# Angelfish in my tank?



## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I have been getting different opinions on what to do, so Im going to ask here. My tank is 36x12x16 (30G). Its moderately planted with a nice dense section of water wisteria. A piece of driftwood has java fern/moss growing on it. There is also a light portion of some type of micro sword growing in the tank as well. The tank has only been planted for 2 weeks but is doing well thus far. 

Im stocked with 4 peppered cories and two ottos as of now. My future plans for the tank are to acquire 2 angelfish. I dont want to breed them, just raise them and keep them happy. Some people tell me 30G is to small for angelfish, other people tell me its ok. What do you guys think?

Another thing that concerns me is my filter. Its a penguin biowheel 200, rated for up to 50 gallon tanks. It creates a decent current on the side of the tank where it is located. From what I have read, angels do not like a strong current in the water. I remember it saying something along the lines of it will make them waste to much energy swimming and therefore they will grow slower and not live as long. Any truth to this? I have a smaller whisper filter that I can hook up as soon as I get a part for it. I can turn the flow really low on the whisper too. Would this be a good option?

Finally, I was also thinking of getting a school of tetras as well. (maybe 6 lemons) Am I asking for trouble with this many fish? Id really rather not push the tank to its limits. Personally, I would perfer to keep it understocked, but a small school of tetras would really add to the tank in my opinion. 

Thanks for taking the time to read all this. I want to be fair to the fish that Im keeping so I like to really do my homework.


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## Petfairy (Jul 17, 2006)

For angelfish, the 30 gallons of water is ok, but it needs to be taller. What you have is a long tank, where as a 30 tall is pretty much perfect for angels. They do even better in a tank that is 24" tall. But as i understand it, the 30 tall is 18 inches tall, and is the minimum for angelfish. I have been through this also, i love angelfish. I have both the long and the tall 30 gallons, and i remember talking about this alot.

Good luck.


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## Cassie (May 27, 2006)

I have two angels and they are in a 54g corner. They were previously in a 15 hex from the time they were about nickel sized to about half dollar sized, and it was tight in there. They have grown so much now that they are in the larger tank, and my veil is HUGE! I wouldn't put him in a 30, but I wouldn't see a problem with a short finned one, at least not as much. I wouldn't put two in there, because you will likely have problems, whether they are male-female, female-female, or for sure if male-male. If you had a breeding pair, you wouldn't want anything else in there, since it would be a small area. 
My suggestion is one short finned or none, but not two...


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Perhaps a bolivian ram would be a better choice for my tank size? I really want a center piece fish, that I can care for and base my whole tank around. Does anyone have any input on keeping a pair of them in a 30 gal?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I've kept and bred hundreds of angels over the years. There is a large range between minimum and optimum conditions. I've kept full-grown angels in a 20H with reasonable success. They really don't have much room to turn around though. Many breeders routinely use 20H's for each spawning pair. If you're going for a community tank, I'd opt for at least a 40 or 50g tank before I'd think of adding other fish to a pair of angels.

Full-grown angels are quite large for the average aquarium. If you're going for "optimum" conditions, I'd recommend at least a 75g or 90g for a group of 6 or more. That said, I'll admit to raising and growing out hundreds of the little buggers with nothing more than a 10g hatching tank and a 40g growout tank. I certainly wouldn't do that now.


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## morefishies (Aug 29, 2006)

i think a pair of bolivian rams would be fine for a 30 gallon tank considering they are much smaller than angelfish.


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## Cassie (May 27, 2006)

rams would probably be a better option, they are smaller, tend to be less agressive, but still have the cool SA ciclid personality


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Yes, forget the pair of angels. Bolivian Rams are great fish. I've had two for about 2 years now and they have a great personality and go really well with tetra schools. As guaiac boy said, even through breeders use 20G highs for breeding they aren't concerned about the scape of the tank or how it looks they simply want them to breed. Angels in a small tank that is planted won't really look that good once they grow, one will probably dominate the other one. I had a pair in a 46g bowfront once and I gave them away because they looked to cramped.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I havent found anything yet that talks about water current in a tank housing rams. 
Does anyone think my filter is to strong for keeping these fish? Or perhaps for growing plants in general. Am I making to much of a current?

