# December 9 Meeting



## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Since only one of us was able to attend, I'm thinking about ordering the AGA 2006 Conference DVD to watch at this meeting. Any interst if I can get it in time?


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Sounds fun to me!!

jB


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## cpc1007 (Sep 21, 2004)

Emc2 said:


> Since only one of us was able to attend, I'm thinking about ordering the AGA 2006 Conference DVD to watch at this meeting. Any interst if I can get it in time?


And also maybe we could help you set up the Nano tank if you want?


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I have an abundance of E. tenellus (red) and will bring some to the meeting on 12/9 if anyone is interested. Just reply back here if you are so I can get an idea of anyone who wants some. I will also have some Barclay Longifolia to bring if there's some interest.

I'm looking for some Eleocharis sp. (hair grass). If someone has that I'm definitely interested in picking some of that up.
And some Cherry shrimp as well.

Len


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

Oddly enough the DVDs for Friday night will be better than being there, since the band next door was playing so loudly. 

I don't think I'm going to make this one, since my wife's reef club is heading to Pacific East Aquaculture (formerly Dr. Mac's) for a behind-the-scenes tour, and I will be sans-car. I do want to make a meeting soon and "debrief" everyone a little bit.

Jeff


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Jeff:

Enjoy Dr. Mac's. The softy tank was beautiful. I'm staying as far away as I can from that place otherwise I'll end up forced to scratch that reef itch. 

I'm not sure I'll be able to get the DVD in time but I'll give it a shot.

Len, I'd like some hair grass also. I'll try to see if anyone is selling any and if I can get it in time.

Max, the nano is at my office but I can always bring it home if that is something people are interested in. That sounds like fun.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Len,

I would love some E. tenellus.

I might have some hairgrass to bring to the meeting. I will have to see at the end of next week.

jB


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

Ok, I'll harvest some before coming to the meeting. Keep in mind that this is the red variety. Actually I've never grown the 'green' variety.
And if you will bring some hair grass that would be great. How are the Cherry Shrimp holding up? Can you bring some of them as well?

Also, I will need directions to the house where the meeting will be.

Len


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Jason;

Have any of that Crypt parva we got from Jeff Senske left? Even though I begged off last month, I have a sudden need for more.

Cheers.
Jim


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

I have a little i can spare jim. Not what i would call a crop or anything. Just some small plants. Let me know if this works.

Also, I am looking for the following plants. Does anyone have these?

Ammannia gracilis
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Ludwigia arcuata
Nesaea crassicaulis
Pogostemon stellatus "fine leaf"
Rotala sp. 'Vietnam'
HC
....or any fine leaved plant.

I am back to the collector stage for a few months. I am looking forward to trying some new stuff.

Thanks

jB


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Jason;

I'll take whatever Crypts. you can spare.

I just got a couple stems of Rotala 'Vietnam' and 'Nanjenshan' from Aaron Talbot at the GWAPA meeting last weekend. Unfortunately not enough to share a week later (the trip home was a bit of a bother).

Drop him a line.

Cheers.
Jim


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Jim, 

You can take parva from my tank at the meeting. 

Erin


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Erin;

I'm afraid I forgot your street address and your e-mail was purged from my saved folder. Can you PM me?

Thanks.
Jim


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## cpc1007 (Sep 21, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> I have a little i can spare jim. Not what i would call a crop or anything. Just some small plants. Let me know if this works.
> 
> Also, I am looking for the following plants. Does anyone have these?
> 
> ...


I got the HC you need. And find a time to come to my place so we can see what else you might want from my tank(although it's totallt a mess now).

Max


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

*Looking to get plants*

Folks,

My name is Oz and I will be at Saturday's meeting. I am looking to pick up some plants for a 20 gal. high tank I have at school (I teach). I am a newbie and have a question. Will the plants last until Monday after school when I can I plant them? Is there anything I may need to do to make sure they last if they can?

Oz


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Hey Oz,

Im glad you are going to make it. You will have no problems. After all, we ship them all over the country and they sit in bags for 3-4 days, im sure you will be fine with 2 days

Looking forward to meeting you.

jason


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

FYI, Mark is having an open house at Anubias Design in Bensalem the same time as our meeting. Anyone interested in swinging by on the way home?

