# Upgrading from 30G to 57G - Substrate help!



## sundragon (Dec 13, 2010)

I need some advice from people who've already done this:

I just got back into the hobby last year (I had a lightly planted tank as a kid years ago). Last June I set up a CO2 injected 30 gallon x-high tank that's got decent plant growth (see video below).

I'm moving to 57 gallon (36" x 18" = 4.5 sq ft bottom) and I'm trying to decide if I should use my existing substrate Ecco complete black (about 9 months old) or switch to all new substrate. I've heard great stuff about Azoo and ADA, I've read up about ADA's methodology on building a planted tank and I'm trying to decide how to go forward.

*My goal:* is to grow a carpet of HC or hair grass and Ecco complete particles seem too large to allow it to grow into a carpet. I've tried and it doesn't work that well, the grass grows, but doesn't carpet.

*My plan was to do the following: *3 bags of new Ecco Complete black, adding the existing Ecco complete with mulm (about 1 bag worth), and topping with Flourite black sand. for about 3 inches of substrate. I'm a little weary as sand may settle and then it will be all Ecco Complete.

I've read that people like to use top soil or mineralized soil capping it with hard substrate. I've had good luck growing everything like a weed just using ecco complete, but I'm open to learning something new.

*Here's the important part:* I don't want to cycle the tank again because I'm moving the fish shortly after I set up the new tank. I'm planning on setting up the new canister filter on the old tank for a week to seed it with bacteria. All the plants will go to the new tank as well.

*Should I:*

Go with my plan (above)?
Switch to top soil capped by my exiting Ecco Complete?
Top soil capped by Flourite black sand (finer for HC and hair grass)?
Toss my existing substrate and use Power sand and ADA Amazonia per instructions.
Mix my existing Ecco Complete with http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/ss.htm. This is very inexpensive, and the reviews on their site say it's good stuff.

Would the filter being seeded and the plants be enough or should I definitely move the Ecco Complete along with?


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I would get new. Why start out with old? I leave my tanks set up for a long time. I may change scapes but not substrate. So when I change tanks I always use new substrate. Even if I should have a new tank cycle, what is a few weeks to years of uses in the long run. You can always stuff it with plants and use a seeded filter on it, as you say you are planning to do. Stir up your existing tank so that they bacteria will really get into your new filter.

AND go with ADA Amazonia. There is NOTHING better! To shorten the cycle, change water every other day, dose extra prime on days that you aren't changing water, and stuff with plants! You can use floating plants. My favorite is Najas sp 'Roraima' It still lets light in so that you can begin your foreground plants.


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## NeonFlux (May 15, 2008)

+1 with Tex Gal.


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## sundragon (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback... I asked the question before with no answers. I know people upgrade tanks. I don't want the fish to die in the process. I have a 10 gallon QT tank, that will work for a very short time (1 day), but not longer.

Do you transfer the mulm?



Tex Gal said:


> I would get new. Why start out with old? I leave my tanks set up for a long time. I may change scapes but not substrate. So when I change tanks I always use new substrate. Even if I should have a new tank cycle, what is a few weeks to years of uses in the long run. You can always stuff it with plants and use a seeded filter on it, as you say you are planning to do. Stir up your existing tank so that they bacteria will really get into your new filter.
> 
> AND go with ADA Amazonia. There is NOTHING better! To shorten the cycle, change water every other day, dose extra prime on days that you aren't changing water, and stuff with plants! You can use floating plants. My favorite is Najas sp 'Roraima' It still lets light in so that you can begin your foreground plants.


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## sundragon (Dec 13, 2010)

Quick question about ADA Amazonia - I was given some feedback that Amazonia can have an initial ammonia spike.



Tex Gal said:


> I would get new. Why start out with old? I leave my tanks set up for a long time. I may change scapes but not substrate. So when I change tanks I always use new substrate. Even if I should have a new tank cycle, what is a few weeks to years of uses in the long run. You can always stuff it with plants and use a seeded filter on it, as you say you are planning to do. Stir up your existing tank so that they bacteria will really get into your new filter.
> 
> AND go with ADA Amazonia. There is NOTHING better! To shorten the cycle, change water every other day, dose extra prime on days that you aren't changing water, and stuff with plants! You can use floating plants. My favorite is Najas sp 'Roraima' It still lets light in so that you can begin your foreground plants.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

sundragon said:


> Quick question about ADA Amazonia - I was given some feedback that Amazonia can have an initial ammonia spike.


Yep, that's why you do lots of water changes initially. By the 3rd or 4th week you should be down to a once-per-week water change as normal.


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## sundragon (Dec 13, 2010)

Hmm, forgive me but it seems counter intuitive to use a product that produces a toxin that is the the number one reason fish die in new tanks...

I'm apprehensive because I have 4 large angels (that I'm attached to) that are worth *$40-60* each were I to replace them at the LFS today - I'm a little weary of putting them through ammonia spikes that last 2 weeks straight for fear of spending *$160-240* to replace just them, not including the rest of the fauna in the tank...


Have you used Amazonia and seen this first hand?
How did your fish survive?
Water changes every other day, correct? What percentage?
Any other product that is safer on a new tank?

I use Prime - It is not compatible API's ammonia test kit - You have to wait up to 48 hours for the Prime to evaporate before the test is accurate - I need to get another ammonia test kit that is Prime compatible.



davemonkey said:


> Yep, that's why you do lots of water changes initially. By the 3rd or 4th week you should be down to a once-per-week water change as normal.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes, I've used Amazonia first hand. I did not put any fish/shrimp in the tank until the beginning of the 3rd week (they stayed in another tank, but if you have a large ice chest you can make that a temporary hospital tank with a powerhead and regular water changes).

I did 50-75% water changes every day the first week, then 50% every other day the 2nd week, every 3 days the 3rd week, and then weekly...gradually went to monthly water changes. I never used Prime or tested ammonia because I simply assumed that there was high ammonia and kept flushing the system with water changes. When I finally added livestock, I used the normal water conditioner ("Stress Coat"...which is a dechlorinator/electrolyte additive... is what I've always used. )

The thing about a substrate that releases ammonia is that it feeds the plants. You can use any number of aquarium substrates or plant substrates that will work (Flourite, SMS, Eco-Complete, Turface, natural soil capped with sand/gravel, plain gravel), but none will give you the "optimum" conditions for the plants that Amazonia will give (until after about a year when your tank has accumulated mulm and organics in the substrate). Amazonia has many benefits and only 1 drawback (which is the need for many water changes in the first 3 weeks...after that you are in the clear).


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