# Anyone doing acid?? Humic or fulvic, that is!!



## saddletramp

Stopped by the hydroponic store yesterday for some supplies. While there, the guys started expounding about humid acid and fulvic acid and how beneficial they are for plants. They had various products there, but very little to offer factually.
They have never pushed anything before. They even gave me a bottle of humid acid produced by BioAg to try. It is called Ful-Power humid acid. All they asked was for some feedback.
It is time to ask questions here regarding use for aquatic plants as well as such things as emersed grown Crpts and stem plants.
Anyone out there have any experience or recommendations for use of these things as fertilizing amendments or whatever??
Bill


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## Phil Edwards

Humic and fulvic acids can be very beneficial to emergent grown aquatics and hydroponic plants. Some research indicates that they're beneficial to submersed grown aquatics too, but I think the effect isn't as pronounced as it is in other methods of culture. One of the main benefits of acidifying hydroponic systems is keeping certain minerals in solution where they're accessible to the plants. Because we tend to acidify our tanks with CO2 other means of acidification aren't always necessary.

That being said, I can see these acids having great benefit to emerged culture and tanks that don't get CO2 supplementation. Dose the stuff sparingly though, the typical form of these acids is basically backwater "extract".


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## Tugg

Definitely keep an eye on your pH. You don't want to drop it so low that nutrients become unavailable.










Pic stolen from one of Zapins' post.


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## saddletramp

So, what you are saying is that for emersed culture, for example, if the substrate pH is already 4.5 to 6.0' and caused by acidic leafmold, you do not need to use these additives? Is that the general idea?

Or, are there some valuable substances in humates or fulvic acid that will benefit plant growth in an already acidic environment?

I doubt that these products would further lower an already low pH any further, but am not certain about it.

Any input would be appreciated.
Bill


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## king kong

I have a 2.5 gallon container of this stuff. I will do a pH test today.
I believe this material is for adding to soils that have no or little organic matter. But if you use the proper fertilizers that are available for plant growth without all the mother nature breakdown requirements, you should be good to go.


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## king kong

One of my best fertilizer products I use on my nursery, was invented by my next door neighbor. No it's not dog poop. It is a liquid blend of secondary (calcium, magnesium, sulfur) and micros with yeast hydrolysate, humic acid and alpha-keto acid. Now this guy is a real guru in plant science and he put these 'acids' in his recipe.
This stuff is a remarkable product to which I will be trying out on the crypt experimental monkeys.


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## kyle2088

Peat Moss is high in Humic Acid and lots of peoople have been using Peat for years in the Aquarium for planted tanks. 

I have been adding Peat Granuales from Laguna to my tanks for a couple of years now. My plants roots attach and grow right through the little granuals. I chose the granuals as they are not as messy as regualar peat especially when moving around plants. I notice my plant growth improves however lasts about 6 months to a year when the granuals appear to have become exhausted then I just throw more in.

My understanding in that humate humic acid etc aids in the uptake of fertilizers by plants. Its like a supercharger for plants. I believe the original study/finding came from Russia in the 60's

In nature peat layers are the top layer. Underneath the peat has turned (decomposed and compressed) to leonardite or brown coal and underneath that you have black coal.

Leonardite (or the middle layer) has a very high level of humic acid and is used in alot of the humic acid (humate) liquid fertilizer additives. Leonardite Coarse granuals are heavy, lightish brown in colour and very hard/compact and used in organic farming. The form I am using is not noticeably soluable in water. There are water soluable forms that you add/mix with water and add to plants. 

I have an emersed set up using leonardite from a freshwater source in Alberta (Most sources of leonardite are dried up salt water beds). I have been growing plants in this substrate for 3 months now without a problem and actually like using it as a substrate for growth, look, and lack of it breaking down quickly like some of the other organic substrates. 

I will be trying submerged next.


