# Blue-Green algae



## david f (Mar 24, 2006)

I would be very interested in discussing this topic.I have done a little searching to find out how this occurs and the dangers that it can pose in water quality. (cynobacteria).

David f.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Are you having issues with this algae right now? Poor circulation is probably one of the biggest culprits.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Interesting. I moved a powerhead near that area and haven't noticed any decrease in the BGA on the glass.

I've had some BGA in my 2 year old 125 gallon NPT. It's mainly confined to the back glass. Every few months, I'll do a partial water change, and clean the glass while vacuuming it out. So far, I haven't noticed any problems as a result of it. I PP'd the tank here while back at 3ppm (redosing 2ppm twice) to keep it purple for 6 hours and that didn't kill it.

I suspect the phosphate to nitrAte ratio is off
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm


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## david f (Mar 24, 2006)

To AaronT,

thanks DataGuru,

Yes, it is concerning me a little at present.there does seem to be a a slow progressive formation over the gravel at one end of the tank,which I should have sucked out earlier.It is now creeping over some plants and on the glass. water has been hazy green for about 3 months not bad though,and blue-green algae also formed around that same time,and slowly increased.My aquarium is 200lts with a 200ltr drum that has strong water movement and a little powerhead that pumps the water back up to the tank.I don't know much about phosphate,but I do know nitrates are at un-measurable levels 0.
I recently used activated carbon for 2 days on the belief that there may have been excess nutirents in the water, and now the water is very clear,but the blue-green is unaffected. David f.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

david f said:


> I would be very interested in discussing this topic.I have done a little searching to find out how this occurs and the dangers that it can pose in water quality. (cynobacteria).
> 
> David f.


I cannot speak from a EI Naturalist tank perspective as I am still learning about EI Naturalism. However, as per my anti-algae signature tank, this is the only algae that invaded the tank after about 2 months. The tank has more than enough circulation. Some said that I should dose nitrates as my nitrates were low, others suggested increased gravel vacuuming and water changes to 2X/week to improve water quality. My nitrates(15-40 ppm since tank setup) and phosphates(5mg/L) were through the roof. With respect to test kit calibration, I calibrated the test kits and they tested as having pinpoint accuracy. And just for the heck of it after removing as much of the BGA as I could, I even dosed extra nitrates, no effect. The BGA increased its stranglehold on the tank from 1% to 10% and was beginning to spread like wildfire. Although I am opposed to use of antibiotics, out of desperation I dosed with Erythromycin. Blackouts were not an option as I had really sensitive plants like madagascar lace plant that would not have survived the blackout as per my previous experience. Also, some say that egera densa is known to release an antibiotic substance known to repel Blue Green Algae. The interesting thing is that the tank was packed with Egera densa which was growing like a weed and it was the Egera densa that was the most smeared with the BGA.

The BGA has not returned, knock on wood and its cause is still a mystery to me. There is some that say when your phosphate and nitrate level is within a certain rage, the chances of Blue Green Algae increase significantly. This is the only explanation that seems to fit my situation. However, it does not explain why other tanks where this is not the case get BGA. While low or zero nitrates could induced BGA, I believe excess phophates and nitrates above and beyond a certain range may also induce it. In nature severe BGA outbreaks are often found to correspond to excessive phosphate and nitrate spill off from human activities. I believe that there may be more than one factor at play that gives rise to BGA. I have decreased fert dosing to my tank, reduced water changes to once a week at 50%, and am keeping a close eye on plant deficiency symptoms as a gauge of what I need to dose more of. With respect to nitrates and phosphates, I believe that the heavy fish load along with regular feeding will more than provide enough phosphates and nitrates and as I said I will dose other nutrients based on plant deficiency symptoms. I believe that this is the safest way to prevent problems if you are going to go the high tech route and if that is too much effort, non-C02, low maintenance route may be the way to go as these things become less of an issue and take less effort to address.

