# General Fertilizing Questions



## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

Currently I have had some general issues with slow growth and unhealthy plants in my 20 gallon long tank. It is high light (slightly over 3.2 wpg of CF) and it has a two liter bottle of diy co2 at between 20 and 30 ppm (hard to get a good reading from my tank). I have eco-complete gravel and black Tahitian Moon Sand. I am currently using the E.I. method with a 50% water change every week. I add ferts as followed:

Every Other Day:

1/4 tsp KNO3 
1/4 tsp K2SO4
2 ml of phosphate solution (adds 1 ppm P for every mL of solution)
3 ml of Flourish

Total Amount (Fertilator):
11 ppm N
2 ppm P
16 ppm K

I don't really have many other problems other than slow growth and unhealthy plants. I really haven't had much algae issues (a little algae on the glass and a tiny bit of hair algae here and there), but the unhealthy plants are really bugging me. If anyone has any suggestions I would be very happy to here them.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Something sounds a bit weird. I dose that much KNO3 on a tank double that size. I assume you have a 65watt PC over your 20....that isnt as much as you think, however it should be plenty to grow healthy plants. Do you have some test kits to offer you other tested parms? Are the plants that are doing bad, high light plants?
jB


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> I assume you have a 65watt PC over your 20....that isnt as much as you think, however it should be plenty to grow healthy plants.


I should have mentioned that its is ahsupply.com 's 55 watt bright kit and the 13 watt kit. The 13 watt kit is on the far left and the 55 is over the rest. Most of the plants with problems are on the side with the 55 watt. Both bulbs are 6700K. I have it setup so the light is pretty well spread out and its a 20 gallon long tank (only 12 inches tall) so it seems fine in terms of light penatration. Another question though, how long do compact flourescent bulbs last? I just realized I've had my tank for about a year now, so I may need to replace them soon.



> Are the plants that are doing bad, high light plants?


Some are, some aren't. For instance, Ludwigia repens, which is a medium light plant, doesn't grow well as well as 'Windeløv' java ferns, but Pogostemon stellatus and glosso aren't doing well either. Then there are some high light plants that are doing perfectly fine.



> Do you have some test kits to offer you other tested parms?


Yes and no. I have a few test kits, but they are hard to read and I'm slightly colorblind, so that doesn't help either ](*,) . I will try to get as many readings as I can tonight, but I don't always trust my results.


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

I have 2x55w and 2x96w AHS lights on my 100gallon. The two 96w went out after 2 years, the two 55w still going after 2.5years. I heard some bulbs lasted 5 years. Most people use PC bulbs till they burn out.


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

> Most people use PC bulbs till they burn out.


Thats what I wasn't sure about. I didn't know whether they lost power after a certain amount of time like regular flourescents or not. Thanks for clearing that part up.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Well, you certainly aren't underdosing!  How's your fish load? According to what you say, you're adding somewhere around 33ppm NO3, and 6ppm PO4 weekly. Assuming your livestock doesn't contribute anything, which it probably does, that's a lot. If it were me, I'd cut down on the dosing to, at most, twice a week, and invest in some test kits to see what you actually have in there. I also wouldn't dose the K2SO4 more than once a week. I think you'd be surprised. 

Good luck.


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

> Well, you certainly aren't underdosing! How's your fish load? According to what you say, you're adding somewhere around 33ppm NO3, and 6ppm PO4 weekly. Assuming your livestock doesn't contribute anything, which it probably does, that's a lot. If it were me, I'd cut down on the dosing to, at most, twice a week, and invest in some test kits to see what you actually have in there. I also wouldn't dose the K2SO4 more than once a week. I think you'd be surprised.


I only have five Harlequin Rasboras and an Apistogramma Cacatuoides right now, so that can't add too much. Its probally a stupid question, but about how much N, P, and K are used up daily? I'll try cutting the dosing to twice a week and see how it goes. Hopefully tomarrow I will get a chance to sit down and do some testing. Thanks for the help.


