# any ideas?



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

howdy! i got this plant a while back and it was very little. i thought this was echinodorus sp (the small narrow leaf chainswords) but now this plant is nearing ten inches or so and well..idk. only one i have..
ideas?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Looks like it's probably _E. grisebachii_, which now includes _E. bleherae, E. amazonicus_ and _E. parviflorus_ (all synonyms).

All of the chain swords have been reclassified as _Helanthium_.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Looks like the unknown plants I collected from the wild in the drainage. My friend called it "Vallisneria" but I told him they're not Vallisneria. He thought they're Vallisneria because they propagate just like Vallisneria with runners. I have a feeling that I got the same plants as yours. Maybe I should post the photo too when I am free. I actually kept them in 3 tanks. In one tank, it grows quite tall but does not multiply. In another tank they multiply but they're shorter/smaller.

Have you seen any runner, by the way?


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

Thanks Cavan, sword of some sort is about as good as it gets for me. also, i knew about the change in names for the ones that spread as runners, though i forgot to say so when posting..doh!

Totziens, please post pics! 
i have another one that i suspect to be the same in another tank, much shorter-no runners yet..we shall see


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Alright, I will post the photos here this weekend if you don't mind. I think we have the same plants. I need to move around some plants and clean up the mess as they're blocking the view in the tanks now.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Here are the photos I promise. Sorry, they are a bit blur as I was too lazy to dig out the camera, so I use my mobile to capture them instead.

Short ones in 55 gallon tank:








Long one in 15 gallon tank:


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

yup yup, thats what my plant looked like small and similar to now it being big.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

ok...great...we have a common question then - what plant is this? Hahaha...

I got mine in a drainage that a friend brought me to look for plants a few months ago. There was clear running water in the drainage. I am pretty sure that the habitat will be destroyed anytime when they decide to develop that area. It's a normal practice when human sees $$$$.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

@totziens: That looks to me like a chain sword from the Helanthium bolivianum (= Echinodorus bolivianus) group. Maybe a plant that's often labeled Echinodorus magdalenensis, E. quadricostatus var. magdalenensis, E. xinguensis etc.
For comparison: http://www.flowgrow.de/pflanzen-all...fur-vordergrund-geeignet-t8562-15.html#p80560

If chain sword (I'm actually sure), it's not native to Asia and was escaped from culture into the drainage.

AFAIK, the only plant native to Asia and next similar to Helanthium (chain swords, naturally occurring in the Americas) is Ranalisma rostratum (mostly misspelled Ranalisma rostrata), synonym Echinodorus ridleyi.
http://www.guitarfish.org/2008/01/29/ranalisma-rostrata-in-a-different-light
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranalisma

[edit]
ddavila's plant (E. grisebachii in the broader sense) is a true Echinodorus, not a chain sword (Helanthium). But confusingly the name Echinodorus grisebachii is used for decades in the hobby and trade for a chain sword from the Helanthium bolivianum group as well, different from totziens' plant, bigger.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks, Miremonster. 

Unfortunately, I am confused by so many types of plants that they all look the same to me 

It's funny how that foreign plant could end up in the middle of nowhere. That area was a forest but in recent years they have developed that area rapidly. I am not too surprised about foreign plants co-exist here though as people discard their extra plants all the time. We have issue about foreign fishes invading the water too especially flowerhorn and pleco.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

totziens said:


> It's funny how that foreign plant could end up in the middle of nowhere. That area was a forest but in recent years they have developed that area rapidly. I am not too surprised about foreign plants co-exist here though as people discard their extra plants all the time. We have issue about foreign fishes invading the water too especially flowerhorn and pleco.


 I could imagine that a lot of alien aquatic plant species is spreading in tropical Asia, not only from aquarium dumping but also from nurseries. It's surely important to watch and document that (photos, herbarium specimens, notes) and to send that to botanists; often enough neophytes have become a threat for indigenous flora & fauna in many parts of the world.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes, exactly..."aliens" are everywhere. Sometimes it's a blessing too for hobbyists. Unfortunately most of the hobbyists are just like me - many of us cannot even recognise an aquatic plant which is growing on land or we do not know where the aquatic plants "treasure" is hidden.

I found all these wild plants because of a friend who pointed out to me that those are aquatic plants and brought me to various areas not to far from my place to hunt for them. I don't even know how to return to the same locations to collect them again (I should have marked with GPS but I only armed myself with some plastic bags and a small net). Sometimes, there's no way for you to return to the location because a drainage/stream may become a road, a house or even a reserved land for cemetery months later. Yes, a reserved forest was turned into reserved cemetery ground in recent years (we lost a habitat of crypts and the natives lost their livelihood which depended on the forest despite of some protests (the government does not listen to the people unfortunately)


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Such neophytes have chances to establish especially in disturbed areas, the Helanthium in the cleared area does fit that image. Also in Europe alien plants are rather found in disturbed places, but it's astonishing to read that e.g. a seemingly harmless plant, Alliaria petiolata from Eurasia, is massively invading native, undisturbed forests in North America, totally changing them. Surely the risk of invasions of undisturbed, native areas by non-native plants is much higher in the tropics.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

p.s.


totziens said:


> Yes, a reserved forest was turned into reserved cemetery ground in recent years (we lost a habitat of crypts and the natives lost their livelihood which depended on the forest despite of some protests (the government does not listen to the people unfortunately)


 Maybe it's possible to draw international attention to such cases via environmental organizations like that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rettet_den_Regenwald


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## asukawashere (Mar 11, 2009)

miremonster said:


> Such neophytes have chances to establish especially in disturbed areas, the Helanthium in the cleared area does fit that image. Also in Europe alien plants are rather found in disturbed places, but it's astonishing to read that e.g. a seemingly harmless plant, Alliaria petiolata from Eurasia, is massively invading native, undisturbed forests in North America, totally changing them. Surely the risk of invasions of undisturbed, native areas by non-native plants is much higher in the tropics.


A. petiolata does not survive to reproduce on my property, where it has been found to be tasty when wilted with bacon grease and spinach, etc. Despite this, I've yet to convince the neighbors that munching it to extirpation (or just munching it in general) is a good idea, so we always end up with more... it is indeed quite persistent, though.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

asukawashere said:


> ... where it has been found to be tasty when wilted with bacon grease and spinach, etc. ....


I munch the Alliaria petiolata as well, but not that way; sounds jummy, must try that next spring... It's written that also the seeds are used as spice in France. 
Remarkable that a lot of critters live on that weed in Europe, in contrast to America. Here in Germany it's frequent (nutrient-rich, shaded places as hedge borders, waysides, disturbed forests etc.), but far from infestations.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks, miremonster. Unfortunately that place has been completely destroyed and turned into a cemetery site now. I last visited that area last year when a friend and I thought we could still explore the place for crypts. Unfortunately, most part of the stream had been covered up with soil. I bet the stream is completely gone by now.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

If there's still the devastated stream or a ditch is dug out on the cemetery, perhaps crypts could recover, because there are examples of few cryptocoryne species in cultivated areas such as rubber plantations: 
http://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Gallery/gri/gri.html


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