Cheers.
Jim


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

I ordered a bunch of plants to scape the nano but so far only the dwarf riccia has shown up. I'm hoping the hairgrass will be there when I get home. I have a few mosses in my big tank and Jason is bringing some anubias nana petite. If anyone has a good stem plant for a nano tank it would be much appreciated.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

DelawareJim said:


> FYI, Mark is having an open house at Anubias Design in Bensalem the same time as our meeting. Anyone interested in swinging by on the way home?
> 
> Cheers.
> Jim


I am with yah Jim.

Oz, I will bring some things for you. Low light plants easy to care for like moss and ferns.

Max has Jason covered with HC....thats cool

Jason I will throw you some stems when I grow them out, my list is insane now thanks to Craig, Aaron and Ellis.

Frank


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

*Thanks*

I want to thank Erin, Jason, Len, Jim, and Frank for making me and my brother-in-law, Keith, feel welcome at the meeting today. I was impressed with the knowledge and generosity of the group.

Do any of you know where to buy some of the drift wood we saw at the meeting? I have been searching for some time now and I am not having much luck.


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Oz, it was nice meeting you guys too. Glad you could make it. Let uus know how the setup goes.

You can buy that wood Aquaforest. aquaforestaquarium.com

You may also be able to buy it from ADG. I'm not sure whether Jeff has it in stock right now though. aquaforestaquarium.com


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Oz, pleasure meeting you and Keith. I am pretty new at this and will learn right along side of you. I am glad I can help.

Keith did a good job arranging the driftwood today.

Now I want an ADA cube...


Frank


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Oz;

Glad you and Kieth could make it. Thanks for hosting Erin. Had fun again, and I appreciate the plants.

So what did you get from Mark, Frank?

Cheers.
Jim


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Great to see everyone!! It was good to meet you Oz and Keith, I hope to see you at future meetings.

Here are a couple shots for our meeting.

Thanks Erin for hosting and showing us your beautiful tank.

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Oh and Erin......

Delaware Valley Aquatic Gardeners Association - Planted Aquarium Enthusiasts - How To Secure 'Dwarf' Riccia

:dance:

jB


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I had a great time as well. Thank you Erin for hosting. Really impressive tank.
Now we just have to do something about that dog...........................
Oz and Keith, I'll echo everyone else's sentiments....a pleasure to meet both of you and looking forward to seeing what you do with the new tank once it gets planted. 
I hope everybody has a peaceful holiday and am looking forward to future meetings.

Len


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

DelawareJim said:


> So what did you get from Mark, Frank?
> 
> Cheers.
> Jim


Hey,

I got the L205 
PlanetCatfish :: Cat-eLog :: Loricariidae :: Peckoltia sp(l205)

Here is my pic from today.












Jason Baliban said:


> Great to see everyone!!
> Thanks Erin for hosting and showing us your beautiful tank.
> 
> jB


Oh yeah duh..Erin your tank is marvelous! Thanks soo much for having us 

Max,

That was the L. inclinata var. "cuba" that we talked about sitting on the table...I brought one for you. Sorry I didnt get to see you there.

Frank


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> Max,
> 
> That was the L. inclinata var. "cuba" that we talked about sitting on the table...I brought one for you. Sorry I didnt get to see you there.
> 
> Frank


I scooped that one up max, but im sure i will have a bunch of it shortly....it had some beginnings of branching on it.

jB


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Great pics Jason, its always cool to look and think about what we were talking about.

I think the hands on nano tank setup this meeting was a hit!

I know that stuff is in good hands. I should have more soon too.....crosses fingers....


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## cpc1007 (Sep 21, 2004)

Hey everyone,
Sorry I couldn't make it to the meeting. I had to stay home making phone calls to arrange repairments for my condo in San Diego, had a water heater leaking and the entire living room was flooded. 

Frank, Thanks a lot for bringing the L. 'cuba' for me. I believe you and Jason will grow a lot more of this plant in a short time, I will just give it a wait for now..) Hope the CRS are doing well over there, mine are quite active although the white color has faded away partially on some shrimps due to stress/new environment(well, it may not grow back). 


