# Starting With Emersed Glosso



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Today I am trying out the method Tom Barr recommended for establishing a ground cover before filling the tank with water. I'm using one pot of Glossostigma elatinoides, cut into nodes and planted "dry", in Black Fluorite Sand, with Diamond Black as a lower layer. This is in a 10 gallon tank, with 30 watts of CFL coiled tube bulbs, with good DIY reflectors. I just spent an hour and a half planting the glosso - reminded me of the videos I see of people in Asia planting rice. The substrate is soaked, but no water is visible. Here is what it looks like now. Note that one pot wasn't enough to completely cover the substrate. But, fortunately, I intended to leave a bare area for some Rotala after I fill the tank.

















I plan to post pictures as the glosso grows, assuming it does grow. Has anyone tried this and failed?


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Glosso is a real demanding plant and defiantly not slow growing!

I could see the advantage of doing this with dwarf hairgrass or HC due to demands and growth rates.

Either way looks like a fun experiment to try out. I assume you have the tank covered.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

This is a standard 10 gallon tank with a "perfecto" hood and light on it, so it is covered. I used a bit of plastic wrap to cover the slot for the HOB filter.

A big advantage I found while planting this way is that there is no risk of the tiny plantlets floating up and frustrating me. Some of those are just barely covered with substrate now, something impossible to do in a tank of water.

I picked glosso instead of HC because I will have no CO2 for this tank, just Excel, and I'm not at all sure HC would do well that way. It is just a learning exercise anyway. The open area will be for learning how to prune a dense stand of Rotala to get a good round bush, and maintain it. Just one more thing I need to learn.


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## Amazon_Replica (Nov 24, 2007)

I have glosso running rampant in my 125, i transfered a clump to my 55, it hasn't died, but hasn't established either. I'm curious to see your results.


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

Thanks for documenting this. I will be doing the same with Lilaeopsis soon.

Thanks,


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

I know it's only been 5 days, but have you noticed and new growth or death yet? Also, how did you make your DIY reflectors?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

First: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ects/45208-diy-mod-perfecto-10-gal-light.html is how I made the reflectors.

Second:
The plantlets all look about the same, with a few yellowing leaves here and there, but only slight growth so far. A possible problem is that the tank temperature isn't steady, since there is no water in it. It varies from about 65F early in the morning to 75F late in the lights on time. I think it will be another couple of weeks before any significant growth can occur.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Here is the glosso after one week. It is obviously growing. And, no algae that I can find.









I'm guessing that a couple more weeks is all it will take to get it grown in enough so I can fill the tank with water


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

hmm i don't know why but i cant see the pics you posted. glosso should take about 3-4 weeks to carpet a tank in emmersed conditions depending on how densely you plant it. it also helps to open the top every other day to let some fresh air/Co2 into your tank. good luck


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Two weeks after planting the glosso, here is how it looks:

















So, now what? I'm wondering if the plants will spread out or just keep growing taller. And, is this the time to add water, or is it critical when the water is added? I would really like to wait another two weeks before adding water, so should I shear these - "mow the lawn"? Or, perhaps cut the tips off and plant them too, to get a thicker growth? I'm open for suggestions.


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## Afyounie (Aug 10, 2007)

If I were you I would maybe trim it and plant the stems to get a thicker growth.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

This morning I trimmed some of the glosso plantlets. A surprise was the tiny amount of roots on them. Even though they are growing well and have over an inch of new growth on most of them, the root balls are very tiny, so they pull out of the substrate very easily. For the moment I am leaving the cuttings laying on the wet substrate, to see if they take root horizontally just laying there.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Interesting documentation you have going here Hoppy.


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## Jeff.:P:. (Nov 20, 2007)

Almost looks like they're not getting enough light.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The amount of light needed for emersed growth isn't all that clear to me. This is a 10 gallon tank with 30 watts of CFL bulbs over it, and it looks like moderate lighting, which is supposed to be all that glosso needs to do well submersed. A problem is that the light has to go through a sheet of glass, which is always coated with condensed water droplets, and that has to reduce the effective lighting. It isn't easy to remove the glass or I would have done so.


