# Mangrove substrate questions.



## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

I am looking to provide the ideal substrate for an all-mangrove tank. Though these plants are more commonly seen in full marine or brackish conditions, freshwater is not out of the limits for the tank. After doing some research on the natural habitat and environment of the mangroves (red mangroves, in this case), I have found what i believe to be the three most appropriate substrates to use.

Marine BioSediment

Aragamax Sand

AND PEAT MOSS

my only questions are:

What is the best combination of these?

What are the advantages and disadvantages to using each of these substrates individually?

Can anyone recommend another good medium?

thank you.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

Drsfostersmith.com sell some "Mud" that is supposedly good for them


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## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

Which variety?
And what are your thoughts on the options?

How should one go about preparing the substrates?

Thank You.


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## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

What would be the best ratio of the thre substrates to use for the mangroves?

Thank you.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Here is a site that might help... Mangroves in aquarium


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## Samala (Jun 13, 2005)

If I may, a mix of silica sand (you could get at Lowes) or the Aragamax with a bit of the 'mud' preparations you have mentioned would be more than adequate for mangroves. Most likely you will end up dosing the water to fuel their growth long term, in addition to the bioload you provide. I have seen photos of tanks that were setup using primarily oolitic calcium based sand in addition to manure (yeah!) that produced beautiful mangroves, but that's probably not the best method for everyone. 

Alternatively, you could ask the folks at NOVA Southeastern University how they culture their mangroves and what substrate they use. http://www.nova.edu/ocean/aqua/mangroves/index.html

>Sarah


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## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

It would be wiser to place the mangroves in an established system, rather than a "dry" sand/mud bed, correct?

It looks like the main issues that I would encounter so far are their misting needs (daily) and their Mg uptake.

The Kent marine biosediment appears to provide sufficient levels of Mg for start up, but, assuming that the trees will grow, they will eventually need more. Most likely, the system they filter will be a reef, so the chances are, I will be dosing Mg anyways.

Another nutrient that is beneficial for both algae (kind used in filters, not the plague types) and mangroves is Fe. The problem however, is that the measurable difference of Fe and its _actual_ bioavailibility cannot be measured. The only system of dosing, albeit crude and fairly uncontrolled, to simply add some Fe or Fe compounds and see how much works best.

Does anyone know how well some planted freshwater substrates might do in a fully marine situation?

I thought perhaps that Fluorite may be the best option, but if there are other ideal candidates, or unseen problems with using Fluorite, please let me know.

Thank you.


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## Samala (Jun 13, 2005)

Unseen problems with Flourite. Well, I've tried some of the more iron heavy substrates in saltwater, just for yucks. Basically in each case the substrate leached very large quantities of a reddish haze into the water. Perhaps iron oxide, perhaps not. I'm not exactly a geochemist.  

If you are an aquarist who doesnt like to move things around too much, Flourite may work out alright. Honestly the areas where mangroves grow aren't usually full of clay, such as you might find more in the sediments along rivers where many of the freshwater plants originate. Instead, it tends to be marine sediment of muck and sands. Very little in the way of clay, much more silt. They dont appear to be very high in Fe content naturally, but (again) I could be wrong. 

Too much Fe available in the water column has led to outbreaks of diatoms in aquariums before. It is not a completely established relationship, but it has happened to me in the past and is repeatable. Varying some of the other variables may lead to an instance where this would not happen. 

I wish I had the time to test out all the causal observations I see from my tanks, but it would be a full time job! 

It would probably be better to place them in an established system, yes. But I would suggest that for pretty much any living organism we place in our glass boxes. 

Finally, yep, the only 'system' for dosing iron at the moment is by drop-and-see. It IS very crude, I agree. We're trying to work out something much more elegant, but we're constrained by the number of tanks we have available to play with. We as in the community of marine plant keepers that is. I am trying to work out level of toxicity for iron in marine environments using a few invertebrate bioassays, which is slow work but showing some results. I hope to have that available for everyone's use and review before the year is out. (Long time, I know.)

>Sarah


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## Samala (Jun 13, 2005)

Did you ever move forward with the plans for this tank? I'd be very interested to hear any updates you might have, and offer any advice or ideas if you'd like.  The marine plant community is mighty small, so every new tank is a new opportunity to learn something.

You can check out some of my work on seagrasses and macroalgae (never got bit by the mangrove bug.. yet) at http://www.seanursery.com. That's my own blog-website.

>Sarah


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Sarah, I have tons of questions for you regarding your site. 

