# Completely new to this - is my lighting too harsh?



## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

Hi everyone,

I'm very new to both this forum and natural planted tanks and I'd love to get some help on understanding if my lighting set up is too much or not enough.

Quick recap on my journey so far: 

Used a 6 litre / 1.5 gallon tank
Originally started with Dry Start Method but found mould after a few days, so I removed all mould and submerged
After two days, I'm noticing some of my Monte Carlo has turned white/transparent/brown (see photos attached).

I know this could be for a few reasons:

- I'm in Australia and my jar was getting direct sunlight and was at a temperature of 33 degrees for an entire day.
- I know it's also pretty common for MC when in transition to die off and regrow.

To fix this, I've moved my jar into a cooler room which gets less direct sunlight, I'm hoping that fixes the problem BUT, I still don't know if the lighting set up I bought is too harsh or not.

Can someone please help me with this?

I bought an IKEA Smart Light set-up with a 1000 lumens bulb.

This is the product description of the bulb I'm using.


The bulb is at its brightest setting which is 1000 lumens, it's also 11W. I have no idea if this is too much or not enough.
I am currently using the siesta method and running this bulb from 7am to 12pm and 4pm to 9pm.

Am I overthinking this? The product description says 'the light from this LED bulb feels as strong as the light from a traditional 72W incandescent bulb'.

Any help on this would be great.

Thanks.

My Monte Carlo after a few days of being submerged:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

As long as the plants grow and not overtaken by algae, you're fine.


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## MistyPhi (Oct 30, 2019)

Hi jackmilk and welcome to the forums.

I am new to all this also, ahead of yourself by only a matter of weeks so I'm somewhat hesitant to offer advice and someone more experienced may well step in and override me later.

I can't comment on the plant development but as mistergreen said from my experience if it's going well run with it, if it's not don't panic immediately, have patience and observe for a little while.
When you had your tank near the window the plants were likely getting enough if not too much daylight, now you have moved it away and are more dependant on your artificial lighting you might want to take a look at your choice of bulb. The one you have is 2700k which is warm white and, if I understand things correctly, will not offer your plants the best colour spectrum. I believe colour temperature is more important than lumens (brightness), you want a daylight bulb 6000k or more. I didn't have a lot of choice down here in Tasmania so I didn't even consider lumens when I purchased my 6500k bulb from Woolworths, I think it's 1000 lumens the same as the one you are using, it's a 15w CFL on my 5 gal tank.

Another thing to consider, depending on the lamp you are using, is that you can adjust brightness by altering the position of your lamp whilst colour temperature is fixed. I often use my standard desk lamp to angle the light to darker areas as plants grow and block the path or to raise and lower it depending on the weather we are having, a potentially full time job here in Tasmania .

Here are a couple of links describing lumens and Kelvin:

Lumens - Kelvin

I'd love to see a couple more photos of your jar giving an overall perspective, I find I learn so much from simply observing how others do things.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Plants take several days to adjust to direct sunlight. Sunlight can cause the "photobleaching" you described.

I think that 1,000 lumens of LED light is plenty for such a small tank. A lot will depend on the actual distance from the bulb to the plants and how many hours per day you keep the light on.

In this new setups, you're going to have to tinker around and find out what's best for *your* situation. That part of the fun. Keep us posted on your progress.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

Is Monte Carlo compatible with an El natural tank?


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## MistyPhi (Oct 30, 2019)

From what I have read about Monte Carlo it requires a lot of CO2 which it is happy to take from the soil at first but eventually the soil will become depleted and the plant will struggle and die unless you add CO2 manually.

I bought some before I knew this and it is growing really well in my tank and makes a very pretty addition, currently it's about six weeks old and my tank is about nine. Having read the above I am expecting it to die off eventually but in the meantime I just enjoy it with the outlook to using it as a gauge to the soil CO2 becoming low/depleted at which point if it begins to die I shall remove it but will also know to look closely for other potential changes in the tank due to lower CO2 levels.

By itself it's probably not a good long term investment.


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

Thank you everyone for the responses - they've been an immense help!

