# Is there life on Mars?



## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Here's the hardscape for my new tank... dunno when I'll be able afford the plants I want

Criticism and comments welcome.


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## bratyboy2 (Feb 5, 2008)

mars is right lol yeah i really like it so far....what plants what are the specs and what are the fish looking like? some crazy alien looking ones?!?!?! lol


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## gibbus (Sep 16, 2006)

wont the substrate flatten out once you fill it in with water?


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## GlitcH (Aug 21, 2006)

What is that......a 20G?
I like it....it's different.....with the driftwood ends in the substrate but this different is good.  

Do you have a good flow coming off that spraybar? If not I'd think you might have some dead spots on the left side once your plants fill in.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I love the look of the rocks and substrate. You did an amazing job. Unfortunately once you put the plants in all this scape will be covered up by the plants. I always enjoy seeing all the twists and turns of the rocks and wood. Then I see the tanks progress and so much of it is lost - covered by the plant growth. I understand it's the nature of the beast. I guess that's why I have HUGE rocks and long wood in my tank. Course if you have all short tight plants you can still see it - but .... then there is all that empty water space on top.... guess I just can't be pleased......[smilie=t:


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## dirrtybirdy (May 22, 2007)

i love the hardscape the way it is. 

NO PLANTS! lol


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Aren't those the giant Sand Worms of Dune? ;-)

I like it that way. Plant really low stuff that won't hide the detail, and maybe some tall, narrow stuff at the back. A curtain of Val or Sag.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

bratyboy2: It's a 40 breeder, 2x55 watt, Rena XP3, CO2 through a PVC reactor. 
As for the flora and fauna, I'll give you a hint: I have VERY soft water.

gibbus: Good point! I'm hoping the AS with the rockwork will prove to be pretty stable. I'll have to get the plants established before I get any diggers... We shall see.

Glitch: Do you have any suggestions for better spray bar placement? You are right, if the plants grow in, it can get dead spots. My current plan is to see if keeping the plants well trimmed will suffice, and adding an additional power reactor if it doesn't. I'm open to suggestions!

Tex Gal: I know exactly what you are talking about! Getting a good plant/hardscape/open space ratio is really tough!

dirrtybirdy: Thanks!

My LFS is getting a shipment that may include rare plants the friday after next, so it looks like I have a planting date!


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## GlitcH (Aug 21, 2006)

Minsc, I like to keep it in the middle or when I can, opposite side of the intake.

I find if your intake is on one side with the outlet on the other, even if the plants do grow in, the natural flow of the water created by such placement minimizes dead spots.

So.......that "soft water" hint wasn't good enuf for me. I'm afraid your just gonna have to spell it out.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Well, I have my filter going through a reactor (now with venturi), and a heater. Basically, there is no way I can move anything at this point without buying new hoses.
If I end up with CO2 starved plants in the corners, I guess I'll go that route.

As for the soft water comment, I'm planning on having a number of Toninas and Erios, as well as some other stems that prefer a lack of KH. On the fauna side, it will be a community with rams as the centerpiece.

The tank has been filled, the wood is weighed down, and everything looks good for a planting session on friday. Hopefully I won't cause any more floods before then...


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

UG ground cover might go great with the Erio's and tonina's. I am setting up a 20 Long for erio's and tonina's also and was thinking of trying out UG in there.
The layout looks really nice, I can't wait for you to plant it.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Oh yeah! I definitely want to add UG in the front. I'm just having a hard time justifying the current asking price, especially with cheap pots of HC at my LFS. This tank is going to have to start financing itself soon, 'cause it's drained my wallet dry already!

So, when do we get to see pictures of your 20?


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I might have a source for it for more like $8 shipped for a 2x2 patch.
Thru a friend so I have to see if he will give up his source, but if I get it I will PM you with it.


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## bratyboy2 (Feb 5, 2008)

hmm well i would have never guess those plants even talking to goal about him doing them lol. well im going to find this interesting when i see it. have you gotten any up dates pictures yet? also any other fish besides the rams? i mean i love the fish as well but i was just wondering.


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## puttyman70 (Aug 7, 2007)

Every time I see this thread I get "Life on Mars" by David Bowie in my head. I guess I'm going to have to go dig up the cd. lol.

Very cool hard scape.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Goalcreas: That would be great! Let me know!



puttyman70 said:


> Every time I see this thread I get "Life on Mars" by David Bowie in my head.


I have no idea what you are talking about 

Thanks to the wood and the AS, the tank currently looks like a blackwater biotope.
The LFS gets their rare plant shipment on friday, so I'll be throwing something in there no matter what!


