# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Need a little help with my 20gal. *updated 12/29/05*



## pnKroK (Jan 4, 2006)

Ok kids...

Another post about setting up a new tank!
Are you bored/annoyed yet?

Well, I hope I can grab some people's attention and get some help along the way.

I've been doing the aquarium thing for about 4 years now and I've done quite a bit of changing around and upgrading and whatnot...a typical aquarium obsession.

I have 2 Cichlid tanks and one 33gal marine/reef tank.

Anyways...
I have my 20gal tank that I was planning on shutting down due to the fact that I'd like to downsize on the amount of tanks I have. But, I have decided to try the planted tank thing.

Of course if I am successful with this 20gal experiment I'll most-likely upgrade to something bigger.

Ok, with all that out of the way.

Here's my plan.

- 20gal tank
- planning on getting a 24" 65watt PC light fixture (enough watts/gal?)
- not sure on substrate. I've been reading a bit and most people seem to like the Eco-complete. So I'll probably go with just that. Can i go with just that or would I benefit from doing a gravel/eco-complete type mix?
- 100Watt heater
- Penguin Mini HOB filter. I've read that HOB filters make too much water surface agitation, but I can keep the water level up and I'm not buying a canister for a 20gal tank.
- Possibly a Co2 unit (store bought).

What else?
I'd like to have a beginner type set-up. I'll try to start out with easy plants and then move my way up. I will be having fish in the tank too...but not too many.

Thats it for now I guess.

I guess my main concern ATM is my substrate, so if you have any suggestions, that would be great.

Thanks,

-rob C


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

eco complete alone will be fine. i wouldn't want to mix it with anything. i run eco in 2 of my 10 gallon tanks, and they are fine even when i forget to dose them for a few days.


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## KRiley (Jun 30, 2005)

Hey,

I definately agree with Russ on the substrate. I run eco complete in both my 50 gallon tanks, and my 20 and i love it. What design 20 gallon will you be using? Long or High? One 65 watt power compact should be good. That will give you just over 3 watts per gallon. You will want to do some kind of CO2 for that tank especially with your lighting. Have you figured out which plants you want to use yet? A HOB should be fine for your tank, although an canister is better. You can pick up a cheap canister on Ebay if you want to. For plant ideas you can try http://www.aquabotanic.com/abstore/index.html

Good luck and welcome to this awesome side of the hobby!


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## pnKroK (Jan 4, 2006)

hey there,

thanks for the replies. I'm just getting my new 48gal tank ready for some of my frontosa and julidichromis and then i'll be able to get started on my planted 20gal.

I think i'll go with the eco-complete substrate, c02 and my hob filter.

As far as lighting goes, I'm pretty set on that 65watt lamp. Unless I'm going to need more for the plants i want to get.

As far as plants go...I'm not really too sure.

I do know what sort of layout/design i'd like to achieve. If words could describe...
I'd like to have the whole "floor" covered with a ground cover. I'd like a grassy type look, not the little clover looking type ground cover. I've read the clover looking type one needs ALOT of light to really flourish (what plant doesn't?). Regadless, if a grassy type ground cover is a bit easier/less light demanding, I'd like to go with that. I've seen it in a couple of pictures, not sure what the name is...but it looks nice.

Then, I'd like to have a centre-piece of wood. Preferrably starting low in the back corner, and reaching up diagonally along an arc, across the tank. Maybe if I could get a moss or something small growing on the wood, that would be nice. And then I'd just like a few other odd plants scattered along the back of the tank for depth. Possibly one plant with a bit of red/colour to it.

As far as fish go? Either some neon tetras or tiger barbs. Can't really decide what i'd like to get. I would definetly like to have 2 or 3 catfish for the bottom.

I'm not too picky about the fish, mainly because this is my first venture into a planted tank. But, everyone keeps asking me why i dont have any of those neon glow fish (neon tetras), so I might as well shut them up and get some!!

haha

Thanks for the help.

-rob C


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## KRiley (Jun 30, 2005)

Hey,

For a grassy substrate covering plant, i would go with sagattaria subulata 'dwarf' AKA dwarf sag. I love this plant, its VERY easy to grow. I started with like 10 plants a couple of months ago, now i have like 50. It grows fast. You can do some research on the types of moss to use on your driftwood. I would say Taiwan Moss, because it grows in really cool. Be sure when you set up you tank, to get alot of fast growing stem plants regardless if you are going to be planting the tank with some thing else later. You want the fast growing stem plants to be able to suck up all of the excess nutrients, to prevent an algae bloom. I would look into the Estimative Index fertilization, its a great system. Good luck, and be sure to post your plants that you want to use.


