# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Plant vs. Algae battle - how should I help?



## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

My 50G tank seems to be having a bit of trouble stabilizing. It's about 6 months old now (no so new in my mind) and plant growth has kind of slowed to a crawl. Even the "fast growers" are slow and getting hit with algae.

The attached picture shows the most typical algae, a fuzz growing on the glass and almost everything in between. The v.spiralis in the background, h.polysperma, I also have egeria najas with sections that are quite clogged with the same algae.

I noticed yesterday the branchy looking algae in the middle of the picture...have not put a name to it yet though.

Also, I've noted some beard algae on a few plants in what looks like blue, grey and black, even a few tufts on java fern roots and gravel. Spot algae on the glass and plants, you can see some blue spots on the b. monnieri. If algae were the object...









If I let lemna minor cover too much of the tank and I prevent light from getting to the plants and some types of algae have the advantage. When I remove most of the l.minor, the plants get more light and other algae takes off. I've seen the cycle a few times now, I can't seem to figure it out.

So to try help the plants, I thinned l.minor again, removed the bio media from my filter and am now running foam only - let the plants process ammonia etc. I keep 3 sides of the tank cleared of algae, should I get a scraper and work on the back too? I've got 5 cardina japonica, 2 Oto. macrospilus to eat algae?

I have to pick a side and stick to it. I am thinking of just trimming some of the more algae infested sections/leaves on plants and letting it be for a few weeks and see what happens. Is there something else anyone would recommend, or is this sort of algae variety and quantity typical? Will the boost in light help the plants, or should I be scared to leave the conditions as is and have algae overrun the tank?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Could you use some pothos or peace lillies with just their roots in the water to help suck up nutrients without shading the aquatic plants?


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

There was a post recently which went through all the things you can do to combat algae on multiple fronts. Try looking for the keyword iron, as it was mentioned several times in the post.

I'd put some charcoal in the filter, as this will remove some of the chelators which are letting iron become available. 

If your tank gets natural light, use black tape or heavy paper to block light from hitting the substrate, which also makes iron available to the algae. 

Add some floating plants with larger root systems, or some hornwort floating. Remove nutrients from the water column so they're not available for algae. 

Break up the photoperiod. After a few hours of light, if the levels of CO2 are reduced (as they probably will be without supplemental CO2), plants "sleep" while the algae carries on. Try having the lights on for 4-5 hours. Make the lights go off for an hour, and then back on for another 4-5 hours. This will interfere with the later stages of a 10-12 hour photoperiod, when the plants respiration has slowed, but the algae are still going strong, and benefitting from the photoreduction of iron (making it available)

Add more fastgrowing plants to compete with algae.

Add algae eaters like snails and/or shrimp (even glass shrimp, the inexpensive feeder shrimp) to graze on the algae. This will be partly dependent on the types of fish kept in this tank.

Do more frequent water changes while this problem persists. This will remove nutrients from the water column, making it unavailable for algae.

OK, that's all I can think of for the moment.
-Jane


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## imported_BobB (Feb 26, 2005)

Hi Jane,
Sounds like BBA in the mix. There are ways to combat BBA and Diana has covered them thoroughly. But is not quick or easy..or at least that has been my experience. Even when you do get rid of it, it may return at a later date. It seems to come and go on it's own. (Life cycle of BBA, maybe?)
The only way I've ever been able to put it to rest permanently, is to throw away every thing in the tank and start over.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I wouldn't tear the tank down. I've had tanks this bad recover nicely.

Your plants look fairly healthy, so there's hope. A little tinkering on your part might shift the balance towards the plants.

The fact that duckweed is growing so well in your tank suggests that there's excessive iron (duckweed frequently yellows and dies in my tanks). Water-soluble iron stimulates algae.

I'd start by adding charcoal to your filter. I'd also reduce the lighting photoperiod or just let the duckweed cover the top. I wouldn't worry too much about your plants getting enough light unless they show _true_ signs of light starvation and/or no growth.

