# Stunted growth or what?



## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Alright guys, it seems to happen offtenly with most of my stem plants. At times there are situations which some of my stem plants seems to grow perfectly, the top of the stem looks all nice and smooth and there are times where the top of the stem looks sort of stunted or distorted looking. I got rid of my rotala rotundifolia becuase the top keep getting smaller in size while the leaves below it are looking nice and healthy.

I have a couple eustralis stems right now that are doing the same thing where the top is bunched up and looks stunted. Any idea what it is and how I can prevent this from happening again?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

More info needed.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Well as far as fertilization goes, i'm dosing 1/2 tsp. KNO3, 1/4 tsp. KH2PO4, 1/8 tsp. K2SO4, 2bps, lights are 2x 96watt one is 6,700k the other one is 10,000k. Dsoing plantx csm + b plus extra iron (10ml) 3x a week. Lights are on 8 hours a day.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

John, this is a classic case of way to much light, not enough C02, I have been growing E. Stellata for years and I have seen it do that many time's, you need better diffusion for that much light, recalculate light/C02, use 1x96 for the next several days, I would not recommend 2x96 until you get a better understanding of the light C02 relationship.

P.S. 1/8Tsp KH2P04 should be plenty, if you feel you need 1/4Tsp that is more proof that C02 is lacking.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Craig,

Thanks for the advice, btw i'm running a 50g but again I think 1.92wpg is decent amount of lighting. I increased my PO4 becuase I was getting some green spot, which now is going away due to the increase. I'll start running just a 96 as of today and for a couple of weeks to see if things get better. Thanks again.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Rather than go by bubbles per second when judging your CO2 dosage, at least go by it being enough to reduce the pH of the tank water, going from fully outgassed to stabilized with the CO2, by 1.0. That, in an ideal world, would give you around 30 ppm of CO2. In the real world, that is a good starting point. If you still have plant problems with that much, jack it up a bit each week, each time watching the fish every half hour or so to be sure they are not stressed by the CO2. Once they seem stressed - spending too much time at the surface, losing color, etc., back off on the CO2 a bit, and that will be the most you can use in that tank. Then, you can use whatever bubble rate that is as a gage for verifying that the CO2 is steady.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

To add on to hoppy, the same goes for light, start with medium and not high then go up from there. Applies to ferts too actually.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

No fish in the tank, i'll try to keep the co2 at a consistent level, haven't tested lately. Will start off with medium lighting for now and work my way up.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I concur with the advice given here. I have both rotala rotunda and aromatica (similiar to E. Stellata) and I've had no problems with these plants since turnin up my co2 to a stream of bubbles. Your dosing is fine, although as mentioned you probably don't need that much po4. I have a 72g tank and I dose .5 tsp no3and .05 tsp po4 when my mass is really full I up these slightly, but as long as your doing weekly water changes I wouldn't get hung up on exact fert amounts after all it is an "Estimative Index" if that is what your doing.

Most fish can withstand high co2 if it's brought about very slooooowly.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

I knew you had a 50g, your setup is similar to one of mine which is a 46g with 2x96 each bulb is an 6700k/10000k, nice bulbs, but it is alot of light, 2wpg-ish is plenty enough light to grow most anything, plants can only grow so fast and that is it, if we push the threshold then weird things start to happen.

The Stellata that is stunted will not grow back, but it will branch, so if you reduce the light for the next several days to weeks it will reproduce nicely for you.
You can also run 2x96 for no more than an hour, hour+half a day, just for a burst, adds vigor helps boost plants, but stay on top of ferts and C02.

You can also add another needle valve with maybe a wood stone or glass diffuser if you are wanting to push the threshold with the light, the plants well tell tale, pay special attention to them 

Good luck.



