# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Soduim



## Garmoni (Dec 24, 2003)

Does anyone know if there is an effective way to test for sodium levels?


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## Garmoni (Dec 24, 2003)

Does anyone know if there is an effective way to test for sodium levels?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I don't think there is a test kit for sodium. You might check with Hach or LaMotte. You can get lab analyses.

In some cases there is a reasonable indication that sodium levels are high. If the KH is much greater than GH and you haven't been using unusual additives (e.g. potassium bicarbonate) then you can be sure that the sodium level is high. Your water softener removes GH and replaces it with sodium, so your softened water will be very high in sodium.

When KH is greater than GH you can estimate the minimum sodium level at about 8*(KH-GH) with both KH and GH in degrees or (KH-GH)/2 if KH and GH are both in ppm as CaCO3. That calculates the amount of sodium necessary to balance the amount of bicarbonate indicated by the KH measurement. The actual amount of sodium present can be quite a bit larger than this minimum estimate.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Garmoni (Dec 24, 2003)

Well there is no doubt that my sodium levels are high due to the softener. What kind of problems should I expect to encounter and how significant can they be. At the moment I am not noticing anything but am assuming that they will surface. The evolution of my tank is still young (new light fixtures last month and Co2 system just last week). I am considering re-doing some plumbing work so I can supplement my water changes with non-softened water.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

This varies with the kind of plants you choose to grow. I expect that you will see some problem as soon as the plants have grown much at all. The problems may not be obvious unless you have enough experience to know how things look when there are no problems.

High sodium levels can cause deficiencies in calcium and magnesium and they may exacerbate problems with potassium overdoses. Common symptoms would be stunted new leaves, death of the tip of stems plants followed by branching of the stem (both calcium deficiencies), yellowing between the veins of older leaves, marginal necrosis of leaves or holes in the leaves and early leaf drop (all magnesium deficiencies).

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Garmoni (Dec 24, 2003)

What do you feel would be a better course of action? Supplementing my water changes with non-softened water or fertilizing with calcium and magnesium.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Suppliment your water changes with non-softened water. That increases calcium and magnesium and it decreases sodium. Supplimenting with calcium and magnesium just increases the calcium and magnesium.

Roger Miller

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_"The indispensible first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want" -- Ben Stein_


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Also see if your water softener will use potassium chloride instead of salt.










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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

My tap water: 

Potassium, K: 1,5 mg/l
Magnesium, Mg: 2.3 mg/l
Sodium, Na: 19 mg/l

Total hardness: 3,6 dH

My Hagen Ca-test-kit says 15 mg/l Ca2+, which doens't make sense with the Magnesium content as stated by my water company - but I've heard the Ca and Mg content can drop in the water pipes on it's way to the customers?

I notice Calcium deficiency as soon as I use MgSO4 - is this because my relatively high sodium-level in my tap water?

Based on the levels above: What should I add to achieve "optimal" levels? As of now I only juse tracemix without Mg and KNO3 and KH2PO4. No extra K from K2SO4.

I immediately see less curly growth if I dose CaCO3 or stops dosing MgSO4.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

defdac,

There's nothing wrong with your tap water. It looks excellent. Sodium should not be a problem.

I don't see how 15 mg/l of Ca2+ is a problem when compared to 2.3 mg/l Mg2+. Nature does not provide fixed ratios in our water. Ca and Mg content usually doesn't drop in the water pipes. If it does then it is really bad news for the water system because it will quickly form deposits that degrade the performance of the system.

If you see a calcium deficiency symptoms when you add magnesium, then you need to blame the magnesium, not the sodium. How much magnesium sulfate are you adding? Hydroponics sources indicate that the magnesium concentration should not exceed the calcium concentration. If it does then it may block plant uptake or use of calcium and lead to calcium deficiency.


Roger Miller


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Ok, but the fact remains: When I (and several others in Sweden) dose like 5-10 ppm of MgSO4 the leaves get heavily distorted and the other way around: If I dose like 1 tsp of CaCO3 in my 310-litre aquarium the distorted leaves goes away.