As far as water quality, from what I understand, in nature BGA can choke out whole river systems and wreak havoc with the ecology. It will suck up every bit of oxygen in a lake or river and create dead zones where nothing survives and any fish or other underwater creature that enters the dead zone risks death. The BGA is also known to release deadly toxins, so if people swim in such lakes or rivers, they can get really sick. Even just smelling it for prolonged periods of time is known to cause liver damage.
http://www.canada.com/cityguides/reddeer/story.html?id=61db44ae-6352-48dd-992b-bb6c74d14d87&k=49676


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## david f (Mar 24, 2006)

To Homer Simpson

Thank You for your interesting reply,

In my view ,I would get easily confused with fertiliser dosing's etc,careful observations, and loose track of where I'm at overall with the high tech aquariums.
I find with Diana Walstad's methods I can keep up reasonably well with the goings on ,my aquarium 
displays.I am presuming ,nitrates is some form of nitrogen.From what I have been reading nitrogen and Phosphorus are a key food cyanobacteria use, and you where explaining when phosphates & nitrates are at a range or higher ,along with correct sunlight intensity ,fuel's an out break, which is what happens when a bloom occures in nature.In the case of the low nitrate levels the BGA must just exist as a natural aquatic organisim? .I am also starting to believe Blue-Green algae has other special requirments that makes it a 'tough little species' to get a rid-off. 

David f.


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## david f (Mar 24, 2006)

Basically I understand that Cyano bacteria are photosynthentic bacteria.that to me seem to be specialized some how in some way. They like: warm water and weather patterns that have been stable for a long time (aquarium's) ,sunlight,phosphorus,nitrogen,and they have a special gas they keep as pockets for boyancy at different water levels,and water that is high in organic content (nutrients) and still turbulant water with a lack of mixing.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Here's the best way I've found to rid yourself of BGA.

1) Manually remove as much of it as possible.
2) Do a 1/2 recommended dose of a fish medicine containing erythromycin.
3) Use hydrogen perioxide (H2O2) and a syringe to spot treat any BGA left in the tank.
4) Do a large water change either later that day or the following day.

Keep on top of doing water changes every week, keep your filter clean and flowing well and don't overfeed your fish. Basically, you want to make sure your water quality is always excellent and you shouldn't have any more issues.


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## Bikepainter (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm at war with some BGA as we speak and its seems that I'm loosing the battle unfortunately.....i've removed as much as possible by hand and decreased my light period but the stuff just comes back....quite quickly I might add.....so i'm lookin for more solutions. I don't have any fish medicines on hand, and Walmart doesn't carry that kinda stuff in the pet dept, and it'll be a week or two before I can venture the 150 mile round trip to the nearest LFS.....are there any other alternatives to getting my hands on the "erythromycin".

I'd also like to ask more about the use of hydrogen perioxide(H2O2)if I may.....I do have some of that on hand, so I could use it today, but I was curious about how much to use and exactly the procedure you use with syringe.....do you just squirt it on the algae or just beneath the algae or what??

the bulk of my BGA seems to be growing in the center of my tank....which is right under the HOB filter and in the main water current if that matters.....thanks for your help.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Yes, just squirt it on the algae under water. Don't use cups of it, think milliliters and you'll be fine.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Screwing around with fertilizer ratios is a fool's game. Provide the standard settings so the plants have what they need. Then just dose the tank with erythromycin and get over it. There's NOTHING 'natural' about an aquarium, so use the tools that work. 

Jeebus this hobby obsesses over BS....


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Its not good to dose antibiotics for all but the most important health reasons. Bacteria develop resistances to drugs when used so broadly and then can spread these resistant genes on to other virulent bacteria creating bacteria resistant to drugs. The drug that isn't broken down in the tank gets washed down the drain or back into the ground where it contacts hundreds of other species that can each develop resistances. This becomes a major problem when that bacteria infects someone and can't be cured.

I would strongly advise against using an antibiotic so lightly. Better to manually remove, or use toxic chemicals like H2O2 or "mess around with the fool's game of fertilizers" These are more ecologically and medically sound alternatives than using a drug for such a trivial purpose as clearing up an algae bloom. Its not only inconsiderate its irresponsible. 

Just look at the poultry farm industry and how many super drug resistant bacteria have recently been found in their chicken coops. If they didn't use antibacterial drugs on their chicken feed then we wouldn't have so many bacterial problems of resistance that eventually find their way to humans.

FYI erythromycin is used to treat humans who have respiratory tract infections, chlamydia, syphilis, acne and gonorrhea. It has an antimicrobial spectrum similar to or slightly wider than that of penicillin (one of the largest and most used antibacterial drugs in history). Think of the implications before using it...


