# DIY carbon source, not CO2



## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

So I'm looking at Excel and Flourish Advance.
I don't want to deal with the toxic chemicals in Excel so Advance looks promising. Besides the ferts, it uses glutamic acid, and Amino Butyric Acid. I'll focus on the glutamic instead since you can buy the stuff on Amazon. While searching, I ran into potassium glutamate, a supplement. It's half the price of glutamic acid.

I did a quick test on some plants in 2 cups of water. I did get the plants to pearl but you can definitely overdose and melt the plants. I added 1/4 teaspoon of K-glut in 2 cups of water.

The plants in my 75G look sad so I'm now adding 1/4 tsp every other day. I'll report back the results.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Very interesting experiment! I can understand not wanting to deal with Metricide - knowing it has some negative effects on humans can explain that. I use it, but take as much care using it as I can, including immediately washing my hands every time I get any on my hands. Are those chemicals you are trying all non-toxic?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yes, potassium glutamate is akin to sodium glutamate which we eat all the time in flavored chips. All the chemicals I listed are human consumable, easy to get on Amazon. Of course you can overdose these chemicals like any.

Both AminoButyric Acid & glutamic acid have an ammonia molecule attached to the carbon chain. I guess it's good if your plants need Nitrogen.


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## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Monsodium glutamate (MSG) is an amino acid we eat everyday. It's the most common food additive to enhance taste and found naturally in cheese, tomato, mushroom and all meat. Monopotassium glutamate is another form of glutamate and I didn't know it's sold in health store. Is it sold as a supplement for K or glutamate as our body need both to function.

MSG is sold in food store under trade name Accent, Taste Powder or Ajinomoto. MSG isn't cheap and I imagine potassium glutmate won't be cheap either. In comparison. I bought a gallon of generic glutaldehyde, Metricide 14 for $21 that will last over a year dosing 2x daily to my 75g. I am dosing glut not so much for carbon, but as an algaecide. Seachem markets Excel as liquid carbon but I have yet seen scientific data to back it up. I guess dosing any organic compounds will provide some carbon as all organic matters contains and will break up into carbon at some point.

I don't worry about the toxicity of glut for myself, plants or fish at the dosage used. The difference between toxin and medicine is the dosage. Even NaCL is a toxic at high dosage, but at low dosage, it's food additive and remedy for sore throat and ich in fish.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

MSG & KG is actually pretty cheap. I bought a pound of K-Glut powder for $12 or so. I'm working out the dosing, right now 1/4 tsp every 2 days. It'll last me a year probably at this rate.

You can get cheap MSG at the Asian market btw. I don't want to dose Na so I'm not going that route.

The amount you dose glut is enough to affect daphnia (kill off or stop reproduction).... It doesn't affect fish but I know it affect more sensitive critters. There are studies that glut affect fish fry as well.



> The difference between toxin and medicine is the dosage.


Glut is not a medicine btw so the comparison is not appropriate. It's straight up a bio-toxic cleaner.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

tiger15 said:


> I don't worry about the toxicity of glut for myself, plants or fish at the dosage used. The difference between toxin and medicine is the dosage.


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## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Glut is a medicine in metaphorical sense because it can cure algae infection. Glut is not a human medicine but a fish medicine as glut is an ingredient in Seachem Paraguard to cure fish of ich and parasitic infection.

"Dose makes the toxin" is a fundamental principle in toxicology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison

Glut is twice as toxic to daphnia than algae, but only 1/10 as toxic to fish. So one needs to over dose 10x to kill fish.

I feel saver to dose glut to my fish planted tank than gaseous CO2. I dose glut manually, but if my regulator or light timer malfunctions, there is a chance my fish can be gassed to death.

But I wouldn't dose glut to shrimp tank, as glut is more toxic to invertebrate than fish. So if you can find a non-toxic substitute for glut, it will be valuable for use in shrimp tank.

However, Glutamic Acid is only one of 5 organic ingredients in Flourish Advance, and has the lowest level. Ascorbic Acid (Vitamine C), Mannitol (sweetener) and one amino acid have higher levels.