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Sounds like you got everything under control. Good luck and hope to see some picture of your set up soon!


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

though i like dwarf sag, i think dwarf hairgrass is another good choice. it is a lot skinnier plant than sag, and i think it might make your tank look bigger if anything. though that is just my openion. as for glosso "the clover plant" it is pretty easy to grow. the aquabotanic store even has some on sale. i know from experience that glosso will grow in a 10 gallon with only 28 watts of light, so it would certainly grow in a 20 gal with 65 watts. i honestly don't want to make you change your mind, but i think you could do somthing like the picture below except with some wood in it. you could even put taiwan moss on the wood.

all you would have to do is use dwarf hairgrass (you could use dwarf sag) in the back with glosso in the front. but like riley said, you will probably want to start the tank out with stem plants and then slowly take them out.

now keep in mind, this is only an 8 gallon, so you will have lots more room to play around with:


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Sounds like you're doing your homework, as others have said. You mentioned a "centered" driftwood piece. 

Check out the Aquascaping forum here on AB - there is an aquascaping primer, in which the recommended placement for focal points is NOT the absolute center, but a "golden ratio". Its explained a lot better in the primer, so check it out. 

I've got hairgrass going in "el natural" tanks, and I find it pretty easy, and not too demanding once established. DO take the time to plant the plantlets individually, whether you end up going with hairgrass or with dwarf sag or dwarf E. tennellus. Its tedious to plant it that way, but well worth it in the long run.

-Jane


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## pnKroK (Jan 4, 2006)

Ok...

So its been a while since my last post. I put things off for a while because life once again has brought me some interesting choices.

I'm living in a basement suite and now my landlord is booting me out. Don't worry, i've been a good boy...they need the space.

So now I have to decide what to do with all my fish and tanks. I've decided to break them all down and save all the equipment for a later day. I need to sell/give away all my fish and start alllllllll over again some other time.
Its heartbreaking but exciting at the same time. I love all my fish (yea...each and everyone of them!







) and I've raised them since they were tiny little dudes, and now they're just starting to colour up (cichlids).

Regardless, more about the tank...who cares about me!!









So...I've got a 90gal tank (cichlid tank), a 48gal tank (cichlid, frontosa tank) and a 33gal tank (marine). I figured since i have my 20gal tank lieing around doing nothing, and I've started getting bitten by the planted tanks bug...I might as well make good use of my 20gal tank.

I broke down and instead of eco-complete I bought some Flora Base. Ok ok...you can yell at me now. It was cheaper and I don't really know why I went with it. Probably just because it was cheaper.
I painted the back of the tank blue (I like painting the back of my tanks) and I filled the tank with already established water and I'm using a HOB filter which is already established. I waited for quite a while because i wasn't sure of what I wanted to do...tear down the tank and give it a go some other time...or get it going now and transfer it to my new residence?? Well, of course I have no patience so I decided to buy some plants and fish today.

I bought some Wallesenaria (sp?)(I know its probably not actually called that, but thats what it said at the LFS) I'm pretty sure its this:
Vallisneria americana 'Mini twister'

I bought 3 bunches of it just as a starter. I figured it'll be a good mid to background type plant.

And then I bought 10 neon tetras. They were cheap and they'll keep the people happy...people ALWAYS ask me "why don't you have neon tetras??" I'm gonna cry next time someone asks me that. I have all these beautiful cichlids...and people wanna see tetras??? go figure??

Regardless.

I have a bit of a lighting quandry tho. I found an old hood of mine. It has a 20 watt power-glo bulb in it. And i'm using my 36 watt PC (10,000K bulb) light fixture. That equals to 56 watts/gal. Thats exactly 2.8 watts/gal.
Both blubs in each fixture are atleast a year old. I've read mixed reports on blubs and when to replace them. Should I replace my blubs? What blubs should I get if I do need to replace?

I know I said I was gonna get a new 65watt light fixture...but I'm kinda rethinking things. I still haven't ruled out the 65watt PC fixture. But if I could save $80,that would be kinda nice.