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Nonsense,

Erythromycin has a half-life in the human body of about 1.5 HOURS. You have to re-dose the tank (and your body) several times because it breaks down and disappears very quickly. BG algae has been around a few billion years and isn't likely to make any major changes in its basic structure just because a few recently-evolved bipedal mammals throw an antibiotic at it now and then. Get real. Use the tools that work.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

TWood, I urge you to research how bacteria evolve changes.


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## david f (Mar 24, 2006)

Comment: 

Thank You, all
It's always handy know that 'off the shelf 'products are available to use. At this stage I would not like use any such thing to beat the problem,but to try and work out what they may and may not like
which would help us to work against possibly clearing them away.(many ideas a better than 1)

Cheers david f.


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

Sometime you have no choice and "lightly" does not work cause they are stronger than you think, so I nuke them with 1/3 more than the amound. I just think you have to do it right in the first place before they have resistance, don't do what my friend does and drag it too long. By that point antibiotics does not work very well at all. Or you just do a crazy water chage everyday while you remove them by hand in the same time, I do this now cause antibiotis are too expansive for 125g. Some people said it does not work either, than I find out that they only did it for 2, 3 days and than they stoped. The longest I did, 6 days 50% water change and that always work for me. I do find that smell smell like water melon flavor candies... by the way, the antibiotic I used were for human, lift over from my last time when I got sick. And, tetraclyn (probably spelled wrong) I got them from local fish store, they told me it is good and it was good... but too pricy.


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

You can clean them up with carbon, cause one time I forgot to take them out and not thing happen... so carbon work, and antibiotic does not stay that long in the water either. Also it kills the bacteria so I use Biozyme after a big water change. IF YOU DONT like antibiotics... try Acid Buffer, dry form, pure directly on it and you would see the algae start changing color. I read some where said blue algae appear cause the filter have not cleaned for a long time or regularly... is that true?


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Zapins said:


> TWood, I urge you to research how bacteria evolve changes.


Cite me some cases where BG algae evolved because someone like me used erythromycin in an aquarium.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

armedbiggiet said:


> Sometime you have no choice and "lightly" does not work cause they are stronger than you think, so I nuke them with 1/3 more than the amound. I just think you have to do it right in the first place before they have ********resistance********, don't do what my friend does and drag it too long. By that point antibiotics does not work very well at all.


There you go, an example within this very thread.

His friend didn't dose properly and their cyano gained resistances


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Um, no. Not some lame second-hand anecdote where we don't have all the facts. Cite a real scientific study. This issue has been around long enough that if it were a real problem there would be huge blobs of mutant BG algae wandering the streets asking people for money.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You guys are too funny. LOL

It's my understanding that most bacteria that are fish pathogens are gram negative. Erythromycin affects mainly gram positive bacteria. So theoretically, it shouldn't be as much of a problem with creating drug resistant bacteria in an aquarium as antibiotics that treat gram negative bacteria. Tho if dosed inappropriately (too low of a dose or not dosing for long enough), it could kill the more sensitive cyanobacteria and leave the more resistant ones alive to reproduce. 

Try a google scholar search on cyanobacteria and erythromycin resistance and see what turns up. I doubt you'll find any studies on it.

If you do use peroxide to spot treat, I'd use no more than 1 maybe 2 ml per total gallons in the tank. It's an oxydizer and can harm gills.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

DataGuru said:


> ..It's my understanding that most bacteria that are fish pathogens are gram negative. Erythromycin affects mainly gram positive bacteria...


Right On!

Source:http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/aquatic-plants/39621-bga-plz-advise-2.html
Posted by Moderator: Avalon at myfishtank.net.

"GRAM-NEGATIVE AND GRAM-POSITIVE BACTERIA.

Bacteria can be divided into two groups, either Gram-
negative (G-) or Gram-positive (G+). This classification is
based on if the bacteria stains (+) or not (-) in a special
staining technique - the Gram staining (invented by Christian
Gram). Positive or negative staining reaction reflects a
fundamental difference in the structure of the cell wall of
the bacteria.
ERYTHROMYCIN IS AN ANTIBIOTIC.
Erythromycin is more efficient towards G(+) bacteria
than G(-). It is one of the safest antibiotics, meaning that
it does not affect plants, fish or animals. Blue-green
bacteria belongs to the G(-) bacteria but it is a special case
with respect to sensitivity to antibiotics (i'm on thin ice
here, but I think I am correct). They are more sensitive to
erythromycin than other G(-) bacteria. Fortunately, the
bacteria important for the nitrogen cycle (your biofilter) are
of the G(-) type and are much less sensitive to erythromycin
than the blue-green bacteria. So your biological filter is
"fairly" safe.
The reason that some tanks experience an ammonia peak
after treatment with erythromycin is (probably) not because
the biological filter is non-functional. It is more likely
that it is because of the high content of protein released
from the dead blue-green bacteria which is broken down to
ammonia and/or nitrite by the "good" nitrifying bacteria in
your biofilter. This boost of protein to be broken down upsets
the finely tuned balance of different bacteria in your filter.
(Actually, if you killed of all bacteria in your tank and
filter, you would never get ammonia).

