# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Whitening & Yellowing leaves



## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

I'm newly converted to low tech tank. Don't have that many test kit yet, only thing I have is the ammonia and pH test kits. Not even sure if Singapore water is hard or soft!









The tetra and ram seems to be doing well. Only problem is quickening of breathing in the morning.

It is been about a week and I notice the whitening and yellowing of leaves.... Should I add salt to help the plants?


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## MyraVan (Feb 13, 2005)

I don't know what you *should* do in this situation, but one thing you definitely *shouldn't* do is add salt. It won't help your plans and will probably harm them.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Are the fish gasping for breath at the surface only in the morning? If so, then there might be too much CO2 in the water that accumulates overnight. You might want to try adding an airstone or some circulation at night... As for the color change in the plants, sorry, can't help you out there....

ricardo


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## fuddmain (Oct 6, 2005)

If you could give a few more details, someone may be able to give more specific advice.

How big is the tank?
How many fish are there?
What kind of plants and how many?
Water Temp.?
Do you use a water conditioner?
Do you add any chemicals or fertilizers?
Is there a filter? If so, what kind is it and what media does it contain?
What's your substrate composed of?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

How well does soap lather there?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Whitening and yellowing leaves and gasping fish.

I GOOGLED Singapore municiple water. Here's a FAQ on their <www.pub.gov.sq> website.

16. Can I use tap water for the fish in my home aquarium ? 
Singapore's water supply is treated to a quality that is well within the guidelines stipulated in the World Health Organisation (WHO) Guidelines for Drinking Water Quality. The Public Utilities Board (PUB) monitors the water quality to ensure that the water is safe for drinking at all times.

Our drinking water is disinfected by dosing chlorine during treatment processes. Chlorine is used internationally as a disinfecting agent in drinking water. The residual chlorine present in drinking water is in the form of free chlorine or chloramine. In this regard, hobbyists who manage their aquarium system at home may need to take extra precaution if they want to use fresh drinking water in their aquariums. This is because some types of fish may be sensitive to chlorine present in the drinking water.

Hobbyist groups such as the Koi Club (Singapore) host websites that contain advice on how to manage aquariums. The advice includes ways to maintain good water quality for fish, and precautionary measures to be taken when fresh tap water is used. The website at http://www.singaporekoiclub.com. provides useful information.

My last comments: Folks, you need to find out about chlorine and chloramine levels in your water supply before ever setting up a tank.

Singapore also is setting up a desalination program, so there you have another potential problem- high salt content.


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all your help







I feel like I'm not alone but have a team, in this whitening and yellowing leaves battle!

Dear fuddmain:
*Tank**Plants* is about 2 feet
Plants: Carolina Fanwort
Narrow Leaf Giant Hygro
Amazon Sword
Nana Anubias - leaves turning white and yellow
Tiger Lotus - Developing holes on the leaves and turning transparent.
Fish: 20 Tetra and 4 rams, 2 algae eater
Water cnditioner, chemicals or fertilizers not used
Canister for fiter.
Substrate is soil and gravel

Diana - Thanks for your advice and finding out the Singapore water!

Clorine should be gone already cos it has been alomost a week since we set up the tank.

So what is the practical steps to do to save the plants now??


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

If Chlorine and Chloramine are both high from the tap. What are the ways to treat the water before putting the plants and fish in? (maybe there's a page I can read in your book regarding this, will look through it tonight)











> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> Whitening and yellowing leaves and gasping fish.
> 
> My last comments: Folks, you need to find out about chlorine and chloramine levels in your water supply before ever setting up a tank.
> ...


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## medicineman (Sep 10, 2005)

I used to study in singapore and back then I kept some goldfish as pet. Usually I age the tap water for 3-4 nights before using it. One time our maid was cleaning the bathroom? I suspect she throwed away the water accidentally and filled the bucket back with new tap water. The evening after that, I changed water and killed all my fish! 
moral of the story is singapore tap water is not readily usable for fish keeping. They are processed potable water and contains all sorts of chemicals harmful to fish (and plants?). Chlorine is definately there... I could smell it whenever I pay a visit to Singapore. 

