# New! Amazonia : (



## dabrybry

Anyone else had problems with this New Amazonia causing severe muddiness? The first time I filled the tank, it was pretty cloudy and stayed cloudy for about 2 weeks. After a rescape it filled up completely muddy despite my efforts to fill it as slowly and carefully as possible with as little disturbance to the substrate as possible. >: / Frustrated with this right now as I'm afraid I'm going to have to tear down the tank again, shop vac all this mud out and use something else after paying ~75 dollars for this dirt


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## Bunbuku

Sorry about your experience. I used the new Amazonia for new 60-P layout (both regular and powder type). No issues with cloudiness at all. In fact, IME the water is way clearer that with original Amazonia or Amazonia II. After almost 3 weeks, I don't even have any issues with algae despite being a lightly planted tank.


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## dabrybry

Perhaps I got a defective batch. I've had great experiences before with aquasoil 1. This is just ridiculous though : /


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## Bunbuku

Did your bag have the new ADA logo? I'd talk to the seller. If its ADG, they are really a great bunch of folks. In case you haven't, check out the the first 2 of their how to videos linked on their site.


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## dabrybry

Yeah got it directly from ADG. I have faith in them to help me this. In past. They've always extremely helpful.


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## ddavila06

i have that problem with the old one. is so dissapointing and looks so crappy. IM THINKING OF GETTING RID OF THIS NOW! 
so i guess this was a problem before uh?


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## houseofcards

What kind of water do you guys have soft/hard? I've never had any problems with cloudy water using AS I or AS II. Did have problems with AS II falling apart, but water was always crystal from the beginning.


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## dabrybry

I used 100% RO/DI water to fill up. I'm not too sure if that had anything to do with it, but I can't imagine that it would. I could deal with the cloudiness I got from the first fill up, even though it lasted ~2 weeks. But after rescaping, it seemed that once it got wet it lost all structural integrity and would just melt into mud between my fingers :/ . Been running the tank with no filtration or water movement of any sort for almost 2 days now and it hasn't really cleared up at all....Still looks like chocolate milk tank.


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## ddavila06

yeah, lots of dirt/mud at the bottom...falls apart super easy... can move anything or a cloud will raise, i have a fluval 404 running and if no movement it clears it up but it just means the muddy stuff is at the bottom...


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## houseofcards

One thing u can't do is play in the tank after fill up. What I mean is rescape and move things around. If u do dig up something u need a filter hose in hand and suck the 'cloud' right out, followed by a WC. Not saying your doing that, but just wanted to throw it out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dabrybry

Is this a normal thing for aquasoil? Or did we just get defective bags : /


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## Bunbuku

i used RO/DI water in mine too. It was reconstitued with Equilibrium to a GH of 3, KH is 0. I ran my canister filter immediately after the tank was filled as well. Not sure what happened in your case. 

Can you try puttind some Amazonia in two glass tumblers fill slowly with your RO water and another with tap and see which breaks down?

IME with 3 types of Amazonia plus Africana, I had no issues with cloudy water at setup.


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## ddavila06

houseofcards said:


> One thing u can't do is play in the tank after fill up. What I mean is rescape and move things around. If u do dig up something u need a filter hose in hand and suck the 'cloud' right out, followed by a WC. Not saying your doing that, but just wanted to throw it out there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah, is true but what i ment to say is that the amount of debri is way more than that of the dirt/debri that accumulates in any of my other set ups..even when moving plants and stuff...usually a little dirt pops up but this clay like mud that is there a day after water change again...


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## dabrybry

I didnt move a simple sprout of glosso after filling it up. And I don't mean this to be a complaining thread about ADG or ADA or any of their products. I still stand behind their products and trust that they'll do what it takes to help me resolve this.


