# CaCl2, MgS04, and NaHCo3 dosing? need help for start-up



## Ctenopoma (Jul 2, 2011)

I have been reading about different techniques for planted tanks for years and always thought C02 was a crutch for some odd reason. I keep fish full-time so paying attention to the planted tank side of things is long overdue, but I finally have the resources. Seeing Tom Barr speak and getting to chat a little finally convinced me that this is the way to have a lush, thriving, planted tank environment, that _also_ works well for fish, since the fish are first and foremost in my mind.

I'm setting up a 90 gallon with flourite substrate and a coralife T5H0 fixture. (2 x 54 W lights). My main goal is to grow a ton of plants and harvest them for using in other tanks, and keep some fish thriving while I do it. I have a 15 lb C02 cylinder with milwakee reg/solenoid/bubble counter, a small ceramic diffuser, fluval internal canister filtr, and koralia powerhead.

Now I am trying to work out the simplest way to dose everything from dry if possible. At least I have CaCl2, MgS04, and NaHCo3. I plan to dose the other macros with seachem's flourish line until I can work those out over time too.

I am in the PNW and have basically 0 hardness so trying to figure out how much of these various dry additives need to go in the buffer the tank so I can keep it around at least 30 ppm C02.

Any advice/encouragement is welcome!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Ctenopoma,

Welcome to APC! I'm glad you had the opportunity to hear Tom speak when he made his trek through the Northwest last fall.

If you heard Tom's talk here in Seattle (I believe that he also visited Portland,OR and Vancouver, BC) I asked him specifically about our NW water, which in most areas is very soft. He stated that he has the same problem in the SF area that he doesn't worry about the dKH but that he does try to maintain at least 4.0 dGH.

I used to dose CaCl and MgSO4 to get my hardness up; but it was a challenge for me to dose the two chemicals to maintain the suggested 4:1 ratio Ca:Mg ratio. Now I just dose Seachem Equilibrium (3.3:1 ratio) when I do my weekly water changes. Not only does it have the correct ratio of Ca:Mg but also a lot of micronutrients that my soft water is lacking.


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## Ctenopoma (Jul 2, 2011)

Hi Roy, Jen here up in Vancouver, where I heard Tom speak.  I'm trialing this for some larger tanks so while Equilibrium looks like an excellent product, this tank is an experiment for larger ones in the future so I am trying to find out how to do it with the cheapest dry stuff I can- slightly more torture but hopefully will be worth it in the end. I'm planning to dose some of the Flourish trace element stuff as well until I can also get those worked out as dry ferts...

I think I will just have to experiment on a small volume of water and see how much it takes to get it up to 5 dGH? (4 of that being Ca 1 being Mg?)

Cheers


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Jen,

APC has a great fertilizer calculator; the Fertilator. Equal parts of CaCl / MgSO4 will give you approximately the correct ratio of Ca:Mg.

Using the Fertilator; for 100 liters of water if you add 1 tsp of CaCl and 1 tsp of MgSO4 will give you about 16 ppm Ca and 5 ppm of Mg. (About the middle of the target range of both nutrients.)

As for Seachem Trace elements I did use it for a while, but saw little benefit. Today I dose per the Estimative Index (EI) for my macro and micro nutrients (KNO3; KH2PO4; CSM+B). I also dose Seachem Flourish Comprehensive 2X a week for the extra micronutrients that CSM+B is missing and Seachem Excel (Glutaraldehyde) for extra carbon molecules and algacide properties. My plants seem to like it.

PS: The CaCl creates a strong exothermic reaction (gets really hot) when in contact with water; when I was using CaCl I always fully dissolved it before adding it to the aquarium.


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

On subject question, SA.

I'm dosing EI (KNO3,KH2PO4, and K2SO4 & CSM+B) but due to a absurdly low Ca and Mg content at my tap I'm adding both at water changes. I have an auto doser - a salvage 2-channel IV infusion pump. Any con's if I combine the CaCl2 and /or the MgSO4 with either of my stock solutions and would there be any pro's other than convenience?

Pat


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi pat w,

It has been a very long time since I was a Chemistry major. I believe that the calcium in CaCl will bind with the sulfate ions (SO4) in a macro solution creating the precipitant (solid) CaSO4 so I would not mix the CaCl solution with the macros. As for the micros; it would depend on what chemicals Plantex is using to supply the Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, and zinc in the Nutritrace (CSM) they manufacture. The "B" (Boron) is added by a "Third Party" and who knows what form of Boron they are adding?


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

Ok ... I'll just stick to the once a week dosing for those. It just won't be worth the extra mixing.

Thanks
Pat


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## Ctenopoma (Jul 2, 2011)

Okay, I tried dosing in a bucket according to the calculations, but I must have some bizarrely high-quality powders (lab grade) because it was all off and I ended up just slowly adding little bits to the tank (no fish in it right now) until I got about 1 dGh with Mg, then brought it up to about 4 with Ca, and then about 5 dKH with NaHC03. I am using Kent Turbon Calcium (calcium chloride anhydrous) and a powdered magnesium sulfate that actually is not Epsom salts- just lab grade MgS04. So, hopefully that's sufficient to get me started!

I can totally see why one would opt for the Seachem Equilibrium; I just need to look at doing it on a massive scale so am taking this route.

Turned on the C02 today- exciting! Now I need to think about which fertilizers to add. I have Seachem's flourish stuff available to me- so the regular additive, potassium, phosphate, and nitrogen. I have a feeling I won't be needing iron right away because of the new substrate which is pure fluorite...

I think eventually I'd be able to use Potassium nitrate powder and the Plantex trace stuff you guys are recommending, and hopefully get phosphate from the fish food? A lot of the plant tanks will end up being fairly heavily stocked... but maybe with the C02 that still won't be enough phosphate for the plants? Thoughts?


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## farrenator (Dec 21, 2008)

I can't help you with the dosing side of things but you may want to think about building a CO2 reactor instead of using a diffuser for your 90 gallon. I 'believe' they are more efficient at dissolving CO2. The reactors are super easy to build and you can put them on the output side of your canister filter. Tons of people use a PVC style one that was popularized by Rex Grigg but I am using one that is based on a water filter housing. If you do a search on this forum for a 'cerges' style reactor you should pull up some relevant pages. Ditto for searching under the name rex grigg and reactor. Good luck with your project!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Ctenopoma,

LOL! I like the K.I.S.S. method. I realize that you have extensive knowledge in the hobby, however since you are just starting out with planted tanks I am going to suggest you what I recommend to others. It is also what worked for me when I started. I dosed with Seachem Flourish Comprehensive per the instructions on the bottle and adjusted my photoperiod to allow healthy plant growth and minimize algae. Once I determined a good photoperiod, they I eventually started using dry ferts but my photoperiod is still pretty much the same.


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## Ctenopoma (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks Farrenator, I'm trying the diffuser because of my K.I.S.S. approach (Thanks S_A) and I read that C02 mist could be as or more effective as dissolved stuff. So far it seems to be lowering my pH as expected (from 7.4 before C02 on to 6.5 with it rockin' and rollin'. I have no fish in it right now and trying to crank it up to get the plants really going, but eventually I'll shoot for about 6.8-7.0) and the drop checker is turning green, so I'll stick with it for now. Besides, the filtration is an internal canister.

Seattle_Aquarist, I've got a 10 hour photoperiod at the moment, which seems to be what I think Tom Barr suggested. I've dosed the flourish comprehensive, potassium, phosphate, and nitrogen as per instructions, so, now I guess I just wait and see what happens! 

Thanks for the advice everyone.


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