# Going Porcelain



## johnwesley0

I've been experimenting with a ten gallon Chinese porcelain bowl as a suitable aquarium over the years. I'd had pretty good success using a Fluval cannister set up and a couple of sprigs of _anubias barteri _ The bowl gets about an hour of direct sunlight a day. Things were fine until I started experiencing a series of nitrogen cycle crashes long before I properly understood what cycling actually meant. But, since Jan 4, 21 I've had terrific results using nothing more than a container of old bio media from the old setup and the addition of about 4 lucky bamboo plants (a fifth got water-logged and died.) Just gravel substrate; the curved walls of the bowl direct all fish waste to its center where there is now a thin layer of mulm. The parameters have been stable for nearly six weeks: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 15-20 ppm nitrates. Not quite sure how to attach a photo, but I like the conservatory look it lends to my Brooklyn flat. The only Con is that the silica in the porcelain tends to attract diatoms.


----------



## johnwesley0

So, one question came up on another fish forum concerning the role of beneficial bacteria (BB) in the water column. The other forum which can safely be characterized as a Nitrogen Cycle hub, the insistence is that BB only exist on _things_ : the bio-media, substrate, decorations, etc. And, that the water column has to be filtered through it. But, I question that since I've had no filtration for almost two months and cycled fairly quickly (two weeks) with nothing more than 7 gallons of standing water and five zebra danios. Oh, and four lucky bamboo plants. Is it possible for lucky bamboo to convert that much ammonia that quickly or can "floating" bacteria contribute its share to the nitrification process?


----------



## mistergreen

You can see floating bacteria if your water is cloudy, otherwise, they're on surfaces most times.
Yes, plants love ammonia.


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> You can see floating bacteria if your water is cloudy, otherwise, they're on surfaces most times.
> Yes, plants love ammonia.


Thank you, that makes complete sense. Of course, water would have to be pretty nasty looking to have that much bacteria floating around. :smile: As for plants and ammonia, it now becomes clear why I was able to go for months and months without ever changing water when I was a youngster and why everyone on the other fish forum is obsessed with it. When I was young, all of my tanks were heavily planted. You could buy cobomba, vallisneria, and sagittaria pretty easily and every fish book recommended them - but, never because of their role in the nitrogen cycle. It was because you were afraid your fish would suffocate for lack of oxygen. I think I gradually got away from plants as my obsession with filtration grew over the years. Glad to be back to the natural world!


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Healthy plants, especially emersed ones like your lucky bamboo, take over the role of beneficial bacteria and biofiltration in fish-only tanks. We don't even "cycle" Walstad tanks in the usual sense of the term.

Please post pictures of your bowl.


----------



## johnwesley0

You can see the old bio-media cartridge at 9 o'clock. I can probably toss it, right?


----------



## johnwesley0

Just tested the parameters again and there's been very little change: 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and 20 ppm nitrates. It's been three weeks since the last water change.


----------



## johnwesley0

Just tested the parameters again and have noted a nitrate level that appears to be bumping up against the 40-80 ppm level. That's after 5 weeks without a water change. So, some water change appears to be in order.

Likewise, there had been some concern about the ph creeping up in alkalinity since the beginning of the month. Today it measured 753 on my LED pen. As I've mentioned in other threads, I live in Brooklyn and I'm not accustomed to having alkaline water. So, I've removed my ancient and revered sea shell rock pending the water change. By the way, is fish poop acidic or alkaline? I forget. Perhaps, a good gravel rinse is in order, too?

All in all, I'm delighted with how things are coming along. If anyone had told me I could maintain a tank with five fish and no mechanical filtration for over two months l would have not have believed them.

Btw, that smudge at 9:00 is where the rock used to be. I can't decide whether that is leftover diatom or bacteria? I thought I would leave it for now.


----------



## Michael

Nice!

Yes, you can take out the old biomedia. Yes, do a water change. You probably don't need to do anything about the smudge. Add more emersed or floating plants. I like frogbit for things like this. It has attractive floating foliage and you can easily thin it when needed. And unless you need the glass cover for some specific reason, take it off for better gas exchange and access to atmospheric CO2.


----------



## johnwesley0

The glass cover habit is one that I picked up while growing up in Jamaica, NY where the water supply is completely separate from the rest of New York City and was notoriously hard and brackish. Thus, I lived in fear that evaporation made the water column more salty. So, just how much do I have to worry about adding water to top off evaporation generally?


----------



## Michael

All of my tanks are open top and my tap water is hard. I top up the tanks whenever they need it, and do a large water change three or four times a year.


----------



## johnwesley0

Michael said:


> All of my tanks are open top and my tap water is hard. I top up the tanks whenever they need it, and do a large water change three or four times a year.


Thanks, Michael. I actually prefer the bowl open. The open pool look is why I chose to go porcelain in the first place!


----------



## mistergreen

Goldfish were kept in large porcelain bowls in ancient China. Goldfish & koi were bred to look good from the top view.


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> Goldfish were kept in large porcelain bowls in ancient China. Goldfish & koi were bred to look good from the top view.


I've had reasonably good luck with both in this bowl. At some point, however, they both will benefit from being in a larger tank (at least 20gal.) And, the poop level might be a little too much for a walstad tank; the koi definitely needed a cannister filter.


----------



## mistergreen

Yes, koi definitely go into a pond when they're large enough.


----------



## johnwesley0

So...it's been 3 months since the beginning of this set-up and I am over the moon by the results so far. No filter. No artificial light. Stable parameters. I've gradually added six glo-fish danios that easily present as tiny goldfish when viewed from above and they couldn't be happier. I've just completed a 20% water change after 3 weeks and the nitrate level appears to have been reduced from ~40 ppm to between 10-20 ppm.

One of the more interesting recent developments is the ongoing battle between the duckweed/wolffia and the beneficial bacteria that is slowly making a return to lower left-hand side of the bowl. They seem to take turns waxing and waning, depending on conditions above the water line. The duckweed appears not to like condensation and has visibly melted since I started covering the bowl again with a glass top. The lucky bamboo seemed okay with it. As an experiment, I'm going to start leaving the bowl uncovered again.


----------



## johnwesley0

Fascinating update on the _wolffia_ vs. beneficial bacteria (BB) battle. I left the bowl unattended for 10 days while I took a holiday away from the city (I've been fully vaccinated.) When I returned, I realized to my horror that I had not correctly turned on the automatic feeder. My six danios were perfectly fine, but they had effectively resolved my wolffia problem. Their disdain for vegetables which had been evident when it was first introduced about six weeks ago was quickly set aside when no other food source was available.

Not coincidentally, IMO, the beneficial bacteria has taken over one side of the bowl. I have now been a member of the APC community for two months and I'm rather jealous of the focus on exotic plants. One of these days I'd like to start a dirted tank. But, in the meantime, I wonder whether there is some way I can adjust things in my low-light, low-tech porcelain bowl so that plants (_any_ plants) are more competitive with the BB for nutrients? I'd like to make it completely filterless but I'm beginning to realize that part of the problem is that porcelain seems to be a BB magnet.

I'll add a snapshot when the sun gets a little higher, later in the day.


----------



## mistergreen

Floating plants and water lilies/lotus are your best bet. You can place the water lilies/lotus bulb in a smaller pot of a little dirt and cap with gravel. You want plants that look good growing out of the pot.
You might want to remove the Anubias out into an aquarium because the floating plants will block out the light.


----------



## johnwesley0

Haha! Finally got some dirt in my bowl. It feels good. The pot contains a white lily bulb (_nymphaea_.) It's already sprouted some stems. The water may be too deep for it at this point so I may put the miniature milk crate back in and lift it up a little. Also, the pet store owner sold me on giving the floating plants another shot. He says, this isn't duckweed but I'm not going to split hairs:


----------



## mistergreen

Welcome to the world of dirt. The lily will grow as tall as the needs. The dirt might give the floating plant enough nutrients to survive.


----------



## jatcar95

Looks like the floaters are maybe salvinia minima, they're great (and much less messy than duckweed)!


----------



## johnwesley0

I spent most of yesterday worrying whether the packing media the lily bulb/rhizome came in was peat moss because it never occurred to me to switch it to a different substrate. My tap water is already pretty soft and I know from experience that filtration tends to lower ph over the long run. So, I got up this morning perfectly prepared to replant the lily when upon close examination, I realized its tiny leaves are already unfolding:










Guess I'll leave well enough alone?


----------



## johnwesley0

I'm starting to see why people enjoy dirted tanks so much. Dirt adds a whole other dimension to the hobby. So, this morning's mission was to order the API KH/GH test kit. I've been guessing at my water's hardness and alkalinity by proxy for too long and I'm beginning to realize that I have a growing adolescent lily in my bowl. Guessing may no longer be good enough. So, back went the seashell rock which was also prompted by a sudden drop in PH from ~730 to 703.

I think the peat in the lily pot may be the culprit here. I lifted the entire pot out of the water in order to tuck in some root tabs. I actually did it several times and the result was that with each lifting, the tannins dripped from the bottom of the pot like a perking coffee maker.

The tannins will clear up, I'm sure. I'm not worried about it. But helping those lily leaves to reach the surface of the water is now my chief goal.


----------



## mistergreen

The tannins won't clear unless you remove them.


----------



## johnwesley0

Got it. Hoping that with regular 20% water changes every few weeks it will dissipate. Trying hard not to let the discoloration make me crazy. Also, hoping that once the lily looks healthy and strong, I can just re-pot it. Here's the little darling on Day 3 in her new home (I've already decided she's a girl.)


----------



## dwalstad

Cute little lily! I wouldn't worry about the tannins. There part of the swamp effect where lilies thrive.


----------



## johnwesley0

Been playing with the water hardness test kit since it arrived shortly after lunch. It confirms what I already intuited, that my water is very soft, probably too soft for the most exotic aquarium plants. It also explains why the neighborhood pet stores carry such a small selection (_annubias, _and lucky bamboo, as it happens, being among the most popular.)

My KH is about the same in bowl water and tap - 3-4 dKH

But, my GH is almost 5x greater in the bowl than right out of the faucet 1 dGH versus 5 dGH.

