# Perpetual Preservation System v.2004



## Edward

*Please see the newer version PPS v.2005*

--------------------
*Perpetual Preservation System v.2004* by Edward.

Many aquatic hobbyists are looking for this method that doesn't require large water changes. The reason may be time or size of tanks. This system also works with periodic and random water changes.

Entering elements proportionally allows one to perpetually preserve an optimum balance of nutrients. A fixed ratio of elements, dosed every day at very small quantity to maintain desired concentration in the water column. Twice a month or so, testing only for NO3 and PO4 determines what to dose the following month. 
--------------------
*Standard Dosing:*
NO3 - 0.75 
PO4 - 0.25 
K - 1.00
Mg - 0.10
--------------------
If testing of water column gives elevated NO3 level, then switch to *NO3-FREE Dosing:*
NO3 - 0.00 
PO4 - 0.25 
K - 1.00 
Mg - 0.10
--------------------
If testing of water column gives elevated PO4 level, then switch to *PO4-FREE Dosing:*
NO3 - 0.75 
PO4 - 0.00 
K - 1.00
Mg - 0.10
--------------------
--------------------
Solutions can be made as follow, K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4, CaCl2 and TE (trace elements).

*Standard* solution
0.75:0.25:1.00 (NO3O4:K)
KNO3 - 20.38 g 
KH2PO4 - 5.97 g 
K2SO4 - 15.74 g
in 500ml

*NO3-FREE* solution
0.00:0.25:1.00 (NO3O4:K) 
KNO3 - 0.00 g 
KH2PO4 - 5.97 
K2SO4 - 33.30 g
in 500ml

*PO4-FREE* solution
0.75:0.00:1.00 (NO3O4:K) 
KNO3 - 20.38 g 
KH2PO4 - 0.00 g 
K2SO4 - 19.56 g
in 500ml

*Ca* solution (for RO users only)
0.2 (Ca)
CaCl2 - 12.22 g (CaCl2 2H2O, Calcium Chloride Dihydrate)
in 500ml

*Mg* solution
0.1 (Mg)
MgSO4 - 16.90 g 
in 500ml

These solutions make rated ppm at 3 ml / 100 l. Example: solution 0.75:0.25:1.0 at 3 ml in 100 liters make 0.75 ppm NO3, 0.25 ppm PO4 and 1.0 ppm K. 
Dosing the same amount of ml, NO3O4:K:Mg solutions, make the most balanced nutrient spectrum.
--------------------
*How to start:*

*1.* Test for NO3 and PO4, make notes.

*2.* Keep dosing every day *Standard* and *Mg* solutions for 1 week. Test for NO3 and PO4 at the end of the week.

- If the ratio and levels are acceptable then continue the same dosing following week.
- If the levels are high, start dosing less ml the following week.
- If the ratio is wrong, discontinue the *Standard* solution and replace it with *NO3-FREE* or *PO4-FREE* solution. Keep dosing the following week then test again.

For 50 gallon tank at 1 Wpg Watt per gallon, dosing 3 ml every day keeps nutrients steady. For 130 gallon tank at 3 Wpg Watt per gallon, dosing 12 ml.

*3.* TE Trace elements is a separate issue. The best way is by observing plants for signs of deficiency, pale new growth. If that happens increase daily dose of the *TE* solution. Dosing 5 drops a day in 130 gallon tank at 3 Wpg Watt per gallon does the job. Overdosing is not beneficial.

*TE* Solution
0.1 (Fe)
TE - 23.81 g
in 500 ml

The CSM-B or Plant-Prod® Chelated Micronutrient Mix http://www.plantprod.com/catalogue/04Micronutrients.html can be used.

*4.* To increase KH use CaCO3.

*5.*To increase Ca use CaSO4, Mg use MgSO4. Ratio Ca:Mg of 4:1 is done by dosing a mix of dry 1.5 g CaSO4 and 1.0 g of MgSO4.

This system is efficient and easy to do.
Thank you for your time,
Edward


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## Error

Adding 3 parts KNO3, 1 part KH2PO4, and 2 parts K2SO4 to any volume of water will give you approximately the same percentage ratio of ingredients:

NO3: 37.211%
PO4: 12.714%
K+: 50.07%


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## Edward

Error said:


> Adding 3 parts KNO3, 1 part KH2PO4, and 2 parts K2SO4 to any volume of water will give you approximately the same percentage ratio of ingredients


Yes, that's the same ratio, dry weight, 3:1:2.
How do you like it? How do you use it?
Can you give more details, your experience.

Thank you


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## Error

I have been using it since I came across the original thread, though I erroneously added 4 parts K2SO4 instead of 2 for the first couple of dosings, which is why I posted my last post 

I literally added 1.00:.75:.25 with dry ingredients, gave me a lot more K+ than I wanted. I think N crashed as a result.

Growth seems to be ramping up a little...it's too early to tell, I think.


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## Error

Also, I am having trouble gauging traces. Plus, it's a soil substrate (as far as I can tell, it's entirely depleted). 5.5wpg w/CO2...and I dose the same ratio but dry.


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## Error

How are you measuring these grams of yours? Not many people have scales...I sure don't. Are you using spoons of some variety?

Also, could someone make a solution using just the 3:1:2 (say, teaspoons) ratio in 500 ml? How would one know how much to dose?


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## dennis

Error, I just bought a gram scale that should come next week. I got it from a "store" on ebay that deals specifically in scales. There are a lot of pocket digital gram scales out there. Many will do up to 500g, are acurate to .10g and mine was less than $30 with shipping. You can get cheaper ones that weigh less in the $20 range. Sorry that sounds like and infomercial, I have never used one before. 

YOu could use the 3:1:2 ratio with any measurments. If you want to use teaspoons then use Chuck Gadd's calculator and figure out the pm per ml added to your tank. You would have to figure out each nutrient individually but that would work fine.


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## Edward

Error said:


> Also, I am having trouble gauging traces. 5.5wpg w/CO2...and I dose the same ratio but dry.


Trace elements dosing is individual. Some people like more, some less. There is many commercial products available. Personally I use Plant-Prod® Chelated Micronutrient Mix, http://www.plantprod.com/catalogue/04Micronutrients.html , 
Mn - 2.00 %
Fe - 7.00 %
Zn - 0.40 %
Cu - 0.10 %
B - 1.30 %
Mo - 0.06 %

24 g - in 500 ml makes 0.1 ppm Fe at 3 ml / 100 l, same as all my solutions

Dosing regardless the size of tank, 1 drop a day up to 1 Watt per gallon, and 4 drops a day at 4 Watt per gallon. Watching the colour of plants gives good indication how much to dose.


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## Edward

Error said:


> How are you measuring these grams of yours? Not many people have scales...I sure don't. Are you using spoons of some variety?


I don't use spoons because inaccurate results. Some dry chemicals come as powder, some as pellets. It's best to use a digital scale. Any $30 postal scale will do. Try search on Sunbeam Digital Electronic Postal Scale Item Number 478657. Staples, Business Depot and so on.

*How to make the 5.97 g of KH2PO4?*
Dissolve 50 g of KH2PO4 in 500 ml. Take 59.71 ml of this solution, which is exactly 5.97 g of KH2PO4.



