# Rebuilding help



## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Different issues including being away from home for extended periods has made my tanks suffer. Mu biggest concern is bringing my 120 to where it was 2 years ago. Back then I had 3 Amazon Swords that had grown over to shade the entire surface. Now the only thing thriving are Annabus plants and some Crypts. 

My basic set up is 120 gallon with literate and red flint for the substrate. Lighting is 216 Watts of T5HO bulbs. In the past I was using tetra pride and Seachem Florish as a weekly fertalizer but I hadnot been doing it more than about monthly the last year.

I'm looking at setting up a fertilizer system I'm looking at making a one gallon mix for dosing consisting of:
1,000 grams KNO3
100 grams KH2PO4
100 grams K2SO4
2,000 grams CaCl2
1,000 grams MgSO4
Plus some form of Iron 

My estimation would be dosing then about 30 ml of this mixture a week, with the new water I'm adding after a water change. Please note I have been using RO water with only Kent RO Right added. Be aware my well water is excessively hard.

I;m looking for thoughts on my mix and dosing as well as ideas on how to add Cleated Iron to the mix the most economically. 

On the long term I an looking at adding a RO system.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Instead of reinventing the wheel, I suggest using the EI dosing method: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html If you want to start with a gallon mixture, that is 3785 ml, so if you dose 30 ml at a time, that is 126 doses. Take the suggested dosages in that table, multiply by 126 and add that to the bottle. Fill with water and you have the right dosages in each 30 ml dose. Note, you should not mix phosphates with iron in one bottle, because they tend to combine into iron phosphate, FePO4, which is insoluble, so it will precipitate out of the solution. Most of us mix only the macro nutrients, NPK in one bottle, and use a different bottle for micronutrients. And, we dose calcium and magnesium only at water changes. That isn't the only way to do it, but it works well.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Instead of reinventing the wheel, I suggest using the EI dosing method: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html If you want to start with a gallon mixture, that is 3785 ml, so if you dose 30 ml at a time, that is 126 doses. Take the suggested dosages in that table, multiply by 126 and add that to the bottle. Fill with water and you have the right dosages in each 30 ml dose. Note, you should not mix phosphates with iron in one bottle, because they tend to combine into iron phosphate, FePO4, which is insoluble, so it will precipitate out of the solution. Most of us mix only the macro nutrients, NPK in one bottle, and use a different bottle for micronutrients. And, we dose calcium and magnesium only at water changes. That isn't the only way to do it, but it works well.


+1 hoppy's comment
Very informative


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Thanks for the link. It answers a lot and sounds easy to calculate what I need to do.

But my concern still resides in the FE. The product I used in the past is no longer available to the general public. I ran some calculations on using things like Flourish and Flourish Iron and can see were just the Iron dosing can get expensive with large tanks. 

So what do you consider the most economical way to supply Iron.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

http://nilocg.com/iron-chelate-11/ is one of many dry chemical suppliers products that work well.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Also highly recommend NilocG, colin never fails with his ferts!


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I'd suggest going with mineralized soil, supplemented with Osmocote+ and Flourish tabs. Grows the crap out of stuff and is a lot easier than regular dosing. I add half the recommended dose of Flourish to the water and some K weekly, but that's all.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Cavan Allen said:


> I'd suggest going with mineralized soil, supplemented with Osmocote+ and Flourish tabs. Grows the crap out of stuff and is a lot easier than regular dosing. I add half the recommended dose of Flourish to the water and some K weekly, but that's all.


There are several ways to manage a planted aquarium, and all of them work under at least some conditions. The best way is always the way that best fits your own needs and situation. Diana Walstad does very well with her way, and Tom Barr does very well with his way, but the two are not at all the same. Half of the fun is in finding what works well for youl


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Thinks for pointing me in to several great options. 

A little background here for everyone. I had done planted tanks for well over 50 years. Initially they were low tech but through the years I had gone to more intermediate. But the big thing was in the last 20 years my biggest planted tanks were around 50 gallons. I had used iron rich clay based literate with red flint gravel, as well as CO2 systems. The longest I would leave a tank up without a complete cleaning would be about 18 months.


About 5 years ago I switched to larger tanks 120 gallon plus. My tank was going great up till about a year ago Amazon Swords with 36" leaves suddenly died back in the last year to about 12" Sagittarius which I used to thin every 3 months is now almost gown, but my Anabus, and Crypts are growing like never before. About 2 years ago my CO2 system broke down and with my schedule the last few years I was lucky do be able to do a water change every month. 

I'm hoping to revive the system without a complete tear down. Being semi retired now I don;t have the money to stick into my tanks I used to. So rebuilding my CO2 system is on the back burner. But the more I can save on fertalizers the more of the empty tanks I can bring back on line. 

I have decided to go with the EI BASED NPK + CSM+B with the addition of DTPA for Iron. I'm also considering using the Thrive Root tabs.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Sorry but more questions.

I cannot find what the exact ingredients are for the Plantex CSM-B and see some references that with it there is no need to dose iron and other claiming you need to add iron. 

I'm also looking through the various iron suplements.

