# ADA Aquasoil vs Eco-Complete?



## howie

I am wondering which everyone here recommends. I read about the downside of ADA and don't know if the benefits out weight the loss.


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## Jason Baliban

What have you read as a downside of AS?

jB


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## eklikewhoa

eco does nothing for hardness... and my experience with it was worse then that of inert Tahittan moon sand with flourish tabs.

The first two pictures show the same exact tank with everything exact except the substrate...the downoi almost died in eco, crypt rolled up and died, HM started getting really leggy as all the other plants, everything in the tank looked really pale.

first two pictures show...
20g
96w pc
pressurized co2
seachem ferts dosed as per seachem

Eco...









TMS....









Aquasoil...









my opinion on eco-complete................I still have a few boxes of flourish root tabs and sand is dirt cheap.


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## goalcreas

read this link, a mix of the two might be a good solution.

I have one tank of each, the Eco I like the look of much more then the AS, and planting in it is much easier, the AS seems to grow stuff really fast, but with more then one tank, I kind of enjoy the slow growth, makes it easier to keep up with maintenance.

anyway, read on, there are good arguments for both

http://aape.naturalaquariums.com/forum/index.php?topic=1273.0


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## dhavoc

i tried a mix of both in a 20l as well. as on bottom and a layer of eco on top. med/high light with co2 but only micros for ferts plus fish poop (its my daughters tank with a large angel in it). hc and downoi grow great but thats probably due to the as layer on the bottom. eco by itself is IME nothing more than decent looking inert gravel, and expensive gravel at that. it is easier to plant in eco though and i like the texture too. a combo could be your best bet, though i would just use a layer of cheaper inert gravel over the as in lieu of eco.


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## Minsc

Eco dumps a ton of hardness into the water at first, AS dumps a ton of ammonia.

Eco complete is very hard, and IME ends up breaking a lot of stems upon insertion. I end up with a bunch of floaters as well...

Aqua soil is super soft, very easy to plant in, no floaters, but is a bit delicate and crushable.

Pick your poison...


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## howie

Thank you all for your opininons on this.

eklikewhoa... That is an awesome looking tank!


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## gf225

FYI Tom Barr has recently swapped over the entire substrate in a 1600 gal. from Aqua Soil to EcoComplete.

Murky water during maintenance was the main issue.

IME Aqua Soil is ideal for tanks that require minimal plant uprooting etc. Not ideal for newbies that with to experiment with layouts too much. 

Aqua Soil is the best choice for pure plant growth and is especially ideal for softwater set ups. 

Aqua Soil in hard water can lead to a brown tinting of the water, although this apparently has been remedied in Aqua Soil Amazonian II.

The downside is the initial ammonia spikes, pH crash etc. so stocking fish early on needs to be done in conjuction with plenty of water changes and activated carbon/zeolite filtration. Otherwise wait a few weeks until water chemistry has stabilised.

I've no personal experience with EC.

My current favourite is Tropica Plant Substrate (1cm layer) topped with coarse silica sand. Tropica capsules can target heavy feeders too. Very good results and very cost effective too.


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## eklikewhoa

Uhmmm did you notice that Tom Barr switched because he was playing in it? Literally walking on the soil so that was the problem.


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## gf225

eklikewhoa said:


> Uhmmm did you notice that Tom Barr switched because he was playing in it? Literally walking on the soil so that was the problem.


lol. Yep, playing does cause murkiness with AS. Walking in a 1600 gal. is probably similar to uprooting a plant in a 20 gal.

That's why it's best left alone once installed, especially in big tanks.

I'm not against AS at all. Just highlighting potential issues.

I like your 'scapes btw...


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## eklikewhoa

Thanks...

well it' similar but the soil is still small in size compared to a human vs. plants


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## Jason Baliban

George said it right....if you are going to us AS then you really shouldnt be changing your layout. If you are newer to the hobby you might want to consider a different substrate.

And as strange as it seems, i would not recommend AS to anyone until they feel confident they can grow plants without it. The only reason i say this is that AS does grow plants better then any other substrate. A person with 1 day experience can have great success with the stuff. But what if there is a prob....that person will have no idea what happened. That is just my opinion

Oh, and EC will raise your PH.

jB


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## eklikewhoa

I didn't notice a pH rise with EC but I did notice the hardness went up.


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## BryceM

I did quite a bit of research before picking a substrate for my 180g. I decided to go with Eco Complete and so far I'm quite happy with it. I did have major algae issues for a month or so after setup, but that may or may not have been related to the substrate.

I use reconstitued RO and can verify that my Eco raised the GH and KH of the water. This effect was strong at first, but has gradually faded over the past few months. My test kits show that the "spike" was apparetnly caused by CaCO3 since there was no increase in the Mg concentration. Close inspection of the substrate shows a few small white granules which rapidly fizz in the presence of a strong acid. Some have suggested that this is contamination from their SW crushed seashell substrates, which they apparently keep in the same processing area. It wasn't that big of a deal, never raising the KH more than 3 or 4 degrees as long as I did weekly WC's.

