# Ceratopteris thalictroides OR siliquosa ???



## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Well there isn't much information about ceratopteris

Are thalictroides and siliquosa the same plant ? Are they different ???

In the web some people say those names are synonyms, but I dont think so.... 
I am sure I have C.thalictroides, but suddendly i notice another kind of fern in my aquarium, they are growing together , they are very similar BUT not the SAME

I hope you can help me

Regards
Gerald


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's a Link to a long discussion about the various forms of _Ceratopteris_.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Yes, botanists treat C. siliquosa mostly as synonym of C. thalictroides: http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/tro-26600076

But Ceratopteris thalictroides is a variable species and some different forms of the species are in the aquarium plant trade (but I don't know how many). It may be that nurseries and traders use synonyms because they need different names for different forms. And the naming isn't consistent. E.g. the "Vietnam" form of C. thalictroides is sold i.a. as "C. siliquosa".

Regards,
Heiko


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

+1 for miremonster's comments. I really like this species, probably because it is the first plant I was ever able to grow 40+ years ago. As a result I have read up on it a lot. Everything I have read indicates that C. thalictroides is the correct name of C. siliquosa.


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## old 97 (Jul 25, 2011)

Piggy back query.

Is this the plant in question?


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

old 97 said:


> Is this the plant in question?


Your plant looks like Ceratopteris cornuta in the Kasselmann aquarium plant book. How high is the plant? Is it still rather young, and if You have bigger/older ones, have they more dissected leaves, like these?:
http://www.tropicalfishandaquariums.com/Plants/Watersprite.jpg
http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Plant,361.jpg

"Ceratopteris cornuta" is a somewhat complicated case because it is partly treated as synonym of C. thalictroides, but apparently there is no consensus.
At least aquarists and traders mean by "C. siliquosa" the rather filigree C. thalictroides forms.

Apart from that, in the hobby the name C. cornuta is often misapplied to C. pteridoides.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi old 97,

I think that miremonster is 2 for 2; that looks like Ceratopteris cornuta submerged growth. That is the other species that I grow in my tanks.


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## old 97 (Jul 25, 2011)

miremonster said:


> Is it still rather young, and if You have bigger/older ones, have they more dissected leaves, like these?:
> .












It has no trouble hitting the water line (@ 22 inches or so) in short order.

Under good light the leaves(?) stay fleshy like that - near palm sized.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

old 97 said:


> It has no trouble hitting the water line (@ 22 inches or so) in short order.
> 
> Under good light the leaves(?) stay fleshy like that - near palm sized.


OK, so the leaves of the big plants have broad lobes as in Your photos, not narrower lobes like this?:
http://www.aquarienpflanzen-shop.de...tPS-700579166647F76DD4859AB0995CCF17E2909.jpg (1 leaf (frond) of water sprite is the whole stalked thing growing from the base of the plant, being lobed to pinnate)

The reason of my question is, I'm not sure if there are really Ceratopteris cornuta plants always with broad lobes as in Your photos as long as they are submerged, or if they are only juvenile plants getting finer lobes or pinnae on submerged leaves when they are full-grown, as in my links.


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Sorry I couldnt reply befeore because I had some troubles with my internet's connection

Thanks everyone for your comments but I am still confused

1) I have exactly this plant and always called it Ceratopteris thalictroides...am I right?








a detail of the leave(photo of my own)









2)I have this plant too , growing next to the supposed thalictroides...After searching i think it is Ceratopteris siliquosa...am I right?
It is not my photo









3)Now, in the jungle of my country (Peru) this plant grows...After searching in a botanical book of aquatic plants in my country , this is described as a Ceratopteris pteridioides.
Here some pictures

















4) About C. cornuta, I have never seen Ceratopteris cornuta

What do you think people

Regards
Gerald


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

HeyPK thanks for your link, really nice 
Well this is my personal opinion based in my understanding but i could be wrong:

