# Do we need more PAR?



## niko

As many people I too have an aversion to most things new. Virtually all goods, in any market, offered nowadays are not much better than some of their own old versions. The LED fad that has been going on strong is a great example. And like the majority of things in life it is not good or bad. It is what you make out of it.

The fascination with LED does not come from the amazing electricity savings. Which are nothing to write home about anyway if you want a brightly lit tank. Part of the excitement is the look of and LED fixture - the low profile. Except that the need for cooling of high powered LEDs stretches that low profile up. Add the cables, hanging hardware, the ugly DIY look and LEDs really start to shine in their full glory.

"Properly cooled LED will last for many years". Except that now everybody knows that they will not last as long as all manufacturers and sellers claim.

Another "great" thing is the underwater shimmer that LEDs produce. This too is a tall claim and depends on a million things. Shimmer depends on the intensity of the light source, how concentrated it is, if the surface moves well, and how high the light is above the surface. With and LED fixture with many LEDs the shimmer is reduced to a barely exciting play of shadow and light.

All of the things above are ok. One day soon all the things I talk about above will be truly ridiculous because LEDs would have actually become what we, today, like to believe they are. What I see as the worst is something we cannot avoid unless we put some effort to change our mindset. It is that *the fascination* with gadgets, numbers, and values *leads to a separation from the understanding what makes this hobby work*. How can that be? If we know more, quantify things and so on then we know more for sure, right. Not exactly. A fascination makes you one sided. A good example is the notion that "more is better". It can really take you far, in any sense you want to think of it.

To be continued today.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Niko,

Your statements are all valid; of course the true savings of LED's is not the electricity savings but the savings from not replacing my fluorescent tubes on an annual basis.

One of the shortcomings of LED's is the possible inflexibility of the light spectrum; I.E. the spectrum for my plants and the visual 'look' the light imparts on the aquarium. The issue can be circumvented by doing a DIY fixture (with its inherent issues) or using a manufacturer that offer the ability to customize the LED's utilized (BuildMyLED) but many of the fixtures come in a 'fixed' LED configuration so if you don't like the look it produces the only choice is to live with it or sell the fixture. However with fluorescent tubes there is the ability to mix and match or change out bulbs to achieve my desired results.

That said, I currently have only converted one tank to LED lighting which I have used since last spring.


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## Cavan Allen

Wait a minute Niko. Are you telling me that I'm not seeing shimmer, that my PAR values aren't what they were a year ago when installed my fixture or that I didn't get exactly what I was hoping for when I bought it? I must have been wrong!


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## niko

No, Cavan. I am not making a point about LEDs at all. I am making a point about something we overlook - the *connection* between the things that make this hobby work. This hobby is not about just growing plants.

As I said - LEDs are not good or bad. You can have extreme shimmer *depending* on what LEDs you use, how deep is the tank, the surface movement, the position of the LEDs above the tank.

Here's an example of extreme shimmer with 2x50W LEDs:





Not everybody gets such an amazing shimmer. Just buying LEDs does not make all of one's dreams come true. Here are some LED lit planted tanks that show very light or no shimmer at all. Actually I could not find videos of planted tank with any great shimmer:

















This video has a planted tank with very good shimmer. But look at the water depth - it is very shallow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7xFSDmkoH38#t=438


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## niko

Back to my point: A one sided point of view separate us from understanding how this hobby works.

I chose to start this thread talking about LEDs because they are a very good example of a one sided way to look at a planted tank. If you are a bit technically inclined you choose LEDs by wavelength and PAR. You find a combination that produces light with the most PAR and the wavelengths are close to the plant photosynthesis peaks. You also add a few LEDs to make the color of the light pleasing to your eye. Looks like LEDs are indeed an amazing thing.

Except that in this search of technical perfection you miss the big picture. Just like you miss it when you focus too much on any other single aspect of this hobby - fertilizers, filtration, the newest-rarest plant, ongoing algae battles or what everybody says about everything planted tank. Distractions from the things of real value. Depriving you from the full experience you could have.

