# this is so complicated



## Ras (Oct 20, 2013)

everything I read about seachem fertilizing is just jibberish and conflicting statements so Im gonna try and ask this simply 
would it be safe to use just seachem flourish comprehensive and seachem root tabs 
or do you have to buy the full line. I saw the calculator that was in the sticky thread and it was suggesting to dose like 10 different fertilizers a day, seems a little bit ... crazy
and expensive

so again, would it be safe to use a diy co2, just seachem flourish comprehensive
and seachem root tabs for plants like crypts.


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm telling you I'm in the same boat as you are but I think I'm getting the hang of it. The advice I got is what the tank is going to have. High light with co2 means going all out with ferts. If you use seachem they have the flourish/comprehensive and their Macro NPK ferts. I'm in this category but I chose to use dry fertilizer, much cheaper. I think if you have low light and low light plants, you can use your Co2 but not as much fertz, I think.
And yes root tabs are always recommended for rooted plants.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

You are not going to find exact directions on how to fertilize. The clearest directions are in one single article - the EI basics which can be found on many forums. Being the only explicit source makes the information undoubtedly correct. Right or wrong is not found in this hobby. Common sense has left the building in 99% of the cases.

Simply put you can start a tank all out and try to hold it by the horns. It is a guaranteed disaster and that is why we constantly discuss issues, algae, and so on. Fill a jar with water and fertilizers, blast with CO2 and light and you will get algae. But if you add plants everything changes. Trust me... 

Or you can also ease in carefully, always having a grip on what's going on and gradually ramping up. That requires patience which is a friend of common sense and has followed it out of the building a long time ago. 

You decide what you want to do - jump on a flying car and try to drive it or sit in it and gradually accelerate to what makes you happy.

What if you started with moderate light and CO2 and the best biofiltration you can muster? You think your plants will die overnight? What if you started adding tiny amount of ferts only when the plants stop growing? What if you start to see that the small amount of ferts make the plants grow a bit faster? Will you dump a ton of ferts in the tank all of a sudden now? You get the idea - start with a clean and controllable tank and go from there to insanity if you want increasing the light, CO2, and ferts. Most folk start with insanity and stay there because no one tells them you can do anything different.

Good luck.


----------



## Ras (Oct 20, 2013)

yea Im not looking to have a high tech tank, I just want to have a stable tank, But I couldnt find out if that was even possible using only flourish , or if you HAD to use flourish potassium and other products as well

my plan is to build a small diy co2, put root tabs under my root feeders, then dose weekly with flourish
but any and every thread I find on fertilizers is just literally bouncing off random walls so to speak. the conversations are so hard to follow, 
so yea.

I have a 38 gal and a good number of diff lights in my closet to choose from, single and double 4foot t5 HO's and 4ft t8 HO's 2ft t6's, cfls. etc etc so finding a light shouldnt be a problem. 

at the moment I am using my 4ft 48watt t8, my plants all look fine but they are growing very slowly and I have a brown algae problem. doesnt look like diatoms though, the algae forms in brown strands that resemble pieces of fish poop stuck to the leaf, I gave up on ID'ing the algae and figured I should just try making some changes to see if it helps. which brought me to the fertilizer problem. I am not a scientist so I have little idea what people are even talking about when it comes to fertilizers. 

thats why I tried to simplify the question, Ik i will have to do some guess work but as for a place to start, I wanted to know if the floursh + diy co2 + root tabs is even enough to sustain a tank. seeing the calculators and different opinions just baffled me 

so again
would floursh + diy co2 + root tabs even be able to be stable if I found the right combination between the three
is there some nutrient I would be missing that root tabs + flourish wouldnt give thus leading to a breakdown? or is it ok to go ahead and start experimenting with them to try and find a good balance between the three


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

I think you can definitely work with those three using lower lights and medium to low light plants. Even that plants may need macro nutrients but not as much. You just can't use your four bulb fixture, then you'll be going to a different route and DIY Co2 is just not reliable for a tank that size and you need more fertilizer than what you intended to use.


