# DIY attitude bad for the hobby?



## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

I always run into threads where people criticize people for spending to much on ADA equipment, rimless tanks, light fixtures, etc. I don't understand where the attitude that going cheap with a planted tanks is the best way to go. It seems that whenever I walk into a LFS, they cater to reef enthusiast. There are plenty of reef people that spend tons of money on there tanks. When you spend the money, I think planted tanks look just as nice as the high end reef tanks. So why encourage people to spend less when it hurts the hobby?

Scape is in the process of getting a LFS to carry ADA products, mainly because people have shown the owner that they are willing to pay for the high end product. Lots of members on this forum are finally investing in their dream tanks. I've got boxes full of DIY junk. It's great for people that are just getting into the hobby. I just don't get why we don't have more of the crazy go-all-out people you find on reef central.


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

I think it's an awareness issue, bolstered by stores that push high-end, expensive reef systems and high-dollar wild-caught fauna. Just take our area here in SoCal ... even the shops that want to cater to planted tank enthusiasts aren't "there" yet. 

I think our instant gratification society also dislikes waiting for the plants to fill in.


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## taekwondodo (Dec 14, 2005)

first-off, it's all about the fun - I've had lots of fun building things for my reef tank and my planted tank. (I don't think I've save much dollar wise because with every DIY project, there is always a need to buy that tool I don't have yet but always wanted.  ) Also, there's a lot of cool stuff to make and nothing feels better than patting ones-self on the back when done.

So far I've built Calcium reactors, Kalk reactors, DIY hoods and stands (cabinet quality - better than what I'd get at the LFS), MH+Actinic DIY lighting, protein skimmers, dursos/overflows, acrylic sump/refugium, and drilled my own holes for my reef tank - on the serious side I've saved mega money doing it that might have prevented me from entering and trying a reef.

For the Planted tank I've also built several CO2 reactors, overflows, return spraybars, dursos, DIY PC lights and even a cannister filter (out of 4" ABS pipe - ya gotta see this thing  )...

In the end, I think I appreciate the hobby more not just because of my tanks, but because I have a finer understanding of why these items are needed and/or wanted and the physics of how they work to enhance my tanks.

And if you check out many of the reefers out there you will find that a _good deal of them_ depend on DIY for many of the items they have (PSs, CARs, KRs, lighting, etc...).

In the end does it hurt the hobby or it's distribution outlets? I don't know. I've seen a shift in the last few years (at least for me) where several of the LFSs in my area have gone the way of the dodo.

Sure, everyone blames Petco, Petsmart and the internet, but I think the reality is that many stores offer poor quality crap, have poorly educated staff (not all stores, just the bad ones) and don't look for a customer and sell fish-tanks with bubbling castles and divers - instead of selling aquariums. I can think of only 3 (2 planted and one reef) excellent stores within 80 miles of me with 2 more being "just OK" - and I live in an area with several million people...

However, I have to say that I no longer have to drive to Oakland/Albany (plants) or Milpitas (reef) or SanFran (plants) - I can just post to aquaticplantcentral or reefcentral FS/FT forums and find a much wider selection. I think the BBS/Forumns are growing to be the largest competition for plants and/or corals. BUT - I'll still go to these stores and buy from them if I am in the area.

In the end, I think the hobby will survive and grow online - and only the special stores - those that focus on the customer and his needs at competitive prices will do well...

sorry, guess I started on track (DIY) then went off on a tangent...

- Jeff


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

... and you don't have to leave your hometown to find garlic for your fish!


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## Erirku (Oct 5, 2004)

IMHO, ADA is a great product, for any Aquascaper who has an eye for aesthetics. What do I mean by aesthetics? Well, when you first start off, you may want alot of stuff cheap. But in the end, you spend alot of money. You may feel fine with all the DIY equipment at the begining of the hobby, but later in the end you want what everyone else has or want to show off. Whatever the reason maybe, it is all about the eye of the beholder! 
If you don't care for ADA stuff, then don't complain about, "How expensive it is".
IMO, ADA is for people who take Aquascaping as a serious hobby. Like I read in another thread about ADA's items, they are there to cater to your needs. 
I don't mean to step on anyones toe's or offend anyone, this is just my thought and opinions. Thanks, Eric.


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## Aaron (Feb 12, 2004)

DIY is not a detriment to the hobby, but an aspect that keeps things fresh and evloving. Once we all buy into the dogma of ADA and Amano, the hobby stops growing. Not knocking ADA, I am just saying that this would be a boring hobby (to me) if all I needed to do to have a nice tank was to buy a package and follow the directions.

In the forums here, I have seen some pretty ingenious stuff. Gomer's experiments with LED... too cool! Some other member posted plans for a dosing pump that ran off of an air pump... that was pure genius and ground breaking! Many of these projects are not done to defray costs, they are done to try something new... make the hobby relevant to their lives. 

I for one love to DIY. I made my own tank out of acrylic with specific dimensions to suit my vision. I built a light fixture out of aluminum, modeled after a fixture I saw in an interior design mag. I altered my Fluval to accomodate a reactor and a drain pipe to make water changes easier. This summer I am building my own stand, using veneers and double bevel marquetry on the legs... just because it's pretty. For me, this hobby extends way beyond the confines of a glass box with water in it. 

