# Sticky  Suitable soils for the Walstad method



## Michael

"In general, aquatic plants seem to do well in a variety of soils-clays or loam soils with some organic matter. Indeed, I haven't been able to find any major or consistent difference in plant growth in various ordinary soils. . . . In most instances, substrate fertilization appeared to be either detrimental or not helpful. Best plant growth (under aquarium conditions) often appears to be not in the most fertile soil, but in the one that is the least toxic." _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, p 132.

So many people ask questions about which soils are suitable for use Walstad aquaria, it seemed time to start a thread on just that topic. Here is where we can share our results using different soil substrates.

First, some definitions. "Soil" has different meanings to different people. For our purposes, "soil" means any growing medium intended for terrestrial plants, but which we have adapted for use in the planted aquarium. "Topsoil" has a very specific meaning to soil scientists, horticulturists, and geologists. Often, what is labeled "topsoil" in a bag in your garden center bears no resemblance to natural topsoil as understood by science. Most natural topsoil is primarily minerals, with only a small percentage of organic matter. In our discussion, we should use the general term topsoil to refer to naturally occurring surface soil. When we are talking about a specific commercial product that has "topsoil" as part of its name, we should be sure that is understood.

Another term that needs definition is "organic". In this discussion, organic is used in the scientific or chemical sense; that is, material derived from living matter. This organic matter will be in various stages of decomposition. When I use the term "organic" I am not referring to the organic method of gardening, and I most definitely do not mean the undefined marketing hype used to sell so-called "natural" products.

And one last bit of clarification, when we talk about soil in this discussion, we are not referring commercial brands of aquarium substrates, like Flourite, Eco Complete, ADA Aquasoil, etc. Some of these products are very good, and may be useful in the Walstad method. Some are not.

I will start the discussion in the next post. But the only way that this thread can become really useful is if you post your knowledge, experience, and questions too!


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## Michael

*Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix *(MGOC) is often recommended, and by Diana Walstad herself in her on-line article about small aquaria for shrimp at http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf. Unlike many other "potting soils", MGOC has a clear list of ingredients and a nutritional analysis on the bag:

50-55% composted bark
Sphagnum peat moss
Pasteurized poultry litter
"organic wetting agent" (whatever that is)

Analysis 0.10-0.05-0.05
total nitrogen 0.10%
available phosphate (P2O2) 0.05%
soluble potash (K2O) 0.05%
". . .feeds up to 2 months. . ."

This tells us several important things. First, this product is 100% organic matter. Remember, natural soils are almost never 100% organic matter-less than 20% is more common. So this soil is going to undergo a lot of decomposition in the aquarium.

Second, it has chicken manure in it, which makes it much more fertile (higher nutrient level) than most other potting mixes. But, these nutrients come from slow-release organic sources, not synthetic inorganic chemicals. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with synthetic fertilizers, but they behave differently when submerged than organic ones do. This higher fertility is expressed in the analysis (which shows much more nutrients than typical for potting mixes or natural soils) and the last statement, "feeds up to 2 months".

What does MGOC look like when you open the bag? It is dark brown, with a mix of fine particles and some pretty big chunks of not-yet fully decomposed bark. These chunks are a source of concern, for several reasons discussed below. I did a quick test with a ¼" soil sieve, and about 20 to 25% of MGOC will not go through the sieve, even after rubbing it hard with a gloved hand.

MGOC has three major advantages:
1. It is a nationally available product
2. The ingredients and analysis are clearly listed on the bag
3. It is relatively consistent no matter where you buy it. (Many other products vary greatly from one region to another.)

Used straight from the bag, MGOC has four major disadvantages:
1. The big pieces and many of the smaller pieces float, which can make a big mess if your cap is not heavy enough, or if you change your mind and move a plant.
2. The high nutrient content usually causes an ammonia spike in the first month following tank set-up.
3. The partially decomposed bark releases a lot of tannins into the water. This is not usually harmful to fish or plants, but the tea-colored water may look bad to you.
4. Because it is 100% organic matter, if the soil and/or cap is too deep, the soil layer may become very anaerobic. This is bad for many reasons.

Fortunately, there are easy ways to deal with all of these disadvantages.

The simplest ways are a thin soil layer, patience, and water changes. This soil is hot stuff, you do not need much! How deep a soil layer to use depends on size of tank and types of plants, but I would never use more than 1.5". For beginners and small tanks, 1" or less is plenty. Patience is necessary to allow the biological filter to develop properly and absorb the ammonia. Water changes help with that, and also remove the tannins. Eventually the big pieces become saturated with water and no longer float.

The more sophisticated ways to deal with these problems involve processing MGOC in some way before you use it. A quick and effective process is "soak and drain". Put the soil in a big bucket, cover it several inches with water, and stir well. Let it sit over night, then carefully pour off the floaters and the brown water. Fill, stir, and let sit over night again. Repeat the soaking and draining cycle until you see no floaters and the water is reasonably clear, or until you can't wait any longer, LOL. Seriously, three complete cycles is usually enough to make a big difference. This method will result in a loss of total volume of soil of 25-30%, so start with more than you need for the tank.

Another way to process MGOC is to mineralize it. This process is described fully in several great threads in the library forum. Mineralization greatly speeds decay of organic matter into a very stable form called humus. Humus does not release ammonia into the water, and is unlikely to become anaerobic.

And there is one last tip for using MGOC or any other highly organic soil: mix it with an inorganic substrate that has a high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Examples are laterite, Flourite, Turface, plain cat litter (no perfume, antimicrobials, or clumping agents), and Safe-T-Sorb. Remember, natural soil is almost never pure organic matter. Mixing the organic matter with inorganic high CEC substances means that the ammonia and other nutrients produced are held in the substrate where plant roots can use them, but where they will not harm fish. And by reducing the percentage of organic matter, you reduce the likelihood of the soil becoming anaerobic. I like a 50/50 mix. Phil Edwards first gave me this advice, and it has worked well for me.

Let's hear from eveyone else! What kinds of soil have you used in your Walstad tanks, and how well did they work?


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## tantaMD

this is what i usually do. soak the soil, let it get sedimented over time (not so long perhaps 12 hours) than we will get the floaters which usually wood peat. throw the wood peat. and than drain the water to the level of the soil. and than take a gulb of this wet soil cover it entirely by a piece of napkin, than compress it with hands. it will form a toy clay like material, and when it is used in tank usually it will mess the water very minimal. i dont know if this method will make anaerobic condition or not (because we compress it i think it will be more difficult for the soil to get aerated) but so far i have 3 tanks setted up with this method, and all of them have a good growth. i also add a little clay for this soil like 1:7 ratio


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## Michael

Compressing the soil with a cloth will not cause it to become anaerobic--you are probably just squeezing out the excess water.

Adding the clay has the same effect as mixing with an inorganc high CEC substrate. Most of these are just fancy forms of clay. And the mineralized topsoil (MTS) process includes adding clay if the soil doesn't have enough to begin with.

Thanks for sharing your method. What kind of soil are you starting with?


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## Spookyfish

Thank you Michael for taking time to post this! Awesome,thank you! I'm definitely going to try the 50/50 mix!


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## Michael

You're welcome, please let us know how the mix works for you.


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## tantaMD

Michael said:


> Compressing the soil with a cloth will not cause it to become anaerobic--you are probably just squeezing out the excess water.
> 
> Adding the clay has the same effect as mixing with an inorganc high CEC substrate. Most of these are just fancy forms of clay. And the mineralized topsoil (MTS) process includes adding clay if the soil doesn't have enough to begin with.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your method. What kind of soil are you starting with?


in indonesia it is way more easier to get a "home made" top soil than getting the branded one. for 50 cent u can get 10 kg of it. but usually they use cow dung for the fertilizer. so usually i use the soil in my garden first for like about 6 month before i use it for my tank


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## Michael

That is a good idea for any soil treated with fresh manure or that may be loaded with too many nutrients.


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## aquabillpers

Michael,

This is an ambitious thread! Thanks for starting it.

I've maintained "soil-based" tanks for at least 10 years, generally with some success. I use the cheapest bagged "top soil" that I can find. Then I "mineralize" it.

"Mineralization", in this context, means the conversion of the organics in the soil to minerals that are available to the plants, and in a form that doesn't lead to algae and other problems. 

I mineralize the top soil by soaking it in a pail of water for a week or so, with several water changes. Unwanted material floats to the top and is easily removed. I rarely have any algae in new tanks, and when I do it is always BGA which often disappears on its own in a week or so.

My problem with MGOC is that it has too many organics, and as you noted, it can cause problems. I have a bag of it here and I'll use it eventually, but I'll mineralize it first and, after that is done, it should be about the same as the cheap bagged topsoil. So why bother with it?

(Diane can grow any plant anywhere with anything, so the rules that apply to most of us don't apply to her.  )

If anyone disagrees with my definition of "mineralization" or anything else that I've said, I hope that they'll post their comments.

Bill


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## Michael

Bill, I agree that the 100% organic make-up of MGOC is the cause of most problems with using it. The added nutrients from the poultry manure just make it worse. Yet because it is so frequently recommended and widely available, I thought it best to start the thread using it as an example.

Recently I've used high-quality homemade compost from a neighbor, mineralized it, and have very good results. But I still mix it with Turface or Safe-T-Sorb so that the soil part of my substate is not 100% organic.

What brands of "topsoil" have you used, and where did you buy them?


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## aquabillpers

Michael,

I've bought most of my topsoil from Home Depot. i avoid the name brands; I buy the cheapest that has no additives.

BTW, when I take down a tank after 5 years or so, the original soil has become a clay-like substance. Tom Barr says that is what's left after all of the original material has been used up.

Bill


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## Michael

Yes, for our purposes the additives are almost always bad!

The generic, off-brand topsoils can vary a lot from region to region, and even from one season to another, depending on what materials are available. What I would love to know is, has anyone had problems from using any of these generic soils?

I find that same clay-like soil in my old tanks. My guess is that it is the stable mineral components of the soil I started with, plus humus from decayed organics. The organics come from the original soil, and from all the biological processes that have been going on in the tank for the entire time it was set up. A further guess is that it is relatively low in nutrients (used up), but still has a high CEC.

Funny you should mention it, but I just took down a tank over the weekend, and that old clayey soil was packed with roots from the pigmy chain sword that had taken over the tank. I have new respect for the roots of that species!


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## BruceF

Okay then, the difference between humus and “organics” is?


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## Michael

Humus is organic material that is thoroughly decomposed, so that you can no longer tell what it was originally. It is extremely stable, and can remain unchanged for hundreds of years in the right conditions. It is not high in nutrients, but it does have excellent CEC and provides a great surface for the growth of beneficial bacteria. Some kinds of peat are humus.

A Google search or Wikipedia will give tons of information about humus.


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## alden

Michael, thanks for this thread. I'm a new member and want to know yours, and others, thoughts on the following. I'm just starting my journey into npt/Walstad/el natural tanks, and want to start with an experimental 10 gallon tank followed by a local north american biotope in a 30 gallon. The 10 gallon tank will be my first Walstad style tank and I want to experiment with different setups and see how they age. Would it be a bad idea to start with soil from a garden compost, mineralize it, then mix it 1:1 as recommended above? Would it make sense to take soil/sediment from the lake for the eventual biotope and do the same? Or is it really better to start with a consistent bagged soil that has worked for others?
You may assume I basically understand what I'm doing in terms of planting and stocking the tank... I'm just trying to avoid any obvious mistakes with setting up the substrate. I'll try to update with progress as I'm learning.
Thanks again!


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## Michael

Alden, you are welcome, and please let us know how your tank turns out!

I think either the garden compost or the lake sediments would work. As mentioned before, I've used compost made by my neighbor who is the local vegetable gardening expert. He runs his compost material through a chipper/shredder that produces very fine particles to begin with, then takes it through a hot composting process, then grinds it again. (He is my compost guru, LOL.) It mineralizes very well, and gives me good results.

One of our very knowledgable members Phil Edwards worked at an aquatic vegetation research facility while doing his PhD. One of the research ponds had what he called "magic mud", a silty sediment that grew aquarium plants better than anything Phil had ever used. So if your lake sediment is already growing plants _in situ_, it should be fine for aquarium use. You would probably want to take it through some wet-dry cycles to help eliminate weeds and pests.

Setting up a test tank is a great idea. You can actually do something much smaller, like a gallon "fish bowl" or jar. I do a lot of these things just to propagate plants, and try different substrates. You can usually get a good idea how well a particular substrate works within a couple of months. And you can test efffects on animals by putting in a few snails, shrimp and/or guppies.


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## Skizhx

Since we're talking about organics in soils so much, I feel this thread is relevant...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=154884

An important thing to keep in mind is that this tank worked... Not that I recommend copying it, but learn from his extreme approach...


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## Michael

Thanks for reminding me of the famous dog poop tank! As you say, I would not recommend it, but it really does put many of our anxieties about soil into proper perspective. In other words, don't worry so much.

Dogfish is also a member of APC, maybe he will pay us a visit.


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## chrislewistx

Great topic Michael. I hope others start to post their experience using specific soils soon.

In another thread you mentioned that less experienced hobbyist should stay away from "Hot" soils. When you said "hot" did you mean something like straight MGOC, that has not been mineralized? Or perhaps you meant high organic content soils in general? Such as when you stated this earlier in the thread.

_"Used straight from the bag, MGOC has four major disadvantages:
1. The big pieces and many of the smaller pieces float, which can make a big mess if your cap is not heavy enough, or if you change your mind and move a plant.
2. The high nutrient content usually causes an ammonia spike in the first month following tank set-up.
3. The partially decomposed bark releases a lot of tannins into the water. This is not usually harmful to fish or plants, but the tea-colored water may look bad to you.
4. Because it is 100% organic matter, if the soil and/or cap is too deep, the soil layer may become very anaerobic. This is bad for many reasons.

Fortunately, there are easy ways to deal with all of these disadvantages."_


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## Michael

Sorry, that is terrestrial gardener's slang.

Yes, I would classify MGOC as "hot" because it is 100% organic matter that is not fully decomposed AND it has a high nutrient content (for aquarium soil).

A soil that is 100% humus would not be hot. It is still 100% organic matter, but nutrients are low and it will not decompose much (if at all) in the aquarium.


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## jmn

Micheal, I really appreciate this thread. I've been reading Diane's book and trying the Walstand method for the last 5 months with really negligable success. Your explanation of Miracle Grow and mineralization has been the clearest yet. Maybe a set of important criteria to compare could be formed and put in a chart form for a sticky (ie, cost, handling, plant growth, algae, etc)?

I've been experimenting with several soil option and here's my experience so far (newbie):

1) 20gal community tank with native Chicagoland soil (4mo old). Fish ok (only lost one), snail deaths, and water quality fine but horrible algae problems -- black, green hair, red, and overwhelming brown algae continuously for 3 months. Stem plants rot out; rooted plants don't grow. Messy to work with and adding plants makes a small mess. Cheap. (Excavating crayfish and overly large soil depth likely big parts of issues. T5HO output lights only. HOB filter.)

2) 1L Vase of same Chicago soil in sunny window with Naja grass, no filter -- grows like crazy (4mo old). Snails, no fish.

3) Fluval Substratum: easiest to work with; no discoloration of water. Still takes a long time to cycle the tank. Plants healthiest of all tanks so far. No algae. Very expensive -- $30 for 10gal tank. Nitrates super high at 180, KH 0-17. HOB and single T8 light. Cherry shrimp, floating plants, a few val and anubias nana. No plant deaths; many new leaves; floater sent roots into the soil quickly. 

4) 4gal Vase with homemade mineralized topsoil (Scott's) with 10% grey clay, egg shell for CaCO3, epsom salts for Mg+, light salt for K+. Sunny window. Anacharis, val. Up and running 10d and ammonia and nitrites very high at 4.0ppm and 1ppm. No fish, no filter. Mineralized soil: cheap, time-consuming, adding clay makes handling easier as more gelatinous. No big poof of dirt when moving or adding a plant. Customizable with various minerals/ferts. Minimal water discoloration.

5) 1.8 gal betta bowl and 20gal snail tank with Miracle Grow. Lots of floaters, really yellow water regardless of water changes. Amazon sword rotting immediately. Val seems to like it. Mondo grass fine. Middle of road price, requires too much rinsing to make it worth it as a substrate. Tried mineralizing Miracle Grow -- lost 80% in the process; expensive loss and still very yellow water. I will avoid Miracle Grow in future.

Summary: mineralized soil with clay has the best handling for me short of buying commercial (Fluval) -- no yellow water or dirt poofs. Most time consumming though labor-wise and need to plan your tank far in advance (not overnight instant set-up with this method -- takes 7-14d to make) but customizable with one's one additives. Started with 80lb topsoil and ended up with about 25lb mineralized -- topsoil must be mostly water and mulch? 

All these tanks regardless of substrate have cycling issues -- have yet to see 0 ammonia and nitrite in any of these set ups. Not sure I'm seeing the "instantly cycled" effect eluded to in "The Ecology of the Planted Tank" book -- still having to do water changes to keep on top of the nitrate cycle. Are others still have long cycles even with soil substrates?

Sorry for the super-long post -- needed to vent about this method a bit; low-tech but not low-maintainence in my hands. Will continue my experiments in hopes of finding what works for me -- going to try the 50/50 mineralized:clay mentioned about as well as different types of clay and see what happens.


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## Silvering

Using soil in my own little 1g experiment bowl, I found that even "old" soil I took from my flower garden, that I would presume had been mineralized from years of exposure to weather, grew a massive amount of algae, even when planted with a ton of trimmings from my other tank right from the beginning. I shudder to think what would have happened in a larger tank I actually cared about keeping presentable! (Granted, I did no maintenance but top-offs for something like ten months, so maybe the horrifying algae was due to me not changing water at all...)

However, I just had a thought: I use canister filters on my tanks, and when I do a major sponge-squeeze, I get quite a bit of organic material out, most of which is very fine and probably well along the way to becoming humus. I wonder what would happen if I found some way of drying and saving it? Shouldn't it make a good substrate supplement, since it's composed primarily of solid fish waste? It would take quite a long time to build up enough of the stuff to use as a substrate itself, but I doubt it would be very "hot" material. Am I correct or totally off base?


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## Michael

Jmn, thank you, I am glad it is helpful. And I am sorry that you have not had much success so far. I had a very different experience--my first Walstad tank was a great success (after the ammonia spike, see below).

I always go through a "cycling" period when I set up a new tank. MGOC straight from the bag was the worst, it took a month before the tank was safe for fish. Processed MGOC was better, and the easiest/quickest was mineralized soil mixed with Turface or Safe-T-Sorb. I have not used Fluval Stratum.

One of my complaints about most commercial substrates is that their ingredients and manufacture are secrets--try to find out what is in Stratum or Aquasoil. My best guess is that those two products are actually very similar, and both produce an ammonia spike in a new tank.

I think Diana Walstad gets away with putting fish in a tank right away for two reasons. First, she really stuffs the tank with healthy, fast growing plants right from the beginning. This is critical. For those of us who do not have access to our own plants or really good plants in large quantities from other hobbyists, it is difficult to plant a new tank densely enough with healthy plants that will start absorbing ammonia from the water immediately. Limp, sickly plants from the Petsmart, or plants traumatized by shipping just are not the same.

Second, Walstad is an expert! She watches the new tank carefully, and is prepared to do large water changes quickly if she sees subtle signs that something is going wrong. I'm not that good.

A few questions:

How many T5 HO tubes are you running over your 20 gallon? Honestly, I think more than one is probably too much light, and the likely cause of your algae problems.

What is your native soil like in Chicago?

You mention mondo grass, did you get this at a big box retail place? It is actually _Ophiopogon japonicus_, a terrestrial plant that will last for a fairly long time submerged, but usually rots. (To be fair, some people say that it survives long term and even grows, but I remain skeptical.) I hate the fact that such places sell it for use in aquaria.

Your comment about the Scott's is interesting. I haven't tried the "Premium Topsoil" in a full set-up yet, but one of our other members has worked with it a lot, and will give us a report pretty soon.

Thanks for the post; a post with good observations and good questions is rarely too long.


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## aquabillpers

One of the problems in using "wild" topsoil from a garden or elsewhere is that one does not know what is in it. Gardens are often fertilized, and even if they aren't, there are many sources of organic material that can become part of it.

If one does use "wild" topsoil, IMO it should be mineralized for a week or more, as described earlier in this thread.

When I set up a new soil tank with well mineralized soil, I add a few fish as soon as the water clears, a day or so. I've never had a problem. I think mineralization is the key.

Bill


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## Skizhx

I have to admit... I've never quite understood why ammonia release is seen as such a bad thing...

Personally, I just take it into account as something to expect and make it work for me...

Great source of nitrogen that plants will use through passive intake, and it gets your nitrogen cycle going without having to expose fish to an uncycled tank.

Personally I view it as one of the advantages of soil. Not a drawback.

Mind you I start new tanks very slowly and introduce fauna pretty late and pretty slowly.


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## aquabillpers

Algae love ammonia. Its presence is a key to tell it to reproduce. While plants like it too, the algae has a faster response. Hence the result.

Bill


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## Skizhx

I'm aware of that, and I have had algae in early stages of soil tanks before. But it always recedes on its own once things stabilize.

I've also started up tanks and jars that had nothing more than a dusting of diatoms during their early stages despite there being ammonia in the water. Also receded on its own.

Not that I don't agree the link between ammonia and algae exists, just that given my own experience and the lack of a chapter in Walstad's book discussing the importance of soil mineralisation, I feel a little differently about it than others seem to is all.


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## BruceF

I have a ~15g ceramic pot in the backyard. It gets sun in the morning and then shade for the rest of the day. It has a miracle grow organic potting soil layer capped by sand. It was planted fairly heavily from the start. 
At first it developed a thick brown/green algae of some kind on the walls of the pot. The water was murky from the substrate and I assumed algae. Since there was no mechanical water movement the substrate settle out of the water fairly quickly. 
Within the first 10 days I started noticing mosquito larva so I added some gambusia. I think it was four of them. About three weeks into the process the water started to clear and the algae on the pot walls started to die off. “Magically” this tank has developed a large population of ramshorn snails. 
I assume that since there is no water movement short of weather the substrate in this tank is fairly anoxic. The pot has a typically ‘sweet’ smell so I don’t really see that as a problem, though I imagine that if I were to disturb the substrate I would find the typically anaerobic scents.


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## Skizhx

I wouldn't be surprised if the plant roots kept the substrate healthy.

Walstad's advice seems to be that circulation is only necessary in taller aquariums. But doesn't hurt smaller aquariums...


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## Michael

Bruce, I do a lot of these little "patio ponds" outside every year. The progression of your pot is pretty typical for them. I usually put the plants in shallow pots, but the principle is the same.

Strong rooted plants will definitely keep even a rather deep substrate from becoming anaerobic. Water lilies are the best.


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## Jeremy M

" 'Mineralization', in this context, means the conversion of the organics in the soil to minerals that are available to the plants, and in a form that doesn't lead to algae and other problems."

I mineralize the top soil by soaking it in a pail of water for a week or so, with several water changes. Unwanted material floats to the top and is easily removed.


I take it that the 'mineralization' process usually regards to the actual conversion of soil to humus. The only way I know how is to use the repeated wet-and-let-dry technique, where wet soil is spread out on a tarp and dried out. Bacteria that break down organic materials thrive in moist, oxygen-rich environments, and this is precisely what is being recreated in this process. After many repetitions of this, the soil should be reduced to its base state, a completely stable form of nutrients and minerals directly accessible for your plants.
Somewhere in the process larger particles are usually filtered out through a screen/mesh, and all that is left are small sandlike pieces, so no worrying about removing floaters.

Using mineralization in the broader term of converting organics to useable minerals, I still fail to see how your method would accomplish this. I've done the same thing in the past, and aLthough it is a good way to get rid of some of the initial unwanted materials and would certainly reduce ammonia produced by removing a good amount of organic materials, the soil is chemically about the same at the end of the process. I see no difference between doing this in a bucket and it happening in an actual tank environment. Since the soil is pretty much identical to what you started with, save a few components removed, I don't believe it would be classified as 'mineralization', although there is no doubt about the beneficial factors this process would have. 

does anyone else have thoughts on this? as usual, i'd love to be wrong ;D


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## D9Vin

I am no expert, but I always understood that the wet/dry cycles encourage soil bacteria growth that digests the organics in the soil down a bit. It definitely changes the characteristics of it, once you finish it should have a fluffy sandy texture and not smell as much.


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## Michael

Jeremy, welcome to APC!

In a sense, I think we are all talking about the same thing. I've always thought that "mineralization" was a somewhat misleading term. It does not convert the organics into a truly mineral (inorganic) form--that requires high heat or other means of chemical change. It does rapidly decompose fresh or incompletely decomposed organic materials into a completely decomposed, stable form called humus. Humus is the term usually used for the solid form found in soil. Humus can also be dissolved in water, in which case it is sometimes called "humic substances" or "dissolved organic carbon" (DOC).

This rapid decomposition occurs best in a moist, oxygen rich environment. For practical purposes, the wet-dry cycles are the easiest way to accomplish this. But the same type of decomposition can and does occur submerged, as long as oxygen levels are high enough.

Some time ago I read of a method for producing liquid fertilizer for terrestrial plants from poultry manure. Poultry manure is very "hot" and will "burn" (damage roots) if applied directly to plants. Simply described, you put a few handfulls of poultry manure in a bucket, fill it with water, and drop an airstone in it. The manure is suspended and constantly mixed with oxygen rich water. It breaks down a becomes usable in a few days to a week. Since I keep chickens, I tried it and it works. It was too messy and smelly for me, but in large scale poultry farms with proper equipment it is very effective.

So, if while soaking your soil you keep the oxygen levels high in the water, you can "mineralize" the soil while it is submerged.

Again, back to practicality. Most of the effect of ordinary soaking and draining is to simply remove the excess nutrients by dissolving them in water and pouring them on the lawn. But some aerobic decomposition does occur while oxygen levels are high enough in the water.


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## xenxes

Speaking only from experience, I've never had problems with MGOPS. 

I've also used other cheaper soil alternatives (lots of woodchips), these lead to more brown tannins leeched into the water overtime, but was only an aesthetic problem. 

Fish/shrimp/everything are thriving. Key is to plant very very very heavily and to let the tank stabilize for a month after planting.


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## chrislewistx

Hello Xenxes,

What kind of process do you put the MGOC through before use, or do you just put in a tank.


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## xenxes

When I first started... I baked it at 350F for an hour (whole house smelled like dirt!), sifted through in a strainer carefully to take out anything wood/perlite that might float.

After that yeah.. I just dump it in, my latest tank I grabbed old soil out of a planter outside and threw it in, capped some gravel and sand, and added water. I like the biodiversity in dirt, lots of nematodes (little white/clear worms) to compost down waste--think earthworms and garden compost. A lot of aquarists go crazy and try to nuke the tank with every chemical they have and end up killing the beneficial fauna, along with everything else they have.

First few weeks is some work, I netted out floating bits and pieces, did a water change or two to get rid of tannins. Now this latest tank is 3 weeks old--it's stabilized and doing alright under a crappy low light. I threw in some mutant Rili shrimp and they berried within a few days.










Here's a medium light natural tank.









Lastly here's a high light natural tank, you can keep plants red and thriving without CO2 injection.










All dirt + sand/gravel. No CO2. Biodiversity (worms+snails+shrimp, some with fish). Densely planted. Minimal (once a month at most) water changes. 150-200 TDS. 5-6 GH.

It doesn't have to be Miracle Grow ORGANIC, it should just be a POTTING soil (less fertilizer/ammonia packed). I like Organic best because it has the fewest perlite/woodchips/stuff that would float into the water that you have to net out.


----------



## Skizhx

This is the Scott's topsoil I've mentioned a few times but that I haven't been able to find the packaging anywhere. I'm not sure if it's the same as what everyone else is using, or whether it's a regional product.










I'd like to provide more information (like what's on the back of the bag, pictures of the soil, pictures of the aquarium, etc) but I wasn't home long enough to get much more than a quick cell pic of the bag.

I'll be sure to update with aquarium pictures (it was looking quite nice when I saw it despite 6 weeks of neglect).

As I've said before, I like this soil for its lack of tannin leaching, and because I've found it to be quite clean and easy to work with.










Had some time to prune and maintain the scape. Things had gotten quite overgrown and the dwarf sag was invading the foreground.


----------



## tantaMD

xenxes said:


> When I first started... I baked it at 350F for an hour (whole house smelled like dirt!), sifted through in a strainer carefully to take out anything wood/perlite that might float.
> 
> After that yeah.. I just dump it in, my latest tank I grabbed old soil out of a planter outside and threw it in, capped some gravel and sand, and added water. I like the biodiversity in dirt, lots of nematodes (little white/clear worms) to compost down waste--think earthworms and garden compost. A lot of aquarists go crazy and try to nuke the tank with every chemical they have and end up killing the beneficial fauna, along with everything else they have.
> 
> First few weeks is some work, I netted out floating bits and pieces, did a water change or two to get rid of tannins. Now this latest tank is 3 weeks old--it's stabilized and doing alright under a crappy low light. I threw in some mutant Rili shrimp and they berried within a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a medium light natural tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly here's a high light natural tank, you can keep plants red and thriving without CO2 injection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All dirt + sand/gravel. No CO2. Biodiversity (worms+snails+shrimp, some with fish). Densely planted. Minimal (once a month at most) water changes. 150-200 TDS. 5-6 GH.
> 
> It doesn't have to be Miracle Grow ORGANIC, it should just be a POTTING soil (less fertilizer/ammonia packed). I like Organic best because it has the fewest perlite/woodchips/stuff that would float into the water that you have to net out.


xenxes, your high light natural tank were beautiful! what kind of red plants do u use? i know that some plants that been categorized difficult plants actually can be grown in el natural. but from my understanding it should not be planted with high density of other species, because very likely they will lose in CO2 absorbtion competition from other plants. but u did just the contrary  , so i'm very eager to know the species of red plants u use


----------



## xenxes

ludwigia glandulosa (big one) and ludwigia red japan, glandulosa is a bit of a pain, very slow grower and prone to algae breaks. the smaller red japan is much easier.

I have 3-4 eriocaulon parkeri growing in here just fine too.


----------



## Rivercats

Hi, I'm new here and think I found the forum I've been looking for. Others with dirted tanks, discussing them. I've had tanks since the 70's and last year decided to get my 220 gallon and dirt it. I used an organic soil from Lowes I had used for years in potted pond plants. I did 1-1/2" of soil, then capped with 1-1/2" or Eco-complete. I have 3x150w HID Metal Halide and 4x39w T5HO. This is a list of the plants I am growing:

Nesaea pedicellata 'Golden' 
Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides' 
Rotala Indica (Rotala roundifolia)
Rotala macrandra
Rotala Wallichii 
Anubias barteri v. Nana
Bolbitus heudelotii
Pogostemon helferi 
Java Fern, Lace (Microsorium pteropus v. Windelov)
Crinum Calimistratum 
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Florida Sunset'
Tiger Lotus, Red (Nymphaea zenkeri)
Cryptocoryne Parva 
Cryptocoryne lutea
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Bronze 
Amazon Sword (Echinodorus bleheri)
Ozelot Sword 
Corkscrew Val

I have had excellent growth, little algae, and good plant color and I attribute that to the soil. I use liquid carbon, no CO2 (yet). What I am wondering is how long will it take for the organic soil to deplete it's nutrient load? I've had planted tanks but this is the first time for a dirted one.


----------



## Michael

Rivercats, welcome to APC!

Sounds like a great tank you have going. If there was no other source of fertility, my guess is that the soil would be exhausted in 6 months to a year. But I suspect there are some fish in there, lol, and with fish comes fish food.

Diana Walstad demonstrated through chemical analysis that fish food contains all the nutrients necessary for plant growth. So if you have just moderate fish population and feed generously, you should be adding enough nutrients so that the soil will absorb them by CEC, and hold them until the plant roots find them.

In this way, the soil never becomes depleted. Even when the initial supply of nutrients are used up, the soil never loses its CEC, so it always has the ability to absorb nutrients from fish food and any animal waste in the tank.


----------



## xenxes

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> Sounds like a great tank you have going. If there was no other source of fertility, my guess is that the soil would be exhausted in 6 months to a year. But I suspect there are some fish in there, lol, and with fish comes fish food.
> 
> Diana Walstad demonstrated through chemical analysis that fish food contains all the nutrients necessary for plant growth. So if you have just moderate fish population and feed generously, you should be adding enough nutrients so that the soil will absorb them by CEC, and hold them until the plant roots find them.
> 
> In this way, the soil never becomes depleted. Even when the initial supply of nutrients are used up, the soil never loses its CEC, so it always has the ability to absorb nutrients from fish food and any animal waste in the tank.


Yep fish poo & food should be enough macro / micro. I keep mostly shrimp in my tanks so I insert a few osmocote tabs every 6 months.


----------



## Rivercats

I've got a school of 10 angelfish, 21 rummy nose, 13 diamond tetras, BN Pleco, oto's, and 3 whiptail cats. I feed sparingly. I have added iron root tabs but that's it. I was convinced by others to start dosing PPS-Pro daily and have actually seen improvement in some plants. What I think I've been reading here is many don't fertilize in the water column? What root tabs would you suggest since I currently don't have any?


----------



## tantaMD

Rivercats said:


> Hi, I'm new here and think I found the forum I've been looking for. Others with dirted tanks, discussing them. I've had tanks since the 70's and last year decided to get my 220 gallon and dirt it. I used an organic soil from Lowes I had used for years in potted pond plants. I did 1-1/2" of soil, then capped with 1-1/2" or Eco-complete. I have 3x150w HID Metal Halide and 4x39w T5HO. This is a list of the plants I am growing:
> 
> Nesaea pedicellata 'Golden'
> Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides'
> Rotala Indica (Rotala roundifolia)
> Rotala macrandra
> Rotala Wallichii
> Anubias barteri v. Nana
> Bolbitus heudelotii
> Pogostemon helferi
> Java Fern, Lace (Microsorium pteropus v. Windelov)
> Crinum Calimistratum
> Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Florida Sunset'
> Tiger Lotus, Red (Nymphaea zenkeri)
> Cryptocoryne Parva
> Cryptocoryne lutea
> Cryptocoryne Wendtii Bronze
> Amazon Sword (Echinodorus bleheri)
> Ozelot Sword
> Corkscrew Val
> 
> I have had excellent growth, little algae, and good plant color and I attribute that to the soil. I use liquid carbon, no CO2 (yet). What I am wondering is how long will it take for the organic soil to deplete it's nutrient load? I've had planted tanks but this is the first time for a dirted one.


rivercats, sounds u have a very fun tank there. could u send us the picture of ur tank  ?


----------



## Michael

Rivercats, I don't fertilize at all--not in the water column and not in the substrate. I don't know anything about the commercial aquarium substrate fertilizers, but I do use Osmocote for my pond plants, and many use it in aquariums.

You have plenty of fish. This is going to sound like a funny question, but do you also have snails in your tank? One of the reasons I get away with feeding my fish generously is that I have lots of snails. They do a great job of converting extra fish food into a form that is not as likely to cause water quality problems and is good plant food--feces.


----------



## Rivercats

Yes, I have snails, mostly MTS, but also a few nerites. Accidently got common pond snails in awhile back but the yo-yo loaches took care of them, and yet they leave the MTS and nerites alone!


----------



## Michael

Cool! I actually farm snails for my paradise fish, striated loaches, and assassin snails. But I don't have any Malaysian trumpet snails (MTS)--I keep asking, but no one will give me any!


----------



## Rivercats

If you were any closer I'd say "come and get em!" I accidently got some when I found a piece of DW at the LFS with alot of small starts of Java Fern Windelov. Didn't even see the snails. Now over a year later... snails and snails. I just moved them into different tanks and now have them everywhere. Except, I had no clue that large (6"+) fancy goldfish would eat them... my bad, no MTS's in that tank!


----------



## jmn

Hi Micheal,

I have plenty of MTS if you'd like any, I can send them from IL. Just tell me how to package and send -- never sent anything alive in the mail before.

I'm glad MTS came up -- just set up 3 more soil bottom tanks (10gal, 15watt fluorescent, sponge filter or small HOBs). I'd like to spread my MTS amongst the new tanks but this species burrows in the substrate and periodically emerges topside -- will this cause too much disturbance in the cap and send nutrients into the water? 

My disastrous 20gal (see post on page 2) has lots of these but don't know how much to attribute the crazy algae to crayfish digging, snails burrowing, 54W lighting or the the backyard dirt I didn't mineralize. Maybe all.

Anyway, if nobody knows, I'll drop some in the new tanks and see what happens.


----------



## Michael

Thanks, jmn, but that won't be necessary. I am SURE that someone here has some, even if I have to clean tanks at the LFS, lol.

I don't know for certain if they make a mess in soil substrates or not. I was going to try them in a Walstad nano where I also keep assassin snails, figuring that they couldn't over-populate in that situation.


----------



## Rivercats

tantaMD said:


> rivercats, sounds u have a very fun tank there. could u send us the picture of ur tank  ?


I'm going to get pic's in a couple 2-3 weeks. Just removed 3 areas of plants that didn't "thrill" me and replanted new ones. Tank looks funny right now, real funny I am also learning how to load and attach pic's (don't laugh I'm not a spring chicken and never had any reason to mess with the computers- now retired and wow I have lots of time). I'm pretty proud of it since I had never tried dirted with such a large tank. Now couldn't be happier with my decision.


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## Rivercats

I've never had and soil disruption with the MTS's but then I have a 1-1/2 cap.


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## Skizhx

Ditto, MTS have never caused any problems in my soil tank, regardless of cap depth...

I find if it moves through the cap slow enough and with enough movement, the displaced substrate will collapse around it to refill the space so soil wont escape.

This is how I go about uprooting dwarf sag, and so far hasn't failed me.


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## Michael

Thanks, that's good to know.


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## Diana K

Here is away of testing soils such as bagged topsoils, and your own garden soils. 

1) Get a straight sided jar, and put some masking tape vertically on the jar. 1 quart is the largest I would use, 1 pint works just fine. Make sure you have a secure lid. 
2) Get a sample of the soil that roughly is about 1/2 to 3/4 of a jar full. If it has clumps break them up. Remove obvious stuff like rocks and sticks. 
3) Mark on the tape the height of the soil.
4) Add water and a drop or two of dish detergent. Dish washer stuff is best, lowest suds. Pretty much fill the jar. 
5) Shake. If the soil soaks up all the water add more. Shake some more. And some more. About the time your arm falls off set the jar down. 
6) start timing. Watch the soil land on the bottom of the jar. Mark on the tape how deep the soil is at different times. 
30 seconds
2 minutes
2 hours
overnight. 
7) Do some math. Measure those depths and figure out what % of the total soil is in each different level. 

How to interpret the results:

First 30 seconds is sand. This is good. 50-75% is a good ratio. 
To 2 minutes is silt. This is a specific soil particle size. This is good. 30-60% is a good ratio
To 2 hours is the coarser clay. Clay is the soil particle size with high CEC. A certain amount of clay is good, but usually no more than about 10%. Finer clay will settle out overnight. 

If the water is still cloudy overnight then that is the clay that is so small Brownian motion is keeping it suspended. This is called Colloidal Clay. This is not good in the aquarium, the water will never be still enough for it to settle. It might clump together over time, but I would not use soil that leaves the water any more tinted than barely hazy. Certainly if I cannot see through it after it has settled overnight then there is no way I would put it in a water setting (pond or tank). 

If the water is tinted yellow, brown, red or some variation, and especially if you see floating matter then this is organic matter. Bark, sticks, weeds... all the way down to humus. I happen to like a lightly tinted tank, and a small amount of sticks on the substrate just makes it look more natural, to me. You can remove a certain amount of the coarser organic matter, just net out anything that floats. You cannot separate out the humus, though. If the water is too dark, then you cannot use this soil source as the only substrate. 

Using the results:
If there is too much stuff in the water you could try a sample tank, bucket, storage bin, jar... and see if it settles over time. Treat it like an aquarium, stir the water like there is a filter running on it, do water changes... if you do not like what happens then do something else, or do not use this material. 

Try the soil with a cap. It might be that bare soil would keep clouding the water, but capping it will slow the water movement at the surface of the substrate and no allow too much more to enter the water column. 

Over time microorganisms in the soil will bind the soil particles together, so that even colloidal clay may settle out. It is helpful to have humus in there, it acts as a binding site to hold very fine soil particles. This may be helpful in the garden, but it probably takes too long in an aquarium unless the colloidal clay level is pretty low. 

If you have not used any detergent in there, and you used distilled or RO water then you can test the water for all the plant nutrients with aquarium tests or soil sample tests. If you used tap water, then substrate the amount of minerals that came in with the tap water.


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## Michael

Great post! I have a similar post you made long ago bookmarked. That test is how I determined that my native topsoil is unsuitable for aquarium use--large percentage of colloidal clay.


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## Dejong

commercial pond soil like the stuff you would use for potting lilies is high in clay and other minerals. Any experience with that as a medium for aquarium plants?


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## Michael

Dejong, welcome to APC!

I have been told that Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil is essentially the same thing as Turface, which would mean that it has high CEC but no nutrients to speak of. I have no direct experience with any of the commercial pond products.


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## D9Vin

I think if the only problem with a soil is a high clay content, it would be easily remedied by putting the dirt 1/3 to 1/2 full in a five gallon bucket, fill it with water, stir it up until all the dirt is swirling, let sit for an hour to a day, and then just pour off the top. This is how you get natural clay, you save what is poured off the top and then dry it, so what is left would have a much lower clay content. If you wanted it lower still, just repeat the process.


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## Patriot100%

I use whatever soil I could find in the host country that I live in at the time. If the soil has perlite I dont worry too much about it because the cap will keep it down. Plus I believe it will keep the soil from settling down too hard and keep it soft. I like to dry and grind the clay to powder while using balls of it near the back where the swords will be. I added worm castings to the soil this time to test it out. I also added peat to the mix to go along with the clay, I read in that it helps iron get absorbed better. So far so good with my swords putting out two deep red leaves in three days with another one behind it. I sometime get carried away with adding clay to the soil because I love crypts and swords. My tanks almost always only have them because shipping times for me can be 3+ weeks, they always survive longer than stems imo when shipping. I do want to try and use less soil next time. Do anyone else slope the soil in the back or do you only slope the capping substrate?


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## CalCity_Boone

I have a 55 gallon that I'm using MGOC and pool filter sand. I've just set it up today.
The front and sides have a 2in x 2in sand border the center is 44in of Miracle Grow at an inch high with a 1/2 inch of flourite on top. The last 1/2 is pool sand.

I didn't tell my wife about this site; she thinks I'm genius.:^o

Thanks, APC!


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## Angie

Bump so the next person that wont's to read it wont have to hunt it down.
Great thread. Thank you so much.


