# Need To Catch You Up To Speed.



## walterk

It's been about three years since I've attended a meeting, after moving from Plano to McGregor. I recently discarded my 80 gallon tank after twenty-seven years of service. It was acrylic and developed a tiny leak on a back, bottom seam. Made me nervous, so I dismantled "my baby" and threw it away. :mmph:

Last month, I had someone visit my office and he saw my two tanks in there. He commented that he used to build aquarium stands. I told him about my dream tank that I'd like to own someday. He replied that he'd love to build me an aquarium cabinet for that tank, and he said that he would do so under one condition -- he would do it for free.

The catch was that he would build it out of scrap wood he has in his back yard. He has a huge pile of it back there. I agreed and thanked him in advance.

He didn't blink twice when I told him how big my dream tank would be. I've always wanted a shallow planted aquarium and is quite long. I've always liked the look of a 20 gal long for some reason. With a tank that shallow, I reasoned that the stand should be extra tall. The challenge with building a stand that tall is that it might prove to be unsteady. So, he built it wider than that tank.

I'm now saving for an acrylic tank that measures 96" long X 14" wide X 13" high.

This cabinet stand measures 98" long X 20" wide X 48" tall.

I'm 6' 6" tall. When I sit in my chair in the office, I will be able to look directly into the tank at eye level.





































The top lifts off. This makes it easier to transport in two pieces.










Each of the three sections has a shelf that is adjustable. I really didn't care if the inside was rough.

If everything goes well, I hope to have the aquarium set up in late 2011. It is torture to wait that long, but I want to do it right and I also have some things I have to do financially to clear the way for this project. Patience is difficult. #-o

I'm planning on having low-light plants in the tank (anubias, mosses, ferns on manzanita wood and some floating plants as well). I'd like a sand substrate. I'd also like to have a small school of Corydoras sterbai in there as well.


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## Ekrindul

The stand looks great. He did a great job. Looks like pine, which stains very nicely, especially with the lacquer finish.


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## fishyjoe24

looks real nice, don't forget to visit back home every now and then. plano has changed a lot what made you move to OK? I can't wait to the tank on there. my friend has a 300g acrylic and loves it.


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## alta678

What quality workmanship! That stand is worthy of a tank of equal craftmanship. Well worth the wait. Congratulations on your new stand.


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## TanyaQ2000

excellent workmanship....been married to a woodtick for almost 30 years now and this is quality work, congrats!


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## Tex Gal

Beautiful! Hope you don't have to wait too long for your tank. I cant imagine this for free!!!


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## walterk

Thanks for the comments. Oh, I'm still in Texas. McGregor is down near Waco. I might be able to make it up for a meeting. I think I'll wait until the tank is up and running though. If I bring back any plants, I want a place to put them besides my 46 bow.


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## fishyjoe24

cool, I was thinking of a city that it's in OK. I kind of know the area you moved to now that you say waco.


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## walterk

I promised myself that I wouldn't get anything for the tank until I meet other financial goals. So much for that.  A couple of days back I ordered three pieces of manzanita wood. Two are 36" long and another is 48".

I've got plenty of time to dream about the rest.

At the moment, I'm thinking about these measurements for the tank: 96" long X 18" wide X 13" high. I wanted a school of Corydoras in there, so shallow is good. The stand is 4' high, and when I sit down it is right at eye level from my desk.

For plants, I was thinking about Christmas moss on the wood. I've got a bunch of it in my 46. I like the look of Peacock moss better, but there's no cost with the other plant.

Other plants: Anubias and perhaps fissidens. Has anyone had luck with fissidens on wood or contained in mesh? I'm thinking of having 1/3 of the surface covered with floating plants. The front part of the tank might be right for this. I'm going to try using a strip of rain gutter mesh to contain it there.

Possibilities for...

Lighting: any opinions about this http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=LT-HMAAS42T5L

Filtration: 4 of http://www.marinedepot.com/Current_..._Filters-Current_USA-CU08026-FIFRITWP-vi.html

Substrate: 50-50 mix of white and black (I had this before) http://www.ablackhorse.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=101911&idcategory=0 3/4" to 1" depth.

One challenge with this approach will be getting out the solid waste without moving the sand around too much. I want the sand for the Corys.

I had a surface skimmer on my 80 gal, which was 17" tall. I ran a good deal of current in that tank and the filter roll had to be rinsed frequently. This tank will be 13" tall, so with moderate current, I'm hopeful that it will still be able to deal with much of the waste from the Corys. I hope.

There will be another concern with the balance between the floating plants and the surface skimmer -- amount of current and keeping the floating plants contained.


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## walterk

Layed out some manzanita wood and river rocks. Which direction do you favor and why? Quite honestly, I like them both. One reminds me of a real stream, with all branches on the wood pointed "downstream." I like this because it is more "relaxing" to view.

The other has a more distinct focal point where the two pieces come together, but has more "tension" than the other arrangement.

Your thoughts?


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## fishyjoe24

both look good, I like them both. I would play around with the wood some more.


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## kimcadmus

I prefer the stream affect. It might be nice to have a few larger (more round) river rocks and to transition between the two areas with a few of the flat ones. I can really see some long grassy or flowing plants in there growing behind and through the wood.

What substrate will you be using?


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## Michael

The first one gets my vote.


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## AquaBarren

Nice big layout. No one can answer this for you. I like the idea of #1 with complimentary shapes running in the same direction, but the overall shape of #2 looks more balanced.

I vote with Kim, keep working with the orientation in #1, increasing overlap, more rocks, adjusting heights.

This arrangement is 4 different pieces of wood arranged to compliment each other, moving mostly left to right. Rocks and stainless screws were used to secure the parts at angles that worked together.










Probably another hundred combintonsto have played with. Have fun, you have some great pieces to work with.


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## niko

Whoa!

Such a nice plan for a tank. And this is pure aquascaping, truly!

Walter, take your time deciding. I like plan #1 myself. But the wood pointing toward the open door. I'd also leave a lot of free room on the right. Just how I'd do it.

Something else that will help you a lot - when you move the wood take pictures. For some reason pictures help you see mistakes better. It seems to me that if a hardscape looks good on a picture it looks even better in real life.

Once you are done with the dry arrangement please soak this Mazanita. This wood takes ages to sink. AquaBarren did the right thing with stainless steel screws + rocks to make it stay down. It's either that or t least 2 months floating.

Can't wait to see how it will all turn out!

AquaBarren, I can almost see your face in the reflection. Funny how we form a notion of how people look based on a screename, haha.

--Nikolay


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## AquaBarren

Hi Niko,

You can see my face in my profile. 10-year old picture and the mustache is long one...as is a good part of the hair on my head. 

Read my journal...most of the rocks came into the picture about ten minutes into the fill...lol...good thing I had some extras around. Lesson learned.


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## walterk

Thank you very much for the opinions. They are appreciated.

AquaBarren, that's some VERY interesting pieces of wood to play with! That looks GREAT!

I do agree that "no one can answer this for you." I realize that, ultimately, *I* need to be happy with it. Still, hearing the opinions of others will help me to sort things out.

kimcadmus, it was my dream to have a planted aquarium dedicated to Corydoras catfish. The fish are of primary concern for me. So, I'm slowly purchasing bags of Estes "Marine Sand." I've used it before, and it is FW safe. I want to have the depth no more than 1/2", and a color mix that is representative of the below theme (which I've done before). The use of coated sand at a shallow depth should be ideal for their well being -- especially their barbels.

I'm originally from Washington State. I also wanted this aquarium to have elements of an estuary in the Washington rain forest: moss covered trees, river rocks in sand, some sea weed.




























This will be a shallow and long tank. Right now, my thoughts are: 90" X 18" X 14". The stand was built at 40" high so I can look straight into it when I'm seated in my office...right at my eye level.

With that in mind, I'd like a or the focal point to be "right there" for me when I look at the tank from my desk. The tape measure in the pics show the focal point of "The Golden Triangle" that Amano loves to use. I like that idea. It's something that I'm playing with.

Now, which way to place the wood is what I'm pondering. I like both ideas. I currently have one huge branch, on the right, and two smaller branches combined on the left to give a fuller and more complete look. There are also five or six minor "twigs" in there, but those three are what I'm working with right now. That may be sufficient.

I will revisit the landscape supply company to hand select additional river rocks. I'm going to try and get some larger ones as well.

I'm toying with the idea of having lighter sand at the focal point and no rock there.

I've got months to work this out. I can't afford the actual aquarium until late in the year. Knowing my personality, I think I will enjoy just playing around with ideas in the meantime.

Anything you can contribute is appreciated. I may end up in a different place at the end of the year with all of this -- good to have fun with it.


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## walterk

Niko,

Thanks. Everyone has chosen #1. For me, it is much more relaxing to view, and very natural. Still, I love the "creative tension" of the other arrangement. I'm going to let it set for a while.

Great idea about taking pics. It gives you the ability to see mistakes and a library of the possibilities. What I've found though, for me, is that "live" has much more beauty than what the pics show. It just doesn't capture what is laided out.

Up to two months to soak the wood? :jaw:

About the "right portion"...leaving it open is a good thought. I was also entertaining placing more rock over there to see how that looks.

About the rock -- I favor the idea of having rocks of all sizes scattered about. For perspective sake though, one could have larger rocks closer and some smaller rocks deeper in the tank to give the illusion of greater depth. Just a thought.


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## AquaBarren

hi Walter,

I have one of those filters. At some point in my 84g, ver 1, I decided that I wanted to add some supplimentary flow as well as skim some surface scum. This filter seemed perfect. 

It does work well. It did have a few challenges though that I thought I'd mention since you are going to rely on 4 of them. 

First, the suction cups tend to harden and the unit slips eventually. If you're dilligent about keeping your back wall clean no worries, but it was a little bit of a nuisance for me. 

The second thing is that the overflow tended to be sensitive to water level. If too high, water comes in from low and the surface isn't skimmed at all. If too low it very quickly starts to suck air and rattles and bubbles like crazy. It also has fairly low surface area for the pre-filter and it tended to clog frequently. Towards the end I was just cutting and replacing the pre-filter with new every weekend. This of course is exacerbated by challenge #1.

Third, the box is 8 inches tall, the outflow tubes project another inch or two below the bottom. Add in depth of substrate and a little clearance from the top and it might actually be a little tight in your 13" tank. 

None of these are severe. They were just niggles. I travel a lot and I'd often come home to a slipped filter, or slightly low water level with the thing sucking air, blowing bubbles and making a racket. When the pre-filter clogs, it virtually stops pumping water too. I liked it. It did just what I hoped, but did take a lot of fiddling to keep it functioning well...well meaning moving water at full efficiency and actually skimming the surface.

The fiddling was weekly, not daily, but was starting to make me crazy so out it came. But it did work when "figgled"

YMMV of course. Since you are going to depend on them as your primary, I'd be happy to ship my old out to you for experimentation. Send it back when you're done, I'm going to use it in a QT one of these days. If you don't have experience with the unit, you may want to play with it before planning around it for your project. Happy to oblige.

Love the idea of a tank based on your roots, no pun intended. good luck, can't wait to see it.

AB


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## walterk

Thanks, AquaBarren --

Yeah, I'm having second thoughts about those skimmers. My office can get fairly hot in the summer even with the AC. As a result, I have to top off my 46 gal frequently. I could see 4 of those things requiring constant maintenance. :mmph:

I'm pondering an Eheim canister or two, perhaps one with a skimmer.


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## walterk

Messed around with the driftwood a final time tonight.

Please ignore the placement of the rocks. That will have to come later on.

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/?action=view&current=AquariumHardscape.mp4


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## AquaBarren

That looks great Walter. Really nice.

Now the hard part....waiting for the tank. Can you stand it?


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## Michael

Walter, I am really looking forward to following the development of your design. Your inspirations are beautiful, and you analyze them very well in the context of your tank.

The cories will look wonderful schooling among the driftwood. What species will you include?

Subscribed!


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## niko

This is getting better and better!

Just a comment with a good idea when playing with hardscape; If you do not have an idea where the surface of the water is you can miss a lot and the final product suffers. The branches may end up laying too low. Or be too close to the surface. The free space that is a very important part of the aquascape is not very tangible without reference points. I guess all of us will agree that the beauty is all in the proportions of the tank constraints, decorations, and fish.

Walter, if you find a way to somehow outline where the surface of the water will be I think it will help a lot. Maybe you can do that with blue masking tape (thin sliver of it) on the wall. So when you sit at your desk you can "see" the proportions. And I guess.. it may help to have the sides outlined too.