About the photos you posted
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-id/71340-please-help-id-plant-2.html
-The first picture , I think looks like C.thalictroides, but in emersed or floating form, because my supposed thalictroides doesn't look like that in submerged form
-In your second picture , the C.thalictroides looks like the one I have and posted in the photo
but the C.pteridoides looks rare to me because i have never seen the thinner leaves; only the wider ones at he base , i thought all the fronds were like that
-And about your first picture of siliquosa, I was pretty sure it was thalictroides
the second picture looks like the siliquosa I already have (i knew the name recently searching in the web)

What do you think? , am I completly confused about the names? hahaha

Regards
Gerald


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Hi Gerald,


Bonzo said:


> 1) I have exactly this plant and always called it Ceratopteris thalictroides...am I right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it's one of many _C. thalictroides_ forms. In Germany plants like this are i.a. called "Filigranfarn" ("filigree fern"). And it may be that the same plant is also called with the synonym "C. siliquosa" in the trade.



> 2)I have this plant too , growing next to the supposed thalictroides...After searching i think it is Ceratopteris siliquosa...am I right?
> It is not my photo


As mentioned above, C. siliquosa is a synonym of C. thalictroides. This C. thalictroides form with rather "streamlined" fronds I know as C. thalictroides "Vietnam".



> 3)Now, in the jungle of my country (Peru) this plant grows...After searching in a botanical book of aquatic plants in my country , this is described as a Ceratopteris pteridioides.
> Here some pictures


A Ceratopteris from Amazonian Peru... very interesting! There is a lot of exciting aquatic stuff in Your area.
I would have thought Your plant is C. cornuta. But C. cornuta is native of Africa, not America. On the other hand, plants like Yours are also called _C. thalictroides_(!), as well as the more filigree forms. See drawing on the left from Flora of North America: 
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=40829&flora_id=1
and this C. thalictroides in a Japanese rice paddy: http://fern.la.coocan.jp/Parkeriaceae/Ceratopteris thalictroides/Ceratopteris thalictroides.htm
and in Singapore: http://www.natureloveyou.sg/Plants-C.html

About Ceratopteris pteridoides, see below.



> 4) About C. cornuta, I have never seen Ceratopteris cornuta


Meanwhile I doubt if true C. cornuta from Africa is cultivated as aquarium plant at all!
Here an emersed C. cornuta in the natural habitat: http://www.westafricanplants.senckenberg.de/root/index.php?page_id=14&id=314

Ceratopteris pteridoides: occurring in tropical America. Only swimming or emersed, said to be not able to grow submersed.
Leaf stalks thick, spongy. Sterile leaves of floating plants only notched or coarse lobed.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=138
Mature plants develop filigree emersed leaves with spores, with thick leaf stalks, looking very different from the floating leaves, see Flora of N.A. drawing on the right: http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=40829&flora_id=1
and here: http://www.plantgeek.net/images/plantpics/cpteridoides2.jpg

Regards
Heiko


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Hi Heiko,

So, siliquosa is just a variety of C. thalictroides



> Ceratopteris pteridoides: occurring in tropical America. Only swimming or emersed, said to be not able to grow submersed.
> Leaf stalks thick, spongy. Sterile leaves of floating plants only notched or coarse lobed.


Well the amazon Ceratopteris pteridoides only can be can be maintained floating in ours aquariums, you could try to put them in the substrate but in a little time they will float again. In the photo that i showed you they are submersed because a little rock was tied to the bottom.



> Mature plants develop filigree emersed leaves with spores, with thick leaf stalks, looking very different from the floating leaves, see Flora of N.A. drawing on the right: http://www.efloras.org/object_page.a...829&flora_id=1
> and here: http://www.plantgeek.net/images/plan...eridoides2.jpg


Nice pics, of course the amazon Ceratopteris pteridoides has emersed leaves but I have never seen like that (so hardy, specially in the plant geek's link)
why? 
-Could be because we use the plant in breeding aquariums and perhaps there is not enough light for the ceratopteris to grow,.
-I dont know if in their natural habitat can grow like that and I've never traveled to that specific area in the jungle to see how the look like. Here in the trade you can find small floating plants only.
I guess i'm going to buy one to see how the submersed and emerged leaves grow with good conditions.
-Could be a pteridoides variety perhaps. I just know in the botanical book I mentioned before they described as a Ceratopteris pteridoides.