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## dabrybry

Well I got a chance to talk to Frank from ADG about my problem a bit this morning. We discussed the nature of the substrate and I came to realize that this is not a "convenience" substrate. If you want to use something convenient and easy to use, buy pool filter sand or some other inert gravel like substance. However, if you're serious about aquascaping and really enjoy it you shouldn't mind having to deal with a problem like this. When I first set my tank up it was relatively clear and I was seeing explosive plant growth. I guess you have to decide if you want to use something easy, or if you want to use something that will promote healthy, vivacious, long term health and plant growth for your plants. I'm going to do what it takes to clear the water up, and keep enjoying the healthy tank that I'm sure I'll have after I resolve this and the tank matures


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## Left C

I wonder if you got some bags that were mislabeled. It sounds just like Amazonia II was in those bags.


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## Ernie Mccracken

dabrybry said:


> However, if you're serious about aquascaping and really enjoy it you shouldn't mind having to deal with a problem like this.


Says who? The guy selling it? Shocking. My two major expectations of a premium priced product like aquasoil is that it be nutrient rich and convenient to use. Many _serious_ hobbyists, self included, went away from ASII due to the well documented degradation issues. "New" aquasoil promised to address those complaints, and if it doesn't, where does that leave us?


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## dabrybry

Ahh god you're right Ernie. I was trying so hard to justify the money I spent on this stuff lol. So what do you prefer to use? Inorganic, inert? Or something similar to AS without the degradation issues? A friend of mine has had good results with crushed black volcanic gravel. Very similar overall look to eco complete, but completely inert. What do you guys think? I've also been tossing around the notion of ditching the petrified wood I've worked so hard to gather and trying my hand out at a dutch style aquarium


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## Left C

What about one of the many versions of Seachem's Flourite? There are Black, Black Sand, Dark, Red and Original. Look at the Planted Substrates in this link: http://www.seachem.com/Products/Gravel.html


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## niko

I'd use anything that I find in the local pet store that says "Planted tank". They are all the same but will give you the opportunity to get involved in active discussions about their weird behavior or lack of effect whatsoever.

Interaction is part of the fun in this hobby.

Please don't get all worked up about my ironic tone. Bottom line is - inert is the best way if you do not want AquaSoil. Put some peat under it and some activated carbon and be patient for 4-6 months. There will be no difference from any other substrate. Including AquaSoil.

--Nikolay


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## dabrybry

Mayhaps I'll just go back to using eco complete. Used it for years without any problems whatsoever and always had great results from it. Trying something new is always tempting though.


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## Muirner

I'm suprised you had such a bad experience. I used AS I in my 55G setup, no powder type, and it still looks great, and is doing really well.


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## dabrybry

Yeah i was too! Update btw, the tank is STILL chocolate milk status. Been running the filter with carbon and purigen in it for almost 2 weeks now. No water changes due to a cracked rib and the doc said I can't lift anything over 10lbs : /


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## jciotti

Sounds like you have a water/flow bypass issue in your filter and it isn't taking out what you initially kicked up. I've used literally hundreds of lbs of AS in my time and never had this issue unless my filter wasn't working correctly. 

I find it funny that most people are quick to blame or assume a product isn't working without trying to find other reasons first. 

Amano has an entire gallery filled with AS and his tanks aren't cloudy, nor are the thousands of aquariums in every other country that happen to use AS like every grand prize winning IAPLC entry.

Also I have a brand new 60-P with the "New" AS normal and powder type and my water is more clear then almost any tank I've seen in person.


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## Left C

dabrybry said:


> Yeah i was too! Update btw, the tank is STILL chocolate milk status. Been running the filter with carbon and purigen in it for almost 2 weeks now. No water changes due to a cracked rib and the doc said I can't lift anything over 10lbs : /


Instead of using buckets for your water changes, have you thought about getting a Python no spill and fill water change system? They come in different lengths plus some accessories. Plus, they make water changes quick and easy. Aqueon and Lee also have similar systems, but I haven't used these. I have a 25ft Python kit plus a 25ft extension because my aquariums are in different rooms.


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## jciotti

Left C said:


> Instead of using buckets for your water changes, have you thought about getting a Python no spill and fill water change system? They come in different lengths plus some accessories. Plus, they make water changes quick and easy. Aqueon and Lee also have similar systems, but I haven't used these. I have a 25ft Python kit plus a 25ft extension because my aquariums are in different rooms.