The Eco keeps HC rooted reasonably well, which was one of my primary goals. I don't have much trouble with broken stems, but it can happen if you're not careful. My other criteria was to choose a substrate that would last several years. I'm guessing that the softer substrates would turn to mush after a few months. In any case, almost all substrates are essentially inert after several months.

If your goal is a reasonably dense substrate that will maintain it's shape & characteristics over a long period of time, go with Eco. If you want a nice 'scape that is fairly easy to establish with an expected lifespan of a few months, I'd go with ADA's stuff.


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## chiahead

ADA does not go to mush after a few months. I have tanks that are older than a year using it and it looks the same as it did originally.


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## BryceM

That's good to know. I've never used ADA myself, but have been considering it for an upcoming setup. Does anyone have a guess about how it might perform after several years?


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## gf225

guaiac_boy said:


> That's good to know. I've never used ADA myself, but have been considering it for an upcoming setup. Does anyone have a guess about how it might perform after several years?


I think Oliver Knott has layouts that are 3+ years with Aqua Soil. Jeff Senke too possibly has long-term success with it.

The ADA liquid fert "Step" series has more nutrients the older the set up, to compensate for the nutrient depletion and "stale" factor of old substrate.

If you run a richer water column then I suspect the nutrients in the substrate will last a lot longer still.

I can recommed AS, it's a pleasure to work with making initial planting very simple. Just get your hardscape and planting plan sussed so you don't need to mess.


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## eklikewhoa

There is a guy over at shrimpnow.com over in Japan I believe that has used it for 3+ yrs and the pictures show good shaped aquasoil.


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## Raul-7

guaiac_boy said:


> That's good to know. I've never used ADA myself, but have been considering it for an upcoming setup. Does anyone have a guess about how it might perform after several years?


I have the same concern you had regarding long-term stability. I ended up getting flamed for it.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/45691-ada-aquasoil.html

George Lo has some insight.

In short it all comes down to how careful you are when planting and as long as you don't mind adding a bag or two of AquaSoil every couple of years to make up for the lost silt; then I guess AquaSoil might be what you're looking for.


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## eklikewhoa

Raul-7 said:


> I have the same concern you had regarding long-term stability. I ended up getting flamed for it.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/45691-ada-aquasoil.html
> 
> George Lo has some insight.
> 
> In short it all comes down to how careful you are when planting and as long as you don't mind adding a bag or two of AquaSoil every couple of years to make up for the lost silt; then I guess AquaSoil might be what you're looking for.


Actually your first post was stating that aquasoil turns to silt after a few years.....implying that you have had it for that long..... there are guys that have had it for longer than that and there was no problem with it. No one flamed you....but you did make a statement in which you have no idea of it's truth.



> While I agree ADA is great for planting and aesthetics, it may not be the best solution if you're looking for something long-term (2+) years. Overtime it slowly turns into fine silt, the more you play with your tank - the faster it will break down. It all depends on your budget and how frequently you'd like to tear your tanks down.


your first post on the other thread..... sounds like someone giving advice from their experience rather then asking out of concern.


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## Raul-7

I did make a statement, but that's no reason for someone to stay: "ignore him, he doesn't know what he's talking about." Fact is AquaSoil is by no means going to hold up overtime. Caution must always be used when working with it as compared to other, more rigid substrates. That's a serious factor when comparing it to other substrates.


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## eklikewhoa

True... but it's not as delicate as some make it to be. 

In my 30g it is heavily planted and I have redone and moved it around multiple times in the past 8months or so and I notice no breaking apart. Knowing that aquasoil can become powder if I crush I will still never go back to eco-complete... and rather go with inert sand and flourish root tabs.

Everything is a trade off..... so-so nutrient packed substrate but rock hard or nutrient packed and not as hard. either way both substrates will deplete of nutrients offered and will require heavier column fert dosing but one will become gravel and the other will become mulm.


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## Raul-7

eklikewhoa said:


> Everything is a trade off..... so-so nutrient packed substrate but rock hard or nutrient packed and not as hard. either way both substrates will deplete of nutrients offered and will require heavier column fert dosing but one will become gravel and the other will become mulm.


Exactly. The key point is that all substrates will become depleted and neutral overtime. Substrate isn't something to worry about since we obviously rely on dosing through the water column. It all comes down to aesthetics, ease of planting, stability, porosity, etc.


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## paradise

Raul, you got "blasted" (you really did not, critique is not "blasting") because you made a ton of statements like that, without EVER using the product. I really can't listen to your opinion until you use the product. SORRY , but I will pass until you do.

I have moved rocks in AS, shoved them into the ground and moved them around, I have replanted the tank completely several times, with fish and SHRIMP inside it, and it's crystal clear. Aquasoil grows plants like nothing else, and the STEP program works wonders. I used to doze using "the method" but now I just use the pump 8 times every other day  Sorry, I did not get into this hobby to be a chemistry major. I know some love to mix the chemicals and do tests, not me.


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## eklikewhoa

Now that you bring it up pardise.....my new 5g iwagumi tank went through about 2hrs worth rock placement moving around, digging, shoving, burying, leveling, flattening and all that with powersand underneath...