This quote was written by Tony Clementz, and can be found on The Krib.

In addition to this, you will find that as long as water changes are kept up to remove the dead stuff, along with the plants absorbing any leftover nutrients, you will notice any biofilter issues."
__________________

Aside from what is posted in this article, I believe that peoples' concerns are more around the environmental impact of the erythromycin. What happens when you dose your tank with erythromycin, do water changes, and flush the water containing residual erythromycin down the toilet? Does sewage treatment remove all the residual erythromycin? What if and we have seen it happen sewage treatment experience mechanical breakdowns and a ton of raw sewage is dumped into lakes with the residual erythromycin? Are there other bacteria that naturally exist in the environment and in natural water ways that could negatively be effected and what could the ecological consequences of this be in terms of a disruption of balance? I don't know the answers to these as I am not a biologist, but I think that such questions about the unknown often concern people around the use of erythromycin in fish tanks. It is more than just effects of the erythromycin within a fish tank/closed system.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Aside from what is posted in this article, I believe that peoples' concerns are more around the environmental impact of the erythromycin. What happens when you dose your tank with erythromycin, do water changes, and flush the water containing residual erythromycin down the toilet?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythromycin

Good grief, erythromycin is not radioactive. It lasts about 1.5 HOURS in the human body. It's fragility is what makes it useful to us as a medicine. Do you really think it does any better in a sewage treatment plant? (Not to mention in the sewage itself during the journey. Poop is mostly...bacteria!)

And then there's the matter of dilution. If I dump my 90 gallon tank containing all this dreaded EM into the ocean off the coast of California, are you going to point at BG algae still living off the coast of China as proof that I harmed the environment?

So dump it on your lawn where every teaspoon of dirt has a gazillion bacterii for the EM to exhaust itself upon. I'm starting to feel sorry for the EM...

This "heaven forbid you use anything man-made" stuff is all a bunch of FUD.

Use the tools that work.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm not so much worried about the cyano becoming resistant, after all how many cases have algae infected humans or any other creature for that matter? But rather that other bacteria present in the aquarium would become resistant. These other bacteria pose more of a risk if they gain resistances and then are released to the wild or back to our city water supply. Sure the risks seem to be low, but its not a good idea to tempt fate, the possibilities are there for things to go wrong, bacteria WILL become more resistant to the drug if used in the aquarium whether you wish to deny this possibility or not.

And Twood, you keep quoting 1.5 hours in the HUMAN body, but this says nothing about in the aquarium, how many studies have you found to support your evidence? Human bodies have enzymes that break down all sorts of chemicals, livers to process, and kidneys to excrete, I am not convinced that I have seen any of the previously mentioned organs in any aquarium. So I severely doubt a fishtank can process this antibiotic as fast as the human body can. 

Even if it could, it wouldn't make an ounce of difference since the antibiotic clearly lasts long enough to have an effect on the cyano (and obviously on other bacteria in the tank). If the antibiotic can affect bacterial populations by killing some, it only serves to increase the numbers of resistant cells that didn't die with the first few doses. Do not be fooled into thinking you will eliminate 100% of the cyano with this antibiotic, or that it will eliminate 100% of the other bacterial cells in the tank that are susceptible (gram negative or positive). If even 1 cell survives and procreates after being assaulted with this drug, then it has a high likelihood of passing on resistant genes that can and will be transferred to other bacteria species.

TWood, your comments are not well thought out, and promote the wrong idea. You seem to have too much faith in human made products, that they have no harmful or possibly ever have harmful effects. Bacteria in the aquarium will clearly gain resistances to this drug, regardless of how long it is in the water. Whether or not these drug resistant bacteria will cause a problem for you or anyone else in the future is quite possibly arguable, but it is not the wisest thing to be recommending such a practice to every person with such a trivial condition as cyanobacteria.

