# Discus in natural tank



## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

I am about to put 2 discus in an NPT tomorrow evening. Does anyone here have any experience with these in NPTs?

Is the NPT still a low maintenance arrangement or are discus a special case like goldfish?

How often do you do water changes with discus in an NPT?

Also, another thing I must decide between now and then is this:

Right now I have two pearl angelfish in one 55 gallon tank with some cardinal tetras and a cory or two. In another 55 gallon tank I have to black angels with some corys. 

How best to add the discus?

Both angel pairs are breeding pairs, but I'm not really interested in them breeding. The discus are not a breeding pair. 

1. Put them in with the pearls.
2. Move the pearls in with the blacks and have the discus in their own tank (where the pearls were) with the cardinal tetras and corys. 
3. Put the dicsus in with the blacks. 

I would prefer 1 or 2 above, but if there's a good reason to do #3, I'll consider it. The blacks are somewhat more aggressive than the pearls.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

did you check the PH, KH, & Gh on your npt?
discus are healthier in low ph & hardness.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

pH is around neutral in the tank, but these discus are used to higher than that, so they will need a drip or something to adapt them to our NPT climate. I'll have them in a 6 gallon bucket with perhaps as much as 5 gallons of water, perhaps two buckets, one for each fish. 

Ideas on doing this gradually to get them used to the more neutral pH of our tank?

I forget which is which, but one of the "h's" (KH/GH) is around 18 and the other around 3. What I do remember is that we have very little buffering capacity in our tap water. That should tell you which is which. I think it's the KH that is low. The water company aims for around a pH of 9, it comes through our tap a bit over 8, and settles down in the NPTs at around 7. 

With the discus, I would probably use our Amquel+ instead of our Genesis dechlorinator as I believe they are more sensitive to ammonia than most fish. I have both, and with most of our fish the Genesis is fine.

All nitrogen compounds are well within safe limits.


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## Troy McClure (Aug 3, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> did you check the PH, KH, & Gh on your npt?
> discus are healthier in low ph & hardness.


Not entirely true. As with most fish, those parameters have very little to do with the health of the discus. Cleanliness, *stability*, and diet will lead to healthy discus.

btw, Don, I'm selling my Tefes. There's a post in the SWOAPE forum if you're interested.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Clean water is the most important parameter. 50% change 2 to 3x per week would be ideal. 

The 55 can handle four large discus. I don't like to mix angels with discus because angels can be very territorial fish. Each discus will require at least 30 square inches of surface area per linear inch (about 180 sq inches for a 6" discus). I'd keep the discus and cards in one tank. Cards are fast moving fish during feeding time and will quickly clean up the discus mess. Maintain water temperature between 80 and 82F. 76 to 78F is fine during winter.

Plants alone will not absorb hormones secrete by fish. A tropical forest is constantly receiving fresh rain water. To minimize disease and maximize growth, you need frequent water changes.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

t2000kw said:


> pH is around neutral in the tank, but these discus are used to higher than that, so they will need a drip or something to adapt them to our NPT climate. I'll have them in a 6 gallon bucket with perhaps as much as 5 gallons of water, perhaps two buckets, one for each fish.
> 
> Ideas on doing this gradually to get them used to the more neutral pH of our tank?
> 
> ...


I don't drip feed my discus even though the local water is 8.2pH with 10KH (hard water with high buffer capability). If the tank has been stable for at least 6 months, then change 70% of the water after a complete gravel vac. Also clean out the filter. Equalize the temperature and add the fish. I'd keep the thermostat at 83F for the first two months, then lower the tank's temperature to 80-81F range.

The cycle bacteria in the tank will take care of ammonia. The key to fish introduction is to reduce the stress level to maintain the fish's immune system. Move all the other fish to the other tank if you're afraid of disease.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I think you are best with option 2 from above.
I think the angels will out compete the discus for food and that will make the acclimation harder.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

fortunately, the water parameters between where they came from and where they are going are quite close. It won't take long to acclimate them to the new tank.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

furballi said:


> Clean water is the most important parameter. 50% change 2 to 3x per week would be ideal.
> Plants alone will not absorb hormones secrete by fish. A tropical forest is constantly receiving fresh rain water. To minimize disease and maximize growth, you need frequent water changes.


