# Lighting and plant options.



## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

I have a 10 US gallon dwarf puffer tank currently stocked with Microsorum pteropus, Cryptocoryne x willisii, Ceratophyllum demersum and Cladophora aegagropila. I'm running two mini compact fluorescents, 10 watts a piece, rated at 6500k.

The rest of the tank is ... ahem, 'planted' with plastic plants. I do not like plastic plants. They are getting plastered by diatoms and are ugly. I want to replace them with real plants.

I am also currently battling blue-green algae. Things are out of whack right now, but fertilizer/bioavailable carbon is on the way to get things back on schedule.

Obviously by my above statement, I want to replace those plastic plants. My dilemma is that I am not sure what exactly I can support. I know lighting is a little weird in 10 gallon tanks, and most of the plants I have taken a liking to have light requirements that start at medium/medium-high. I would like to have some stem plants with small leaves, like Cabomba for example. My current wanted list is this:

Anubias barteri v. nana 'Petite'
Ceratophyllum submersum 
Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'
Limnophila sessiliflora
Ceratopteris thalictroides
Monosolenium tenerum
Vesicularia fasciculata 

Most of these are listed as lower light plants. Limnophila is the only one that I think will fill the tank nicely as a stem plant, and appeals to me aesthetically, but I want more diversity.

My other problem is substrate. I have a strange combination of crushed coral, 4mm gravel and 1cm gravel. The vast majority of the tank's footprint is also taken up by a large rock structure in the middle, and a piece of driftwood on the right. I can post a picture if needed. I had a thought that I could plant my smaller potted plants in a bonsai/cactus dish with Eco-complete or some other suitable substrate and move that around as I please within the tank, but obviously that won't be applicable to the rest of the tank.

Am I limited to lower light plants? What choices do I have with what I've got?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Welcome to APC  

You are correct. Having 2wpg in a 10G tank is not the same as 2wpg in a 20G tank, you will actually have less. You will be able to grow low light plants and few medium light plants. I would stick with plants that don't require more than 2.5wpg. 

I would completly change out your substrate, with a plant substrate like Eco-complete. Or you could use a pool filter sand with laterite as the bottom layer. 

Don't use carbon in a planted tank, it will remove nutrients that your plants need. You need to use Excel for a carbon source if your not injecting CO2. Also dose micro/macro nutrients.

You can initialy get rid of BGA by using E-mycin at full strength for 5 days. But make sure that you get all other things in balance so the algae does not return.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

trenac said:


> You are correct. Having 2wpg in a 10G tank is not the same as 2wpg in a 20G tank, you will actually have less. You will be able to grow low light plants and few medium light plants. I would stick with plants that don't require more than 2.5wpg.


I emailed the manufacturer of my lights to get the lumen rating (All-Glass). Having exact numbers will probably help.



> I would completly change out your substrate, with a plant substrate like Eco-complete. Or you could use a pool filter sand with laterite as the bottom layer.


I have heard sand and Aquaclear filters do not mix, so I will probably try Eco-Complete or one of Seachem's plant substrates. Seachem's Flourite looks nice.

I am concerned that changing out the substrate will knock the tank back into a cycle. Should I be concerned about that?



> Don't use carbon in a planted tank, it will remove nutrients that your plants need. You need to use Excel for a carbon source if your not injecting CO2. Also dose micro/macro nutrients.


I am not, I am using crushed coral (KH stabilizer) and a regular sponge in the Aquaclear.

No CO2. Too complicated at this point, I am just starting out. I should be picking up Excel on Friday, Flourish will come later.



> You can initialy get rid of BGA by using E-mycin at full strength for 5 days. But make sure that you get all other things in balance so the algae does not return.


I'm going to try to get the tank in balance first and see if it doesn't just resolve itself before resorting to medication. Erythromycin can wipe out the biological filter, no?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

GekkoGeck0 said:


> I have heard sand and Aquaclear filters do not mix, so I will probably try Eco-Complete or one of Seachem's plant substrates. Seachem's Flourite looks nice.


Pool sand is heavier than most other sands and stays put. So there should no problem with filter clog. But Flourite is a good choice and makes a nice substrate. Just make sure that you rinse it several time before putting into your tank.



> I am concerned that changing out the substrate will knock the tank back into a cycle. Should I be concerned about that?


No not really. As long as you have an established filter built up with good bacteria. Besides plants are a bio-filter and will soak up any small spikes of ammonia, nitrite & nitrates that you may have. Just make sure that you add more plants to add when you change out the substrate.



> No CO2. Too complicated at this point, I am just starting out. I should be picking up Excel on Friday, Flourish will come later.


If you have under 2wpg all that is needed is Excel for a carbon source. However DIY is not that complicated when you feel comfortable using it.



> I'm going to try to get the tank in balance first and see if it doesn't just resolve itself before resorting to medication. Erythromycin can wipe out the biological filter, no?


That is a good plan... No, E-mycin will not wipe out your bio filter in a planted tank. I've used it with great success 4 times already. I've found that once you have BGA it is difficult to get rid of in the beginning. So using E-mycin gives you a jump start on getting rid of it.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

trenac said:


> Pool sand is heavier than most other sands and stays put. So there should no problem with filter clog. But Flourite is a good choice and makes a nice substrate. Just make sure that you rinse it several time before putting into your tank.