Regards 
Gerald


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Hi Gerald,


Bonzo said:


> So, siliquosa is just a variety of C. thalictroides


Synonym, not variety. It may be that aquarists, traders and gardeners use "C. siliquosa" as name for particular C. thalictroides forms (the more filigree ones), but not the botanists.



> Well the amazon Ceratopteris pteridoides only can be can be maintained floating in ours aquariums, you could try to put them in the substrate but in a little time they will float again. In the photo that i showed you they are submersed because a little rock was tied to the bottom.


As I wrote, IMO the submerged plants in Your photo aren't C. pteridoides, but a form of C. thalictroides with rather broad lobes. Or a 4th species I forgot to mention: _Ceratopteris richardii_. This sp. is distinguishable morphologically from forms of C. thalictroides only by number of spores per sporangium (16 instead of 32). Both C. thalictroides and richardii occur i.a. in South America. http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=233500341

-C. thalictroides & C. richardii: leaf stalks rather narrow (as in Your photo), lower lobes or leaflets of the leaf mostly not opposite but alternate.
-C. pteridoides: leaf stalks thick, inflated (see plantfinder photo), lower lobes rather opposite.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=106195

Problem: there are also mentions of hybrids between Ceratopteris species in the literature... I don't know about watersprite hybrids in the aquarium hobby.



> Nice pics, of course the amazon Ceratopteris pteridoides has emersed leaves but I have never seen like that (so hardy, specially in the plant geek's link)
> why?
> -Could be because we use the plant in breeding aquariums and perhaps there is not enough light for the ceratopteris to grow,.
> -I dont know if in their natural habitat can grow like that and I've never traveled to that specific area in the jungle to see how the look like. Here in the trade you can find small floating plants only.
> ...


A photo from Christel Kasselmann in her aquarium plant book shows a C. pteridoides with such dissected emersed spore-bearing leaves in the Rio Yanayacu, Peru. I've seen huge emersed C. pteridoides in greenhouse culture in nutrient-rich water or soil. I think the conditions in most tanks are not sufficient for C. pteridoides for reaching the mature/fertile stadium, or too large plants are removed.

Regards 
Heiko


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Hi Heiko,



> Synonym, not variety. It may be that aquarists, traders and gardeners use "C. siliquosa" as name for particular C. thalictroides forms (the more filigree ones), but not the botanists.


Ok, now it´s clearer than water.



> As I wrote, IMO the submerged plants in Your photo aren't C. pteridoides, but a form of C. thalictroides with rather broad lobes. Or a 4th species I forgot to mention: Ceratopteris richardii. This sp. is distinguishable morphologically from forms of C. thalictroides only by number of spores per sporangium (16 instead of 32). Both C. thalictroides and richardii occur i.a. in South America. http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.as...n_id=233500341


For most authors only four species are recognized:C. thalictroides, C. cornuta, C. pteridoides, and C. richardii.
You could be right, based on your sources the amazon Ceratopteris of my photos might be a form of thalictroides or richardii...How the spores can be visualized in ceratopteris? I see nothing with a naked eye.

Anyway, if there is a pteridoides here in Peru (as the literature says) maybe there's still out there in the jungle, not in my photo haha
Thanks for helping to understand a little more about Ceratopteris.

Regards 
Gerald


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Bonzo said:


> For most authors only four species are recognized:C. thalictroides, C. cornuta, C. pteridoides, and C. richardii.


Yes, although it might be more complicated not only by hybrids but also because of cryptic species within C. thalictroides, called the northern, southern and third type: http://www.springerlink.com/content/20w150g10875l3k1/
I don't have the full paper and I wonder how these types look like and if they match some of the watersprite forms in the aquarium hobby.


> You could be right, based on your sources the amazon Ceratopteris of my photos might be a form of thalictroides or richardii...How the spores can be visualized in ceratopteris? I see nothing with a naked eye.