This journey is definitely a bit of trial and error for me.

It's interesting to know that Monte Carlo isn't really suitable for the Walstad method. Considering it's currently the only plant I have in the tank, it sounds like I best get a few other varieties in there before algae shows its face.
*
Question - Once the soil 'depletes', is it useless? Will plants that are less CO2 reliant still be okay in it?*

I'm using ADA Aquasoil with a layer of the ADA Powersand Advanced below it.

If anyone's interested in my journey, here is a Google Photos album where you can see my progress. I update most days and leave comments.

I originally stated using the dry-start method but very quickly found that a piece of drift wood I had in the tank was getting moldy, so I flooded early and am now just waiting to see how the MC settles.

I will research now the best fast-growing plants I can put in here so make it a rich environment, and then once everything seems to have adjusted properly, I'll hopefully add some critters.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

If the Monte Carlo is by itself in a tank and doesn't have to compete for CO2, it may do okay long-term.

However, once you add more competitive plants, this species will probably die out.


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## MistyPhi (Oct 30, 2019)

Your jar looks great, love the new images with the amazon swords and frogbit. A complete restart was a big choice but it is looking good, I'll be interested to watch your progress.


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> If the Monte Carlo is by itself in a tank and doesn't have to compete for CO2, it may do okay long-term.
> 
> However, once you add more competitive plants, this species will probably die out.


Have added many more in today - so let's see how it goes!



> Your jar looks great, love the new images with the amazon swords and frogbit. A complete restart was a big choice but it is looking good, I'll be interested to watch your progress.


Thanks a lot, I really appreciate that.

I agree, it looks much nicer now. Fingers crossed that most things don't die lol.

The store I went to had pretty limited options so I'll probably look to source a few more.

I'm a bit worried that the rock is actually way too big, but too late to do anything about it now.

For those who are curious and haven't seen my Google Photos album:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Interesting! Lighting fine. I predict that rooted Amazon will start climbing out the jar.


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

Noticing a bunch of bubbles coming from the Pygmy, exciting I think?


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

If anyone's interested, it's been nearly a week since I added the new plants.

Unfortunately, it looks like at least the Amazon Sword Plant is withering - are they beyond salvage? (I bought them from an Aquarium store already submerged).

I was reading that Amazonio typically has a high ammonia spike in the first two weeks, so I did a 50% water change this afternoon - hoping that makes some kind of difference.

Have also slightly reduced the brightness of my lighting because I've noticed the tiniest bit of algae. Frogbit seems like it's growing well enough though.

Do you think the plants are salvagable?

My water test kit is arriving this week so hopefully helps me figure out what's wrong.

Left: last week / Right: today


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## zahtar (Sep 29, 2019)

Looking good! The stream of bubbles is oxygen released due to photosynthesis 

No idea about the amazon srd though...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I held off hoping that this jar would muddle through without my having to weigh in. It's no surprise now to me that the Amazon is disintegrating--or will shortly... Basically, the substrate is going severely anaerobic and will kill all rooted plants.

First, the substrate is too deep for such a small vessel. See if you can remove half an inch, at least. I would remove all water, scoop out an inch or so and replace with 1/4 inch of gravel or sand for a shallow cover.

Second, you've got a huge rock covering half of substrate, smothering the soil bacteria. UNLESS you've got rock safely lying on the glass bottom and can't live without it, I would remove the rock. (Focus should be on the plants, not the furniture.)

Third, you've blocked most of light to the Amazon with the floating plants. It can't photosynethesize to get oxygen down to its root area in an oxygen-sucking substrate. A double whammy... Remove some floating plants.

Fourth, to rescue the Amazon, I would gently poke the substrate a few time with a sharp object-- opened paper clip or long thin nail. Do this every day until the Amazon starts to recover. (It may not.)

I would make substrate rescue a priority. A substrate meltdown is in progress...


