# Another set of questions on guess what?!?!?!



## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Hello again everyone!

So, I realize that this subject has probably been beaten to death a million times, but to be honest, I am in sort of a pickle right now and am having problems finding unconflicting information on a few CO2 questions I have. So, I appologize, but if you could, please bear with me....

So, I have a planted tank now....which you can read about in my first posts on this forum here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...uariums/37735-aquarium-vet-new-to-plants.html

As suggested, I went out and secured a pressurized Co2 system which is comprised of a 20 pound CO2 tank (which was free by the way, hence the slightly too large size)








A bubble counter:








And a CO2 reactor:








(which I took a picture of the wrong side of the box without realizing it...the other side is in english)









Anyways, I emptied the CO2 tank becasue it was older and I was unsure as to how old that CO2 was or if that would even matter (better safe than sorry I guess) and had it filled up....which by the way, cannot be filled completely so it holds about 16 pounds of CO2 or slightly over 3/4 full. I have the whole system set up, checked, double checked, and running fine at this point....and now I have questions about the future and my methods of maintaining this tank with CO2...

First, I was told that I should be setting this system to run at about one CO2 bubble per second or 1.5 seconds....which it is doing at this point. The thing I am not sure about is how I can know if this amount of CO2 is correct for my specific tank, plants, and number of plants?

Second, I was told, and also agree, that I need to introduce the CO2 to my tank gradually so as not to shock my fish or change my pH too much in a short amount of time. Since this made complete sense to me, I started off by running the Co2 for four hours a day....between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. After losing a couple of fish suddenly and without any obvious visual ques as to why that happened, I decided to stick with the four hours of CO2, however this time the system only runs for one hour, at four different times during the day while the lights are on in the tank...I believe it turns on at 8 am, 11 am, 2 pm, and 5 pm, or something close to that. My question is, which method is better to go with...a four hour chunk of continuous CO2 time, or shorter CO2 periods multiple times a day? Also, how long would one reasonably be able to belive that the fish are ok and increase that CO2 time longer and longer until I am running it about as long as the lights are on?

Also, once I do get to the point of running the CO2 continuously throughout the day, is there a certain length of time I would be looking to have the CO2 being added (e.g. as long as the lights are on) and should I start adding CO2 just before the lights come on, or a short time after the lights turn on? Conversely, when should I have the CO2 turn off at the end of the day....a short time before the lights turn off, right when they turn off, or shortly after the lights are off?

I have also been told that it is advisable to run an airstone during the night to oxegenate the water for the benifit of the fish....is this true? My thinking has been that the plants themselves would help put O2 in the water at night...and that going from one extreme to another (e.g. high CO2 levels in the day versus high O2 levels at night) could cause problems as far as pH changes and what not.

I was also just informed by a couple people that keeping the peat moss which is in my filter right now would actually hurt me in the long run by creating the chance of improving the tank's ability to change pH quickly or severely....any thoughts on this?

I also am slightly leery about my water change schedule and methods that I have always used in my non-planted tanks. While I realize that I probably should allow my test kits to tell me when I should do a water change based upon nitrate levels among others, is this what I should be thinking or is there any other factors that I should consider? Also, in the past, I have always used my python hooked to my sink in order to drain water and vaccum the substrate, and then simply reversing that and use the python to add water directly to the tank, just after dosing enough dechlor conditioner to treat the whole tank. Will this still be an ok method or should I treat the water for chlorine/chloramines in a seperate vessel before adding it to my tank? (by the way, I am also able to adjust the water to closely match the tank temp with no problems for the most part and have done this for almost two years or more now)

For now, I will leave it at that...although I have a ton more questions, which will almost certainly keep growing, I need to soak up these major questions first so I can start heading further in the right direction. Thank you all in advance for any help you can give me!

Ahhh...one more thing...when I trim my plants, what is the best method of getting those clippings out of the tank? I know I can get the larger bits out easily, but the little ones seem tricky and eventually clog my filter intake. Along the same lines, how do I vaccum or remove any detrius from the tank if it is located amongst the other plants?


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I have never seen so much bad and misguided advice in one post.

So let's get started.

There was no reason to waste the perfectly good CO2 in the cylinder.

I don't understand why your 20 lb cylinder can't be filled all the way. Either the cylinder is good and will hold what it's supposed to or the cylinder is bad and can't be used at all.

To see if you have enough CO2 in the aquarium you can test the pH and kH and use a pH/kH/CO2 chart, easy to find on the web and there is on in my Guide. Or you can build/buy a drop checker.

You could have added 30 ppm of CO2 to your tank in a couple of hours without hurting the fish. pH changes caused by CO2 do not harm fish. I explain why at www.theplantedtankFAQ.com in the CO2 section.

Also by having fluctuating levels of CO2 in the tank you are much more likely to have algae problems. One of the main reasons we use pressurized CO2 is to keep constant levels of CO2 in the aquarium.

Many people run the CO2 during the lighting period. Or turn on the CO2 slightly before the lights come on and turn it off just before they go out. I personally run my CO2 24/7.

