# Is El Natural for soft water fish too?



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi everyone!

Just recently I was told about the Walstad method and it interested me because I have a betta that does not like currents. When I have the money, I would like to cycle his tank in this manner but what I would like to know is if this way of cycling can be done for soft water fish too or is it only for fish that prefer hard water?

Thank you.:-D


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

It works better with hardwater, but you will find many with softwater fish. I'm setting one up next week that is mostly softwater and I will harden the water slightly to get better plant growth. Mostly from what I've seen hardwater is for better plant growth.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Thank you for your quick response!

So all of the plants listed in this site won't do well in more neutral waters?(7.0-7.4pH)


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

I did my tank (my son's actually) because of the same reason (see link in signature). Too much current. the 2gallon tank was doing a full water change in 2 minutes.

My water started off 7.4 and went up to 8.2 pH. This maybe due to gravel and the shell and I'm still trying to figure this one out.

I got a small aquarium hood at Petco, bought a compact from marine land and put it on top of the aquarium (bought a small piece of acrylic but no big on that), and a simple $6 timer.
12 hours a day of light and the anacharis is growing like a weed, and the fish is having fun patrolling his territory.


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

BTW, so you will have no current then? Are you using a sponge filter at least?

Well are you more concerned about pH or gH & kH?

A low pH (6.8pH) will work just fine with most plants, its the gH (general hardness) & kH (carbonate hardness) you need to worry about.

I would be most concerned about buffering (kH) in a softwater tank, because they are prone to pH shifts (big ones).

TuetonJon, has a softwater tank with no buffering additives I believe. (and where we live there is not kH in our water! ) *I take that back I beleive he did end up adding something to his filter, my bad*

TeutonJon78's NPT Journal - 24g Nanocube:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/37037-teutonjon78s-npt-journal-24g-nanocube.html


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> Just recently I was told about the Walstad method and it interested me because I have a betta that does not like currents. When I have the money, I would like to cycle his tank in this manner but what I would like to know is if this way of cycling can be done for soft water fish too or is it only for fish that prefer hard water?
> 
> Thank you.:-D


In my 10-g Walstad neon tetra-only tank, there is no filter. Thus, there is no water current.

I oxygenate the substrate by having aponogeton, dwarf lily, and onion plant. They have floating leaves reaching the water surface to take the aerial advantage. To help keep algae in control and provide the fish some hiding places, the tank also has hornwort. Other plants in that tank include duckweed, water lettuce, water hyacinth, etc. There is no additives other than the meal for the fish. The water pH typically fluctuates between 6.9 and 7.1. Occasionally, it went as high as 7.2 (I have a Pinpoint probe providing continuous reading). The KH and GH stay around 4 when I cared to test them. The tank has been going on for seveal years. The fish look healthy and playful.

Hope the above information will be useful.


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

That is a lot of floating plants! Have any pics? It must be a jungle.


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## mrbelvedere138 (Jan 18, 2006)

For soft water fish there is no reason why it couldn't work. Most fish and plants can do well when the pH dips even below 5. I would say just don't add dolomite/limestone like most folks do. I think that a lot of people doing El Natural adhere perhaps too closely to the original system. Adjustments can be made.


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

I would still say keep your kH low at your own risk, but it has been done successfully. (and not) I think its important to note that problems can arise, and fish do die from pH dips and I wouldn't consider it healthy either. But, don't let it keep you from having softwater fish either way!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

01krisp10 said:


> That is a lot of floating plants! Have any picks? It must be a jungle.


It is indeed a jungle, but a easily configured one because it is formed by the hornwort.

When I first tried the dwarf lily, I placed it at the center of the tank. It quickly overtook the whole tank and made it a dwarf lily jungle. Similar experience with aponogeton and onion plant.

Then I re-planted the tank by moving the dwarf lily to the back left corner, the onion plant to the back center, and the aponogeton to the back right corner. That significantly slowed down the growth rate of the dwarf lily but it is still doing fine because I make sure that there are at least a couple lilly leaves floating at the water surface as suggested in Ms. Walstad's book.

