# And I have angel eggs!!



## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I transported them to their new tank last night. Went out to run erands, came back, and they spawned on my large anubius barteri leaf! :grin: They are taking turns fanning their eggs. Unfortunatly I didn't catch who layed them.  So It's still a mystery. I'm going to make a pop bottle shrimp hatchery later so I can start making shrimp in a few days. Should I keep the lights off? I heard eggs are light sensitive. 

What about fungus? I have "jungle labs- fungus eliminator" is this any good at all ? Should I get methyl blue or should I let nature take its course and see? I'm going to do another water change tonight as well.

I can't believe it was that fast. Any advise would be great. I havent any expierience with breeding. Though I have done research.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

Methyl blue is usually recommended, some people say to take them out of the tank entirely and keep them in a smaller tank or container that you can keep as sterile as possible by doing a water change once or twice a day. At this point I'd leave them in with the parents, since you probably don't have something set up already. So give the tank a dose of methyl blue as a precaution- although honestly, I've never won the fungus battle- and keep doing water changes. Also, once an egg turns solid white it's been infected with fungus and it's dead, the best thing you can do is remove it so it doesn't spread to the others. If you lose this battle you can take heart in knowing that your angels will likely spawn again. Mine used to do it about once a month, almost like clockwork for a while. After losing a few battles against the fungus and deciding that I wouldn't really know what to do with dozens of little angelfish I gave up trying to save the eggs and eventually added tankmates. The angelfish still spawned periodically, only to have their eggs eaten by all the tetras. We'd say, "Oh look, the angels are putting on a buffet for everyone, how thoughtful."
Also, as for gender, the females are usually a little plumper in the abdomen. Hope this all helps, Good luck!


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Here two sites that should help you... http://websvirginia.com/angels/
http://members.aol.com/AngelBook/


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks for the help and advise. I put the angels in my waterchange bucket. So I could pick off the white eggs with tweezers, without getting bitten. Out of 200 eggs (I'm guesstimating) 26 were white. I also lost a couple of good eggs when they were too close to another egg and I knocked them off. It's really cool watching them take turns fanning the eggs. Boy were they ever mad when I took them away from their eggs. But they weren't taking care of the bad eggs, so I figured I'd help them along. I don't want to spoil the basket with a few rotten apples, so to speak. I don't however have any methyle blue  But I am doing nightly water changes. I can't get to the fish store before it closes unfortunatly. I start work before they open and am done after they close (I comute and work long hours)


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

The eggs are moving! it is day 4 is this normal? And also a few more white eggs appeared after removing all of them. I hope more don't secumb.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't know, your eggs have lasted much longer than mine ever did. I'm excited for you, keep us posted!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If you have free swimming fry you're past the point where fungus is going to be a problem. No reason to add methylene blue now -- I'm not sure how much the plants would like it.

I had the most success with removing the eggs to a bare 10 gallon aquarium at 84 degrees F. I'd carefully siphon the bottom once a day to remove debris & dead fish. I'd add enough methylene blue to make it hard to see the back of the tank. The downside was that everything in the house turned blue. It took about 1,000,000 water changes to get back to normal appearing water. If you're getting by without it, so much the better. On good spawnings I'd get about 90% of the eggs to maturity, often more than 200 fish! The average was about 120, sometimes as few as 20 or 30.

The fry are called wigglers at this point. They're attached by a thread to the place where they were laid. They'll do this for a couple of days and eventually fall to the bottom. They'll disappear into the gravel and you'll probably think they're dead. About a day or two after this they'll become free swimming and will school quite tightly if they're in a big tank. Once they're swimming they need to eat right away. This means you need to get the brine eggs going about 48 hours before. There are lots of good places that will tell you how to go about this on the web.

I used to put a small lamp next to the tank. The brine would congregate there and make it easier for the fry to figure out where lunch was. A couple of weeks into it they'll be big enough to eat finely crushed flake and finely chopped frozen brine. Transition slowly so they'll figure out what to eat.

Good luck. Raising angels is incredibly fun. Don't forget to post some pics! I can't wait to try again. My goal is a heavily planted tank in the 40-50 gallon range where the parents can raise them à la naturel.

Also, don't put them back in with the parents until they're way too big to eat. Big angels love small angels -- for lunch, that is.........


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## DaFishMan (Dec 4, 2005)

Congrats on the eggs T-bone 

I hope you get some fry. (I'm hoping for a hatch too, have had 3 spawnings) What strain of angels do you have ?


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I have a striped angel that looks like my avitar (without the sunglasses and teeth :lol and a gold. Unfortunatly I can't remember which scientific name they are. I would post pictures but my camera wont take nice closeups. (hoping for a new digicam for christmas) IMHO the striped one has very nice finnage probably nicer then the gold. But not by much. (I was really hoping my black veiltail would be the suitor) Back when I bought them I wasn't thinking of breeding....just a nice fish assortment. If I had to go back I would have chosen more wisely. I hope they are a nice brood, and not ugly mutts.


