# CaribSea Eco-Complete. Perfect alternative for Dolomite?



## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

So I'm planning on setting up a brand new El Natural tank! This time it will be a 20 gallon long for blue velvet shrimp and snails. 

I learned from my mistakes from last time, and this time I dried and sifted the soil (removing the large chunks of peat moss and wood chips), got some clay measured out (about 1 lbs, right?), and also have some pool filtration sand to cap it. I heard about mineralizing the soil for macro elements (calcium, magnesium, potassium, phosphates, etc.) so while I was searching for the perfect source I came across this substrate. 

CaribSea Eco-Complete or Floramax Black. They say that it provides all the necessary elements (except nitrogen) and also raises the pH so I'm assuming it provides bicarbonates. Could I use this as a good replacement for shells and dolomite? If so, should I go with the Eco-Complete or Floramax? I'm planning on mixing it with the soil and clay then capping it all with the pool sand. If that's not the best way then how should I do it? 

I set my aquarium up before I learned about this awesome method of aquarium keeping, so I have it in a room that only has a North facing window which has a broken blind that I can't open. So to cover for my mistakes I decided to get some good lighting and got a used secondhand Finnex Planted+ 24/7 (not SE), which is still probably able to give enough light for medium light plants. I know that substrate is key, so I didn't care to get the best of the best lighting which is like an arm and a leg with my low salary. I'm planning on growing some Japanese clovers (Hydrocotyle Tripartita "Japan"), regular baby tears (Hemianthus Micranthemoides), regular hairgrass (Eleocharis Parvula), Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo' and Staurogyne Repens. All fairly moderate carpeting plants. Do you think my lighting is enough? I've been having success with the Japanese clovers and baby tears already with only moderate lighting, but haven't ever tried the other three. From what I've been reading up on them they sound like the perfect plants to start advancing my level as an aquascaper.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A 20 gallon long tank is about 12-13 inches high. Put 2 inches of substrate in it, and any light sitting right on top of the tank will be about 10 inches from the substrate. This means that almost any aquarium light you put on it will give you high light. A Finnex Planted Plus 24/7 is likely to give you high light unless it is suspended about 10-15 inches above the top of the tank. This means you need to use pressurized CO2 with this much light, or you will have problems with algae, especially BBA.

Eco Complete is a virtually inert substrate. It is not a source of NPK macro nutrients or trace elements. It is a natural material, so its properties can vary, and some batches do cause the KH to increase, but not all batches. It has been found to be a pretty good substrate by itself. Adding a little bit to mineralized topsoil is unlikely to be of any benefit.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Agree with Hoppy, I don't think the EcoComplete will give any advantage if added to mineralized topsoil in a Walstad tank. It won't hurt, but why spend the money?

On the subject of light, I use a Finnex Stingray over my 20 long Walstad tank, and it gives just the right amount of light for my _Cryptocoryne_ collection and Monte Carlo foreground. This is a less powerful fixture than the Planted Plus I use over deeper tanks.


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> A 20 gallon long tank is about 12-13 inches high. Put 2 inches of substrate in it, and any light sitting right on top of the tank will be about 10 inches from the substrate. This means that almost any aquarium light you put on it will give you high light. A Finnex Planted Plus 24/7 is likely to give you high light unless it is suspended about 10-15 inches above the top of the tank. This means you need to use pressurized CO2 with this much light, or you will have problems with algae, especially BBA.
> 
> Eco Complete is a virtually inert substrate. It is not a source of NPK macro nutrients or trace elements. It is a natural material, so its properties can vary, and some batches do cause the KH to increase, but not all batches. It has been found to be a pretty good substrate by itself. Adding a little bit to mineralized topsoil is unlikely to be of any benefit.


Would I never need any fertilizers with just soil? And do I have to add dolomite? I have some crushed seashells but that's about it. What if I used Seachem Flourite instead?



