# Ludwigia "cuba" new growth question



## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Here's some L. 'cuba' I purchased at a LFS on 6/5. Why is the new growth developing such wide leaves? The stems are and have been (so far as I know) grown submersed.

This is in my 40 gal tank:
192W PC (1 10000K and 1 8800K bulb)
pH = 6.8
kh = 6.5
gh = 19
NO3 = 5ppm
PO4 = .5ppm
Flourish dosed .5ml/day
K2SO4 dosed 5ppm 2-3 times a week

Thanks.

Bill


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I am wondering if this is a daylength effect. I am guessing that you are giving the plant relatively short days. I have the species growing on 14 hours of light (8:00 AM to 10:00PM), and the leaves stay narrow. How many hours are you giving your plant?


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

It's getting 13 hours total, 11 hours with both bulbs, with an hour on each end with just a single bulb. I'm wondering if it's being caused by the 10000K bulb that's over it. It's seems to be getting leggier along with the wider leaves. As an experiment I'm swapping my 8800K and 10000K fixtures so it'll be under the 8800K bulb to see what happens. But I'll also try lengthing the light duration over it by another hour. I'll see what happens over the next two weeks or so.

What type of bulb(s) are you using over it?


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

DUDE! That's just so cool! My personal preference is for wide or round leaves over narrow, so if I thought that the wider-leafed growth on the L. sp. 'Cuba' were the norm for the species, I probably would have been interested in putting some in my tanks. 

If you ever figure out what specifically causes this, I'd love to know! I just love how the veins are red, and the tips of the leaves have a subtle blush. Too cool!

-Naomi


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Oh, BTW, did you purchase it at Albany Aquarium? Their last shipment had Hemianthus callitrichoides, the L. 'Cuba' AND Tonina fluviatilis! I was so tempted to try all of these, but I'm having problems growing the plants I already have. 

-Naomi


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

> What type of bulb(s) are you using over it?


5000 K compact fluorescents. The plant has been growing quite rapidly. It came up in a tray intended for crypts from some tiny bit of stem that settled in there on its own. It is beginning to shade out some very small crypts I am trying to get started, and so I am going to have to yank it out. 
Maybe it is the color temperature of the bulb, rather than the daylength. If it is becomming leggier, that, along with the rounder leaves is an indication that it is shifting back to the emersed form, which is totally different.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Some updated pictures from this morning.

Can a plant really think it's emersed while it's 10" under water? :lol:

Naomi,
Yes. I did get it from Albany the other week. I saw the Hemianthus but was scared off by the price :shock:. Anyway I don't have room for additional groundcover right now.
[/rationalization]


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

It is starting to look like a red-stemmed H. polysperma! That plant certainly has a variety of appearances. When fully emersed, it is thick stemmed with dark green widely separated diamond-shaped leaves that have petioles.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

I don't know guys...it's like planting a rose garden and having it bloom carnations! :lol:

Anyways, I've ordered some stellata ans Blyxa japonica so my quest for the ultimate bottlebrush continues...


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I have had about three shipments of Eusteralis stellata, and none of them survived. The plants lose all their leaves and then the stem rots from the cut end until it is gone. I had two shipments of Ludwigia sp. pantanal which died the same way. Bharada, let me know how your stellata does.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Oh great! Thanks for the confidence boost! 

I placed the order with Florida Driftwood, but got a message that it wouldn't be in stock until the end of the month. Now you got me thinking if I should even bother...oh well, there's also the Blyxa to look forward to. I also have some Xmas moss in the order so it wouldn't be a total loss if the stellata melts in transit.

Back on topic, the 'cuba' seems to be putting out a lot of side shoots so if nothing else I'll be able to propagate it and move some stems to my 29 gal tank.


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

I noticed your GH of 19.

I was playing around with coral crush in bags in my canister filter in an attempt to raise my Calcium-levels. The GH and KH skyrocketed (I terminated the experiment at GH of 15 - initial GH of 3.5) and several plants started to show emersed leaves, pretty much as yours, but my Ludwigia incliniata var verticillata "Cuba" got smaller leaves - more of a stunted look


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

I've had Ludwigia sp Cuba grow leaves like that once and only once. The tank had been neglected for a couple of months and the new growth, when I returned home, was growing in with those same broad leaves. 

To me, it was a sign of less than optimal conditions. BBA and BGA were running rampant in the tank at that point.

I haven't grown it under 10k bulbs, but I've only grown it under a mix of 8800k bulbs and 6700k bulbs. Intensity doesn't seem to be as much of an issue, as I have been able to grow it under 2 wpg PC with narrow leaves (although not the best coloration or size).

Hope this helps,

Carlos


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Carlos, the tank is in pretty good shape, except for the hair algae that insists on covering the driftwood . There is one stem that seems to be maintaining the narrow leaf form and it's behind a vertical piece of driftwood so may not be getting the same intensity of light the rest do. So maybe there is something to do with the quality of light it receives.

