# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Fertz dillema



## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi,

I've been battling with Cyano Bacteria for quite some time. I saw a post about this topic on Nov. 7 and one peice of advice was that changes needed to be made somewhere.

In my case, I've been battling Cyano B. for over a year. I hoped this would change when I moved and installed a whole house water purifier. Nothing has changed. I've tried everything from adding and subtracting Macro nutrients to no avail & even played with Calcium some since my GH is 0-1 without it. Could someone give me some advice on what to add/subtract etc to help my situation? 

GH=6 with Ca & Mgso4 addition

KH=7

pH=7.2

N03=10-20

Po4>1 (Turns dark immediately)

Thanks,
Lois


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi,

I've been battling with Cyano Bacteria for quite some time. I saw a post about this topic on Nov. 7 and one peice of advice was that changes needed to be made somewhere.

In my case, I've been battling Cyano B. for over a year. I hoped this would change when I moved and installed a whole house water purifier. Nothing has changed. I've tried everything from adding and subtracting Macro nutrients to no avail & even played with Calcium some since my GH is 0-1 without it. Could someone give me some advice on what to add/subtract etc to help my situation? 

GH=6 with Ca & Mgso4 addition

KH=7

pH=7.2

N03=10-20

Po4>1 (Turns dark immediately)

Thanks,
Lois


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

Higher CO2, about 30ppm? A little less PO4 0.5-1? How much exactly is the level of PO4? Some people suggest that relative high P/N ratio causes BGA. I had BGA in my discus tank for quite some time until couple of months ago. First I killed it with antibiotic. I increase CO2, more regular dosing to keep macro/trace in good range, increased water change, no sign of BGA since.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I got rid of mine by using E-mycin (maracyn). Then you need to keep your N03/P04 at a 23/1 ratio or N/P at a 10/1 ratio. Also make sure your C02 is keep at 20-30ppm & weekly water changes.


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

I've done the Maracyn treatment _several times_ only to have it grow back _again and again_.

I'm not exactly sure how high Po4 is, but I think its around 4 or 5. I just can't seem to keep it down. Nitrate is the same way. I thought they might have something to do with my Cyano prob but think they're only a result of a deeper issue...such as too little or too much nutrients. I just need someone who will help me work on figuring out what (which may take some time). Anyone up for the challenge?

Staying hopeful,
Lois


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Lois,

Don't think that "change something" means to change your fertilizer.

Look at changing the lighting
Look at changing the circulation
Look at changing the temperature
Look at changing what, when or how you feed fish
Look at changing the kind of filteration
Look at changing the type of plants you grow

Most of the changes that people make when they try to tweak their fertilizer routines are probably insignificant. They often change a nutrient that is already in excess to a level that is also in excess.

I expect that the actual control on cyanophytes in an aquarium is a biological control. As it stands now we know almost nothing about biological controls in aquariums and less about how to manipulate those controls. Until we come by a better understanding we are left with only two recourses; we can experiment until something works or we can poison them. Poisoning cyanophytes (as with antibiotics) is generally not the best solution.


Roger Miller


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Roger,
I appreciate your input. In reference to your reply, I'm just left where I started though.



> quote:
> 
> Don't think that "change something" means to change your fertilizer.
> 
> ...


 Lighting: I've changed the tubes to new; also adjusted the watts from 4-1 wpg then back up again. (More light seems to grow more Cyano)

Circulation: outside box filter; added Power Head & changed circulation level several times

Changed temp from 88-82 degrees (Discus)

Replaced beefheart/bloodworms/flakes to only flakes. Changed feeding from 2x to 1x a day

Same plants that were growing lush & fast 2 years ago are now weak and straggly. (Could be from Maracyn?)

Root growth has been poor & high N & P that is difficult to lower along with Cyano B. has caused me to assume the nutrient excess/deficiency. One thing that has changed recently is root developement. Since adding Ca new roots have been growing. Have played with Ca, Mg, Kno3, K2so4 with limited results.

When reviewing Sears/Conlin PMDD paper, noticed that they said if N isn't lowered by nutrient x (in their case K2so4) then something other then x is limiting plant growth. Since I've done everything I know, Isn't there some possibility nutrients could be the answer this time?

