# Walstad Nano Iwagumi



## Hubert

I'm going to try a Walstad Nano Iwagumi. I have a feeling that it's not going to work, but I'm going to be stubborn and try it anyway  Has anyone tried anything similar already? Any hints please as to how to make it work?


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## Dzidek1983

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-iwagumi-style-possible-el-natural-tanks.html


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## Hubert

Thanks for that!  I missed that when I was doing my search.

I think with a nano iwagumi though I'm going to have more problems with the relatively low level of planting. With the rocks in place, there isn't going to be a lot of planting space. It's probably going to take careful juggling of livestock bioload, photoperiod, plants etc. I'm partly restricted by the plants I have access to here in Australia, but I think I will try dwarf Anubias, pygmy Amazon Swords, Glosso and Fontinalis; I can't seem to get HC or Riccia here. And I'm thinking a small bioload of just 2-3 guppies and maybe a snail and a shrimp. BTW, where do people get shrimps from? I can't seem to get them around here...


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## Dzidek1983

shops 

aquarium exchange markets, internet, friends.. and many more


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## ItsDubC

Ya, I've always felt that an Iwagumi NPT would be the ultimate challenge because of the low overall plantmass. I've given it some thought tho and have decided that I will try it at a later time using two techniques to increase my chances of success.

The first technique would be to grow my groundcover emersed until it completely covers the substrate before filling the tank w/ water completely. This may take weeks depending on the size and type of groudcover being used, but would allow the plantmass to be well-rooted and healthy from the start. Not only would this technique result in a higher plantmass from the beginning, but the already-rooted plants may also be better at adjusting to their new environment and therefore have a higher chance of fending off an algae takeover. More info can be found here: http://www.barrreport.com/articles/3594-dry-start-up-method-planted-aquariums.html

The second thing I would do is after filling the tank w/ water, stock it w/ enough floating plants to ward off algae but not enough to greatly inhibit the amount of light reaching the groundcover plants. The groundcover plants will be transitioning from emersed growth to submersed growth and will need all the help they can get to stay healthy, but at the same time you don't want algae to take hold while they are vulnerable. Fast-growing floating plants such as hornwort can help with this until the groundcover plants have adjusted to submersed life.

These are just ideas that I've considered in tackling my future Iwagumi NPT. Does anyone think that these ideas wouldn't work?


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## flagg

I think your nano iwagumi would work. Robert Hudson (who used to host this forum) just had an article published in the April issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist which should be out soon, in which he describes "el natural" pico setups, one of which looks like an iwagumi layout. He describes the setup using soil and pool filter sand and small, low-growing plants. Keep an eye out for the article as it might help you out with plant selection and such.

-ricardo


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## Robert Hudson

> I think your nano iwagumi would work. Robert Hudson (who used to host this forum) just had an article published in the April issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist which should be out soon, in which he describes "el natural" pico setups, one of which looks like an iwagumi layout. He describes the setup using soil and pool filter sand and small, low-growing plants. Keep an eye out for the article as it might help you out with plant selection and such.


Flagg, you have been misinformed to some extent. I do have an article coming out in TFH in April, but it has nothing to do with Iwagumi or "El natural". Its about extreme nano containers, featuring two gentlemen from Brazil. It does talk about using very small plants such as HC, but it doesn't talk about soil or sand particularly.

I think its great that people are starting to talk about aquascaping techniques with the Walstad approach. I would love to see examples. Basic layout design is just placement of plants. From that standpoint , I don't know why any aquascaping model wouldn't work. Where it gets tricky is waiting for it to grow in. When you talk to the people who are really into aquascaping, most want fast growth so they can mold and sculpt the aquascape. Without excellerated growth, its not as fun for these people. Its wait, wait, wait. Any design modle such as Iwagumi which has a large "carpet" area will take time to fill in and under low tech would take a VERY long time, but there are other design models where super fast growth would not play a role.


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## Squawkbert

I'm thinking a bunch of duckweed floating around (except for picture taking time) might be helpful... as might the slightly emersed carpet technique.


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## Robert Hudson

Duckweed! Yuck!


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## newbie314

Yeah Duckweed


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## Hubert

Thanks everyone for your encouragement and the great ideas! I've got the cube nano tank and the rocks, just need to get plants, soil, light and gravel. I might even get started with the hardscape side of things this weekend. I'll post some pics once I get started.

