# [Wet Thumb Forum]-132 Gallon tank - Go Natural ?



## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Hello
Im about to start up a 132 Gallon (500 liter) tank soon, and im uncertain about which substrate to use. Im in the progress of reading Dianas book for the second time, and see a lot of benifits in following the El-natural method. However, im a little concerned about doing it in such a large tank to start out with (will be my first natural setup). Moreover, I am not planning to have it stuffed with plants, ie. there will be open areas of substrate with no roots to keep the substrate healthy. Therefore I have a few questions that I would like your opinions on :

Q1 : Will the open areas of substrate with no root activity be a problem ?

Q2 : Is it possible (an adviceable) to only have soil beneath the gravel locally where the plants will be ? (as opposed to having soil under the complete substrate)


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## meloeno (Feb 27, 2005)

The answer on the second question is 'yes'. But there is one disadvantage: when you replant in the future, you can only use the places with soil in theory. (however there're some solutions for that)


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Hello
Thank you 

There is one question i would like to add :

Q3 : Is it "a bad ideer" to start out by trying to make such a relatively large tank work el-natural, or ? Somehow I would feel more comftalble by trying it with a smaller tank first, but my concerns my be without reason ?


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

/bonk


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I've never had a tank that size, but I did start up again in the hobby after a 8+ year hiatus with a 50 gallon El natural style. I had the same concerns you did, and in other posts people metioned experimenting with 5 gal and 10 gal tanks...but I jumped in and have had no *problems* to report.

Some green water, some algae, my rich soil still turns the water yellow and 30-40% water changes have been performed twice since I started the tank end of July. I think most of my questions are part of the natural learning curve, this is my first planted tank of any type.

I think any style of 132 gallon tank is a scary undertaking!

But if I had the choice/chance of not having to tear down the tank for 5-10 years, as opposed to the 2-3 years I hear for some high tech tanks, I'd go for the 5-10 year plan. That seems to be the El natural route.


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## Avenolpey (Jun 28, 2005)

Can't wait to read Diana's reply. I would suspect that a thinner soil layer would be in order versus areas with no soil at all. Wiskey just did a 180. My 50 gallon has lots of bare spots and it has been doing very will for 4 months. Much easier to maintain than it was as a high tech tank.

I think this tank should have been El Natural.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8952


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Thank you for the replies 

And yes, my main concerns are that I am not going to have the tank "Stuffed" with plants, and thus the will be a nice open area of substrate, proberly in the middle of the tank. Im planning on having Angels and rummynose tetras in it, and then som corydoras. The reason for not "stuffin" the tank full of plants is that I am trying to avoid having to prune to often. This is mainly due to the fact that I dont want to bother the angels to often. I am proberly going to use 1-2 mm sand as top-substrate.

So any other experiences/suggestions are more than welcome ;-)


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Dear Christian, 

Wouldn't the pruning frequency depend on the type of plants, rather than the number of plants in the tank? If you plant only a few fast-growing plants you will still have to prune them more often than if you stuffed the tank full of slower-growing varieties. Perhaps you could plant mainly plants that grow on runners; this way you would only have to do a major prune when they became so crowded that they stopped growing. 

I was worried about how my Western Pygmy Perches would react to frequent pruning. They are not the hardiest of fish psychologically, and used to be upset for many days after I did a major pruning (about every two months before switching to "El Natural" tanks). After four prunings two weeks apart, however, they stopped being scared. Now the male even follows the scissors around the tank in case any worms or other edible creatures get disturbed! I've never kept Angels, but maybe they could adjust too? 

Oh, and just out of interest, what are the dimensions of your tank? I have a 132 gallon that I'm slowly setting up - it's 120cm long x 70cm wide x 60cm tall (48 inches x 28 inches x 24 inches). 

From Alex.


