# How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments



## kekon

I was invisible on the forum as i was experimenting very hard and i have some new experiences i want to share with you. I gathered all the things i did during last 20 months.
The post also explains how to eliminate the most common problem such as stunted tips, curled and deformed leaves. Also, i think it's the highest time to disprove some theories such as "K blocking Ca" (it does, but to some extent only), "add more KNO3", "more CO2" etc.  As usual, i use pure RO water in order to know all the elements concentration in the tank water (obviously RO filter doesn't remove all the impurities from the tap water but we can assume that those are at vero low, negligible levels). Recently i have switched to my own micro fert and i obtain better results that using commercial ones. Besides it's much, much cheaper solution. It's a pity i can't post some photos here i took during experimentig because i've reached upload limit... I hope the text i've posted will describe my experiments well.

*The story about Ca, Mg, N, P, K*

Compounds used to fertilize the tank:

1. CaCO3, CaSO4*2H2O (as a source of Ca)
2. Anhydrous MgSO4 (as a source of Mg)
3. CaCl2 (as a source of Cl)
4. KH2PO4 (as a source of P)
5. KNO3, CO(NH2)2 (urea) and NH4NO3, Ca(NO3)2*4H2O (as a source of N)

NO3 test kit (Hagen) was calibrated.
Water used during WC at the beginning of the experiment (all values in ppms):

Tank 200 liters, ligthting 160 W, temp. 24C.
Ca = 25, Mg = 5, Cl = 10, SO4 = 70..80, K = 10, NO3 about 10 ppm, PO4 = 1. KNO3 and CaNO3

Blyxa Japonica grows very fast; it constantly produces little flowers. Micranthemum Umbrosum is stunted. It grows extremely slowly; leaves are extremely small, griowing tips disappear. Alternatera Reineckii is severely stunted; new leaves are horribly twisted and deformed, growth is very slow. Rotala Indica grows very slowly as well, some tips are dwarfed. Glossostigma and HC grow pretty well. Cabomba caroliniana grows exceptionally fast and needs to be pruned twice a week. No algae.

change: NO3 was lowered to 5 ppm.
effect: Umbrosum and Alternatera began to grow normally, without deformations and stunted tips.

This lasted for about week and a half but the plants became stunted again. Potassium excess was suspected.

change: K was lowered to 5 ppm (5 ppm K added to changed water during WC; no K was dosed on 
daily basis throughout the week)
effect: No change in growth. Old leaves on Bacopa Caroliniana rot and fell off. So it wasn't K 
excess...

change: K was raised to 15 ppm in the water column.
effect: In 3 days Umbrosum and Alternetera began to grow healthy and fast, no stunted tips and 
deformations on young leaves. All other plants started faster growth rate. Limnophila 
Aromatica was producing new side shots. So it was K deficiency ! 
Now i decided to add 20 ppm K at every water change (to changed water) to keep this 
level in the water column.

Classic definition of potassium defiency says, that it shows up as yellowing old leaves, pinholes and rotting. As i noticed in the experiment above, it can also appear on growing tips causing them to stop growing. Some sources confirm the fact (http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=289)
It may resemble Ca deficiency in aquatic environment and we often confuse it with one.

Since i added 20 ppm K at every water change plants grew much better but some tips on Umbrosum and Alternatera were still stunted. I suspected that there was still not enough K (although it was 20 ppm K in the water column). It seems unbelievable.

change: an extra 10 ppm K dose was added to the tank. Now it was approx. 30 ppm K in the water 
column.
effect: in 3 days new side shots grew on the affected plants but most new leaves became pale.

It made me think that plants really needed high amounts of K. However, new shots stopped to growth shortly after extra 10 ppm K dose... Besides, most plants became unusually pale despite decent iron and manganese fertilization (0.35 ppm Fe and 0.2 ppm Mn weekly).
I was scratching my head of what is causing the stunting and pale leaves. There was one more deficienct element... Because there was plenty of K i had the right to suspect Ca deficiecy:

change: Ca was raised to 45 ppm (Mg was unchanged and maintained at 5 ppm in the water column)
effect: slight improvement was noticed but it was unacceptable, most new leaves became much 
paler.

There was one element that i was afraid to add more - magnesium.

change: Mg was raised to 10 ppm.
effect: In 3 days all the plants started healthy ane faster growth. No stunted tips and deformations.
Several days after adding more Mg, pale leaves regained their natural colors. Some leaves of 
Cardamine Lyrata curled upward along edges so it was a sign that there was slight Mg excess 
for this plant.

change: because of slight Mg excess i reduced it to 8 ppm. Also Ca was reduced to 32 ppm. K was 
dosed at a rate 20 ppm per water change (20 ppm to changed water, not to a whole tank !) 
and additionally 1..2 ppm K daily.

effect: all the plants grow very well, they have rich colors, no algae, no stunting, twisting etc. Only 
Rotala Wallichi grows very slowly and some tips are stunted. This plant is problematic for me 
and i still don't know how to make it grow well. Changing different ratios and levels of 
nutrients (including micros) doesn't have any effect on the plant.

So, now water paramneters at which plants are growing very well are as follows:

*Ca = 32, Mg = 8, Na = max. 5, NO3 = 5, PO4 = 0.2..0.5, K approx. 30 ppm, Cl = 5*,

I'm going to take water sample and bring it to the laboratory to get to know exact values of Ca, Mg and K.

*"Rude" summary *

It seems that stunting, twisting and deformations on new leaves are caused by:

- nitrogen excess at low GH
- too little Mg, K, and sometimes Ca
- too high Ca:Mg ratio (above 5:1; some plants don't care about it but it does matter for some 
species)

I forgot to add some more about NO3. Lowering NO3 always helped to eliminate problems with stunted tips but at lower NO3 (5 ppm) some fast growing species may suffer from N deficiency. To solve the problem while keeping low NO3 i introduced urea and NH4 into N fertilizer together with NO3. I simply made N fertilizer produced by German "Drak" company. The fertilizer is named "Eudrakon N" and daily dose adds to the tank:

1 ppm NO3
0.33 ppm urea
0.1 ppm NH4

Some of you may thing it causes algae bloom but it doesn't ! This fert works very well, plants love to be fed with 3 forms of N  Using 3 forms of N we can keep low NO3 in the tank and have fast growth.

*The story about micros*

At the beginning of experimenting i used TMG fert on daily basis adding 200% of the recommended dose. However, it turned out to be too little. Because i use pure RO water, TMG fert has to be dosed much more than the recommended dose. I achieved good results at 250% dose + extra Fe and Mn. Of course it is too expensive, especially for larger tanks. When i added 200% dose Limnophila Aromatica grew slower and it produced tiny leaves placed very close to each other. I suspected zinc deficiency:

change: 0.02 ppm of Zn was added from zinc sulphate (ZnSO4*7H2O)
effect: in 4 days the plants bagan to produce normal sized leaves.

It turned out that zinc sulphate and chelated zinc EDTA type work well. I didin't notice difference between not chelated and chelated zinc, however it is safer to use chelated one. So i made my own micro fert and the weekly doses of micronutrients were as follows (all values in ppms):

Fe: 0.35 
Mn: 0.2
B: 0.02
Zn: 0.02
Mo: 0.004
Cu: 0.008
Ti: 0.002 
Ni: 0.001
Co: 0.001

compounds used:

- DTPA 7% Fe chelator ("Dissolvine D-Fe-7" made by Akzo-Nobel)
- Mn 14% Mn chelator (EDTA + some DTPA)
- Cu, Zn chelators (EDTA + some DTPA)
- ammonium molybdate as a source of Mo
- titanium solution 0.85% Ti (titanium acts as biostimulator but it is not neccessary for plants)
- nickel chloride
- cobalt chloride

Plnats grew quite well, but after some time some time (about 2 weeks) some new leaves on Rotala Indica bent downward and some leaves vere chlorotic. Boron excess was suspected.

change: i did 50% water change and weekly boron dose was limited to 0.008 ppm
effect: a few days after WC affected chlorotic leaves took normal colors, no more bent leaves grew.

Disiplis Diandra was one of plants that have too pale leaves, despite good Fe and other nutrients fertilization. Copper deficiency was suspected.

changed: daily Cu dose was raised to 0.012 ppm
effect: a week later, Didiplis had richer colors.

However i'm not quite sure if it was higher copper dose that helped. It can be caused by other factors but as i remember adding more Cu always helped Didiplis to take richer red colours on its tips.

