# Ammonium form = no deformed leaves ?



## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

I've just come to some conlucions recently but i'm not quite sure... In the past when i set up my first planted tank i used NPK fertilizer where the nitrogen was in urea form or most probably - guanidine carbonate form (CH5N3)2.H2CO3. Also, i used only pure RO water reconstituted so that the water in my tank had only 13 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg (Ca was from CaCO3 only). Despite low Ca, Mg and almost not-detectable PO4 levels my plants grew like crazy. NO3 was also quite low, it never exceeded 10 ppm. CO2 was max. 15 ppm.
I never had deformed young leaves, burned tips or stunted tips etc. I estimated i had about 10..15 ppm K as well. When i switched to use KNO3 instead of that NPK fert things went very bad. All my alternatera and rotalas and also umbrosum looked like burned (severly deformed new leaves). Additionally, the total growth was stunted. The first thing i suspected to be wrong was low Ca so i increased it up to 40 ppm but it didn't help much. I tried everything: changing Ca/Mg ratios, used other salts to reconstitute RO, changed micros levels and ratios, high NO3 and PO4, low NO3 and PO4 - it all failed ! Only when K was close to zero ppm plants started to grow better but K deficiency showed up on other plants. A friend of mine is experiencing very similar problems. So, i stick to the opinion that the culprit may be nitrogen form because when i used it (guanidine carbonate and probably NH4HCO3) i had no issues.


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi Kekon,

I am facing similar problems (see my thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/science-of-fertilizing/29718-which-deficiency-pics-included.html) and I have read your posts thoroughly.

Don't you think the macros could have been the limiting growth factor (levels of PO4 close to 0 you said) before? 
By adding nitrogen, phophorus and potassium the plants now grow more and the limiting factor has changed. It could be one trace element?

I would be surprised if your problem comes from the use of NPK as many people are very successful with them.

Good luck.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

> By adding nitrogen, phophorus and potassium the plants now grow more and the limiting factor has changed. It could be one trace element?


But which one ? I haven't been able to find it for 10 months...


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

NH2 is part of the amine group which is used to make plant proteins. Nitrate (NO3) isn't. Because of that plants are able to utilize NH2 very easily. Plants must convert NO3 to a usuable form first.

Guanidine is an excellent nitrogen source for plants. The three NH2's are bound to a carbon atom that makes it harder for algae to use it.










Seachem uses it in their Flourish Nitrogen product.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

I've just ordered some guanidine carbonate - (CH5N3)2 * H2CO3. I could also buy CH5N3 * HCl but i rejected the idea because it would also add chloride. It's not possible to get pure guanidine (i didn't find it anywhere). The guanidine carbonate solution (5%) has high ph = 11. I suppose that the salt is used in the NPK fert i used because it also has high pH (above 10). I have one concern about guanidine carbonate: is there any additional enzyme needed for it to successfully utilize by plants ? (for pure urea for example - uraese is needed. The uraese contains nickel ions)


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Kekon, please keep us informed of your results with guanidine carbonate. This is very interesting!!


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> Kekon, please keep us informed of your results with guanidine carbonate. This is very interesting!!


I will  However, i've just begun to dose NH4 (from NH4NO3 salt) but only 0,15 ppm NH4 a day. I know some folks will "bite" me for doing that...
The guanidine carbonate will be available next week. A friend if mine began to dose guanidine a few days ago but we have to wait some time to see the effects.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Guanidine nitrate would probably be a better nitrogen source.


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Here is the lowest price for Guanidine Nitrate on Froogle. Also 98%.

What is the formula for calculating how much of CH5N3.HNO3 becomes N from Guanidine and how much becomes Ntrate? Just curious. (I understand one could calculate total N using molecular weights.)

Thank you.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

To calculate it you just need to calculate atomic mass for CH5N3 * HNO3 taking each element from the periodic table:

C: 12
H5: 1 * 5 = 5
N3: 14 * 3 = 42
H: 1
N: 14
O3: 16 * 3 = 48

Total mass: 122: 
NO3 mass: 14 + 48 = 62

NO3 / 122 = 0.508 -> 50.8%

the rest of ntrogen: N3: 42
N3 / 122 = 0.344 -> 34.4%

So, guanidine nitrate contains 34.4% of NO3.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

czado said:


> Here is the lowest price for Guanidine Nitrate on Froogle. Also 98%.


