# Soil question for the Walstad tank



## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Soil consisting of 60% peat moss, 40% composed bark fines and iron sulfate (50g/m3) additive, would it be ok for a Walstad tank even if it has a pH of 4? Or would it be beneficial to have a soil exclusively consisting of either peat moss or compressed bark fines?

Cheers,


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I think you're erring way too far on the side of caution. Peat moss has 0% nutrients and I'm not sure what "bark fines" are. To me, it sounds like a fancy word for "saw dust". Aquatic plants don't uptake nutrients quite as fast as terrestrial plants - but they still need their share of nitrogen by-products derived from slowly decomposing organic matter. The trick is finding that happy medium where the plants are being fed without poisoning the livestock that makes its home in the same ecosystem. Commercially available potting soils that grow houseplants can be "mineralized" (rinsed and flushed) in order to step down their toxicity under water. My current favorite is Miracle-Gro's "Cactus, Palm and Citrus Potting Mix" , but I'm sure there are others.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Since that soil is 100% organic matter, I suggest that you soak and drain it several times. Then mix it half and half with a high CEC inorganic substrate. I don't know what is available in your location, but here we often use some type of fired clay product.

The soak and drain procedure will rinse most of the tannins out of the peat and pine bark that would otherwise cause tea-colored water. Tannins are not harmful per se, but may be aesthetically undesirable. Peat and pine bark are not high in nutrients, so that should not be a problem.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Michael said:


> Since that soil is 100% organic matter, I suggest that you soak and drain it several times. Then mix it half and half with a high CEC inorganic substrate. I don't know what is available in your location, but here we often use some type of fired clay product.
> 
> Thanks for the advise, you mean unfired red clay right? Will this french red clay do the magic?


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

Oslo said:


> Soil consisting of 60% peat moss, 40% composed bark fines and iron sulfate (50g/m3) additive, would it be ok for a Walstad tank even if it has a pH of 4? Or would it be beneficial to have a soil exclusively consisting of either peat moss or compressed bark fines?
> 
> Cheers,


Diana has experimented with a wide variety of potting soils so far with success but peat moss seems to be the universal “no”. I would look for a different soil. Use that bag for house plants.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

FernKing said:


> Diana has experimented with a wide variety of potting soils so far with success but peat moss seems to be the universal “no”. I would look for a different soil. Use that bag for house plants.


Strange, I believe Miracle-Gro Organic Choice potting mix consist of a blend of sphagnum peat moss, composted bark fines and natural fertilizer. That`s why I tried to find something similar here in Norway.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> Strange, I believe Miracle-Gro Organic Choice potting mix consist of a blend of sphagnum peat moss, composted bark fines and natural fertilizer. That`s why I tried to find something similar here in Norway.


I understand what you are trying to do. However, I just took a look at the ingredients of my store-bought Miracle-Gro and it doesn't go into much detail in terms of how much of either ingredient they use. I suspect in both cases they are being used as additives.


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## FernKing (4 mo ago)

Oslo said:


> Strange, I believe Miracle-Gro Organic Choice potting mix consist of a blend of sphagnum peat moss, composted bark fines and natural fertilizer. That`s why I tried to find something similar here in Norway.


You can buy pure peat moss and 60% peat is a very high amount. I would avoid it.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Soil high in organic matter will always go anaerobic. You can help by sifting out big bits of organics and adding in sand to reduce the organics.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I understand what you are trying to do. However, I just took a look at the ingredients of my store-bought Miracle-Gro and it doesn't go into much detail in terms of how much of either ingredient they use. I suspect in both cases they are being used as additives.


I'd like to amend what I stated upstream in answer to the thread starter's question. I did a quick google search of the question, "How much peat moss is in Miracle-Gro potting mix?" Potting mix is a term of art used within the industry to differentiate between it and garden soil. Potting mixes are intentionally filled with peat moss roughly in the proportions you propose to use (anywhere from 50-80%) so that the water does not drain so fast that the houseplant roots have no chance to absorb the moisture. One important consequence of using so much peat moss in commercial potting mixes is that they have to compensate for the lack of nutrients in peat by adding "slow-released" nutrients to the product. Apparently, this has worked out well for hobbyists over the years (Walstad, "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", page 137)

So, if you are going the DIY route, you will probably wind up having to add ferts. Another suggestion might be to add organic garden soil to what you have.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oslo said:


> Strange, I believe Miracle-Gro Organic Choice potting mix consist of a blend of sphagnum peat moss, composted bark fines and natural fertilizer. That`s why I tried to find something similar here in Norway.


I would not try to second-guess soils and ingredients. Just get an ordinary, inexpensive potting mix that people in Norway use to grow houseplants. I'm going to assume that any commercial potting soil will contain enough nutrients to get started. Later on, if you see nutrient deficiencies, you can consider fertilizers.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Peat moss have a carbon:nitrogen ratio of 58:1 and bark 100-130:1


autumn leaves30-80:1straw40-100:1wood chips or sawdust100-500:1bark100-130:1mixed paper150-200:1newspaper or corrugated cardboard560:1


MGOCPM, highly recommended by Walstad as soil in a dirted tank has peat moss and composed bark, same as the soil I found here in Norway (see picture below). If I understand correct, peat moss, composed bark and wood pellets consist primarily of cellulose and lignin, and are mostly carbon.

The question is how much nitrogen do you want in your soil?

Quoted from Aquarium Science – The Science of Aquariums : "Most (but not all) rooted “vascular” plants have been shown by testing to absorb phosphorus and iron from their roots much better than from their leaves. Most (but not all) vascular rooted plants also absorb potassium and nitrogen much better through their leaves".

So, if we would like to follow this "guideline" it would be vice to have a soil rich in carbon, iron, and phosphate, while the water layer should contain potassium and nitrogen, true or false?

An organic carbon-rich soil mixed with bonemeal or fish meal to add phosphate combined with iron sulfate would do it or?

In addition, I would like to mix the soil with aragonite sand to increase the KH/pH and make it more friendly for guppies. This sand also works like a natural filter to remove nitrogenous waste (see link: Nature's Ocean Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Sand 9kg - )

CO2 production dependent upon pH, see link: https://bg.copernicus.org/preprints/6/491/2009/bgd-6-491-2009.pdf

MGOCPM soil:

View attachment 75802










The Norwegian rhododendron soil with peat moss, composed bark, and iron, nothing more, nothing less. pH=4


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Your missing ingredient is the "slowly available nitrogen" that is included in packaged potting mixes. It is a euphemism for animal (in the above case, poultry) manure. Good luck experimenting with that.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Your missing ingredient is the "slowly available nitrogen" that is included in packaged potting mixes. It is a euphemism for animal (in the above case, poultry) manure. Good luck experimenting with that.


Thank you  I like a challenge!

Do you think aragonite sand mixed with lava stones would be sufficient as an ammonia removal system in a low tech tank without plants?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

No need to add bone meal and fish meal in the soil. It’s a recipe for disaster. The smell is awful too.
You can add a little bit of limestone or coral to add calcium and balance the pH in the soil.

plants are an important ingredient in a dirt tank. You need plants.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oslo said:


> #1 The question is how much nitrogen do you want in your soil?
> 
> Quoted from Aquarium Science – The Science of Aquariums : "Most (but not all) rooted “vascular” plants have been shown by testing to absorb phosphorus and iron from their roots much better than from their leaves. Most (but not all) vascular rooted plants also absorb potassium and nitrogen much better through their leaves".
> 
> ...


#1 Not too important. Commercial soils designed for houseplants should have enough N. Let fish waste (via fishfood) provide the water ammonia plants like.

