# Difference?: ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia & ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia II



## Leonard

What is the difference between ADA Aquasoil Amazonia and ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia II ?


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## Gomer

Supposedly, II won't cloud the water as the normal amazonia has been known to. I got some recently.It looks like normal aquasoil, however, when I added water to my tank, some of broke down (just a small amount) and I saw what looked like brick/clay erosion bits. Not sure if that makes any sense.


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## Leonard

Doesn't anyone else have anything to say?
Isn't it something about that II don't let ammonium (?) out in the aquarium water? With the ordinary one you have to change a lot of water during some week berore the substrate don't affect the water...


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## zuker

Check out this link; it will take you to a description of Amazonia II that might help. Let me know if this will suffice. Cheers.

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=12_21&products_id=266


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## yoink

It is slightly lighter in color than the regular amazonia, and has a ton of the little bits of orange in it. I didn't have a problem with cloudy water using either. They both leach a little tannins into the water, maybe a little less with the amazonia II. I've never tested a tank with AS for ammonia, I just do extra water changes for the first few weeks and wait to put fish into the tank if possible.


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## Leonard

So Amazonia II does also affect the water as much as Amazonia do?
also (in II): -less cloudiness
-lower pH and KH more
-other kind of black colour


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## jsenske

You will still have the ammonia spike and need to change water when the tank is first set up. Yes, pH and hardness are affected like with regular Amazonia.


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## Left C

yoink said:


> It is slightly lighter in color than the regular amazonia, and has a ton of the little bits of orange in it....


Are these orange bits something like Flourite?


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## Leonard

Ok, I have ordered "ordinary" Amazonia now =) I belive it will be good enough! 

Should I have plants in the tank while changing water in the beginning?


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## jazzlvr123

you should stuff the tank full of plants right from the get go to avoid algae growth


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## yoink

Left C said:


> Are these orange bits something like Flourite?


They are a little lighter colored than flourite. I think they are either broken pieces or some that didn't get fired as long. Maybe both. I know soilmaster has small pieces that are a red/orange color as a result of the clay not getting fired as long.


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## Leonard

Ok! Then I'll put filter, plants and everything (ferts too?) directly when I start the tank.

I am also going to start a "low-tech" for shrimps with Aqua Soil Amazonia, plants will be mosses and ferns, and som easy fastgrowing plants. Is it very important to add plants at the start or could I fill the aquarium with water and AquaSoil only and change water every day in a week first?


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## Paul Higashikawa

For first week you want to be religious about water change everyday because of chemical spikes. You will also notice from Amano's and other artists that they always try to fill up the whole tank with plants in the beginning instead of slowly adding one or two plants here and there every week. This is because it goes along with their layout designs and also make things easier to monitor.


In terms of Amazonia, the first month is the most crucial month because in this time frame you are doing alot of things......

Just to give you an example(of course this regiment is not the absolute)
-water change everyday and adding plants and setting up the tank in first week
-water change every other day and perhaps adding some algae eaters second week
-water change twice or once a week and adding more algae eaters and some fish
***notice also you can add fertilizers even during the first week***


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## Homer_Simpson

Paul Higashikawa said:


> For first week you want to be religious about water change everyday because of chemical spikes. You will also notice from Amano's and other artists that they always try to fill up the whole tank with plants in the beginning instead of slowly adding one or two plants here and there every week. This is because it goes along with their layout designs and also make things easier to monitor.
> 
> In terms of Amazonia, the first month is the most crucial month because in this time frame you are doing alot of things......
> 
> Just to give you an example(of course this regiment is not the absolute)
> -water change everyday and adding plants and setting up the tank in first week
> -water change every other day and perhaps adding some algae eaters second week
> -water change twice or once a week and adding more algae eaters and some fish
> ***notice also you can add fertilizers even during the first week***


Would this also apply for ADA Amazonian 2? I will be setting up a tank with the #2 and just want to make sure things are done right. Thanks.


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## Paul Higashikawa

That is a good question. I personally have not tried using II completely, although a friend of mine did use II powder as a finish layer on top of my 60-P when he came over to scape it. I bought a box of II not too long ago but haven't had any chance to use them since all my tanks are still kindda new. My friends who tried did say there is no noticeable diff except for the tannin-like brown color that doesn't seem to be as obvious in II. In terms of chemical spikes, I am not too sure.....need to ask them again 

Guys in NASH, can y'all chime in on this if you have used II already?


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## Leonard

Paul Higashikawa said:


> For first week you want to be religious about water change everyday because of chemical spikes. You will also notice from Amano's and other artists that they always try to fill up the whole tank with plants in the beginning instead of slowly adding one or two plants here and there every week. This is because it goes along with their layout designs and also make things easier to monitor.
> 
> In terms of Amazonia, the first month is the most crucial month because in this time frame you are doing alot of things......
> 
> Just to give you an example(of course this regiment is not the absolute)
> -water change everyday and adding plants and setting up the tank in first week
> -water change every other day and perhaps adding some algae eaters second week
> -water change twice or once a week and adding more algae eaters and some fish
> ***notice also you can add fertilizers even during the first week***


Then I'll set up as much as possible at the start (except animals)


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## Tetras

So - if I'm starting from stratch for a new 90gal - and going all AS II, nothing else - would two of the 9L bags be sufficient?


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## Paul Higashikawa

There is a rule in ADA site as well as ADG that tells you approximately how many bags you would need for the size of tanks you would use. But in all honesty, this also varies with what layout you have in mind. But 2 bags of AS in a 90-gal would be stretching it, IMO. I have a 90-cm(~40-gal) and I used 3 and half bags of AS and it still didn't look that much.


