# Soil for new tanks



## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

I've got two tanks to set up and I would like some advise on the soil. I had soil substrate tanks 12 years ago and people thought I was nuts but the plant growth was very good. it's nice to see the method has taken off.

anyway back on topic, I'm setting up a 90 Gallon and a 1.5 Gallon nano, I want to use my native topsoil, what the heck the skunk cabbage in my creek like it.
I thought I might need to add a little compost to increase the level of organic matter so I did the bottle test on the topsoil alone and on the compost to see how they would react. I added water to the jars and took pictures, the series of pictures was taken the night I started the test 6/27, 6/28 AM & PM, 6/29 AM, and then tonight 6/30 PM. the topsoil sample was clear from the beginning but the compost jar started out cloudy, it cleared up by tonight, the only drawback is the color is like a good cup of tea. I assume that it's tannic acid but the PH shot up to 8.5, the tapwater is 7.5. I'll post the test data after the pictures.









































..........Tap water..........................Topsoil.......................Compost
PH...........7.5..................................6.5.............................8.5
KH...........3dh.................................2dh.............................8dh
GH...........3dh.................................1dh.............................3dh
N02..........0...................................>0.3.............................0.3
N03..........0.....................................0.................................0
NH3..........0...................................1.5..............................0.25
Iron..........0.....................................0...............................3ppm

If its tannic acid I would expect the PH to drop unless there is something driving it up also, KH at 8 Hmmmm.

Opinions please....

Advise...

Should I add some of this compost? maybe another brand? or just use the topsoil?

what am I missing?

sorry about all the dots but I couldn't get a chart to work, when I used spaces it took them out when I previewed the post.

Brian


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## Matt S. (Nov 3, 2005)

bpimm said:


> If its tannic acid I would expect the PH to drop unless there is something driving it up also, KH at 8 Hmmmm.
> 
> Opinions please....
> 
> ...


Hi Brian,

Thanks for posting your test. KH of 8 is probably not an issue. Many plants will benefit from it. Even without th KH the PH might go up in a bottle test due to anaerobic processes. I had a similar observation on a bottle test earlier this year and Diana made the following comment:
"It doesn't surprise me that the pH in your bottles has gone up. Here's why. As bacteria feast on all that lovely organic matter (compost you have added), they will consume all oxygen; then the bacteria start using chemicals (nitrates, sulfates, oxidized iron, etc) to receive electrons for their respiration. All of these reactions are "reductive reactions", in that they consume acid, and therefore, drive the water pH up. See page 67 in my book for two examples of reductive reactions (when bacteria, under anaerobic conditions, use iron or sulfate for their respiration). 
Here are two rules of chemistry that you can "take to the bank":
Oxidative reactions (for example, nitrification) generate acid
Reductive reactions (for example, denitrification) consume acid"
See here Bottle Test for more.

I've since gone on to try compost in very small quantities as part of a soil mix without ill effects, but I was adding it into an almost purely mineral soil with no organic matter. It's probably not impossible to use this compost for a planted tank, but if you use too much you may have a rough ride at first and it could take a while to settle down. Probably you are going to have similar issues with any compost - it's just very rich. If you are going to use it you'd probably do well to plant very heavily and you may need to do more water changes or use activated carbon until the soil stops staining the water.

If you want a more serene new setup then my bets are on the top soil. Its a bit hard to tell from the pictures but it looks nice and dark with lots of organic matter and it won't be as labile as the compost.

Matt


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

Thanks Matt,

That was very helpful, I think I'm going to try a bottle test on a mix of the topsoil and a little compost. I also need to figure out how to buffer the hardness in the soil, maybe some oyster shell mixed in?

I can't dose the water column because of the continuous water change that I use on all of my tanks. 

How is your soil working out now that it's had 6 mos. to settle in?

Brian


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## Matt S. (Nov 3, 2005)

It actually only went into a tank about one month ago. It's in a 10 G tank I'm using to test before scaling up (a) the soil mix and (b) plants that will do well in Singapores climate without chillers and fans. 

The final soil mix was by volume maybe 40% mineral soil, 10% compost and 50% cocopeat (a localy available amendment consisting of shredded coconut shells - nice neutral PH).

