# Do I need to use fertilizers?



## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi pros, I am new to this and need some good advise regarding fertilizers. Where do I start?? And what should I dose if so??

I have a 50 gallon tank with high fishload, good watercleaning plants and my setup is from 22 December 2007. I use a low-tech approach and have tested the water with Sera 5in1-test without any issues. Plants grow freshly green somewhat slowly and I harden the water with some eggshell. I do minimal waterchanges, ie 15% every other week or so when water becomes too green from tannines. Artificial light constist of 30w 10'k 12 houres a day, and 2x18w 6,5'k 9 houres a day.

I have a Fluval 3+, and today I put into lowest output effect to get more nutritions for the plants. I am also considering to put my Fluval 3+, so that it's outblow will be at the bottom of the tank to keep more carbon dioxid in the tank. But I don't really know if that would do good for my fish. What do you sudgest, remove some of the biological filtermaterial first??

Thx in advance..


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

I do have some algae (string algae, green algae?) on none growing plants. I got it with the plants from friends who I got the tank from. I haven't thought of it as an issue since it's been more or less under control. But perhaps I am closing in to where it becomes an issue since it compeates for nutritius that should go to plants that I want. So, what's step one? :mrgreen: I am not gona pull algae out by hand. I have been think of bury algae and plants into the substrate when it becomes too much. Cheers


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm not familiar with the test method you mentioned, but if it is a test strip, it isn't accurate enough to be useful.

You do have very low light intensity, so your plants will grow slowly no matter what else you do. Generally, low light intensity means little or no fertilizing. You could visit the Barr Report and read about the non-CO2 method described there. The Walstad el natural method is another that you could try, but you need to have set up the tank according to that method first.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Sounds like a decent NPT setup to me unfortunately you will probably always have a bit of algae
unless you go with a good group of algae eaters or dose a bit of Excel which will get me smacked
in the El Natural forum  and truthfully wouldn't be my final recommendation.

My first recommendation would be to add some fast growing plants to the tank depending on how
heavily it's planted because the slow growers might not be able to out compete all of the algae for
the food sources. And then three or four ramshorn snails if you can get them reliably (like from the
For Sale forum) but stay away from LFS's "Apple/Mystery Snails" as it's hard to tell them apart if 
your not used to them (apples are golf ball sized as adults and will eat you out of plants while the
mysteries get almost quarter sized as adults and are the good ones).

- Brad


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

Thank you for your replays!

I know the test-stick is not accurate. But since fish do well, and plants also seem to do fine, however slow they grow. I am sure I don't have excess amonia.

No3 = 0
No2 = 0
Gh = 3-6-10 (I can't read the test out, one is (green/)pink and two is green.)
Kh = 3
Ph = 6,4

Excel is probably out off the question if's some kind off chemical.

Does NPT stand for Natural Planted Tank?

I have appelsnails, the brown ones. I think it's Pomacea bridgesii efusa The yellow ones is eating plants I have heard. I started with 5 but is now down to 2. I thought they would eat my algae up. They had smal wholes in the shell indicating lack off Calsium when I bought em. Maybe that got em in too bad off a shape. I also have 10-15 Ancistrus dolichoperus Sp. one to three inches. They are thriving..

I'll try and read the setup's you recomend me reading. Cheers!


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

hoppycalif said:


> ... You could visit the Barr Report and read about the non-CO2 method described there...


Thank you! I joined with same name to find some good reading but it also gives me hedic so I stop for today. Cheers..


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Koi-fantast said:


> Thank you for your replays!
> 
> I know the test-stick is not accurate. But since fish do well, and plants also seem to do fine, however slow they grow. I am sure I don't have excess amonia.
> 
> ...


Yes if the snails have holes then you need to add some calcium additive which will be a liquid.
There's nothing wrong with liquid ferts they won't cause your fish any problems and will be better
for your tank you just have to know exactly what to add.

The latest copy of TFH (The Skeptical Fishkeeper) has an interesting line - "we are not fish keepers
but aquarium keepers" you have to look to the health of the tank not just the fish to keep everything
healthy.

- Brad


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

I am farirly shure that my snails have had enough calsium since they got into my tank, my guess is that they seem to be unably to repair bigger holes in theire shells from earlier calsium deflicienses. 2/3 off my sand came from a running aquarium and I have added egg shells to increase calsium. Since I have not followed generall recomendations to do lots off WC I am wondering if all needed traces will come by food in enough quantities for plants.

I will try to get my hands on recomended article and strive to get a well balanced tank. Thanx


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Homer_Simson has a link called lost world where he is doing 2 experiements of non co2 tanks. You can find it by doing a member search and then click on the name and then at his page click threads started by him. It is at the bottom of 1 of his post.


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

dawntwister said:


> Homer_Simson has a link called lost world where he is doing 2 experiements of non co2 tanks. You can find it by doing a member search and then click on the name and then at his page click threads started by him. It is at the bottom of 1 of his post.