Here are a couple more pics showing the surrounding areas...









The circled area is the 'cuba'









Top down shot.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Just a quick update to the state of my 'cuba'. Definitely taking on a gnarly look. I've replaced the 10000K bulb so now both my fixtures are running 8800K bubs.


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## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

Is it just me or does the latest photos looks like a deficiency of some sort?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Add more traces, and KNO3(aim for a 10ppm or slightly higher target) and Ca/Mg. If your GH is 19, check to see how much Mg is in there or add a little MgSO4 just in case after the water change.
Add a tad more CO2.

That will cover most of your bases.
You are low likely on something and I do not think it's anything to do with the light.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Thanks guys.

Tom, I'll start upping my traces and see where it goes. I'm already at 35-40ppm in CO2 (KH 6.5, pH 6.7). Do you think upping that will have a positive effect on the 'cuba'?


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

Did anything improve?


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

ShaneSmith said:


> Did anything improve?


Somewhat. After the first couple of days things looked like they'd be alright, but after the fifth day or so the new growth started coming in nearly white and small so there's still seems that there's some imbalance with the Ca in my water. I dosed some additonal Mg last night since that seemed to spark the first turn around. Now I just have to wait and see.

All the other plants in my tank (L. repens, L. aromatica, Lobelia, Micranthemoides, Alternanthera, C. Wendtii, Myriophyllum) are doing great, so it's frustrating to see this one plant limping along. It'd be better if it would have outright melted


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

This plant seems to use a great deal of micronutrients and suffers quickly when there is a shortage. I have been placing Flourish tabs under my cuba once a month to keep it healthy, towards the end of the month deficiencies start like clockwork, then I know it's time to add more tabs. Obviously you can also add traces to your water but I prefer a leaner water column and richer substrate myself, either way, this plant sure is a pain in the rear to keep looking good. Seems to be similar to E. Stellata as far as deficiencies go, while the rest of the plants are growing perfectly, these two in my tanks are the first to show deficiencies (since I tossed my A. gracilis out) and they both seem to respond well to the tabs I give them.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I like Guincarlo's advice. Sounds simple and keeps lees stuff from the water column. As far as uppin ghte CO2 levels go, I have tried keeping levels in the 50's with out any noticable improvement. This lasted for a few weeks. I later read the plants are not really able to use more than 30ppm of CO2 so any more than that is waste.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Ginacarlo and Dennis: Thanks for the tips. I'll give it a try and report back.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Well, I added some Flourish tabs beneath the 'cuba' on Friday and things continued to go south with it. I actually had three of the new shoots turn gray and start to melt (sorry, I clipped those and threw them out before snapping the picture).

Since everything else was still going gangbusters under the new dosing routine I looked to see what other change I had made that coincided with the plant's decline. The only thing I could see was that I stopped dosing K2SO4. So I added 10ppm last night and the tops seem to be showing a lttle more color this morning.

Maybe my fish load is enough to require some additional K so I'll try supplementing my KN03 dosing with K2SO4 and see if that stabilizes the plant.


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

Just a thought, but have you been keeping up on your KH2PO4 dosing as well? I grew this plant for about a year and have quite a few observations:

1) Growth slows down when pruned too often and too severely.

2) Growth slows down when not given enough space. This is a BIG stem plant with individual stems getting as thick as my pinky. The whorls can be up to six inches in diameter. Give it the space it needs.

3) Lighting. Don't let anything shade it. It MUST be in the light!

4) Low CO2 levels and poor conditions cause smaller, weaker growth with broader leaves and fewer leaves per whorl.

5) High PO4 levels (1.5-2ppm) and moderate NO3 levels (~10ppm) in the water column result in the most robust, largest, most colorful growth. This plant can be A LOT more colorful than what all the photos on the net have shown. It seems that lower PO4 levels cause greener growth, IME. When not enough nutrients are being supplied through the water column, this plant stalls even though it may have substrate fertilization at the roots. Comparing notes with another hobbyist, it seems that this plant prefers to take up its nutrients through the water column instead of the substrate.

6) I dose plenty of iron. I don't know how it reacts to low iron, but I dosed about 30mL Flourish + 25 mL Flourish Iron every week in my 55g at ~4 wpg PC.

7) Neat fact: the stems, although large, are brittle and hollow on the inside. 

Hope my experiences shed a little more light. This is my favorite stem plant of all. IMO, it's the most beautiful.

Carlos


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Thanks Carlos. Right now I'm dosing about 8ppm of KN03 and >1ppm of PO4 (fleet enema) every other day. I'm dosing 10ml of TMG on opposing days. So far adding the K2SO4 has shown an immediate sign of improvement.

