# Very new, need advice on self sustaining tank



## CatG (Apr 10, 2010)

Dang. I just typed out a huge post, only to realize that I hadn't logged in. I REALLY need to copy these things to a word file before hitting submit.  Anyway, here is the new version - somewhat less eloquent that the first:

Hello! I'm new here, and VERY new to all of this. I just bought my very first aquarium, and I am in real need of advice on how to set it up. I have done some searching on the web, but being so new, I have quickly become lost and overwhelmed. Please be patient with me as I fumble around with my questions. 

I bought a used tank that had been a saltwater setup. Here's what it came with:
75 gallon tank/stand, Fluval 304 filter (used on a freshwater tank), 300 watt heater, canopy with flourescent light, powerhead (not real sure what this is), protein skimmer (don't know what this is either), garbage bag full of gravel (from freshwater tank), saltwater test kit

Items I bought new:
Siphon, thermometer, one box of Aqua Clear BioMax filter media, couple of buckets, water conditioner, freshwater "master test kit" and a book on creating natural looking environments in aquariums

I think I have stuff I won't need, and am guessing there are things I may still need to buy.

What I would like to accomplish:
Self sustaining (or nearly so) freshwater tank with plants, predator fish, prey fish, cleaner fish, and a sustainable food source for each. If having all of this is not possible, I would be happy to modify my plans to at least end up with a low maintenance setup. It's not that I mind doing cleaning and maintenance, and I don't mind feeding the fish, but I think it would be really interesting to create a self sustaining environment if it's at all possible.

I was hoping someone could give me a step by step on how to get started, in a manner a newb like me would understand. Like which dirt to buy, which plants to get, which fish will eat the plants, what I need to put in to keep algea down and keep the tank stable, can I use rocks from outside or do I have to buy them from the pet store, etc. I've got the stand in place and ready, and plan to rinse everything with water tomorrow, but I don't know what to do after that. (I'm getting conflicting advice from pet stores.)

I have looked at some fish already, and I liked the South American Peacock bass, and the cichlids (can't remember what type, but they were orange with green eyes). I like angel fish as well, but am not sure if they are fresh or salt water. If I can build a setup that's includes these fish, that would be great, but I am open to suggestions. The pet stores I've been to don't seem to have a very large variety, so I may very well be unaware of a really cool type that would work well for this. (I like bright colored fish, so anything like that would be great.)

Thanks for your patience, and I am sorry for not being more informed about all of this. I did try to do some research on my own, but it's all pretty overwhelming, and I don't want to mess this up.

Cat


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## Shurik (Mar 22, 2008)

Hello Cat and welcome!  You are absolutely right about too many opinions and ideas, it is very easy to get lost, and I still do.

I had a similar idea to yours when I started, and it was two years ago - somewhat sustainable aquarium, and I think I made the right choice and have something easy to deal with. I have semi-_*El Natural*_, and here is a special section on those. Basically, I have some soil underneath my gravel (about 1") in all three tanks I got (10, 20 and 50 gal), and I believe it helps a lot for that sustainability factor. It is far from sustainability, but it is still easy to have. At least I don't have to use fertilizer on the daily basis. Now, I still have to sometimes.

I think I would read about that approach just not to miss that idea out and know about it. Then you can "upgrade" - add filter, like I did, add more lights and some other things. Here it is:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/

Also, what are your lights the tank came with? what kind of a bulbs it has and what is the wattage? And how tall is your tank?

The predator will eat the pray so fast, you will not have any live food left for even tomorrow;
Angel fish is freshwater fish. 
Gold fish will eat most of your plants really fast, don't get those, I do have them already and one person is enough 

On the fish question - in my experience the

Good luck with your research!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

CatG,

Sustaining a clean planted tank is actually pretty easy if you don't get bogged down by too much nonsense advise. You will find that kind of advice abundant on the internet.

Remember 2 things:

- Aquatic plants in an aquarium force you to keep the aquarium semi-dirty. Meaning that algae can take over any time because you have to have "dirt" to feed the plants. Normally "dirt" is a bad thing, but for planted tanks is a must. Go wisely about keeping "dirt" in the tank and trying to keep everything clean. You will find a lot of advise, just use common sense about it. One good idea is to keep the dirt in the gravel and not have it floating around. You will find a lot of advice about fertilizing the water. That's a good example of how things are viewed in a wrong way. Read about it and find out what's right what's not.