Alanine	0.06%
γ-Amino Butyric Acid	0.15%
Glutamic Acid	0.04%
Mannitol	0.14%
Ascorbic Acid	0.14%

So you have to find out if Glutamic Acid actually works, and how does it compare with others. Are you aware that Vitamine C has been used as an alternative and cost effective dechlorinizer, so if it also provides liquid carbon, it doubles the function.

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/html/05231301/05231301.html


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Agreed, there are issues with dosing CO2 as well and I wouldn't does glut in a shrimp tank knowing that it kills off daphnia.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

It's curious that Advance uses 3 different carbon chain chemicals

γ-Amino Butyric Acid	0.15%
Glutamic Acid	0.04%
Mannitol	0.14%

They may want to cover as many different ways plants absorb these carbon molecules I guess. Something to think about.

Hmm, I'll give Mannitol a try too. I can get 1lbs for $18. I'll mix a 1:1 with my K-gluconate..


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

So the Mannitol arrived. The consistency is powdered sugar. It clumps too. It doesn't dissolve in water immediately like the K-gluconate. 

I mixed the two together and will now dose everyday.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

So far so good. My anubias are sprout noticeably faster. I'd consider it a success if the new leaves don't get covered in BBA.

***
I'm dissolving the powder first because the guppies will try to eat it.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I dosed excel to fight back the BBA after a water change. It wrecked the moss and singed the anubis where I was spot treating. Some plants are way more sensitive to excel than others.


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## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

If you have to fight bba, the organic carbons you added is doing more harm than good. The high tech folks believe organic carbons from fish waste trigger algae and thereby need frequent WC, and you just add more organic carbons.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I do weekly water changes. It does help with other types of algae but I think the thinkings behind BBA are anecdotal. I'm skeptical. I have tanks where I don't change water at all and have zero BBA.

I've always have had BBA in this 75G tank even when I ran CO2. They don't go away. I periodically hurt them with excel.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Update on this with daily 1/4 tsp of dry carbon in a 75Gallon tank. In addition to regular water column ferts dosing.

May 8, 2018









The crypts were sad looking for months, not doing much.

July 4, 2018








It's taken 2 months but looking better. The crypts are on a layer of dirt since the beginning.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Update on growth










I dose 1/4 tsp in a 75G for 4 days out of the week. Adding too much does seem to stimulate the BBA a bit but all of their growth is on the hardscape. The plants are heathy enough to ward them off.

I think I'll add fructose into the mix. Seems like any simple 6 carbon molecule will work. I think fructose isn't used in commercial products (liquid form) is because of shelf life but in powder form, it'll keep.


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## barongan (Jul 31, 2018)

Very interesting experiment!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Is it too early to reach a conclusion about using this alternate form of carbon?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I added fructose (monosaccharide) into the mix. It is the cheapest carbon source, $2.50/pound. If that's all you'll add, go for that. I'm still doing multiple carbon compounds.

I think it is a good alternative but doesn't look like it works for java ferns. They develop black spots necrosis on older leaves but it still grow new leaves.

I'll go ahead and only use fructose and I recently added a buce & h. pinnatifida.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm switch back to the multiple mix of carbon. After a week of only fructose, I'm noticing more BBA growing on the leaves that receive the most light. That tells me the plants are not doing so good.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I added ascorbic acid, vitamin C, C6H8O6, into the mix. The slow growing Hygrophila Pinatafida seem to perk up a bit. It seems like a mix of C6 makes it easier for the plants so they don't need to spend so much energy of producing various Carbon compounds. CO2 looks like a much better option though


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I rescaped and a better picture.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I just had a crazy idea on adding extra CO2 into a tank. My tank is covered, not air tight but I can exhale CO2 into the covered tank in the morning to give plants extra CO2, lol. I know indoor CO2 levels can be 3-5x more CO2 than atmospheric CO2. I can push that level by breathing into a covered tank.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You can also get a lot of CO2 in the water by blowing in a air hose that goes to a little pump in the tank, or filter, and letting the pump rotor make micro bubbles of it. I used that technique when I was experimenting with drop checkers several years ago.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Interesting. I think increasing the CO2 concentration above the water should be good enough, for a little while anyway. CO2 likes dissolving into water.


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## adalah (Feb 10, 2019)

Following,that's very interesting


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