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## Sternste

I'm new to planted aquariums and looking forward to setting up my first NPT. Thank you for the great substrate advice! My question is: if mineralizing soil is essentially turning it into humus, can I just buy humus from a gardening store and use that as my substrate?
Thank you!


----------



## Michael

Sternste, welcome to APC!

I think the answer to your question is yes. The problem is finding real humus in a retail store. Some specialty "Organic" suppliers sell it, but it is hard to find, at least here in Texas. You can order it on line.

The closest thing I have been able to find is my neighbor's finished compost, and it gives very good results.


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## Sternste

Thanks Michael. How do I tell if a store bought humus is the real thing? Do I look for an organic brand without added ingredients?
If I can't find any, I'll use one of the other methods you talked about in the beginning of the thread. Thanks again for your advice!


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## Michael

Real humus is very dark brown, almost black, and has a very fine texture. It will have no large pieces of anything, and the original materials cannot be recognized in the particles. If you can see anything that looks like wood, bark, leaves, stems, etc. it is not humus.

Buying an "Organic" brand with no other ingredients will help. Price may also be a guideline. Real humus takes a long time to form, much longer than any commericial composting process lasts. So most real humus on the market is "mined" from natural sources, which makes it rather expensive. Some kinds of peat are a type of humus that forms in acid, anaerobic environments in wetlands.

I'm not trying to discourage you! I really hope you find some, and please let us know how it works for you.


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## JayBloke

Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with "TETRA PLANT COMPLETE SUBSTRATE SOIL".I would use a cheap soil and minerlise it but,I live in the UK for one thing so drying out soil at this time of year would become a bit of an in house joke,not to mention the local cats using it as a litter substitute.

I would obviously be capping off what ever I use but any advice on the above or other alternatives would be greatly appreciated.


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## Michael

Jay, I don't know anything about the product you mention. But you could get good results without the drying cycles. Choose a soil that is not fertilized with synthetic or natural materials (manure). Soak and rinse it several times. Then mix the soil with a high CEC material that doesn't add any nutrients. Since you are in the UK, some of our low cost alternatives may not be available, but Flourite, EcoComplete, and plain clay cat litter would all work. I usually mix soil and CEC substrate half and half.

This will give you most of the benefits of mineralizing the soil, and reduce release of excess nutrients that prolongs the cycle time for a new tank.


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## JayBloke

Cheers Michael I will have a look in to the materials you mention and see which are available in the UK(The cat litter of course should be a given).


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## trl_21

Hi All,

My first post here. I am planning on setting up my first fully planted tank using the 'El Natural' approach and have been doing lots of background reading around the forum. What an informative site!

My intentions are to use Westland John Innes No. 3 soil (UK brand) and mix it with some kitty litter. The soil will be soaked and drained several times before use. Something I have not been able to find information on however is whether I need to use dechlorinated water for the soak/drain procedure? Will chlorinated water straight out of the tap kill off the beneficial bacteria in the soil which are needed for decomposition and CO2 release?

Thanks


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

I have always used chlorinated tap water for all the soil preparation steps until it was time to fill the tank.


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## Chumley

When doing this mineralization procedure, are you not in effect killing off benificial bacteria and losing the co2 release from decomposition ? I just used soil that I had spread out in a 20 gallon for over a year and I believe it became what was described earlier in this thread as a humic substance. It was very dry and clumpy and when breaking it up, it felt like sand.

The tank I used this soil in worked out nicely. I used a quarter inch of sand to cap it and when planting the cap pretty much became a mix of sand/dirt. After swapping water for a bit to get out dirt clumps it only took a few minutes for everything to settle and has been crystal clear ever since for about two weeks.

I have been doing alot of reading trying to decide on what to use for a substrate in a planted tank, not wanting to deal with the problems brought with fresh dirt. Here is another useful procedure.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/3010-the-use-of-soil-in-planted-tanks-for-non-CO2-CO2-and-Excel-dosed-tanks?highlight=sand


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## Michael

I don't know if anyone has done a real study to see if any of the terrestrial bacteria in the soil before it is mineralized survive in the finished aquarium. But the mineralization process definitely does not kill bacteria; in fact it creates a perfect environment for them: moist and oxygen-rich. "Mineralization" is a somewhat misleading term. What the process does is speed up the natural decomposition of organic material in the soil so that it becomes more stable and less likely to release excess ammonia into the water.

Yes, mineralization does decrease the CO2 released from the submerged, decaying organic matter. But this can be a good thing--too much CO2 generated in the substrate can create anaerobic conditions.

Tom Barr has a good point in your link. I like to mix the soil with a high CEC, non-nutritive substrate, like Turface, Safe-T-Sorb, or plain cat litter. Sand has no CEC. By using a high CEC subtrate mixed with soil, you increase the ability to hold nutrients in the substrate and keep them out of the water column. This absorbs nutrients from the organic matter in the soil when the tank is new, and absorbs nutrients from the water as the tank matures.


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## trl_21

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I think I will stick with the basic soil/kitty litter mix but perhaps let the soil air out a little prior to use in order to accelerate decomposition.


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## Jane in Upton

Hey Tom,

I just noticed you've been here on this thread... excellent.

If you do use some kitty litter mixed into the soil layer, be sure it it clay based, and does NOT have all the perfumes, dyes, sparkle-crystals or whatever other weird stuff is in kitty litter these days. 

Many (MANY!) years ago, I had some good success with "kitty litter tanks" - straight clay kitty litter (Hartz pH 5.5 was the preferred brand back then) with slow release fertilizers under a tight fine grained sand cap. But nowadays, there are kitty litters made out of wheat (the one we use, actually) and ground up walnut shells (what our cat's foster used, and we used until we transitioned him to the wheat product), and all sorts of "crytals" and "odor absorbers" and whatnot.

Straight clay kitty litter can become very soft over time. The products like Turface are clay which has been heated (think pottery fired at high temperature to become greenware) so it is locked into its shape, and is rigid. This will retain a lot more pockets in its structure, and will resist compaction more effectively. I'd tend to think the benefits of using a fired product like Turface would be stronger.

*sigh*, even Kitty Litter is a very changed thing these days. Just get some without any additives, if you go with KL. On the plus side, its usually the cheapest one out there.

-Jane


----------



## Jane in Upton

Oh,

and definitely let the soil air out! I'm a firm believer in this one. Even doing one wet/dry cycle is very beneficial, and while not doing the whole MTS process, it will allow the initial flush of ammonia to off-gas and greatly help the stabilization.

And yes, the MTS method is relying on those bacteria! They're certainly not killed off. But you'll probably have a different population than with the "raw" soil.

-Jane


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## Michael

Jane, I love your signature!


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## trl_21

Hi Jane.

Having done some further research I have decided against the kitty litter due to its tendency to soften as you mention. It is also very difficult to track down unperfumed plain clay litter in the UK and I don't fancy having to rinse the perfume out of perfumed types. I would love to use a product like Turface but I am setting this tank up on a very small budget so I am hoping to wing it on soil alone!

Airing the soil seems like a sensible step to take and this should be easy enough for me to do indoors with the soil in the tank (it would take forever to dry outside given the weather here at the moment!).

Tom


----------



## WetWeed

*OK Gang:
Here's what furrows my brow -- post #1 of this thread features a quote from page 132 of

Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Then on post #2 a suggestion is made for mixing potting

soil with laterite, Flourite, etc. Yet if we go back to that same page 132 of EPA, we find a

section on metal toxicity problems in which Walstad gives a first-hand report of a tank that

failed. Her theory: the acidity of the potting soil solubilized too much iron from the laterite

she'd mixed it with.

Then there's the testimonials in this thread of folks who've tried the mixture and

succeeded. So...do I or don't I? Only asking because I'm about to set up the first public

(non-basement) tank in our home since moving here in 1988, I already own a bag of

Flourite, and I'd like to use it if it's not a mistake.*


----------



## Michael

WetWeed, welcome to APC!

What is your water chemistry like? If it is soft and has low pH, then you might develop acidic conditions in the substrate. If your water is hard (especially carbonate hardness) and the pH is above neutral, then it is probably well buffered and the substrate is unlikely to become strongly acidic.

What type of soil are you going to use? If it is a natural top soil with relatively low amounts of organic matter, there should not be a problem. If you are using one of the rich, highly organic potting soils, then I suggest you prepare it first.

You can add dolomite, argonite (sp?), or ground oyster shell to the substrate to keep the pH higher. This is well described in the mineralized soil threads in the Library.

You could also use the Flourite as a cap rather than mixing it with the soil. Then it is unlikely to be exposed to strongly acidic conditions.


----------



## BruceF

I was looking at a bag of bonsai soil today. It was something like....sand, lava rock, compost, green sand and I forget what not. I was wondering if anyone hasd an opinion on this stuff?


----------



## Michael

Bruce, do you remember if the mix had any Akadama clay in it? I grow bonsai, but don't use any commercial mixes. My own mix is very similar to what I use in my aquaria, but I don't mineralize or otherwise prepare it for bonsai.


----------



## BruceF

For some reason I think they are not importing Akadama anymore. It wasn't on the list, I do remember that. 

I spent some time with one of the local bonsai experts a few years ago. He uses Turface!


----------



## Michael

Turface is great for bonsai--one of my favorite mixes is half Turface and half compost. Unfortunately it is really hard to get here in hobbyist quantities.

After some good results with a few trees last year, this year my mix is 1/3 compost, 1/3 sand, and 1/3 Safe-T-Sorb. Functionally, I think STS is very close to akadama.


----------



## BruceF

I've been wanting to set up a 10g recently I may just buy a bag and try it out. I think the potting soil is causing me problems in terms of some fluffy litter. I haven't been pre-soaking it. Since the ground is still frozen I can't use dirt right now.


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## WoodberryKitchen

hi! I am a just-starting-out newbie with a 29gal and I'm so stoked that this forum exists.

I currently have a bunch of MGOC sitting in water on my porch, with two water changes so far. It's basically a pile of sludge at the bottom of the container.

My questions are these...

- Do I need to "dry" it somehow after I'm done with water changes? (Someone talked about squeezing it w/paper towel. Necessary?)
- Earlier someone had mentioned mixing plain kitty litter with the processed MGOC; I am planning to go this route as I cannot figure out how to access TurFace or SafeTSorb in my 'hood. This is okay, right? 1:1?
- The visuals I've seen have all talked about mixing crushed oyster shells with the substrate before topping with gravel. you'd think that living on the Chesapeake I'd have hella access to crushed oyster shells but I can't find any. Is this component necessary? If so, where do people get oyster shells? Are there acceptable substitutes?

Thank you very much!!!

David


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## Michael

Hi David, and welcome to APC! See my responses below.



WoodberryKitchen said:


> hi! I am a just-starting-out newbie with a 29gal and I'm so stoked that this forum exists.
> 
> I currently have a bunch of MGOC sitting in water on my porch, with two water changes so far. It's basically a pile of sludge at the bottom of the container.*Sounds typical.*
> 
> My questions are these...
> 
> - Do I need to "dry" it somehow after I'm done with water changes? (Someone talked about squeezing it w/paper towel. Necessary?)
> 
> *Not necessary. Drying is part of the mineralization process so the the organic matter is is both moist and exposed to lots of oxygen, but you don't need to do it if you are using the soak-and-drain method only. Some people dry the soil to make it easier to handle, but if you mix your wet sludge with kitty litter it will dry a lot and be easy to handle.*
> 
> - Earlier someone had mentioned mixing plain kitty litter with the processed MGOC; I am planning to go this route as I cannot figure out how to access TurFace or SafeTSorb in my 'hood. This is okay, right? 1:1?
> 
> *Yes. just be sure that the kitty litter you use is a plain clay product, with no perfumes, clumping agents, anti-microbials, "magic odor-eating crystals", etc. Kitty litter does break down to a mud-like consistency over time, but this is not a problem with an adequate cap. Some people who do a lot of rearranging do not like kitty litter because of this.*
> 
> - The visuals I've seen have all talked about mixing crushed oyster shells with the substrate before topping with gravel. you'd think that living on the Chesapeake I'd have hella access to crushed oyster shells but I can't find any. Is this component necessary? If so, where do people get oyster shells? Are there acceptable substitutes?
> 
> *What is your water like? If it is hard, with an alkaline pH, then you do not need oyster shell, dolomite, coral sand, etc. The purpose of these is to buffer pH and keep it from falling too low. Usually this is a problem only if the water is soft and/or acid.*
> 
> Thank you very much!!!
> 
> David


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## Hoa

I can't find the MGOC mix at my local Home Depot in San Diego, but I found an "Earthgro - The Natural Choice" Topsoil with a list of ingredients as "regionally formulated from organic and inorganic materials including one or more of the following: peat, forest products, ash, sand or native topsoil." Do you think this will work as the bottom layer? Since it may have sand or topsoil in it, I won't have to mix any sand in, right? Should I still go through the "mineralization" process? Thanks.


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## Michael

Yes, it will work. This is what most people mean when they say "cheap bagged topsoil". It still has more organic matter than most natural topsoils, so soak and drain or mineralize it first.


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## kareen

If you add Turface or Safe-T-Sorb to your soil Does this add Iorn or do you need to still put clay in for Iorn.


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## Hoa

One of Diana Walstad's claims for the benefits of her substrate is the continuous release of CO2 through the decomposition of the organic substrate. Wouldn't the "mineralization" do all this up front, in open air, and deny the plants of the benefits of the CO2 later?


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## Michael

It is a matter of degree. Walstad rarely uses highly organic soils in her tanks; more typically she uses natural topsoil which has a relatively low percentage of organic matter. Mineralization will not remove all of the organic matter from a highly organic soil, but will reduce the amount of quick decomposition in the tank.

Think of it this way--it's better to release moderate amounts of CO2 over a long period than large amounts of CO2 when the tank is new and unstable.


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## Michael

It is a matter of degree. Walstad rarely uses highly organic soils in her tanks; more typically she uses natural topsoil which has a relatively low percentage of organic matter. Mineralization will not remove all of the organic matter from a highly organic soil, but will reduce the amount of quick decomposition in the tank.

Think of it this way--it's better to release moderate amounts of CO2 over a long period than large amounts of CO2 when the tank is new and unstable.


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## mfskarphedin

Hi, I haven't set up my tank yet, but I wanted to add an interesting tidbit about MGOC in here first. I couldn't find any locally, plus I was turned off by having so much waste in large chunks to be removed. Then I found, in the basement, two bags of the stuff that have been there for a year or two. "Well, time to experiment a bit in a vase," I thought, and opened one bag. I found that it was still moist, and there were NO chunks at all in it! I don't know if it's that batch or if it composted in those years down there, but I have pre-prepared MGOC, yay! 

I thought maybe others might like to buy some bags and try keeping them in storage for the future, too!

BTW, might as well note that I plan to mix a little red clay into the MGOC and put a thin layer of mineralized soil/topsoil between it and the cap. I've had a dirted tank before, and I think that might fix the problem of organic matter puffing up every time I disturb the dirt layer. Using MTSs again will keep it from compacting. Now to figure out what I want to cap it with... 

Wish me luck!


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## Hoa

My 55-gallon tank has been up for about 3 weeks now. I used about 1.5" of the Earthgro Topsoil. I tried to "mineralize" it first, but I don't think it went all the way through that process. I soaked and dried it out 3 times over a week. (What is the appropriate length of the mineralization process?) I capped it with about 1.5" of Mexican Beach Pebbles (~2mm grain size) found at a local builders supply store. The water is pretty brown from the tannin, but has been clearing slowly with 25% water changes every 2 days or so.

I planted it with Corkscrew Val, Anacharis, Amazon sword, Anubias nana, Cryptocorynne wendtii, Cryptocoryne lutea, Java Fern (tied to driftwood and rocks), Hornwort and duckweed (floating on the surface), and a stem of Pothos grown emergent. Had 51 W of T8 light at first, but just added another 30W yesterday, for 1.5W/gallon. Animals include snails, ghost shrimps, 4 black mollies (for surface skimming), and 3 female bettas. Had 8 zebra danios also but they all died within a couple of weeks. Amonia is hovering at about 0.3 ppm, nitrite 0 (after a spike about 2 weeks in, where both were about 2 ppm).

My question is about the substrate decomposition. It is bubbling occasionally, with that foul H2S smell. Is this normal for a while with NPTs? Should I continue to keep adding plants and the roots will eventually aerate the substrate? Or is the substrate so anaerobic now that any plant I stick in will die? What else should I do? Thanks.


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## Michael

How are the existing plants doing? Are they growing new leaves and rooting into the substrate well? If the substrate is dangerously anaerobic, you will usually see dark, rotting roots and the plants will float up out of the substrate because the roots have died.

If the roots look good and the plants are firmly attached to the substrate, then you are still OK. Try gently poking the substrate with a stick to release the bubbles. Any new plants should be species that have strong root systems--your swords, vals, and cryptocorynes all do.

Ammonia should be at zero, so be aggressive with your water changes. Good luck!


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## Hoa

Looks like my floating plants are doing fine, but most if not all of my rooted plants are dying. I have lost 2 crypts so far, and the others are wilting also. I pulled up the val and the longest roots are black. I made an aerator out of a wire coat hanger and am poking at the substrate about twice a day to release the H2S bubbles, but am not sure if it's helping. Has anyone had this and still was able to turn it around, or is it time to tear down the tank and start over?


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## Chumley

> When doing this mineralization procedure, are you not in effect killing off benificial bacteria and losing the co2 release from decomposition ? I just used soil that I had spread out in a 20 gallon for over a year and I believe it became what was described earlier in this thread as a humic substance. It was very dry and clumpy and when breaking it up, it felt like sand.
> 
> The tank I used this soil in worked out nicely. I used a quarter inch of sand to cap it and when planting the cap pretty much became a mix of sand/dirt. After swapping water for a bit to get out dirt clumps it only took a few minutes for everything to settle and has been crystal clear ever since for about two weeks.
> 
> I have been doing alot of reading trying to decide on what to use for a substrate in a planted tank, not wanting to deal with the problems brought with fresh dirt. Here is another useful procedure.
> http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...highlight=sand





> I don't know if anyone has done a real study to see if any of the terrestrial bacteria in the soil before it is mineralized survive in the finished aquarium. But the mineralization process definitely does not kill bacteria; in fact it creates a perfect environment for them: moist and oxygen-rich. "Mineralization" is a somewhat misleading term. What the process does is speed up the natural decomposition of organic material in the soil so that it becomes more stable and less likely to release excess ammonia into the water.
> 
> Yes, mineralization does decrease the CO2 released from the submerged, decaying organic matter. But this can be a good thing--too much CO2 generated in the substrate can create anaerobic conditions.
> 
> Tom Barr has a good point in your link. I like to mix the soil with a high CEC, non-nutritive substrate, like Turface, Safe-T-Sorb, or plain cat litter. Sand has no CEC. By using a high CEC subtrate mixed with soil, you increase the ability to hold nutrients in the substrate and keep them out of the water column. This absorbs nutrients from the organic matter in the soil when the tank is new, and absorbs nutrients from the water as the tank matures.


I just want to follow up to promote this method after experimenting with it abit. Alot of the threads I look into in this forum section, people are having soil problems. Mineralize the soil ! Then mix it with something like sand or whatever your using to cap the soil with. Recently in my 40 gallon I pulled 4 stems with big roots. Clouds of lower substrate came up but cleared in no time. Another time I did a major rescaping but followed up 50 % water change. No mess at all after doing the water change.
I did : 50/50 sand/dirt which came out to about 2 inches deep all the way across then capped with eco-complete using a slope of about one inch at the front and 2 inches at the back. I do get some gas build up but once a week along with other maintenance I jab throughout the substrate with some scissors to let out the gas.


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## Michael

Hoa said:


> Looks like my floating plants are doing fine, but most if not all of my rooted plants are dying. I have lost 2 crypts so far, and the others are wilting also. I pulled up the val and the longest roots are black. I made an aerator out of a wire coat hanger and am poking at the substrate about twice a day to release the H2S bubbles, but am not sure if it's helping. Has anyone had this and still was able to turn it around, or is it time to tear down the tank and start over?


Are you sure the crypts are dead? Most crypts will "melt" when first transplanted--lose their leaves then grow new ones. Vals sometimes do the same thing. When you pulled the val, did most of the roots look good with only a few long ones black at the tip? If so, that is a good sign.

Since the tank is only 3 weeks old, I would keep poking the substrate, doing frequent water changes, and keep lots of floating plants in the tank. If it isn't better in a month, they you may need drastic action.


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## mfskarphedin

Hoa said:


> Looks like my floating plants are doing fine, but most if not all of my rooted plants are dying. I have lost 2 crypts so far, and the others are wilting also. I pulled up the val and the longest roots are black. I made an aerator out of a wire coat hanger and am poking at the substrate about twice a day to release the H2S bubbles, but am not sure if it's helping. Has anyone had this and still was able to turn it around, or is it time to tear down the tank and start over?


Whether the plants are dead or not, i'd get a butt-load of MTSs asap to do the job for you 24/7. When i plant, less than 1/3 will be Miracle Grow. I used plain dirt in my last tank with MTSs, and it worked fine.


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## Michael

MTS = Malayan trumpet snails. These burrow in the substrate and help to prevent and correct anaerobic substrate, but they can't tolerate much H2S.


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## Hoa

Chumley said:


> Alot of the threads I look into in this forum section, people are having soil problems. Mineralize the soil!


I tried mineralizing the soil, but I don't think it went all the way through. I did 3 cycles of soaking, draining, and drying, over a week, then ran out of patience. How long is the normal mineralization supposed to take?


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## Hoa

Michael said:


> MTS = Malayan trumpet snails. These burrow in the substrate and help to prevent and correct anaerobic substrate, but they can't tolerate much H2S.


Yes, I have used MTS before in my high-tech tank. But I think that any MTS I introduce now would probably die from the very anaerobic substrate.


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## atc84

I have a bag of 2 cubic ft of topsoil, and it seems like a lot of it is small bits of wood. Is the end soil supposed to be very fine?


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## Michael

The wood tends to float and leach tanins into the water. If you screen the soil, you will get all the big pieces. And if you soak the soil first, the wood will float and you can pour or skim it off when you change the water.


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## atc84

EDIT: It is actually potting soil. I cant find anywhere saying if it has addictive pesticides etc, but the analysis is at:
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=3273

What i see in the bag is mostly a peat like soil. Would this be ok?

I can't find any clay at my local stores  If i mineralize my soil to reduce the organic material would that be fine?


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## jounin

hi guys, I currently reside in a country where just about all of the soils you guys mentioned are not available. However I have managed to find one organic soil thats made of up 60-70% peat moss (please see link http://www.superiorgrowers.com/pro-mix-ultimate-org-mix-1cf-o.html). I am wondering if I could use this soil for my NPT. Thanks


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## Michael

Jounin, I recommend that you do not use this soil for two reasons:

1. Perlite floats like tiny styrofoam balls and will drive you crazy.
2. It is hard to tell from the description, but it may have excess nutrients that cause ammonia spikes and algae problels in new tanks. 

Can you find any natural topsoil or garden soil that has not been fertilized?


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## jounin

ok thank you michael... I am trying to find some but its really difficult, guess ill just have to keep looking.


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## TonyVideo

I thought I would try and set up a 10gal. tank and like the info on this post. I am doing the Miracle Gro Organic and in the process of rinsing/report to get the floaters out and thin it out. I am than going to mix it with SafeTSorb 50/50. My next thought is to take Eco-Complete from my main 125g tank and mix it in about 5% This would be the fine sand from the bottom as this would add iron, calcium, magnesium, etc. This can be used until the fish food etc. process starts breaking down and infiltrating the substrate. Also using Eco-Complete from my main tank would also introduce bacteria for cycling immediately. I would also cap with Eco Complete from my top layer of my main tank.

Any thoughts?


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## Carl_L

Hello I am in the UK and for some reason I cant find a retailer that sells Miracle Grow organic potting mix. Does anyone know where I can get this, is it marketed under a different name in the UK? If it is not available what alternatives are people from the UK using with success?

Thanks for any replys Carl.


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## Michael

Welcome to APC! I don't think Miracle Grow is sold in the UK, but I believe our members there have used John Innes #3. Try doing a search for that name to read their experiences.


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## turtlepower129

I am using MGOCPM. On page 131 of 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium' table VIII-2 tells about the advantage of having the soil submerged for up to 6 weeks. I am going to soak and drain to get rid of the floaters etc. Since I have a lot of time before I plant should I soak and drain for 4 - 6 weeks? I have the option of doing this process outside in the sun and heat or inside in a cool dark bathroom. Which place would be better? I also have an issue with my well water. The pH is 8.2 and the GH is >18 (by a lot I think). Will this water be suitable to soak and drain with? (I plan to mix the well water 50/50 with RO water in my tank but I don't want to have to do it to soak and drain the soil.)


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Since you have time and space, I suggest you mineralize the MGOC. Basically, soak it, drain it, spread it out thin on a tray or tarp, let it dry, then repeat. Do this outside in the sun. The result will be a thoroughly decomposed soil that is less likely to color the water with tannins or cause an ammonia spike.

There is a great article on mineralizing soil in the Library, and also an "infographic".


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## turtlepower129

I have plenty of time but I don't have any space to spread it out and dry it.  I know it wouldn't take all that much space to do but there is no way to convince the people I live with that. I can get away with having a 5 gallon bucket outside for a while but not having dirt spread out on a tarp behind the townhouse.


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## turtlepower129

I read Aaron Talbot's article on how to mineralize top soil. I am using potting soil. He says not to use potting soil for his method. He uses potter's clay and dolomite and muriate of potash. His method doesn't seem to fit my situation at all. I simply want to use MGOCPM mixed 50/50 with pure clay cat litter and I have very hard water. I already have these items. Will it benefit me to soak and drain my potting mix for several weeks to avoid an ammonia spike in the first month? It seems to make sense to me that it would but I don't want to cause a different problem that I don't know about by doing this. This will be my first planted tank and I am trying to do everything I can to make it a success. I have read 'Ecology of the planted Aquarium' two times and I have read this sticky on soils a few times and I have done countless hours of research and I haven't found anything that addresses soaking potting soil for a long time before using it to avoid an ammonia spike. I don't have any room to spread out my soil to dry it on a tarp because of where I live. If no one has tried this before then I will be sure to post the results here after I grow a tank full of plants.


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## Michael

Soaking and draining the MGOC over several will definitely help a lot. And it is a great idea to mix it with cat litter. The cat litter has high CEC which will absorb any excess nutrients from the soil and hold them until the plant roots can use them.

Your hard water will likely take care of calcium requirements, so you don't need dolomite. Muriate of potash adds potasium, which may also be in hard water. If you need more potasium later, you can use salt replacer sold in grocery stores for people on low salt diets.

Your plan is good--go for it!


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## BruceF

Speaking of soaking miracle grow potting soil, I have been trying simply to wet some this morning in order to make a little grow out tub for the yard. (I am using a cement mixing tray and covering it with a film of plastic.) After about three hours most of it is still floating and parts of it are still dry as a bone.


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## dwalstad

Michael said:


> I will start the discussion in the next post. But the only way that this thread can become really useful is if you post your knowledge, experience, and questions too!


Michael, you should get a medal for doing this. Thanks!

One thing hobbyists should be aware of is that there is no perfect soil. Moreover, one that isn't perfect may turn out just fine in the long run. I started out with plenty of over-fertilized soils containing white balls, pieces of wood that eventually did very well. The trick is understanding submerged soils and knowing how to address potential problems.

Even if you find the "perfect soil", if you bury it under 3 inches of gravel or sand, it may go anaerobic and kill plants. (This is especially true of the organic soils.) If you mix a peat moss-containing soil (acidic) with clay, it may leach toxic amounts of iron or aluminum into the soil solution and kill plants. Then, *all soils* are unstable the first 8 weeks, leaching lots of nutrients, tannins, etc into the water. During this time an organic soil will pull so much oxygen out the water, it may endanger fish. The soils that work well in High Tech tanks will not do as well in NPTs (these mineral soils just don't have enough organic matter to provide natural CO2).

My book's website has an article on setting up 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp'. 
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm

Article can be downloaded free from the website. I recommend that hobbyists who are wringing their hands over soils try a small planted bowl or small tank such as described in the article. There's nothing like a pilot experiment to learn what works for *your* water, lighting, and plant species. (Caveat, I wouldn't start an unheated bowl in the winter when room temperatures are too cold for good plant growth).


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## Michael

Wow! I am honored!

My re-entry to the hobby after a 30 year absence was two planted shrimp bowls, set up from the directions on your website. I learned so much from those two gallons of water, it gave me the confidence to set up my first successful planted aquarium. All of my subsequent pleasure in the hobby goes back to those two planted bowls, and your book.


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## turtlepower129

Thanks Diana for posting here. The info about the clay is a mistake I was about to make. I have been soaking my soil and will have soaked it for 1 month before using it in my tank. I will update here if there is any good news about doing that. (mainly the ammonia problems I hear of.) If you read this Diana I am really looking forward to you visiting our club in Indianapolis in November. I almost waited to start my tank until then but I can't help myself wanting to do it sooner.


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## MoonshineIT

BruceF said:


> Speaking of soaking miracle grow potting soil, I have been trying simply to wet some this morning in order to make a little grow out tub for the yard. (I am using a cement mixing tray and covering it with a film of plastic.) After about three hours most of it is still floating and parts of it are still dry as a bone.


I've been soaking my mgocpm for about 16 hours now, and mine is in a very similar condition. I've got it in a 30 gallon trash can outside. There are about 3" of material floating on the surface, about 1-1/2" to 2" has sunk to the bottom, and about a 6" layer of water in between. I stirred it quite thoroughly when I first started, then let it sit overnight, and have stirred it a couple of times so far today to see if I could get anything more to sink. Is this normal?


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## Michael

Yes. It will not hurt anything to let it sit overnight again. Some more of the woody chunks may become water-logged and sink.

But then you will need to pour off the floating stuff. Tip the container gently on its side, and slowly pour out the surface layer of floaters. Continue pouring until you just begin to get some of the sinking soil at the bottom. Then stop pouring and refill with water. Repeat every day for at least three times.


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## dwalstad

MoonshineIT said:


> I've been soaking my mgocpm for about 16 hours now, and mine is in a very similar condition. I've got it in a 30 gallon trash can outside. There are about 3" of material floating on the surface, about 1-1/2" to 2" has sunk to the bottom, and about a 6" layer of water in between. I stirred it quite thoroughly when I first started, then let it sit overnight, and have stirred it a couple of times so far today to see if I could get anything more to sink. Is this normal?


I think letting MGOC stuff float on the surface won't get the gas out efficiently. You need to somehow hold the soil underwater and let the weight of the water and the increased water pressure *squeeze* the gases out. If you just let the soil float on the surface, it will take forever for it to degas.

In my tank setups, I degas the soil automatically when I put a 1" gravel layer over the 1" layer of wetted MGOC. The gravel holds the soil down as I *slowly and carefully * fill the tank with water. After that, the weight of the gravel and the water helps force the gas out of the soil so that the soil quickly degasses and does not float.

Another possible solution -- one I may try next time -- is to add the soil to the tank, wet it as usual, and then cover it with something heavy (i.e., rocks, dinner plates, casserole dishes, etc). Let it sit overnight and then add the plants and gravel.

I hope this makes sense.


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## dwalstad

turtlepower129 said:


> Thanks Diana for posting here. The info about the clay is a mistake I was about to make. I have been soaking my soil and will have soaked it for 1 month before using it in my tank. I will update here if there is any good news about doing that. (mainly the ammonia problems I hear of.) If you read this Diana I am really looking forward to you visiting our club in Indianapolis in November. I almost waited to start my tank until then but I can't help myself wanting to do it sooner.


I understand the desire to get a tank going. Ha!

Look forward to visiting your club and meeting the members. Maybe, I should offer to do a quick planted tank setup while I'm there?


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## MoonshineIT

dwalstad said:


> I think letting MGOC stuff float on the surface won't get the gas out efficiently. You need to somehow hold the soil underwater and let the weight of the water and the increased water pressure *squeeze* the gases out. If you just let the soil float on the surface, it will take forever for it to degas.
> 
> In my tank setups, I degas the soil automatically when I put a 1" gravel layer over the 1" layer of wetted MGOC. The gravel holds the soil down as I *slowly and carefully * fill the tank with water. After that, the weight of the gravel and the water helps force the gas out of the soil so that the soil quickly degasses and does not float.
> 
> Another possible solution -- one I may try next time -- is to add the soil to the tank, wet it as usual, and then cover it with something heavy (i.e., rocks, dinner plates, casserole dishes, etc). Let it sit overnight and then add the plants and gravel.
> 
> I hope this makes sense.


Thanks Diana. I don't think I've seen anyone in this or other forums mention a situation where nearly 75% of their mgoc never sank (now for about 40 hrs of soaking in my case), and I was starting to worry I might not get much of anything useful out of this bag. I'll try to find something with which to hold it under the water and post my results.


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## owenj

Thank you so much for sticking with this thread Michael!

I'm preparing to start up an NPT (been a few years since my last one) & was looking at this "humus" potting soil http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JLEDQ0/ref=s9_simh_gw_p86_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1PDHC268QQNJVZ5YRW1V&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846 & would appreciate your thoughts on its suitability. I'd probably blend with either laterite or some of the Caribsea Torpedo Beach sand I'm planning to use as a cap.


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## Michael

You're welcome!

I don't know how much bat guano they put in this soil, but that stuff is *HOT!* It approaches synthetic fertilizers in nutrient level. Be extremely cautious with this stuff. Honestly, I think you would be much better off with something like a plain bagged topsoil. And it would be much less expensive.


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## turtlepower129

dwalstad said:


> I understand the desire to get a tank going. Ha!
> 
> Look forward to visiting your club and meeting the members. Maybe, I should offer to do a quick planted tank setup while I'm there?


I'm sure whatever you decide to do will be interesting to me. I would like to hear more on allelopathy and how plants get their nutrients without adding chemical fertilizer. There is so little information that I can find on those subjects.
For instance I am still unsure if my water is going to supply my tank with enough K. The water I will use has K but the ph is 8.2 so I will have to mix it with RO to get the ph down. It's very confusing for a layman to understand how to interpret well water reports such as K levels in ppm to numbers that I can use to determine if it will be sufficient without adding K.

So I don't hijack the sticky let me add some to the topic. I have had my MGOCPM soaking for 10 days now with one water change. It took several days for a noticeable amount to stop floating that I couldn't even think about pouring off the floaters after even 3 days. Maybe I have a very fresh bag. I am glad I decided to start soaking it ahead of time because it seem to be very hard to get wet.
I also remember in Walstad's book that well decomposed soil should be used. Those of us using MGOCPM are stuck with whatever is in the bag we buy. I hope soaking my soil helps in this aspect as well since I don't have room to wet then dry to speed decomposition.


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## owenj

Michael said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> I don't know how much bat guano they put in this soil, but that stuff is *HOT!* It approaches synthetic fertilizers in nutrient level. Be extremely cautious with this stuff. Honestly, I think you would be much better off with something like a plain bagged topsoil. And it would be much less expensive.


Good to know on the guano. Hard to find plain topsoil in less than a giant bag, unless we're talking "potting soil," but I'll mosey on over to my local Home Depot or something & check it out.


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## MoonshineIT

I have now been soaking my mgocpm for just over a week, and some of it is finally starting to sink. So far about 40% of it is sitting on the bottom while the rest is still quite buoyant. There's still too much material at the top to try to pour of the water. I haven't been able to find anything quite the right diameter to set on top of the floating material so I can weigh it down like Diana suggested. My next idea was to try to skim it off and put it in some sort of a cloth bag to which I could tie a weight.


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## Michael

Unless your budget is really tight, I suggest you just throw out the floaters.


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## MoonshineIT

Michael said:


> Unless your budget is really tight, I suggest you just throw out the floaters.


I guess I'm just a little shocked that my experience seems so different from everyone else's. Unless I'm wrong, isn't the less decayed material supposed to decompose more slowly to keep the co2 cycle going stronger longer. I would think there would be some benefit to having organic material in a lot of different stages of decomposition to start out with to keep the tank going longer down the road. Or is the bottom layer supposed to be used up completely fairly quickly and the ongoing cycle perpetuated only by the fish waste and unconsumed food?


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## SBS

A lot of organics is a problem in any tank. Hence why we siphon the substrate regularly in an unplanted tank and clean the filters. It's all done to prevent organic build up. In a planted tank organics have their benefits being the source of CO2 and minerals, as long as there's an overall balance between amount of organic build up in the soil and flora/fauna choices to cope/process with that amount.

Mineralizing the substrate only converts some of the organics into non-toxic minerals but does not get rid of all of it. This prevents possible excess stuff being released into the water column when flooding the soil, affecting the fauna. Excessive organics and not enough plants can also cause the substrate to become anaerobic leading to release of all types of toxins that can kill both plants and animals.

The other good part of mineralizing the soil is that the wet/dry cycles help wash out any possible artificial chemicals that the soil may contain.

Also, those floating wooden chips and stuff aren't helpful at all. They won't decompose any faster than the driftwood/bogwood one uses for decoration. As Michael says, they are best thrown out.


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## MoonshineIT

And yet there seems to be a whole host of people using mgocpm ( I think even Diana herself at times) straight out of the bag with just a slightly longer stabilization time but excellent long term results. So who's right?

According to the information in this thread (and the definition of the word itself) anaerobic conditions are caused by the absence of oxygen in the decomposition environment, not the presence of organics. That's more related to substrate depth than ingredients. Even the driftwood will eventually break down completely, but the small pieces of floating wood in the potting mix will break down more quickly because they're much smaller.

I've also seen journals of numerous tanks that started with fully mineralized soil using recipes found on this and other sites that had some success in the beginning but ultimately had to be torn down prematurely or converted to high tech because the soil had became basically worthless. At least a couple of the people who experienced this ended up deciding to stick with mgocpm straight out of the bag.

I'd really like to hear from people who have real world experience on both sides of this discussion, because a lot of what I've read seems somewhat contradictory.


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## Michael

OK, I've used MGOC straight out of the bag and had good results. But my preference now is to mineralize it and mix it with a high CEC substrate for the reasons given elsewhere in this thread.

Everyone is right--either way can work.

"According to the information in this thread (and the definition of the word itself) anaerobic conditions are caused by the absence of oxygen in the decomposition environment, not the presence of organics." 

Fresh, abundant organics are rapidly decomposed by aerobic (oxygen-loving) bacteria at first. But those very bacteria can deplete all the available oxygen in the substrate, especially if it is too deep or the cap is too fine or compacted, but even if conditions are otherwise correct. (This eventually happened in my first straight-from-the-bag MGOC tank.) After the aerobic bacteria die off, decomposition continues by anaerobic bacteria, albeit more slowly. Those anaerobic bacteria produce the toxic substances (hydrogen sulfide and others) that are the reason anaerobic substrate is undesirable.

". . .but ultimately had to be torn down prematurely or converted to high tech because the soil had became basically worthless."

Soil never becomes worthless. Even after all the organics are completely decomposed and all the initial nutrients are depleted, the remaining humus and clay minerals retain their high cation exchange capacity (CEC). CEC enables them to absorb nutrients from the water and hold them in the substrate until plant roots can use them. At some point the nutrients must be replenished, but Walstad has shown that fish food can supply all the necessary nutrients for tanks without CO2 supplementation and with low to moderate light.

Tanks can fail for many reasons. If you decide to maintain a soil-based tank with high light and supplemental CO2, eventually it will be likely to need supplemental nutrients as well.


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## MoonshineIT

> OK, I've used MGOC straight out of the bag and had good results. But my preference now is to mineralize it and mix it with a high CEC substrate for the reasons given elsewhere in this thread.


It has always been my plan to mix my mgocpm 50/50 with STS and cap it with STS for the reasons you've stated previously whether I ultimately ended up putting it through a complicated preparation process or used it dry. Of course I did end up soaking it, and now have basically nothing to show for it. Once all the floaters were skimmed off (which I did just before posting this), I only have enough soil left for maybe a half inch layer in my 24" by 24" tank out of a 32 lb bag. Unless my next bag is totally different, I'm going to end up needing two to three more bags to come up with enough material.



> Fresh, abundant organics are rapidly decomposed by aerobic (oxygen-loving) bacteria at first. But those very bacteria can deplete all the available oxygen in the substrate, especially if it is too deep or the cap is too fine or compacted, but even if conditions are otherwise correct. (This eventually happened in my first straight-from-the-bag MGOC tank.) After the aerobic bacteria die off, decomposition continues by anaerobic bacteria, albeit more slowly. Those anaerobic bacteria produce the toxic substances (hydrogen sulfide and others) that are the reason anaerobic substrate is undesirable.


But is this effect exacerbated by the presence of more slowly decomposing organics such as tiny pieces of tree bark in the substrate? And what impact do pieces of driftwood in the hardscape have on this? Would it be better for driftwood to sit on the bottom glass with the substrate poured in around it, or should it rest on top of the substrate to prevent it from contributing to anaerobic decomposition?



> Soil never becomes worthless. Even after all the organics are completely decomposed and all the initial nutrients are depleted, the remaining humus and clay minerals retain their high cation exchange capacity (CEC).





> Tanks can fail for many reasons. If you decide to maintain a soil-based tank with high light and supplemental CO2, eventually it will be likely to need supplemental nutrients as well.


I suppose these people could have all fallen victim to misinterpretation of circumstances, but it seems like the only people who ever end up satisfied with the long term results all those overly complicated mineralized topsoil recipes are the people who came up with them in the first place.


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## Michael

I did not invent mineralized topsoil, but I've had very good results with it. Have you used it?


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## MoonshineIT

I haven't used anything yet. This is my first planted tank, much less my first NPT. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can from the experiences of others; so I've read literally hundreds of threads on dozens of sites trying to be as informed as I can be. I don't have the time or money or space to experiment over and over until I find what works. I'm just hoping my first gamble pays off by carefully hedging my bets so to speak.

As you've mentioned in the past, you have access to "high-quality homemade compost from a neighbor" which you mineralized, but I don't remember if you said by what method. Did you add pottery clay, dolomite, muriate of potash and so on like the Aaron Talbot method, or did you just soak and dry it a few times? Just like "MTS" has been used (in this thread alone) to refer to both mineralized topsoil or Malaysian Trumpet Snails, the term "mineralized topsoil" seems to have several meanings as well.

At my local Home Depot and Lowes, the only "generic topsoil" that was available contained cow manure. The only options I could find that seemed like possibilities were MGOCPM and Scott's Premium Topsoil. I picked the MGOCPM because there seemed to be the most information regarding it's use. However, most of that information seems to not apply to what's available where I live because my bag was almost completely wood chips and tree bark. Perhaps it should have been labeled "fine mulch" rather than potting mix.


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## SBS

> According to the information in this thread (and the definition of the word itself) anaerobic conditions are caused by the absence of oxygen in the decomposition environment, not the presence of organics


I'll break down your statement further



> absence of oxygen in the *decomposition* environment


Your statement is quite contradictory. When you say decomposition enviroment please note that this means where organics are present  So the presence of organics is the reason there is decomposition enviroment and aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to go along with it depending on the presence/absence of oxygen.

