# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Trying eau natural (pun intended), need chemistry advice.



## Mike Fishkeeper (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks for the inspiration, Dianna.

My first soil attempt is not going very well, so far.
46 bow with 1" soil, then 1/4" of fine playsand, followed by 1 1/2" of gravel.

The bonsai soil that I used is very rich (too rich?), and I guess (sand) that I got caught up in the bit about roots producing a local biosphere.
I suppose the watchword for anerobic conditions is "moderation"

At 10 weeks, there's massive Hydrogen Sulphate killing the roots. Tried injecting iron into the soil (H. Sulphate + Fe = fools gold), but there was probably already plenty of iron from the soil, so too much is giving me slimey hair algae.

Should I try mixing the playsand down into the soil, or just start over?


By contrast, I have a 54 with 1 1/2" playsand only. I leave the mulm, and the plants grow great. The floating Sprite, Salvania, and Hydrocotle have to be thinned weekly, or else the rooted plants grow weakly.(not sic)
After a couple of months with moderate hair algae, it has waned, and I am considering upping the light from it's current 60w of CF.
I was adding a bit of Iron and Pottasium Sulphate, but I think the mulm is taking over the job.

Have you ever tried a middle ground with say, half and inch of soil, and moderate light, adding a little more of each a season later? (to avoid an over-rich startup)

Might I have recomendations for raising hardness and calcium, without raising pH? Snails are not happy in our (beautiful Vancouver) soft water, and I think the plants could use a little more GH. I saw reference to "R/O right". Results with this? Alternates?

Thank You Diana and any others who wish to reply.
Mike


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## Mike Fishkeeper (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks for the inspiration, Dianna.

My first soil attempt is not going very well, so far.
46 bow with 1" soil, then 1/4" of fine playsand, followed by 1 1/2" of gravel.

The bonsai soil that I used is very rich (too rich?), and I guess (sand) that I got caught up in the bit about roots producing a local biosphere.
I suppose the watchword for anerobic conditions is "moderation"

At 10 weeks, there's massive Hydrogen Sulphate killing the roots. Tried injecting iron into the soil (H. Sulphate + Fe = fools gold), but there was probably already plenty of iron from the soil, so too much is giving me slimey hair algae.

Should I try mixing the playsand down into the soil, or just start over?


By contrast, I have a 54 with 1 1/2" playsand only. I leave the mulm, and the plants grow great. The floating Sprite, Salvania, and Hydrocotle have to be thinned weekly, or else the rooted plants grow weakly.(not sic)
After a couple of months with moderate hair algae, it has waned, and I am considering upping the light from it's current 60w of CF.
I was adding a bit of Iron and Pottasium Sulphate, but I think the mulm is taking over the job.

Have you ever tried a middle ground with say, half and inch of soil, and moderate light, adding a little more of each a season later? (to avoid an over-rich startup)

Might I have recomendations for raising hardness and calcium, without raising pH? Snails are not happy in our (beautiful Vancouver) soft water, and I think the plants could use a little more GH. I saw reference to "R/O right". Results with this? Alternates?

Thank You Diana and any others who wish to reply.
Mike


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dear Mike,

Sorry to hear that your first episode with soil is not going well. I have no idea what's in bonsai soil. 

First RULE: use soil that you would want to grow houseplants in. That means potting soil or garden soil; NOT kitty litter, Bonsai soil, peat moss, etc

If you decide to tear down the tank, I've described how I would set up a tank in the El Natural/Low-Tech Substrate Advice" folder (March 1 letter). I think if you use one inch of potting soil you'll not have the trouble you're describing. Try a little less if you like. A little soil goes a long way!

Second RULE: avoid covering soil with sand. It sort of "seals" the substrate making it more anaerobic than if you just had a gravel layer. I've had bad results every time I've covered soil with sand.

Third RULE: I would never add iron to any soil substrate. You've seen what happens in your own tank. See the "El Natural/Substrate Iron" folder for further explanation. 

Fourth RULE: Do not add sulfates to your tank. If you must add potassium (K), add it as KCL or KNO3, not K2SO4. Sulfates diffuse into potting soil substrates and get converted to hydrogen sulfide. 

Hydrogen sulfide is produced in environments with a lot of organic matter and lot of sulfates (hardwater, marine water). Be wary; lots of inorganic fertilizers are made up of ammonium sulfate or potassium sulfate. These fertilizers may work great for your lawn or other aerobic environments, but not in submerged potting soil.

You're seen that fishfood can do the job once your tank accumulated some mulm. You're right; you don't need that much soil.

