# submeged crypts



## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

Now i have read some things that say not all crypts can be kept under water for long periods of time! Is this a true statement? and if so are there many that cant be kept under water for a long time? because i love crypts but i don't particularly enjoy an emersed setup right now. i like growing them under water where i can see their real beauty at least that's what i think ha!


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

there are way too many to worry about it. i keep all underwater and have like 20ish types...some of them are: wendtii (several variants), becketii, usteriana, walkerii, lutea, parva, nurii...im on vacation and can´t remember other names lol but anyways crypts are my favorites and very atractive plant so try them and enjoy them!!


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 19, 2008)

The most common species will do fine underwater indefinitely. Some of the rarer blackwater species (_C. bangkaensis, C. minima_, etc.) don't do as well underwater for long periods of time.


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

legomaniac89 said:


> The most common species will do fine underwater indefinitely. Some of the rarer blackwater species (_C. bangkaensis, C. minima_, etc.) don't do as well underwater for long periods of time.


Oh so mostly the black water species are the ones that dont like being submerged for a long time..hmm i guess ill just have to ask before i buy, but I'm mostly interested in the not so common species of crypts thats why i ask.



ddavila06 said:


> there are way too many to worry about it. i keep all underwater and have like 20ish types...some of them are: wendtii (several variants), becketii, usteriana, walkerii, lutea, parva, nurii...im on vacation and can´t remember other names lol but anyways crypts are my favorites and very atractive plant so try them and enjoy them!!


ya now that makes me a little more happy! crypts are some of my fav also! most all of them are crazy!

well thanks for the advice. i guess ill just have to keep researching on each specific crypt. its just hard to track down info on these less common species. Like for say Cryptocoryne auriculata i can barely find any info on the internet. now does anyone know if Cryptocoryne auriculata can be grown submerged? thanks all!


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

A problem with growing crypts submerged is that they _don't like each other_. More technically: they compete for the same nutrients which they take from the same water and some are better competitors than others. I have a _C. wendtii _"green" which is doing very poorly and gets smaller all the time. This should be one of the easiest crypts to grow submerged! But obviously, in my aquarium, there is a stiff competition from fast growing _C. affinis _and _C. usteriana_. Some other species are standing this (more or less), but not all and i have already given up on _C. parva _and a _C._ x. _willisii_ in the same aquarium.

I supect that they are also emitting some substances which are reducing the growth of other Crypto's, chemical warfare if you want. But I have not yet found any information about this.

My guess is that the outcome is probably different in each aquarium, depending on water chemistry, nutrient availability in water and bottom, water current, light and temperature. But if you plan on a diverse collection in a normal aquarium: this might not go as well as you hope for and you might loose some of your most prized plants.

----------------------

Apart from this: do you like rare plants because they are rare or because they are beautifull or because of the challenge to grow something less known and potentially very difficult? If _C. wendtii_ or _C. becketii_ would be very rare: would you desperately search for it?

I personally like to maintain some Crypts in my aquarium that are not easy to get in shops, mainly because they are difficult to replace when i lose them, but also because they can represent a piece of "aquarium-history" (in case of _C. affinis_), but I find the common species practically equally worthwile and can't wait for _C. wendtii _to start flowering!


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## orchidnutz (Mar 28, 2011)

illustrator said:


> A problem with growing crypts submerged is that they _don't like each other_. More technically: they compete for the same nutrients which they take from the same water and some are better competitors than others. I have a _C. wendtii _"green" which is doing very poorly and gets smaller all the time. This should be one of the easiest crypts to grow submerged! But obviously, in my aquarium, there is a stiff competition from fast growing _C. affinis _and _C. usteriana_. Some other species are standing this (more or less), but not all and i have already given up on _C. parva _and a _C._ x. _willisii_ in the same aquarium.
> 
> I supect that they are also emitting some substances which are reducing the growth of other Crypto's, chemical warfare if you want. But I have not yet found any information about this.


