# Lake Malawi Cichlids and plants



## Borntofish (Nov 30, 2007)

Hi All,

I am still rather new to the planted tank world, approx 1 year, but I have my 30gal and 20 gal tanks completed converted to a planted world and the plants/fish are doing great. I am battling some minor algae issues but that's about it. As most or all of you know, planted tanks are quite addictive and I can't help to look at my 75 gal cichlid tank and see the possibilities. I currently have 6 rather large Mbuna cichlids (mostly Psuedos) in there. Of course the tank is alkalitic (sp) with a pH of 8.0 and not the best environment for plants but the algae loves it. Anyone experienced with converting this type of tank to favorable conditions for both the fish and the plants? I have heard of some folks injecting CO2 during the day to a pH of about 7.5 with out upsetting the fish? Any and all suggestions / advice / experience would be greatly appreciated. Happy Holidays to all!!

Born to fish


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

You might want to have a look at this thread! http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/3268-planted-mbuna-tank-2.html

Doesn't get much better than that!


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## travis (Oct 5, 2004)

Borntofish, I've been keeping a planted ARLC tank with CO2 supplementation for a little over three years now. About 50% of my substrate is Caribsea's pH/KH buffered Cichlid Sand (not recommended because many plants simply hate being planted in such an alkaline substrate) which buffers my pH up to around 8.0 and KH up to about 12 dKH. This is a good starting point for CO2 injection because it allows me to get CO2 levels near 25 ppm while still maintaining a decent (7.2-7.4) pH. If you're not using a buffered substrate then I would suggest adding crushed coral to your filter to provide the buffering capacity you'll need. I would certainly have gone that route had I known about the problems with alkaline substrate when I started.

My mbuna have not shown the slightest sign of problems in this environment - I suspect because the KH is still ~12 dKH, providing them with the hardness they desire. All of my mbuna species have great color, activity, and breed prolifically. My success rate with fry in a mbuna community tank is incredible, likely because of all the heavy plant cover that the young can use to hide in until they are large enough to enter general population.

Plant growth is excellent, although I have had trouble with some of the soft-water species like _Tonina_ and _Eriocaulon_. The main issue I have run into is digging, especially during breeding. I have intentionally left open areas behind some rocks and have found that, for the most part, the mbuna will dig where there is open sand rather than spending the effort to uproot plants when they don't have to. Of course this is not always the case and I do have to replant some things when the diggers get out of hand.

Contrary to what is usually believed, mbuna do not eat most plants. I think this notion got started because most of them are algae grazers and were observed to damage plants because they were going after the algae growing on the leaves. I've found that if you can keep your plants algae-free your mbuna will not bother them. There are a few notable exceptions: my Africans simply love the taste of _Vallisneria spp._ and, much to my eternal sorrow _Pogostemon helferi_ - aka downoi. I grew an entire foreground of downoi, only to have my yellow Labs develop a taste for it and decimate it all in about a week.

My favorite mbuna species to keep with plants is _Pseudotropheus demasoni_ for several reasons: their blue color is unlike anything else you are likely to find in freshwater; they are dwarf mbuna and do not get much larger than 2-3"; they are not heavy diggers and have very little impact on the aquascape. _Pseudotropheus acei_ and _Labidochromis caeruleus_ have also been good planted tank mbuna for me, although larger males can become troublesome if they like to dig a lot.

I highly recommend giving a planted ARLC tank a shot. You might be surprised what you can do with it.


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## Borntofish (Nov 30, 2007)

travis said:


> Borntofish, I've been keeping a planted ARLC tank with CO2 supplementation for a little over three years now. About 50% of my substrate is Caribsea's pH/KH buffered Cichlid Sand (not recommended because many plants simply hate being planted in such an alkaline substrate) which buffers my pH up to around 8.0 and KH up to about 12 dKH. This is a good starting point for CO2 injection because it allows me to get CO2 levels near 25 ppm while still maintaining a decent (7.2-7.4) pH. If you're not using a buffered substrate then I would suggest adding crushed coral to your filter to provide the buffering capacity you'll need. I would certainly have gone that route had I known about the problems with alkaline substrate when I started.
> 
> Hi Travis,
> Thank you for all the great info!! I would love to see a fic pics of your tank when you get a chance!!
> Born to fish


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## travis (Oct 5, 2004)

The link Ed posted above goes to a thread containing several pictures of my tank.