Really, since this is going to be carefully thought of - why not even build a cheap wire frame emulating the tank? If it is doable since the dimentions are so big (sagging of the wire etc.). Hope that that's actually doable- it will really, really help you with the ratios and composition.

--Nikolay


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## niko

Walter,

As to the filtration... I think you really want a tank without visible equipment in it. After what AquaBarren described about these surface skimming filters all that I can say is "inconsistent system!". Trust me you do not want to have a big tank with big issues. Better do something simple and proven for the filtration. Which takes us once again to the Japanese:

Big filter volume - for long term tank wellbeing
Flow good enough to make the plant leaves move - food supply; removal of waste; Oxygen to bacteria living in the tank
U-shaped flow - smooth and strong; involves water into motion from all parts of the tank
Biofiltration only - does not impede flow because clogging is minimal; consistent flow
Aeration at night -a canister filter is not a perfect place for biofiltration (little Oxygen) so help it out at night


Also about the Cories; 
I noticed something interesting with fish species from the same parts of the world. It seems that they are used to each other. Cories and rummynose tetras do exceptionally well together. It's as if they show each other that the place is safe. The behaviour is different when you have them by themselves. And in your case - wood with hanging moss (weeping moss will be PERFECT for the look you want), open spaces, and small catfish on the bottom - everything is "hanging down" or "pointing down". You must have fish that swim in the middle layer of the water. I cannot actually think of a better fish than a rummynose. Tight schooling, places to hide, spaces to swim freely, interaction with the Cories as I described, and a touch of red. Hope you visualize what I mean and like it. Just my opinion.

--Nikolay


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## walterk

AquaBarren -- Thanks. Yeah, it is difficult waiting, but quite honestly I've been planning this tank for about thirty years. I kid you not. I figured that there would be no way to afford such a set up, but when someone built the 40" cabinet stand for me for free, it's given the dream new life!

Michael -- Thank you. I had the notion to dedicate the tank to a single species of Cory (sterbai). I want to experience that for a while. Once I do, I may or may not add additional fish. I might add another species of Cory. I might add rummy nose (likely) or bloodfins or scissor tails. Each of these fish school in different ways. My experience has been that rummy nose make for a tight formation that is quite peaceful to watch, the Bloodfins I've kept school in an even tighter formation, scissor tails have a bit of a "herky-jerky" movement.

Niko -- As usual, you bring up some thoughtful suggestions and things to consider. I've done a little more research, and AquaBarren's experience with that particular skimmer is common. Too much work. I won't be going in that direction. 

I'm thinking about one or two Eheim canisters -- perhaps a single one with a good flow rate. I built up my hardscape in my 46 with 1" pieces of black lava rock. I may use a bit of that for biofiltration in the canisters. I'll use mulum from that tank as well.

One or two internal circulation pumps might help with that "U" shape flow.

Yeah, I can visualize the Corys just loving the ecosystem in there. 

Concerning the hardscape -- I've been very obsessive with the measuring tape. Not only have I plotted "The Golden Triangle," but I've also measured vertically, at 14", to make sure everything fits. Still, your suggestion about the wire is a good one. I may try that.


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## niko

Eheim canister filters will run pretty expensive compared to making a canister filter setup with PanWorld or BlueLine Japanese pumps. These things are like the pumps that Amano uses. Eheim pumps cannot compare, except they will probably run many years without any issues. PanWorld/BlueLine/Iwaki pumps shine when the going gets tough - if there is clogging in the filter they will continue moving the same amount of water, while the Eheim will slow down to a crawl. That impacts the biofilter efficiency and you get issues quickly.

To me the biggest bang for the buck would be NuClear or OceanClear canisters with one of the two kinds of pumps I just mentioned. Noise will be zero, flow will always be powerful. But it all will require fittings, visits to Home Depot and other kinds of lame fun.

Also keep in mind that with such an open aquascape you will not need too much flow. And it will be easy to establish a U-pattern flow. So the Eheims maybe just fine, guaranteed to work for years, and ready to go out of the box.

Another option is a Fluval FX5. It is a competitor to the Eheim filters and from what we all see so far - a good one.

--Nikolay


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## alta678

I like the video of the final branch placement. Nice visual flow with some visual tension for interest. Nice!


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## walterk

Niko - I hear what you're saying about Canister + pump combinations, but I prefer out of the box right now.

I've gleaned online opinions about various canister filters. Naturally, there is no consensus. Some claim that Fluval and other models may have more consistent flow rates over time, but the Eheim brand will generally trap more (and need to be cleaned more often).

I've owned Fluval models, but never an Eheim. My plan is to give it a try with this particular aquarium. I like that they are well made, are very quiet, and have a very good reputation.

Naturally, given that I've got months to put this together, I could change my mind several times...and that's okay. :whoo:

alta678 - Thanks. I got tired of just taking 2D pics, and decided to try a video. It really gives a much better representation of the actual depth and placement.


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## walterk

Niko - I've seen many of the links that you've provided on other threads. There are some very impressive tanks out there.

One thing I've noticed, is that the vast majority of these are created to give the impression that you are viewing something "grand" (rocks representing mountains, twigs representing a forest, etc.).

What I'm attempting to do is something different. To a good degree, I want river rock to represent river rock and I want tree branches to represent tree branches. With an 8' tank I can do that.

I also want this to represent an estuary. That is a place where everything meets together: forest, river, beach, saltwater, etc. I want a little bit of everything.


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## Michael

Walter, you have put your finger on one of the main dicotomies in current aquascaping; what I call "landscape vs. replication of nature". Landscape style tries to represent a large natural landscape in miniature. This is usually the goal of iwagumi, although many people don't seem to realize it. Nature style tries to replicate an especially attractive under-water habitat at 1:1, or full scale with no miniaturization. This is what you want to do.

Confusingly, many people refer to both as "nature aquariums", including Amano himself if I am not mistaken. This may be a problem of translation from Japanese.

Japanese gardens show this same division, among other diverse styles.


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## walterk

Michael - That's spot on.

While I appreciate the artistry and technical aspects of "miniaturization," it is not where I am at all.

I'm not saying that I would enter this aquarium in an aquascaping contest, but if I would, I wonder how this would be received? How would it be critiqued?

I generally do not like competition when it comes to presenting something like this. Why? It's because there is the temptation of creating this in ways that others might appreciate. I want to be satisfied with this. I want input from others, but ultimately I need to be satisfied.


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## niko

Well, my view about entering any tank into the ADA contest;

A week or so ago I wrote a post in reaction to a video I saw depicting in detail the ADA judging of the top 10 or 20 tanks. Apparently I wrote the post in a way unacceptable by APC. It was deleted minutes after I posted it up. So here I will try to convey what I saw leaving out the personal views on why some tanks will always win at ADA.

The contest is about showing creativity within the rules. And showing that you know the rules so well that you also know how to break them. With your aquascape you prove that you stick to the rules anyway.

The judges' comments (not just Amano) were very clear about the above.

So as I have been saying more and more lately - if you enjoy your tank that is all that really matters for most people. A contest preparation is a serious endeavor and needs to be approached as such.

Michael,

It was very interesting to read about "landscape vs. replication of nature". I myself always thought that an aquascape should look as if you went to the creek and used a machete to cut out a rectangular shape of... Nature. Then took it home. A rimless tank really helps visualize that 

Tanks that try to portray landscape views always came across as cheesy to me, even the very nice ones. Making a distinction between the two approaches seems VERY important to me. In a way, with aquascaping we are trying to learn a new language here. And we can't just make up words as we please. The Japanese rules are exactly about that I think - about the use of aesthetic rules established and proven for centuries. This "new language" does not have words - just rocks, wood, plants, and free space. Getting the basics right is important indeed - one good example is what you described - knowing the difference between "landscape vs. replication of nature" styles.

--Nikolay


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## Michael

Having done bonsai for 30 years, I am very familiar with the pit-falls of miniaturization. I greatly admire the best aquarium landscape designs because they convey the impression of a large natural scene as well or better than the best bonsai and saikei or "tray landscape". The aquariums have an advantage in the extremely fine texture of some aquatic plants, which is difficult to achieve with terrestrial plants. And the lighting and background of the aquarium gives the artist a chance to convey atmospheric perseptive that one cannot in bonsai.

That said, like you Niko my own favorite aquariums are the "nature style". Maybe I'm tried of trying to do miniature landscapes in pots.

Regarding the ADA judging of aquascapes, one must remember that the Japanese are obsessed with rules, categories, and classifications. This produces very similar styles among practitioners. The same thing happens in bonsai--an exhbit of prize-winning black pine bonsai by Japanese artists can look like the same tree in 15 different (but still very similar) pots. This is because the Japanese rules of what is appropriate for a black pine bonsai are very strict and limiting.

An exhibit of American or Chinese black pine bonsai (penjing in Chinese) gives a very different impression. Here the trees are much more individual, and styles are freer. However, American bonsai sometimes lack refinement and control, and Chinese penjing sometimes are exaggerated to the point of being unnatural in appearance.

As I learn about international aquascaping, I see some of the same trends.


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## niko

Whoa! That information about how bonsai goes would make for a great article about aquascaping. The parallels are obvious. And if Kim adds some things we don't even suspect about composition in general the article will be a new step forward. Truly.

And a big filter opinion from me and we are beating this hobby down once and for all...

--Nikolay


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## Ekrindul

Michael said:


> Regarding the ADA judging of aquascapes, one must remember that the Japanese are obsessed with rules, categories, and classifications. This produces very similar styles among practitioners.


Don't unfairly leave the Dutch out of that complaint.


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## walterk

So "Aquascape Americana" is just hodge podge. :usa2:


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## niko

'Aquascape Americana' seems to emphasize the fact that the aquascaping style has roots in one's culture. Why is it that I never understood that? I somehow thought aquascaping is a universal thing - no boundaries, no limits. I guess it's hard to not have the roots you have.

I hope you can hear me say the last sentence above with an accent, haha!

Or as they say in Bulgaria "The pear never falls too far away from the pear tree."



--Nikolay


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## Michael

Ekrindul said:


> Don't unfairly leave the Dutch out of that complaint.


Actually, it is not a complaint, only an observation. In bonsai, if you carefully follow the Japanese rules, you will consistently produce very good trees. Very similar within a particular category, but very good. However, even the Japanese praise great bonsai that break the rules.

I really don't know much about the Dutch tradition. Can you recommend a good website on the subject?

Walter, I hope you don't mind that we have COMPLETELY hijacked your thread!


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## Ekrindul

Michael said:


> Actually, it is not a complaint, only an observation. In bonsai, if you carefully follow the Japanese rules, you will consistently produce very good trees. Very similar within a particular category, but very good. However, even the Japanese praise great bonsai that break the rules.
> 
> I really don't know much about the Dutch tradition. Can you recommend a good website on the subject?
> 
> Walter, I hope you don't mind that we have COMPLETELY hijacked your thread!


I was merely referring to their (NBAT) competition rules. Their website is not available in English, however, here is a link to a translated version of it: http://translate.google.com/transla...=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.nbat.nl/&sl=auto&tl=en


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## Michael

niko said:


> 'Aquascape Americana' seems to emphasize the fact that the aquascaping style has roots in one's culture. Why is it that I never understood that? I somehow thought aquascaping is a universal thing - no boundaries, no limits. I guess it's hard to not have the roots you have.


Absolutely! When Americans first learned bonsai from the Japanese, they had a very difficult time just mastering the bizarre horticulture involved. The aesthetics were even more elusive; try as we might to imitate the Japanese, there were elements of aesthetics that just did not translate. The Japanese absorbed a whole set of aesthetic principals from their culture during childhood that they brought to bonsai. Not understanding these principals, our American bonsai often looked weak or insipid.

Serious American students went to Japan, or studied under the few Japanese-trained masters in this country. As their proficiency and knowledge of Japanese culture grew, their bonsai approached the quality of the Japanese until the best American bonsai reached the level of the Japanese.

Since then, some of these Americans have begun to create bonsai that are the technical equals of the Japanese, but come from a different aesthetic. The Americans began to draw on the natural environment and culture of this country to produce bonsai that have a distinctly American style.

An interesting point about this is while Japan has a homogenous culture and environment, America does not. I studied with an American bonsai master who is from New England. Many of his trees are inspired by the boreal forests of his home, especially the unique environment of peat bogs. When he worked with his Texas students, he encouraged us to use native trees and draw from natural areas of Texas. Our bonsai looked very different from his. This is not what would be expected or allowed if studying under a Japanese teacher.


