# soil?



## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

I have an 18G and a 10G that I am going to be setting up again after a move and am debating trying them as NPTs. I made a stab at this once before with potting soil but discovered the potting soil that supposedly didn't have added ferts turned out to have ferts so the whole tank was pretty much a disaster.

Whatever soil goes into the tank will come out of a bag -- top soil or potting soil or whatever -- because I don't have a source for topsoil not in a bag. I'd like to know what those of you with successful NPT tanks are using for soil. Brand names appreciated.  

Liz


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

I've had the best success with generic top soil. I think I bought the top soil at either Walmart or Lowe's. My efforts to find a generic potting soil weren't as successful because there is a lot of bark in them around here. The top soil has been in use for about a year without causing problems. Good luck on your new tanks!


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I agree with Catherine. Brand names are exactly what you want to avoid. Get the cheapest topsoil Home Depot or Lowes carries. The one at my Home Depot comes in a white bag with red lettering. It's about $1.50 for a 40lb. bag. The soil should seem a bit sandy in texture. 

I also recommend you find a source for natural clay and add some of that to the soil. This helps to bind nutrients well and also acts as an iron source for the plants. For tanks that small I would only use about 1/6 of a pound of clay or so. You should be able to find it at any decent pottery shop.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'd like to add a little to the good advice given by others:

Set up a bottle test first. Wait a week and measure water ammonia and look for major water discoloration.

Meanwhile open up the bag to the air, and let the soil bacteria work while you wait. Remember that most soils contain plentiful bacteria that will break down some of the chemicals and organic matter that could cause problems when you set up the tank.

For example, one hobbyist had problems with one recently purchased soil. Several months later, he used soil from the same bag and had no problems. I'm sure that the bacteria had been busily composting during the intervening months.

Remember that soil is alive.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

dwalstad said:


> Meanwhile open up the bag to the air, and let the soil bacteria work while you wait. Remember that most soils contain plentiful bacteria that will break down some of the chemicals and organic matter that could cause problems when you set up the tank.
> 
> For example, one hobbyist had problems with one recently purchased soil. Several months later, he used soil from the same bag and had no problems. I'm sure that the bacteria had been busily composting during the intervening months.
> 
> Remember that soil is alive.


This sounds very similar to the mineralizing process I use. The only difference being that the soil gets soaked and has the water changed in order to 'rinse' out any possible fertilizers or other bad stuff.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Here near Oklahoma City, I've had good luck with the Home Depot brand called earthgrow. The cheapo Lowes brand resulted in ammonia for a month and gasses bubbling out for like a year.


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## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks everyon! When I make a trip to the land of the chain stores -- I live in the hinterlands these days -- I'll be looking for some el cheapo topsoil.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Earthgrow. Thank you. I will look for that for myself. 

I will have to build up some confidence with NPT's before I am comfortable using the rich soil that I have in my Organic garden. It is 12-24" deep with chopped up leaves and Mel Bartholomew's recipe for 'perfect soil' from his old book in addition to the black gold that I have added over the past 18 months. I have this summer's 'new compost' to add to the garden for the winter. Should I get some soil from the garden BEFORE I try to use some for a soil test? 

Soil test, huh? If I take soil from my garden and put it in a large glass jar; how long do I wait and what am I waiting for? Turbidity is basically cloudy water yes? Just give it time to clear up yes? And when I am all done waiting and take a water sample to the local fish store, what do I want to ask them to test it for? 

And before adding fish, are regular snails good for improving the 'alive' soil with the 1 1/2 inch substrate on top of it? Are MTS better? 

I love the book, but live people online are priceless! (Diana I have read your book as many times as my Series 7 Book. And I still learn something new each time I read it. Although I end up getting sucked into it for hours at a time!  )


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## wiste (Feb 10, 2006)

> The cheapo Lowes brand resulted in ammonia for a month and gasses bubbling out for like a year..


I was under the impression that the gasses bubbling out was due to the intial setup and how water is added to the tank.

In the past if I laid dry soil, covered it with gravel and just filled the tank, there would be a problem with gases. I had not considered the possibility that it could be the soil itself. Adding some water then some soil iteratively seems to help avoid this problem.

