# Refugium input wanted!



## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

I'm currently 11 weeks into the Dry Start Method for my refugium and would appreciate any advice as this is the first time I'll be utilizing a sump/refugium. l'm hoping it's easier, maintenance wise, than my large canister filters.

I'll try to list all of the pertinent info in this post without getting long-winded. In subsequent posts I'll discuss some of my concerns and questions along with pics to help you understand my situation.

So for now in a nutshell:

*Main Tank* - 300gal (1135L) --- EMPTY AND WAITING TO BE USED
*Sump/Refugium* - 116gal (439L) Based on EcoSystem's Delux model 7222
*Refugium section* - approx. 80gal (303L) - 49" Long x 20.75" Deep x 18.25" High
*Refugium Substrate* (bottom to top) - Backyard top soil (mostly clay); Partially mineralized MGOC; CaribSea Tahitian Moon Sand

*Plants:*
Cardinal Plant (_Lobelia cardinalis_) 'Small Form'
Water Hyssop (_Bacopa monnieri_ and some _caroliniana_)
Dwarf Hairgrass (_Eleocharis acicularis_)
Dwarf Baby Tears (_Hemianthus Callitrichoides_)
American shoreweed (_Littorella uniflora_)

*Lighting:*
1 48" T8 in back (32watt Fluorescent)
1 AquaGro 1500 Ultima Colour Plus (30 watt LED tile)
2 AquaGro 1500 Ultima GroBeam (30 watt LED tiles)

14hrs on

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Had I researched more I would have changed the physical aspect of this sump.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

My current concern is the color I'm seeing in the substrate (red? and cyanobacteria?). It's my fault for allowing my bounce cards to be kicked out from the refugium which then bounced light at the soil. Since then I've removed the bounce cards until I can cut a slim piece of black foamcore and tape it to the bottom.

What type of alga is the strawberry red I'm seeing?


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

From the image of my substrate you can see that I should have sprayed the first layer of top soil from my backyard as it has a lot of clay. Unfortunately I found out the hard way. I never imagined that the clay would be so impenetrable! I've resorted to punching holes everywhere but some of it is still dry. I'm hoping that when I flood the sump, the weight of the water will soak in.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

First two pictures - First planting in late September and about two weeks ago.

In the latest image you'll see two potted plants (Drosera spathulata & Drosera capensis) to keep gnats at bay.

Neither shows the driftwood I purchased (see pic). I tried boiling it and went through more than 20lbs of propane over two weeks trying to rid this wood of it's tannins with no success. Consequently, I've put it on the roof where it seems to be slowly going grey.

I'd welcome some advice as to the tannins role in the overall health of the aquarium. It's been a long time since I've researched this subject. Frankly, I was most interested in my planned bamboo shrimp having a way to locate themselves in the current and this piece is tall enough to get them there and hopefully look nice as well.

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

Chris, I have no feedback for you,. All I can say is, Wow! What an ambitious setup.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

ChrisKane said:


> My current concern is the color I'm seeing in the substrate (red? and cyanobacteria?). It's my fault for allowing my bounce cards to be kicked out from the refugium which then bounced light at the soil. Since then I've removed the bounce cards until I can cut a slim piece of black foam core and tape it to the bottom.
> 
> What type of alga is the strawberry red I'm seeing?


It might be oxidized iron. In my bottle tests, I often got a pretty pink layer in the soil layer just under the top sand layer. This happens in the dark. Iron in the soil solubilizes under the anaerobic conditions at the soil bottom and percolates upwards. In the meantime, oxygen penetrates through the sand layer and percolates downward. When the two meet in the middle, the iron oxidizes and forms a layer of pinkish-colored oxidized iron.

In your case, since light seems to be a factor, it could be the purple photosynthetic bacteria, which require light. Some of the purple bacteria oxide toxic H2S (hydrogen sulfide) to non-toxic sulfate. These are very good soil bacteria that there is no reason to discourage.