Here's what gave me the idea for this thread; A friend of mine that knows aquatic plant growing and aquascaping like no one else I know had installed some hydroponic lights over his tank. These lights are engineered to produce high PAR but he didn't know it was insane for planted tank standarts. At 24" the PAR was 90. The PAR was evenly spread over most of the substrate. The tank was problematic in the last 3 months. He didn't know that that brand of hydroponic lights were so effective. Indeed - to get 90 PAR at 24" you need a lot of power. The hydroponic light was only 108 watts and you could not suspect the monstrous PAR that it produced. Without knowing the extreme PAR he got the tank under control. It took crazy amounts of CO2 and crazy amounts of fertilizers added to the water. The PAR meter was used just the other day and gave a clear answer what was going on. Way too much PAR for the environment he was providing in the beginning.

With tons of CO2 and fertilizers the plant growth was great. But not as great as a previous version of the tank with 50% less PAR. The plants in that previous tank had that special vibrant look of true health.

He told me that AquaSoil struggles to grow plants if the light is too much. It is not designed to work under strong light. You have to rely on a crutch - adding extra ferts to the water. Basically you are now forcing things to happen. As usual - if you can you will, you just need to want.

Recently in another thread someone mentioned that at PAR 150 the aquatic plants stop growing. The light is too much. PAR of 150 from a more or less normal bulb looks very bright to the human eye and the planted tank will look like a million dollars. You can certainly get shimmer like in a swimming pool in a bright sunny day. But you really do not want too high PAR. You can find bulbs that look very bright to the human eye but produce low PAR. That was the case with the "previous tank" described above - beautiful strong light but *not* forcing anything into overdrive. Spectacular plant health, every single leaf. People that are interested in the Japanese contest have seen that tank. The guy does not care much about forums so I cannot link to a picture. Anyway - one can probably make an argument that there is a concept of "optimal PAR" that grows the healthiest looking plants.

Ask any plant head that is on the market for LEDs if they want the highest PAR their money can buy. Find the weirdo that says "Not really". Everybody wants to nail the photosynthetic peaks on the head and have the maximum PAR possible.

I know that not everybody wants a tank that runs itself and looks great all the time. People like action, involvement, drama. But there is a combination of substrate fertilization, light, filtration, flow, and minor water column interventions (ferts, water changes) that produces a low-input, no-issues tank that gives plants the extreme vibrant healthy look. And this is not about the highest PAR. It is not about LEDs vs. hydroponic vs.. fluorescent vs. Metal Halide lights. It is not about algae control, fertilizers, deficiencies and toxicities. It is not about how fast and big the plants grow.

It's about the plants and their interaction with the world you made for them. About small, subtle, intricate details that your mind will be free to notice. It's about enjoyment of finer things. About giving a lot and always getting more in return.

That's aquascaping.


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## saddletramp

LEDs, very interesting topic and very thought provoking thread.
Not too long ago when growing exotic-colored Acropora and other hard corals, LED fixtures began to appear. Everyone was sceptical.
HOWEVER, with most hard corals, there is NEVER too much PAR. 
Along come these new tangled LED fixtures and WOW, sufficient PAR with much less heat.

So, less heat is what the whole thing was all about initially, at least. You did not need a chiller and had no fear of overheating. The cost then was prohibitive for what you got.

It seems most of the other reasons for buying LEDs are cosmetic.
From my aspect that the 6500K T5 bulbs do a great job, are low enough profile for me, are cost effect enough and do not generate too much heat.
Why the freshwater plant aficionados are so interested in LEDs is an interesting question. It might just be the attraction to new and novel ideas and technology. Are LEDs better? Better for what? That is a personal decision. Perhaps a lot of it is subjective!, not just objective. Some people seriously want to try them. Others may do it for the 'bling'.
I can afford LED fixtures, have one and am not impressed enough to get more at this time. And, historically, is go back to the time of Thomas Edison, LOL! Remember those incandescents?
The important thing is.......this is just a hobby to most of us. Enjoy!
Bill


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## JeffyFunk

niko said:


> Recently in another thread someone mentioned that at PAR 150 the aquatic plants stop growing. The light is too much. PAR of 150 from a more or less normal bulb looks very bright to the human eye and the planted tank will look like a million dollars. You can certainly get shimmer like in a swimming pool in a bright sunny day. But you really do not want too high PAR.


