# New NPT - LOTS of algae



## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi all,

I have my NPT running for a couple of weeks. Its a 200 Gal (96"L x 24"H x 20"D). Mineralised top soil capped with gravel. Water parameters are: pH 8, kH 5, gH 8. Temp 82 - 84 F. Ammonia is 0 ppm. (Water comes from a well). Lights are 128W of T8 plus lots of sunlight.

Ammonia and pH readings come from a live pH, live Ammonia tester which is always "safe". The live pH meter read 7 for a couple of days, but suddenly stopped working. Also tested with a Tetra Laborett kit and ammonia is 0; pH read 8 last time i checked. 

The big problem is that i am getting just about EVERY algae type possible. it was fine for about a week or so, but for the past 2-3 weeks its been going downhill: 

Green Water, Staghorn, some green hair, some black hair... the worst is the green water and ugly black hair thing that's covering plants and substrate.

I have the following plants (/weeds ) :
Ceratophyllum submersum, Anubias ‘Marble’, Echinodorus ‘Rose’, Egeria densa, Hemianthus Callitrichoides, Hydrocotyle verticillata, Hygrophyla difformis, Bacopa caroliniana, Vallisneria americana and a couple unidentified plants that look like some Ludwigia type.... 

Plants seem to be growing ok and many pearl nicely. Nothing great yet, but if they werent covered in algae i'm sure they'd be looking much nicer. The HC will probably not work, but i'm only giving it a try to see how it goes. The tank looks densely planted, although it could use a few more plants. (I have some pics but i have a problem downloading them to my PC). Will post pics as soon as the issue is solved... Fish are very healthy. No casualties, no obvious signs of stress... i even have some Clown loaches and they are doing fine.

WHAT CAN I DO TO GET RID OF ALL THIS ALGAE??

Thanks in advance!


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Here's my plan of action:

1. Just did a 40% WC /algae vacuum. Will continue w/ similar weekly WCs.
2. Added a Pleco. I was avoiding it, but he's already working the algae covering larger leaves.
3. Will add Mollies or Swordtails to eat some more algae. 
4. Cut down feeding in half, so my fish eat more algae (angelfish, tetras, gouramis, rainbow shark) and to decrease ammonia production.
5. Improve the shading for my tank. It's getting too much sunlight.
6. Add more plants, and be patient.

Does this make sense? Any other sugestions / experiences? 

Regards


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

f1ea said:


> Any other sugestions / experiences?


I went through the same thing. BBA, green hair algae, diatoms. It all started to die off as the substrate stopped pumping ferts into the water column, and the frogbit and duckweed got established. Floating plants compete directly with algae; they both pull their nutrition from the water so the more floating plants you have, the harder it is on algae. Unless you dose, eventually the tank water will get anemic in one or more essential nutrients and your algae will start to die.

Good luck!
Jim


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

Most of the algae you describe are growing due to a lack of ferts/CO2. If I were you I would keep water changes to a minimum as this removes valuable plant food. Also do not decrease feeding as this is an important source of plant food/CO2 etc unless there is loads of uneaten food accumulating. Manually remove as much of the algae as possible and prune back plant leaves/stems that are covered in algae - this will stimulate more plant growth.
Healthy plant growth suppresses algae and plants grow at their best when they have all the nutrients they need. The type of algae is usually an indication of what is lacking see below algae guide
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

brenmuk said:


> Most of the algae you describe are growing due to a lack of ferts/CO2.


Maybe I'm dense or something, but can you explain to me how this can be possible? If you add ferts and CO2 to the water, why isn't the algae going to take advantage of it for it's own growth along with the plants? How can this work in only the plant's favor and not that of algae? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Jim


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## angc84 (Aug 27, 2009)

Dustymac said:


> Maybe I'm dense or something, but can you explain to me how this can be possible? If you add ferts and CO2 to the water, why isn't the algae going to take advantage of it for it's own growth along with the plants? How can this work in only the plant's favor and not that of algae? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Jim


I believe that when a tank is dosed and CO2 injected, the plants will be able to utilize the light and nutrient better. Algae is able to use the light/nutrient without supplemented fert and CO2. The idea is to find a good balance of light/CO2/nutrient for plants, and the plants will be able to out-compete the algae. It's more of an idea of a EI tank, not so much of a NPT.


