# Elephant nosed fish in a NPT?



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Hi,
I am setting up two NPT tanks at my highschool for the science department, but I have been trying to figure out a couple things before I proceed.
The teacher that teaches neurology wants an Elephant Nosed Fish because he wants to measure the electrical signals with his class and make it audible. I know elephant nosed fish are sensitive and have specific requirements. I am setting up a species 29 gal (the largest avialable) NPT for the elephant nosed, and even try a biotope if i can find the enough plants from Africa. Has anyone done this?
I am also wondering on what type of soil to use. Apparently they like a pH of 6.8 to 7.2, water temperature 26 to 28 degrees Celsius, and water of medium hardness. Dose anyone know what type of soil that would need? I am doing an NPT because I know my teacher will not change the water regularly, which is why i want to make it NPT. Here are some plants that i found that come from africa: crinum natans, aponogeton subconjugatus and/or vallisnerioiles, nymphaea lutus, micrantra, A. coffeefolia, anubias, Tiger Lotus. IF anyone has some of these i would love to buy some 
(i am not being super stict in the biotope becuase i all i want of the plants is that they be from Africa, prefiably West africa) The other tank will be another NPT but a community tank with fish that have strange adaptations (maybe blind cave tetras or african butterfly fish, green tiger barb showing the tyndel effect, and glofish)
In my 5gal NPT, My wisteria that i planted is showing definite growth, and they leaves i trimmed and left floating have sent out a few 3" long roots. On of them keeps rotting through where i planted a stem and becoming detached. I have cut off the dead bit and i tried again, but it is browning at the base again. Do anyone know what is causing this?
I also have gas bubbles when i push down on the substrate. Is that bad? what dose it mean? I have learned it can be from organics breakdown or oxygen from the roots, but I am not sure which one it is . It dose not seem to smell as far as i can tell. the substrate was MGOC with gravel cap, but i soaked the soil a couple tomes and removed everything that could not fit though a sieve. 
In the next tank, I was going to use pool filter sand, but i am considering Black Diamond instead purely for atheistic reasons. HAs anyone noticed a difference as a cap?

Sorry about the long post and all the questions, I just want to get it right. 
Thanks,
MIke


----------



## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Most potting soils are high in organic content and are peat-based, which tends to keep close to the pH you are looking for. Your teacher may want to unvest in a small dorm-refridgerator for the classroom as well to keep live/frozen foods for the Elephant-Nose. They are picky eaters.

Air bubbles in your substrate can mean many things. Yours sounds like gas production from organic breakdown. If it does not smell foul, don't worry about it.

In NPT's, it is kinda crucial that you plant heavily, for the sake of the plants as well as the water quality and fish. If you dont' have enough plants to use the nutrients coming from the soil (during the first few months) and from the fish (thereafter) then the plants you have will be overloaded with nutrients, making the tissue very soft and weak, prone to infection or rot. (Not to mention the algae that will come in to take advantage of the surplus. ) Imagine a shady lawn that has been over-fertilized with nitrogen/ammonia. The grass becomes leggy and soft, and after a couple mornings of heavy dew, fungal infection sets in. That same lawn, when fertilized only with what it needs, stays turgid and more resistant to disease.


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Black diamond works fine for the community tank but not for the elephant nose.
Elephantnose root around in the substrate and will be torn to shreds by the black diamond. It is essentially bits of obsidian and will cut your hands if you handle it too much.


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks for the replys. My teacher already has a fridge/freezer in his class room,where he keeps frozen food for his saltwater aquarium, and i already told him about the diet them ENF needs, but thanks for the tip. I am glad it is just organic breakdown, and i think i am going to add back some of the bark mulch for my next NPT (which i removed all of for that aquarium) in order to give some long term nutrients as it breaks down, to hold the substrate together until the roots grow in, and for the acidity it will cause. That do you think?
Are all those nutrients causing the wisteria plant to rot?
the other ones seem fine. so do the the crypts and water hyacinth. 
Thanks for the warning about the black diamond, i knew it was sharp, but not that sharp. In the elephant nosed tank, would you used pool filter sand, no cap , or something else?