You could also add emergent plants with bigger root systems than duckweed. And/or get some Java moss and or Christmas moss that will grow in low light.

Experiment a little and you may be surprised.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

As of late, the duckweed is not doing so well...it seems my fish have suddenly taken a liking to it and are eating the roots off the bottom of the plants. After my last thinning the quantity of plants have gone down because of this.

I've been trying to find some Limnobium laevigatum as I have a glass top and canopy that make emergent plants difficult or impossible. I picked up some egeria najas but it didn't want to float! Even when I planted it like stem plants, it bent over and has formed a pretty ugly looking mass of twisted plant.

I have not had charcoal in there for some time so, the experiments continue...


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Dear Fishies,

Usually when fish eat floating plants like Duckweed they eat the entire plant, not just the roots. To me it seems more likely that your Duckweed has dropped its roots by itself. The Thin Duckweed in my tanks and ponds sometimes does this. I can't decide whether it is because the plants don't like the growing conditions or if it is seasonal (my _Azolla_ loses its roots every spring and then grows new ones).

I'm not surprised the _Egeria najas_ didn't make a good emergent plant. _Egeria_ species do sometimes float just under the water surface but they do not produce emergent leaves.

I hope your tank picks up soon!

From Alex.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I wasn't thinking of using E.Najas as an emergent plant exactly, I was hoping to let it grow up as a sort of backdrop wall two plants deep But it never really stood up straight or floated to the surface the same way in my tank as it was at the LFS. As single stems, it would just drop to the bottom and rest there; as a result it kind of just formed a messy birds nest looking mound.

Strange, seems most all my plants are short or stunted except bacopa monnieri and ludwigia repens. I have a java fern that is growing new leaves about 40-50% shorter than the ones that were on it when I bought it. My vallisneria spiralis replaced all it's original leaves with much shorter leaves. My dwarf hygro, seems to have "re-dwarfed" since arriving too.

I guess plant tryouts are still open.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I've been doing some reading and research on algae control possibilities that don't kill fish or plants and I found several articles similar to this Aqua Botanic Barley Article discussing barley in ponds for algae control.

This thread from the Krib  discusses barley and H2O2 but does not conclude the two are linked.

This thread on the Krib discusses in some detail adding H2O2 and what quantities people have added to aquariums with varying degrees of effectiveness and/or consequences to fauna.

Another site which discusses H2O2 as a system whole tank algae treatment.

With my algae problem getting worse and worse no matter what I tried (water changes, more hours light, less light, more floating plants, less floating plants) it was steadily taking over and smothering the plants.

I decided to take a chance and see what would happen if I gradually added H2O2, pharmacy grade, 3% hydrogen peroxide to my water to see if it would kill off or slow the algae.

In 6 hour steps I added larger doses of H2O2 over the course of 3 days. Smaller doses seemed to have no effect. When I approached (sorry for the metric standard mix-up) 1 ml of H2O2 per Gallon, on the third day I noticed a significant change in the algae in the tank by the end of that day.

Algae was turning white and getting soft. The fish were pecking about at algae everywhere it was growing, glass, gravel, plants. The otos were just plain fat from gorging themselves!

The 5th day (Jan 12) I decided to do a 50% water change since algae was dying off and I was worried the pollution would be too much. Don't know if this was the case, but it couldn't hurt.

Two weeks later, no deaths to platy, rummy, otocinclus, japonica even physa and mini-ramshorn snails are doing fine.

I had some vals that had been doing very poorly and were covered with algae that looked bad before the treatment and after the treatment looked even worse. This might have been the case all along, only the coat of algae hid how bad they were. They are gone, replaced my a few stems of H.Difformis.

Other than that, my only major observation is that my plants are going nuts with growth. I assume it's because there is no algae to compete with, and they actually get all the light now instead of what filters through their algae fur coats.

I am not at all saying everyone with algae problems should run and douse the tank with H2O2, but in my case I was actually thinking of a complete do-over of the whole thing and it was a last ditch attempt to save the tank.

