# Will tonina sp. belem die in non-soft water?



## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm not talking particularly of hard water since I think my water is somewhat neutral. Will the tonina plant die or just grow slower?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Mine is KH 3, Gh 5 or so, grows very well.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

So can I assume that Bay Area water is good enough?


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## Erirku (Oct 5, 2004)

Have you tested your water params! A lot of posts have been put on these species of plants, especially the specs of people who are growing them very well!!! Do not be discouraged to do some searching. Good luck


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I do not think they will die if you do not have soft water/ADa substrates and other unfounded claims.

My water is moderate, I've kept these species in harder water in the recent past without issue and had good branching etc.
I've used both Onyx and Flourite with good success.

Same for any plant........
A few plants will do better iof the KH is less than say 5-6, but otherwise the hardness, KH and certainly not GH matters unless too low for GH.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

for me - best results was in KH 2-5 and ADA aquasoil. its growing on any other substrate but looks the best in ADA substrate or something like it (elos terra , red sea - flora base )


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## thatguy (Oct 16, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I do not think they will die if you do not have soft water/ADa substrates and other unfounded claims.
> 
> My water is moderate, I've kept these species in harder water in the recent past without issue and had good branching etc.
> I've used both Onyx and Flourite with good success.
> ...


tom.

in my fluorite only tank, my toninas are just not making it. everything else grows great, i mean very very well. but not the toninas. same specs as what you have. co2 injected, high light (260 over a 55 gallon), kh 3, over 30ppm of co2, ph 6.5-6.6.
all that i have read about toninas, claim they need soft acidic water to thrive, especially the soil. almost everyone person ive seen post on different forums say that in soft acidic soil like ada, it grows well and those who grow it in fluorite have it waste away. as is the case with mine.

you seem to be the only person who can grow it in plain old fluorite, do you have any other secrets to getting it to grow? id really like to keep the toninas without having to switch over to ada soil. which also reminds me, when is your soil going to come to the market? i am very interested in it as are many others.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

A more accurate statement would be to say that Toninas will not survive well in non-acidic waters. My water is 12 Gh and 2-3 KH and so would be considered hard. However, the pH in my tank stays at 6.5 or lower and this is the key to keeping Toninas.


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## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

Well my toninas died after the blackout


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

A few things I have noticed about growing my tonina's.
1. DO NOT do any sort of blackout-they hate it and do not recover very quickly at all.
2.Try to keep the KH lower than 5 if posible
3. Preferably a ph of 6.6 or lower seems to be good
4. Obviously high light and co2
5.This may be a matter of opinion according to Tom Barr, but I believe the substrate works much better when it is acidic(florabase, ADA).
6. This species seems to like a higher iron dosing regimine in the water, since double dosing it seems like they grow faster and pearl much more

Even when I had all my water parameters locked on with high Co2 and low PH, they never really growed well for me until I put them in ADA substrate. They lived for a while but never looked very strong and healthy and would very slowly start to turn brown at the substrate. Root formation was also very weak with much more roots along the stems and almost 0 in the soil. The browning process happened very slowly for me though-a period of months here.

These are just my opinions to what I have seen happen in my tanks. Ofcourse this is not written in stone or anything and I am sure I will have some people disagree with me. Just thought I would share my experiences.


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## fishfry (Apr 15, 2004)

I will join the bandwagon, I have never had success with Tonina in hardwater, I never actually had any success at all until I used aquasoil. I am not saying it can't be done just because I can't do it though, but aquasoil and low KH/pH works very well for me (my Ludwigia sp. pantanal loves it too).


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## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

This is probably why on the aquasoil bag it specifically says that its good for growing tonina belem


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## thatguy (Oct 16, 2005)

the more i ask around and research, most people who are successful with the toninas use ada or flora base.

some have high kh and gh. some have low. but among them all, they all seem to have acidic substrate via ada or flora base.


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## phillipians (Jun 23, 2005)

i also use ADA aquasoil for my toninas and they grow like mad.... almost 40 stalks to trim every 4 - 5 weeks... considering i started off with only around 12 - 15 stalks in a 2ft tank. However i ve heard that dosing more Fe and also high light + good co2 should be able to sustain them. Well i believe you all can try, but honestly i prefer ADA, its a wonderful substrate


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

thatguy said:


> you seem to be the only person who can grow it in plain old fluorite, do you have any other secrets to getting it to grow? id really like to keep the toninas without having to switch over to ada soil. which also reminds me, when is your soil going to come to the market? i am very interested in it as are many others.


The soil is still in the works but actually the soil is here already, but I wanted to find a suitable powersand substitute.

Right now I'm am focusing more on CO2 mist and am about done and then will return to the substrate.

I have no clue as to why my plants do so well and grow faster than ADA soft water substrate mixes folks have, but I get no less than 2-3" a week out my plants which seems to be better than the rest of the ADA soil growers.

Probably a CO2 issue.
Ya, I know every one claims their CO2 is so high and all.........but I have also have high DO levels also and intense pearling so I know the plant nutrients are good.

Some plants like a couple of Rotala's appear to do better in softer water, but I have not seem this in Tonia ever.

