# Alternanthera has some problems...



## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

My alternanthera seems to be gowing well except for the problem you see in this picture. Leaves that are a few nodes down (read: not very old), are getting pinholed and ragged. I have tried increasing both NO3 and Traces without success. My dosing follows:

50% WC on Sunday
75G
3.8 WPG
about 60ppm CO2 (probably more)
1/2tsp KNO3 4x week
1/8tsp PO4 4x week
10ml Plantex 4x week
3ml potent Fe 4x week

As far as I can see, at this point all that is really left is a K shortage. Anybody care to chime in?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

There is no K+ shortage, you have no less than 4x the needed amount before you'll run into an issue there.

If the environmental conditions have been like this and you are certain of the CO2 and it has been at this level, you should not have these issues.
I assume the GH is decent?

So trim the leaves off(they will not do the plant any good) and wait for the new growth to come back in.

CO2 measurements have issues, measurinjg with a probe can throw off the measurement when the lights/electrical equipment is powered, turn them off and check.

Also check the CO2 early and later in the day.
My plants in a non CO2 tank grow about 1" per week, you should have fast growth given what you are doing.

Nutrient deficicency can be ruled out except for CO2, GH and the past issues, the new growth looks fine, something perhaps 1-3 weeks ago caused this problem it looks like.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

3rd annual Plant Fest July 8-14th 2005!
[email protected] Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

Tom,

I appreciate your response. I figure I am loading up on plenty of nutrients to make deficiencies nearly impossible, so this problem perplexes me. To answer your questions, I am certain my CO2 is 60ppm+. I have not checked my gH in about 7 months but my last reading was 10dH. I don't use a probe, I use a liquid testing solution and inject CO2 24/7. Growth is fast except for the problems you see. There shouldn't have been any problems in the last few weeks to cause these issues. I also have an issue with my heteranthera zosterifolia melting. I can provide you with a picture if you think the cause might be what is causing my alternanthera problems.


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## BigFoot (Jan 3, 2005)

Just because you got 10 DGH dosent mean you got enough MG in the system. I would check all parameters to be sure.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Could there be something in the tank damaging the plants? I see that most of the holes are between the midrib and the edge with the edges looking relatively undamaged. Also, most of the damage is on the broader part of the leaf with the narrower tips undamaged. Nutrient deficiency would be more evenly distributed on the leaves. On the plant at left of the picture, the older leaves look undamaged.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

BF: Why would you think that I might have Mg deficiencies with a gH of 10?

PK: Could be damage. The tank contains brilliant rasboras, neons, ghost shrimp, relatively few mts, and ramshorn snails. I have never seen anything munching on it though.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

It does not look like snail damage, and the shrimp and your fish don't do damage like that. I thought maybe you had a bristlenose or some such thing. 

Were the damaged leaves on the plants when you planted them, or were they produced after planting?


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## discus (Jul 20, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> BF: Why would you think that I might have Mg deficiencies with a gH of 10?


GH is a function of Ca and Mg it is very possible to have all your hardness coming from Calcium and none from Mg. It has happened in my tank so now I dose Mg.
Hope this answers your question quoted above. 
As for the holes sorry i couldnt be much help but you may want to check the Mg.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

I forgot to mention him, I do have a bristlenose. I have never seen him on these plants though. It is possible that all my gH comes from CA but unlikely I would think.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I thought something similar with the Mg levels in my tank. I too have a tap GH of 10 dGH (44ppm Ca and 17ppm Mg). 

My tank GH was 5.5 (I was using RO water for a while) with Ca levels of 44ppm. According to the PPS spreadsheet I had 0ppm of Mg in my tank with a GH of 5.5. I added 6ppm of Mg and now add Mg solution to the tank every day.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Bob,

I see you're in Largo, Fl. I am in Alachua Fl and have well water with a gh of 11. If you have well water, you have tons of Ca and little Mg - it's the nature of our Florida limestone aquafers. I too have some issues with that plant - it will be growing well and suddently it will start having gnarled new growth. It will happen on some stems and not others. I recently purchased a Ca test kit. According to it, most of my gh comes from the Ca. So I have started dosing Mg. It's too early to tell if it has taken care of the problem yet, but my Ca/Mg ratio was way off.

I'd be curious if you find the reason eventually to know what it turned out to be.


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> I forgot to mention him, I do have a bristlenose. I have never seen him on these plants though.