Jdinh04 said:


> Craig,
> 
> Thanks for the advice, btw i'm running a 50g but again I think 1.92wpg is decent amount of lighting. I increased my PO4 becuase I was getting some green spot, which now is going away due to the increase. I'll start running just a 96 as of today and for a couple of weeks to see if things get better. Thanks again.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Craig, your plants look great and I will follow all the advice given. The tank is now only running on a 96watt, until I start to see some improvements of the plants that are growing. My eustralis stellata haven't branched out yet, but I hope they start to.


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## detlef (Dec 24, 2004)

Jdinh04,

do you see any correlation between upping PO4 an the stunting of ES? Has ES ever stunted for you before you raised PO4 levels?

How often do you add back KNO3 and KH2PO4?

Regards,
Detlef


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Detlef,

Stunting was still caused before increasing PO4, so I don't think the increase of PO4 would be a problem. I had KNO3 and KH2P4 3 times a week, doing the EI method.


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## detlef (Dec 24, 2004)

Jdinh04,

I asked you this because I know the problem with ES very well and have always been under the impression that the stunting was caused by too large a variation of fertilizer concentrations. As for your regimen I'd try daily nutrient dosing to achieve the highest possible stability/constancy. 

Regards,
Detlef


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Hey Detlef,

Here is what I dose ...

1/2 tsp. of KNO3 - Sun/Tues/Thurs
1/4 tsp. of KH2PO4 - Sun/Tues/Thurs
1/8 tsp. of K2SO4 - Sun/Tues/Thurs

and 10ml of Plantex CSM + B Plus Extra Iron - Mon/Wed/Friday


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## detlef (Dec 24, 2004)

Hi,

you're following EI more or less. Consider a daily dosing routine.

I found some years ago that when I kept nutrient additions as constant as possible (and that was especially true for PO4) by means of daily fertilization ES did not keep on stunting. Over a period of quite a year there wasn't a single stop of continous growth. Whereas before that it has stunted several times for no obvious reason. That's all I can tell you. Try daily fertilization keep all the other param's constant and tell us how the plant responded. 


Regards,
Detlef


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## Briney (Jun 17, 2006)

Jdinh04 said:


> Alright guys, it seems to happen offtenly with most of my stem plants. At times there are situations which some of my stem plants seems to grow perfectly, the top of the stem looks all nice and smooth and there are times where the top of the stem looks sort of stunted or distorted looking. I got rid of my rotala rotundifolia becuase the top keep getting smaller in size while the leaves below it are looking nice and healthy.
> 
> I have a couple eustralis stems right now that are doing the same thing where the top is bunched up and looks stunted. Any idea what it is and how I can prevent this from happening again?


The same thing happened to my stellata and i had to reduce the lighting by half for the majority of the day, giving exception to a very bright 2-3 hour cycle in the middle of the daylight cycle.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

detlef said:


> Hi,
> 
> you're following EI more or less. Consider a daily dosing routine.
> 
> ...


Detlef, what do you mean by daily fertilization?


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## detlef (Dec 24, 2004)

John,

I'm fertilizing each nutrient on a daily basis in very small amounts: traces, Fe, KNO3, KH2PO4 even MgSO4. I don't add dry ferts but have them diluted for precise dosing with a dropper which IMO is a necessity for tanks say <30g.

Let me add another observation which might support a daily dosing regimen. I'm growing Rotala rotundifolia for quite some time now. Since I started dosing MgSO4 at about 0.2ppm daily it has never stunted again. This is based on 2 months of experience on a 20g. I'm inclined to say that not only for some picky plants constant nutrient levels seem to be the clue. 

I'd like to encourage you to try daily dosing also. And keep good CO2 levels during the photoperiod.

Regards,
Detlef


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Detlef,

I will try that out, is MgSO4 magnesium sulfate other wise known as epsom salt? I just saw some carton full of it at the dollar store the other day!


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

I think i have the same problem, pictures of the problem could be found here:
http://zoone.se/main/blog/nutrition-deficiency-but-what

I wonder how sure you all are that this is due to low co2 because i'm quite certain that my level of co2 is in the rang of 30-40ppm and stable during the day and week (controller)? I have been trying to verify the CO2 level by all kind of methods (new calibration, degassing, blowing through a straw, normal fluid based tests and more).