The recent addition of some peat and re-addition of the sea shell rock to the bowl are confounding factors. The PH seems to have stabilized at 7.03. It took the rock a few weeks to pull the PH up to 7.5 before I got nervous. Perhaps, I should just let it do its thing before I do anything more drastic (like repotting the lily into some Miracle Gro?)


----------



## mistergreen

What soil is the lily in now?


----------



## johnwesley0

Oh, it's the peat moss that came with the packaging. That's one of the confounding factors.


----------



## mistergreen

What's in the pot? Just gravel?


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> What's in the pot? Just gravel?


Just gravel.


----------



## mistergreen

Oh, the lily will live off the bulb but after a while it’ll need nutrients.


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> Oh, the lily will live off the bulb but after a while it’ll need nutrients.


That sounds reasonable. In the meantime, I'll keep an eye on the KH level. If the sea shell rock isn't raising it sufficiently by the time the lily reaches 6 inches (the approximate distance to the surface) I'll consider adding some crushed coral or something. I have the _salvinia _to think about too.


----------



## johnwesley0

Today marks Lily's first week in her new home. So, like any proud parent I'm sharing a photo:









The PH is still dropping, I assume because of the peat moss packed around Lily's bottom. The dKH is 6; the dGH is stuck at 4. And, even though I know the water hardness and alkalinity are more important, it's the dropping PH - 6.9 - that is making me nervous; it was 7.3 just a week ago.


----------



## mistergreen

PH is 6.9? That’s not a problem. Your dKH will stabilize the pH.


----------



## mistergreen

BTW, you can insert root tabs into the pot instead of using dirt for nutrients.


----------



## johnwesley0

That's good to know. At some point, I would like to just repot the bulb without all of the peat moss. I feel stupid not asking the store manager what kind of soil it was before I planted it.


----------



## jake37

When i was searching about this topic i came across a paper that measured beneficial bacteria in the tank (it was really focused on substrate vs filter) and it found that the bulk of the bacteria was in the filter in material like the sponge and the substrate didn't have that much.
-
However the paper didn't really answer the question of what is sufficient beneficial bacteria and if it will reside on plant matter or similar. I know there are a lot of people with larger tanks (300,400+ gallons) that can run a tank just fine without a filter as long as there is adequate circulation (one discus keeper was telling me about his 400 gallon tank). This doesn't really answer your question nor does it answer the question of where the beneficial bacteria is in his tank (he had a very strong pump (I think it was 800gph but maybe 1500gph) that pulled the water from the bottom (the tank had two holes in the bottom - one input to the pump and the other output but no filter connected to the pump). The description isn't exactly accurate because there is a raised inlet outlet connected to the two bulkheads that goes above the substrate.
-
Anyway I'm not sure the beneficial bacteria is actually in the water column but i'm pretty sure it does require some circulation of the tank water.
-
It still begs the question just how much do you need. In my smaller tanks (40b and smaller) i just use sponges but my larger tank (120) i do use an fx6.
-
Also i think a bit depends on fish load. 5 zebra danios is pretty low bio load.



johnwesley0 said:


> So, one question came up on another fish forum concerning the role of beneficial bacteria (BB) in the water column. The other forum which can safely be characterized as a Nitrogen Cycle hub, the insistence is that BB only exist on _things_ : the bio-media, substrate, decorations, etc. And, that the water column has to be filtered through it. But, I question that since I've had no filtration for almost two months and cycled fairly quickly (two weeks) with nothing more than 7 gallons of standing water and five zebra danios. Oh, and four lucky bamboo plants. Is it possible for lucky bamboo to convert that much ammonia that quickly or can "floating" bacteria contribute its share to the nitrification process?


----------



## johnwesley0

jake37 said:


> When i was searching about this topic i came across a paper that measured beneficial bacteria in the tank (it was really focused on substrate vs filter) and it found that the bulk of the bacteria was in the filter in material like the sponge and the substrate didn't have that much.
> -
> However the paper didn't really answer the question of what is sufficient beneficial bacteria and if it will reside on plant matter or similar. I know there are a lot of people with larger tanks (300,400+ gallons) that can run a tank just fine without a filter as long as there is adequate filtration (one discus keeper was telling me about his 400 gallon tank). This doesn't really answer your question nor does it answer the question of where the beneficial bacteria is in his tank (he had a very strong pump (I think it was 800gph but maybe 1500gph) that pulled the water from the bottom (the tank had two holes in the bottom - one input to the pump and the other output but no filter connected to the pump). The description isn't exactly accurate because there is a raised inlet outlet connected to the two bulkheads that goes above the substrate.
> -
> Anyway I'm not sure the beneficial bacteria is actually in the water column but i'm pretty sure it does require some circulation of the tank water.
> -
> It still begs the question just how much do you need. In my smaller tanks (40b and smaller) i just use sponges but my larger tank (120) i do use an fx6.
> -
> Also i think a bit depends on fish load. 5 zebra danios is pretty low bio load.


Thank you very much for returning to one of my earliest questions. When I took out my old bio rings which had just been sitting at the bottom of my bowl in their old basket, I thought - as you did - "They're not doing me any good there. Might as well put them away until I need a filter again." But, nearly five months after my last successful nitrogen cycle, I have no idea what's maintaining my nitrate level at 20 ppm despite 8 or 9 partial water changes of 20% each?


----------



## jake37

First I think you should measure ammonia and not nitrate to determine the effective of the beneficial bacteria however since the fishes are doing well it is clearly adequate. I suspect as long as your tank has good circulation it will do just fine. With only 5 danio i am a bit surprise the nitrate level is so 'high'. Do you have anything in the tank consuming nitrate (like plants) ? My 5 gallon tank which has a small sponge filter has nitrate of around 2ppm. In this tank i have 6 neon - 4 ember - 20ish mystery snail (young) and a some shrimp:








--
By the way there is a paper that compares media for holding bacteria and bioballs and ceramic rings are not that great - i believe the most effective was K1 media (in a mbr - the mbr part is important) followed by sponges. Anyway as long as there is some circulation i suspect the rocks (substrate) is just fine for the low fish population.


----------



## johnwesley0

I guess it depends on one's perspective. With no mechanical filtration whatsoever, I'm surprised my nitrate level is so _low._ But, you're right, my ammonia level has been a consistent 0 ppm since January. The only conclusion I can make is that the plants (such as they are) are being outcompeted by _something _for the available ammonia otherwise there would far less nitrate.
BTW, it looks from your snapshot that you have enough plant growth to explain the low nitrate level of your tank. As Diana has explained in one of her journal articles, plant uptake of ammonia factors into amino acids not nitrate.


----------



## jake37

Well as we've noted 5 danio is very very low bio load.... so probably not generating much nitrate.


----------



## johnwesley0

jake37 said:


> Well as we've noted 5 danio is very very low bio load.... so probably not generating much nitrate.


I like your tank. Do I detect a water lily in there somewhere?


----------



## dwalstad

_"When I was searching about this topic I came across a paper that measured beneficial bacteria in the tank (it was really focused on substrate vs filter) and it found that the bulk of the bacteria was in the filter in material like the sponge and the substrate didn't have that much." _

I'm guessing that this paper dealt with typical tank containing a gravel or sand substrate. If so, there would be very little bacterial activity of any kind in the substrate. In contrast, a gram of soil contains Zillions of bacteria. 

Jake37's tank has nice plant growth, good lighting and floating plants. Could be the reason his nitrates are so low. Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth in the Chinese bowl. Window light may not be enough.

I'm running all of my 8 tanks without filters. Plants, fish, and shrimp are all doing really well. Nitrates are zero. 

Goal for NPT tanks is to encourage enough plant growth to remove the ammonia before it's converted to nitrates. Nitrification competes with plants and reduces their growth. Denitrification is not that efficient and it produces nitrites. Folks, let's keep the focus on plant growth, not filters and denitrification.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

What’s your average growth rate in a npt @dwalstad? Mine is in a sunlit window with a reasonably bright led and I dose like 3ppm nitrate of nilocg thrive c


----------



## Noahlikesfish

I have a little growth on my crypts and wisteria


----------



## johnwesley0

Noahlikesfish said:


> What’s your average growth rate in a npt @dwalstad? Mine is in a sunlit window with a reasonably bright led and I dose like 3ppm nitrate of nilocg thrive c


I think this is an interesting question (the whole issue of nutrient dosing for low tech set-ups) and probably deserves its own thread.

EDIT: Oh, I see you already started one:








Ei dosing in a partially dirted tank?


@dwalstad i have a good question for you, do you know if it would be okay to ei dose with a 2/3 dose of nilocg thrivec which gives about 3 ppm nitrate because when I was gone on vacation my tank sitters ei dosed my tank every other day with nilocg and my plants had a explosion in growth, i would...




www.aquaticplantcentral.com


----------



## jake37

You raise and interesting tangent topic. Plants actually prefer ammonia as a fertilizer and i wonder at what point they can consume the ammonia fast enough that it never gets a chance to break down to nitrate...



dwalstad said:


> _"When I was searching about this topic I came across a paper that measured beneficial bacteria in the tank (it was really focused on substrate vs filter) and it found that the bulk of the bacteria was in the filter in material like the sponge and the substrate didn't have that much." _
> 
> I'm guessing that this paper dealt with typical tank containing a gravel or sand substrate. If so, there would be very little bacterial activity of any kind in the substrate. In contrast, a gram of soil contains Zillions of bacteria.
> 
> Jake37's tank has nice plant growth, good lighting and floating plants. Could be the reason his nitrates are so low. Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth in the Chinese bowl. Window light may not be enough.
> 
> I'm running all of my 8 tanks without filters. Plants, fish, and shrimp are all doing really well. Nitrates are zero.
> 
> Goal for NPT tanks is to encourage enough plant growth to remove the ammonia before it's converted to nitrates. Nitrification competes with plants and reduces their growth. Denitrification is not that efficient and it produces nitrites. Folks, let's keep the focus on plant growth, not filters and denitrification.


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> Jake37's tank has nice plant growth, good lighting and floating plants. Could be the reason his nitrates are so low. Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth in the Chinese bowl. Window light may not be enough.
> 
> I'm running all of my 8 tanks without filters. Plants, fish, and shrimp are all doing really well. Nitrates are zero.
> 
> Goal for NPT tanks is to encourage enough plant growth to remove the ammonia before it's converted to nitrates. Nitrification competes with plants and reduces their growth. Denitrification is not that efficient and it produces nitrites. Folks, let's keep the focus on plant growth, not filters and denitrification.


