# The missing factor???!!!



## Jaap (Jun 24, 2005)

ok people,

I have:

1. pH 6.8
2. kH 5
3. 5 ppm nitrate
4. 20 ppm potassium
5. Have not added magnesium
6. Have not added phosphate
7. 75 watts fluorescent lights over a 30 gallon tank
8. Trace elements added by adding Tropiflora (Tetra)
9. 2 mollies so I guess phosphates added by feeding

The tank has a very old substrate. The plants are not doing well and more specificaly Valisneria isn't growing fast and has yellow leaves. Also alot of green hair algae. I am using the EI method...

What is the limiting factor?
How do I know how much of the stuff I added is being used so as to add more?
Will I see a difference the next day so I can see its working?


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## fish7days (Jul 30, 2005)

Co2 ?


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## Jaap (Jun 24, 2005)

fish7days said:


> Co2 ?


a kH of 5 and a pH of 6.8 gives a co2 of 23.8 ppm


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

hadjici2 said:


> What is the limiting factor?


How much NO3, PO4, and Traces are you actually adding to the tank??? Before we can figure out which is limiting, it would help to know how much you are adding. Your NO3 levels are low and you don't tell us about the PO4 at all.



hadjici2 said:


> Will I see a difference the next day so I can see its working?


Probably not, it may take anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks to see a difference in the tank.


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## Jaap (Jun 24, 2005)

MatPat said:


> How much NO3, PO4, and Traces are you actually adding to the tank??? Before we can figure out which is limiting, it would help to know how much you are adding. Your NO3 levels are low and you don't tell us about the PO4 at all.


I do not dose PO4.

My tank diary:

12 Aug 04 - Added DIY CO2, added one teaspoon bicarbonate soda, kH from 4 is now 5, pH is 6.8 - 7
Effect: none

13 Aug 04 - Added 5 ml from a KNO3 mixture (4 teaspoons in 120 ml gives 1 ppm nitrate per ml) thus added 5 ppm of nitrate
Added 1 teaspoon Epsom Salt thus added 4.69 ppm Magnesium
Effect: bubles underneath leaves indicate photosynthesis

14 Aug 04 - Added 35 ml of K2SO4 mixture (8 teaspoons K2SO4 in 400 ml gives 0.47 ppm per ml)
Effect: bubles underneath leaves indicate photosynthesis

15 Aug 04 - Added 5 ml of Microplex mixture (1 tablespoon Microplex in 250 ml of water)
Effect: bubles underneath leaves indicate photosynthesis but now at a lower rate

16 Aug 04 - Added 5 ml from a KNO3 mixture 
Lowered the lights
pH 7
Effect: cannot see fast growth but leaves of plants are shiny

17 Aug 04 - Added 35 ml of K2SO4 mixture

18 Aug 04 - Nothing done
Effect: Hair algae

19 Aug 04 - CO2 is running out of ingredients so pH increase thus less CO2
Effect: Hair algae

20 Aug 04 - Added another bottle of CO2
50 % water change
Added 35 ml of K2SO4 mixture 
Added 4 ml from a KNO3 mixture (4 instead of 5 ml so as to account for the nitrate produced by fish in the tank)
Effect: none seen

21 Aug 04 - Added Tropiflora
Effect: yellowish leaves, tank may even seem worse


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

You cannot make assumptions on cause and effect as quickly as you want to. The 'result' you have observed on the day you did something probably isn't the result of what you did. As MatPat said, it will take longer. 

NO3 at 5 is, IMO, too low. First, you're assuming your test kit is real good to be reading that low accurately. Secondly, it stands close to bottoming out. Why risk it?

You assume 2 mollies will provide plenty of PO4 for your tank. WRONG. Unless your tap water has it, you need to add it. 

If your KH is 4 out of the tap, why are you adding bicarb to raise it? Increasing your KH doesn't increase your CO2. A KH of 4 is considered almost ideal for CO2 enriched tanks. 

You need to be sure your diy CO2 provides as steady as possible a CO2 amount. As you have discovered, you need to have a couple of bottles going and change one of them every couple of weeks. 

I can't comment on Tropiflora because I am not familiar with it.


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm no expert but here's a link that talks about deficiency's: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm including yellowing on plants. I'd second what Bert said too. Is this a new problem? New tank? How old are your bulbs? I have read that regular flourescents can really drop in light ouput after a year so that's another possibility............

Good luck & keep us posted,
Bill


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

EI is based on the principles of having an EXCESS of plant nutrients not a minimum. I would strongly suggest you increase your NO3 dosing and try to keep it in the 10-20ppm range. Start adding PO4 also to get it around 1-2ppm. Don't worry for now about how much the fish MAY be contributing to the tank and just add it yourself! 