#2 Yes. You definitely want soil to contain phosphates and micronutrients. Some carbon is okay to provide CO2 via decomposition, but too much and soil easily goes anaerobic. Ideally, I would use a forest or agricultural soil with 5-10% organic matter, but most people don't have access to good mineral soils. I would try to work with potting soils with their less than ideal 60-80% organic matter. Mix them 50:50 with STS or sand. Or mineralize them via Michael's procedure to decrease the decomposition. As my book shows (Fig VIII-5, p. 130), even acidic soils become neutral over time following submergence (e.g., one soil with a starting pH of 4.5 was ~6.2 pH within 3 weeks).

#3 I think a little bone meal mixed with the soil is good and I use it. It contains not only Ca/Mg and carbonates but P, which is really important to have in the soil. I would not add iron sulfate to a potting soil. Both iron and sulfates in potting soils can cause problems. A decent potting soil should contain enough Fe.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Great, thank you! Your comments helped a lot. There are a lot of different garden soils available, I will look for one without peat and bark then.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I would use small amounts of bone meal.

Potting soil containing peat is fine; it is processed and fertilized. You have to trust the manufacturer to sell a product--whatever manure, bird dropping, compost it contains-- that will grow plants. Otherwise, the company would not stay in business.

Pure 'peat moss' sold in bags labeled peat moss, I would never use. Too acidic, no iron, no P, etc.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

I have found some products with information about the soil. Could I use one of these?

*A. Pottering soil: *
Size: 0-35 mm
pH-value: 6,0
Organic content: >60%
Density 450 kg/m3
Total nitrogen (EN 13654-1) 2400 mg/l

*Composition:* light peat moss (H2-4), dark peat moss (H6-8), sand, limestone, fertilizers

*Additions pr. m3:*
Limestone: 3,5 kg
Dolomitt: 2 kg
Chicken manure: 5 kg
Fertilizer NPK 12-4-18: 1 kg

*Nutrition in g/m3:*
Nitrogen(N):310
Bor (B):0,6
Kobber (Cu):0,85
Fosfor (P):95
Jern (Fe):3
Kalium (K):280
Mangan (Mn):4,25
Kalsium (Ca):1950
Molybden (Mo): 0,03
Magnesium (Mg):260
Sink (Zn):2,9
Svovel (S):120

*B. Sowing soil*
Size: 0-15mm
Organic content: >40%
Density: 440 kg/m³
pH-value: pH 5,5 - 6,5
Totalnitrogen (EN 13654-1 1500 mg/l)

*Composition*: light peat moss (H2-H4), dark peat moss (H6-H8), sand, organic chicken manure, limestone, kalimagnesia.

*Aditions pr. m3:*
Magnesium and limestone: 5,5 kg
Chicken manure: 2 kg
Kalimagnesia/patenkail (potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate): 0,3 kg

*Nutrition, mg/l:*
Nitrogen(N)/(NO3-N+NH4-N): 80
Bor (B): 0,2
Kobber (Cu): 0,6
Fosfor (P): 25
Jern (Fe): 50
Kalium (K): 150
Mangan (Mn): 7
Kalsium (Ca): 225
Molybden (Mo): 0,1
Magnesium (Mg): 220
Sink (Zn): 2
Svovel (S): 60

*C. Plant soil*
Size 0-35 mm
pH-value: 6,0
Organic content >80%
Density: 390 kg/m3
Total nitrogen (EN 13654-1) 1500 mg/l

*Composition*: light peat moss (H2-4), dark peat moss (H6-8), sand, limestone, fertilizer

*Additions pr. m3:*
Limetone: 3 kg
Dolomit: 2 kg
Fertilizer NPK 11-5-18: 1 kg

*Nutrition: mg/l:*
Nitrogen(N)/(NO3-N+NH4-N): 110
Bor (B): 0,3
Kobber (Cu): 0,5
Fosfor (P): 45
Jern (Fe): 40
Kalium (K): 210
Mangan (Mn): 19
Kalsium (Ca): 200
Molybden (Mo): 0,2
Magnesium (Mg): 230
Sink (Zn): 3,5
Svovel (S): 150

*D. Top soil
Composition:* Natural sand, garden compost, and some kind of animal (unknown) manure
For upper lawn layer and sowing of grass, for flowers and plants.
Has huge amounts of "reserve" plant nutrition.
Deposit nutrition over a long time period.
High pH, no need for limestone products.
Recommend to add nitrogen fertilizer dependent upon plant grow wanted
Size: 0 - 10 mm
Density: 955 kg/m3
pH 7,5 - 8,5

*Nutrition:*
Nitrogen (NH 4 - N + NO 3 - N) 4,8 + 15,01 mg/L
Fosfor (P) 21,7 mg/100 g
Kalium (K) 100 mg/100 g
Magnesium (Mg) 39 mg/100 g
Kalsium (Ca) 378 mg/100 g

*E. "Tiger soil"
Composition:* Garden compost, Vermicompost, sand, chicken manure
For outdoor use, can contain worms, for plants in pots, to improve current soil, use nitrogen fertilizer after own choice.
Size: 0 - 10 mm
Density: 580 kg/m3
pH 7,6

*Nutrition in mg/L *
Nitrogen (N) 3000
Natrium (Na) 46
Ammonium (NH4) 0,23
Sulfat (SO4)10
Nitrat (NO3) 13
Bor (B) 1,2
Fosfor (P) 4,2
Kobber (Cu) 1,7
Kalium (K) 1200
Jern (Fe) 87
Kalsium (Ca) 5300
Mangan (Mn) 3,7
Magnesium (Mg) 160
Sink (Zn) 15

*F. Oslo soil
Composition: *Leafs, branches and grass
For plants, flowers, kitchen garden, light structure, high pH, deposit nutrition over a long time, recommend addition of nitrogen fertilizer after needs.
Size: 0 - 10 mm
pH 7,5 – 8,5
C/N: 17,5

*Nutrition:*
Ammonium (NH4) 8,3
Nitrat (NO3) 56
Bor (B) 1,5
Fosfor (P) 36
Kobber (Cu) 1,7
Kalium (K) 2100
Jern (Fe) 26,3
Kalsium (Ca) 2574
Mangan (Mn) 2,8
Magnesium (Mg) 141
Sink (Zn) 16
Svovel (S) 49


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The answer is probably "All of the Above", but I'm not gonna lie. I really like D. Top Soil. It's one of the choices that don't mention fertilizer as an ingredient and the sand makes me think it has already been "mineralized" in the traditional sense of the word. You will probably still have to do a fair amount of rinsing and flushing to step down the nitrogen by-products to a non-toxic level, but that is pretty much par for the course.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Found some more info about the top soil and it seems like some unknown animal manure have been added to this soil too. Interesting, when comparing ingredients between the soils we can see that the oslo soil (ammonium/nitrate PK = 21,8 mg/L - 217 mg/g - 754 mg/g) contain much more NPK nutrition than e.g. top soil (ammonium/nitrate PK = 19,81 mg/L - 21,7 mg/g - 100 mg/g). Numbers for the tiger soil would be = 13,23mg/L - 4,2 mg/g? - 1200 mg/g?. So, how would you choose between these? Very high amounts of Mg and Ca would maybe be a problem in the oslo soil? Top soil, oslo soil and tiger soil are all without peat and at least oslo and top soil have been produced by a hot composting process. Unfortunate, I do not know the amount of organic content in these soils. 

Dwalstad mentioned forest or agricultural soil with 5-10% organic matter. I have access to both in some way, but how do I choose between the different types of e.g. forest soil. Would I choose the soil found in spruce woods, beech forest, pine forest, birch forest, flower meadow etc? A problem with agricultural soil found outside is that you have no idea what the farmer have used to fertilize it.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Aren't you overthinking it a little?  I would take the most "simple" soil I could find - ordinary potting mix with no wetting additives and call it a day. You could also do an experiment with a couple of bigger jars (~5-10l) and use different soil in each to see how they behave.. 

