# My bottle test results... are they bad?



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Well I think it was about two weeks ago, I had done a bottle test on the black earth topsoil. After leaving the water in there for a week, this was the results of the tests. Keep in mind that I don't have a gh/kh test kit yet so I don't know what those are. My tapwater's pH is 7.8 and the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is all at zero.

pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 4.0
Nitrite: 5.0
Nitrate: 5.0

Once I was done with the test, I left it in the jar because my Mom was going to put the soil into her garden. Well it was left sitting in the jar(with a lid on it) for another week so I was curious and tested it again. Here are the results from those tests.

pH: 7.1
Ammonia: 8.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0

Aside from the humus changing the water to a golden yellow which looked quite nice, why was the ammonia so high? It got a lot higher when it was left sitting in the jar for another week. I didn't remove any of the wood bits and I didn't let it air out(I'll be doing that before I add it to the tank).

Is it bad that the ammonia is so high? Am I to assume that it'll take quite some time for the tank to cycle because of the high ammonia or will it be different once there are plants in the soil?


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Either could happen, it could take a while, or it could just take off and cycle away. That is the problem with soils, you just never know. 

The key is to get as many different plants and as much of them in the tank right away after setting it up. Floating, rooting, etc... JUST THINK LOTS. If you can see the bottom of the tank then you can always add more and after the tank settles in you can start removing ones you don't enjoy or leave them and adjust to your pleasure.

Basically it comes down to getting those roots developed and the water column under control; that is soaking up ammonia, iron and aiding with the cycle.

Hope that helps.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I would definently get some floaters. Duckweed is a major pain, IMO. Letting the soil air out is a BIG help. I put mine thick enough just to cover a laid out trash bag (makes bagging it up much easier), until the soil was dry. About a day, day and a half. I didn't clean out all my wood bits, just the large chunks.
It took about two days and all was well. Filling your tank S L O W L Y intially, and using a bowl or plate is very key to keeping it clean starting out.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Red_Rose said:


> Well I think it was about two weeks ago, I had done a bottle test on the black earth topsoil. After leaving the water in there for a week, this was the results of the tests. Keep in mind that I don't have a gh/kh test kit yet so I don't know what those are. My tapwater's pH is 7.8 and the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is all at zero.
> 
> pH: 8.0
> Ammonia: 4.0
> ...


This is what Tom Barr posted in another forum. I think that you might find it useful. His suggestions make a lot of sense for anyone using soil as a substrate or part of substrate and looking to avoid problems.

"Some simple solutions to using soil in planted tanks
I set up a number of soil based tanks for some folks, as well as myself for a number of years.

I've suggested things such as a good soak 2-3 weeks prior to use to leach out the NH4. Or alternatively, boiling for 10 minutes or so.

One thing that came up was something I've not seen others mention and many had been using the straight 100% soil on the bottom layer, generally about 1" deep. This works also.

But I never really liked that. My uncle owns a Green house in GA and suggested when I was kid to mix the soil with sand at 50-75% sand for each part soil to reduce the richness and when you uproot, it makes far less mess.

So I've pretty much stuck with it since.

The method is simple and gets around many of the issues that folks have with soil.

1.Soil is well, dirt cheap.
2. Rich in all the nutrient goodies
3. Available everywhere
4. Sand is cheap as a sediment gets as well, but lacks the nutrients

Mixing these two works very well.

So, I simply mix 1 part soil to 2-3 parts sand=> wet> then mix good.
You want nice dark sand, not "mud".
Then you add about 2-3" of this and maybe a cap of 1" plain sand.

You can add 3-4 parts sand and use it without any cap actually and then lightly vacuum the top to remove any leftover soil.

While this is not as rich as the pure soil, it also does not reduce the sediment nearly as much, and it's still a lot of soil, just spread out a lot more in 2-3" vs 1".

You can add the "mud cubes" later as the plants get growing well and remove most of the nutrients. Soil + water = mud. Add mud to ice cube trays: freeze. add mud cubes to the plant roots.

You may add anything you want to the soil also, root hormones, KNO3, CaCO3 ,more peat etc.

The results and usefulness are when you replant and the sediment does not get nearly as stinky and reduced, the sand provides better flow and less mess, better able to hold the plant roots down etc.

As far as having less nutrients than a pure soil layer, well think about it.........
the total amount is still relatively the same, but instead of a muddy mess, you have it spread interspersed with the sand.

Also, but the time it does run out of fertilizer, the tank's cycling is producing it's own waste to supply the roots/leaves etc.

You can then use the mud cubes etc, or switch KNO3/KH2PO4/Traces at small dosings to accommodate sustained growth.

