# New dirted 10 gallon



## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

A week ago I started a 10 gallon tank with a MGOCPM substrate (just over 1 inch), covered by a layer of sand (about 1.5 inch). Light is Finnex Planted+. Filter is a small eheim 100 power filter. I started planting right away:
- sagittaria subulata 
- java fern (on driftwood)
- anubia narrow leaf (on driftwood)

I should add that the water is on the soft side here, pH around 6.8, KH 40, GH 30. Knowing this, I keep a little crushed coral in the filter.

This is a first tank after a few years out of the hobby, so it's starting from scratch. I am using Prime to treat the water, and Stability to help with cycling. Water usually reads 0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrate.

Because of the ammonia readings, I have been doing 30-40% water changes daily. Could the ammonia reading be caused by Prime? I am using the API master kit for testing.

Plants have been not so happy since day one, I noticed right away some yellowing of the leaf tips (particularly with Sag. Sub), also Anubia's leaves look like the veins are popping out a bit. I attached a couple of pics.

My previous planted tanks were using some simplified EI, so this is new to me. There is zero algae in the tank. My reaction would be to start some ferts, but I'm though that the soil substrate should provide the nutrients in a dirted tank?


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## AKnickolai (Nov 30, 2007)

I use prime all the time, it will not cause false high readings. It does have a chemical component that "locks" ammonia. I'm not a chemist, but this supposedly alters the chemical composition of ammonia so that it is much lest toxic to the fish, but still usable by the bacteria. It is possible that you have extremely large amounts of ammonia leaching into the tank and the use of Prime is locking it to this less harmful compound. If that's the case, you do have an ammonia problem and the prime is keeping your fish alive.

Did you sift and rinse the MGOCPM prior to putting in the tank? That stuff is extremely pulpy and has TON of organics in it, these organics rot and cause real problems in a planted tank if they are not removed. MGOCPM is only widely recommended because it is available everywhere and does not contain toxins to the fish. IMO, MGOCPM should be sifted/rinsed to separate the woody organics prior to use as a substrate (preferably mineralized), failing to do so causes issues. 

On the plants, those are all slow-ish growing - low nutrient use. Consider adding some hardy stem plants or at least floaters like frogbit. These will grow faster and consume the nutrients out of the water column quicker helping with stability. Floaters are the best choice here because that have access to the atmosphere and will not compete with the other plants for carbon in the tank.

You mention the parameters of your tap water, what are the parameters in your tank? Even with the coral and such a low kH, it is possible your PH is crashing. I have similar water and have seen that issue before.

Let us know about the tank water parameters and soil prep and I'm sure folks will be able to offer better insight.


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks for replying. No, I have not rinsed the MG. Yesterday I did a 50% water change, and this morning I have 1 ppm ammonia.

I've been feeding the very few fish very sparingly, and I only have one dwarf gourami and a four neons.

The parameters in the tank pretty much match my tap water. Water gets brownish after a day or two, also a reason for the pwc I've been doing. I'm not sure how much that is because of the driftwood vs the MG substrate.

I added some Bacopa M. stems yesterday, hopefully that will help.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

MGOC is very high in ammonia. There is a huge thread about mineralizing it on here and lots of info in the suitable soils thread. Even with the plants, the tank will need to cycle. I always feel it is best to allow the bacteria to grow before adding fish, but since you added fish already, water changes are important to keep nitrogen levels in the safe zone. Water sprite, frogs bit, other floater work well to suck up excess ammonia as well.


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## AKnickolai (Nov 30, 2007)

Since you did not rinse or mineralize, there will be a long period of decomposition. This can lead to large pockets of anaerobic H2S producing bacteria - very bad. I make my own soil mixtures as I live in an area with good mineralized soil a few feet below grade.

Someone else who has used MGOCPM will be able to better help you proceed. Since the tank is so new and not cycled, I would consider starting over with some mineralized dirt or fertilizer free top soil (still rinse the tops soil well, all the floating stuff and wood you don't want). I feel like it would save you much trouble in the long run.

Good call on the Bacopa. However you proceed, you'll be doing a cycle with fish. Keeping the tank fairly heavily planted will help. I still recommend you get some floating plants in there.


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

I didn't realize the soil was so rich in ammonia. I clearly should have waited to introduce fish. I was hoping that seachem Stability would help with introducing good bacteria as well. Does the stuff actually work?

You guys make a good point about floating plants, I just added some frogbit from my lfs. What do you think about the lighting, is a Finnex Planted+ too much for a 10 gallon without CO2?

I'll keep up with the water changes.


