# cichlids and plants



## losthere (Apr 4, 2006)

Let me say that i am new to fw plants. First of all i have a 55 gallon tank with african peacocks, and i am attempting to do some (3) java ferns and (2) swords. I have a 96 watt pc, but i have a 10000K/atinic (saltwater light) because the 6700 and the 6700/10000 made my fish look terrible. The light was very yellow and very bright. The plants are doing ok but arent growing very fast and they get algea on them. I have recently been told that co2 will lower the pH, my peacocks need a high pH(and hardness). How much will the co2 lower the pH, and is it possible for the ferns to grow in this current condition. Also is it possible to adjust for the pH if necessary. I currently have a little crushed coral in the substrate and some in the filter. I also add a little reef salt to increase the pH and it has good elements for africans. I read somewhere that java ferns and swords can tolerate a little salt. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Actinic bulbs are not good for growing plants. 10000K bulbs would work much better. With those bulbs you would have enough light for several different plants. CO2 will lower the PH, but that shouldn't affect your fish - I understand that KH and GH are much more important for the fish than PH is. If you really do want to grow plants and not algae, you need to provide what the plants need to grow - NPK fertilizer, microelement fertilizer, and some form of carbon. And, you need to make sure you don't get ammonia spikes from decaying food, fish droppings, dead plants - keep the tank clean. You can try a natural method, without CO2 or Excel, but with much lower growth rate. I think you need to do a lot more research and learn more before trying too many things that might be counter productive.


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## losthere (Apr 4, 2006)

*You dont say???*

first of all it is a dual bulb with 1/2 atinic and 1/2 10000K. I do understand that that light isnt ideal but my question remains will this grow java ferns. And i guess that you didnt read that that type of light makes my fish look like crap. That is why i opted to use the dual atinic bulb. Trust me i know a lot about plant biology, I am an agricultural business major with a minor in plant science. That being said, i am using a fert. Kent Freshwater, now is that the right one or do i need some more or something else. HOPPYCALIF i am not too worried about ammonia spikes, this tank has been running for over 3 ½ years, and for the last year or so have had no nitrates or ammonia to speak of, i know quite a bit about fish, just not aquatic plants. That is why i am using very forgiving plants, because i do not know what i am doing with them, now show me a lettuce field then it is a different story. Furthermore isnt THIS a part of research???

Oh yeah if you guys would like to help me out my questions still exist.


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## TetraFreak (Mar 15, 2006)

If you want a bulb that will grow plants as well as not cast that tinge to the tank, you will want to find a GE 9325K CF Bilb in the wattage you need.


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## jimjim (Jan 25, 2004)

*Plants and cichlids*

Losthere: While I'm not a ag major I've been keeping cichlids and plants together for a long time (40+ yrs).  There are a couple of ways to do this and keep harmony in the tank. Easiest way is using Anubias, Java Ferns and other LOW light plants. These will live and grow just using a 1 watt candle. The best way for your tank IMO is to remove one of your bulbs (your choice). You have quite a bit of light for those plants. (look up Diana Walsted and the natural tank). This will cut some of the alge (they like lots of light) and still allow you to watch the fish. Also by using the above plants you dont need CO2 ferts etc. The fish will (by natural processing of food ;-) give you all the ferts you need. If you add Lake salts this will also give you what you need for traces. Last but not least anything thats missing can be covered by just using tap water when you do your weekly water change....

If you're wanting a Amano type tank, it can also be done but I'd say do some looking here and the planted tank forum before leaping off into that mess..

One nice thing about peacocks is they dont devour plants like Mbuna so it is possible to do a beutiful tank using hard water (you'll be surprised at how many plants love hard water) and these fish. It all depends on how much maintenace you want to do. Try keeping the low light ones first and go as high tech as you want slowly(I've seen low light plant tanks that will rival Amanos.)

Good Luck and have fun learning,,,,Jim


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## Bombay (Mar 6, 2006)

> first of all it is a dual bulb with 1/2 atinic and 1/2 10000K. I do understand that that light isnt ideal but my question remains will this grow java ferns.


 Yes, many folks grow java ferns in their cichlid tanks. Apparently they are not harmed by the salts. I don't see very many Swords being grown in these conditions though. Experiment.


> And i guess that you didnt read that that type of light makes my fish look like crap. That is why i opted to use the dual atinic bulb. Trust me i know a lot about plant biology, I am an agricultural business major with a minor in plant science.


 I'd be willing to bet that he did read it. Maybe you just didn't like his answer. The actinic, many believe, is great at growing algae.


> That being said, i am using a fert. Kent Freshwater, now is that the right one or do i need some more or something else.


 You will need the macros and the trace elements and some form of carbon, but you already know all that. Check to see if your bottle of Kent has those things.


