# Request your advice/comments for my "schooling" fish



## Osteomata (Jan 11, 2005)

Yes, I read the entire sticky on schooling fish, but I would love to hear a bit more comment on some specific fish I am considering.
My tank: 
15G high (20x10x18) with variety of stems, rosette, foreground plants. 
ph 7.4, GH 8, kH 5, temp 75
DIY CO2
Currently has a few otos, a bulldog pleco, and a golden myst/apple snail.

I intend to get 7 small fish of the same type. I would like a schooling fish, but I recognize that a small group in a tank this size will probably not school much. 

My top contenders so far:
Cardinal Tetras
pros: beautiful coloration, two lfs near me have them, in one of them they school well, in the other not at all.
cons: I hear they are a bit delicate, and most sites suggest they are about 50% larger than neons when mature.

Neon Tetras
pros: the smallest bio-load of my three choices, relatively hardy
cons: not as pretty as cardinals, dont see them schooling in the lfs at all

Harlequin Rasboras:
pros: when I observe them in the lfs, they seem to hang together more than the neons, and in some internet pictures they are beautiful, with lots of red.
cons: not sure if the coloration will brighten up to match some of the amazing pictures I see on the internet. In the lfs, they are pretty dull, very little red. Also, they appear to be the biggest in body mass of the three, with the biggest bio-load i guess. 

Any comments? I can't seem to nail down max sizes for each, every website lists it a bit differently. Some sites suggest that neons and cardinals are the same size, others suggest cardinals get about 50% bigger.

I have researched a bit on nearly every fish listed in the schooling sticky, and narrowed it down to these, though if I decide to abandon a schooling fish, I might go with several micro-rasbora or those tiny sparkling gouramies.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

It's really nice to see someone who researches the options so thoroughly before buying.  

Of your choices, I'd personally go with the Neons. Part of the reason you don't see much schooling activity in the store is because they've just been transfered and aren't used to their surroundings yet.

It is true that the Cardinal's get a bit bigger than the Neon's, but I wouldn't say 50% is an accurate number.
The Cardinal's are also happier in a tank larger than a 15 gallon, and given their sensitivity, if something changes in a tank that small, it will be more drastic.

Another fish that may not have been mentioned in the other thread is the Glowlight Tetra. They are about the same size as the Neon, and may be longer lived, not to mention being a pretty fish.

I'm not real familiar with the Bulldog Plec, but I'd say that's really pushing it in a tank that small, unless you do lots of water changes and keep a close eye on your parameters.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

I would go with the cardinal tetras. They are not much bigger than the neons and they seem to school much better plus are better looking. I dont find them sensitive at all. They have lived thru 2 ich treatments and various other mishaps in my tank. When they get to be adults u will love them. What about trying some pygmy rasbora's? They are so small and u can easily get 15-20 in that tank.

see this 
http://www.azgardens.com/misc_fish.php

scroll down and check them out they are cool when you have alot of them.


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

I would go with a school of Cardinal tetras. I find them much more attractive and not as tempermental as the overbred neon tetra.

However, the glowlight tetra would also be a great choice -- it is the hardiest of all the fish listed. It is a little retiring and tends to stay at the lower portions of the tank, though.

Carlos


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

cardinals if you have a lot of greens in your tank.


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## david lim (Mar 30, 2004)

I've never had too much success with cardinals in smaller tanks, even heavily planted. I find that they are more brilliant in larger tanks where they have room to school. I would have to vote for the neons in this case.

OTOH the maculata microrasbora I've had great success with at tanks down to 10 gallons. I've had a group of 12 with me for almost 2 years and have had no problems. They were moved from a 10 to 29 and now are in a 58 g. The only problem is that they are difficult to find locally.


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## Osteomata (Jan 11, 2005)

Wow, interesting and somewhat unexpected responses. I new Tsunami was partial to the cardinals, but I kinda expected a strong Harlequin rasbora vote. So far 3 for Cardinals, 2 for Neons, and some misc suggestions. Anyway, couple of additional questions:

JanS: 
- The Bulldog Pleco is sometimes called a rubbermouth pleco (has a few other common names as well). I am not certain I have identified him correctly since he does not have the coloration of the pictures I have seen on the internet. In any case, mine is about 2.5 inches long, and does not seem to be growing, he may be fully matured and at maximum size (hopefully). Trying to post a picture, having some problems.

