# New to CO2...ready to give up



## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

I had a Read Sea yeast reactor and that didn't work for me at all. A few days ago I got an Azoo regulator from the Dr's and a 5 lb tank with a glass diffuser.

I can't seem to get the levels right and it is frustrating me. I have a drop checker to check it and I am also testing the PH regular to confirm the color. I have a natural PH of 7.6 and a KH of 5.

I got a bubble tester but it was such a huge piece of crap I took it off; I could hear it leaking. So I decided to start out slow and work up but now I have nothing coming out of the diffuser at all. I even turn the needle valve all the way up and nothing. I know it is with the diffuser because if I disconnect the line from it, I get bubbles from the line. It was working yesterday but today...nothing.

Meanwhile my plants are suffering badly and all of the time and money i invested in them are at risk.

Someone please help me, I am at my whits end here.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

I just got a set up from aquariumplants.com I got their regulator/meter and two 5# tanks. I always used DIY before but their system seems idiotproof. hence why I got it.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

leak maybe? or the check valve the wrong way?


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

UPDATE:

OK, I tested the check valve already by hooking up a syringe to the line and it forced air from the diffuser. I then tested the regulator by removing the airline from it and opening the valve, it worked, some CO2 came out. I was puzzled but as a last resort I removed and reattached the regulator and suddenly all is well.

Not sure what happened but it seems to be putting CO2 into the diffuser. Now I just need to get the levels balanced, I don't use that leaky bubble counter, and fingers crossed, something like this will not happen again. I hope my plant recover, they are looking very sad.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

might not have been seated right on the tank itself.


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, the worst has happened.

Last night the CO2 stopped working but I left it alone. This morning my wife and I go out to eat breakfast before the light came on and upon our return, all fish are dead and the CO2 is pumping out of the diffuser like crazy. Testing the PH, it is yellow so I replaced half the water and it is still yellow!!

The CO2 levels must be off the chart but now I am concerned about the entire biological system. All of the fish are dead but what about the plants, what does really high (crazy high) CO2 levels do to the plants. What about the good bacteria I have in my bio-balls? Is the whole system going to collapse and die now?

Please help.


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## Darkblade48 (Nov 14, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your loss.

However, some trouble shooting is required in order to prevent this from occurring again in the future. Why did your CO2 stop working? What was wrong? As mentioned previously, did you check all the connections for leaks as well? I suspect that there was a leak previously, which was why you had such a difficult time stabilizing your CO2 rate.

In terms of the biological system, the plants will not mind the high levels of CO2. I use to keep a high light, high tech tank with enough CO2 to keep the drop checker a constant yellow colour.

I am not sure about the beneficial bacteria, and the effect of high CO2 concentrations, however. I would assume they would not be very happy, but should be OK.


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

It's interesting that you would have a CO2 overdose due to a malfunction. The other night when you said it stopped working, could you be more specific about what the regulator was doing, amount of bubbles coming out, etc? 

Depending on the type of glass diffuser, you have to get the pressure pretty high for it to go through the small holes in the diffuser. I've noticed on mine that if i set the pressure at a certain level via needle valve, it can sometimes increase afterwards. This almost killed my fish. They were doing summersaults and rolling around when i found them. Fortunately i was able to save them. I'm sorry to hear about your loss.

If you can give more specific info, maybe even pictures, we should be able to help you more.


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, the first day I used the regulator it was putting out about 2 bubbles per second in my bubble counter. The next morning it started back up with the light but the bubble count was lower than 2 bbs and erratic. I noticed a hissing from my crappy bubble counter so I removed it and started out slow so not to overdose. I kept an eye on the PH all day and I got it dialed in good so I left it.

The next morning when the regulator clicked on with the light, it was not working...no bubbles. I gave it an hour but still nothing so I tried to turn it up a bit and it began to work so I kept an eye on it but as the day progressed, it got faster and faster and it began to bring the levels to high, even when I was turning it down after every check so eventually shut it off so the fish did suffer.