They won't sell to individuals, only businesses. They will ask for your tax ID number when you order.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

Latest news:

It seems some factors have helped (however, one must wait at least a few days to confirm that)

- i lowered PO4 to 0.25 ppm (i know P excess may cause Zn deficiency)
- started to dose NH4 (now 0.3 ppm a day - no new algae)
- added 0.02 ppm of Zn-EDTA (TMG has very low Zn content)

Umbrosum and Alternatera Reineckii look better. New leaves aren't deformed.
I'm a bit confused as i don't know exactly which factor is "taking the lead":
lower PO4, a change from NO3 to NH4 or more Zinc. 
I'm also still waiting for guanidine carbonate and observing the plants.


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## fabry (May 13, 2005)

Hi Kekon,
finally you are on the right way.  

One more clue:

It is the Zinc, but not necessarily because your plants were Zinc deficient.

Always remember the Boron.

You have the solution in your hands. 

Regards,

Fabrizio.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

fabry said:


> Hi Kekon,
> finally you are on the right way.


I hope so 

When it comes to boron i tried to increase its levels but it failed. Any attempt to increase it above 0.02..0.03 ppm resulted in chlorosis on new leaves and totally stunted growth. I carried out this experiment at least three times always having the same result. A few persons i know tried to do it as well and they had the same results too. However, i know Zn levels are not as critical as boron ones. I came to the conclusion that TMG wasn't good for pure RO water unless other fert is used at the same time. The tap water usually consists some boron, zinc and copper. In my region their levels vary in the following ranges:

boron: 0.02..0.05 ppm
zinc: 0.01..0.05 ppm
copper: 0.001..0.01 ppm


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## fabry (May 13, 2005)

Hi Kekon,
one question:
Did you ever get the Boron level measured in your acquarium water (where you have the problems)?

Consider the following things:

R.O. systems only remove about 55-60% of the Boron present in the water entering the system.

Higher Calcium levels are needed when high Boron levels are present (otherwhise some plants can show Boron toxicity symptoms).

Boron can be mobile or not, depending on the plant.
Plants producing high enough levels of simple sugars called Polyols can traslocate easily Boron inside through phloem.
In these plants Boron toxicity shows in apical parts.

Higher Zinc levels alleviate Boron toxicity symptoms in almost all plants.
as a reference: http://crops.confex.com/crops/wc2006/techprogram/P12243.HTM

Best regards,

Fabrizio.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

I read the article thoroughly, it's gives me some more views... 
When it comes to boron, i estimated its levels basing on daily fertilizer dosage, amount of water at WC and assuming plants don't uptake boron at all. Of course it's not accurate but i also took into account measurements that were made by some people i know - they measured boron level in a lab at it turned out that there are crictical boron levels that inhibit plant growth. Having hard water (Ca about 66 ppm) they had problems with growth when B was 0,09 ppm. When it was 0,15 ppm - the growth was totally stunted with accompanying chlorosis on many new leaves. 
But my problem is not really boron nor zinc (however, some more zinc helped in some extent). I found an article in the internet about nitrogen form effect on calcium deficiency (pdf). It explains to me a few important things - namely, why i had very low Ca (about 13 ppm), and had no Ca deficiency. The NPK fert i used consisted urea. I've just begun to test the fert again to confirm the fact, that N form may have effect on Ca deficiency.

Latest news:

A friend of mine examined Guanidine Carbonate as a source of nitrogen but it didn't work...


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## Elkmor (Mar 30, 2005)

kekon:

Recently I used NPK and my Ca is less than 6 ppm, and had very occasional problems with tips death. I have problems now, experimenting with boron.  So Zn may be the answer for me now, thank you for links.

Your last link is broken. Where, you say, you found that artile?


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

I downloaded it from here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artinstid=438273&blobtype=pdf

It works for me...


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## Elkmor (Mar 30, 2005)

Thanks a lot!


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