I am a complete convert @dwalstad. Until a few months ago, I thought the sole function of plants was simply to supply oxygen to the aquarium via photosynthesis. EPA disabused me of this and your groundbreaking wiki article Plants and Biological Filtration - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki, knocked the ball out of the park, as far as I was concerned.

Thank you for your reply. I realize now that trying to speculate where the bacteria in my Chinese bowl may be colonizing is a little like trying to arrive at the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. They are likely everywhere. The goal, so far as bacteria are concerned, is to compete with them for ammonia and ammonium with the addition of plants. The more plants, the longer I can go without water changes. That part resonates like a big brass bell.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Should I just unplug my filters and pray my fish don’t die? I know my friends keep big fish like gymnotus in like 20-40g Tanks (some gymnotus like javari centipede glass or like caparo are smaller and thinner and less active) with only like peace lily and pothos and no filter. Also my friends have kept fish like stiphodons and swelia species and other gobies/loaches with just a powerhed a couple terrestrial plants and no filter


----------



## johnwesley0

Noahlikesfish said:


> Should I just unplug my filters and pray my fish don’t die? I know my friends keep big fish like gymnotus in like 20-40g Tanks (some gymnotus like javari centipede glass or like caparo are smaller and thinner and less active) with only like peace lily and pothos and no filter. Also my friends have kept fish like stiphodons and swelia species and other gobies/loaches with just a powerhed a couple terrestrial plants and no filter


I would say, "Why not?" In Brooklyn where I live, plants are hard to find locally and you have to know of a mom-and-pop store in Chinatown (I'm not joking) before you can come across floating plants, emergent plants or anything more interesting than lucky bamboo. Sadly, most ordinary hobbyists settle for artificial plants and the most expensive mechanical filter they can afford. And, my point is this: They still wind up having to perform frequent water changes or their fish will die. One of my best friends probably cycles through a hundred fish a year and all the while, the water in her 10 gallon tank remains crystal clear! Meanwhile, I'm up to six zebra danio glo-fish and - at the most - a partial water change every two weeks and they are perfectly happy, never come to the surface except to gobble food and the whole thing has been completely off the grid since January.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Ok


----------



## mistergreen

johnwesley0 said:


> I would say, "Why not?" In Brooklyn where I live, plants are hard to find locally and you have to know of a mom-and-pop store in Chinatown (I'm not joking) before you can come across floating plants, emergent plants or anything more interesting than lucky bamboo. Sadly, most ordinary hobbyists settle for artificial plants and the most expensive mechanical filter they can afford. And, my point is this: They still wind up having to perform frequent water changes or their fish will die. One of my best friends probably cycles through a hundred fish a year and all the while, the water in her 10 gallon tank remains crystal clear! Meanwhile, I'm up to six zebra danio glo-fish and - at the most - a partial water change every two weeks and they are perfectly happy, never come to the surface except to gobble food and the whole thing has been completely off the grid since January.


I know the Chinatown store you speak of  I used to take the LIRR up to Oyster Bay and see lots of creeks & ponds full of wild aquatics, mostly the American water Lily.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

i want to make a oyster reef


----------



## johnwesley0

jake37 said:


> You raise and interesting tangent topic. Plants actually prefer ammonia as a fertilizer and i wonder at what point they can consume the ammonia fast enough that it never gets a chance to break down to nitrate...


I'm no expert, but I'm going to go out on a tremendous limb and say that it depends on the tank. For example, I am trying to transition from a tank that is already producing nitrates at a not insignificant level (~20ppm). That means, whatever plants I have must compete that much harder for the available ammonia. I have to imagine that a virgin NPT that has never been through a traditional nitrogen cycle has a much simpler task in terms of consuming ammonia. The plants, in effect, have no natural competitors.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Does lower ph inhibit plant growth? I believe that if you used like purigened tannin water (removes color not ph and anti microbial) in a non cycled tank wouldn’t you have explosive growth? Because the ph would be too low to grow algae/bacteria but not plants


----------



## johnwesley0

Noahlikesfish said:


> Does lower ph inhibit plant growth? I believe that if you used like purigened tannin water (removes color not ph and anti microbial) in a non cycled tank wouldn’t you have explosive growth? Because the ph would be too low to grow algae/bacteria but not plants


My understanding is that purigen removes preammonia organics. That's the opposite of what you'd want in a walstad tank, if I understand it correctly.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

eh you could try other ways to dip the ph like vinegar


----------



## johnwesley0

Noahlikesfish said:


> eh you could try other ways to dip the ph like vinegar


Oh, I see. You're basically asking whether crashing your cycle will cause plants to experience a growth spurt. Interesting experiment. You wouldn't want critters in the water when you try it.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

How do I uncycle my tank @dwalstad will the sunlight kill it? I want to have a lot of plants in my tank with no competition


----------



## mistergreen

I think you're heading in the wrong direction chasing maximum growth in a low-tech tank.
For maximum growth, grow in emersed or inject CO2.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

How long do you think it will take for my plants to start emerging themselves? I wanna do it emerging so they can be in the tank. My crypts are pearling


----------



## mistergreen

Grow them out of the water, I mean, but keep the soil and air wet, humid. Growing Crypts emersed is counterproductive though. Works well for stems and carpeting plants.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Do you have any idea how long it would take for a sunlit and 3000 lumen planted tank with stems to reach the surface which is like 6” away? And should I do water changes? I’m doing 2 pumps daily of thrive c (has co2) and like 3 ppm nitrate and other traces. Also should I do a 50/50 mix of tap water and rodi? (The new fridge we got has a fresh rodi filter) I have hard water and I was considering doing it so I can get more nutrients and co2 into the water


----------



## Noahlikesfish

I also stuck my bacopa underwater.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

It’s like 8 hours with the 3000 lumens light (it’s more like 2000 I’d say because 1 is like 8” one is like 16” and one is 24” above the tank (it’s a lamp)


----------



## Noahlikesfish

And from 8 am-noon it gets sun so 12 hours of light


----------



## mistergreen

Grow them like terrestrial plants. Not sure how I can communicate this simpler. Soil, plant, air, cover.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

I don’t wanna do emersed culture until summer though, it is too cold to do it now.


----------



## johnwesley0

Hello - Discussion Starter, here. Looks like we've turned into a "How to Transition to Dirt From an Established Tank" all-purpose thread - which is great.

Two weeks into the purchase of a water lily rhizome, it does seem to have stalled out, undoubtedly due to the lack of sunlight as @dwalstad has pointed out. I was hoping it would have sent out a vertical shoot or two by now. But, right now it looks more like a miniature geranium. Mind you, it isn't _dying;_ it just isn't exploding.

My main concern is a rather persistent 0.2ppm ammonia spike that seems to have coincided with several events:

1) the purchase of my sixth danio.
2) the sudden appearance and subsequent wiping clean of a suspected diatom colony.
3) the introduction of a small clump of peat moss packed around the lily rhizome.
4) the use of several root tabs underneath the lily rhizome.

It could be one of the above or all of them in combination that is causing the NH3/NH4 spike. I've already replanted the rhizome once into a pot of pure gravel; the only other step that I have any control over (other than returning one of the fish) is to repot the lily for a second time, but without any artificial fertilizer. How long will the rhizome continue to nourish it all by itself?

The _salvinia minima _look green and healthy and I should probably double up on them since they only cover about a quarter of the bowl's surface.

I'm actually very excited by all of this as it seems to suggest that the entire ecosystem is at some sort of tipping point as the plants, animals and other living things duke it out over what water conditions will prevail.
Here's a snapshot:


----------



## mistergreen

0.2ppm isn't too bad. Putting a light over the plants should help them soak up the ammonia.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

The same thing is happening in my tank. The microfauna populations are building algae is building but plants are pearling and starting to grow. I’ve gotten 1-2 new segments on my ludwigia and wisteria and new leafs in my crypts and anubias. Also bacopa growth. Should I shut out my window so I can only get less Algae. My lily is also growing. All fish are doing well. One has a raggedy tail and another one just won’t open it’s tail but it’s doing fine. My fish peck at the surface but i don’t think it’s gulping. I’m gonna add some ro soon


----------



## mistergreen

What root tab and how much did you use?


----------



## Noahlikesfish

I just added the rodi. How long until I s noticing changes. I added like 2 gallons into like 5 gallons. my tank has like 3” of substrate and then 2” of height away from the rim so it’s like 7 gal and I had 5 when I added new waterl tomorrow or something I might do a 50% wc with a 50/50 rodi so I can get my tds under 200. I can’t measure the tds so I just have to pray I’m not overdoing it. if I just do 50/50 ro tap water it will be under 200 tho


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> What root tab and how much did you use?


Me? I'm embarrassed to say. Remember the old Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc (did they merge into API?) yellow aspirin-sized tablets? They're about a gazillion years old and I just happened to still have a bunch left. I used three.


----------



## johnwesley0

johnwesley0 said:


> Me? I'm embarrassed to say. Remember the old Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc (did they merge into API?) yellow aspirin-sized tablets? They're about a gazillion years old and I just happened to still have a bunch left. I used three.


And the grade reads : 2-9-13


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Api is aquarium pharmicuticals inc


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Wait mars owns glofish?


----------



## johnwesley0

Noahlikesfish said:


> Wait mars owns glofish?


Not that I know of. What makes you say so?


----------



## Noahlikesfish

wait HUH it’s owned by spectrum brands and they own Remington gun company, tetra and marine land what the heck


----------



## johnwesley0

Happy to report that after a few partial water changes the NH3/NH4 level is back to 0ppm. Had a long talk with one of the floor helpers at a big aquarium store on Delancey Street and they had trouble identifying the packing medium the water lily rhizome came in. He swore up and down that it wasn't peat moss. And, I have to admit that it doesn't smell like any peat moss I've ever bought in the past. Could it be humus?

Also, he wasn't able to help in terms of finding the right lighting solution for my bowl. Since all of the aesthetic value takes place at the surface of the water, I'm kind of reluctant to cover it with a hood or the miniature catwalks that modern LED lights hang from. Surprisingly, they carried no single bulb LED lights. He also discouraged me from resorting to the color purple on the color spectrum as it would cause bba.

