# Help! 3ppm of Phosphate from Tap water. Tried everying EI, PMDD, PPS...



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Help! I've tried every dosing combinations, invested $1,000 of dollars, and I'm about to quit. I have a 110 gallon 30" tall tank with 280watt power compact. 10 hour photoperiod. Two Ehiem 2028 canister with Pressurized Co2 injection around 20-25ppm. I'ved tried EI dosing, PMDD, PPS and all other varient and still can't get my plant to grow will. I think I've found the culprit and it's my tap water. My tap water is very soft about 1 degree of GH and 1 degree of KH. I use seachem phosphate test and it register 3ppm. 

What should I do??? Somebody please help, I'm getting desparate.


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## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

How much Nitrates are you dosing? With such soft water it is easy to overdose with NO3 and K. What exactly is happening with the plants? Do they have diformed leaves? Do they loose leaves? 3ppm of P is on the higher end but still acceptable. Something else is going on but I don't think it's phosphates.


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## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

I had soft water the last place I lived. I didn't get good growth untill I started doseing calcium and magnesium. I didn't notice the problem untill I had more stems and added a hygrophila that developed the curled underdeveloped leaves indicitive of that deficiency.

you will get some improvement with CaCl as a part of that suplementation, but if you can find a compound to dose Ca without the Cl (cloride) you won't get the inhibiting effects from the Cl.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I personally think 3ppm of PO4 is just fine. Depending on how often you do waterchanges you might even need to add some PO4. I add 6ppm of PO4 per week to my tank, but I use RO water. I'm guessing you're deficient in another area.

I'd be willing to bet that your CO2 concentration is much lower than you think it is. For a 110g tank, the bubble stream in a CO2 bubble counter should probably be going too fast to count.

Big tanks take tons of nutrients too - we're talking tablespoons of dry ferts, several times a week. 1 degree of GH & KH isn't too bad. You might try adding a bit of GH, but adding more KH won't improve anything.

What _exactly_ is your current dosing routine?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I'd also like to add, in case you weren't aware of it, that when you try a new method or change a dosing routine you need to allow a period of at least three weeks (preferably a month or two) to see the final results. In my experience plants take time to fully adapt to a new level of nutrients (including lighting changes).

I bring it up because I have heard of people trying EI or PPS for a week or two and then switching to something else because they think that it's not working. This isn't enough time...


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Well, I'll give you guys more details about my setup. I'm completely redoing my tank because of previous failure, it's been running about a week now and plant growth is still very poor and stunted.

My tank is 110 gallon, 48" long and 30" deep. About 2" of Flourite for the substrate (It has been completey cleaned & washed since the redo). Two Eheim 2028 Pro II canister running. 300 watt Hydor In-Line temp set at 74 degree. 10 hours photoperiod with three hours midday blast, powered by 260Watt Corallife power compact (10 hours at 130 watt and 3 hours at 260 watt). Pressurized Co2 is directly injected to the Intake at slightly over 4BPS, I will be getting the Aqua Medic Reactor 1000 very soon. 

My tap water is about 1 degree of GH and 1 degree of KH and about 3ppm of Phosphate using Seachem Phosphate test kit. I assume it is not bicarbonate buffer since the Phosphate level is so high, this may invalidate the PH/KH Co2 chart. 


First day of setup - Added one teaspoon of Potassium Nitrate and one teaspoon of Potassium Sulfate. Based on Chucks' nutrient calculator, this will give me about 10PPM of Nitrate and about 11PPM of Potassium in a 100 gallon tank. I also added one teaspoon of Equilibrium just to raise GH slightly, while adding a bit more Calcium, Mg, and Potassium into the mix. Two tablespoon of Baking Soda was added to raise my KH to 4 degree. My PH is now at 6.5 - so that's more or less around 30ppm of Co2. No Macro has been added after that and about 15ML of flourish was added. 

I'm an now in my third day - plant growth is poor.

Today, I will pick up more fast growing stem plants. My plant mass is very low right now and I think that may be part of the problem. It's just that I hate drop a lot of $$ into stem plants that I will eventually get rid off. To filll 100 gallon tank with heavy plant mass is going to cost a lot of $$$$. So, I'm trying to grow out what I have and that may be what's causing all of my problem. 

BTW: I just got the Milawakee SMS122 controller and the PH probe that came with it is a pieace of crap. I'm going to replace that with a lab grade probe such as the one made for the Neptune system.


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

You have to remember that it will take more than 3 days for the plants to acclimate so the plant growth may not be what you want in the beginning. Based on the specs of your tank everything sounds good and your plants should do well.

Please tell us what type of plants you have in the tank. 

-Ryan


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't have much plant now nor heavy fish load (about 7 rainbows and 10 tetras). I have one amazon sword, couple crypt specimen, one bunch Rotala Macandra, 10 Corkscrew vals, one bunch of Wisteria, one bunch of Nesea, about 20 E. Tennullus. 