I do understand what you are getting at though. I find it annoying that people knock ADA just because it is expensive. The culprit is not DIY, it's just people being cheap.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Folks,

You should have seen the hobby 10 years ago!

I have nothing against a DIY attitude. In fact, I enjoy DIY as much as the next guy. I also enjoy saving money where possible. What I don't agree with is the villainization that is sometimes attributed to companies making planted aquarium products.

If you search the APD archives you will see many instances where this is the case. Constant calls for full disclosure of formulations and complaints about profit margins. 

In my humble opinion, it won't be until a commercial venture has the stubborness to deal with all of that and, nevertheless, make big investments in product development and promotion that our hobby will grow in any material sense (at least in the US). This is how things happened with ADA in Japan. It wasn't until Amano started promoting the hobby through the AquaJournals that the hobby really started to take off.


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

like math there's more than one way to get where you want to go.

i like DIY but DIY things look DIY...[blame my rotten workmanship!]
eg co2 reactor...

Kudos to fellas that have carpentry skills to make great looking cabinets. there a chance to turn hobby into a business if you're good at diy.

is DIY going to hurt lfs? don't think it will. we'd just be spending our money elsewhere in the hobby... fish, plants, decor etc.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Though I have no personal experience with ADA products, from all I have seen and read about it, I am certain they are top notch. But surely you're not suggesting that the only way to get lfs's to put more of an emphasis on planted tanks is to get them involved in ADA products? There is plenty of room between ADA and DIY. For me, I take much more pride in the little 10 gal tank stand I made from left-over wood scraps than the 50 stand I bought at the lfs made from particle board. 

I think there's a market for ADA products, just like there's a market for Mercedes Benz cars. On the flip side, however, there's a much larger market for Honda and Toyota, ie, the rest of us with AGA/Oceanic type tanks and diy reactors, etc. You have to reach to the masses first - the promotion of the hobby, the dissemination of information, etc. I don't believe that, in the US, at least, folks will jump into planted tanks via the ADA route - it's just too pricey for the average person. But show them what can be done with a simple 10 gal tank, decent lighting, Excel, and ferts. Start with that. Then the bug hits - you want a larger tank with pressurized CO2. Then perhaps when you can save up the $$, you might venture into 'ADA land'.

Just my 2 cents worth of ramblings.


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## TetraFreak (Mar 15, 2006)

I see no problem with DIY at all.

Living in So. Cal and being sole support of my family of 4, the need to same money is first priority if I'm going to keep up with this hobby I love! I see DIY as an affordable way to enjoy planted aquaria and still being able to put food on the table for my family.

As for the LFS' being hurt by the DIY, no way. They're hurt more by online selling at much cheaper prices through sites like eBay & Aquabid. I was in my LFS not that long ago and was mentioning to one of the guys there that I had just gotten an insane deal on a 4 x 55W CF fixture...well, the lady that runs the store overheard this and basically tried to go off on me about it and even asked..."do you buy your fish online too?" Basically I let her know that if THEY had decent prices on the hardware, I'd be buying from them instead of "online". But $85 delivered for a Jebo 220W CF Fixture was simply too good to pass up. 

I still buy fish at that LFS but that's because they do have an awesome selection and their employees actually know what they're talking about!


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## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

This whole discussion boils down to one thing....individual preferences. You will always have the frugal minded, and the "money is no object" trains of thought. I subscribe to the latter. I like the DIY projects, don't get me wrong, hell I was in the process of making intakes & outlets for my Eheim filter out of clear PVC before I saw the ADA products. The truth is if you have an eye for detail & quality, DIY projects will never trully satisfy when compared to quality manufactured items. So in the end I would say no that I don't think DIY projects will hurt the hobby overall because there will always be people willing to spend the money on quality produced items.


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## raven_wilde (Nov 16, 2005)

Another thing that needs to be considered here is that some of us, although we may _want_ to drop $200-$300 on a good set of lily-pipes from ADA simply can't afford to... so I don't think its fair to equate those who are willing or able to spend lots of cash on equipment as being any more serious about this hobby than those of us who can't.

Using my situation as an example: as a college student without a trust fund I just can't fork over the money required to "do the hobby proper" even though it _is_ a very serious hobby for me that I am totally passionate about... a walk around my tiny three room apartment would illustrate that as I think I currently have more tanks than places to sit!

CO2 systems are included in this... I would absolutly love to be able to hand over a fat wad of cash for a good Milwaukee regulator but at this point in my life I'm just going to have to settle for soda pop bottles drained during an all nighter and chopsticks ganked from my favorite sushi bar if I want to participate in the hobby as fully as possible.

And I also agree with those of you who touted the actual 'doing' involved in the DIY process... its a great brain exercise, assembling reactors and lighting assemblages... and yeah, because of it, I feel I've learned a lot in the process...

There's also kind of a MacGuyver-ish appeal to it, making something useful from next to nothing, only you don't have to have a mullet and duct-tape.