I have found no need to run an air stone at night in any of my aquariums. Again pH changes caused by CO2 do not harm fish.

BS on the peat moss in the filter. But having peat moss in the filter will make it impossible to use the pH/kH/CO2 chart in any meaningful way.

Do a 50% water change once a week. In a planted tank we actually ADD nitrates. You should not see a nitrate buildup in a planted tank. Your current method of water changes will work just fine.

Take a few minutes and read my Guide. And stop listening to whomever it was that gave you all that really bad advice.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> I have never seen so much bad and misguided advice in one post.


Ahhhhhh....keep in mind that I am NOT giving out advice, but rather trying to check what I have been told. I obviously have to seek out information and then try to verify that so I can determine if I should use it or not....just like you did at one time.



> There was no reason to waste the perfectly good CO2 in the cylinder


As I said, I got this tank free, from an acquaintance of mine, so not knowing if the tank was old, or if someone tried to put another type of gas in the tank, so it was nothing more than a peice of mind type thing for me to get it completely filled back up. The CO2 was less than 4 dollars so I feel like it wasnt a total waste and I am sure releasing it had no bad effect on anyone or anything. From what I understand, you cannot completely fill one of these tanks based upon some reasons that I am not sure of. I have read this in a few places and you are actually the first person to say anything other than that. However, I do know that a tank like this one can be filled more if it is cold or frozen, again for whatever reason. In any case, I dont need 20 pounds of CO2 right now and all is good.



> To see if you have enough CO2 in the aquarium you can test the pH and kH and use a pH/kH/CO2 chart, easy to find on the web and there is on in my Guide. Or you can build/buy a drop checker.


My question was really aimed at finding out if CO2 levels should be adjusted based upon the amount of plant life in a given tank. For example, if I had one plant in my tank, would I need the same amount of CO2 as if I had 100 plants in my tank? Are there plants that need more CO2 than others? If so, how do I find the best balance for my exact tank, my exact plants, and my exact situation. I understand that I am just starting out here, but I also understand the principles behind 'too much of a good thing' and wish to avoid that if possible.



> You could have added 30 ppm of CO2 to your tank in a couple of hours without hurting the fish. pH changes caused by CO2 do not harm fish.


Again, please take no offense to this, but I am not new to the hobby by any means and I can agree that most freshwater fish, if not all, can handle changes in pH...the trick would be that the pH needs to change slowly. I read some of your article and understand your point about how a rainstorm can change the pH in a lake, however you cannot tell me that adding one inch of rain to an entire lake would change the pH of the water as fast as I can change the pH in my 55 gallon aquarium. I also cannot see the difference between a pH change for one reason versus another reason being less harmful. I am certainly not trying to argue here, but rather trying to get some clarification since I know you understand things that I do not.

Still, acclimation practices have evolved and been used for quite some time now which focus in on more than getting the water in the bag to the same temp as the water in an aquarium. Included in those practices are pH differences between the LFS's water, which the fish are obviously used to and survived in for more than 5 minutes, and our tanks which we hope to do the same thing. That said, acclimation also must continue while the fish are in our own tanks and so this slow acclimation to CO2, or even just the change in pH makes perfect sense to me. Perhaps it does only take a couple of hours, which is good to know, and what I was after. I will do as you say so confidently and turn my CO2 on to run for 24 hours...and if my fish suffer, you will be the first to know... :mrgreen:



> Also by having fluctuating levels of CO2 in the tank you are much more likely to have algae problems. One of the main reasons we use pressurized CO2 is to keep constant levels of CO2 in the aquarium.


This is good to know, thanks. I have heard a lot about a few types of algae which I would want to avoid by any cost, but I did not know CO2 was going to play a part in that as well. I was only told that unequal amounts of minerals could lead to this. Black beard algae I believe is what I was told, or at least one of them.



> I personally run my CO2 24/7.


In a very recent article, in a very popular and widely read magazine, an obviously huge personality in the hobby states that using CO2 at night time is just a waste because without light, the plants would not use it anyways. This author also was the basis for my thinking of putting an airstone in the tank to run at night in order to help the fish. Obviously, in a tank with little to no surface aggitation, which is needed to hopefully prevent gas exchange and keep the CO2 dissolved in the water, oxygen can be depleted by the fish and is not really being restored. How does one go about keeping that balance of O2 and CO2 to benifit everything in an aquarium at the same time?



> In a planted tank we actually ADD nitrates. You should not see a nitrate buildup in a planted tank


Makes sense...and I have not seen any nitrates, nor ammonia or nitrites even though I basically uncycled this tank during my change over.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it fully. Like I said, seeeing as how this hobby is packed full of misnomers and misinformation, it is often hard to determine which is good, and which is bad information. In fact, even good information can be bad for some people and I am sure that there are people who almost totally disagree with you, and me, but keep aquariums with great success. I will read your entire guide tonight hopefully.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Ok, here is the skinny on CO2 tanks....you cannot completely fill one up and if you think you can and do so, you are setting yourself up for disaster. Simply put, much of the CO2 that goes into your tank....approximately 34% of it...becomes liquid under the pressure. This liquid will quickly return to a gaseous state with very few degrees of temperature change. HENCE, your bottle of CO2 is actually larger than the volume of CO2 it holds, or, as an example my CO2 bottle, does not hold the advertised 20 pounds. 