Right now the stems are no more than 3/16" at their base and the tips are pretty slender. They are in a spot where they get full light so hopefully I'll get the nutrients right soon.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

So here's the new growth since I started re-dosing K2SO4 on Saturday. It's quite a bit of an improvement. Maybe if I had been dosing KH2PO4 instead of using Fleet enema the additional K would have been enough to do the trick.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Well, I officially give up with this plant in my 40. The nice new growth gradually grayed leaving only the shoot tip green. It's like it can't compete for nutrients against the other plants over time.

I gave the best looking stem away to someone who lives near by then chopped the rest of the stems up. I planted whatever small shoots I could salvage in my 29. The two stems I placed in there a few weeks ago haven't been doing great, but they are putting out some compact new growth that has maintained its color.


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## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Hey, Bill.

Sorry to hear that it wasn't working out in the 40. I hope you have better results in the 29. I'm wondering - when you pulled up the stems from the 40, had they established a healthy root system? I've noticed that with some supposed fast-growers, they put out scrawny new growth until the roots have had a chance to grow out enough. This always happens when I top and replant R. indica. 

I also have no inclination to "cater to" a single species. If it can't keep up, it either gets banished to one of my other tanks or I find a new owner for it. It's a plant-eat-plant world in my tanks. I try to provide what I can to keep most of them happy, but this means I'm limited to only the hardiest species. 

Well, keep us posted on how the pieces in the 29 are doing. Good luck!

-Naomi


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Naomi,
All the stems I pulled were firmly rooted in the gravel with very healthy looking roots. The lower stems were all firm...it was only the new growth that would start going south. If I had more open space in the 40 I might have planted the clippings in there, but anything that low to the ground would soon be covered over by something or other.


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

I really, really doubt that this plant wasn't competing effectively for nutrients with the other plants. When I used to grow Ludwigia sp Cuba in my 55 gal, I had it with about four dozen other plant species including Limnophila aromaticoides ("Gratiola"), Hemianthus micranthemoides, Heteranthera zosterifolia, Myriophyllum matogrossense, and the like. 

I found this plant to be very competitive and very invasive, regularly outpacing the Ammania gracilis right beside it and, thus, smothering it if I didn't keep it in check.

I'm starting to think that water hardness may be the culprit. Ludwigia inclinata and Ludwigia Pantanal (another form of inclinata) are purported to require softer water much like the Toninas, so it wouldn't surprise me if the third form of inclinata (Ludwigia Cuba) prefers softer water as well. Perhaps NOT soft GH 2-3 water, but perhaps 15-20 dGH is a bit much.

Don't give up with it. I found it to be the most rewarding stem plant to grow. Manipulating the nutrient ratios (N/P) is a lot of fun with this one, as you can get it to turn from green to an assorted rainbow of oranges/reds.

Carlos


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Carlos,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. The good news is that the clipping I placed in my 29g are showing signs of life so all is not lost.

I just added pressurized CO2 to that tank and I'm still fiddling with the water parameters to fight off a mild case of bba that has developed on some of the plants.

I'll revive this thread and post new pictures if the'cuba' makes a recovery.


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## clay (Jul 3, 2004)

could it have been allelopathy? walstad has a whole chapter on the subject. are they near the same plants in the 29 as in the 40g? just a thought, but if you are putting that much nutrients into the substrate and water column, then i would think that that would have solved it.

clay


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Bill, 

If the cuba continues to go down hill, as a last resort, prepare a 50:50 mixture of topsoil and peat, with some ground up limestone or ground up egg shell mixed in, put it in a glass tray and weigh the plants down on the surface with pebbles. Avoid plastic trays. They give off substances that are harmful to aquatic plants. Keep NO3 and PO4 at around 10ppm and 1ppm, and give the plants all the light you can. The topsoil should be collected from your lawn or a woods, or anyplace where plants are growing.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

I finally got another PO4 test kit (my old one ran out a couple of weeks ago) and measured the PO4 level in the 29g at >5ppm. No wonder the algae was starting to build up again. I've done a couple of water changes and now have PO4 and NO3 levels back in line so hopefully the 'cuba' can make it in this tank.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Well, here's my little 'cuba' growout farm.  I'll know in a couple of weeks if there's hope for the new growth.


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

I got some cuba about the same time and from the same place as you (Thanks Gnome). Mine is also a little slow to grow (Might be because its so low to the ground right now its no getting enough light). It looks like your growout farm pics. I would like to know if you find the secrete to this plabt. Mine has grown a half inch in the time i have had it (A week or two?)


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## jerseyjay (Jan 25, 2004)

IME this plant is very sensitive when extreme hacking is performed and it will take "a while" to recover. "A while" means days, weeks, month, depends on your setups. I got this plant couple years ago and was able to grow and sell a lot on aquabid. At some point when I was taking orders in advance and hacking every single side shot, plant stopped growing and went into "dead phase". It began to melt, top looked burned and crippled. It was sitting like that for about 3 weeks and without any changes picked up again like a true weed it is. I still have this plant in my tank and have yet to go through the same process.

Give it some time and it will recover in no time.


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