# question re cherry shrimps



## donmartinr (Apr 26, 2006)

I read that cherry red shrimps are sensitive to nitrate. Does this mean I should cut down on nitrate ferts? 
I have an 8 gallon tank,medium to heavily planted with CO2 and 24 watt PC light 6 hours a day(from 10 hours). And if I don't dose ferts, I will get a BGA/algae outbreak (which I did few months ago).
I am currently dosing 1/8 tsp KNO3 2x a week (from 3x/week), 3 drops (approx .125ml) of enema 3x week, 1ml of csm and iron 3x/ week, 1ml of KS04 3x/week, MgSO4 1/4 tbsp @ water change.
It is only at this levels that I was able to slow down algae growth with good plant growth.
I did notice that I lost several shrimps already.
Are amano shrimps more tolerable?
Which are better re: algae control cherries or amanos?


Thanks


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## YuccaPatrol (Mar 26, 2006)

I dont do any ferts at all in my shrimp tanks. They are heavily planted with java moss, java fern, crypts, water lily, duck weed, and those bulb plants with the long straight leaves (sorry I forgot what they are called)

With cherry shrimp and red ramshorn snails, algae is kept at bay. I do get some very small amounts of staghorn algae which nobody wants to eat, but I remove affected leaves and it doesn't take over at all.

Anyway, that is just how I do it. I am afraid of ferts harming my shrimp, even if it means my plants grow slower, but they seem to grow pretty darn fast as it is. My substrate is Fluorite.

The consensus seems to be that amanos may eat more types of algae, but cherries reproduce so much that their numbers make them the winner for the budget conscions shrimp keeper.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

I have cherries and amanos and dose full ferts with no ill effects. Nitrates kept around 15-25, PO4 around 2-4. As far as algae eating abilities, amanos due to their larger size are capable of eating more algae. But from personal experience, I can say that the cherries are constantly nibbling away at something (usually I can't see what it is).


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

ORGANIC nitrates (the stuff that comes from decomposing material in your tank) are the bad stuff. The nonorganic nitrates (the stuff you use to dose with) have a minimal affect on aquatic life unless you go way up on them. As long as you stay under 50 ppm of nonorganic nitrate, I believe the shrimp/fish should be OK. Do yourself a favor and get a cheap nitrate test kit. It'll give you a ballpark estimate of where your nitrates are. If they're off the charts, then that might be the cause of your shrimp death.

So as long as you're taking care of your water quality by doing water changes and keeping the aquarium free of uneaten food and waste, you'll be OK with dosing fertilizers.

Hope that clears it up.


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## Shrimp&Snails (Mar 27, 2006)

Bert H & erijnal are your cherries reproducing?


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## donmartinr (Apr 26, 2006)

erijnal, thanks. That really clear thinngs up. So its the organic nitrates that are toxic. 
thanks again


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

Yeah my cherries are reproducing. It's only a matter of if the babies can escape the notice of my cardinal tetras before they get sucked into the canister filter nursery


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## YuccaPatrol (Mar 26, 2006)

NO3 is NO3. It doesn't matter if it is organic or inorganic in origin. Certainly there are other toxic substances in organic waste (DOC's) that add to the toxicity, but I'd be hesitant to suggest that inorganic nitrate is harmless.


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## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

erijnal said:


> ORGANIC nitrates (the stuff that comes from decomposing material in your tank) are the bad stuff. The nonorganic nitrates (the stuff you use to dose with)


Sigh.

It's not the N03, but what's attached to it. And it's not organic -vs- organic but the fact that the Ammonium in Ammonium Nitrate is harsher on fish and creates more algae problems than the Potassium in Potassium Nitrate.

Nitrate from fish waste decomposition is *Ammonium Nitrate, NH4NO3*. This is naturally produced from bacteria during the nitrogen cycle. NH4NO3 doesn't contain any carbon, so it isn't considered organic as in Organic Chemistry. It can be produced from living organisms, so it does fit the broader definition of organic. It used in terrestrial plant fertilizers such as Miracle Grow.

