# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Flourish product usage



## Carson (Apr 16, 2003)

OK. I realize that every tank is different, and will need tweeking. But if I could get some suggsetions to start from. I'm looking at the full seachem Flourish line. I'm testing for nitrates and potassium. I'm looking at 

-Flourish
-Trace
-Iron
-Nitrate
-Potassium
-Excel

-My tank is 55 gallon
-3 watts per gallon, NO lights with good ballist
-laterite
-diy CO2 for now (I'm watching ph for CO2 levels closely)
-Moderatly planted (more to come if I can get my algae down
-KH 5-6

I'm not sure what info you need. I finely got phosphates under controle after weeks of it being off the scale. 
I can watch nitrates and potassium with test but do not have an Iron test.


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## Carson (Apr 16, 2003)

OK. I realize that every tank is different, and will need tweeking. But if I could get some suggsetions to start from. I'm looking at the full seachem Flourish line. I'm testing for nitrates and potassium. I'm looking at 

-Flourish
-Trace
-Iron
-Nitrate
-Potassium
-Excel

-My tank is 55 gallon
-3 watts per gallon, NO lights with good ballist
-laterite
-diy CO2 for now (I'm watching ph for CO2 levels closely)
-Moderatly planted (more to come if I can get my algae down
-KH 5-6

I'm not sure what info you need. I finely got phosphates under controle after weeks of it being off the scale. 
I can watch nitrates and potassium with test but do not have an Iron test.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Did you already purchase all of those?
I'd skip the Trace & the Execel!

Here is a good article on dosing, http://www.aquatic-plants.org/fert/est_index/est_index1.html


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2003)

I'd skip potassium and nitrate too if those are the Seachem line of products, they get expensive for a 55g.


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## Carson (Apr 16, 2003)

Well what do I add? I'll worry about going cheaper after I get things in order.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

The reason I said skip the "trace" is because, "flourish" has all the traces you need and it's a lot more concentrated then the "trace"!

The reason I said skip the "excel" is because it is used to add the carbon plants need... but if you are adding CO2 that will do the job and its a lot cheaper!


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

For a 55 gallon tank you are better off with basic chemicals to dose the tank. KNO3, potassium nitrate for both nitrate and potassium. K2SO4, potassium sulfate for extra potassium. Carbon is best done with CO2. Tell us your kH and pH and we can tell you if the DIY CO2 is even having an effect on your tank. I can tell you that DIY CO2 on a tank this size is very hard to do and can cause more problems than it solves.

Why were your phosphates so high? And don't bother testing for potassium.

Your algae problems are more than likely caused by a nutrient problem. Either too much or not enough. The nutrients can be, light, carbon, nitrate, phosphate. Those are the most common.

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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

i have a 50 and i dose flourish... if you buy the largest bottles at bigalsonline it's not too bad... i admit it was easier learning dosing in the beginning, so if you don't care about the extra money in the beginning, don't let anybody stop you. as soon as you feel comfortable with fertilizing, you can start trying out some of the compounds... ultimately it will be cheaper, but it sounds like you are in the boat i was in. "i want the plants green and the algae gone... when i'm succesful, THEN i'll figure out the cheapest way to do it."









excel is for carbon so skip that since you're doing CO2 already (the excel is the most expensive to dose anyway). as for ekim's note about the flourish and the trace... i'm actually using both BUT ekim is smart and may have actually READ the contents (i just dump stuff in and i'm happy). so... it won't hurt if you dose both... but now i guess i want to see what the difference was. i always wanted to know what plain old flourish was... i just never got around to reading the bottle. instead, i spend my time here









JP


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## Carson (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm runnin 2 DIY bottles. My KH is about 5 and the PH will be about 7 to 6.7 in the morning after running an airstone all night. ( The bottles run all night too). And by the time the lights are out in the evening ( with air stone off all day) the PH is about 6.2. By the evening hours my plants are covered with tiny bubbles and bubbles are streaming to the surface. I'm not sure if that's too much fluctuation. I have a pictus cat that seems to be stressed by evening, everything else seems ok.
My dosing now is this

