# Noooooooooob hardscape...first attempt ever..



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

I love my "Lake Michigan Special" driftwood(really cheap...as in, pried out of an iceberg in January...but just hope the burnt part does not freak out the PH too much!)..and I have a sentimental attachment to the large piece of fossilized wood...but not sure about the overall organization yet. The slate walls are sort of an ode to a trout stream, and I hope to have a "deep forest" look by the time it's done, with lots of moss on the wood, and a sort of "river bank" look either side of the slate walls...
Ideas, comments, suggestions? Sorry bout' the crappy photos, just moved and my better camera is still packed away.


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Bear in mind that im not an expert at all.

I really like the look of the tank, it already has murky look that gives it alot of feeling. I also really like the piece of wood, it shows great potentiel. The half buried slate pieces looks really good too, I hope you can keep them halfburied like that.

If I was you I would focus on the slate and the big piece of wood. It confuses me a bit that you have so many varieties of rock and the petrified wood. The three stones in front of the wood stands out a bit, so does the rock on top of the slate on the left. I think it would looke great with just the wood and the slate.

That is just my opinion, if you feel differently, go with that. It should make YOU happy, not the rest of the world


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## NatalieT (Mar 20, 2007)

The wood points left and so does the rock in the middle. What are they pointing at? Some focal point that isn't there yet? Maybe a big, colorful plant? (It just looks to me like a bunch of fingers pointing at... nothing)

Natalie


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## evercl92 (Aug 14, 2006)

NatalieT said:


> The wood points left and so does the rock in the middle. What are they pointing at? Some focal point that isn't there yet? Maybe a big, colorful plant?


Kinda in agreement. Maybe plans for a nice centerpiece plant? Or maybe just stand the rock piece up, or slightly angled to the right. Otherwise, I think it has a lot of potential. I'm especially liking the terraced slate pieces.

What kind of substrate is that?


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## tfmcder (Feb 22, 2006)

NatalieT said:


> The wood points left and so does the rock in the middle. What are they pointing at? Some focal point that isn't there yet? Maybe a big, colorful plant? (It just looks to me like a bunch of fingers pointing at... nothing)
> 
> Natalie


Agree! I follow the "arrows" to...an intake strainer? It certainly has potential and definitely needs a focal point where it leads you to. I really like the wood and slate look as well. Nice job on gathering your own driftwood. It will add to the personal attachment to the tank and serves as a nice little side story about it when people ask.


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## swub (Apr 17, 2007)

I think it looks neat. The pointing to 1 side reminds me a current flowing in that direction.

nicely done.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

You could switch the rock on the left with the rock in the center, and make that rock that was in the center point to the right.

I disagree with having a bright colorful plant in there! I would cram it full of java fern, anubias, moss, and some cryptocornes and leave it murky looking! I think it looks wonderful as it is, and would be great as a low light Lake Superior-looking trench. What type of fish do you plan to put in there? I would go with some sort of minnow or sunfish to keep the Great Lakes theme. 

Very unique and terrific to see some people don't all go for an Amazonian or Malaysian look! I give you your due props! Keep us up-to-date......I'm very interested to see where this one goes!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

donaldmboyer said:


> You could switch the rock on the left with the rock in the center, and make that rock that was in the center point to the right.
> 
> I disagree with having a bright colorful plant in there! I would cram it full of java fern, anubias, moss, and some cryptocornes and leave it murky looking! I think it looks wonderful as it is, and would be great as a low light Lake Superior-looking trench. What type of fish do you plan to put in there? I would go with some sort of minnow or sunfish to keep the Great Lakes theme.
> 
> Very unique and terrific to see some people don't all go for an Amazonian or Malaysian look! I give you your due props! Keep us up-to-date......I'm very interested to see where this one goes!


