# When a NPT aquarium becomes toxic with NH3/NH4 over 1miligram/liter



## Hobbylifeandpets (Mar 13, 2018)

Hello,

I'm relativ new to NPT aquariums and plants, to make long story short, i have a around 20 aquariums with fish big small , was looking for a easy way to keep many tanks less work >> found out about El Natural >> read Diana's book and now set a cople of aquariums and plastic tanks to test and I have the problem all its ok for 2-3 months with fish/shrimp and then boom NH3/NH4 over 1miligram/liter .

To describe the situation:
in all tanks was used 2cm (1inch) dirt (found ecological dirt online for cheap price) and 2cm (1inch) gravel

1. 10 liter smal tank - vallisneria spiralis, some egeria densa, and duckweed, 20 cherry shrimp and 10 fry of endlers(now full grown)no filter, 2 months with livestock the parameters were ok, water change 50% once a month, after that vallisneria and duckweed took over the tank after that shrimp begin to die, did 50% water change every 24hours, for a week but all the shrimp die, endlers didn't have any stress, all NH3/NH4 over 1miligram/liter , after that I left the aquarium alone to see were is going, now 2 mounth from that event the endlers are full grown and starting to breed all test are ok but NH3/NH4 around 1miligram/liter, I introduce 2-3 rcs to see last week and they died after 2 days. I feed the fish once a day what I can take with 2 fingers.

2. same 10 liter tank - vallisneria spiralis, some egeria densa, and duckweed and some sagittaria subulata, for livestock 10 yellow neon cherry shrimp(this was at the same time with the tank above so i didn't know what to expect) no filter, here after the vallisneria spiralis was half way to water surface and duckweed cover all aquarium shrimp started to die and moved 4 of them to other of my tanks, i removed all the duckweed(a hard thing to do, when you think you removed all u find some more poping out) thinking that is the problem, and put Riccia fluitans as a surface plant, and introduced some daphnia(alive and kicking aftera mounth) and now for a few days 3 rcs that seem to be fine, NH3/NH4 is under 0.5miligram/liter, i didn't give them any food yet, I see them nimble on plants/substrate all the time wich is a normal behavior.

3. like every other year i put some big plastic tanks outside for tests 3 40 liters, 1 60liter and 2 130liters, set up in same way with same plants a 40liter and 60liter had and a smal sponge filter with and air pump, all tanks had daphnia, 4 hours of full sun and the rest of day in shade of a bush.
I have some photos
https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_1425040527b772.md.jpg

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_14270391032f6b.md.jpg

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_142658932806e5.md.jpg

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_14260468086dde.md.jpg

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_1424369863ef41.md.jpg

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_14283895048966.md.jpg

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/07/16/IMG_20180715_143037718df5b1.md.jpg

In the 60liter tank i put a hoarde of rcs and 10 amano shrimps after 20 day it became a jungle in there and after 2 weeks same thing, all daphnia died, and shrimps started to die, and NH3/NH4 over 1miligram/liter , sunday I teared down the tank and took all the shrimp out.
Here are 2 videos of the 20 liter tank outside with before and after 20 days, the date shown on camera is wrong I dont know to set up yet:











To make a bottom line that I think is:
-when duckweed starts to spread covers the light low or no growth
-when vallisneria covers all substrate same thing

Any of you experiance something similar?
Will be any resolve to mix other slow growing plants?
Other ideas?

I will try to set up a other aquarium with sagittaria subulata, egeria, hygrophila and Riccia fluitans or european frogbite to se haow it does.

Thank you!

PS:sorry if there is any misspelling, but English it's not native language


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC! Unfortunately I don't know what is wrong with your tanks. Have you tested your tap water? Could that be the source of the nitrite and ammonium?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Check if there is nothing wrong with your NH4 test kit. Test it on regular tap water. It shouldn't read 1ppm.

You would see stress on the fish too. Maybe it's another contaminant like heavy metals.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

mistergreen said:


> Check if there is nothing wrong with your NH4 test kit. Test it on regular tap water. It shouldn't read 1ppm.


That's a good idea, I would also test the NH4 test kit first.
I don't know why your RCS had an issue, normally I find those spreading like crazy in my NPTs.

Did you also test for NO2, NO3? Are those OK?

Are you sure that the soil you used did not contain *artificial fertilizers*?

For example there is a DAP (Dissimilatory Ammonium Production) process described in the Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, page 66.

