# Dosing my tank with elements



## jjjaks (May 13, 2005)

Hi Everyone,

I am pretty new to the planted tank hobby and have a few questions. Right now I have a 29 gallon planted tank with alot of red lugwigia, anubias nana, vilaria (?). I have a 65 watt PC and a DIY co2 tank with a Nutrafin Ladder. I also have a EHEIM 2232 canister filter.

Since, I have gotten the whole setup, the man at the store said it would be fine if I just used Flourish Excel. Is this all I need? I have seen so many other Seachem products such as regular Flourish, Iron, Nitrogen, etc....

What do I need? Please any help would be very appreciated? Should I even use the Seachem line or is there a cheaper alternative that I can buy more easily than Seachem? 

Thanks alot for answering all the problems. Helps so much!!!

Thank YOU EVERYONE


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## phanmc (Jun 21, 2004)

Flourish Excel is a carbon supplement often used as an alternative to CO2. Since you're using the Nutrafin CO2 system, Excel isn't necessary but may come in handy should you find you want a little more CO2 than the system can provide.

You should consider getting Seachem's Flourish (not Excel) to cover your micro nutrients. Flourish usually has enough iron to cover your needs so the Seachem Iron is usually unnecessary. Then you'll want to cover the macro nutrients (nitrogen, phosphate, potassium). Depending on your fish load and plant mass, you may not need to dose additional nitrogen or phosphate (they get generated by the fish and decaying matter) but you will need to dose potassium. It's a good idea to have the other macros on hand though.

So for optimal growth get Seachem's Flourish, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium and you should be golden.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I agreewith the above. Excel is not enough. You'll need the items described above. NPK and micro elements.

Gregwatson.com offers cheap alternatives to the seachem line. Please refer here for more information and for one way to use fertilizers. Note you'll probably only need to dose at lower schedule or less frequenty with the linked method due to medium light and DIY CO2. The main point of the link is to show you what you need to buy and how to potentiall use it.

-John N.


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

I use Flourish Excel and it is awesome. It really helps the plants with the carbon, and gets rid of algae naturally. It has helped my tank tremendously! I also have Flourite so I don't use Flourish because it will cause a ton of algae, the plants have plenty of nutrients. If you have just plain gravel substrate I recommend you use Flourish Excel, and plant tabs. I have found that Flourish and Flourish Iron can cause a ton of algae if not used right. If your CO2 and light are not high, and you put just a little too much Flourish, then you will get a lot of algae.

Moral to the story: Stick with the DIY CO2, Use Flourish Excel, and use plant tabs, you cant go wrong.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Let's end this fable quickly: excess nutrients do not cause algae. Adding adequate amounts or even more than adequate amounts of NPK, traces, Ca, Mg, and carbon will not cause algae. Algae will start in response to an unbalance, such as very high light, with inadequate fertilizing, or a CO2 level that isn't steady day to day, or something causing an ammonia spike, such as a dead fish, plant tabs getting to the surface of the substrate, dead leaves rotting, etc. By far the best way to have a relatively algae free tank, when you have over 2 watts per gallon, is to supply an adequate amount of all of the necessary fertilizers, nitrates, phosphates, potassium, trace elements, calcium and magnesium if the water is very soft, and CO2 using pressurized CO2 supply. Plus, doing weekly or near weekly big water changes. There are other ways to do it too, Excel being one of them, and plant tabs being one of them, but those other ways are not better ways.


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

hoppycalif said:


> Let's end this fable quickly: excess nutrients do not cause algae. Adding adequate amounts or even more than adequate amounts of NPK, traces, Ca, Mg, and carbon will not cause algae. Algae will start in response to an unbalance, such as very high light, with inadequate fertilizing, or a CO2 level that isn't steady day to day, or something causing an ammonia spike, such as a dead fish, plant tabs getting to the surface of the substrate, dead leaves rotting, etc. By far the best way to have a relatively algae free tank, when you have over 2 watts per gallon, is to supply an adequate amount of all of the necessary fertilizers, nitrates, phosphates, potassium, trace elements, calcium and magnesium if the water is very soft, and CO2 using pressurized CO2 supply. Plus, doing weekly or near weekly big water changes. There are other ways to do it too, Excel being one of them, and plant tabs being one of them, but those other ways are not better ways.


Excess nutrients don't cause algae? Thats a pretty big fable. If excess nutrients dont cause algae, then how would a plant tab getting to the substrate surface cause it? The biggest reason for planting heavily at the start is so that the plants win over the algae in the fight for nutrients, but if you add more nutrients than the plants can consume, then you are feeding the algae. Moral to the story is... try your best to not over-fertilize, and judging the "adequate" amount of nutrients to have is very hard, that is why I recommend plant tabs, because the roots only have access to them. Algae only thrives when there is excess nutrients in the water column, even with very little light.


