# My Apistogramma Walstad Tank



## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I gave up on the idea of using an acrylic tank after the one I had ordered arrived with great big gash in the lower left hand corner. Have no idea how it got there. I assume it left the seller in usable condition. These things happen:









But, it left me with a bucket full of plants and four Borelli cichlids on their way from a dealer in Alabama. So, I relied the only thing I thought I had any control over - my junk closet. And, from there I pulled out an old war horse from the 1980s, a 30 gallon long glass tank complete with flourescent light hood. Imagine my surprise when the light and ballast still worked!

Not knowing exactly when the fish would arrive, I immediately went to work mineralizing the soil. I did it the quick and dirty way - in the tank itself. Basically, anything that floated after I added about three inches of water got skimmed off (and put into the "dry" storage pot.)

The water was a nice dark chocolate soup at that point so I was rather anxious to put a cap on it. The STS I chose had some welcome and unwelcome surprises. Among the pluses was the fact that it soon became apparent that a 50 pound bag no longer seems the white elephant that it once did six months ago. I must have gone through about 10 pounds just covering the bottom of the tank by an inch. Another pleasant thing about STS is that it feels very soft to the touch when inserting the plants; I could barely tell where it ended and the soil began. The apistos should have no problem sucking it into their mouths.

The bad part was how much dust comes out in the rinsing. It was absolutely soupy and showed little sign of really coming clean. I remembered @dwalstad 's advice about not overdoing the rinsing (some of that dust may have denitrifying potential) and stopped when the soup became a mere broth.

Luckily, I had plenty of floaters on hand. Didn't need to cull them this week. Just transferred half the ones in my porcelain bowl:









Next went the newly sprouted red lotus. It seems happy to be in water:









Next was the lovely but diffident lily that started me on the road to dirt eight months ago but which I hadn't fully seen since the bowl got taken over by lotuses. This was a good move for it since (apparently) it no longer had any pads:










Then, as I continued ferrying water (5 gallons at a time via a bucket) from my bathroom to the tank, i stopped and looked at it and thought to myself "Gosh, if I were a Borelli cichlid, that would look perfect right about there." The water was nearly halfway up the tank. They're bottom swimmers. They're territorial. For them, its' about length and width. Height, not so much. So, I stopped about here:

*Front*:









*Back:







*

I'm agnostic at this point. According to the seller, the fish won't be shipped out before next week. I have time to decide. It looks murky now, but I'm assuming things will settle down in short order, if algae doesn't become a problem.

Ammonia tests out at:









What would you call that? About a 1 ppm?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Go ahead and fill the tank. Greater water volume gives greater chemical and temperature stability. _A. borelli_ are beautiful little fish and go through lots of color changes during the breeding cycle. You will love them!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Okay, then I may have to swap out the bulb for something stronger. I don't know how we got by with 20 watt bulbs back in 1985!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

How long is your bulb? You might be able to find an led tube that fits. A 32-48 watt bulb should work.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> How long is your bulb? You might be able to find an led tube that fits. A 32-48 watt bulb should work.


It's a 24" flourescent. But, I hear you. The higher the water level, the stronger the artificial light should be?


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm jealous! Thinking about starting a tank of this size myself. I really like the rock cave you made - may steal that


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Another bump on the road: my old hood does not take kindly to the new, souped up, fluorescent bulbs; it just kept flickering and emitting a burning smell (indeed, the newer bulb felt much hotter to the touch than the old ones ever did.)
Decided to swap out the entire bulb housing out for a LED catwalk (2100 lumens). Arrives Friday.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Ah, yes, the driver only works for specific wattage. I would go with the future and use LED too.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The new LED light array arrived just a few minutes ago and I am over the moon. Mainly, it's because they fit the glass opening in the old hood like a glove:

*Old Fluorescent Bulb Housing:










New LED Housing:







*

It's been all hands on deck ever since I started filling the tank with water and plants. I'm relying heavily on a basic floor of dwarf sag supplemented over time by an aggressive red tiger lotus spreading roots all over the substrate. For that reason I have held off on getting a similarly fast-growing species like cryptocoryne. But, I'm agnostic about it. Right now, I'm using a couple of big sticks of lucky bamboo as place holders until I can make up my mind. Similarly, I have enlisted one of my biggest guns, a pot of umbrella palms borrowed from my porcelain bowl. And, of course, the _salvinia minima _which were the first to go in_._

It looks as though my ammonia level has been cut in half by adding more water (I had to stop in order not to drown the terrestrials.) I'm seriously thinking about how I can add a pothos plant to the mix. What would you say? Is this about a 0.5 ppm on the ammonia scale?









The water looks 100% better than it did 48 hours ago. Hoping the new lighting will perk the plants up a bit:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Those LED lamps are wonderful. Glad yours fits so nicely.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Checked my nitrite level for the first time since the initial setup:








Wow. That's the purplish vial on the right. I'm giving that somewhere between 0.25 and 0.5 ppms.

The vial in the middle is yesterday's ammonia test and the vial on the left is the ammonia test from 72 hrs. ago.
I guess I should be pleased by the fact that the toxic levels of nitrogen are not off the charts after dumping a load of dirt and water together. OTOH, I am stunned once again by how quickly the beneficial bacteria begin working, as evidenced by the presence of nitrites and nitrates. I'm beginning to wonder whether it was a mistake giving them such a congenial home in so much STS (Safe-T-Sorb?)


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Don't give the bacteria all the credit! I would bet that your plants are doing most of the work.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The _a. borelli _arrived this morning. The email alert yesterday afternoon prompted a round-robin of last-minute attempts to get my water parameters in shape, including a massive purchase of additional lucky bamboo. I even left the room light on all night in a final push to get the houseplants to photosynthesize on overtime.

But by morning, it was clear that nothing but a massive water change would get the ammonia and nitrite levels below 0.25. The only problem was that I didn't have enough conditioned water on hand to really do the trick. And, because I live in New York City, I'd grown accustomed to just letting a pail of tap water sit overnight - no chloramine to worry about - just chlorine which is pretty easy to gas out. So, I didn't have any commercial conditioner on hand.

