# Practical and ethical issues in the live fish trade



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Hello everyone,

This discussion started in a thread on the DFW Aquatic Plant Club forum, titled "Petsmart $1 fish sale", and referenced by Niko in his post on this forum, titled "Please read this, it should concern all of us".

This seems to be the best place to continue the discussion, if any are interested. So far, the discussion has been thoughtful and courteous. Let's keep it that way.

Thank you,
Michael Parkey


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

It'd be great to have a list of our "Approved Vendors" who don't sell wild-caught and ship with a minimum fish-weight-to-liter ratio. Clearly, if this were to apply to the middle-men too it would have to involve some inside info.

Is that possible within the rules of the APC forum?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

There are no such vendors.

Invertz Factory is the only one that would pack with the fish in mind. Noone else would pack 10 pigmy cories spread in 5 bags + no wrinkles on the bags so the fish don't get wedged in them and die. 

As I said before - cheap fish means one thing - a low quality hobby. 

As far as wild caught fish are concerned - it maybe hard to say if the fish trade does more damage than deforestation and utilization of more and more wild habitats due to economic reasons. Leave the poor fish be in a deteriorating environment or catch them to sell them to customers that kill them - feels like catch 22 to me.

Bottom line is - more awareness about better practices in this hobby is good for both the fish and for our peace of mind.

--Nikolay


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

We can be pretty certain that habitat destruction and climate change are a greater danger to wild fish populations than collecting, with a few exceptions.

In the absence of any real data about practices in the life fish trade, it is very difficult to make a choice on ethical grounds. Perhaps the only alternative is to buy fish only from breeders whose facilities one can visit personally, most likely other hobbyists. This certainly reduces the variety of species available.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

The nature of thread is not suitable for such a broad topic. However, I hope the activity on this thread will eventually lead to the creation of a forum on the fish trade.



niko said:


> As far as wild caught fish are concerned - it maybe hard to say if the fish trade does more damage than deforestation and utilization of more and more wild habitats due to economic reasons. Leave the poor fish be in a deteriorating environment or catch them to sell them to customers that kill them - feels like catch 22 to me.


I once read that buying wild caught fish is a way of supporting the primitive local economy in the remote regions. How much truth is that? Or does it depend on the type of fish?

BTW, is there a list of things that hobbyists should know about the fish trade?


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

niko said:


> There are no such vendors.
> 
> Invertz Factory is the only one that would pack with the fish in mind. Noone else would pack 10 pigmy cories spread in 5 bags + no wrinkles on the bags so the fish don't get wedged in them and die.
> 
> ...


ROFL this supports what the community says about niko (refer to his signature) I agree with niko. I bought 10 pygmy cories and each bag held only two cories in perfectly heat sealed bags with enough water to minimize sloshing, double layered packed nicely in a styro lined box! this packing is what i call quality. Even though pygmy cories are small fish he still took the time to give them enough space and comfort to reduce stress in shipping. the only thing is they need a more frequently updated stocklist >.>
I wouldn't say buying from him was expensive, in fact it was cheaper and more worth it than buying from some mass importer like corys r us. 
as for the issue...
i can see that this will eventually turn into a battle between someone. 
but it would be like saying, the only reason why they're people selling fish like this is because we want fish and are willing to buy it in the first place. but in a way we're doing the fish as favor, we're simply keeping the species alive, versus if our habitat destruction and what not reached the source of the fish, bye bye no more something species. 
i don't know about making a list... it'd seem more trouble than its worth, if you just start out and you're not established with selling off the babies, no ones going to buy from you. i'd say either buy from reputable sellers like niko and haggle for cheaper pricing or suck it up and buy from another person, if you buy from someone who's in it for profit think about the fact that if you choose not to buy from him/her, he's not going to stop because of you. there are many fish in the sea. refraining might make yourself feel better but in reality is it really worth it? the brutal sellers will still all be there, you've only accomplished supporting another seller.


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

sorry if i am contradicting, i just fired thoughts off the top of my head because after 5 seconds of typing i forgot what i was going to argue for


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> I once read that buying wild caught fish is a way of supporting the primitive local economy in the remote regions. How much truth is that? Or does it depend on the type of fish?