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

angc84 said:


> I believe that when a tank is dosed and CO2 injected, the plants will be able to utilize the light and nutrient better. Algae is able to use the light/nutrient without supplemented fert and CO2. The idea is to find a good balance of light/CO2/nutrient for plants, and the plants will be able to out-compete the algae. It's more of an idea of a EI tank, not so much of a NPT.


Well, I understand this is the rational which seems as pervasive as an outbreak of BBA, but I still don't understand the mechanism where adding more CO2 to the water isn't going to benefit the algae along with the other flora. Heck, they're even talking about CO2 sequestration using algae because it likes CO2 so much.

And while we're at it, maybe someone can explain to me why, in my three NPTs, the light is relatively low, there's never been any wide-spectrum dosing of fertilizers, there's never been any CO2 injection, there is spectacular plant growth, yet there is little to no algae growth? I mean, if there is some justification to what I perceive as a myth, I would really love to know what it is.

TIA
Jim


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## angc84 (Aug 27, 2009)

Dustymac said:


> Well, I understand this is the rational which seems as pervasive as an outbreak of BBA, but I still don't understand the mechanism where adding more CO2 to the water isn't going to benefit the algae along with the other flora. Heck, they're even talking about CO2 sequestration using algae because it likes CO2 so much.
> 
> And while we're at it, maybe someone can explain to me why, in my three NPTs, the light is relatively low, there's never been any wide-spectrum dosing of fertilizers, there's never been any CO2 injection, there is spectacular plant growth, yet there is little to no algae growth? I mean, if there is some justification to what I perceive as a myth, I would really love to know what it is.
> 
> ...


In fact, I see your point. I was experimenting with a high-tech tank, and I got my first case of GW the day after I started CO2. Good thing is the GW wiped out every other algae (BBA, BGA..etc). The whole purpose of an experimental tank is to observe what happens and all. In every tank, high-tech or el natural, there is a balance to be reached. What is funny is that there seem to never be two identical tanks, even if two were set up with the exact same conditions.

I cannot answer your question, but I can only say that it's the wonder of mother nature. =)


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, and even more for the interesting discussion!

The way I see it, my tank must be definitely lacking CO2. its got enough nutrients, but more light than the plants can handle with the available CO2.
Good point made here about keeping up with fish feeding, I was thinking about it in the sense of NH3, but seeing it as a source of CO2 then it makes good sense (added the fact that I've constantly had 0 ammonia).

I've got KNO3 that I could fert, but without the CO2 I see very little point in supplementing my soil.... Excel would be nice, but for a 200 G I'd rather get press. CO2.

So from what I've understood, I'll keep regular feeding, improve the shading, and definitely add more plants.
Will add more Egeria densa... It it doesn't compete w/ algae then nothing will... 

Thanks!
Each tank is its own experiment, and I'd rather work things out naturally than going all out with gadgets... So everyone's experiences are always welcome


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

I suppose the idea of an NPT (at least for me) is to get a balance between plant nutrient demand and nutrient supply. When this is in balance the plants are happy and the tank as a whole is happy. When plant growth is limited by one or more of the major nutrients you start to get algae and some or all of the plants stop growing. The 2 main things that dictate plant nutrient demand is light and plant biomass and the major source of nutrients is from the soil especially in the beginning and fish food. To help achieve the balance you can increase feeding (this has limits of course), prune back your plants to reduce biomass and limit the amount of light (fiddle around with duration/intensity etc). 
You can also add ferts and extra CO2 etc but for me this is not an attractive option as most people who add extra ferts etc also recommend more tank maintenance :sad:.