Being liberal with the caution and patience and sparing with the H2O2 it proved for me, in my water conditions, with my plants and fish, to be an effective way to stop algae and give plants a hand up.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

That's great that the algae is finally gone and that the plants have taken off! Earlier on, you said some of your plants seemed stunted. Have they started growing larger now that the algae is gone? 

From Alex.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi Fishies,

Intriguing post and very helpful! Thanks for clearly posting your results and giving us links for more information.

One thing I like about hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as algae control is that it wouldn't add a chemical that would accumulate in the tank (unlike adding copper sulfate or potassium permanganate).

The oxidation of stuff in the tank would be fairly quick. Algae without a cell wall or dense mass of tissue (like a fish) would be most affected.

I was surprised that fish weren't more affected by the treatment. On first thought, I would have thought that the hydrogen peroxide would have damaged the fish's sensitive gill tissue (H2O2 is going to oxidize indiscrimmantely). However, on second thought, the gill tissue's job is to handle oxygen. Gill tissue may be much better at handling excessive oxygenation than algae. New theory









In any case, the "proof is in the pudding". You were cautious in handling it so that you minimized damage to fish and plants while killing the algae. Very good!


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

> Originally posted by Miss Fishy:
> ...
> Earlier on, you said some of your plants seemed stunted. Have they started growing larger now that the algae is gone?


The included pic shows the difference. The Dec 21 shot was from about 10 days before the treatment and basically the same state as it looked for weeks leading up to the H2O2. The plants had just stopped.

The pic taken tonight really shows what the h.polysperma and l.repens have done. More impressive is how clean the whole tank looks compared to before.

Not a true A/B comparison since I removed some plants just before and since the H2O2. I think though, it's pretty obvious if you look at leaf size that something has changed. Most of the growth has occurred since about Jan 8.

I will be topping the l.repens and filling in the font corner a bit and exposing the h.difformis behind the surging repens.

This is my first planted tank so I am learning not only the El Natural method but also trying to apply some "aquascaping". Although I think that might be a bit too elegant for the reality of my tank, let's call it "selective planting".


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> Hi Fishies,
> 
> Intriguing post and very helpful! Thanks for clearly posting your results and giving us links for more information.
> ...


This was very important to me too. I read quite a bit on it to try and confirm the non-lethal by-products, and that it does in fact quickly dissipate. This H2O2 page that is a pretty decent starting point as it turns out: Hydrogen peroxide From Wikipedia

It almost seems too good to be true.

I suppose there is the chance that it has or will upset something that was in balance somewhere in the substrate...but I am very optimistic.


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

It's been crazy busy at work, so spare time has been whittled down to a minimum. I've been lurking and reading for the last month or more and thought I'd update this thread with my post H2O2 dosing progress.

First of all, the difference was astounding. As in the first pics the thread and stag algae was pretty much wiped out and it has not returned in any level I find troubling. It is still there though, the odd thread on older leaves etc. 

When I first treated the tank with H2O2 there was an explosive growth spurt, especially in the h.polysperma. The leaves were huge and the reason the stuff is a noxious weed in many states was obvious. I would guess that the H2O2 reacted with the soil or something to release a lot of nutrient for the plants to suck up, or maybe just not having algae to complete with.

Now things have slowed down, I've really done little other than feed, top up water, trim back the growth and enjoy for 2 months or so. There is some fine algae and green spot algae, mostly on the front glass easily handled by my mag float. I leave some of it behind for the ottos and japonicas, it’s kind of interesting watching the japonicas jam themselves between the s.subulata and the glass and use their little “hands” to scrape a patch covered with algae completely clean ¼ inch at time.

Overall, the enjoyment to work ratio is about 15:1!

I never could have been as negligent and had a tank I like to look at using other methods. Diana, thank for sharing your methods and your knowledge with this forum. Low tech rocks!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks, Mr. Fishies.

This is just too much pleasure to see Skysdale's Hex tank and now this one. This tank is gorgeous.

As to the hydrogen peroxide, I think that you're onto something that could be really important.