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## niko

This is getting too good!

Michael,

I think you will agree - there will be a lot of interest in an article with explanations and images of the things you are talking about above. It certainly clarifies what I saw on that video of the ADA aquascape contest judging. What appeared to me like a flat out restrictive and submission enforcing environment was just a manifestation of the ways an entire culture is. I think everybody needs to see that video AND read the article about Bonsai that you need to write.

This hobby really needs knowledge like that. Once again - black on white. Not scattered on a 100 websites and burried in different mislabeled threads in different forums.

I think we will all agree.

--Nikolay


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## AquaBarren

Hmmm, in from NJ. Maybe my next hardscape should be a machine gun in a violin case.


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## walterk

> Walter, I hope you don't mind that we have COMPLETELY hijacked your thread!


Pfft. Oh well, just go with it. Six months from now I will reclaim it.

Meantime, I'll watch (and contribute a bit) opcorn:


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## niko

AquaBarren,

Some of these "Americana" aquascapes have actually been done. 

Somewhere around year 2000 Jeffrey Skilling, one of the Enron top executives had a tank containing rocks and empty beer bottles. The idea was to depict a Texas creek or something. I don't know where I saw that tank, must have been on some kind of forum. I also think ADG did that tank.

Between that never-before-explored frontier and T. Amano walking into the lobby of an American hotel and facing an ugly saltwater tank with a single dead damsel draped dead center on the rocks I think we do have a potential for building something new and impressive. It's easy - we only need to head in the opposite direction.

--Nikolay


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## walterk

The first time I heard "American style planted aquarium" came from Diana Walstad. It was either in an article she wrote for Aquarium Fish Magazine or TFH and/or when I talked to her a few years back in Dallas.

Here's an update on the tank:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/?action=view&current=AquariumHardscape2.mp4

I think I need a little more rock on the left, but not much. I don't want absolute balance. I've placed a single rock under the highest point of driftwood. That represents the focal point, so hopefully the eye is attracted to that place. I decided to use a single stone. Maybe this is a little "dada" type art in a way (in reaction to certain "rules" of aquascaping. :badgrin: )

Next, I need to get the right mixture of sand to get close to the color of Northwest beach sand.


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## Michael

It looks really good! Instead of adding more rock on the left, you could remove some on the extreme right, and let more substrate show on that side.

What did Walstad mean by "American style"? I've always thought of her method as a horticultural/fish keeping technique, rather than an aesthetic style. You could create any style aquascape with her method.


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## walterk

Thanks for that thought (removing some rock from the right). I'll ponder that. I have more to the right in order to make an "upstream" portion -- almost bear. I wanted more driftwood "downstream," to the center and left.

It has been quite some time since I read/heard that from Walstad. If I were to stretch my memory (and paraphrase), there is "a more informal structure" to the American style.

Playing around with this, right now, I'd like to achieve a natural look within the theme of an estuary in the PacNW, which is a mixture of stream, beach, ocean, etc...but have a single focal point using "The Golden Triangle."

I'm hopeful that a small amount of sand on the bottom -- perhaps 1/2" -- will fill in the gaps among the rocks nicely.

I'm wondering if Subwassertang would be a good plant to use for "seaweed" in the extreme left? Also, a "floating enclosure" with floating plants (Phyllanthus fluitans or Amazon Frogbit) being used to represent a "lake" in the extreme right? I might be able to achieve this with a slice of bent rain gutter guard or fishing line with small suction cups.


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## walterk

In this pic, the top container has Pacific Northwest beach sand. The bottom container has a combination of 1/3rd beige and 2/3rds black Estes Marine Sand. I guess this is as close as I can get to the real thing. I think I might add a dusting of white sand to this, but just a little.


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## AquaBarren

Looks like a good match to me Walter. When it "dirties" up some of the extra contrast should subdue. You're putting a lot of work into this. Looking forward to the completed project.


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## NeonFlux

Really, really nice aquarium cabinet. Your friend is truly a generous person. Your cabinet makes mine look like nothing compared to yours.  Nice plan going.


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## fishyjoe24

AquaBarren said:


> Hmmm, in from NJ. Maybe my next hardscape should be a machine gun in a violin case.


HA HA HA.  I'd give you first place, ..


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## Tex Gal

So what's going on with your project?


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## walterk

Thanks for asking. The stand, driftwood, rocks sit there. I also have sand stored away in the drawers of the cabinet.

I had a double blast of financial setbacks. Things will be delayed further. I was quite depressed when I got the news. The project is on hold and sits in my office as a reminder of what might be someday.


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## AquaBarren

That's heartbreaking Walter. What do you still need? Maybe I have some idle components that you can use.


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## niko

Yes, I can give you 60" long Giesemann bulbs (2 bulbs) with individual reflectors and with the ballasts already wired. They are mounted on an aluminum pole and have watertight end caps. Just plug and play. 160 watts of the best aquarium light you can have at the moment. Used only for 2 days, virtually brand new. The 2 bulbs are mounted in such a way that cover a length of 72 inches. Your tank is 96 so there will be dark areas in both sides, but that's what I can give you. I will give you a timer for it too.

I can also give you a 5 lb CO2 setup with a double gauge and needle valve. Diffusor will be the $8 Elite filter.

Canister filter - if Jason is not using a huge canister filter I gave him he can give it to you I guess. It's 350 gph (actual flow is indeed 350 gph because of the good design and the fat hoses).

Let me know.

--Nikolay


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## fishyjoe24

I've got lots of t5 ho bulbs, 24 inch 24w
and 36 inch 39w if that helps out out. also have gravel, I also have some maxi jet power heads... not sure what else i got laying around that could help you out.


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## walterk

Thank you so very much for the generous offers. I really appreciate it. 

Unfortunately, I need the aquarium first, and I really have always had my heart set on an acrylic tank. I just have to wait.


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## walterk

So, in the meantime, I'm going to continue to dream. I mean, why not?!

I took this movie months ago. The only change I've made is on the left side. I've added rock that extends out to the branch that would touch the front glass.

Sorry, for the length of the video. I should have edited it:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/?action=view&current=AquariumHardscape2-1.mp4

I want something unique, that is relatively low maintenance. No CO2. Slower growing plants. (BTW, the pH out of the tap is about 7.6 - 7.8).

On the driftwood, I'm considering tying Christmas Moss, or Flame Moss, or Fissidens. Comments about the Fissidens? What have been the experiences of those in the club with this stuff? Positive? Negative?

I want to put a relatively thin layer of beige and black sand in the areas where there are no rocks, especially up front.

Between the rocks, I could: 1) use the same sand; 2) use Eco-Complete I have stored away from the old aquarium I broke down; 3) use nothing.

If I use nothing between the rocks: I could use anubias, java fern, subwassertang, or maybe even pennywort.

I'm intrigued by the pennywort that this fellow has:

http://bubblesaquarium.com/NewPlants/NewPlants_Hydrocotyle_sp_Popup.htm

Does anyone in the club have this variety?


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## Tex Guy

walterk said:


> I'm intrigued by the pennywort that this fellow has:
> 
> http://bubblesaquarium.com/NewPlants/NewPlants_Hydrocotyle_sp_Popup.htm
> 
> Does anyone in the club have this variety?


Lots of folks in DFWAPC are growing this successfully.


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## walterk

Wow! This specific species (not the common varieties)? :clap2:


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## Tex Guy

walterk said:


> Wow! This specific species (not the common varieties)? :clap2:


Yep, I just threw out about a pound of it. Give me a couple of weeks and I can have plenty to share. As a matter of fact, you should come to the next DFWAPC meeting where I am sure you will find it.


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## walterk

Thanks! I will in time. I've got to focus right now on paying off a couple of loans. 

I will be back.


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## Tex Gal

Tex Guy said:


> Lots of folks in DFWAPC are growing this successfully.


Yes. It's Hydrocotyle tripartita. You will see it sold under the common name pennymarshweed. It's the newly popular Hydrocotyle. It is not Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides.


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## walterk

LOL! Funny, I've been gone from the club for over four years now after relocating out of the area, and I am SO behind the times.

I remember when I was among the first folks in the U.S. to receive some pellia (before even had a name). It was nice to know someone who was a wholesaler and involved in international shipping. 

Now, I'm pretty much a newbie again. Oh well. 

That plant looks perfect to to use as a fast growing variety for a new tank.

BTW, is that a pic of one of your tanks? ...Christmas Moss in the background of one of those pics, or another variety?


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## Tex Gal

Yes it was one of our tanks. The moss was weeping moss. We don't have that tank anymore.

Just so you don't feel bad, it's still not a common plant. It's pretty rare.


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## fishyjoe24

it's okay drinda got me with a test, and i've been in the club for a year, and before joining had a few plants and got some of the answers wrong.


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## walterk

*The Tank*

Well, I should dream some more...

I want an *acrylic aquarium*. Why? Primarily because I like the fact that I moved my acrylic 80 gal with me on countless moves over the span of twenty-eight years. (It developed a leak because of a "bump" on my last move though, and I decided not to attempt to repair it after nearly three decades). It would be a nightmare attempting to move an eight-foot glass tank. 

I want it *rimless* - no eurobracing. So the thickness for a 14" tall tank can be 1/2" or 3/4". With the lesser thickness -- depending upon where the water line is -- I'd be right on the boarder of stressing the tank too much. It would be much safer to go with the 3/4", but at a substantially increased cost.


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## walterk

The Filter:

On the one hand, I'd like the *Eheim 2080*, along with a 17mm lily pipe set, placed on one end of the aquarium. It is rated at 450 gph max, under ideal conditions.

Some Advantages: [Many say] Eheim has a great track record; media that supports biological filtration; will support the use of lily pipes; relatively easy to clean; quiet operation.

Possible drawbacks: Leakage/spills. This is will go into an office that I do not own. It has beautiful hardwood floors. Would likely place the canister inside of a bucket under the tank. My 46 bowfront is in in the office as well right now. I have an acrylic sheet under the stand to add protection. I have a HOB filter on the tank and no canister [Aqueon Quiet Flow 30]. This arrangement has worked well with no CO2 and low light.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind experimenting with something a little different. (I know I may take some heat for that here). I've entertained the thought of having a HOB placed on one end of this large aquarium, specifically the *Aqueon Quiet Flow 55 75*. It is rated at 400 gph max under ideal conditions, and only has one outlet instead of two (unlike most other larger HOBs), giving increased flow. I would take out the "wet dry attachments." May use a Filter Max Prefilter sponge but I'm not sure how much it would slow down the flow.

Some Advantages: Far less cost (less than $50.00); far less likelihood of accidents on the floor; SURPRISINGLY very quiet; will provide a good deal of surface agitation, which is a good thing in a tank that represents a river bed. (I am NOT planning on using CO2 supplementation. If I did, I would avoid this altogether).

Possible Drawbacks: Will likely clog quicker (but has bypasses); rated for lower flow than the Eheim; would have to keep the water level 1" below the top of the tank to avoid waterfall effect (or I could construct an acrylic piece that would prevent this altogether).


----------



## walterk

Also, on the tank, I want to use a reputable dealer, and not the "cheapest." Ideally, I would like to pick up the tank and save shipping, so A.G.E. in the DFW Metroplex has an advantage. I've had several email exchanges with a representative at A.G.E. and he said it could be done.


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## AquaBarren

Hi Walter. I had an Eheim 2076 pro 3e. Loved it. Great filter. The "e" features turned out to be a waste. The flow indicator was nice, but the other stuff was not worth the added expense. The Pro 3 in general though is a great filter - reliable, easy to maintain, quiet. the 2080 is a good deal when you get it with the media and inflow/outflow accessory kit. 

I wonder though if a tank configuration as your will be would benefit from two smaller filters rather than one mega-filter. You could place outflows with one on the end and the other at the midpoint, suction cupped to a brace if your tank has one. That would keep the stream flowing all the way through and avoid extra equipment.

Big + for the Pro 3s though. The best of Eheim. So why "had an Eheim 2076"? I changed solely for ease of maintenance. The only canister easier to maintain is the Fluval G series IME. My 84g, heavily planted tank dirtied mechanical filtration very quickly. Opening the canister frequently to change or clean mechanical media was getting old. The Gs have a simple mech cartridge that can be swapped in seconds, cleaned for reuse at your leisure and the canister doesn't have to be moved and opened. that is fast and easy, so I switched. Cartridges are expensive but are easily cleaned for reuse.

