# Hard tap water and EI dosing



## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

I have very hard tap water. It tests to just over 200ppm total hardness and this is also consistent with information published by the local municipality. I assume this is mostly due to Ca and not Mg, but cannot be sure of that. 

I follow an EI dosing regime for low(ish) light. My question is should I dose Mg at all in an effort to get a better Ca/Mg ratio, or just leave the hardness alone because there is probably enough Mg in the tap water anyway?

I'm sure that I would be better off knowing the ratio of Ca/Mg in the tap water but I don't know how to get that information and am hoping there is a good "rule of thumb" strategy for high hardness water.


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## OTPT (Sep 27, 2010)

There are magnesium test kits.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

You should add Mg for a while and see what happens. Plants are the best test kits


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## OTPT (Sep 27, 2010)

If you want to know it quick and accurately to put the doubt to rest.
You can mix your own Mg solution from distilled water and epsom salt 
using Wet's excellent calculator to test the kit. 
http://rota.la/


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

roland6543 said:


> I'm sure that I would be better off knowing the ratio of Ca/Mg in the tap water but I don't know how to get that information and am hoping there is a good "rule of thumb" strategy for high hardness water.


There really is no good "rule of thumb" strategy for high hardness water because high Ca concentrations can inhibit the uptake of Mg, leading to Mg deficiencies. In other words, a hard water with low Ca:Mg ratio would be fine while one with a high Ca:Mg ratio would not because the plants may have difficulties up taking Mg. This is why it is important to determine the Ca/Mg ratio. I would agree w/ Wet's suggestion - dose Mg. Tom Barr reports that Ca deficiencies are rare; Mg deficiencies are more common due to either insufficient Mg or Ca inhibition.

(Also, Mg salts are deceiving in looks - the crystals are not very dense and the Mg percentage is very low (~10%) so it looks like you're adding a lot of chemicals, but really am not).


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

wet said:


> You should add Mg for a while and see what happens. Plants are the best test kits


I've been adding some Mg, but definitely on the low side. Should I target mid range and see what happens? Can I overdose Mg?


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

roland6543 said:


> Can I overdose Mg?


No. See the method of controlled imbalance for more info.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

From your posts I am sure you already know all these answers, so instead I'm going to say how I'd do it. I really hope other gardeners say how they'd do it. So I'm just going to ramble for a while. 

1) I am not well versed on the over dosing of anything except or CO2 and ammonia/um. By well versed I mean I know a little something about killing fish. In 8 years in the hobby it just hasn't come up for N, P, Mg, whatever with regular water changes. My local tap is hard water by the way. 

2) Troubleshooting anything but CO2 is pretty much the same for any nutrient. 

So , I'd:

1) Use the calc to figure out a dose that pretty much agrees with Walstad, PPS-Pro, and EI. Use your gut to make a best fit line. Resubmits on the calc are free 

2) Halve 1)

3) Dose 2). In the case of Mg I'd either add it to my traces and dose on my trace schedule or dose it once a week immediately after water change. 

4) Big water change at the end of the week. 

5) take 3/4 of 1)

6) Dose 5)

7) Big water change at the end of the week. 

8) Dose 1)

9) Big water change at the end of the week. 

10) Repeat full dose and water change. 

11) Check out my plants. Repeat 10) if I am troubleshooting a tricky plant. 

I would speed up all of the above (more water changes then immediate dose to target) if I was all geeked up about messing with my tank with otherwise healthy plants. If I did not have healthy plants, everything changes. 

(The problem in that case is probably not Mg.)


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'll up my Mg dosing based upon wets strategy.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Does the water quality report list calcium separately? 

Often naturally hard water already has both Ca and Mg, but not always.

Are you seeing Mg deficiency in the plants? 

I would not dose Mg unless you know that it is in short supply.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't specifically think I have a Mg deficiency, but I was trying to figure out what would be a good starting point for all my ferts, and Mg was one I couldn't figure out. I've attached some pics-do you think there may be a deficiency? You will notice a dark stripe on some crypts but they don't look like veins to me.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

In the third picture I see something going on. Did those plants lay around out of the water for a bit? That sort of edge burn looks like what happens when the leaves dry out. 

I would say none of those pics show magnesium deficiency.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

OK, I'll slowly reduce Mg and see what happens. Those Crypts were sent by mail in the summer so they could have dried out a bit.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

So we don't know each othe or anything but I follow your posts on the Internet.

If you're looking for a baseline, just pick the EI values for your targets using http://rota.la and ignore what your kits and water report tell you. This may read like blind faith but there are literally bagillionty (approx) tanks that do this effectively. (Check the last AGA contest: Almost all of them DIY/EI!!) Buy in for two months, including water changes. *Then* think about whether you need to limit any particular nutrients.

Stop adjusting so much. Stability is more important than target. But buy in with those of us who post tank pics. Look at what houseofcards is doing for example. Give us a shot: we think you can grow an awesome tank, too.

FWIW


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

OK, I can detect some frustration with this newbie (me).... and honestly I don't blame anyone. I have been circling my dosing issues, trying to "perfect" a starting point. 

