# BGA with High nitrates+Good filtration



## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

I have been struggling with BGA in both my tanks for a while now. I have tried a few different solutions and none have lasted. It's rampant in my high tech 60g and my lower tech lower light 29g. I have 3bps of co2 into my 60g's inline reactor and I haven't gotten my DIY drop checker to stop leaking so I am guessing I have enough co2.

I dose 10mls of flourish in the 60g every other day. And 5ml every other day in the 29g.

I have an xp2 on the 29g and a 2217 on my 60g.

29G: I have a 10hr photoperiod with one 65w bulb and DIY co2 on my 29g. Ph is about 7. Nitrates are over 20... too hard to tell where in the over 20 range. 0 ammonia.

60g: I have a 7hr photoperiod with 2x54w Tek t5ho bulbs. I also use pressurized co2 at a little less than 3bps but it's hard to count. Ph is ~6.6. Nitrate over 20 a little lighter than the 29g but still over 20 for sure. No ammonia.

I would test my KH but I can find the bottle at the moment.

Solution 1:
Black out on both tanks

Result 1:
Killed all the algae and I easily vacuumed it away, only it returned days later.

Solution 2:
Maracyn: I used Erythromycin to try and kill it in my 29g.

Result 2:
Once again it all died and it came back just as strong.

Solution 3:
Layer of floating plants: I tried to cut the light and increase the amount of plants in my 29g by introducing a lot of floating plants. It had stalled the growth of the BGA on my 60g but had the same result so I stopped.

Result 3:
It stalled the growth of the BGA but it started to kill my plants because of the lack of light.

Solution 4: I removed 95% of the stuff manually from my 60g tank and upped all the fertilizers. I normally dose 1/2 tsp kno3 and 1/4tsp po4. I also introduced more kso4 to make sure it wasn't a k deficiency.

Result 4:
Little or no effect on either tank.

Solution 5:
I cleaned both filters with old tank water. Both where pretty dirty but I hadn't noticed a significant decrease in flow. I just read that cleaning your filter can help with BGA.

Result 5: A little more water movement and little to no effect on the BGA in either tank.

Solution 6: 7 ottos and 5 Amanos to my 60g.

Result 6: Well I didn't really think they would eat the BGA but it was worth a try. I actually only had the shrimp alive for a few hours. I only have one left now... Don't know why but that's probably a different problem.

I plan on trying Seachem Excel again. I used it before to spot treat some algae. I haven't read anything about its effectiveness against BGA but I am kind of desperate.

I have been using peat to lower the ph of the water before water changes... Could the peat be giving me something that is inducing the BGA growth? I read that lots of mulm and decomposing material can induce BGA; perhaps the peat is having a similar effect.

My other plan of attack if it doesn't magically improve is to make a few smaller water changes with regular tap water. Clean the filters again to get rid of any peat that could have gotten in it. Manually remove as much as I can. And if it starts to grow back hit it with a black or Maracyn... depending on whether I can find some cheap erythromycin.

Please help me. My field of Eleocharis parvula is all tipped with BGA and it just spreads like crazy...

Here is a link to some pictures of my 60g... I don't have any recent pictures of my 29g my battles with BGA have been brutal on that tank. Look at the last page.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...4-60g-journal-first-attempt-at-iwagumi-4.html


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## AMP (Nov 11, 2006)

Slick, 
I am far from a pro on this, but here goes,when I first started into the planted culture, I was told to expect Algae, and boy did it ever begin to start, every other day I did 45 to 50% water changes, added Pressurized CO2 which you have, and dosed the heck out of it with Excel for a week straight. 

I also used DE with the water changes while cleaning the gunk and back flushed the canisters as well, along with API's Algae destroyer, Seeing I started out new, and people have said algae removers will harm plants, I said lets see, not one plant died, Lucky maybe...

That was in December, I have since followed Seachams dosing regime along with plant sticks in the fluorite here we are in February all I have to do now, is weekly water changes and the occasional sweep of the tank walls, all the plants are thriving and my Swordtail's are giving birth as well.


PS The Link is broken


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

I have no problem killing the algae. Its just it keeps coming back. I don't want to use any algae destroyer. I have had plenty of luck keeping algae away in the past and I just can't seem to figure out whats caused this change.

I also have a bunch of green neons and a shrimp in there. I have a hard enough time keeping my shrimp alive without using harsh chemicals. Excel is about as hard core as I am willing to go at the moment.

Thanks for the reply though.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Maybe your nitrate test kit is incorrect. I dose 1/2 tsp KNO3 every other day on a 45 gallon tank, so your use of the same for a tank a third bigger makes me wonder if you have enough. I also dose about 3/8 tsp of KH2PO4 every other day. But, I understand BG algae may be a sign of low nitrate, not low phosphate. It shouldn't hurt to increase both ferts to see what the effect is.


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

When I was dosing high. It was 1tsp kno3 + 1/2 po4 at water change and half that every other day. I have no stem plants so This was a bit to much IMO. It also had no negative effect on the algae. I also like to feed my green neons a lot to fatten them up.

