# Plants dying but NPT doing it's thing ???



## scrkpr (Jul 25, 2006)

I've had this 29gal set up El Natural for about 3 months now. This is not the first tank I've set up this way, but this one doesn't seem to be thriving so well and I am hoping for some guidance. It is a tropical setup and I have just under 20 inches of fish in there, so it's moderately stocked. 

Anyway, ther plants have never done well. They keep shedding leaves and getting holes. I constantly remove detritus from the bottom of the tank. There is a bloom of green algae and some kind of fuzzy gray looking algae on some plant leaves. It is a low-light tank hosting only a regular flourescent bulb and in front of a nice bright window. I have anacharis, bacopa, cabomba, java moss, and various other low-light easy to care for plants in this tank. I used a bag of soil that had aired out for a few months to set up the tank and no ammonia was initially released into the water. 

Despite the poor plant growth, the water params are all in order. I tested it just this morning and they were as follows: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10, pH 7.6. I just don't understand how my plants barely hang onto life (and in come cases die outright) but the tank stays in good shape. I have never changed the water, just topped off as needed. I'm happy not to do the water changes though  

I would very much like to have a lush green tank and any suggestions would be appreaciated. 

Beki


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Do you have 2 to 3 watts of flourescent light per gallon (in your case it would be 60 to 90 watts)?

Judging from your comments it sounds like you wouldn't have enough light, unless you are overdriving your single flourescent bulb. The window helps, but you probably need more light.

Do you have a way to at least temporarily add more flourescent lighting over and clost to the tank to test this out?

Even a shop light ($10 or so at Lowe's plus some cheap cool white bulbs) straddling over the top of the tank would help test this out, though the light fixture would be longer than the tank. 

If you don't prevent evaporation, if you top off with tap water you are adding dissolved solids that may cause problems as they build up. I use RO water for some of my topping up (some is tap water) and check from time to time the amount of dissolved solids with a TDS meter. If it reads a lot higher than the tap water, I do a water change. The RO water just nearly eliminates dissolved solids in the added water and doesn't add to the problem. It's not necessary, just extends the changes a bit. 

I don't think this would affect your plants unless it was killing your fish, but this is something to think about. Unless you have a lot of evaporation, you should be able to get a few months between major water changes. 

If you try more light and it fixes the problem, please let us know. and don't forget to use duct tape for about 3 inches on the side that faces the window to cover the soil line. More information is in Walstad's book.


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## scrkpr (Jul 25, 2006)

t2000kw said:


> Do you have 2 to 3 watts of flourescent light per gallon (in your case it would be 60 to 90 watts)?
> 
> Judging from your comments it sounds like you wouldn't have enough light, unless you are overdriving your single flourescent bulb. The window helps, but you probably need more light.


I was thinking light may be the problem too. I'm not overdriving the light, so it's not getting too much. I was assuming that big bright window would compenstate for the poor artificial lighting. But I suppose you could be right. After all, the plants aren't growing.

My problem with a shop light is that to put one on top of the tank means I leave the tank open and cause more evaporation. Can you lay those directly on top of an acrylic tank cover or will the cover melt?


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Not sure on that. some plastic tops warp even with the light designed for them, but more so with the older incandescent fixtures (which you can retrofit with CF bulbs anyway now). 

I have a glass top and put the light fixture right on top. I can say that the plastic rim of the tank does not warp or melt. Maybe you could put plastic wrap over the part that the light doesn't cover? That would reduce (not eliminate) evaporation. Another idea is to use a flourescent floor lamp if you have one, but I doubt you do. We have a couple for full spectrum reading lamps. If you have some desk lapms with CF bulbs you could somehow shine them in through the top, or even from th esides, perhaps? Just make sure you shut them off so they're not on 24/7 or you'll have some algae problem to deal with. 

Or just put up with some evaporation as we are in one tank and top it up frequently and do a water change more often to compensate for solids buildup. We are trying to locate a one piece 55 gal glass top (it's an older tank without a center cross brace). I think someone else on the APC forums will be getting back with me soon on the cost of shipping.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

The lighting is certainly a possibility, and if it's easy to temporarily add more, I'd try it like t2000kw said. If it's a pain in the butt to rig something up, you might want to rule out some other possibilities first. It should be pointed out that many folks on this forum have had success with <2 wpg and good window light, including Diana herself.

Here is a rundown of other possibilities I can think of:
Your water might be extremely soft (or hard). I've had plants melt in very soft water. *What's your GH and KH?*
You might have a major CO2 deficiency. The reason this comes to mind is because the gray algae you mention sounds like black brush algae (BBA). High-tech folks often rid BBA by adding more CO2. *Are you running an airstone, biowheel, or something else that might be driving CO2 out of the water?*
You might have a bad batch of soil, or not the right amount. *What type and how much soil are you using? Do you happen to know the ingredients?* If you've used this same batch before with success, it's probably not the problem though.
Your lighting might be poor spectrum. *What is the spectrum of your bulbs?* Anything between 4100-6700k ("cool white" or "daylight") should be fine for a low tech setup though. *When was the last time you replaced the bulbs?* They lose a lot of kick after the first 6-12 months.
Since you have green water (I assume the pea soup stuff by your description) and measurable nitrates, you probably have sufficient nutrients for plant growth. I would guess nutrients aren't the problem.