So I'm all in favor of DIY, and even if I could afford to buy the top-o-the-line products, I think I would still be totally interested in the processes people discover to get the same results themselves.
My 2 cents.


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

Re: The nice reef stuff

It's not the DIY mentality, in fact to generalize I find them much more DIY oriented than the plant folk. People drill their own tanks, buy non-aquarium pumps and chemicals (like zero-valent iron) much like we do, make their own alarm systems, auto topoff, auto feeding, etc, etc, etc.

It's simply volume. There are WAY more reef keepers than planted tank people. Take a look at the attendence numbers for MACNA, my wife went to one (and Ghazanfar made a similar comment to me), there are more *company reps* than total number of people at the AGA conference. Ask Jeff Senske about his reef to planted tank ratio in terms of sales. Look at how many reef specific publications there are, etc... 

It's much more popular, thats why they get the nice stuff - more room for niche producers. DIY-wise, they're doing much more complicated and expensive projects then we do. So if you want nicer niche items, give a friend a clipping and get them hooked on planted tanks 

Jeff


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Art_Giacosa said:


> Folks,
> 
> You should have seen the hobby 10 years ago!


Really? hehe

10 years ago folks had fewer choices and less understanding.
Many did DIY because there are/were few options, there was no choice.

I think DIY allows the both types of views folks to enjoy the hobby, I think the end game is that DIY helps the hobby much more.

How many of you tried DIY CO2 before buying a gas tank?
Tell the truth............

How many of you use KNO3 and not SeaChem's Nitrogen?
Tell the truth...........

How many of you can/would make a diy CO2 reactor vs buying one?
Tell the truth......

There are many things that are DIY we do even if you buy ADA's line.
There are many products we tend to buy no matter what from companies, it depends on the product, availability, the purpose and role it plays in the tank.

We can DIY tanks for that matter, but very few folks build their own tanks, I'm one of the few that has, but I'd rather not given a choice.

I do not think I've ever brought a Stand other than for stacking for the iron wrought types.

But some folks being cheap is a fun thing to see who can out do the other.

Dupla caused a mess with the cost that exceeded ADA back 20 years, there was a lot more reaction to that, but the good that came from that: CO2 gas injections sytems were popularized, folks added Trace elements. Cables smables........laterite platerite........some things clearly were marketed but not integral to why the system worked nor looked good.

What looks good and and is useful is a two folks question.
Sometimes this is best addressed with DIY, sometimes a company.

Reef folks are very willing to modify and pay through the nose.
Ask the average reef person what type of test kits they have vs a FW person.

I spoke to several reef clubs in the last couple of years on aquatic marine plants, I went to 6 homes and each person had a full bank of Lamotte test kits, balances, volmetric flask, they really tested and went all out. I've still never seen a single plant person that's taken it to this level other than perhaps myself.

I think fewer folks over seas outsiode the USA are more inclined to do the FW plant thing, folks here that are really into it and gears for $$$ and aquariums tend to go reef.

Hopefully that will change and marine plants are one way to start.
that gets FW folks interested in marine and vice versa.

I see one complementing the other with Marine/FW and DIY vs company bought stuff.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Any hobby is an individual undertaking. I enjoy growing plants in an aquarium. I don't enjoy the fish nearly as much, but do want them there for added interest. My main hobby for years was wood working and otherwise making things. So, I combined my interests and did a lot of DIY projects for my aquariums, from stands and canopies to CO2 reactors and bubble counters. All of that provided me with a lot of entertainment and satisfaction. When I found I wanted more light I purchased an AH Supply light kit, rather than try to make something - I enjoy that too, but don't regret having the fun of making my own first.
As far as harming the hobby goes, DIY can't do that. The hobby is not about providing profit for other people. That profit comes from them providing products we want at a price we are willing to pay. If no one does that, then they are "harming the hobby", I suppose. ADA tanks don't yet appeal to me, and price isn't the reason. If they ever do appeal to me, I will buy one or a knock off if that's all I can afford. Meanwhile I enjoy my hobby and it shows no signs of harm.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

From a viewpoint of economics there are some interesting points to be made. In a free market things will usually seek a price that is acceptable to both buyer and seller (supply & demand). This is sometimes not true in small markets and when there isn't enough competition, but in most cases, if there is money to be made, other suppliers will soon offer a similar product for less money (look at what is happening to Python).

Wealthy people often got that way partly becasue they can spot a deal. Anyone can easily see that KNO3 is dirt cheap and works just as well as the pre-dissolved stuff in a bottle. A pre-mixed product is only slightly more convenient and no more effective than dry chemicals. Most reactors on the market are pretty expensive and IMO they don't work as well as something I can make in 30 minutes from a few dollars worth of PVC pipe and fittings.

I enjoy DIY projects but admit that in my years of poverty I was motivated mostly out of necessity. I'm planning on a large "dream tank" this fall. Funds for this aren't limitless, but for the first time in my life I'll have the financial ability to do it right the first time. Even so, I'll continue to use dry ferts, DIY reactors, and a DIY lighting system since it's pretty hard to beat AH supply's units. I'm pretty sure that I can make a light canopy that will look much better than anything on the market. With a little research it's easy to find cooling fans that are almost silent. Try finding that anywhere else. If I thought ADA or anyone else's stuff was superior I'd probably use it. I think the lilly pipes are pretty cool looking, but why bother? Just put an ugly green spraybar behind the plants at the back of the tank. Their aquascaping tools make me laugh. Sure they work, but you can get even better quality from medical supply companies for less money. Pretty simple economics in my book.

