# [Wet Thumb Forum]-I am under attack!! - Pls Help



## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

I am running this 200 gallon tank for 5 months now and haven't had the chance to experience a major algae break till now. In a matter of 5 hours the tank is covered with this thing and as you can understand I am not having fun...

I spent this night photographing this thing which I shall call "the plauge" till we find a better name together....

So first of all the description, then some pictures and then some info about my tank, fertlization, etc.

The plague is a gray thing that lives on the edges of the leaves + forms solid strands which sometimes participate in a spider web between plants. It has a constant pearling bubble as opposed to my plants who just get rid of the bubble and sends it to the water surface.

OK - here's some pictures -

This one is of some sp. of ludwigia inclinata I believe and you can see the strands stretching from leaf to leaf -










The hygro. sunset illustrates the leaving on the edge of the leaf symptom.










And the Reinekii










And this stickly plague grows on wires










And another one -










And the callitroides on the right with a strand on the left...










So what is it? Fuzz?Beard? Thread? Staghorn? Brush?

Now I shall try to give my guess of what this thing is. I believe it's a thread algae because I believe tose strands can go as longs as 30 cm. Unlike the BBA they are easily removed by hand. However maybe not because SAEs won't touch it and because excess iron should be the cause for this while in my case I am not sure. It can't be staghorn because I read that staghorn are hard to pull out mechanically.

Tank is 200 gallons with 500W of light, quartz on top of JBL substrate + laterite.

PH = 6.65
NO3 = 7 ppm
PO4 = 0.4 PPM
GH = 8
KH = 4
CO2 = ~30 ppm
Fe = 1 smidgen (1/64 of table spoon) 100% ferrous Gluconate powers daily (should add 0.05ppm???)

Last things that I have done wrong...

- I have two CO2 ballons. One is controlled and runs @ ~3 bubbles per second while the other one is non controlled and runs @ ~1 bubble per second. I turned the slow one off cause I thought that the big one can handle it and I think it did preety well -- I did reach the target PH.

- I did a major cleaning by stirring the ground and syphoning what I believe was dirt that was not consumed any more. First time I have done this - I might have exposed jobs spikes but I doubt cause I measure nitrates/phosphate daily.

- Pearling reduced significantly and sensitive plants looked bad but I was having a 'denial' thing - Now that I think about it - it was because of reduction in CO2.

Proposed Strategy -

Continue dosing kno3/kh2po4 but stop iron for a while.

Clean manually every day... big effort.

Put the CO2 back where it was.

Add ancistrus and japonicas if I find any.

or

Complete blackout???

I would like to thank everybody for the kind help,

Aviel.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

I am running this 200 gallon tank for 5 months now and haven't had the chance to experience a major algae break till now. In a matter of 5 hours the tank is covered with this thing and as you can understand I am not having fun...

I spent this night photographing this thing which I shall call "the plauge" till we find a better name together....

So first of all the description, then some pictures and then some info about my tank, fertlization, etc.

The plague is a gray thing that lives on the edges of the leaves + forms solid strands which sometimes participate in a spider web between plants. It has a constant pearling bubble as opposed to my plants who just get rid of the bubble and sends it to the water surface.

OK - here's some pictures -

This one is of some sp. of ludwigia inclinata I believe and you can see the strands stretching from leaf to leaf -










The hygro. sunset illustrates the leaving on the edge of the leaf symptom.










And the Reinekii










And this stickly plague grows on wires










And another one -










And the callitroides on the right with a strand on the left...










So what is it? Fuzz?Beard? Thread? Staghorn? Brush?

Now I shall try to give my guess of what this thing is. I believe it's a thread algae because I believe tose strands can go as longs as 30 cm. Unlike the BBA they are easily removed by hand. However maybe not because SAEs won't touch it and because excess iron should be the cause for this while in my case I am not sure. It can't be staghorn because I read that staghorn are hard to pull out mechanically.

Tank is 200 gallons with 500W of light, quartz on top of JBL substrate + laterite.

PH = 6.65
NO3 = 7 ppm
PO4 = 0.4 PPM
GH = 8
KH = 4
CO2 = ~30 ppm
Fe = 1 smidgen (1/64 of table spoon) 100% ferrous Gluconate powers daily (should add 0.05ppm???)

Last things that I have done wrong...

- I have two CO2 ballons. One is controlled and runs @ ~3 bubbles per second while the other one is non controlled and runs @ ~1 bubble per second. I turned the slow one off cause I thought that the big one can handle it and I think it did preety well -- I did reach the target PH.

- I did a major cleaning by stirring the ground and syphoning what I believe was dirt that was not consumed any more. First time I have done this - I might have exposed jobs spikes but I doubt cause I measure nitrates/phosphate daily.

- Pearling reduced significantly and sensitive plants looked bad but I was having a 'denial' thing - Now that I think about it - it was because of reduction in CO2.

Proposed Strategy -

Continue dosing kno3/kh2po4 but stop iron for a while.

Clean manually every day... big effort.

Put the CO2 back where it was.

Add ancistrus and japonicas if I find any.

or

Complete blackout???

I would like to thank everybody for the kind help,

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

That sounds a bit like what Cavan get's now and then. I think he calls in "gray snot". I'm not sure but I think he decided it was a cyanophyte.


Roger Miller


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

it sounds and looks to me like cyanophyta too. it´s hard to deal with this algae, i had a breakout too, maybe 2 months ago. is the water and the algae stinky?

it was starting on just one place in the tank, but constantly overgrown everything in the tank.

i tried allmost everything: daily waterchanges, optimizing the co2 level, stopped dosing fert -the plants suffered, so i had to start with fert again- cleaned the filter. i do not have any kit for measuring phosphorus or no3, so i cannot tell if an increase of these factors was the case, but in your position, i would stop dosing kno3/kh2po4 for a while, even if the measured value isn´t that high...

how does your watermovement looks like, have you ensured that the whole water in the tank is slowly pumped and moved by the filter?

in my case, i changed the waterflow, what helped immediately and have added antibiotica for 5-6 days to completely get rid of the plague...

oh yes, i allmost forgot: when the algae growth was at maximum i lost some c.japonicas and some sensitive fishes, all i could catch i moved to another tank and decided to add antibiotics...


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hello once again,

I would like to update on my plans for combating this cyano thing. Roger and also whoever can help or has experience - please help (Cavan?)

Well the signs and the reasons for this burst indicate that this is cyano - 

- My filter became very slow to a point that there was no water flow. I tried to fix this for several weeks but it always slowed down. It's a cheap and bad filter. Cyano just love still water.

- In the middle of the tank I had a big althernatera reinekii which was stopping the poor water current to the right side of the tank - this is an 8 feet tank.

- The water temprature was raised lately from 26 to 27 and sometimes to 28.5!! - cyano just love warm and yicky water.