Oh, and thanks for all the help thus far guys.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I think you're making too much of the current. I have yet to see a densely planted tank with too much.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

HA HA Perhaps you are right. I just want them to feel at home.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

No, I wouldn't worry about the current either. I have a pair of German blue ram's with a pretty good flow and they have no problem getting away from it if they want to.


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## anthonysquire (Mar 15, 2006)

I have 2 Bolivian Rams in a 29 gal along with a pleco (who is rapidly outgrowing the tank) about 10 neons and 5 black skirt tetras. I love my rams they are a great fish. I'm thinking of trying to trade the pleco in for some cory's, he/she takes away from the rams because of his size. Anyway, I think 2 or 3 bolivian rams would be great in your tank.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I planning on having this as the final stocking plan..

2 ottos
4 peppered cories
8 lemon tetras
2 bolivian rams
+ the random snails that appear

What do you guys think? Am I asking to much of the water? Would you lighten the load any?


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

That sounds like a good plan, although I'd add a few more Cory's and Oto's to the mix, since you do have room for a few more of them.

None of the fish you have listed are big waste producers, so I don't think you'll be asking too much of your water at all.


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## sarahbobarah (Sep 5, 2005)

Since I think smaller fish make tanks look bigger and enhance rather than detract from aquascapes, I second the choice for rams. The angelfish would probably have tried to eat your tetras anyway.


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

I agree with Jan, the fish you plan on having will not be too much for your tank. I have angelfish and it has become one per tank except for a mated pair in a tank of their own. They are much too territorial to keep together in a small area (29 gal or 44 gal). I've never had rams, but they sound more reasonable than the angels. I just love angelfish, so I'm willing to put up with their demands.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I really love the angels too. But I respect them, so I only want a fair setup for them. I'll just have to hook up something sweet...like a 75 gallon, sometime next year. 

As of now, I think I may bring my cory school up to 6 and pick up my tetras when my wisteria fills in a bit more. I trimmed the tops off the original plants last week and replanted them. I wanted to create a "forest", so to speak so the tetras would have a lot of shade if they wanted it. 

Thanks again to everyone for all the input.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I had been doing my homework on panda corys, and decided to see how they would do in my tank with my four peppered corys. So, last night I went on a trip to the fish store to pick up a strain of ludwiga,(red & green small leaves) because I wanted to add something different to the area covered in wisteria. To break it up a bit. 
I had been keeping an eye on a tank of pandas for the past month. As of last night he was down to 4 so I picked up 2. 

After I released them they started to school with my peppered corys instantly. They explored the whole tank and didnt even bother to run and hide. 
I really like these guys, so I hope they do alright.

Any body keep panda corys?


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I want to bring this back up because its about that time that Im going to start looking for a pair of rams. 
I changed my tetra choice form lemons to serpaes. I wanted a red fish to go with my plants. Any bolivian ram owners have anything to say about the rams ability to stand up for itself?
The serpaes can be calm but they can also act like *******s. They seem to find it necessary to bully my poor little panda corys.
Also, what would be the best ratio of rams to get? Female & male or female, female & male or male, male & female. 

Current stocking is 6 cory cats (4 peppered, 2 panda) 2 otos, 8 serpae tetras.
30 gallons.

Thanks.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I have three rams - 2 males and 1 female in my 180g. For the moment they all seem to be getting along ok. They always hang out together and all three look great. Before I moved them to the "big tank", the males were very territorial and one was always dominant and more colorful. Apparently they feel less inclined to be grouchy in larger surroundings.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

quaiac_boy - Are you talking about german rams or bolivian rams?

And for everyone- I took a trip to a new fish store last night. Huge place, hundreds of tanks easily. It was reccomended to me by a guy at a store I go to up around my way because they carry a lot of dwarf cichlids. I went with the intention of possibly picking up a pair of dwarf cockatoos. Then I found out just how much they are. Forty bucks a pair, so I passed on that action. I also was looking at bolivian rams which were what I originally wanted before I found out about the cookatoo cichlids. 
These were affordable but the problem was they only had males. I really liked the look of one of them but hesitated on buying just one male. 

So finally on to my question if anyone is still reading.. Can I keep just one male bolivian ram until I find him a woman? Is he likely to get frustrated without a mate and terrorize my other fish?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

German rams - although that isn't the best name for them. Mikrogeophagus ramirezi is probalby better. "German" implies that they were bred in Germany. Most of the ones in the US come from Florida or SE Asia. They're actually native to Venezuala. I've always found Bolivian rams to be less colorful and to me, their eyes are too big for their bodies.