After a 25 - 30 water change--Flourish-----3ml
--Trace--------3ml
--Potassium----6ml
--Nitrogen-----4ml (or as needed after test)
--Iron---------3ml
--Excel--------5ml
 --Phosphates---none ( I've finely gotten it down, no more ph adjuster)

Daily----Flourish-----1ml
----Trace--------1ml
----Potassium----2ml
----Nitrogen-----1 half ml ( ore as needed after test)
----Iron---------1 half ( I use laterite, so I'm not sure about Iron 
leaching in from substrate)
----Excel--------none
----Phophates----none 

This is were I chose to start tweeking from. I seem to have slowed or stopped the spread of hair algae but am still a long way from home. The pants I have are fast growers, I think. Hornwort,Anacharis, and walmart bulbs. They are growing fast,but are not real full, as they were when they were put in.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Ok, the bad news is that 3 ml of Flourish trace in a 55 gallon tank is pretty much worthless. Also to get your 55 gallon tank to the suggest potassium levels you would have to add 100 ml of Flourish potassium. Also with 3 wpg you are not adding nearly enough iron.

I have never used the Seachem nitrogen product. But you want your NO3 levels to be in the 5-10 ppm range. And it sure doesn't sound like you are adding enough to get them there.

The suggested levels are:

Nitrate 5-10 ppm
Phosphate 0.5-1.0 ppm
Potassium 10-20 ppm
Iron dose to 0.1-0.5 ppm

And I wonder about your pH values. In my experience it would be hard to get those type of swings with DIY on a tank this size with a kH of 5. Normally one would expect to see at most a .2 point swing. With a kH of 5 and a pH of 6.2 your CO2 levels would be around 92 ppm. And it would be no wonder that your fish would be stressed. Anything over 50 ppm and you start seeing fish go belly side up. How large of bottles are you running and how are you getting the CO2 into the water?

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## Carson (Apr 16, 2003)

My Nitrates are testing, so far, at about 10. Phosphates are staying around .5 - 1.

My CO2 bottles are both 64 oz. feeding into a 2400 proquatics cannister filter intake. It's putting out well over a bubble per second. So many bubbles that at times the filter impeller gets really loud with trapped air and the bubbles shooting into the tank can be annoying. But as I look into the tank, after running all day, the bubbles are all over and streaming up from all the plants.

I've read that salt substitute is a good source for patassium. What brand works best and how do I know how much I'm dosing in comparison to flourish brand?


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

rex! note about the flourish nitrogen line.. it's NOT all nitrates, so if you have 10ppm nitrates... the nitrogen the plants can use will actually be much higher than that. i'm not going to read the bottle to see the other ingredient, but basically they say nitrates are 1/2 of the solution, so if you're aiming for a certain level and are measuring via nitrates, you double your nitrate reading to get a rough estimate. basically, if he is dosing with flourish nitrogen and has 10ppm no3, that means he should have (roughly) 20ppm of usable nitrogen in the tank. since you guys usually recommend 5-10ppm but you strictly use nitrates to dose... i usually aim for about 5ppm or just a tiny under... that should give me roughly the same amount of nitrogen in the tank as one with all nitrates. unfortunately i don't know how the different nutrients play with algae... but that's the basic run-down on flourish nitrogen. it's 1/2 nitrates, 1/2 something else.

JP


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## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

Interesting jpmtotoro. (what is your real name so I can quit referring to you as that? lol) So if you have nitrates already existing in your tank how can you accurately tell what nitrates are coming from your fish and what is coming from the Fluorish? Seems like a bit of trouble to me.

Also I am interested in the salt substitute. I have heard that before and I think I need to start dosing potassium to help with growth. Is it NuSalt you are referring to? How much to dose per gallon and how often?

Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

Hi Carson,
As you already know every tank is different so a lot will eventually be left to your own testing and tweaking. I too started out with the Flourish line and TMG in my 55 gallon. Mixing your own ferts as Rex I believe pointed out is infact a lot more economic, I bought just about all I need now to mix my own for the next few years but I'm still finishing off my Flourish and TMG products that I stocked up on.

I mix a weekly batch of 75ml composed of the following:

15ml Flourish
30ml TMG
10ml Fl. Nitrogen
10ml Fl. Potassium
10ml Fl. Phosphorous

I dose the above mix daily using an Eheim liquidoser and I also add 10ml of TMG and 5ml of Flourish at each 50% water change. Oh yeah and Flourish tabs every couple of months too. TMG contains a lot of potassium however Flourish contains more traces so mixing the two avoided me having to make the choice. Seeing you are using DIY CO2 you can skip the Excel however I was also adding Excel until I upgraded to bottled CO2, why? Because I bought a big bottle of it and didn't want to waste it, perhaps with DIY CO2 it may help a little, who knows? Flourish Trace is a supplement of a couple of the trace elements contained in Flourish that could be used up faster than the rest of the contents. There's a table I put together a little while ago when I was doing the same comparison http://67.89.4.174/aqua/fert_table.htm From what I was told, Trace might be needed depending on the contents of your tap water and how fast certain elements are consumed in your tank. Another words, if you have it give it a try and see what difference it makes over a month period or so. Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium will depend on your tap water contents, fish load, fish food and amount consumed by your plants so it's difficult to say which ones you will need. As long as you do large weekly water changes you can experiment with larger doses and see how the plants do, just don't overdose the nitrates which as someone else said, only show up as half of the real value on our test kits. Another words after a large water change, test your nitrates, then add Flourish nitrogen and test again, double the difference and you should know how much you have increased the level by. It's a pain at first but once you have a routine that works for you, you don't need to keep testing, just repeat last weeks doses. If the nitrogen calculation becomes a pain, switch to KNO3 which will show up correctly on a nitrate test kit. In the long run you'll probably want to switch to mixing your own stuff.

Regarding your PH/CO2 swings, low surface agitation might explain the high level of CO2 by nightfall, I've crashed my 55 gallon many times with DIY CO2 and low surface agitation combined. Also, your plants may not be absorbing much CO2 at the moment if they are in short supply of any other element they may need. Increase your surface agitation and see if things change.

I'm still playing around with doses and slowly changing to mixing my own but so far the levels above are what pulled me out of the algae mess I got myself into by increasing the lighting and not changing my fertilizer doses.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

jon,

seachem is supposedly coming out with a nitrogen test kit (NOT a nitrate test kit, a nitrogen test kit) dunno if/when though...

my name is what i always sign as









JP


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## Carson (Apr 16, 2003)

Thanks for the suggestion on dosing. It looks like I'm dosing too light. One question, what is TMG?


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> One question, what is TMG?


TMG is short for Tropica Master Grow. It shouldn't be too difficult to find it online, I know my local stores don't carry it.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Carson,

I've got a planted display tank where I work that receives 100% Flourish suppliments. It's an 80g bowfront and drinks of the whole line. At first I was skeptical, but since that's our main plant suppliment line and I've got to pander it to unsuspecting people I figured I should practice what I preach. _MUCH_ to my (pleasant) surprise the tank is looking VERY good. The Didplis and Ammania are growing the best...









If you're using a majority of Flourish products to suppliment your tank you really should be using them all and following the directions on the bottles for dosing amounts.

Flourish (complete) is ok for trace element supplimentation, but that's the only one I'd use exclusive of the rest of the line. Unfortunately the Flourish line is kind of an all or nothing proposition.

With Excel the plants have to work a lot harder for their carbon than they do with CO2 supplimentation, causing growth to be much slower. The Seachem chemists were smart and designed the rest of their suppliments around a slower growing system. They're product is too dilute for most of our fast growing systems.