Over the course of my crypt growing years, I have observed the results of the allelotoxins that some crypts distribute. I don't know if this is a common occurrence or not, but I do not seem to be able to grow crypts and vals anywhere near each other. The vals simply start to 'fade away' even though they were taking over the tank BC (before crypts)[smilie=l: Whether that is a result of direct competition for nutrients or the result of allelopathy, I'm not sure but my plants are well fertilized with a mixture of cow manure, sheep manure, red clay, topsoil and iron filings, so I would suspect allelopathy.
From time to time I have also noticed that some crypts don't like close proximity with other crypt species. I can't really remember which species now because at the time I just thought that I had put a species somewhere it didn't like, so I moved it. It wasn't 'til many years later that I realized what was going on.
Perhaps this is fodder for a new crypt thread. "Allelopathy Amongst Crypt Species." Perhaps this could save us all time and plants if we shared our experiences.
Mr. (Ms.) Moderator, what do you think?:canada:


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## Kai Witte (Jan 30, 2006)

*Re: submerged crypts*



> The most common species will do fine underwater indefinitely. Some of the rarer blackwater species (_C. bangkaensis, C. minima_, etc.) don't do as well underwater for long periods of time.


That's a myth. Actually, many blackwater species do prefer to grow submersed.

If you find them not growing well submersed, your conditions are not suitable.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...6383-submersed-culture-blackwater-crypts.html


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## Kai Witte (Jan 30, 2006)

> i guess ill just have to keep researching on each specific crypt.


Yes, that's definitely the way to go, especially with the rare crypts. Note that populations from different localities may have distinct growing requirements/preferences - it's not getting boring soon... 



> its just hard to track down info on these less common species.


Just keep asking here. 



> Like for say Cryptocoryne auriculata i can barely find any info on the internet. now does anyone know if Cryptocoryne auriculata can be grown submerged?


Yes. However, this species is quite finicky (depending on the population - most are growing predominantly emersed in nature). Moreover, it's a fairly slow grower and not difficult to melt. It's not a species that I would like to see plants collected from nature coming into unexperienced hands. If you can get propagated plants from cultivation, try to establish this species in emersed culture and start experimenting with submersed culture when you have surplus runners.


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## Kai Witte (Jan 30, 2006)

> From time to time I have also noticed that some crypts don't like close proximity with other crypt species. I can't really remember which species now because at the time I just thought that I had put a species somewhere it didn't like, so I moved it. It wasn't 'til many years later that I realized what was going on.
> Perhaps this is fodder for a new crypt thread. "Allelopathy Amongst Crypt Species." Perhaps this could save us all time and plants if we shared our experiences.


I would be interested to hear examples in detail.

I usually have my crypts growing very closely and haven't experienced any obvious signs of allelopathy yet. If I noted any "problems" at all, these seemed to come down to competition for light or nutrients IMHO.


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

illustrator said:


> A problem with growing crypts submerged is that they _don't like each other_. More technically: they compete for the same nutrients which they take from the same water and some are better competitors than others. I have a _C. wendtii _"green" which is doing very poorly and gets smaller all the time. This should be one of the easiest crypts to grow submerged! But obviously, in my aquarium, there is a stiff competition from fast growing _C. affinis _and _C. usteriana_. Some other species are standing this (more or less), but not all and i have already given up on _C. parva _and a _C._ x. _willisii_ in the same aquarium.
> 
> I supect that they are also emitting some substances which are reducing the growth of other Crypto's, chemical warfare if you want. But I have not yet found any information about this.
> 
> ...


ya thats crazy I have never heard of such a thing. and i say that because i have so many crypts (6 different ones) and i have found that everything in there grows extremely well (except for the c. prava but i have this in other tanks and it doesn't do much). But i do agree with both of yall that they do compete for the same nutrients so that I do understand. hmm very interesting that they would do such things as to mess with other plants like i was noticing that my vals are starting to not look so good and there right beside a large clump of crypts! ugh that sux! but thanx for the info! oh and I like the different looking species that you don't normally see around like I enjoy the ones with the "tiger stripes" on them and the different molting that each location leaves. But I do enjoy trying to grow the more difficult species as well! And yes i will usually always look for different crypts! 