Sort of conversely, becasue the CO2 tank is not completely full due to wanting lower pressures even at higher temperatures so that the bottle does not burst, if you were to keep your CO2 bottle outside in cold weather, the pressure may reduce further and for example, hinder the ability for the CO2 to push a paintball out of a barrel on a paintball gun. Apparently this is a common problem in that hobby (paintball) and special tanks or additions to guns are needed to shoot paintballs in the cold. Still, this supports the information I was told on a CO2 tank not being totally full. 

So, to sum that up, there is a limit to the amount of pressure that can be gained from putting CO2 into a bottle and even though you can keep adding more and more CO2 as it gets colder and liquifies (liquid is more dense than gas, so more can fit into one area), if kept in a 70 degree room (like in a house), you would need to have 680 to 800 psi in the bottle to keep it liquid and not gas. Which, of course, goes back to the fact that gas is less dense than liquid and thus, unless it stays as a liquid, there is a real chance of the bottle bursting.

All of this information I gathered off of a couple CO2 suppliers' websites and from paintball oriented websites. It seems a bit complicated at first, but taking more easy to understand points from a variety of site, it starts to make sense.

Again, finding information is easy, verifying it is the real trick.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

For the CO2 use at night, I found a couple interesting articles on oxygenation of water within a lake or other body of water, which ultimately would apply to some extent in an aquarium. Certainly, if fish can become asphyxiated due to low O2 levels in a lake, an 'open system', then in a closed system such as an aquarium, the risks would be higher and the time to react to that would be less, right?



> In summary, the oxygen levels in water depend on the balance between the inputs from the air and plants, and the consumption by all forms of life. Inputs from the air depend on the turbulence of the air-water interface, and the oxygen deficiency of the water. Inputs from plants depend on photosynthetic activity which increases with temperature and sunlight; excess oxygen can be lost to the atmosphere. Oxygen consumption depends on the respiration of aquatic organisms, including plants, and the aerobic decomposition of organic material by bacteria; these rates also increase with temperature.
> 
> This balance needs to be clearly understood; a satisfactory oxygen level recorded during the day is no guarantee that the levels will be maintained during the night. Moderate levels recorded in calm eutrophic waters on a warm, sunny afternoon will almost always indicate that severe oxygen deficiencies will occur during the night. Also, lower than expected daytime pH values due to high levels of CO2 may indicate high levels of bacterial respiration which could lead to low night-time oxygen levels.


 From: http://www.fao.org/docrep/009/t1623e/T1623E03.htm



> Aquarium Plants need CO2 to live, without it they cannot assimilate the nutrients they need. In the water CO2 is mainly derived from the bacteria breaking down organic material, and CO2 released by fish through respiration. This is normally not sufficient for plant growth. A CO2 system will compensate for any shortfalls by injecting the necessary CO2into the water.
> You will need to test the CO2 levels to insure the safety of you fish. Levels in excess of approximately 40 mg. per liter of water can be harmful to fish.
> Surface turbulence can increase oxygen content and deplete excess CO2 at night. No surface turbulence during the day can preserve CO2 levels


 From: http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/plant_care.html

From the same website:


> Respiration is the opposite of photosynthesis. When the lights are out, the photosynthesis process ceases but the respiration continues. The aquarium plant will use oxygen to break down food substances, which is released as energy in the form of heat. Carbon dioxide is produced and expelled as a result of this process.
> So, when the lights are on the plants absorb carbon dioxide and expel oxygen. When the lights are out the aquarium plants absorb oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.


So, I am not sure what to believe here....you say Co2 all the way, all of the day, and then others would say that O2 is depleted even more at night and couple that with little surface aggitation and a Co2 system running all night and all day, wouldnt that cause problems for fish?

Ultimately, I want to do things right, and get this tank set up for ease of care because as the weather gets warmer, my free time gets shorter. The pressurized Co2 is going to help a lot with that and like all of my other tanks, everything is on timers short of having to feed the fish, which my wife or kids usually do. Right now, I can adapt to most anything I need and already have the equipment. I just need to know what to run, when to run it, and how to protect my investment here.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Mad Dog said:


> Ok, here is the skinny on CO2 tanks....you cannot completely fill one up and if you think you can and do so, you are setting yourself up for disaster. Simply put, much of the CO2 that goes into your tank....approximately 34% of it...becomes liquid under the pressure. This liquid will quickly return to a gaseous state with very few degrees of temperature change. HENCE, your bottle of CO2 is actually larger than the volume of CO2 it holds, or, as an example my CO2 bottle, does not hold the advertised 20 pounds.
> 
> Sort of conversely, becasue the CO2 tank is not completely full due to wanting lower pressures even at higher temperatures so that the bottle does not burst, if you were to keep your CO2 bottle outside in cold weather, the pressure may reduce further and for example, hinder the ability for the CO2 to push a paintball out of a barrel on a paintball gun. Apparently this is a common problem in that hobby (paintball) and special tanks or additions to guns are needed to shoot paintballs in the cold. Still, this supports the information I was told on a CO2 tank not being totally full.
> 
> ...