So, I restricted myself to an $8 purchase of what looks like duckweed (he didn't know the name of that either), barely enough to make a dent on a surface now dominated by _salvinia. _ As result of my experience with the store clerk, I spent a lot of time online finding what I wanted and I'm presently awaiting delivery of a 4000 lumens screw-in bulb that I will just use as a room light directly above the bowl. It won't be on any kind of timer which limits my options for when I go away, but I'm hoping it still allows me to keep my status as a low-techie!😁


----------



## johnwesley0

What do you think? Too far away?


----------



## Noahlikesfish

Little closer probably.


----------



## mistergreen

You probably need a floor lamp that will look nice in your place, something like this








Hampton Bay Matte Black and Antique Brass 55in. Industrial Balance Floor Lamp AF48587 - The Home Depot


Inspired by mid-century modern design, this floor lamp is the perfect addition to any living room, bedroom, or office. It is crafted in matte black and antique brass metals for a classic look and feel.



www.homedepot.com


----------



## Michael

Yes, much too far away! The lamp needs to be no more than 12" to 18" above bowl. Mistergreen's suggestion is great, and buy a simple plug-in timer for it. Start with about 8 hours a day, then work up slowly until you see good growth without too much algae. Water lilies flower in my tanks with the lights no more than 3" above the water surface.


----------



## johnwesley0

Better?


----------



## mistergreen

Nice! That should work. If you get too many algae, you can always lift up the light 12".


----------



## Endler'sGame

Nothing of value to add but I just really enjoy this setup, very inspiring!


----------



## Noahlikesfish

How much is that bowl I might buy one for myself


----------



## Noahlikesfish

I need somewhere to breed feeder guppies or shrimp


----------



## johnwesley0

Endler'sGame said:


> Nothing of value to add but I just really enjoy this setup, very inspiring!


I owe so much to the NPT community for allowing me to pick its brains!



Noahlikesfish said:


> How much is that bowl I might buy one for myself


I'd tell you but, I've had this one for almost twenty years and I'm 99% sure you can find them online for a lot cheaper than I paid back in the day.


----------



## mistergreen

A big porcelain bowl is not super cheap. There are $30-$50 large ceramic pots at the hardware store but they either have holes in the bottom for drainage or I'd be wary of heavy metal (lead) glaze on it. It's not good for fish & shrimps. You might be able to find a cheap plastic pot.


----------



## Noahlikesfish

I might just use a plastic bin. All I need to do is breed ghost shrimp or Store them until i can get predatory fish (if I get some) off of live


----------



## Noahlikesfish

i might just do a huge daphnia culture in a tub


----------



## mistergreen

yup, I bred dwarf crayfish in a 15G plastic bin before.


----------



## johnwesley0

So, I decided now that the lighting system is in place, it could be a good time to *re-dirt *the water lily pot. Thank goodness it's only a pot and not an entire tank of substrate that I'm dealing with!

This time around, I used the contents of an old plastic pot that had been sitting on my window sill for years. I didn't bother to mineralize it. Just tried to de-clump it as much as I could by crumbling it in my hand and pouring some conditioned water over it and letting it drip out through the hole in the bottom of the container.

I've learned from my first experience, with the suspected peat moss, not to get too nervous when the PH slips a couple of notches or the NH3/NH4 level isn't quite 0ppm. A few days of partial water changes will bring things back to baseline. The lily's clay pot is capped both on the bottom and top with ordinary, mid-century modern gravel. My working assumption is that as the lily takes off (as it already appears to be doing), that it and the *decomp *from the dirt will eventually catch up with each other.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it (for now. LOL.)

UPDATE: Interesting. Day 2 of the lily repotting and the NH3/NH4 level is stable. PH is dead level 7.0. Whatever was in that old plastic pot seems a lot less "hot" than whatever was in the lily's original packing material. Or, it could be that the floaters are doing a better job of absorbing nutrients because of the increased lighting?


----------



## johnwesley0

It's Week Three of my lily's introduction to porcelain and there have been some encouraging signs since I introduced artificial lighting. An additional elephant ear shaped leaf unfolded at the tip of the rhizome within days and further down it is replete with tiny sprouts. In fact, I'm wondering whether it makes sense to just slice the rhizome in half and let the sprouts do their own thing in a different pot?

The other plants seem to like the extra light also. The _anubias barteri _also unfolded another leaf, the fastest I've ever seen it. And, it may be my imagination, but the _salvinia_ is on the verge of slowly taking over about half the water surface.

The water parameters have been pretty stable all week. If anything, the PH may be increasing ever so slightly (7.24); Nitrates 0.5 ppm. Which tells me the old potting mix or soil I used to repot the lily was probably inert. Can't seem to get my KH or GH above 4 or 5 with my ancient shell rock.

However, none of this has stopped the diatoms or bacteria or whatever that dingy brown coating that occasionally takes up residence on one side of the bowl or the other from returning. Rather than decreasing the light or moving it further away, I'm thinking of trying a corn cob LED bulb that is more directional (180 degrees.) The one I have now is 360 degrees and I can't help but feeling that a lot of its PAR value is being wasted. Is that a valid concern?


----------



## Michael

Sounds like the new light solved many problems. Corn cob LEDs are not very directional either. Look for an LED spotlight or floodlight. These will direct more of the light downward into your bowl.


----------



## mistergreen

Any small algae eater like snail, oto cat will eat the brown algae.


----------



## johnwesley0

Oh wow, we have a one month birthday for Lily! And another new leaf to celebrate. It's basic shape and size hasn't changed much in 4 weeks, but the leaves continue to grow in circumference and are now competing with the _anubias barteri_ for pride of place. Finally nailed down the lighting with a 3000K, 1400 lumen LED floodlight. The directional focus on the bottom of the bowl is clearly superior to the 4000 lumen corn cob bulb.

In retrospect, I probably over did it with the root tabs. I feel that with the spike in diatoms around the walls of the bowl, that the water column must be flush with extra phosphorus (not so sure whether the extra light may also be a contributing factor.) One beneficial "mistake" I made was in using the old potting mix to repot the lily. The dirt was probably devoid of nutrients but hopefully high in CEC capability.

And lastly, I now know what it's like to have to throw away floaters! I had to remove a cupful of _salvinia _just to take this picture. I felt terrible but it was the only way to get a good shot! Anyway, they must be doing a good job because despite all the nutrients in the tank, the parameters are remarkably stable at 0ppm ammonia, 10ppm nitrates, 7.6 PH and a dKH reading of 5.


----------



## mistergreen

Throw in nerite snails or some algae eater. They’ll clean the brown algae. You can make floating ring to contain the floaters. I would let the floaters cover the anubias so less algae will grow on it.

i have fish that kills snails so I have to clean off the algae which is a pain.


----------



## dwalstad

Looking good! I have to remove floaters every 1-2 weeks from my tanks, because I feed my guppies and shrimp heavily.


----------



## ronnie

I’m late to the game on this post, but wow! I’m loving the set up.

Concerning the diatoms and algae, wouldn’t more plants keep them at bay (as well as some shrimp/snails?

Or even growing a pothos plant in the water. Letting the roots grow in the water and the leaves hanging over the outside.

Dont quote me on it, but in my opinion adding another soil pot with more plants seems like it would be helpful? I always have a diatom and other algae outburst in newly set up tanks, but once plant growth takes off the algae begins to disappear.

I’ve not seen anyone else comment too much on that, so maybe I’m off in my thinking.

Edit: Also, if you’re concerned you overdid it with the root tabs, maybe it’s worth removing it and watering it in the sink multiple times (assuming you have a hole in the bottom. In house plants this is known as “flushing” the soil to rid it of any excess salts or fertilizers. If there is a hole in the pot, basically just run water over the plant until you see water escaping from the hole. (And repeat). Then you could return it.


----------



## dwalstad

Right on, Ronnie! The more plants, shrimp, and snails, the better.


----------



## johnwesley0

ronnie said:


> I’m late to the game on this post, but wow! I’m loving the set up.
> 
> Concerning the diatoms and algae, wouldn’t more plants keep them at bay (as well as some shrimp/snails?
> 
> Or even growing a pothos plant in the water. Letting the roots grow in the water and the leaves hanging over the outside.
> 
> Dont quote me on it, but in my opinion adding another soil pot with more plants seems like it would be helpful? I always have a diatom and other algae outburst in newly set up tanks, but once plant growth takes off the algae begins to disappear.
> 
> I’ve not seen anyone else comment too much on that, so maybe I’m off in my thinking.
> 
> Edit: Also, if you’re concerned you overdid it with the root tabs, maybe it’s worth removing it and watering it in the sink multiple times (assuming you have a hole in the bottom. In house plants this is known as “flushing” the soil to rid it of any excess salts or fertilizers. If there is a hole in the pot, basically just run water over the plant until you see water escaping from the hole. (And repeat). Then you could return it.


Ronnie, I really appreciate your comments. Those are all good, practical, _doable _things to try my hand at. And, fun. I've been fascinated by pothos ever since I saw photos of them in an excerpt from EPA. 

Right now, I'm really weighing starting another pot. I keep looking at that lily rhizome andn noticing it is full of tiny baby leaves along its visible length. I'm sorely tempted to slice it in half. The only thing holding me back is the possibility of traumatizing the rest of the plant. Am I projecting human feelings on a plant or is that a real risk? And, maybe I can do it in conjunction with flushing the pot?

Hmm. Shrimp. I'm not a big snail fan (sorry, if I'm offending anyone!), but I keep seeing snapshots of people's shrimp and I am a little bit jealous. If they can eat their weight in brown algae, I'll give them a try.

Again, thank you. Everyone's encouragement means so much to me.


----------



## ronnie

No worries on the snails. They have great benefits in their own way, but start a colony of of shrimps. They’re fun to watch dart around and they help process excess algae or fish waste.

Another thought is to add an emergent plant. I’ve always loved images of umbrella plants (or maybe it’s umbrella palm...) growing out of a tank.

And hell, if you have more bamboo stick them in there. You can always take them out if needed, but in my experience they grow wonderful root systems in a tank (especially submerged soil). I have 3 in my 12g.

I’m really excited about your approach. Sorry for all the ideas, I’m just currently living vicariously through your project, haha!