This can happen is some sediments, generates Ammonium from Nitrates.
But normally sediments supposed to help remove ammonia from the watercolumn (page 64).


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I looked at your two videos. (I will only comment on them.)

The problem with the outdoor tubs is excessive aeration. All that bubbling and water mixing has driven off the CO2 and killed the plants. Their roots are rotting and decomposing in the soil substrate. That rotting plant matter has driven up the ammonia.

My outdoor tubs have no aeration or water mixing. Plants and guppies in them are doing fine since I took this photo in May 2018.

Folks, let this be a lesson. If you have to use aeration at all, gentle is the word! Otherwise, you drive off the CO2, plants can't grow, and you get a mess of rotting plants, ammonia, and dead animals.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

*Aeration is for the weak -_-*

_*plz dont roast me im just joking*_


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## Hobbylifeandpets (Mar 13, 2018)

Hello again,



Michael said:


> Welcome to APC! Unfortunately I don't know what is wrong with your tanks. Have you tested your tap water? Could that be the source of the nitrite and ammonium?


I do waterchanges 50% once a week on my other aquariums with cherry shrimp/ crayfish/ small and big fish for months and they are fine and shrimp are breading like crazy.



mistergreen said:


> Check if there is nothing wrong with your NH4 test kit. Test it on regular tap water. It shouldn't read 1ppm.
> 
> You would see stress on the fish too. Maybe it's another contaminant like heavy metals.


I use test kit from sera, next week I'll buy 2 diferent test kits just to be shure maybe its something else.
I olso have a 3 stage filter just for water that goes in aquariums and small ponds outside, 1st stage removes all particals bigger then 5 micrones, 2nd stage removes alot of nasty stuff like pesticide/hevy metals/ clorine/oils/soup/gas ... , and 3rd stage removes anything bigger then 0.9 micrones but more importantly removes Aluminum Sulfate(its used u clear muddy water, it kills fish in few hours) wich we get in our tap water when heavy rain is in our area or nearby mountains.



zolteeC said:


> Did you also test for NO2, NO3? Are those OK?
> Are you sure that the soil you used did not contain *artificial fertilizers*?


In tank I test for all NH3/NH4, NO2,NO3 and NO2=0 in all tanks and NO3=10mg/liter wich is low, I get alarmed when I see NO3=50mg/liter
The only fertilizer that I use is the artificial light 



dwalstad said:


> I looked at your two videos. (I will only comment on them.)
> 
> The problem with the outdoor tubs is excessive aeration. All that bubbling and water mixing has driven off the CO2 and killed the plants. Their roots are rotting and decomposing in the soil substrate. That rotting plant matter has driven up the ammonia.
> 
> ...


I didn't think that bubbling woud make so much diference, the rest of the small ponds are very ok, only one of them has the same filter.
I will try to adjust diy the out take of bubbling saw some interesting modification on youtube.
What is the name of that floating plant that looks like parsley in your ponds?



DutchMuch said:


> *Aeration is for the weak -_-*
> 
> _*plz dont roast me im just joking*_


All my aquarium filters are on one big linear air pump .

Have 2 pictures of nr 2 10liter tank, all is going well, i didn't test, dapnia doing well, saw rcs but i dont know for shure that all 3 are alive, dificult to see in all that vallisneria.

https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/08/10/IMG_20180808_22532154566fa6.th.jpg
https://img.plici.ro/images/2018/08/09/IMG_20180808_225344642aaf32.jpg

Thank your for answers, I will keep updating how thing go on of existing and new projects .


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

Hobbylifeandpets said:


> I didn't think that bubbling woud make so much diference, the rest of the small ponds are very ok, only one of them has the same filter.
> I will try to adjust diy the out take of bubbling saw some interesting modification on youtube.


I'd still definitely consider the advice though . After all dwalstad is not new to this .

Of course there are no 100% guarantee that stopping the excess bubbling will solve all of your issues. On the other hand, I have never ever seen fish gasping in any of my NPTs. I do not use any air pump. The book mentions that freshly submerged soils may have higher O2 need, but even with new tanks I have not seen any issue that required air pump. (still, its good to have one around for emergencies...)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hobbylifeandpets said:


> I will try to adjust diy the out take of bubbling saw some interesting modification on youtube.
> What is the name of that floating plant that looks like parsley in your ponds?


Water sprite.


