# Algae is getting the best of me....again



## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm ready to go back to plastic plants. Well, maybe not that far just yet, but man it's getting there. I've been battling this same algae for over a month and have tried several things, all to no avail. I even get differing opinions on what exactly it is. Some say BBA, some say staghorn, some say hair algae.

The last 2-3 weeks, I have put away my test kits and started a strict EI regime (was dosing per the tests prior). 

Tank is 75 gal. 
Lighting: 4x54 HO t-5 TEK with 2 bulbs running 10 hrs. All 4 bulbs running for 8 hrs.
CO2: pressurized with AM 1000 inline reactor. According to both the pH chart and the degas method, I am running >45 ppm.
Ferts: day 1, 50% h2o change, add 3/4 tsp KNO3, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4, 1 tsp K2SO4
day 2, 15 ml Tropica master grow, 5 ml Flourish Iron
day 3, 3/4 tsp KNO3, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4
day 4, same as day 2
day 5, same as day 3
day 6, same as day 2
day 7, off

My tapwater does register 0.5 phosphates, no nitrates or ammonia. Tonight before doing my weekly water change, my nitrates were in the 20-40 range, but phosphate was off the chart. At least 10 (it changed instantly and only reads to 10). The good news is at least I don't have any green spot .

Most of the plants are low/med light species (hygro, java fern, crypts, swords, anacharis, ludwigia). Pretty good fish load, 10 rainbow fish of various types, 2 pearl gourami, 5 yoyo loaches, 3 Ottos, and 2 BN plecs.

I'm frustrated. I have tried dosing via test kits, and keeping my NPK at 10-1-15 without success. I have now tried EI and think I've failed. Where do I go from here?????


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

What I tried last was to accept that my tank wasn't going to get better just by tinkering with fertilizers. So, I removed all of the plants, drift wood, and equipment. I cleaned the glass all around, removed and discarded the cork/moss back wall, and cleaned the top part of the substrate as best I could. Then I made a big pot of 1 in 20 bleach/water, and dipped all of the inert stuff until all of the algae turned white. I used a toothbrush to scrub off what I could, carefully rinsed them and dipped them in a dechlorinator/water rinse and returned them to the tank. I tossed all of the worst infected plants, and dipped the others for various times, not exceeding about 20 seconds, to kill the algae on them. I replanted all of the plants I could salvage, still enough to fill the tank. Then I made the improvements in CO2 addition and filtration that I had planned, and started up the tank again. Unfortunately I ran into a green dust problem, followed by green fuzz algae on the plants, but up to then I think I did about what was needed. Once the GDA gets through it's cycle I can tackle the remaining algae problems. My little 29 gallon tank is my retirement hobby, so having things to do really isn't that big a deal for me.


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## Ownager2004 (Apr 18, 2006)

Im just coming out of a problem like yours. I too almost hit the wall, but im so glad I stuck with it. Im still a noob with the ferts and the science in general, but I used EI and stuck with it. I did about the same as Hoppy. I trimmed and discarded everything that I saw bad algae on, I took out the driftwood and scrubbed it, I dipped the plants that weren't bad in a 1/20 bleach solution(although I went 3 minutes because I had had quite enough :twisted: lol ...it killed about half the plants i dipped) and I also did a SERIOUS cleaning of mulm/detritus. (possible noob comment coming up) I blame the detritus in my tank for the algae, I think it was making more NH4 than my tank wanted to deal with. I was also doing 4-5x excel dose, but that may be impractical in your tank.

I then decided I would stop trying to scape while I still had algae, I think this was most important because it lowered my frustration factor by about a million. Then I got more plants. I also floated a lot of hornwort and anacharis. In fact, I still float them to appease the algae gods rayer: I even think some of the anacharis looks good enough to plant now, lol  

Good luck and stay patient


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Tell us what the several things are that you have tried so we don't suggest them again


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Do this.....

Cut your lighting. Full on for 6 hours a day....then 8 hours on weekend (just for viewing pleasure)

Cut your ferts big time.

keep your schedule but dose this....
N - 1/4tsp
P - 1/16tsp
K - 1/2tsp (dose this 3x a week)

Cut your trace to 10ml....dont worry about iron.