_it is hot in my house today I usually run my temp. @ 77F_



orchidnutz said:


> Over the course of my crypt growing years, I have observed the results of the allelotoxins that some crypts distribute. I don't know if this is a common occurrence or not, but I do not seem to be able to grow crypts and vals anywhere near each other. The vals simply start to 'fade away' even though they were taking over the tank BC (before crypts) Whether that is a result of direct competition for nutrients or the result of allelopathy, I'm not sure but my plants are well fertilized with a mixture of cow manure, sheep manure, red clay, topsoil and iron filings, so I would suspect allelopathy.
> From time to time I have also noticed that some crypts don't like close proximity with other crypt species. I can't really remember which species now because at the time I just thought that I had put a species somewhere it didn't like, so I moved it. It wasn't 'til many years later that I realized what was going on.
> Perhaps this is fodder for a new crypt thread. "Allelopathy Amongst Crypt Species." Perhaps this could save us all time and plants if we shared our experiences.


hmm so you say the same thing. I guess I will have to re-think my grouping and growing of crypts! but my vals seem to be fading also ugh! I'm going to have to move them soonb. but they did well in the same tank when they were not next to the crypts but no less than 6-9" away from crypts. I don't know I have never had much trouble growing crypts near each other but I will also give them a little Flourite black sand every few months and/or some Flourish Root tabs just for some extra nutrient for the roots since I hear they don't absorb many nutrients from there leaves.

_here are some more i have growing really close. _










_Crypt. Retospirals, lots of Wendtii brown and green, and some c. lucens mixed together._










Wow i have a lot to think about haha!


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

Kai Witte said:


> Yes, that's definitely the way to go, especially with the rare crypts. Note that populations from different localities may have distinct growing requirements/preferences - it's not getting boring soon...
> 
> Just keep asking here.
> 
> Yes. However, this species is quite finicky (depending on the population - most are growing predominantly emersed in nature). Moreover, it's a fairly slow grower and not difficult to melt. It's not a species that I would like to see plants collected from nature coming into unexperienced hands. If you can get propagated plants from cultivation, try to establish this species in emersed culture and start experimenting with submersed culture when you have surplus runners.


Oh yes i will look up any species before trying to obtain it just due to the fact i don't want to see it melt! ha..now I wouldn't say that I am "unexperienced" with crypts the only thing that I don't have any experience with is submersed crypts but that's my next step I'm going to take here very soon! oh really? wow thanks for the info on that species! yes that's what I would do with it were I to obtain a plant of it!



> I would be interested to hear examples in detail.
> 
> I usually have my crypts growing very closely and haven't experienced any obvious signs of allelopathy yet. If I noted any "problems" at all, these seemed to come down to competition for light or nutrients IMHO.


Yes i would love to see some examples also! because I usually grow crypts compact and tight to each other. thanx for your experience!


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## orchidnutz (Mar 28, 2011)

Kai Witte said:


> I would be interested to hear examples in detail.
> 
> I usually have my crypts growing very closely and haven't experienced any obvious signs of allelopathy yet. If I noted any "problems" at all, these seemed to come down to competition for light or nutrients IMHO.


Hi there Kai. I apologize for my lack of memory regarding the inter-species allelopapathy. Over the years I have changed my growing strategy so I do not see this anymore. Now I grow my crypts in separate containers with only a layer of sand over them as a topdressing so that the edges of the containers don't show. I started doing this 'just in case' when I started growing _Crypt. cordata grabowskii_ with other crypts instead of growing them on their own. These were simply to scarce to take any chances of losing them.
I suggested earlier that a new permanent thread be started on this topic. As I am new to this forum perhaps someone else could start it as a way of doing a multi-year study on allelopathy in crypts. The information would then be available for all if allelopathy is found on an inter-species level. This would certainly aid in planning for anyone doing aquarium beautiful planting. What does everyone think?:canada:


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Sounds like a good idea. Start a thread on allelopathy in crypts, and I will make it a stickey. Let's have experiments with pictures, such as two crypts grown together versus each grown separately. To reduce effects of crowding, try to have the same plant biomass in each tank something like this:
Tank A---2 plants of species A
Tank B---2 plants of species B
Tank C---1 plant of species A and 1 plant of species B


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## chad320 (Mar 30, 2010)

sketch804 said:


>


certainly not to derail, but I was sold the same crypt as the one with the long skinny reddish leaves? Mine was sold to me as Balansae 'red' and im wondering if thats what you call yours?