> Also, could someone make a solution using just the 3:1:2 (say, teaspoons) ratio in 500 ml?


As long as you don't go over the maximum solubility limitation.
Maximum solubility / 100ml 
KNO3 35.7g 
KH2PO4 22.0g 
K2SO4 12.0g 
MgSO4 35.6g

The scale is no problem. If anyone needs, I can send all the dry weighted nutrients by mail. Send me a message, let me know. You can add the water.


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## plantbrain

Edward:
Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.
The lower the lighting, the more nutrient "wiggle" room you will have.
I know some of your tank have low light.

I've seen a tank that did not have any changes for over 2 years with Discus that were breeding.

The inputs will be fish food/plant decay and the export will be plant cuttings/filter cleanings.

You can add something like SeaChem Equibrium and some tiny amounts of KNO3/KH2PO4 to make up for low fish loads.

But light is the best method to slow down rates and allow for the plants time to take in enough nutrients to produce good healthly growth.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bharada

Edward,
Your method definitely piques my interest as the thought of 50% weekly water changes on my 125g tank really does not appeal to my sensible side. But I'm not quite sure I understand your dosing measurements.

You state that the solutions provide rated ppm levels at 3 ml /100 l, yet for a 130g (492 l), 3wpg tank you recommend only 6 ml which is less than half the rated dosage. This in a growing condition where I would expect the need to supply additional nutrients to the tank. Can you please clarify the reasoning behind this?

Finally, when you do your monthly testing are you looking for a specific ppm reading for NO3 and PO4 or just a 3:1 ratio?

Thanks.


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## Edward

plantbrain said:


> Edward:
> Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.


Tom,
you want me to try non CO2 tank at 4Wg Watts per gallon?
Ludwigia Inclinata and Rotala Macrandra says why?

Edward


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## Edward

bharada said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand your dosing measurements.


This system is almost as simple as feeding fish. I am not good at explaining things.



> You state that the solutions provide rated ppm levels at 3 ml /100 l


This is for reference only, so we know what to expect. This tells us the ratios and concentration. No blind dosing.

The dosage quantity ml depends on the last NO3 and PO4 test. Dose every day very small quantity. On the end of the first week test water in the tank for NO3 and PO4. If too high, lower the daily dose. If not enough, increase the daily dose. 
This will get stabilized and create predictable condition in 2-3 weeks.



> Finally, when you do your monthly testing are you looking for a specific ppm reading for NO3 and PO4 or just a 3:1 ratio?


Looking for both, NO3 and PO4 ppm levels and also for NO3O4 ratio. You don't want 3:1 ratio in the water column.
To maintain stable water column ratio NO3O4 of 10:1, you need to use dosing ratio of 3:1 because plants take the PO4 faster then NO3.

What you want is to have measurable NO3 and PO4. By dosing every day you never run out of nutrients.

Practical example of 130g at 3Wg Watts per gallon. Solutions to dose:
01.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
02.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
03.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
04.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
05.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
06.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
07.day - Test for NO3 = 25 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 6ml to 2ml)
08.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
09.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
10.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
11.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
12.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
13.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
14.day - Test for NO3 = 10 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 2ml to 4ml)
15.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
16.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
17.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
18.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
19.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
20.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
21.day - Test for NO3 = 10 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change not needed)
22.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
23...

Thank you for your questions,
Edward


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## bharada

Thanks, Edward. Between this and your previous explanation in a photo thread I think I understand now.


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## Jeff Kropp

Edward said:


> 07.day - Test for NO3 = 25 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 6ml to 2ml)
> 14.day - Test for NO3 = 10 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 2ml to 4ml)


How do you explain your accrual of a 25/1 N/P ratio while dosing a 3/1 ratio solution?

How do you explain no change in tested PO4ppm with 3 different volumes of daily standard solution?

Is your return to estimative index target numbers in this last post just coincidental?

What are your feeding and water change habits?
___
Jeff


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## Edward

> How do you explain your accrual of a 25/1 N/P ratio while dosing a 3/1 ratio solution?


Dosing once NO3O4 10:1 gives approximately 10:1 ratio in the tank on the end of the 10th day. But, dosing 10 days 1:0.1 gives usually 5:0 ratio after 10 days. The dosing ratio is not the same with daily dosage program as with the over fertilize and flush program.


> How do you explain no change in tested PO4ppm with 3 different volumes of daily standard solution?


The first week NO3 and PO4 raised as 6ml was too much of a dose for the plants to handle. Values elevated to 25 ppm and 1 ppm. The dose was changed from 6 ml to 2 ml to regulate/slow nutrient levels. Lower K slowed PO4 uptake and also accumulated PO4 in plant mass from previous week did not require more PO4 to be taken. This is why PO4 level remains unchanged. Following week NO3 was down to 10 ppm and falling. To regulate levels, dosage was changed from 2 ml to 4 ml. From this point the higher K pushed plants for more PO4 uptake. Levels are now at desired values, exactly where we want them to be.
Every start of a regulated closed loop comes with swings ups and downs.

NO3 uptake remains at slow continuous rate, but PO4 is taken fast and used later by plants. In reality, even with dosing ratio of 3:1 the water column is at 10:0.1. Plants take more PO4 then they need and use it later. Running PO4 0 ppm in water column is not bad as long as some PO4 is being dosed daily.


> Is your return to estimative index target numbers in this last post just coincidental?


The NO3 and PO4 levels depend on test kit ability. We need to distinguish between None / Some / Excessive. For my test kits, it's 5-10 NO3 and 0.25 PO4. Red colour ratio and personal preference is an option too. This is an open system allowing any levels. See the NO3-FREE and PO4-FREE solutions. These can be used to correct ratio errors without water changes or to fine tune the water column as desired.


> What are your feeding and water change habits?


We have some tanks with no fish and some with light fish load. Not using tap water, RO only. Testing is being done continuously on all tanks for 10 years. No water changes done for months, many months. The fish, plants and I hate water changes.

Thank you Jeff,
Edward


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## niko

Edward,

I find this thread very interesting. Saying that you've ran your tanks in the described manner for 10 years now made me post this;

I hope that I don't sound overly excited but what do you think about writing an article explaining your approach? As I understand submitting articles is up to us and it is not really solicited by Art.

Yes, most of the information about your method is already on the forum, but it's in different threads, including the photography section.

--Nikolay


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## Edward

niko said:


> Edward,
> 
> I find this thread very interesting. Saying that you've ran your tanks in the described manner for 10 years now made me post this;


Niko, I wish. There was many years of struggle. I remember 10 years ago we could grow one leaf in two days on Echinodorus, but it died one week later. With all the CaNO3, K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4, TE, etc. from hydroponics and greenhouse industry, we just couldn't figure it out. It was CO2 we did not have at sufficient level.


> hope that I don't sound overly excited but what do you think about writing an article explaining your approach?


Maybe I could put it together.

I hope more people try it and help to improve this system even further.

Thank you Niko,
Edward


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## Robert Hudson

> Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.


