# The Fe disappearing act!



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I am currently (using a dosing pump) dosing about 7ml of Flourish a day into a 200l tank, or almost 50ml a week.

After a couple of weeks of the above, I notice a slight yellowish tinge on some of the plants so I do the following:

1. Test my JBL Fe test kit by mixing 1ml of Flourish in 100ml of RO water, then using 1.25ml of this mix in 200ml of RO water. The test kit gives me the expected result of 0.2mg/l of Fe.

2. Immediately after this I test the water in the 200l planted tank. Fe shows 0...  

I know, Fe test kits are notoriously bad but remember that I just tested the kit against a known concentration and it matched. The Flourish bottle used for the test is the same as that currently being using for dosing the tank.

Several possibilities here:

1. My tank is going through Fe at the rate of 50ml of Flourish a week.

2. The Fe in the Flourish is precipitating out in the tank for some reason (?).

3. My highish KH of 13 is having a direct impact on the Fe somehow...

Tank is 3wpg, pressurized CO2 to around 40mg/l, lots of the other nutrients dosing through a second dosing pump (KNO3, K2SO4 and KH2PO4). I'm also dosing Flourish Excel at the Seachem recommended dosages to see if it has any positive impact on a CO2 injected tank (aside from as a possible algaecide).

Suggestions or comments? Anyone else getting such high Fe uptake levels? I guess I could just increase the Flourish dosing to 10 or 12 ml a day and see what the results are...


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, in high light, high growth tanks Flourish is often dosed at 2-3ml per 10 gallons(38l), 3x week.....or up to 9ml/p 10 gallons a week. A formula I used in my tanks is 1ml per gallon(3.8l) per week. I did not notice any issues, either deficicency or excess, when doing this. (side not, since switching from flourish to CSM+B I have not had the same terrififc results in my tanks)

If one compares this to your tank(200l=52gallons), you are dosing 1ml per 10 gallons(38 liters) per week. This is 10% of what I have found to work well.

How much Fe, in ppm, do you add with the 50ml of Flourish. Sorry, I don't know the concentration of Fe in it so I can't do the math.

On the other hand, it would seem that 50ml of flourish/week would be enough. I think the most important question is how are your plants growing?

As far as precipitation of Fe goes, does the PO4 and Fe get dosed within .5 hours of each other? I don't know about high kH affecting Fe, soory, no idea. I thought Excel was supposed to make Fe more available.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I think that option 1 is the most likely. If you've really got things going, you will indeed go through a whole lot of iron.

My 44 gallon (167 litre) tank goes through a lot. I add 8mls of Flourish and 12-14mls of Flourish Iron _every day_. My KH is 4, but I don't think that has much if anything to do with it.

I don't bother with iron test kits. The plants are a much better indicator of sufficient iron levels. If it looks like they need more, add it, even of you can't believe how much you're dumping in.

Do you add a separate source of just iron? I'd do that on top of the Flourish.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

dennis said:


> (side not, since switching from flourish to CSM+B I have not had the same terrififc results in my tanks)


I have found similar results moving from CSM+B to Flourish. Flourish has given me much better results than CSM+B...



dennis said:


> ...
> If one compares this to your tank(200l=52gallons), you are dosing 1ml per 10 gallons(38 liters) per week. This is 10% of what I have found to work well.


No, I'm dosing 50ml of Flourish per week. Works out to over 5ml per 10 gallons per week (at 200l but I usually calculate based on 175l volume).



dennis said:


> How much Fe, in ppm, do you add with the 50ml of Flourish. Sorry, I don't know the concentration of Fe in it so I can't do the math.


Works out to 0.91mg/l of Fe a week (per the Fertilator and using 175l as actual volume).



dennis said:


> As far as precipitation of Fe goes, does the PO4 and Fe get dosed within .5 hours of each other? I don't know about high kH affecting Fe, soory, no idea. I thought Excel was supposed to make Fe more available.


There is a 2 hour period between the dosing of the Flourish and the dosing of the macros.

Thanks for the answers. So 50ml a week doesn't sound extreme anymore  . I guess I should just go ahead and increase the dosing. I have a bottle of Flourish Fe around but have always thought that if the plants need more Fe they probably also need more traces so I might as well just add more Flourish...