I agree that you have a very impressive setup!


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> It might be oxidized iron. In my bottle tests, I often got a pretty pink layer in the soil layer just under the top sand layer. This happens in the dark. Iron in the soil solubilizes under the anaerobic conditions at the soil bottom and percolates upwards. In the meantime, oxygen penetrates through the sand layer and percolates downward. When the two meet in the middle, the iron oxidizes and forms a layer of pinkish-colored oxidized iron.
> 
> In your case, since light seems to be a factor, it could be the purple photosynthetic bacteria, which require light. Some of the purple bacteria oxide toxic H2S (hydrogen sulfide) to non-toxic sulfate. These are very good soil bacteria that there is no reason to discourage.
> 
> I agree that you have a very impressive setup!


Sorry for hijacking this thread for a question. Is this red color caused by iron toxicity? Or is it some kind of defense mechanism against UV? Substrate is 3 cm yard dirt + 2-3 cm gravel cap. No filtration.




























The aquarium was outdoors in the yard and received some direct sunlight. Only Bacopa and Vallisneria turned super red. I have never seen such red colors no matter how strong artificial light did I use with these plants.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

s2man said:


> Chris, I have no feedback for you,. All I can say is, Wow! What an ambitious setup.


That would be the norm for me. If anything is easy I get bored. A perfect example is when I took an adult wood working class many years ago. The teacher had several options that were simple (one was building a bird house) but much to his consternation I insisted on making a dining room table. I still have it to this day.

Mind you... I've had to endure setbacks as well.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> It might be oxidized iron. In my bottle tests, I often got a pretty pink layer in the soil layer just under the top sand layer. This happens in the dark. Iron in the soil solubilizes under the anaerobic conditions at the soil bottom and percolates upwards. In the meantime, oxygen penetrates through the sand layer and percolates downward. When the two meet in the middle, the iron oxidizes and forms a layer of pinkish-colored oxidized iron.
> 
> In your case, since light seems to be a factor, it could be the purple photosynthetic bacteria, which require light. Some of the purple bacteria oxide toxic H2S (hydrogen sulfide) to non-toxic sulfate. These are very good soil bacteria that there is no reason to discourage.
> 
> I agree that you have a very impressive setup!


Thanks for educating me! I can't help but say how much your book influenced me to go with a naturally planted refugium. Ironically, I finished your book last summer whilst in NC!

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Z1234 said:


> Sorry for hijacking this thread for a question...


No worries. Just another opportunity for me to learn something.

Consequently, I'll take the opportunity to ask about your Vallisneria.

I know that I'll need some large stem plants to consume nitrates and I will plant as much as I can when it comes time to flood the sump. I've been considering Val's but I don't know if they're considered stem plants. I'm particularly interested in Corkscrew and Contortion varieties.

Are there certain plants that tend to consume more nitrates than others?

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

Chris, my cabomba, water sprite and myrophyllium (sp?) went bonkers when I cycled my new tank a few months ago. They still grow quickly, but not like when the N was really high. They are all stem plants.


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisKane said:


> No worries. Just another opportunity for me to learn something.
> 
> Consequently, I'll take the opportunity to ask about your Vallisneria.
> 
> ...


For me, when conditions are right and Vallisneria is in a good mood, it spreads like crazy. And this - I think - can somewhat be a problem with this plant. It may take over the whole tank. It can be hard to control, unless you like to get your hands wet .

During startup, I found floating plants very useful. Especially if my dirt choice causes problems initially. Typically new tanks with my yard dirt start with no problems. However, once I used a bagged peat substrate from a shop (I have _*very*_ hard water). Using that substrate I have to admit I've never seen such an algae bloom before. I had to put a heavy Pistia curtain on top of the tank to get the situation under control.