A while ago I checked my no3 test against a reference and it was pretty close. I guess I could do that again... but will probably not.

In the past I had a small problem with bga in my 29g when I forgot to dose for a while. Now no matter what I do or how I kill it comes back like crazy... 

I can only come up with low co2 but thats because I have no way of knowing for sure how much I have and I don't want to increase it because I already killed a couple neons doing that...


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Have you tried putting in a whole bunch of fast growers? From the pictures it looks like you started out with a pretty low plant mass and not many fast growers.

I've never been able to start out a well lit planted tank with low plant mass and no fast growers without having all sorts of algae problems (I still don't know how Amano does it, if that's what he does). But starting out with a good fast growing plant mass I've had much better success. Once the tank is more established, you can slowly start removing the plants you don't want (and perhaps adjust your dosing accordingly).


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## Tonka (Mar 20, 2004)

OK, my 2 cents (I just noticed that the "cents" symbol has disapppeared from our keyboards? Never mind, I'm inadvertently revealing how "experienced" I am!).

For me, BGA and hair (the very long streaming kind) are the only two kinds of algae I have trouble with - even with monthly water changes. I control my nutrients within accepted ranges by daily dosing, testing every 10 days with calibrated LaMotte test kits, and adjusting if needed. I also double-dose Excel.

BGA develops in the few places in my tank where there is very little circulation. I have a powerhead with a well-perforated black vinyl hose attached snaked through the rear of my tank (behind the background plants) that provides flow to nooks and crannies elsewhere not reached by my filter outflow. Of course, adjusting the hose to take care of the BGA always reduces flow in other spots where BGA grows again.

I think BGA is encouraged by overfeeding / overstocking too. Even though your fish my have eaten all the food within the prescribed two minutes, they are still going to poop all that out. Sure, the "biological filter" is degrading the poop, but there are other products of the cycle besides nitrate. I think these organics are manifested through increased levels of BGA.

So my recommendation would be to get a relatively high flow submersable pump (I have an Eheim 1250) and direct its stream with "attachments" to provide some circulation everywhere in your tank while avoiding surface agitation and your plants moving in an annoying manner. This will reduce BGA and keep "mulm" from collecting in spots where your filter intake can't get at it.

Also, I would keep the number / size of fish you stock to a minimum

Finally, IMHO, as long as your other nutrients are within accepted ranges and they remain week after week within the same part of that range, problems of all sorts are minimized. Consistency is everything.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Tonka said:


> OK, my 2 cents (I just noticed that the "cents" symbol has disapppeared from our keyboards? Never mind, I'm inadvertently revealing how "experienced" I am!).
> 
> For me, BGA and hair (the very long streaming kind) are the only two kinds of algae I have trouble with - even with monthly water changes. I control my nutrients within accepted ranges by daily dosing, testing every 10 days with calibrated LaMotte test kits, and adjusting if needed. I also double-dose Excel.
> 
> ...


Wow Tonka you completely stole my thunder! I do agree with most of what Tonka said except for the flow issue. I'm not sold on that in general.
If your dosing EI there generally should be enough in there for the plants to continue growing since it's constantly replenished. After all, it's not an exact science. thus the word "Estimate" Of course enough light and co2 is needed as well. That being said I think most of your issue is with organic control. Seems I'm always saying that, but in your case it seems to be true. Over time, organics from feeding, fish load, decaying plants, etc build up and the biofilter can't handle the load and algae creeps in much quicker even when other things are kept the same like dosing, light, etc. This build up even happens if your doing gravel washes on a regular basis, although it helps alot. In your case it's also made worse by the small plant load that isn't able to assist the actual filter with the "suck up" of these nutrients. I have varied no3 dosing in my 72g from 1/3 to 3/4 tsp (never dosed more) and I have never had any algae other than alittle bba on some rocks and I attribute that to the fact that my tank is 18 months old and organics have built up. This build up IMO is based on fish load, fish feeding and the plant growth/load. I have a school of cardinals that I've had for well over a year and I feed my fish 6 times a week a pinch once a day. Small fish always find something to nibble on and don't need to be feed that much IMO. I would bet if you increased plant mass, did a really good cleaning/water change and put your fish on the "south beach diet" you would see improvement.

Warning: I could be totally wrong!


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Laith said:


> Have you tried putting in a whole bunch of fast growers? From the pictures it looks like you started out with a pretty low plant mass and not many fast growers.
> 
> I've never been able to start out a well lit planted tank with low plant mass and no fast growers without having all sorts of algae problems (I still don't know how Amano does it, if that's what he does). But starting out with a good fast growing plant mass I've had much better success. Once the tank is more established, you can slowly start removing the plants you don't want (and perhaps adjust your dosing accordingly).


I agree with Laith, you were onto something with solution 3. Instead of floating plants, just put in a ton of fast growers.

I use H. difformis and E. densa. Both are weeds and will easily pack on two to three inches per day.

I restarted my high tech 29 recently with these plants and other than some green dust, no algae at all.