The CO2 bottle has liquid as gaseous CO2. The nominal pressure in the tank at room temperature is between 700 and 900 psi. When all the liquid CO2 is gone, then the pressure in the tank will slowly drop until the tank is empty.

To properly fill a tank to its rated capacity, add a small amount of CO2 to the tank. Open the valve to release all the gas. This will cool the tank and allow it to accept a full charge.


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## pepperonihead (Nov 25, 2004)

*Mad Dog, I am going to try really hard not to offend*

But this hobby is so much simpler than you are trying to make it. You are over thinking this thing. Don't worry. Your fish and your plants will let you know if your putting too much or too little Co2 in your tank. If your not putting enough Co2 in your tank your plants will not grow well. Just start out with the one bubble per second. That should work fine. I have never once measured the amount of Co2 in my tank. But I know I have the right amount because the plants and the fish tell me so. 
When I first started using Co2 my plants went nuts! So will yours. I always know when I am putting too much in because my fish go to the top of the tank and gasp for air. I lower the Co2 and give some agitation to the surface for a couple hours and they get back to normal quickly. Then I just leave the Co2 on at the lower rate. With trial and error I have come to a happy medium where the plants and fish are both healthy. When I want to acclimate my new fish I drip aclimate them for about four hours and they go in fine. It's is so much easier then people make it out to be. I have two healthy beautiful tanks and it has been a pleasurable experiance, as it is meant to be. If I over thought every little detail of every little thing, it would have driven me crazy, and I would have been out of this hobby a long time ago. 
I read a lot because it interests me, but I don't take the advise of every thing I read. There is so much information out there, much of it contradictory, that I just rely on my own trial and error experience. I have never had a catastrophe. Sure, I have had green water, once, and Cyanobacteria, once, but my tanks are fine, with very little algea, clear water, crazy amounts of plant life, and healthy fish. 
So, enjoy the hobby!


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

pepperonihead,

Thanks for your input here! I understand your points and I can see how my posts sound like I am trying to micromanage everything in this tank. My concern is based upon two main things....first, I have heard too many horror stories of people finding it almost impossible to keep some fish, many of which are in my tank right now. Being someone who first strives to keep my fish alive, regardless of cost or how easy they are to replace, I would like to avoid the silly mistakes I am almost sure to make if I did not have a resource like this forum to bounce my ideas and thoughts on. Secondly, not only am I being told one thing and then finding out that it is the 'worst advice someone has ever read' is certainly disheartening. To top both of those off, my experience with saltwater tanks has led me to be pretty strict with water quality and parameters in even my freshwater tanks. I have also lost a few fish here in the past two days, all of which were sudden and unexplained by any visual clues. They were mostly neons or cardinal tetras, but also my swordtail and one otto cat died. The swordtail was interesting though...I looked at it, went to another room and about 20 mintues later, it was dead. This is why I would like to figure things out to avoid this later on, but I also realize that all my fish are new to the tank and so I could be having losses due to totally unrelated things that stem from a time before I even thought about buying them.

Like I said, I trust you guys since you obviously stand to gain nothing from helping me out and have also kept this sort of tank for much longer than I have. So, I chose the middle ground for now and have my Co2 system timed to run almost the entire time the lights are on, and remain off at night time...without the use of an airstone at any time. Hopefully this will work out. I know that once I get the ball rolling in the right direction, this tank will become easier and easier. I already can see the benifits of using Co2 though...I have a couple myrio-red (not sure about that name exactly, but that is what Drs. F&S labels it as) which have already grown to the top of the tank from about only 4 or 6 inches tall. I actually thinned out some plants today and gave them to my brother since eventually they plants would just compete for light and some would end up dying.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

Mad Dog,

Some people run their CO2 continuously with no problems others, like myself, run it only when the lights are on. I only run mine when the lights are on since I can't see that it's needed if the plants don't use it at night but I'm far from being an expert. Picking up a drop checker and using a reference solution for your kH will make it easy to determine your CO2 level.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I was stating that you had received bad advice. Not that you were giving it out.

There is this thing called "Truth in Advertising". A 20 lb CO2 cylinder MUST hold 20 LBS of CO2 to be called a 20 lb cylinder. If it can only hold 16 lbs then it's a 16 lb cylinder and must be called that.

I have a 20 lb and two 5 lb cylinders. And they hold 20 lbs and 5 lbs each when filled. CO2 cylinders are not "filled up". They should be filled with the correct amount of liquid CO2. Note they are sold on a weight basis and not a volume basis. A 20 lb cylinder will hold 20 lbs. I can't make it any simpler than that. Breakfast cereal is sold on a weight basis. That's why the box has empty space. Bottled water is sold on a volume basis.