The next morning when the regulator clicked on with the light, it was not working...no bubbles. I gave it an hour but still nothing so I tried to turn it up a bit...still nothing, not even with full on. That is when I removed the regulator and saw bubbles from the hose so I cleaned the diffuser with a bleach water solution and flushed it with Prime and clean water before assembling the system again and still nothing not even full on...at this point I was getting very frustrated. I finally removed the regulator and reattached it and it began to work at that time so I kept an eye on it for the remainder of the day and got it dialed in again. However, when I went upstairs to go to bed, there was no bubbles. I cussed it but left it alone.

The next morning I got up early to go out to breakfast, before the light and regulator came on. I figured when it came on it wouldn't do anything so I didn't unplug it but I should have knowing it was not working right and I wouldn't be around to monitor it. That is when it must have came on and been way too high. By the time we got home at around 11:30, the fish where dead and the diffuser was bubbling like crazy. I shut it off, mourned my fish and cussed a bit more. I cleaned the tank, replaced half the water and tested the PH, it was still yellow so I left it alone and wrote to this post.

Sorry that is so long winded but I am trying to be specific as to the events. I am so confused by this regulator issue and ready to just throw in the towel on this tank. If the plants and biological filter dies, I might as well...hundreds of dollars lost.  By the way, it is an Azzo regulator and I got it from Dr. Foster Smith. I have a check valve and it is on correctly.

Any help would be great, I am not a quitter but this has got me so wound up, stressed and disappointing.

Thanks again to everyone that offers some assistance.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Hi Eric,

Sorry to hear about your situation. I use a Milwaukee regulator, NOT Azoo. However, a couple suggestions may be worth considering.

First, do NOT put your CO2 tube into the fish tank while you are still experimenting with your CO2 set-up to have a consistent output. Letting the CO2 output into the air will waste the CO2 but it will not harm the fish tank. After the CO2 set-up has been verified (through the bubble counter) to produce a consistent output for several days, then it is safe to have the CO2 tube into the fish tank.

Second, you may want to check the low pressure gauge reading. If it is too low, that may be the root cause of insistent CO2 output. Since I have not used Azoo, I cannot comment on the proper low pressure for such set up. For my Milwaukee setting, a low pressure of 20 psi gave a consistent bubble rate. With the needle valve fully opened, I adjusted the low pressure reading to 20 psi. Then I adjusted the needle valve to get the rate that I wanted as shown in the bubble counter.

Hope that helps.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Eric,

First of all, sorry for your fish loss; even after a bunch of years I still hate losing a fish unless it is sick or old age.

I believe in KISS, (Keep It Simple Roy), and here is what I would do. First, I think you did the right thing by getting the bubble counter out of the system, you can always add it back in after everything is stable. Second, it is difficult to tell if the problem is the regulator, solenoid, or the diffuser. Let's put the diffuser off to the side for a few days as well.

Now for a quick checklist:
1) Open the valve fully on your 5 gallon CO2 tank.
2) If the regulator is adjustable, adjust your regulator output to about 20 PSI, if it is not adjustable, hopefully it is about 20 PSI.
3) Activate the solenoid so the light is on.
4) Adjust the needle valve (with tubing attached and going into a bottle or jar) so you are getting about 5 bubbles per 15 seconds from the end of the tube in the bottle. Give it a few minutes to stablize and check the count again.
5) Turn off/unplug the solenoid and verify the bubbles stop after a few minutes.
6) Turn on/plug in the solenoic and verify the bubbles start up again.
7) Repeat steps 5 and 6 several times until you are confident that the solenoid is turning off and on the CO2 flow and that the bubble count remains stable.
8) Then turn the solenoid off, let everything cool down, and turn the solenoid on....is the count still more or less accurate?
9) Once you are confident that the regulator, solenoid, and needle valve are operating properly and are stable, then try the system with the diffuser attached. Keep in mind with the diffuser it will not start immediately when the solenoid starts the flow because it takes a while for the pressure to build up sufficiently for the bubbles to be forced through the diffuser nor will the diffuser stop immediately with the solenoid stops the flow because it will take a while for the pressure to drop back down.