You might find this interesting

On Wet Thumb, Diana Walstad made the following statement,



> The 55 gal with potted plants that I set up in March has for the last month been showing reduced plant growth; algae is starting to grow on the glass and some of the plants. While fish are doing great, I felt it was time to take action.
> 
> I measured nitrates and they were very high, 60 ppm or higher. The problem for plants may simply be salt accumulation. This increased salinity (from nitrates, chloride, sodium, etc) may have inhibited many plants. The water hardness has not changed, probably because these ions may precipitate (much calcium will precipitate as calcium phosphate or calcium carbonate) and be removed from the water.
> 
> In any case, I changed 70% of the water.
> 
> Please realize that this tank has gone for over 6 months with the same water that I set it up with. Thus, while I advocate infrequent water changes, there are times and situations where changing the water is a good idea.
> 
> Let common sense be your guide.


Diana has been the champion of no water changes


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## plantbrain

Robert Hudson said:


> Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.
> 
> 
> 
> Diana has been the champion of no water changes
Click to expand...

Yep, the easiest method there is. Wish more would do that method.
Slow your rates down, then you don't have to do much at all.
You can also use external plant filtration and not do water changes for years.

Adding CO2 changes the rate of growth and the rate of uptake. Similarly, adding more light does the same thing till you become CO2 limited.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

> Edward:
> "Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years. "
> 
> Tom,
> you want me to try non CO2 tank at 4Wg Watts per gallon?
> Ludwigia Inclinata and Rotala Macrandra says why?
> 
> Edward


No, 
I did not suggest nor imply that. On a 4w/gal tank, CO2 etc and you are asking for a more difficult to maintain dosing routine for non water change methods.

While you might be able to needle out a particular tank with a particular group and biomass of plants, it is very difficult to generalize at high light/CO2.

As I recall, your CO2 levels are not easily measured.
So that is somewhat unknown.

I am suggesting a much easier method of no water changes.
So what if you cannot grow a few stem plants that many have trouble with using CO2?

You certainly do NOT need 4w/gal to grow the above mentioned plants, I didn't, neither has Jeff or many folks.

Less light would allow more wiggle room in this method.

Add CO2? Yes, I would suggest it, but I've seen R. mac in non CO2 tanks doing alright, not well, but alright.

Not many grow L inciliata, I've done well with it. Never tried in in a non CO2 tank, so I could not say.

Some plants will surprise you though.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Error

I am going to try your system, Edward. I tested the water at the end of last week and got 50+/5+ NO3/PO4. That's not really what I want.

*Tank Statistics:*
46 gallons
5.5 watts per gallon 6700K and 10000K power compact
Gravel substrate with soil underlayer
Pressurized CO2 system
High bioload

_(Key: SS = Standard solution, PF = PO4-FREE solution, Mg = Magnesium solution, T = Trace solution)_

_(week.day)_
1.1: 90% water change before dose
1.1: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.2: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.3: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.4: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.5: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.6: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.7: 3 mL SS, 3 mL Mg, 5 mL T
1.7 Test results ~5.5 hours after dose: NO3: ~15 ppm, PO4: 5+ ppm
2.1 Test results ~1 hour after lights came on and before dose: NO3: ~10 ppm, PO4: 5+ ppm
Switching to *PO4-FREE* solution
2.1: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.2: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.3: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.4: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.5: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.6: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.7: 3 mL PF, 3 mL Mg, 5 drops T
2.7 Test results ~10.5 hours after dose: NO3: ~25 ppm, PO4: 5+ ppm

Observations: _(week.day)_
2.4: Ludwigia glandulosa, L. inclinata exhibiting smaller and somewhat stunted growth. Older leaves of Ammannia gracilis darkening and beginning to rot. Color of Ammannia multiflora is now a medium green, as opposed to the yellow that it was. Bacopa australis doing well. Long internodes and slow growth in Myriophyllum mattogrossense.

2.5: Bacopa australis doing very well. Growing fast. Haven't seen this good of growth since I bought it.


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## Edward

Error,
If I understand correctly, you started with water 50+/5+ NO3/PO4? No, good. You need to flush that away and start clean. It's easier.

Ok, ... no problem, now you have NO3 ~15 ppm, PO4 5+ ppm. Clearly you done it right as you switched to *PO4-FREE* solution now. Keep dosing the same amount of 3ml a day until your PO4 goes down.

An excellent example of starting up PPS, Perpetual Preservation System. It will stabilize soon and turn out to be easy and predictable.

Edward


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## plantbrain

Isn't easier to do a water change and not test ? Test kits often are inaccurate. Standard solutions are much more accurate.

I can change the water in a tank faster than I can test these parameters.

Also, very few test kits will test for orthophosphate to 0.1ppm, at this low PO4 level, most of PO4, espeically if you don't do water changes/often, will be organioc forms(DOP) which plants do not use, algae do, so the test kits typically measure total PO4, so this gives you a false sense of PO4 dosing supply that is available to the plants.

Dosing routines etc, need to be scaled to the light intensity and biomass as well to run but it is certainly possible, I'm just saying the water change and redose method is much more effective and requires far less testing/less expense(good test kits are not cheap), less time to explain, works on any CO2 enriched tank at any light level, and require virtually no math.

One thing that you might wish to try out, measured rates and measure them for monocultures of particular plant species. 

Rates(mole/24 hrs, grams/day etc) are far more useful, but simply because a plant takes up PO4 at a given rate, does not imply it requires that rate for healthy growth, the same is true for Fe and NO3 etc.

You may wish to try out two similar tanks one with low liught, the other with lots of light and determine the rates based on the PPS method.

I think this will give you more predictive power and usefulness on a broader spectrum of tanks/conditions.

I'd tried this method as have several other folks in the past.
Poor test kits will cause many assumptive errors.
It's a lot of testing day in/day out.

At least we know high PO4/traces does not cause algae and CO2 at 30ppm is fine/better also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aviel

Tom,

50% water change doesn't reset your tank. U still need to measure in order to decide how much to add after water change and in order to know how 'good' you were at maintaining the levels that you targeted - no?

Aviel.


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## Jeff Kropp

plantbrain said:


> You may wish to try out two similar tanks one with low liught, the other with lots of light and determine the rates based on the PPS method.


Tom, he has 4 tanks with different light levels; look at his sig. In this thread he claims that for all 4 tanks a 3/1 N/P ratio solution must be used to maintain a 10/1 N/P ratio in each tank. Note Error's test results and compare to Edward's; unfortunatly Edward has not provide full data sets for all 4 tanks. I look forward to Errors next round of reportage and an update of Edward's.

What's the PPS method?
___
Jeff


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## Error

Jeff Kropp said:


> I look forward to Errors next round of reportage


I am editing the post above every day. No sense in cluttering this thread.



Jeff Kropp said:


> What's the PPS method?


Look at the title of the the thread


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## Gomer

Aveil, 50% doesn't completely reset, but it does prevent build up


Lets give 2 examples....suppose 50% water change and 10ppm NO3 dosing per week

1) if plants NEVEr uptake any NO3 and there are no additional sources, the most you can ever havein the tank is 20ppm.
2) suppose the tank NET NO3 at the end of the first week is 5ppm (meaning that the sum of nitrate from bacteria conversion of waste minus the nitrate consumed is 5pm), then the most NO3 you can ever build up is 15ppm


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## Error

Some thoughts:

Either 1) I have a bad PO4 kit (brand new Hagen) and there's no PO4 in the water to drive NO3 uptake, or 2) my bioload is high enough to affect the water column content of NO3 and PO4 significantly. There are about three dozen juvenile to young adult montezumae swords in the tank, along with about a dozen Barbus rhomboocellatus and the standard SAE/Otocinclus algae-eating crew.