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

PFS would probably be ok or fine gravel.


----------



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

so potetoes, hows the tank proyect going?  mine is well, but like i said,the substrate started bubbling (gas) and stinking. well, hope you post some pics of the process when you get going


----------



## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Franco said:


> Black diamond works fine for the community tank but not for the elephant nose.
> Elephantnose root around in the substrate and will be torn to shreds by the black diamond. It is essentially bits of obsidian and will cut your hands if you handle it too much.


Another thing to watch out for on the black diamond is the lift from organics as your substrate settles in. I love the stuff, but have to let my substrate soak in a bucket for a long time to make sure it's good and ready so it doesn't push up during those first few weeks of break down.


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Its moving along, but all the dirt is still in buckets, so there is not much to post. I am working on several NPT tanks at once, and the Elephant nosed one will be in the future once i can orgainzed getting a 55gal at my school. I am going to be setting it up with the aquarium club, which i just started.

My 29gal is going to be switched soon, but i am currently working on getting all the components together. I have been soaking driftwood i gathered from the forest near my house, and all my soil is in buckets still. I am also slowly gathering up plants, as well as figuring out how to eradicate the algae on my current plants so i do not introduce it into the "new" tank. i have a thread about that problem as well...

Thats a great point mudboots. How long would you recommend soaking it? I am using MGOC potting soil, which i soaked for about a week and then filtered out everything bigger than about 4mm, so there is no bark or anything in it, but i have never gotten a clear answer to wether or not that is a good thing... I have only dont his to half of it, so i was thinking of adding the other half w/o removing the bark. what do you think? 

Sorry about the slow progress, i only have time to work on it on weekends because school keeps me very busy, but as soon as everything is in the tank(whenever that happens lol), i will post pictures. As soon as i am confidant in the soil, i can move forward


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

When I set up my second El Natural, I soaked the MGOC overnight in a tub, then poured off the floaters and most of the water. I repeated this twice. At the end of that process, there were no floaters (which are mostly the larger pieces of wood/bark), and the rinse water was much lighter in color. Then I let it dry out until crumbly, and put it in the tank. I did not screen the soil at all.

This second tank has much less tanin coloring the water than my first tank did at the same age. The first tank had MGOC straight from the bag, with just a little screening to remove chunks. I did use different types of submberged wood in the two tanks, so this may account for some of the difference. But I think soaking and rinsing the soil several times definitely helped.


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Awesome, thanks Michael. I have done that several times already to the first half (which is probably partially mineralized by now, and lacks bark) and the other half has been soaked once. I will do it two more times and then I will be almost ready to make the switch. When i put the soil in, should i layer the two types of soil or mix them? I dont want too much tannins, so i was going to put the bark-soil below the finer soil, but then i noticed that in nature, the soil with the orgaincs is on top. what do you think?

In my algae thread, it has been determined that i need to bleach all my current plants, the tank, decorations, and mechanics as to avoid introducing algae to the tank as it cycles, which i assume would lead to copious amounts of algal growth (i have a lot of algae)

BTW, are heaters necessary? any brand recommendations? Mine has been broken for a while, but now that we are headed for winter, i think it may be a good investment, especially since my fish and plants are tropical. Out of curiosity, has anyone noticed an effect on plant growth in relation to temperature?


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Glad to help.

On layering or mixing the different batches of soil, I don't think it is likely to make much difference.

On the need to bleach for algae control, I will go against conventional wisdom. It's a good idea to have everything reasonably clean of algae to start with, but you will never get all of it unless you can tolerate an aquarium completely without living things, LOL. Algae will be in the water that your fish come in. The idea of El Natural is to set up a system that discourages algae and allows the higher plants to out-compete it.

In my now seven-week old tank, I rinsed the plants and wood in tap water, but took no other precautions. Some of my plants had a thick coating of dark green algae that would not come off. I put them in anyway. Five days after setting up the tank, I put in ramshorn snails, and they ate that algae within 48 hours. That converted me from a snail hater to a snail lover! I haven't had ANY problems with algae in this tank so far. In fact, I've only had to clean the glass twice. And I am running over 3 watts per gallon of light: a 65w power compact fluorescent over a 20 gallon tank.