Niko, you're not understanding what i said previously. In a previous post, someone asked if it was possible to have 'too much' light. My response was, yes there is, because there is a point where the addition of more light (measured in PAR) does not result in making the plants grow faster (measured in terms of plant mass). Of course, it is important to realize that this is assuming that light is the limiting factor and everything else (CO2, ferts, etc) is non-limiting. The PAR value that corresponded to where the plants did not grow faster was around 150 PAR. They didn't stop growing, they simply didn't grow any faster.

Also, 'brightness' is a somewhat tricky topic... From what i understand, the human eye is the most sensitive to green light so a light source w/ a lot of green light will appear 'brighter' than a light source w/out a lot of green light, even though they may have the same PAR values. A good example I always think of are the Giesemann 'Aqua flora' bulbs. These bulbs (supposedly) have a high PAR value but, to my eyes at least, they always appear very dim, simply because they do not have as large of a green spike as some of the other bulbs. This is why it is suggested that they be combined with the Giesemann 'Midday' bulbs because those bulbs are designed to look 'brighter' to the human eye, balancing out the color w/ the 'Aqua flora' bulbs...



niko said:


> I know that not everybody wants a tank that runs itself and looks great all the time. People like action, involvement, drama. But there is a combination of substrate fertilization, light, filtration, flow, and minor water column interventions (ferts, water changes) that produces a low-input, no-issues tank that gives plants the extreme vibrant healthy look. And this is not about the highest PAR. It is not about LEDs vs. hydroponic vs.. fluorescent vs. Metal Halide lights. It is not about algae control, fertilizers, deficiencies and toxicities. It is not about how fast and big the plants grow.
> 
> It's about the plants and their interaction with the world you made for them. About small, subtle, intricate details that your mind will be free to notice. It's about enjoyment of finer things. About giving a lot and always getting more in return.
> 
> That's aquascaping.


This i agree with. That said, relating this conversation back to LED's and PAR values, each of us needs to consider what type of plants we are looking to grow and match the PAR values roughly with those plants. Certain plants are more difficult to grow because they require more light (and everything that goes with it) to grow. The minimum PAR values required to grow, say, Microsorum sp. is going to be a lot less than that required to grow, say, Pogostemon helferi. In this regards, LED's are great because many of the fixtures are dimmable, allowing you to tailor the PAR value with the plants you want to grow. This is actually a great example of having technology fit the desires of the grower and what they want to do.


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## micheljq

My biggest problem with T5HO, which made me interested in leds, is that they cost more than 20$ each where I reside, in Canada. So I find leds interesting.

There are the T8 bulbs but it is complicated finding 3 foot ones and no way I can find a good T8 fixture which is 3 foot long, there are only 4 foot ones.

Shimmer is a thing I do not really care about.

Also got frustrated when one T5NO tube failed on me after 4 months, and it did cost 17$.

Michel.


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## Apprentice

Well for my 2 cents. I went with DIY led for the following reasons.

1 Temperature control.Last several summers temps. in N.Y. have climbed up to 97 degrees plus at times. I have no A.C. Lost some plants and one betta 2012. Was away at that time.

2 Light control. Wanted to reduce growth rate by lowering par with out having to hang a fixture. Travel a lot for work and needed a way to keep tank in balance while away. Like option to also increase par if seeking faster growth. I.E. getting carpet plants to fill in quickly.

3 DIY because offerings from other light manufactures didn't fit the bill. ADA Aquasky did not have a dimmer at $200. TMC had an arduino type controller for $300. Twice the price of the light fixture. But hey you get lightning effects! And Ecoxotic Eco-Pico fixture reasonable price, has dimmer but wrong color temp 12,000K. More suited for Salt aquarium. Decided to build my own. Right color temp. 6700k. Adjustable up to about 145 PAR. And I think my design is aesthetically pleasing. Cost just under $100.









For me the main advantage of LED is dimming control. I don't understand why every manufacture can't or won't add a simple potentiometer to their arrays. The cost for me was about $5 with the fancy knurled aluminum knob. The cost between the dimming and non dimming driver was also insignificant. Also about $5 difference. I believe if manufactures want to sell more leds to planted aquarium owners they need to build with lights in the proper spectrum and add at least simple dimming controls. It is not necessarily about just more PAR but the ability to control PAR while not having to get involved with raising/lowering fixtures and still maintain a relatively small foot print.