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## gregwatson (May 24, 2004)

Fosty said:


> 3 ml of Flourish
> 
> I don't really have many other problems other than slow growth and unhealthy plants. I really haven't had much algae issues (a little algae on the glass and a tiny bit of hair algae here and there), but the unhealthy plants are really bugging me. If anyone has any suggestions I would be very happy to here them.


You're fine on your KNO3 ... I would suggest you almost double your micro nutrients (Flourish) though ...

Greg


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

> You're fine on your KNO3 ... I would suggest you almost double your micro nutrients (Flourish) though ...
> 
> Greg


I'll try that. Right now the 3ml I use is about three times the amount that they say to use on the bottle, and the bottle is the only reference I have (Fertilator aparently doesn't have anything for Flourish anymore, I guess everyone else switched to Flouish Iron). I had used up my last batch of CSM+B a few weeks ago and switched back to Flourish just to use my last bottle up. The one thing I forgot was to add MgSO4. I had added that to my CSM+B but when that ran out I forgot about it completely. I'll start to add some MgSO4 when doing water changes and see if that helps too.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

CO2, CO2 and CO2.
We can assume the rest is amply supplied(light and nutrients).

DIY CO2=> general slow growth=> poor CO2.
Change your bottles once a week, consider a different diffusion/er method.

Nutrients:
Add KNO3 3x a week, 1/4 teaspoon
Trace: 5mls
KH2PO4: 1 ml, 3x a week

K2SO4: you do not need it, stop adding it, plenty of K+ from KNO3.

The challenge is CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

3rd annual Plant Fest July 8-14th 2005!
[email protected] Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

I did a lot of testing today (One day after water change and adding ferts) and came up with these results:

Tapwater:
7.5 pH
3.0 kh
5.5 gh

Tank Water:
7.8 - 8.0 pH
12.0 gh
5.0 kh
CO2 under 5 ppm
5.0 ppm NO3

I'm a little confused as to how my pH got so high in my tank. I don't have anything that could have raised it, and I really don't know how the gh got so high. The diy co2 was set-up with a new bottle yesterday, and its not bubbling yet, but some of those numbers are still scarry to me (having an apisto). The pH was tested with two different kits with similar results. The NO3 was tested with a kit that only goes from 0, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80 and so on to 160, so I am really doubting those results. I am now more confused then ever and lost as what to do first.

I am really worried about the high pH and the high gh of the tank with having an Apistogramma cacatuoides and Harlequin Rasboras which both should probally have soft water and ph between 6.5 and 7.0 7.5 at the maximum. The things I have considered trying include:

a) Adding peat to reduce the pH and soften the water.

b) Adding a comercial product such as a pH Buffer or something like Black Water Expert to lower the pH and soften the water.

c) Waiting and hoping the co2 kicks in more and lowers the pH.

d) Doing a lot of water changes to get te pH down.

e) Waiting for someone else to think of better ideas than my first four ;-) .

The problem with a) and b) is that either of those will throw future CO2 readings way off. The problem with d) is that my tap water pH is 7.5 which is still higher than I want my tank to be in the long run. Until I get an outsiders input (oxymoron?), I think I'll just wait and hope for the best.

Meanwhile, I'll try to think of the reasons that my tankwater is more alkaline and harder than my tap water. So far, I've narrowed it down to:

a) Something in the substrate (either the Tahitian Moon Sand or the Eco-Complete).

b) One of the ferts I've added so far (KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4 solution, or Flourish)

Those are the only two I can think of, there are no stones in the tank or anything, just gravel, fish, plants, algae, and driftwood. I'm really lost as to whats happening. Even the tap water ph and gh seem too high. Just last year when I tested, they were both about neutral. Well, at least now I know whats going wrong with my tank. Sadly its way more than I thought at first.
Anyway, thanks for all the help so far.

