# Penac W



## niko

It took a while to find this pdf document on the www.organicsa.co.za web site.

For those who may not know Amano uses Penac W.

--Nikolay


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## pineapple

Hi, Nikolay,

In the recent thread on the Amano tank stats I queried Penac but no takers. Seems that it is not in use in the USA. It's easy to talk plants because one prunes, plants, replants them day-by-day. But when it comes to substrate issues such as Penac in the substrate the once-a-year-maybe dealing with substrate issue is not at the top of the mind. Once it is in there, it's in there and there is not a lot one can do about it without a complete tear-down.

Anyway, Penac, that link was the best that I have found (a South African link I think). I was wondering where to get some Penac in the USA. I would like to give it a shot.

Andrew Cribb


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## ShaneSmith

I want to try it to, what is this stuff? The website didn't help at all and i cant read the pdf file until after work.


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## Robert Hudson

THe PDF file didn't work for me, but hunting thru every page of their WEB site, I don't see a clear application for aquatic plants, a clear definition of what it is or what it does. On this page:

http://www.organicsa.co.za/Knowledge_Base/PenacP_ProdInfoPlants6-99.htm

it says it is available in two base forms, 1 is calcium carbonate, 98%, and the other is Molasses! I do not think I would want large amounts of either in my substrate. It's primary use seems to be to make the plants more disease resistant and resistant to bugs without pesticides. It also mentions larger root growth, but no where does it talk about using with aquatic plants.

Their Penac water product does mention aquariums, but it is to treat the water and somehow cut back algae, not to benefit plant growth. The same product is used as a sewage treatment. Their "plant" Penac is what contains calcium carbonate and is a soil treatment. As far as I could tell, Penac W (water) is a liquid for treating water quality. Where do you see an application for us?


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## MiamiAG

Folks,

I missed the comment on the Amano stats thread.

The Penac line is used by Amano and many people in Japan. As you may have learned, it is made in Germany and also popular their. 

It is not a substrate amendment in the sense that we think. It is meant to correct the biorythm of the aquarium through the use of certain powders and wood sticks. This is thought to increase the health of plants and the overall aquarium.

We never imported the line because we thought nobody in the US would buy into it. Snake oil comments would run rampant as we are not accustomed to such things here.

Anyway, it is certainly NOT available here. However, the Aqua-Equalizer may be something similar that some reef hobbyists are using.


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## plantbrain

Grey Coast Calcite= Onyx sand
Same stuff

Raises KH, has iron etc.

I use it in Marine, AF rift and FW.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tanVincent

Hi,

If anyone wants to lay their hands on some PenacW or PenacP, I'll be glad to help.

Cheers
Vincent


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## pineapple

Vincent,

What's your experience with Penac. Anything you can relate? Is it mainly of aid in starting up a tank or has it some sort of long-term advantageous effect? Is it expensive in Singapore?

Andrew Cribb


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## Robert Hudson

> the Aqua-Equalizer may be something similar that some reef hobbyists are using.


Well that thing is totally different, it is a supposed science that uses the energy of magnets that is supposed to have some affect on water quality, and has been severly raked over the coals as a bunch of hooey! If this stuff is as ambigouis as the Aqua equalizer, it would be laughed out of the market in no time. Biorythms in an aquarium heh? Biorythm in human health hasn't been taken very seriously either. Since this is the substrate forum I thought this was being discussed as something to add to the substrate. That was what I was looking for on their WEB site.


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## MiamiAG

It is used on the substrate. It is a powder and the sticks are buried in the substrate.

I likened it to the Aqua Equalizer because, IMHO, the science behind it is questionable as far as aquarium use. However, I have not thoroughly researched either item so can't really comment beyond this.

If anyone has tried either product, let us know.


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## niko

Well, if you read the web site carefully you will find a reference to a device that is similar to the Aqua Equalizer.

I personally have no doubt that in the US Penac and the like would be quickly labeled "snake oil". That of course is no statement that I believe or don't believe in those products.

--Nikolay


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## lefabe

Hi all,

New on APC, I see this thread and I 'll like to make my contribution. In France, product Penac is debated enough. 
Some used them with success, the others for which it has no effect. It is true that product Penac bases on no precise science, they seem improve the health of plants and aquarium at long term. There is a certain numbers of french websites talk about penac and the opinions are always mitigated according to the users.