I am a little puzzled by your question "_Do you think aragonite sand mixed with lava stones would be sufficient as an ammonia removal system in a low tech tank without plants?". _Are you planning a planted tank, or a tank without plants?


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

I am a little puzzled by your question "_Do you think aragonite sand mixed with lava stones would be sufficient as an ammonia removal system in a low tech tank without plants?". _Are you planning a planted tank, or a tank without plants?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe both, I am curious of nature and would be interested in finding the golden balance between fish load and a low tech ammonia system without using a filter. E.g. would it be possible to keep ammonia levels under control in a fish tank without plants and filter by using only an airstone/power head combined with suitable gravel/stones that contain bacteria for converting ammonia to nitrate (denitrification). If yes, where would that line go? 2 guppies, 5 guppies, 10 guppies, 50 guppies? This would be highly dependent upon feeding protocol and water changes.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mysiak said:


> Aren't you overthinking it a little?  I would take the most "simple" soil I could find - ordinary potting mix with no wetting additives and call it a day. You could also do an experiment with a couple of bigger jars (~5-10l) and use different soil in each to see how they behave..
> 
> Yes, I guess I have to do that, do an experiment on my own as I am unable to choose a soil as they all have additives. I also get confused by all the different opinions at this and other sites.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Oslo said:


> I am a little puzzled by your question "_Do you think aragonite sand mixed with lava stones would be sufficient as an ammonia removal system in a low tech tank without plants?". _Are you planning a planted tank, or a tank without plants?
> 
> Maybe both, I am curious of nature and would be interested in finding the golden balance between fish load and a low tech ammonia system without using a filter. E.g. would it be possible to keep ammonia levels under control in a fish tank without plants and filter by using only an airstone/power head combined with suitable gravel/stones that contain bacteria for converting ammonia to nitrate (denitrification). If yes, where would that line go? 2 guppies, 5 guppies, 10 guppies, 50 guppies? This would be highly dependent upon feeding protocol and water changes.


Ammonia or nitrite won't be a problem, cichlid tanks run without any plants just fine. Nitrates have to be removed by water changes. Soil substrate in such case doesn't make much sense. I would expect that bare tank without a filter will take longer to "cycle", so I would start slow with a few fish specimen (whose health might get impacted negatively by initially elevated ammonia/nitrites, so don't get too attached to them🙂).


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mysiak said:


> Ammonia or nitrite won't be a problem, cichlid tanks run without any plants just fine. Nitrates have to be removed by water changes. Soil substrate in such case doesn't make much sense. I would expect that bare tank without a filter will take longer to "cycle", so I would start slow with a few fish specimen (whose health might get impacted negatively by initially elevated ammonia/nitrites, so don't get too attached to them🙂).


So, soil substrates like aragonite and lava stones will not be able to remove much ammonia from fish waste and food? Even if I have good water circulation and oxygen rich water?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Oslo said:


> So, soil substrates like aragonite and lava stones will not be able to remove much ammonia from fish waste and food? Even if I have good water circulation and oxygen rich water?


Once you have big enough colony of beneficial bacteria, ammonia and nitrite surely gets converted to nitrate. Nitrate must be removed either by plants, water changes or special filter media (ion exchange resins).


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Any of the forest soils will be fine. They will not need any pretreatment except for removal of any large pieces of organic matter to prevent floating. Use one of those and set your mind at ease.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mysiak said:


> Ammonia or nitrite won't be a problem, cichlid tanks run without any plants just fine. Nitrates have to be removed by water changes. Soil substrate in such case doesn't make much sense. I would expect that bare tank without a filter will take longer to "cycle", so I would start slow with a few fish specimen (whose health might get impacted negatively by initially elevated ammonia/nitrites, so don't get too attached to them🙂).


Sure, if I go with aragonite gravel and lava stones I can combine it with floating plants and or moss to remove the nitrate. I also have concentrated NH3 to grow bacteria prior to adding fish and plants. I guess it will be important to have water circulation in lower levels of the tank with oxygen rich water to convert ammonia to nitrate (as this process is oxygen dependent) and maintain a healthy population of beneficial bacteria. An alternative to the walstad metod without nutrition rich soil/substrate, high CO2 production, and root plants.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Michael said:


> Any of the forest soils will be fine. They will not need any pretreatment except for removal of any large pieces of organic matter to prevent floating. Use one of those and set your mind at ease.


OK, how can I be sure that the soil from any kind of forest will contain a good nutritional mix for my water plants?

I have some soils that I would like to test out. One with pure peat moss (100% organic), one with some peat moss (>40 organic) and two without peat moss (44 and 45% organic). Want to check pH and ammonia levels etc. and grow potential (I have added some floating plants and a small root plant into each bottle - not shown in the picture). The two soils without peat moss are the "oslo" and the "tiger soil", containing different amount of ammonia etc. Would you choose the "oslo" soil which has the highest amounts of potassium, phosphate, and free ammonia/nitrate or "tiger" with less potassium, phosphate, and free ammonia/nitrate?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You can always add a little root tabs in the soil if you worry about nutrient levels. I’d pick one that doesn’t go anaerobic in your test.the sand cap is a bit high though. It should only be 2 cm.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> An alternative to the walstad metod without nutrition rich soil/substrate, high CO2 production, and root plants.


That's like saying walking is an alternative to flying a plane.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

So, I did set up two tanks on Friday. Any advise for a newbie? Do I need more light or a heater?
Water specs after thee days: pH= 7-7,5, KH = 6, GH = >10, NH4 = 0, NO2 = 0, NO3 = 0, temperature = room temp 20C
Tech specs: power head (5w) in the lower layers, small filter for water circulation in the upper layers, LED-60 RGB Light system, water tank = 30x30x35cm (31L)
The tank has about 1 inch (2,5cm) "rinsed" soil (seeding soil or tiger soil with one table spoon of bone meal) and 1 inch of fine (1-2mm) gravel on top. I filled the tank with many easy rapid growing plants. The tank is a "cocoon 3" (Cocoon 3 + LED 60 - Aquatic Nature), but I think the lighting is to weak? Not sure how much PAR, lumen, etc. I have in the tanks.

Should I buy this lamp? Chihiros WRGB II LED..








Chihiros WRGB II LED (Built-in Bluetooth) Mobile app Control Sunrise and Sunset Modes Built-in Multiple Modes Customized Modes High Intensity Helps Plants Show Color - chihiros aquatic studio


Perfect choice for high-tech aquariums, even with the most demanding plants. With the help of the built-in Bluetooth controller and the My Chihiros application you can change the color and brightness of the light to your liking so you can easily achieve the perfect look for your own taste. You...




www.chihirosaquaticstudio.com


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

To be honest (TBH), that's way more than I would ever pay for a light. But if it fits your budget, who am I to judge? In my experience, most of these LED lights are too intense for a tank where they will be on for over half a day (in order to incorporate a four-hour siesta), without much in the way of mechanical filtration and with enough fish poop to keep your plants growing. Too much intensity and they can become absolute algae factories.

So, sure. Personally, I'd buy something that either has a dimmer or is _dimmable_ and a timer and with as close to 100% white lights as possible and leave it at that.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> To be honest (TBH), that's way more than I would ever pay for a light. But if it fits your budget, who am I to judge? In my experience, most of these LED lights are too intense for a tank where they will be on for over half a day (in order to incorporate a four-hour siesta), without much in the way of mechanical filtration and with enough fish poop to keep your plants growing. Too much intensity and they can become absolute algae factories.
> 
> So, sure. Personally, I'd buy something that either has a dimmer or is _dimmable_ and a timer and with as close to 100% white lights as possible and leave it at that.