If I was starting over and had a cabinet with more space than my Osaka cabinet does, I think I'd go with a sump. Maint is still easy and you get a lot of options including how much power you want in your pump and any plumbing option you can imagine....


Anyway, back to the point of this post. Great filters the Pro 3s and the 2080 is a great one.


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## walterk

AquaBarren said:


> Hi Walter. I had an Eheim 2076 pro 3e. Loved it. Great filter. The "e" features turned out to be a waste. The flow indicator was nice, but the other stuff was not worth the added expense. The Pro 3 in general though is a great filter - reliable, easy to maintain, quiet. the 2080 is a good deal when you get it with the media and inflow/outflow accessory kit.


AquaBarren, thanks for chiming in on the Eheim! I'm glad your experiences have been positive (most have that I know of). The quiet factor is big for me. Reliability is as well. You've mentioned both.



> I wonder though if a tank configuration as yours will be would benefit from two smaller filters rather than one mega-filter. You could place outflows with one on the end and the other at the midpoint, suction cupped to a brace if your tank has one. That would keep the stream flowing all the way through and avoid extra equipment.


That's a very good thought. 8' is a long way to push water for a single pump (unless you've got a BIG pump below the tank. Too bad the Eheim 2080 has two INTAKES and only one outflow.  I've also thought about using a Hydor Koralia to supplement, either mid-way or in conjunction with the outflow of the lone filter.

Tonight though, I took a look in my 46 bowfront, which only has a single Aqueon QuietFlow 30 on it (200 GPH), and it looked like the flow was at least adequate. The tank is ~21" deep, and still the water had enough umph so that tetras had to swim against a mild current at the intake (at the end of the U flow of water). It is that way because of a lot of hardscape (lace rock with anubias). I have a "mountain piece" in the very middle of the tank that the flow moves around -- much different than having plants fill up most of the water column.



> Big + for the Pro 3s though. The best of Eheim. So why "had an Eheim 2076"? I changed solely for ease of maintenance. The only canister easier to maintain is the Fluval G series IME. My 84g, heavily planted tank dirtied mechanical filtration very quickly. Opening the canister frequently to change or clean mechanical media was getting old. The Gs have a simple mech cartridge that can be swapped in seconds, cleaned for reuse at your leisure and the canister doesn't have to be moved and opened. that is fast and easy, so I switched. Cartridges are expensive but are easily cleaned for reuse.


I owned a good Fluval once. I was pleased with it but I thought I could do better. Good to hear that the Eheim model has a quick swap out of cartridges. THAT would be a great time saver! 



> If I was starting over and had a cabinet with more space than my Osaka cabinet does, I think I'd go with a sump. Maint is still easy and you get a lot of options including how much power you want in your pump and any plumbing option you can imagine....


Yeah, I had a sump with my 80 gal. That was a good deal. Had my heater in there, as well as pH monitor (when I used CO2). This project has a custom made cabinet that has been made as a piece of furniture. The shelves below can be removed or adjusted in each of the three compartments, but the compartment walls are solid, so I'm somewhat limited. There are also drawers in the upper 1/3rd. With this puppy, I'm thinking of avoiding as much outside plumbing as possible. It would only take one accident for me to really regret it. The space is not mine, and it has hardwood floors. I had a number of "near-misses" with my old set up, and I need to avoid that this time around.



> Anyway, back to the point of this post. Great filters the Pro 3s and the 2080 is a great one.


Thanks for chiming in about the 2080. I will definitely keep that in mind! I like the options of what you can put in the "chambers" of the filter. I think I might be tempted to keep the coarse and fine pads in there and fill the remainder with biological media.

After thinking some more about this today, I believe that a single 400 GPH source would do the trick though. I keep on thinking in "traditional terms" here, but this is a shallow tank, albeit long. There is hardscape -- manzanita wood and rounded river stones -- but the way it is configured, there should be minimum "drag" for water flow. I'm betting that because the tank will only have 12" of water in it, that a single filter will more than do the job.

I want a U shaped flow, where water is pumped in on the surface, runs the length of the tank on top, hits the end, and curls back with a lower return to the intake. I want to achieve a happy medium between having enough power to take up particulates, and not too much flow, in order to keep any "bait" from getting blown away in a raging, underwater storm.


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## fishyjoe24

I like eheims and my ecco 2234-36? forgot which one i have. is a good filter.

i like the ideal of two smaller filters on a bigger tank, because if one looses power or malfunctions you still will have the other one going this is what i did on my 225. i ran 3 fluval 405's, then sold them. and got a fx5...


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## AquaBarren

Walter, there is a 2080 on eBay now. Maybe you can grab a bargain.


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## walterk

Thanks for the heads up.

In spite of a good deal, I'm not going to jump at any equipment yet.

The only thing I've purchased as of late (Saturday) was more manzanita branches. Should arrive in a couple of days! 

I will purchase the tank when I'm in the clear financially. The exact thickness of the acrylic will be determined at that time based upon what I can afford (all 1/2", or some or all at 3/4").

At that point, I'll make final selections as to filtration, lighting and plants.

In the meantime, I'll occasionally post my dreams here and drive myself and everyone else loopy in the process.


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## digital_gods

Eheims by far are my favorite canister filters. I highly suggest for you to keep on hand a extra impeller shaft on hand unless your running multiple filters on the tank. The impeller shafts are ceramic/glass rods that can break. I buy my supplies from The Aquarium Store - eBay store located in Austin. Great prices and quick shipping. The 2028 is my largest Eheim I own. The Classic series is rock solid in quality, performance and operation. The Ecco series, I'm not fond of because I've burned up two motors. They cannot function well at being tank level as where the 2213 classics can. I suggest get two 2217 running on your tank. You will have redundancy in case of failure and plenty of cleaning power.

My next favorite canister filter is Rena XP filters. Steel impeller shaft. Very easy to use once you learn the trick to priming them.

I'm NOT a fan of the Fluval series. They are difficult to prime, has ceramic shaft, the fluid dynamics of how the water travels through the filter causes a lot of resistance which leads to poor output. Now Hagan does manufacture the best hang on back filter, Aquaclear Filters.


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## walterk

AquaBarren said:


> Walter, there is a 2080 on eBay now. Maybe you can grab a bargain.


Well, I got to thinking about what you said. Yeah, I could wait, but if I found a sweet deal..._why not now?_ So, I went on eBay and found a person that wished to sell their four month old Eheim professional 3 2080. It was advertized as "like new." Turned out to be too powerful for their aquarium. Tubing is not included. I could not contact the seller in time to see if the media was included. I was fortunate to have the winning bid for a great price. Now, I hope it comes as advertized. The seller is in the Fort Worth area.

AquaBarren, thanks for the idea. I appreciate it.


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## AquaBarren

Piece of cake Walter. If I just stumble into a custom plexiglass aquarium your size, I'll let you know.

When you find a good deal on something of quality, used, in like new condition, you can usually get your money back. I drove a 1991, like new Alfa Romeo Spider for years and sold it for exactly what I paid later. 

If you go a different route, someone will take that 2080 off your hands.


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## walterk

LOL! Good luck on finding that aquarium for me. 

The filter should arrive in the next couple of days. I paid $184.00 plus $30.00 shipping. I'm happy that my aquarium stand is so high. I should be able to fit this huge filter inside the stand. I will need to get some tubing and decide how to route this to the (future) tank. 

When the stand was built, I had holes placed in the back panel. I had no idea what kind of filtration I was going to use so I made an educated guess. Now that I've chosen the filter, I think I'd like to route the tubing through a side panel instead. If I can do this, it will really cut down on the amount of hose from the filter to the tank. I know it sounds laughable, but the total length of each hose could be 2 - 2.5', which is pretty amazing in my book. :supz:


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## walterk

The filter is HUGE (23 1/2" tall)!!! Funny thing is, that it looks quite normal when placed inside the very tall cabinet stand. I plan on cutting some holes out on the side for tubing. I took out a shelf in order to place it in there.


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## Tex Gal

You're on your way.....  I think it's a great idea to use two filters. I do have two intakes and returns but you can plumb it as one. There are so many upsides!


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## walterk

Thanks, Tex Gal. You speak words of wisdom about using two filters.

I'm open to ideas on how to do this with an 8' tank that is very shallow. The flow dynamics will be a lot different than most aquariums.

I'd like to keep the flow as laminar as possible.

Two considerations in this: 

I'm thinking about making a moss wall for the back.

I have yet to determine the thickness of the acrylic. 
I was told that if I want rimless, I could go with 1/2" acrylic, but the maximum fill would be @ 12". Anything over that, it has to be 3/4"
If I go with eurobracing on the top, 1/2" would be fine.
If I wanted to use a hydor koralia internal circulation pump, the max thickness of acrylic would be 1/2"


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## AquaBarren

It would kill me to cut holes in the side of that great stand. Wait and see. You can always cut, but never replace.


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## walterk

For right now, I reversed the driftwood. The flow is now from left to right, and I placed the filter on the left, outside of the cabinet stand, where it is out of the way and far less visible. If I keep it this way there will be no need to make holes in the cabinet stand.

I'd decided to put feelers out there to acrylic aquarium manufacturers. I stated I wanted a rimless tank and gave the measurements. Both are reputable companies.

AGE:


> We can make the aquarium out of either ½" or ¾" acrylic.. amount of deflection on the long panels is the different of what you can "live with" .. part depends on the water height you'll have.. 2-3" lower than the top edge of the acrylic.. ½" is just about as good as ¾"&#8230; any taller, there is more deflection.. the cost difference between the two is also large.. we will need to use a different bonding system for ¾".. a two part structural adhesive..


EnvisionAcrylics:


> You're not going to get a rimless acrylic tank in that size that doesn't bow badly until you go with something much thicker than 3/4". Perhaps 1.25" or thicker. 1/2" or 3/4" simply will not suffice for a tank of this size in my experience.


What to believe? I don't think there would be any way that I could afford 1.25" acrylic unless I won the lottery.

Perhaps rimless is too far of a stretch? I would like to run the filters on one end of the aquarium, and not from the back. If I eurobrace, I wonder if it could be cut this way? I guess there's only one way to find out.

I think I need to find people who have aquariums close to the one I'd like to have made and take notes.


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## niko

Unless something has changed since the original post I don't understand why not look for a glass tank. 

96" long X 14" wide X 13" high - a 13" tall tank is not going to need a very thick glass despite the 9 ft. length of the glass.

First person that comes to mind to ask is Jim - he knows people that have been making glass tanks for many years.

--Nikolay


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## fishyjoe24

glass is heavy though... i remember getting my 240 8x2x2 in the house. it took me, my brother, my brothers ex-friend, and the friends ex-wife to move it in to the house. what about can't think of the name i will have to ask the saltwater guys the company names is. they are local and will build custom rimless tanks.


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## walterk

The cabinet stand is ideally made for 96" X 18" footprint.

I'd like for a 12" water level, with a total height ~14".

In the past, I favored acrylic (my 80 gal) because I've lifted it myself over the course of uncounted moves. I would imagine that the 8' acrylic tank, two folks could do the same.

I would think that if the aquarium is made out of glass, it might be 1/2" to 3/4"? That would be extremely heavy. 

I'm willing to listen to all options as this point in time, but the weight of the thing is a concern.

Sorry, Niko, even thought I'm still an official member of the club, I'm unaware of who "Jim" is. Is he a member?

Thanks, Fishyjoe24, the more folks I can talk to about this, the better.


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## fishyjoe24

you're welcome.... my 120 4x2x2 is acrylic and i can get one end of it, and another person on the other and carry it no problem... so it would be possible to do a 8 foot acrylic tank.


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## walterk

That's perfect!!! I really needed to talk to someone that has a long acrylic tank!

Does it have eurobracing or is it rimless? What is the thickness of the acrylic (sides and top -- there can be a difference)? Are you pleased with the visual effect (not too much "deflection" --distortion)?


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## fishyjoe24

walterk said:


> That's perfect!!! I really needed to talk to someone that has a long acrylic tank!
> 
> Does it have eurobracing or is it rimless? What is the thickness of the acrylic (sides and top -- there can be a difference)? Are you pleased with the visual effect (not too much "deflection" --distortion)?


it's around 1/2 it was a friends tank, and then we traded... it didn't have much deflection... it is braced at the top.. it's a nice tank, but the live rock(saltwater) scratched up the sides and front... scratches are hard to get out in acrylic.