Hope this helps, let us know how things go.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

You can't adjust the low-pressure on the Azzo. It comes with a fixed working pressure I believe somewhere in the 30 to 40 range. That being said I'm not sure what bubble count you are trying to achieve, but this regulator is very hard to adjust to a low bubble count (i.e. 1 bubble every 3 seconds), so I find it difficult to use for a nano. With a larger bubble count it's actually quite consistent. If you need a very low bubble count you might need to open up the needle valve more an use an additional inline one.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Sounds like you have a diffuser that takes a lot of pressure to build up in order for the CO2 to come through. Once it's built up it will pour out. I had a diffuser like that and it never worked correctly. It took too long (well over an hour) for it to begin to come through, much less be true to the bubble rate I had dialed in with my needle valve. I decided to trash it and get a new diffuser. I also made sure I did all the tests in the thread below. I think they were contributing to my issues. Try a new bubble counter and be sure to read the thread below.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/67884-things-they-never-tell-you-about-4.html


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

OK, after taking a break all weekend, I started troubleshooting the CO2 issue.

First, there are virtually no directions for this regulator. It is hard to understand how something works with no directions or explanation of what parts do. The gauge on the left is the low pressure gauge and not having done anything like this before, I was unsure of what it should be reading. I do remember that when I first began to use the regulator, the low pressure gauge did not indicate anything, it was at 0. However, I did some searching on APC and didn't find what that gauge was to be reading so I assumed it was right...I guess that was wrong.

This morning, the gauge is reading about 23 PSI. This is something new, that gauge never read that high before so I obviously had low pressure leading to my erratic rates. Before turning it on this morning, I triple checked the connections, hoses and check valve and all seemed OK. I then plugged back in the solenoid, heard the click and then tuned on the needle valve very little. It began to bubble from the hose immediately. I then attached the diffuser and restarted it and it began to bubble from the diffuser within seconds. The low pressure reading dropped a bit but then went back to about 23 and seems to be holding steady.

As I have no more fish, I am not as concerned about leaving the diffuser on. I will just be checking back and taking PH readings every hour to make sure I get it dialed in and keeping an eye on the low pressure gauge.

My thoughts are that even though I purged the tank prior to fitting the regulator, some junk got into it and plugged and it just happened to let loose when I was gone in the morning on Saturday and I had a CO2 overdose as a result.

If anyone had anything else to add, please do, I could use all the help I an get. Thanks to everyone for the support and help thus far, I really appreciate it! I hope the worst is over and I can move forward, get more fish and have a healthy planted tank.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Eric,

Sometimes low/erratic output pressure and performance is due to not fully opening the main (5#) tank valve.....it should be fully open when the regulator is installed. 23# is a good working pressure.


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Eric,
> 
> Sometimes low/erratic output pressure and performance is due to not fully opening the main (5#) tank valve.....it should be fully open when the regulator is installed. 23# is a good working pressure.


It's a thought but I have opened the main valve on the tank every time.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

EValP said:


> This morning, the gauge is reading about 23 PSI. This is something new, that gauge never read that high before so I obviously had low pressure leading to my erratic rates.


Very good to know that your system seems to be working now.

The thing about the low pressure being zero when you first tried the regulator is a bit puzzling. Even though some people had said that the low pressure of Azoo is not adjustable, according to MrSanders, it is adjustable. See:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...co2-azoo-regulator-experience.html#post101586

If by chance you had played with that "nut in the middle of the regulator" (in MrSanders' words), it could explain the change in low pressure.


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

bartoli said:


> Very good to know that your system seems to be working now.
> 
> The thing about the low pressure being zero when you first tried the regulator is a bit puzzling. Even though some people had said that the low pressure of Azoo is not adjustable, according to MrSanders, it is adjustable. See:
> 
> ...


No, I didn't fiddle with that nut. I knew it came preset so I left it alone.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Eric,

So how are things going now?