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## saddletramp

So, what would one do with liquid humic or fulvic acid for growing emersed plants?
I have instructions showing a rate of 20ml /gallon. It makes no mention about the substrate it is being applied to.
Are plants affected by cumulative affects of multiple dosing over time?
If you grow plants in acidic oak leafmold, should you still use this "stuff"?
Bill


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## Phil Edwards

The greatest benefit of using organic acids like these is in modifying the pH of a substrate/soil to change the valence state of iron, manganese, and boron in hydroponic, aka emerged culture, and terrestrial/traditional horticulture to increase solubility of those elements. Dry Leonardite or peat granules are useful additions to soil substrates for the same reasons as above. Supplementing liquid humic or fulvic acids to the water column when it's already acidified will have little additional benefit other than potentially supplementing trace elements.

If you're using leaf mould already I would hold off on significant dosing of these acids. They would be a good addition to your fertilizing regimen once the leaf mould has been used up chemically.


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## saddletramp

Very interesting thoughts you offer. 
This "stuff" does not have much definitive scientific info available, especially info applying to its application and usage. What is available is like a. Cross between science and black magic.
Am waiting for a call from the biochemist at BioAg. Let's see what he has to say.
It is interesting how much oak leafmold breaks down and seems to disappear from pots. One must always be replenishing it. 
It seems organic acids open the door for nutrient transfer into the cells, that's in layman's terms.
Bill


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## Darkcobra

I recently picked up some humic acid powder, just to play with. I didn't expect any miracles, and wasn't disappointed. But there were a couple of curious things:

1) My tapwater has 8°KH. Before using it in a tank, I did a test with tapwater, to see how much it would lower the PH. It's humic _acid_, right? But it wasn't very much. I only managed to get a neutral PH before the solution became too black to further distinguish color. Did I get some bad acid? 

2) I water column dosed it for two weeks in a tank, in sufficient quantity that it looked like a squid inked in there. I didn't notice any visible response from the plants. But at the end of the two weeks, I decided to do some tests on a few tanks. And found the nitrate/phosphate/iron levels in the humic tank were substantially lower than I would have expected, given the overall tank setup and compared to other tanks. Nothing concrete, I don't test regular enough to make a precise before/after comparison; but it was odd enough to make me take notice.


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## king kong

king kong said:


> One of my best fertilizer products I use on my nursery, was invented by my next door neighbor. No it's not dog poop. It is a liquid blend of secondary (calcium, magnesium, sulfur) and micros with yeast hydrolysate, humic acid and alpha-keto acid. Now this guy is a real guru in plant science and he put these 'acids' in his recipe.
> This stuff is a remarkable product to which I will be trying out on the crypt experimental monkeys.


Read about Keyplex 350.


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## old 97

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/gh/docs/prod_labels/floralicious_grow.pdf

I have been playing with this.


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## Phil Edwards

I've been using those same materials in raw form and my own formulation on my emergent setup and the kelp extract in the 60 gal tank. The emergent system seems to like them but the 60 gal hasn't been established long enough for me to tell if there's a difference or not.


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## king kong

I have been reading about venus fly traps. Some of the no no's are very similar to the odd ball crypts.
I am avoiding fertilizer now if at all possible.


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## Trail_Mix

saddletramp said:


> Very interesting thoughts you offer.
> This "stuff" does not have much definitive scientific info available, especially info applying to its application and usage. What is available is like a. Cross between science and black magic.
> Am waiting for a call from the biochemist at BioAg. Let's see what he has to say.
> It is interesting how much oak leafmold breaks down and seems to disappear from pots. One must always be replenishing it.
> It seems organic acids open the door for nutrient transfer into the cells, that's in layman's terms.
> Bill