- A planted tank requires patience. Only if you realy know what you are doing you can have a full blown planted tank in a month. Most enthusiasts have no concept about timing a planted tank - meaning most people expect things to happen very fast. Watch your plants - they are going to tell you what to do. Not some unknown all-knowing person on the internet.

--Nikolay


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Greetings CatG! +1 on the above posts. El Natural is great for a self-sustaining-ish set up and DO YOUR RESEARCH! 

The cichlids/peacock bass are great at destroying planted tanks, so decide carefully.

A bit of "side-advice" I'll give: I thought I could do El Natural and bump up the lighting levels, add a touch of ferts, etc... to give me an edge over other El Naturals. A very long story and 6 months later, I realized it's just easier to keep the lighting lower ( 1.5 or so WattsPerGallon as oppossed to the 2.6WPG I was trying to push) and not have to mess with anything else.

Not that you can't do it....but if your goal is simplicity, go with simple. 

Welcome to APC!
-Dave


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## CatG (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks so much for the advice so far!

I am still very confused, and it seems the more I read, the more confused I get. There is so much conflicting information out there that I don't have any idea what's right.

How about having a planted tank with schooling Cardinal Tetras, and a couple of Angel fish? Would these two get along? Would the tank requirements be the same (or close to) for each that they could both survive? Would either of them destroy the plants?

If this match up will work, than I will try to ask some more specific questions about setting the tank up for these. I guess the questions I asked were kind of general. I apologize, I just don't really know what to ask. I'm trying though.  I've been researching on the net for hours.

Cat


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

CatG said:


> Thanks so much for the advice so far!
> 
> I am still very confused, and it seems the more I read, the more confused I get. There is so much conflicting information out there that I don't have any idea what's right.
> 
> ...


keep it simple, like Davemonkey said! angels are awesome for planted tanks, and school of tetras would keep it with fish from the same/similar region! and maybe even a school of corie cats and a few appistos and there is your south american set up  of course, make suee you add fish slowly and check thebasic water parameters...


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## CatG (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks so much!

I've done even more research (yes, my head is going to explode), and I found out some more things. I discovered that the angels are semi aggresive, and was wondering if a discus (sp?) would be better. The only problem is that the discus will be too big for my tank when full grown, and I did not come across a dwarf variety. Plus, they are expensive, so I am a bit afraid to try them right off the bat. I may hold off on the bigger fish for now and just go with the Tetras.

I also looked up some plants, and was happy to discover that I can probably get away with simply using gravel as a substrate. Some of the plants I looked at did not require soil, and were well suited to the water type a tetra needs. The other plants need some soil, but I was wondering if I could make a "soil pouch" out of cheesecloth and root the plant in that? 

Here is my current plan - Gravel substrate, some sort of hardscape, some combination of Java Moss, Java Fern, Water Sprite, Dwarf Hairgrass, etc, 6 Tetra to start (more later, introduced slowly to reach a population of maybe 20), 2 Nanus Cory Cats introduced a few weeks after the first 6 Tetra (eventually getting up to a population of 6 cats), and then maybe an Angelfish or Discus. Does this sound good? What sort of maintenance can I expect from this, aside from thinning out the plants occassionally? I'm guessing this won't be self sustaining like I wanted, but I am hoping it will be relatively low maintenance - my main concern is that the tank stays pretty clean on it's own, with only infrequent water changes needed. If there is anything else I can add to this setup to help balance it, please let me know. I can also modify any of these planned additions if they are likely to cause me more problems.

Thanks again, and thanks for being so welcoming and patient!
Cat


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## CatG (Apr 10, 2010)

Couple more questions - I plan on running the filter to help keep this clean. I bought one pack of BioMax, but I noticed there are 6 chambers in the filter. What should I put in them? There were 4 bags of black stuff in there (charcoal?), but I accidentally ripped some of them while rinsing them. I'm not sure what type of stuff is available to put in these chambers, and would greatly appreciate any advice you could give me on what would be best to use for the plants/fish I plan to have. I don't know anything about this stuff, so I would need to know what to get and how many chambers to fill with each thing.

Also, should I allow the plants to get established before I add the 6 Tetras, or should I add them right away to get the cycle going? Should I add the cats at the same time as the Tetras to help clean the tank, or wait for a bit?

Thanks,
Cat


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

As you probably actually know and as many of the respondents have said there is no such thing as a self sustaining tank but you can come close by keeping the lights down so that plants do not grow too fast and you do not have to add ferts.

