# NP goldfish tank - is it possible?!



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I've been reading through all the previous threads this evening, and one particular thread about the energy use and environmental impacts of our (non El Natural) tanks got me thinking about my goldfish tank. It is far from high tech, but I have a massive canister filter and aerators running on the tank constantly, and since setting up my 20 gallon El Natural guppy tank (which has been an absolute joy - I love being able to see the emergent plants and the lilies at the top) I've been thinking about ways that I could convert the goldfish tank to a NPT. I've read and re-read Betty's threads and articles about her beautiful 55 gallon goldie tank, and while I am planning to plant out my goldfish tank (using clay pots, because they are such messy diggers) I keep wondering if there is more I can do to make the tank natural.

Do you think it is possible to get rid of the canister filter altogether? Hypothetically, if I had a very very heavily planted goldfish tank, and did, say... 50% water changes once a month (currently I am doing 50% once a week - this seems an insane use of water, even if I do use it on my garden, and definitely does not constitute a balanced environment) do you think I would be able to take off the filter? Would water changes once a month be too much, or too little?

Also, I currently have two bubble wands running on the tank (forgot to mention - this is a 35 gallon tank, if that is useful to anyone)... if I had all of those wonderful oxygenating plants in the tank, would I be able to gradually reduce the air flow, and eventually get rid of the bubble wands too? Or is this simply not possible with these big messy goldfish?

ALSO (so sorry this is so long) I would really like to make this goldfish tank open topped - I have become so fond of the 20 gallon open top one, it just adds an entirely different element to the tank... and I have a sort of plan for getting rid of the hood, but would like to know what you guys think.

The tank is in a bright room, but not against a window so it gets no sunlight whatsoever. Currently it has a double tube 2 foot light fixture in the hood (which has very poor reflectors - I was thinking of adding foil)... which adds up to about 1 watt per gallon (not really even that, since they don't run the whole length of the tank). I was thinking of getting rid of this light and adding three 3-ft fluorescent tubes, which might get me to.. what.. 2 - 2.5 watts per gallon? HOWEVER, I thought, since I'd like to have an open top tank, why don't I simply get rid of the hood entirely, and instead put a shelf on the wall above the goldfish tank. That way I could have my lights attached to the shelving, and also get rid of the hood and covers. Is this crazy? Does it have any possibility of working? I was also wondering if the glass pannel in the middle of the tank was acting as a stress bar, and if not, could I remove this without destroying my tank (the lights reflect off the glass quite a bit). Of course, I don't want to do any of this if it is to the detriment of my fish, but I'd love to hear what you guys think!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

Well, after Christmas I now find myself in the financial position to go wild with my tanks... since no one has replied I think I will just go ahead and see what happens on my goldfish tank. I'd still love opinions if anybody has any... was also considering adding a very small (undersized for the size of my tank) sponge filter, just for water movement.

Merry Christmas to all.


----------



## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

My first question would be what kind of goldfish and how many? Maybe if just ONE fancy goldfish in a 35g.

Second, although you could certainly get rid of the bubble wands, I would NEVER get rid of the canister filter. You can always angle the output to slightly ripple the surface for air exchange. You're concerned about energy consumption and you're adding more lights? I think lights use up much more watts than most filters pull.

Another thing to consider is that besides the physical volumne of the detrius the goldfish's poops produce there is also the build up of the nitrate. I believe this will be the greater challenge to manage and control. I don't really think you can do it with absolutely natural methods. To really get away from the water changes you'd need the plants growing fast enough. That way you'd be pruning and harvesting the nitrate out of this closed system by trashing plant mass instead of the water changes. The challenge and contradiction then is that if you want fast growth to "harvest" nitrate you're looking at pushing plants with high tech and pressurized CO2. Most NPT systems are slower growth because of limited CO2 that's why its not recommended to go over 2 wpg.

If you can manage to get the system running is such a way to reduce water changes 25% twice a month is better than 50% one time.

