# Another Algae thread from a newbie



## Roll_Tide#1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Hi all, I have been hanging out reading posts for a couple of months here and missed the last meeting. Had a baby. It trumped the meeting. I have learned a lot from this site and from Tex Gal (shes great). I look forward to meeting some of you people at the next meeting. 

Here is my problem that I have been trying to hold at bay until the next meeting so I could get some guidance. It has gotten to the point of immediate attention. 

What I have is a typical 55gallon. I have Tex Gals aquasoil from her old 125 about 3" deep with the powersand. My lighting is two 48" double Glo T5HO (two 6700k and two 10k). I just added the second fixture about two weeks ago. Before I had a 36" retro fit T8 10k fixture. I use an Xp2 for filteration with bio rings, sponges, and quilt batting for media. I clean the canister and rinse the sponges at least once a month. Its really on a as needed basis when flow slows or I have been moving stuff around. I run pressurized CO2 that is run through a glass defuser then sucked up by a Maxi Jet 600 powerhead and blown all over the tank for 24hrs. I keep the drop checker light green, almost yellow. The drop checker is positioned on the opposite side of the tank from the powerhead. Lighting was gradually worked up to 5hrs on, 2 off, 4hrs on before I added the other T5 fixture. Now I have one fixture coming on from 9-12 (3 hrs) and the other coming on from 11-3 (4hrs). The lights are both on for one hour. I have been EI dosing relgiously (Potasium Nitrate, Mono Potassuim Phosphate every other day and micros+iron opposite the macros)except for this last week when we were in the hospital. I do 3/4 tsp of KNO3, 1/8 tsp of MKP, 3/4 cap of flourish, and 3/4 cap of Seachem iron. I do water changes of at least 50% every Sunday and havent missed one yet. Livestock is 7 medium size rainbows, two grown bn, four otos, and four cories. The plants I keep are many. I am terrible with the names but I can tell you a few. Got some C. Wendii, L. aromatica, sunset hygro, some kind of rotala, red tiger lotus, christmas moss, anubia nana, a giant sword, some plant I bought as vals but ended up growing like micro sword (carpeting and not getting over 2" tall), and a couple of others you may be able to id from the pictures.

Now that you know what I work with maybe somebody can tell me why I have algae taking over. I got the BBA, the hair algae, and no telling what else. I keep the tank at room temp. I dont have a test kit or strips to give ya'll the paramiters. I have tried the peroxide trip with no results. I turned the pumps off and sprayed them down with it. The algae bubbled a bunch but nothing after that. I did my normal water change after about an hour. What am I doing wrong? Any suggestions? I feel like I have done everything right. Am I just cursed with the algae plague? Heres a few pictures. It seems to grow better on the plants that are in the flow of the water. Please help!


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Too much light. Way too much. I run a 55 gallon with no pressurized CO2, Excel only, with 1 bulb on T5HO lighting. I dose full EI plus daily DTPA iron. I can grow most anything, just slower, and with no algae other than some BGA under the substrate on the front glass where I have some low foreground plants.

My suggestion right off the bat is drop down to one bulb of T5HO and dose a capful of Excel daily, and 5 capfuls on water change day. That will drive out the BBA pretty quickly. The other algae will need to be removed manually as much as you can, then wait for the plants to adjust to the lower lighting and out compete the algae.

I would also suggest some nutrient hogs, like hygrophila difformis, be thrown in the tank, also. Maybe some hornwort. Both good floating plants. You have a decent plant mass but when algae begins, it's best to throw numbers at it. More plants is the best solution. Throw the h difformis in to float, this will help cut down the lighting somewhat, which at this point is your worst enemy. Algae doesn't need the fertz to thrive, it needs all that light which is putting your plants into high stress. Algae loves this situation. Plants begin to stress, the photosynthetic rate is more than they can keep up with. Algae is triggered to begin growing.

Throw in more plants, drop down the lights, try some Excel until the BBA is gone. This should help stabilize things. Keep up the EI and wait. Might want to also add an algae crew, say a single SAE (one is enough for a 55), a few ottos, a few snails, some amano shrimp or RCS.

I live in Euless if you'd like to stop in sometime and see my 55 gallon. I'd be happy to show you my routine and how effective low light can be.

