# About to tear my hair out (oops, don't have any!)



## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

OK read the article (three times) and I guess I must be the only idiot who doesn't get it, lolol! I have a 30gal with 3" gravel on top of 1" of organic mulch; emperor 400 filter, Fluval 800 CO2 w/bubble counter at 1 bubble per second. Water here in W TX is VERY hard; tank is populated by 6 med sized African Cichlids. T5 lighting on 16 hours per day. Was told java Ferns were easiest to grow; drop em in, don't even need to be planted they will attach to rocks etc; found THAT to be false so had to tie em to driftwood, rocks etc.

Well, despite the growth of VERY large "plantlets" on the underside of some of the leaves, they are not self detaching as they are supposed to and then floating off to find something else to attach to, lol. ALSO, the parent plants are starting to turn black then yellow and dying off (takes about 3 months or so for that to happen). Nitrite non existent; nitrate levels are low and at the same as b4 I even started to use live plants (funny I thought plants "ate" nitrate as a food source). Oh I also tried suplementing the javas with "lace' javas (they died within a month);

There is no-one else around here other than Petsmart for help and we ALL know how bad THEY are, lol. I am determined to not have to go back to plastic, fake plants, but I can't afford to keep throwing $ away on plants that are dying about 6-9 months later. Oh and finally, I am on a budget (tight one at that) so no suggestions on buying more CO2 systems other than the fluval system I have now.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Java fern is self attaching, but not in the way of dropping it in your tank and it will swim to a rock and attach itself. If you put the roots between two rocks (or like most people do) tie it to wood or rock, you'll notice it will attach after a few weeks/months. And if you want you can remove the strings again.

About the small plantlets on the leaves. In nature, when a javafern is not doing well it will make a new plant on his leaf, using the nutrients in the leaf (that leaf dies). When the leaf is completely dead, the young plant will break of and can attach itself somewhere else in the stream, hoping for a better environment. Not saying you have an inhospitol environment but it might be too different from the one it has grown up in. Not able to adapt it will make new plants which are adapted to your water. Could be not enough nutrients (like iron etc.) too. 

So don't buy co2, wait to see if the new plantlets do better in your tank. If they start to die back as well, you can consider a fertilizer.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

A photoperiod of 16 hours is very long! How many T5 tubes are you running, and what kind?

It is possible that your Java ferns are getting too much light. If they are not doing well, they won't do their job of absorbing nitrate. Plus they are slow growing plants by nature, and slow growers are not as effective at removing nitrate as fast growers.

Give us some more info on lighting, and we can suggest some hard-water tolerant plants for you to try.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

First off, what part of west Texas? I have learned (the hard way) that often when java ferns die, they start making a bunch of plantlets, so that could be what's going in there. Also, plants only really bring nitrate down when they are growing well, when they die, they actually release nitrates (and other things).


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

Michael said:


> A photoperiod of 16 hours is very long! How many T5 tubes are you running, and what kind?
> 
> It is possible that your Java ferns are getting too much light. If they are not doing well, they won't do their job of absorbing nitrate. Plus they are slow growing plants by nature, and slow growers are not as effective at removing nitrate as fast growers.
> 
> Give us some more info on lighting, and we can suggest some hard-water tolerant plants for you to try.


24" Aqueon 17 watt (single bulb for 30 gal)


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

D9Vin said:


> First off, what part of west Texas? I have learned (the hard way) that often when java ferns die, they start making a bunch of plantlets, so that could be what's going in there. Also, plants only really bring nitrate down when they are growing well, when they die, they actually release nitrates (and other things).


Midland, TX; And where did I use acronyms ?


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

Yo-han said:


> Java fern is self attaching, but not in the way of dropping it in your tank and it will swim to a rock and attach itself. If you put the roots between two rocks (or like most people do) tie it to wood or rock, you'll notice it will attach after a few weeks/months. And if you want you can remove the strings again.
> 
> About the small plantlets on the leaves. In nature, when a javafern is not doing well it will make a new plant on his leaf, using the nutrients in the leaf (that leaf dies). When the leaf is completely dead, the young plant will break of and can attach itself somewhere else in the stream, hoping for a better environment. Not saying you have an inhospitol environment but it might be too different from the one it has grown up in. Not able to adapt it will make new plants which are adapted to your water. Could be not enough nutrients (like iron etc.) too.
> 
> So don't buy co2, wait to see if the new plantlets do better in your tank. If they start to die back as well, you can consider a fertilizer.


Except the plantlets are not detaching.