So either you have a 15 lb cylinder which is slightly overfilled or someone lied to you.

The only other gas that can be put in a CO2 cylinder is Argon. They are the only two gases which share the CGA 320 valve.

CO2 according to some political persuasions is a dangerous greenhouse gas. Many of these people would execute you on the spot for placing such a dangerous substance into the atmosphere.

If you have one plant in an aquarium you don't have a planted aquarium. If you only have one plant there is no need to add more lighting or nutrients or CO2. This forum is a discussion about PLANTED aquariums. And in planted aquariums 30 ppm of CO2 represents the current thinking about the correct level.

Did you take the time to read this:



> Normally in the wild pH changes are caused by changes in the kH (carbonate hardness) and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) in the water. These changes can cause osmotic shock to the fish if they are large enough. Most all fish can handle a bigger pH change due to hardness than many people think. In many places where our fish come from a rainstorm can cause a huge change in pH. When CO2 lowers the pH it doesn't affect the kH or TDS. So the osmotic balance is not upset.


This can be found at www.theplantedtankFAQ.com in the CO2 section. It's a more in depth explanation about why pH changes caused by CO2 doesn't harm fish. And if you think about it you will see it's correct. If you have a CO2 system that is shut off at night and you run an air stone you will drive the CO2 out of the water and raise the pH. Then in the morning when the CO2 starts back up you will start to lower the pH. How quickly this happens depends on many factors. But if it takes too long then you can have algae problems. Ideally one would want 30 ppm of CO2 present during the entire lighting period.

When you are acclimating fish you are actually equalizing the TDS between the two waters to prevent osmotic shock. I'm lucky. Since my LFS and I use the same source water I can do a 50% water change and dump the fish directly into the tank. The kH and gH are all going to be so close together that there is no problem. All I do is float the bag for about 15 minutes to get the temperatures the same and dump. And I can and have and will continue to dump fish into a tank where the pH (due to CO2) is a FULL POINT lower than they water they are in. And it causes no problems since the TDS is the same as the water they came from. When you are using CO2 to lower pH you need to remove pH from your thinking and concentrate on kH, gH and TDS.

I run my CO2 24/7 with no air stone at night. Why? Well I'm so busy building CO2 systems for other people I have not found the time to take apart my CO2 systems and add a solenoid. Having a solenoid on my systems will save me gas. That's it. In a healthy planted tank the plants will create huge amounts of Oxygen. Also IMHO having NO surface agitation is no desirable. It leads to a buildup of a protein film that further inhibits gas exchange at the surface. So I simply angle part of my spray bar to cause some surface agitation. CO2 is cheap. I could care less if this causes me to lose a few percent of my total CO2 usage.

I know that the internet is full of bad, misguided, incorrect, and confusing advice. That's the reason that I wrote my Guide. It's correct, it's straight forward and I hope it's not confusing.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> CO2 according to some political persuasions is a dangerous greenhouse gas. Many of these people would execute you on the spot for placing such a dangerous substance into the atmosphere.


It is those people who I wish would follow their own advice and quit breathing then! lol



> There is this thing called "Truth in Advertising". A 20 lb CO2 cylinder MUST hold 20 LBS of CO2 to be called a 20 lb cylinder


Ok, I guess my liquor store guy is full of it then...it doesnt really matter in the long run since there is more than I need to last me for months. Although I have to say that truth in advertising is about as real as my fairy godmother. I can see how it may apply more so to this CO2 bottle though. I will go some place else when I fill the tank up again and see if they tell me something different.



> This forum is a discussion about PLANTED aquariums


Right, and I understand. My analogy there was a bit extreme, but I read quite a bit about one person having a 'lightly planted' or 'highly planted' aquariums and that was more along the lines of what I was trying to distinguish between. I got it now though...30 ppm Co2 is good.



> This can be found at www.theplantedtankFAQ.com in the CO2 section. It's a more in depth explanation about why pH changes caused by CO2 doesn't harm fish. And if you think about it you will see it's correct


Yea, I read that after I posted my comments about it....and it makes sense. I didnt edit my comments after reading it because I didnt want to appear as if I was just trying to blow smoke about how smart I think I am.



> When you are acclimating fish you are actually equalizing the TDS between the two waters to prevent osmotic shock. I'm lucky. Since my LFS and I use the same source water I can do a 50% water change and dump the fish directly into the tank


For the most part, I am in the same situation...the LFS at which I buy my livestock is within 15 minutes of my house...both of us on the same water. I still acclimate slowly though. Again, I probably over think this freshwater thing becasue of my saltwater tanks in which there is more to consider than the water source.

Still, I wouldnt just dump fish in a tank...TDS, Gh, and Kh can differ from one tank to another in the same house...but agree that they would be close.



> I run my CO2 24/7 with no air stone at night. Why? Well I'm so busy building CO2 systems for other people I have not found the time to take apart my CO2 systems and add a solenoid.


