# Opinions on showcase fish?



## TortoiseBoy (Dec 30, 2004)

Hello, folks.
I am restarting my 90 gallon tank soon and am am looking for some "showcase" fish to go with some that I already have. I currently have 7 full size SAE's, two clown loaches (~3"), 14 cardinal tetras, and a half dozen or so Otos. I am looking for a few larger, attention-grabbing fish to augment my current stock. I run the tank currently at around 78-80 degrees, 6.2-6.3 pH with pressurized CO2 and a controller, and my water is very soft. The plant will eventually be heavily planted again  I had a protracted fight with the BBA and nothing worked so I am starting over. 

I have a few fish in mind and would welcome any comments.

1) Discus. I have always liked them, but am not sure I have the right setup for them. The tank is in the living room and my kids are always running by. The fish I already have in the tank are also frequently startled by an outside door that shuts fairly loudly. I am thinking this may be too stressful an environment for discus.

2) Angels. I have never had them before because they never particularly attracted me. They may be a viable option in my conditions, though. The potential for breeding them and selling the fry is attractive.

3) Large rainbows. I love turquoise, red and Boesmani rainbows. I think they all look awesome when they are big, especially the males. Would it be ok to have a pair of each given the load I already have in there? Is there anything about my water conditions that would be inappropriate for them? Are they easily bred? Is a single pair of each the way to go?

4) Other suggestions? I am always willing to listen to other ideas 

Thanks so much for any advice you might be able to offer. 

Have a good week!

TB


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## drgold (Oct 22, 2006)

I have a tank of mature (3"-4") mixed male rainbows and it is working out well. However, they're not great as pairs because they are very prolific breeders and the male will likely harass the female to the point of exhaustion. They're good in groups (3m/6f) and in a single-species setup. Mixing species invites crossbreeding, which the rainbow nuts hate. 

I have 6 Boesemani, 4 Turquoise, 2 reds and 2 zig zags, and they've been living together comfortably for a year+. They display for eachother but do not fight. I do not know what would happen if I had females, but probably nothing good. 

also, Rainbows are generally considered a hard, alkaline water fish. They will probably do fine in a soft, acidic water, but I can't say that for sure. They are absolutely wonderful fish, though, and great as showcases. 

If someone can tell you how they'll do in your water, consider a mixed male setup. Reds, yellows, boesman's and turquoise are stunning fish. The zigs zags are great, too, but look best only when playing/fighting with eachother. Mine do this every day, but only in the evening.


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## drgold (Oct 22, 2006)

oh, and to answer your question about breeding rainbows: yes, they are easily bred and they generally spawn each morning for several weeks/months. However, they grow VERY slow and are difficult to sell until they have some color. This can take a year. Angels grow much more quickly.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

My first thought was that Angels would be great centerpiece fish, and you have great conditions for them.

I'm sure the Rainbow's would look great too, but you have more appropriate water for the Angel's. I don't know enough about Discus to comment.

Another option would be something like Ram's or Apisto's since they would like your water conditions too.


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## TortoiseBoy (Dec 30, 2004)

Good answers, folks. I love the idea of male rainbows, but I don't want the poor fish to be stressed. I used to have neon rainbows in the tank and they did ok, but they always seemed to labor in breathing a bit. The hardness issue may be why. 

Angels are a better fit for the water conditions, I agree. My cardinals are full grown; will the angels be tempted to try to eat them? They don't have THAT big mouths, I don't think. 

Rams/Apistos would be great, too, but I have had terrible luck with rams at the LFS (very similar story to the numerous I have read on this board) and I am hesitant to order them online only to have them die off again. I am not as impressed with the coloring of the other Apistos, but I may have never seen good examples of some of the other species. 

Excellent feedback so far. Other opinions/options? Anybody have info on discus? Thanks again,

TB


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## Marilyn1998 (Sep 13, 2006)

As far as discus, I see only a few things.