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## Jeff Kropp

Error said:


> Some thoughts:


Perhaps the PPS method just never changes measured ppm of P regardless of one's routine or volumes. This is what Edward's and your data suggest.

What are the calculated ppm concentrations per tank volume for each day's dose? What does that add up to over one week in your schedual? Can you estimate your average N uptake for each week based on that information?

If your P test kit is worthless but your N test kit seems accurate you can guess at P availability by your N uptake rates. However this requires more frequent testing of N to monitor short term fluctuations. N uptake slows as P becomes less available and accelerates up to the rate of anouther limiting factor if enough P is available. So monitoring N uptake can give you important information about your tanks momentum. I think the N uptake rate can also be observed visually by noticing pearling or streaming rate changes when combined with visual clues of plant growth. Your recent subjective observations move you in that direction. Problem now is to correlate those observations with the data you have collected. Why is it that your bacopa has done so well while other plants have languished this last week?
___
Jeff


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## Edward

Jeff said:


> Perhaps the PPS method just never changes measured ppm of P regardless of one's routine or volumes. This is what Edward's and your data suggest.


You never seen my data. I posted only a simplified example of NO3 regulation in this thread. Dosing NO3O4 at 3:1 or 0:1 or 3:0 will make measurable difference in PO4.

Error started the program with unknown levels of NO3 and PO4. Somewhere from >50 ppm NO3 and >5 ppm PO4. Then he did a water change and did not test NO3 nor PO4.
The NO3 came down to a measurable level after one week. However his PO4 is still out of range at >5 ppm from previous Estimative index program. How can one analyze unmeasurable data?

His tank needs to be cleaned first by water changes until the levels can be properly tested.

Edward


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## Jeff Kropp

Edward said:


> You never seen my data.


I'm sorry, that was a snarky quip.

How about posting your data showing the dynamic N/P relationship? Perhaps even include the data sets from 3 diff light level tanks, as Tom suggested. If error's test kit is bad, he may be able to guestimate an adjusted data set for future evaluation based on your observations.
___
Jeff


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## plantbrain

aviel said:


> Tom,
> 
> 50% water change doesn't reset your tank. U still need to measure in order to decide how much to add after water change and in order to know how 'good' you were at maintaining the levels that you targeted - no?
> 
> Aviel.


50%(or more etc) will prevent anything from becoming higher in concentration, you can run the math and figure out how much relative left over you have from the previous week's owrth of then remioaing 50% etc.

So you can hit a good range of parameters without any testing and likely get closer unless you are fairly anal about testing and possess some good quality testing kits/equipment.

I suggest pH/KH/GH test kits only. If you want to for your own knowledge and to prove things to yourself, great, do it.

But a large water change + dosing known amounts/volumes of nutrients will re set the tank(at least most of the water column and remove most of the organic fraction.

You can also figure out how much a high light/non limited tank will consume and then you know the *rate* of nutrient uptake/removal etc.

Doesn't matter if the nutrients are off by 1-2ppm of NO3 etc unless you are skirting the minimums. Tghe rate is a verty important thing to find and it's done over years with many plants and tanks, not just one isolated system. You need to do comparisons(lots, the more the better)

All that matters is that the tank is non limiting and things don't build up too high.

And you have to assume your test kits work well and give accurate readings, which is not always the case. Espeically with iron/traces and low levels.

That gave folks lots of trouble in the past. Still does, folks don't like to test as a rule, so finding a habit that skirts that issue and porvides the plants with a good supply of non limiting nutrients does well and removes more unknowns.

If you want to get miore anal aboput it, I suppose you could use only RO replacement water and do larger water changes, I did this in the past.

Lots of work and a royal PITA, we will see how you feel after a few years of doing the testing routine and all.

There's a lot of work I simply do not have to do to get the results.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## EDGE

Error, 

I started PPS 4 days ago with PO4 free.

I have the same problem you are having with PO4 being at the same level and NO3 accumulating. BBA and spot algae is also appearing after the new system. 5 drop per CSM+B in the system causes hair algae. I am not sure if that could be the reason for spot algae and BBA in the tank.

Either My PO4 test kit (Hagen) is having the same problem as yours or something else is not right.

I am going to do 2x 75% waterchange in 2 days and start over with low level of nutrients in the tank.

Upon resetting, I will be dosing 3 drops of CSM+B instead of 5 drop and see if that will improve the algae issues.


----------



## niko

I'm gearing up for some serious testing of Edward's PPS and ove the last 2 weeks or so I've been talking to him for hours in the APC chat. Edward is extremely helpful and I highly appreciate that.

Because Edward has actual tanks that he's been running quite a long time using PPS I'd say that that the system is worth trying. It seems to me that there's something that we shouldn't forget; 

The original idea is to have a tank in which we KNOW what is going on. As we well know, even the smallest thing could throw the balance of the tank off. Today I read about switching to different light bulbs gradually and not at once because the plants need time to adapt. I personally consider that a hassle and not really needed. But it shows us once again that anything we do or let happen in the tank may have serious consequences.

So Edward's hope is to test PPS in different tanks with different conditions with the help of some of us here. It'd be wonderful if everything goes great from the first try and it'd be very disappointing if things fail despite the efforts. But I think that it's more important to find out and understand WHY things went right or wrong. So attention to detail (as much as the tools/approaches I use allow me) will be my primary goal.

To wrap this up I'd return to the beginning of my post - Edward is very helpful and by trying our best when testing PPS and consistently being precise we'd show appreciation for that.

(  ...Ok I think I've watched one too many presidential debates, because of the style of my post I feel like it could start with "My fellow Americans...", hehe)

--Nikolay


----------



## niko

Here are some TDS substrate tests:

I tested 4 substrates by rinsing about 1/2 cup of each with RO water, placing the substrate in its own clean cup, and adding RO to fill the cup. I let the 4 cups sit like that for a week and then I tested the TDS:

- Fluorite (fine, coarse sand size leftovers from washing Fluorite)- 180
- Tex Blast Filter Media ("natural gravel", used for pool filters) - 98
- Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil - 450
- Terralit (normally not a top substrate layer, expected high TDS) - 610

I have not checked the initial TDS of the RO water. I always buy it from the same place, a batch that I got 4 days ago showed a TDS reading of 10 ppm.

Today I tried to get some Decoline White Quartz Sand but the lfs will have it in 3 or so weeks. They suggested Carib Sea Marine sand pointing out that it will not alter the pH of freshwater and it's also a bit coarser. I just set up the "cup test" with it and the immediate TDS reading is 17.

I mean to get some akadama since DallasBonsai is here in town and test it too.

Any opinions or suggestions? Test KH, pH?

--Nikolay


----------



## Its me

Hi,

I would like to know if there is any chance of the author of this text allow me to translate it to portuguese, since its not known method here and i would like to share it with others. 

