# co2 and electronic pH meter



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

I used for the first time an electronic ph meter and found out that I was off from the proper pH readings at least 50% of the time.Regarding the changes I made every day on the needle valve after measuring ph with liquid tester and testing them now with the electronic ph meter seems that I was fluctuating through the week from 15ppm to 40ppm.Take notise of the second decimal place of the electronic meter.This indicates that have of the week I was underdosing.I hope now I'll solve my slight thread algae problem I have.It is the only parameter left that fluctuates so much...
I'd like to hear your comments on this,how are you sure you are within the 30-40ppm by using liquid testers?...


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, good measurement of CO2 is useful then huh?

I nag folks about this issue a lot, but they enjoy chasing nutrients and testing those much more. We all get side tracked, but good CO2 will solve 95% of everyone's issue.

Make sure the stray current does not influence the pH meter reading, turn off all the lights/electrical equipment and see if the meter changes readings.

Use an accurate KH test kit, Lamotte alkalinity kit is pretty cheap and is accurate to about 4ppm KH or about 4.5x more accurate than the common test kits sold. You can double the volume of the water and use 2x as many drops and get 0.5KH degrees units also.

The same can be done for the Lamotte so you can get to about 2ppm accuracy, not bad.

Even then, if the plants don't look right, there is a lull in growth, you have ruled out everything else(fairly straight forward process), adding more CO2 incrementally will do the trick.

Algae and plants make excellent test kits for me personally. They never lie.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks I hope this will solve the algae problem.I do double the water in KH test tube.
How do you think about KH 6 and pH 6.7 to 6.8?


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Should be okay.

You can also bump up the bubble rate slightly and knock it [pH] down a tad more if everything else looks good. Watch fish(in the am) and do this addition of more CO2 _slowly_!!

If you get less than good pearling, BBA etc, you need more CO2.
If the nutrients are in line, the rest should follow, lighting is straight forward as long as you have enough intensity.

So all that's left is CO2 and some time and allow the plants to get growing well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks,I'm using a pH computer this time should help.The question I have now is that my fishes seem to breath heavily in the morning with 30ppm of co2,should I use an air or not?


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

No, try increasing the surface turbulance instead.

You likely don't have enough.
If some CO2 is lost, not a big deal, it's easy to add more CO2, you have less control over O2 (unless you set up a pure O2 tank/DO meters for about 400-600$ like I have.

I also add CO2 only when it's needed: during the lighting cycle only.
Amano, ADA and many Asians do this.

Folks act all conservative abvout dosing the much lesser used nutrients, but they add excess CO2 at night?

Why?
It's simpler for some but if you have a pH controller, CO2 gas tanks etc etc, I see no point.

Chronic long term exposure to high CO2 is not good, having it high for only few hours each day is much less problematic for the fish and allows higher dosing when you need it most.

At night, the CO2 is purged and this also prevents less measurement rigor and need to maintain such a close tolerance on the O2 levels as well as the CO2 levels, basically it's safer to dose semi automated than any other method.

I've always done this.
So has Amano.

I can dose a planted tank without using a pH/KH test method also, so can Amano.

As long as I have some way to see the rate of dosing, say a bubble rate, I can get a rough target and then tweak without ever using a kit.

Sort of EI for CO2.

The important steps are:

1. Add CO2 only when you need it
2. Add it slowly over the course of several days between each bubble rate increase,watch fish etc.
3. BACK OFF when fish are at the surface in the AM.
4. Make sure there is moderate surface movement.
5. Make sure there is high plant biomass

This method and most Asian folks seem to do this, relies on looking at the plants and fish to add enough CO2 rather than reliance on test kits.

They focus on scaping/growing and the plant's responses rather than testing...........

Testing is good for some folks to learn in the beginning and to prove things to themselves that they do not believe.

As far as a method, well, the best scapers in the world don't do a lot of testing...........they look at the plants and scape.

That's what I do and already know what the problem is based on the plant/algae health. Faster, more accurate and easier than any test kit.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

A couple of questions regarding your post.
When you are talking about moderate surface movement do you mean 24/7?
Also the JBL pH controller I have needs reprograming each time the electricity goes off so a timer together with my lights is not an option.What should I do?

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, moderate surface movement, not a torrent, just good movement.

24/7.

The pH controller depending on the type, can be programmeed for several set points, yours and other cheaper models are not able generally to do this but it might be possible rig on up.

I suggest using the monitor function, and not using the plug in control ports that cycle the solenoid or powerhead on/off. So you can still monitor the pH, but you can plug the solenoid into the light timer then or use a separate timer for the solenoid to the turn the CO2 on about 30 mintures before the lights go on and about 45 minutes before they go off at night etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## awrieger (May 20, 2005)

Does 30+ppm CO2 occur in nature at all? Because I'm thinking that even if pH day/night swings happen in nature, are they of this order of magnitude? What sort of daily pH swings are you seeing by doing this, Tom?


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

usefull info we are getting today,
one last thing,last night found out that plant respiration keeps pH 0.02 degrees pH lower than what is set on my controller,this keeps the co2 shut off until half an hour after lights are on.That sounds ok,doesn't it?

Another thing I wanted to ask is that I read some people's articles saying that Tom Barr says pH and co2 fluctuations cause algae,anything you want to tell us about this?Are we talking for 0.05 pH fluctuations or more?

Thanks a lot....


----------



## awrieger (May 20, 2005)

Anafranil said:


> one last thing,last night found out that plant respiration keeps pH 0.02 degrees pH lower than what is set on my controller


Is this is without any surface agitation?


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes,with very little agitation it switces on a couple of times the whole night


----------