Oh! One last thought. What about some Java Ferns? You can attach them to anything, or let them float until they anchor on something. They should not be planted, can survive in lower light, but help with water quality.

And one more second last thought... have you seen “moss walls?” Essentially you take two mesh screens (such as the plastic flexible ones used in crafts), spread Java moss on one layer, then cover it with the other layer. Eventually it will grow out and cover the screen. And since it’s flexible, you could contour it to the shape of your pot along the side. Shrimp would love this too.

Edit: because this post isn’t long enough already... I don’t have tons of experience with lily’s, but in my opinion I wouldn’t split it until the plant has some good solid growth. That way it has some extra strength to help it recover after splitting.


----------



## johnwesley0

Thanks, @ronnie .
I think I may settle for planting a "grove" of bamboo in one corner of the bowl and this time find some that are tall enough to qualify as emergent. I like the look of umbrella palms and porcelain vases (very Edith Wharton!), but, I worry that the canopy would get in the way of the lighting. Ironically, the only plant I have that actually needs a substrate is also the one that needs the most light - the lily.


----------



## johnwesley0

Hi, @ronnie I spent most of Friday trying to track down some cheap, inexpensive stalks of lucky bamboo in Brooklyn and you wouldn't believe how hard it is to find in a regular store these days. Is there a sudden run in popularity? The Ikea store in Red Hook advertised them online but when I got there (after a pleasant bus ride) I found they had lost track of their inventory and in fact had none. Not a good look for a store that does most of its business online.

In the meantime, I'm looking at my parameters and the latest development is that thanks to the new lighting arrangement and in particular its effect on all the floaters, my nitrate level has been cut in half. This morning's API liquid test was the palest shade of champagne it has ever been and was initially bright yellow right after the vigorous shake. I fully expect it to be 0ppm in another week.

I don't mean to understate this. This has been my Holy Grail since January. And it confirms @dwalstad 's longstanding belief that vigorous plant growth is the key to circumventing the nitrogen cycle.

But, LOL, I think I'm going to need a bigger feeding ring:


----------



## mistergreen

You can make a floating ring of any size with airline tubing. It's best to contain the floating plants too so the plants underneath can get some light.


----------



## Michael

I'm surprised your lily hasn't grown some floating leaves yet. Am I missing something in the photo?


----------



## johnwesley0

Michael said:


> I'm surprised your lily hasn't grown some floating leaves yet. Am I missing something in the photo?


Thank you for asking. I was hoping the lily would be one of those fast-growing plants Ms. Walstad talks about. That was my original inspiration for planting it - along with the challenge of trying something completely different in my hobby experience - growing an aquatic plant completely from the germination stage.

But, I was slow in getting the lighting right. It's really only been the last two weeks that its had anything more than an hour or two of sunlight a day. And, the "hardy" domestic version I have consists of a tuber-like rhizome; a lot of its recent growth seems to be along its length rather than through its putative _top:







_

EDIT: In many ways, it seems to be behaving more like my _anubias barteri_ than what I was expecting it to be.


----------



## Michael

It can take a while for newly planted water lilies to send leaves to the surface. Until it does, keep the water surface above it clear of floating plants so that the lily gets plenty of light as mistergreen suggests. Once those leaves hit the surface they will push the floaters out of the way.


----------



## johnwesley0

The thing I love about this hobby is that every problem demands some improvisation. In this case, I really was able to get a bigger feeding ring (it arrived a short time ago.) I was surprised that it doesn't actually _float _which would have been nice. But, with the help of some strategically placed chopsticks, it acts as a kind of "roof" for the lily which is the only plant I have that requires a lot of light. The floodlight is like a laser beam right above it:


----------



## ronnie

Things are looking good! And I’m glad the extra plants are doing their job. I find that I’m throwing out floaters on a weekly to bi-weekly basis to allow the submerged plants more light.

Lucky bamboo... I had the same trouble. I ended up having to get some from Amazon. I found the size I needed and it came in a 10 pack. More than I needed, but all I could find.


----------



## dwalstad

Light spectra can influence the production of aerial leaves in aquatic plants. Dr. Wetzel (p. 526) and other aquatic botanists say that a low R/FR, meaning a low ratio of 660 nm (Red) light to 730 nm (Far Red) light, will induce emergent growth such as occurs in shallow water. That's because water preferentially absorbs 730 nm (Far Red light), thereby increasing red light (660 nm). This is a hormonal trigger thingy.

Also, low CO2 will also induce aerial leaves.

My water lily of 3 weeks age has already sent up an aerial leaf and threatens to send up a couple more. I think it's because of the lighting I have been using, which is outdoor evening light plus LED lamp where half of the LEDs are red. John's lighting setup probably has a totally different spectra. 

That said, many hobbyists prefer that their tank Nymphaea *don't *send up floating leaves.


----------



## johnwesley0

And no more siestas!


----------



## johnwesley0

Well, it's been an intriguing week in porcelain land. The place has been a red light district since I saw Ms. Walstad's post. I had a funny little bulb on hand that was one of my first purchases maybe two weeks ago when I was auditioning new lighting systems: a 8.5 watt (65 watt replacement) G.E. LED bulb that had 10 different colors all operational via remote control. To my human eye, however, it just never seemed to pack much of a punch in terms of brightness, especially when switched to any of its color modes.

And, since low CO2 levels seemed to be a co-factor, I decided to throw caution to the winds and left the red bulb on 24 hours a day, (i.e., with no respiration period for any of my plants.)

Here's what happened: over the space of the first 48-72 hours the _salvinia minima_ seemed to stop propagating. For the first time in weeks, I did not have to remove half of them in order to see the bottom of my bowl. And, as if I needed any further proof that they were performing the lion's share of the ammonia removal, I had my first real spike in NH3/NH4 since the tannin experience six weeks ago.

But, I had to balance that against the fact that there was a tiny new leaf at the center of where all the major growth began six weeks ago, that seemed to be growing exponentially, just as its siblings did before reaching about two inches in diameter. What made this particular leaf so interesting is that by the end of about 12 hours every day it would be pointing determinedly upward.

This went on for a few more days until it became obvious that for all of its girth, its length was not going to go anywhere.

Meanwhile, the water spangles recovered. And, this morning when I went searching for the _anubias barteri _ I discovered this:









A leaf that clearly wants to be emergent! It's as if my lily and my ancient anubias want to swap personalities.


----------



## dwalstad

It's nice to see someone who really enjoys his plants and tries to understand them! If only they could talk....


----------



## johnwesley0

Not much to report. I was gone for a week and was hoping to see some emergent growth from the lily while I was away. But, it continues to swap identities with its next door neighbor, the anubias: the lily grows bushier while the anubias leaves seem to want to take off in all directions since I started giving them a continuous exposure to red light. Meanwhile, I love the fact that there hasn't been a hint of diatom or algae activity in two weeks! And the floaters have no problem maintaining an almost complete cover over the bowl:
















EDIT: I thought it might be time for another plant tablet(TM) so I just finished poking one into the bottom o the lily's pot. I could feel the soft potting mix with my finger and couldn't help but notice a couple of bubbles escaping. Not sure what to make o it. Same thing happened two weeks ago when I gave it a plant tab.


----------



## ronnie

Bubbles in the soil substrate can be normal. Did the bubbles smell in any way?

My Anubias also has these wild moments of growth. I kinda like it as I wasn’t expecting it.

Also, not entirely the same, but the only lily pad type plant I keep is the banana plant. Mine got bushy before it sent a stem and pad to the surface. I’m not sure if it relates or not.

Food for thought: I wonder if you create a “protection ring” from the floaters directly above the lily, it would allow better light to it and grow differently?

By the ring I mean some airline tube cut to a certain length and connected. Place this above to lily and the floaters won’t be able to cover it.


----------



## johnwesley0

ronnie said:


> Bubbles in the soil substrate can be normal. Did the bubbles smell in any way?
> 
> My Anubias also has these wild moments of growth. I kinda like it as I wasn’t expecting it.
> 
> Also, not entirely the same, but the only lily pad type plant I keep is the banana plant. Mine got bushy before it sent a stem and pad to the surface. I’m not sure if it relates or not.
> 
> Food for thought: I wonder if you create a “protection ring” from the floaters directly above the lily, it would allow better light to it and grow differently?
> 
> By the ring I mean some airline tube cut to a certain length and connected. Place this above to lily and the floaters won’t be able to cover it.


Haha. Great minds think alike, @ronnie:









There's no question that the tubing is more aesthetically pleasing than the rectangular feeding ring (which, btw, did not float - a downside to ordering on Amazon) and I can make it as big or as small as the situation demands.

Yeah, I think there are lots of parallels between lilies and banana plants, at least the domestic so-called, "hardy" lilies that grow from rhizomes. I was in @dwalstad 's neck of the woods for a week of visiting cousins and when I came back I noticed that the lily's newer leaves seemed to be bigger and more spear-shaped than the earlier ones - so, maybe it is entering a new phase. TBH, if this were a glass bowl, I would be over the moon with how it looked; I now have two bushy foreground centerpieces, one of which may send up emergent leaves. As they say in North Carolina, "We'll see."










I'm also rethinking your suggestion about the umbrella palm. It's a good looking plant and would give the eye something else to look at above the water line. I'm hesitant about buying one online, though. Thanks, for sharing your thoughts. Isn't this a wonderful hobby?


----------



## johnwesley0

Oh, and about those bubbles. 

Uh-oh. 

I just removed the chopsticks that had been sticking in the lily pot these past few weeks in order to support the rectangular feeding ring (the plexiglass one that couldn't float?) Well, with each one there was a fairly noticeable belch of bubbles that followed their being plucked out. _And_, there was a faint odor of rotten egg when I held the end of one stick to my nose. This led to a round of poking all around the pot and with every poke there was a small column of bubbles.

With all the talk lately about the foibles of driftwood, I think I made the classic mistake of burying the ends of three wooden ornaments (chopsticks) into a bed of potting mix. It doesn't seem to have affected the lily. But, who knows? Maybe, the H2S has been inhibiting its growth?


----------



## mistergreen

Nothing to worry about. Poke once in a while will help.