I would include the original author in the translation of course.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Andrey

I am very impressed by this approach. Result is exiting me to repeat this experiment.
In the same time I have some questions about how it is organized.

I have short question about the rest of components that may still in the tank.
One of components is MgSO4
If plants absorb Mg than what happens with SO4?
Is it on of reasons for very low pH?

Additional question is about pH controller and how those tanks are supplied by CO2?
Is it switched on/of time to time, for example, during the night? 

Thanks,
Andrey


----------



## Edward

Its me said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like to know if there is any chance of the author of this text allow me to translate it to Portuguese, since its not known method here and i would like to share it with others.
> 
> I would include the original author in the translation of course.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Hi,

certainly, feel free to share PPS with your friends hobbyists. This article has been already translated and posted on boards in many countries.

Thank you,
Edward


----------



## Edward

Andrey said:


> I have short question about the rest of components that may still in the tank.
> One of components is MgSO4
> If plants absorb Mg than what happens with SO4?
> Is it on of reasons for very low pH?


Hi Andrey,

plants will take SO4 if available, here is a plant tissue analysis to demonstrate.











> Additional question is about pH controller and how those tanks are supplied by CO2?


PPS doesn't have any effect on using CO2 regulators or CO2 injection. Functions as usual, keeping CO2 at 30 ppm.



> Is it switched on/of time to time, for example, during the night?


I run CO2 injection 24 hours.

Thank you,
Edward


----------



## dennis

Edward,

Is this chart based on your findings or from another source? What about other nutrient forms factoring to the uptake values, ie. other N forms and N in general, other organic forms of P (although I don't they they are readily avaliable to plants, they can be made avaliable) etc. 

As far as that graph goes, uptake rates are based on ratios, which we have known about for a while. For instance, if a plant takes up 5 ppm of NO3 in a day, then it will only take in .55ppm of PO4, that is a ratio of 9, about par for a healthy planted tank with a high fish load. This all makes sense

Do you know the ratios of all the various nutrients and how they relate? All this info comes down to one thing, a non limited enviroment. At some point there will be a limit to growth and plant uptake, even if that limit is based on the plants natural ability to only synthesis nutrients so fast. 

I think this also show us that most of us have taken to limiting our tanks in ways we had not thought of. K being a big player in this. Many of us have stopped adding more K other than what is obtained from KNO3. If memory serves, KNO3 is only 30% K yet the uptake chart shows almost 50% K is needed, based on NO3. This assuems a tank not limited by either light or CO2. It also does not account for the amounts of N (in their various forms) produced through fish, waste, dcaying matter, etc.. K is not really added unless we add it in inorganic forms. 

I really like your PPS system Edward. I think there is a lot to learn from it and I would like to hear more about what you know concerning nutrient uptake rates and ratios.


----------



## Edward

dennis said:


> Edward,
> 
> Is this chart based on your findings or from another source?


 This information can be found for example here, http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/ah_main/nov1997.html . This is very nice work.


> As far as that graph goes, uptake rates are based on ratios, which we have known about for a while. For instance, if a plant takes up 5 ppm of NO3 in a day, then it will only take in .55ppm of PO4, that is a ratio of 9, about par for a healthy planted tank with a high fish load. This all makes sense


 I had success with dosing ratio of 3:1 NO3O4.


> Do you know the ratios of all the various nutrients and how they relate?


 We can only guess and keep experimenting.


> I think this also show us that most of us have taken to limiting our tanks in ways we had not thought of. K being a big player in this.


Absolutely right, I spent a great deal of my time with K.


> I really like your PPS system Edward. I think there is a lot to learn from it and I would like to hear more about what you know concerning nutrient uptake rates and ratios.


Lets try and put all the results of our experiments together to improve this system even further.

Thank you,
Edward


----------



## Andrey

Hi Edward,

Thank you for the explanation.
I have addition question about your tanks.
Do you use under gravel heating system there?
If "Yes" could you add few words about in which mode?

Thanks once more,
Andrey


----------



## Edward

Andrey said:


> Do you use under gravel heating system there?


Heating cables never helped anything. People tried and there was no difference.


----------



## Andrey

I would assume you do not use it. Right?


----------



## Edward

Andrey said:


> Do you use under gravel heating system there?
> I would assume you do not use it. Right?


I used to, but not any more. I didn't see any difference then I took it out.


----------



## mm12463

Okay I'm going to try PPS. Never mixed my own ferts before. But my bottles will only hold 400ml, not 500ml as Edward has laid out. No big deal. But can someone check my math and double check things for me?

Next question is how do you guys reseal your ferts? I picked up 1lb bags from Greg Watson and I assume if I keep them in there bags, maybe double bag into a larger zip lock and place in a cool dry place I am good to go.

Anyway just waiting for a pocket scale to arrive to measure things. Figure it was worth the $20. LOL I also picked up a graduated cylinder when I ordered my bottles from US plastic. Few extra bucks and I know its over kill but wtf, why not.

I'll make sure to docment things also so I can provide some feedback. Not to mention for my website too.

Thanks in advance for checking my math.


----------



## S

Just a suggestion...the bottles on your website are very colorful and though they look nice that lets you know that light can penetrate the bottles. I would think that fertilizer solutions are better stored in bottles that do not allow the light in. I find that "old" commercial fertilizer bottles are the best as they are in convenient sizes and do not allow light to penetrate.


----------



## Edward

mm12463 said:


> But can someone check my math and double check things for me?


Your math is ok.


> Next question is how do you guys reseal your ferts?


No special requirements, store it like any kitchen salt.


----------



## Edward

S said:


> I would think that fertilizer solutions are better stored in bottles that do not allow the light in.


 You can keep the bottles in a cabinet, no light there.


----------



## EDGE

Edward, I added 3/4 tsp of Turbo Calcium on Wed after water change. 1/4 tsp more than the usual dosage. The Ca testing in the tank is not as I have expected. It still show it as 20 ppm Ca in the tank water and not a higher level. 

TDS is at 215.


----------



## Edward

The contents of Turbo Calcium is anhydrous Calcium chloride. For every ppm of Ca there is 1.77 ppm of Cl, an unnecessary trace element and high conductivity pollutant.

I recommend CaSO4 Calcium sulphate. One ppm of Ca comes with only 0.80 ppm of S, a macro nutrient.


----------



## EDGE

I am not concern about the TDS.

TDS raises by 10-20 each day because of onyx. If I want to keep TDS stable, I need to remove onyx (which is not possible). I get a gain of approx 80 TDS between water change ouside of the first dosing. 

From Wed to Sat is 4 days. I have a raise between 40 to 80 because of Onyx. Take the middle for median 

215 TDS - 60 gain in TDS over 4 days period = 155. not a huge number without Onyx. 

I am just wondering how much I should be dosing to get 20 ppm since 3/4 tsp CaCl2 gave me the same 20 ppm reading as 1/2 tsp of CaCl2


----------



## Edward

CaCl2 anhydrous,

0.277 g => 1 ppm / 100 l / 25.0 gall
5.539 g => 20 ppm / 100 l / 25.0 gall
8.308 g => 20 ppm / 150 l / 37.5 gall
16.62 g => 20 ppm / 300 l / 75.0 gall


----------



## EDGE

Thanks


----------



## mm12463

Well I have been dosing the standard solution, mg, and trace mix for about two weeks. No test results so far since Big Al's took forever to get me my test kits.

