# Sticky  glutaraldehyde instead of excel



## allen

Hey guys

Last week I have been using glutaraldehde in place of excel.I'm using a 2.8% solution.It's suppose to be about the same as excel but alot cheaper.I paid $16.95 a gallon.

I tried it in two tanks,a 10 gal. planted and a 60gal. planted.
It had a different effect in each tank on some of the same plants.Below I'll list each tank with the dose and effect I noticed.


60gal.,192 watts,11hours lights on,co2 injected,ferts daily,plants are red tiger lotus,rotalia indica,sword,ludwigia,anubias,hair grass and crypts,34 fish.

I dosed 30ml 9/23/6 after a water change then 10ml daily.
On 9/25/6 the angelfish spawned so it seems to have no effect on the fish.
9/27/6 the sword plant started growing fast.3-4" growth of new leaves daily.this plant has not grown much in the last 3 weeks.

It's been a week so far,water is clear,plants are growing fast and the little bit of algae I had is gone.

riccia is ok.

Now for the 10gal.,30 watts 8-10 hours,no co2,ferts daily,plants are sword,red tiger lotus,ludwigia,and bolbitis,tiger barb fry,cherry shrimp and alot of hair algae.

I dosed this tank heavier to see what would happen.
5ml daily.
9/23/6 dosed at 10:00am and by 7:00pm algae shows signs of dying.fish and shrimp are fine.

9/24/6 riccia is dying off.All the algae dead.fish are fine.water is a little cloudy.

9/25/6 water is clear.I have a few strands of moss in this tank.I think it's java moss.It is growing very fast.

9/30/6 moss has grown around 10" this week.this moss has been in here for 8 months without much growth.The bolbitis is a little darker green and the leaves have widened.Looks healthier then it ever has.

Other than the riccia dying and the water turning cloudy one day it seems to work well.

If I notice anything else I'll add it to this post.

Allen


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## Gomer

allen said:


> Other than the riccia dying...


You say that like it is a bad thing LOL. That would have been a MAJOR bonus while spending months eradicating it from my tanks. One spec and it keeps going LOL.


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## dennis

Allen,

That sounds good. Where did you get the *glutaraldehyde?*


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## egementt

I'm really shocked by this. I mean I know that glutaraldehyde is a strong disinfectant used in hospital etc. It's also toxic. I'm really shocked that it doesn't harm the aquatic life. It's probably about the doses. This really interests me. Thank you and I'll be waiting for your next posts.


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## dennis

I was reading some companies MSDS sheet for it and it mentioned something like 'toxic to aquatic life in at .1 to 1.0mg/l for the most sensative species'. They never mentioned the species but a guess is that the cloudy water some get with high doses of excel is due to a die off of bacteria. 

If I have done the math right (I probably have not ) then a 30 ml dose of 2% solution in 60 gallons is .26mg/l, pretty low on their "toxicity scale". That would lead me to belive that the most sensative organisms would be affected. Higher dosing woudl robably affect shrimp or snails, and lastly fish.

Using the same math, 5ml in 10 gallons is about .3mg/l. As I said though, I may not have converted to mg in a 2% solution correctly. I based my figuring on 100g/mol, or 10^5 mg/mol and assumed that one could figure a 2% mol solution in 1liter H2O. Please tell me if I am wrong.


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## bigstick120

I remember reading some where about a guy that dose glutaraldehyde to a 100 gallon tank every day, just a few drops, I dont know the concentration but he said his tank was crystal clear and completly algae free, and he did this for sometime. Maybe BS. I think it was somewhere on this site


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## hoppycalif

Sorry, in advance, but here is another testimonial: An argument settled at last
This was posted at APD last week.


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## dennis

Hoppy,

not sure if I follow how that relates, though it is amusing. If you are refering to using Excel as an "algae repellent or algaecide, that's not my intention. I really like excel but is very expensive in any quantity. If glutaraldehyde is an economical substitute, I'm all for it


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## sarahbobarah

Is this why I shouldn't breathe in the smell of excel? Makes me kinda woozy.


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## 5380

I thought about doing this last summer, but I decided against it thinking that they glutaraldehyde polymer would be much less pungent smelling than normal glutaraldehyde, usually aldehydes, amines, and sulfur containing chemicals stink. On a scale of 1-10 how bad is the smell? A pharmacist can order this for you, the product PDcare is available in the compounding catalogs. 

The wooziness is probably a direct result of the irritant on the cells your nose. There is a review article that goes into the effects it can have on medical personell that use the stuff all the time, and have high exposure.


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## hoppycalif

dennis said:


> Hoppy,
> 
> not sure if I follow how that relates, though it is amusing. If you are refering to using Excel as an "algae repellent or algaecide, that's not my intention. I really like excel but is very expensive in any quantity. If glutaraldehyde is an economical substitute, I'm all for it


I like Excel too, but when I hear of a tank that is always crystal clear without a bit of algae......well, it reminded me of George's testimonial to heating cables. Sorry, my laugh reflex gets out of synch sometimes.


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## MatPat

Nice work Allen! I look forward to hearing more and getting some of the gluteraldehyde once you reveal your source 

I do have a question though, is the Gluteraldehyde a 2.8% solution or are have you mixed it to obtain a 2.8% solution?


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## chiahead

I am very interested in this thread. Please post more info about how you got the Gluteraldehyde and its long term effects.


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## allen

Hi Matt

I did a search for glutaraldehyde and found a number of places that sell it online.The solution i ordered is 2.5%.There are other concentrations out there.The higher level of glutaraldehyde the more expensive it is.I chose this one to experiment with because of the price and it is diluted enough that I could dose straight from the bottle.

This is only the first week of using it so I not sure if there will be any problems with long term expose for the fish or plants.


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## epicfish

The MSDS at Seachem clearly states that the major chemical in Flourish is glutaraldehyde. I doubt there will be long term effects with the use of only a 2.5% solution of glutaraldehyde

I think the increased concentration of glutaraldehyde is responsible for killing of 'fragile' algae when people dose 2x-5x the regular dose to get rid of algae.


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## epicfish

dennis said:


> I was reading some companies MSDS sheet for it and it mentioned something like 'toxic to aquatic life in at .1 to 1.0mg/l for the most sensative species'. They never mentioned the species but a guess is that the cloudy water some get with high doses of excel is due to a die off of bacteria.
> 
> If I have done the math right (I probably have not ) then a 30 ml dose of 2% solution in 60 gallons is .26mg/l, pretty low on their "toxicity scale". That would lead me to belive that the most sensative organisms would be affected. Higher dosing woudl robably affect shrimp or snails, and lastly fish.
> 
> Using the same math, 5ml in 10 gallons is about .3mg/l. As I said though, I may not have converted to mg in a 2% solution correctly. I based my figuring on 100g/mol, or 10^5 mg/mol and assumed that one could figure a 2% mol solution in 1liter H2O. Please tell me if I am wrong.


Assuming the 2% is weight-by-volume: 2% w/v = 2 grams / 100 mL

30 mL in 60 gallons:
(2 grams / 100 mL) * 30 mL = 0.6 grams in 30 mL of the 2% solution.
If you add it to 60 gallons of water, 60 gallons * 3.78 L / gallon = 226.8 L
0.6 grams / 226.8 = 0.26 mg/L

5 mL in 10 gallons: (Still 0.26 mg/L since the solution volume and tank size are both 5 times smaller)
(2 grams / 100 mL) * 5 mL = 0.1 grams in 5 mL of the 2% solution.
Adding it to 10 gallons = 37.8 L
0.1 grams / 37.8 L = 0.26 mg/L


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## MatPat

allen said:


> I did a search for glutaraldehyde and found a number of places that sell it online.The solution i ordered is 2.5%.There are other concentrations out there.The higher level of glutaraldehyde the more expensive it is.I chose this one to experiment with because of the price and it is diluted enough that I could dose straight from the bottle.


Thanks for the info. If all goes well this should be another big money sver for the hobby.



allen said:


> This is only the first week of using it so I not sure if there will be any problems with long term expose for the fish or plants.


I don't think you are going to have any problems as long as you keep the dosing similar to Excel. Assuming Epicfish's calculations are correct I think it is funny that the Riccia in the 10g had issues while the riccia in the larger tank did not. Do you think this may be because the gluteraldehyde was diluted more in the large tank due to the tank's height? Did yo add the gluteraldehyde directly over the Riccia in the 10g?


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## dennis

epicfish said:


> Assuming the 2% is weight-by-volume: 2% w/v = 2 grams / 100 mL
> 
> 30 mL in 60 gallons:
> (2 grams / 100 mL) * 30 mL = 0.6 grams in 30 mL of the 2% solution.
> If you add it to 60 gallons of water, 60 gallons * 3.78 L / gallon = 226.8 L
> 0.6 grams / 226.8 = 0.26 mg/L
> 
> 5 mL in 10 gallons: (Still 0.26 mg/L since the solution volume and tank size are both 5 times smaller)
> (2 grams / 100 mL) * 5 mL = 0.1 grams in 5 mL of the 2% solution.
> Adding it to 10 gallons = 37.8 L
> 0.1 grams / 37.8 L = 0.26 mg/L


Cool, I was right; though I see I took a more complicated path to get there. As for the calculations for 10 gallons, I was assuming 8.5 gallons since the standard 10 gallon tank is only about 8.5.

Allan, could you share where you ordered it from since obviously you had a safe and easy transaction?


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## epicfish

Urea instead of KNO3, KPO4, and KSO4 (if a K supplement is needed), and trace with Plantex CSM+B.

This should be interesting. =)


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## epicfish

Urea - Science Kit and Boreal Laboratories seems pretty cheap, compared to a place like this: Urea, FCC

Seems like these stores carry pure urea crystals as well as prilled urea (pellet form). I don't know how pure the prilled form is, so let's assume I get the crystal form of urea.

2.5% urea = 2.5 grams / 100 mL water
mL water required = 500 grams * (100 mL water / 2.5 grams) = 20,000 mL = 20 liters

From the cheaper site, for $15.50 plus shipping, you can get 20 liters of 2.5% urea!! Heck, if the prilled form was water-soluble and pure, it'd only be $8.70 plus shipping for 20 liters.

Urea crystals, if stored in a dry environment, aren't prone to decomposition, while urea solution is. So of course you shouldn't mix up all 20 liters, maybe a couple hundred mLs at a time.


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## allen

MatPat said:


> Assuming Epicfish's calculations are correct I think it is funny that the Riccia in the 10g had issues while the riccia in the larger tank did not. Do you think this may be because the gluteraldehyde was diluted more in the large tank due to the tank's height? Did yo add the gluteraldehyde directly over the Riccia in the 10g?


I added the glutaraldehyde into the flow from the filter and the riccia was on the other end of the tank.It may be the level was to high.I'll move some riccia back into this tank and see.


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## MatPat

Did you move any Riccia back into the tank yet? If so, how is it doing?


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## allen

All the riccia is dead in the 60g also.It took longer,must be the lower dose.


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## MatPat

I guess you have found that Riccia doesn't like gluteraldehyde. I don't think I have ever overdosed a tank with Excel to see if it has the same effect on the Riccia. Looks like you may need to experiemtn with some Excel in the tanks for a few days 

Gluteraldehyde may be a good idea for those looking to eradicate Riccia from their tanks assuming it does no harm to any of the other plants in your tank!


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## dennis

Is this the kind you are using? I can only seem to find gluteraldehyde solutions that say 28 day or 14 day formula. I wonder if that refers to the shelf life or to the reuseability. Many of the descriptions from different suppliers say reusable for the number of days. I just want to make sure I am not getting the wrong stuff.

I have also seen some listed as "activated". Does that make any difference?

Allan, what brand do you have? You can even PM me if you want.


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## dennis

I am slowly answering my own questions...

Cidex activated Dialdehyde solution info can be found here:
http://www.safety.vanderbilt.edu/pdf/hcs_msds/Cidexactivated_09_05.pdf#search="Cidex"

From what I can tell, the activated means it has a higher pH, probably for better microbe killing. I don't know. The shelf life appears to be "chemically stable" under proper storage, ie 59-86degrees F. This product contains 97.45% water and 2.55% gluteraldehyde by weight.

I wonder if it makes a difference to our purposes if it is activated or if the day use applies to use or to re-using it stuff in a medical setting?

Now to see about pricing/shipping.


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## allen

Matt,do you have any riccia i could have to try with the excel.All of mine is wiped out.

Dennis,that is not the same brand but the discription is the same(28 day glutaraldehyde,activated diadehyde).I beleive the 28 or 14 day formula refers to how long the solution is good for after you mix in the activator that comes with it.That is for sterilization of medical equipment.What I did was not add the activator and dose the glutaraldehyde straight from the gallon jug.


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## MatPat

I think I have some mini Riccia still, I will check and let you know later on. Do you want me to mail it to you or wait until the Auction?


