# Substrate gravel Question



## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I've just recently finished the book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium." It was very informative but I feel like I was a little too eager to start and rushed through Chapter 11 the Practical Aquarium set up. I must have over looked the finer details of the gravel section and chose the bagged pea gravel pebbles from Home Depot which is bigger than the 2-4mm that Ms. Walstad recommend. I only came across this error when I developed some water algae issues and reread some chapters (I've bought a Green Killing Machine UV sterilizer and added activated carbon to the quick filter.) I feel like I have followed everything else that was suggested pretty closely. I've used organic potting mix and layered the bottom ~ 1"-1 1/2" deep and I've planted heavily with a lot of variety. My water is soft and alkaline but I've added a large agatized coral with calcium deposits on it. I have an LED light with red and green diodes on order for the plants (Beamworks EA full spectrum) and the tank has been running for approximately 1 week. I'm also using the Aquaclear 50 power head with the quick filter like the book has suggested. I have some Cherry Barbs, a betta, and Corydoras in it already and they are doing well so I've ordered five Philippine Blue Angelfish online and they will be here Wednesday. What is your opinion about my gravel error? It was layered approximately 1.5" on top of my organic substrate but I've removed some to make it more like an inch. Should I tear down the tank and start over with smaller gravel or should I just add some 2-4mm gravel to pack the holes? Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Secondary question, my newly planted Vallisneria, Dwarf sagittaria, mini alternanthera and lobelia are starting to get paper thin leaves that are becoming see-through do you think it's because of the water clarity issues? I feel like I will lose them to die off soon.

List of plants:

Alternanthera Bettzickiana Red, Anacharis, Bacopa Carolinana, Cardamine Lyrata, Cryptacorn Wenditii, Dwarf Ssagittaria sublata, Creeping jenny, Lobelia Cardinalis, Needle leaf Ludwigia, Ludwigia Ovalis, Vallisneria Asiatica, java fern.

Example of the gravel: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-...VoINaBR18YQH-EAQYBCABEgKL_PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Soil: 
Harvest Organic Raised Potting Mix; total nitrogen 0.10%, Available Phosphate 0.05%, Soluable Potash 0.05%, Slow released Nitrogen from Poultry litter 0.07% 
Ingredients: Aged forest products, Sphagnum peat moss, Ground Dolomite fieldstone


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The pictures help a great deal.

It bothers me that _S. subulata_ is getting paper thin leaves. It could be that there's no calcium in water. It may take awhile for the soil and coral you've added to release Ca into the water. And/or it could be that soil is going severely anaerobic. Probably that 1.5" of soil is pouring lots of nutrients and DOC into water and root area. You need to address this.

Water changes will help. I would remove 75% of the water and then only fill the tank half-way with water. This will make it a 50% water change in all. You've got a lot of empty space above those plants that's just going to fill with green-water algae. You may need to do a couple more water changes in the new week or two. Reducing water level will make it easier. The shallower water should give plants better access to the overhead lights. Once the plants reach the surface, you can fill the tank to the brim.

Right before you do any water changes, poke the soil layer gently with a sharp object (opened paper clip or long, thin nail). This will introduce oxygen into the soil layer AND release some of the soil's DOC. That could be what is hurting the _S. subulata_, etc.

If that rock is resting on the soil/gravel, it is suffocating the soil layer inducing fermentation, to release of all kinds of organic acids. I would remove the rock temporarily. (Rocks should rest on the bottom glass of tank, never to cover the soil layer.)

I couldn't tell from your picture whether the stem plants were all bunched together. Make sure that stem plants are spread out a little so each stem has its own access to light and nutrients.

The more of the gravel you can remove, the better. Use a spoon to "surgically" remove it. The roots of those small plants will have trouble winding their way through a deep layer of gravel. The gravel is only to hold the soil layer and plants down. Now, that your soil has been submerged a week, it probably will not float to surface when you mess around with substrate.

I don't think you need to tear down the tank. You've done a beautiful job of planting. We all have to work out problems in an initial setup. The tank is only a week old. It's good you asked for help in a timely manner.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I really appreciate the advise Ms. Walstad. I have spent the better part of 4 hours following it to the best of my ability. I did the 75% water change, removed a bunch of gravel, lowered the big rock onto the glass bottom, Removed the plant bunches and planted the individual stems, then filled the tank back up to about 75% capacity. I had to keep the quick filter submerged slightly above the bottom so that the power head can flow which placed the outlet above the 50% mark. I took step by step picture to show my progress; I'll post them tomorrow.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Here are pictures of the new plant distribution. I separated the bunches and planted individual stems.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

MUCH better! Thinning of the gravel layer and better spacing of plants will be a big help. 

