# surface film



## searley (Jun 19, 2006)

Since the addition of CO2 and extra lighting my plants have been doing really well, all the soft stem plants that would normally die within a couple of days are really going for it!

even plants that have been dormant for months are now growing, all the grasses etc are sending out runners, so i am happy.

I am seeing some algea growth, but i assume this will drop off once the plants have consumed all the nitrates etc, and thay have to start competeing??

The only thing i am not sure about, is that i am starting to get a film covering the water surface when i stick my finger through the film, it feels slightly greasy, and it colours my finger green.. any idea what it is and how to deal with it??


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Yes, CO2 can do wonders!



> I am seeing some algea growth, but i assume this will drop off once the plants have consumed all the nitrates etc, and thay have to start competeing??


You do not want this to happen! You need to fertilize your plants. If your plants consume all the nutrients, the algae will take over. You need to make sure to provide all the plants need in slight abundance to keep algae away. Here's a couple of references which might help you some.
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/index.html
http://www.rexgrigg.com/
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/science-of-fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html

The surface film is a normal occurrence in planted tanks. You can angle your spray bar filiter return slightly up to cause slight rippling on the surface. Also a variety of fish will eat this, guppies, platties, mollies, endler's.


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## searley (Jun 19, 2006)

Thank you for your reply

i have read some of the links, and just want to make sure on something

macro's = Nitrate and Phosphate

micro's supplied by a good aquatic fertalizer??


The reason i ask is that i did a nitrate test this morning, and its sky high as usual, and was assuming this to be the cause of the algea so i am assuming that i dont want to go adding "macro's" until i have the current levels under control??

i guess my only way of starting to do this is get an RO unit and use RO water with something like RO Right to replace the trace elements??


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Macros = nitrates (NO3), phosphates (PO4), potassium (K), carbon as CO2 or via Excel. 

Micros = all the trace elements, minerals, vitamins, etc. An example of this would be Flourish or CSM+B, for example. You can look at a label of one of these to get an idea of all the stuff in there.

I wouldn't recommend going to RO, if you don't have to. I know some folks swear by it, but for my way of thinking, why take out stuff you'll need to add back? You say your nitrates are 'sky high'. How much is this? If they aren't above 30ppm, don't worry about it.

If your fish load is too high, or your substrate is real old and hasn't been vaccumed in a while, or your filter very dirty, you could have causes of high nitrates. Ask your water system for a report on the water. That way you can see what's exactly coming out of your tap.

Are you sure your test kit is accurate? You can determine this by making a known concentration sample of NO3 and testing it. Many folks have pulled their hair out believing their test kits, only to find out later on that they weren't accurate.


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## searley (Jun 19, 2006)

Bert H said:


> I wouldn't recommend going to RO, if you don't have to. I know some folks swear by it, but for my way of thinking, why take out stuff you'll need to add back? You say your nitrates are 'sky high'. How much is this? If they aren't above 30ppm, don't worry about it.
> 
> Are you sure your test kit is accurate? You can determine this by making a known concentration sample of NO3 and testing it. Many folks have pulled their hair out believing their test kits, only to find out later on that they weren't accurate.


Hi my Nitrate levels are about 100ppm, this is down to a lack of interest in the last year or so, and letting things slack a bit..

I am working on getting this level down by changing about 20% water on a daily basis, i figured this way the changes to the water chemistry would not be too great

the tap water is coming out at about 25ppm, i guess i could simply get an inline nitrate remover


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Sounds like your tank, filter, substrate need a good cleaning. I would suggest doing a third or a quarter of the tank, including good deep gravel vac's, every 3-4 days along with a 50% water change. 

If your tap's at 25ppm, you shouldn't ever have to dose NO3.  Just make sure your PO4 and K are OK.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

....and make sure your Test Kit is OK!
They do expire.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

What sort of filter setup are you running? You don't want a lot of surface agitation in a planted tank, but you do want a little bit still. Also, if you like livebearing fish such as guppies, mollies, swordtails etc... they will munch on the surface scum and keep it quite clean.


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## searley (Jun 19, 2006)

[Vancat]

Yes all my test kits are ok, i am friends with the owner of a chain of aquatic centers, many things like test kits i dont payfor, and if i do, i only pay a fraction of the retail price

[AaronT]

I am actually over doing it on the filtering side of things, as my tank was previously setup for marine,

The tank is a Juwel rio 180 so it has the standard Juwel internal filter, but i also have the largest size Ehiem Pro external canister filter, the sprat bar is set just under the water surface so that there is some, but not too much movement, i dont normally like the livebearers, but will probably invest in a few platies just so they break it up a little

i dont mind the surface film, but after a day or so, it starts to go green, if i dont remove some of it, then it get greener which is potentially restricting light to the plants below

But now that i know its not because i have made any major error i will simply keep it under control

it is about 2 weeks since setting up the CO2 and replanting the tank, and i have had great results and am going to start trimming the plants this week end, as some are taking over


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## abnormalsanon (Jun 6, 2006)

My nitrates were sky high, too, until I added CO2 and my plants took off. They went from 40-60ppm to 5ppm in a week. You'll need to add N soon enough!


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

Your surface film is cyanobacteria.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

John P. said:


> Your surface film is cyanobacteria.


If it is turning green as you say I'm in agreement with John. You don't want nitrates to bottom out in a planted tank. Cyanobacteria or blue green algae occurs in such conditions.

