# If you were to recommend a regulator?



## Catherine (Feb 22, 2006)

I have been researching my little butt off for over a week, and I don't know which regulator to buy. It is going on a 135 discus planted tank. Right now the tank has been planted for 2 weeks and only on low light until I can get CO2 set up. I have never had a pressurized system before, so I really need this to be goof-proof! I am afraid of making a mistake and ending up spending more money than I need to... it has to not only be reliable but economical.

I have been looking at:
aquariumplant.com BEST EVER regulator ($150) (comes with bubble counter This has a 3 year warranty, the only regulator to state a warranty. http://www.aquariumplants.com/AQUARIUMPLANTS_com_s_Co2_Regulator_The_BEST_p/co2-1.htm

Azoo regulator ($90) http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9895&N=2004+113779

Rex Grigg regulator ($140) http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/

I know the logic of you get what you pay for. I am leaning towards Rex's system because he seems to know what he is doing, but because I am such a newbie with these systems, I am afraid I won't understand how to set it up, and maybe the azoo one is capable of having the same reliability of the job at half the price. (Sounds lame, I know.. but my husband makes a big fuss over my tank expenses..:rant: ). 
Are any of these systems complete and ready to run? Do I need extra parts other than a tank and CO2 tubing? Should diffusion be intank, or external? 
I may add a controller later on, but I am not planning to do it now.. just go semi-automatic. 
So which should I pick?


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

I have a few posts in this forum about regulator and needle valve. The most important component is the needle valve.

Start out with a 5 lb tank ($62)
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2/C5.shtml

Connect a regulator to this tank ($41)
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulator/double/342.shtml

Connect the Fabco NV55 needle valve to the regulator ($20)...you could also request a FREE sample from your local distributor...YMMV. Search this forum for my post on P/N for the misc connectors and seals
http://www.fabco-air.com/distributors.html
http://www.fabco-air.com/pdf/Sec_12.pdf

Connect the CO2 air line ($5) to the needle valve. Set the regulated pressure between 10 and 15 psig.

Connect a one way stop valve ($4) to the CO2 air line...a standard plastic unit will do the job (my 9 years old "Tetra brand" plastic valve is still functional)

Run a 1' length of CO2 air line from the stop valve to the intake of your filter. Start out with about 1.5 bubble per second (3 mm diameter). I would recommend that you run CO2 24/7 (reliable and goof-proof). Gradually bump up the CO2 rate to achieve 15 to 20 ppm of CO2 in the water column.

You only need a crescent wrench to assemble these components. Total cost is between $70 to $80 without the tank. Keep the CO2 line as short as possible.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

On the Azoo, and I have used several, I find the needle valve un reliable, but I have gotten different style of Speed Control's or Low Pressure Rugulators and ran them in line, gotten for as little as $9.
Using this, I open the needle valve on the Azoo all the way and then use these guys to control the bubble rate.

The problem with the Azoo is that when you open it just enough to get the desired bubble rate, it likes to close itself back down and in a matter of hours to days, you don't have any co2 going into your tank.

I am leaning towards going the 24/7 method and looking back, I wish I would have not spent all the money for the fancy regulator with solenoid's and just did like Furballi above suggested.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I had just got one of these recently to replace a dual that I did not like, the plan is to open the splitter and use one of each of these for the fine adjustment.
I have not used it yet, but plan tonight.
I will post back to let you know how it went.
The price is good (actually a little bit better if you go thru him and not e-bay)

http://cgi.ebay.com/CO2-distributio...9007107QQihZ009QQcategoryZ66794QQcmdZViewItem


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

Catherine, I purchased the AP.com "best" regulator and have had it up and running for about a month now. This was my first attempt at pressurised also. I have to say that I am pretty happy with it. As far as simplicity it couldn't be easier. I bought a brass check valve from Rex and am using the RedSea diffuser from my old yeast setup. The things that swayed me toward this one was the price(they were 139.99 a month ago), the compact design and inclusiveness, and the 3 year bumper to bumper warranty. The one questionable thing about them is the low range of the regulated pressure gauge, it only goes to 15 psi. I believe Rex uses the same regulator body and he also has a new needle valve, and the advice is great. Here is a link to a discussion about the AP.com regulator you might find helpful http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...t/39261-aquariumplants-com-co2-regulator.html.
Brian


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

The links still aren't working, lets try this: www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-equipment/39261-aquariumplants-com-co2-regulator.html


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## ponyrandy (Jan 13, 2007)

OK you will have to copy and paste this : aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-equipment/39261-aquariumplants-com-co2-regulator.html


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

It says a lot about your character furballi that you would suggest that people lie to someone to obtain a free needle valve. Since this person will most likely only need one needle valve in a lifetime what grounds should they give for getting a free product?

Still waiting on the information about where I can get the Fabco valves for $10 each.