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> I held off hoping that this jar would muddle through without my having to weigh in. It's no surprise now to me that the Amazon is disintegrating--or will shortly... Basically, the substrate is going severely anaerobic and will kill all rooted plants.
> 
> First, the substrate is too deep for such a small vessel. See if you can remove half an inch, at least. I would remove all water, scoop out an inch or so and replace with 1/4 inch of gravel or sand for a shallow cover.
> 
> ...


Fantastic advice. Thank you.

Within the last week, I have come to a lot of the same conclusions myself, so it's good to hear them validated from yourself.

The rock is touching the glass bottom so it isn't covering the soil, but even still, I can accept that it's way too big, so I'm likely going to start again without it and do it by the book, as per your method.

Do you think it's wise to use new substrate as oppose to try to salvage what's already in there?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think your substrate is fine and that you should go ahead with it. Most soil substrates are fine; it's how you use them that counts.

You may have have had a "rocky" start, but overall I commend you. If you make a few mistakes with a small jar, so what! It is beginners that start with a 70 gal tank that worry me.


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## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

You really should best use that jar for pickling!...I know you are starting..but be reasonable,at least 10 gallons/40 liters to give you and the plants some room to grow. A 10 gallon with two 7 watt LED lights is more than enough..or by a window for free light added to the LED's.
You might get a small ecosystem in the jar...as a terrarium. Mosses and MonteCarlos would thrive,Buces..everything that needs expensive Co2 in aquariums..is fine on air.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

If that big rock is lying directly on the glass and not smothering the soil, it should not be an impediment to the jar's ecosystem. My apologies for dampening your enthusiastic start.

Small vessels like yours are great learning tools and can be fascinating. The most popular article on my website is 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp.' It's all about the setup of two 1 gal bowls and two 2 gal tanks.

Attached is picture I took minutes ago of a current 1 gal glass bowl. You can see one juvenile shrimp (RCS) in the middle. The two females in it pump out babies routinely, which I transfer to my guppy tanks to grow out. What I like about the bowls is that I don't need filtration or a heater. Water changes, which I do weekly on the two bowls, are easy. It's a great way to start out!


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## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

I don't know Diane,a beginner rarely has the idea of using small scale plants..since those are on average the most expensive. His use of Swordplants has "It's what they had at the fish store and looks nice"...those same plants in Amano's big tank get to be near 3' tall...an extreme of course.
Now,when I was new,a local fish store had a jar that was close enough to a bank of windows..it was a store to remind.. and on a shelf out of direct sun they had in the jar guppies and only a Hygrophila polysperma..when it was legal in California to sell. It was nice to see the trace of leaves up against the glass...
I would advise this gentleman as new to this, to think "small foliage"..and better,10 gallons of it.


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## zahtar (Sep 29, 2019)

The use of jars has some big advantages.

a)	Diana mentions in her 2017 article (link below) that "_Beginners learn how to work with soil. They discover which plant species adapt best to their aquarium conditions before setting up a large tank_". This means to me easier damage control if things don't work out as planned. I'd rather rinse and reset a 1gal bowl than an ordinary tank 
b)	You have the chance to test different substrates and caps. Some leech more than others. 
c)	Mobility. Want to try sunlight? How about changing windows?
d)	Magnifying effect is really cool for some plants one might not expect.

So the way I see it, one can start learning with easy small hardy plants (cryptocorynes, anubias, floating plants etc) and gradually move on to others. Jars and bowls are really helpful for this.

_Reference:_
https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/shrimprcs2017.pdf


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## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

I would disagree. Larger is always more stable than smaller. What kind of life for a guppy or Betta in a jar also? I'm old and now a softy on fish..a Guppy in a ten and hardy low light plants is where I would steer people. Jars to me are only good for shrimp or snails or rotifers for the kids science class. Higher forms? meh.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Fortunately we don''t all have to have one of every type of aquarium. Some people actually believe that aquariums should have salt water in them - yuck!! Others believe that an aquarium has to have a $250 CO2 system - ouch!!