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

I used to have a 75 gallon tank (that I scored with the wooden cabinet stand for $25 for both!) that was setup as a terrarium for carnivorous plants for a while. They were bog plants that needed high humidity or else they would die. The terrarium was setup hydroponic'ish style w/ pots sitting in water. Anyway, the thinking of the people I learned from was if there is condensation dripping down the glass, the humidity is too high. Humidity can be regulated simply by the size of opening on top. For my setup, a tiny fan was also recommended. I bought a gadget to constantly read the humidity level so that I knew everything was in check. This setup worked really well for me. The point I want to make is you might want to make an opening so that some of the humidity can evaporate from your top glass and get better light.


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## Jeff.:P:. (Nov 20, 2007)

> A problem is that the light has to go through a sheet of glass, which is always coated with condensed water droplets, and that has to reduce the effective lighting


I think thats the issue. I found even with 5-6wpg the shaded glosso would start growing in the same manner. Also C02 I think is a huge contributer to small tight growth, I'm not sure how that works out in this application though. But if anything my money is on the moderate intensity light going through the glass.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I can always break the glass to remove it, and I may do that, but I'm reluctant to unless it is essential. I also considered trying 20 watt bulbs, but I'm pretty sure the heat would be too much for the plastic hood if I did that.


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## Jeff.:P:. (Nov 20, 2007)

Glass cutters? :laser:
Or just cut at the seam.. and you can put it back at night.
keep in the moisture :rain:


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I got the glass out by using a utility knife carefully worked between the plastic and the glass to cut the sealant. And, I installed 2 - 40 watt GE CFL's, with 6500K color temperature. That should give me close to double the light intensity, even though I can't tell that much difference looking at it. With the glass out, overheating is no longer as big an issue.


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## Jeff.:P:. (Nov 20, 2007)

Sweet. :happy: Can't wait to see some updated pics.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Three weeks. I trimmed some of the taller plants, planted a few with tweezers and left the rest just laying on the substrate to see if they root just as well that way. A lot of them did.










Next week I will be planting some rotalas in the open area, and adding the water back. This has been fun!

EDIT: I just noticed that a few posts back I said I installed 2-40 watt bulbs. That isn't correct. I installed 2-20 watt bulbs, for 40 watts total, up from the 30 watts total I had been using.


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## Rob Tetrazona (Jun 21, 2005)

Did your condensation on the glass lid issue get resolved? Has your glosso started growing horizontally yet?


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## CrimsonKeel (Sep 3, 2004)

Interesting
I have a spare 55 gallon i plan on doing this with but setting it outside in the summer like this


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

NeonRob said:


> Did your condensation on the glass lid issue get resolved? Has your glosso started growing horizontally yet?


I took the glass out of the "lid" so the light fixture is open to the tank now. That resolved that problem. But, now I have to add a lot more water every day to make up the evaporation losses. The glosso is starting to lay down a bit, so I expect the node roots will hold it down soon. As soon as I get my rotalas, next Tuesday night at our plant club meeting, I will plant them and flood the tank. All things considered I am satisfied with this as a way to start a tank.

Easy to plant those tiny little plantlets.
No floating up out of the substrate.
No algae problems while waiting for the plant mass to build up.
Very little work.
Very interesting process.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

keep us posted after you add water, it will be interesting to see how glosso adapts from a 'vertical' growth to more horizontal growth with runners....


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The little plants are now turning horizontal, and many have the node roots starting to attach to the substrate. I'm assuming the increased lighting is causing that welcome change.


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## Jeff.:P:. (Nov 20, 2007)

Good to hear.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

After 4 weeks, and now one day before I flood the tank, here is how the glosso is doing:










Most of the taller plants have now grown horizontal, with the roots at each node growing into the substrate. The clippings I tossed into the middle area that was left bare grew as well as those I had poked down into the substrate originally. The only exceptions are those that landed with the tops of the leaves facing down - they all wilted. I suspect you could plant glosso very easily by just dropping the two leaved nodes into the tank and using tweezers only to turn over those that faced down. Whether this would work with HC I don't know, but it seems it should.

Tomorrow I plant rotala in the large open area and flood the tank. Wish me luck!


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Nice going Hoppy. I've been following your thread with great interest. I'm going to be setting up the exact same tank in a couple of weeks! Perfecto hood, Diamond Black and Flourite Black Sand. I had a couple of questions which I was hoping you could answer.

