# [Wet Thumb Forum]-NOOB....Need some guidance



## Xander (May 23, 2005)

Hello, this is my first post and had a few questions reguarding a planted tank. I was wanting a heavily planted tank without a CO2 setup. Is this possible? I am either goin to get a 38 or 45 gallon tank. Here are some of my questions:

LIGHTING: What would is best without CO2, MH or PC? I was either debating between 1-175 watt MH (6500K) or a 96X2 PC setup (1-5500K & 1-50/50)

SUBSTRATE: What is the best way to go here? Ecco complete?

Filtration: I was kinda wanting no to go with a canister. Would a HOB powerfilter or 2 be good enough? Also, what kind of flow is reccomended in a planted tank?

LIVESTOCK: I am wanting to keep small tropical fish in this tank. But I noticed that a lot of people on here don't have plecos. Is there any reason for this?

MAINTENANCE: What kind of maintenance is required on a planted tank besides water changes? What kind of supplements should i invest in too?


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Welcome! First, I'll suggest reading through www.rexgrigg.com. Lots of good FAQ-like data on the entire planted tank experience.

Second, based on your lighting, substrate and supplement comments, it seems like you want to go high-tech on most things, but not have CO2. Why is that? It seems to me like some of your thoughts are at-odds with one another.

Finally, if you do want more of a low-tech solution, you might want to check out the 'El Natural' section of these boards. You'll likely find more non-CO2 folks following those threads.

Good luck!
Brian.


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## MyraVan (Feb 13, 2005)

It most certainly is possible to grow nice plants without CO2! But if you want to go without CO2, you should limit yourself to about 2WPG (watts per gallon), ie 90W for the 45 gallon tank. If you have more lighting, you need to have more ferts and CO2 to keep things in balance, else all you'll grow is lots of algae (algae area more easily able to take advantage of an excess of one thing or another).

Substrate: well, I have two tanks with soil + gravel substrate. This has the davantage of being very inexpensive and growing plants very well. The disadvantages are that when you pull up or replant plants, it stirs up the bottom and the soil takes a few hours to settle out, so you have cloudy water for awhile. Also, you'll probably get yellow water (like you would if you used blackwater extract in your tank, it's the same stuff) for the first few months of the life of the tank. 

I don't know anything about canister filters. My biggest tank is 20 gallons and I have only ever used HOBs.

If you follow the El Natural approach, then water changes are about all you need to do. Many El Ntural enthusiasts would claim that you don't even need to do much of that, but I don't feel confident in going without water changes...

No plecos? Probably because the big ones uproot plants. But little ones like birstlenose, should be good (I don't have one so can't say for sure). Otocinclus are quite popular amongst people I talk to. I'm just waiting for the shop to get in a new order so I can get some.


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

ok, say i wanted to go with a pressurized CO2 system....what would i need? How bad are the pH swings too? Would this work: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9935&N=2004+113779 or is there something cheaper out there that i could go with?


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## pophead (May 7, 2006)

you could go with the pressurized system like the one on the link. but another option is a DIY co2 system. it's reletively easy but I would recommend reading up on it if you are building a DIY co2 system(it does have, well, explosive power







). you can probably find some info on this site but I would also recomend the krib, which has some good articles on DIY co2.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

xander, that is a good choice for pressurized co2. it has all you need except the co2 tank. 

another great place to look is ebay. search for milwalkee regulator or jbj regulator. you will find them to be cheaper probably.


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

What about my pH fluctuation? I was told that I should get a pH controler or my tank will crash. Is this true or can it be done semi-automatically?


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## Kyle V (May 8, 2005)

Xander, Welcome! I think Brian made a good point in asking what your planted tank goals are. If you're interested in a nice tank with some plants, but are not interested in the initial expense or worrying about fertilizers and dosing routines and constant maintenance, go low-tech. Get 2wpg of light, maybe think about a DIY CO2 system, and start that way...you can always upgrade later. 

