# CSM+B replacement



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I've been having trouble with something precipitating out on trace days and so am thinking about switching to a liquid. I thought about Seachem's flourish. Then I realized that they have a Seachem trace as well. Do I need to dose both as a replacement?

Does anyone have a suggestion about a replacement for CSM+B for me?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Flourish is fine and would be all you need.

Have you tried turning off your UV on these days? 

-O


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

No. I can try it. Other's I have spoken to with the same issue don't run a UV. I guess we can see if there is any effect.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

I'd recommend TMG but its gotten so expensive.
so +2 on flourish.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

The only thing else it could be is high phosphate levels during your csm+B dosing.

Causing it to precipitate.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

UV will do nasty things to most ferts. Might as well just add charcoal and call it a day.

I use flourish as well at the rate of about .25-.30ml/L per wk. It smells and looks soy, which confuses me.

And just to because it hasn't been mentioned, a brand used commonly in Europe is Dennerle. Their S7 vitamix would probably be the correct product. I don't know much about the details. It doesn't seem that they post their nutrient levels on their site.

-Philosophos


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Philosophos said:


> Might as well just add charcoal and call it a day.


 Why charcoal?

- Orlando


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Just a comparison. It does a wonderful job of removing nutrients as well.

-Philosophos


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

A lot of people say UV will damage ferts but if its not organic it really cant and even then its not in the light for a long enough length of time. See the link to the thread to Seachem: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/seachem/62573-uv-light-planted-tank.html#post475488

Tex Gal: attached is a spreadsheet I did on Flourish and F. Trace. No need to buy Trace really; unless they drop the price big time.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

What if the UV is on 24/7? 

I would probably guess excessive phosphates would be the issue with Iron precipitate. 
Ive been using csm for a long time and have yet to come across this problem.

I also use this on client tanks with different water parameters.

I would also like to mention, I do like Flourish product. Its easy to use and dose.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Fert bottles are stored in opaque bottles for a reason. Being organic is not a prerequisite to photosensitivity. Iron EDTA would be a wonderful example; it finds a place in both dark room photography and fish tanks.

Most people under-watt their UV sterilizer as well. They prepare it for green water, not larger organisms.

Killing off parasites is more about intensity than dwell time as well. Penetration is everything as far as I understand it.

Either way, running a UV sterilizer 24x7 does no favors to the tank. If there is green water long term, a nutrient is not in balance. If there is disease, then the use should be temporary, and the fish quarantined. 

-Philosophos


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I dont think folks use EDTA Iron in there tanks.

DTPA is what most people use. Unless you use Seachem Iron(Gluconate)


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## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

Going from CSM+B to Flourish seems like such a waste of money. Is there a reason you do not just dry dose the CSM+B right into the tank?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

orlando said:


> I dont think folks use EDTA Iron in there tanks.
> 
> DTPA is what most people use.


Fe(III) EDTA has been used, and I used it in an example because it's used in dark room photography as well. It works just fine if you keep a low pH. I nearly bought some my self a while back, before finding out I could get DPTA.

DPTA and other chelates have photosensitivity issues as well. Chelates of certain types dropping their bonds willingly is an established fact of chelation ion chromatography. Check out page 281 with regards to this. Or page 280 for that matter; they seem to use KNO3 to potentiate the whole thing happening.

-Philosophos


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

rich815 said:


> Going from CSM+B to Flourish seems like such a waste of money.


performance.

I'm not necessarily alone on this, but it still seems not to be popular opinion. which is fine, and CSM does work. on a slower growth aquarium, less light.. etc. CSM is just fine. using it wont kill your plants or make them stunt.

but for performance, commercial mixes stand out. I gave CSM a chance, switched back and forth, tried comparisons between the two and reached the conclusion, TMG and flourish are just better and in that order. but more expensive.. why TMG had to jump so high in price is beyond me.  but I'm not ready to join brilliants club yet.

for macros and GH, DIY are more than acceptable. But I cant get color and leaf shape performance out of CSM that matches TMG or flourish. Its the difference between plants being healthy, and plants meeting their potential. I've tried, and I'm all about shaving pennies off the hobby. you should see my ghetto setups. I try to spend the $$ where its needed and skimp elsewhere.

now if someone could deliver a recipe for a DIY trace mix that can do better than CSM, can compete with TMG.. I'd be happy to run it through its paces. Barr was supposed to be cooking one up, but I dont know what came of that. anyone remember?