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

I see you have Mbuna's, I have Oscars - 3 good sized beasts in a 75gal tank and I'm fighting a high nitrate problem. Its running around 25ppm, even with daily water changes of up to 50%. I have tested the water supply for NH3, NO3, and NO2. The water supply has 0 NH3, 0 NO2/3. Tank water is: NO2= 0, NH3 < 10ppm - so I am not sure if this signals the start of a rise in ammonia or not. NO3 is around 25ppm as I mentioned above. I am wanting to put plants in the tank; I am not sure what plants would do well with Oscars. So far, I've introduced a couple of potted swords, and a couple of potted bamboo plants. The substrate is just plain pebbles as found in any petstore. The Oscars have ignored the plants so far which is encouraging, but they are plain looking and I would like to dress the tank up a bit. These fish are only fed live food, which they spit out the scales so there is very little waste (that I can tell anyway). I'm not sure where the NO3 is coming from. Any advise would be helpful.

Thanks.
Ed

BTW: I've begun the process of automating the water change cycle. I've done the dumping circuit on the 75 gal, filling is still manual with a hose. Have plumbed in part of the fill circuit, but ran out of money - darn those pesky bills!


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

I forgot. I have a canister filter and a bio-wheel. Never liked the bio-wheel as it is very poor at mechanical filtration (please, no flames - I simply don't care if you have good luck or not. I don't like 'em.) I will be taking the bio-wheel offline after I'm satisfied the biological filtration is well established in the cansiter filter. The water is sparkling clear but I also have a odor problem - like that of rotted vegatation. Might be the high N03?

Ed


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## travis (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed - I'm guessing that your oscars are simply too much for your filters to keep up with. I'm with you on the bio-wheel - not a fan either. You might consider using a sump filter to help out with the large amount of nitrogenous waste your fish are generating. They are relatively inexpensive to build and can deal with a lot of fish poo. 

More plants would also help, but I don't think that even a whole tank full of them could keep up with three big oscars' waste output. It's good to hear that your boys have not torn up the plants. You might consider adding some more tough plants like Anubias and Java fern and maybe (depending upon your light levels) some fast-growing Hygrophila, like wisteria or tropical sunset Hygro. Fast-growers will pull in more nitrates, ammonia, etc. than slower growing plants, although most of them are more delicate than swords, Anubias, Java fern, etc.

Best of luck!


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I think Travis is right that your Oscars are producing too much waste for your filters to cope with. I think you'll need a big external filter or, as suggested, a sump filter. What size/model filter do you have on your tank?

You might want to consider some floating plants that will use atmospheric CO2 and grow very quickly to use up the nitrate/ammonia. That is if the Oscars don't eat them.

Also I get the impression your filter, and maybe tank, is newly set up? The ammonia level should ideally be 0 (or as close as you can measure to it) with mature filters. You'll need to keep up the water changes and really cut back on the feeding while the filter matures. Oscars don't need to eat daily and you could really help the load by just feeding small amounts of pellets for a while. Live and frozen foods are messy and produce a larger amount of waste, visible or not. Oscars don't need feeding on live fish either; they are omnivorous and will eat a wide range of foods. I'd give them a good quality pellet once every three or four days to start with, building it up gradually, and change the water every day while you're still getting ammonia readings.

Sorry if I've mis-judged this and you have matured the filter properly before stocking. If this is the case then it seems the filter isn't man enough for the job!


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks for your replies. The canister filter is an ehiem(sp?) for 80 gal and the bio-wheel is sized for 75 or 80 gals. can't remember. the bio-wheel was in operation for 3 months before I became sick of it and placed the eheim into service. both filters have been running as I wait for the canister to develope a biological 'thingy'  I have removed it last week to clean the prefilter - that was full of muck. Fancing myself as a armchair scientist   I keep a close tab on the water's chemical make up of this tank - its an acyrlic tank I found at the curb one night in fantastic shape - and so far its been more heartache than pleasure. First a battle for clear water, then a battle against fungus as a plecosumus was placed in the tank which was full of fungus (wife didn't realize the fish was contaminated - it died) and so after that battle.... well, I'm grousing. Is this what I can expect from a plastic tank? the 55gal glass tank is just humming along and all the fishies are just swiming a round other than the parrots - they've taken up residence in the castle and refuse to come out other than for a nibble here and there. Ok, too many oscars in the 75. Excuse to look for another large tank. Thanks Ed, Thanks Travis.

Ed


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

Oh, would adding a mangrove plant help until I can fund a larger tank? 