Hope this helps


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## goldielovr (Apr 12, 2006)

Perhaps it's the *type* of plants that are at fault.? I didn't see any floating or stem plants mentioned. Why don't you try to get your hands on some floating lettuce, red root floaters, frogbit or duckweed, then add some stem plants like elodea, wisteria, hornwort, najas grass, with the idea that you *must* have more nutrient available than your plants are using or you wouldn't have algae. 

Get some slow growing plants and plants with that 'arial advantage' (in addition to the light and KH/GH values attended to) and see if things don't pick up.


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## scrkpr (Jul 25, 2006)

littleguy said:


> Here is a rundown of other possibilities I can think of:
> Your water might be extremely soft (or hard). I've had plants melt in very soft water. *What's your GH and KH?*
> You might have a major CO2 deficiency. The reason this comes to mind is because the gray algae you mention sounds like black brush algae (BBA). High-tech folks often rid BBA by adding more CO2. *Are you running an airstone, biowheel, or something else that might be driving CO2 out of the water?*
> You might have a bad batch of soil, or not the right amount. *What type and how much soil are you using? Do you happen to know the ingredients?* If you've used this same batch before with success, it's probably not the problem though.
> ...


1. I don't know the kH or gH of my water but I have well water and other El Natural tanks in my house that use the same water don't seem to have a problem.
2. CO2 huh? I hadn't thought of that. I don't use any airstones or anything like that b/c I know that can screw with a planted tank. I do have a HOB but I don't let it cascade much b/c I keep the water level pretty high. It also sounds like BBA to me though now that you mention it. Thanks for identifying that stuff! 
3. I am blaming the soil right now. I used just plain top soil. I used it before in a 55 gal tank and it took 3 weeks for the ammonia and nitrites to disipate. So I let it air out for a few months before I used it on this tank and a little 1 gal betta tank I have. Neither are doing really super. No ammonia was released this time. It seemed like a good thing when I set it up, but now I wonder if I "aired out" all the good stuff too.
4. Yes the bulb is the right spectrum, and yes it needs to be replaced.
5. I do not have pea soup water.

Goldielovr: I know I didn't list all my plants but I do have floating plants. I have hornwort, duckweed, and until recently water lettuce. The lettuce died with holes in it.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Can you hang a shop light over the tank and cover the tank with clear plastic, not completely, but enough to cut down on evaporation (unless you don't mind topping up frequently and water changing to make up for solids build up over time)?

That came to mind as a cheap experiment. You might already have a shop light. You can buy them, pre-wired now, for only about $10-$15, and two cool white bulbs shouldn't set you back more than a few dollars more. You'll have light beyond the tank, but that won't hurt--it will just not look like an appropriate setup, but you're concern right now is whether or not you have enough light. I should have said 1.5 to 2 W--not 2-3W--of light is suggested. Not sure where I got that 2-3 W figure from. Poor memory sometimes! We use 80W over a 55 gallon, 160 W over a 100 gallon.


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## Lawrence Lee (Jul 17, 2004)

1) Are your plants taken from another of your established tanks or new from the store. If the latter, it needs time to acclimatise, even convert to submersed, low-tech growth. If it's from your established tank, look and see what are the things that are differing between tanks. Generally, plants need time (1 week to 2 months) to acclimatise to a tank that is vastly different in parameters from where it came before.

2) Add some potassium and see if the plants pick up and the holes stop. Potassium is a macro nutrient that is often missed out if the tank is not dosed High tech style.

3) Drop in some emersed growth plants that don't need lots of light. Water lettuce and hyacinths need high-lighting levels. Try duckweed, frogbits and salvinia. If they grow well, you will eliminate the CO2 sufficiency question. 

If they don't, look at your lighting levels, then your macro elements (I know, your testkit says 10ppm NO3, but testkits normally test total Nitrogen nirate which reads 4.5 times higher than NO3, so you may be low on NO3. Not to forget Potassium and PO4 too).

Don't be too concerned about rising TDS from topping up evaporation unless your tap water is liquid rock. Plants will readily acclimatise to gradually rising TDS levels if it is due to evaporation. Even fishes and shrimps will not be too affected by a change of 2x the TDS reading if the transition is made over a 2 hour span (Which is very quick compared to evaporation).

Good luck.


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## scrkpr (Jul 25, 2006)

Some plants are from the store and some are from an established tank. None are doing well and it has been months now. The duckweed I have grows like...well a weed. Lawrence thanks for the tip on TDS, and I have some macro nutrients laying around from "back in the day" I'll give it a try. 

