# Crinum Thaianum dying



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

Hello,
I’ve set up a Juwel Rio 180 in Octobre 2018 and I’ve had an issue with BBA. I have the T5 model with Nature bulb in the back 45w and daylight in the front 45W. I recently decreased the lightning period from 9hrs to 5hrs. The aquarium is not in direct sunlight but the room is pretty bright.
I scrubbed all algae from everywhere I could access to and I started to use Easy Life fertilizers (Iron, Potassium and All-in-one)

I’ve noticed that my plants are not looking any better and are kind of dying.. See pictures.

Would you have any clue what I could do?

Thanks for any feedback,
Cheers,

Luigi


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Hello Luigi, I have the same aquarium and similar plant (Crinum calamistratum) with similar issues  All leaves which are close to the light source start dying from the end and patches of BBA grow on those parts. If I keep leaves in shade, they grow extremely slowly, but healthy. I suppose that issue is caused by combination of slow growing plant, high light and low CO2. As I do not want to add pressurized CO2 or lower the light intensity/photo period, I removed most of such demanding plants and reoriented to easy, fast growing plants. At the end, tank is healthier, better looking and much easier to maintain. 

Crinum Thaianum is supposed to be low CO2 and *low light* plant, you might have more luck by moving it to a darker corner or shade it with big floating plants (Pistia for example).


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

As mysiak said, I also have similar problems with C. calamistratum. I controlled the algae by shading the crinum with floating plants and simply trimming back the algae infested foliage. From the photos, your plant doesn't look very bad.


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

Thank you both for your replies!
It doesn't look that bad because I just removed all the very infested leaves 

Since it's a Mbuna aquarium, I cannot use any plant I want, but I really wanted to add a few anubias here and there on the rocks with the 2 Thaianums I have. Shading is a good idea but I need to keep the water surface agitated for the fish.
I'm using this in the back 45W:
https://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/Products/Lighting/Fluorescent-lamps/HiLite-T5-fluorescent-tubes/HiLite-Nature/
And this one in the front 45W:
https://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/Products/Lighting/Fluorescent-lamps/HiLite-T5-fluorescent-tubes/HiLite-Day/

I'm considering switching to the LED fixture. I have to admit that I don't know much about plant care.. Could you tell me if the 2 LED tubes of 23w each would be easier on the plant? Knowing that Juwel adverties that their LEDs are as good as their T5's but with less wattage.
What type of spectrum should I be looking for, do the plant care about having the Nature tube https://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/Products/Lighting/LED/MultiLux-LED/LED-Tubes/LED-NATURE/ or is the daylight https://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/Products/Lighting/LED/MultiLux-LED/LED-Tubes/LED-DAY/ sufficient for keeping the low demanding type of plants I'm considering? Do I need to care about white red or blue LEDs?

Thanks,
Luigi


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm not familiar with Juwel equipment, but you may have too much light for low-light plants. The T5 and LED all look good for plant growth, just a little too much.

Try the floating plants, especially the Pistia (water lettuce) mysiak suggested. Pistia is very sturdy and vigorous, and won't mind some surface movement. And I think it is native to the same Rift Lakes as the Mbuna.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Have you measured the NO3 in the water? Plants need nitrates to grow. Nitrogen is the most needed nutrient, after carbon. Your picture of your test results shows zero nitrites, but it is nitrates that the plants need.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Have you measured the NO3 in the water? Plants need nitrates to grow. Nitrogen is the most needed nutrient, after carbon. Your picture of your test results shows zero nitrites, but it is nitrates that the plants need.


honestly, in my setup my *perfect condition* nitrates come up as zero. I dont dose nitrogen 

Doesnt mean there is none in there though.  (my point)


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

Michael: so according to you, there is no difference between 90W T5’s and 46W LED’s?
I will look into the floating plant, but do you think there is any intensity difference between the T5’s and the LED’s I’m talking about?

hoppycalif: the water test doesn’t show the nitrates as it was the test I got from my LFS for my tap water. Since I have african cichlids that I’m feeding several times a day, I assume there should be nitrates in this tank anyway? And if I recall correctly, I did another test recently and it indicated that I had nitrates, I don’t remember at what level but I know it was nothing too crazy.
I’m doing one 50-70% water change on Sundays and 40-50% on Thursdays. In the between I gravel vac so you can throw a bucket of fresh water every 2days or so as an extra.

I’m sharing a quick picture with you of the tank, this was before I trim the very infested leaves of the Crinum in the back. I bought the one in the front 1week ago.
The close up picture was when I was running the aquarium for 9hrs a day.. Unfortunately I realised a bit late that the light was too strong...