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## jibbajab14 (Jan 21, 2020)

Not that there's anything wrong with having one of every type of aquarium...even though you've only been in the hobby for a few months. Ahem


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

Just wanted to quickly say thanks to everyone who has chimed in. Really great to get all of your advice along the way. I was going to delete the thread, but may leave it up for education purposes.



dwalstad said:


> If that big rock is lying directly on the glass and not smothering the soil, it should not be an impediment to the jar's ecosystem. My apologies for dampening your enthusiastic start.
> 
> Small vessels like yours are great learning tools and can be fascinating. The most popular article on my website is 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp.' It's all about the setup of two 1 gal bowls and two 2 gal tanks.
> 
> Attached is picture I took minutes ago of a current 1 gal glass bowl. You can see one juvenile shrimp (RCS) in the middle. The two females in it pump out babies routinely, which I transfer to my guppy tanks to grow out. What I like about the bowls is that I don't need filtration or a heater. Water changes, which I do weekly on the two bowls, are easy. It's a great way to start out!


Please don't apologise - you did nothing but help me understand a little bit better. I'm making a lot of mistakes but feel like I'm slowly getting there.

I love your tank! Definitely some inspiration for me. I have previously read your article but admittedly got too excited and hit the ground trying to run before I could walk. Won't make the same mistake next time.



Stan510 said:


> His use of Swordplants has "It's what they had at the fish store and looks nice"


Actually, I made a note of all plants Diana recommends as per this summary and bought whichever ones were available at the shop from that list.

If anyone's interested in an update, I've been following Diana's recommendations as per her previous post on my thread (poking to get the gas out regularly, water changes and trimming back the frog bit). I feel like the Swords are looking slightly more 'full' (today, on the right, middle several days ago).










My test kit finally arrived, these are my initial reads (after 3 water changes in the last week).


pH: 7.6
High Range pH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0.50 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

At this point, I'll see how this goes for the time being but prepare a second jar at the same time (prepare soil, add water and potentially let it leach/release ammonia for a few weeks before I add plants).

To be honest, I'm more excited to start again fresh with no giant rock, appropriate substrate levels and a greater abundance of plants to help the natural balance of the tank.

*One last question:* When I originally bought my materials, I ended up buying ADA Powersand Advance as a bit of a nutrient boost. Generally speaking, do you think this would hinder or help a Walstad tank? My fear is that it would help create anearobic gas due to the air gaps it creates?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

jackmilk said:


> *One last question:* When I originally bought my materials, I ended up buying ADA Powersand Advance as a bit of a nutrient boost. Generally speaking, do you think this would hinder or help a Walstad tank? My fear is that it would help create anaerobic gas due to the air gaps it creates?


Don't like to comment on commercial products, but I was blown away by the price ($35.99 for 2 liters) of what is essential a dirt mix. (If Mother Nature could only patent dirt!)

When you say air gaps, I assume we're talking about the air present in the substrate when it is submerged. I believe this is akin to tiny air pockets in perlite? The buried air bubbles would not create anaerobic gas. Rather the oxygen in them would temporarily (a few days) stimulate aerobic bacterial activity, which is good. In contrast, anaerobic gases are generated when bacteria run out of oxygen. This happens quickly, because bacteria--like us humans-- love oxygen. Then a whole suite of new bacteria take over--some with beneficial results (iron processing, denitrification) but some not so good (rapid consumption of root oxygen, generation of H2s and fermentation-produced acids ) (_See_ "Bacteria" chapter in my book.)

If you set up a new bowl... Suggestion: try not using the ADA product. Try an ordinary $5 bag of potting soil designed for growing houseplants. Don't fuss over brands. (If it's chemically rich, the plants may love it. With a small jar, you can always easily do a water change.  )


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Stan510 said:


> I would disagree. Larger is always more stable than smaller. What kind of life for a guppy or Betta in a jar also? I'm old and now a softy on fish..a Guppy in a ten and hardy low light plants is where I would steer people. Jars to me are only good for shrimp or snails or rotifers for the kids science class. Higher forms? meh.


I think everyone here would agree that a jar is too small for a guppy or betta. I don't think anyone is advocating for that. The jar is for experimenting with plants and soils, and perhaps for enjoying some shrimp. Actually, the point about the kids science class is pretty spot-on - seems like just a casual experiment to see what works.


