# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Nutrient problem in Echinodorus



## Drax7 (Feb 19, 2004)

My 125-gallon tank has developed a nutrient problem that strangely only seems to affect Echinodorus. My E. bleheri, E. parviflorus, and E. tenellus all have a problem where the older leaves develop chlorosis and then start to decay, finally leaving only a flimsy transparent gray skeleton of a leaf.

What is really strange is that this problem doesn't affect slower-growing plants such as Anubias, Crypt. wendtii, or Bolbitis fern. Nor does it affect faster-growing plants such as Hygrophila polysperma, Limnophila sessiliflora, or Rotala rotundifolia.

The substrate is play sand over topsoil. There is no added CO2. Lighting is 100W NO fluorescent (4x F25T8 on electronic ballast). Temperature is 78F. pH is 8.0 (measured right before lights-on, since it increases throughout the day), GH is 12 degrees. PO4 is off the scale of my test kit, > 5ppm. The only fertilizer I add is KNO3.

I first thought that NO3 shortage might be the problem, but I've been running at 40 ppm NO3 for a month now with no improvement in the symptoms.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated!


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## Drax7 (Feb 19, 2004)

My 125-gallon tank has developed a nutrient problem that strangely only seems to affect Echinodorus. My E. bleheri, E. parviflorus, and E. tenellus all have a problem where the older leaves develop chlorosis and then start to decay, finally leaving only a flimsy transparent gray skeleton of a leaf.

What is really strange is that this problem doesn't affect slower-growing plants such as Anubias, Crypt. wendtii, or Bolbitis fern. Nor does it affect faster-growing plants such as Hygrophila polysperma, Limnophila sessiliflora, or Rotala rotundifolia.

The substrate is play sand over topsoil. There is no added CO2. Lighting is 100W NO fluorescent (4x F25T8 on electronic ballast). Temperature is 78F. pH is 8.0 (measured right before lights-on, since it increases throughout the day), GH is 12 degrees. PO4 is off the scale of my test kit, > 5ppm. The only fertilizer I add is KNO3.

I first thought that NO3 shortage might be the problem, but I've been running at 40 ppm NO3 for a month now with no improvement in the symptoms.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated!


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## ~SP~ (May 30, 2004)

Can you check and tell the condition of their root system?


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

I think a morning pH of 8 might be getting close to being too high. Is there any way to convince you to start adding CO2 to your tank? The swords sound like thay are resorbing the nutrients from old leaves to grow new ones. That generally indicates a shortage of something, here it's obviously CO2 but I think that iron might be missing.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

I have a few Echinodorus in my cichlid tank (pH 7.8, no CO2). One of them always show that symptom when the root tablet under it is gone. Do you use any? It recovers right away after I stick another tablet underneath. I don't even dose iron, PO4 and KNO3 (2wpg). Nitrate level is enough from my dirty cichlids.


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## Drax7 (Feb 19, 2004)

SP, The only way I can check their root system would be too pull them up. Given that it's a soil tank, I'm loathe to do that!







Actually, I have pulled up some of the E. tenellus in the course of pruning and the roots always look fine. Not black or stunted, if that's what your getting at.

Sean, as to CO2, no, I can't be convinced. I know there are others who grow Echinodorus without CO2. Why do you think that's what the shortage is of? I would have thought that a CO2 problem would have affected newer leaves rather than older leaves.

ninob, I'm not using root tablets, but I'm tempted to try. What kind do you use? Do they have a lot of nitrogen in them? The yellowing older leaves are normally associated with NO3 shortage. I would have thought that the 40 ppm NO3 in the tank would be plenty, but maybe it's having a hard time absorbing through the leaves?


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

If the leaves are turning white then dying, it could be a K/Calcium issue. Apparently, when K levels are too high, the uptake/use or calcium is adversely affected. Dosing 40ppm KNO3 would be the cause. You don't need this much, even if it is not a K issue.

Another idea would be is that this "just happens." I've seen older leaves die off (as you are describing) on a regular basis on a sword plant in a tank that was never cared for. The fish were rarely fed, the water never changed, no fertilization, poor lighting, and plain 'ol gravel for a substrate. However, the rest of the leaves stayed relatively green. I would say the main factor in this tank's problems would be lighting. Some days the light came on, some days it didn't.

In my experience, Seachem's root tabs work very well to keep a sword nice and green. Jobes plant spikes tend to promote rapid growth. CO2 is not going to be your answer in this case, however, I would strongly suggest trying to improve your lighting. The closer you can get to 2 wpg the better. You don't need anything fancy like VHO's or T5's, but some more T12's would work fine. If this is the 6' long 125g tank, you might find it much easier all the way around if you could invest in power compacts. That would be a lot of T12's under the hood!