- Regarding "pushing it on a tank this size" I am calculating for about 20 inches of bio-load. If I assume my 7 "schooling fish" are 1.5 inches, plus a 2.5 inch bulldog pleco, and five 1.5 inch otos, I think I am about right. Am I making a false assumption somewhere which leads you to believe I am pushing the limit?

Chiahead: Regarding the pygmy rasboras: excellent suggestion. The only concern I have is that in the schooling fish sticky, someone mentioned that several of the very small rasbora species do not actually school. He included Rasboras brigettie and some other species, including the microrasbora family. Have you had experience with pygmy rasboras? Do they school? Very interested in hearing about these.

David Lim: Do your boraras masculatas exhibit traditional schooling behavior or are they more shoaling oriented?

One more question for all: Anyone have any experience with the Scarlet Badis (Badis bengalensis sp. Scarlet)? They are in the same link that Chiahead posted, and listed as max size 3/4 inch. I'm not considering them as a schooling fish, but rather as a pair for some future small tank. Any comments?


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## david lim (Mar 30, 2004)

Osteomata said:


> David Lim: Do your boraras masculatas exhibit traditional schooling behavior or are they more shoaling oriented?


You're becoming very well informed. Excellent questions. The maculatas are not great schoolers, but personally I find smaller tanks to be more difficult for fish to display the schooling behaviour that you might be looking for. I just wouldn't want for you to be disappointed . A 20 gallon long is just about as small as I'd like to go for schoolers. Anyway, it's all but an opinion from me you might find consider things differently.

Scarlet badis are very territorial and aggressive towards eachother and small invertebrates. However, others might have more experience than me with them.

(btw, please call me David  thanks!)

David


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

I have not oowned a tank with the pigmy rasbora's but my friend does and the school very well. They were in a 46 gallon bow front with lots of other schoolers. I am thinking about ordering 15 or so for myself. U may want to look at those mini panda cories as well. The pygmy's look awesome when schooling by the way


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## david lim (Mar 30, 2004)

chiahead said:


> I have not oowned a tank with the pigmy rasbora's but my friend does and the school very well. They were in a 46 gallon bow front with lots of other schoolers. I am thinking about ordering 15 or so for myself. U may want to look at those mini panda cories as well. The pygmy's look awesome when schooling by the way


Yea. I've also found them only to really school with other fish (ie. small R. espei), but they kinda just cruise and sit around when in a non-schooling tank (ex. Amano bk. 2 pg. 112). Maybe I need to get more maculatas? I only have 12, but even when I had 20 I don't remember them schooling much. Oh well, better find out the facts and get more again b/c it was long ago . Actually, when the R. espei got larger they stopped schooling too for me and began displaying to eachother.

w00t!!! Post 100!!! I didn't think I'd make it . k. time for bed.


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

Badia benegalensis is a perfect candidate for your 10g, from my experience. A reverse trio (2 males, 1 female) worked very well in my tank. Although males will display each other and protect their own territories, these fish also seem to be very social and /need/ this sort of 'tense' communal living.

Unfortunately, one male and the female got sucked up into the filter intake (they're tiny!!). The lone male is now showing very abnormal behavior by swimming around in the open all the time and tagging along with a couple of half black red tailed guppies. 

Make sure to get more than one.

Carlos


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

I think your choice kind of depends on the level of activity you want in your tank.

If you want swimmers, the Harlequins are the way to go.

For more stationary, "looser" groups, any of the tetras would be fine. I am partial to the glowlights myself, they get some truly stunning color at full size.

Edit: Carlos, I think you've got the nomenclature wrong on the scarlet badis...I believe it's Dario dario now.