I guess I should list out my questions:

1) Is this 56watts going to be good enough for my tank? I guess the first response will be "what do you plan to do with this tank?" Well, I'd like to have it quite heavily planted with a variety of plants. Mostly green plants, but I'd like to get some red in there if I can. Thats a pretty broad statement...but that should hopefully get me started. I'd like to have fish and shrimp in my tank.
The reason I bring this up is because the lady at the LFS kinda made me think a bit. She said that if I decide to have a fairly heavily planted tank, I should be careful with the amount of fish I have, and what type of lighting I have. I was looking for a new bulb for my PC fixture and she suggested at 50/50 blub. I'm not really sure about a 50/50 blub, I think I'd rather go with the 6700K blub...right? Also she began to lecture me about the c02 which is release at night. If my tank is fairly heavily planted, there will be a fair amout of c02 released and thats a problem...correct? Could I just rectify that with having an air pump running at night?

Ok...question #1 took a while.

2) I think question #1 was the only big question I had??

I was going thru the LFS and I wasn't too happy with what wood they had and the fish and the plants. I've been doing the cichlid thing for a while now and most fish and tank things I've found through friends and club members. I figure I should be able to source out things from friends, and hopefully the net.

I should really take a pic of my tank and let everyone see what the heck I'm talkin' about all this time. Lemme go borrow my bro's camera and give you all an idea of what I'd like to do.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

-rob C


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

It's difficult to give specific advice unless your goals are stated.







For example, are you intending to make a high tech setup (co2, high light, fertilizers) (allows you to grow any plants) or a low tech setup (no fertilizer dosing, no co2). But here's some info that might help you get a clearer picture on what you might want.









*First off substrate:* I don't think you'll have any problems with Florabase, or any other substrate for that matter. As long as you put some root tabs in the substrate for root feeding plants then you'll be okay. It's a matter of color, and grain size.

*Second, lighting:* 50/50 bulbs stink for planted tanks. You should get between 6700-10000 k range, it's matter of preference of what light you like to see. 6700 more morning daylightish, 10000k brighter white light.

56 watts over a 20 gallon is 2.8 wpg which is good to start out. You might want to start thinking about injecting co2. If you decided to purchase a 65watt fixture you will have 3.25, which will require you to inject co2 to avoid algae, and plant growth deficiencies. Basically with more light, plants need more nutrients CO2 + fertilizers to grow well, if you don't supply that algae will thrive. 2.0wpg low light - co2 + fert optional for lower tech
3.0wpg medium-high light - need co2 + ferts
4.0wpg high light - need co2 + ferts

*Third, CO2 + Oxygen Levels* If you are not injecting co2 then your fish will likely be fine. There should be enough oxygen in the water from the day of plant respiration. If you notice that fish gasping at the surface in the morning you can run the airstone at night without any adverse problems. I noticed that you have a hang on the back filter (HOB) which will create more oxygen exchange. Good for fish, bad for plants b/c it out gases co2 if there's a lot of surface agitation. People like canister filters to minimize this agitation.

I hope that wasn't too much info, just keep your questions coming!









Those neons will look great with some plants in the future! Once you decided what type of high tech, low tech setup you want then I think we can move onto plants.

John N.


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## pnKroK (Jan 4, 2006)

AHHH!!!

Perfect!
Thank you for the reply. I knew I could count on you wonderful people to get me started on the right track.

As far as "tech-ness" goes for this tank.

I'd like to get as tech as possible, without going absolutely crazy NASA.

Which means.

1) I'd like to attain atleast 3 WPG (I guess I'll go pick up that 65watt fixture!).
I could run the 65watt light fixture (6700K bulb) for the morning and late afternoon/evening) and I could kick in my 36 watt fixture (10,000K bulb) for the high afternoon effect?

2) Root tabs??

3) I'm planning to use CO2 for this tank. Could anyone suggest a good store bought CO2 unit for my tank?
I'm totally new to using CO2, so any tips/hints now would be good to read up on.
I'll monitor the fish and if they are not getting enough O2 at night, I'll break out the new air pump and get some bubbles going. About the HOB filter. Its just a Penguin Mini filter (got rid of the bio-wheel) which has sponges in it for filtration. Its rated for a 20gal tank, but I get the feeling that it might not be enough. I have a Penguin 125 HOB filter which is rated for a 30gal tank and I might use that. Do I need alot of filtration for a heavily planted tank? With up to 10 or so fish in the tank? With shrimp?
I keep the water level quite high (I've sealed the top end of the tank with silicone so I don't get water seeping underneath the top plastic rim) and it really doesn't create much water surface turbulence at all. Of course it breaks the water tension, but thats really about all it does. Is this really such a big concern? Will my HOB filter really cancel out the CO2 that harshly?

