# I would like to make a CRS grading guide.



## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

It's been really frustrating trying to find grading info on CRS. I've gathered pieces of info from forum posts and the various guides out there, yet with the hours of research put in, there's still much more to learn. 

It's all fine and well for people to say a tiger tooth with 4 bands is such and such of a grade, but they don't consider that many people don't know what a tiger tooth is or even which bands are being referred to. It's hard to describe without a picture and even when there are pictures there is no detailed description, etc... 

I want to get very in depth and do something comprehensive as I am a very detail oriented person, so if you have the time and are so inclined to help I would love to hear from you.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

A start.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> It's been really frustrating trying to find grading info on CRS. I've gathered pieces of info from forum posts and the various guides out there, yet with the hours of research put in, there's still much more to learn.
> 
> It's all fine and well for people to say a tiger tooth with 4 bands is such and such of a grade, but they don't consider that many people don't know what a tiger tooth is or even which bands are being referred to. It's hard to describe without a picture and even when there are pictures there is no detailed description, etc...
> 
> I want to get very in depth and do something comprehensive as I am a very detail oriented person, so if you have the time and are so inclined to help I would love to hear from you.


Do you have experience breeding them?I lost count on how many forums you have asked this and I have not seen many responses. The link turbo provided is a pretty good guide.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

milalic said:


> Do you have experience breeding them?I lost count on how many forums you have asked this and I have not seen many responses. The link turbo provided is a pretty good guide.


Hi Pedro,

What's wrong with posting this on multiple forums? Why even bring it up?

Overall there hasn't been much response that's helpful, but it has prompted discussion, so why don't you join in and help out since I know you have some experience. It's much more productive that way. Or as my momma told me if you don't have anything nice to say...

No, I haven't bred them yet. I talked with you about buying some remember? You have some nice shrimp.

You guys are offering me a link that suffers from the problems I am complaining about in this very thread. I appreciate the effort Turbo, but it doesn't help my cause.

I've spent hours on this and seen just about every english guide out there.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I think the link Turbo linked to actually is pretty helpful..... maybe add some more in-depth description with some photshopping pointing out the different traits.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Another problem you will find is that grading for CRS has mostly come from Japan and Singapore, I think. And I'm guessing a lot of what they do is face to face. Going to an LFS' in Japan can be a social event. The one I go to the most has a table and chairs right in the middle. Last time I was there I was offered coffee and asked to sit for a while...and they didn't even speak English!


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> Hi Pedro,
> 
> What's wrong with posting this on multiple forums? Why even bring it up?
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with posting in different forums, just pointing out that you have not found anything helpful. I now understand more why you want a very detailed CRS guide, as you have not breed them before and want to better understand the grading guide.

The best grading guide you will find is at shrimpnow.com. It is the most up to date you will find. It doe snot exactly points out what a tiger tooth, v-ban, etc is.

To make the type of guide you want, the person will have to have access to pictures from different grades, either owning the shrimp and pictures themselves or getting authorization from other people. 
This is hard to do from someone here in the USA. I do have some very nice CRS up to SS and almost mosura but above that I currently have none.

-Pedro


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

Yeah, I haven't really found much help. I need someone with experience who's willing to share information.

Boy, you guys are really pushing that guide :wink: There's some good info in it and it's a nice reference if you already know that basics, since it will keep you on track as to what's current. However, I am looking to make a guide for newbies.

Yes, I would need some pictures to make it a truly helpful guide.

I don't see how breeding them has anything to do with the guide. Alot of breeders, especially in the USA just buy a bunch of a certain grade and start breeding them and sell them as that grade. They don't know all that much about the grading scales either, so a guide would help breeders as well. Unless they know how to talk and they tell you what grade they are, that would certainly help  

If I buy some fance guppies and throw them in a tank and they breed, would that educate me about guppy strains?