Here are some photos of plants under EI with a single bulb of T5HO, no pressurized CO2:


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

yep just 54x4 t5 ho will give you high light. 54x4 is over kill.
more light= more c02=more fertz. josh uses only one 54 t5 ho bulb and has a super nice tank... I also recommend excel, and getting read of the extra light fixture. even one bulb will be enough.

also your plants don't need a break. keep a steady on off and not on off on off on. 8-12 hours in plenty of light.


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## Roll_Tide#1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Wow nice tank. Thats great that your are getting those results with moderate light. I am suprised to here that you can dose so much with the lighting and just excel for a Co2 source. Im feeling pretty crappy about buying another fixture. Oh well...that will leave me with more options if I decide to go salt or something.

I am confused by ya'lls comments. I understand what yall are saying but I dont want to be restricted on what I can grow because of light. From what I read (I know internet material is mostly opinion) lighting is the most important part of keeping and growing aquatic plants. I have seen several tanks with 3+ watts per gallon. Tex Gals new light fixture has four T5s and two 150w MH for example. That is crazy light for that size of tank and she keeps the algae under control growing what ever she wants. That is the frustrating part about it. I am wanting to use all the lighting available to me and have a fast growing high octane jungle of a tank. Is there a way to use both fixtures, have better growth, and no algae problems. I am keeping my CO2 at 30+ppm. My fish show no obvious stress. Is it a matter of dialing in the ferts to keep up with the rate of photosynthesis? I thought algae doesnt like co2 rich water. Am I wrong? Do I need to keep pushing the CO2 level up with increasing the ferts? Somebody posted about getting nitrate hogs in there to help control things. Isnt doseing KNO3 putting nitrates in the water? Couldnt I just cut back on the KNO3 or lighten up the bio load (livestock)? I have a solid bunch of sunset hygro. Those are fast growing nitrate hogs right? Am I that lost about this whole thing? I know I cant scape worth a damn and I know I dont know nothing about what I am doing, relative to everybody here. So do I just need to forget everything I think I know and buy a book or what? I have had patients with this algae problem and have tried several things like cut back on lighting and feeding, and have increased my CO2 to borderline uncomfortable levels, added a powerhead to increase water circulation, used peroxide in a seringe and sprayed it directly on the trouble spots with no water flow in the tank. I keep adding plants because I have to pull some out becasue they are covered in BBA. Tonight I gutted the left side and added some new plants. It looks like crap now and am waiting for the algae to start on them. I feel like if I cut back on the lighting in intensity then the plant growth will slow and the algae will have a field day. 

I did a water change of 50% and removed the majority of the infected plants. I bought a couple of tiger snails, was told they will eat most algae (hey, Im desprite). Removed one fixture and put both 6700k bulbs in and will run them for 6 hrs for a week (2 wpg) with a yellow drop checker. Will start my dosing tomorrow with 3/4 tsp of KNO3 and 1/8 tsp of MKP. :help:

I might take you up on your offer Ekrindal.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

reading tom barr's site helped me. barrreport.com


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Why algae grows in our tanks, no one really knows for sure what the triggers all are. There are so many types of algae, and not alot of study of them until recently with alternative fuel research. Ammonium seems to be a reliable trigger, and plants will release ammonia when they begin to stress and starve. Too much light with limited nutrients will cause such a situation. The plants are pushed into a photosynthetic rate based upon the amount of light they receive, and if the nutrients don't remain non-limited, the plants will begin to suffer a deficiency based upon whichever nutrient is not at the necessary level. (Look up Liebig's Law if you want to understand how this works). So, the more light you provide, the higher the photosynthetic rate will be, and the higher the nutrient demand will be.

I suggested the fast growing plants be thrown in as floaters to help with nutrient uptake in general and to provide some overcast since algae is *already present and established.* KNO3 will not cause algae in and of itself, and neither will any of the other macros or micros we introduce into our tanks. This is an old myth that refuses to die despite the fact that many have shown it is completely false. Algae can grow in a puddle on the concrete. It doesn't need fertilizer to thrive, just light and a source of ammonia. Once it begins to grow, it will take advantage of the nutrients present, but algae control via limiting nutrients is always a bad idea. It will only stress the plants and keep the algae cycle going. This is why you always want the plants to have the advantage when it comes to uptake, especially once algae beings to grow beyond the spore state and is able to take advantage of other nutrients besides ammonia.