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## jjjaks (May 13, 2005)

Hey thanks for all the replies,

Now should I just stick to using plants tabs or should I start dosing with flourish and potassium? Which is easier and Cheapest? Also, which is more stable/safer? 

I am starting to think that it is alot more likely that I will get an algae breakout if I start dosing with all the different ferts like potasium, and flourish. Does anyone think thats true or am i just stupid?

Thanks for the help!!! What should I do: stick to excel and plant tabs or go with the fertilizers?


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Use Excel, DIY CO2 and all the fertilzers from Gregwatson for water column fertilization. This is the cheapest and most beneficial combination. Root tabs are beneficial if you have heavy root feeders like crypts, and swords. But I think it sounds like you have a lot of stem plants that can draw nutrients from the water column.

-John N.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Wood said:


> Excess nutrients don't cause algae? Thats a pretty big fable. If excess nutrients dont cause algae, then how would a plant tab getting to the substrate surface cause it? The biggest reason for planting heavily at the start is so that the plants win over the algae in the fight for nutrients, but if you add more nutrients than the plants can consume, then you are feeding the algae. Moral to the story is... try your best to not over-fertilize, and judging the "adequate" amount of nutrients to have is very hard, that is why I recommend plant tabs, because the roots only have access to them. Algae only thrives when there is excess nutrients in the water column, even with very little light.


Excess nutrients don't cause algae. Correct. Plant tabs, because they are supposed to remain under the substrate and out of the water column, often will have urea or other ammonium sources in them. Plants love ammonium and roots can use it very well, but in the water column for the brief time it is there before the plants all grab it, it triggers algae spores to start their growth cycle. If you have algae growing already, the fertilizers you add do feed the algae as well as the plants. But, if you don't, the algae does not bloom in response to the availability of a good supply of NPK and carbon. This has been demonstrated by many, starting with Tom Barr, but including all of us who use the EI method of fertilizing. Root tabs are a good method to use to fertilize plants, I don't disagree with that, but they are not an easy method, nor a better method than water column fertilizing. And, high nutrient levels in the water will not start an algae bloom unless one of those nutrients is ammonium.
Edit: I left out one thing: the reason for planting heavily from the start is not to out compete the algae, probably impossible to do, but to have enough growing plants that any ammonia spikes will be consumed by the plants so rapidly the algae spores won't even notice them. Remember, at start up, with no nitrifying bacteria colonies growing, nothing is there to convert the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate except the plants. And, if the tank is heavily planted there really isn't a start up period since the ammonium gets consumed before it needs to be converted, but in a fish only tank, the ammonium builds up and is toxic. A lightly planted tank fits in between those extremes.


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## jjjaks (May 13, 2005)

Thanks alot John! I went on Gregwatsons website and I couldnt find any fertilizer exclusively for water column fertilization. Should I buy the PMDD Pre-Mix? Plantex? Can you help me out to figure what fertillizer would be best for me? Sorry about all the work everyone. A complete newb here.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I guess you didn't read Post #3 carefully. 

The following is from the Estimative Index Guide link I provided in that post to show you what you need to buy and how to dose it.

*Where to buy fertilizers?*
Greg Watson can provide you with the necessary chemicals for dry and liquid dosing of the above. For micro - trace elements, Plantex CSM+B, Seachem Flourish, and Tropica Master Grow (TMG) are equivalent to each other. Drsfostersmith and bigalsonline for the Seachem and TMG brands.

One Pound of each of Greg Watson's Chemicals will last at least 1 year:

Plantex CSM+B
Potassium Nitrate KN03
Monopotassium Phosphate KH2P04
Potassium Sulphate K2S04 _(optional)_​
-John N.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Wood said:


> Excess nutrients don't cause algae? Thats a pretty big fable. If excess nutrients dont cause algae, then how would a plant tab getting to the substrate surface cause it? The biggest reason for planting heavily at the start is so that the plants win over the algae in the fight for nutrients, but if you add more nutrients than the plants can consume, then you are feeding the algae. Moral to the story is... try your best to not over-fertilize, and judging the "adequate" amount of nutrients to have is very hard, that is why I recommend plant tabs, because the roots only have access to them. Algae only thrives when there is excess nutrients in the water column, even with very little light.


Well.... 

I started to write a long post here but it's easier to just direct you to Hoppy's reply!