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## Heinzanova

Having used both, I like the Amazonia Original better than II. Plants seem to do much better. No real notice of less clouding...


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## Leonard

I've got my ADA stuffs home some days ago. I bought Amazonia original, PowerSand Special, Tourmaline BC, Clear Super and Bacter 100. Also some ADA ferts. I've never tried this before, it'll be very fun!


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## Left C

I guess that you know that 9 liters = 549.213697 cubic inches.

Each inch of Aqua Soil's depth is 864 cubic inches in a 48" x 18" foot print.

So for a 3" substrate depth, you will need 2592 cubic inches.

This is 4.72 bags of Amazonia II Aqua Soil or roughly 4 x 9L bags plus 2 x 3L bags.

I'd probably get either 4 or 5 of the 9L bags.


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## gotcheaprice

I think 90 gals are even bigger foot prints right?

If so, I think maybe about 7-9 bags would be right, xD

Oh, getting 2 bags of AS for my 60P. ADG suggests one, but i really want a slope and also want to save extra to grow emersed stuff and maybe another tank.


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## howie

I've used aquasoil amazonia original on 3 tanks. I am getting aquasoil amazonia 2 today and will be setting up two 10 gallons for CRS. I will let you know my experiences with it.


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## Paul Higashikawa

Leonard said:


> I've got my ADA stuffs home some days ago. I bought Amazonia original, PowerSand Special, Tourmaline BC, Clear Super and Bacter 100. Also some ADA ferts. I've never tried this before, it'll be very fun!


Leonard, did you order your ADA from Europe? Just wondering because last time I was in sverige I didn't see any ADA products.


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## gotcheaprice

I'm gonna be ordering AS II. It's darker and also isn't as bad initially for new tanks right?


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## Leonard

Paul Higashikawa said:


> Leonard, did you order your ADA from Europe? Just wondering because last time I was in sverige I didn't see any ADA products.


It's not sold in Sweden. I bought from Germany: http://www.naturaquarien.de/shop/docs/start.htm
It's not ordinary in Sweden, only around 6 persons (including me) who has it in here 

I have started my shrimp tank with AS now and I'm changing water every second day right now =) Have had it for little more than 1 week today.


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## Homer_Simpson

gotcheaprice said:


> I'm gonna be ordering AS II. It's darker and also isn't as bad initially for new tanks right?


AS II will still leach ammonia into your water column so you have to do frequent water changes for a while to clear the ammonia. AS II is also not supposed to cloud the water or harden the water like AS.

Some say that they tried both original and AS II and found no difference between the two as far as plant growth, others say that they found AS original to give better plant growth than the AS II. And still others point out that unlike the AS original, the AS II is less nutrient rich owing to the fact that ADA reduced the total black soil organic component in order to address some of the water hardening and clouding issues associated with the AS original. Many critics say that this is not a good thing as this means that the AS II will run out of nutrients sooner than the original. Personally, I don't see why this would be a big issue if you dose water column ferts. I am using EI with and AS II experimental tank and have yet to see problems, although it is too soon. I also have some AS original on stand by for testing to compare differences, but this is going to have to wait as I don't currently have any more room to set up any more tanks. Howie stated that he has used AS original and will be trying AS II, so it will be interesting to see what he finds.


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## gotcheaprice

Ohh, yeah, me too. If AS is better, I don't mind the clouding issues, and would actually like the hardening since I think my water is pretty soft.

I did email Jeff though and he said that AS II should be fine as he gets great growth. I don't think it's much of a difference either... People do well with SMS right?


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## MiSo

i just put ada amazonia II into my tank today.
instructions on the bag says do not rinse.

BIG mistake following those directions.
cloudiness galore. the tank looks like chocolate milk. you can't see 3 inches into the tank. i took out my vortex filter and let it run for a bit. two hours later it still isn't clear. if i try to move the substrate to flatten it out or whatever, it clouds up again.
i should've rinsed.........


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## gotcheaprice

O_O
I thought AS II was supposed to not cloud like AS did.
Well, most people don't rinse anyways and let the dust settle.


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## bencozzy

ok just did a tank yesterday with AS 2 and cloudiness isnt nearly that bad just a slight milky look, did you fill it up slowly and have a plate or empty bag over the substrate as to not stir it up?

fill tank slightly with water plant and flatten substrate then finish filling to help reduce cloudiness.


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## Homer_Simpson

I guess everybody's experience is different. Below is a picture, which I posted already but am posting again to show that there was virtually no cloudiness the first day of setting up this 15 gallon high tank with AS II. I was even able to clearly see the reflection of some of the plants inside the tank glass after I filled it full of water, something that would be difficult with a cloudy tank. I used a $1 strainer from the dollar shop and used Seachem Purigen in my Aquaclear HOB 150 filter. Perhaps, this is why I did not experience cloudiness. Despite this, I still continued with frequent weekly water changes to get rid of any excess ammonia in the tank. Lol, the last thing I needed was a major algae bloom due to high ammonia levels after I spent a fortune on the AS II.


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## Leonard

I had no problem with cloudiness when I started this first tank.
Here is it about 1 day after I filled up the tank:








I used a plate, when filling up water. If I wouldn't the whole AS should have blown up into the tank... It is a really light substrate which almost floats up by itself!

I have about 50ppm nitrate in my water now =) Have to change even more water probobly. I have already changed about 50% every day for 1 week, but I belive I have to do one more...