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## epicfish

Glutaraldehyde - The Highest Purity

25% solution
0-18ºC 16220 Box 10x10ml ampoules 21.00

You can do a 1:9 dilution (10 mL glutaraldehyde to 90 mL of water) to give you 100 mL of 2.5% solution per ampule. That's 1 liter of glutaraldehyde for $21 + shipping. Although some other places might sell bulk for less (not sure, haven't checked) this type of packaged glutaraldehyde is preferable since each ampule is packed in inert nitrogen so there's no breakdown or adverse reactions since it's not exposed to air/oxygen. You can mix up 100 mL batches and dose them as needed so you won't waste much of it.

Heck, if you have larger tanks...
0-18ºC 16521 50% Solution 4x1 liter 67.00

1 liter solution to 19 liters of water will give 20 liters of a 2.5% solution. This is 4x1liters of glutaraldehyde, so you'll get 80 liters. For $67 + shipping. Less than a buck per gallon!

I'm not sure why the riccia is dying. Are you dosing straight into the tank? I suspect that if the entire bunch of riccia is being hit with too concentrated a solution of glutaraldehyde, the fine plantlets won't be able to recover & will die slowly. Try to add the glutaraldehyde in a very diluted form.

Allen, you said the riccia died slower in the 60 gallon tank. I think it's because as you added the glutaraldehyde, it was more easily diluted in the 60 gallons before it hit the riccia as opposed to the 10 gallon tank.

Maybe when you do a WC next time, add the dosage into a bucket of water instead of dosing straight into the tank. Or you can try adding a bit at a time, throughout the entire length of the tank and avoiding the patches of riccia?

I'm looking forward to the remainder if your experiments!


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## epicfish

Google cache. I can't find the original thread. Or rather, haven't looked for it.

PlantedFanatics.com :: View topic - Effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA

Conclusion

The effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA were documented with images and texts. It shows that Seachem Flourish Excel caused the BBA to turned red within 24 hours. The BBA gradually turned white over 120 Hours and disintegrate slowly thereafter.The experiment shows that Seachem Flourish Excel has successfully eliminated BBA. We would advise that Seachem Flourish Excel should not be use as a permanent way of removing BBA, as solving the root of the problem is the key to prevent future outbreak. We realised that Flourish Excel should not be used in large amount on *mosses, riccia, and fissidens. It may cause them to turn brown or even kill them.*

So MatPat, high doses of Excel *will* kill riccia. =)


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## epicfish

After looking in the CRC handbook for possible polycyclo compounds, I'm guessing the side-chains in the polycycloglutaracetal (active compound) of Excel seems to make it less toxic. Not sure if the cyclo side chains actually allow for more carbon molecules per molecule of the polycyclo compound, but it makes the compound less toxic and/or prolongs the shelf-life.


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## dennis

Epicfish, nice find there. I really am no good at internet searches.

Their boilogical grade looks more economical at 450ml 25% for $15. The equals 4.5 liters at 2.5% dilution. Since the other gluteraldehyde they ofer is pure for EM fixative, I would imagine that the steralization stuff marketed for hospitals/doctors is biological grade. Maybe not though.

With shipping, probably 6-8 buck your talking about $5 a liter. 'Course, for $1.50 more you can get 450ml of 50% solution, or 9 liters of 2.5%, or $2.66 a liter. Excel is $38 plus shipping for 4 liters. IF you want smaller amounts of Excel, it is way more expensive....$7.50 for 500ml plus shipping.


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## dennis

epicfish said:


> After looking in the CRC handbook for possible polycyclo compounds, I'm guessing the side-chains in the polycycloglutaracetal (active compound) of Excel seems to make it less toxic. Not sure if the cyclo side chains actually allow for more carbon molecules per molecule of the polycyclo compound, but it makes the compound less toxic and/or prolongs the shelf-life.


OCHCH2CH2CH2CHO
I would think so, logically. It would seem that activation would kick off an H or OH, possibly then forming longer chains through a C=C double bond. This should make it more stable and less toxic, plus more alkaline?

Yes, no?


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## allen

MatPat said:


> I think I have some mini Riccia still, I will check and let you know later on. Do you want me to mail it to you or wait until the Auction?


When is the auction?The weekend of the 14th is the only time I can't make it.If it is that weekend maybe you could mail it to me.LMK.


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## chiahead

epicfish said:


> Google cache. I can't find the original thread. Or rather, haven't looked for it.
> 
> PlantedFanatics.com :: View topic - Effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> The effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA were documented with images and texts. It shows that Seachem Flourish Excel caused the BBA to turned red within 24 hours. The BBA gradually turned white over 120 Hours and disintegrate slowly thereafter.The experiment shows that Seachem Flourish Excel has successfully eliminated BBA. We would advise that Seachem Flourish Excel should not be use as a permanent way of removing BBA, as solving the root of the problem is the key to prevent future outbreak. We realised that Flourish Excel should not be used in large amount on *mosses, riccia, and fissidens. It may cause them to turn brown or even kill them.*
> 
> So MatPat, high doses of Excel *will* kill riccia. =)


I concur and have done this personally. It will even kill shrimp and snails if dosed too high for too long.


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## MrSanders

hey allen, I have a TON of riccia growing wild in a little tub that i used to have daphina in.... i would be more than willing to donate a big protion for you to expierment with on this one, for the price of shipping, or I will just send it regular mail for free if you think it will make it. Send me a PM if your intrested


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## dennis

If anyone cares, an update... I ordered the 450ml of 25% biological grade gluteraldehyde from the link epicfish posted. The company is Electron Microscopy Sciences. Order took about 5 minutes and they were very friendly. Order ships Monday so I will update whenI get it and the final price with shipping.


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## spcyamada

*Cool*

I've subscribed to this thread. If this does indeed turn out to be an alternative to Excel, that would be great. Please post results!


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## allen

Update

When I first started with the glutaraldehyde it seemed to kill all the riccia.But I just found a few small 1/2" pieces in the 10g.
MrSanders,thanks for the offer.

Also the bolbitis has grown 1" or 2 and the leaves are wider.this plant has done nothing in the last 6-8months.


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## Gomer

time to find out exactly what is in Excel. I have a big bottle of it and when I get free time, I'll have to do LC-MS, organic phase GC-MS and maybe even ESI-MS.


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## epicfish

Tony, I'd be interested in helping you figure out what's in it. I might grab a bottle sometime and run GC-FTIR-MS on it...unless you beat me to it. =P


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## dennis

Show-offs

Well that online source really paid off, so to speak. I ordered the 450ml of 25% biological grade gluteraldehyde on Friday around 4:30. It cam today, Wednesday, before noon. The total with shipping was 21.95, so about $6 shipping. That will equal 4.5 liters of 2.5% solution, at $4.88 a liter. If I dose 7ml a day this will last me almost 2 years Not bad.

Thanks for pointing out this source!!!!

Since I have riccia as a major part of my scape, I think I will start around .1mg/l and see what the results are like. For my application, my 29 gallon aquarium (actually 25 gallons) is equal to 94.5L. Making a 2.5% solution by adding 10ml 25% gluteraldehyde to 90ml H20 and dosing 5ml of that solution will give me .13mg/l in my tank. This is convenient since I have a used 100ml Flourish Excel bottle laying around. Also useful since I can do a half dose to my 15 gallon for the same concentration.

I'll post when I am able to see results, either good or bad.


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## Bert H

Looking forward to your progress reports, Dennis. :thumbsup:


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## epicfish

Awesome. Hope the riccia does well. =) I'll be checking this thread often!

Take before and after pictures, especially of the riccia. Then we can really judge the growth rate when using glutaraldehyde.


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## jrings

any new results?


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## dennis

epicfish said:


> Assuming the 2% is weight-by-volume: 2% w/v = 2 grams / 100 mL
> 
> 30 mL in 60 gallons:
> (2 grams / 100 mL) * 30 mL = 0.6 grams in 30 mL of the 2% solution.
> If you add it to 60 gallons of water, 60 gallons * 3.78 L / gallon = 226.8 L
> 0.6 grams / 226.8 = 0.26 mg/L


Ummm, why am I figuring this wrong?

(2g/100ml)*30ml = 0.6grams in 30 ml at 2%

0.6g/226.8L= 0.002646 g/L

multiply that by 1000mg/1 gram= 2.65mg/l

Why were you getting 0.26mg/l? Where am I doing that wrong?

Another example:
2.5% solution (what i have) is 2.5gram/100ml, or 25000mg/l.

1ml of that solution is 25mg/ml. Adding 25mg to my aquarium, ~100L, is .25mg/l for my aquarium? Is that math correct?


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## epicfish

2.6mg/L, I stand corrected. Thanks. =)

I multiplied by 100, not 1000.


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## dennis

I did not mean to "correct" you but it was throwing me for a loop. Math and chemistry are not my best subjects so I did not realize how much a 15ml dose adds My bad. Good news is that tetras, nerites and pygmy cories can take 3.75ppm gluteraldehyde. Riccia is not to happy and BBA may be a bit grumpy but the plants and fauna are fine.


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## MatPat

dennis said:


> Math and chemistry are not my best subjects so I did not realize how much a 15ml dose adds


You seem to be doing fine with the math Dennis  Grumpy BBA is good and I am curious as to how your Riccia does. Allen said his was starting to come back but he hasn't posted in a while to give us an update


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## epicfish

dennis said:


> I did not mean to "correct" you but it was throwing me for a loop. Math and chemistry are not my best subjects so I did not realize how much a 15ml dose adds My bad. Good news is that tetras, nerites and pygmy cories can take 3.75ppm gluteraldehyde. Riccia is not to happy and BBA may be a bit grumpy but the plants and fauna are fine.


How are you adding the glutaraldehyde to the tank? Maybe if you had enough riccia, you could do a few experiments.

Have thse following groups of riccia:
1) Free-floating
2) Tied to a rock closest to the area where you dose your glutaraldehyde
3) 6 inches away from rock #2
4) 6 inches away from rock #3...and so on so forth.

This way, we can see if the initial "shocking" concentration of glutaraldehyde has anything to do with its death, or if the overall concentration of ~3.75ppm is enough to do it in. If we can figure out what's actually killing it, we might be able to find a good way to dose the glutaraldehyde. ie: Maybe mixing it with new water during a WC and adding it that way, or adding it as the water flows in from a python or something similar.


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## allen

Hey guys,

Sorry for not posting sooner.
My riccia has come back and is doing fine.After that first dose i thought it was dead.The red tiger lotus,ludwigia,bolbitis and sword are all growing with the best growth in the lotus and bolbitus.

The tiger barbs have been moved and now there are around 75 swordtail fry in the 10g.The fry are fine but the last of the shrimp has died.

There has not been any sign of algae in this tank since I started using glutaraldehyde.

I stopped using it in the 60g.It is co2 injected and I wanted to see if there was any ill effects using the glutaraldehyde with co2.Everything was fine except for the riccia to start with but it came back also.

I'm happy with the results.plants respond well and I save a few bucks over excel.Good luck to all that try this and please post any problems you might have.

Allen


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## dennis

epicfish said:


> How are you adding the glutaraldehyde to the tank? Maybe if you had enough riccia, you could do a few experiments.
> 
> Have thse following groups of riccia:
> 1) Free-floating
> 2) Tied to a rock closest to the area where you dose your glutaraldehyde
> 3) 6 inches away from rock #2
> 4) 6 inches away from rock #3...and so on so forth.
> 
> This way, we can see if the initial "shocking" concentration of glutaraldehyde has anything to do with its death, or if the overall concentration of ~3.75ppm is enough to do it in. If we can figure out what's actually killing it, we might be able to find a good way to dose the glutaraldehyde. ie: Maybe mixing it with new water during a WC and adding it that way, or adding it as the water flows in from a python or something similar.


That could be a bit hard to control in a normal tank, but in my case I have 3 groups of riccia rocks. Group front left, group front right, group in the middle. Only the middle grouping was effected by the glut application and I assume this is due to eigher the highe rlight this group gets, or the fact that I apply the glut in the front right corner, so maybe that is where it settles first.

What is interesting is that a 15ml dose (3.75mg/l) did not really knock out the BBA or all the riccia. Only some riccia was affected and the only BBA hurt seems to be what I directly applied the D'cel to with a syringe at the last WC. I have not changed the CO2 levels though 2 weeks ago I increased the dosing of all my other nutrients. In the past larger doses of Excel would make the BBA turn pink, in this case, only direct application seems to do that. It does seem though that there is no new algae forming, which seems like a promising sign since I did not change the CO2 levels. I added a few Amano's a couple days ago, so we'll see if they pick at any possibly unknown weakened algae.

Is my math right now-> 15ml of a 2.5% solution in 95L=3.75ppm?


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## epicfish

Dennis,

That's what I was thinking. Maybe if the glutaraldehyde gets mixed up a little more before it's added to the tank, it wouldn't kill off the riccia. What if you added it close to the outflow of your filter, or close to any powerheads you might have?

ppm = mg/litres of water.
15 mL * 2.5 grams / 100mL = 0.375 grams = 375 miligrams.
ppm = 375 miligrams/97 liters = 3.87ppm.

I wonder how many ppm of glutaraldehyde-equivalent is in Excel.