Add 1 heaping tsp of epsom after WC's.

I would spot treat algae with excel. Turn your filters off for 20 minutes and squirt excel directly on to the algae spots. If there is too much....like some of your photos, i would just remove the whole leaf.

This will also slow down your growth. But obviously, you are growing plants fast and algae. So lets slow everything down here.

jB


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Well, I started out with low dose ferts. Adding only enough to keep my NPK levels at 15-1-20. Had some green spot for a while, but then when I upgraded lighting I got an explosion of whatever is in those pics.

I asked for advice, and the most common suggestion was to put the test kits away and do straight EI. So I did. At first, it looked like it was going to work, but then the algae came back strong.

What I'm not getting is how the Phos got so darn high. In just two weeks of dosing EI for it to be >10 ppm. My nitrate seemed about where it should be. I guess I'm just not getting what I'm doing wrong with my dosings.

I did a major pruning last night. Removed as many badly infested leaves as I could. I added 1/2 tsp KNO3 and 1 tsp K2SO4 only.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Those levels are not uncommon for EI. Many have failed with EI, you are not alone. If something is going to go wrong with that much nutrients, its going to go wrong big and fast. Do what i suggested and you will slow everyting down.

jB


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

I tend to agree with Hoppy because I don't believe with a bad infestation that a simple change in fert regime is going to get rid of the algae.

It needs to be killed with either an antisceptic of some sort or with a blackout, or if you have the time and patience, a very heavy and thorough cleaning.

Once the algae is gone then you can focus on your plants, growing them dense and healthy.

Algae can get by on smaller amounts of nutrients than plants can so attempting to fight algae with nutrient reduction is just going to backfire and harm your plants.

I do think however that cutting back your light intensity and period temporarily until things are under control is a good way to slow down the system without hurting the plants.

Recently I went out of town for four days and had some BGA that I had been fighting off and on. It wasn't terrible but I couldn't quite shake it. I also didn't want it to get out of hand or to start up some other algae while I was gone so I cut my lighting in half to just 5 hours a day, and before I left a dumped *twice* the amount of ferts I normally dose in one day into my tank. When I came back the BGA was _totally_ gone. Coincidence? Perhaps. Who knows.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Jason, are you suggesting dosing those NPK levels three times/week or just the K three times/week?

And my next question is this... If this is successful and the algae is beaten back, will I be able to increase my light duration again? How would I go about it?

I'm just so frustrated right now I can't stand it. I had this setup doing just fine under an All-glass triple t-8 strip light. Growth was slower, but very healthy. I just had to upgrade to the TEK. I thought that more light would expand my horizons on the types of things I could grow. Little did I know that mainly what I could grow that I didn't before........ Is ALGAE.

I'm certainly considering doing the whole bleach nuke treatment. But my concern is this. If I bleach dip everything, and I haven't figured out what my underlying issue is, won't it all just come back?


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Dose 3x a week for NPK....

After you get your algae under control, then increase your lighting to by and hour and let that go for a few weeks and see what your results are. 

I would do a couple large WC's through the week also. Dont dose for a week and do a 50% change every 3 days. This will bring your levels back to a sane level. Then start the newer dosing.

Something got out of whack along the way. You cant possibly fix it with a million ppm's of nutrients and a million watts of light. You have to slow everything down. 

Your high light kit is great!! But I would run that light 6-7 hrs a day, longer on weekends for viewing pleasure, and not much more. I just started some new tanks with higher light like that. I am running 6 hrs and day and everything is growing just fine. Slow, but fine.


jB


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## Ownager2004 (Apr 18, 2006)

My thoughts about the bleach dip question:

I think EI is better at preventing algae from growing than killing algae thats already there. Your also reducing the reproductive population of the algae, i suppose.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Ownager2004 said:


> I think EI is better at preventing algae from growing than killing algae thats already there.


Exactly.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

JB's advice is good. You could probably stop dosing P altogether. But my biggest advice is to increase your CO2. *Ignore the chart*. I promise you that's the problem. Nutrients are easy. I wouldn't believe it myself, but then and only then did I beat algae (and I had the exact algae you have). The amount of CO2 you will need to inject into that tank will suprise you! You will also need strong circulation in order to keep it distributed well. When the circulation slows in my tank, even just a little, along comes the algae. I run two CO2 lines into my tank: one into the cannister (3 bps), and the other into the venturi of my powerhead (4-5 bps). The CO2 is a small price to pay for an algae free tank. Pump it in there during the day, and shut it off at night (or lower it).