My problem tank at 1 month:










After 2-3 months situation seems to be under control.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

ChrisKane said:


> Are there certain plants that tend to consume more nitrates than others?
> 
> ck


From what I have seen in the scientific studies, I doubt that there are any aquatic plant species that have a greater preference for nitrates than another species. Aquatic plants will only take up nitrates if there is no--or very little--ammonium in the water.

That said, if a plant grows faster, it will need more nitrogen and if nitrates are all that's available, well then, it will take up nitrates faster than a slow-growing plant. The issue of whether the species prefers ammonium over nitrates is not relevant here.

So what you want are fast-growing aquatic plants like the _Pistia_ (water lettuce) in Z1234's very instructive picture. Look at that root mass below the plants. You can be sure that those roots are very efficient at taking up any nitrogen in the water. Better than duckweed. Emergent plants are always the best growers, but this _Pistia_ is probably cleaning up the water big-time.

If I were setting up a refugium, I would want it to look like what is in Z1234's picture. There's the soil, the submerged plants, and a beautiful layer of floating plants. All one has to do is keep removing the excess _Pistia_ in a timely manner. Other good floating plants--good root systems that will fit in an aquarium-- are Frogbit and Ceratophyllum.

If the floating plants start to die out as the months go by (as I have noticed), you may need to add some soluble iron/trace element fertilizers to the water or let the plants get their roots into the soil where they can iron and other trace elements. Or you can try houseplants, bamboo plants, etc. Lots of possibilities to play with...


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Thanks to all for your advice!

I have some Pistia in a large pot outside along with what I think is Hygrophila difformis and some Frogbit.

I'd love to have them in the refugium and will take a crack at it. My only concern is that the current may cause them to bunch at one side but I can throttle back my pump to lessen the chance.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

I'm getting the urge to end the DSM stage at this point (just about 12 weeks now). I remember reading that it's mostly intended for carpet plants to get a foothold. Is this correct?

I'll post a picture tonight and would appreciate your input as to whether or not the plants look like they're established enough.

Now that I'm contemplating this... I have a faint memory of reading someone's DSM journal. The person wrote that after they flooded their tank, some of their plants actually started growing faster than they had during DSM. Has anyone experienced this?

Thanks again for all of your input!


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Refugium image as of 12/19/16

Does it look safe to flood the refugium or should I put it off another week or two?

All opinions are welcome.

ck


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisKane said:


> Refugium image as of 12/19/16
> 
> Does it look safe to flood the refugium or should I put it off another week or two?
> 
> ...


I guess noone dares to say "yes flood it" . I'd keep some floating plants around and flood it. If you don't like them, you can always remove those later on. I'd get something more manageable than duckweed.

For me HC Cuba is growing better under water than in DSM. But this is due to my stupidity, I did not have good light for DSM and sometimes sun burned it. (sun can heat up a DSM tank in no time)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

In my own two DSM setups, the plants seemed to thrive after submergence. I describe the procedure for setting up two DSMs in the 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp' article that is available on my book's website:

http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388.htm

I was also a little nervous about submerging the plants, so I did it with one of the two tanks before doing the other. All went well--no plant death. _Remember to pour the water in without disturbing the soil layer. Use a dish or something to block the water's force._

You can always add the water in 2-3 stages by first covering the substrate with a shallow depth of water--say 2 inches (5 cm) deep--and wait a few days. Let some of those stem plants keep their "heads" above water. Make sure that the plants are okay with it. In this way, you can acclimate plants to the change from the emergent state to the submerged state. It will give the bacteria in the soil time to adjust to lower oxygen levels.

I look forward to seeing pictures of the result.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

First off, what is going into the tank that you need a refugium? Is it going to be a big fish tank? Or a planted tank?