On a side note I went to look to check progress...and I thought the eggs were gone. But they just moved them. Whew =D> Theres hope yet for them.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

T-Bone said:


> I have a striped angel that looks like my avitar (without the sunglasses and teeth :lol and a gold. Unfortunatly I can't remember which scientific name they are. I would post pictures but my camera wont take nice closeups. (hoping for a new digicam for christmas) IMHO the striped one has very nice finnage probably nicer then the gold. But not by much. (I was really hoping my black veiltail would be the suitor) Back when I bought them I wasn't thinking of breeding....just a nice fish assortment. If I had to go back I would have chosen more wisely. I hope they are a nice brood, and not ugly mutts.
> 
> On a side note I went to look to check progress...and I thought the eggs were gone. But they just moved them. Whew =D> Theres hope yet for them.


sounds like fun... if you have altums...wow...
methylene blue is very harsh on plants and filter. seriously not recommended. soft leaved ones will melt almost immediately.

in bare tank, MB is med of choice espcially for fungus prevention on eggs. this is widely used in discus breeding as well...HTH. congrats and good luck.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I'm a little too far in now, to worry about methyle blue. What eggs would have turned white, have done so now. 


I know how much breeders really endorse bare bottom tanks. But I'm sorry, I think they are butt friggin ugly. I know they are easier water changes and are easier to maintain water quality. But I'd rather maintain water quality then look at an ugly bare bottom tank, with no plants. You guys go ahead, I am certainy not a professional breeder. Regular water changes is good I hope.

Taking the white eggs out is kind of a pain. Butt not that much. Maybe I am an idiot. Butt I would rather let nature take I'ts course and see what happens. Then take action later, to correct what unnature has bred out of them. IMVHO



Not that anyone said I was I'm just saying.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

This is a very old picture they have very different markings. ie the Gold has much more color. They both are way biggerr and there fins are much better. I will post better pics, when I get a camera that doesn't suck. For now here is a baby pic of them.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

T-Bone said:


> I'm a little too far in now, to worry about methyle blue. What eggs would have turned white, have done so now.
> 
> I know how much breeders really endorse bare bottom tanks. But I'm sorry, I think they are butt friggin ugly. I know they are easier water changes and are easier to maintain water quality. But I'd rather maintain water quality then look at an ugly bare bottom tank, with no plants. You guys go ahead, I am certainy not a professional breeder. Regular water changes is good I hope.
> IMVHO


methylene blue stains...so your rocks/gravel and d/wood and silicone and most plastic things FWIW that's why a bare tank when you use MB.

it's always good have natural setting. i hate bare tanks too. erm... everybody in this forum included i think.

water changes do stimulate them to spawn...

white eggs could mean the eggs were not fertilized, did it turn with before it became fungused or opposite...so the question is did the male do it's job?...the 'ironing' as we call it over here...

look out for the next dance...in a week or so...good luck...

hopefully an angelfish breeder will say something...my minute knowledge on angels already spent here...


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I would say I lost less then 10% of the eggs to turning white. I am just doing daily water changes and that seems to be doing the trick. They are all from what I can tel,l alive. So I must be doing something right. As far as i could tell, they just turned white. I could not notice any fungus growing on them other then just being white.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I have free swimmers now! only some they are just starting to swim. The angels are doing their best to wrangle the fry back into place. But when more become swimmers it'll be impossible. I do however have a fish fry trap, that I forgot I had when I was given a tank a while back, it came with it. I will herd the fry I can into it so I can feed them easier. Can I leave them in the container? Will they kill each other in such close quarters? There are hundreds of fry btw.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The fry won't hurt each other. The parents still might though. It sounds like you're actually going to have a chance at the parents raising them correctly. If they decide to eat the young they usually do it early on.

Hope you have your food source all figured out. They'll be hungry right away.
Good luck.


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## Hawaiian (Aug 17, 2005)

Your Baby angels will take newly hatched babybrine shrimp at 5 days after free swimming. Start off with a small amount for the first couple of days then increase as they become accustomed to eating bbs. Be aware though about keeping the water clean during tis time. I use a rigid airline tubing to siphon leftovers from the bottom so the fry dont get sucked up. Just some things I do in my hatchery.

HTH, Ike


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I watched my angels last night till 4am. Watching as the swimmers broke free. The fry this smorning are all swimming. There is litterally hundreds. The angels are still putting them in their mouths butt, spitting them back out where they want them. I am watching them very closely. If they do start eating the fry, I will be sure to rescue them. 

I started the shrimp last night as soon as I saw I was going to have swimmers. Now I'm worried I didnt do my shrimp right. I'm pretty sure I did. The water is body temperature warm. The airation is going like a pot of boiling water. I salted the conditioned water with kocher salt. I'm still worried, after all this I don't want my fish to die of starvation.

