# Setting up a CRS breeding tank



## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

I want to setup a breeding tank for CRS and so I had a few questions, I'll start off with what I'm planning on doing.

I want to use this tank: ADA 60cm Cube Garden trimless tank ~18 gallons
Lighting: Hadn't planned this out yet... definitely 35-40 watts for the plants
Substrate: ADA Amazonia
Plants: I want to cover the bottom with Utricularia graminifolia and something else in the back, maybe anacharis or rotalla along the back side?

*1)* Lighting - I like the idea of a moonlight, any downside to this or reason not to?
*2)* CO2 Pump - Not sure yet... I'm confused at what all is needed, but maybe the ADA stuff, any reason not to?
*3)* Plants - Do any of those plants sound like they would be an issue for CRS? Is there any plant that they clearly prefer?

*Big Question* - I don't want to have just CRS alone, shrimp are affected easily in my experience from changes in the biological nature. I want to have some kind of fish in there to help maintain things in general. I have 4 right now in another aquarium including 2 honey dew gourami's, 1 powder blue, and 1 other, they don't have any issues with the ghost shrimp or seem to be attacking them, ever. My ghost shrimp are doing very well actually. *Can I have a few honey dew gourami's in a tank where I'm breeding CRS?*

Any advice at all is appreciated on this, I really like how they look.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

*1. Lights:* Minimal light is all that's required. Shoot around 2.0 wpg. The moonlight will not be a problem.

*2. CO2: *CO2 isn't completely necessary for Crystal Red Shrimp (CRS) unless you need it for plants, and want to lower the pH further. It doesn't have to be an ADA pressurized system, as all pressurized systems do the exact same thing, which is proving CO2 gas to the tank.

*3. Plants:* Your plant selection looks good. If the goal is to have CRS breeding tank then use easy hardy plants that don't require much fertilization. Mosses, anubias, and java ferns are what I recommend from my experience. If you have fast growing plants you'll be going in the tank and disturbing the system with clippings, uprooting, and rescaping of plants. So that's not good. Stick to slow growing, low maintenance plants.

*4. Fish Selection:* I personally would only keep Otos and Corycat fish in my CRS tank. These two fish never eat any baby shrimp, and are a great clean up crew. The fish you have above, may eat some babies from time to time if they happen to crawl out of the plant cover. Remember baby shrimp are about 1mm long and if it can fit in a fish's mouth, then it will probably be lunch.

*5. Substrate:* It seems ADA substrates or Florabase substrates that lower the pH are commonly used to aid in reproduction. I've used Eco complete with positive results, but recently switched to ADA Aquasoil to see the difference in breeding rates. The difference with using Aquasoil and the lowering of PH & KH has helped tremedously in breeding.

*6. Filter: *Any filter will work, but cover your intakes if you want to prevent any shrimp from getting sucked into a filter. I use a canister filter with a fine media mesh bag covering the intake, and sponge filters on during the day. Air driven sponge filters are found commonly in breeding tanks and are recommened to safe guard against any shrimp from getting sucked into a filter intake. I believe the extra oxygen/aeration from the sponge filter helps with breeding rates in my experience.

*7. Food:* I feed them Hikari Algae wafers, Hikari Crab Cusine, the occasional frozen bloodworm, and Skirakura EBITAMA shrimp food that Gabezone sells. These are fed once daily.

*8. Water Parameters: *These are the water parameters I've kept them in with success.

Temp: 66-72F degrees (20-22 Celsius)
pH: 6.4-7.0 via pressurized CO2 and Aquasoil
KH: 2-3 degrees
GH: 4-5 degrees

Good luck! 

-John N.


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

Wow, John, I have to thank you beyond belief for that help... that reply was one of the kindest "gestures" I've received.. you pretty much gave me *all* the information I wanted and in a simple easy to read manner, and much more... thank you very much 

Edit: Just became a supporting member, your post is very helpful and I'm glad I posted here now.


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## dhavoc (Mar 17, 2006)

dont put the gourami's in the tank, they are slow meticulous hunters and will pick off babies (with their coloring they stick out like a sore thumb). stick to sucker mouth fish like oto's, in fact a single oto is all i have in my CRS tank. maybe pygmy corys would work but you dont want to have excess food in there. the oto works best because it eats the same thing as the crs, algae, algae wafers and blanched zuchini or spinich. good luck, they are not easy to get to breed in large numbers but worth it.


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

Ok, excellent, food is the one the many things I still need to spend some time researching one - I'm pretty sure I'll feed them a variety of things and try to come up with a better mixture of what they prefer over time.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Ankit - Thank you so much for becoming a supporting member! I'm glad I could help out.