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Luigi said:


> hoppycalif: the water test doesn't show the nitrates as it was the test I got from my LFS


you can expect the water tests to be innaccurate if your lfs tests them. To many reasons to list


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

@Luigi - I have swapped my T5 tubes for Aquatlantis EasyLed tubes (20W each), but found them too weak. So I replaced the whole lightning unit with Juwel HeliaLux (45W) and reused both Aquatlantis LED lights as well. Currently I run all of them on 3 separate controllers to simulate sunrise/sunset and limit the output during times when I'm not at home. They are at 100% (~9000lm) for a couple of hours per day, otherwise I limit them to ~40%. Green algae is a good indicator of too strong or long photo period. It needs a bit of experimentation, but you should be able to find a sweet spot in a couple of weeks (start low/short and increase gradually, stop when you have too much algae).

I would suggest you to buy new Juwel Helialux Spectrum unit with their controller. It's a bit expensive, but IMHO worth the price. In your tank you won't need any additional LED lights and I'm sure that you'll enjoy all the possibilities. Just a word of warning - you can NOT swap T5 with LED tubes 1:1, power sources are not compatible.

Regarding to the Crinum plant - in my tank it won't thrive without root fertilizer. From your photo it seems that you have inert sand substrate, so some root tabs could help. I'm using EasyLife root sticks.

Btw. friend of mine has big tank with African cichlids and they ate pretty much all the plants. Only Anubias and some Echinodorus survived, though they certainly do not thrive. So it's just fish, stones, sand and few sad remains of plants..


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

@mysiak:
I’ve seen the helialux but in my opinion, a Rio180 is too small to invest so much money in.. 😛
Since I got the aquarium from 2nd hand website, the light would cost me 3times more than the aquarium ahah
But I don’t deny that it would be an amazing thing to have, I woud just prefer to use it on a bigger tank, maybe when I upgrade to a Rio 400? 😄

But what do you think of the classic LED tubes? Since I’m at 90W T5, would it change something if I change to 46W LED but from the multilux range? According to Tropica’s label, Thaianums need 0.25W/L.

Also, I’m considering the Roots Sticks from EasyLife, you said you use them, are you satisfied with the results? Are you breaking the sticks to spead around a plant’s roots?


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Luigi said:


> @mysiak:
> I've seen the helialux but in my opinion, a Rio180 is too small to invest so much money in..


*yet ada makes thousands a day by making 1 gallon aquariums that sell for hundreds*


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

DutchMuch said:


> *yet ada makes thousands a day by making 1 gallon aquariums that sell for hundreds*


I agree but here we talk pure Aquascaping, if I were to have a nicely aquascaped tank with proper soil and a nice variety of plants, I wouldn't mind exploding the budget but the aim here is to have a nice looking fishtank without breaking the piggy bank.. 

Browsing on Juwel website, I found this: "The MultiLux LED features a *higher light intensity* while saving up to 50 % of energy compared to conventional T5 technology. Further advantages of the MultiLux LED include a longer service life of the LED tubes, and durable light quality compared to T5 fluorescent tubes."
Does it mean that for my plants it will still be too itense light that it would keep "burning" them? And that in the end the only difference would be money saving on tubes replacement and energy bills?


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

@Luigi - if you want to use MultiLux LED tubes, you must buy MultiLex LED light unit/fixture. If I'm not mistaken, price for MultiLux and Helialux (old version) is the same. So you won't save any money in this regard. Light output of T5 and MultiLux LED lights will be roughly the same as well, so you won't "fix" anything. If your only goal is to make lights dimmer, buy universal T5 reflectors and turn them upside down so they partially block the tubes. This will cost you a very little money and it's a "no hassle" solution.

EasyLife root sticks are IMHO very good. I break them in half and stick them into the substrate around big plants every ~3 months. Plant growth is a good indicator, once I notice extremely slow growth of Echinodorus or Cryptocorynes, I add sticks.


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

Hi mysiak,
I think I will try out your idea of using the reflectors upside down!
Do you think it could be usefull to drill the reflectors so I'm still letting some light pass through? I'm thinking of maybe doing a few small holes 2-3mm here and there.
Don't you think that if I'm not drilling, all the light will be reflected to the top and I would lose most brightness? Or it will just then partially fall back into the aquarium?
Would you buy full length reflectors or shorter ones?
Thanks for your feedback,
Luigi


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Mounting them literally upside down will be probably an overkill, but I would try mounting them sideways, blocking maybe 50% of the tubes and redirecting the rest of the light towards back or front of the tank. Just turn the reflectors around until you find a desired light level in the tank. This way you won't have to play with drilling. Having covered 100% length of the tubes will give you more control, but you will be probably limited to plastic Juwel reflectors as they have non standard length of tubes. Metal reflectors can be bent to almost any shape, so you could have stronger light in the front part of the tank, low in the back etc. 