At the moment those who used them regularly seems to see improvements in tank (better grows of plants, better health of plants and fishes, more crystalline water)

I hope that it was able to help you, if need I'll add the links of french websites who talking about penac.

note : In france, is very easy to find Penac products but it's more expensive.


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## plantbrain

Okay, I dug some stuff on it, it's "bioenzyme enhancers/batceria digesters, aerobic bacteria, sludge digesters", folks sell these bio digestors for drains, helping ponds etc, I've seen pond folks try it and lake management people in CA try it. 
Some tried to claim it would kill an algae lake problem if we bought 1000 gallons of it. Other person did buy if for their lake I recently consulted with.

Does it hurt? Maybe your wallet.

Long term improvements sound like cable talk to me. Cables work if you *believe* enough that they do.

If the effects are that subtle, it's hard to say if they work or not, controlled studies will tell, but if some have not had it work, some have, the observations seem to say in controlled case, it does not work.

Folks said excess PO4 causes algae, in a controlled study, it doesn't.
I do applied lake management for both algae and weeds. I'm very skeptical about this. We see this type of stuff every few months and someone trying to sell it or other variations of witch craft, moon bean lazers. Show me a controlled independent study on it.

I use the primary produces to balance the system, plants. That's the base of the ecosystems.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Raul-7

BTW, it's not the Aqua Equalizer, it's the Eco Aqualizer... :wink:


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## jsenske

Hey if Amano uses it - I'M GOING TO USE IT! Why not? :drinkers:

Seriously, though- it certainly doesn't harm the aquarium so I am currently using the PENAC P (Plants) on the 90cm (58 gal.) ADA tank here at ADG. I am afraid it will be hard to assess it's efficacy because of all the other variables on this tank (ADA substrate, HQI lighting, etc.) that are fairly unique to this tank versus others I've done with other similar plants/dimensions. So far the tank is doing wonderfully and making faster progress than any tank I have ever done, but I can hardly attribute that to just the use of PENAC. I can say the product has been around a good while if that means anything to anyone. I would think if it was just a total scam people would have exposed it by now. I have some difficulty believing also that Amano would attach his name to something that was just _totally_ bogus. I think it simply falls into a "supplemental"-type category of products-- not necessary to do great work/grow great plants, but perhaps helpful in some capacity.


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## plantbrain

Cables are not totally bogus.
Many still believe they work.
Many sell them.
Many buy them.
Many said I was naughty boy for saying not so nice things about them.

The stuff will not hurt though.
It's not a plant nutrient either.
I have a tough time seeing how non plant nutrients will increase growth of a plant.

Organics, symbiotic fungi, bacteria etc will improve cycling and availabilty of nutrients, but if those nutrients are in non limiting conditions available to the plants, those are non issues in terms of plant growth.

I know of at least 12 different fugal associations with SAM's, many you have kept. But if you provide a stable high nutrient tank, they do well eitherway.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## rybal

[smilie=l: 
[URL]http://fins.actwin.com/search.cgi?search=penac[/URL]
Tom


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## ryan_suiso

As you can see from that link above the first post was made by me back in '98 when ADA first started using the Plocher Energy System.

I remember talking to the owner of my favorite LFS in Japan years ago about this and he was a little unsure of the effectiveness of it. At that time Aqua Journal was publishing a whole section to promote it. The LFS owner said he tried it, but cannot say for sure if it had any positive or negative impact on his 90cm tank.

I believe there were some controlled studies done by ADA and published in Aqua Journal. Take this for what it is worth. Amano is a businessman, but he also knows how to grow plants. I don't believe Amano would use it just to sell a new product unless it had some benefits other than monetary.

Nonetheless, I put this in the category of Supplements. I can't honestly knock it unless I have tried it. 


Regards,


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## plantbrain

Generally, if I cannot get any positive effect, enhancement out of it, it's snake oil.

"Depends...." on what then?

Your _methods_.

If you have different methods and protocols, you might be limiting something and that will influence your results. This is most of the problems folks have when testing.

I rarely/seldom find folks that are able to do that and folks that ask about snake oils often have issues to begin with.