I've heard that such and such plant needs soft water for the last 20 years...............so this "Only Tom" thing is bull................I've consistently grown so many supposed soft only plants in hard water it's simply not even funny anymore.

If I can do it, so can anyone..........

I have no secrets, I just maintain the tank well and add nutrients and good CO2, the plants do the rest.

I moved recently to a hard water location and the plants are doing fine........
They also were in the dark for a few days, they ended up branching a lot as a result.

I like them now, at first I thought they looked like Egeria a lot.
But they grow much slower which I enjoy(Egeria will grow 2" a day).

I have FB, EC and ADA substrates also BTW in other tanks........

That's why I say what I do about this.........

If the only way I could grow such and such plant is with a specific product and brand, I would reconsider my growing skills........and try tio improve them to better understand the plant and the method/mechanism.

Finding the limits of plants is one thing, but as stated, the KH is more important than the GH with all soft water preference plants.

So given the peat and softening effects of ADA soils, CO2 is a very likely part of that.

I'll have the clay based soils ready perhaps at the end of the month.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Has anyone tried peat plates under Tonina sp? Did it help non-acidic substrate? Thanks.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Finding the limits of plants is one thing, but as stated, the KH is more important than the GH with all soft water preference plants.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I keep telling this to everybody for a long time.

Edward


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

thatguy said:


> the more i ask around and research, most people who are successful with the toninas use ada or flora base.
> 
> some have high kh and gh. some have low. but among them all, they all seem to have acidic substrate via ada or flora base.


After roughly 8-10 weeks, all flooded substrates turn pH neutral.
This is well known in wetland soil science. So the "reseach" you speak of shows it's not the pH at all......................

My KH is 14 and GH is 17, my Tonia is growing nicely in plain Flourite.

Note: redox values can be low but the pH is often neutral, redox, not pH determines nutrients availability and ion form(eg Fe2+ vs Fe3+).

Ask yourselves this question.........
Why do aquatic substrates go pH neutral over time and why they go more reductive over time(if left alone)?

This is true for all substrates, not just ADA, FB, Flourite, Onyx sand, EC, soil, marine etc..........

I went from tap water that was KH 1 GH 3 and I added only GH to it to raise it to about 8, never an issue with any plant species, but the 1200ft well water is high in KH.

Adding KH and GH individually is relatively easy, I think the KH can be about 5 or less and still get good growth with all species. Still, most species will do very well with higher KH's, so far I've found about 5 species that do poorly in harder water, ironically, Tonia was not one of them, but I hypotheize it would do poorly based on folks accounts, but it fooled me. I've had high GH in the past and lower KH, roughly 9-11 before for a few years, GH of 24.

Now if I can grow it nicely in hard water(Both GH/KH), how can this notion be true based on KH or GH alone?

Something else is going on..............other than KH/GH and certainly not pH..........

Ruling things out is a process of seeing what is true, not what might be true.
If you add PO4 and folks say you should get algae and then you do not, how can excess PO4 cause algae? If you say Tonia is an obligate soft water plant(What does *soft* water really mean???) and I grow it in hard water(high KH) and have grown it in the past well in high GH water, the observations do not match the theory.

So you look elsewhere and re evaluate the test a few times to make sure.
After you rule a few things out, then you get a better idea of the likely canidates.

If it were just the pH/KH etc, we could simply add RO water and not deal with ADA substrates at all don't you think?

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Edward said:


> Originally Posted by plantbrain
> "Finding the limits of plants is one thing, but as stated, the KH is more important than the GH with all soft water preference plants.
> 
> Regards,
> ...


I think we will need to *keep* telling folks for a long time.
I've said many things about soft water obligate plants over the years. We know it's not the GH as many folks add this to 5-10GH routinely.
SeaChem EQ has been around for a long time and folks have used it liberally out here in the Bay area for 8 years or so. I moved 35 miles and went from GH 3 to Gh 17, KH 1 to KH 14, both sources are very stable, and this is the 6th time I've gone from very soft to very hard tap water.
The Bay area is a good place for many tap types. We have many folks in our group and plant swaps so we know what does and does not grow ins a wide range of water parameters.

Even if we say this, many folks will still believe that plants must have this or that product to grow.

There are a few plants that will do better in lower KH(I'd say around 4-5 or less), but very few and Tonia does not appear to be one of them. Rotala wallichii, Eustralis, R macrandra and L cuba and panatal seems to be the main group. Now they will grow in hard water, they just will not thrive in a similar manner nor have the same growth rate.

You can also induce side shoot branching by floating Tonia and making sure you have rich water column nutrients/CO2 mist. But it might be my hard water..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

This is Tonina sp "Belem" after a while in 6.6-6.8pH, 5.5-6.0 dKH, and established SAPS. New growth looks good for a few days, then turns yellow or transparent and gets eaten by animals. My other plants are fine and there is an abundance of K and trace.










Is this a moderate-hard water thing or a non-acidic substrate thing? I can try pots with peat under Schultz, and post results if interested, but would rather save my time it if it as a known KH issue. Thank you.


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