot that ran into the water?) Whether it was from your city water or a bad additive, you'll probably never know. Just to be safe I would not use those bottles again, but return them and ask for new ones. I don't know about Amquel+ but I swear by Prime. It's all I ever use.

I'm glad things are getting better!


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## mikenas102 (Feb 8, 2006)

Tex Gal said:


> Could there have been some sort of cleaner left on the spigot that ran into the water?


I've almost done that plenty of times. I fill buckets in the kitchen sink and there's been a few times where I almost didn't notice some soap stuck on the bottom side of the spigot.


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

I agree w/ the issue brought up by Left C. While Prime is a great product, it is very concentrated; and it will reduce oxygen when overdosed. In larger tanks there is a greater margin for error. However in very small tanks it doesn't take much at all.

I learned this the hard way! Even though I use a child medicine dropper to accurately measure the dose for my regular size tanks (75g; 46g; 29g...20s,....:-$); the amounts needed for a nano are way too small. I use a flip-top bottle and was dosing three drops to the gallon. I lost two sets of Golden WCMMs in my 5g hex before I made the connection. Now I dose only one drop per gallon for nanos and small H20 changes.

Perhaps this is not what caused your problem this time. However it is something to be aware of and careful about when using Prime. I use Prime exclusively on all my tanks, incl., two w/ shrimp, & three tanks currently w/ new Apistogramma fry:mrgreen:. I never worry that it won't do the job and feel the need to mix my "medicines". Again, a great product and being so concentrated a good bargain to boot!


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

You know..... now that you mention simple green....

The bucket I empty the dirty water into was used as a simple green bucket prior. I wonder if I inadvertently put the siphon in it while doing a water change.

I just don't know.

Thank you everyone for the warnings about prime. I'll just use a couple of drops now... if I use it again. Everyone looks ok now... I just have cloudy water.



Tex Gal said:


> So sorry Danielle! Your tank is one of my favorites! This sounds just like what happened when my son used my bucket to wash his car with simple green. My leaves turned clear and fish began dieing like mad. Obviously something is in the water. I hope your RO water will make the difference. Dilute, dilute, dilute! You just need water that you know is safe. Somewhere a contaminate got it. (Could there have been some sort of cleaner left on the spigot that ran into the water?) Whether it was from your city water or a bad additive, you'll probably never know. Just to be safe I would not use those bottles again, but return them and ask for new ones. I don't know about Amquel+ but I swear by Prime. It's all I ever use.
> 
> I'm glad things are getting better!


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

I got behind the tank with a mirror and searched best I could and saw no dead bodies... just a bunch of live shrimp.

My CPDs are swimming about in the open and picking at stuff for food.

Now what to do about my plants? They were lush and beautiful and now the leaves of my rotala are getting clear spots. Can they be saved? Will they come back?

The water is very very cloudy still. Ammonia tested 0 and nitrites .2 this morning. 

Should I do a small water change... less than 20%... every day or will this keep the biological filter from building back up?


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## longhornxtreme (Feb 20, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your problems Danielle... I hope for the best resolution possible.

I'm a dedicated Prime fan... I've accidentally put in 10ml during a 50% water change on a 29G and I didn't have any gasping problems. However, I've never mixed prime with any other chemicals...


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Danielle said:


> ... The water is very very cloudy still. Ammonia tested 0 and nitrites .2 this morning.
> 
> Should I do a small water change... less than 20%... every day or will this keep the biological filter from building back up?


Hi Danielle

I've very sorry about all the bad things that happened.

The following links are threads about nitrite poisioning since you have a 0.2 ppm Nitrite level now. You probably know about this already, but I thought that I should share this with you and others.

In the following thread, Kate St. John and others mention some very good information about nitrite poising and treating with aquarium salt: http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=87

Here's some more info about nitrite poisioning that may be helpful too: http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8901


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

just did a 20% water change. Everyone looks ok... they have good color and no rapid breathing. There are shrimps out everywhere cleaning.

I have some biro-spira on the way.. will be here tomorrow. That should help the filter rebuild itself quickly.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

With your plants I think you should just get rid of any leaves that are rotting. It there is just a hole here or there and the leaf still "works" then leave it. Wait until you have enough growth to get rid of any bottoms of stems. You don't want to reduce your plant mass any more than you have to since you need them to take up the nitrites. 

Also be careful of the biro-spira. I got a bad batch and lost a lot of fish. Probably fine, just make sure you don't overdose. I don't know why my fish died with mine. It was API brand. I will only use Seachem from now on. It was the only thing I had added to my tank so it had to be the issue. I was already testing for ammonia and had none. I had cleaned a filter and added new sponges so had added some of the bacteria. 

So glad to hear things are returning to normal. Hang in there!


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

This is the stuff I'm getting










It has to be kept refrigerated so the bacteria don't die. It's being overnighted with a cold pack. I've heard nothing but great things about it. I'm using the seachem bacteria's until it gets here though.

I just counted my fish and all of them are counted for! As far as I know I only lost two shrimp. The one that died when I put the water in and one amano that jumped out of the tank overnight 

I turned the CO2 back on at a much reduced rate.... 22 bubbles per minute... and I'm doing a half dose of P, K and macros every other day so the plants don't stress out and die more. I want them to be able to absorb those nitrites!! I have the airstone come on at night now too. No one showed any signs of heavy stress. Colors are good and they ate ravenously. I'm still doing a small 1/2 gallon water change with fresh R/O water twice a day though.