To explain my point in my previous post, organics is fish poop, fish food, dead plants, dead roots, dead fish, etc..These accumulate over time in any substrate, filling the gaps where previously water used to flow in and out carrying that important thing called oxygen which aerobic bacteria uses...If one doesn't have enough plant roots to transport oxygen in such a substrate and prevent it from going anaerobic, then one siphons it to remove as much of that "mulm" as possible to make the substrate "breathe" again. Otherwise it will become anaerobic overtime.


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## SBS

And additionally, decomposition of organics causes ammonia. This may not happen gradually enough for the filters/plants to cope so one gets spikes which you may or may not detect unless you test a few times a day. 
If you start with a soil that is too rich on organics, you'll have too much ammonia which neither your plants, nor your fish will appreciate, especially if you start with uncycled filters, unhealthy plants/non-established plants/not enough plants/no fast growers. Combine that with too much light and it's an algae disaster. Algae causes unhealthy plants, dying plants, more organics and more ammonia, etc...You'll need to remove dying plants before you have enough plant mass to even handle the current bioload, being trapped in what will seem like a never ending circle. On top of it, the plants not being growing and smothered by algae means no good root systems and potentially the substrate going anaerobic at the same time further complicating the issue, until one either manages it somehow or just takes everything out and starts from scratch.

But yes, it can be done regardless of that, but one needs to be careful, observe the tank and monitor the water stats, and take action when needed depending on how it develops. Mineralized soil decreases the risk of anything like this happening, without taking away any benefits of an NPT tank in the long run. 

P.S. I do have a tank setup with mineralized top soil(Aaron Talbot method) and it's been doing great but I've had it only for a few months so I can't comment on long term results. I also setup another NPT tank recently with soil straight from the bag/unmineralized. Ask me next year


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## MoonshineIT

While your explanation does improve the accuracy of your original statement, I fail to see exactly where you point out a contradiction in my statement.

To break down my own statement:
It is a decomposition environment because of the presence of decomposing (non-living) organic (carbon based) material. It can be either aerobic (relating to, involving, or requiring free oxygen) or anaerobic (relating to, involving, or requiring an absence of free oxygen) because of the presence or absence of oxygen. You can also have an aerobic or anaerobic environment within living (non-decomposing) organic tissue but that would have no bearing on this conversation. The presence of aerobes (bacteria which require free oxygen in the production of energy) and anaerobes (bacteria which do not require free oxygen in the production of energy) in a decomposition environment is related to whether or not the environment is aerobic or anaerobic, but not in a linear cause and effect relationship.

But just because I'm in an argumentative mood doesn't mean I can't appreciate the fact that you just expanded your explanation very nicely and threw in some excellent first hand experience examples for which I am extremely grateful and which I think add to the efficacy of this thread immensely.


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## Michael

I am glad you recognize that you are being argumentative.


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## MoonshineIT

I really don't mean to be, but my job is stressing me out to the point of putting together my resume for the first time in over a decade, and aquaristics is my outlet. 

Nonetheless, I still feel like this whole subject could stand a whole lot more clarification and "fleshing out" with more examples of real world experiences from a lot more people in a lot more places. It's not that I have anything but the utmost respect for your opinion, Michael. However, at the end of the day it is just "one man's opinion," and I never take anything for granted. That's why you started this thread in the first place, isn't it?


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## SBS

> While your explanation does improve the accuracy of your original statement, I fail to see exactly where you point out a contradiction in my statement.


I'll try rephrasing myself again then.

I was talking about preventing anaerobic conditions in a fish tank specifically in relation to the creation of hydrogen sulfide and similar toxic substances that can be produced in such enviroment and are dangerous to both fish and plants. Of course there can be certain beneficial anaerobic bacteria as long as it's not the main substrate occupant as it can quickly overtake a tank and cause many problems(read what heterotrophic facultative bacteria does in a fish tank)

Hydrogen sulfide is a byproduct of *organics* and anaerobic bacteria in the presence of some form of sulfur, like sulfate which is abundant in water or comes via himan input of some sort. So in terms of "fish tanks", you can't have dangerous anaerobic processes without the presence of organics. Hence decomposition enviroment means decomposition of organics. Lack of oxygen causes anaerobic decomposition of organics and presence of oxygen causes aerobic decomposition of organics. So see?..., "organics" are needed in both scenarios. So your statement that


> anaerobic conditions are caused by the absence of oxygen in the decomposition environment, not the presence of organics


 can't be true because it implies presence/lack of organics is irrelevant. It's actually the major part in order to practically create


> decomposition enviroment


 If you were just trying to explain what anaerobic conditions are the following is enough


> anaerobic conditions are caused by the absence of oxygen


 because the rest of your statement can't be true when using those words.


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## MoonshineIT

Actually there are many examples of inorganic anaerobic environments where neither free oxygen nor carbon are present (living or decaying) such as outerspace. Now if I had used the word anoxic in place of anaerobic, you might be correct in saying my statement was a contradiction. Perhaps it would be more clear if I had said "anaerobic conditions are caused by the absence of oxygen in the decomposition environment, not merely the presence of organics." But even as I worded it, the statement is still valid since it is undeniable that you can have an aerobic decomposition environment, which of course proves that the presence of organics is not the determining factor in whether or not an environment is anaerobic.

At least some parts of this argument have served to alleviate the fact that there is so much contradictory, not well documented, and completely unfounded "information" regarding soil choices and preparation methods for naturally planted tanks, which is the point I was actually trying to make in the first place. You have made some excellent arguments in favor of mineralization.


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## SBS

Are we talking about outerspace or fish tanks? 



> But even as I worded it, the statement is still valid since it is undeniable that you can have an aerobic decomposition environment, which of course proves that the presence of organics is not the determining factor in whether or not an environment is anaerobic


You are creating new terms and speak in an "outerspace" language to prove your point. I'll narrow it down for you. Define "decomposition" in terms of microbiology for me please.

Here is a quick quote: "Decomposition(mainly by bacteria and fungi)is the chemical and physical processes during which *organic matter *is broken down and reduced to its original elements.

What does that make a decomposition enviroment?

And what is then an aerobic decomposition enviroment? It certainly isn't implying the lack or absence of organics so I don't see how you are using this term(aerobic decomposition enviroment) to explain


> that the presence of organics is not the determining factor in whether or not an environment is anaerobic


On another note, yes, anaerobic/aerobic conditions aren't necessarily related to organics but certain aerobic/anaerobic processes that happen in fish tanks are the result of the presence of organics.


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## MoonshineIT

> Are we talking about outerspace or fish tanks?


I was just making the point that there are aerobic and anaerobic conditions that have nothing to do with either living or decomposing organic environments. I'm not creating a new terms to prove my point. In fact I'm trying to convince others in the hobby to realize that their current practice of not being consistent in how they define the terms within the hobby (including those that already have hard and fast definitions outside the hobby) tends to cause a great deal of confusion.



> Here is a quick quote: "Decomposition(mainly by bacteria and fungi)is the chemical and physical processes during which organic matter is broken down and reduced to its original elements.
> 
> What does that make a decomposition enviroment?


I wasn't defining decomposition; I was defining anaerobic--a term which has a fixed definition within and without of the microcosm of decomposition.



> And what is then an aerobic decomposition enviroment?


That would be a an environment in which the break down of organic matter is being carried out by microorganisms engaged in aerobic metabolism in the presence of free oxygen. The point is, it's the oxygen that makes the difference not the carbon.



> On another note, yes, anaerobic/aerobic conditions aren't necessarily related to organics but certain aerobic/anaerobic processes that happen in fish tanks are the result of the presence of organics.


My original point.


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## SBS

> My original point


Your original point is denying the benefits of mineralizing the soil stating in your own words:



> I suppose these people could have all fallen victim to misinterpretation of circumstances, but it seems like the only people who ever end up satisfied with the long term results all those overly complicated mineralized topsoil recipes are the people who came up with them in the first place.


Claiming the benefits of the presence of organics:



> I would think there would be some benefit to having organic material in a lot of different stages of decomposition to start out with to keep the tank going longer down the road.


And then when I tried to explain about the danger of high organics causing anaerobic issues which is specifically relevant to fish tanks, you instead decided to be argumentative, saying organics don't have anything to do with anaerobic/aerobic conditions. It's true theoretically, but not in the context of this topic and not in practice in relation to fish tanks because the two(organics and dangerous anaerobic processes) go hand in hand when aquariums are concerned.


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## MoonshineIT

I was merely trying to get some clarification regarding the so called facts in the arguments both for and against the presence of high organics in the tank since there are satisfied and dissatisfied people on both sides. I was not trying to deny the benefits of mineraliztion as I have no experience with it other than the frustration I am experiencing with my own current attempt at mineralizing some mgocpm. I was simply stating that most of the success about which I have read in the mineralized topsoil camp all seems to be quite short-term with regard to it being self-perpetuating and naturally balanced. Nor was I claiming that keeping all the organics from my bag of mgocpm in the tank would definitely benefit me; I was simply stating that I thought that having those organics was the point of using mgocpm. Again, since I have no experience either way, I was merely asking for some clarification.

Yes I became argumentative (as did you) when I felt like you were attacking me for trying to keep the definition of the term anaerobic from becoming muddied (pun intended). But the point remains that (even now) I still have no idea if everyone who has ever had long-term success with mgocpm has always removed all of the "floaters" from it with some sort of mineralization process, or if all those who have struggled with mgocpm did so because they failed to soak and drain and remove all the floaters, etc.

I thought this would be the appropriate thread to try to get some help with the fact that my experience thus far doesn't seem to resemble what Michael and others have described at all. I never expected it to cause so much trouble for me to try to understand if the problems I'm having are in fact problems or just my misinterpretation of how things are supposed to happen.


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## ksacres

Last year I started two natural style tanks. After eight months of serious neglect (had a new job and things got crazy!), those two tanks are the only two that have anything left alive in them (other than algae). 

I ended up turning off all my pumps, let all my tanks go almost dry (and yes, I lost nearly all of my fish). And the natural tanks are the only ones with anything living. I have several others that had planted tank substrate, some plain sand, and a few other substrates. All were planted, all had fish/snails/shrimp. 

I started them with basic potting soil and a one inch sand cap. No rinsing or mineralizing.


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## Michael

KS, welcome to APC.

Soil tanks are resilient!


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## atc84

So im currently working on my substrate for my 29 gal tank.

I got some super cheap topsail at home depot, the brand was Earth-gro i believe. After rinsing it out, i layed out the dirt, and it wasn't free of small bits of wood.

By the end should the dirt be just pure sand-like texture or can it have some misc. stuff in it? probably tannin problems i'd assume.

Do you need a CEC for washed out cheap topsoil? considering safe-t-sorb.

My cap is going to be playsand, since i cant find any silica sand around. I've heard stories of cloudy water for the first couple days, even after a couple washings. I'll try to counteract that by washing as much as possible. 

Are their any other risks of using playsand? I dont thing the water parameters will change, but I'm still going to test it.


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## Michael

See below.



atc84 said:


> So im currently working on my substrate for my 29 gal tank.
> 
> I got some super cheap topsail at home depot, the brand was Earth-gro i believe. After rinsing it out, i layed out the dirt, and it wasn't free of small bits of wood.
> *Not surprising. A few won't hurt, but lots of wood chunks are inconvenient. You can sieve them out.*
> 
> By the end should the dirt be just pure sand-like texture or can it have some misc. stuff in it? probably tannin problems i'd assume.
> *Are you mineralizing it? This will change the texture to a grainy consistency, not exactly like sand. If you start off with big chunks of stuff, mineralization won't get rid of them. A few smaller chunks are fine in the finished product.*
> 
> Do you need a CEC for washed out cheap topsoil? considering safe-t-sorb.
> *It is not necessary, but I think it is still a good idea.*
> 
> My cap is going to be playsand, since i cant find any silica sand around. I've heard stories of cloudy water for the first couple days, even after a couple washings. I'll try to counteract that by washing as much as possible.
> 
> Are their any other risks of using playsand? I dont thing the water parameters will change, but I'm still going to test it.
> *The main problem with play sand (other than washing it) is the fine texture. This makes anaerobic conditions in the soil layer more likely. Keep your soil layer thin--no more than 1.5", and your cap no more than 1" (this goes for all kinds of sand.) Since you have a Home Depot, go to the concrete section and look for Sakrete multi-purpose sand. It is a little coarser than play sand and has a nice variation in particle size and color. It looks very natural.*


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## atc84

I found Quikrete 50 lb. All-Purpose Sand if thats what your talking about.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cat...=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=Search+All

the Sakrete multi-purpose sand isn't available at my store 

I'll probably stick w/ playsand, idk.

I found some lava rocks in the wild and plan to use them for some hardscape. Is it right to put the rocks in before you put in dirt of cap?


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## Michael

You probably have the sand I was thinking of--I always get Quikcrete and Sakrete mixed up.

Yes, you can put the rocks in before the soil and cap. In fact, this is better because you do not want a layer of soil underneath large rocks--it can become anaerobic. Small rocks are not a problem.


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## atc84

Thanks Michael, you've helped me out whenever i was confused! 

I'm planning on setting up sometime this week.

I'll be sure to upload pictures...

Oh yeah. Considering Bolivian Rams for my aquarium, or maybe some other ram.

If not N.W., ill go with an angel. I heard horror stories of aggressive angels though...


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## atc84

Here's some pictures i took while setting up my hardscape and substrate.

The rocks are lava rocks i found in Utah, and after a quick test i believe it wont leech any metals...

I changed the hardscape before putting in the sand--didn't like the rock on the left. 

Any comments on plants? tomorrow i go on a hunt for some, and whatever i cant find ill search for them online.

(sorry about the glare. The sun is starting to go down...)


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## Michael

I like the last one much better! My suggestion is to move both groups of rocks a little closer to the center of the tank. Right now, they look crowded by the glass.

ATC, since we are now talking about design, it would be better if you started a separate thread for this tank. Without the plants, it looks like iwagumi, a style we rarely see in Walstad tanks.


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## atc84

now that i think of it... i cant really move the rocks on the right, but ill change the left a little to move it closer...

What i meant was what plants to put in what areas.

Yeah ill start a new thread...


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## Hoa

Michael said:


> Try gently poking the substrate with a stick to release the bubbles. Any new plants should be species that have strong root systems--your swords, vals, and cryptocorynes all do.


I'm happy to report that the tank is now flourishing and looking very nice. I made a poking stick out of a coat hanger and poked the substrate for a few weeks straight. Also, the addition of a large bleheri sword seemed to have done the trick. The plants around the sword started growing well, then it spread to the rest of the tank. The sword finally got so large that I had to take it out and trade it in at a local fish store. (The vals and crypts did not do well at first except for one of the crypts that I moved next to the sword.) I now have an explosion of plants and fish (about 20 or so baby black mollies making the tank very busy ;-) ).

Thanks for all the help.
Hoa










P.S. While I have the picture up, could someone help me identify some of the plants in my aquarium? I got some from various fish stores that often are not well labeled. I know the following: Echinodorus bleheri, Java Fern, Java Moss, Anacharis, Hornwort, Najas (BTW, I've told that this one is banned, but am not sure--anyone knows?), Water Wisteria, Bacopa, and Micro Sword. Can anyone tell me the name of the foreground plant on the left edge (it started as a tiny bit that hitched a ride with the other plants), plus the two smaller swords on the foreground, left and right? Thanks.


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## Aedan

Does anyone have information about reports that the Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix comes with a gnat infestation? If so - what should I do about it? http://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Gro- (see customer reviews)

Some people have said to bake the soil before using it to sterilize it, but I think maybe that would be a problem if my point is to nourish my plants in a Walstad NPT.

I want to do dry start method for the plants. My plan is to use MGOC and cap with Flourite, when the time comes. In the instructions for the DSM shrimp tank she mixes yard dirt and MGOC but I'm hoping to stick with just the Miracle Gro & Flourite.

P.S. I'll be everywhere looking for such basic info - as a beginner trying to help children with their first NPT for a science project - thanks to everyone, in advance


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## Michael

Don't worry about the gnats. Once you fill the tank, all the larva (and adults if they don't fly away) will drown. Contrary to the review on Amazon, the gnats and their larva do not eat healthy plant roots.


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## Aedan

Michael said:


> Don't worry about the gnats. Once you fill the tank, all the larva (and adults if they don't fly away) will drown. Contrary to the review on Amazon, the gnats and their larva do not eat healthy plant roots.


Ty  do you know anything about baking the soil? I want to do the dry start method for the plants, and am not cherishing the idea of the swarm of bugs for the month or three while the plants take root good.


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## GadgetGirl

When I soaked my Miracle Gro, I put the floating mulch-like stuff around my houseplants and had several gnats for a few days. They disappeared quickly.


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## aucha

just found this sight been reading alot about dirting a tank cant get mgocpm un less i drive about 4 hours for it great info by the way been looking at sandy loam mineralize it and put in some blood & bone red clay dolomite and potash lock it off with 2mm gravel with some flurite mixed in this is for a 6ft 2ft 2tf tank


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Skip the blood and bone meal--too rich, and likely to cause problems with ammonia, algae, and severely anaerobic substrate.


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## aucha

thank for the help


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## BThis

Michael said:


> Cool! I actually farm snails for my paradise fish, striated loaches, and assassin snails. But I don't have any Malaysian trumpet snails (MTS)--I keep asking, but no one will give me any!


Michael, thanks for translating an acronym! How delightful. I'm still a newbie trying to figure out how to grow plants in my one 55g freshwater tank, and I'm befuddled by all the PPS, MTS, DOC, MGOPS, MGOC, 150-200 TDS, 5-6 GH, HID, T5HO, etc., and that's before I even got to the Greek crypto-cyrillic nebulous nyah nyah rota-pogostick plant names. Is there an Acronym dictionary or Glossary somewhere?


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## Michael

First, welcome to APC!

Not so long ago I was totally confused by all the initials. So I recommend that the first time an abbreviation is used in a thread, it should be spelled out.

Here is the thread you need: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...riums/3105-common-abbreviations-used-apc.html

If you can't find what you are looking for, please post a question in that thread. It hasn't been active for some time, so could use some updating.

P.S. I did get my Malayan snails, and the assassin snails can barely keep up!


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## BruceF

Compost? 
Anybody using compost and if so what is it like? How do you use it?


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## Karl M

I used some very well composted compost. I added some soil that was pretty low in organics to it and some of the plain clay kitty litter. I did add some peat moss because my soil tends to be on the alkaline side. I didn't go through the full mineralizing process but I put it all in a 5 gallon bucket with aquarium water and added some store bought bacteria for aquariums. I stirred it regularly to keep it oxygenated. I did that for about 10 days then added it to the aquarium and capped it with gravel. It has done well. It took about 5 weeks to cycle. My nitrates were a little high for a while after it cycled but they have now come down a lot, 10 or less. Algae hasn't been a major issue. I have had some here and there but it hasn't been in large amounts.

I have a 5 gallon and a 55 gallon that I set up just a few months ago.

If you use compost it is very important that it be very well composted to the point where it becomes stable. If you don't you will run into problems with having to many organics in your tank. The other issue with compost and many soils is that it will give your water a little bit of a yellow look. I did some water changes in the first few weeks but haven't done as much since.


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## BruceF

Hi from Denver Karl!
The compost is from last year's pile so I would hope it isn't too raw. I figured I might add it to some clay from my soil and I was planning on capping it with some black coal slag.


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## FirstBetta

I know this post is off topic for this thread but I need to find the new thread button, I've looked every where but I can't find it. I needed it for this question and a thread on microsword. Please help!


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## atc84

it's above Threads in forum on the left column and under the Control Panel icon.


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## Shrimplett

Hey guys! I have a question. I set up my first el natural tank a few days ago. I used miracle gro organic choice and found that my dirt was rotting and in turn was rotting my plants. So what dirt would you guys reccomend in place of MG that has worked for you? Zapins reccomended Scott's topsoil to me. Is that a good dirt? Can I use it straight from the bag? Thanks!


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## Karl M

I think any regular topsoil would be fine. Just not any that has added fertilizers. The higher the organic content the more important the mineralizing process becomes.

@ bruce, hey bruce! Good luck with your set up.


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## GadgetGirl

@Shrimplett: I used MGOC with no problems so far. It's only been nine days though. I soaked and drained 3-4 times and mineralized. The whole process took about a week, maybe longer. See my thread at http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=89304


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## atc84

maybe you're plants are adjusting??? anyways i used Earth-Gro Topsoil. basically whatever is available that is super cheap. My topsoil was $2.50 for a big bag


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## Naturtank

Would it be necessary to mineralize a bag of "humus" first, before putting it in your tank? Seems like it would be more logical to buy humus since it's already decomposed than using miracle grow organic. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## Michael

Naturtank said:


> Would it be necessary to mineralize a bag of "humus" first, before putting it in your tank? Seems like it would be more logical to buy humus since it's already decomposed than using miracle grow organic. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks!


You are right, it would be pointless to mineralize humus since it is already highly decomposed and stable. In fact, when we "mineralize" soil, we are trying to transform the organic matter in the soil into humus.

Humus by itself is 100% organic matter. Generally we do not want 100% organic matter as our soil layer, so it would be best to mix humus with an inorganic soil component, like clay, silt, or even sand. I like to use clay in one form or another because it has high CEC.


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## turtlepower129

I posted on this thread months ago and I wanted to post the results of my work. 
I soaked my soil for 6 weeks because of Walstad's experiment in her book explaining the benefit of doing this. 
My ammonia tested less than 0.25 ppm for 4 days. After that I have had 0 ammonia and I am in week 10 of my tank setup. I did have a low nitrite reading thru day 17. It never got over 0.25 ppm and I did 30% water changes daily until it tested 0.
I prepared my MGOCPM as follows: in a 5 gallon bucket I added MG and water and I stirred it 2 times daily. At the end of each week I poured off floating stuff and most of the water. I added water and repeated until week 6. I then poured off the water and put MG in a large plastic container to let it air out for 2 weeks while I was getting all of my plants together. 
It needs to be noted that I did not use any cycled filter media in my tank. I used a small internal filter with cut to size filter media to catch some of the floating dirt. 
I don't plan to use any filter on my tank until my water gets dark and I need to remove some of the color out of the water.


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## Michael

Thanks for posting your results! This demonstrates that with careful preparation, the problems of a rich soil like MGOCPM can be solved. Your method is a good alternative for people who don't have the room for mineralization as described in Aaron Talbot's method.


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## chrislewistx

It is nice to have someone come back and post their results. Also, just goes to show there are several ways that work to prepare a soil based substrate.


----------



## grin

I am preparing to set up my first tank. I'm going to set up a 10gal so I can experiment before I spend the money for a 50 gal tank. I've been doing a lot of reading, and just finished Walstad's book, 

I have extremely soft water because I live in Portland. I found 50# of Oyster Grit for $9.00, so I am wondering if I could use it as a substrate to cap my soil. 

What do you guys think?


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## GadgetGirl

No, it would probably be too sharp for bottom feeders like Corys. Mix a few handfuls in the dirt and also use bags of it in the final stage of your filter. This gives you better control if you need to add or subtract some. To use it as a cap would be overkill and might raise your pH too high. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Michael

Agreed.


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## junebug

This has been an interesting read! I have to be honest, I didn't get through all of it (time constraints today) but wanted to share my experience.

I used MiracleGro organic potting soil in all of my "Walstad" tanks. Didn't mineralize it mostly because it never occurred to me and I was going mostly by guesswork at the time. I cap fairly heavily, mostly because soil in the bag dries out a lot where I live, very dry air, and I don't like floaties in my tank after a bad experience with my betta (RIP little man. and to all of you other bettas out there, don't eat wood!)

I currently have two dirted tanks, one is already heavily planted and the other one is wanting. Some of the plants I'd allocated for it had to be repurposed, so it's pretty sparse right now.

However, even with all of that, I've never had an ammonia spike in a dirted tank at all. I keep several fast growing plants in each tank, so that's probably why, and during the first month or so of setup, I run carbon in my filters. I've had to add fish almost immediately to each of these tanks and never run into a problem. 

I also do water changes for the first few weeks, but in all of my NPTs (even the ones with EcoComplete or Flourite rather than "dirt") that tapers off after the plants start growing heavily. (I use RO water for refills because I'm on well water with LOTS of minerals in it)

In fairness, my very first "Walstad" tank was set up with a cheap bag of organic topsoil purchased at my local dollar store. I hated it. Huge wood particles and stuff floating everywhere, even with a heavy cap. That's when I switched to MiracleGrow and frankly, despite all the bad things people say about it, I really like it as a medium for growing aquatic plants.

It should be noted that I get my plants from two sources, both having super healthy stuff that takes off in my tanks about 90% of the time. I've also never once had an issue with anaerobic spots in my substrates, but I keep Malaysian Trumpet Snails in every one of my tanks, and they stir up the soil to prevent that kind of thing.

I haven't read Diana's book yet. Only fair to say that. But I feel like the idea most people I've spoken to about this method get is that creating a semi-closed Ecosystem is the general idea. That's why I'm not shy about putting snails in the tanks, or shrimp, or whatever the burrowing invert of choice happens to be, to prevent anaerobic bacterial spots. 

I actually had one tank up and running for several months that was completely closed. All I did was add water. The tank had grown enough micro-organisms to feed the fish and shrimp. That tank had to be broken down so the fish could breed. I've moved the entire setup to a different tank and I expect that within the next month, if I can get my copepod colony started in it, it'll be mostly closed too with only the need for refills. I don't worry about the soil in that tank either because of the MTS I keep in it.

Edit: I should say! Can't believe I left out that most of my tanks are blackwater tanks. I like tannins and tea-colored water. Use of MiracleGrow, has, I think in my case, helped me acidify my water, which makes my fish really happy critters. Obviously not everyone keeps blackwater tanks, so please don't take my word for things unless you have the same kind of fish as I do, and even then, don't take my word!


----------



## atc84

Thanks for the post, JB. I'll have to look out for wood chunks in my betta tank now!


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## junebug

Hey atc lol! <33 good to see ya buddy!

Yes, beware the wood with angry fish like bettas  If the particles floating are small enough to fit in their mouths, there's a very good chance that's where they'll end up


----------



## grin

What type of a cap do you guys recommend for substrate? Would something like fluorite leach too much iron into the water? Is regular inert gravel or sand the best choice?


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## Michael

All of those will work. Since the soil layer is the most biologically active part of the substrate (at least at first) you can choose the cap based on aesthetics as long as the choice is reasonable.


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## atc84

In another thread Diana posted "I suspect the tank's problem is metal toxicity from excessive iron. The organic soil solubilized the iron in the fluorite releasing excessive iron. This is due to the soil's anaerobic conditions and acidity plus the soil's copious humus, which acts like an iron-chelator. This excessive iron can kill sensitive plants."

Does this mean high addictive mediums like laterite should be avoided?


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## Michael

"high addictive mediums"?

Maybe, depending on what soil you are using. What it means is that one should be careful using high-iron substrates in combination with 100% organic, acidic soil that is prone to become anaerobic. Examples of such soil would be MGOC or others with lots of peat and nutrients, especially if the soil layer is too deep.

This is why I like to prepare such soils beforehand, and mix them with a non-nutritive high CEC material like Safe-T-Sorb.


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## atc84

"high addictive mediums", i meant "additive" sorry lol. Thank you for clarifying.


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## Spudgunman

one thing I haven't read about but would like some opinion on. after the 1st dirt process I am left with a large amount of what I will call concrete at the bottom of my soaking bin.

basically have about 1" of large and fins gravel and sand - this is a very heavy and hard layer.

should I bother adding it to my "drying batch" or just toss it since it would get screened out anyway.. is there any biological advantage to this sand and gravel in my future use of the soil?


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## Michael

Natural topsoil almost always has both organic and inorganic materials, with the inorganic portion being much larger. My suggestion would be to keep the sand and just remove the the gravel--anything over 1/4". After you do the final drying cycle and are ready to use the soil in the tank, mix all the sand back in with the fine soil particles


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## growingwonders

Could one not go into the forest, remove the layer of leaf mold, get to the natural humus, run water through it, while stirring, to remove any debris, mix this with laterite, and use that, with a cap? What about purchased humus? Would this eliminate the need for the remineralizing?


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## Vazkez

Hello guys,

frist thank you Michael for *great* thread 

I though I will write something as well what I learned so far (still noob):

1. Before you start anything search the web and forums. If you are stack do not be afraid to ask for help there is many great folks here with lots of xp. which will help you (but first search the web). For instant thanks to Zapins for sorting my Plant Deficiencies 
2. For all UK folks who can not find MGOC I am using John Innes 3 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=669686 
I go main from Homebase but most retails in UK sell it. 
There is another option from Ebay. It is call Original & genuine AQUA SOIL (blue bag) and It's soil for pond. I did not try that one myself but I heard good things about it.
3. I did not mineralize or wet/dry my soil. I just throw it in from bag and cover it with gravel. No problems so far (I might be just lucky). Unfortunately I had no time to play with it.
4. Get heavy rooters wich will help you with the substrate (Swords, Water lily etc.)
5. Stock heavy with plants and get some fast growing stem plants and floating plants (duckweed, Amazon frogbit). Both will help you to absorb lots of nutrients and help with Amonia / NO3 spikes.
6. Get snails. I know many people do not like them but they are great. Some of them even burrow and help you with the substrate.

Hope this help someone.

Sorry for the wall of text and my EN 

Vaz


----------



## Kravcu

Hi,
Have anyone tried using "hi-end" soils with chemical fertilisers?
I know that the basic idea is to use cheap soils, without fertilisers, but recently I have found a great planted tank( HT) using fertilised soil, kept without any fertilisation to water column except potassium.
Unfortunatelly, the NPK ratio is unknown, but the soil Is called: "complete osmocote soil for balcony plants"
I am curious what do you think.


Sorry for any mistakes.


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## Michael

Such soils are usually avoided because they are TOO fertile, and release lots of nutrients into the water quickly. But Osmocote has been used as a substrate fertilizer in aquaria. The original Osmocote is fertilizer in time-release capsules that slowly release nutrients into soil over a period of months. Exactly how quickly they do it in aquarium substrate is a matter of debate.

I am guessing that the product you refer to is a potting soil with the Osmocote capsules already mixed in. There actually is an "Osmocote thread" on APC, just do a search and it should come up.


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## dgarone

Hey Michael,

I have a question for you that I don't think has quite been covered in this thread although I haven't read every single post.

How does all this advice stack up for a dry start method aquarium? That is, is all of the advice the same, or does that change the calculus? If it does change it, how so?

I ask because I'm starting a 12-gallon long. I was thinking about doing an inch of the Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix as it come right out of the bag with an inch of something like flourite black sand over it as a cap and for its CAC. Would that be a disaster? Would it at least be worth putting the Miracle Gro in a bucket with water for a few days and getting the biggest floaters out? Or should I do even more prep? Or is this combo a disaster?

I plan on throwing a pile of HC or glosso on the surface while I dry start it into a carpet. So, in a month or two, if it's doing a fairly good job of covering the surface, I'll flood it and have a decent plant mass. I'll then probably add stems or something else fast growing around the perimeter.

I'll also be injecting CO2 and have medium to high LED light.

Additionally, I think you've touched upon it, but, I'm wondering, what would happen if I did some sort of EI dosing once the tank was flooded and the plants had adjusted to being submerged? Would that be too much and cause a ton of algae.

I'm willing to keep the tank flooded without fauna for a month or two if it'd be dangerous for them.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I just have so many questions.  The more I read, the more questions I have.


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## atc84

Hi,
I can help you with some of your questions, but this will probably help a lot: http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf

It says that since it's a DSM aquarium, the soil doesn't need to be treated (mineralizing) like you would if it was being straight submersed. I don't know anything about EI dosing, lol, so Michael will have to help you with that one.


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## Michael

Thanks to ATC for the perfect link!

I would still do some preparation on the MGOC--a few soak and drain cycles would be good. That soil is very nutrient-rich, so you will not need to fertilize for a very long time, if ever.


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## dgarone

Thanks guys. I'm still not sure whether I should go for it.


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## fjord

Michael,

Thanks for a great thread. Currently I have two dirted tanks using Aaron's method of mineralized topsoil. My experience has been successful, but growth has not been as lush as I expected in my older tank, so I'm questioning some of my tactics. I followed Aarons directions and topped with a 50/50 mix of ecco-complete and flourite, followed by a cap of natural inert aquarium gravel. I'm wondering if I got it too deep (~3"), or if the flourite may have caused problems because of the iron? Comments please.

So I'm thinking about trying again using MGOC. I use Turface MPV in my bonsai soils. What ratio do you use for the mix of MGOC/Turface for the substrate? 

I also have a couple of gallons of aquasoil I was thinking of mixing with flourite to place over the first layer. Good or bad idea? Then I plan to cap with a fine inert gravel.

I would appreciate your comments on this approach and welcome any advice or comments. Thanks in advance.

Michael too


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## atc84

I would make sure it's the substrate and not other factors (lighting, water conditions, plants etc) before getting into too the substrate too much.  I have the same soil as you with inert sand on top and i have plenty of growth. Hope this helps.


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## Michael

Always happy to see another Michael! See my comments below.

Thanks for a great thread. Currently I have two dirted tanks using Aaron's method of mineralized topsoil. My experience has been successful, but growth has not been as lush as I expected in my older tank, so I'm questioning some of my tactics. I followed Aarons directions and topped with a 50/50 mix of ecco-complete and flourite, followed by a cap of natural inert aquarium gravel. I'm wondering if I got it too deep (~3"), or if the flourite may have caused problems because of the iron? Comments please.
*I doubt the Flourite caused any problems. I suspect the deep cap may have created some anaerobic conditions in the soil layer--nothing drastic, but maybe enough to slow plant growth. There really isn't any reason to do 3 layers, i would just do soil and a cap.
*
So I'm thinking about trying again using MGOC. I use Turface MPV in my bonsai soils. What ratio do you use for the mix of MGOC/Turface for the substrate? 
*I use 50/50. I can't get Turface in reasonable quantities, so I use Safe-T-Sorb, but the effect is the same. I still think it is a good idea to prepare the MGOC before using it. Soak and drain will reduce the excess nutrients and help remove the big woody floating pieces.*

I also have a couple of gallons of aquasoil I was thinking of mixing with flourite to place over the first layer. Good or bad idea? Then I plan to cap with a fine inert gravel.
*If this is new Aquasoil, it will have similar levels of nutrients as mineralized topsoil, so if you want to use it, mix it with the soil rather than in a layer nearer the surface. If it is well-used Aquasoil, it will have properties more similar to Turface--low levels of nutrients but probably good cation exchange capacity (CEC).*

I would appreciate your comments on this approach and welcome any advice or comments. Thanks in advance.
*My general reaction is, why are you making this more complex than it needs to be? The multiple layers are not really helping, and make it more likely that the cap will be too deep. None of the ingredients are harmful, and if you are just trying to use them up, that's fine. But you don't need all of them. I suggest you use the nutrient rich components (MGOC, Aquasoil) in the bottom layer and mix them with Turface half and half. Then use whatever type of inert cap that you like.

Off topic, but what kind of bonsai do you grow?*


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## atc84

> always happy to see another michael!


lol


----------



## fjord

Many thanks for the comments!

atc84, I'll receive a Build My LED on Tuesday. Currently I have a dual T5HO. I'll give it some time and will report back on the fixture. My water parameters are pretty good. PH is about 7, Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite are all at zero. My KH was about 7 the last time I checked. I haven't tested GH yet, but just got a kit. TDS is about 170.

Michael, I really appreciate the feedback. Not sure what I will do quite yet, but thinking I may start over. I'll probably try and shop vac the two layers of the cap and the flourite and bring it down a bit. If I go to that trouble, I may just start over. I'll mineralize the MGOC and perhaps mix it with some left over mineralized top soil I have, and then cap it. I'm thinking about the KISS method (keep it simple stupid). This will all take months so somewhere down the road I'll report back.

Regarding Bonsai, I'm working with Trident Maples, Japanese Maples, Japanese Beech, a few Chinese Elms, a Satsuki Azalea, a few Junipers, and a few Zuisho Pines. PM me if you need.

Thanks a lot guys! I really appreciate it!

Michael2


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## Wy Renegade

So I've acquired the MGOC potting soil and have begun the process of mineralizing it. Just to make sure I am on the right track; I've currently got it soaking in two 5 gallon buckets. Tomorrow I pour off the water and floating debris and resoak, and then repeat on Wednesday. Then I dry it and replace it back into the buckets to soak again. Does it have to be soaked three times the second time and how many times should I repeat the soaking/drying? This thread doesn't really seem to indicate that it needs dried, but the mineralization thread in the library indicates it should be soaked and dried three to four times. TIA


----------



## Tugg

The first 3 soaks are to leach out some of the richness (chicken poo\manure). It's much too hot (ammonia) for aquarium use right out of the bag.

After this, you spread it out on a tarp nice and wet. Then let it slowly dry. Then rewet it... dry... rewet... dry. This second part is that actual mineralization process of breaking down the organic material into a more stable form.


----------



## Wy Renegade

Tugg said:


> The first 3 soaks are to leach out some of the richness (chicken poo\manure). It's much too hot (ammonia) for aquarium use right out of the bag.
> 
> After this, you spread it out on a tarp nice and wet. Then let it slowly dry. Then rewet it... dry... rewet... dry. This second part is that actual mineralization process of breaking down the organic material into a more stable form.


Thanks Tugg, so the second and third wetting after the initial drying I only soak them once?


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## Tugg

You add water 5 times ideally.
1) Soak all of it for a day
- Then drain/remove floating
2) Soak for a day
- Then drain
3) Soak for a day
- Then drain and spread out on a tarp to dry
4) Get it good and wet
- Let it slowly dry
5) Wet it one last time
- Let it slowly dry

Idealy you would then sift the chunks of wood out and put it in the tank with a 50/50 ratio of Safe-T-Sorb to about 1-1.5 inches, with a 1-1.5 inch cap.


----------



## Michael

Tugg is right.


----------



## Wy Renegade

Ok, thanks guys. Question on the Safety-T-Zorb; in my understanding this is a fired clay product right? I have some aquatic substrate from Hydrophyte over on TPT that is also fired clay, would this work to mix 50/50 as well as use as a substrate cap?


----------



## Michael

It probably would be fine, assuming that it is an appropriate size.


----------



## Wy Renegade

Michael said:


> It probably would be fine, assuming that it is an appropriate size.


 It is a little larger than Safety-T-Zorb or Kitty litter, more like gravel.


----------



## Wy Renegade

Ok, I've actually soaked the soil about six times in total and dried twice. Each time I seem to have an abundance of floating wood pieces. Should I continue to soak and dry?


----------



## Michael

Give it another soak and dry cycle or two. You can also screen the dry soil to remove large pieces of wood.


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## Wy Renegade

Ok thanks, I'll try that and if it doesn't work I may have to resort to screening.


----------



## SBS

I used a kitchen sifter for mine after I mineralized and dried the last time. Worked like a charm.


----------



## macman0_8

so i saw a bag of organic humus at the store,from what i understand there is no need to mineralize this?Also using this method will i still need to dose the water column for my ferns?thanks


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## Tugg

Check the bag. It may also have manure, chicken poop, or other rich ferts added.


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## macman0_8

Yes you are right it did contain manure,should i just use top soil instead?


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## Michael

Yes, plain topsoil is much better. If you have access to a garden or landscape that has not been treated with pesticides or synthetic fertilizer, some soil from there would probably be fine.


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## macman0_8

Do i still need to mix the top soil with the safe t sorb.


----------



## Michael

If you are using REAL NATURAL TOPSOIL, then you don't. I'm not being rude--it is very important to make a distinction between natural topsoil that you collect from a suitable location and the bagged stuff from Home Depot that claims to be "All Natural Topsoil" but is not.

I see that you are in Georgia. Does your part of the state have the red clay soil? If so, that is OK but do collect your soil from the top 12". Avoid the red clay subsoil from deeper layers.


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## macman0_8

Yes the soil here is mostly red clay.If i go out in the woods the layer of soil might be deep enough to get a good amount,but would be from decomposed leafs.


----------



## Eri Mar

I am new to the hobby and thanks to you and Mr.Talbot i have mineralized top soil (the cheapest found at HD) after the process the soil has no smells and it looks nice and grey( I actually like the nice earth smell). I found pure natural clay in power and dolomite but i yet need to test my water hardness i may not need the dolomite. Potash has been hard to find locally but i found it on ebay. I am going to use the MTS on an 80 gallon tank with CO2, i just dont know if I need to dose with ferts even using MTS. I will keep a thread of my progress once the tank is set up. Thanks for this thread.


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## Michael

Eri, welcome to APC!


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## Eri Mar

Michael i am most thankful for your prompt response. I am also looking forward to setting up my tank soon. As I mention I have all the ingredients ready to use mineralized top soil with black diamond sand, small black lava rock and pool filter sand. I am assuming that I dont need to use ferts for a while. I am going to do a thread of my set up. Thank you again. Erick


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## Eckington

This may sound crazy but I'm also into fermented foods. I bought some leaf or potting soil. It seemed the simplest with the least additives I put it in a bucket with some coffee grounds, whey from some sour milk and a cup of molasses, all covered with aged water. I'm betting the whole thing will start pickling, breaking down pieces of bark and peat into humus rapidly. I'll let you know what happens.


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## Michael

Eckington, you are creating a very high nutrient mix. You probably will get a lot of bacterial action, but even when that is finished, I would use the result very sparingly. It will be more like a fertilizer than a soil.


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## Skizhx

Just curious, but have you considered adding laterite to your mix?

Based on a handful of observations I have a slight interest to see if highly organic/nutrient rich substrates don't behave a little better when laterite is added.


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## Michael

Laterite is a clay mineral, and definitely does help with those types of substrates.


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## Eckington

Where do you get laterite?


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## Eckington

I plan to do several complete water changes as soon as the fermentation is done.


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## KeyLime

I bought Miracle Gro Organic Gardening Soil by mistake.
I dumped some into the tank and added water. It turned black with many floating pieces of bark and what seemed like peat moss. I let it settle for a day and then started netting out the big pieces. 
A few more times until finally I decided just drag the big net back and forth back and forth to sift through. Then I filled the tank again running the water through the net full of stuff. What was left was bits of what looked like wood pulp.
I'd say I took out 3/4 of the soil by repeating this method. 
Then I filled, let it settle, drained, refilled quite a few times.
What was left was very fine, and the water pretty much cleared quickly when settling. 
A few more water changes and little 1/2" bumps of grey fungus type stuff appeared all over. Even affter stirring the substrate they appear again within hours.
A few more changes and the grey bumps turned into a film with some plumes of what looked like smoke coming out of some areas...and what looks like slime growing up the sides and waving in the very slight water movement. The water also turned green.

I think it's cycling.


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## KeyLime

Has anyone tried adding septic tank activator?


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## Skizhx

Michael said:


> Laterite is a clay mineral, and definitely does help with those types of substrates.