Anyway the plants are growing fine, I'm not too worried about dosing too much since it is daily and the 3mls tossed in a day is pretty small. Now that I have the test kits I need to do a water change and a trim. Here is how the tank looked this morning. I need to change things..to many fast growers.










More images here. 

Either way, I find this approach much easier then the commercial products. Cheaper, super easy to do and one could certainly modify it to suit their needs.

Photo sucks since it so overgrown the light is not getting down there for the shot, looks a lot better in person. That and I could not get the white balance right. Grr![/url]


----------



## Nystina

I was wondering if there are any potential problems with doing water changes every week? Your method seems to be based on fewer changes, but i have to do them until i can get the nutrients right. 

Thanks!


----------



## Edward

Nystina said:


> I was wondering if there are any potential problems with doing water changes every week?


There is no problem to do water changes because the nutrients are being supplied every day.


> Your method seems to be based on fewer changes, but i have to do them until i can get the nutrients right.


The PPS system works well with any water change program. It does not matter if the water changes are irregular, periodic, random or complete.


----------



## plantbrain

Err wait a minute here............I thought *no water changes *was the point here..................

Otherwise it becomes no different than the Estimative index.......
Which does nor rely on daily dosing, nor RO water, nor test kits, nor a PO4 excess/NO3 excess issues, nor more complicated dosing.

It was based on max plant growth at very high light levels and assumes no algae growth due to excess nutrients which are flushed out each week.
Dosing can become less as the light is reduced if the aquarist so choses, which drives the system to begin with.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2418&start=0

See precisely *where* the thread was started.

The goal it seems to me was one to reduce water changes.

I can go a few weeks doing the estimative index without water changes, but I *know* the tank will be in better shape by doing the weekly water changes. You and others can try that and see for yourself if you think that is true. It also removed left over plant leaves, detritus and other gunk. Makes the tank cleaner looking over all.

Anyone can try to reduce the amount of dosing and add less and less till they hit a critical point where they start to see a deficiency then keep adding a touch more to prevent that. This is Jeff's "just enough" approach.

This relies on the plants as an indicator and reduces the nutrient volumes needed vs the estimative index approach. This method will work better at lower light/CO2, if you try to assume the dosing rate for a tank with 1.5w/gal and 4w/gal are similar, you will run into a great deal of probelms.

I prefer overkill to skating the thin ice of "just enough". 
As you reduce the *lighting intensities*, this approach, "just enough" approaches and the estimative index, non CO2 methods all become very similar in terms of nutrients and uptake rates.

Light drives=> CO2uptake=> which drives NO3=> etc on down the line.

A ratio that provides "just enough" may *not* for other tanks due to different species specific requirements and enzymatic systems that possess both low and high affinity inducible uptake systems and growth rate differences due to light/CO2 etc. These thing matter when trying to use a more generalized system.

Non CO2 tanks are the easiest long term perpetual preservation systems and require no water changes for 6-24 months. Discus bred in such a system with no water changes for 2 full years. Tanks is dosed daily also, fish food. Tank looked good also. But a CO2 tank with low light would also do great, once a week dosing, once a week water change, seems awful easy to me and produces wonderful results.

I think overall folks are asking for it with no water changes and CO2 high light tanks. It's interesting to see the uptake rates and I learned a great deal this way, but for a long term method to produce nice tanks, it does not provide a measure of wiggle room that water changes and less light allow you.

Still, I wonder how this is different by simply seeing how long you can go without water changes. Your light intensity needs to be addressed and stated also when suggesting a daily or any other rate that adds just enough, the lighting/CO2 will drive the uptakes at different speeds.

Adding 0.75ppm of NO3 per day would never be enough in some of my tanks at high light/CO2 but might be excessive for other tanks without much light/CO2.

I got around that issue by using and measuring uptake rates at very high levels and assuming the rest of the tanks with less light, would have plenty of nutrients.

It worked. Doesn't cause algae, doesn't require much testing(You can if you want) or RO water+ reconsituation, more complicated nutrient routines, and works at all light levels.

I don't mind doing a water change with tap and have it over it and done with vs making RO, adding things to get it, testing more, etc all to avoid a water change.

So if we do water changes, how is this system different than just enough/estimative index method that suggest water changes as well?
*Adding low light makes all routines easier *and allows more wiggle room, that issue has not been addressed much here. I can dose weekly or daily at low light, I can go longer without water changes as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Nystina

Actually i was thinking of combining the two methods (PPS and Estimative Index) I like the idea of (err....uhhhh....I need) to do weekly water changes, but i also like the idea of a daily dose and the PPS seems to be easier to dose for a newb such as myself. I haven't tried either as of yet, but i'm currently trying to work the things out that i don't quite understand about both methods and tailor one for myself.

Maybe if Tom or Edward have any feelings on this? :wink: 
Thanks!


----------



## TWood

Um, with the Fertilator up and running, it seems to me that both these methods (PPS and EI) create more work than is necessary. :twisted: 

TW


----------



## Nystina

-I plan on using the PPS but doing more frequent (weekly for now, maybe bi-weekly in the future)

Okies, here are my questions:

1) When you do a water change, how do you dose on that day? Do you replace a certain percentage of nutrients? How does this work?

2) Regarding traces:



> 24 g - in 500 ml makes 0.1 ppm Fe at 3 ml / 100 l, same as all my solutions
> 
> Dosing regardless the size of tank, 1 drop a day up to 1 Watt per gallon, and 4 drops a day at 4 Watt per gallon. Watching the colour of plants gives good indication how much to dose.


I'm still not sure about this, do you add 4 drops TOTAL? for a 4wpg or 4 drops per gallon?

I don't use the same micro mix as you, i use plantex CSM, but it looks like it has the same amounts of nutrients.

3) Is there any problems with cutting dry weights and water amounts in half?

Forgive me, i'm slow :wink:

Thanks!


----------



## Edward

Nystina said:


> 1) When you do a water change, how do you dose on that day? Do you replace a certain percentage of nutrients? How does this work?


Keep it simple, dose as nothing has happened.


> 2) Regarding traces


On the beginning you can start dosing 10 drops a day.


> 3) Is there any problems with cutting dry weights and water amounts in half?


Not sure I understand. Can you please go into more details on this one.

Thank you,
Edward


----------



## TWood

I do 20% water changes each week because our tapwater is treated with chloramine, comes out of the tap at 9.8 pH, and is variable in temperature. I don't treat with something like Amquel for the chloramine because it's just another chemical into the mix. 

I test NO3 and PO4 after the change and then dose dry ferts (KNO3 and Monosodium Phosphate) by way of the Fertilator/Gadd Calculator to get to 10 ppm NO3 and 2 ppm PO4 at the beginning of each week. Those readings usually drop by 50% each week.

I use the new growth on h. difformis as an indicator for Fe shortage, and dose CSM+B as required. The only wild card is K+. If NO3 doesn't drop during the week, I'll add 5 ppm *K+* a week at a time to get a response. 

Seems more straightforward and lower maintenance to me. :-s 

TW

Edit - *K+*


----------



## Edward

Hi TW,
of course it's working for you because what you are doing is EI.

