# How much more difficult is it to keep planted tank with discus ?



## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

Hi !

How much more difficult do you think is it to keep planted discus tank ?

Let's say, if we have a high light planted tank and we raise the temp to accommodate discus and add the ferts, how much more problematic are things going to be ?**Are discuss going to suffer from all the light and ferts ? Will plants hurt and stop growing from high temp ?

While ago, I had a 200G discus tank.**I mostly made sure that discuss are comfortable and it really took the toll on the plants.**Basically the plants were not growing at all (may be an inch in a couple of months).**Now, I am hoping to start a planted discuss tank and just want to know what kind of trouble I am looking at.

I see those nice pictured of plated discuss tank, but I am not sure if it's a sustainable set up.**I am not providing any specs, since I really just want to generate a discussion.

So, what do you think ?


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

I have a planted 65gal tank that I just started on with Discus. My parameters are

I have a 6 hr photo period and the peak of the day has 312watts of T5 lights in the tank
I've finally stabilized the ph at 6.75
Temperature sits at 83 degrees F
Pressurized CO2
and I'll be dosing PPS-Pro as soon as th dry ferts arrive in the mail.

So far my plants are growing nicely with the exception of some algae in the tank but
I believe that had to do with too much light (I use to run the lights for 10 hrs a day).
The discus are new so its no surprise they're shy but they are eating and they love hiding
behind the plants, in fact, I think they prefer a planted tank for the shelter. 

I've been pretty religious with weekly water changes, but now that I have the discus, I think I
may go with changes twice a week. On avg I change about 20% of the water and the plants seem
fine because of it. Right now I get average plant growth for species like Rotala sp, amazons, hornworts, and the anubias barteri. The only plant that aren't doing so well are my HCs but that has
more to do with my pleco eating them lol.

I'll be interested to hear from someone who's manage a planted tank with discus for a longer period.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

I have never kept them, but I have read numerous posts from folks with discus and plants with some beautiful tanks.


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## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks for the replies !

Hi, everyone who has discus planted tank, how difficult are you finding it to keep plants/discus healthy in combination ?


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## Dantra (May 15, 2007)

This will be a very interesting discussion for me because I am in the process of putting together a 55 gallon planted aquarium. I originally was going with "Discus" however, I believe the tank will be too small. After careful consideration, I'm 90% sure I'll be going with "Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi" which, from the way I understand it, require the same water conditions as the "Discus" or very close to it.

If I'm wrong about keeping "Discus" in the 55 gallon tank please enlighten me.


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## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

So, by the number of experienced replies we should probably conclude that plants + discus are a bit of a challange  

ezeke1, be sure to post how things go for you !


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

Dantra said:


> This will be a very interesting discussion for me because I am in the process of putting together a 55 gallon planted aquarium. I originally was going with "Discus" however, I believe the tank will be too small. After careful consideration, I'm 90% sure I'll be going with "Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi" which, from the way I understand it, require the same water conditions as the "Discus" or very close to it.
> 
> If I'm wrong about keeping "Discus" in the 55 gallon tank please enlighten me.


I'm not sure why a 55gal would be too small for discus unless you plan to overstock it with many 5-8" adults. On Friday a new shipment of 2x3" baby discus and a dozen cardinal tetras arrives. This will increase my fish population to 2x3" baby red melons, 2x 3" baby golden leopard snakeskin , a 4.5" spotted leopard skin, and 18 tetras along with a medium size pleco. That's a pretty heavy fishload and if this was a reef aquarium and the discus were tangs, I'm sure the tang police will be knocking on my door  However I do 20% water changes twice weekly, don't really overfeed and I plan to up my water changes to 3 per week as well as continuing to add more plants and strong filtration to counter the rising bioload.

Unfortunately my dry chemicals and weight scale are enroute so I can't really comment on fertilizers and discus but as of now, my assortment of plants are growing nicely. The most notable growers are my rotala species, amazon swords, marsilea minuta(baby clovers), and marsilea quadrifolia . I'm stocking the tank with some blyxa japonica and other ludwigia varieties this week and once I start fertilizing I'll have a better idea of how that affects the discus. But they're eating well now and getting less shy so that's progress


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## lotus02 (Feb 16, 2005)

Wow there are tang police here too I thought they were restricted to saltwater only. Man I can't shake those guys no matter where I go.


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

If I had to name one challenge to keeping discus with plants, I'd say keeping the tank and water clean. The discus's demand for ultra clean water requires frequent water changes so naturally the gravel and plants pose obstacles to siphoning the tank - no wonder many discus owners keep their tank bare bottom.