This is important to keep in mind. Algae won't leave the spore state due to high levels of KNO3, or KH2PO4, or Fe, or phosphate or any of the other nutrients we commonly dose into our tanks. It needs ammonia. Once in the flagellate state, it can use these other nutrients to fuel it's growth, but our goal is to keep it from ever reaching that point.

Let me explain it this way: When you begin a tank, you want to start with as many plants as possible to control ammonia, as this is what awakens algae from the spore state. Plants take up ammonia very easily, so if you have a heavily plant load, and lots of gluttonous stem plants, you will do well and keep algae at a disadvantage. There won't be enough ammonia for algae to begin growing. Once the tank is cycled, you have some room to lighten the plant load, or introduce plants with lower uptake capabilities, simply because ammonia doesn't persist in the tank long enough to be of use to algae. It is either converted rapidly by the beneficial bacteria, or it is eaten by the plants. So once you are cycled, plant health becomes the new goal, as plants in bad health release ammonia. So, the goal is always the same, to control ammonia so that algae is forced to remain in the spore state, however, I think most of us don't see the overall process of maintaining the tank as a two step process. First, control the ammonia levels until the tank cycles (lots of plants help with this), then control plant health (non-limited nutrients including carbon help here).

High light can work, if you keep nutrients non-limited, including carbon. But, it is like driving as fast as you can as opposed to driving at a moderate speed. The faster you go, the less room for error you leave yourself and the less time you have to adjust to problems. And the faster you go, the more fuel you burn. The same is true for a high light vs a low light tank. A high light environment is also more conducive to algae, as most types of algae are more light sensitive than plants are. As algae is a very simple organism compared to a plant, it is logical that algae lacks the ability to adjust to the environment. So, being a simple organism, it cannot adapt to low light as easily as plants can. (Some cynobacteria prefers low light, but these organisms generally don't persist in a tank for more than a few weeks and are of less concern). Plants can adjust their chemistry to utilize different methods of uptake when conditions change. Algae doesn't seem to be able to do this. If it could, we'd all have algae, all the time.

The fact that plants do adjust to their environment so well means that you can grow plants under various conditions, it will just require more patience with some plants. As an example, one member of DFWAPC, Crownman, grows Rotala Macrandra in tanks with no carbon enrichment and a light amount of fert dosing under T5 lighting (not HO even). He also grows Blyxa Japonica under these conditions. If you go read up on these plants at the various plant sites, you will see that these sites tell you he shouldn't be able to do this.

The reason he can is the plants adjust their chemistry to take advantage of what is provided to them. I also grow Blyxa in one of my tanks with T5HO lighting with much more fertilization and Excel as a carbon enrichment. My blyxa however doesn't grow as full as Crownman's does, and mine looks more anemic than his. I know the problem isn't a fert decifiency due to full EI dosing, so the problem is either too much light or not enough carbon, or more correctly, a little of both. My plant is sitting just on the wrong side of a threshold. If I were to lower my light to T5, my blyxa should take off. If I increased my light more, it would probably fail completely unless I moved to non-limiting CO2.

High light is fine if your goal is fast growth and you don't mind the extra pruning involved. You will have to ensure you get the nutrients levels to a point that the plants are healthy overall and this includes CO2 especially. There is always the risk of killing fish with pressurized CO2, so be sure to study up on CO2 usage more than anything else.

As far as the photoperiod, there's no reason to use such a short photoperiod. Light intensity is what drives photosynthesis. Anything from 8 to 12 hours is fine. Different plants shutdown photosynthesis at different intervals, but unless you move into the extremes, it's not something to stress over. That's not to say it's a good idea to leave very high lighting going for 12 hours (expensive, and with high light, probably stressful to fish if left on too long), but it's the intensity not the period that's the problem.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I have a simpler method of preventing the filamentous types of algae such as Cladophora, Rhizoclonium , Oedogonium, black beard, staghorn and Spirogyra. I use the bleach method where I treat all new plants with 5% bleach for two to three minutes before they go in my tank. I have kept these types out for the last 20 years except for an outbreak of Rhizoclonium that came from my rainwater collection system. 