Regards; Rob


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## fishyjoe24

a light fixture nothing with out a good reflector and good bulb.


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## chrislewistx

Nice start to a thread. I see several responses in specific regards to the LEDs and Lighting in general. However, I took something else away from it that I have thought about many times. 

The question is not whether LED lights are good or bad. The question is: Do you purchase the new buzz worthy item because it addresses an actual need you have, or because it satisfies your want of cool new gadgets?

In no way do I mean to suggest that the people who responded to this post prior to me bought LEDs for purely superficial reasons. I do however think this is something we see a lot in this hobby. To be fair though, I see that in all hobbies. In my opinion a hobby should be fun. Some people have fun by purchasing the latest gear and gadgets, or by seeking out the ultra rare item or location. While others might enjoy the science behind a hobby, or the history of the hobby etc. Again a hobby should be fun, so whatever way you find it fun that is fine with me. Just remember it is a hobby and it is supposed to be fun and relaxing. Do not take it too seriously.

Specific to our hobby how many times do you see a post along these lines? "Hey, I bought this brand substrate, these high end filtration pipes, this cool looking bottle of fertilizer, and this brand name of lights, so why do I still have algae, and how long will it take my carpet of HC to grown in?" All though some of the things mentioned are useful when answering their question they left out key information, size of tank, flow rate, how much plant mass, what kinds of plants, water chemistry etc, etc. They think its a specific brand of product or type of product that grows plants. When in reality, like Niko stated, its a combination of things that grow healthy plants.

What YOU need for YOUR aquarium is specific to many different things. Niko referred to it as: "a combination of substrate fertilization, light, filtration, flow, and minor water column interventions (ferts, water changes) that produces a low-input, no-issues tank that gives plants the extreme vibrant healthy look." 

However, most of the time people want to focus on one part. For instance: "Why am I getting algae when my drop checker is light green. I know my CO2 level is ok." or "Why are my plants turning green from red, I have a TH50 fixture" They are not willing to take more than one part into consideration. Or they want to change several things at once. Which does not tell you what actually caused the change. In our modern age, convenience, and instant gratification are king. While in reality most things take time, and work to accomplish them. 

I like how Niko stated it: "a combination of substrate fertilization, light, filtration, flow, and minor water column interventions (ferts, water changes) that produces a low-input, no-issues tank that gives plants the extreme vibrant healthy look." 

In my opinion, all these things are very specific to your particular setup. That is why my 40B tank has healthy plant growth with two T5HO lamps, while someone I know across town has healthy plant growth with a single LED fixture. Likewise someone else across town uses four TH50 bulbs. All on 40 breeder tanks, with different substrates, plant mass, plant types etc, but all with healthy plant growth. Because we made sure that all the components of our systems work together for our specific needs. 

In addition, there is someone I know who has a nicely aquascaped tank with extremely healthy plant growth and little maintenance. He uses capped potting soil, knock off brand lighting and accessories from Ebay. He has a great looking tank with healthy plants. Might some of his knockoff brand items break down quicker than higher priced items, possibly yes. Does he care? No he doesn't. He is happy and enjoys his aquascape. In addition, he knows what made his plants healthy. Along those same lines I know someone who purchased a "complete system" from one of those brand name, high dollar companies. I mean every tool, additive, and component of his system came from them. You could say he followed their book. He constantly battles algae, plants melting and is frustrated. 

Unfortunately all the hobbies I know of seem to be like that. My dad can out fish me with one bag of purple plastic lizards that have been in his tackle box since I was 7 years old, and a Zebco 33 reel. My tackle box looks more like a mechanics Snap On tool chest on wheels. The difference is he knows how to fish that purple lizard in any conditions, any time of day or night to catch fish, because he knows what fish do. 

You can say the same thing about many hobbies. Will a large motor make your car go faster on the drag strip? Yes it will, but does that sparkle green paint help you go faster? Nope it doesn't, but it looks good, and you enjoy it. Will that pampered chef Cobalt Blue mini mix and scrapper work better than a spoon? Is that $425 dog bed from Orvis really better than the one from Walmart for $29.99?