The best advice, other than what you are doing, is to go slow. Add just a few fish at a time. Remember that Cories are very tolerant little predators who will eat whatever they can get (as if they actually have a choice) but they do usually inhabit the bottom of a tank with frequent trips to the surface for a gulp of air even though they are not air breathing Anabantids (there is some controversy about this) similar to Bettas and Gouramis. More of fewer types of fish added slowly is always better than two of each of a bunch of species.

Carbon which is usually activated carbon rather then Charcoal is only good for removing chemicals (some good some bad) from a tank but after a week or two it becomes just a place for bacteria cultures to live on and does not do much after a while. If you have broken open a bag of carbon there is probably a mess to clean up. Carbon floats and gets all over. I do not know what Biomax is. Plain old cotton batting from the Dry Goods section is cheap and works well. Simply rinse the batting in old tank water and put it back in the compartment without getting it too clean. It lasts almost forever and does not cost much.

Adding fish right away is OK if you plant heavy, monitor the water and are prepared to do lots of water changes if the ammonia starts to show up. The safest way is to wait the several weeks (up to six) until adding fish but this is tough to do for most people.


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## CatG (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks for the advice!

I can wait the 6 weeks to add fish, I just thought I had to add either fish or ammonia to get the cycle going. If I don't add the fish, should I add ammonia? When I DO add fish, should I start with the tetras, or go with some algae eaters?

What would be a good light source/wpg? I checked the light that came with this tank, and it's only a 40 watt bulb. It's a Power-Glo something or other, made in Japan. I have not gotten to research much about the types of lighting, so I really have no idea what to get or how much. For the plants I am considering, they seem to require mostly moderate light, with one or two being low light. Should I do 2 wpg? What type of light(s) should I get?

As for the filter, it isn't installed yet, so thankfully there's no mess.  The tank is still completely empty, waiting for me to figure out what the heck I'm doing. lol I'm not exactly sure what the BioMax stuff is either. It looks like little tubes, with lots of nooks and crannies. The guy I bought the tank off of said it was good stuff for getting the bacteria going. Since he recommended it, and since I didn't know how long his filter had been sitting around unused or what type of conditions were in his tank when he removed it, I decided to rinse everything and start from scratch. From my numerous trips to the pet store, I saw that there were different kinds of media available to put in these filters, but I have yet to really do much research on them. I figured I had to know what I was going to put in my tank before I could figure out how best to filter it. If the cotton batting works, I may add some of that. Cheap and long lasting is a GOOD thing. 

Again, thanks for your help!
Cat


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

Wow! Those are a lot of questions. I am not sure that I can answer them adequately so if anyone has a better idea...feel free. But here goes.

Any creature needs food to survive, including bactria. We are only interested in the type or types that convert ammonia and the product to nitrites. Bacteria are very small and seem to reproduce very quickly but once they get rockin and rollin, which can take several weeks (bear in mind that we are interested in two species, out of many, that convert bad stuff into less bad stuff) and every bacterium reproduces it self so once you have a bunch, reproduction can seem very fast. Bacteria only exist on something including fish so water itself does not usually contain many bacteria. Providing a food source such as a dead shrimp of food can provide food for the bacteria and lots of plants can use the ammonia.

Like I said before I add fish right away but the safest way is to wait until the water tests say it is OK. What species that you add is entirely up to you, just go slow. Otos are OK, after the tank is going along nicely, select fat ones and cross your fingers. Otos are usually collected live without much concern for their health or well being. Always bear in mind that a lot of fish do not survive the shipping and handling and once you get a fish and keep it for a while you own it. Do not expect to see the Otos a lot if there are a bunch of plants but they will be busy eating algae that you probably cannot see. There are a lot of different types of algae and Otos only eat a certain type so waiting out the inevitable or getting rid of any type, or the conditions that allow it to thrive, is the smart choice.

AS far as lights are concerned I bought from AHS but I am waiting until the LEDs are perfected. T-5s are apparently the flavor of the month just now and according to the experts not as much is required. I am sure that some knowledgeble person will chime in here. Always remember that corroboration helps or at least some time (a few days) so that anyone interested can dispute the claim. Sex, age and just about any demographic can be intimated or claimed but you never know so have a care.