As for food, I'll update and include that as item #7 to my original post. But let's not stop the discussion there, I would also be interested in hearing from others as to what their #1-8 list for CRS care consists of. Perhaps future posters will use the same itemized format so it's easy to read and compare inforrmation? 

-John N


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

Yeah, I'd definitely be interested in hearing what others have to think. I've got a little special way of keeping track of my project, and possibly that of other CRS breeder's, I'll unveil that soon enough 

As for fish, I think I'll take your advice and stick to Oto's (for sure) and quite possibly some Cory's.

Question though - did you setup some kind of net for them or something for them to go in and eat when they're still small and need protection or just easy access to food or something like that?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I drop the algae wafer bits in the open, unprotected. The corycats, otos, and shrimp coexist without any problems. As soon as the shrimp sense the food, they start crawling in out of cover and find the food pretty quick. The fish ocassionally come out and eat with them, but usually they just swim around digging at the substrate for food. 

I do use a mesh net to cover the intake of filter because I didn't like picking the shrimp out of my canister filter, and wanted to save 100% of any born shrimp.

-John N.


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## dhavoc (Mar 17, 2006)

mine seem to like algae wafers the best. I also feed Hikari crab bites and that CRS food from Japan, though they dont seem to go after that as much. a bit of blanched spinich and zuchini and your good to go. basically any food that doesn't contain copper is fine. a couple of dried oak or similar leafs also seem to work great, the shrimp eat the micro-organisms feeding and growing on the decaying leaf.


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

*Utricularia graminifolia might eat your CRS!*

IIRC, Utricularia graminifolia is part of the bladderwort family that is carnivorous. You might not do too well with CRS in there:axe: hehe, your plants eating your shrimp...that's funny

read this article


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

Do you think they would eat it fast enough for anything to happen? I know that in my experience with plants like the Venus Flytrap, they're a bit slower at eating them, however the chemicals they use to grab onto the microorganisms may be strong enough for small shrimp.... lol, that is funny

Anyway, now that you've given the idea of not doing it, I think you're right. I need to plan out how I'm going to setup this aquarium. I think I want a row or two of Rotalla in the back, maybe two "rows" on the sides of anacharis. I'll arrange some large rocks with one or two java ferns in the middle of the tank and possibly some dwarf hairgrass to create a carpet and show the changes in elevation clearly. I think I'll put an airstone in there somewhere as well so I can be sure they're getting air at night.


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## fish newb (May 10, 2006)

*1) Lights:*. I agree and would stick to low or medium light, I have read that sometimes too much light can stress fish and shrimp out.

*2) CO2:* Also agreed. CO2 is good for plants tho I personally am a bit different on the CO2 subject and do not use it at the moment... If you do use it Don't use too much or you could kill your shrimp, if you aren't too fond of the idea of having a co2 tank in your room you could use flourish excell same with CO2 tho, don't overdose these shrimp are PICKY!

*3) Plants:* I would also suggest keeping the plants very simple because the goal of the tank is to breed CRS right? So moss is one of the easy plants that looks the best anubis as well like stated. I'm not too partial to java ferns but the lace one is nice.. I am a moss freak so that's what is in my tank also have some Vallis and a few random stems that I've gotten as free bees that will be going sooner or later...

*4) Fish Selection: *If you are trying to BREED CRS ottos are the only fish that is prooven not to eat babies, Dwarf corries may be OK as well, but are pretty much pointless unless you are in love with them. Full sized corries will eat shrimplets and with the clutch size of CRS it wouldn't be smart to keep them together if you are trying to breed them.

*5) Substrate: *I would second Florabase and ADA soil, I have florabase locally and have some of that in my 55g, In my 10g I'm thinking of getting ada aquasoil but might just get florabase again.... as stated above the reason these are usually used is to lower PH

*6) Food: *I feed them Veggies such as squash, cucumber (not as liked as the squash), various flake foods (whatever is around) Rain's shrimpy bisquits AWSOME STUFF!! I'm not sure if she is a member here but if not she is on The Planted Tank - Articles, Forums, Pictures, Links and just search rain's shrimpy bisquits or pm her and you will be able to find them. I also plan on feedin blanched veggies such as spinach in the future. There is tons of contreversy on the shikira products so Gabezone stopped selling them to my knowledge.

*7) Other Parameters: *Not sure what my current parameters are I think ph is around 7 others no idea... Temp is 73 at the moment since they are stuck in my 55g at the moment with my cherry population (I just actually recieved my CRS yesterday\\/ and would have to say it's the best money I've ever spent in this hobby so far.... they own cherries!) But I've done lots and lots of reading on them so I feel I know a thing or two:-\"

Also, 


apistaeasy said:


> IIRC, Utricularia graminifolia is part of the bladderwort family that is carnivorous. You might not do too well with CRS in there:axe: hehe, your plants eating your shrimp...that's funny
> 
> read this article


That isn't true, I have read people posting this but It won't bother shrimp so don't worry.....