If local suppliers or LFS's can't provide quality products at a desirable price then they deserve to go out of business. Consumers reward those who provide goods or services that are unique, less expensive, or of superior quality compared to their competitors. If the internet fills this need better than a shop, then that's just the way it is.

Every single piece of equipment that is used in the hobby started out as someone's DIY project. Every once in a while a person comes along with an idea even better than the first guy's.

One thing might be better with commercial products is safety (on average). It's pretty easy to electrocute yourself or create a small flood with DIY projects gone awry.


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Dupla caused a mess with the cost that exceeded ADA back 20 years, there was a lot more reaction to that, but the good that came from that: CO2 gas injections sytems were popularized, folks added Trace elements. Cables smables........laterite platerite........some things clearly were marketed but not integral to why the system worked nor looked good.


This is very true, we owe a lot to people like George Booth for having an open mind and open wallet  He was one of the earliest adoptors of uber-expensive German CO2 equipment (which was the single biggest technological leap we've made), and some (discredited) toys such as substrate heating cables. He was also spreading the word on the net, which was something we lacked in the past. A smaller community like this one thrives on long distance communication.

The truly good stuff will find its way to the top, the expensive fluff will eventually fall out of favor.

Jeff


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

JLudwig said:


> This is very true, we owe a lot to people like George Booth for having an open mind and open wallet  He was one of the earliest adoptors of uber-expensive German CO2 equipment (which was the single biggest technological leap we've made), and some (discredited) toys such as substrate heating cables. He was also spreading the word on the net, which was something we lacked in the past. A smaller community like this one thrives on long distance communication.
> 
> The truly good stuff will find its way to the top, the expensive fluff will eventually fall out of favor.
> 
> Jeff


The irony of George and I was I had two set ups, one for well heeled clients, one for my stuff at home which was DIY and more focused on observations, less on testing. I used DIy CO2 at home for 10 years, but knew what the CO2 tank did and the trade offs each had.

I ended up learning more about each and being able to focus on solutions to these trade offs.

I had more Uber Dupla set ups than he did to compare to as we talked.
The clients had the full line, everything except the tank pretty much.
Cables, Lights, all the ferts/KH/Gh booster, laterite etc. The net certainly has made DIY much more possible and better.

I think a great deal came out of the APD discussions back then. 
Most of the questions asked and posed here are re hash mostly.

This is much more the time of scaping development and the undersdtanding of why various methods all work and what trade offs they pose.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

> I just don't get why we don't have more of the crazy go-all-out people you find on reef central.


I think it because Reefers are generally always trying to one-up and Out-do each other, whereas Planted tank folks seem to be more laid back and willing to get along.....

Some people will always think that money is the deciding factor....

Impress Me: Do twice as much on Half the Budget. Show me You have a Brain-Factor and not just a Greed-Factor.

I've met some really Stupid people that have money--Just because they're Greedy.


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## KungPaoChicky (Oct 11, 2005)

DIY, high end, plant tanks, or reef tanks, we're all in the same hobby together. I've had expierence with both high end and DIY end of the spectrum. One is no greater than the other. As said before its a personal preference type thing. With out the DIY mentality Amano would not have come up with half the products he has now. ADA has set the standards as far as quality goes (IMO), yet there are up and coming companys such as Elos that offer another option to the ada product. In years to come I see the plant tank hobby blowing up. More hobbiest more vendors and more plant based companys. Lets give credit to the artists that can not only grow plants but aquascape them into something beautiful, reguardless of high or low end products.:supz:


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

My humble opinion is without the diy masters of yesteryear there wouldn't be the things you can buy over the counter. 
Amano is a DIY expert himself thru trial and error.

Even now without diy as raven says a lot of young people wouldn't have had a nice planted tank.

for me, i've gone without diy till i needed to buy duplicates of equipment for every new tank i want. this made diy very attractive in terms of economics.

the lfs still holds some appeal as they are now like mini markets- air conditioned, rows and rows of products from all over the world.
the beautifully made and packaged products from ADA tugs with invisible magnetic force...

ADA is life after DIY...still saving...:-({|= 

if you can afford it by all means. 
APC is a great mythbuster place to sort out the useful, useless and usable.


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## sarahbobarah (Sep 5, 2005)

Personally, if I need something for the tank and I have the supplies, my instant gratification dictates that I DIY it. 
Which leaves me more money to spend on plants - something I think would propel the hobby further.


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## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

ADA is for the more serious hobbiest? hahaaa... that's a good one. i chuckled quietly to myself when i read that.

seriously though... being able to spend gobs of money on anything doesn't make a person the more serious as opposed to the person who spends time instead to achieve the same effect.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> being able to spend gobs of money on anything doesn't make a person the more serious as opposed to the person who spends time instead to achieve the same effect.