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## mats808

I was reading this thread and wanted to say that I do not believe that amazonia or amazonia II hardens the water. According to everything I've read it will soften the water (reduce hardness). I'm not sure how much it will actually soften the water but that is what ADA claims. It also seems more logical that ADA would want a water softening soil vs one that hardens the water.

I also noticed that everyone is saying that amazonia and amazonia II leach ammonia into the water. Does it really? Is anyone sure of this? 

aaron


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## Ebichua

The ammonia bleeding out of the substrate ONLY occurs when you...

A: First start out with the substrate. The substrate will leak out ammonia but that's actually a good thing, because this allows you to cycle the tank WITHOUT the need of an ammonia source. The soil carries it already. It took about 3 weeks for me to cycle 2 bags and a half of Amazonia II.

And...

B: If you stir up the soil too much POST cycling, you can cause an ammonia spike. But of course, this happens to all substrates, amazonia aquasoil or not, you will get some kind of spike if you stir your substrate too much. Whether it be regular gravel, EC, flourite and what not.


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## mats808

So are you saying that if I put a little aquasoil into a clean glass of water ammonia will leach out? Is this written anywhere by ADA......on their website, pamphlets, etc? Did anyone hear Mr. Amano mention this in one of his presentations? I would think that if a company put out a gravel that leached ammonia they would definitely mention that somewhere in their literature. The bag might even say, "warning, this product leaches ammonia." How much ammonia are we talking about? If you filled a 55 gallon tank with 3 inches of gravel would there be 1 ppm, 10 ppm, 100 ppm of ammonia?


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## Tex Gal

mats808 said:


> So are you saying that if I put a little aquasoil into a clean glass of water ammonia will leach out? Is this written anywhere by ADA......on their website, pamphlets, etc? Did anyone hear Mr. Amano mention this in one of his presentations? I would think that if a company put out a gravel that leached ammonia they would definitely mention that somewhere in their literature. The bag might even say, "warning, this product leaches ammonia." How much ammonia are we talking about? If you filled a 55 gallon tank with 3 inches of gravel would there be 1 ppm, 10 ppm, 100 ppm of ammonia?


What's the argument here? Anyone that has used this stuff has VERY high ammonia issues for several weeks. I have used it in 3 different tanks. All had added mulm, seasoned filters, I even wrapped the hardscape that wouldn't fit in buckets of water to keep the nutrifying bacteria alive. . I used 50% of the old water. My tank was packed with plants, mostly fast growing stem plants! Sometimes the ammonia spikes even last up to 6 weeks. My ammonia readings were darker than the colors on my test kit paper.

Most of us are not scientists. We don't do double blind studies. We post here our experiences. There are threads and threads of empirical evidence on this forum and others. It sounds like you are arguing this point... If you want scientific evidence feel free to go at it!


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## Ebichua

There is no warning label, but I think it is mentioned somewhere, I just can't pin-point it out. These products are made in Japan, not in the U.S. so with that in mind, you must accept the fact that their laws about this stuff may vary from our own. 

But in any case, when I filled up my 40G breeder with 3 in in the front and 4 in the back (Sloped), my ammonia shot to about 2+ I think. It was in the dark green zone on my API test kit. It was enough ammonia for me to cycle without adding anything to the tank. All I did was throw in a used filter, planted the plants I bought for it and waited for 3 weeks. Now it's doing fantastic and I haven't had any problems with it. 
Although, during my 2nd week (ammonia was gone but there was still some nitrite), I threw in a few amano shrimp. The water was too rich in nutrients, I guess, and began growing some hair/fuzz algae on my rocks. My amanos quickly ate that all up within the week and had no shrimp losses.


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## mats808

Thanks Ebichua. That's very interesting.

Tex Gal I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that Im trying to argue with you or anyone for that matter. I just found it very strange that anyone would put out a product that leaches any considerable amount of ammonia. 

Do you guys think that rinsing the substrate before use will alleviate this problem (I know the "instuctions" say not to rinse). The reason I ask this is that it seems that everyone is saying that it only occurs at the initial setup and then eventually the ammonia problem goes away. I guess this is my point: do you think that the problem goes away because the ammonia is being broken down once the tank gets established or does the aquasoil stop leaching the ammonia?

In other words, if you were to take gravel from a 4 month old tank and put it into a brand new tank with no fish do you guys think that there would still be an ammonia spike? If the answer is no then thoroughly rinsing it may help considerably. If you think yes then this is a major flaw of the product. That would mean that basically you should keep very few fish if any at all in the aquarium. The reason I say this is that with the fish and the substrate consistently adding ammonia to the system nitrates would build up pretty quickly in an established tank. Basically you could be overstocking without really overstocking.

I am using amazonia II to grow some Cryptocoryne cordata 'Rosanervig' and some other rare plants. The reason I am concerned and decided to ask the question is that some of my plants are in pots with my wild pair of Betta macrostoma. For those who are unfamiliar with this particular fish, wild stock is very expensive ($200-300/pair) and they are known to be quite sensitive to "dirty water" (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates). Hopefully in my case it doesn't matter too much because the amount of amazonia II in the few pots I have is very little compared to a 3-4 inch layer covering the entire bottom.

anyways, sorry for the long message, and sorry again if I offended anyone,
aaron


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## Ebichua

mats808 said:


> Thanks Ebichua. That's very interesting.
> 
> Tex Gal I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that Im trying to argue with you or anyone for that matter. I just found it very strange that anyone would put out a product that leaches any considerable amount of ammonia.
> 
> Do you guys think that rinsing the substrate before use will alleviate this problem (I know the "instuctions" say not to rinse). The reason I ask this is that it seems that everyone is saying that it only occurs at the initial setup and then eventually the ammonia problem goes away. I guess this is my point: do you think that the problem goes away because the ammonia is being broken down once the tank gets established or does the aquasoil stop leaching the ammonia?