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh, and thank you all who are trying to help me on this. You have no idea how much it is appreciated


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

britinTX1959 said:


> Except the plantlets are not detaching.


They will of the motherplant gets worse, but this can take a few weeks/months depending on how bad/good the plants do. I would bring your photo period back to 12 hours max, 10 is even better.
And if you were not dosing anything, I suggest start dosing plant fertilizer or increase the dose you add now a little!


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

Michael said:


> A photoperiod of 16 hours is very long! How many T5 tubes are you running, and what kind?
> 
> It is possible that your Java ferns are getting too much light. If they are not doing well, they won't do their job of absorbing nitrate. Plus they are slow growing plants by nature, and slow growers are not as effective at removing nitrate as fast growers.
> 
> Give us some more info on lighting, and we can suggest some hard-water tolerant plants for you to try.


1 T5 Tube 20 watts, 1275 lumens color temp 3000k


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

Yo-han said:


> They will of the motherplant gets worse, but this can take a few weeks/months depending on how bad/good the plants do. I would bring your photo period back to 12 hours max, 10 is even better.
> And if you were not dosing anything, I suggest start dosing plant fertilizer or increase the dose you add now a little!


Any particular fertilizer you'd recommend ?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"1 T5 Tube 20 watts, 1275 lumens color temp 3000k"

OK, it's not enough light. You need at least 2 T5 normal output tubes. And while color temperature is not a completely reliable guide to plant suitability, 3000 K is typically very high in green and yellow wave lengths. These are not the ones that plants use.

You need to upgrade your light. The least expensive way to do this is to get 2 or 3 clamp lights or desh lights, put spiral compact fluorescent 6500K 23W or 26W tubes in them over the tank. If you can find an old aquaruim light hood with two incandescent screw sockets in it, put SCF in those. this should put you in the medium light range. If you need more light, change to 26W. If less, move the fixtures farther from the tank, or put lower wattage tubes in them.

This is a very flexible, low cost way to light a tank.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

I live in Lubbock that's why I asked.



britinTX1959 said:


> And where did I use acronyms ?


Thats just my signature, it appears on every post I write, sorry.


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## isellcars (May 16, 2012)

I live outside of Austin and we have very hard water here as well. I went to lowes and bought a prefilter that I attached to my water hose outside. This removes the calcium and many other minerals that you don't want or need in your tank. It cost me about $35 for the set up. Since then my plants have really taken off and even my fish are much happier. 
Other then that, like stated above, you need better lights.


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

Midland!!


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Over here in the Netherlands lots of people use 3000 and 4000K lamps, beautiful dutch style aquariums, no problem! I don't like it but for plants its fine. About the amount of light, it's low but for javafern not too low. It can be grown but will do so very slow. When you asked what fertilizer I recommended, I assume you don't use any right now.

I personally use and like 'easy life profito'. It is easy and cheap available here. Just look for any 'complete fertilizer' seachem flourish is commonly available and very good, but anything like that will do. It will add nutrients like iron, potassium, magnesium etc to your water and increase you plants health.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

I am using one of the lower kelvin spiral compact fluorescents on a 2.5 gallon tank, and I get growth, but I don't really like the way it makes the tank look. A little too dreary for me, so I am going to replace it with a 6500k spiral cfl, when I can find them. Btw michael, where do you usually find them? I have searched at home depot, lowes, and Walmart here and haven't been able to find any.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

D9Vin, I get them from Lowe's and the large Walmart stores. GE and Sylvania are the brands I most often see.


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## D9Vin (May 12, 2011)

Hmm...I will have to check some of the other walmarts maybe...


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

michael: "You need at least 2 T5 normal output tubes. And while color temperature is not a completely reliable guide to plant suitability, 3000 K is typically very high in green and yellow wave lengths. These are not the ones that plants use."


In other words u r saying 40 watts, right ?


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

OK Guys all this input is overwhelming, lol, but greatly appreciated. SO let me boil it down to 2 elements here:

1) I need an additive like Flourish, right ? (THAT I can get about anywhere online; even my local Petsmart - I know, swear word, lol - sells it!).

2) the RIGHT 24" T5 bulb. OK, bearing in mind I don't have a HO fitting, just a regular T5 on my hood, let me ask; Which T5 bulb and where online (cuz Petsmart I DON'T trust with bulbs, lol).

Oh and BTW, a professional electrician who also owns his own light and fixture shop I know says it's NOT the wattage that matters as that is the ammount of energy the lamp takes to run; it's the lumens; the ammount of light it puts out, so why does EVERYWHERE online advertise the watts by the bulbs they sell, not the lumens ?