Your shrimp are nice and I plan on contacting you when I am setup for them. Unfortunately it has taken longer than expected to make room for them here.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> Yeah, I haven't really found much help. I need someone with experience who's willing to share information.
> 
> Boy, you guys are really pushing that guide :wink: There's some good info in it and it's a nice reference if you already know that basics, since it will keep you on track as to what's current. However, I am looking to make a guide for newbies.
> 
> ...


I bet you, serious breeders(very few in the USA) know the grading system and those really are the ones who are ahead of the pack. Not everyone that buy shrimp and breed them can be consider a successful breeder or someone that knows the grading system.

A grading system will be available soon. Not sure in how many of the different sites, but there is someone already working on it. It takes time to collect the information and pictures to do it.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

milalic said:


> I bet you, serious breeders(very few in the USA) know the grading system and those really are the ones who are ahead of the pack. Not everyone that buy shrimp and breed them can be consider a successful breeder or someone that knows the grading system.
> 
> A grading system will be available soon. Not sure in how many of the different sites, but there is someone already working on it. It takes time to collect the information and pictures to do it.


Yeah, Mustafa on petshrimp, Silane on Shrimpnow, and the guys at planetinverts said they are working on more elaborate guides. Silane said he was starting his in response to my post prompting discussion on the matter.

Who are these serious breeders? I would like to know. I don't see anyone offering CRS other than a few people here and there. Some on aquabid seem a bit larger.

You said "Not everyone that buy shrimp and breed them can be consider a successful breeder or someone that knows the grading system."

Isn't that what I had said? Although I would add that if they breed them they are successful at creating offspring, so I'm not sure what you mean there since you didn't specify.

So do you know the grading system? And if so, why not help out?

I'm not sure why this info is such a mystery all the time. And how do people get to know the system if noone ever shares it?


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

I just went looking for information, and turned up this site:
http://www.tonina-forest.net/tonina/crs/crs08.htm
It's got plenty of picutures with labels, but unfortunately I can't read it!

BTW, I know nothing about the grading of these shrimp, so I'm quite interested in a guide if it comes out. I am still in the dark on the meaning of "hinomaru" and "tiger tooth" and "no entry" and.... I've tried searching google and here, but haven't happened to find a list of definitions.

Natalie


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

An example of a translation page.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

Yeah, I've seen that one as well.

The pics are very nice, but even with the translation it will help people very little.

No grading experts care to help?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

You can try the speciality shrimp forums. SN and PS...not sure if I'm allowed to post links here.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks Epic.

But let me say this again...I've looked just about everywhere, spending hours and hours upon days upon days. So I've seen most of the info that's likely to be found.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Have you actually asked Silane or someone to work with you? I would think with Shrimpnow's pictures plus the other one's diagrams should be enough to get a decent guide together.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I think silane has posted a guide over at planetinverts.com not super descriptive as one would want but enough to get by on.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

eklikewhoa said:


> I think silane has posted a guide over at planetinverts.com not super descriptive as one would want but enough to get by on.


ask questions in the thread specific to what you want to know. the guide is at plentinverts.com


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

milalic said:


> ask questions in the thread specific to what you want to know. the guide is at plentinverts.com


I know where it is and I think it's pretty good myself....just saying that it's not super descriptive ie....this is what a tiger tooth is etc.... but I think the multiple pictures help you distinguish the difference and one should be able to tell the difference between two pictures.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

milalic said:


> ask questions in the thread specific to what you want to know. the guide is at plentinverts.com


I don't get your guys. That's the same guide we have been talking about...it's from shrimpnow and was posted over at planetinverts.

And yes, like I said I was already in contact with Silane.

And do you really think a newbie could figure out what some of these features are by comparing 2 pics of very similar looking shrimp?

If anyone would like to contribute I would love to hear from you, but please read the posts in the thread first. It makes things go alot faster for everyone that way. It's just a time waster when people just glance over the thread and post indiscriminately...as you can see the same thing keeps getting posted again and again.

Milalic, care to answer any of the questions I posed to you?