Some other info I think is pertinent to this discussion. I happened to speak with a general practitioner (doctor) and happened to bring up this discussion about Erythromycin and resistance. Essentially her response was that it is not a smart idea to be dosing antibiotics without a prescription from a doctor for any reason. Furthermore she brought up the interesting point that, if you were to cut yourself in the tank (possibly on the rocks, from a fish’s spines, or crushing a snail shell with your fingers) that if you get an infection it would become harder to treat with this drug. Aside from this I seem to remember a similar incident with someone on APC who crushed a snail and got a little cut on his finger, subsequently the finger became infected, and the infection was not responsive to medications. Eventually to save the finger a pretty significant operation was required to remove all infected tissue which basically damaged the finger’s function.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

TWood said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythromycin
> 
> Good grief, erythromycin is not radioactive. It lasts about 1.5 HOURS in the human body. It's fragility is what makes it useful to us as a medicine. Do you really think it does any better in a sewage treatment plant? (Not to mention in the sewage itself during the journey. Poop is mostly...bacteria!)
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I think that you took my response out of context. I posed some questions that I said that I did not have the answer to as I am not a biologist but were probably some reason(s) or concerns that people had about the spilloff of using EM in an aquarium.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Many more harmful things go into our sewer systems than a few drops of erythromycin. 

That drug was first marketed in 1952 and has been long obsolescent, although it is still used, often where patients are resistant to penicillin. There have been a few documented instances of certain streptococcus bacteria becoming resistant to it, but not nearly the number that have become resistant to penicillin. It is quite safe to use to kill BGA. 

Certain species of BGA, by the way, produce toxins that have killed numerous dogs that swam through it.

I'm sure the doctor's advice about not dosing antibiotics without a doctor's prescription is good advice when it comes to humans, but not too useful when using antibiotics that are designed for use in aquariums. If a doctor were asked for such a prescription, what would she do? What kind of advice would she be qualified to give? I know my local pharmacy sells it, but the price (with a prescription) is a lot higher than what it costs at a LFS.

State Veterinary Associations for years have tried to get antibiotics and other pet medications banned from pet shops. I'm sure that they have the welfare of the animals at heart. 

I think we should save our concerns for truly worrisome things. There are enough of them out there.

Bill


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Zapins said:


> Aside from this I seem to remember a similar incident with someone on APC who crushed a snail and got a little cut on his finger, subsequently the finger became infected, and the infection was not responsive to medications. Eventually to save the finger a pretty significant operation was required to remove all infected tissue which basically damaged the finger's function.


I stuck my finger in my tank and got sick. Bwaaaaaaah.

FUD


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

This is an interesting thread.

Often when setting up a tank with a soil substrate blue green algae appears.
In these tanks, the filtration may not be turned on and with no flow the BGA does well.
Note: there are not any fish in the tank, just snails, until the filtration is turned on.
Exposed soil seems to be a contributing factor. The BGA seems to persist until ground cover is complete. But, this may be a coincidence.

Another scenario appears in tanks with overall low water circulation. BGA will grow in the areas, almost preferentially in these areas, where there is good flow. E.g. BGA often grows in the flow path of the powerhead outlet. Having areas of localized high flow does not compensate for inadequate flow in the entire tank.

Adequate flow is not a guarantee that BGA will not prosper. This would assume only one contributing factor. 

My understanding is that adequate flow in the tank is an important factor in maintaining a healthy tank. A healthy tank can be maintained with lower flow and healthy plants.
Higher flow in a tank of moss and shrimp is probably not ideal.
The key is to have healthy plants. Additionally, too much flow can damage some plants.
Damaged plants are an invitation for algae.

Determination of adequate flow is also difficult. Flow determination is complicated because even with the same equipment flow can vary significantly. Installation and equipment maintenance are contributing factors.

Dense growth of stem plants will significantly reduce flow. A tank stuffed full of plants will have inadequate flow even if the flow is sufficient for the tank when the plants are trimmed.

If the conditions are provided for plant growth, they will grow and BGA will disappear.
BGA can smother plants and inhibit growth.
So, the BGA should be removed so the plants can grow.
Often new tanks require time for the plants to adjust and grow.
During this startup period it seems that BGA often appears.

