# Problems with my 30 Gal...



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok, so many of you know about my 30 Gal NPT. Been set up now for about eight months. Fish are doing well though plant growth has slowed. My crypts haven't been growing much since removing the large sword a couple of months ago. Recently, I've noticed my java fern is doing really badly. I finally decided to test the water and here's what the results are...

pH- too low to measure. Perhaps around 5, maybe lower....
NO3- 0
PO4- 4ppm
GH- 5ppm
KH- 0 - 1 ppm

Could the pH and the KH be contributing to condition of the java fern (i've posted a couple pics below)? Also, should I begin adding Epsom Salt and Calcium Chloride as per the article here? Will doing this also increase the pH? Any other ideas to naturally bring up the pH? Perhaps frequent water changes? My water is quite hard and alkaline.

Here're the pics of the java ferns:



















Thanks in advanced for your input....

-ricardo


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## Catastrophi (May 23, 2006)

Wow your ph is really WAY to low. I'm guessing theres no fish in there?


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Actually, there are... Six angelfish, a female betta, a pair of guppies and two clown loaches. All seem to be doing very well...

-ricardo


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## javalee (May 8, 2006)

Hi Ricardo,

Hmmm...isn't it interesting, the mysterious chemistry of a natural tank! Isn't this a situation where Diana's idea of oyster grit or cuttlebone would work well? Since your pH is sooo low, the stuff should dissolve pretty well and quickly. Plus, you would have the benefit of a long-term source of carbonate in the tank.

I can tell you that adding epsom salts and CaCl2 has gradually _lowered_ my pH. My guess is that the Ca and Mg are precipitating with carbonate out of solution (just a guess!). Plus, your GH is in a pretty good range right now, and I think it would be hard on your fish to have really high GH (after the addition of Ca and Mg) with a reallly low KH.

Maybe some small serial water changes wouldn't be bad if it's been a long time. That would probably bring the pH right away, and the grit or cuttlebone addition could keep the pH up in the future. That said, natural planted tanks can pull some chemistry surprises! Glad to hear that your fish are doing ok.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks for the tips Lee. Intersted to hear about your exp. dosing Ca and Mg. You know, funny thing is, I do have cuttlebone in this tank! I should probably look into adding more. I think I'll start with that and water changes. What about baking soda? Any thoughts on that? Will that help bring up the KH and/or pH? Will it precipitate out anyway?

You know, I had A LOT of large vals in there before, maybe they broke down all the KH for their CO2 needs? Just a thought....

-ricardo


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Just a bit of warning, I have read many, many posts on different forums of people killing their fish by trying to "correct" their water chemistry. Please adjust things gradually.

Baking soda will raise your KH, which will raise your pH. I would either add baking soda in small amounts, say 1/8 tsp every other day until you get your pH where you want it OR do water changes of 10% every few days.

Good luck


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I would go with the baking soda routine, I used it on my tank which had a KH of 0 and now its right where I want it and easy to adjust. Raising your alkalinity will also raise your PH which would be very desirable in your case.

By the way 0-1ppm KH is not very alkaline water, its actually very VERY low, GH of 5ppm is also very soft!! I'm wondering if you maybe ment Degrees of hardness instead of PPM. If you really do mean PPM though you should probably add some Ca and Mg because you dont have much.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

So what's the KH of your tap water?

Are you sure GH is in ppm instead of dh?

In a 30 gallon tank, 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda should raise KH by 1dh (about 17.9ppm). With your pH so low, you probably won't see KH increase at first because the bicarbonates will get used up buffering acids. I think since everyone is doing ok, I'd add .5 tsp once a day to gradually bring pH back up. Predissolve in tank water and make sure it disperses well in the tank. I don't think I'd do shells until you get pH up because you can't control how fast they dissolve.


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## LunchBox (Jun 9, 2006)

you could start adding crushed coral either in a bag in your filter (if you have one) or in a corner of the tank near some water flow to raise the pH as well. Like everyone else said gradual will be better so add a little at a time 

good luck!


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions! First off, I apologize, I did mean to list the KH and GH as dH, not ppm. Although, I got no reading for the KH so it could very well be 0 ppm, and with my incredibly low pH, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm gonna go the baking soda route as it is cheap and I have some at home. .5 tsp./day until my KH increases. What should my target KH range be. I think I'll also add some cuttlebone to the substrate to help stabilize things over the long run.

I also plan on doing more water changes, maybe once a month. The KH from my tap is about 9 - 12 dKH so that should also help keep things in balance a little more. 

Thanks again for all your suggestions!

-ricardo


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

You're getting many good suggestions, and it sounds like you're on the right track. 

