# Confused about finer points of H2O chemistry with plants...



## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

For the last two years I have literally thrown myself into this hobby, trying to absorb and learn as much as I can. I am fascinated. And I just started feeling that I don't know squat. Which is usually a good indicator that I am actually learning! 

What I am getting stuck on are some basics of my tap water's chemistry, and how I may or may not be properly preparing it, testing or fertilizing/dosing for healthy growth. I need to help to learn these with respect to the water on hand!

First of all, I need to stress that I cannot get into a situation with very complicated chemistry, dosing or CO2. I need to keep it straight-forward, simple and most importantly low-cost + quick & easy. I realize that CO2 and complicated dosing schemes work and are popular, but it is not workable for me at the moment. Plus I do like Diana Walstad's approach to aquatic gardening. I end up with a bit of a mix, or morph, between mid-tech and low-tech. I have used Eco-Complete, potting soil, Fluorite and Onyx Sand with varying degrees of success (the soil has been the most successful).

(I have noted that certain substrates provide certain water parameters by themselves. Eco-Complete seems to up the TDS readings (do not recall what the GH or Alkalinity were off hand), and up the pH to 7.4-7.8. So I am thinking that Eco-Complete is adding some kind of buffering in the form of Alkalinity.)

Secondly, most of my tanks are small. Due to restrictions on my apartment's lease I cannot have any large tanks. Mine are typically 2.5-20g. Some are using air pumps and sponges or box filters. Some are using hang-on filters such as the AquaClear or Red Sea Nano. A couple nano's have no filtration at all.

Thirdly, at the moment I am *not* so much into aquascaping as I am achieving healthy, thriving plants and fish. I am perfectly happy for now just potting them and placing them into a bare-bottom tank while I get the hang of growing. Once I get that, I fully intend to try my hand at an aquascape, perhaps even trying a high-tech setup.

I have an electronic pH meter, and an electronic TDS meter.

I have the following chemicals on hand: Seachem Flourish, Seachem Flourish Excel, Seachem Equilibrium, Seachem Acid Buffer, Seachem Alkaline Buffer, and Plantabbs. Currently I am NOT using any of these. I stopped when I kept getting wicked algae problems, or my pH would fluctuate. I acquired these since starting without giving much initial thought as to the "why". The packaging sounded good, basically. I quickly realized I really had little idea of what I was doing. But more importantly: WHAT WAS I TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH?

My city's water is virtually empty. It comes from that tap at pH 7.0 (tested with my meter) and barely registering even one degree of GH or Alkalinity.

*Now, onto my questions...*


 _What kind of chemicals or additives should I be adding that are *basic* to my plants and/or fish? Can these be gotten cheaply and easily, or am I more or less looking at sticking with a commercial mix?_

 _Can I use any company's pH 7 calibration fluid to calibrate my digital pH meter? Or must I use one specifically for mine? (To me, logically, if it's pH 7, it's ph 7 and I should be able to use anyones, however I am not definitely sure.)_

 _I have enjoyed the results of using the "Walstad Method" of using potting soil, which is cheap and seems to work well. Would using this tend to provide a good base of nutrients in general? (My assumption and gut says this is so, but again, I'm no expert... yet!)_

 _Aside from a GH/Alkalinity test kit, and my digital TDS and pH meters, what test kits should I keep on hand especially while trying to get a handle on the important water parameters for healthy plants and fish?_

I have been RTFM'ing -- by reading a LOT, both book, articles, magazines and on the web. But now I have a head full of information swimming around (no pun intended) and am having trouble distilling it down to practical applications.

I would appreciate any help.

I plan on writing up my "practicals" into some online articles, or collecting the useful information together into a more cohesive and simple source. By writing it I know that will help me learn it.

Thanks!


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Rusticitas, while I am not a 'low tech/Walstead' person, let me try to address some of your questions...



> What kind of chemicals or additives should I be adding that are basic to my plants and/or fish?


 Plants need macro and micro elements. The macro elements are carbon (C), potassium (K), nitrate (NO3), phosphate (PO4), calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg). Some of these, usually Ca and Mg, may be present in tap water already and you might not need to add them. In your case, however, seeing how your gh and kh appear to be virtually non-existant (you have very soft water), that is not the case. In a low tech, low light tank, the fish via their waste and feedings will contribute a large chunk of the nitrate and phophate. Your Excel will provide a carbon source. It seems to me you will definitely need to add K, Ca and Mg. Ca and Mg will be provided via Equilibrium.



> Can I use any company's pH 7 calibration fluid to calibrate my digital pH meter? Or must I use one specifically for mine? (To me, logically, if it's pH 7, it's ph 7 and I should be able to use anyones, however I am not definitely sure.)