1) How thick was your Diamond Black layer and how thick was the Black sand?

2) Did you need to dose/spray any ferts while doing this or did the Diamond Black provide the required nutrients?

3) In retrospect do you think the upgrade in lighting was critical to your success?

4) When you do flood your tank, what is your Excel dosage going to look like to prevent melting of emersed leaves? If this is a higher dose of Excel to prevent this melting, can it be phased down to lower levels over time without melting and the potential mess it might create in your tank? I'm asking because I'd like to start something similar but I'm hoping to dose Excel just once a week and not shoot for large amounts of plant growth.

5) Lastly, do you know if anyone has successfully grown Dwarf Hairgrass using this method, or if it is possible? Would anything need to be changed?

Sorry for the barrage of questions . I'm looking forward to hearing back from you. Good luck with the tank flooding!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Minor setback: I didn't get my rotalas at last nights plant club meeting. My supplier was so busy all day he forgot to bring them to the meeting. So, it will be a few more days before the "flood"!

My setup is: 3 pounds of Diamond Black (leonardite) which, as I recall, is about a half inch layer at the bottom. On top of that is a bag of Flourite black sand, which makes the total about 2 to 3 inches deep.

I have been squirting 20 ml of water on the substrate every day, until I removed the glass from the hood and increased the lighting to 2 20 watt bulbs. Since then it has been 40 to 60 ml of water a day.

For ferts, I already had a premix of KNO3, KH2PO4 and Equilibrium, mixed to dose 10 ml a week for a low light, non CO2, non Excel setup I had been trying. I dosed 20 ml of that once a week.

No question at all, the removal of the glass that was partly blocking the light, and the increase to 40 watts of light was a big difference. This has convinced me that screw-in CFL bulbs are likely to be about half as effective as linear fluorescent bulbs, even with the reflectors I use.

I'm still thinking about how to dose after I flood the tank. Tentatively, I will use Excel at the recommended 1 ml per gallon, plus KNO3, KH2PO4 and CSM+B, dosed per EI, except about once a week. This will mean weekly water changes will be necessary. I have no idea whether or not the glosso will melt, then switch to submersed leaf forms. That's something I will learn by doing.

I doubt that the lighting I have will ever produce fast growth of any plants, but I will wait and see.


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> Tomorrow I plant rotala in the large open area and flood the tank. Wish me luck!


sorry i had to delay that for ya, they are shipped though so you should get em tomorrow. Good luck!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

jazzlvr123 said:


> sorry i had to delay that for ya, they are shipped though so you should get em tomorrow. Good luck!


No problem, I found a tiny little crypt floating in the back of my 45 gallon tank today, so now I can use that in the 10 gallon tank too. Who knows what else might be lurking back there among the rampant growth of willowleaf hygro?


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## gardner (Apr 3, 2008)

interesting idea


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Hey Hoppy, thanks for your reply. Looks like I have the exact same substrate...3lbs of Diamond black and Flourite Black sand. Btw, regarding use of Equlibrium... My tap water has a KH of 4 degrees and GH of 8 degrees. Do you think I should need to use Equlibrium? or should weekly waterchanges be enough?

I can't wait to see your tank once it is flooded. Do keep this thread updated. I'll be especially interested in what dosing regimen works well for you in the emersed->submersed transition. Btw, when you mentioned Excel...did you mean the recommended dose of 1ml per 10 gallons? Thats what is listed on their website.

Good luck!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

orion2001 said:


> Hey Hoppy, thanks for your reply. Looks like I have the exact same substrate...3lbs of Diamond black and Flourite Black sand. Btw, regarding use of Equlibrium... My tap water has a KH of 4 degrees and GH of 8 degrees. Do you think I should need to use Equlibrium? or should weekly waterchanges be enough?
> 
> I can't wait to see your tank once it is flooded. Do keep this thread updated. I'll be especially interested in what dosing regimen works well for you in the emersed->submersed transition. Btw, when you mentioned Excel...did you mean the recommended dose of 1ml per 10 gallons? Thats what is listed on their website.
> 
> Good luck!


Oops! Yes, it is 1 ml per 10 gallons. Confusion is my normal state of being!