What about this one, its a cheaper LED (1400lm, 14W, 8000K, 400-700nm)






Chihiros AII Series - Akvarienerden


These A II series LED lights from Chihiros are specially designed for densly planted, openly operated freshwater aquariums. They are full-spectrum lamps covering a spectral range of approx. 400 - 700




www.akvarienerden.no


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> What about this one, its a cheaper LED (1400lm, 14W, 8000K, 400-700nm)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much more reasonable, IMO (in my opinion.)


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Much more reasonable, IMO (in my opinion.)


What about heaters, should I invest in some? I have only 20C in my flat. Whats the optimal temperature for a walstad tank?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Twenty degrees Celsius is a little low for most tropical fish. If that's the ambient temperature in your home for any stretch of time, you'll need a heater. Twenty-four degrees Celsius is a safe median temperature for most tropical fish and plants. Breeding temperatures can trend higher. You need to research each species.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Oslo said:


> Should I buy this lamp? Chihiros WRGB II LED..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have a look on C-series lamps - Chihiros C361 LED light with dimmer (18 W, 1850 lm) - chihiros aquatic studio - I have the slightly shorter version for a couple of years on my similar cube aquarium (half the water volume) and it is great. Works with cheap generic automatic sunrise/sunset dimmers, provides plenty of light (I am running it about 80% max) and is water resistant (unlike other Chihiros lights). Just be aware that it heats a lot (like many LED lights though), so don't use it in confined spaces with lack of air/heat exchange.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Oslo said:


> What about heaters, should I invest in some? I have only 20C in my flat. Whats the optimal temperature for a walstad tank?


You might get away without one. Water will get heated by water pumps, LED lights and if it doesn't sit in a draft, its temperature will be probably up to 4C above the ambient temperature. Just get a good thermometer (I prefer simple glass ones as they tend to show the same temperature across different manufacturers and models) and if it gets too chilly, buy a small heater (here again I have better experience with those using a simple analogue knob).


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mysiak said:


> Have a look on C-series lamps - Chihiros C361 LED light with dimmer (18 W, 1850 lm) - chihiros aquatic studio - I have the slightly shorter version for a couple of years on my similar cube aquarium (half the water volume) and it is great. Works with cheap generic automatic sunrise/sunset dimmers, provides plenty of light (I am running it about 80% max) and is water resistant (unlike other Chihiros lights). Just be aware that it heats a lot (like many LED lights though), so don't use it in confined spaces with lack of air/heat exchange.


Yes, maybe that lamp will fit my cubic tank better (30x30x35cm) and give light to all areas of the tank? So, these chihiros lamps gives a lot of heat? The one I have now does not, but it is only 3,6W.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Oslo said:


> Yes, maybe that lamp will fit my cubic tank better (30x30x35cm) and give light to all areas of the tank? So, these chihiros lamps gives a lot of heat? The one I have now does not, but it is only 3,6W.


I would say that majority (if not all) of higher powered LED lamps produce a lot of heat, but they should be constructed to handle this. Users just have to be aware not to cover them (so the heat doesn't accumulate) and that they need to be handled carefully when switched on.

I have similar low powered LED lamp too (came with the tank) and I used it for artemia hatching or mushrooms growing, for anything else it was just too weak (IMHO).


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oslo said:


> What about heaters, should I invest in some? I have only 20C in my flat. What is the optimal temperature for a walstad tank?


A few days at 20C might be okay, but 20C for long periods would probably slow plant growth.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> A few days at 20C might be okay, but 20C for long periods would probably slow plant growth.


Yes, after growing the plants for less than a week in two different tanks, both with 20C or less, have supported the fact that very slow plant growth is observed. Not a surprise, with new established tanks, but as you say, the low temperature is not helping the plant growth. New heaters are ordered.

So, I read in another post that the "kick off" in a walstad tank is after two weeks and may last up to six weeks? Is this correct? Between 2-6 weeks the soil will start to release a lot of nutrition in form of NH3, NO2, CO2, etc? As for now, the water layer does not seem to contain anything of importance for the plants.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Also, make sure your water has enough Ca, Mg, and K, and bicarbonates, the hardwater nutrients. GH should be above 5. KH above 4.
I hope that you have read my book, not just getting dis-jointed second- and third-hand tips off the Internet.
It helps to have an _understanding_ of the interactions between plants, submerged soils, water, etc.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Yes, I have a KH = 6 and GH = >10. what do you think about hang on filters in the start up phase, are they a no-go due to risk of too oxygenated water? Maybe internal filter will be more suitable to prevent too much oxygen in the water. I also have to buy some more plants with powerful root systems, as the ones I have now has less roots. These are the ones I have now (pretty much fast growing plants):

Nymphoides hydrophylla
Limnophila sessiliflora
Vallisneria spiralis
Pistia stratoides
Nymphaea lotus zenkeri
Hydrophylla polysperma
Vesicularia dubyana
Microsorum pteropus
Ceratopteris thalictroides
Hygrophila corymbosa
Cardamine lyrata


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> So, I read in another post that the "kick off" in a walstad tank is after two weeks and may last up to six weeks? Is this correct? Between 2-6 weeks the soil will start to release a lot of nutrition in form of NH3, NO2, CO2, etc?


No. It's more like 2-6 weeks for toxic gases in anaerobic areas to build up in the substrate and perhaps even before CO2 production from decaying organic matter in the soil begins to "kick in". The slow release of CO2 from organic matter in the soil is one of the main advantages the Walstad method affords low tech hobbyists like me to raising interesting plants without the standard CO2 dispensers, tanks and other devices.

The fact that you're not getting high readings of nitrogen by-products right now is probably a reflection of your mineralizing skills and very likely of the fact that your soil mix was very low in nutrients to begin with. Until you start getting some fish poop in there, you should probably start adding some flake fish food on a daily basis to supplement your plant's nutrients.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> No. It's more like 2-6 weeks for toxic gases in anaerobic areas to build up in the substrate and perhaps even before CO2 production from decaying organic matter in the soil begins to "kick in". The slow release of CO2 from organic matter in the soil is one of the main advantages the Walstad method affords low tech hobbyists like me to raising interesting plants without the standard CO2 dispensers, tanks and other devices.
> 
> The fact that you're not getting high readings of nitrogen by-products right now is probably a reflection of your mineralizing skills and very likely of the fact that your soil mix was very low in nutrients to begin with. Until you start getting some fish poop in there, you should probably start adding some flake fish food on a daily basis to supplement your plant's nutrients.


I do not have a method for reading CO2 levels in my tanks. Have you any experience with the JBL CO2 test? 









JBL CO2-pH Permanent Test


Permanent direct measurement of the perfect pH value and carbon dioxide content in the aquarium.




www.jbl.de





I will test my tanks regularly for nitrogen bi-products, and if I am not detecting any, maybe I should start adding fish food as you say. Unless, I could add a minor dose of concentrated NH3, to get the tank cycled.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> Unless, I could add a minor dose of concentrated NH3, to get the tank cycled.


Don't worry about cycling your tank. You want plants. You want plants that will consume ammonia. Plants and so-called, "beneficial bacteria" compete with each other for ammonia. This is one of many, many take-aways from Diana's book.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Did some new water tests yesterday evening.

NH4 = 0,4 mg/L
NO2 = 0,2 mg/L
NO3 = 1 mg/L
GB = 9
KH = 8
pH = 7,5


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> Did some new water tests yesterday evening.
> 
> NH4 = 0,4 mg/L
> NO2 = 0,2 mg/L
> ...


