# [Wet Thumb Forum]-do plants reduce nitrAtes?



## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

Okay. I have always read that nitrAtes were harmless, but after the death of a fish have found out otherwise. Some people and articles have told me that plants will significantly reduce nitrAte levels, and some people say that it won't!!! I nEEd your help! I'm so confused and I don't want anymore of my fish to die. I suspect that nitrAtes is in my tap water as well and that my massive water changes aren't helping my fish at all!

In anotherforum that I belong to I wrote a big post seeking help, but I haven't found it there. So my goal was to take my post and paste it here-but unfortunatly, I can't paste in here... so, if I gave you the link, would you please go and read it, then come back here and tell me what I need to do? Pretty please?

here it is:
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25371

(my nick name at this forum is maudlinblithe as well)...


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

Okay. I have always read that nitrAtes were harmless, but after the death of a fish have found out otherwise. Some people and articles have told me that plants will significantly reduce nitrAte levels, and some people say that it won't!!! I nEEd your help! I'm so confused and I don't want anymore of my fish to die. I suspect that nitrAtes is in my tap water as well and that my massive water changes aren't helping my fish at all!

In anotherforum that I belong to I wrote a big post seeking help, but I haven't found it there. So my goal was to take my post and paste it here-but unfortunatly, I can't paste in here... so, if I gave you the link, would you please go and read it, then come back here and tell me what I need to do? Pretty please?

here it is:
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25371

(my nick name at this forum is maudlinblithe as well)...


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

I guess I should add this as well... Goldfish will eat plants, so I have to be very choosy in the types that I buy... here is a list of plants that goldfish will not (generally) eat(again, or so I am told):

Anubias
Java Moss
Onion Plant
Amazon Sword
Java Fern
Anacharis

I hope this helps.

Also, what can I do to save my fish if plants will not help me?


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

What tells you that nitrates are harmful? Have you tested nitrate levels in the tank? Have you tested nitrate levels in your tap water?

If you use a public water supply then the nitrate level in your tap water can be up to 44 mg/l without drawing a lot of regulatory attentions. If you're on a private well then the nitrate levels can be (but should not be) much higher than 44 mg/l.

Plants do use nitrate and can keep nitrate levels in an aquarium at zero. That requires that you provide appropriate conditions for plant growth. If the plants are not growing or not growing very fast then they may not have much effect on nitrate levels. Many successful plant keepers add nitrate to their aquariums because their plants use more nitrte then they can get from fish feeding and water changes alone.

If the conditions in your tank are not appropriate for growing plants then it doesn't make much difference what plants you buy. Growing plants well enough to reduce nitrate levels will probably require that you change your setup. Without knowing more about your setup (especially, lighting) it is difficult to offer constructive comment.


Roger Miller


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## Margolis (Sep 22, 2004)

what are your levels of nitrates and why do you think they killed the fish?


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

I got the info about nitrAtes being dangerous from:
http://www.pondcrisis.com/a_nitrate.html
(the part under the section titled:symptoms of chronic high level nitrates--- my fish have suffered from some of these and all other water parameters are fine).
and from:http://www.northcoastmarines.com/ALGONE.html

and from countless people online.

When mundsig died, I don't know what the levels were. I did, after that, get them checked recently and for example one tank had 160 ppm and another had about 200ppm. My tap water had about 20 (I have all of this wrote down at home, but since I don't have a home computer-I'm using my moms- I cant give exact numbers. sorry








)
Right now, I know I probaby don't have the right light requirements, but that is another part of what I am trying to learn, so that I can buy everything I will need shortly.

my two ten gallon aquariums have sunlight.The sit right next to windows. (well, on does have a hood with lights... but I loath the lights! the brand is from all glass aquariums and is almost like normal light bulbs that one would use in a table lamp. )

my 29 gal-I bought it as a complete set-up for $100 dollars. the light is flourescent--but definatly not full spectrum. the 20 gal is the same way as the 29 gal. Lastly, the 5 gal. betta tank is natural sunlight as well.
(on my 2 tanks that have flourescent lights--is that what I should buy? full spectrum lights for for all my tanks? Oh, and for both of these tanks-the light holds only one flourecent light, not two seperate lights. is this okay? what exactly will I need?)

I honestly don't care how much money it will cost me to buy everything I will need to do this. I just need someone to teach me how-fast!