ChrisKane said:


> I know that I'll need some large stem plants to consume nitrates and I will plant as much as I can when it comes time to flood the sump. I've been considering Val's but I don't know if they're considered stem plants. I'm particularly interested in Corkscrew and Contortion varieties.
> 
> Are there certain plants that tend to consume more nitrates than others?
> 
> ck


If it's going to be a big fish tank, nitrate consumption might be a real concern. In that case, use as many fast growing plants as you want. Stems or not, doesn't matter. Vallisneia might be a good option. I would use Elodea, Egeria, or ceratophyllum because they grow like crazy and thus use most nitrates. On the other hand, if you're main tank is going to be a planted tank, you need nitrates to keep the plants in your tank healthy. Adding more nitrate consumers in your sump will only deplete no3 faster, thus you need to add more to balance that. Not very useful...


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Z1234 said:


> I guess noone dares to say "yes flood it"


Ha! That's the very thought that went through my mind after I typed that!

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> ...You can always add the water in 2-3 stages by first covering the substrate with a shallow depth of water--say 2 inches (5 cm) deep--and wait a few days. Let some of those stem plants keep their "heads" above water. Make sure that the plants are okay with it. In this way, you can acclimate plants to the change from the emergent state to the submerged state. It will give the bacteria in the soil time to adjust to lower oxygen levels.
> 
> I look forward to seeing pictures of the result.


Interesting! I may go that route.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Yo-han said:


> First off, what is going into the tank that you need a refugium? Is it going to be a big fish tank? Or a planted tank?...If it's going to be a big fish tank, nitrate consumption might be a real concern. In that case, use as many fast growing plants as you want. Stems or not, doesn't matter. Vallisneia might be a good option. I would use Elodea, Egeria, or ceratophyllum because they grow like crazy and thus use most nitrates.


The main tank is a 300 gallon and will be a bare bottom. It will temporarily house three fish until I can put them in a pond (I hope) - not counting tail fins they are: 12" Koi; 6" Shubunkin; 5" common goldfish.

My biggest concern beyond the refugium is making sure the Koi doesn't spend too much time in the tank as it would be cruel. Worst case - I'll have to give her away to someone that has the room.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

I liked the idea proffered by DW (re: flooding the refugium up to 2 inches) and would have gone that route but knowing that I was going out of town I decided to go partially in that direction. So before I left, I sprayed enough water so as to cause puddles in the majority of the substrait.

I'll be back tomorrow night and if everything looks good then I'll flood it to allow 2 inches of water or enough for the majority (if not all) of the plants to extend out of the waterline.

Also... before I left town I did my last boil on my Malaysian driftwood (see pic). It's amazing how much tannins are in this piece of wood! This last boil emptied my 20 pound propane bottle for the second time and still the tannins look as yellow as my first boil. The only reason I'm going forward with attaching flame moss on it is due to the fact that it looks much more weathered since leaving it on the roof for a few weeks. I'm also going to put it in a 20 gallon long while the moss is adhering and I'm going to keep an eye on it to see if it yellows the water.

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

CK, wow! at the tannins in that boiling. 

Everything I can find says tannins are good for fish but, they give no reasons/facts. The only con I can find is they are aestheically unpleasing. Some folks, me included, add tannnins for soft-water fish. See tanninaquatics. com. I just did that for breeding purposes. 

I just finished up a round of ich treatments (that sucks) in my community tank. Tomorrow, I'll do a PWC and hook up a HOB full of charcoal to remove the remains of the med's and the tannins from my new, dirt-planted tank. No tannins are needed in a center piece, see-through tank. :- )


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

s2man said:


> ...Everything I can find says tannins are good for fish but, they give no reasons/facts. The only con I can find is they are aestheically unpleasing. Some folks, me included, add tannnins for soft-water fish. See tanninaquatics. com. I just did that for breeding purposes....I just finished up a round of ich treatments (that sucks)...No tannins are needed in a center piece, see-through tank. :- )


Ugh! I've been there. It's the reason I have a 20 long tank on hand. I had to run out of the house one night to get it. Thankfully the Koi was much smaller then. It's also the reason the new setup will have a 110W UV sterilizer to _lessen_ the chance of it happening again.