I think it's most likely the lighting and will get it looked into forthwith. I think I'll get a shop light and a glass canopy. I have jumping fish so I really can't leave anything open and plastic ain't gonna cut it.


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## Lawrence Lee (Jul 17, 2004)

If duckweed is multiplying very fast in your current setup. you can safely exclude the following problems:
1) Light
2) CO2

Macro-nutrients may then be a yes or no as a solution. Since duckweed is multiplying very fast, we can assume there's sufficient NPK at the top layer of the water column. But what about the other layers? 

HOBs do move the water around, but not exactly very well at all layers, so your plants may be starved of nutrients in areas where the current doesn't visit. (Search Prandtl layer for more details.)

I'd suggest borrowing a small powerhead to get a gentle internal circulation flowing around the tank. Without doing anything else extra from your routine, observe for 5-10 days.

If you spot new growth, congratulations. If not, then next step is to add some NPK, and clear some duckweed to allow more light to get in to the blants below surface.

Do it in steps and observe.

Patience.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I have two HOB filters- one is a biowheel. I never thought of those as detrimental to CO2. I also have about 110 watts for my 36 gal. - my lfs guy told me "you can never have too much light." I know that's a lie, now.  My pathetic colony of duckweed hasn't grown at all- does that point to CO2? My GH is about 8, pH at 6, KH = 1.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

I agree with those who say that insufficient light might be the main cause of your problems. 

On duckweed: That is a great nutrient remover. It is so great, in fact, that it will remove all of the nitrates in the aquarium if there is enough of it. That happened to me once, when a very stable tank developed an algae problem after I let the duckweed get out of hand. Testing showed the nitrates to be zero, after staying at 5 to 10 for months.

Good luck!

Bill


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

I always thought that the idea was to starve the algae of any nutrients and that plants can do that for you. Does too little nitrate favor algae growth?


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

t2000kw said:


> I always thought that the idea was to starve the algae of any nutrients and that plants can do that for you. Does too little nitrate favor algae growth?


Oh, yes! 

The idea in controlling algae is to keep the plants healthy. Algae are more adaptable to limited nutrients - they don't need as much as do the higher plants and they (probably) grow faster.

Also, unhealthy plants lose leaves which decay and produce ammonia, which algae just loves!

Bill


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## essabee (Oct 11, 2006)

By using soil in NPT what we do is supply the initial nutrients till fish mulm takes over.

It appears that you have used a old batch of topsoil which has been left to air for months. It may have lost most of its nutrients in the process. So when you used it it failed to feed the plants (there could be the added light problem too) and establish them.

Why not try to dose a little PMDD and increase your light to 1.5 WPG at least.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

essabee said:


> It appears that you have used a old batch of topsoil which has been left to air for months. It may have lost most of its nutrients in the process.


Interesting... I have set up tanks with top soil that had stayed in a
bag for years. And there was no problem. Does keeping soil in a bag
preserve its nutrient?


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

> I have anacharis, bacopa, cabomba, java moss, and various other low-light easy to care for plants in this tank.


I would not consider Anacharis and cabomba to be low-light plants. Perhaps the plants are not as low-light and easy care as you assume. For easy care plants you might try some Hygrophylia species.



> It is a tropical setup and I have just under 20 inches of fish in there, so it's moderately stocked.


Different people have different standards. I would consider that to be bordering on overstocked. My preference is 1/2" per gallon but this is not a standard that I always follow nor necessary for success.



> My problem with a shop light is that to put one on top of the tank means I leave the tank open and cause more evaporation. Can you lay those directly on top of an acrylic tank cover or will the cover melt?


I have T12/30's on sitting on an 1/4" acrylic sheet in a light fixture with no warping of the acrylic but would not risk setting it on top of an acrylic tank. For an acrylic tank or a thinner acrylic sheet, I would use a wood spacer to keep the lights off the tank if using shop lights and monitor the temperature of the acrylic closely to prevent warping.



> Does keeping soil in a bag preserve its nutrient?


A relevant quote concerning bags of soil.


> open up the bag to the air, and let the soil bacteria work while you wait. Remember that most soils contain plentiful bacteria that will break down some of the chemicals and organic matter that could cause problems when you set up the tank.
> 
> For example, one hobbyist had problems with one recently purchased soil. Several months later, he used soil from the same bag and had no problems. I'm sure that the bacteria had been busily composting during the intervening months.
> 
> Remember that soil is alive


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Thank you for the info. When there are left over soil, instead of creating garbage, should the soil be left in a closed bag for later use?


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

> should the soil be left in a closed bag for later use?


With the bag open or closed, I would save the dirt for use later.

Here is another 'Diana' quote relevant to this thread.


> I have always recommended starting out with a large variety of submerged and floating plants. Basically, throw in the kitchen sink!


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