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## cearbhaill (Jun 3, 2003)

Phil-
I'm wondering if you might find a moment to detail your dosage schedule?
I'm just beginning with the Flourish line of products, and "think" I have figured out a decent plan, but would like to know how others do it. I'm especially interested in your water changing schedule and how you dose around that.
More details of my set-up here.

Cearbhaill
South Florida USA


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Let's see if I can remember correctly...

All doses are in Capfuls ie: 2 equals 2 capfuls.

Mon-
Excel: 4
N: 2
P: 2
K: 2
Fe: 2
Trace: 3
Flo: 3/4

Tues-
30% W/C
Excel: 8
N: 4
P: 4
K: 2
Fe: 2
Trace: 3
Flo: 3/4

Wed-
Excel: 4
Fe: 3

Thurs:
Excel: 4
N: 2
P: 2
K: 2
Fe: 3
Flourish: 3/4

Fri-
Excel: 4
Fe: 3

Sat-
Excel: 4
N: 2
P: 2
K: 2
Fe: 3
Trace: 3

Sun- 
Excel: 4

Mon-
Excel: 4
N: 2
P: 2
K: 2
Fe: 3
Trace: 3
Flourish: 3/4

I think this is the dosing schedule I've put together for the tank. It may be off a little, but it's close. I usually work four days a week and I'm not sure if the tank gets suppliments on my days off. I tend to dose a little extra after I've had a day off.

Also, remember that this is for an 80g tank. Your doses will be different.







Seachem has a sheet with a description of the Flourish line and a suggestion for what to dose on which day. Shoot them an email and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to send it to you.


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## Dr V (Feb 5, 2003)

Phil,

I hate to disagree, but you can use most any of the Seachem line in isolation of the other products. The only 2 products that would need to be used together would be Equilibrium and Fluorish K and that is because Equilibrium supplies the majority of K. Fluorish K is kind of lacking in K if used alone. Don't get me wrong Seachem makes fantastic products for planted aquaria and quality test kits.

Jpmotoro - the 1/2 something else seems to be sequestered ammonia. It will not be harmful to fish but will be available to the plants. I am guessing the ammonia is sequestered with the same detoxifying agent used in Seachem's ammonia controlling products.

A good source of K is KCl (aka. Muriate of Potash) or K2SO4 (Sulfate of Potash) that can be found in most gardening stores.

Lobos


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## gpodio (Feb 4, 2004)

I think it's safe to say that using the entire flourish line you are getting somewhat everything you need using the recomended ratios. Mixing and matching brands at times can lead to eccess or shortage of certain nutrients unless you manually adjust the doses to compensate. For example, I use TMG more than Flourish, TMG does not contain many of the trace elements that Flourish has (reason for still using Flourish) but has a lot more K which means I won't need to use as much Flourish K. Flourish Trace for example just contains some of the trace elements which tend to be consumed more rapidly in a tank using Flourish. On it's own, Flourish Trace is not a complete trace mix. Flourish K, N and P can all be used with anything you like however you might need to adjust the dose if any of these are already present in your fertilizer mix.

Giancarlo Podio


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

dr v i think you're right, it's supposed to be some complex ammonia compound. i looked at it once, said "neat" then pushed it out of my mind







all i really care about is that it works. so far i'm stocked well on flourish stuff and i will continue to use the line for a while. it's good for starting out, even though it's a bit costly. later on when i'm more confident i may try real compounds, but in the mean time my goal is to grow plants, not screw around with stuff and grow algae







i'll worry about reducing the costs later

JP


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Phil Edwards:
> Seachem has a sheet with a description of the Flourish line and a suggestion for what to dose on which day.


Phil, 
Can you post this sheet or send it to me through email?
Is it geared to low or high light setups?
Thanks

*My Digital Gallery*


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