# Fertilizing?



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

My 20g is almost ready for water and is without Co2 but I will use flourish excel for now. Thw lights I have is 2x24 watts t5ho with 10k and ATI coral plus (from my reef tank, it's mixed with daylight/purple/420-460nm) but will be replace soon with roseate bulb, and this fixture is adjustable in height. I will put as much plants as I can during cycle. My question, can I still use the EI method with this set up? thanks


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

You can certainly use EI. It was created by a professional and proven to work by many people. Besides there is no other method to run a planted tank that you can find clear information about. Stock up on fertilizers and don't hesitate to put them in your tank. Start with the numbers that EI suggests for yous size tank. Plants will love you. It would be wise to start with a light period of 8-10 hours and add CO2 as soon as you can. No need to ease in anything because if the plants are in they are ready to eat and grow. Give them lots of food, light, and CO2 and change water as per EI.

Since it seems you are not using a filter I assure you you don't need to rush to get a big or expensive one. You do not really need one because healthy plants take care of pretty much everything - a planted tank is like having a beautiful refugium - the plants take care of the waste. But you need to at lest provide flow with a powerhead. Water changes will take care of everything that the plants don't use which may lead to algae.

Good luck, keep us updated!


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

niko said:


> You can certainly use EI. It was created by a professional and proven to work by many people. Besides there is no other method to run a planted tank that you can find clear information about. Stock up on fertilizers and don't hesitate to put them in your tank. Start with the numbers that EI suggests for yous size tank. Plants will love you. It would be wise to start with a light period of 8-10 hours and add CO2 as soon as you can. No need to ease in anything because if the plants are in they are ready to eat and grow. Give them lots of food, light, and CO2 and change water as per EI.
> 
> Since it seems you are not using a filter I assure you you don't need to rush to get a big or expensive one. You do not really need one because healthy plants take care of pretty much everything - a planted tank is like having a beautiful refugium - the plants take care of the waste. But you need to at lest provide flow with a powerhead. Water changes will take care of everything that the plants don't use which may lead to algae.
> 
> Good luck, keep us updated!


Thanks for the advice. I'm actually putting a Aquaclear 70 with bio max and to run carbon and purigen. Are saying that I don't need biological filtration in planted tank? I will start order my dry ferts.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes, filtration is secondary to adding fertilizers, CO2, good light, and water changes. Keep up with those four and your plants will do well.

If you were a bit more observant you could notice two things:

1. I preach about filtration like there is no tomorrow. I am against worshipping fertilizers.
2. Scan the forums (APC and TPT) and you will see that filtration is rarely discussed. It is all about fertilizers/CO2/light/water changes.

I drew a bottom line and I posted it in my first post. It is my firm belief that your tank will be hit by algae very soon and very hard and that after a lot of time and effort you will still not find a good way to deal with them if you continue doing what you started with. Planted tanks are not reef tanks in any way so try and see how they make the most sense Start with what everybody is doing. I see that as a learning experience. 

Please know that in the planted tank hobby there are no modern day gurus. The only ones are from the old school or running planted tanks - find the basics of "El Natural" on this forum. Read and do whatever pleases you but try to avoid the a widespread problem - not using common sense. How do you keep a tank clean if you have to add waste (N and P) to it? That is where we all lose it a little bit.

Take the journey.


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

niko said:


> Yes, filtration is secondary to adding fertilizers, CO2, good light, and water changes. Keep up with those four and your plants will do well.
> 
> If you were a bit more observant you could notice two things:
> 
> ...


I appreciate your input on how to tackle planted tank. I do research as much research as I can, I learned that from having a reef tank, it could be costly. I know I will encounter some prolems, but like you said just keep reading and learned the ropes. Although there's a set amount in dosing, I intend to watch how the inhabitants react, plants ans fish and adjust accordingly.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

There is no set amount of dosing. The original EI post is for newbies that have no clue where to start so it gives them the size of the tank and the dosage. But note the name of the approach - "Estmative...". It is about starting way high and reducing to whatever the plants need. 

The majority of fans of EI don't even remember that is how it is supposed to work. EI has become a method to run a planted tank, not just a fertilization approach. It puts you in a mindset that is simplistic - missing the importance of many factors that come into play. That is what most people want - simple and easy. When problems arise the solution is to do more of the same. That is how people end up with tanks lit way much, excess fertilizers and CO2 and unstable systems that are full of fast growing healthy plants. I used to have a tank in which the stem plants grew 14" in two days. It could not handle lack of maintenance. You could call it "EI" but all that tank was is a glass box with everything excessive (and very bad filtration). Where is the "estimative" in that? Where is the common sense? The joy was similar to overdosing with caffeine - a wired tank indeed. That is what most newbies want. Later, if you stay in the hobby, you will want a stable tank. 

And I have the feeling that once you deal with algae for a few months you will know why.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

> I'm actually putting a Aquaclear 70 with bio max and to run carbon and purigen. Are saying that I don't need biological filtration in planted tank?


The plants are a large part of the bio filter.

I would run the Aquaclear with sponge, chemical media if needed (many of my tanks have peat moss in there), purigen, if you want. I keep some floss in there, too. Then I put a mesh bag of bionoodles on top to hold the media down. Sure, bacteria grow there. But they also grow on the sponge and on all the surfaces of the tank. No need for specialized media in a densely planted tank. Except to weight down the sponges and floss.

Many plants do not like very much ammonia. Read the fishless cycle, and near the end I suggest planted tanks can be cycled by adding much less ammonia.

If the plants are thriving you really do not even need to do the fishless cycle. Once the tank is set up, add just enough ammonia to read 1 ppm. If it is gone within 24 hours and there is no NO2, then the plants are taking care of it, or else they brought in enough bacteria on their leaves so the tank is probably cycled.

Here is the fishless cycle:
Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium.

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below.

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the good tips and advice. I'm doing the scape today and get evrything running and will plant it as heavy as I can. The tank is only 17g with footprint of 20g high, so there's not much I can squeeze in there. I will choose fast growers that I would like to keep and not so fast growers and if possible foreground plants as well. I would like to get everything in one order if possible, saves me little money.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

When in doubt go for the package that offers more than you think you need. There will be some die off, some plants just won't make it no matter what the set up. When these are thinned out the 'oversize' package will probably be just right.


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, I'm getting my plants Monday, not many but I can go to LFS and pick up a few to fill up spaces. I'm getting my EI ferts also but I will start half the dose with excel for carbon and adjust. I don't want to go too fast and end up with unwanted algae. Also, the plants I got aren't fast growers.


----------