Maybe they are better in some situations, but it takes knowing the root cause of the situation to make that decision. Shimmer does not grow plants, rimless aquariums do not grow plants, clear glass filtration parts do not grow plants. They might increase your enjoyment of the hobby, but realize why your buying them. If you want to grow healthy plants then figure out what substrate, fertilizer, light, filter, and maintenance program you need for YOUR tank.


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## Apprentice

I agree with what chrislewistx stated. No amount of technically advanced equipment will miraculously make you a better planted aquarium enthusiast. No filter will guarantee sparkling clear water under all conditions. No single dosing method will ensure optimum growth in all circumstances. No one light fixture to rule them all.

I know there are some that claim LED will minimize algae. I don't buy that. Maybe for some getting a new fixture corrected an existing problem (to much light or too little) but there is no evidence to any algaecidal properties of LEDs.

I also agree that when diagnosing problems in a planted tank you must look at the whole system, test what you can and proceed methodically to get to the root cause. One idea for newbie posts might be to include in the APC greeting email instructions for help posts. Please post all tanks specs, size, light fixture type and wattage, filtration, PH, GH, KH, Temp, Flora, Fauna, type of algae(if you don't know attach picture), dosing regime, substrate, CO2 or not, etc. This information will help other posters in helping you. Just a thought.

With that said, even if some one wants to buy a new piece of equipment for techno-lust or just aesthetics that is fine too.


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## Cavan Allen

I get what Niko is saying here. It's totally true that we can focus on gadgetry and forget how to grow good plants. But I don't get the LED detraction. No, they don't last forever. They do last a whole lot longer than T5s though, and I can raise or lower their intensity with a few button presses. And I do like the shimmer. If you do your homework, they absolutely have some major advantages. His points are quite valid, but there's no need to be a technophobe.


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## niko

Today I used a big lift to get to some bulbs installed in a huge conference room. Below are the PAR readings:

10 inches below the bulb - PAR 1,750 (one thousand seven hundred and fifty).
5 feet below the bulb - PAR 165.

250W halogen bulb. No ballast, no driver - just a socket and a power cable. Hot as hell. I could feel the heat even 4 feet under the bulb and through the glass shield in front of it.

That's all fine and dandy - hellish PAR and hellish heat. No one would want that. But a 250W LED will have to be cooled with some serious fans, the rig will be as bulky as the halogen hardware, AND will cost a fortune. That halogen bulb was not cooled in any way. I can't even find a 250W LED. Here's a 180W LED ready to go for $715, looking great, will do what a 250W Halide does, will run 10X cooler and will last 8 years. Too bad no one has used one of these for 8 years but hey, it's LED so it's got to be good.

$715... Who wins now? Not the hell hot halogen, not the LED. This is like looking for an electric car - it will save on gas, will run forever, environmentally friendly (if we don't ask too much about it)... and will cost as much as 1-1/2 gas cars + changing the entire set of expensive batteries at about 200K miles (when you would normally have a new gas car). But you can go for an electric golf cart. Small size, all kinds of benefits, just don't drive it too far. Like a nano tank - could be great if that's what you want. Nano tanks are where LEDs shine - power savings, elegant look, real shimmer, no heat issues, cheap. But in all other places they never shine unless you are inclined to see it so because a seller screams it is so.


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## ObiQuiet

My electric car has LED headlights -- do I get bonus points?  

(My tanks do not have LEDs though...)


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## Apprentice

Well Nico first l'd say I'm not sure who would need a fixture that produced 165 PAR 5ft above a substrate. Except maybe Takashi Amano for his indoor planted swimming pool. Off course if you can afford that aquarium $700 bucks should be pocket change.

As far as the comparison to the electric car I don't believe is quite the same thing. The electric car or hybrid is constrained by the current state of its technology. Mainly the batteries. Lithium Ion batteries are expensive and heavy in the amount needed to power these vehicles. In the case of a vehicle like the Tesla you also have remove the whole body to replace its batteries. Imagine that labor charge at your friendly Tesla dealership. As far as leds go the current high price is not so much due to the state of technology but the cost of initial tooling and a slow beginning of adoption by the public. Early adopters will of course pay a higher price. Same as for most newer technology.