Edward


----------



## Nystina

What i mean by: Is there any problems with cutting dry weights and water amounts in half?



> Standard solution
> 0.75:0.25:1.00 (NO3O4:K)
> KNO3 - 20.38 g
> KH2PO4 - 5.97 g
> K2SO4 - 15.74 g
> in 500ml


If i use:
KNO3 - 10.19g 
KH2PO4 - 2.985g 
K2SO4 - 7.87g 
in 250ml

My bottles do not hold 500 ml so i have to downsize. I never took chemistry so i don't know if this will work.

Also, 


> On the beginning you can start dosing 10 drops a day


This is just a starting point i'm guessing. I would imagine it would have something to do with the size of my tank/WPG, but you did not ask that info. (50g/4WPG). Am i just looking for changes? I've tried the seachem iron test, but i think it's garbage and i cannot get any identifiable reading from it so i'm having a little bit of trouble gauging .1 ppm of Fe. I don't really notice subtle changes so it's hard to tell if i'm going in the right direction.

Thanks for your help Edward


----------



## TWood

Edward said:


> Hi TW,
> of course it's working for you because what you are doing is EI.
> 
> Edward


Not really, at least as far as I understand EI. That method seems to depend on large water changes and basically resetting the tank each time. Okay if your tapwater is good to go straight into the tank, or you don't have fish. With Aquarium Pharmaceuticals selling reliable NO3 and PO4 test kits at $7 each for something like 100 tests, it just seems easier to do those tests and go from there, regardless of the volume of water changes.

TW


----------



## Edward

Nystina said:


> Is there any problems with cutting dry weights and water amounts in half?
> 
> If i use:
> KNO3 - 10 g
> KH2PO4 - 3 g
> K2SO4 - 8 g
> in 250ml


Hi Nystina,
there is no problem. That will get you the same solutions.
10 drops of TE solution a day will work just fine. Fe test kits don't tell us much, no need to use them.


----------



## Edward

TWood said:


> With Aquarium Pharmaceuticals selling reliable NO3 and PO4 test kits at $7 each for something like 100 tests, it just seems easier to do those tests and go from there, regardless of the volume of water changes.


Hi TW,
two tests a week is not that hard, I agree.


----------



## chiahead

Hi, I just recently started the PPS system on my 80 gallon tank. I started it 5 days ago. I am noticing the water is starting to turn green. Should I test and hold up on the ferts, or do I need a water change. I have been dosing the PO4 free solution at 4 ml a day and 4 drops TE a day. I started with NO3 of 15 and PO4 of 3.0ppm.


----------



## Edward

Hi chiahead,
not sure if this is your tank http://www.fish-forums.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=505 , can you please give more information. Are you using tap and what are the parameters. What kind of substrate, etc. More details is needed to create a system that will work in your conditions.

Tap: NO3, PO4, GH, KH, Ca, Mg, TDS
Tank: NO3, PO4, GH, KH, Ca, Mg, TDS, pH, CO2, gall, Wpg, lighting hours, substrate, fish load, plant density

Thank you,
Edward


----------



## chiahead

that is my tank alright. I am using R/o water straight. My substrate is a flourite/eco complete/onyx sand mix. My testing before the start of the PPS system were:
PH-6.7 kh-7 gh-8 No3-15 Po4-3.0
using pressurized Co2 with ph controller, 260 watts PC lighting on for 12 hours. 100% planted. I have about 50 small schooling fish(tetra's, etc)
If there is anything else u need to know just ask. Thank u for the quick response and the help in general.


----------



## Edward

Hi chiahead,
you will need to take care of two issues:

*1. Ca, Mg, KH*
Because Onyx and Eco leak Ca and Mg at unpredictable level, they need to be tested and controlled. Hagen Ca test kit and any GH kit help to determine Ca and Mg concentrations. Here is how to calculate Mg from GH and Ca, http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2544 . Good levels are 20 - 30 ppm of Ca and 5 ppm of Mg. KH serves as a buffer to get chosen pH at 30 - 40 ppm of CO2, see KH/pH/CO2 Table.

*2. NO3, PO4, K*
It is desirable to maintain stable levels of NO3 and PO4. Using test kit sweet spot works the best. Look at the colour charts as *Low - Normal - High*. Don't worry about K, it is included in the Solutions.

Did you calibrate your NO3 and PO4 test kits? It is easy with RO, see FAQ.
You use 12 hours of lighting. Most people use 10 or less.
You can dose 4 ml of DS Solution with 4 ml of PO4-FREE Solution a day until situation improves.

*DS Discus Solution*
0.00:0.00:1.00 (NO3O4:K) 
KNO3 - 0 g 
KH2PO4 - 0 g 
K2SO4 - 37.12 g 
in 500ml

Keep your notes and post your results.

Edward


----------



## chiahead

how does one calibrate a test kit. I use salifert test kits. My 12 hours of lighting has about 6 hours of 100% light and the other 6 has 1/2 the lighting. I tried to create an actual day cycle. The plants seem to be growing like mad, and the water is barely green. I will do a testing today and see what I get. Do you think that since I dont have a ca or mg test kit and I have the onxy sand that I should not dose the Mg and Ca in the mix? Just stick with the Po4 free? should I dose the DS and the Po4 together? and also the TE of course. That link with the charts is a little confusing, I am going to have to study it a while. I had a hard time finding a good calcium source as I was trying to stay away from the calcium chloride. What about gypsum. It says it is calcium sulfate, it doesnt disolve well at all. I will purchase a Ca and Mg test kit so I can know the values. I need it its just expensive.


----------



## chiahead

I just tested my values:
kh=6 gh=11 Kno3=25ppm Po4=2.0 TDS=264

I have a question about test kits. I use Salifert but I also have some Nutrafin testers. When I use both the readings are different. For example the above readings are from Salifert testers. I have a kh, gh and Po4 test from Nutrafin. They read kh=9 gh=6 Po4=3.0
Which should I use or trust. What test kits are good and reliable?


----------



## niko

chiahead said:


> how does one calibrate a test kit.


Refer to the "Test Kit calibration" section of this FAQ. It basically says that if you mix the Standard PPS solution (as described in the current thread) and put 2 mls of it in 10 liters of water you will have 5 ppm NO3. Take a sample from the 10 liters of water and test it. Your test should show 5 ppm NO3.

--Nikolay


----------



## Edward

Hi chiahead,

*Hagen GH/KH*
1 GH drop = 1.12 dGH
1 KH drop = 0.56 dGH

Check your test kit manuals. Can't comment on the Salifert kit, don't have one.
Try dosing only the DS Discus solution for a week.

Edward


----------



## chiahead

I am going to have to stop the PPS for now, I just noticed some Ick on my fish I will have to medicate and the plants hate it. Thank you for the advice and I will resume the PPS when I am done medicating


----------



## plantbrain

Edward said:


> *DS Discus Solution*
> 0.00:0.00:1.00 (NO3O4:K)
> KNO3 - 0 g
> KH2PO4 - 0 g
> K2SO4 - 37.12 g
> in 500ml
> 
> Edward


Why would you *not* add PO4 to a discus tank?
Food has far more N relative to P.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Edward

plantbrain said:


> Why would you *not* add PO4 to a discus tank?
> Food has far more N relative to P.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hi Tom,

the reason to dose temporarily DS (Discus Solution) is because chiahead PO4 is already at 3.0 ppm.