Dustymac said:


> Maybe I'm dense or something, but can you explain to me how this can be possible? If you add ferts and CO2 to the water, why isn't the algae going to take advantage of it for it's own growth along with the plants? How can this work in only the plant's favor and not that of algae? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Jim


Excellent question - I have asked 'experts' this and never really got a good explanation. However the fact that we put fertile composts and soils in NPTs and those that use Tom Barrs EI method where they add loads of ferts/CO2 and get algae free lush planted tanks shows that nutrients in a planted tank do not cause algae.


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

brenmuk said:


> I have asked 'experts' this and never really got a good explanation. However the fact that we put fertile composts and soils in NPTs and those that use Tom Barrs EI method where they add loads of ferts/CO2 and get algae free lush planted tanks shows that nutrients in a planted tank do not cause algae.


Well, I'm no chemist but Diana's book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ has given me the confidence to think I understand the what's really going on with hi-tech tanks. Maybe...

The way I see it, EI works because you aren't adding sufficient quantities of the one fertilizer to the water that algae needs. Diana has made the case, both in the book and on this forum, that pertaining to NPTs, the particular *essential* element is iron. In fish food, the iron ends up deposited at the bottom of the tank in feces where it recharges the substrate (unless you vacuum it up). When added as a micro-fert, it is quickly scrubbed from the water column by healthy plants, hence the myth that fertilizing the plants to make them healthy kills algae. And if the EI aquarist adds too much iron, which could set the stage for algae growth, it's remedied by weekly water changes.

So, you have daily dosing, gravel vacuuming and you return the whole ecology back to square one through water changing. This is way too much work. I know because before finding *The Book* I had two hi-tech tanks with CO2 generation and things got out of kilter fast, thanks to CO2 speeding up everything, and both tanks were swallowed up by BBA. I managed to salvage one but the other got stripped down and rebuilt with a soil substrate. But I digress...

In the naturally planted tank, aka NPT, rooted plants get their iron from the soil substrate. Iron that's added through fish food never enters the water column where algae can get it, instead passing through the fauna as feces and recharging the substrate as mulm. Once the new NPT has settled down and stops "pumping iron" into the water column, algae have no other place to get the absolutely necessary iron unless the NPT aquarist makes the mistake and doses their tank, which will necessitate water changes. (groan)

Therefore the premiss that the


> EI method where they add loads of ferts/CO2 and get algae free lush planted tanks shows that nutrients in a planted tank do not cause algae.


 isn't completely correct. If what I think is true, the algae will thrive in such a tank given an excess of iron which isn't periodically flushed from the water column by regular water changes. Anyone with a mature and stable EI tank, and who doses iron, can test this hypothesis fairly easily by upping their iron dose and ceasing water changes.

Anyway, that's all I think I know until Diana comes along to set me straight! 
Jim


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## brenmuk (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm aware of the Fe in the water column theory and know that some experts say they believe it is the limiting factor in algae growth while others that say that it has no significant effect on limiting algae.
Below is a thread on the UKAPS forum where there is a good discussion on how plants may suppress algae (especially towards the end of the thread).

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6738


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Some interesting statements...



Dustymac said:


> The way I see it, EI works because you aren't adding sufficient quantities of the one fertilizer to the water that algae needs. Diana has made the case, both in the book and on this forum, that pertaining to NPTs, the particular *essential* element is iron. In fish food, the iron ends up deposited at the bottom of the tank in feces where it recharges the substrate (unless you vacuum it up).
> 
> In the naturally planted tank, aka NPT, rooted plants get their iron from the soil substrate. Iron that's added through fish food never enters the water column where algae can get it, instead passing through the fauna as feces and recharging the substrate as mulm. Once the new NPT has settled down and stops "pumping iron" into the water column, algae have no other place to get the absolutely necessary iron
> 
> ...


So basically, the key element that leads to algae is IRON, not (lack of) CO2 as i am more or less inclined to believe...

I know there is LOTS of iron in soil. (Everyone try this: when i was a little kid i played with a magnet rubbing it through soil... lots of previously invisible iron particles stick to the magnet. That's your iron in soil.). So in my case, i may have a high iron content in the soil, as most of my algae is growing on the substrate.