----------



## Ras (Oct 20, 2013)

hm
so you're saying the diy wont make enough co2 for a 38gallon
or you're saying a diy co2 wouldnt be strong enough for a four bulb fixture
and thanks for the reply btw


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

With four bulb t5ho plants would demand more co2 along with full fertz. I don't think DIY Co2 would be able to keep up with the necessary level of Co2 for 38g to avoid running with algae problem. I suppose you can do 2 two liter bottle or supplement with excel. With two bulb, DIY co2 plus your intended ferts, I think that'll be better. Hey, you can use the four bulb and if it's too much you can just use two, its always trial and error. My general focus is to avoid getting nuissance algae by trying to find balance, and that's never easy.


----------



## Ras (Oct 20, 2013)

I see
well I think im going to keep my 2bulb t8
it is much less intense light, much cooler as well
my plants look great under it so far, just slow growth and the occasional hole in a leaf I think from potassium deficiency, so I orders some root tabs for my root feeders, flourish comprehensive and flourish potassium to be safe

btw what would you think a good starting dose would be
like half the recommended dose since i am going to be using a diy co2 and t8's? or maybe 1/3?


----------



## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

You can do a slit shift and extend the life of your bulbs. Half on for the first few hours, the other half for the second half of the day.


----------



## Ras (Oct 20, 2013)

how do you get the light to do that
my dual bulb fixtures shut off if you take a bulb out or w.e

you are taking about having only one of the bulbs on at a time right?


----------



## BUGGER (Nov 7, 2013)

Ras said:


> I see
> well I think im going to keep my 2bulb t8
> it is much less intense light, much cooler as well
> my plants look great under it so far, just slow growth and the occasional hole in a leaf I think from potassium deficiency, so I orders some root tabs for my root feeders, flourish comprehensive and flourish potassium to be safe
> ...


Just follow the recommended dosage on the bottle or do half at the very minimum.


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Since your tank has fairly low intensity lighting I would start a 1/4 dose and pay careful attention to your plants. If they start looking better then stick with 1/4. If not, go up to 1/2 and see how they do. Give it at least two weeks before upping the dose to make sure your plants will be growing enough to show clear signs of improvement (or not).


----------



## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

niko said:


> You are not going to find exact directions on how to fertilize. The clearest directions are in one single article - the EI basics which can be found on many forums. Being the only explicit source makes the information undoubtedly correct. Right or wrong is not found in this hobby. Common sense has left the building in 99% of the cases.
> 
> Simply put you can start a tank all out and try to hold it by the horns. It is a guaranteed disaster and that is why we constantly discuss issues, algae, and so on. Fill a jar with water and fertilizers, blast with CO2 and light and you will get algae. But if you add plants everything changes. Trust me...
> 
> ...


Well done niko!


----------



## saddletramp (Sep 16, 2012)

Here, in the Chicago area, you can go the animal shelters and in short notice find a very nice pure-bred dog and bring it home for the cost of a donation, or.........you can go to a "Puppy Palace" and buy a very cute, say, labradoodle for $800 to $1500!!!!!
What ever floats your boat!! It's the same with this hobby.
Do you ever wonder if some of the complicated, confusing set ups are created for the plants or the hobbyists who have created them??
The KISS method can work. The freedom it allows usually far outweighs the limitations it may impose.
Whatever floats your boat!
Bill


----------



## Laryl (Feb 27, 2014)

niko said:


> You are not going to find exact directions on how to fertilize. The clearest directions are in one single article - the EI basics which can be found on many forums. Being the only explicit source makes the information undoubtedly correct. Right or wrong is not found in this hobby. Common sense has left the building in 99% of the cases.
> 
> Simply put you can start a tank all out and try to hold it by the horns. It is a guaranteed disaster and that is why we constantly discuss issues, algae, and so on. Fill a jar with water and fertilizers, blast with CO2 and light and you will get algae. But if you add plants everything changes. Trust me...
> 
> ...