So far so good -clear water, little algae but not very significant amounts. Hygrophylia Polysperma growing emergent and explosive growth of floating plants. I've got Salvynia, Frogbit and Duckweed and it covers the top of the tank every week to the point I wonder how O2 gets to the fish.

I never did do any water column fertilization but just put some coral pieces into the tank. 

I've always thought the need (perhaps necessity?) for much less frequent water changes in a NPT was one of the significant labour saving advantages of the approach. I'm curious how do you accomplish continuous replacement of the water in your tanks and does it turnover frequently? Based on you experience this works well for your plants?

Matt


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Hey Brian: Good to see that people are doing bottle tests before setting up their tanks. My only comment is that it would be better to have your KH at 8 rather than 3. This will provide more buffering capacity for your tank and in a low tech setup some plants will be able to get their carbon from the carbonates that make up the KH. Thus, having harder water is often better than having softer water. The KH of my tap water is 8 but after about a year, it has dropped down to 0!

-ricardo


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

Matt S. said:


> I've always thought the need (perhaps necessity?) for much less frequent water changes in a NPT was one of the significant labour saving advantages of the approach. I'm curious how do you accomplish continuous replacement of the water in your tanks and does it turnover frequently? Based on you experience this works well for your plants?
> 
> Matt


Hi matt,

The continuous water change system came out of the need for weekly water changes and laziness. it consists of a water pressure regulator and drip irrigation emitters. The tank is drilled for an overflow drain which I either route to the waste plumbing of the house or just run it outside. My brother actually ran all of the water from several tanks to his outdoor pond for makeup water and to do the water change on the pond. The amount of water you can add is up to you. One thing I noticed after starting with this system is that fish diseases vanished, I haven't had a illness in a tank for 12 years. the only die off I see is either at the hands of another inhabitant or old age.

Also my idea is to emulate nature as close as possible while maintaining a very low maintenance system. My theory is that in most bodies of water there is a constant supply of fresh water coming into the lake or river. now this is not always the case but it is the system that I have tried to emulate.
another advantage is you can run a higher fish load without having water quality issues. right now I only have a 15 Gal Hex running and a 90 Gal I'm setting up, which is taking far longer than I expected, and I have been picking up some fish for the 90 when they are available, they are in the 15. I have probably 4-5 times the fish load that could be maintained in natural aquarium and the plants and fish are doing good.

I am adding about 4 Gallons of water a day to the 15 at this time, in the past I was adding 2-3 Gallons in a 100 Gallon soil based planted tank with 20-25 australian rainbows

I tend to stick with heavy root feeding plants as there is very little food for the leaf feeders but anything that likes a rich substrate seems to do good in my tanks.

and I have no labor in the water maintenance of a tank it's fully automated.
I happen to be lucky, I live out in the middle of nothing and my well water is nice and clean so I don't have to pretreat it with anything it goes strait into the tank. if you are on a city water system you would have to perfilter out all the junk they add before adding the water to the tank.



flagg said:


> Hey Brian: Good to see that people are doing bottle tests before setting up their tanks. My only comment is that it would be better to have your KH at 8 rather than 3. This will provide more buffering capacity for your tank and in a low tech setup some plants will be able to get their carbon from the carbonates that make up the KH. Thus, having harder water is often better than having softer water. The KH of my tap water is 8 but after about a year, it has dropped down to 0!
> 
> -ricardo


Ricardo,

I would agree on the KH, and I need the buffer in the substrate because of the constant water flow so I like the compost for that aspect, my tanks are not truly low tech because I use pressure C02, I tend to run it 10ppm or less, more to maintain what the plants use than to force rapid growth. If it grows that fast you have to maintain it more. once again the laziness aspect shows up.

Brian


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## Matt S. (Nov 3, 2005)

Cool idea. You can maintain your fish tank, irrigate and fertilize your garden all at the same time. I've heard about similar arangments on a comercial scale with combined pond aquaculture and market gardening. You are lucky to have good water and a system set up for this. For many of us laziness is the reason for NOT changing the water.