I think now it's just a matter of the filter building bacteria back up.



Tex Gal said:


> With your plants I think you should just get rid of any leaves that are rotting. It there is just a hole here or there and the leaf still "works" then leave it. Wait until you have enough growth to get rid of any bottoms of stems. You don't want to reduce your plant mass any more than you have to since you need them to take up the nitrites.
> 
> Also be careful of the biro-spira. I got a bad batch and lost a lot of fish. Probably fine, just make sure you don't overdose. I don't know why my fish died with mine. It was API brand. I will only use Seachem from now on. It was the only thing I had added to my tank so it had to be the issue. I was already testing for ammonia and had none. I had cleaned a filter and added new sponges so had added some of the bacteria.
> 
> So glad to hear things are returning to normal. Hang in there!


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

Woke up this morning and water was clear and nitrites were at 0

yay!


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

A note on my 2nd tank. I've noticed that while the beta doesn't show much signs of stress like the CPDs did.. he has been laying in his plant up near the top of the water and otherwise not moving (like he's asleep). His plants are starting to turn clear and die just like the plants in the main tank have done.

He has not had a water change since the original one monday (the one that started everything in the big tank) and no prime has been used in his tank.

So going off this I think it has to be something in the water. The beta just isn't as sensitive as the other fish and shrimps, but the plants are telling the tale.

I'm going to swap him over to the RO water today.

oh and I noticed I'm about to have total crypt meltdown


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Are you reconstituting the RO water? You're gonna need the minerals for your fish and plants. Just wondering.

So glad all is well. Does make me wonder if it was the simple green. It's exactly what happened to me. I think that stuff is so potent it doesn't take much residue.


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

Tex Gal,

yes  I got some seachem equilibrium and alkaline buffer and mixed the water close to what the plants and fish were used to.

Some of the plants are already starting to come back, although my cyrpts are all melting  The only good thing out of this... whatever it was killed all my algae and cynobacteria too lol.


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## Danielle (Jan 26, 2008)

I have an update 

Since swapping to R/O water only and dosing with bio-spira, it didn't take long for the tank to stabilize, but almost all my plants died as well and I started to get green water. My steady schedule of ferts and CO2 had obviously been upset and with the plants dying algae was quickly trying to take over.

Long story short I purchased some very healthy plants from a forum member (thanks!!) and replaced all the dead stuff (all my rotala and ludwigia). My crypts are still a bit bare because they completely melted away, but they are slowly starting to come back. Now with all the healthy plants I've started back on my regular dosing schedule and CO2. Everything is growing and pearling and the water is crystal clear. All the shrimps and fish are fat and happy.

I only lost two shrimps and the plants from this ordeal.

Here are a couple of bad pictures.



















happy CPDs!










Thank you everone who helped!


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

So glad this story ends well. Only 2 shrimp and your plants is probably not too bad. The other way around would have been horrid!  Your new plants look great! Now your off and running again!


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

I just read this thread tonight, and I could have wrote it myself. I did a water change on my tank, a 25 heavily planted, moderately stocked and also on my son's 10 heavily planted, overstocked (it is a guppy tank, enough said). After about an hour after the wc, I walked in the room and most of the fish were at the very top with a few at the bottom. They weren't gasping for air, but looked more like they had been anesthesized. The story is just the same as your's, Danielle, wcs didn't help, water got cloudy, but the 25 wasn't affected at all. By morning I had lost almost all of the fish, but the shrimp didn't seem to be affected. His albino pleco committed suicide by jumping out of the back of the tank (I didn't have a plastic filler on the glass cover). In the end, I lost all but one of his guppies, the albino pleco, about 5 cherry shrimp, and l amano shrimp. The plants look horrible and the crypts have all melted. I did the wc as I always have and didn't use any different chemicals. I age water in 1 gallon milk jugs, the same ones I have always used. In my case I know there was not any contamination on anything. 

Now for what I found interesting. Because there were a lot of baby guppies (now dead and on the bottom), I got out the syphon hose again to do another wc and when sucking up the gravel, I would get big air bubbles going up the syphon hose. I poked my finger into the substrate (eco-complete) in different areas, and I would again get a huge bubble rise up to the surface. I was wondering if the substrate became toxic underneath and when I did the wc, I let some of the deadly gas escape. I remember reading about this in one of the aquarium magazines and can't remember what kind of gas it was, but I do remember it saying it smelled bad like rotten eggs I believe. I did not notice any smell in my case though. I also failed to test the water so I don't know if I had a nitrite spike also or not.

Again I know my equipment or containers weren't contaminated.
I put the same water in the 25 with no problems so I have ruled out something in the water. 
The tank was heavily stocked, I was late on the wc, and the pleco was a poop machine, so I think this is what the root of mine was. Any thoughts?
Brian


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## JustOneMore21 (Mar 19, 2007)

This may not be your issue at present, Danielle, but I know you have quite a few fish and shrimp in your 5.5g. I would say its overstocked, but others may not. That could be reasoning for some of the issues, but I know you keep up on maintenance from your threads.

But, I think having a larger water volume for your fish load would probably end some of your difficulties.....just maybe.


Your CPDs would enjoy more swimming space!


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