I'm going to the fish store today to get some more fast growing algae buster.


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Is there any way that I can post pictures of my tank on this forum to give you guys a better idea?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

How to Post Pictures on APC using APC Photo Hosting

Other options include uploading photos to ImageShack® - Hosting or Free Image and Video Hosting - Photo Image Hosting Site : Photobucket.com. I use APC and imageshack exclusively.

-John N.


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## azfishguy (Jul 1, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> Big tanks take tons of nutrients too - we're talking tablespoons of dry ferts, several times a week.


I would have to challenge that. IME the uptake of nutrients depends on density of plants, type of plants, light (intensity, photoperiod etc.), and CO2. Simply saying that big tanks take tones of nutrients is a little too general. Finally, tablespoons of KNO3, KH2PO4 several times a week? Did you mean teaspoons?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Nah, just making the point that many people underestimate the nutrient needs of a tank that big, especially if you're doing large frequent WC's. Perhaps tablespoons is a bit of a stretch, but not by much. Once you get up to 240g and larger the quantities get truly enormous by "little tank" standards.

Yes of course it all depends on lighting, plant density, etc. It always does and there's no one solution that guarantees success.


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

azfishguy said:


> I would have to challenge that. IME the uptake of nutrients depends on density of plants, type of plants, light (intensity, photoperiod etc.), and CO2. Simply saying that big tanks take tones of nutrients is a little too general. Finally, tablespoons of KNO3, KH2PO4 several times a week? Did you mean teaspoons?


Thank you azfishguy. That was exactly the mistake I've learned. In the past, I would nuke my tank with heavy heavy nutrient as directed by EI dosing and in short, I've ended up with a huge algae mess and almost gave up on the hobby.

Now, I'm resetting my tank and dosing much much less then the recommend EI dosing and it's looking so far so good.


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## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Just an update - currently I'm dosing about 1/8 tsp of Potassium Nitrate, 1/8 tsp of Potassium sulfate, and 1/8 equilibrium every other day. Using Chucks calculator, I'm adding about 1ppm of Nitrate and 1.2ppm of Potassium in a 100gallon tank. 

The only thing I'm not clear on is weather I should reduce my Potasium Sulfate dosing. 

I'm not dosing Phosphate because I have 3ppm already in my tap. And if i do 50% water change every two weeks, it should replenish my Phosphate level.


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## TortoiseBoy (Dec 30, 2004)

Hi John,
I am far from an expert, but I have had similar difficulties. I have a 90 gallon that I recently restarted because I had some similar frustrations to those you have expressed. I used to use EI and it just wasn't working for me. I am sure it is just because I wasn't doing it right, but I had a big tank full of BBA before and I could do nothing to rid myself of it. 

This time, I am following the PPS system and I am having far more success this time. The daily dosing of the solutions is just so easy and I am learning a ton about my tank by doing the testing, which you don't seem to mind doing, either (you have taken the time to calibrate your test kits, which puts you ahead of me!). 

Since I have started the tank again, I have had some trouble with green water, but it seems to have a lot to do with how much growth I am getting. I started the tank with not quite enough plants and got the green water. I then went and got some Hornwort. That stuff is ugly as sin, but it does a great job of rapid growth. Just float it at the top and it grows like wildfire. I am recently fighting another round of green water, but this time it is because I did a massive cull of the plants in my tank, even getting rid of the Hornwort. The massive drop in biomass in the tank was just too rapid a change, I believe, and so I got the green water. I feel confident I will get rid of it again when my plants "catch up" in terms of growth. Maybe you just need to get a bunch of fast-growing plants in there, like you said. My tank looked the best it has in a long time when I came back from vacation and the plants had completely covered the top of the tank! That water was sparkling clear. So, maybe you just need to jumpstart the biomass and growth rate in the tank. 

Another thing that caught my eye was that you are running your tank at 74 degrees, correct? This seems a bit lower than I am used to seeing. I am sure it is fine, but it probably results in a slower plant growth rate. This may contribute to the balance issues above. I think you can run it at 74 degrees forever, but maybe some of the advice you get assumes that you are running up in the high 70's or low 80's as is common. I found that 300 watts was not enough to keep my 90 gallon tank at a stable temp. I have a 400 watt Hydor submersible heater in my tank and it does a fantastic job. Too bad it can't cool the temps from the lighting, too ;-) I run my tank at about 78 degrees and that seems to work well. Is your tank temperature stable? That is the important thing, I think, especially for the fish. 

Well, that is all I can think of for now. I just want to encourage you to stick with it and stay patient. Planted tanks have been the most challenging aspect of the aquarium hobby for me and I have been keeping fish for over 20 years. Planted tanks make me feel like a rookie all the time. The challenge is worth it, though, and the final product will be great if you just listen to the smart folks around here (not me). Best of luck,

TB


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