He might be using RO water, I know I don't use tap on my plant tanks. This would make it next to impossible to use a Python.


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## Left C

jciotti said:


> He might be using RO water, I know I don't use tap on my plant tanks. This would make it next to impossible to use a Python.


You are right. I went back in this thread and found that it said that "100% RO/DI water" was used for fill up. I have very soft water where I live and tap water is fine. The Python sure makes life easy.

RO/DI water ??? RO water is different than DI water. But anyway, it should not be the problem.



dabrybry said:


> I used 100% RO/DI water to fill up. I'm not too sure if that had anything to do with it, but I can't imagine that it would. I could deal with the cloudiness I got from the first fill up, even though it lasted ~2 weeks. But after rescaping, it seemed that once it got wet it lost all structural integrity and would just melt into mud between my fingers :/ . Been running the tank with no filtration or water movement of any sort for almost 2 days now and it hasn't really cleared up at all....Still looks like chocolate milk tank.


From: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/79167-new-amazonia.html#post596584


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## jciotti

Left C said:


> You are right. I went back in this thread and found that it said that "100% RO/DI water" was used for fill up. I have very soft water where I live and tap water is fine. The Python sure makes life easy.
> 
> RO/DI water ??? RO water is different than DI water. But anyway, it should not be the problem.
> 
> From: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/79167-new-amazonia.html#post596584


Good find, I still tend to believe it is something other then the soil causing the issue.


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## dabrybry

Well, I sort of gave up on it anyways. Purigen, carbon, lots of small water changes...The best I was able to reduce it to was a orange'ish tea color that was still rather opaque. Tank has been drained and cleaned and is ready for eco-complete to go in.


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## ddavila06

dabrybry said:


> Well, I sort of gave up on it anyways. Purigen, carbon, lots of small water changes...The best I was able to reduce it to was a orange'ish tea color that was still rather opaque. Tank has been drained and cleaned and is ready for eco-complete to go in.


switch it. i just did, yesterday  
i tried flora max black, and it looks great! but is not all black, is mixed with red but it looks good
i used flora max, the regular one with eco complete in my other tanks and im very happy with the results


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## Se7eN

No problems here. Looks great for me.


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## Blackwater

My otocinclus died in the tank with the Amazonia substrate. I'm thinking of replacing my gravel with something else. This sucks


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## JustLikeAPill

I have to stick up for Amazonia on this one... If the amazonia is what indeed killed it, I would say it was user error (rescaping without adding ammonia neutralizer perhaps?) and not the amazonia it's self. Amazonia is not a convenient substrate. You have to be careful with it and plan ahead because it has a lot of ammonia in it. Things like rescaping can release that ammonia and kill fauna unfortunately 

It has happened to be too many times and I have learned my lesson... plan ahead. 

Or maybe your otto just died? It happens.


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## Left C

Whatever happened to "Azoo Plant Grower Bed?" AES has it for listed for $19 a bag or $16.72 for 4+. I've seen it for sale at $29.07 per bag elsewhere.

EDIT: The black version is more expensive at MarineDepot. http://www.marinedepot.com/Azoo_Pla...Substrate-Azoo-AZ11026-FWPCPG-AZ11041-vi.html


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## Bunbuku

In my recent iwagumi with the "new" Amazonia it took 4 weeks to complete cycling to undetectable levels of NH3 and NO2. Only then did I add Amano shrimp and o'cats. A week later, in went a 10 red phantom tetras. All livestock are doing fine.

Water remained clear through out the cycling period.


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## Bunbuku

Left C said:


> Whatever happened to "Azoo Plant Grower Bed?" AES has it for listed for $19 a bag or $16.72 for 4+. I've seen it for sale at $29.07 per bag elsewhere.


I used the brown Azoo Plant Grower Bed to setup up 2 low tech nano shrimp tanks (Fluval Specs). The flora consists of mainly red and green C. wenditii, DHG and Staurogyne tropica.

Unlike the Amazonia, I added the shrimp about 24 hrs after the tank was setup as it not supposed to have a NH3 spike. Just to be sure, I substituted Seachem Renew for the carbon pack that came with the Spec. Shrimps (CBS/CRS and tigers in the other) are doing great also.


