# Ok, what am I doing wrong - EI Dosing



## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

Hi All,

This is my first post on APC but i have been lurking for the last few months or so trying to learn more. Please excuse this long first post, but I thought some background might be of help.

I set up a new tank in the beginning of Aug. All was going well, until I got my new lighting. 

I have 180 gallon tank (I figure 130 G water)
432 watts HO k6000 lighting. (so maybe a bit more than 3w/g)
Wasn't adding anything but some iron. (still learning)
Things were going fine, for about 2 weeks, plants were growing, pearling etc, and then I had the worst algae bloom ever. Green hair algae, red algae, BBA.. you name it, plants covered, substrate covered, it was disgusting. So I then starting learning more. 

I added pressurized CO2, cut the lights back (5 hours on ,3 off, 5 on) with only 324 watts of light, stopped fertilizing and added a small army of SAE's and Ottos.

3 weeks later the tank was clean again.

So then I densely planted the tank, and started dosing with pmdd. After 2-3 weeks, still no algae but none of the plants were growing. Nothing dying but nothing growing either.

SO I decided to try EI dosing since it seems to be what everyone else says is the best way to go. I bought the ferts, and started dosing like the fertilator calculated out for me. And have been doing so for more than 2 weeks now.

Here's my water chemistry prior to dosing.

Well Water (actually liquid rock) GH 700 ppm KH 400 ppm pH 7.8
Well Water from tap has 10-15 ppm Nitrate therefore not adding extra
Phosphate = Zero
Iron - zero

Using Fertilator set for 130 g I'm adding:

Sunday, Tues, Thur
No nitrate. (since natural nitrate is currently - 15 ppm)
Phosphate - .9 mL Fleet enema = 1.2 ppm
K2SO4 - 3 teaspoon = 17.51 ppm

Mon, Wed, Fri
With water this hard I figured there is enough calcium and Mag. and am not adding.
adding CSM+B - 1/4 teaspoon = 0.09 ppm Fe

pH is now 7.3 with Meter controlled pressurized CO2

50% Water change on Sundays. (Man what a job)

I am now 2 and 1/2 weeks into this routine. Since I did the 2nd 50% water change on Sunday (3 days ago), the tank has been getting cloudier and cloudier. I did the white bowl with tank water test and it is definately green water. (although in the tank it looks more white than green - probably the lights?!?)

My LFS says I changed too much water over the last 2 weeks and disrupted the system. I explained it was part of the EI regime but he was not familiar with it. 

Any ideas as to what the heck is going wrong?? 

BTW, I'm running with 2 Fluval 404's with biomax and polywool. Temp 26C

Plants seem to be starting to grow, they are pearling again, but it's getting hard to see the back of the tank now. Any ideas as to why the sudden green water attack? I thought abundance of nutrients, dense plantings (most plants 8-12 inches high) and added CO2 was supposed to keep algae at bay.

Any advise or ideas would be GREATLY appreciated.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You fell into a trap that seems to catch most of us. Your tap or well water has lots of nitrates, so you felt no need to dose any. But, you leave that water in the tank for a week, then replace half of it. What happens is the plants use up the nitrate that is in the water in a couple or so days, then they are starved for nitrate. When you change half of the water you have half the nitrate you had the first time you filled the tank, so the plants run out of nitrate even sooner this time. Now the plants are not growing well, so they are not able to use up any ammonia that is released by rotting food, rotting leaves, rotting dead fish or snails, disturbed substrate, etc. And, that ammonia surge, however brief tells the green water algae to start blooming.

So, the answer is obvious. Use the EI method if you want to use the EI method. Don't just go halfway, depending on something in the water to make up the deficiency. The whole reason for the 50% water change every week is to let us risk having excessive fertilizers in the water, knowing it will be corrected with the water change. Your other option is to try the PPS fertilizing system, where you try to match the plants demands with fertilizer dosing, but you do have to do a lot of testing to do that.


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

Hi Hoppycalif



hoppycalif said:


> You fell into a trap that seems to catch most of us. Your tap or well water has lots of nitrates, so you felt no need to dose any. But, you leave that water in the tank for a week, then replace half of it. What happens is the plants use up the nitrate that is in the water in a couple or so days, then they are starved for nitrate. When you change half of the water you have half the nitrate you had the first time you filled the tank, so the plants run out of nitrate even sooner this time.


Hmmm didn't realize that. As I say I'm in major learning mode here, I thought if my well water already had 15 ppm and I added more I'd be getting beyond the targets suggested. I really wasn't trying to take shortcuts. Got a bag of KNO3 ready to use.

Should I redo the water change now to correct this mistake or just start adding 2 teaspoons tomorrow & Sat (13ppm) until the next water change?

Thanks for the explanation! I'll nail this yet....