----------



## johnwesley0

Wow. I stopped by Pacific Aquarium & Plant after they offered to sell their display umbrella palms over the phone. They were slimmer and less obstructive than I was imagining them. There shouldn't be a lighting problem, especially since they'll have the "air advantage" over all the floaters that are there now:









Really bumps up the look of the set-up:









It certainly meant more dirt:









Starting with an old cannister cartridge and bed of gravel










About an inch of very old potting mix (mainly for cation capacity)














And another layer of gravel just to fix the plastic boxes in place.


----------



## ronnie

Personally, I love it! It kinda brings the whole bowl together as a statement without having to be directly over it. And I find that plant to be really cool looking, especially in water.

haha, and a lil soil never hurt nobody! I imagine it will grow much better with it there.


----------



## dwalstad

The Umbrella plant is a lovely addition to your bowl.


----------



## johnwesley0

ronnie said:


> Personally, I love it! It kinda brings the whole bowl together as a statement without having to be directly over it. And I find that plant to be really cool looking, especially in water.
> 
> haha, and a lil soil never hurt nobody! I imagine it will grow much better with it there.


Ah, were you thinking of having the palms hang over the water like pothos? That sounds like a DIY project. LOL.


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> The Umbrella plant is a lovely addition to your bowl.


Thank you! I felt a little guilty spending the money, but that particular store is not cheap. They were charging essentially the same price for one 18in stick of lucky bamboo (which is outlandish considering how close they are to Chinatown where lucky bamboo is ubiquitous), but umbrella plants are way cooler.


----------



## mistergreen

I would take the Little plastic container out when planting the umbrella plant so their roots can spread out.
you can find pond plants at Home Depot in the summer months, maybe you can find a reasonable Priced umbrella plant there.


----------



## johnwesley0

I think we have a runner! Maybe even a couple of them! Here is one lily leaf two days ago after I returned from a trip:










Here is the same leaf this morning:











It has nearly tripled in size and is not done growing. More importantly, it and its buddy to its immediate right are not much more than an inch from the water line; if they continue on the same trajectory, they will be touching the surface in another day or two.


----------



## johnwesley0

9:10 A.M. ET -Touch down (or, touch up!) That little pinpoint of light is where it is touching the surface. You can see how much it has grown overnight:


----------



## ronnie

Yay! Congrats. I wonder if the ring above it helped it receive more of the light it needed.

In terms of looking over it… no nothing crazy! I meant more of: you don’t have to be directly over the bowl to see any sign of life. But now, can see it’s a living system even from afar.

(that’s meant to come across as a compliment, haha, I hope it does).


----------



## johnwesley0

ronnie said:


> Yay! Congrats. I wonder if the ring above it helped it receive more of the light it needed.


Difficult to say. The new ring had only been in place 24 hours before I started noticing the first leaf's sprint to the surface. The timing also seems to have coincided with a lot more bubble activity from the soil directly underneath. Some of that was clearly H2S, but it also indicates significant decomp is presently underway. It's like all of a sudden, the soil is "hot"?

Partly because of that experience, I actually wound up repotting the umbrella palms; I didn't want the plastic baskets they came in to compact the soil underneath them. I probably needn't have worried; the palm's roots had already escaped their confinement and were well on their way to burrowing underneath the containers. But, I feel better.


----------



## Michael

Expect rapid growth after that leaf makes it to the surface. It will have more light and access to unlimited atmospheric CO2. Water lilies also have a strong ability to move oxygen from the leaves to the roots. This enables them to grow in anaerobic soils.


----------



## johnwesley0

Michael said:


> Expect rapid growth after that leaf makes it to the surface. It will have more light and access to unlimited atmospheric CO2. Water lilies also have a strong ability to move oxygen from the leaves to the roots. This enables them to grow in anaerobic soils.


I think this is almost certainly what is happening now. Ever since the first leaf reached the surface a week ago (the big floppy one at around 4 o'clock on the tube ring) others have followed. There are now four that are at least touching the surface, with a fifth candidate that is growing rapidly. Part of the problem with identification is that the lily's pot is only six inches below the surface. So, you would think emergence would be a fairly low bar to achieve. But, it's taken the better part of three months to reach this stage:









Also, the floaters have been culled (they can probably use a bit more) in order to actually promote their growth. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but I think it's like any population that experiences overcrowding - it can't be good for the individual plant. And, they're my nutrient vaccum cleaners; When they stop growing, my nitrates very likely go up. Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it for the time being.


----------



## johnwesley0

The big news this week is the discovery this morning of a different sort of leaf on the hardy lily. It is a _leafless _stem that has shot right up to the surface. Every other leaf until now began as an actual, diminutive leaf that grew progressively taller and floppier, sometimes reaching the surface. This morning's discovery stands in stark contrast due to the speed (or stealth) and the _single-mindedness_ with which it has reached the water's surface:











On the _salvinia minima _front. It is backfilling nicely since its cull last week and the nitrate level has actually decreased rom 20 ppm to 10 ppm, supporting my theory that floaters are at their peak efficiency as nitrate removers when they are _multiplying_. It's as if each plant is part of a bigger organism.


----------



## johnwesley0

Four days (and much rearranging) later:


----------



## dwalstad

Success! Your lily now has access to air CO2! I'm sure that she is breathing easier!


----------



## johnwesley0

This week's news is that there is indeed a second aerial leaf on its way and like a parent with a second child (I was a second child) I am much more chill about its arrival. It will continue to unwind all across the water's surface like fishing line until it decides to unfold its single waxen leaf. Did I read EPA correctly and that certain lilies use one leaf to "inhale" CO2 from the air and the other to "exhale" (somewhere along the line O2 is manufactured and delivered to the roots?) 
(EDIT: Actually, I remembered incorrectly. The intake leaf is actually inhaling O2 directly from the air and distributing it to the roots. I'm assuming the second aerial leaf will be specially adapted for exhaling CO2? EPA, pp.150-151) 

(EDIT: It's also more than likely that the aerial leaves aren't assigned one task over the other, but perform both ventilation functions at once - I shouldn't take the illustration literally. It's less creepy that way.)

I'm looking back several months ago when I first purchased the lily bulb and it is clear to me now that the packing material was some sort of clay. It doesn't excuse the pet store help for failing to know - but, it might explain why they were stumped:


----------



## johnwesley0

Well, it's always nice to come back from a vacation and find not only that your critters are still alive but that your parameters are actually _better _than when you left them! There is indeed a second aerial leaf on the lily (it currently seems to be in the process of righting itself so that the waxy part is facing up instead of in the water):









As for the parameters, my nitrates are now at 5 ppm. IIRC, they were closer to 10 when I left 10 days ago. Nitrites are still -0-. The only thing that has changed in my absence is the amount of water surface covered by my floaters (_salvinia minima_) which went from about half to two-thirds and is probably due for another culling:


----------



## dwalstad

The packing material that you used to grow the lily looks more like peat moss than clay. 

Google Search: _Moss peat is a bryophyte also called sphagnum or bog moss. Because of the presence of a remarkable water holding capacity moss peat is used as a packing material in the *transportation of flowers, live plants, tubers, bulbs, seedlings*, etc. _

That would explain the slow growth. Peat moss is a very poor substrate. Too acidic, too "fluffy", lacks iron, etc. Even if you add fertilizers, it will never be as good as ordinary garden soil. Bagged potting soil would be my second choice.

I enjoy your poetry.


----------



## johnwesley0

Dang it. Lost a zebra danio when I was scooping out floaters. I'd like to think I would have discovered it in time had I not been rushing to get to an appointment. But, a quick head count several hours later alerted me that something was wrong and by then it was too late to rescue the poor thing from the garbage. Ironically, I'd recently stopped flushing excess floaters down the commode to avoid the danger of them becoming invasive species. Maybe, if I had continued doing it that way, I would have noticed a stray fish in my toilet?


----------



## Strychnine

Are you scooping by hand or with a net/other device? I'd think that if you did it by hand you would notice a stray fish flopping around.


----------



## johnwesley0

Strychnine said:


> Are you scooping by hand or with a net/other device? I'd think that if you did it by hand you would notice a stray fish flopping around.


The killing field: An old filter compartment with slats on the bottom for the water to escape. Jesus (I named her after Our Lord because she died for my sins) was covered by greenery before I could notice she was in there:


----------



## Strychnine

I'm sorry for you loss, but I love the humor. I can see how you would miss a fish in there if it was filled with vegetation.


----------



## dwalstad

These things happen to even the most conscientious fishkeepers. When I was about 13 years old, I was totally devastated after discovering the dried and shriveled up body of a treasured female guppy behind the tank. My father expressed some concern about my emotional stability. 😢


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> These things happen to even the most conscientious fishkeepers. When I was about 13 years old, I was totally devastated after discovering the dried and shriveled up body of a treasured female guppy behind the tank. My father expressed some concern about my emotional stability. 😢


I knew this was the right place to share my grief.


----------



## johnwesley0

Just back from another trip and there are so many lily pads at this point that it's become difficult to tell which plants they belong to:










The nitrates were up again (~40ppm) which seems to happen every time the floaters become too thick:









My theory is that as the floaters grow they become increasingly hospitable to colonies of beneficial bacteria which in turn compete with them for ammonia uptake. Culling the floaters promotes their rate of growth while reducing the bacterial population. Performed the first partial water change in almost a month.


----------



## johnwesley0

So...I'm turning my attention to propagating some of the plant species I've already established. I have a lotus bulb imbedded in wet soil that will hopefully keep it alive until next year when I don't really know what happens to the adults I already have. Do they go through a dormant period? And, approximately how many years do I have before they just stop growing?

My latest nano tank project is to grow a umbrella palm cutting until it is tall enough to transfer to the main bowl:











This was my second try at a cutting. According to all the blog entries, you can sprout roots from a stem cut approximately four inches below the "umbrella". Most suggest placing it upside down (umbrella side down) in a small container of tap water and just wait:









My first try was from a stem that may have been diseased; it eventually decomposed. The one above was from an adult plant that just bent like a twig one day and looked ripe for disease:








That seems to happen a lot with this species - the stems eventually grow too tall and begin to bend. Unlike my first venture, there was new growth after two weeks in a plastic cup. It was actually a completely autonomous plant joined at the hip to the old stem. A good pair of aqua scaping straight scissors was the perfect tool for the job of separating it.


