# other methods of getting rid of GDA?



## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

I got my 1st attack of GDA in august. 
I let it run its course (25 days), scraped it off the glass and hoovered it off the gravel, done 2 50% water changes.
2 days later it was back.

I let it run its course again, scraped it off the glass and hoovered it off the gravel, done 4 50% water changes.
Subsequent to the water changes, I lost my 2 clown loaches that I've had for around 10yrs, and 3 rosy tetras. :x 
2 days later the GDA was back.

I've now left the GDA for 17 days.
The advice I've been given now is to do 3 x 80% water changes followed by a 3-day blackout..
This may (or more probably) may not get rid of the GDA, but it's sure getting rid of my fish.

This method doesn't seem to be having an effect on the GDA and the shock of so many large and frequent water changes is stressing my fish to death. A parrot fish that was given to me has been mostly on its back since the last lot of water changes and seems to be near-death and the majority of the other fish look none too happy either.

Since mid-august I've only had clear glass for about 3 days which does detract from the pleasure of keeping tropicals.
Whilst I don't want to use chemicals to kill the algae, the consequences of letting the GDA run its course method is killing the fish anyway, so can anyone help with an alternative method please?? ](*,) 

Thanks
Pete

54x18x24" tank
Pressurised CO2 bringing pH down from 7.7 to 6.5 (only when lights are on)
3 x 36w Triton tubes (12 hrs/day)
2 x 150W metal halide lamps (10 hrs/day)
Eheim 2217 canister filter
Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter (with breather tube blocked)
Tom Barr's EI dosing method


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Why would water changes kill your fish? I have never seen the slightest bad effect to doing a big water change. Are you using a chloramine/chlorine remover each time you do a water change? What do you add to the water when you do a change?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I've always had good luck cleaning the glass, doing a water change, and putting a Diatom Filter on the tank. I keep the diatom filter running for a couple of days and clean the glass with an algae magnet when I start to notice any buildup on the glass. This worked well for me in mid September with a new tank setup and the GDA has not come back yet.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks Guys

I use Azoo Aqua Guard as a dechlorinator etc. Then later in the day I add EI as recommended.

I can only guess that the frequent large water changes are stressing the fish.
Having kept tropicals for 30+yrs, it's only since i've been doing large frequent changes that the fish are dying and appear stressed.
I'm not aware of any other variable unless there's something wrong with the EI dosing for which I use Nutri-calc.

Thnaks
Pete


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

Pete, I'm sorry to hear about your fish! I do have a couple questions though... how much water do you normally change (not the recent GDA related changes), and how often? Have you had any foul-smelling gas bubbles come up from the substrate when you do a water change? Do you have a really efficient CO2 diffuser and keep it on when you do the water change? (and therefore get way too much co2 in the tank when the water level is low?) Sorry... I'm know I'm really reaching here with my questions... but water changes, even large ones, shouldn't stress the fish that much if the new water isn't significantly different from the old water and there isn't something else going on. I've even had neon tetras breeding as I was refilling the tank.

On to the algae... I'm also having a problem with GDA right now, and even though I don't know _exactly_ how many days I'm at in my second attempt at the 'run it's course' method, I know I'm a little over a month. The two things I've noticed since I decided to not scrape the glass for a while are: 1) my snails are happy. even after a month, there's been no die-off of the algae and the tracks the snails make are back to thick green in two days, and 2) now the GDA is starting to grow on my plants (which it never did before). So far, this method doesn't seem to be working for me either.

I'm not ready to blame the fertilizing method just yet, but I will say that the GDA really took off when I switched to EI (within 2 days my glass went green). Since then, I've been having to scrape the glass at least once a week if I want to see into my tank. Something else I've noticed over the last 6 months or so is when I used supplemental lighting on my tank, the GDA came back much quicker than when I stopped using it. You might want to try cutting the MH's down to only 6 or 8 hours a day and see if that helps any.