On the other hand, if you are interested in really concentrating on plants (believe it or not, it's possible for fish to be second class citizens in a fish tank), have a relatively healthy budget, and are willing to invest the time, go high-tech. Get the big light (I highly recommend AH Supply - maybe the 2 x 96 watt Bright Kit for a 45g), get the pressurized CO2 (Russell's advice about looking into Milwaukee or JBJ is good), GET the canister filter (less surface agitation = better), get the ferts, and go crazy...I'm new at this too, and I went high-tech, and it's amazing. The plant growth, the 'technicality', the science...it's all so fascinating and rewarding.

As far as pH swings, your pH will be directly correlated to your CO2 level and your KH. When the lights go off, photosynthesis slows down, the plants use less CO2, and your pH drops. There are legitimate arguments both ways, as to whether you should leave your CO2 on 24/7, or whether you should put it on a timer and turn it off with the lights. I found that in my case it's ok to run CO2 all the time....I think (although I might be wrong) that Brian and Russell leave theirs on all the time too. If you get a pH regulator it will tie in to your CO2, and shut the CO2 off when the pH drops to a predetermined level. My thought is that if your CO2 and pH are at a good level 2/3 of the way through your photoperiod, and then again right before you turn your lights off, that it's ok if things dip during the night...the added expense of the pH regulator just doesn't seem worth it.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

Right on Kyle. 

Xander first you need to decide which way you want to go and then we can be more detailed in advice. 

One thing about the PH controller, this would be the way to go if you had the bucks. It considered the top of the line set up.

IF you go with a DIY system keep you lights under 3w/gal and keep you tank small. Its hard to use DIY CO2 in tanks over 20gal. You can go bigger but the CO2 fluctuation will drive you nuts fighting algae.

Don't waste your money on a diffuser. You can get the same results with a ceramic air stone for a few bucks.

Let us know which way you go. We can point you to some better CO2 equipment.

Hawk


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies people...keep 'em coming! As far as my set up is conserned, I want a NICE planted tank with a lush green carpet over my subsrtate (so that you can't see my substrate). I want to keep my fish small, such as tetras and maybe a BN pleco. I was thinkin about gettin this lighting system: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=29623;category_id=1875;pcid1=1843;pcid2= OR http://www.hellolights.com/362xcoluaqde.html that would put me at 4.2 WPG. I was also thinkin about this CO2 system: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9935&N=2004+113779 I don't have the bucks to spend $400 on a fully automatic system. I was also thinkin about getting the Eheim 2026 for my filtration.

But I do want a VERY green. I'd like to have something like this: http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/199108494/m/731101326 or http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/199108494/m/9611019541 .....so please help me in my set up.

Thanks


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

Full disclosure...I added a pH controller (SMS122 for ~$100) just last week







. Previously, I was running CO2 24/7. My nightly pH swings were around 0.2 or 0.3. However, I struggled with a possibly flaky needle valve, so it was hard for me to fine tune and adjust my pH levels. I finally broke down and purchased the controller for easier pH adjustments and to possibly save just a little CO2.

Xander - I think you're looking at the right type of products. You could save a few $ if you want to DIY with www.ahsupply.com. If nothing else, read through the site as they have some good educational material on planted tank lighting. One thing I did note, one of the lights looks like it has a 50/50 actinic bulb. The blue portion is not optimal for plants, so you might want to steer away from that initially.


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

Well, it looks like i'm goin to go with this system: http://www.aquabuys.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=co2_set_dlx_05&Category_Code=i2&Product_Count=1 I've read up on it and seen great reviews on it. Not to mention that it is almost 50% less than the Dr. F&S version.

About the lighting, I don't have a canopy, and don't have the resources at the moment to build one. I was wanting to do an open top anyways with this setup too.

For rite now, all I know is that I want a nice carpet of hair grass. I haven't looked into stem plants yet. Suggestions?


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## Kyle V (May 8, 2005)

that co2 set up is perfect and insanely cheap! I shopped around when I bought my stuff, and you'd be hard pressed to find the individual components for that little. I'm still not sure you need to spend the extra $100 on the pH regulator, but that's up to you. Brian knows what he's doing and he got one...

