# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Adding lime or oyster grit



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

About 6 weeks in now into my natural set-up, and it seems that the water has been stable since the start:

PH: 8-8.25
KH: 4
GH: 5
NO2: 0 mg/l*
NH3/4: 0 mg/l*
(* Or lower than my kit can detect)

If I am reading the charts right, that means I have <1 PPM of CO2 in there. 

I've got some hair algae doing quite well, a few bits of algae that started as spots but have developed into little tufts about a mm high. Some strange white algae I can't ID (pic below), maybe staghorn algae? I also note, a java fern I added, is either getting algae on it's roots, or it's developing some super fine hair structures of it's own.

Based on the KH/GH being a bit on the low side, at least I see others trying for values in the 8 range, I've been trying to figure out what to add to try get them a bit up. With my PH being as high as it is, I am a bit worried to add oyster grit or lime. From what I know of adding lime/oyster grit etc to a lawn, it's to elevate low PH.

Is lime/oyster grit going to do something similar in my tank with it's already high PH? How do I figure out how much to add? Should I leave it alone for now?


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

That is very interesting looking algae! I'm also wondering what kind it is. 

I use shell grit and potassium chloride to raise GH and KH, but my tapwater's pH is only 6.9 to begin with. Before I started using the shell grit, I used Epsom Salts and a product called "Hardness Up", which is a liquid calcium supplement that doesn't change the pH (it's Australian made, but you could probably find something similar). I also tried some "Softwater Conditioner" from the LFS which didn't alter the pH, but I didn't like it because it contained lots of sulfur and anti-fungal medication. 

From Alex.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

If your plants are doing okay, then I wouldn't add any lime. It will raise the pH. 

I've never heard of a white algae. Is there any chance that the white stuff is hydra? Does it move....ever so slowly?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Maybe it's a fungus of some kind? I've read a few postings on "white algae" but nobody has identified it. It apparently is not common. and it's easily controlled.

BTW, Seachem Equilibrium will increase GH with calcium and magnesium in the proepr ratios, without affecting the pH.

I wonder what your nitrates are? 

Bill


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Hi Diana, I don't *think* it’s hydra. At least it's not like any of the pictures I've seen, its leaves/fingers (whatever they are) are about 8-10mm long and it does not move. (After you asked, I had to watch to be sure!)

The thing is, my plants are kind of stalled, and these growths are only forming on my vals from what I can tell and they seem to have stopped growing up at all. Runners are still progressing, but very slowly though, just no vertical growth. If the vals are suffering slow or no growth and there's possibly fungus forming on them, that seems a bit ominous.

Sheesh. Fungus?! I'd not thought of that...until this thread and one I just read, I wasn't even considering that. Care to indulge my "newbie" side and share some hints about how I might control this fungi? (if I can determine that's what it is) Maybe that Aussie water conditioner with the anti-fungal wouldn't be a bad idea.

I've seen Equilibrium in the LFS, and wondered about it. I just get the jitters thinking about adding chemicals to the tank...just worried I'll miscalculate. That's why I hope I can eventually find the "El Natural balance" and leave the water be.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

Equilibrium contains only what is or should be in your water - calcium carbonate, magnesium sulfate, and small ammounts of potassium and iron. The good things about it is that it contains the proper ratio between calcium and magnesium, and it doesn't raise pH.

while it's best to avoid adding anything to a natural tank, if your basic water supply is not adequate for plant growth, you don't have much of a choice.

Vals, like most plants, do better in harder water. Your tap water seems a bit soft, and the slowing down of the val growth could be a symptom of that.

I think if you manually remove manually the "white algae" and get your plants growing again, you won't see it anymore.

BTW, I don't sell Equilibrium. I just buy it. <g>

Good luck.

Bill


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

> Originally posted by Billpers:
> I think if you manually remove manually the "white algae" and get your plants growing again, you won't see it anymore.


Oh, the ever so technical hand removal process. I think I can handle that, I was expecting something much more scientific and exotic!

I can't answer your question about Nitrates...my test kit was really old, and when I replaced it, I did not realize the new one had no Nitrate tests included. I've really got to get one and get this tank tested.

The shopping list is growing, time for a trip to the store.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Between my water that is kind of yellow and the plain old cool white lamps at the back of the tank it seems there was a colour trick being played.

When I tried to pick some off using a pair of forceps, I noted two interesting things:

It was definitely green out of the water not next to a bright green plant. They seem to pull off quite neatly if you grip near the attachment point.