Now i no longer use any commercial micro fert  The only issue is how to preserve the solution from mould and preciptitating nutrients. To to this i add ascorbic acid (0.5 g / 1L). It preserves the fertilizer from oxidation. To prevent the solution from mould it is neccessary to use methyl paraben but i haven't managed to get one so far so i keep my fert in the fridge.

Sorry for such a long text but i hope it will help some of you to enjoy our hobby.


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## MemphisBob

Excellent and very intense examination of plant uptake and deficiency. I take it that plant growth was sustainable for 6 weeks or more once you reached your final choice of levels? Could you list the plant specie used in the experiment? J. Blyxa, D. Diandra, L. Aromatica, M. Umbrosium, B. Caroliniana, A. Reinecki, M. Umbrosum, R. Wallachi, R. Indica, and C. Lyrata I gathered from the above text. Any others? I think this could make a nice reference source once it's discussed.


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## kekon

Plants that were used:

- Micranthemum Umbrosum
- Alternatera Reineckii
- Blyxa japonica
- Rotala Indica
- Glossostigma Elatinoides
- Cardamine Lyrata
- Bacopa Caroliniana


- valissineria spiralis
- Anubias Barteri var. nana
- microsorium (i don't remember its exact name)
- elechoaris
- Rotala Wallichii


Plants species written in green color didn't react to any change in fertilization so i omited them in the desctription. All other plants responded exceptionally quickly to every change; however i tried to maintain any introduced change for at least 2 weeks. When i wanted to change any micronutrient i added desired amount of it directly into the tank and the effect was noticeable no longer than a week after addition. Changing K, Mg, N always gave results that were seen no longer than 3 days after the change. At decent lighting (0.75 W / 1L) plants respond quite quickly to changes.


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## BryceM

Kekon this is very good information. I think it's pretty silly of us to state that nitrogen needs to be kept between x and y, etc. As far as I'm concerned there is a growing body of evidence that nitrogen needs are much lower in systems with soft water.

As far as potassium is concerned, this is something that I've suspected too. Amano for one is very keen on potassium dosing but less enthusiastic about N and P except in cases of high-light, high-CO2, rapid-growth plant situations. I'm becoming gradually convinced that the typical EI methods of supplying K as a byproduct of dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 probably results in too much NO3 and too little K in most situations, especially with softer water. I haven't had too many issues with tip stunting with my current fert regime except for with Pogostemon stellatus. I'm gradually cutting back on my NO3 and PO4 dosing which has helped with bothersome green algae on the glass. I've been thinking I'll need to start K2SO4 dosing at some point to avoid too little K. This will be a fun experiment.

Your writeup reminds me that I should look at this more carefully. Thanks for all of the info.

Regarding R. wallachi, some have found that Mg excess (over 10ppm) results in tip stunting, but this is nothing more than an anecdotal observation. Clearly the "rules" of dosing are highly dependent on the setup, lighting, CO2, substrate, and other parameters that are defined for any given question. It would be silly to assume similar results between a tank with an inert substrate, medium light, and hard water and a tank with ADA's Amazonia, high light, and very soft water.

My current "pet" theory is that very, very low N and P levels (by our current standars) are ideal, provided that they can be kept consistently present in stable quantities (just like nature - go figure!). Allowing a severe N shortage to develop (especially suddenly) is a great receipe for disaster. Nitrogen excess has always resulted in green crud on the glass in my tanks. Let's all remember that the addition of N and P to an aquarium was thought to be a disasterous idea even as recently as 10 years ago.


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## kekon

I think the key to success is just not too much NO3, PO4 and harder water. The harder the water the higher NO3 can be kept without stunting. EI method works well but at harder water. I don't agree EI can be used in soft water. Some plants will do very well (Cabomba, Blyxa, Zosteriflia) but some will be severely stunted. To summarize all the things we should do the following:

- do not overdose NO3 (or NH4 if someone prefers this form of nitrogen). Depending on water 
hardness it seems it should be kept no higher than 5 ppm when GH is in 3..7 range or higher than 5 
ppm when GH is at least 8.
- add enough K to changed water and additionally every day (in my case 20 ppm in changed water 
and 1..2 ppm daily works well). I've always thought K was the main culprit of stunting but now i'm 
sure it is not - on the contrary - it helps to eliminate stunting.
- ensure there is enough Mg (Mg deficiency also causes stunting). It can be kept at 4:1 ratio and 
this works well for most plants (32 ppm Ca and 8 ppm Mg works very well in my tank)
- do not add extra Mg if we use tap water and when we don't know how much Mg is there in the tap.
Overdosing Mg will cause new leaves to curl uwpard along edges or dwarfing some plants.
- do not add too much PO4. I noticed it doesnt't speed up plants growth. I keep 0.2..0.5 ppm


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## Champagnero

Hi kekon,

very interesting experiment. I've changed my dosing routine to nearly your specs and it resulted in alot healthier grow in my semisoft water (gh 6-7). For the last 6 months i was unable to get very good growth with the estimative index and tried nearly everything to get more of the "missing" nutrients into the tank. I've rised iron and trace elements to really high levels (iron around 1-2ppm). Dosed magnesium, calcium etc. My CO2 levels have been really high during the whole time at around 40ppm with direct misting towards the plants (checked via drop checker and digital pH meter).
At all my growth was never satisfying . Now i've reduced my macro dosing alot and have switsched to Eudrakon N from DRAK for nitrogen supplementation, also i've upped my K dosis to 20ppm. My plants are getting better with each day.

The big question that confuses me is why some people are getting great results with EI even in soft water (Tom for example is using a GH around 5 or WolfenXXX has nearly no GH with pure Osmosis and no extra Mg and Ca addition) and i (and alot other) struggle with proper conditions.
The main argument for no success with EI is not enough CO2, but at my case it can't be that simple. High CO2 all the time and the plants are pearling like mad but at the same time not growing very good (stunting, curling and other deformations) . I even rised my GH to higher levels (GH 13) due to your last thread hoping that with those higher ca/mg values i might be able to keep NO3 around 20ppm levels. For example freeman with a GH at 12 is able to keep 20ppm of NO3 and alot other people too.

Regards
Tobi


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## kekon

EI method is good for many plants but not for all of them. I had some plants that grew like crazy under EI fertilization in GH of about 4..5: Blyxa, Cabomba, Zosterifolia. Other plants were horribly stunted and deformed. High CO2 levels didn't help. There was 50 ppm CO2 in my tank with no good effect. We don't have to believe entirely what T.Barr and Wolfen say. They don't know all the water parameters they have in their tanks. They didn't have all the plants species either. It's very easy to patronize someone how to do things when they work very well for them. But in my opinion, one must analyze someone's problem first before telling how to solve it.

I notice that high N and P levels are not good for plants. They do better in lower NO3 and PO4 levels. However, K must be kept at high levels. 
I imagine such a situation (i don't mean to offend him; i know he's extremely good at the hobby): T.Barr comes to my house and sees stunted plants in my tank Then he tells me: 

"bring me those bags of KNO3 and KH2PO4"

Then he takes a few big spoons of KNO3 and KH2PO4 and pours them into the tank... Also, he increases CO2 valve to set 3..4 bubbles per second. He takes a bottle of TMG and pours some into the tank. And what will we get 3 days later ? Deformed, twisted and curled leaves on many plants... I did the same routine in the past with the same effect.

Now i keep GH of about 6..7, NO3 5, PO4 0.2..0.5, K 20 ppm added to changed water and 2 ppm daily. Under those conditons plants grow much, much better; they have rich colors. I no longer have issues with stunting. It seems that K is very important factor to succesfully grow aquatic plants. Also, Mg must be taken into account. Mg and K deficiency may look nearly the same - lack of these elements can cause disappearing of growing tips and deforming of young leaves (most folks may disagree as they believe that Mg and K deficiency appears as yellowing on younger leaves only)

p.s. I also use Eudrakon N  It's very good N fertilizer. However, i make it myself because i have lots of KNO3, urea and NH4NO3 which the fertlizer is made of.


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## BluesBoy

Interesting thread indeed!

I also had some stunting problems and curly leafs (especially Alternanthera) now and then on some species for a long period (1-2 year).
I'm using the EI method with 50% wc per week and do not measure any nutrients at all. However, I put a lot of focus on measure and sampling data of the CO2 in the tank to make sure I have enough every single hour every single day. I have been dosing in the range of: 10-15 ppm N, 1-4 ppm P, 10-15 ppm K, and 0.1-0.2 ppm Fe (Micro+). I have soft water from the tap (20 Ca, 4 Mg) and I've tried to boost up to quite high levels without success.