The premixed ferts I had set up already, that I used in this emersed setup, were for when the tank would not get water changes. Non-CO2, non-Excel tanks shouldn't get regular closely spaced water changes, because they introduce CO2 fluctuations that encourage algae to grow. But, when you don't change water regularly the plants can actually run short of calcium and magnesium (the GH can drop too low). So, regular doses of Equilibrium are good to counter that. But, this time I will use Excel, will be doing regular water changes, and I don't expect to use Equilibrium.

The problem I have with figuring out what is appropriate for fertilizer dosages is that I still have only a crude idea about how intense the lighting is, and it is the light intensity that drives the plant growth, which determines how much fertilizing is needed to keep up with it. Some time today I will probably sit down and figure out how I plan to fertilize. I have premixed solutions all set up now for my 45 gallon tank, so I expect I will just determine what dose of those solutions is appropriate and how often. This will probably be just standard EI dosing.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for your reply Hoppy. I think I will probably have to do the same once I set my tank up. Or I could take the easy way out and use your exact dosing regimen . 

Btw is dry dosing just at effective in the distribution of nutrients across the tank or is it better to predissolve the ferts? Also in my case of GH of 8 degrees, do you think that would work with weekly changes too? I don't have a good feel for what is a good GH,KH level and what levels one should target.

Regarding CO2 fluctuations causing algae growth in non CO2 tanks, does it also mean that once a week Excel dosing (instead of splitting it to once every other day) might also produce the same result in an Excel tank?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

orion2001 said:


> Thanks for your reply Hoppy. I think I will probably have to do the same once I set my tank up. Or I could take the easy way out and use your exact dosing regimen .
> 
> Btw is dry dosing just at effective in the distribution of nutrients across the tank or is it better to predissolve the ferts? Also in my case of GH of 8 degrees, do you think that would work with weekly changes too? I don't have a good feel for what is a good GH,KH level and what levels one should target.
> 
> Regarding CO2 fluctuations causing algae growth in non CO2 tanks, does it also mean that once a week Excel dosing (instead of splitting it to once every other day) might also produce the same result in an Excel tank?


Excel doesn't trigger algae growth as far as I know. But, algae evolved to favor its spores starting the growth cycle when the odds were the best for growing to maturity for reproduction, and fluctuating CO2 levels seems to be one of the triggers they use. 8 dGH or even less, is fine for general hardness, and if you are adding water for replacing the evaporation losses you probably will always have enough calcium. KH can be just about anything and be fine for growing plants.

My fertilizing routine will be based on using the premixes I use on my 45 gallon tank. Those are set up for daily dosing of all fertilizers. So, about 1/4 of the dosage for a 45 gallon tank would be about right for a 10 gallon tank. But, if I only dose the 10 gallon tank twice a week, I would need about 3 times as much per dose. So, where I dose 1 ounce per day in the 45 gallon tank I will dose 3/4 ounce twice a week in the 10 gallon tank, and add Excel per the bottle directions. This will be an EI method dosing.

You can dose dry or premixed with water. Both work fine for me. I went to the premix idea because I wanted to do daily dosing and the amounts per dose would then be so small as to be hard to measure easily. So, I use a 16 ounce bottle, holding 16 one ounce doses, and the total of each fertilizer in the bottle is 3/7 times 16 times the EI amounts recommended for 3 times a week dosing. It doesn't have to be exactly accurate, just approximately correct.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks a lot! I think that answers all my questions...oh well actually I still have another one . I hope you don't mind me picking your brains. I get a little obsessive and want to understand every little thing once I get into a hobby . I'm curious to know if you noticed or if anyone else has noticed advantages to dosing daily rather than once a week? I can see that dosing daily will keep nutrient levels relatively stable across the week while dosing once a week will lead to minor spikes and drop offs in nutrient levels. Have you observed this to affect plant growth with the once a week dosing giving rise to lesser plant growth/possibility of nutrient limitation and hence algae growth?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

orion2001 said:


> Thanks a lot! I think that answers all my questions...oh well actually I still have another one . I hope you don't mind me picking your brains. I get a little obsessive and want to understand every little thing once I get into a hobby . I'm curious to know if you noticed or if anyone else has noticed advantages to dosing daily rather than once a week? I can see that dosing daily will keep nutrient levels relatively stable across the week while dosing once a week will lead to minor spikes and drop offs in nutrient levels. Have you observed this to affect plant growth with the once a week dosing giving rise to lesser plant growth/possibility of nutrient limitation and hence algae growth?


