# setting up a 10 gallon



## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

hey there... so i decided to stop lurking:

After reading up a little on planted aquariums early in the morning, I was a little hasty and bought a few plants on aquariumplants.com

I have a 10 gallon with seachem flourite substrate and a HOB filter...

I recently ordered an AH 1x36 watt Bright Kit, and have one of those Hagen CO2 ladders.

Maybe it was a bad move for a newbie who hitherto thought aquatic plants could be grown by just throwing it into the tank as is, but an impulse buy is exactly what it is...an impulse

i got some riccia, java moss, hemianthus micranthemoides, glossostigma, pennywort and alternanthera reineckii.

Granted that I know a little something about water chemistry and have a 40 gallon discus tank, is my set up gonna last or is this a disaster in the making?

I've read up on how to plant the tank and should have enough to plant pretty heavily, but all i'm gonna do is set everything up and add water. I'm a bit iffy on the CO2 injection and fertilization. Should these be introduced from the get-go? Is fertilization with Seachem Flourish enough for this tank?

looking forward to some feedback, bitternut.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Hey Welcome to the Unlurked side of the forum! 

Looks like you got your lighting and plants setup. I'm glad you went with the 36 watt kit, you'll be delighted and ppleased when you install it, and your plants respond in the positive.

Those plants and basically any other will last in those lighting conditions. Flourish Excel for CO2 could be used, or you can run the hagen unit, which is good also. Maybe a combo of both for best results...

Flourish won't be enough for fertilzers, you'll need Nitrogen, Potassium and Phosphates too. There's a couple of stickies in the fertilization section that direct you to how to dose, and where to get some of these ferts. Gregwatson.com is basically where I'm telling you where to get them..

Add ferts, co2, and excel from the get go to avoid algae problems. With a 36 watt kit over a 10, you're pumping a lot of light and keeping up ferts is Very necessary or all sorts of algae will occur. I have a 36 watt over my 10 right now and had an algae outbreak because my CO2 levels were low, and I didn't add enough ferts.

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

thanks for replying!
I read your EI sticky in the fertilization section and it seems like more work than I anticipated. Will the 50% water change in the very beginning effect the cycling of the tank? Also, when would it be OK to add fish to the tank, do I just test for nitrates? Iit seems like that would be useless because of the KNO3 nitrogen source.

Would you recommend buying a pound of Greg Watson KNO3 and KH2PO4 and Flourish Excel to cover the essential macro and micro nutrients? Also, do you know if there is a difference between Greg Watson fertilizers and other dry ferts? Because i remember seeing some random powders at my LFS.

Lastly, how does the EI regimen differ from PPS, I had a hard time understanding that one. Does EI also require phosphate testing? I'd rather just dump it in and change the water once a week.

thanks!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You should get the chemicals you mentioned from Greg's site but if i were you i would buy CSM+B as well for your micros. It is soooo much cheaper in the long run then buying countless bottles of liquid micros. Also you might want to get some potassium sulfate for the sulfur that your plants need. If your LFS has chemicals that have all the proper elements in them then you can get the ferts from there, but Greg's stuff really is the cheapest around.

As for the 50% WC it won't affect the cycling of your tank b/c planted tanks don't cycle. The bacteria doesn't break down the wastes all the way through the nitrogen cycle because the plants take up the nitrogen before it completes the trip. So basically your tank is stuck in a perpetual half-way-cycled state where the nitrogenous wastes are present but the end product is not (like it is in fish only tanks). Bottom line is it should be fine to change some of the water.

Not totally sure about the diff. between EI and PPS. For me i do exactly what you suggested, add ferts and WC once a week. This method works well since you know your plants are getting enough food b/c you can overdose a little, but you change the water at the end of the week so the nutrients don't build up and cause problems.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Excel would be for CO2 supplementation.

Plantex CSM + B for trace micro elements
The other chemicals for macro elements.

I would recommend what Zapins said, and what you have concluded.

