# Is PH of 7.6 too high for tetras and rainbows?



## RalphM

I'm about to set up my first fish tank. I want to make it a NPT. My tap water has a PH of 7.6. The LFS says I should use Neutral Regulator to bring it down toward neutral. Some sites say tetras and rainbows should not have water above 7.5. I don't want to "mess" with the PH unless I must. So, can you tell me if I should use the Neutral Regulator or is 7.6 okay? Thanks in advance for any help.

Ralph Murphy


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## DonaldmBoyer

No, you are fine. Your water pH will fall slightly anyways after it has been in the tank for a while. Just keep the water "clean" and you will be fine.


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## king oz

RalphM said:


> I'm about to set up my first fish tank. I want to make it a NPT. My tap water has a PH of 7.6. The LFS says I should use Neutral Regulator to bring it down toward neutral. Some sites say tetras and rainbows should not have water above 7.5. I don't want to "mess" with the PH unless I must. So, can you tell me if I should use the Neutral Regulator or is 7.6 okay? Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Ralph Murphy


that 7.0 stuff is crap, they tell you that to make money selling you a product you don't need, the rainbows will love your tap and the tetras will adjust. just because that stuff drops your ph doesn't actually make your water softer, if you desire a softer water tank use ro there's a difference between ph, gh and kh, do a lil searching and read up. but don't waste money on ph adjusters you will just have ph swings when you change water and that's harder on fish than them just getting use to the water you already have, hope i helped a lil with my mumbling and running on.


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## DonaldmBoyer

To add, since this is an El Natural, you want to stay away from as many chemicals and additives as possible. It is likely that the LFS has nearly the same water as you do anyways. If the tetras are already used to their water parameters, than you should have no issues whatsoever. Just because tetras have adapted to live in low pH's doesn't mean that they need to. Close to neutral pH is fine.

And as Oz said above, it would be more deleterious to keep adding pH adjusters any time you did water changes. But again, El Natural systems (eventually) should not need water changes, relying mostly on "top-offs" after a few months.


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## Diana K

Don't chase pH.
Check GH and KH. If you need to adjust either, then let the pH fall where it may. 

"acidic water fish" are not really. 
They generally come from water with low GH. 

There are some fish that will accumulate too much calcium in their system if they are kept in water with too high GH. In this case I would start with a blend of RO +Tap to better create optimum conditions for them. 

For most hatchery raised fish this is not necessary.


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## RalphM

Thanks Donald, Oz and Diana. I feel safer now going against the LFS advice. Ralph


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## Diana K

LFS advise = Spend more money.


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## drtechno

for rainbows, no

if you are going to breed neons - yes it is high

your plants will adjust water chemistry accordinly.

7.0 is an artifical number that is a happy medium for most fish.

rainbows don't like under 7.0 ph

neons like 5.5-6.8

but if your neons don't kill off because of it, they have adjusted, leave 'em alone

if you truly want a low ph enviroment for neons, you must set up a tank with an acidic soil
substrate.

then drip acclimate them into that enviroment.

just remember, the plants and fish make up an ecosystem you are trying to create. after a couple of weeks of setting up the planted tank (plants only no fish yet ) look at the water chemistry as the tank as a whole will dictate what fish will work in that tank.


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## bartoli

I believe water pH is very important for fish health. See:

http://books.google.com/books?as_epq=internal+ph&as_vt=The+physiology+of+fishes

As for the pH level for cardinal tetras, I found the following interesting:

"Cardinal tetras (Paracheirodon axelrodi) live in very acidic waters. In a 1992 study of a 720 square mile area surrounding the confluence of the Rio ***** and Rio Demini, Dr. Ning Chao of the Universitade do Amazonas established that the pH of all tested waters within the study area fell between 3.4 and 5.5 [TFH, January 1993]. Baensch/Riehl suggest an optimum pH of 5.8 for cardinals with variances tolerated between 4.6 and 6.2. When cardinal tetras and similar fish are maintained in harder water, they can succumb to internal problems like blockages of the kidney tubulii by calcium salts."

The above was from the discussion at:

http://www.fish-keeper.net/Forum/lofiversion/index.php?t13437.html


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## TAB

you would be amazed at what fish can actually handle. Having worked for both a LFS and a Fish breeder, unless your trying to breed them, the water normally comes strait from the tap.( or water storage tank where its decloranated.)


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## bartoli

But why put a fish through the suffering?


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## TAB

what makes you think they are suffering?

For the most part, most of the fish we see in the hobby are raised, not wild cuaght, 99% of those have never been in anything other then tap water. Drastic PH changes are what is cruel.


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## bartoli

TAB said:


> what makes you think they are suffering?


Acidosis and alkalosis destroy tissues as well as irritate gills and skin.