BGA can be removed efficiently using tubing slightly larger than airline tubing.
The tubing should be large enough to not clog but not so large as to uproot the plants works well.
My view is that chemical means is a substitute method for mechanical removal.
The chemicals/antibiotics may be easier and kill the algae present. I have not used this method.
Whatever BGA that dies should probably be removed. 
Common sense would seem to indicate that if conditions are not improved the algae will reappear.

My approach for BGA is to increase flow and manually remove the algae.
Flow is increased because flow was inadequate initially. 
This assumes that other conditions are adequate for plant growth.
Once the plants take off and grow the algae is gone.
Of course, what works for one person, may not work for others as there are many variables.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

TWood said:


> I stuck my finger in my tank and got sick. Bwaaaaaaah.
> 
> FUD


TWood, I find you to be extremely insulting. Just because you don't like something I said does not give you the right to start mocking me and calling me names. You do not consider other peoples opinions in an unbiased way.

FUD is an insult - it means idiot, fool with no brains in Scottish. I seriously hope this is not the way you mean to use it - for your sake.

I will not respond further to your pathetic attempts to piss me off. You aren't worth the time it takes to write a well thought out post, you seem to think a perfectly acceptable response is to make crying sounds, are you 14 years old and incapable of expressing doubt in a logical and meaningful way? I see no reason for your playground lingo in this forum.

I think it would be wise if an administrator or moderator could please close this thread before it degenerates into something unpleasant.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

LOL

Dude, if you're going to make questionable assertions within a discipline you should at least be familiar with the related acronyms.

FUD = Fear Uncertainty Doubt

Which is what you are spreading. You made the assertion that using erythromycin in an aquarium is somehow bad. I asked for proof. You offered second-hand anecdotes of no value. I mocked your data. Seems fair to me.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I wonder if the finger thang was mycobacteria. sure sounds like it to me.

Can you imagine how many drugs get peed and pooped into our wastewater by people. and the standard advice for old prescriptions was to flush them. I'd suggest that antibiotics from aquarium are just a drop in the proverbial bucket. All my fish water goes out the back door onto the lawn anyhow.

I feel sorry for ppl in the UK and australia who don't have access to antibiotics for their fish. We're lucky to have them and should use them judiciously and responsibly. That means knowing what it is you're likely treating and dosing to maintain therapeutic levels. 

I think next time I do a partial water change, I'll just scrape off the BGA and wipe the glass down with peroxide. I've increased stocking in my 125 and am feeding a lot more, so I'm giving that time to see if it'll have an effect.

I haven't noticed a correlation between water flow and BGA. I have quite a few 20 gallon and smaller NPTs that have nothing moving water at all.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

TWood said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythromycin
> 
> Good grief, erythromycin is not radioactive. It lasts about 1.5 HOURS in the human body. It's fragility is what makes it useful to us as a medicine.


The human metabolism breaks down the drug... It lasts much longer in a tank. I wouldn't base my whole argument around that fact.

The fear of using antibiotics indescriminently is a logical fear. There are plenty of drug resistent bugs out there because we made them so.


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

> I haven't noticed a correlation between water flow and BGA. I have quite a few 20 gallon and smaller NPTs that have nothing moving water at all.


To clarify, I also have several tanks with no moving water and no BGA. Lack of water movement will not result in BGA if the plants are healthy and growing.

My observation is that if BGA does occur during the startup phase, then increasing flow to a turn over rate of around 4 times per hour in combination with daily manual removal seems to help get rid of the problem. This is only done if the additional flow will not cause problems such as uprooting plants.


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## david f (Mar 24, 2006)

In Reference to:

Bikepainter,

I think as soon as you start aggrevate blue-green algae by manually disturbing ,it becomes supended and may try to restablish ,coming back faster.

armedbiggiet,

Maybe if the filter has not been cleaned for a long time etc, the constant filtering through may release considerable nutrients that plants may not use ,offering to the algae.here activated carbon and water changes may be helpful.

thankyou ,David f.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

mistergreen said:


> It (erythromycin) lasts much longer in a tank.


Proof please.



mistergreen said:


> The fear of using antibiotics indescriminently is a logical fear.


Fear

Based on what, when it comes to using EM in an aquarium? (No one is talking indiscriminant use.)

More FUD.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I admit that I use erythromycin for stubborn cases of BGA. It works great!