*Rinsing the substrate does nothing. The ammonia literally leaks out of the soil so doing a few rinses don't do anything because the leak will still continue. The soil NEEDS to be cycled in order for it to work. I have read that you need to do 90-100% water changes for the first few days when using amazonia aquasoil. Personally, I didn't follow it. A. Because it was too much work, B. It wasted a TON of water and C. It ruined my aquascape too much (which in turn, makes more work). So no, rinsing the substrate won't do a thing to its ammonia leakage.*



> In other words, if you were to take gravel from a 4 month old tank and put it into a brand new tank with no fish do you guys think that there would still be an ammonia spike? If the answer is no then thoroughly rinsing it may help considerably. If you think yes then this is a major flaw of the product. That would mean that basically you should keep very few fish if any at all in the aquarium. The reason I say this is that with the fish and the substrate consistently adding ammonia to the system nitrates would build up pretty quickly in an established tank. Basically you could be overstocking without really overstocking.


*Once the leak is over, aquasoil will no longer throw out ammonia. I know this because I just recently bought an established tank (8 months running). The tank included Amazonia soil and whatever plants it came in with. When I first transferred it into my house, the water the seller could not remove from the tank did turn brown and dirty. When I got home, I tried to drain the rest of the dirty water and filled it up again. I tested water and I did get some signs of ammonia. That occured day 1. On day 2, when the water finally cleared up, I tested the water again. Ammonia was at 0. Thus, concluding that the ammonia sprung up only because debris and junk was flying around. (The tank I bought was previously a CRS tank, if that helps any)*


> I am using amazonia II to grow some Cryptocoryne cordata 'Rosanervig' and some other rare plants. The reason I am concerned and decided to ask the question is that some of my plants are in pots with my wild pair of Betta macrostoma. For those who are unfamiliar with this particular fish, wild stock is very expensive ($200-300/pair) and they are known to be quite sensitive to "dirty water" (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates). Hopefully in my case it doesn't matter too much because the amount of amazonia II in the few pots I have is very little compared to a 3-4 inch layer covering the entire bottom.
> 
> anyways, sorry for the long message, and sorry again if I offended anyone,
> aaron


*As long as you don't turn the water into mud water, which is by slushing the pots and tank water around, then you're completely safe. Aquasoil Amazonia (I and II) is by far, my favorite substrate. Works fantastic with plants, lowers my PH and gives off a very natural look to it. Aquasoil is now the only substrate I will ever use in my future tank set-ups *


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## mats808

Thanks Ebichua.


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## Tex Gal

Ebichua said:


> As long as you don't turn the water into mud water, which is by slushing the pots and tank water around, then you're completely safe. Aquasoil Amazonia (I and II) is by far, my favorite substrate. Works fantastic with plants, lowers my PH and gives off a very natural look to it. Aquasoil is now the only substrate I will ever use in my future tank set-ups


How would not slushing the pots around make a difference? The ADA AS released the ammonia. Wether it's in pots or out of pots shouldn't make a difference, it seems. While the "slushing" might mix what is being trapped between the soil particles a little faster, I don't understand how it would keep it from releasing the ammonia.

I did do an experiment with ADA AS 2 before I put it in my tank and it took weeks to get the Ammonia down. I put it in tubs first, doing water changes and then into my tank. Moving to the tank from the tubs didn't result in an ammonia spike. The spike had resolved before I moved it.

Sorry if I jumped the gun on you mats808! I can see how you would be concerned with fish that expensive. If I were you I'd just test for Ammonia and take corrective action if any was found, like fast growing stems, water changes, extra dosing of prime, amino carb... etc, unless these are contra-indicated by your fish type.


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## mats808

thanks Texgal


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## lauraleellbp

My understanding from reading Tom Barr's work with ADA AS is that there is a very high organic content to these substrates, and the ammonia is from the decomposition of these into an uncycled water column. Once the tank and substrate has an established N-bacteria colony then the ammonia levels are no longer an issue as they are converted ate the rate of decomposition. Unless, as pointed out, the substrate is signficantly disturbed, which may cause a spike from too much ammonia released into the water column at once.


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## Left C

Gosh ... there has been so many bad things said about Amazonia II the past few months, but not the original Amazonia. I'm not going into any details. A simple search will let you know about this product.


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## mats808

lauraleellbp said:


> My understanding from reading Tom Barr's work with ADA AS is that there is a very high organic content to these substrates, and the ammonia is from the decomposition of these into an uncycled water column. Once the tank and substrate has an established N-bacteria colony then the ammonia levels are no longer an issue as they are converted ate the rate of decomposition. Unless, as pointed out, the substrate is signficantly disturbed, which may cause a spike from too much ammonia released into the water column at once.


Hi lauraleellbp,
According to Ebichua, amazonia II only leaches out ammonia in the intitial stages. If it did so on a long term basis this would be a problem even after a tank is established. True, the ammonia would be broken down into nitrites, then nitrates but this would increase the ammount of water changes you would have to make. I'm sure you know this but too much nitrates are bad for fish, not just ammonia. Ammonia is the enemy, I still believe that no one would make a product that consistently leaches ammonia into the water. If it's just in the beginning, that's not too bad, maybe even a benefit (for cycling purposes), but on a long term basis I think that would be a problem.
aaron


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## lauraleellbp

At the point where all the organics have finished decomposing then the substrate would no longer be of benefit to the plants. How long it would/will take the substrate to reach this point would be entirely variable from tank to tank especially depending on the plantload.