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## dennis

I do add it basically into the flow from the filter. What is interesting is that the riccia at the far end should get the most concentrated amount of glut but is the stuff in the midle that is affected. So, either its a result of the higher light in the middle or the gluteraldehyde settles faster through the water than it mixes initially.

I don't think we'll ever find out how much is in excel, and understandably so.


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## epicfish

dennis said:


> I do add it basically into the flow from the filter. What is interesting is that the riccia at the far end should get the most concentrated amount of glut but is the stuff in the midle that is affected. So, either its a result of the higher light in the middle or the gluteraldehyde settles faster through the water than it mixes initially.
> 
> I don't think we'll ever find out how much is in excel, and understandably so.


If we can atomic spectra on Excel, we might be able to figure out what it is....after that, I'm sure we'll be able to do something. 

I wonder if this counts as violation of any intellectual property laws. Hm.


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## Raul-7

According to Seachem they use a different isomer of glutaraldehyde than the common form used in hospitals.


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## epicfish

Raul-7 said:


> According to Seachem they use a different isomer of glutaraldehyde than the common form used in hospitals.


Yep. I think it was mentioned somehwere in this thread already. It's a polycycloglutaracetal. Nothing more than a few cyclic rings added on to your conventional glutaraldehyde. I was just wondering if "reverse engineering" this structure would be in the legal realm.


----------



## jude_uc

After ordering the 50% biological grade stuff from the website epicfish and dennis mentioned, I saw that one of the components from the MSDS is 0.5% methanol. This is too small an amount to cause a problem, right? Also, did anyone have a problem in diluting it? Is it noxious at all?

-Adam


----------



## dennis

Should not pose any issues.


----------



## jude_uc

Thanks, good to know. Reading an MSDS always gives me the willies. I almost started to regret the decision of buying some..

-Adam


----------



## Zapins

Soo.... Excel is just modified to make it less toxic? 

Has it been modified in any way to make it more effective at giving CO2 to plants than glutaraldehyde?

Also, does anyone know if Excel is pure? Or is it laced w/ other chemicals? 

I was thinking about running some lab tests on it to see how it is put together in the hopes of gaining an idea of how to make it, but I need a pure sample in order to run the tests.


----------



## jude_uc

Dennis and others who are experimenting? How often are you adding your mixture? Have you noticed any problems? Are the shrimp doing fine with levels you're dosing? Thanks!

-Adam


----------



## dennis

I am adding 10ml of 2.5% solution to a 29 gallon aquarium every day. If I am doing the math correct, and I am pretty sure of it now, that equals 2.5mg/l added daily. I have Amano shrimp, nerite snails and dwarf cories- all seem fine. In the past, overdosing Excel generally killed Amanos and Nerites so I take that as an Ok sign. The long term effects of this on the fauna is unknown though and I am beginning to wonder how I am affecting them in the end.

Algae is definately receeding. Concentrations that I have described are only detrimental to the algae with direct application though I am noticing that no more algae is returning and CO2 levels have remained the same. However, I increased the dosing of every other nutrient so that may play a part also.


----------



## epicfish

Zapins said:


> Soo.... Excel is just modified to make it less toxic?
> 
> Has it been modified in any way to make it more effective at giving CO2 to plants than glutaraldehyde?
> 
> Also, does anyone know if Excel is pure? Or is it laced w/ other chemicals?
> 
> I was thinking about running some lab tests on it to see how it is put together in the hopes of gaining an idea of how to make it, but I need a pure sample in order to run the tests.


No, it's not pure, it's combined with "ameliorating" chemicals.

You can try to distill it and then run GC-MS or whatever you want on the separate fractions that are collected.


----------



## AndyT.

Okay, I don't think I'm dumb, but I got lost...



Gomer said:


> time to find out exactly what is in Excel. I have a big bottle of it and when I get free time, I'll have to do LC-MS, organic phase GC-MS and maybe even ESI-MS.





epicfish said:


> Tony, I'd be interested in helping you figure out what's in it. I might grab a bottle sometime and run GC-FTIR-MS on it...unless you beat me to it. =P





epicfish said:


> You can try to distill it and then run GC-MS or whatever you want on the separate fractions that are collected.


Here is what I think you guys are talking about:
MS is Mass Spectrometry, not Multiple Sclerosis.

All the others, LC, GC, ESI are different methods of performing mass spectrometry?

Now I know that all of you are referring to possibly using equipment you have access to to perform this analysis, so the answer to my next question may be simply that you don't have access to this type of equipment but:

Wouldn't ion chromatography be better for determining what precisely is in Excel and the proportions in which it occurs?  I'm aware that it is much more complex than simply tossing some Excel in the IC and waiting for it to spit out an analysis, but I thought that was what IC specialized in doing.


----------



## epicfish

I hadn't given any consideration to the ameliorating chemicals. Without a pure sample of the main ingredient of Excel, any of these methods would give spectrums that would be impossible to figure out.

IC would work to see the functional groups and they're relative abundancies, you're right. MS would give common m/z groups which will lead to a better understanding of the actual structure of the compound. NMR would give even more information about the proximities of the carbons and functional groups to each other.

Even if we did manage to get "pure" Excel, figuring out the structure wouldn't be such a simple task given our limited resources to this equipment.


----------



## gnatster

Need to remind you folks this stuff can be dangerous to play around with. Use at your own risk.


----------



## allen

Hi everyone

I haven't posted anything here for awhlie because I've been playing around with the glut.

I've been adjusting the doses and found that 1ml to 1 gallon of water at a water change does not seem to hurt the fish,plants or bio filter along with a 1:2 daily dose.This will slowly kill the algae.
For a more severe algae problem I can add 1:1 three days after the 1:1 at water change.
A 1:1 daily dose seems to stress the fish.Plants are fine but it will destroy the bio along with the algae.
A 1.5:1 will kill the fish.
Once the algae is gone I reduced it to 1:5.The plants are growing as fast as they are in the tank with co2.
This is what has happened in my tanks and it might be different for your setup.

I haven't tried a dip for new plants yet but it might be a way to kill the algae and those #%@* snails & eggs before placing them in the tank.
Eric,I should've tried this with that red rubin I got from you.Oh well,the loaches are happy,their bellies are full.

Has anyone else tried this stuff?What kind of effects has it had on your plants?I'm sure others would like to here about it.

As with all chemicals please use with caution and if you do a search it's easy to find the MSDS for glutaraldehyde.


----------



## MatPat

Thanks for the update Allen!


----------



## chiahead

What I would really like to know is how to buy some of this stuff.


----------



## allen

I bought mine here Protech Medical Imaging Supplies & Equipment


----------



## chiahead

OK I think I messed up on my diluting amounts. I bought the 25% solution bottle, 450ml volume. I added 100ml of glut and 400ml of H2o in my bottle. I am using left over ADA dosing bottles, which should be 1ml per pump...correct? So here is what I dosed after reading Allen's posts(my own fault not mixing my bottles correctly).

20 gallon long-10 pumps=10ml
24 gallon cube-12 pumps=12ml
ADA 90p(46 gallon)-23 pumps=23ml

Can some math experts please figure how much I actually added and what sort of solution I made in these bottles? I need to know if I need to stay up doing emergency water changes? Thanks!


----------



## dennis

Chia,

100ml + 400ml is 500ml. 100/500= 0.20 0.2x25%(original concentration)=5% solution of glut.

5% is that same as saying 5ml/100ml H20. Since gluteraldehyde is ~ the same weight (density) as water you can safely assume 5% is the same as 5g/100ml, or 50mg/ml

So, providing I have done the math right (not my strongest field), and assuming that a 20gallon is really 20gallons (75liters). Dosing 10ml of your solution is: 10ml x 50mg= 500mg/75l= 6.67mg/l!

For more on the math see post 46, 47, 52 & 53 of this thread. That's a pretty high dose! I experienced a high die-off of _Riccia_ at half that. The MSDS of gluteraldehyde lists toxic levels as 1mg/l for some inverts, though what those inverts are remains a mystery.

In my experience, the DIY version seems to have some added benefit but its not quite as good as Excel. I read receintly what the concentration of Excel was, though I don't remember now. Maybe 2-2.5%, IIRC. So ml per ml, DIY vs. Excel, your concentration is about double.

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## chiahead

Well I dont know how it will turn out but the fish seem all ok. I guess I will just have to see in the morning.


----------



## chiahead

Well, everything seems to be fine. Nothing died from it and all the pants are undamaged. All the nerite snials are ok too. I think I will hold off on dosing for a couple of days just to make sure. When I resume I was thinking 1ml per 5 gallon should not be excessive???


----------



## epicfish

allen said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I haven't posted anything here for awhlie because I've been playing around with the glut.
> 
> I've been adjusting the doses and found that 1ml to 1 gallon of water at a water change does not seem to hurt the fish,plants or bio filter along with a 1:2 daily dose.This will slowly kill the algae.
> For a more severe algae problem I can add 1:1 three days after the 1:1 at water change.
> A 1:1 daily dose seems to stress the fish.Plants are fine but it will destroy the bio along with the algae.
> A 1.5:1 will kill the fish.
> Once the algae is gone I reduced it to 1:5.The plants are growing as fast as they are in the tank with co2.
> This is what has happened in my tanks and it might be different for your setup.
> 
> I haven't tried a dip for new plants yet but it might be a way to kill the algae and those #%@* snails & eggs before placing them in the tank.
> Eric,I should've tried this with that red rubin I got from you.Oh well,the loaches are happy,their bellies are full.
> 
> Has anyone else tried this stuff?What kind of effects has it had on your plants?I'm sure others would like to here about it.
> 
> As with all chemicals please use with caution and if you do a search it's easy to find the MSDS for glutaraldehyde.


Af far as snails go, I'd try a concentrated salt water bath instead of glutaraldehyde. But if you're worried about both algae and snails, then a dip in glutaraldehyde will probably get rid of both if the problem isn't too severe.


----------



## Troy McClure

If a glute dip will kill snails/eggs and algae before placing the plants into an aquarium, that alone is reason enough to buy this stuff. What kind of concentration do you think would be effective? 2:1?


----------



## allen

Eric
Since I posted that,most of the snail eggs I'm finding are on the glass.There are some on the red rubin but I don't want to take it out.That plant is like a snail magnet.
If you have a small plant with alot of eggs on it could you bring it to the meeting and I'll setup a 10g to try this.I'll use all new substrate,filter and heater so no snails from anywhere else.


----------



## Troy McClure

I'm sure I could find something to test. What kind of ratio do you think will work for a dip?


----------



## faiwinnie

is that work as the excel or not ?


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

So I'm getting ready to try this myself.

I bought 1L of MetriCide Plus 30 from a local hospital supply store (along with some hypodermics and tips to accurately measure out small batches and dose). It comes as a 1L bottle with water, some dye, surfacant, and scent. There's a side bottle with 35.8g of glutaraldehyde that you're supposed to pour into the bottle and shake to reduce down to 3.4%. Since Glutaraldehyde has a density of 1.06 g/ml I'm going to simply add 1ml to 39ml water to make a 40ml 2.5% solution. From then on a .1ml/gallon dose is a normal excel dose giving .66 PPM. 
I have a 120 gallon aquarium with several inches of substrate, so say 100 gallons. So lesse, 20ml/day 2.5% is a double dose that should kill algae, right?

What I think happens once I add it to the water is that over time it starts to self polymerize reducing its biocidal effects, but it retains the ability to give carbon to plants. I'm not going to worry about it "deactivating" over time, but I'll still make fresh solution every few weeks just because. The stuff in excel is already polymerized which is why its probably less biocidal than straight glutaraldehyde. 

I just want to find out mostly at what concs will this stuff affect fissidens and pelia (since moloselenium terenum is a liverwort like riccia I assume its sensitivity is ~= to riccia's). Does anyone have any information about what ok concentrations are for these?

I'm trying to get rid of some bloody spirogea algae that's been taking over my aquarium. The plants have all the other algae types under control.


----------



## LSD25

Any new results on this one? Im curious if anybody actually proceeded to do a chemical analysis, such as GC, LC or so...


----------



## Zapins

I have access to H`NMR, C`NMR, GC-MS, and a host of other useful tests. If someone can figure out how to distill the chemical out (making sure it is stable enough for testing) then I would be happy to run the tests.

I am currently doing a study on the effects of excel on two genra of algae Chlamydomonas and Scenedemus to determine what concentration (0.5x,1x,2x,3x) has on them. And to figure out if low dosages can actually benefit algal growth or just harm it like previously recorded.

If anyone has any info that might be helpful, please post it!


----------



## LSD25

Hi Zapnis,

I got some info from a safety data sheet on glutaraldehyde
General

Synonyms: glutaraldehyde, glutardialdehyde, 1,3-diformylpropane, glutaral, 1,5-pentanedial, 1,5-pentanedione, cidex, sonacide
Molecular formula: C5H8O2
CAS No: 111-30-8
EINECS No: 203-856-5 

Physical data

Appearance: colourless or light yellow liquid with a pungent odour
Melting point: -6 C
Boiling point: 101 C
Vapour density: 1.05 (air = 1)
Vapour pressure: 15 mm Hg at 20 C
Density (g cm-3): 1.106
Flash point:
Explosion limits:
Autoignition temperature:
Water solubility: miscible

You see the boiling point - it looks messy as it is almost the same one as water. You cant distill it out of an aqueous solution.