Yet Walstaad specifically condemns adding laterite, and as a result I feel many hobbyists have been avoiding it and missing out on some good stuff.

Granted, it's embraced when using mineralized soil...

However, I think there's a bit of an irrational fear surrounding non-mineralized soils, even more so when laterite is involved.

Personally I've never mineralized soil because I've just never encountered a situation where it was necessary... However I will say Miracle Grow was less than fantastic as a 'raw' soil... I would never use Miracle Grow Organic for anything... Not even terrestrial plants.

_Sometimes_ you'll get ammonia spikes with generic top soil, but in my experience they're low spikes, and they go away within a week after filling the tank, by which point your tank is almost finished cycling.

You will see brown algae and some green algae at first, but it resolves itself with no intervention... That's been my experience at least...


----------



## whimsical mike

hello all. Am new to this site and to planted aquariums.
Have a 60 gallon tank that we are going to try as an El Natural.
A couple of questions if i may.
Have a very old bag, 8 years maybe, of potting mix that has pretty much broken down to a humus. was thinking of mixing it with a product we have in Australia for our very poor soils. Rich grow Sand to Soil has as its main components Bentonite, Zeolite and Spongeolite. As the water here is super soft and a touch acidic was going to add maybe 10 handfuls of dolomite for a buffer. 
Does this sound like a reasonable soil?

The next problem is how to make a 3 tiered substrate that gets up to about 6" deep. Read here not to exceed 1.5" for the soil and another 1.5 for the top cap of 1-2mm gravel, i need double this for our setup which drew inspiration from looking at too many Takashi pictures.

Thanks for any help that may be forth comming.
Mike


----------



## Tugg

I'm not an expert, but your plan looks good to me. I don't see any red flags there.

For the elevation, put an inert filler in as a base, then add soil and cap ontop. The key is keeping the soil aerobic.


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## Michael

Mike, welcome to APC! I don't think you need that much dolomite--a very thin layer over the bottom glass before you put in the soil is enough. By thin, I mean that you can still see the glass in places through the dolomite.

I had to look up spongeolite! It seems to be used in terrestrial soils primarily because it is very porous and holds water. This isn't necessary in an aquarium. It is also almost entirely silica, which some people think promotes the growth of diatom algae. So you can probably leave that out.

With those changes, you have a good plan.


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## whimsical mike

Thanks for the feedback
Mike the spongelite is in the mixture so can't take it out. Will have a look and see if i can find the bentonite and Zeolite as separate components.
Mike


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## Michael

Don't worry about it, just keep the quantities reasonable. It will be under the cap, so that helps.


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## Tugg

If anything the spongelite being porous may work out great. Being porous, it may help prevent compaction from being a problem. I have to imagine it will help mitigate anaerobic activity since the water can more easily diffuse through it.

EDIT: apparently I wrote aerobatic instead of anaerobic. LOL, we don't want those microbes doing backflips in the soil, now do we.


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## Michael

It will give a good place for beneficial bacteria to grow.


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## whimsical mike

I bought a 10Kg pail of it today. The topsoil is soaking overnight to see how many floaties get evicted, seems less than 10% last time i looked. I was going to mix them 50/50 and see what it feels like. 
Have 20Kg of quartz stones to lift up the second terrace. Probably put some fiberglass insect mesh over the stones to stop the soil working its way down. Am making the terrace walls at the moment. Sticking little stones to the strips of plastic takes so many hours, about 8 hours total, but hopefully will look good when it is in the tank. I will post a pix when i get it all in.
Thanks for the help
Mike


----------



## whimsical mike

Mixed the sand to soil with the washed topsoil material. I put a smallish amount of the clay in a big container and started adding the damp topsoil. What a mess used all of the topsoil and i have a very very sticky concoction that won't pass water that is pooled on top. I think a little clay goes a loooooong way. I would think there is about 15% of the sand to soil in this mix and i can't imagine it would be a good substrate , but i may be wrong.
What sort of texture would the usual mixes be like. Thinking of getting a bag of zeolite, its used here instead of sand for pool filters, and use that as a high cec sand to soften my concrete. 

Mike


----------



## atc84

Hmm, im surprised it's not passing water through it. Is it dryish when you put water on it? maybe it's already soaked with water... 

So you say theres about 15% sand, 75% soil? You could add more sand, which would soften the mixture. 

idk, i might be confused...


----------



## 512Chris

Hi all, thanks for a great thread, it's made interesting reading over the the past few days.

I'm about to strip down a 15G tank and set it up El Natural. As I live in the UK the CEC products mentioned are not necessarily available and I have a bag of VitaLink Clay Pebbles that are 8-20mm clay pellets, for use in hydroponics, drainage and aeration, does this sound like a suitable product to use and if so what sort of size should I crush to pebbles down to and what percentage should I be using in the soil?

I'm aiming to use Miracle-Gro Organic Choice All Purpose Peat Free Compost at about 1" deep capped with mostly with gravel, and if I can manage it, an area capped with sand to keep the corrys happy!

Thank you.

Chris.


----------



## Michael

Chris, welcome to APC!

Most clay pellets sold for hydroponics are fired, so the VitaLink should be good. Try to crush them to the size of normal aquarium gravel (~2-3mm).

If the Miracle-Gro products in the UK are similar to those in the states, the compost is probably too rich as it comes from the bag. I suggest you soak-and-drain or mineralize it before use. Since it is 100% organic material, mix it half and half with the crushed clay pellets.

Other members from the UK have used John Innes #3. I suspect it is less rich, which is a good thing for aquaria. You might try a search for it to read others' experiences. I would still mix it with the crushed VitaLink.

Good luck, and let us know how the tank turns out.


----------



## 512Chris

Thanks for the welcome, quick response and help Michael.

I'd chosen the Miracle-Gro Compost largely because I happen to have some and it was mentioned in an article on the Walstad method on theaquariumwiki.com site as a suitable soil available in the UK.

I've about 7 to 10 days before the plants arrive so I was going to mineralise the soil whilst I'm waiting.

Cheers

Chris

ps I'll get crushing as well.


----------



## Eri Mar

Hello,
I am still planning all the ingredients for my 75 gallon tank not 80 gallon tank as I previously mentioned. I already have all the ingredients for the MTS including the soil, however I also purchased a bag of fine lava rock and the question I have is if after I place a one inch layer of top soil mix with clay and muriate of potash, if I should put a thin layer of lava rock on top and then capped off with Black Diamond sand to prevent the soil from compacting down and preventing root decay. Your advice will be highly appreciate it.


----------



## Michael

I doubt the lava rock will help, and it will probably mix with the Black Diamond sand. You don't need it.


----------



## Eri Mar

Thank you for the prompt response. I think I am almost ready!


----------



## KrisR

This thread and others like it have been extremely helpful so far (Thankyou to all contributors), but I have one question which I haven't seen answered after weeks of reading about soil based tanks - apologies if I have missed the obvious answer:

Why does everyone use bags of commercial topsoil rather than soil straight from their yard? I have several different types of earth at different spots here on my cattle farm, ranging from coral rock to sand, to dark brown soil to very red soil. In some places the soil layer is 2 metres thick (I know because we just dug a trench for underground power). I was thinking of using the dark brown soil from about 50cm under the surface - is there anything wrong with using this soil in my tank (assuming I respect the advised depth for soil and capping)? Would you still recommend going through the wetting and drying cycles if I was to use this soil?


----------



## 75ona76

I would to a test jar. But in my personal opinion I would definitely give it a try. I use commercial soil because I don't have access to that beautiful natural soil. I am jealous!


----------



## pandragon

KrisR, the answer is simple, some people don't live on a cattle farm and either don't have any kind of yard to get dirt from or the dirt they can get is back full composed of mostly limestone or some other thing without much in the way of nutrients, organics, humus etc that make soil suitable for plants. I set up my first dirt tank with soil from my back yard, it nearly killed the plants and the ph started in the 7s and went up to 8.4-8.5 and kept climbing when I added reverse osmosis water. My kh and gh values were off the chart as well. Since then my soil has been slowly turning into cement. Therefore cheap top soil was my only option and I still have to use quite a bit of ro water to get ph in high 7s and dose iron to keep my plants from turning white. You are very lucky to have access to many kinds of soil.


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## Michael

Kris and 75, welcome to APC!

Definitely try some of your natural soils, and do some simple jar tests just to eliminate the very rare possibility that they are not suitable for aquarium use. Walstad discusses natural soils extensively in _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, and says that most can be used successfully. You don't need to mineralize the natural soil; we do that because most of the bagged commercial soils are not natural soils at all and contain excess organics and nutrients.

Please let us know how it works.


----------



## scotty76

Hello all

First, let me thank all the awesome contributors to this thread. It has become part of my daily reading routine.

I am currently in the middle of doing the soak/drain process on my Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix... so far, so good. I'll continue to do this until my Eco-Complete substrate arrives in the mail.

From reading this thread, it was recommended that an inert substance should be mixed with the humus. At first I was going to buy laterite, but it seems that there may be a possibility for iron to become concentrated at dangerous levels within the humus, so I am now looking at clay.

What do you all think about using this Zoo-Med expanded clay to crush and mix with the humus? 
http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Hydro...8&qid=1409726317&sr=8-4&keywords=clay+pellets

Also, what is your opinion on using a gravel tidy in between the humus layer and substrate cap layer? Would it be a detriment by possibly compacting the humus?

*For clarification: A gravel tidy is a plastic mesh that would separate the humus and the substrate. The mesh's holes should be big enough for roots to push through, but still retain the humus in place. I was thinking of using greenhouse shade mesh because its really inexpensive.

image for reference:


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

The HydroBalls sound like they would be fine, but I imagine they will be a chore to crush.

I'd never heard the term "gravel tidy" before, are you in Great Britain by chance? It isn't really necessary; substrate in Walstad tanks is not nearly as touchy as most people think. But it will work, and I have seen some beautiful tanks that used similar products for the same purpose.


----------



## scotty76

Michael said:


> The HydroBalls sound like they would be fine, but I imagine they will be a chore to crush.
> 
> I'd never heard the term "gravel tidy" before, are you in Great Britain by chance?...


Thanks for the feedback, Michael! Yeah, I searched my local hardware stores and plant nurseries for clay pellets, but was not successful. In addition, I also looked for natural kitty litter without success. Only reason I was looking at the Zoomed product was because it was the least expensive on Amazon. I would be very interested to learn of other alternatives.

Lol, I only heard about gravel tidys a few weeks ago (I live in Honolulu). Its good to know that its not necessary to use.


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## Eri Mar

Scotty I really like the scape, however isn't the gravel covering the soil too big in diameter? Don't get me wrong I really like the composition, size of gravel and rock with the manzanita. Can you give us some updates on your scape.


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## mik778866

Hi.

I’m new to APC, and have little knowledge of dirted tanks. Currently reading Walstad book. But what exactly is meant by ‘unfertilized’ potting soil. None of the potting soils I have looked at state whether its fertilized or not. If I did happen to buy potting soil that was fertilized, does this mean this should not be used. The potting mix I purchase does not say much other than, *‘Gromor Potting Soil is suitable for the potting of most plants including roses. *It contains organic compost, bark and sand to provide good aeration and water holding properties and also includes an organic slow release fertiliser. And Pre-enriched , composted pine bark and river sand growing media. It has a better water and nutrient retention capacity than growing media.


----------



## Michael

There are two red flags in the description: "organic slow-release fertilizer" and "pre-enriched". We don't know exactly what these terms mean, but the wording suggests that this soil has some type of added fertilizer.

If you use this soil, I would recommend screening it first to remove large pieces of bark. then soak and drain several times, and mineralize if you can. This would be the safest thing to do.


----------



## mik778866

Ok thanks. Silly me. I capped it last week. It has no large bark.


----------



## PK1

Michael said:


> *
> 
> And there is one last tip for using MGOC or any other highly organic soil: mix it with an inorganic substrate that has a high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Examples are laterite, Flourite, Turface, plain cat litter (no perfume, antimicrobials, or clumping agents), and Safe-T-Sorb. Remember, natural soil is almost never pure organic matter. Mixing the organic matter with inorganic high CEC substances means that the ammonia and other nutrients produced are held in the substrate where plant roots can use them, but where they will not harm fish. And by reducing the percentage of organic matter, you reduce the likelihood of the soil becoming anaerobic. I like a 50/50 mix. Phil Edwards first gave me this advice, and it has worked well for me.*


*

Excellent thread! I read all of it, but couldn't find the answer to a question, hopefully I didn't miss it along the way:

When mixing the soil 50/50 with a high CEC substrate, should the mix still be at a 1" depth capped with 1" of inert substrate? I have mixed Miracle Grow (soaked/rinsed 3-4 times over 4-5 days, then spread out to dry once) with Eco-Complete at a 50/50 ratio, so I'm wondering if I can make the depth 2" with the mix and maybe add a thin cap or do I go 1"+ 1"?*


----------



## pandragon

I mixed 50/50 mts and high cec clay kitty litter and it separated and now the clay stuff is on top, maybe I needed a heavier cap rather than using more of the clay stuff. (i have heard of people using fluorite and safety sorb which is similar for the mix and cap so i figured the kitty litter would be of a similar result)

I tend to keep my substrate including cap no more than 2 inches whether I mix the high cec substrate or just layer it. Depending on the cap material you might need more or less to hold everything down, fine sand, for example would be good as a thin cap while thicker gravel could get away with a bit thicker cap as there is more space between the particles to allow oxygenated water to flow and soil to float back up.


----------



## GadgetGirl

PK1 said:


> Excellent thread! I read all of it, but couldn't find the answer to a question, hopefully I didn't miss it along the way:
> 
> When mixing the soil 50/50 with a high CEC substrate, should the mix still be at a 1" depth capped with 1" of inert substrate? I have mixed Miracle Grow (soaked/rinsed 3-4 times over 4-5 days, then spread out to dry once) with Eco-Complete at a 50/50 ratio, so I'm wondering if I can make the depth 2" with the mix and maybe add a thin cap or do I go 1"+ 1"?


No matter what you mix the soil with, the final soil mix should still be one inch.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## PK1

Thanks all.


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## rduhb

I'm considering mixing my MGOC with Flourite as suggested by the moderator. Does is make a difference which Flourite I use? Original, red, dark? Each one has a slightly different compound makeup.


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## Michael

From what I can tell from the Seachem site, the differences are not significant. I wish Seachem would give cation exchange capacity measurements; that would be helpful information.


----------



## Tugg

Honestly, the soil's CEC will be so much higher I doubt there will be any measurable difference. 

300 meg/100g + 80
Vs
300 meg/100g + 60

These are some average numbers I could find. A real measurement would take in account that our soil is almost pure humus, having very high organic content. (Above average CEC). The clays we mix in (fluorite, Safe-T-Sorb, eco complete) are all fired and in granual chucks, not fine dust (lowering its CEC).


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## rduhb

I'm on my fifth dump and refill of my MGOC. All the floaters are gone, but the water is no where near being clear. If I stir after each refill I don't think the water will ever clear. Is that what I should expect?


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## Michael

Yes. If you refill and allow to settle overnight, the water above the soil should be reasonably clear, but probably still tea-colored from tannins. If you have done this five times, that's enough. Time to spread the soil out and let it dry exposed to air if you can.


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## rduhb

Thanks, Michael! Right now it's more like black coffee rather than tea. 
I'll dump and fill a few more times before I let it dry. However, since it's 0 degrees outside and I don't really have a spot to let it try indoors, is it ok if I skip the drying step before adding to the tank?


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## GadgetGirl

When I used MGOC I couldn't mineralize outdoors either as I lived in a 3rd floor condo. What I did was put it in the aquarium and then clip/hang a small fan on the side. Stir frequently, dry, wet, repeat. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Michael

rduhb said:


> Thanks, Michael! Right now it's more like black coffee rather than tea.
> I'll dump and fill a few more times before I let it dry. However, since it's 0 degrees outside and I don't really have a spot to let it try indoors, is it ok if I skip the drying step before adding to the tank?


Yes, especially since you have soaked and drained so many times.


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## rduhb

Michael said:


> Yes, especially since you have soaked and drained so many times.


It's my understanding that after it dries I should put it back in a bucket and fill/dump a few more times. Is that correct? Also, at what point should I mix in the flourite? Thanks in advance!!


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## Michael

Ideally, let the soil dry, then re-wet it, let it dry again, and repeat several times. Since you have already soaked and drained many times, it is not necessary to put it back in the bucket for more soaking. I usually do this in a wide, flat tub so it is easy to wet the soil.

The reason is that when the soil is moist but not saturated, beneficial bacteria break down the organic matter into stable humus. This happens most quickly in the presence of both water and oxygen. After you are finished with all the wetting and drying, mix the mineralized soil with the Flourite, and it is ready to use immediately.


----------



## rduhb

Michael said:


> Ideally, let the soil dry, then re-wet it, let it dry again, and repeat several times. Since you have already soaked and drained many times, it is not necessary to put it back in the bucket for more soaking. I usually do this in a wide, flat tub so it is easy to wet the soil.
> 
> The reason is that when the soil is moist but not saturated, beneficial bacteria break down the organic matter into stable humus. This happens most quickly in the presence of both water and oxygen. After you are finished with all the wetting and drying, mix the mineralized soil with the Flourite, and it is ready to use immediately.


Michael, thanks! The purchase of my plants has been pushed out a couple weeks so would you advise letting the dirt/flourite soak or sit dry until I'm ready to plant?

Also, just out of curiosity what is impact of going more dirt less flourite? Lets say a 75/25 mix.


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## Michael

You want to finish the mineralization of the soil before you mix it with the Flourite. Then store it dry.

More dirt/less Flourite means more problems: excess nutrients, tannin-stained water, and anaerobic substrate. Much better to go the other way.


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## jerilovesfrogs

hello all.....i have had several npt's over the last several years..... with various substrates. i never mineralized any of them.....just because i didn't know much about it. i based them (loosely) on the walstad method. 

one 10g was topsoil. that was ok, except for the horrific tannins. that was the experimental tank. i then set up a little cherry shrimp bowl with MGOC garden soil....with gravel on top. that was perfect. it had no tannins, no filter and no heater. it worked very well.....until the moss and sags took over, and i took it down. (and because that specific bowl was recalled by petsmart, and didn't want to chance it breaking). I had very little algae in both. 

i then used this same MGOC soil in the 12g edge. that was also perfect. no tannins, next to no algae. great plant growth. i have a pic somewhere. i did take it down, i need to downsize, as i'm moving soon. i only used the stock LED lights on that one. my fave so far. i heated it, but no filter. 

so , my next project was the 150g. big job. again used the same soil, capped with TMS. little to no issues with algae.....and some tannins, but not nearly as bad as the topsoil one. i redid it completely, because i put my cichlids from the 75 into it. when i get settled into my new house later in the summer.....i'm going to make the 75 an NPT again. i did run an fx5 on the 150 however. 

i had a question though......i'm just beginning to understand mineralizing.....but if the goal is to make it more humus.....can't you just buy something like that already? and not have to soak and rinse and dry the soil over and over? i think i'm looking for an easier way haha. i am thinking about mineralizing it....but not sure yet. thanks for reading!


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## Michael

Jeri, you have had unusually trouble-free results with Miracle Grow Organic Choice.

Yes, some people have used prepared humus as substrate, and it does eliminate the need for mineralization. The main difficulty comes from finding such a product and its cost. Humus has very high CEC, but less available nutrients, so the tank may need supplemental fertilization sooner. Along the same line, some people report good results with worn castings. But we don't have much information about these substrates, and results may vary a lot depending on the source or brand used.

Before you use either in a big tank, why don't you set up some experimental jars or bowls?


----------



## mik778866

Error


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## PlaysInDirt

Hey Guys,

So has anyone used straight Earthworm Castings as a humic component?

Or Glacial Rock Dust to increase CEC?


----------



## Eutexian

PlaysInDirt said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> So has anyone used straight Earthworm Castings as a humic component?


im intending using worm castings as a "base layer" in my next project. I have already mineralised the soil - just waiting for the tank itself to be delivered. Im also going to save some of the castings and insert it into the dirt layer of my current tank. (by making a 'mud' then freezing it in an ice cube tray and then inserting those.)

here in the uk you can buy two form of worm castings - humus. and 'pure'. I'll be buying pure.

fwiw I've seen it recommended in the past and 'boiled', frankly i see little point in doing that and a whole load of reasons not to - least of all destroying the bacterial content. Im not so worried about freezing some of it as my current tanks substrate is fairly mature and 'alive'. but the new tank? boil it and in so doing - sterilise it? no way.


----------



## qwe123

I'm going to be testing this soil at some point in the near future:









If anyone is near an Agway, it's only $3 for the bag! Any thoughts on what people would want me to watch for in a trial tank?


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## Michael

Cool! Pure humus is very stable, but does not contribute much in the way of macronutrients. The tank *might* need some supplemental fertility, but don't do it unless you see that you really need it.


----------



## qwe123

If the plants seem to suffer from lack of nutrients, I'll just tear the tank down since I'm moving in a year. This is purely a test. But I'll watch for deficiencies, and try to remember to post pictures often in a thread I'll make for it.


----------



## Eutexian

qwe123 said:


> If the plants seem to suffer from lack of nutrients


... increase the amount of fish food and reduce the level of gravel cleaning to the minimum that 'offends the eye'.


----------



## Michael

Henry, I've moved your post to its own thread. I hope you don't mind!


----------



## boet

Hi! I purchased MTS from an online source (I tested it with my water in a small shrimp bowl this winter and all was fine) I have read several posts here relating to the need for a mix with the MTS. I do have Miricle Grow Organic soil available to me. Should I mix the MTS 50/50 with the organic potting soil? I am setting up my 50 gal as a Walstad.

Thank you!


----------



## Michael

No. A mix is recommended if the soil is too rich, and MGOC is the usual offender. If your soil worked well in the shrimp bowl you don't need to mix it with anything.


----------



## boet

Michael said:


> No. A mix is recommended if the soil is too rich, and MGOC is the usual offender. If your soil worked well in the shrimp bowl you don't need to mix it with anything.


Thank you Michael  Plants are growing wonderful in the shrimp bowl.


----------



## weatherwatcher

I am about to start setting up my planted tank. I have been keeping big fish a big Oscar a a 15 inch plec and three severum for the last 4 years. The new tank I got 2 years ago had a mishap where the silicon seal failed and dumped most of the water on the floor. The fish have found a new home at my friends house.
I am going to start some moss's of with a dry startup. The wife want let me fill it as I have to go into hospital for a weeks respite care at the end of the month, so the dry start is my only option.
What I am going to use for the soil, is some of my old cacti soil that I tip out of the pots when they either die of old age or are potted up. The soil has no added fertilizers, some of it may be around 6 or more years old, I have some new bagged potting compost with no fetilizers added to it just made from garden waste, wood etc, would it be a good idea to add a small amount of the bagged soil just to give the cacti soil a bit of a boost. I have tried the cacti soil in my 1 foot tank in pots and the plants are going fine in it. Don't want to waste my time getting it wrong by just using the old cacti soil if it is not going to give the plants enough to feed off. I am sure that the extra fish food used would probably be enough to bring the soil back to life with adding anything else, ie; the new comercial soil to it.


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Mixing the cactus soil with the bagged compost is probably a good idea. I suggest that you at least do a few soak and drain cycles with the mixture. This is a little insurance against excess fertility, and will remove any annoying floaters.


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## weatherwatcher

I intend to do that as the bagged compost has very large amounts of wood in it, I will sieve it first as I always do this when I use it with my catci as some of the wood in the bagged mixture are quite large. Last time I us3e the sieve with a very fine setting and this was a terrible mistake as the compost set like concrete when I put it in pots for my cacti seedlings and lost them all.
So I will only you a medium sized setting to remove most of the large bits and let the water do the rest for me.


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## weatherwatcher

I have at last managed to get the tank lifted back onto its stand. Being disabled, this caused me a real headache, must give my thanks to the 2 lads from the shop across the road from me, who came to my rescue and they both had the needede muscle to lift it for me.
It is one big heavy beast, even with nothing in it. Good job I have a concrete floor and not a wooden one. Just a few marks to remove off the inside of the glass, now you can see it in the sunlight. Then it will be time to get the moss's off to a dry start. They should hopefully be well on their way by the time I come home from hospital, in the second week of August. So now it is just sit back and wait time.


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## weatherwatcher

The tank is now starting to take shape. I have put the soil and gravel in, the moss's I sent for have been planted. I was very suprised on how fast they started to pick up once they where put in the substrate and the lights where switched on, they have been floating in my one foot tank for 4 days.
When I planted them they where all lying down on the gravel but within 3 hours with the lights on they had started to stand up. Never tried a dry start before so this is new ground to me. Just hope it works as well as the other, dry set ups I have seen on the internet and on here.
So if all goes well I should be able to put the other plants in place around the middle to end of August and fill up with water.
Then let things settle before I start adding any fish, just to make sure that the parameters are ok first.


----------



## Moledude

Hello everyone 

Quick question: I would like to achieve a fairly high sloping ground, but this would require me to bank the substrate up at least 3-4 inches, if not more. In order to keep to the recommended 1-1.5" dirt rule, could I use a coarse gravel underneath the substrate to achieve the slope and then put my 1" dirt on top of it?


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

A better option than coarse gravel is to use stone, tile, or bricks on the bottom. Then put soil and cap on top of that. The reason is that soil layer will work down into the coarse gravel over time, possibly creating anaerobic conditions later. This doesn't always happen, but why take the chance?

Use a fairly heavy material for the cap. It will not slide down the slope as easily as lighter or finer material.


----------



## dontwork

Michael said:


> Post #156-07/28/2013
> Yes, you can put the rocks in before the soil and cap. In fact, this is better because you do not want a layer of soil underneath large rocks--it can become anaerobic. Small rocks are not a problem.


Hi, I am new to the site. I just tore down my starter 10 gallon plant and fish tank (not Walstad) and with the help of my knowledgeable nephew I will be setting up a 20 gallon high (on order). I stumbled across Diana Walstad's book (to be delivered tomorrow) and then found this thread. I asked my nephew what he knew about this and he was extremely enthusiastic about creating a Walstad tank. He knows a lot about it but never created one.

Because I am extremely annal I like to research everything I can before trying something new. I have read every line of this thread and have taken many notes. The advice in this thread is a very valuable resource for me.

As we set it up I will probably have many questions but right now I need some clarification.

I understand the soil requirements and the cap, etc. but I want to put some large lava rock in as decoration and to affix some of the plants to it. Can I put the lava rock on top of the cap or do I need to bury that just like you state concerning rock in the post above?

Thank you for your help. So happy to find this website!

Rita


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## EdC

This thread is incredible. Thanks everyone, for the work you have done in creating this resource.


I am looking to plant a 40g hex, low tech. Currently the tank houses three African cichlids (who will be moved) and has been up and running for four years, with a play sand bottom.

When I am mixing up my Miracle Grow Organic and clay (looks like I might be able to get Safe-T-Sorb through Staples), should I throw in some of this sand as well? I figure whatever bacteria and microbes may be in it after four years in the tank can't hurt, right? I have some red fluorite which I plan to use as my cap.

Also, when it comes to mineralizing the soil, how thinly do I need to spread it? I am in an apartment, with a kid and two cats, so the tarp thing just isn't going to happen. The thing is, the soil in my large pots on the balcony is bone dry within a few days, so I shouldn't need to spread it too thin to dry. Or do I need it spread thin to increase aerobic activity? Can I stir it to create somewhat of the same effect?


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

You can re-use the sand from you existing set-up. There is no great advantage in doing so, but it might help a little to establish the beneficial microbes.

Spreading the soil in a thin layer speeds the process, but the same thing will happen in a thicker layer, just more slowly. Try not to have the layer more than a few inches thick.


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## EdC

Thanks!


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## dontwork

I did not see an answer to my question permalink post #305. Was it already answered somewhere in the thread?
Thank you,
Rita


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## Michael

dontwork said:


> I did not see an answer to my question permalink post #305. Was it already answered somewhere in the thread?
> Thank you,
> Rita


It depends on the size of the stone you want to use. If it is large, and would cover a big area of the cap and soil under it, it could contribute to the soil becoming anaerobic under the stone. Anything fist sized or a little larger would certainly be safe.

If you want to use a large stone, it would be better to only cap material under it and no soil. Or use one of the space fillers described for creating slopes. Like so many things, this is a matter of judgement. If you are using low organic content natural soil, or mineralized soil, you can get away with a bigger stone over soil. Also if you are going to plant species with very strong root systems near the stone, that will also help to prevent anaerobic conditions under it.


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## dontwork

Thank you Michael. I appreciate your response and certainly need all of the advice that I can get.

Rita


----------



## EdC

Okay, I might have this completely backwards, but I am adding something like SafeTSorb for its ability to absorb nutrients, and make them available to my plants in a safer, more gradual way, correct? So say I am soaking my Miracle Grow and pouring off the ammonia-laced chicken manure water, before either drying the soil, or simply re-wetting it for another soak. Should I pour that overly nutrient rich water onto my SafeTsorb and let it marinate a bit, thereby taking in some of those nutrients? Seems a shame to give up all that richness in the soil when I could trap some of it for later use.

Or am I looking at this completely wrong?


----------



## Michael

The problem with Miracle Grow is that it is just much too rich in nutrients and too high in percentage of organic matter (100%) to begin with. So rich that we usually soak and drain it AND mix it with Safe-T-Sorb. The Sate-T-Sorb retains its ability to store and release nutrients indefinitely, so it provides this function for the life of the tank.

If you don't want to waste the manure "tea" that comes off the Miracle Grow, water your garden or house plants with it.


----------



## Crooks

Hey!



dwalstad said:


> if you bury it under 3 inches of gravel or sand, it may go anaerobic and kill plants.


I don't understand this statement. Like, from what I understand, mass transfer is almost nonexistent in soil. There's a few millimeters of micro aerobic milieu and from then on, oxygen is depleted. So it's anaerobic from the first, like, centimeter on anyways.

Now plants provide their soil with lots of oxygen for nutrient consumption but that should also only affect a few millimeters around the zone of their roots at the most. Lot's of plants of course might aerate the soil completely. So the soil they experience is never anaerobic anyways.

But if the depth of soil is too great this is an issue? How does this work in nature? And if it is because of organic content that problem solves itself in a year at the most.

I don't get it


----------



## Guck

Crooks said:


> Hey!
> 
> I don't understand this statement. Like, from what I understand, mass transfer is almost nonexistent in soil. There's a few millimeters of micro aerobic milieu and from then on, oxygen is depleted. So it's anaerobic from the first, like, centimeter on anyways.
> 
> Now plants provide their soil with lots of oxygen for nutrient consumption but that should also only affect a few millimeters around the zone of their roots at the most. Lot's of plants of course might aerate the soil completely. So the soil they experience is never anaerobic anyways.
> 
> But if the depth of soil is too great this is an issue? How does this work in nature? And if it is because of organic content that problem solves itself in a year at the most.
> 
> I don't get it


Anaerobic conditions in tanks creates lots of talk. My understanding is that it's ok for as long as you don't disturb the soil. It's a natural process. Heavy root feaders (Amazon, crypts) will minimize this a lot as well as fauna that shake up the soil for as long as it's consistent.


----------



## rmsalaysay

Hi Michael,

I'm about to start this NPT, Walstad Method to my 5 Gallon, My concern when using a cheap soils (MTS) + pottery clay (CEC?), do I still need to use the (dolomite & Muriate of potash) as mention in the MTS Thread, or just MTS + Pottery Clay (don't have bucks for cat litter cost 4-5$) because i'm on a budget. I'm really new to this one so i want to clarify some things before i proceed this saturday.

I'm not going to dose CO2, fertz or anything in this Aquarium or any capsule fertilizer, nothing at all, so I just want to know about those Dolomite & Muriate of Potash. (is it really prerequisite)

and what size of gravel do i need for this to work, i'm think using 2-3mm black gravel for capping.

Bottom Layer 1" or 3/4" & Cap 1"


----------



## Michael

rm, welcome to APC!

The potash is a source of potassium. Some people find that soil substrate tanks develop potassium deficiencies over time. This has happened to me, usually after 12-18 months. So I use a source of supplemental potassium when I set up a new tank. For me, it is a lot easier to get potassium chloride, sold in grocery stores in the USA as a salt substitute for people on low-sodium diets. Other people don't have this problem. It probably has to do with local water chemistry.

Dolomite is limestone, and it is used to keep the pH of the soil from falling too low, and to help stabilize pH in the water. This is a problem for people with soft, acid water. My water is hard and alkaline (basic) out of the tap, so I don't use the dolomite.

Short answer: you do not absolutely need both. Your soil layer is not too deep (a common mistake!), so pH problems in the soil are less likely. If your plants develop potassium deficiency later, it is easy to correct.


----------



## Zoomer

Hi!
First of all this is a great thread with lots of useful info.
Second, im planning to setup 20gallon tank. I have a bag of "ancient forest humus". It has very fine texture, no sticks or rocks. But its very light, and while it settles on bottom overnight, any water movement clouds it up. Going to mix it with safe-t-sorb 50/50. For cap i got some gravel 1/4-1/2" size. My question, is it too big? Having troubles with finding fine gravel. Should i get sand from petco instead? Would use pool filter sand but dont like color


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Yes, that gravel really is too big. You can cap with Sate-T-Sorb itself. Rinse it well, but realize that it will never rinse completely clean. Be careful not to disturb it when filling the tank, and any cloudiness will settle out or be removed by the filter in a day or two. I use it mixed with the soil and as a cap in most of my tanks.

You can use aquarium gravel from any of the chain stores if you can find a color that you can tolerate.


----------



## Zoomer

Thanks. I already set up one 10gal. Used 50/50 mix of humus soil and oil-dri(safe-t-sorb analog) capped with ~1 inch of same oil-dri. Water is almost clear. I expected it be more cloudy
Only problem now, i forgot to add source of calcium into soil. My tap water is soft. Any cheap ways to fix it after setup? Crush an oyster shell or two on top of gravel? Or maybe insert pieces of chalk under substrate?


----------



## Michael

You can scatter oyster shell or any other calcium source over the gravel. Most people put a mesh bag of it in the filter so the little white pieces don't detract from the appearance of the tank.


----------



## rmsalaysay

i have a garden soil that is now currently mineralizing in the roofdeck i'm about to go the problem is that i haven't found the muriate of potash which is 0-0-50 and the sulfate potash is 0-0-40 in any hardware like, acehardware, wilcon, handyman here in philippines, but i have see a 15-15-35 mixture of powder fertilizer, it said the 15% nitrogen - 15% magnesium & 35% potash, is this safe for the fish if i make it in my walstad tank or NPT?, its really hard for me to find the muriate of potash here in the philippines and alternative for this?

my material is. 
1. Garden soil (mineralize for 1 month)
2. Crush pot clay (i still didn't find the powder so i crushed it with hammer)
3. muriate of potash (nothing T_T) . please? and alternative?.


----------



## Michael

rm, look in the grocery store for salt substitute used by people on low-sodium diets. This is potassium chloride, and can be used instead of muriate of potash. You don't need much, just a light sprinkle on the bottom of the tank before the soil goes in.

Don't use the powdered fertilizer, it is much too strong for a soil substrate.


----------



## rmsalaysay

Michael said:


> rm, look in the grocery store for salt substitute used by people on low-sodium diets. This is potassium chloride, and can be used instead of muriate of potash. You don't need much, just a light sprinkle on the bottom of the tank before the soil goes in.
> 
> Don't use the powdered fertilizer, it is much too strong for a soil substrate.


there is a lot of different kind of fertilizer in hardware store but no luck finding in any garden how's that happen. anyway, i have found again, maybe i'm wrong but is this 46-0-0 ? which is said nitrogen?

Salt substitue for diet is like a rock-salt or sea-salt only?

i have see people doing this but its not NPT or walstad but they are using cooked soil and they put osmocote in the soil? is that even consider to be walstad or i can do it also to make my plant grow faster? (i maybe offtopic from this i'm so sorry i dunno what to do since i am lack of material needed T_T)

i have found a link which is i think available in local store the brand name is PANSALT this is the web http://www.pansalt(dot)ph/ if you can confirm me this it has a magnessium and chloride but low in sodium is that correct? if i try this and then i can now proceed.


----------



## Michael

A fertilizer labeled 46-0-0 is VERY high nitrogen. Do not use it in your tank.

The salt substitute is not rock salt or sea salt. If you can't find it, leave it out and set up the tank with your soil and clay.

Osmocote is used as a fertilizer because it is slow release, and therefore safe. I suggest that you not use it at first, use soil only. You can add Osmocote later if you need it.

Sorry, the link does not work for me.


----------



## mik778866

Michael said:


> For me, it is a lot easier to get potassium chloride, sold in grocery stores in the USA as a salt substitute for people on low-sodium diets


Hi. Is not the chloride toxic? Wont KNO3 or kno4 be better?


----------



## Michael

Not in the amounts we are talking about. Yes, the nitrogen compounds would be better, but rm is having a very hard time finding anything that will work.


----------



## rmsalaysay

Michael said:


> A fertilizer labeled 46-0-0 is VERY high nitrogen. Do not use it in your tank.
> 
> The salt substitute is not rock salt or sea salt. If you can't find it, leave it out and set up the tank with your soil and clay.
> 
> Osmocote is used as a fertilizer because it is slow release, and therefore safe. I suggest that you not use it at first, use soil only. You can add Osmocote later if you need it.
> 
> Sorry, the link does not work for me.


i just didn't link the web directly because i may failed to follow the rules by posting website. http://www.pansalt.ph/ this is it.

it said is "PANSALT® is rich in the essential minerals Magnesium and Potassium - unlike common salt that only has Sodium Chloride, the primary cause of high blood pressure that can lead to heart attacks, strokes and kidney damage in 22 out of 100 Filipinos. PANSALT® has further been found to improve the therapeutic effects of treatment drugs for hypertension."

i'm sorry i did not shorten the pharapgraphs.

i maybe avoid the 46-0-0 , i can now proceed without anything, if i may find the PANSALT in the market as salt substitute then that one will be my last ingredient,

thank you so much michael, i will established my 5.5 gallon for now, and if this is right then proceed to my free 55 Gallon. michael again thank you so much <3

greetings from philippines,
Roy \m/


----------



## rmsalaysay

i have found chemical company which is they sell potassium chloride 3$ / kilo, i assume this is the same with the salt substitute. i will return after setting up my aquarium (i'm a real noob) sorry sir michael.


----------



## Michael

RM, if you are dealing directly with a chemical company, try to get one of the other potassium compounds that mik mentions: KNO3 or KNO4.

The Pansalt also sounds like what you want.


----------



## rmsalaysay

Michael said:


> RM, if you are dealing directly with a chemical company, try to get one of the other potassium compounds that mik mentions: KNO3 or KNO4.
> 
> The Pansalt also sounds like what you want.


thank you so much sir michael i have really found the pansalt i maybe not going to stick to the chemical company as of i want to test it first only in my 5.5 gallon, then if success i will do it also in my 50 G tank, ^_^ sir michael thank you so much in this long trend i don't know someone like you is still active. thank you.


----------



## Michael

You're welcome! Doing a small test tank first is a very good idea.


----------



## rmsalaysay

Michael said:


> You're welcome! Doing a small test tank first is a very good idea.


i have found the pansalt is a really expensive than the chemical i found, it is thrice the price is around 6-7$ per 450 grams compared to pure potassium chloride which is 2$ per 1 kilo.


----------



## weaselnoze

First post here. Just wanted to get some thoughts on this.. 

I am making a planted 4gal bowl. I wanted to pretty low tech with some easy plants, eventually add a few cherry shrimp once the bowl is mature enough. 

In doing research, I've decided to go dirted. I bought miracle grow organic and a bag of 20-40 grit Black Diamond blasting media. I was all set in my mind until I came across this thread...now I'm second guessing. 

I get the concept of mineralizing the soil in order to remove a good amount of organic material, and plan on doing a few soak and pour off rounds. I don't know that I'm going to go through the process of drying/wetting after that. Afterall, this is a pretty small, low tech fish bowl. 

As costs on this small pico project are rising RAPIDLY, I'm trying to shave off a few steps to keep costs down as well as leftover materials (ex. I'm using approx one cup of a 50lb bag of blasting media as a cap and the rest of the bag becomes useless). 

I realize that cutting corners is usually frowned upon, but I'm here to ask for advice doing so. IF I choose to just use the 'partially' mineralized soil and a 1 inch cap of black diamond, am I really going to cheat myself of a successful bowl? If I decide to just use these two materials and skip the Safe T Sorb type products, should I at least do a mix of 50/50 soil and black diamond and then still cap with ~1inch of the black diamond blasting media?

Thanks in advance. This seems like an extremely knowledgeable and helpful forum.


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

I can understand why you don't want to buy 50 lb bags of stuff for a 4 gallon bowl, LOL. I suggest that you do as much of the mineralization process on the MGOC as you have patience for. Then mix the soil half and half with the blasting medium, and use a thin layer of the mix--1/2" would be enough. Then cap with 1" or more of the blasting medium.

This will keep the excess nutrient problem from MGOC to a minimum. And after all, it is only a 4 gallon bowl. If you have too many problems you can tear it down and start over without much trouble.


----------



## weaselnoze

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> I can understand why you don't want to buy 50 lb bags of stuff for a 4 gallon bowl, LOL. I suggest that you do as much of the mineralization process on the MGOC as you have patience for. Then mix the soil half and half with the blasting medium, and use a thin layer of the mix--1/2" would be enough. Then cap with 1" or more of the blasting medium.
> 
> This will keep the excess nutrient problem from MGOC to a minimum. And after all, it is only a 4 gallon bowl. If you have too many problems you can tear it down and start over without much trouble.


Thanks for the straight forward, no bull reply Michael. This puts my mind at ease....for now!


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## Eutexian

You might find this page written by Walstad herself useful.. she doesn't mineralise the soil.

http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf


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## Michael

It's true that Diana did not mineralize the soil when she wrote that article. But the formulation of MGOC may have changed since then. And we know for certain that different manufacturing plants in different regions produce different versions of MGOC, so weaselnose is most likely not working with the same thing that Diana was 5 years ago.


----------



## weaselnoze

Michael, I set up the substrate last night. I went with a sloped base of black diamond media .5" to 1.5" in the back. Topped with about .5"-.75" of 50/50 mix of MGO and blackdiamond and capped with about .5" of more black diamond. Here's to hoping that the substrate isn't too deep in the back to cause any anaerobic spots!


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## s2man

Since this thread is to share our results with various soils, I'll throw in what I recently did in my new 125; This is my first soil-substrate tank. There are so many suggestions/recipes out there! I didn't want to cover the bottom with $40/bag stuff, so finally just mashed all suggestions together.

I mixed one bag of Eco-Complete and one bag of florite and spread them across the bottom for their clay content. Then I blended 2 parts Nature's Care (NC) organic potting soil by Miracle Grow, 2 parts peat moss and one part NC organic top soil. 10 gallons of that brought the substrate to 2" thick and I thoroughly mixed it all again. Lastly, I topped it with about 1/2" of average aquarium gravel.

