# My EI - Is this right?



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

*My EI - Somebody Help!*

Let's see if I get this right...

first I should know my tap water
its stats are as follows... 
I do not have an ammonia test
I use a red sea kit. Not sure on the kh or GH, does the first drop to get the base color count or not? And is it till the color changes or till the color is as dark as on the card? None of this is specified on the packaging.

Tap Water:
Ph-7.5 to 7.7 color is hard to tell.
Kh-3 or 4
Gh-3 or 4
nitrate - 5 to 8 ppm <although city report lists this as .3 ppm>
nitrite -0

my tank is 29 gallons, and I have a small fish population that I wish to grow to its maximum size, figuring in some inverts. Possibly freshwater clams, shrimp, maybe snails I think nerites are ok aren't they?

I use flourish excel and flourish iron, and I use diy co2. I use a bell reactor because using the powerhead venuri caused my ph to shift to almost 6.4 from around 7.6 in an hours time. Right now I'm sitting at 6.8 ph and a kh of 3 and a GH of 5. Given this my co2 is about 14ppm using the charts over at the krib. My co2 test must be worthless or I have high phosphates?? Cause the test was well over 60ppm for co2 just now.

My lighting is tough to figure out. Current stoplights say 32 watts per bulb. But my box which is a year old or so says "light output is determined by bulb" and the bulbs are 40watt. So if I go conservative and assume 64 watts, then I have 2.2 watts per gallon.

Otherwise I currently don't dose any ferts as I'm trying to figure this out. I was using red sea floravit but stopped.

I used chuck gadds calculator for the following. I used water ml measurements to equal 2 or 1 cups depending on the end ppm's per ml of the solution. Also in teaspoons and tablespoons for dosing when I figured amounts.

To maintain 10ppm nitrate I need to mix 3 tablespoons potassium nitrate to 2 cups water. Each teaspoon will contain 5ppm nitrate and 3.1 ppm potassium. I dose 1 teaspoon to make 10ppm with my taps already 5ppm.

To maintain a potassium level of 18ppm I need to mix 5 tablespoons and 1.5 teaspoons of potassium chloride to 2 cups water. Each teaspoon will contain 5 ppm. I dose 3 teaspoons while counting in the 3.1 ppm from the nitrate solution.

To maintain magnesium I mix 1 cup magnesium sulfate and 1 cup water. I dose 2 teaspoons.

I change the water once weekly 50%.
I change the diy co2 once every two weeks.
Test ph, kh, and GH once weekly.

Problems and questions
how often to dose flourish iron? And do I stick to the label amount?
How often do I dose the above ferts potassium, nitrate, and magnesium?
Where will my traces come from?
Should I up my light wattage to 84 or 2.89 wpg?
I don't filter is this necessary?
How can I better regulate this co2 to a non dangerous level without going pressurized (at least not right now)?
Is my kh to low? If so should I up it with baking soda?
Why is my GH so much higher in the tank than from the tap?
Will my ph crash when I change water since it's significantly lower in co2 content?


----------



## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

Urville,

First question you need to answer is what do you want to do high light tank (3 wpg plus) or low light tank (1.5 to 2wpg). High light is higher maintenance but you can grow whatever you want. Low light is lower maintenance  but there are some limitations on what you can grow (not as much as you read but still some). 

Once you decide on which lighting route then you can figure out or get help with fert dosing. Either way you can keep it much simpler than what you're thinking. I got to run to work ](*,) but I'll write more later if someone hasn't cleared things up for you.

Good luck, Bill


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

I see.
Well I already have _Lilaeopsis Novae Zelandiae_ in there and i was looking for glosso and red milfoil so right there i need high light.
Well then I will add the other 20watts which will put me up to around 3 wpg.
of course i could add the other strip and be at 128 watts which would be 4.4 watts. The only thing is I wonder if my fish would hate me for that much?


----------



## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

urville said:


> Let's see if I get this right...
> 
> Problems and questions
> how often to dose flourish iron? And do I stick to the label amount?
> ...