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

Actually, I think according to the IBC, it is _Dario benegalensis_. They think the Scarlet Badis is different enough from _Badis badis_ (now _[Dario dario_) to give it its own species name. 8)

At least that is what I read last night while researching wild Betta sp. Now, I want imbellis, Macachai, /and/ coccina. Ever thought of those for your 10g? 

Back to the schoolers...

Carlos


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## Osteomata (Jan 11, 2005)

Well heck, I'm on the fence. I really want to see a bit of schooling behavior, but I love the idea of limiting my bio-load with the dwarf rasboras. I'm gonna hold off on this decision until I figure out what to do with all the extra cherry shrimp that I am expecint in the mail tomorrow. Hopefully some of our fellow SFAPC members will take them off my hands at a soon-to-occur meeting, heh.

Carlos, I did briefly consider a betta, but that will be for a futre tank I think.
Jack


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## david lim (Mar 30, 2004)

tsunami said:


> Actually, I think according to the IBC, it is _Dario benegalensis_. They think the Scarlet Badis is different enough from _Badis badis_ (now _[Dario dario_) to give it its own species name. 8)
> 
> At least that is what I read last night while researching wild Betta sp. Now, I want imbellis, Macachai, /and/ coccina. Ever thought of those for your 10g?
> 
> ...


beautiful bettas. We had some coccinas before at my lfs but I didn't have the right tank for them at the time.

Also licorice gouramis if you can find some would be a good choice.

Both will be able to snack on the baby cherries.


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## discus (Jul 20, 2004)

Im voting harlequin 
I have both harlequins and cardinals although the colour of cardinals is amazing the harlequins school closer together and are more fun to watch espacially where there is water movement (they love swimming against the return of the filter) and yes they maintain their colour and do not become washed out.
Also i found that in my 75 gallon 7 to 10 harlequins make a bigger impact then do the cardinals. 
Note that the harlequins stay near the top whereas the cards stay more near the bottom third of my tank.

Theres my 2 cents.

Good luck in your decision
Discus


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

Hmm. I remember the story going something like this:

We had 2 Badis spp. in the hobby, presumed to be Badis badis badis and B. badis burmicanus. B. badis burmicanus I believe was moved into synomy with B. ruber. Dario dario was called "Badis sp. 'Scarlet'" in the initial imports a few years back, and someone made an attempt to describe it as "Badis bengalensis". This was rectified a little later when a new genus and species were erected for Dario dario, which fishbase says is the proper species name for the fish in question.


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## Aaron (Feb 12, 2004)

Carlos and Error,
you guys are both right, kinda. The genus Dario was erected for the "Scarlet Badis". 

Dario dario is a synonym for Dario bengalensis

... I think, I could be totally wrong.



As for schoolers, I'd add P. simulans, the Green Neon. 

I found you get max schooling behaviour when there is a larger fish in the tank. (dwarf cichlid or something) You can imagine why this is.


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

Aaron said:


> Carlos and Error,
> you guys are both right, kinda. The genus Dario was erected for the "Scarlet Badis".
> 
> Dario dario is a synonym for Dario bengalensis
> ...


 Dario bengalensis was never a species name to my knowledge. As far as I know, the only four names for the scarlet badis have been Labrus dario, Badis sp. "Scarlet", Badis (badis) bengalensis, and the correct Dario dario.

Badis badis is a much larger fish than Dario dario. My males got to be almost two inches and were predominantly blue, but the Dario dario I had topped out at just under one and were exactly like the pictures on fishbase that I linked to above.


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## Aaron (Feb 12, 2004)

Error said:


> Dario bengalensis was never a species name to my knowledge. As far as I know, the only four names for the scarlet badis have been Labrus dario, Badis sp. "Scarlet", Badis (badis) bengalensis, and the correct Dario dario.


There is a fifth name given to this fish, the BADDEST BADIS! LOL! That's what we called them when they first came on the scene. My friends and I are dorks when it comes to cool, new stuff like this.

I can't recall where I saw Dario bengalensis, but it is out there, somewhere. I've been following this genus for a while as it is one of my favorites.

OKAY, Back to schoolers! Sorry Osteomata for hijacking the thread.


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