I'm thinking about trying a few things soon, and if it works for me I'll let you know. In the meantime, has anybody here that uses EI gotten rid of GDA for more than two weeks using the "run it's course" method?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I have gotten rid of it in the 29 gallon tank I had, but it took two "life cycle" tries to do it. The first time the plants were all covered with green fuzz, and, as I recall, all of the hardscape and equipment was covered too. The snails had a feast. When I finally wiped it off the glass the plants were largely free of the fuzz, and soon had none at all. It didn't come back over the next few months before I tore that tank down.

With my current 45 gallon tank, I completed a cycle last week, and in about a week I started to get a then haze of green again. I wiped that off today, to see if that was all I needed to do for now. I suspect a second cycle will be needed once again. I'm wondering if the UV idea might be a good one, but that will have to wait until next year before I want to spend the money on that. I like the thought of getting those little zoospores floating and swimming around, sucking them into a UV oven and roasting them!!


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

By the way, from what I can find out online about the Azoo Aqua Guard product, it seems that it only removes chlorine, not chloramine.

If your water utility has switched from chlorine to chloramine (and more and more utilities are doing so, even in Europe), then you need a new dechlorinator that breaks up chloramine AND removes/binds the resulting ammonia. Seachem's Prime does this very well and I think that JBLs dechlorinator does it as well.

Just another possibility as to why water changes may be harming your fish  ... I have never seen fish that stressed from water changes. If they are, something in the replacement water is not to their liking.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks again for your replies.

I'll trim back the MH to 8 hrs/day.
I usually do a 50% water change once a week, as per EI. I don't recall any H2SO4 coming from the gravel when I vac.
The CO2 is only on with the MH lamps, so it is not on when I do a water change.
I'll get a water conditioner that treats chloramine, I vaguely recall our supplier changed to chloramine a few yrs ago, so that could be a cause.
I use 2 aqua medic reactors (AM 500) to disolve and distribute the CO2 into the tank.
I was also advised to use a full dose of Excel alongside EI dosing, which I have been doing.
I've got the CO2 running to max, any more and the fish gasp at the surface.

I suppose that the question I really need to ask is - 
Is there an algicide that can be recommended to get rid of the GDA?
If the Tom Barr method relies on the GDA completing its cycle, then by the end of the cycle the GDA and its associated zoospores are (in theory) dead, right?
So why not use an algicide which will also kill the GDA and any floating zoospores?
It may or may not work, but the 'let it complete its life-cycle' hasn't worked for me, so I'm looking for an alternative.

As I mentioned in my 1st post, I'm now at day 19 of the cycle. As per usual, it's starting to die back.
Should I follow the advice given on another BB and do 3 x 80% water changes in a row followed by a 3-day blackout.
As I have a heavily planted tank, I would imagine that doing an 80% change will leave the fish with barely any 'free' water to swim in.

It seems to me that all this water changing etc etc is a lot of hard work. I get 1 day off a week and I spend about 4 hrs of it in the fish tank.
It's becoming more of a lifestyle than a hobby. Coupled with the fact that since august the wall of green that is now my tank looks hideous.

The plants look fantastic BTW - you just have to admire them by looking in the top of the tank.

Your advice is much appreciated
Pete


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I certainly sympathize with you about the horror of GDA. The first time it hit me about 6 months ago I was really enjoying my tank, and losing that pleasure for almost three weeks was depressing. One thing I am learning is that GDA is very much dependent on light to grow. The 45 gallon tank I have now does not provide any light to the upper half of the front glass, due to location of the lights in the hood. No GDA grows there, nor does it grow in the shadow of the equipment in the tank. I keep wondering if I were to cut my lighting from 2.4 watts per gallon to about 2 watts per gallon, changing from 110 watts to 90 watts, would that greatly reduce my exposure to GDA?

Algaecides seem to be copper based poisons. So, I question that using one could have more benefits than detriments. And, it isn't necessary that the GDA die before wiping it off the glass, only that it not be in the zoospore form, where it can swim to a new location and restart. Once it is out of that phase of its life when you disturb it on the glass it should just drop to the substrate, where it doesn't do well at all.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

Cheers hoppy

This afternoon I called an aquatic store I often buy from. Speaking to the guy I know best I explained my situation.
He repeated the life-cycle method, I said it hadn't worked 3 times.
I asked if it may be that my 10/12 gourami may be the cause as they constantly peck at the algae on the glass.
I imagine each peck will loosen a few zoospores and the cycle never gets a chance to complete.

