# Acclimating fish to a new tank?



## juan5pronto (Mar 17, 2007)

What is the best way to acclimate fish to a tank? I have heard that you just keep the fish in the bag and add water from the tank to the bag? Well let me ask how long do you do this and how much water do you add at one time and how long does this go on before you can add the new fish to the tank?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Many pet shops use tap water. Therefore, if you also use the local tap water, then you only need to equalize the temperature before introducing the fish. Also make sure that your tank's water is in very good condition (low nitrate, phosphate, etc). If the tank is new, then start out with one or two fish. Add a few more after one week. 

The key is to start out with healthy fish at the LFS. Ask the store to feed the fish. Pick only those fish with good appetite. I've never acclimated my fish, including baby cardinals (0.3"-0.5"), neons, and otos. Have only had one dead cardinal (transport) over the last twenty years.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

Depending on where I got them and how long they have been in the bag.....

either float and then net to the tank or drip acclimate.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

I dont really agree with furballi on the idea that if an LFS uses the same tap water that you would use, you are can be more confident that the fish are already acclimated to your tank. The reason I feel this way is because your tank can differ quite a bit from the LFS's tank for a number of reasons...one big one being that you may have plants, hence maybe Co2, minerals/suppliments, differeing substrate (if the LFS uses any in the first place), drift wood, etc... All items which can change the pH, Gh, TDS, etc... My experience has always been that I can change things quite a bit in my tank on one side of the room as compared to another tank in another corner, so there is certainly an even better chance that the LFS's water will be slightly different, if not quite a bit different. The idea is to acclimate your fish to your tank to reduce the stress on the fish, usually called osmotic shock. This is something that many people do not feel is all that important, if they are even made aware of it by an LFS employee, but I would say that not acclimating fish properly to your tank is high on the list for the reasons why new fish die suddenly...or become more apt to get Ich. Assuming that your tank is planted (because of the forum's 'theme'), I would venture to say that your tank is going to vary considerably from the LFS's (unless the LFS is keeping all of the fish you buy in planted tanks, which I have seen a few times in my area).

However, I agree that IF the LFS's tanks are highly similar to yours, you might be able to get away with just floating the bag. Personally, I wouldn't risk it, just in case, but I feel that it is a very good idea to discuss some water parameters with the LFS before you buy livestock from them. For example, I always ask the LFS what their pH levels are, typically anyways, if they are using hard or soft water, do they use salt, have they dosed any meds in the tank the fish I want is in and if so, what was the med and which fish had the issue. Generally, any information you can get from them will help you out quite a bit and I have found it has the added benifit of the LFS employee beginning to realize that I am more well informed about this hobby and not a customer who can be easily duped into buying a bunch of stuff I dont need. 

For me, I like the pseudo-drip method...meaning when I get the new fish/invert/plant/coral/etc home, I float the bag for about 20 minutes or so (to equalize temps), then open the bag, add some water from my tank and use my glass top or some other method of holding the bag up on the side of the tank so that it doesnt sink and let the fish and the LFS's water mix with mine. I do this about 3 or 4 times, depending on if the livestock is hardy or not, over the course of an hour to an hour and a half. I also found that keeping the lights off on the tank for the rest of the day until the next morning often helps new fish feel more secure and again, this reduces shock. Too add to that, if you research the fish you are going to bring home a little bit, then you should be able to know what type of environment it would do best in (e.g. needs caves, needs bunches of plants in areas, needs open swimming room, needs covers so it can't jump out, etc...) which will also goes a long way in helping your fish transition easier IMHO.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Some folks treat livestocks like a fine swiss watch. If both tanks use the same tap water, then the addition of CO2 should not lower the pH by more than one point. An established fish/plant tank should also have low level of nitrate, phosphate, potassium, etc. There are no other mysterious X factors that could kill new fish! People do 80-90% water change using tap water without any ill effect as long as the temperature is within one or two degree F.

I never introduce new fish directly to my community tank. Siphon the water from the community tank to a 5 gal arrowhead water jug. Put one of the sponge in the existing filter in this jug for biological filtration. Keep the fish in this quarantine jug for about 3 days.

Start out with *quality specimens* at the store. If they don't look good, then wait for the next batch of fish. Keep the bag temperature between 75 and 85F when transporting the fish home. Also cover the bag with a dark cloth to avoid excessive sun light. Per another post, I prefer to net new fish to the tank. Sudden fish death is often a result of a new tank or an inexperienced aquarist tinkering too much with the water parameter.

Most people DO NOT drip-acclimate new fish, because this technique is usually effective if there is a HUGE change in water chemistry. A good example would be very soft acidic rain water (5 to 6 pH) in the jungle of SA vs. hard +8.3 pH alkaline water from the Colorado river. When faced with such a large change in water chemistry, one should acclimate the livestock to the new water over a period of several days (not hours).

White spot is often caused by a rapid drop in water temperature. This can lower the fish's immune system, allowing the parasite to take hold.

There is no reason why a LFS should use anything else but tap water for fresh water fish.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> There are no other mysterious X factors that could kill new fish!


I disagree....just the type of substrate in one tank versus another can have a large impact on water chemistry. For example, if I have a crushed coral substrate and you have a gravel substrate, then our tanks will differ immensly even if we use the same water. To add to that...ask anyone who has a saltwater fish tank about how he or she acclimated his or her new fish (I know that there are others on this forum with salty tanks and can help verify this)....they will tell you that it takes a long time and the drip method or my lazier method is almost always used, even for inverts as hardy as snails. The point here is that even though all saltwater tanks are kept with generally the same parameters (e.g. all saltwater fish need a pH of about 8.4-ish, unlike the more adaptable FW fish, the saliinity is all relatively close to anohter tank, the temps are all within similar ranges, etc...), the need to acclimate new livestock is very important. Hence, there are tons of 'x-factors' which affect your fish versus mine.

Dont get me wrong, the comparison between freshwater fish and saltwater fish is broad at best, and in this case, an exaggeration, but for the few extra minutes it takes someone to acclimate fish using a drip method or the similar method I outlined is certainly worth lowering the risks of losing fish. I think anyone would agree with that...sort of like the couple seconds to put on a seatbelt is worth the trouble, even if you never have a car accident.



> White spot is often caused by a rapid drop in water temperature. This can lower the fish's immune system, allowing the parasite to take hold.


While true, this is often a mistated myth which implies that temperature change is the only, or one of just a few, causes for Ich (white spot). The temperature change just leads to stress, which opens the door for Ich to successfully host on a fish. Dont be fooled, Ich can occur at any temp. If this low temp thing was completely true, then goldfish would be extinct. Also, the immune system of a fish as it relates to an external parasite is not like one would imagine...it is really an issue of a fish's ability to produce a sufficient slime coat/stress coat to ward off the first contact with Ich. However, you are right, it is thought that fish who have had ich in the past generate an immunity to it via producing an anti-body (as some beleive anyways) much like we do for chicken pox.



> Keep the fish in this quarantine jug for about 3 days.


I agree, quarantine tanks are anyone's best defense for keeping display tanks healthy and disease free, however I dont think three days is really enough time to determine new fish are completely well and 'good' for adding to a main tank. Many experts usually suggest anything from two weeks to two months for quarantining new arrivals. In fact, I kept five rummy nose tetras in a quarantine tank for just over two and a half weeks now and they have just recently shown signs of Ich. The tank they are in is brand new and I can be confident in saying that it did not hold any other fish in the past, not to mention fish with Ich in the past.



> There is no reason why a LFS should use anything else but tap water for fresh water fish.