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I will PM him now.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

He is looking into it. It is thru a friend that works in a lab and is doing research on carnivorous plants.

There is also this site, a little more, but not as much as what it goes for on here.

http://www.carnivorousplantnursery.com/sales/salesplants.htm#Anchor-Bog-33869

$12 per portion, but I was told it might be for 4 portions????


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

OK my friend contacted the link above and you get:

2" potted either emersed or emerged growth for $10.

Not a bad price and he wraps it in sphagnum for shipping so its easy to transplant. No damaging a delicate plant tearing it out of wool.

HTH


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## bratyboy2 (Feb 5, 2008)

what is this UG we are talking about i went to that site and got overwhelmed by the amount of plants and the carnivorus things i forgot what i was looking for lol. there is an underwater carnivorus plant?


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## GlitcH (Aug 21, 2006)

bratyboy2 said:


> what is this UG we are talking about i went to that site and got overwhelmed by the amount of plants and the carnivorus things i forgot what i was looking for lol. there is an underwater carnivorus plant?


Utricularia graminifolia


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Brian is right.

Look at the carpet plant in this thread

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...urticullaria-graminofolia-2x2-mat-pieces.html

It is an awesome carpet plant, it is carnivorous, but at the microscopic level.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

That's a nice layout, very different. I think a nice school of threadfins hovering over the rocks would go with the theme. They look pretty far out.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

OOOHH NICE!, Are they jumpers?


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Goalcreas: So your friend contacted them, and they said they would send a portion for $10 shipped?
Is there someone specific I would have to contact? The website claims a $20 minimum order is necessary, with an additional 7.95 in shipping...

Houseofcards: Good call on the threadfins, although I will probably go with R. espei and furcata rainbows.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I don't know about if it was shipped or not.
I think it was extra for ship since he was going to get a group order for some.
But that would be more then double the single rate for a few bucks more.

His $8 shipped was from a friend's research outfit and they didn't have any to spare now so he said it was a no go.

If you got a friend to go in on it with you it would be under $15 per portion.

Best I can do so far, but I might be able to mooch some off another guy for you if you pay for shipping. I would really like to see the UG in that tank of yours.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

So..... No plant shipment, no update[smilie=f:

However, my LFS has promised to call me, and let me know when they will arrive. Also, THEY HAVE HAD AND WILL REORDER UG! I knew I saw it in there once! So I won't have to take you up on your offer, Goalcreas. I really, really appreciate it though, let me know when you need a plant related favor

The modifications I am making to my CO2 reactor have been a real nightmare, so a few more days to work on it is actually a really good thing. Hopefully I won't flood my stand a third time:yield:

-Sean


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Cool, you are getting UG from your LFS, that is great.

There is a new foreground plant that Robert Hudson introduced on this forum today.
I got a pot, it is from Australia and it is really promising looking, kind of a ground cover.
You might like to get some for this tank.
I think it was posted in the Aqua Botanic sponsor forum. Pretty cool stuff, but I don't remember the name.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Cool looking plant! This tank will be run a bit on the hot side to keep rams, so it might not be the best fit... Definitely something to play with in the future, though.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Yeah, he said no discus tanks

I will let you know and when it gets to trim time, I will PM you and see if you want to pay for the shipping to have some.


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## puttyman70 (Aug 7, 2007)

Minsc said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about


David Bowie? The thin white duke? It is literally a song by David Bowie called "Life on Mars". Just google it. Maybe I'm just old. Post some pics when you get it planted please!


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Puttyman70: I was kidding, hence the wink smilie. I actually get the song in my head every time I see the thread also

Goalcreas: Sure, send me a PM. That will be great, thank you!


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

It's alive! The plumbing is finally working!

Here is the complete set up, in the relative safety of my bathroom:










The problem was the stupid venturi I added to the reactor. If anyone is thinking of doing this, I had to reduce the hose down to 3/4 OD at the point of the venturi nozzle before it would work. Even then, it required a lot of playing with the depth of the nozzle, and still won't work until the reactor is nearly full of water.

Here is a shot of the venturi in action, sucking CO2 bubbles out of the top of the reactor:










I'm ready for plants, hopefully my shipment at the LFS will arrive soon!


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## Sparg93 (Mar 31, 2008)

cool start, def post more pics


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

So glad to see you have a professional checking on your system there. He really looks like he's hands on! 

I don't understand the whole venturi thing so your expert there is pretty impressive!