PO4 is a very good example. If you make sure the other parameters are non limiting, then it's not an issue dosing large amounts, this has held true for non CO2 tanks IME as well.

You can see a positive plant growth effect.
Dupla also said the same crap about cables and present "who knows what" as data for support.

Look, if it improves the "long term health" of the tank and is "subtle", heck, I can sugar and say the same thing.

That was the arguement for heat cables.

Something less subtle?
How about regular routine maintenance, water changes, filter cleanings, removal of any left over leaves, excess mulm............
Those don't cost 9$ an ounce.

If I already have awesome growth, no algae and rapid growth, why would I want or need a subtle product for enhancement?

Many people that do not use these products grow plants as nice if not nicer.
Green spot algae on Anubias is very common in a number of ADA's tanks. I know why.... and it's not a lack of Penac...

Nothing new, so what is it that this product will actually do for my tank under a controlled set up?

Is it going to growth the plants better? Help the bacterial cycling?

I add PO4, it'll help reduce glass algae, it'll help increase pearling, growth etc.
Same for CO2 and other nutrients.

Unless the methods address these other issues, I will remain skeptical.

Why would folks have issues and no results and some might?
Same was sdaid for Algone and other algicides.

This seems even less supportable.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jsenske

It is so interesting- all the chatter on this product does not go away even though everyone makes fun of it and calls it bunk, junk, snake oil and totally useless. I use it and I can get it anytime if anyone wants to try it for themselves. 

People tell me I look younger and more radiant- when they ask my secret I say, "why it's PENAC, of course!".


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## Phil Edwards

I think all those suppliments for ADA stuff are designed for the person who wants a beautiful tank but isn't interested in knowing exactly what they're adding. As long as it works and grows beautiful plants then they're happy. Amano's been doing this longer than I've been alive, I have no doubts he's got some idea of how to grow plants. Yes, he's in the business to make money, but I highly doubt he'd put out something truly useless just to make a buck. ADA seems to be doing well enough without that.


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## jsenske

Thank you Phil. I personally could not agree more. Thank goodness, however, you can still grow awesome plants an have a beautiful tank without having to use every last product with a claim. It's like any other hobby/craft- there are products out there to augment whatever you have already been doing or just to experiment with or remedy a very specific issue. Doesn't mean everyone needs to feel pressure to get some Penac- but frankly many (myself included) are moved enough by Amano's work to want to try and duplicate his formula for success as much as possible. If Penac is part of that, then that's what I want to use. Obviously no one is forcing me to try it- I make my own choices! So does everyone else. Certainly,though, if you think it's bunk, then by all means express yourself- that's part of what these forums are for. I just keep seeing the same old argument over and over regarding this particular (and obviously still controversial) product and find it interesting.


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## travis

plantbrain said:


> How about regular routine maintenance, water changes, filter cleanings, removal of any left over leaves, excess mulm............
> Those don't cost 9$ an ounce.


 Is that actually the price? I could use five-nines pure silver as a supplement at the same price to increase the electrical conductivity of my water for my Blyxa. :lol:

But seriously, I've always been one to require empirical evidence of efficacy before I'll invest - especially if the price is that high. Call me a skeptic.


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## plantbrain

Sales and marketing are not plant science.
The issue for me is one of understanding the mechansims that help plant growth in the aquatic environment.

This understanding led(and still is) to many changes and solutions.
Does not matter *what* product you use.

Understanding what is really significant or not is a key to understanding Amano, Dupla, or Joe Blow's method. Then you can say whether or not a product is useful, and worth the $.
You also know why and what is occuring with a product.
Educate yourself and then you are able to evaluate.

Teach a man to hunt and you will no longer need to feed him.

Whether it's *something else* that's wrong in the person's tank and system or is it something else? Hobbyists seldom, if ever, do controls to see.

I doubt Penac is a required plant nutrient.
A nice aquascape and photograph does not imply a great system nor does time in the hobby.

If everyone already knows that PO4 additions do not cause algae, then companies are more likely to put their ingredients on the bottles.

One thing many folks fail to see is the *amount* of labor and work Amano does on the tanks.

If folks did that much labor and energy consistently, they too would awesome aquascapes.