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look. My research re: tannins was much the same. While my tank is not a see-through or even on display (it has a black back and is in my old office), I'm not as enamored with tea-colored water as some folks. My fish seem happy with hard water and my understanding is that the tannins can cause a drop in pH. Now this may not be a problem but I'd like to keep the pH consistent and doing hard-water changes could cause inconsistent pH.

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

CK, I think the acidity is from decomposing organic matter, which coincidentaly releases the tannins. 

Odd story; My substrate is mostly organic potting soil and peat moss, yet my pH has gone up! I would like to hear any theories on that...


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

The first part makes sense to me but the rise in pH is a head scratcher and out of my league when it comes to a theory. Perhaps there's something in your setup that you're overlooking?

Speaking of substrate, I don't remember seeing images of MGOC after it had been mineralized so I was never sure when to end the process. I used shallow bins after having sifted the larger pieces out. I took pictures of the rejects (the big pieces) and the result after a few weeks of wetting/drying on my roof. I was pretty sure it wasn't actually mineralized but I was hopeful the organics had been tamed. I'd be curious to hear from others if they think I should have done it for a longer period.

ck


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

s2man said:


> CK, I think the acidity is from decomposing organic matter, which coincidentaly releases the tannins.
> 
> Odd story; My substrate is mostly organic potting soil and peat moss, yet my pH has gone up! I would like to hear any theories on that...


My guess is that the plants are growing so well that they are bringing the water's pH up. Photosynthesis consumes CO2 and that automatically brings the pH up. That's a good sign. (On page 5 of my book, I show major forces that affect water pH.)

Also, all soils tend to gravitate towards neutral pH, even if they start off acidic (my book, p. 130).

Your tank seems to have found a nice chemical balance.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> My guess is that the plants are growing so well that they are bringing the water's pH up....Your tank seems to have found a nice chemical balance.


This just proves what others have said, your book is so comprehensive that it's easy to forget what's available in there!

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

Thanks, dw. I need to do a re-read of your book. I think, on my first reading, I was more concerned about the _how_, instead of the _why_, of a NPT.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Couple of questions for those more experienced.

I started adding water to the refugium and I'm using aquarium water from my current tank along with some treated tap and I have about a half inch currently.

Re: the current tank - it goes yellow in two weeks due to overloaded biomass/DOC. That's one of the reasons I'm moving to a larger tank and a planted sump.

Anyway... is it a good idea to use the yellow water or treated tap or a mix of both?

Lastly... I've purchased 6 Malaysian Trumpet snails with the hope they'll drill down to the bottom of the refugium where the dry soil resides and help with aeration. Is this a good idea? I can always put them in another tank if it's not.

ck


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisKane said:


> Couple of questions for those more experienced.
> 
> I started adding water to the refugium and I'm using aquarium water from my current tank along with some treated tap and I have about a half inch currently.
> 
> ...


I think it comes down to the quality of your tap water. If it's OK and you don't like yellow water, go ahead and change some of it periodically (i.e weekly). I'd use water conditioner to be on the safe side. How quickly water gets yellow may depend on tons of things. I have an NPT that has not turned yellow at all even after many months.

You might find a report on your tap water on the web. (hardness, heavy metal concentrations etc)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't think the yellow water will cause a problem.
The snails are a good idea.


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> I don't think the yellow water will cause a problem.
> The snails are a good idea.


I'd also try to get some shrimps too! Amano shrimps don't reproduce in fresh water, this may (or may not  ) be a plus!

I guess some people just don't like yellow water aesthetically. I am OK with it in my tanks, but if one does not like it, I guess changing some water in this case may be a safer option than using some filter media. (Assuming your water source is good.)

Many high tech tanks use Purigen to keep the water crystal clear. I don't know how would these affect (otherwise) NPTs in the long run.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

I started adding the yellow water under the assumption that the plants would benefit from the high DOCs. That said, I didn't want to over do it so I've been mixing it with treated tap.