As to the idea that the actual level of stable pH does not matter much to raised fish, is there any scientific study with physiological evidence?


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## TAB

I'm sure there is some where, fact is thousands of generations of fish have been raised that way. I would go as far to say its cruel to subject these fish to conditions of thier home waters. Thats not what they are use too. Having worked in the industry( on both the aqua culture and retail side of things) Just about every thing is raised in tap water. On average, its just treated for chlorine, Carbon filters are also common. Anything else is the exception, not the rule. Now some parts of the country have really nasty water, but generally speaking, you don't see large scale aquaculture companys in those areas. 


For 90% of the fish we see in the hobby, it just does not matter.


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## bartoli

TAB said:


> I'm sure there is some where,


Since you are so sure, please tell us one such scientific study. Many breeders would love to see that for it would be a great marketing tool helping them to sell their livestock to a much broader market. A lot of money to be made.

But the fact is... we have a wealth of scientific knowledge on how improper pH level damages fish. Even though many people (including I myself) wish that raised fish would be the exception, there is no scientific evidence to support that wish.

To be compassionate to fishes, I stay away from those that I cannot provide the appropriate pH.


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## TAB

So I guess, the 10s of million of fish that are bread, raised and thrive in improper PH in this country is just luck?

lets just take guppies as a example, strike that, lets take Poecilia reticulata. You can in the matter of a month, take them from a PH of 6.0 in very soft fresh water and water temps in the low 60s to a ph of 8.4, sg of salt water of 1.025 and temp of 84, Yet they still will reproduce and have no noticable loss of life span. I've done it, I know several other people that have done it.


I know angel breaders not Far from my house that ship thousands of fish a month world wide, and do it all in 7.5 ph water. BTW they also do killies and several other new world cichlid, all of which are recomended in PH lower then 7. Not only do they do it, that promote it on thier website...They are not the only one. I know more then a few discus breaders that only mess with pH when it comes to breading.

Just becuase you don't like the idea or agree with it, does not mean that it is done world wide in the tropical fish industry.

I tell you what, go around to all your local fish stores, ask them what they do to thier water before they do water changes.


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## bartoli

On the one hand, we have scientific knowledge saying that water pH above or below that of the native fish environment damages fishes.

On the other hand, we have breeders claiming that their fishes are not sensitive to water pH as long as it is stable.

It is also widely acknowledged that many breeders use medication to improve the survival rate of their livestock. Could it be that those medication improve survival rate by suppressing or damping down the physiological response to improper water pH?

As long as fishes are continually being medicated, I guess they can live well with tap water pH. In that case, breeders should attach medication along with fish delivery, not to mention the ethics of continually medicating fish.


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## TAB

There are two kinds of knowlegde, learned and earned.


My EXP has always been the earned kind is always better.

Breeders do all kinds of strange things, Every thing from feeding apples to using voodoo dolls. 

Most breeders feed live foods atleast daily, many its all they feed. It really has a drastic effect on the health of fish. I know from exp that fry from the same hatch if split into 2 groups, one getting all live and the other manufactorerd, the ones getting live will be market sized in a 1/3 less time then those feed prepared foods. 

Many fish are more sensitive hardness, then they are PH. most NW cichlids fall into this catagory.


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## Forgotten Path

> As long as fishes are continually being medicated, I guess they can live well with tap water pH. In that case, breeders should attach medication along with fish delivery, not to mention the ethics of continually medicating fish.


I've never seen fish medication that would do anything for "blockages of the kidney tubulii by calcium salts"...

I've also never heard of a LFS that medicates their fish when not needed. It seems that constant medication would stress the fish more than a tap water pH. Also, let's not forget that thousands of generations of fish provides plenty of time for evolutionary changes... those fish more able to cope with wider pH ranges have a higher chance of surviving, and therefore reproducing. Even if the ones with low tolerance for wide pH ranges didn't die, overall health of the fish would be lower, which would affect its ability to breed. It makes sense to assume that some evolutionary changes would take place that would allow aquarium fish to tolerate much higher pH ranges.

How about this: Obtain a wild cought cardinal tetra. Go to the LFS and purchase a bred one. Drip acclimate them both to a pH of 7.6. I'm willing to bet the one from the LFS would live a longer, healthier life...


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## TAB

most LFS do parasite control. ( atleast the ones I've been to, that I would buy fish from) That generally means copper or UV.


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## drtechno

bartoli said:


> On the other hand, we have breeders claiming that their fishes are not sensitive to water pH as long as it is stable.


some species are more adaptable than others.

like for example: guppies can be acclimated to salt water conditions and they successfully breed offspring that is capable of living in those conditions (most live bearers can do this) and some people do this for feeders.


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## Forgotten Path

> most LFS do parasite control. ( atleast the ones I've been to, that I would buy fish from) That generally means copper or UV.