Whitening leaves and all sorts of unhealthiness
could be contributed by the lack of light (are they 2W/gallon or more and are of 6500-10,000K?) and lack of nutrition. You have to give some fertilization, especially if you are using plain gravel (pic looks like silica gravel, which is inert and unnutritious). Whitening leaves (turning colourless) might be contributed by the lack of trace elements, especially magnesium (chlorophyl is made of Mg). Stunted growth by macro elements. 
I use my own brew of NPK, KNO3, MgSO4 with the addition of Iron Plus micro elements from adec/niche (it is a Singapore brand) in a 2-3 days basis. Watch out the dosage, dont overfertilize and change water weekly (dont forget to age it for 3-4 nights and give a day aeration to get rid of harmful chlorine). I'm also new to planting and had the same problem for a while, figured out by the hard way and my tank in healing right now. Is it hygrohpylla difformis on the background? Mine was almost dead with leaves falling. Is is said to be a beginner's plant, but wrong treatment will kill it.

Gasping fish? too much CO2 in the tank? Lower your CO2 bubble rate. Is the filter current sufficient to exchange gas? but do not over strong current and water disturbance as it said to chase away useful CO2.


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## MyraVan (Feb 13, 2005)

I think that the Singapore top water should be OK for fish IF you use a water conditioner. The Singapore FAQ mentioned "The residual chlorine present in drinking water is in the form of free chlorine or chloramine." Chlorine will evaporate from your water, but chloramine won't, so you should use a water conditioner for that. (I use Tetra AquaSafe since that fully neutralizes chloramine as well as chrloine.)

I really can't help you with the yellowing leaves, but some of medicineman's advice wasn't really relevant: since your substrate is soil + gravel it should have plenty of nutrients. Also, about the fish gasping for breath in the morning: you aren't adding CO2, so the best way to get more O2/less CO2 in your tank over night is to have an airstone going at night (via a timer) or increase the filter flow at night.

Also, could you make your avatar (the picture that appears under your name) smaller? It takes up so mauch space that I must scroll to the right every time I want to read what you wrote.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

tle123 - you need to use a water conditioner because chloramine, unlike chlorine, cannot be removed from water by leaving it standing. You can buy water conditioners at aquarium shops. If your tapwater is still unsuitable for growing plants because of what the water companies are adding to it, is there another source of water you could use for your tank?

medicineman - if you look at tle123's earlier post, you will see that this tank's substrate is gravel _and soil_, and that he/she is using the "low-tech" method of keeping planted aquaria, where CO2 injection, artificial fertilisers, and frequent water changes are not used.

From Alex.


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## medicineman (Sep 10, 2005)

wow..So it was chlorine and chloramine combos are really something they knock out my whole tank back then.

What I know that it is illegal to drill a whell in Singapore, drain water are clean but not suitable due to some slight contamination. Rain water will do perhaps? (but a little acidic and not reliable as it does not always raining heavily all year long).

Whoops I missed the soil thingy... just seeing the gravel...







I agree with you guys since 123 is trying to grow naturally, no ferts and co2 should be used. Well the plant farmers grow them mostly the natural way (with minor addition of chemicals) and I'm sure it can be done that way just nicely. So perhaps the nature of the soil is important? (soil are different from place to place).


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

I didn't realise how BIG my avatar was! hahaha gosh I got a shock myself and was laughing uncontrollably for almost a minute.







Anyway, got that fixed!

I do use an airstone at night and the fish seems to be doing fine if with that. The tank is placed right next to the window and I get a lot of afternoon sun so the lights are usually turned off in the day. (I have a 52 watt white light). It's on for about 3-4 hours in the evenings. I got some pictures of my yellowing leaves, will post that up as attachment tomorrow. Sigh...


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## eggplant.com.sg (Sep 20, 2005)

Hi tle123,

I also just set up a low-tech tank and having similar problems. I am also from Singapore. I have a 3 feet tank, flourescent lighting, morning sun. Some plants doing well, others turning yellow. I still gotta go figure out the names of the plants. 50 cardinal tetra, 2 rainbow fish, 1 5" clown loach that does nothing but hide in the sand, 6 rams. No signs of breathing problems but lots of plant issues! 

Ha ha, half of me thought that it would just work out by itself but I think I need to put in more work on the study of plants. Remembered reading Ms. Walstad's theory on allelo- can't remember the spelling, on how some plants just can't be planted together because they produce chemicals (is that the right term?) to keep other plants from growing but also use up their energy.