Diana Walstad


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## Mike Fishkeeper (Mar 1, 2004)

Thank you for your comments, Diana.

I think it is gradually perculating through the substrate of my mind to avoid too much iron, sulfate, and anaerobic conditions.

Two of my questions, however, remain:

Should I try mixing the playsand down into the soil (to relieve the anaerobic condition), or just start over?

Might I have recomendations for raising hardness and calcium, without raising pH? Snails are not happy in our (beautiful Vancouver) soft water, and I think the plants could use a little more GH. I saw reference to "R/O right". Results with this? Alternates?

Thank You Diana and any others who wish to reply.
Mike


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Mike,

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try mixing the soil with the sand.

I think you'll have trouble finding chemicals (without the bicarbonate) that will raise GH without raising pH. Lab people could supply you with CaCl2, and you could use small amount of MgSO4. I think that you can buy KCl as a salt substitute sold in grocery stores. However, it gets a little complicated and the "R.O. Right" might have the Ca, Mg, and K that you need.

You also could use either oyster grit (farm supply stores) or pelleted dolomite lime (garden supply stores). You can put these in a mesh bag made from tied-off panty hose and put the bag in your filter. These CA and Mg bicarbonate sources will gradually increase water hardness. They may also raise the pH, but I don't see that as a problem. Many aquarium plants can use bicarbonates. Also, bacterial processes may bring this pH down if your tank, for instance, has a fair number of fish. My tanks usually have a neutral or alkaline pH. However, with a heavy fish load, my tanks can become very acidic.

Diana Walstad


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## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

You can find CaCl in the hardware store as ice melter (it's an alternative to salt). I assume you'll have to problem finding it where you live! I haven't used it myself but have heard of its use in aquariums. Just be sure to check the label to make sure that it is 100% CaCl.

-Laura


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## Mike Fishkeeper (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks Diana and Laura, I'll try those ideas.

I've always used a little oyster shell, but am finding the pH already too high from plants.

I guess I need more fish.


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## Planted Engineer (Jan 15, 2004)

Diane,

Could you please be specific as to the disadvantages (and possible advantages) of adding the Fe and Sulfate ingredients mentioned above to the substrate? (I have JBL "soil" covered with a Quartz layer and I consider adding tablets close to the roots of some plants)



> quote:
> 
> Third RULE: I would never add iron to any soil substrate. You've seen what happens in your own tank. See the "El Natural/Substrate Iron" folder for further explanation.


I would like, if it makes sense more details on adding iron to the substrate in the following forms
1) Chelated Ferric Fe (EDTA etc)
2) Ferrous Sulfate
3) Ferrous Gluconate



> quote:
> 
> Fourth RULE: Do not add sulfates to your tank. If you must add potassium (K), add it as KCL or KNO3, not K2SO4. Sulfates diffuse into potting soil substrates and get converted to hydrogen sulfide.


Again here -

If I add ammonium sulfate to the substrate then fish are not supposed to be exposed to the toxic stuff while plants readily consume the ammonium - no? What could be the side effects of that? Could this increase nitrification, eat KH and what could go wrong because of that.

And finally, what's wrong with hydrogen sulfate.

I am sorry for the lengthy question Diane, probably this is what planted aquarium ecology experts have to learn to live with...









PE.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Planted Engineer:
> And finally, what's wrong with hydrogen sulfate.


Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) is the rotten egg-smelling gas found in severely anaerobic substrates. In scientific studies, H2S was found to be more toxic than ammonia gas. Certain species of bacteria convert sulfates to hydrogen sulfide under following circumstances:


lots of organic matter (e.g., potting soil)
lots of sulfates (e.g., fertilizers containing lots of sulfates)

What I'd like to know is why you think that you must add fertilizers to your aquarium?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

in my experience, adding fertilizers is a big mistake yo, 

the soil has all the nutrients and how!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Figuratively speaking I've bitten my tongue enough times. I'm going to butt in.



> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Planted Engineer:
> Diane,
> ...


I think that if you read Ms. Walstad's book that you could answer this question yourself.



> quote:
> 
> I would like, if it makes sense more details on adding iron to the substrate in the following forms...


If you are using a soil substrate then there are no relative advantages or disadvantages to the different sources of iron dosed to the substrate. They're all bad. They are unnecessary and potentially detrimental. For a "natural" tank (the subject of this forum, after all) they are also the wrong solution to the problem.

If your substrate contains any kind of soil-like material then it contains a large amount of iron in potentially available forms. The problem for the aquarium keeper is to make that potentially available iron actually available to plants. Making iron available generally requires organic material in the substrate -- something that you should get automatically if you use real soil.