Thank you for telling me that it is possible for plants to help out. I just hope I can learn more very soon before I loose any more of my friends!


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

also, could you give me a list of everything I would need to begin? (and is there such a thing as "overplanting" a tank?)


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Nitrate is essentially non-toxic and a lot of people have experience raising fish with high nitrate levels. The links you provide are more advertising than they are authoritative. It is best to take their information with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, 200 ppm or 160 ppm of nitrate is remarkably high. I didn't know they even made kits that measured levels that high. If your maintenance routine allows nitrate to get that high I suspect there are any number of other potential problems.

The most immediate things you need to do are water changes; fair-sized water changes and a lot of them, probably spaced out enough to avoid shocking the fish too much.

Using your tank that has 200 ppm nitrate in it as an example, changing 1/3 of the water should drop nitrate to 141, repeating that change should drop the level to 101, another repeat should drop the level to 74 and a fourth repeat should drop the level to 56. And so on. By that time you have the nitrate down to more normal levels.

It is possible to get plants to keep your nitrate levels down, but I'm not sure that is something you really want to do. The plants themselves become the hobby.

Floating plants and emergent plants are most effective at pulling nutrients (including nitrate) out of water. Duckweed is great for that, but goldfish eat duckweed. Larger floating plants might be more effective, but frankly I don't have enough experience with goldfish to tell you which ones will work and which ones won't work.

Another simple option is to use house plants -- especially pothos but possibly arrowhead plants and some philodendrons -- that will happily grow with their roots in water and their leaves in the air. You would need to figure out a way to fasten the plant on the tanks so their leaves get light and air above the tank and their roots are dangle down into the aquarium water.

Your sunlit tanks might get enough light to grow submersed aquatic plants. It sounds like your other tanks probably need more light. For most purposes you need to have about 2 watts of fluorescent light for every gallon of tank capacity; to get growth sufficient to control nitrate levels a 29 gallon tank should be lit with at least 50-60 watts of fluorescent light. The lights don't have to be "full spectrum" lights.

Of the plants you listed above you might find anubias and java fern to be useful. In my experience goldfish will eat java moss. If you do want to try submersed plants then ask again for details about how to go about it.

You can (and probably should) combine dangling plants, floating plants and submersed plants to get the full effect.

Whatever you do, *first* do water changes to get the nitrate down to reasonable levels, second establish a regular schedule of maintenance and water changes and third look into using plants to help control the nitrate.


Roger Miller


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## Margolis (Sep 22, 2004)

160-200ppm!!!!!









like Roger hinted at, it is your maintenance schedule that is causing the problems. If your nitrates are that far through the roof then you have not been maintaining your tanks properly. And no amount of plants is going to take care of that level of nitrates.

First thing to do is the water changes like you were directed. Then keep up the water changes on a normal basis. If you are doing 30% water changes on a weekly or even biweekly basis your nitrates should never get anywhere near harmful levels.

plus, who knows what other problems your fish might be having since you haven't been doing proper maintenance.

I do 40-50% changes weekly on my planted tanks, and 35-40% every 1 or 2 weeks on my fish only tanks depending on how motivated I am.

And in tanks without plants, make sure you thoroughly vacuum the gravel with each change to get rid of any waste that builds up.

30-40ppm of nitrates are pretty much harmless, but with regular maintenance you shouldn't even get that high.


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

I do take care of my tanks! Don't just assume that I haven't been, please. every week since I have had my first tank, I have always changed 1/2 of the water--in each tank I own. I was told to do this by other goldfish owners--because goldfish are extremely messy and any owner can tell you that. I always thouroughly siphoned the gravel. That's why all of this is soooo confusing-and confusing to other goldfish owners as well. So it wasn't that I have been neglecting my tanks.... I do follow a schedule.

Also, like I hinted to, its in my tap water as well, so if say my tank had 100 ppm and I changed 50% of the water the new ppm would not be at a level 50, it would be higher than that.At this point, I can't even change 100% of the water and have the level read "0." Thats why I want live plants-to help out.

Also, those are just two sites that I have read this info on. I've found it in countless other places that weren't selling a product and from forum friends online. Also, as I remarked, my fish had many of the symptoms. Esp. my rescue fish--their healing has been delayed for soo long--and I know all of my other water parameters have been okay.

