# Possible defficiency



## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

Hey guys, a while ago I posted a thread in here about what I thought might be Ca-defficiency. No many agreed with me, telling me to make tests on the water etcetera, now I have ruled out NO3 an PO4 defficiency, since I've been dosing 1 ppm phosphates and 10ppm nitrates in an aquarium with quite a heavy fishload and well, the nutrients aren't being used up, so I guess that's good. However, I only have any real oxygen production from the plants when I change the water, and then perhaps 2 or 3 days after that, after that period, oxygen bubbles counted on the plants equals 0. I allso dose some micros, which doesn't really seem to be the problem either.


The growth of my H. polysperma is strangely distorted, the leaves tend to grow in curves out of the stem, rather then straight out, often having "bends" on them, allso, the look "curly". You must forgive my english vocabulary when it comes to describing things .... 

Anyways, seing as the plants produce a lot of oxygen, not only a day after water change, but two or three days, I don't think it's a CO2 defficiency, allthough, I have no means to prove it. My thesis is that it's something in the tapwater that runs out after 2-3 days, that I'm not supplying with chemicals after that.

Tor ule out a Ca-defficiency, the easiest way for me seems to be to dose some Ca, and see what happens, what would you guys recommend as a source?

My GH levels are low to start with from the tap, at around 3 if I remember correctly.

Oh, I allso noticed today that I have some nitrites in the water, not much though, can't give any numbers since I have misplaced the key to the test ... Slightly pink when it should have been clear, I remember it's not much, but not how much ... Could that possibly have anything to do with the problem? I know I didn't have this problem before, but the deficiency, or whatever it is, was there anyways.

Thanks, hoping to be helped  This is a great forum, and I often come to read, even though I don't post often. But today I've had enough with those distorted polyspermas ......


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Svante said:


> ...the nutrients aren't being used up, so I guess that's good. However, I only have any real oxygen production from the plants when I change the water, and then perhaps 2 or 3 days after that, after that period, oxygen bubbles counted on the plants equals 0. I allso dose some micros, which doesn't really seem to be the problem either.


This leads me to believe CO2 is your main problem. You should have similar pearling in your tank all the time, not just the day of wter change and 2-3 days after. It may be a bit more intense the day of a water change but should still be there by the time you are due your nest water change. If pearling falls off a day or two after a water change, bump the CO2 up a bit more. With good CO2 the NO3 and PO4 will be used.

You can still try adding some Calcium Chloride if you really think that is the problem but I think given the info you provided, you are low on CO2.


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## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

Well, I beg to differ  Because I turned the CO2 off a while ago, because I don't have time to monitor as much in the summer, and kept it off for 2 months, and during that period, pearling didn't really happen much at all, not even at waterchanges, and the defficiency was not expressed either, furthermore, only plants in the light get this symptom, and only on my fast growing polysperma. Crypts are doing nicely. Perhaps it can still be CO2 that is too low? Anyways, I didn't get an answer of what chemical to use to rule out Ca-defficiency. Which I much would appreciate


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

MatPat said:


> You can still try adding some Calcium Chloride if you really think that is the problem but I think given the info you provided, you are low on CO2.


I did suggest in my first post you try some calcium chloride to rule out the Ca deficiency


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'd suggest trying a little CaCl2 and some MgSO4. If you are adding enough micros, the most likely nutrients that you'd be lacking with GH 3 water would be these. A good source of both would be Seachem's Equilibrium. Can you get this where you are? If not, find some CaCl2 and some MgSO4 - it amounts to the same thing. I'd add enough to get the GH up to 5 or 6 degrees.


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## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

Oh, sorry MatPat ...  I'll try boosting my GH value then. I don't think I've ever seen a seachem product in my life, must be something typically american 

Could someone please give me a link to, or explain to me, in which amounts to add CaCl and MgSO4, to raise GH in a good way? I'm not sure how to calculate really, since I don't have the denisty of either substance, or any clear Idea on how much to add for each GH degree. If I remember correctly 18 ppm of either substance is 1 degree ... am I right?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Svante said:


> Could someone please give me a link to, or explain to me, in which amounts to add CaCl and MgSO4, to raise GH in a good way? I'm not sure how to calculate really, since I don't have the denisty of either substance, or any clear Idea on how much to add for each GH degree. If I remember correctly 18 ppm of either substance is 1 degree ... am I right?


Approximately 18ppm (17.86ppm) makes up one degree of hardness.

You can use the Fertilator on this site (located in the orangish colored navigation bar at the top of the page) to figure out how many ppm of CaCl and MgSO4 to add to your tank to raise your GH levels. You can also look at the Perpetual Preservation System specifically the information on Water Hardness: Magnesium and Calcium, to give you ore information on dosing Ca and Mg.


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## BSS (May 2, 2006)

guaiac_boy said:


> If you are adding enough micros...


Based on my experience with distorted, twisted new growth on A. reineckii, I'm betting on a micro/trace deficiency. I believe that deformed new growth is most frequently attributable to lack of Ca uptake, and that Ca uptake can be blocked when there is no B (Boron) in the tank.

So, I suggest adding/upping your trace (CSM+B, TMG, Flourish) dosing.