Nitrate for fertilizer dosing is *KNO3, Potassium Nitrate*. This can be also naturally produced by bacteria during another bacterial decomposition process inside of compost heaps. KNO3 doesn't contain any carbon, so it isn't considered organic as in Organic Chemistry. It can be produced from living organisms, so it does fit the broader definition of organic. (I noticed that this forum added a link to where you can buy it for aquarium use -- sweet.)

P.S.
Whenever you see the following words used, the are frequently used incorrectly or outside their proper context due to contamination from televised marketing campaigns:
* chemical
* effective
* natural
* organic


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

Owned.

Oh well, the general idea was there.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

ruki said:


> Sigh.
> 
> It's not the N03, but what's attached to it. And it's not organic -vs- organic but the fact that the Ammonium in Ammonium Nitrate is harsher on fish and creates more algae problems than the Potassium in Potassium Nitrate.
> 
> ...


Excellent explanation! Posts like that are one of the reasons I visit here so often.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

donmartinr said:


> I read that cherry red shrimps are sensitive to nitrate. Does this mean I should cut down on nitrate ferts?


I think most shrimps are sensitive to high nitrate levels. But trying to define a high nitrate level for shrimp is difficult, because it is different in most everyones book.



> I have an 8 gallon tank,medium to heavily planted with CO2 and 24 watt PC light 6 hours a day(from 10 hours). And if I don't dose ferts, I will get a BGA/algae outbreak (which I did few months ago).
> I am currently dosing 1/8 tsp KNO3 2x a week (from 3x/week), 3 drops (approx .125ml) of enema 3x week, 1ml of csm and iron 3x/ week, 1ml of KS04 3x/week, MgSO4 1/4 tbsp @ water change.
> It is only at this levels that I was able to slow down algae growth with good plant growth.


If your injecting C02 you do not want to stop ferts completely or algae issues will arise again. What I did was cut back fert dosing to half the original amount for my shrimp tank.



> I did notice that I lost several shrimps already.


I don't have great success with Cherry shrimp either. They just don't breed for me like other folks has them to do.



> Are amano shrimps more tolerable?


From my experience with Amano's and other shrimp, I do believe they are. My Amano's seem to tolerate various water parameters very well.



> Which are better re: algae control cherries or amanos?


That's a tuff question, so I want answer it


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

donmartinr said:


> I read that cherry red shrimps are sensitive to nitrate. Does this mean I should cut down on nitrate ferts?


Shrimp are sensitive to nitrate. I keep the nitrates below 10ppm for most of my tanks. I have not measured them in a very long time. What I do is I plant the tank really well with plants that suck most of the nitrates. Plants include moss, egeria najas, hygros, ludiwiga, baby tears, and some floating plants.



> I did notice that I lost several shrimps already.


Shrimp loss are generally caused by stress, ph crash/spike, feeding too much. Cherry shrimp are very hardy and can tolerate a wide range of water conditions.



> Are amano shrimps more tolerable?


In my experience both of them are very tolerable of different water conditions. I can not say one is more than the other.



> Which are better re: algae control cherries or amanos?


In my experience both of them are good algae eaters. Depending on your tank size and budget, one will be better than the other. Do not expect them to totally wipe out algae from your tank.

Cheers,
Pedro


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> Bert H & erijnal are your cherries reproducing?


Yes, very muchly so! Everytime I clean out my cannister filter, I pull out somewhere between 20-40 small shrimp. They live in a tank with guppies, who I think will occasionally make a snack out of them. But to get back to your original question, yes, they are very prolific.


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## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

I have cherry shrimp, but they aren't prolific yet. I started with about a dozen in January, I still have at least a dozen (as if you can count them when you have plants) but no huge numbers yet.


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## Neon Shrimp (Apr 26, 2006)

have you seen any of the females with what looks like saddles, this is where the ovaries produce eggs. If you have, look for some males which are more pale and have longer antennae. If you have both male and female then see if you are feeding them enough food and that the water is in good condition. After you have all this they should be breeding!


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## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

I have enough algae in the tank, so I haven't been feeding them. I bet if I started doing that, I would have more shimp, but then I would also have more algae!


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## Neon Shrimp (Apr 26, 2006)

Try to increase the food *slowly* like once every couple of days and see if you get better results. Tell me how it goes.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

i put 40 healthy cherry reds in a tank that gets dosed with seachems fertz, all the shrimps died within 2 hrs. Tank params were normal.

will never put shrimp + ferts together again no matter what anyone says.