I work at PetSmart* and we use UV sterilizers, but that is not a medicine so much as a preventative measure. We also use quICH Cure whenever we receive a shipment, but nothing other than that... Even with just one treatment of the quICH Cure we normally lose our Clown Loaches and Black Ghost Knifefish. There is copper in our system, but we're actually working hard right now to eliminate it, as we are having to keep our snails in breeding nets in our plant tank, and our ghost shrimp always die...

*Not sure you would consider PetSmart a good place to buy fish, LOL.


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## TAB

Much liket petco, I really don't think is thier systems, I think is thier suppliers and staff/lack there of. Having worked in the industry, the quality of the fish they have coming in sucks. Atleast compared to every thing I've seen working in the industry. I've seen fish come strait from the importers that are in way better shape then those that come from thier wholesalers.


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## Forgotten Path

Not saying the stock is the best. There is a lot more fish loss than there should be, however we had our water tested and the results showed copper...
As for the Clown Loaches, etc., I think the corporate office doesn't bother to figure out a safe dose of the quICH Cure for sensitive fish... I guess its low enough for the tetras, since they don't die. But it kind of makes you wonder why they even bother to have us carry Clown Loaches if they're just going to die because of something corporate makes us do...
I will agree with you on the breeding stock, though, as we have a few different species of fish that like to die very often for no apparent reason... :tape2:
Honestly I haven't bought fish from work in a while, even though I get a discount.


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## TAB

The only way you would get copper into a system like petsmarts is if it was introduced. Rahter it was on puprose, or by dumping in the water from the shipments. I breifly worked for a petco in College( about 6 weeks) After I completely redid every single tank, moved fish, re plumbing thier system to make it so water changes could be done in less then a hour for the entire FW system. I think you get the idea... A corpate, offical came thru and ordered me( using lots of 4 letter words ) to put it all back the way it was. The fact that I was saving them thousands in labor and losses every year ment nothing. I told him where to stick the job. 

It should also be noted I was hired by a diffrent company, that got bought out by petco right as I was getting started doing all this.

Most "bad things" come from the water, not the fish...


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## Forgotten Path

:frusty:

Yeah, I know what you mean.


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## dwalstad

Forgotten Path said:


> I work at PetSmart* and we use UV sterilizers, but that is not a medicine so much as a preventative measure. We also use quICH Cure whenever we receive a shipment, but nothing other than that... Even with just one treatment of the quICH Cure we normally lose our Clown Loaches and Black Ghost Knifefish. There is copper in our system, but we're actually working hard right now to eliminate it, as we are having to keep our snails in breeding nets in our plant tank, and our ghost shrimp always die...
> 
> *Not sure you would consider PetSmart a good place to buy fish, LOL.


I would suggest that you add an aquarium water conditioner designed to counteract heavy metals (active ingredient is the powerful metal-chelator EDTA) to tanks with invertebrates and copper-sensitive fish. BTW, I wrote all about metal toxicity and how to counteract it in my book (pp 9-19).

I use Tetra's AquaSafe. Its a "simple solution". There's no excuse for any fish or invertebrate to die of copper toxicity.

As to PetSmart... The fact that PetSmart uses a UV sterilizer speaks volumes. This company is at least making an effort to manage fish disease. In contrast, I've seen several local aquarium stores with dead fish rotting in their tanks, but not at our local PetSmart.

Hope this helps!


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## Forgotten Path

Yeah, we've been dosing with our TopFin brand water conditioner, which is supposed to eliminate heavy metals. I'll check the label to see if it contains EDTA. Or find the MSDS if it doesn't say anywhere. We have one big system, so we unfortunately have to dose for the whole thing. I'm glad that PetSmart is doing its part to reduce disease... I thought UV sterilizers were pretty much industry standard until I went into Petco today.... They use the small Marineland units that have 6 or 8 tanks apiece - definitely no UV.


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## TAB

its actually better to have a few tanks connected, with out a UV, then dozens connected with a UV. Not all the water goes thru the UV, if it does it does not have the dwell time to kill every thing that is needed. You need atleast 5 seconds of dwell time to kill off 90% of the bugs in the water. Unless you have several of them your not getting that dwell time.(is why you see stores that have 8-12 of them plumbed inline) 1-3 seconds will kill plants, but not animals.


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## Forgotten Path

> Not all the water goes thru the UV, if it does it does not have the dwell time to kill every thing that is needed.


Actually, in our system, water from the sump takes 1 of 3 paths...
1. From the sump to the carbon vessel, through the O2 reactor, and back into the sump
2. From the sump to the fluidized bed, and back into the sump
3. From the sump, through the UV sterilizers, and then on to the tanks
So all the water going to the tanks and to the fish must pass through the UV sterilizers.



> Unless you have several of them your not getting that dwell time.(is why you see stores that have 8-12 of them plumbed inline)


We have 16, each about a yard long.