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## jciotti

I put berried CRS and all my fauna in the day I poured in the substrate, no deaths.

Ammonia only kills your fauna if the ph is over 7 or is ridiculously out of line (way out of new AS range)

A very quick read
http://nippyfish.net/bettas-101/all-about-water/ph-ammonia/

To sum it up, if you have a problem with a new layout or AS the problem is you, not the soil. Learn to read directions or find them where available, read an AquaJournal magazine online or talk to someone with experience.


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## JustLikeAPill

.... I have killed God knows how many shrimp due to rescaping. Admittedly it was all my fault. You aren't really supposed to mess with aquasoil once it's in and the tank is cycled... I take responsibility for that.

but my PH was 6 and I have used two different pH tests.. so ammonia certainly can kill animals with a pH of 7 or under.

It is just less toxic at lower pH levels... but it's still toxic.

I don't understand how you put fauna in the tank the same day as the substrate if you were using Amazonia... I have put fauna in a month after adding soil and doing water changes daily and they died because there was still a small amount of ammonia.


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## jciotti

JustLikeAPill said:


> .... I have killed God knows how many shrimp due to rescaping. Admittedly it was all my fault. You aren't really supposed to mess with aquasoil once it's in and the tank is cycled... I take responsibility for that.
> 
> but my PH was 6 and I have used two different pH tests.. so ammonia certainly can kill animals with a pH of 7 or under.
> 
> It is just less toxic at lower pH levels... but it's still toxic.
> 
> I don't understand how you put fauna in the tank the same day as the substrate if you were using Amazonia... I have put fauna in a month after adding soil and doing water changes daily and they died because there was still a small amount of ammonia.


I follow Amano's guidelines and perform daily 80% water changes. I've never had an issue.


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## houseofcards

I've used AS1 and AS2 and never had a problem with water clarity. In fact my tanks were pretty much crystal from the getgo. One's idea of soil disturbance is very subjective, so although one might think they didn't disturb the substrate during setup they might actually have. I've even seen reports of people rinsing the stuff and then stating their water is cloudy. 

With that being said the issues with AS2 breaking apart are true and although I experienced this it never affected water clarity, I just didn't like it cosmetically. 

I've also never used AS products in hard water so I don't know if that has a 'real' effect on this issue. 

Most of these issues are user made. Could be as blantant as rinsing the soil or as minor as replanting a stem and creating too much mess. Whenever I need to move some AS around I always have a filter hose in my hand and suck the mess right out, followed by a water change. Dedication and discipline in my view makes the largest difference between success an failure regardless of what products you use.


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## jciotti

houseofcards said:


> I've used AS1 and AS2 and never had a problem with water clarity. In fact my tanks were pretty much crystal from the getgo. One's idea of soil disturbance is very subjective, so although one might think they didn't disturb the substrate during setup they might actually have. I've even seen reports of people rinsing the stuff and then stating their water is cloudy.
> 
> With that being said the issues with AS2 breaking apart are true and although I experienced this it never affected water clarity, I just didn't like it cosmetically.
> 
> I've also never used AS products in hard water so I don't know if that has a 'real' effect on this issue.
> 
> Most of these issues are user made. Could be as blantant as rinsing the soil or as minor as replanting a stem and creating too much mess. Whenever I need to move some AS around I always have a filter hose in my hand and suck the mess right out, followed by a water change. Dedication and discipline in my view makes the largest difference between success an failure regardless of what products you use.


I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Francis Xavier

With all respect:

I always find these issues a bit baffling, only because we go through pallets of Aqua Soil at ADG and never once have ever run into these issues. Amazonia I, II, NEW! Amazonia, we've always been able to set up with no issues at all, each and every time. 

The exact formula we follow:

Substrate additives (bacter 100, clear super, etc) on the bottom.
A layer of power sand over the additives (leaving a 1 inch gap between power sand and the front pane of glass so it doesn't show up at the front), this layer is about 1-2 inches in height.