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## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

Oh,ok...I thought this was leading to fish being kept in the jar. For plants only..totally different story. I misunderstood the premise.
Sure,even in a jar..that swordplant could be interesting as it grows out of the jar into a marsh plant...heavy pruning to allow finer foliaged plants under it.

Still, a 5 or 10 gallon does give you room to see things on flat glass and you might try some of those "Mexican Gammarus"..or Daphnia..rotifers going every which way is interesting. I've done those. After 45 years only Great White Sharks or Penguins keeping has escaped me.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Stan510 said:


> Still, a 5 or 10 gallon does give you room to see things on flat glass and you might try some of those "Mexican Gammarus"..or Daphnia..rotifers going every which way is interesting. I've done those. After 45 years only Great White Sharks or Penguins keeping has escaped me.


You have provided some interesting ideas for future projects!


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

Hi everyone.

Bit of an update on my end - the jar is actually doing surprisingly well (still cycling).

I am thinking of moving the whole set up into my sheltered greenhouse room and see how it goes with sunlight as its light-source while I use my LED setup for a second Walstad bowl (by the book this time).

I have a 3 gal bowl with Australian equivalent of Miracle Gro and black coloured gravel ready to go.

Based on Diana and Foo The Flowerhorn's recommendations, here is the list of plants I intend on buying. Do they sound okay to you? Would you remove or add any?

Eleocharis Acicularis (Dwarf Hair Grass)

Anacharis/Elodea (Waterweed)

Taxiphyllum barbieri (Java Moss)

Rotala sp. ‘Green’

Rotala sp. 'Pearl'

Rotala Bonsai

Rotala Rotundifolioa (Dwarf Rotala)

Riccia Fluitans (Floating Crystalwort)

Riccia Fluitans (Hornwort)

I can also pull in some Duckweed from my first attempt too if need be.

Any thoughts appreciated!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Glad to hear that the first bowl is doing well.

It seems like your plant list is mostly floating plants and stem plants, many from just a single genus (Rotala). Keep Rotala rotundifolia, a great reddish plant, in your order.

I would include a couple small or medium-size rooted plants like Sagittaria subulata, S. gramineae, Echinodorus tenellus, or a Cryptocoryne. If you use soil, ideally you want a good rooted plant to take advantage of it.


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## Stan510 (Dec 23, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> You have provided some interesting ideas for future projects!


Thanks Diane ! Funny that I was asked if I would mind taking care of the Penguins at Steinhart long ago?..I said "uh-no"!..somebody else got that job.

For that bottle,you might toss in Java moss...that fish store with the Hyrophila also had a jar with only that and guppies.


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## jackmilk (Jan 9, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Glad to hear that the first bowl is doing well.
> 
> It seems like your plant list is mostly floating plants and stem plants, many from just a single genus (Rotala). Keep Rotala rotundifolia, a great reddish plant, in your order.
> 
> I would include a couple small or medium-size rooted plants like Sagittaria subulata, S. gramineae, Echinodorus tenellus, or a Cryptocoryne. If you use soil, ideally you want a good rooted plant to take advantage of it.


Perfect - all purchased!

Arriving in the next few days, so I'll prepare the bowl and substrate in the mean time.

Final list:

* Eleocharis Acicularis (Dwarf Hair Grass) 
* Rotala sp. 'Pearl' 
* Rotala Bonsai 
* Rotala Rotundifolioa (Dwarf Rotala) 
* Riccia Fluitans (Floating Crystalwort) 
* Riccia Fluitans (Hornwort) 
* Anacharis/Elodea (Waterweed) 
* Taxiphyllum barbieri (Java Moss)
* Thin Vallisneria
* Echinodorus Tenellus (Pygmy Narrow Leaf Chain Sword)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good choices--more diversity. I'm glad that you included a Vallisneria, as it should--given enough light--develop a good root system. That will help keep a soil substrate from going anaerobic.

It will be exciting to see how this new bowl develops!


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