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Drax,
I use Seachem root tablets also. They are a bit pricey but you only add every few months.

I also strongly suggest you to add more lighting as well. You could do it very cheaply by overdriving your bulbs since you have electronic ballast already. You may only need to buy one more ballast and you're all set. Read this : http://www.plantedtank.net/odno.html 
This is what I do for some of my tanks.


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## ~SP~ (May 30, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> ...the roots always look fine. Not black or stunted, if that's what your getting at.


I ask you because the symptoms are definitely of nutrient, mostly nitrogen, deficiency. It could be developed as a reason of N deficiency in the substrate (the capability of echinodoruses to absorb N from water is almost negligible) or unability of a plant to get it. The question was aimed to exclude the second reason, so it remains the first.


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## newmang (Sep 22, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Drax7:
> My 125-gallon tank has developed a nutrient problem that strangely only seems to affect Echinodorus. My E. bleheri, E. parviflorus, and E. tenellus all have a problem where the older leaves develop chlorosis and then start to decay, finally leaving only a flimsy transparent gray skeleton of a leaf.


How long has the tank been set up for? My experience is that a soil tank can suffer from minor nutrient deficiencies in the first few months.

In my case, I did nothing, and it went away.

Maybe it takes time for the right kind of baceteria to build up in the soil and start reducing nutrients to their plant-available forms?


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## Drax7 (Feb 19, 2004)

Thanks for all the responses!

Avalon, I would expect a Ca issue (even if caused by excessive K) would show up in the new leaves, not the old ones, since Ca isn't a mobile nutrient. So I'm still more inclined to think it's a N problem.

newmang, the substrate is about 14 months old. It just developed this problem in the past few months, so based on the other replies I'm inclined to think that I actually had a fair amount of N in the topsoil, and it's been used up over time.

I'm inclined to try root supplementation. I'm not eager to increase my lighting. All of my other plants are growing fine under 100W, and the Echinodorus spp. were doing fine until this nutrient problem developed.

So for now I'll find some N-rich food for the roots and see how things go.

Thanks again to all.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dear Jim,

I'd be careful here. If you have 40 ppm nitrates, then your Amazon Swords are definitely getting enough N. 2 ppm nitrogen should be plenty! 40 ppm is overkill.

As to CO2, the stem plants would suffer long before the Echinodorus species. E. bleheri (in particular) seems to love hardwater, so I assume that it can use bicarbonates.

E. bleheri, unlike the stem plants and Cryptocoryne, likes a certain amount of water hardness. If it is not doing well, then I would suspect two culprits:

Not enough calcium or magnesium (the GH doesn't distinguish between calcium and magnesium). Solution: add a source for both of these nutrients.

Allelopathic chemicals secreted by the other plant species. Solution: accept the fact that some plant species will not do well in a natural tank. Enjoy your Crypts and stem plants in this tank!

Every one of my 3 tanks is dominated by a few tank species. The 55 gal with tanks in pots has the biggest species diversity, because root allelopathy is negated. When you don't change water every week and don't have substrate circulation to remove inhibitory chemicals, you can expect some plant species to dominate your tank.


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## ~SP~ (May 30, 2004)

Diana, you're very right forewarning Jim from being careless with nitrates, but with all my respect to your experience I'd disagree with some of your other conclusions.
First of all, among listed possible reasons only Mg deficiency would affect an older leaves, all the others, including allelopatic ones, would damage the most sensitive young tissues.
Secondly, it almost doesn't matter for Echinodorus species (may be E. tenellus can sometimes be an exception) how much NO3 is dissolved in water column.
Thirdly, Mg deficiency will inevitably lead to a chlorosis, but scarcely to the decay.
In this situation the most warrantable actions in my opinion would be:
1. to try to check once again the roots of biggest and most injured specimens;
2. to add some N as a root-fertilizer (clay balls with added before drying KNO3 would be rather safe);
3. to make a series of water changes, one prior and several after to this fertilization in order to lower nitrogen in a water till 3-5 ppm.
4. to surveille and wait.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by ~SP~:
> Diana, you're very right forewarning Jim from being careless with nitrates, but with all my respect to your experience I'd disagree with some of your other conclusions.
> ...


SP is right; its probably not a magnesium deficiency. Insufficient water calcium will cause the leaves to dissolve (and in extreme cases kill the plant). I write about calcium's importance to plants (my book, page 114), especially plants like E. blerhi, that like hardwater. You could be getting high water hardness readings due to magnesium alone thereby masking a severe calcium deficiency. Ordinarily, natural hardwater contains both calcium and magnesium, but your water source could be overloaded with magnesium and underloaded with calcium.

