# Foam in a can???



## JeffLL (Oct 20, 2006)

Has anyone used the DOW Chemical brand of polyurethane foam known as "Great Stuff" (or any other similar)? The Ecotoxicity from DOW's MSDS (material safety data sheet) seems to indicate that I should have no issues. Polyurethane is generally known to be non-biodegradable. If I am correct in my reading, the surface of the foam in contact with water will catalyze into a polyurea skin. Has anyone got a horror story? Or, better yet, a success story? Anyone have tips for working this goo 'live'? 

I intend to use the low expansion version, in the blue can, available at HDepot for a few bucks as a platform for a mini pond and river that flows overland in my paludarium. Also, the high density foam will be less 'floaty'. I will have to be certain to pin down the foam with a relatively big rock.

This stuff is STICKY!!! I have built a retaining wall to keep the LECA clay pellets supported as the primary 'land' substrate. I will create a bridge from the wall to the sump in the back left corner of the tank. But before I spray I am going to lay a sheet of Saran Wrap into the concavity of the wall into which the bridge will fit as the foam is sprayed in. If I screw up, or when I eventually tear down the tank, I do NOT want my wonderfully cloven granite pieces to be permanently marred by the tan foam. Similarly, I will lay down a layer of plastic over the Lexan face of the sump. Finally, I will set newspaper everywhere else, because this stuff is STICKY!!! I will NOT protect the LECA as it is cheap.

As I build the bridge/riverbed up I am going to push 'salt and pepper' granite garden stones into it, working very quickly as the foam sets up fast, layering in the foam successively upward. Ultimately, I should be able to build back and up to create a water wall that hides the sump, with the effect of the salt and pepper in suspended animation spilling down slope to the river. We'll see how well that works in a future post. I (hopefully) will not be using the foam, letting it dry, carving and shaping it, painting it, and coating with epoxy.

Thanx for your guidance:ballchain


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## iris600 (Feb 12, 2004)

I am also interested in this. I have a tank that I would like to use 'great stuff' topped with silicone (to stick rocks etc on for aesthetics) to make small "caves" for a Pelvicachromis species I am breeding. The flowerpots just aren't that aesthetic, and I think that they breed more readily in tanks that aren't bare bottom (mine will 'build up' media around entrances to their caves). The pelvicachromis are *so* dazzling in breeding colors, and with the dither fish the tank would be quite attractive if I were to create 'natural' looking caves that blended in with the aquascape.
I know they use greatstuff frequently in terrariums, including those housing dart frogs.


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## JeffLL (Oct 20, 2006)

*Pleviachromis? And Great Stuff too!*

I wonder if I will be able to keep Pelvis in a community tank that is populated by 'food' like neons, tetras, rosies, etc., in with clawed frogs and a turtle. First I will have to see what my water is like once the tank settles down for a few months.

As far as building the cave and sticking rocks on with silicone, just be aware that this will leave significant nooks and crannies where the rock meets the foam. I don't know if I am choosing a better path, but I have chosen to embed the rocks into the still wet and pliable foam. I am hoping to avoid the myriad of places where rotting organics can accumulate beyond the reach of the critters or flowing water. However, these nooks will probably make excellent hiding spots for fry.


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## schaadrak (Aug 18, 2006)

Cured polyurethane is safe, that's what a lot of the filter sponges are made of. And it uses water to make the polymer chains while curing, so yes the uncured parts that are in contact with water will skin over.

I'm a little confused about your description, though. Are you using the foam as the stucture and the granite as a facing, or the granite as the structure and the foam to bind the pieces together?

Either way, it sounds great and it'll be fun to see how your project unfolds.


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## JeffLL (Oct 20, 2006)

*Actually, both!*

As structure, and as super-structure, as adhesive, but not to the primary granite...

The foam as it runs from the back bottom left corner in front of the triangular (as seen from above) sump:

Upwards as superstructure for the waterwall into which 1" salt and pepper granite will be afixed into the uncured (still pliable and sticky) and uppon which I will impregnate the remaining interstices with black beauty coal slag;
Forwards along the bottom to the back of a freestanding fitted granite retaining wall where thin plastic wrap will be pressed into the stones' cavities to provide a release layer for the foam as it expands into these spaces conferring additional rear support, thence;

Upward to form the weir that flows 2/3 up the front of the retaining wall, 2/3 of the way from the front glass, underwater with the freeform weir hidden under layered granite, thence;

Rearwards, upstream, to the base of the waterwall here embedded with exclusively the coral slag as the spillway from a pool both pre-formed by the LECA that comprises the primary substrate.

I hope I can work fast enough before the foam loses tackiness. The above steps each seperately performed.

Water feed is another story.

Man!!! I gotta get my construction pix on line. But, if I do that now, and the wife comes home and I have not installed the ceiling fan, I am a dead man walking:icon_hang


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

My reply is a little late, but if you check out the Paludarium forum, many people have used "Great Stuff" in their paludarium constructions and have made waterfalls and fake "land" with it. =)


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## iris600 (Feb 12, 2004)

just a note- pelvicachromis would not be your biggest threat in that tank. A turtle would make a snack of the swimmies.


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## gpimm (Sep 17, 2006)

Should work fine. You are correct in that the foam is sticky, way sticky, and darn hard to remove from anything that it touches, including fingers... (don't ask...) Your plan for covering everything is good. 