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Hello Alex
Yes you are absolutely right about the pruning versus number of plants theory. The thing is, that I am planning to keep corydoras catfish (any experiences with these on soil substrate ?), and they need som open substrate to fiddle around in. Moreover, I would prefer a tank that wasent to "overgrown" by plants. But then again, I could stick to small crytocorynes.....My plan was to make an amazon tank, and thus keep the planting scheme in the tank simple and not too crowded. Im properly gonna have a hard time sticking to south american plants only, as I really like the crypts. As you might have guessed, I havent got a solid plan yet....hehe. Another approach would be to keep the majority of plants in pots, but as it is proberly gonna be hard to hide all the pots, it will proberly not look very nice (which is important in my oppinion)

About the tank dimensions : It is 160cm x 55cm x 60cm (62.99 inches x 21.65 inches x 23.62 inches) (it is 140 gallon, not 132 gallon. I miscalculated the first time)


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Dear Christian, 

I think pots would be a pain if you had to try and hide them. I am pretty sure I read a post by Diana somewhere in "El Natural" where she said that open areas of substrate without plant roots did not become anaerobic as long as the layers of soil and gravel were thin enough so oxygen could penetrate to the bottom. I looked and looked for it but couldn't find it again, so perhaps I imagined it or got mixed up. 

From Alex.


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Dear Alex
Yeah, pots are properly going to be a pain. The thin substrate theory sounds right. Im hoping Diana will swing by this thread and give har opinion.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for being patient. I just can't get to all the letters lately, as a recent horse injury requiring my daily bandaging and nursing care is sucking two hours out of my days.

I don't think that bare, unplanted areas above soil should cause any problems, especially if you are talking about ordinary soil. A too deep layer (more than 1 inch or 2.5 cm) of potting soil might cause problems. 

Firstly, in nature you see fish-containing lakes with huge areas (lake bottoms) without plants. In fact, most lakes have very few aquatic plants and lost of bare sediment. Most aquatic plants only grow along a thin shallow edging of the lake.

Secondly, my little bottle experiments with soil covered with gravel (no plants) never showed problems. This is with many different soils.

My 50 gal tank with topsoil has many bare areas. Plants are either growing in pots or they are on lava rocks on top of the soil/gravel. Fish are fine.


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Hello Diana,
Thank you for the reply. You dont need to excuse the time taken to answer my questions. I think everybody would agree that it is a priviledge being able to ask questions regarding a book directly to the author. Regaring the horses, I really understand you ;-) My girlfriend does a lot of horse back riding, and boy is it time consuming.....

However I have a few further questions:

1: Have you tried keeping corydoras catfish in natural tanks ? After reading your book im a little concerned that they will mess up the biofilm in the substrate top ?

2: Do you use wood decoration in your tanks? Im thinking that maybe it would cause problems to have a big piece of wood lying on top of the substrate with soil underneath ?

3: As I recall from your book p.138, you pretty quickly add fish to your tanks when setting them up, but you also explain how a lot of elements are released initially from the soil. Havent you had problems with fish being irritated/affected by iron, aluminum etc ?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by Christian Hansen:
> Hello Diana,
> 
> If you have a girlfriend with horses, you must be an understanding guy!
> ...


No. The only problems I've had has come from zinc in my tapwater and nitrites. I suggest using a water conditioner containing a metal chelator when you first set up your tank.


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## Christian Hansen (Apr 27, 2006)

Thank you for the answers ;-)

And yes I consider my self an understanding guy, but then again, with my fisktanks, my girlfriend is pretty understanding too...hehe


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Christian: I have a nice-sized piece of driftwood in my tank that hasn't caused any problems at all. I just put the wood right on top of the gravel and so far no problems. I've even started to see where my bristlenose pleco has been chewing on the wood. He's dug himself a little hideout underneath the log and spends all of his time there. (does anybody have any ideas on how I can get him to come out more?)

As to your concern about adding fish right away, I would say do a soil test first. Set up a large mason or mayo jar w/ an 1" of soil and an 1" of gravel and then test the water every couple of days for a few weeks. That will let you know if your soil will leach anything harmful. Mine leached a ton of nitrites into the water and I didn't do a soil test before hand so I had some very stressed out (and some dead) fish about two - four weeks after I set up the tank. Things have settled down now though and all my fish are looking great.

-ricardo


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