Cheers,
Marc


----------



## doctordun

The only thing I can find locally is a product called Metracide 28 which says it is buffered? Number one, is "buffered" ok and the big Number Two, the will only sell it in case quanties.

I would like to find a good source. I have 4 liters of Excel from Big Al's Online, but would like to get something less expensive for the future.


----------



## doctordun

I have read in this thread that Excel has a concentration of glutaraldehyde of 2.5%. Is this a documented fact or something that someone here on this forum has figured out?


----------



## doctordun

:Cry:Holy Cow.....shipping is way high. I innocently ordered 1 liter of the 50% solution at 19.50. Web site said it would ship UPS ground and exact charges would be billed.
Well I got billed $27.33 for shipping. When I could get my breath, I called them. Evidently, in the summer it is their practice to ship overnight in ice. No small print to be found. They apologized but the deed was done. Just a word to the wise. They said shelf life was 2 years as long as it didn't get too hot.



epicfish said:


> Glutaraldehyde - The Highest Purity
> 
> 25% solution
> 0-18ºC 16220 Box 10x10ml ampoules 21.00
> 
> You can do a 1:9 dilution (10 mL glutaraldehyde to 90 mL of water) to give you 100 mL of 2.5% solution per ampule. That's 1 liter of glutaraldehyde for $21 + shipping. Although some other places might sell bulk for less (not sure, haven't checked) this type of packaged glutaraldehyde is preferable since each ampule is packed in inert nitrogen so there's no breakdown or adverse reactions since it's not exposed to air/oxygen. You can mix up 100 mL batches and dose them as needed so you won't waste much of it.
> 
> Heck, if you have larger tanks...
> 0-18ºC 16521 50% Solution 4x1 liter 67.00
> 
> 1 liter solution to 19 liters of water will give 20 liters of a 2.5% solution. This is 4x1liters of glutaraldehyde, so you'll get 80 liters. For $67 + shipping. Less than a buck per gallon!
> 
> I'm not sure why the riccia is dying. Are you dosing straight into the tank? I suspect that if the entire bunch of riccia is being hit with too concentrated a solution of glutaraldehyde, the fine plantlets won't be able to recover & will die slowly. Try to add the glutaraldehyde in a very diluted form.
> 
> Allen, you said the riccia died slower in the 60 gallon tank. I think it's because as you added the glutaraldehyde, it was more easily diluted in the 60 gallons before it hit the riccia as opposed to the 10 gallon tank.
> 
> Maybe when you do a WC next time, add the dosage into a bucket of water instead of dosing straight into the tank. Or you can try adding a bit at a time, throughout the entire length of the tank and avoiding the patches of riccia?
> 
> I'm looking forward to the remainder if your experiments!


----------



## liguhy

I'm about to buy some glutaraldehyde, but I have a few questions:

First I'm gonna buy it from here:
http://protech-imaging.com/clean.php

Secondly, I'm reading that we don't have to worry about it loosing effectivness for our carbon source purpose (is what the suppliers told you about keeping it from getting too hot for the cleaning effectiveness or for keeping the glutaraldehyde from becoming inactive, which would be bad for us). In fact, someone noticed it polymerized when mixed with water, was less biocidal, and therefore concluded Excel must already be polymerized. If getting it polymerized makes it less biocidal but just as effective of a carbon source, isn't that another reason against worrying about expiration, even when mixed?

Also, do I buy the 14-day "Metricide" or the 28-day "Metricide 28." If it expiration isn't an issue when using it as a carbon source, I assume both options are the same for us? Is the price difference small enough that it doesn't even matter? After reading the MSDS sheets the straight "Metricide" is only water and glutaraldehyde, while "Metricide 28" has some Sodium Nitrate in there is as well (but "in the activator" so I assume it isn't in the glutaraldehyde/water solution and can be ignored?)

Lastly, I have a 20 gallon H tank with very little plants (a water little bulb and java fern), but I plan on getting more. What would be an appropriate amount to dose? I'd like to dose in the most diluted form practical to prevent shocking fish/plants.


----------



## allen

bump


----------



## bonklers

dennis, allen and everyone else who're using DIY excel. How are things going now? Still algae free aquarium?


----------



## Freemann

I have used glutaraldehyde mixed with water infrequently for BBA.
It works fine and BBA starts dying 4-5 days after the initial application.
I dilute 2.5% of 25% percent strength glutaraldehyde in water.
I have seen no ill effects to inverts or mosses up to now.


----------



## Squawkbert

:: subscribes to thread ::

Some of you guys have some nice toys at your disposal! All I commonly have is a UV HPLC & UV/Vis spec.

Note - Glutaraldehyde solutions containing surfactants such as *CIDEX PLUS* 28 Day Solution *...*

So I'd favor diluting a conc. sollution w/o surfactants etc. just to be safe (though at the concentrations & addition rates we're generally talking about, I doubt they'd hurt anything - still, who needs more variables?).

Please keep the updates coming.


----------



## Zapins

Is CIDEX usable? I just got some and want to try it in the tank.


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

I used Cidex successfully. One container is the GA solution, and another container is an alkaline "activator" solution. 
make sure you figure out which is which (hint, the GA smells like green apples).

Price wise its even cheaper though to buy 50% GA from a chemical supplier (and more pure too).


----------



## Noddy65

Some trials on using gluteraldehyde. Seems to work a treat.

http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php?t=2407&page=5

Mike


----------



## taekwondodo

Is anyone using the Metricide product, and if so, how (dosing rate, dilution rate (with what, etc...)) - 

I've read the thread a couple of times and am not sure how many people are using this successfully (and how they are doing it)...

a "DIY" guide to glutaraldehyde might be in order...

Thanks,

- Jeff


----------



## Squawkbert

I guess you're shooting for 2-2.5ppm glutaraldehyde.

That's 2-2.5mg/L, so figure out how many L of tank water you have, multiply by 2 (for 2ppm), divide by the percentage glutaraldehyde in your solution and that's how many mL you would want to add. From the thread referenced above (I joined, had a look), there's info that the glutaraldehyde has a pretty short half life - it's basically gone in ~24 hours, but you don't want to dose it daily as you might impede decomposition of the algae you're killing off, so the consensus there seems to be ~2ppm, every other day for control of most types of algae (GDA, thread being slowest to respond).

I just got a 1/2L of Excel, so I guess I have until that's gone to find a good source for a glutaraldehyde solution w/o surfactants & scents added.


----------



## cs_gardener

I bought my glutaraldehyde from http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx

I bought the 50% 450 mL biological grade for $18.00 and shipping was only around $6, so it's very reasonably priced and ends up being a fraction of the cost of Excel. They packed it extremely well and I received it in just over a week from the time I placed my order. I'll definitely buy from them again when I finally finish the original bottle.


----------



## FishandTurtleJunkie

I purchased Metricide 28 from here: http://www.buyemp.com/category/Sterilizing-Solutions.html

$24 shipped for one gallon of the 2.5% solution.

I was wondering if anyone knew if the Activator had to be added in order for the glut to work, or if you can add it without?


----------



## ohiodave

Do not add the activator


----------



## hl0107

Can I use Cidex Plus? 
The bottle says that is 3.4%glutaraldehyde solution. 
How many ml can I dose in a 90 gallon?

Thanks, Hector.


----------



## megasycophant

From googling it (don't take this as gospel), it looks very similar to the stuff that we get. Our solution is 2.5%, and I'm dosing around 1 ml per 5 gallons (some dose more to combat algae, etc). To dose at the same concentration, you'd dose 2.5 / 3.4 * 1 ml = 0.74 ml per 5 gallons.


----------



## hl0107

Thanks for the help!!! megasycophant.


----------



## DanD5303

cs_gardener said:


> I bought my glutaraldehyde from http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx
> 
> I bought the 50% 450 mL biological grade for $18.00 and shipping was only around $6, so it's very reasonably priced and ends up being a fraction of the cost of Excel. They packed it extremely well and I received it in just over a week from the time I placed my order. I'll definitely buy from them again when I finally finish the original bottle.


I agree about the packaging and all, great service and good stuff, but watch the shipping. I also bought 450 mL of the 50% biological grade and was charged 31 bucks for shipping. Not good!


----------



## jcali10

I know this thread has been around a whille, but it was recently brought to my attention, so I just wanted to say that I'm going to try it out. I'm always interested in alternative and economical ways to do things.

I ordered MetriCide 14 from the following website:
http://http://medicalindustries.net/shopsite_sc/store/html/Instrument_SterilizingnDisinfectant_Solutions.html
The following link contains the manufacturers MSDS for MetriCide14, listed as MetriCide.pdf. http://www.metrex.com/index/metrex-education-msds-us-english
It's a solution of glutaraldehyde and water, and it is in a concentration you can use straight out of the bottle, it's a 2.6% solution.


----------



## MatPat

It seems like a lot of people are having this stuff shipped for some reason. With the exception of the 50% solution, most of the time it will be available locally (unless you live in a very small town) at any medical/dental supply place. A quick glance at your Yellow Pages should save people a little bit of shipping expense


----------



## helgymatt

Not available locally here...Des Moines, IA
Population - over 1/2 Million.


----------



## oregon aqua

i posted this a while ago on another thread thought some people might be interested.



> i just found this http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fullt...5/20050003.pdf
> it talks about the effects of glutaraldehyde excel's main ingredient. its from the govt agency NOAA.\
> when i found this paragraph i was very happy.
> 
> "Chronic toxicity bioassays were employed to assess
> the potential for environmental effects associated
> with the release of the biocide, glutaraldehyde. Of the
> three organisms tested, the algal species, P. subcapitata,
> was most sensitive. The IC50 estimate of approximately
> 1.5 mg L−1 (ranging from 1.0 to 1.8 mg L−1)
> indicates that low concentrations of glutaraldehyde can
> dramatically impact growth. In addition, the narrow
> interval between the IC25 and IC50 suggests a steep
> concentration-response curve; small increases in glutaraldehyde
> concentration would be expected to cause
> a disproportionate decrease in growth."
> 
> its a good read if i just skip the over scienced parts


from http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-flourish-excel-got-rid-all-my.html#post26623


----------



## oregon aqua

ohhhhhh yeah. and this the reason excel works for the carbon supplement










this is what happens to glut after introduction to H2O. i forget how long they said it took but i think it was like 2 or 3 hours per step?


----------



## hl0107

Thanks!!! 
Anyone have any experience using glutaraldehyde in a tank with Subwassertang.


----------



## Squawkbert

MetriCide 14 on ebay right now - many bottles available, $18.50/gallon - shipped. I just bought one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150134741850


----------



## Squawkbert

Been using Metricide 14 w/o activator solution for a while now - all is well.


----------



## isenblatter

I called Electron Microscopy Sciences the other day to inquire as to their shipping costs. The Biological Grade 50% 450mL solution is $19.00.

The shipping cost is $10. The hazmat fee on the other hand is $20.
total cost: $49.00 .
I was told any orders of Glut carried the hazmat fees now. So it may be time to find a different supplier of Glut for shipping cost purposes.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

I also ordered from EMS in the last couple of weeks. I purchased the 1 liter 50% biological grade for $23.00. The hazardous material charge is a UPS charge, not a EMS charge. My shipping (including UPS hazmat charge) was $32.24 for a total of $55.24. The concentration of glutaraldehyde in Excel is 1.5%. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter. Excel typically costs me $20 plus freight for a two liter bottle. Seems like a good deal to me, plus it allows me the option of making stronger concentrations so my doses are smaller.


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio

I've worked in disaster cleanup for a few years now, and gluteraldehyde is a chemical we use a LOT. I haven't been able to find Excel locally, can glut be used as a carbon source like it or is it just for algae control?

The stuff we get has a lemon scent, will it still be safe?


----------



## MatPat

If it has a lemon scent I wouldn't use it in my tank. Not sure if it would be bad for the fish or not but I wouldn't chance it. 

Gluteraldehyde can be used as a carbon source as well as an algacide. I think somewhere back in the beginning pages of this thread, someone pointed out that Excel contains gluteraldehyde so they are pretty much the same thing...they definitely smell the same when you open the bottle.


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

I -guarantee- you that the glutaraldehyde is far more toxic than the lemon scent. I use 50% GA that has mixed into it: green colouring, a detergent, and essence of violet (yes, my tank smells like violets and apples). If there is any toxicity that I see it comes from the GA first at high doses, like 3-5 ml/gallon of 2.5% diluted solution. 

So far I've added to my tanks without adverse effects 3ppm of melaleuca oil, 3ppm of bay rum (Pimentosa Racemosa) oil, 3ppm of Clove oil, and 3ppm of pine oil (from a commercially available bottle of pine-allen). One of these days I'm going to do actual toxicity tests on these things... 