Urville,

Here is a simple EI plan from Tom's Barr's article. He is talking about a 20 gallon tank but it has higher light (5.5wpg) so I think it'll work in your 29 or you could round everything up a tad:

Traces and iron from: Seachem Flourish dosed 3x/week 5 mls.
Macros NO3, K+, and PO4 from: KNO3 1/4 tsp 3-4x/wk and KH2PO4 1/16th tsp 3-4x/wk. Traces one day, macros the next. Seems simpler to me than making solutions.......

CO2 regulation, add aeration at night or anytime fish are gasping for air.

KH minimum is supposed to be 3 so you barely make it.

GH probably doesn't matter either way.......

Water changes will raise pH not crash it, shouldn't be a problem.

Filtration, you'll see how the tank does. If you need a fliter you'll know because water will get funky......

Make sure you have lots of fast growing plants.........

Good luck, Bill


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

I just read in this thread he's been talking in about EI, that it has everything to do with your individual tank size, water quality from the tap. Is that not true?

And I have those other questions too.
I swear it seems like everytime I turn around these Fertilizing methods are just more complex, confusing, and unspecific.


----------



## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

urville said:


> I just read in this thread he's been talking in about EI, that it has everything to do with your individual tank size, water quality from the tap. Is that not true?
> 
> And I have those other questions too.
> I swear it seems like everytime I turn around these Fertilizing methods are just more complex, confusing, and unspecific.


The thing with EI is that it doesn't have to be exact. You are dosing an excess so there is never a shortage. The sample from Tom's article will give you pretty high levels even though you have a bigger tank. Your tank will have lower uptake rates because you have lower light. As for the difference between your test and the city's it doesn't matter because you can be off by 5 ppm and it's not a big deal.

I get the frustration with the fertilizing. I finally sorted it out by copying Tom's recommended dosing levels and then learning how to use the Fertilator here on this website. If you need help figuring out how to use it just keep posting questions. At some point I would like to see an EI article that goes through different tank sizes and gives sample dosing for each size.

Cool thing about EI is you are only dosing 3 things KNO3, KH2PO4 and Flourish so once you get over the overwhelmed feeling it actually gets fairly easy.

Bill


----------



## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

EI is the easiest thing in the world once you figure your levels out. I dry dose with mini measuring spoons, and love it. EI saves me so much time for other, more fun activities.


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

*oy vey*

i thought it has been well established that 
ammonical nitrates and nitrates from urea as well as the p in N-P-K causes algae blooms? isnt the p in n-p-k po4?

secondly how did you figure out those levels in the first place john?

if all thats not true why not just drive to lowes pick up miracle grow indoor house plant fertilizer which has n-p-k plus traces and just dose the crap out of that and then change the water every week?

in fact why not use the 6 month slow release stuff and then all i ever have to do is change the water every week?


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

urville said:


> i thought it has been well established that
> ammonical nitrates and nitrates from urea as well as the p in N-P-K causes algae blooms? isnt the p in n-p-k po4?


NH4 (ammonium) causes green water. PO4 does not cause algae. It may cause the NO3 in the tank to be used up quicker causing low or no NO3. It is actually the low NO3 that causes the algae not the high PO4.

The P is phosphorous or phosphates in particular for a planted tank. A long time ago it was thought that PO4 caused algea.



urville said:


> secondly how did you figure out those levels in the first place john?


I would guess either by using the Fertilator on this site or Chuck's calculator:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm

You can figure out how much your tank uses by doing some water tests though you don't have to test. You can slowly decrease the amount of each fert you add until you see poor growth, algae appearance, or lack of pearling, etc then bump it back up a little higher.



urville said:


> if all thats not true why not just drive to lowes pick up miracle grow indoor house plant fertilizer which has n-p-k plus traces and just dose the crap out of that and then change the water every week?


I think both Miracle Grow and the timed release stuff are Nitrogen (from urea and or ammonia based nitrogen sources). We are looking for nitrates, phosphates and potassium, not nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium.



urville said:


> in fact why not use the 6 month slow release stuff and then all i ever have to do is change the water every week?


