# Adjusting Softwater



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

_Below is a question I just received about adjusting tapwater that's too soft for livebearers and some plants. I'll reply afterwards in separate post._

Six months ago I inherited a 10 gallon tank stocked with 3 mollys and 4 platys, as well as a 55 gallon empty tank with filter, lights, etc. It wasn't long until the fish weren't doing very well and I discovered that my tap water has a ph of 7.8, KH of 2 and a GH of 3-4. On the advice of others, I started adding 1/2 baking soda, 1/2 tsp Marine salt and 1/2 tbs Epsom salt/5 gallons. And the fish started doing better, so I stayed with it.

In my efforts to educate myself on fish keeping, I came across your book and decided to start a low maintenance NPT in the 55 gallon tank (see stats below). I filled it using the baking soda/salt recipe noted above without fully understanding the implications of pH and KH on CO2. When the plants weren't growing well, I started adding liquid CO2 booster, which seems to help, but when I recently bought a high pH test kit, I found that the ph is 8.2.

I wanted to keep this simple, but I'm wondering if it I should change from liquid CO2 booster to adding CO2 gas to lower the pH a little. It would have to be a DIY set up, as pretty much anything else would be too expensive for me.

Also, I'm thinking that I should stop trying to raise the GH with the Epsom and Marine salts and start using MgSO4 and CaCl2 solutions as per your recommendation in your Aquatic Plant Central forum.

Lastly, am I crazy for trying to make this work considering my tap water limitations? Would it be better or easier to try to lower the pH of my water and keep species that like soft acidic water? I would greatly appreciate any advice you can offer.

Tank stats:

Submerged for 6 weeks, no visible algae

1" Miracle Gro Organic Garden soil mix
1" 2-3mm gravel

HOB Tetra tec pf500 filter, w/out sponge. It kicks up a lot of current, but not much surface disturbance as long as tank is kept topped off. I put a sponge on the intake in hopes of slowing it down a little, but I'm not sure it's doing any good.

T-5 HE (high efficiency) fluorescent fixture with 1 6500k bulb and 1 10,000k bulb, 28w/each on a 5-4-5 timer.

Current H2O parameters: pH 8.2; KH 6; GH 15; ammonia 0; nitrite 0; nitrate 40

Plants: 
3 4-5 leaf anubias, doing fairly well
3 5-6 leaf java fern doing fairly well
3 aponogeton which sprouted from bulbs and shot right to the surface. Doing very well with lots of surface leaves and constant blooming
1 crinum thalium, sprouted from bulb trying desperately to reach the surface
some java moss, doing ok
2 stems yellow and 3 stems green cabomba, doing quite poorly, but slightly better since addition of liquid carbon
a few bits of slow growing elodea (possibly egeria?) left from original seems that mostly died off quite quickly
1 amazon sword doing ok since addition of liquid carbon
7 stems and several small floating water sprite added very recently.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

As I went through all this information, I don't think growing plants is hopeless and I would forget about the CO2, at least for now. (That 1" layer of organic soil will put plenty of CO2 into the water for at least 6 months.)

The glaring problem I see is that you are adding _way too much _Epsom salts. In your recipe, you are adding 1 _Tablespoon_ to your 55 gal tank. Epsom salt is MgSO4.7H2O. Plants and fish don't need that much magnesium. Plus, Epsom salt has as much sulfate as magnesium. That sulfate will build up in the water and enter your organic soil where it is converted to H2S (hydrogen sulfide). It will kill or harm plant roots limiting their growth.

I would not add any more Epsom salts. I would have started with 1/2 tsp (teaspoon) instead of 1 tablespoon. I would try to find some CaCl2, a much better compound for increasing water hardness. (It doesn't have sulfate and it doesn't increase the pH.) Many de-icers are crude preps of CaCl2, and the Northeast should be selling plenty of de-icer these days!

The baking soda and Marine Salts are what are increasing the pH. I think the amounts (1/2 tsp of each/ 55 gal) of these that you added to correct the original fish problem seem reasonable, but I would not add them regularly. I would only add them again when you do large water changes OR whenever your GH gets below about 5 or 6. Right now you have a GH of 15, which is higher than necessary, plus you have flooded the tank with sulfates.

With an organic soil like what you are using, adding more sulfates than necessary is not a good idea.

Other than that, you seem to be on the right track.

Hope this helps. Let us know how your tank does.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I'll agree with most of what dwalstad said.

