# am I overstocked?



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

My tank is a 29 gal, with an Emperor 400 filter.

Currently its residents are:

3 Apistogramma cacatuiodes (1m/2f), F0
2 Microgeophagus altispinosa
11 neon tetra
6 diamond tetra
1 corydoras schwartzii
1 plecostomus (bristlenose catfish)


I plan to get 9 more neon tetras to get the school up to 20 and 4 more diamond tetras to get that school up to 10, and then the tank will be full in my opinion.

(Edit: I also will be doing a planted tank using pressurized Co2. Just waiting for my Co2 diffusor, ferts from Greg Watson and the plants themselves.)

In terms of bio-load given my existing filtration, am I "over-stocked" and if so what do you base your opinion on?

Thanks


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## Gumby (Aug 1, 2005)

Emperor 400 on a 29g? Sweet jebus, how are your fish not all in the filter? Thats a ton of flow for that tank. 

As far as being overstocked... Yeah, you're really close if not there already. It'll definately be overstocked when you get 9 more neons. 

You do have a lot of filtration to handle the bio load, but that's just a lot of fish for that size tank. I could foresee problems with agression/territory. In addition to that, the end result of all that waste being broken down is nitrates, they'll just steadily climb higher and higher unless you do water changes to dilute them or plant the tank really heavily so that the plants will consume the nitrate.


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

I think your tank is ALREADY overstocked...

And I'm afraid it is also definitely too small for a plecostomus...


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Mellonman said:


> I think your tank is ALREADY overstocked...


Because....?



Mellonman said:


> And I'm afraid it is also definitely too small for a plecostomus...


Nah, not all plecos are giants. This one will never get bigger than about 3 inches long. I've had him for quite a long time too.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Part of it depends on how often you do your water changes. It's not horribly overstocked if you have it fairly heavily planted, and you do at least weekly water changes.
One thing I can say with certainty is that you need to get that poor Cory some friends.... 

A Bristlenose can really add to the load of a tank, so that is one thing to take into consideration. I know they are way smaller than the common Plec (which I wish they wouldn't sell at all), but they still produce a pretty good waste load for a little guy.


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

banderbe said:


> Because....?
> 
> Nah, not all plecos are giants. This one will never get bigger than about 3 inches long. I've had him for quite a long time too.


Because you have too many fish in my opinion... what can I say more ? 

OK for the pleco, I did not know that there were small ones...


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## BleatingHeart (Nov 21, 2005)

Your Pleco is how big?
Two bottom feeders in this tank is too much!! 
Are you giving your pleco extra veggies? They need to eat a LOT of food, and they give off a LOT of waste. They are like the elephants in the aquarium world. Just be sure he is getting enough food, or he will die slowly of starvation. This is the biggest mistake Pleco owners make. I am a huge Pleco fan 



Mellonman said:


> I think your tank is ALREADY overstocked...
> 
> And I'm afraid it is also definitely too small for a plecostomus...


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## BleatingHeart (Nov 21, 2005)

Even the small varieties need a lot to eat. A favorite of theirs is Green Zuchinni. Also remeber they need a variety of foods to stay healthy.
I have a female yellow Bristle nose that is pretty big, about 4". The male is a little smaller. They actually had babies last year. I had a great daddy fish who took excellent care of them  
9 of them made it to adulthood an into new homes.
I also have a sailfin Pleco in a 55 gallon. He is pretty big at 12" - 13" and very active for being so large. He is being moved to a 100 gallon tank that my brother is settin up soon. He'll probably keep growing too! Yikes!!!



Mellonman said:
 

> Because you have too many fish in my opinion... what can I say more ?
> 
> OK for the pleco, I did not know that there were small ones...


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

BleatingHeart said:


> Your Pleco is how big?
> Two bottom feeders in this tank is too much!!
> Are you giving your pleco extra veggies? They need to eat a LOT of food, and they give off a LOT of waste. They are like the elephants in the aquarium world. Just be sure he is getting enough food, or he will die slowly of starvation. This is the biggest mistake Pleco owners make. I am a huge Pleco fan


The species is Ancistrus temminicki, which grows to a maximum size of 4".

I don't feed him anything different from the rest of my tank, which all receive European Shrimp Mix, made by me from scratch.

He gets his veggies from the surface of everything in the tank. I've had him for six months or so, and he's very active and appears healthy.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Mellonman said:


> Because you have too many fish in my opinion... what can I say more ?
> 
> OK for the pleco, I did not know that there were small ones...


the pleco i have is Ancistrus temminicki. Google for it.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

JanS said:


> Part of it depends on how often you do your water changes. It's not horribly overstocked if you have it fairly heavily planted, and you do at least weekly water changes.
> One thing I can say with certainty is that you need to get that poor Cory some friends....
> 
> A Bristlenose can really add to the load of a tank, so that is one thing to take into consideration. I know they are way smaller than the common Plec (which I wish they wouldn't sell at all), but they still produce a pretty good waste load for a little guy.


Well the tank will be fairly densely planted, and since I am using the EI method I do water changes of 50% every week.


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

banderbe said:


> the pleco i have is Ancistrus temminicki. Google for it.


Oh OK, I know this fish....

As far as I know, it is then not a pleco.
I think plecostomus and ancistrus are two different species.

An ancistrus temmincki is fine for your size of tank...


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Mellonman said:


> As far as I know, it is then not a pleco.
> I think plecostomus and ancistrus are two different species.


It is actually a "Pleco", for what it's worth. Unfortunately, when most people say Pleco/Plecostomus, they immediately think the common Pleco. There are hundreds+ that could essentially be called Plecos.