 Well said, Freydo.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

There always has been and always will be two different types of hobbysits for different reasons. Those who do not mind spending the money to get what they want to accomplish and those who will do anything not to spend money.

I have never set up a DIY C02 system, and I never will. I will not buy Amano stuff if I can buy something cheaper that will work just as well. Everything is always driven by price, functionality, simplicity, and percieved value.

Some people look down on those who want nothing but a brand name, but then there are people who look down their nose at people who want to build everything themselves. What drives the market is products that fall somewhere in the middle. Getting stores interested in ADA is not the answer. Getting stores interested in the plants period is what is needed. Convincing them that they can make money catering to this hobby is what will benefit everyone.

If people did not care about price, we wouldn't have AH Supply, or PETCO, or Petsmart, or Orbit lighting or Milwaukee Int.... everything would be made in the USA instead of China. We wouldn't have aquarium start up kits, there would be no PMDD/EI fertilizer....


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2005)

:deadhorse 

(Actually I just always wanted to use that smiley.)


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Ooooo, now that *is* a great smilely. 
But that horse is not dead enough looking

I can build a tank DIY and have it look quite nice, but it's easier for me to buy a nice ADA tank.
I can use ADA aqua soil and it's easier for me to grow plants(I have some new tank data coming out on this note).

On the other hand, I can buy KNO3 and it's easier for me to use. But, many folks have no clue and glaze over when you talk anything with a chemical name. So there liquid pre made SeaChem Nitrogen ferts, ADA fert products have their place.

The hobby is certainly helped by having ADA products in the LFS's. Likewise, Seachem products and other products and a good supply of weeds at the LFS.

It makes it much easier for the LFS to maintain in an aesthetically pleasing way.

It makes the customer more successful and simplifies things for them.

A bag of ADA AS, some PS special, a bottle of Excel and a JBJ nano cube is a simple routine that works very well and is much less dependent on ferts. Growth is slow but nice, ferts are not needed for a fair amount of time.

This might not be for folks here, but for a new person?
Adding some excel and maybe some SeaChem Nitrogen, PO4, K+, traces once twice a week is not bad.

Easier than CO2 gas certainly.

Once they get some success at this level, they will get pulled in and learn more.

Some folks come in and want CO2, the whole sheebang.
But most don't and LFS are also tough to train to use CO2 and keep decent plants.

They need something easy more than their customers I'd say.
LFS have less time than most anyone. They need something pre done and easy both on the sales in.... and set up and maintainece end.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## HydroBot (Apr 26, 2006)

DIY attitude CREATED the hobby.


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

It's funny how in all the other hobbies I've been a part of, the thing to do was to see who could spend the most to impress other club members. Any hobby involving cars comes to mind.

Now this is what I'm talking about,

http://www.pbase.com/sangster/fish_tank&page=all

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/24356-medicinemans-260-gal-open-top-tank.html


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## kaj41354 (Jul 20, 2004)

Ok- I have to pipe in on this. I come from the mostly DIY crowd but, I think both have their place. I love to do woodworking as well as my aquatics which is a source of pain in my household. My wife will want to go out and buy something (new desk, table, etc) and I always want to build it. for me it isn't necessarily the economics because many times it costs as much or more that the purchased item. For me it is the pride of saying "Oh you like that - I built it". Of course at that point whenever someone in the neighborhood has a DIY project they come knocking. I think this is all personal preference and the hobby can't do without either side. If it wasn't for the DIYers we would never have some innovations we have and if it wasn't for the one who buy the manufactured items we wouldn't have all the products we have to choose from. Long live them both!!!


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

*Hi*

OK i had to jump in on this. If not for DIY i would not be in this hobby at all I am disabled at home dad. Now I don't and can't work. This means that I cannot afford the high end stuff so Diy is my only option besides not to have a planted tank at all. To top it all of sometimes I have to struggle to get the diy stuff.

So are you saying that if I can't afford the high end stuff I have no business in this hobby at all????

Think before you speak because if you really think about it there are people out there that can and will spend the money on the high end stuff. Even if the diy way is cheaper.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

I think the ADA stuff is the butt ugly way to go, all that crap hanging exposed on the tank. Visible panty, er, water lines. The photos of those tanks are complete frauds since the equipment is removed and the glaring lights just above are cropped out of the picture. How the tank inhabits the room is more important, IMO.

I like my own DIY approach, thank you very much:


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

It does not have to be either/ or. It is not a question of which is better. There are tons of people who have absolutely no desire to ever build anything themselves. These people are not mechanicaly inclined and do not enjoy bulding things. I am one of those people. If I buy something that I can not figure out how to put together without looking at directions, then I do not want it. The rest is marketing.


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## Toppy72 (Jan 16, 2005)

I agree Twood. 

The ada tanks look awesome in the photos, but in the real world do you really wanna have an extremely bright light, throwing what I would call light pollution, all over your living room?