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

That's what I used to think, but that isn't always the case (it might be ok on a low light tank). Adding more Flourish Iron than Flourish has worked well for me. 

You will undoubtedly see an increase in leaf size, color, and overall vigor.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Ok, I'll give that a try.

I'll keep the Flourish dosing at 7ml a day but add 5ml a day of Flourish Fe to the dosing pump recipient and see what the results are. That should give me about about 0.42mg/l of Fe per day into the tank compared to the 0.13mg/l per day I've been adding up until now.


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## Mnemia (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm just a beginner (only been at this a year), but I couldn't believe how much healthier my plants started to look when I began dosing Flourish and Flourish Iron at extremely high rates. Especially my Echinodorus species have much bigger leaves that are a deeper green color now. I now dose Flourish Iron daily at 3 mL for 20 gallons, and things look way better than they ever have before. Lack of iron seems to have been the final missing element for my tanks.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Laith,

Sorry to have said that in a funny way but I agree, I like Flourish over CSM. Much better results with Flourish. Also, my math was a bit off, but I am dosing 2x what you are. 1ml p/gal week versus your 1ml per/2 gal a week. The 2 hour window between macro and micro dosing should, from what I have read, be enough to avoid any PO4/Fe binding issues.

I believe Fe is one of the most important of the traces, aside from Mg and Ca. It is usually more limitited than Mg/Ca. Thus, it is logical to me that one might not be deficient in other traces while actually deficicent in Fe.

None of this answers your original question though...."After a couple of weeks of the above, I notice a slight yellowish tinge on some of the plants so I do the following"

Is it percipitate, algae, or what?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

This topic needs to be kept up because I have the feeling that many people underdose the iron.

Testing is not the best approach to determine if one adds enough iron. It's best to observe certain plants that quickly (within a day) get pale if iron is lacking. For example Mayaca or Eichornia diversifolia (stargrass).

My experience with testing for iron is similar to Laith's. I added certain amount of Fluorish Iron to a 1 gallon jug and tested the Iron content. I added more and kept testing until I read a definite 0.1 ppm.

Then I added the corresponding amount in a 55 gal. tank. Tested almost immediately. Got no reading. Added more Fluorish Iron - no reading. I added at least 3 or 4 times (if not more I don't remember well) the amount needed and never got a reading. Since then I don't test for iron.

A short time ago I had a tank full of E. diversifolia that would turn pale within a day and a half if I didn't add enough iron. And here's the interesting part: I was adding 4 ml. of CSM+B and Sequestrene 330 solution (a 10% Iron chelate) daily to a 18 gal. tank. The Iron concentration in that combined solution was much more than the Iron concentration in Fluorish Iron.

I don't think that my solution was bad. I prepared it once a week so it was fresh, the bottle is white, not transparent. 23.81 grams of CSM+B and 23.81 grams of Sequestrene in 500 ml. of RO water. Four mls. of that killer mix is a lot of Iron. But the plants did need it.

The moral of my rant is that more Iron seems to be not only good but probably much needed.

--Nikolay


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I've just mixed up a new batch of micros for the dosing reservoir.

A mixture of Flourish and Flourish Fe that'll give me 0.15mg/l Fe a day from the Flourish and 0.15mg/l of Fe from the Flourish Fe. Total of 0.3mg/l of Fe a day. (All this according to the Fertilator...).

I was going to make it stronger but this is already double what I was dosing before so I'll take it a step at a time.


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## fish7days (Jul 30, 2005)

Hi Laith,

Any update on this?

Thanks

André


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## New 2 Fish (Dec 31, 2004)

I'm curious how you would know if you're doing too much iron... I'm not sure if I'm doing enough either.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

> This topic needs to be kept up because I have the feeling that many people underdose the iron.