Remove as much as you can by hand. Then dose half of the recommended does of marycyn and dose about 1 ml per gallon of H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide). This will wipe it out initially, but dosing ample macros i.e. nitrates and phosphates will keep it from coming back in the future.


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## searley (Jun 19, 2006)

is the cyanobactira harmful?

only i dont want to make ant drastic changes to the tank at the moment as my Kribs have just hatched a batch of eggs, the fry have been free swimming for about 6 days

whilst this may not seem much, it is the first lot of fry i have evey had hatch, and it make me feel good, as something must be right, that never has been before, i would hate to lose them by doing something silly


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Can you lower your lighting levels then? If you don't want to dose macros then that's your best option. Good luck with raising the fry.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Who has ever had a blue green algae problem on the surface expecially with that high of nitrates. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algaefinder/12/blauw.jpg that stuff normally creates a very thick layer stretching from plants to the substrate and can be partially removed with your fingers and a net. I have only seen that type of algea in nitrogen deficient tanks, or in tanks with other very large problems, it sounds to me like an algae similar to GreenWater is growing in/on the surface scum. I started to see this happening in my tank before I bought a $10 filter attachment to remove surface film like you would in a marine tank. Its probably some of the best money I've put in the tank, no surface film and no measurable loss of CO2. You said you have an ehiem canister I'd really recomend looking into one of these. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=12703&N=2004+22777 The surface in my tank has never been clearer. Just my two cents.


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## searley (Jun 19, 2006)

davis.1841 said:


> Who has ever had a blue green algae problem on the surface expecially with that high of nitrates. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algaefinder/12/blauw.jpg that stuff normally creates a very thick layer stretching from plants to the substrate and can be partially removed with your fingers and a net. I have only seen that type of algea in nitrogen deficient tanks, or in tanks with other very large problems, it sounds to me like an algae similar to GreenWater is growing in/on the surface scum. I started to see this happening in my tank before I bought a $10 filter attachment to remove surface film like you would in a marine tank. Its probably some of the best money I've put in the tank, no surface film and no measurable loss of CO2. You said you have an ehiem canister I'd really recomend looking into one of these. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=12703&N=2004+22777 The surface in my tank has never been clearer. Just my two cents.


My initial thoughts were that a 'scum' / 'film' was being created by the plants, and green algae was starting to grow within that scum due to both the high lighting and nitrates

My next step is to reduce the lighting levels, and add a second timer to the lights, so that all the lights are on only for a limited period, hopefully this will prevent it turning green so rapidly,

i am really fussy about have exra equiptment within the tank, as i like the natural look, so i shall first try methods without the use of a surface skimmer

i have only been adding co2 for about 2 week, i am hoping that after a little time that things will settle down, and the general algae levels will drop, once a routine gets properly into place


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

usually surface film is a build up of organic wastes in the tank usually from the high fish load. its very common to see it in a planted tank because we dont like to aggitate the surface to much because the fear of loosing precious dissolved CO2 gas. The surface skimmer actually replaces your filters intake pipe. Just my suggestion.


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

I have lots of experience with Juwul-style tanks. Many of our stores had DAS (Dutch Aquaria Systems, a now-defunct, formerly Texas-based company) systems during my Petco days, and these are pretty much clones of your Juwul unit. It seems like you actually have several independent issues happening here and maybe some of my observations will be helpful.

Your surface film has nothing to do with nitrates. It is proteinatious waste and is the result of trapped organic material in the tank leaching back out into the water. The only way to eliminate it is to eliminate the source. As an example, I have a 2-week old tank with 0 ppm of NO3 and I'm getting surface film from the river-collected gravel and driftwood. Nothing to do but use paper towels to skim it off every so often. Yet, the plants are thriving and and fish are healthy, so it's only cosmetic.

I have seen others mention "surface scum" (whatever that is...) and perhaps they are refering to some sort of floating algae that fish might want to eat. If this is indeed an algae, then yes, nitrates WILL cause it to grow faster. 

Any of these Dutch-style tanks with the internal filter box have a tendency to run rich in terms of organic waste. They all have poor flow characteristics (in order to keep as much CO2 in the water as possible) and the filter media is often very restrictive, further slowing things down. This was the technology of the day, before there was as much understanding about cultivating plants as there is now. I will go on record as saying that every one of my stores with a DAS room required twice as much work to keep the tanks clean than in the more modern Marineland MARS-equipped rooms. This oily surface film you're describing was ALWAYS present in the DAS tanks, no matter how many water changes the staff did. It's just the poor flow characteristics of the tank plus the restrictive filter media trapping so much organic waste. 

Do you really have Cyanobacteria in your tank? If so, it will look like a dark blue-green creeping sheet of thin slime that lightly sways in the current and readily breaks up into smaller particles when you swish your hand across it. It was my experience that CB had a lot more to do with the water municipality than with anything else. Many stores used to get outbreaks during certain times of the year and I suspect it had to do with some dissolved minerals in the tap water that this stuff really liked, since it seemed to go ways on its own. My solution for the home aquarist would be to consider a small RO system, because then you're in total control. It won't hurt the fish but is ugly and can be controlled with antibiotics, as other said. I'm not convinced you have CB from your comments, by the way. 

Anyway, if the fish are fine and you're happy with the plant growth, all this stuff is cosmetic more than practical. I'm in the same boat with you on the surface film; it will just be the paper towel treatment and small, frequent water changes for I while, I guess. Good luck with yours.


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