Lois


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

You need to get a exact reading on your N03 & P04 or a closer reading than you have now. The most likely reason the BGA keeps coming back is a nutrient balance. Do you inject C02? If so what is the reading?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Sure, the problem can be nutrients, but I don't see much reason to believe that it is.

At the AGA conference in Houston I stuck my nose into a conversation between Cavan and Claus Christenson (head man at Tropica). Claus said that Tropica tested a lot of tanks and their data said that cyanophyte problems were almost always associated with pollution. I didn't follow up on exactly what they used to measured pollution. I expect that may be the problem in your tank; heavy feeding, unhealthy plants and poor filtration are an equation for pollution, no matter how it's measured. I'm not sure what you mean by an "outside box filter", but it doesn't sound like a lot of filtration.

If you have high nitrate and high phosphate in your tank without adding either then your tank isn't acting like a planted tank -- it's acting like an overloaded fish tank. Those nutrients should not build up on their own -- and certainly not if you're doing much in the way of water changes. You clearly need more plant growth, and that is one thing that would help with any sort of pollution problem.

The major controls on plant growth are straightforward; the total plant population, the amount of light and the amount of CO2 are the primary controls. All other factors are secondary. To keep the nutrients under control the first thing you have to do is make sure that those three factors are in place. Once that is true then you can worry about everything else.

If you get the plants to the point where they're photosynthesizing and growing then you can get to the secondary issues like fertilizer. Clearly you don't need to worry yet about about adding N or P. K is the only other macro left and you say you have added that before. Next in line are all the various trace nutrients. When you get to that point then just buy a good trace mix and dose it according to the manufacturer's instructions. You don't need to worry about ratios. Once things are growing then you can worry about dosing nitrate or phosphate, but you don't need to think about it until then.


Roger Miller


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

My outside box filter as I call it since I'm not sure what else to call it is a Penguin 330 Biowheel (with the 2 biowheels taken off). It's stated to be sufficient for 55 gal tanks. I also have a Power head 802 filter at the other end of the tank (also supposed to be suitable for 55 gal tanks). Both have sponge filters which I clean every week (along with my tanks water changes) by swishing them around in the removed tank water. 

Water changes are done each week by vaccuuming the top layer of gravel as much as possible. I'd be very surprised to find that my tank were polluted. All I have are 3 medium discus and 1 kuhli loach except for the snails. 


Co2 is added by DIY yeast injection. It's at the end of its life and needs to be changed soon since bubbles produced have decreased. I usually do this 1x a month. Co2 is injected into the tank through the Power head. I haven't tested for readings.

I recently checked my Po4 at high range and it showed to be at the highest level on the test kit which was 5. Just to be sure it was working properly I tested tap water which showed 0. 

My No3 readings fluctuate daily. Today they're at 10. Not too bad right now but each day they continue to rise until the next water change. They usually end up being at 20 or so. 

I began noticing the N going up when I started adding calcium chloride in the form of Liquid Calcium by Kent. (I moved to a new house with well wtr & whole house purifier) Before this I added nitrates daily to my tank in order to keep them from bottoming out. When I found the need to add calcium after moving, I began adding CaNo but, because of the amounts I needed, found it raised my nitrates too high. That is why I switched to Calcium chloride.

Do you know if the chloride in the Liquid Calcium could be hindering the uptake of N or P?

Thanks for your help,
Lois


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## bobo31 (May 8, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Do you know if the chloride in the Liquid Calcium could be hindering the uptake of N or P?


No it doesn't because I also use calcium chloride also but I do use the Kents Turbo Calcium and not the liqiud calcium. I really doubt that it could be the problem.

I had a reoccurring problem with this stuff in the past I beat it by upgrading my filter. I was not getting enough flow so I bought a bigger filter and I have not seen it since. After installing the filter I did a 3 day blackout followed by a very large water change. From then on it was gone.

HTH,
Robert.


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Thanks,
I may end up just getting a new filter, but wouldn't adjusting the power head flow rate compensate for the other?

As to the uptake of N & P, does anyone know of any nutrients that could hinder plants ability to absorb them as they should? ...I know that too much K hinders the uptake of Ca so... could I need to adjust some other nutrient to give plants the ability to absorb these other nutrients?

Lois


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