- cyano is called a slime bacteria - I noticed in the last couple of weeks how the aquarium water is not clear and how many particles which are moved by the corydoras return to the ground because of poor filtration. One week ago I washed the gravel which triggered this thing.

- Lately I raised the PH by fertilizing with less CO2 so PH went from ~6.5 to 6.7. Cyano hate acidic water and I avoided what they hate.

- Since I noticed that my macranda is not having fun lately I decided to shrink the NO3 from 10 to 5. When there's not enough NO3 - Cyano have advantage cause they can fix it out of oxygen.

- For a week now I notice strands/slimes on the filter outlet - this is how cyano "eats"



OK so here's my plan - 

1) bought two filters instead of the poor two filters - I need good water circulation.

2) I shall re-locate the reinekii such that it won't stand in the way of the current.

3) I bought a water chiller. I plan on reducing temprature to 25. Is it OK? Should I go lower? I do not want my tetras to catch ich!

4) I raised nitrate from 5 ppm to 10 ppm and may go higher.

5) I shall keep on fertilizing with PO4 in but with ratio 1:20 of PO4:NO3 - I don't care if I get green algae. I am now helping plants (and algae) against this bacteria.

6) Every day - 1/2 hour before light are gone I shall manually remove the cyano from all of the plants. During the night the particles shall be sucked by the filters such that in the next morning the plants shall be able to photosynthesize since it won't be covered.

7) I aim now for PH = 6.6 with CO2 = ~35 ppm. 

8) First day I shall do 50% water change and then every two days cleaning of the filter + 30% water change.

9) I shall feed my fish as usual.

10) I shall pray.

If that doesn't help or I see that there's no improvement then I already bought erythromyzin and shall describe that on later chapters of this saga.

I am sorry for such a long post. But I do need people to tell me if I am on the right track.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for any help,

Aviel.


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

hi aviel , 
1.just remeber if u go all the way thru the antibiotic - use it as my doc. says - dont stop dosing it in the middle of the treatment - even if it looks like the bacterium dissapeared.
2. when operating the chiller - adjust it to lower the temp 1-1.5c a day only- dont go all the way from 29 to 25 in one day or your cardinals would get the ich!
3. use mechanical filters in the treatments to catch as many dead pieces of the bacterium as u can - dont let it smim around your tank - i can give u filters if u need for a short period
4. as u have a vey big tank - i would suggest that u add a small power head in the middle of the tank - or in a place u think u have stil water.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Yes, that is indeed the grey slime.

I'm pretty sure that the stuff shows up when macro nutrients bottom out for a while. I've seen it show up when I've changed bulbs, when I first added pressurized co2... Pretty much any time I did something that would speed up plant growth. Are you _sure_ your nitrates are really 7ppm? What test kit are you using? Have you tested recently?

I suspect that dissolved organics or something like that may have something to do with it. I haven't seen it for about 8 months (knock on wood) and since that time, I've changed about half the water each week.

Do you have an UV sterilizer? That may work. If not, do a blackout for 3-4 days. No lights. Cover the tank with a blanket, etc. I have never been able to get rid of it any other way. Antibiotics didn't work. Once it gets a foothold, it is very, very difficult to get rid of it.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Cavan,

Thank you for taking the time to identify this plague. Grey slime then.

I read your posts in APD and in one of them you were saying that you lost the job of the hobby. At some 

points - I do as well !!! This is something worst than anything and I understand the emotional side of 

your comments!

First of all - is it cyanophyta or grey slime or is it the same thing? I saw that a sample of your slime 

was identified in a lab to be eukarytic algae. I looked further and my understanding is that eukarytic 

algae is what we call 'algae' - unlike BGA which is bacteria. So this is the first thing I want to 

understand. I know that Erythromyzin didn't help - so it's not a BGA - right? no? yes? I am confused... 

Roger?

OK - I increased the air flow and started adding nitrates to 10 ppm and beyond. I have no problem with 

feeding up to 20 ppm. I also add phosphates with a ratio of 1:20 with nitrates such as to accelerate the 

nitrates consumption and really help plants and normal algae thrive.

I hooked a diatom filter as well - it's too clogged now after 12 hours... - I hope it shall continue to 

work since I don't have much left powder (where do I get one????)

At the end of the photoperiod today I saw that there's only 30% of the day before. Which means I am doing 

something good - I am in the right direction.

I am using AP (Aquarium Pharma...) test kit. All the time I was aiming @ 10 ppm and planned on going to 5 

ppm only for showing off/pictures etc... - but then I thought let's try the 5 ppm. Probably that test 

kits sucks big time and I was bottoming out my nitrates - just like you said. The 7 ppm was after I 

started adding...

I don't have a UV - I know it kills bacteria.

But I want to continue a few days and get rid of it with water flow + ample nitrates + manual removal at 

the end of each day's photoperiod.

Then I want to try a complete blackout. It's the light that help these creatures - during the 14 hours of 

dark - they don't develop at all. Thomras barr suggested that as well and it also worked for you on the 

first trial... oh god.

There's yet another hobbyist Ron Barter - whom I believe got this thing - do you know where I could find 

him?

What makes me think of surrendering is the dirt that I see and what I read about the dormacy of this 

thing etc. Looks like something that I shall never be able to get rid of totally - and like it was said 

in one of the threads in APD - this thing needs light and micros - it doesn't need N... 

"It was here first and will probably be here last"

Any help (even mental support) would be much appreciated!

Aviel.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I think that when I had my sample looked at in a lab, the professor looking at it saw one of the many things present in the tank but not visable to the naked eye. There are all kinds of things in there! Most of them are just waiting for the right conditions to flourish, and that may have been what he saw. I'm not really sure.

That it shows up when nitrates are zero points to it being a cyanobacteria. The problem is that once you correct conditions, it often sticks around anyway.









So, it may be a cyanobacteria like BGA but just a different one. I talked to Claus Christensen about this subject at length at the 2002 AGA convention, and that was his opinion. He said that he didn't think an alga could ever grow that fast. I will send him your photos and see what he has to say. They are some good photos and they should give everyone who hasn't seen it before a better idea of what we're dealing with. I think the stuff is evil!

If you don't have a UV, perhaps you know a friend who does? If you have a good one, that alone can take care of the problem. I think that if I cleaned mine out or replaced the bulb, it might work better again.

A diatom filter can really help you clean things up if you want to try balancing the tank first. Or, you can use it along with the UV or before a blackout.

You will need more than a 14 hour blackout if that's what you end up doing. The dark period should be three days _at least_. Not more than four. Your plants will look bad for a while afterwards, and the really sensitive ones may not survive, but things will look better in a while. What I have done before was to do a big water change, run a diatom filter, hook up the uv, and keep it running for the 3-4 days of _total_ darkness.

As long as your nitrates don't bottom out again, you shouldn't have to worry about it (I think).

I haven't talked to Ron Barter in a long time. I'll try to look up his e-mail.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Thank you very much Cavan,

If you talk to the guys or if you know the answer - how could it be BGA and erythromyzen doesn't kill it?