So, your tank has "cycled" in the sense that beneficial bacteria are doing their work. If you're lucky, the nitrification process can continue at this rate indefinitely with only a slow buildup of NO3. What's likely to happen, however, is that the nitrate level will increase as more ammonia is absorbed by more bacteria. Rapidly growing plants at the substrate level help rob the bacteria of ammonia, thus slowing down the creation of nitrates.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

NH4 = < 0,05
NO2 = > 1
NO3 = 40-80

Seems like the tanks are about to be cycled soon...... Just have to wait for nitrobacter, nitrospina and nitrococcus to convert nitrites into nitrates before adding any fish in the tank. Did run a test on the ability of the tank to convert ammonia into nitrites also (by adding concentrated NH3). NH4 levels were rapidly converted into NO2 by nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrosococcus or stored/converted and used by the plants. Either way, ammonia and ammonium levels does seem to be under control now. High nitrite levels are not harmful for aquarium plants (as written in ecology of the planted aquarium) so I do not have to worry about water change before NO2 levels decrease and NO3 levels explode.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Your tank has been cycled for a week now. Unfortunately, a nitrate level of 40-80 ppm is not good for fish. Let's take a look at what your tank looks like.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Your tank has been cycled for a week now. Unfortunately, a nitrate level of 40-80 ppm is not good for fish. Let's take a look at what your tank looks like.


Sure, I will take some photos later today after work.
Yes, I agree, too high nitrate level is not good for anything. I will do a water change to remove the high level of nitrate before I add fish. I read that nitrate levels between 5-20ppm is ok for plants and fish.

I will start to poke the bottom layer with a stick also to get rid of trapped air in the soil.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Tank no 1

1x Hydrophylla polysperma
2x Ceratopteris thalictroides
1x Nymphoides "Taiwan" hydrophylla
_2x Cryptocoryne wendtii_ "Green" 
2x Echinodorus?
1x _Hygrophila corymbosa?_

So, the H. polysperma and the N. hydrophylla seem to grow. The Echinodorus, C. wendtii, H. corymbosa are status quo and the C. thalictroides may decay over time, we will see. I have reduced the light a bit even if I have not observed any major outbreak of algea yet. I have a hang on filter, heater and a power head in the tank. About 1 inch (2,5 cm soil and 1-1,2 inch (2,5-3 cm) cap with gravel 1-2 mm. The original _Vallisneria_ spiralis and the Limnophila sessiliflora had to go as they "melted"/decayed. The hang on filter is used to speed up the cycling and ensure circulation in the upper water layer. Hopefully, I can remove it when the tank settles in.....


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Tank no 2

Have not done anything with this tank, except adding some floaters (pistia) since the startup with the aim of getting rid of ammonia/ammonium. L. sessiliflora and V. spiralis have not done so great in this tank either, but I have just let the tank be untouched. The L. sessiliflora gets some beating from the power head and many of the V. spiralis have melted (in the background of the tank). Hydrophylla polysperma seem to like the conditions also in this tank, not sure about the other ones yet. I have a Eiheim Mini Flat internal filter, power head, and heater in this tank for now.

Limnophila sessiliflora
Vallisneria spiralis
Pistia stratoides
Nymphaea lotus zenkeri
Hygrophila corymbosa 
Hydrophylla polysperma 
Cardamine lyrata
Microsorum pteropus


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

These are very attractive tanks. You can probably add fish at any time and only have to make partial water changes every few weeks. Frankly, I was surprised by how quickly the nitrates spiked in that tank where it hit between 40-80 ppm. Or were you describing both tanks? 

I think your emphasis on the traditional cycling process was perhaps a tad misguided, but it's fairly common for Walstad beginners to do so. I know I did in the beginning.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> These are very attractive tanks. You can probably add fish at any time and only have to make partial water changes every few weeks. Frankly, I was surprised by how quickly the nitrates spiked in that tank where it hit between 40-80 ppm. Or were you describing both tanks?
> 
> I think your emphasis on the traditional cycling process was perhaps a tad misguided, but it's fairly common for Walstad beginners to do so. I know I did in the beginning.


My water test results published above represents tank 1, tank 2 still have some ammonium present (at least it had ammonium two days ago). Both tanks have high nitrite levels, which is toxic for fish. I will add fish when I am sure the nitrite levels are close to zero. I am not sure frequent water changes will speed up the nitrite to nitrate conversion as I am dependent upon the build up of beneficial bacteria. Maybe it is "best" to just let nature take its time and do water tests a couple of times a week to monitor the nitrite levels and hope they decrease in the nearby future.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> Maybe it is "best" to just let nature take its time and do water tests a couple of times a week to monitor the nitrite levels and hope they decrease in the nearby future.


Of course, the irony here is that the name of this site is Aquatic Plant Central, and this forum is devoted to the idea of adding "soil for plants and plants for soil." The whole point of the Walstad method is to lessen the need for ammonia/ammonium conversion since plants will uptake ammonium directly without creating nitrites. It's still possible to accomplish this in the long run. But it would really mean paying a little less attention to bacteria and maybe adding a lot more plants than you presently have.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Enough pictures!  But beautiful plants. I think you have plenty and they look so healthy. Make sure that that the crown of that big Echinodorus is above the gravel; you've got the crown buried and it may rot. And I would spread out the _Hygrophila_ _difformis_. You've got all the stems all bunched together.
Not so sure that nitrification is reason for your nitrites. Soil fertilizers? Those high water nitrates could be diffusing into the substrate where MANY ordinary bacteria will convert them to nitrite via 'nitrate respiration' (my book, p. 65). Nitrate respiration in this situation would be a much more common bacterial process than nitrification. 
To get your nitrites down, I would do water change to get rid of the nitrates. I assume that those nitrates didn't come from your tapwater. Possibly the soil is the source. Should be a temporary problem, because nitrates don't attach well to soil particles, so eventually they will clear out of the soil and you can get your fish.
I would forget about adding ammonia to your tank. Add a little fishfood. Much safer.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Of course, the irony here is that the name of this site is Aquatic Plant Central, and this forum is devoted to the idea of adding "soil for plants and plants for soil." The whole point of the Walstad method is to lessen the need for ammonia/ammonium conversion since plants will uptake ammonium directly without creating nitrites. It's still possible to accomplish this in the long run. But it would really mean paying a little less attention to bacteria and maybe adding a lot more plants than you presently have.


Yes, with more duckweed and more patience I might be able to run both tanks without filter and still get the ammonia/ammonium and nitrite levels under control. So, I did cheat a bit by adding a filter, but I just wanted to speed up the process a bit. 

I did some more water tests yesterday.Now both tanks are like this:

NH4 = <0,05
NO2 = >1
NO3 = 80
pH = 7,5-8,0

I also did a 50% water change and poked the soil with a clean bbq stick. The interesting part was that tank1 (with tiger soil) had a lot of air pockets in the soil. Every time I poked I got air bubbles, in contrast, I got zero air bubbles when I did the same with tank 2 (sowing soil). Both tanks were set up two weeks ago.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Enough pictures!  But beautiful plants. I think you have plenty and they look so healthy. Make sure that that the crown of that big Echinodorus is above the gravel; you've got the crown buried and it may rot. And I would spread out the _Hygrophila_ _difformis_. You've got all the stems all bunched together.
> Not so sure that nitrification is reason for your nitrites. Soil fertilizers? Those high water nitrates could be diffusing into the substrate where MANY ordinary bacteria will convert them to nitrite via 'nitrate respiration' (my book, p. 65). Nitrate respiration in this situation would be a much more common bacterial process than nitrification.
> To get your nitrites down, I would do water change to get rid of the nitrates. I assume that those nitrates didn't come from your tapwater. Possibly the soil is the source. Should be a temporary problem, because nitrates don't attach well to soil particles, so eventually they will clear out of the soil and you can get your fish.
> I would forget about adding ammonia to your tank. Add a little fishfood. Much safer.