I bet that's it! they prefer to come out at night more. Looks more like pleco damage than deficiency. It did similar damage to my sword plant until it found out the frozen bloodworms were more tasty.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> Tom,
> 
> I appreciate your response. I figure I am loading up on plenty of nutrients to make deficiencies nearly impossible, so this problem perplexes me. To answer your questions, I am certain my CO2 is 60ppm+. I have not checked my gH in about 7 months but my last reading was 10dH. I don't use a probe, I use a liquid testing solution and inject CO2 24/7. Growth is fast except for the problems you see. There shouldn't have been any problems in the last few weeks to cause these issues. I also have an issue with my heteranthera zosterifolia melting. I can provide you with a picture if you think the cause might be what is causing my alternanthera problems.


It's CO2/NO3 related if the Stargrass is melting(too low).

Some plants can handle more variance there.
These tend not too to do so well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

BigFoot said:


> Just because you got 10 DGH dosent mean you got enough MG in the system. I would check all parameters to be sure.


Okay then, can you tell me what Mg deficenciy looks like?
Does it look like this?
I've had a tough time inducing it several years ago.
By all acounts, it's produce less green and more veining, the most pronounced effect occured on Anubias dark green leaves.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

So what is the consensus? Tom, how can I possibly be low on CO2 or NO3 considering my dosing regimen? I really don't think my bristlenose is munching on them. 

I guess I will try adding a bit of Epsom salt to see if it helps.


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## Sir_BlackhOle (Jan 25, 2004)

Have you tested your co2 levels? How much surface agitation do you have? What diffuser or reactor are you using?


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

I am running a pH of 6.4-6.6 and my kH is 10-11. This should put me in an area where CO2 wuld be plentiful. I use a homeade reactor on the output of my canister. Also I have essentially zero surface agitation.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

I managed to find a water report from 2001. It lists values as follows:

Alkalinity 207 ppm
Total Hardness 217 ppm
Calcium 77.3 ppm
Magnesium 4.86 ppm

I would think this report, though it is a few years old, is probably pretty close to current values.

As you can see, my Mg is very low. I am thinking that I may have a Mg shortage. I have noticed quite a few gnarled leaf tips on the alternanthera lately. Bert perhaps you are right about a Mg deficiency. I am on city water though, not a well. 

I do have Epsom Salts on hand. How much and how often should I add to a 75G tank with 4WPG and 50% WC weekly? I am thinking 1 tsp on Sunday should do it.

BTW: The pinholing seems to be becoming more pronounced in recent days.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Bob,

FWIW, as an example, in my 50 with a little over 2wpg, I am adding 1/2tsp MgSO4.7H2O during my weekly 50% water changes. It's been about 3 weeks since I started this routine and new growth looks normal so far - no gnarly leaves. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

Bert,

I started dosing 1 tsp of MgSO4. I'll see how it goes. Tomorrow I am going to call the water department and see about getting a recent water report.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

For anyone who is following this thread...
I nabbed this picture from a post a few threads up. My alternanthera looks exactly like this with the additional pinholing. Also I am seeing the same growth tip problems in my rotala 'green' which was growing very well a few weeks ago.

This looks way too much like a Ca deficiency, not Mg deficiency. I called the water dept and the was told I could go pick up a report from last yeat but for some reason they stopped including the Ca and Mg levels. The guy told me I could call "the lab" and they could help me out. I still have to follow up on this.

I am going to start dosing Kent Turbo Calcium and skip the Mg dose. Any comments?


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

and you have ammania gracilis in the same tank and it does not stunt? My Ammania stunts/twists more than other plants.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

That's exactly what mine looks like. And in my case, at least, I know there is no shortage of Ca.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

shalu said:


> and you have ammania gracilis in the same tank and it does not stunt? My Ammania stunts/twists more than other plants.


Not anymore. Unfortunately, I had to toss it a few weeks ago because it stunted up badly.


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

ah. In my case, I am sure I have plenty of Ca. I am increasing NO3 dosing to see if that helps. So far more NO3 has improved stunting of eusteralis stallata.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

I have exactly the same problems (curling, leaf holes) with the alternatheras and curling on nasaea at the moment. Plus I have major interveinal chlorosis on the anubias. I have very low to almost 0 Mg (Ca is 80 ppm) so I add 5 ppm Mg every 3 days (maybe I add to much and block Ca?). This curling thing is still a mystery. I add everything in the tank in excess and do major wc before that twice a week plus I do daily dosings so there is no chance of deficiency including CO2. My NO3 is high ranging from 28 to 21 ppm measured with a colorimeter. Apart of this the tank is in top condition with no algae at all and fast growth.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

Freemann, your observations are interesting. You appear to be adding everything in excess as I have. I am hoping the Ca will help my situation, but I am somewhat doubtful. I am growing anubias, glosso, monoselenium, and elatine triandra very well but this alternanthera problem plagues me.