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## AKnickolai (Nov 30, 2007)

I believe all cycling aids are snake oil, but I've never tried them either. I like Seachem as a company, so maybe it will help? 

See how it goes with the light. I have a 30" version of the planted + that would be okay for a dirt tank alone. In general, the best advice for a starting planted tank is to plant heavily. If you're getting algae problems in the well planted tank, you can always raise the light off the tank some if you suspect that is the cause.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I have the same light on a tall 29 g and it works fine. I have it on about 4 hours in morning turn it off around noon and turn it back on around 6 until I go to bed, so around 8 hours total with a long rest period to allow the water to absorb more c02. It also helps with algae problems. If I were you I would read the rest of the threads in this section and think about getting Dr Walstad's book. You shouldn't get anaerobic soil if you have lots of plants, especially the ones with extensive root systems to help break up the soil. Malaysian trumpet snails are awesome too as they are like earth worms for the aquarium.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Malaysian Trumpet Snails i highly recommend, especially with sand. Poke your substrate every day with a stick to release H2S from anaerobic bacteria. If you can raise the fixture then that will help with algae in the future, since there's so much Co2 right now from all the decomposition keeping algae at bay.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

Add a few Malaysian Trumpet snails and lots of crypts. Floating frogbits may also help sucking up the excess nutrients.

You can get Mayalsian snails for free from Petsmart; just ask them if you can take a few "pest snails". They don't know that it's called Malaysian trumpet snail.


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

arul said:


> Add a few Malaysian Trumpet snails and lots of crypts. Floating frogbits may also help sucking up the excess nutrients.
> 
> You can get Mayalsian snails for free from Petsmart; just ask them if you can take a few "pest snails". They don't know that it's called Malaysian trumpet snail.


OK, I will get some MTS. Not so easy as going to Petsmart. Most box stores in Canada are sort of a downsized version of their us counterpart, anything even slightly out of mainstream they don't stock.

This morning again 1 ppm ammonia, but the water looks a lot clearer than in the last few days. Another pwc coming.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I would get MTS from someone in the for sale and trade forum here. I have never seen mts at any pet junk stores in the us.


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

pandragon said:


> I would get MTS from someone in the for sale and trade forum here. I have never seen mts at any pet junk stores in the us.


Yes, that's what I'll probably do, get them online. Here's a pic of the tank today, after another 50% wc.


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## arul (Mar 11, 2014)

pandragon said:


> I would get MTS from someone in the for sale and trade forum here. I have never seen mts at any pet junk stores in the us.


When I went to Petsmart to buy a Nerite snail, I asked their "expert" if he had any MTS for sale. He had no idea what MTS was, so I expanded it to "Malaysian Trumpet Snail", and he still had no clue. While walking to the checkout, I saw a small tank with hundreds of MTS. I called the guy and said, "Hey you said you didn't have Malaysian trumpet snails, but there are hundreds here." Then he said, "Oh those are pest snails. You need those??" He gave them to me for free. At the checkout, he told the cashier that I was doing a favour by taking the pest snails away.

But yeah, I agree with getting the MTS from the forum members or online.

luca61: If you were in Virginia, I could give you a dozen or so MTS and ramshorns.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

That is awesome! The only snails I see at petsmart are ramshorn and regular pond/bladder snails. The pond snails tend to have appetite for healthy plant growth.


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

You have ramshorns at your PetSmart!? I went in to get some of those, or pond snails. They only have Nerites, and Mysteries, here.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

They only sell mystery snails, but I have seen a few ramshorns on the plants and at the bottom of some of the tanks.


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

I wanted to post an update. Tank is about 4 months in. The plants are filling in nicely.
Almost no algae now - there was a little of green spot algae for a couple of months, but they are gone for the time being. PWC every 3-4 weeks, very easy to manage.



















edit: added one pic


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## qwe123 (Jun 15, 2011)

Looks great! And you didn't change out the substrate or anything, right? This is the product of using straight MGOCPM?


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks! Substrate is still Miracle Grow plus sand. About a month in I added some floaters (Salvinia), which I think was the turning point. Limnophila was a nice surprise: it came almost dead after a week of shipping, and in three months I'm throwing some out.


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Beautiful!! Looks like a CO2 injected tank! I'm impressed. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## luca61 (Oct 15, 2006)

GadgetGirl said:


> Beautiful!! Looks like a CO2 injected tank! I'm impressed.


Thank you. I am a little surprised too. My previous tanks were all planted with CO2, and they were a ton of work, and eventually had to go. After a long break, I started to look at alternatives like EI.  Seeing how little work this 10 gallon has been, my wife agreed a large tank is in the cards.


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