----------



## walterk

I ordered some Peacock Moss from someone on the APC (who lives in NY). It arrived, and I attached it to driftwood in my 46 bow front. I will be growing it out in the next few months in anticipation of the larger tank.


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## walterk

Well, one down! Half way home overcoming my financial setbacks. :supz:

In the meantime, I have purchased two Ikea Tertial work lamps and a PAR38 bulb. I wanted to see how this looks.

If I go in this direction, I'd like 8 or 9 of these over the tank. I'm going to contact the person that built me the stand and see what he would recommend on how to make this work -- to build an add on to the stand, or a separate structure to attach the lighting.

What I like about these, is the ability to manipulate the direction and focus of the lighting. Most aquarium lighting will simulate sunlight at noon, with it directly overhead.

One of the most impressive things I have ever seen was the morning sun and its angle going into a crystal clear lake. I was in my one-man raft fishing. About 20 yards away, I could see the logs on the bottom of the lake and the fish. The angle of the light made it so beautiful!

Here's what two of them look like over a very small tank (found this on the Net. They aren't mine):










Here's another view. They are solidly built. I took off the "bell" that surrounds the bulb to help keep it cool and to allow for greater broadcast of the light:


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## fishyjoe24

if you haven't got your tank yet talk to Planet Aquarium good custom tank build place in dallas.
Planet Aquarium.
8290 Moberly Ln
Dallas, TX 75227
(214) 275-3938


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## walterk

Thanks, Fishjoe24. I will add that company to the list. Tenecor is no longer in business. I have AGE (Acrylic and Glass Exhibits, out of Dallas) on my short list. I emailed a company out of Oregon, Envision Acrylics. I was _really _ impressed with the fellow's expertise, but the cost of shipping is an issue. He recommended that I use at least 1.25" acrylic for the sides if it is to be rimless. If braced, 1". I'm not crossing him off the list yet. Once I have the money in hand, then it will be time to make the decision. That should be mid to late year. I need to chip away at my final financial setback and be patient. This has actually been an advantage for me because I've had plenty of time to think things through and become absolutely sure on issues (such as lighting). The tank I'm dreaming of will be the most expensive venture I've ever taken in my hobby to date, so I want the right person to build the tank.

I used a custom build acrylic aquarium company out of Seattle years ago. The 90 gallon tank they produced for me failed after about 6 months. The back panel gave out while I was away on business. The tank was level. Fortunately, my wife was able to scoop out most of the fish and transfer them to other aquariums. I discovered, all too late, that I wasn't the only one that had this happen to them. The company eventually went out of business. No surprise.

I love the idea of rimless, but I'm wondering how much evaporation will occur as opposed to if it is partially covered? Will the water in the aquarium be cooler if it is not covered and have less evaporation?

What can you tell me about Planet Aquarium? I'm sure they are great if you recommend them, but I just need to be sure.


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## walterk

Yesterday, I set up the two Ikea Tertial work lamps on the stand. Right now, the back lip will support them as long as there is no aquarium on top. As I mentioned, some sort of extension will need to be built on the top back of the stand for them.

I attached a 17 watt PAR38 bulb (6500K, 45-degree) to one of the lamps. The bulb is quite heavy, so I was curious to see if the lamp could handle the weight. In most positions, it could. The only problem I encountered, was when the lamp was nearly fully extended. If I needed to place one or all of the lamps in this position, I would need something like a smaller version of a "Lincoln log" inbetween the two rods in the middle section for it to hold that position.

One concern I had with using individual lamps, was a "spotlight effect." I want a more even coverage. I believe I can space the lamps in such as way as to avoid some of this. Not entirely though (please read on). I need at least 8 lamps.

I really like what these lamps can do. I can adjust not only the height but also the angle of each individual light. If I don't like what I've got, I can change things up. There are three large pieces of driftwood in the tank. A cluster of lights will focus upon each. I will experiment on the height and angle of each light to suit the needs of the plants on the wood and for aesthetics.

I'm going to purchase a 60-degree bulb and make a comparison before I purchase a set.

The set of bulbs will likely be purchased when the tank is ready. Technology may change in the meanwhile. 

I ordered 6 more of the lamps. They should arrive something this week.


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## Tex Gal

Well at least no one can say that you haven't done your research! It's gonna be fantastic when you get it all together.


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## walterk

Thanks! I hope so! \\/


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## Michael

I use that same fixture over a 10 gallon with a spiral compact fluorescent in it. It works very well, with about 60 PAR at the substrate with the lamp 6" above the water.


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## AquaBarren

If i hit the lottery I'm sending you money Walter. I can't stand the anticipation any longer!


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## walterk

Thanks, AB. Buy a lucky ticket.

Or, perhaps just continue to root me on.

:cheer2:


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## fishyjoe24

I won 4 dollars on a 1 dollar scratch off is that helps you out?


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## walterk

It's a beginning. :clap2:


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## walterk

I'm now going to begin saving for the tank!!!

In the meanwhile, I need have to have someone add an extension to the top back to more firmly secure the lighting fixtures.

I had a single bulb that I ordered months ago just to try out over my other tank. In this pic, I have it in one of the lamps. It is a PAR38 LED with 45 degree beam angle, 17 watt. It's too bright and the beam is too concentrated.

After fiddling with it for a while, I've learned a lot. I'm going to next order a single PAR30 bulb with 60 or 80 degree beam angle. It could be 10 watts or so. The tank is to be shallow, and plants will primarily be mosses, so I don't need that much. The tank already receives a good amount of ambient light.

Ideally, I would have liked the tank not to have a background, but the lamp stands are a problem. I'm going to try something different and see where it goes. I found a woman who is a quilter extraordinaire who specializes in dying cloth in a gradient pattern. I commissioned her to do a 9' long "sky blue" gradient pattern. I've draped it on the lamp stands for now just to get some perspective. If it doesn't work out, I'll have the ladies at my church make it into a quilt to give to folks in need.

The darker portion of the cloth is where the focal point of the tank will be. There is a single rock there with no driftwood. The angle that this pic was taken is misleading. The focal point of the 96" tank will be at 60" - 36".


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## walterk

PAR bulbs are expensive. I've found one that looks very different than the others (including the one I'm trying out).

Here it is:

http://www.bulbs.com/espec.aspx?ID=15903&RefId=376

http://www.arraylighting.com/DL/ITL_%20AE26R3086560.pdf

I like everything about them except that the bulb may need more red. CREE might be the only way to go?

The 5,500k - 6,500k version of this bulb looks better:

http://www.dhgate.com/e27-par38-cree-led-bulb-dimmable-18w-110v/p-ff80808135c891770135ce35627d25a0.html


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## walterk

I feel like I'm flying solo on the lighting part of this. I live in Central Texas and away from monthly meeting of the DFWAPC. I don't have a chance to compare notes with others on these issues and am instead relying upon input on this forum and one other (no responses from the other). I miss the comraderie and sharing of information from those meetings long past.

Thankfully, the internet (overall) has been a Godsend on gathering information as well, but it is a challenge to sort through opinions. I get the sense that the vast majority of us are feeling our way in the dark on lighting issues with LEDs being newly explored and older, more reliable types of lighting, being eventually phased out.

I suppose I'm going to make my share of mistakes along the way in this project. I guess this is okay because it is how we learn. Unfortunately, with such a large aquarium, each of these lessons will cost me $$$. Since I've been dreaming about this tank for basically most of my life, I really don't mind though. It's all part of the journey. On the other hand, I've done so much tinkering, and planning, and research on this over the years, that I've become supersaturated with it all. I now have a window of financial opportunity to purchase the tank in the summer months.

Right now, lighting issues are my concentration though.

I've purchased some relatively inexpensive LEDs in a lot of 10 from China. They should arrive in a few days. The chips are genuine CREE. The specs on bulbs from sites like what is linked below are frustrating to deal with because there will be conflicting information on the same page. Here's what I ordered (specifically e26, 110V, 5500-6500K, 60 degree:

http://www.dhgate.com/10pcs-lot-high-power-par20-cree-led-bulb/p-ff808081302a1f95013044bdab6d2ade.html

I am also going to order some CFLs:

https://1000bulbs.com/product/6840/FC09-MS65.html

The end product might include both types of bulbs or perhaps just one.

I've also ordered two more Ikea lamps, so I will have 10 now.

As far as lighting goes, I'm treating the aquarium loosely as a series of 10 gallon tanks that will house low light plants.


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## Tex Gal

Walter, we will be going to Planet Aquarium Tanks MFG field trip in November. At that meeting they will be giving us 10-20% off any aquarium we order. They make custom aquariums. You can contact Jason (foreverknight) and ask him about the company. He is our club secretary. He has talked to them and seen their work. It might be a way for you to save $$$ on your build.


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## fishyjoe24

Tex Gal said:


> Walter, we will be going to Planet Aquarium Tanks MFG field trip in November. At that meeting they will be giving us 10-20% off any aquarium we order. They make custom aquariums. You can contact Jason (foreverknight) and ask him about the company. He is our club secretary. He has talked to them and seen their work. It might be a way for you to save $$$ on your build.


I've seen there work, and so has tanya(tanyaq2000).


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## walterk

Thanks! Once I have cash in hand, I will be exploring my options for tank manufacturers. I will add them to the list for sure.


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## walterk

I'm getting closer.

This is a rambling video on what I'd like. I will be presenting something like this for initial conversations with companies to get possible specs and quotes. I'm going to go through my LFS to check into a couple of them. One is out of Florida (that the LFS uses), and the other is AGE out of Dallas.

Concerning Planet Aquarium Tanks -- do you have to go through a retail store to purchase them? That would be okay with me. I could have my LFS look into three companies that way. I want to support him.

I can redo the video. Anything you would change or recommend? I like the idea of a U-shaped flow, and I hope that I can achieve this even with an extremely long tank. I know most folks "in the know" that make these aquariums press hard for bulkheads and input and output to be on separate ends of the tank.

Input and suggestions most welcome.


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## fishyjoe24

yes you would have to call the local fish stores, and they would get a price from mondo.


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## walterk

Does anyone have a contact phone number for them? The one I found on the web appears to be a fax line -- (214) 275-3938.


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## Tex Gal

walterk said:


> Does anyone have a contact phone number for them? The one I found on the web appears to be a fax line -- (214) 275-3938.


PM Foreverknight (Jason). He has been working with the company to see about our November meeting and the discount they will give our members.


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## walterk

Thanks! PM sent.


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## walterk

My LFS is getting prices from three different companies for the tank.

Today, I was able to obtain a PAR meter to compare my current lighting options. When I get the tank, I will do this again. I wonder how the measurements will differ when there is water involved?

There are three sections to the aquarium. In each I have a piece of driftwood. I've increasing the number of lamps from 8 to 10. I've clustered groups of lamps over each piece of wood.

One of my goals is to imitate nature. As such, I've wondered if some shade would add something -- like a cloud or tree branch would provide in a natural environment -- instead of even lighting throughout?

I want to attempt to place a focal point using "negative space" (shade) between the 2nd and 3rd pieces. Not sure just how this will look when everything is put together, or if it will even work, but I'm intrigued by the idea.










Today, I placed the PAR meter sensor at the far right side under 3 lamps. It was 18" below one of the lamps. It was centered under the middle lamp and not moved when bulbs were exchanged.










I used 3 different sets of bulbs for this test: 1) CREE LEDs, 9 watt (3X3), 6500K, 60 degree angle, DIM option; Spiral CFLs, 23 watt, 6500K; 3) Spiral CFLs, 14 watt, 5000K










When LED's were tested, I took the "bells" off of the lamps. They are not supposed to be enclosed.










When the CFL's were tested, I put them back on.










Here are the results. I'll do this again when I get the tank and have water in it. I'll post the results on the PAR reading sticky thread.

Spiral CFL's, 23 watt (with bell): 
1 bulb 29
2 bulbs 54
3 bulbs 76

Spiral CFL's, 14 watt (with bell):
1 bulb 20
2 bulbs 35
3 bulbs 46

CREE LED's, 9 watt, 60 degree, DIM option:
1 bulb 48
2 bulbs 57
3 bulbs 65


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## niko

I think you should use the LED. Recently I experimented with a single 1100 lumen LED light from Home Depot. I was looking for the shimmer underwater effect. With one bulb the shimmer was nothing to write home about, but it did penetrate 2 ft. of water very, very well and the plants did cast a definite shadow on the bottom. Using more bulbs will work better.

I don't think you should be concerned with the light spectrum of the LED. It will be bad for sure. But if you chose your plants right (mosses for example) you don't even need any light.