Thanks to everyone for your replies..but this last guy sort of nailed where I was going.
The wood, in my mind at least reminded me of some of the large, wind blown White pines that tower on the cliffs of Lake Superior..that you picked that cue up is amazing! I originaly wanted to go with all native flora and fauna, but I fear the native flora will be lacking...my intent was to almost exactly as you mentioned, to go with a "native" theme.
The angle of the wood was not an attempt to point in at anything, as I wanted the wood to be the focal point. It's too large to stand straight up..and besides, i just LIKE the "sweeping" look it has now. Again..the windblown shoreline/dark spruce forest aspect. The slate also was intended for that same aspect, the rocky shores of a far northern lake. I hope to get a good bunch of moss going on the wood, with a heavy low ground cover in front and on the far right " point" and have a "forest" look around and behind the wood. The mid will the the challenge here I think.
I may pull the 3 rocks, and possibly the large petrified wood...I love the petrified wood, but I cant' get it integrated into the layout to my liking yet. I may also try to find a more branch-type piece of wood to integrate into the "driftwood island" and perhaps break up the angular pointing aspect a bit..
Anyway...thanks again!
Oh, btw..the substrate is just plain ol' Lake Michigan littoral zone sand..complete with whatever critters were in residence when I harvested it! Approximately 75 lbs of dry weight sand.(I did let it dry out and then washed it a bit, to minimize die off). I actually had the sand and wood in before ever finding this place...so the idea of a commercial substrate was completly foreign to me! 
I suspect I'll need to inoculate the sand or somehow get some nutrients into it..but the area I gathered it was heavily laden with emergent vegetation, so there must be some level of nutrients! I am both cheap, and fascinated with local "structure"..so would like to use as much hand gathered as I can.
As for fish..I'm torn. I want to use again, natives..so am considering a colony of stickleback, or a school of dace, or perhaps with some killies or central mudminnows(not sure yet..still need to study their habits), sculpins, or rainbow darters. Tank has a heater but it would not be needed for any of the above.
The fish will be added after the plants are established...so the first thing I need to do is decide those!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Ok...I pulled the 3 rocks from the front of the stump, and out went the giant piece of petrified wood.
I moved ALL the slate to the side with the wood, to concentrate on that wall, and just did 3 pieces of granite on the far right "high spot." It's simpler, and will leave more room for the foreground and mid-ground flora.
Any advice on plants? I would like a good growth of moss on the stump, and a large area of heavy growth around it to create the "forest" as well as low growth to give a good area of "fish viewing" room, but really want to avoid the field in front of a wall issue...


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Well, there is a lot of info that we need to know before we can suggest anything. How much lighting do you have? Are planning on using that heater, and what is the temperature range? Do you have CO2 injection? 

I'm assuming that this will be a "low light tank" in which case, I would use java moss for the wood. Narrow leaf java fern tied to some of the granite would look very nice in this tank, I think. For the background, you could plant some vallensaria if you want some height. It might be cool of you to do some quick research and see what plants are endemic to your area....anachris? Could you use native underwater plants from around the Lake?

Just some ideas....but you should provide a tad more info, and literally draw a plan before you start planting. It will help you a ton!

KEEP IT MURKY LOOKING! This setup has a ton of potential!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

I plan on low-medium light at best,but right now it's a pretty solid medium. It's lit with two 40 watt tubes, one GE "plant/aquarium" at I believe about 5000k, and one GE full spectrum, at 6500k. Lumen output is 1900 and 2500 respectively. factoring out the substrate and decorations, It took about 32 gallons to fill it, so I am running just shy of 3 watts per true gallon. Being a 40 long, it's relatively shallow...so light penetration is very good.
The driftwood has been helping with the "patina" of the water, the tannins are definitely having an effect on the color...one I really like! I had run carbon for a few day's to clear it up, but preferred the slight yellow/brown color imparted by the tannins, so took out the carbon and am just running floss in the filters at present. 
I am running the temp at 77 now, and don't presently have CO2..but that's very likely in the cards.
I did want to get SOME green in there, and since I didn't want to jump in with plants untill I cam certain of my goals..I decided to just start by tying java moss to the wood, to get it going. There were a couple of very small java ferns mixed in with the moss, so they are in there too(although they are so small as to not really be noticeable).
I'll have to get going on research for local plants...it's still cold enough here that next to nothing has emerged yet, but that's just a week or so away if the weather holds.
Thanks again for the input..I'll keep this updated as things progress.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Here are some pics from tonight(after the tank cleared up enough to photograph).
I have just one of the two lights on in these, to better get the murky look.
I took a series rotating around from the side to end on, to give an idea of the overall layout.
Also tossed a few close up's of the slate rockwall...It rather looks like some of the photos from the Mars probe!
























































Again..I'll post more as I get more in.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Very nice start with the moss! Trim it down in a few weeks (just enough to shape it). This will be tricky; too much light, and you will lose the effect of it looking like a scene from the Great Lakes. Not enough, and you won't have enough to grow some of your plants. You may want to consider and "overlap" where one light runs for eight hours, the second light overlaps that for six hours, and the last light goes out two hours after that.