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I agree, the plants are probably consuming quite a bit and there's not enough in the water. Start adding more ferts now, and keep dosing regularly after your water changes. Within a few weeks you'll see a noticable difference.

Oh, and welcome to APC! 

-John N.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2006)

Okay, this post makes me nervous as heck to get my plants tomorrow from aquabotanic. First time aquascaper-person-hobbyist!

I just received my water bill for the month, and the nifty handout of the water testing they do in this area (greater Tucson, Arizona area) reads for my tap water are as follows:

August - Sept. 2006

Sodium (mg/L): avg. 57 (range 49-66)
Mineral Conent (mg/L): avg. 396 (as high as 471)
Hardness (mg/L)**: avg. 173 
pH: avg. 7.8
Temperature from the tap: avg. 87F!!!! (Range 82-96) :frusty: Damn you Desert!!

** 17.1 milligrams per liter = 1 grain per gallon So divide hardness by 17.1 for my area and you get 10.11 grains per gallon, I think?

There are currently no fish in this tank.

Any suggestions first off to alter the RIDICULOUS temperature that my tap water starts (My tank is hovering at 83-84F with the lights on, glass cover in between. My pH is right about 6.8-7.0, 29g tank) .....I was thinking of ice cubes in the filter, or delivering a few gallons of (treated and safe) cooled tap water.

---I have not invested in a serious KH/GH test, or an ammonia test...nor have I done anything more to alleviate any possible nitrate deficiencies than basic fertilizer tablets (Flourish tabs).
---I started injecting C02 into the tank several days ago in preparation to see what it would do to my pH before the plants arrived (Naturally it went down slightly).....of course, you'll say "Um, nothing is using that C02, so why did you do that?" Curiosity and impatience for plant order 

---I calculated my tank to have about 3.7 watts per gallon, which may seem a little excessive at this point, so I am going to program the timer with staggered lighting periods to be on the safe side for now.

I have a strange feeling that my plants are going to not do well at all because of:
---excessive heat
---very hard water
---possible ammonia spike from the tank being set up waiting for plants (another error of mine, I should've waited until I knew when I was going to get plants. This tank has been set up for nearly 3 weeks including malaysian driftwood, with C02 injection for about 6 days) Edit* There is a basic filtration system as I said, about 125gph.*

I feel like such a noob. I really thought I had these concepts under control, I was a microbiology major for a short time, haha....:help:


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Cytrane - 

Don't give up hope, each issue can be resolved, one at a time. Most plants are adaptive and will grow in a range of conditions. Most plants can handle the hardness. 

The temp is a little high, although Discus folks keep higher temp tanks, again it limits some plant choices. There are also some options to help cool the tank a little and or the water before you refill. Search: heat, cooling. Running part of the Python return hose thru an ice bath might help. Depending on the size of the tank one solution may be more effective than another. 

I think its very good your tank is up, running, and ready for your plants. You know how the system works and gotten the kinks out. If your worried about ammonia just do a water change or two before planting. Its much worse when you have to temporarily house new plants in buckets and bowl because something came up. Or it takes 3x as long to wash the Florite and now you're too exhausted.

My $. 02


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi Brad, Welcome! I keep doing the same thing...learning...learning, more learning; and this is a GREAT place to do so.

Have you been following the post by guaiac boy!?! He's also just started a 180 gallon planted tank and been dealing with some challenges. People have given alot of help there:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...lems/31619-ok-smart-people-kill-my-brown.html

I disagree with what the LFS is saying about the greenwater. Fish Folks have very little clues about a planted system; they can't even begin to comprehend 432 watts of light! Stick with the more experienced folks here!

I've dealt with greenwater a handful of times in learning and balancing my 75gal high ligh/ high tech tank. I believe that with our light levels the most frequent culprit is lots of digging, planting, uprooting in the substrate when rearranging the aquascape. Especially, if at the same I did a heavy pruning, significantly altering the plant mass; almost, without fail, there would follow the greenmonster. Some plant folks advise always following up a big dig with a big enough of a water change afterward. But with larger tanks it can be hard to flush out enough H2O. I found that with a big dig 50% wasn't enough. Anyway I found it VERY helpful to invest in a UV sterilizer. I do not run it 24/7, just when I uproot a lot as a safeguard. I just got tired of getting stuck with 75g of pea soup, let alone...180g! BLAH!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Cytrane, you can do wonders with the water temperature by using natures cooler - evaporation. Just mount as big a fan as you can in the end of the hood, so it blows across the water. That will cool the water a good 5 -10 degrees F, at the cost of making you replenish the evaporated water more often. The hardness shouldn't be a problem unless you try to grow some of the few plants that refuse to grow in anything but soft water. And, when you plant, be sure to plant very heavily, using a lot of fast growing stem plants you can get rid of later if you like. Even then you will have to deal with some algae issues. Algae is nature's way to cull the crop of planted tank owners of lazy folks!