Oh, and I finally got a petstore to test the nitrAte. Also, if you don't believe me that it can be tested for such high levels, I can dig up a link to a Goldfish breeder whose levels were very similar to mine and he too stated that he was "religous about [his] water changes" and they still climbed on him like me.I think it is in part to the fact that goldfish, even if you hand feed them-as to be certain their is no left over food- are extremely messy.

And I have been doing the water changes, gradually like you said, so I won't shock my fish and the beneficial bacteria. It's just that with my bad back (car accident) the more frequent water changes throughout the whole week hurt me really bad. Thats why I was thinking about utilizing some plants to help the process as well as the water changes.

Oh! and if the plants themselves become a hobby, all the more the better! I love to garden outside and the aspect of doing it underwater makes me smile.

maybe your used to seeing alot of morons on the net not "trying" to take care of their fish/plants, but I have been. so, please don't think that I am one









Oh, and as for my fish's health right now, I have still only lost just that one. and he just died.... no ick or anything. None of my other fish are sick at all--but with the nitrAtes, it could happen soon--and thats why I'm trying to learn. The major thing is delayed healing in my rescue fish I plan on adopting out 100% for free to other goldfish owners.


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## Margolis (Sep 22, 2004)

Sorry, I don't think either one of us meant to insult you. It is just that I haven't ever seen nitrates get that high without severe neglect, even with goldfish. If the nitrates are extremely high in your tap water I would suggest an RO unit to purify the water the water to start with. Then plants would be a good idea to help with what is produced naturally in the tank. But it is going to take quite a bit of plants with light and co2 to really consume the nitrates. People like Roger can be more helpful than I in those areas.

also, it might be a good idea for you to invest in a test kit to test your own water parameters


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't mean to be insulting either, but something here just does not make sense. I do not see any way that nitrate levels could get that high without a major problem causing it. If you have been changing 50% of the water every week there is no way your nitrate could reach 200ppm. No way! You are either mis reading the test kit, or there is something causing this we have not yet discovered, and I can not think of anything that could cause it. What test kit are you using? Isn't 200ppm considered unsafe drinking water? I wouldn't drink it.

I agree with Roger as far as what to do with plants. Use houseplants.


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## imported_Piscesgirl (Feb 19, 2004)

I have heard many folks that have nitrates in their water, unfortunately. Plants should help for sure. Although I'm not very good at DIY, you might even look into a sort of Refugium tht works as a plant/bog filter, that you can grow plants in that flows back into your tank -- preventing the goldfish from eating the plants that are 'filtering' the water. Experimenting with various plants is probably your best choice. Keep us updated!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Like Margolis said, nothing has been said with the intent of insulting you.

The numbers I have for nitrate reductions from water changes include the 20 ppm nitrate in your water. If you carry out enough water changes you should eventually get it down to 20 ppm.

I can understand why other goldfish owners might find your case confusing. It *is* confusing; I expect that some of the information you have is not accurate.

For instance, consider what it takes to sustain 160 ppm in a tank while doing 50% weekly water changes. Immediately after a 50% water water change the tank will contain 90 ppm; 80 ppm from the water that was left in the tank and the other 10 ppm from the water you added. To get back to 160 ppm by the end of the week you now have to add another 70 ppm of nitrate from somewhere else. And you have to do that every week.

The nitrate will not appear in your tank just because goldfish are messy. You have to add nitrogen to the tank -- usually as fish food -- in order for it to end up as nitrate in the water. If all that nitrate comes from fish food then you would have to feed a 29 gallon tank with *at least* the entire contents of a fairly large (i.e., 62 gram) fish food container in less than a month.

You probably don't feed that much. Perhaps you are adding nitrate some other way, but it seems unlikely. The most likely explanation is simply that some of your information is not right.

Plants can help you control nitrate levels, but with anything like the problem you have now you must depend on large water changes for most of the nitrate control. As I said in my last post, floating and dangling plants are your best bet. To get significant nitrate control from submersed plants you will need:

1) More light; at least 2 watts/gallon of fluorescent light

2) A source of plant-usable carbon; usually CO2.

3) Non-nitrogen fertilizer; a fertilizer that contains potassium and iron is a good start.

4) Good water circulation.

5) A *lot* of plants; you really can't overplant the tank.

6) Patience, because algae -- especially green water -- will be a problem.


