# Copper poisoning



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I was wondering whether excess copper in the water column will cause problems with rotalla species, wachilli/rotundifolia in particular. What are copper poisoning symptoms?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Hmm, I'm not sure what the symptoms are. But my initial reaction finds that you most likely won't have high detrimental Cu levels to begin with unless your adding it directing into your tank. Any idea where your Cu level lies at the moment?

-John N.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Not a clue, but there is a sign in one of the buildings next to my tank that warns people "This water has high copper levels, but the levels are not toxic to humans." I mean it all makes sense, my shrimp are dying, some of the sensitive plants are dying, sagitteria, ludwigia, wachilli and others still are showing iron deficiency symptoms. 

I did a bit of research on Cu symptoms, and one thing that high copper does is limit the uptake of iron, so iron deficiency symptoms show up. 

Are there any resins i can use to reduce the copper in the water? Or some type of filtration device that removes copper/other contaminants from the water without being constantly attached to a faucet? I have my tanks set up in the admissions building and having the water tied up is something that probably wont fly well with the head panchos.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

There is a product called Copasorbe or somethign like that. Check with Big Al's or some other mail order supply. Cu is much more dangerous in salt systems than in FW, IIRM so maybe look through the salt sections where they have carbon and Phosban, etc.

Try searching Google, et al. for any info on Cu toxicity in rice plants, or hydroponic setups.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Bought a Cu test accurate to .01 mg/L. Hopefully this will help in determining if i have Cu in my tank when it arrives later this week.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Ok! Scratch the 0.01 ppm titration kit, i went for the gold and tested several water samples from each of my tanks using a spectroscopy machine in the chem department. These readings are apparently extremely accurate, not to mention interesting.

Ok!
My tanks have the following concentration of elements in it in ppm...
::::::Adm. tank#1:: Adm. tank #2:::Room tank ::: Tap Adm. water 
Ag :::::: 0.0 ::::::::: 0.0019 :::::: 0.0 :::::::::: 0.0064 
Al :::::: 0.0 ::::::::::::::: 0.0 :::::: 0.0 :::::::::::: 0.292
As :::::: 0.0028 :::::: 0.0097 :::::: 0.0 :::::::: 0.0263
B :::::: 0.0611 :::::: 0.0481 :::::: 0.0918 :::::: 0.0791
Ba :::::: 0.024 :::::: 0.0078 :::::: 0.0309 :::::: 0.009
Ca :::::: 71.2 ::::::::: 44.3 :::::: 88.4 ::::::::::: 9.14
Cd :::::: 0.0 ::::::::::: 0.0 :::::: 0.0 ::::::::::: 0.0
Co :::::: 0.001 :::::: 0.0032 :::::: 0.0123 :::::: 0.001
Cr :::::: 0.0 :::::::::::: 0.0 :::::: 0.0 :::::::::::: 0.0
Cu :::::: 0.127 ::::::::: 0.238 :::::: 0.326 :::::: 0.0411
Fe :::::: 1.64 :::::::::: 1.75 :::::: 5.99 ::::::::: 0.0292
K :::::: 82.6 ::::::::::: 169 :::::: 497 ::::::::: 0.223
Mg:::::: 12.6 :::::::::: 9.27 :::::: 16.5 :::::::::: 1.78
Mn :::::: 0.218 :::::::: 0.256 :::::: 0.0 ::::::::::: 0.0844
Mo :::::: 0.0856 :::::: 0.122 :::::: 0.0808 :::::::::::: 0.0
Na :::::: 27.1 ::::::::: 18.4 :::::: 0.611 :::::::::: 5.84
Ni :::::: 0.0089 :::::: 0.0087 :::::: 0.0439 :::::: 0.0025
Pb :::::: 0.0 :::::::::::: 0.0 :::::: 0.0 :::::::::::: 0.0
Si :::::: 0.313 ::::::::: 0.403 :::::: 1.72 :::::::::: 2.83 
Zn :::::: 0.4 :::::::::: 0.412 :::::: 1.15 :::::: 0.0167

Each of these samples was tested 3 times and the average was taken of all three trials. The only exception was the tank in my room, for this sample only 1 test was completed. (Excuse the messy formatting, the stupid spacing on the forum doesnt work well.)

As far as i can see there are no problems with my traces (or macros), aside from copper being around 0.2ppm in concentration. 

My room tank seems a bit high in iron at nearly 6ppm, but that is due to fert dosing the other day, when i was tired and spilled quite a bit extra into the tank by accident. Interestingly the copper levels in this tank are higher too leading me to believe that the concentration of copper in CSM+B is significantly higher then what is claimed on the site as 0.09%.

I have read that 
"According to the latest printing of 'The optimum aqarium' many elements have different levels of toxicity according to whether they are organic or an-organic. For this reason Duplaplant 24 contains a certain amount of free chelating agents (EDTA) to bind to copper, etc, reducing their toxic effects. As an example they quote on page 112 that chelated copper has fatal effects around 10 mg/l as opposed to 0.1 mg/l for un-chelated copper. Keep adding theDuplaplant!"

So i assume that since i have been seeing weird problems, and my ferts are all in order that the plant and shrimp problems are due to the copper in my tank being above 0.1 mg/L.

However i may be overlooking something, can anyone see any problems i didn't see?


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## neil1973 (Feb 23, 2006)

That is very interesting. Could you give an indication as to what plants are in each of the tanks and how they are doing.

thanks
Neil


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Room tank: 
Not doing well: dwarf sag has many dead leaves, rotala wallichii/rotundifolia are not growing (not due to nitrogen deficiency). 

Doing ok: Downoi/anubias nana/petite/Cryptocryne Wendtii.

Admissions tank 1:
Not doing ok/already toast: rotalla rotundifolia, ludwigia repens, rotalla wallichii "mermaids tail"

Doing ok: HC, java fern, anubias nana/petite, glandulosa, a larger kind of sagiteria

Admissions tank 2:
Pretty new tank plants havent really had time to grow in much, but this tank seems to be doing better then the others.


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## neil1973 (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks again for providing some interesting info.

What do you make of the K levels especially in the room tank?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

As far as i know, high levels of K do not harm anything.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

No? No other speculations? I went through a lot of trouble getting these results and im still confused. What is the problem with the water?


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## neil1973 (Feb 23, 2006)

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me can comment here. Personally I have relatively little knowledge of metal toxicity issues in aquatic plants. I think it may be worth looking for literature produced by environment agencies in relation to discharge limits. There will definitely be differences between an aquarium situation and the long-term accumulation issues associated with wetlands though. Like I say I am speculating here but Zn may be worth investigating.

I am also not aware of any proof of issues with K. I asked about it because if you are not having issues with these quite high measured levels then it may be very useful info for those who are concerned about such problems.

Sorry I can’t offer any direct advice but I think it’s best to look for real evidence/research rather than making relatively uniformed guesses. Hope you manage to get some more out of your test results.

Neil


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm, interesting, Tom can you recommend a copper resin (or something like that) that will not absorb other trace elements, Co2, or nitrogen/phosphate?


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## neil1973 (Feb 23, 2006)

people used these a bit for marine tanks back in the days before RO was common. Might be worth a look. It removes most things so you would be looking at re adding what you wanted afterwards.

http://www.underworldproducts.co.uk/aquatic pages/polyfilter_page1.htm


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

edit


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