Notice the tea-colored water. That organic soil is now in midst of rampant decomposition. I would be prepared to do more soil poking and water changes. Once the plants start growing and water clears, you can relax. 

Is this a 75 gal tank?


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I defiantly will do the water changes and soil manipulation as you have suggested. Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

Yes it is a 75 gallon tank.

After spreading out the plants I think most of them will make it. The Needle Leaf Ludwigia looks pretty stringy and The lobelia cardinalis looks like it has seen better days but the Mini Alternanthera Reineckiii has melted away. The root balls are still in the soil so I hope they come back...they were tissue cultures and small to begin with.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Well, I hope that my advice helps. 

I missed the key fact that it's a 75 gal. For a big tank like this, I would have included large, good-growing rooted plants (i.e., 2-3 Amazon swords, Aponogeton, or a Red Tiger Lotus, etc). They would better fill up a big tank like this and take advantage of that rich soil layer. Here, you have the opportunity to show off some big beauties.

Let's hope the Vallisneria does well.

I would definitely reduce the water level until you get a larger biomass growing well in this big tank.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I did not think of the large plants. I thought my background plants would do the trick but I really like your idea and plant selection especially the Red Tiger Lotus. 

I will lower the level some more and then I will see how everything grows and where the tank wants me to add the Tiger Lotus....thanks


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

That's the spirit! I've always wanted to grow _Aponogeton boivinianus_, but never had a tank big enough.


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## Dude (Nov 14, 2018)

Chris829 said:


> The lobelia cardinalis looks like it has seen better days


I wouldn't worry too much about that one. In my experience it's a very hardy plant that can take a lot of abuse/neglect and still recover nicely. It should be interesting to see how it fills out in such a large tank.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

If you have access to floating plants, probably it would not hurt to put some in this tank.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Dude said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about that one. In my experience it's a very hardy plant that can take a lot of abuse/neglect and still recover nicely. It should be interesting to see how it fills out in such a large tank.


I put like 6 in the the tank initially but I have one that has hung on. It's not growing much but has put on a few new leaves. I think it will make it. If it does I'll give it a few friends.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

zolteeC said:


> If you have access to floating plants, probably it would not hurt to put some in this tank.


I was thinking of adding some frogsbit but I'd have to order it online. I can't find any LFS that sell it. The green water algae problem has disappeared after I bought the UV sterilizer and lowered the water level Like Ms. Walstad suggested. I also added a FInnex 24/7 Planted + and I'm running it at 60% white and 20% blue 100% red, 100% green during the brightest period.