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## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

ashappard said:


> performance.
> 
> I'm not necessarily alone on this, but it still seems not to be popular opinion. which is fine, and CSM does work. on a slower growth aquarium, less light.. etc. CSM is just fine. using it wont kill your plants or make them stunt.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt to refute your results, and I do see others saying they too see better results from Flourish or TMG vs. CSM+B, but there are a lot who say they see no difference whatsoever. I have used all three and I fall into the "see no difference whatsoever" category myself....


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## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

ashappard said:


> Barr was supposed to be cooking one up, but I dont know what came of that. anyone remember?


I was at a SFBAAPS picnic/BBQ with Tom a few weekends back and asked him. Seems he's back to no real ETA at this time.....I sensed it was on track a few months ago and almost seemed imminent. This time, though he was a bit coy and seemed not wanting to be forthcoming with a lot of detail, I sensed things may have derailed slightly and it may be on hold until further notice. Just my sense.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

rich815 said:


> I was at a SFBAAPS picnic/BBQ with Tom a few weekends back and asked him. Seems he's back to no real ETA at this time.....I sensed it was on track a few months ago and almost seemed imminent. This time, though he was a bit coy and seemed not wanting to be forthcoming with a lot of detail, I sensed things may have derailed slightly and it may be on hold until further notice. Just my sense.


hmm. yeah at one point I had the impression he was about to turn it loose.
either way I'm sitting on a TMG stockpile for now with flourish waiting in the wings.
and CSM+b in a pinch.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

It's just easier to run the UV 24/7. I feel like I never have to worry about fish TB or anything like that. I have a 36watt so I think it's large enough to kill bacteria. I have plants growing like crazy so if it's doing anything to the ferts it's not hurting anything UNLESS this is my precipitating problem. My water out of the tap is high in phosphates. Maybe I should cut back on them. It's so easy to follow EI. Then I get a problem now and then and have to figure it out. I do hate the cloudiness and since I dose traces every other day (but Sunday) that's almost 50% of the time with cloudy water. That's enough time to switch to something else. I just have to figure out what to do....


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Why would you need to run a UV sterilizer 24x7 for fish TB? If it can survive outside fish, a few days should do it. If it exists within fish as carriers, any scrap of their waste is suspect. If anything I'd think it'd starve the immune system for tolerance against newly introduced diseases.

Cutting the phosphates back to a reasonable level probably wouldn't hurt. Increased PO4 will only drive NO3 consumption up, which will turn your reds to green.

-Philosophos


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

Philosophos said:


> Increased PO4 will only drive NO3 consumption up, which will turn your reds to green.


not necessarily 
depends on the sp. and other parms.

PO4 closer to NO3 (a tighter ratio in the water column)
is a way to coax nice color from some spp. without borderline limiting them.
meaning high yield with good color and leaf shape.

but the plants have to actually be taking it in. 
excess of anything when something else is limited, well we all know how that goes.

I think many people who struggle with color have not grasped the 
concept of balanced dosing, and I mean that in the nicest way. 
It takes practice to get it, and usually killing or repeatedly stunting
some spp. that require balance before it sinks in.

I think it is easier to do by observation than testing, but I'm terrible (and bored)
when it comes to testing water.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

We're talking standard EI dose here from what I understand. High NO3, not limiting. The PO4 levels required to match would be ridiculous. I'd find it easier to just cut down on the KH2PO4 until the red pushes out. If that fails because of feeding 95% of dried foods, maybe a drop down to 10-20ppm NO3 rather than 20-40ppm as the next step.

-Philosophos


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

Philosophos said:


> We're talking standard EI dose here from what I understand. High NO3, not limiting. The PO4 levels required to match would be ridiculous. I'd find it easier to just cut down on the KH2PO4 until the red pushes out. If that fails because of feeding 95% of dried foods, maybe a drop down to 10-20ppm NO3 rather than 20-40ppm as the next step.
> 
> -Philosophos


the problem is recognizing and avoiding limits. I may be the only one in this hobby who has dropped PO4 or NO3 to chase color and ended up getting it - and getting slower growth and less healthy plants in the process. or hitting a limit and then having plants stunt or algae bloom because I have a whole lot of something else in the water column. as much as I dislike water testing, a photospectrometer shows uptake rates if you do enough tests over a short period of time. that nice ratio of macros you dose and test maybe once a week (less? more?) with a non-calibrated test kit is moving apart at different rates based on sp. mix and other parameters. not saying _you_ do any of these things Philosophos or have any of these problems, but I sure have.

but if Tex Gal's water has high phosphates, yeah dont dose so much. Find balance in your dosing, and if guessing/testing gets too hard - use RODI for water changes. That really simplifies dosing especially if your tap conditions fluctuate or are less than ideal.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Only one in the hobby? Tom Barr has done it just fine, as well as others who have done some very nice EI competition tanks.