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

aman,
I think the point is that we all started as newbies and believe that what has been presented has been enough to get us going. Would you care to share a link to what you've talked about?

I found this, but nothing with Silane. Then again, I didn't look extremenly hard on Shrimpnow.


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## jdigiorgio (Jan 29, 2004)

Just wanted to say that I personally do not see what the big deal is with the grading. The more the white the higher the grade. White has to be white and not see through. The more you complicate matters, the more room there is for interpretation. You have your C, B, A, S, SS, SSS, going from lowest to highest grades. 
Once you get to A and above there are certain different distinctions and characteristics, such as say "no entry". This looks like a street sign in europe that tells people do not enter. A "V" band is just that a band around the body of the shrimp that looks like a "V".

Aman you are obviously new here and welcome. However I have been reading over a few of your post and just wanted to ask why so confrontational?

You asked me about my shrimp in another post. All I wanted to do were show pics of my shrimp, not debate genetics....

Anyway in my opinion a grading guide will only help if kept simple. Of course you rarely get the camera that can pic up all the color or lack of. So it really needs to be kept simple. Deep reds and bright whites...bottom line.


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks to whoever posted the link to planetinvertebrates.com--I found that the "crystal red" page answered most of my own newbie questions like "what's a tiger tooth." There's a list of common terms, defined, at the bottom of the article.

http://www.planetinverts.com/Crystal Red Shrimp.html

Natalie


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## Paid (Feb 5, 2007)

Thanks Natalie, that was a very helpfull link.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> I don't get your guys. That's the same guide we have been talking about...it's from shrimpnow and was posted over at planetinverts.
> 
> And yes, like I said I was already in contact with Silane.
> 
> ...


In the thread at planetinverts.co I explained what some of the futures are like tiger tooth, vband, etc.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

NatalieT said:


> Thanks to whoever posted the link to planetinvertebrates.com--I found that the "crystal red" page answered most of my own newbie questions like "what's a tiger tooth." There's a list of common terms, defined, at the bottom of the article.
> 
> http://www.planetinverts.com/Crystal Red Shrimp.html
> 
> Natalie


From the article:

S+ grade terminologies:
4 WHITE vs 3 WHITE = number of white bands counting from the head of the shrimp
EYES(Maru) = the white dots on the red carapace, there could be up to 6 white dots.
Tiger Tooth = red fang like shape seen from one side of shrimp on 2nd red band from the head, could be with 2 tips or 1 tip
V-band = A V shape on the 2nd red band from the head.
White Moustache = the antennules appear white
White tail = the tail appears fully white
HINOMARU = Red dot on the 2nd red portion from the head. Japanese flag like, "HI" means sun, "MARU" means circle.
NO ENTRY = Red dot with a white line on the 2nd red portion, which looks like a "no entry" road sign."
CROWN = semi white circle encircling one red dot on the anterior carapace.

-


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

Explanation of the tiger tooth is a little off. The "tiger tooth" is the white "dash" between the 2nd and 3rd white stripe. A small tiger tooth is a smaller white "dash", a big tiger tooth is a big white "dash". The "tiger tooth" is the white part not the red part. Some shrimp have a clear area where the tiger tooth might normally be. The red may still looks like a "fang", but it is not a tiger tooth without the white part.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

Yeah that's what I noticed too....tiger tooth is the white "tooth" like marking that is in the red band.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

ianiwane said:


> Explanation of the tiger tooth is a little off. The "tiger tooth" is the white "dash" between the 2nd and 3rd white stripe. A small tiger tooth is a smaller white "dash", a big tiger tooth is a big white "dash". The "tiger tooth" is the white part not the red part. Some shrimp have a clear area where the tiger tooth might normally be. The red may still looks like a "fang", but it is not a tiger tooth without the white part.


Thanks, this is the kind of info needed to make a comprehensive guide.

Care to help the effort?


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> Thanks, this is the kind of info needed to make a comprehensive guide.
> 
> Care to help the effort?


