# Substrate Confusion



## BJRuttenberg (Sep 25, 2005)

Im totally lost in the whole substrate thing...I was reading an interview on Aquabotanic with a seachem rep and they were saying that all Flourite really does is provide a consistant supply of Iron to plants. I know Iron is nessay for plants but is it sufficient in and of itslef. It is my understanding that eco-complete provides myriad nutrients (including iron) to the plants in a tank. So how is it that both eco-complete and flourite are considered the top two substrates on the US market when it seems that (other than the obvious reasons such as the bacteria and lack of pre-rinse) eco-complete is so much more superior??? Exactly _how_ important is iron in the diet of plants??? Pleases explain...


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I'm not very knowledgeable about the science behind it all, but I can tell you that plants lacking iron are less lush and often times exhibit yellowing and dying of older leaves.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I do not think plants do much different in EC vs Flourite if you set them up properly.

While EC might claim it supplies more, the reality seems to indicate otherwise.

The ADA aqua soil substrate is much much better than either in terms of significant growth differences if you look at the nutrients in the substrate alone.

Soil grows plants well also, but has many trade offs that ADA AS does not.
I've done 12 tanks with ADA AS, I lost count how many with Flourite(30-50?), 3 with EC. 

You can grow any plant in inert substrates, but they will do better in ADA AS.

ADG sells it on line.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> You can grow any plant in inert substrates, but they will do better in ADA AS.


That's just not the case. Do you own a bunch of stock in ADA or what?


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## PlantsGlora (Apr 22, 2006)

Iron is extremely important, especially added to the water column. My plants exhibit grow of 2" a week without ada soil.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Cavan,

Maybe Jeff and Mike Senske, Oliver Knott, and myself are wrong and you are right?

We have many years of experience using *both(many) types of substrates*, to my knowledge and based on your own admission here on APC, *you have not not used ADA substrates*.

I have no stock in ADA, I disagree often with Amano and have haggled with Jeff over these issues. Email either of them. That is common knowledge nor is it a personal issue, it's about the plants. I did not want to accept openly what they were saying, I was very skeptical (again, no secret), I'd tried once before in 1998, but did not give it a fair chance(several folks talked me into it) nor knew what to look for in it's qualities. It was too light weight for my personal taste then. But I actually try the stuff and think about the pluses and minuses and the trades offs.

I am supportive of the product because it *works*.
You suggest I am supportive for less than this reason alone.

I recently stopped fertilizing my 20 gal, the growth slowed down, but no issues with algae(some green spot on the glass) appeared after a week, in the flourite tank: algae, poor plant growth more green algae.
2 weeks in, the flourite tank is shot(ball of green hair algae). The ADA tank? needs pruned badly, but less algae than the first week and plants are not stunted, they are not growing fast, look pretty red, are limited, but not stunted.

I also have seen in client tanks: very large differences.
This is where it makes a difference for many folks. 
Many folks are not going to tend the tanks as much as folks do the weeks leading up to a contest or photo shoot. Everyone slacks off. 
This really helps a newbie and you do not need to wash the stuff, it'll never scratch the glass when cleaning also and is cost equilivalent to Flourite and cheaper than EC.

ADA substrates let you neglect the tank in the peroids where you slack off. Having nutrients in both locations(water column and the substrate) is a wise notion. It also has NH4 occluded.
This provides more wiggle room in any routine.

Folks said this same crap about me when I suggested Flourite(where was this same resolve about this same subject when you brought your Flourite?). Or any brand name product, even though I know soil and plain sand works well too.

I'm also barbarically skeptical, more so than about anyone on these boards. But I weight both sides and look at the trade offs.

I can grow the same plants fair well in Flourite too.
Or sand and soil(why aren't you arguing for that method?).

But over all, with the trade offs and ease of use, there's nothing better out there. Some plants do dramatically better with no difference in care. Maybe Jeff and myself do not know what we are talking about and are blind......

Crypts, some of the rarer ones that normally hate being submersed I've been playing with, these did okay in some flourite tanks, but never really thrived. Some species are doing extremely well, these are plants I've kept over the years for for 25+ years now.

Certain plants maybe be better suited to richer substrates and high water column nutrient levels. Some plant species it really does not matter until you start neglecting the tank.

This is a link to the free side on my site that discusses some of the root vs shoot uptake growth issues, but it's only for several species, with some 300 species out there, some likely will do better with a supply of NH4 and the best place for that is occluded in clay or bound somehow.

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2119

Now if you where interested in debating this, you'd bring up papers such as these to defend your position. I've posted these in the past to defend the water column fertilization. I know the limitations of water column fertilization is it's purest form, I kept 200 species of plants for a deacde using RFUG's and nothing in the substrate. I got pretty good at the water column as a result.

I know both sides of this debate and it's not a new debate.

Many plants species will likely do equally well if the water column is maintained, but like I said, we all slack off, take vacations etc. The ADA substrates work great then. It also looks very nice and have an ideal grain size. Some plants species clearly do better with little if any coddling.
Also works very well in non CO2 tanks(as does soil).

I think too many folks believe zealotry on one side or the other(water column or the sediment) of where the ferts should come from. The reality is that all plants (with roots) get them from both locations at least in part or all, only when we lop off the roots, or use recirculating RO water for the water column can you isolate these uptake organs. So the best approach for a newbie or an advanced person is to try to add nutrients in both locations and allow the plants make their choice.

This provides the best of both worlds and the ADA substrate does the trick there. I've always held under certain conditions, sediment ferts are good as back up or in some cases with plant species preferences, this goes back to APD discussions. But many sediment proponents like to claim that excess PO4 or NO3 or Fe causes algae, which is baloney.

So I get arguements from both sides.
Nothing is so black and white.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

:deadhorse

How long did it take you to write that? It's interesting that you referenced the free side of your pay site this time instead of posting a teaser and not really answering someone's question.

I never said Aquasoil doesn't work. For some people and situations, it works.

My point, for about the 50th time, is that *I and a lot of other people have been perfectly successful growing all kinds of things without Aquasoil*. Do you not believe me? Some of the best *Tonina *(not Tonia) I've ever seen was grown in a mixture of Flourite and plain old gravel.

I don't live in a bubble. I have friends that have Aquasoil in their tanks. I trade plants with them. Their plants do just fine in my tanks, and mine do just fine in theirs. It's that simple.


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## BJRuttenberg (Sep 25, 2005)

Tom, Thanks for your input. 

As a beginner, Im looking for anything and everything to decrease the margin of error in keeping my tank healthy. Also, Im a student and my schedule is such that I never know when I will have time to tend my tank.

Finally, Im assuming you are talking about regular aquasoil and not the powersand...


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Next question.... How long can one expect any of the original "nutrients" in either eco complete or the ADA soils to last. At some point, the easily soluble nutrients will be gone, leaving relatively inert substrate behind. You might still have a favorable bed for cation exchange chemistry, but many substrates do this well.

Specifically, how long will the ADA soils make NH4 available to the plants? Is the effect gone after a month? 6 months? 2 years? Anyone have experience with this?


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