Once the tank and ADA AS has cycled there should be no measurable ammonia left in the water column. I'm hearing reports that this initial cycle can take from a few weeks to a few months to occur. (I havent yet personally started cycling my batch of Amazonia II so I've no basis for comparison.)

However, N-bacteria populations will adjust to the amount of ammonia available to them, so AS continuing to decompse and leech ammonia over the long term is not an issue as long as the levels don't spike suddenly. The AS serves as a continual ammonia source same as do the livestock in the tank. Plants tend to favor ammonia absorbtion to nitrAtes so also are a good buffer to prevent levels from becoming toxic. NitrAte levels becoming toxic also would depend on the plantload. Regular water changes are a part of most hobbyists routine (unless the goal is an NPT) so should keep nitrAtes in check even if the plants alone do not.

It's not uncommon to get an ammonia spike from disturbing any planted tank substrate. Part of why it's generally a good idea to do a large water change after any major rescape.


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## mats808

lauraleellbp,
Like I said, I realize that nitrifying bacteria will first break down ammonia into nitrites then nitrates but I still don't think it's a good idea for a substrate to leach ammonia into the water over the long term. The substrate can continue to leach many things that might be beneficial to plants so it won't be useless just because it doesn't leach ammonia.

We get more than enough ammonia from the fish we keep. In fact there are several products that try to get rid of ammonia, nitrites, and/or nitrates.....this is also one of the reasons we do regular water changes. 

If you kept a planted tank with no fish or shrimp maybe I can see ammonia being beneficial but most people are going to be keeping at least some fish. I can't see why anyone would make a product that consistently leaches ammonia into the water. If this was such a good idea wouldn't everyone be dosing ammonia on a weekly basis. There is Flourish everything, why no "Flourish Ammonia"? In fact if you go to the Seachem website and read about "Flourish Nitrogen" you'll see that they went out of their way not to include ammonia. They use ammonium. Heres a quote, "However, no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish Nitrogen™ is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants."

True there may be some hard core aquatic plant hobbyist that only keep plants and so they don't have enough ammonia for their plants but I think most hobbyist who have a planted tank will definitely be keeping fish. Among those I'll bet that most of them will want enough fish in their tanks to supply more than enough ammonia. I actually worked in a pet shop when I first graduated high school and the one common theme amongst the masses was wanting more fish in their tanks, not less. Companies must appeal to the masses. Why would a company make a product that releases ammonia into the water when most people already have too much fish and therefore too much ammonia to begin with?


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## hoppycalif

A heavily planted tank, that has healthy growing plants in it, will not have ammonia problems either from the fish or, especially, from ADA Aquasoil. The plants will use the slowly released ammonia as fertilizer before it can do any harm. Aquasoil, when first set up in a tank, can release more ammonia than the plants can use, but only for a few weeks at most. This small problem is handled by doing twice a week or so water changes. Aquasoil is widely acknowledged to be the best substrate for growing plants that has ever been sold to the public. I don't know how much better than other substrates it is, but it is enough that everyone using it raves about the improved plant growth. (I haven't yet tried it myself.)

A planted tank, with an adequate number of healthy plants will not have problems at all with excess nitrates unless you just dump big doses of nitrate in the tank, then never change the water. No fertilizing method I have read about would cause you to have enough nitrates to be a problem.

Ammonia, NH3, and ammonium, NH4+ are referred to interchangeably by most of us. Neither is something to add to the tank without knowing what you are doing and being very careful. Ammonia, NH3, is a gas under normal temperature and pressure, so none of us will be adding it to a tank in any case.


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## mats808

Hi Hoppycalif,
I don't know if I gave the wrong impression. I like aquasoil. I use it to grow many plants. My Cryptocoryne cordata 'Rosanervig' really loves it and grows quite well in it. I have no complaints with aquasoil.

All I'm saying is that:

1. I really don't think it would be good for a substrate to leach ammonia on a long term basis.
2. I really don't think that aquasoil does this.

I've already said that I can see how in certain circumstances leaching ammonia could be a 'good' thing. But I think not in most cases and I also think that a good portion of aquasoil sales are to those who definitely don't need anything creating more ammonia than the fish and/or shrimp that they alreading have in their planted tank. 

This is strictly my opinion through experience of having worked in a pet shop and communicating with local hobbyist for the last 20 years or so. Lets take a 20 gallon planted tank. The average person could easily be keeping 30 or so cardinal tetras in there, plus some Otos, maybe some shrimp. Personally I prefer to keep very few fish (1 breeding pair or breeding group/tank) but in my experience many aquarist like to keep as many fish as they can in their aquarium. Now in this example do you think that the aquarium needs any more ammonia at all?

I've grown some of my nicest plants with very little fish in the aquarium. Granted they were low light plants that are easy to grow but they grew "perfect" with no algae at all even on the oldest of leaves. I believe that at least part of the reason was that the entire 50 breeder only had 4 Otocinclus in it, and so there was very llittle ammonia. 

Also, I've looked everywhere and ADA never once mentions that aquasoil leaches ammonia. Don't you agree that this is something that would have come up by now? Why no mention of it?