I do not see the difference between what the article has and what ianwane wrote apart from the fact that ian's explanation is correct and the one in the article is not.

from the article(wrong) :Tiger Tooth = red fang like shape seen from one side of shrimp on 2nd red band from the head, could be with 2 tips or 1 tip

from ian: The "tiger tooth" is the white "dash" between the 2nd and 3rd white stripe. A small tiger tooth is a smaller white "dash", a big tiger tooth is a big white "dash".

The rest of his explanation, i see it as a way to clarify the error in his article.

I still have a hard time figuring out what you want in a CRS grading guide. I think between the article. and the grading guide available in planetinverts and shrimpnow most of the information is available.

Regards,
Pedro


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

I agree Pedro, everything else is right. There will always be variations with each breeder on white intensity though. There is really no good way to keep the grading uniform for white intensity. That for the most part will always be a bit subjective. That is why you need to ask for pictures before you buy any high grade shrimp.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

milalic said:


> I do not see the difference between what the article has and what ianwane wrote apart from the fact that ian's explanation is correct and the one in the article is not.


I guess I see a big problem with one being correct and the other incorrect.



> I still have a hard time figuring out what you want in a CRS grading guide. I think between the article. and the grading guide available in planetinverts and shrimpnow most of the information is available.


The planetinverts article is the first I've seen that actually attempts to explain what the features are. It should be much better when pictures are added if they point out the features and characterisics. Once again though, an article like at shrimpnow that simply says tiger tooth, vband etc... and then shows 4 different shrimp with different qualities will not help a newbie. I don't know how you can't see this. These things are easy for you to see as you are already knowledgable.

And what about the interaction between coloring and features that give a shrimp a certain grade? Some shrimp can be the same in color, but may jump a grade or get a "plus" designation because of features and the rarity of those features. Information like Hinomaru is automatically SS, etc... I've seen no thorough explanation of this anywhere.

I see no mention of Mosura, Maro-Ten, "plus" one line, one-sided, tippex, W Hino, etc...

If you are a newbie you aren't going to know what "W Hino" is. You may find out after poking around that "W" is short for double, but the idea of a guide is to put all the info in one spot. I don't understand why people insist on questioning my reasoning for a guide and continue to not answer direct questions. There are plenty of people asking these questions and agreeing with the idea for a better guide, yet noone with the knowledge willing to contribute.

Do you think a newbie knows what a Carapace is? Sure, if they stumble upon that pic pointing out shrimp anatomy they might, but the idea is for a guide.

Even something so basic as 3 vs. 4 white bands is hard to determine when looking at the tail area. I've seen that question asked many times.

I asked for help since some of the grading is subjective so it would have been nice to have the knowledge of some breeders and from people with pics.

Forums are at there best when they share knowledge, not question people's efforts. You could always try answering questions instead of posing them.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

I just saw this post by you Milalic

The info you gave isn't in any guide and is one that alot of people ask about and you were able to answer it, so just as easily as you can say to me that you don't see why a guide is needed I can just as easily ask you how you can possibly see that one isn't.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> I just saw this post by you Milalic
> 
> The info you gave isn't in any guide and is one that alot of people ask about and you were able to answer it, so just as easily as you can say to me that you don't see why a guide is needed I can just as easily ask you how you can possibly see that one isn't.


I have not said a guide is not needed. I have encourage you to ask more specific questions because a comprehensive guide is something that will take a lot of time and effort. There are many different features. The guide is for people to have a basic knowledge and at least recognize some of the basic differences between a B, A, S, SS shrimp.

I encourage you to ask specific questions in the thread to get a better understanding.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

milalic said:


> I have not said a guide is not needed. I have encourage you to ask more specific questions because a comprehensive guide is something that will take a lot of time and effort. There are many different features. The guide is for people to have a basic knowledge and at least recognize some of the basic differences between a B, A, S, SS shrimp.
> 
> I encourage you to ask specific questions in the thread to get a better understanding.