Another interesting thing is that the new NPT has much softer water than what I am getting at my other tanks (one w/ inert susbtrate) and 'fed' the same tap water (well) as the NPT...... Last time i tested my tap water it was pH 7.4, kH 7, gH 13 (tank is showing ph 8, kH 5, *gH 8* ). I will test my tap water today to see if has changed since last time i tested.

Hence i am almost certain i am lacking CO2 / too much light or not large enough plant mass to suck up iron. But wouldnt a larger plant mass increase my CO2 deficit?

Are the plants sequestering carbon and other minerals from the water thus dropping hardness (due to lack of CO2 / too much light), or are there any other processes going on in a new NPT that are likely to lower hardness??

How about, if the problem is excess iron... would adding other nutrients (without adding iron or CO2) combat algae??

Regards!


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

brenmuk said:


> I'm aware of the Fe in the water column theory and know that some experts say they believe it is the limiting factor in algae growth while others that say that it has no significant effect on limiting algae.
> Below is a thread on the UKAPS forum where there is a good discussion on how plants may suppress algae (especially towards the end of the thread).
> 
> http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6738


I'm sorry, that thread is three pages long and I'm supposed to do some work today. Can you copy/paste the relative text? Thanks!

Jim


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

f1ea said:


> So basically, the key element that leads to algae is IRON, not (lack of) CO2 as i am more or less inclined to believe...


From my experience, adding CO2 is just like hitting the accelerator pedal in a car. Everything happens the way it's supposed to happen, but just a lot faster. CO2 will make your plants grow fast but so will the algae. I think the correlation to the myth occurs when there is a finite amount of an essential nutrient. I don't think it necessarily has to be iron. If you don't increase ferts along with the increase in CO2, the essential ingredient for algae growth that's floating in the water will get exhausted sooner, leading one to believe that CO2 is bad for algae.



> Another interesting thing is that the new NPT has much softer water than what I am getting at my other tanks (one w/ inert susbtrate) and 'fed' the same tap water (well) as the NPT...... Last time i tested my tap water it was pH 7.4, kH 7, gH 13 (tank is showing ph 8, kH 5, gH 8). I will test my tap water today to see if has changed since last time i tested.


My tap water varies somewhat, ie GH ranges between 0-3. But this brings up another knock against water changing: do we really know everything that's in our tap water? How can we be sure we aren't adding just the nutrients the algae needs? My tap water has lots of silicates which feed diatoms. It's why my hi-tech tanks failed - if I changed the water I got diatoms, if I didn't I got algae.



> Hence i am almost certain i am lacking CO2 / too much light or not large enough plant mass to suck up iron. But wouldnt a larger plant mass increase my CO2 deficit?


Only if you really have a deficit. Are your plants growing?



> Are the plants sequestering carbon and other minerals from the water thus dropping hardness (due to lack of CO2 / too much light), or are there any other processes going on in a new NPT that are likely to lower hardness??


Yes, plants soak up calcium, potassium and magnesium from the water, lowering hardness, and then those nutrients are removed during pruning, but your hardness should be recharged with regular fish feeding. The hardness dropped in my NPTs because of a snail population bomb. Big snails. Apple snails. So I had to dose with calcium and magnesium to keep up, but the levels have leveled off lately.



> How about, if the problem is excess iron... would adding other nutrients (without adding iron or CO2) combat algae??
> 
> Regards!


I don't think it's about adding nutrients but limiting essential nutrients. You can add all the nutrients you want but the plants and algae will only grow as fast as permitted by the least essential nutrient. I think where algae is concerned, that nutrient is iron, and generally for the whole ecosystem, it's CO2. If this is correct, then you can add anything you want to the water and pump up the CO2, but as long as iron is limited, or you don't add any more, your algae will eventually fade.

Diana? Save me?


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

> From my experience, adding CO2 is just like hitting the accelerator pedal in a car. Everything happens the way it's supposed to happen, but just a lot faster. CO2 will make your plants grow fast but so will the algae. I think the correlation to the myth occurs when there is a finite amount of an essential nutrient. I don't think it necessarily has to be iron. If you don't increase ferts along with the increase in CO2, the essential ingredient for algae growth that's floating in the water will get exhausted sooner, leading one to believe that CO2 is bad for algae.


i think LIGHT is the accelerator pedal.