----------



## johnwesley0

The heavy rainfall in Brooklyn had knocked my weekend plans into a cocked hat, as it were. So, guess who spent the lion's share of the afternoon re-designing his NPT?

I was looking at the bowl and it was obvious that the floaters were a constant restriction on the surface air oxygen exchange which was probably the bowl's greatest asset. It was actually DW who reminded me of its importance when she answered a question in another thread.

Second of all, I needed to find out what was going on in there. Between the floaters and the ever emerging lily pads, it was literally like looking into a wine dark sea. Sea monsters could have been lurking in the bottom and I wouldn't have known it.

But, with a brighter LED bulb and a drastic expansion of the plastic tube ring, wonders were uncovered:


----------



## johnwesley0

Well, it's Sunday morning and a time for being present and relaxed as well as for reflection. It feels like a lot has happened in the last month. My floaters are almost all gone. There just wasn't room at the top for both them and the lily pads. Funny thing is, once I removed the bulk of them the _salvinia _stopped multiplying; the few that were left just grew bigger where they were and with long furry roots.

This past month has also been a good one for my umbrella palms. Their roots have reached the bottom of two filter media containers stacked on top of one another - as I thought they might. All I had to do was place a couple of root tabs underneath the bottom container.

Here's the bowl as it appeared 4 months ago:








And, here's what it looks like this morning:


----------



## mistergreen

Looks good. You'll freak when the lily flowers.


----------



## johnwesley0

Things continue to evolve. A month later, I've allowed the floaters take up a little bit more room and I reluctantly found myself cutting a couple of gigantic lily pads (about four inches in diameter) in order to maintain adequate surface air space. At this point, every lily and lotus has at least one identifiable pad able to absorb CO2 and to receive light along with the floaters. Just topping the water every so often.

My real point of pride are the umbrella palms which continue to grow and thicken:


----------



## johnwesley0

Only noting an uptick in ammonia readings, 0.25ppms. Shouldn't be too surprising since it's been 3 months since the last partial water change. Immediately did about a 25% WC (I try to keep about 8 liters of conditioned water always on hand.)


----------



## dwalstad

johnwesley0 said:


> Only noting an uptick in ammonia readings, 0.25ppms. Shouldn't be too surprising since it's been 3 months since the last partial water change. Immediately did about a 25% WC (I try to keep about 8 liters of conditioned water always on hand.)


Was that photo taken before the water change or afterwards? It looks like the water is tea-colored due to tannin accumulation.


----------



## mistergreen

Petsmart is selling an umbrella plant for $9.


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> Was that photo taken before the water change or afterwards? It looks like the water is tea-colored due to tannin accumulation.


Yes, that is a BEFORE picture. It's been that way since potting soil was first introduced with the lily.


----------



## dwalstad

The tannins that cause that tea-color will inhibit bacterial growth. That almost surely includes nitrifying bacteria, which could explain the ammonia in your bowl. Tannin release by the potting soil organic matter should decrease over time. In the meantime, I would change the water to remove the tannins. Here's one article from a quick Google search 'Tannins _and_ Bacteria': Tannins as an alternative to antibiotics


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> The tannins that cause that tea-color will inhibit bacterial growth. That almost surely includes nitrifying bacteria, which could explain the ammonia in your bowl. Tannin release by the potting soil organic matter should decrease over time. In the meantime, I would change the water to remove the tannins. Here's one article from a quick Google search 'Tannins _and_ Bacteria': Tannins as an alternative to antibiotics


OH. Thank you. That's interesting. I will see what I can do in terms of conditioning my tap water quickly enough to do some rapid WCs over these next several days. 😁


----------



## johnwesley0

So, yesterday marked the one-year anniversary of my latest tank set-up, a large Chinese porcelain bowl with about a half-inch of gravel and a maximum of six zebra danio glo-fish. By the time I arrived at this forum, I had already experienced a few months of low tech, low-sunlight, aquarium maintenance and was on the cusp of understanding the difference between what I had and a true Walstad tank.

I was over the moon at being able to go for months with -0- ammonia ppm readings without a mechanical filter - and, significantly - no algae. But, I was increasingly puzzled over how so many readers could go for months reporting -0- nitrates? And, what was all this talk about "rapid plant growth"? That description certainly did not apply to my evergreen-like_ anubias barteri. _Nor did it describe my five sticks of lucky bamboo, apparently doing the lion's share of nutrient removal.

In many ways, this journal has been a chronicle of my backing my way into a Walstad set-up. I did everything in reverse order. I was nearly always carefully working around six fish, trying very hard not to poison them. Indeed, my first plants were chosen in order to avoid having to deal with actual soil: duckweed, _salvinia minima_ and, of course, those five sticks of lucky bamboo.

When finally I introduced some dirt to the situation, it was in the form of a potted lily. Thank you, @mistergreen.

And, that sort of did it for me. I no longer treated organic soil as radioactive. It could be introduced in controllable amounts.

The lotus plants were an education in and of themselves. They aren't exactly fast-growing in the sense that they don't really need soil until they separate themselves from their bulbs. But, once they do. Wow. Their root systems occupy the entire bottom of the porcelain bowl.

Bottom line: I can go for months now with -0- ppms nitrates.

ETA: As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on Safe-T-Sorb (STS) as an anaerobic bacteria filter. I still keep a container of it at the bottom of my bowl. In the final analysis, it remains to be seen which played the bigger role in pushing my nitrate levels lower- the STS or the addition of a lot of new plants? If I ever start a second tank, I will introduce it a lot earlier and compare the results.

ETA: I should also mention that in the process of figuring out how to care for the first water lily which was germinated from a rhizome, I purchased a floor lamp, the first artificial lighting I'd ever had for the porcelain bowl since I purchased it twenty years ago. This resulted in my first experience with algae in as many years. And, it was from that experience, and @ronnie 's recommendation that I introduced a single pond snail, a stow-away on one of the tiger lotuses, into the bowl. It has proved to be one of the wisest hobby decisions I've ever made. Not only do they take care of algae but do a bang up job of disposing of rotting lily pads - thus doing their part in keeping the water surface clear of too much cover.
tltr:dr:


----------



## johnwesley0

I may have spoken too soon. I can't think why I'm experiencing an outbreak of hair algae for the first time. I'm not doing anything different than I have been since I purchased the floodlight I'm using, back in May. The snails may be falling down on the job:


----------



## johnwesley0

It's been a while since I've posted about this porcelain bowl. But, before I go on, there is one bit of bad news to report: The _apistogramma_ adult male (I call him the _beta_ male to distinguish him from the _alpha_ male that remains in the breeding tank) died after appearing rather sluggish for a few days. He is survived by two adult females of the same species and 5 glo-fish zebra danios.

This was especially disappointing because they all seemed to be getting on well together. The danios spend the entire day swimming in circles while the _apistos _lurk in the shadows, only coming out at mealtimes. Mealtimes did tend to be competitive and for a while I worried about the _apistos _getting enough to eat. I increased the portions, even as it seemed some of it went wasted.

I also thought about swapping out one male for the other in the belief that perhaps the beta male could benefit from a change of venue. But alas he passed away before I could make up my mind about it.

As for the rest of the bowl, a friend came by the apartment the other day and remarked that I had a beautiful "potted fern" in my dining room. It was only after he peered into it that he realized there were fish in it:









Another thing I fret about is the rate of oxygen being exchanged at the surface as keeping the floaters under control is a constant concern:


----------



## mistergreen

Nice. The umbrella plant looks healthy. Have any of the glofish fries survived?


----------



## codnodder

johnwesley0 said:


> Another thing I fret about is the rate of oxygen being exchanged at the surface as keeping the floaters under control is a constant concern:


I can only comment anecdotally on this, but in the tanks I keep, the surface is always clogged with plants. I use water lettuce as a floater, and I like to keep fast growing rooted plants that grow up and across the surface. I have to pull water lettuce and prune almost daily just to make a space to drop food in. I have never observed any apparent detriment to non-plant life that would suggest a gas exchange issue.

The larger concern for me in regard to floating coverage is that it blocks light from lower levels. Gas exchange does not appear to be an issue from what I have seen.

Best,

Chuck


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> Have any of the glofish fries survived?


I'm sorry to report, no. The few that I spotted in the breeder tank disappeared gradually. But that was in a tank with an active predator in the form of the alpha apisto male. What I'd like to do eventually is swap out the danios with the surviving alpha male and turn the breeder tank into a community tank with just the danios and the juvie apistos. I'm gambling that more glo-fish fry would survive that environment and I think it would also be good for the juvie apistos to have some chill adults around to serve as role models (at scarcely a half-inch long, they are already showing signs of aggression with each other.) 

Anyway, whoever said raising fish was dull!


----------



## dwalstad

Bowl is beautiful and I love the surrounding arrangement. 
I don't think that the bowl will support many fish and oxygen deficiency is a possibility.
You mentioned keeping plant debris to produce CO2. I would not do that--at least purposefully-- for this small setup (no aeration and few or no submerged plants to produce oxygen). Emergent plants get their CO2 from air. 
I would remove excess debris and not add more fish (i.e., do not increase your stocking density).
The algae growth you see fortuitously plays the role of submerged plants. It oxygenates the water. In this situation, algae is a bonus!
Note: It is refreshing that you have such interest in ecosystem processes and are sharing your observations with us.


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> Bowl is beautiful and I love the surrounding arrangement.
> I don't think that the bowl will support many fish and oxygen deficiency is a possibility.
> You mentioned keeping plant debris to produce CO2. I would not do that--at least purposefully-- for this small setup (no aeration and few or no submerged plants to produce oxygen). Emergent plants get their CO2 from air.
> I would remove excess debris and not add more fish (i.e., do not increase your stocking density).
> The algae growth you see fortuitously plays the role of submerged plants. It oxygenates the water. In this situation, algae is a bonus!
> Note: It is refreshing that you have such interest in ecosystem processes and are sharing your observations with us.


I've been trying to set aside time to reassess the bowl's basic components (plants, critters, substrate, etc.) and I'm toying with the idea of paving over the excess debris with some Safe-T-Sorb and transplanting some submerged rooted plants from another tank. 