I haven't seen any difference between dosing every other day or dosing every day, as far as the plants are concerned. I do the daily dosing so I don't have to try to remember which of the two solutions to dose each day.

I flooded the tank this afternoon. It is now planted with some rotalas, mostly Rotala indica, I think. When I flooded it only a couple of glosso plants floated out, so I'm pretty happy right now.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

It's looking great! I don't think you've mentioned this before, but what is your goal with this tank? Is it more just to test out growing glosso with Tom's technique? or are you planning to scape this a particular way? I can't wait to see how your tank grows out and also how the glosso deals with going from emersed to submersed.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm doing several things with the tank. First was trying the emersed carpet technique. Then, I'm going to try to learn how to prune rotala "bushes" to a shape for aquascaping. I'm trying to get a non-CO2 tank, with Excel as a carbon source, to grow well enough to evaluate it for possible use on my bigger tank. I'm testing the Flourite sand to see how well I like it. And, I'm trying Diamond Black to see if it acts as a nutrient rich substrate layer the way river silt does. Then, I'm trying to get clear in my mind how much light screw-in CFL bulbs provide. And, lastly, I added a heater to the tank to see if some of my problems getting plants to grow in it were caused by the temperature swings I was getting. It is a learning experience, in other words.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

That sounds like a nice experiment. The only problem might be that given the variables you are playing with it might be hard to pinpoint a particular observation to one of them...for example if the plants do well...it doesn't necessarily prove that the lack of heating in your other tanks was causing issues. However all in all it should be very informative and useful to see how this tank goes.

Regarding Diamond Black, I've actually been trying to read up on Leonardite and humic acids to understand the role of Leonardite in the substrate. I don't know if you've already read up on Leonardite so here are a couple of links which I thought might be helpful to you:

http://humintech.com/001/industry/information/faq.html
http://www.healthyhomemall.com/about-humic-acids.asp

I think the main point is that Leonardite doesn't act as a fertilizer in the conventional sense of being an N,P,K source for the plants. So Leonardite+Flourite will still not be as nutrient rich as something like Aquasoil. However the advantage is that it has a very high CEC, and is also a very good chelating agent thus making a lot of ions readily available to plants. Some of the other advantages are listed in the links.

So I guess it should be good for the plants but the tank should still be quite dependent on the EI dosing of the watercolumn for nutrients. The Diamond black should promote nutrient uptake however, and help plant growth.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

No doubt, when you change several things at once you can't be sure which change causes whatever effects you see. This isn't science. It is the combination of lots of experiences that can add to education - a matrix of experiences, so to speak. This makes it a little easier to evaluate the results.

The only reason I set up this 10 gallon tank is so I could try things, tear down and start over if I have a whim to do so, and gain experiences that help me decide the direction I want to go in the future with a bigger tank. For example: Tom Barr strongly believes that most of us will be more pleased with our aquarium if we cut back on the light, and even go non-CO2 to slow down what happens in the tank. That sounds good to me. But, when I tried it on the 10 gallon tank I just got bored with having so little going on in there. Bored enough that I have no further interest in trying that type of tank. (I would hate to have to re-do the bigger tank after discovering this!) But, in the back of my mind I have wondered if I over-slowed the tank by letting the temperature vary too much. I know an Excel tank will grow plants about 3 times as fast as non-CO2 does. So, now that I have a heater in there I can judge whether or not that was a big factor in the boredom of my non-CO2 tank. This won't prove anything, but it will shape my perceptions of what I saw.

The Diamond Black was cheap for use in a 10 gallon tank, but would be too expensive for a much bigger tank, in my opinion. But, I was curious about what it looked like, how easy it was to use, and how well it worked. I accidentally found the black Flourite sand in a LFS, and since it only takes one bag for a ten gallon tank this was an opportunity to see what I think of it. Unless I get compaction problems, gas pockets, etc. due to the fine particles, I will be ecstatic about it and will likely use it in the future for the bigger tank.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

I see your point. I was afraid of going totally low-tech for the same reasons you got bored of your low tech setup. I think Excel would be a good compromise. 