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

The "expert's" name is Rupert, and he is 10 lbs of mischief bottled in a 5 lbs kitten:snakeman:

If you are interested in the venturi, it is written about here:
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/3444-dual-venturi-diy-external-co2-reactor.html
The short version is that it makes the reactor work better.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Plants!

















They're not the plants I wanted, but I was getting impatient! When I saw the downoi, I knew it was time to get the tank started.

Apparently, this is what downoi looks like emersed, ugly as anything









Keep in mind, all these plants are place holders until they can be replaced by the ones I want, but I think the general idea gets across... Here it is, complete with six inch downoi









My LFS promises Toninas and UG next week, so there are some spots set aside for them... Look for more updates soon!


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## GlitcH (Aug 21, 2006)

wow that is emersed downoi? 
Talk about a 180, I guess it grows alot quicker emersed?

Anyway........it's about time this ball gets rollin!


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## jasonc (May 2, 2008)

Minsc said:


>


Mind that I point out something? Your DWs are a bit too low level, try add in more DW or higher DW.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Are you sure thats Downoi? It looks to be some emersed plant I saw somebody posting for sale here on the forum.
It just doesnt look anything like it.Hmmm?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Looks like this kinda..No?


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Here is the same ugly weed:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-id/50604-new-here-plant-id.html#post383617
I'm sure that it is emersed Pogostemon helferi indeed, and that Your weed will produce shoots with wavy leaves!

Bye
Heiko


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## oregon aqua (Jan 30, 2008)

ok ive watched the tropica video a couple of times. i dont see that weed anywhere. i also have downoi in my emersed set up and it doesnt look like that either. in fact the only difference i have in emersed growth is the leaves are brighter and thicker. 

that plant you show looks soooooooo familiar. but i pretty sure its not downoi.


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## KRiley (Jun 30, 2005)

Cool looking tank! Cant wait to see it when it fills in.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

true emergent grown downoi takes the forum you see in orlandos photo I buy plants from florida aquaric nurseries which grows 99.9 % of their plants emmersed and thats thats what it arrives looking like the submersed form is a lot more prolific looking


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## frozenbarb (Feb 8, 2007)

jazzlvr123 said:


> true emergent grown downoi takes the forum you see in orlandos photo I buy plants from florida aquaric nurseries which grows 99.9 % of their plants emmersed and thats thats what it arrives looking like the submersed form is a lot more prolific looking


So true emergent grown Downoi is called Crassula helmsii?? Because that is Robert's/Aquabotanic picture of Crassula helmsii AKA swamp stonecrop that he is selling. Which is a pond grass.
They are two different plants.

THIS is what Downoi looks like emerged http://www.wasserpflanzen-freunde.de/catalog/images/invitr-pogostemon-helferi.JPG

I don't know where everybody is getting their info from..
Minsc that is not Downoi you got there


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Yeah I think Orlando's photo is Robert's.
I bought a pot of that from Robert and I can tell you, not for sure, but I would almost bet everything I had it is not Downoi, I have lots of Downoi, none grown emersed, but I just don't see how it could be.
That pot Frozenbarb posted, now I can see that being emersed grown Downoi, that makes sense.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Wait, Minsc's pic, that might be, the leaflets look more like downoi then Roberts plant 50/50 maybe, maybe not


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

On the subject of whether it is in fact emersed downoi or not, Florida Aquatic says it is.










Perhaps the level of humidity affects the shape of the plant? Some of the leaves are elongated and have a bit of a ruffle similar to that of downoi.
At any rate, we shall see over the course of the next few weeks. If it does in fact convert to the submerged conditions and is the plant I want, it was a great deal. There were a ton of stems in those pots!

Random picture of Rupert:


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Huh. I just looked into it, and Orlando's pic is from the Aquabotanic thread, and yes, it looks exactly like the plant I have. However, the first pic in Robert's thread looks nothing like the plant I have...

It seems we have a mystery:-k

Goalcreas, care to share any pics or impressions of the plant you bought as C. helmsii?


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## oregon aqua (Jan 30, 2008)

well if worse comes to worse and its not downoi i can give you some of my emersed ones. if they survive my little humidity accident. i left the lid ajar. downoi is lookin sickly and my tropica crypt twigs are a little dry.

i tried to figure out that tom barr venturi but im still not 100% on how it works=0(


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it! At this point, I have no idea what will happen with the plant in my tank, but it will be interesting to watch!