I can remember when working for an electronics retailer as a manager (lets call them Audio Hut, sometimes referred to as just the Hut) and we got our first blue ray player in by Panasonic. It was $499.99! Trust me the penny make all the difference. Two years later we were selling them for about $140 on average. This has been true for most progressive tech , LCD TVs, cell phones etc.
'
Price wise things may start improving sooner than expected. Let's say I pick a 75 gal aquarium as an average and choose a medium light 48 inch fixture. T5 twin tube averages between $125 to $150. I found this fixture at http://www.buildmyled.com 48 inch dutch planted 6300k medium light with 90 degree lens for $265. Yes twice the price of comparable T5 but cheaper then most current offering from the big boys. Even comparing at the component level, say Cree xp-g that I paid $4.50 last year is now $3.75. Newer tech drives down the price of last generation. For the time being a budget minded DIYer can build for less than manufactured by making some frugal choices. Use last gen leds. Use wide angle lenses for coverage. Stick with color temps in similar range as preferred fluorescent range (save having individual dim-able driver for reds, blues greens etc.) If using an existing or custom enclosure add some venting on top. Won't need as many fans. Simple pot dimmers.

As far as shinning only on smaller tanks I respectfully disagree. I did note an earlier post on another thread where you stated that leds and T5s had to be matched watts to watts. This is only true if looking at cheaper made smd leds. My diy 15 watt cree xp-g fixture (if I turn the potentiometer all the way to max.) puts out 150 PAR at the substrate . The 27 watt fluorescent finnex fixture it replaced made 75 Par at the substrate. Also many cheaper smd lights have been reported to fail early. Have not heard much of failures with Cree or Luxeon.This is also one of my beefs with some of the manufactures out there. Buildmyled looks promising as the say they use 1 to 3 watt leds in their fixture, not smds. This is usually the recommendation for leds on most of the diy led forums I have scoured (both planted and reef). There maybe some quality smd's, just haven't heard of any specific manufacturer per se. Hopefully with more competition, more educated consumers, more companies will eventually produce better quality and prices will come down.

Regards, Rob

P.S. Real LED's shimmer. Real Vampires do not.


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## BruceF

Why are you getting such high par readings from a halogen bulb?


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## Cavan Allen

niko said:


> But in all other places they never shine unless you are inclined to see it so because a seller screams it is so.


No. There are definite benefits to them, as I and many others have pointed out. We are not all merely simpletons who are gullible enough to fall for marketing hype. I think a falling LED fixture must have killed your dog.


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## Apprentice

> Everybody wants to nail the photosynthetic peaks on the head and have the maximum PAR possible


I'm not sure I beleive that. I know there are many in the I need high light to grow plants camp. But that number has diminished alot over the years since we found out that most ADA tanks operate in the lower end of medium light.. Some of the larger aquariums with a mid day burst.

As far as cost savings one over looked aspect is bulb replacement. After searching variouse forums T5HO bulb replacement runs anywhere from 1 to 4 years. So lets say on average every 2 years. A 48" fixture with 2 bulbs. Cost $50. Compare to Led fixture with quality leds with a lifspan 50,000 hrs run at say 10 hrs a day equals 13.8 years. Lets say 14 years since 50,0000 is a conservative estimate since older generation cree xp-g are now documented as having run over 60,000 hrs. The T5HO bulbs will have been replaced 7 times at a cost of $350. Compare to the $265 buildmyled fixture I mentioned before and the T5HO averaging $137. Factoring the price difference $128 and the savings on replacement bulbs the Led saves $222 in the long run. Electric usage at 12 cents kilowatt hr 64 watt led for 14 years cost approx. $400.T5HO at 96 watts is approx. $600. Total cost of T5HO ownership $1087. Total cost of Led ownership $665. Maybe only $30 a year. But stll adds up. Also not having to replace bulbs. One less thing to worry about. What is your time worth? Time is a benefit. Focus on aquascape and growing plants. A quality made led fixture wins.

Regards, Rob


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## BruceF

Can you point us to an led that has lasted 14 years?


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## Zapins

I usually buy replacement bulbs at 7.50 each and don't LEDs also lose brightness over time?