 The manufacturer of the buffer should not matter. pH 7 is pH 7 whether it's made by me or by anyone else, if it's made properly.



> I have noted that certain substrates provide certain water parameters by themselves. Eco-Complete seems to up the TDS readings (do not recall what the GH or Alkalinity were off hand), and up the pH to 7.4-7.8. So I am thinking that Eco-Complete is adding some kind of buffering in the form of Alkalinity


 Eco will increase the kh and gh of your water, at least temporarily. Over time the effect will diminish/disappear.



> Aside from a GH/Alkalinity test kit, and my digital TDS and pH meters, what test kits should I keep on hand especially while trying to get a handle on the important water parameters for healthy plants and fish?


I would consider getting a NO3 and PO4 test kit. Just make sure that when you use them you check them against known concentrations to ascertain their accuracy.

Since you say you have done lots of research already, this may be redundant, but in case you haven't seen it, you might check out this site for useful beginner info.

HTH.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

BTW, in another couple of weeks, Diana Walstead will have a forum here (coming over from AB), and you will be able to get some definitive answers from the low tech guru herself.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Bert H said:


> BTW, in another couple of weeks, Diana Walstead will have a forum here (coming over from AB), and you will be able to get some definitive answers from the low tech guru herself.


Excellent! I had (too infrequently) used the AB forum. I was wondering where she was moving too. Good news!


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Thank you! Quite literally I was feeling like I was starting to get lost in the mass of information. This is very helpful. I think I will start off getting those additional test kits, and also "audit" my setups to get an idea of what each tanks current parameters are, including light, temperature, etc. I can't really express how fascinated I how all of this works. Always played with computers, now I've been bitten by a nature bug of sorts.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Hi, 

I would suggest two different methiods for you to compare to.
Your tanks are small, that makes them easier and cheaper to work with/on.

Given your goals, I would suggest several options.

The non carbon enrichement method.
Using Excel.

Then you can sort of enjoy CO2 type tanks without dealing with any of the chemistry.

CO2 will be there when you are ready and when your taste and skill levels grows and perhaps if you can rationize the use.

Personally I think the arguements for the non CO2 tanks are extremely strong.
But many are so elitist about it and cannot grow both methods well, most fervant plant folks are CO2 on the web and forums. They are well meaning, but often bull dog the newbie into CO2 enrichment when often times that was not what their goal was.

I am familiar with the trade offs from various methods as this is of great interest to me.

There are several ways top go about non CO2 methods(note, I did not say non Carbon enrichement methods, Excel is not CO2!!)

Substrates:

Sand
ADA Aqua soil
Onyx sand
Flourite
Peat/leonardite
Kitty litter
Soil that's been soaked for 2-3 weeks in shallow moist tray, or boiled for 10 minutes.

These are the main things I would consider for the tanks.

If you use onyx or Flourite, I'd suggest may be a little soil and mostly peat(1/2-1" layer with 3-4" cap of the Onyx etc on top)
Onyx is better.

ADA and a little peat, this will work very well. 

Sand(2-4") and 1" layer of soil
1" Kitty litter, a little soil/peat, then sand(2-4")

I've had the best long term success with the onyx sand and the best initial success(2-3 month) with soil and ADA substrates.

They all work to varying degrees and the differences in growth are subtle in most cases and few folks measure the nutrient levels that compare their successes. There is also an issue of measuring the nutrient levels in hydrosoils. No hobbyists have the ability to do this realitistcally.

You should and do not plan on doing water changes.
This will encourage algae.
Plants will adapt to STABLE CO2 levels, either high or low.
Non CO2 tanks go from maybe 3-5ppm to near 0 daily.
CO2 tanks go from 20-40ppm.

If you do a weekly water change with tap water, then you add lots of CO2 rich water and suddenly the CO2 goes from 0-3ppm to 20ppm and then rapidly back down again.

That's a good way to induce algae weekly.


So you just to the tank off for evaporation and maybe after a big cleaning etc, once every few months, you do a large water change(once in a awhile is fine).

You can add ferts and will be more successful with a wider variety of plants.
GH booster/SeaChem Equilibrium added at about 1/8" teaspoon0per 10 gal once every week or so will help. Adding KNO3 at about 1/8" tsp once every 1-2 weeks and adding a smidge(1/2 a rice grain) of KH2PO4 will help. Fish waste will provide the rest since the growth rates are slowed down.

Now you can add SeaChem Excel also, this will mean you will now add about 2x the ferts and see about 2-3X the growth rates.

This is easy to add and will give you a similar but slower growth tank to CO2 enriched system without dealing with CO2.

