# No experience planted tank



## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

So I have been reading this site and others for a few months now, I picked up the walstad's book and love the idea. I am a diver but with new kids can't dive as easy right now. So thought why not put a fish tank in the house. 

I have never kept a fish tank, too much work and I didn't care to when I dive in puget sound.. It's a big fish tank. So zero experience .. Just a lot of reading and normally good luck with odd hobbies.

I picked up a 90gallon tank from a friend who was moving, along with a canister filter. I have another friend who turned me on to the idea so I have some local experienced help. 

I got new media with the filter and put that in - as I had to clean the tank from previous lazy owner I won't have water in it for a month or so. Wife also wants to paint the room, I suggest it done before this mess of a tank. 

So I have a clean used tank, a clean filter with no carbon, I picked up a log and went and got some nice rocks from a local river cleaned then up. Have some black sand to top off some mud with. 

I plan to now go get some "cheap as dirt, dirt" mix in some kitty litter and a bag of the Great Barrier Reef for calcium and some chemistry. Then make some mud pie with it and dry it out so it's not a mess when I haul it in the house. 

After that I will likely have saved up for the trick planted plus LED light, seeing as it has 1) power savings 2) cool blue disco lights for my fish to dance with. 

Then after that I can fuss around with making a fishy house out of the random debris that I put in there, logs and rocks. By this time I should be able to hide enough money from my wife to get massive amounts of plants .. Stuff 2-3 of everything in there that is green Or might be green. Add some water and see if it's cool, and if putting 90gallons in my house is smart. 

Check my chemistry again, by this time I should have a large waste of cash, a lot of mud in my house.. Or stuff growing and cycling some cooties. If i can I am going to transport some stinky water from my friends house, sort of like friendship bread ... And his yeast can be my yeast. 

Then once the chemical warfare has calmed down, I would like to fauna it up with some cozy critters like... Snails, shrimp, guppies, and wait for it.. A frog, dog. I understand I might have created a food chain here where the little one eats the big one.. I have seen people post mixed results. But hey ... It's for the kids. Kids like frogs. 

So that is my story so far, I will document the mess I go along, for advice from pros, and musings for all.

Kelly


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

Sounds like you've done your research. Are you looking at a particular kind of frog? I'd imagine you can get away with those fauna and dwarf african frogs without much trouble, except making sure they get fed...

As for buying the plants, I'd check out sale forums such as the one here, or especially the one on www.plantedtank.net, for plant packages, as that seems like a pretty cheap way to go for a lot of plants at once. Also, if there are any fish auctions near you, a good place for cheap plants...


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

African dwarf frog, I was planning to put black worms in the tank for frogs, and likely guppies (eventually an auto feeder for the fish).. question on this.. will the black worms get in the substrate - and will they live there happy? will the frog locate them? will the frog learn to dig and then make a mess, or should I just use those frozen worm blocks. haven't done frog-research a lot yet.

then the plants will be all the "easy cheap stuff" that is suggested from the LFS who specializes in plant tanks. that is shown to grow good in the water around these hear parts.

I like the frogbit for surface, but it means pulling it out when it starts to get crazy I think.
then the usual ferns and floaters. I would like a moss ball because they look funny, rolling stone gathering moss idea.

I plan to aquascape all high plants in the back and shorter plants up front as best as I can, from my readings its best if I just jam 100 plants in there if it grows cool, if not, snip and toss. Rather then mess with the tank trying to re-plant or scape after the setup (at least in the first 3 months) I plan to only add snails and shrimp after a week of calm sailing.. 

I also am on the hunt for something fun to hide in there like a shipwreck.. remember kids.. if I can find a appropriate sized something to hide in the plants then its not a gold fish bowl and still fun to "find the treasure"

got a 250w heater today, I had a hand me down inline heater but it wont power up, I am debating putting a 2nd heater unit in the tank as my house is normally 55-65 in the winter. I would then build an arduino tank monitor so that it will kill the power and email if the heat or water has problems.. that's my nerd influence..

ordered some random test chemicals today I didnt own, and some new hose to get the filter set up due to the dead inline heater.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I would scrape the black worms idea. I used to bring them into my store for feeding the fish as well as selling and when they go sour they can really smell up the place. I visited the local farm that raises them and believe me you would not want to work there if you had any sense of smell.

I;m not crazy about your frog idea either. Frogs come in two forms either heavy plant eaters or very carnivorous. I have seen frogs kill fish roughly there size. 

With a 90 gallon tank I'd personally look at either larger fish or fish that will form larger schools. Small fish will have a tendency of getting lost in that big tank. I have seen some fantastic looking South American tanks done with angel fish, and cardinals as well as discus.

Rather than getting water from your neighbor or the grocery store for a 90 gallon tank I'd consider getting a Reverse Osmosis system.

For LED lighting forget the disco effect you will think it is cool the first couple weeks then wonder why you wasted your money on it. You can build a nice LED system though for a fraction of the cost of most commercial LED fixtures.

Just some thoughts to play around with in your mind. Everyone has there own preferences likes and dislikes but it never hurts to think about other options.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks for the input on the worms there, I was slightly worried that would be the case.. just figured the kid would like a frog. but a larger animal requires more logistics. ahh well.