Based on my limited knowledge of PPS, PPS is measuring out the exact fert needs for one's tank in the beginning by testing and measuring the uptake rates of the plants. For example, I dose 1 tsp of Nitrogen compound, and the next day I test and I see that All the nitrogen is consumed according to my test kit. I add more to the dosage until there seems to be more nitrogen addition than I need. Once one establishes how much the plants take of each chemical, it then becomese routine to add X amount of a chemical to meet the plant's uptake rate from the water.

EI is overloading the take with nutrients and doing the 50% waterchange to reset the system. No testing, no measurng specific uptake rates. Idea is to have more nutrients then necessary, and reseting with a waterchange at the end of the week to start over. 

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

So should i wait a few weeks before I add any fish or once i get my fert/lighting/co2 schedule down?

Also, last summer i tried to start up a planted tank in the very same 10 gallon tank with the flourite. Because of insufficient lighting, all the plants died and was smothered by green hair algae and Blue green algae. I went to school during the year and the tank was cleared of all debris but was left stagnant for a few months. All algae died. I rinsed the substrate a couple times and left it to dry. Do you think it's still good to use?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

The flourite will be good to use without any further problems given that you tend to the fert and CO2 conditions recommended above.

You can add fish immediately once you have your plants in there. I personally like to give the plants a chance to root and get settled in the tank before adding the fish. Fish tend to make it hard to rescape, and sometimes even pull up a plant before it gets the chance to root. But in terms of cycling and bacteria, the plants should have enough bacteria and will do the bio filtration of the waste to minimize the cycle. It won't hurt to wait a few days before adding fish, but it's not necessary. 

Enjoy the setup processes, take it slow with fish, plants and everything else. Good luck 

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

I am going to use a whisper HOB for a 20 gallon for filtration. Is this good enough for my setup? Also, is there any reason i should/shouldn't use carbon in the filter cartridge? I can't afford a canister at this point in time.

Also, my plants may arrive before i get Bright Kit, in which case it may go a few days with a 15watt Powerglo flourescent light. Do you think my plants can last a few days (maybe even a week) before I get proper lighting? If so, should I still fertilize and introduce CO2 before I add the 36 watts?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

The HOB will be fine. Keep the water level high to avoid surface aggitation that outgases whatever CO2 you decided to inject DIY. If you use Excel for CO2 then don't worry about degases Excel since it's not a gas form of carbon.

No carbon in the filter because carbon will suck out the nutrients that plants need to grow. You can use carbon for the first week of start up to clear any unwanted particles, but after that it's better to take it out.

The plants will do okay, until your new light comes. I would add CO2 but no ferts. Extra CO2 doesn't hurt, but extra ferts might let algae get the upper hand before the plants get full established. Reasoning being, the plants under low light won't be using or needing a full nutrient load since their hunger drive isn't being driven by 15w of light. Algae likes all conditions and will take those excess ferts, and thrive. Extra CO2 will help prevent algae in this case and in most cases. 

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

My plants arrived today, and so far, it is a mess. I had not expected the glossostigma to be so hard to plant, and i bought WAY too many bunches of it and don't know what to do with the rest. I tied some riccia and java moss to my drift wood, only to remember that i forgot to soak my driftwood, so its just floating upside down with the plants hanging upside down. 

As for my extra glosso, would it be a good idea to try planting it emmersed for the meantime, and if so, how do i go about doing that?


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## finfollower (May 27, 2004)

you could sell the extra glosso on the trade forum or on aquabid. ...or give it to me for free


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I always find myself refering to this link in our Library Section when planting glosso: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...1-aquascaping-journal-series-foregrounds.html. I bet the same process would go for emersed setups.

You can try it that way, or like Finfollower said, give it to him, or try APC's for Sale section to see if anyone needs/wants Glosso.

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

hmm, a little too late now. I kinda left the glosso lying around in its packaging and most of died. A question about my glosso though, how large are the leaflets usually? My glosso that i got from aquariumplants.com were tiny, most leaves were smaller than half a centimeter and all the plants were long, thin, and spindly making it really hard to plant. The two leaves at the nodes were very long, to the point i doubted whether it was glosso at all. Perhaps it wasn't grown with enough lighting?