No offense, but that would be pretty important information for when you say things like "I run my CO2 24/7". I can see why you do that now, but before, you make me wonder why I spent 80 bucks for a regulator with a solenoid on it for apparently no reason. Things like that will make you seem less credible since there is a ton of information out there about why to not run CO2 at night time. Know what I mean?

I am using a spray bar too....and it causes surface aggitation, although it is much less than it could be. From what you just told me, I think it is probably doing just about what you explain happens in your tank.

Thanks for the advice and letting me put that all to the test!


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Dead neon, cardinal, oto, and swordfish = BAD WATER quality! Never introduce neons/cards into a new tank, even if the tank is full of plants. These fish will normal thrive in a mature aquarium. The tank should smell fishy, have some algae, and be populated with a few fish for at least 3 months. To avoid this delay, one can re-use the substrate, filter, and plants from another mature tank. 

Per another post, the fish will show stress if there is too much CO2. Common sense would dictate an initial dosage of one 3 mm bubble per second. If there is no improvement in plant growth after two weeks, then bump up to two bubbles per second. Another easy method to check CO2 dosage is to measure the pH of tap water vs tank water. The pH vs KH chart will provide a good estimate of CO2 dosage. Start out at 15 pmm and gradually build up to about 30 pmm over one month if there is inadequate growth. 20 pmm works well for my tank. 

I've moved cardinals from 7.3 pH to 8.2 pH in seconds without any ill effect. The drop in pH from daytime to nightime occurs over many hours. We should see a drop of about 0.4 point max with low KH water. 

The CO2 level in the tank must be very high to kill fish since the concentration of dissolved oxygen should not change with CO2 injection. Recheck the pH of tank water vs tap water. Also check the level of nitrate in the tank. If there is a CO2 overdose, then it will show up as a large drop in pH due to carbonic acid in the tank. A very high level of nitrate (>50 pmm) can also kill fish. I couldn't think of another common water quality problem that could take out a swordtail.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> Dead neon, cardinal, oto, and swordfish = BAD WATER quality! Never introduce neons/cards into a new tank, even if the tank is full of plants.


Trust me man....I know what I am doing and there is no bad water quality leading to these fishes' deaths. This is not a completely new tank and I promise you that I am fully aware of how to keep fish alive, healthy, and thriving. I know that you dont know me from Adam, but I know I you have read my other posts.



> The CO2 level in the tank must be very high to kill fish since the concentration of dissolved oxygen should not change with CO2 injection.


I think it would, but in any case, without putting dissolved oxygen back into a tank rapid enough, the oxygen is lost because the fish use it.... Water is not a bottomless pit...it can only hold so much dissolved compounds...including salt.



> Recheck the pH of tank water vs tap water


I dropped the pH of the water in my tank on purpose...I know it is not the same as my tap water.



> A very high level of nitrate (>50 pmm) can also kill fish. I couldn't think of another common water quality problem that could take out a swordtail.


Again, I understand that. There is not 50 ppm of nitrate in my tank, although that wouldnt kill a fish anyways. It certainly wouldnt kill one fish and leave the others either. Like I said, could be that this fish just couldnt handle the transfer to my house, or was already stressed/weakened by something the LFS was doing wrong. It lasted less than 24 hours so it is not like there was a huge nitrate build up occuring.

Besides, Mr. Grigg points this out:


> In a planted tank we actually ADD nitrates. You should not see a nitrate buildup in a planted tank.


Which of you are right then?

Like I said, I dont think the water quality had anything to do with it....and until last night and today, I thought it might have been pH changes over night or something like that. None of these fish have any signs of illness or disease...in fact, they almost look alive still because they have been getting propped up by the plants (sorry for that morbid description). However, so far no other fish have been lost in the more recent past (one or two days) and everything appears totally hunky-dory. The pH is holding steady with the Co2 on...it is at 6.8 or 7.0 depending on the level of color blindness I have at a given time.

I am just tryign to get to the bottom of this sort of tank, no pun intended. I feel that the more I can learn, the better off I will be...hence all of the questions. Again, I have kept almost every other sort of aquarium you can think of with success....the only difference here is that I am just starting out with plants and finding knowledgable people is hard to find. Other than that, I am good.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

All current literature on planted tanks suggests a nitrate level of between 10-20 ppm. And most of us have to add nitrates a couple of times a week to maintain those levels.



> Dead neon, cardinal, oto, and swordfish = BAD WATER quality! Never introduce neons/cards into a new tank, even if the tank is full of plants. These fish will normal thrive in a mature aquarium. The tank should smell fishy, have some algae, and be populated with a few fish for at least 3 months. To avoid this delay, one can re-use the substrate, filter, and plants from another mature tank.


I can't disagree more here. No tank should ever smell fishy. Live fish have very little smell (certain salmon withstanding). A well balanced planted aquarium will have little to no algae. I have added Cardinals to a brand new tank several times. In some tanks I have used Bio-Spira in conjunction with the cycling method I have in my Guide and in others I have just used the cycling method. Never lost a single Cardinal.

Osmotic shock is the #1 killer of newly introduced fish. That and high nitrate levels.