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## holyscoly (May 11, 2007)

lol i have a purple tang in my 75 gallon reef.i have a 55 and was wondering how many discus i can put in it (small 2-3 inches) i have 2 german blue rams and 10 cardinals right now.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

ezeke1 said:


> I have a planted 65gal tank that I just started on with Discus. My parameters are
> 
> I have a 6 hr photo period and the peak of the day has 312watts of T5 lights in the tank
> I've finally stabilized the ph at 6.75
> ...


The light intensity may be too high for the discus. 4 to 5 hours @ 200 watts would be sufficient to grow healthy plants. Too much light will force you to work harder to maintain a balanced tank. There is no reason to keep the fish @ 83F if you have very clean/stable water. The fish will live longer in the high 70s, plus they will develop a stronger immune system over time.

Many petshops keep cardinals and discus at elevated temperature to ward-off disease due to overcrowding and lower water quality. I've raised discus and cards for decades with 76F tap water during the winter (8.2 pH/10KH). Nominal life expectancy for discus with our local tap water is around 11 years, but I've had 14 years old fish. Expect +17 years if you have clean soft acidic water.

DO NOT feed discus frozen food because they can contain harmful parasites/bacteria. I prefer earthworm or boiled shrimp diced to size to suit the fish.

This is a high-maintenance fish. Frequent water change is a must if you want to keep them in top form. Vac the gravel at least once a week.


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

furballi said:


> The light intensity may be too high for the discus. 4 to 5 hours @ 200 watts would be sufficient to grow healthy plants. Too much light will force you to work harder to maintain a balanced tank. There is no reason to keep the fish @ 83F if you have very clean/stable water. The fish will live longer in the high 70s, plus they will develop a stronger immune system over time.
> 
> Many petshops keep cardinals and discus at elevated temperature to ward-off disease due to overcrowding and lower water quality. I've raised discus and cards for decades with 76F tap water during the winter (8.2 pH/10KH). Nominal life expectancy for discus with our local tap water is around 11 years, but I've had 14 years old fish. Expect +17 years if you have clean soft acidic water.
> 
> ...


Temperature doesn't appear to be the X factor in keeping discus so anything in the high 70s to high 80s is acceptable. I think you have a good point about petshops/breeders keeping their temps high to ward off disease and it makes sense to maintain that temp in our aquariums as well.

Would Hikari frozen bloodworms be an exception to your rule of not feeding frozen foods? Both breeders which I purchased my discus from feed their fish hikari bloodworms because the food is sterilized. Around here there is no reliable source for earthworms so I've been feeding mine bloodworms and omega flakes. Boiled shrimp sounds like a feasible option. One thing I plan to try is a beefheart mix. Check out this link, these breeders in Maryland cook up some crazy stuff for their discus.

Discus Food Mix


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

ezeke1 said:


> Temperature doesn't appear to be the X factor in keeping discus so anything in the high 70s to high 80s is acceptable. I think you have a good point about petshops/breeders keeping their temps high to ward off disease and it makes sense to maintain that temp in our aquariums as well.
> 
> Would Hikari frozen bloodworms be an exception to your rule of not feeding frozen foods? Both breeders which I purchased my discus from feed their fish hikari bloodworms because the food is sterilized. Around here there is no reliable source for earthworms so I've been feeding mine bloodworms and omega flakes. Boiled shrimp sounds like a feasible option. One thing I plan to try is a beefheart mix. Check out this link, these breeders in Maryland cook up some crazy stuff for their discus.
> 
> Discus Food Mix


It's hard to verify the cleanliness of any frozen food.

Most quality breeders that I've worked with in the past use their own recipe (like beefheart mix) because it is more nutritious and *CHEAPER* than live food. Some dealers will tell you that they use live food to distinguish their products from others. Let's face it, how can you dispute this claim without being there during feeding time?

I alternate a variety of staple food with some earthworm/shrimp. Discus will make a mess during feeding time. It's always best to maintain a small school of cardinals in the tank to clean up those uneaten bits.


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

Here is a good thread on keeping Discus and Planted tanks - definitely worth a read.

aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-planted-aquarium/24497-wet-thumb-forum-discus.html


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Link doesn't work


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

Try now.

The tag is not working for the link an...nd that will generate a valid link
:confused:


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Got it, thanks


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## gibmaker (Jan 3, 2007)

It can a bit of a challenge at times, but once you get it going and get into a routine I think it is just like any other tank. I have a 125 gal planted discus tank that has to be the most beautifull tank I have ever owned.


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## ezeke1 (May 1, 2007)

gibmaker said:


> It can a bit of a challenge at times, but once you get it going and get into a routine I think it is just like any other tank. I have a 125 gal planted discus tank that has to be the most beautifull tank I have ever owned.


Got any pics of your tank gibmaker?


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## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

gibmaker, what kind of plants do you have ? what's the temperature you maintain ? did you start off with discus conditions in the tank or did you let plants grow in in a cooler water with more light at first ? too many questions ?