I got 100+ plants, 23 species, on aquabid.com. Not having time to properly identify them all and scape the tank, I planted most of them down the center, planning to move shorter plants to the forgrounds (see-through tank) later. I did plant the dwarf sagittaria in the forground. Sorry, this has nothing to do with the soil, but explains why the tank looks the way it does...

Day 4 - 









Day 18 - 








Just before I pruned the fast-growing stems and gave them the my LFS as a gesture of good will ;-)

I did not pre-mineralize the soil, I just let it do its thing in the tank. The plants loved the N compounds given off during mineralization. The tank is currently on day 32, fish have been added, and the plants are going bonkers. Who'da thunk plants would like soil so much? LOL With a horticulture background, I can't believe I didn't do this long ago.


----------



## redbee

Hello guys,

Thank you all for this thread. I'm new here and I am from Brazil.
(sry about my bad english, I will do my best =)

I have some doubts about wich soil I can use. Because here in Brazil I have no brands you are talking about.

I saw someone saying I can use humus, right?
Can someone help me to choose the humus to buy?
Look, I found this (this site is the Brazilian ebay like):

http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...ico-humus-farinha-de-osso-torta-de-mamona-_JM

Description translatedroduct obtained through the transformation of cattle manure, foliage and vegetables using red worms from California.

30% Red Earthworm Humus
15% bone (flour)
15% mammon pie (Do you know what it means?)

2% Nitrogen Total
8% Phosphorus
8% Organic Carbon

Will I need to do some steps to prepare the humus?

When you talk about "clay", I can't understand the type of clay. Is that? 
http://nutriplan.com.br/ptb/produtos/argila-expandida-media-1-2kg

Last, about the cap, I don't like pool sand or gravel. I would like to know if I can use it:
http://www.mbreda.com.br/produtos/areias-especiais/areia-perolada-white-sand-mbreda

[EDIT] Can it be used? 
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...-camaroes-up-shrimp-sand-2-kg-ph-65-d-550-_JM

Thank you guys!


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## s2man

Welcome, redbee. Those nutirents sound way too high to me. But I`m new to soil substrate tanks. Please wait for an expert reply.


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## Z1234

redbee said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Thank you all for this thread. I'm new here and I am from Brazil.
> (sry about my bad english, I will do my best =)
> 
> I have some doubts about wich soil I can use. Because here in Brazil I have no brands you are talking about.
> 
> I saw someone saying I can use humus, right?
> Can someone help me to choose the humus to buy?
> Look, I found this (this site is the Brazilian ebay like):
> 
> http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...ico-humus-farinha-de-osso-torta-de-mamona-_JM
> 
> Description translatedroduct obtained through the transformation of cattle manure, foliage and vegetables using red worms from California.
> 
> 30% Red Earthworm Humus
> 15% bone (flour)
> 15% mammon pie (Do you know what it means?)
> 
> 2% Nitrogen Total
> 8% Phosphorus
> 8% Organic Carbon
> 
> Will I need to do some steps to prepare the humus?
> 
> When you talk about "clay", I can't understand the type of clay. Is that?
> http://nutriplan.com.br/ptb/produtos/argila-expandida-media-1-2kg
> 
> Last, about the cap, I don't like pool sand or gravel. I would like to know if I can use it:
> http://www.mbreda.com.br/produtos/areias-especiais/areia-perolada-white-sand-mbreda
> 
> [EDIT] Can it be used?
> http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...-camaroes-up-shrimp-sand-2-kg-ph-65-d-550-_JM
> 
> Thank you guys!


For me the one I dug out form the yard worked the best.

There is no need to overworry if it contains enough nutrients. If your dirt can grow grass for years without fertilizers, probably its good enough and contains enough nutrients for your aquarium. After all, you are not planting a vegetable garden.

Its always good to have a small bowl test beforehand. If it works there, it will likely work in your tank.


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## netcode

I have read the book, I have read 100's of threads but I still have questions.

Let's get back to basics, rather than debate the different brands.

It seems clear that high % of organic matter in soil is not what we want. So, what is a suitable % of organic matter in a soil substrate? 

Mineralized Top Soil (MTS) uses cheap topsoil, and doing research on topsoil, I can pretty much bet its low organic matter, and sand. At what % should you start mineralizing? My best guess is that you should most likely minerlize over 20%.

What basic ingredients should be avoided? I hear peat is a cause for concern as it can have an effect on your pH, are there others?

I have read that mixing with clay can potentially release toxic substances (somewhere in this thread Diana spoke to it) - but mixing 5-10% clay seems to be standard in the dirted tank world.

Also the type of clay is up for big debate. A lot seem to use clays from art stores but all of these seem to be self-harding or airdry which contain polymers, not raw laterite etc. 

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## s2man

Diana`s choice of organic potting soil is very high in organic material and probably contains some peat. `It benefits plants by making nutrients in the soil solution move available and by protecting plant roots from metal toxicity` (p124). `... Bacterial decommposition of soil organic matter would release CO2 intot the overlying water. This natural CO2 fertilization would inevitably stimulate plant growth`. `... the growth of both submersed and emergent plants increases on organic-rich sediments (p134). 

Diana uses either organic potting soil (OPS) or organic garden soil, and says they should not be mixed except for adding a little well-decayed compost if the soil is deficient in organic matter (pp`137, 138 ).

I mixed peat with my OPS when I set up my soil-based tank (I hadn`t gotten Diana`s book yet), and the pH has steadily risen from 7.0 to 7.8.

IIRC, Tom Barr likes peat in his substrate, but we are discussing the Walstad method ;-)


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## netcode

s2man said:


> Diana`s choice of organic potting soil is very high in organic material


Then why is there so much talk about "mineralizing" and avoiding soils that are high in organic matter? It is literally constantly talked about through this thread.


----------



## Z1234

netcode said:


> Then why is there so much talk about "mineralizing" and avoiding soils that are high in organic matter? It is literally constantly talked about through this thread.


I'd guess that "mineralizing" may be more desirable with CO2 enriched tanks.


----------



## Michael

Organic matter can be fresh, partially decomposed (compost), or fully decomposed (humus). Fresh organic matter releases large amounts of nutrients and CO2 as it decomposes when submerged. This is way too much for the stable conditions we want in aquaria.

At the other end of the scale, humus releases very small amounts of nutrients and CO2 and is quite stable. It is excellent for use in aquaria, but may not release enough nutrients and CO2 to jump start the tank in the way we may like.

So purpose of mineralizing topsoil is to hasten the decomposition of organic matter present, moving it from a less stable condition to a more stable one. Like so many things in planted tanks, it is a question of balance: you want enough decomposition to occur to produce suitable amounts of nutrients and CO2, but not too much.

True natural topsoil rarely contains more than 5% organic matter, and a lot of that is humus. In contrast, almost all of the potting soils and other soil mixes we can buy bagged from the big box have MUCH higher percentages of organic matter, and most of that is relatively fresh. Some of these mixes are 100% organic matter, and contain manure. This is great for a tomato plant, but creates havoc in an aquarium.

So that is why we mineralize and add other inorganic components to aquarium substrate: we need to reduce the excess fertility and CO2 production, and make the substrate stable enough to be safe.


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## s2man

netcode said:


> Then why is there so much talk about "mineralizing" and avoiding soils that are high in organic matter? It is literally constantly talked about through this thread.


I do not know, since we are discussing the Walstad method. Maybe they meant _fresh_ organic matter, which is a no-no, or perhaps folks are mixing various tecniques in this thread. As Tom Barr says, Pick one method and stick with it.


----------



## redbee

Michael said:


> At the other end of the scale, humus releases very small amounts of nutrients and CO2 and is quite stable. It is excellent for use in aquaria, but may not release enough nutrients and CO2 to jump start the tank in the way we may like.


But if I use humus with DSM (10 weeks)? Then I will have no problem about CO2, right?

What do you think about that humus and cap?

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## Z1234

Michael said:


> Organic matter can be fresh, partially decomposed (compost), or fully decomposed (humus). Fresh organic matter releases large amounts of nutrients and CO2 as it decomposes when submerged. This is way too much for the stable conditions we want in aquaria.
> 
> At the other end of the scale, humus releases very small amounts of nutrients and CO2 and is quite stable. It is excellent for use in aquaria, but may not release enough nutrients and CO2 to jump start the tank in the way we may like.
> 
> So purpose of mineralizing topsoil is to hasten the decomposition of organic matter present, moving it from a less stable condition to a more stable one. Like so many things in planted tanks, it is a question of balance: you want enough decomposition to occur to produce suitable amounts of nutrients and CO2, but not too much.
> 
> True natural topsoil rarely contains more than 5% organic matter, and a lot of that is humus. In contrast, almost all of the potting soils and other soil mixes we can buy bagged from the big box have MUCH higher percentages of organic matter, and most of that is relatively fresh. Some of these mixes are 100% organic matter, and contain manure. This is great for a tomato plant, but creates havoc in an aquarium.
> 
> So that is why we mineralize and add other inorganic components to aquarium substrate: we need to reduce the excess fertility and CO2 production, and make the substrate stable enough to be safe.


Thanks Michael for the explanation.

If I got this right, this is what it means in practice:

If you start with a soil that has tons of organic matter, then you may want to "mineralize" it to some extent. To what extent?

If you have a soil with more reasonable organic matter/compost/humus ratio, then just dump it in and there you go.


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## netcode

I would tend to agree with you Michael, as what you say does make sense. We want stable. Finding a suitable soil that is low in organic matter seems difficult. The lowest I can find is somewhere around 20%. I have no ability to mineralize, as I live in a cold environment. So I am thinking I sift out the large particles and just throw it in.


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## redbee

Here in Brazil I found a vegetal organic soil today. They tell me that was made with 33% palm tree and then mixed with natural soil.

What do you think about that?
Will I need to prepare that soil or just remove large particles and throw it in?


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## s2man

Is the palm well composted or raw? If you cannot recognize plant parts, I would just throw it in  If it is raw material I would let it decompose for a while. 

Also, make sure they have not added inorganic fertilizers. You just want plain compost or soil.


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## redbee

s2man said:


> Is the palm well composted or raw? If you cannot recognize plant parts, I would just throw it in  If it is raw material I would let it decompose for a while.
> 
> Also, make sure they have not added inorganic fertilizers. You just want plain compost or soil.


They tell me the palm is composted.
No inorganic fertilizers!

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## Michael

Redbee, if you are doing the dry start method, then the plants get all the CO2 they need from the air and you don't need to worry about it.

Z123, humus and compost are organic matter. The higher the percentage of organic matter in the soil for the substrate, the more it should be decomposed. So you would want to mineralize it. Personally, I like for all the organic matter to be decomposed to the point that you can't recognize the original material at all.

Netcode, 20% organic matter should be fine. If the organic matter is in big chunks, screening it out is a good option.

Everyone, if you are worried about the organic content being too high, or too fresh, then mineralizing it is the safest choice. You can also mix it with some type of inorganic substrate to lower the percent of organic matter. Safe-T-Sorb, Turface, or flourite are all good for this. My favorite substrate is mineralized topsoil from a friend's vegetable garden (no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides), mixed half and half with Sate-T-Sorb or Turface.


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## s2man

Michael, I appreciate your thorough yet concise posts. I tend to reduce my thoughts to a few sentences, and my point is often not clear. 

RE: garden soil. You are fortunate to have a friend who will let you take soil out of his vegetable garden. I could not bring myself to take soil out of my garden. I have spent too many years building it up. I kick-started it with 20 yards of compost. Since then I have fed it two large, round bales of hay per year, in the form of mulch, plus more: grass clippings, food scraps, green sand, bone meal, kelp meal, etc.. It all composts in-place and the worms till it in for me. It would have made great substrate for my new tank. 

I may be crazy, but I spent the $ for commercial substrate rather than remove my precious. LOL


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## Michael

My vegetable gardening friend is also a planted tank enthusiast, and has been very generous to members of our local club with his wonderful soil. We ARE lucky!


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## garystank

I read through almost this entire thread... I have learned so much, but wanted to add my experience. I have a 120 gallon tank. On a whim i set it up with miracle grow and sand capped substrate. I am having some issues, but all in all the tank seems to have cycled and plants are thriving. I am about 10 weeks in so far. 

I didn't mineralize my soil... I also didn't buy organic. This may prove a very bad decision, but we will see. So far the only real issue i am having is that my nitrates continue to rise. I have been able to keep them below 20ppm, but i have to change the water once or twice a week. (30% water change)

Snails came attached to some plants that i purchased, and have helped control the algae. I bought some loaches to help with the snails and they died... prob the nitrates. I was sad...

Right now i only have a couple of small barbs in the tank... they seem stressed. not sure if it is due to water quality issues from the non-organic miracle grow, or something else. 

the tank looks beautiful and is growing like crazy. I just hope that sometime in the near future the water will be viable for fish. 

any thoughts on this>


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## redbee

Can someone make the jar test for MGOC?


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## s2man

Gary, my only thought is the non-organic MG has inorganic fertilizers in it, way too much for aquatic plants. Check the bag for NPK %'s. If it has the added nutrients, I would guess keep up the water changes until the fish look happy. Or, perhaps some sort of chemical filtration. Others may have better ideas on dealing with this. 

My Nature's Care (w/MG logo) organic potting soil lists NPK as 0.18-0.10-0.12 from composted chicken poop and meat meal. The main ingredients are composted sphagnum moss, coir, and palm. 

redbee, done. I have set up a jar of NCOPS and one of NC organic garden soil. Results in 24hrs.

Potting soil is very light, fluffy stuff; Like half-done compost. I has to be light/loose for potted plants to allow the water to drain and not just become mud when you water the pot. 90% of it is floating right now in my jar.


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## Michael

Gary, I agree with S2 on the soil.

Redbee, one thing that will show up in the MGOC jar test is tea-colored water from the tannins.


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## redbee

Michael said:


> Gary, I agree with S2 on the soil.
> 
> Redbee, one thing that will show up in the MGOC jar test is tea-colored water from the tannins.


But will the tank have this tea-colored water?


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## Michael

Yes, unless you do many soak and drain cycles before you use the soil.


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## garystank

Thanks all... Ill take a look at the bag and inform what it says... So far the plants are doing great. For the first two weeks the Ammonia was off the charts. I added some bio and it eventually dropped to zero, then the nitrites were off the charts... again, patients paid off and it to dropped to zero. I assume that this was the cycle and eventually the plants will catch up to the nitrates. 

Tannins were pretty heavy at first. However, they reduced with water changes... Man have i wasted a ton of water... with a 120gallon tank... its been a chore. Ill keep up with it an eventually post a picture. 

Thanks for everyones reply. Ill post the info on the soil tomorrow.


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## s2man

redbee, my potting soil substrate made my water very tea colored. Everything I read says the tannins are good for the fish. I have even added taninis for some fish, in the past. But, I agree, the tea-colored water is not visually appealing. 

Gary, yep, that is the cycle; ammonia>nitrite>nitrate. In my latest tank, ammonia spiked, then nitites went off the chart. When it was done I ended up with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 40ppm of nitrate. But the plants have eventually soaked that up and nitrate is < 20ppm, now. 

I can sympathize with the water changes on a large tank. Its not like a single-bucket job on a smaller tank.


----------



## s2man

I'm not sure how this helps, but below are the results of the jar test on commercial potting soil and garden soil. My take on a jar test is to determine the ammounts of sand, silt and clay...

Potting soil is on the left and garden soil on the right. you can't tell in the picture, but I would say the garden soil is mostly silt with some organic matter. Yes, the tannins are high in the potting-soil jar.


----------



## redbee

s2man said:


> I'm not sure how this helps, but below are the results of the jar test on commercial potting soil and garden soil. My take on a jar test is to determine the ammounts of sand, silt and clay...
> 
> Potting soil is on the left and garden soil on the right. you can't tell in the picture, but I would say the garden soil is mostly silt with some organic matter. Yes, the tannins are high in the potting-soil jar.


Thank you @s2man!
Is the potting soil 100% organic matter?
Which is the preferable soil for Walstad method? Full of organic matter or less organic matter?


----------



## s2man

Yes, the potting soil appears to be 100% semi-composted plant matter. 

Diana Walstad says to use either potting soil or garden soil, but do not mix them. She says the acid from the decomposing organic matter in the potting soil will release high levels iron and other metals from the garden soil (mineral type soil). She also says good aquatic soil in nature contains 20% organic matter, but that is in the form of completely decompoed humus, not raw material like the potting soil. 

I put my potting soil in the tank, saturated it and let it sit over night. Then I capped it with gravel. I had very few floaters, as compared to the jar test of potting soil. And I have not had no floaters or cloudy water when I transplant. 

I used mostly potting soil and peat moss in my latest tank (I hadn't gotten Walstad's book yet, and did it 'wrong' ) and expected the water to go acidic. To my surprise, the pH has risen! I wish someone could explain that. : >) But, my plants are doing great. 

redbee, there are MANY recipies/recommendations/formulas out there for soil substrates. I would say, just find some nice soil you would like to have in your garden and plant your tank! You could go crazy or broke trying to find the 'perfect' substrate. 

The hard part for me was getting rid of the biological filtration and trusting the plants to absorb the fish's waste. As I said in an earlier post, this is an unlearning curve for me. Anyone want to buy a couple of Emperor biowheel filters? hehehe


----------



## agrant77

Hi all,

I’ll be setting up a 60 gallon aquarium shortly, and want it to be planted. Currently have a 29 gallon with plants, but the plants were added after the original set up once I realized I couldn’t get rid of all contaminants from the water solely through filters.

I’ve read through most of this thread, and while a good amount is over my head, here’s my proposed approach. Please let me know what you think:

1. Use Black Gold Organic Potting Soil (MGOC is not available for purchase in Virginia it seems…)
2. I live in an apartment, so no real ability to mineralize it (hence not buying regular potting soil) so will soak and rinse and repeat that for a few days.
3. Mix the soil with Seachem’s Flourite (50/50 mix) - have this mix be 1.5” deep
4. Top it off with Floracor (is this too much and should I just use 

In the alternative, would going with something like ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia or Eco Complete be “simpler” (though pricier) so to say?

Thanks!


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

1. Does the potting soil have a list of ingredients on the package? That will help us determine its suitability.
2. This will help a lot, and is the next-best thing to mineralizing.
3. Good idea, will reduce the organic content of the substrate while keeping good cation exchange capacity.
4. I'm not familiar with Floracor. From a practical standpoint, you could just cap with more Flourite.

Aqua Soil behaves somewhat similarly to a soil substrate in the aquarium, although it may not last as long and will not generate natural CO2. So it is the pricey but simple alternative. Ecocomplete has some micronutrients, but does not have macronutrients, so will not give the plants the initial burst of fertility that soil does. Like Aquasoil, it does not generate natural CO2.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.


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## agrant77

Thanks!!

This is all it says (from Amazon):

Ingredients: The mix is regionally formulated and contains a blend of 45-55% Canadian Sphagnum peat moss and (one or more of the following: compost, composted peanut hulls, composted rice hulls, forest products, pumice or cinders) perlite and composted worm castings.

And from the Black Gold website: Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, bark, compost, perlite or pumice or cinders, earthworm castings, and organic fertilizer. Plus RESiLIENCE®!


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## Michael

Hmmm. . .sounds pretty rich. Perlite will make a mess in the tank because it floats, but soaking and draining should get rid of it. Do as many soak and drain cycles as you can, definitely mix with Flourite, and maybe reduce the soil/Flourite layer to one inch.


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## agrant77

Thanks Michael! I'm going to expand on my proposed setup under its own separate thread either later tonight or tomorrow. Thanks again!


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## MariusS

Hi there,

I'm currently reading Diana's book and I'm fascinated. Although new to the hobby, I'm ready to set up a 12 G NTP tank, but I'm not sure what substrate to use. I live in Romania (Eastern Europe) so no chance to get MGOC. These are my options:
- topsoil from my garden (now covered only with grass)
- one of the bagged soil from Agro CS. Here's the company catalogue in English
- one of the bagged soil Florabella from Klasmann-Deilmann

A little help, please.
Thanks!


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## dwalstad

From Romania? Cool!

I looked at the Agro CS catalog. The substrate for growing tomatoes and peppers (Product #00823A on page 9 of their catalog) has a natural fertilizer and no perlite balls. It looks reasonable.

Now that it is spring and you can set up an unheated bowl, why not try out the soil in a smaller vessel? For hobbyists who have not yet seen my article 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp,' I recently put it onto the aquarium page of my book writing website.

Article shows how to set up a 1-gallon (3.8 liter) bowl with plants. It is an easy, inexpensive way to get started with plants and learn how to work with soil. (If you succeed, you'll have plenty of adapted plants to start a larger tank with fish. If you fail, you're not out that much. 

For enterprising hobbyists who want to try something a little more advanced, I also describe setting up a small tank with the Dry Start Method (DSM). Here, the plants are grown emergent (in air) for the first 2-3 months before adding the water and the shrimp to the tank. Both of the article's methods involve working with soil and have tips on what to select.


----------



## MariusS

Hi Diana,
I'm honored by your quick answer. Thank you for your time.

I searched online for the substrate you pointed, unfortunately can't find it in Romania (I think it's only available in Czech Republic). But I found at page 32, in the Agro CS catalog, two Bio substrates, one for vegetables and one for medicinal plants that I can find in my home-improvement store. Both have the same composition: peat, coconut fibre, clay and natural limestone; organic fertilizer N-P-K (10-4-4). Is it ok to have limestone in the substrate. My tap water has a pH around 7.20. Will limestone give a higher pH over time?

Great article about the unheated bowl. After deciding which soil to use I will test it in my 1.5 G mini-tank. Planing to buy a water test kit to keep track of pH, hardiness, ammonia and nitrites/nitrates.


----------



## dwalstad

MariusS said:


> Hi Diana,
> I found at page 32, in the Agro CS catalog, two Bio substrates, one for vegetables and one for medicinal plants that I can find in my home-improvement store. Both have the same composition: peat, coconut fibre, clay and natural limestone; organic fertilizer N-P-K (10-4-4). Is it ok to have limestone in the substrate. My tap water has a pH around 7.20. Will limestone give a higher pH over time?
> 
> Great article about the unheated bowl. After deciding which soil to use I will test it in my 1.5 G mini-tank. Planing to buy a water test kit to keep track of pH, hardiness, ammonia and nitrites/nitrates.


I don't think the limestone will hurt. I'm assuming that the manufacturer added reasonable amounts for gardening. The pH of even alkaline soils will gravitate to neutral once submerged (my book, page 130). And there are many factors that control water pH.

I am very glad to hear that you are trying things out in a small tank. Good luck!


----------



## Sammuel

Hi,

Thanks for informations you share with us. I would like to rebuild my 105 gallons tank (59"x20"x20"). I found a topsoil in France and I would like your opinion about it.



It's an organo-mineral substrate : Topsoil + green compost + vegetable matter + algae + dolomite
Dry matter : 60%
Organic matter : 20% (of the dry matter)
Net weight of the bag : 55 lb (25kg)
pH : 7,2

It's exclusively composed of naturel matters according to the bag (without fertilizer). Else, there is a little Scotts label on the bag 

Do I have to add clay with this topsoil ? or just sands ?
50% topsoil + 50% sands ?
40% topsoil + 40% sands + 20% (green) clay ?

Thanks for your advices.


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC! Your soil looks and sounds good just the way it is. If the organic matter content is only 20%, I don't think you need to add clay or mix the soil with anything. The sand isn't necessary, but will not hurt either.


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## lflaco2000

Very useful fays of reading, thanks to all contributors!

I started my first 10 gal planted tank 4 weeks ago, it is now fully cycled, I used regular potting soil capped by sand pool filter, it seems to be going well so far...

Here todays pic:


----------



## dwalstad

Looks like a promising start.

I have just a couple suggestions during this tricky time when your soil is still in chaos.

On the right in photo, it looks like a major air stone is going full-tilt. Some aeration is good, especially during the first 6-8 weeks. During this time of rampant decomposition, soil bacteria may consume so much oxygen that fish may be endangered. However, too much aeration can easily and quickly remove all CO2 resulting in poor--or no-- plant growth. To find the balance, I would reduce the aeration and check the fish in the early morning before lights go on. If they're gasping at the surface, then you can bump up the aeration. Judging from the photo, I think you could try reducing the aeration considerably, perhaps 80-90%. Remember that the better your plants grow, the better *they* will oxygenate the water and the less reliance you will need on an air stone.

If you haven't noticed some real plant growth during this first four weeks, then I would definitely reduce the aeration.

Less important... If you haven't done a water change, I would do a small one (20-30%). While doing it, you could remove that slight scum at the water surface. I remove scums like this by scooping the surface with a cup and pouring it into a bucket. You may have to towel-wipe the cup each time, because I notice that the scum will stick to the cup and go right back into the tank when I do the next dip. A minor frustration...:mmph:

Hope this helps. If you can, let us see a picture in a few weeks to judge plant growth. Thanks for posting.


----------



## lflaco2000

Thanks a lot for taking the time to review the post!

I am removing the air bubbles an will see how the fish reacts.

The aponogeton on the left is 2 weeks old froma bulb, and is doing great, it has 3 flowers on the surface, I see it as a good sign. I also tried to pull the hair grass, and it seems to be firmly rooted, its slowly expanding, but its alive at least.

Do you think adding a DIY CO2 will improve it? or the decomposing organic material in the soil is enough?

Thanks again.


----------



## dwalstad

A new potting soil should provide tank with *plenty* of CO2. If your fish show problems from lack of oxygen, you could run the pump for a few hours at night.

That's pretty cool about the Aponogeton. Now I see the spikes with blossoms at the surface in your picture.


----------



## lflaco2000

Thanks, I will leave "artificial" CO2 off the table for now.

Yes, it looks good, it have 3 spikes now.

Regards


----------



## lflaco2000

I removed air pump, and also reduced water circulation through the filter, excellent results, no ammonia spike so far! It clearly means ammonia is being controlled by plants and bacteria (not the one in the filter). 

I still need improvement in some plants roots system, some are still too weak, hope this change helps.


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## dwalstad

Have you tried gently poking the substrate with a long, narrow, sharp object-- building nail, straightened out paper clip, etc?

Poking substrate will counteract H2S, a toxin generated in organic soils that will stunt/kill plant roots (my book, pp. 67, 152-53). See also Francesco's thread where we discussed this method.


----------



## lflaco2000

Yes, I am poking substrate, and also removed some sand, looks like I had too much over the soil. I can tell the difference in plants grown from one day to another. Basically what I understand now is that in "El Natural" way of keeping thanks, the more natural we keep it, the better for the plants.

Thanks for all your advice.

Regards


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## lflaco2000




----------



## CricketMclean

xenxes said:


> When I first started... I baked it at 350F for an hour (whole house smelled like dirt!), sifted through in a strainer carefully to take out anything wood/perlite that might float.
> 
> After that yeah.. I just dump it in, my latest tank I grabbed old soil out of a planter outside and threw it in, capped some gravel and sand, and added water. I like the biodiversity in dirt, lots of nematodes (little white/clear worms) to compost down waste--think earthworms and garden compost. A lot of aquarists go crazy and try to nuke the tank with every chemical they have and end up killing the beneficial fauna, along with everything else they have.
> 
> First few weeks is some work, I netted out floating bits and pieces, did a water change or two to get rid of tannins. Now this latest tank is 3 weeks old--it's stabilized and doing alright under a crappy low light. I threw in some mutant Rili shrimp and they berried within a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a medium light natural tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly here's a high light natural tank, you can keep plants red and thriving without CO2 injection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All dirt + sand/gravel. No CO2. Biodiversity (worms+snails+shrimp, some with fish). Densely planted. Minimal (once a month at most) water changes. 150-200 TDS. 5-6 GH.
> 
> It doesn't have to be Miracle Grow ORGANIC, it should just be a POTTING soil (less fertilizer/ammonia packed). I like Organic best because it has the fewest perlite/woodchips/stuff that would float into the water that you have to net out.


How do you add the worms. I'd love to do that.


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> Cool! I actually farm snails for my paradise fish, striated loaches, and assassin snails. But I don't have any Malaysian trumpet snails (MTS)--I keep asking, but no one will give me any!


 you kidder


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## CricketMclean

garystank said:


> Snails came attached to some plants that i purchased, and have helped control the algae. I bought some loaches to help with the snails and they died... prob the nitrates. I was sad...
> 
> >


Aww sorry. 
That last sentence made me smile


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> *
> 
> The simplest ways are a thin soil layer, patience, and water changes. This soil is hot stuff, you do not need much! How deep a soil layer to use depends on size of tank and types of plants, but I would never use more than 1.5". For beginners and small tanks, 1" or less is plenty. Patience is necessary to allow the biological filter to develop properly and absorb the ammonia. Water changes help with that, and also remove the tannins. Eventually the big pieces become saturated with water and no longer float.
> 
> The more sophisticated ways to deal with these problems involve processing MGOC in some way before you use it. A quick and effective process is "soak and drain". Put the soil in a big bucket, cover it several inches with water, and stir well. Let it sit over night, then carefully pour off the floaters and the brown water. Fill, stir, and let sit over night again. Repeat the soaking and draining cycle until you see no floaters and the water is reasonably clear, or until you can't wait any longer, LOL. Seriously, three complete cycles is usually enough to make a big difference. This method will result in a loss of total volume of soil of 25-30%, so start with more than you need for the tank.
> 
> Another way to process MGOC is to mineralize it. This process is described fully in several great threads in the library forum. Mineralization greatly speeds decay of organic matter into a very stable form called humus. Humus does not release ammonia into the water, and is unlikely to become anaerobic.
> 
> And there is one last tip for using MGOC or any other highly organic soil: mix it with an inorganic substrate that has a high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Examples are laterite, Flourite, Turface, plain cat litter (no perfume, antimicrobials, or clumping agents), and Safe-T-Sorb. Remember, natural soil is almost never pure organic matter. Mixing the organic matter with inorganic high CEC substances means that the ammonia and other nutrients produced are held in the substrate where plant roots can use them, but where they will not harm fish. And by reducing the percentage of organic matter, you reduce the likelihood of the soil becoming anaerobic. I like a 50/50 mix. Phil Edwards first gave me this advice*


*
Thank you Michael for this great advice. I read through the entire comments (that I can see in mobile view which it seems is different than in full view) and posted a bit along the way lol. Then I re-read your initial posts. 
I began soaking miracle grow a couple nights ago with a somewhat modified method between the soak rinse and pour method and the mineralizing method of soak and dry. It's going a little something like this. 
I soaked a large amount in a large tub and sat there agitating it with my youngest daughter (which essentially was two kids playing in the mud) for about an hour. Then I poured off the top layer into another tub and poured out the bottom layer onto a large trash bag to dry out in our 107° sun. After a few hours of soaking we played again in the mud and did the same thing. Around dinner time I poured off the top of the third bucket of soil into the bushes this time and left what was very little left on the bottom in a cracked bucket to dry out with the other batches. Before bed I put all the soil left (2 of 3 were dry) back into buckets of water so the neighborhood cats didn't decide to further fertilize my soil while we slept. They like my yard because the ground is often moist and cool due to water changes lol. This morning two of the buckets had only sticks for floaters so I picked those off and they are drying in the sun again. The third had quite a bit of sludge on top and this time my citrus tree got the spoils. This batch is drying out in the broken bottom bucket.

1. For how long do you think I should continue this process before I can fill my aquarium again?

I bought a bag of kitty litter (from Wal-Mart). It says 100% fuller's earth. I intend to rinse it several times as well unless advised otherwise.

2. Before I open the bag is this type of clay ok in the aquarium? Do you still recommend 50/50 with this type of clay and using the process I described above for the length of time that you recommend?









3. In a 10g aquarium for 6 to 8 ellasomma Okefenokee do you think 1" soil mix plus 1" sand?





(Until recently okefenoke and Gilberti were considered the same species)
Aren't they just adorable!

I'd really like to get a colony of worms started in there for the fishes to eat. Does anyone have an help/advice for that?

This forum has been a godsend even if it has caused me to begin my aquarium again twice now lol. Thank you !!!

Forgot a question!
I asked for a salt substitute at Walgreens this morning and was given this. Will it be ok Or should I head to the grocer? It was before coffee







*


----------



## Michael

1. You've already done a lot, and could use it now. A further step would be to spread it in a thin layer and let it sit moist and exposed to air for a few days.

2. Yes and yes. You don't need to rinse the cat litter since it is going in the soil layer.

3. Yes.

I can't help much on the worms. If your local store has live black worms, those seem to be most likely to successfully colonize an aquarium.

It would be better if the salt substitute was 100% potassium chloride, but that has become to hard to find. What you have will work, or you could skip it until you find pure KCl and just add it to the water. You can also use a liquid potassium supplement made for planted tanks. Potassium deficiency usually does not become a problem until the tank is over 6 months old. Depending on how much potassium is in your tap water, it may never be a problem.

Great video, they are extremely cool little fish.


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> 1. You've already done a lot, and could use it now. A further step would be to spread it in a thin layer and let it sit moist and exposed to air for a few days.
> 
> 2. Yes and yes. You don't need to rinse the cat litter since it is going in the soil layer.
> 
> 3. Yes.
> 
> I can't help much on the worms. If your local store has live black worms, those seem to be most likely to successfully colonize an aquarium.
> 
> It would be better if the salt substitute was 100% potassium chloride, but that has become to hard to find. What you have will work, or you could skip it until you find pure KCl and just add it to the water. You can also use a liquid potassium supplement made for planted tanks. Potassium deficiency usually does not become a problem until the tank is over 6 months old. Depending on how much potassium is in your tap water, it may never be a problem.
> 
> Great video, they are extremely cool little fish.


I can't thank you enough! I'll continue with your suggestion until I've run out of patience. I doubt it will last long because playing in the mud is way more fun than watching dirt dry. I'll see if I can find a better substitute. Thank you thank you <3


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## asad_200113

I've heard of people using earthworm castings with good results. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> 1.
> 
> It would be better if the salt substitute was 100% potassium chloride, but that has become to hard to find. What you have will work, or you could skip it until you find pure KCl and just add it to the water. You can also use a liquid potassium supplement made for planted tanks. Potassium deficiency usually does not become a problem until the tank is over 6 months old. Depending on how much potassium is in your tap water, it may never be a problem.


I found this. No salt. I actually grew up with this. My dad never kept salt in the house. At least potassium chloride is the first ingredient listed 



asad_200113 said:


> I've heard of people using earthworm castings with good results.


 interesting. I'll have to search it and see what I find. Thank you


----------



## Michael

That salt substitute is better. Where did you buy it and what is the brand?

I am about try an earthworm castings substrate, my little friends in the worm bin have been busy. The organic matter in worm castings is thoroughly decomposed, so the full mineralization process isn't necessary. The potential problem is that the castings will be too high in nutrients--too "rich". So I am doing several soak and drain cycles to remove excess nutrients and tannins.


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## hoppycalif

My current set-up has worm castings in the soil sub-layer, about 1/4 or less of the mix. I'm pleased with how it is working, but, to be honest, I have no idea what any one ingredient is actually contributing. I found my worm castings on Amazon, as I recall.


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## Michael

Hoppy, thanks for that information. I plan to mix the rinsed castings half and half with Flourite, and use a thinner than usual "soil" layer. I will report how it works in a few months.


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> That salt substitute is better. Where did you buy it and what is the brand?
> 
> I am about try an earthworm castings substrate, my little friends in the worm bin have been busy. The organic matter in worm castings is thoroughly decomposed, so the full mineralization process isn't necessary. The potential problem is that the castings will be too high in nutrients--too "rich". So I am doing several soak and drain cycles to remove excess nutrients and tannins.


The salt is from fry's. kroger. Not sure if you have them where you are. It's king sooper's in Colorado. The brand is "no salt" it's what we grew up on  if you know a particular brand that is better I can find it. Most likely. I'll wait to see how your tanks work out on the worm casting.


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## CricketMclean

hoppycalif said:


> My current set-up has worm castings in the soil sub-layer, about 1/4 or less of the mix. I'm pleased with how it is working, but, to be honest, I have no idea what any one ingredient is actually contributing. I found my worm castings on Amazon, as I recall.


 hoppy do you have an opinion on led bulbs?


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## hoppycalif

CricketMclean said:


> hoppy do you have an opinion on led bulbs?


If you mean the conventional looking, screw-in bulbs that use LEDs to "make" the light, no, I have never experimented with any of them, so I have no opinion on them. The bulbs I have done a lot with are these: 









Several years ago I measured the light intensity with several wattages of these, installed both vertically above the tank and horizontally above the tank.


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## CricketMclean

hoppycalif said:


> CricketMclean said:
> 
> 
> 
> hoppy do you have an opinion on led bulbs?
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the conventional looking, screw-in bulbs that use LEDs to "make" the light, no, I have never experimented with any of them, so I have no opinion on them. The bulbs I have done a lot with are these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Several years ago I measured the light intensity with several wattages of these, installed both vertically above the tank and horizontally above the tank.
Click to expand...

You've left me hanging. What did you find?


----------



## hoppycalif

I accumulated a lot of data, and finally concluded that it is very hard to get data that is useful for predicting what others will get using those bulbs. I used an ordinary 10 gallon light, made for screw in bulbs, which I modified to take two bulbs with workable reflectors, to get data for horizontal bulbs. I also modified a cube style tank top to take two of those bulbs, and tried various reflectors settling on ones made of simple aluminum sheet (sold as aluminum flashing), and shaped like \_/ with the bulb in the middle. Those worked best, and doubled the light intensity.

I also used bell shaped, clamp on work light reflectors, to hold the bulbs vertical over the tank. The problem with those was that the amount of light you get depends on how much of the bulb extends out below the edge of the reflector. The more it extends out, the less light you get. And, that depends on who makes the bulb - how big it is for each wattage.

So, it is a complicated subject, and I had hopes of going back to it and rethinking it and doing more experimenting. But, that means buying a lot of bulbs, which just costs more than I want to do now. And, I got interested in LEDs and DIY LED lights, so I never have returned to that subject. There is a lot of data in my posts on The Planted Tank, but not here.


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## hoppycalif

duplicate post


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## Michael

I love those spiral compact fluorescents, and remember Hoppy's posts on The Planted Tank. I've still using them over several tanks. But they are being phased out in favor of LED lamps with screw-in bases. I have not tested those, and also can't find them in 6500K, which is the color temperature I prefer for appearance.


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## CricketMclean

hoppycalif said:


> So, it is a complicated subject, and I had hopes of going back to it and rethinking it and doing more experimenting. But, that means buying a lot of bulbs, which just costs more than I want to do now. And, I got interested in LEDs and DIY LED lights, so I never have returned to that subject. There is a lot of data in my posts on The Planted Tank, but not here.


 well thank you for replying and putting me out of my misery. My bulb does not extend past my dome so hopefully that is good. I did order the bulbs you recommended last night from home depot. 


Michael said:


> I love those spiral compact fluorescents, and remember Hoppy's posts on The Planted Tank. I've still using them over several tanks. But they are being phased out in favor of LED lamps with screw-in bases. I have not tested those, and also can't find them in 6500K, which is the color temperature I prefer for appearance.


 I found some on Amazon but some members from another forum didn't recommend them. I'll share them here but they are probably wrong.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00NPVOSK4/ref=ox_sc_act_image_4?smid=A1I8ZH8EHJ6J6O&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B071FQT75N/ref=ox_sc_act_image_3?smid=A3S4SVMWTDK1H2&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004QZYTCU/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?smid=A12H7QVHDXC62S&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06W2MFZ2R/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A2ETQIF3LSW1BA&psc=1

One of them is actually 5000k I think.

Have any of you tried these?http://www.ebay.com/itm/141878713671

I've heard good stuff on them but not to use them on their highest setting. I wanted to get one of them for my 10 gallon.


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> 1. You've already done a lot, and could use it now. A further step would be to spread it in a thin layer and let it sit moist and exposed to air for a few days.
> .


Couple questions. 1 could I just crush the potassium chloride tablets for salt water softeners? And 2 how big a deal is it if I accidentally used miracle grows organic garden soil instead of potting mix ?


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## Michael

1. Yes.
2. Probably a good thing because I understand that the new version of the potting mix contains perlite, which floats like styrofoam.


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. Probably a good thing because I understand that the new version of the potting mix contains perlite, which floats like styrofoam.


 thank you. You're such a help.


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## shane.holcomb83

Has anyone here used the Marical Grow Nature's Care organic soil before? Any input is appreciated. Thank you. 

Edit: I would like to use it 50/50 with florite black like mentioned in the very beginning of this post. And this will be my 1st dirted tank. 

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## Michael

I can't find an ingredients list for this soil on line, but it is fertilized and has "WaterConserve" whatever that is. Try to find a simpler (and cheaper) product. If you use this soil, it will need preparation--at least several soak and drain cycles. And it is a very good idea to mix it with the Fluorite.


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## shane.holcomb83

Michael said:


> I can't find an ingredients list for this soil on line, but it is fertilized and has "WaterConserve" whatever that is. Try to find a simpler (and cheaper) product. If you use this soil, it will need preparation--at least several soak and drain cycles. And it is a very good idea to mix it with the Fluorite.


There is a brown bag at home depot don't remember the name it started with an E. I actually believe I saw the same bag in another post and someone said it was a great choice. And I think it was very cheap.

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## Dale-CT

@Michael
Do you have any thoughts on, or experience with a Cal Aqua Labs product called "Black Earth Premium"?
http://calaqualabs.com/blackearthpremium/

I am still struggling to find a suitable topsoil that does not cloud the water and found this Black Earth at a LFS. I realise it's not exactly within the ethos of El Natural but thought I'd give out a try for a first planted tank. 
Is it a viable alternative to topsoil?


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## DutchMuch

i know cal aqua labs makes really good stuff.


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## hoppycalif

The El Natural method is based on using a natural soil as the substrate. That soil contains organic stuff in it that help make the method work as it does. The Cal Aqua soil is more like ADA Aquasoil, not natural at all, in that it was baked to make the gravel-like texture, and to mineralize the soil. If you live in an area with wooded areas, or farm land, or other vacant land, and which is not a former site of a gas station or other business where the soil has been badly contaminated, you can just dig some soil from the ground, remove the sticks and stones, and use that as your soil. Otherwise, I would keep looking for really cheap bagged topsoil.


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## Pamala7

Help! Can not find Miracle Grow Choice Organic potting soil anywhere in my area of GA. Is there a section showing suitable substitutes? Sorry if this has been covered but just joined this forum


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## wojtek76

Pamala7 said:


> Help! Can not find Miracle Grow Choice Organic potting soil anywhere in my area of GA. Is there a section showing suitable substitutes? Sorry if this has been covered but just joined this forum


Try this one it's organic and easy to find.










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## DutchMuch

they just stopped selling MG organic. everywhere.