You are more than welcome to try it. If it were this easy I think folks would have been putting timed release stuff in their filters and continually dosing it a long time ago


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

OH! no kidding?!
low no3 causes the algae? crap i better do something soon then...
what about diatomic algae the brown stuff. i always got that with high light when i first started a tank back in the day...

Ahhhh....
i just assumed the stuff in the N-P-K's at the local store were the same thing...
i almost bought jungle pond tabs too... wasnt sure if that was a good idea or not...

well right now to save the situation all i have is these Sera Florenette A tabs, not sure if they have everything but thats all i have...
i think they are nitrate and phosphorous free... something about both being there in every tank.

i'm gonna hang em in the column until i get this mess figured out with bill ...
then i have to find the stuff local so...


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

urville said:


> low no3 causes the algae? crap i better do something soon then...


Low anything, NO3, PO4, or CO2 can give the algae a chance to appear.



urville said:


> what about diatomic algae the brown stuff. i always got that with high light when i first started a tank back in the day...


Diatoms have been in every new tank I have set up, They don't last long but then I am adding ferts and pressurized CO2 from day one...



urville said:


> well right now to save the situation all i have is these Sera Florenette A tabs, not sure if they have everything but thats all i have...
> i think they are nitrate and phosphorous free... something about both being there in every tank.


Not sure about those tabs. Nitrate free, but are they ammonia/ammonium/urea free?



urville said:


> i'm gonna hang em in the column until i get this mess figured out with bill ...then i have to find the stuff local so...


KNO3 - Stump Remover - You can find it at most home centers or hardware stores. Greenlight is usually recomemended and I have used Spectracide for over a year without problems.

PO4 - Fleet Enema - Most any Pharmacy will have this. WalMart is cheapest in my experience. The dosing for fleet is in the Fertilator and others on the site can help with figuring a dose for your tank. I used fleet for almost two years and just ran out!

I always use Lowes/WalMart since one always seems to be fairly close to the other...


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

tom had said something to someone wanting help with the EI method in the EI sticky at the top of the list that stuck with me. I think it was that if the GH and KH arent 3 degrees higher in the tank than from the tap then to let him know.

is this something big?
first i cant figure out on my red sea kh and gh tests whether the first drop to get the base color counts, or if only the drops after the first to get the color count? it never specifies. Assuming that the first drop does not count then"
My tap GH is 3 and my tank GH is 5
My tap KH is 3 and my tank KH is 3 - VERY not 3 degrees more


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

Now that i have an idea of what to dose, Is the following correct?
M-W-F
Dose traces

Tu-Th-Sat
Dose Macros

Sun
50% water change
Do I dose anything this day?


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

urville said:


> tom had said something to someone wanting help with the EI method in the EI sticky at the top of the list that stuck with me. I think it was that if the GH and KH arent 3 degrees higher in the tank than from the tap then to let him know.
> 
> is this something big?
> first i cant figure out on my red sea kh and gh tests whether the first drop to get the base color counts, or if only the drops after the first to get the color count? it never specifies. Assuming that the first drop does not count then"
> ...


Sounds like good water.
Re read the directions and re test these.

Shake the vials well between drops.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

urville said:


> Now that i have an idea of what to dose, Is the following correct?
> M-W-F
> Dose traces
> 
> ...


I'd do this for this tank:
Sun 50% water change, after add: 1/4 teaspoon KNO3, 1/16th K2PO4, SeaChem EQ at 1/2 teaspoon.
Crank the CO2.

You can dose the traces 2-3x a week(5mls)
You can dose the KNO3/KH2PO4 2-3x a week

Try to add the traces ands KH2PO4 apart from eachother time wise.
Some folks dose every other day, your tank does not need that much but you can dose it that way if you want.

So 10-15mls total Trace a week, 1/2-3/4 teaspoon of KNO3, 1/8-3/16th KH2PO4 a week, 1/2 teaspoon of SeaChem Eq a week(after water change only).

Divide this up into no less than 2 doses all the way to daily if desired.

Add enough CO2 to get 30ppm of CO2 on the CO2/pH/Kh chart.