I received my bag of Black Sand (Flourite) yesterday and I really like how it looks. Hopefully it works well along with Diamond Black. Btw, I'm curious as to what you would use for a bigger tank for a substrate? You mentioned that the Diamond Black would run too expensive, and I'm assuming Aquasoil would be similar.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I really don't know yet what substrate I will use if I decide to scrap my present one or replace the tank with a better looking one. As I play around with substrates, etc. in the 10 gallon tank I expect the answer will show up before I'm ready to make that move.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Sounds great! Now I'll stop bugging you with my questions and let you focus on your lovely carpet of glosso . Thanks for all the info and advice Hoppy. I'll definitely post a tank journal thread once I get all my supplies and plants. When that happens I might be back to pick your brains


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Hey Hoppy. Any updates? How has the glosso been behaving post submersion? Are they continuing to grow and spread or did they go through a phase of slow/stalled growth? Also did you notice any melting of the leaves from emergent growth or does it look like it is going to be a smooth transition? 

Sorry for all the questions. I'm curious to know how things are going .

Cheers


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## vspec13 (Mar 19, 2008)

Is your glosso growing upward instead of sideways? Why is the aquarium so cloudy?


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

I suspect the cloudiness is from the flourite black sand. Since he just flooded it in those pictures, you'd expect some cloudiness from that. Btw, hoppy did you rinse out the flourite or just use it as is?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

It has been almost a week since the flood! The glosso is definitely growing, but growing mostly in height, not creeping along the substrate. Here is a picture:








The Aquaclear filter dumps water into the area where the substrate looks scooped out, and that has blown the glosso out of that area. Note also that GDA has already started on the ends of the tank, which tells me I have as much light intensity as the tank can take. The Rotalas have not really started growing yet, just standing up straight. Another week probably before any pruning is needed.

Should I shear the glosso now - mow the yard, so to speak? Would that encourage more low growth?

This is a substrate that has been in use for several months, so it was well cycled. The cloudiness is from adding the water, which, no matter how you do it, does disturb the substrate a little. I had rinsed the top layer of Flourite, but not the lower levels, so there was "dust" there to be released, but day after I flooded it, the water was clear.

I need to do a water change tomorrow, and clean the glass.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Hey Hoppy. It's looking good! As far as the trimming question, I do know that quite a few people who have grown very lush green carpets of Dwarf Hairgrass have mentioned that they always trim the grass short frequently which causes it to send out more runners. If you let it grow otherwise it tends to spend more of it's resources on growing taller. I would imagine that a similar thing might occur with Glosso. Also I guess it makes some sense from the plants perspective since it realises that it isn't getting more light by growing taller (due to being pruned down) and so it might spend more of it's resources in spreading out and wide by sending out runners.

Btw, why is it that the presence of GDA indicates that you are around the region of lighting threshold given your CO2/nutrient levels? I'm curious as to the logic behind it and what conditions cause GDA to come about.

My leonardite is coming in tomorrow and then I'm going to order the plants. So I should be setting my tank up within a weeks time. I'm really excited!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

All algae start due to light, more than anything else. The more light the harder it is to avoid the algae. GDA, in my experience, can be used to illustrate the intensity of the light striking the glass of the aquarium. Where the light is the brightest on the glass, the GDA grows the fastest. Getting GDA in less than a week, even though the tank is Excel dosed, tells me this is at least moderately high light intensity.

Maybe this is the time to try the anti-biotic method for killing GDA? http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ic-problems/50181-maracyn-gda-experiment.html http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200204/msg00691.html Why not do still one more experiment?


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Heh why not. I have read threads where people have had success with Maracyn. Btw, I don't know if the scooping of substrate is annoying you. If so, you could consider this simple DIY plastic bottle baffle for your HOB filter.

http://www.petfish.net/articles/Do-It-Yourself/currentkill.php

I use it for my filter and it works great and helps preventing my bettas from getting stressed out.