I have also read this. In some collection locations the aquarium fish trade promotes conservation as the locals don't want destruction of local habitats to destroy their business of collecting fish for the aquarium trade.

Regarding paying more to improve living conditions of fish: I hate to be cynical, but we buy cheap products at the peril of people all the time. I doubt fish will get better treatment any time soon.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"I once read that buying wild caught fish is a way of supporting the primitive local economy in the remote regions. How much truth is that? Or does it depend on the type of fish?"

This can be true, but it has to be carefully organized and monitored. First, the fish must be havested in a way that the wild population can support without crashing. Second, the value of the fish must be linked in a very direct way to habitat preservation so that local people understand the connection. Third, enough of the income from sale of the fish MUST be redistributed to local people to make a difference in their lives. This last requirement is much more difficult to accomplish than you might imagine.

Nonetheless, similar things have been done. Most of these programs rely on eco-tourism for income, but some South American countries have "extractive reserves" where natural products are harvested from rain forests by local people using traditional, sustainable techniques. If this is being done somewhere with fish, I'd love to hear about it.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> If this is being done somewhere with fish, I'd love to hear about it.


Here's the website of project piaba:

http://opefe.com/piaba.html

Project Piaba is a community based interdisciplinary project established to understand the ecological and socio-cultural systems of the middle Rio ***** basin, Amazonas, Brazil, in order to conserve and maintain the live ornamental fishery and other renewable resources at commercially feasible, and ecologically sustainable level.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

geeks_15 said:


> Regarding paying more to improve living conditions of fish: I hate to be cynical, but we buy cheap products at the peril of people all the time.


Price is about demand and supply. If the demand-supply decisions are not driven by considerations on the living condition of fish, then paying a higher price is not likely to improve their living condition. In fact blindly paying a higher price may lead to the exploitation on nature which is not good for fish.

After hobbyists are educated on the fish trade, they will have the required information to effectively channel their spending. That will more likely improve the living condition of fish.

BTW, higher price is often the result of market inefficiency. Having more hobbyists educated on the fish trade can significantly improve market efficiency. That can result in both a lower price and a better living condition for fish.



geeks_15 said:


> I doubt fish will get better treatment any time soon.


Education takes time. To bring the fish trade issue to hobbyist awareness, we need an on-going mechanism like a discussion forum dedicated to the fish trade. At any time, people can search and discuss in that forum on the various aspects of fish trade. People in the trade can participate in that forum to promote good practice and make themselves known to the people who are the most likely to appreciate their practice. The forum brings together the conscientious-minded hobbyists and suppliers.



Michael said:


> Third, enough of the income from sale of the fish MUST be redistributed to local people to make a difference in their lives. This last requirement is much more difficult to accomplish than you might imagine.


Right now the fish trade is like a black box. Having hobbyists educated on the trade will result in more transparency. May be by then we will have "fair trade fish", as in "fair trade coffee".


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ah good to see we are talking about "education" now. I'll talk about the planted tank hobby and the common perceptions.

I talked with a person that has seen our hobby for many years and has experience in marketing. I asked her how does she view our hobby. She said that overall it leaves you with the impression of something cheap. She said that until we work out the looks of the tanks - equipment, stands, etc - the hobby will always look cheap. And bring low prices. Which we here more or less associate with fish abuse.

She said that Amano has figured it out eons ago with sleek tanks, cool looking equipment and stunning aquascapes - all of which convey the feeling of something valuable and luxurious. Could be the Japanese mentality, but most of us here in the US have tanks looking like they came from the early 80's, with electric cords, tubes and what not showing.



















Yes, you could say that is all one person's view. But what I think is that it makes a lot of sense. How many times we've heard how saltwater tanks are "better" than planted tanks. It's a common knowledge among most people, even involved in the aquarium hobby. And it's all based on the knowledge that more money goes into a saltwater tank. Noone can tell me that a beautiful planted tank aquascape is inferior to a full blown reef tank.

So there needs to be education. Leading toward acceptance of the planted tank hobby as a special and attractive part of the home environment. ADG has figured that a long time ago too (and even got somewhat tired of it) while the rest of us are still scratching our heads trying to figure out how to enhance the image of this hobby. And save a few fishies in the process.