One thing you must avoid is a center brace on your new tank. It really messes up the look of the light under water if you use directional sources like LED or a halide.


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## walterk

niko said:


> I think you should use the LED. Recently I experimented with a single 1100 lumen LED light from Home Depot. I was looking for the shimmer underwater effect. With one bulb the shimmer was nothing to write home about, but it did penetrate 2 ft. of water very, very well and the plants did cast a definite shadow on the bottom. Using more bulbs will work better.


I'm going to split the bulbs to begin with. I want to see the results between the 23 watt spiral CFL's and the LED's. So, initially, 1/2 of the tank will be for each.



> I don't think you should be concerned with the light spectrum of the LED. It will be bad for sure. But if you chose your plants right (mosses for example) you don't even need any light.


Not enough red. Plenty of blue. I hope you are right.



> One thing you must avoid is a center brace on your new tank. It really messes up the look of the light under water if you use directional sources like LED or a halide.


I don't think I really have a choice on this. The thickness of the acrylic needed for a rimless will likely be cost prohibitive for me. The brace will be acrylic, so it won't be like the black plastic piece(s) that most glass tanks have. I can also adjust the lamps.

I'm wondering if I should have some sort of acrylic lids to partially close the top and prevent evaporation? The acrylic would block some light, but it would not be as bad as regular glass.

Niko, what is your opinion about filtration in such a long tank. Would you still go with a U-shaped flow?


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## fishyjoe24

the problem with leds is no 10,000k which is what the saltwater people need. the plant people will love them because they have 6,500k... also heard leds still have the color balance problem to work out.


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## walterk

The Kelvin temperature thing is a lot more complicated that I care to_ attempt _to elaborate on.  Two bulbs can be labeled as "6,500K" but be very different in the exact specs. So my 6,500K LEDs are not at all equal to the 6,500K CFLs. The CFLs are likely to grow plants better, I would think.

The LEDs I have are strong in the blue and very weak in red. It is my understanding that as LED bulbs age that they will shift even more to the blue.

_Red light is responsible for plant maturation, causing plants to grow tall. Blue light controls the growth of stems and leaves, causing plants to grow wide with fat stems and dark leaves. A combination of red and blue light produces the fullest, most robust plants.

Read more: Do Plants Grow Faster Under Certain Colors of Light? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_7710978_do-under-certain-colors-light.html#ixzz1rPcj8jtf
_

I know we are just talking about mosses here, but there is the possibility that I will branch out to use other plants in time.


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## walterk

Here's an interesting read that gives me hope though:

http://blog.extraplant.com/led_lighting.html


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## walterk

Planet Aquarium does not make acrylic aquariums. Makes sense since they are former Oceanic folks. My LFS has a quote from a company he deals with in George and he's also checking with A.G.E., out of Dallas.


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## fishyjoe24

what about marc who owns melevs reef. he does acrylic sumps, and works with acrylic might see if he could build you a tank...


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## walterk

Thanks, but I gave three company contacts to my LFS to get bids. That's what I'm going to have to go with.


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## Michael

"Spiral CFL's, 23 watt (with bell): 
1 bulb 29
2 bulbs 54
3 bulbs 76

Spiral CFL's, 14 watt (with bell):
1 bulb 20
2 bulbs 35
3 bulbs 46

CREE LED's, 9 watt, 60 degree, DIM option:
1 bulb 48
2 bulbs 57
3 bulbs 65"

I wonder why increasing the number of LED lamps gives much less increase in light than increasing the number of CFLs?

Using 3 23 watt CFLs gives a 260% increase over 1 23 watt. 3 LEDs only give a 135% increase over a single lamp. This seems counter-intuitive. I can understand why 3 lamps don't produce exactly 3 times as much light because of scatter and other inefficiencies. But why do 3 LEDs give realtively little improvement over 1?


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## walterk

I think the answer is that the LEDs have a more concentrated and focused beam.

The CFLs (in a bell) provide a greater overlap of light. When you turn on lamps 1 and 3, the space between them has a warm glow of light.

The LED bulbs are set at a 60 degree spread. If they were set to, say, 80 degrees, you would have I higher degree of the lights overlapping. When you turn on lamps 1 and 3, the space between them is pretty dark compared to the CLFs.

The CFLs give more of an even, "softer feel." You do not have the harsh shadows that you do with the intense LEDs. 

The bells provide for a lot of restrike for the CFLs, so the light must be exiting there at a lot more angles than the LEDs provide.

At this point in time, I'm not sure which I like better from an aesthetics viewpoint only. 

Once I get the tank, I'm going to have fun checking out the difference between the bulbs in shimmer, plant growth, etc. Should be interesting.


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## Michael

Thanks! I am a big fan of CFLs, but have not used LEDs. I will be very interested to learn your results.


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## walterk

Michael said:


> Thanks! I am a big fan of CFLs, but have not used LEDs. I will be very interested to learn your results.


Good to hear that you are a big fan of them. I might end up going in that direction in the end. I wanted to try the LEDs as well. We will see how this goes once it is all set up and the lights go through their paces with plants in the tank.


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## walterk

*Niko, You There?*

I'm getting a quote from A.G.E. today on the tank. Already have one from a company in Georgia. Again, Planet Aquarium was a no-go because they do not do acrylic.

The guy at A.G.E. warned me that because of the rise in petroleum, the acrylic will cost more. Just how much more I will find out. The quote from the guy in Georgia seemed reasonable, but shipping is a killer. In my thinking, he likely does not produce tanks in the same volume as A.G.E. and might have acrylic stockpiled (that will not be effected by the recent price increase). That said, I would be willing to pay a little more for the product that A.G.E. puts out.

Niko -- you _absolutely_ recommend a U-shape flow? This tank is very long at 8' and rather shallow at 12" of water. I'm going to push the water with a canister filter rated at ~440 gph in ~84 gallons (and perhaps also use a circulation pump). I know you promote even more filtration flow, but I'll have to address that later if I want to do so. I will have sand as a substrate and I don't want it to be pushed around too much.

The canister will be raised so that the tubing will be rather short. Sponge prefilters will be used. I plan on having medium-pieces of lava rock for biological filtration in most of the filter. I currently have these pieces in my 46 bowfront.

Holes will be drilled in the top bracing once I determine which company I'm going with and finalize the filtration configuration. Right now, I'm planning on having the U-shape flow.

Question for anyone: Concerning the dynamics of the flow in the tank, what might I expect?

There will be little obstruction, with streamlined driftwood and smooth rock. The tank is quite shallow. My thinking is that the turbulence will be greater in a shallow tank. What will happen when the water is pushed on the surfaced to the far end?

I think I will initially fill the tank with water (no driftwood, rocks, sand or plants), drop in some dye and observe the flow at a lower rate. Then I might increase the flow with small solid items and watch where they end up.


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## niko

Experimenting with a dye will not really help you if the tank has no decorations and especially no plants.

From what I heard/saw in the last few months from people that actually can show striking clean planted tanks the flow does not have to be U-shaped. Some of these guys even use a spraybar (max. turbulence). But everybody agrees on one thing - the plants must gently sway in the current. To me there are optimal ways to do everything and there are ways that work but are not optimal. If a dirt particle is floating endlessly in the tank and never makes it to the filter that is a problem (chaotic flow). A problem with a strong U-shaped flow could be the flow rate - it may be too high if you do not use an outflow that produces a wide and gentle powerful flow out.

Also please do read the article that I referred to the other day - the one about the Redfield ratio. Basically you must have N in abundance (best thing is if it comes from the substrate). Then the P becomes the start/stop button for everything. Keep the P about 0.1 and algae has very little chance to try something funky. Staged light plays a huge role in the stability of the tank. That is how ADA does it: P as a limitation factor + Infinite N supply + Staged light. Of course - it all needs to be done with proper maintenance (biofilter, water changes). I suggest reading about Redfield and stressed on the staged light schedule because they basically makes the decision about the water flow & pattern more or less secondary. Once again - if the plants move in the current you are fine.


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## walterk

niko said:


> Experimenting with a dye will not really help you if the tank has no decorations and especially no plants.


I understand what you are saying. Why observe something that will change as soon as you add things to the tank?

Still, by observing the flow without driftwood, rocks and plants, it allows you to plan accordingly. Once I see the flow, I can place the three pieces of driftwood.



> From what I heard/saw in the last few months from people that actually can show striking clean planted tanks the flow does not have to be U-shaped. Some of these guys even use a spraybar (max. turbulence). But everybody agrees on one thing - the plants must gently sway in the current. To me there are optimal ways to do everything and there are ways that work but are not optimal. If a dirt particle is floating endlessly in the tank and never makes it to the filter that is a problem (chaotic flow). A problem with a strong U-shaped flow could be the flow rate - it may be too high if you do not use an outflow that produces a wide and gentle powerful flow out.


Thanks. This helps.



> Also please do read the article that I referred to the other day - the one about the Redfield ratio. Basically you must have N in abundance (best thing is if it comes from the substrate). Then the P becomes the start/stop button for everything. Keep the P about 0.1 and algae has very little chance to try something funky. Staged light plays a huge role in the stability of the tank. That is how ADA does it: P as a limitation factor + Infinite N supply + Staged light. Of course - it all needs to be done with proper maintenance (biofilter, water changes). I suggest reading about Redfield and stressed on the staged light schedule because they basically makes the decision about the water flow & pattern more or less secondary. Once again - if the plants move in the current you are fine.


Great!


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## walterk

Ordering the tank from A.G.E. on Friday. Should arrive in 4 - 6 weeks.


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## Tex Gal

Pretty cool! We've all waited for this. I almost feel like it's my own tank! LOL


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## walterk

Thanks, Tex Gal!

Yes, my first post in this thread was dated 11-27-2010

...and I've been dreaming about a tank like this ever since I was a little kid. :bounce:


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## walterk

*Making Use Of My "Growout Tank"*

Growing Christmas Moss in my 46 Bowfont that I will transfer to the new tank. Also, I have an elevated bed of 1" diameter lava rock in there that I will remove and use in the canister filter. Finally, I've placed my two Filter Max III prefilters in there to have them collect good bacteria.


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## walterk

My LFS gave me an email today. The tank should be delivered in about a week! 

I placed acrylic sheets between the wood floor and the stand, shimmed the stand, cut pieces of foam insulation and placed them on top of the stand.


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## fishyjoe24

sounds awesome.. that is good news.


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## walterk

Talked to the owner of North Waco Tropical Fish today. He said it would be likely that my tank would be delivered on Thursday or Friday.

I don't know if the tie-dyed cloth will look good as a background. I might want to paint on a background before the tank is placed on top of the stand. I'm experimenting right now with latex paint to see if there is something that would go along with the "flow" of the tank's theme.

It might just end up looking crappy, but I'm taking a look at it anyway. I see so many folks just use a solid dark/light blue or black. The use of gradient colors seems either quite rare, or not done at all. I think a lot of Amanoesque tanks use lighting to achieve the gradient.

I have a sample piece of thin acrylic that I'm painting on using a Strie painting technique (also referred to as "Dragging"). I would rather not have a solid color, but I don't want it to look "freakish" either.


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## AquaBarren

Great news Walter. Can't wait.


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## walterk

@$%&*(*!!! :doh:

One of the pieces of Manzanita wood I ordered from Florida was host to several wood borers. I killed one, but there are others in my office, I suspect.

Monday, I will be calling an exterminator. I've also ordered some sodium borate. I will be mixing this 1:1 with water and brushing it onto bare portions of the wood on the aquarium stand. It should prevent any wood chewing insects from munching on that.

I'm really paranoid(?) about the damage that these things can do, and I'm not placing the tank on the stand until this issue is resolved. They lay eggs on or in the wood and can hatch out in months (or years) down the road.

Five pics:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/Beetle/?action=view&current=007.jpg

After doing some research, I think this might be a "Black Polycaon Beetle." Lesson learned. From now on, I will put driftwood in water after I receive it. I needed to drown these suckers.


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## HeyPK

Wood borers are usually fairly specific to the species of tree, if we are talking about long horned beetles, family Cerambycidae. What did these critters look like?


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## walterk

HeyPK said:


> Wood borers are usually fairly specific to the species of tree, if we are talking about long horned beetles, family Cerambycidae. What did these critters look like?


Click on the above link and view the 5 pics. By everything I've read, I think this is a Black Polycaon Beetle. The "shavings" are actually "a powder." (check), the hole is round and not oval (check), it is fairly large that you can poke a pencil down it (check), the critter is about 1" (check)...the inner jaws are red (not shown in pic, but check). Gotta be this critter.