Thanks especially for the link to Tom Barr's "Dry Start Up Method", that sounds like a really good idea and I think I just might try that. With the particular layout that I have in mind, I'm actually worried that there isn't going to be enough "lawn" area. So I'm going to make maximum use of slopes to try to increase the surface area. Can't wait to get started!

Oh and I'm also going to try and do it so it looks good from all four sides... wish me luck


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## ItsDubC

Keep us updated Hubert. I'd especally like to know how the Dry Start Up Method works out. Can't wait to see your Iwagumi NPT


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## Hubert

Eek, sorry for the ugly photos. I guess my room just isn't set up to be a studio! Not yet anyway.

To try and avoid/minimise issues with anaerobic pockets, I built up a central column of gravel & rocks for my largest piece of rock.









Here it is once it had been built up.









With the rocks in place, this is the front, back and sides.

































I tried to make it slope more to increase surface area for plants, but this was as high as I could seem to build it up. Some of the rock edges are exposed, but I'm trying to allow room for the gravel. In fact, I'm probably going to have to remove some soil. Anyway, just waiting for glosso now as Australia seems to have run out of glosso...


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## ItsDubC

Looks like a great start. I like the rockwork a lot. Will you be planting the other plants while you wait for the glosso?


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## orlando

Very Nice, well done.


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## Hubert

Hehe I managed to get some HC today which was a complete surprise! So here it is, the emersed method.


















I tried to choose gravel that wasn't too small, to try and avoid the anaerobic thing happening. However, it meant that the gravel was a bit hard to handle up the steep slope, I kept on getting gravel landslides. From a scale point of view, the gravel also looks a bit large, but I guess eventually it'll all be covered up anyway.

I'm going to wait until it all settles in and I've filled it before adding more plants. Blyxa can't be grown emersed I think, though Riccia can, but I think I'll wait a bit.


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## flagg

Robert Hudson said:


> Flagg, you have been misinformed to some extent. I do have an article coming out in TFH in April, but it has nothing to do with Iwagumi or "El natural". Its about extreme nano containers, featuring two gentlemen from Brazil. It does talk about using very small plants such as HC, but it doesn't talk about soil or sand particularly.


I apologize Robert, I didn't mean to misrepresent your article. I did go back and re-read it and meant to edit the post to say that in that article, there was a nano paludarium in which the creator had used garden soil, compost and pool filter sand as a substrate. I assume if it was done in a paludarium, it could easily be recreated in a regular nano or pico "el natural" aquarium.

-ricardo

PS By the way Hubert: nice looking tank! I think you're off to a great start with your tank!


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## Hubert

Thanks for the nice comments  I'm just going to sit and wait now and see what happens, I'll post another pic in a couple of weeks when it has grown a bit. So far it looks OK, the HC seems to be adjusting from submersed growth to emersed growth.


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## Jeff.:P:.

Very nice!


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## hooha

I've done a few Iwagumi style, soil-based picos. All of them are under the care of non-aquarium people (my brother, father and brother-in-law) and they love them. Other than water changes there is no further dosing or maintenance.

HC and Eliocharis parvula do well in the setups, as well as Anubias barteri 'petite', although if you put both HC and E. parvula in the same tank without any way to separate the two, the parvula eventually takes over the tank and chokes out the HC.

I like your rockwork, it's a good start. The amount of HC you placed in there will take a few months to spread out to the rest of the tank.

I've had some green water and hair algae issues when setting up these tanks, but with frequent (either daily or every other day) water changes they clear up in no time. I actually set up the tanks more like AaronT in his "El Natural with a Twist" thread, although I did not have to use CO2 with my setups.


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## Hubert

Thanks hooha for your post, it's good to know that someone else has successfully done this before!

In terms of flora, I planned, as well as the HC, to have Blyxa japonica and Anubias barteri 'Petite'. Did you have any fauna in the ones you set up? I'm thinking of a few shrimp (for algae control) and a few guppies (which hopefully won't eat the shrimp). What sizes were the picos you set up? What light source and photoperiod did you end up using? It sounds like my setup will be very similar to yours, except that I was prepared to do a bit of dosing in the beginning if I needed to, but it sounds like you did just fine without dosing at all.

I'm trying the emersed method, so hopefully the HC might fill in a bit more quickly, but we'll have to wait and see what happens.


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## hooha

The first was a 4in cube, I think that's like a quart in volume. The other two are 8in cubes, which is about a gallon in volume. For all of them I've just used a desktop lamp with a screw-in flourescent, either 10watt or 13 watt, 6500K spectrum. I raised them up as high as the lamp will allow while shining directly in the tank to avoid too much heating from the bulb. Photoperiod is about 8 hours for each.