--Nikolay


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

niko said:


> She said that Amano has figured it out eons ago with sleek tanks, cool looking equipment and stunning aquascapes - all of which convey the feeling of something valuable and luxurious. Could be the Japanese mentality


Yes, from my experience. They can take it to a whole new different level - be it Nature Aquarium, Origami, Bonsai, Ikebana, Chanoyu, Zen, etc&#8230;Making ordinary things special and treasured by many.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Since this thread is about the fish trade, may I ask how the following relates to the subject.



niko said:


> Ah good to see we are talking about "education" now. I'll talk about the planted tank hobby and the common perceptions.
> 
> I talked with a person that has seen our hobby for many years and has experience in marketing. I asked her how does she view our hobby. She said that overall it leaves you with the impression of something cheap. She said that until we work out the looks of the tanks - equipment, stands, etc - the hobby will always look cheap. And bring low prices. Which we here more or less associate with fish abuse.
> 
> ...


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> After hobbyists are educated on the fish trade, they will have the required information to effectively channel their spending. That will more likely improve the living condition of fish.


Of course I agree that education is key. The problem is that most people don't care to be educated. My point was that we buy cheap products of all sorts and often that cheap price is made possible by exploitation of some sort. If markets exploit people for cheap prices, what hope do fish have?

Fair trade fish is a nice idea, but just like fair trade coffee it will remain a minority of the business as long as people choose a cheap price over the well being of coffee bean farmers and fish.

If we figure out how we can educate a public that doesn't want to (or can't be bothered to) be educated, we should translate our findings to health care, obesity, politics, child labor, sweat shops, etc.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

geeks_15 said:


> Of course I agree that education is key. The problem is that most people don't care to be educated.


Yes, to those people who can't be bothered to even visit a forum, little can be done. But to those who take the initiative to visit a forum, they may end up learning a lot about the fish trade if there is such a forum.



geeks_15 said:


> My point was that we buy cheap products of all sorts and often that cheap price is made possible by exploitation of some sort. If markets exploit people for cheap prices, what hope do fish have?


The hope is in helping people to see the exploits so that they can decide for themselves whether they want to be a part of it.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> Yes, to those people who can't be bothered to even visit a forum, little can be done. But to those who take the initiative to visit a forum, they may end up learning a lot about the fish trade if there is such a forum.
> 
> The hope is in helping people to see the exploits so that they can decide for themselves whether they want to be a part of it.


Yes, I agree. It is just a difficult problem as the majority I'm afraid are not interested.

I'm definitely in favor of a forum or at least a thread (like this one) to discuss the topic. The people that are truly interested can make a difference.


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## mossback (Aug 12, 2010)

An introductory forum could be useful. 

But avoid the temptation to use it as a vehicle for pushing fair trade fish. Fair trade may be a noble idea, but the reality is that when you subsidize a practice, you get more of it. So the conscientous fair trade supporter will find himself obligated to prop up ever increasing numbers of folks who think that they'll be able to make a living at collecting or farming fish. Ultimately, fair trade is a nonstarter. 

Better to focus on 'product' quality -- ie, healthy (vs mistreated) fish, the added value that justifies the added cost, and how to recognize value. In the real world, among real consumers, quality trumps being preached at every time.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Jeremy, thanks for the link to Projecto Piaba.

Everyone's comments have been very interesting and helpful, but my practical side wants more. Are there any concrete steps we can take besides shopping in "nice" fish stores that treat their livestock well once in the store? Is there any way to tell if the wild-caught fish offered are harvested in a sustainable way? Should we confine ourselves to tank-bred, locally produced fish?


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> Everyone's comments have been very interesting and helpful, but my practical side wants more. Are there any concrete steps we can take besides shopping in "nice" fish stores that treat their livestock well once in the store? Is there any way to tell if the wild-caught fish offered are harvested in a sustainable way? Should we confine ourselves to tank-bred, locally produced fish?


You can shop directly from importers. Steve Lundblad (from the cichlid exchange and wet spot tropical fish) gave the talk at our most recent fish club meeting. He actually travels to places and meets some of the people he buys from. This doesn't guarantee anything, but it is a conscientious person one step closer to the source.