I know I'm probably stretching eeryone's patience here but trust me, you have all been VERY helpful and it is definately appreciated.


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

britinTX1959 said:


> 1) I need an additive like Flourish, right ? (THAT I can get about anywhere online; even my local Petsmart - I know, swear word, lol - sells it!).


Yes, this is probably your most important thing right now. Save yourself some money and wait a month with the light. You'll see notice better growth but this will take 2-3 weeks.



britinTX1959 said:


> 2) the RIGHT 24" T5 bulb. OK, bearing in mind I don't have a HO fitting, just a regular T5 on my hood, let me ask; Which T5 bulb and where online (cuz Petsmart I DON'T trust with bulbs, lol).


Anything between 3000K and 10.000K will grow plants. Lower kelvin (yellow looking lamps) do tend to make your plants grow more vertical and higher kelvin (like the blueish 10.000K) make your plants grow more horizontal. 6500K (or anything around it) looks white/daylight to our eyes and would be a nice inbetween. But then again, I know people using only 10.000K and in the Netherlands a combination of 3000K and 4000K is quite common although I think it looks way too yellow.



britinTX1959 said:


> Oh and BTW, a professional electrician who also owns his own light and fixture shop I know says it's NOT the wattage that matters as that is the ammount of energy the lamp takes to run; it's the lumens; the ammount of light it puts out, so why does EVERYWHERE online advertise the watts by the bulbs they sell, not the lumens ?


Wattage doesn't mean much for plants but it is easy to compare for us as a general guideline without comparing all brands. Lumens is what we humans see. So more lumens and the lamp looks brighter although it can have the same wattage as another lamp. To make it even more complicated, plants don't see/use lumens, but PAR. A lamp can look very bright (high lumens) to our eyes, but in theory it can have low PAR and your plants still can't use the light. What you need is a lamp with high PAR output. BUT this is not given on the lamp, and most plants do send out enough par as long as they're between 3000K and 10.000K. Just pick one you like.

But get you fertilizer first, you can probably do it without extra or special bulbs, if not satisfied in lets say 6 weeks, than you can consider another lamp or an extra lamp (would come in handy if you want to grow plants that need more light than your java fern)

A long post, but I hope it clears things up rather than raising 10 question. But if you still have questions, hit us, that's what this forum is about!

Regards,
Johan


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I agree with Johan, except I would get more light first, then add the fertilizers. If you are growing only Java fern, that species does not need much fertilization.

His explanation of lumens vs. PAR is good. Just to clarify, PAR means Photosynthetically Active Radiation. PAR is the part of the spectrum that plants use to make food. Lumens measure the part of the spectrum which looks bright to the human eye. Unfortunately, they are not the same parts of the spectrum.


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

LOLOL; talk about information overload, tho as i said b4 it is SO appreciated! Something I don't understand tho; EVERYWHERE I read online, javas require low to medium light and little to no fertilization or additives, so why is everyone saying more light and additives ?


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Yes, javafern only needs low light, but what you have is considered VERY low light. Low light would be at least (don't shoot me for saying this, just trying to keep it simple) 30W above your tank. Medium is double that. And they do require 'little to no' fertilizer, but with no fertilizer they just barely stay alive and look like yours right now (no offense off course!). 

The only way you can get away without fertilizer would be with a lot of waterchanges, tapwater does contain a little iron and other trace elements, and with quite a few fish (their poo and breathing would make up the other nutrients your javafern needs). This is quite hard to get balanced so just add a little flourish or anything like that and your ferns will do way better. To get it look the way they should, add extra light!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Light is a complex subject. The only way to be certain how much light you have is to measure it with a PAR meter, but that isn't practical for you. So we are making our best guesses, and the best guess is that you don't have enough light.


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## britinTX1959 (Feb 5, 2012)

OK guys; an update!

I tore the entire tank down; cleaned ALL the gravel. and put it back in. Filled with de chlorinated W Texas hard water. Planted a whole mess load of hardy water sprite. Put back my cichlids and replaced the lighting with 60 wayys of flourescent light (can double to 120 wif necessary!). as I was being told "not enough lighting, not enough lightin!" and.....

The plants are now growing and instead are starting to to ghave algae appear on them (oh, I cut back the lightin to 8 hours a day as suggested!), lol. Now what ? Any ideas anyone ?


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## fletch616 (Sep 14, 2011)

stagger your photo period..five on three off five on! Works well..lights are on in morning so you can look before you go to work and on when you come home to relax looking.


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