# Using Haydite as a Substrate?



## Sugar Cone

Ive got everything on order or on hand to get my aquarium running with 4x T5HO 54w and pressurized CO2, but I just cant catch a break on my substrate. Has anyone had any experience using haydite? It seems to be used in the same way as Turface. It sounds like itll draw nutrients from the water column as well as being totally inert, inorganic, and nonreactive. I can get this locally, but I cant get Turface. Any advice would be extremely appreciated.

http://www.youkoubonsai.com/haydite.htm
"Haydite is produced by expanding and vitrifying selected shale in a rotary kiln at temperatures in excess of 2000°F. This process makes Haydite sterile and environmentally inert. It is a natural, non-toxic, highly absorptive ceramic granule with a generally neutral pH. It is dimensionally stable and will not degrade or compress like other amending products. "

http://www.hpbhaydite.com/haydite/haydite-overview.html
(ESCS is expanded slate, clay, and shale)
"Horticulture

ESCS is environmentally friendly. It is non-toxic, odorless, 100% inert, and completely inorganic. ESCS will not compress, degrade, decompose, or react with agricultural or horticultural chemicals. It acts as an insulator in the soil mixture and protects plants from rapid temperature extremes. ESCS retains a high percentage of its weight in absorbed water and waterborne nutrients, making it an excellent buffer. ESCS is user friendly because it is lightweight, inert, pH adjustable, easy to handle, economical and readily available."


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## Sugar Cone

Nobody knows nothing? My only opportunity to get the haydite is on the weekend ad I would rather not have to wait another week. Even if someone can just tell me itll be safe maybe Ill try it.


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## Nymsley

Your link says that the haydite is made from shale which is generally aquarium safe. But sometimes shale contains gypsum or pyrite that can lower the pH in soft/acidic water according to this article Rocks and Aquaria. Shale doesn't always have those components so I suppose thats what they mean by "selected shale".

Thats my only hesitation about using haydite. Its use in hydroponics seem assuring.

Found only one other person who tried this stuff for tanks but he even sounds inconclusive after his own "tests":
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=94251

Maybe they can give you a small sample to mess with first?


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## Sugar Cone

Thanks, Nymsley. I appreciate the assist. 

I dont know what a small sample would tell me. As long as I dont kill my fish and the grain size is small enough to be good for planting Id be happy to give it a try. Of course, experimenting with a 55 gallon is a pain when its time to swap out that substrate again.

Is there any reason why I cant use regular gravel as long as the grain size is small enough?


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## Nymsley

I was thinking of testing a small amount of haydite in different water samples. Sorry, I couldn't help too much with this substrate.

You could use regular gravel/sand. You would have to supplement the substrate with ferts if you plan to have heavy root feeders. Gravel has no/very little CEC, it wouldn't be capable of holding/providing nutrients on its own.


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## Sugar Cone

Gotcha. Alright. So as a last resort, I can use sand and root tabs. Good to know. If I get pygmy/dwarf cories, will the sand cause them any problems?


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## El Exorcisto

The haydite looks and sounds like a great substrate. If you really want something like Turface, check your local auto parts stores for Oil-Dri or Thrifty-Zorb, or whatever their equivalent is. I use Thrifty-Zorb in a couple of my tanks and it's nice to look at and work with.

As for sand, if you use a silica sand like pool filter sand (best) or play sand (dirty), you dont have any worries with cories. There is also a product available at hardware stores called "Black Diamond" or "Black Beauty" blasting grit. It's shiny black sand, very high in iron, and a joy to scape with. Contrary to the armchair quarterbacks, it too won't bother cories.


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## Sugar Cone

Coooool. I might give it a try! 

Ive heard about that blasting sand (and its damage to cories) but Im trying to get something thats not black. Haydite looks like it might be a bit more natural looking. I wonder what size he carries. Wait, that sounds wrong.


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## El Exorcisto

Also check out any local landscaping/farm supply like Agway or Tractor Supply. The local Agway carries athletic field clay similar to Turface, but only in brown and red. The brown is really nice looking, had I remembered that I would have used it instead of Thrifty-Zorb.


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## Sugar Cone

Right on. Ill see what stores are nearby. The haydite source is only about 50 miles out. But then, I havent even looked for haydite anywhere else yet. 

Sadly, I spent my last $50 on a CO2 cylinder.
Gladly, I have time to look for substrate again. lol

Thanks.