I dont agree with this. I have 2 very healthy discus along with rummy nose and a few catfish in a 450 L NPT, and I do not need to water change at all, just top up. As long as you dont over feed meaty food, and over stock with plants, ammonia should be pretty much 0. I have also experienced healthy discus at a PH of 7.5-7.8. Stable conditions are optimal.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Grayum said:


> I dont agree with this. I have 2 very healthy discus along with rummy nose and a few catfish in a 450 L NPT, and I do not need to water change at all, just top up. As long as you dont over feed meaty food, and over stock with plants, ammonia should be pretty much 0. I have also experienced healthy discus at a PH of 7.5-7.8. Stable conditions are optimal.


The discus in the tank without WC will not have the vibrant color, size, and life expectancy like the one with frequent WC. Have you raised baby discus? Have you compared the growth rate of young discus in a tank with 25% water change/week vs 50% water change 3x/week? Most tropical fish live in streams with a constant flow of clean water every second of the day.

By your standard, living in a high-rise building (closed-loop) is perfectly healthy because the air quality meets OSHA regulation?


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

furballi said:


> The discus in the tank without WC will not have the vibrant color, size, and life expectancy like the one with frequent WC. Have you raised baby discus? Have you compared the growth rate of young discus in a tank with 25% water change/week vs 50% water change 3x/week? Most tropical fish live in streams with a constant flow of clean water every second of the day.
> 
> By your standard, living in a high-rise building (closed-loop) is perfectly healthy because the air quality meets OSHA regulation?


good metaphor. i got a good chuckle when i read it 

I agree with WC, but a 50% WC 2-3x a week seems excessive unless you're raising fry correct?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

ezeke1 said:


> good metaphor. i got a good chuckle when i read it
> 
> I agree with WC, but a 50% WC 2-3x a week seems excessive unless you're raising fry correct?


50% each week is aquate for fully mature fish. Those that are still growing will benefit from the additional fresh WC. Fish secrete anti-growth hormone in tight quarter (aquarium). Clean tap water promotes faster growth and larger fish.

With 50% weekly change, young cardinals will max out at 1.6" (not including tail fin). With 50% WC 3x/week, they will hit 1.8" in shorter period of time. Life expectancy is around 5-6 years if you change at least 50% each week. My cards tend to pick up disease around that age. None will die due to old age.

I'm not sure if more WC will extend the life of cards. Should know for sure next year when a few fish will celebrate their 7th BD.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

I do not agree at all. for one thing, 2 discus in 450 liters of water is hardly cramped conditons, and really couldnt be compared to high rise living. Also, I think you might be in the wrong part of the forum, as 50% water changes 2-3 times a week is not in line with the ideals associated with a NPT. 

Also, I do not agree with feeding disucus as much as possible to get bright colors and huge growth. I dont think this would be healthy for any animal, and as long as my fish are healthy and happy, I do not see the need to induce the type of stress associated with gigantic water changes (200 liters every seond day), not to mention this would be inconsiderate to the enviroment especially living in australia. If these type of water changes needed to be done this often, I would leave the hobby.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

furballi said:


> If the tank has been stable for at least 6 months, then change 70% of the water after a complete gravel vac. Also clean out the filter.


The OP stated that this was an NPT tank, in which case it would be undesirable to do a complete gravel vac or water change and he may not even have a filter. Judging by the answers t2000kw, I would guess that you were right in your original assessment that discus are a special case along with goldfish - higher maintenance than most NPTs, maybe not even worth it if the fish are your main focus.

Personally, I would give them a try, as Grayum is doing, in a true NPT.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Grayum said:


> I do not agree at all. for one thing, 2 discus in 450 liters of water is hardly cramped conditons, and really couldnt be compared to high rise living. Also, I think you might be in the wrong part of the forum, as 50% water changes 2-3 times a week is not in line with the ideals associated with a NPT.
> 
> Also, I do not agree with feeding disucus as much as possible to get bright colors and huge growth. I dont think this would be healthy for any animal, and as long as my fish are healthy and happy, I do not see the need to induce the type of stress associated with gigantic water changes (200 liters every seond day), not to mention this would be inconsiderate to the enviroment especially living in australia. If these type of water changes needed to be done this often, I would leave the hobby.


Some aquarists prefer big discus with bright colors. Any proof that the large water change creates stress? Why do baby fish grow much faster and larger with frequent feedings and clean water? If you're happy with stunted discus, then that's your choice. However, you're spreading BS when you claim that discus don't need frequent feedings and water changes.