I think it's pretty easy and folks should try this cheap method out.
It's been around a long long time and works well. Do many water changes for the first 2-4 weeks of a set up if you use CO2 or Excel.

I think this routine will resolve most if not all the issues some folks have with soil.

Regards,
Tom Barr
__________________
www.BarrReport.com >(///)> The monthly Aquatic Plant Horticulture journal"


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Red_Rose said:


> Is it bad that the ammonia is so high? Am I to assume that it'll take quite some time for the tank to cycle because of the high ammonia or will it be different once there are plants in the soil?


It will be different once plants are added. My ammonia spiked up to 4.0 for about 2-3 days during my bottle test. Once I had the tank set up it lasted for maybe one day.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Tom Barr's opinions and advice are always worth considering. 

It this case the high ammonia is caused by the humus and other organics in the "Black Soil", whatever that is. As someone said in this thread, "Black Soil" in one place probably won't be the same stuff that is found in another place. In fact, "black soil" is a generic term for soil that is rich in organics.

I have a feeling that the high ammonia will continue to be generated by the soil in question for some time to come, maybe months, as the organics rot. During this time, no animals should be kept in that aquarium.

Bill


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

It will NOT take months... mine took days and it was high in organics. Mixing sand is not suggested. Tom Barr does not typically represent a NPT tank (may not be at all) so take his advice with a grain of salt when setting one up. Please think about getting D. Walstad's book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" if you haven't, it is even avaible for download for $15 (check amazon). It will guide you through this whole process.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I understand why adding sand was suggested, just don't see the point unless your changing your aquascape on a regular basis. 
Back to what was suggested about adding plants. Plants are going to make a major difference in your test results. 
How big is your tank going to be?

I would suggest getting the book, the download really isn't worth $15.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Actually, I just got the book so I'm in the process of reading through it. It's been a great read so far. 

The size of the tank I'm going to be setting up is 10 gallons.

Even though it probably won't have the same effect as an aquatic plant but I decided to set up a test of my own. I can't remember what the name of the plant is but this is what it looks like. They are a type of plant that can grow in soil or just in water. We've even had one that was completely submersed in water and grew very well. I took a small sprig of this vine and added it to the soil of my bottle test. I'm going to leave it in there for a couple of days to see if there is any change in the ammonia. When the bottle is not in the sun, I leave it under a lamp. Again, there may not be any change in the ammonia but I thought I'd give it a try.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Worse case scenario is since it's only a 10 gallon, is just to tear down if things get too bad and try a different soil. Or, try a different soil now, if that is an option.
Either way, I would set it up following the directions from the book. Don't add more soil to make a thicker layer of soil. Just set up and see how things go. You never know till you get your feet...or hands wet.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

01krisp10 said:


> It will NOT take months... mine took days and it was high in organics. Mixing sand is not suggested. Tom Barr does not typically represent a NPT tank (may not be at all) so take his advice with a grain of salt when setting one up. Please think about getting D. Walstad's book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" if you haven't, it is even avaible for download for $15 (check amazon). It will guide you through this whole process.


You might well be right, but the fact that her sample went from 4 ppm of ammonia to 8 ppm in about two weeks suggests that there is a lot of ammonia-generating stuff in that kind of "black earth" that she is using.

I agree that Ms. Walstad's book is invaluable to anyone who grows aquatic plants, particularly in soil-based aquaria. If at all possible, the hard cover edition, not the download, should be purchased. I've read of problems with the former, and the book will be useful for as long as anyone tries to grow plants.

Bill


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> ...
> Even though it probably won't have the same effect as an aquatic plant but I decided to set up a test of my own. I can't remember what the name of the plant is but this is what it looks like. They are a type of plant that can grow in soil or just in water. ...


I think that's a Golden Pothos/Devil's Ivy (Scindapsus aureus). Not sure about how fish would react if they eat it, but it's poisonous and can do a number on house pets that eat it.

Like you, I've grown them in bottles of plain water, they are super easy to grow and actually a really helpful plant in terms of indoor air quality. But I've not been able to convince myself it's safe to have in the aquarium should a fish or shrimp start chomping on it.

If it is safe and someone can verify it, I've got a great spot for one, right above my 7G El Natural tank at the office.

Ian


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Mr Fishies said:


> I think that's a Golden Pothos/Devil's Ivy (Scindapsus aureus). Not sure about how fish would react if they eat it, but it's poisonous and can do a number on house pets that eat it.
> 
> Like you, I've grown them in bottles of plain water, they are super easy to grow and actually a really helpful plant in terms of indoor air quality. But I've not been able to convince myself it's safe to have in the aquarium should a fish or shrimp start chomping on it.
> 
> ...