The water is still a bit tanic even with frequent water changes and some activated carbon in the quick filter.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I figure that I would report back and give an update. I'm just over five weeks into this adventure and I'm still having trouble with plant growth. If you read my first post you can see the type of potting mix I used (organic) and after corresponding with Ms. Walstad I guess I went a little deep with both the soil (1.5") and gravel (1.5"). I listened to the advice I received and removed much of the gravel to leave a thin cap. I'm also frequently poking the soil and releasing many gas bubbles. The water level is lowered and I'm changing the water a few times a week. The fish seem to be thriving and I've only lost one small Pseudomugil luminatus a few days ago. My Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates are 0 according to the test kit I have. My PH is about 7.6 and I have a whole house water softener. It seems like the Anacharis is growing, The Dwarf Ssagittaria sublata has not lost ground but is not sprouting new growth and same with Vallisneria Asiatica. the java fern is looking the same as the day it first went in but noting new showing up. I've tried twice with Alternanthera Reineckii Mini Red tissue cultures and they both melted into nothing with the most recent last week. As a matter of fact I've lost every tissue culture I put in the tank (bucephilandra, Ludwigia Arcuata, POGOSTEMON HELFERI, and the ARM.) The REINECKII Bettzickiana is still holding on but barley. All but 3 stems of my Bacopa Carolinana melted but the remainders seem to be taking root and I see the beginning of new growth at the top. I lost most of the stems of Needle leaf Ludwigia but the remaining two started growing and sprouting side shoots so I just planted a new bunch to help it along. The Rotala Green that I put in about two weeks ago Is doing the best and I see a bunch of growth so I added Rotala colorata yesterday. I still have one of the origional 6 Lobelia Cardinalis holding on and it has a few tiny new leaves on the stem so I might add more if it continues to grow. The weird thing that I recently experienced was last week when I did a significant water change and went crazy with the soil poking. Before that activity my Ludwigia Ovalis and Ludwigia Repense were putting on some light green growth and looked good. A week after that water change and soil aggravation most of the Ovalis's stems darkened and turned mushy which caused the new growth to fall off and I lost some tops. My POGOSTEMON HELFERI 'DOWNOI' melted away and one of my Cryptacorn Wenditii bronze and Gecko Green lost most of their leaves (the others are ok.) I'm Guessing that I released some substrate acid or toxins but it was a set back and disappointing because I'm trying so hard to succeed. I really did read Ms. Walstad's book but I guess I should have paid closer attention to he gravel and substrate part. I really thought I read 1" to 1.5" of substrate and so I just filled it even with the top of the black plastic piece that is on the bottom of the 75 gallon aquarium which is around 1.5" at the inside. I hope this crazy soil decomposition stabilizes after the 6 week mark like I've read because I've would hate to tear this down and start over. I've spent so much money in plants not to mention the fish (six angels, 6 panda corydoras, 7 Pseudomugil luminatus, 1 betta, and I have about 2 dozen Cardinal tetras in my Quarantine tank waiting to go in. Speaking of my Quarantine tank I have not experienced the trouble with that one. This site/you people have provided me with a bunch of great info. I started My quarantine tank about two weeks after my 75 gallon. The QT is 30 gallons and I used the same substrate soil with a few exceptions. I soked it in a 5 gallon bucket for 2 weeks removing the large chunks of compost and changed the water daily. I added about 1 inch of the soaked soil to the tank and mixed bagged play sand to minerialize it. For the first 2 weeks I had some nitrite and nitrate problems but water changes helped it and now everything is zero. The water is crystal clear and the plants are taking off, including the ARM tissue culture which has failed in my other tank twice. Like I said I hope my big tanks stabilizes. I'm attaching a pictures of both tanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Truly sorry to hear about your troubles when you have worked so hard and spent so much. Honestly, if conditions were right, you should have had a tankful of plants by now!

Have you measured the GH? You say you added crushed coral, but that may not have compensated for your soft water.

Make sure that your GH is above GH = 8. The lack of hardwater nutrients, especially calcium, can cause plant death.

I would maybe focus on the 30 gal. Increase the water hardness in that tank and see if you start getting a *true* increase in plant growth.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I just bought a GH/KH test kit on Amazon and it will be here Wednesday. I'll get back to you and let you know what it reads. Thanks again for the advise.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

While I'm waiting for the GH test kit to come in I was able to measure the total dissolved solids and electrical conductivity of the water. 

TDS: 307
EC: 653
Temp: 77.4 f

I'm curious what the GH test will reveal. There is dolomite in the potting mix I used and I have a very large piece of agatized coral in the tank for my one piece of hardscape. I was thinking that would suffice for my calcium but the we shall see.

Last night I kept thinking about this possible calcium deficiency and kept coming back to my water softener. I live in Florida and my water was very hard. I lost my water heater's heating element a few times in the past 10 years and I kept getting so much lime scale build up in all the faucets so the plumber suggested a whole house water softener. I know that replaces the Calcium and mag with sodium Ions but haven't thought of this effecting my aquarium until now. I have read that the sodium left in the water after the process is about that of a slice of bread but would that amount stunt my plant growth?


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Ok I admit...I'm starting to obsess over this water issue. I went out to the garage and think I was able to bypass my water softener. I turned some valves off and ran the first outside hose connection. The softener did not blink "softening" like it normally does so I think I have my good old hard water from the county. I just did a 15 gallon water change so it is relatively small compared to my 75 gallon capacity. I don't want to change the water chemistry too abruptly so I will do this type of change once a week for a month so that I can completely change the tank water. I will also test the GH when the kit comes in Wednesday and report back with the results. I this doesn't help the plant growth I don't know what will.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Chris829 said:


> I know that replaces the Calcium and mag with sodium Ions but haven't thought of this affecting my aquarium until now. I have read that the sodium left in the water after the process is about that of a slice of bread but would that amount stunt my plant growth?


A slice of bread? The high TDS reading could be from excess sodium in the water. Not so good for plants, especially combined with a possible lack of other nutrients, not just calcium. I think the water softening could be what's causing the problem. AND it sounds like you are doing what's required to fix it.

If it's any comfort, I have always talked/written about my hard well water with a GH of 13-17. (This was based on measurement I made 15 years ago.) Recently, though, I measured hardness and was shocked to discover that I now have a GH = 3, which is very soft. Turned out is has been raining here in North Carolina a lot for last few years. Apparently, the constant rain has leached out all the minerals from the soil. I've now started adding hardwater nutrients to the tank for my guppies, snails, RCS, and plants.

