# PH problem help



## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2005)

My 55 gallons Ph has decreased from 7.0 were It has always been to 6.6-6.4. The plants are thriving at this level but my fish are not ( my livebears are stressed ) the tetras, cories, bettas, shrimp and gouriami seem fine.
Tank has been running for year and a half
I do wkly WC my water PH is 7.6 out of the tap.
I do not use co2.
Fert of choice is Flourish once a week.
Lighting is 170 watts.
What would my best course of action be to stabilize my ph back to 7.0? I added sodium bicarbonate to bring the tank back up to 7.0.


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## Sully (Nov 11, 2005)

Hmm, maybe your fish are stressed because you keep altering the Ph with chemicals. If its coming out of the tap at 7.6, there must be something added besides normal ferts to be dropping the ph. The ph can normally drop/rise a bit also, once out of the tap. Even if it does drop, is it stable at 6.8 area? As long as it is in a consistant range you should be okay. The fish are probably reacting to the fact that the ph is constantly change verses staying low consistantly. 

Just my thoughts,

Sully


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## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2005)

*more ph info*

The only products I add to my water during a wc is proper ph 7.0 and stress coat , which I have done for over a year. The ph problem came in to play when I added more live plants. The live bearers (mollies, platys, swords, guppies)which prefer a ph from 7.0 to 7.8, are stressed. But the other fish which prefer the lower ph are fine. I need a buffer to equal things out if I am going to keep everyone in the tank happy.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Your tap water KH may have changed (lower). Lower KH will generally equal lower pH.

I'd re-measure your tap water pH, after letting it sit in a glass or something for 24 hours. Also measure your KH.

I don't think you need the Proper pH. I'd replace it with a dechlorinator like Prime or similar. Live bearers will do just fine in pH 6.4-6.6. What stress symptoms are you seeing?


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## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2005)

Laith said:


> Your tap water KH may have changed (lower). Lower KH will generally equal lower pH.
> 
> I'd re-measure your tap water pH, after letting it sit in a glass or something for 24 hours. Also measure your KH.
> 
> I don't think you need the Proper pH. I'd replace it with a dechlorinator like Prime or similar. Live bearers will do just fine in pH 6.4-6.6. What stress symptoms are you seeing?


I set a sample aside and will test it tomorrow after work. The livebearers especially the Sal fin mollies scales look ragged.


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## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2005)

I tested my ph in a seperate cup after 24 hours the ph read 6.6 but it started out at 7.6?? I do not have a kh kit I need to buy on ( I have never had on, was told by the lfs I did not need one ??)


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

kH usually determines the correct pH. For example, tap water that has sit out for 24 hours has 2-3ppm of CO2.

Did you add any driftwood to the tank?


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## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2005)

Raul-7 said:


> kH usually determines the correct pH. For example, tap water that has sit out for 24 hours has 2-3ppm of CO2.
> 
> Did you add any driftwood to the tank?


Not yet, I do have two volcanic rocks that have been in there for as long as I have had my tank set up. Could they cause a problem over time?


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

No, I don't think so. Volcanic rocks are usually neutral and inert; such as pumice, zeolite, etc. If they did have any affect, it most likely will be raising your pH, rather than lowering it. 

Maybe a faulty test kit?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Absolutely get rid of the proper pH stuff. There are very few harmless ways to alter pH in an aquarium. Fish that prefer 6.8 would be happier in a stable 7.6 than in a tank where the pH is bumping all around.

KH is a measure of the ability of the water to resist pH change when acids or bases are introduced. Water with a low KH (buffering ability) will show dramatic swings in pH when acid or base is added. Water with a high KH will show a much smaller pH change for the same quantity of added acid.

By far, the vast majority of buffering capacity in 'normal' aquarium water is provided by carbonate (CO3). This is what baking soda (NaHCO3) provides. In nature, water passes over/through limestone (CaCO3) which slowly dissolves and provides KH. The buffering capacity (and pH) of your tap water is a function of the water's travels on its way to your faucet.

In aquariums several things can produce acid. Many end products of metabolism (fish poop) contain organic molucules that are acidic. The most important acid producing substance is CO2. When dissolved in water, a small portion of CO2 becomes carbonic acid (H2CO3).

Your tapwater may have high amounts of dissolved CO2 which would lower the pH. If you let it sit out (think of soda that goes flat) the CO2 will dissipate and the pH will rise. Atmospheric CO2 is about 3-4 ppm, and the solution will eventually come to rest at this value.

Most commerical buffers are made of phosphate compounds. These can raise all hell with your water chemistry. They can also result in a most impressive variety of algae. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) buffers water to 8.4 so it is certainly not the ingredient in 'proper pH'. For most aquariums the only time you ever need to add a buffer is if the KH of your tap water is <4 degrees (or 70 ppm). If your tapwater has a low KH, the least harmful buffer than most people use is baking soda. My tap KH is <1 and I add 1 tsp per 10 gallons at water change time. This generally raises my pH a few tenths, but then I drop it back down again using CO2 injection.

I kept and bred fish for 25 years without ever once checking pH. I only check it now to measure my CO2 levels. One of the biggest scams in the whole industry is the sale of pH up and pH down products. As long as your KH is >4 I wouldn't even check it unless you're going to use CO2 injection for the plants. Now, if you're keeping african chiclids -- that's a bit of different story.

In fact, knowing the KH is much more important than knowing the pH. With very few exceptions, water with a high KH will be hard and alkaline, and water with a low pH will be soft and acidic. Since there isn't an easy way to lower KH (RO filters, using distilled water), you're usually stuck with what comes out of the tap.

As far as 'the guy at the LFS'.... Remeber, most of them aren't biologists, some of them have an interest in selling you lots of useless potions, and some of them are doing the best they can with limitted information. A very, very few are actually knowledgeable. Find that person and forget everyone else.


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## [email protected] (Jul 18, 2005)

*thanx*



guaiac_boy said:


> Absolutely get rid of the proper pH stuff. There are very few harmless ways to alter pH in an aquarium. Fish that prefer 6.8 would be happier in a stable 7.6 than in a tank where the pH is bumping all around.
> 
> KH is a measure of the ability of the water to resist pH change when acids or bases are introduced. Water with a low KH (buffering ability) will show dramatic swings in pH when acid or base is added. Water with a high KH will show a much smaller pH change for the same quantity of added acid.
> 
> ...


 Thank you


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