Also, be judicious with where you spend your money. If you don't like the way a certain company treats their fish, then don't buy their fish. But don't buy aquariums or filters or food from them either. When you spend your money you are voting. Don't vote for a company you don't believe in, even if they have a cheaper price. Spend the extra money to support the local fish store, or the local club, or the importer who provides high quality fish. If you don't they may close up shop and the problem is likely to worsen.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

geeks_15 said:


> You can shop directly from importers. Steve Lundblad (from the cichlid exchange and wet spot tropical fish) gave the talk at our most recent fish club meeting. He actually travels to places and meets some of the people he buys from. This doesn't guarantee anything, but it is a conscientious person one step closer to the source.


Is there a good place to look into for doing direct import?



geeks_15 said:


> Also, be judicious with where you spend your money. If you don't like the way a certain company treats their fish, then don't buy their fish. But don't buy aquariums or filters or food from them either. When you spend your money you are voting. Don't vote for a company you don't believe in, even if they have a cheaper price.


When a place has questionable live fish practice, I do not buy fish from them. I hope they either improve or eventually get out of the live fish business. But if they handle dry goods well, why should those business be penalized as well?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

bartoli said:


> Since this thread is about the fish trade, may I ask how the following relates to the subject...


I too see no connection.

There is no connection between seeing the planted tank hobby as more upscale and ethical treatment of fish. 
There is no connection between seeing the planted tank hobby as cheap and ethical treatment of fish.

The planted tank hobby has nothing to do with ethics, fish, or anything but itself.

I really don't know what I was thinking. I apologize.

Now for something completely different - if someone can tell me where to buy Cardinals for $0.49 each?

--Nikolay


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

bartoli said:


> Since this thread is about the fish trade, may I ask how the following relates to the subject...


[The following contains sarcasm:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm]

I too see no connection.

There is no connection between seeing the planted tank hobby as more upscale and ethical treatment of fish. 
There is no connection between seeing the planted tank hobby as cheap and ethical treatment of fish.

The planted tank hobby has nothing to do with ethics, fish, or anything but itself.

I really don't know what I was thinking. I'm not even sure how to spell "ethical" right. I apologize.

Now for something completely different - if someone can tell me where to buy Cardinals for $0.49 each and $0.25 Crypts? Piaba or no Piaba, I'd take cheap fish and plants any day.

--Nikolay


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

mossback said:


> But avoid the temptation to use it as a vehicle for pushing fair trade fish. Fair trade may be a noble idea, but the reality is that when you subsidize a practice, you get more of it. So the conscientous fair trade supporter will find himself obligated to prop up ever increasing numbers of folks who think that they'll be able to make a living at collecting or farming fish.


My understanding is that through making our spending choice we support fair trade. An excess of fair trade suppliers will push the price down to the point that some suppliers cannot stay in the business. Thus, there is no propping up.



mossback said:


> Better to focus on 'product' quality -- ie, healthy (vs mistreated) fish, the added value that justifies the added cost, and how to recognize value.


I prefer LFS running separate tanks, not a central circulation system connecting to all tanks. Unless a central system is equipped with UV sterilizer, a single sick fish in one of the many connected tanks can quickly spread the disease to all other tanks. When the newly infected fish are among a supply of very healthy stock, the infection can take sometime to have visible sign. Meanwhile because those infected fish are healthy looking, people prefer them. Thus, bringing home good healthy looking "disease carriers".


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

niko said:


> [The following contains sarcasm:
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm]
> 
> I too see no connection.
> ...


May be the problem here is with concept substitution.

Do not make the mistake of substituting the perception of being upscale for being ethical.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

So what do we do? Continue be cheapskates and rally for versions of Piaba around the world?

--Nikolay


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

niko said:


> So what do we do?


First and foremost is to bring awareness to the practice currently going on in the fish trade.

Nikolay, looks like you know something about this area. Why not share with us?


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

You guys are starting to shout at each other while wearing fake smiles. People can argue about ethics and not get anywhere, its like the issue of human cloning... well kinda.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> When a place has questionable live fish practice, I do not buy fish from them. I hope they either improve or eventually get out of the live fish business. But if they handle dry goods well, why should those business be penalized as well?


I believe many pet suppliers make their money on dry goods. They sell fish to get you in the door, but the mark up on a $0.99 fish is not much. Plus fish have to be specially shipped and they have a finite shelf life or they die and are a total loss. They sell fish so you'll come into the store and buy the aquarium, the lights, the filter, etc.