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## Josef (May 30, 2005)

I am having the same problems with my Alternanthera.
My ferts condition is very similar to yours and I use ferts protocol according to the Plantbrain's indication.

I am experiencing good result adding a little amount of Boron (using H3BO3), less than one rise grain per 66 gal after weekly 50% water change. The boron deficiency has the same symptom of Ca one.

This evening I'll try to post a picture to show my result.

In particular, in my case, only few young leaves have curling and more than 50% of A. looks good.

Be very careful with boron that is toxic for fishes and plants.

Regards
Giuseppe


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

Josef, I would love to see your results. Please post ASAP.


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## Josef (May 30, 2005)

Here a picture of my A.
Upper side the new leaves born after one week of Boron suppl (one dose one week ago).
Lower side the damaged leaves (curling, etc) before the treatment.

Sorry for poor picture quality, if need, I'll try to do better.

Regards
Giuseppe


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

That's very interesting. I actually ended up throwing this plant out because I kept having this issue.

But I use CSM+B. The B is Boron. Maybe there isn't enough in the mix?


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## Josef (May 30, 2005)

Laith said:


> That's very interesting. I actually ended up throwing this plant out because I kept having this issue.
> 
> But I use CSM+B. The B is Boron. Maybe there isn't enough in the mix?


Maybe.
This evening, at home, I will post the complete list of macro and micro concentration that I use, including B supplement, in order to make a comparison with your situation.

I use a micro-elements mix available on Italian market quite similar to CSM+B and I suppose that the B is enough for all other plants because all plants look O.K.
I recognize that only some A., non all in my case, for a mysterious reason need B overdosing.

Regards
Giuseppe


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## Josef (May 30, 2005)

Josef said:


> Maybe.
> This evening, at home, I will post the complete list of macro and micro concentration that I use, including B supplement, in order to make a comparison with your situation.
> 
> I use a micro-elements mix available on Italian market quite similar to CSM+B and I suppose that the B is enough for all other plants because all plants look O.K.
> ...


My water after weekly 50% W.C. with single fert dosage per week:

250L (=66gal); 24°C; 8dkH; 10dGH; 6.9pH; 25000lux; 360uS; moderate fish load.

Macro	ppm
K	17.3
NO3	12.3
PO4	1.4
SO4	11.0

Micro	ppm
B	0.012
Co	0.000
Cu	0.015
Fe	0.400
Mg	0.090
Mn	0.040
Mo	0.001
Zn	0.015

Sometime I dose ferts twice per week.

Remark: H3BO3 includes 18% of Boron (B)

Regards
Giuseppe


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Ok here are some photos of the plants with problems.
I can assure you that all are in excess (I am using professional colorimeter for Fe NO3 PO4 plus a turbidometer for K). I have added Boron myself in addition to the boron included in Flourish which I add as-well. Still alternathera "melts" away. By the way before I started the excess regime the alternathera was 90% ok. All the other plants are ok but alternatheras (3 species) some newly introduced long leave stelata and the aromatica. Could it be some toxicity thing?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

There may be multiple issues we're seeing here with the Alternathera. My problems look like the pic that Overfloater posted. The pics that Freeman posts here are not the same, imo. Maybe you should back off on some of the excesses? It's tough to establish a cause/effect when too many things change too quickly. The proper way to do this kind of testing is under controlled conditions which very few of us are willing to do with their prized tanks.


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*same problem*

Im having the same problem on the leaves of my ammania g. They are getting gnarly, developing holes and falling off. I am dosing flourish 10ml 3x a week. 2ppm phosphate 3x week, 8ppm kno3 3x a week, 3 grams MAg Sulfate, 3 grams cacl2, 20ppm K2so4 all weekly, and flourish excel daily. I keep over 30ppm of co2 with over 3.5wpg of PC light in Eco complete substrate. This is kind of bafling me. My temp is 75-78 but it did shoot up to 80 twice this week. Any ideas??


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Good morning,

have you managed to solve this problem?
It would help a lot if you could tell about what the situation is right now, and what you have done since the problem occured  

Thanks


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

I never did figure this problem out. I ended up removing the plant unfortunately.


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

My alternanthera finally looks much better after adding a lot of epsom salt: 2 Tablespoons after each 60% water change in 100 gallon.


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