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Still consistent.

I will update again in the morning when it comes back on.


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## medicTHREE (Feb 5, 2010)

If you are experiencing a long delay in getting co2 out of the diffuser, your check valve is likely leaking. You need a nice quality one, not the typical ones with these lower end kits.

i actually really like the penn plax one sold on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/STAINLESS-STEEL...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a57914ef9)

This one isn't actually stainless steel like they say, it is brass, but it works great.

Closer to the tank is better, so I put it right at the rim of the aquarium. Now, get CO2 Tubing. My guess is your kit came with silicone tubing. Silicone tubing will actually lose co2 and waste gas plus cause co2 to back up into the diffuser.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

medicTHREE said:


> Silicone tubing will actually lose co2 and waste gas plus cause co2 to back up into the diffuser.


I wonder how a tubing, that does not leak, can lose or waste CO2? Do you know the mechanism involved?

Thanks.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi bartoli,

It is believed by some that the molecules of the CO2 are small enough that they can "leak" through less dense tubing like silicon or less expensive plastics. Unless I was running CO2 a long distance I doubt the loss would be significant.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Haven't thought of it at that level. Thanks Roy.

If someone can demonstrate it, it would be very interesting to see.


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

bartoli said:


> Haven't thought of it at that level. Thanks Roy.
> 
> If someone can demonstrate it, it would be very interesting to see.


I suppose that would be hard to quantify that but is also what I heard.



medicTHREE said:


> If you are experiencing a long delay in getting co2 out of the diffuser, your check valve is likely leaking. You need a nice quality one, not the typical ones with these lower end kits.


I do have the black tubing but have a cheaper plastic check valve, I will be getting a brass one soon, thanks for the link.

This morning the solenoid clicked on with the light and it started up just fine. LP is holding steady just above 20 PSI so everything seems to be fine. I will be anxious and checking it for the next week or so every morning and throughout the day but I think I am through the worst.


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## medicTHREE (Feb 5, 2010)

bartoli said:


> I wonder how a tubing, that does not leak, can lose or waste CO2? Do you know the mechanism involved?
> 
> Thanks.


Silicone Tubing DOES leak. Water molecules are much larger than gas, and thus do not seep. Silicone is actually one of the worst products for gas leakage. I have witnessed it cause problems.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi bartoli,
> 
> It is believed by some that the molecules of the CO2 are small enough that they can "leak" through less dense tubing like silicon or less expensive plastics. Unless I was running CO2 a long distance I doubt the loss would be significant.


I think you are putting undue skepticism into this post. There is no "thought". It is proven fact that silicone tubing does in fact leak co2(and many other gases) and that it is noticeable in the aquarium. In a short 5 foot run with two check valves, silicone tubing caused me to have 6 inches of water back up into tubing(through diffuser) over the course of 7 hours. "Standard co2 tubing" allowed none. This result is not uncommon.

Think of it very simple. Water molecules are much larger than gas molecules. Gas will look for the quickest way to dissipate, no matter what.


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Also, the Co2 will "harden" the tubing, and make the microscopic holes in the tubing...well...less microscopic


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Evalp - I've run many tanks with the expensive silicone co2 tubing and the cheapest hard plastic stuff from Lee's that you find in any LFS and I have never found any significant loss of co2 for any aquarium application I've ever used either for. In fact I've been using the cheap stuff on my 72g for the last year and it's worked great. I have about a 6 foot run of the tubing going to my tank. Technically the loss is happening but it's nothing to thing about or to add into the equation of getting co2 into your tank. I believe Seattle_Aquarist used the KISS term. That definitely applies here!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Ah, this thread is painful to read. I'm so sorry about what happened to your fish. I've never used an Azoo regulator, but I can tell you that they're all plenty twitchy - buggy - or whatever you want to call it.

For a nano-size aquarium, I'd really recommend getting a very fine needle valve for the setup. I never really liked my setup until I did that. Personally, I don't use check-valves....... dumb? Probably, but it's one less thing to worry about. It is VERY easy to kill fish with CO2.