Five weeks ago a bought some test kit's ( http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=646 ) and started a new approach with much lower nutrient levels and the tank is now running very well without stunting plants and curly leaves.

My new dosing regime:

After wc I add:
6 ppm N + 4 ppm K from KNO3
5 ppm K from K2SO4
0.25 ppm P from KH2PO4
No extra Ca/Mg is added at all.

Now my remaining issue which confuses me a lot - trace elements.
I have to add 0.2 ppm (no more no less) from Micro+ every single day. I also have to add it in the morning otherwise the level is zero after one night. Ok, I know test kits are sometimes confusing and messing things up but I trust the JBL quite well. It shows me exactly what I'm dosing!!

I'm just wondering where all the traces (Fe) are absorbed? By the plants, filter, substrate - who knows? I have checked the filters and there is no miscolour from Fe. I can hardly believe that the plants uptake is so big. Substrate - hmm...maybe.
By in fact, the tank is now running week after week very well without algae:
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=669


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## kekon

Most of Fe and Mn (so do other micros) precipitate. Canister filter also absorbs large amounts of Fe. 
I think that oxygen which is dissolved in the water in quite large amounts is the main cause of destroying Fe compounds even when Fe is chelated by strong chelators.
The mulm which is produced in the filter (looks like mud) contains lots of oxidised Fe. I was advised to clean the filter more often because mechanical media - when they get dirty - they absorb more and more trace elements. When i bagan to clean my filter more often it had good effect for plants - they got richer colors. It seems that manganese is prone to oxidation and precipitation much more than iron. Some people i know measured Mn in a laboratory and the results showed values close to zero despite high amounts of Mn added into the tank.


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## BluesBoy

> I think that oxygen which is dissolved in the water in quite large amounts is the main cause of destroying Fe compounds even when Fe is chelated by strong chelators.


Interesting. I've seen once that the Fe uptake was decreased when the CO2 was unintentional lowered for a day and perhaps the oxygen level as well (less plant perling/bubbels that day)?



> The mulm which is produced in the filter (looks like mud) contains lots of oxidised Fe.


I thought the filter media turns more red if there was lot of Fe?!? My are "normally" black/brown:
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=652
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=651
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=653


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## kekon

My filter media look exactly the same before cleaning 



> I thought the filter media turns more red if there was lot of Fe?!?


I've never noticed that but as far as i know many iron compounds turn into rust which takes brown colors. However in a planted tank the filter also gathers many other organic particles which in contact with iron cause filter media take black colors (i think it's mostly caused by bacteria activity)


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## YRus

Thank you for share.
Did you measure TDS in the experiment?
If you did it, could you list TDS values of the experiment?


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## kekon

Unfortunatley i've never measured TDS... but i can list all the values and chemical compounds i add to my tank during RO reconstitution as well as during daily fertilization:

RO Reconstitution:

Ca - 29 ppm (CaCO3) + 2 ppm (CaCl2) = 32 ppm
Mg - 9 ppm (anhydrous MgSO4)
K - 20 ppm (K2SO4)
Cl - 5.1 ppm (CaCl2)
Na - 0 ppm (but small Na amounts comes from DTPA chelator, but i don't know how much)
SO4 - about 60 ppm

Daily fertilization:

macro:

NO3 - 0.5..1 ppm (KNO3 + NH4NO3)
NH4 - 0.05..0.1 ppm (NH4NO3)
CO(NH2)2 (urea) - 0.33 ppm
K - 1..2 ppm (KHCO3)
PO4 - 0.2..0.25 ppm (KH2PO4)

micro (also daily doses):

Fe - 0.05 ppm (DTPA "Dissolvine D-Fe-7" produced by "Akzo-Nobel")
Mn - 0.029 ppm (EDTA + DTPA Mn chelator; 14% Mn)
Zn - 0.00285 ppm (EDTA + DTPA Zn chelator; 14% Zn)
Cu - 0.0017 ppm (EDTA + DTPA Cu chelator; 12% Cu)
B - 0.0014 ppm (H3BO3 - boric acid)
Ni - 0.000143 ppm (NiCl2*6H2O)
Co - 0.000143 ppm (CoCl2*6H2O)
Ti - 0.00043 ppm ("Tytanit" liquid biostimulator)


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## BryceM

Bluesboy, this is a bit off Kekon's topic, but I'd guess that your iron is forming insoluble complexes and falling to the substrate. It probably doesn't stay in the water column very long.


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## SnakeIce

The one thing that puzzles me about that is the Cl. I know cloride from things like NaCl and CaCl have quite a negative effect on some plants growth even in small amounts. When I was useing CaCl to dose calcium I had mixed results in that being any help for the cupped leaves caused by Ca shortages.

And Cl2 we try to remove from the water if we are keeping any organisms. 

I'm at a loss to explain why either would be dosed.


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## BryceM

Cl (chloride, an ion) is a required nutrient for both plant and animal growth. Don't confuse this with Cl2, which is chlorine the gas. They may be a bit similar from an elemental point of view but their chemical reactivity and biologic action are completely opposite.


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## BluesBoy

I hope this is on topic because it's how to balance makro and micro.



guaiac_boy said:


> Bluesboy, this is a bit off Kekon's topic, but I'd guess that your iron is forming insoluble complexes and falling to the substrate. It probably doesn't stay in the water column very long.


I have done some tests. At the same time I took a water sample from the substrate (under the gravel and just above the bottom glas), and one from the water column.
I have measuerd NO3, PO4, pH, kH and Fe. All are the same except the Fe. It's out of range in the substrate (on the right-hand side):
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=671

I wonder why the Fe is absorbed in the substrate and why it's still measureble by the Fe-test
 Any ideas?


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## kekon

I have some doubts concerning Cl. I used CaCl2 but in small amounts; the Cl concentration has never been higher than 15 ppm. I didn't notice any issues at such Cl level but perhaps it was too short period (2 weeks) to confirm it was safe for plants.
Some folks reported problems using CaCl2 but i think they used much of it. I've never known how much Cl plants really need. Rivers and lakes that are not contaminated and where aqautic plants grow, usually have low levels of chlorides - no more than 5 ppm (i read about it from literature available in the internet). In tap water however, we often measure much higher levels of chlorides. It's usually 10..50 ppm ppm or higher. Maybe some issues he have with our plants are caused by higher Cl levels but i'm not sure. The strange thing is that higher Cl levels in the tap are not as harmful to plants as the same Cl levels added artificially from salts such CaCl2 or NaCl for example. Anyway, i try to add no more 10 ppm Cl when i reconstitute RO water. I know that KCl (potassium chloride) is safer than CaCl2 (as a source of Cl only).
When it comes to SO4 i didn't see any negative effects even at higher concentrations close to 100 ppm.


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## SnakeIce

There is a thread here that discusses some experience with using CaCl to dose calcium to high levels for inverts. These guys also keep plants and experienced a great change in growth in a positive direction when they switched to a different source of Ca.

My understanding from reading the above thread and documents linked to in that is that Cl levels can inhibit plants ability to uptake N, and that different plants have different tolerance levels for Cl.

If you know you aren't getting Cl from any of your other dosing compounds I might treat it like a micro nutrient and take it back to a .5-1 ppm level.


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## Glouglou

Kekon, where do you keep your level of iron?


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## kekon

> Kekon, where do you keep your level of iron?


I'm not sure if i understand the question correctly... The level is at least 0.2 ppm. I always try not to keep lower values as it causes plants to have paler colors. Some time ago i confused Mg and Fe deficiency and kept 0.5 ppm of iron. Such high value didn't give any better results so it seems there should be 0.2..0.5 ppm in the water column.


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## Naja002

Hi Kekon,

I always look forward to Your posts and the results of Your experiments. This one right here on stunting is* Exactly* what I am trying to sort out right now. Your information is of Big Help.

I can Host the pictures You would like to put up on my website, if You want. There shouldn't be any bandwidth problems--my website is a pretty esoteric topic and I only get ~10 visitors/day. Just let me know. You can email them to me and I will upload them and You can link to them.

Many Thanx! for Your Efforts!


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## Bert H

Kekon thank you for a wonderful write up! :thumbsup: I have a couple of questions for you. In your opinion/experience: 1. What has caused your most problematic gsa problems, dosing-wise? 2. What, if any, kind of symptoms (algae/stunting,etc) have you observed if you've od'd on micros, particularly Fe? 3. What, if any, detrimental effects have you observed in using higher PO4 levels, ie, N of 5:1 or more?