So they don't care if you buy fish. They want you to buy dry goods. If you buy dry goods from a business that mistreats fish, then they make their money and never hear any complaints about the way they handle their fish. If you want to get a business' attention, hit them where they will notice, the bottom line. And they won't notice if you pass on the small mark up fish, but buy the large mark up dry goods.



> Is there a good place to look into for doing direct import?


I don't know about doing direct import. I imagine there are issues with customs and shipping that would be cost and time prohibitive for a hobbyist (as opposed to a business). But you can buy from importers like Steve at The Wet Spot tropical fish (they sell on aquabid) and Mark at Anubias Design. I don't know them personally, but they both deal in fish that are more unusual and likely would not survive the treatment many fish receive. I have heard good things from people who have bought from them. Steve discussed conservation at his talk to our local fish club. I bought wild fish from Amazon Tropicals that came to me in great condition.

The point is there are importers out there. You can order fish from them and you can talk to them if you have conservation concerns.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Jeremy, thank you for the info on importers.



geeks_15 said:


> I believe many pet suppliers make their money on dry goods. They sell fish to get you in the door, but the mark up on a $0.99 fish is not much. Plus fish have to be specially shipped and they have a finite shelf life or they die and are a total loss. They sell fish so you'll come into the store and buy the aquarium, the lights, the filter, etc.
> 
> So they don't care if you buy fish. They want you to buy dry goods. If you buy dry goods from a business that mistreats fish, then they make their money and never hear any complaints about the way they handle their fish. If you want to get a business' attention, hit them where they will notice, the bottom line. And they won't notice if you pass on the small mark up fish, but buy the large mark up dry goods.


So, live fish is a loss leader to bring customers in for the dry goods which is where the real money is made. Never thought of it that way. I wonder how common is that business model among pet suppliers?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

bartoli said:


> So, live fish is a loss leader to bring customers in for the dry goods which is where the real money is made. Never thought of it that way. I wonder how common is that business model among pet suppliers?


It is almost the only business model among pet retailers. Very few derive the majority of their income from livestock.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Michael said:


> It is almost the only business model among pet retailers. Very few derive the majority of their income from livestock.


This is very surprising for it means that those stores that do not sell livestock can make even with a much lower markup. And yet they seem to have the largest markup on the same dry goods.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I have a few honest friends who run LFS or formerly run LFS. Through these friends I have learned that they generate more money selling equipment than selling fishes. Equipment will not die in their shop but fishes may die off. Fishes which are too sensitive are not profitable because sometimes they die off during quarantine period even before they can sell any. Yes, they are more responsible by carrying out quarantine.

Once I asked why all the cheap or popular fishes were so fragile. I got the answer that a lot of farms did not care for those cheap fishes. They just mass produced them and sometimes did not even feed them in the ponds. Due to the mass amount of water in the pond, these fishes survived but might carry disease/unhealthy. The moment they left the pond, due to the stress of transportation and poor condition, they started to die of one by one. The death rate would continue from the moment they left the pond until they were purchased. That was the reason they did not stock common livebearers which were considered bread & butter in other LFS. In additional to those issue, the water in my area was soft water. So some of the livebearers did not do well in it. 

Sharing filter in the entire LFS is a pretty common practice unfortunately. I remember asking for some used filter media to cycle my tank from one of the trusted LFS. I was advised not to do so because all of their tanks were sharing a common filter and they lost some fishes not too long ago. At least, they were honest.

Sometimes it's very frustrating to educate friends new to this hobby. First of all, they are not willing to learn. You can supply them a long list of information and some forums but none of them will be utilise. This issue is not applicable with kids/teenagers but it's applicable to matured adult professionals too. Usually I get responses such as, "No, I just want a basic fish tank. No light. No plant. No quarantine and all the complicated process.". Very frequently, these people fall in the catagory of "buy fish, kill fish and abandon the hobby". Some of them do not even last beyond 1 month. Unfortunately, we have a lot of these people to keep the business of LFS running. Most of the LFS do not bother to teach unless you ask. Some of them even provide wrong information. Once a salesperson of a LFS told me that some customers got offended when the salesperson tried to brief them. 