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## Apprentice

Zappins I have only experienced myself and heard on other forums of led brightness loss on very cheap smd type leds. Say like the aquatop 21 led clip on led fixture. I have this one as a moonlight on my aquarium. Faded about half within a year My cree XP-G fixture a year later not one bit. The price on the bulbs I quoted where for a 48" inch fixture totaling 96 watts and comparing to a similar 48" led medium par fixture. I just googled a quick search for T5HO replacement bulbs in that wattage. Is your fixture similar specs? Curious $7.50 sounds cheap. I think I paid more for a Finnex 27watt replacement CFL bulb.

Regards, Rob

P.S. Also based the med par on say a 65/70 gal aquarium. I believe I posted this earlier in thread. Info maybe a little bit scattered I know. Up late. 2 hours sleep. I feel a bit scattered myself. Lol


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## Apprentice

The more I look at Buildmyled, the more I like what I'm seeing for the future of led fixtures. This small company really seems to be trying to raise the bar in what is available to the planted aquarium enthusiast. They have even made me see some benefits I hadn.t thought of comming from a manufacture. Like preconfigured fixtures available in 7 different color temps. Multiple mounting options. Tank rim or suspended. Order your own custom color combo and if you don't like it, return with in 30 days for an exchange or refund. Man you have to give these guys some credit. They seem to be trying hard to win us over. Other positives I'll list in no particular order.
1 to 3 watt quality leds.
Select custom fixture for low medium or high PAR levels.
Custom selection of lens 30 45 60 75 90 degrees.
Fanless design achieved by use of integral finned heat sink and under driven leds.
3 year warranty
Inexpensive optional manual dimming switch $14.99
They actually have charts online showing PAR data, at various depths, with different lenses , and distances from center.
Optional Apex Dimming Cable to hook to Apex programmable contoller.

Actually now that I think about it. One of the best things about led over CF fixtures is options. Isn't that what most successful technology has to offer? 10 years ago I had a 20" crt tv, paid $35 a month for Sat TV (to watch a limited selection of movies and programs), Verizon house phone $40 a month (hardly called anyone long distance), dial up service $20 a month and no wireless network. Total cost $95 Now I have a 37" LCD connected to a Roku set top box Netflix for $8 a month plus many other free entertainment options, high speed 10mps internet $40 month, Vonage phone service $30 a month. Total cost $78. I save some money. I can now call family or friends long distance and talk as long as I want. Also have call waiting, forwarding, email notification, voice mail box. Didn't have these before. I now have fast internet. I have a wider selection of movies, TV shows, music, and educational programming then before. I can watch when I want to watch. Pause if I want to get a sandwich or post something online via my my laptop connected to my LCD TV via wireless keyboard New technology can offer us convenience. Sometimes cost savings. But the most consistent thing it offers is options.


Regards, Rob


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## Cavan Allen

Zapins said:


> I usually buy replacement bulbs at 7.50 each and don't LEDs also lose brightness over time?


When I moved to my current apartment, I set up my tank with a four bulb T5HO fixture. _L. sphaerocarpa_ growth was red and flat. Less than a year later, growth was upright and green, a significant drop off in light intensity. A year after installing this LED fixture, growth is... red and flat. The LEDs have not lost any intensity that I can see.


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## Zapins

Hmm interesting Cavan. 

I buy my bulbs on ebay in bulk packs of about 10 or so. Power compact 55-65 w bulbs. Same as T5 HO just bent.

Well I ordered a small 10 watt flood light LED for an emersed tub I have so I'll be able to see for myself. Too bad I don't own a PAR meter or I could keep track of these things. 

Buildmyled's stuff looks nice but its quite pricey. I've been looking on ebay and it seems to me that if those LEDs don't deteriorate then they are probably going to be the cheapest option all around for lighting.


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## Apprentice

Great find on the bulbs. Sometimes E-Bay rocks. I'm not that familiar with the bent tube version. Seen them before in the past on pet retail sites. I don't imagine most are buying in bulk. When I search more diligently for bargains I can find some at about $12 apiece. Add say $6 shipping. Two bulbs plus shipping total $30. Replace 4 times over 14 years for a cost of $120. Still makes long term cost comparable on bulbs alone. 