With the exception of knowing what was used as a surfactant in the melaleuca oil and pine-allen, the bay rum and clove oil were suspended in an equal concentration of polysorbate 20 which is a fish safe surfactant. 

IME: Most surfactants and detergents are safe for fish and plants and inverts at reasonable levels (less than 5ppm). Soaps however seem to be more toxic. Also, most essential oils seem to be pretty safe for fish too at concentrations at or less than 3ppm. I have not tested higher. 

Excel, IMO, is a self polymerized form of GA. If you allow GA to sit and age in aqueous solution (especially if you heat it up) it will self polymerize. It also breaks down in solution too (it'll reach an equilibrium between polymerized and free GA). Polymerized GA is less toxic since it releases GA slowly once you add it to the tank, but the GA is still the active ingredient.


----------



## MatPat

Thanks for the info on the glut Fortuna Wolf. Where did you find your 50% solution? I've looked for it but by the time you add in the "hazardous material" shipping charge it is more expensive than the 2.5% solution. 

3-5ml per gallon sounds like quite a bit of glut to be adding. I have seen some people recommend high dosages like that but I've never had to add more than about 0.5ml per gallon to cure any BBA or filamentous algae issues I've had. I think Allen noticed some problems with shrimp at the 1ml per gallon dosage if my memory is correct so I can see where fish may have trouble when dosing 3-5ml per gallon. 

Do you know if the glut looses any of it's effectiveness either as an algacide or carbon source when it polymerizes? A few SWOAPE members have asked about this and I think one has even stated they thought it was less effective as it aged.


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

MatPat said:


> Thanks for the info on the glut Fortuna Wolf. Where did you find your 50% solution? I've looked for it but by the time you add in the "hazardous material" shipping charge it is more expensive than the 2.5% solution.
> 
> 3-5ml per gallon sounds like quite a bit of glut to be adding. I have seen some people recommend high dosages like that but I've never had to add more than about 0.5ml per gallon to cure any BBA or filamentous algae issues I've had. I think Allen noticed some problems with shrimp at the 1ml per gallon dosage if my memory is correct so I can see where fish may have trouble when dosing 3-5ml per gallon.
> 
> Do you know if the glut looses any of it's effectiveness either as an algacide or carbon source when it polymerizes? A few SWOAPE members have asked about this and I think one has even stated they thought it was less effective as it aged.


I have a friend who runs a medical supply (actually THE medical supply) company in my old city, pop 200,000. There -will- be places that supply dentists and hospitals and clinics in cities that size and larger. Sometimes they run out and they have to get it locally the same day so there will always be a place to buy it locally. It will take a long time hunting for it, I have to start by asking my GP.

What I have is called Cetylcide-G and is half a gallon of concentrate. The price is similar to that of biological grade GA without shipping. Right I have treated tanks of various algaes at .5ml/gallon without a problem. I think that at doses around 2+ml/gallon you start messing with plants which prevents them from taking up nutrients and causes algae growth. Its just that I had a very nasty filamentous algae infestation that required me to do that. I had another filamentous algae that was muuuccchhh easier to get rid of.

I suspect the GA becomes less toxic as it polymerizes but it retains its usefulness as a carbon source. Afterall, in the concentrations in water that we dose at it will depolymerize and release free GA that can then be taken up.


----------



## mshilling

Anyone find this locally? ive made a few calls with minimal success. I suppose I can order some...im just trying to do my due diligence first!


----------



## MatPat

mshilling said:


> Anyone find this locally? ive made a few calls with minimal success. I suppose I can order some...im just trying to do my due diligence first!


Hmm, you might get an answer to the local part of the question if people knew where you were located 

I did find it locally here in Dayton but the place no longer carries it. I'm sure they would order it for me if I asked them but with places shipping it free, I didn't ask.


----------



## mshilling

LOL ok ok...

Im in Columbus


----------



## MatPat

Haha, you should be able to find a medical supply place in Columbus. 


Some medical supply people may not know the name of the product if you ask for gluteraldehyde so you may have to ask for a specific brand name. You can ask for Metricide 14 (2.6%), 28 (2.5%), or 30 (3.4%), Procide-D (2.5%) or Procide-D plus (3.4%). Cidex Plus 28 is another brand of Gluteraldehyde that is a 3.4% strength solution.


----------



## bpimm

After reading this thread I have a question, has anyone used this for the eradication of mosses and ricca? I have a tank that I can't get rid of the aforementioned pests. They're great when you want them in a tank but difficult to get rid of, especially in Dwarf hairgrass. 

Opinions?


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

Remove your fish and fauna before attempting to bleach riccia and mosses. Around 2-4 ml/G of 2.5% GA will kill them (And some other plants too!)


----------



## bpimm

Removing the fish is easy but the plants... It's a soil tank so it's not really an option. Probably just chance it. I have mostly hardy plants, a lot of anubias, hairgrass, Downoi, and a few crypts. I can cut out the stems and replant. 

The other option is to tear down the tank and start over which doesn't guarantee getting rid of it either.

Thanks.


----------



## MatPat

It should work on Riccia but I'm not sure about the moss. I think Allen initially found it removed his Riccia but it eventually came back. I'm not sure if this was from some that survived or whether it was transplanted from another of his tanks. I do believe dosing/overdosing glut will cause some issure with your Downoi so remove that one if you can. The Crypts may or may not melt, it's hard to say.


----------



## jcali10

I've searched for Glutaradehyde locally online with no success. I think I'm going to check the yellow pages for medical supply companies; some local distributors may not have websites. Of course I'll have to ask for it by a trade name Metricide. 

There are online sources of course. I am not sure I would be interested in solutions higher than 2.5 or 3% unless big savings were involved.


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

This is what I use. Makes 18 liters. http://www.cetylite.com/portal.php?category_id=1&product_id=62 Cost is $50-60


----------



## MatPat

Nice find Fortuna Wolf, 18 liters makes the price just over $11 per gallon!

Did you find Cetylcide-G locally or do you order it online? Since it is a 50% solution, I assume there would be a hazardous shipping charge added if ordered online. 

The link you provided is offering free shipping on orders of $100 or more. If they are waiving the hazardous shipping charge normally associated with 50% solutions of gluteraldehyde a SWOAPE group order may be in our future


----------



## jcali10

I went ahead and bought 2 gallons of Metricide from Richmark Medical, cost $38.54 shipped. 

It may not be the cheapest source of glutaradehyde, but it's ready to go, straight out of the
bottle, and it measures just like Excel, 1 ml per 10 gallons water as a source of organic carbon.


----------



## mshilling

I picked up a quart of Metricide 28 and started dosing tonight. I have a 38 gallon heavily planted, with a few strands of hair algae that came from some plants I got online as well as the beginnings of BBA on a few decorations (I have kids...pirate and treasure chest) and starting on my powerhead.

I do weekly 50% water changes on Sunday but did not get the glut until today, so I will start with a daily dose of 15ml and do a 30ml dose at water change time this sunday. I also EI dose using greg watson dry ferts daily.

I will post my results. I have a small school of red eye tetras, 2 kuhli loaches, a dwarf pleco and a molly that has lived through everything. I am sure they'll be fine based on what im reading here but I will keep an eye out.

Also, anyone think it benefits to dose before lights on, after lights out, or it doesnt much matter? I was thinking it might be more beneficial after lights out but there is no science to that theory, just my brain working in its strange way.


Mike


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

Well, plants still need light to convert the GA to sugars...


----------



## mshilling

Good point...ill try to remember to add it in the morning when I fertilize.

On a side note, why is this forum so dead?


----------



## vancat

Is the AGA convention going on now maybe?

PS Dennis- if you are still following this thread-- HI! How are ya?
penny


----------



## MatPat

mshilling said:


> On a side note, why is this forum so dead?


You may wanna try here for a little more active SWOAPE Forum


----------



## mbuchanan

In Columbus Ohio you can get metracide at 
http://online.boundtree.com/store/product_index.asp?Cat=&SubCat=&Prod=552-10-2800EA

for 27.80 a gallon


----------



## livionakano

Did any of you, Glutaraldehyde users, ever noticed a lowering, or even vanishing concentrations of NO3?
When noticed that, we tested even in a bucket of water, only with some KNO3, and after adding some Glutaraldehyde, concentration as lowered too much!
Could be a reaction from both, or a change in the testing parameters?

Regards, 

Livio

P.S. Not registered with Excel, just when using Glutaraldehyde


----------



## overboard

Bump


----------



## Zapins

livionakano said:


> Did any of you, Glutaraldehyde users, ever noticed a lowering, or even vanishing concentrations of NO3?
> 
> When noticed that, we tested even in a bucket of water, only with some KNO3, and after adding some Glutaraldehyde, concentration as lowered too much!
> Could be a reaction from both, or a change in the testing parameters?
> 
> Regards,
> Livio
> P.S. Not registered with Excel, just when using Glutaraldehyde


This is an absolutely fascinating observation and seems to support my suspicions!

The way plants incorporate nitrogen into their tissues is by using an enzyme called glutamine synthase to make glutamine in the following reaction: 
(NH4+) + Glutamic acid ----glutamine synthase ---> glutamine

Glutamic acid looks like this:








and glutamine looks like this:








Gluteraldehyde (excel) looks like this:









Just look at the similarity between gluteraldehyde and glutamic acid and glutamine! The drop in nitrates makes total sense because the plant must be using gluteraldehyde as a backbone for adding nitrogen to. This is probably why the nitrate levels in the water drop after adding gluteraldehyde, because the plant can absorb more nitrogen without having to waste energy making the backbone for it.

I wonder if instead of being a CO2 substitute, is gluteraldehyde really just helping the plants absorb nitrogen faster (and therefore helping them grow faster)? After all, if it was providing CO2 then it would drive photosynthesis faster and produce pearling, and I have never seen plants pearl after adding excel, nothing like adding CO2 and seeing pearling.


----------



## oregon aqua

Here is what happens to Glutaraldehyde after its added to water.

that picture is from DOW cheimcals.


----------



## Zapins

I don't think that happens very quickly, since gluteraldehyde is diluted with water. If all of it turned into CO2 then the solution wouldn't be active for 28 days like it says on their bottle since it would all be CO2.

I think that is only one of the reactions that takes place with gluteraldehyde when it is added to water. But in the presence of other chemicals like KNO3 or NH3/NH4, I would bet that it can react to form different products. Perhaps gluteraldehyde is providing several nutrients to the plants at the same time. What do you think?


----------



## oregon aqua

Zapins said:


> I don't think that happens very quickly, since gluteraldehyde is diluted with water. If all of it turned into CO2 then the solution wouldn't be active for 28 days like it says on their bottle since it would all be CO2.
> 
> I think that is only one of the reactions that takes place with gluteraldehyde when it is added to water. But in the presence of other chemicals like KNO3 or NH3/NH4, I would bet that it can react to form different products. Perhaps gluteraldehyde is providing several nutrients to the plants at the same time. What do you think?


Here is what i could find http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterat...ides/pdfs/noreg/253-01447.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc


----------



## overboard

This caught my eye because I have a tank that has just started devouring KNO3. I have been fighting a green threadlike algae, so I dose twice the recommended Excel. It is also lightly stocked (I think) and I recently let a small chain sword totally take over; I had assumed that those were the causes. Of course, this was with Excel. I am almost out and just received my Cidex 3.4% yesterday, getting up the nerve to try it out. The poster above said that Excel did not have this effect in tests, only glutaraldehyde did. Does that mean I could need to add even more KNO3? yikes.


----------



## helgymatt

Zapins said:


> This is an absolutely fascinating observation and seems to support my suspicions!
> 
> The way plants incorporate nitrogen into their tissues is by using an enzyme called glutamine synthase to make glutamine in the following reaction:
> (NH4+) + Glutamic acid ----glutamine synthase ---> glutamine
> 
> Glutamic acid looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and glutamine looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gluteraldehyde (excel) looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just look at the similarity between gluteraldehyde and glutamic acid and glutamine! The drop in nitrates makes total sense because the plant must be using gluteraldehyde as a backbone for adding nitrogen to. This is probably why the nitrate levels in the water drop after adding gluteraldehyde, because the plant can absorb more nitrogen without having to waste energy making the backbone for it.
> 
> I wonder if instead of being a CO2 substitute, is gluteraldehyde really just helping the plants absorb nitrogen faster (and therefore helping them grow faster)? After all, if it was providing CO2 then it would drive photosynthesis faster and produce pearling, and I have never seen plants pearl after adding excel, nothing like adding CO2 and seeing pearling.


How about this. Glut provides carbon dioxide which increases plant growth. Increased plant growth means increased nitrogen uptake and less nitrogen in the water, right?


----------



## MartialTheory

Well its been 2 years since this thread has first started. So conclusivley now can we say that it is just as effective as excel? Has there been any bad experiences with it so far? 

Where can we get the 50 percent solituions now? How much should we dose after all?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi MartialTheory,

I have been using Glut instead of Excel for about 6 months now and I find it works as good as Excel both as a source for carbon and as a algae inhibitor. I buy mine here: http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx. See post #114 on page 12 of this thread for information as to price and more importantly, hazmat and shipping costs. BTW, Excel contains 1.5% glutaraldehyde.