Keep after it. It'll eventually work out.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

BryceM said:


> I've never used an Azoo regulator, but I can tell you that they're all plenty twitchy - buggy - or whatever you want to call it.


I too have never used an Azoo regulator. But based on what I have read on other people's experience, one should always check the low pressure when setting up an Azoo system or when comes time refilling the CO2 tank.


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, I am on my third day of steady CO2 and consistent readings so I think we are OK.

Now I have to deal with the other possible repercussions. First my biological filter. Since no one was able to give a definitive answer to if high CO2 will kill the biological filter, I have been testing the HN3 and NO2 along with my normal NO3 and PO4 tests for dosing. My thoughts where is it was dead or dying I would see a spike in one or both. They have been at 0 until today. Ammonia was slightly elevated, ever so slightly, and nitrite was still 0. My Nitrate levels have been a bit lower than normal but I figured that was because of the lack of fish so today I dosed ferts and put a small amount of fish food in the tank for the bio filter to eat. I am not sure when to introduce fish again.

Not sure if that is the right thing to do but again, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I am no getting what looks like Audouinella or beard algae; never had it before. I have had thread algae but that seems to be eradicated. I also had, and still have, GSA and it does not seem to be getting better. I am dosing phosphate from a water test to 1.0. My tank seems to need a lot of it every time I dose which is every other day (I dose Flourish the other days). The plants are holding steady. They are not showing signs of health nor sickness so I am just waiting.

Finally I just want to say thanks again to everyone. This forum has been my only saving grace and the support and advise from you guys saved me from trashing my tank. I have a lot to learn but I have a good resource here.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I think it's ok to put in fish. If you're getting 2 Ammonia and Nitrite you're ok. With your plants in there it will be fine. Cut back your light a little to get rid of the BBA. A water change will help. You can spot dose with Excell. It will kill it.


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## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Hi,
I have been messing around with C02 since Dec in two tanks. I'd like to give you a tip 
As your tank matures you will no doubt want to trim the plants. If you leave the C02 setting alone you will wind up with too much C02. So be extra careful to monitor around maintenance of the tank.

As far as tubing goes an ex guru here told me to simply change out the silicone tubing once a year. His experience was that the black C02 tubing is rather unflexible. If you are using your cannister filter as a reaction chamber non flexible tubing would be hard to shove up the filters intake tube. However as I think about it, you could simply drill the appropiate size hole into the tube.
Hope this helps you


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

For the GSA, dose with PO4 like you are doing. It sounds like you are dosing dry fertilizer. If this is the case do a 50% water change and try adding 1 gram PO4 per every 500 gallons every day (you can use the fertilator to find out how much that is with tsps, etc). Scrape the GSA off every morning also, until you have no more GSA. Once the GSA has dissapeared, it is likely that you will have to continue dosing the PO4 every week at the same amount it took to rid of the GSA.

GSA is caused by high nitrates and low PO4. You can correct it by doing the above (adding PO4), or trying to reduce your NO3.

More on these "imbalances" can be found in the algae threads under a sticky called "Method of Controlled Imbalances".

Glad to hear everything's starting to fall in place!


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Aquaticz said:


> As far as tubing goes an ex guru here told me to simply change out the silicone tubing once a year. His experience was that the black C02 tubing is rather unflexible. If you are using your cannister filter as a reaction chamber non flexible tubing would be hard to shove up the filters intake tube. However as I think about it, you could simply drill the appropiate size hole into the tube.
> Hope this helps you


I was told that injecting CO2 into a canister filter is bad for the filter, it that correct. I think he mentioned high CO2 could mess up the seals and o-rings. With what it does to normal airline, I am inclined to believe this, can someone confirm?



flashbang009 said:


> For the GSA, dose with PO4 like you are doing. It sounds like you are dosing dry fertilizer. If this is the case do a 50% water change and try adding 1 gram PO4 per every 500 gallons every day (you can use the fertilator to find out how much that is with tsps, etc). Scrape the GSA off every morning also, until you have no more GSA. Once the GSA has dissapeared, it is likely that you will have to continue dosing the PO4 every week at the same amount it took to rid of the GSA.
> 
> GSA is caused by high nitrates and low PO4. You can correct it by doing the above (adding PO4), or trying to reduce your NO3.
> 
> ...