My guess was that it is due to low Ca, but that is just a guess, all measurable nutrition levels are almost twice the level which it used to be with exactly the same schedule (daily autodosing), i think this is because of the stunned growt.
My guess for Ca was mainly because of that all resources on the Internet seems to point towards it when you have deformed new growt.

Here is also some additional / later information about the problem:
http://zoone.se/main/blog/more-abot-my-nutrition-problem


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## Lissette (Apr 1, 2005)

E. Stellata (along with some other plant species) have often stunted in my tank. I discovered that additional Ca was needed to be able to grow her well.

I have very soft water so the plant suffered alot when I didn't add enough Ca. At this point Ca is at 100 ppm, and the plants are doing great.



Lissette


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

A little late to add my bit to the thread, but anyhow... 

I also think it sounds like a possible calcium deficiency. Calcium deficiency usually manifests with twisted or pinched growth of new leaves, along with stunted growth. Calcium deficiency can happen due to a few things. 

One: it could just be that calcium levels have just run out in your tank.

Or it could be that the magnesium (or less likely the potassium) levels are too high and are inhibiting the uptake of the calcium, thereby giving you calcium deficiency. 

To get a better idea of whether it is a calcium problem, you could measure the Gh and the calcium concentration in your tank and report it back here, where we could figure out the magnesium content of the water. 

Ca:Mg ratio should be around 4:1 for good growth, if there is too much Mg then you will begin to see stunting (and vice-versa).

As far as what has been suggested so far, raising the CO2 is usually always a good idea (if there are no fish, like you have). It is important to note however, that the stunting between CO2 lacking tanks and Ca lacking tanks is very different. With no CO2 the plants will simply grow much slower, but with no Ca the plants will first start growing twisted new growth and then eventually cease growth altogether, getting progressively worse appearance-wise until death.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Mike,

Some of the leaves looks like they twist and turn as well, and some are bunched up stunted looking. However the stems that aren't effected yet are doing really great! I can imagaine how better they look with decreasing the light/photo period. 

Although due to the changing in light, I had a case of green spot algae which I will be trying to cure as soon as possible. But other than that, I think I will start to run the tank on a single 96watt and maybe both for less than 2 hours or so. 

Now to the hard part is trying to get this sucker colored up!!!


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## detlef (Dec 24, 2004)

I have been growing ES fine with the following concentrations:

Ca2+ just a little over 10ppm
Mg2+ just a little over 4ppm

or round about 2,4 dGH or 42ppm total hardness.

I was changing 20L of water weekly in a 20g (ADA amazonia substrate) using reconstituted DI water. 

I'd say Ca levels of 100ppm for ES to grow well is not necessary. But water chemistry is complex so under certain circumstances you may need much more Ca than I was successful with ES?

And yes epsom salt is MgSO4.

Regards,
Detlef


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I would be careful about changing too many parameters at the same time Jdinh.

Adding Mg can cause more problems if you don’t know what your hardness levels are currently. The best thing you can do is take a Gh reading of your water and then go to a LFS and get the calcium tested with a Hagen salt/fresh Ca test. 

Twisted growth of new leaves is a strong sign that you have a problem with the calcium system. 

How often do you do water changes btw? Also do you know the hardness of your tap water? If it is decently high you might not even need to add Mg or Ca via salts, instead you could just do a water change and not worry about those two minerals.

As far as lowering the light levels goes, lower light levels will slow growth down not high light levels. 

With ~2wpg, you don't need to lower the light. I have experimented with lighting up to 8wpg and the plants did not slow down growth due to higher light levels. Rather they started to grow horizontally vs. vertically and developed a vibrant hue.


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## Jdinh04 (Oct 7, 2004)

Mike,

I am doing water changes every 2 weeks, I haven't tested my water in a long time. Although I might go and get my water tested sometime this week.


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