Now I'm not saying that I know for sure that it doesn't. I'm just saying that in theory I think it would be a mistake if it does. We could always email them and ask.

aaron


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## mats808

also about the ammonia/ammonium thing. I'm not at all saying that anyone should in any way be adding either of these to their aquaria. I only brought this up because people are saying that aquasoil leaches ammonia into the water and that this is a good thing. I would never recommend adding ammonia into your tank....I don't even believe that aquasoil does this.

My point was, whether it's a good idea or not, Seachem clearly thinks that ammonia is bad and so they want everyone to know that their product has no free ammonia and only ammonium. I'm not saying if this is good or bad, or even true. The point was that they went out of their way to let everyone know that their product has no ammonia. Yet people are saying that aquasoil leaches ammonia?


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## hoppycalif

I'm glad you cleared that up - it looked like you were not impressed by aquasoil. I suspect that the reason ADA doesn't talk about ammonia leaching out of aquasoil for the first weeks after it is set up is because they tell you to do lots of water changes during that time. If you do that there is no problem, thus no need to warn anyone. So far no one seems to think their aquasoil continues to leach anything like ammonia once the first few weeks go by. As someone pointed out, any "old" substrate might release some ammonia if it is stirred up when replanting or doing deep cleaning of any kind, so a big water change after doing so is always a good idea.

From what I have observed ADA concentrates on telling people what to do, not on explaining the chemistry behind what they tell them. I have some doubts about a lot of ADA substrate and fertilizing products, but I sure wouldn't dispute that they can set up beautiful tanks using those products.


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## St3v3

In all fairness, the step by step setups in the ADA catalogs specifically mention to not release fauna into the tank for at least a few weeks.


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## mats808

Hi St3v3,
Are you talking about the grayish catalogue entitled "The Style Of ADA"? What page does it say that on? Are you talking about page 30, step 38?
aaron


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## bsmith

mats808 said:


> Hi St3v3,
> Are you talking about the grayish catalogue entitled "The Style Of ADA"? What page does it say that on? Are you talking about page 30, step 38?
> aaron


ADA AS II and ADA AS I release ammonia in the tank for some time after being introduced.

I put a bag in an Eclipse 12 that I keep CRS and RCS in. I was not aware that it leeched ammonia at that time, so I just dug out the old stuff and dropped in the AS. The first week or so were okay, plants looked great, shrimp were happy water was clear. Then during the second week I noticed that my shrimp were acting wierd. I checked my readings and sure enough there was a slight presence of ammonia. I did a large W/C and carried on. Remember at this time I did not know that this product would leech ammonia. A few days later I find a dead CRS in my tank (the water looked nice and clear) and the others looked to me like they were just wondering around aimlessly. I checked again and there was 2ppm of ammonia in my tank!!! I flipped out and changed ~80% of the water and threw as much zeolite (ammona absorbant) as I could in the filter.

Over the next 3 weeks I did water changes EVERY DAY and exhausted a whole .5 l bottle of white diamond ammonia remover, lost 40+ CRS and ~100 RCS.

So I, first hand experienced the release of ammonia in my tank from AS II.

Now I just do as Tex Gal stated earlier, where I "cycle" the AS untill I can no longer detect ammonia in the water.


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## mats808

Hey bsmith782,
Is an "eclipse 12" a 12 gallon tank? If you lost 40 CRS and approx. 100 RCS does that mean they were all in a 12 gallon tank? 

Whether they were or not, there was probably a lot of nitrifying bacteria that you removed when you "dug out the old stuff". I realize that an eclipse has a filter so there was nitrifying bacteria in there but I think that by removing all your old gravel you lost a lot. Plus you may have kicked up a lot of debris into the water column that may have added to the problem. With all those shrimp in there your filter could've simply gotten overloaded resulting in an ammonia spike. 

I'm not so sure that your problem clearly illustrates aquasoil leaching ammonia.


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## bsmith

How many people who have actually used AS need to telll you that it leeches ammonia for you to get it? The removal of the old fake rock substrate im sure removed a little bacteria but all of the mulm water and plants were still left in.

Shrimp DO NOT give off that much N there would be more then enough bacteria in the filter/mulm/plants/water to take care of what was in there.

I do not know how more clear you can illustrate the fact that AS leeches ammonia then having an established tank for 2+ years with no ammonia in it then introducing AS and having a large spihe.



mats808 said:


> Hey bsmith782,
> Is an "eclipse 12" a 12 gallon tank? If you lost 40 CRS and approx. 100 RCS does that mean they were all in a 12 gallon tank?
> 
> Whether they were or not, there was probably a lot of nitrifying bacteria that you removed when you "dug out the old stuff". I realize that an eclipse has a filter so there was nitrifying bacteria in there but I think that by removing all your old gravel you lost a lot. Plus you may have kicked up a lot of debris into the water column that may have added to the problem. With all those shrimp in there your filter could've simply gotten overloaded resulting in an ammonia spike.
> 
> I'm not so sure that your problem clearly illustrates aquasoil leaching ammonia.


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## bsmith

jsenske said:


> You will still have the ammonia spike and need to change water when the tank is first set up. Yes, pH and hardness are affected like with regular Amazonia.


This man is one of the US suppliers of AS it doesnt get any more from the horses mouth than that.


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## mats808

i wasn't saying that it doesn't. I said that your example wasn't really a good one. Bottom line that's a ton of shrimp in a 12 gallon. But this is how the whole nitrifying bacteria thing works. An established tank doesn't have excess bacteria. To simplify things, I'm going to say that it has just enough to deal with the consistent amount of ammonia being produced by your shrimp for example. When you removed all your 'gravel' you removed a considerable amount of nitrifying bacteria. Temporarilly the new, decreased amount of bacteria won't be able to keep up with the same amount of ammonia being produced. 

