# [Wet Thumb Forum]-micro/marco elements and iron



## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

after a long search i found out that i can get the folowing products: 
1. each liter - 40.5 grams of fe, 20g of mn, 10g of zn, 1.5g of cu edta and 1.1g of mo
2. each liter- 6% of fe eddha 
3. each liter- 12g of fe eddhsa, 6g of mn edta, 3g of zn edta, 0.5g of cu edta and 0.33g of mo

can i use one of this products for my tank beside the pmmd ? thanks


----------



## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

after a long search i found out that i can get the folowing products: 
1. each liter - 40.5 grams of fe, 20g of mn, 10g of zn, 1.5g of cu edta and 1.1g of mo
2. each liter- 6% of fe eddha 
3. each liter- 12g of fe eddhsa, 6g of mn edta, 3g of zn edta, 0.5g of cu edta and 0.33g of mo

can i use one of this products for my tank beside the pmmd ? thanks


----------



## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

anyone?


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

nemo,

I would love to help, but I don't know how to answer your question.

For the record, I don't use pmdd, have never used pmdd and don't encourage other people to use pmdd.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


----------



## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

Hi Roger, if you don't use PMDD then what do you use?


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I guess if you figure out the % of each element you can compare the products here:
http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.htm

I'm not sure if there are differences in the sources of these elements however. I guess the iron product is valid if you need additional iron. The other two don't look as complete as something like Flourish.

I'm not crazy about CSM+B used in the PMDD formula, I prefer to use Flourish following water changes and CSM+B only as a daily supplement in small doses (got a bag of it, might as well use it). For the macros I pretty much use the same chemicals used in the PMDD formula (KNO3, K2SO4 etc.)

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> ...if you don't use PMDD then what do you use?


Flourish Iron with either Flourish Trace or Flourish, depending on which tank I'm dosing. I also use potassium nitrate, potassium chloride and sodium phosphate, all of which are dosed once or twice a week.

"PMDD" was invented by Sears and Conlin and should only be used to refer to their dosing scheme. The stated purpose of their method is to control algae by forcing phosphate levels to 0. I found out a long time ago that I needed to dose my tanks with phosphate to keep the plants healthy and that as long as the plants were healthy algae didn't grow -- even when there was plenty of phosphate available.

Hence I don't use PMDD, and don't advise other people to use PMDD.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


----------



## Dr.T. (Jul 23, 2003)

Hey Nemo,

CSM is a common micronutrient fertilizer that is used by some to provide trace elements. Boron is not present in the commercially available form of CSM, so people add it - hence CSM + B.

As far as some of the comments you've been getting: Putting together a stock solution that contains macros is (or even sometimes micros) is not the best way to dose your tank. Most of the experienced people here (and I am not one of them







) dose there tanks depending on its particular needs. The PMDD method mixes CSM + B with several macros, and therefore makes dosing simple - no worries about making up a bunch of solutions.

In reality, however, every tank is different - depends on water, lighting, etc. So you will find lots of people that are quite against mixing stock solutions - other than those that contain micros.

Jeff (Dr.T.)
---------------------------
Tank info in profile
29 gallon tank (updated: 9/21/03)
65 gallon tank (updated: 9/21/03)


----------



## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i know a lot of people dose, i hear two sides of the story. some dose, and others feed the fish extra. what do you think about it if people just don't dose at all and just feed the fish food? is that adequate enough in your opinion(s)?


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

You can maintain planted tanks without dosing. That is something of a specialty. You might take up the question in the "El Natural" forum.

Tanks that I kept long-term fertilized only with fish waste eventually develop shortages in potassium and iron. You can use a soil substrate and probably avoid the iron problem -- at least for rooted plants. I'm less optimistic that the same approach provides a long-term solution for potassium.

Roger Miller

------------
_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Algae Grower:
> i know a lot of people dose, i hear two sides of the story. some dose, and others feed the fish extra. what do you think about it if people just don't dose at all and just feed the fish food? is that adequate enough in your opinion(s)?


That depends somewhat on the amount of light you have. At high lighting, it's not adviced to not use CO2 and fertilizers. At lower lighting it's possible to not have to fertilize at all or just a little in the way of substrate tabs. As Roger said, fish food does not provide everything you need. Fish food, water changes and some root tabs however will allow you to keep a low tech planted tank running without any problems but lighitng must not be too strong or you will run into problems.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


----------



## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

yes i am currently running into problems, definitely. in the morning, my plants are pale....but by the afternoon, they are more green after the light has been on a little while. can anyone explain this weird phenomenon?


----------



## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I don't think I have ever noticed such changes happen so quickly... I guess it must have something to do with lighting... Does light have an effect on making iron more readily available?

Giancarlo Podio


----------



## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

thanks for all the replys
im currently dosing my tanks with the pmdd without the micros and iron, which i dose seperatly and my tank looks great (at least for my opinion)
i also bought po4, but afraid to dose my tank with it ...
i wonder if someone can give me a better formula then the pmdd?


----------



## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

Algae grower,
The same happens in my tank, my plants look better in the evening. I agree with Giancarlo, it's propably the lighting. IMO it breaks down the chelates and makes more micronutrients available to plants.

150L (40G) planted tank
click here for photo
Rate my tank!


----------



## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

hi thanks mr. podio, and thanks mr. marcin. The lighting answer makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing it up! interesting isn't it?


----------



## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

by the way, nemo, your tank is not only nice looking it is AWESOME, it is the Bee's knees! GROOVY, FAR OUT! (am i missing any old slang words for cool?)


----------



## ghoster (Nov 27, 2005)

.


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I am not sure what factors light has on chelates but your reply sounds familar and I am inclined to belive it is correct. I believe oxygen is a more important factor in allowing chelats to do their thing. Chelats function much better in an anoxic (lacking oxygen)enviroment, hence the usefulness in substrates.UNless you are using an undergravel filter which I hope your not, or substrate heating, the gravel should become anoxic fairly quickly. Oxygen also allows elements like Fe2 (which is a form that plants can use) to bond with others of their kind to form Fe3,or larger molecule chains, which are to big to pass through the guard cells in plants; thus, limiting their ability to get the micro nutrients they need.

Sorry, I tend to ramble as I type but I hope this helps.

Dennis DIetz


----------



## George Willms (Jul 28, 2004)

the difference between fe2+ and fe3+ is not the size, but the charge of the molecule.

George

4 tanks: 5.5, 12, 29, and 45 gallons.

More complete tank specs in profile.


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I believe I understand what you are saying but are not Fe2+ and Fe3+ both positive ions (or is that cation, I can never remember)so what is the difference.

Dennis


----------