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## Hobbylifeandpets (Mar 13, 2018)

zolteeC said:


> I'd still definitely consider the advice though . After all dwalstad is not new to this .
> 
> Of course there are no 100% guarantee that stopping the excess bubbling will solve all of your issues. On the other hand, I have never ever seen fish gasping in any of my NPTs. I do not use any air pump. The book mentions that freshly submerged soils may have higher O2 need, but even with new tanks I have not seen any issue that required air pump. (still, its good to have one around for emergencies...)


I dont know if u are familiar with sponge filters, the advantaje its u can filter 10 - 20 or more aquariums with a single air pump if its good with low cost and energy efficiency


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

Hobbylifeandpets said:


> I dont know if u are familiar with sponge filters, the advantaje its u can filter 10 - 20 or more aquariums with a single air pump if its good with low cost and energy efficiency


Yeah, but the above comments were related to the videos that you posted.

There was clearly excess bubbling and water mixing in some of the tanks. This may drive CO2 out from the water. C is the MACRO that your plants most need. Remember, air-water CO2 equilibrium is only ~0.5 mg/l (24C). An NPT typically contains quite a bit of organic matter (i.e in soil, fish food) that may produce CO2 over time (microorganisms chewing on it etc). Why not let your plants harvest this CO2 instead of de-gasing your tank with excess bubbling and mixing?

By the way, I do have outdoor NPT guppy tanks and I have never ever seen fish gasping; no filter, no air pump, nothing just the glass.

I am not saying there are no cases when a little bit of air bubbling is needed, but in my NPT tanks its more like an exception than a norm. For example if there is a heavy floating plant cover, poor submersed plant growth, no water movement, warm weather, etc, then O2 can become a serious issue (especially for sensitive fish)?

If you filter your tank because you are worried about NH4+, then its good to know that most healthy growing plants have a preference for NH4-Nitrogen than other N sources.

By the way, the Vallisneria in one of your tanks look good to me. It looks like it gets enough sunlight even there is alot of duckweed (which is also a good "biofilter" ...).


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hobbylifeandpets said:


> I dont know if u are familiar with sponge filters, the advantaje its u can filter 10 - 20 or more aquariums with a single air pump if its good with low cost and energy efficiency


IMHO, you are putting way too much emphasis on pumps, filters, etc, etc. These should be used sparingly and mainly when there's a problem (e.g., fish gasping at surface). An NPT is more than just a tank with plants and a soil substrate. It requires an understanding of--*and a respect for*--aquarium plants and soil ecology. All those gadgets are sabotaging your plants and soil.

When you load a tank or tub up with filters and powerful aerators, you are ignoring the many benefits that plants provide, such as oxygenating the water, removing ammonia and CO2, neutralizing acidity, etc. More importantly, you are jeopardizing the well-being of your plants. Once plants start dying, they only add to water contamination problems. In your case, it looks like your tubs had a soil "meltdown."

Until you change your basic mindset, I don't think you'll have much luck with NPTs.


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## Tsin21 (Oct 12, 2017)

What is the ph & temperature of the tank? In relation to that, toxic ammonia (nh3) is converted to its less toxic form ammonium (nh4+) depending on the ph & temp. And the result of most test is the total ammonia (nh4+ & nh3).

Here's a table from another forum to calculate the actual ammonia levels:









And I fully agree with miss Diana & zolteeC, I also have outdoor NPT (tubs) and they haven't been a problem for me. The plants & shrimps there were doing great even without filters and aerators.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your tanks are very pretty. Love the guppies! 

It was my pleasure to see your message and the photos today.


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## Tsin21 (Oct 12, 2017)

Thanks miss Diana!


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## Hobbylifeandpets (Mar 13, 2018)

Hello I'm Back with a quetion
I'm seting up a new 50 liter aquarium with 1inch soil with 1 inch small gravel on top, te porpuse of aquarium is to keep fish in same aquarium without fighting, I put some plants in hygrophila(dont know what kind), sagittaria subulata, and riccia fluitans as floater plant, I have low water level so leaves of plant have acces to CO2 from air, when i see growth in sagittaria subulata I will slowly rise water level. I have to temporary Lamps till i make my own diy led lamp.
I have doubts ablout the sponge that I put in, I'm thinking of cuting in a thin lair or remove it, after the sponge will be a small power head with and a heater.

The reason behind this is that I'm moving  and have to restrict the number of heated aquariums (winter is comming) with fish that dont ge along.


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