----------



## MartialTheory

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi MartialTheory,
> 
> I have been using Glut instead of Excel for about 6 months now and I find it works as good as Excel both as a source for carbon and as a algae inhibitor. I buy mine here: http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx. See post #114 on page 12 of this thread for information as to price and more importantly, hazmat and shipping costs. BTW, Excel contains 1.5% glutaraldehyde.


Thanks im about to get it then.

But how about the beginin about 2.5 percent? That didn't seem harmful?

How is ODing working for u when u use it to combat algae? Do ur plants die as well? How about shrimps and fishes?

I have been told it is more harmful.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi MartialTheory,

I mix is at 1.5% concentration. Some of my tanks get "normal" dosage per Excel instructions; other tanks get 2X dosage if I have an outbreak of algae starting. 

I don't have any problems with my plants at 2X dosage except for my Vals (but not Sags). My Vallisneria grow 24" tall without Excel / Glut and 2"-3" tall with it. They still send out runners and look healthy except for being stunted. Who knows, this may be a way to develop a new "dwarf Val"! LOL Instead of Vals I use tall (18") Eleocharis species (Giant Hairgrass).


----------



## Crispino Ramos

hl0107 said:


> Thanks!!!
> Anyone have any experience using glutaraldehyde in a tank with Subwassertang.


Subwassertang would melt if you dose 3times the recommended amount. It happened to my plant.


----------



## nfrank

I just bought a gallon of Metricide 28 on ebay for $17.50 shipped. Clearly, an impulse purchase. Not sure what i will use it for ....since i already use pressurized CO2 and dont have much visible algae. Guess i can experiment and can always share with friends. 

Now that i bought it, i need to find out what i purchased , and if i got the right stuff 

I already figured from reading this thred that i wont use the NaNO3 activator which also includes a rust inhibitor. I guess that the surfactant (wetting agent) is going to be a very small amount and at the concentrations that we use, it can be ignored, right?

What is the significance of the "28?" Is this the shelf life of the open bottle of disinfectant with the activator... before it polymerizes?(i.e. changes its organic carbon structure). I am guessing that the potency as algicide can change after that time although it can still be effective as source of carbon.

What do you folks think about Metricide 28 and what are your recommendations for its use?

Thanks.


----------



## overboard

So far, so good. I had worked off of the assumption that Excel is probably 2.5%; I think that was a ways back in this thread. I am dosing the Cidex Plus (3.4%) at the same amounts as Excel; daily at 1 ml per 10 gallons of tank size (not capacity), three times that at water changes. Apparently I am really overdosing, yet all plants and fish are OK so far. My main problem is green thread or hair algae- it is gone from one tank, well controlled in two others. I started using it in two tanks that I didn't use Excel in before. I didn't notice any real change in nitrate consumption, so there may be no connection there after all. 

nfrank- don't use the activator. I am cynical, but I would suspect that it is just an indicator for the test strips they sell also, so that the manufacturer puts the liability for replacing the solution on the user, and makes sure they sell a lot more. Doesn't aspirin cost $5.00 each in the hospital...? I used my Cidex Plus for three months, and it seemed to work better and better, no sign of degrading.


----------



## gdevil

> don't use the activator. I am cynical, but I would suspect that it is just an indicator for the test strips they sell also, so that the manufacturer puts the liability for replacing the solution on the user, and makes sure they sell a lot more. Doesn't aspirin cost $5.00 each in the hospital...? I used my Cidex Plus for three months, and it seemed to work better and better, no sign of degrading.


Are you sure of this? because in medicine studies have demostrate that glutaraldehyde lose his effects whit the pass of the time and also that in alcalyne ph is less strong this, so is more a stabilizator than an activator...

Any way i'm not use in it either...


----------



## overboard

You are probably right, it is a stabilizer.. I just guess that Cidex is an effective algeacide and carbon source even after it has degraded as a safe disinfectant. I just finished a quart I got four months ago, and started a new bottle, and noticed no difference in the 10 gallon that still has hair algae... alas.


----------



## ErioLover

overboard said:


> You are probably right, it is a stabilizer.. I just guess that Cidex is an effective algeacide and carbon source even after it has degraded as a safe disinfectant. I just finished a quart I got four months ago, and started a new bottle, and noticed no difference in the 10 gallon that still has hair algae... alas.


Im sorry but I don't quite follow. Are u saying that it is useless when adding the activator? Or are u saying that cidex has no effect on algae? I just bought a bottle but its too early to tell its effects. It doesn't seem like it does much on spirogyra but neither does excel.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi overboard,

Just an FYI, Post #115 (page 12 of this thread) is where the Glut concentration in Excel is mentioned to be 1.5%. This was determined as a result of testing done in India. The assumption of a 2.5% concentration is almost 2X the actual.


----------



## overboard

Wow, so when I thought I was 50% over, I was more than 130% stronger than Excel. I haven't seen any harmful effects, though. Thanks for the info- that's a lot of reading to do.

ErioLover- Cidex works great without the activator. Like you said, the algae that I still have was resistant to Excel also. And we are saving a LOT of money. I didn't use the activator because I thought that anything that is added to make a test work would be too strong, like I would never put the chemicals in my water test kits in the tank. I honestly have no idea if that is logical, but I didn't want to add what I couldn't identify.


----------



## SKSuser

overboard said:


> I am dosing the Cidex Plus (3.4%)
> 
> ...
> 
> I used my Cidex Plus for three months, and it seemed to work better and better, no sign of degrading.


I'm confused. I tried to buy some Cidex tonight and the current MSDS sheet says that it contains phthalaldehyde. Are you using this? Its a similar compound, but not the same.

Here's what I'm looking at, since I have an allmed in my town.
http://www.allmed.net/catalog/item/1,838,839,3030,862

Also, Wavicide says it has glutaraldehyde in it, but it also mentions a surfactant, a mild fresh scent, and a rust inhibitor.... I've heard of its use in the aquarium before, but recently it seems like glutaraldehyde alternatives, and their information, is getting sparse.


----------



## Squawkbert

I'm not sure about Cidex... may be a rose by any other name type situation.

As to the surfactant/scent, this is generally provided in another (smaller) bottle - don't use it if you're using this stuff as an Excel replacement.


----------



## ShayF

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Just an FYI, Post #115 (page 12 of this thread) is where the Glut concentration in Excel is mentioned to be 1.5%. This was determined as a result of testing done in India.


Do you have any reference to this Indian test?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi ShayF,

Sure, here is the link to the thread. The post is a little over 1/3 the way down the page, dated Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:09 PM. Don't even ask how long it took me to find this reference. I did a lot of digging for almost a month and found posts on countless different forums. I found guesses of anywhere between 1% to 3% concentration of Glutaraldehyde in Excel. This is the only thread I was able to find where testing provided the results.


----------



## ShayF

Seattle_Aquarist, thank you very much!


----------



## MotionInsilver

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi MartialTheory,
> 
> I have been using Glut instead of Excel for about 6 months now and I find it works as good as Excel both as a source for carbon and as a algae inhibitor. I buy mine here: http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx. See post #114 on page 12 of this thread for information as to price and more importantly, hazmat and shipping costs. BTW, Excel contains 1.5% glutaraldehyde.


 was piqued on trying this out to eliminate alage issues as I'm already having issues with a nano setup within 2 weeks as well but its kinda confusing on which solutions to get on that site? as there are different solution percentage and even "biological grade"


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi MotionInsilver,

Unless you have a lot of aquariums, or large aquariums, it is probably cheaper to use Seachem Excel. It is also easier to get in most areas. Here is a link that helped me solve a lot of my algae issues. Along with dosing Excel I did 2X week 33% water changes and kept the lighting period short (6 hours or less), especially when the tank is new, helped a lot! BTW, I use 50% Biological Grade.


----------



## dunderman

Be very careful with glutaraldehyde. Not only is it very toxic, it is also carcinogenic. Additionally, it has a very short shelf life (30 days) once it has been activated. A gallon for less than $20 may seem great when compared to $12 for 16 ounces of Excel, but unless you have dozens of tanks, you will run out of shelf life long before you run out of glutaraldehyde.


----------



## jcali10

Why would you activate it? Do you have medical or dental appliances to sterilize? I've always just thrown away the little bottle of activator that came with the gallons of Metricide I've purchased. The activation date and expiration date apply to it's use as a sterilant. Anyone using glutaradehyde as a source of carbon would not activate the product.


----------



## Zapins

Hmm... what exactly does the activator do and do plants use the active form or the inactive form?


----------



## jcali10

zapins wrote:



> Hmm... what exactly does the activator do and do plants use the active form or the inactive form?


Metricide which is a sterilant and high-level disinfectant is 2.6% glutaraldehyde and 97.4% inert ingredients (water). A gallon comes with a 3.8 oz bottle of activator for it's intended use, sterilizing medical and dental equipment. Once activated, it will last for 14 days and should maintain a glutaraldehyde level of at least 1.5%. The activator will turn the glutaraldehyde green, I'm just reading off the label.

The label also says it is a violation of Federal Law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi jcali10,

I purchase 50% concentration Biological Grade Glutaraldehyde; it does not have an "activator". In fact, if you have read this thread in its entirety, you would know that the "activator" that is provided with some of the products that contain Glutaraldehyde is not used.

Glutaraldehyde has several applications, not just as a "sterilizing agent". Here is a link to Wikipedia that indicates some of its' various uses including that of an algaecide. A polymerized version of Glut is the active ingredient in Excel so it is being used in a manner that is being used in a "consistent manner". I hope this clarifies it for you.


----------



## Zapins

Thanks for the responses so far, but they don't exactly answer what I was curious about. I'm interested in understanding the activator more, what does it do to the inactive glut to change it into something that will expire?

Why is it 14 days and not 50? I assume whatever change the activator does is unstable which is why there is a 14 day life time. I also assume the activator chemically changes the glut. into a more destructive form, but what is that form and is that the form that plants use or is the inactive form the one plant use or alternatively can plants use both the inactive form and the activated form?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Zapins,

I cannot answer you question as to what the "activator" does. I can tell you that I use "plain" Glut (no activator) and my results from using it are basically the same as using Excel both as source of carbon for plant growth and in higher doses as an algaecide.


----------



## Zapins

Hmmm... the pieces of the puzzle come together! Thanks. Though I'm still curious about what it does if anyone knows.

Does anyone dose activated glut? What are your results?

What happens if you dose glut after the 14 day expiration date?


----------



## jcali10

Yes, wiki lists 3 uses for Glutaraldehyde. I was specifically speaking to Metricide which contains glut. As for the activator, sorry I don't have any information on it. Like I said, I tossed it. I was only interested in the glut. Metricide comes in a 14 day formula and a 28 day formula. I image they have different strength activators. But the glut is still the same 2.6%.


----------



## jcali10

seattle aquarist wrote:


> I purchase 50% concentration Biological Grade Glutaraldehyde; it does not have an "activator". In fact, if you have read this thread in its entirety, you would know that the "activator" that is provided with some of the products that contain Glutaraldehyde is not used.


 I am well aware the activator is not used, I have been using glutaraldehyde for quite a while. If you read permalink 165, posted by dunderman you would see I was not the one concerned about glut shelf life, but rather I was trying to dispell that idea.


----------



## bigstick120

What is the best online source for this?


----------



## jcali10

http://www.richmarkmedical.com/

Click on disinfectants and cleaners, you'll see the link for Metricide.


----------



## bigstick120

jcali10 said:


> http://www.richmarkmedical.com/
> 
> Click on disinfectants and cleaners, you'll see the link for Metricide.


I cant seem to find shipping info! I hate when they dont tell you!


----------



## cwhite67

double check my math.

I got the 50% biological grade glut.
I filled my 2 liter empty excel bottle with 2 liters of distilled water.
I added 6ml of the 50% solution of glut.

Is this correct for a 1.5% solution of glut?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi cwhite67,

1) Let's see, 1000 ml per liter

2) 2000 ml in two liters

3) 1.5% of 2000 ml is 30 ml

4) If your Glut was 100% pure you would use 30 ml in 1970 ml of water. However since you are using 50% concentration Glut; to get a 1.5% percent concentration you would need 60 ml of Glut in 1940 ml of water.


----------



## SirLancaster

I started using Glutaraldehyde 2% today, commercial name Gluterate, a product from Canada. Smells like lime. $29/gal. That's the only Glut that I could get locally here in Panama (Central America). I have a NPT 40 gal. tank with a brown and green algae growing on plant leaves. Hope this helps. Just made an initial 20 ml. dose and guess will do 5 ml. per day subsequently.

Question: I read that Glut is carcinogenic. Do you think that there will be any risks by getting our hands wet with aquarium water now that there is Glut in there?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi SirLancaster,

I have mixed my own Excel strength Glut for a couple of years now. I mix my own from a 50% concentration solution. I take care not to get the concentrated Glut on my hands or in my eyes. 