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

JanS said:


> It is actually a "Pleco", for what it's worth. Unfortunately, when most people say Pleco/Plecostomus, they immediately think the common Pleco. There are hundreds+ that could essentially be called Plecos.


OK, my mistake... sorry... :-#


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

haha, topic sidetracked but just to note some kind folks at DATZ put together the 'L' numbers for 'plecos', L for family name Loricariidae... L387 and counting! amazing mag. 15 years of.

IMO one bristle nose is fine but it swishes it's tail to uproot the small fg plants that haven't taken hold. scrapes off wood for digestion if i'm not mistaken. you get all this little dark brown quarter rings of poo. haha.
this fella will breed quite easily i'm told. i have 3 albino and 1 juvenile bristle nose. gonna lay some pipe for them haha...it's not in planted tank btw, it's wooded tank.

i don't think you are seriously over stocked since you have good wc routine but the apistos are very territorial when they pair up. the may have a go with your altispinosa. 
you have chosen some small but territorial fish...[once they pair up]

another note, if you intend to add let's say 9 neons, you may want to remove the diamond tets as trade off.

i'd consider either giving up the cory or getting it some friends. poor thing as jans says...


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

If your tank is overstocked then mine must be sardines...i wont put the specs but its been doing well for over a year.. really depends on how you do the maintenance.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm not sure who makes the overcrowded rules. People look at inches of fish when what really matters is mass. Heavier fish = more metabolism = more bioload. I'm sure one mature angel weighs more than 20 neons. When you propose 20 neons in a 29 gal with a bunch of other fish people freak out. If you wanted to add one angel (or other big fish) people somehow don't think its as big of a deal.

In a 46 gal bowfront I've got: 1 mature angel, 3 glass cats, 1 cory (no sense in having one - I agree), 3 otos, 3 siamensis, 3 threadfin rainbows, 2 bosemani rainbows, 1 ram, 6 neons, 6 zebra danios, and 6 congo tetras. I also have about 20 species of plants. This is certainly overstocked by any rational definition, but I have my reasons. I'm trying to experiment with different things for a future tank in the 100-200 gallon range.

My eventual plan is:
8-10 congos
20 cardinals
15 rummynose
6 glass cats
5 bosemanis
4-5 rams
8 threadfins
6 siamensis
6 otos
6 cories
maybe some hatchetfish to live up top.

Apart from the angel, I've tried to stay with things that are completely compatible. For some reason this particular angel is well behaved but he does keep the congos from coming out much. I think the high rate of NH4 that is produced is partly responsible for my algae problems.

Don't skimp on the H2O changes. I've been doing 1/2 per week (EI method) and I've liked the results. The fish and plants always look happier after.

As for the pleco/not pleco/whatever it is -- I've kind of given up on those. I might like a zebra pleco someday if I can stomach the price tag, but the rest are starting to look like ugly bottom-dwelling sucker fish to me. The siamensis are infinately more fun to watch.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

standoyo said:


> i don't think you are seriously over stocked since you have good wc routine but the apistos are very territorial when they pair up. the may have a go with your altispinosa.
> you have chosen some small but territorial fish...[once they pair up]


That was a concern of mine prior to buying the pair of apistos. I did quite a lot of reading and consultation with other apisto owners and breeders, and came to the conclusion that with a heavily planted tank there should not be any problems.

When the pair arrived, I acclimated them in the dark, put food in shortly before introduction to distract the other fish, and also at the time the tank was moderately planted with some little 3" clay pot caves since apistos are cave spawners.

They adjusted wonderfully, and I never saw *any* aggression between the altispinosas and apistos. Granted, my water is very hard and slightly alkaline so there is no chance of apistos trying to breed which as I understand it is when they start getting really aggressive.

Unfortunately, at the time I was doing a lo-tech tank and it failed badly so the plants are all gone now and I'm waiting until after christmas to finish my high-tech co2 injected system before tearing the tank down and restarting with ecocomplete, co2 and lots of CF lighting. But, the male apisto hid under a piece of driftwood and would NOT come out and he died. The female is very bold and she's still alive and doing great. I am going to get another pair when the tank is back to fully planted. This works out good because then I get a 2 female to 1 male ratio which is really better than 1 to 1.

long story longer, a heavily planted 29 gallon can house apistos of different complexes and apistos with other cichlids like the altispinosa with no problem, unless and until the fish breed which you can prevent by simply not giving them soft acidic water.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

ranmasatome said:


> If your tank is overstocked then mine must be sardines...i wont put the specs but its been doing well for over a year.. really depends on how you do the maintenance.


Oh, come on! 'Fess up!


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Nope... i've had pple condemn me all the time for this tank... but if you ask any fish photographer.. all my fish in this tank have really nice finnage and colouration... no disease of anysort for the entire time period it was up. fish and plants are all good.. almost my favourite tank.. and yet also my most condemned one..lol..


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

haha excellent views all round...
main concern of overstocking is mostly waste elimination by the filtration/plants... but you guys knew that.

some people have a lot of fish[overstock] but feed so little the point becomes moot.

there's only a general rule, that's why the inches of fish per gallon thing is like the WPG IMO. a general rule for newbies, hardly relevant for such advanced hobbyists here on this forum. hahaha.
...once you know the general rules, bend it by all means.

it's interesting you keep apistos in hard water, norbert's by comparison is almost distilled at below 6ph [haha] but his is not planted and x-low stocking levels.

in the end only by trying and test you will know for sure...if ammonia is up/present then you know for sure you are overstocked. if nitrates are up then your EI method will take care of that.

things to note is by having more fish, competition for food becomes intense. apisto's are shy and this could be a consideration for you...you then feed more but end up with more waste so that's why you need to weigh some of the points members here put up...decision is up to you boss. muahaha! am i evil?
:snakeman:


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