A layer of Aqua Soil Amazonia that ranges anywhere between 3 inches to however many is needed for the layout.

Add Hardscape - driftwood, stone, etc. 

add touch portions of Amazonia Normal type where applicable.

Add a one inch layer of Powder type Amazonia to cap it all off.

It should ALL BE DRY at this point.

From there, use a spray bottle to gently moisten the soil, making back and forth passes to evenly spread the spray of water across the whole aquascape, and begin planting.

Continue to plant and moisten the soil until all planting is done. 

Once planting is complete, put a strainer at the end of a hose, and place the strainer so that the end point of it is touching the soil, do this in a corner, usually a front corner where the soil is at it's lowest point.

Then very slowly TRICKLE water into the aquarium. This should minimize any disturbance of the soil.

As you are filling, small pieces of Powder type will float to the top, use your spray bottle and "hit them" with a spray and they will sink to the bottom.

Complete process until the aquarium is full.

There should be an ever-so-slight haze in the aquarium from filling.

Turn on the filter (we pack the canister filter with NA Carbon, Bio Rio and Purigen), within 20-30 minutes the water should be crystal clear. 

At the end of the day, all Aqua Soil's and true nutrient rich substrates are kiln-fired clay / mud substrates, and they will always try to revert back to their mud-like state and hence don't enjoy being messed around with, so keep rearranging to a minimum, or you end up with some mud every now and again. When we replant something major, we typically drain the aquarium to do any major moving around to minimize any impact that could occur.

For the first week we do a daily 80% water change.

For the second week we do an 80% water change every 2nd day.

For the third week we do an 80% water change every 3rd day.

For the fourth week and onwards we do an 80% water change once a week.


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## jciotti

Thank you Frank, I've been telling this to people for years on end and most fail to listen. If "YOU" have a problem with your soil "YOU" have a problem, not the soil.



Francis Xavier said:


> With all respect:
> 
> I always find these issues a bit baffling, only because we go through pallets of Aqua Soil at ADG and never once have ever run into these issues. Amazonia I, II, NEW! Amazonia, we've always been able to set up with no issues at all, each and every time.
> 
> The exact formula we follow:
> 
> Substrate additives (bacter 100, clear super, etc) on the bottom.
> A layer of power sand over the additives (leaving a 1 inch gap between power sand and the front pane of glass so it doesn't show up at the front), this layer is about 1-2 inches in height.
> 
> A layer of Aqua Soil Amazonia that ranges anywhere between 3 inches to however many is needed for the layout.
> 
> Add Hardscape - driftwood, stone, etc.
> 
> add touch portions of Amazonia Normal type where applicable.
> 
> Add a one inch layer of Powder type Amazonia to cap it all off.
> 
> It should ALL BE DRY at this point.
> 
> From there, use a spray bottle to gently moisten the soil, making back and forth passes to evenly spread the spray of water across the whole aquascape, and begin planting.
> 
> Continue to plant and moisten the soil until all planting is done.
> 
> Once planting is complete, put a strainer at the end of a hose, and place the strainer so that the end point of it is touching the soil, do this in a corner, usually a front corner where the soil is at it's lowest point.
> 
> Then very slowly TRICKLE water into the aquarium. This should minimize any disturbance of the soil.
> 
> As you are filling, small pieces of Powder type will float to the top, use your spray bottle and "hit them" with a spray and they will sink to the bottom.
> 
> Complete process until the aquarium is full.
> 
> There should be an ever-so-slight haze in the aquarium from filling.
> 
> Turn on the filter (we pack the canister filter with NA Carbon, Bio Rio and Purigen), within 20-30 minutes the water should be crystal clear.
> 
> At the end of the day, all Aqua Soil's and true nutrient rich substrates are kiln-fired clay / mud substrates, and they will always try to revert back to their mud-like state and hence don't enjoy being messed around with, so keep rearranging to a minimum, or you end up with some mud every now and again. When we replant something major, we typically drain the aquarium to do any major moving around to minimize any impact that could occur.
> 
> For the first week we do a daily 80% water change.
> 
> For the second week we do an 80% water change every 2nd day.
> 
> For the third week we do an 80% water change every 3rd day.
> 
> For the fourth week and onwards we do an 80% water change once a week.