I'm sure you'll do okay in a 10' x 10' jail. Free food and shelter, plus a super stable environment, 24/7.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Okay, this is getting interesting.

Let me ask you a question. Why would I do water changes? I have zero nitrates, the supposed cause of "stunted fish", and all other parameters are zero. But lets get philosphical about this for a second. 

Your statement about a jail cell, and the "Unnatural state" of my... naturally planted tank... is interesting. Wouldnt all fish tanks be unnatural? Taking a fish from its native enviroment and confining it to a predetermined space is unnatural no matter how many water changes are being performed, so your comment makes little to no sense. Your metaphor also does not make any sense. Placing a human in a 10x10 cell, over feeding as much meaty foods as possible to get the most growth as fast as possible, and then contsantly hosing the feces from the cell seems a bit strange.

Im sure you will say that in nature, freshwater is constantly flowing, but tell me this: What do you think filters this water as it passes over humic substances, rotting fish, feces, larger decaying animals, and all other kinds of organic waste on its journey from the mountains to the ocean? If you had read in to these things, as most people using the el natural forum have done, you would know that fast growing plants fliter these streams. These conditions are replicated in the naturally planted aquarium IN PLACE of large water changes that, if not performed at the exact same temperature as existing water, STRESS fish and bring on diseases like white spot. This is evident when transporting wild caught discus.

As I mentioned before, this is the El natural forum, and the question was asked about discus in a NPT, something you dont seem to have any experience with, so therefore are not able to give a decent reasonable response to. In this case I think it is "dangerous" for YOU to be giving advice in a NPT forum. I don't think its fair for someone with no experience with NPT's to call my experience "BS". Perhaps you should read Diana Walstads book, it might open your eyes and stop you from making ignorant comments. 

It is ignorant to be this wasteful and careless with a resource as precious as water. In Australia we are suffering from extreme drought condtions. 50% water changes 3 times a week would be inconsiderate for the future of everyone in this country.Hopefully more people will research their hobby (as most have done in this forum) and make educated decisions.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Proof of discus living the good life!










tank build http://www.aquariumoutlet.com.au/aquablog


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Grayum said:


> Okay, this is getting interesting.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. Why would I do water changes? I have zero nitrates, the supposed cause of "stunted fish", and all other parameters are zero. But lets get philosphical about this for a second.
> 
> ...


Contact any discus breeder and ask them how much water change they do per day. They certainly would know how to balance heathly fish and profit. You are living on FANTASY ISLAND if you believe that low nitrate is a good indication of high quality water! What other parameters have you measured? How accurate is your reference solution? Can your test detect anti-growth hormones?

So what is the major difference between nature and the home aquarium? One word...*DILUTION*. Calculate the number of fish per square inch or gal in the wild vs. an average aquarium. Get the picture? No plant can COMPLETELY purify the water. That's the job of the sun (evaporation). You would know this if you have a scientific background or have analyzed water using sophisticated multi-million $ equipment.

If I use your logic, then I can take radioactive waste and put it in the middle of the amazon. Plenty of plants and bacteria to digest this stuff, right?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Grayum said:


> Proof of discus living the good life!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would never rely on those cheap 50 cent thermometers to check for the tank temperature. Most are accurate to within +/-3F. A quality scientific thermometer is rated at +/-0.5F. The newer Ebo instruction specifically warn again immersing below the top of the calibration dial. It's also best to place the heater in a vertical direction, next to the intake of the filter for greater water circulation and more accurate temperature control.

Hey, but I don't know squat about fish and aquarium.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

furballi said:


> So what is the major difference between nature and the home aquarium? One word...*DILUTION*. Calculate the number of fish per square inch or gal in the wild vs. an average aquarium. Get the picture? No plant can COMPLETELY purify the water. That's the job of the sun (evaporation). You would know this if you have a scientific background or have analyzed water using sophisticated multi-million $ equipment.


fuballi, the whole theory of the Walstad Natural Planted Tank is based on the fact that the plants are filtering the water for us and we are not relying on dilution _at all._ There are plenty on this forum who have had tanks running for many years with minimal water changes and little to no other filtration.
Granted, they are probably not raising show discus, but the tanks do work. No one is saying you know squat about fishkeeping, but it does appear that you are giving advice on NPT's in this forum without having read the book or subscribing to it's principles in the least.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

I wouldn't contact a discus breeder to ask them how a discus will do in a NPT (the original question asked in the post). I don't think the OP had "profit" in mind with this setup. 