The plan was to run out and make a quick purchase of the API tap water conditioner (for a lot of reasons I had decided to steer clear of the various "all-in-one", "stress coat" versions) while the fish sat in the tank still inside their plastic bags.

This was my first purchase of fish online and I could not be more nervous or excited:









Each of the four fish was bagged individually and nestled in a styrofoam case. A heating pad was attached to the top case (it was still warm!) The bags themselves were opaque, some kind of new-fangled material that permitted air to pass through from the outside. So, there was no balloon at the top of any of the bags; they just sort of laid there passively.

I anxiously examined each one carefully (the instructions very clearly said to report any dead fish within two hours of arrival) and, I have to admit I was not too hopeful that this had been a good idea. They were all alive - but, barely; they really looked sad and forlorn - and still. You could barely tell they were breathing.

So, I gingerly put each bag into the tank and took off to look for water conditioner.

The trip took longer than I thought it would because my first stop had every kind of water conditioner but the one I was looking for. The second store would entail a trip on the subway.

By the time I got back, I didn't quite know what to expect. The unpacking instructions had said to unloose the fish after 30 minutes. I'd been gone for an hour and a half.

But, lo and behold, the fish had virtually risen from the dead as far as I was concerned. Each one was at the top of the bag, face pressed against the plastic, clearly eager to get out. I quickly dumped a capful of the just purchased liquid into the tank and went about cutting the knot on each bag.

Wow, I am so impressed with these fish. They are so peaceful. They behave more like gouramis than cichlids. Not a sign of territoriality - so far:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Can't wait to see them color up.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Gosh, all that fooling around with lilies and lotuses and wouldn't you know it? My first aquatic flower is from a dwarf sag!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good luck with your new fish! I think Apistogramma are ideal for a 20 gal long. They stay small and have personality.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Yes! And, twenty-four hours later they are indeed showing different personalities. There's definitely an alpha female that rules a particular spot in the tank. It's like watching an underwater soap opera, figuring out who she permits coming into her space and who she doesn't. 

One mystery is when do these guys ever eat? They are so busy scoping each other out they ignore food literally right under their noses. I've tried frozen brine shrimp served on a saucer - and, barely a nibble. A couple of dried shrimp pellets are still lying where they sank an hour ago. I read somewhere that they prefer their food in "desiccated" form. Does this mean, they are _scavengers_?


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

Not to thread crap but this is my male:









I'm curious to see how your shape up as they can be a variance in colour pattern.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Aww, man. What a beauty (and, what a photo!) My males' single biggest feature is the appearance of a "second eye" right above their real eyes; it's very distinct. I'm curious: what temperature do you keep your tank at?


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

During the winter i keep it around 76-77; during the summer it gets to room temp which can be as high as 80.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The siesta lights just came back on and I couldn't resist taking a couple of pictures. This is the set-up nine days after putting in the plants and exactly one day after adding the fish. Water parameters are -0- ammonia, -0- nitrites, 5.0 nitrates ppm:
*Front










Back







*
I'm hoping I can keep those parameters for at least a month before having to do a WC!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The bamboo and the little caves you've made for your fish are nice.
I believe Apistogrammas love frozen bloodworms.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Yes, try frozen blood worms or some type of live food if you can get it. They are slow rather timid eaters and don't complete well with other fish.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, there is some good news on that front: I saw my first fecal dropping yesterday afternoon, from one of the females. I notice also that they spend a lot of time carefully examining and then pecking at the salvinia roots that now carpet the top of the tank. It's funny. Until now, I was only looking at my floaters from the top down due to my porcelain bowl's set-up. But, looking at them from underneath affords me a whole new appreciation of them; it's like an alternate grazing area up there!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I think I've figured it out. There's a distinct lack of bladder snails in this tank, given its size and the amount of decaying vegetation all over it. I think the _borelli _are keeping the snail egg population under control.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Smart fish like Apistogrammas will take advantage of a good protein source like snails and their eggs.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

Yea; the tank i have with hongsloi; well all the pest snails seemed to have vanished. No idea where they went but one day when I was changing the water and trimming plants i noticed they were all gone. The mystery snails seemed untouched. This is my tank btw:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oh, that's a beauty. Is that sag? I would love for my _s. subulata _to grow that tall.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Oh, that's a beauty. Is that sag? I would love for my _s. subulata _to grow that tall.


italia val; to my knowledge dwarf sag does not grow that high. The aquarium is a 29 so 18 inches high - most of those blades are over 30 inches long. Probably should trim it more often.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

One thing I've learned about apistos is that the _sagittaria_ is always greener on the other side:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Could be _Sagittaria graminaea_. Mine looks like this and has leaves about a foot long.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I noticed the divider. Once the plants grow in, it might be enough to naturally divide the tank for them to have their own territory.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Could be _Sagittaria graminaea_. Mine looks like this and has leaves about a foot long.


That would be great. And, it wouldn't surprise me at all that the folks at the fancy aquarium store where I bought them would have mislabeled them. They don't know peat moss when they see it and couldn't tell me the name of the floaters I took home nearly a year ago; someone on this forum had to tell me it was _salvinia._
Here's a better picture of my sag:










mistergreen said:


> I noticed the divider. Once the plants grow in, it might be enough to naturally divide the tank for them to have their own territory.


Yes, I've been meaning to do an update. I can't believe it's only been a week since these fish arrived; they've been through so many changes!

They played nice with each other for all of 48 hours then suddenly everyone was dancing to the tune of the alpha female who clearly had designs on a mate. By the third day, she had a steady dating situation with the alpha male. I was taken by surprise by it all because the wintertime ambient temperature of my Brooklyn apartment is only 74 degrees; I didn't think they would begin all of these courtship rituals without a rise in temperature. But, these guys are like guppies - both sexes!