Ps I need to bug my G/F's mom for her good digi cam. It is just facinating to see.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

With my first go at angel breeding I ended up with 200 angels that I sold at the LFS. I was 14. I was absolutely clueless about everything. I came to realize a few things.

1. There are a lot of angels for sale in pet stores for a reason. If you do a few things right they aren't all that hard to breed.
2. If a stupid and inexperienced person (me) could do it, you can too. I didn't have the internet or even a friend who had raised guppies.
3. Reproduction is amazingly resilient. Ask half the people you went to high school with .
4. Sometimes despite your best efforts it all goes to pot.
5. Enjoy it.

I'm impressed the parents are acting like parents instead of hungry predators. Good for you. Keep us informed. Keep disturbances down to a minimum to give them the best chance.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Ok heres some pics its the best I can do










And


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## aquariumnewbie (Dec 15, 2005)

Any chance you are going to sell them i need a Angel from a good home preferably a baby i am starting up a 55 gallon tank Christmas present what do you think of the top fin or the all glass aquarium kits are they anygood. Does anyone know where to get a 55 gallon stand $50 or under ​


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Awesome pics! I quite surprised the parents are doing so well. It MUST be the planted tank.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I'm going to sell them to various stores. I can sell private. But I'm not going to ship any. You'd have to live in or near Vancouver B.C.I might be willing to travel but not very far. Surrey or Richmond or surrounding areas, other then that you'd have to come and get them. 

You can make your own stand if you are crafty enough. But with a 55 or bigger I would probably not skimp unless you are pretty good at wood working. Your best chance is to look in the classifieds for used tanks. Or online like ebay or buysell.

Good luck.

And Yes I would have to agree It MUST be the planted tank


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Aq.newbie: I've always liked all-glass aquariums. Be careful with the kits. Its often better to piece together what you need (tank, cover, good heater) and forget what you don't (cheap thermometer, cheap heater, cheap light setup, cheap airpump, etc., etc., etc.)


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

Wow! Congratulations!! I'm so glad it's all working out for you... if I lived near Vancouver I'd totally buy some from you... and mind you, this is after swearing I'd never keep Angels again, but it's always so sweet to have a fish from infancy, and baby angels are soooo freakin' cute!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

So T-bone, how they doing? I'm living vicariously through you. It's been a long time since I've raised angels. Keep us informed.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

They are doing pretty well. Concidering it's hard to feed so many fry. Ive lost a few af the fry. I suppose they are the runts. I'm doing the best I can though, and I kind of expected to lose some. I can't wait till I can wean them off of BBS, it's pretty easy once you get a system and get it down. But what a pain in the arse. It is still fun to watch, and is facinating too. The parents have divided the fish into 2 schools and are raising their own schools. Too bad I couldnt take video. Every time a fry wanders off the parents zoom over, gobble them up, then spit them out in their respective schools.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, you always loose a few. Once they start to get stripes you can rest a little easier. As they say in New England, "Wicked Awesome!"


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

So T-bone, how they doing?


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

They're much bigger now, and are 'starting' to take some shape.They don't have dorsal fins yet. But I can see some with coloration. I think most of them will be striped. Hopefully soon they will accept food other then BBS. I think I have about 30. I estimate because I told them to sit still but they wont listen. Kids these days.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

An update if anyone is interested. They are looking like angelfish now. I'd say they are half the size of a dime now. I can see I'm going to have some with interesting colorations. I mostly have striped ones. But some of the striped ones are interesting. I have a couple in there with black anal fins, black ventral fins, but white dorsal fins. Wich is wierd because both parents have white fins exept for the striped wich has the black tips on his tailfin. It's hard to tell because they are still small and most are still semi transperant. But I think I may have some gold colorations, with stripes (I could be wrong though) But some definatly lack the silver color, but do have stripes. Some lack any color or stripes, wich would be a full blushing I guess. Some still haven't developed at all they haven't grown at all. Maybe they aren't getting enough food? or are they runts? is this normal?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Cool!

Every time I've raised angels I've had maybe 10% that grow twice as fast as the others and 10% that stay small for the longest time. The rest of them are kind of average. There isn't much you can do about it. Usually the smallest ones kind of fade away over time.

How many total do you have now?


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

It's really hard to count but I am guessing 25-30. Kind of sad considering I had hundreds to start with. But hopefully my sucess rate will go up over time. I'm thinking about putting a tank divider into my 55 gallon. To see if the parents will give it another go.


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## DaFishMan (Dec 4, 2005)

That's wicked they hatched, Congrats !
I bet you're very proud of your fry batch, and so you should be 

The sooner the fry are separated from the parents, the sooner they will spawn again I think. You appear to have white pearlscale and silver angels, which are both P. scalare. Must be cool seeing dark ones with a white topfin, kinda like the gremlin 'Stripe'.

Best of luck with the fry.


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