Concerns about the indiscrimminate use of antibiotics would be better addressed to the livestock industry. For every hobbyist that uses a few grams of erythromycin to treat his tank once a year or so, there are probably a thousand tons being fed to livestock every day.

If doctor's concerns are that urgent, then these livestock feeding practices should be curtailed before restricting the virtually insignificant use by aquarium hobbyists.

It is true that the indiscrimminate use of antibiotics can create antibiotic-resistant bacteria. One reassurance, though, for people that are fearful of creating antibiotic-resistant monsters is that antibiotic resistance has an energy cost for bacteria. Therefore, over time if a bacteria population is not kept under constant antibiotic selection pressure, the bacteria will eventually shed their antibiotic-resistance genes and plasmids. The resistant bacteria gradually revert to the wild-type (no resistance).

I have a personal bone to pick on this subject. I had a severe cold a few years ago and delayed treatment because of my concern about indiscrimminate antibiotic use. The cold developed into a minor lung infection that caused several weeks of unpleasantness, eventually required antibiotics, and may have left scar tissue in my lungs. I believe now that antibiotics upfront could have prevented all the unpleasantness.

Also, once bacteria have had enough time to form their biofilms (in the lung, in my case), they are much, much harder to treat with antibiotics (my book, p. 69). Bacteria in biofilms may require 20 times more antibiotics than bacteria that haven't yet had a chance to set up their biofilms. It's much easier to treat an infection before it "takes hold".

Antibiotics are great stuff. My opinion: use them judiciously to keep ourselves healthy and our tanks clean. Let the US Department of Agriculture and the American Medical Association worry about abusive practices.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

TWood said:


> Proof please.
> 
> Fear
> 
> ...


Proof?
Just deductive reasoning... The tank is absent of the human body, hence it will not break down in 1.5 hours. If EM is that unstable, won't it last only 1.5 hours in the package it came in?

I'd count using EM for BGA as indiscriminant use of an antibiotic.. for sure.
The use of EM is really up to you. Nobody is disuading you. The drug resistent bug which develops over time & multiple uses of EM will probably exist in your tank only. That's why we have more than one type of atibiotics.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> I have a personal bone to pick on this subject. I had a severe cold a few years ago and delayed treatment because of my concern about indiscrimminate antibiotic use. The cold developed into a minor lung infection that caused several weeks of unpleasantness, eventually required antibiotics, and may have left scar tissue in my lungs. I believe now that antibiotics upfront could have prevented all the unpleasantness.


Antibiotics are useless against the 'cold' virus (viruses in general) , right?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Right. but a cold produces quantities of mucus in warm dark places and sets up a perfect culture media for bacteria.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

mistergreen said:


> Proof?
> Just deductive reasoning...


In other words, you're just making it up. Which has been my point all along.

Use the tools that work and don't be dissuaded by the FUD other people produce.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

My personal experience with BGA is that it usually occurred when the biofilter was new or insufficient to deal with the organics in the tank. So by simply increasing the biomedia in the filter and/or adding more plants it always went away.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok, a few minor points. First of all, erythromycin does not last only 1.5 hours in the body. It's biological half life is 1.5 hours which means that after 90 min. or so HALF of the erythromycin is removed from the body. Not all of it. Therefore, it does stay in the body longer than 1.5 hours. How long it takes to be totally removed from the body depends on the amount taken and the person's metabolism and health.

Also, just because there are no studies of possibly creating erythromycin-resistant strains of BGA does not mean that it is not possible, especially considering that there are erythromycing resistant strains of group A streptococci bacteria. So, just because it hasn't been proven doesn't mean that it isn't possible and that we should all just be dosing our tanks with antibacterials all willy nilly.

A more important concern would be what about the indiscriminate use of erytrhomycin possiblyleading to antibiotic-resistant strains of fish TB?

-ricardo

PS I'm not doing the research for anyone, so if you want to find out where my "scientific proof" is check out the leading medical journals (for ex, NE Journal of Medicine's article on erythromycin-resistant strep).


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I heard there's a killer columnaris out there. It kills really fast in addition to being resistant to drugs.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

flagg, you made some really good points.

I was also thinking in lines with the fish TB becoming resistant. The fish TB is apparently transmissible to humans so that would be a major concern IMO, to name a few.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

flagg said:


> A more important concern would be what about the indiscriminate use of erytrhomycin possiblyleading to antibiotic-resistant strains of fish TB?QUOTE]
> 
> Ricardo,
> 
> ...