Very easy to set up.

1. Attach regulator to cylinder using a seal. Use a wrench to tighten regulator knob.
2. Attach tubing to regulator/needle valve/bubble counter.
3. Place check valve as close to tank as possible.
4. Check all connections to make sure you have a closed line to diffusion method.
5. Open cylinder valve all the way.
6. Adjust low side pressure to 10-15 psi.
7. Dial in bubble rate with needle valve.
8. Almost forgot. Plug in solenoid if regulator has one. This step should go between #4 and #5.


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## Tsquare (Feb 9, 2007)

I would research adding CO2 into the intake of your filter. I did and the only one that seems to be OK most of the time is an Eheim. Others may have problems with cavitation as they don't like the CO2 in there. I have Rex Griggs regulator including the Fabco valve and it has worked flawlessly for me. 
Gene


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## fishstein (Dec 12, 2005)

I also need another regulator with a bubble counter. Can anyone comment on this CO2 Adjustable Flow Pressure Regulator from Milwaukee Inst. 
Now Only: $89.99 from That Fish Place:

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/212799/product.web

That's a good price but I don't know how to evaluate the quality.

"Professional construction includes solenoid diaphragm valve with 1.5 meter power cable and bubble counter including micro adjustment needle valve."


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I do know that to be of good quality. Not the best, but for the price it is fine.

However, like furballi suggested and what I am about to be doing when switching over to the PPS method of dosing, is to run the C02 all day, every day at a slower bubble rate.
I am starting to be convinced that this is a better method, keeps your tank stable all the time, PH wise and it is closer to nature, the Co2 in nature doesn't magically turn off when the lights go off.
Of course, this is the route I am going to go, with no guraentees of success yet, but It is what I plan to do.

That being said, if you don't need the solenoid, then you can get the regulator furballi suggested for $43 or something, or even the single gauge regulator for $29

Then get any of the fine adjustments, the one I linked to off e-bay (used it last night, so far, so good) or any one Rex sells are top quality.

If you are open to try this, you will spend less on a regulator set up.

And if not, I don't see a problem with the Mil. brand. I have Azoo, JBJ and Mil. I like the Azoo least, then the MIL, then the JBJ best, but I know those who like the JBJ least and the Mil. best and not too many of my friends who use the Azoo.

You can get the JBJ from www.aquabuys.com for like $82 with the bubble counter and solenoid.


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## fishstein (Dec 12, 2005)

HI goalcreas,

What about the JBJ do you like better than the Milwaukee? Also, does the bubble counter on the JBJ attach near the regulator the way that it does on the Milwaukee? I like bubble counters that go there as opposed to those that hang off the side of the aquarium or those that are part of diffusers inside the aquarium.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.


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## fishstein (Dec 12, 2005)

BTW, I had been using the on-all-the-time C02 method, but wanted to move to a solenoid, not only to avoid pumping C02 when it's not needed, but to save C02 so I don't have to fill my tank as often.

Cutting off the flow when the lights are off would allow the tank to last more than twice as long. In addition, I don't pump enough C02 into the tank when the lights are on to cause huge swings. So I think that the best approach to avoid big swings is to stay below the level that causes fish any distress during the day, and to shut it off at night to conserve C02 when it's not needed at all.


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## fishstein (Dec 12, 2005)

Also, buffering your water with a combination of crushed coral and baking soda is a good way to avoid pH swings. I use the crushed coral as biomedia in my Filstar canister filter. In my case I need to add these because my planted tank houses cichlids from Lake Tanganyika.


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## Catherine (Feb 22, 2006)

Hmmm.. lots to think about. I am partial to the attached bubble counter too, it seems to be a little sturdier. Now I just have to overcome the SCROOGE in the house and get something ordered in!!
Thank you everyone for your ideas, I really appreciate it!
Catherine


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Yes the JBJ does have the bubble counter attached right to the unit.

I think it to be just a bit more heavy duty and like the needle valve adjustments a little better.
And it is nicer looking. All in all, just my preference for the JBJ over the Mil.

I prefer soft Acidic water and so do my fish, so I don't mind the low PH, and 1/2 the bubble rate for 24 hours as opposed to full bubble rate for 12 hours will pretty much last the exact amount of time.

I have been doing C02 with the lights for quite some time, and with switching to the PPS system, this is the recommended way and that is the main reason for going that route.

There is not really anything wrong with your methods either, just suggesting it in case you wanted to spend less on a regulator.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

I use a Milwaukee Regulator. It works very well for me. I keep my operating pressure at about 15-20psi and i havent had a single issue with fluxuating bubble counts. I run it 24/7, and so far so good. The only negative i will say is. To increase the bubble rate is a pain in the butt The needle valve has to be opened way up and then shut from there. But once your set your pretty much good to go.