So if you can bottle this.... then you might have a winner.
That is something I try to show people.

Amano does as well but many don't hear that or else they hear it too much and become cynical about pruning 3x a week trimming Riccia or other fears and excuses for not trying a method or design.

There are solutions to many issues but I do not think Penac is going to achieve many of them. If you or ADA or Penac have support other than belief, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

You can try it and see for yourself, then you'll know. Bertter plan on a controlled test if you want to see real support. Replicates also, alternatively block designs are useful when there are not many replicates available, takes longer though. People believed PO4 caused algae, I added it and found out it did not. But then you need to ask yourself why.

So why would Penac help?
I can understand why PO4 helps in terms of plant health, plant health and growth rates are the core issues in the hobby.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Robert Hudson

It just amazes me that so many people are willing to take something on such vague face value. Even the Eco equalizer tries to base it on some science and defines its purpose. Nobody here can even explain what it is supposed to do other than making plants grow better, maybe...in the long term... is that it? Is that the whole purpose for using it? Even if its all sales hype, thats not even good hype! Amano needs a better marketing consultant. There are all sorts of suppliments, such as growth hormones. You can debate the effectiveness of using root hormones for example, but at least you can understand what they are and what they are supposed to do.

I think I am open to trying anything, but not just on the premise of "use it because it works, but I don't know why"


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## jsenske

Relax. Most are just giving it a try- seeing if they see any results. No big deal, they don't seem to worried about it one way or the other. Just satisfying curiosity- like I've been doing. I know that pains some folks to hear, but it's not that big a deal I don't think. Don't worry,this is not going to be the next revolutionary product or big-seller or anything. Sorry I don't know how to conduct a proper university lab research study on it- wish I did. Want me to send you some, Tom?? Give it the ol' college try?


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## MiamiAG

Well, I agree with Jeff. Lets discuss this without emotion getting the best of us.

I agree that there is very little written in English about the ADA Penac line of products. There is a reason for that. ADA believes, and I agree, that the US market is not interested in such products. In generalities, we don't believe in biorhythms or consider the impact of energy on overall health and wellbeing. There are other cultures that are much more willing to accept such concepts.

If you want to know more about ADA's Penac system, go to the source of the products: http://www.plocher.de/english/index2.php . It is the Plocher website in English. Read up on the theory. It was started by Roland Plocher back in the 1980s.

Believe it. Don't believe it. It is up to you. However, please respect those that don't agree with your opinion.

ADA is a firm believer in these products. However, they understand that others may not believe in them. Therefore, these products are not necessary to achieve very good results with the ADA line of products.


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## jppurchase

*Re: Plocher System and Penac Products*



Art_Giacosa said:


> Folks,
> 
> It is not a substrate amendment in the sense that we think. It is meant to correct the biorythm of the aquarium through the use of certain powders and wood sticks. This is thought to increase the health of plants and the overall aquarium.
> 
> We never imported the line because we thought nobody in the US would buy into it. Snake oil comments would run rampant as we are not accustomed to such things here.
> 
> Art,
> 
> Get ready for the SNAKE OIL comment! While I don't claim to understand the intricacies Quantum Physics, I know a line when I hear one. There isn't a single verifiable iota of real scientific proof that this stuff works. Tranferring vibrational energy indeed. Better to stand by your aquarium with a tuning fork and humm "America The Beautiful".
> 
> A truckload of cow manure will do more to improve garden soil than all the Penac products in the world.
> 
> James Purchase
> Toronto


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## jppurchase

*Plocher Products for Aquariums*

After a little digging and the judicious use of Babel-Fish to translate from French to English, I've discovered that there are a lot of Plocher products designed for use in aquariums.

The "hardware" part of the System is called Plocher WasserKat, and is supposed to be attached to the incoming water pipe in your home (or perhaps onto the tubing of a canister filter). This is supposed to transfer some type of energy to the water.

Is an apparatus which one fixes, without modifying it, on a water pipeline (food PVC quality tube, for example). It has information corresponding to a spring water. Its lifespan is, theoretically, unlimited.

There are 2 sizes, one twice as expensive as the other (in the neighbourhood of $350.00 for the small and $750 for the large). The large would handle a whole house.