I do look forward to having shrimp. The main reason I have driftwood is to give bamboo shrimp a perch in the current.

I've laid some flame moss on the driftwood which is currently in the sock section and seems to be okay. I hope to move it to a separate container soon so I can flood it and see if there are any issues with tannins.

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take for moss to adhere to wood?

Lastly, I’ve released the MTS and I can see one or two on the surface now-and-then and signs of the others as small particles of MGOC are showing up on the surface of the black sand.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

If I thought this was an aquatic plant I'd likely post this to the Plant ID thread. However, I believe it is a terrestrial weed that hitchhiked with my topsoil. There's another smaller one above it that's not in the image.

At first I thought... I'll just leave it there and see how it reacts when the refugium is flooded. I was pretty sure it would die and I'd just have to pull it or cut it close to the substrate. But the more I think about it, the more concerned I get about it affecting surrounding plants.

Any danger in leaving it alone?

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

Pick the leaves and eat them! 

I do not pretend to be knowledgable about aquatic plants. But, as a long-time terrestrial gardener, that looks like a cole family plant to me (cabbage, broccoli, etc.). I don't think brussels sprouts will grow submerged.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

s2man said:


> Pick the leaves and eat them! ...that looks like a cole family plant to me (cabbage, broccoli, etc.). I don't think brussels sprouts will grow submerged.


Ha! My sense of self-preservation wouldn't allow that.

While my limited search only provided the possibility it was a thistle (no identical picture), it was backed up by my local nursery contact.

ck


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

you could pull it out and pot it, and see what it becomes...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

How are your plants adjusting to being submerged?


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

s2man said:


> you could pull it out and pot it, and see what it becomes...


I was considering it but didn't have the time. My landscaper (he's an expert in tropical terrestrials and travels in search of rare plants). He showed me the exact same plant (Sonchus variety) growing next to my roses but with a deep green and no pink coloration. He reminded me that the lighting I have in my refugium was responsible for the color difference. Here's a look at the plant I pulled and the terrestrial cozying up to my roses.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> How are your plants adjusting to being submerged?


So far so good! I've kept the waterline at 2 inches as the refugium may have to be moved when plumbing starts - hopefully no later than next week.

The Bacopa seem to be getting a boost as they're poking their heads up more than when they were in the DSM stage. I assume the water is helping them to do so.

The HC doesn't show any negative affects and I'm crossing my fingers it stays that way.

ck


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

ChrisKane said:


> So far so good! I've kept the waterline at 2 inches as the refugium may have to be moved when plumbing starts - hopefully no later than next week.
> 
> The Bacopa seem to be getting a boost as they're poking their heads up more than when they were in the DSM stage. I assume the water is helping them to do so.
> 
> ...


Great! It sounds your tank had a smooth transition. In a way, you have created a wetland environment, which is highly favorable for robust plant growth.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> Great! It sounds your tank had a smooth transition. In a way, you have created a wetland environment, which is highly favorable for robust plant growth.


"Wetland" was my first thought when I stepped back and took it all in. I'll miss this stage which confirms that one day I must have a paludarium!

One of the possible issues with DSM is that my Bacopa monnieri had the opportunity to put down roots as it progressed along the substrate. I know this is a good sign but it has gobbled up a lot of real estate.

I don't know if I should add new plants between the tight spaces and let the plants work it out or wait till I flood the sump and pull some of the stem tips up so they'll be vertical and free up substrate.

My only concern with the second option is many stems have gotten long and pulling them up will expose numerous roots. I don't know if this will stress the plant or if the roots will be fine in the water column.

Any advice is welcome!

ck


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Well, excessive plant growth should not be a problem in a refugium!

If you decide to add other plants, I would trim a little here and there to make room for the new plants. You can always shave the roots off of some stems to let the Bacopa stand more upright in the water. 