Thank you!

It feels though that I have another setup so I am not sure what to make out of it.

Biggest consern is that I somehow harm my fish when I am not doing all WaterChanges everyone recomend. Here it seem to be the general view that if not doing weekly WC you stress the fish. I however think that less WC is better since it takes time for fish to adjust to new conditions. I have speculated if trace-elements could become too low for fish if I am not doing WC, but I think that's mostly viweable on plants. So, plants to me will indicate how well the whole tank is doing.

I would also like to know, what do I put into the tank that can't be broken down inside the tank? Or what do I not want to be broken down inside the tank? I can't see pesticides, nikotine, parfymes as a resonable argument for doing WC. For me WC needs to be done when you have mess't up the tank with too much biologic mass to decompose, or medical issues.

Plants will produce oxygen and clear up amonia, so amnonia will generally be too low for plants but at a constant level depending on feeding. Bacteria however can be a problem if not delt with the proper way. I am wondering how much material is needed inside the filter, since I am thinking of removing some of it to keep mechanichal filtation, but reduce biological. This feels hazzardious since if I remove biological material it will take time to get them back in full capacity and I don't have a backup tank. It hits me now that I will have to conserv the biological material somehow, maybe I'll use my aircompressor for that. That would do it.

Ps. thanks for reading all this. All thoughts and advices are welcome!


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Koi it is unclear as to what style of tank you have. Some people, like Walstead only do water changes 1x a year. I didn't do mine for 3 months before I started having problems. From info I have gathered water changes depend on your tap water and what you put in the tank. To prevent further algae blooms I am going to change water 1x a month.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

I tend to do twice a month water changes on my NPT's but that sometime slides into once
a month depending on real life issues and I generally don't have problems - not with algae
at least.

I would think that the most stress you could put on your fish is doing a 50%+ WC every
two or three months as that would be a shock to there systems once a blue moon in
fish years. Keep in mind that fish are nothing like us there are very few things in the
air we breath that effect our bodies were a fishes body has to constantly deal with
heavy deposits, pressure, etc.

- Brad


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

I haven't done any WC off more than 15% yet, and I plan to keep them in low percentage.

My setup isn't Diana Walstad or Tom Barr if I understand them correctly. I use plain aquarium-gravel without fertilizers. Fertilizers seem too complex for now, with Po, Mn, Kno3, Fe etc! And I honestly don't think that I would get that into a stable mode. I guess I will have to do smal changes and learn from it.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Since your substrate is gravel, does that mean your plants are rhizome plants like Java? What kind of plants do you have? Are the plants growing at the rate you like? From rs79 I've learned that iron is the most important nutrient that plants need to grow.

There is some interesting info on how to make fert balls using osmocote, which can be bought at harware stores, at http://aquaria.net/articles/DIY/plants/clay-balls/.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Also found that if you have a lot of natural light coupled with tank lighting co2 has to be added. Co2 has to be balanced with light. With low light generally there is enough co2 in the water. Co2 can be added using sechem flourish excel, diy co2, presurized co2. Nature is not an exact science. Several people at this forum say what works for 1 person doesn't work for another person. 

Plants in general give signs as to what is wrong. I am going to try to find a plant book that explains the symptoms. Too much ferts can cause problems like Ghazanfar Ghori had.


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## Koi-fantast (Feb 2, 2008)

These are my plants that are doing quite fine; duckweed, bacopa, Cerathophyllum demersum. 

These are my plants that have stayed the same all the time; elodea densa, vallisneria.

I plan to do simular clay-bools that you describe. That seem like my path.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

You must have the right fish load for the plants to do so well. I tried elodea densa 2xs and it died. The Vallisneria will grow more if there are ferts in the ground. For according to Plant Geek they need a nutrient rich substrate for best growth. Special note*** This plant seems to be sensitive to Flourish Excel, to the point it "melts" completely off if given enough. 

I have read, at this forum, if it works don't change it. Drastic changes are the worst thing to do. I have learned that the hard way. Thus go it slow with what ever you do.

Keep up the good work.


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## bear24 (Apr 16, 2008)

Weekly water changes are a must. They are not that bad and it gives you a chance to watch and plan your tank. The point of all the work we put in is to enjoy the final product, a manicured, scaped personal piece of nature. By not doing water changes you allow the evaporating water to concentrate the ammonia, nitrates, waste to accumulate. After topping up the tank the tank water is only diluted again to the same point or less it was prior to the added water. This is a positive feedback loop that cannot fix itself, and therefore must be controlled by the aquariast. A natural water system cycles its entire volume many times daily, removing wastes and providing fresh nutrients. The ideal water change would be a complete 100%/daily with near identical water conditions meeting at the same temp to refill. All this without killing the bioload of the tank, good bacteria not fish. Unless you are striving for the natural setup, pick it up on the water changes, you will see a reward for the added care.


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