# [Wet Thumb Forum]-zero GH with ph of 7?



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

I have a well with a whole house water treatment system. The water treatment company is adding a Calcium/Magnesium mixture to the water which originally had an unreadable ph and GH (both turned after 1 drop). Now my water has a ph of 7.1, but my GH is back down to 0 again. 

Could someone tell me how it's possible for ph to be at these levels with a GH of 0 since I thought GH affects ph? (I get very confused with GH & KH even though theres plenty of info out there so please keep things simple. My KH=6.)

One another note, I bought some liquid Calcium by Kent Marine to bring up the GH. I add this along with Epsom Salts (@ 1 1/2 Tbs disolved in 300 ml water) to bring my GH to 6. In order for me to do this I must add 30ml of Liquid Ca & 8 ml of Mgso4 to bring 5 gal water to 6. This seems like alot of Ca though I don't know the concentration in the product. Can this lead to other problems because I've been noticing some changes in my tank which have made me question this?

Thanks, 
Lois


----------



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

I have a well with a whole house water treatment system. The water treatment company is adding a Calcium/Magnesium mixture to the water which originally had an unreadable ph and GH (both turned after 1 drop). Now my water has a ph of 7.1, but my GH is back down to 0 again. 

Could someone tell me how it's possible for ph to be at these levels with a GH of 0 since I thought GH affects ph? (I get very confused with GH & KH even though theres plenty of info out there so please keep things simple. My KH=6.)

One another note, I bought some liquid Calcium by Kent Marine to bring up the GH. I add this along with Epsom Salts (@ 1 1/2 Tbs disolved in 300 ml water) to bring my GH to 6. In order for me to do this I must add 30ml of Liquid Ca & 8 ml of Mgso4 to bring 5 gal water to 6. This seems like alot of Ca though I don't know the concentration in the product. Can this lead to other problems because I've been noticing some changes in my tank which have made me question this?

Thanks, 
Lois


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

GH is unrelated to pH. It's the KH that effects pH.

6 degrees GH will not cause problems unless it is all due to calcium or all due to magnesium. You are using a mixture, so it should be fine.


Roger Miller


----------



## MantisX (Sep 2, 2004)

Hi Lois. If your treatment system is like the one my parents bought, then it should be stripping calcium and magnesium from the water. Also if its using salts as the filter medium, it will raise your ph and kh to a neutral 7 and keep it there. So if its the same process, your water parameters should be ph 7 kh 7 gh 0. Also check your phosphates because I couldve sworn I came up with a reading of 1 in my water.

Hope this helps

Otis


----------



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Roger, you said:



> quote:
> 
> 6 degrees GH will not cause problems unless it is all due to calcium or all due to magnesium. You are using a mixture, so it should be fine.


The thing is I'm not sure what concentration Kent Marine's Liquid calcium is in. In order for me to reach 6 GH I had to dose 30ml of this product to 5 gal of well water along with 8 ml of epsom salts which I disolved @ 1 1/2 Tbs per 300 ml of water. I was hoping this might be close to a 4:1 ratio but am just guessing. It seems I have to add an awful lot to reach the desired hardness I'm looking for. Could Kents product have a much greater concentration than the Epsom salts I'm adding?

Since then my fish have seemed fine one minute then dart & thrash around the tank the next. Before, when I kept my GH at 3, I figured my plants were Ca deficient since they had very little to no roots and my Heatheranthera was scorched looking (probably because I was adding K with insufficient Ca). Now I'm just not sure what to do since the fish seem to be distressed but the plants seem better.

MantisX,
I don't think I have the same water treatment system as your parents since the company I'm dealing with said they were supposed to be adding a Calcium/magnesium type mixture to the water. I think they called it Calcitrite and Magnesium oxide if I'm not mistaken but don't take my word on it. Thats one of the reasons I'm so confused as to why my GH is unmeasurable if they're adding this to the water. I called the company today and someone was supposed to get back with me but never did.

Thanks for your input,
Lois


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

A GH of 6 is on the low side of moderate by most measures. There is no way that GH of 6 should be causing your fish distress.

I don't have a clue about the relative strengths of Kent calcium and your epson salt solution. If you want to get that under control you might consider getting some calcium chloride (some brands of sidewalk deicer) and mixing your own solution with the ratio you want.

The exact ratio is not important. As a very general guideline the calcium concentration should be higher than the magnesium concentration, but in nature the ratio is extremely variable. Plants are not adapted to live with a specific Ca:Mg ratio. It's mostly important that you should have both present.


Roger Miller


----------



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Roger,

Thanks for the info. One thing I'm just hesitant on is just mixing stuff up w/o knowing what amounts to use. I know that PMDD uses around 1 1/2 Tbs. of Epsom salt to 300 ml water which is where I got that from. But I'm feeling clueless about the Calcium. Is it ok just to check the GH and if it's in an acceptable range figure that calcium and magnesium are good enough? I thought that if I added enough, all my GH could come from only one of these ingredients. So, if I unknowingly added calcium and magnesium at 10:1, (or even greater ratio) that would be ok as long as calcium is higher than magnesium? 

Thanks,
Lois


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Lois,

10:1 would be a fairly extreme case, but it could work depending on other factors. GH always measures the sum of the hardness from calcium and magnesium.

You can get dosing instructions for epsom salt from Chuck Gadd's calculator at
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

I have given dosing instructions for calcium chloride on this forum several times now. Maybe the link here

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=8796060812&m=876106225

will be helpful.