I will likely look at small - schooling fish not a huge big fish in the tank fan. shrimp will be running the show here.

when I mentioned the neighbor water, it was primarily for a culture starter. as I have no other tanks.. and since I need to transport some stuff from his place anyway, figured do it in 5gallon bucket!

I was kidding about the blue, but those Finnex Fuge Ray Planted Plus lights are very affordable priced, i truly doubt I could make something for much of a price difference. 30-50 difference max I would assume. my only LED building is in underwater dive lights which is a totally different game but still takes a little to get it going, I do need the wife decorating approval so cant use a shop light fixture with wires running all over.

thanks again. poor kids and the frog..  I could get one of those old school ones with a bubble that flaps up and down!


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm having a hard time finding any reference of African dwarf frogs eating fish... The only places I can find it is where people that haven't actually had them are concerned that frogs in general are dangerous with fish... And they are carnivorous, but also slow and nearly blind, making it hard for them to catch anything. And with shrimp and guppies being so prolific, it would probably be a boon to you if they did catch a fry once in a while! I also can't find any experiences people have had with them digging up plants or anything...

Again, the concern would be feeding them, as the fish would find the food faster than them, so they might starve, especially in such a big tank... You could feed them with a pipette directly, but you'd have to find them first, lol. Or if you had blackworms established in the substrate they could munch on those when they find them. Although the guppies would eat them out of the substrated as well, so between the fish and frogs, they might eat them all...

As for blackworms in the substrate, I've never had a problem with them fouling up the water. I have tried to establish them in all my tanks, most of which they get eaten before they get a chance... But in the few that they have been able to take a foothold, they cause no problems and are a nice snack for the fish that comes across them. They also keep the substrate aerated and healthy.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Yes Guppies are prolific breeders. An average pair will have about 30 fry every month. But they are also prolific at eating there fry unless you have a tank with loads of hiding places for guppies. Interestingly they are also a South American Fish even though they are more common in central America so they could be combined in a regional bio type. 

The African Frogs are basically from Africa. Most African fish like much harder water than we like in planted tanks. As far as there appetite for fish I can only report to you what my customers said about them. Roughly 2/3 of them claimed they ate their fish and would never buy them again. I personalty only kept them in a small 20 gallon tank by themselves. 

If you go with a African Biotype tank and keep the water soft and slightly n the acidic side pH 6.5 There are several lake Tanganyika fish as well as river fish from Africa that love the softer water. So it is possible to do an African tank. There are also some fantastic African plants you could use. 

I love the the idea of doing regional bio type tanks mainly because your selections will then fall into similar water quality requirements making things much easier. Having dealt with the public often blinding vy looks rather anything else I hated when someone came in complaining why is fish A thriving in my tank and fish B looks like its dying. And it turns out there requirements to keep them are almost the complete opposite.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

ok so possible frog back on the table.. little time before I can add him anyway.

right now the heater and the filter pump are cycling for a "test run" in a 5gallon bucket for a few days to make sure no premature failure of systems.

this weekend, here in seattle we have the big "will we be in the superbowl" game so likely more of that and less of dirt, work.. but I am going to try and buy dirt and put water on it.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Spudgunman you still have a chance at the Super Bowl did you order the tickets for the family yet? Prices will go up Sunday night. I think if we did not loose so many Offensive players the last few weeks we would have made it against SF in the wild card game.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

haha no I cant afford tickets.. I got kids .. my wife would kill me if I suggested I buy tickets to go to the game.. tickets for this weekends game are in the $2500 a pair range. 


So I got some cheaper then dirt, dirt today lows $2.30 a cu ft. I got 3 bags because I had a $10 bill on me. I had money left over for a candy bar.. it was hard work hauling them bags around.. 

Its been a while since I purchased a bag of dirt (typically just load the truck up) bags of dirt are messy you cut them open and the bag holds its shape but now you have dirt on the floor. 

I found a 18g rubbermaid .. put 2cu/ft in the tub .. it was heavy and a dumb idea. oh well.

Put this into my guest bathroom (sorry wife) filled it up with water. sloshed it around, played in the mud for about 10 min it was sort of fun.

As mentioned everywhere.. 80% of the dirt mass floats.. as its ... all bark
I have about 1" of sand at the bottom, as well as rocks. lots of rocks. oh yea found a wire.. and a small bit of glass. what can you say cheap dirt, remember that next time you toss trash into your yard waste bin.

side note.. the factory that process's all dirt in bags is about 5 miles from my house so that is cool, but they only give you yards there.. and well I dont need yards right now. looking back I should have just used dirt out of my garden there is less bark but whatever.. I made this mess for now.. i will leave it for 2-3 days and skim the bark then add more "soil" fun mess but waste of time really as the bark to soil content would take 5-10 bags to just get "dirt" that I could quickly take for free.

So here I am with about 6inches of floating bark, funny how everyone says "fill the Rubbermaid 2" over the dirt level" well thats impossible as the dirt floats. then if you stir it up it floats more.