The message for both of us is that you just can't assume.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I got the hardness test kit in and it shows that I have a Gh of 6 and Kh of 9. I'll do a 10 gallon water change with the un softened water to see if it brings the gh closer to the 8 mark


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The Sodium salt in your water softener could be the problem.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Thanks...I was racking brain about why I kept having the trouble and I think I came to that conclusion just the other day. I was able to figure out how to bypass the softener and I did a 25 gallon water change the other day. I'm doing a 10 gallon change today as well. I'm going to test the gh again and I'll see if it comes up some more.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Ok...I've changed out 15 more gallons today and 25 gallons two days ago which puts me just above 50% of the tanks capacity. My Gh is now 7 and the kh is 8. 
I was also able to test the water that was bypassed around the softener which has a gh of 13 and kh of 8. The water that comes out of the softener has a gh of 3 maybe 2. The solution was so light after the first drop and it might have turned very light green on the second drop but more definite green on the 3rd drop. The kh was 8 . I think this is the problem. I'll do another 15 or 20 gallon change in a few days and I'm hoping that will get me above 8 like Ms. Walstad suggested. I'm very hopeful that this will work and my plants will finally take off.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good luck!


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## SamXp (Mar 12, 2020)

How are things going? You worked so hard and it's been a month, so I'm hoping no news is good news!


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Thanks for asking SamXp. The water has been completely changed out and then some, so it’s all good old unsoftened tap water. The water parameters are: PH 7.6, GH 9, KH 8, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites. The fish seem to be thriving but the only plants that are growing well is the Vallisneria Asiatica, Anacharis, and the newly added Red Tiger Lotus (I just added a Red Ozelot Sword and have hope that it will flourish.) The Cryptocoryne Wendtii, Rotalla colorata, Java Fern, and the Dwarf Sagittaria seem to be growing but ever so slowly. The Green Rotalla wants to grow horizontally so that it can attach to the substrate. I’ve lost most of my Ludwigia Ovalis and Repens. The Needle Leaf Ludwigia, Bacopa and Lobellia are holding on but the growth has stagnated. I’ve also lost all of my mermaid weed, Alternantheria Bettzickiana and Alternantheria Renineckii Mini. I’ve planted the ARM tissue cultures 3 times in this tank and they have mealted each time. The thing I can’t figure out is why are the pieces of Ludwigia and ARM that I’ve put in my quarantine tank thriving. The QT is basically same set up but I added play sand to the soil and soaked it for 2 weeks before start up. The light is different as well the QT has a Beamworks FSLED and my 75 gallon has a FINNEX Planted 24/7. My wife keeps telling me to be patient and wait for the stem plants to establish because I gave them a rocky start with the softened water. I’m starting to think that I will not be able to grow stem plants in this tank. Some days I want to take them all out and just add root feeding/rhizome type plants.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Do you think that I need to add liquid fertilizer to the water column for the stem plants? I was hoping not to have to do this because I don't want to promote algae growth. Knock on wood I have not had a problem with it as of yet.


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## zahtar (Sep 29, 2019)

I am not very experienced regarding NPTs but the way I see it, we need to achieve balances. The main balance being between the rate of supplying/replenishing nutrients and the rate at which they are used by our plants. Therefore, I believe liquid and other types of fertilizers come in when we need to supply our plants with nutrients at a rate livestock food can’t. In which cases and for what reasons would that occur, I am not certain. I can guess, but I’ll better leave it to more experienced members to clarify.

Is your doubt regarding specifically stem plants, or rooted plants in general? Rooted plants have an important role to play oxygenating the soil. You mentioned that your cryptocorynes are doing good, so you probably won’t have to worry about that. I’d expect you need to wait more for stem plants to establish. Some species eventually will. Let’s hope it’s those you like most!

I share your question regarding the fertilizer, so I’ll subscribe to the thread and wait for more experienced users to make suggestions.

Good luck!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

When I had a lot of rotalla green I had some which always grew along the substrate, making a good carpet, and some that grew upright. I couldn't see any difference in the two types, but only those that always grew along the substrate would do it, and never would grow upright.

It looks like that very interesting rock is sitting on top of the substrate. If so, you need to do something - like setting it directly on the tank glass - or you will likely have a problem later with hydrogen sulfide stinking up the tank and killing the plant roots. It took me several tries before I was willing to accept this as being inevitable.


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

Thanks for the input Hoppy. If that's the case with the green Rotalla I might remove it from the background and replace it with something else.