As for the Barr venturi, I didn't really understand until I made it. Um, that is, the fourth time I made it and it actually worked


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

ill post a pic of the downoi i get from florida aquatic it looks just like orlandos pic and comes with the tag labeled pogostemon helferi Im 100% pousitive that it is. that emmersed pic you posted looks like downoi that was originally grown submersed and then switched to emergent conditions. Ill post a pic so you know im not crazy


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

frozenbarb said:


> So true emergent grown Downoi is called Crassula helmsii?? Because that is Robert's/Aquabotanic picture of Crassula helmsii AKA swamp stonecrop that he is selling. Which is a pond grass.
> I don't know where everybody is getting their info from..
> Minsc that is not Downoi you got there


i think you need to do you research on emergent plants before you post maybe that pic is of Crassula helmsii maybe it isn't but emergent downoi looks very very similar you see what im talking about when i post ive been dealing these plats for years now from the exact same source robert gets his plants from I know what im talking about


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## bratyboy2 (Feb 5, 2008)

wow we need to put the claws away...lol the tank looks good anyways let enjoy that instead of fighting about a plant:heh:


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## frozenbarb (Feb 8, 2007)

Well.. we'll wait to see how the tank grows first.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Minsc said:


> Huh. I just looked into it, and Orlando's pic is from the Aquabotanic thread, and yes, it looks exactly like the plant I have. However, the first pic in Robert's thread looks nothing like the plant I have...
> 
> It seems we have a mystery:-k
> 
> Goalcreas, care to share any pics or impressions of the plant you bought as C. helmsii?


I bought it before I found out I was moving, and since I am moving and am starting to tear down tanks, I have been giving most of the plants that I have taken time to collect and don't want to lose completly to a couple of friends that I KNOW CAN GROW them and keep aside some of the trimmings for me so when I am ready they can ship me care packages. I gave most of the Crassula helmsii away and never got a chance to plant it. I still have some but submersed in the pot it came in.
I will take a pic of it later today, I don't think it is the same as what you had pictured. I think they are different plants that look similar and I think yours is Downoi. I admit, it looks similar, but not totally alike. I think yours shows crinkled leaves in the new growth that is consistant with Downoi and the new growth of the Crassula helmsii is a bit different with no crinkle to the leaves. Not for sure however, because this is all I know about Downoi grown emersed????


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## frozenbarb (Feb 8, 2007)

Ok Im having other thoughts after viewing the pictures again. It well as might be fully emerge downoi. =p


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

OK, I went and looked at what is left of my pot of CRASSULA HELMSII and much to my surprise, it is absolutely 150% for SURE Downoi. There is no longer ANY DOUBT in my mind that Jazz is correct.
I don't know why we ever doubted him. I did not really doubt that downoi might be totaly different in it's emergent growth compared to is's submersed growth, but I didn't really think it possible that what was supposed to be a new foreground plant, Crassula Helmsii, ended up being downoi.


I am a little dissapointed that the CH is not a new plant to use, I was a bit excited about something NEW, but Oh Well.

Jazz, sorry for ever doubting you. You are a the man:hail:


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

Great tank!


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

goalcreas said:


> Jazz, sorry for ever doubting you. You are a the man:hail:


hehe great at leat yall know im not a nut now


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## rountreesj (Aug 14, 2007)

very nice!


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Here are pics of emerge flowering downoi on a German homepage:
http://heimbiotop.de/pfl.htm

http://heimbiotop.de/Pogostemon_helferi1.jpg
http://heimbiotop.de/Pogostemon_helferi2.jpg
http://heimbiotop.de/Pogostemon_helferi.jpg
http://heimbiotop.de/Pogostemon_Aehre.jpg
http://heimbiotop.de/Pogostemon_Aehre2.jpg


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## oregon aqua (Jan 30, 2008)

i was wrong so wrong..... i was looking at mt nano that in growing out emersed and my downoi has those weird leaves. they just started to grow after over a month of being emersed in my tank.


p.s. if i didnt say it before i like the tank!

Jeremy


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Thanks for the replies everyone. Without a doubt, it is definitely downoi, as much of it is converting to submersed growth already. I'm guessing these pots will be available country wide from anyone who carries FAN pretty soon.

Sorry if I'm doing a bad job responding recently, work is making me cranky...


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

By the way Jeremy, in case you are interested, Wet Spot currently has a really good plant selection currently and should be getting a shipment from ADA any day now, most likely tomorrow.
It has been confirmed they are getting UG, and some Toninas. 

I feel a bit weird pimping their store, since I work at Aquatic Maintenance, practically next door, but as I said, work is making me cranky:snakeman:


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

*Update*

My biological filtration has finally caught up with the ammonia, and consequent nitrites that the Aqua Soil has been leaching all this time.