Thanks for the replies, keep 'em coming. I really appreciate the help.

-rob C


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

High Tech Setup it is then!









*Lighting*
65 watts for your 20 gallon tank is 3.25 wpg. More than enough to grow anything you want at pretty high growth rate. Unlike reef setups, plants don't require the altering lighting effect, so the additional 36 watts in not necessary. If I were you stick to a 65 watts on for 9-10 hrs a day. You'll grow anything you want, and you'll be likely trimming your plants every week or two. If you want even faster growth, I suppose you could add the 36 bulb for the effect, but you might encounter algae issues. Stick with 65 watts, see how you like it before adding more.

*Fertilizing*
Root tabs, are substrate fertilizers that are replaced/added every 6 months. Heavy root feeders do better with a root tab placed in the substrate. However, most plants including root feeders need and thrive with water column fertilizing. The main elements are the Macro elements: Nitrogen (N), Phosphorus (P)Potassium (K), and micro trace elements. The best/cheapest way to do this is to go to gregwatson.com and purchase a 1 lb of each,
_Macros_ 
*(N)*Potassium Nitrate KN03 
*(K)*Potassium Sulphate K2S04
*(P)*Monopotassium Phosphate KH2PO4
_Micro Trace Elements_
Plantex CSM+B

Mix this in solution or better yet dose them dry. This will last you 1+ years for under $25, Compared to purchasing Seachem Flourish line of liquid fertilizers for $100+ for 1 year or less. There are many ways to dose this elements. The widely used one is the Estimative Index (EI). This method involves saturating the water column with nutrients, and performing a weekly 50% water change to reset the tank. You can ask more specific questions later if needed.









*Pressurized CO2 Injection*
For pressurized co2, you need a CO2 cylinder, regulator, fine needle valve, bubble counter, and a reactor/diffusor (method of getting co2 in the water). A pH controller (optional)regulates the pH of the water by shutting off the Co2 regulator preventing pH swings. Injecting Co2 reacts with the water making the water more acidic hence the drop of pH. Some people run timers with their co2 systems to turn off at night with their lights to prevent extreme pH swings, instead of using a controller. Others run co2 24/7 without adverse effects on fish. 
There are many different reactors. Inline reactor with a canister filter, glass diffusors (breaks co2 into micro bubbles), hagen ladder, or running co2 tubing into a Powerhead or filter intake. 
CO2 cylinders can be purchased at beveragefactory.com, or better yet search locally for local welding shops, fire extinquisher supply place for cheaper. When doing it locally, some places swap the cylinders instead of refilling, so that's why its better to find out locally what they do, so you won't end up swaping your new beveragefactory.com cylinder for a used tank. New tanks also must be hydrotested (every 5 years) so another reason to purchase locally instead.

*Products for CO2* 
I'm sure the AB store has lots of these goodies (I purchase two regulators from them, but I use drsfostersmith.com as well. Anyways, you may get Deluxe Fully-Automatic CO2 System that has everything I mentioned above minus the CO2 cylinder - $380
_OR separate items_ - recommended
Milwaukee all in one CO2 regulator - bubblecounter, solenoid, needle valve
or a Azoo RegulatorAzoo Regulator. The Azoo is increasingly popular over the Milwaukee because of needle control issues with the milwaukee.

Check out the AB store, drsfostersmith.com, bigalsonline.com, aquariumplants.com, aquatic-store.com for other Co2 equipment and controllers.

*Filtrationr*
You'll be okay using the HOB. The key is to minimize surface aggitation, and provide enough water movement so that the plants will be able to grab nutrients from the water column. The main purpose of the filter is for flow, to remove dead plant matter, and biological filtration. So if you end up not having a lot of flow, add a small powerhead.

I think I covered most of the important stuff, feel free to ask more regarding specifics or whatever else.

Cheers,

John N.


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## pnKroK (Jan 4, 2006)

Okydoky.

I thought I'd just give an update on my tank. I went a little crazy on plants and aquascaping. I did a little reading on proportions and whatnot, and I tried to follow the general rules of aquascaping as much as I could.

I posted in the plants section a question about my red plants in the middle. All my other plants seem to be doing well execpt for this one. If you have any ideas what it is, and if it truly belongs underwater...let me know.

Thanks,

-rob C


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