I've found a wide range of opinions about what wood it is attracted to, how much damage it will cause (if any). I've consulted an online Entomologist (who should reply within three days), and will consult our local, professional "bug guy" tomorrow.

I've ordered the Borax and will apply it to the stand no matter what anyone says.  I need that piece of mind with all the weight it will be carrying.

This is exactly what it looked like right side up: http://www.corkyspest.com/wood_pests/blk_poly.html


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## HeyPK

Oops! didn't see your link to the pictures. It is a well established, native species in the west, and is not considered a serious pest of houses. See http://www.ent.orst.edu/urban/PDF%20Files/Powderpost_Beetles.pdf


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## walterk

Thank you for that information! It was most helpful.

I also received a reply from an Entomologist:

Entomology (Study of Bugs)/Answered Question
Expert: Ed Saugstad
Subject: Black Polycaon Beetle?

Answer: Dear Walter - This does indeed appear to be a black polycaon beetle, Polycaon stoutii (Coleoptera: Bostrichidae). However, as long as the wooden surfaces in your office are coated in some fashion (varnish, shellac, paint, etc.) they are not in danger if infestation by these beetles - female beetles first "taste" the wood to determine whether it contains enough starch and sugar to nourish their offspring, and if the wood surface is coated, they cannot taste it and will not lay eggs. And you are correct in believing that once the wood is placed in water that you should have no more problems with these beetles. Should any adult beetle be able to emerge before the wood becomes completely saturated, it will float to the surface where it can be scooped out and destroyed. See http://tinyurl.com/68hdv for more detailed control recommendations for wood-infesting beetles in general.

Hope this helps,
Saugy
__________________________________________________________________

Much of the stand is made of exposed plywood and pine on the inside, and there are large access holes in the back inside. My desk is made of oak. Inside of both - the wood is not stained/varnished. I'm going to apply the Borax solution just for my own peace of mind. Once it is treated, and it sinks into the wood, it will be good for years of protection.


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## walterk

Painted 1:1 Boracare and water solution onto all parts of the stand that are not stained. It will take 48 - 72 hours to dry. The aquarium will be delivered tomorrow afternoon. 

Is this really happening? :whoo:


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## walterk

TANK ARRIVED TONIGHT!!! 

I decided that the paint brush applied Boracare had sufficiently dried with the aid of a number of fans. I had moved it out of my office and into another room to do this. 

I placed acrylic sheets back on the hardwood floor in my office. Manged to get the stand back in there by myself and place it on top of the sheets. I shimmed the stand to get it level. I placed a styrofoam-like sheet of blue insulation on top of the stand. I set up the Ikea tertial work lamps on the back. That's it for today.

Tomorrow, I will have some help getting the tank on the stand...and then I will attach the background, add water and driftwood. 

If everything looks right, I will then add the Estes Marine Sand.

Once the sand settles, (some of it will float overnight) I'll add fish poo from my 46 gallon bowfront and get the Eheim up and running (using mostly 1" black lava rock from the other tank).


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## walterk

*Finally!!!*

Album: http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/My%20New%20Aquarium/?action=view&current=Tank6.jpg

Hooking up the Eheim tomorrow. Will wait for the driftwood to water log before I tie on Christmas moss. Not sure what else I will add at this point.

VERY happy!!!


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## Michael

The tank looks enormous, and beautiful! What type of lighting did you decide to use?


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## walterk

I purchased 10: 9W CREE LED E26 PAR30 DIM 6500K 60 diameter. I wanted the "shimmer." When I put on the Eheim 2080, with the spray bar, I hope to make the tank look more like a river bottom...and I hope the lights will grow plants. :wacko:


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## niko

The tank dimensions look amazing. Like out of a dream.

There was a single ADA aquascape in a tank about that size made somewhere around year 2001. It really looked endless.

Recently ADA made 2 huge tanks (everybody can see them on YouTube). They are not the best aquascapes because of the tanks' sizes. It seems that a tank size matches beautifully the plant sizes/details only up to a certain ratio. After that it becomes pretty much impossible to create a beautiful aquascape. The only large successful aquascape in the world is Amano's big home tank. 

Walter's tank is very promising as dimensions. Glad to hear you mean to make a river type aquascape. It would probably be best if you have a large school of tightly schooling fish too. 

About the filtration at this point: 
Don't entertain too many exotic thoughts. ADA has figured it out the best. Add a bunch of Activated Carbon to your filter and about 1/3 of biomedia. Over the course of the next 2-3 months gradually reduce the amount of carbon and add more biomedia to the point where you have only biomedia. A separate mechanical only filter (an HOB Magnum is the easiest to maintain and the cheapest) will only help if it is supplied with a micron pad that you rinse every day until you see that the pad doesn't really retain much fine dirt.

--Nikolay


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## walterk

Thanks, Niko. The tank and stand dimensions seem to go very well with each other. I'm having difficulty with the Eheim 2080 I purchased used off of Ebay. It has been sitting around for a few months in dry dock. Tonight I put it all together. When I turned it on, it rattled for a few moments and just stopped. I've had no prior experience with this filter line. I discovered that the impeller shaft had broken. I had ordered a spare and pulled it out. I placed it in...and it broke again. These things are EXPENSIVE. I guess I need to get a hold of someone who can supervise when I attempt this again. Don't know what else to do. I'm at a loss.


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## niko

Yes, I read your other thread about the Eheim shafts. All I can say is that it could be that you are not putting together the impeller assembly as you are supposed to. Specifically the shaft needs to be supported in 2 places (one each end). In many pumps when you clean the impeller and put everything back together it looks like the shaft is straight but actualy it is off on one of the ends. If the shaft is ceramic usually it breaks as soos as the impeller tries to spin. Hope this is the answer but I don't know.

A word of advice - if this Eheim 2080 has a small ball that shows you the flow rate remove it when you use the filter. The ball is supposed to show you when the filter gets clogged up - the flow rate decreses. But usualy you don't need it and it does reduce the flow a little.


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## AquaBarren

Unfortunate regarding the 2080 Walter. I do recall that replacing the impeller was a little fiddley compared to other brands. I had to deliberately follow the instructions or it would stick. 2080 has a lot of horsepower so I could see it snapping a sticky impeller. Wish I could remember. It wasn't difficult, just not intuitive. Ck the web.


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## walterk

Thank you, Niko, for the reply. I believe you are correct, and I think I may be missing a part.

BTW, the fellow who previously owned the filter used it for salt water. There are small salt crystals on the inside. I rinsed it well, but a lot of it remains. There is no salt residue on the walls housing the impeller assembly, however.

Here's a pic of the assembly for the impeller. It lacks the impeller, obviously. What I'm holding, in the linked picture, I suspect, is a combination of:

7428530 Pump Cover W/ Sealing ring
7255058 [Gasket]

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/Eheim%202080/?action=view&current=Eheim2080.jpg

What I believe I'm missing is:

7342358 [Pump Cover Locking Ring]

http://parts.eheim.com/display_product.php?pid=2080

I've been checking around on the internet. No one in the U.S. seems to have it currently in stock. Looks like a special order from over the pond.


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## AquaBarren

http://www.theaquaticdepot.com/7342350.html


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## walterk

Thanks for the find, AquaBaron. Didn't think I could find one stateside.

I ended up ordering it from trilbytropicals.com (along with two shafts). They were in the process of making their order to Eheim, so I piggybacked on them for the goods (but will have mine sent from the source to my home). 

In the meantime, I have an Aqueon 30 hooked up to the tank. It runs half that tank, but it is good enough for now. Only one side of the tank has a lip thin enough for it. I should have designed it to have both ends like that...oh well.

BTW, I give A.G.E. a "B" on their workmanship. Honestly, I expected a better product for the price I paid. There are a couple of larger seam bubbles, but they are nothing that would cause me great concern, and there is an issue with the top left front of the aquarium. The acrylic is a little misshaped. Nothing that is greatly out of line, but I expected better.


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## AquaBarren

Was divine intervention Walter. I just entered Eheim impeller at google and it was on the first page. You are meant to complete this project.


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## walterk

After reading what you posted above, I will be a little antsy about putting in the new impeller. I've ordered two impeller shafts. I got to get one right. out:

Hopefully, with the additional part, it will be a good thing.


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## walterk

Niko, I am absolutely with you about having a tightly schooling fish in the tank. Even though it is a "common fish," I like to color, heartiness, longevity, and schooling pattern of the Bloodfin Tetra. I had originally planned on having a big group of Rummynose in there, but I changed my mind. The Bloodfins school tighter when "threatened."

This is a "River Tank," or "Estuary" and my intent was to take certainly elements of where I grew up -- in Washington, in the Pacific Northwest -- and translate this into the aquarium. I did originally have the thought of this being an estuary -- a "convergence zone" of all of the above.

So I wanted mossy wood to represent the rainforest trees:

http://johnchaophoto.photoshelter.com/image/I0000tIiu96EtgVA

http://favim.com/image/157831/

River rock:

http://www.parks.wa.gov/parks/images/4500123.jpg

and beach sand:

http://www.bergstromphoto.net/Travel/Western-Washington-State/South-Beaches-32210/AMS7258-Edit-1/826185981_PXRZ5-M.jpg

The fish? In the estuary and river, spawning salmon, so something "salmon-shaped and some red coloration (thus, the Bloodfins):

http://www.hatchmag.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/sockeye.jpg

I was also thinking about accent plants that could be attached to the driftwood or rocks that could represent ferns:

http://www.floridaaquatic.com/aquarium_plant_pogostemon_helferi.html


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## AquaBarren

How about the Rainbow Shiner? It's a US native, Alabama, not Washington though, a river species and red, especially males in breeding colors.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3623








.









Sorry. Your tank, but once you said "spawning salmon...red...".


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## Michael

Walter, I'm following your aesthetic choices with great interest. Long tanks pose compositional difficulties, which is why one usually sees highly developed designs in aquaria with a closer ratio of length to height. You may have solved these!

Will your beach sand be dark as in the photo? What substrate are you planning to use?


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## walterk

AquaBarron -- that is an excellent and interesting choice! For now, I'm going with the Bloodfins, but for future consideration, yes.

Michael -- I had too much time on my hands planning for this tank -- literally years. I overthought it and overthought it. 

I love Amano's work, so I eventually settled on three pieces of Manzanita wood. (Like Amano would use three or five rocks in his early works - with one big, "Mother rock" and a more distantly placed "child").

Also, I used the "Golden Triangle." I commissioned the background to be made by a gal who specializes in gradient dyes in cloth to be used in quilting. Her name is Vicki Welsh. I had her make a gradient pattern on a 9' cloth going from light to very dark to very light blue. The darkest point in the cloth is the point of the "Golden Triangle," at that place, I put a single, solitary rock in the sand, and at that place is a distinct separation between Mom-Pop driftwood and the "child."

Here is what inspired me to commission Vicki:

http://www.etsy.com/listing/86801537/hand-dyed-fabric-gradient-blue-sky

If this background didn't work out, I had plans to create a Striae paint brushed background directly on the back of the tank (at considerable risk). It had to be perfect the first and only time. If I ever get another aquarium, I plan on doing this.

I got a "color" sheet with 6 colors on it from a paint store. I mixed a glaze with the acrylic paint that was the darkest that I wanted to use, applied it to a sample piece of thin scrap acrylic. Painted on and then followed with a Striae brush using straight, precise strokes. I let that dry and then applied a paint two shades lighter. The effect is that it looks like striped stone. If you play with that -- use the same dark stripes, but have three lighter background shades, from top to bottom, it might create an interesting pattern giving a sense of depth.

Some sloppy samples: The top example is more of a wavy brush stroke using a regular brush to apply the clear glaze-paint mixture. The bottom example is using a striae brush and more of a straight line. I favor using a straight line, and now have a 20" striae brush if and when I need it.

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a1/Joe_L/Striae%20Aquarium%20Background/?action=view&current=2012-06-19111531.jpg

I've seen so many folks talk about a gradient background and the advice given is, unless you are a professional artist, don't try it. You will just create a mess and it won't look good. I tried the above with two colors. I guess it is a person thing, but I liked it. For some, I would imagine, it would look too artificial. It is, however, another option to the flat painted background, for those that might like that sort of thing.

I took one look at the cloth background, once it was attached to the tank, and decided I loved it. No need for the paint.

Amano also has said that long tanks may have more than one focal point, so the Mother driftwood will have it's tip touching the surface. So one point will be up, and the other (the lone rock) is down.