Anyhow, my driftwood has finally sunk and i retied the riccia and java moss, both of which were a total pain.

I'm starting to think about some fauna for the tank now. Considering some white clouds or harlequin rasbora...or maybe both. How many fish can i keep in a 10 gallon? Also, are algae eating fish and shrimp necessary? I can't find any at my local LFS, and am not feeling the 20 dollar shipping cost (i live in Jersey) for a few fish and shrimp unless it's recommended.


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## finfollower (May 27, 2004)

For the fauna, I was told that I could fit in 6-10 tetras and 2 otos. So I'm guessing it'd probably be around the same for your tank. White clouds and rasboras have a slightly smaller adult size than rummynose and black neon tetras(the ones I'm considering getting this weekend), so maybe you can stick 1 or 2 more in. Algae eating fish and shrimp aren't necessary, but it helps keep the tank cleaner. Shrimp are also fun to watch


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## kweeheng (Jun 5, 2006)

John N. said:


> Hey Welcome to the Unlurked side of the forum!
> 
> Those plants and basically any other will last in those lighting conditions. Flourish Excel for CO2 could be used, or you can run the hagen unit, which is good also. Maybe a combo of both for best results...
> 
> ...


Dear sir John, 
Whats the meaning of Flourish Excel and hagen unit ? BTw, for fertelizer i only add those tablet forms of fertiliser. And i only have a normal Soil from "AquaSoil" Malaya type. Anyone heard of it ? And i put in straight as my gravel. i didnt mix with any other fertiliser. Is this ok? I m also doing a 15 gallon tank. Only growing glosso as lawn and mosson wood.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

So it's been 5 days since I've planted my aquarium. I've been dosing with Greg Watson ferts and things are going alright. There hasn't been much noticeable growth, but all the plants pearl during the 11-hour photoperiod. I've also noticed some thin green strands of algae growing here and there.

To sum up my set-up:

10 gallon tank
HOB whisper filter
flourite substrate
Hagen CO2 unit
AH Supply 36 watt light
Greg watson ferts: 1/8 tsp. KNO3 and 1/32 tsp. H2PO4 every other day, 1/32 tsp. CSM-B, 50% weekly water change

plants: glosso, ludwigia arcuata, pennywort, baby tears, riccia and java moss on driftwood

I was just wondering if there was anything I was missing or can do to get more robust growth. 

Water levels:
nitrates 10 ppm
pH 7
phosphates 5 ppm
KH 1 degree, or 17.9 ppm
GH 7 degrees, or 125 ppm

I have 4 white clouds, 5 harlequin rasbora, and 3 otos in my discus tank that I plan on moving into this tank after the plants situate themselves.

Any suggestions?


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## deeplove (Apr 21, 2006)

bitternut said:


> I was just wondering if there was anything I was missing or can do to get more robust growth.


Patience Spud, patience.



When I started out my 10G tanks I was frustrated since I didn't see much growth. The only growth I noticed was the lovely and beautiful algae. But then again I'm using 65w over them 10s. Once I got my ferts from Greg Watson, dosing Excel, dosing Flourish and Flourish Iron...

BOOM!!! ainkille

My plants took off from there. 1 whole month. My Riccia would pearl in no time. Glosso was spreading and invading all the other plants, Wisteria... I have a carpet of it. J.Moss and J.Ferns are actually growing at a good rate and L. Repens well, nice red in the bottom of the leaves and the top portions are almost pink.

Just stick to the dosing and give it time. DOn't mess around too much with your tank and just leave it for a bit. You'll see results. Good luck Spud, I bet you'll be happy once you see them results.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

it's almost been a week, and I have very thin thread-like algae flowing from many of my plants. Is it normal to have algae so early in the set up? My phosphate levels are at 5 ppm and i'm not sure whether i should dose lower or higher ferts to out compete the algae. Or perhaps i should just remove the algae and sit and wait.