Till now I didn't check watersprite spores, but on the fertile emersed leaves the tiny sporangia are hidden under the leaf margin that is curled (revolute) to the underside of the leaf segments, here in C. richardii: http://www.pnas.org/content/95/11/6222.full.pdf+html
The sporangia are written to be very brittle and it may be difficult to separate and count the spores within them under a microscope.

Regards
Heiko


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> I don't have the full paper and I wonder how these types look like and if they match some of the watersprite forms in the aquarium hobby.


I'll get it.


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Hi,



> Yes, although it might be more complicated not only by hybrids but also because of cryptic species within C. thalictroides, called the northern, southern and third type: http://www.springerlink.com/content/20w150g10875l3k1/


Yes, I'm sure it is a complicated work to determine the species and varieties, there is a lot to read and talk about.



> I'll get it.


It would be nice to know the information about cryptic species. 
Now that I see springerlink , this book comes to my mind http://www.springerlink.com/content/9h0j3024003pqr38/ , I assume it's about basic and important information of the four recognized species.

Regards
Gerald


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Hi, Heiko



> Till now I didn't check watersprite spores, but on the fertile emersed leaves the tiny sporangia are hidden under the leaf margin that is curled (revolute) to the underside of the leaf segments, here in C. richardii: http://www.pnas.org/content/95/11/6222.full.pdf+html
> The sporangia are written to be very brittle and it may be difficult to separate and count the spores within them under a microscope.


Now I realize it is difficult to count them, hehe

Here i have another interesting link http://matsuoka.xsrv.jp/floraNishin...ts/shissei/ma_gyou/mizuwarabi/mizuwarabi.html
I dont understad chinese, but in the figure 5 you can see the sporangia ( the transparent capsule) and the spores (the little yelow balls) inside . So you have to cut the leaf, right?

In the other photos you can see a little reddish thalictroides and it looks like a very strong plant, it can grows just with little humidity.

Regards
Gerald


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Hi Gerald,


> Here i have another interesting link http://matsuoka.xsrv.jp/floraNishino...izuwarabi.html
> I dont understad chinese, but in the figure 5 you can see the sporangia ( the transparent capsule) and the spores (the little yelow balls) inside . So you have to cut the leaf, right?


Yes, they cut off the curled leaf margin to show the spore capsules (sporangia).



> In the other photos you can see a little reddish thalictroides and it looks like a very strong plant, it can grows just with little humidity.


As far as I understand with google translator (Japanese => German), it's because of cold in the autumn, November 2007. The site is about threat of this species in Japan due to urbanization, modern methods in rice cropping etc. Apparently the Japanese name of Ceratopteris thalictroides is "Mizuwarabi".

Regards,
Heiko


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## Bonzo (Aug 7, 2010)

Hi Heiko,

So it was japanese... thalictroides seems to be considered a weed in rice fields and searching as "Mizuwarabi" I realized in some countries , thalictroides is eaten in salads.
Well, is pending the information about cryptics species.

Regards
Gerald


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

Dug out the old thread because of the cryptic species subject:

There's also a taxonomic revision of Ceratopteris thalictroides in the wider sense. http://www.researchgate.net/publica...rongn._(Parkeriaceae)._IV._Taxonomic_revision

Within the Ceratopteris thalictroides species group, they distinguish now:
- C. thalictroides in the narrower sense (one of the synonyms is C. siliquosa!) (formerly the "south type of C. thalictroides")
- C. gaudichaudii var. gaudichaudii
- C. gaudichaudii var. vulgaris ("the north type of C. thalictroides")
- C. oblongiloba ("the 3rd type of C. thalictroides")
- C. froesii (restricted to tropical America, very small plant).

Unfortunately they don't deal with aquarium populations of Ceratopteris. But I suspect that the finely dissected water sprite, sold i.a. as "C. siliquosa", isn't C. thalictroides sensu stricto but _Ceratopteris oblongiloba_. And I wonder if true _Ceratopteris cornuta_ is cultivated as aquarium plant at all. 
It would be great if some experts tried to ID the aquarium water sprite types.


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