He suggested I try eSHa PROTALON-707 - and although I can't remember buying it, I had some in the back of the cupbaord.
He said it's very easy on plants and has heard good reports from customers, so I bit the bullet and dosed it.

I'm tempted to get a UV filter, as if my assumption about the gourami is correct, then UV hopefully will kill the swimming zoospores.

I'll post an update iin a few days as to progress...

Thanks & best wishes
Pete


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I tried a google search on that product. There doesn't seem to be any information out there about just what the product is. But, the two solution dosing schedule they give hints that it is just a bottle of macros and a bottle of trace elements. In other words, it "works" by fertilizing the plants. They admit that it works very slowly, just as adding ferts would do. Personally I question adding something to the tank with absolutely no information as to what it is.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

I done likewize. Found lots of recommendations, but no info on what it contains.
Time will tell, and I post back re. progress (or otherwize!).

Do you have any views on my thoughts as to the gourami causing a 're-infestation' ?

Thanks
Pete


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

I was wondering what the ingredients are too... more than a year ago I tried something called AlgaeFix -- active ingredient is listed as Poly(oxyethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene (dimethyliminio)ethylene dichloride) -- that says it's safe for fish and live plants and it worked wonders on green water that I had not been able to get rid of. I'm not sure how effective it was against GDA (at that time I didn't even realize there was a difference between GDA and GSA). It did however, 'burn' some of my plants and cause every bit of my Micranthemum umbrosum to turn to mush. Despite that, I've been considering using it again just because I'm SO tired of fighting this GDA. I'm still planning on trying a few other things first though.

About the UV -- After I tore down this tank and changed the substrate, I had a UV sterilizer in my aquarium for a few weeks. For me anyway, it didn't seem to keep the GDA down much, if at all. It's great for preventing or clearing up green water because that type of algae never attaches. With GDA, spores can be produced and attach at different sites without ever passing through the UV. Every aquarium is different though, and it may be useful in some.

I'm trying my hardest not to get into the reasoning behind the so-called "life-cycle" method, but your gourami question brought up one of my problems with that reasoning. If the tank is stocked with ANYTHING, there will always be places that present new sites for zoospore attachment (new leaves, places that snails or fish have cleared, heck, even gravel that's been turned over). There's no possible way to avoid this in a living aquarium. If the method *requires* there to be _absolutely no new attachment sites_ (don't scratch any of it off, etc) during the waiting part in order to work, it wouldn't _ever_ work.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The life-cycle method doesn't work by avoiding new attachment sites, but by not dislodging the existing spores, so they don't swim around looking for new sites. My infestation is back again, after the first 3 week cycle and wiping it off, then wiping off the faint haze after a few days. I think I will let it go another 3 weeks and see if a double cycle works again. I think the jury is still out on just how effective this is. But, no other method I tried had any effect at all.

I asked Tom Barr about the "gourami eating the stuff" problem right after he recommended this method. He felt there would be no effect from fish or snails eating the stuff. I still have only a rudimentary understanding of how the method should work, so I can't really figure out what might be wrong if it doesn't work. I am leaning towards the idea that you really need to let the algae die on the glass - about a month maximum, rather than scraping it off when it seems to be nearing the end of its life cycle.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

As I understand it, the GDA must be left alone for x days to complete its cycle.
I have much respect for Tom Barr, and he has helped me on many occasions. In a recent post he told me that if I do any work whatsoever in the tank then I must do a water change - here's his reply- 

Make sure to do a water change after any work on the tank, if you work on the tank and then don't do any water changes, GW, GDA etc can come back easily.

Regards, 
tom Barr
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So why is it fine for the gourami to disloge bits of algae 24x7, but if I disloge a bit then I have to do a water change..... makes no sense to me!

I could understand it working in a no-fish environment, but when you've got fish continually pecking at the stuff I can't see how it could work.
Or am I missing something?