Separately for MEDICINEMAN. I don't think it was the chlorine or chloramine that killed your goldfish. It was probably detergent used in the same bucket! I have 5 very healthy goldfish in the office and I use tapwater- weekly changes, no conditioning done at all.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

eggplant-

try getting another clown loach. they do best when kept in pairs, preferable in schools. They have even been known to school with corys... That might help bring him out into the open a little more since they are not shy fish. 

-ricardo


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## eggplant.com.sg (Sep 20, 2005)

Hi Ricardo,

Does the clown loach I buy need to be about the same size or it doesn't matter? Because very few fish shops sell 5" clown loaches, usually just 1" ones.

Thanks,
Eggplant
(Sorry tle123, heh heh, this is out of topic)


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

I don't see the harm in buying some that are smaller. That I know of, clown loaches are not aggressive fish so a couple of extra small ones should do just fine. I think you'll enjoy seeing them all swim around together looking for food. I used to have snails in the tank w/ the loaches and it was fun to watch the clown loaches grab a snail and suck them out of their shell!

-ricardo


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Finally uploaded the pictures.... 

Couple of days back, the tank caught the Green algae on 2 sides on the tank. Decided to clean it up but don't know when it will grow back again. I was wondering if the light is too strong (52watt white light for 2 feet tank).


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## MyraVan (Feb 13, 2005)

Oooh, looks very nice!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The tank looks lovely; the plants look great. Nice floating plants, too. 

Maybe I'm missing something or color blind. I don't see any yellow leaves or algae.


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

I attached a close-up for the leaves :-I

Don't know what caused it... i put a little oyster grits into the tank. Don't know if it will help?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I see what you mean. I honestly don't know what has caused your Anubias to have tissue erosion. However, you just set up this tank. The plants are adjusting to nutrient fluctations (deficiencies and excesses), organic acids and toxins within the soil/water, and the lighting.

I would not worry about it. This tissue erosion may be temporary (new leaves may be okay). Overall, if this is the only problem you're having, I would count myself lucky.









The home aquarium is much different than growing plants hydroponically (nutrient media and tightly controlled conditions). You can expect to see lots of less-than-perfect plant growth.

I think that your adding Oyster Grit was a good move. It can't hurt and might help (especially if Singapore water is soft).


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks Diana. Like you said, the yellowing might be temporary









But the green algae is really a headache. It came back after I got rid of the first invasion. It's fern like and cover the 4 sides of the tank. I hope there's something I can do to help the plants to fight this algae.

c


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your tank is still newly set up, so you can expect more algae in the beginning.

To help the plants, I would scrape off the green algae. Algae growing on the glass is competing with plants for CO2 and other nutrients.

I would also decrease the photoperiod (the total time the lights are on).


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## eggplant.com.sg (Sep 20, 2005)

Diana, I am happy to report that I am truly amazed at how well my plants are doing in my new low-tech tank. I have had some plants not do well, but overall (80%) are thriving!

I never expected such fast, healthy growth without CO2 infusion. I never had any success before CO2 and when I did get it, my plants grew but were never that healthy. I also heeded the advice of many a tank enthusiast that direct sunlight was a definite no-no, but boy are they wrong!

Now, with the low-tech tank a few weeks on, I am just amazed at how a little soil and sunlight (going back to Nature) does the job. It's really quite humbling in a way. Man tries to come up with all sorts of complicated devices to create controlled environments ... but still falls far far short of nature.

Thanks for writing such a wonderful book and even continuing to help out planted tank enthusiasts the world over.


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Amazing growth... initially wanted to pass some plants to my brother. so i cut some leaves and just leave them floating on the water for the time being. And it turned into a emergent plant. (please see attached). Tank looks a little like forest now... hahaha


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Ooh! Your tank looks very nice! Is that a clump of Glosso on the left? What is the emergent plant? 

From Alex.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Wow! Based on earlier picture, this tank really took off.


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## Force (Sep 26, 2005)

> Originally posted by tle123:
> Amazing growth... initially wanted to pass some plants to my brother. so i cut some leaves and just leave them floating on the water for the time being. And it turned into a emergent plant. (please see attached). Tank looks a little like forest now... hahaha


The tank looks great, is that ceratopteris thalicroides coming out of the water?