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Alright, I'm setting the pH controller at 6.1. We'll see how the fish and plants respond.

Thanks for all the input.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

dogdoc, please come back and update this thread as you progress.

I am deeply skeptical of the "More CO2!!!" crowd, and they seem to be legion.

I will observe once again that many well respected aquarists have kept CO2 concentrations well below those advocated by many of the folks on this board, and they have done so while remaining largely algae free.

CO2 does absolutely nothing to algae. All it does is promote healthy plants which in turn seems to inhibit algae growth. However, if there's a problem with another nutrient then all the CO2 in the world won't do diddly squat. Furthermore, it has been my admittedly limited experience that if an infestation has progressed far enough along, no amount of nutrient regime changing and CO2 increasing will get rid of it. Stop the progression? Sure. Kill it? No. It will require chemical treatment, thorough cleaning, blackout, or some combination of those followed by a good nutrient regime.

It's a question I rarely see asked: How bad is your infestation? How long have you been fighting it?

If I see some BGA start to crop up then yes by all means adjusting my nutrients and ensuring my CO2 is sufficient will stop the progression and it's a simple matter to get rid of what little's there. Otherwise, it's time for the big guns.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Well, O.K. I'm not just upping my pH. I have also followed other recommendations and reduced my lighting period and ferts.

I've been battling the scourge for about three weeks. First suggestion that I tried was to dose straight EI and put my test kits away. I did. At first it seemed like I might have slowed the algae down, but then it came back strong. I tested and I had ended up with a huge phosphate level. It instantly went to the upper limit of my test kit at the end of the second week of EI. After a 50% water change, phosphate was still topping the charts (10 ppm). So I know it had to be at least 20. Thus ended my EI experiment.

I still don't even know how the phos got so darn high. I was dosing 1/4 tsp 3 times per week in a 75g tank and I'm religious about my 50% water changes.

So I did another 50% change today, pruned away a lot of infested leaves, and I'm on to the next experiment. Lower light, lower ferts, higher CO2.

I haven't quite reached the bleach nuke stage yet, but I'm close.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Avalon said:


> You could probably stop dosing P altogether.


I wonder if 0.5 ppm of PO4 in his tap is sufficient.

Anytime my PO4 dips much below 2 ppm I get GSA.

Also would that much PO4 last a whole week until the next water change?


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

dogdoc said:


> Well, O.K. I'm not just upping my pH. I have also followed other recommendations and reduced my lighting period and ferts.


I really do not think excessive ferts will cause algae. Algae can thrive on levels of nutrients less than that which plants need to thrive, so you are just hurting the plants in my opinion. I think cutting down on lighting temporarily is a great idea; I think cutting down on your ferts is a bad idea.

Also I recommend giving Flourish Excel a try if you haven't already. Try tripple dosing it for at least a month and you may be surprised!

By the way, the reason your PO4 is so high is because your plants aren't growing at their full potential so a normal EI dosing regime is just overkill. You're wasting ferts but you are not making your algae worse by dosing EI.

Your experience sounds very familiar and I am telling you, screwing around with nutrient levels and trying to saturate your water with CO2 isn't going to solve your problem. First you have to get rid of the algae (temporarily reducing lighting intensity and period is a step in this direction), THEN a densly planted tank full of healthy plants will keep the algae away all on its own. You just give the plants what they need to be happy. I found that they cannot and will not be very happy when they are covered in algae. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here though so I will shut up now


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Dogdoc and I have the same tank and same lighting. He's going through the very same thing I did. I started with the same EI dosing. Quarter tsp. P every other day and my kit was off the chart! 