I wish I had more time, but I have to leave soon, otherwise I'd dig up some links to some quality reading with some solid info for you. There has been TONS of research done on humic and fulvic acids, and frankly, there is TONS OF scientific info. Saddletramp, I am not attacking you, I chose to quote your reply because I feel it is indicative of a larger problem. You complain about a lack of scientific research. If you want "scientific research," rather than "black magic," there is TONS OF IT out there, you are just LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACES! Or oftentimes, NOT LOOKING AT ALL! I have spent countless hours reading about all sorts of topics relating to plants, aquatics, soil science, humic/fulvic acids, chemistry, ecology, etc., etc., and when I do come back to forums like these, I always find tons of threads and posts where people post questions that remain unanswered. THE INFO IS OUT THERE! Why does this generation think it is simpler to think up a cutesy title for a thread to ask a question and post it on a forum, when you could simply use GOOGLE to find QUALITY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH CHOCKFULL OF INFORMATION! Do you really want to read about this stuff so that you can UNDERSTAND HOW AND WHY things work the way they do? Or do you just want someone to tell you "yes" or "no," or "do this," or "do that," and "don't do this," and "don't do that." I am going to come back to this thread at another time and give you guys good information, but I mean why wait? Why not just find out yourself? You see, companies like BioAg, which may make great products, or may make "magic elixirs," don't want to tell you what's in their products, and educate you about things. They want to sell ridiculously overpriced products to people who are growing "hydroponic heirloom tomatoes." Now I have nothing against those types of growers, but the fact is most of them want a quick answer and basically for someone to hold their hand so that they can spend their time making money growing weeds, whereas this is a forum for people interested in growing rare aquatic Aroids from Borneo and plants of that nature. Frankly I could tell you anything I wanted about humic or fulvic acids, and you'd probably believe me if I wrote it eloquently enough. Do you see what I'm getting at? This forum should serve to open some MEANINGFUL DIALOGUE. Not just to serve as a place for you to get a quick answer, that's what google is for! Would you rather wait for me to come back and post some information, or post some links to primary sources written by scientists? Now you could read what I write, or you could spend your time reading stuff written by SCIENTISTS, or you could go and look at a hydroponic company that tells you they have "tons of top-notch scientists spending thousands of hours putting in research to create" their produts. It's all MARKETING BUZZ! READ THE STUFF WRITTEN BY THE SCIENTISTS! LEARN FOR YOURSELF, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! Trust me, if you spend your time LEARNING about how these things work, rather than discovering bits and pieces of second-hand information or anecdotal reports, the next time you have a question, well, you might not have that question, because EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED AND THE MORE YOU LEARN THE MORE YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AND THE LESS YOU'LL HAVE TO ASK PEOPLE! Sorry for the ranting, but I don't know why, I've tried to write this post like five times and I'm not on my usual computer and I don't know what button that I am accidentally hitting, but it makes me lose everything I wrote, and it is very frustrating. To answer the OP's question, yes, I DO DO ACID, TONS OF IT, HOW ABOUT YOU? You know what else I do? I don't drink anymore, I spend my time researching, learning, growing beautiful rare plants and breeding fish and shrimp and oh yeah, I also use humic and fulvic acids. Whether it is in my container plants, my emersed set-ups, my aquariums, etc. Sorry again for this rant, I am not in the best mood right now and am in too much of a hurry to proof read this, but when I get the time, probably tomorrow or something, I will try and come back and edit this post and cut out a lot of the fat, I'm sure I repeated myself, since like I said, I've been having a lot of trouble typing up this post.

For those who want the long story short, YES THEY DO WORK AND DO STUFF, but do you find that answer satisfying? I mean c'mon, if you understood HOW AND WHY they worked, you wouldn't need to be skeptical, (don't get me wrong, one should always be skeptical, but that's why you RESEARCH!), and you would be able to THINK FOR YOURSELF! Otherwise, you'll keep coming back to forums and asking questions and not understanding what is going on in your tanks or with your plants.

/end rant


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## saddletramp

I have gotten the info I need via BioAg, some kind forum members and copious research. The product from BioAg was given to me to try on my plants. No one charged me for it. All this the result of dealing with kind people. That is what a forum and life is supposed to be about, kindness, helping other people and the like.

Then I read the previous rant. To whoever wrote, it's time to see a doctor or get some help. 
In life people who use a forum to write crap like that are too small to talk that way to people face to face. They do not have the guts to do it and hide faceless behind a keyboard.

By the way, I laughed my butt off when I read the rant. All there is to say is, "get a life"! 

Write whatever you wish. Make a fool of yourself. And.......have a great day!