Not once did you ask me to ask specific questions in this thread. You repeatedly mentioned other guides and said all the info is out there already. That certainly implies that you don't think a guide is needed.

However, I repeatedly asked you questions that went unanswered. I also asked if you would help several times, no reply from you.

And in my more recent post I got more specific, again, no answers. Read my original post, where I asked the people who would like to help to let me know.

I'm not going to go through the time to post all of the criteria for the guide when I don't have anyone willing to help, I don't have that kind of time to waste.

You have no obligation to help, but please don't make untrue statements.


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## mossman (Sep 22, 2004)

I have been keeping CRS for many years and would understand a newbies quest to understand CRS grading and features.

But it is not easy for anyone whom does not put their hands on CRS keeping, especially to understand how the grading come from and why this features is more expensive then others. Well, one have to understand that all the grade and price voice down to scarity.

Even I have large number of CRS with different patterns, I find it exhausting to take picture to describe all, let alone members trying to decribe features with words to help each others.

Anyway, see the heart pattern










Have peace.


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## mossman (Sep 22, 2004)

aman74 said:


> I'm not going to go through the time to post all of the criteria for the guide when I don't have anyone willing to help, I don't have that kind of time to waste.


How do you want people to help you?


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

aman74 said:


> I'm not going to go through the time to post all of the criteria for the guide when I don't have anyone willing to help, I don't have that kind of time to waste.


What do you mean by "criteria" for a guide? Why not just start making your guide, and ask for feedback?

I imagine some folks are overwhelmed by how general your request is--"help me make a guide." You might get better results by either posting a guide and asking for critiques/criticism, or by making your help requests more specific. ("What is a tiger tooth?" "Will someone let me use a picture of a tiger tooth on their shrimp?" etc.)

Natalie


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> Not once did you ask me to ask specific questions in this thread. You repeatedly mentioned other guides and said all the info is out there already. That certainly implies that you don't think a guide is needed.
> 
> However, I repeatedly asked you questions that went unanswered. I also asked if you would help several times, no reply from you.
> 
> ...


I made this statement in the thread:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/?p=291932&postcount=18

I just quoted the wrong person. I am not making untrue statements. I am trying to help out and you seem a little too confrontational in your posts.

I believe that the needed information is there for the average CRS buyer, people who buy A and S shrimp.

People are not going to help if you do not post what you want to see on the guide.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

NatalieT said:


> What do you mean by "criteria" for a guide? Why not just start making your guide, and ask for feedback?
> 
> I imagine some folks are overwhelmed by how general your request is--"help me make a guide." You might get better results by either posting a guide and asking for critiques/criticism, or by making your help requests more specific. ("What is a tiger tooth?" "Will someone let me use a picture of a tiger tooth on their shrimp?" etc.)
> 
> Natalie


Exactly what I have been trying to say...we need more specific questions.


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

milalic said:


> I made this statement in the thread:
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/?p=291932&postcount=18
> 
> ...


There's nothing there, but I assume you are referring to the post where you quoted someone else and told them to post questions in a thread at planetinverts.com. I don't see how this addresses the points I made.

If you re-read the thread and look at our most recent posts you will see that you were most certainly making untrue statements in regards to this thread.

I am not confrontational, just straightforward and honest. I find it confrontational when someone questions why someone wants to do something instead of just remaining out of the thread or actually answering questions in the thread.

In my experience on forums, if you post more than a few questions at a time, people will respond with something very general trying to educate you on something you already know. They like to make assumptions on what you do or do not know based on the subject matter and not on your specific questions. Or they just like to hear themselves talk, but aren't really looking to answer something specific. This is why I stayed away from listing every question until I found some people who wanted to contribute. And the way this thread has turned out shows that it hasn't been any different so far.

Also, to the most recent posts requesting more specific questions, how could I expect them to be answered when the ones I have posted in this thread have not been addressed? So why would I add more?