As far as pricey Well compared to initial cost of a T5HO yes. I am not advocating early adoption of leds for most. If for instance someone said I was thinking of upgrading to leds on three of my tanks because I think they look cool, I would recommend they hold off till prices drop. On the other hand if someone had a specific need such as I did then I would recommend buying now (after doing research for quality fixture) or diy if on budget.

LED's definitely have some advantages over fluorescent. Less heat transferred to aquarium (particularly on rim mounted applications), Dimming control. Ability to be electronically controlled (dimming, on off event, noon burst, etc.) large variety of color options, can be made low profile for hard to fit applications, longevity of bulbs and a 30 percent electric savings on average.

I believe the future will be leds. Yes early adopters will pay higher price. Some will hit nasty bumps in the road. Cheaply made fixtures with poor performance or short lifespans. Look back at the first smartphones. 

Comedian Lewis Black's comments on the first gen. Iphone. 
The Iphone is an amazing piece of technology. It is a great computer. Its just a lousy phone.

But now look at where we are. Smart phones are every where. Apple fixed their antenna problem. Competition from android phones improved quality and drove prices down (and made Steve Jobs mad).

I'm sure many of the same things were said when T5's first started replacing T12 and other fixtures. I don't believe its about getting more PAR, but more control over it. 

Do I take the blue pill and go back to sleep. Or take the red and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Zappins please let us know how the led floods work out when you get them. Pics would be cool too.

Regards, Rob


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## Zapins

Haha nice matrix reference.

I'll definitely post pics when I get them. Should be arriving any time from tomorrow to Friday.


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## Apprentice

Hey Zappins,

Did you get it today? Any pics yet?

Regards, Rob


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## Zapins

Yes I did! It was easy to wire up. I actually got it on monday so it only took 2 days in the mail to get to me.

I have pictures up here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/lighting/89028-led-question-niko-2.html


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## niko

Cavan,

I have to inform you that I have now referred to myself as a "technophobe" several times. I tried hard but that is indeed what I have become. Truth is that it is not my problem but what I see other people doing. I try hard to deny what I see but it is just too obvious that in a few rare occasions we all act very ignorant - for example believing that Gatorade hydrates you like nothing else, that bananas, cherry tomatoes, and strawberries are good for you and are not number 1, 2, and 3 in the list of most chemically treated plants, and that High Fructose Corn syrup is an excellent sugar substitute. These are very rare cases of mistaken understanding - not the usual way we all behave. So anything similar in the planted tank hobby just stands out like a sore thumb. Yes, sarcasm all along, you know me.

Here are two things from my world that make me a technophobe. One has to do with the race for high PAR and the other one has to do with mobile technology which is a wonderful thing, no doubt about that. Secretly I have been considering giving up my puppy-chewed Nokia flip phone but some people consider them retro-cool and I tend to agree with them. Plus I can use it as a phone, you know.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-plant-club/80982-par-data-collection-13.html


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## tefsom85

Cavan Allen said:


> I think a falling LED fixture must have killed your dog.


I haven't finished the entire thread yet, but I have to admit. This is funny


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## Apprentice

Hey Nico I can understand about being leery of new tech. The first edison socket CFL bulbs that came out were terrible for house lighting. Color temps. way to cool. I look pale enough in warm kelvin light. Eventually manufactures got the idea and started producing the right color temp bulbs and prices became reasonable. 

I only upgraded to an adroid phone a year ago because I needed a phone that would work over seas with a sim card. My old phone was a pristine 10 yr. old Samsung A630. My friend who sold me the phone joked welcome to the 21st century.

I do believe LED will be the future. Right now for those who really want a LED fixture the best advice to give them is do some research. I would recommend that when making any substantial purchase. New tech or old. Plantedtank.net seems to have a few different detailed threads on LED fixtures. Also reviews on sites like amazon.

As far seeking higher PAR I don't believe that is the case for most these days. Used to be. But since we found out that ADA tanks are running at lower PAR and many other Guru types have said with sufficient CO2 and medium PAR we can grow most plants less are seeking higher PAR levels. I certainly found this to be true and works well in my own tank.


Regards, Rob


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