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## Sugar Cone

Alright.. 

I have a guy bringing some haydite by tomorrow (so the sooner the better on the replies here ) for me to look at. He is bringing it unsifted @ $40 for 8 gallons of material. He says that when he sifts it, most of it fits through the 1/4" screen, and all of it fits through the 1/2" screen. So its ranging anywhere from 1/8" to 1/3". I know its likely to settle over time leaving the larger pieces on top..

So the question is, will the grain size be satisfactory?

edit: 
I spoke to another guy just now also.. He will give me 3/16 size grain. Which is better? This guy is also MUCH cheaper than the other guy @ $15 for 40 pounds, but I have to drive an hour to get there and an hour to get back. 

Doing the math, 1/4 = 4/16, so 3/16 would be smaller.

So now the question is, is the 3/16 size preferred over the 4/16 - 8/16 size?


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## Sugar Cone

Alright then.. I suppose Im going with the cheaper option, the 3/16" size.

Uh, thanks?


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## Nymsley

I think you chose a good size, I would have gone with the 3/16" too. It would look better in my opinion. Coarser substrate tends to draw my eye away from the plants/fish. (That being said, I'm using large-ish rocks are accents.) Cheaper is a plus too.

Show us how it looks (dry and wet) when you get the chance, please.


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## Sugar Cone

Will do, and thanks. I probably wont get any till this weekend since its an hour away, but Ill certainly update. As for cheaper, I can only estimate what eight gallons would weigh, but lets say its 15 lbs. Thats a difference of $3/1lb versus 3lb/$1.

I just got a four gallon tank, so Ill get the haydite in there pronto and let you guys see.

As a side note, I wonder if akadama would be a suitable material.


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## marrow

Akadama has been used with some frequency and is likely abetter bet then the haydite. Type akadama vs. aquasoil into google. Amano used to use it before he switched to his own aquasoil. If I had a tank to set up and had access to akadama I would use it especially considering the price. Be aware that akadama varies a great deal, it is said to contain fired clay or to contain fired volcanic soil or who knows what else. Some of it is quite durable and some is too crumbly for a tank. If you can check it out before you pay for it I would go for it or find out what kind it is and look it up online.


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## Sugar Cone

Thats what Im afraid of with the Akadama.. The description ive read says its dried, not fired, but that could be a varietal difference between location/geology or brand name.

Thanks for the info.. Ill see what I can find. Also, though, Im not crazy about the color Ive seen.


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## Sugar Cone

Alright! I went and got my haydite today. Man, the bonsai shop I went to was awesome! Hundreds of trees, some said to be 150 years old. But lets get back on track..

Heres a couple of pics of what I got, and how much I got, what it cost, etc.. These pics are before rinsing it (though its already pretty wet), so I imagine that a lot of the smallest particles will be gone after washing. The pics make it look very red/brown but to me, in person, it looks a little more gray than that.

Each bag contains as much as is in the bucket. I got three bags, each weighing approx 35 lbs. Each bag was $12. 









Grain size (The overexposed shiny thing is a quarter)









Macro of the haydite with the quarter for reference. (BIG FILE!)









Ill update again tomorrow after Ive had a chance to rinse it.


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## Sugar Cone

Ok, so I swapped out substrates, and what do you know.. I only used half of what I bought. I couldve gotten away with using one bag, but hey, I have plenty, so why not do it up right?

After spending a half hour rinsing each bag, I apparently couldve kept rinsing and rinsing.. (Sorry for the bad reflection, but its a beautiful sunny day!)









And only half an hour later, all the brown crud had settled or been filtered leaving only the stupid microbubbles that my faucet insists on creating. 









Ill update once the water is clear and you can see the haydite. Im still waiting on some to dry so I can post that as well once it is.


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## Sugar Cone

Well, I have a casualty list. I lost six Rasboras het. (four dead, two unaccounted for), and one Antentome helena (Assassin Snail).

On another note.. My water is almost crystal clear again. Man, those bubbles really take forever to dissipate. Heating the water helps. Ive got a nice shot of the dry haydite to post when I get home, and with any luck, my water will be even clearer by then and I can get a pic of it in the water.

Be back later.


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## Sugar Cone

And we're back.

Here's the haydite in the tank. Excuse the cloudiness, I swear, its those damn bubbles still. Maybe I need to change my polishing filter. Anyway... And yeah, needs work, but give me a chance! lol Check out that Amazon Sword, I bought it at the LFS, and its got three flower spikes on it, and 10 pups already with nodes where it looks like another 5 can form.