One of these days I will put solenoids on my CO2 systems. Only to save gas. For no other reason. My 29 gallon tank has been running for over five years without one with no problem. I have to say though it's not real high on my priority list. The regulator that feeds the 29 and 55 gallon aquariums is the very first regulator I built. And needless to say it's not up to my current design specs. But I'm following "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule here.

As long as you have some gas exchange on the surface there is no harm running CO2 24/7. If you have no gas exchange and the tank is out of balance and the plants are not producing O2 then there is a problem running CO2 at any time.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks for that clarification. Honestly, these few fish could have died for a number of reasons...however I dont think that shock and certainly not water quality had much to do with them. Because I had heard neons and cardinals are sometimes hard to keep (which I posted another thread on in another section of this site), I acclimated them much like I would any saltwater livestock. Point being that they are not still dying off so its not that big of a deal anymore. None of my tanks have ever smelled fishy....you would not be able to spend any time in my living room if that was the case. The only 'smell test' I have ever heard of was for live rock, and a fishy smell would be a bad indicator.

I understand better your points about running CO2 24/7. I guess that since I have a solenoid, I would be ok to have it keep turning off at night time then, correct? I took out the airstone and like you point out, your spray bar helps with O2 and I have the same deal going on in my tank

I went to an auction today and picked up two gold angels and two apistos (not sure which yet, just walked in the door...they are both males and very spectacular IMHO) along with some java fern. I am acclimating them now, will get the plants in, and post some pictures so you can see what I have been up to first hand. Sound good?


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## pepperonihead (Nov 25, 2004)

*Wow, Sorry about those losses*

I had no idea. Any way, sounds to me like you will be fine. I'm am from the KISS school (keep it simple stupid). 
Can't wait to see some pictures of all your tanks! 
By the way, I have my Co2 on a timer and it goes off when the lights go off. The only reason why I really do this is becuase the gas place is pretty far from my house and I want to save as much gas as I can so I don't have to go up there all the time. My spray bar, like Rexs' agitates the surface only a little and it seems to work fine.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

I think that I am not only on the right track now, but also understand why. I am doing the same thing as you and Mr. Grigg now basically...I have Co2 on for the duration of the time my lights are on and am using a spray bar to just slightly aggitate the water surface.

I have to admit that I haven't been really organized with these albums here, but you can see pictures of my tanks, fish, inverts, and plants (past and present) here: http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l162/tommygunnz76/ I have been uploading pictures quite a bit over the past few months, so you would have to look a little bit for full shots of my tanks, but they are all in there. Everything is sorted by tank type though (e.g. freshwater, saltwater, planted tank) so that should help a little bit. I also have some videos on there, but my camera skills are less than desireable to say the least.

Anyways, I did some recent tests here...about 20 minutes ago...and I am not sure things are all good in my tank. Mainly I think my Kh is way too low, but I did take that peat moss out of the filter like Mr. Grigg advised with the hopes that it will go back up closer to what my tap water is. I downloaded a Co2 and fert calculator and when I input in my Kh (which was 1), my Gh (which was 12) and my pH (which is 7.0), I get a very low Co2 level of 2 ppm. I did this shortly after the Co2 went off for the night though...and I am assuming that I need to do it when it is on, correct? Should I test in the middle of the day to get the best idea of my Co2 levels? And should I try to raise my Kh or just hope that without peat moss, it will raise on its own and stop messing with the tank?

I have to say that my plants look amazing right now though. In fact, I couldnt really be happier about this tank as far as how it looks at this moment. If I had to give myself any advice, I would just say that if it isn't broken, dont fix it...right? Or should I still be tweaking things in order to avoid issues like BBA?


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

With the peat affecting your pH and kH it's really hard to get a decent CO2 reading based on the chart. The chart assumes that the only thing used to lower the pH is CO2 and the only buffers are bicarbonates. Couple that with the inherent inaccuracy of trying to read consumer level test kits and it's almost impossible to get a decent handle on CO2 levels.

You should test for CO2 at least an hour after it has come on. But testing so soon after it has gone off should show more than 2 ppm. That reading is more consistent with a tank with NO CO2 injection.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Ok, I see your point. I remember reading somewhere which you said 2 ppm would be like a tank without a co2 system which worried me. I took out the peat moss and will do a water change if you think that would help to 'undo' the effects of the peat so I can get a better understanding of how much Co2 I need or am currrently using.


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## southpark (Oct 9, 2006)

important items that have been pointed out in a round about way is the KH hardness of your water being thrown off by the peat (effectively making it impossible to measure your co2 levels using the ph/kh chart). 

items i would address before adding/readding co2 to your tank.