Sounds like an easy path to go no? I don't care about killing my biological filter, I trust my plants to show 0 ammonia/nitrite - they have done this during setup and they will do it for me this time.

Aviel.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> how could it be BGA and erythromyzen doesn't kill it?


I wish I knew the answer to that question, but I don't.









You could try different anti-biotics though, and see if any of them work. Somebody told me that something called oxolinic acid will kill it, but I have no way of being sure. I've even thought of trying Melafix.

I guess it shouldn't hurt to much to try the antibiotics first. It didn't hurt me anyway...


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

One more thing: Is there a local university or labratory where you could take a smaple of the stuff to be identified? It's worth a shot.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Did some reading,

I am not a chemist so it's hard for me to comprehend all of this - Roger if you could "translate" this to aquarium terms and whether I should tear off everything...

So first of all here's a link - just edit->search for "grey slime"

http://www.dbi.ca/perth/practical%20manual%20of%20ground%20water%20microbiology%201993/chapter%204.pdf

Now, here's an excerption -



> quote:
> 
> Grey slime - this type of slime forms an intermediate between a
> white (clear) slime and a black slime. Close inspection of the
> ...


Now the trigger was when I stirred the bottom for the first time in order to "clean" the aquarium. I am not expert but here goes - I have a thick 10 cm quartz substrate on top of rich soil+laterite and below all of this are heating cables. The quartz is 1-2 mm so anaerobic conditions are there. Adding H2S which is generated under these conditions and there you have an SRB (Sulphide reducing bacteria). All of this is fine as long as it is deep in the substrate. But then when I stirred the stuff - it came out to the water column and it hates oxygen so an oxygen loving bacteria coated this evil thing and I got nice slimy grey thing all over my plants. BTW - before the outburst there was lack of pearling - and after the burst the only pearling came from the evil slime - And the reason is clear - the oxygen hating SRB was trying to coat with oxygen loving bacteria once it was exposed to the water column.

Even if I get rid of it all - it's still there below the surface just waiting for my next aquascaping idea...

Now what do I do?

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Aviel,

The article you linked to is interesting, but probably has nothing to say about aquariums. The article is about the bacterial slimes that form in wells and pipes

Light is the biggest difference between those slimes and the coatings we see in aquariums. The article was talking about bacterial slimes that form in the dark and exist off from the energy they can get from unstable chemicals in the water and by corroding metals. Slimes that form in water exposed to light (including aquariums) include a lot of algae -- usually diatoms and cyanophytes. Those slimes live off the material produced by the algae.

It's unlikely that the grey slime described in the article has anything in common with the grey slime in your aquarium.


Roger Miller


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Roger,

Here are some theories then - please review:

1) If we look @ my aquarium underground world then like any body else here I have anaerobic bacterias. Since the quartz layer is 10 cm and the granule is preety small (1-2 mm) then I have anaerobic conditions. I do see gas escaping from time to time and I guess it's from H2S, I do not smell eggs though. In addition to the hydrogen sulfide I have laterite that has lot's of iron I think (correct me if I am wrong) and the combination of all of this is the SRB (sulfate reducing bacteria). Now when this bacteria is exposed to oxygen and light (because Aviel decided to stir the ground till the aquarium was full of grains and dust)- it feels very bad - it needs anaerobic conditions - so here comes the cyanophte to the help and covers this thing. Makes sense?

Now will I need to deal with cyano whenever I stir the ground or move things around or up root?

2) I am having a 200L tank in my porch. It's where I prepare water for my next change by mxing osmosys with tap water. The tank is covered so there's darkness and warmth. So there you go - you have a well.

Inside that tank there's a plastic pump. That pump is connected tightly to a pipe using some metal which I believe is a little rusty. I turn on the pipe and the water run 10 m till they fall into the aquarium. During the week the left over water in the rubber pipe are there, not big quantities but they are there - lying in the dark....

Could any of these above theories be the source of the problem?

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Aviel,

In the first case, I don't see any reason to believe that your grey slime has anything to do with anaerobes from the substrate. I can't deny the possibility, but on the other hand I see no indication for it, either.

I think I can say that your second case doesn't work. Even if you were to grow some biofowling slimes in tank on your porch that would not create the same sort of slime in your aquarium. The bacterial slime would only develop in the dark and only while the chemicals they need to live are present.

Cavan's earlier suggestions are more likely to help understand the problem.


Roger Miller


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm curious about one thing...*Cavan*, do you also have laterite under some other substrate?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I think there's a tiny bit of it in there somewhere, but mostly it's regular gravel covered with Flourite. Why do you ask?

Guess what folks! I have it again too!






























I didn't keep a close enough eye on nitrate levels and it showed up again. I'll try Melafix first and see if that works. If not, I'll try a different antibiotic. Failing that, I'll go with 4 days of complete darkness. My _Ludwigia inclinata va. verticillata_ probably won't survive, but the hell with it! Survival of the fittest!







Besides, I found a ton of nice palustris that I've wanted to work in there, and this is the perfect opportunity.









I doubt it comes up from the substrate. It cannot survive without light. It may be possible that something brought up from below the gravel fuels it.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

I asked about the laterite, only bacause I've been following this thread and the two things that you and Aviel have in common are that you both have laterite under some other substrate, and you've both experienced that grey slime thing...I don't know if that means anything but I was just pondering the subject. Man, it does seem like our friend Aviel has his hands full with that stuff.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Guess what -

I have tons of new information. I followed the links behind that article that I posted and found this bacteria expert named Lori Johnston. 
He is director of research for Droycon Bioconcepts Inc and they have slimes in their web site more than I have fish in my aquarium.

Here are some excerptions from our discussion - and Roger I really need your help with "translating" the proposed strategy to aquarium ecology!!



> quote:
> 
> Thank you for your email. Was not able to open the pictures, sorry.
> The cyanobacteria, also known as blue/green alge is a common problem in
> ...


And then -



> quote:
> 
> Hello Aviel,
> The pics look like slime!! What you have is more than likely a
> ...


And the last one -



> quote:
> 
> >1) My understanding was the bacteria is dead when going for a deep low
> >PH such as PH = 6. NO WAY, BACTERIA ARE VERY RESILIANT. THEY CAN
> ...


OK,

So now any input is way more than welcome and for the assumptions/questions -

1) The key word is _SHOCK_- not try this and then that and lower this and do that. Just shock them because they are stronger than our fish and plants. This is why I need to quarantine and it shal take me a few days to prepare a proper aquabotanic winner small quarantine tank... ;-)

2) Cavan - you removed the ciano but you never got rid of the slimes.

3) What source of N could I use that doesn't have K??? Don't tell me ammonium... I buy mine in agriculture stores.

4) In order to take the PH up - how do I do it fast? disconnect the CO2 and put oxygen in till I get the desired result? Or dump in something?