One thing i know for sure is that my tap water has lots of CO2 and probably phosphates. But i will test it tonight to see what theparameters are right now. I know it varies as well, and it has rained a lot lately, so its possible the hardness has decreased a bit.....



> Only if you really have a deficit. Are your plants growing?


Actually, they are. 
It's more noticeable in Egeria Densa, as it is easier to observe how much its grown... also, Hygrophylia Difformis is doing pretty good... my main problem with plants is that they are getting covered w/ algae. I do a vacuum like 3x a week to get rid of some from the plants and substrate. Even HC has not died (in about 2 weeks); i'm kinda surprised, i thought it was going to do worse.



> Diana? Save me?


Yeah... save us


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dustymac said:


> I went through the same thing. BBA, green hair algae, diatoms. It all started to die off as the substrate stopped pumping ferts into the water column, and the frogbit and duckweed got established. Floating plants compete directly with algae; they both pull their nutrition from the water so the more floating plants you have, the harder it is on algae. Unless you dose, eventually the tank water will get anemic in one or more essential nutrients and your algae will start to die.


I agree with above. You may just have to add floating plants and wait until substrate settles down. 
In addition, I'd like to know what kind of water movement is in this tank? Air bubblers and excessive filtration will hurt the plants by degassing CO2. 
Finally, a picture would be a big help.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> I agree with above. You may just have to add floating plants and wait until substrate settles down.
> In addition, I'd like to know what kind of water movement is in this tank? Air bubblers and excessive filtration will hurt the plants by degassing CO2.
> Finally, a picture would be a big help.


Yesterday i tried to get some bunches of Egeria densa, but they were out. They only had left 1 bunch of H. Difformis... so i got it. I will go today and try to find a couple of Watter lettuce plants.

For water circulation/filtration i have:

1. 5-tray Canister filter (400 GPH - 2x Phyisical, 2x Biological, 1x Carbon). I'll only have the carbon for as long as this insert lasts to take care of whatever unknown chemicals might linger about. Later i'll change it to either peat or another sponge media (or maybe none at all for extra water flow).

2. Submersible pump: 160 GPH. I am using a spray bar connected to the pump's outlet.

3. Hagen Stingray filter. Just an extra small filter i had idling... so i put it in the corner that showed the least movement.

From what i see water is circulating fine (except in the corner where i put the stingray, that's why i put it there). I've arranged the outlets so that the surface makes a nice circular motion with some ripples (I can tell by the motion of floating debris), but never bubbles/splashes. Also, i will substitute the stingray for another 160GPH pump (don't want to have a huge pump giving the fish a workout and uprooting plants).

There's no airstones, and no water splashing. All outflows are drowned (about 4" below the surface). Ammonia has always been 0ppm. Main algae are: GREEN WATER and BLACK HAIR.

Will post a pic tonight...

Thanks!


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

I came accross this read a few days ago:
http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/green_water.php

One bit that caught my attention:


> When algae dies and is subjected to aerobic bacterial decomposition by heterotroph bacteria, a by-product of this process is a substance, released into the water, that is toxic to the living algae.
> 
> This theory is exactly the opposite of competition effects. Remember the myths based on Liebig's Law involve the removal or reduction of some factor, such as nutrients, or light, required by the bloom algae. This theory states that something is naturally ADDED to the water that kills the bloom algae. A similar example of this effect is penicillin, a substance that is released by one microorganism (a form of yeast), which is toxic to other microorganisms. The term for a substance released by one microorganism that is inhibitory to another microorganism is called an antibiotic and that name applies here as well.


From what i read, Green Water algae actually goes through a 'cycle' where a certain type of bacteria/enzyme develops within the system and eventually inhibits green water algae growth.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

*Picture*

Here's a quick picture.
As you can see... there is not much to see 

The plants are doing ok, actually improving day by day... right now it has 'decent' plant mass, although i'll put several more (as many as will physically fit). Pump is on the left side, filter output on the right, inlet about 2' L to R, at 18" depth.