Matthew


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Brian,

Thanks very much for your excellent Bottle Test information on compost v. soil. The pictures clearly show why bottle tests are useful.

I think we can refer to this folder to nix the idea of using pure compost as a soil substitute. As a fertilizer amendment to a mineral soil with not much organic matter, 5-10% compost could be very helpful. But as a pure substrate....Not a good idea! 

Notice the high iron release (3 ppm) from the compost-- all that chelated iron will definitely stimulate algae.

Bacateria degrade the organic matter in compost rather quickly, because compost has a neutral or alkaline pH. Notice how cloudy the compost bottle is in the beginning-- The bacteria are going wild!

The organic matter in potting soils, which contain peat, often has a pH of less than 5. (The low pH is due to the sphagnum moss itself, which is naturally acidic.) The peat's acidity slows down its decomposition, because most bacteria overwhelminglyprefer neutral pH. 

See my book, pages 59-60 for more information on peats and decompostion and Spagnum moss.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Brian,
> 
> Thanks very much for your excellent Bottle Test information on compost v. soil. The pictures clearly show why bottle tests are useful.
> 
> I think we can refer to this folder to nix the idea of using pure compost as a soil substitute. As a fertilizer amendment to a mineral soil with not much organic matter, 5-10% compost could be very helpful. But as a pure substrate....Not a good idea!


I have gone even further with the bottle tests, I now have 7 bottles in the window. I left the original two there to see if they would grow alge on their own, and after 9 days with direct sunlight no alge. I added a soil/compost mix with 30% compost covered by a layer of gravel and also one with crushed coral, trying to see how much the coral would raise the hardness, I think my son will be testing these today. I also added a jar with oyster shell, a jar with the crushed coral alone, and a jar of tap water for a control. I'll post results tonight if I have them.



> Notice the high iron release (3 ppm) from the compost-- all that chelated iron will definitely stimulate algae.
> 
> Bacateria degrade the organic matter in compost rather quickly, because compost has a neutral or alkaline pH. Notice how cloudy the compost bottle is in the beginning-- The bacteria are going wild!
> 
> ...


What are your thoughts on using crushed coral or oyster shell to increase the buffering capacity in the tank, remembering that the tank will be getting constant fresh water, and CO2. the reason I think I may need it is the topsoil dropped the GH by 2 points and the KH by one. I would like to maintain about 6.8 PH with a C02 level at around 10ppm.

Brian


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Brian,

You probably will need to add a source of calcium and magnesium to the tank. With CO2 at 10 ppm, the accelerated plant growth may quickly consume all water calcium. Crushed shells may or may not release calcium/magnesium fast enough. I'd check with the High Tech folks. 

One hobbyist that uses CO2 injection adds a calcium pill (500 mg mineral tablet for people) to his 75 gal softwater tank every week or so. It turns water cloudy for a few hours.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Brian,
> 
> You probably will need to add a source of calcium and magnesium to the tank. With CO2 at 10 ppm, the accelerated plant growth may quickly consume all water calcium. Crushed shells may or may not release calcium/magnesium fast enough. I'd check with the High Tech folks.


dwalstad,

There is the possibility that the constant new water can take care of the calcium and magnesium needs as well as the crushed shells, and I will back off the C02 to find the equilibrium point.

Here are the results of the second set of bottle test's, I've included the first set of results for easy comparison.









I think I will go with the soil mix with the gravel layer. I wanted a white sand but the coral dosen't give me the look I wanted.

Here is the final bottle test picture.









Maybe I should just add plants and fish to the jars. 

Comments or suggestions are always welcome.

Brian


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

I had some fun today I needed to mix up a batch of soil and thought I would post it on here to finish up this thread. I needed enough soil to do three tanks, I figured that a 5 Gallon bucket full should do. I dug up about 4 Gallons of topsoil and tossed it into the cement mixer and threw in several fist size rocks to help break it up.










Then I ran it through a 1/4" screen to remove any debris.










I put it back into the mixer and added about a gallon worth of compost and let it mix, I ended up with dirt covered compost balls so I put the rocks back in, added a three pound coffee can full of sand, and a three pound can of crushed oyster shell and let it mix for about an hour before all of the clumps had broken up. I then screened the soil again and put it in a bucket for storage until I'm ready to plant.