The frozen bloodworms, btw, really did the trick. Contrary to the directions for feeding, I can let a dime-sized portion linger on the bottom of the tank virtually an entire day and the _borelli_ will gradually consume the whole thing (even though it's a little off putting to see them swimming around for twenty minutes with a quarter inch of red tubing sticking out of their mouths.)

Here's the full tank as it appears this morning. Water parameters holding steady after a week at -0- ppms ammonia and nitrite, 5.0 ppms nitrate:

*Front:*









*Back:







*


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

I don't quite remember the origin of your tiger lotus bulb. Was that an offshoot of another plant? How long did it take yours to sprout? I grabbed a bulb for my setup and I'm interested to watch its progress.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> I don't quite remember the origin of your tiger lotus bulb. Was that an offshoot of another plant? How long did it take yours to sprout? I grabbed a bulb for my setup and I'm interested to watch its progress.


That particular tiger lotus bulb has had quite a journey. It came attached to a dwarf tiger lotus I purchased last August:










Once the dwarf lotus had sent out its first aerial leaf, I transferred it to my porcelain bowl in a tiny k-cup:










Shortly after that, it occurred to me to detach its bulb. You can see the void it left in the bottom k-cup:









And, with that I was able to put the bulb into a dry-start environment, hoping it would go dormant for as long as possible. That was last November:









By January of this year, it was already sprouting new stems:









I transferred it to the new tank about a week later. Almost all the growth you see in the tank today has come in the last two weeks. Hope this helps!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Hard to believe it has only been two weeks since the fish were added to this tank:

*Front










Back







*


Socially, things have quieted down quite a bit. The alpha female has taken up residence in one of the deeper caves and fends off comers of both sexes. This leaves the alpha male and smaller female pretty much on their own. I've added my ancient _anubias barteri, _veteran of nearly eight years of fishkeeping, to the middle of the tank with salutary results: they serve as a strategic speed bump during tank chases, an additional hiding place, and lately, as a potential spawning ground.

The smaller male remains in solitary confinement.

The water is noticeably cloudier than it was two weeks ago, possibly due to bacteria from the uneaten bloodworms. Water parameters of 1.0 ppm ammonia and 5.0 ppm nitrates confirms the need for a partial water change:


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

That anubias is gorgeous! But yikes, 1.0ppm ammonia is pretty high right? Are your plants starting to get established a bit more?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> That anubias is gorgeous! But yikes, 1.0ppm ammonia is pretty high right? Are your plants starting to get established a bit more?


The rooted plants are doing vey well; sending out runners, etc. The red tiger lotus is really gaining in height and spread. I think there's just a lot of decaying matter in the water column at this point.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

That's the downside to nonfiltered tanks (besides plants).


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I look at it this way: I know so many hobbyists with filtered tanks who live in constant fear of their beneficial bacterial colonies crashing. And, once they do, they basically have to start "cycling" all over again - and often lose all their fish in one fell swoop as a result. So, if maintaining a heavily planted tank means I have to do a 50% water change every two weeks, it's worth the peace of mind knowing my fish aren't going to die in the meantime.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your tank is only 3 weeks old! Soil needs 4-6 weeks to settle down (my book, p. 131, Fig VIII-6). Soil will gradually settle down and you can scale back on the water changes.
I think your tank looks good.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

johnwesley0 said:


> I look at it this way: I know so many hobbyists with filtered tanks who live in constant fear of their beneficial bacterial colonies crashing. And, once they do, they basically have to start "cycling" all over again - and often lose all their fish in one fell swoop as a result. So, if maintaining a heavily planted tank means I have to do a 50% water change every two weeks, it's worth the peace of mind knowing my fish aren't going to die in the meantime.


yeah but a heavily planted filtered tank is the best. 
I forgot to turn on my filter overnight a couple of days ago after a water change. The plants saved my absent-mindedness.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Got the ammonia level down to 0.25 with a 50% water change (that's yesterday's result on the left). I'll keep testing daily and do another pwc if it looks like it's trending up again:









Here's a closer look at my Sagittaria:









And my so-called, "hardy" water lily:









I don't really count this particular species of lily as a rooted plant. It is sitting on top of a four-inch-long rhizome and barely has any roots at all. But, you can see how it must have inspired a lot of _art nouveau _lamps and other decorations.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I wound up doing another 50% water change about three days later:









And TBH, I wasn't crazy about the results. But, today when I tested for ammonia again, the color seemed to have actually improved a bit:









I realize that this is all extremely subjective, but I'm hoping this is an indication that the plants are starting to get a grip on the nutrients in the tank. Here's how it looks today:


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Looking good! That's a very solid ammonia reading. Sometimes when it's a bit green my brain tries to trick me into seeing yellow so that I can record the coveted "0" ammonia reading. But not a hint of green there, from what I can see.

Btw, have you had any nitrite spikes? Currently I'm getting 0 ammonia in my new setup, but a TON of nitrite. It was unexpected for me, since my other NPTs didn't have any noticeable nitrite spike after the ammonia was gone. Although I recognize it's a pretty common occurrence in new setups.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Looking good! That's a very solid ammonia reading. Sometimes when it's a bit green my brain tries to trick me into seeing yellow so that I can record the coveted "0" ammonia reading. But not a hint of green there, from what I can see.
> 
> Btw, have you had any nitrite spikes? Currently I'm getting 0 ammonia in my new setup, but a TON of nitrite. It was unexpected for me, since my other NPTs didn't have any noticeable nitrite spike after the ammonia was gone. Although I recognize it's a pretty common occurrence in new setups.


Nitrites looking good:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

jatcar95 said:


> Btw, have you had any nitrite spikes? Currently I'm getting 0 ammonia in my new setup, but a TON of nitrite. It was unexpected for me, since my other NPTs didn't have any noticeable nitrite spike after the ammonia was gone. Although I recognize it's a pretty common occurrence in new setups.