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## kekon

Hi, Bert H



> 1. What has caused your most problematic gsa problems, dosing-wise?


I always had gsa (as well as gda) when NO3 and PO4 were too low but 10:1 NO3O4 was maintained. The problem appeared when PO4 was below 0.1 ppm and NO3 below 2 ppm. To get rid of gsa and gda i raised NO3 and PO4 to about 5 and 0.5 ppm respectively. The algae dissapeared usually within 2 weeks time.



> 2. What, if any, kind of symptoms (algae/stunting,etc) have you observed if you've od'd on micros, particularly Fe?


The only symptom i observed when Fe was high, was gda and lots of brown sediments in the carnister filter. But gda appeared only when there was something missing - especially Mg or K. 
When Mg and K were no longer limiting elements (in my case i increased Mg from 5 to 10 and daily K dose from 1 ppm to 2 ppm) all the algae disappeared - even at high Fe levels (about 0.5 ppm). I've never noticed stunting, toxicity etc. caused by higher Fe doses. 
When it comes to other micros, i observed stunting when boron was overdosed (more than 0.015 ppm of B weekly)



> 3. What, if any, detrimental effects have you observed in using higher PO4 levels, ie, N of 5:1 or more?


Higher PO4 levels didn't do anything good... It didn't speed up plants growth nor it produced richer colors on plants. The only plant that seems to love higher PO4 in my tank is Blyxa japonica. When PO4 is at least 0.5 it constantly produces small flowers but they quickly disappear. I think 5:1 NO3O4 ratio (also 10:1) is quite good. The worst case is when PO4 is high and NO3 is close to zero. This causes gsa and gda.


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## Naja002

Maybe I missed it, but what is Your Water Change schedule? How much? How often? 

Thanx!


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## kekon

Usually i do 35% water changes every week (on Saturdays) but sometimes i do 50% (especially when i make a mistake in fertilizing). I stress the importance of adding Fe and Mn to changed water. Other micros don't have to be added. I add 0.3 ppm Fe and 0.2 ppm Mn. When it comes to macro, i add 20 ppm K (per changed water volume) and 0.2 ppm PO4.


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## detlef

kekon said:


> I stress the importance of adding Fe and Mn to changed water. Other micros don't have to be added.


Kekon interesting statement that is. I'd like to know the reasons which made you think this way!

Would you therefore please elaborate a little more on why it is so important to (micro) fertilize changed water with Fe and Mn while omitting other trace?

Also, do you recommend dosing Fe all at once after the weekly water change or would you prefer adding Fe on a daily routine?

Best regards,
Detlef


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## kekon

Well, i add Fe and Mn not only after WC but also on daily basis (perhaps some folks may have misunderstood my fertilizing routine...)
The reason of such approach is the fact that doing 50% WC (or little smaller) greatly reduces Fe and Mn in the water column; they seem to be the most important micros for plants. The two elements precipitate very quickly - even when they are complexed by strong chelators. Manganese is more unstable than iron. I didn't take any water sample to laboratory to perform any measurements on manganese but some people i know did. It turned out that after adding Mn into the tank (for example, 0.1 ppm Mn) its level dropped very quickly - only after 3..4 hours the measurements showed 0 ppm of Mn in the water column !
When i added Fe and Mn (from TMG on daily basis; 250% dose) on daily basis only, plants usually became pale 3..4 days after WC. That's why i decided to add extra Fe and Mn after WC as well. Obviously if one notices that adding Fe and Mn after WC doesn't improve palnts colors it doesn't need to be performed. 

Other micros seem to be much easier to dose. Molybdenum for example, is needed in very small amounts. I dosed Mo in the range of 0.001 to 0.008 weekly and it turned out that low and higher levels of Mo make no difference (there weren't any signs of deficiency or excess of Mo). 
Boron - is very easy to overdose so adding it to changed water usually caused stunting in my tank (besides tap water also contains some boron).
Zinc - can cause Fe deficiency when present in high amounts but it seems it have very good effect on plants coloration. TMG has very little zinc and i think the creators of the fertilizer took into account the fact that tap water can contain some zinc (this is also the reason of not adding Zn after WC)


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## swoon

Hi Kekon,

First of all, thanks for providing such a great summary for all the testing that you have done. I've always found your posts very interesting and look forward to reading them.

I have just got a question regarding your findings. Now that you have tweaked the K, Mg, and Ca levels to eliminate stunted and deformed growth, did you then increase NO3 levels back up to a high level to see if that was the real cause of stunting?


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## kekon

Yes, i increased NO3 level up to 10 ppm and PO4 to 1 ppm when Ca = 45 & Mg = 10. At those levels the stunting wasn't as severe as when there were lower values of Ca and Mg (25 ppm and 5 ppm resepectively). However in a long term, even at higher GH the stunting returned but again, it wasn't so severe. It seems to me that in order to keep 10 ppm NO3 for example, GH must be at lest 8..10.
The higher NO3, the higher GH must be kept - it seems this principle is extremely important especially for many stem plants that tend to stunt at low GH and higher NO3. Rosette plants usually don't care about GH & NO3 levels.
However, having GH = 8 now i try keep NO3 at max. 5 ppm to entirely eliminate stunting. I realize some plants grow slowly at low NO3 but this can be compensated by adding 3 form of nitrogen into the tank (NO3 + NH4 + urea). Adding 3 forms of N work very well; despite many warnings from some people who say that urea and NH4 cause algae blooms. I can't see any algae in my tank when dosing urea and NH4.


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## Left C

Hi Kekon

I notice that you are using ammonium, urea and nitrate for dosing nitrogen. I know that Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen supplies plants with ammonium and nitrate. It's Guaranteed Analysis is:
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.5% 
1.5% Soluble Nitrogen 
Soluble Potassium (K2O) 2% 
- Derived from: potassium nitrate, urea (iminium salt)

Would Flourish Nitrogen be a better choice for adding nitrogen than Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is?

Thanks,

Left C


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## kekon

I think it would, but it's expensive as well. KNO3 is the most popular salt and if not overdosed, it should work well too. (1 ppm NO3 daily is quite enough)


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## Left C

Thanks, Kekon

I've been dosing one of my tanks somewhat similar to your's by using low nitrate (KNO3) and low phosphate (KH2PO4), but I've been adding a little extra potassium (K2SO4) plus increasing GH using Seachem's Equilibrium, magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (MgSO4∙7H2O), and calcium chloride dihydrate (CaCl2∙2H2O). The GH of my tap water is 40 ppm and the KH is 25 ppm. My _Alternanthera reineckii_ has twisted leaves and this is why I'm trying this regimen out..

I haven't been dosing daily. I dose every few days by using a test kit and dosing to keep the NO3 and the PO4 low.

Kekon, I got a little tangled up on what you are dosing and when. This is what I think that you are dosing. Is this correct?

At water change, you add:
NO3 - 10 ppm
PO4 - 1 ppm
K- 20 ppm
Ca - 32 ppm
Mg - 8 ppm
Fe - 0.3 ppm
Mn - 0.2 ppm

Daily, you add:
NO3 - 0.5 to 1.0 ppm
KH4 - 0.05 to 0.1 ppm
PO4 - 0.2 to 0.25 ppm
K - 1.2 ppm
Fe - 0.05 ppm
Mn - 0.029 ppm

The tank that I want to use your dosing regimen has high light, pressurized CO2 and soft water. I have 500 mL of F. Nitrogen plus about 400 grams of KNO3 and the other dry ferts. This seemed like a good place to use the F. Nitrogen since you are dosing nitrate, urea and ammonium.

I'm using Edward's PPS-Pro with one of my other aquariums. It's working well. It's a lean system somewhat like yours.