The "software" section of the system is where it gets interesting. What follows is a complete list of all of the Plocher products aimed at aquarists:

hq 5012 Plocher fresh water (CaCo3)
Cleared up water, optimizes the operation of the aquariums
Price: 14.90 € Gross weight: 50

hq 5031 Plocher fresh water 200g (silica)
Cleared up water, optimizes the operation of the aquariums
Price: 67.50 € Gross weight: 220

While I'm not 100% certain, I also found reference to the following 3 products which might either be the same as the aobve or very similar:

1. Plocher fresh water

The support is quartz powder (there is also one on support carbonates calcium). Information contained makes it possible to naturally stimulate the vital processes of the aerobic bacteria, fish, the plants.

4. Plocher W "Basins of gardens - reduction of turbidity and the silting" 
5. Plocher W "Basins of gardens - general stabilization and reduction of the algae" :

Information is also made available on quartz powder. The joint use of these two new specialities allows an improvement even more targeted aquatic environment. The general stabilization of water is remarkable, as well in a basin of garden as in a fresh water aquarium. The various tests which we carried out gave us whole satisfaction.

hq 5011 Stick fresh water
Cleared up water, optimizes the operation of the aquariums
Price: 6.50 € Gross weight: 10

Now, these are interesting. Designed to be inserted into the substrate of an aquarium.

Each stick is composed of terra cotta which surrounds a material carrier data (a reduced model, to some extent, famous "tubes" utililized by Roland Plocher for giant volumes such as the lakes). Just as Plocher fresh water, they support the vital processes, but they have an action much stronger, and allow a permanent basic salary, by more durably supplementing the stimulation impelled by the tool on support powders. Their lifespan is very significant.

The number of sticks according to the volume of the aquarium :

For 15 liters	1 stick
For 60 liters	2 sticks
For 100 liters	3 sticks
For 200 liters	5 sticks
For 300 liters	8 sticks
For 400 liters	10 sticks
For 500 liters	12 sticks
For 600 liters	13 sticks
For 900 liters	14 sticks
For 1 200 liters	15 sticks

To perfect the action

hw 4131 Plocher anti algae (silica)
Slow down the development of the algae
Price: 28.50 € Gross weight: 220

hw 4132 Plocher Anti Algae (silica)
Slow down the development of the algae
Price: 14.00 € Gross weight: 70

hw 4231 Plocher anti Mud (Silica)
Support the decomposition of the organic matter
Price: 28.50 € Gross weight: 220

hw 4232 Plocher anti mud
Support the decomposition of the organic matter
Price: 14.00 € Gross weight: 70

hw 4031 Plocher Water surface (Silica)
Oxygenate water
Price: 28.50 € Gross weight: 220

hw 4032 Plocher Water surface (Silica)
Oxygenate water
Price: 14.00 € Gross weight: 70

Information is made available on quartz powder. It makes it possible to regulate the problems involved in eutrophication (lack of oxygen, proliferation of algae, unbalances cycles of transformation of the organic matter). This speciality is intended initially for the treatment of large water parts, such as ponds and lakes.

Hg 3131 Plocher plants P (Dolomite)
Optimize the development of the plants, activates chlorophyl
Price: 19.00 € Gross weight: 150

hq 5112 Plocher Sea water (CaCo3)
Cleared up water, optimizes the operation of the aquariums
Price: 14.90 € Gross weight: 50

hq 5132 Plocher Sea water (CaCo3)
Cleared up water, optimizes the operation of the aquariums
Price: 67.50 € Gross weight: 220

hq 5111 Stick Sea water
Cleared up water, optimizes the operation of the aquariums
Price: 6.50 € Gross weight: 10

hw 4331 Plocher anti phosphates (silica) fresh water - sea water
Degrade phosphates
Price: 35.00 € Gross weight: 220

hw 4334 Plocher anti nitrates (silica) fresh water - sea water
Degrade nitrates
Price: 35.00 € Gross weight: 220

2124 food Complement fish
Reinforce the vitality of fish
Price: 15.00 € Gross weight: 50

food 35 for fish between 3 and 5 cm
Reinforce the vitality of fish
Price: 19.50 € Gross weight: 180

food 510 for fish between 5 and 10 cm
Reinforce the vitality of fish
Price: 19.50 € Gross weight: 180

This information comes from the French website for econature:

http://econature.fr/aquariophilie.htm

Amano is listed as the Japanese importer of Plocher products, so I'm guessing that his Penac W and Penac P are re-packaged version of a couple of the above products.