The new placement left the rest of the tank a wide open space and the neon tetra didn't like it because there were no place for them to hide when they wanted to. Thus, I let the hornwort float as a jungle (with couple stems weighted down to spread the hornwort from top to bottom). That jungle takes up about one third of the tank's space. Some of the neon tetras just loved that jungle. They play among the hornwort or station there when they want some timeoff. Since the hornwort is not a solid barrier, they can still keep an eye on the open space. When they see the neon tetras in the open space start feeding, they come out to feed as well.

Neon tetras have quite a personality and are fun to watch as long as they do not perceive of threat from other species (even a little shrimp roaming around can cause them to be on guard).

As to a preference among the plants, I don't have any. Each of them has its own advantages.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Sorry for not getting back to all of you right away. I was having problems with the internet yesterday.

01krisp10, I do not have a filter of any kind in my tank. I did try a sponge filter made for tanks of 1-3 gallons(his tank is 2.5 gallons) and even though it was on the lowest setting, he did not like it and he got stressed out from it.

As for the water, the pH from the tap is 7.8. I was told what the kH and gH was but I can't remember what it was right now. I do know that my water is hard so I'm currently in the process of lowering it because it's starting to damage my CT's fins and tail.

bartoli, the info you gave me definitely helped! It gave me an idea as to what plants I should add to the tank. I'm also going to look into the Pinpoint probe. That would be a good thing to have. 

newbie314, I love the way your son's tank looks! I know my betta would have a great time in a tank like that!

mrbelvedere138, that makes me feel better knowing that plants can still live in more neutral to softer waters. The last thing I wanted to do is make the water more hard for the plants when that hard water is not so kind to my betta's fins and tail.


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## Velvetdragon (Mar 17, 2007)

Red_Rose said:


> mrbelvedere138, that makes me feel better knowing that plants can still live in more neutral to softer waters. The last thing I wanted to do is make the water more hard for the plants when that hard water is not so kind to my betta's fins and tail.


Why hello, Red Rose! ;D Thanks for posting this topic -- as a betta keeper I was wondering too. I figured I'd leave out shells/lime/etc. but I wasn't sure how plants would fair without the addition.

Our water here is soft. This is great for the carnivorous plants I raise, but I didn't know if that would kill the plants in my aquarium.


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## TeutonJon78 (Nov 10, 2004)

Nope...lots of people are raising plants in portland with no problem (myself included). The real problem of our water is lack of buffering. that is why some people add lime or crushed coral to the tank. I added 1 tsp of crushed coral and it is providing plenty of buffering for my 24g. It is in a nylon sock in the filter for easy removal if necessary.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Velvetdragon said:


> Why hello, Red Rose! ;D Thanks for posting this topic -- as a betta keeper I was wondering too. I figured I'd leave out shells/lime/etc. but I wasn't sure how plants would fair without the addition.
> 
> Our water here is soft. This is great for the carnivorous plants I raise, but I didn't know if that would kill the plants in my aquarium.


Ah! A familiar name!

Finding out if the plants could handle water that was soft was one of my main concerns. Our water is hard and crappy so I know the plants would love it but my betta doesn't. That's why I'm trying to lower it and the last thing I would want is for the plants to die because of the water.


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## dirtmonkey (Mar 12, 2007)

My Betta does fine in harder water... 5GH, 8.5KH; and high pH ~8 esp. around midday... it was going to be a CO2 supplemented tank, so the substrate is a natural gravel from the local beaches, lots of seashell in it. Body size and long finnage are doubled since I got him a few months ago, very active and healthy. Maybe it's not just hardness, but the particular minerals in your water. You could use soft water and then try buffering as they mention above with coral or shell... then you're not in such a delicate balance that could crash on you so easily...?

Vincent
Wow, lots of other Portlanders in here.


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