Diana Walstad reports deliberately introducing troublesome algae to her tanks from other aquarists' set-ups. It just disappeared.


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Hydrogen peroxide works well for algae. Just put your plants in a big bowl full of dechlor water, add hydrogen peroxide in small amounts (5 ml) until the algae is oxidizing (little oxygen bubbles form on the plants and makes them look like they are pearling). Just let it sit for a few hours. It won't hurt the plants and it will kill the algae, bacteria, fungi, etc on the plants.
You can do it in your tank too by shutting off the filter and using a pipette or a syringe, squirt hydrogen peroxide directly on the plants.
I don't know if it hurts your biological filtration but I've heard that some people do water changes, I just turn the filter back on after an hour.
It won't hurt your critters because the product of the oxidation is water and oxygen (the bubbles).
With bleach it is really hard to get the amount and timing right. You either fry the plants or don't kill the algae.


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

That makes sense. I was actually wondering the same thing about the inevitability of algae, but i have a hair algae thats starting to get a foothold in the tank, and i would rather eradicate it while i can rather than put it in a prim breeding ground of ammonnia during the cycle. I am going to do the h2o2 bath for the plants, and perhaps bleach the tank. When Diana introduced the algae, was it into an established tank or a newly-set up tank that was cycling?
also, NONE of my plants have EVER pearled. should i be concerned about that? maybe they will once it is a NPT rather then a gravel tank. only my algae covered anubias that floated to the surface is pearling, and i have a funny feeling its not the anubias thats pearling 
I plan to finish the soil and driftwood up this weekend, and i am working on acquiring an empty tank to use as a holding tank or to set up instead


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

I set up the tank with MGOCPS 12 days ago with a heater, no filtration, and a black daimond cap. (the filter for that tank is occupied in keeping my fish alive in the holding tank) Most of the plants have melted (dwarf sag, crypts, vals, dwarf lily, and rotella indica/rolfonda. sorry of i butchered some spellings. There are also a few plants whos name i forgot. There was a weird cloud like fog at the top of the tank and around all the plants, i am assuming it was a microorganism shroud that developed due to lack of circulation. There are also larger microorganisms that i could just make out going in little circles, and other worm line looking things. The spinny ones were about a fourth the size of a pixel on my computer screen, so it took me 10 days to notice them, after there were tons of them. I just did a water change and removed most of the dead plant matter that has been just sitting there (i have been really busy) My sword has some very damaged leaves because i stupidly allowed it to dry out while planting. the leaves are turning brown and transparent, but some of them still have a good amount of green. My ammonia levels are pretty high.

I am hoping that all the plants that melted will grow back, and some are sending up new shoots. Should i cut off all damaged sword leaves? that would leave two out of like ten. 

My plan of action is to wait for the ammonia to drop, add a powerhead, add water wisteria, and then add driftwood and attach javafern and anbias. 

what gph flow should i aim for in a powerhead in a 29gal? I have never owned one before. should i attach a sponge filter or will that compete with my plants for N?

also, is the elevated ammonia helping or hurting my plants?

I also learned that water hyacinth does not like it when its roots are left in diluted h2o2 to kill attached algae lol. nor does anachris. 

Sorry about all the questions. I will post pictures once things begin to grow back. Thanks in advance


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Whenever you use a bath of any oxidizing agent, try not to expose the roots too much. For some reason, roots really take a beating from potassium permagenate and H202 and you will actually see them turn brown.
I have killed both hornwort and elodea from soaking them too long in either pot perm and H202.
I'm guessing that the chemicals oxidize the ion exchange sites on the plants and the roots. Roots in heavy root feeders and the whole leaf surface in water column feeders.
With rooted plants, wrap the roots in a wet paper towel and them put the plants in upside down into the bath with the roots out of the water.

Pearling: You will only have pearling with really high rates of photosynthesis which you will only get from CO2 + strong light. My christmas moss pearls everyday within few minutes of the lights coming on in the morning or after siesta (higher CO2) but it quits pretty quickly. Natural planted tanks are designed to use lower light and CO2 levels to reduce the rate of plant growth (less trimming), no dosing of ferts, and to prolong the nutrient content of the soil underlayer. In high tech tanks with CO2, fert dosing, and high light, the nutrient demand is so great that the soil will be depleted of nutrients in as early as a year in some cases. Natural planted tanks last many, many years if good soil was used to begin with.