Thanks for the info regarding GDA. That makes a lot of sense. However if you had CO2 and the same lighting, why would the increased CO2 prevent the GDA from appearing for the same light levels? (I don;t know this for a fact, I'm assuming thats the case since some ppl use 3-4 WPG for CO2 tanks). Is it then more a case of the plants growing faster with the CO2 and out competing the algae?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you!!! That is an absurdly simple DIY project, but exactly what I need. As soon as I find one of those bottles, and there are plently laying around here, I will try it. The substrate scooping action of the Aquaclear annoys the H*** out of me.

About CO2: Here is how I understand it. With a given light intensity there is a maximum growth rate for both the plants and algae. But, in order to achieve that growth rate, they need an adequate supply of every single nutrient they use, including carbon. 

Algae spores begin to develop into algae when conditions seem conducive for them to be able to grow well enough for long enough to reproduce well. Two of the things that tell the spores that it is the right time are tiny amounts of ammonia in the water, and CO2 concentrations that don't remain reasonably constant.

So, once the light intensity is high enough that the plants can't get sufficient carbon from sediments, and other small amounts in the water, they no longer grow at the rate that the light intensity is driving them to. But, the algae are not limited by nutrients, because they have so little mass they need only minute amounts of nutrients compared to plants. The plants, if they grow fast, use up any ammonia from fish waste or plant matter decay almost instantly, but if the plants are short of needed carbon their growth either stops periodically or is too slow to use the ammonia so rapidly. This triggers the algae spores to start a new life cycle.


Algae don't really compete for nutrients, since they require such tiny amounts, but they do compete for light. When algae grow on a plant leaf they are taking the light that the leaf could use, and the algae are closer to the light, so it can grow faster.

I certainly don't guarantee that all of that is accurate, or even that it is the whole picture, but it explains a lot that I see, and is consistent with what I have learned.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Glad to know that the link will be useful for you. It is a very nice idea and it works amazingly well.

Thanks for the info regarding your understanding of Algae and CO2 dependence. That makes a lot of sense to me. There is one thing that has been bugging me though. I hope you don't mind if I pose a question to you in the form of a hypothetical scenario. I'd love to see what you think might be the answer to my question.

Let's say we have a planted (CO2) tank with 3 WPG lighting and no fish in it. We are carrying out EI on the tank and so the plants have all the nutrients they need and we perform weekly 50% waterchanges. The CO2 levels are such that it matches the demands of the plants for the current lighting levels. 

Now suppose we cut down the CO2 levels in the tank by 30-40% over a couple of weeks. The CO2 is still enough for the plants to grow, albeit slower than previously and none of the plants are dying/melting. So now you have a situation where there is still no Ammonia since there isn't any being generated by fish waste (no fish) and also none of the plants are dying. Also CO2 levels aren't fluctuating since we ramped down the level of CO2 gradually. In this situation, although the CO2 level is out of sync with what it should be for the current light levels in the tank, what would actually trigger the algae? Both the NH3 trigger and fluctuating CO2 levels concepts don't seem to apply in this case. Also since alleopathy isn't applicable to plants in tanks and algae, what would be the explanation for algae in such a scenario? Or would you not experience any algae?

I'd love to hear what you think might happen and why in such a scenario.

Cheers


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

orion2001 said:


> Thanks for the info regarding your understanding of Algae and CO2 dependence. That makes a lot of sense to me. There is one thing that has been bugging me though. I hope you don't mind if I pose a question to you in the form of a hypothetical scenario. I'd love to see what you think might be the answer to my question.
> 
> Let's say we have a planted (CO2) tank with 3 WPG lighting and no fish in it. We are carrying out EI on the tank and so the plants have all the nutrients they need and we perform weekly 50% waterchanges. The CO2 levels are such that it matches the demands of the plants for the current lighting levels.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting question. I think what would happen is that the plants would compete for the available CO2. By that I mean the fastest growing plants would get much bigger, leaving far too little CO2 for the other plants, which would become unhealthy. Then, those unhealthy plants would probably begin to die, generating the tiny amounts of ammonia that tell the algae to start growing on them.

While I don't believe algae compete with plants for nutrients, I'm sure plants compete with each other. One reason good water circulation is so important is to get nutrient rich water available to all of the leaves of all of the plants at all times. When we have poor circulation, in my experience, BBA gets going good, so BBA would likely also be the algae that would infest the unhealthy plants - just as it does with artificially low CO2 levels due to poor circulation. BBA does destroy plants, so those would generate more little peaks of ammonia, causing still other algae to start growing.