I know a few members of this forum from the Milwaukee can verify that at least two of the more well known LFS in this area (Aquatics Unlimited and Hoffer's Tropical Life Pets) use RO water for many of thier tanks, freshwater and otherwise. This allows them to keep and sell fish like discus even though they have a closed system which feeds all of their tanks at one time and just add trace elements back to that RO water. Again, that would be a good question to ask your LFS when you buy new fish.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I try to just keep it simple, so as to not take the fun out of the most enjoyable hobby I have ever been into. 

I make sure the fish I buy have been at the store and doing well, (not dying off) for a week or more. I buy them, float the bag in my tank for a half hour and then net them and put them in. 

I havent lost a fish yet, maybe Im just lucky..?


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> I havent lost a fish yet, maybe Im just lucky..?


No, could be that your LFS and you use similar water and keep similar tanks like was initially suggested. I am not saying it isnt possible, in fact, I used to do the same thing, but there is not much more difficulty in adding a bit of the tank's water to the bag while you are floating it. Keep in mind also that we are not talking about fish dying the instant they hit the water, it often times takes days, even a week or more, to see the full effects of poor acclimation. Also, acclimating well can also decrease the chances of finding Ich or other issues in your tank as well.

While I know that many people can and will say 'it always works for me', I like to take the approach to forums like this one as trying to help out anyone in a random sense. For example, yea, I know which LFS I can buy fish from and not quarantine them or acclimate faster, but that may not work at another LFS where I always take every precaution I can (Walmart would be the best example of that type of situation, and yes, I think you can buy fish from there and be ok in the long run, if you take the proper steps). My frame of mind as to livestock is one that tries to act rather than react, which is why, if you agree with that ideology, I feel that it is best to take preventative measures rather than stock your tank stand with meds and aquarium chemicals and such.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

1. No experienced fresh water aquarist is going to keep crushed coral as substrate.

2. I said "White spot is *often* caused by a *rapid drop* in water temperature. This can *lower the fish's immune system*, allowing the parasite to take hold". I have never seen white spot in an established aquarium unless there is a new infected fish or a sudden drop in tank's temperature. Let's not come up with these pie-in-the-sky theory without documented facts! If white spot can occur at any temperature, then why do so many people find +85F as an effective cure for white spot?

3. The 3 day rule is based on my years of experience in this hobby. 97% probability is good enough for me, because I rely on my observation to spot/select quality livestock. Noobs may want to bump to two weeks for 99% certainty.

4. A good LFS will keep the fish in water that's available for the majority of the customers. I would never buy discus from a store that uses RO water with trace elements because I DO NOT want the hassle of duplicating this water at home. Discus will thrive in 8.2 pH water with 10KH. The key is to maintain clean water. They DO NOT require "amazon rain water" to live a long happy life. All fish appreciate a stable water chemistry. For most people, stable water = tap water. KISS!


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

K20A2 said:


> I try to just keep it simple, so as to not take the fun out of the most enjoyable hobby I have ever been into.
> 
> I make sure the fish I buy have been at the store and doing well, (not dying off) for a week or more. I buy them, float the bag in my tank for a half hour and then net them and put them in.
> 
> I havent lost a fish yet, maybe Im just lucky..?


Nope, you're using common sense and the 95% certainty rule.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Furballi,

While I am trying not to assume that you are getting offended or overly passionate about my comments here, it is pretty clear that might be the case and so I would like to point out that you do not have to become defensive becasue of my, or anyone else's posts. That said....



> 1. No experienced fresh water aquarist is going to keep crushed coral as substrate.


This is an entirely untrue statement and in fact, many people, including myself, use crushed coral (CC) in a freshwater aquarium to varrying degrees. For example, I have a complete CC substrate in my cichlid fry tank right now and also have a little bit in the filter for my planted tank to help stabilize the Kh. The truth is that CC is often times the most preferred and/or recomended buffering (as in raising) 'tool' for freshwater tanks versus using a bunch of chemicals which can 'wear off' or be forgotten about.

While I realize that this forum is almost entirely focused on planted tanks, I dont think it is really fair to make such a general comment about Crushed coral since like I said, it is commonly used from what I have observed. IMHO, there is some level of responsibility for members on a forum to make sure that his or her comments are clear enough for the most new of the newbies to understand. I also understand that you could have meant that no 'freshwater planted aquarist' would use CC, but like I said, I felt compelled to point this information as evidence against your broad statement.

For some 'expert testimony', read the second bulleted comment on this site:
http://www.answers.com/topic/substrate-aquarium



> I said "White spot is *often* caused by a *rapid drop* in water temperature. This can *lower the fish's immune system*, allowing the parasite to take hold". I have never seen white spot in an established aquarium unless there is a new infected fish or a sudden drop in tank's temperature. Let's not come up with these pie-in-the-sky theory without documented facts!


You can look back to verify this, but I didnt say that cold water cannot be a factor in an Ich outbreak, I simply said it is not the only cause and really not the direct cause either. It is the stress from that temp change which weakens the fish. This myth, as was once pointed out to me by an expert on another forum, may have come about beacuse the most likely time for a fish to find itself in cold water is when it is being transported from the LFS to the owner's tank. Because of that, it would be almost impossible to tell if the stress which weakened the fishes' immune system was a direct result of the cold water, or high stress involved with being transported. To add to that, I am absolutely sure that you have never witnessed an ich outbreak of Ich in a tank which has had no livestock, foreign tank water, decor, or anything new added to it for over a month suddenly have ich infested fish in it after the power went out overnight and the water cooled. As I have said in my other posts, Ich is NOT always present in an aquarium and without a fish to host upon, it will simply die and not return until it is brought to the tank again somehow.

For expert testimony, read the second paragraph under the sub-heading entiteled "treating Ich" from these very very well known experts and owners of the 'largest online pet store in the US, if not the world:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1791&articleid=2421



> The 3 day rule is based on my years of experience in this hobby. 97% probability is good enough for me, because I rely on my observation to spot/select quality livestock. Noobs may want to bump to two weeks for 99% certainty.


First, it is the fish which are more prone to developing an illness, not the experience level of the aquarist. To say that you are so experienced as to have the ability to see Ich when it is in its free swimming stage is at least super human. Quarantine tanks are not a newbie 'must have' but rather a good idea for anyone.

Tons of 'expert testimony' on the suggested duration of quarantine for newly purchased fish:

Same article as the one for the idea that you can rid your tank of Ich...read the third bulleted comment under the sub heading of "preventing ich":
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1791&articleid=2421

An article posted on a website of the University of Floria detailing that while three days in quarantine may lessen the chances of having an Ich problem, it is not long enough to ensure any other issues or soon to be illnesses can be kept from a display tank (read the information under the sub heading 'prevention of Ich'):
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA006

Again, an article by those very very well known experts with the largest online pet store (read the last paragraph, under the sub heading of 'how long should I quarantine my fish?':
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=20

Here is an actual post on this very same forum, created by a senior member and replied to by a moderator, who by the way doesnt dispute the suggestion that even 2 weeks is not enough time for quarantine:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-for-the-planted-aquarium/16750-diseased-fish.html

Online 'experts' who also say two weeks is a more ideal amount of time for quarantine (read second bulleted comment under the sub heading "prevention"):
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ich.htm

Here is a guy who says 14 days is the best quarantine time (read third paragraph under sub heading 'freshwater quarantine procedure):
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Greco_Quarantine.html

Ironically, that very same article on an online pet store, giving additional creedance to the author being knowledgable since the store obviouly must trust him.
http://www.pets-warehouse.com/Fishmed4.htm



> A good LFS will keep the fish in water that's available for the majority of the customers. I would never buy discus from a store that uses RO water with trace elements because I DO NOT want the hassle of duplicating this water at home. Discus will thrive in 8.2 pH water with 10KH. The key is to maintain clean water. They DO NOT require "amazon rain water" to live a long happy life. All fish appreciate a stable water chemistry. For most people, stable water = tap water. KISS!