So really it doesn't matter if shrimp don't produced that much ammonia and all the other stuff you said. However much they produced, when you removed some of the bacteria there no longer was enough to keep up.....there was no longer a balance.

I've actually used amazonia and I am still using it to grow some potted plants in my breeding tanks. 

There's no real argument here. I was just shocked with what everyone was saying initially so I was more just ASKING if this was a guarantee fact or a theory. As the thread went on I even said that it may be beneficial that it leaches ammonia in the initial stages. I just couldn't believe that you would make a product that leaches ammonia on a long term basis or forever in other words.


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## bsmith

140 shrimp in a 12g tank is not that densly populated at all. I guess you dont keep any.

Removing the substrate in the tank and replacing it with any substrate is not enough to create a month long ammonia blast. Maybe a tiny bit was but not the vast majority of it. It was because the AS leeched. 

If you dont like that example how about this one. I put the AS in a cooler ~45g to leech the ammonia out of it. With NOTHING but water and AS in the cooler ammonia concentrations began to rise and after 3 weeks of daily 90% water changes finally came back down to 0.


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## mats808

Yes, that is a much better example. Like I tried to explain it doesn't matter if that wasn't a lot of shrimp for the tank.....you had a bacteria colony that matched the amount of shrimp that you had....when you removed all of the gravel you lost a considerable amount of that bacteria and there was no longer enough to keep up with the same load of ammonia being produced. Earlier in this thread some other people (NOT ME) also mentioned that stirring up the gravel may also cause an ammonia spike. I assume that this happened when you removed your old gravel. 

Anyways, like I said earlier, we already came to the conclusion that aquasoil leaches ammonia during the initial stages before you joined this thread. So far it seems that everyone also kind of agrees that it does not continue to leach ammonia after the intial period which is what my concern was. 

If you read the entire thread you should have noticed that I was merely asking questions becuase the whole ammonia thing seemed illogical. Eventually it seemed like everyone was in agreement that aquasoil only leaches ammonia during the intial stages which I felt could actually be beneficial. At first it seemed like everyone was saying that it would leach the ammonia forever. Once we cleared that up the discussion was pretty much over.

When you entered the thread I was just letting you know that by removing all of your gravel you no longer had enough nitrifying bacteria to keep up with of all of your shrimp. Like i said we already came to the conclusion that it leaches ammonia during the intial stages.

Then you started saying things like, how many people (that have actually used aquasoil) have to tell me this or that, and how much clearer of an example do I need to illustrate the point. And I really just found that funny. First of all it's a point that was already agreed upon. Second, I do use aquasoil, which you should have known if you read the thread. And lastly you really don't understand exactly how the nitrogen cycle works so you can't see why your example wasn't really the best. 

Like I said, I use aquasoil too, but you're the one with the dead shrimp....not me.


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## mats808

bsmith782, 
I wasn't even going to respond to your post because like I mentioned we had already discussed the whole ammonia thing. The only reason that I did was because I didn't want a beginning aquarist to read your post and conclude that the aquasoil leached all of the ammonia that caused your problems. But then you started talking down to me like you wanted an arguement. 

I just didn't want a beginner to think that as long as they use 'normal gravel' (not aquasoil) it is a good idea to do what you did. True, maybe with different types of gravel the problem wouldn't of been as bad. Maybe without a substrate that is also adding to the problem enough new bacteria would've grown in before any real problems occured. However it's still not a very good idea to remove an established gravel bed and assume that no problems like this might occur.

Don't get me wrong. I put fish into brand new tanks all the time and pretty much never have any loses. Often times these are wild fish....some of them are known to be quite delicate species. But I change the water daily or when necesary and monitor them very closely. Having said this, I still don't consider this ideal and wouldn't recommend it to others. 

I just don't think what you did was a really good idea, with aquasoil or any substrate for that matter.


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## bsmith

One of the reasons I posted after 5 pages of other people telling you AS leached ammonia was to give you some of my first had experience with it. Because it seemed to me that you couldnt comprehend why ADA would sell a product that would do that with out stating it. Even though they did and they do.

Another was because I didnt want someone to purchase AS and make the same mistake I did. Put it in the tank (espicially with N sensitive inverts) and have the vast majority perish.

I feel I have made my point. Do not put AS I or II in your tank unless it has been depleted of all Ammonia unless it is void of any fauna..

Also FYI I do understand the Nitrogen Cycle. Because I was ignorant to the fact that AS would leach ammonia in my tank intitialy and caused many of my shrimp to die the first time I used it. That proves I didnt know that about the AS. I could have had 10 established cannister filters/refugiums on that tank and it still would not have been able to cope with the Ammonia OD form the AS.


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## mats808

Hey bsmith782,
I'm not trying to argue with you but in regards to the 10 cannister filter thing. You could have a million cannister filters.....you would still only have the right ammount of nitrifying bacteria for your bio load. Whether they are in 1 cannister filter or split up between 10 still basically the same overall ammount. There would be a balance between the shrimp and the bacteria. Having more filters doesn't give you more bacteria...it just gives you more space for potential bacteria to eventually grow if the bio-load is increased.


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## lauraleellbp

Mat, I strongly encourage you to stir up your AS 6 months after it's finished cycling, and take an ammonia reading the next day.

Make sure to remove all your livestock first.

Then draw your own conclusions about AS leeching ammonia over a long period of time.