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## Script404 (Jun 30, 2006)

That tank looks pretty cool, I've never been worried about tank light liighting my living room, saves me using a dimmer switch or a small lamp, and I find the greenish sorta light you get quite pleasing tbh.
As for DIY, its just cost. I'd love to have a beautiful rimless glass tank with all the trimmings, but theres no way i could justify the expense at the moment, so I am gonna have to stick with a 2ft cube bought for about £40 second hand, and make a new lid myself. Cost difference between making a lid and buying one, havent checked prices recently but I'm sure I could spend the money on something better like appeasing the missus with a meal when she asks me just how much that new fish cost.


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## gnatster (Mar 6, 2004)

There is certainly room for those that want to DIY and those that want to buy within the hobby. DIY in no part drags the hobby down. All the innovations come from people that experiment with creating new things or better ways to accomplish a process that is already being done. With DIY the Reef hobby as we know it now would not have anywhere near the volume of products available. Most all that stuff was adapted from another use by DIY'ers that then went commercial or inspired a company to construct the item. 

Robert has a great point as well, some of us are just not capable when it comes to DIY. Nothing wrong with that, we all have our strengths and for some it's DIY and others it's wallet opening skills. Neither should be slighted.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

gnatster said:


> we all have our strengths and for some it's DIY and others it's *wallet opening skills.*


LOL!!!!!!

Feel the burn....... 180g tank = lots of fun, but enormously expensive, even with lots of DIY stuff. Cost = Y multiplied by the tank size squared. Y is your particular personal level of gadgetry need.

There are many roads to Rome. As long as the hobby is enjoyable, environmentally friendly, and in some form or another, within the reach of most people, who really cares if the equipment comes out of a box or from the workbench? Having options is a good thing. The prototype of any great product was someone's DIY baby.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

It comes down to money for me too. I like DIY projects after they're done. LOL Using Diana Walstad's method, I don't need expensive substrates, CO2, water ferts or high lighting. soil and sunlight do just fine. I like planted tanks, tho it's less about aquascaping and more about a healthy environment for my aquatic creatures.

TWood: I see you got your new water ironed out!! Your tank is looking great! You oughta come post some pics on GAB and give us an update!


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

Sometimes the DIY stuff comes out better. Love the tank Twood.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

DataGuru said:


> I like planted tanks, tho it's less about aquascaping and more about a healthy environment for my aquatic creatures.
> 
> TWood: I see you got your new water ironed out!! Your tank is looking great! You oughta come post some pics on GAB and give us an update!


Hey Betty,

I agree, it's more about a healthy environment than pretty pictures. The whole 'aquascaping' thing has become too much of a fetish. (And I never could get those nylons on the shrimps.)

I just about gave up on this water until I discovered a cool way to lower KH, using a swimming pool technique described here.

Here's a more recent picture at our new home, taken shortly after a major trim:










Still, I had to find all new species of plants that would thrive. For a while I was breaking one of my own rules: Don't try to grow plants that won't thrive in the tapwater I have.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

For me, DIY is a mix between necessity, application and appearance. I have very limited funds at the moment but access to a woodworking shop and metal working skills. I built the cabinet and hood for my 50 gallon spending less than $50 on material and finish; hence necessity as I could not have afforded more. Appearance and application go hand in hand in this case as the hood is sized to fit on top perfectly, have no light spill and allow the hoses to enter yet was very attractive. I have an advantage with the shop access and skills, but its still DIY.

My most recent project was a metal light stand/hanger for my 15 gallon. Cost me all of $10 to make, looks as good as the ADA one, and is suited to perfectly fit my tank and stand setup.

Lets not forget the enjoyment factor. I personally hate hearing people bash the DIYer as I find the DIY aspect to be a fun part of the hobby. If I were not designing or building something for an aquarium, it would be for my house, or car or christmas, etc. I'm a jack of all trades, I enjoy that and quite honestly, the people that say DIYers have no buisness in the hobby since it is so expensive hire people like me to keep their house from falling down around their ears, or fixing a simple light switch or dripy faucet. I say those people are helpless and useless and should keep their yaps shut!


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## phanmc (Jun 21, 2004)

Saltwater setups require a bigger investment overall so going cheap isn't really an option. Yet there are plenty of DIY modifications going on, especially in the nano-reef area where modifications are a necessity to fit as much light and appropriate filtration.

It's not the DIY mentality that is the problem, it's the mentality of "my way is better than yours" that's causing friction between people. We all have our reasons and justifications to do things a certain way and no one wants to be told that their method is wrong or inferior. Yet for some reason, people always feel the need to justify their reasons and methods by belittling other choices.


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## Blacksunshine (Aug 11, 2006)

DIY is great for those that are firm in their crafting skills. But you'd be suprised how many more people would rather just get a ready made item rather then put more effort into doing something themselves. 
But in general I dont think that aquascaping is as wide spread thru the general aquarium hobby as we would like. this is why that section is so much smaller then the reefs. Because of the DIY segment and the low call for high end systems it just dosen't make sense for your regular LFS to really keep that stuff on hand. And thus why they only keep the bare basics. Once you really get into this nitch of tank keeping you will most likley find better sources for stuff online and cheaper then what your LFS could offer it to you for anyhow.

IMO anyhow.


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## Moo (Apr 27, 2006)

Since when was individual creativity up for debate?
Isn't that what this hobby is built on...creativity?
We don't all have the same exact tanks do we?..the same needs for our tanks?