5) Should I go for adding oxolinic acid ? It would take my tank PH down... What does he mean by 3-5% solution? How do I prepare it? What common products in a fish store are just that thing? I believe it's something for koi treatment in a pond?

6) Right after darkness should I start with low light low CO2 and then go out of this gradually such as to keep balance and not be suscepitle to BBA?

7) When transferring plants to the quarantine tank or when giving them to friends - should I sterilize them somehow? potassium pharmangant??? bleach?

8) I see debris on the bottom and corydoras are playing with them but never remove them because they sink faster than they are being pushed out. Could these be the slimes as well?

9) how do I catch the fish and put them in quarantine??? how do I do it in a 750L tank?

10) Should I take the PH up or PH down approach? If going down then how do I do it without adding CO2???? During the blackout - should I pump CO2 + add some PH down or something?

Aviel.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Roger,

I really hope that you can answer my questions on the previous message. This event is causing me a very big stress and I want to know if there's any chance out of it.

I wipe the leaves clean every day so a mass of what seems like "dry" slimes accumulates on the surface and I think I lost some of my corydoras because of that. I suspect that even if I kill this now - I will get it later as it doesn't seems feasible to get rid of all those tiny balls. Cavan - are you familiar with this dirt that accumulates on the ground?

Could you provide me with a plan of action in order to get rid of both the cyano and the slime?

Thank you!

Aviel.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Aviel, why don't you take the tank down...put some new substrate in, taking care that you won't have any anaerobic areas (place the plants in a way that you'll be able to do some regular vaccuming when you do water changes). As far as your plants are concerned, do what you don't want to do....a mild bleach bath and replant. The stress you're getting from this nasty stuff isn't worth it...look at it this way...you'll be able to relandscape and have a new setup from this experience.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

During the blackout, turn off the co2 and cover the tank completely. 3-4 days of that. That is by far the easiest way to get rid of it. Just save yourself the stress and trouble and do that. Do a big water change before and after. Feed the fish well before it. Some sensitive plants may not make it, but if they were healthy before, they may. Lots of things can look pretty scrawny after a blackout. Don't worry about that.

Thereafter, get a very good test kit (like a Lamotte) with reagents that you are sure haven't expired, and monitor the nitrate levels closely. Test at least twice a week. That should prevent it from coming back.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Cavan,

I believe you and me are experiencing the same stuff. Whatever I remove manually every day now is heavier than the water, much heavier, it sinks to the bottom. I believe these are slimes, dormant slimes, with protected bacteria inside, just waiting for the next opportunity to revenge. The input that I got from Lori is that those slimes will never disappear unless we shock the system. And it might be that since these old evils are stronger than plants and fish - that they will survive far after all fish and plants are dead!!! What you are suggesting Cavan is that every now and then I will have to go into this routine. I doubt if it's only when N bottoms out - it could be just that one of those slimes wakes up to life and immediately covers the whole tank.

Avi - your tearing down idea is probably inevitable for the ultimate solution but it's such a hard work, such a procedure, to do this tear off thing. On the same day I have to remove all the substrate off the house, bleach/pharmangant/oxinic-acid for the plants - never skip one, never overdo one because I have ludwigia spec cuba, eusteralis, macrandra and more delicate plants. Also prepare a big enough tank for the fish, with proper CO2 such that they won't get a shock... And then dry the big tank, add substrate, add plants.... and always beware of mixing the old with the new, bacterial contamination, etc. This should take also preparations, buying the substrate, etc, etc, etc !!!

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> I really hope that you can answer my questions on the previous message. This event is causing me a very big stress and I want to know if there's any chance out of it.


Aviel,

It sounds to me like Lori Johnson is specifying a 4-step solution:

1) remove whatever factor allowed the slime to flourish in the first place.

2) increase the pH to 8 or more. To get a sudden increase in pH you could shut down the CO2, add aeration and mix a strong base into the water. Sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) would do the job.

3) add a non-phosphate dispersant. This helps break up the slime. The most common dispersant I know of is Calgon, but that is phosphate-based. I don't know what other dispersants might be available.

4) remove the dispersed slime. Filter it, use a UV sterilizer, use antibiotics. Do whatever it takes to kill and/or remove the dispersed slime.

You won't be able to remove the slime-forming organisms from your tank. You should be able to avoid the conditions that allowed them to flourish.

As to your other questions:

You might be able to find sodium nitrate or calcium nitrate. I would just stick with potassium nitrate.

I know nothing about oxolinic acid.

As far as the blackout questions are concerned, Cavan is a better source of information than I am. I've never done a blackout.

Roger Miller


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I am almost 100% positive that the cause of slime outbreaks is very low nitrates. That has happened every time it has showed up. The only other possibility that I can think of is that it just likes big changes in the tank. I don't know why it doesn't go away when levels go back up though. 

Why isn't this stuff more common? 

I personally wouldn't raise the pH like that. That sounds like something that could do a lot of harm. To the fish anyway. Try a UV first, and if that doesn't work, do the blackout. That is the best way!


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

The question I would have about any efficacy of the use of a UV sterilizer is that it only kills what passes through the channel around the bulb, and then, only if the dwell time (the water flow is sufficiently slow for the bacteria or algae, which is killed at lower dwell times than are bacteria) is sufficient to allow enough time for the causative organism to be in "contact" with the light for long enough time for the UV rays to kill it. If this slime is so thick and heavy, it surely wouldn't even pass through the sterilizer for it's causative organism to be killed. Cavan, are you sure that would have any effect at all. Maybe we ought to start talking blow-torch...j/k


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

A UV _has_ worked for me. Remember that the spores or whatever are still in the water. It takes time, but can work. When I first got mine, it was all gone in about a week. I also did a lot of water changes and stirred things up, so that probably helped too. Tank cleanings with a good diatom filter during that time can really help too. The weird thing is that a lot of times you can't see any trace of the stuff in the morning and when you have the UV running, it takes longer and longer to show up ever day.

I think that I either need to replace the bulb and/or clean it out. A friend of mine around here gets the slime too, but his UV is the hang on (powered by a powerhead) and looks to be more effective than mine, even though they're different versions of the same unit (Aquanetics 8 watt). I'm really not sure why that is.

I want to add that if I ever notice my _Ludwigia arcuata_ leaves getting twisty or I see small traces of BGA, I know I'd better get a handle on nitrate levels quickly or risk having the slime show up. I was slow on the draw this time and paid the price.

I did a diatiom filtration last night and at the end of it, accidentally made the filter (a System One) discharge all the powder back into the tank. 75% water change and I don't see any yet today (keeping my fingers crossed...). I'll be away for a couple days and if it's there when I get back, it's lights out.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Cavan,

Right I believe I saw something wrong with the ludwigia arcuata - it could have been slime already - but I ignored - I thought it wasn't getting enough light.

U didn't answer me yet - do you have accumulation of sinking particles? Do you do gravel wash with your diatom filter for that?