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## Michael

Miracle Grow is renaming all their products, some marketing genius is responsible. But please, everyone, YOU DO NOT NEED MIRACLE GROW! Many other cheaper bagged soils will work just as well if not better.


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## DutchMuch

I use that new eco scraps for the 40b, well I used MG but I mixed it in.


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## abdb

DutchMuch said:


> I use that new eco scraps for the 40b, well I used MG but I mixed it in.


The ingredients in eco scraps natural and organic potting soil currently at Target are: processed forest products, coir, perlite, and compost (compost made from plant materials and food waste).

I know the perlite isn't great for a tank, but other than that can this be used as-is for a NPT after a few soak/drain cycles? If not, what should I add? kitty litter?

Also, is play sand ok for a cap, or is something coarser like pool filter sand better?


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## DutchMuch

well ill answer Yes you can use eco scraps seeing as I used it (the perlite comes out when u do the washing cycles, I did 2 on mine within a day and added to the tank), and always use sand as a cap, but I use PFS personally.


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## Michael

adbd, welcome to APC! The ingredients you list are all organic matter except for the perlite which we hope will leave with the soak and drain treatment. 100% organic matter is not necessary or even beneficial. Adding some inorganic material is a good idea, especially a clay product. Kitty litter will work (no perfume, antimicrobials, clumping agents, etc.) if you can't find something better. I like Safe-T-Sorb from Tractor Supply, and I mix it half and half with the organic matter.

Play sand is very fine, and can contribute to anaerobic substrate. The coarser pool filter sand is better.


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## vvdo

wojtek76 said:


> Try this one it's organic and easy to find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have that exact soil in my tank, plants growing great.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## abdb

Thanks for the replies. I'll find some clay to mix in with it or maybe just get the Nature's Care stuff. Would lava rock pieces also work as an inorganic mix-in for the soil? I have some red lava rock that is about 1/2" but I could break it up smaller to mix in with the soil. I'm doing a 4 gallon tank (innovative marine nuvo pico 4 with the filter section removed), so I don't need much. 

To top the dirt I'll stick with the pool filter sand or maybe just use some 1/2" smooth pebbles I have.


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## Michael

Don't try to break up the lava rock, it's too much trouble and the fine particles can be dangerous if you breathe them. In a small tank just use a thin layer of soil, 1/2" to 3/4" would be enough.

The 1/2" pebbles are too large to be the only cap. If you want to sprinkle some on top of the pool filter sand for aesthetics that is OK.


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## wojtek76

abdb said:


> Thanks for the replies. I'll find some clay to mix in with it or maybe just get the Nature's Care stuff. Would lava rock pieces also work as an inorganic mix-in for the soil? I have some red lava rock that is about 1/2" but I could break it up smaller to mix in with the soil. I'm doing a 4 gallon tank (innovative marine nuvo pico 4 with the filter section removed), so I don't need much.
> 
> To top the dirt I'll stick with the pool filter sand or maybe just use some 1/2" smooth pebbles I have.


For top i used this:









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## vvdo

wojtek76 said:


> For top i used this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is much cheaper and 50lb bag if you can find it near you...









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## hoppycalif

I'm using Black Diamond blasting grit, too. The only disadvantage I have found is that the grains of it are very hard and will easily scratch both glass and acrylic. That only bothers me when I try to use a magnetic glass scraper.


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## DutchMuch

PFS is the only way I will ever go.


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## hoppycalif

DutchMuch said:


> PFS is the only way I will ever go.


If *black* pool filter sand was easy to find it would be the perfect top layer. But, many of us really, really want a black substrate, and I have never seen black pool filter sand.


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## wojtek76

hoppycalif said:


> I'm using Black Diamond blasting grit, too. The only disadvantage I have found is that the grains of it are very hard and will easily scratch both glass and acrylic. That only bothers me when I try to use a magnetic glass scraper.


When you using Walstad method you don't need use magic scraper.

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## Gerald

Use a single-edge razor blade, rather than magnetic scraper, in tanks with with blasting sand. Once your get iron dust from blasting sand on a magnet, it's very difficult to get off.


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## Michael

wojtek76 said:


> When you using Walstad method you don't need use magic scraper.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, yes you do, or some other type of glass cleaner or scraper. For soft algae touch ups, a magnetic scrubber will work, but eventually I always get out the single edge razor blade in a good handle.


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## wojtek76

Michael said:


> Sorry, yes you do, or some other type of glass cleaner or scraper. For soft algae touch ups, a magnetic scrubber will work, but eventually I always get out the single edge razor blade in a good handle.


I have 6 months fish tank and I never used scraper.

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## DutchMuch

Doesn't mean u shouldn't use one just cause u haven't
in all aquaria a razor or scrapper is necessary.


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## vvdo

DutchMuch said:


> Doesn't mean u shouldn't use one just cause u haven't
> 
> in all aquaria a razor or scrapper is necessary.


Depends on the look you want !

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## DutchMuch

Algae on the glass
no algae on the glass
Most prefer the 2nd option.


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## RIP

Quick question Michael, would Turface make a good cap as well? I can get 6 quarts for $17. Since my tank is only ~8 gallons I wouldn't need much so I could save money vs buying the Safe T Sorb. Also I read where you did an earthworm casting tank. I can get this really cheap locally and was wondering if that would make a good soil mixed with the Turface (mineralized of course).

Edit: Actually after some searching I found I can get 40 lbs of Safe-T-Sorb from my local Tractor Supply. Looks like I'll have some leftover!


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## Michael

Turface works well for a cap and to mix with highly organic soil. My favorite was the charcoal colored Turface, but they stopped making it. My oldest Walstad tank (7 years) was set up with Turface. I just don't the red colors now available. Turface has an advantage over Safe-T-Sorb because it is harder and slower to break down.

I did some experiments with vermicompost as a small percentage of the soil. It is too rich to use more than about 20% by volume. It did not seem to make any difference. I raise earthworms so the vermicompost was free--I wouldn't buy it for aquarium use.


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## RIP

Michael said:


> Turface works well for a cap and to mix with highly organic soil. My favorite was the charcoal colored Turface, but they stopped making it. My oldest Walstad tank (7 years) was set up with Turface. I just don't the red colors now available. Turface has an advantage over Safe-T-Sorb because it is harder and slower to break down.
> 
> I did some experiments with vermicompost as a small percentage of the soil. It is too rich to use more than about 20% by volume. It did not seem to make any difference. I raise earthworms so the vermicompost was free--I wouldn't buy it for aquarium use.


Thanks for the reply! The Turface I found was the "red" kind on Amazon. I have some time so I'll keep looking. Would Safe-T-Sorb work if I can't find suitable Turface? Good to know on the vermicompost. We get huge bags around here pretty cheap but I'm not trying to buy anything I don't need at this point.

If you mineralize soil does it still need to be mixed 1:1 with the high CEC medium?


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## Michael

Safe-T-Sorb will work very well, i have several tanks set up with it.

Mixing the mineralized soil with an inorganic high CEC medium is optional. I think it is important if you are working with an highly organic artificial "soil" such as most bagged potting soil mixes. I have mineralized home-made compost and used it with success, but always mixed it 50/50 with Safe-T-Sorb or Turface.


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## RIP

Excellent! Now I have a firm plan in place. Next step: try to find some dry rock locally and decide on a plant list. Thanks for all your help.


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## jixie007

Picked up Earthgro topsoil from Home Depot. The ingredients are "formulated from one of more of the following": peat, processed forest products, compost, ash, rice hulls, sand, native topsoil, bagasse, food processing waste.

This stuff is _super_ dark and _super_ rich (or 'hot' I guess you'd call it?). Very heavily, if not completely, organic material. I started doing a rinse cycle on it (not doing full mineralization), and planned to mix 50/50 with clay.

The thing is, this stuff STINKS. This is not my first NPT and I've used topsoil for other projects (bioactive snake tank). They never smelled this bad. It's a spoiled / decay smell, not a fertilizer smell. Part of me is really nervous about using this stuff. The other part of me is thinking "but decaying organic material is what feeds the plants, and this is going to be capped so it's not like your tank is going to stink".

What do you guys think? Am I being paranoid, or is stinky soil a red flag?

On a related note: if mineralization turns the soil to humus, is it possible to just buy humus at a garden center? A google search turned up only humus / fertilizer blends, but I've found soil / gardening consumables to be one of those things you're better off going to a physical store for.


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## Michael

Earthgro is usually one of the mixes with lower organic content. When I used it, the problem was that I lost 1/3 of the volume because it was chunks of wood that floated off during the rinse/drain process.

My best advice is to keep rinsing it until it doesn't stink anymore. If the smell doesn't go away, don't use it. Mixing it with clay or some other high CEC substrate will help.


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## Greendot

hello, I want to purchase this tank: 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009K0ZKAQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Take out all the media except maybe a few bio balls then use as Natural planted with a few fish, shrimp, and snails.

Search option for this thread isn't working for me so I can't find if this was addressed: will eco complete be ok? Or should it be only used as cap? If only as cap then what should be under it that is easily found?

I am more concerned with time than money here....

if eco isn't recommend at all then what what should I use that will be easy?


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## Sasanid

Hi All. First - thank you for great thread! And great knowledgebase. I read the thread some time ago and started preparation for my el Natural tank. 
I found unfertilized soil in a nearby garden center. It should be suitable for the purpose I thought, but... there is lots of Eisenia fetida (red wigglers) in it! They are very small and I'm unable to take all of them from the soil by hand. They do not float too. I tried to search the forum if they are a problem or not, but the searching tool on the forum thread do not work for me - some unidentified error pops up. 

Should I remove them anyway - maybe by sifting the soil? Or can I use the soil as it is? Will the wigglers cause ammonia or nitrate spike? Any of you faced with such issue? Please help.


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## Michael

Try shifting the soil and remove as many as you can find. They will survive for several days submerged, but will eventually drown. If there are a lot of them in the soil, their decomposing bodies could cause an ammonia spike.

I raise red wigglers for my fish and frogs, and have used castings in the substrate. But this was after separating the worms from the castings.


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## Gylen

Hello everyone,

I have a bit of a situation. I setup a dirted tank using the following potting mix:

https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.potting-mix-021-011-016---283l.1000125090.html

As per the following link:

https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=19026375

I found this thread later on and I realized only afterwards that this is NOT organic and contains Ammonium nitrate and Ammonium phosphate.

It's been running for 2 weeks (planted, filter, heater, no fish) and I haven't had any issues with ammonia spikes (I've added pure ammonia to bring it up to 4ppm for cycling). What do you guys think I should do? Is it dangerous to move forward with this?

Should I remove everything and start again? I'm a little bit worried right now that I really messed up.

Thanks for any guidance!


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## Sasanid

Thank you Michael. I will try to remove them.


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## hoppycalif

Gylen said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a bit of a situation. I setup a dirted tank using the following potting mix:
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.potting-mix-021-011-016---283l.1000125090.html
> 
> As per the following link:
> 
> https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=19026375
> 
> I found this thread later on and I realized only afterwards that this is NOT organic and contains Ammonium nitrate and Ammonium phosphate.
> 
> It's been running for 2 weeks (planted, filter, heater, no fish) and I haven't had any issues with ammonia spikes (I've added pure ammonia to bring it up to 4ppm for cycling). What do you guys think I should do? Is it dangerous to move forward with this?
> 
> Should I remove everything and start again? I'm a little bit worried right now that I really messed up.
> 
> Thanks for any guidance!


Welcome to APC!

I don't use the Walstad method, but I would go ahead and use that soil. A little ammonia in an aquarium isn't harmful to either the plants or the fish. If you wait 2-3 weeks after planting it and adding water to the tank, before putting any fish in it, it should work fine. The nitrogen fixing bacteria on the plants, filter and hardscape, should be enough to generate a big enough colony of those bacteria to keep the ammonia level low enough.


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## Gylen

hoppycalif said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> I don't use the Walstad method, but I would go ahead and use that soil. A little ammonia in an aquarium isn't harmful to either the plants or the fish. If you wait 2-3 weeks after planting it and adding water to the tank, before putting any fish in it, it should work fine. The nitrogen fixing bacteria on the plants, filter and hardscape, should be enough to generate a big enough colony of those bacteria to keep the ammonia level low enough.


Wow, that makes me feel so much better. I'll go ahead and stick with it then. Thanks so much!


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## dwalstad

There's lots of wiggle room using soil. It's never "do or die." I've started out with plenty of over-fertilized soils that still ended up working after the typical 2 month adjustment period. 

That said, I would suggest measuring nitrites. If nitrites and ammonia are low, the tank is probably just fine for fish.


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## Sasanid

Hi Diana. Thank you for comment. I have some possibilities of useing my lab titration equipment at work, as well as pH-meter, so I will definitely check ammonia and nitrites. I'm very, very interested in aquatic plants. Thanks to your book and this video: 




Thank you.
Krzysztof


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## Chimera

Hi, I was wondering what everyone’s opinions on Hortico All Purpose Potting Mix would be? Would it be necessary to mineralise and mix it with a clay?


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## Dude

I did some quick searching on it and can't find any information on what it's made with, other than that it's organic.


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## Michael

Can you post an ingredients list?


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## Stan510

I think any "major brand" potting soils will do. I even like Martha Stewart's as she puts in bits of lava in it (best for land plants of course). I think the key is to not put it 100% straight..but 70/30 with gravel on the bottom and THAT is capped with 2" of pure gravel.
Better is to use pots done that way submerged in gravels. Plants stay where you put them and makes rearranging a minor disturbance to the balance. A Sword in a pot does not have Sagittaria roots competing with it.


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## LeTort

Hi. As I live not in US or UK, our local brands and types of bagged soil are kinda different.
And all this veriety of fertilized, organic, peats, bio etc is confusing me a bit...

I`ve found two types of soil, that as I think can fit for Walstad method, but still not sure.

1. components: high-moor peat, low-moor peat, biohumus
75% organic metter
pH 5-7
N - 15mg/100g
P - 15mg/100g
K - 20mg/100g
Not fertilized

2. Ingredients: Brown humus based on bird guano, coconut fiber, wood fiber, compost, natural organic fertilizers.
100% organic metter
pH - 5-7
N - 50-350 mg/l
P - 200-700 mg/l
K - 500-1500 mg/l

So, if anyone who has experiense with setting up NPT can give me some advices with the choice, I`d apriciate it alot.


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## hoppycalif

I just finished a careful reading and re-reading of “Ecology of the Planted Aquarium”, the section about substrates. I think I learned a lot, and understand a lot more about the things I have seen going on in my aquarium. So, I decided to try to make a summary of that section, covering most of the most important parts. I'm doing this primarily to help me remember it, and so I can re-read this if I forget!

The two basic substrates are “gravel” and “dirt, with a gravel cap”. Gravel, whether it is pool filter sand, Flourite, or a higher cost material, relies on the water for most of the nutrients the plants need, and the plant roots have limited access to nutrients. “Dirt, with a gravel cap” provides a concentrated supply of nutrients, available to all of the rooted plants. It keeps the water relatively free of nutrients, and the substrate nutrients can last for years. Those nutrients are isolated from algae, making avoiding algae easier.

“Dirt”, better called topsoil, is made up of: mineral particles, most of which are primarily silicon, aluminum and iron, which are abundant in most topsoils; clay, which is also primarily aluminum, and silicon, in the form of tiny sheets of aluminum silicate; organic matter or humus, which is the final state of organic matter; precipitated inorganic matter, like calcium silicate, phosphates and carbonate, from shells of micro and other organisms; and microorganisms, like bacteria (mostly), protozoa, fungi, algae and yeast.

One positive feature of topsoil is that the humus particles have strong negative electric charges, which makes them bind to cations, like iron, potassium, calcium, etc. The anions associated with those cations tend to remain attached to their cations, so they, too, are bound to the humus particles. This means the nutrient ions remain in the soil and nutrient ions in the water tend to be adsorbed by the soil, making them also less available to algae.

The organic matter in the topsoil will decompose over time, producing CO2 as a byproduct. That CO2 seeps into the water and is available as a nutrient for the plants.

A good “dirt” substrate will consist of about an inch of topsoil, leveled, and covered with about a half inch of inert fine gravel, like pool filter sand, or Flourite, etc. Too deep a gravel cap can become too anaerobic and begin forming hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic. If we use topsoil from flowerbeds, yards, gardens, etc. it might have residual chemicals in it, that are possibly harmful to the fish or plants. This can be removed by using activated charcoal in the filter for a few weeks before planting the tank or adding fish - something rarely necessary.

The only things that should be added to the topsoil might be dolomite, for calcium and magnesium, and possibly phosphates. No other “fertilizers” should be added. The soil shouldn’t contain a lot of peat, because that tends to lower the pH of the soil excessively. No sulfates should be added, because they may be converted to hydrogen sulfate.

This substrate should be good for several years.


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## Dude

A soil or dirt with a smaller percentage of organic matter would be less likely to become anaerobic, right?


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## hoppycalif

Dude said:


> A soil or dirt with a smaller percentage of organic matter would be less likely to become anaerobic, right?


Ms Walstad mentions, in her book, that most substrates are anaerobic - little or no oxygen. That is normal. What we should avoid is excessive organic matter, like peat, which can lower the pH too much. Just ordinary dirt, like from a vegetable or flower garden will have a good level of organic material. There are potential problems with real dirt, but there are also potential problems with bags of "topsoil" in stores. We should avoid "soil" that smells like pine or cedar sawdust. And, no fertilizers, like manure should be in it. It should smell like real dirt. I have made mistakes by trying to boost the nutrient content of my real dirt by adding things like worm castings. We don't need that much nutrients for a non-CO2 tank.

I've been studying "the book" every day for several days now!


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## GadgetGirl

Just want to add my 2 cents. This soil is amazing! Black Kow Topsoil. I've used it twice. There's no sticks or junk in it, just good soil. It's not "hot" but I still rinse, dry, mineralize X3. I highly recommend!









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## Rodgie

Good Day to all, 

Just quick recommendation is what I need, I’m setting up a 2 gallons Walstad tank and I’m looking for an inorganic substrate to mix with my MGOPM. Obviously I only need a tiny bit. I’m having a hard time finding a small size of Safe T Sorb and all other suggested in the first page. 

Please let me know if there’s an alternative that I can get that’ll be just enough. I don’t wanna spend $25 if I only need about half a cup. 

Regards,
Rodgie


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## Michael

Just use some of whatever cap material you have chosen. It may not have the high CEC of Safe-T-Sorb, but the Miracle Grow will take care of that.


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## GadgetGirl

@Michael, since we're on the subject of SafTSorb / Oil-dri, have you ever noticed the pH plunge with these products? I put some Oil-dri in a glass with tap water. The pH went from aprox 7.2 to 6.4. It s actually fizzing. Checked the bag. 100% Montmorillonite clay. Do you think soaking and rinsing will alleviate this? Getting ready to move and want to use as cap. It's actually an Oil Dri formulation I've never seen.


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## Rodgie

@Michael

Thank you sir, my cap is 2-3mm natural substrate. I think I’ll just go on without the mix of high cec sub.


----------



## Michael

GadgetGirl, I almost never check pH. Only when setting up a new tank, and the pH has always been about what I expect given our tap water. But our tap water is heavily buffered and hard, with pH about 7.4 out of the faucet. If the water was soft, things might be different. Also, I rinse the Safe-T-Sorb several times in tap water before using it, so that may stabilize pH.

I've never used Oil-Dir. Does it work well?


----------



## GadgetGirl

Michael, we have very soft water GH about 2-3, pH around 7.0, 7.2. As best as I can determine Oil-dri and SafTSorb are the same. Have used it in the past, both mixed into soil and also as a cap. I have to admit I've never noticed this pH drop before. This is a slightly different formulation but still 100% clay. The only visible difference is it's a finer grain. I've just never seen it fizz! That was different! I may not use it. 
I have to drive 40 miles if I want SafTSorb!


----------



## dwalstad

I would not use a product clearly designed for mopping up oil. Who knows what's in it. Even if it's just clay, it could be an aluminum-rich clay, which will react with the organic soil to release toxic aluminum into the root zone. 

"Play sand" from the hardware store is a safe cap for soil.

If your water is that soft, I would make sure to add a source of calcium, much more important than CEC in an NPT. My book (p. 87) describes how to add calcium and other hardwater nutrients.


----------



## GadgetGirl

Thanks for your input Diana! Now that you mention it when I used it as a cap my plants didn't do very well. I just attributed it to other things. My current tank is capped with play sand. I do see Oil-dri and SafTSorb bring used a lot on the Internet


P. S. I just checked the pH again in my glass of tap water and Oil-dri and it has dropped to 6.0. I won't be using it!


----------



## Rodgie

Hi again to all,

Upon research I actually found this cat litter

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Special-...czr7z3_bRtnZuL0K3Hr4h43jFSb5MuTBoCk0EQAvD_BwE

It's Non Clumping and Unscented what do you think guys? Safe to mix it with my potting mix?


----------



## hoppycalif

Rodgie said:


> Hi again to all,
> 
> Upon research I actually found this cat litter
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Special-...czr7z3_bRtnZuL0K3Hr4h43jFSb5MuTBoCk0EQAvD_BwE
> 
> It's Non Clumping and Unscented what do you think guys? Safe to mix it with my potting mix?


What are you trying to accomplish by using the cat litter?


----------



## Michael

I think Rodgie is trying to find an inorganic high CEC substrate to mix with his very rich 100% organic potting mix. This helps to reduce sudden release of nutrients into the water in a new tank, and reduces reduces the chance of anaerobic substrate. Natural top soils very rarely contain more than 10% organic matter. Even forest soils average only about 5-7% organic matter. So if he was using a natural soil, this would not be necessary.

Most of my tanks are set up this way, using Safe-T-Sorb, both mixed with the highly organic "soil" and as a cap. I've never used Oil-Dri. Unfortunately, my native top soil contains a lot of colloidal clay. So unless I want the tank to look like chocolate milk every time I remove a plant, I can't use it. I have used soil from a friend's long established "Organic" vegetable garden with good results.

*Small Rant:* In these discussions it is important to distinguish between organic used in the soil science meaning, and capital O Organic as in the Rodale method and lots of meaningless marketing hype.

Rodgie, read the ingredients of the cat litter carefully to make certain that it doesn't contain any additives, like antimicrobials. I think that brand of cat litter has been used successfully in planted tanks, but you never know when Wallyworld will decide to change the formula.


----------



## Rodgie

Michael is correct, that’s exactly what I’m trying to achieve, I’ll be using the Miracle gro organic potting mix again. But this time I want to take advantage of michaels tipsof mixing a high CEC inorganic substrate. 

Unfortunately I have no Walmart nearby and that cat litter is not available for delivery either so scratch that. 

Noob question here, does clay have CEC in it? I found a Mexican potting clay, it’s rich in iron which I think will add benefits but I don’t see anything about CEC.


----------



## Michael

To the best of my knowledge, all clays have some CEC. If anyone knows differently, please correct me.


----------



## hoppycalif

Ms Walstad has told us that soil itself has a high CEC, probably because it consists of very small particles, meaning very large surface area. And, I think clay particles tend to be flat plates, giving them an even higher surface area.


----------



## Michael

Organic matter also has high CEC. But the potting soil is going to release so much(many?) nutrients that the excess will go into solution. After the organics have decomposed, they will contribute to CEC without overloading the system.

Humus and well finished compost have the high CEC without the excess nutrients, making them less troublesome for aquarium substrate.


----------



## mistergreen

CEC has more to do with electrical charge, anion, cation. Organics are negatively charged, attracting positively charge ions like Ca++, Mg++, etc...


----------



## dwalstad

Michael said:


> Unfortunately, my native top soil contains a lot of colloidal clay. So unless I want the tank to look like chocolate milk every time I remove a plant, I can't use it. I have used soil from a friend's long established "Organic" vegetable garden with good results.


Interesting. An established soil like your friends contains the sticky bacterial biofilms (my book, pp 69-71) that hold the clay particles together. That way, the clay particles stay clumped together and don't go into suspension. For those who live in clay-rich areas, find a crumbly top soil like Michael did to use for your tanks. If the cloudiness isn't too bad, put mesh material with a 50 micron pore size into the filters. It will pull the small clay particles out of the water.


----------



## Jnad

The soil i usually have been using is no longer in my lokal shop. Have some pictures of four soils that are availeble, can i use some of this soils?


----------



## Michael

Most of us will need translations to comment.


----------



## Jnad

Of course....my fault.....i will try to get an English versjon tomorrow.


----------



## Jnad

Here is the labels on one soil my local shop have.


----------



## hoppycalif

Generally speaking, we don't want added fertilizers in the soil we use. From the label it appears that there may be added fertilizer chemicals added to the organic materials in this "soil". A rich substrate is not our goal. Our goal is an average soil, with some clay, a little humus, and loam. The plants grow slowly, so they use nutrients slowly.


----------



## Michael

Agree with Hoppy, try to find a soil that does not have any added fertilizers. And thanks for the translation.


----------



## mysiak

I couldn't find prepacked soil without artificial fertilizer around here where I live. It seems that all commercial soils contain added NPK. I believe the abundance of nutrients caused nitrate respiration during the first few weeks, but this is problem only if one adds livestock prematurely. It is possible to use selective ion exchange resin to remove nitrates from water for faster stabilization of the tank or more fast growing plants (if free space permits). After that it "turns into" ordinary soil.

I would prefer soil without artificial fertilizer too, but if that's not an option, even fertilized soil will work, you just have to be aware of the drawbacks.


----------



## Jnad

Tanks for your answers👍 How about peat? There is some soils availeble without any peat? Or is peat Ok?


----------



## Michael

Peat is OK. It may lower pH and stain the water with tannins, but this may not be a problem depending on your goals for the tank. Another way to safely use soils with added fertilizer is to do several soak and drain cycles. This will tend to wash the excess nutrients out of the soil.


----------



## GadgetGirl

Michael said:


> Peat is OK. It may lower pH and stain the water with tannins, but this may not be a problem depending on your goals for the tank. Another way to safely use soils with added fertilizer is to do several soak and drain cycles. This will tend to wash the excess nutrients out of the soil.


I am a firm believer in this process of mineralization no matter what the soil I'm dealing with. I have used hot soils in the past like Miracle Gro using this method. I also use mature filter materials. I have always added the fish immediately with absolutely no ammonia or nitrite spikes. I believe thorough mineralization and mature filter media is key!


----------



## Jnad

Tanks for your answers👍 I have done some dirt tanks in the past but with a different soil so it will be interesting to try another type of soil. The soil i have used beafore had cow manure in it😳


----------



## dwalstad

Jnad said:


> Tanks for your answers&#128077; How about peat? There is some soils availeble without any peat? Or is peat Ok?


Almost all commercial soils contain some peat, which is a useful ingredient. However, I wouldn't use 100% peat. It doesn't have any nutrients.

Try to find a commercial soil designed for _slow-growing_ plants--house plants, Bonsai, desert cactus, African Violets, etc. It shouldn't be that hard to find potting soil designed for growing houseplants. I found small bags in grocery and drug stores.

Cow manure and chicken manure are just nitrogen-rich forms of organic matter. Generally, they are well-composted and minor components of a commercial product. I wouldn't discount a soil that contains them.

You have to assume that the manufacturer designed the soil product to grow plants successfully. If the soil has an excess of nutrients and creates problems those first few weeks, you can always change water or poke the substrate. If the soil has white perlite balls that float to the surface, just skim them off. There's always a learning curve to using soils.


----------



## Jnad

dwalstad said:


> Jnad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tanks for your answers&#128077; How about peat? There is some soils availeble without any peat? Or is peat Ok?
> 
> 
> 
> Almost all commercial soils contain some peat, which is a useful ingredient. However, I wouldn't use 100% peat. It doesn't have any nutrients.
> 
> Try to find a commercial soil designed for _slow-growing_ plants--house plants, Bonsai, desert cactus, African Violets, etc. It shouldn't be that hard to find potting soil designed for growing houseplants. I found small bags in grocery and drug stores.
> 
> Cow manure and chicken manure are just nitrogen-rich forms of organic matter. Generally, they are well-composted and minor components of a commercial product. I wouldn't discount a soil that contains them.
> 
> You have to assume that the manufacturer designed the soil product to grow plants successfully. If the soil has an excess of nutrients and creates problems those first few weeks, you can always change water or poke the substrate. If the soil has white perlite balls that float to the surface, just skim them off. There's always a learning curve to using soils.
Click to expand...

 Thanks..... there are several types of soils availeble here in Norway, also soils for cactus and slow growing plants. I have also found soil without peat just made with compost, i might go with that soil but it is a little bit more expensive.


----------



## dwalstad

Jnad said:


> Thanks..... there are several types of soils available here in Norway, also soils for cactus and slow growing plants. I have also found soil without peat just made with compost, i might go with that soil but it is a little bit more expensive.


Compost is good; it is less acidic than peat.


----------



## Michael

Norway! I love to see posts from international members.


----------



## PCT2

Hello. I'm about to set up a 7.1 planted El Natural tank. My water is very soft (pH c. 6.5, GH c. 25 ppm, KH c. 20 ppm). For obvious reasons, I plan to populate the tank with soft-water fish and plants that do well in such water. Do you recommend I add oyster grit and maybe bone meal to the substrate for the sake of the plants? Any chance such additions might make the water too hard for the fish?


----------



## Gerald

If you choose soft-water adapted fish and plants, then you dont need to harden it. On the other hand, adding a bit more hardness wont hurt, and may help, all but the "serious" obligate blackwater species, of which there are relatively few. Keep in mind bone meal has a lot of phosphate too.


----------



## dwalstad

If it were my tank, I would add some form of calcium to the tank.


----------



## FlatfishTanker1

I have spent more than a few hours reading through this thread that spans about 10 years! I have my tank and lid and light and filter and and heater all ready to go. But I still don't have the confidence to throw some dirt in there and get started. When this thread started, The Miracle Gro in the orange bag was readily available. Now it's not. At least I can't find it. And I was hoping to find a good alternative. A few people have suggested that ANY soil will work. But I don't have the expertise to make the proper adjustments to ANY soil. I guess I was hoping to learn about an actual brand/product that exists today that I can purchase (in San Diego) and use that gives me the best chance of success. I don't want to learn from my mistakes, because I don't want to make mistakes that aren't necessary. Especially if smarter people than I have already made those mistakes ahead of me.
I went to Home Depot and Lowes yesterday, and left both stores with nothing, because my head was spinning with so many options. I read several ingredients lists, and I don't know the difference between an ingredient and a fertilizer!

GadgetGirl did suggest an actual product that she likes called Black Kow Top Soil. But I didn't see any response to her suggestion. Is this a good product to use?

I have a bag of Miracle Gro Performance organics. Is this a good alternative?

And regarding mineralization. I am convinced by this thread that this is a good thing to do. But is the suggestion to use the entire mineralization process including the added pottery clay and dolomite and potash, or is the suggestion just to use the soaking and drying and screening processes?

I have been researching the Walstad method for about a year now via her book and youtube videos and forums like this. I think I have a pretty good handle on it. I'm just having a difficult time finding the best substrate to use!

Again, I know I'll have have issues to deal with, and I will. but I want to travel the best path to success that I can find, and it all starts with the substrate! Thank you,

Wayne


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

The soil you have will work just fine. To play it safe, you can do several soak and drain cycles to remove floaters and excess fertilizer. Or you could do the full mineralization process, but it isn't required.

The peat in your soil may lower the pH and release tannins that color the water. Both are usually harmless and temporary. Any unlikely problems can be solved with a few water changes.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.


----------



## FlatfishTanker1

Thanks Michael. The water PH from my well is about 7.8, so it can use a bit of lowering. Would rather not have the stained water though. Anybody have any opinions about the Black Kow top soil?


----------



## dwalstad

FlatfishTanker1 said:


> I went to Home Depot and Lowes yesterday, and left both stores with nothing, because my head was spinning with so many options. I read several ingredients lists, and I don't know the difference I have a bag of Miracle Gro Performance organics. Is this a good alternative?
> 
> I'm just having a difficult time finding the best substrate to use!
> 
> Wayne


The MG Performance Organics should work fine. Note that this soil and other potting soils are mostly organic matter. They can become severely anaerobic if they are smothered and denied oxygen. Here's picture of tank that is a risky start. Stones, which should never be used, cover substrate and block entry of oxygenated water down into the deeper soil layer. There are very few plants, but plenty of driftwood and rocks.

There's no point in using soil if there aren't enough strong rooted plants to take advantage of it. And strong, healthy plants will help oxygenate the substrate. If the soil becomes too anaerobic, it will kill plant roots. Dying, decomposing roots will make the soil even more anaerobic, creating a "substrate meltdown."

Any fresh organic soil can go severely anaerobic during first few weeks if you smother it and don't have enough strong rooted plants. You can mineralize the soil beforehand as Michael does to make the soil a little less combustible when you put it in the tank. That's not a bad idea if you're just starting out. I prefer using fresh potting soil right out of the bag. It works for me because I am careful not to mistreat it.


----------



## FlatfishTanker1

Thanks Ms. Walstad. I'm gonna do it! I feel I'm finally ready to start my first tank!

Wayne


----------



## FlatfishTanker1

Here are a couple more:

*Recipe 420 Potting Soil*
Aged forest products
Coir
Sphagnum peat moss
Fish bone meal
Oyster shell lime
Dolomite lime
Bat Guano
Alfalfa meal
Kelp meal
Wetting Agent (yucca schidigera saponi)
Plus: benificial bacteria and endo mycorrizae)

*E.B. Stone Organics*
Aged redwood
Aged Fir Bark
Compost
Dehydrated chicken manure
Earthworm castings
Bat Guano
Alfalfa meal
Kelp meal

The E.B. Stone potting soil seems simpler, but is the aged redwood OK?

The recipe 420 has the added bacteria and stuff. Could that be a problem? Or could it help with biological filtration and tank cycling?

Wayne


----------



## dwalstad

I think the Internet has swamped common sense and all reason. If you read my book, you'd know that filter bacteria and cycling aren't that important in soil tanks. San Diego water is very hard and full of hard water nutrients--calcium, potassium, magnesium. There's no need for dolomite lime, such as in 420.

The vendors of potting soils try to create a product that will grow houseplants, which like aquatic plants are slow growers. There are certain standards and state regulations that manufacturers follow.

I would not waste time comparing potting soil brands and components. I trust that a potting soil manufacturer knows what he/she is doing and that Wal-mart, Lowes, and Home Depot aren't going to sell potting soils that kill houseplants and alienate their customers.

My recent revision in _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ discusses soils for tanks and how to treat them. Link shows the revised page 137.


----------



## little_newbie

Hello guys,

I'm based in the UK and am unable to get a hold of Miracle gro potting soil. I'm wondering if Levington John Innes no. 3 potting mix would work as an alternative? I tried to look for the composition but failed. The only information I can find was that it is a traditional mixture of loam, peat, and washed and graded horticultural grit.

Many thanks for the help.


----------



## Michael

Eons ago, the various Innes mixes were all made from simple natural ingredients. #3 was the most fertile. I don't know if the modern versions are the same, but my guess is that it will be fine. If you want to be cautious and minimize water changes, give it a few soak-and-drain cycles first.


----------



## little_newbie

Michael said:


> Eons ago, the various Innes mixes were all made from simple natural ingredients. #3 was the most fertile. I don't know if the modern versions are the same, but my guess is that it will be fine. If you want to be cautious and minimize water changes, give it a few soak-and-drain cycles first.


Hi Michael,

Many thanks for this. I'm planning to have 1 inch of the sifted John Innes no. 3 soil and for the gravel, I'm looking to have 1.5 inch Dennerle Quartz Gravel (1-2mm diameter). Would this be alright?

Much appreciated,

Gary


----------



## dwalstad

Your soil is probably fine. Please make the gravel layer less than 1.5 inches. You don't want to smother the soil layer and create severely anaerobic condition in the soil. It will kill plant roots leading to all kinds of problems.

Always use the least depth of a gravel cover that you can.


----------



## little_newbie

dwalstad said:


> Your soil is probably fine. Please make the gravel layer less than 1.5 inches. You don't want to smother the soil layer and create severely anaerobic condition in the soil. It will kill plant roots leading to all kinds of problems.
> 
> Always use the least depth of a gravel cover that you can.


Thank you for the speedy response, I'll use a 1 inch gravel layer instead. Excited to get this going now!


----------



## aquarium-n00b

dwalstad said:


> The MG Performance Organics should work fine. Note that this soil and other potting soils are mostly organic matter. They can become severely anaerobic if they are smothered and denied oxygen.


Hello Diana. I just ordered your book and it is on it's way from Amazon as we speak. I also just finished soaking some potting soil to help me separate the wood chips and perlite. This was something I read on the internet regarding your method, but I am not sure if you recommend that. I was left with what looked like fine silt and to me this seems like it would compact and become anaerobic quickly.

People didn't want the wood chips because of tannins and the perlite was said to escape easily.


----------



## hoppycalif

nOOb, welcome to APC!

A "good" soil-in-a-bag will not have wood chips in it, unless they are well on the way to rotting. Perlite is good in a plant pot, but I don't think it contributes anything to an aquarium substrate. So, I tried to use a "soil" that did not have it. I used https://www.acehardware.com/departm...gardening/flower-and-plant-fertilizer/7265036 and it is working well.


----------



## Michael

The fine silty stuff is good! Compaction is not the major cause of anaerobic conditions--all soil in aquaria becomes compacted. (This is different than terrestrial plants in pots or the landscape.) Excessive depth, lack of plants with strong root systems, and rapidly decomposing organic matter all cause anaerobic conditions. By removing the wood chips, you are removing some of the organic matter that needs a lot of decomposition. The fine stuff left is the mineral component of the soil, and well decomposed organic matter. In other words, something that more closely resembles a natural top soil. This part is better and safer for aquarium substrate.

Potting soil with lots of wood chips can work with frequent water changes and no disturbance for months; many people have done it. But I like to do that part in a bucket before the soil goes into the tank.


----------



## Regis

I have had good success with these two soils:

Sta-Green Flower & Vegetable Garden Soil

Vigoro All-Purpose Garden Soil

The Vigoro has less "stuff" in it and it was easier to separate the not so good stuff from the good stuff. They are not organic, but the ingredient list looks fine and the NPK numbers are quite low.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## abepaniagua

Have anyone here mixed organic soil with fluval stratum? I've got both and I was thinking about mixing them for my first NPT.


----------



## dwalstad

Please don't mix soils. Start with using the organic soil.


----------



## abepaniagua

dwalstad said:


> Please don't mix soils. Start with using the organic soil.


I must ask, why not? Still reading through your book, so sorry for the question. I thought an organic soil would benefit from something like the fluval.


----------



## hoppycalif

Fluval Stratum is an inert substrate. It is equivalent to gravel, except that it isn't just silica. It is porous, so it probably has a good CEC. If you mix it with fine grained soil the fine particles will gradually collect at the bottom under the Stratum. Once I mixed natural soil with pool filter sand and after a couple of years I switched to another substrate. When I tried to salvage the pool filter sand it was easy to do, because the substrate was in two very separate layers, with the soil at the bottom, a relatively dense mass of soil. I don't think there is any benefit at all in mixing soils with "gravels" in our aquariums.


----------



## mistergreen

If your organic soil doesn't have any sand in it, it would be good to add sand in it to make it less dense so it doesn't go anaerobic.


----------



## abepaniagua

mistergreen said:


> If your organic soil doesn't have any sand in it, it would be good to add sand in it to make it less dense so it doesn't go anaerobic.


Well I'm 5 min away from the coast so I can go grab some right? &#128578;


----------



## mistergreen

abepaniagua said:


> Well I'm 5 min away from the coast so I can go grab some right? &#128578;


Sure, wash the salt out. I don't see a problem with the stratum (volcanic soil). You can crush it even finer.


----------



## abepaniagua

mistergreen said:


> abepaniagua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I'm 5 min away from the coast so I can go grab some right? &#128578;
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, wash the salt out. I don't see a problem with the stratum (volcanic soil). You can crush it even finer.
Click to expand...

Pool sand, "silica 20-30" works?


----------



## mistergreen

abepaniagua said:


> Pool sand, "silica 20-30" works?


should work. you're making top soil.


----------



## abepaniagua

mistergreen said:


> abepaniagua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pool sand, "silica 20-30" works?
> 
> 
> 
> should work. you're making top soil.
Click to expand...

English is my second language so I get confused with this. "Top soil" refers to the bottom one, the first you add, right? Then we put a cap so it doesn't leak into tank? For the cap, I wanted something dark. I found black gravel but it is black cuz it's coated with acrylic paint. I didn't want to use sand for the cap cuz it is too bright for my taste.


----------



## Greendot

Hey

I know that many have been using Miracle Gro 72978510. But it is no longer offered as far as I can see. 

What is another low cost soil that is recommended?


----------



## mistergreen

abepaniagua said:


> English is my second language so I get confused with this. "Top soil" refers to the bottom one, the first you add, right? Then we put a cap so it doesn't leak into tank? For the cap, I wanted something dark. I found black gravel but it is black cuz it's coated with acrylic paint. I didn't want to use sand for the cap cuz it is too bright for my taste.


Top soil refers to soil you find in your garden or yard.
The acrylic coated gravel should work. You can get natural black substrate too, mostly volcanic soil.


----------



## Bellator

Hi everyone, I’m getting back into the hobby after few years break. I’ve done two successful Walstad tanks in the past. Recently I can’t find the same organic miracle gro potting soil anymore. I bought Natures care organic potting mix instead it’s the best one I can grab at my store. I’m worried about it’s total N, because it’s 0.15%. Should I look for a different brand elsewhere or does anyone have experience with this particular soil that turned out to be fine?


----------



## hoppycalif

Bellator, welcome to APC! Soils with more than 1% nitrogen would possibly be too much, but 0.15% is about as low as any of them get. It is good to have some nutrients in the "soil", but not critical to have a specific amount. I googled it and find it also has perlite in it, which I would avoid if at all possible. That stuff can drive you nuts for many months, as pieces show up floating on the water surface.


----------



## Greendot

What about this one?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Scotts-...ickid=RTNwamQuhxyOTPhwUx0Mo38MUkE0kwQBy3oRSM0


----------



## hoppycalif

That looks like it is an incomplete soil, consisting entirely of organic matter, with no loam, clay, or other soil ingredients. If I had that on hand I would mix it in with ordinary dirt from my back yard to get a better mix for a substrate.


----------



## mistergreen

Top soil should work fine. It has sand of different sizes and the organics should work.


----------



## Bellator

hoppycalif said:


> Bellator, welcome to APC! Soils with more than 1% nitrogen would possibly be too much, but 0.15% is about as low as any of them get. It is good to have some nutrients in the "soil", but not critical to have a specific amount. I googled it and find it also has perlite in it, which I would avoid if at all possible. That stuff can drive you nuts for many months, as pieces show up floating on the water surface.


Hi, thank you for the hospitality. Glad to be here. Regarding the perlite I completely forgot about that floating stuff. What other disadvantage will it do aside from physical annoyance on the surface? If there's nothing serious that'll ruin the soil and kill the plants then I'll live with that I guess. I can try again and travel further to get a better organic soil.