So then after reading one of D.W. comments how she wanted to use kitchen pans to "sink the soil" I couldnt do this after the disaster I had in the guest shower.. so I ran out and I had a huge chunk of slate that was the same size as the Rubbermaid. ploped that on top and BOOM. all my bark sank 

that is...

untill the bark snuk around the slate untill there wasnt enough to keep the slate floating and I hear a Thud! 

I figured I will just leave it for now.

So I have 2cd/ft of cheap dirt, sitting with a hunk of slate, in 15 gallons of water, in my guest shower. 

Will update in 24 hours or so..

oh yea.. why did I do this in the shower? I was thinking like bacteria, well if I was bacteria. .its 34f outside right now.. that slows down stuff.. so figured that the bathroom was better then outside temperature. that is.. until I go to remove this mess.

I would have added my first photo here.. but its just a photo of my guest bath with mud in it.. don't need to use much imagination here.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

We would love to see the mess you have done in a photo. Hope your wife won't be nagging you about it ray:

I am sure you'd need the candy bar after dragging those bags of dirt. Looks like you are having a lot of fun there.

I love playing with mud myself. Due to the fact that I am living in an apartment, cleaning up the dirt always took place in my bathroom too as I don't have any other option. Just make sure you clean up the mess before the "authority" (wife) bans you from this hobby entirely.  Good luck!


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

well I also just found out this forum isn't allowing upload of images.. so likely this wont go far.. I don't care to mess around with a image hosting site.

I will likely toss out this mess today, and just use garden soil that is from my compost. This mess is a joke. its 80% bark and not worth putting underwater in a fish tank. 

BTW the bag ingredients are "composted forest products" - I would almost say that "top soil" isnt worth the effort, but "fill dirt" would likely be if you buying bagged products.

later this afternoon I will to the conversion to garden soil with no bark.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

To me there is point where trying to save a dollar or two on things like substrate turns into a negative return. Through the many years of trying to save a dollar I have attempted many substrate mixes. At least 70% of them turned out to be disaster either initially or after a few months. Do you know what is the that commercial dirt? 

Some definite no no's I have tried mixing into my substrate that were complete flops were sheep manure, fertilized potting top soil, cow manure after baking it just to name some of the worst. But I will also say some of the better none commercial ones were red potters clay.

Yes they do rip you off when you buy some of the commercial substrate mixes if you look at what your getting and what your paying for it. But there are also loads of advantages like you know exactly what is in it as far as the vitamins and minerals that the plant need and that those that could kill your fish. Then there is the other advantage of being able to put it into the tank followed with a thin layer of the gravel of your choice and finally slowly add water. How much is that convince worth to someone compared to messes like that. What value do you put on your man hours spent a mess like this.

In the past I have tried several commercial substrates. I liked Duplas the best but I do not know if they are still around as I can no longer find much on them. Tetra and Sea Chem also made good substrates. Not sure on present pricing but about 10 years ago $15.00 of Seachems substrate or Tetra's Laterlite substrate mixed with $5.00 of fine red flint gravel would be more than enough for your tank. Ad inflation and it would be probably $25 to $30 today. Is the cost difference worth the frustration you had? And how about the peice of mind that you know your not putting something in the tank that could haunt you several months from now?

Note I was bale to edit this 11 hours after posting it.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I dont know if trying to save a dolla is the goal here - I dont see any reason why I need to buy some goofy dirt. I get it not playa hatin on people who have had great experience with some super dirt. but I was inspired by the book to plant a simple tank with nothing special. no chems or fussing about with weekly water changes. simple light source - done.

as I mentioned in post 1 - I have never wanted to start a fish tank due to the complexity and time that I dont have. I do enjoy drinking a beer and watching shrimp. (diver in me)

.. also whats up with not being able to edit my original post, I would have liked to keep a running list of "things learned" in this process on the first post, but now just keep posting a long long thread, the read count is going up so I figure my documentation of process here is watched.


- So status update, buying "cheap dirt" is a waste of time in the seattle area. one manufacture supplies about 4 different "brands" that are re-packaged by various people. as I mentioned its miles from my house - they are the people recycling all the yard waste. 

-Looking at specialty planting stores for "soil" returned basically i am buying the community compost. 

that said I wasn't going to pay for dirt. My compost is adequate. I went into the bathroom (by now my wife had a few words with me) I made up some excuses about bacteria, we are good for now (thankfully no holiday soon where people want to come visit and shower)

I went and felt around in my bark pool, this time with gloves I was rather itchy after last nights adventures. I was happy to find that I had about 1" of sand and 1" of fine dirt and some "neutrally buoyant" bark oh yea and 4" of floating.

I removed all the floating bark as it wasn't helping at all about 4gallons of it I then put outside in water, I will go back and grab any waterlogged stuff that sinks later in this adventure.

I then went to the compost and took 5gallons of soil from the middle of it, took out any worms I found and took a mole hill that was newly formed as well, had some red soil. 

I then put the soil into my existing bucket of mud mixed it up and will now check back in 24 hours, I now have a very thick slurry with about 2" of water and about a half inch of bark that is refusing to leave. 

I am much happier with this product as it will prove to make a larger volume of quality substrate. I think after taking the rocks introduced by the commercial product I might need to run a double batch of this to make 1" of soil in the 90gal - all my other Rubbermaid containers have had motor oil in them (dont you keep oil in rubber maids around the house?)