First of all, I love it. Second, I am having a very hard time maneuvering in it. 

Is this the best place to ask you questions regarding this? 

I appreciate your help with this, and the work that you have done in this field so far. 

An aquarium without a plant does not seem complete, even if it is a Nano Reef. 

You know?


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

In response to the first post, the links to those two products look and sound exactly like argonite. I don't think those would really qualify as 'mud'. You may want to take a look at www.garf.org there seems to be one or two products that would contain many more beneficial things for your substrate. I have not tried them yet, but have been looking at them for a bit.

The Kent Marine Bio-Sediment sounded exactly like http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Meridian.html which may be good as a substrate but I do not think it has anything special in it for seagrasses or macroalgae. But I defer to Samala for actual experience.

Samala?


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## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

Good news hobbiests!

Red mangroves can be kept in FW, BW, and full SW!!!

See this thread at reef central for the Mg dosing equation (crucial part of care)
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1096579

I'm currently designing a floating planter for the mangroves...keeping them out of substrate seems to encourage those fantastic root systems many look for.


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## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

also, on the subject of peat moss, I've found a good local place that sells about 3cu ft for $10.98. Some folks have expressed their concerns about adding peat moss for excess nutrients, so I figure it may be safe to use the exhausted kind by running it through a coffee machine first (also makes cheap blackwater extract).


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> so I figure it may be safe to use the exhausted kind by running it through a coffee machine first (also makes cheap blackwater extract).


 The Red Mangroves part sounds fantastic, but you are going to do WHAT with a coffee machine???!


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## Eutrophication (Dec 19, 2006)

Nutrient overloaded peat goes into coffee machine, blackwater is produced, and the waste product is 'exhausted peat'.

Anyone care to pitch in some designs for the foating planter? Right now i have a "tube" shape, and a floating box basically; I need ideas...


Another idea I had was to mix polystyrene pellets in with DIYLR mixture to create a weak floating planter that could eventually be broken apart by the force of the mangrove's roots.

Thanks.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

How about converting a floating breeding trap? You could cut a large hole in the base of a plastic one and glue mesh to keep the planting medium in. For planting medium why not use something light like Hortag or even Aquasoil?
My other idea was to just use a polystyrene collar with no planting medium and let the plant get the nutrients from the water, but it won't grow very fast like this I imagine.

Just had a quick idea - What about using rockwool? You can buy it in blocks for hydroponic growing and it provides something to anchor the plant in without providing nutrients. You could just add a polystyrene collar for floatation. The roots will grow straight out of the rockwool into the tank.


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## yoko (Apr 11, 2007)

*Eutrophication*, I have been researching Mangroves recently and I too, was planning on placing a layer of peat at the base of my substrate, but thru extensive reading I learned that doing so would not be benefitial, as they are not grown in soil/peat/ earth in nature, but sand and mud. 
The use of coral-sand is not reccomended, *unless* only for saltwater or brackish conditions-- never for freshwater applications. Do not use peat, earth or coral-sand under any circumstances, not even as a mixture in a freshwater set-up! 
Loam and sand would be an excellent substrate for mangroves:bathbaby:

You are aware that you can also attach mangroves to grow on driftwood, right?
This makes it a lot easier to move, as I am sure you've read by now how sesitive mangroves can be! They often go into shock, when transplanted.:sing:


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

I have 10 mangroves that I grew from pods and I floated them on a styrofoam disc. It is important to have very little water flow so the pods feel stable and start sending out roots. After all the pods were stage 1 (roots and 2 leaves) I taped half of the pods in a paludarium bare rooted, and the other half rooted in a 10gal npt (1inch dirt capped with 1inch gravel).

Surprisingly the mangroves in dirt grew roots out quickly in just a couple months, twice as big as the bare roots. The only downside is that all of the extra root growth was horizontal along the glass. Once yours start growing it would be good to pull them up a little bit every couple of months so the roots will still travel down.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

How tall do these grow?


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

One mangrove can fill your whole room, but they are very slow growers and once you have 5-6 leaves you can trim them a little bit like bonsai. I have read that mangroves can break an aquarium if the roots grow to big. Yoko is dead on about how sensitive they are, I just about lost half of mine by trying to plant them in substrate without floating them first. 

In saltwater tanks they are very efficient and can take away the need for a skimmer but they use up magnesium quickly. I am knew to planted aquariums and I was wondering if low levels of magnesium will affect our plants? Okay, i'm done hijacking thread!


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