I went this route because of the cost. I liked Rex's but i couldnt afford that much at the time. Soo I went with Milwaukee.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> It says a lot about your character furballi that you would suggest that people lie to someone to obtain a free needle valve. Since this person will most likely only need one needle valve in a lifetime what grounds should they give for getting a free product?
> 
> Still waiting on the information about where I can get the Fabco valves for $10 each.
> 
> ...


Many companies provide FREE sample to promote their products. Ever requested freebies from various websites? Most will only require an e-mail and address. For example, I received a free $20 Fluke VoltAlert last week simply by filling out an online survey. Do you understand YMMV? The easiest way to get a good deal is to exercise the gray matter between the ears!

You want to buy the NV55 for $10 so you can turn around and sell it back to others for $20? Hmmm...let's practice what we preach.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

That's not answering the question furballi. 

Where can I or anyone else get Fabco NV55 valves for $10 each.

Exercise the gray matter between your ears and tell us.

You bought it up. Now prove it. No talk about a "free sample". You said you could find them for $10. Now put up or shut up. If you can't answer this question within 24 hours then I and many other people will know you as nothing more than a liar and a braggart.

There is a difference between filling out a survey and getting a free sample. And it's lying to ask a place for a free evaluation sample when you never intend to purchase beyond the sample.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> That's not answering the question furballi.
> 
> Where can I or anyone else get Fabco NV55 valves for $10 each.
> 
> ...


In plain English...I DO NOT want to help you SCALP other aquarists. More power to you if you can negotiate a better deal with your local distributor. You said that the NV55 was a POS when I first introduced it to this forum! You obviously lack the technical expertise to "digest" the NV55's Flow Vs Number of Turns plot. So who's now touting the NV55 as the best cheap needle valve? Actions speak louder than words.

Large companies have budget for parts sampling. It's a way for them to promote awareness of their products. Some distributors will give out samples to anyone because they have excess stock and limited storage space! There is never an inplied obligation to purchase anything. That's how business is done in USA. Don't need to be a $1500/day consultant to figure that one.

Manufacturers also offer incentives to clear out old stock/warehouse. Ever seen those $50 to $70 items FREE after rebate? Your tunnel-vision logic assumes that one must lie to obtain the FREE sample.


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## yoink (Aug 31, 2005)

furballi said:


> In plain English...I DO NOT want to help you SCALP other aquarists.


Wouldn't posting the information do the opposite? Instead of getting them from rex, we could get them from your source for $10.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

yoink said:


> Wouldn't posting the information do the opposite? Instead of getting them from rex, we could get them from your source for $10.


Unless you live in S Cal or order more than a few units, I would pay the $15 to $20 by contacting the local distributor. There's also a chance that the valve will be offered FREE of charge for will-call pickup.


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## yoink (Aug 31, 2005)

furballi said:


> Unless you live in S Cal or order more than a few units, I would pay the $15 to $20 by contacting the local distributor. There's also a chance that the valve will be offered FREE of charge for will-call pickup.


So what is the difference if I get them from a local distributor for 15-20 dollars or rex for 15-20 dollars? I would rather someone that helps the hobby get the money than a CEO and/or shareholders. Rex would also have other things I might need, saves on shipping.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

So you must be a liar furballi.

You won't tell the whole damn community where they can get the valves for $10 each. There would be group purchases and everything. And if I could get them for $10 each I would not sell them for $20.

I buy the NV55 25 at a time. So it must be a special S Cal deal to get them for $10 each. And free for will-call pickup? A lot of places have a minimum order or charge for will-call. 

My distributor would also like to know where to get them for $10 each. They are one of the 10 largest Fabco distributors in the US and their cost is more than $10 each.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

yoink said:


> So what is the difference if I get them from a local distributor for 15-20 dollars or rex for 15-20 dollars? I would rather someone that helps the hobby get the money than a CEO and/or shareholders. Rex would also have other things I might need, saves on shipping.


My post deal with the availability of the NV55. The price is FREE to about $20. I never said that you must order from ABC instead of XYZ. It's your $.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> So you must be a liar furballi.
> 
> You won't tell the whole damn community where they can get the valves for $10 each. There would be group purchases and everything. And if I could get them for $10 each I would not sell them for $20.
> 
> ...


Your inability to negotiate a good deal on the NV55 makes me a liar? You claimed that you had to pay $18 to refill a 5 lb CO2 tank. My cost in S Cal is only $6. Therefore, I'm a liar?

My contribution to the community is to provide accurate information about the avalability and pricing of a high-quality/low-cost needle valve for aquarium use. The ability to acquire the valve at or below cost is up to the final user....YMMV.