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## finfollower (May 27, 2004)

I think your phosphates are a tad bit high. I dose about 2.5-3ppm phosphates everytime i add ferts in my 10 gallon. And also, maybe plant heavier? Could you post pics of the tank? I'm eager to see your new tank


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

A couple of points. Your kh of 1 needs to go a little higher for CO2 so you don't get pH crashes. You do this by adding baking soda - do a search here to see how much to raise it to about a kh of 3. 

With your pH of 7 and kh of 1, you have virtually no CO2 in there. The hagen is a diy system, and you need to be sure to stay on top of the reaction mixture to be sure it's producing. But you need to get the CO2 cranking. You have a good amount of lighting there, and without CO2 you're asking for trouble. 

Take your PO4 down a little to around 2-3, if your NO3 is around 10.

But the 2 most important, get the CO2 up, and get your kh a little higher to stabilize the pH once the CO2 starts cranking.

HTH.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

my pH is 6.6 or so, and I have yet to correct the KH. Is there a way I can calculate the CO2 from the buffering capacity and pH, or did you just make an estimate? I'm not exactly sure how I can increase my CO2 output. I just used the packages that came with the Hagen unit. Would a 2 L DIY unit be any better?

Also, my tap water phosphate level is about .5 ppm, so my high phosphate levels are from my ferts. Should i do more water changes or decrease the fertilizing? thanks


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Check out here to give you an idea between kh/pH/CO2. This relationship is not always accurate, btw.

I'm not familiar with the Hagen unit compared to a 2L jug.

Regarding the PO4's, next water change add less PO4 to bring it into the 2-3 range.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

bitternut said:


> I'm not exactly sure how I can increase my CO2 output. I just used the packages that came with the Hagen unit. Would a 2 L DIY unit be any better?


Using a larger bottle will extend the CO2 production and slightly inrease bubble production. However the best way to increase DIY CO2 bubbles is to take two (2) liter bottles, connect them with a T-Valve ($2 for the metal ones at Petco/petsmart), and have one line going toward the ladder. Double the production.

Oh and it's sometimes better to use other yeast than the packets that come with the hagen unit since those packets can be expired. Check out this for making your own. 

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

Alright, I just got back from a whole day out of the house, and found my fishtank a complete mess.

I dosed 1/8 KNO3 and a little less than 1/32 tsp of phosphates. The tank was completely smothered by brownish thin threads, and i have green algae on the tank wall on the back. The threads are especially abundant on the pearl grass and glosso. Also, some pearl grass leaves are covered with a brown substance that can be wiped off. Ludwigia arcuata leaves which were either red or green seem brownish and discolored. To say the least, it looks very unflattering, and i'm not sure what i could have done wrong. But i was expecting it.

Ph 6
KH 3-4
nitrates 10
phosphates 5

My KH used to be 0, but I added a dash or so of baking soda to raise the KH. However, my pH dropped to 6.0, i guess because of my CO2.


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## deeplove (Apr 21, 2006)

One thing I'm going to recommend, and this is my experience and also some help from Greg, get yourself about 2 or 3 Gatorade containers. I have 3 of them hooked going into one smaller Gatorade bottle. John said 2 connected with a "T" connector. I had it like that and I felt that it wasn't enough. You can try it and if it works for you then good. In my setup, I felt that 2 wasn't enough and that I would probably have a better and even flow of CO2 with 3 bottles. 

Anywho...

I mixed 2 cups, 1 tsp & 1/2 tsp of baking soda. I have 1 ladder on one 10G and 1 glass diffuser (that I recently changed from a ladder) on the other. The glass diffuser was going nuts and I got good growth. Actually, good growth on both tanks. 

One thing I noticed and from what others have gone through is that if you can pump enough CO2 without affecting the fish, then hell.... GO for it. The more CO2 the better. And you know what... My tanks are fine. I have Glowlights, Flame Tetras, SAE, MTS, Ottos and other snails. None of them go up for air and they eat fine, show great color and they love the plants.

I dose Excel, FLourish, Flourish Iron and Gregs Ferts.