A little closer. Once my water is clear again, Ill get a couple more shots.










And dry. Ubiquitous quarter in the shot.


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## Nymsley

It looks good so far, seems "natural" thought a lot grayer than I would expect from looking at the dry sample.

Hows the particle size working for you? Is it light/heavy?


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## Sugar Cone

The size is fine. No pun intended.. Its good. Its easy to push rooted buncges into it and it seems to hold on pretty well. It is lighter than I expected though. Every now and then Ill find a piece floating or stuck to the filter intake. The filter's output is strong enough to create a depression where its blowing towards. And the fish seem to have no problem uprooting the stray stalk of something, but the bunches seem to stay put really well. I'll know more next week probably. I havent done much 'scaping in in since Ive been concentrating on getting my G4 set up in anticipation of the shrimps arrival in a couple of days.


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## Nymsley

Just wanted to add some information that I got from the haydite reps. If other people are curious about it, they might find it useful. I did specify "planted aquariums" but I guess they equate them with "hydroponics". ::shrugs::



> Haydite is a calcined (ceramic like), closed capillary expanded shale aggregate. Because of the non-interconnected capillary system, Haydite has a very high surface area which is highly beneficial for hydroponics applications.
> 
> Haydite has a surface pH of 6.5 to 7.5. Since it is a ceramic like aggregate, it reflects little on the pH like more soluble media such as clay or an organic medium. The pH of the water and added soluble nutrients will have a greater effect on the overall Ph of the aquatic environment.
> 
> Again, Haydite is a ceramic like material which is non-reactive and will not degrade or "break down" over time. Haydite is reusable. Simply remove and allow drying, or if you want to sterilize the medium; immerse in boiling water or heat to a constant 240 degrees F. Haydite is the "forever" choice for hydroponics applications.
> 
> Our material is marketed specifically for hydroponics applications under other industry and trade names.


The CEC for the bonsai grade is about 5.65 meq/100g. Higher than Flourite but not nearly as high as Turface.

I'm not completely sure about "surface pH".

Sugar Cone, how is this tank doing?


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## Sugar Cone

Nymsley, thanks for the extra info. Its all good news to me as I didnt really have a point of reference fr it.

The tank is doing very well. Ill have to take some snaps tmorrow when the lights are on. My water wisteria has taken off, the vals are running like mad (I know they do this pretty easily), Ive got bacopa or cabomba or something that grwon to over a foot of it floating on the water. My only complaint is the light weight of it.


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## Darkcobra

I became interested in Haydite after reading this thread.

I live close to Sugar Cone; and therefore close to his supplier, Northshore Bonsai. I had some problems reaching them, so in the meantime I contacted the manufacturers of Haydite directly. They were very helpful, and sent me generous free samples of the two versions I believed would be most useful - the Greenhouse Blend and Bonsai Grade.

According to the manufacturer, the Greenhouse Blend is "primarily of 1/4"-1/16" particles sizes with nearly all dust and the very fine particles removed", and looks like:










Looks good to me! But what I received is:










The color is obviously not the same as depicted on their website. Neither is the size, and there's so much fines that I didn't even try to rinse it. I'd lose at least half by doing so through any reasonable mesh.

On to the Bonsai grade, described as "about ½ to 1/4th the size of a pencil eraser". After rinsing and drying, I got this:










The size is correct and there were very few fines. But it still doesn't have the color I expected, either from the manufacturer's pictures or the ones Sugar Cone posted.

One of my issues with common calcined clay substrates is their extreme light weight. I was hoping the Haydite might be heavier, so I did some comparative tests of it versus Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil (which is just repackaged Turface). 1/2 cup of each were immersed in water for an hour, then strained and weighed:

Haydite: 3.4oz
Turface: 5.2oz

However, some of the Haydite was floating, so I figured it hadn't fully taken on water. It took three days for all of it to sink. That would be rather irritating in an aquarium! I waited two extra days just to be sure, then weighed both again:

Haydite: 4.4oz
Turface: 5.2oz

I must say I'm disappointed. Neither color nor density was what I expected. The color is similar to the now-discontinued Soilmaster Select Charcoal and Turface Gray, which has its own appeal; but it's just not what I'm looking for at this time. I may still end up trying Haydite in a tank at some point in the future, and will report back if I do.


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