# Noob who has some Qs-- Would love some guidance



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm really excited to start my first NPT that isn't the size of a bowl (i've been doing some experimenting) after I move next month.
I have some questions though that I'm hoping you folks here could answer that plantedtank.net forum could not.

For wild collected soil, do I want something that is heavy in silt, super black, very few roots in it, and has a little clay (when damp it can be formed into malleable balls)? It doesn't have much for rocks or sand or anything in it. It looks like super pure fine black soil. I found a place were I can get a bunch and it looks really good but I don't know if this is the consistency I want.
Do I want larger bits of organic matter? Peat, roots, etc?
This soil is naturally produced, Iowa prairie-made topsoil. Our native grasses can throw down over an inch of new topsoil per year. Iowa literally has the best soil in the world so I would be proud if I could use it in my tanks. 

Can I add in clay that I find in the ground? Or should I use a really old soil like from the top of a hill that is almost yellow in color (clay rich)?

I want a black cover layer but i don't know what is a good option. Turface quit making their charcoal color so I might not be able to get that. Black coated gravel (i can get 5 lb bags for $3.50)? Most black sands are too expensive for me. I'm stingy and don't really care for sand. 

I set up a small outside tank yesterday using the soil mentioned above and I notice bugs in it so I spread it out in baking sheet and popped it in the toaster oven at 500* F. 10 mins later I pulled it out, added water and mixed it up and baked it again. I did this 3 or 4 times and it seriously looks like mineralized top soil now. It got kinda gray and has completely lost its smell.
Did I stumble on a way to make MTS in a night?

I also heard something about steel wool under the substrate in small amounts to provide slow release iron. Has anyone tried this? Does it work?

Will malaysian trumpet snails burrow into the soil layer and drag it up to the surface?

Do any nutrient from the soil enter the water column and feed non substrate rooted plants like anubias nanas and java fern?

Any help or suggestions you all can give me would be fantastic.

P.S. My end goal is to have a low-med light, no dosing, few water changes, slightly acidic, no CO2 tank with as many naturally acquired substances as possible. It is going to be my Iowa jungle tank.

Thanks


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

C'mon, 
Somebody help me out please


----------



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I'll try to help as best as I can.

Normally when it comes to soil, try to go for plain topsoil. I don't know how the soil is that you are describing but it sounds okay to me. You'll want to remove twigs, bark and stones from it before using it. I don't know if a lot of clay in the soil would be a good thing though. I had a few small bits of clay in the soil I use but I normally just remove it when I put it into the tank.

I don't know if it would be good to use a coated gravel in these set ups. Most people tend to go for natural rock and that's all I've ever used. Have you ever checked out places like Big Al's? They tend to have a lot of different natural gravels in many colors from light to dark for good prices.

_"Did I stumble on a way to make MTS in a night?"_.
What exactly is that suppose to mean?  I hope that you don't plan on putting any soil that you want to use in your tank in the oven first. I could be wrong but that might kill a lot of bacteria that's naturally found in dirt.
_
"I also heard something about steel wool under the substrate in small amounts to provide slow release iron. Has anyone tried this? Does it work?"_
I personally wouldn't do that. Some municipal and well water have iron in it and the last thing you want is for there to be too much iron in your tank.

MTS will burrow into the soil but they do not bring it up to the surface. I have them in my betta's tank and they have never brought any of the dirt up with them. They are a great addition to these types of tanks.

I don't think the nutrients from the soil will feed the plants in the water column. That's why fish wastes and uneaten food is a good thing because it adds nutrients to both the soil and water column.

Btw, I don't know how well you would be able to keep a low tech tank that's a bit acidic. Normally plants like a bit of water hardness and the pH tends to be more neutral to alkaline when the water is a bit on the hard side. What is your GH, KH as well as your pH from the tap?

I hope that was of some help to you.


----------



## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

the black soil sounds like it would be fine. you want to remove the sticks/roots/rocks etc. you can buy turface from aquariumplants.com, but i wouldnt use it as a cap because it is too light weight. plain black aquarium gravel would work.

never heard of the steel wool trick.

I cant tell if its mud the MTS drag up or just mulm buildup. either way its not much.

i have anubias that are not rooted in the soil, & i dose nothing (but co2) and they do fine (for now).


----------



## Crispino Ramos (Mar 21, 2008)

top soil with clay should be a good source of nutrients and you can use gravel over it. I don't think the steel wool is El Natural but if you prefer to use it, MTS could not cause it to come up - but the uprooting of plants will.


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone.
The soil I found doesn't actually have any twigs, roots, or rocks in it. It is seriously pure black loam.
I am guessing that baking the soil would kill the bacteria in it but I figured it might work like nitrifying bacteria, they get into the tank somehow and the species that can do well do. I don't know if my baking and rewetting it really made mineralized topsoil (MTS) but it seriously looks like the end result of the mineralized top soil method. It might make a decent substitute.
I love malaysian trumpet snails but I've only used them in graveless betta bowls (one per gallon) and plain gravel tanks.

I know that ammonia takes the form of ammonium at pH of 7 or less and that plants use ammonium instead of first converting nitrate back into ammonium soooo I just assumed that keeping a slightly acidic pH would be better for plants. I also wanted to keep fish that prefer slightly acidic conditions.
If I am way off let me know. 
If it isn't that big of a deal to have softer water than I probably won't peat filter my water changes like I was planning. Maybe just whenever I notice the pH staying high throughout the night.

I will have bogwood in the tank so that should soften the water a little bit.