Roger - where should I be looking for calgon? fish stores or stores that sell bleach and other cleaning aids for kitchen etc? Is it an acid? How much should I dose? 

Another question - I thought until I do the blackout treatment - I should start with 4 hours of lights a day because from that point on slime starts accumulating. Actually till that point plants are synthesizing and once slime is accumulating there is no point in increasing the light intensity duration - slimes are using it instead and the stuff is accumulating more than I can vacum. Is it a good idea?

And last - how do I sterialize plants when moving them to a quarantine or to friends? bleaching? potassium pharmangant?

Aviel.


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

aviel, im reading all the posts here and it seems that i couldnt say more - but patience and imperturbability would help u - dont panic and take it easy - it takes time to get rid of all the gray slimy stuff u have there... 
dont use cannon to kill a mouse. i know its not a mouse and not even a rat







but take your time and dont make to many changes in one time - u can kill your precious fish and ruin your sensitive plants (macrandra etc.)
if you cant help it - just start everything from the beggining...


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

I would like to move some plants to another tank - how do I disinfect them?

I know that kalium permanganate kills snails and other 'living' creatures.

I know that bleching kills algae and... plants.

But what kills those cyano slimes that I have? 

Aviel.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm quite certain that a bleach bath would do it.


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

u can use potassium paramnganate - if u need i have a lot and can give u some...


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

Before going into a blackout I am considering to use UV. I think that Lori Johnston suggested not using UV because it doesn't penetrate the slime but in my case I am removing most of the slime which is filtered by the diatom so all the floating cells - still could be damaged by the UV. So I want to give it a try. But the thing is - Cavan's tank is 30 gallon and uses 8W UV, mine is 200 gallon - so if I buy an 8w - will it still be effective? Should I go higher? 15w? or it's useless anyway?

BTW - I am fertilizing as usual adding everything including phosphate in order for the plants to be strong and healthy if I need to go to a total blackout. I add KNO3, KH2PO4, Fe aiming for NO3=15, PO4 = 0.75. I read somewhere that this cyano is a result of starvation and it sometimes go away if you feed it... - I know there's the other way - starve your plants, etc - but they are weak already after 10 days of this. I also don't reduce the photoperiod such that if there's a blackout - then it shall be a complete shocking suprise for the slimes)

Aviel.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I don't really get the sinking particles. I sometimes see bits of fish waste that look slightly fluffy and slime-like (if that makes any sense), but I don't know if we're seeing the exact same thing. In the past, I've seen what looks like a floating bubbly snot, but I have never had a severe outbreak of that nature since then. I now only see a slight infestation that just won't go away. Now that I know how to prevent it, I think this will be the last time. 

I can't really say what size UV you should use. I would probably just go with one recommended for your size tank or ask in the hardware forum.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> 3) add a non-phosphate dispersant. This helps break up the slime. The most common dispersant I know of is Calgon, but that is phosphate-based. I don't know what other dispersants might be available.


Roger - I asked at my pharmacy and they said this is a stuff that is used for cleaning the "stone" that we have in kettles, etc. Is this the thing? Can I really dose it? How much should I aim to? 1-10 ppm ragne? hundreds of ppm? Is it an acid> Maybe a rule of thumb is to add this thing such as PH won't go down by more than 0.2 per day? Could I do this "shock" not during blackout? Maybe if this thing works for the slimes - I should add also erithromyzin for the cyano? I do add phosphate to the tank to keep NO3O4 to be 15:0.75 but this calgon - I really don't want it to give me algae explosion as result of PH4 = 10 ppm....

(BTW - the tank "eats" ~3ppm NO3 per day - the 'snot' evil monster says 'feeeeeed me' - and I have to feed in order to stay aways from zero NO3)

Aviel.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Lori Johnson's instructions were to use a non-phosphate dispersant. Calgon is a phophate-based dispersent. I mentioned it only as something to avoid.

The idea would be to add a non-phosphate dispersant at the time of the "shock" treatment to help break up and disperse the slimes. If you can't find a non-phosphate dispersant then it may be preferable to skip that part.

I don't know where you're going to get a non-phosphate dispersant. The only kind I am familiar with is called NW220. It's a commercial product sold in large quantities to break up drilling muds in recently drilled water wells.


Roger Miller


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

OK thanks for clarifying this dispersant issue Roger. I won't use any.

If this slime is much tougher than any fish/plants - would you still recommend a PH=8 shock? I mean - fish will die and I will find it only after lights are on while the slime may survive. 

Isn't it better to avoid this PH shock thing, do the blackout, get rid of the cyano and adopt a 'living with the slimes' approach - never kill them all but just avoid zero nitrate?

(An update - I hooked an 11 Watt UV, I also changed some bulbs because I know I won't have the courage to do so when I am done with this evil thing, I charge the diatom daily - otherwise it's clogged)

Aviel.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Just a quick update,

I have the UV installed for ~3 days now and I see no improvement.

I moved some of the plants to quarantine but I think they are not doing there well mabye because I bleached them too much. I shall try kalium pharmangant only.

The temp. is high - at the end of the last 'day' it went up to 29C (84F). I don't want to invest extra additional $$ in a chilling device... I shall do that only if I am sure that I stay in the hobby. I know it's bad but I can't cool the tank.

I believe blackout could solve the problem but only temporarily as I don't have the right conditions.

I read that cyano is a combination of very low NO3 with high DOC. What is this DOC? practially - what does it mean? Is it the "dirt" that I see piling quickly on the bottom of the tank? There are not so many fish and I don't feed too much at all. Maybe it's the blood worms? new born artemia that are contributing to this?

Aviel.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

An intermediate update,

The cyano slimes are gradually diminishing but I am wondering whether they will totally disappear.

What I did:

- Improved circulation.
- Replaced 1/3 of the bulbs.
- *Hooked up UV*
- Hooked up the Diatom filter.
- Turned on the AC such that tempratures are 25.5-27.0.
- Did 60% water change, 50% osmosys, 50% new tap water (didn't let time for chloramin to evaporate)

Daily maintenance:

- 15 ppm NO3 : 0.75 ppm PO4 - 20:1 ratio that favors green algae. Tank eats 2.5 ppm NO3 + 0.2 PO4 per day!
- Daily one hour hand removal of the slimes which are then floating to the surface and going into the filters.

Results:

- Almost no more pearling slimes.
- Tiny pieces of black slimes are not visible on most cases unless I stir the plant, in which case they float to the surface.
- Diatom still clogged with slimes but less and less every day.
- Good plants pearling.
- Plants look 6. They used to look 8. 
- The ludwigia spec cuba looks bad. 
- The alternathera Reinekii lowers leaves have holes and it's losing them steadily. Generally lower leaves look bad. The potassium that I dose comes from the KNO3. Maybe I should add some K2SO4?
- Lost rare apistogramma fishes. No new borns for two months now and I have guppies and mollies and platies in there... I see pregnant fish but no babies. I suspect the two false SAEs(??)