You could still use floating plants in the corners, they naturally gather there (and they will lower your nitrates, which is a nice bonus in a cichlids tank). Also you can keep them in place with fishing line or airline tube. Many options out there 

Btw. if you use reflectors in the "normal" way, you can easily gain about 50% more of light if you ever decide to.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

If you put a single layer of window screen (insect screen) between the light and the tank, you will reduce the light intensity by about 40%. Add a second layer and you reduce the light by a total of 64%. This is true for the gray fiberglas screen I bought at Home Depot. I don't know if the screen you could buy would be the same, but it would probably be similar.


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Good idea. Windows screen tint film (used mostly for car windows) would work as well and there are several strengths available. Those can be bought from eBay very cheap and can be stacked as well.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

mysiak said:


> Good idea. Windows screen tint film (used mostly for car windows) would work as well and there are several strengths available. Those can be bought from eBay very cheap and can be stacked as well.


I wouldn't use film for this purpose, because it changes the spectrum of the light that gets through the film. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Saint-G...-Fiberglass-Insect-Screen-FCS8741-M/100245818 is what I tested.


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

hoppycalif said:


> I wouldn't use film for this purpose, because it changes the spectrum of the light that gets through the film. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Saint-G...-Fiberglass-Insect-Screen-FCS8741-M/100245818 is what I tested.


Those films should be neutral density types (they filter all visible wavelengths equally), but obviously doesn't have to be 100% true and it's hard to confirm without a spectroscope. I use them to dim my digital bedside clock.. 

Just curious - how did you attach the insect screen to the lights? Do you happen to have a photo? In a Juwel tank it would require either wrapping the tubes directly which I suppose can be dangerous due to overheating, or a bit of glue/silicone to hold the mesh in place.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

mysiak said:


> Those films should be neutral density types (they filter all visible wavelengths equally), but obviously doesn't have to be 100% true and it's hard to confirm without a spectroscope. I use them to dim my digital bedside clock..
> 
> Just curious - how did you attach the insect screen to the lights? Do you happen to have a photo? In a Juwel tank it would require either wrapping the tubes directly which I suppose can be dangerous due to overheating, or a bit of glue/silicone to hold the mesh in place.


I was only experimenting with the screen, as I recall. I tried it laying on top of the tank, taped to the bottom of the reflector, and moved by hand between the two locations. All gave the same result. I tried it primarily on screw-in fluorescent, spiral bulbs. But, I also did a brief test with whatever LED light I had at that time. This was all about 6-9 years ago. I know others then tried it on a variety of light fixtures, and it worked well with all of them. Since it is open screen, not a film, it doesn't cause any overheating however you do it.

"Neutral density" films are never truly neutral. The have a variation in how much they allow to pass through over the full spectrum, and it is a significant variation. It may work fine, but it also might remove almost all of the deep red light, which isn't good.


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

I might just be tempted to use duckweed to dim the light! I would have prefered the frogsbite but the roots grow too long in my liking, at least for that aquarium.

I just noticed that my BBA problem is not 100% resolved after reducing the light to 5hrs a day. I’m not sure if the crinum can feed from the water collumn or only via the substrate? If so, could it be that my light is too strong and that I might have excess nutrient? Would duckweed help me solve the light intensity problem as well as the BBA issue from removing excess nutrient in the water collumn?


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

I wouldn't voluntarily put duckweed into any of my tanks anymore.. Not worth the nuisance, especially when you want to get rid of it (which you'll probably want sooner or later). You can trim roots of Pistia or Amazon frogbit without doing any harm to the plant.


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

Good point!
But are liquid fertilisers doing sny good to the crinum or my root tabs are good enough?

Do you think that frogsbits could solve both my problems here? Intense light on the crinum and excess nutrients from water collumn to starve the BBA?


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

As far as I know and from my experience, Crinum doesn't care much about ferts in the water column. It relies probably mostly on nutrients received via roots.