Good luck and have some fun!

-Andrew


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## FobbyBobby23 (Mar 8, 2005)

I think the biggest challenge with keeping shrimp like CRS is maintaining a low enough temperature. This isn't as much of a problem during the winter though...but once summer rolls around


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## fish newb (May 10, 2006)

FobbyBobby23 said:


> I think the biggest challenge with keeping shrimp like CRS is maintaining a low enough temperature. This isn't as much of a problem during the winter though...but once summer rolls around


Yeah that is true... But its winter now... And if needed I could play with the central air unit of my house

They are worth it so far in my experience...

-Andrew


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

apistaeasy said:


> IIRC, Utricularia graminifolia is part of the bladderwort family that is carnivorous. You might not do too well with CRS in there:axe: hehe, your plants eating your shrimp...that's funny
> 
> read this article


I've been reading a lot about this and have found information from people saying that it won't eat shrimp, even the smallest ones. The openings are only large enough for microorganisms.

Take a look at this forum: The Planted Tank Forum

One person is raising endlers in a tank with these without issue and one person had a carnviorous plant enthusiast speak to his group, both instances it's supported that they won't eat the shrimp.

Now, I'm not sure how it works, but if it releases a scent or has something that sticks to the shrimp like a venus flytrap does IIRC, then that won't be good. In any case, I won't be using it on this tank, maybe my discus tank though that I'm planning for 

I'm still thinking if there's a good way to incorporate this plant into the tank, I really like it and would love to use it, but I don't think that shrimp particularly enjoy this kind of surface. They'd prefer more of a moss or substrate bottom so they can grip onto something and feel secure.


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

fish newb said:


> *3) Plants:* I would also suggest keeping the plants very simple because the goal of the tank is to breed CRS right? So moss is one of the easy plants that looks the best anubis as well like stated. I'm not too partial to java ferns but the lace one is nice.. I am a moss freak so that's what is in my tank also have some Vallis and a few random stems that I've gotten as free bees that will be going sooner or later...
> 
> *4) Fish Selection*:If you are trying to BREED CRS ottos are the only fish that is prooven not to eat babies, Dwarf corries may be OK as well, but are pretty much pointless unless you are in love with them. Full sized corries will eat shrimplets and with the clutch size of CRS it wouldn't be smart to keep them together if you are trying to breed them.


*Plants:* You're right, simple will probably be the best. I'm planning on getting some driftwood pieces and covering them in java moss. I've read that the baby shrimp will benefit from the microorganisms found in java moss and so I'm thinking of putting plenty of java moss among rocks and driftwood as well as some moss balls. I think I'll be planting rotala along the back glass to create a nice scenery in the back and a java fern or two on each side, along with some pellia in a place or two. I want to create a surface that they enjoy, a variety of plants that they like (mosses, pelia, etc.), and create plenty of hiding spots so they can avoid the light if they choose. That last hiding spot part is something I need to work on. I wanted to avoid just letting java moss grow in the whole tank uncontrolled because then I'm afraid that trimming it might be hard since I'll have to be careful of small shrimp.

*Fish:* An otto is my current plan just to keep the glass clean of any algae, I like these little guys and they seem to do a good job 

Basically, while I want to breed the CRS, I also want to create a nice looking tank. I feel that if I can keep it looking clean, I will be able to create an environment that I enjoy and can *maintain* stable conditions under. If it's not something I enjoy and care to monitor carefully, that could be a bit harder. Anyway, we'll see this all fall into place soon enough


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## Ankit (Dec 9, 2006)

FobbyBobby23 said:


> I think the biggest challenge with keeping shrimp like CRS is maintaining a low enough temperature. This isn't as much of a problem during the winter though...but once summer rolls around


Eek, sorry for the 3rd post guys, but if I crammed all these things into 1 post, it would be very hard to follow.

From what I've seen, this is definitely one of the hardest parts and an issue that many of the breeders face, especially those in warmer places.

Here is a 2 part article teaching you how to build an inexpensive cooling unit:
1 - ShrimpNow !!! - Content - Resource Library - Everything about the hobby - Equipment & D.I.Y. - The Making of Mini Chiller
2. - ShrimpNow !!! - Content - Resource Library - Everything about the hobby - Equipment & D.I.Y. - The Making of Mini Chiller Part 2

I may build one or two of those, but my concern with piping is always that it will come loose or have some kind of issue and then all the water will be pumped out of the aquarium, or at least a good portion of it!

I really need to think this part through carefully, the hottest of summer days when I'm not at home is my concern, when I don't have the a/c on. I want to maintain a temperature of 73F at all times if possible.