The CalciumCloride solution is sold in 20 pound and 50 pound bags localy for the winter months here and a 50 pound bag is around $20.00. I use it for my reef tanks as well as for my driveway especially when the temperature drops to below 0 degrees F. 

I used to keep several very acidic tanks with Discus, various lambryth species from SE Asia. I only used Reveres Osmosis water for a starting point which had virtually nothing in it. A quick but in the long range expensive product I used was Kent Marines RO Right. but this was only when I did initial tank start ups. After that point I used to measure my levels and compensate with individual chemicals.

I used to have an Excel page years ago where I could put in my present water parameters, my goals, and tank size. It would feed back the exact amount of what I needed to add to the tank to reach those levels. I lost this calculator somehow as since then I replaced my Computer 3 times and was not doing fresh water for about 10 years. I especially liked it as it had calculations for target pH based on my hardness for adjusting my CO2 system.

I originaly got this off the internet and would love to get my hands on this again. Does anyone know if anything like this is still around?


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

The water in my area is soft. My friends and I used to complain about having problems keeping shrimps and livebearers alive. Eventually, some shrimps keepers found out by adding a few tiny pieces of coral in their filters help. I have never tried it personally. Lately my interest in livebearers has been revived. I may try the coral solution soon if I can find the pieces of coral that I have kept hidden somewhere.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

totziens said:


> The water in my area is soft. My friends and I used to complain about having problems keeping shrimps and livebearers alive. Eventually, some shrimps keepers found out by adding a few tiny pieces of coral in their filters help. I have never tried it personally. Lately my interest in livebearers has been revived. I may try the coral solution soon if I can find the pieces of coral that I have kept hidden somewhere.


Having spent a lot of time with reefs over the past 15 years I will say the the coral rock will do to things which are to increase the Alkalinity as well as the Calcium level. The problem with this is it is hard to determine the rate that the coral will release the calcium and alkalinity into the water and if will go beyond the levels that are ideal. Chances are without CO2 if do not monitor it it will eventual take you pH up to as high a 8.3. There are several easier ways of doing this which are more reliable.

1. Using a additive that you can mix with getting pickling lime and dissolving about a table spoon full of it is water. But when doing this you need to monitor the alkalinity of your water to establish your desired levels and if additional dosing is required. The nice part of this solution is usually gives you a good balance between Calcium levels and Alkalinity if you add the right amount.

2. the second is using two separate solutions.

A Solution is a mix of 1 1/2 cups of baking soda to a gallon of water. This is an Alkalinity solution and again you need to find through testing how much of the solution is needed to raise your level to where you want it. And if additional dosing is required over time.

B. Solution is a mix of 2 cups full of Calcium Chloride (this is the ice melt stuff good to -20 degrees F.) with a gallon of water. This is a Calcium solution and again you need to find through testing how much of the solution is needed to raise your level to where you want it. And if additional dosing is required over time.

Then there is the third method of using commercial products. The advantage here is your adding many different chemicals in the correct proportions. The draw back is the cost.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Actually there is another draw back in my country of getting those chemical. They are not so commonly available unless you know of someone who can supply them to you in small amount. A lot of these chemical are sold in bulk (I was told) if you can find the supplier. Baking soda can be obtained though - actually you have just reminded me of another non-aquarium related experiment I need to try using baking soda. 

Thanks for the various suggestions.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

totziens said:


> Actually there is another draw back in my country of getting those chemical. They are not so commonly available unless you know of someone who can supply them to you in small amount. A lot of these chemical are sold in bulk (I was told) if you can find the supplier. Baking soda can be obtained though - actually you have just reminded me of another non-aquarium related experiment I need to try using baking soda.
> 
> Thanks for the various suggestions.


Check the internet for places that might be willing to ship them to you. I know there is at least one company that sells plant fertilizers and handles all these in combination with others and will ship them anywhere in the world in 1 pound quantities. I;m thinking it is called plantx or something like that. But I'm sure there are others. The only draw back is that some of there chemicals can be used by terrorists and there are stricter limits on those in some parts of the world.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes, terrorism freaks out many countries in shipping these chemical. To make it worse, many of these chemical is white in colour leading to them being suspected as cocaine. 