Ferrous Gluconote
FE 11% Cheleted DTPA
FE 13% Cheleted EDTA 

But no dosing recommendations on the Iron. In the past I simply bought 1/2 gallon bottles of liquid fertilizer in a yellow and brown bottle, dosed one cap full per 10 gallons every week. It was a complete fertilizer that worked great with my old CO2 system. I don't mind the extra work of mixing my own but worry about missing something.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

See http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/68328-edta-dtpa-one-should-i-use.html


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Well I put my order in for an initial fertalizer pack with CSM-B and Root Tabs but I did not order any extra Iron. I'm hoping there is enough Iron in the Root Tabs to feed my Amazon Swords. My guess is I'll have bout a 6 month supply of most Chemicals. If I see Iron in deficient and I did not get enough from the CSM-B then when I get the refill of CSM-B I'll also add the Iron. 

I also ran some water test today. Found KH is at 120 ppm and pH at 6.8 so I'm not going crazey about adding CO2. But my suspicion is the KH will go up once I start fertilizing again 

Thanks everyone for sending me the right direction.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (May 27, 2017)

K


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Well I got my Chemicals today. Not happy with what the Post Office did to the package but I should have 3 months of chemicals anyway, which is better than waiting. So I gave my first Dose into my 120 gallon of 10ml from each of the bottles. Note I did pick the PPS-PRO fertilizer Package which calls for daily dosing. But I'm skeptical about over dosing.

I'll try posting a picture below of my 120 now as I'm starting the rebuilding process.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

four days so far Running Alk and pH test before each dose. Than calculating CO2. I;m watching pH slowly rise a point or so every day., as well as a slight rise in Alkalinity. But if the calculator I'm using is correct my CO2 level is dropping. I'm suspecting the added fertilizer is getting the plants to use up the CO2 that is available easier. I am running strong lighting 6X54 watts of T-5HO. 

Might have to up the priority of CO2 if this continues.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Measuring the pH and KH of aquarium water does not tell you how much CO2 is in the water. The charts that show that relationship are good only for distilled water that has nothing in it that affects pH and KH except CO2 and carbonate/bicarbonate. Aquarium water almost always has other compounds in it that also affect the pH. If you want a fairly good, but crude measure of how much CO2 is in the water, you can take a sample of the tank water and let it degas out in the open air for a day or two, then measure its pH. Now measure the tank water pH. The tank water pH will be lower than the degassed water. The amount of CO2 in the water is about 3 times ten raised to the difference in pH power. Examples: Degassed water - pH 7.2, tank water 6.2, ppm of CO2 is 3 times ten to the 1.0 power, which is 30 ppm. Tank water is 6.0, it is 3 times 10 to the 1.2 power, which is 45-50 ppm.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

It is about a 10 days now since I started dosing the tank. I did not expect to ee much but there are some new leaves sprouting up from my Amazon sword plants. Plus I'm starting to see some algea on the glass which I had not seen for years. However I do have Bristle Nose Pleco's in the tank which did help keep it clean.

Today I got an added surprise from NilocG Aquatics. The original package had leaks in it probably caused by the shipper. I sent them a picture of the package and today I received package not only replacing the damaged packages but with additional goodies. They seem like a Company that is concerned about their customers which is becoming more and more of a rarity today. they are now very high on my priority list of businesses to do business with.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

hoppycalif said:


> Measuring the pH and KH of aquarium water does not tell you how much CO2 is in the water. The charts that show that relationship are good only for distilled water that has nothing in it that affects pH and KH except CO2 and carbonate/bicarbonate. Aquarium water almost always has other compounds in it that also affect the pH. If you want a fairly good, but crude measure of how much CO2 is in the water, you can take a sample of the tank water and let it degas out in the open air for a day or two, then measure its pH. Now measure the tank water pH. The tank water pH will be lower than the degassed water. The amount of CO2 in the water is about 3 times ten raised to the difference in pH power. Examples: Degassed water - pH 7.2, tank water 6.2, ppm of CO2 is 3 times ten to the 1.0 power, which is 30 ppm. Tank water is 6.0, it is 3 times 10 to the 1.2 power, which is 45-50 ppm.


Yes I will agree that they are a feeble way of measuring CO2. In a home aquarium unless your a multi-millionaire there is no sure measurement method work the cost of the equipment.

But remember in pure water there re no + or - IONs. pH is the ratio between + and - ions. so even a small amount of CO2 into an ion free liquid will cause a drastic pH shift. That is why the level of Alkalinity must also be considered.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Just a little heads up, on how things are going. 

After about two months I dropped back my fertilizing to weekly. It is actually hard to controm my plant growt with crypts reaching up 12 tall, Water Sprite reproducing to the point I;m throwing out a dozen plants every other week. Anabius have spread like crazy as well from 2 plants I now also have a Anabius filled 40 gallon breeder tank. 

Amazon swords were the only plant that initially did not respond like I had hoped. When NilocG replaced the items they destroyed in shipping they gave me some extra root capsules. I tried one around each Sword plant and wow did they spark up the growth. Since then I'm adding them monthly and the Swords are loving them.

Thanks for everyone that helped refresh me on the fertalizers and lead me to the great source. In thepast I bought eerything pre mixed and this is great saving even though I was initialy a little afreaid to take the plunge into mixing my own.


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