----------



## kekon

Oh no, i don't add so much NO3 after WC. My daily dosing routine is as follows:

0.5..1 ppm NO3
0.05..0.1 ppm NH4
0.17..0.33 ppm urea
0.2 ppm PO4
1..2 ppm K

after WC:

0.2 ppm PO4
1 ppm NO3
0.1 ppm NH4
0.33 ppm urea
0.3 ppm Fe
0.2 ppm Mn
20 ppm K (per changed water volume)

Alternatera Reineckii is very sensitive to NO3 excess. First of all, you should not add so much NO3 after WC (i think this is the main reason of growing twisting leaves). Try to keep NO3 2..5 ppm in the water column for some time. Seachem Equilibrium contains lots of potassium (50 ppm K at 100% dose) so if you add another K from K2SO4 source you may really have very high K levels. Most plants accept high K but some plants don't. One of such plants is A.Reineckii. If lowering NO3 doesn't help i think it is something wrong with Ca/Mg/K. High K levels may lead to Mg deficiency. Could you write exactly what amounts of Equilibrium, K2SO4, CaCL2 and MgSO4 you dose ? (we'll try to find what's wrong)


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## Left C

Hi Kekon

This is the post that I believe misled me about your NO3 amounts. Here it is.



kekon said:


> *Yes, i increased NO3 level up to 10 ppm and PO4 to 1 ppm* when Ca = 45 & Mg = 10. At those levels the stunting wasn't as severe as when there were lower values of Ca and Mg (25 ppm and 5 ppm respectively). However in a long term, even at higher GH the stunting returned but again, it wasn't so severe. *It seems to me that in order to keep 10 ppm NO3 for example, GH must be at lest 8..10...*


I'm keeping my nitrate level between 0.1 and 5.0 ppm, but I have a problem with phosphates right now. The city is adding 2.5 ppm of Sodium hexametaphosphate to keep the old water pipes from corroding. This makes the PO4 level in the tap water 2+ ppm. My GH is actually 30 ppm and not 40 ppm like I mentioned earlier. I just started increasing my GH from 30 ppm to 60 yesterday. It's a little too early to see any results. The high PO4 level is a problem. It has me stumped. I really don't want to use RO water. The reason that I started a new regimen is to not dose any added phosphate, have a low NO3 level and tweek the GH, Ca, Mg to help with the twisted leaves.

Like I mentioned, I'm using Edward's PPS-Pro with another tank and it's doing well. There's good growth and no algae issues now.

Thanks

Left C


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## kekon

I kept 10 ppm NO3 for some time only to see if it had any effect on plants. It turned out it hadn't had any influence concerning faster growth, better pearling etc. so i had decreased it back to max. 5 ppm.



> I just started increasing my GH from 30 ppm to 60 yesterday.


I think this should help but one has to wait at least 4..5 days to see the effect. In my tank any effect of increasing GH is seen usually within a week time.
High PO4 in your tap could also be a problem. I was told by DefDac that lower PO4 was better for Alternateras and i can confirm that. However, higher PO4 is not as harfmful to some plants as higher NO3. Let's see what happens in a few days.


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## Left C

Hi Kekon

I had just started thinking about and trying out a new dosing regimen about the same time that I ran across your thread. Your regimen is similar to what I am wanting to try. I had just tried a solution version of EI that is dosed daily, but I added no phosphate because of the high phosphate level already in my tap water. Within two days BBA showed up. I quit that version of EI and I did water changes, added extra Excel and only dosed 5 ppm NO3 every other day followed by a small amount of micronutrients. The BBA is practically gone now and I am just getting started to try a regimen similar to yours.

I'll do one more water change and start fresh there. I'm planning on dosing NO3 at low levels, 0 dosing PO4, but monitoring it and following your guidlines about the GH, Ca, Mg and K levels to help with the twisted leaves.

Again, thanks!

Left C


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## DBTS

Wow! This is a very imformative thread. Seeing as i think i have the same problems with my tank. Since 2 weeks ago after missing out on a weekly water change to which I add Ca and Mg to, been noticing curled, deformed, twisted leaves on my L. brevipes. And just this week stunting on my R. rotundifolia. And me thinks it might be due to high NO3 dosage and probably low GH (bad test kit so I'm assuming here). But I whenever I do add CaCO3 and Epsom salt to every water change the leaf problem do seem to be less. So i think i'll give this one a try and see for myself.


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## detlef

Thanks Kekon for your in-depth reply on Fe/Mn dosing the other day!

May I ask you some more questions?

1. I understand you add 0,5 - 1ppm NO3 per day (and 1ppm NO3 only after wc) when dosing all 3 forms of nitrogen salts (for example from "Eudrakon N", DRAK-Aquaristik) into very soft water (e.g. GH 2-3), right?

2. Which is about how much less NO3 than what you would dose using solely KNO3?

3. Since N is taken up/consumed rapidly during the course of day by plants/bacteria etc. would you please tell me when (e.g.time after dosing) and how (test equipment) you measure low level NO3 to get reliable and repeatable readings?

And again thank you very much for all the work you've done so far. My fertilizing experience seems to support your findings regarding stunted/crinkled growth. So, I'm inclined to say you've found the "missing link" in dosing regimes.
Another 10.000 plant points for Kekon, please!

Best regards,
Detlef


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## BryceM

Kekon,

I've been following this discussion with great interest. Your observations are in-line with my own observations, but I'm curious about why more people don't report issues with stunting. Many people seem to be having success with the EI method of fertilizing, even with "difficult" species. For those who don't know, basically the concept is to supply all nutrients in great over-abundance with frequent water changes to "reset" the system. Proponents of the EI method report no problems whatsoever with NO3 levels up to 40, 60, or even 80 ppm. Many people using that system dose 20 or 30ppm of NO3 per week.

It's also a well-known fact that the majority of aquarium-keepers in the United States (where the EI method is popular) have relatively hard water, usually at least GH 10 dH. I'm wondering if this is the reason why EI methods work so well for them.

Now I'm not EI-bashing here. I think the idea behind the method is sound, but that typical recommended doses are far too high. The more closely one looks at this issue the more it becomes apparent that one particular fertilizing regimen will not work equally well in all circumstances.

I'm wondering if you have any experience with green algae on the aquarium glass. My personal experience is that this is often closely tied to NO3 levels. The worst bouts that I've observed happened when NO3 got up around 40 ppm. Any thoughts?


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## Scottio

Hey kekon, I got a question about soft water. 

I just started up a new tank with AS so I just started dosing. I haven't run into any algae problems so far but a few of my rotala are showing signs Ca/Fe/K deficiency(new leaves curling and stunted).
I'm dosing ~10ppm K+ and micros every W/C (3x/week)

My water source is fairly soft however the Ca and Mg levels are approximately the same(using the State's local water quality data set):
Ca= 15mg/L
Mg= 10mg/L
GH= 4

The rest of my plants are doing better than great it's just the rotalas, which are usually my easiest plant to grow in other substrates using EI previously.

I figure since AS is probably leeching NH4 I'm holding back on the N03 for now. My tap has plenty of P04 and my plants show no signs of deficiency there. So I'm assuming N/P/K covered.

Should I be adding Ca to get the ratio to 4:1 or will this level be sufficient for the plants?

If it's not Ca, then I'll up my iron a bit, perhaps?

Thanks


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## Glouglou

Scottio do you have the other levels
NO3
PO4
Fe

An idea of K (approx...)?

Personnally I will up my Ca to the 5/1 ratio to be safe.


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## BryceM

I'd also caution against relying on city reports. Most cities have more than one water source and the exact chemical composition of the water can vary dramatically. They often use a combination of wells and surface water sources and they sometimes switch seasonally and sometimes even in a single day. The reported lab sample usually represents only a given point in time for a single location in the system.


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## aquamaniac

Hi Kekon, it seems that you discoverd something useful about plants fertilization. I tried the EI method too, but I had only problems with no end: curling plants, and many kind of algaes.
I try to mantain the P-N ratio what you advised and I also add 20 mg/L K at every water change.
I started to like the result  
But I have one question for you about micros. What is your opinion, how much CSM+B should I dose after water change or daily?

Best wishes, Aquamaniac


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## kekon

Sorry for the delay but the forum doesn't always infrom me when new posts are placed... I don't know how to fix it.. 



> My water source is fairly soft however the Ca and Mg levels are approximately the same(using the State's local water quality data set):
> Ca= 15mg/L
> Mg= 10mg/L
> GH= 4


This is not good condition for plants. I've always had issues with plants when Ca was close to Mg. Usually when there is too much Mg some leaves curl upward along edges - this is a classic Ca deficiency induced by Mg excess. I noticed that good Ca:Mg ratio is in the range 3:1..4:1. I had 2:1 some time ago and it worked well but Ca was 8 and Mg was 4. At such low values 2:1 ratio is good but if there were Ca = 80 and Mg = 40 most plants would be stunted. I mean, low Ca:Mg ratio works well when both Ca and Mg are very low but it doesn't when they are higher. So it seems you should add some Ca to reach 40 ppm for example. I think this will help quickly.



> But I have one question for you about micros. What is your opinion, how much CSM+B should I dose after water change or daily?