I can't agree more!!
Niko and I have spent hours talking on this subject I don't think I can overemphasize the importance of proper iron dosing the post that really opened my eyes on it is this posting from Tsunami:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=78&highlight=iron
And I quote:
Didiplis diandra <-- twisting, white leaves with brown spots... death of meristem
Eusteralis stellata (Pogostemon stellata) <-- pale, death of meristem
Myriophyllum tuberculatum (also known as mattogrossense 'red') <-- ugly brown colour, long internodes, death of meristem
Rotala sp 'Green' <-- twisting, curling leaves
Rotala macrandra <-- small leaves, death of meristem
Rotala macrandra v 'green' <-- loss of color, small, death of meristem
Rotala sp Nanjenshan <-- remains small, death of meristem
Rotala wallichii <-- small, lack of color, death of meristem

I can add much more
Rotalla Indica twisted white growth death of meristem.
Cardamile lyrata white leaves, melting
Anubias light green leaves
Ammannia gracilis twisted new leaves

You can have a ton of ferts NO3 K PO4 it matters not, if iron is lacking the whole tank will be stunted. With the amounts of light lots of us use this days and the inert substrates iron wise (remember Dupla used just gravel plus laterite in the substrate) the plants really suffer from the lack of iron in prolly lots of our tanks. From my observation it is not that much the traces I can do super fine np with 5 ml flourish daily in a 400 lt tank. It is the iron on each own that matters and there there is no reason to add it by paying money for flourish iron. I did some research on the net and it seems DTPA iron is a very good option and works miracles for me I add this separate from gluconate.
I use a colorimeter and believe it or not iron is one of the most precise and easiest tests and I can really verify Laith's iron disappearing act. Laith you are right iron here vanishes as well. I add 1/8 teaspoon 6% iron DTPA every other day to get a reading of just 0,16 ppm total iron the day after the additions it just disappears. Notice also that I am not the first one that has observed this:
Karen Randal:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200107/msg00638.html
I quote:
Karen Randall (who's experience and observations I trust implicitly) told us some time ago that she had to maintain iron levels at 0.5 mg/l with Tropica Mastergrow or her plants showed symptoms of iron deficiency.
Also from the same:
So why this big difference between what plants are supposed to need and
what they appear to need in our tanks?
One simple conclusion seems unavoidable; the plants are *not* using the
chelated iron that we diligently add and carefully measure. Rather,
they are using the much lower levels of ionic iron that are released as
the chelate breaks down. Plants probably won't use the chelated iron directly unless they are already iron-stressed, which appears as a visible iron deficiency. Some of us avoid the visible symptoms of iron deficiency by adding very high concentrations of chelated iron to the water column. Ionic iron is only briefly available as the chelate breaks down, and keeping high levels of chelated iron makes sure that the ionic iron is always sufficient to meet the plants needs.
Greg Watson here from Barr's site:
I'm a firm believer in maintaining much higher Iron levels that are currently considered normal ... a decade ago, "current thought" was to set a target of 0.1 ppm of Iron ... a lot of us are quietly keeping Iron levels closer to 1.0 - 2.0 ppm ...
Also Greg Watson here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=6840
I can't "explain to us your decision on using that much?" because there was never a decision to do so ... I have historically dosed supplemental Iron about twice a month based on visual observations of my plants needs ...
I would rather dose based on what my plants need rather than arbitrary numbers, calculations and kits ... and since Iron kits are notorious in peoples opinions about their reliability ... I don't think hardly anyone can dose an exact amount of Iron ... you can make a good guess of what kind of range you may be in, but for most of us, it is little more than a good estimated guess ...

So plants needs can tell us if iron is missing, some people have said that yellowing can come from N3 deficiency as well but this days I think with the new approaches we can sort the adding of NO3 and of the rest quite efficiently what then remains if this kind of symptoms appear would be iron here comes the "I watch my plants and add accordingly" that we hear around from various advanced hobbyists in a big degree at least. If all the rest is there you can add iron until all yellowing symptoms disappear this according to my observations can happen in a week's time (the leaves that are to much effected from the deficiency won't recover but the light green ones you will see them getting green and proper and from then, at least for me, the tank will change completely in speed and quality (some plants that never grew before will even start growing).
I also observe that things like fast glass algae appearance, film on the surface, green water will disappear after the addition of this last missing fert. I still have a small suspicion that iron in big excess can grow some forms of algae as well, like bba and diatoms but I cannot verify this completely.
Please realize that all this hold true in my really high light tanks and while all the rest of the ferts are present for sure.