Roger Miller


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

I just drove about an hour away today and bought my own test kit... Its aquarium pharm. brand....I haven't tested any of my tanks water yet, because the roads were starting to drift and with all of the snow blowing, it was getting hard to see, so I came to my parents as it was closer. but I think your right about the test results being wrong.

It says on the box that it only test up to... 160 ppm. That makes me wonder how the lady in the pet store got 200ppm's on one of my tanks when I know she was using the same brand. I don't like this lady and rarely go to her store. I wonder how she even stays in buissness-- her tanks are so gross. For example, most don't even have filters OR air pumps. she has got WAY to much gravel and their is ALWAYS sick fish everywhere dieing. And she has the most outrageous prices on her products... She also mistreats her "furry" pets. Anyways, she had her own test bottle to use but the bottles to buy were all sold out. I know she was using the aquarium pharm. brand because I know what their bottles look like since I have them in ammonia and nitrite...Those were the answers she got. Maybe her bottle was old? I'll let you know as soon as I can about how my tests compare with hers.

I researched more today, and found that mangrove trees are used by hobyist as a good natural filter and supposedly that they will eliminate nitrate... Of course though, sadly, I have no room for a mangrove tree in my living room









Then, I found out that I can buy a tap water filter that will remove not only nitrAte, but other bad things a well... the cost of the replcement filters was a bit steep though, and my mom said that perhaps I can get one that will do the same thing for cheaper at menards or lowes? Maybe not, but it is definatly something I'll check into!

Oh! and I always did siphon all of my gravel. but in the last few weeks, when, due to nitrates, I was cleaning more often, I noticed that I can never manage to get all of the "gunk" out... There isn't an overabundance of the stuff, don't get me wrong, but there is definatly always some left over... maybe this could have been slowly creating the problem? The 20 gal I have had up since about august of 2004, the 29 since october of 2004...

In another forum, a person said that maybe I could go "almost" graveless and have potted plants in there.. or as you said, the houseplants and then the hanging and floating.I think I might do this first. Sound good?

And I know I might have gotten a lil' snippy back, but I felt like you guys thought I was a real awful person--kind of the way I feel when a person walks into a forum and says "my goldfish who is living in a BOWL is sick...What shoule I do???" I'm not one of those people though!!! I'm just so freaked out about correcting this situation that I'm grumpy and have been crabby with people. I do apologize.


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## maudlinblithe (Jan 20, 2005)

I almost forgot, it wasn't the tap that said 200, it was one of my tanks


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

I've considered goldfish in a planted tank. The problem I faced was temperature. If you add a lot more light, be sure to provide good ventilation because, as you probably know, goldfish are better kept at cooler temperatures. You might want to consider a hanging pendant light fixture of some sort to keep the heat away from the tank.

TW


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> feed a 29 gallon tank with *at least* the entire contents of a fairly large (i.e., 62 gram) fish food container in less than a month


Roger, could you please explain how to calculate the amount of nitrate (or any nitrogen) that I can get from food? What's the connection between carbs/fats/proteins and NPK?

Thank you,

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

carbs/fats/proteins do not contain potassium. Potassium is present in plants and other biological material largely as the dissolved ion. It makes sense that potassium should be low in fish foods and according to the data in Ms. Walstad's book it is low.

carbs/fats/protens are not a major source of phosphorus. Phosphorus (as phosphate) is used in cellular metabolism to transfer energy and is part of nucleic acids. Fish foods also include phosphate in ground up bones, scales and other non-reactive materials. The phosphorus may show up in a food analysis, but only a fraction of the total phosphorus content is biologically available -- possibly a small fraction.

carbs/fats/proteins contain nitrogen mostly in the proteins. Proteins are 16-17% nitrogen by weight. Food analyses usually list crude proteins. Protein typically makes up about 45% of the total dry weight. From those values you can expect fish food to be about 7.4% nitrogen.

My calculation assumed that all of the nitrogen would eventually be converted to nitrate. In fact that isn't true.

The protein in fish food is not all digestible by fish. The amount that is digestible varies with the age and initial quality of the food. I think I read that typically, only about 60% of the protein in a dry fish food mix is digestible. That value comes from the book "Fish Nutrition" by Halverson (spelling?).

The 40% of undigestible protein will end up in detritus. Given enough time bacterial will mineralize most of the nitrogen content of the detritus back to nitrate. If some of the detritus is siphoned out then bacteria won't have time to act on it and the nitrogen content will never show up in the water.


Roger Miller


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