I am not sure how you know this...but have you actually varified that this is the case across the entire globe, not to mention your own area? Again, there are many variables between two tanks, yours and the LFS's, which can make a huge difference in the wa ter. If you still dont believe me about the crushed coral, they hopefully you would agree that driftwood, some river rock substrates, carbonate based rocks, and things of that nature can and will make a difference in water chemistry. Just to tie this into the planted tank 'theme', you are also very likely to have much more trace elements in the form of plant suppliments and fertilizers than the LFS does since in reality, any good LFS will keep their plants in a tank other than one with fish in it. That is also to say that some LFS dont use a substrate at all or keep any decorations or object in their tanks, so the changes can be even larger in your tank with substrate and whatnot.



> If white spot can occur at any temperature, then why do so many people find +85F as an effective cure for white spot?


They dont! At least not with the higher temp alone. As I 'proved' in my other thread about ich, the higher temperature only speeds up the lifecycle of Ich, meaning that the white spot will fall off of your fish faster. The thing to keep in mind is that like every single living in the world, ich will reproduce, which occurs just after it falls off of the host fish and settles on the substrate or decor/plants. At this point, they can reproduce in the range of thousands at a time, none of which you can see with your naked eye until they become white spots on a fish again. THIS is why aquarists have reoccuring Ich outbreaks in one tank even though they did not add any new fish or do anything which could bring ich to the tank. If you are having an issue with ich, which it sounds like you have had quite a bit in the past in order to generate such passionate opinions on the subject, you can put my ideas and information to the test by treating ich with a higher water temp, coupled with a med or salt, and continue treating the fish and overall tank for approx two or three weeks after the last white spot is gone. I all but guarantee that you will not have another Ich issue until you start adding new fish, adding water from another aquarium to yours, or otherwise re-contaminate your tank in many numerous ways. In fact, now that I think about it, you have posted quite a bit about how you have treated for ich in a few ways, not to mention detailing multiple experiences with ich, yet you are trying to convince people that you can safely quarantine in three days. If you were right, wouldn't you be less experienced with ich as a result?

In reply to your question here...if cold water makes ich appear on a fish, then how come goldfish and other cold water fish survive? In fact, I also know of tons of people who keep tropical fish in a cold water tank and they dont have ich. For example, how many people who are newer or unaware of the finer points to this hobby keep a Betta in a small bowl, sans heater? According to this site here, every single one of the bettas shown has a stated temp range in the tropical temps (75 to 86 to be exact), yet not everyone in the world has their betta die from ich. I have also seen, and I am sure others here have as well, maybe yourself included, guppies being kept in coldwater with goldfish and/or bettas which it is a 'proven fact' that fish which are kept at less than ideal temps become stressed from that, opening the door wide open for the cold loving ich to host on them and yet some people keep tanks like this for long periods of time without massive ich on the guppies.



> Let's not come up with these pie-in-the-sky theory without documented facts


So, I think your 'pie in the sky' theory is looking bleak considering that the information and ideas that I just outlined can very easily be found on the internet. In fact, all of those articles came up on the first two pages of a yahoo search using the key words quarantine procedures for freshwater fish. Again, please dont get offended or feel like I am picking on you because I am not and have no reason to since I dont know you at all.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> 1. No experienced fresh water aquarist is going to keep crushed coral as substrate.


Quite a sweeping statement. I have kept many fish in tanks with crushed coral in the substrate. All my Tanganyikan tanks had up to 25% Coral sand in the substrate to buffer the KH, GH and pH. They had plants in too.



furballi said:


> 4. A good LFS will keep the fish in water that's available for the majority of the customers. I would never buy discus from a store that uses RO water with trace elements because I DO NOT want the hassle of duplicating this water at home. Discus will thrive in 8.2 pH water with 10KH. The key is to maintain clean water. They DO NOT require "amazon rain water" to live a long happy life. All fish appreciate a stable water chemistry. For most people, stable water = tap water. KISS!


This assumes that the tap water is suitable and the LFS has the best of intentions. I'm sorry to say both of these aren't always the case. There are lots of great LFSs, but there are bad ones too. Some tap water, in this country especially, seems barely suitable to drink, never mind keep fish!
I think any stores reason for using tap water is actually cost based at first, they are after all businesses. I actually wouldn't buy fish from a store that used tap water for everything regardless of other factors. It's a bit like them saying "We only have tanks that are 15" long but we'll put any size fish in there."
MOST fish will adapt to other water conditions without seeming to mind, but as to whether all of them will live as long as they would in their natural water conditions that is another matter and something that's been debated before.
For a LFS, the fish won't be there long and shouldn't come to any harm short term in the 'wrong' water, long term this may not be true at all.

As to the original post I would mix the water the fish are in the bag in with that from the tank as I always believe 'better safe than sorry'. Why take the risk of shocking your new fish when you don't have to?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Crushed coral will continually *leach* carbonates into the water, especially if the pH is below neutral. The use of chemical is much more effective if there should be a need to buffer the water. Why? Because a large water change can quickly alter the water chemistry. It may take days or weeks for the coral to buffer the water. Chemical can do it in seconds. A small change in pH of +/- 0.5 is perfectly safe for fish. Again, frequent water change is much more beneficial to aquatic critters than rock steady pH due to high KH.

Most people in the US have safe drinking water. Therefore, this same water is also good enough for fish. I have +7 year old cardinals in hard alkaline water. Should I lose sleep if my cards didn't make it to 10? Dirty water kills more fish than not having the *ideal* water. I submit that if the local water is not suitable form most tropical fish, then you're not going to find many local fish stores. The average consumers will not fork over $ for a RO unit and chemicals to rebuild the RO water!

The goal of any experienced aquarist is to maintain a stable water chemistry. Having coral that leach carbonate 24/7 into the tank is *normally NOT* a good thing. One should strive to adapt the fish to the local water because most pet stores also use tap water for cost control, and wide compatibility with the *average* customers.

People go into business to make $. Why train the fish to live in that ideal water when most customers use tap water? From a consumer point of view...it's a good fish store if the fish live for at least six months.

There are many factors that could contribute to white spot. Sharp temperature drop is still the dominant mode of infection. My 3 day rule is based on the life cycle of white spot at 75F. If there is no visible white spot on the fish, then there is a very high degree of certainty that the fish is okay.

FROM THE SAME ARTICLE IN YOUR LINK:

Prevention of "Ich" is preferable to treating fish after a disease outbreak is in progress. All incoming fish should be quarantined for at least three days when temperatures are 75 to 83°F. At cooler temperatures a 3-day quarantine will be inadequate for "Ich" because of its lengthened life cycle. For this reason, and to prevent introduction of other diseases which have incubation periods greater than 3 days, a longer quarantine is strongly recommended. Three weeks is generally considered a minimum period for adequate quarantine of new fish.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Crushed coral will continually *leach* carbonates into the water, especially if the pH is below neutral.


> The use of chemical is much more effective if there should be a need to buffer the water. Why? Because a large water change can quickly alter the water chemistry. It may take days or weeks for the coral to buffer the water. Chemical can do it in seconds. A small change in pH of +/- 0.5 is perfectly safe for fish. Again, frequent water change is much more beneficial to aquatic critters than rock steady pH due to high KH.


