# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Top soils - good or bad?



## AnthonyN (Jun 15, 2005)

Hello everyone!,
Is top soil that is sold in garden centers a good choice? I was just wondering beacause I've had a hard time finding potting soil that dosn't have perlite, added fertilizers, wetting agents etc.
Thank you for your help.

Anthony


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

AnthonyN: I think the problem w/ most top soils is that they have quite a bit of manure, which could cause problems w/ excess nutrients. I got my soil from Home Depot, just a big bag of regular potting soil. Just make sure to do a bottle test w/ any soil you get before you use it...

-ricardo


----------



## Dave P (Dec 13, 2005)

> AnthonyN: I think the problem w/ most top soils is that they have quite a bit of manure, which could cause problems w/ excess nutrients.


I would have to echo Ricardo's comments and add that if the nutrients don't cause a problem, then the liberation of excess tannins and other humic substances might become an issue.

The soil underlayer in my 46 gallon aquarium is pulverized topsoil that I purchased from a local nursery. The bag had no listing of ingredients, which concerned me since I had a nagging feeling that it might contain manure, but I took the gamble anyway. I believe the manure was well composted, since the cycling of ammonia was very rapid and is presently undetectable; however, I do feel that it liberated a massive amount of DOC into the water column. This has interfered with the transmission of light through the water column. To this day, I'm still combating tannins and other DOCs which have colored the water a light mahogany.


> Just make sure to do a bottle test w/ any soil you get before you use it...


Do the bottle test; it will save you time and labor in the long run.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

The best soil substrate is one with as few organics in it as possible. (The organics come from the fish and other natural tank processes.)
This is readily available here in 40 pound bags for 3 or 4 dollars. 


I soak mine for 2 or 3 weeks, changing the water several times, to further reduce the organics in it. There are always bubbles and a gunky surface film in the risnsing pail. Those are better in my back yard than in my aquarium.

Good luck!

Bill


----------



## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

I use the cheap top soil from Home Depot..then mix in some rabit manure (slow release fertilizer)...makes heavy root feeders like Val and Amazon swords VERY happy.


----------



## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

BobB: You actually ADD manure to your soil? I usually try to find soil that doesn't have it. I know the Home Depot stuff I get does have manure and I had problems w/ high nitrites when I first set up the tank. Did you find this problem? Also, where do you get rabbit manure?

-ricardo


----------



## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

ricardo-i've never tested for nitrites when i set up a tank but both plants and fish seem happy.
i get my rabbit manure from a friend of mine who raises rabbits. My normal recipe is in the range of 4 dry quarts under the soil when
I set up a tank (12" x 48' footprint). Several years back
I figured raw rabbit and horse manure worked fine on my broccoli so I'd try it in the tank. Got better results with rabbit than I did horse.
I've been hesitant to try cow or chicken manure.
They do not work well in the garden unless well composted first.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hey Guys, I would nix the manure idea.... unless you're growing water lilies outdoors in full sun.

There's a BIG difference between fertilizing vegetables and submerged aquatic plants.

Land plants like brocolli grow quickly, and thus, rapidly take up ammonia and nitrites for their nitrogen needs. Aquatic plants grow much slower, so ammonia and nitrites hang around in the water with the fish.

Moreover, land plants are in aerobic soils where soil ammonia is quickly converted to harmless nitrates. These nitrates rarely become toxic. 

All submerged soils are anaerobic. They quickly generate toxins from added nitrogen fertilizers. For example, nitrates are rapidly converted to nitrites by soil bacteria (see Nitrate Respiration, my book p. 65).

Every time I've added nitrate-containing fertilizers to my soil substrates, I've created nitrite problems for my fish.

And if you add ammonia or urea, you're adding the toxins directly.

Manure is going to have lots of nitrogen, much more than aquarium plants need, but plenty that will cause problems for fish.


----------



## peter bradley (Oct 12, 2004)

where aquatic loam is used will initial high nitrite levels be absorbed as the plants grow and biological filter kicks in. peter


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

> where aquatic loam is used will initial high nitrite levels be absorbed as the plants grow and biological filter kicks in. peter


If by "aquatic loam" you mean an enriched substrate like potting soil, the answer is "eventually", assuming that the algae outbreak that will accompany that nutrient overdose doesn't smother the plants before they've had a chance to start growing.

Of course, you'll then have a lot of nitrates to deal with.

It's best to go with a substrate with as little organic matter in it as posssible. Rely on the fish to supply those.

Bill


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by peter bradley:
> where aquatic loam is used will initial high nitrite levels be absorbed as the plants grow and biological filter kicks in. peter


Hi Peter,

I don't think you'll have a nitrite problem with soils, even highly organic ones...as long as chemical fertilizers (potassium nitrate, ammonium nitrate, etc) have not been added to them. There should be enough nitrite uptake by plants and nitrifying bacteria to keep nitrite levels low.

Organic matter like the peat in most potting soils is highly decomposed and "stripped" of its nitrogen. That means that there's little nitrogen to cause problems.

Organic matter in substrates can be good for the planted aquariua. Organic matter like peat and well-decomposed compost releases CO2 into the water that stimulates plant growth--- without CO2 injection.

In my tanks, plants grow very well in potting soils with their high organic content.


----------



## peter bradley (Oct 12, 2004)

many thanks for your reply Dianna the plants are growing at a rate of knots especially the echinodorus but cuurently nitrites and nitates high could of course put mature sponges in filter and change water to deal with the problem but as there are no fish in the tank and no algae problems. i plan to let the tank run in the hope that it will sort it self out. my previous setup using same aquatic loam after 3 m0nths has 0 nitrite and10%nitrate . the only diifference between the two setups is in the first tank i used 1/2 inch soil and 1.5 inches fine silver quartze the tank is 100 litres the new set up is 180 litres and has 1.5 inches of loam and 2.5 inches of fine silver quartze .Iwill let you know when it is live and you will be able to watch its progress warts and all . many thanks peter


----------



## peter bradley (Oct 12, 2004)

i hope pictures arrived first shows tank day one . second shows tank 10days later third shows first tank after 3 months peter


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I agree that the nitrite situation will probably disappear.

Look forward to seeing the pictures!


----------



## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

Diana-I've used rabbit manure for years with no adverse effects.
In the garden, it decomposes very slowly. I've been told it's similar to the half life scenario.
Any thoughts as to whether this holds true in an aquatic environment also?


----------

