# Ok I give up - what is wrong here?



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Ever since I went away for a month in January without being able to fertilize the tank, I've had strange things happening to plants.

When I got back all of the crypts had melted and a lot of the plants looked in bad shape.

But after months of diligently dosing to make sure no nutrients are missing I'm stumped. I'm actually wondering if my substrate has gotten poisonous! (I'm not even sure that's possible :???: ).

Here are some of the symptoms:

- The stem on certain stem plants suddenly starts to rot. On some of them the rot happens somewhere along the length of the stem in one spot only and after some days the stem above that spot detaches from the plant. On some other stems the whole stem becomes soft and "mushy".
- Leaves are coming off of Hygro. Some have pinholes but the really strange thing is that it looks like the "stem" of the leaf has rotted and therefore the leaf has detached. See picture.
- Holes in Anubias. this is really strange. New leaves will come nice and green and then suddenly overnight areas of a leaf become "glassy" and then this becomes holes. See picture.
- I recently (two weeks ago) added some Hydrocotyle. Now the leaves are just melting away. See picture.
- I still get crypt leaves coming out of the substrate from the roots of the melted crypts. These leaves grow about 3 to 5cm (1-2") and then melt, starting with the leaf stems.

Now for the substrate. This was originally a Dennerle setup so the substrate is a layer of Dennerle Deponit mixed with small plain gravel. Then a layer of gravel on top of this mix. Dennerle cable heating under it all. Total depth of the substrate is around 8-9cm (over 3").

The substrate was setup up in November of 2003 during a tear down and move of a 200l tank that I've had for 15 years or so.

I have a bit of BGA but it doesn't seem to spread too rapidly. Some strands of thread algae here and there that come and go. That's it re algae.

Here are specs:

- Recently installed an Arcadia Luminaire with 4x 39w T5 Plant Pro bulbs. Previous to that I had 5x 25w T8 JBL bulbs.
- Pressurized CO2 through an AM 1000 reactor on the output of an Eheim 2026.
- pH between 6.7 and 6.9 at a KH of 9 (39-60mg/l of CO2)

Dosing schedule for about 4 months now:

50% Water change day - 3g KNO3, 6g K2SO4, 0.54mg/l of KH2PO4, 10g MgSO4 (most of my GH of 10 is Ca).
Day 2 - 0.15mg/l of Fe from CSM+B
Day 3 - 3g KNO3, 2g K2SO4, 0.54mg/l of KH2PO4.
Day 4 - 0.1 mg/l of Fe from CSM+B
Day 5 - Same as Day 3
Day 6 - Same as Day 4
Day 7 - No dosing

The above gives me a weekly dosing of (I calculate based on 175l of real volume in the 200l tank) 31mg/l of NO3, 1.6mg/l of PO4, 0.35mg/l of Fe, 5.7mg/l of Mg and 46mg/l of K.

I do get bubbles from the substrate if I poke around but no rotten sulphur smell from the bubbles.

Is it my substrate that doing something really strange? Or is there a major deficiency that I'm missing?

Here are some pics:


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## shalu (Oct 1, 2004)

wow, that really puzzles me too. when even anubias start to melt/have holes, something major must be missing. NO3 is the first thing that comes to my mind, but you seem to dose enough. Maybe you need a sanity check on the ferts you are using, to see if they are indeed the right chemicals, for example, is the KNO3 really KNO3?


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

*The same*

I have the same symptoms once a year around april/may in my 300 litre tank. This year I noticed my GH was almost unmeasurable and I hadn't dosed any MgSO4 and used a CSM+B equivalent without Mg:

























I dosed around 10 ppm NO3 from KNO3, 1 ppm PO4 from KH2PO4 and 0.1 ppm Fe from CSM+B-equivalent-MgSO4 every other day with 30-60 ppm CO2.

One week ago I started upping the Mg after WC so it gets 4:1 to my presumed tapwater calcium-content. Tap: 22 ppm Ca, 2.3 ppm Mg => ~2 tsp MgSO4 to get 4:1 Ca:Mg. But because the GH was so low I thought I also dose extra 20 ppm Ca from CaCl2 and 5 ppm from MgSO4.

The "after wc GH-dose" then became: 20 ppm Ca from 5 tsp CaCl2 and 7 ppm Mg from 4 tsp MgSO4.

Also I switched to Tropica Mastergrow. Things are looking better.


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## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

Did u check that your co2 tank is full?


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Yes. I check the pH every day when I get home from work and adjust bubbelrate if needed.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> wow, that really puzzles me too. when even anubias start to melt/have holes, something major must be missing. NO3 is the first thing that comes to my mind, but you seem to dose enough. Maybe you need a sanity check on the ferts you are using, to see if they are indeed the right chemicals, for example, is the KNO3 really KNO3?


I jumped on this idea! I went and mixed up a known solution of 120mg/l of NO3 using the KNO3 that I have.

My NO3 test kit shows.... 120mg/l of NO3 :???:

Wish it had been that simple! Made sense too...

Anyone else have any ideas? Should I add *more* Mg?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Should I be wondering whether its the CSM+B??