Ms Walstad brought up the rock on the substrate issue when I started this post. I was able to lower the rock onto the glass bottom when I removed a majority of the gravel so that the substrate could get more O2. The rock has a few protrusions that make contact with the glass and I was able to remove most of the organic potting mix from underneath it. Whatever is under the rock is mostly just some pea gravel. Do you think that will still cause a Hydrogen Sulfide buildup?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The first times I had problems with rocks, etc. sitting on the substrate I was not using soil, just coarse sand. That happened long before I knew anything about taking care of an aquarium. My first aquarium had a castle, etc. sitting on the substrate - like everyone had then. I found black, stinking sand under it when I took it out to clean it. That persuaded me to give up my beautiful castle. Later I had the same problem with rocks laying on the substrate. That persuaded me to not use anything sitting on the substrate. Years later, after I joined a few forums to learn something about what I was trying to do, I ran into the same problem with rocks on the substrate with plants in the tank. (I was a slow learner!)


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## Chris829 (Mar 24, 2020)

I get what you're putting down Hoppy and I will not be too hard headed. I do really like that large piece of agatized coral but I will let it go if it will encourage more favorable growing conditions. Since I've lowered the rock and set it onto the glass as previously instructed. I will try this one last thing before I remove it from the tank. I was reading a post from DWalstad in the fertilizing section of this forum that "UV light does make iron more available. At the same time, however, UV rapidly degrades the chelator. Without the UV, iron fertilizers would last much longer and work better for plants." It got me thinking and I did have a green killing machine UV sterilizer running 24/7. I just took it out, cleaned it, and put it back in the box to save for a rainy day. I'll give it a few weeks to see if removing the sterilizer helps. If there is no noticeable improvement the rock will be returned to my planter.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Chris829 said:


> The rock has a few protrusions that make contact with the glass and I was able to remove most of the organic potting mix from underneath it. Whatever is under the rock is mostly just some pea gravel. Do you think that will still cause a Hydrogen Sulfide buildup?


The rock should be fine now that it's resting directly on the glass and a little gravel--both inert. (There's no big mass of soil bacteria underneath to "smother.") Also, the rock will prevent the downward percolation of organic matter.

As to UV sterilizers, I save mine only for when I need it--introduction of newly purchased fish or to get rid of stubborn cases of green water algae.


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## Jane of Upton (Jul 28, 2005)

Chris829 said:


> The Needle Leaf Ludwigia, Bacopa and Lobellia are holding on but the growth has stagnated. I've also lost all of my mermaid weed, Alternantheria Bettzickiana and Alternantheria Renineckii Mini. I've planted the ARM tissue cultures 3 times in this tank and they have mealted each time. The thing I can't figure out is why are the pieces of Ludwigia and ARM that I've put in my quarantine tank thriving. .


These are not the easiest plants, especially for a NEW setup. Stem plants, IME, do better when introduced to a system that is at least starting to settle in. I've generally held off on the stem plants until the "roller coaster of early days" in the tank is winding down. Mermaid weed is nearly ALWAYS grown emersed, and does not handle the transition to submerged growth well. Or was that one of the T/C plants?

I think the recent pictures of your 75g tank show a LOT of improvement! Re-visit your first series of photos, and you'll see how much better you're doing! I think your tank is looking really pleasing! I know it can be frustrating, and you certainly have put a LOT of work into this, but IMO that is THE hardest part of using soil substrates - the initial break-in period. Hang in there!

As to why your QT tank is comparatively "easy", well, that's just proof that you learn quickly - your second setup EVER (I assume) is benefiting from your experience.

Really, you've kinda jumped into the deep end - a LARGE tank, starting with T/C and Not-The-Easiest plants, and the water softener issue to boot! I think you're doing really well for all of those challenges. I "cut my teeth" with soil under-layers years ago, but I started with a 10g and planted with rooted watersprite and crypts, and THAT was a really wild ride as I learned. Watersprite planted in the substrate will take over a tank w/ soil. Great at first, but then you pull up the entire bottom of your tank like a solid mat when you go to move it.... sigh.

Now is a great time to pull up a stool, and really WATCH your tank. Do you see a difference in the areas that have a stronger flow? Is there a rhyme or reason to the direction that the Vals send out runners? Really get to know how a new leaf emerges and unfurls. Can you find evidence that those crypts (known to be slow growers) are settling in as their roots find that lovely soil layer? Once they do that, they'll start putting out more leaves, and eventually, daughter plants/runners.

Keep up the good work!
-Jane


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