Our tap water comes out at about 9.5 pH and drops to 7.8-8.2 after about an hour. Its pretty much liquid rock when it comes to hardness. 
Sounds like your dumping gravel in the sink when you turn on the faucet.  jk 

Is it really necessary to add calcium to the substrate during setup or is that for folks who want harder water?

Is it beneficial to have some fine sand mixed into the soil?

Is there black gravel that isn't coated/painted?

Sprinkle of peat or not on the bottom of the tank?

Has anyone ever used the Black Diamond sand blasting media for a cap? I've heard mixed things but I really want a nice dark black substrate. Any other suggestions?

Thank you all so much


----------



## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

Franco said:


> Thanks everyone.
> The soil I found doesn't actually have any twigs, roots, or rocks in it. It is seriously pure black loam.
> I am guessing that baking the soil would kill the bacteria in it but I figured it might work like nitrifying bacteria, they get into the tank somehow and the species that can do well do. I don't know if my baking and rewetting it really made mineralized topsoil (MTS) but it seriously looks like the end result of the mineralized top soil method. It might make a decent substitute.
> I love malaysian trumpet snails but I've only used them in graveless betta bowls (one per gallon) and plain gravel tanks.
> ...


the calcium and such is sprinkled underneath the soil to prevent the soil layer from becoming too acidic. i didnt add any to my tanks and they are fine.

i prefer soft acidic water. my main tank has a PH of 5.4 - 5.6, 0 -1 dKH, & around 4 dGH. i have no problems that are out of the ordinary & i can grow almost anything i try to.
I have the same problems with my tap water as you, mine might possibly be worse. lots of limestone. thats why i use r/o.

i read something tom barr posted somewhere that baking the soil is equivilant to the series of wettings and dryings. though i've never done either. just dumped it straight into the tank(s).

i've never used black diamond, but heard it can be rough on bottom dwellers.


----------



## KraKen (Jul 17, 2008)

I think that baking the wet soil several times would be almost equivalent to mineralising it. Either way you're basically coating the soil particles with the minerals dissolved in the water by evaporating that water, except when you bake it the process is sped up by the heat which also kills the bacteria in the soil.

I wouldn't worry about non-rooted plants having a lack of nutrients, I don't dose anything but fishfood and my floating plants, ferns, anubias and mosses are thriving.


----------



## Crispino Ramos (Mar 21, 2008)

You might find black gravel from a sand and gravel supply store. They can sell gravel in 5 gallon or 10 gallon sacks.


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

I have noticed that a lot of the NPTs I have seen are not sloped from back to front? Is there a reason for this or just that the aquascaper doesn't care?

I am likely to slope mine and possibly build up one back corner even further.

Should I use rocks or styrofoam? Can I make a wall of rocks to hold up the substrate at the back of the tank?

Is PVC inert? How about hot glue?

Thanks everyone


----------



## Crispino Ramos (Mar 21, 2008)

Sloping the substrate from back to front helps show off the background plants just like a sloped theater stage. It also allows the detritus to slide forward ('downstage') for easy vacuuming. It might also help direct the water current down the bottom of the water column.

Rocks would look nice in the midground and slows erosion of the substrate from the back to the front.

PVC and hot glue are inert.


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Thank you!
Should I place rockwork on the bottom glass and then put the substrate around it or set it on top so that it doesn't stir everything when I inevitably decide I want to move it? lol
Is there another material I should be thinking about for making tiers or raising up the back?
I don't want to just pile up the substrate because it would be too thick.

Just curious, but can you buy just Potassium and Iron at garden/nursery stores and dissolve it for dosing?
I know you can get dry ferts online but they seem outrageously expensive.


----------



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Franco said:


> Thank you!
> Should I place rockwork on the bottom glass and then put the substrate around it or set it on top so that it doesn't stir everything when I inevitably decide I want to move it? lol
> Is there another material I should be thinking about for making tiers or raising up the back?
> I don't want to just pile up the substrate because it would be too thick.
> ...


I can't help you with the first part but I can about the fertilizers.

You can buy fertilizers in powder form at hydroponics shops as well as places like Big Al's that often have them in liquid form. Checking out places like this would be a lot cheaper then buying online.


----------



## Crispino Ramos (Mar 21, 2008)

Place the rock on top of the substrate, fill in the bottom part of the rock that's uneven with more substrate to prop it stable. You don't bury the rock all the way down the bottom glass due to risk of glass breakage. In time, the rock will slowly sink in the substrate and the plants around it will ultimately hide parts of it.

You can buy iron chelate in garden centers. I don't think the potash in garden centers are soluble powders. You can sprinkle some potash powder on the bottom of the tank prior to adding your substrate.


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Cool! Thanks.

When planting new plants do you trim up the roots a bit?

Do you plant the roots into the soil or laid across the top and then covered with the cap or buried just in the cap and left to grow its way down to the soil?

I've been planting little things in my experimental deck nano NPTs both before water and after.

I put the cap on first and then dug it up to get at the soil-- stupid. I should have put the plant on the soil and then covered it with the cap right?

I found some wild vallisneria/wild celery/eelgrass/etc yesterday and planted it last night. In the pond it was growing close to shore (because of the grass carp) and in pure clay. I have heard that you should plant vall in plain gravel but obviously that isn't necessary considering where I found it. Any comments?
Does vall do well in NPT or is it too nutrient heavy.

I scooped up a gallon plastic bag of the substrate at this pond and it appears to be super fine clay and silt. It takes a while for the clay to settle down. Not a substrate to stick in the NPT?

Thanks!


----------



## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

How do you all plant your rooted plants?
Thanks


----------