Some customers have the mentallity of "do you think I'm stupid?" when someone tries to teach them something or trying to help. Usually these are the people that will never learn. Sometimes I have encountered such persons in forums too.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

I posted the original thread that led to this discussion, that being a thread about the sale at Petsmart. Later in the thread, I expressed my frustration with the conditions I saw in the tanks at a local Petsmart. What happens from the time the fish are moved from the breeding farm or their natural habitat is really beyond me. I have no dealing with the trade on that level, and here's the thing--should I have to? Should I or any of us who buy fish locally have to be concerned about the ethical treatment of the fish before they reach the merchant? Hell no!

We are all stretching the issue out. Who is accountable to us as consumers? That's who should be concerned with the ethical treatment of animals, because quite simply it is their business and it is something they make a part of their image. Petsmart, Petco, whoever. We should be concerned when we walk into these merchants and see conditions that are unacceptable. We all know what fish overcrowding looks like, we know what a clean tank _should_ look like ... we all recognize conditions that lead to poor health and disease in fish. There shouldn't be numerous dead fish lying in what is essentially a bare bottom tank _ever_.

These merchants have a responsibility to the animals they sell, up until the time they relinquish that responsibility to us at the time of the sale. If this means they must charge more to educate their employees of proper practices, so be it. If this means they have to go to their suppliers and insist on quality shipping methods, that's what they need to do.

The burden isn't on us to change the trade, it's on the merchants who advertise to us and want our business. I have made a decision recently to discontinue all my business with certain merchants due to their treatment of their animals, not just fish. I will encourage others to do the same, and I will call out these merchants for their poor practices at every opportunity.

This is the only practical thing I can do. I'm not going to convince Asian breeders or South American collectors to change anything about their methods. I can however pick and choose who I buy my fish from based on how they are caring for the fish once in their possession.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Bubba and his "import and dispatch quickly" scheme always wins if we don't discuss these matters all the time until there is an established knowledge what happens to the fish during import. And based on that HOPEFULLY most hobbyists will steer toward reputable sellers. Enhancing the image of the hobby as I suggested could only help, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

But how can we discuss these matters all the time? This is a hobby after all. 

One approach would be to ask the sellers questions about their practices and openly discuss the positive and negative experiences. But forums (not just APC) do not like to much discussion about selling/buying experiences.

So I asked - what can we do? I don't think we have come to any better idea other than "I will be careful about the sellers I deal with." Grassroots effort. Commendable. How can it become something greater?

--Nikolay


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Ekrindul said:


> The burden isn't on us to change the trade, it's on the merchants who advertise to us and want our business. I have made a decision recently to discontinue all my business with certain merchants due to their treatment of their animals, not just fish. I will encourage others to do the same, and I will call out these merchants for their poor practices at every opportunity.
> 
> This is the only practical thing I can do. I'm not going to convince Asian breeders or South American collectors to change anything about their methods. I can however pick and choose who I buy my fish from based on how they are caring for the fish once in their possession.


For a long time, big-name chains have been buying up independent stores during the boom time. Therefore, less real choice for the hobbyists.

Then when the time is bad, those very same chains close down the less profitable outlets. Making the situation worse and hobbyists are quitting.

But hobbyists who are knowlegeable about the fish trade may be able to bypass those questionable big-name stores even though they are the only game in town.

While the hobbyists are bypassing the only game in town, hopefully the chains will see a drop in fish business and decide to improve. Things will be better for the hobbyists.

But the chains may decide to shrink their fish section or even close it down altogether and expand on other pets instead. That may create opportunity for some independent stores - another cycle has started.

A cycle takes years to play out. Meanwhile, knowledge about the fish trade enables more people to stay in the hobby.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> The burden isn't on us to change the trade, it's on the merchants who advertise to us and want our business.


The majority of pet merchants are in business to make money, not because they really care about fish or pets. So the way to change a business practice is to vote with your dollars. The business will give the consumer what they will spend money on. So the burden is really on the consumer. If you demand good treatment of fish (and are willing to pay for it) the merchant will provide it. But if you demand good treatment of fish, but won't pay the premium price the merchant will not provide it.