Having said that, and if you'll allow a brief aside, it is rather difficult getting into this side of the hobby. There are many contrasting opinions, and each side has many compelling arguments to support their views. So each time I receive advice that seems logical, I'm inclined to respond accordingly. However, I've realised that this leads to something vaguely akin to "averaging the extremes"..... not a smart move.

So, the plan I'm picking is EI. I am adjusting my doses to the ones specified by rota.la beginning tomorrow, and I'll dose only twice a week because my light is less that moderate. For now I'll ignore test results and try things out for a couple of months.

Blind Faith... here I come (I always liked Eric Clapton and Stevie Winwood et al's album)... ah now I'm showing my age.

Finally, I completely realise that everyone is trying to help, and for that I'm VERY grateful.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

(Not frustration. Just a friendly reminder that it's a garden, not a petrii dish.)

By this side of the hobby, do you mean growing plants or nutrient levels? If you mean growing plants, I think you'll find the folks who you know can grow plants (they trade plants and post pics) are all doing the same things. If nutrient levels, focus more on the principles (feed your plants!) than the specifics. When a guy like AaronT says he doses Mg or a guy like krisw says he is mindful of Fe, realize these are gardeners who've already grown almost anything they've wanted. The first 80% -- principles -- are much easier than the last 20%, as they say... spending time on the 20% before you get the 80% is pain. 

Even if you want to adjust levels to specific targets -- and I love that you want to and I love it too -- experimenting with less than healthy plants will only feed you frustration and lies. You'll make correlations that simply aren't true because you've addressed some deficiency while exposing another. Grow an otherwise healthy garden first.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

I have quite a bit of BBA growing in various places. Some on filter outlets and heater clamps, also on ornamental rocks and stuff. I give the tank a clean weekly but the stuff is difficult to remove and it seems that I'm slowly losing ground. 

I have been dosing EI twice a week, and I add excel daily because I probably lack a bit in CO2. 

What should I do? Reduce the lighting period a bit?

I may need to start a new thread for this post, but I'll first start here because of the related history.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

From Wet (added here to keep the thread info together):

I think you should cheat. If you are dosing Glut/Excel into the tank, stop. Instead, pick up a baby feeder or Insulin syringe (no needle necessary) and squirt the Glut directly into the BBA. Your goal here is partfold:

1) Get or kill all the BBA out of the tank.
2) To accomplish 1), you may have to squirt Glut onto the BBA a couple times a week + PWC. If the BBA does not turn red/change color, you need to dose more glut onto it. Eventually it will turn white and die off.
3) Continue your dosing despite the above.
4) The above is temporary. You just want t kill the established BBA and stop it from spreading while you feel the plants, and the plants will eventually outcompete the BBA.

BUT you don't have to do the above and can do such things as increase CO2, balance dosing, tweak stuff, etc, to stop BBA from growing then eventually let it die out. I think all that stuff takes too long and you should cheat with direct doses of Glut to kill BBA per the instructions above. JMO


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

My time is a bit limited at the moment, so more than weekly water changes are a bit problematic for me right now. So, trying to meet the same goals as you suggest, what do you think of:

1) Stop the pump.
2) Using syringe, inject 10 ml excel over affected area. (70g tank)
3) Leave for 20 mins, then restart pump.

I've scrubbed the pipes/ornaments, and got most of the BBA for now. But some plants such as the Christmas Moss and Java Ferns seem to be carrying quite a bit. I plan on injecting over one area at a time. I guess I can increase the excel dose a bit more, but I am also concerned about my more sensitive fish (apistos, otos and loaches?).

If you think this is ineffective and higher doses of excel and PWC are definitely required, I'll guess I'll have to find the time. In that case what dose do you suggest? Would I base the amount of PWC on the extent of overdose of excel? In other words if I dose twice the max excel qty, then I do 50% PWC? Continue to dose ferts as normal.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

I like your plan. But the Glut may affect the moss, too. I have no good advice here unless you can get the moss out of the tank or go BBA-specific algae eaters. (True SAE for example.) But maybe better moss growers have advice...

I *think* Plantbrain was going to post some stuff on Glut half life on his forum but I'm not seeing it on a quick scroll tonight. I think it's a pretty good bet that most of the Glut becomes inactive by day 2 or 3, based on experience and manufacturer (Seachem, Azoo) recommendations. I'm more into the water changes after messing with algae to get bad stuff out of the tank. But yeah, whenever I dose something a lot, 50% is about my target for the reset. I don't think about proportion as much as the reset. (So, when I'm really freaked out about something I am doing I may do multiple 50% water changes or, say, a 70% water change.)

Your post got me thinking about how dependent I am on my Python and a sink within distance of my tank, by the way. In thinking about it, the ability to do easy and large water changes is up there with CO2 for easy ways to grow plants for me. Kind of interesting. Sorry I forget pwc is not as easy for everyone though.

I'd totally feel comfortable about spot dosing 10mL Excel into 70g a couple of times a week with the fish and inverts I've kept, fwiw. I like your plan of hitting one target area at a time, so that if you need to increase your dose for that area, you limit the total tank dosage.


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## Woody0229 (Oct 29, 2012)

Oh I am having the same issue. I hate madison water!!


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

Started a new thread in the Algae section "Still struggling with BBA......"

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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