I know this is unrelated but I can't help sharing this incident that happened to a friend of my friend. His house was basically raided by the cops because they suspected him of cultivating cannabis. The neighbours called the cops after seeing his fish tank full of plants with lights switched on every night....hahaha


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

totziens said:


> Yes, terrorism freaks out many countries in shipping these chemical. To make it worse, many of these chemical is white in colour leading to them being suspected as cocaine.
> 
> I know this is unrelated but I can't help sharing this incident that happened to a friend of my friend. His house was basically raided by the cops because they suspected him of cultivating cannabis. The neighbours called the cops after seeing his fish tank full of plants with lights switched on every night....hahaha


Wow you took my memory back a few years. I had a similar situation. When I lived in the city I used to start my garden plants indoors around the beginning of February in the basement. My lighting consisted of banks of florescent T-12 bulbs which were made for growing plants and a very blue color. One day I got a visit and was asked by a police officer what the lights were all about as a neighbor complained they were keeping them awake part of the night. I simply showed him my 2' tall pepper and plants. He commented it did not look like anything illegal is going on here. Then he started looking at my fish tanks and asking questions on how I was able to breed some species. He also had fish tanks and never could even guppies to not eat there babies. I was breeding Angle fish and white clouds at the time.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Hahaha...yours is the second cop story I have heard. Great one! I hope no cops will ever come knocking at my door because of my fish tanks


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

totziens said:


> Hahaha...yours is the second cop story I have heard. Great one! I hope no cops will ever come knocking at my door because of my fish tanks


It was not my fish tanks. It was the front basement window glowing bright blue every night till midnight when the lights went off. And if you looked through the window you only saw a blank wall with lights hanging right along the wall the window was on.


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## Masterstroke (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks Diana, your reply is extremely helpful, and thanks to everyone else who's replied. Things seem to be going better now, although the Epsom salt mess is worse than you thought. The recipe I was using was 1/2 tbs/5 gallons, not 55. Although, as I remember it, I decided to tone it down for the new tank and used about 1 tsp or less/5 gallons. 

I've done several 12 gallon water changes using tap water w/ Stress Coat and nothing else. I just hope that all my substrate rooted plants aren't going to up and die en masse sometime down the road. 

Some of my problems may have to do with my filter. I've been noticing that even with the water level up to 1/4" from the top of the tank, there's still lots of surface turbulence and lots of teeny air bubbles mixing into the water. I also think that the amount of current it kicks up is stressful to the cabomba and elodea. I'm reluctant to replace it because it has a built in heater (which I quite like), so I'll have to buy a new heater as well as a new filter. I'd rather spend the money on fish, but if the plants suffer, it kind of defeats the purpose. I'd love suggestions for a good, not too expensive filter for this tank.

As for the calcium chloride, it's certainly easy to obtain at this time of year in these parts. I actually have some on hand, but it's got blue dye in it, so I think I'll have to pick up some plain CaCl2 to put in the tank. 

TropTrea, that Excel page sounds awesome. Too bad you lost it.

As of this time, the tank seems to be doing ok. The aponogeton continues to flourish and is blooming constantly. The java fern and anubias are spouting new leaves and the new water sprite seems happy. I just added some ludwiga yesterday and I'm curious to see how it does. Following are pictures of the tank and a couple of the the massive Tetra Tec pf500.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I see two issues here.

1) 
GH is a measure of calcium and magnesium.

Plants and fish need both, in the right balance.

By adding JUST Epsom salt you are adding only magnesium. 
Remember, you are not aiming to make the test kit look pretty, you want the fish and plants to get the minerals they need. Epsom salt by itself can make the GH test read the value you want, but that does not mean the fish and plants are getting what they need.

By adding the salt and mineral blend used for marine tanks you are adding a blend of Ca and Mg (and other things).

But I suspect that the Mg is WAY too high because of adding it from both sources. I am not sure that the Ca and Mg levels in the marine salt are the right ratio for the plants and fish, though they are probably in the ballpark.

To fix this, I would stop using both products and find a balanced source of both minerals (Ca and Mg). Either make it up yourself, or buy something like Seachem Equilibrium or Barr's GH booster. Read the label on whatever product you find. Make sure it really has what you want. Some GH boosters have sodium chloride, which you do not want in a fresh water tank.

2) 
The salt and mineral blend for marine tanks has sodium chloride. Many livebearers thrive in low end brackish water, so adding this in the right amount might be just what they need. But I had a really hard time growing plants in water with salt (sodium chloride) added. My low end brackish water tank (Specific gravity 1.004, made with Coral Life) would kill any of the regular aquarium plants in a few weeks or less. It grew some really nice Mollies and Guppies, though.