I have a jar on my desk that has PacNW beach sand. It is not the blackest variety. In order to achieve a close match, I combined Estes Marine Sand (it is FW safe). I went 3/4 black + 1/4 beige. The black tends to clump and float the first few days, but when it settles, it will mix with the rest and it will be a close approximation to the real deal.

The river rock, I picked up at a local nursery that also does landscaping. The flatter ones go near the front, and those that have slightly more height will go further back, giving more depth.


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## AquaBarren

Lol. They're on my "some day" list too Walter.


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## walterk

Kudos to the folks at trilbytropicals.com (Toledo, Ohio) for getting me the Eheim part I needed in 3 days. Thank you! Shipping was $8.00 through USPS. Excellent customer service!

I attached the part (along with a new impeller shaft) and the filter works great! Made me a little ticked that the part may have not been included when I won it on eBay, but I'm over that now.

I'm using only two small sections of spray bar for outflow. On the two intakes I have Filter-Max III's for prefilter. In the canister itself, I have 2 fine filter pads, 1 course filter pad, and 2 trays of 1" lava rock.

I'm pleasantly surprised that it CAN push water the entire length of the aquarium on 1/2 speed. Full speed is even better. 

The tank has gobs of floating plants in there right now, which has slowed the return flow from the far end of the tank, but once things get more stable and they are removed, the flow should be great.

I have test fish in there right now: 14 Bloodfins, 14 Scissortails, and odds and ends. The Bloodfins have schooled tightly once the current increased. They look very comfortable in the current. There are pockets where the flow is far more gentle, so they aren't always battling with the current. 

The Scissortails need more bulk to do better. They are on the thin and small side right now. For the most part, they avoid the current altogether.

One piece of Manzanita wood is now waterlogged so I will be tying moss to it tomorrow. Eventually, I want to configure the plants, driftwood and rock so that there is little obstruction for the flow of water. Most the the driftwood will be in the middle portion, away from the front and back glass. The water should flow around them.

I will likely be adding a circulation pump on the far side, but I plan on having it set to a slower speed for the sake of the fish.

I plan on running the canister full speed during the day and 1/2 speed when I leave the office for the day.


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## Michael

I'm also a fan of Trilby Tropicals!


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## walterk

Today I siphoned out some sand while making a partial water change. The depth will now only be 1/4". 

I also ordered a Tunze Nano Cleaner to take care of surface scum that collects in the far end of the tank. 

2 of 3 pieces of Manzanita driftwood have waterlogged. The larger piece will take another week or two. Moss tips show growth. 

Will investigate adding other varieties of plants.

Two additional work lamps arrived. I have them set up and awaiting additional LED bulbs.


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## walterk

Received the Tunze Nano FW Skimmer today. Hooked it up quickly (not attached quite right when I took the initial pics), then rushed off to dinner. After I returned, in about an hour, the surface scum was nearly all gone.



Going to fiddle around with the flow rates of my Eheim and Tunze tomorrow when I make a water change. I want a good current, but I don't want to blow the bait away.

I have a dozen Corydoras sterbai on order from Florida and they should be arriving at my LFS tomorrow. For the time being, I'm going with schools of Bloodfins, Scissor tails and Corys for right now. I thought about having only one type of fish but I like a bit of a variety.

The Christmas Moss tied to the driftwood is growing in nicely. I received some Ranunculus inundatus and Hydrocotytle sp japan today. I've seen R. inundatus tied to driftwood. Hydrocotytle I've seen floating.

The bottom of this tank is merely rock, 1/4" sand and driftwood. I want to dose the water column with ferts and see how these plants do. Anchoring them will be a bit of a challenge. I don't quite know how to achieve this yet other than anchor runners between rocks, not covering them with sand.

I also have some Pogostemon helferi on the way that I'm going to tie on the driftwood.

Any advice...besides I'm crazy?


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## AquaBarren

Really enjoying the thread Walter. I don't have any good advice. You're doing a great job. I do have one minor, insignificant tip though, that you probably already have a solution for, but here goes...

You're going to love that 2080. Except when it's time to clean it. Getting any large canister out of the cabinet is a pain, but that 2080 will weigh a ton full of water. I bought a janitor bucket on wheels. One of those yellow plastic ones without the mop thing attached. Made it a lot easier to just load the filter into the bucket and wheel it to the maint area (laundry room) 40 feet away. Then it was handy to hold parts during cleaning as a second basin. 

I have some disc problems do I may play things too safe, but that yellow bucket was a great idea. If I had room in my Osaka 320 cabinet, I would also install one of those heavy duty, pull out kitchen cabinet shelves to hold the filter. 

That surface skimmer is a great idea.


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## walterk

Thanks, AquaBarren. It's nice to know that some folks are following.

I placed the 2080 on the outside of the cabinet, on the far end, away from things. I put it in a plastic storage container on wheels. That said, the wheels don't work real well with all that weight. I might need to find another option down the road. Fortunately, I am hopeful that it will take longer in between maintenance because of the prefilters. I'm not going to break it down until there is some degree of flow restriction (per the gauge on the unit).

Thanks for sharing that. I might look around at some industrial supply place for some ideas on wheels.

The surface skimmer worked exceptionally well at first. Then I decreased the flow. I'm playing with the flow rates of both filters. I need to find a happy medium. Not there yet. I've got to find "the zone." 

I've seen a lot of discussions about the ideal flow rate. Is it 8 - 10 X/hour? The 2080 is ~450 gal max. With lava rock and filter media, and very short tubes from the filter, I wonder what the flow actually is? 

One thing is sure, with the dimensions of the aquarium, I simply can't crank it all the way up. The flow is much too strong for the fish.

I visited an Ikea store yesterday in Round Rock, TX. I picked up 5 more work lamps for $9.99 each. When the additional LED bulbs arrive, I'll hook them up. So, I may have a total of 17 lights. I've discovered that I need more light in the back for some pieces of driftwood.

The Florida Corydoras sterbai -- they were not included in the shipment that arrived at my LFS, so I picked up 7 Corydoras delphax at Aquatek in Austin, TX. So, I think I'm done with the bait: 18 bloodfins, 14 scissor tails, 7 corydoras, 3 yoyo botias, 3 pea puffers, 1 "sand loach". I thought about a simple large single species group of fish but I like some variety. There will be more solid waste with all the fish for the 90 gallons, but I favor more bait to look at. I would like to maintain a water change schedule of 1/2 of the tank per week lightly stirring the sand.

This week, I plan on beginning a 1/4 EI schedule. I'm also going to add Excel. If I like this, I will make some "homemade" Excel to use. 

Should there be algae present at this point? As of yet, I don't find any. Perhaps I'm just lucky? Another thought is the lighting. The LEDs give mostly a narrow "blue spike" which shows cool white light to the eye. I wonder if that would limit the kinds of algae?

The Christmas Moss shows growth at the tips. We will see if and when the other plants take off. It will be interesting. Will the LEDs provide the type of light needed for healthy growth?


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## walterk

Dosed today. I'm doing a "conservative EI" for ~90 gallons of water. It is not fully planted and is dominated by slow growing moss.

So, I'm going to initially tinker with:


3X per week:
1/4+ tsp of KNO3
1/8 tsp KH2PO4

2X per week:
6 ml Flourish

Daily:
9 ml Flourish Excel
Not using a "beginning dose"

I can bump up things later on when it fills out.

Made adjustments to the skimmer. Works well now. No visible surface scum. Increased the flow on the skimmer and pointed outflow toward the surface some distanced from the unit. Added the additional Ikea work lamps and added bulbs (total of 17). Now there is shimmer throughout the entire tank.


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## walterk

Pics do not do this justice. The light to dark section is much more subtle. I've attempted to have a focal point in a long aquarium by using "negative space." It is the only area that is not lit. Does this work? I guess, just like anything else, there is personal taste involved. It works for me.


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## niko

A word about the fertilizers:

The ratio of Nitrate to Phosphate that you are using is 2:1. This is far from what would be the "sweet spot" for not allowing blue or green algae to grow - the Redfield ratio. The ratio is more or less 10:1.










This is a very good written article about the Redfield ratio:
http://buddendo.home.xs4all.nl/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

The Redfield ratio is not written in stone because many things influence the two numbers. It is both pretty pointless and risky to try to maintain a given ratio of Nitratehosphate by dosing. It can be done only if you yourself constantly take care of the things that influence the ratio. Basically constantly fighting against the natural processes in your own tank. When Phosphate is added in excess you are really playing with danger.

In an ADA aquarium the AquaSoil provides the Nitrate and the Phosphate is minimal. Testing the water shows minimal Nitrate (about 1 ppm) and no Phosphate. The active engineered substrate is what plays a huge role. The plants get all the Nitrate they want from the substrate (only when they decide they need it). So the Nitrate portion of the Redfield ratio is infinite (but not in the water). The Phosphate is below 0.05 ppm. The main point in all these Japanese acrobatics is that the Phosphate is always kept extremely low and serves a two-fold purpose:

1. To limit the plant growth so the tank is manageable
2. Should any algae appears bringing the growth to a halt is only a single water change away

In Dutch tanks the Redfield ratio is being managed without added fertilizers. It is an integrated approach by combining the following:
1. The fish food choice(different foods supply different ratio of Nitrate to Phosphate)
2. The available Carbon
3. The filter media choice
4. The flow rate through the filter
5. The size of the aquarium substrate particles

The last 3 are not that big of a mistery. They have to do with the way the biofilter works. There are microorganisms that do different things in the biofilter - some make Nitrate, some make Ammonia, some break down organics (which can soak up a lot of Phosphate), and there are others clowns too. Basically the biofilter provides all the tools to manage the nutrient exchange inside the tank.

The way your tank looks with all these lights on top smacks me of a Japanese reef tank


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## Michael

I like the dark negative space.

Very long tanks like this one pose a design challenge: how do you compose a layout that continues for the entire length of the tank? You solved that by dividing the design into two unequal portions, each of which can stand on its own. The eye gets a "rest" when it comes to the dark area. Unity is provided by the similar materials and shapes in both parts.

I analize your design differently than you do, but who cares if it works? I wish I could see it in person. Unlike many of the contest tanks we see, yours is not meant to be photographed, but to be seen in three dimensions.


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## walterk

Niko, any suggestions on how I might proceed? I'm sold on only having a thin layer of sand and rock.

Mike, thanks! I really like the look! For this tank, the negative space provides the needed break. Unfortunately, as I said earlier, the pic makes it look too dark.


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## niko

If everything is ok then don't change anything.

If there are algae appearing then the Phosphate needs to come down. And the CO2 needs to be spot on.


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## walterk

There is blue-green algae on some of the moss. 

I'm going to reduce the Phosphate level.

I'm also going to purchase a dimmer for the LEDS (they are dimmable) and reduce the lighting level. After PAR readings, I may keep certain bulbs on high that are directly over the Ranunculus inundatus and hydrocorltle sp japan.

I'm not running CO2 because of the turbulent water flow -- just Excel.


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## walterk

Question: would it be worth it to hook up my CO2 to this tank, or would the current rapidly degas it? There is flow the full length of the tank. It doesn't blow the fish away. I would think of it as a "moderate current." I also have a FW skimmer. Not sure if I should have CO2 hooked up. Would this be a waste?


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## AquaBarren

I don't know that current alone will degas Walter. Surface agitation will, but I've never seen good comparisons between tanks with and without a lot of surface agitation. I know of quite a few folks with healthy co2 and a LOT of agitation. My tank included.

What does your flow pattern look like? Will water rich in dissolved co2 make it across such a long tank, or is it likely to rise quickly to the surface? Might need more than one entry point for the co2. Move your drop checker around and see what it has to say.

Try it and see what happens if you have all of the kit. Can always take it out if you don't see any result. 

How's the tank doing?


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## Tex Gal

So nice that you are finally realizing your dream tank. I will be interested in seeing how your plants do. I've never heard of growing pogostemon helferi out of the substrate. It usually requires a rice substrate, CO2, and high light. As for the ranunculus inundatus, that is usually planted as well. It is true that R. Inundatus does send out runners and so will climb on rocks it does send roots down to the substrate. Water column ferts will not keep these two plants alive without substrate, to my knowledge. Your other plants, mosses and hydrcoytle should do fine floating, tied to things, etc.

I also am interested in your Tunze Nano Cleaner. I fight a constant battle with a biofilm layer. I've been toying with the idea of some sort of skimmer. I hate adding more equipment but the film MUST go.


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