After I have mixed up my 1.5% concentration I don't worry about it too much. I add it after I have done whatever needs to be done inside the tank. If I have to go into the tank after adding it, I wash my hands and arms promptly after completion. Glut breaks down into carbon after several hours in the tank.


----------



## barbarossa4122

I use Metricide14 at 1.5m:1w ratio.


----------



## SirLancaster

Nobody... Weird.


----------



## davemonkey

SirLancaster said:


> Nobody... Weird.


Roy addressed your question.

As for me, If it is indeed a carcinogen (you need to check the MSDS to be sure), then excercise care when handling it. But, as others have said before, it breaks down into carbon after time so I personally am not worried about it.


----------



## SirLancaster

Thanks for the replies. 

After several weeks of using the glut 1.5% dosing as per flourish excel instructions, I got the brown algae under control and plants are growing much better. The only problem is that now I'm getting green film algae (or bacteria?) growing on top layer of plant leaves (the ones nearest to the surface). The green film is easy to remove by rubbing fingers. 

I'm using a sprayer to apply the glut, so most of it falls directly on these leaves that are getting the green stuff, so... Is the glut promoting the green stuff?

Anyone had this experience?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi SirLancaster,

Dosing per Excel intructions will give some minimum algacide properties but mostly you are dosing carbon for plant growth at that level. 

Dosing at 2X the daily Excel recommended dose greatly increases the algacide properties, which is what the posts in the early pages of this thread (book) discuss. 

As my plants grow toward the surface and the light becomes brighter on the leaf surfaces and algae will try to take hold. At that point I usually trim my plants down to 1/3 the height and let them grow back up again, the good news is they usually grow back even thicker!


----------



## LowTek

SirLancaster said:


> Question: I read that Glut is carcinogenic. Do you think that there will be any risks by getting our hands wet with aquarium water now that there is Glut in there?


The answer is no. Here's my supporting document:
http://www.dow.com/scripts/litorder.asp?filepath=biocides/pdfs/noreg/253-01444.pdf

while Im at it heres a whole slew of research for 50% glut:
http://www.dow.com/biocides/prod/glut50.htm


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## LowTek

after skimming through those documents id say use basic chemical precautions when handling this stuff. Inhalation seems not to be much of an issue as the odor threshold(being able to smell it) is <1ppb(billion) and the irritation threshold is 0.3ppm. Basically smelling it is no big deal but if it starts to sting your nose, back off and get some ventilation.

however. I advise EXTREME CAUTION with your eyes. Anything 2% or higher can cause irreversible eye damage if you get any in your eyes. So as harmless as this is in all other aspects, you should probably get some goggles or safety glasses when handling, just in case a drop splashes up.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi LowTek,

I see you are a newer member to APC.....welcome! Thank you for your input on following proper safety measures when handling chemicals, Glutartaldehyde included.


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## SirLancaster

LowTek, this is the kind of answer I was looking for. Thank you very much.


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## LowTek

thanks for the welcome, Ive been a lurker for years now. Do most of my discussion on the IRC chat.


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## ecotanker

*glutamic acid instead of excel*

In another forum, some one brought up the option of using potassium glutamate as a substitute for excel. Has anyone done this to test the effective 
of this form of glutamate?

Glutamate has a structure very similar to glutaraldehyde and my guess is that it will provide carbon for the plants when broken down, but is it an effective
algacide?


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I also ordered from EMS in the last couple of weeks. I purchased the 1 liter 50% biological grade for $23.00. The hazardous material charge is a UPS charge, not a EMS charge. My shipping (including UPS hazmat charge) was $32.24 for a total of $55.24. The concentration of glutaraldehyde in Excel is 1.5%. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter. Excel typically costs me $20 plus freight for a two liter bottle. Seems like a good deal to me, plus it allows me the option of making stronger concentrations so my doses are smaller.


Hi,

How do you store it and what is the shelf life ? Thanks.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

I store my unmixed concentrate in the downstairs refrigerator, carefully marked as "Poison" with "Mr. Yuk" stickers just in case my nephews come for a visit. I finished my first bottle after a little over a year and did not have any problems. Because it is a little expensive, and I didn't want to have a 3 year supply, I sell small quantities (50 ml - 100 ml) at cost to local club members.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> I store my unmixed concentrate in the downstairs refrigerator, carefully marked as "Poison" with "Mr. Yuk" stickers just in case my nephews come for a visit. I finished my first bottle after a little over a year and did not have any problems. Because it is a little expensive, and I didn't want to have a 3 year supply, I sell small quantities (50 ml - 100 ml) at cost to local club members.


Hi Seattle_Aquarist ,

Good idea. I'll make sure to have *poison* on the bottle and keep it in the small "fish only" fridge in my garage.


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## dennis

Wow, awesome to see this thread still going. 

For what it's worth, I still occasionally use the gluteraldehyde I bought a few years ago. I do not dose the whole tank but will spot apply it with a syringe to any nasties I don't like, especially on hardscape. It still seems to have its potentcy. I do not store it in the fridge but in a dark drawer of my desk. I dose straight from the bottle. I suspect that since I do not use it very often, the bottle is not opened enough to allow a serious degradation of the material. I may be wrong though.....


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## TheLoachGuy

Its the never dying thread!

I'm just now finishing up the last of that gluut I got from Matt a couple years ago.


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## Tex Gal

I got MetriCide 28 (2.6% Glutaraldehyde solution). My PHD math son and hubby did the math. I have the dosing bottles that hold 1000 ml. The math says for me to put 425ml of water and 575ml of Metricide 28 to get the same dosage as excel (1.5% Glutaraldehyde). SO... that's what I did...


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## Singtoh

Hello All,

I used Excel a couple of months ago to try to eradicate some BBA and it had no effect. I have just started dosing Cidex 2.7% at about 3ppm a day, nearly the same as an initial dose after W/C of Excel, and BBA is turning purple to pinkish on the third day, this is a good thing. I have a question for any of the Chemical Freak types on this forum. First what I did: I thought it would be handy to just mix my ferts with Cidex cut back with distilled water to .5% concentration and run it in my auto-dosers since the other 97.3% is just inert substance??. This concentration in my case would dump 1ppm/day Glutaraldehyde into my tank, roughly a 2x Excel dose for an 85L tank to kill BBA and preventitive for a month or so. Now, after 24hr's the NPK mix has turned a slight tea color but it smells the same as before. The concentration in the NPK flask of Glut is 86.4ppm. My mix is KNO3,Fleet Enema,MgSO4.7H2O,K2SO4 and of course the Glut at slightly less than EI mix. Do any of you guys have any ideas on what happened inside the mix? I will probably throw it out and mix again, but it would be handy to dose like this and I am curious to know what happened inside the mix?? Internet search has provided me with nothing that my non-chemical brain can wrap itself around. Thanks in advance for any theories??

Cheers,

Singtoh


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## wwh2694

WOW this is great stuff... I didnt know you can use cidex as a replacement for flourish excel. I use cidex everytime at work to clean equipment. This is great. Hmmmmm...I been only using flourish excel when I do water change for prevention of algae. I dose as per seachem after water change. Its great stuff......... So back on Cidex some people said dilute it,some not whats the verdict?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi wwh2694,

Cidex or Metracide both contain Glutaraldehyde and can be used as a substitute to Excel but do not use it if it has had the "additive" bottle mixed with it.

Per the MSDS for Cidrex is 2.55% Glutaraldehyde. Seachem Excel is 1.5% Glutaraldehyde. You don't have to dilute the Cidrex, just add less. For example instead of 5ml of Excel per 10 gallons for the Initial dose, use 3 ml of Cidex per 10 gallons. For the Daily dose us 3 ml Cidex per 50 gallons instead of 5 ml of Excel per 50 gallons.


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## wwh2694

Thanks alot i have been using cidex for equipment disinfection for 14yrs. No wonder everytime i use excel in my tank it smells familliar.  Happy New Year....


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## spypet

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> do not use it if it has had the "additive" bottle mixed with it.


please clarify how you would know that or not.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi spypet,

Typically the products ship with a bottle of "activator" which adds additional chemicals and boosts the disinfecting capabilities of the products for up to 28 days. Since we aren't disinfecting our tanks we don't add the "activator", we just use the basic solution which contains the Glutaraldehyde.


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## wwh2694

Thanks


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## wwh2694

I bought 1gal of Cidex for $15 bucks. It has 2.4% Gluteraldehyde.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi wwh2694,

Interesting....the MSDS that I found online indicates a 2.55% concentration. My guess is the MSDS I found is out of date.


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## barbarossa4122

Hi Seatle_Aquarist,



> Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist
> I also ordered from EMS in the last couple of weeks. I purchased the 1 liter 50% biological grade for $23.00. The hazardous material charge is a UPS charge, not a EMS charge. My shipping (including UPS hazmat charge) was $32.24 for a total of $55.24. The concentration of glutaraldehyde in Excel is 1.5%. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter. Excel typically costs me $20 plus freight for a two liter bottle. Seems like a good deal to me, plus it allows me the option of making stronger concentrations so my doses are smaller.


I was wondering if you know the shipping cost for 450ml of 50% Glut from EMS. I reckon it will be about the same as the shipping cost for 1L. (32.24)


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

I learned recently, and verified with EMS, that if I ordered the 25% Glutaraldehyde there was no HAZMAT UPS charge. Therefore in the future I will be ordering the 25% Biological Grade Glut instead of the 50% concentration.


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## barbarossa4122

Hi Seattle_Aquarist,

Great info. I am going with 25% then and just use 120ml instead of 60ml for a 2L bottle of "excel" like. Boy, I am glad I asked you about the shipping. Thanks a lot.


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## barbarossa4122

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi Seattle_Aquarist,
> 
> Great info. I am going with 25% then and just use 120ml instead of 60ml for a 2L bottle of "excel" like. Boy, I am glad I asked you about the shipping. Thanks a lot.


From here: http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

I usually call my order in and specify "no special packaging" otherwise they will want to thermally protect the ingredients so it says good for your electron microscope. They will want to know what you want if for, just tell them it is used as an aquarium additive. They will assign you a customer number and you are good to go. BTW, Credit Cards only; no PayPal!


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## barbarossa4122

Hi Seattle_Aquarist,

Great info ob how to order Glut from EMS. I'll place an order soon b/c my Metricide supply is almost gone. Thanks a lot.


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## barbarossa4122

Hi Seatle_Aquarist,

I received my 450ml bottle of 25% bio grade glut the other day ($26.00 shipped) and would like to make a double strength (3%) Excel like solution. Will 120ml of Glut to 1L bottle do it ?
__________________


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

You are correct, 120ml of 25% concentration Glut combined with 880ml of water will make 1000ml of 3.0% concentration solution (2X Excel strength).

BTW, your 1000ml of mix cost you $6.93 including freight. Typically a 2 liter bottle of Excel costs about $30.00 from the big on-line stores plus $8.99 shipping. Congratulations, you are saving about 61% and getting it in the concentration you wanted!


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## barbarossa4122

Hi Seatle_Aquarist,

Well, thanks to you I bought 25% Glut. Metricide worked good also but, I'll more happy with the Glut since I can manipulate more the concentration of the solution. Great help, thanks.


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## DvanK

Whats the shelf life of Metricide? Does it go bad after 14 days?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi DvanK,

MetriCide is typically used to sterilize heat sensitive medical devices and instruments. For example, if you were a dentist and needed to sterilize instruments you would pour some Metricide into a container and add the instruments for 20 minutes. The MetriCide could be used for up to 14 days and then would have lost most of it's sterilization properties and would need to be replaced.

My experience has been that as long as I store my Glut in a cool, dark, location and it remains viable for well over a year after I have opened the container.


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## DvanK

Thanks I was afraid that It would loose its properties after 2 weeks or so.


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## megasycophant

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> My experience has been that as long as I store my Glut in a cool, dark, location and it remains viable for well over a year after I have opened the container.


Is there a way to determine whether it's viable other than observing whether it seems to be having an effect?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi megasycophant,

Yes, apparently there are chemical indicators, in the form of test strips, that can be used to check the viability of Metricide. The strips check for the Minimum Effective Concentration (which is 1.5%) in the application I described above.


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## bammbamm

Hi all,

Are we sure with 1.5% Glutaraldehyde concentration of excel?
Today I bought 1l of 50% chem pure glut, I have mixed 60ml of it with 1940ml water to make 1.5% solution. And I can dose this 5ml for 40l at water changes and 5ml for 200l daily right?

PS. I keep injecting 30ppm of CO2 with ph-controlled system. I aimed to use Glut as algicide and as additional carbon supply for the tank. Do you think there will be any problem due to excess of Glut or due to excess of CO2, if I keep injecting CO2 and dosing glut?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi bammbamm,

Yes, I am as sure as I can be without doing the testing. The testing was done by an ex-chemist in India; here is where the results are posted; you can review the entire thread or read the post dated Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:09 pm. It took me several weeks of Google searches to find that thread.

Yes, you are correct. 1940 ml of water plus 60 ml of 50% Glut will give you 2000 ml of a 1.5% concentration solution.