Thank you. I was about to quit this site and needed to read this old thread. I don't know if I"m an exception or a silent member of a club but.. all this is way too much to take in. Each tank might be a little different, and I can't even relate or apply my tank to others. I know NOTHING and haven't a clue what to do. I was about to post and maybe I will but, It's all so complicated, I'm not sure I can even follow the advice. deep breath, I might post because I'm so lost.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Lary,

If you "quit this site" and start visiting any other keep in mind three things:

1. You will not find a reasonable, clear to understand, advice anywhere. The closest you get to that is in some threads here. On one site you will find everybody talking about the products that the "sponsors" of the site push and a lot of happy-go lucky oblivion. No answers to problems. Hype and easily excitable people with little to no understanding. Arguments are quick to spark if you ask too much but the moderators watch the interests of the "sponsors" so threads will not just get shut down but actually made vanish. On another site you will find "higher level" aquascapers and again - zero answers to problems. Real questions do not spark too much controversy because it is mostly about the "beauty of the aquascapes". Threads with real questions do not get much attention. No arguments, no answers, just beauty. Yes, also driven by sponsors.

2. Please understand that people that do not have successful tanks do not like to show them. And that is a whole lot of people. There are no clear answers to the problems and people either don't ask or eventually stop asking. That's why you will find the same things discussed all over again to the point of becoming a dogma - something that everybody takes to be true.

3. Even if you run your tank with a lot of understanding how everything works you may have problems. Even professional aquascapers constantly fight with problems. The pretty pictures of aquascapes from this or that contest are not what they appear to be. Two tanks side by side may run completely differently. The glass box is alive after all and we have not figured a way to control it fully yet.

One of the greatest threads in the last 15 years of this hobby is found in the link below. It's about finally getting some answers to long standing questions. Sure enough - it is about getting the basics right. For example - "How clean is my tank?". Hope you enjoy the long reading this because many smart people participate in the thread and the ideas are flying left and right:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/89126-organics-analysis.html


----------



## Laryl (Feb 27, 2014)

I don't plan to go anywhere else.. I can see how this site works and it's all good. I'm just frustrated because it's all so totally over my head and the more I read the more confusing it gets. lol

I just posted over on dfwfishbox and should have done it here.. maybe I'll copy it if that's not considered rude. I already clicked on the link, I'll check it out. I don't do well with reading, I have to almost discuss something to have it make sense. I read fast, don't retain things and it all blurs in my head. But I'll try. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Here is an opinion: the easiest way to get started in the planted aquarium hobby is the Walstad method. Briefly stated, it is low to moderate light, soil substrate, lots of plants right from the beginning, adequate water circulation, and low stocking rates for fish. This will give you an excellent chance for success, and will teach you the basics of maintenance and balance. You can always add high light, CO2, sophisticated filtration, and fertilization later if you want them.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I was about to suggest what Michael just said! That is indeed the best reasonable way to run a planted tank.

And guess what? The Japanese company ADA, whose tanks you must be familiar with, uses these same basic things that Michael just described. Because no one can invent anything new.

Even if one day you decide to use higher light, CO2, and fertilizers you will see that if the basics are done right you can do anything. The problem with most people is unwillingness to "burden" themsevles with the basics. "Eat desert first sort of thing", haha.


----------



## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

niko said:


> You are not going to find exact directions on how to fertilize. The clearest directions are in one single article - the EI basics which can be found on many forums. Being the only explicit source makes the information undoubtedly correct. Right or wrong is not found in this hobby. Common sense has left the building in 99% of the cases.
> 
> Simply put you can start a tank all out and try to hold it by the horns. It is a guaranteed disaster and that is why we constantly discuss issues, algae, and so on. Fill a jar with water and fertilizers, blast with CO2 and light and you will get algae. But if you add plants everything changes. Trust me...
> 
> ...


What's wrong with insanity? Maybe some people love running high tech with ferts galore? I know I do, and it works fine for me!


----------