Nitrite is produced not just via nitrification (bio-filtration and tank cycling). It is also produced by a more common reaction that no one talks about-- nitrate respiration (my book, p.65). Many, many species of bacteria use nitrates instead of oxygen under anaerobic conditions for their respiration (breathing). Thus, they produce lots of nitrite under certain conditions. 

In an NPT when you have a fresh soil substrate (anaerobic conditions) and an excess of nitrates, you have perfect conditions for generating nitrites. Watch out for this! Years ago, I didn't realize its importance until my fish came down with miscellaneous diseases. I had fertilized my soil substrates with nitrates, thinking that the nitrates were perfectly safe. But they weren't. Water contained high nitrite levels, which was stressing the fish.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Well, it's official: I think I can report with a fair degree of confidence that my alpha male and female are parents.*
The first clue came in the late morning when I noticed the female was no longer chasing the male away from her cave. Rather she was allowing him to take up a position close to the entry - without actually allowing him all the way in. It was a clear ceding of distance between them.

And beginning this afternoon, I began noticing that she was picking occasionally at the mulm just within sight of the cave entry. I couldn't understand what it was she was finding to eat there that wasn't present the day before or on any other day or week previously. Specks of debris would rise and fall.

Still later, just a little while ago, I noticed that the male was also indulging himself of these particles and, in fact, seemed to be exchanging the tiny bits with the female.

The frustrating thing was that it was impossible to distinguish the tiny particles from ordinary dirt. I could see them rising from the substrate only to sink back down just as quickly as I could spot them. They could easily be responding to the fanning of the adult fins above them.

Until I saw one of them rise - and then change direction all on its own. And then another. And another. They seem to be gaining aerodynamically by the hour.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*UPDATE: The action has shifted to the rear of the tank where the mother seems to have chosen the smooth, comparatively clean surface of the rocks to assemble the fry:*


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

This morning finds the _a. borelli _offspring situation changing once more. I'd forgotten how tiny the fry really are - they're basically only visible through my phone camera lense. Their exact location is only given away by the presence of the adult fish. And by that, I mean all the adults because even the non-parent female has managed to stockpile a group of hatchlings, inches away from the main cave. She divides her time between raiding the cave and guarding her stockpile with every bit of fervor as the original mother. The poor alpha male doesn't quite know what to do. So far, he's the only fish in the tank with time to eat.

I have a nice one-minute video but haven't figured out how to attach it to these APC posts. The "portrait" icon doesn't seem to do it (you can just about see their dot-like eyes against the green of the sag leaves below):


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Btw, have you had any nitrite spikes? Currently I'm getting 0 ammonia in my new setup, but a TON of nitrite. It was unexpected for me, since my other NPTs didn't have any noticeable nitrite spike after the ammonia was gone. Although I recognize it's a pretty common occurrence in new setups.


I owe you an apology. I forgot that I _did _experience a spike in nitrites immediately after my first water change (so, it must have been even higher _before_ the change!) 

There's a snapshot at post #11 above when my nitrite test showed 0.5 ppms.

ETA: That potting soil was also from a very old bag. I'm now convinced that high nitrites due to nitrate respiration is something to expect when using old bags of potting soil that have been sitting around for a while.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

johnwesley0 said:


> This morning finds the _a. borelli _offspring situation changing once more. I'd forgotten how tiny the fry really are - they're basically only visible through my phone camera lense. Their exact location is only given away by the presence of the adult fish. And by that, I mean all the adults because even the non-parent female has managed to stockpile a group of hatchlings, inches away from the main cave. She divides her time between raiding the cave and guarding her stockpile with every bit of fervor as the original mother. The poor alpha male doesn't quite know what to do. So far, he's the only fish in the tank with time to eat.


Cichlids have so much personality!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Cichlids have so much personality!


Boy, you bet! I never know what I'm going to wake up to. This morning I had to drop First Bites baby fry food at two different ends of the tank because it would appear the fry population is now nearly evenly divided between the two females. Even so, I can't tell you how nice it is to have a tank full of small fry and not worry about them being devoured by their parents!

*This is the non-parent female with part of her brood:







*


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*It's been about 10 days since the last water change and the ammonia level is holding steady at -0- ppms*.








This is very encouraging especially since this has been a week of enormous nutrient additions to the water table in the form of baby food!

*Tomorrow will mark the small fry's week-old birthdays and they are only just beginning to become visible to the naked eye, not quite a quarter-inch long*:









I've been adding a lot of First Bites to supplement what I thought was their main diet of algae (I deliberately allowed a bloom to occur by eliminating the siesta break for a couple of days.) Then, yesterday, i came across an old blog discussion of _apistogramma_ fry that seemed to suggest that they can feed off infusoria found on the underside of floating plants. Who knew? I'm thinking of dialing back on the First Bites feedings and monitoring how well the fry forage for themselves.

They can swim fairly well and in schools although they still keep close to one of the two females. The boundaries between the two schools shift by the hour and the alpha male's main job seems to be to keep the females from killing each other. Over and over again, I have observed him throwing himself in the path of one of them and the other in order to prevent an attack. This is as complex an animal society I have ever observed at close range.

Here's the tank at Week 5:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Is it true that one female has adopted part of the alpha female's brood? I had not heard of this type communal living, except with _Lamprologous brichardi_.

Your tank looks like it has plenty of food for the fry. 

Thanks for keeping us posted. What an entertaining tank!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Is it true that one female has adopted part of the alpha female's brood? I had not heard of this type communal living, except with _Lamprologous brichardi_.


I swear. In fact, I think the adoptive mother's brood may be slightly bigger. They spend more time exploring other parts of the tank, away from the alpha male. I poked the top of the floaters once this afternoon and a cloud of fry swam out. They were there grazing, something the adoptive mother has taught them how to do.



dwalstad said:


> Your tank looks like it has plenty of food for the fry.