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

i dont think its very hard keeping discus in a planted tank you just need to be careful on what plants you select, geneally you want soft water plants that can tolerate life in the 80's i keep my tank at 80-82 degrees i tried to find a happy medium between what the plants and the discus favor, after that all you need is adequate biological filtration, good light, daily dosings, and co2 and your set


















http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/40721-my-new-diy-180-gallon-naquarium.html


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## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks for the info jazzlvr123 !

In your experience, what plants seem to do better then the others ?


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## Bill Wilson (May 5, 2005)

I've been maintaining a planted 6x2x2 discus tank for 2 years and I have to say it is a challenge.

I think the higher temp promotes BGA greatly, I had a massive outbreak of BGA days after getting my tank running and even though I've followed advice from different sources still get outbreaks. Dropping the temp from around 30c to 27-28c has helped reduce it though.

I've also been battling BBA pretty much constantly and I suspect the higher temps again make this worse, but I can't be sure.

As you reduce the temp a bit to compromise for plant health, as well as ferts & co2 gets added etc I find the Discus are more prone to problems in a planted tank than in a bare bottom tank, and simple things like worming medication can impact the plants. Any medication requires pulling the Discus out and putting in a seperate tank to avoid problems with plants & bristlenose however this also adds stress to an already sick fish by catching & transferring. To be successful and reduce problems I have found the Discus need to be healthy adults before adding them to a planted tank otherwise they will not grow as well and tend to get sick easily. 

Pigeon Blood discus will get much more peppering in a planted tank too, I've added pigeon's that are clean in a bare bottom that pepper heavily after a while in the planted tank and look terrible. Discus can also get stressed by the constant pruning and maintenence a planted tank requires so you need to be careful. I find weekly maintenance rather than daily is a fair compromise to keeping the tank looking nice, and not over stressing the discus with hands constantly in the tank.

Plants are fine, although obvisouly plants like elodia cannot handle high temps, and I find Java ferns struggle with the higher temps.

Having said all the above, I love my tank even with the constant BGA & BBA battles, attached is a photo of it inbetween outbreaks. If you have the patience & dedication I personally don't think anything looks better than a planted discus tank!


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## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks for the useful info, Bill ! It's a beautiful tank ! I think planted discus has distinctly different look then planted-no-discus. Very charming.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

I keep discus between 76 and 78F during the winter. The key is clean water. I change 50% of the water 2x/week. Local tap water is 8.2pH with 10KH.

I also avoid commercial frozen food. Chopped earthworm or boiled shrimp are cleaner and more nutritious source of supplemental protein.


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## Bill Wilson (May 5, 2005)

furballi said:


> I keep discus between 76 and 78F during the winter. The key is clean water. I change 50% of the water 2x/week. Local tap water is 8.2pH with 10KH.


Thats about 24-25c right? do you find they are a bit "skittish" at that temp?

And yeah w/c's with discus are critical, I also change at least 1/week but usually 2/week. unfortunately my aging barrell is only big enough to allow about a 35% change max though.



voshod said:


> Thanks for the useful info, Bill ! It's a beautiful tank ! I think planted discus has distinctly different look then planted-no-discus. Very charming.


Thanks voshod! that pic was taken about a month ago when the tank had been running right on 2 years without being stripped, pulled down or anything other than the occasional med & a few blackouts.

I've had tanks before and certainly discus, but this is my first (and only so far) planted discus tank. It's been a lot of trial and error & learning along the way, but very rewarding as well!


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

i have been breeding for many years, many people argue that keeping discus at lower temps makes them stronger, the naked truth is how they do in lower temperatures is directly related to how they were initially raised, many professional breeders raise their discus using RO water and high temperatures, these discus usually do not do well once put into a colder tank later in life, it actually weakens their immune system after awhile and you will see your discus getting finicky, "twitchy" and skinny. However many smaller scare breeders raise their discus in the high 70's low 80's using untreated hard tap water. these discus that were initially raised in somewhat harsher environments, typically do better in colder temps and higher ph the rest of their life's. the drawback of this is that their lifespan is usually cut back around 4 or so years and i found that discus like pigeon blood or any other lighter colored discus are more prone to black peppering in these conditions.
as far as plants go i generally like using sword plants, tiger lotus, Anubias, riccia, and HC as a carpet plant. there is such an array of plants available that will do fine in soft water conditions that i will not even start to name them, I would first study what type of plants you would like to add and then go look up Their PH, KH, and GH requirements.


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## voshod (Mar 22, 2007)

Bill Wilson and jazzlvr123,

Did you have any trouble with discus not tolerating the lighting required for the plants ?