Erin, nice tanks. Too bad I missed the chance messing around with your nano..) Btw, I have tons of Pellia (Monosolenium tenerum), let me know if you can use some.


Max


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Hi Max,

More next meeting....growing nice. Tank is going strong.

I just cleaned the filter the other day and found 10+ RCS in there....wife told me hey there are shrimp in this bucket....found another 12....must have hatched in substrate sitting in a bucket!!?!? discus are loving the RCS....I can only hope my CRS breed like this!!!

It was a mad dash relocating the tank....couldnt get the temp just right. (Jason, No making fun of me for having too many tanks  ) Had some trouble but everything is OK now. Just fed them and they are all fighting over a wafer.

The CRS colors came back. I dont know anything about grading them...so I am just happy they are red/white and have defined stripes....just in time for Christmas!!! 


Frank


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> Jason, No making fun of me for having too many tanks


I only make fun because i am jealous!!

jB


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## JLudwig (Feb 16, 2004)

Heya gang,

Looked like everyone had a good time, sorry I could not make it (I didn't make it to Dr. Mac's either). I'm going to shoot for the Jan meeting, but no promises, since the thesis still isn't done  

Cheers,
Jeff


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## cpc1007 (Sep 21, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> The CRS colors came back. I dont know anything about grading them...so I am just happy they are red/white and have defined stripes....just in time for Christmas!!!
> 
> Frank


Throw in some X'mas moss and you will have an in-tank X'mas tree with candy canes on it....)


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Jason Baliban said:


> I only make fun because i am jealous!!
> 
> jB


 
IMagine if/when they all look nice!
Quantity isnt always best 



cpc1007 said:


> Throw in some X'mas moss and you will have an in-tank X'mas tree with candy canes on it....)


Yeah LOL...I think I have some to toss in I am getting some other plants out for various reasons.

Hey I will post a pic in the CRS thread.

I could really use your help with my Apistos....I dont know what to do.


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

*Plants are in the tank*

Hey tank gang!

Well my schedule finally let me get those plants in the tank on Friday. Believe it or not, all but two specimens were still good to go.

I can tell you right now I LOATHE flourite. I bought some nice DW from ADA and I had to aqua-scape the tank with no idea where the stuff was because of the fluorite cloud. Same for the plants. I am sure when I get to work on Monday the tank will look like a blind man scaped it.

Now the questions:

What type of nutrients do the plants need? I am thinking about using the estimated index method with water changed until I get this down better.

How many bubbles per second (or minute) should I see in the bubble counter on the CO2 system? I guess if the tank looks cloudy with bubbles I have it too high.

Finally, thank you again for the plants and the ideas. It was really fun working with the tank.

Keith and I are planning on setting up a nursery tank in his basement (we live about a minute from each other). We want to collect plants and become a resource for other members.


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

*Okay I was lazy*

I asked about nutrients and it took me about 30 seconds to find the EI guide. Now all I have to do is get the chemicals.


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Frank;

Check the GWAPA website for Apistos. Quite a few members are really into them right now, and Francine is our resident Apisto guru. She breeds and imports quite a variety.

GWAPA: Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association

Cheers.
Jim


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

rowmath said:


> I asked about nutrients and it took me about 30 seconds to find the EI guide. Now all I have to do is get the chemicals.


All of us have had some success with EI, and i think its a great place to start. It will certainly help you understand nutrients and healthy growth.

Aquarium Plants, Aquatic Plants, Planted Aquariums, and Aquarium Plant Fertilizer

This is were most of us get our chems.

Keep us updated on your progress.

It was nice to meet you and keith.

Oh, about your co2. You want to target at least 30ppm of co2 in your water. Unfortunately, bubble count is a very inacurate way to determine that. Most of us you the KH/PH method. In short, this allows you to determine what your co2 concentration is by measuring your PH and KH and then looking at a chart. When you add co2 to water, it makes the water more acidic, which brings the PH down. People did this for a long time.... After some time most of us realized that you can be pretty sure you co2 is ok if your PH is 1 whole point lower then what your water was before you started adding Co2.

Example...

Let your tank or tap water sit for 24 hours without co2 injection. Measure your PH.....lets say its 7.4. Then add co2 until your PH gets to 6.4(1 whole point lower). At this point, you should have enough co2 in your tank.