For my hard water fish (Lake Tanganyika, certain Rainbows, many Live bearers) I would set the GH to their preferred level with GH booster (Equilibrium or other product) that had more Ca than Mg. 
Then I would set the KH roughly equal to the GH with baking soda. You could also use potassium bicarbonate, if you do not want to add the sodium to your tank. 
I also had some coral sand and some oyster shell grit (sold for caged birds like Budgies) in the filter. 
No salt (sodium chloride).


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Masterstroke said:


> I also think that the amount of current it kicks up is stressful to the cabomba and elodea. I'm reluctant to replace it because it has a built in heater (which I quite like), so I'll have to buy a new heater as well as a new filter. I'd rather spend the money on fish, but if the plants suffer, it kind of defeats the purpose. I'd love suggestions for a good, not too expensive filter for this tank.


Cabomba is one of the plants that I gave up on many years ago. Yes I could grow it but if anything went slightly wrong it made such a mess in the tank that I felt it was not worth the effort.

Another touch and go plant for me was common anacaris. Years ago I used to be able find a thin stemmed variety that grew out of control. But lately (last 15 years) the only one I can find is very thick stemmed and brittle. Touch it or have to much current in the tank and it keeps breaking into smaller pieces.

As far as Filter go dependent on tank size I love the Marineland canisters for the larger tanks. If there were air bubbles it was because I did not close the lid tight or the lid gasket had worn out. Wish they still made the 350 an now they only make the 250 HOT and the 500.



Masterstroke said:


> As for the calcium chloride, it's certainly easy to obtain at this time of year in these parts. I actually have some on hand, but it's got blue dye in it, so I think I'll have to pick up some plain CaCl2 to put in the tank.


Yes the blue stuff is what were using on our drive now. $7.00 for 15 # while the pure stuff was $12 for 25# or $18.00 for 50#. Unfortunately they are all out of tit with our deep freeze were having now.



Masterstroke said:


> TropTrea, that Excel page sounds awesome. Too bad you lost it.


I'm sure it is still out there. Just a matter of someone finding it.



Masterstroke said:


> As of this time, the tank seems to be doing ok. The aponogeton continues to flourish and is blooming constantly. The java fern and anubias are spouting new leaves and the new water sprite seems happy. I just added some ludwiga yesterday and I'm curious to see how it does. Following are pictures of the tank and a couple of the the massive Tetra Tec pf500.


Apogontetons were something I had mixed feelings for. Loved the Lace plants but they would grow beautifully then suddenly start dieing back. But bulbs are supposed to be annuals and pushing them to keep growing all year around is an issue.

I started playing the Anubais when I got my store. Wow they turned out to be one of my favorites after a few months. To many people told me they were hard to keep and slow growers. But after they took hold I proved them otherwise. I used to have 5 different mother plants and used to sell cuttings from them regularly. I personally think they like softer water than what most people are keeping them in.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Masterstroke said:


> Thanks Diana, your reply is extremely helpful, and thanks to everyone else who's replied. Things seem to be going better now, although the Epsom salt mess is worse than you thought. The recipe I was using was 1/2 tbs/5 gallons, not 55. Although, as I remember it, I decided to tone it down for the new tank and used about 1 tsp or less/5 gallons.
> 
> I've done several 12 gallon water changes using tap water w/ Stress Coat and nothing else. I just hope that all my substrate rooted plants aren't going to up and die en masse sometime down the road.
> 
> ...


Hello Master Stroke:

Thanks for posting pictures. Glad to hear that you are addressing the MgSO4. A half-tablespoon per 5 gal! I can see where the plants might have had problems, just from the excess salt ions in the water, not to mention the H2S. Water changes should definitely help.

The CaCl2... I think you could probably use the stuff with the blue dye, which I doubt is toxic. You don't need much, plus you can get rid of the dye with a little activated charcoal. This is better than buying a 50 lb bag, plus I'll bet you won't be able to find any CaCl2 for awhile. 

I found a nice recipe for correcting hardwater that is simple and gave one hobbyists "explosive" growth of swords and Val. It seems reasonable. Add 1 tsp of CaCl2 and 1 tsp of Epsoms salt to a pint of water. Add 1 tsp of the pint mix to a 45-55 gal tank. The salts may not all dissolve, so shake the pint well before adding. The salt residue will eventually dissolve in the tank, since both CaCl2 and MgSO4 are very soluble.

A little NaCl is fine. All natural hardwaters have some NaCl.

As to your filter, that's a big one, alright! It probably is drawing off considerable carbon dioxide. I don't like the "hang-on-the-backs," because you always have to keep the water level up and it's hard to have floating plants. (I prefer small submersibles and internal filters.) Until you find a smaller filter that you like, why not put your big filter on a timer and just run it at night? This actually might work well for your tank.