I wanted to try sand or really fine gravel one of these days, but in this case the Flourite looks like a good choice.

What's the deal with Eco-Complete? Is it just as good? I like darker gravels, it tends to bring out the blacks in the dwarf puffers and make the yellows brighter. Could I mix the two together at a later date?

Which is the best choice for a planted tank substrate in general? I seem to remember hearing cons against one of the planted substrates (Flourite, Eco-Complete, laterite) but I can't remember which one it was.



> No not really. As long as you have an established filter built up with good bacteria. Besides plants are a bio-filter and will soak up any small spikes of ammonia, nitrite & nitrates that you may have. Just make sure that you add more plants to add when you change out the substrate.


Don't know if I'll be able to add plants right after changing the substrate. Most of the plants I'd choose are usually gone within the first few days of them showing up at the store.



> That is a good plan... No, E-mycin will not wipe out your bio filter in a planted tank. I've used it with great success 4 times already. I've found that once you have BGA it is difficult to get rid of in the beginning. So using E-mycin gives you a jump start on getting rid of it.


I'll wait, then. It's not growing very fast, after a month of not touching the tank aside from water changes/vacuuming, it only grew in a few spots, and they were small. I am assuming once everything's in balance, considering how slow it is growing now, it should disappear on its own.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

There was some bad batches (milky looking in color) of Eco-complete out for a while. I think that has been resolved now.

Both Eco and Flourite are good substrates. It depends on the color you like best and the work involved. Eco you just open the bag and pour in the contents, no rinsing required. Flourite on the other hand needs to be rinsed several times and still clouds your water for a few days. 

You could mix in Eco later, but it would be easier to do it all at once.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

trenac said:


> Both Eco and Flourite are good substrates. It depends on the color you like best and the work involved. Eco you just open the bag and pour in the contents, no rinsing required. Flourite on the other hand needs to be rinsed several times and still clouds your water for a few days.
> 
> You could mix in Eco later, but it would be easier to do it all at once.


I ended up with Flourite. Boy, is that stuff muddy! I ran out of buckets to put things in (rocks in one bucket, gravel in another, plants in yet another) so I ended up having no choice but to wash the Flourite while still in the bag, in the kitchen sink. 

So it's in the tank now. Not going to have enough to get the ferts I need for a couple of weeks (this stuff ran me $40 for one bag).  Hopefully it'll do well, and it looks really good, too. I'm hoping my Crypt doesn't melt from the change.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Flourite is messy stuff. I found using a colander to rinse it makes the job a lot easier.

$40 for one bag, thats seems over priced!... _Where did you get it?_

Your crypt may melt, they are famous for that.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

trenac said:


> Flourite is messy stuff. I found using a colander to rinse it makes the job a lot easier.


My fiance suggested that. Our colander has rather large holes, though, so I would have lost a fair bit of gravel doing that.

The cloudiness is already clearing. Now it just looks like a bacterial bloom (slightly milky).



> $40 for one bag, thats seems over priced!... _Where did you get it?_


A small LFS, not sure if I'm allowed to name names here. The larger LFS had it cheaper (not much, $31 before tax), but they said they were out, but were getting a new shipment on Friday. Friday is a national holiday here. I have gotten the runaround from them more than once about what's going to be in when, so I got it where I could.

Prices here (I'm in Canada) are unkind, unless you're ordering online. Even then, shipping substrates usually incurs extra shipping costs and kind of kills the point of ordering it online in the first place. I occasionally look at U.S. sites and it's usually much cheaper.



> Your crypt may melt, they are famous for that.


Yeah, I'm just hoping it doesn't. It was growing beautifully before.

Rockwool is a pain to tease from the roots.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

Another concern of mine is that the Flourite is rather deep (3+ inches) because of rocks/driftwood I have in the tank that are below the substrate.

Should I be concerned about aerobic pockets developing? I could poke around every week to stir it up a bit during water changes.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

GekkoGeck0 said:


> Another concern of mine is that the Flourite is rather deep (3+ inches) because of rocks/driftwood I have in the tank that are below the substrate.
> 
> Should I be concerned about aerobic pockets developing? I could poke around every week to stir it up a bit during water changes.


As long as it is not over 4" you should be fine. Adding some MTS will help keep the gravel stirred up.


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## GekkoGeck0 (Nov 3, 2005)

trenac said:


> As long as it is not over 4" you should be fine. Adding some MTS will help keep the gravel stirred up.


MTS and dwarf puffers?

Most of everything I heard makes that combination sound like a distinctly bad idea.

EDIT:

Going over some posts on the DP forum, seems like some have had some success with it. I just remember my puffers definitely crushing pond snails... I'm a little worried that the same will happen with the MTS and start snapping beaks.


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## troy_h (Jul 12, 2005)

I wouldn't suggest turning over the substrate to any great length, you need both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to facilitate the break down of detritus into useable components for the plants and truning the substrate would tend to disrupt that process.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

GekkoGeck0 said:


> MTS and dwarf puffers?
> 
> Most of everything I heard makes that combination sound like a distinctly bad idea.
> 
> ...


I have DP's in with MTS and have had no problems. The DP's seem not to pay any attention to them. This may be because the MTS are mostly nocturnal.


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