I have dosed Flourish in the past (one drop a day or every other day) if the HC started yellowing, that perked them up right away. Otherwise, just regular top-offs and water changes.

I've added one or two Neritina sp. snails and cherry or crystal red shrimp. I wouldn't added either of these until the HC is well established though. I also have Endlers males in the tanks. Size-wise they seem to fit well. I used to have Galaxy rasboras, but they would jump out of the tank after top-off (they wouldn't jump out otherwise). I think if you keep up on top-offs and water changes you can likely keep the galaxies in this type of setup without a cover, although a cover would be best.

I think you'll probably get a little quicker spread with the emersed method. Do you have a cover on the tank to keep the humidity up? That will help.

I feel your pain about the sloping, in my tanks I've used Soil Master select and despite several different approaches I still lose the slope.


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## ItsDubC

I'm actually growing some HC emersed in a tupperware to see how fast it grows compared to the HC planted in my NPT so I know what to expect when I go through w/ my dry start-up method NPT later on.

One thing confuses me tho. I keep the humidity high in my tupperware by covering it w/ cling wrap and keeping it there w/ a rubber band but by doing this, am I not inhibiting co2 from entering the tupperware? If Hubert is covering his tank to maintain humidity but uncovers it briefly on a daily basis, will his HC have enough co2 to grow fast?


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## Hubert

Yup my tank is covered and the sides are all misted up, which I take to be a good sign of high humidity inside. I've also just started spraying everything with water daily, as I'm worried that the HC on the top of the slopes aren't getting enough moisture via capillary action. It all seems to be looking OK so far, though I haven't really observed any massive growth, but it's only been a few days I guess!

The cover on my tank isn't a tight fit, plus there is a small gap in the cover for cables etc, so I guess there is some CO2 getting in. However, just for the fun of it, I've been breathing into my tank every morning, just to give it a bit of a CO2 boost. Hey, maybe once it's set up if I want to give it a CO2 boost, I could blow some bubbles into the water with a straw! 

ItsDubC, I think you will get some CO2 via the bacteria in the soil. Not sure whether it will be enough, but then again, isn't that how some terrariums are set up, as self-contained mini-ecosystems? It's probably going to be fine for a while is my guess.

hooha, good to hear that I'm not the only one struggling with sloping gravel. I'm thinking now that a layer of ADA Amazonia on top of the soil might have been a better idea, but I'm going to just leave it as it is for the time being and not going to touch it now I think.


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## Revernance

I actually tried it. I'll let you guys have a picture when I get back to my dorm.


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## goalcreas

Any update photos?


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## Hubert

Sorry not yet. The bloody HC is sooo slooow... I'm wondering whether the emersed method on gravel is necessarily the best way. It's all going to take a bit longer than I had originally planned I'm afraid.

I'd be interested to see your photos Revernance!


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## hooha

Once it's grown out to twice it's original mass and rooted well, you can add water and grow submersed. The soil method with HC does take quite some time to fill in (usually two+months).


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## Hubert

Thanks for the encouragement hooha  The HC at the bottom of the slopes are doing well and spreading, but the HC on the top of the slopes has died back though. I'm wondering whether capillary action isn't taking enough water up to the HC on the slopes... Oh and BTW, my temporary terrarium has a little slug family living inside and some spiders too!


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## hooha

lol, where did those come from?

You may be right about the higher part of the slopes....I've never done the method before myself, but maybe you can fill up the tank with water a little bit to get enough to the higher slopes?


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## ItsDubC

Since you mentioned that the HC at the bottom of the slopes is doing well already, perhaps you can go ahead and submerse that HC in order to raise the water level so that the HC on the top can get more water?


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## Hubert

Thanks for the tip  But I'm afraid it was all a little too late for the HC islands on the top of the slopes, they're pretty much all dead. So I've decided to submersed them all now and see what happens. The HC coverage really isn't that great, but I guess I'm growing patient! I really should take a photo and show you guys an update. The HC is happily making bubbles so hopefully it's making the transition from emersed to submersed growth OK. Will have to wait and see whether it dies back...


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## Hubert

This is the before shot, some 2 months ago.









This is the now shot of the same patch of HC.









The algae is a bit annoying but I know it's quite common at this stage. The bits of dirt happened as I was filling up the tank, I managed to disturb the soil and it went everywhere!