I remember reading Ms. Walstads article in the past that the ideal total nitrogen is 0.10%. So I assume that maybe 0.15 can be a problem. I'm guessing too much of it can give off abundant ammonia that plants can handle. I have to read the book again it's been a while.


----------



## hoppycalif

Perlite does no harm in the substrate, it is just a never ending nuisance.


----------



## dwalstad

Perlite is just blown up glass with trapped air spaces. It's inert. I like to think of it as "glass popcorn." 
It won't hurt anything.


----------



## Bellator

Hi Everyone, I’m happy to say that till this day the soil didn’t give me a problem yet with that perlite possibly floating. The tank is 7 days old today.


----------



## dwalstad

Nice tank!


----------



## Bellator

Thank you for the compliments, I like how the tank looks so far. Sad to see that for the second time I’m not getting a good outcome again with Staurogyne repens. Oh well at least all other plants are growing. 

I think I added the amano shrimps too early. I saw two of them just laying down on their sides. Perhaps ammonia or nitrite problem.


----------



## dwalstad

Do frequent water changes after a setup and monitor animals closely. It's a tricky time and some soils will release toxic organics, not just ammonia. Once soil settles down, you can relax.


----------



## annak

Hello! This thread has definitely been helpful to me but at the same time it made me more anxious about the soil I am about to use. I've read the whole thread but I am not sure that my soil is suitable so it would be a great help if you shared your opinions. This was a cheap soil that I bought for my plants. Unfortunately I couldn't find an english translation so I ll try to do it myself:

Peat, Compost (natural/plant residues), organic fertilizer.
organic matter: 65%
dry matter: 30%
Ph 6.7
Ability to restrain water: 65%
N: 20 -35 mg/lt
P2O5: 495 - 800mg/lt
K2O: 1600 - 2300mg/lt


----------



## hoppycalif

annak said:


> Hello! This thread has definitely been helpful to me but at the same time it made me more anxious about the soil I am about to use. I've read the whole thread but I am not sure that my soil is suitable so it would be a great help if you shared your opinions. This was a cheap soil that I bought for my plants. Unfortunately I couldn't find an english translation so I ll try to do it myself:
> 
> Peat, Compost (natural/plant residues), organic fertilizer.
> organic matter: 65%
> dry matter: 30%
> Ph 6.7
> Ability to restrain water: 65%
> N: 20 -35 mg/lt
> P2O5: 495 - 800mg/lt
> K2O: 1600 - 2300mg/lt


Welcome to APC!

If I understand this, your soil will be primarily peat - 65%. That would not be an ideal soil. But, usually the cheaper the "soil", the better, because it will not have added nutrients making it too rich. Can you photograph the bag and show it to us?


----------



## annak

Hello again! Thanks for your reply. I was mostly concerned about N because I wasn't sure how much % it contained. Didn't think about peat. This is a general soil and can be used for plants and vegetables in pots and gardens. It contains organic fertilizer and it provides good soil aeration. 
Here are some pics. Unfortunately it says it is based on peat and compost from vegetables and manure. So I guess it wont work  
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8e/f5/ed8ef5b73a44cf93d373c0a1439503cc.png
https://media.adeo.com/media/671529/resize/600x600


----------



## annak

I forgot to say that I also have a bag of cactus soil. It contains peat too, river sand and N, Cu, Zinc. It comes from a local provider though and doesn't say anything about quantities or %. I wonder if it is better than the previous one. For some reason every soil in Greece (and Europe generally) seems to be very high on peat for some reason.


----------



## mistergreen

A little peat is fine but I don't know what the % in your bag. Peat doesn't have nutrients but helps hold on to nutrients and water in the soil.


----------



## annak

Ok I can't believe how hard it is to find a decent and plain soil!
So I keep looking for some suitable one. I just happened to find a seller who provides huge amounts of soil though. I ll ask if I can get a smaller quantity (if it's what I need):

1. This one is called "earth soil" and it's screened (I wonder if it is top soil). It looks like somewhat reddish to me I don't know if it contains too much clay. They say they dig about 1-1.5 meter to get it and they screen it with 20mm.
https://www.xomatexniki.gr/images/IMG_3015.jpg

2. Soil + Compost 50-50 percentage
https://www.xomatexniki.gr/images/IMG_2903-2-e1512394346219.jpg

What do you think it's better?

If I can't use any of these my only option left is to buy Sera floredepot which is soil for aquarium plants but I don't know if it is going to work with this method. 
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i2rEHxUJcHQ/maxresdefault.jpg


----------



## mistergreen

#1 or #2 look good. #2 will have more nutrients in the compost.


----------



## Michael

It is hard to know for sure, but I agree with mistergreen. Both 1 and 2 seem to be based on natural topsoil and this is a good thing.


----------



## hoppycalif

I think we mean "topsoil" to be the top foot of dirt, never 3 to 4 feet down in the ground. Again, trying to remember what Ms Walstad has posted - the best soil is not what you get digging deep. And, also from memory, we can sometimes get too picky when it comes to soils, because almost any soil that has some organic materials in it will work well. The exception is bags of "soil" that have fertilizers added, or manure added, making it much too rich in nutrients for aquarium use. I suspect it is time for me to read "the book" again!


----------



## sbalabani84

annak said:


> Hello again! Thanks for your reply. I was mostly concerned about N because I wasn't sure how much % it contained. Didn't think about peat. This is a general soil and can be used for plants and vegetables in pots and gardens. It contains organic fertilizer and it provides good soil aeration.
> 
> Here are some pics. Unfortunately it says it is based on peat and compost from vegetables and manure. So I guess it wont work
> 
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8e/f5/ed8ef5b73a44cf93d373c0a1439503cc.png
> 
> https://media.adeo.com/media/671529/resize/600x600
> 
> View attachment 64593


Hi, really surprised to see the Greek soil brand! I assure you that I have used peat based soils, the ones sold for gardenias and plants grow fine. I have also bought the cheapest generic soil for plants at a fytorio and used it last time on a 30 cm cube but what I did before use was to sieve it in order to remove little twigs and whatnot. This really helps with any algae outbreaks from the excess organics.


----------



## annak

sbalabani84 said:


> Hi, really surprised to see the Greek soil brand! I assure you that I have used peat based soils, the ones sold for gardenias and plants grow fine. I have also bought the cheapest generic soil for plants at a fytorio and used it last time on a 30 cm cube but what I did before use was to sieve it in order to remove little twigs and whatnot. This really helps with any algae outbreaks from the excess organics.


Hello! Good to know that peat soils work just fine. Finally I was able to get the simple soil with compost so I'll use that. It seems ok but I'll definitely sieve it just in case. I was a bit concerned with the one I had because of the fertilizer.


----------



## Dude

Regarding the cap, I believe it's recommended the grain size be around 2-3 millimeters. The sand I'm wanting to use is finer than that so to compensate I would use a much thinner layer of it. Maybe only half an inch. That should be okay, right? 



Also, I'm considering using dirt from my backyard. I think it would be considered pretty silty. When I wet the ground puddles seep into it very quickly, so it doesn't hold onto moisture very well which makes me think it's low in organic matter. When it dries it can become very hard. When using a tiller it sometimes sounds like I'm scraping rock, but it's just hard dirt. Does it sound like there might be any issues with this type of dirt?


----------



## atxrj123

Has anyone had experience using this Dynadirt Aquatic Planting Soil? Manufacturer mentions "trace amounts of time release fertilizer" in one of the q&a responses. I've had success with Miracle-Gro Organic in my first tank, just wanting to try something different on a new tank.


----------



## Michael

Dynadirt seems to be intended for pond plants in pots. I suspect that it is more fertile than optimum for aquarium use.


----------



## dwalstad

I agree with Michael.

Pond plants basking in sunlight have the aerial advantage. They are not limited by CO2. Thus, soils designed for them will be more fertile than ordinary potting soils designed for house plants. Ordinary, submerged aquarium plants are shade plants. They cannot use the extra nutrients, which will then only cause algae and many other problems.


----------



## pjcvijay

Is Kitchen compost (made of kitchen scraps) or leaf mould mixed with sand or gravel (50:50 ratio) a good aquarium substrate? So we know exactly what's in the soil and where it came from. My neighbour is making his own compost out of leaves, kitchen scraps. It's well decomposed by bacteria, and earthworms. Is it worth giving a try when I setup my next tank? Thanks!


----------



## mistergreen

pjcvijay said:


> Is Kitchen compost (made of kitchen scraps) or leaf mould mixed with sand or gravel (50:50 ratio) a good aquarium substrate? So we know exactly what's in the soil and where it came from. My neighbour is making his own compost out of leaves, kitchen scraps. It's well decomposed by bacteria, and earthworms. Is it worth giving a try when I setup my next tank? Thanks!


Go for 15% compost, 15% peat, and the rest sand & gravel. You can put in clay too.


----------



## Michael

I've used compost successfully, but I put it through several soak and drain cycles and mixed it with 50/50 with a clay-based high CEC substrate. Examples would be Safe-T-Sorb, plain cat litter, and Turface.


----------



## pjcvijay

mistergreen said:


> Go for 15% compost, 15% peat, and the rest sand & gravel. You can put in clay too.


Thank you! May I know why do we need to add peat? Here I get coco peat (Coco peat is made from the pith inside a coconut husk)?


----------



## pjcvijay

Michael said:


> I've used compost successfully, but I put it through several soak and drain cycles and mixed it with 50/50 with a clay-based high CEC substrate. Examples would be Safe-T-Sorb, plain cat litter, and Turface.


Thank you! soak and drain is to remove excess nutrient or remove fertilizer? I am sure it does not have any added fertilizers. Can I use grey clay usually?

Do you think I need to mineralize (soak and dry) the compost?


----------



## mistergreen

Compost contain lots of nutrients so mineralizing it would help with excess nutrients. You can add peat to add extra organic without nutrients and increase the CEC property.


----------



## hoppycalif

pjcvijay said:


> ........Can I use grey clay usually?


Grey clay could be very high in aluminum or not, and very low in iron, or not. The color isn't a perfect way to tell what metals are in the clay. If the clay was made for artists, it might contain some plastic stuff, which would be harmful to the plants. Ideally it is pure natural clay with ample iron in it.


----------



## pjcvijay

hoppycalif said:


> Grey clay could be very high in aluminum or not, and very low in iron, or not. The color isn't a perfect way to tell what metals are in the clay. If the clay was made for artists, it might contain some plastic stuff, which would be harmful to the plants. Ideally it is pure natural clay with ample iron in it.


Thank you! It's 100 percentage natural clay, and it's usually obtained from rever or near by. I see little grasses grow on it.


----------



## Michael

Soak and drain is done to remove excess nutrients, and tannin that might discolor the water. The full mineralization process (wet to dry cycles) breaks down the organic matter into a more fully decomposed and stable state. Adding peat or a high CEC substrate is a way of accomplishing the same thing in a shorter time.

If you have access to a natural clay that supports plant life, it will probably be a good ingredient for the substrate. You don't need very much.


----------



## pjcvijay

Michael said:


> Soak and drain is done to remove excess nutrients, and tannin that might discolor the water. The full mineralization process (wet to dry cycles) breaks down the organic matter into a more fully decomposed and stable state. Adding peat or a high CEC substrate is a way of accomplishing the same thing in a shorter time.
> 
> If you have access to a natural clay that supports plant life, it will probably be a good ingredient for the substrate. You don't need very much.


Thank you for answering my questions!


----------



## KostasTs

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the aquarium keeping hobby and i would like to start my first Walstad tank

Here in Greece we don't get miracle grow or any other of the suggested mixes and most packed soils do not list ingredients.
So after much searching and asking around i found this soil.
I would like to ask if it is suitable for the Walstad method


----------



## mistergreen

KostasTs said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm new to the aquarium keeping hobby and i would like to start my first Walstad tank
> 
> Here in Greece we don't get miracle grow or any other of the suggested mixes and most packed soils do not list ingredients.
> So after much searching and asking around i found this soil.
> I would like to ask if it is suitable for the Walstad method


It has bat guano in it. I would not use it straight out of the bag.

If you can find regular top soil, it would be better, not soil for the garden.


----------



## Michael

As gardeners say, bat guano is really hot! Other than that the soil mix looks reasonable. If this is the most convenient soil for you to use, I definitely recommend three rinse and drain cycles before putting it in the tank.


----------



## KostasTs

Michael said:


> As gardeners say, bat guano is really hot! Other than that the soil mix looks reasonable. If this is the most convenient soil for you to use, I definitely recommend three rinse and drain cycles before putting it in the tank.


Thank you for your response.

Unfortunately is the only mix i can find that i can be sure it haw no chemicals in it and also does not contain perlite.

Could you please send me a link with proper rinse and drain instructions?


----------



## dwalstad

To keep things simple, I would go to a garden store and ask owner or store clerk to recommend a good potting soil that people use to grow houseplants. No need to know what the ingredients are. If the soil supports good growth of houseplants, all the ingredients--whether they are bat guano or goat manure-- should be thoroughly composted/decomposed. Soil should smell "earthy." Perlite is a minor nuisance. 

Your other option is to follow Michael's recommendations.


----------



## KostasTs

After much searching only online due to lockdown restrictions here in Greece i think i found a suitable solution.

I will try and translate the composition:

"Special natural substrate for cultivation in pots, window boxes and on the ground."
Without any addition of chemical fertilizers

Composition according to manufacturer:

Blonde Peat 40%
Black Peat 10%
Clay(?) 20%
Humus(plant based) 30%
Ph 6-7
Humidity 40%

I hope this does the trick


----------



## Michael

This looks good! No added fertilizers. It may lower the pH of tank water, but this is unlikely to be a problem.


----------



## KostasTs

Michael said:


> This looks good! No added fertilizers. It may lower the pH of tank water, but this is unlikely to be a problem.


I think it will be ok
My tapwater parameters are
Gh:10
Kh:9
Ph:7.6


----------



## atxrj123

I'd appreciate any thoughts on doing Safe T Sorb (STS) and slow-release ferts with a gravel cap. I like to pull / move the stems and rescape regularly so I'm just trying to figure a way to reduce the mess.


----------



## Michael

I haven't done it, but think it is possible. Do a search on SeattleAquarist's posts for more information about using STS as a stand-alone substrate. He soaks the STS in a fertilizer solution before putting it in the tank.

You would not need to use a gravel cap except for appearance. Over time, some STS will migrate to the surface, especially if you like to rearrange thing often. So you will see a mixture of gravel and STS. 

If you try this, please let us know how it works!


----------



## atxrj123

Thanks for the leads Michael. I think I've done enough reading now that I'm getting comfortable with this method. I'll update with more info if I go this route.


----------



## MadTurtle

Michael said:


> *Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix *(MGOC) is often recommended, and by Diana Walstad herself in her on-line article about small aquaria for shrimp at Shop BTPS. Unlike many other "potting soils", MGOC has a clear list of ingredients and a nutritional analysis on the bag:
> 
> 50-55% composted bark
> Sphagnum peat moss
> Pasteurized poultry litter
> "organic wetting agent" (whatever that is)
> 
> Analysis 0.10-0.05-0.05
> total nitrogen 0.10%
> available phosphate (P2O2) 0.05%
> soluble potash (K2O) 0.05%
> ". . .feeds up to 2 months. . ."
> 
> This tells us several important things. First, this product is 100% organic matter. Remember, natural soils are almost never 100% organic matter-less than 20% is more common. So this soil is going to undergo a lot of decomposition in the aquarium.
> 
> Second, it has chicken manure in it, which makes it much more fertile (higher nutrient level) than most other potting mixes. But, these nutrients come from slow-release organic sources, not synthetic inorganic chemicals. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with synthetic fertilizers, but they behave differently when submerged than organic ones do. This higher fertility is expressed in the analysis (which shows much more nutrients than typical for potting mixes or natural soils) and the last statement, "feeds up to 2 months".
> 
> What does MGOC look like when you open the bag? It is dark brown, with a mix of fine particles and some pretty big chunks of not-yet fully decomposed bark. These chunks are a source of concern, for several reasons discussed below. I did a quick test with a ¼" soil sieve, and about 20 to 25% of MGOC will not go through the sieve, even after rubbing it hard with a gloved hand.
> 
> MGOC has three major advantages:
> 1. It is a nationally available product
> 2. The ingredients and analysis are clearly listed on the bag
> 3. It is relatively consistent no matter where you buy it. (Many other products vary greatly from one region to another.)
> 
> Used straight from the bag, MGOC has four major disadvantages:
> 1. The big pieces and many of the smaller pieces float, which can make a big mess if your cap is not heavy enough, or if you change your mind and move a plant.
> 2. The high nutrient content usually causes an ammonia spike in the first month following tank set-up.
> 3. The partially decomposed bark releases a lot of tannins into the water. This is not usually harmful to fish or plants, but the tea-colored water may look bad to you.
> 4. Because it is 100% organic matter, if the soil and/or cap is too deep, the soil layer may become very anaerobic. This is bad for many reasons.
> 
> Fortunately, there are easy ways to deal with all of these disadvantages.
> 
> The simplest ways are a thin soil layer, patience, and water changes. This soil is hot stuff, you do not need much! How deep a soil layer to use depends on size of tank and types of plants, but I would never use more than 1.5". For beginners and small tanks, 1" or less is plenty. Patience is necessary to allow the biological filter to develop properly and absorb the ammonia. Water changes help with that, and also remove the tannins. Eventually the big pieces become saturated with water and no longer float.
> 
> The more sophisticated ways to deal with these problems involve processing MGOC in some way before you use it. A quick and effective process is "soak and drain". Put the soil in a big bucket, cover it several inches with water, and stir well. Let it sit over night, then carefully pour off the floaters and the brown water. Fill, stir, and let sit over night again. Repeat the soaking and draining cycle until you see no floaters and the water is reasonably clear, or until you can't wait any longer, LOL. Seriously, three complete cycles is usually enough to make a big difference. This method will result in a loss of total volume of soil of 25-30%, so start with more than you need for the tank.
> 
> Another way to process MGOC is to mineralize it. This process is described fully in several great threads in the library forum. Mineralization greatly speeds decay of organic matter into a very stable form called humus. Humus does not release ammonia into the water, and is unlikely to become anaerobic.
> 
> And there is one last tip for using MGOC or any other highly organic soil: mix it with an inorganic substrate that has a high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Examples are laterite, Flourite, Turface, plain cat litter (no perfume, antimicrobials, or clumping agents), and Safe-T-Sorb. Remember, natural soil is almost never pure organic matter. Mixing the organic matter with inorganic high CEC substances means that the ammonia and other nutrients produced are held in the substrate where plant roots can use them, but where they will not harm fish. And by reducing the percentage of organic matter, you reduce the likelihood of the soil becoming anaerobic. I like a 50/50 mix. Phil Edwards first gave me this advice, and it has worked well for me.
> 
> Let's hear from eveyone else! What kinds of soil have you used in your Walstad tanks, and how well did they work?





Michael said:


> *Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix *(MGOC) is often recommended, and by Diana Walstad herself in her on-line article about small aquaria for shrimp at Shop BTPS. Unlike many other "potting soils", MGOC has a clear list of ingredients and a nutritional analysis on the bag:
> 
> 50-55% composted bark
> Sphagnum peat moss
> Pasteurized poultry litter
> "organic wetting agent" (whatever that is)
> 
> Analysis 0.10-0.05-0.05
> total nitrogen 0.10%
> available phosphate (P2O2) 0.05%
> soluble potash (K2O) 0.05%
> ". . .feeds up to 2 months. . ."
> 
> This tells us several important things. First, this product is 100% organic matter. Remember, natural soils are almost never 100% organic matter-less than 20% is more common. So this soil is going to undergo a lot of decomposition in the aquarium.
> 
> Second, it has chicken manure in it, which makes it much more fertile (higher nutrient level) than most other potting mixes. But, these nutrients come from slow-release organic sources, not synthetic inorganic chemicals. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with synthetic fertilizers, but they behave differently when submerged than organic ones do. This higher fertility is expressed in the analysis (which shows much more nutrients than typical for potting mixes or natural soils) and the last statement, "feeds up to 2 months".
> 
> What does MGOC look like when you open the bag? It is dark brown, with a mix of fine particles and some pretty big chunks of not-yet fully decomposed bark. These chunks are a source of concern, for several reasons discussed below. I did a quick test with a ¼" soil sieve, and about 20 to 25% of MGOC will not go through the sieve, even after rubbing it hard with a gloved hand.
> 
> MGOC has three major advantages:
> 1. It is a nationally available product
> 2. The ingredients and analysis are clearly listed on the bag
> 3. It is relatively consistent no matter where you buy it. (Many other products vary greatly from one region to another.)
> 
> Used straight from the bag, MGOC has four major disadvantages:
> 1. The big pieces and many of the smaller pieces float, which can make a big mess if your cap is not heavy enough, or if you change your mind and move a plant.
> 2. The high nutrient content usually causes an ammonia spike in the first month following tank set-up.
> 3. The partially decomposed bark releases a lot of tannins into the water. This is not usually harmful to fish or plants, but the tea-colored water may look bad to you.
> 4. Because it is 100% organic matter, if the soil and/or cap is too deep, the soil layer may become very anaerobic. This is bad for many reasons.
> 
> Fortunately, there are easy ways to deal with all of these disadvantages.
> 
> The simplest ways are a thin soil layer, patience, and water changes. This soil is hot stuff, you do not need much! How deep a soil layer to use depends on size of tank and types of plants, but I would never use more than 1.5". For beginners and small tanks, 1" or less is plenty. Patience is necessary to allow the biological filter to develop properly and absorb the ammonia. Water changes help with that, and also remove the tannins. Eventually the big pieces become saturated with water and no longer float.
> 
> The more sophisticated ways to deal with these problems involve processing MGOC in some way before you use it. A quick and effective process is "soak and drain". Put the soil in a big bucket, cover it several inches with water, and stir well. Let it sit over night, then carefully pour off the floaters and the brown water. Fill, stir, and let sit over night again. Repeat the soaking and draining cycle until you see no floaters and the water is reasonably clear, or until you can't wait any longer, LOL. Seriously, three complete cycles is usually enough to make a big difference. This method will result in a loss of total volume of soil of 25-30%, so start with more than you need for the tank.
> 
> Another way to process MGOC is to mineralize it. This process is described fully in several great threads in the library forum. Mineralization greatly speeds decay of organic matter into a very stable form called humus. Humus does not release ammonia into the water, and is unlikely to become anaerobic.
> 
> And there is one last tip for using MGOC or any other highly organic soil: mix it with an inorganic substrate that has a high cation exchange capacity (CEC). Examples are laterite, Flourite, Turface, plain cat litter (no perfume, antimicrobials, or clumping agents), and Safe-T-Sorb. Remember, natural soil is almost never pure organic matter. Mixing the organic matter with inorganic high CEC substances means that the ammonia and other nutrients produced are held in the substrate where plant roots can use them, but where they will not harm fish. And by reducing the percentage of organic matter, you reduce the likelihood of the soil becoming anaerobic. I like a 50/50 mix. Phil Edwards first gave me this advice, and it has worked well for me.
> 
> Let's hear from eveyone else! What kinds of soil have you used in your Walstad tanks, and how well did they work?


 What do you mean by 50/50? I am setting up my first dirted tank and plan on using BDBS as a cap. Should I mix that with something like say Stratum? Or can I just put a very thin layer on top of the soil, then a cap on top of that?


----------



## MadTurtle

MadTurtle said:


> What do you mean by 50/50? I am setting up my first dirted tank and plan on using BDBS as a cap. Should I mix that with something like say Stratum? Or can I just put a very thin layer of stratum on top of the soil, then the BDBS on top of that?


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

When using a 100% organic matter soil, I like to mix the soil half and half with a high cation exchange substrate, like Safe-T-Sorb, Flourite, Turface, or the other products mentioned. This reduces the percentage of organic matter to some more similar to natural topsoil. Please note, when I say "organic" I mean it in the chemical or soil science sense. I am not using the marketing term capital O "Organic".

The soil mix doesn't affect which cap you use.


----------



## gOOLY

Hello everyone! I'm trying to set up a NPT but here in Italy I've been having some trouble finding a suitable soil to use, as the ingredients are described generically.
Here's one I found, but I'm not sure if it's okay for plants and fishes. I'll roughly translate it for you, please let me know what you think. Thank you :*




Spoiler: Image of bag















Produced with the use of Hochmoortorf peat (h2-h4, slightly decomposed), vegetable substances from gardening and landscaping (compost from organic waste), vegetable substances from forestry (bark humus, wood fiber) and complex mineral fertilizer (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium).

Organic matter: 28% (FM)
pH: 6.4 (CaCl_2)
Saline content: 1.8g KCl / l
Electrical conductivity: 0.03 dS / m
Dry apperent density: 420 g / l
Total porosity: 87% (v / v)

Bioavailable (soluble) nutrients:
Nitrogen (N) 250 mg / l
Phosphate (P_2O_5) 300 mg / l
Potassium oxide (K_2O) 900mg / l
Magnesium (Mg) 150 mg / l
Sulfur (S) 450 mg / l

Thank you again.


----------



## Michael

Welcome to APC!

This is a highly organic soil mix with added fertilizer, similar to the often used Miracle Grow. You can treat it in the same way. There are two basic approaches. The first is to use it straight from the bag, and be prepared to do large water changes in the first weeks or months. The second is to prepare the soil first, either by soak-and-drain or by mineralizing it. This will reduce the need for water changes. This soil may lower the pH of the water, but this is rarely a problem.

Good luck and show us your tank!


----------



## gOOLY

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> [...]


Thank you! I'll definitely treat it and update you with some pics (and probably more questions). 😄


----------



## gOOLY

So, I've started the soak-and-drain process described both here and in the Aaron Talbot's topic on mineralization, but I've run into a problem.
Here you mentioned to add a substrate with a high CEC, but I'm having a hard time finding the ones you mentioned here. Would clay have the same effect? I've read in the other thread that
bentonite clay (which should be a type of montmorillonite clay) has a stronger CEC than normal clay, and I know where to buy it. Would that be ok? If not, do you know any alternatives or any other names to refer them to?

Also in that same thread, they mentioned to sprinkle some Dolomite and Muriate of Potash (whatever it is) on the glass, before adding the mineralized soil. How important is that? I could get the Dolomite but I have no idea on where to find the Potash thing.


----------



## mistergreen

Potash is soluble potassium. I wouldn't overthink it or spend too much money on it. Any affordable clay is fine. The soil itself has high CEC. You can cap the soil with large grain sand or small gravel.


----------



## Michael

Mistergreen is right, you can skip the potash without problems. Dolomite is a source of calcium and raises the pH slightly. It is useful if you have very soft water, but not necessary. After the tank is set up if you find the water lacks calcium, there are easy ways to fix it.

And don't worry much about the clay. Any type of clay is OK as long as it doesn't have any additive. If you can find some natural clay soil from a garden where no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides are used, that will work just as well.

The beauty of the Walstad method is that it is simple.


----------



## johnwesley0

Wonderful thread. I've come back to it now that I've been up all night reading EPA, a surprisingly fast read once you've spent some time on this forum.

Lately, I find that I keep coming back to the subject of clay. Diana's summer tubs are adorable and I find the look of a glass tank filled with clay pots aesthetically pleasing. But, I wonder at all that organic soil filling a 3" or 4" pot? Aren't you asking for anaerobic trouble? And, wouldn't some sort of clay, if merely for its cation-binding capacity, be the safer choice?


----------



## PlantFan

johnwesley0 said:


> Aren't you asking for anaerobic trouble?


Not after the roots get going.


maico996 said:


> You'll need as many plants as you can get when you start the tank. When you think you have enough...add more! Some will die off (that's just the way it is) and the rest will do their thing. You want lots of rooted plants to help aerate the soil. And some floaters too to help absorb excess nutrients. If you don't have a lot of plants to start with you're inviting algae to take hold in your tank, along with the possibility of anaerobic conditions developing in your soil which you want to avoid.


I like clay though.


----------



## johnwesley0

PlantFan said:


> Not after the roots get going.
> 
> I like clay though.


That makes sense in conjunction with the bottom of an entire tank. But, a single pot often has room for only one plant. If that plant happens to be a slow-growing anubias, wouldn't it still be asking for trouble? Or, what if it's just a bulb? No chance for roots to catch up there.


----------



## PlantFan

Maybe we shouldn't pot Anubias and bulbs. I haven't given it much thought. It was a revelation to me that roots aerate soil.


----------



## mistergreen

Anubias and ferns are epiphytes. They do better glued or tied to rocks & wood.


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> Anubias and ferns are epiphytes. They do better glued or tied to rocks & wood.


Funny. I've owned the same two anubias for nearly six years and I've never had the slightest desire to glue them or tie them down to anything. And now that I've said that, it sounds kind of creepy.


----------



## mistergreen

If you have little anubias, it's good to glue them to something so they don't float away. In nature, you find them attached to the side of rocks by streams and such.


----------



## johnwesley0

mistergreen said:


> If you have little anubias, it's good to glue them to something so they don't float away. In nature, you find them attached to the side of rocks by streams and such.


I don't really remember what kept them from floating in the early days. I think because I only saw them from the top down that it never really bothered me that due to their rhizome they were mostly untethered from my very shallow substrate. But, in their mature state they clearly have intricate root systems. They thrive on mulm, so that's an important niche in my bowl I'm not going to disturb. But, I could definitely see starting a new one in a pot.


----------



## jatcar95

johnwesley0 said:


> But, I wonder at all that organic soil filling a 3" or 4" pot? Aren't you asking for anaerobic trouble? And, wouldn't some sort of clay, if merely for its cation-binding capacity, be the safer choice?


From Ms. Walstad's _Small Scale Guppy Breeding_ article: "For potting plants, I only use a clay garden soil. (Potting and organic soils can become severely anaerobic when confined in a pot.) I cover the soil with a little aquarium gravel." Article is linked on this page: Planted Aquariums


----------



## clarke77

Hello! First post. My daughter and I have been reading Ms. Walstad's book, lurking on this forum, and watching a bunch of YouTube videos and we think we're about ready to take the plunge into our first planted tank!

Of course, we're stuck on the question of what soil to use. There is a garden center nearby that has a number of options available, and they provide detailed descriptions on their website. At this point, I think the best option is one they call "Potting Mix"...it clocks in at around 20% organic matter, composed of "Sandy Loam, 5/16" Horticulture Lava, Coarse Sand, Organic Diestel Compost, Organic Garden Compost, 1/4"-Fir Bark, Ligna Peat, and Organic Feather Meal".

Can someone take a look this (their provided soil analysis) and let me know if this would be a good choice:

https://store.lyngsogarden.com/inet/storefront/getpdf.php?recid=278

Thank you!


----------



## dwalstad

No guarantees, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. I assume that this soil is being sold by a reliable garden center to grow houseplants. The fact that it is only 20% organic matter will lessen its tendency to go anaerobic. (Some potting soils are over 60% organic matter.)


----------



## TheGarbagePile

I run two 10 gallon tanks and I have had some great successes using regular miracle grow potting soil ( I did not mineralize). A small bit of osmocote ,and a cap of about 1-2 inches of fluorite sand or regular sand. I have budget hygger lights and do not inject Co2. I do have aquaclear HOB filters on both. The tanks are over one year old. I can see through the underside of the tanks and I'm pretty sure the soil has nearly fully decomposed to humus. The tank capped with fluorite has all of my red plants in it and they are spectacular. I do have some deeply rooted plants in both tanks along with a small army of Malaysian trumpets so anaerobic areas have never been an issue in either tank. I just also recently started a 6 gallon long using the same method. The shorter height tank has had explosive results. I am also using a fluval 3.0 on the 6 gallon so the better light helps. The tank has been active for about 2 months now. I dont think theres to much need to overcomplicate the substrate preparation process.


----------



## Michael

Beautiful tanks!


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## dwalstad

Reassuring pictures of your tanks. That Red Tiger Lotus is gorgeous!

I welcome your idea of keeping it simple. Thanks for posting.


----------



## PlentyCoup

Been slowly working my way through this dicusssion i think im on page 13 now so if this question has already been asked i apologize.
Ive seen the comments about people using compost mixed with bonsai soil that i thankfully have on hand for my bonsai plants.

My question is thag i currently have 2 yards of compost left in my driveway that came from the city and is made from all the yardwaste collected im my county.
Its been furter decomposing under all the heat weve had (got it delivered in june)

Would it be safe to use since i dont know the orgin what makes up the compost?
I know chemicals can hang around some have long half lifes and thats not even inculding any diseased plant matter (which should never be put in homemade compost).

Now i have never had a issue in the ten+ years ive been putting the compost on my garden beds, but i have also never used it for a aquarium.
Any insight would be gteat,.


----------



## Michael

Yes, you can use the compost. But you need to prepare it first. Do a couple of soak-and-drain cycles first to remove excess nutrients, possible contaminants, and large floating pieces.

Then mix the compost with at least 50% high CEC substrate. I recall you mentioned Fourite in your other posts, that would be fine for this purpose. Natural top soil is usually about 5% orgnaic matter. Compost is 100% organic matter. You need to reduce the organic matter content for use as an aquarium substrate.

You can use 100% compost if the compost layer is very thin. We usually use a 1" layer of soil under the cap (less for very small aquaria and bowls). If you are using 100% compost, the layer should be only 1/2" or less.

This is a conservative approach and should avoid most of the common problems associated with soil. It is possible to use compost or 100% organic "soil" without doing any of this, but you would need to monitor water chemistry carefully and be prepared to do water changes as necessary.


----------



## PlentyCoup

Michael said:


> Yes, you can use the compost. But you need to prepare it first. Do a couple of soak-and-drain cycles first to remove excess nutrients, possible contaminants, and large floating pieces.
> 
> Then mix the compost with at least 50% high CEC substrate. I recall you mentioned Fourite in your other posts, that would be fine for this purpose. Natural top soil is usually about 5% orgnaic matter. Compost is 100% organic matter. You need to reduce the organic matter content for use as an aquarium substrate.
> 
> You can use 100% compost if the compost layer is very thin. We usually use a 1" layer of soil under the cap (less for very small aquaria and bowls). If you are using 100% compost, the layer should be only 1/2" or less.
> 
> This is a conservative approach and should avoid most of the common problems associated with soil. It is possible to use compost or 100% organic "soil" without doing any of this, but you would need to monitor water chemistry carefully and be prepared to do water changes as necessary.


Thanks i was just wondering if i would have to worry about anything since i dont know the orgins of the compost. I have the flourite and i also have the bonsai soil.
I was reading another thread on here that talked about minerilizing and adding clay (i have) and potash will that be necessary to me to do with compost. The thread talked about jist basic top soil.


----------



## Michael

You don't need the clay or potash.


----------



## PlentyCoup

Michael said:


> You don't need the clay or potash.


Good to know thanks.


----------



## dwalstad

I would be careful, since it is entirely made of organic matter. Perhaps mix it 1:1 with sand, STS, or soil from your garden? You may need to experiment.


----------



## PlentyCoup

dwalstad said:


> I would be careful, since it is entirely made of organic matter. Perhaps mix it 1:1 with sand, STS, or soil from your garden? You may need to experiment.


Your book just got delivered yesterday so ive been very slowly fumbling my way through it.
I have gone through 4 wet and dry cycles with my compost then ran it through a very fine sifter while was dry and qm left with a very fine silt like substance i can post a pic of it.
So you would advise adding both sand and STS. So a 1:1:1 ratio of the compost, sand and STS?
Just making sure i have the measurments right. I have a bag of paver base that i was was wondering if it would work. Ill take a photo of that as well.
And im assuming you are not refuring to the standard play sand?
Thanks for the advice


----------



## dwalstad

PlentyCoup said:


> Your book just got delivered yesterday so ive been very slowly fumbling my way through it.
> I have gone through 4 wet and dry cycles with my compost then ran it through a very fine sifter while was dry and qm left with a very fine silt like substance i can post a pic of it.
> So you would advise adding both sand and STS. So a 1:1:1 ratio of the compost, sand and STS?
> Just making sure i have the measurments right. I have a bag of paver base that i was was wondering if it would work. Ill take a photo of that as well.
> And im assuming you are not refuring to the standard play sand?
> Thanks for the advice


Don't make it too complicated. Either mix the compost 1:1 with sand or 1:1 with STS.

When I say sand, I was referring to play sand. A quick Google search suggests that Paver sand may cause problems (presence of bonding agents, chemicals, asbestos). _Play sand_ is safe for kids, made for their sandboxes, so if you choose to use sand, I would use it. Play sand is the only thing I have ever used. 

You are experimenting here, as there are a hundred other variables (light, water, plant species, substrate depth, etc) that will also influence the results. That said, diluting compost, which is 100% organic, with an inert material (STS or sand) is probably a good place to start.

Good luck!


----------



## imgaurav86

Hi Everyone,

I am just trying to find some good replacement of STS here in Australia as it is not available here. I tried searching in forums but couldn't find much details. Most of the Kitty litter I came across are made from 100% sodium bentonite. I am not sure if this can break down over time and release high quantity of sodium in tank. I can find another product called Fat-Sorb which is 100% Attapulgite. Some other products I found contains Zeolite.

I just want to check if any of these products can be used in tank safely or they can cause problems.

Thanks in advance


----------



## johnwesley0

imgaurav86 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am just trying to find some good replacement of STS here in Australia as it is not available here. I tried searching in forums but couldn't find much details. Most of the Kitty litter I came across are made from 100% sodium bentonite. I am not sure if this can break down over time and release high quantity of sodium in tank. I can find another product called Fat-Sorb which is 100% Attapulgite. Some other products I found contains Zeolite.
> 
> I just want to check if any of these products can be used in tank safely or they can cause problems.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Safe T Sorb (STS) is made from fired or baked clay, _montmorillinite_ clay specifically. So, you may want to widen your search terms when looking for it. I noticed on another thread that some posters also swear by something called, Oil Dri. I'm pretty sure there are no industry-wide manufacturing standards applicable to these off-label uses (like as aquarium substrates) so, it probably pays to try a little bit in a jar before introducing them to an established tank. And, yes, my understanding is that all clay products - unless they are porcelain or something of that grade - will crumble over time. I'm already thinking my 50 lb. bag may be a good investment after all!


----------



## mistergreen

Any baked clay will work. You can test your product's solubility by dumping it in a bucket of water.


----------



## florida phish fan

Late to this, but lovely tanks. What is the plant with the big green emergent leaf in the "Betta Retirement" photo? 
Btw if that's for a "senior" Betta, how nice 

Is that a 10g? Thanks. 



Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## TCS

I am 3 months in to my first Walstad guided tank.

I say guided, because I didn't have sufficient access to plants to plant as heavily as was recommended, and because I have the back of the tank deeper than recommended (I used lava rock) and the very front is a thin layer of play sand (mimicking a more traditional scaped tank).

I did follow Dr Walstad's recommendation to use MGOT (presuming organic to mean 'containing carbon'), but I didn't mineralize it.

I soak it in 5 gallon buckets, stirring it each day, until everything sinks. I don't strain any of it.

I have still ended up with some floating material, which the snails, frogbit, water lettuce, and duckweed seem to appreciate. I have done exactly 2 water changes on the tank, and added aeration to prevent any film on the surface.

I have developed algae on the back wall, which gives a more natural appearance to the tank, and I believe algae helps filter the water, too.

Malaysian Trumpet snails (MTS) and black worms made short order of the sand cap, lol. Amphipods were not opposed to help with relandscaping the tank, either. I did end up with one pocket of anaerobic bacteria, as evidenced by the rooted stem plants that died in the back corner.

I'm allowing the tank to progress at its own pace, and use trimmings from the rapid growth to fill in areas that died off. Milfoil doesn't seem to care about gas pockets, and bravely puts down roots until the gas pocket is broken up.

Several plants came with a few hitchhikers, so I now have beautiful golden red ramshorns, some amber colored bladder snail, a smaller variety of MTS (I am still waiting on my lfs to get in some chopstick snails), what appear under a microscope attachment for the phone camera to be daphnia, and we watched 3 damselfly larvae grow to adulthood before I added any fish.

The current fish load is 14 'feeder guppy' descendants from the turtle pond. The males more closely resemble wild caught endlers, but the females are guppy size, leading me to believe the feeders were crosses.

I have had planted, dirted tanks in the past, but usually used a UG filter for at least a part of the tank because 1. UGF are cheap, 2. Easy way to maintain water circulation, 3. I still use UGF on the breeder side of my divided tanks as a hands free, rather effortless method to separate fry from parents (mostly) before they get eaten.

Has anyone else experimented with a similar setup, that kept true to Walstad on only one side?

Or is it a good idea to stick with my old, "German planted" method, and add a sponge filter because fry?

As to the discussion regarding "mineralization" via wet / dry and sifting the soil, do I need to be concerned that I didn't really follow the instructions there?

Or are periodically getting floating wood chips the worst of what I need to worry about?

Because I have to say, the deep, rich tannins in the water make for interesting optical illusions as the fish appear to disappear, and then suddenly 'pop out'. Plus the tank is way less maintenance, and the fish appear healthier, more vibrant, and more active, with less neurotic swimming than is typically seen when fish see their reflections.

So glad my brother-in-law recommended The Treatise to me. This has been the least work, yet the most fun tank I have had in 4.5 decades. 

I even have gorgeous red leafed plants, with no CO2 system (other than decomposition, lol).


















(It's not an aquarium picture until a fish photobombs, right?)


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## imgaurav86

johnwesley0 said:


> Safe T Sorb (STS) is made from fired or baked clay, _montmorillinite_ clay specifically. So, you may want to widen your search terms when looking for it. I noticed on another thread that some posters also swear by something called, Oil Dri. I'm pretty sure there are no industry-wide manufacturing standards applicable to these off-label uses (like as aquarium substrates) so, it probably pays to try a little bit in a jar before introducing them to an established tank. And, yes, my understanding is that all clay products - unless they are porcelain or something of that grade - will crumble over time. I'm already thinking my 50 lb. bag may be a good investment after all!


Thanks for replying.

If STS made from fired or baked clay, can we use crushed brick or terracotta pot and that can work and provide required CEC. I found some info in forum on people using brick in substrate.

I found study about the brick particles in urban soil and it says "The CEC of bricks is grain size dependent and reaches a maximum of 6 cmolc kg−1 for particles smaller than 0.063 mm". Below is the link for study.









(PDF) Contribution of bricks to urban soil properties


PDF | Purpose Bricks are regularly found in urban soils where they can strongly impact soil properties. The purpose of this study is to investigate... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net






Thanks


----------



## johnwesley0

imgaurav86 said:


> Thanks for replying.
> 
> If STS made from fired or baked clay, can we use crushed brick or terracotta pot and that can work and provide required CEC. I found some info in forum on people using brick in substrate.
> 
> I found study about the brick particles in urban soil and it says "The CEC of bricks is grain size dependent and reaches a maximum of 6 cmolc kg−1 for particles smaller than 0.063 mm". Below is the link for study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (PDF) Contribution of bricks to urban soil properties
> 
> 
> PDF | Purpose Bricks are regularly found in urban soils where they can strongly impact soil properties. The purpose of this study is to investigate... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.researchgate.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


I guess my threshold question would be whether this stuff is commercially available or are they suggesting that you go out and clean, sieve and sort your own jar full of brick particles from a dump or vacant lot somewhere? I can't get past the practicality problem.