This is not true and as Mr. Seeley pionts out, it is done quite often in cichlid tanks. In fact, using my cichlid tank (which is now my planted tank) as an example, I purposely overstocked the tank for agression reduction and would make large water changes without having any issues at all. I did that for over two years and honestly, never lost one cichlid, ever. These 'chemicals' that you talk about also do not last forever either and can wear off as quickly as they can take effect. This rapid change in pH or whatever you are trying to change is more detrimental to your fish than a slow change as you say CC will create. It is my opinion, and this is not fact, that becoming a slave to chemicals is not only annoying, but can become harmful to your fish because over the course of a few years, the odds are great that you will forget to add something or check something. Guessing is definitely not the way to go here. With chemicals, you are much more likely to find yourself testing your tank's water multiple times throughout a week without end. In any forum I have ever been on, until this one, I have never heard as many people state that chemicals are the way to go as I have here. Besides, your pH buffers that raise pH are just calcuim carbonate anyways, which is the same thing, but in an faster dissolving form.

Water changes do not simply need to be frequent in a freshwater tank...they just need to be done when your nitrate levels reach a certain point, of course, so long as the tank is cycled. There are reasons to do more frequent water changes, I agree, but for the average, everyday maintenance of a FW aquarium, there is no need to go overboard with water changes. Some people would also argue that this is also not a good idea becasue having a tank which is too 'clean', may hurt your benificial bacteria colonies because you are taking out a lot of fish wastes and potential ammonia sources. To add to that, if your tap water is not perfect, which many aquarists find is the case, you could actually be creating a build up of phosphates, non-chelated iron, copper, and even nitrates, among other items. This little tid bits of information are the important ones that I feel you seem to skip over while making broad statements such as 'frequent water changes are much more benificial' or 'no experienced freshwater aquarist uses crushed coral'. There are exceptions to everything and this hobby is by far not the exception.



> Most people in the US have safe drinking water. Therefore, this same water is also good enough for fish.


The idea that any fish can live in water which we can drink is silly, again, there are always the exceptions. First, I drink water out of my tap, which would kill fish because of the chlorine and chloramines. Second, you are probably not drinking the perfect water that you think you are...your body can handle things fish cannot if for no other reason that your size compared to theirs. In well water, there can a huge array of bacteria, fungus, viruses which you would barely find affecting you, however your fish could suffer. If your statement was absolutely true, then water treatment plants would be non-existant since the reverse would also be true...if a fish can live in water successfully, then you can drink it. I would like to see anyone drink some of the water out of an aquarium and keep a smile on their face.



> The goal of any experienced aquarist is to maintain a stable water chemistry. Having coral that leach carbonate 24/7 into the tank is *normally NOT* a good thing. One should strive to adapt the fish to the local water because most pet stores also use tap water for cost control, and wide compatibility with the *average* customers.


The word 'normal' is completely subjective and if you can, please define that for us. In a planted tank, maybe CC is not a great idea 'normally'. In a cichlid tank, it is often used to some extent, if not normally. This is becasue within the rift lakes, there are substances leaching carbonates into the water. Also, did you happen to note that the link I provided you about the differing substrates also points out how many other types of rock also leach carbonates? What do you suspect leaches out of your decorations, substrates, rocks, etc... over 7 years which your cardinal tetra has been exposed to? I doubt it is absolutely nothing. The point is that you are wrong, many experienced aquarists use crushed coral...end of story.



> People go into business to make $. Why train the fish to live in that ideal water when most customers use tap water? From a consumer point of view...it's a good fish store if the fish live for at least six months


You need to hit up some business courses sir....do you think that an LFS which sells fish for a couple dollars on a regular basis is worried about how to keep them healthy over the long term future? No, like ANY business, the idea is to get the product on a shelf and then out the door in the hands of a paying customer. Also, do you think that any LFS which has 20, 30 , 50 or hundreds of fish tanks can keep them all perfect? How much effort do you think that teenager in the LFS puts forth for minimum wage? Do you think the old man who has such a bright future working at a fish store puts forth more effort? Do not be fooled into thinking this is a perfect world. If ever LFS was so great, then we wouldnt have to talk about ich in the first place, right? I am really starting to doubt how much experience you actually have here....besides, if you were so great, then you wouldnt have to be buying fish all the time, which may be the case since you have a very off-kilter outlook on LFS. You wouldnt be on a forum where people are asking questions about fish if the LFS and its employees could do this for you, would you?



> There are many factors that could contribute to white spot. Sharp temperature drop is still the dominant mode of infection. My 3 day rule is based on the life cycle of white spot at 75F. If there is no visible white spot on the fish, then there is a very high degree of certainty that the fish is okay.


You are wrong, very wrong on this. Stress is the dominant cause, or in your own words, a weakened immune system, not water temp...it is just one of many things that can happen. I caution you on giving people on this forum the wrong ideas. If there are no spots on a fish, they yea, the fish is ok, but that by no means that the tank does not have ich, or that there is no chance that fish can develop ich in a day or even hours. Even you point out that temp drops 'cause ich' (which is wrong, but to humor you...), so when you bring your fish home, in a plastic bag in the winter months, by your theory they are going to get ich, right? You are not seeing your double standard here and how you are proving yourself wrong. Besides, I dont know ANYONE who would bring a fish home which was all spotted up or looking ill, yet people get ich and illnesses anyways, hence the need for quarantine is still there, correct?


> FROM THE SAME ARTICLE IN YOUR LINK:


That paragraph is the one I pointed out to you sir. Please look back and read that again. Then read the last sentance in that paragraph that you so kindly disproved yourself with...*Three weeks is generally considered a minimum period for adequate quarantine of new fish *

Look, this post was started asking about how to acclimate new fish. There are two parts to that IMHO, and also from other members here, namely Mr. Seeley. The first part is how to get those fish out of the bag and into a tank. You say float the bag til the temps are equal and plop them in. I say to add some of the tank's water to the bag while you are floating it because temp is not the only issue here. You contradict by saying that the odds are good that the LFS water and your water are the same; but then disprove yourself by pointing out how a substrate, namely crushed coral, can change things between the water in the bag and in your tank. I add to that the fact that if you are using Co2 or plant suppliments in your tanks, then the water becomes even more different than the LFS's because they dont do that sort of thing; which you know is true because I have read other posts of yours which state you use both of these items. Other than feeling embarassed or due to ego protection, why can you not support yourself and open up your thoughts to new information? It is truly your responsibility if you are going to be posting on forums like this in which many people can read your comments. Old school or not, things are changing and we are understanding more and more about fish and aquaria and you should be proactive with your own tanks as well. In 10 years from now, perhaps everything I have said will also change slightly, but for today, lets give people who are not sure how to acclimate their new fish the best chance as possible. Besides, you still have not answered the question of why, other than being purely lazy, it would be hard to add some of the tank's water to the bag? Also, if you say it is ok for fish to live through a pH change of plus or minus 0.5 (which I disagree with for the record), then you are also saying that if your tank's pH is 0.6 or more either way in relation to the LFS's tank, you would have to acclimate fish differently, right?