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Zapins said:


> I think it would be wise if an administrator or moderator could please close this thread before it degenerates into something unpleasant.





dwalstad said:


> If someone has used erythromycin to successfully treat mycobacteriosis (i.e., fish TB), now is the time to speak up. Until then, I believe hobbyists should (without guilt) be able to use this common, garden-variety antibiotic to rid their tanks of BGA.


Game. Set. Match.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Erythromycin has been used for decades to rid tanks of BGA, to great effect..and no super strains of BGA have yet evolved. I'm not trying to be harsh...but in essence I'm with TWood here, and think that there is an almost unnatural fear of using tools we as humans have created to make life easier.
I used it about a month ago, it wiped the BGA out cold, and it's never come back. If it ever does, I'll happily use it again. Nothing else in the tank suffered at all.


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## William Beebe (Jan 7, 2008)

I had Cyano Bacreria (BGA) that was more bluish than green. After treating with erythromycin, it came back a few weeks later, looking not at all bluish, but intense green.

In your opinion could it be a different strain of BGA? Is BGA typically more bluish than geenish?

Thanks


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

William Beebe said:


> I had Cyano Bacreria (BGA) that was more bluish than green. After treating with erythromycin, it came back a few weeks later, looking not at all bluish, but intense green.
> 
> In your opinion could it be a different strain of BGA? Is BGA typically more bluish than geenish?


I think that BGA, like other plants (or, semi-plants  ) can have a different appearance depending on the environment or the condition of the specific organism.

If what you are seeing is a different strain or species (there are thousands) it should still respond to erythromycin.

BGA will recur if the conditions that let to its appearance originally are not corrected.

Good luck!

Bill


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'm almost certain that what you were seeing was an algae mixture. Part of it was blue-green algae, which is actually cyanobacteria, and therefore, can be killed by some antibiotics. The other part was a true algae for which antibiotics would have no effect whatsoever (I've tested this).

You killed off the blue-green leaving a green algae behind.

I once had some matt algae examined by a professor in the biology department. He detected at least 6 different algae species and cyanobacteria in the matt.

Blue-green is blue-green, slimy, has a distinctive odor, and sometimes contains bubbles.


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## ddi (Mar 29, 2015)

AaronT said:


> Here's the best way I've found to rid yourself of BGA.
> 
> 1) Manually remove as much of it as possible.
> 2) Do a 1/2 recommended dose of a fish medicine containing erythromycin.
> ...


I too have had a Huge learning curve with cyano bacteria. It took over my planted tank. I ended up ripping everything out except fish. it came back with a vengeance. I killed it using erythromycin, but then my tank was over run with brown diatoms. horrible. 
my tank has been clean for a long time but am beginning to notice it coming back. I am using 3% peroxide to spot kill it but have noticed that when the cyno dies it produces a nitrite toxin and stresses out the fish. so the huge water change is a must.
I have a really nice planted tank now and thought that adding a couple of bubblers would help keep the cyano at bay, but am finding out that these are detrimental to plants. so I replaced my 5 year old filter and am hoping this will fill the bill. btw my water seems to check out fine. I am at a loss about the cyano blooms


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## herns (Aug 28, 2007)

one of my tank had been a foothold of BGA for the past 3-4 mos. But every time I treat with Maracyn (erythromycin) they go away and come back slowly after a month.

My tank has no fish. Lots of plants and moss. CO2 is optimum. I think it comes from the lighting or photo period.


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## Jarrod987 (Aug 18, 2015)

Sent you a PM on my experiences.


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## Crooks (Sep 26, 2015)

The Blackout:

- Turn off the lights, maybe cover your tank with something: a towel or a newspaper.
- No or very little feeding (just for safety measures)
- Tank stays like that for 5 to 7 days
- Water change when the BGA died off (which is like the second or third day)
- When the time has passed just turn the lights on. I wouldn't personally do waterchanges on NPTs as it just messes with plant growth, but I don't know your tank.

Consider removing most of the algae beforehand. You might be able to cut the time period down a lot; I feel like the prolonged time period helps the plants stabilize -five days without BGA frittering away on their Ns and Fes and whatnot.

Just thought I'd add this method (which you probably already know??) to the mix in here.

Does not fix systemic problem


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