The only bad thing I've run into is the control of the foam coming out of the can is dicey at best, and on ~20% of the cans used the foam would not stop once started. Crummy valves in the can. Maybe they have improved the valving some as it was 15 years ago (maybe longer, darn starting to feel old...) that I tried using GreatStuff.

Good luck and let's see some photos!

Gary


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Doesn't that foam keep on growing after it is out of the can? If it is the insulating foam that I used not too long ago it more than doubles in volume over about 30 minutes after it is squirted out. And, if you get some of this on the glass where you don't want it, is it easy to scrape off later?


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## JeffLL (Oct 20, 2006)

*Three Grades of Foam*

Iris, I am looking for an Eastern Painted Turtle, which shouldn't grow to more that 4 or 5 inches, max. Tortle-oo (my son names the critters) was never caught eating the fishes. However, as I have said before, if one keeps a carniverous tank, one must either keep cheap fish or have deep pockets. Me, I'm cheap. If I am truly lucky the water will allow me to breed food faster than it gets eaten.

gpimm, I am not merely planning on covering everything, I am going to tape the coverings in place! You are not the only one to get this on his/her fingers (ask how, but know I am in construction). Sticky is the entire point of its use for my project. The fact that it is nearly inert just makes the fabrication of the structure easier in that I don't have to coat it with epoxy.

Hoppy, there are three grades of Great Stuff, directly relating to the degree of expansion after application. Big gap is used to fill large cavities and grows to at least 8x volume, but becomes _relatively_ flimsy. Standard foam filler does not expand as much, but exerts enough force as it eeks out its last push that it will distort window and door frames. The version I will use is the densest and least expansive, only growing to double or triple the initial squirt if left to find its limits. When confined, the reduced amount of blowing agent exerts less pressure, and the foam gets a chance to stiffen before becoming fully distended. This stuff is often used with styrofoam (expanded polystyrene or EPS) as glue, because, except for epoxy as the one common alternative, it does not melt the styro.

To any who will use the goo - keep acetone on hand. Not nail polish remover which _used_ to be acetone. Acetone will disolve the uncured polyurethane. Keeping a 1 qt takeout soup container (OUTDOORS) to rinse the dispensing straw and the nozzle will allow an opportunity to squirt, work the material, and squirt again and again, building up gradually. NOTHING disolves cured polyurethane. It is NOT biodegradable. It IS waterproof. It ONLY comes off your hands along with the skin it is stuck to. And it is probably the only thing I have found that is (almost) as hard to get off a surface as silicone caulk/adhesive.
_____________________________________________
A fool and his money bought a ton of swampland in Florida. I met him. He re-sold the land for a tidy sum, and is now retired.


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

> Keeping a 1 qt takeout soup container (OUTDOORS) to rinse the dispensing straw and the nozzle will allow an opportunity to squirt, work the material, and squirt again and again, building up gradually.


Cool. So, what's in the 1 qt container? Soap? Dishwashing soap? or Acetone? I've always just considered them one-use. Do what I've got to do and toss what's left in the can, because the nozzle fills up tight. Any more detail would be Great! I hate throwing that stuff away!

TIA


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Naja002 said:


> Cool. So, what's in the 1 qt container? Soap? Dishwashing soap? or Acetone? I've always just considered them one-use. Do what I've got to do and toss what's left in the can, because the nozzle fills up tight. Any more detail would be Great! I hate throwing that stuff away!
> 
> TIA


Ditto that question. I have used as little as 10 percent of a can and tossed the rest.


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## elaphe (Aug 24, 2006)

JeffLL said:


> I am looking for an Eastern Painted Turtle, which shouldn't grow to more that 4 or 5 inches, max. Tortle-oo (my son names the critters) was never caught eating the fishes. However, as I have said before, if one keeps a carnivorous tank, one must either keep cheap fish or have deep pockets. Me, I'm cheap. If I am truly lucky the water will allow me to breed food faster than it gets eaten.


About the only fish that can stay alive in my turtle tanks are Chinese algae eaters and zebra danios. I still loose some on occasion, but they last longer than anything else. I have three turtle tanks, Yellow-belly slider, Texas Map, and Southern painted. They are all very good fish catchers. The slider and map chase them down. The painted waits and ambushes them. I also try and keep lots of floating plants in there for them to much on (arachris, riccia, frogbit, duckweed, and hornwart). None of these grow much before the turtles eat them up.

Just keep in mind that all they think about is eating!

Good luck. Post some pics when you get it all done.

Brian


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## JeffLL (Oct 20, 2006)

Acetone in the (soup) container works fine. Be quick to immerse, and patient to soak. Scrunch the tube (without kinking it) and put the lid on. Shake it up, maybe a couple of times, and by the time you need it again it will be ready. Be SURE to let the acetone evaporate before emitting new foam.

WARNING - What do you intend to do with the resulting fouled acetone? If you spill it into the environment (shame on you) it is generally toxic. I do not pretend to suggest how to properly dispose of any hazardous product. Properly means the first person you should ask is your sanitary engineer (garbageman). Our service takes literally anything (they call it battleship service, if you can put a battleship on tour lawn, they will take it), as long as it is properly labeled.


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## schaadrak (Aug 18, 2006)

JeffLL said:


> WARNING - What do you intend to do with the resulting fouled acetone?


I put mine in my coffee. It gives me that extra little ¤☼ZAP!☼¤ I need to start my day. rogar-Si


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