After hearing from the "more CO2!" crowd, I did it. I admit, I killed some fish doing it, but the plants took off! The next step was to figure out how to utilize CO2 safely. Mr. Barr recommends surface agitation, but I did it another way: by limiting P. When you "casually" limit P, it slows the uptake of N. You may get a bit of GSA, and of course, you don't want a severe deficiency. I noticed that and bumped up the P just a hair. I think I dose 1/8 tsp two days a week. I've gone 2 weeks without dosing P, and my tank has been fine. You can tell growth stalls a bit, and GSA shows up, but it's nothing major. As long as Stag and BBA aren't in my tank, I'm happy.

As for the CO2, I must keep my pH no higher than 6.2, or I get algae. With my water, that equates to over 200ppm of CO2 (6.0ph with 13 dKH). I think the Onyx is messing with me a bit. After a water change, I have to back off the CO2 big time, or fish die. After a day or two, all is back to normal. Over time, it seems I need even more CO2. Buffering capacity in action? Hmm....

Point is, in big tanks with very high light, you need a motherload of CO2, or limit nutrients in such a way as to slow growth and slow the demand for CO2. EI expects maximum growth rate and utilizes maximum uptake. If you can't fulfill all the demands, you gotta cut back on something. With very high light, it's not CO2.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

If your phosphate test kit says you are consistently high on phosphates, most of the time it means the test kit isn't correct. And, if changing 50% of the water leaves the phosphate level still high, the test kit is almost certainly incorrect. A very few public water systems have very high phosphate levels in the tap water, but that should be seen in the water quality reports that all public water systems have to supply.

A lot of people are dosing about 1/16 teaspoon of KH2PO4 three times a week per 25 gallons of water, and not having high phosphate levels, so if someone else has a test result that says they do that and do have high phosphate levels, the test kit is almost certainly incorrect.

Doesn't all of this suggest that is isn't a good idea to base fertilizing with PO4 on test kit results?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Avalon said:


> Dogdoc and I have the same tank and same lighting. He's going through the very same thing I did. I started with the same EI dosing. Quarter tsp. P every other day and my kit was off the chart!
> 
> After hearing from the "more CO2!" crowd, I did it. I admit, I killed some fish doing it, but the plants took off! The next step was to figure out how to utilize CO2 safely. Mr. Barr recommends surface agitation, but I did it another way: by limiting P. When you "casually" limit P, it slows the uptake of N. You may get a bit of GSA, and of course, you don't want a severe deficiency. I noticed that and bumped up the P just a hair. I think I dose 1/8 tsp two days a week. I've gone 2 weeks without dosing P, and my tank has been fine. You can tell growth stalls a bit, and GSA shows up, but it's nothing major. As long as Stag and BBA aren't in my tank, I'm happy.
> 
> ...


It will always be better to limit the growth of our plants by limiting the light, not by limiting fertilizer availability. We need to keep as much of each nutrient in the tank as the plants will use, and if we can't keep up with the CO2 demand, cut back on the lighting so we can keep up with it. That is my opinion anyway.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

hoppycalif said:


> It will always be better to limit the growth of our plants by limiting the light...


Exactly. But the 4x54w T5HO is a nice light. It will grow anything and everything over a 75g. Learning how to use it has allowed me to learn more about plant growth. Limiting macro nutrients (P) works. And it works well. Where there's a will, there's a way. 

I've also noticed that when my P levels get excessive, over 1.5ppm, I get fuzz algae. Interesting. I don't have CO2 issues in small tanks, only nutrient issues. Again, interesting.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Avalon said:


> The next step was to figure out how to utilize CO2 safely. Mr. Barr recommends surface agitation, but I did it another way: by limiting P. When you "casually" limit P, it slows the uptake of N. You may get a bit of GSA, and of course, you don't want a severe deficiency. I noticed that and bumped up the P just a hair. I think I dose 1/8 tsp two days a week. I've gone 2 weeks without dosing P, and my tank has been fine. You can tell growth stalls a bit, and GSA shows up, but it's nothing major. As long as Stag and BBA aren't in my tank, I'm happy.


Hi Avalon. Couple questions..

How does limiting P allow you to utilize CO2 safely? And what does it mean to utilize CO2 safely?

Also I do not think someone new to the hobby (and maybe he's not I am not sure) wants to be messing around with tweaking nutrient levels to slow uptake rates, etc. Just my opinion. It's so much easier to just kill all the algae and then make sure the plants have plenty of everything.