Have you thought about using some giant hairgrass for the background/sides of the tank? That would look pretty neat, and would grow fine with your current lighting if you provide CO2.

Keep it minimalistic!! You're off to a great start!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

donaldmboyer said:


> Very nice start with the moss! Trim it down in a few weeks (just enough to shape it). This will be tricky; too much light, and you will lose the effect of it looking like a scene from the Great Lakes. Not enough, and you won't have enough to grow some of your plants. You may want to consider and "overlap" where one light runs for eight hours, the second light overlaps that for six hours, and the last light goes out two hours after that.
> 
> Have you thought about using some giant hairgrass for the background/sides of the tank? That would look pretty neat, and would grow fine with your current lighting if you provide CO2.
> 
> Keep it minimalistic!! You're off to a great start!


Yeah...I likely started out with way too much moss(I see most people use just enough to get it going), but I got all of that for a buck at the LFS here, as they were cleaning out a tank!
I'll trim it up in a few weeks when it's established, and hopefully it will take a more natural pattern then.
As to flora...I do want to leave some sand showing, but also do want a nice "forest" as well as an open but green area in front/left..so I have to do some research in that manner. likely use a mix of local and tropical flora..the only issue I have come across is that one of the folks at the LFS mentioned that local plants tend to want to die off come winter, no matter what you do...so I am a bit torn. I may also add some wood of some kind to the high spot on the left end of the tank...I have access to a beaver dam with enough good stumps and sunken vines to last several lifetimes...just need to get up there and do some poking around.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

the plants die because it turns cold, or because they are growing from a tuber and go into a rest cycle. I think that you would be fine with whatever plants you put in there, and not worry about them dying because they are in a controlled environment with plenty of nutrients and a constant temperature. However, last time I checked, I didn't know everything, so I could be wrong. I just highly doubt it! 

You got an excellent deal with the moss! LUCKY!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks to the miracle that is photoshop...I sort of designed a couple of slightly altered ideas for the flora of the tank digitally just to see what the potential of the design is. I know that many of the plants I used are out of proper size ratio..but this was a quickie, and was more just intended to get a general layout and texture, as opposed to being technically correct. If I decide to plant at or close to this design..I'd of course do the research to get plants of proper size and "texture" to try to match. I may cut back a bit on the planting..but this is just a rough first draft.

Bright light simulated:

















Low(1 lamp, red tone plant light).


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## UG Dude! (Apr 12, 2007)

I think I prefer the fourth... looking good!


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

This looks amazing, especially the Photoshop mock-ups.

I'm not too sure about the left hand side though. Have you tried mirroring the slate on the other side to form the valley. This way it would look awesome IMHO. I just don't think those big rocks fit with the beautiful slate slope on the other side.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

It is looks great with the photoshop!

So much for the Lake Superior look, though. Try a mock up with some true North American plants and see how you like it. Otherwise, whereas you will have an awesome planted tank, you won't have the murky looking Great Lakes effect. Not that it is wrong......but just try a mock up with true coldwater north american plants to see what it might look like.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Yeah, I know..it does loose some of the authenticity. I am finding it difficult to find good sources of info and photos of local aquatic plants. The D.E.Q. put out a PDF file on them..but it's simple black and white drawings, and no size reference. Also...I can't seem to find any kind of low foreground plant locally, so that would be an issue if I go that route. 
I am also to be honest, rather torn..I love the idea of a locally based tank..but at the same time, love the idea of having a bit of the rain forest! 
I'll see what I can come up with, however. I am thinking at the moment, a mix of plants..local when possible, and tropical to fill in the gaps.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

You could do a lot with dwarf hairgrass, diplis diandra, hydocotyle verticillata, red ludwigia, green cabomba......these are too name just a handful! Try searching for "coldwater plants" + "aquariums" and see some of the info that comes up.

I would hate to see you give up so easily on such a unique idea.......but it is ultimately your choice.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

donaldmboyer said:


> You could do a lot with dwarf hairgrass, diplis diandra, hydocotyle verticillata, red ludwigia, green cabomba......these are too name just a handful! Try searching for "coldwater plants" + "aquariums" and see some of the info that comes up.
> 
> I would hate to see you give up so easily on such a unique idea.......but it is ultimately your choice.