Aviel.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

If the UV is working, and it sounds like it is, it will slowly disappear. What you've described sounds like what happens. 

The plants usually will not look as good while the UV is running (at least full-time). That's normal, but better than they would otherwise. 

Keep at it, and if the slime is still there after a while, do the blackout. I think removing the more sensitive plants, risnisng them really well, storing them where they have decent light for a while, and then returning them when the blackout is over is probably an acceptable solution.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Cavan,

I fully agree with your strategy!! I prepared a quarantine about a week ago but it seems like I bleached the plants to death so I shall have to redo but this time sterializing using only with kalium pharmangant.

But just would like to understand - why is it that when UV is on - plants don't look good? I can understand that it breaks the iron chelates but that shouldn't be an issue if I do a daily dose - no? I don't believe I see signs of iron deficiency. Are there any other broken chelates as result of this UV? I know people in my country that have UV light turned on at all times and their tank looks real good.

I suspect that what I witness is caused by potassium deficiency. I shall add one DASH of K2SO4 for each DASH of KNO3 and see.

I find the hyro polysperma sunset both a beautiful plant and a good indicator. It would turn red when Nitrates are down. It will wrinkle when calcium/magnesium uptake is down (if I dose too much potassium) and its old leaves shall have hundreds of small holes if there's lack of potassium.

Thank you for the support!

Aviel.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> But just would like to understand - why is it that when UV is on - plants don't look good? I can understand that it breaks the iron chelates but that shouldn't be an issue if I do a daily dose - no? I don't believe I see signs of iron deficiency. Are there any other broken chelates as result of this UV? I know people in my country that have UV light turned on at all times and their tank looks real good.


I know that some people do have a UV on all the time without any problems, but I am not so lucky. Why? It may be the strength of the unit or something else that affects the efficiency of the unit. There is a *big* difference between when I have it on and off. Definite iron problems. I'm not sure if other elements are affected as well.

I suspect that some of your current problems are a combination of the UV being on and unrelated (?) nutrient imbalances.



> quote:
> 
> Thank you for the support!


No problem. Let me know how it goes.


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

aviel wrote:


> quote:
> 
> - Lost rare apistogramma fishes


unfortunately you have lost too much time and tried several things with minimal impact on the outbreak.

my experience was, that if the basic changes do not help (better filtering, water circulation, darkening the tank for days), there is no quicker way, then using antibiotics. it will take no negative effect on the plants, fis or filter, etc. the algae falls off completely within days. a good filter and water change will clear the water.

an uv-lamp makes sence in cases of green water - the most cyano bacteria are not floating so it will not kill it completely.

a little bit off topic: i was told by some aquarists, they use the uv-lamp only occasionally - a long-term use of an uv-lamp makes the conditions in the tank very sterile - this makes the fish very sensitive to diseases!
it is possible to maintain a good working and healthy tank without using an army of different devices...


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Azet,

Have you won cyano _with gray/black slimes_ using antibiotics?

Which antibiotic? Erythromyzin?

I was told here that antibiotics won't crack the slimes.

Aviel.


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

yes aviel, my tank was looking even worse then yours on the pictures you´ve posted - same thing and used erythromyzin. when i started the dosage, the first 2-3 days no visible impact was seen. on the 4th or 5th day the slime was changing the color, whitened a little bit and it wasn´t that compact anymore (more floating particles). i used an internal filter for clearing the water, the filter media was cleaned daily. after 6-7 days i could take out the bigger pieces of the slime with tweezers and the rest i sucked out with a hose.

after 8-10 days the plants started to recover, the water was clean and no flashback of the bacteria-i have stopped the dosage. there was a phase of few days after the dosage, where some bushy grey algae were growing near the filteroutlet, but could be removed. after some regular waterchanges the algae disappeared completely.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

OK,

It's such a great thing to be able to share experience from thousands of miles away - if this thing happend to me 20 years ago....

Here's the current status and plans - 

Cavan, you were absolutely right - the main deficiency was indeed iron. The UV light seems to break it veerry fast. The gymnocoronys which I thought was very very hardy plant started having brown edges on the new growing leaves. The Mayaca fluitavilis was starting to look bad - the edges were whitish and yesterday "legacy" green/blue bacteria slimes caught it!!!. Eloda tips were brown. I therefore dosed quite a bit of iron, I added also potassium and phosphate but I didn't have to add KNO3 because NO3 was stunted... All plants started to recover in a matter of hours. Even the Ludwidiga Cuba. Thing is Cuba won't show 'yellowing edges' - it will just look bad.

Now this standard blue/green slimes catching those plants which suffer (mayaca and also H. Callitroides) was scary - it showed me that although the slimes are minimized - still there's this bacteria all over the place.

Therefore, before going into a total blackout, I shall quarantine some precious plants once again but this time without bleaching and I shall use the Erythromyzin on day1, day2, day4 and day8. 2.5 mg/L. I have the feeling that the poor slimes won't be able to fight back!!!

On the days when I dose the antibiotics - should I have the diatom working? Do I want it filter things or do I want it to shut up and let the medicine attack the evil enemy? Same question for the water circulation powerheads.

If that doesn't work then blackout + pray time,

Please fill free to review this plan, I need your inputs.

Aviel.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

Two days ago there was no sign for the slimes! But "standard" green slimes here and there and especially on the mayaca fluitavilis. And many floating particles that appeared once I removed the diatom filter.

Started dosing Erythromycin - 

Day 1 - 3.7 mg/L
Day 2 - 2.7 mg/L

Mayaca fluitavilis and Hemianthus Callitroides have green hair algae... some of it could be the cyano - hard to tell.

Future plan consists of doszing only on 4'th and 6'th day.

Am I dosing enough? Cavan? Azet? Roger? Anyone? I understand that I don't have too many trials here so this is why I ask!!

Aviel.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

So the grey slime is gone? You're just having trouble with the "regular" cyano? Have you been keeping track of nutrient levels? It may take a little while to get things back into a routine. 

As far as the antibiotic goes, I always just went with the dosing instructions on the package. I don't know how many milligrams per litre and so forth. I do remember though, that it can take a couple days for the regular cyano to disappear because of that treatment.


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

i have mixed the suspension according to the instructions (20g of the powder with 48ml of distilled water = 60ml of the ready suspension). 

the daily dosage was appr. 6ml for my 50L tank.

it is appr. 5mg of erythromycin/1L, but i think your planned dosage will be efficient.

the duration of the treatment depends on the reaction of the algae, but should last min. 6-9 days. in my case, i have seen an impact on the algae after 3 days of dosage.

good luck aviel!


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Then I suspect that I am not dosing enough!

Azet - U dosed 5mg/L for each day of the 10 days right?

And I was hoping to get away with dosing only on day 1, day 2, day 4 & day 8.

For a 200 gallons tank dosing 5 mg/L per day costs 20$ per day. It's so expensive!

Aviel.