Yes, thanks for helpful suggestions! I did notice the _Echinodorus Argentinensis_ (grandiflorus) were too deep in the substrate (due to the fact that I added some more gravel to this tank after planting). I pulled it up yesterday, but, maybe I should pull it even further up so it will not rot. Yes, the _Hygrophila_ _difformis _does not look happy, particular at the bottom. I will spread it like you say, maybe that will help.

Yes, both these soils contain chicken manure in addition one spoon of bone meal that I added in the mix. I did a water test yesterday:

NH4 = <0,05
NO2 = >1
NO3 = 80
pH = between 7,5-8.0
KH = > 6
GH = > 6

So, it looks like ammonia/ammonium went away after adding the floaters in tank 2 (I read that using floaters is a great way to get rid of ammonia/ammonium (0,4-0,6 ppm)). The nitrite levels are another story. Nitrate respiration is an interesting thought, the chicken or the egg theory. These tanks are without fish and fish food. I have not been able to measure very high levels of ammonia/ammonium </= 5 ppm in these tanks. So, my questions is then, can nitrite levels of around 80 ppm arrive from ammonia/ammonium levels of typically 0.2-0.6 ppm (the highest level of ammonia ever measured in these tanks). If not, nitrate has to arise from something else (soil). The question is then, do they arise from nitrite in the soil and undergo nitrification to nitrate or do nitrate arise directly from the soil for later to be converted into nitrite by nitrate respiration? Both, tanks/soils show the same levels of nitrite/nitrate, tank 1 have a lot of air trapped in the soil while tank two has none so far. I did a water 50% water change yesterday, I guess I could do frequent water changes and poke in the soil until the conditions improves. Or, I could sit still in the boat and wait for the nitrification process to overcome the the nitrate respiration process.....


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

There was an interesting discussion of nitrate respiration in this thread started by @jatcar95 many months ago. It's the first time I'd heard of it. Soil that has been previously exposed to the air for long periods seem especially prone to this: 
21G Acrylic NPT | Aquatic Plant Forum (aquaticplantcentral.com)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oslo said:


> So, my questions is then, can nitrite levels of around 80 ppm arrive from ammonia/ammonium levels of typically 0.2-0.6 ppm (the highest level of ammonia ever measured in these tanks). If not, nitrate has to arise from something else (soil). The question is then, do they arise from nitrite in the soil and undergo nitrification to nitrate or do nitrate arise directly from the soil for later to be converted into nitrite by nitrate respiration?


Johnwesley0 has provided a good clue as to why your soil might contain high levels of nitrates, for nitrate of 80 ppm in the water are incredibly high. Doubtful they are due to nitrification. Nitrification is a slow process whereas nitrate respiration is a common and very fast process. 

In your situation, forget about nitrification. My guess is that your soil is releasing huge amounts of nitrates that are inducing nitrate respiration. Do water changes to remove the nitrates to get rid of the nitrites.

Nitrogen cycling is complicated. Requires patience, but we'll all get there eventually.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

To speed up removal of Nitrates, you can use ion exchange resin with strong affinity to Nitrates. I have used is successfully when I experienced Nitrate respiration in one of my tanks.

There are more sophisticated aquaristic products (Szat clear water is the most famous in Eastern Europe), but for your purpose almost any drinking water cleaning resin will work (as long as it has good affinity to NO3). They are regenerated by pure salt (dishwasher) and can be used for many years.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

So, found an old Norwegian article where they have investigated different animal manure and their nitrogen content.










Chicken manure (hønsegjødsel) seem to contain low amounts of NH4 compared to e.g. pig manure (grisemøkk). Horse manure (hestegjødsel) also contain little NH4, but have less fast available N compared to chicken manure. Small amounts of NH4, both on paper and by testing the water in my tanks further support that my nitrite levels arise from nitrate respiration (NO3-NO2) rather than nitrification (NH4-NO2-NO3). However, even if there is little NH4 in chicken manure compared to other manures it does not say how much in total. In the lower table I found some data claiming that chicken manure in water contain in average 0,40% NH4 and 0,020% NO3.










Furthermore, I do not know the composition of nitrogen in bone meal (the ammonium - nitrite - nitrate ratio) that I added to the soil. Maybe it is the bone meal that contributes to the peak in nitrate? Any comments on that? 

So, Diane are you related to Daniel Walstad who owned a farm here i Oslo? Since your last name is Walstad, I thought maybe you understand norwegian or sweedish?

Last evenings water tests after >50% water change on Friday.

Tank 1
NH4 = <0,05ppm
NO2 = 0,4-0,6
NO3 = 15
PH = 7,5
KH = 6
GH = 6

Tank 2
NH4 = <0,05
N02 = 0,8-1
N03 = 30
PH = 7,5
KH = 6
GH = 6

PS! looking at the measurements, there seem to be a connection between NO3 and NO2. From last measurements, we observed >1 NO2 = 80 NO3. This time we observe that 0.8-1 NO2 = 30 NO3 and 0,4-0,6 NO2 = 15 NO3. Importantly, all these nitrite/nitrate measurements are done with <0,05 NH4 in the water.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Seems like adding bone meal and manure are a hassle.
if you’re seeing NO3 => NO2 reaction, there might be anaerobic conditions in your substrate.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

These measurements are consistent with a 50% water change. The question is whether they are going to shoot back up again or are we simply dealing with conditions that were _status quo ante?_


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> These measurements are consistent with a 50% water change. The question is whether they are going to shoot back up again or are we simply dealing with conditions that were _status quo ante?_


Only time will show, will do another water test tomorrow to see where the nitrite/nitrate levels go. My water lettuce is growing like crazy at least.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Seems like adding bone meal and manure are a hassle.
> if you’re seeing NO3 => NO2 reaction, there might be anaerobic conditions in your substrate.


I am a newbie so I have nothing to compare it against. I guess other people who have used bone meal have to comment on that. Most commercial soils contain either NPK fertilizers or some kind of manure (at least here in Norway). It is not something I have added myself. I do not believe I am the first to measure high nitrite levels after using commercial soils in the tank. As mentioned before, one of the tanks have a lot of air bubbles in the soil the other one has none. I am not sure how to interpret that. Many Norwegians that play with aquariums use NH4Cl to cycle their tanks before buying fish. It usually takes around 3-4 weeks and after daily measurements they find that bacteria for the NH4 to NO2 conversion grow faster than bacteria for the NO2 to NO3 conversion. Anyway, it take some time for the process to occur. My tanks are in its third week now....


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Perhaps we should have asked this question earlier: What is it you are trying to accomplish by adding soil to your fish tanks?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Poke your substrate with a stick and smell if the bubbles smell like rotten eggs. If not, it’s CO2 bubbles.
Your plants look great though.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Perhaps we should have asked this question earlier: What is it you are trying to accomplish by adding soil to your fish tanks?


Did have several tanks when i was younger with only gravel. Wanted to try something different this time to see if I could enhance plant grow without artificial CO2 injection. I do have a third tank also, with just gravel and some commercial fertilizer called aquatic nature fertiplant (Aquatic Nature Fertiplant ABF | Seaflower). I am using this third tank to compare with the two others with garden (tiger and sowing) soil.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Poke your substrate with a stick and smell if the bubbles smell like rotten eggs. If not, it’s CO2 bubbles.
> Your plants look great though.


