# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Spray Bar and CO2 Dissipation



## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

Yet another CO2 related question.

I've finally set up my system, filled the tank, and started the filter. Came into a slight hiccup with the Automated CO2 kit I bought. Seems I received two 7.01 pH Solution packets and no 4.01. Which means I can't calibrate the monitor until I get some.

I decided not to wait and go ahead and start flowing CO2 to the tank while the shipment of 4.01 is on it's way. I let it run overnight as I have yet to put in fish or plants.(Keeping the light off however until I get the plants). My pH test kit only goes up to 7.6 and our tap water is much more alkaline than that. I tested this morning and still didn't see a drop in the test kit below the 7.6 mark.

Here is my question. Knowing that surface turbulance dissipates CO2 from the system, I went ahead and mounted the spraybar low; near the bottom of the tank. Figuring that mounting it near the top and creating surface turbulance is kind of counter productive to injecting the CO2 in the tank.

I'm figuring the plants will provide enough oxygem into the water to eliminate the need for the surface turbulance/airation. Knowing of course that too much CO2 can adversely effect my charges over night if I'm not carefuly.

Where are you folks mounting your spray bars? Are my assumptions here correct? Any suggests/potential problems you see outside of what I've already noted?

As always,...your imput is much appreciated. I will be posting pictures soon of the process and the end result.

Marcus


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

Yet another CO2 related question.

I've finally set up my system, filled the tank, and started the filter. Came into a slight hiccup with the Automated CO2 kit I bought. Seems I received two 7.01 pH Solution packets and no 4.01. Which means I can't calibrate the monitor until I get some.

I decided not to wait and go ahead and start flowing CO2 to the tank while the shipment of 4.01 is on it's way. I let it run overnight as I have yet to put in fish or plants.(Keeping the light off however until I get the plants). My pH test kit only goes up to 7.6 and our tap water is much more alkaline than that. I tested this morning and still didn't see a drop in the test kit below the 7.6 mark.

Here is my question. Knowing that surface turbulance dissipates CO2 from the system, I went ahead and mounted the spraybar low; near the bottom of the tank. Figuring that mounting it near the top and creating surface turbulance is kind of counter productive to injecting the CO2 in the tank.

I'm figuring the plants will provide enough oxygem into the water to eliminate the need for the surface turbulance/airation. Knowing of course that too much CO2 can adversely effect my charges over night if I'm not carefuly.

Where are you folks mounting your spray bars? Are my assumptions here correct? Any suggests/potential problems you see outside of what I've already noted?

As always,...your imput is much appreciated. I will be posting pictures soon of the process and the end result.

Marcus


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## DJ (Nov 26, 2003)

Marcus,

FOr a planted tank you will hardly need any water movement, all you need is some water movement to avoid layering (cold water below, hot water at surface) and doing so you will automatically ensure that there is enough water movement to aid O2 diffusion overnight.

I'd suggest to remove the spray bar entirely and (if neccesary using 1x90 or even better 2x 45 degree elbows) point the filter exhaust in the right direction. If you filter intake is near the bottom the right direction would be nearly horizontal, slightly moving downward with the exhaust at 2/3 of the tank height.

DJ


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Spray bar or not, as long as it's below the surface and not creating too much surface agitation you should be fine with CO2 levels. The rest is all about proper circulation, avoiding dead spots and bringing suspended matter as close as possible to the intake rather than letting it fall to the bottom. In one tank I use the spraybar in the traditional position only under the water surface, in another tank I have cut it and placed it as such:









I prefer this method over the first but it's pretty much the same as just having an elbow on the output and sending the water towards the other end.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

Thanks for the replies.

After batting this issue around some, I ended up moving the spraybar to around 3in. below the water line and angling the outflow toward the surface. This has given me some surface movement and eliminated some of the surface scum that I immediately had with my initial planting.

Two comments: Interestingly enough, I got my pH monitor hooked up last night and the initial reading on the tank was 7.2 I have the monitor set to 6.8-7.0 and so Co2 continued to flow. I also put in peat granules into my canister yesterday morning to help soften the water and lower the buffering capacity a bit to help bring down the pH more quickly to my prefered range.

Interesting thing is, by the time I shut off the lights last night my PH had climbed to 7.3 I thought "Ok, plants are consuming CO2 and giving off O2 so so understandable for some flux upswing. But by this morning the pH had climbed to 7.6 Not something I expected since overnight the plants and the two dwarf gouramis that I'm starting the tank with should have been giving off CO2 right along with my CO2 injection. Stumped there. I added some iron supplement last night but I wouldn't figure this would have bumped the pH.

I also did some testing last night.
CO2: 12-14ppm (Have been told safe range is 5-15)
Iron: 0ppm. So I dosed with Flourfe and will monitor.

Second comment is. Man Fluval has gone downhill since I last purchased one. I am thoroughly disatisfed with my 304. Upon pulling it out of the box a few days ago to set it up I was amazed at how many of the parts had gone cheap plastic. Back in 98 when I bought my 303 it had a good lexan-style casing and all top quality flexible tubing and elbows. Now everthing is molded plastic, including the pipes and fittings.

Add to this the fact that although the unit stays dry and leak free while in operation under the tank, when I go to pick it up to move it closer to the door so I can disconnect the hoses, any pressure to the outside bottom half of the unit causes water to push through the rubber o-ring seal on the canister and it leaks like a mother. I checked and the o-ring is installed correctly and it works fine..as long as I don't try to move it. Ugg. Talk about worrying over your tank. That thing I just don't trust right now. Add to that, the suction self starter that is suppose to pull water through the hoses to prime the unit doesn't work for doodoo.