There is still lots of work to do... on the tank/scape, the arrangement and the surroundings... more and better pics will come as things improve (hopefully!!)

Regards


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

*Re: Picture*



f1ea said:


> Here's a quick picture.
> As you can see... there is not much to see


Yikes, that is some GREEN water. I've had slight cases of gw before but I could always see the back of the tank. They've cleared up on their own in about a week or so. And now that most of my setups have UV filters, green water is pretty much history.

If one of my tanks looked like yours, I would freak out and spring for an ultraviolet filter. Since installing mine, fish mortality has improved along with the water clarity, and they provide some water circulation. I would also fill up my canister filter with floss and check/rinse it once a day. The floss won't catch all of it, but eventually all that green is going to die and it has to land somewhere.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Jim


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Flea, thanks for picture and information on your filters.

I know its tough to do, but I would just wait it out. Based on your first letter, its less than 3 weeks since you set it up.

You could try removing one or two of those filters. (The more water movement, the more CO2 loss.) However, in this situation, I think that getting floating plants to grow and just waiting it out will help the most.

GW (Green water) algae often crashes after a month or two, never to be seen again. [Perhaps over time, a virus or protozoa population builds up enough to kill the GW algae.] Once GW algae is gone, your plants should start growing well enough to compete with the other algae in your tank.

Folks, here's evidence that mineralizing soil ahead of time may not be worth the trouble. Except for my two experimental "Dry Start Method" tanks, I always set up tanks with soil and plants the same day.


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks for your helpful replies!



dwalstad said:


> I know its tough to do, but I would just wait it out. Based on your first letter, its less than 3 weeks since you set it up.


Yes, the tank is pretty recent. I think i have no choice but to wait it out and plant some more floating plants. Once i can SEE the tank, i'll make the aquascape nicer.....



> GW (Green water) algae often crashes after a month or two, never to be seen again. [Perhaps over time, a virus or protozoa population builds up enough to kill the GW algae.] Once GW algae is gone, your plants should start growing well enough to compete with the other algae in your tank.


Yes, i think so too. I posted a link above with a study that strongly suggests this... maybe you have some knowledge about it, but it sounds very interesting. The author suggests a bacteria (of the pseudomonas/aeromonas family) colonizes filter media (and soil) and gets rid of green water algae. Perhaps some soils/filter media already have lots of this bacteria, while others don't..... my canister filter was brand new when i installed it.

My tank had 0 ppm ammonia from day 1, and yet after about a week the water went absolutely green >> leads me to believe green water has more to do with something else (the bacteria above) and not necessarilly ammonia in the water column. Perhaps an outrageous ammonia spike or a drastic change in conditions in a settled aquarium kills this bacteria and GW comes back??



> Folks, here's evidence that mineralizing soil ahead of time may not be worth the trouble. Except for my two experimental "Dry Start Method" tanks, I always set up tanks with soil and plants the same day.


Agree, i don't think its worth the hassle. Depending on your plants, the 'dry start' makes more sense as you are actually kick starting the PLANTS and beating out the initial stress w/o the presence of algae. The rest of your luck i think depends largely on what's in your soil....

Regards!


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## Joeinlondon (Jan 22, 2009)

Hi F1ea

You may be over your algae problems by now, but if not I thought I'd offer you this tip, just in case it helps.

Like me, you are bending the Walstanite doctrine with the great depth of your tank. Have you considered lowering the water level for a period? This would 1) increase plant mass instantly in relation to water volume, 2) might emerse a plant or two here and there and 3) get better light to your smaller, lower plants, thus helping them out a bit.

I have a tank 24 inches high, but when it was set up I only filled it to about 17 inches or so, and have only increased depth gradually over a few months. I think in this way, you can give the plants an advantage - thus helping to curtail algae at the potentially tricky opening stages of an NPT.

Best of luck - such a big tank is going to be fantastic when it has bedded in.

Joe


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