Personally, I'm willing to rely on others' experiences with this product to not need to replicate the experiment myself.

The decomposition of organics = ammonia. If you by any chance do NOT get an ammonia spike, then it would be extremely logical to conclude that you have managed to "exhaust" the organic nutrient supply in that batch of AS. 

The only issue is what rate that ammonia is leeched into the water column versus the rate of conversion by N-bacteria and uptake by plants. This rate will be different from tank to tank.


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## mats808

Hi Laura,
Before I start I really want to stress that I am not arguing with you......but can you please clarify a few things for me?

Through reading this thread I was under the impression that people were saying that aquasoil only leached ammonia in the intial stages (1-2 months or so?). I figured that this could make sense since it would allow you to cycle your aquarium before actually adding fish. Now that I've read your post it seems like you are saying that it leaches ammonia forever but that this isn't a problem once your nitrogen cycle is in full swing because it will be converted into nitrites, nitrates and then used by your plants. It also seems like you are saying that in the event that aquasoil does stop leaching ammonia, at that point it has been 'exhausted'. Kind of like you want the ammonia.

I was under the impression that people were saying that after the first month or so it stops leaching ammonia, not that it continues to do so but that the ammonia just gets converted into nitrates and then it is used by the plants.

I know that in an aquarium with vast ammounts of thriving fast growing plants and very few fish there may not be enough ammonia and so I can see where this might be beneficial. But I think that most would agree that the majority of planted aquariums have more than enough fish/shrimps/snails etc. to produce enough ammonia to supply all their plant's needs. In fact there is often too much ammonia and therefore a buildup of nitrates which we remove with our weekly, monthly, etc. water changes. 

That's why I find it so hard to believe that Amano would make a product that permanently leaches ammonia or leaches ammonia for any considerable ammount of time. In the vast majority of cases which is most of Amano's clients there is more than enough ammonia it doesn't make sense to create a product that makes more. If this was such a good idea wouldn't we see other manufacturers creating "liquid ammonia" to fertilize our tanks?


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## lauraleellbp

You are understanding what I am saying correctly.

Ammonia = plant food. ADA's major emphasis is on planted tanks. Fish tend to be secondary. Some ADA tanks are entirely fish-less. ADA AS must be cycled properly in order to be safe for livestock, and if disturbed, may release toxic amounts of ammonia and nitrite into the water column. This is actually true of most substrates, but especially AS.

Given time and stability, N-bacteria populations will regulate themselves according to the amount of ammonia in a tank. Otherwise, our water columns would always yield ammonia readings from the ongoing ammonia being produced by the fish.

Organic decomposition = ammonia = plant food. ADA AS is a great plant substrate b/c it's so high in organic content.

Once decomposition in a soil substrate has stopped then that soil's nutrient content is very depleted (depending on the soil's CEC).

Do you thoroughly understand the nitrogen cycle? N- bacteria convert ammonia into nitrite, and then nitrite into nitrate. Plants are able to use the nitrogen in any and all 3 of these compounds. The first 2 are the most toxic to fish, nitrates are the least toxic. Without any source of nitrogen in the tank, the plants would die. 

In low tech tanks, the ammonia from the fish is often enough to feed the plants, and between the direct removal by plants and conversion by N-bacteria into nitrates, the water column in a healthy tank should always read 0ppm ammonia. In high tech tanks, plant growth will quickly outstrip the amount of fish waste, and therefore nitrogen must be added through ferts. Because of the nitrogen content in ADA AS, plants have yet another source of nitrogen besides what is in the water column.

If you had no desire to keep livestock in a planted tank, then dosing liquid ammonia would be a great idea, as long as you didn't overdo it. Plants actually have to expend more energy to utilize nitrAtes over ammonia.


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## mats808

HI Laura,

Yes, I've always understood the nitrogen cycle. I actually wrote about ammonia being converted into nitrites then nitrates in an earlier post (maybe like page 4 or 5 of this thread).

I also do know that ammonia is the most toxic out of the 3. That's kind of my whole point. In that same post I referred to Seachem's product which doses nitrogen. I made referrence to the fact that on their website they actually go out of their way to let everyone know that their product has no ammonia. That's kind of why I found it interesting that one company (Seachem) purposely tries not to include it and another (ADA) would want it to leach from its aquasoil. 

As far as some ADA tanks being totally fishless, I haven't seen every aquarium that Amano has planted but from memory I can't remember a single one that doesn't have fish or shrimps in it. I've seen a few 'amano style' aquariums planted by hobbyists with no fish or shrimps but none that Amano has produced.


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## lauraleellbp

Check out the AquaJournal link in this thread:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/55126-aquasoil-information.html


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## Homer_Simpson

ADA AS II in a 15 gallon high tank with DIY c02 injection still in testing phases but pretty stable(no algae, kuhli loach and SAE is still alive, plants are doing reasonably well, no major ammonia spikes). Tank was set up around Jan 08.

Although I cannot 100% scientifically confirm why this may be, I suspect the great mass of floating plants(riccia, cardamine, etc.,) combined with 50% weekly water change and minimal feeding may be the difference maker in sucking up any ammonia and preventing major spikes. I do dose phosphate, potassium and trace minerals as per Tom Barr's Estimative Index.

If you plan to try AS I or II, maintain a very high plant density, especially floating plant mass. If you can do this and keep low light plants that will not suffer as much from the light blockage caused by the heavy plant mass, you may be okay. I can only speak from my own testing and experience. I did not post this to start any arguments, or war of words. Take it FWIW.


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