PMDD or PPS pro is lean enough to create it from what I've seen. ADA ferts use phosphate limitation right off the start; Amano has some GSA issues in his earlier pictures to reflect this. I've seen high red in high light frequently enough.

As for my self, I dose macros 4x a week, micros 3x with calibrated test kits. Anything less than 4x a week for high light seems insufficient IMO.

Most people overlook their food as a first big step. I've done the math a few times over, food alone can offer a very large part of the PO4 a tank needs if feedings are daily or heavy. Sometimes it pays to look on the back of the container, or at some dry weight analysis reports on the live food of choice, and the food that it consumes.

-Philosophos


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Drinda,

First of all, your tank is gorgeous. Why change anything? So what if it precipitates? Add micros right before lights-out. By morning it'll probalby be clear.

As far as your original question goes - as far as I can tell there is no legitimate purpose for Flourish Trace. Standard Flourish is just fine.

I started with CSM+B, moved to Flourish, switched to TMG, and I'll be moving back to Floruish once my stock of TMG runs out. Like the others said, the TMG price went up ridiculously. The difference between Flourish and TMG is perhaps real, but quite minimal IME.

As far as UV goes, there are plenty of people running it 24/7, me included. I can't see that it hurts much. People like to argue this back and forth. Maybe you do loose a bit of the chelation. Dose a bit more iron to compensate.

Yes, there is a substantial quantity of PO4 in fish food.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

Philosophos said:


> Only one in the hobby? Tom Barr has done it just fine, as well as others who have done some very nice EI competition tanks.
> 
> PMDD or PPS pro is lean enough to create it from what I've seen. ADA ferts use phosphate limitation right off the start; Amano has some GSA issues in his earlier pictures to reflect this. I've seen high red in high light frequently enough.
> 
> ...


"only one in the hobby" - was a tongue in cheek way of saying yes - I'm aware of all these methods - yes I have tried running low PO4 or low NO3 to get some kind of result. and I am probably the only one in the hobby that has actually has had problems with it. Because I see a lot of recommendations to 'lower' this or 'raise' that, and nobody says as often that doing so can cause instability. Or that they have experienced problems from running too lean or rich or out of balance. before this turns into some kind of EI vs PPS arg or something sillier, I'll drop it. My only point was that balance is helpful - the ratios between what you dose. Not the level, and especially not running lean on purpose.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I discussed that opalescence problem with Drinda few weeks ago. I have the same problem in a very stable established tank. I have been using only dry fertilizers in it for at least 3 years. In the last 2 months or so a slight hazing started to appear right after I add the P and the CSM. The tank is not in my house so I was told that the haze disappears in about 2 to 3 days.

In the last 3 weeks we started adding the CSM a day later, after all the other fertilizers. I don't think the hazing is as pronounced but I can't be sure since I don't see the tank but once a week. 

In any case it's confusing to me to see how the same fertilizers that worked with no issues for a long time all of a sudden do something a little different. The plant health has not suffered but the hazing is annoying. I've had the same problem with Seachem Trace and Seachem Phosphorus. So I don't think it's a brand issue. I'm inclined to think that the chemicals age, but that would be hard to prove especially if the plants do fine.

I do think that elevated amount of P could very well be the reason. I don't see how that works in my case but I've seen that hazing happen in a tank that had P about 40 ppm (yes, fourty) so I associate it with higher P also.

--Nikolay


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Water companies do add orthophosphate for supposed control of pipe corrosion. It's possible they're playing with concentrations.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

ashappard said:


> "only one in the hobby" - was a tongue in cheek way of saying yes - I'm aware of all these methods - yes I have tried running low PO4 or low NO3 to get some kind of result. and I am probably the only one in the hobby that has actually has had problems with it. Because I see a lot of recommendations to 'lower' this or 'raise' that, and nobody says as often that doing so can cause instability. Or that they have experienced problems from running too lean or rich or out of balance. before this turns into some kind of EI vs PPS arg or something sillier, I'll drop it. My only point was that balance is helpful - the ratios between what you dose. Not the level, and especially not running lean on purpose.


I wasn't looking for a debate vs. methods my self either. Too busy for it over the next few days to get in-depth.

Ratios aren't something I've seen as solid personally. There's tendencies, no doubt; optimum ranges because of prerequisites for what a submerged aquatic macrophyte is made out of. They bend though; dry weight analysis shows some pretty stunning things with iron ranges. PO4 has a nice tendency to allow for GSA bloom before stunting shows up, it the levels are dropped cautiously.