The 1st time I had a GDA attack I left it for 25 days - it looked a horrible mess, thick dark brown patches of the stuff peeling off. But as soon as some peeled off - the glass started to go green almost immediately.

Pete


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I know I mentioned towards the beginning of this thread, but a diatom filter worked very well for me in the past. I just keep it running on the tank and for a couple of days, every time I go by the tank, I clean the glass and let the filter remove the suspended particles. Since I have several large tanks, a diatom filter (actually a HOT Magnum) was a "justified" expense for me, especially since it was only about $50. That to me was a price worth paying to clean up GDA and GW in my tanks 

It was a simple solution in my case and I didn't have to look at the green glass for more than a day or so. I have also successfully beaten back GDA by lowering both my light intensity and duration. I hve to admit, I don't have enough discipline to to wait 3 weeks for the GDA to go away...kudos to those of you who have to patience to try this method!


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

I've spent some time searching for a diatom filter in the UK but have found none!
Except for 1 on ebay, but I can't find supplies for it.
Hey ho

Pete


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## LindaC (Nov 7, 2005)

I had GDA in both my 29 gallon and my 10 gallon tank. I first tried letting it run it's course in my 10 gallon tank and let it go for two weeks without cleaning the glass. Once it got to the point where it started to look fuzzy and cake like, I did a 60% water change, cleaned the glass and it has never returned. That was over a month ago. I then did the same on my 29 gallon and so far, fingers crossed, it hasn't come back, that was about 2 weeks ago. I too had brown patches on top of the green, it was very disgusting.

There is one thing that I stopped doing and that was supplementing the light on both of my tanks. I found that when I added the extra light on my 29 gallon, even for just two hours, the GDA came back twice as bad. I now just run one 65 watt light over my 29 gallon and it does not seem to be coming back. It is obvious that the extra light contributes to it's growth but how much I do not know.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it is, I dealt with it in my 29 gallon for a couple of months and this tank sits right in my living room for everyone to see, it wasn't a pretty sight.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

tropism: I had the same experience w/ the UV sterilizer not doing anything (13w on my 55g) didn't help in reducing the GDA.

My Vortex diatom filter didn't make any appreciable difference either, even working at the same time as the UV light.

I agree w/ LindaC on the lighting. It seems that when the lighting is particularly strong GDA goes crazy. And in fact that is how i got rid of it, I reduced the lighting from 220w to 110 (over the 55), reduced lighting time from 11 hrs to 9 and then added 9 otto cats. 

The algae died back pretty fast, it hung around the top 1/3rd of the tank for about a week or so, but then it eventually gave up the ghost. The ottos seemed to love eating the stuff.

PeteInEssex: maybe its different for a gourami b/c it might eat the algae, vs your hand which just dislodges pieces that have to reattach somewhere else.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks LindaC and Zapins.
I think it's quite well documented that GDA is associated with high-light tanks. Until August of this year I'd been keeping tropicals for 30+ yrs in low-light conditions and never had GDA - not once!
In a way i'm releived that UV/Diatom filters don't contribute much to ridding the tank of GDA - I've already spent a fortune on the tank this year.

Since I added the eSHa PROTALON-707 on wednesday, the GDA is thinning out quickly. It doesn't appear to have died as there are very few brown bits, rather it's getting thinner and I can now see fish and plants through the GDA.
Still too early to know if it's going to work, but so far so good..

