# Questions about Blackwater crypts



## HeyPK

Looking at Jacobsen's article (Jacobsen, N., 1992. Die Kultur einiger schwieriger Cryptocoryne-Arten in Buchenlauberde. Aqua-Planta 1-92 : 18-25.---english translation)1 I see the following Crypts mentioned that were found to grow much better in a soil that was partly to mostly semi-decomposed beech leaves:

C. ferruginea, C. fusca, C. cordata, c. villosa, C. longicauda, C. minima, C. pallidinerva, C. shculzei, c. purpurea, C. jacobsenii, C. zonata, and C. elliptica.

Do these make up the complete list of blackwater crypts, or are there more?

Do some of these, such as C. cordata, grow adequately in mostly mineral soils, or do they all only really thrive in high leaf litter soils?

Are there other crypts, not on this list that thrive best on high leaf litter soils?

1. You can see this article on Jan Bastmeijer's Crypt pages in German with pictures or in English without pictures. Document service


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## Xema

There are some more:

- C. auriculata
- C. decus-silvae
- C. dewitii??
- C. edithiae
- C. griffithii
- C. ideii
- C. nurii (some location in peat swamp forest)
- C. scurrilis
- C. striolata (some location???)
- C. x timahensis
- C. vietnamensis ???
- C. yujii
- C. zukalii

Some kind of cordata would be growing in more mineral soils... And if you can get an acid mineral soil (with a bit part of organic matter matured) maybe you can grow within most of them...

I add the 'official' spanish translation fo the article for spanish readers...


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## SCMurphy

It also depends on the collection location of the plant. Some of the cordata do fine in a mineralized soil, they were collected in locations with more neutral conditions. Some were collected downstream of peat swamps, they require the more acid conditions. One thing I hope we get to do as the crypts I brought back multiply is try to "adjust the requirements" of these more difficult plants.

At the ECS I told people that I had never seen 90% of the crypts that were mentioned in that paper. They were amazed at that.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Paul,



> Do some of these, such as C. cordata, grow adequately in mostly mineral soils, or do they all only really thrive in high leaf litter soils?


As already stated, much depends on the specific strain of many crypt species. While most cordata live on the acid side in nature (from slightly acid rainwater streams to highly acid peat swamp forests), some are found in springs of limestone areas between travertine deposits!



> Are there other crypts, not on this list that thrive best on high leaf litter soils?


Sure, Niels' paper was just a preliminary how-to tip.

A comprehensive answer to your question is also complicated by the fact that quite a few non-blackwater crypts also thrive in acid leafmould! Some people reported success in cultivating crypts from very different natural habitats (e.g. bullosa) in this soil.


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## EDGE

You can grow, palliderniva, scurilis, elipitica, ideii, longicauda, griffithii, nurii, minima in ADA amazonia soil submersed easily using EI method and high light tank. Keeping blackwater crypts is just like keeping any other stem plants or common crypts in ADA soil.

They don't really like highly mineralized condition (high level of nutrients in the solution) though. Blackwater crypts melt easily if there is too much nutrients. Uenoi also hates mineralized condition. Bullosa and striolata can handle higher level of nutrients. 

leave mould isn't really necessary if ada soil is available.

high nutrients being in the 150 uS (about 70 to 100 ppm NO3)


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## Kai Witte

snipped list:


> - C. auriculata
> - C. dewitii??
> - C. striolata (some location???)
> - C. vietnamensis ???


I don't think we know enough about dewitii's habitat to classify its preferences.

The others are - AFAIK - no blackwater crypts.

OTOH, at least auriculata seems to do well in leafmould... 
(See comment above!)


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## HeyPK

So, our list now looks like this where the ones with question marks either have an unknown habitat or are known to also grow (or closely related forms also grow) in mostly mineral soil:


C. auriculata??
C. cordata??
C. decussilvae
C. dewitii??
C. edithiae
C. elliptica
C. ferruginea
C. fusca
C. griffithii
C. ideii
C. jacobsenii
C. longicauda
C. minima
C. nurii??
C. pallidinerva
C. purpurea
C. scurrilis
C. shculzei
C. striolata??
C. vietnamensis ???
C. villosa
C. x timahensis
C. yujii
C. zonata
C. zukalii

Please make suggestions or corrections.


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## SCMurphy

We are going to have to work on getting to a common terminology.

mineralized : a soil that contains little to no organic matter, having nutrients in the water is Eutrophic (high) Mesotrophic (moderate) Oligotrophic (little) but not mineralized. 

Jacobson was talking to me about some of the crypts we are discussing as being obligate low light plants. He actually told me that some plants have evolved past low light tolerance to needing low light conditions. High light in a nutrient solution runs counter to what he was saying. I wish he used the forums so we could talk with him about this more.


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## HeyPK

From some of my experiences with crypts, I would tend to agree with Neils Jacobsen about low light requirements. When operating on the assumption that high light is OK as long as you keep up the CO2 levels and the nutrient levels, I have lost some species.


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## SCMurphy

My culture list from Jan worked out to be this.