Try adding your KNO3 and PO4 on the same day, 3x a week. Add your micros on days opposite the KNO3 and PO4 dosing. If you add KNO3 and KH2PO4 to your tank you more than likely can stop adding the K2SO4.

Try this schedule, add your KNO3 and PO4 on Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays. Add your micros on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Sit back, relax and enjoy the tank on Saturdays. When Sunday comes, prune the plants, do a 50% water change and follow the above schedule again  

Consistency will go far in producing a nice tank for you. Find a dosing routine and a CO2 change out routine and stick with it. 

Change out your CO2 before the pH starts to rise. A stable CO2 level is what the plants need, not a lot on one day and less the next. Maybe add a second DIY bottle and change them out on opposite weeks so you always have a strong DIY CO2 solution going. 

Hair algae is the result of something low, CO2, NO3, or PO4.


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## Rub (Jul 14, 2005)

*Mat Pat said:*


> Hair algae is the result of something low, CO2, NO3, or PO4.


OK Mat

Very good routine, but I have two questions (or doubts  ) for you:
1- You said:


> Try adding your KNO3 and PO4 on the same day, 3x a week


.....then.......if NPK = 10-1-20 ppm , must I add this amount 3 times a week????? or I must distribute it?????
2- Why do you add micros (Fe mainly) when you dont add NPK??????

Greetings


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Rub said:


> Very good routine, but I have two questions (or doubts  ) for you:
> 
> 1- You said:.....then.......if NPK = 10-1-20 ppm , must I add this amount 3 times a week????? or I must distribute it?????


I will try to clarify...I was telling him to try and keep his NO3 in the range of 10 to 20ppm since it seems a bit too low at 5ppm. I did not suggest a ratio of 10-1-20.

In order to keep his NO3 in the 10 to 20ppm range, he may have to add 5-7ppm of NO3 three times a week along with a sufficient amount of KH2PO4.



Rub said:


> 2- Why do you add micros (Fe mainly) when you dont add NPK??????


I did tell him to add macros 3x a week. There is potassium (K) in KNO3 and KH2PO4 and he shouldn't need to add K2SO4 with the amount of K in the other two fertilizers.

So, KNO3 and KH2PO4 (NPK) are added 3x a week on Sun. Tues. and Thurs. and Micros are added 3x a week on Mondays, Wednesday, and Friday.


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## Rub (Jul 14, 2005)

Hey Mat!!! thanks for your answer.
Matpat said:


> I did not suggest a ratio of 10-1-20.


 Ok, but the NPK "ratio" 10-1-20 was an example  . 
Sorry but you dont reply my cuestion ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ............Can you say me: why do you dose micros the days when you dont add NPK??????.....in others words: NPK on Sun-Tues-Thu. Why do you add micros on Mo-We-Fry??????? Is not good add micros whith you add NPK??????? 
Do you understand me?????? ahhhh my english!!!!!!!!!!  
The last question (...when you come to Granada I will invite you to a beer; I promise you    ):
You said that:


> In order to keep his NO3 in the 10 to 20ppm range, he may have to add 5-7ppm of NO3 three times a week along with a sufficient amount of KH2PO4.


In this case, how much KH2PO4 for each 5-7ppm NO3?????
Thank you and greetings


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Rub said:


> Can you say me: why do you dose micros the days when you dont add NPK??????.....in others words: NPK on Sun-Tues-Thu. Why do you add micros on Mo-We-Fry??????? Is not good add micros whith you add NPK???????
> Do you understand me?????? ahhhh my english!!!!!!!!!!


Ahhh, now I understand. It has been suggested that mixing phosphate and iron can cause the iron to precipitate out of solution and not be available for the plants. I'm not really sure if this is the case but that is why I dose micros on days opposite macros

Don't worry about your English. It is definately better than my non English. Be happy you are able to type in more than one language!!!



Rub said:


> The last question (...when you come to Granada I will invite you to a beer; I promise you    ):


If I ever make it to Grenada, I will take you up on that offer!!!



Rub said:


> In this case, how much KH2PO4 for each 5-7ppm NO3?????


Hmm, I never pay attention to ratios much. I usually add between 0.5ppm and 1ppm of PO4 (depending on which tank, slow growing or fast growing) when I add the KNO3! My tanks usually have between 10-15 ppm of KNO3 and 2+ppm of PO4. My kit only goes to 2ppm so I don't know how high it really is.

If I need to explain more, just ask


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## Rub (Jul 14, 2005)

I understand now Mat. 
Thanks once again.
Greetings


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