Look, your experience in the hobby is well respected, and I think that you are taking on Mr. Mile's role in thinking that I am completely clueless to any issue in aquaria. I specifically edited my signature so that nay-sayers such as yourself can look at my tanks and see that I am accomplished in the hobby. If we want to get completely technical here, I could say that I have well over 20 years of aquaria experience as well, but that old goldfish in a bowl I won at the carnival when I was 10 doesnt really make me an expert, does it? However, the fact that I have a tank of almost every type, which you can see in my albums by clicking one option in my signature, should say that I know what I am doing and what I am talking about becasue those tanks are there, and have been here for years. That foxface in my saltwater tank has been here since it was less than two inches long, and it is now an adult, and still alive, giving testamony to my ability to maintain an advance tank. Do you think I have come across Ich my aquatic 'lifespan'? Certainly have, learned lots of lessons and am now spitting them back for the benifit of others. Do you think that in my time in this hobby I have acclimated a few fish here and there? Certainly have, learned lots of lessons, and am now spitting them back for the benifit of others. In fact, I can tell you a lot about plants as well, who cares of those are saltwater plants more than anything, but you can also see that I have a living, breathing planted tank in my house right now as well (thanks to other members who didnt steer me wrong on this forum). So, I have been around the block and the ONLY reason that I am bringing this up is NOT to brag, but rather to hopefully give myself some clout here so that the gentleman who started this question does not come back in a month and say 'hey! I just lost over 100 dollars in 2 dollar fish and cant figure out why! I floated the bag and plopped them in like I was told so what's up?"

In the end, what works for you, works for you, but not neccessarily everyone else. The ideas that I am trying to get across, and Mr. Seeley has helped as well, is how to do things that will work in ANY tank at ANY given time. This is why it is not safe to assume that because my LFS cares about its tanks and has the exact same water as I do, the same holds true throughout the entire world. Agree?


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> Crushed coral will continually *leach* carbonates into the water, especially if the pH is below neutral. The use of chemical is much more effective if there should be a need to buffer the water. Why? Because a large water change can quickly alter the water chemistry. It may take days or weeks for the coral to buffer the water. Chemical can do it in seconds. A small change in pH of +/- 0.5 is perfectly safe for fish. Again, frequent water change is much more beneficial to aquatic critters than rock steady pH due to high KH.


Actually it won't continually leach carbonates into the water. Once the pH gets above 8.1 the Calcium carbonate in coral sand/gravel won't dissolve. If it did corals would have a rather hard time of things! The reason adding coral sand to a hard water fish tank is such a good method is that equilibrium is exactly what you want - a high, very stable pH with high mineral levels. Ideal for fish from the unchanging conditions of the inland seas that are LAke Tanganyika and L. Malawi.

You do have to be careful when performing large water changes, especially with Tanganyikans and regardless of whether you use CaCO3 in the substrate. I always used to add some RO Right to remineralise my replacement water, then the CaCO3 would buffer the KH. BTW I used to test the water before and after these 10-20% water changes and could never detect a change in GH, KH or pH. Just Nitrate.

A large water change will ALWAYS change the water chemistry - that's why you're doing it! To remove Nitrates, or re-set them and others if you're using EI etc. If it didn't then what's the point?



furballi said:


> Most people in the US have safe drinking water. Therefore, this same water is also good enough for fish. I have +7 year old cardinals in hard alkaline water. Should I lose sleep if my cards didn't make it to 10? Dirty water kills more fish than not having the *ideal* water. I submit that if the local water is not suitable form most tropical fish, then you're not going to find many local fish stores. The average consumers will not fork over $ for a RO unit and chemicals to rebuild the RO water!


Chloramine is increasingly added to water supplies which is allegedly quite safe for humans. It's not safe for fish. Hence treatments have to be added to cope with this. Assuming water that is potable is fine for fish can be a minefield.

I agree with you that MOST fish should be fine in tap water. But you are carrying the point to extremes. Not ALL fish will. Not ALL fish will cope with sudden changes in condition as well as others, so why not acclimatise them carefully so that the more delicate ones do better?



furballi said:


> The goal of any experienced aquarist is to maintain a stable water chemistry. Having coral that leach carbonate 24/7 into the tank is *normally NOT* a good thing. One should strive to adapt the fish to the local water because most pet stores also use tap water for cost control, and wide compatibility with the *average* customers.


Actually I couldn't disagree more. Why make your fish cope with water that is not ideal for them, that is not what they evolved to live in for possibly thousands of years, just because at one, short stage during their life they were kept in that water at a LFS? That water was also probably quite different from the water that the fish were kept in at the wholesalers.

My LFS uses treated tap water but I use RO. Acutally my tap water is also from a completely different source from my LFS too. Their water comes from the Peak District and is much softer than my water from Boreholes and is much more like my RO water. Yet because the fish are healthy and they are very good people who recomend acclimatising carefully I know they have very few problems with people's fish not doing well.



furballi said:


> People go into business to make $. Why train the fish to live in that ideal water when most customers use tap water? From a consumer point of view...it's a good fish store if the fish live for at least six months.


I tried to make that point. They are a business, but hopefully they have more than just pound/dollar/euro signs in their thinking too.
I think far more comes into a good LFS. I hope so anyway. I'm sure you didn't mean to say that's all that makes a good LFS, but I felt it's an important point to make.



furballi said:


> There are many factors that could contribute to white spot. Sharp temperature drop is still the dominant mode of infection. My 3 day rule is based on the life cycle of white spot at 75F. If there is no visible white spot on the fish, then there is a very high degree of certainty that the fish is okay.


I am currently finishing a course of treating White spot in my tank. I have had the water at 29oC (83oF?) for nearly three weeks now and the visible cysts have persisted for longer than three days. I'd be very interested to know where you got three days from. If you have a link that would be very useful.



furballi said:


> FROM THE SAME ARTICLE IN YOUR LINK:
> 
> Prevention of "Ich" is preferable to treating fish after a disease outbreak is in progress. All incoming fish should be quarantined for at least three days when temperatures are 75 to 83°F. At cooler temperatures a 3-day quarantine will be inadequate for "Ich" because of its lengthened life cycle. For this reason, and to prevent introduction of other diseases which have incubation periods greater than 3 days, a longer quarantine is strongly recommended. Three weeks is generally considered a minimum period for adequate quarantine of new fish.


I think this further supports my observations. There are also many other dieases that have a much longer period before they are visible. I quarantine for three to four weeks, and yet Whitespot has still got into my main tank! Probably through my incompetence and feeding the quaratine tank before feeding others one day!


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Those who acclimate fish to their tanks are still in the VERY SMALL minority. If this is a real issue, then one would see more emphasis by the LFS to educate the consumers. No reputable LFS is going to sell a fish knowing that the fish will NOT survive in the local tap water. That's the bottom line.

As for the 3 day rule, use GOOG to learn about the life cycle of white spot at 75F or higher.

Noobs try to alter the water to "re-create" the fish's native habitat. Eventually, they will learn that fish can adapt to a very wide range of water chemistry as long as the water is clean. There is no need to tweak the water unless one is preparing a pair for breeding.

Sharp temperature drop = weakened immune system = more susceptible to with spot. An idiot can argue about WHAT IFs until death. Intelligent people use common sense so that they will have more free time to enjoy their hobby.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Furballi, if you read my and Mr. Seeleys last posts, you are staring common sense in the face. How can so many websites be wrong? Juan5pronto, don't listen to him.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

From the website of a discus fish hatchery:

"In many areas of the US local tap water supplies are fine for keeping discus." Hmmm...so who has been crying WOLF?

From the same article:

"If the tap water in your area is very hard with a high pH, you may want to use softened water to blend with your tap water in order to achieve desirable water for the discus." The key words are *MAY WANT* and *DESIRABLE*. There are many people in S Cal who use straight tap water (8.2 pH, 10 KH) to raise discus. I've never come across a LFS that would void the "dead fish warranty" because the consumer did not acclimate the discus.

