# LSF has confused me, CO2 and fertilizer questions



## alpha_betta (Apr 28, 2010)

So I have been doing a lot of reading about CO2, lighting, substrate and fertilizer and I went to the LSF to see what options they had for substrate so I knew what I could get locally when the time came to buy it. Some day I plan on getting a 40 - 50g tank and I want to be ready for it, so I'm planing on trying things out with my 5g first.

I do realize that a larger tank is more stable, but money is limited and my enthusiasm to try this out knows no bounds so I am determined to find out if this will work for myself. Thought I would throw that out there because the guy at the LSF had a bit of an attitude about it.

That being said, I went to the store today to pick up a clown pleco for my 5g and to try and figure out what my tank needs, I have been reading a lot of stuff but some concepts are still a bit confusing, and happily the guy was able to help me out a bit but he confused me at the same time.

When I started conversing about my wanting to get a better substrate and setting up a DIY yeast CO2 reactor he told me that I wouldn't need it because it would produce so little CO2 that I would not see a difference. Well that is believable because I have read that these CO2 systems put out about 3 bubbles per minute at most. What confused me is he told me that I needed better lighting, without even asking what my WPG was on my tank he assumed I need more light, I currently have 1.6 WPG, which is low to mid light and it is sufficient for quite a number of plants so this is confusing me, was he assuming or do I just need better lighting?

He also said that I would not need to douse the tank with fertilizer if I got one of the substrates that I was looking at, he said that the substrate would do just fine and I asked him how long it would last to which he told me it would burn out in about two years and I would just replace it. He also mentioned that I probably would not even need new substrate and I could just ad Laterite and I would probably do fine.

So my question is, can I really get nice growing plants by adding Laterite and better lighting? Every plant I have ever gotten for this tank has burned out in about a year and for some of them it has been less. So that is confusing me, and according to this calculator, using my KH and Ph, I have about 5.6ppm of C02 in my tank and according to the site that is really low.

Talking with the LSF guy also got me thinking, if I got a better substrate for the tank, when would I need to add fertilizer to the tank or would I even need to since the tank is so small?

I also tried to start some dialog about how to lower my Ph without using chemical Ph down which can mess with KH readings and he said I could get RO water from their store and my biggest problem with tap water would be phosphates because they cause algae blooms, but in all my reading I have not come access information on the effects of phosphates in planted freshwater tanks so can someone direct me to some good articles? I have found some good information on my own but I think I'm getting to a point where just talking to people will help me learn a little more.

Also if you have any info on setting up and running small planted tanks, it would be a big help because everything I have found is for big tanks.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

I only got half-way through your post before I just HAD to say something. 

First, DIY CO2 puts out enough CO2 to make a BIG difference compared to none at all. Especially in a small tank and it is diffused through a filter or other diffusor to break up the bubbles.

At 1.6 WPG, you can grow very low-light plants in a 5 gal, and your fish food/waste can be your fertilizer. Adding more light as he suggested would require you to also add ferts/CO2 (there has to be a balance). 

Substrates don't have any ferts in them except maybe some trace nutrients (eco-complete, flourite) unless you are using the ADA stuff. The only substrate that has substantial micro-nutrients is plain soil (NPT style set-ups, aka El Natural). 

Laterite is NOT a substrate, it is a clay that you put UNDER your substrate to give you a micro-nutrient storage and iron bed. If you just use laterite, you'll have a cloud in your water forever.

-Dave


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## Nymsley (Mar 24, 2009)

alpha_betta said:


> That being said, I went to the store today to pick up a clown pleco for my 5g and to try and figure out what my tank needs,


Clown plecos are one of the smaller pleco species but I think its still too big for a 5g.



alpha_betta said:


> When I started conversing about my wanting to get a better substrate and setting up a DIY yeast CO2 reactor he told me that I wouldn't need it because it would produce so little CO2 that I would not see a difference.


A yeast setup is sufficient for a 5g.



alpha_betta said:


> What confused me is he told me that I needed better lighting, without even asking what my WPG was on my tank he assumed I need more light, I currently have 1.6 WPG, which is low to mid light and it is sufficient for quite a number of plants so this is confusing me, was he assuming or do I just need better lighting?