Now, since it's a holiday and I'm feeling sassy I'll play the Devil's advocate, if you really want to conserve water:
1.) Put the fish back in the river. (Just kidding!)
2.) Build a large outdoor pond with minimal stocking ratios and use the energy of the sun. (You'll be saving water and electricity.)
3.) Start taking showers every other day and wear your clothing twice before washing. There, now use what you've saved for the fish.
4.)Better yet, become a vegetarian, do you have any idea how much water meat packing plants use? A large plant can use as much as a city of people.

5.)BEST, check out tips from the professionals. Here's a website about conservation. There's a link just about water conservation.
Earth 911: recycling centers, water pollution and conservation, Earth Day

Ps. A Very Merry Christmas!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I have two fancy goldfish and two feeders. I know that they will definitely need a new tank as they grow, but the largest is three inches, and the other three are two inches, so still very small.

My idea, in getting more lights, was to get my plants to actually grow in there (because currently they do not, to the detriment of my fish) thereby doing away with the bubble wands and filter. Plus fluorescent lights are energy savers - perhaps if I were using incandescents that would push my power usage up. Also, a canister filter running 24/7 is rather different to lights that run for 10 - 12 hours.

Unfortunately building a pond currently is just not within my means. Moreover, my goldfish are fancy varieties and would not do terribly well I think. They'd be the magpie's lunch within minutes, so even if I did build a pond for the feeders, I sure couldn't for the other two - and would have a tank and a pond... way more water I think.

In regards to your other water-saving suggestions - I take very short showers, I do wear my clothes more than once before washing, when I do wash my clothes I do it on the lowest setting, I use the water from my tanks on my plants, and I am a vegetarian already. I am already quite conscious of our environmental impact, which is the reason why I'd like to go further and reduce the water usage associated with my tanks.

I thought Melis had managed to do an El Natural goldie tank? I remember reading a thread about it ages ago...


----------



## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

I think it is theoretically possible, but in practice may require you to cheat a bit.

Water Lettuce would remove the nitrates from the goldfish poop, but two problems remain:

(1) goldfish tend to eat it, or at least its roots.

(2) how much water lettuce would you need?

So, if you used a pump to exchange tank water with a large, well-lit water lettuce tank, you should have adequate filtration. You might need a 100 gallon or larger water lettuce tank though!


----------



## BiscayneBoulevard (Nov 18, 2006)

I've never seen water lettuce in Australia - apparently it is a "weed of national significance" so nobody sells it. Alas... well, I may try to just get rid of my bubble wands, redirect my spray bar and plant the tank up anyway. My nitrates always seem to be very high - would I need to remove the biological filtration or would they strike a balance with ample amounts of goldfish waste to go around?

Funny thing - whenever I turn my bubble wands off, my goldfish absolutely freak out. There are no serious effects, like gasping at the surface, but they seem to get really scared when those bubbles stop.


----------



## schaadrak (Aug 18, 2006)

What about an El Natural sump/refugium? You could even plumb it so that the output from the goldie tank could draw from underneath an under-gravel filter. That way the solid waste from the fish would get pulled into the refugium before it collected too much in your gravel. Of course you would need a very thin layer of a larger diameter gravel to minimize the waste getting trapped there and keep too large of a bacterial filter on it.

That's probably completely off target for what you want to do, but I thought I'd throw it out there.


----------



## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

One problem I just realized with water lettuce is that it likes warm water. It's the fastest easy-to-grow floating plant readily accessable in my area, so it's a natural choice for filtering tropical tanks but there are other floating plants.

Of course, the theory is that floating plants have direct access to CO2 from the atmosphere, so they can use that to pull nitrogen out of the water and grow faster than immersed plants.

I noticed that Giant duckweed grows really well in cool water, so that may work better for goldfish. Any floating plant that grows well at the temperature of the goldfish water is should do the job for you.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

There's a guy who posted here a while back that had a high tech fancy goldfish tank (high light, Co2 and water ferts) and mostly wysteria. His nitrAtes were nonexistant.

I don't know if you could get by with just plants and some soil as biological filtration in a goldie tank. a very very understocked goldie tank maybe. 

I put three small fancies in a heavily planted 55 NPT not too long ago. ended up pulling them because one was lethargic and another flipped. I kinda think it was high CO2 levels in the early morning that got em.

The plant filter/sump idea is interesting tho. Especially if they were on opposite light schedules.


----------