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## Bunbuku

Pretty large water changes! That's probably why you can add animals so soon. I was more conservative with water changes so maybe that is why it took a month. Nonetheless I am more than satisfied with the performance of "New" Amazoniaeace: 
Oh and I did not have Purigen on hand and did not want the have my traces adsorbed by the carbon. Seachem Renew is great low cost carbon alternative during the setup.



Francis Xavier said:


> With all respect:
> 
> For the first week we do a daily 80% water change.
> 
> For the second week we do an 80% water change every 2nd day.
> 
> For the third week we do an 80% water change every 3rd day.
> 
> For the fourth week and onwards we do an 80% water change once a week.


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## Left C

Quite a few people leave out the beginning steps below and only use Amazonia.


Francis Xavier said:


> ... The exact formula we follow:
> 
> Substrate additives (bacter 100, clear super, etc) on the bottom.
> A layer of power sand over the additives (leaving a 1 inch gap between power sand and the front pane of glass so it doesn't show up at the front), this layer is about 1-2 inches in height. ...


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## ddavila06

jciotti said:


> Thank you Frank, I've been telling this to people for years on end and most fail to listen. If "YOU" have a problem with your soil "YOU" have a problem, not the soil.


so what your saying is that the substrate is perfect? but didnt ada just change out to a new amazonia because the old one had issues? think about it buddy...sounds rude the way you say it.

my issue was not clowdy water but dirty substrate. it always looked very dirty down at the substrate level, regardless of the number of water changes and stuff...i didn't move plants either. just looked as if it was falling apart all the time. my issue was with the old stuff...


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## Francis Xavier

You don't necessarily need to add the additives - I included them to try to be as specific as possible in our method for setting up Amazonia. Like I said, I'm just baffled that people are encountering issues when we haven't run into the same issues - and given the volume of aqua soil we use on a regular basis, we would have gotten those bags that broke down if there was a chronic problem at one point or another.


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## Left C

I have a couple bags of original Amazonia that I'm going to test drive really soon now. I'll most likely pass on the extra goodies. No extra money right now. I do have some charcoal to put on the bottom and I'll get some mulm from the LFS. I do have some Canadian Spaghnum Peat Moss and some Osmocote Plus that I can sprinkle on the bottom too (probably not needed though).


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## dabrybry

I'll use amazonia again sometime in the future. But for now I'm too inexperienced to set a scape up and be happy enough with it to let it just sit and fill in for months. I usually rescape 2-3 times before I'm completely satisfied with the tank which aquasoil really doesn't like. Great soil, just not for an impatient, inexperienced hobbiest


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## jciotti

Hey guy, listen to what I'm saying then, before you INSULT the wrong person with your "buddy" remarks!

ADA didn't change the soil because it was wrong, ADA changed the soil because people can't follow directions. The soil was fine the first time around, stop using the product incorrectly and listen to people who actually know what they are talking about.

What happens in the real world! People add to many ferts, ADA takes out nutrients. People setup tanks incorrectly, filling with water first then mess up the substrate by planting afterwords. What does ADA do? ADA has the clay fired differently to stop people from having this issue. This list goes on and on forever about more things then just ADA soil.

On a side note, don't interject with your beef about a product that doesn't even pertain or hold relevance to the conversation at hand. This is a conversation about "new" Amazonia not your "old" Amazonia, you will confuse people!



ddavila06 said:


> so what your saying is that the substrate is perfect? but didnt ada just change out to a new amazonia because the old one had issues? think about it buddy...sounds rude the way you say it.
> 
> my issue was not clowdy water but dirty substrate. it always looked very dirty down at the substrate level, regardless of the number of water changes and stuff...i didn't move plants either. just looked as if it was falling apart all the time. my issue was with the old stuff...


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## Cavan Allen

Let's keep it friendly here. It would be a shame to have to lock this.


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## ddavila06

my apoligies Cavan and to the other guy and all other APC users.


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## jciotti

All smiles over here, no issues =)


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