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes, you must be willing to face challenges when dealing with NPT method. It's frustrating sometimes when things go wrong but some people treat it as part of the fun. I guess that is up to individual. One thing for sure is it's the satisfaction of success - you feel the ownership of success since it's DIY.

To avoid going through the mess and hassle of experimenting the soil, I use ADA Amazonia most of the time. Sometimes commercial aquarium soil does not men zero headache too. I had a big headache dealing with ADA Malaya - I got algae all over the tank which ADA Amazonia didn't give me such issue (or rather it's controllable). In the U.S., Eco-Complete seems to be another popular product which is unavailable in my country. I had seen Seachem Flourite undergoing massive algae attack in a demo tank at an LFS - so I am a bit reluctant to try that product myself.

I would say choosing the right/wrong soil is a big step into a successful/failure. Prior to the days of internet, I think many of us struggled for years with no result - including myself. Maybe someone in Seattle could lead you to the correct soil to use for NPT. Sometimes it's easier to use the soil which is proven to be working. I was lucky to find the suitable soil but sometimes it ran out of stock for months forcing you to try something else or the new batch's quality is inconsistent from the first batch you purchase.

By the way, I have no problem editing my post over and over...I have just done it. Just click "Edit", add your text, then click "Save" button.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

so pulled out the rest of the floating bark today (another inch) this totaled a solid 5 gallons of bark, threw all that into the compost there is no value to the fish tank there.

I then pulled out all the water carefully, this was a mess.. I couldnt find anything to siphon well (chunks of dirt) so I ended up taking a butter tub I had about and sinking it to the water line.. this way minimal amounts of particulate came in and I could quickly dump the water.

the weight of the wet dirt was too much to carry, so with as much care as possible I loaded the muck into 5 gallon buckets.. I had 10 gallons of mud total.

I was very happy with the product I have created. i did stick my hand into it and clearly felt a layer of fine material and deeper I went I found heavier material. there is about 5% bark or "heavy organic" and at the bottom is heavy concrete! (rocks and sand) haha. 

this pleases me greatly, its best described as the "lake bottom" around these parts.. I dive a lot, and the quality and consistency is exactly what all lakes in these areas looks and feels like. so I am very pleased with my results. 

I spread the mud on a tarp .. not like it will do much .. my largest challenge is going to be keeping it from molding - we are in the lower 30s at night so I worry about that for "good bacteria" but whatever bacteria will be there all the same.. I can be sure my dirt will never dry however.. just not possible this time of year in the seattle area. 

So I put it in a place that will get good air flow, and on a slope so that as much drainage as I can hope for will happen naturally. I will report in on that later.

I left the concrete matter in the bucket for now. I plan to wash it out when I next wash the soil. screening it back into the bucket to keep as much material of good nature in the product. I need to locate some chicken screen - I know I have some but lost it.. and for now its rock solid and cold out.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Was this your project before the Sea Hawks won or after?

I'm still leary of this approach. I can see your frogs constantly stirring up that loose fine dirt.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I will have a sand top layer about 1" deep or thereabouts..


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## grin (Dec 22, 2013)

Spudgunman said:


> well I also just found out this forum isn't allowing upload of images.. so likely this wont go far.. I don't care to mess around with a image hosting site.


You can attach a photo to the post. Use the advanced reply and scroll towards the bottom and click manage attachments.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Ohh nice thank you, been using tap talk so will switch to a real PC - no news for a while just letting dirt dry for a week or so.. Will resume updates when activity again.. And get to a PC to photo bomb this thread. Also to note I found yesterday frogs might not do well in a 90g tank.. They get lost looking for the surface or something. Very odd as it seems strange to me they wouldn't find themselves in 2 feet of water in nature.. So frogs are on pause. Don't need any dead frogs, there isn't enough meat there to eat.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I think we, Asians, find it funny that Westerners keep frogs as pets. At the place we live, frogs are all over the places i.e drainage, ponds, rivers and anywhere you can find stagnant water. Well, actually there is a species of frogs that we keep but they're meant for food. Yes, they taste like chicken but I don't like the way they are being slaughtered (the method of slaughtering is very cruel - I was shock when I saw it for the first time...the lady skinned the frogs when they were alive, then chopped off the legs) 

To be honest, I tried to keep frogs as pets too when I was a boy (maybe I was mentally a Westerner..haha) but I often find them going missing after a while. I had free tadpoles at the drain right in front of my house those days. Keeping tadpoles would freak out my mother especially one morning when she woke up finding frogs jumping all over the house 

Sorry, I could not help myself from sharing the frog tales...lol

I think it's better for you to stick to fishes. At least you won't freak out any ladies in the house when you find the frogs go missing


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

You can attach photos with Tapatalk. If you're using the latest version of TT, press the plus sign next to the quick reply. That will take you to where you can post and attach a pic. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

I have three ADF's in my 10 gallon natural tank. They well eat anything you feed the fish. They don't eat fish. They sing and I really enjoy that at night. I feed a variety of foods so that all fish get something they like. 
Blood-worms, tub-worms, flake food, gel food, algae wafers..... Plants love it and so do the fish.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

totziens said:


> I think we, Asians, find it funny that Westerners keep frogs as pets. At the place we live, frogs are all over the places i.e drainage, ponds, rivers and anywhere you can find stagnant water. Well, actually there is a species of frogs that we keep but they're meant for food. Yes, they taste like chicken but I don't like the way they are being slaughtered (the method of slaughtering is very cruel - I was shock when I saw it for the first time...the lady skinned the frogs when they were alive, then chopped off the legs)
> 
> To be honest, I tried to keep frogs as pets too when I was a boy (maybe I was mentally a Westerner..haha) but I often find them going missing after a while. I had free tadpoles at the drain right in front of my house those days. Keeping tadpoles would freak out my mother especially one morning when she woke up finding frogs jumping all over the house
> 
> ...


I have a Koi pond outside. And yeas come sporing I always see hundreds of tad poles,. Then by August neighbors complain about the croaking sounds all night long.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I used to hate those noise when I stayed in rural area when I was a kid. Funnily I miss it after staying in the city for decades. 

Since we are discussing about frogs, today I read about this article about the world's most beautiful sound belonging to frogs in Malaysia 

Here's the URL:
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...utiful-sound-belongs-to...-a-frog-in-malaysia

You may listen to it here:
http://www.beautifulnow.is/sound

Have fun


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

totziens said:


> I used to hate those noise when I stayed in rural area when I was a kid. Funnily I miss it after staying in the city for decades.


Sorry I grew up in the city. Would you really prefer the police sirens, and trafic sounds to that of the croaking frogs, and howling coyotes at night?


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Nah....I hate sirens....I hear sirens very often too as there's a hospital and a few police stations nearby.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Status update : dirt still drying its messy wife wanted to paint before I continue so that is done - might add dirt this weekend and plan rocks and logs..
I got the tank in, lights, heater, and filter all set up..


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Dirt is in - don't know what I was thinking with so much dirt about 4.5 gallons filled the tank to 1" depth. I also am going to run a fan on it all night.. It's hopeless to try and dry out dirt this time of year in Seattle. I just used the top soil. So there is no sand or rocks right now. I don't know yet if I will mix some sand back in, there wouldn't be much in potting soil anyway. 

After the dirt airs out and let's some bacteria chomp I am going to mix in a little clay. flood the dirt with a little excess water and then let it settle and clear siphon off the excess water check my chemistry for one last cleaning, then will get plants in this weekend.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

well lots of progress today. 

Soil was dry enough to mix it up with some clay and coral. about 1lb of each into the soil.
Then I made a nice boarder with my topping substrate and flooded the tank.

90 gallons of water in the tank with the heater and pump running .. going to leave it for 24 hours and check the water chemistry.

Then pull out all but about 5gallons and start planting. 

images attached. The rocks in the soil are sitting on sand not dirt - they are to place the larger stones and driftwood on so they dont cause issues in the soil.. additionally the larger red stone is used for filling the tank (keeping dirt down)

I have very nice water flow all the junk in the water helps visualize that! I am using the glass to help create a full current in the system right now.

to be expected the following clean results, higher ph then my tap by a little.. assume because of the added coral.

temp 51f
GH~3
KH ~5
ph ~7.6-8?
Am/Nits=0


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

well tank is sitting 4 days on now.. I think all the earthworms have died and floated up, tank is super milky cloudy (likely due to clay or something about ions and electrons and magnetos and the x-men) 
all the dirt appears out of the water column.

I put a lonely little plant in the tank to see if it dies. run the lights all night. I shut the filter off so it has a chance to decloud.

mostly just waiting for a big plant purchase now before I drain and plant.

some lessons learned so far
-I should fill the tank with warm water, not cold water.. helps bring to temp faster.
-I put the aquarium stand on the carpet nail board, so its not level, will fix that in the empty time
-a 90g tank is deep, keep a towel near to dry off all the water on your arm when you reach down.

otherwise the tank look like its good and stable, aside from the cloud, but that as I understand is unavoidable in my current condition of ..nothing but dirt in a tank.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

One thing I used to tell customers is do not buy a tank that you cannot reach over the front of the glass and touch the back bottom of the tank. Believe me I had a women about 4'1-" tall buy a 110 gallon tall tank 30" tall 18" deep and warned her. She would need a 35" arm to reach that back corner. A month later she cam back and wanted me to give her full credit for the tank in exchange for a new 75 gallon tank. When I asked her why she said no one in your could could reach the back of the tank.

As far as the cloudiness I learned the trick there years ago. 
1. Make sure the clay layer has enough fine gravel over it to seal it. 
2. Then when your adding water put a floating object in the tank like a board and slowly pour the water onto the floating object so there is close to zero tolerance.

Sometimes when planting some of the cloudiness is unavoidable. What does wonder is a Diatom cartridge for your canister filter. When I had the store I ran a diatom filter for 1 hour on every one of the tank daily so the water was crystal clear.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks for the floating tip, that will be handy. Yea right now it's just dirt, I didn't want to top it until I get the plant order in.