I have no intentions of using that kind of plant in my aquarium. I'm just using a small stem of it in the bottle test to see if it affects the ammonia in any way.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

aquabillpers said:


> I agree that Ms. Walstad's book is invaluable to anyone who grows aquatic plants, particularly in soil-based aquaria.


I found Ms. Walstad's book invaluable in explaining the natural system, i.e. the ecology, of a planted tank. I have yet to come across another book providing such detailed coverage of tank ecology.

As I understand it, the book represents a very uncommon approach of maintaining a tank. It emphasizes on providing the required ingredients to kick start a system (the tank) and then let that system operates on itself with very little outside intervention. Observing something that flourishes with the least intervention is itself a beautiful experience.

Prior to reading Ms. Walstad's book, I had to maintain the weekly routine of changing tank water. I had to stock a variety of chemicals for dosing the tank so that the plant would flourish. Now, I don't do any of that. Best of all, fish seem to like the tank environment better. They live longer and are more playful.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Red_Rose said:


> I have no intentions of using that kind of plant in my aquarium. I'm just using a small stem of it in the bottle test to see if it affects the ammonia in any way.


:focus: What types of aquatic plants do you have, if any? :mrgreen:


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

rohape said:


> :focus: What types of aquatic plants do you have, if any? :mrgreen:


The only plant I have right now is java moss and that's in my betta's tank. [smilie=n: I'm going to be buying the plants when I get his tank. I've been going through the PlantFinder here on this site to see which plants I want. I'm probably going to use plants that are considered easy to grow. I know that hornwort is one plant I'm definitely going to get for this set up.

Can you suggest any? Hopefully, I'll be able to find all that I need in the LFS in my area.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Some pretty common ones are:
Hygrophila difformis (Water Wisteria)
Almost any type of Ludwigia
Hornwort (use floating)
Almost any type of Cabomba
Almost any type of Rotala

Check your garden nurserys too...if you have any in your area, look at "SOME" pond plants.
Some Water Lettuce would be GREAT! Beats Duckweed, and Water Sprite hands down (in looks anyway ). IMO Frogbit, and others listed on the PlantFinder as floaters. I actually have a Water Lily floating in my tank.

Of course make sure your lighting meets the requirements. Just look for fast growers.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

rohape said:


> Some pretty common ones are:
> Hygrophila difformis (Water Wisteria)
> Almost any type of Ludwigia
> Hornwort (use floating)
> ...


I'll write those names down and look for them when I go to buy my plants.  We have quite a few nurseries in town so I'll check them out for Water Lettuce.

Thank you!


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Good Luck on your search!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

When you check out the nurseries, look for Salvinia natans, aka floating fern. It is a cute floating plant.


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

Mr Fishies said:


> I think that's a Golden Pothos/Devil's Ivy (Scindapsus aureus). Not sure about how fish would react if they eat it, but it's poisonous and can do a number on house pets that eat it.
> 
> Like you, I've grown them in bottles of plain water, they are super easy to grow and actually a really helpful plant in terms of indoor air quality. But I've not been able to convince myself it's safe to have in the aquarium should a fish or shrimp start chomping on it.
> 
> ...


I have pothos growing in my tank for the last 4 months with no ill effects. So have many others on plantedtank. Whic is where i posted to see if they were safe first, which they are.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> pH: 7.1
> Ammonia: 8.0
> Nitrite: 0
> Nitrate: 5.0
> ...


Red Rose,

Good question. The bottle test misleads about ammonia and nitrites in the finished tank. The problem is that because the water isn't circulated, the bottle's water becomes anaerobic. The soil quickly pulls oxygen out of the water (all those bacteria decomposing the fresh organic matter use up oxygen). In this anaerobic environment, the nitrifying bacteria in the soil can't and don't convert ammonia to nitrates.

The perfect bottle test should be set up where the water is aerated. When I did bottle test with gentle bubbling of the water, there was never any ammonia. Natural soil is filled with nitrifying bacteria, but they do need oxygen to do their job.

Bottom line: The soil will probably be just fine in a tank with good water circulation or aeration. After the soil matures (a few months) you can decrease or even remove the aeration.

Does this make sense?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> Red Rose,
> 
> Good question. The bottle test misleads about ammonia and nitrites in the finished tank. The problem is that because the water isn't circulated, the bottle's water becomes anaerobic. The soil quickly pulls oxygen out of the water (all those bacteria decomposing the fresh organic matter use up oxygen). In this anaerobic environment, the nitrifying bacteria in the soil can't and don't convert ammonia to nitrates.
> 
> ...


I didn't even think of that. Even if there were plants in with the soil, the plants would be giving off oxygen whereas there was nothing like that happening in the test I set up.