A razor blade or nail scissors might help with a "surgical trim."


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> Well, excessive plant growth should not be a problem in a refugium!
> 
> If you decide to add other plants, I would trim a little here and there to make room for the new plants. You can always shave the roots off of some stems to let the Bacopa stand more upright in the water.
> 
> A razor blade or nail scissors might help with a "surgical trim."


Thanks, D! That's a relief. It'll be easier to have some vertical.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

While everything seems to be OK in the current wetland state, I'm a bit concerned about HC. For the most part it's fine but I am noticing yellowing of some leaves. Consequently, I've been toying with the idea of adding a small amount of Flourish Excel in my spray bottle and concentrating the spray only around the HC.

Does this sound like a reasonable approach? This is about the only time I can do this before I start introducing more water which would make directed application difficult.

ck


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

If the HC still has leaves in the air, it gets all the CO2 it needs from the atmosphere. (See _the Emersed Advantage_ in Diana's book.) Excel is used as a carbon source only for plants that are completely submerged. IMO, it is completely unneeded in a Walstad tank.


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

ChrisKane;911609I'm a bit concerned about HC.[/QUOTE said:


> I am confused (which is not hard to do). I thought the refugium's purpose is to absorb nutrients from the main tank. If so, why have a low-growing plant? Wouldn't it be be better to stock it with fast growing, nitrogen sucking plants?
> 
> And congtrat's on your thread going two pages.


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

Michael said:


> If the HC still has leaves in the air, it gets all the CO2 it needs from the atmosphere. (See _the Emersed Advantage_ in Diana's book.) Excel is used as a carbon source only for plants that are completely submerged. IMO, it is completely unneeded in a Walstad tank.


Diana suggested I flood the refugium to 2" to allow bacteria to adjust. She likely wasn't expecting it to remain in this state as long as it has (nor I). That said, I hope to be flooding it next week.

Consequently, HC is the only plant that's fully submersed. Some of the largest Littorella uniflora are above the waterline but most are not. That said, their only problem is Bacopa stems up-rooting their runners.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

s2man said:


> I am confused (which is not hard to do). I thought the refugium's purpose is to absorb nutrients from the main tank. If so, why have a low-growing plant? Wouldn't it be be better to stock it with fast growing, nitrogen sucking plants?
> 
> And congtrat's on your thread going two pages.


Ha! Confusion comes easily to me as well.

Currently, the main tank is dry and will have to stay that way until it's plumbed to the sump. Due to time constraints with my current project, I have to have someone else plumb it for me and he'll likely be setting it up sometime next week if I can get the parts on time. Unfortunately, the largest order for the necessary parts was delayed so I may have to pay for faster shipping if I want to get this done next week.

Re: the HC - I'd like to have shrimp in the refugium and thought it would be nice. However, I wasn't sure how well HC would fare when competing for CO2 with fast growing plants which will be planted after I fully flood the sump.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

s2man said:


> ...And congtrat's on your thread going two pages.


I forgot to comment on this&#8230; thanks!

Apparently it's more interesting than my first post, "EcoScraps and refugium" which was a flop.

ck


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## ChrisKane (Aug 24, 2016)

I started this thread about 2 years ago and have been wanting to update many times but work and family life... well you all know.

The images will tell the tale. The HC didn't survive nor the Littorela Uniflora though it lasted longer.

I'm including images of my DIY algae scrubber as the 'fuge' was hit with what I think was "Green Water" algae. It almost smothered every dwarf Hairgrass with the exception of a few.

Lastly, the Water Hyacinth died off as well. My nursery guy (terrestrial) guessed that it was due to lack of light.

Currently, there's an abundance of Bacopa but the real hardy plants that will have to be pruned are the flame moss. My only concern is that the rubbery 'Green Water' likes the moss. Consequently, I've taken to feeding it to my Koi and common goldfish. 

I hope to post more this year!

ck


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