Good idea! I will do that today.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

So, did a new water test yesterday:

Tank 1
NH4 = <0,05ppm
NO2 = 0,1-0,2
NO3 = 5

Tank 2
NH4 = <0,05
N02 = 0,1-0,2
N03 = 15

NO2 and NO3 levels are decreasing even without water change. I guess NH4 and NO2 will be close to zero in a few days. Since, I am not adding any live stock before X-mas, should I then start to add fish food, aquarium holiday fish food, or NH3 to maintain a high population of beneficial bacteria or is that not necessary?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> I would forget about adding ammonia to your tank. Add a little fishfood. Much safer.





Oslo said:


> Since, I am not adding any live stock before X-mas, should I then start to add fish food, aquarium holiday fish food, or NH3 to maintain a high population of beneficial bacteria or is that not necessary?


You're kind of not listening. Beneficial bacteria have nothing to do with the growth of your plants. Judging from your snapshots, a few more weeks without fish should be fine.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> You're kind of not listening. Beneficial bacteria have nothing to do with the growth of your plants. Judging from your snapshots, a few more weeks without fish should be fine.


I know that beneficial bacteria has nothing to do with plant grow , but I think it is nice to have some beneficial bacteria when I add guppies into the tank


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> I think it is nice to have some beneficial bacteria when I add guppies into the tank


Why do you say that?


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Why do you say that?


So they do not die due to ammonium/nitrite toxicity? I guess a high fish load will increase ammonia/ammonium/nitrite levels in the tank dependent upon the amount of fish and how much you feed them. To then be sure your tank can handle that amount of ammonia/ammonium/nitrite it is ok to have a back up system (filter with beneficial bacteria) in case your plants and your tank can not handle the ammonia/ammonium/nitrite levels.

From one thing to another, I now have bubbles in the soil of both tanks. I did try to smell while I poke the bottom layer, could not smell sulfide/anything. What does that imply? What should the poking be good for, is it necessary? I have a Aquaclear 20 hang on filter on both tanks now.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> So they do not die due to ammonium/nitrite toxicity? I guess a high fish load will increase ammonia/ammonium/nitrite levels in the tank dependent upon the amount of fish and how much you feed them. To then be sure your tank can handle that amount of ammonia/ammonium/nitrite it is ok to have a back up system (filter with beneficial bacteria) in case your plants and your tank can not handle the ammonia/ammonium/nitrite levels.


First of all, it is difficult to imagine a higher critical mass of ammonia/ammonium/nitrite than you've already experienced from dumping a bag full of terrestrial soil into your tank and exposing it to water. The fact that all your parameters are headed in the right direction is a huge testament to your healthy plant growth. If you're really worried about bio-load, the solution is to continue what you've been doing which is adding more plants. Hoping that you have enough beneficial bacteria to absorb fish poop is like hoping you have enough ants at a picnic. Just eat the food. 

Second of all, as @dwalstad has posted several times, your unusually high nitrite levels were likely not the result of nitrification (beneficial bacteria) but were probably the result of _nitrate respiration, _a process that was set in motion while the soil was exposed to air. 

Third and lastly, be careful what you wish for. The less able your plants are to compete with the beneficial bacteria _already in your tank_ for food, the more you will periodically have to change the water as nitrification levels rise. Plant uptake of ammonia/ammonium results in plant protein. Bacteria just produce a different form of nitrogen. 



Oslo said:


> From one thing to another, I now have bubbles in the soil of both tanks. I did try to sm,ell while I poke the bottom layer, could not smell sulfide/anything. What does that imply? What should the poking be good for, is it necessary?


It's probably too early to expect toxic gases to form in your soil. I would consider poking around now rather than later as a preventative measure.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Hydrogen sulfide smell indicates anaerobic conditions in the soil. Poking introduces oxygen into the area which helps. Plants have a difficult time growing in anaerobic soil and hydrogen sulfide is toxic to fish in large enough quantify.
It sounds like you’re good.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> First of all, it is difficult to imagine a higher critical mass of ammonia/ammonium/nitrite than you've already experienced from dumping a bag full of terrestrial soil into your tank and exposing it to water. The fact that all your parameters are headed in the right direction is a huge testament to your healthy plant growth. If you're really worried about bio-load, the solution is to continue what you've been doing which is adding more plants. Hoping that you have enough beneficial bacteria to absorb fish poop is like hoping you have enough ants at a picnic. Just eat the food.
> 
> Second of all, as @dwalstad has posted several times, your unusually high nitrite levels were likely not the result of nitrification (beneficial bacteria) but were probably the result of _nitrate respiration, _a process that was set in motion while the soil was exposed to air.
> 
> ...


Ok, I will just stay calm then, do some poking now and then and let mother nature take over for some weeks before I add any livestock. I will naturally do some water tests to follow the situation, remove dead plant material, and maybe add some more plants.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

After being calm all weekend I would like to play with tank 3.....

So, what to do with the third tank?
I believe my H.polysperma and its friends are not great fans of the environment in tank 3 (see pictures). Their leafs are becoming very pale compared to their cousins in tank 1 and 2. Light exposure may be too strong or do they lack some vital nutrition, any comments on that? The bottom layer in the third tank consist of gravel and a thin layer of Aquatic Nature Fertiplant ABF at the bottom. ANF contains Laterit, Lignite, Baraclay and trace elements (no nitrates or phosphates), which should be released slowly according to the manufacturer ( Aquatic Nature Fertiplant ABF | Seaflower ). 


























I am now thinking of re-building tank 3 and add some real forest soil, too see how that soil compares to the two commercial soils (tiger and sowing soil) in tank 1 and 2. Will I get the same peak in nitrite/nitrate with this type of soil? If so, we can for sure blame it on the bone meal that I will put into the forest mix. If not, we may blame it on the manure fraction in the two commercial soils, which seem to result in a transient peak in nitrite/nitrate as detected. 


















A final question, have your tank ever smelled a faint of manure? Will this smell go away after some time or will it only become stronger.......?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> A final question, have your tank ever smelled a faint of manure? Will this smell go away after some time or will it only become stronger.......?


Does this involve an actual tank that you have or are you just bumping your thread?


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Does this involve an actual tank that you have or are you just bumping your thread?


I have three tanks, one with just gravel and some commercial fertilizer in the bottom layer (ANF ABF, see link above, tank 3) and two with dirt soil and gravel (walstad type of bottom layer). So, two cubic tanks (31L, 30x30x35), and one rectangular type of tank (37,5L) with measurements 25x50x30cm (WxLxH). The 37,5L tank (tank 3) show signs of poor plant growth in the form of pale leaf color on the plants (see pictures above). So, I thought maybe I should do a make over and make a dirt tank of that one too. The two cubic tanks were installed for about three weeks ago, while tank 3 is one week older.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> I have three tanks, one with just gravel and some commercial fertilizer in the bottom layer (ANF ABF, see link above, tank 3) and two with dirt soil and gravel (walstad type of bottom layer). So, two cubic tanks (31L, 30x30x35), and one rectangular type of tank (37,5L) with measurements 25x50x30cm (WxLxH). The 37,5L tank (tank 3) show signs of poor plant growth in the form of pale leaf color on the plants (see pictures above). So, I thought maybe I should do a make over and make a dirt tank of that one too. The two cubic tanks were installed for about three weeks ago, while tank 3 is one week older.


Well, in answer to your question, No. I would not use pure animal manure as a substrate.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Well, in answer to your question, No. I would not use pure animal manure as a substrate.


 I do not have any pure manure tanks at the moment  . However, some manure is usually often added to commercial garden soil if you read the label at the back . Since it smells of manure in tank 2, I was wondering if that smell usually gets stronger or weaker with time....but I guess no one have had that experience here. If it gets stronger I will tear down tank 2 also. So, what do you think of using pure soil from the forest then? I need to rinse it a bit first to sort out all the floating parts before I use it.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oslo said:


> A final question, have your tank ever smelled a faint of manure? Will this smell go away after some time or will it only become stronger.......?





johnwesley0 said:


> Does this involve an actual tank that you have or are you just bumping your thread?