On wikipedia website, I found this critical information:

"In aqueous solution, hydrogen peroxide can oxidize or reduce a variety of inorganic ions. When it acts as a reducing agent, oxygen gas is also produced. In acid solution Fe2+ is oxidized to Fe3+,

*2 Fe2+(aq) + H2O2 + 2 H+(aq) → 2 Fe3+(aq) + 2H2O(l)"*

H202 may be removing free iron (Fe2+) in the water-- the free iron that stimulates algae. Plants that get their iron from the substrate would not be affected. I think that this reaction would go at neutral or slightly allkaline pH for a small amount of free iron. And a small amount of free iron in water is all that algae needs.

Lovely!


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## DLevy (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks Mr.Fishies for an interesting thread, facing similar problems I found your account very interesting.



> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> H202 may be removing free iron (Fe2+) in the water-- the free iron that stimulates algae. Plants that get their iron from the substrate would not be affected. I think that this reaction would go at neutral or slightly allkaline pH for a small amount of free iron. And a small amount of free iron in water is all that algae needs.


I just spent a lot of time reading about different ways of dealing with algae, the two I was most interested in are using H2O2 and overdosing of Flourish Excel. The interesting thing is the Excel does the exact opposite- changing Fe3+ to Fe2+ .

Danny


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## GuppiesRfun (Apr 26, 2005)

I hope it's not too late to applaud your duckweed cure here to algae. I have duckweed and I also have crypt which is fine, but my java moss is plagued by hair algae. I would love to let the duckweed take over and get as thick as it wants since according to you it wont affect the plants. They obviously are getting enough light. I can hand pick off the algae until things are settled! I'll keep an eye on the filter that it doesn't get clogged with duckweed and algae and gunk. It is a Whisper.-Paula


> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> I wouldn't tear the tank down. I've had tanks this bad recover nicely.
> 
> Your plants look fairly healthy, so there's hope. A little tinkering on your part might shift the balance towards the plants.
> ...


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## Matt S. (Nov 3, 2005)

Mr Fishies said:


> ..... I read quite a bit on it to try and confirm the non-lethal by-products, and that it does in fact quickly dissipate. .........
> It almost seems too good to be true.... I suppose there is the chance that it has or will upset something that was in balance somewhere in the substrate...but I am very optimistic.


Hi.. I'm also a big optimist. So I thought I'd resurrect this one for purposes of sharing another H202 experience.

I had a really bad outbreak of hair algae- it covered almost the whole tank floor like a mat. I recalled reading about the H202 fix and went hunting for it. In the end I settled on adding 100 ML (just over 3 US fluid oz) of 3% H202 to a 10 G tank. The results were immediate and spectacular. Within minutes all the algae started to bubble vigorously - it practically boiled! (whatever is happening I'm quite sure it involves alot more than fixing soluble iron) Great - I thought - Magic bullet!

One day later I can report that all the hair algae is losing it's colour and appears stringy and lifeless. As for other plants they seem largely unaffected although there is some crypt melt underway but the bigger more established plants look ok.

As for the inhabitants - well - All the platys from fry to adult appear completely unfazed. However, every single snail has gone belly up and so too has my otto. I killed the algae...and my entire cleaning crew :Cry:

I had read somewhere about inverts being more sensitive and that with Ottos you needed to go light but somehow I missed the definition of "light".

So for those of you like myself that either need to hear the same message repeatedly before it sinks in (or alternately must kill something first) please note that the Lethal dose of H202 for snails and Ottos is somewhere less than 100 Ml of 3%H202/10G. Maybe it would have worked out if I had changed the water - I don't know. I think I'll leave it to someone else to report that experiment. Next time I'll start at 30 ML and work up from there.
Cheers
MattS


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Doc Johnson says you can use 3% peroxide at about 1ml per gallon to increase O2 saturation in an emergency situation where you have low O2 levels or damaged gills, etc. It's supposed to last for about 4 hours. That dose appears to cause a minicyle in regular filtered tanks. I wouldn't doubt it could harm gills at higher levels.


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