Roger Miller


----------



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Roger,

Well I'm obviously either doing somthing wrong or just not getting this. I thought I could add calcium & magnesium until my GH raised to acceptable levels. In my case I tried for 6 because my fish were originally used to 3-4 and I didn't think raising it higher would be good. Do you think this was too much of a jump? 

Anyway, I did another water change after a week of seeing my discus acting abnormally. I wanted to make sure I had enough magnesium so I added that 1st until my GH raised 2 degrees. Then I added Calcium until it raised 5 degrees. This gave me a total hardness of 7 (a little over what I was shooting for but I thought 1 degree wouldn't hurt). 

After adding the water, my discus were definately worse. (Twirling around in circles, banging into the glass seeming to be in shock.) I called the lfs to ask for help and was told even though Kents Liquid Calcium is all Calcium Chloride with purified water, it was meant for marine fish and probably was too much for freshwater fish to handle. I tried to do another water change bringing the level back down but I lost one of my Pigeon Bloods anyway. One thing they did tell me is that there were other salts besides calcium and magneisum that Discus need in order to stay healthy and recommended another product by Kent called RO right. 

I'm getting so many conflicting stories as well. They same lfs told me I couldn't possibly have a KH of 7 if my GH was 0. The way I understood it is that GH measured Calcium & Magnesium (and some potassium as well?). KH measures Carbonate & nocarbonate hardness which buffers the water & maintains the Ph. I know this is a very limited understanding, but thats the best I can do.

Anyway, if theres anything you can tell me to help me save the other fish, I'd most appreciate it. Right now, the tank is down to 5 GH, and I thought of doing another water change tomorrow but am afraid of going too fast. I know I can't keep my fish in 0 GH the way it comes out of my tap. Is there any recommendation you can give me? I hope to get the RO right by Kent but don't want to make any more sudden changes.

Thanks for your help,
Lois


----------



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Hey,

This morning my remaining fish seem much better. I want to get some RO Right to supplement my water changes with the proper nutrients which my fish and plants need. Is anyone familiar with this product or know of a better one to use for water thats stripped of GH? So far I have plants w/little to no roots, snails with deteriorating shells, and struggles w/Cyano B. (which I think could be due to low GH & too much K?).

Thanks,
Lois

P.S. Don't forget to vote!


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Well I'm obviously either doing somthing wrong or just not getting this. I thought I could add calcium & magnesium until my GH raised to acceptable levels. In my case I tried for 6 because my fish were originally used to 3-4 and I didn't think raising it higher would be good. Do you think this was too much of a jump?


That is a good procedure. I would probably mix the chemicals outside the tank then add it to the tank water rather than adding things to the tank directly.



> quote:
> 
> I tried to do another water change bringing the level back down but I lost one of my Pigeon Bloods anyway.


I'm sorry about the fish, but I think you're concentrating on the wrong problem. Hardness at 6 or 7 degrees may not be ideal for discus but there is absolutely nothing toxic about it. If the water you're adding has anything to do with the odd behavior and death then it must be caused by something other than calcium or magnesium.

Someone at your LFS plainly does not know what they are talking about. You are probably better off not talking to them. Kent Calcium is intended mostly for reef tanks, but if you aren't dosing more than it takes to get 5 dGH then it can't be too much. There is also no reason why you can't have high KH and no GH. People with water softeners get that all the time. In some places the natural water supply is like that.

Is it possible that your water contains a dissinfectant that you aren't treating for? Could you have an electrical short through the tank? You need to look elsewhere for problems and solutions.

Roger Miller


----------



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Roger,

Thanks for your input. I thought my lfs were possibly giving out wrong info, at least about GH but wasn't sure about the Liquid Calcium because I couldn't find any other reason for the distress in my fish.



> quote:
> 
> Could you have an electrical short through the tank? You need to look elsewhere for problems and solutions.


I considered the possibility of an electrical short and other probs related to water chemistry but ruled out every thing I knew of. The most obvious is the fact that I have 2 tanks. One tank didn't show the fish distress as quickly, but ended up being the tank where I lost my Discus. This tank wasn't originally given as much Calcium because I didn't have plants in it. It was more or less a temporary tank which I used either for hospital treatment or in this particular case where I wanted to seperate 2 fish that were fighting.

I began noticing a little distress with this particular fish right before the water change. When I added the replacement water with the higher GH there was an immediate change in the fish where he darted and spun around like he was chasing his tail. His breathing was fast and he seemed to be unabe to keep upright properly. This is the way he stayed until he died.

In the larger tank these fish had moments like this but were able to come out of it. It seemed more like seisures with them.

For the water change, both tanks had the same replacement water because I mixed them in the same container. The only difference is there was a greater water change for the small tank then the large.



> quote:
> 
> Is it possible that your water contains a dissinfectant that you aren't treating for?


I never considered a disinfectant being something used in the water treatment system. Would you know of any that companies would use that may cause problems such as this? They never made me aware of any but I'll try and ask them next chance I get. If so what would I do to get rid of or treat for it?

Thanks,
Lois


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I never considered a disinfectant being something used in the water treatment system. Would you know of any that companies would use that may cause problems such as this? They never made me aware of any but I'll try and ask them next chance I get. If so what would I do to get rid of or treat for it?


You will need to talk to the company about that. There are disinfectants that can be added to on-site systems and disinfecting filters that can be used in those systems.

There may also be other effects from the water treatment. Only your water system supplier can say for sure.

Roger Miller


----------

