# CSM+B Substitute?



## markhem (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi - I posted this question yesterday. Got alot of views but no replies. Maybe I didn't give enough info, so I'll try again. Can anyone see why this product substitute product wouldn't work?

These are the ingredients of CSM+B
Iron 7.0% 
Magnesium 1.50%
Zinc 0.4%
Copper 0.1%
Molybdenum 0.6%
Manganese 2.0%
Boron 0.8%

These are the ingredients in Plant Prod Chelated Micronutrients Mix
EDTA Chelated Micronutrients: Actual
Iron (Fe) 5%
Manganese (Mn) 2%
Zinc (Zn) 0.4%
Copper (Cu) 0.10%
DTPA Chelated Micronutrient: Actual
Iron (Fe) 2%
Boron (B) (actual) 1.30%
Molybdenum (Mo)(actual) 0.06%
EDTA (minimum) (ethylene diamine tetraacetate.) 42%
DTPA (minimum) (diethylene triamine pentaacetate.) 13%

GENERALAPPLICATIONS:
Use 3 grams (g) of Chelated Micronutrient Mix per 100 litres (L) unless the product is being used to correct a deficiency (see below). This rate will give the following micronutrient concentration in solution:
Iron (Fe) 2.1 ppm
Manganese (Mn) 0.6 ppm
Zinc (Zn) 0.12 ppm
Copper (Cu) 0.03 ppm
Boron (B) 0.39 ppm
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.018 ppm

Thanks.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Markhem,

I am not sure it is possible to answer your question. The issue is not only what the nutrient values are, but what exactly what chemical compounds are used to deliver those nutrient levels. Iron for example can be delivered by several different compounds. Some chemical compounds are safe for aquatic life, some are not. Just because a compound is safe for plants does not mean it is safe for fish and invertebrates. The nutrient percentages compared to CSM+B are roughly equivalent, although the iron percentage is 30% less than CSM+B and iron is a critical nutrient. Both contain copper which can be a problem with some invertebrates such as shrimp. 

I saw your post earlier and I believe it said you were in Canada. CSM (now called Nutritrace) is manufactured in Canada by Plantex and should be available there. You would have to add your own Boron (B).


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## OTPT (Sep 27, 2010)

In short, yes. 

That's CMM, from the same manufacturer of CSM.
And if I had a choice between the two, I would choose CMM over CSM.

CSM+B vs CMM in more details (from post 4 and on)
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...back/31571-best-micros-te-fertilizer-pps.html


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

+1 for OTPT's comments.

I use CSM+B for micronutrients but I only dose at 1/2 the recommended levels and I dose Flourish Comprehensive which has macros and all the micros listed above and more. It seems to work.


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## markhem (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks OPTP for pointing me to that thread on CMM. Very helpful link. Even though CMM is not tested for aquariums, as Salt pointed out, it seems that with all the attention paid to CSM+B, and all the use CSM+B has had, there is already a track record for this product. I will definitely purchase some.

As for adding magnesium...I have access to pottery supplies, and am wondering if anyone has anything to say about using dolomite to add trace amounts of magnesium and calcium. The dolomite I use for pottery is a 200 mesh made by Imasco product data sheet

CaCO3 55.0% 
MgCO3 43.0 % 
Acid insolubles 1.4 % 
Ferric oxide Fe2O3 0.6 %

If I were using this in trace amount I was thinking the acid insolubles and the ferric oxide would be negligible. Any thoughts?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi markhem,

The Dolomite I have seen is not very soluble. Why not use MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) available from your local drug store, inexpensive, easy to dissolve, and dosage information available in the Fertilator?


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## markhem (Feb 16, 2012)

Seattle Aquarist, yes, that is sensible to use epsom salts, which I was doing until I started EI. I haven't been doing EI long enough to be confident about my gH. Just looking ahead for novel ways to add magnesium when I need it. I was thinking dolomite would be an easy way to get trace amounts of both magnesium _and_ calcium. But the solubility factor is a good point.

Have you tried using calcium carbonate as a calcium source? I have 50 pound bags of these compounds, and it would be nice to be able to use them and spend my money on lights, and co2, and stuff like that.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi markem,

Just call me Roy! I have really soft water with typical hardness from the tap of 0.5 dKH and 2.0 dGH. If I don't address the soft water issues some species I grow definitely show deficiencies in their growth habits. 

I have tried many different additives to increase the hardness including, calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, ground coral, and cuttle bone for Ca and MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) for Mg. 

It all became a big pain. I ended up either over or underdosing my Ca and Mg and messing up my Ca:Mg ratio (4:1 suggested).

About 18 months ago GSAS invited Tom Barr to do a presentation for our club. Tom is from the San Francisco area and also has soft water. He said that he doesn't worry about dKH as long as it is above 2.0 but he does target a 5.0 dGH level. As a result I changed to Seachem Equilibrium to increase my hardness and use the handy calculator on their website to target 5.0 dGH. Life is much easier and the plants and fish seem to like it.


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## markhem (Feb 16, 2012)

Hey Roy, thanks for the feedback. I think my dolomite idea may be more trouble than its worth, especially since the calcium and magnesium are directly tied to one another, and there's the solubility issue. Will keep Seachem Equilibrium in mind when I learn to calculate water hardness.

I did put some dolomite in my substrate, a light sprinkling on the bottom of the tank, 12" x 24". Any idea how long that will last before it gets used up?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi markhem,

It kind of depends on the grain size, the acidity of your water, and how dense the dolomite is.....who knows it may still be there when you re-do your tank!


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Hey markhem. There are many aquarists who use Plant Prod Chelated Micro Nutrient Mix, and its been added to http://calc.petalphile.com if you want it. Most the stuff you're looking at in this thread is on that calculator.

I've not used Mg(NO3)2, but if I was looking for a novel Mg source I'd look for some of it first.


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## markhem (Feb 16, 2012)

Hey wet, thanks for that reference. Makes it so much easier to figure things out with some good tools.


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