I would add baking soda in small amounts (dissolved in water first) until you can register a decent pH (6.5-7) and KH (2 or greater). Even if you just get the KH to 2, your Java Fern will be better off.

Adding a source of calcium and magnesium probably wouldn't hurt.

I've had a few tanks go acidic when the plant growth couldn't (low light, no soil, slow-growing plants) balance the fish load.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I find it strange that your tank KH is so low when your water KH is so high. Did you use RO water at some point? KH does not noticeably get used up in a tank (it does dissipate via carbonic acid --> CO2 but VERY slowly). How sure are you that your test kit is accurate?

Also your java fern looks like it has been bitten/chewed on rather then a nutrient deficiency, i say this because of a few things: 

First the pattern of holes looks rather uneven - it covers both new and old leaves. Usually a deficiency will create distinct patterns of necrosis in leaves.

Second: java fern is a very slow grower compared with stem plants. So by this reasoning any sort of deficiency in your tank would show up first in the hygrophilia that is right behind the java fern and in your other stem plants.

So far your stems look fine, so the java fern's appearance should be due to something physical. It looks rather like pleco marks, though it could be the angel fish. Angels tend to clean an area before spawning there, sometimes this cleaning behavior can be excessive and cause leaf damage.

If you want to add more nutrients to the tank i would start with the NO3. Raise that to 15-20ppm or your plants will start to show nitrogen deficiency. As far as the Gh, i don't think you need more since a quick water change will add enough (as your water is moderately hard). KH i suggest you add at least 2-3º hardness. But do not try to change the pH, it will most likely end in disaster, plus angel fish love acidic soft water like you have. It is used to get them into breeding mood


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I would argue against adding nitrates to this tank. Nitrogen deficiency is indicated by yellow leaves- both young and old leaves. Judging from the color of the leaves in your picture, I seriously doubt that your tank is nitrogen deficient. 

While nitrogen may be deficient in high-tech tanks with CO2 injection, it is highly improbable that nitrogen would be deficient in a natural tank. And if nitrogen deficiency is the problem, the El Naturale solution is to just feed the fish more.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Haha, yea forgot that this was the El Natural part of the forum where everything comes from the substrate. 

I do not think his plants are nitrogen deficient either, just warning of what might happen if it went on long term (in a non-El Natural tank woops!).


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks all for your comments... I would guess that one of the reasons for the disparity in KH btw. my tap water and tank water is that this tank is only topped off once or twice a month. The water is almost never changed so there wouldn't be any addition of new tap water to the tank, really. At least not enough to balance out the KH.

I'm curious about the possibility of it being eaten... I wonder though, if that's the case, why is it only this plant that's being munched on as opposed to some of the tastier plants like the sword? Also, it's only this one plant that has this browning... if my bristlenose was eating plants wouldn't it eat others too? I suppose the spawning is possible, but I don't think the angels are mature enough yet, but I'll def. sit by the tank and see if I can observe any spawning behavior.

So I guess I'm left w/ several things to do: not to add NO3, observe for any fish munching on the plants and keep adding baking soda... 

I'll keep ya'll posted on the progress.

-ricardo


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## triple red (Oct 27, 2005)

not enough nitrate....prune off the crappy leaves....this will casue the fern to send out new ones


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

triple red said:


> not enough nitrate....prune off the crappy leaves....this will casue the fern to send out new ones


Just b/c there's no nitrogen in the water column doesn't automatically mean that there's not enough N for the plants. This is a soil based tank so there's PLENTY of N in the substrate.....

-ricardo


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## triple red (Oct 27, 2005)

ok....the ferns not in the substrate though.... the only reason i said what i said was because i had a very healthy java in my tank and it started lookin like yours...so i dosed more nitrate....and the fern started to grow faster and alot nicer.....anyway...im sorry i butted in...i didnt realize that you guys didnt dose anything to the water column....
good luck with your plants though


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## Lawrence Lee (Jul 17, 2004)

I'm new to natural planted tanks, so my comments may not be valid. But in the wild, I've collected Java Ferns from water that's lower than pH 5, so I think pH isn't a problem with your fern. I have needle leaf java ferns growing well in pH 5.2 water in one of my high maintenance tanks.

But adding some baking soda into the water is good too as plants can make use of it for carbon. But I'd hesitate to scoop and dump it into the tank, preferring to mix it into a stock solution and drip it in via an airline and valve over the course of a day or two. Maybe up your GH to around 8dGH by some Seachem Equilibrium while you're at it.

Since the fern isn't planted into the substrate, it could be a chronic lack of a nutrient that is available freely in the soil but is not leaching sufficiently into the water column. It's not N, and I've learnt not to trust test kit results. Looks more like K to me. If you add some Equilibrium, you'd get the K.


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