I submit that you gave FALSE information about the NV55 when you said that the NV55 was inferior to the Clippard valve. Why? Perhaps to unload the existing supply of Clippard? Your logic about a defective NV55 does not hold water. If the performance of the NV55 does not live-up to its excellent published specifications, then shouldn't you contact the manufacturer for clarification. I'm sure they will send you a replacement unit, free of charge. Contaminant from the regulator can also clog a needle valve. Wouldn't it be logical to disassemble the valve and use compressed air to clean the orifice. Once the tapered needle is out, one can quickly determine if the seal and/or needle has been compromized.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

The cost to fill a 5 lb cylinder here in Portland is $18. CO2 is expensive here because 95% of it must be trucked in.

But aside from that. You are evading the question or changing the argument. This is what liars do when they are backed into a corner. All you have to do is back up the claim you made. Simply put there are many people wondering where they can get the NV55 for $10.

And just so you know. I'm sitting on 23 of the Clippard valves right now. I have sold 41 of the NV55 valves in the past month. I've sold three Clippard valves in the same time frame. 

And as I stated I had a bad valve from Fabco a few years back when I tested it. Fabco has confirmed that the valve had a defective needle. But then I don't have your eye and could not tell it was bad. You have that great X-ray vision that most mortals lack.

Again. Where can anyone of us get the Fabco NV55 for $10. 

Saying that YMMV is not good enough once you have stated that they are available for $10. You have to back up that claim. That or be branded a liar by everyone who reads this thread.


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## Tsquare (Feb 9, 2007)

I am still waiting for the source where I can just purchase NV55 for $10 let alone free.
Gene


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Rex Grigg said:


> The cost to fill a 5 lb cylinder here in Portland is $18. CO2 is expensive here because 95% of it must be trucked in.
> 
> But aside from that. You are evading the question or changing the argument. This is what liars do when they are backed into a corner. All you have to do is back up the claim you made. Simply put there are many people wondering where they can get the NV55 for $10.
> 
> ...


So you need another lesson in marketing? The MSRP for a 2007 Toyota Camry LE 4DR Sedan with AUTO is $20975. Educated buyers were able to purchase this vehicle for $18000. Hmmm, but isn't this below the 18700 invoice? Ah ha...all those people must be lying about their purchases. Do do see the fallacy of your tunnel-vision logic?

FACT #1: Fabco Air and its distributors *can* provide FREE sample of the NV55 upon request. *Anyone can contact the company for more information*. Why pay $10 when you can obtain the NV55 for FREE? The $10 unit price reflects a volume discount. Buy more, save more. That's why I posted the $10 to $20 *price range*. I never said that an individual can purchase *ONE* NV55 from a distributor for $10. I've seen them offered @ $8 each last year from a local distributor to make room for new inventory.

FACT #2: Local distributors are not required to sell the NV55 at MSRP. Competition and volume will drive down price. Dealer's cost is under $10 per unit.

If you have corrected 20/20 or better vision and have access crescent wrenches to disassemble the needle valve, then you should be able to inspect the SS needle assembly and the orifice/seal for damage. No need to invest in X-ray equipment.

Why didn't you contact the mfr years ago when the NV55 didn't live up to its rated specifications? Why did you wait for my post on the NV55 before revisiting the NV55? Let's see...I must be a very good liar...*good enough to convince you to retest the NV55*.

I don't have to prove anything when it comes to price negotiation. There's always a better deal around the corner if you know the right people and ask the right questions.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/toyota/camry/100699452/prices.html?action=1

http://www.fatwallet.com/t/18/698426


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Free??? Nothing is free


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I'm going to just keep asking.

Tell us where anyone of us can get the NV55 for $10 tomorrow. I buy in volume. It's a simple f*****g question. You bought it up. Now back it up.

And the car analogy just doesn't work. There are so many allowances made to the dealer in car pricing that Invoice means nothing. Most car dealers make their money on the financing.


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## Catherine (Feb 22, 2006)

My goodness Gentlemen... I only wanted to know opinions about regulators, not start a flame war. I can see both sides to this: Furballi is correct in saying anyone can negotiate a deal if they have circumstances that are favourable to the buyer and seller.. That is what drives prices down on houses in a flooded market, for example. I can also see Rex's point, he would like that contact name to get his costs go down and would like to benefit from your research. But all in all Gentlemen, it is a moot point now, arguing ppl do not cooperate except to make each other look equally silly. :argue: 
Please, let's play nicely.
Rex can negotiate his own bulk deal, and Furballi will keep his contact private.

Thank you for your info on my thread, I will give all ideas consideration!
Catherine


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## Nevermore (Mar 26, 2007)

Bravo! :clap2:


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Catherine. It's not about that. It's about furballi showing us he is NOT a liar. But since it's actually much too late for that I will let it drop.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

OK, folks. Time to cool off and lock this thread up. Catherine, I hope you got the info you needed on your original question. Gentlemen, personal 'discussions' need to be reserved for pm's and not the public's scrutiny. Thank you for understanding.


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