# making an iron fertilizer solution.



## BLaZe

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i have some pharmacy tablets that are :

Ferrous Fumerate 300mg
(equivalent to 100 mg of elemental iron)

Vitamin C : 200Mg 

folic acid : 0.5Mg 

so can i use these as a source of iron fertilizer ?

chemical formula of ferrous fumerate : C4H2FeO4.

so how could i make an iron solution out of these tablets and how would the iron disolve in water :S ? i mean its iron doesnt it need a different solvent to disolve into ?


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## Laith

I'll let a chemist give a better answer but:

- You may need some sort of chelate to keep the iron in solution and available to the plants.

- Not sure of the affect of Vitamin C on plants/fish.

By the way, Greg Watson can probably ship CSM+B to you in Lebanon. This is a powder that contains chelated Iron and trace elements as well. I know he ships to Europe so he could probably ship to Lebanon (unless you have very strict import laws). His website is www.gregwatson.com.

The only thing he cannot ship internationally is KNO3.


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## BLaZe

i remeber reading something about citric acid and vitamin C used as a chelator in some post here , the guy used ferrous sulfate and it didnt work,
well about that CSM+B is it just a powder that id have to dilute in some water for use of it it some sort of substrate ?
i found someone to ship me seachem flourish trace 500ML for 7$ and not sure about shiping but its 10$+ i dunno if that CSM+B stuff is cheaper .


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## HeyPK

You need a chelating agent for your iron that lasts for a while. I am not sure, but I think that iron citrate and iron fumerate aren't really chelated iron. The citrate and fumerate only serve as anions, just like sulfate is an anion (negatively charged ion) in iron sulfate. A chelator is an organic molecule that holds on to the iron atom and prevents it from precipitating out in insoluble compounds. Plants are able to strip the iron from the chelating agent. Fumerate and citrate will be quickly broken down by bacteria in the aquarium. 

Vitamin C and folic acid are vitamins that we need, but not plants. Plants make their own vitamins and don't need any external sources. They, also, will be quickly broken down in the aquarium. 

My favorite chelator is DPTA (diethylenetriamine pentaacetic acid). Iron DPTA keeps floating plants green for months in my tanks.


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## Bert H

> My favorite chelator is DPTA (diethylenetriamine pentaacetic acid). Iron DPTA keeps floating plants green for months in my tanks.


Paul, if I may ask a few questions regarding this iron chelate, where do you get this iron chelate product? Is it specifically for aquatic purposes or a diy mix? Have you any experience regarding its tendency to precipitate with higher kh/gh waters? Do you think a switch from a gluconate product, such as Flourish iron to this type would result in a wendtii meltdown?

With all the interesting discussions regarding iron going on lately, specifically here, http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=9608 really has made me realize that some of the problems I have been having with some plants may just be due to iron. I too have hard water and it seems to be a little harder getting those levels up with this type of water.


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## BLaZe

ok so the only way my plants can use this iron is if its chelated , well what about all this talk about iron glutonate , is it chelated? i think seachem uses it in that form .


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## Laith

Yes, the Seachem Flourish and Flourish Iron (for extra iron) products are chelated using gluconate.

The CSM+B is a powder that you make a solution out of and then dose the tank with it. Send an email to Greg and ask him how much shipping would cost.

If you can get Seachem then that is a very good iron/trace mix as well. The CSM+B is cheaper but doesn't have as many elements in it as the Seachem Flourish and Flourish Fe does. Personally I prefer the Flourish and Flourish Fe product.


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## BLaZe

well can i make a solution out of iron gluconate tablets then ?


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## Laith

BLaZe said:


> well can i make a solution out of iron gluconate tablets then ?


Sorry, the answer to that will have to come from a more chemist type than me  !

At first glance, why not?


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## HeyPK

> Paul, if I may ask a few questions regarding this iron chelate, where do you get this iron chelate product? Is it specifically for aquatic purposes or a diy mix? Have you any experience regarding its tendency to precipitate with higher kh/gh waters? Do you think a switch from a gluconate product, such as Flourish iron to this type would result in a wendtii meltdown?


I got it at a local garden store under the name, "Sprint 330". It is made by CIBA-geigy. It is said to be better for neutral to alkaline soils than iron EDTA. I have never seen any tendency to precipitate. Although it does seem to last in the aquarium for a very long time, I know the DPTA chelator is biodegradable because when I mix up a solution, mold can grow in it if I do not keep it sterile. I know that light causes iron EDTA to precipitate out of solution, and I don't think that iron DPTA is sensitive to light. I bought some iron gluconate solution at a garden store a long time ago, and I noticed a precipitate as soon as I put some in my tank. I have never used it since. I doubt that switching from iron gluconate to iron DPTA would cause a meltdown in wendtii, but you never know with crypts and meltdowns. Iron DPTA has never caused any problems with my crypts.


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## Bert H

Thanks for the info, Paul. I might see if I can find some and try it out.


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## titan97

Citrate is a chelator. In my line of work (metal finishing, chrome, etc) many people use citric acid (hydrogen citrate, if you will) in their cleaners and degreasers to bind up (aka chelate) any loose metallic ions. This preserves the usefullness and life of a metal cleaner. Not to mention it does wonders on brass parts that contain lead (which are otherwise very troublesome to plate). However, it is a pain when it comes to waste treatment because it is such a strong chelator. I know that EDTA is stronger, which is why nobody uses EDTA in cleaners. I think it is comparible to gluconate as far as chelating strength of iron. If I recall, both gluconate and citrate have one or two available ligand-binding sites. EDTA has four. I'm not sure about DPTA. From the name, I'd say it has 5 sites (pentaacetic acid should promote 5 sites, at least at high pH).

I did a little search on google, and found this on page 5:

A significant problem with nutrient solutions is maintaining the availability of iron. When supplied as an inorganic salt such as FeSO4 or Fe(NO3)2, iron can precipitate out of solution as iron hydroxide. If phosphate salts are present, insoluble iron phosphate will also form. Precipitation of the iron out of solution makes it physically unavailable to the plant, unless iron salts are added at frequent intervals. Earlier researchers approached this problem by adding iron together with citric acid or tartaric acid to nutrient solutions. Compounds such as citric or tartaric acid are called chelating agents in that they form soluble complexes with cations such as iron and calcium. More modern nutrient solutions use the chemical ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) or diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid (DTPA or pentetic acid) as a chelating agent (Sievers and Bailar, 1962). The structure of DTPA is shown in Figure 5.2. The fate of the chelation complex during iron uptake by the root cells is not clear; iron may be released from the chelator when it is reduced from Fe3+ to Fe2+ at the root surface. The chelator could then diffuse back into the nutrient (or soil) solution and react with another Fe3+ ion. Following uptake, iron is kept soluble by chelation with organic compounds present in plant cells. Citric acid may play a major role in iron chelation and its long-distance transport in the xylem (Olsen et al., 1981).

I hope this helps.

-Dustin


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## BLaZe

so does that prove that i can use citric acid as a chelator for my tablets ? :O


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