Oslo said:


> Since it smells of manure in tank 2, I was wondering if that smell usually gets stronger or weaker with time.


That is what I was asking. I'm surprised that a very small amount of chicken manure would still smell after all the water changes you've performed. I have not had that problem with the houseplant mixes I've used.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oslo said:


> I do not have any pure manure tanks at the moment  . However, some manure is usually often added to commercial garden soil if you read the label at the back . Since it smells of manure in tank 2, I was wondering if that smell usually gets stronger or weaker with time....but I guess no one have had that experience here. If it gets stronger I will tear down tank 2 also.


Manure should be well-composted before it is sold to people as an ingredient in potting soil. Doesn't matter whether the manure is originally from chickens, cows, or what-not.
If the soil is growing plants, I wouldn't worry about the smell. Maybe it is a stray worm that's decomposing at the bottom? And whatever it is, the smell probably will decrease as it eventually decomposes. I certainly wouldn't tear down a tank because of it. Just increase aeration and do a water change. 
If it truly is manure, you should be able to confirm its presence by measuring ammonia.

You do know that nitrogen is a major plant nutrient? Your plants in Tank #3 may be nitrogen deficient, since the substrate has none and you haven't added fish/fishfood. Same goes for phosphate.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Manure should be well-composted before it is sold to people as an ingredient in potting soil. Doesn't matter whether the manure is originally from chickens, cows, or what-not.
> If the soil is growing plants, I wouldn't worry about the smell. Maybe it is a stray worm that's decomposing at the bottom? And whatever it is, the smell probably will decrease as it eventually decomposes. I certainly wouldn't tear down a tank because of it. Just increase aeration and do a water change.
> If it truly is manure, you should be able to confirm its presence by measuring ammonia.
> 
> You do know that nitrogen is a major plant nutrient? Your plants in Tank #3 may be nitrogen deficient, since the substrate has none and you haven't added fish/fishfood. Same goes for phosphate.


Thank you for constructive feedback. I have added both NH3 and KH2PO4 to the tank regularly in the water layer, but I think I will tear it down and make a dirt tank of it. Here is tank 3:










And here are some close ups:





























So, I started to "wash" the forest soil yesterday that I collected this weekend.










and after some "wash" ...........


















It contains a very "reddish" color and it is almost only gravel in different sizes left . I have probably washed it too much.I do not think this "soil" contains much nutrition, but if I mix it with one of the commercial garden soils I should be fine perhaps?

Another question, while watching my other tanks yesterday evening, I saw release of bubbles from the bottom layer of the tank with tiger soil, without me poking in it. It seems like this tank have started to release bubbles by itself randomly. I did smell and there was no smell at all at the surface of the tank. Can it be the magic CO2 release from the soil, or is that too early and too naive to expect? And when should I expect the plants to start growing like crazy? I am into week 4 now, is there a particular time point when we should expect great plant grown (if the soil is what we hope it should be for a planted tank)? Is it after 4 weeks, after 8 weeks, or longer?

What I am trying to figure out is which soil I am going to put in tank 3. The soil which release a lot of bubbles or the tank with a faint smell of manure and less bubbles. The tiger soil vs the sowing soil. Ideally, I should just wait and see how the plant growth goes in these two tanks.

*Sowing soil*
Size: 0-15mm
Organic content: >40%
Density: 440 kg/m³
pH-value: pH 5,5 - 6,5
Totalnitrogen (EN 13654-1 1500 mg/l)

*Composition*: light peat moss (H2-H4), dark peat moss (H6-H8), sand, *organic chicken manure*, limestone, kalimagnesia.

*Aditions pr. m3:*
Magnesium and limestone: 5,5 kg
Chicken manure: 2 kg
Kalimagnesia/patenkail (potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate): 0,3 kg


*"Tiger soil"
Composition:* Garden compost, Vermicompost, sand, *chicken manure*
For outdoor use, can contain worms, for plants in pots, to improve current soil, use nitrogen fertilizer after own choice.
Size: 0 - 10 mm
Density: 580 kg/m3
pH 7,6

*Nutrition in mg/L*
Nitrogen (N) 3000
Natrium (Na) 46
Ammonium (NH4) 0,23
Sulfat (SO4)10
Nitrat (NO3) 13
Bor (B) 1,2
Fosfor (P) 4,2
Kobber (Cu) 1,7
Kalium (K) 1200
Jern (Fe) 87
Kalsium (Ca) 5300
Mangan (Mn) 3,7
Magnesium (Mg) 160
Sink (Zn) 15


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The Forrest soil looks pretty low on organic content. You wash away the clay content it seems. It looks really natural though.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> The Forrest soil looks pretty low on organic content. You wash away the clay content it seems. It looks really natural though.


Yeah, I am afraid so, it is a very poor type of forest soil where I live, not much soil, mostly gravel and sand after the ice age. The "uncomposed" peat, grass, pines etc. have more or less been washed out. That`s also why I thought it might be a good idea to mix it with some richer garden soil? 

Today, I have ordered a new type of soil from the store, called Ø-kompost (ecological composted plant material and nothing else). If I mix this with some fine sand or the forest "soil" that I have collected it might work out? Would also like to add a tiny spoon of bone meal to the mix for some extra N and P.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah, you can mix in the new compost soil into the forest soil. No need to add anything else. Compost is rich in N & P.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Soil/plant question: my Ceratopteris thalictroides turns black, or at least the stem turns black (see pic below). Never seen this with plants before. Ceratopteris thalictroides is the only plant I have that turns black. This seem to occur only in the tank with the "tiger soil". Any comment on that? Ceratopteris thalictroides should be a rapid growing plant with low CO2 demands and moderate need for light exposure.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Pull out the affected plant to see if the roots are black or melted. It’s a sign of anaerobic soil I mentioned.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The plant looks good to me. If it is growing well, I would leave it alone. It could be harmless red algae or metal sulfide deposits on the stems. Both dark colored. The Tiger soil could have some excess metal micronutrients that are reacting with stem leachates and precipitating. Only if the roots are black and mushy (decomposing) would I remove this nice plant.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Question after 4 weeks with the Walstad tanks:

Both tanks with soil (sowing or tiger) contain air bubbles in the soil. After poking with a thin stick it smells really bad from the tank containing sowing soil. Clearly, anaerobic conditions, smelling hydrogen sulfide. What should I do with this tank? The plants seem to do just fine at the moment, growing. The other tank (tiger soil) contain more air bobbles in the soil, but they do not smell (at the moment). Some plants grow in both tanks, at least plants like: Hygrophila polysperma, Nymphaea zenkeri, Nymphoides hydrophylla and Pistia stratiotes. I will add some photos on Monday when I am back after the weekend.

The water test for both tanks:
NH4 = <0,05
NO2 = 0,05
NO3 = 3 (sowing soil) and 5-15 (15 after poking, 5 before poking, tiger soil)


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The bubbles with no smell is CO2. You want to leave that alone for the plant.
The anaerobic tank, you want to poke everyday to introduce O2 into the soil. Hopefully the condition goes away over time.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> The bubbles with no smell is CO2. You want to leave that alone for the plant.
> The anaerobic tank, you want to poke everyday to introduce O2 into the soil. Hopefully the condition goes away over time.


Great! I will poke like a maniac then and hope it will improve over time. Its a bit boring to start all over again if I can avoid it.


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## Oslo (2 mo ago)

Some pictures of the tanks 

"Tiger tank"































"Sowing soil"





































Question: should/can I remove the 5W powerhead from the lower water layers or should I let it be?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I wouldn't change anything in this tank. Keep the powerhead. You've got a winner.


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