........filled with water and hmmm it was crystal clear and aquasoil on top powersand on the bottom.


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## Brilliant

Well I *have* used AS. A few months later there is noticeable amount of silt in settling in the bottom of the tank from the breakdown of the AS. I can see this because I am using ADA tank without a rim. When I pulled some extra moss out of the tank along came a pices of AS which crumbled in my hand with the touch of my finger.

This tank was setup in February. All hardscape was set and finished before adding water. I do minimal planting. If I disturb the tank in any way it is a clouded mess for at least a few hours. Long term issues seem to plague this substrate. This is my opinion after use since February. If you really think this is going to get better as time passes I would like to hear your explanations.

I also experienced green spot algae in both tanks I setup with AS.

You can argue that till the cows come home.  I used the product.

I used Eco in several tanks...which produce amazing colors I might add. I am using ro water and notice initial increase in pH. I have no other issues with it then that initial one. I have no problems whatsoever planting stems. I would use this product again.

I think most people said it right, if you have a planned layout and finish all hardscape and planting up front then AS is fine. If not I would suggest something else.


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## eklikewhoa

Are you sure that stuff settling is broken down AS and not just detritus settling?


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## Brilliant

Good question, made me look. Ditritus in my 75g looks reddish or rust colored, it is really noticeable with eco because of contrast in color. This really looks like broken down AS. I did not rinse my AS but the 30cm cube took very little AS and not from bottom of the bag.

I have fern, moss and shrimp in the tank along with a pair of danios that get fed little amount of food. You can make your own judgement. I already made mine.


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## K20A2

Decisions, decisions, decisions.. What shall I do..

I was almost set on aquasoil until I read a few "don't get it if you like to rearrange your tank often" comments. My tanks enter new "ages" every four or five months, with a new design emerging after what the fish undoubtedly think is the apocalypse. 

Anyone move things around every few months and not have any breakdown problems, or bring up powersand?


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## Aen

Yes Aquasoil is soft. In fact it is made from original soil baked and manufactured into pellet form. It absorbs water and can be easily crushed with force. Moving rocks around does not really break Aquasoil since the substrate has room for the Aquasoil to move around. But doing that does release some dust and cloud the water, nothing a water change + good filtration cannot remove.


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## puttyman70

Could the response of AS be affected by the chemistry of the water you put in the tank? With soft water it stays together better, hard water it breaks down or vice verse? If folks could give the parameters of the water they use maybe a correlation could be established.


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## Brilliant

Aen said:


> Yes Aquasoil is soft. In fact it is made from original soil baked and manufactured into pellet form. It absorbs water and can be easily crushed with force. Moving rocks around does not really break Aquasoil since the substrate has room for the Aquasoil to move around. But doing that does release some dust and cloud the water, nothing a water change + good filtration cannot remove.


Funny you mention that. I have a new tank a 30g with AS. I have been running a diatom filter (XL...) for over 10 hours and the tank is still a bit cloudy. Of course I am comparing the water clarity to the identical tank below it started at the same time thats filled with EC. I also moved around a rock early on today, upon lifting a rock out of the water some sludge also came up with the rock, sludge in the form of crushed AS created from rock movement.

I dont mean to knock this product. It grows plants very well but lets not ignore or downplay the facts. I am just sharing my experience calling BS on certain issues. 

It would be better to take this with a grain of salt and plan/setup all hardscape before adding water.


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## Nick

I have to chime in here with a couple of observations here. 

Firstly, I'm not sure where people get this notion that substrates, and particularly AS, become 'neutral' over time. AS and other substrates like it are good because of their intrinsic nutrient holding capacity (there high CEC), which actually should be a fundamental quality of a nutritious soil. Incidentally, it is also one of the key points about Tropica's new substrate additive (read their website for more info). Suffice to say, this property isn't going to become 'neutral' over the time, and also provides for a mechanism for binding other nutrient anions in the soil (e.g. phophates) - i.e. anion exchange capacity.

It seems to me this issue of AS breaking up reflects more about how you treat it than anything else. I have a tank that is well over a year old, has been moved from one house to another, has had plenty of stuff up-rooted in it, and still the AS (Malaya in this case) is in great shape. So my experience of reasonably long use is that it is perfectly stable.

In terms of any other issues with AS, particularly Amazonia (which i've just set-up another tank with and have seen stunning growth of stems within just a week), they are all managable as far as I can see. I use it with hardwater (a benefit in my mind) and any yellow tinge I get (if it isn't from the bog wood) is minimal, and no big deal. Just use some Purigen or carbon if it bothers you that much (I use Purigen). The leaching is no big mystery-it is just humic acids coming out of it, the same as is leaching out of bog wood.

I just think people perceive issues will arise with things like this, when actually, a lot more problems are probably related to other things going on in your tank - inadequate/inconsistent CO2, over-dosing home made ferts you've mixed up in the kitchen, too much light for too long or whatever. I've tried a lot of fert regimes and substrates over the years, and I've found AS to be the easiest/best to deal with while givnig me desired results.

Just my two pence worth in a debate that seems to never end!


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