Michael said:


> Agree with Hoppy, I don't think the EcoComplete will give any advantage if added to mineralized topsoil in a Walstad tank. It won't hurt, but why spend the money?
> 
> On the subject of light, I use a Finnex Stingray over my 20 long Walstad tank, and it gives just the right amount of light for my _Cryptocoryne_ collection and Monte Carlo foreground. This is a less powerful fixture than the Planted Plus I use over deeper tanks.


So my lighting will be enough. I'm glad to hear.

I was wondering about the eco and Floramax because it says that it lasts for very long time. I also heard that soil substrates will deplete its nutrients within 5 years or so.

Could I use Seachem Flourite Sand to cap the soil and not add any potash and dolomite? It wouldn't hurt, right? I just love the look and color of it (Flourite Sand, not Flourite Black Sand).

I just rinsed my soil and added the clay. Waiting for it to dry in the process.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

> Would I never need any fertilizers with just soil? And do I have to add dolomite? I have some crushed seashells but that's about it. What if I used Seachem Flourite instead?


If you're running high light, you'll need CO2. If you're running CO2 and high light, you'll need ferts. Even with soil.



> I was wondering about the eco and Floramax because it says that it lasts for very long time. I also heard that soil substrates will deplete its nutrients within 5 years or so.


In a rough sense, non-soil commercial substrates tend to be of limited value. The main problem is they tend to be created from natural minerals (ie. soils/clays/rock) using some form of high heat treatment (artificial (eg. cured clay) or natural (eg. volcanic soil)). While heat treatment creates a substrate that is less prone to muck up our water, it also greatly diminished the cation/anion exchange capacity (CEC and AEC respectively) of the substrate. In other words, it shifts towards becoming "inert".

The main advantage of shells and dolomite are that they're carbonate based. Carbonate acts as a pH buffer. Dolomite is usually available as a fine powder, so it's more reactive (higher surface area). The benefit of a pH buffer in our substrate is it counteracts the acidifying effects of humic acid accumulation which result from organic decomposition. A highly acidic substrate is more prone to anaerobic conditions which is where we start seeing real problems for our plants and fish.

On its own though, humic acid is important for healthy substrate and decompositional processes. Plants are also very good at 'taking care of' the substrate to make sure it suits their needs (provided they're healthy and well-established).

So personally... I recommend capping with a commercial substrate, just because I believe it's better to have more CEC/AEC in your cap, and because my personal experience has led me to believe this works better.

On the other hand, I'm not a strong proponent of mineralization. I believe it would benefit soils with high organic content (ie. Micrale Gro), but I've personally found it to be at best unnecessary, and at worst a headache with most soils I personally use.

But if you're going to do it, use shell/dolomite... Saves your money, and performs its purpose better than commercial substrate. Personally I cap with larger-diameter commercial substrates because they're easier to sift out when I tear down a tank, and that's a lot of money to just throw away.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Since this is in the El Natural forum, I assume that Paradise fish is not going to use CO2 and high light. The Finnex Planted Plus over a 20 long may push light levels into the medium high range, so I would be prepared to shade the tank somehow (screening, diffuser, floating plants) or raise the fixture higher than the normal mounting legs.

Low light soil substrate tanks are regularly fertilized--with fish food. Over time certain deficiencies may develop, which can be easily corrected with the right fertilizer. My oldest tank has been set up for 6 years with no change in substrate. Occasionally I need to dose with a little potasium, but that is the only fertilization it needs.

If you like the looks of a certain commercial substrate, use it as a cap. But don't expect it to take the place of soil or any of its components, including dolomite or oyster shell. I think the marketing hype of the commercial substrates is causing you to make this more complicated than it needs to be.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Want a good substrate?: Aquasoil
Want a good DIY substrate?: dirt with sand cap. 
Afterwards choose plants that fit your lighting, Co2, and fert dosages and regimes/settings. 
That's how I view this whole thread in a few words. *in basics*


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Don't try to eliminate the need to fertilize the plants. It is pointless.