Other types, such as green water, green spot, green dust, and bluegreen (cyanobacteria) are much more difficult to keep out, but they can be managed more easily than the filamentous types of green algae and red algae.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

Don't feel bad about buying a second light. Think of it this way, you have the light ready to setup on your next tank.


--Robert


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## Roll_Tide#1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Well, its been almost a week. I have removed one light fixture. My fixtures are the Hagen Glo double light fixtures and if anybody has one you know that you can't just run one bulb. I have gone with 6700k bulbs one 54w and one 28w. The light output doesnt seem any different with the 28w vs. the 54w. Guess its overdrivin or just doesnt make a difference with a 54w source. 

Anyways thing have settled down and the algae has definitly slowed. I also get to enjoy my tank for a little longer becasue I went back to 8 hour photo period. Plants seem uneffected by less light and the tank is a little more pleasant to look at. It doesnt blind you with green. I dont really want any floaters in because when I trimmed last week, all the little ones I replanted, are my floaters. Just wanted to update and send out a BIG THANK You to everyone who responded. I am trying to retrain myself to be more moderate than all out. I want a big beautiful jungle of healthy plants but I know even more now that patients and moderation is the key.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and feel free to let me know of anything Im missing that has already been posted. Sometimes its brain overload.

Daniel


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Glad to hear things have begun to stabilize. Light is the ignition switch of the aquarium, so always start there and work backwards. Your dosing routine is right were you want to be for a tank that size, so just watch the plants and focus on CO2 as that will be the most likely limiting factor if the plants start looking bad. I think 2 bulbs will be fine since you are using pressurized CO2.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Just got back and saw your thread. Wanted to say that I do NOT run all my lights. I seldom turn on the metal halide lights, never for more than minutes. My lights are also 5" above the water line. I also have many many nutrient hogging plants in my tank. My lights are in 8.5 hours per day. I have to adjust the amount of nutrients I put in my tank as my plant mass increases, or decreases. I have my CO2 just poring in my tank AND I have 1900gph of water rated water movement in my tank. What that means is that my CO2 is reaching every inch of my tank - no dead areas. All these things help to keep algae at bay. I feed my fish about 3 times per week so I don't have a heavy build up of fish wastes. I make sure I am faithful with water changes. IF I miss any of these I will get algae FAST. I had a few things short out in my absence and I have BBA starts in my tank. I will now work on getting things balanced again and get in eradicated. 

High tech, high light tanks can go south VERY fast. It's best to work up slowly to learn how to balance things at a much slower level first, increasing things as you go. 

Glad you have things settling down.


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## Roll_Tide#1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Yes, Tex Gal, things to get out of hand fast. I always learn best by messing up first. I know you have told be about my high lighting and have help me a lot. I had thing running pretty good with little algae growth so I thought hey heres a good deal on a light and threw it on there. Wow. Didnt take long even with a shortened lighting period. 

Got a lot more plants this weekend and am removing the driftwood (I think) to cram them in. I have them floating now to help shade things. Its helping. I am seeing the spots on the driftwood get small and fewer. I am working on my tank and my patients with plants. Its hard. Why cant we just throw some in and presto....show class planted tank. Guess that is why I got tired of holey rock and cichilds. No challenge.

By the way, Tex Gal, I wasnt saying that you run all 500 or so watts at the same time. I remember everytime Ive been over they have been off and you have shared your great knowlege with me to avoid what I did. I just didnt listen or be patient with my situation. I was just saying that I have heard of people running very high light. I can see now that everything has to be proportiant meaning ferts, water flow, co2, lighting, and water changes to plant mass. Oh and there are a lot of common myths about planted tanks out there that can make lots of problems. I owe you everything Tex Gal. Your a great person and I still have your bucket. Bringing it over soon.:biggrin:


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You don't owe me a thing. Just wanted to clear up any misconceptions I may have left you with. I certainly know what's it's like to be impatient. I killed an entire shrimp tank once trying to clear up algae with peroxide because I didn't want to do it patiently. Don't worry about the bucket. I still have them sitting all over in my garage!


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