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## Jeff.:P:.

I really really want your rock. nice job on the HC btw.


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## hooha

looking good! You can gently gravel vac the soil off the plants with an airline tube, just make sure you put your finger over the end of the tube in the water before you take it out or it will muss up the soil again when water comes out that end


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## orlando

This is going to be very cool, when do we get the full shot?


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## Hubert

I guess I was hoping it would look a little nicer before I took full shots, but then I again I guess I'm documenting the process, so I should be showing the good, the bad and the ugly! I'll take some shots tomorrow when it's daylight and post them for you to see 

So at the moment:

CO2: I blow bubbles into it with a straw when I get bored and because I'm impatient and want faster growth 
Filtration: No mechanical filtration
Flora: HC, Blyxa, Dwarf Amazon Sword and Algae :heh:
Fauna: None yet, I want to have denser flora before I introduce any fauna. Oh, except there are two tiny baby snails (I thought they were slugs before but I couldn't tell when they were that small), they must have come with the HC.
Dosing: None, though I might be tempted...
Substrate: Soil and gravel


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## Tex Gal

LOVE the rocks. Waiting for a new pxs.......


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## Hubert

OK now, don't laugh, it's not finished yet!! 


































Yes there's a snail there and no I didn't feed the baby snails steroids overnight. It is from my goldfish tank, I've given it a special visiting fauna permit: it has permission to eat all the algae, but it's not allowed to indulge in hermaphroditic parthogenesis. Not sure whether this species of snail can self reproduce anyway but it's been told in no uncertain terms to abide by this agreement, or it will pay :heh:

Is it just me or has the soil subsided somewhat? My rock edges seem to be showing... Hopefully plants will cover up some of the edges, but I might have to cover up some of the edges a bit more with gravel. I feel like I've lost some height and steepness of the slope, which was supposed to add to the drama, as well as providing greater surface area for HC and thus maximise plantmass.

What do people think about no filter? Do you think it's going to work? There's already quite a funny temperature gradient thing happening, which I guess happens in real life biotopes. Without any water agitation, the top of the tank is warm and the bottom of the tank is cold.

Come on grow HC grow!!!


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## Tex Gal

Thanks for the px. It's gonna be nice when it fills in. Hope your snail lives up to his end of the bargin.


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## newbie314

I like it.
You could almost take pictures at 45o turn and animate it. Would be cool.
Soil will compress.

So what is defined as Iwagumi.
I have all my tanks without filters and just light


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## Kets

Hubert said:


> OK now, don't laugh, it's not finished yet!!
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> Yes there's a snail there and no I didn't feed the baby snails steroids overnight. It is from my goldfish tank, I've given it a special visiting fauna permit: it has permission to eat all the algae, but it's not allowed to indulge in hermaphroditic parthogenesis. Not sure whether this species of snail can self reproduce anyway but it's been told in no uncertain terms to abide by this agreement, or it will pay :heh:
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> Is it just me or has the soil subsided somewhat? My rock edges seem to be showing... Hopefully plants will cover up some of the edges, but I might have to cover up some of the edges a bit more with gravel. I feel like I've lost some height and steepness of the slope, which was supposed to add to the drama, as well as providing greater surface area for HC and thus maximise plantmass.
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> What do people think about no filter? Do you think it's going to work? There's already quite a funny temperature gradient thing happening, which I guess happens in real life biotopes. Without any water agitation, the top of the tank is warm and the bottom of the tank is cold.
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> Come on grow HC grow!!!


That's an apple snail, right? Those are single gendered and they lay their eggs ABOVE the water line.


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## Shurik

Dear Hubert! 
Thank you for inviting me to see your work!  I really like your little mountain, it looks good now and it will look only better when it fills in. 

Yes, I do see we did have an approximately same idea about anaerobic pockets, this issue doesn’t let me fall asleep.  I am just about to start setting up my 50 gal and haven’t decided on how exactly I am going to build my “mountains”. I was going to use some plastic milk jars, if I cut out the top and the bottom, so I can build like a foundation on top of it. Oh, do I even need to cut off the bottom? 

Looks like things are going fine with your tank; the only thing is how would you really know if you DO have those pockets? 
How deep of a substrate can you go with El Natural, 2’? 3”? 5”? 
I got too many questions, sorry about it! 
I love your method of supplying CO2! :mrgreen:

Will wait for an update. Good luck!


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