Always be mindful of your critters while adding co2. If you see them having distress, be sure to back off on co2 a bit.

Hope this helps

jB


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

*Which to choose*

Jason,

Thanks for the input. It is information a newbie like myself can understand.

Here is the fert I am looking to buy, PMDD Store: PMDD Pre-Mix, Dry Aquatic Plant Fertilizers.

I am looking for ease while I learn so the premixed nature of it seems good. Your thoughts?

Oz


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

Oz -
If you could refresh my memory as to the lighting and whether you are going to be using pressurized or DIY CO2 it would help with advising.
The reason I ask is that each tank is different and a 'one dose' becomes ineffective, especially if you are talking about a higher light tank which I think you were leaning towards when we spoke at the meeting. 
Higher light is less forgiving if the proper balance is not found. For this reason, IMO individual dosing is required under those circumstances. I would only recommend PMDD for a low light environment.
There are a few calculators available to assist with dosages which really simplify the process.

Len


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

I 2nd len here....

EI is written to utilize seperate nutrients. Its easy to get started, so no worries.

These are the three chems you will need....

PMDD Store: Mono Potassium Phosphate 1 lb., Dry Aquatic Plant Fertilizers
PMDD Store: Potassium Sulfate 1 lb., Dry Aquatic Plant Fertilizers
PMDD Store: Potassium Nitrate 1 lb., Dry Aquatic Plant Fertilizers

You will also need micros (iron). I would use regular flourish for this. Or TMG if you can find it.

jB


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

*Tank update*

When I got in on Monday I found the tube supply CO2 to the diffuser had come undone. I had bought the ADA CO2 system and the silicone hose supplied *barely* fit on the glass pieces. I realize that is should be tight but I was seriously concerned of braekage as I installed it.

The flourite has settled out all over the plants and DW. I does not look nice, but I am on my way. I need to get some nutrients in the tank pronto. I fear I may lose some plants soon. Some look sickly. Oh well, this is how you learn


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

No worries. We have plenty of plants if these don't make it.


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

If I find myself starting over, I will probablly replace the substrate. I am so surprised that so many people like flourite. I realize that it does do what it is supposed to, but IMHO the stuff is way too "messy" to deal with.


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I've used Flourite with just a light rinsing, with little clouding. The secret is to fill the tank very slowly using a bowl or saucer to cut the disturbance down. 
From there it's a matter of being extra careful when moving plants or hard scape for a while until the tiny particles sift down into the substrate.

Len


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## rowmath (Oct 29, 2006)

Two new questions:

How low do you place the CO2 diiffuser? I assume as low as the tubing will allow.

What water testing supplies do you folks use?


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Water testing? I'm supposed to test???  

I have a Lamotte kit. 

I would put the diffusor as low as possile so the bubbles have longer contact with the water.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

I use a Hagen master kit. Im not sure how accurate they are, or if they are consistant from refill to refill, but it is close enough to give me a ball park.

jB


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

I started out with Lamotte kits until That Fish Place stopped carrying them. Now I use the Tetra Laborette for the basic tests; pH, KH, GH, NO2, NO3, and Salifert kits for PO4 and Fe.

Like anything, you get what you pay for. The Lamotte kits are just about the best, but they're expensive, harder to find than they used to be, and you never know how old they are.

The Tetra kits some people look down their noses at because they are supposedly not that accurate, but since they're cheap, they have a pretty high turnover rate and the reagents are fresher.

After a while, you can kinda eyeball it as to how the plants are looking.

Cheers.
Jim


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

I use mostly AP kits. Like some of the above responses, they are not the most accurate but I use them more for reference (did it go up, did it go down) than anything else. And after a while I find that pH is about all I have to test for and even that is only occasionally for calculating CO2 PPM when adjusting bubble rates.
If you start using the EI dosing regimen and doing a weekly 50%er there really is no need to test much IMO.

Len


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## Emc2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Jim, unless things have changed recently you can buy Lamotte kits directly from Lamotte in Maryland. Fresh Water Aquaculture Testing Kits: Aquaculture & Fish Farming Products - © LaMotte Company


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