I am dosing liquid fert, it is Seachem nitrates, phosphates and potassium. I guess I will just up my phosphate levels and limit the lights to 8 hours for now. I can scrape the GSA off of everything but the plant leaves, it wont come off of them. Should I snip them or will it disappear with higher PO4?

I think the "balance" is off because of no fish. Do you think I am OK adding fish back now? I feel like I should get the levels balanced before I do but I am sure they will change again with fish. I am kinda gun shy. lol


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Unless you add a lot of fish, they shouldn't change those levels too much. Nitrate maybe, but not too bad. I would wait to get your levels right. You have to be very careful with upping phosphate, it can do some nasty stuff if you aren't careful. You might try posting in the Method of controlled imbalances thread and ask him what you should do if you're using seachem's phosphate. 

Easiest thing might be dropping the amount of nitrate's you're adding. How long has the tank been set up?


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

I'll drop a line into that thread. I started reading it and it was one of the most confusing things I have read in some time. lol. It was talking about using potassium nitrate if I am not mistaken. I don't know where I would even get such a thing. I imagine I will end up on some watch list if I order it online.

I had no idea this hobby would be so complicated. I mean I knew it was gonna be a lot of work but I feel as though I should be a chemist or something...sheesh. 

My tank has been setup for about 7 weeks and fish and plants for about 4. My tank is a 20 gal and it was heavily planted. I have thinned it out some removing the ground cover I had because it was collecting slime and algae and began to suffer. I also had some rotala wallachii die I think from lack of CO2 when I was using that yeast crap; it got thread algae in it bad. Everything else is doing OK...still alive that is. I do have a klener bar that is really thriving.


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Haha, that thread can be confusing. The last page or two is the full instructions, not just summaries here or there. The potassium nitrate is actually a very common form of nitrate/potassium that aquarists use. This can be found at www.aquariumfertilizer.com You don't have to use it, but its just another fertilizing option.

This hobby is all what you make it i've found. You don't have to use complicated chemicals and such if you don't want to. You've already got the liquid fertilizer, so you might as well continue with that. Correct the ratios if they're out of whack and you should be algae free. Flow is also an algae inducer. If you don't have good circulation/flow, you can run into algae problems.


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## huaidan (Mar 6, 2010)

Wow...
I've read all this after setting up yeast and sugar in a 2 liter bottle and feeding it into an auxiliary output on a filter powerhead. It's airtight, lets out a spritz of pure co2 every 20 seconds or so. It's a 100 gal tank. Plants are common: Amazon sword, pygmy sword, ludwigia, hornwort, java fern, a red, broader-leaf sword, giant anubias, and heteranthera. All seem to be showing robust improvement after 2 days. Maybe coincidence, but I was astounded by the anubias, which had sat dormant for a week after planting it. After rigging co2, three fat new leaf-rolls appeared the next day.

I'm running 28 celsius This is hot, I know, but it's a new setup and the heat will aid the cycling and bring out any ich I've might have brought in with the plants. Brown algae seems to have passed its peak. I've got a single 2" black moor to test for overdosing co2 and indicate ich that might have hitchhiked on a new plant. Some may call this cruel, but I bought him from a chinese street vender for $0.50 US, and right now he's living it up better than he ever could in some kid's goldfish bowl. He's not bothered by the heat one bit, either, or the high co2 environment.

Overall, I'm happy with this cheap setup. Comments?


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## EValP (Feb 5, 2010)

Well if its working for you your all set. If you haven't I would test for co2 levels to see if it really is putting out enough because I only had a 20 gal and my ph never changed on a yeast setup. I also have a few more high maintenance plants but overall if yeast works for you, then keep it.


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