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

i have discussed the dosage and the treatment back when i had the algae problem on a slovak aquaforum (www.akva.sk). everyone had a little different experience with the dosage and the duration, somebody was telling me about succesfull dosege for 5-6 days...

i am not an expert, i used the antibiotics only once, but i think, 3,7mg/L dosed for few days should help.

btw, thats a horrible price for the medicament,
the bottle with 20g of the powder costs appr. 6 USD in slovakia...


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Just a quick update -

No visible sign for the slimes for over a week now although if I use the diatom filter then I can see grayish stuff mixed with the white powder.

I have been bombing the tank with 5mg/L Erythromycin for the last 6 days. I started it once I saw "normal" blue/green slimes but now I know that 80% was green algae. Maybe it's my over reaction to this horrible nightmare.

So now my tank seems to favor the green algae... ;-) green thread algae on mayaca and some of the macrandra - I cut off micors+iron. Also some green spot algae and I am reducing N ratio to 13:1....

The one thing that bothers me, still, is the low quaility mechanical filtering. I have a long tank - 8 feet long - And I have now a rather weak old Eheim 2217 sucking from the middle of the tank with output on the left side. I also have Eheim professional 2 - sucking from the right side with output on the middle. Water is not clear!! And this should be yet another contributor to cyano - right?

And I know why apistos died!! There was a measurable nitrite!!! I was so used to 0 readings on ammonia/nitrite that I just skipped those tests!! But probably the dead slimes added more than plants and filters could eat.

And searching the data base here I can clearly see that this grey slime is not that rare... - Cavan, Azet, Ghostie, Captain & bobo31 had it!!!...

bobo31 case

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=8796060812&m=1916040675&r=1916040675#1916040675

Captain's case

Aviel.


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## peterli (Jun 7, 2004)

Hi,

I noticed the similarity of this post with
another forum:

diatom algae

Good luck,
Peter


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## bobo31 (May 8, 2004)

Just wanted to share my experience on this because I had the same problem about 5-6 months ago.

The problem for me was my ferts were way out of balance. Basically I was a newbie and didn't know what I was doing.

After a few people gave me some insight I did a three day black out followed by a water change and then dosing the right amount of ferts and it was gone. No more black slime stuff.

HTH,
Robert.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Peterli,

The link that you gave doesn't show the thing that I had. But I believe it is yet another type of BGA because it is associated with nitrate = 0 and because it grows overnight and because it is cleaned very easily.

bobo31,

I was afraid to go the blackout path because I was afraid to lose some of my rare plants and was afraid to have too few fast growing "functional" plants for good tank health. So I had to take the high no3







o4 ratio path + UV and finally medicate.

Every day or two I replace 30% of the water because my nitrite levels go up to 0.25 ppm. There could be 3 reasons for that: biological filter death in spite of all gram+/gram- theories, cyano/slime death, poor plants growth because I don't dose iron for a week now (green hair algae here and there).

Anyway my biggest problem is the water flow. I have a long 8 feet tank. An Eheim 2217 is responsible for the left side and its effective rate is 50 gallons per hour instead of the rated 250 gallons per hour. I bought a used one and the guy at the store said that Eheim throughput never goes down... Eheim througput is poor and gets poor as it gets old. I think ATMAN 3338 should be able to work just fine as a mechanical filter.

Aviel.


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## bobo31 (May 8, 2004)

You just reminded me, the one other thing I changed was my filter I also had poor water flow. I was using an ecco with an inline reactor and my flow was very low for some reason. Then I upgraded to a bigger ehiem(can remember the model number) but it is the smallest one with the intergrated heater. I have never really figured out if the dosing was the real fix or if the filter upgrade did the trick. Sorry I totally forgot about the filter upgrade until you said something about low flow.

Robert.


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

i have mentioned it allready in my first post in this thread, that the water movement had a direct inpact on algae in may case.

since my accident i have learned, that a slow biological filtration is as necessary as a fast mechanical filtration. now i have both. the bigger the tank, the bigger the demands on the filter...

i also renewed my filter media after the algae disappeared, as the old media were fully blocked up after the outbreak (probably the dead algae), and a really cleaning was not possible anymore (i think)


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi,

I wouldn't worry too much about biological filtration - my plants are doing great job. Actually I have never had measurable ammonia/nitrite throughout the setup of this tank. Now I do have some nitrite.

Regarding the mechanical filtration - which filter do you use? what is the effective performance per gallons of tank? what's your tank size?

Thanks,

Aviel.


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## azet (Apr 6, 2003)

aviel wrote:


> quote:
> 
> Regarding the mechanical filtration - which filter do you use? what is the effective performance per gallons of tank? what's your tank size?


hehe, well, my tanks are really tiny compared to your tank dimensions







you can view some of them on my homepage www.azet.akva.sk under "foto"...

in the tank, where i had the outbreak (appr. 60L), i use now a big block of "filter sponge"? with a powerhead on it (appr 50L/h). in the second corner i installed a small internal quickfilter which is cleaned weekly (during waterchange). I have tuned the filter with small pieces of fine foam and filterwool, so that the water is really clear. i guess it pumps the tank volume 3 times/h...
is seated a little bit lower, that the water surface isn´t moved strongly.

p.s. i maintain some large tanks, where we mostly use hydor canister filters. the atman canister filters aren´t bad, but are a little bit louder or get louder with the time and nobody really knows, what the "lifeexpectation" is (some aquarists in slovakia call the atmans "a cheap eheim")...i allways thought, that eheim is something like state of the art, but your experience is little bit different


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

And here's the price that I have to pay for the ciano "after glow" - as I explained the minute I knew this was ciano I was bombing my tank with nitrates and also phosphates, favoring plants and green algae. This helped plants grow but now when the bacteria is dead, plants are having much more food and I just dread the weekly pruning "ordeal". In the past month I couldn't care less about how my tank looks and thus you can hardly see the nice tree and rocks in there -










My right side aquascape is ruined -










The macrandra on the left side grows 50 cm in 3 weeks









Now with non zero nitrite levels I am just afraid to start the hair cut + aquascape I need plant load to zero my ammonia/nitrite - maybe I will cut few stems every day. Oh boy. Still a lon way to go out of this mess.

Aviel.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Wow, I really love how your red plants look. Could you share any tips on that ? Many people mention that red plants will have more red in nitrate limited tank (low level), do you feel the same way?


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Ninob,

I am trying to stay away from low nitrates - since I don't have an accurate test kit my nitrates where ~0 while I thought they were 5 ppm and I got this nastiest ciano/slime that this thread is talking about.

I still am not through with this - not sure if Erythromycin really killed the slimes. After trimming the left part of the aquarium I can see those brown/white pieces floating and never being sucked up by the filters. My Diatom filter is 'tired'!! Maybe these are the dead pieces of ciano but I don't think that I am through yet!!! 

Shall I really lose some of my plants if I go for a blackout?

Aviel.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Erithromycin should work very well to get rid of those cyano. How many days of treatment is the tank on right now?