I know many people are growing plants with lower concentrations of CO2 than I have, but when I let mine drop, either due to too much unpruned plant mass, or just bad water circulation in general, I get algae, always including lots of BBA. Right now I badly need to prune my 45 gallon tank or I expect to experience algae problems there, even though I now dose Excel regularly.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thats a great answer Hoppy. I think that makes a lot of sense and is probably what would occur in such a situation. I forgot to consider the facts that plants try to out compete each other for nutrients. 

Btw, what do you have for setting up good circulation in this 10 gallon tank? All I will have is the flow being generated by the HOB filter (Aqua clear). Will that be enough for a 10 gallon tank? I could put in an air bubbler (since I'm anyways not doing CO2). Would that be a good idea?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The Aquaclear is all I have for circulation, but it seems to be enough to keep all of the leaves moving at least a little. A bubbler wouldn't do any harm, but I don't plan to try that.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks, I'll stick to the Aquaclear for now. Hopefully the baffle won't cause the water to stagnate too much. Btw, my Leonardite arrived! I've poured in my substrate and my tank is all ready to start the emersed growth experiment. I'm going to check my local petsmart today if they have any brand new Dwarf Hairgrass pots (they ship it in on Fridays). In general the quality of their plants is horrible, but I figure the newly shipped pot might still work. Besides it's not submersed growth so if they die, it won't cause me any major trouble. 

Hows the Rotala doing now? Has it finally taken off?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

orion2001 said:


> Thanks, I'll stick to the Aquaclear for now. Hopefully the baffle won't cause the water to stagnate too much. Btw, my Leonardite arrived! I've poured in my substrate and my tank is all ready to start the emersed growth experiment. I'm going to check my local petsmart today if they have any brand new Dwarf Hairgrass pots (they ship it in on Fridays). In general the quality of their plants is horrible, but I figure the newly shipped pot might still work. Besides it's not submersed growth so if they die, it won't cause me any major trouble.
> 
> Hows the Rotala doing now? Has it finally taken off?


The rotala looks ok, but isn't doing a lot of growing yet. I'm concentrating more on the GDA right now, and did a 50% water change yesterday.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Three weeks after flooding the tank, it looks like:









The clump of rotalas at the right is doing most of the growing in the tank. It now looks like:










The water is a bit cloudy today, after dosing traces and Excel. The growth has been disappointing. I am having a real hard time figuring out how intense the lighting is. The fact that GDA started growing so fast in the tank argues for high light intensity. But, the lack of serious growth contradicts that. I know Excel tanks have slower growth than CO2 tanks, but this is really sloooooow growth.

My next plan is to prune the plants, cutting the glosso to try to encourage more horizontal growth, and trimming the Rotala clump to about half height, perhaps replanting the cutoffs, to try to get some thicker growth there.

I am also thinking about going to full EI dosing, with dry ferts, to make sure it isn't a nutrient deficiency that is the problem. My Rotala planting introduced pond snails to keep my MTS company, and they seem to have thinner shells than I am used to seeing, so I think I will start using Equilibrium too. This tank has to do better than this.


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## orion2001 (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry to hear that you're not having great plant growth. From what other people seem to say, I think the pruning idea is a good one. I've been researching hairgrass, and everyone who has grown lush lawns has said that cutting them short promoted runner developments and made them grow shorter in height.

I think I'll wait a few extra weeks to get as lush a lawn as possible with my emmersed hairgrass setup. I guess I probably shouldn't expect crazy growth since I pretty much have the same setup as you. I guess one safe conclusion is that the Diamond Black hasn't been much use so far. Maybe it will still help in the long run...after it starts to break down a little.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

orion2001 said:


> I guess one safe conclusion is that the Diamond Black hasn't been much use so far. Maybe it will still help in the long run...after it starts to break down a little.


My Diamond Black has been in this tank, with water or with very wet emersed conditions, since last October. It it is going to break down at all I think it should have started by now. Perhaps it is one of those substances that looks great in theory, but not in practice. Or, it may be just as effective as other nutrition rich substrates, but not at all better, and the marginal light intensity and lack of CO2 is why the growth hasn't been notable.


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