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

voshod said:


> Bill Wilson and jazzlvr123,
> 
> Did you have any trouble with discus not tolerating the lighting required for the plants ?


discus are very forgiving when it comes to lighting, they will do fine in tanks with even 4+ WPG (like mine) on the contrary they do just as well in as tank with one or less WPG (about the ammount of light my grow out tanks receive) . all you need to know when it comes to lighting is that discus sleep too, i would give them at least 10-12 hours of night (no light) everyday to avoid stressing the discus, because when a discus gets stressed, it leads to disease. this will also reduce your problems with BGA


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## Bill Wilson (May 5, 2005)

jazzlvr123 said:


> discus are very forgiving when it comes to lighting, they will do fine in tanks with even 4+ WPG (like mine) on the contrary they do just as well in as tank with one or less WPG (about the ammount of light my grow out tanks receive) . all you need to know when it comes to lighting is that discus sleep too, i would give them at least 10-12 hours of night (no light) everyday to avoid stressing the discus, because when a discus gets stressed, it leads to disease. this will also reduce your problems with BGA


I agree - My tank pictured above is about 2.8wpg on a 9 hour photo period and they are perfectly fine, I think all discus are far more sensitive to water conditions and temp than light.

In fact when mine are happy & begging for food, they will swim right up under the lights to get closer to me & the usual feeding spot with no concern at all, if the water or temp isn't to their liking thats when I will find them "sulking" near the back.

The great thing about discus is they will "tell you" with their behaviour how well you are looking after them, I know I'm doing ok as a keeper when my "borderline chubby" discus swim right up to greet me and will follow me as I walk past the tank bobbing & begging for food!


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

Bill Wilson said:


> The great thing about discus is they will "tell you" with their behaviour how well you are looking after them, I know I'm doing ok as a keeper when my "borderline chubby" discus swim right up to greet me and will follow me as I walk past the tank bobbing & begging for food!


haha sounds like my discus bill, i like your choice or discus in your tank they all look fat and healthy how old are they? my discus are flat out pigs, the second they even see me enter the room all fifteen discus will swim up to the glass and give me those puppy dog eyes until i feed them  i don't think they could ever get enough food,


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## Bill Wilson (May 5, 2005)

jazzlvr123 said:


> haha sounds like my discus bill, i like your choice or discus in your tank they all look fat and healthy how old are they? my discus are flat out pigs, the second they even see me enter the room all fifteen discus will swim up to the glass and give me those puppy dog eyes until i feed them  i don't think they could ever get enough food,


Thanks! and yeah, when I get home from work it's obviously been a while since they've been fed - as soon as they see me they dart to the corner where I feed them as a group and bob up & down. They get so enthusastic the "bobs" are almost full height of the tank, gives me a giggle every time.

It's when they stay at the back of the tank and "dart off" if I come close I know that somethings not right.

I've got a couple that must be about 3 years old, the bulk of them I've had for 2 years and a couple of younger ones, I tried to find a group photo of my discus and couldn't find a good one - but the attached pic gives a better idea of how they really come to see what I'm doing and the camera has them confused - it's obviously not food!


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## Dracolique (May 28, 2007)

I keep my 5 discus, 3 angels, 10 tetras and 5 rams in a 55 gallon planted tank, and have for 6 months now. (Do not lecture me on the dangers of keeping angels with Discus.. I have never had a problem so long as the Angels were properly treated and quarantined first).

Temp: 87 farenheit
Lighting: 4WPG 10 hours a day
pH: 6.2 (obtained through peat in the cannister filter)
TDS: 68 PPM
CO2: None.
Driftwood: A large decorative centerpiece and a smaller piece off to the side.
Plants: basic, easy and fast growing (this is a Discus tank first, planted tank second): various swords and grasses, java moss and (soon) water lettuce.

I use a regular garden soil substrate fertilized with dissolved organics (manure, etc.), held down by a light layer of gravel, and constantly aierated by plant roots, burrowing worms and (soon to be) MTS, as well as various unknown "critters"

I feed pure, grated beef heart in the morning, high quality flake in the afternoon, and a mixture of the two + small shrimp and supplements in the evening.

My Discus do not seem to mind the high lighting, as they have the leaves of the larger plants do duck under when they need to, but they spend most of their time in the open. If I had wild caught Discus I would not keep them is such intense lighting, but my captive bred don't seem to mind one bit.

My Discus are always active, happy and love schooling around with the Angels and each other. They always follow me around and love watching TV when it is on (which is rarely). I have never had any diseases or anything else major.

Last week I accidentally stirred up a small pocket of apparently anaerobic substrate, and the discus immediately darkened and showed their stress lines... a quick 50% water change cleared that little problem up. But it is the reason I am getting MTS as soon as possible... apparently the substrate needs more stirring that I am currently providing.

Other than that, no problems... as has been stated so many times, I believe that if you keep the plants healthy, the fish will follow suit... even Discus. Of course you need to keep the temperature in the proper range, but everything after that is just gravy.

Unless you are breeding... then it is a whole new can of worms.


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