Brian


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Brian wrote: Maybe I should just add plants and fish to the jars.

LOL If they're big enough you could make them into little nano natural planted tanks for bettas! Here's Ingrid's little natural planted betta bowl.


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## Matt S. (Nov 3, 2005)

Brian,

You have some seriously fun gear in your yard. First you have this unusual continuous flow setup with your well water and now it looks like you could go into industrial production of soil. I'm wondering what's next - a solar array to concentrate sun light on the tanks!?  

Matt


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

Matt S. said:


> Brian,
> 
> You have some seriously fun gear in your yard. First you have this unusual continuous flow setup with your well water and now it looks like you could go into industrial production of soil. I'm wondering what's next - a solar array to concentrate sun light on the tanks!?
> 
> Matt


Thanks Matt, I do like power tools. 

This is how I used to dig dirt before I hurt my back and moved into the office.










I think the shipping on a box of dirt might be a little high...

Funny you mention the solar array, I have thought of using a skylight product, can't think of the name right now, for a light source they use a highly reflective flexible tube to bring in sunlight. they have a roof unit to capture the sunlight and a ceiling unit to project it into the room, they are connected together by this reflective flexible tube. they can be quite bright. I haven't done anything with the idea as it can't turn rainwater into sunlight and living in the northwest US I get more rain than sun. It might be worth looking into in a more sunny climate.

EDIT: Solatube is one brand.

http://www.solatube.com/res_edu.php

Brian


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## Teeleton (Jun 8, 2006)

bpimm said:


> I haven't done anything with the idea as it can't turn rainwater into sunlight and living in the northwest US I get more rain than sun. It might be worth looking into in a more sunny climate.
> 
> Brian


light meter + variable ballast. On the less sunny days the florescent lights kick in to make up the difference. The tank sees the same light intensity under all conditions. 

Teeleton


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

That Solatube thing sounds great! I've often thought about using a mirror just outside the window to reflect the afternoon sun onto my tanks during the winter when it isn't so hot (they look so nice in sunlight and they only get it for a short time in the morning during winter). 

From Alex.


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## Matt S. (Nov 3, 2005)

Yup you could sure move alot of top soil with that! 

Regarding the shipping price for a box of dirt. Yes, expensive, but it's all relative to the selling price for a box of dirt. Think about how much one can pay for branded German/Japanese manufactured dirt. And your's look just as good.

Matt


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

bpimm said:


> dwalstad,
> 
> There is the possibility that the constant new water can take care of the calcium and magnesium needs as well as the crushed shells, and I will back off the C02 to find the equilibrium point.
> 
> ...


Hi Brian,

Looks like you're having too good a time with this!  Love the big earth mover photo.

I agree that if you do frequent water changes you may not need to add calcium and magnesium.

About the bottle test, aerating the water in the bottles will change a lot of water chemistry parameters. The compost that looks awful in the bottle test might perform much better if the water was aerated.

The bottle tests are helpful for gross turbidity problems. But because they go anaerobic, especially those with lots of organic matter, they may not tell you how the soil will behave in the aquarium.

I did bottle tests with and without bubbling. It was amazing how quickly the soil took care of added ammonia.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

The soil is in the first tank, the 1.5 Gal Hex. I planted some HC to form a bush in the back. we will see if I can make it live.

The saga will continue in the hex journal.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/27728-aquascaping-a-1-gal-hex.html

Thanks for all the help
Brian


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## Rattail (Aug 21, 2006)

Hi Diane,
(I have ordered your book and am anxioulsy waiting. These things take time to get to South Africa! out: )


You mention above that "if you do frequent water changes you may not need to add calcium and magnesium"... please define "frequent"? 

Please advise? (I intend using a local Rose and Shrub mix in the bottom, with some clay balls for iron, with plain aquarium gravel on top for my substrate).

Thank you.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

In the context of this thread frequent was based on my system of continuous water change, my tanks have a constant flow of water into them. In the El natural style tank you don't do frequent water changes so that is probably not a good source of calcium and magnesium. I added crushed oyster shell to my soil for the calcium.


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