I have had a search for your "anti growth hormones" excreated by fish and have yet to find a reference to it. Nitrates WILL have this effect, and in smaller aquariums will be found in higher concentrations.

I'm not sure how the sun would purify water, evaporation of pure water would concentrate pollutants in the water (more evident in marine tanks). Furthermore, NPT's are meant to get as much natural sunlight as possible as a light source for photosynthesis, not evaporative measures.

At no point did I say you knew nothing about aquariums, but its obvious you have no clue about NPTs and should not post your obviously unnatural methods in the el natural section of the forum. Our tanks do not rely on "multi million dollar" equipment, constant water changes and chemicals to balance them.

You should really stop with your pathetic metaphors, I may not have a background in science, but I do have one in english, and they don't make any sense. We are talking about pollutants that are already present in nature being cleaned by plants that are alredy there... not radioactive material.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Grayum said:


> I wouldn't contact a discus breeder to ask them how a discus will do in a NPT (the original question asked in the post). I don't think the OP had "profit" in mind with this setup.
> 
> I have had a search for your "anti growth hormones" excreated by fish and have yet to find a reference to it. Nitrates WILL have this effect, and in smaller aquariums will be found in higher concentrations.
> 
> ...


The OP specifically asked about the water change interval. If you want to religiously abide by NTP's principles, then fine. My number one priority is to raise beautiful discuss with the best color and size for a specific tank size.

Cram a bunch of baby fish into a tank and use a combination of plants and filters to keep the nitrate level at 0 ppm. Want to bet that none of these fish will approach the ideal full-grown size?

As for the dilution, lakes and streams merge into rivers...blah, blah, blah, blah. So there is no radioactive material in the water? OK...my bad, you have a degree in Literature.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

t2000kw - Here's an old post from someone who was keeping discus in an NPT, with comments from Diana included.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/20880-wet-thumb-forum-water-changes-discus.html

At the time she was a bit skeptical about the anti growth hormones that discus gave off. I wonder if she has changed her mind since? Anyway, if you're still following this thread, I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Cindy


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

Hmmm, now my computer won't link to it. If yours doesn't either, just type in "Discus" in the advanced search, under "Titles only" andy you'll see it.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

furballi said:


> Cram a bunch of baby fish into a tank and use a combination of plants and filters to keep the nitrate level at 0 ppm.
> Want to bet that none of these fish will approach the ideal full-grown size?


He's not cramming a bunch of baby fish!!! He's moving two discus into an establishied 55g. NPT. You really like to argue, don't you . . . .


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

dymndgyrl said:


> He's not cramming a bunch of baby fish!!! He's moving two discus into an establishied 55g. NPT. You really like to argue, don't you . . . .


I provide FACTS. Doesn't matter if it's one discus. Water changes dilute impurities that are not used by plants. This is beneficial to all fish.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I think that both positions are correct. It depends on what the discus keeper is trying to accomplish.

The commercial breeder wants to raise a large number of discus fry to market size in the shortest possible time. He also probably wants to enhance his reputation by exhibiting large, colorful fish. He may have space constraints.

His fish, particularly fry, are kept at comparatively high densities and heavily fed. The mid-sized and adult fish are also kept at higher densities. Frequent water changes, maybe even running water, are needed to control the high levels of waste.

The commercial breeder would find planted tanks to be a waste of space and time.

The hobbyist has different goals. Often he doesn't care if his fish reproduce. He does not necessarily want to grow very large fish, and as long as they are healthy and attractive, that's enough for him. He will often have planted tanks, and many times these will be NPT.

If he is conscientious he will not overstock his tanks. That means that water changes will be few and far between. He will manage his tanks not to maximize the number and size of the fish he produces, but instead to maintain a healthy and attractive aquatic environment.

It would seem that "furballi" was more in the "breeders" camp, and his comments reflect that. If he were a commercial breeder he'd probably be a success. "Grayum", on the other hand, seems to be a hobbyist and an NPT one to boot. I'd bet that he will be successful also, and his two discus will live long, happy, and healthy lives together with their tankmates.

Good luck to all!

Bill


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