I agree with Dennis.

As long as I'm not killing fish or any specimen then I've never heard of laws that prohibit DIY projects. I get a great sense of enjoyment from things I do on my own..or even with help.
Me and my dad (a Carpenter for over 45 years) just finished my flush mount enclosure for my 58 gallon. I'm sorry but you can't buy THAT stand anywhere...so we built one.
But there are somethings that I would rather buy than build. And sometimes it's not always practical to do one or the other. But I get what fits My Tanks needs.


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## abnormalsanon (Jun 6, 2006)

I just finished grad school and I'm trying to make ends meet in an entry-level job. I don't particularly care if someone else thinks DIY hurts the hobby--it doesn't hurt my wallet! Personally, I find the OP's comments a little off-putting. It makes it sound like only people who have a ton of money to throw around are moving the hobby forward...maybe I'm misinterpreting but that's what I'm getting out of it.

If DIY serves your purpose and meets your standards, great. If it works for you, why should it matter if it's not ADA brand? Likewise, I wouldn't criticize someone for spending thousands on a tank if they can/want to. Personal choice.


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## schaadrak (Aug 18, 2006)

If there are enough people interested in this hobby, there will be competitive pricing. In every LFS I've gone into in north Florida (Jacksonville, Tallahasse, and Pensacola) their reef tanks on display look amazing, well landscaped properly manicured, well maintained, and stocked full of beautiful, attractive, and colorful inhabitants. However look for a FW planted display tank... they don't have one. They may sell plants and have a FW display tank with a couple plants in them, but usually those are very sickly looking plants and the variety is kept to about five or six, three of which are usually terrestrial house plants with different names (I once asked the store clerk why they did this and got "I just clean the tanks, dude" as a response). Acually the stores that have the most variety of true aquatic plants are the chain stores, but they are not housed in a very attractive setting.

If the LFS's want more people buying into this hobby, why don't they show what a properly done planted FW tank can become, the same way they display reef tanks? Most people are more intimidated by saltwater tanks anyways, so why not steer them towards a very attractive planted tank?

On a side note, does anybody in the Jacksonville area know of a good LFS? I only know of one, but I haven't ventured over to the Westside yet.


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## lailastar (Aug 28, 2006)

Its about the art more than the equipment. How you get there is a constantly evolving battle (at least for me). I have learned so much, and sometimes its all just a matter of opinion. My lfs "The FIsh Net", in Fort Laud...they don't sell gimmicks. Lucy has been in business 30 odd years, and she tells me everytime I go there not to believe the latest inventions as they are usually quite unecessary. All her tanks are individually filtered, with cheap lees corner filters and the fish and plants are super healthy! NOw compare that with most of the other overpriced aquatic stores that have central filtering (disease spreaders) that probably cost a fortune - and I can't say that the fish look happy. Healthy? Not like Lucy's. So in my opinion- if you think you need the expensive stuff to be happy, by all means buy it- but if you can be happy without it, more power to you! If you go to Lucys -check out her clowns that are not for sale- Now-thats happy fishes!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

In aquascaping, there are people of all sorts. There are those who like to dabble in everything, and then there are those who like to specialize. In the specialists there are all sorts. There are individuals who only care about making the area around the tank look great via cabinets or house plants. There are people who only care about photographing fish. There are people who only care about growing specific plants (moss collecting and tonina cultivation seem to be hobbies in and of themselves these days). There are people who only care about the health of their fish, and people who only care about having fun. There are also people who only care about the art, and there are those who care most about competing through photography and scaping.

I personally happen to be, basically of the last type. There are those (including me) who only care about getting down to the scaping-- I don't care how it's done, who does it, but I want the equipment, for my aquascape, now. 

If ADA is the one who can best supply what I need, then I will buy from them (and have).

People just have to remember that we all have different goals, asperations. 

The serious artists who specialize only in scape design and photography, should not scoff at hobbyists who just want to enjoy planted tanks, or the skilled DIY guys who love making their own complex systems (after all, those artists might end up needing those DIY guys one day if ADA or others can't provide what they need for their vision, heh heh).

Inversely, the guys who DIY shouldn't scoff at those (like me ) who choose to put their time, creativity, and effort in other pursuits.


--> Can't we all just be friends! <3


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Jan 27, 2004)

First off - DIY isn't for everyone anyway. For every DIYer, there are
10 others who cannot figure out which side of the screwdriver goes
into the electrical socket. DIY actually helps the hobby.
The reef side is chock full of examples of 'DIY' projects that have 
actually been embraced by companies and put into 'production'.
On the planted side - you have a few examples too. When Seachem came out with Seachem Nitrogen / P / K - where do you think that idea came from?

Our issue is that the aquatic plant hobby simply isnt as popular in the US.
No company is going to go out there and invest in products UNTIL they
see people are out there willing to spend money. Right now, relative to
the reef hobby, we don't even have the people, let alone people who're
willing/able to spend the $. To give you an idea of the gap in the scale - I think CMAS + WAMAS - the two 'local' marine aquarium clubs in my area - have somewhere around 1200 members between them. The MACNA (AGA Convention of the Marine world) budget for last years convention in DC was $175,000.00. Compare that with a planted tank club / convention.