So check the KH carefully again.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

ok i reread the directions and i was doing it right. it does not say whether the first drop counts, or whether its until the color is dark or just changes from blue to orangy

this is what it says:
4. Add 1 drop of Indicator, close the test tube with the
stopper and shake gently for 10 seconds. The original color
of the liquid should correspond to the starting color of the
applicable color scale.
Note: should you obtain the end color, your sample contains
extremely soft water (less than 1 KH).
5. Open the test tube, add one drop of Indicator and shake
gently. Compare the color of the sample in the test tube
with the corresponding end color on the relevant color
scale.
6. Repeat direction 5, adding one drop at a time until, the
end color is achieved, counting the number of drops added.
7. Clean the test tube and stopper with tap water.
8. Number of drops = degrees KH.

i checked it again and my kh has gone up to 5...
how can this be? the only difference is i had those sera florenette A tabs by the filter... or did the co2 do it?

its interesting too because i noticed this morning that the co2 sometimes gets blown out of the bell and it floats around the surface getting smaller and smaller and i thought WHOA... is that because i'm saturated?
??
i checked the ph and the color is hard to tell but i think t's 6.7 or 6.6. it's not blue enough to be higher and not yellow enough to be lower.
i tried using my jungle 5 in one dips on the same water and got a color close to 6.7 6.8 ph and somewhere between 80 and 180 ppm the colors are ridiculous to read. i may go get the aquarium pharmaceuticals kit just for another refernce. i wish they made them extreme color changes in .1 steps ehehe.

so that gives me between 29 and 37 ppm co2 hehehe... i wish ph monitors were cheaper.

Tom; Dont dose any Potassium?


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

urville said:


> i checked it again and my kh has gone up to 5...
> how can this be? the only difference is i had those sera florenette A tabs by the filter... or did the co2 do it?


The CO2 will only lower your pH..it doesn't affect the KH.

I would say there was some user error with the test kit  I don't know how may times I have miscounted drops when using AP KH or GH kits. When I get conflicting readings from my kits I always check it again.



urville said:


> its interesting too because i noticed this morning that the co2 sometimes gets blown out of the bell and it floats around the surface getting smaller and smaller and i thought WHOA... is that because i'm saturated?


I don't think you are CO2 saturated unless all of your fish are floating at the surface! I'm not sure how high the CO2 saturation level is but I imagine it is pretty high!



urville said:


> i checked the ph and the color is hard to tell but i think t's 6.7 or 6.6. it's not blue enough to be higher and not yellow enough to be lower. i tried using my jungle 5 in one dips on the same water and got a color close to 6.7 6.8 ph and somewhere between 80 and 180 ppm the colors are ridiculous to read. i may go get the aquarium pharmaceuticals kit just for another refernce. i wish they made them extreme color changes in .1 steps ehehe.


I can't read those dang color charts at all! The sample never seems to match the chart they give you and I always doubt my eyes. In the begining, I spent enough money on inexpensive kits that I could've just got a good Lamotte kit in the first place and saved some money!



urville said:


> so that gives me between 29 and 37 ppm co2 hehehe... i wish ph monitors were cheaper.


Try looking for a pH pen instead of a monitor. Here's a link for you:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hanna-pHep2-WATERPROOF-pH-Meter-Tester-Pen-NEW_W0QQitemZ7541638911QQcategoryZ58191QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The pens are much cheaper than the monitors...


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

I talked to my LFS where i got Flourish Excel and Iron and they said they are dscontinuing the Seachem Line. In fact they are discontnuing the entire planted section as well.
So I have no idea where I'm going to find Equilibrium. or Flourish Excel anymore. I dont have a way to order things online.
anyone have a suggestion as to an alternative i can find locally?

yah a laborette test kit is only about 14 dollars anyway


----------



## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

here`s your alternative to Equilibrium.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=8926


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

K+

You get a lot of K+ (relative to NO3) in KNO3.
You also get K+ from the SeaChem EQ.

You can order SeaChem stuff from Big Al's also.
Adding K2SO4 will not hurt, but IME after a number of years as well as others suggest you simply do not need it in a planted tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------