Personally I've always wanted to try out using filters to push carotenoid action spectrum while keeping the usual ~440nm range lower than normal. It may not be in the quantity of light, but I have a hard time believing that spectrum is completely ignored too.

-Philosophos


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I have no issues with the reds in my tank. My colors are intense and of many hues. I do hate the precipitation. I do have phosphates in my water but if I cut back on the phosphates I end up with Green algae on the glass of my tank. If I cut back on the KNO3 some of my plants begin to melt. 

I recently did cut back on my extra Potassium as I was getting some leaf curling and that has stopped. I have such massive plant growth and nutrient hog plants in there that I need the amounts I am dosing. I think I will try Seachems Flourish for a while just to see what happens. I'm intrigued with your opinions that it's better than the CSM+b. I guess since Niko tried it and still had the cloudy water I'm not sure what will happen about that. I guess I'll see.

Bryce thanks for the tank comments. Great idea about adding the micros at night. Seems like a DUH! moment... LOL


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I find CSM+B to be lacking in something. The plants don't seem to grow properly without large frequent water changes or flourish additions.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

What deficiency's have you noted Zapins?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

The deficiencies seem rather specific to Rotala macrandra (which is a rather sensitive plant anyway). The leaves seem to go clear or dark and clear in patches and new growth is slightly twisted in appearance. Overall the plant tends to look blackish-red-clear. The deficiency symptoms don't seem to conform to anything I know about (and I've seen my fair share of obscure deficiencies), and after tinkering with the tank for a long time (nearly a year) I am convinced that it was not a problem with macros or any of the other more readily used (and testable) micros like Ca/S/K/etc... 

Since I was only using CSM+B at the time and virtually RO water, I assume that it had something to do with CSM+B lacking something, or perhaps lacking an adequate concentration of some nutrient. It might just have been the batch of CSM+B I had though since I've been using the same batch for years and years now. The condition goes away when well water is used. The plant grows beautifully then, adding to my suspicion of CSM+B.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

I use 100% RODI water for changes (my tap is awful)
very low GH is the cause of some deficiencies I have experienced. 
or I should say upping GH (Ca,Mg) at water change was the solution to the deficiency.
but then some people say you dont need GH because they never add it to their RO.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

*I doubt that PO4 is the cause of the haze.*

I doubt that PO4 is the cause of the haze.

I was curious about PO4 causing precipitates in your tank; so, I checked it out.
I took samples of my tank water and spiked them with my KH2PO4 dosing solution to 50, 100 and 200ppm PO4. Then using a micro pipette I added the correct amount of my CSM+B dosing solution. There was no observable haze in any of the samples. Then I took 2 ml of my 11,000ppm dosing solution and added 2 ml of my CSM+B dosing solution. No precipitate formed and it has been sitting on my desk for about an hour.

The evidence seems to suggest that my CSM+B is stable in the presence of PO4.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

The odd thing about this is that, like Niko said, it didn't do it at first. It's just weird. I don't know what the deal is.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Tex Gal said:


> The odd thing about this is that, like Niko said, it didn't do it at first. It's just weird. I don't know what the deal is.


I can think of a few possibilities but like everyone else's opinion's they are just guesses.

I am assuming that you are following the EI plan and doing the 50% water changes weekly? If not do some water changes?

I am assuming that you have not started using a new package of CSM+B? If not, that may be the problem.

The last thing I would guess is that the CSM+B went bad.

If you have a different lot of CSM+B try that, if not PM me and I'll send you some of mine to see if it reacts differently. I know mine does not have a problem with precipitates in my tank.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: I doubt that PO4 is the cause of the haze.*



ray-the-pilot said:


> The evidence seems to suggest that my CSM+B is stable in the presence of PO4.


I agree, I've had my PO4 levels extremely high and dosed heavily with micros with no cloudiness. There must be some other factor that makes it cloudy. Perhaps three things are required for cloudiness...

Maybe the UV light contributes in some way, since it can convert certain metals to different states. This changes the bonding properties and might make it easier to bind with the PO4 and precipitate.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I have gone through several batches of CSM+b. As a matter of fact I just began a new batch the other day. Thanks Ray for the offer of your new batch. I should try to cut off my UV to see if there is a difference. I haven't done this yet but do plan to try it. I am faithful with my w/c every Sunday. 

Zapins, I was surprised to hear the issues you've had with R. macrandra. I have that plant and have no issues like that. It's healthy and happy.

