# Need help with starting EI



## mstolpner (May 11, 2005)

Hi,

I am setting up 135G tank and I would like to try EI. I want it to be open top tank. I think that water volume will be around 100G. I would like to do daily 10% water change/dosing. I will be using 3x150W MH for 4 hours a day and 2x96W PC for another 6 hours a day. I will keep CO2 at around 30ppm. Substrate - about 4" of Eco Complete. 

As far as I understand I need to add the following chemicals into daily 10G of fresh water:
KNO3 - 1.2g
KH2PO4 - 0.1g
It will provide ~20ppm of NO3, ~2ppm of PO4 and ~140ppm of K (seems a lot) in 10G of water.

I will also add:
MgSO4 - 15g
CaCl2 - 1.5g (I may switch to CaNO3)
and I beleive it will provide ~50ppm GH. But from my experience Eco-complete leaks GH (not sure what exactly ) and KH so I will test and adjust.

Traces SCM+B - 8g

Please, I would really appreciate any comments and advices.

Mikhail


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Is there a specific reason for doing daily 10g water changes?

According to the Fertilator your K dosage is off by quite a bit. I get a result of 1.3ppm K for 10g. Your fert levels would be quite low on the first day but they would _slowly_ increase with each day's dosing. With your light level, I would probably initially dose the tank to 5-10ppm of NO3 and 1-2ppm of PO4, then continue with dosing as you described, but without the water changes.

Also, if you are using KNO3 and KH2PO4 there _probably_ isn't going to be a need to dose any K separately. I know you didn't list it but your K levels seem very high according to your calculations  I've never added CSM+B to my tanks dry but 8g seems to be quite a bit. Most shoot for 0.1-0.2 ppm of Iron when dosing micros.

Since you obviously have a larger tank and a scale to measure your dry ferts, you may want to read up on PPS fertilization in the stickies at the top of this forum. Both PPS and EI are good fert routines but I think EI is a bit easier for beginners. Not as much measuring required and no need to use/calibrate test kits. Both can be dosed daily.

Have you thought about running the 2x96 lights for 8-10 hours each day and running your MH for 4 hours during the middle of the day? Some call this a "noon blast" and seem to be having some luck with it. I have not tried it so hopefully they will add their thoughts...


----------



## mstolpner (May 11, 2005)

This is going to be open top aquarium and I am speculating that I will need to add some water every day anyway. I also think it will be easier for plants and fish. I did permanent plumbing so it shouldn't be a problem.

We actually both made a mistake with K. Fertilator gave me 13ppm for 10G. Thank you for catching it.  

I didn't know I had to target 0.1-0.2ppm of iron with traces. I based my estimation on some other thread and made a mistake. I can see it's also been suggested to keep it in 0.2-0.5ppm. With 0.2g of CSM+B Iron will be at around 0.35ppm. It seems good?

I was considering PPS and I ran it for about a month in my 33G tank with pretty good results. I don't want to start anything  but the only benefit of PPS over EI that I can see is no water change and it's not a problem in this case. 

The "noon blast" is exactly what I am going to try, but wouldn't be 450W MH + 200W PC too much?

Mikhail


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

mstolpner said:


> I did permanent plumbing so it shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> We actually both made a mistake with K. Fertilator gave me 13ppm for 10G. Thank you for catching it.
> 
> ...


If you wish, you can make the system an automatic water changer since you have permenant plumbing already, adding a solenoid(the drain and the timed device) and float switch (for the refill) and timer will do that automatically.
Electronic float switchs are also available(Spectapure etc). The float switch is not on a timer so it will never over fill your tank if a siphon breaks, etc.

I'd dose the follwoing if the GH is 3-4 or higher and the Kh is 2 or more.
KNO3: 3x a week: 1.5 teaspoons
KH2PO4: 3x a week 1/3 teaspoon
Traces: I like TMG over CMS, but about 30mls 3x a week
CMS+B 2tables spoons in 500mls of DI water.
You can also add some SeaChem Eq or www.gregwatson.com's verion of it, the GH builder on his site.

You may need a little Ca/Mg.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------



## mstolpner (May 11, 2005)

Thank you for your help. 

I am adding chemicals to get the tank initially to:
KNO3 ~10ppm, PO4 ~2ppm, CMS+B traces to get about 0.2ppm of Iron. After that I will follow your advice Tom. Thank you.

My tap water has nothing in it so I need to add Ca and Mg. SeaChem Eq is expensive so I will add CaCl2 and MgSO4.

I am using CMS+B because I have it. Where can I get TMG?

By the way I did a mistake with CaCl2 and MgSO4 calculations. ](*,) Anyway I will bring the tank initially to about 30ppm GH and then I will add it to keep GH at about 50ppm.

I also need to get KH up to about 50ppm (it's 0 in tap water) to have reasonable PH and 30ppm CO2.

I had my tank drilled so I am using kind of overflow system. Do you think I still need the float switch?

I hope I didn't miss anything.


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Greg watson sells the Barr's GH builder which is the same basic ingredients as the SeaChem EQ, but has a different % of Mg/Ca/K etc, has more traces, more Mg less K+. 

Pretty cheap.
Dissolves fast. 

You can look for other KH builders also, potassium carbonate works. 
I'd just bump the KH to 1 or 2. 30ppm is fine.

As far as an overflow, then you really can use the automated top off and a float switch since that will act like a sump and you can get the switch/valve out of the tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Mikhail,

From what I read you are planning to add 10 ppm Nitrate and 2 ppm Phosphate to the tank from day 1.

I personally don't think that's a good idea because in the first several days the plants will be stressed and not be able to use all that N and P. I personally would start with very low dosages and gradually increase to your target 10N and 2P.

Tom,

I'm sure you have posted that before but could you briefly summarize how to kick start EI in a brand new tank?

--Nikolay


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure, plant a lot of plants from the first day.

I have never had a start up issue due to a new tank. Marine, planted, etc.
But then again I have always added bacteria from established tanks and mulm. 

Other than that, concerning plant so called "stress", what happens when you trim your tank? Will 10ppm of NO3 or 40ppm of NO3 cause algae?

No.

The problem stem from people not adding enough CO2/nutrients, and not adding enough plant biomass from day one.

If you add ferts, mulm to the gravel/filter, and pack the tank with plants from day one, you do not have problems.

You can dose right away.

If new tank issues bother you, or you for whatever reason cannot add enough plants from the start: add some activated carbon. This removes the NH4 and other organics for about 2-6 weeks.
You'll lose some of the traces, but you can dose those after a week or two.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mstolpner (May 11, 2005)

Tom, why is it better to add nutrients 3 times a week than every day? Also should I add macro and micro nutrients all together or on different days? 

Thank you for your help, 
Mikhail


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

It's not better, it's just not needed.

Some folks have a better routine/habit etc, dosing daily, some 2-3x a week.
Simply subdivide the week by 7 instead of 2-3 x etc, so 15mls will now be divided 15/7= about 2 mls daily, insated of 3x 5mls a week.

With low light tanks, non CO2, dosing once a week is fine.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mstolpner (May 11, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Traces: I like TMG over CMS, but about 30mls 3x a week
> CMS+B 2tables spoons in 500mls of DI water.


Tom, If I want to use TMG, is it the same 30mls x 3 times a week?

Thanks, Mikhail


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, and TMG is prefereable vs CMS.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------