That's the great thing about a walstad tank: you never know what might be growing in there besides plants and fish! Could the tannins have come in handy as a natural anti-bacterial protecting the eggs?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

This is really a fun tank. Interesting about the adoptive mother. Maybe she is a sister to the other female.
The root area of floaters is probably wonderful grazing. 
As to tannins, I don't know. Maybe they were just good eggs and well cared for by their doting parents.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Day 17 since the last water change and I think the ammonia level continues to be stable*:









I chalk it up in large part to the rooted plants really chugging along. The other day, I tried planting a potassium glucanate tablet underneath my red tiger lotus and could barely push it into the substrate, it was so thick with roots.
And, I've decided to keep it a submersed plant by clipping its pads as they emerge. I wouldn't put it in the same category as sags and vals but certainly, if you are lookin:g for a striking centerpiece that eventually takes over your tank, I'd put it in the same category as a _cryptocoryne:







_

Socially, things change almost hourly. At almost two weeks of age, I can't say that the fry have grown much since I last reported. And, the two females continue to share parenting duties, but with vastly different styles. The adoptive female continues to occupy the upper reaches of the tank with much of her brood hidden in the roots of the floating plants during the active hours of the tank while the alpha female prefers the area around the cave where she spawned. Maybe it's my imagination (or some trick of the lighting) but I can almost detect a difference in the way the two broods are developing. The adoptive mother's fry are a lighter, yellow color while the bottom dwellers are a darker gray. If I didn't know any better, I'd be tempted to say they were sorted according to whether they were male or female fry. But, I don't think there is much sexual dimorphism at that age! I really think it's a difference in what they eat.

One major development since last week has been the transfer of the alpha female into the "bachelor apartment" of the "weaker" male next door. She had spent so much time at the plastic barricade that separated them, tilting fruitlessly with the male that she was losing her brood through the perforated holes of the divider. The more fry she lost, the more frantic her behavior became.

I tried, for all of ten minutes, removing the divider. But, all that did was involve the two males in direct combat. And, much had changed since the last time they were together. If he was human, I would say the weaker male had "put on a few pounds". They were now fairly evenly matched and were actually locking jaws with each other!

But, i wasn't interested in watching an _apisto_ cock fight ,so I lowered the divider as soon as the bachelor male crossed the barrier. But, I hadn't lowered it enough to keep out the alpha female!

So far, an eerie calm has descended over the entire tank. It turns out that the alpha female and bachelor male are fairly compatible with each other. She seems happy to be back with her brood and he knows better than to intrude.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

This is better than tv.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Congratulations! I've been too busy to check in for the last few weeks, so glad I did today.


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## spaquarista (Jun 23, 2021)

Wow, that was fascinating to read! Last time I told someone (my dad) details about my fish's behavior, he replied with "So..how many hours do you spend watching your fish exactly?" And that's why forums exist...


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Ive been swamped with all the stuff that envolves going back to college but have finally gotton a breather to check back in.
This tank really gives me itch for getting my 36gal strightned out this spring once my goldfish it out in his new pond.
The tank looks great! Congrats on the fry! Cichlids have such personalities!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Ive been swamped with all the stuff that envolves going back to college but have finally gotton a breather to check back in.
> This tank really gives me itch for getting my 36gal strightned out this spring once my goldfish it out in his new pond.
> The tank looks great! Congrats on the fry! Cichlids have such personalities!


Yes, it's very exciting to know that the Walstad method can be scaled to meet the needs of larger tanks.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Three weeks since the last water change and the parameters are holding steady at -0- ammonia ppm and <5.0 nitrates: ￼









*Sadly, I have to report that the domestic situation took a dramatic turn for the worse during week three (I'd forgotten that the two events coincided) since the hatching of the a. borelli fry. *

Without going into gory detail, suffice it to say that as the fry grew in curiosity about their surroundings, the further afield they would stray from the respective female's protection. The males simply picked them off one by one. What made it so maddening to watch take place was the fact that there are so many places in the tank where the fry could have hidden on their own. Any livebearer baby would have known to steer clear of a fish big enough to eat them. But, that isn't the _Apistogramma_ style; their curiosity starts at a very young age.

The brood, mostly belonging to the alpha female, had dwindled down to less than ten (from an original spawn of 40) when I left Brooklyn for two days (two days!) And, I guess I picked a poor time to try to transition everyone to dry food. The adults have become absolutely addicted to frozen bloodworms.

I spent most of yesterday afternoon and evening searching for survivors. Finally, around 7PM I spotted one plump fry formerly of the alpha female's brood (identifiable by its dark gray coloring) floating in the open water. I plucked it out with a net and deposited it in the 10 gallon porcelain bowl that is now home to six glo-fish danios. I figured its chances of survival are at least as good with a school of dithering fish who spend all their time at the surface of the bowl as they were in that nest of conniving cichlids!

What would I do differently next time? I think I would swap out the fry with the dithering fish at week two, turning the breeder tank into a community tank. And, keep my fingers crossed.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Thats aweful news. I have never done anything with cichlids, but hopefully things turn out better next time


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Just "rescued" another fry. So, that's two in the porcelain bowl. The alpha female is doing a good job of protecting her last baby, deep in the dwarf sag. Apparently, this is where much of the battle has taken place in the last several days. I am determined to helicopter this guy out of harm's way without tearing the tank apart. It just takes a bit of reconnaissance (and, perhaps less listening to CNN broadcasts...)