My 2 cents
Freemann


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## Jerm (Nov 11, 2005)

Laith said:


> I have found similar results moving from CSM+B to Flourish. Flourish has given me much better results than CSM+B...


I believe Greg Watson ferts are selling a CSM+B extra iron, i believe that would give more sufficient iron levels


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

fish7days said:


> Hi Laith,
> 
> Any update on this?
> 
> ...


Yes, I can see better results from the extra dosing. However I reduced it a little bit due to a haze I'd get for a couple of hours after each dose. I think it's due to my hard water (KH 15, GH 18 ).



> I believe Greg Watson ferts are selling a CSM+B extra iron, i believe that would give more sufficient iron levels


I don't think the improvement I saw had to do with better Iron levels in Flourish vs CSM+B. My opinion is that, in my tanks, CSM+B lacks elements/traces that Flourish (and TMG) has.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Laith said:


> I don't think the improvement I saw had to do with better Iron levels in Flourish vs CSM+B. My opinion is that, in my tanks, CSM+B lacks elements/traces that Flourish (and TMG) has.


That has been my experience also, even higher dosing I got lots of stunting using CSM


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Very interesting thread to follow here, along with the older one that Freeman linked up to. Perhaps someone with the proper abilities could set up a spread sheet survey of some sort to correlate what people are dosing to their light levels and water hardness?? If this is an issue at high light levels, at what light level does the iron issue become less important? 

My bigger tanks (50gal) have a little over 2wpg, on a 10 I have 36W. Perhaps I will inch up the Fe on that 10 and see how what happens. I will have to add some more sensitive plants than what I currently have, but might be interesting.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

People thought I was insane dosing 1-2ppm of Fe back a decade ago. 
I have nagged folks for a long time to dose more traces.
I suggested 0.7ppm to 0.5ppm as a residual back then.(but added more to my own tanks)

I prefer TMG over Flourish. I've used both for over 10 years on many plant species. I like SeaChem and all, but I just prefer the look and sheen I get from TMG and it has less preciptation issues.

Hard water, particularly KH has a direct influence on any trace metal, not just Fe, but Cu, Mn, Zn as well.

You will be better off using a different chelator(DTPH) than the SeaChem organic ligand.

I too have a nice colormetric test, but it means little. 
The plants are the thing to watch. Traces are subtle. 
Alkalinity plays a huge role in the residuals.

Folks have said for many years that excess Fe cause thread algae etc.......
Funny, I never had issues with it. Folks have long thought plants do not need much. But they said that about PO4, NO3, K+, then CO2 etc also.

"Wildly dumping" in all these expensive traces........
Ooo , you bad kids you

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

How does an iron-rich substrate like eco affect FE dosing. My tank is 2 months old and now my stem plants seem to have stopped growing. Even after planting the tops they just don't have the incredible lush growth they had the first 45 days. Did the FE get depleted from the eco and now there's not enough in the water column? I dose KNO3, KH2PO4, Flourish, Flourish Trace, Flourish Potassium. I've been dosing about .06 ppm Fe 3 times/weekly. 

Also my tank is not heavily planted but has 3 main stem groups and the rest is ground cover.


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## New 2 Fish (Dec 31, 2004)

I've upped my iron dosing since reading this thread, and while this is probably just anecdotal type of evidence, my plants have been growing much better. However, at the same time, I've been trying to lower my hardness and revamping my other dosing amounts. So, this isn't a clear enough case to attribute to just the iron. I just thought it might be an interesting coincidence to see that it may be part of the reason my rotala which appeared dormant and stunted is now growing again.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

New 2 Fish,

My rotala (rotunda) is also looking stunted. What kind of dosing did you do and what are you now doing.


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## New 2 Fish (Dec 31, 2004)

Well, first I discovered that my water was way too hard, so I slowly started replacing water via water changes and not adding so much Ca and Mg.
I have a 30g btw.
I also put phosguard back in my filter since my phosphates had edged way up too high for some reason.
I was dosing 3ml of an iron chelate mixture from Greg Watson. I've gone up to about 7ml every other day now. 
I backed off on my macros- somehow I apparently had calculated things way wrong and was dosing about 1tsp of potassium every other day. Now I'm back to 1/8 tsp of K2SO4, and 1/16 of nitrate and 1/16 of phosphate every other day.
Sorry I can't be more accurate with the iron dosing as far as ppm - I just put 1 tsp of the iron chelate in 500ml of water and then dose by ml.....
Hope this helps somewhat.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

If plants need high levels of iron in the aquarium, then it seems logical that they must get high levels in their natural environment. I have some evidence that this is true.