But, I'm also wondering whether I can accomplish virtually the same thing by cutting the emergent leaves from my red tiger lotuses? Wouldn't that force the lotuses to revert to their submerged selves?


----------



## dwalstad

I wish I could provide a brilliant and insightful answer, but you have more experience with Tiger Lotus than I do. Please keep up posted on your results.


----------



## MudLily

I've been looking for a bowl like this. In fact, this exact bowl is perfect! I believe my uncle had the same one some 25 or so years ago.

Where did you find it?


----------



## erose

johnwesley0 said:


> I'm also wondering whether I can accomplish virtually the same thing by cutting the emergent leaves from my red tiger lotuses? Wouldn't that force the lotuses to revert to their submerged selves?


Since our plants are very different species, this might not apply, but I've been trying something similar with my Taiwan lily. It's been putting out floating leaves with plantlets almost exclusively and the submerged leaves are deteriorating. So I've been trimming the floating leaves, but not all of them. The deterioration seemed to slow when there were only three floating leaves, but since I've been gone so much, I can't babysit it. It's a shame, because I like the plant when it has some floating leaves and some submerged, but apparently it doesn't. Oh well.


----------



## johnwesley0

MudLily said:


> I've been looking for a bowl like this. In fact, this exact bowl is perfect! I believe my uncle had the same one some 25 or so years ago.
> 
> Where did you find it?


I've had mine nearly as long as your uncle. Maybe 20 years. I found it in New York City's Chinatown. I wish I could give you the exact address. All I remember is that it was not one of the glitzy, souvenir stores. Look for one of the less noticeable "holes-in-the wall" on Mott or Mulberry Street.


----------



## johnwesley0

erose said:


> Since our plants are very different species, this might not apply, but I've been trying something similar with my Taiwan lily. It's been putting out floating leaves with plantlets almost exclusively and the submerged leaves are deteriorating. So I've been trimming the floating leaves, but not all of them. The deterioration seemed to slow when there were only three floating leaves, but since I've been gone so much, I can't babysit it. It's a shame, because I like the plant when it has some floating leaves and some submerged, but apparently it doesn't. Oh well.


Your Taiwan lily sounds like my "hardy lily". Its submersed leaf stems will just keep growing until they touch the surface; it took me a long time to realize that they weren't emergent leaves. 
Here's a snapshot of my hardy lily's submersed and emergent leaves next to each other near the surface:









My red tiger lotuses have taken quite a beating this past year. Without their emergent leaves, they are mere shadows of their former selves, I doubt they've grown a single new submersed leaf in six months:









This morning I took out a container that held several terrestrial plants (Peace plants) and made room for a grove of _sag subulata _ in its place. They should adopt to the bowl pretty easily.


----------



## johnwesley0

I took a deep breath and retrieved the artificial cave where I last saw my last female _a. borelli, _probably a month ago. Not sure what I was expecting to find; some forensic evidence? But it was clean and what that means is that I am down to one remaining adult apisto, a male. The rest had become - in the words of a recent poster - "support staff" in the ongoing saga of raising a small brood of fry.

Remarkably, the water parameters are all at safe levels. i can only imagine how big the ammonia spikes would have been had three fish corpses not been tagged and removed two years ago.

Not much change at the substrate level. Very little sign of new submersed leaf growth on the tiger lotuses. The _subulata _are doing well, as predicted:









OTOH, my terrestrials have never been better:


----------



## johnwesley0

ETA: This is the "grand-daughter" of the potted red tiger lotus that occupies a great deal of the space at the bottom of the porcelain bowl. It was not doing too well in the community tank where it began life as a "runner" from a lotus that is doing quite well and was sprouted from the same bulb as the one in the bowl:









Here it is replanted next to its "grandmother":









Hopefully, it will add to the oxygenating plants that I somehow managed to overlook when thinking about this bowl.


----------



## johnwesley0

I think there's been some growth in the past week. Not an explosive amount but enough to know that the old red tiger lotus is still alive and kicking. Based on Diana's recent thread on _Tank Oxygenation: Plants v. Aeration, _*I'm thinking Grandma Lotus could use more CO2:







*


----------



## Aquatic Meditation

I kept seeing this pot in the background of your Apistogramma thread and was about to ask about it. Glad the title of this thread was interesting enough to get me to bite hahaha.

I've been wanting to do a few little ponds like this on my patio.
Off to grab some snacks - I've got 9 pages of catching up to do! 😁🍿


----------



## FernKing

johnwesley0 said:


> I think there's been some growth in the past week. Not an explosive amount but enough to know that the old red tiger lotus is still alive and kicking. Based on Diana's recent thread on _Tank Oxygenation: Plants v. Aeration, _*I'm thinking Grandma Lotus could use more CO2:
> View attachment 75328
> *


I tried to see if you mentioned this before but I can‘t find the answer: What size is your bowl? How many inches across is the porcelain bowl? Thanks!


----------



## johnwesley0

21 inches.


----------



## FernKing

johnwesley0 said:


> 21 inches.


Thanks. I have a dream of starting a bowl like this but only if the right one comes along. I’m giving myself a budget and a year to find one. Even if I bought it tomorrow I can only start this project in spring at the soonest so I’m not in a rush.


----------



## johnwesley0

I should add, that's including the rim which has a bit of a lip. From interior wall to interior wall, it's about 17 inches at the widest part.


----------



## FernKing

johnwesley0 said:


> I should add, that's including the rim which has a bit of a lip. From interior wall to interior wall, it's about 17 inches at the widest part.


Cool. You’re cramming in so much into such a relatively small space it looks so great. I’m going to try to find a big fat one. Here near Palm Beach we have an auction house and estate liquidator. They always have cool ceramic wear available for pretty good prices. Here with the retirees in Florida I am in a vast sea of Chinese fishbowls and other Asian goods. I’m just waiting for grandma to have a garage sale! 😂


----------



## mistergreen

Don't pass up ceramic & resin pots ( 15"-18" diameter ) at the local H Depot.


----------



## johnwesley0

Update: I mentioned in another thread that I was thinking of moving the red tiger lotus pot to another tank in order to make room for more fast-growing, rooted plants. It was a tough decision, but I decided not to. It's the bull _apisto_'s favorite hiding place in a bowl dominated by schooling zebra _danios _and I figure he deserves this one spot of territory to call his own. I had to balance the rooted plant situation against the fact that it's been several months since the last fatality and the fish don't seem to be in any distress:


----------



## johnwesley0

I like what's happening with the red tiger lotus. It seems to be growing new leaves without them becoming coated with hair algae:









Here's the bull _apisto.borelli,_ peeking from under one leaf:









But, what I don't understand is what's happening with the dwarf sag. How can the leaves appear so green and healthy looking while coated with hair algae? They are usually the first things to melt under any sign of stress and yet they remain zombie like for what seems forever. Are they photosynthesizing, or is it an optical illusion?


----------



## johnwesley0

Sometimes I think I have more pictures of the plants in this bowl than I do of my own relatives! It's been over a year since I planted of couple of red tiger lotus bulbs in used keurig coffee cups and let them root in the mostly gravel substrate. They did moderately well for a while then got lost in the constant shuffle between raising fry in a new tank and finding a place to shelter the adult parents.

This morning, I realized at least one of the k-cups still held a live plant and decided to salvage it:









The bulb had all but disappeared and an enormous root was just spilling over the rim of the k-cup. Hopefully, it will come into its own in the breeder tank where it will have a proper dirt substrate, but I don't have a good track record at transplanting these bulb-less babies.

OTOH, in the space that has opened up, I discovered something I hadn't seen since I jump-started a grove of _dwarf sag _in the vicinity. We have a runner!


----------



## johnwesley0

Alas, I am batting zero with transplanting these second-generation tiger lotus offspring once their bulbs have been exhausted. One would think they would prefer the actual soil of the breeding tank to the mulm/STS muck at the bottom of my porcelain bowl - but no. The above attempt resulted in the plant just vanishing over the space of 10 days amidst a jungle of dwarf sag. Meanwhile, its close cousin, the result of an actual runner from the only lotus to survive since the beginning of the breeding tank, is thriving - at the bottom of the porcelain bowl:








Go figure.


----------



## johnwesley0

The Battle for the Bottom of the porcelain bowl is really starting to shape up now that the dwarf sag are sending up green shoots:









Again, I can't say enough about my umbrella palms. Thank you, @ronnie!


----------



## johnwesley0

Coming along. I think the dwarf sag is slowly winning:


----------



## johnwesley0

And the red tiger lotus has a couple of new emergent leaves. I think it is slowly coming back from the brink:


----------



## dwalstad

The Sag don't look good, covered with algae and probably dying, making the substrate go bad. They're at the bottom where there isn't much light. Ideally, these small plants should be in a shallow tank where they can get the light they need. For this situation, plants with longer leaves or stems might be a better choice than _Sagattaria subulata_. _Cryptocoryne balansae,_ Val, _Sagittaria graminea_?
Or you could just dedicate bowl to the RTL. I would hand remove some of that hair algae and trim off leaves that are hopelessly infested with algae.

Looks like the emergent plants are doing great!


----------



## johnwesley0

dwalstad said:


> The Sag don't look good, covered with algae and probably dying, making the substrate go bad. They're at the bottom where there isn't much light. Ideally, these small plants should be in a shallow tank where they can get the light they need. For this situation, plants with longer leaves or stems might be a better choice than _Sagattaria subulata_. _Cryptocoryne balansae,_ Val, _Sagittaria graminea_?
> Or you could just dedicate bowl to the RTL. I would hand remove some of that hair algae and trim off leaves that are hopelessly infested with algae.
> 
> Looks like the emergent plants are doing great!


Yes, I was afraid of that. I looked over my previous posts this morning, to try to pinpoint when things started to go south (good thing I keep good documentation!) and it seems as though my concerns with surface air oxygenation steered me in the direction of clearing away the _salvinia _carpet that was a distinguishing feature of the bowl's early forays into dirt. In hindsight, I think it's clear that the floating carpet was controlling not only the amount of light reaching the bowl, but also a fair amount of nutrients too, making it harder for hair algae to get a foothold. Not sure whether to try going back to the _status quo ante _or forge ahead with trying to get different submerged plants to compete with the algae? The irony is that it may be the algae that is a chief source of oxygen for the bottom of the bowl!


----------