I'd disagree with SP about the nitrates. All aquatic plants can take up nitrogen from the water, whether as ammonia or as nitrates. They don't need to get it from the substrate. Your tank has more than enough nitrogen for plants; a 40 ppm nitrate level indicates that your system is somewhat overloaded already with nitrogen. Chances are good that the plants have taken up the excess nitrogen as ammonia leaving behind the less desireable nitrates. I wouldn't contribute to the excess nitrogen in your tank with fertilizers.

If it were my tank, I would:

1. add a source of calcium (if you can get a liquid form, that would give you faster results)

2. change the water (your water source may have some calcium and the water change will help bring fresh calcium to the Echinodorus (water change may also help if there's some kind of negative allelopathy going on)

3. as SP recommended, "Wait and see".


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## ~SP~ (May 30, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> ...I write about calcium's importance to plants (my book, page 114)...


But, Diana, once again, calcium deficiency first of all affect new leaves - curling, twisting and whitening them, calcium isn't a "mobile" element to leave rhe old leaves thus damaging them, and just the opposite for nitrates.


> quote:
> 
> I'd disagree with SP about the nitrates. All aquatic plants can take up nitrogen from the water... They don't need to get it from the substrate...


There is simply no evidence for such a generalization.
In fact yes, almost all water plants can take nitrates/nitrites/ammonia both from water or from substrate, but at very different ratios due to peculiarities of absorbing and transporting systems, and this is the case, where "size (rate of absorbtion) really does matter". Otherwise, how can you explain the fact, that only echinodoruses, which are well known as "heavy root-feeders", are among damaged plants, but not Crypts, or fern, or stem plants?


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

I would still consider the addition of KNO3 the issue with the sword plants, in particular, the excess K from the KNO3. Read through the following post.

The sword plant was the only affected plant in my tank; all of the leaves, young and old were affected. Steve Hampton was correct--I stopped dosing the K, and reduced the amount of KNO3. My oriental sword leaves are now pink/green again.

I still say that the leaf decay is due to lack of lighting. I've kept swords for a long, long time and the only time I see leaf decay (nutrients aside) is if they are too old, or they do not have enough light. Sword plants are relatively high light plants if you want to grow them optimally, but they do not have to have so much light to sustain themselves.


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## ~SP~ (May 30, 2004)

K+ is antagonist of Ca++, i.e. excess of potassium can cause a hypo-consumption of calcium by the plants, but the symptoms are definitely not of a Ca deficiency (just look the appropriate pictures in www or literature).


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Anyone have an idea at what level of K does it become a problem and prevent plants from taking up Ca?

I still see recommendations for 20mg/l of K. Is this too high?


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## ~SP~ (May 30, 2004)

Antagonism of potassium and calcium was many times reported for terrestrial plants, and you know, they don't use the same concentration units as for water ones (ppm). Anyway, the basic mechanisms of absorbtion and ion transport are the same for this two eco-groups.
Adding K+ around the same levels (15-20 ppm) I've never seen the symptoms of Ca-deficiency, think this is normal.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i believe over 20 ppm will give problems.


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## Drax7 (Feb 19, 2004)

I guess leaf vs. root uptake of N in Echinodorus is a somewhat controversial topic.







For what it's worth, I'll provide an update on my tank.

On Sunday, I took some Jobe's Spikes for Ferns and Palms (16-2-6) and broke them into pieces, inserting the pieces into the soil around each plant. I used one spike apiece the E. bleheri and each E. parviflorus, and one spike spread around the roughly 1.5 square feet of E. tenellus.

After only five days, the E. tenellus has had a unmistakable response to the root fertilization. There has been a dramatic growth spurt, with a large number of new leaves. I'm frankly surprised that there would be such a visible reaction in such a short time.

The E. bleheri and E. parviflorus haven't had as dramatic a result, but haven't developed any new "skeletal" leaves. Before adding the spikes, I would have to remove them weekly. So I have to think it helped. Given that I spread the broken spikes a distance from the base of those plants (unlike for the E. tenellus, where I placed them throughout the patch), it may be that the roots haven't grown to fully take advantage yet.

As far as I can tell from reading the package, these spikes contain no micronutrients. Therefore it does seem to me that N was the problem, and the plants were unable to absorb enough N through their leaves despite having 40 ppm NO3 in the water column.

I have to wonder if in some substrates enough N permeates from the water column to the roots, leading to the impression that Echinodorus can absorb N from the water. Or perhaps there's something else in my water, whether a mineral or an allelopathic compound, that inhibits leaf uptake of N but not root uptake.

Thanks again for all of the help.


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