CO2 itself is a highly effective tool, simply because you are unfamiliar with it and simply because you can grow plants without adding should not deter you from trying it out. DIY CO2 is cheap and easy to try. You can always go back later also. It's not something I argue for per se, it's somethign i suggest you trya ndsee for yourself if the benefits warrant it's use even if only limited to one tank are worth while for you.

Then you'll know. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jubs (Mar 24, 2006)

Looks like you got some great advise up there from Tom and Bert! I just interested in water chemistry you have there in PA. Where I lived in PA the tap was "liquid rock" ( Lancaster,PA ) 7.8- 8 pH 23-30 gH 11-14kH it was horrible for trying to meet South American fish requirements and I was using DI water for awhile then just finally gave up and even my wild caught fish did fine in the higher pH and hardness even though I never got them breeding in it again once I stopped using the DI water. 

I just setup a tank a couple weeks ago and I have been using CO2 and Greg Watson ferts for about a week and I have seen great improvements in the past week with a using the ferts and adding them with the EI method. I wish you luck and trust me I was feeling the same way about all the info out there but I finally got a grip on it when I started breaking issues down one by one instead of trying to figure it all out at once. I did research on one topic at a time till I got everything straightened out. 

I can't remember how far you are from the Lancaster area but if you get a chance I would swing down there and check out That Fish Place if you haven't already they have Seachem products for cheap and usually a good variety of plants especially low light plants like anubias that most LFS's don't have in stock or charge an arm and a leg to buy. Not sure what kind of fish you are into but if you are into cichlids at all talk to Jose in the fish room he is a cichlid genius and a great guy!


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Jubs,

I've been slowly digesting all of this great information since it was posted. At my first opportunity I will reply with the questions I have come up with thus far, but they have been a great help in breaking the issues down. The suggestion of checking out the Beginner Basics at aquatic-plants.org was a nice review of the "basics".

I live in Bethlehem, PA which is about 75 E-NE of Lancaster. Our water comes from somewhere in the Poconos. It really is practically like RO water as near as I can work the chemistry out.

I discovered That Pet Place during a trip to check out a Keystone Killie down there a couple of summers ago. I left the store much poorer in funds and with my car stuffed with far more stuff than I really needed, but had no problem justifying to myself. 

I haven't tried cichlids yet. Love looking at them, but haven't been bitten by the cichlid bug... yet.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Plantbrain and Bert H,

I am digesting all of this information. It is *greatly* helpful! I am compiling a list of followup questions. I just wanted to give you some immediate feedback, and my appreciation.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

You're welcome! There's lot of knowledgeable folks around here. :thumbsup:


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I have purchased Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen, Iron, Potassium, Phosphorous, "Flourish Trace" and just plain "Flourish". These will complement my "Equilibrium" and "Flourish Excel". (I also have but do not often use "Acid Buffer" and "Alkaline Buffer" I need to experiment with them first). I decided to stick with the Seachem products because they seem consistent, reliable and I am already familiar with them. And what the heck, it saves time from having to comparison shop all the possibilities. I also figure it does not make _that_ big of a difference on the leading end of learning all of this!

As suggested I have been adding a little bit of the Equilibrium every week, keeping an eye on the TDS meter to see if that goes up or down. With the _very_ minor water changes (1-5% max) I have found that the additional Equilibrium seems to keep the TDS around the same range 650-700. (Offhand, I forget if that is ppm or microsiemens on my meter ).

I started at first just adding the Flourish Excel as directed on the packaging. Got green algae blooms on the glass and plant leaves. Keep in mind this was only from the first three doses during the first week.

When the Flourish Phosphorous arrived (before all the rest), I started dosing that as directed in the "Beginner" section of its instructions. The algae seems to have settled down a bit. I can see new growth on most of the plants, but it is early.

By the way, the tank has very thin layer of aggregate gravel on the bottom. All plants are in terra cotta pots that use potting soil covered with about 1/2+" of the same aggregate gravel on top. I did it this way for learning plant growth, the aesthetics will come later! Also I will be moving to a new apartment later this month, and having the plants in pots should make that much simpler I would think.

I have not yet started with the rest of the elements (N, K, Fe or "Trace"). I purchased some test kits for Iron, Silicates and Phosphates. Some may be overkill, but I wanted to know the current water parameters beyond simply pH, GH and Alkalinity.

By the way, it says with the Flourish Excel _do not_ overdose. What happens if one does? What will happen? And how far overdosed would be bad?


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I read something about how activated carbon in a filtration system can remove things one might not want removed. (I think I was looking over some product material on Kent's web site). If I am using some activated carbon in the hang on filters (AquaClear's generally, in my case), is it removing anything I don't want it to remove, such as elements from Equilibrium, or any of the Flourish line of supplements (C, N, K, Fe, etc)?