Ah...much better. I didn't realize many of those were native!
My may problem right now is impatience..I want to get plants in quick:twitch: 
Nothing is decided yet though, and I'm still very open to the idea.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

TAKE YOUR TIME! Don't rush into anything without giving it some thought and planning it out. You will be much happier with the results, and much richer! Take a week to plan, and buy next week. Trust me, you will like yourself better next week if you plan it out!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Update, finally.
I ended up changing out the slate for some larger rocks. I know it was sort of popular, but it really cut back on the area that could be planted..and more to the point, it was soooo low, that I think it would have been pretty much lost in the growth, even the foreground growth, anyway. Also....I found some REALLY cool rocks at a local quarry....
Anyway, in sticking with the local aspect, I decided to try to use ONLY local, 
"free range" plants.
This early in the year, just finding emerged aquatic plants has proven a challenge, and so far I've only been able to find a handful of species. To get the tanks started, I put in some higher stem plants; Myriophyllum elatinoides(I "think" we call it foxtail), and Elodea canadensis(anarchis..sp?)....those being what I could find so far, as far as stem plants go) around the rocks and logs, and laid in a foreground carpet of dwarf hair grass(found a GREAT source for that in a local lake!), and what appears to be some kind of extraordinarily tiny Val or Sagitaria-like plant...I mean tiny! It has flat, long leaves, and is strung out along runners. It was growing in about 2 feet of water, and the lake is at normal levels..so it's definitely an aquatic. I really hope it takes off, as it's pretty cool looking...in the lake, it was growing in a very large mat.
I also tossed in a lone example of a Potamogeton(exact species, not sure..and it's pretty sickly looking anyway!), and a threesome of some kind of lilly-esque thing..NO clue..but it was growing quite deep...
Note..I will be adding more plants as they come up..I want to add some more Potamogeton of some kind(we have a few types here..but I've not yet collected any more),some Ludwigia, and anything else that catches my eye.
What I seem to be strugling with...is finding a local mid-layer type plant. So far...I have used the rocks to sort of ease from the stems to the low cover plants, but really would like to find something of mid-height. Perhaps when it warms up a bit, I can find more...
Anyway, here are some pics from today, after the planting, and after the water had time to settle a bit.

































Sucky pics of the mystery sag-like plant..:
















Some of the hairgrass...the area I found it, was literally like a carpet!


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

NP-
Nicely done! You managed to create a well-planted tank without losing the feel of The Great Lakes. I have never seen anything like it! It looks like a slice of Lake Superior about 12 feet below the surface! Fantastic!

I want pics of this again in two to three weeks! I think that you will get a TON of hits for this aquascape. Good luck!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks!
I added some more Pont's today, I believe crispus...but cannot be sure. The coloration and overall size is correct, but none of them have the typical curly edged leaves, the leaves are all straight. I cannot find a reference photo that matches them! I may have to move them around a bit, as they are currently my "mid level" plants, but they appear to be going to get rather large....
I also tossed in, then removed, some bladderwart, as I realized it was completely non-anchorable, and would likely spread to cover the surface eventually. Too bad, as it was very cool looking.
The hairgrass and "micro val" is starting to send out runners already, and the stems are shooting to the moon..I will be able to start clipping and re-planting them soon. I have so far, had minimal hair algae issues, so have not put in any fauna yet, other then the "free range" snails that came along. I know some don't like snails..but to be honest, I do, and want to allow anything that want's to hang out in there, to do so(within reason). I have no fish yet...still unsure of what exactly I want to do in that respect. Natives almost certainly, although I may also add a Ctenopoma acutirostre if the water temp range I end up with will support it. That would of course be if I decided to go with large enough natives(sunfish or something), to allow that.
Failing that...I may go small, and go with a mix of sticklebacks, dace(collected some awesome redbellies today..but let em go, as I was still unsure of my intended direction), and mud minnows...just no clue yet what I really want to do fish-wise! 
I posted in another sub forum that my first priority is the well being of the fish, so I will likely have to go native now anyway..but just need to decide what size range/temperment I wish to go with.
Oh...I also found out today that the great lakes have a native glass shrimp, that can at times be collected off of weed beds near Travers City in Grand Traverse Bay...may have to make a run up there JUST to add some of those!
Any suggestions/comments(still looking for that mid-level plant!), appreciated.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Keep it Natural! Anything you buy is going to look artificial!! Best to go with native fish (mud minnows) and shrimp! You will find a midground plant, I assure you! Keep it native!! This is probably the best set up I've seen in forever! Don't give up now......you are so close!!


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