I wonder why he doesn't list/carry the sticks? Everything I've been able to find on theis System indicates that the sticks are an integral part of the trio (Plocher Sticks, Plocher W and Plocher P).

I couldn't see any listing for a US Importer, but there is a Canadian one - I've sent an e-mail asking for further information on availability and cost. But from everything I've seen online, ADA's pricing on Penac P and Penac W seems fair and reasonable.

Sorry for the length of the post.

James Purchase
Toronto


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## Laith

I was reading through that site and just a clarification and more info (I do speak French):

WasserKat is some type of "anti-calcaire" system. This is supposed to reduce the build-up of calcium deposits in your water pipes. It works by "acting on the crystalline structure of minerals. This transformation limits the adherence and incrustation of minerals in all your pipes and any equipment using water".

So that is not specifically made for aquariums.

The system for fresh water aquariums is composed of the sticks and what they call "Plocher fresh water" additive.

The fresh water additive (along with the sticks), does the following: "We use Calcium Carbonate, a natural mineral, to receive natural micro-vibration information to support natural auto-regeneration and biological processes. This micro-vibration information tends to regenerate the environment in which they are used by putting them in harmony with their energy message".

After adding the sticks (on top of the substrate, not buried in it) and treating with the additive for a couple of weeks, they strongly recommend adding all of the following products:

- Anti-algae
- Anti-Phosphate
- Anti-Nitrate
- Anti-Turbidity
- Anti-Surface Film

So why use the sticks and additive in the first place?? :???: 

Here's another tidbit: "All Plocher products must be stored on a wood support, far from any electromagnetic interference".

And for info, Plocher also makes a fish food additive, Plocher t, which is an "intelligent/informed powder" which allows fish to "better assimilate" their food.

Well, I find all of this very amusing. Does it work? I can't say as I've never tried it...

One thing I have to say: Hats off to Mr. Plocher! he has apparently made a business out of this stuff. :razz:


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## plantbrain

Sorry, I still feel as Robert Hudson does about this.

You can tell quickly if someone has done the science and if the product works, they give data and it shows consistent effectiveness.

They waffle around the issue all through their comments. 

Bio cycling in an aquatic ecosystem is something I have professional, academic and hobby based experience in specifically related to water treatments and aquatic plants. 

I'd welcome any real data, thus far, I have yet to see a single bit.
We have folks come around and try and sell the state of CA snake oil every so often to kill weeds or algae. I end up doiung the research to see if it works or not.

Why I am harsh on it?

This product line preys on ignorance, suspicion and people's attitudes, not if it's truly effective or not based on data.

If they had the data, they'd proudly display it.
That's a solid sale. If you don't have any data, then you have to work on the sales.

I demand data for things being used here in CA to control these pest. No data, no support, does not make sense on a critical level, don't even bother. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

jsenske said:


> Relax. Most are just giving it a try- seeing if they see any results. No big deal, they don't seem to worried about it one way or the other. Just satisfying curiosity- like I've been doing. I know that pains some folks to hear, but it's not that big a deal I don't think. Don't worry,this is not going to be the next revolutionary product or big-seller or anything. Sorry I don't know how to conduct a proper university lab research study on it- wish I did. Want me to send you some, Tom?? Give it the ol' college try?


Sure.
I'd like some background research first. Any real data anywhere? Or is any data a trade secret?

Trade secrets relate to the materials and mixes, not the data from the results.
So why is there not any?

I'll test some things, but I've tested literally 20 things just like this over many years, all have failed and gone the way of the Dodo.

You are welcomed to send me some. 
Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jsenske

Wow- what an ancient post. I forgot about that long ago. Personally, I'm through with trying to convince anyone of anything regarding this product. I like what it does for my tanks and that's about it. I merely answer questions as they are asked; had 2 just yesterday. 
On a side note, sales of Penac W on a recent order went up 300% from the previous order. Dodos rejoice.


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## standoyo

Hi all,

Is there any worthy follow up data?

Regards

Stan


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