Devin


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

I think I figured out the cause of the high pH and hardness in my tank. The high evaporation rate has caused it. I have no clue what I was thinking (or more importantly WASN'T thinking) before. But now that I know this I don't really know how to get it down... :-s


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## Happy Camper (Jul 22, 2004)

Fosty said:


> I think I figured out the cause of the high pH and hardness in my tank. The high evaporation rate has caused it. I have no clue what I was thinking (or more importantly WASN'T thinking) before. But now that I know this I don't really know how to get it down... :-s


Hello Fosty

Your tank is almost exactly the same as mine. Dont try and soften your water, this will lead to big problems later on, perhaps one day you forget to 'doctor' your water and the ph swings could possibly stress your fish out. I kept an Agassizi in the same type water as yours for many moons and he was fine. The main keyword here is stability. Don't soften your water with anything but co2. Listen to Mr. Barr, in fact you shoud visit his website and download the info on constructing a decent co2 diffuser, I made one last week and the improvement is absolutely unreal. Try it and see for yourself. 
One more thing, when you say 1/4 tsp No3 exactly how are you measuring this quantity? Are you using a tspoon for tea or coffee or a proper measuring spoon?

Kind Regards
Cameron James


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

> One more thing, when you say 1/4 tsp No3 exactly how are you measuring this quantity? Are you using a tspoon for tea or coffee or a proper measuring spoon?


Measuring with a standard 1/4 tsp measuring spoon. It seems to be plenty accurate.



> Listen to Mr. Barr, in fact you shoud visit his website and download the info on constructing a decent co2 diffuser, I made one last week and the improvement is absolutely unreal. Try it and see for yourself.


I'll look into that. Could you give me a link though, I did a quick search and didn't find anything. Currently I'm using one of the Hagen Bubble Counter/ Ladders things that come with the Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System .



> Your tank is almost exactly the same as mine. Dont try and soften your water, this will lead to big problems later on, perhaps one day you forget to 'doctor' your water and the ph swings could possibly stress your fish out. I kept an Agassizi in the same type water as yours for many moons and he was fine. The main keyword here is stability. Don't soften your water with anything but co2.


I'm going to try getting the tank water at least down to the levels of my tap water. I don't think 8.0 pH is going to be alright for fish that like acidic soft water. Probably 7.5 will be fine for both the plants and the fish. Plus if the co2 gets going good again, it can bring it down even more.

I also figured out my most recent mixture of diy co2 was a complete failure. I think iit probably was a simple mistake of forgetting to dissolve the sugar enough ](*,) and/or having the water a little too warm for the yeast. I have plenty of experience with diy co2, so if its not that, I'll be able to easily figure it out.

Thanks to everyone that helped. I think I got the (many) issues with my tank straightened out.

Devin


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## Happy Camper (Jul 22, 2004)

Fosty said:


> Measuring with a standard 1/4 tsp measuring spoon. It seems to be plenty accurate.
> 
> I'll look into that. Could you give me a link though,


Sure, http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11
This will work 10 times better than your ladder. Good luck.

Kind Regards
Cameron


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Frosty, the pH rose due to the plant's removal of the CO2.
If you rest in the am(right as the lights come on), it will be lower than the evening before they go off.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Frosty, the pH rose due to the plant's removal of the CO2.
> If you rest in the am(right as the lights come on), it will be lower than the evening before they go off.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Normally, I'm sure thats the case, but I don't think it was here because the day I tested was when the diy co2 had not really started up yet. I think the rate was about 1 bubble every two or three minutes that day, so I wouldn't think it would cause that much of a ph change. Maybe it would though. Anyways, I did a few large water changes (50% two days in a row) to get the pH and gh back to the levels in the tap water. I will test tonight and in the morning tomarrow.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes it could if you have high light, no added CO2.

That's what you just said you had.

So yes, the pH will go up, the KH can stay the same and the pH will go up since you remove the CO2(the acid) that maintains the CO2/HCO3 acid base systems, the same one that's in us.

If the plants use the KH, the -HCO3, they will remove the CO2 from that anion and kick out an -OH anion and that will drive the pH up further and remove the buffer.