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The bright side is you're not going to deal with 40 fighting cichlids.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

"Operation Airlift" is complete! I believe that was the last of the alpha female's brood under her direct supervision. There are now three cichlid fry in the porcelain bowl - and, six glo-fish danios in the formerly all apisto tank:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good luck with the 3 rescued fry. That's much more manageable than 40!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Congrats on your rescues. I have for almost three years now been dead set on Blue Spotted Sunfish and an a currently undecided shoaling native fish for my 36gal...... Now because of your setup I have about 12 tabs open researshing apistos and rams...... all your fault lol


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Congrats on your rescues. I have for almost three years now been dead set on Blue Spotted Sunfish and an a currently undecided shoaling native fish for my 36gal...... Now because of your setup I have about 12 tabs open researshing apistos and rams...... all your fault lol


I love sunfish! The Parks Dept used to stock the pond next door to the house where I grew up with them every year and people used to fish for them (I have no idea whether they have any nutritional value.) But, capturing a few and raising them in a tank has always been a fantasy of mine. So, yeah. Keep us posted.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Holy crap *(pardon my language) *the second female has just laid a batch of her own eggs, this one in plain view of the community tank, This will be interesting:









They're above her head on the left. She has to contort herself in order to inspect them.*


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's been quite a week in Lake Woebegone (any Garrison Keillor fans out there?)
My parameters after four weeks of just topping off are looking pretty good:









That's the ammonia tube just to the right of the paper chart and the nitrate tube next to it. What do you think? Another week?

Mind you, this is a full week after I doubled the bio load by adding six zebra danios to four apisto _borellis._ All ten are what I would call high metabolism fish. And every day involves dumping loads of food into the tank just to make sure both species are getting enough calories.

They make surprisingly good tank mates. They are so different they barely register on each other's radars. The cichlids are extremely territorial but somehow don't consider the danios a threat. The danios - well, who knows what's going on inside_ those _heads?

The amazing thing is that the apistos continue to spawn despite the presence of newcomers; that's how single-minded they are! The The beta female pictured above is still guarding eggs, but of a greatly diminished number. From an initial nest of 40 or 50, I'd say it was no more than 3 or 4 as of yesterday. my hunch is that they were not fertilized very efficiently, given their location, a tight squeeze between a rock and a nylon screen poised above it.

In the meantime, and not to be outdone, the alpha female laid a second batch of eggs and from my observation of her and the beta male (the alpha male is still in solitary confinement) shortly beforehand, I'd say that brood was well fertilized. But, it's what happened _afterward _that convinced me.

True to form, the alpha female immediately started guarding the nest which fortunately was located inside one of the fake caves I had bought for the purpose. But, the male would not take "no" for an answer and rather stubbornly kept trying to gain admission. This led to a series of fights between the parents that threatened to result in one of them seriously crippling the other.

I chalk this up the males having acquired a taste for young apisto protein since the last spawning. So, I removed the cave. As I turned it over shortly before placing it the porcelain bowl that now served as a kind of fry tank, I could see a load of eggs pasted against the roof of the cave.

None of my tanks are being heated at the moment and the thermometers read somewhere in the vicinity of 76 degrees in both of them. So, I'm assuming it will be another week before the eggs begin to hatch - if they hatch at all.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's been 5 weeks since the last water change and - yeah - it's about time:









On the domestic front, things have calmed down considerably since the switch to a community tank. The last spawning was short-lived as the number of eggs disappeared nightly from underneath the nylon net where the beta female guarded them. I removed the netting during an early dawn intervention, before everyone was fully awake and placed it in the fry tank. The female was dazed and confused for the remainder of the day and I surmised that there might have been some hatched fry in the vicinity. But, their odds of surviving the combined appetites of the male _apisto_ and the swarming _danios _were slim.

I thought I would have better luck with the second batch of eggs laid by the alpha female; I had removed them _en masse_ while they were still sticking to the roof of the artificial cave. But, when I looked for them a week later, at the bottom of the porcelain bowl "fry tank", they had all fallen away and looked "spoiled".

Bottom line: I make a poor substitute for an _apistogramma_ mother.

In the meantime, I have had a good look at the danio spawning process which is a marked difference from their territorial tank mates. I found the glo-fish danios swarming around the bottom of the tank this morning. They eat their eggs regardless of whether they are fertilized. They love cornering the roe-filled females in this grove of lucky bamboo stalks and squirming amidst the exposed roots:


















Whether this results in any glo-fish fry will be interesting.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

When I had zebra danios, I always had some babies that grew to adulthood.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Ugh! Disaster has struck.

For the second time in nine months, I have scooped out a fish along with the floaters and tossed it in the trash by accident.

It happened while removing a school of _danios _from what had been a community tank for the past couple of weeks. At some point, the net must have caught one of the female _a. borellis _and covered it with frogbit. I didn't notice she was missing until it was too late. [NOTE TO SELF: *Remove all floaters before chasing after fish with a net - the floaters will grow back - the fish will not*.]

The reason for the transfer was actually some good news: the alpha female is nesting again and if she is half the parent she was the first time around, I should have a good number of fry soon.

I've decided to give the newborns a greater chance at survival by removing most of the adult fish to the porcelain bowl. Only the mother and the alpha male remain - _he _is still behind a divider.

At the other end of the tank I've installed another divider and this time around I'm using the perforated holes to my advantage, as a way for the fry to find safety as the parental bond begins to fade. Of course, some of them will wander in the other direction and into the male's "bachelor pad". But, I'm not going to beat myself up over that.

I figure I can handle about 10 maturing fry, if all works according to plan.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Breaking News!

The missing female a. borelli has been found. *She was dumped into the porcelain bowl along with a netful of danios yesterday. She was very hard to spot until the addition of the borelli beta male coaxed her out of hiding at the time of the above posting. Whew! The Note to Self still holds, however.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

So glad you recovered your female. I know the feeling...

Yesterday, I put 3 of my female yellow shrimp into a bowl (new setup but 75% of their home tank's water), to be a nursery for the babies. (After 11 mos. in a 10 gal devoted to them, I'm still having trouble getting these yellows going.) This morning I found all three lying on their backs in a state of paralysis. Surely dead. But after seeing one whisker move, I put them in a breeding trap back in their home tank. One shrimp died but two recovered and look like they are doing okay.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Good News!*

I came back from a short trip to find the alpha female out and about and upon very close examination I could see a constellation of fry all around her. Judging by their size and swimming ability, I'd say they were at least four days old. They must have hatched right after I left town.