Lets look at the business side of the argument. If I want to start a fish importing and selling business with the highest standards: I'll import fish from responsible collectors (I'll do some research, talk to people, and learn from experience). I'll have them shipped fewer fish per bag with additives to prevent toxin build up. I'll ship them as rapidly as possible. When I receive them I'll keep fewer per tank and I'll quarantine them to make sure they're healthy. I'll feed them high quality food while I have them and I'll do plenty of water changes. Then I'll sell my cardinal tetras for $8 a piece. Also, I'll only have one location (I'm a small operation by myself) so I'd better ship fish or my market will be too small to sell all my fish. So add $20-45 to ship the fish overnight (only the best for my fish).

So in the name of ethical treatment of fish, who will pay $100 for a small school of cardinal tetras?

I'm guessing on the numbers, but each step costs real additional money and it adds up. Plus you need to make a profit or you won't be in business long.

BTW, I take good care of the fish I breed taking many of the steps above (except shipping...I don't ship), but I sell them to the LFS for 1/3 retail price or I struggle to sell them to the local fish club members for 1/3 to 1/2 retail price. I'm not mad about it. I just know first hand that people won't pay for quality. And my apistos are quality (the fins on the cacatuoides I have raised are spectacular and far superior to their parents which I bought at a local fish store), not because I'm a great fish keeper, but because I care and I do water changes, keep few fish per tank, and feed high quality food.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> So I asked - what can we do?


I can think of 4 steps to try to change the industry:

1. Like we've already said, buy from businesses you believe in. If it means paying more, you have to be willing to pay.

2. Try to educate consumers. It is difficult but not impossible. Info on puppy mills has gotten out to a certain extent and probably helps. That could be a model to look to.

3. Try to educate collectors. Many in the food fisheries have embraced sustainable fishing after they have realized that it sustains their business for the long term without killing it in the short term.

4. Organize and reach out to businesses. Many local fish clubs are already an organized group. The club should support ethical businesses. The club could write a letter to a business they are unhappy with expressing their concerns. If nothing else you could have a club member in charge of ethics in the hobby to bring current info to meetings.

And a couple ideas to treat fish well on a small scale:

1. Take good care of your own fish and educate your friends on how they can do the same. Tell them why they should or should not shop at a certain fish retailer.

2. Breed you fish, raise'em up right, and distribute them. You'll know they were well taken care of and you can educate the buyer on how they can take good care of them. Fewer fish will need to be caught or imported or shipped or sent to a retail store.


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

niko said:


> So I asked - what can we do? I don't think we have come to any better idea other than "I will be careful about the sellers I deal with." Grassroots effort. Commendable. How can it become something greater?


Many causes and industries use the "stamp of approval" to accomplish this. These come in all levels of effort and validity.

At the low end, there's the self-nominated quickly-reviewed kind, which at least gets the word out. At the high-end there is auditing and inspections.

So what about starting small with a "Good Fishkeeping" Seal of Approval program of the simplest kind?

Has that been tried before, other than as a marketing gimmick?


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

In 2000, the CEO of Petsmart, Philip Francis, said they would not sell rabbits, due to rabbits being the #1 animal destroyed in animal shelters annually. In 2007, Petsmart began selling rabbits. Here's a statement by current CEO, Bob Moran:

"Look, I tell my associates working with customers that I don't care if they sell something. It's the relationship. It's the adoption. If we do our job, we'll get the sales. It's a big difference from Sears and Toys "R" Us. At those companies, we used the word passion all the time. I didn't fully understand passion before. We are entrusted with something we have to protect. Customers can see through it if you're fake. How many companies can say they can stand for something?"

What a joke. 

I'm not sure a "Good Fishkeeping" seal of approval would affect the decision making of a company such as this, especially when the majority of their consumer base isn't what we would consider to be fish hobbyists. However, on the low end, as you say, it's not a bad idea. As for auditing and inspections, PETA has been after Petco and Petsmart for years. The results seem to be lacking, and not for lack of trying.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I see that there are deep waters too. 

To me it's disheartening to, once again, realize that most of the fish imported from who knows where end up in aquariums of people that have no clue how to keep them.

To add to Geek_15's list of possible actual actions - as a local club we could actually print flyers to advertise the club + have most of the flyer explaining basic, down to earth, things about keeping fish in an aquarium. 

--Nikolay


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