I have the aquamedic 1000 and it's the best. you can build something similar for less, but it's sort of complicated (at least for me)...Hawk, don't you build your own reactors??? My only concern about the Milwaukee regulator is that it doesn't have a check valve...you can get one for a few bucks though. Keep that in mind.

As far as lighting, I honestly can't say enough about AHSupply...their 2x96 is $115, and you can EASILY (I did it), make a wood hood for under $20. The set up you linked to looks cool, but it's a lot of $$ and I doubt it's worth it unless you have cash to blow. The led lunar lights are cool, but not that cool....you mention you don't have the resources to build a hood...but check this out; http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4742/55hood/55hood.html. for the whole setup, from building the hood, to installing the lights, you'd need a saw, sand paper, a screw driver, glue, screws, some wood, electrical tape, and a knife...now that's the I don't have a single tool and am really stretching it version, but it can be done. If you have a circular saw, a drill, and some wire strippers you'll be golden...I built the hood in an afternoon and installed the 2x55w fixture in an evening. It's rewarding and comes out great.

Plants, now that's the fun part. Use your imagination, look through pictures of tanks, ask around, and read, read, read. With this set up your thinking of, you can grow anything. Check out http://www.tropica.dk/default.asp for ideas. They can't ship their plants to the US, but they're regarded as the best and they've got info on everything.


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

Well, i think i'm goin to go with the other setup and not the ahsupply.com one. I am in college and don't have any tools here. I do have A LOT at my parents' houses, but ironically they are both moving (divorced parents)....can i get by with a semi-automatic system if i used RO and neutral buffer? Or would I just be better off getting the fully automatic one?


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## Kyle V (May 8, 2005)

If by semi-automatic you're referring to the CO2 system, then yes, you can get by without the pH regulator. As long as your KH is at least 3+, you should be relatively protected from drastic pH swings. You'll really just need to get started and see how things work out. If you're pH is up and down, maybe you'll need to think about getting the pH regulator. If not, you're ok. As long as you have a good needle value, you should be able to get the CO2 to a level that you're comfortable with.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 20, 2004)

Kyle 
I also use aquamedic 1000. 
Two of them and I have one DIY that works just fine. 

Xander
Man that's a deal on the CO2 stuff. If I had some extra bucks I would get system. I really want to get a PH controller, but when I do I need to get a new regulator with a solenoid to use. I have beverage style regulators. I can really complain I got them free. 

Hawk


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

Well, my GH is 6* and my KH is 7-8*....is this bad or good form the tap? oh, and my pH is 9!!!!


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

My KH=7.5 and my GH=~12, so your values should be fine. That pH is a little screwed up though, as it frequently is just coming out of the tap. Let is sit out in a bowl overnight and test the pH again. If it is still 9, something else is amiss. Since 'aged' water should have a CO2 level close to 3 ppm, your pH should be closer to 7.8 given your KH level.


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## Kyle V (May 8, 2005)

My tap water has a really high pH too. It's not a big deal though because like Brian said, it mellows out pretty quickly. If you're concerned about it, fill up 5 gallon buckets the night before you want to do a water change. By the next day, the pH will be normal.


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## Xander (May 23, 2005)

well i let the water sit for 24 hours and the pH is at 8! can i still use my tap water or do i need to go with RO/DI?


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

May tap water is in the 7.8-7.9 range after sitting out. With the variability in test kits, 8 seems reasonable to me based on your KH results. I don't know of any reason not to use your tap water.


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## Kyle V (May 8, 2005)

ph 8 for tap water is fine, especially if you're adding CO2. I don't test my pH at every phase of 'water integration', but I do know that it's 9 right out of the tap, 7.8 after sitting, and 6.6 (morning), 6.8 (afternoon) once it's been in the tank for a day or so. The plants don't care, and I've been using it in fish tanks for years...i think as long as the pH stabilizes at an appropriate level in the tank you'll be all set. Any idea what the pH is of the water in your tank?


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