#1 is your temps are too low. Discus need a temp of 84-86 to do well. The companion fish seem ok, but watch the clown loaches as they tend to get really large and may compete with the discus for food. Discus like to graze the gravel for leftovers. Discus do well in groups of 5-6.
Also, some ottos and SAE's may develop a taste for discus slime. If you witness this it is a good idea to remove the offender. It doesnt happen all the time but it can develop.
With a planted tank I would avoid the smaller juvenile discus and go for deloscent ones 4" or larger. Less than 4" and they are pretty demanding in being fed small meals 4-6 times a day. This makes a mess in the water with leftover food and excess fish waste. IT is hard to keep the planted tank clean, and to keep the nutrients in the tank for the plants when you are doing water changes as often as is required.
Also, juvie discus tend to get diseases that require salt and meds more often than the older ones. Plants dont always handle the meds well.

If you are willing to get older discus, raise your temps, and watch your cleanup crew I think you have a winner with discus!!!!

HTH


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## TortoiseBoy (Dec 30, 2004)

Good information, Marilyn. 
Temp is not a problem except in the context of the plants I just ordered  Is 85 degrees too warm for some plant species or are most of them pretty tolerant of those conditions?

The cleaner crew is no problem. I can take measures if they cause trouble. The clown loaches are pretty mellow. They have been very slow-growing in the couple of years I have had them and they didn't seem to bother the other fish much (though I never had anything slow-moving).

The advice on getting larger fish is not what I wanted to hear, since discus of that size are not typically in the price bracket I like to be in  But, if that is the best size to get, then I guess I can suck it up. I will have to see what the LFS has available.

What is your opinion on the activity level in the room with the tank? My kids really spend a lot of time running around, etc. in that room. My existing fish will flinch sometimes when doors are slammed and other loud noises happen. Am I incorrect in assuming that discus would have a hard time in an environment like that? I always heard/assumed that they were pretty high strung fish. Is that not the case? 

Thanks again,

TB


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## Marilyn1998 (Sep 13, 2006)

NO LFS PLEASE!!!!! You can get 4" fish from some very good and inexpensive breeders for much less and in muc better shape.
I have ordered from all of these and was very happy:

http://www.geocities.com/kc_discus/ Discus KC (Jack or Willie)

Home Green Country (Angela or Andrew)

Gulf Coast Discus (Gulf Coast Dan)

Gold Mountain Discus (Frank)

Discus are like newborns. If you are active around them they are used to it and will acclimate.
Like all fish, when they are new to you, it is good to not have too much happening around the tanks. In my house, my tank is located in the great room where everyone congragates and it is next to the kitchen. My neices get the step stool out and "play" with the fish by talking to them and feeding them bits of bloodworms. THe fish eat out of their hands.

Give them plants or wood to hide behind to make them feel comfortable when needed. Even though you can see them, they feel they are safe if they can hide from you. It can take 2-3 weekw for them to get friendly. THen again, I have had them swim out of the bag and breed!!!

You can do it with enough education into what you are getting into.

As far as the plants, there are MANY that will take the temps of 84-86. At AquariumPlants.com Largest online sales / service site for the live aquarium plants community. they have a section for beginners, discus, and others. You will find many plants that will do well.

Discus LOVE sword plants. They hide among them and congregrate around them too.


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## shadow (Jan 21, 2005)

Um do some research first if your planning rainbows, in general they are pretty tolerant fish and can handle a variety of conditions for example boesmani's have been collected in areas from ph6.4 to ph9. If your not planning to breed them just get males, females rainbows are in general rather plain. If you are planning to breed them then go for a 1m/2f ratio.


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## senso (Sep 23, 2005)

*Showfish*

TB

Your choices are all great.

*DISCUS *Marilyn is spot on with the Discus. With your planted set up, you should definitely go with the adults if you choose this option. Depending on the color option you like this can be a spectacular display. You will need to be mindful of the temperature and raise it to at least 82, but I have found that at 86 to 88 the fish seem a lot happier. The higher temps will limit your plant choices but they are still extensive, IMO. I have a large school of wild discus in a family room. My kids go by continually. Provided the discus are healthy they will be there all the time. If they are hiding and dark, it is often a sign that they are not in peak condition. Discus - do not buy from a LFS or many of the auction sites unless you know the seller is reputable.