If this is the case do people generally use the activated carbon for limited or specific purposes? I had just been plunking it into the filter as a matter of course, without much thought

And while I am assuming there are no toxic, or side effects to using these (Seachem) supplements, is there anything I should know about with how they might affect fish health? Would any kind of fish be sensitive? Or do they metabolically use the same, or most of the same, elements themselves?

(So much to learn!)


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I think you've been given some great advice from Bert and Tom. Most people don't use carbon in planted tanks. It does a pretty good job of removing many chemicals from the water. Some of those the plants would like to have used as nutrients.

When it comes to fertilizers from Seachem or anyone else, you are basically supplying the plants with macros & micros. Macros include nitrogen (usually nitrate - NO3), phosphorus (usually phosphate - PO4), and potassium (often comes along with NO3 if the source was KNO3 or can be supplied by K2SO4). Equilibrium also contains a fair bit of potassium. Carbon, light, and water could also be considered macro nutrients.

Micro nutrients include iron, boron, & a host of other elemental nutrients in small quantities. Any good trace mix should supply these quite well. Calcium and Magnesium fall somewhere between macro & micro nutrients. These occur naturally in tap-water and are the elements responsible for water's general hardness (GH). People with water with a GH of >3 or 4 will usually not need to worry much about this. My tapwater is similar to yours and I use Equilibrium to get the GH up to about 5 degrees.

If you keep the nutrients in recommended ranges the fish should have no ill effects at all. Very high nitrate levels can easily kill fish, but Seachem's recommended doses or the doses from Tom's advice above should keep you perfectly safe.

If your plants are lacking any single nutrient, growth stops, and algae gets the upper hand. The trick is supply at least some of everything the plants need. After making changes you'll need to wait a couple of weeks to understand what effect it had. Carbon is usually the limiting factor for non CO2 enriched setups. Excel helps with this and it may have some algicidal properties in its own right. People often attribute green-spot algae with phosphate deficiency. Some people deliberately overdose excel (double or triple the maintainance dose) to attack algae, but this can affect some fish and many invertebrates in a negative way.

Regarding test kits - if you are going to make any decisions based on the results of your tests make sure you calibrate/compare them against a known concentration to verify their accuracy. You'd be surprised at how many dumb things people do after getting poor data from their kits. I don't think you'll find the silica or iron kits to be that helpful. You may want to keep an eye on nitrates too, but that's up to you.

If you are serious about planted tanks and see yourself doing this for any length of time, I'd seriously recommend getting bulk dry chemicals for macros. Liquid formulations get expensive over time. $20 worth of dry ferts will supply you for a few years. I'd recommend using the doses given by Tom above.

If you are having success with soil, then no worries. Some people get big algae issues with this. There is enormous variability in the soils that people try to use.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Rusticitas, I just want to add a couple of things to what guaiac so thoroughly covered. If you have Flourish and Flourish Iron, then Flourish Trace is really not necessary. If you can return it to the store, assuming you haven't used it, I would suggest you do. As far as your filter and carbon, you can remove the carbon and add another layer of floss to your filter. As guaiac said, most folks with planted tanks don't use carbon unless with have some issues with our tanks we're trying to tackle because it will remove trace elements which the plants will need.

Sounds like you've really done your homework. :thumbsup: When you get system set up, we'd love to see some pics.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

To add a further twist here, I have been trolling the *HUGE* database of messages here, and I have been reading about Tom Barr and his philosophy and recommendation for plant keeping. He talks about regular, large water changes.

Further up in this thread fewer changes, or none, were recommended. If both approaches ("mine" and Tom Barr's) add ferts and trace elements, why would one advocate few/no water changes and another weekly large water changes?

I see for Tom Barr it is about controlling buildup of ferts in the water column, the water change removes all that, and starts fresh, so to speak. Is there more to this? Honestly I'm not sure exactly _what_ aspect of this is causing confusion to me at the moment... other than perhaps having read too much today? ;-)

Or does this have something to do with using Flourish Excel as carbon source, rather than CO2 gas bubbled in?

I really hope there's a low(er) tech happy medium! 

**** UPDATED ****

Okay, after further careful reading -- note that I will almost always answer my own questions given a little time! -- I think I see that for low(er)-light, non-CO2 setups doing a large water change introduces a lot of CO2 which causes some enzyme(?) in the plants which does not exist in slow(er) growth times to activate. But it activates faster in algae than plants, hence algae blooms after water changes. In high(er)-light, CO2 setups the plants already have this going on, so a water change introducing more CO2 ... (insert something scientific and accurate here) ... As you can read, I'm still a little shaky on the details, but getting there.

And worse yet, now I'm absolutely fascinated by the idea and newfound images of planted _marine_ aquariums.

Will this madness never cease? ;-)

Time to give this tired brain a rest... off to bed!

-Jason


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