Ed


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Filter manufacturers are often wildly over-optimistic on what their filters can actually do, especially when you're keeping bigger, messier fish. Ehiem especially have pretty low flow rates compared to other filters. I run an Ehiem 2128 (rated for a 132 gallon tank) on my 40 UK galllon planted tank with just tetras and dwarf cichlids in and think it's only just big enough! What you might be best doing is adding another filter that can then replace the Bio-wheel thing when the tank has matured a bit. As Travis said a sump filter would possibly be a good way to go to, but it does involve either drilling the tank or fitting an overflow. Another canister filter, if you can, would be a simpler move.

Another option would be adding an above-tank trickle filter. This will gas off ammonia and give excellent biological filtration, but also gases off CO2 so isn't great for growing plants. At the moment though that's a secondary concern IMO. An above-tank trickle filter can be made from anything that will hold media and water (s smallish plastic tank would be a good choice). Make a large hole in the bottom to let the water flow back into the tank; sit the container over the tank; fill with biological media (alfagrog, sintered glass or plastic media can all be used) and then put the external's spray bar to spary water over all the media. It won't look pretty, but will do the job in reducing the ammonia readings. The media should be constantly showered with water, but should not be submerged in water at all. This means the bacteria can use oxygen from the atmosphere rather than the tank and can grow more efficiently. It could be a simple and cheaper solution to your ammonia problem?

Until you've sorted this I would really cut the feeding back. If they're already a decent size, they can go for a week plus with no food and will suffer no ill effects. If you're not putting food in then you will really cut back the ammonia being produced. And keep up those water changes!!! I'm sure your tank will settle down if you do this.


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks for the advise Ed. Let me say this: One should NEVER take their wife shopping with oneself while shopping at the local hobby shop!! I have been wanting to play around with a wet/dry filter for some time now and so the problems with the Oscar tank has pushed me into action. First stop was at Wally World - a fantastic place for hobby items. Picked up a bunch of small plastic containers. Not a good place to take a woman who has smelled extra cash.  Now all I need is a bulkhead connection and a pump, and I'm all set. Has anyone tried luffa pads as filter media? 


Ed


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Know exactly what you mean about the shopping! 



ZooKeeper said:


> Has anyone tried luffa pads as filter media?


Never tried them and what you put in, in my opinion, doesn't really matter too much as long as;
1. It doesn't break down under water too much (as Luffa's are natural and fairly brittle AFAIK I'd be worried a bit about that)
and
2. It doesn't affect the water quality (I'd be worried here too as if it starts to break down you might add more organics to the water and I wouldn't be 100% sure they weren't covered in some scent or artifical product bearing in mind their bathroom uses!)

I'd be tempted to go with Alfagrog or Hortag granules (both of which are pretty cheap and effective) or get some cheap plastic pond media to use to keep the weight down. If you use Hortag (clay granules from Garden centres) then you could root some emersed plants in there too!


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

Won't the clay break down into mud or sludge? How does one tell which silicon sealer/glue is safe for aquariums? What is the purpose of having water standing in the drip tray of the wet/dry filter? 


Ed


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

ZooKeeper said:


> Won't the clay break down into mud or sludge?


Eventually maybe, but they are baked clay and I use them underneath houseplant pots for years, where they are kept wet to increase humidity, and they haven't broken down yet. I have also used them in a pond filter in the past. Unfortunately for ponds they get dirty and are hard to clean - shouldn't be a problem in a trickle filter as you need to filter the water before it goes there.



ZooKeeper said:


> How does one tell which silicon sealer/glue is safe for aquariums?


Well I only ever use that labelled as 'Aquarium silicone' to be safe. You just need to make sure it's pure silicone with no Fungicides etc. Any that's available in DIY stores here for bathrooms etc. seems to have them in.



ZooKeeper said:


> What is the purpose of having water standing in the drip tray of the wet/dry filter?


None! Often there's a bit there simply as it drains away, but if you can avoid standing water then great. If you can't avoid a layer of water in the base, then it won't matter either IMO.

I hope your going to take some pictures of your progress to share! Or at least take some photos when it's done.


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## ZooKeeper (Oct 16, 2007)

Potot's?! Dang, that means I gotta tidy up so you all won't think I'm a slob! lol. I was gonna take some yesterday evening, but got to watching my three pigs and then I got to watching my blood parrots and pretty soon I got to watching nothing - snored so loud I woke the dog up. I got the water supply side nearly done. Just need to decide on a pump.



Ed


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