Getting a chiller is an option, albeit an expensive one! I'll have to talk to some people and even some of my professors to devise a proper solution with maybe a failsafe to make sure water doesn't leak out, that would be very bad!


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## dhavoc (Mar 17, 2006)

if you want to maintain 73, your pretty much going to have to buy a chiller. the DIY chiller is good for maybe a 10g at the most. i have a few of those iceprobe 50w chillers and found i needed to run 2 on my 15g CRS tank to keep the temp in the 71-73F range, especially on weekends when the ac is off at the office and the temps can climb to 90+ in the summer. with the lighting you plan to use, you are going to be fighting that added heatload also. i recently switched to a CL-85 peltier chiller and even that wasn't enough, so i have an iceprobe running also in the daytime. for your 18g, i would try one of those 1/15 or 1/20hp models that are comming out for smaller tanks. peltiers are nice, but you cant beat a compressor setup for btu output. you can get one for 350 or so on e-bay, or online. I have one comming in to try on a 30g breeder i just setup. if that works well, i may get a 1/4 or 1/2hp for my 120g planted. mosses and most plants just seem to grow better in lower temps (the 120g hovers around 81-82F due to the lighting and my location)


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## bijoon (Nov 20, 2006)

What about computer fans if you provided enough flow of air over a tank? I found some that can produce about 130 CFM and run off of 12 v DC. If I cant find a cheap solution to cooling I can pretty much kiss breeding CRS good bye down here in texas.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Fans can cool the tank and bring any light heat down dramatically. Not sure how far it can cool the tank if the ambient temperature around it is high to being with. If the room is hot, then chiller or running the air conditioning is really your only two options that I can see.

-John N.


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## fish newb (May 10, 2006)

Well I'm in RI, so for me the temps are great:-D just keep them indoors!

Do you have a basement? Usually they are cooler...usually...

Also, I know you mentioned Java moss. I want to give you a heads up, there are tons of awesome mosses out there... Do a little research before you settle on a moss or you might regret it . I might be able to help you moss wise... I have some strange ones... There are also tons of great people selling moss usually!

Can't wait to see how you do!

-Andrew


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## bijoon (Nov 20, 2006)

It would be indoors. We can't have basements here in Houston in case of floods. Last summer in my planted tank the temp was about 83 with just lights and no heater. The temps inside are around 70-80, so it shouldn't be that hard.


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## fish newb (May 10, 2006)

bijoon said:


> It would be indoors. We can't have basements here in Houston in case of floods. Last summer in my planted tank the temp was about 83 with just lights and no heater. The temps inside are around 70-80, so it shouldn't be that hard.


That's what I figured. I'm lucky to have a basement... What about air conditioning?

-Andrew


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

I agree with Andrew those temps sound a bit too high for CRS.


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## bijoon (Nov 20, 2006)

We have AC in our hose and an overhead fan. I think if I kept the overhead fan on it would be fine. I might also look into making some duct work with some computer fans and cardboard or cheep sheetmetal.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

this was a very informative thread. i am setting up a 60cm ADA CRS tank and this pretty much gave me all the info i needed thanks everyone and JOHN you are too smart for your own good


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## iris600 (Feb 12, 2004)

I am no expert, but the CRS I got from a member here are doing great. I got them earlier this year, two adults and the rest were young. Now all the females are carrying constantly and there are babies everywhere.

I have them in a ten gallon with a sponge filter, which I rarely rinse. I use a TON of floaters, they like frogbit and salvinia especially. The babies and adults are often in the roots of the floaters feeding. 

The substrate is a few handfuls of ADA amazonica. The only plants, other than the floaters, are anchor and java moss. Before the floaters grew in the shrimp looked for areas of lower light when the light was on (two CF screw ins on an incandescent hood). Now that the floaters cover the top of the tank completely, the shrimp are always out. I do have a piece of driftwood in the tank. Tons of moss, tons of floaters.

No heater, and even in the hottest central PA weather they've been fine. On esp. hot days I do turn a circular fan in the direction of the tank.

I feed them cookies I make myself, and spirulina flake. They love both. I even give them the occasional piece of frozen bloodworm.

It's really a simple setup that I have, but it works, so I am not messing with it.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

I guess I'm a bit of a minamilaist. Tank, enough fine beach sand to just cover the bottom, throw in a couple of handfuls of java moss, and two sponge filters and shrimp. Done.

You DON'T want any snails in there. Not one. The stupid shrimp crap enough as it is, snails just exacerbate the problem.

No fish, period.


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## oblongshrimp (Aug 8, 2006)

sphixi snails (or something like that) are great in shrimp tanks. They have large groups of eggs you can easily remove if you want but they dont breed that quickly. They really help clean up extra food if you feed to much and they eat hydra.


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