What type of lighting do you have? The watts per gallon "rule" was made with T12 bulbs in mind and there are other factors that affect how much light you have. I think he was just assuming or wanted to sell something. Also, the WPG rule breaks down even more with nano tanks.



alpha_betta said:


> He also mentioned that I probably would not even need new substrate and I could just ad Laterite and I would probably do fine.


I've seen the laterite method a few times though I have not tried it.



alpha_betta said:


> So that is confusing me, and according to this calculator, using my KH and Ph, I have about 5.6ppm of C02 in my tank and according to the site that is really low.


That type of calculator doesn't take into account for all the possible buffers in the water, only carbonate so its not accurate. (Its good for drop checkers though.)



alpha_betta said:


> I also tried to start some dialog about how to lower my Ph without using chemical Ph down which can mess with KH readings and he said I could get RO water from their store and my biggest problem with tap water would be phosphates because they cause algae blooms, but in all my reading I have not come access information on the effects of phosphates in planted freshwater tanks so can someone direct me to some good articles?


What is your pH and what are your phosphate levels?

(Ooops... didn't see dave's post while I had the reply window up...)


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Okay, phospahates in tap water causing algae is a widely debated topic. There are lots of examples that suggest that it's actually iron that is the culprit (and my personal experience has been that iron + sunlight = problem alga...no issues with high phosphates). Either way, that blanket statement is not accurate.

That said, tap water has alot to offer the planted aquarium in the way of micro-nutrients. It all comes back to balance. The nutrients need to match the plants' needs (driven by light). So, more light = more CO2, and ferts. Less light = potential to rely on your fish and fish food as your CO2 and ferts, but less choice of plants.

-Dave


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## alpha_betta (Apr 28, 2010)

Thanks for the replies! I have learned quite a bit already. This reply might be a bit long but I tried to make it short.



davemonkey said:


> The only substrate that has substantial micro-nutrients is plain soil (NPT style set-ups, aka El Natural).


I was thinking about doing this a while back, and I think I might go with soil when I get my larger tank, in another recently posted thread in this form someone linked to a nice article about using soil, I also found an article on the Krib which happened to mention the university of Washington using this method so you can imagine my excitement to see the article linked from here mentioning a biologist in Washington state using top soil.



davemonkey said:


> Laterite is NOT a substrate, it is a clay that you put UNDER your substrate to give you a micro-nutrient storage and iron bed. If you just use laterite, you'll have a cloud in your water forever.


Okay, that makes sense, I have read a few articles that say you should use laterite under the substrate but they did not really say why it should be used.



Nymsley said:


> Clown plecos are one of the smaller pleco species but I think its still too big for a 5g.


Ah, did not know that, the one I had got a little bigger then my betta and plecos don't really move around that much so I didn't think there was a problem with space for it to move around.



Nymsley said:


> Also, the WPG rule breaks down even more with nano tanks.


My hood uses an 8watt T-5. I have read on forums that the WPG is different for smaller tanks but so far I have not found any articles about this, and what do you mean by breaks down? I have read on other forms that smaller tanks benefit and the plants get more out of the bulbs in a smaller tank then they do in larger tanks with the same WPG because of light falling off the further down it has to travel.



Nymsley said:


> That type of calculator doesn't take into account for all the possible buffers in the water, only carbonate so its not accurate. (Its good for drop checkers though.)


Yes, I have read that too, I was using it as a ruff estimate, I can't imagine that the CO2 would be very high, I don't have many fish in the tank at all, just a betta and the pleco. Are the in tank CO2 test kits accurate and should I be getting one?



Nymsley said:


> What is your pH and what are your phosphate levels?


pH from the tap is 7.8+. In my tank I have gotten it down to 6.8-7.0 using natural buffers (no chemical pH Down). Phosphates, I have no clue, don't have a test kit for it.



davemonkey said:


> Less light = potential to rely on your fish and fish food as your CO2 and ferts, but less choice of plants.


Lucky I have found a few plants that I like and fit the bill, there are only a few that I have thought "aww too bad" but I'm not in that much of a hurry, someday I will hopefully have the opportunity to buy the higher light level plants.

Thanks again davemonkey and Nymsley for taking the time to reply to my post.


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