What is the name of that lamp system wich is on the aquarium?

This nice plastic on top of the aquarium, did you made that or you bought it with the glass?


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Sorry for not reply to your message for such a long time! Don't know if you are still interested but regarding your questions:
The tank looks great, is that ceratopteris thalicroides coming out of the water?

What is the name of that lamp system wich is on the aquarium?
A
ns: Don't actually know..... sorry

This nice plastic on top of the aquarium, did you made that or you bought it with the glass?

Ans: It came with the glass. The tank is really cheap too and its quite good.

Overall the tank and fish are doing fantastic! Only big problem i have now is the algae... they are growing very fast and I have to clean it every other day.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Are you just having to clean the glass? The plants don't look like they have an algae problem. 

If you're cleaning the glass, those magnetic scrapers are a big help. I always thought they were a rather silly idea, until one came free with an order, and I gave it a try. Now I'm a beliver. Even if they disengage, the part that goes in the tank floats, which is a big help. It can "turn corners" and everything. 

Your tank is looking VERY attractive. I too was noticing your light and the very nice "legs" its on, and wondering what manufacturer it is - it looks great. 

It looks like you don't have as many floating plants (or perhaps they're just not showing up in the picture). I'd keep all the floating plants I could for now, especially if you're fighting algae. I've found that floating plants, especially in a "newly" set up aquarium, are the best defense against algae. Gosh though, your plants sure have grown quickly!

It looks lovely!
-Jane


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## Inquisitive (Nov 7, 2003)

I love the tank. I love the low tech method, but I have a problem. I dont have my tank directly near a window. Will this affect my growth. I have a 55 long and 40wx2 lighting. I havent tested, but I try to get all my tank ph's around 6.0-6.5.

Seasons Greetings


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Yeah its the glass! Gosh leave it for a week and I won't be able to see the fish anymore... those Green Monsters..

I'll give the magnetic scrapers a try.









Glad you like tank  The legs comes with the light box, I think they are manufactured in China or Taiwan. The plants are growing so fast that they started growing out of the water and were doing very well. Only problem was they will hit the lights and were starting to turn brown so I had to cut them off.

I will try the floating plants


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Yes you need it to be near sunlight... I don't think it will work if your tank doesn't get enough sunlight


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## eggplant.com.sg (Sep 20, 2005)

Someone is actually trying to harness the energy of algae because they grow so rapidly, everywhere and anywhere. They are a serious threat to many plant and animal species in the rivers. Australia (Perth at least) has this programme teaching people about the cause of algae blooms in the rivers and how to prevent and clean up. 

The guy who is working on the algae conversion to energy is the best bet though. Hope his idea works then maybe we fish enthusiasts can also get energy from our tanks! ha ha


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by tle123:
> Yes you need it to be near sunlight... I don't think it will work if your tank doesn't get enough sunlight


Dear tle123:

Window light often helps, but I'm not sure that sunlight is essential. I have a 55 with two 40 watts next to a North-facing window. Plants are doing great.

You have to look closely at your tank and where it is in your house/apartment. For example, your tank may not be next to a window, but the tank may capture an hour of bright light from a window across the room. That extra natural light may be all that is needed to supplement overhead fluorescent light.

As to the algae, have you tried reducing the light or photoperiod? Your emphasis on having sunlight suggests to me that you're giving this tank more light than it actually needs.

I would reduce the lighting slightly or add emergents & floaters to soak up extra light.

This tank looks good. A little tinkering might reduce algae on glass, but in general, I would be very pleased.


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## tle123 (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks Diana







I've added some floating plants to the tank, hofefully that will help with the algae. (I now have algae not only on glass but on the leaves as well). But like you said, the tank looks great and I am extremely glad with the result


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## raffles (Aug 24, 2009)

*Re: [Wet Thumb Forum]-Whitening & Yellowing leaves*

I really can't help you with the yellowing leaves, but some of medicineman's advice wasn't really relevant: since your substrate is soil + gravel it should have plenty of nutrients. Also, about the fish gasping for breath in the morning: you aren't adding CO2, so the best way to get more O2/less CO2 in your tank over night is to have an airstone going at night (via a timer) or increase the filter flow at night.


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