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## Neon Shrimp (Apr 26, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your shrimp. Did you dose according to the suggested amount and had this happen? I just think that ferts might not be compatible with shrimp after hearing about your experience.


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## ruki (Jul 4, 2006)

I went from almost no fertilizers to regular micronutriuent and iron supplementation with no adverse effects on the shrimp. The plants in that tank don't need macro nutrient supplementation so I skip that.

Gut feel is that adding KNO3 K2SO4 could harm the shrimp, so that's a reason to skip it. The problem in skipping it is that one is deviating from nutrient schedules proven to reduce algae. So, I'm hoping the shrimp and algae eaters can keep up with the outbreaks.


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## marco_1962 (Sep 14, 2005)

newguy said:


> i put 40 healthy cherry reds in a tank that gets dosed with seachems fertz, all the shrimps died within 2 hrs. Tank params were normal.
> 
> will never put shrimp + ferts together again no matter what anyone says.


Are you using Equilibrium?


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

i dont know what that is. I dosed (all below listed amount) seachem flourish and the 3 seachem macros. And the dosing was done 2 days before i added the shrimps! 

i have kepted the cherry reds in my biorb (newbie tank) under some very bad conditions and not 1 died, and also in a q tank where they were actually breeding nicely. Then boom! put it in my best kept tank with all perfect water params, and it was a massacre. Only conclusion is the seachem nutrient dosings.

edit: come to think of it, i was using seachem excel as well back then. That could a reason!


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## aquaboyaquatics (Feb 22, 2006)

Nitrates in my Cherry Red tanks are off the charts. They breed, flourish and there is no stopping them. I also cut up dried oak leaves to create a mulm on the tank bottom. So Cherry Reds do fine with a naturally occurring Nitrate build-up. I feed only 4 times per week with flake food.

The Amano Shrimp are even hardier. These I would have to say consume more algae then Cherry Reds. I say this for 2 reasons

1. They are a larger shrimp so they need more food.

2. They occur naturally in cooler water then Cherry Reds. This means our aquariums at 78 degrees are at the high end of there temp rang. This speeds there metabolism thus increasing the need for a higher intake of food.

Mike


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## marco_1962 (Sep 14, 2005)

newguy said:


> i dont know what that is. I dosed (all below listed amount) seachem flourish and the 3 seachem macros. And the dosing was done 2 days before i added the shrimps!
> 
> i have kepted the cherry reds in my biorb (newbie tank) under some very bad conditions and not 1 died, and also in a q tank where they were actually breeding nicely. Then boom! put it in my best kept tank with all perfect water params, and it was a massacre. Only conclusion is the seachem nutrient dosings.
> 
> edit: come to think of it, i was using seachem excel as well back then. That could a reason!


Thank's for your answer. Another question: how much do you dose excel?


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## Lorazoo (Jun 8, 2006)

I have a 120 planted and was dosing with fertilizer according to the EI dosing chart 1-2 imes a week. I had problems with my shrimp just dying. 1-2 a week I would just find dead. I was told it could have been metal toxicity? However, I don't know where that would come from. Anyone have any ideas? My nitrtaes were around 20ppm and Ammonia and Nitirites were at 0. My pH was at 6.8


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

marco_1962 said:


> Thank's for your answer. Another question: how much do you dose excel?


same as other dosing = below the listed amount i think it's listed as 5ml for 10 gallon. I was dosing around 15ml for 50 gallon. Also tested for copper, it was 0. Funny thing is i got a dozen nerite snails and a bunch other snails that came in with my plants, and all of them are alive and doing well. Then later i added fish and again they were fine too. So it appears only the shrimps are affected and not slowly, but in a masssive sudden death.

Others suggested it could be shock as i did not acclimate moving from q tank to main tank. But both have the exact same params + temp, only difference is i didnt dose the q tank.

Anyway i am still sad about my shrimps, 6 of them were with me since my first tank a year ago. They got really big and 2 were preg when i put them into the main tank and watched it all die in 2 hrs (along with 30+ others i bought later on).


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