I know the plants can take ranges of nutrient-levels, but in this case the ranges seems awfully narrow.

Could it be something other?

My CO2-levels are always above 20 ppm and I dose 1 ppm KH2PO4 and 10 ppm NO3 every other day. My micro-mix contains 2,9 g/L Boron and I dose 3 ml of this mix ever other day, so I doubt it has something to do others than Ca:Mg-levels - perhaps Na-levels.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by defdac:
> I know the plants can take ranges of nutrient-levels, but in this case the ranges seems awfully narrow.


Plants will accept a wide range in concentrations of some nutrients. They don't seem to be quite so accepting of a wider range of ratios between nutrients. If you get the ratios between nutrients far different from the normal ratios then problems can arise.

What I don't understand is why -- with the tap water concentration you listed -- you are adding any calcium or magnesium. When you say you add 5-10 ppm Mg2+, just how and how often do you do that?



> quote:
> 
> Could it be something other?


Sure. I don't know what though.



> quote:
> 
> My CO2-levels are always above 20 ppm and I dose 1 ppm KH2PO4 and 10 ppm NO3 every other day.


10 ppm NO3 every other day?!? With KNO3? Is that right?



> quote:
> 
> My micro-mix contains 2,9 g/L Boron and I dose 3 ml of this mix ever other day, so I doubt it has something to do others than Ca:Mg-levels - perhaps Na-levels.


How big is your tank? How big and how frequent are you water changes?

The sodium concentration in your water supply is low. I can't think of anything that would make sodium a factor unless you're dosing a lot of something else that contains sodium.

Roger Miller


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Thanks for bearing with my questions Roger. I really would like to get a better grip of this.

I have a 300 litres aquarium, 0,7 watts/litre, 50-75% wc every week or every three days depending on how things look and the need of trimming/rearranging/messing with substrate.



> quote:
> 
> What I don't understand is why -- with the tap water concentration you listed -- you are adding any calcium or magnesium.


I don't anymore. No I only add micro/traces, KNO3 and KH2PO4.



> quote:
> 
> When you say you add 5-10 ppm Mg2+, just how and how often do you do that?


I did it every time I dosed the other nutrients, which I now know was totally wrong. Each dose sabotaged the Ca:Mg even more.



> quote:
> 
> 10 ppm NO3 every other day?!? With KNO3? Is that right?


Yes, I've been experimenting with high NO3 and PO4-levels to se how far I can take things. Growth is good (some distorted though which is my real problem) and algae is under control.

In fact. If I get tender with KNO3 Cyanobacteria pops up immediately - but I admit I'm on the verge of taking things to far.

My experiment is concluded so I will probably drop down to half the dosage anyway.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Possibly your distorted leaves result from the large KNO3 dose. For each 10 ppm of NO3 you are also adding 9 ppm of K. That is in addition to the K from KH2PO4 and fish feeding. Dosing 3x/week and doing 50% water changes could give you a potassium level as high as 54 ppm. With weekly 75% water changes the level could be as high as 34 ppm. Compare that to a water supply calcium concentration of 15 ppm. Your potassium concentration would easily have been 2x the calcium concentration and could have been even farther out of proportion.

What plants had the distorted leaves?


Roger Miller


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

It's Hygrophila polyspera "rosanervig", Nesaea spec red and Ludwigia glandulosa.

Hm.. I thought it was closer to 6 ppm K for every 10 ppm NO3 (Chuck Gadds calculator), but anyway: Thanks for the information. I will reduce my KNO3 dosage as of now.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Oops. My mistake. It is 0.63 ppm K per ppm of NO3. That's what I get for working from memory. Correcting my error lowers the potassium concentration estimates from 54 and 34 ppm to 36 and 23 ppm -- still both well over the calcium concentration.

Nesaea is a genus that seems particularly sensitive to potassium overdoses. I haven't heard of problems with L. glandulosa before. I know that H. corymbosa can have problems, so it seems reasonable that H. polysperma would also be sensitive.


Roger Miller


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