It's what I did, and my tank is basically algae free. I don't even know exactly how much KNO3 and KH2PO4 I dose. It's a liquid solution I mixed up a while back and have long since forgotten the amounts in it.. it's a 7:1 N to P ratio.. that's all I know.. a few weeks back I noticed some BGA starting so I doubled the amount of KNO3/KH2PO4 and it stopped growing almost immediately.

I haven't used a test kit in I can't remember how long. I guess my point is that Tom's EI method works, and works well for creating a lush, vibrant tank that is algae free. It will not get rid of algae, however but it will stop it from getting a foothold. I think this hobby just comes down to "make your plants happy". When the plants are happy (and there are enough plants) then algae won't be an issue.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Well, P _deficient_ tanks are recognized by stunted plants. Other nutrient deficiencies are pretty severe, but with P, not really. Eventually it can be, don't get me wrong. My ideology is that if you can *safely* slow the growth rate by limiting one nutrient, you can slow the uptake of all others, including carbon, given that light is high and driving the nutrient equation as a whole.

I learned from the old school of thought where many folks 5 years ago were keeping P levels low...no more than .5ppm. These folks had stunning tanks, and CO2 mist wasn't even invented, nor was EI for that matter. I noticed in my own 29g tank that CO2 mist and EI was for real. My filter spewed out tons of CO2 bubbles, and I literally dumped in nutrients. Only thing I saw was extreme plant growth, health, and vibrancy. When I upgraded the lighting to 4x54w T5HO on my 75g, I ran into a brick wall. I couldn't figure it out. Algae was rampant, and plants suffered. Well, a big tank with a ton of light requires a ton of nutrients...mainly CO2. Once I got the CO2 up to par, I experimented with nutrients. By figuring the max uptake of N & P in such tank, 6 & .3 ppm respectively, I adjusted my dosing accordingly. From there, I lowered it (algae), and raised it (little algae). But the key factor was CO2 given constant lighting. You could even modify light levels and watch nutrient demands vary.

It's all one big real-time equation; for every action, there will be a reaction. EI is a Godsend and it truly does work, but it's not as simple as it's explained to be once you work outside of the "normal" scope (or tank).


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Avalon that was a great response, and something I will keep in mind should I upgrade to a larger tank.

I think your point isn't stressed enough in many of these "how do I stop this algae" threads. It seems to be of great importance how large one's tank is.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Yeah Banderbe, I am sort of a newbie. I have spent ungodly amounts of time on this and other forums in the last year or so. This particular tank has been up and running in various forms since last Halloween. I have slowly added CO2, ferts, and then better lighting as I could afford it. Each addition seemed to improve my tank, until I came to lighting. Once the light increased, the algae hit me hard. 

I'm trying to heed everyone's advice, but there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus as to how to get rid of it (or even what it is). So I'm working through the suggestions in a semi-scientific manner. I tried EI and (for me) it didn't seem to help. My last choice though is to uproot and bleach everything. Who knows, I may get there. But I want to try some other things first.

My biggest problem is that I have read a whole bunch. I have read tons of posts from almost everyone who has replied to this thread, and I respect everyone of them a great deal. Trying this method or that is not intended to disrespect anyone's opinion, but if you could all agree it would make it much easier, lol.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

dogdoc, another option is hydrogen peroxide added to the tank water, spot treating algae with hydrogen peroxide, etc. You can search around and find some good threads on how much to use, etc. Be sure to turn off your filter though because the hydrogen peroxide can kill your biofilter. Some people have had great success with that method.

As for getting people to agree, that's not likely to happen. I say, pick an expert and go with their advice. I have largely listened to Tom Barr and my tank has responded wonderfully.