These people breed discus for profit. Therefore, they should be more knowledgeable than the average aquarist. Why did colleges ban the citing of WIKIPEDIA in research papers? Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

http://rockymountaindiscus.com/Discus_Fish_Care.htm

http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Colleges_Publicly_Ban_Wikipedia_Use_For_Papers


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

juan5pronto said:


> What is the best way to acclimate fish to a tank? I have heard that you just keep the fish in the bag and add water from the tank to the bag? Well let me ask how long do you do this and how much water do you add at one time and how long does this go on before you can add the new fish to the tank?


if you're unsure of the quality of the water that you got your fish from, i would most definitely put them in a quarantine tank for at least a week.

for myself, i'm fairly confident the water quality from my LFS is good, where the pH is at 7.0. i just go with a drip method, which spans over an hour's time. this would acclimatize the fish to my water condition/quality. after which time i net them and place them in the tank. i NEVER pour the water into my tank.

i know you got more info than you expected, but at least you got some info


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> Those who acclimate fish to their tanks are still in the VERY SMALL minority. If this is a real issue, then one would see more emphasis by the LFS to educate the consumers. No reputable LFS is going to sell a fish knowing that the fish will NOT survive in the local tap water. That's the bottom line.


This is not how it works in the UK, new fishkeepers are encouraged to acclimatise fish to their tank conditions, even if that just means adding some tank water to their bag as they float. Generally adding small amounts of water over an hour or so will help smooth out water qualities for even the most fussy fish.

No one ever said you HAD to, but I would as this is hardly a great bind.



furballi said:


> Noobs try to alter the water to "re-create" the fish's native habitat. Eventually, they will learn that fish can adapt to a very wide range of water chemistry as long as the water is clean. There is no need to tweak the water unless one is preparing a pair for breeding.


I don't quite know how to take that. I have kept and bred a large number of fish, concentrating on cichlids, but now I'm getting into killis too. I have breed these fish by keeping them all the time in water that approximates their natural conditions. If they won't breed in the water you're keeping them in, is it really ideal?

Some fish WILL NOT adapt to any old water. Tanganyikan cichlids are only the first group that spring to mind. That most do is a testament to their general ruggedness. No fish enjoys a quick change to new conditions though, hence acclimatise them.

I hope you can understand that I am not a newbee to keeping and breeding fish, yet I keep all my fish in water that approximates their natural conditions.



furballi said:


> Sharp temperature drop = weakened immune system = more susceptible to with spot. An idiot can argue about WHAT IFs until death. Intelligent people use common sense so that they will have more free time to enjoy their hobby.


Common sense is the right word. As you have said in another thread I have seen, "You are naive if you believe that a very sharp change in temperature, pH, KH, etc do not kill fish." Would this not apply even more so to dumping fish into a new tank with different water parameters? Because surely you cannot argue that the water in EVERY fish tank in an area will be exactly the same as the water in EVERY LFS or the same as the water out of the tap. There are too many variables.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

So people are still in denial mode. Why don't you provide data to support your claim about the success of the "drip method" when introducing new fish? Again, I want proof to show that the changes between tap water at the store and tap water at your home will kill new fish.

This reminds me of people who insist on the use of nitrogen gas to inflate automobile tires. If you're not driving at 300 mph, then why worry about that extra 2 to 3% safety margin?

Oh yes, skin cream designed to undo wrinkles. All BS marketing without any scientific data to support these claims.


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## gibmaker (Jan 3, 2007)

depending on the size of the bag they are in, I float the bag and add about a 1/4 cup of my tank water to the bag about every 15 to 30minutes untill the bag is full then I dump the whole thing in there, keep it simple. I am sure that people are going to say that it isnt a good idea to take water from your LFS and dump it in your tank, but hey, it's been working for me for years, besides how bad could about 20 ounces of water be from a LFS in a 125 gal tank. I do think that various bad things could allready be in your tank....(sometimes) as far as how your fish react to them would be directly related to there over all health and immune system.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

furballi said:


> So people are still in denial mode. Why don't you provide data to support your claim about the success of the "drip method" when introducing new fish? Again, I want proof to show that the changes between tap water at the store and tap water at your home will kill new fish.
> 
> This reminds me of people who insist on the use of nitrogen gas to inflate automobile tires. If you're not driving at 300 mph, then why worry about that extra 2 to 3% safety margin?
> 
> Oh yes, skin cream designed to undo wrinkles. All BS marketing without any scientific data to support these claims.


what's this with wanting proof? i don't think it's that people are in denial mode, i think it's a case of close mindedness. you're forcing a method that works for you, with your water conditions, and not considering that water conditions are different outside your environment. there's more than just having the same water source as your LFS. what about the filtering that the LFS uses as opposed to what you use at home? are they adding any chemicals to their tank water? most likely not. while the home tank is filled with chemicals to buffer pH, to fertilize plants, to treat disease, etc. what about the piping going into the building supply this water? is it cast iron, PVC, or concrete? what is your house/apartment using?

how many LFS tanks that you've seen doesn't contain some dead fish floating about? those DOA's affects water conditions as well.

a lot of fish are very sensitive to water changes, which is why people who keep these fish slowly acclimatize them to their water conditions. these methods work for them. their fish survive. are they fooling themselves into thinking that it does work? maybe. but it still works for them.

so let it go. enjoy your tank.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> So people are still in denial mode.


I'm not denying anything. You get away with dumping fish in your tank then fine, but why have a go at other people for advocating a more cautious approach?



furballi said:


> Why don't you provide data to support your claim about the success of the "drip method" when introducing new fish? Again, I want proof to show that the changes between tap water at the store and tap water at your home will kill new fish.


And I could say exactly the same thing about your claims. Where is your data? You seem to be accusing me of making baseless claims then doing the same.

Here's some papers I found about changes in conditions causing mortality in fish. They aren't all directly linked to tap water (any that relate to tap water talk about the toxic effects of chlorine), but show rapid changes in water causing stress or mortality.


*Confinement and Water Quality-Induced Stress in Largemouth Bass*

*G. J. CARMICHAEL, J. R. TOMASSO, B. A. SIMCO and K. B. DAVIS*



*Modelling fish mortality due to urban storm run-off: interacting effects of hypoxia and un-ionized ammonia Authors: Magaud H.; Migeon B.; Morfin P.; Garric J.; Vindimian E.*

Source: Water Research, Volume 31, Number 2, February 1997, pp. 211-218(8)

Global Environmental Issues: A Climatological Approach By David D. Kemp.
Page 83 discusses the effect of rapid influxes of acid rain on fry mortality (NB rapid pH changes not caused by CO2, but changes to KH levels)

Pond Aquaculture Water Quality Management By Craig S. Trucker, Claude E. Boyd
This talks about various water conditions for aquaculture and their consequences.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Without reading through this entire thread, which seems to be getting a little heated, I will quote a couple of my replies in other threads, just because I haven't replied to this one yet.


JanS said:


> I do pretty much the same as Laith, except I don't take as much time with steps 3 and 4.
> 
> As I said in the other post, over years of trying different things, it seems the sooner they get into their regular (quarantine) tank, the faster they settle down.
> For me, I just float the bag for 20 minutes or so to acclimate the temp, then scoop in some tank water a couple of times all in one setting, pour them into a net over a bucket and then into the tank.
> ...