As for chemical warfare, I have about 30 different crypts all in the same tank and havent seen any effects on each other at all. IDK about other plant species but crypt to crypt doesnt seem to matter much.


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

chad320 said:


> certainly not to derail, but I was sold the same crypt as the one with the long skinny reddish leaves? Mine was sold to me as Balansae 'red' and im wondering if thats what you call yours?
> 
> As for chemical warfare, I have about 30 different crypts all in the same tank and havent seen any effects on each other at all. IDK about other plant species but crypt to crypt doesnt seem to matter much.


yes chad320 thats what it was sold to me as also. C. Balansae but it was just sold under a regular form. apparently i read that there are 2 different forms of this plant red and green. But truthfully its only been growing in my tank for a little bit. its only um 2 months old or so..just remember these get BIG! ha


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

So i don't know..looking at this tank with all the crypts they seem to be growing nicely and right next to each other!!








wow!
heres the guys fourm on it-> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/41814-bharadas-120g-crypt-tank.html

leaves a lot to desire ha!


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

oh i have many crypts grwing into each other in different tanks and they do well...once in a while when they really start taking over the other i separate and rearrange the area but takes long for that...just buy whatever u like or feel interested in and try them! i mean, whom here has bought every single plant with a plan ahead of time! not me, and i have killed a few - lot of plants due to unproper conditions but i keep on trying so thats your key.


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

moved to the new "sticky" subject


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

sketch804 said:


> yes chad320 thats what it was sold to me as also. C. Balansae but it was just sold under a regular form. apparently i read that there are 2 different forms of this plant red and green. But truthfully its only been growing in my tank for a little bit. its only um 2 months old or so..just remember these get BIG! ha


There are actually many forms of _C. crispatula_, the ones with narrow leaves are generally known as var. _balansae_. Over here plants are sold as:

C. balansae "Green"
C. balansae "Red"
C. balansae "Brown"
C. balansae "Red Lucanas"
C. balansae "Brown Lucanas"

All of which slightly differ from each other. Note that the tradenames are "outdated" in that they use _C. balansae_ as a full species rather than the narrow-leaved varieties of _C. crispatula_.

And yes, they get very tall, but because of their narrow form and the fact that each plant has only a few leaves, they need a lot of time to form anything like a dense vegetation. In my "no-name green one", daughter-plants don't show up besides the mother-plant, but more often some 15-20 cm away.


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## chad320 (Mar 30, 2010)

@ illustrator, do you have all of these or pics of some? Here is a link to my crypt tank. You'll also see many (30?) varieties of crypts growing side by side without problems...http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...60-chad320s-65g-october-rain-new-pics-14.html


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

no, I don't have all because then I would have to plant them in pots to keep them separated (my aquarium is more landscaped and emersed they can be large). I have "Brown Lucanas" and a green one which originates from an introduced population at a thermal spring in Austria.


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

illustrator said:


> no, I don't have all because then I would have to plant them in pots to keep them separated (my aquarium is more landscaped and emersed they can be large). I have "Brown Lucanas" and a green one which originates from an introduced population at a thermal spring in Austria.


Wow that's crazy that you have such a rare plant! do you have any pix Id love to see it! i love seeing how different plants adapt to a new environment! good luck with that one i hope you can get many runners! ha..wow i never knew that there were that many different types of that variation!

And chad320 that is a lot of different varieties of crypts in your tank! nice job i like seeing the "not so common" crypts growing in peoples tanks and not emersed! though i understand why people do it i just like to see them underwater!


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## chad320 (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks Sketch. I prefer them submerged but sometimes they need that emergent boost. I want to create a tank like the one that ive got that you can simply drain the water and let them go emersed for the summer without having to change the layout of the tank at all. Just drop the water and refill it when the summer is over.


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

chad320 said:


> Thanks Sketch. I prefer them submerged but sometimes they need that emergent boost. I want to create a tank like the one that ive got that you can simply drain the water and let them go emersed for the summer without having to change the layout of the tank at all. Just drop the water and refill it when the summer is over.