So, does the DIY attitide hurt the hobby? I don't think so. I think what
hurts the hobby is that we don't have enough people doing it. Local clubs
should be FOCUSED on trying to get new people into the hobby. Get it
to grow. ADA products have helped tremendously in this area. They make
it easy to grow plants - so its better for the newcomer - and for the
'advanced' hobbyist, who's grown everything there is to grow the hard way
and now can simply focus on the aquascape vs. trying to figure out the
latest deficiency.


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## joephys (May 9, 2006)

I take exception to the statement that serious people drop lots of money on equipment. Who is the more serious car guy, the guy that rebuilds a 57 chevy, or the guy that goes out and buys a rolls? I would be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 times, the 57 chevy guy is going to car shows, reading car magazines ect, while the rolls guy is just trying to show off. I am not saying that that is true about everyone that buys ADA, but saying that DIY's aren't serious is just flat out wrong.

If there was equpiment that was available that was good quality and cost less, there would probably be less DIY going on. Being in college I coudln't justify spending 200 bucks on a new light strip, so I built one for 30 bucks with CF lighting. Its not the greatest looking thing in the world, but it works for now. Maybe someday when I am done with school I will spend the money on equipment, but I would never put down DIY'rs. The best thing that could help the hobby would be good equipment that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. That would allow the average joe that walks into a fish store thinking that he wants a tank, to see a planted tank and not think that its too expensive for just a fish tank.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> So, does the DIY attitide hurt the hobby? I don't think so. I think what
> hurts the hobby is that we don't have enough people doing it. Local clubs
> should be FOCUSED on trying to get new people into the hobby. Get it
> to grow. ADA products have helped tremendously in this area. They make
> ...


There is the key right there. Every serious hobbyist and plant club should be doing whatever they can to expand the hobby in the USA, or whatever country they are in, including supporting and expanding the U.S. market. Support anything that promotes the hobby. Encourage stores and online retailers to sell the plants you want by buying from them instead of Joe Blow from Singapore. Bring your clippings into your local store instead of selling them online.

There is really only one American outfit that could mass produce HC and other plants here in the USA... Florida Aquatic Nurseries. You want to see HC widely available in this country cheap? Like for 2 or 3 dollars per pot or per mat? Then go the the FAN WEB site get their address and fax number and flood them with requests! Buying plants from overseas does absolutely nothing to help the U.S. market. It is the market that drives the hobby in the long run. The larger the market, (the buying hobbyist) the more local stores focus on it, the more magazines focus on it, and more people join the hobby. It is a snow ball effect.

You have issues with me, fine. There are over two dozen other online American suppliers you could encourage to import these plants, but when you go outside this country directly, or reley soley on the goodwill of others to give you plants then that is where it ends and nothing is gained in expanding the availability of plants in this country.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

joephys said:


> I take exception to the statement that serious people drop lots of money on equipment. Who is the more serious car guy, the guy that rebuilds a 57 chevy, or the guy that goes out and buys a rolls? I would be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 times, the 57 chevy guy is going to car shows, reading car magazines ect, while the rolls guy is just trying to show off. I am not saying that that is true about everyone that buys ADA, but saying that DIY's aren't serious is just flat out wrong.


Is this comment directed at me? If so, than first I'll assure you that no one is looking down on "do-it-yourselfers." As someone who, in line with the earlier joke, "can't tell which side of the screw-driver goes into the socket," I've got a lot of respect for DIY'ers. Note too that not all DIYers do it because of budget-- sometimes they do it in order to create something completely new. Especially this aspect of being able to make something new, is of high value to "serious artists" since it gives them more options as well (that is, if they themselves aren't also skilled DIYers).

Also, look at my language-- I didn't say "serious person"-- serious at what?

I said "serious artist," being specific. If it's art, the aquascaping that is, that I am talking about, it doesn't matter whether the lights are DIY light strips, or ADA SOLAR, what matters is what's underneath them in the tank, neh? (Note, for those who think aquascaping is also about the outside of the tank bear with me for now; I'm just talking about contest-scaping)

That's why the car analogy doesn't work here . . . we're not buying/tweaking the aquarium equipment to show off aquarium equipment-- we're doing it to MAKE the aquascape.

Whether a painter is serious or not, is not determined by whether he bought a canvas or if he stretched his own.

I actually also hate stretching my own canvases and prefer to buy pre-strethed ones; but someday I might need a DIY canvas-stretcher colleague to show me how to build a good canvas because the store doesn't have one of the dimensions I need.


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## joephys (May 9, 2006)

greenmiddlefinger said:


> Is this comment directed at me? ...


It wasn't directed at you. It was more of a general statement. Post #5 is where it was stated that ADA is for people who take the hobby seriously. I was refering to the hobby in general, not aquascaping. I don't even mean to direct that at that person, just the attitiude in general. Buying all the best expensive things = being more serious about something than someone else.

I usually don't use analogies because you can always argue why they don't fit. In anycase, I still think that the one I used is a good what for what I was refering too.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Ah yeah, if you mean the hobby in general you're 100% right, and so is the analogy.


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