JanS said:


> In 99% of the cases, I just float them to acclimate the temp, then put them in the tank. They've always done just fine using that method, and I believe one of the more important aspects is just getting them into clean water, and out of the bag. If they're used to very different conditions than what you have, even the drip method isn't going to be enough to acclimate them in a few hours.
> 
> The only time I use a slower acclimation method is with saltwater, but that doesn't apply here.


We all have different opinions, and I have tried the different methods, but I still find I have the best luck with the methods I've mentioned above. 
That doesn't mean everyone has to do it that way, but I'm just stating what works for me and several of my other experienced friends, for that matter.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

freydo said:


> what's this with wanting proof? i don't think it's that people are in denial mode, i think it's a case of close mindedness. you're forcing a method that works for you, with your water conditions, and not considering that water conditions are different outside your environment. there's more than just having the same water source as your LFS. what about the filtering that the LFS uses as opposed to what you use at home? are they adding any chemicals to their tank water? most likely not. while the home tank is filled with chemicals to buffer pH, to fertilize plants, to treat disease, etc. what about the piping going into the building supply this water? is it cast iron, PVC, or concrete? what is your house/apartment using?
> 
> how many LFS tanks that you've seen doesn't contain some dead fish floating about? those DOA's affects water conditions as well.
> 
> ...


Life is all about tradeoffs. If you want to waste time with the drip method, then have a ball, but don't spread FUDs. If the drip method is *important* to keep the fish alive, then the procedure would appear on the discus breeder website.

Why should the inclusion of NPK and micro nutrients affect fish? Same question for the type of filter and pipe used to carry water from the street to your faucet. I know, "what's this with wanting proof."


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

First, no one EVER said you cannot keep freshwater fish in a wide array of pH levels. Every one but you, furballi, is saying you HAVE TO ACCLIMATE FISH TO THAT Ph!!!!!!!!!!!! You twisting the subject helps no one, ok? So, keep to the issue at hand.

You feel free to do what you want, of course its your tank. However, if you are unsure about what pH or any other differences that may exist between you tank and the LFS's tank, then why not take the extra step to drip acclimate or a similar method? I respect that you are sticking to your guns here, but there is a lot of proof given that concerns the issue at hand. To remind yourself about what that issue is, read the title of the thread. I 100% agree that you can keep fish (freshwater) in a pH which is it would not normally be found in nature, but you cannot just plop fish around in any old water and not expect some of them to suffer and possibly die. To add to that, if you have spent money on a fish, why take the risk of losing it? Because it is under warranty? Fine, but then, IMHO, you need to take a look at your ethical standards a little bit. Fish are alive, and I think most would agree that they would like to stay that way. in this hobby, that means they are depending on you.



> These people breed discus for profit. Therefore, they should be more knowledgeable than the average aquarist. Why did colleges ban the citing of WIKIPEDIA in research papers? Don't believe everything you read on the internet.


I hold two bachelor degrees and am very close to getting my Master's as well. I know that Wikipedia is not a completely viable source, and pointed that out myself, long before you did...nice catch though! I also am glad to see that you ignored all the other links I gave for you to read! And to be really technical, citing ANY business's website would also raise questions within a college level research paper. However, I wish you would have read that entire website first so that yet again, you wouldnt have proven yourself wrong again. What do I mean????......

You say only a few people acclimate and/or quarantine fish...you website says:

*



Many experienced hobbyists, as a precaution, quarantine any new fish before adding them to a fully setup aquarium full of discus fish

Click to expand...

. *Its even in bold type!

Or what about this sentance, again taken directly from you website which you trust so much:

*



If you purchase discus fish from a pet shop to add to your discus aquarium, they should be placed in a quarantine tank for observation and possible treatment. Shops have a lot of fish coming and going which increases this need. Problems arise with discus health from introduction of fish carrying a pathogen or parasite and from the stress created due to aquarium maintenance neglect.

Click to expand...

Or this one that totally contradicts your quoted sentance...AGAIN, taken straight from that site from people who breed and profit from discus:




The ideal water parameters for proper care of the discus aquarium is medium hardness, slightly acidic ph values with the temperature between 84 and 86 degrees.

Click to expand...

Want more? Okay......

This website goes as far as to say you should acclimate your new discus to LIGHT of all tiny little aspects that no one cares about:

 




New discus arrivals that were shipped have spent several hours in a dark box. Avoid opening the box under bright lights. Discus eyes are designed for vision in murky waters and bright lights can irritate them. Opening a dark box in bright lights will irritate their eyes and in an effort to escape the light the discus may lie down. I recommend leaving the aquarium lights off for 4 or 5 hours after introducing new discus to the aquarium This allows time for the discus to adjust their eyes.

Click to expand...

So, if light can be an issue, wouldn't pH and other things matter?

JanS and other mods, admin and members;

Let me appologize for this 'heated' and often off topic discussion occuring here. Since i wouldn't feel comfortable enough to speak for others, just let me say that my only intention here is to help ensure that this forum continues to give out reliable and at least largely accurate advice and information so others can skip the mistakes that I have made. While I completely realize that this behavior is often frowned upon within a forum like this one, I continue to participate because there are points to be made which I think you can agree, become useful information to others of any skill level or background. Please understand that I have no negative personal feelings for ANY member and am acting in no way out of spite or desire to prove that i am better or smarter than anyone here, or eslewhere.*


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Again, I ask you for scientific evidence to prove that the survival rate of fish using the drip method is far superior to fish without the drip method. I'll even bend the rule by allowing you to compare fish in RO blended water with fish in tap water. Wonder why there's not much research available on this subject. Gee, perhaps it is not that big of a deal after all.

Do you understand that pH is a log scale? A change of 8 to 7 is much less stressful to fish than a change from 8 to 6.

Hmmm...another *net user* with multiple degrees. I suppose Bill Gate and Michael Dell are idiots cause they're college drop-outs.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> Hmmm...another *net user* with multiple degrees. I suppose Bill Gate and Michael Dell are idiots cause they're college drop-outs


Yea, education is getting mare and more common these days, isn't it? Maybe I should have been more clear, I do not hold degrees in any biology or aquatic related areas. I was simply trying to point out that I am very familiar with research methods and how to find dependable resources.



> Do you understand that pH is a log scale? A change of 8 to 7 is much less stressful to fish than a change from 8 to 6.


However, I didnt need any degrees, or even kindergarten to realize this. Again, here you are disproving yourself....you say that it doesnt matter if the bag is just floated and then the fish are released, everything is going to be just fine because of some 95% probability 'rule'. Now you say that pH can be harder on a fish the larger the gap increases between the pH of the water in a bag versus the water in a tank.

When I said I respected you for sticking to your guns, I meant in principle, not in a manner that imlies that you should keep going on and on about this.

Here is the thing....since you often quote 'common sense' as being reliable, you should have enough common sense to realize that not everyone in the world has the exact same situation as yourself. keeping that in mind, you must also realize that not everyone on this forum lives down the road from you and hence, giving your highly specific methods which work for you could lead other people astray or lead them closer to potential disaster. So, IMHO, it is more responsible to give more cautious, even overly cautious advice because of these reasons. At least for myself, giving others the information that will get them off on the best possible way is well worth this 'debate' here.



> Sharp temperature drop = weakened immune system = more susceptible to with spot. An idiot can argue about WHAT IFs until death. Intelligent people use common sense so that they will have more free time to enjoy their hobby


I would like to point out that I didn't say that your statement above is untrue, I just said that it isnt the only, nor most common reason for this issue. Again, applying common sense, if one fish which has recently endured a colder water temp due to being transorted from the LFS is then added to a tank full of fish who have lived there for a long time, for example your cardinal tetra, then how do you explain why those other fish subsequently start showing signs of Ich? The answer cannot be cold water,but because Ich is easily spread (and why it is most often advised to treat an entire tank versus removing just the ill fish). So, again, you are right but IMHO...which is based upon experience and fact....your statement is too broad and/or implies that water temp drops are the only thing to avoid. And even though I understand what you mean, that does not mean that people who are just starting to deal with or learn about this topic can or would read between the lines like experienced aquarists can. Make sense?