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2006)

--Thanks Hoppy!

I did mount a desktop fan blowing across the surface, my large fan at this point is still vital in keeping my own room cool...

The small fan running for a few hours today cooled it a substantial 7 degrees, 87 to 80 now.

I don't know what the issue is with my UPS delivery, but the plants I have listed in my signature may *not* be a good way to start for a beginner, nor have they arrived as I expected them to today. 
All I know is that I wanted unique plants to start with.....probably set my hopes a bit high (then again, I am motivated, which helps).

The fan is going to be a fairly permanent addition to my tank until probably December here in the desert.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Cytrane, until you get your plants, I'd turn the lights off. That much light with no plants is going to lead to a disaster.

Once you do get your plants, you will need to fertilize properly. Flourish Tabs do not help with Nitrate  .

You will need to add NO3, PO4 and micros...

And welcome to APC!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Brad99,

In case nobody else mentioned this..... the Fleets calculations for phosphates are wrong in the Fertilator. It's one of the bugs we're working on fixing. You aren't adding nearly as much PO4 as you think you are.

I have a 46g bowfront that probably has about 38-40g of water in it. I add 1ml which adds approximately 1 ppm PO4. Also, if you have a 180g tank, you probably have more than 130g of water unless it's absolutely loaded with rocks or substrate. I'd probably figure about 150g or so. Not a big difference, but I think you're being too conservative.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

If you want to be in the ballpark on water volume (not needed when dosing EI) you can calculate your tank's water volume by myltiplying manufacturer's stated volume by 0.85. In your case, 180g x 0.85 = 153 gallons. Don't forget to account for large amounts of rockwork (as guaiac_boy mentioned) or sump volume when trying to determine your water volume.

I used the below info to figure Fleet dosing in my 75g tank. It may be more technical than you want so pay attention to the part I bolded and underlined for an easy dosing guide.

For 75 gallon tank
Assume 66.2 gallons for the 75 gallon tank and that we need 1 ppm PO4
1ppm = (1 mg/liter) x (66.2 gals x 3.77) = 250 mg PO4 needed.
(250 mg)/(131.36 mg/ml) = 1.90 ml of enema to get 1 ppm PO4 in 66.2 gallons of water/

*In general use .3 ml of enema per 10 gallons to get 1 ppm PO4.*

For 125 gallon tank
Assume 105.7 gallons for the 125 gallon tank and 1 ppm of PO4 is needed.
1.90 ml x (105.7/66.2) = 3.0 ml needed

The above info is from  this site. There is a lot of info on the site and may be more than most people are interested in.


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

Guaiac_boy,

No! I was not aware of the fleet bug in the fertilator. Thanks for pointing it out.

BTW, Mud Pie Mama pointed me to your 180g tank journal. Man do we have a LOT in common. (love your plumbing setup) I have been keeping a tank journal on my computer about this setup, hmmm maybe I should share it as you have in a journal here? I've also gone from the clear tank to the algae bloom you're experiencing now, to the clear tank, to this current green water attack. It's becoming quite the lesson in water chemistry and plant raising hasn't it! I have two 80 gal tanks that use the same water etc and have remained crystal clear. Only main difference is how long they've been established (about 15 years). Go figure.

Thanks again for the heads up about the fertilator!


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

Matt,

Actually I like the more technical. Thanks for the formula! Great link as well. (I see an excel sheet just screaming to be created  )

Speaking of technical I calculated my tank water volume as such: (I have about 5 inches of substrate average on the bottom)

Therefore 18.5 " x 71 " x 23" = 30210.5 cubic inches (inside dimensions)
1 cubic inch = 0.016387064 litres
Therefore I have 495 Litres of Water in the tank (130.8 U.S. Gallons)

So let's see 1 mg/L x 495L = 495 mg 
495 mg / (131.36 mg/ml) = 3.8 ml needed

That means I should actually be adding more that 4 times what I am currently (.9ml).

That's quite a difference! No wonder I wasn't seeing anything on the test kit. (I was assuming the plants were soaking it up fast)


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

Mud Pie Mama,

You know I completely forgot about UV! (too focused on ferts I guess)

I have a 2500 gallon pond in the backyard that I fought algae/green water with for YEARS! Tried everything - bacteria seeding of the filters, water changes, floculants, barley bales, you name it. It wasn't until I added UV that it remained clear. How could I have forgotten that battle! :frusty:

I'm taking the pond setup down this weekend (yes it actually started to snow yesterday - sigh) so the UV will be freed up for the winter. I think I'll head out to the LFS to get some additional adapters and hook it up for a few days.