The Biomax sounds OK and is similar to what I have in mine and a good rinse never hurts. The gravel may not be OK for your tank. Selecting some substrate, if you plan on Cories, that will not harm them is good. I use Fluvals that I bought at an Auction but most folk here seem to favor the Ehiems. Please keep in mind that anything will eventually fail, not if...when. It is smart to always keep a spare for when the device fails. A tank full of critters can be expensive, emotionally and fiscally, so a bit of insurance is a wise move. Many of the items are expensive in this hobby and not too many of us want to add up the costs so it is nice to find something that does not cost a lot.


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## Shurik (Mar 22, 2008)

All right, how is it going, CatG? 

I know exactly what you meant by saying your head is just about to explode. My first fish tank was sitting empty for quite a while, I had to read, read and read. 
You have Fluval 304 filter, so I got you its manual on line, 27 pages of typical manual literature, and only 1/16 of it is in English and can be comprehended, but since you got the filter, here it is, it might help a little, although it is just a manual, you know:

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/aquatic/Fluval04.pdf

Fluval 304 is recommended for tanks up to 70 gal, and usually in manuals they give you bigger number then it really can support. But since you are planning to have plants in the tank, it might be all right. 304 is the older model of the 305, and basically they are the same. 
Here is some video about the newer model 05, it might be helpful to see some parts of it, especially about the media stuff you got and main principals of how it works, so you know where everything goes and what it does. Sorry the video is so boring, but it is very... visual!






What really bothers me is your light fixture. It might be simply too dark for plants to grow. But let's get through the filters first, at least you got one.

Hope some of it helps  Little by little, you'll get it all, don't worry!


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

so you want to add moderate light, i use a catalina light is a t5 HO (high output) energy efficient fixture and they are great! since your now talking slightly higher light, i defenitly suggest a plant substrate such as eco complete or anyother of your choice. lets put it this way, just get it! lol
as far as angels being aggresive, nhaaaaaaaa...they can and will eat tiny fish or shrimp, but in my experience they do very well! (unless you get them to start breeding which can be a diff story) anyhow, hope ur not getting bored with so many responses, keep updates coming!

oh, and if you decide to go with catalina lights, give them a call and tell them you were refered from the forum, they might and probably will give you a deal!


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## Shurik (Mar 22, 2008)

Exactly, DDavila06, this is how it should go - easy and fun! 

Yup, the lights. It seems difficult and confusing, at least it was my most painful thing to figure out, and plus, it is kida expensive. But like DDavila06 and many others will say, just get it. 
I second that you need to look at t5 HO (high output) energy efficient fixture, I do have those, and I use eco-complete substrate just as well, I use it with a little dirt underneath, but it is optional, and there you go - you got everything you need. (Almost)

I think I just founded some place with Teklights - pretty good prices!!! I know people like this brand a lot; and they do have some other kind of t5 fixtures with bulbs included. It is not an aquatic site, but it does look like they have right light fixtures, do they? I need some expert help and opinion on what is it. Can someone check out this place? help! :yield:

http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/t5-teklight-4ft-grow-lights-c-321_643_26.html

And what is that Hydrofarm T5 4FT for $129? Never seen such prices for any of that. Perhaps it is missing something, or I missed something about it?
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/hydrofarm-t5-grow-lights-c-321_738.html

So all you need is to figure out how many watt you need and what kind of a fixture you can get, dementions and all. And get it! :supz:


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## CatG (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks so much! There's a lot more to a planted tank than I would have thought, and the prices for the stuff is MUCH more than I would have expected.  It looks like it's going to be a LONG while before I can get this thing fully stocked. 

Thanks again for the help!
Cat


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## Shurik (Mar 22, 2008)

Hey, cheer up, CatG! :hug: It is not as bad as it looks. Basically you just need the lights, and you are almost there. I got my first light fixture on the ebay and it is still going strong, you can search Craigslist, try DYI or go check "for sale or trade" in here. You already got the tank, the stand and the filter, woo-hoo! 
Everything else you can add up gradually, but then again, fish tanks require patience. I can understand the deficit of it myself, trust me!
Start mesuring the length of your tank for the lights. This is step one! :focus:


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## sahari (Apr 13, 2010)

hello CatG..

I am also new on this planted tank thing. What I did was just start with easy to grow plant (normally cheap one) and add fish later. Mine is community type like tetras and other small fish. Of course some of them died..... but till now I do have plants and fish that I started with. Hands on experience is the best teacher. 

Good Luck !!!


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