Light intensity can be definitely "lowered" by any floating plant, Pistia and frogbit are a very good choice for bigger tanks. They will most probably need dosing micro nutrients though, otherwise they'll stop growing or will have deformed growth.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Luigi said:


> Good point!
> But are liquid fertilisers doing sny good to the crinum or my root tabs are good enough?
> 
> Do you think that frogsbits could solve both my problems here? Intense light on the crinum and excess nutrients from water column to starve the BBA?


You can't starve algae out of existence. Algae require extremely small amount of nutrients, much less than plants require. BBA seems to be able to exist under any conditions, but having lower light intensity, enough CO2 to meet the plants needs, and healthy growing plants seems to be the best way to reduce the BBA problems. Also, if you make sure you have the same concentration of CO2 in the water every photoperiod, that will inhibit BBA. I have found that dosing Metricide (or Excel), along with the steady CO2 supply, greatly reduces the amount of BBA I get.


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

mysiak said:


> @Luigi - if you want to use MultiLux LED tubes, you must buy MultiLex LED light unit/fixture. If I'm not mistaken, price for MultiLux and Helialux (old version) is the same. So you won't save any money in this regard. Light output of T5 and MultiLux LED lights will be roughly the same as well, so you won't "fix" anything. If your only goal is to make lights dimmer, buy universal T5 reflectors and turn them upside down so they partially block the tubes. This will cost you a very little money and it's a "no hassle" solution.


You mentioned here the old Helialux LED. Is it gonna be dimmer/less intense than the current T5's I have? The Helialux would still be 5625 lumens. Isn't it too much still? I might be considering to buy the old Helialux but only if I'm sure it would make a difference and without the controller..


----------



## Luigi (Jan 29, 2019)

Hi all,
I have an older Juwel daylight T5, is it going to be less intense since it’s older and therefore less aggressive on the plants?
Then I would have 2 Daylight of 2800lumen instead of the one Nature which was 3300lumen, could that make some kind of difference?


----------



## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Luigi said:


> You mentioned here the old Helialux LED. Is it gonna be dimmer/less intense than the current T5's I have? The Helialux would still be 5625 lumens. Isn't it too much still? I might be considering to buy the old Helialux but only if I'm sure it would make a difference and without the controller..


 I wouldn't buy LED light without a controller. If you do not want to spend too much money on this, look for water resistant LED tubes with standard 5.5mm DC plug (e.g. one Chihiros S823), so you can buy very cheap, but very good controller.



Luigi said:


> Hi all,
> I have an older Juwel daylight T5, is it going to be less intense since it's older and therefore less aggressive on the plants?
> Then I would have 2 Daylight of 2800lumen instead of the one Nature which was 3300lumen, could that make some kind of difference?


Start with the easiest method - use either insect screen, reflectors or their combination. You can always replace lights if you aren't happy with the result.


----------



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I think you have multiple issues. Fiirst, you don’t have enough plant mass, Second, you don’t seem to dose any fertilizer. Your light many not be the problem, and adding window screen or floaters will cut out too much light for the bottom part. I keep a planted tank with cichlid, but I have high plant mass to out compete algae. Your fish produce nitrate and phosphate, but not enough potassium, iron and micro nutrients and you need to dose. With heavy fish load, I still dose full nutrients including nitrate and phosphate after each WC as plants don’t like fluctuating nutrient levels. You do large WC twice a week which is good for tHe fish and plants, but that also strip nitrates that plants need. You can also try dosing excel to combat bba. I dose the initial 5x excel as recommended after each WC and it helps. I use cheaper Matricide substitute for excel.


----------



## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

As far as Luigi and his Crinum..looked fine to me. The decline he was seeing is because 5 hours a day is not long enough for those high light level plants to thrive.
I think so many aquarists get the idea that there aquarium has to look like the ones in photos..the models of the planted tank world. Not a speck of algae. Perfection. Well,that's because they cleaned the tank and removed any imperfection before the photo shoot.
I was looking at a vid of Amano's Lisbon aquarium..and when got closeup of the Anubias nana? They had some spotted algae and the rare leaf that looked old. Nothing you would spot without a zoom lens.
Nothing is really perfect. I mean if Luigi had just added an Ancistrus cat..what algae I saw would be eaten.
My big 240 has algae..spotted,hair. But the 99% plant bioload is healthy. Anubias bloom underwater,Bolbitis is growing fronds twice the size of what it had when I got it 2 months ago. I will even claim to having the worlds thickest growth of Val!..lucky I keep that in a 6" pot.
I do have Crinum calamistratum in a pot also. It went through a lot before I got it. And its taken a month to get that dark green glossy color back. Looks super exotic. Like a giant squid.
So..5 hours of light bad..and algae is algae,get an algae eater.


----------