I use the Glut as an algaecide in conjunction with my 30 ppm CO2 measured with 4.0 dGH indicator solution in a drop checker. Glut, like Excel, seems most effective on the "soft" algae types.and has some however minimal effect on GDA, GSA, or BGA. My plants seem to like the extra carbon!


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## bammbamm

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi bammbamm,
> 
> Yes, I am as sure as I can be without doing the testing. The testing was done by an ex-chemist in India; here is where the results are posted; you can review the entire thread or read the post dated Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:09 pm. It took me several weeks of Google searches to find that thread.
> 
> Yes, you are correct. 1940 ml of water plus 60 ml of 50% Glut will give you 2000 ml of a 1.5% concentration solution.
> 
> I use the Glut as an algaecide in conjunction with my 30 ppm CO2 measured with 4.0 dGH indicator solution in a drop checker. Glut, like Excel, seems most effective on the "soft" algae types.and has some however minimal effect on GDA, GSA, or BGA. My plants seem to like the extra carbon!


Hi Roy,

Thanks a lot for your detailed reply. I'll start dosing 20ml of 1.5% Glut solution at my 800l tank daily (100ml after water changes). My tank's KH is 3, and ph-controller set to 6.42-6.48 interval, so I'm injecting slightly more than 30ppm CO2. And the current setup is 1 month old, we'll see results 
Thanks again.

Berkay


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## NeonFlux

I have been mixing glut dilutions as well; and it does work for me. Plants are happy with the extra carbon and the it is keeping the black beard algae at bay


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## Aquaticz

So I read another thread somewhere & did not know about not adding the activator. I used the activator. Do I trash it and start over or use it????


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Aquaticz,

I don't think I would use it. From the information that I can find, the ingredients in the "activator" are:
40% potassium acetate (which should be non-toxic) and 
30% Polyphosphoric acids, esters with triethanolamine, sodium salts (the esters with triethanolamine may be toxic to fish)

I am not a chemist, and and it would depend upon the concentration of triethanolamine, but I would exercise extreme caution.

Possibly another member who has had this happen will relate their experiences.


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## Aquaticz

Thx Roy

anyone?

so far I have dosed 3 tanks 4 times- no problems observed


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## Tex Gal

Just ordered Metricide 14 - 1 gallon for $16. Ordered two of them and paid just $10 shipping. SO cheap!

http://www.dynamicdental.net/metricidegallon.aspx


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## Aquaticz

+1 tax Gal
I did the same thing about 3 weeks ago because I wanted to make some 
"Good &^*%" (mix your own micro)without buying excel. I definetly see a BIG difference for a small price - which for me is a part of the fun & hobby


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## DvanK

Tex Gal said:


> Just ordered Metricide 14 - 1 gallon for $16. Ordered two of them and paid just $10 shipping. SO cheap!
> 
> http://www.dynamicdental.net/metricidegallon.aspx


Damn!

I think they adjusted the shipping charges because I cant get it at that price anymore.

Do you guys have any other reliable sources?


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## pat w

Hit the pull-down on the shipping. Ground is $11.21 to Mobile,AL


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## wet

Hi!

I was reminded you folks paved the way for this. Here's a calculator you may like: http://glut.petalphile.com/

(Converts Cidex Plus, Metricide 14, and various Glut concentrations to 1.6% Glut solutions. Needs Javascript and a modern browser to work properly.)

Thanks!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi wet,

It looks like you have made a good start on it but it has two issues.

First why are we using 1.6% instead of the Seachem Excel concentration of 1.5% as the target concentration? The resulting concentration is about 7% stronger than Excel and requires 7% more Glut/Metricide/etc to formulate.

The second issue is a "bug". If I indicate I are using 5% Glut as your source solution the result indicates I am using a 10% source solution and indicates an incorrect amount (by 50%) to add.
*Bug*









Here are some screen shots of the Glut calculator verses wet's calculator for the same volume and concentrations. Disregard the cost/ml and Total columns, they do not apply to this calculation.

I'll stick with the Excel based Glut calculator on my computer at this point; but this is a good start for an online version.

Thanks,
-Roy


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## wet

Hey Seattle_Aquarist. Just syncing up these threads. I picked 1.6% because I'm not entirely convinced Excel is exactly 1.5% Glut until someone pulls out a spectrometer (and the difference between 1.5% and 1.6% is not significant), the Indian poster we cite as a chemist and attribute 1.5% to has some non-chemist-like posts in the rest of his history (not that I'm a chemist), and Azoo's and EasyLife's recommended dosing are in the same ballpark

But this is the second request since last night to move to 1.5%. So you've got it.

Thanks for catching the 5% bug!

Also added Metricide 28 on Joraan's request.

Have fun!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi wet,

It is an excellent first effort, and for those that don't have the ability or inclination to use an Excel based calculator it will be an excellent asset.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks,
-Roy


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## wet

Forgive the cross post, but here's an attempt at a quicker and simpler tool.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi wet,

Much improved!


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## Aquaticz

Just wanted to report back after 41/2 months no problems noted by using the activator that accompanied the Metricide. However next time I will not uslast time it. I had purchased the metricide 28. I see Tex gal picked up the 14%. Is one better than the other>

BTW between EI, good "stuff*and metricide......my plants look great


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Aquaticz,

I'm always glad to hear that things are improving and / or going well for another. I found there are no "miracle cures" for algae, however that addition of Excel or Glut is definitely part of my overall nutrient and maintenance program.

When I start to see algae becoming an issue in my tanks it is typically a result of light (too much), nutrients (to much or lack thereof), and not doing adequate water changes. If I am reasonably conscientious about my maintenance I am usually rewarded.

Glad to hear things are going well for you.


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## wet

Just got turned onto this link: great post with formulas from Scorpio over at AquaPetz, who operates with resulting ppm in the aquarium instead of the % in solution: http://aquapetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=102

I like this thinking as it brings us to thinking of Glut as yet another supplement (like trace dosing, or macro dosing, or whatever). For example, imagine a calculator that let you dose 1 bottle cap (5mL) into any size aquarium for the target Glut dose. I wonder if folks have accepted Glut to the point this is useful and not confusing, though.


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## vuslat

Hii.Turkey has 50% with 2% Glutaraldehyde. Which one should I buy? How should I use? To kill all the algae? Would you help? Thank you.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi vuslat,

Welcome to APC! To avoid confusion I would recommend you purchase the 2% solution at first since it is very close to the 1.5% concentration in Seachem Excel.

Normal Dosing:
On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 4 mL for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 4 mL for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day.

For Algacide Properties:
On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 4 mL for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 8 mL for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily.

Remember some plants do not respond well to the use of Excel; especially Vallisneria and Ceratophyllum. Please report back with your results!

BTW, my wife and I really enjoyed Turkey when we visited there; especially the wonderful, friendly, people and spectacular history!


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## vuslat

Thank you for your interest. Dosing of CO2 do plants in the tank. Tank has got moss species. I use the to kill hair algae. To kill algae? What is the effect to Excel? Greetings from Turkey.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi vuslat,

If you decide to use Excel/Glut I would start with the "normal dosing" level. Some moss species do not do well with Excel/glutaraldehyde (just like the Vallisneria and Ceratophyllum). I have lost moss species even when dosing Excel/glut even at the "normal dosing" level.

Have you tried other methods to deal with your hair algae? I find that if I reduce my lighting period, increase my 50% water changes to 2 or 3 times a week, and add a Siamese Algae Eater (Crossocheilus oblongus) I can usually get hair algae under control.


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## vuslat

I've tried all the methods. There was hair algae in the Java Moss, Taivan Moss, Sigapore Moss aquarium plants. I did all the solutions, but 3 months is not lost. Not all iron and micro trace element fertilizers. Only used for NPK. The values used are as follows.Excel local practice is dying plants. Try GLUT.Ecxel effective or glutaraldehyde?

My tank measurements:
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Phosphate: 1 ppm
Potassium: 20 ppm
Lighting: 4 * 30 watts Slyvania Aquastar + Grolux
Lighting Time: 8 hours (4 +3 +4)
Tank temperature: 25 C


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi vuslat,

If you are asking me if Seachem Excel and glutaraldehyde (glut) are basically the same - the answer is yes.

Hair algae in moss is very difficult to eliminate. Sometimes the best thing to do is start new moss clumps using small quantities of your existing moss that you clean well to remove all the hair algae.


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## arjosh

I have question to those who use glutaraldehyde. Friend of mine is trying to get rid of BBA in his 40 gal tank and dosing Metricide 28. Nothing seems to change, he is dosing 20 ml every day, nothing at. BBA is still there. So does this thing really works as Excel? I took 1 sp. from his tank and now is in 20 gal tank with no other plants. I also tried dosing the same amount. 20 ml in 20 high tank. Still BBA is there? so what are we missing here? 1 thing I can think about is Instead of using RI/DO water we use plain NYC super soft water? Could this be the cause?

According to Wets calculator this is the mix ratio.

500ml container- 300ml of metricide and 200ml of RO/DI water?

While dosing this stuff, do I need to turn off water movement. filter, powerhead etc? This Metricide gallon was purchased a month ago, so i don't think it expired already and is stored in cool dark place under the counter. 

Not only BBA, which is tough but also does nothing to GSA as well in his tank. If you need further more info. I can provide.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi arjosh,

First, the calculations are correct. Metricide 28 is 2.5% glutaraldehyde and adding 200 ml of water to 300 ml of Metricide 28 will give you a 1.5% (Excel strength) solution.

In my experience GSA is not effected by Glutaraldehyde, adjusting my phosphate dosage seems to be showing some progress with that.

BBA is tough stuff! Typically I dose the Seachem recommended 'Initial dose' at water changes and 2X the recommended 'Daily dose'. If there is a heavy outbreak on plants I remove any leaves that are heavily affected. Any hardscapes, heaters, etc I remove from the 'scape and treat with 50/50 bleach/H2O and then scrub with a brush and use a very heavy treatment of Seachem Prime to nuetralize the bleach. For stubborn patches in the tank I turn of all filtration so the water becomes still and then "spot treat" the heavy areas 'painting' them with 1.5% glut and an oral dosing syringe. I am careful when 'spot treating' not to exceed the recommended ml dosage per gallon.

After the BBA dies then my SAE move in and eat the dead 'tufts' leaving me BBA free!


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## arjosh

Hey Roy

I understand all above you mentioned, My question is Will Metricide gives you the same effect of Excel ONLY if Diluted in RO/DI Water or it doesn't matter if its Tap water? In my observation this Metricide is less effective than Excel as I bought home a stem of Persicaria Ruby from a friend and dosed 20ml of metricide diluted of course in 20 gal tank but no other plants...Still BBA is in the stem.

When I used Excel a year or so ago for some BBA in Hygrophila sp. 'araguaia' leaves it (Excel) took care of BBA in 10 minutes turning it in Pink color and gone in few days...Shrimps took care of the rest.


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## Aquaticz

I mix according to wets calculator
I dose like so - everyday

40 gal - 20 ml
75 gal - 40 ml
55 gal - 30 ml
26 gal - 15 ml
BBA is nasty - best way I found was to apply with a syringe when doing a water changes. So when 50 % of the water is out I dose the usual amount plus another 10 ML directly to the BBA once all filters power heads etc are off & the tank has zero current. I try to bathe the area in a cloud of glut for at least 10 minutes. The next day its pink  I have one particular set up that has more BBA than I like but I am sure it has to do with circulation - which is one of the reasons i am going to re scape that tank.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi arjosh,

It does not matter if you dilute the Metricide in RO/DI or tap water the effect will be the same.

As for why a treatment may have worked one time and not the next has way too many variables to analyze including concentration, temperature, and health of the BBA prior to treatment just to name a few.


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## arjosh

Aquaticz said:


> I mix according to wets calculator
> I dose like so - everyday
> 
> 40 gal - 20 ml
> 75 gal - 40 ml
> 55 gal - 30 ml
> 26 gal - 15 ml
> BBA is nasty - best way I found was to apply with a syringe when doing a water changes. So when 50 % of the water is out I dose the usual amount plus another 10 ML directly to the BBA once all filters power heads etc are off & the tank has zero current. I try to bathe the area in a cloud of glut for at least 10 minutes. The next day its pink  I have one particular set up that has more BBA than I like but I am sure it has to do with circulation - which is one of the reasons i am going to re scape that tank.


Aren't you over over dosing? 
Tips from Wets calculator Site...

-Common dosing is 1mL/10gal of this solution daily or every other day.
-Dose 5mL/10gal after water changes.
-Many folks double or triple the daily dose as an algaecide.


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## Aquaticz

All I can say is that it works for me


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Zapins

Without paging through every post I found a calculator for gluteraldehyde dosing.

http://rota.la/glut/


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## Tattooedfool83

Where are people getting the metricide?


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## Zapins

The interwebs I assume. Amazon and ebay?


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## Tattooedfool83

Does it matter which metricide?


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## Aquaticz

Get 14 day at dealmed 
They are usually the least expensive. 
Then use wets calculator. Also online just google

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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