If you add additional iron in any available form to a soil substrate then you risk iron overdose. In some cases that can lead to algae problems and in extreme cases it can poison your plants.

The story might be different if you have a clean, inert substrate without available iron. That would be a topic for a different forum.



> quote:
> 
> If I add ammonium sulfate to the substrate then fish are not supposed to be exposed to the toxic stuff while plants readily consume the ammonium - no?


Ideally, sure. Problems arise if you can't keep the ammonium in the substrate long enough to be consumed. Many of us who have dosed with Jobe's spikes (an ammonium source) have run into problems.

Nitrification of ammonia is a very oxygen-demanding process. It won't work very quickly in the substrate -- possibly not at all. What's more, the plants will only use just so much ammonia before they stop. At that point there is a good chance that any ammonia left over will just diffuse into the water.



> quote:
> 
> What could be the side effects of that?


Aside from toxicity? Tom Barr tested enough to satisfy himself that adding ammonia to a tank triggers algae blooms. I've seen enough to believe that ammonia is a factor in some algae blooms.

On the other hand, your Phoenix tap water probably has plenty of sulfate. I doubt that you will make any problems worse by adding more.

Roger Miller


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## Planted Engineer (Jan 15, 2004)

Hi,

First would like to thank you for the answer.

I own a 'high-end' tank so maybe I shouldn't have raised these questions in this forum and I apologize if this is the case.

It's just that Diane warned about some commercial fertilizers that include ammonium sulfate



> quote:
> 
> Be wary; lots of inorganic fertilizers are made up of ammonium sulfate or potassium sulfate. These fertilizers may work great for your lawn or other aerobic environments, but not in submerged potting soil.


So I thought I could learn more even though I am sure Diane doesn't use those products.

I think I made a mistake in my setup - there's heating cables, and then soil, and then laterite, and then soil - ~ 1" and on top of this 3.5" of number 0 quartz which means I am into the trouble of anaerobic conditions, Hydrogen sulfide, etc.

My tank is 3 months old, I still don't smell eggs, but I am in panic... I want to believe that maybe the cables are helping the circulation. If you say 'yes' then my heart beat will slow...



> quote:
> 
> What I'd like to know is why you think that you must add fertilizers to your aquarium?


I believe now you know the answer - it's a high tech tank - plants are growing like there's no tomorrow.

Maybe the question is why would I fertilize my Quartz... I guess that's because until I put some spikes beneath my echinodorus bleheri there was no progress.

Why Iron tablets?

Yes - I read that I have 330K months of supply in Diane's book but then The soil is burried so deep that maybe, just maybe - till the roots get there - I should add those tablets and also Roger testified regarding ferrous gluconate tablets as follows:



> quote:
> 
> I've used something similar to the Fergon iron before as a substrate suppliment. It worked.


And why I asked in this forum? For the honor of getting a direct advice from Diane.

Now Roger if I may ask one more question. U said



> quote:
> 
> Nitrification of ammonia is a very oxygen-demanding process. It won't work very quickly in the substrate -- possibly not at all.


Do you mean that adding ammonia to my gravel - the plants will not be able to consume/nitrify it? or do you mean bacteria won't be able to nitrify it? or both? or none???

Thank you for your help,

PE.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Roger, thanks mucho for stepping in.

As to PE's long letter. I think you will get more input from me if you ask one question at a time. 

Also, all of the information you want is covered in my book. I spent 5-6 years writing it, and I'm not willing to spend hours on Wet Thumb forum regurgitating what I wrote.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Roger testified regarding ferrous gluconate tablets as follows:
> 
> ...


That was in an unamended gravel substrate, not in a soil or anything vaguely soil-like.



> quote:
> 
> Do you mean that adding ammonia to my gravel - the plants will not be able to consume/nitrify it? or do you mean bacteria won't be able to nitrify it? or both? or none???


If the substrate is anoxic then the bacteria will not nitrify the ammonia at all. If the substrate has enough circulation to support bacterial nitrification then it may also have enough circulation to flush the ammonia out of the substrate and into the water column before it gets nitrified.

If there isn't much circulation then the ammonia will either diffuse out of the substrate, or it will remain available to plants. There is a limit to how fast the plants can use ammonia. A concentrated ammonia source like ammonium sulfate will probably saturate the plants' uptake rate. What isn't taken up will diffuse out.

Fertilizing with ammonium sulfate is certainly not a "natural" approach. No matter what your approach is, fertilizing an aquarium with ammonium sulfate is something that you should do very cautiously; there are inherent risks and you have to assess your own sensitivity to the possible consequences. Most of us find more desirable alternatives.

Roger Miller


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