Well a water change and being lazy is paying off - it's clearing up.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Update my little lonely plant has lots of new leaflets growing. My log has white hair algae growing. Tank has a nice bloom, so it supports life. Still saving for a plant order - another hobby ate up my cash. So a tank with one plant and a log with ick. Will sit.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Lotta views not much interaction - this thread enjoyable or just another same old?

Update the plant order I had placed got lost due to someone getting sick - who knows not in a rush.

The tank is doing well with nothing but mud one plant and a log - log still covered in slime plants showing lots of rapid growth.

The lights are on for 7-12 hours some times 3-rest-6 I am lazy but I building a fancy light controller.

Also I had quite a bio-cap at the surface - turned on the filter low power and it's all gone now.


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

Spudgunman said:


> Lotta views not much interaction - this thread enjoyable or just another same old?


Can't speak for everyone, but I enjoy watching the process of new tanks being set up. Gives me ideas and stuff. If I have a question or concern, I try to speak up, but otherwise just sit back and enjoy the show.

I think you're off to a pretty good start for your first tank, rather than so many that have no clue what they're doing at first and kill all their plants and fish until they figure it out.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

On a firrst tank I'd go much simpler than your going with known no hastle methods. It may cost a little more using commercial substrate but it would give you more assurance of initial success without as many initial issues that could discourage you. Then on future builds I'd make little changes one at a time till I hit the combination I wanted. 

I do see two issues remaining. Your fuzzy growth on the logs and looking at the picture it still is not crystal clear with small particles on the surface of everything. 

A light siphoning should help. the stuff on the bottom. But what is on your logs could be any of several things which I'm not completely sure how to safely get rid of.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

is there a cap on top of the dirt??


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

TropTrea said:


> On a firrst tank I'd go much simpler than your going with known no hastle methods. It may cost a little more using commercial substrate but it would give you more assurance of initial success without as many initial issues that could discourage you. Then on future builds I'd make little changes one at a time till I hit the combination I wanted.
> 
> I do see two issues remaining. Your fuzzy growth on the logs and looking at the picture it still is not crystal clear with small particles on the surface of everything.
> 
> A light siphoning should help. the stuff on the bottom. But what is on your logs could be any of several things which I'm not completely sure how to safely get rid of.


Thanks for the feedback!
I don't know how I could get much simpler, (unless your referring to not using a dirt tank) I see this as very simple. Dirt sand plants few fish easy light. No fuss no muss! I also define "simple" as "cheap" 

I am no so discouraged - from my reading, most people mess up because they want a particular fish or plant that is "cool" I have no idea what a cool plant or fish is. I want shrimp and something green. So a bunch of weed java fern - it's ok for me, low light PH and other requirements. I have zero expectations of this experiment as well. If I loose $100 in plants and $50 in shrimp and I have no care to continue I can sell the equipment for my buy in cost as it was 99% used. Fun mess I guess haha.

From a simple google search the white goo on my log is totally normal, so I am not concerned. It seems to be diminishing on its own which is exactly what other posts on this site and other predominant plant forums suggest will happen. I have compared it to photos on the web and it's identical to what a lot of people freak out about. Again not caring much about the tank helps here.. I just leave it alone - it seems to correct its self. DW's book seems to suggest this - as well as it just seems natural, don't see anyone cleaning moss off the logs in the lake!

I do have fuzzy water, there is a minor bacteria bloom that is going away - as well as I have no cap on my dirt yet. The stuff on the bottom you see is real dirt straight up. No sand yet.

I ordered some plants from aquarium plants dot com.. I can't speak to the over all quality but it's been over two weeks and they haven't shipped yet.. So who knows on that. I didn't want to cap the dirt until I got things planted. So next in the project plant, cap with sand. I will do a 100% water change At that time..

As I understand from reading I might not have crystal clear water, that is ok and part of nature. The clarity of the tank now I am fully happy with. My goal here is to have a "very little touch tank"

Once the plants show up I will have a fully planted tank, toss in a snail or two and then leave it alone for a month, then add shrimp, then add some fish waiting time between each change to the tank.

So far I am very happy with my success. I have dirt and life under water. I have stability in chemistry of the water. As a diver in the northwest clear blue water with bright fish isn't normal  and as any good Seattle resident I enjoy the not normal. It could all go bad - we will see. But I feel my total lack of any fish tank experience is helping me here as well as the understanding that this is nature - and nature is perfect just left alone, no chemicals or suction needed.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

atc84 said:


> is there a cap on top of the dirt??


Not right now (see last post) my goal was to stabilize the soil, and remove any water soluble minerals and get them out of the water column before the tank gets complex.

After my initial experimentation with "mineralizing soil" I quickly decided it was a waste of time for me, and just threw compost into the tank. Water changes every week .. There are about 4 earthworms that have survived this whole time and are mixing about the soil at a rapid rate.. The tank looks identical to a lake bed or river bed.. So I am pleased with that.

Additionally I have seen large amounts of bacteria in the last week so there is something good happening.

I will be topping the soil with sand before fish are added.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

qwe123 said:


> Can't speak for everyone, but I enjoy watching the process of new tanks being set up. Gives me ideas and stuff. If I have a question or concern, I try to speak up, but otherwise just sit back and enjoy the show.
> 
> I think you're off to a pretty good start for your first tank, rather than so many that have no clue what they're doing at first and kill all their plants and fish until they figure it out.