Ammonia: The elevated ammonia wont hurt your plants but it does mean that your plants aren't using them so there is a problem somewhere. I figured out my tank had low potassium early on by the persistent present of nitrites. I added a little potassium nitrate and the plants sucked up all of the nitrite within a day. If one part of the equation is missing, plants won't grow. 

Bleaching: I don't bleach anything anymore because I have killed way to many plants trying to do it right. I either don't kill what I want to kill or I kill all of it plus the plants. Algal spores are present in the air and in your tapwater so algae is going to be inevitable. If you are having algae problems there is a lack of a nutrient your higher order plants need and an excess of another. I figured out that dosing ferts containing iron in my tank just makes the algae grow and does nothing for the plants.

You need some fast growers like watersprite, wisteria, and the good old NPT staple, Duckweed. Everyone hates duckweed but it works wonders. I have a 3x5 inch rectangle made of drinking straws floating in my ten gal with duckweed and I remove half of it every other day. It keeps the duckweed from blowing all over the place and its just a little extra insurance against N buildup.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

In my El Natural tanks that are exposed to direct sunlight (through windows), the plants often pearl. This happens for brief periods every day. They would do the same thing if I put enough artificial light on them.

It is true that these tanks do not have the unlimited supplies of CO2 and nutrients to keep pearling for long periods without problems, probably algae growth. But you can see the phenomenon in an NPT at least once in a while.


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Franco said:


> Ammonia: The elevated ammonia wont hurt your plants but it does mean that your plants aren't using them so there is a problem somewhere. I figured out my tank had low potassium early on by the persistent present of nitrites. I added a little potassium nitrate and the plants sucked up all of the nitrite within a day. If one part of the equation is missing, plants won't grow.


Thanks for the replys. there was a lot of dead plant matter that was just sitting there, but i sucked it out. maybe it added tot he high ammonia?I am using MGOCPS, and i thought that such rich new soil would supply everything they need. It is true that the plants are barely growing. is this because there is a limiting factor or because they are still getting adjusted to the new environment? I dont know what to do...

I am going to get some wisteria this weekend and maybe some more floaters like frogit, slavinia, or giant duckweed. I am not sure how much these will help if the other plants are growing, and my only other current plan is to add a powerhead (manybe a spong filter, i am not sure and need advice) but i dont see how thses will improve the sitiuation


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Potatoes, I am going against conventional wisdom here. When you get your new plants, don't bleach them, peroxide them, treat them with salt, potasium permanganate, or anything else. Just rinse them well with tap water, and put them in the tank.

I think the reason your first plants are not growing is that you poisoned them with your well-intentioned efforts to clean them of algae. They may recover, just keep the dead parts trimmed off.

Good luck--it really should not be this difficult!


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Ah i see. I owned half of my plants already and gave them peroxide bathes due to the numerous algae types, but the other half was ones i ordered via the mail from the for sale forum. I guess the original plants are stunted from peroxide, and the new plants are stunted from shipping. Hopefully they will kick back into gear and establish themselves soon. I will try to get some healthy plants to add to compensate for now. I want to go get the plants tomorrow, but i want to buy the powerhead ( and sponge filter?) while i am out, but i dont know what to get because every time i search for powerhead info, it is for saltwater tanks


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I am no expert on powerheads, but since you've asked several times here's what I know. The usual advice is to aim for a gph rating that is 5 to 10 times the total volume of the tank.

For example, I run a 100 gph powerhead on my 20 gallon (5 times total volume) and an old Aquaclear 50 HOB. I don't know what the actual output of the Aquaclear is, but it is supposed to filter a 20 to 50 gallon tank. So I estimate that these two circulate 150 to 200 gph.


----------



## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Ok thanks! i will try to get the plants and powerhead today. I am hoping that the tank will sort itself out with enough time and plants. we will see


----------