I'm not a fan of black out. Maybe it works but I refused to do it even when my tank was infested with 3 kinds of algaes a few months back. Maybe someone who's done it before would tell you


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi Aviel,
I just recently read your post. After seeing your pics, I knew I had identified whats been plaguing my tank now for the past couple mos. I've been treating my 55 gal tank with 5 day treatment of erithromycin to get rid of the cyano (at least thats what I thought it was) but it always came back with a vengance. I'm still battling this evil stuff but always tried to keep my nitrates at 10-20 ppm according to my test kit readings, but I have noticed it's not always accurate. I think I may have bottomed out my nitrates at one point which may have started this thing but since keeping the high levels I still haven't gotten rid of it. 

Iv'e been thinking my next approach is to try and do a blackout period with an extra long period of erithromycin, but this is getting expensive. I didn't want to do the blackout period either since I have expensive discus that I'm unsure how it will affect them.

I'm on the verge of giving up, and just selling everything. I also noticed in my tank that there was a lack of pearling in my plants that I couldn't seem to help. If you've got any advice you've found that could help, I'd appreciate it!

Lois


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Lois,

I am in that stage where I don't know if I won the war or not! I guess not!

It used to generate those slimes that are in the pictures every day after few hours of lights but not any more. 

But now after I haven't been medicating for the last few days I can see that there are floating particles and if I stir the plants then I get my water column pretty dirty for a while. So maybe it's just the die off and the last word from the evil and maybe it is just that it coats the leaves slowly but surely and at some point shall attack back like in the pictures. I don't know.

I "won" it using UV sterialization. I medicated after it was gone - "just to be sure"...

A day or two before the outburst there was no pearling - but my explanation is that nitrates were 0 so plants were starving. I too get low pearling if I am missing fertilization elements - for example lately I stopped dosing iron in order to battle "post ciano green thread algae disorder". I also suspect that lack of pearling is because of this unseen coating on the leaves.

I don't think discus shall be stressed because of darkness although I am not the expert. I do think that when this material starts to die the excess in nitrites could stress/kill the discus.

Aviel.


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Aviel,

I've never heard of "post ciano green thread algae disorder". Could you please tell me what this is? 

When at it's worse, the cyano in my thank would coat the tops of my plants and spread across the surface of the water. I've been dosing erithromycin and have had my lights out for about a day and 1/2 now. I only turn them on to feed the fish for 5 min. each day. Today when I did this, I noticed tiny fiber-like threads (from the dying cyano?) on the glass. Could this be what you're refering to? 

Lois


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Lois,

"post ciano green thread algae disorder" is just my private joke. What I mean is - when your aquarium is off the high way having low nitrates which cause cyano outbreak you try to turn the wheel as hard as you can to the high nitrate zone so when the cyano is down, it's time for some green algae to take over. This is exactly what I thought I saw when the evil started fading away... (I hope you are aware of post traumatic stress disorder in psychology...)

I haven't experienced polymers on the glass - I just see tiny particles floating and my "tired" diatom either can't suck them or can't filter them because it's worn out.

I thought that blackout is blackout without light for 5 minutes and with thick blankets such that there's no light. Fish can survive a week without food. The scary thing about this is when you open the lights and all you red plants are either green or dead - this is what I am fearing but maybe I am exaggerating - I mean people ship plants for a couple of days in closed containers overseas and plants survive... I just need to hear someone here telling me that my plants will survive before I go into darkness..

Are you using UV?

Aviel.


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## Lois (Jul 28, 2003)

Aviel,



> quote:
> 
> I thought that blackout is blackout without light for 5 minutes and with thick blankets such that there's no light.


Do you mean 5 days? I'm not doing complete blackout with blankets because I'm not that courageous. I'm just keeping the lights off which keeps the tank pretty dark along with the erithromycin treatment. I'm hoping this will do the trick for me because erithromycin alone didn't cure the cyano fully since it returned as soon as the treatment was over.

I don't have a UV sterilizer. I haven't priced them yet, but am imagining they're pretty expensive.

One thing I noteced while reading this thread is that this bacteria which I have always called it is referred to as cyanophyte. Is this the same as cyanobacteria or is it similar?

BTW, the pics. of your tank are beautiful! You did a great joy aquascaping it. I can't even tell you've had a problem. I wish mine looked so good. With the extended problems I've had battling this algae along with others mine looks less then healthy. I hope to keep in touch to see how you're making out.

Lois


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

An update,

Trimmed the right side - what do you think?










Wife says I should have planted red cabomba everywhere - a red cabomba tank...









Bombed for 5-6 days in a row with 5mg/L Erythromycin, starved the fish for 4 days + stopped iron fertilization in order to get rid of green thread algae and it's gone but still there's some green hair algae. Nitrite level is constantly at 0.25 ppm. I am watching the depth of the tank - 8 feets are clear but maybe tiny particles - I don't want them to grow... so I turned on the UV - so from now on - no medication - just UV... I guess tomorrow I will find some more plants suffering for some odd reason - will see. I am just afraid that I am not done yet - oh god.

Aviel.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

Guess what....

It's back -























After two month of quiet - it's back.

I turned off the UV 3 weeks ago - I wish I didn't do that.

Now this time nitrate measure 10, maybe it was down to 7-8 and it's hard for me to believe that AP test kit is that off. On the other hand plants showed signs of nitrate deficiency (also potassium deficiency) so maybe that kit is really off.

But one thing is for sure - it appeared first on that day when temprature went up to 87... yes warm water seem to accelerate bacteria.

And as I said - it shall never go away - anyway - I shall go away way before it shall go away.

Since I identified the problem earlier I raised nitrate to 20-30 ppm and started a 10 day Erythromycin treatement using 5 mg/L.

BTW Cavan, when you had this fourth burst - what did you actually do? blackout? replaced some water?

Aviel.


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## MOR B. (Oct 9, 2003)

aviel, can u show close ups of your cianobacteria? r u sure its ciano this time as well? im seeing here n there a few ugly spots of algea stuck between the front glass n the eleocharis or the glosso, n im defenetly sure its not ciano ...
just removing it n stear the water+ water change worked 4 me


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

absolutely 100% sure - same ciano, same form, this time small slimes with a nice oxygen bubble on top, attacking the mayaca, elodea first and then some others... when stirring the plants there's dust of ciano all over the place - this is disgusting.

What bothers me is that really this time I wasn't shooting for low nitrate 5 ppm. I was shooting for 10 ppm and maybe it went down just a little. 

But maybe this time I was dosing a little too much of phosphate. That is 10 ppm N : 1.5 ppm PO4 which is lower than the 10:1 limit - which means maybe although there was enough N - plants couldn't take it because of P inhibition. I was under the impression that the higher the phosphate level the faster the N being consumed. This might be true but when there's too much P it blocks N. This is why Ciano comes not only when N is 0 but also when N is small.

Aviel.


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