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## Wood (Jul 27, 2006)

I am not disagreeing that you guys are right, but excess nutrients in the water column will definitely benefit the algae growth. In this case jjjaks is obviously completely new to dosing fertilizers (forum: new to aquarium plants) and I feel that inundating him with all of this detailed information may cause a problem. I offered a simple solution for him to slowly learn about aquarium plants, once he become familiar then he can get more sophisticated. If I would have attempted detailed dosing when I first started it would have been a disaster.

Just trying to keeps things simple for the beginner, if he doesn't properly follow dosing than he will undoubtedly get a lot of algae.


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## star rider (Feb 27, 2006)

I have been reading this post with interest.

I am a newbie to planted aquariums so if things are kept in laymans terms it is easier to understand.

I speak for myself, but all the mention of greg watson , nutrients, dosing, macro nutrients, micro nutrients, CO2 , Light ( a whole new ball of wax) 
can be confusing.



I understand what wood is saying ..I also understand what others are saying. it all makes some sense...LOL

what i hope to get is a better understanding of the situation. ansd set up.

I am currently contemplating using the vho system I ha ve in my 75 for the marine tank we are going to set up and going to another light system for my planted 75.


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## phanmc (Jun 21, 2004)

Keeping it simple was the reason why I didn't mention dry ferts from Greg Watson, but I think it's important for beginners to understand the basics to plant growth. Telling them to use CO2, Excel (which may be redundant), and root tabs or flourite (which only covers iron and some traces) isn't educating them and may put them into a comfort zone where they may not be interested in learning more.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

phanmc said:


> Keeping it simple was the reason why I didn't mention dry ferts from Greg Watson, but I think it's important for beginners to understand the basics to plant growth. Telling them to use CO2, Excel (which may be redundant), and root tabs or flourite (which only covers iron and some traces) isn't educating them and may put them into a comfort zone where they may not be interested in learning more.


I agree 100%. Once you accept that growing plants, whether in the garden or in the aquarium, requires much the same elements, things get a lot simpler. Look at most fertilizer bags in the hardware store and you notice that they give the amount of NPK in the fertilizer. That's because all plants need those three things. All plants also need CO2, but garden plants can get it from the air. Only aquatic plants need a different source, which can be gaseous CO2 (best) or a chemical compound that becomes CO2 (Excel). All that's left as a requirement, nutrient wise, is trace elements, which are generally present in natural soils, but not in aquarium substrates, so that too must be provided.

With that basic knowledge you can go on to decide if you want to fertilize you plants only thru the roots or thru the leaves or both. Simplest is thru the leaves - just dump a very small amount of the NPK and traces into the tank every couple of days - no sweat. So, I strongly believe that is the best way to start growing aquatic plants, and the EI method has worked for an awful lot of people, so why not start out with it. You can always switch to a different method later.


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## Tom Higgs (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm relatively new to this (well a few months now), with a biochem degree so maybe I'm biased. Learning to grow plants IS somewhat technical. In this day and age of "immediate gratification", many are looking for a simple "how to" rather than learn "why do I need to". NOT to say that is the case with anyone here, but I see this thought process more and more in everyday life. A basic understanding of the chemistry involved is required. My recommendation is to read the Barr report (its pretty technical, but is worthwile). Using pressurized CO2 and EI method of ferts is definately the way to go. It is simple and my plants are going absolutely nuts. I also find reading through all of the posts, and then slowly digesting all of the information takes time, but provides the solid foundation for success.


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## jjjaks (May 13, 2005)

ok Hi everybody once again......

I have been doing some research and reading and have decided to use the EI method approach. So far after talking to some people they recomend all i really need to use is Potassium Nitrate and Mono Potassium Phosphate for my macro nutrients. Then, I am going to dose with some regular flourish for my Micro. Hopefully this sounds good <crossing my fingers>....... Any helpful suggestions? Does this sound about right?

Can anyone tell me the difference of fertilizing my tank and not fertilizing my tank. Is it a big difference?

THANKS ALOT EVERYONE


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## Tom Higgs (Mar 2, 2006)

that method has worked for me. Good luck


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

With the EI method for your 29 gallon with 65 watts over it, I would dose according to the EI schedule for the 10-20 gallons to start, or instead of 3x a week for the 20-30 gal, dose 2x instead. Light and CO2 drive photosythesis and plant growth. You don't have a ton of light on your tank, but just about enough. So you won't need as much ferts to one who has 110 watts over a 29 gallon.

Fertilizing your tank will yield positive results in terms of plant growth. Good regular fertilizing, light and good levels of CO2 will increase growth, and reduce plant stunting and deficiencies. 

Not fertilizing your tank with fertilizers, light and CO2 will ocassionally have the opposite effect, and you'll see plants slowly dying or becoming yellow and/or pinholes on leaves. 

-John N.


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