1. determine the natural KH/PH of your local tap water

2. determine your target ppm co2 level (this is a personally subjective item, but general recommendations run 20-30ppm for planted tanks)

3. determine your ph swing according to the chart (and this will affect your ph sensitive fish and how comfortable you are with ph changes)

4. see how comfortable you are with your natural kh buffer from step 1. if this kh buffer level is too low, consider a different source of aquarium water.. or consider adding buffering agents (substrate, not the additive drops) although any of these will throw off your kh/ph chart measurements

5. and this step is personal preference really, but in my opinion is akin to acclimating your LFS purchases to your personal tank water. You should start your co2 at a low rate (0.5 bps or less) and slowly ramp it up to your target bubble rate over a few hours, taking measurements of your kh/ph as you go to determine when you have hit your "target" ppm. once your have achieved your target PPM, LEAVE YOUR CO2 ON. what seems to be the "worst" side of effect of adding co2 to a tank ,is the ph swing that occurs when the co2 is initially turned on/off. you want to get your co2, and your ph stable, and leave it at that level to avoid stressing your fish with constant ph changes, this applies to the night cycle as well.

Below is opinion/conjecture based upon personal experience/reading:

i believe your 4 hour cycle of co2 is what may have killed your fish, and your 4 1-hour cycles are even worse, your ph may swing in as little as an hour once the co2 has been turned on/off because co2 dissipates very quickly out of your aquarium water, also surface turbulance has a large effect on your co2 retention rate. also if you dig a little deeper you'll find that co2 dissolved levels are independant of O2 dissolved levels in water. your water can be both highly oxygenated and highly co2 injected at the same time. one does not displace the other, this isn't a mineral we're talking about (salt vs sugar), however, an excessively high co2 level can cause problems at the fish physiological layer by inhibiting the oxygen affinity of hemoglobin (effectively suffocating your fish).

i would recommend against using a solenoid and a day/night cycle. but if you do, you may wish to seperate your co2 and light timers so your co2 turns on a little earlier so that sufficient co2 is available when your light turns on.

some people believe co2 during the night has the potential of crashing your ph, if your water is sufficiently buffered this is mostly untrue, as co2 doesn't "build up" overnight, it dissipates naturally into the air (unless you have a completely enclosed top with the potential of co2 building up under your tank cover and suffocating your fish from lack of surface gas exchange). i personally run co2 into 2 open top tanks in an always-on configuration. One tank has flourite as a substrate, the other is seachem onyx, both tanks have a good kh buffer and what i would considering medium-heavy planted growth. One is a guppy breeding tank w/ clean-up crew inhabitants, and the other is a cherry shrimp tank (300+ shrimp) and the only casualties i've had over the last year since adding co2 is the occasional guppy that thinks he/she can fly.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Ok....I got the peat out of my filter, so it is not affecting the tank at all. I also did a small water change (approx 15 of the probable 45 or 50 gallons of water) and things are not changing. The pH is the same as before and holding well (7.0) but my Kh is still at 1 but my tap water Kh is 4...and has always been there without fail (city tap water, so it is open to some changes without me knowing). I am assuming that it is going to be a slow change, which is good anyways, correct? 

I am already up to running Co2 continuously...started to 'ramp up' but then just jumped into it. Not casualties since doing so, which is possibly luck, otherwise Mr. Grigg is right...which I am getting convinced of here. I set my alarm last night for 2:30 am and woke up to check the pH since the Co2 was off for about 6 hours or more at that time. It was holding at 7.0. Before this whole planted tank idea sprouted (no pun intended), I was a very firm believer in the ideology that as long as pH remains stable and mostly constant, all is good assuming one acclimates livestock correctly. I am moving back to that thinking even in a planted tank. Honestly, I dont want to try it to find out firsthand, but I think it would take me a lot to change the pH in this tank really quickly. I do see your points about using the four, one hour periods of Co2 though and have stopped doing that. 

I also agree with you on buffering Kh...or pH...as far as using a more permanant method. I could add crushed coral to my filter...but not sure if that would just buffer Kh or my pH as well. Going along with what Mr. Grigg pointed out, shocking fish is going to occur with changes in pH, Kh, and TDS together, so what type of substrate or method would be best?


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

If you don't want the pH to go down then get rid of the CO2 system. CO2 lowers pH. It happens in every CO2 injected tank. Or if you want a constant pH get a pH monitor. That will hold the tank at the set point.

You will need to do 200% water changes to actually get enough of the acids from the peat to do any good. So you will need to do 4 50% water changes.

You could safely do these water changes in a 24 hour period.

If you feel you need to raise the kH then use baking soda. But be advised that raising kH also raises pH.

Crushed coral works. But it's hard to gauge how much it will affect the water chemistry. It will raise the pH, kH and gH. I once took a 55 gallon tank from less than one degree of kH and gH to over 17° of each in less than a week by merely placing crushed coral in the filter.

Baking soda is cheap, controllable and it works.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Gotcha! I will do water changes every night in the range of 50% or so. Dont have time really to do them all at once or in one day. I shouldn't have used that peat like I was told. Got that advice from an LFS employee, which....yea, I know better.

How long lasting is the baking soda? 

I got tons of crushed coral, but know exactly what you mean...hard to judge what amount would be just right. Probably wouldnt be the same amount two seperate times even.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Baking soda lasts till the next water change. Then you need to add enough to bring the amount of water you changed up to the level you desire.


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