Thanks  yea it should be entertaining one way or the other.. I never seen anyone do this ..slow slow start. Figured it makes sense to me anyway.


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

Spudgunman said:


> I ordered some plants from aquarium plants dot com.. I can't speak to the over all quality but it's been over two weeks and they haven't shipped yet..


Sorry to hear that, don't think I'd go with that site now that I hear that...

But I am curious, what plants did you order?


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

On the two week wait for your plants. 
Yis is why I try not to ship by normal means during the winter months. I have no way to determine the route the plants will take to get to me. If they are sitting in an unheated warehouse of truck for a day there is strong possibility that they will get destroyed by frost when 1/2 the country is experiencing below zero weather. Some companies simply will not ship in weather like that. 

Yes when I had my stores I shipped several times a week in this weather. But all of those shipments were direct Air. They called me when they put the stock on the plane and then I meet the plane at the airport. This is not cost effective with small shipments. I even got orders in within 38 hours of placing them from Thialand this way.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

qwe123 said:


> Sorry to hear that, don't think I'd go with that site now that I hear that...
> 
> But I am curious, what plants did you order?


so the wait isnt for shipping.. it was more for processing.. whatever that is. basically I think due to weather and people being sick.. its no big deal.. but it did hit my limit of customer service... all the same plants will be shipped "overnight" when they are shipped so that isnt the problem

here is the plant list.. I expect them in the next 48 hours I ..think?

I should also mention that I used the company to "plant scape" my tank basically I paid them $20 gave them a mountain of data and they delivered the plant list and a "designed tank" for my needs. which were basically "make it damn easy and green" since I have no idea what I am dooing, I dont really want to sort thru plants on line, or read about them.. I am just a guy who puts crap in the the dirt and if it dies, thats the way it is. I figured $20 of lazy is worth my time.

Amazon Sword- Large pot
Aponogeton, Madagascar Lace (Aponogeton madagascariensis)
Cryptocoryne Parva (bare root)(also available in pots)
Cryptocoryne, Lutea (Cryptocoryne lutea) Pot (medium size)
Cryptocoryne, Wendtii, Bronze (Cryptocoryne wendtii v. Tropica)
Java Moss (Vesicularia Dubyana)(4 oz size portion)
Sagittaria, Subulata (narrow leaf)(Sagittaria subulata) - 10 Plants per order
Sword, Ozelot (Echinodorus Ozelot)(potted)(Large)

I will also add a moss ball, might do one of them silly floating ones. I think they are funny looking.
I also will add some floaters after the plants get established, use them to drop the light levels.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Well a huge mess later here we are.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

So all the plants are in the sand is degassing for lack of a better term..

I did have one issue somehow when I filled the tank the first time the water was hot.. like 90F I came down with about 40g in the tank and was like AAAACK.. drained out the tank and started again with proper temp water. 

basically plopped all the plants in the tank filled the tank up and going to let it sit for a while see if it takes before I spend any cash on shrimps.

I am trying to locate a source for some MTS so they can get established and start mixing up some soil.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

looks good, excited to see it grow out. I think i missed it, what is your lighting? I would also recommend putting in a background, a cheap black one would looks nice


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I have a ray2 LED 48" on it currently Running 12 hours at night .. It gets daylight from that window you see In the daytime. There is no one at home during the day.. So running the light reverse hours. In summer I suppose the tank will have near 15 hours of light a day.. But that is easily fixed... For now running longer on the light times to allow the plants to kick in gear


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I think snail eggs? I also have some plant stems melting - I assume due to damage to them in planting and shipping


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I think they are pond snails.. I found a few and they are pointy at the tail.. these snails worth keeping around? I also am getting some MTS from a friend.

did a 30% water change today

I also found what look like brine shrimp looking things (they arnt) but some sort of tiny critter scooting around in the water column. what could that be?

I am seeing about 20% of the plants start to melt away.. dont think I can do much about this?


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

does it look like a trumpet, or is it swirlyish flat? if it's longer then that is MTS.

don't know about the shrimp thing. it'll probably die or get eaten by your fish later on.

plant's always melt when they are moved to a different environment. You're plants are pearling, right? they will regrow once there roots grow in.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

atc84 said:


> does it look like a trumpet, or is it swirlyish flat? if it's longer then that is MTS.
> 
> don't know about the shrimp thing. it'll probably die or get eaten by your fish later on.
> 
> plant's always melt when they are moved to a different environment. You're plants are pearling, right? they will regrow once there roots grow in.


I thought MTS did live birth? The egg sack is what I assumed it was something like a pond.. as if it was a mystery the eggs are different? the ones in the tank are SUPER small still so I cant seem to get a good track on them for a photo.

yes most all plants are pearling decently..


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

should I be dooing water changes daily right now?


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Spudgunman said:


> should I be doing water changes daily right now?


I never did daily changes. But I always liked to do do weekly changes and in rare instances bi weekly when I just could get around to it

Initially excessive changes simply prolong the initial cycling of the tank.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

i've never done daily water changes, like TropTrea said it prolongs cycling and the plants shoujld be taking care of toxins. 