And I'm ALGAE FREE.... Can I get an AMEN?!?!


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

you say to inject more co2, but my pH is 6 and my kH is 3-4, isn't that too much CO2? Would that get rid of the algae?

I'm just wondering what I can do to get rid of the algae. Would increasing or decreasing the fertilizer dosing help?


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

For my Hagen Nutrafin ladder, I tilt it to trap the CO2. If I could get a good looking clear cup thing that I could put upside down to permanently trap the bubbles, I would. I mean, why waste the CO2? My goal is to dissolve 100% of the CO2. Why let it go to the surface? 

I know that Seachem Excel somehow gets rid of algae. Check with others on this website, but I believe CO2 may work the same way. Make sure the plants have EVERYTHING they need to grow, and they will SUCK UP all the stuff that the algae needs to grow. If there is one deficiency that stunts the growth of the plants, the algae will come along and eat up all the rest of the good stuff in the water. 

I hope this is helpful to you. This is how I understand it. 

:yo:

Oh yes, :amen: BROTHER DEEPLOVE - algae free!


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

So it's been about 5 months since i started up my tank, and unfortunately things are not going as well i hoped. I had a week of two of good growth but the algae has been growing from day 1 it seems. I'm dosing macros and micros and am not sure what is going wrong. 

here are my parameters:
2-3 KH
pH 6.4
nitrates 20
phosphates 5

I just did a water change seeing that my nitrates and phosphates were kinda high, but the problems were still present when they were lower. It's hard to keep my water levels consistent in a 10 gallon tank.

I've noticed small patches of blue green algae on my glossostigma, multiple clumbs of greyish staghorn algae growing from the substrate and in my baby tears bush, and there are 1-2 inch green threadlike strands hanging from all my ludwigia plants that are in very poor shape. All the lower leads have died off, and the remaining leaves are patchy, i'm not sure if it's brown algae or just dead patches. My baby tears was growing well for a while but after i thinned it out, the leaves have been growing in very small, and some clumps just melt away completely. There seems to be a lot of dead leaf detritus floating about, and getting tangled up in the thread/hair algae? hanging off of the plants. 

please help me.


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

bitternut, one important piece of information we don't have is how much lighting you have, and how long you're using it in a day. Almost every algae can effectively be combatted with a 3 day blackout, followed by a reduction of your photoperiod. I had a photoperiod of 12 hours when I first started, and I had breakouts of algae every now and then. Now with my lights on for 10 hours, I haven't seen any algae in my tanks for a while.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

i have a 36 watt ah supply hood that is on for 10 hours. I used to have it on for 12 but thought i would shorten the photo period but it didn't help much.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

the state of my aquarium is slowly going to Hell. Blue green algae is creeping along my glosso and riccia, there is staghorn algae growing everywhere, and all my ludwigia that hasn't rotted away is covered in hairy green algae about 2 cm in length. I dose 1/8 nitrates and 1/32 phosphates and micronutrients every other day. I have my ah supply 36 watt for 10 hours. what am i doing wrong? I do water changes once a week.

am i dosing too much or too little? would dosing seachem flourish or excel help my plants regain a foothold? please help


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

You don't say whether you did a three-day blackout or not. That blackout will wipe out most of the algae you have and will help your plants get a foothold in the tank. Also, how big of a water change do you do? I believe 50% is what's needed to "reset" the nutrient levels via the EI fertilizing method.

That said though, it still sounds to me like ten hours of 36W light on a ten gallon tank is too much light exposure. I'm running 28 watts on my ten gallon for 10 hours, and I get no algae whatsoever.


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## nightwing (Jul 18, 2006)

You could raise KH a bit higher. Mine is up at 6.5 or so.

PO4 looks quite high to me. I try to target 0.5ppm. Some say that PO4 is the best algae-limiting-factor. So I think your best bet is to cut this way back when dosing.

Nitrate also looks high, I target 10ppm.