Probably the easiest job involved with keeping a planted aquarium is fertilizing. Buy some KNO3, some KH2PO4, and some trace element mix. Then read http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html and follow the dosing tables there. Every day, when you feed the fish, dump in the right amount of chemicals per the tables. That adds about 30 seconds to your job!

The benefit of using a substrate that contains a lot of the nutrients the plants need is that you will then be feeding the plants both by way of their roots and by way of their leaves. You will have covered all of the bases - all of your plants will be able to choose where they obtain nutrients.

Any nutrient rich substrate will have a limited life as a source of nutrients. Probably the best substrate available is ADA Aquasoil Amazonia, and even that has about a one year life, as far as nutrients go. Soil probably has a longer life, but some of the nutrients in soil won't last much more than a year - nitrate is probably what will be depleted the soonest.

Most of us don't mind the limited life of our substrate - this is a hobby, setting up a planted tank is an enjoyable part of that hobby, so we tend to want to teardown what we have and start over about every year or so anyway. If we do that with Aquasoil it is expensive. If we use dirt instead, it is a nuisance perhaps, but it isn't at all expensive.

People who set up "natural" tanks have a goal of making the tank as self sufficient as they can. So they don't use high light, they don't fertilize, and they are unlikely to want to restart the tank every year. You get the privilege of deciding what you want and doing it that way - it is a hobby, after all.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

hoppycalif said:


> Don't try to eliminate the need to fertilize the plants. It is pointless. Any nutrient rich substrate will have a limited life as a source of nutrients.


The substrate is constantly replenished by the fishfood/feces input from fish. In Ch. V (Sources of Plant Nutrients, pp. 77-89) of my book _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, I show that any ordinary fishfood contains all the nutrients that plants need. And I show--using one of my own aquariums as an example--that fishfood, water changes, and soil provide enough of each nutrient to sustain plant growth. Nutrients C,N,P,K are the most likely to be limiting nutrients, but one can simply feed the fish more food to up the supply of these nutrients.

Using fishfood as a source of nutrients results in fat, healthy fish and no need to add chemicals. The conversion of fishfood to plant nutrients is a slow, measured process. Whatever the fish don't eat goes to the plants. Snails help in the recycling process. It is a beautiful and natural system.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> And I show--using one of my own aquariums as an example--that fishfood, water changes, and soil provide enough of each nutrient to sustain plant growth. Nutrients C,N,P,K are the most likely to be limiting nutrients, but one can simply feed the fish more food to up the supply of these nutrients.


couple things here I spotted;
"that fishfood, water changes, and soil provide enough of each nutrient to sustain plant growth. "
this is true, but it provides Just Enough for plants to live and grow. Its the bare minimum method. if you want Good to Really Good plant growth then you need to add additional nutrients somehow, adding nitrogen from a bottle isn't "adding chemicals" its adding pure nitrogen. Which is an organic material found on this earth. Using the method you state, you do not get plants true potential colorations either, root growth, leaf growth, stem growth, etc. Its just like feeding someone one time a day, or even 1 time every other day.

"Nutrients C,N,P,K are the most likely to be limiting nutrients, but one can simply feed the fish more food to up the supply of these nutrients"
This also is something that I would like to comment on, if you simply overdose on food, however much that amount may be and what kind does so matter, then you create fungus on leftover food, leading to general bad water quality in the "long run" depending on your maintenance regime.

I also have a tank myself that I haven't done a water change on in 1 year so far (rounded up), it has some crypts in it and some anubias, low lights, inert substrate, and they have "survived" with about 1" of plant growth every 2 months. Nothing is added to the tank, its fishless as well.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

In my 6 year old tank that is fertilized with fish food and a little potassium every few months, the plants grow fast enough that I need to trim every month and give clippings away. This is plenty of growth for me.


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