I believe people are well intentioned, but I won't stand for someone calling me confrontational when they have consistently avoided answering questions regarding CRS and the questions I posed regarding there criticism of this thread.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I saw a poster that labeled the difference on aquabid.....from Japan..... maybe it's time to lay some money on it


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> There's nothing there, but I assume you are referring to the post where you quoted someone else and told them to post questions in a thread at planetinverts.com. I don't see how this addresses the points I made.
> 
> If you re-read the thread and look at our most recent posts you will see that you were most certainly making untrue statements in regards to this thread.
> 
> ...


I've been trying to help you out and have not avoided answering your questions. I see a few that I did not answer like what is the name of the breeders, etc...I do not think this add anything to the thread.

Straight out and honest can sometimes be confrontational depending on the wording you use. But this thread is not a discussion for this, it is about your desire to do a CRS guide.

I think I have been one of the ones who have answered most of your posts with something useful(or at least I think it is useful). I even have started a poll to see what people think about the guide, etc.

Look through this thread and the one at planetinverts.com. I have clarified some of the things in the guide there and also in plantedtank.net if I am not mistaken.

http://www.planetinverts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209

at plantedtank.net I believe you have the answer on what is a tiger tooth. I am still confident that what I have done is not what you want, because I have no idea how in depth you want the gude to be.

There are no pictures that point to the feutures, but you might want to ask the people that own the pictures in the guide to let you help out with this.

I think you need to be more proactive in this and not criticize(?) so much.
So do not give up, just be more specific on your questions and tone down on the negative criticism. 
Try just to post in one of the three sites(I suggest planetinverts) and then copy your findings, guide, etc to other sites.

Cheers


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## aman74 (Nov 13, 2006)

Pedro, you seem like a nice guy with good intentions, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree at this point.

The main thing is that your input here was not so much about helping my guide out, but pointing out that all the info is out there already. Often times in life people want to help, but only if you do things the way they think it should be done. I think if you read through the thread with an open mind you will see this. 

It's easy to then say that those issues aren't what the thread is about when I was only addressing posts that you made in my information gathering thread.

A question about the breeders does help my cause out, but you felt it did not. So there is a good case in point example right there. I also asked about maro-ten, tippex, etc...

This is very hard to do over the internet, I'm sure if we were on the phone or sharing a beer in a pub we could get much accomplished in a very short amount of time.

That's why I started this thread the way I did. Asking specifically in advance if people are willing to help and noone to this date has expressed an interest, besides yourself, but that unfortunately was only after much ado about nothing.

When I get involved in an endeavour I strive to be the best at it, and that means knowledge and experience. I have quite a bit of information, but some is incomplete or just needs confirmation. Once I get some shrimp a few more things will fall into place and then I can take some pictures as well, but of course I probably won't have every type of shrimp to photograph.

Maybe I will start posting one question at a time inviting anyone who wants to tell there opinion and offer a picture that they are willing to let me use.

Maybe once the new guides from planetinverts, shrimpnow and petshrimp are complete there will be less of a need. Not sure if those guides will materialize or not though.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

aman74 said:


> Pedro, you seem like a nice guy with good intentions, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree at this point.
> 
> The main thing is that your input here was not so much about helping my guide out, but pointing out that all the info is out there already. Often times in life people want to help, but only if you do things the way they think it should be done. I think if you read through the thread with an open mind you will see this.
> 
> ...


I know we are not going to agree. And yes I do pointed out other guides out there, because when I read your initial post I did not understodd how in depth you wanted the guide to be(I might still don't know). I will not post a list of breeders here because I feel each of them if interested should contact you or post here. I do not want to post their names here and they start getting pms, etc from everywhere.

I think one of the problems is that the same question is posted on many forums. I would like to dedicate the same amount of time to them, but I can not. I usually spent more time around here and in planetinverts.

I still think I have been helping 'your guide' at planetinverts. Some of the information you want are patterns that are very specific which I have not seen pictures and do not own at the moment. I do ask you to keep asking questions in planetinverts in the thread for CRS guide.

Cheers


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