Put it this way, they were old enough for some to have already found their way into the bachelor pad of the alpha male. The two adults share the same feeding area and I realize now that it was a mistake to try to feed them with the same automatic feeder since that is where the mother and her brood spend most of their time.

And, though I had said I wouldn't beat myself up for any fry cannibalism, it was too early for me to bear it. So, I swapped out the male and let him have another bachelor pad (and his own feeder) at the other end of the tank.

These babies are quite nice sized. I've read elsewhere that at cooler temperatures they take longer to hatch and thus are more fully developed when they do so. These guys were incubating for nearly two weeks:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

What do the fry feed on?
I ordered some Blue Gularis Killifish eggs from Europe. I'm growing paramecium in preparation for the fry.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> What do the fry feed on?
> I ordered some Blue Gularis Killifish eggs from Europe. I'm growing paramecium in preparation for the fry.


Excellent question! It seems to depend on who's doing the parenting. The other female, the one that is in the porcelain bowl now, kept her adopted brood close to the surface where they were able to find something in the biofilm between and beneath all the floaters. The alpha female is just the opposite; she is a bottom feeder and her brood - from what I can gather from different websites - is able to find _infusoria_ in amongst the mulm that now covers everything. Another reason to stop vacuuming your gravel!


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

You can always inject bbs to their delight.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jake37 said:


> You can always inject bbs to their delight.


Gosh, I haven't hatched baby brine shrimp (BBS) since I was in high school. LOL. It might be fun to revisit the process! IIRC, they're sold with the brine premeasured by the package and you just throw everything into some water?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I raise moina daphnia. They're the size of BBS.

Packages of BBS with salt, you just add water. You can buy only BBS eggs. You need to add rock/aquarium salt.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> I raise moina daphnia. They're the size of BBS.
> 
> Packages of BBS with salt, you just add water. You can buy only BBS eggs. You need to add rock/aquarium salt.


How do you raise moina daphnia?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

In a 10G tub or tank. No heater is needed with a little bubbler. I feed daily with a mixture of water, spirulina, rice flour, and yeast. I keep a small culture of green mulm and moina in a bottle under a light in case the 10G crashes. I don't feed the bottle. A few will live indefinitely off what grows from the green mulm. There are diatom algae in the green mulm.

I keep snails in the 10G to clean up leftover food. They will also produce the green mulm.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Gosh, I haven't hatched baby brine shrimp (BBS) since I was in high school. LOL. It might be fun to revisit the process! IIRC, they're sold with the brine premeasured by the package and you just throw everything into some water?


For bbs in small quantity i use this:








Amazon.com : Brine Shrimp Hatchery Dish (Eggs Sold Separately.) : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Brine Shrimp Hatchery Dish (Eggs Sold Separately.) : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com




-
it comes with enough shrimp eggs for a year and it avoids having to strain the eggs. Still it is kind of annoying since you have to re-hatch them every few days since the usefulness of baby brine shrimp is relatively short.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm marking today as one week since these fry hatched - even though I wasn't there when it happened. These last few days have brought back very pleasant memories of when this tank was only a month old and the full personalities of these highly intelligent fish really revealed themselves for the first time. This latest spawn not only retraces the beginnings of the tank back when I thought I would have all summer to figure out how to breed them but they seem even more precocious than the first spawn.

Some of them are already exploring distant parts of the tank on their own and that is something I had not observed until the third week with the other hatchlings. The bulk still school around the alpha female. But, every time she engages in shadow-boxing with the alpha male who is safe behind a plastic divider, she loses some of her brood through the perforation. I observed this phenomenon in the first spawn - the fry trust both parents.

For this reason, I pulled the trigger a little earlier than I expected: I lured the mother to the far end of the tank and lowered a divider fast behind her. My heart broke a little seeing the little guys gather at the divider, trying to follow their mother. I'm betting that most of them will find their way through the perforation. The important thing is that they will be far away from the alpha male:









ETA: I also started adding a pinch of First Bites(TM) to the automatic feeder while I ponder the BBS issue. I'm really taken with the new technology (Thank you, @jake37 !) I'm just not sure If I can live with another water receptacle. It's going to take some rearranging. Possibly swapping a potted houseplant for a bbs hatchery dish?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Breaking News:*

In my paranoia around saving as many _apisto_ babies from predation as possibe, I couldn't help but notice a small group of fry that were hanging out at the surface and who didn't seem overly concerned with where either of their parents were. Upon closer examination, they appear... kind of..._orange ... _when viewed from the top. Could I have spotted the elusive but much heralded, glo-fish _zebra danio _"orphans"?


















(Apologies for the poor picture quality. These particular fry are barely visible to the naked eye and thus an indication that they belong to a different brood from the _apistogramma borelli_)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, among the lessons learned during this latest spawning cycle has been just how difficult it is to raise two different species of fry in the same tank! The three or possibly four glo-fish danio babies I spotted last week gradually dwindled over the space of the days that followed. This despite being behind a plastic/acrylic divider. They were so tiny, about the size of an exceptionally short eyelash, that I hypothesize they drifted, one by one, through the divider's perforation into the tank where the _apistogramma_ male was located. There, the fry's distinctive orange coloration and tendency to stay near the water line would have made them easy targets.

Also, not to beat myself up too hard. It's amazing that any of the danio eggs hatched in that water. The ambient temperature never rose above 74 degrees Fahrenheit.

The fate of the baby _danios_ contrasts with that of the surviving _apisto_ _borelli_ fry. At the end of two weeks, the latter have doubled in size and are nearly big enough to make it difficult for them to fit through most of the divider perforation. I think we are down to a basic school of 20 fry; the rest of an initial spawn of 50 were lost to predation. The plucky alpha female continues to treat them with deference; she is careful not to confuse them with food when the dry flakes drift down from the automatic feeder. And, the babies themselves have developed some defensive moves. When the adult fish shadow box, as they frequently do, the fry are instantly repelled by the male's proximity. A week ago they would have been attracted by it.