If you really want nice ones, contact Mark at anubiasdesign.com. He regularly imports wild rams. Apparently they're much nicer in terms of vitality, color, and character. He usually has both males & females.

I've kept a single male before - no issues. Mine have always been peaceful. If they decide to pair up that can easily change though. Typical chiclid behavior.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Funny, because its the wild crazed look of their eyes that attracts me to them. Im contimplating riding back to the store I went to last night to pick up the male bolivian I had my eye on. 

I love the look of the blue rams but from what I have researched they are less tolerant of water conditions then the bolivians. My water is meidum soft and with a PH around 7.4-7.8 depending on how long its been since I changed the water. I have read that they need softer acidic water to do really well.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I keep mine in GH 15 KH 12 water with a degassed pH of about 7.7. They aren't spawning, but they seem to be happy enough.

Wild-caught ones might be less tollerant though.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Well heres an update.. I drove over to another LFS that I hadnt been to in about 3 weeks just to check if they had gotten in anything new. And what do I see.... A tank full of bolivian rams. I walked out of there with two females and one male for 20 bucks. They're still kind of pale but I suspect once they settle in they will show a little better color. 

I had them eating new life spectrum small pellets that I feed to my tetras and corys, but they didnt seem to interested. Is there something larger that anyone would reccomend feeding to dwarf cichlids?


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## andy485 (Aug 19, 2005)

I had 3 full sized Angels I paid 20$ a piece for and I wish I had only bought one. They were in my 90 gallon planted tank and began fighting. I lost one of them and the other two are alive but still fight from time to time. They lock mouths like kissing fish it is really wierd. I also had three german rams but now I have one female because the males killed each other. I would probally recommend a male and female ram or one Angel to avoid a violent tank.


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## star rider (Feb 27, 2006)

angels are fine in a 30 .. I have several pairs of angels I even have a mating pair in a 75 discus tank..
I keeop angels in 30 planted with driftwood.

angels ain't that fragile and can handle moderate current if the tank has structure(plants and driftwood.)

the only real issue you have with angels and aggression is when you get mating pairs forming.

I do not advocate getting several angels in a commnity tank unless you are prepared to seperate the fish when pairs form. since it is very tough to distinguish sex it's a crap shoot when you drop angels in a tank.

angels(mated pairs) are fine in community tanks as long as you have structure and room.

angels can get big but generally not as big as many think ..unless you get altums..then all bets are off..also wild scalare tend to be a bit larger than domestic..and both are noticably more aggressive.
as far as bolivain rams(altispinosa) and blue rams (Ramirezi)

the bolivians are hardier and actually larger(not by much).

both species can survive less than optimal pH and both do well in warm water(82-84)
if you want them to spawn..the rule is 2 females to 1 male(blues are easier to sex)
if you get young fish it is hard to distinguish the sex.

bolivians are tougher to sex and do not always adhere to typical id factors( I have pairs that look identical (males-females) until they spawn..then you see the females larger tube.

blue are also less tolerant of nitrates.

(usualy not a big issue with planted tanks)

also it is best to have water that is softer as this lends to a softer egg shell and more permeable by the males sperm.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

I picked up three bolivian rams on the 19th. Myself and the guy at the store who said he had some experience with dwarf cichlids spent a good while watching the tank and taking our best guesses as to what was male and what was female. 
Although, after doing even more research on these fish I now realize niether of us had any idea of what we were doing. 
I bought what I believed was a male and two females but now I think I have two males and a female. This is only a guess of course, by me, judging from their behavior to each other. But ultimately I still have no idea what I have in the tank. 
I do have to say though that I really recommend these fish. My tetras and corys are cool to watch but they never really engage in behavior like these guys do. It keeps me watching the tank for at least a couple of hours each night.


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## star rider (Feb 27, 2006)

even the stuff telling you what to look for isn't all that correct.
I have two known pairs and other than size.I cannot determine which is which.
 

that said...you should know in a short while if you have a pair.


as to antics in the tank..I call mine the 'clowns' of the aquarium...they chase each other around the tank..and they will stand down:badgrin: any other occupant in the tank..including breeding angels.


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