I used to be a big fan of Excel to kill algae but have also found that sometimes it doesn't do squat. I think it is most helpful in conjunction with a heavily planted tank.

I have always found that when I trimmed out too much and got my plant load too low algae started creeping in..

So revisit solution number 3..


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

I would like to also throw out an idea based on the comments about organic buildup.

I am going to be trying out Purigen in my filter this week based on the positive review of it from Jeff Senske.

The Seachem website says of Purigen:



> Purigen™ controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds.


My totally baseless speculation is that Purigen might help to prevent/control algae outbreaks that are in fact due to organic buildup.

Along the same line of thought, pulling out all your plants, thoroughly stirring up the substrate, doing a water change, stirring up again, doing another water change, doing that three, four times.. or more if you want, and then replanting with those fast growers.

I did that when I restarted my tank and was amazed at the amount of gunk, rotten leaves, old roots, etc., that accumulated in the substrate over a year's time.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

banderbe said:


> I would like to also throw out an idea based on the comments about organic buildup.
> 
> I am going to be trying out Purigen in my filter this week based on the positive review of it from Jeff Senske.
> 
> ...


I've used Purigen as preventive medicine. I'm not saying it didn't work, but let's just say I haven't missed it and it's another thing to maintain. You have to recharge it with bleach. Anything that is going to help absorb organics will only help. The most effective approach is hitting the BGA from both sides. Reduce organics into the tank and increase plant mass to take out existing organics. The amount of organics produced by dead plant material and overfeeding is a big problem IMO in planted tanks. I've said this before, but whatever the feeding instructions is on the fish food cut it in half. It's a business and they want you to buy more food quicker, but in reality your fish aren't going to starve, especially the small ones that most keep in planted aquaria. Funny my laundry get clean when I use half the recommended dose listed on the detergent.


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

Well maybe I shouldn't have said I feed them that much. I have 30 green neons a few ottos and one zebra loach in my 60g. And in my 29g 3 apistos and 1 otto. The apistos get fed a few pellets every other day. I mean small pellets. I think they find stuff around the tank to eat.

The green neons get feed those micro pellets from Hikari. So Its only one pinch but it looks like a lot because they are so tiny. 

I would buy into the organics thing, But I am not going to add any stems at this point. I have every square inch of the substrate covered in some grass. I don't want to dig any up to put in some stems because its all grown together and I would disturb a lot more than that small area. Floating plants meant regular salvinia minima with floating stems... rotalas and some fast growing big leafed stem plant. I removed them for the pictures because they blocked the light and they where pretty unsightly. My 29g got all of the floating plants so Its got a lot of plants in it. I guess I can put some floaters back in my 60g. 

I think it must be a build up of organics but my guess is from the plants themselves. I started out with a lot of hair grass and some of it started to die off either from lack of light during my algae fight or some other cause. I change 50% water every week religously along with two 50% this weekend only to have it explode back. During my battles in my 29g I lost a ton of plants... all that rotala rotundifolia I have about 5 stems left...

Flow is not going to be increased in either tank. My 60g has no stems to disrupt the flow. I cant get flow in between every hair grass strand thats impossible. In my 29g I have the xp2 and a powerhead to spray my diy co2. The plants are already getting blown around.

I will buy into the build of organics but I don't know any way of effectively removing more organics than lots of vacuming/water changes and filter cleanings. I might try some zeolite and carbon just because I have it laying around. 

Thanks for all the suggestions. I hope by eliminating the organic build up I can win this battle.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I had a BGA problem in my 40g tank and I gave the tank a really good clean, syphoning out as much of that and any debris up from the tank and upping the water changes. I also added Carbon to my filter to help reduce any organics in the water.

It went and hasn't come back, yet!


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

I just changed 50% of the water in my 60g. I couldnt siphon it all off so I am going to do a blackout. I also thoroughly cleaned my 2217. Taking all of the media out and really cleaning it as best I could in the old tank water. I wont fertilize until after the blackout and I have changed another 50%. I used up most of my carbon. I will have to go buy some before I clean my 29g.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

slickwillislim said:


> I just changed 50% of the water in my 60g. I couldnt siphon it all off so I am going to do a blackout. I also thoroughly cleaned my 2217. Taking all of the media out and really cleaning it as best I could in the old tank water. I wont fertilize until after the blackout and I have changed another 50%. I used up most of my carbon. I will have to go buy some before I clean my 29g.


Good luck, I'm sure that'll sort it!


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

How are things coming along Slick Willy?


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

I guess i missed your post. I will try and get some pics tommorrow. It came back though. Not horribly but now i am also getting the brown furry algae back... I am starting to get tired of this iwagumi. I think EI is much more effective on a tank with stems and not just grasses and swords.


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

Here is a small update. I am still battling it in the 60g. I gave up in the 29 and re did the whole thing tonight. I don't have time to post pics of that I haven't even returned my apistos to their tank yet.

As you can see the algae isn't horrible but its enough to make the tank look very poor and dirty. 


Here is a quick shot of my 29 when its still under construction.


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