As you can see, clutching at straws here... :-s


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Laith, FWIW, what you describe with the necrosis of the stem, is a problem I have with any Ludwigias I have tried to grow. Recently I purchased a Ca test kit which showed almost all my gh(12) comes from Ca. I started dosing Mg, and problems I was seeing with A. reinickii seem to be straightening out. So I am now trying some L. repens again. Have you checked to see that your Ca/Mg ratios are OK?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Bert, that's a good point. My water report says that my tap water is made up of 82mg/l of Ca and 11mg/l of Mg), which is why I dose MgSO4 at water change. Isn't 5.7mg/l enough? That gives me a total of about 17mg/l of Mg.

I just did a test of the tank water:

Fe = 0.3 mg/l
PO4 = 2 mg/l
NO3 = 30 mg/l

I'm stumped. All I can think of is:

- Ignore the test kits and raise the CSM+B and KNO3 dosing...
- Try Flourish or TMG instead of CSM+B to see if it makes a difference...
- Change out the substrate.

Any other ideas out there?


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Laith,

Sorry to hear about your problems. 

I would take a turkey baster (not sure if they call it that in Geneva) and plunge it into the substrate. Suck up some substrate solution and then carefully remove and put it in a cup. Run your test kits on it and report back. Honestly, I don't think it's your substrate. When I've had problems like this in the past, it related to some plastic pots I had put into the aquarium. I think Paul also experienced problems with plastic.

Also, I would test your tap water and get true readings on it. Report back.

Buy yourself some good quality activated carbon and run it in the system "actively" for a few days. If you have access to Poly filters, I would also run those for a few days. What filtration do you currently use?

Lastly, I would stop the 50% water changes and run PPS for a while at least. This will give you an idea of your tank's nutrient consumption and will highlight issues easier.


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## Plattykins (Apr 3, 2005)

Do you think there is a problem with the heating cables? I don't necessarily mean that they are providing warmth or not, but I'm thinking that if you look under the gravel where the bubbles are coming from, what do you see? It may be an issue from elsewhere under the gravel and not exactly where the bubbles are coming from, rather, it is just where they happen to be to be exiting from the substrate. 

I don't know much about heating cables, but I do know that bubbles from the substrate is not a good sign. If everything else seems fine, can you check to see that your cables have not become deteriorated in any way? Perhaps your can you disturb the gravel enough to see if something else under there is causing the trouble.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Laith said:


> Ever since I went away for a month in January without being able to fertilize the tank, I've had strange things happening to plants.
> 
> When I got back all of the crypts had melted and a lot of the plants looked in bad shape.
> 
> ...


Laith,

Vacuum the substrate in 1/2 area once a week for two weeks.
Pull plants out, clean well, replant. Clean filters, scrub glas, equipment as needed.

Check the CO2. 
The only time I have seen this is if something is very wrong or if I just tossed the plants in the tank floating and ther weeds underneath rotted.

Substrates can go sour, I've been helping a number of folks with heavy Discus loading recently and they had loads of wood, Fish and had not cleaned not uprooted their weeds in a long time. I pull up lots of "mud" in these tanks and this needs removed.

Tanks with swords/pruning only the tops are the most likely candidates.

You are left with only two real options since the dosing is supplying enough of the nutrients/we assume their is ample light: CO2 and the substrate.
I'll assume the filter is cleaned often etc.

This will reset and restore your tank back to a well settled relatively "new" but established tank. It's basic work and over time, people do not seem to tend their substrate or move it around much, too much mulm build up is bad.

In new tanks, mulm addition is good.

In tanks over a year or two, high loading from critters, lots of driftwood, you ought to vac the gravel in 1/4-1/3 or 1/2 sections till you have completed the entire substrate once a year for routine maintenance.

I've always done this as a matter of habit, but have noticed folk's tanks that do not get tended have many issues and algae even if their dosing is perfect.

Once the gravel is vacuumed, the tank balances out well again. 
I've redone 6 Discus tanks(just redid a 180 for a SFBAAPS member) and have seen the results.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

The cables will initially pull more mulm into the gravel, but once it's clogged, it does not help. Vacuuming will free up the clogging.

I've never found cables to be useful personally and I've used them for about 10 years on seven tanks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

3rd annual Plant Fest July 8-14th 2005!
[email protected] Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Thats some very helpful maintance information, thank you. I think all to often hobbiests, my self included, do not actualy know the correct cleaning prcedures. I do not gravel vac my tanks due to the fact that the entire substrate is covered with plants. I never pull up stands of plants and vac under them unless I am redoing part or all of the tank. I tend to have high critter counts and lots of wood so I do get lots of mulm build up. I dose correctly, have plenty of light, CO2 (honestly) and the substrate itself is good. I am starting to assume also that the little issues i have with algae, etc are due to the "dirtiness" of my tanks. 

Thanks for reminding us about the importance of thourough cleaning.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Thanks Tom, that's what I was beginning to suspect; the substrate is causing the problem but I couldn't figure out how or why...

I may take this opportunity to get ahold of some Flourite and replace the substrate completely.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

If I decide not to change out the substrate at this time but instead do a thorough deep vacuuming as Tom has suggested, I presume I'll be left with plain gravel and leftover mulm.

Should I add anything to the gravel substrate or just let it be and keep my water column ferts up to good levels?


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