Ohh, i thought you could see the snails, and i didnt know MTS gave live birth. Then yes it's mostly likely a ramshorn or pond snail.


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

I personally don't do a water change until the day before adding livestock, and then it's a big one.

Snails shouldn't be a problem unless you don't like the look of them, in which case I'd remove them asap before they start laying eggs and get out of control. But generally it's beneficial for a planted tank to have them cleaning up dead/dying plant material, as well as uneaten food.

Have you been doing any water tests (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)? Depending on the plants, it could cycle very quickly, although that usually involves some floating plants to soak up ammonia...


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I am starting to see significant plant failure on some and some growth on others.

ph~77
gh~4
kh~4

nitrate 5ppm
nitrite ~0
ammonia=-0

because I have nitrates I assume I have a cycled tank due to ammonia breakdown and ...as far as i know that makes nitrates (remember I have no idea what I am dooin, no experience)


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I have attached a few examples of questionable areas I dont know if i should worry about.

Red=appears like death
Green=New Growth
Yellow= Plant hasn't done anything at all


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

few more

I have attached a few examples of questionable areas I dont know if i should worry about.

Red=appears like death
Green=New Growth
Yellow= Plant hasn't done anything at all


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

additionally the snails appear to be thriving, I have what I assume is snail poop (its weird tube shaped dust/dirt) on everything and I can see snail trails on the glass everywhere. I can spot about 5 new looking baby snails and they seem to get bigger every day - so i assume they are populating and growing fine. I did put some floss in the filter for now, helps with the crap from the decaying plants that is floating every now and then


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

Like 70 views and no feedback?


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Happens a lot to me too.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

130+ views and no advice..

ok I am going elsewhere sorry anyone * thread is dead.


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## drunkaquarist (Feb 28, 2014)

I've been meaning to join this site for some time and your last post was the motivation I needed. Aquariums, forums, everything, takes time. Considering you're old enough to be married and have children I would hope your patience would be a little stronger than it appears. I hope you don't bail.

As for your tank. I think your over lighting the tank and not allowing your plants to time to recoup. I might have missed you saying you've changed your lighting regime but I'm going from what I read that you said 12hours at night plus daytime natural lighting.

Walstad recommends breaks in your light regiment of at least four hours so that CO2 levels can return. When you're using daytime natural lighting plus a 12hour night regime of artificial there's no time for CO2 to build up in the tank.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Your plant growth and death is normal. In fact, they are doing much better then my plants when i added them. I started with a 5 leafed crypt, and it ended up with 1 and a couple new ones popping out. 

The forum participation is a little lower these days. Don't be discouraged...


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

I think your right on the over lighting .. I cut back to 5 hours a day and I don't see the death rate I had going there. I also tried to recoup the water a little by buying that small pack of ferts added some K and N to help recoup the losses from over lighting a natural tank.


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## drunkaquarist (Feb 28, 2014)

That's great to hear. I have a similar issue where artificial light during the day isn't observed by humans but I also live in a 100 year old Victorian with single pane windows so my tank can't get much in the way of natural light. My light regiment thus is 9am-12pm, 2pm-5pm, and 8pm-11pm, for a fourteen hour "day" with 9 hours of light. I won't say it's optimal but it works for my 10 hour a day work schedule.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

update of the tank status


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Looks to nice for low tech. lol But I am sure you well have a jungle soon.


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## mahstah (Mar 10, 2014)

Spud, I've been reading up on walstad for a while now and am contemplating trying it on my 72g. I think a lot of people don't read these forums to help but to learn. Plus they have to register and that's so much work haha.

Anyways, how are those snails? If they're eating your leaves or cluttering things up too much drop a couple slices of cucumber or lettuce in there overnight. They will flock to it and you can remove them in the morning. It's not a 100% or even 75% solution but it helps.

Did you find out what the bugs were? I've gotten copepods or daphnia before with plants I ordered online. I'm sure that's where the snails came from too.


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## Spudgunman (Jan 11, 2014)

So I dont know what the little bugs are but they are now fatter and green. 

I added 10MTS then 4 days later added 2 Assassin's 

Added a 2nd heater to assist the first unit, they cycle for shorter times now so that is good. One is vertical one is horizontal. 

Also Shrimp day! Added 20 shrimp they are active critters. RCS.

Also took out one assassin as I was loosing too many MTS too quick.

Water chemistry looks good, ph7.6 kh/gh=6 amonia and nitrites zero, nitrates at ~5 
(taken with light on)

Filter is running 24/7 with cotton "floss" and bio media and a cuttlebone. 
Light still at about 4 hours at night, with low daylight all day. 

Tank hasn't been touched yet, added 4g of water few days before the shrimp arrived.


The pond snails are vigorously eating the dead plant's they are actually really handy and I dont want to kill them too quick. They are breeding a lot but not out of control yet.. they are eating a lot of dead plant material from the initial planting still - so I am very happy with them in there.


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

I just use a small coffee cup with a waffer in it to get the snail population down when it explodes. And my oscars enjoy a snail snack.


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