*Angels *will be easier. A small school of 6 to 7 wild scalare, a domestic morph or if you wish to be adventurous, go with some Altums. I have 5 in a 75 g (for now) as they get really tall. They school a lot. My temp is 82 in this et up and the plants and fish are thriving.

I would recommend increasing your school of cardinals to triple that number. It looks spectacular. Your ottos as well as the cardinals may become food for the angels and discus. Recently I watched an Altum eat an otto whole and then take about 10 minutes to swallow it completely.

If you went with Discus or Angels you could also add a pair or two of Apistos. If you want Rams the Bolivians remain hardier.

Something I have not personally experienced but think look great in a colony of 6 to 8 (in a 90g) are Geophagus. There are some varieties that grow to about 12" others only 5".

This is a lot of fun and I am certain your choice will be rewarding.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Go with discus!
I think Marylin and Senso has outlined it well.
The only comment I have to add are 81F is the magic number to keep most mosses nice. Higher than that and they look brown are blah or even just die.
Discus may do better at 30c[86F] in terms of better appetite and disease resistance but frankly speaking a compromise at 26-28C[79-82.4] works for me. Right now, I have a school of 8 juvies[2-3in-head to tail base] for two months in a 120G maintained at this temp range.

Previously had some success in raising them to about 6in in planted tanks.
Tetrabits in an auto feeder, some zeolite in the filter, weekly 40% water change, once a week some beefheart mix before a WC.


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## Kitishane (Nov 17, 2006)

The only thing I can add to this is that you probably should add at least one more clown to your tank. Loaches tend to do better in groups of 3 or more, but 5-6 tends to be their "happy" place.


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## Cassie (May 27, 2006)

I'll comment about the cardinals becoming a snack for the angels...as long as you get the angels when they are young and way too small to even thing about eating other tankmates, you should be fine. My pair of angels grew up with small tetras and we've had no problem with silver-tips or cardinals (or otos) in the tank with them, although they do eat baby guppies (which is why the mom and dad are in there anyway!  )


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## ihooklow (Sep 20, 2006)

You have another option: A large school of something. Cardinals, Harlequin Rasboras, Rummy Nose Tetras... Very impressive to see several dozen of these schooling back and forth. Just a thought. Ends up being more expensive, though.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

I wouldn't worry too much about stressing the Rainbows. I have really soft water (KH-3 barely GH-3 from the tap 4-5 with the addition of some Equilibrium) and my pH is about 5.6 with the CO2 additions and I have a bunch of large and small rainbows in the tank who all do really well. Don't seem bothered by the soft water at all.


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## oblongshrimp (Aug 8, 2006)

I also have rainbows in 100% RO water. They have great color and they are constantly trying to spawn. I have several different types so I havn't bothered trying to keep any eggs though since I don't want a bunch of cross-breeds.


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## TortoiseBoy (Dec 30, 2004)

Great suggestions, everybody. Thanks so much for all of the feedback. You guys are great! 

I think, after reading all of your feedback and thinking things over, that I may try some Altums. I have never had them before and they are just striking and not something that people see every day. My 90 should be a good place for a half dozen or so of them. 

I think that rainbows would be fine, but I have had them before and would like something different. Discus are great, but I don't think I have enough money to follow the advice above and get adults. They are pricey! A large school of something may still be possible since I woulld like to augment my cardinal supply. 

Thanks very much again for everybody's advice.

Happy Holidays,

TB


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

for graeat apistos check Home

you will get great fish, not LFS quality.

If you want good Rams (again not LFS quality) buy of aquabid sellers 
Discusgeorge (obvilusly he breeds and sells Discus, and is working on Koi angels as well as the Rams) and Tarmak (or tamarak not sure) I have both of their Rams, very nice, very hardy, no problems, lots of eggs.

I love the idea of a S. AM set up with apistos, rams and Discus or Angels, Actually I am proparing to do a 75 gal this exact way (discus not angels), and throwing in some tetra's also.


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## TortoiseBoy (Dec 30, 2004)

Oh, and one other thing - can anybody recommend a good place to order Altum Angels?  Thanks!

TB


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