With all the variables we deal with you never know what may be causing this thing or that one. It's a real guessing game sometimes.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Ugh, I know. I hate the fact that there are so many variables and its basically impossible to figure out what causes what.

The R. mac never used to give me problems, then I moved and had city water that was virtually RO water with 0 ppm everything. The troubles were only with the city water. I recently moved again, to a place with well water and now the R. mac is doing just fine, in fact, I've never seen it so red, its virtually magenta. 

I think the city water must have been lacking in something important to macrandra...


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi 

Is Ca or Mg lacking in your aquarium(s)?

Left C


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Nope, that was the first thing I checked. I had the GH at about 10 degrees in a 3:1 ratio with magnesium, plenty of K too.

I'm not sure what could have caused the weird growth, its honestly nothing I've ever seen before or since, or even mentioned online. Strangely other Rotalas didn't do well either, having somewhat similar, but less severe symptoms as the R. mac. 

This was about 2 years ago by the way, the R. mac is doing fine now


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

I keep my UV on 24/7. I've been running my set up for over a year with no problem. 

Since you are doing regular water changes it seems that the only thing that could be going off is your city water. Maybe there is an increase in the iron level of your city water? 

Just another wild guess?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm... do you mean iron poisoning?

I'm not sure, I definitely used to use CSM+B, so it probably wasn't an iron deficiency lol, perhaps an overdose? I'm not entirely sure.

The water didn't taste like iron though...

I wonder if it was softened with different salts, perhaps it was and that is what caused the problems? Maybe that's why I'm not familiar with the plant symptoms? What could affect the clarity of the leaf and make it look black and clear?


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

My post wasn’t to you it was to Tex Gal. I thought that there might be iron in her city water. If the iron was a different valence from the iron in CSM + B this could be the cause of a precipitate.
If you were talking to Tex Gal then my apologies.
BTW linking to the correct post is a problem on this BB. If I were talking to you our posts should look like this:

Zapins His post
...........RTP His post (without the dots)

If I were talking to Tex Gal our posts should look like this:

Zapins His post
RTP His post


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## 2ManyHobbies (Sep 11, 2007)

Anything ever come out of this? I noticed the exact same thing the other day and appear to have correlated it to my UVS (UV sterilizer).

I was having an issue with hazy/green water so I turned on the UV sterilizer. Within an hour the water was cloudy. Water change and it cleared up. I attributed the cloudy water to the dead biofilm that was being blasted off the inside chamber of the UVS. (it had been plumbed in long time ago, never used) Sure enough after the water change and a few days the water was crystal clear. 

After a few days I noticed that the cloudy water had returned. A few water changes and back to crystal clear. I noticed that the cloudy water seemed to correlate with the addition of my CSM +B. (running EI) It would celar up on its own withing48 hours, just in time for my next addition of CSM.

During this time, maybe a period of 2 to 3 weeks, I noticed that my E. compressum and S. 'Low Grow' especially started to look at bit rough. All the leaves of the Erio started to look a bit lighter and started melting. New growth on both of them slowed significantly. I shut off the UVS and kept dosing as normal. Cloudy water disappeared after CSM addition and the Erio and Staurogyne seems to be back on track. New leaves especially on the Eroio's are darker green than the old ones. 

For a little experiment I am going to sample the water before CSM addition, after CSM addition (about 30 min), turn on UVS and sample again once water is cloudy. Take an aliquot of the sampled cloudy water and hit it with some conc. nitric acid to see if the cloudiness disappears. Also, try another aliquot of the cloudy water and try to filter through a .2 micro syringe filter. If it does clear up, analyze the water for total ionic content and maybe ligand. Use the earlier samples as references. I want to know what the UVS is doing. 

For now my hypothesis is that the UVS is degrading the ligands on one of the metals (deprotecting it) to the point that the cation coordinates elsewhere- with another anion or ligand and crashing out. In theory one way to fix it would be to use UV stable ligands. On the other hand, none of this might be right. Need to collect some data! 

Or- has this already been done and am I wasting my time?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

It sounds like the UV is precipitating the iron out of solution. You might try putting the UV on a timer to run it only at night to keep the water clear.


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## 2ManyHobbies (Sep 11, 2007)

So if that is true, would changing the ligand type keep that from happening? Any iron that is precipitated would need to replaced?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

You mean trying a different chelator? The DTPA is supposed to be better than the EDTA in the CSM+B. How much better I'm not sure. They all break down in the presence of light so I still think the solution is to put the UV on a timer.


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