_If I were you_, I would first recognize that you will either have to chemically treat your tank (bleach, hydrogen peroxied, excel), or do a 5 or 6 day black out, or maybe even both. Clean filter, hardware, tank walls, etc. I found dosing Excel at 5 times the recommended dosage for one month eliminated algae from my tank. Next, reduce your lighting and lighting period (2 WPG, 6 to 8 hours a day). Then, making sure your tank is densely planted, (ie. you should only be able to see 25% of the substrate surface at most) use the EI method of dosing so you know you are not deficient in any nutrients. If algae begins to show its ugly face again, consider over-dosing Excel until the plants are fully established and growing. Once they're happy you can stop the Excel, or start to gradually use less. Once you feel like your tank is stable, plants are growing and algae isn't returning, begin to increase your lighting period back to whatever you had it at. I like 10 hours. Then start to increase intensity until all your lights are on the full 10 hours. If your ferts are in order, CO2 is sufficient & well circulated(!), and plants are happy (the most important part!) then I bet you will find algae to be a thing of the past. If you find it coming back, I would consider a different water source. I have a sneaking suspicion that some people's tap water is algae friendly but I have nothing to back that up with. I just found my tank was happier when I went to reconstituted RO instead of tap. Again, the above recommendation is what I would do based on the experts that I have read plus my own limited experience.

One last thing I noticed is you say you have a pretty good fish load. If your tank is experiencing ammonia (NH4) spikes then that could very possibly be causing your algae. Folks have commented more than once that ammonia spikes are followed by algae blooms. And, your test kit might not even show any ammonia because the plants (and algae) use it up so quickly. Maybe search around for posts discussing the link between NH4 and algae. So that's another thing to consider- you maybe have too many fish, or if there's enough rotting/decaying detritus, leaf litter, or hidden dead fish body, etc., then you maybe have that as your root source of NH4.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

dogdoc,

This IMO is a key statement made by banderbe:

_One last thing I noticed is you say you have a pretty good fish load. If your tank is experiencing ammonia (NH4) spikes then that could very possibly be causing your algae. Folks have commented more than once that ammonia spikes are followed by algae blooms. And, your test kit might not even show any ammonia because the plants (and algae) use it up so quickly. Maybe search around for posts discussing the link between NH4 and algae. So that's another thing to consider- you maybe have too many fish, or if there's enough rotting/decaying detritus, leaf litter, or hidden dead fish body, etc., then you maybe have that as your root source of NH4._

It sounds like you know what your doing (light, EI, co2, ferts). EI is an "Estimative Index" it does allow you to miss your target by a forgiven mark.
If your plants aren't growing that's one thing, but if they are I wouldn't look to your fert program. Your fish load contains many high waste producers, BNs in particular. If you had a light colored substrate you would not believe what BNs leave behind. They should really be called BMs.

Anyway algae grows based on a light/waste/mass equation. More light, more waste, less mass is the worst equation. Forget the test kits. The waste isn't necesarily going to show up on these kits, but believe me the algae knows it's there. Another problem with a high fish load is that people tend to feed too much trying to make sure they all get some. I feed my fish once a day 6 days a week. Most aquarists tend to overstock their tanks in regards to putting an unnatural amount of fish within your given area. In nature and in some of the most successful planted tanks their is very little livestock.

Again my opinion, but something to think about.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

First of all, thanks to everyone that's been posting here. This is good stuff.

I'm convinced that the variations between setups is larger than we often account for. Just because Mr. X has always had success by doing Y and Z, doesn't mean that it will work for you. No 2 tanks are the same. This means that you sometimes have to fall back on some basic principles:

1) I've not yet seen algae disappear from a particular plant leaf unless physically removed. Establishing plant nirvana will allow new growth to come in clean and stay clean. Old nasty leaves still have to go, no matter how painful it is or how much you paid for the plant.

2) Happy plants keep algae away though unknown mechanisms. Provide what plants need (light, water, macros, micros, CO2) and they'll become happy plants.

3) High fish loads and/or heavy feeding stack the deck against you.

4) Low circulation and filtration stack the deck against you.

5) Consistency is key. Forgetting to dose macros for a week on a high light tank will result in nastiness that will take weeks to recover from. Accidentally leaving the lights on for 72 hours straight is also bad (ask how I know). Do not underestimate the impact of a few mistakes. Once plant growth is stunted, it can take weeks to get back to its former glory.

6) All other things being equal, the addition of CO2 does more for plant growth and health than any other single factor.

7) The easiest setup is a heavily planted tank with easy, rapidly growing plants, a low fish load, high current, 8-10 hrs / day of moderate light, a steady fertilization program, and consistent CO2 levels. Anything that varies from this will make things harder.