*beech tree litter*

Cryptocoryne cordata Griffith var. cordata 
Cryptocoryne cordata Griffith var. zonata 
Cryptocoryne elliptica 
Cryptocoryne fusca 
Cryptocoryne cf. ideii 
Cryptocoryne longicauda 
Cryptocoryne minima 
Cryptocoryne schulzei 
Cryptocoryne scurrilis 
Cryptocoryne scurrilis 
Cryptocoryne species 
Cryptocoryne cf x purpurea 
Cryptocoryne zukalii 
Cryptocoryne yujii

*beech tree litter / neutral*

Cryptocoryne thwaitesii

*beech tree litter/ limestone*

Cryptocoryne ferruginea

*limestone*

Cryptocoryne albida 
Cryptocoryne aponogetifolia 
Cryptocoryne cordata Griffith var. siamensis 
Cryptocoryne crispatula Engler var. balansae 
Cryptocoryne hudoroi 
Cryptocoryne noritoi 
Cryptocoryne usteriana 
Cryptocoryne albida

*neutral*

Cryptocoryne ciliata

*slight acid*

Cryptocoryne bullosa 
Cryptocoryne cordata Griffith var. cordata 
Cryptocoryne moehlmannii 
Cryptocoryne cf. Nurii 
Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia 
Cryptocoryne spiralis 
Cryptocoryne versteegii 
Cryptocoryne vietnamensis 
Cryptocoryne wendtii 
Cryptocoryne zaidiana 
Cryptocoryne alba 
Cryptocoryne crispatula Engler var. tonkinensis


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## EDGE

How does one work out the difference between organic and inorganic nutrients in the water column? Plants do not readily consume organic nutrients in the water column. 

striolata is slightly acid to neutral.
Kai listed the auriculata and vietnamensis as neutral as well


I am adding 3 ppm PO4 and 6 to 9 ppm NO3 daily. If I slack on the dosing algae appear very quickly. i.e Monday dose. Tues don't dose. algae appear in the afternoon.


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## Xema

SCMurphy said:


> *slight acid*
> 
> Cryptocoryne bullosa
> Cryptocoryne cordata Griffith var. cordata
> Cryptocoryne moehlmannii
> Cryptocoryne cf. Nurii
> Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia
> Cryptocoryne spiralis
> Cryptocoryne versteegii
> Cryptocoryne vietnamensis
> Cryptocoryne wendtii
> Cryptocoryne zaidiana
> Cryptocoryne alba
> Cryptocoryne crispatula Engler var. tonkinensis


You are adding in the same group ones of the most easy sp. with ones of the most difficult sp. My C. nurii, never grown so well until I putted into my peat swamp set up. If that will be right, bullosa would be a commont plant in to the slight and soft water tanks...


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## AaronT

> - C. griffithii


I'm having some luck with this one submersed in Sean's soil recipe substrate. The water is on the hard side too, about 12 GH and 3 KH.

I'll post some pictures when I get a chance.


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## SCMurphy

Jan's culture data is for substrate type, not water conditions, as he doesn't grow many crypts submersed. 


Sean from an email from Jan said:


> Another list with an indication for cultivation:
> "beech tree" means almost pure beech tree litter, pH may go down to 3.5, but 5 will do,
> "slight acid / neutral" may be a standard soil,
> "limestone" means an addition of some limestone in standard soil.


I had griffithii growing well underwater in one tank, then i made the mistake of moving it to a tank I thought it would do better in. I'll let you know if I ever get it to recover.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Aaron,



> I'm having some luck with this one submersed in Sean's soil recipe substrate. The water is on the hard side too, about 12 GH and 3 KH.


Is this a positive ID?


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## AaronT

Kai Witte said:


> Hello Aaron,
> 
> Is this a positive ID?


I haven't flowered it , no. I'll post a picture tomorrow sometime.


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## EDGE

I have bullosa and stiolata growing in the same hydroponic environment as wendtii, undulata, crispatula, ponterrifolia in the 75g emersed. 6 to 7 pH flutuating between water change. 2x HO T5 and lots of nutrients. water is crystal clear. 

Bullosa responded way better in 77f temperature. It didnt like 72f at all. The plant started melting in 72f and recover quickly when I moved the setup inside the house and raise the temp to 77f. I had the tank at 72f for 4 weeks and now at 77f for 3 weeks. Same goes for striolata.


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## ombcat

I am enjoying this wonderful discussion on crypts, learned more here than any book I have read. I want to Thank each of you.
ombcat


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## AaronT

Here are pictures of the two submersed leaves of my supposed C. griffithii.


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## Kai Witte

Hello Aaron,

that could be a griffithii. However, given your culture conditions, I'd guess it to be more likely a cordata strain. Get a runner into emersed culture and let us know when it flowers!


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## Xema

That looks exactly like one of my blassii cordata, labeled as 'special' from Thailand.










This plant appear in my tank after a reseting up and the color pattern made me tp pay attention on it. At first moment I thought in a griffithi or shulzei planted into tank due to mistake.... But a after to put some plantlets of this cordata labeled as special, into another tank, I saw it develop the same color pattern.
By the way, I saw some guy who kept a plant labeled as cordata var. griffithi.


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## AaronT

Thanks for your help guys. I'll see about getting it going emersed in a bit.


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## Xema

A better shoot of the C. cordata.


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## AaronT

That's a nice looking Crypt. This one that I have doesn't have leaves quite that elongated. It's still young though so it may change.


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