My vallisneria released bubbles from a few "wounds" left behind from removing the "algae-whatzits". I thought that was kind of strange, the stuff sure must get a good grip into the plant. Almost like a parasitic plant.

Still no nitrate test kit though...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Well, I'm glad to hear that this is a simple algae problem not some freakish fungus.









You seem really focused on getting these Vals going. It doesn't sound like its happy in this tank. I wouldn't put all my hopes on one plant species.

I don't see any reason to worry about nitrates. Getting some hardwater nutrients would help.

But the lighting? Old cool white lamps at the back of the tank? This doesn't sound like robust lighting. Val does best with hardwater and good lighting.

I'm suspicious that this tank has neither. Then the high pH? It doesn't sound like this tank has even basic conditions for plant growth.

Have you read my book?


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

<Long post warning>

I was relieved to find out it was algae.

I am not completely sold on any of the plants I have in my tank (cabomba has definitely been scratched off the list!). The vals do quite well from a runners/propagation angle, but upwards growth has been less than spectacular for the last month. I almost wonder if they grew in too thick and are smothering/competing with each other. At planting they had 2+ inches of space between but have in the last 6 weeks filled those gaps.

At the front of the tank was two Hagen Power-glo (18000K) in a dual bulb Hagen glo-mat. The cool white bulbs at the back were not old in age, just "plain old" Sylvania cool white bulbs using a shop light fixture. Kind of a mix of what I had when the tank was set up and extra light added when plants didn't seem to be doing too well.

Just last night, I received my new AHSupply 96W kit and installed it into my DIY canopy - that one fixture seems brighter than the 120W of 4 x 36" NO fluorescent bulbs it replaced. (And it generates a lot less heat without the magnetic ballast). I may add the Hagen glo-mat ballast kit back in to augment the light&#8230;but 3.2 WPG in a natural aquarium with no CO2, could that be a problem?

Either way, the tank has a much improved lighting system.

For my soft water, a trip to the LFS for some Equilibrium and nitrate test kit is planned for tonight. The Seachem Equilibrium should help get GH/KH up. As far as the high PH, I don't have any plans yet, I was trying to leave this tank alone as much as possible.

I don't remember your book, which I have read (it convinced me that I can have an aquarium without spending hours a week keeping it up), mentioning steps to take to try adjust water parameters when tap water is not ideal. Then again, when I tested my tap water before I started the tank, it had a PH of about 7.4 which seemed OK. I don't have the book with me (at work) to check, what suggestions would you make to adjust PH8+, soft water per my original post?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Equilibrium will not raise KH, just GH. 

If your KH were a point or two lower you might find that the PH wpuld drop a little, but don't try to change it.

A question for Diane and/or the group: I understand that water with a pH of over 8 is able to hold as much CO2 as at lower pH's, and above 8.5 it can't hold any. Is that true?

Thanks.

Bill


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## smilingfrog (May 22, 2005)

If your pH is at 8-8.5, I would suggest adding baking soda to your water. NaHCO3 has a tendancy to buffer water around 7.6, and should drop your pH. It should also have the added benefit of raising the KH (carbonate hardness).


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

you can estimate how much CO2 is dissolved in your water based on your KH and pH.
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calCO2.asp

I just got a pH pen and have been checking pH in a couple of my natural planted tanks. In the morning, pH is around 7.8 in both (similar to my tap water). but right before lights out, pH has risen to 8.4. Why? cuz the plants are happy and are sucking up CO2 all day which raises pH. then at nite, they release CO2 and the pH drops.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Situation sounds better than I thought.

With all this light, I would add some floating plants and the Equilibrium (if you have it). You could also thin out the Vals a little.

Actually, Vals should do fine with your alkaline pH, because Vals love hard, alkaline water. They can use bicarbonates very effectively for their carbon. I think you can get Val to grow fine at pH 8.5. They probably need the hardwater nutrients that your softer water doesn't have.

I would add crushed shells, etc to substrate. See my posting today in the "Raising GH with Epsoms Salts" folder.

I hope you have other plant species in this tank? 

You may have to try a few things to learn what works best for you. There's no magic formula.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Thanks to Diana and all for the advice and tips.