My preference of soil is to use topsoil. 
It does seem to be more easily obtained in the warmer months.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I use the cheapest generic topsoil that I can find at a big box store. It has no additives, and I soak it for a few weeks before I use it, to get rid of most of the organics. It often bubbles for a while.

There is a big difference between potting soil and top soil. I tried potting soil in my first natural tank; the plants grew well but the algae grew much better, I think new algae species developed there . I haven't had similar experiences in tanks with topsoil, and the plants still grow well.

Bill


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Jimbo205 said:


> Soil test, huh? If I take soil from my garden and put it in a large glass jar; how long do I wait and what am I waiting for? Turbidity is basically cloudy water yes? Just give it time to clear up yes? And when I am all done waiting and take a water sample to the local fish store, what do I want to ask them to test it for?
> 
> And before adding fish, are regular snails good for improving the 'alive' soil with the 1 1/2 inch substrate on top of it? Are MTS better?
> 
> ...


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> I wish hobbyists would buy a 20 lb bag of soil, use a little for a 2 gal Betta Bowl, and see how it works. If the soil works well, then use it to set up a larger tank. The soil in the bag (exposed to air) should only get better as time goes by.


 I can do that.

And as I was adding compost to my 24" deep 5'x5' square garden for the wintertime I took a look at the soil at 2300 hours. It has vermiculite in it. I forgot that is part of Mel Bartholomew's 'old' recipe for 'perfect gardening soil'. Oh well. I don't think that would work would it?

Diana, you would LOVE THAT GUY. The Official Site of Square Foot Gardening and Mel Bartholomew, Originator and Author I can imagine the two of you 'talking' by email for HOURS. You are both great.

By the way, I finally took the dive!

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...3479-jimo205s-el-naturale-10-gallon-tank.html

Jimbo FINALLY put DIRT INTO HIS TANK! You are right in your book. It is a complete leap of faith. No other way about it.

Now it seems funny when other members talk about 'washing' their substrate.


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## iris600 (Feb 12, 2004)

The problem I've been having with finding an acceptable soil had been hardness issues. I already have hard water (both GH and kh over 10). I have an RO unit that I use on some tanks, but for the bottle test I used tapwater. Every single soil I've tried (lowes, walmart, backyard, forest) has caused a rise in the gh/kh.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

iris600, I have heard that peat moss can help to lower that. What is your pH? 

I can't resist asking. Where in Upstate NY are you? Would you be anywhere within 50 miles of the Capital Region? 

And your profile is great! 

I think I will be the one asking you questions about Aquatic plants and Outdoor gardening.


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## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

I think concerns over high KH/GH are largely misplaced with the possible exception of growing Tonina species and a handful of others. I'm now living in an area with water GH=3, KH = 2.5 after moving from an area with water that was hard -- GH and KH both running anywhere from 8 to 15 depending on the time of year. Everything grew best when the KH and GH were highest.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Satirica said:


> I think concerns over high KH/GH are largely misplaced with the possible exception of growing Tonina species and a handful of others. I'm now living in an area with water GH=3, KH = 2.5 after moving from an area with water that was hard -- GH and KH both running anywhere from 8 to 15 depending on the time of year. Everything grew best when the KH and GH were highest.


I agree with Liz.

Any soil will release Ca and Mg into the water first couple months (my book p. 131). Eventually this release will lessen as the soil "settles down".

I would try one of the soils you like best and forget about temporary increases in water hardness that probably won't hurt-- and may help.

People forget that hardwater is nutrient-rich water-- lots of bicarbonates, potassium, calcium, magnesium. Essential nutrients for plants and totally harmless for fish.


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## iris600 (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm actually no longer in Upstate, NY, but am now located in Central, PA. My existing tapwater hardness is such that peat has no affect on PH. Out of the tap it tests into the 13-15 range. Yikes! 
I got the RO filter used to help me with breeding some fish (which have bred, many times). My concern is not that the plants won't grow, rather that I won't be able to put any of the species of fish I was hoping to put in there, in there (anamalocromis thomasi sp. guinea or bolivian rams plus ottos and my crazy-old black phantom tetras- which are absolutely wonderful fish by the way).

It's a 35 gallon hex.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Time to change your profile!


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