BTW, has anyone used PClear for filtering out green water in a planted tank? (causes the algae to clump allowing it to be captured/filtered) Any negative effects on plants?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I've always used my HOT Magnum with the micron filter and some diatom powder to clear up Green Water. It works very well on my 75g and is cheaper than a dedicated Diatom filter. Plus, with the HOT, I always have an extra filter available in the event I find a used tank somewhere


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2006)

Hey Laith, thanks for the welcome 

This topic has really gotten my mind going about getting dry fertilizers (for their lower cost) and doing the fertilizers that way, KH2PO4, KNO3, and a CSM+B mix once that silly Flourish runs out. I plan on checking out Aquarium Plants, Aquatic Plants, Planted Aquariums, and Aquarium Plant Fertilizer for the dry fertilizers (I know they're massive quantities versus what I need).

The more topics and articles I read about SEACHEM products' and similar cost versus dry ferts, the less I want to use them, and just learn how to do these fertilizer measurements myself if I ever move to a larger scale, I won't be baffled.

I know I am on a much smaller scale than Brad's original post (Sorry Brad for hybriding this topic!!) but I'd really like to learn the technicalities of my tank and correct amounts of fertilizers needed, a schedule for it, and so on. I'll keep checking out the fertilizer posts to get a handle (as well as order some dry to keep my cost down) on this whole situation.

Thanks again!


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

*First reset since Green water attack*

One - 1200 L/h submersible pump - $35
40 ft of water/food grade hosing - $16
Assorted connectors - $3
Doing a 50% water change on a 180 g tank in 1 hour with only 10 minutes of actual hands on work - PRICELESS !! :whoo:

The tank was like pea soup this morning. Had to move up the water change to this evening to help clear it and reset the system. I can just see the back now after doing so.

Dosed the proper KNO3, K and Phos (thanks to the proper numbers for using fleet)

I've been reading that you should dose the traces on alternate days which I am doing. When is the best time to add the Mg?? With the other macros or the same time as the traces??

Would doing more than one 50% water change a week cause other problems or stress?This tank is still fairly young (2 1/2 months).


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

UPDATE:

After taking Mud Pie Mama's advice, I had hooked up UV to the tank to combat the green water bloom. After 3 days the tank was crystal clear. I read elsewhere on APC that some people hook the UV up for 24 hours after each water change. I am doing this now as well. I have resumed the EI dosing regime (complete with Nitrate supplimentation and increased Phos) and am pleased to say the tank has remained crystal clear now.

Thanks everyone for their input!


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Glad to hear everything is on the up and up! 

-John N.


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## Brad99 (Sep 27, 2006)

*EI Dosing and the Fertilator*

I'm wondering if I am using the Fertilator properly or incorrectly with regards to EI Dosing?!?

Let's just use Nitrate only for discussion.

I use 130 gal of water for tank volume:

To reach a Nitrate target of 10-20 ppm I have to add 2.5 tsp for KNO3 to give me 16.2 ppm (middle of the range)

Does this mean I should be adding 2.5 tsp KNO3 three times a week?? or should I have been adding approx .8 tsp KNO3 three times a week to have a total of 2.5 tsp for the week.

Some other threads I've been reading have me a bit confused about this.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

You're correct. Add the ferts in those amounts, 3 times a week. The target ranges are in short just for the day. 

Because on the initial day 1 of adding that 16.2 ppm of Nitrate, by day 2 or 3 the nitrate will bottom out to zero. By adding 3 times a week you are effectively ensuring that there is nutrients for the plants to consume throughout the week.

-John N.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

> Because on the initial day 1 of adding that 16.2 ppm of Nitrate, by day 2 or 3 the nitrate will bottom out to zero. By adding 3 times a week you are effectively ensuring that there is nutrients for the plants to consume throughout the week.


 Thats a TON of nitrate.... do you think that is really needed? I sure would like to see a tank that burns through 5-8 ppm N a day....

You would be fine keeping that cut back to 10 ppm N 3/x a week.... you simply dont need to dose more than that IME.... and at 30 ppm N a week that was simply much in excess for myself and many others I know also.....


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

John N. said:


> Because on the initial day 1 of adding that 16.2 ppm of Nitrate, by day 2 or 3 the nitrate will bottom out to zero. By adding 3 times a week you are effectively ensuring that there is nutrients for the plants to consume throughout the week.


That does seem a little rich on the fert dosing  I won't try to confuse you anymore Brad99 but your initial dose of fertilizers should get you into a "range" such as 20ppm of NO3. I would then dose 7-10ppm of KNO3 3x a week. That would give you in the range of 40-50ppm of NO3 by the end of the week assuming your plants do not use any NO3 during the week. You then do a 50% water change at week's end so after the water change, your levels should be in the 20-25ppm range, again assuming no uptake by the plants 

I hope that made sense


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