I've added some Equilibrium; the water seems a bit cloudy still, a few days later. I have been holding off adding baking soda, since I want to be sure to get the quantity right. Last night I found a thread that provided some clues, (but I still welcome recommendations). I want to try getting a sample done tonight; I've been too busy for a few days to check back on things. I noticed the "Raising GH with Epsoms Salts" thread and I've been following that too. So much to learn, so little time!

In terms of floating plants, I've suddenly got about 20-25% coverage from lemna minor (they've exploded in the last week or so, originally there was about 4-5 of them that hitchhiked in with the first plants I added)

I've been thinking of thinning the vals out, but there was a few platy fry showed up a day or two ago so I may leave the cover there for them for a bit.

I do have other species of plants in the tank too. There are 8 types actually (see attached pic) and I am still looking for some dwarf sag, or chain swords or something to fill in the middle of the tank a bit. The space has been reserved.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

7 1/2 Week Update:

PH: 8.1
KH: 9.5-10 
GH: 9-9.5
NO2: 0 mg/l
NH3/4: 0 mg/l
CO2: 3.0mg/l (Extrapolated from chart)
(I'm guessing at the decimal places)

Tank: 50G

Following advice in this thread and reading other posts, I’ve been slowly introducing additives to try getting my soft water to a state more suitable to support my plants. Over the last week, I've added 5.5 TSP of Baking Soda, and 6 TBSP of Equilibrium in 3 doses about 1/3 what I was expecting to need in total. I got both a bit higher than the 8 I was shooting for.

As mentioned in a previous post, I bought/installed a 96W AH Supply fixture with a 6700K bulb.

I also found Cardina Japonica at the LFS and picked up 6, I was thinking 3, but they we selling by 6 for a good price and I seem to remember they are “water picky” and can die off shortly after being introduced. In a week, they have drastically reduced the algae on many plants and rocks.

It seems that I may have got things right…too right?

On the bright side, figuratively, the plants are “pearling” or giving off oxygen or gas of some sort, I sure hope it’s oxygen. (I’ll post a few pics in my next messages). Also of note, being in my tank with no males since purchase July 31st, my single mature platy female surprised me by producing several fry. (I can safely say I’ve counted over 10)

On the other hand, I thought my tank was cloudy from the powdered additives, but I might be seeing the beginning of a fight with green water. Or, some sort of new bacterial bloom is happening. With the soil still turning the water yellow, I can’t tell for sure if the water is green or just cloudy. It almost like a really steamy shower with currents blowing around, similar to the clouding in a freshly set up tank. I have a Magnum 330 in storage that I can try using as a diatom filter. Although it might not work, I don’t really want to drop the dollars on a UV unit just yet. (I think I read they can kill off good stuff too). More plants, more plants, more plants, maybe that’s the answer. Might pull some of the val in the middle of the tank and replace it with some more h. polysperma, or h. difformis, something to suck up nutrients and compete.

I am, as always also open to any suggestions.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

L. Repens Pearling


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

H. Polysperma Pearling


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Green water? It really does not look this green in person, the photos make it look much worse that it is.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The tank looks real nice and the pearling is a great sign.

And you have a nice assortment of plants.

The duckweed is going to help here in keeping the greenwater under control. I'm glad to hear that its growing well. It's a race right now between the green water and the plants. Hopefully, your plants will win! 

Later on you may need to use the diatom filter, but I would save it as a last resort measure.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Thanks. Things seem close to coming together. (Fingers crossed)

I'd still like to add more plants, but finding the right kinds from a looks and compatability standpoint has only yielded 1 true plant "failure", and that was cabomba. I had much less light at first, that was likely a problem, but no matter how nice it looks healthy, it's really messy when it's not. I may just look for elodea to float and block some of the light as a quick plant fix.

Should I do anything different with the lighting until the green water clears up? Less hours? Changing to the CF light may be what tipped the balance too far towards the algae.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your analysis sounds reasonable.

Cutting down on the hours sounds like a smart move. Right now, you don't have enough plant for the high light you've added. Once you've got more plants and less bare spots, the good lighting will be fine.

If green algae appears to be taking over, I would do what I wrote about in book:


Major water change to get rid of most of green water organisms.

Then add charcoal to filter (gets rid of chelated iron in water)

Cut hours of lighting down drastically (3-6 hours total per day?)

That should help.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

Sorry. I should have gone back to the book. At work I am forever telling people to read the manuals/instructions before asking questions. Thank you for your patience! 

Hopefully my next update will be of a clear water variety!


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