Wow now that sounds really sweet! that's a very nice concept! i hope it works out for ya i would love to see some pix when you finally do make it!! now i have seen a similar concept used on a reef tank in THF where the guy did the same but was replicating the tides where corals are emersed for a period of time and it turned out GREAT! great idea!


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

well i just recieved a crypt from GG called Cryptocoryne Nurii and wow it has to be one of my fav crypts so far! so i tried a little something and one tank its in is stuffed with crypts and running CO2 and the other one is in a tank with med light and only a couple small crypts and one large on and no CO2. so we will see which one grows faster. both pretty much have the same substrate Flourite Black sand and both tanks have been established for years.









cryptocoryne nurii leaf with nail clippers for size reference. 

Or if these crypts grow at all. heh Im going to keep my fingers crossed!

thanks agian GG!


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## chad320 (Mar 30, 2010)

Hey sketch, I have these in similar situations. Mine seem to prefer the higher lighting. When placed in lower lighting the leaves turned green. They keep the striping and the red petiole. They also grow slower and shorter. Those are in flourite and Eco complete over MTS. The others in high light have kept their color, grow fairly fast, and have sent out alot of runners in the last few months. These are grown in aquasoil.


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## sketch804 (May 27, 2007)

chad320 said:


> Hey sketch, I have these in similar situations. Mine seem to prefer the higher lighting. When placed in lower lighting the leaves turned green. They keep the striping and the red petiole. They also grow slower and shorter. Those are in flourite and Eco complete over MTS. The others in high light have kept their color, grow fairly fast, and have sent out alot of runners in the last few months. These are grown in aquasoil.


So chad320 what temperature do you keep them in?? mine are in 77 and other is in 75F water. both survived so we will c once they start growing more. but i think your right because my lower light, no co2 tank has less growth but same size leaves as the higher light one. so i dunno time will tell. thanks very much for the info.!


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## Justindew (Apr 15, 2011)

illustrator said:


> A problem with growing crypts submerged is that they _don't like each other_. More technically: they compete for the same nutrients which they take from the same water and some are better competitors than others. I have a _C. wendtii _"green" which is doing very poorly and gets smaller all the time. This should be one of the easiest crypts to grow submerged! But obviously, in my aquarium, there is a stiff competition from fast growing _C. affinis _and _C. usteriana_. Some other species are standing this (more or less), but not all and i have already given up on _C. parva _and a _C._ x. _willisii_ in the same aquarium.
> 
> I supect that they are also emitting some substances which are reducing the growth of other Crypto's, chemical warfare if you want. But I have not yet found any information about this.
> 
> ...


Can you not just test your water to see what nutrients they are competing for and overdoes that nutrient like crazy?


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

One thing is that I don't think that nutrients are limiting to such an extend that I lose some "easy" species. Another thing is that it is relatively easy to test what is in the water, but not so easy to test what is in the soil. 

I loose wendtii which are planted in the aquarium bottom, but another wendtii variety is doing great, this one is planted in a thin layer of pure gravel (no other substrate), in a small tray which is hanging on the hind glass of the aquarium. So it gets all nutrients frrom the same water in which the other wendtii's are not doing well! The difference is that it's roots are not in contact with any other crypt!


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## Justindew (Apr 15, 2011)

illustrator said:


> One thing is that I don't think that nutrients are limiting to such an extend that I lose some "easy" species. Another thing is that it is relatively easy to test what is in the water, but not so easy to test what is in the soil.
> 
> I loose wendtii which are planted in the aquarium bottom, but another wendtii variety is doing great, this one is planted in a thin layer of pure gravel (no other substrate), in a small tray which is hanging on the hind glass of the aquarium. So it gets all nutrients frrom the same water in which the other wendtii's are not doing well! The difference is that it's roots are not in contact with any other crypt!


So it is not just a nutrient problem it is the other crypt actually letting something off that is killing the other crypt?


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

Let's continue here, so we can find things later on:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/cryptocorynes/78165-allelopathy-crypts.html


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