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## Masterstroke (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for the recipe. It's easy and convenient. I like that because I'm really trying to reduce the amount of time I spend fussing with my tanks. Fortunately, my local hardware store stocks 5 lb containers of CaCl2, so it won't be a big deal to buy and use the unadulterated stuff, even if the blue is acceptable.

I'm a little wary of turning the filter off because it has an integrated heater design. No filter equals no heat, although I suppose that the heat in the room during the day will keep the water warm enough. Meanwhile the thing is driving me nuts. It's loud and it's really battering my plants, especially the crinum. The poor plant keeps sending shoots up toward the surface, but the tops curl away from the filter and when the shoots get about 3/4's of the way up, they develop a dead spot near the bulb and die. Very frustrating. This filter is definitely the playground bully of HOB filters.

I was looking through the box 'o stuff that I inherited with the my tanks and found an old Zoo-Med Powersweep 20 rotating powerhead. It's 160 gal/minute, so I guess it would probably be enough for this tank. As soon as I get a sponge for it and a heater, the Tetra tec goes bye-bye.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Diana K I missed your post. But you bring up a very good point on the Ca to Mg balance. In my Reef thanks I run roughly 1400ppm of Magnesium and 300 ppm of Calcium. This is not the ideal balance between the two for a Planted tank by any means. I will also agree that Sodium Chloride is a very touch and go chemical for the planted tank. There are some plants that can tolerate it to a low level other plants simply cannot stand it. I have used it in brackish tanks with plants that are native to areas of brackish waters but 95% of the aquarium plants are not in this group. 

As far as your live bearers go all of them are not lovers of salt in the water. However there are some strains of mollies that will survive in water with a density of even 1.023. The only plants I know that survive in that water though are the mangroves and some of the macro algae.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Masterstroke said:


> I was looking through the box 'o stuff that I inherited with the my tanks and found an old Zoo-Med Powersweep 20 rotating powerhead. It's 160 gal/minute, so I guess it would probably be enough for this tank. As soon as I get a sponge for it and a heater, the Tetra tec goes bye-bye.


That Power Sweep at 160 gallons per minute breaks down to 9,600 gallons per hour. That is about the right size for a 380 gallon SPS Reef aquarium but for a planted Aquarium you should have at least a 2,000 gallon tank for a filter that powerful. If you have loose substrate it will be equally mixed with your water and suspended with that much power.

I like the Magnum 350 HOT filters. They do not have a built in heater however you can direct the flow in any way you want to with tube extenders for the inlet and output. They are the right size for a tank around 70 gallons.


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## Masterstroke (Jan 16, 2014)

TropTrea said:


> That Power Sweep at 160 gallons per minute breaks down to 9,600 gallons per hour. That is about the right size for a 380 gallon SPS Reef aquarium but for a planted Aquarium you should have at least a 2,000 gallon tank for a filter that powerful. If you have loose substrate it will be equally mixed with your water and suspended with that much power.
> 
> I like the Magnum 350 HOT filters. They do not have a built in heater however you can direct the flow in any way you want to with tube extenders for the inlet and output. They are the right size for a tank around 70 gallons.


Oops.. That should have read 160 gph. Don't know what I was thinking when I typed gallons/minute. I'm assuming that 160 gph is a much more reasonable rate for a 55 gallon tank.

The plants are holding their own and perhaps doing better since the many water changes. I've still got the big filter going, but plan to shut it down as soon as my new heaters arrive.

Currently there's a small outbreak of brown algae or diatoms. It's brownish and covers parts of the substrate and many submerged plant leaves. When I first saw it a couple of weeks ago or more, I thought it was loose dirt settling, but I figured otherwise when it started to get thicker and fuzzier. The one thing that the Tetra tec has going for it is that there's no gunk on the substrate under the filter or where the current comes down the far corner and sweeps across the gravel.

I've started adding liquid CO2 again so that the plants can survive until I get rid of the Tetra tec. I've heard that it's also a good algaecide and the brown stuff does seem to be retreating. So, we'll see what happens. One of these days I'll actually put some fish in there...


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

> ... live bearers... not all of them love salt in the water.


Very true. Whether live bearer or any other fish, trying to keep them in water with the right mineral levels will usually work better than trying to keep them at some level that is out of their tolerance range. And this includes sodium chloride. 
Not all live bearers thrive with salt in the tank.


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