Bill


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## Chaoslord

Trail_Mix said:


> I wish I had more time, but I have to leave soon, otherwise I'd dig up some links to some quality reading with some solid info for you. There has been TONS of research done on humic and fulvic acids, and frankly, there is TONS OF scientific info. Saddletramp, I am not attacking you, I chose to quote your reply because I feel it is indicative of a larger problem. You complain about a lack of scientific research. If you want "scientific research," rather than "black magic," there is TONS OF IT out there, you are just LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACES! Or oftentimes, NOT LOOKING AT ALL! I have spent countless hours reading about all sorts of topics relating to plants, aquatics, soil science, humic/fulvic acids, chemistry, ecology, etc., etc., and when I do come back to forums like these, I always find tons of threads and posts where people post questions that remain unanswered. THE INFO IS OUT THERE! Why does this generation think it is simpler to think up a cutesy title for a thread to ask a question and post it on a forum, when you could simply use GOOGLE to find QUALITY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH CHOCKFULL OF INFORMATION! Do you really want to read about this stuff so that you can UNDERSTAND HOW AND WHY things work the way they do? Or do you just want someone to tell you "yes" or "no," or "do this," or "do that," and "don't do this," and "don't do that." I am going to come back to this thread at another time and give you guys good information, but I mean why wait? Why not just find out yourself? You see, companies like BioAg, which may make great products, or may make "magic elixirs," don't want to tell you what's in their products, and educate you about things. They want to sell ridiculously overpriced products to people who are growing "hydroponic heirloom tomatoes." Now I have nothing against those types of growers, but the fact is most of them want a quick answer and basically for someone to hold their hand so that they can spend their time making money growing weeds, whereas this is a forum for people interested in growing rare aquatic Aroids from Borneo and plants of that nature. Frankly I could tell you anything I wanted about humic or fulvic acids, and you'd probably believe me if I wrote it eloquently enough. Do you see what I'm getting at? This forum should serve to open some MEANINGFUL DIALOGUE. Not just to serve as a place for you to get a quick answer, that's what google is for! Would you rather wait for me to come back and post some information, or post some links to primary sources written by scientists? Now you could read what I write, or you could spend your time reading stuff written by SCIENTISTS, or you could go and look at a hydroponic company that tells you they have "tons of top-notch scientists spending thousands of hours putting in research to create" their produts. It's all MARKETING BUZZ! READ THE STUFF WRITTEN BY THE SCIENTISTS! LEARN FOR YOURSELF, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! Trust me, if you spend your time LEARNING about how these things work, rather than discovering bits and pieces of second-hand information or anecdotal reports, the next time you have a question, well, you might not have that question, because EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED AND THE MORE YOU LEARN THE MORE YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AND THE LESS YOU'LL HAVE TO ASK PEOPLE! Sorry for the ranting, but I don't know why, I've tried to write this post like five times and I'm not on my usual computer and I don't know what button that I am accidentally hitting, but it makes me lose everything I wrote, and it is very frustrating. To answer the OP's question, yes, I DO DO ACID, TONS OF IT, HOW ABOUT YOU? You know what else I do? I don't drink anymore, I spend my time researching, learning, growing beautiful rare plants and breeding fish and shrimp and oh yeah, I also use humic and fulvic acids. Whether it is in my container plants, my emersed set-ups, my aquariums, etc. Sorry again for this rant, I am not in the best mood right now and am in too much of a hurry to proof read this, but when I get the time, probably tomorrow or something, I will try and come back and edit this post and cut out a lot of the fat, I'm sure I repeated myself, since like I said, I've been having a lot of trouble typing up this post.
> 
> For those who want the long story short, YES THEY DO WORK AND DO STUFF, but do you find that answer satisfying? I mean c'mon, if you understood HOW AND WHY they worked, you wouldn't need to be skeptical, (don't get me wrong, one should always be skeptical, but that's why you RESEARCH!), and you would be able to THINK FOR YOURSELF! Otherwise, you'll keep coming back to forums and asking questions and not understanding what is going on in your tanks or with your plants.
> 
> /end rant


Really?

Are you sure your not actually on acid?


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## ferchu22

Hi Bill, what happened with this? Have you finally give it a try? Did you have any good/bad results?BR,


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## saddletramp

Actually, I could not see any difference.
As most of the plants here are grown in acidic substrate which already has lots of organic material in it, that might be the reason.
I do have a tank with less organic material in the substrate. There was no difference noted over a four month period in that tank either.
Not saying it doesn't produce results. It is just what I saw in an unscientific observation here.

Wish a few more people would give this stuff a try.
Bill


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