Thank you,
Edward


----------



## plantbrain

That(PO4) will change........and need monitored.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chiahead

Edward-I just finished the medication cycle and did a 50% wtr change. My tank specs are:
kh-3
gh-6
Kno3-15
Po4-1.0
TDS-146

Should I restart the PPS with the standard solution. If so how much is good to go with for an 80 gallon? ALso, similarly how much TE solution should I dose. Should I be dosing MG or CA. Maybe not as I have 1/3 Onxy sand, and my GH never goes below 5. I am having a hard time finding a good Ca source as well. I just bought a marine suppliment of calcium chloride, but I dont know the percentage and its a liquid. Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## Edward

Hi chiahead,

dose DS Discus Solution daily 6ml.
Don't worry about the Ca and Mg until you get the Ca test kit. You don't want to over fertilize. You can dose 1ml of TE for now. Keep your CO2 30 - 40 ppm, the CO2 table is in this Fertilizer forum FAQ. Do you use any pH buffers? 
PM me if you would like our new PPS Analysis xls program for easy data keeping. It is a standardized fertilizing spreadsheet for PPS users we share.

Edward


----------



## chiahead

during the medication I was dosing about 5 ml of DS solution and the leaves started to show signs of Ca deficiency(curly, distorted new growth), so I dropped it down to 2 ml daily. Ofcourse that could of been due to the meds. I did buy a Ca test today it read 30 ppm or so. I need to restest after the wtr change though. I do not use any ph buffers, arent they bad for planted tanks as many are phosphate buffers?


----------



## Edward

Hi chiahead,

not sure what Ca test kit you got. With the Hagen kit we use 2x more water, in 10ml we get better resolution. One drop in 10ml is 10 ppm. Good range is 20 to 30 ppm.
If your GH is 6 and Ca is 30 ppm then your Mg is 8 ppm. No need to dose Ca or Mg. You are doing fine. Test before water change and make notes. 
It is good not to use pH buffers as they make it impossible to determine CO2 concentrations.
DS Discus Solution does not cause curly distorted growth.

Edward


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## SAWALLACE

Is the PPS spreadsheet available anywhere to download? I just recently started the system, look forward to seeing the results!


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## chiahead

hi Edward,

I bought a Ca test from Salifert. I just tested after my water change yesturday and got about 15. The test isnt very accurate at low levels. Looks like the Ca test was designed for saltwater which makes sense. Well, the deficiency started during the mediaction so it may be that. It did look alot like a calcium def though. Leaves curly, distorted new growth. Leaves almost transsparent, whitish or very light green. My ammania seneglesis especially curled its leaves. I will wait and see if they start to pick back up. Should I dose the DS for a week or be testing daily until I get the amounts nailed in? Also, when should I change at what values No4=10 and Po4=1.0???


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## Edward

SAWALLACE said:


> Is the PPS spreadsheet available anywhere to download? I just recently started the system, look forward to seeing the results!


Hi SAWALLACE,

the file can be downloaded here: PPS.Analysis.20041231.xls

Please rename the file to SAWALLACE.PPS.Analysis.20041231.xls
If you need help, email your xls file to [email protected]

Anyone interested can do the same.
Thank you,
Edward


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## chiahead

this appears to be an excel program only. I do not have excel, oh well.


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## gnatster

.xls files are Excel. This spreadsheet requires Excel 2002 or better to work properly.


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## chiahead

Ok, I am starting to get some hair algae. My new growth seems deformed and stunted. I have tried upping the trace and then lowering it way down. I also tried adding calcium. I am still dosing the DS solution at 6ml daily and 1ml TE. Actually I went a few days with 0 TE because of the hair algae. Can you give me a little help on this please. Thanks for all you have done.


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## chiahead

I just tested my parameters
kh=4
gh=8
Ca=25ppm
Po4=1.5
Kno3=5ppm

My Nitrate finally went down after 2 weeks of DS dosing. Why would my Po4 go up from my last test 5 days ago though?


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## Edward

Hi chiahead,

why are you dosing Ca? Eco should give you plenty. Good Ca is 20 - 30 ppm.
Your Mg of 20 ppm is too high. Should be 5 ppm. Do you dose any MgSO4? 
Is CO2 30 - 40 ppm?
What kind of TE do you use?

Because your NO3 is down, need to stop dosing DS and go for 3ml SS Solution and 3ml PF Solution. This will add K and NO3. 

Edward


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## chiahead

I was dosing Ca for a few reasons. FIrst I was noticing that deficiency I stated and because my Ca/Mg balance was too much Mg so I thought if I dosed Ca it would help. Between the Eco and Onxy sand I should have plenty Ca, but my Gh went up from 5 to 8 in 5 days and my Ca stayed the same at 25ppm or so. I do not dose any Mg at all. My Co2 should be ok- it is about 47 or so. The Te solution I am using is your Te formula, with the CSM+B. Should I be adding the standard solution which has Phosphate in my tank when the phosphates are still too high at 1.5ppm?


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## Edward

Hi chiahead,

usually Eco leaks Ca and Onyx leaks Mg. You will have to flush the aquarium more often to maintain the Ca and Mg under control. 
Deficiency pictures are confusing, same symptoms may be caused by number of reasons.
The 1ml of TE sounds about right.
Your PO4 is 1.5 ppm, if you want to lower it, you can dose 3ml PF and 3ml DS for a week.

Edward


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## ruben

Is it possible to use NH4 instead of NO3? I´ve been using a mixture similar to yours (i was low on PO4) but Amonnium sulphate instead of nitrates, NH3 is 0.2 - 0.5 ppm, fish don't seem to matter, plant growth is very good, some minor problems with green algae.


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## Edward

ruben said:


> Is it possible to use NH4 instead of NO3?


Hi ruben,

here is the answer


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## Andrey

I went through this post several times.
I could not find any "target" here.
Edward, could you please post the target figures, which I could treat as a "Good" ones?
I would like to know the level of:
NO3
PO4
Ca
Mg
CO2
and maybe KH together with GH

otherwise it is difficult to understand where the good dosing is, at least to me.

Thank you in advance,
Andrey


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## discus

Andrey said:


> Edward, could you please post the target figures, which I could treat as a "Good" ones?
> I would like to know the level of:
> NO3
> PO4
> Ca
> Mg
> CO2
> and maybe KH together with GH
> Andrey


Hi Andrey

Sorry for the delay in answering and I know I'm not Edward but ill take a crack at this.

NO3---- 10 to 20 
PO4---- 0.5 to 1.0 
Ca----- 20 to 30 
Mg----- 1 to 5
CO2---- 20 to 30

Your KH is dependant on your CO2 levels and pH and your GH is a function of your Ca and Mg. You may want to take a look at the articles posted in the following link they help in explaining many of your questions and provide graphs also.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=4241

the links to the articles are in blue

And ask questions

Thanks 
Discus


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## Edward

*Please see the new version PPS v.2005*

Thank you
Edward


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