Anyone else with another theory he can pursue ?

Please do tell when you find the answer  !
Brian.


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## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

Ok, so, first thin I will do now is:

Try to build up the micros sufficiently, seeing as some of the Lemna minor leaves that are floating are yellow, which I hadn't noticed before, micros might very well be the source of trouble, as L. minor goes white very fast if there isn't enough Fe in the water column .... Might be something else, but worth a shot anyways.

If that doesn't work, I'll boost GH.

If that doesn't work, I'll try boosting my system with more CO2.

I'll report later when/if I fix the problem.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Keep at it and you'll figure it out eventually. Yes, sorry, Seachem is an American company, although a rather large one by aquarium standards. I'm not sure if they export much or not.


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## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

I did some research on my tapwater, and after an hour or so of searching the net, I found a document containing very accurate information about my tapwater, and the potassium levels are at 2.4 ppm, perhaps that ca be the cause of trouble?

Ca is at 25 ppm so I guess Ca is not the purpetrator, it's been ruled out, at least there is enough Ca in the water ...

Perhaps too low K levels can in some way block other nutrients for the plant?

I allso increased the CO2 levels in the tank slightly, by adding a reactor to my DIY set-up, rather then just letting it run through the inlet of the filter.

When I checked the symptoms of K defficiency on the net I can see K is a real problem in my tank, I didn't know the holes in my Crypts were caused by K defficiency, I'va allways hade holes in them ... but then again, I've allways used water with 2.4ppm K ...

Oh, and the added amounts of micros has not made any difference as of yet. Might be a little early to tell though.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Give the micros a couple of weeks to work before making a decision on the results...K could be an issue for you. Are you dosing KN03 or some other form of nitrates? By dosing nitrates to 10ppm with KNO3 in my 75g tank, I am also adding 4ppm of K. My water supply has 2.4ppm of K in it and I don't see any K deficiency in my "High Tech" tanks. 

I do see a K deficiency in my low tech tanks that get minimal water changes and minimal dosing. My "low tech" tanks probably need more K than what they are getting and they probably need more macros also 

Try adding extra K for the next week or so and keep us informed of your progress.


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Working on the same problem here!*

My ludwigia was distorted the way you describe and side root diseappear. I bump up nutrients NO3, PO4, and PMDD trace. Ludwigia coming back and side roots. I really believeve the Trace are responsable for the come back.

For the pearling after water change if we look at the phosyntesis formula:
6 CO2 + 6 H2O + soleil --> C6H12O6 + 6 O2

I doubt a water change bring more CO2 but maybe more oxygen???


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## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

So, now some more time has passed, and well, I think I see a slight change in the curling of the leaves now, dosing nearly 0.8ppm Fe (with other micros as well) could that be dangerous in some way to dose that much? I've allso ordered some non aqeous fertilizers for my lotus and crypts that I'll put in at their roots, trying out the new tropica series of ferts.

Glouglou - Yeah, water changes bring a lot of CO2 into the tank, dunno why really, but that's the way it is.

MatPat - I normally dose some K in the form av KH2PO4 and KNO3. Adding 10ppm of NO3 and about 2ppm PO4 I think


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## Svante (Feb 8, 2004)

So, some more time has passed, the curling of the leafs that I thought had decreaed must have been wishfull thinking  Because it's about the same.

Tomorrow I'm getting my new CO2 reactor that's supposed to dissolve 100% of the CO2 added to the tank ... which will be a huge improvement on the CO2 levels. Further, I've been researching alternate reasons for Ca defficiency-like symptoms, and I've found that higher Mg levels can cause Ca-defficiency, Dog some countign on +/-5% readings made by my water supplier, I've found that Ca is at 25 ppm, and Mg is at 7 ppm, is that too high Mg? I know some people say a 5:1 Ca:Mg realtionship is ideal, could such a small change in that realtionship cause my problems?

Defficiency could allso be a result of my Micro's has gone bad for some reason, I'm using a quite unstable form of micro's called NutriSi, that's quite commonly used here in sweden, but allso, many people have trouble with it in harder water with high pH (which I don't), and allso it deteriorates in sunlight. I'm changing my micros again to another not so well known sollution called Micro+... Allso quite commonly used in Sweden, which is supposed to be more stable, but a little bit more expensive (about 5 us dollars for 2,5 l ready to dose sollution adding 0.1 ppm Fe if used 10ml/100l water)

Thanks for all the help, just trying to get a better understanding of the planted aquarium


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*More Iron and trace...*

An update on my Ludwigia...

Last time I check my ferts was:

Fe around .5mg/l
No3 around 6/7mg/l
PO4 around 3 to 5 mg/l (oups) I surdose a little bit, trying to reduce GSA

Still a little bit of GSA around, everything is growing good, and, miracle, my Ludwigia restart to grow side roots and look a lot better, growing 2 to 3 inches every week.

Still not sure exactly what help. Now I'm going up only with Nitrate and trace.

One thing is sure the Health of my Ludwigia became better at the same time those side root show up.

If somebody know what fert is the inducer in the apparition of these roots.
This will be the answer to my Ludwigia problems.

Other things, I remark more pearling


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