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## bartoli

Forgotten Path said:


> Also, let's not forget that thousands of generations of fish provides plenty of time for evolutionary changes... those fish more able to cope with wider pH ranges have a higher chance of surviving, and therefore reproducing. Even if the ones with low tolerance for wide pH ranges didn't die, overall health of the fish would be lower, which would affect its ability to breed. It makes sense to assume that some evolutionary changes would take place that would allow aquarium fish to tolerate much higher pH ranges.


Living things do evolve. But the process is extremely slow. It has its own very complicated mechanism in deciding which aspects of life to keep and which to change.

This thread was started by someone trying to ensure that a good environment, in this case water pH, can indeed be provided to the fishes in mind. We are dealing with the welfare of some living beings whose existence enhances our quality of living. Therefore, when it comes to setting up the environments for those living beings, it is only fair for us to be very cautious and be guided by the scientific knowledge of how fishes respond to water pH.


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## Forgotten Path

> Living things do evolve. But the process is extremely slow. It has its own very complicated mechanism in deciding which aspects of life to keep and which to change.


I realize how long evolution can take, my major was environmental science before I switched it to conservation of natural resources (which includes fish!). I fully believe that evolutionary changes have taken place in the species most kept in aquaria, given their reproduction rate, number of offspring, and the fact that more offspring can survive to adulthood (due to lack of predator, etc.).



> We are dealing with the welfare of some living beings whose existence enhances our quality of living. Therefore, when it comes to setting up the environments for those living beings, it is only fair for us to be very cautious and be guided by the scientific knowledge of how fishes respond to water pH.


This is very true and well put. I never claimed that fish should be put in a strange pH just because they can live in it... There is no excuse for that, given how easily pH is adjusted and how easy it is to choose fish that will like your local water pH. I am actually adjusting the pH of my goldfish aquarium to 7.2 now, and my tank with Emperor Tetras sits around 6.5 (which is the pH of my tap water a few days after it hits the tank, one reason I enjoy keeping Tetras)... I was just trying to argue my opinion that bred fish will have a higher pH tolerance than wild caught specimens.


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## dwalstad

Forgotten Path said:


> So all the water going to the tanks and to the fish must pass through the UV sterilizers.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that UV light oxidizes (detroys) organic compounds and chelators like EDTA (see "Photo-reduction of Fe" in my book, p 168 ). The chelators in aquarium water conditioners are what bind the heavy metals to keep them from harming the fish. [In NPTs, accumulated organic matter and DOC (dissolved organic carbon) act as natural metal chelators so that metal toxicity isn't that big a problem.]
> 
> I suspect that the UV sterilizers that PetSmart uses are very powerful and may gradually break down chelators in any water conditioner. Also, I bet that PetSmart tries to keep their tanks very clean and devoid of organic matter. Thus, the water doesn't have much DOC to protect the fish. If the incoming water contains copper, sensitive species are going to have problems.
> 
> You could try another water conditioner or dose a little more frequently and/or directly to tanks with invertebrates and sensitive fish. Apparently, PetSmart's system-wide dosing of water conditioner is not quite enough in this situation.


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## Forgotten Path

I was reading about that yesterday, but the UV destroying the chelators didn't occur to me. I'll let management know and see what they say (haha, this will be interesting). Does anyone know if you could put a chelator like EDTA in the same solution as sodium thiosulfate? We have an automatic dosing chamber to rid us of chlorine as new water comes into the system... It pretty much runs 24/7 so putting the water conditioner in there seems like an easy solution. Hmmm. Work tomorrow will be interesting trying to convince the managers on all of this...

Thanks for all your help, Ms. Walstad.


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## dwalstad

Forgotten Path said:


> I was reading about that yesterday, but the UV destroying the chelators didn't occur to me. I'll let management know and see what they say (haha, this will be interesting). Does anyone know if you could put a chelator like EDTA in the same solution as sodium thiosulfate? We have an automatic dosing chamber to rid us of chlorine as new water comes into the system... It pretty much runs 24/7 so putting the water conditioner in there seems like an easy solution. Hmmm. Work tomorrow will be interesting trying to convince the managers on all of this...
> 
> Thanks for all your help, Ms. Walstad.


You are welcome. I have moved your question into a new folder on metal toxicity. Thus, this important discussion will get properly archived.


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## WhiteDevil

My Ph is at 8.2 I tried to neutral regulate it and lost an angel to the ph crash. I let it be and everything is growing better and bigger at the higher Ph level.

I have tetras in it, had more tetras got breeding guppies in it, betta, cories, kuhlis and angels. even some of my new plants have already started some growth. Forget what the books say, cycle your tank like you would, if everything reads fine and the Ph is high, go with it, the fish will be perfectly fine.


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