That means, it's time to start adding fish!

These are the tanks first two inhabitants:









Right now they are about the size of full grown otos, so it is still to young to sex them. Hopefully they are male and female!

As for plants, my LFS FINALLY got in their rare plant shipment.
The selection was a bit sparse this go around, but there were some things I wanted.

This is $56 worth of plants. Ouch!









I'll take some tank shots later...


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## oregon aqua (Jan 30, 2008)

the wet spot is the only store i go to really. they have the best fish selection anywhere! they get some nice plants too.

they had UG in their little ada display tank. they thought it was killing the fish so they ripped it out and fed it to their bigger fish. so sad....


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## foofooree (Mar 11, 2007)

looks very promising! subscribed!


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Foofooree: Thanks!



oregon aqua said:


> they had UG in their little ada display tank. they thought it was killing the fish so they ripped it out and fed it to their bigger fish. so sad....


Yeah, they have told me all about how it was killing their fish! The employee had me freaked out for a while there!

All right, as promised, a new FTS, sorry about the window glare:










The Toninas have the spot of honor until they can be propagated a bit.

I need some plant ID help, this one was sold as Tonina Lago Grande. Can anyone verify/have any information about it? I couldn't get any T. belem just yet, and am hoping this is a good replacement.










This was sold as Eriocaulon mini, at first I thought it was a new name for cinereum, but now I'm not sure. Any help? If it is a different species, will it still do the matchstick thing?










Here is one of the BR's enjoying it's new home:


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## skewlboy (Jun 9, 2006)

Updated pic? Got my own E mini and it is sending up a spike - those are the flowers right?


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

You found some, that's great!
Yeah, I guess the matchstick looking spikes are considered a flower.
I have one as well:








These plants look absolutely stunning when healthy, one of mine has dedicated it's energy to new leaves, and is gorgeous! The picture doesn't really do it justice, it looks radiant!








I managed to get some info about propagating these plants here:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/65818-erio-thailand-big.html
Some good stuff here as well:
http://aquaticplantcentral.com/foru...-discussions/1954-propagating-e-cinereum.html

As for the tank, it is going pretty smoothly. I have lost a lot of the UG, I'm pretty sure mostly through being uprooted. What is left does look like there is a bit of new growth, so hopefully it will take off soon.
The tank still looks very immature, but it is moving along...


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Alright, update time!
The tank has been having some problems, it was almost overtaken by BBA, the Rotala magenta and HC almost died, the downoi stopped growing, it was pretty rough for a while.
I switched to CO2 misting through a maxijet with holes melted in the impeller, changed the flow pattern, and bumped the dosing up to 1 1/2x EI, and now everything seems to be turning back around.

The tank is still a bit messy, and is nowhere near finished, but I'm happy with it again

Full tank shot, ignore the wood with the java fern, that is being grown out for another tank:









The center from a different angle:









E. Taiwan and mini:









A new resident, and unhappy HC: 








Anyone know what the stem plant is? I never added it to the tank!

Tonina 'Lago Grande':









Tonina 'Belem':









Tonina fluviatilis:









Tonina fluviatilis "lotus" and normal:


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Another month, and I'm still losing HC and downoi, still having massive BBA issues, still adjusting my CO2 and flow patterns, and still thinking the tank is going to turn the corner and look great any day now

Most of the plants are looking great, and my erio minis are splitting again, so I must be doing something right, I just can't get it locked down.


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## ghengis (Jun 11, 2008)

I like this tank. Not because it's fantastically colourful, unbelievably healthy, or even on the cutting edge of design and inspiration... I like this tank, 'cos it looks real, down to earth and acheivable whilst working to an average persons budget. 
Thanks for sharing this one, mate, you're doing a great job!

...and I'm sure it will "turn the corner" in due course  Well done


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## foofooree (Mar 11, 2007)

Nice  I really like it  keep it up!


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## Torin (Sep 14, 2008)

Looks decent, but messy as you said.


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## gravy9 (Aug 28, 2008)

Very nice tank. However, I think that you focused a bit too much on the center as it seems to be balanced equally on both sides.

It should start taking better shape in a couple of months and goes through a trimming cycle.

Keep up the good work.

regards,
Ravi


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

I've been adding a number of upgrades in lighting and plumbing to try to get this tank under control.
I'll start another thread to show the new set up when it is totally finished, but for now, I wanted to give a teaser of my new evening lights


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## foofooree (Mar 11, 2007)

Wow! What great growth! It's a beauty for sure


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