In my opinion adding micro on daily basis is better. Some time ago i was experimenting with adding micro after WC only, but it didn't improve anything. When i added micros after WC only (once a week) i noticed Fe deficiency quite quickly (usually within a 5 days). Adding "x ppm Fe" after WC doesn't work the same as adding the same amount of iron on daily basis (x / 7). 
I don't know exactly what the CSM+B composition is but i would add it in such amounts so that boron weekly dose wasn't higher than 0.02 ppm (or even lower - 0.015 ppm). 0.015 ppm of boron weekly was the highest value beyond which some plants got stunted in my tank.



> It's also a well-known fact that the majority of aquarium-keepers in the United States (where the EI method is popular) have relatively hard water, usually at least GH 10 dH. I'm wondering if this is the reason why EI methods work so well for them.


That's the reason why EI works well  If there is plenty of Ca and Mg there aren't isuues with growing plants. My tap water GH usually varies in 11..18 range. The highest GH is usually in the summer and the lowest in the winter. Most people in Poland also have hard water and most of them uses only tap water for their tanks. Some even have GH = 20 or higher.



> May I ask you some more questions?
> 
> 1. I understand you add 0,5 - 1ppm NO3 per day (and 1ppm NO3 only after wc) when dosing all 3 forms of nitrogen salts (for example from "Eudrakon N", DRAK-Aquaristik) into very soft water (e.g. GH 2-3), right?
> 
> 2. Which is about how much less NO3 than what you would dose using solely KNO3?
> 
> 3. Since N is taken up/consumed rapidly during the course of day by plants/bacteria etc. would you please tell me when (e.g.time after dosing) and how (test equipment) you measure low level NO3 to get reliable and repeatable readings?


AD.1 Yes, this is the dose i add but now my GH is about 7..8. However i also added it into the water of GH = 4. I increased GH in order to be in "a safe state" in case when NO3 accidentally jumps to higher levels (due to overfeeding fish, too little water changed during WC etc.) Higher NO3 in higher GH is not as harmful as in low GH (low GH + higher NO3 = stunting - this is what i was searching for over a year)

AD.2 I noticed 1.5 to 2.0 times more NO3 must be added when NO3 is the only source of N. However, i can see many plants don't care about N forms and grow well at low and higher NO3. 
I spoke to a farmer when i was buying chemical compounds to make my ferts. He told me than nowadays they never fertilized terrestial plants with NO3 only. They also add NH4 or/and urea.

AD.3. Once i checked my test kit by comparing NO3 measured in laboratory. The test kit showed 20 ppm NO3 and laboratory test 16 ppm so it was not that bad. Now i use Hagen NO3 test and often calibrate it with reference solutions with a known NO3 value (usually 5 and 10 ppm). After WC, i often measure NO3 below 5 ppm. At the end of the week NO3 is also below 5 ppm (when i add 1 ppm NO3 daily). I know it's not very accurate but sometimes i compare the colors of tested water sample from my tank with the sample of reference solution ( 5 ppm). The color of the first sample is lighter so i know it is below 5 ppm. I can also take the sample to the laboratory but i think the results will be almost the same. The only important for me is the fact than NO3 is never higher than 5 ppm which i consider to be a safe level in my tank and all the plants grow well.



> Another 10.000 plant points for Kekon, please!


Oh, thanks but i'm not an expert  ("each tank is different"... so i can be taken by surprise by my plants many times in the future). Please take into account the fact that i use pure RO water so i know exactly what elements i add.
Before i bagan experimenting i learned many things from all of you so you should be given thousands of plant points


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## detlef

Plants can always surprise you that's the fun part anyway...


The following specs are given just as information on how lean a tank can be run:

My tank water is just a little above 7ppm Ca2+ and 1ppm Mg2+, GH about 21ppm. NO3 hovering around 0,5 to 2ppm max. (calibrated kit). Tank with ADA soil Amazonia. Fertilization daily: small amounts of KNO3 as the sole N source plus KH2PO4, MgSO4, Brighty K, trace and lots of CO2 mist. Stable param's and no stunting or curly leaves for months now. Not the fastest of growth which may be due to medium light of around 2WPG. So, you can definitely go that low. I presume this is not too far away from ADA's water values...


Kekon, thanks again for taking time and replying. 

Best regards,
Detlef


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## Champagnero

Hi Detlef,

your Waterparameters are truely alot like Amano. How much KNO3 and KH2PO4 do you add daily? And what brand of trace fertilizer do you use and how much do you add?

Best Regards
Tobi


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## detlef

If my calc's are right I fertilize about 1,1ppm NO3 and 0,13ppm PO4 daily. Trace is from ADA Step1 (2ml) plus ECA (2drops) again added daily (tank is holding about 84L gross).

Since substrate is Amazonia with PS the plants should be able to get some N and P from there also (either dissolved or directly by the roots).

Nice to see another German here, hi Tobi!

Best regards,
Detlef


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## kekon

I'm thinking of setting up a nano tank in which i could test different plant species under different conditions especially in very soft water and very low nitrogen doses. I have a 12 liters tank but it seems it would be good thing to have bigger one. In the nano tank it's much easier to change all the water to set quite different water parameters (especially Ca; now i use CaCO3 but i hate grinding it in order for it to take a form of dust which dissolves very easy)


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## detlef

Hi Kekon,

long ago I found that it seems to be important including the filter media (and of course possible leakage of substrate or decaying matter) into our considerations when we try to calculate N consumption by plants. Loss of N through the activity of filter bacteria (N2 production etc.) should be avoided by all means. Otherwise you'll end up with wrong (too high) values. It could be done for example by using coarse foam cubes or carbon which do not allow for anaerobic areas. 

Kekon, what you're planning to do (nutrient uptake of different SAMs or water plant species) hasn't been done before to the best of my knowledge. So I really would like to encourage you in continuing the good work. 


Best regards,
Detlef


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## Champagnero

Hi Detlef,

thanks alot for your answer. 

@kekon

those tests would be be very interesting. From detlefs waterparameters you can see, that calcium and magnesium maybe are not that important. nitrogen seems to be the key for healthy grow. 
i'm really looking forward to those tests.

Best Regards
Tobi


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## kekon

As far as i know ADA substrates may contain Ca and Mg. "Power Sand" is a composition of Si (99%), Mg, Ca, Ti, Al. Because of that Ca and Mg in the water column don't have to be precisely balanced.


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## rs79

"And what will we get 3 days later ? Deformed, twisted and curled leaves on many plants"

What species of plants? This is normal as plants get used to an appropriate level of food; they don't go fro small leaves to giant ones without getting a bit twisted inbetween.

It's very common with crypts.

I'be never seen a plant that didn't thrive with EI. If you can name some I'll try them here.


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## kekon

> What species of plants? This is normal as plants get used to an appropriate level of food; they don't go fro small leaves to giant ones without getting a bit twisted inbetween.


These were Micranthemum umbrosum, alternatera reineckii and Rotala Indica. The pictures attached show how the plants looked like under EI fertilization. At a rough guess one might say it was Ca deficiency but it wasn't. GH was 4..5. Raising Ca only up to 45 ppm didn't help. The plants began to grow healthy when the following things were changed:

1. NO3 decreased to max. 5 ppm
2. K raised from 10 to 20 ppm
3. Mg raised from 5 to 10 ppm

The most important thing is 1. When only 2. and 3. were done - nothing happened. So it was NO3 excess. NO ONE BUT NO ONE was able to tell me precisely why the plants in the pictures looked so horribly under EI. I was told over and over again that the cause was too low CO2 but believe me - i had high CO2: KH = 3, pH = 6.0 and some of fish were suffocating from lack of oxygen ! It was a clear sign that there was plenty of CO2 but it didn't help any of the plants i've mentioned to grow norlmally. The breakthrough occured only after lowering NO3. In harder water i was able to grow affected plants with lesser problems so it seems to me there is a link between water hardness and allowable NO3 levels. On the other hand i noticed rosette plants (and some stem plants) are not sensitive to NO3-GH ratios/levels. Also, i know some people are able to grow the species i've described here in low GH and high NO3 - but i can't understand how this happens. So, if one is able not to have issues with the species in the pictures i posted here in lower GH and under EI fertilization - please send me a water sample from his tank and i will take it to a laboratory and measure for K, NO3, Ca and Mg and perhaps other elements too  (this could explain to us what other elements are important against stunting)


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## BluesBoy

This is how my Alternanthera looked some years ago with high NO3 and low micro:
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=121

With NO3 around 5 ppm and high micro it now looks like this:
http://www.bluesboy.se/viewimage.php?id=675


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## Bert H

Blues boy, how hard is your water? KH and GH?


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## BluesBoy

Bert H said:


> Blues boy, how hard is your water? KH and GH?