8- Test kits lie. Expensive test kits lie sometimes. Cheap test kits lie almost every time. If you make decisions based on your test kits you need to come to terms with this. Making generalized decisions based on a single test result is contrary to basic scientific principles. In general, it is far more accurate to know what is in your tap water and dose accordingly. If you do frequent, large water changes you can safely overdose a bit and have no worries at all.

9) Do not underestimate the value of experience. People who have been doing this for a while recognize patterns and changes in the tank that prompt them to take immediate corrective action. They do this without even realizing it. This knowledge is almost impossible to convey to others. If you persist in the battle against algae, you will eventually win every time.

10) Less light will almost always help.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

Well, I did try to adhere to all of those principles.

I have two Rena XP3's running on this tank (75 gal).
I have a ton of green hygro, anacharis, green temple, ludwigia, along with some huge swords, java ferns, crypts, vals, and others.
I have my CO2 setup on a pH controller.
My lights are on a timer (x2)
I have yet to forget dosing macros, micros.
I read a ton of threads and decided on the EI method for ferts to try and remove any test kit error. 
I prune any algae infested leaves 2-3x/week. The hardest hit are the slow growers. The hygro and anacharis hardly ever have any and grow at an alarming rate.

The only things that I feel I could improve on are:
I probably do have more fish in there than is wise.
I'm still pretty wet behind the ears at this whole planted tank thing. Looking back, reading too much has been a downfall of mine. I was doing well with the setup and was pretty much algae free before adding more light. I just saw too many gorgeous tanks with high light.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

The ten points mentioned by guaiac_boy are spot on. Very good summary!

I would add:

11) Patience, patience, patience... Changes made to any aspect of a planted tank can sometimes result in rapid effects (several days) but many changes will not have an effect for several weeks. And yes, sometimes things get worse before they get better...


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

dogdoc said:


> Well, I did try to adhere to all of those principles.
> 
> I have two Rena XP3's running on this tank (75 gal).
> I have a ton of green hygro, anacharis, green temple, ludwigia, along with some huge swords, java ferns, crypts, vals, and others.
> ...


I think the area most likely to be causing you problems is the pH controller. Unless you first leave the controller out of it, and just inch the CO2 bubble rate upwards until you can tell it is adversely affecting the fish, then back it down a bit until it doesn't affect them, the controller is just guesswork. Once you know the pH where the CO2 is low enough not to affect fish, but as high as possible otherwise, you can use that pH to control to, but even then, you have to know that your KH caused by carbonates remains constant, and it doesn't always do that. So, I suggest increasing your CO2 level.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Exactly how many fish do you have in there?

And one more question...... How on earth do you keep a planted tank in Sheridan, WY? I'm moving to a small town out west soon and I'm a little nervous about being able to find even fish food, let alone plant stuff.


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## dogdoc (Feb 3, 2006)

The fish list in total:
2 pearl gouramis
5 goyder river rainbows
2 australian rainbows
2 emerald rainbows
1 dwarf neon rainbow
5 yoyo loaches
2 BN plecs
6 phantom tetras
3 ottos

Keeping a planted tank here without the aid of the internet would be nothing short of impossible. We have one small LPS that knows absolutely 0 about planted tanks, and Wal-mart. I bought my tank and stand at the LPS. Lights from reefgeek.com. Filters, heaters, CO2 reactor,Tropica Master grow from Big Als. Substrate, plants, pH controller and regulator from aquariumplants.com. A few misc things from Drs. Foster and Smith. Ferts are from Gregwatson.com. I have yet to get any livestock off the net, but I'm not real thrilled with some of the fish from the LPS, so that may be next.

All questions, I get answered on the forums. Its funny actually. I started with my first tank almost 9 months ago now. But when they see me coming at the LPS, they start asking me questions.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

It's not that your overstocked in number of fish, but you have 12 rainbows plus those two plecos. Plecos are unbelievable waste producers. As I said if you had light colored gravel you would not believe how much waste those fish produce. 

guaiac boy summed up alot of good stuff that I agree with and of course no two tanks are the same, but there are a few things that are universal. Too much waste and any light will cause algae if the biofilter and plantload can't handle it. Too much waste and high light, alage is a certainty.


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