# PayPal Customer Service?



## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

I just filed a claim against an eBay seller on PayPal, and although PayPal are investigating into it they can't guarantee a refund - which of course is worrying me. Has anyone had a bad experience with PayPal customer service?

PS. I know no one really cares, I just want to hear people's expierences with such problems.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

My only exerience with their customer service was when I downgraded my account back to personal level. The first request was never responded to so when I got some payments a couple of days later I was stil being charged the fees. It took a second request for it to get downgraded, but I didn't bother to make an issue over the $1 I lost to fees.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Raul I had the same problem, they responded pretty quickly, in less than a week I was able to get my 50$ back. No hassles.


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## omega (Apr 1, 2004)

The ONLY way for you to recover your losses is if the offending party still has money in his/her Paypal account. Otherwise, you get NOTHING. I've been scammed twice through this method. I paid, then the scammer withdrew all the money. By the time Paypal finishes their investigation (they have 30 days to investigate and it takes <2 minutes to withdraw all money from one's account), the offender is long gone to create yet another Paypal account and do this all over.

That's unfortunate but that's the way it is. I still don't know how to get in touch with Paypal for any kind of questions. Good luck getting a personal response back. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

On a side note, doesn't Paypal offer a 100% refund if you buy from ebay? Why would they not guarantee you recovered money?  You should look into that policy Raul. It's called Buyer's Protection I believe. That policy only covers transactions on ebay, not from anywhere else.


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## Mnemia (Nov 23, 2004)

I really hate PayPal, because they ripped me and several people I know off for plenty of cash a while ago. They basically just seized the money with no due process whatsoever in determining what happened. The problem wasn't even my fault but the person on the other end of the transaction. But PayPal takes the money just so that THEY aren't the ones money on fraud transactions.

Seriously, they aren't regulated like banks or credit card companies and can pretty much do almost anything they want as long as it is in their "Terms of Service". I refuse to support a company that shows so little regard for their own customers. I know it's convenient, but you are losing something which is the safety of your money. And I've heard of cases where Paypal took a lot more money from people than just what was in their Paypal accounts.

I just wish there was a convenient alternative that actually makes an effort to minimize fraud by TRULY verifying the identies of all their customers when they get an account. If fraud wasn't so high, they should be able to run their business in a way that is fair to the customers and still make a profit. I'm sure someone (banks maybe) will come up with a much better and safer cheap way to send small amounts of money online eventually - there's obviously a demand. Until then, I don't do business with people who will only deal with Paypal any more.


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## gnatster (Mar 6, 2004)

Oxymoron - PayPal Customer Service


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Omega - PayPal should investigate any member trying to close their account. I know eBay has buyer's protection policy, but they told me to resolve the problem with PayPal first.

Mnemia - That's what I was afraid of. I just want to know why everyone recommends using PayPal when shopping online!? That's the only reason I signed up for it.

gnatster - Is it really that bad?!


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## omega (Apr 1, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> Omega - PayPal should investigate any member trying to close their account. I know eBay has buyer's protection policy, but they told me to resolve the problem with PayPal first.


No account closing is necessary Raul. You can simply have the account open, but withdraw all the money from your PAYPAL ACCOUNT into your BANK ACCOUNT. A very simple process that requires a couple clicks of the mouse button. It appears that Paypal has no authority to forcibly extract money from your BANK ACCOUNT or CREDIT CARD to reimburse the victims. The ONLY way for them to reimburse is if the offending party has money in his/her PAYPAL ACCOUNT.

For example, you pay me. The money goes into my PAYPAL ACCOUNT. I then extract the money into my BANK ACCOUNT. You file suit. You win. Paypal can't do swat until I put money into the PAYPAL account. And why would I do that? It's far easier for me to close the account and sign up for a new one.

But in your case Raul, it looks like you can recover all your money since the transaction occured on ebay. If it had been on Aquabid or a forum, then you're out of luck. If Paypal doesn't reimburser you, then according to Buyer's Protection, ebay will reimburse you if found in your favor.



> Mnemia - That's what I was afraid of. I just want to know why everyone recommends using PayPal when shopping online!? That's the only reason I signed up for it.


It's the easiest and safest, despite all the possible ways people can screw you. Money orders? Your bank account can be cleaned out in one stroke through that scam. Cash? No way! I'm not sending cash through the mail. And when people sell perishable items, there isn't the luxury of waiting for the money to come before sending out the merchandise. Even if it's not perishable, it's a PITA of book-keeping to monitor incoming snail-mail payments. So what can you do?