My kH is about 10 (190 ppm HCO3) and GH 3.4 (Ca = 20 ppm and Mg = 2.7 ppm).

Other parameters:
Na = 54 ppm, Cl = 8.9 ppm and Fe = 0.15 ppm

I have own water at the countryside. All parameters checked by laboratory.


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## Bert H

> My kH is about 10 (190 ppm HCO3) and GH 3.4 (Ca = 20 ppm and Mg = 2.7 ppm).


Thanks. The reason I asked is that I have seen the same on my A. reinickii, and I also have hard, own well water, (limerock aquifer) low on Mg. I definitely believe that those of us with hard waters, have to do things a little differently than those of us without it.


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## Champagnero

Hi,

i've a small Problem with those water parameters. Some of my plants are looking very pale. I've upped the Mg level like you did from 8 to 10 mg/l without success. Now i've added another 2 mg/l and the plants are still very pale. Especially the stargrass looks terrible.
Iron deficinecy is not possbile. I add really enough of it from EDTA, DTPA, HEDTA chelated iron and Gluconate Iron/trace elements.

  

Due to this problem i upped my Calciumlevel to 80 mg/l last week. I had a GH of 12 after that and my plants recovered from the paleness. 
After two big waterchanges, due to the fact that i don't want such a high GH the pale leaves returned with the normal dosing regime. In old threads this paleness was associated to K+:Ca Ratio but why do i need alot more Ca than you Kekon? I too use only RO Water for this tank...Is NO3 affecting this relationship too? (My No3 should be less than 5 mg/l)

Could it be from still not enough K+ ?

Best Regards,
Tobi


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## defdac

My water params: 3.1 KH (HCO3), 3.6 dGH
2x24 watts T5 over 60 litres tank.

I've upped my light and lowered my CO2 and KNO3-dosages.

First my A. reineckii looked like this (about 20-40 ppm NO3 dosed totally each week, 4-5 bubbles/sec via loopback mist and regular reactors, >30 ppm CO2, gasping and often dead fish):
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1542.html
Then I lowered to about 20 ppm NO3 per week and 1 bubble/sec CO2, and it got alot better to this:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1751.html
Still a bit wavy, so I lowered to 9-10 ppm KNO3-dosage per week, and now everything looks nice:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1755.html

I'm thinking of raising NO3 to 40 ppm and see how it reacts 8 )


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## kekon

Hi Tobi, I occasionally have the problem you've described. Adding magnesium sometimes works sometimes doesn't. Now i'm working to solve the problem. This paleness appears often when high potassium amounts are added. It doesn't affect growth speed however but some plants look ugly. You say you added more Ca and it helped. I will try to check it. If you have hard water you can safely add more NO3 than 5 ppm (the only problem with NO3 is in soft and very soft water)


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## stagius24

@kekon

I recently have many stunned tip in new leaves of amazon sword. After few week of introducing into the aquarium, they start shooting new leaves. But somehow, it is been quite long, and they haven;t do anything. Some appears wrinkle.

As you suggested: Ca = 32, Mg = 8, Na = max. 5, NO3 = 5, PO4 = 0.2..0.5, K approx. 30 ppm, Cl = 5,

I might think that my water dont have enough Ca because i didnt dose Ca and Mg. But just now, according to the water quality report, i found my tap water have Ca is 67 ppm and Mg is 20 ppm. So i think they have enough Ca and Mg for plant.

I can't think of anything else right now. I have over 65W over a 29 Gallon. With 1 2L and 1 4 L DIY CO2 and EI dosing method, I hope I achieve the balance between CO2, light, ferts .. but guess not, stunned new leaf, the tip become yellow and look transparent. Some old leaves died off ( turn yellow, with brown spot) 

I am looking for everyone advice.


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## kekon

> As you suggested: Ca = 32, Mg = 8, Na = max. 5, NO3 = 5, PO4 = 0.2..0.5, K approx. 30 ppm, Cl = 5,


Do you keep these paramers in your tank now or do you use tap water with 67 ppm Ca and 20 ppm Mg ?



> Some old leaves died off ( turn yellow, with brown spot)


This may be a sign of K or manganese deficieny. If you haven't dosed enough potassium so far (less than 10 ppm a week), you shoud do it now. Wrinkled leaves can also be caused by lack of K.


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## stagius24

i just use tap water for my tank. I replace water tank every week. 

I am dosing with EI method, I never test my water paramenter for K and PO4 because i think i have more than enough. Maybe i was wrong, I will overdose a little bit.


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## aquamaniac

kekon said:


> These were Micranthemum umbrosum, alternatera reineckii and Rotala Indica. The pictures attached show how the plants looked like under EI fertilization. At a rough guess one might say it was Ca deficiency but it wasn't. GH was 4..5. Raising Ca only up to 45 ppm didn't help. The plants began to grow healthy when the following things were changed:
> 
> 1. NO3 decreased to max. 5 ppm
> 2. K raised from 10 to 20 ppm
> 3. Mg raised from 5 to 10 ppm
> 
> The most important thing is 1. When only 2. and 3. were done - nothing happened. So it was NO3 excess. NO ONE BUT NO ONE was able to tell me precisely why the plants in the pictures looked so horribly under EI. I was told over and over again that the cause was too low CO2 but believe me - i had high CO2: KH = 3, pH = 6.0 and some of fish were suffocating from lack of oxygen ! It was a clear sign that there was plenty of CO2 but it didn't help any of the plants i've mentioned to grow norlmally. The breakthrough occured only after lowering NO3. In harder water i was able to grow affected plants with lesser problems so it seems to me there is a link between water hardness and allowable NO3 levels. On the other hand i noticed rosette plants (and some stem plants) are not sensitive to NO3-GH ratios/levels. Also, i know some people are able to grow the species i've described here in low GH and high NO3 - but i can't understand how this happens. So, if one is able not to have issues with the species in the pictures i posted here in lower GH and under EI fertilization - please send me a water sample from his tank and i will take it to a laboratory and measure for K, NO3, Ca and Mg and perhaps other elements too  (this could explain to us what other elements are important against stunting)


Hi Kekon, I have the same problem and same algae on my Alternanthera. I reduced the NO3 level close to 5 mg/L. Now it looks healthier a bit, but I can get rid this green, soft algae. This is your picture what I'm talking about : 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/attachment.php?attachmentid=5134&d=1186400181
My water has abut GH 4-6, KH 3. My general plant health is not the best, and I can't improve their growth.
I use soil under the gavel, maybe I shouldn't... 
Can I ask you how can get rid that algae on alternanthera ?

Best regards, Aquamaniac


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## kekon

I always have such algae when too low doses of PO4 and NO3 are added or when NO3 is close to 0 ppm and PO4 is present at 0.5..1 ppm. 
But in your case it seems it may be cause for too high iron level for example. How much micros do you add ? (you said you have rich substrate which can leak some nutrients into the water column)
The picture you saw was taken when i added too much NO3 and micros.


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## aquamaniac

Hi Kekon, I'll try to post some pictures about my situation. I tryed almost everything to stop this algae and to push plants to grow but with minimal result. It seems that low nitrates helps a lot. I dose 1/4 teaspoon of 7 % chelated iron and the same amount of micro: CSM+B every two days.
About macros: 0.5 mg/L NO3, 0.2 mg/L PO4, 0.5 mg/L K, 0.1 mg/L Mg every other day.

At the begining the algae look like yours, but in the meantime trasformed like you can see in the pictures. It happened once when it showed sign of weakness : I turned of the pressourized CO2 for 3 days. It seems that this algae love CO2 like plants. So I'm confused now. 
No alga = no CO2 with limited species of plants and slow growth, or CO2 with algae.
In this moment I have no idea what should I do with the water parameters. I can't find the right balance between macros and micros.


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## kekon

> I dose 1/4 teaspoon of 7 % chelated iron and the same amount of micro: CSM+B every two days.


From what i see this is a quite rich iron dose. If you have an iron test kit - measure how much Fe you have in your tank (i know it's not accurate but it has better accuracy than NO3 test kit) . If the test kit shows above 0.2 ppm i recommend to decrease it to max. 0.2 ppm. I was told (and experienced it painfully...) that dosing too much iron will cause algae you have in your tank. Several days ago i add 0.5 ppm of Fe in order to see how plants respond to it. The very next day after adding i noticed stopped growth and all the tank glasses covered with green dust algae. You have thread-algahe however, but i know from my experience that Fe excess causes green algae such like thread-akgae or green-dust algae.



> CSM+B every two days.