So that's a double wahmmy.
Add more gas.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

I now have a 10 times better understanding of the chemistry behind adding CO2, but I'm still working on how to add the co2. I finally got the mixture going good yesterday, and my plants were all pearling. My ‘Windeløv’ java ferns and Lagarosiphon madagascariensis were pearling like crazy. Anyway, they did all this with just using the Hagen Ladder, so I'm wondering if I still need a reactor. I probably will go ahead and build one anyways because I already ordered most of the parts. I just need to return the Penguin 660 powerhead for something that won't blow my fish out of the water. I'm thinking of getting the Rio 180 or something similar. I'm going to use a modified version of Tom Barr's Venturi Design Reactor. Hopefully I will finally make a DIY project that isn't a waste of time and money as most of my past projects have been.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

15 minutes and 2-3$ is not much risk

I can assure that they device is well worth it in terms of DIY and folks having CO2 issues.

They sell lesser devices for 50$ with the powerhead on line.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## czado (May 26, 2005)

Adding to the pile: I acheived close to 100% increase in disolved CO2 (20-25ppm to 30-45ppm) when switching from _two_ passive diffusers (Hagen and bell) to one powered diffuser. Mr. Barr's venturi loop design appears more efficent than mine, though I only see occasional bubbles escape now.


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

I finally got the "Viewtainers" to make the Venturi CO2 Reactor, but I could not find a decent pump to work with the venturi design, so I had to alter my plans and go with a reactor design more like the one found HERE. Its probably not quite as good a design, but it will still be much better than my current design. I ordered two "Viewtainers", one is 2" by 4" and the other is 2.75" by 8". Why I got these specific ones, I don't know, but its what I have. Anyway, which one will be better to use on a 20 gallon long? BTW, the pump I'm using is the Pico Pump.

Thanks for All the Help


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## Fosty (Jun 6, 2004)

I got the modified reactor working well today. I tried both tubes, but went with the 2.75 inches by 8 inches tube and just cut it down to 6 inches. Heres a picture of the reactor:










I will also update with the co2 levels tonight (hopefully). I think I finally got this tank on the right track.

Thanks to everyone who helped,
Devin


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## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

*maintaining stability of macronutrients*

This article was posted here by mistake,I'sorry,anyway, have a look

Most of us dose macronutrients in order to keep our plants healthy and this keeps algae at bay.Although most of us have not a clue why this happens and this is a difficult aspect to understand especially for people who don't have a backround on chemistry and biology.The thing we know for sure is that dosing macros is a must.We read about different dosing methods like PPS and EI.All these methods have one thing in common,stable values of po4 and no3 throughout weeks and months so we hypothsise that is this stability for a prolonged period that makes the explosion that destroyes algae growth.I am wondering though how much time this requires to happen and I would like to read some comments on that "stability" we were talking about and why plants react possitive to it.

Thanks...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

A rio 180 pump is ideal for the reactor, cost 8.99-11.99$.


Anafranil-
Even the stability does not matter much.
As long as we do not bottom out the nutrients on the lower end.

The upper ranges before we have issues is extremely high.
See the NO3 dosing experiement I recently did, 120ppm of NO3, no algae, but about 1/2 the shrimp died after a 3 day exposure. No fish died.

PO4, I still have no clue what too high is.
It's way above 5ppm though.

Traces, I've gone extremely high here as well.
GH: Ca levels at 440ppm
Mg: I've gone to 50ppm

Low limits are much easier to find and observe.

As long as you maintain higher levels, non limiting levels on the light, CO2, NO3 etc, you can play at the lower limits with say, PO4.
The difference between say 10ppm and 30ppm of NO3 is not much.

As far as algae, well, some planted tanks do not have enough plants.

Again, do not limit the biomass of a tank. Add lots from the start.
You can phase some out as things settle in.

Also, use less light if you want less work, algae potential, less pruning, easier dosing routines etc.

More light is not better in virtually every case.

Once a tank is doing well, then you can do your test to see if the nutrients mess things up or not.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

At last I'm installing the the co2 dosing computer today which I found as the only way to keep co2 at 30ppm+ for prolonged periods.We will see finally if the co2,co2,co2 approach works,I am very positive on this besause I found out that I was out of my predictions when I bought an elecronic pH meter.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Use an elbow on the reactor you built.
This way it will swirl around and you can remove the bottom and remove that ugly floss.

This will increase efficiency. You can add the venturi loop very easily and burp hole.

See the diagram on my site for a visual.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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