----------



## justwood79

hi such a nice informations, i want to ask question is it possible to use this type of gravel to mix 50/50 with soil? i cant find fluorite or any such in my country








i used this type of gravel to capped the soil im wondering if i can use this to mix the soil 50/50


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## Michael

Yes. If you have used it as a cap successfully, you can mix it with the soil. It looks very porous which is a good thing. Do you know anything about what kind of gravel it is?


----------



## justwood79

Michael said:


> Yes. If you have used it as a cap successfully, you can mix it with the soil. It looks very porous which is a good thing. Do you know anything about what kind of gravel it is?


thanks i will try mix it to my next walstad tank.
as far as i know its black volcanic gravel but not sure its comes from magma or maybe other sources, yes its very porous also very light i had to mix it with a bit heavier gravel to make the plants steady also its very2 cheap..from the looks its similar to flourite black gravel there's no information flourite black gravel made of so i cant say they're same gravel


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## Michael

Sounds perfect for what you need.


----------



## HPC

Just to clarify, the clay (cat litter) - which is added to the soil about half and half -- that clay-cat litter goes through the mineralization process? Or do we add the cat litter to the soil after it has been mineralized?

I'm absolutely new to NPT's. There seem so many, not just different approaches, but contradictory. The youtuber - Foo the Flowerhorn - uses half worm castings and half chicken manure, which -- in the context of this forum discussion -- would seem overly rich with nutrients?


----------



## dwalstad

Please do not use kitty litter! It is for cats, not aquariums. It quickly turns to mud and reacts with the soil to generate aluminum toxicity. It also forms a dense, thick, gooey mass. I don't think mineralizing will help. One hobbyist (maico996) has already described a disaster using a kitty litter soil mix. He had to tear the tank down and start over. 

In my book, I advise using either pure potting soil or pure garden soil as an underlayer. That hasn't changed. 

If you are worried about excess nutrients or what-not, then I would suggest mixing the soil half and half with sand or STS clay. STS is baked at a higher temperature so that it doesn't immediately break down into mud like kitty litter does. Sand is inert and won't leach aluminum or iron and cause metal toxicity. Or just use pure soil and mineralize it according to Michael's procedure.

There are all kinds of pitfalls when you start mixing soils or when you substitute bizarre soil amendments (worm castings or chicken manure) for ordinary soil.


----------



## maico996

dwalstad said:


> Please do not use kitty litter! It is for cats, not aquariums. It quickly turns to mud and reacts with the soil to generate aluminum toxicity. It also forms a dense, thick, gooey mass. I don't think mineralizing will help. One hobbyist (maico996) has already described a disaster using a kitty litter soil mix. He had to tear the tank down and start over.


Don't use cat litter. Keep it simple...dirt and gravel.


----------



## Roscoe Richardson

TheGarbagePile said:


> I run two 10 gallon tanks and I have had some great successes using regular miracle grow potting soil ( I did not mineralize). A small bit of osmocote ,and a cap of about 1-2 inches of fluorite sand or regular sand. I have budget hygger lights and do not inject Co2. I do have aquaclear HOB filters on both. The tanks are over one year old. I can see through the underside of the tanks and I'm pretty sure the soil has nearly fully decomposed to humus. The tank capped with fluorite has all of my red plants in it and they are spectacular. I do have some deeply rooted plants in both tanks along with a small army of Malaysian trumpets so anaerobic areas have never been an issue in either tank. I just also recently started a 6 gallon long using the same method. The shorter height tank has had explosive results. I am also using a fluval 3.0 on the 6 gallon so the better light helps. The tank has been active for about 2 months now. I dont think theres to much need to overcomplicate the substrate preparation process.
> 
> View attachment 73858
> View attachment 73860
> View attachment 73861


I have some Miracle Grow Natures Care Garden Soil in a 10 gallon capped and soaking for a few weeks with weekly water changes under blackout with no lights. My first go round with this soil produced very cloudy water for a while so I’m giving it a chance to break down a little and leach some tannins and stuff before planting. However…I gotta ask how many individual tiger lotus plants you have in this tank. Is it just two? I’m planning on filling in alot of the tanks area with Tiger lotus the way you have. Wondering how many bulbs to get.


----------



## Michael

Red tiger lotus grows quite large! A single plant could outgrow a 10 gallon tank by itself.


----------



## Roscoe Richardson

Michael said:


> Red tiger lotus grows quite large! A single plant could outgrow a 10 gallon tank by itself.


So let me ask you…is this ten gallon with the tiger lotus and Kleiner Bar a nifty photo that looked really nice at this moment in time but is not really workable for any length of time because those plants would overgrow the tank? And just to relate it back to soil…those are heavy root feeders. Would an organic potting soil like was used hold up for long in this tank planted the way it is?


----------



## snake90890

What's up everybody awesome discussion I have been reading a lot about this and was very disappointed that there was no more Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix at home depot. It has helped me a lot as I am new at aquariums in general. Have a biology degree and am naturally drawn to the ecosystem aquariums versus "regular" aquariums. I ordered a bunch of plants yesterday but needed some soil to plant them in. I was thinking of doing the 50:50 mix of topsoil and STS. I just went to the store and bought the cheapest bag of topsoil I could find that said organic on it. Shouldn't have any fertilizers or inorganics. Was wondering if you guys had any knowledge on this topsoil or if it is the right move? There are only instructions for different areas of a garden on the back so here's the description from Home Depot's website. 1.5 cu. ft. Pro Top Soil-ProTS - The Home Depot









Also is this the STS I'm suppose to get? Amazon.com: E P Minerals 7941 Safe-T-Sorb, 40 lb : Arts, Crafts & Sewing


----------



## Michael

Roscoe Richardson said:


> So let me ask you…is this ten gallon with the tiger lotus and Kleiner Bar a nifty photo that looked really nice at this moment in time but is not really workable for any length of time because those plants would overgrow the tank? And just to relate it back to soil…those are heavy root feeders. Would an organic potting soil like was used hold up for long in this tank planted the way it is?


You can manage their growth by trimming them back periodically. Do expect them to crowd the entire tank with foliage, which is OK if that is what you want, or don't mind the maintenance to keep them in check.

Organic soils do provide a lot of natural CO2 at first, which fuels explosive plant growth in the first 6 months or so. Then soil CO2 production tapers off, and is partially replaced by respiration from animals and the plants themselves. This should still be enough for swords and water lilies (a.k.a. lotus). And water lilies can absorb CO2 from the air if you allow them to grow floating leaves. Other nutrients released from soil taper off too, but are replaced by fish food and fish waste. After the tank reaches this stable "steady state", you can use root tabs to give the plants a boost if they need it. Red tiger lotus in my 10 year old Walstad tank get a few root tabs every few months.

I don't mean to discourage you--go for it! It will be beautiful, interesting, and you will learn a lot. A 10 gallon tank is small enough to easily maintain and start over if you want.


----------



## Michael

snake90890 said:


> What's up everybody awesome discussion I have been reading a lot about this and was very disappointed that there was no more Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix at home depot. It has helped me a lot as I am new at aquariums in general. Have a biology degree and am naturally drawn to the ecosystem aquariums versus "regular" aquariums. I ordered a bunch of plants yesterday but needed some soil to plant them in. I was thinking of doing the 50:50 mix of topsoil and STS. I just went to the store and bought the cheapest bag of topsoil I could find that said organic on it. Shouldn't have any fertilizers or inorganics. Was wondering if you guys had any knowledge on this topsoil or if it is the right move? There are only instructions for different areas of a garden on the back so here's the description from Home Depot's website. 1.5 cu. ft. Pro Top Soil-ProTS - The Home Depot
> 
> Also is this the STS I'm suppose to get? Amazon.com: E P Minerals 7941 Safe-T-Sorb, 40 lb : Arts, Crafts & Sewing


Welcome to APC! 

Both products are what you need. Miracle Grow changed the names of all its products a few years ago, such are the evils of marketing. The soil you found does not have manure or other fertilizers, which are the ingredients that most often cause problems. Personal opinion: it is better than the Miracle Grow you couldn't find.

Good luck and show us photos!


----------



## Roscoe Richardson

Michael said:


> You can manage their growth by trimming them back periodically. Do expect them to crowd the entire tank with foliage, which is OK if that is what you want, or don't mind the maintenance to keep them in check.
> 
> Organic soils do provide a lot of natural CO2 at first, which fuels explosive plant growth in the first 6 months or so. Then soil CO2 production tapers off, and is partially replaced by respiration from animals and the plants themselves. This should still be enough for swords and water lilies (a.k.a. lotus). And water lilies can absorb CO2 from the air if you allow them to grow floating leaves. Other nutrients released from soil taper off too, but are replaced by fish food and fish waste. After the tank reaches this stable "steady state", you can use root tabs to give the plants a boost if they need it. Red tiger lotus in my 10 year old Walstad tank get a few root tabs every few months.
> 
> I don't mean to discourage you--go for it! It will be beautiful, interesting, and you will learn a lot. A 10 gallon tank is small enough to easily maintain and start over if you want.


Thanks for the articulate response! The appeal of such big plants in a small tank is that with relatively few plants you can have a full well planted tank that doesn’t break the bank and looks fantastic! I don’t mind clipping a few big leaves here and there. That kind of attention sounds less demanding than trimming giant hedges of pearl weed or hornwort actually. The whole idea of a tank achieving a balance point where for the most part the fish and plants prop up their little ecosystem is the cool part of El Natural that got me hooked. I don’t mind adding a little here and there to keep it going…that happens in nature when leaves blow into streams and ponds and insects land on the surface and get eaten. As an aquarium keeper though I am the rain, and the wind.


----------



## Michael

Roscoe Richardson said:


> The whole idea of a tank achieving a balance point where for the most part the fish and plants prop up their little ecosystem is the cool part of El Natural that got me hooked.


That is exactly what appealed to me, plus the low maintenance and technological simplicity.


----------



## snake90890

Ok everyone I drove about 20 minutes away to grab some Safe-T-Sorb (STS) at the "local" Tractor Supply Co and I just got done stirring my bucket full of soil. When I opened the bag of topsoil though I was sad to see perlite was added to the soil. I'm hoping that over 3 days or so of stirring and draining and skimming that all of it will come out of the soil, there wasn't a whole lot just barely noticeable. 
Has anyone else had perlite in the soil, if so how did you deal with it? I also already ordered my plants yesterday so I won't be doing the full drying and mineralizing of the soil. I got a little bit ahead of myself and jumped the gun. Plants will be in with the pictures I got a bunch of them. 
Also, my tank is in the basement do you think my lighting is enough? I have an 18", full T8 spectrum, 15 watt light. Should I raise the light of the tank, I don't know what a good starting place would be?
I will also include the tank as it is set up right now with its measly three plants and bright blue gravel. My betta died in this tank due to fungus and ich, I ordered some fungus and ich treatments and I'm breaking down the whole tank and washing it out with water. Any advice on not bringing ich or fungus to the new tank would be appreciated.

Sorry lots of questions as usual


----------



## mistergreen

Perlite is not a big deal. Net out any floating perlite That you see.


----------



## dwalstad

Perlite is no big deal; it's just glass balls popped out like popcorn to provide aeration for houseplants. You can skim them off from water surface after tank setup.

The ich swarmers from the sick fish will die out in about 4 days (75F) without a fish host. Fungus is endemic and a secondary infection; it can be ignored.

Slow the bubbling down on that corner filter; you don't want to drive off all CO2.

Plants: Java fern should be attached to a small rock that rests on bottom glass. Don't bury rhizomes of Java ferns and Anubias in the substrate; often they will rot. The stem plants in the middle look like Hornwort? If so, it has no roots and does not need to be planted. It's a good water purifier but it will do nothing to purify soil substrate, nor take advantage of soil substrate. You need rooted plants--Val, Crypt, Sag, some robust stem plants (Rotalia sp, Bacopa caroliniana)--if you want to use soil substrate. 

That said, the Water Sprite (your frilly fern like plant) will take advantage of a soil substrate if it likes your tank's conditions. I would put it in the tank middle to get the most light and let its roots spread out. 

A soil layer of less than 1 inch made up of half soil, half STS should work well for rooted plants, BUT you have a deficiency of rooted plants so you might want to either get some rooted plants or make the soil layer thinner than 1 inch. Or just hope that your Water Sprite takes off.


----------



## snake90890

Ok awesome woke up this morning to pour out my soaking soil and a lot of the perlite came out so that’s awesome! Glad to hear it’s not an issue, thank you.

The tank has been running for about a week without fish so that should be good, the ich should be gone. Thank you for verifying all of that!

I’m also very happy to hear that I can reuse these plants after I break down the tank for the soil. The Java fern is not doing super great probably because I buried the rhizomes the leaves are black and melting. The other two plants are doing pretty well the hornwort loves the tank so far. I got 3 Vallisneria and a Helanthium and dwarf hair grass so that should be enough for rooting. Then hopefully the Java fern, Anubius, Christmas moss, and micranthimum will do ok without as much rooting.
I was going for a 1 inch of 50:50 soil/STS and then 1-1.5” cap of coarse sand.

I just ordered a new light as well the Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light which should do well for all the plants I ordered and leave room for adjustability. If anyone has any advice on this light it would be very much appreciated as my plants are in the basement and won’t be getting sun.








Amazon.com: Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 18 to 24-Inch : Everything Else


Amazon.com: Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 18 to 24-Inch : Everything Else



www.amazon.com


----------



## johnwesley0

Roscoe Richardson said:


> Thanks for the articulate response! The appeal of such big plants in a small tank is that with relatively few plants you can have a full well planted tank that doesn’t break the bank and looks fantastic! I don’t mind clipping a few big leaves here and there. That kind of attention sounds less demanding than trimming giant hedges of pearl weed or hornwort actually. The whole idea of a tank achieving a balance point where for the most part the fish and plants prop up their little ecosystem is the cool part of El Natural that got me hooked. I don’t mind adding a little here and there to keep it going…that happens in nature when leaves blow into streams and ponds and insects land on the surface and get eaten. As an aquarium keeper though I am the rain, and the wind.


Be aware that in one crucial sense, lotuses may not be the conventional choice to start a Walstad tank. And, that is because for at least the first month of their existence - if you are growing them from a bulb - they aren't really great water purifiers. Until they reach maturity most of their nutrients come from the bulb itself. To achieve that steady state balance between fish waste and plants, you will need to supplement the lotuses with some other purifiers. Think floaters. Think lucky bamboo. Plants that won't directly compete with a lotus once they get fully grown.

Of course, you can always purchase a fully grown lotus. But, they're way more expensive than the bulbs.


----------



## dwalstad

snake90890 said:


> Ok awesome woke up this morning to pour out my soaking soil and a lot of the perlite came out so that’s awesome! Glad to hear it’s not an issue, thank you.
> 
> The tank has been running for about a week without fish so that should be good, the ich should be gone. Thank you for verifying all of that!
> 
> I’m also very happy to hear that I can reuse these plants after I break down the tank for the soil. The Java fern is not doing super great probably because I buried the rhizomes the leaves are black and melting. The other two plants are doing pretty well the hornwort loves the tank so far. I got 3 Vallisneria and a Helanthium and dwarf hair grass so that should be enough for rooting. Then hopefully the Java fern, Anubius, Christmas moss, and micranthimum will do ok without as much rooting.
> I was going for a 1 inch of 50:50 soil/STS and then 1-1.5” cap of coarse sand.
> 
> I just ordered a new light as well the Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light which should do well for all the plants I ordered and leave room for adjustability. If anyone has any advice on this light it would be very much appreciated as my plants are in the basement and won’t be getting sun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 18 to 24-Inch : Everything Else
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 18 to 24-Inch : Everything Else
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


Sounds promising. Glad to see you got some Val and other rooted species. I admire this effort. 

Try to keep the soil cap at less than 1 inch. 

Dry STS is light and will float, so rinse it once with water and then let the damp STS sit at least overnight. That way the STS won't float to surface during planting or disrupt the soil layer. Remember that when you use STS, you want the smaller particles that cause cloudiness, so don't go rinsing STS endlessly like a lot of people do. Just once or twice is enough.

Good luck!


----------



## snake90890

dwalstad said:


> Sounds promising. Glad to see you got some Val and other rooted species. I admire this effort.
> 
> Try to keep the soil cap at less than 1 inch.
> 
> Dry STS is light and will float, so rinse it once with water and then let the damp STS sit at least overnight. That way the STS won't float to surface during planting or disrupt the soil layer. Remember that when you use STS, you want the smaller particles that cause cloudiness, so don't go rinsing STS endlessly like a lot of people do. Just once or twice is enough.
> 
> Good luck!


.

Awesome thank you so much! I'm trying my best to get a good variety that can all fill their own niche within the tank. I was curious how to slow down the bubbles in my filter? Or if I should take it out altogether?


----------



## dwalstad

I use an gang valve to regulate air flow from my air pumps. Air valves are cheap and readily available. Otherwise, unnecessary, uncontrolled bubbling will degas out badly needed CO2. You could also try pin-pricking a tiny hole in the plastic tubing to leak out air and decrease the air flow. (This is the fun stuff that long-time hobbyists do to pass the time of day.  )

You can also try running the filter just for a few hours, preferably at night when oxygen levels are the lowest. For this sort of thing, I use $7 mechanical timers from hardware stores. You could hook up your air-pump to a timer or just unplug the air pump during the day.


----------



## snake90890

Ok, awesome! I will look at getting a little air valve from the store, and I have a timer until then. 

I have been using the bucket method to prepare my soil for the past 3 days and usually skim and pour and then refill and stir the water every morning and night. When I went to look at my soil there seemed to be some larger bits of wood still visible at the top of the soil. My question is if there ends up being a little amount of wood is that ok? I'm going to investigate further to see if that wood is consistent throughout the bucket or just settling at the top.


----------



## Michael

A small amount of wood chips in the soil is OK, as long as they sink. If they float, they can make a minor mess in the tank when you plant.


----------



## dwalstad

snake90890 said:


> Ok, awesome! I will look at getting a little air valve from the store, and I have a timer until then.
> 
> I have been using the bucket method to prepare my soil for the past 3 days and usually skim and pour and then refill and stir the water every morning and night. When I went to look at my soil there seemed to be some larger bits of wood still visible at the top of the soil. My question is if there ends up being a little amount of wood is that ok? I'm going to investigate further to see if that wood is consistent throughout the bucket or just settling at the top.


There's no need to remove small wood pieces. The gravel cover should hold them down. Even if they float, you can skim small pieces out with a fish net.


----------



## Roscoe Richardson

I set up a 10 gallon 2 weeks ago with an inch of Miracle Grow Natures Care Garden Soil and capped it with an inch and a half of 2-3mm gravel. I air dried the soil first and sifted it through a window screen before wetting, capping, and filling the tank. I have kept a heater and air stone running and covered the whole thing with black plastic to block light. No stirring…just soaking the soil and doing a weekly water change. This is the second water change so far. Lots of tannins!!! I’m thinking a couple more weeks before I add plants.


----------



## SuitableUserName

Hello,
I wanted to ask if straight Flourite isn't a suitable substrate for the Diana Walstad method? I see some mentions of Flourite caps over soil but didn't find anyone reporting solely using Flourite. Many thanks in advance for your replies.


----------



## johnwesley0

SuitableUserName said:


> Hello,
> I wanted to ask if straight Flourite isn't a suitable substrate for the Diana Walstad method? I see some mentions of Flourite caps over soil but didn't find anyone reporting solely using Flourite. Many thanks in advance for your replies.


Isn't flourite an inert substance?


----------



## Michael

SuitableUserName said:


> Hello,
> I wanted to ask if straight Flourite isn't a suitable substrate for the Diana Walstad method? I see some mentions of Flourite caps over soil but didn't find anyone reporting solely using Flourite. Many thanks in advance for your replies.


Welcome to APC!

The answer is no. Flourite has high CEC but only traces of micronutrients. And it does not produce any natural CO2, so it does not provide two of the major functions of soil. Flourtie is a good cap, and is suitable for mixing with a highly fertile organic soil in the same way SafeTSorb is.


----------



## SuitableUserName

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> The answer is no. Flourite has high CEC but only traces of micronutrients. And it does not produce any natural CO2, so it does not provide two of the major functions of soil. Flourtie is a good cap, and is suitable for mixing with a highly fertile organic soil in the same way SafeTSorb is.


Understood, thank you very much.


----------



## SuitableUserName

Michael, may I ask you a further question? I got D. Walstad's book, have read it all since my first question (would have been best to do before asking) and understand the need for real soil now and the necessity of keeping the substrate layer shallow enough to prevent anaerobic conditions. 
I am wondering however if one might want it slightly deeper than 1" if growing mostly Echinodorus spp. due to their vigorous roots, in order to give them sufficient? I am planning a 20g aquarium, the height is 15-1/2" I am doing a bottle test with my native topsoil from the pasture behind my house.
Further, does mixing Flourite give one some leeway to deepen the substrate by aerating the soil, or is that basically just diluting the soil and therefore of little use?
Thirdly, do you guys recommend a particular water test for pH and hardness measurements?
Thank you very much in advance.


----------



## Michael

Good questions!

I have accidentally set up tanks with soil depth as much as 1.5" and they were OK. But I don't recommend it. If you want the total substrate to be deeper than 1" of soil and 1" of cap, use a cap that is a little deeper with larger particles but keep the soil at 1". Cap particle size should still be 2-4 mm, just don't use anything smaller.

Mixing Flourite with soil is good if your soil is higly organic or very fertile. It reduces the organic matter percentage and fertility. But it doesn't help much with anaerobic conditions. If the jar test on your natural topsoil turns out well, use that without mixing it with anything else.

I'll let someone else recommend a water test. My tap water is very consistent, and after testing the first few tanks I don't bother anymore. I'm lucky!


----------



## SuitableUserName

Michael said:


> Good questions!
> 
> I have accidentally set up tanks with soil depth as much as 1.5" and they were OK. But I don't recommend it. If you want the total substrate to be deeper than 1" of soil and 1" of cap, use a cap that is a little deeper with larger particles but keep the soil at 1". Cap particle size should still be 2-4 mm, just don't use anything smaller.
> 
> Mixing Flourite with soil is good if your soil is higly organic or very fertile. It reduces the organic matter percentage and fertility. But it doesn't help much with anaerobic conditions. If the jar test on your natural topsoil turns out well, use that without mixing it with anything else.
> 
> I'll let someone else recommend a water test. My tap water is very consistent, and after testing the first few tanks I don't bother anymore. I'm lucky!


Thank you. I really appreciate this forum and your tireless answering of questions. I've been lucky to pick up a collection of Metaframe aquariums and have decided to use the 5 gallon as a first trial, before embarking on my 20 gallons, as it will be inexpensive and easy to tear down if I make mistakes.


----------



## HardyMiniatures

Hi everyone. Long time lurker first time poster. I'm starting my 5th soil tank, this being the largest yet (55g) and I was hoping I could get some advice. Would BuildaSoil 3.0 potting soil capped with sand work? BuildASoil Potting Soil Version 3.0. Would I also need to mix in STS?


----------



## johnwesley0

HardyMiniatures said:


> Hi everyone. Long time lurker first time poster. I'm starting my 5th soil tank, this being the largest yet (55g) and I was hoping I could get some advice. Would BuildaSoil 3.0 potting soil capped with sand work? BuildASoil Potting Soil Version 3.0. Would I also need to mix in STS?


I would experiment with a small jar of water and an inch of BuildASoil and whatever else you would like to add to it. STS is just baked clay and inert as far as organic material is concerned. I would want to know how cloudy it gets in a small jar and how long it takes to disappear on its own before I tried scaling it up in a 55 gallon tank.


----------



## HardyMiniatures

johnwesley0 said:


> I would experiment with a small jar of water and an inch of BuildASoil and whatever else you would like to add to it. STS is just baked clay and inert as far as organic material is concerned. I would want to know how cloudy it gets in a small jar and how long it takes to disappear on its own before I tried scaling it up in a 55 gallon tank.


Great idea. I have a few 2-3 gallon jars I can test it out in. In the past, even the messiest of soils tended to have no cloudiness when I capped it with sand. Will be a good time to experiment to see if it's still the case with BuildASoil.

Does anyone know if the soil composition is good or will it cause issues?


----------



## Roscoe Richardson

SuitableUserName said:


> Thank you. I really appreciate this forum and your tireless answering of questions. I've been lucky to pick up a collection of Metaframe aquariums and have decided to use the 5 gallon as a first trial, before embarking on my 20 gallons, as it will be inexpensive and easy to tear down if I make mistakes.


I did a 5 gallon for my first NPT and learned a few things that I really wouldn’t have wanted to on a larger one. Scaled up to a 10 for my next tank and with what I learned have a tank I’m happy with. There are lots of variables from how a soil is going to behave to the way light reaches different areas of the tank that I didn’t consider when I set up the 5. I’m feeling confident enough now though that I’m seeing maybe a 40 or 50 in the future.


----------



## SuitableUserName

Roscoe Richardson said:


> I did a 5 gallon for my first NPT and learned a few things that I really wouldn’t have wanted to on a larger one. Scaled up to a 10 for my next tank and with what I learned have a tank I’m happy with. There are lots of variables from how a soil is going to behave to the way light reaches different areas of the tank that I didn’t consider when I set up the 5. I’m feeling confident enough now though that I’m seeing maybe a 40 or 50 in the future.


Yes, nothing beats actually doing it. I am just about to set up my 20, having found lots of plants in my swimming hole I can harvest for it. Sure beats paying!


----------



## SuitableUserName

I'd like to make an anecdotal report on my recent experience with different substrates.
My 5 gallon I used straight topsoil with fine gravel covering. I experienced lots of pearling on plants initially followed by very slow growth and both Echinodorus tenellus and Sagittaria sp. putting out transparent, colorless leaves that eventually, after weeks, turned green. I also had a fair bit of hair algae which eventually calmed down. Similarly, I have a goldfish bowl with Heteranthera zosterifolia that took many weeks to do anything. It's now healthy and slow-growing under fairly low light with cold water.

For my 20 gallon, I mixed equal parts of the same, local clay-loam topsoil, Fluorite and washed Leonardite. I also added Azomite. Same, fine gravel on top. This was in a possibly foolish attempt to give my substrate everything it might need and not rely on whatever my topsoil has or hasn't. I am getting much better plant growth so far. I have not experienced any yellowing of the water from the Leonardite.

How much this has to do with the volume of water, I don't know. The other differences are I am not heating my 20 gallon and it is illuminated by LED, rather than CFL, same color temp tho'.









For those interested, left to right I have Eleocharis acicularis, Hydrocotyle verticillata, Sagittaria platyphylla, Lobelia cardinalis, Bacopa monnieri, B. caroliniana, Samolus ebracteatus?, Ludwigia palustris x repens?, Echinodorus tenellus, E. cordifolius "Harbich", Polygonum hydropiperoides (not really visible in photo), Potamogeton illinoensis and Myriophyllum heterophyllum.

I highly recommend collecting plants where possible and legal, it is so much cheaper and more satisfying.

I have added many pond snails, that do a very good job of cleaning off the calcified coating on all the plants in my swimming hole. I also have a couple of red spider mites that swim around. I plan to stock with Florida Flagfish, perhaps 1 male and 3 or 4 females.


----------



## Dima82

Dear aquatic lovers, could you please advise if the following soil is suitable for a Walstad tank: *Terra Aquatica Organic soil light-mix 50L.

The description of the soil is following: T.A Organic soil light-mix - Terra Aquatica*

Terra Aquatica Organic Soil Light-Mix 50 l, organic substrate
Light soil mixture for indoor and outdoor cultivation with low EC. Organic Soil Light-Mix with perlite from Terra Aquatica (ex GHE) does not contain any peat, but a mixture of organic compost and wood and coconut fiber of premium quality. It promotes mutual symbiosis between roots and beneficial fungi (Trichoderma Harzianum).

It is known that peat extraction releases carbon into the atmosphere, in addition to devastating rare communities of various organisms. That's why Terra Aquatica has taken a more natural path.










*Advantages of the organic substrate Terra Aquatica Soil Light-Mix*

suitable for beginners and commercial growers
ideal combination with a range of Terra Aquatica Organic fertilizers
perfectly airy thanks to the added perlite
with a minimum carbon content
without a negative impact on the environment in the form of peat extraction
ideally retains water and oxygen
minimum shrinkage between waterings
My concern is that the soil contains coconut fiber, perlite, and other wood particles. Is it an issue? Thank you in advance.


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## johnwesley0

Dima82 said:


> Dear aquatic lovers, could you please advise if the following soil is suitable for a Walstad tank: *Terra Aquatica Organic soil light-mix 50L.
> 
> The description of the soil is following: T.A Organic soil light-mix - Terra Aquatica*
> 
> Terra Aquatica Organic Soil Light-Mix 50 l, organic substrate
> Light soil mixture for indoor and outdoor cultivation with low EC. Organic Soil Light-Mix with perlite from Terra Aquatica (ex GHE) does not contain any peat, but a mixture of organic compost and wood and coconut fiber of premium quality. It promotes mutual symbiosis between roots and beneficial fungi (Trichoderma Harzianum).
> 
> It is known that peat extraction releases carbon into the atmosphere, in addition to devastating rare communities of various organisms. That's why Terra Aquatica has taken a more natural path.
> 
> View attachment 75195
> 
> 
> *Advantages of the organic substrate Terra Aquatica Soil Light-Mix*
> 
> suitable for beginners and commercial growers
> ideal combination with a range of Terra Aquatica Organic fertilizers
> perfectly airy thanks to the added perlite
> with a minimum carbon content
> without a negative impact on the environment in the form of peat extraction
> ideally retains water and oxygen
> minimum shrinkage between waterings
> My concern is that the soil contains coconut fiber, perlite, and wood particles. Is it an issue? Thank you in advance.


I don't see a problem with wood particles unless they are trapped with no access to oxygen or with coconut fiber. But perlite will constantly float to the top of water and is a pain to get rid of.


----------



## mistergreen

Dima82 said:


> Dear aquatic lovers, could you please advise if the following soil is suitable for a Walstad tank: *Terra Aquatica Organic soil light-mix 50L.
> 
> The description of the soil is following: T.A Organic soil light-mix - Terra Aquatica*
> 
> Terra Aquatica Organic Soil Light-Mix 50 l, organic substrate
> Light soil mixture for indoor and outdoor cultivation with low EC. Organic Soil Light-Mix with perlite from Terra Aquatica (ex GHE) does not contain any peat, but a mixture of organic compost and wood and coconut fiber of premium quality. It promotes mutual symbiosis between roots and beneficial fungi (Trichoderma Harzianum).
> 
> It is known that peat extraction releases carbon into the atmosphere, in addition to devastating rare communities of various organisms. That's why Terra Aquatica has taken a more natural path.
> 
> View attachment 75195
> 
> 
> *Advantages of the organic substrate Terra Aquatica Soil Light-Mix*
> 
> suitable for beginners and commercial growers
> ideal combination with a range of Terra Aquatica Organic fertilizers
> perfectly airy thanks to the added perlite
> with a minimum carbon content
> without a negative impact on the environment in the form of peat extraction
> ideally retains water and oxygen
> minimum shrinkage between waterings
> My concern is that the soil contains coconut fiber, perlite, and other wood particles. Is it an issue? Thank you in advance.


This might work better as a cap substrate with regular garden soil on the bottom.








GROROX - Terra Aquatica


Natural clay composition for excellent oxygenation and drainage. Grorox clay pebbles are a light and completely re-usable substrate for hydroponic […]




www.terraaquatica.com


----------



## johnwesley0

I'd like to report another use for Safe-T-Sorb (STS). I was faced with the task of cleaning up a year and a half's build-up of mulm and decayed vegetation at the bottom of my bowl. It was so bad that the slightest movement of the water sent up a blanket of thick, smokey, soup. The problem was that I just couldn't figure out a practical way of suctioning it up. Moreover, I had the feeling that I would be throwing out a lot of nutrients that might be useful for future plantings. Well, 24 hours after adding a "cap" of STS to the bottom of the bowl which itself turned the bowl into a soupy mess, the mulm has more or less disappeared. The water has remained crystal clear even after poking around the substrate with new plants.


----------



## mistergreen

johnwesley0 said:


> I'd like to report another use for Safe-T-Sorb (STS). I was faced with the task of cleaning up a year and a half's build-up of mulm and decayed vegetation at the bottom of my bowl. It was so bad that the slightest movement of the water sent up a blanket of thick, smokey, soup. The problem was that I just couldn't figure out a practical way of suctioning it up. Moreover, I had the feeling that I would be throwing out a lot of nutrients that might be useful for future plantings. Well, 24 hours after adding a "cap" of STS to the bottom of the bowl which itself turned the bowl into a soupy mess, the mulm has more or less disappeared. The water has remained crystal clear even after poking around the substrate with new plants.


Makes sense. STS is used to clean up oil and chemical spills.


----------



## dwalstad

johnwesley0 said:


> I'd like to report another use for Safe-T-Sorb (STS). I was faced with the task of cleaning up a year and a half's build-up of mulm and decayed vegetation at the bottom of my bowl. It was so bad that the slightest movement of the water sent up a blanket of thick, smokey, soup. The problem was that I just couldn't figure out a practical way of suctioning it up. Moreover, I had the feeling that I would be throwing out a lot of nutrients that might be useful for future plantings. Well, 24 hours after adding a "cap" of STS to the bottom of the bowl which itself turned the bowl into a soupy mess, the mulm has more or less disappeared. The water has remained crystal clear even after poking around the substrate with new plants.


Great info! I still have about 20 lb of unused STS. I am going to try that.


----------



## DFSmith

Hello all,

I don't remember if I posted here before, because, if I did, it was a long time ago. I'm about to set up a new 10 gallon planted tank, and I've been doing that process of mineralizing the soil that Michael describes in one of the posts in this thread. My question is, will I have to add any high CEC material/particles to it, or is it ok to just do the mineralization?

I happen to have quite a lot of Bonsai Jack cactus mix, which has a lot of turface. Would it be a good idea to add it to the organic soil that I'm mineralizing? The particle size in this cactus mix is around 3-4 mm.

Btw, the organic soil I'm going to use is Edna's Best Potting Soil - Indoors and Outdoors. 

Thank you in advance!


----------



## mistergreen

No, you don't need to add high CEC materials to the soil. The organics in the soil are the highest CEC component.


----------



## DFSmith

mistergreen said:


> No, you don't need to add high CEC materials to the soil. The organics in the soil are the highest CEC component.


Thank you! I have Diana's Walstad book, but I honestly need to re-read it. Read it the first time over 3 years ago.


----------



## dwalstad

Yes, please re-read the book's chapter on substrates. If you have a good plant supply, there's no need to mineralize the soil ahead of time
Usually, the problem is too much soil richness (nutrients, organic matter, etc) after submerging an organic soil. No need to pile on more! Some people have had good luck mixing potting soil 1:1 with something inert--sand or STS clay. This tones down the "richness" of an organic soil.


----------



## DFSmith

dwalstad said:


> Yes, please re-read the book's chapter on substrates. If you have a good plant supply, there's no need to mineralize the soil ahead of time
> Usually, the problem is too much soil richness (nutrients, organic matter, etc) after submerging an organic soil. No need to pile on more! Some people have had good luck mixing potting soil 1:1 with something inert--sand or STS clay. This tones down the "richness" of an organic soil.


Thank you so much, Dr. Walstad! I’m in the process of reading your amazing book again, as well as your updates, from your site.


----------



## Bluefassa

How deep is too deep for the soil layer and or the cap, currently trying to set up a quick tank but also the right way, I have two different kinds of miracle grow organic stuff (not the potting mix) one bag is super heavy and one is light, I have a bag of peat moss, two bags of Scott's top soil and a 40 pound bag of humus, was going to try to mix a bunch of things together until it occurred to me I have no idea what I'm doing, I know this is an old thread but any help would be extremely appreciated, the next half dozen tanks I set up will all attempt to duplicate the walstad method but this 1st one will be my first attempt at a dirted tank and I'm terrified!!!!


----------



## Bluefassa

Additionally would it be stupid to mix my soil mix with ecocomplete to tone it down or is the grain size too large to be useful, I read people adding sand or clay to the mix which seems it would make the soil more compacted and prone to the anaerobic issues, I believe my 40 pound bag of humus is already mixed with sand, I know corydora and other active bottom dwellers won't dig deep enough to get to the soil layer but I do wonder about Malaysian trumpet snails and that's why I was initially considering a little thicker cap than normal, probably over thinking everything here as usual!!!


----------



## Michael

The safest course is to follow the recommendation of 1" of soil with 1" of cap. Malayan trumpet snails will not cause a problem.

With highly organic and/or high nutrient soils, adding something like EcoComplete can help. The important characteristic here is high cation exchange capacity (CEC) with little or no nutreints. EcoComplete and many other less expensive aquarium substrates fit this description. These substrates absorb nutrients and keep them in the substrate layer until plant roots can use them instead of releasing nutrients into the water where algae can use them.


----------



## dwalstad

Let me put in a pitch for ordinary garden soil (terrestrial loam type). The density and small particle size of _real_ soil makes it attractive.
Some of these expensive commercial substrates look like gravel to me. Gravel or sand has too large a particle size to have a high CEC. You have to have a big surface area for nutrient binding sites. The more surface area, the more potential for nutrient binding sites. The surface area of gravel and sand are thousands of times less than clay particles.


----------



## maico996

Keep. It. Simple.


----------



## TKoperski

Hello,

I was looking for a soil that would be similar to the one you recommend here but unfortunately in Poland practically all that are available are based on high peat and/or low peat with artificial fertilizer added. The only one I found that in my opinion fits the recommendations is a mix (high peat, compost, calcium carbonate, guano, horn meal).
In your opinion, can something like this be a good choice ?

There is still the possibility of mixing soil with compost. I only found one created from the production of mushrooms, but I do not know what is there in the composition and whether it will be safe.


----------



## dwalstad

Are


TKoperski said:


> The only one I found that in my opinion fits the recommendations is a mix (high peat, compost, calcium carbonate, guano, horn meal).
> In your opinion, can something like this be a good choice ?


If this soil is sold at a reputable, decent store for growing houseplants, then it probably is fine. I would use less than my recommendations of a 1 inch (2.5 cm) deep layer. You could mix it 1:1 with sand, which is inert. The sand will reduce any problems that an over-rich, too fertile, too organic soil might create. 

I would not mix a potting soil with compost. Compost could make it severely anaerobic. All that rich organic matter will decompose.


----------



## PlentyCoup

Sticking these possible options here as well. I know cacti soils are good option.

Epsomes cacti mix (i just realized i have two bags and the make up is slightly different) hered one bag.









And Mirical-gros cacti mix










And lastly a mix from a local greenhouse.









I have go and get STS or a simular product because i have nothing on habd to mix it with besides sand, and another betta caught my eye that i want to pick up monday.


----------



## Michael

Do the soak and drain on any of these, if only to remove the perlite, wetting agents, and polymer coated fertilizer. Perlite will float and drive you crazy. The fertilizers need to be removed or diluted. And since we don't know what the wetting agent is, better to avoid putting it in the tank.

I would choose the first option, fewer artificial additives. Since it is a cactus soil, expect to lose half the volume when the perlite floats out.


----------



## mistergreen

I would choose a rich bag of topsoil for like $4. It's usually dark with organics vs the sandy less organic topsoil.
If you have these soils already, I'd go with the Catus soil.


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## PlentyCoup

Michael said:


> Do the soak and drain on any of these, if only to remove the perlite, wetting agents, and polymer coated fertilizer. Perlite will float and drive you crazy. The fertilizers need to be removed or diluted. And since we don't know what the wetting agent is, better to avoid putting it in the tank.
> 
> I would choose the first option, fewer artificial additives. Since it is a cactus soil, expect to lose half the volume when the perlite floats out.


Thanks for the conformation i started a soak and drain of the Epsoma cacti mix last night it looked like my best best and i knew i didnt want to deal with the peaelite.
I have used that brand for years and it always preforms well. 
I dont have any STS on hand but i think i might have a bag of aquatic pond soil in the shed thet might have simular properties. 
Its either check that see if thats a viable option, mix the soil with sand (sand is already a soil component so kind of moot point) or just use the stright soil.


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## PlentyCoup

mistergreen said:


> I would choose a rich bag of topsoil for like $4. It's usually dark with organics vs the sandy less organic topsoil.
> If you have these soils already, I'd go with the Catus soil.


Yes those are the soils i have on hand...
Just compared the two bags of epsoma cacti soil and they must have changed the formula a bit one bag has a lesser organic content.








This is the other bag i have 35-45% on this bag.
This bag is from 2019

And this is the bag from my previous post.








40-50% on this bag and this bag is from 2018.


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## PlentyCoup

.One of thd bags has Yucca Extract listed as a ingrediant so i looked it up. Appearently Yucca Extract is a natural form of "wetting agent" also called a "surfactant". Appearently this natural "wetting agent" helps nutrients and water better penetrate the root zone. It suppousdly has natural hormones and stimulants that tell plants to uptake nutrients..... it also prevents water from beading on leaves if used in a foliaer spray.


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## PlentyCoup

Went out to the shed and managed to uncover the bad of pond planting media. Its gotta be at least 10 years old hopefully that doesnt matter because i think it will work.


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## Michael

This is a low fired clay product that should work very well.


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## PlentyCoup

Michael said:


> This is a low fired clay product that should work very well.


That was my thought as well until i went to rinse it off because it was very very dusty.
My concern now is that it smells strange cant really describe it.
It was stored in the shed with other dirts and lawn chemicals is there a danger that it could have absorbed chemicals from nearby bags even though they were all tied/sealed shut?
I should probably let it soak as well or try to find a new bag? Its been so long since i last used it i cant remember if the smell was always there.

Just asked the rest of the household and it has a smell that can basically be described as "chemical" so that makes me nervous as hell and i think i am just going to see if i can find a new bag somewhere tomorrow, because i dont believe even soaking it would make it safe?


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## mistergreen

If you can’t find this pond soil, which I can’t any more, you can find safe-t-sorb at the local ACE hardware or Menards. There’s another brand of baked clay I’m forgetting.


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## PlentyCoup

mistergreen said:


> If you can’t find this pond soil, which I can’t any more, you can find safe-t-sorb at the local ACE hardware or Menards. There’s another brand of baked clay I’m forgetting.


Yah i am just going to bite the bullet and go to my local TSC and a bag of STS for $7. Hopefully its not a bag that came from a problematic batch. 
Amazon still carries that brand of aquatic planting media $27 for 10lbs and 30 something for 20lbs.


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