I have seen that in the local ditches around where I live (central Mississippi) part of the water that comes into the ditches seeps in from the ground, and that this ground water is very high in iron, so high in fact that there is precipitated iron on the surface that sometimes looks rather like an oil slick and sometimes is reddish or rusty in color.

This picture is of a ditch in the process of being dug out and filled in. It used to have a healthy growth of Micranthemum umbrosum, Ludwigia, Polygonum and Hydrocotyle verticillata. The bare ground uncovered by the steam shovel allows the iron seeps to be seen more clearly. Plants that used to grow in the ditch had iron deposits on their leaves and stems. It may be that aquatic plants can utilize deposited iron.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

I just caught up on this one

Bert H:


> If this is an issue at high light levels, at what light level does the iron issue become less important?


Very interesting question. It seems to me there is something there. I have been thinking on this one and this is one option I found on the amount of light that can keep the things in balance, I like . Pjan's approach on this one is very interesting and I intend to use a similar light setup and watch and learn from the plants reactions (in a few words controlled amount of light in accordance to plants needs and abilities):
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18721&page=2&pp=15
answer number #23, it worths also reading from the beginning.
This one as well:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16792 on specifics concerning this light setup.
Lets not forget that the "amano movement"  has changed to less MH light hours and the rest just low watt PC's, after they had plant problems with continous long hours MH light (lots of light).
Freemann


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Laith;

How's the stepped up dosing going?

This thread would explain why, when I add the recommended Flourish and iron to my 110 gallon, I'm still showing Fe tests of 0.

I've been wary of increasing my dosing for fear of crippling my crypts.

Cheers.
Jim


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I've been playing around with the dosing of Flourish and Flourish Fe trying to find the maximum daily dose that avoids creating a haze in my tank and it looks like I can't get to the levels I think I need...

I have some TMG sitting around so I may do a two week trial using TMG instead of Flourish. Maybe the different chelator will let me dose more without getting that haze.

Of course my KH of 15-16 and my GH of 18-19 isn't making things any easier. I think that's what's causing the haze. The higher KH also apparently has a negative effect on the availability of traces to the plants so more needs to be dosed.

So a bit of a vicious circle: High KH needs more Fe but more Fe in high KH causes haze?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Hey Laith, when is it that you are adding the micros/iron? I too have high kh (9.5), gh (12) and know what you mean about the hazing. I add either after lights go out at night or early in the morning before I leave for work. This seems to minimize the problem by the time lights come on.

If not for the large stand of C. wendtii's in my tank, I would switch and try TMG. But wendtii's seem to melt if you look at them wrong sometimes, if you know what I mean.

BTW, I have slowly increased iron in the tanks and the rotundafolia looks the best it ever has, heck I didn't know the leaves could get so large. The aromatica which had withered to a nub is now nearly 8 inches long.


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## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

Laith,
I too have liquid rock and the haze that comes with dosing is annoying. It's usually worse when I dose iron and traces together.
Now I dose every night after "lights out" but I alternate the two.
The haze is gone by morning and the plants are raring to go at "lights on".

Bob


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

i think the haze is due to high kh, since i used to have hard water but low kh and got not haze when i dosed the iron/traces. Gh18, kh 6.

what is TMG and where do i get it?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Good idea about the dosing time. I dose about an hour before lights on, thinking (not sure why anymore  ) that the plants make best use of the iron when they're photosynthesizing... I'll switch to just after lights out.

And alternating the Flourish and Flourish Fe is just what I started doing about three days ago; one day Flourish and the next day Flourish Fe. No haze but I'm dosing a lot less Fe since the total is now spread over two days...



Zapins said:


> ...
> 
> what is TMG and where do i get it?


TMG is Tropica Master Grow and is made by Tropica, the Danish aquatic plant company that, in my opinion at least, has set the standard in growing quality aquarium plants for the retail market. TMG is an Fe/trace fert.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

thanks


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