So what would be better to use? A bubbler or just a simple powerhead/filter?

Also, I had just tested the water in the jar for the first time since I added the Golden Pothos in the jar on Sunday. The ammonia went from 8.0 down to 4.0 in less then a week. It's not much but if I had more plants in the soil it would probably go down a lot more, more quickly.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Also, I had just tested the water in the jar for the first time since I added the Golden Pothos in the jar on Sunday. The ammonia went from 8.0 down to 4.0 in less then a week. It's not much


It took two weeks for the ammonia to reach 8. Then it took less than a week for the plant to cut the ammonia in half (from 8 to 4). That means the plant removes ammonia faster than the soil generates it. In other words, had you added plant the same day you set up the bottle, you would never have detected any ammonia.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

*Plants are way too cool!!!* :mrgreen:


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

I muct say i have been keeping my eye on this topic as i have my own bottle tests going on now. I find all this information great because now i know what to expect. I plan you use my soil in pot for my root feeding plants.

Please keep us posted on how things work out.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> I didn't even think of that. Even if there were plants in with the soil, the plants would be giving off oxygen whereas there was nothing like that happening in the test I set up.
> 
> So what would be better to use? A bubbler or just a simple powerhead/filter?
> 
> Also, I had just tested the water in the jar for the first time since I added the Golden Pothos in the jar on Sunday. The ammonia went from 8.0 down to 4.0 in less then a week. It's not much but if I had more plants in the soil it would probably go down a lot more, more quickly.


It sounds like your soil isn't all that nitrogen-rich. I'd say it is fine for setting up your tank. You can monitor ammonia/nitrite levels and do water changes if you have to.

I used an air bubbler with the bottles (pipette connected to air-pump with air-line tubing) when I was doing ammonia-uptake experiments. Soil and/or mulm did a great job of removing added ammonia. I don't think you need to go to the extent I did in your bottle test-- unless you want to.

In your situation, the bottle test can show you that your soil doesn't cloud the water. Some soils seem to do this, and a bottle test will reveal the problem before setting up an entire tank. It also gives hobbyists a feel for working with soil before they set up their tanks.

I actually never did a bottle test before I set up my tanks. I set tanks up with lots of plants on Saturday morning. If the water was clear, I added the fish on Sunday.

Not only do you have nitrifying bacteria naturally in the soil, but the plants will immediately start taking up ammonia. Just have lots of plants, clear water, and good lighting.

There's just really nothing that can duplicate a planted tank!


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Well I took the plant out of my jar today because I was putting it into a pot for in the house and I noticed that the surface of the water had a green hue to it. Is that algae? Could that have formed from the jar being in the sun for quite a few hours of the day, everyday?

One thing I did notice with this soil is that it had gotten a very dark yellow. At first it was a very light yellow-brown but it's gotten darker in the past few weeks. Would it be best to use charcoal in a filter(when the tank is set up) to remove some of this coloring or should I just leave it?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I have a feeling I know what the green color is in the water. I think it was from the plant itself. I would've edited that out of my post but I could edit it.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> One thing I did notice with this soil is that it had gotten a very dark yellow. At first it was a very light yellow-brown but it's gotten darker in the past few weeks. Would it be best to use charcoal in a filter(when the tank is set up) to remove some of this coloring or should I just leave it?


I assume you're talking about the water turning yellow and brownish. A slight yellowish tint (humic acids released from soil bacteria) can be expected and won't hurt. If water becomes too dark and reduces tank lighting, you may want to do water changes and/or use charcoal.

Most importantly, though, make sure your tank get sufficient water circulation the first few months-- until soil settles down. The brown water discoloration tells me that the soil bacteria are very active right now and are pulling oxygen out of the tank water. Once you set up your tank with this soil, check your fish for signs of oxygen deficiency in the early morning.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> I assume you're talking about the water turning yellow and brownish. A slight yellowish tint (humic acids released from soil bacteria) can be expected and won't hurt. If water becomes too dark and reduces tank lighting, you may want to do water changes and/or use charcoal.
> 
> Most importantly, though, make sure your tank get sufficient water circulation the first few months-- until soil settles down. The brown water discoloration tells me that the soil bacteria are very active right now and are pulling oxygen out of the tank water. Once you set up your tank with this soil, check your fish for signs of oxygen deficiency in the early morning.


Thank you for your help.  I'm currently looking around for a good filter for the tank so I can add charcoal if needed. I just hope that a current, no matter how strong or mild it may be, won't stress out my betta.

Although I will admit that the thought of the tank water becoming oxygen deficient in the morning kind of makes me nervous for my betta and snail.:???: I hope I won't have that problem.


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