> HOPPYCALIF i am not too worried about ammonia spikes, this tank has been running for over 3 ½ years, and for the last year or so have had no nitrates or ammonia to speak of, i know quite a bit about fish, just not aquatic plants.


 I think you mean nitr-i-te spikes. You are gonna want nitrates.


> That is why i am using very forgiving plants, because i do not know what i am doing with them, now show me a lettuce field then it is a different story. Furthermore isnt THIS a part of research???


Check here for starter research. And maybe here too.

And no, basic research is not just starting cold turkey and asking questions. Unless your question is, "Can you point me to some beginner articles to start my research?"



> Oh yeah if you guys would like to help me out my questions still exist.


 Welcome aboard. If you phrase your replies differently you might get some answers. No one likes a know-it-all who doesn't know-it-all.


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## losthere (Apr 4, 2006)

*Ha Ha u are funny*

BOMBAY
*Quote:*I think you mean nitr-i-te spikes. You are gonna want nitrates
*Anwser:* Sorry for the typo, spell check dosent catch that

*Quote: * And no, basic research is not just starting cold turkey and asking questions. Unless your question is, "Can you point me to some beginner articles to start my research?"
*Anwser:* dont you think i have done some reserch and have some good prior knowledge of the biology of plants? They dont give difinitive anwsers to my questions, so the anwsers are a little gray and arent specific to my setup. And this way i can get some remaining questions answered, here hofpfully by someone not as condecending as you BOMBAY and HOPPYCALIF, that are pretty specific. And i didnt say this IS reserch i said a PART get it PART of reserch.

*Quote:* If you phrase your replies differently you might get some answers. No one likes a know-it-all who doesn't know-it-all.
*Anwser:* Did you not read the beginging of my qustion where i say that i dont know a whole lot about aquatic plants. I read my responses over and over agian and i did not see anything where I claim to be a know it all, maybe that is your own assertion. I do know a lot about a lot of different things but i will never claim to be a know it all.

Ok now after having to defend myself form over zelous plant people I would like to thank you BOMBAY and others for the great info. If anybody has some more insight it will be greatly appreciated, just dont attack me, and i wont to you. D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. 8)


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## jimjim (Jan 25, 2004)

My, a bit grouchy this afternoon, aren't we. Just reread the above responses and don't see that they're that bad. BTW My second career was as a Professor teaching Building science. Ask your questions more specifically. They'll get answered more specifically.


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## Bombay (Mar 6, 2006)

Hey Losthere:
Let's get back on track.

50/50 bulbs - I agree, they look better. Opinions may vary, but one I have seen is that the actinic may or could contribute to algae problems. Keep that in mind. Also suggested was to replace the 50/50 with a 10k bulb. It will give you more of the blues, but not as much as the actinic.

Plants in cichlid - I will be setting up a cichlid tank in the next couple of weeks. I am currently researching and this is what I have found. Keep in mind that your research may result in different info. I will be using jave fern, anubias, and vallisneria...and maybe java moss. The first 3 (based on others experiences) do grow in the water parameters required for cichlids (including the 'salt'). If I recall my research correctly, vallisneria is indiginous to some of the areas where we find cichlids.

Referenced above as NPK - Just as you would need to know the parameters or nutritive condition of your soil, it would be helpful to know how much nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, iron, and other trace elements you have in your water...if in fact you are going to provide the optimum balance for your plants. You can do this via test kits. You wouldn't want to add Kent ferts etc if your nitrates are already up there in the correct range.

CO2 - most of the folks that I've seen that keep cichlids and plants, don't go with co2. As mentioned above, you probably could get away with adding the co2 since your water has great buffering capacity (being a cichlid tank). You would need to probably go pressurized co2 since you have a 55 gallon. I don't think I will go c02 in my initial cichlid/plant setup.

Hope that helps!


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## losthere (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, thank you for the new information. I did try a 10000K but it wasnt much better than the 6700K still too yellow, too bright, and just washed out my fish. However the 50/50 bulb seems to be adding to the algea, which i have heard it can do. Some people think it is a myth but i know it is a fact, atinic causes more of an algea bloom. I will look into the bulb recomended above, but i have tried 4 different pc bulbs and the 50/50 makes my tank look the best. And by the way some of you seem to think that i am bragging about being an Agricultural Business major, that is not it at all, I was trying to demostrate that know a lot about plant biology, because someone was assuming that i know nothing about the subject. Secondly an Ag. Business major is nothing to brag about, at least to me, maybe if I was getting a Phd. or become a lawer then I might brag, but Im not that smart.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

If you don't want your pH to drop via CO2, how about using Excel instead? I don't know if you've discovered this thread or not, but there is an excellent list of plants/cichlid combination here from Travis on post #8. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/14071-plants-for-african-cichlids.html?highlight=cichlids+plants


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