Could you write what is your tank capacity and CSM+B fertilizer content ? (i mean the percentage of all the micronutrients). 
Excess of micronutrients (particularly copper and boron) can harm plant to such an extent that they can't grow at all - but the algae will do.


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## puttyman70

Sorry to ask such a nu-be question in an advanced discussion but is their somewhere you can learn the math you guys are using. For example to raise K from 10 to 20 ppm how much N do you add? I understand it depends on volume of water but how do you calculate the amount of N to add? Is it possible to do this with seachem ferts? It seems like a lot of the stuff in their instructions are in mg/l.

Thanks, keep up the good work and maybe I'll catch up someday.


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## kekon

> For example to raise K from 10 to 20 ppm how much N do you add? I understand it depends on volume of water but how do you calculate the amount of N to add? Is it possible to do this with seachem ferts? It seems like a lot of the stuff in their instructions are in mg/l.


If you want to raise K by means of KNO3 keep in mind you will also raise NO3. Each 10 ppm of NO3 added by using KNO3 will raise K of 6.3 ppm. To add 10 ppm NO3 in 100 liters of water you will have to add 1.65g of KNO3. However, if you want to know how much N is added you just divide NO3 by 4.44. So 10 ppm of KNO3 is: 10 / 4.44 = 2.25 ppm N.
1ppm = 1 mg/L


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## trilinearmipmap

Thanks for an interesting thread, Kekon.

I wonder if you can help me with my macronutrient dosing.

I have a 75 gallon tank, CO2 injected to 30 ppm, 220 watts of cf lighting.

My tap water is very soft, 9 ppm total dissolved solids which is about 1/2 a degree of hardness so I am using virtually RO water out of my tap. I am doing the EI method and have had problems with poor growth and algae.

My dosing with each weekly 50% water change is as follows:

CaCO3: 3 tsp
CaCl2: 2 tsp
MgSO4*7H2O: 3 tsp
K2SO4: 2 tsp
KH2PO4: 1/8 tsp
KNO3: 1/4 tsp

With feedings my nitrates are around 20 so I am looking at eliminating the KNO3 dosing and increasing water changes to bring nitrates down to around 5. I'll also try eliminating the CaCl2 as you have suggested.

My question is, do my amounts of CaCO3, MgSO4 and K2SO4 seem about right or should I change them?


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## puttyman70

Sorry that was supposed to be all N's. Basically right now I'm dosing Seachem's full line per this spreadsheet.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ng/45119-seachem-dosing-calculator-chart.html

Its a 29 gallon tank with 4.5 w/g, pressurized c02, gravel substrate with root tabs, soft water 2dkh and 2dgh. I am getting reading of 0 nitrates and phosphate with lamott's test kits. If I am dosing these and still getting 0 I assume I need to up the dosages but how do I figure out how. I am sure you can tell me but I would like to understand the math and relevant formulas so I can do it myself eventually.

Thanks very much for your help. Maybe a text book?


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## kekon

I'll try to reply puttyman70 and trilinearmipmap in one post  (sorry for inconvenience)

*puttyman70:*

If you still read 0 ppm NO3 and PO4 i recommend to simply double the doses. Also, i think it would be wise to add Seachem Nitrogen after water change. As far as i know Seachem Nitrogen adds little nitrogen in one single dose; that's why you read so low NO3 and PO4. Because you have very soft water you don't need to dose as much N as it is needed to reach "recommended levels" such as 5..10 ppm NO3 or 0.1..0.5 ppm PO4 etc. So i think you should double the doses and wait several days untill NO3 becomes detectable by your test kit (it seems to me 1..3 ppm NO3 will be enough). In the past i also had GH = 2 and very low NO3 (about 2..3 ppm) and PO4 0.1 ppm and the tank was doing pretty well (except 2..3 plant species). If it turns out you still read undetectable NO3 and PO4 despite higher doses it will be a good thing to add KNO3 and KH2PO4 (i realize Seachem fertilizers are not cheap and dosing more and more can become quite expensive). 
When it comes to potassium i think Seachem Potassium recommended doses are quite enugh (if you want to use your own compounds such as K2SO4 or KHCO3 you can add these weekly in dry form)

As regards math, it's not difficult. Let's take old and good KNO3 and KH2PO4 (all the commercial fertilizers are made of them)

KNO3 contains 61.3% of NO3 and 38.7% of K. 
1 ppm = 1mg/l. 
29 gallons = 3.785 * 29 = 110 liters.
So if you want to add 1 ppm NO3 into your 29g tank for example, you should dose 0.18 grams of KNO3: 
0.18 grams of KNO3 contains 0.18 * 61.3% = 0.11 grams NO3. 0.11 grams NO3 / 110 liters = 1 ppm NO3. (0.18 grams of KNO3 added to 29g tank will raise NO3 of 1 ppm and K of 0.63 ppm)

Because 0.18 gram KNO3 is very low amount and it's difficult to measure using teaspons it's better to make KNO3 solution in RO or distilled water. Simply dissolve 22.4 grams of KNO3 in 250 ml disstilled or RO water (22.4 grams KNO3 = 4 tsp). 1ml of the solution will add 0.5 ppm NO3 in your 29g tank. You can add such dose daily; 0.5 ppm NO3 daily will be enough in you tank with very low GH.

The same routine you can apply to KH2PO4. I think it would be enough to add about 0.1 ppm PO4 daily in your tank. KH2PO4 contains 69.8% PO4 and 28.7% K (here, K can be neglected)
To make PO4 solution dissolve 2.5 grams of KH2PO4 in 250 ml of water (2.5 grams of KH2PO4 = 1/2 tsp). 1ml of the solution will add 0.06 ppm PO4 in 110g tank (dose 2ml daily so you will be adding 0.12 ppm PO4 each day)

If you wish to add potassium in a form of K2SO4 dose 1/2 tsp weekly (after every water change).
K2SO4 contains 44.9% of K so adding 1/2 tsp = 2.5 grams will add 10 ppm of K (this amount will be enough in your tank). You can also use KHCO3. In this case 1/2 tsp will be adequate as well.

Hints:

1. When making solutions put dry salt into empty bottle first and fill with water up to desired volume.
2. The lower GH the less NO3 and PO4 (this will not apply to many plant species but some stem plants are sensitive to higher NO3 in very soft water)

*trilinearmipmap:*



> CaCO3: 3 tsp
> CaCl2: 2 tsp
> MgSO4*7H2O: 3 tsp
> K2SO4: 2 tsp
> KH2PO4: 1/8 tsp
> KNO3: 1/4 tsp


I calculated you add the folllowing (approximately):

10 ppm Mg
70 ppm Ca (45 ppm from CaCO3 and 24 from CaCl2)
43 ppm K
42 ppm Cl

In my opinion there is too much Ca and Cl and you may experience Mg deficiency. You can use only CaCO3 as a source of Ca because the amount you use adds enough Ca (45 ppm) so CaCl2 can be wholly eliminated. It seems to me that high level of Cl (as a result of using CaCl2) may be harmful to some species. CaCl2 can be used but in smaller amounts (so as not to add more than 20..30 ppm Cl)
As regards NO3, you have to add less KNO3 so as to reach no more than 10 ppm (i know i was telling about 5 ppm but due to low accuracy of test kits they can lie and in fact it could be less than 5) 
I see you add quite high K amounts. This doesn't cause leaves deformations, twisting etc. but can contribute to Mg deficiency. I also added 40 ppm K to changed water in my tank routinely for 3 weeks but it made my plants very pale (it looks like Fe deficiency but it is not). So i recommend to use halt that dose of K2SO4 you add. If you experience such paleness on you plants also increasing Mg could be very helpful. To summarize, i think you should do the following:

1. Stop using CaCl2 but use CaCO3 (the same amount you add currently)
2. Add some more Mg (3.5..4 tsp)
3. Add 1 tsp K2SO4 instead of 2 tsp
4. Try to lower NO3

You have to perform this routine for at least 1..2 weeks to see the improvement.

CaCO3 is difficult to dissolve but it's solubility can be greatly increased by grinding it into dust by means of a mortar. It's clunky however, but it makes CaCO3 dissolve much faster (in a matter of hours). Some people dissolve CaCO3 in HCl acid but it's very bad because the reaction will produce CaCl2 which we want to eliminate.


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## trilinearmipmap

Thanks for the advice.

I will try your dosing routine for 4 weeks and watch the results.

My CaCO3 is "CaCO3 light", it is a very fine powder, it forms a cloud in the tank when first dosed but it all dissolves within one hour.


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