I don't like those goofy CO2 ladders. By far the most efficient way to disolve a gas into a liquid is with vigorous churning (though not at the water surface, that will make it all evaporate again). Perhaps try putting the CO2 output tube directly under the filter intake tube. The bubbles will then get churned up by the impeller. As long as there's no splashing of the water back into the tank, it should work. An even better alternative is to make a powerhead reactor. There are several web sites detailing how to make these, here's one: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/diy_reactor.htm
Probably CO2 is not the issue though, so I don't know how far you want to go with that...

It might pay to go ahead and do that 3-4 day blackout to wipe out the algae and then sort of start over, dosing less PO4 and nitrate.

Keep us posted, I'm rooting for you. Don't let those lower life-forms keep you down.

PS. Another algae controlling technique that many people use is have a break in the photoperiod every day. Perhaps try lights on 5 hours, off 2 hours, on 5 hours, off 12 hours. They say that algae takes longer to start photosynthesizing than plants do, so the algae will have less productive time if the light cycle is interruped in the middle of the day.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your algal woes. Hang in there, you CAN defeat this. Here are some suggestions. 

Manually remove as much as possible. Do a major water change with a good gravel vac at the same time. If you have a way to test for your nitrates and phosphates do so, that will give you a ballpark figure of where you are. 

I have the same light set up on a 10 gal, 10 hr photoperiod, with pressurized CO2. I keep my nitrates around 10-20, my phosphates around 2-4ppm - I don't have algae. FWIW, here's what I dose: 10ppm of NO3 at water change, another 5ppm mid week. 2ppm of PO4 at water change, another 1+ppm midweek. 1/16 tsp of potassium at water change. I add 1ml of Flourish the 5 days I don't dose macros and 1/2ml of iron at the same time.

Get a routine going, and stick to it. With diy CO2 you can't get the stability you do with pressurized, that might be your biggest hurdle to overcome. Measure your pH from the tank, then let it sit out for 24 hours. You want there to be about 1.0pH unit higher after it sits out for the 24 hours. That will get you about 30ppm. Your kh of 2-3 is fine for CO2. 

A blackout will get rid of bga and will knock down a lot of other algae. But algae needs a lot less than plants to grow, you can't starve it. I'm not a fan of a mid day black out. You turn off the plants just when they're cranking. IMO, that doesn't do much for algae control.

Good luck. HTH.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I have the same light over a 10 with pressurized. I dose the same. Algae when it was on 10 hrs, reduced it to 8 hours, and algae has back down. 

So Reduce photoperiod to 8 Hours.

-John N.


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## bitternut (May 27, 2006)

well, i think the worst has passed. but that is only because every plant in my tank is either dead or at the threshold. I tried to keep dosing ferts regularly, but can't say i was very consistent because it didn't seem to help any, and my phosphates levels got too high very quickly. i only have glosso left, and bits of pearl grass stuck to the filter, everything else has been smothered by algae or just melted away. The question that i have is whether i need any additional fertilizers in addition to KNO3, phosphates, and CSM micronutrients. i used a hagen ladder for co2, and it basically useless. could i replace it entirely with flourish excel?


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

*Frustration*

I am sorry to hear that this is happening with your aquarium plants and tank. That can be extremely frustrating.

I would highly recommend using the Seachem Daily Dosage Schedule and dosing the recommended amounts each and every day and actually printing out your daily dosage schedule.

Consistency is the key. Reread any recommendations on the amount of light that you have and try them again. It is very helpful to read on this forum the cause of algae. If I have it down correctly, it is when the plants are limited by either carbon or some other nutrient (probably carbon - you may not have been supplying enough if you have a very high light level tank); and there are plenty of other nutrients for the algae to thrive on. It is a competition issue.

I would purchase and start out with each and every product listed on the Seachem Daily Dosage Schedule and after you have built up some confidence with this method, if you want to - learn and try others.

Just recommending what has worked for me in the past. 
Seachem = reliable and predictable. Made for a very happy Jim.
Happy Plants = Happy Fishies. Good Luck.

I will try to attach my Seachem Daily Dosage Schedule adapted for my 10 Gallon Tank.


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