> Noobs try to alter the water to "re-create" the fish's native habitat. Eventually, they will learn that fish can adapt to a very wide range of water chemistry as long as the water is clean. There is no need to tweak the water unless one is preparing a pair for breeding.


I think that unless all those 'noobs' that write articles for and edit widely distibuted and very popular aquaria magazines are completely off their rockers, you might want to reevaluate this comment. Again, you are stating narrowly focused comments that I fear others might get the wrong idea. Out of most anything stated thus far in this thread, this statement might be the best example of how an opinon has been stated as fact. In truth, as you say, more stringent water chemistry and/or types become more critical when trying to breed a *select few* species of fish, however, attempting to recreate a nearly exact replica of a fishes' natural habitat is also critical to keeping fish as healthy, as colorful, and as close to a full adult size as possible. This statement also goes completely against those aquarists which enjoy creating biotopes versus having spongebob and plastic ships in an aquarium. How would you approach those people, keeping in mind that biotope aquariums are often times considered another 'branch' of the hobby....just like planted tanks are?



> This reminds me of people who insist on the use of nitrogen gas to inflate automobile tires. If you're not driving at 300 mph, then why worry about that extra 2 to 3% safety margin?


Maybe some people enjoy being alive, or feel strongly about keeping his or her children safe. Common sense, right? If that extra 2 or 3 percent saves only one life, is it not worth it? If taking the 30 seconds or less to add some water to the bag of new fish saves one, isnt it worth it?



> If the drip method is *important* to keep the fish alive, then the procedure would appear on the discus breeder website.


I cant answer that question...maybe they are more worried about selling fish (to make money) versus writting up tons of information and/or helpful hints for new discus owners. Lets spin this around for a second and place ourselves in this discus breeder's store...would you rather sell everyone who is interested in discus a small number of fish, or hope to sell those same people two or three times more fish when the origonal fish die? This is a business rather than a not-for-profit charity trying to find homes for abandoned discus.

However, as I pointed out before, from my observations via reading or hearing situations or experiences of aquarists of all skill levels, including my own experience with them, Dr. Foster & Smith's liveaquaria.com is a relatively huge, and highly ethical online source for almost anything you can think of. On that site, unlike your discus store website, there is TONS of information and articles available for anyone to view and learn from. Keep in mind that they sell all types of fish and inverts (i.e. freshwater, saltwater, brackish, cold water, tropical, etc...) when you read this article on acclimation procedures which is clearly in support of doing so. I feel that the particular situation of this online store lends even more creedance to their thoughts,opinions and information because not only do they have a large reputation to maintain, they also lose money when a fish or invert dies in a customer's tank since they guarantee their livestock, even saltwater fish and inverts (including very sensitive and light dependant corals, which is nearly unheard of), and even reship that livestock for free or a discounted price. Here is that article for you to read through...it explains both the drip method and the 'float method (which is what I explained early on in this conversation...and is more commonly used in freshwater applications):
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=19&ref=3319&subref=AI


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> "If the tap water in your area is very hard with a high pH, you may want to use softened water to blend with your tap water in order to achieve desirable water for the discus."


^^From your own quote taken from your discus store, right? Isn't this sentance a very clear method for changing one's water chemistry as it relates to a particular species' "ideal" or 'natural' habitat? Is that not also something that only "noobs" do?

Here is more 'proof' for you on acclimation procedures...and it is taken DIRECTLY off one of this forum's sponsors!



> Acclimating Your New Fish To Your Aquarium
> Transport your fish from the LFS to your aquarium as quickly as possible. Although it is possible for the fish to survive for more than a day in the bag, it causes them a great deal of stress to be confined for that long. Once you get the fish home, open the bag. Float it in your aquarium for at least five minutes with the open end loosely hanging over the side edge. Add some water from your aquarium to the bag and let the fish sit another 5 - 10 minutes in the bag. After 10 - 15 minutes, use a fish net to scoop out your new fish from the bag into your aquarium. Try not to get the fish store's water mixed with your own. You never know what disease or contaminants may have travelled in the water from the LFS. (http://www.aquatic-store.com/)


Here is another article, again from one of this forum's sponsors which gives the advice of using drip acclimation for shrimp (look under the second section):

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Acclimatization - When shrimp arrive it is essential to acclimatize them slowly. However we believe if you follow our instructions the acclimatization period should be fine.

Click to expand...

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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

*MAY* is not the same as *MUST*!

So now you're being creative by stating that I want to dump the entire content into the new tank. Care to provide proof? As for the pH, there should not be a delta of 2 points between the two tanks under normal condition, even when working with blended RO water and tap water.

I don't have a "happy meter" to scope my cardinals, but they look just as good as those best-of-the-best pictures on the web. The biggest card is 1.8" (not including the tail fin). That's just a fraction shy of the theoretical 2". My neons are also dropping eggs in this community tank (local tap water 8.2 pH, 10KH). For those who are not familiar with cards and neons, they are found in very soft acidic (5.5 to 6 pH) rain water.

It would be stupid to dump these fish directly from their native water into my tank without several days of drip feeding. However, if these fish are thriving at the LFS, then they have already received the proper "water conditioning".


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Well, I think there has been enough proof given already and it has fallen most often on a deaf mind. Like JanS points out, we all have our 'opinions' and know what works for us. Hopefully it is now very apparent that what works for you may not wont work for everyone else. For the last time, I think that is why making very specific statements as 'you dont need to ______, because I dont have to" or "every experienced aquarist never ______", etc... It is also very apparent that lots of people agree that most any freshwater fish can be kept in a wide array of pH levels, and I agree that a stable pH is always better than a pH which is constantly changing due to partially effective or temporary buffering agents (which is the reason why some experienced aquarists use crushed coral...because it is more 'worry free' and long lasting than adding a chemical or man made buffering agent by the way). However, in order to give new fish a better chance at surviving, many people feel that to always assume the fish at an LFS are in the almost exact situation as they will be in our tanks, acclimating them in a manner which allows the fish to 'get used to' any differences in water chemistry is a good way to protect one's investment. I also feel that since 'noobs', as you put it, may not understand every issue that could exist between two glasses of water, explaining acclimation procedures regardless of their 'complexity' is the best bet to avoid problems, even those which may have only a minute chance of occuring. My point here has always been, and will always be, that forums like this one are based largely, although not solely, upon giving new aquarists a resource for gaining good information, ideas and opinions on how to create and maintain a successful aquarium. So, with that in mind, often times the actions or methods of highly experienced aquarists are not the most important thing to be pointed out. For those who have children, it is easy to tell our kids to do something while leaving out the finer details....while at the same time finding it very hard to explain or answer all of the "why?" responses. However, as our kids grow up, they learn more and more small things which then can be combined to allow them to answer and understand "why?" on their own. This hobby is absolutely full of variables and so as those who are new to the hobby come across those variables one by one, many times on forums like this one, he or she can start to understand which set of variables apply to his or her unique situation. In the meantime, I agree, using the KISS ideology is the best thing to use, but in an opposite manner than you point out in that giving advice that more completely covers any possible variable set is the easiest and best IMHO. Make sense?


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