Well...so goes the saga. Sounds like my 90 bucks was wasted and I'll be upgrading to an Eheim when I decide the worry isn't worth the wait.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Marcus, I can't help you with the fluval as I don't have one myself but I'd strongly suggest removing any peat from your tank. You should be using CO2 only to bring down your PH. If you need to soften the water (what is your KH by the way?) do so with some RO water. Using peat will throw off your PH/CO2 calculations. I suggest you bring CO2 levels to 15-30ppm and aim for a KH of 4-6 if possible. Most times it's just not worth constantly bringing down the KH to meet some "supposedly ideal" PH level. It's far easier and less stressful on the fish if you simply get them used to your tap water. The plants won't care that much about KH if it's within a reasonable range.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

My current KH is 7. pH at lunch was 7.7 Still going up. I've honestly never seen this before. Only thing I can figure is maybe the piece of drift wood I placed in the tank is causing the rise. I put it in during lunch yesterday...but generally believed that most driftwood pieces would lower the pH, not raise.

First piece of driftwood I put in there when I initially set up the tank was taken from the same style and the same pile at the store. So that lends me to believe it isn't the driftwood.

Who knows...I'll be watching it though. I also removed the peat per your suggestion. I really only placed it in there to bring down the ph faster, and intended to remove it so that it wouldn't kill my buffering capacity.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Marcus,

First of all I think a KH of 7 is just fine, I wouldn't worry about it at all. With this value you should be aiming for a PH of 7.0 using CO2 alone. Aim for an early morning value of 7.0, this should be the lowest peak of the day, during the day it will rise slightly due to plant uptake but not a great deal. If you are having problems getting the PH down to 7.0 then you need to look at a couple things, your bubble rate, method of diffusion and CO2 loss due to surface agitation. You mentioned you faced the spraybar up towards the surface, I suggest you face it parallel with the surface, a little movement is all that is needed to keep the surface scum dissolved. A couple of questions that may help us get a better idea:

What is your method of diffusing CO2 in the tank?

How many bubbles per minute are you pumping?

How big is your tank?

How many plants do you have in the tank?

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

Alright, let's get down to specifics.

Feb. 13th Stats.

KH:7
pH:Morning 7.7 , Evening 7.8
CO2: 14ppm
Fe:0ppm
No3:0ppm
CO2 bubbles per minute: 30-31

Diffuser is the Reactor 1000. 175wpg via Metal Halide 6500k bulb. 58gal Show Tank. Fluval 304 tank. Milwaukee pH monitor.

Plants
Ludwigia repens : 3 stems
Rotala rotundifolia : 3 stems
Egeria densa 10 bunches : 25-30 stalks
Echinodorus bleheri : 1
Anubias Barteri var. nana : 2

The Egeria is just to take care of algea problems. This is an ugly plant in my opinion and something I will change out as the tank gets established. I also have a 12 lot of Glosso on the way, with some Negea and one other plant that I can't remember off the top of my head but it's a red leafed beauty.

I have the PMDD elements on the way as well, although I will dose each seperately rather than mix them.

Fish: 6 Siamese Algae eaters and two dwarf gouramis. Nothing else will go in until the plants take hold and take off.


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

My pH seems to have stabilized over the last couple of days.

7.8 in the morning, 7.9 in the evening.

That is a bit too high for my liking so I will be doing a waterchange this week that will include some RO water mixed with declorinated tap.

I've seen some good growth with the E. Densa, but this plant is pretty bomb proof. I have also seen a couple of new leaves from the Echinodorus sword. A little visible growth from the Ludwigia, and Rotala. Nothing notable from the Anubias however.

My desire to bring down the pH revolves around wanting this tank to display some South American Dwarves that are pH sensitive. Also a lower pH than the high sevens will also help with the growth of the plants.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Marcus, if it's for the cichlids fine, but the plants won't benefit from softer water, yours is near perfect. What they will benefit from is a higher CO2 concentration, and this is why your PH is not down to 7.0. I would concentrate in increasing your CO2 level more than lowering your KH (for the plants that is). At the moment you have around 3ppm of CO2 judging from your KH and PH.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

I checked the CO2 during lunch and it seems to test out around 12ppm. Now, mind you this is with a drop style test kit and color check. We all know those are subject to a vast variance but this does conform to the rest of the tests I've made with the kit.

I upped the bubble count to 70-80 per minute. This seems pretty high to me, but I wasn't getting any significant change to pH after having it at 30-31 bpm. So hopefully this helps. Will also be dropping a water change in the next couple days as it's been about a week now since I set it all up.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

If you are using a CO2 test kit, unless it's an expensive one, I'd suggest using PH and KH to measure CO2, these two tests seem to be more accurate. With a KH of 7 and CO2 of 12ppm, your PH should have been around 7.2.

If raising the CO2 bubble rate does nothing then I'd suspect something is not working right in the diffuser. If you are diffusing most of the CO2 in the water correctly, you should definetly see a change in PH/CO2 going from 30 to 80 bubbles per minute. Try to reduce surface agitation slightly too.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## Marcus Desaul (Feb 3, 2004)

Well, the pH finally lowered. Got home from work and it was 7.4 I slowed the bubble rate some so that it would slow down the change so I wouldn't harm the fish, but I am very happy now that it has finally turned the corner.

Thanks for your help Giancarlo. I'll be posting progress on the tank as things come together.


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