Google is in the process of setting up someting similar but they keep denying that it's related to Paypal. That's too bad because Google does some good stuff. We'll see what it is once they decide to go public.


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## Mnemia (Nov 23, 2004)

How exactly can your bank account be "cleared out in one stroke" with a money order? The only times I've used them I went down to the post office and paid cash for them, so I obviously didn't give them any information on my bank account, much less the person I was sending it to. And you have to show ID to cash them, so there is some verification of identity taking place (people can always fake identification of course). If people's identity has to be verified, then it's harder for them to get away with scams because it's harder to do it without being caught. Plus I think fraud involving postal money orders is mail fraud and subject to harsh criminal penalties.

I do think you have a point about the need for speed in these transactions involving perishable items like plants, though. That IS a problem, although to a degree it can be solved using some planning.

In any case, I don't think something like Paypal is or should be the future of small transactions on the Internet. Disregarding that particular company (which is now owned by Ebay) and their own spotty reputation for customer service, the real problem is the risk and costs that any company doing these transactions has to bear due to the high amount of fraud and money laundering that will potentially go on. There needs to be an equivalent to "digital cash" which would provide actual transaction security (and maybe even anonymity) to online transactions without the need for high accompanying costs (credit cards) or long lag time (money orders). 

On the other hand, Paypal's security is essentially an illusion which depends entirely on the trustworthiness of the people you do business with, since they don't adequately verify the identity of their customers, don't properly investigate reports of fraud with due process, and don't follow good computer (and banking) security procedures, such as checking government-issued ID and carefully screening and monitoring their own employees to prevent internal theft. You will never be able to fully trust a stranger on the Internet, but you should be able to trust the banking system to be fair and impartial in governing your transactions. Paypal is neither fair nor trustworthy, and it's time they stopped being the defacto standard on the Internet. I'm actually suprised no one else has created a better successful system yet given Paypal's general crappiness.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

I've come up with a secure method, but sellers won't probably like it. Here it is: buyer sends money to PayPal, they keep the money on hold but inform the seller that the buyer had infact paid, and as soon as the buyer recieves the package he informs PayPal and they deposit the money in the seller's account. That's how it should be (or how I think it should be), but I don't think they'll consider it.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Sort of like the good old LOC or Letter of Credit: Bank informs supplier that the money is available and will be released as soon as the goods arrive at destination.


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## Mnemia (Nov 23, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> I've come up with a secure method, but sellers won't probably like it. Here it is: buyer sends money to PayPal, they keep the money on hold but inform the seller that the buyer had infact paid, and as soon as the buyer recieves the package he informs PayPal and they deposit the money in the seller's account. That's how it should be (or how I think it should be), but I don't think they'll consider it.


That's called an "escrow service", essentially. Escrow services have a third party that is trusted by both the buyer and seller hold the money until the terms of a contract (delivery of goods, in this case) are fulfilled. That way the seller knows before sending the goods that he will be paid, and the buyer can have escrow agent verify for example that the goods have been shipped or even their condition before the money is released to the seller. If the escrow agent does not act independently to protect both buyer and seller then he can be sued. This arrangment is commonly used for high-value transactions, for example real estate.

The problem is that at the present time it's too inconvenient, slow, and expensive for small transactions online. There are escrow services you can use for online auctions and such but most charge much more than Paypal, etc. This isn't too suprising considering that unlike Paypal they actually provide a service that requires their intervention and risk taking to cover their liability in the event of fraud on either the buyer or the seller's part. Paypal is cheap because they provide almost no customer service or investigation of fraud, and they take very little risk themselves since in most cases where fraud occurs they basically say it's not their problem and you should be more careful about who you do business with. It's a con artist or money launderer's dream.

I'm thinking more along the lines of an escrow service that is automated in some way to reduce costs and provide a middle ground between full third-party escrow and Paypal where neither side has any protection. Maybe it would be possible to use cryptographic techniques (like digital signatures and secret verification codes) to verify to a third-party system that an item has been shipped or paid for. I don't see any reason why that couldn't work, especially if it was integrated with UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc. Something automatically tied to the shippers for proof of shipment and receipt would be great, and even additional supporting evidence of condition could be attached like photographs.

Hmm, maybe I should start a company...


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