Many thanks for your continued help

Pete


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Just an update on my GDA episode: (Act 2, scene 2)
I left the algae completely alone for about 18-20 days, uncertain because it is hard to know what the exact starting time was. Then I drained out about 75% of the water, used paper towels to carefully wipe off as much as I could on all four glass sides. Then I used a razor scraper to scrape off the rest, wiping the goo off the scraper before it could drip each pass of it. Then I refilled the tank, and again drained 75% of the water, followed by more wiping of the sides. I also "fluffed" the plants down near the substrate to try to drain off anything that was clinging there. I refilled it again, added 1.5X dose of Excel, based on the dose for post water changes. I shut off the CO2 system and the lights, draped 4 thicknesses of black garbage bag on the tank, and left it alone for 3 days. Today, I unwrapped it. Everything had survived. So, I again drained about 60% of the water, used paper towels to again wipe all glass surfaces, trying to get every last bit of algae, even at the substrate-water line. I refilled it and again drained about 60% of the water, wiped it again. Then I switched my filter setup from a powerhead with sponge, to a H.O.T. Magnum, with the same filter sponge on it's inlet. I refilled the tank, added 1.5X dosage of Excel, full EI fert dosage, with the CSM+B delayed by 3 hours. The tank looks beautiful, for now. Tomorrow I plan to again drain 60% and refill and redose Excel and ferts. Then, I will be watching to see how it does this time. My light timer is now set for only 8 hours, with the CO2 coming on an hour early and off an hour early.


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## SnyperP (Dec 10, 2004)

It sounds like you've pulled out all the stops this round and bringing full on armaggedon down on that algae!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

SnyperP said:


> It sounds like you've pulled out all the stops this round and bringing full on armaggedon down on that algae!


No. I'm keeping the dynamite in reserve.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

Well, if that routine doesn't clear it nothing will.

I used Protalon 707 a few weeks ago.
I think you're right hoppy, it's likely to be a fert of some kind because the plants are growing like crazy.
I had a very small patch of ROTALA MACRANDRA which has turned into a jungle - it's everywhere. There's hardly an inch of gravel to be seen in the tank now, the plants have taken over.

By the time I'd completed the first dosing routine (which takes 7 days) the GDA was brown and very thin on the glass. Then I done a 75% water change and it started coming back, presumably because of the dilution of the 707.
So I restarted with 707 last wednesday after doing a 75% water change.
As at today, there is a very slight film of GDA, but rater than being green, it's more of a pale brown, it's hardly noticable.
All the hair algae has completely disappeared from the plants.
I've emailed the manufacturers of 707 to ask how I should dose after doing a water change - they haven't replied yet..
I'm continuing EI dosing and adding a full dose of Excel every day.

I just don't have the time or inclination to follow the sort of routine that you've been following hoppy - kudos to you! 
keep us posted!

Pete


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

PeteInEssex said:


> Well, if that routine doesn't clear it nothing will.
> 
> I just don't have the time or inclination to follow the sort of routine that you've been following hoppy - kudos to you!
> keep us posted!
> ...


I doubt that any of us would be willing to do such a routine more than once. I am pretty sure wont ever try it again. Maybe if I get GDA two years from now, but not before. The tank still looks pristine this morning - knock on wood - fingers crossed. Later this afternoon the next water change wipedown begins.

I blush to mention this, but I left the hood on the tank when I did the blackout with plastic bags. The hood got very wet from condensation, warped, and hasn't yet dried completely. The little fan in the end also got wet, and now sounds like a coffee grinder as it runs. Tip for the day: Don't seal up a tank with plastic with any water sensitive stuff in there.


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

Glad you mentioned about the hood!
I was thinkning about a blackout as a last resort and I have a laminated hood on my tank - something to bear in mind...

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Pete


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## PeteInEssex (Jul 29, 2006)

I completed treatment with Protalon 707 on 15th and cleaned the glass.
Usually I'd have a coat of GDA by now, and whilst there is a very slight film on the glass, it's not green, but a pale brown colour - hardly noticable.
All the hair algae has vanished, there's just a few spots of some sort of algae on a few leaves, but that's all.

Having let the GDA run its course so many times only to reappear within hours, I'm hoping that it may be on its way out without having to perform 300 back-to-back water changes  .

During treatment I continued dosing as per EI, but stopped EI dosing after the first week (my test kit showed NO3 at 110mg/L !) and haven't done a water change to allow the Protalon to continue working. I've added trace mix every other day and kept up dosing with a full dose of Excel every other day.

Fish seem happy and plants are still growing like crazy....

Time will tell....

Pete


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

My tank still seems totally free of GDA, and is as beautiful as I have ever had it. At this point I don't care which part of what I did was the most effective, I'm just thankful that it worked.


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