All in all, I have to say that with all but two of the adult fish that I own located in a different tank, this has been the most peaceful the apistogramma tank has been since the initial 48 hours of the _borelli_'s arrival. The alpha male is resplendent in his shimmering purple coloration and has adjusted to life back in the bachelor pad. The alpha female is like watching a clucking hen scratching and plucking in her pen. Only the vast middle of the tank is empty.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

One thing to keep in mind; the borelli is willing to help care for their frys; but no one is going to help danio..... and yes generally speaking borelli are fairly peaceful and you can in fact frequently make a colony of them.... which is different than most other commonly available species of apisto - for example nijjensi expect around 1 to 2 meter of territory (per male).



johnwesley0 said:


> Well, among the lessons learned during this latest spawning cycle has been just how difficult it is to raise two different species of fry in the same tank! The three or possibly four glo-fish danio babies I spotted last week gradually dwindled over the space of the days that followed. This despite being behind a plastic/acrylic divider. They were so tiny, about the size of an exceptionally short eyelash, that I hypothesize they drifted, one by one, through the divider's perforation into the tank where the _apistogramma_ male was located. There, the fry's distinctive orange coloration and tendency to stay near the water line would have made them easy targets.
> 
> Also, not to beat myself up too hard. It's amazing that any of the danio eggs hatched in that water. The ambient temperature never rose above 74 degrees Fahrenheit.
> 
> ...


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Here's a snapshot of the tank as it appears now. I've been a little indulgent with the algae because TBH I'm still not sure what the little guys are feeding on. A little bit of everything, I suspect:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I would try feeding the fry with powder fry food since they're older now.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> I would try feeding the fry with powder fry food since they're older now.


Latest baby pictures:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looks like you're got a *perfect *fish breeding tank!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's been a week of musical chairs in the apisto tank. The fry are three weeks old and I was extremely mindful of the fact that it was at this stage in their development that the last spawn disappeared over one weekend. The tank was divided into three parts with the adults at opposite ends to avoid shadow boxing and with the vast middle portion unoccupied. 

Things seemed pretty chill for the most part. When not preoccupied by mating and staking out territory the two adult _a. borelli_ remind me of nothing so much as bettas, small, super intelligent fish who seem to do very well in solitary confinement. The alpha male continued to attract a half-dozen or so fry in his orbit and seemed content with reating them as protein on the hoof. He didn't necessarily hunt them down but every once in a while would zero in on one, if they happened to catch his eye for some reason. 

The alpha female was far more subtle. I never spotted her making an aggressive move toward any of the fry in her portion of the tank. And, yet...it was almost as if she _knew i was watching her. _

Two days ago, while trying to estimate how many fry were left in the female's purview, I could only spot ten which was about half the number of the week before. So, I decided it was time to move the mother to the community tank.

But, imagine my dismay when later that evening I tried counting the fry again and could not find a single one. *That portion of the tank was completely deserted. *I went to bed convinced the alpha female had somehow gone on a rampage before I could catch her and transfer her.

But by the next morning, it was clear what had happened. In the hours after the removal of the female parent, the entire spawn had made its way clear across the length of the breeding tank and into the alpha male's "bachelor pad". And, it wasn't so much the fact that they'd done it that amazed me so much as the fact that it all happened so surreptitiously. They had managed to evade my observation largely by keeping close to the tank's substrate, hidden by the thick _sag subulata _and finding places along the edges of the divider to squeeze through_._ 

I weighed the relative cost/benefits of a) removing the fry one by one, b) leaving them where they were or c) removing the adult male.

Well, I had very few options with regard to moving the alpha male. I couldn't put him in the community tank because there was already one male apisto there and one more would be inviting mayhem. And, yet I wasn't ready to see my entire spawn used as fish food.

So, I put the adult male at the other end of the breeder tank, the one recently vacated by the alpha female and hoped that it would take a little while longer before the fry realized where he was.

And, that's where things stand this morning. There are, at present, close to 20 fry in the former bachelor pad. In the day and a half that they have been there, it is clear that some of them are now too big to squeeze back through the acrylic dividers as I continue to feed them dry food. *Some *_*hydrated baby brine ship should be arriving today *_and that should help fatten them up, too.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

johnwesley0 said:


> There are, at present, close to 20 fry in the former bachelor pad. In the day and a half that they have been there, it is clear that some of them are now too big to squeeze back through the acrylic dividers as I continue to feed them dry food. *Some *_*hydrated baby brine ship should be arriving today *_and that should help fatten them up, too.


For years I have been hatching brine shrimp eggs and re-using the old shrimp water. A month ago I tried doing it without intense overhead light. I mistakenly thought that I might be able to get by without the light. (The jars do get shaded window light.) Got a couple good hatches with the same saltwater, then downhill completely. Water filled with bacteria and became cloudy and shrimp would not hatch. So I threw out the salt water, cleaned the jars and started over with the my old setup-- described in my article. Pleased to say, I'm now back in business re-using same old saltwater again and again as in the past--for 6 months or more. The only difference is the overhead light (13 watt CFL bulb) under a clamp light fixture (photo)

I feed the shrimp bottles with powdered spirulina algae for the first week to crank up the ecosystem. Two weeks in, the water is clear but now has turned green. It contains green water algae and I've stopped feeding the brine shrimp. I do partial harvests for my baby guppies starting at 24-36 hours after adding the eggs. Just siphon out part of the water. Harvesting depends on temperature and how the shrimp are hatching. I complete harvests in about 72 hours, because the bottle ecosystems are too populated for prolonged cultivation and the shrimp start dying, which overloads bottles with nutrients.

I believe that the algae not only feeds the shrimp but maintains safe oxygen levels and removes ammonia and other wastes. This brine shrimp ecosystem duplicates the aquarium ecosystem. Same concept. Water purification by plants and algae allows long-term maintenance of healthy animals without water changes. The harvesting dishes are cute, but they require that you change the water and clean the dish after each use. I prefer my ecosystem method using algae. It requires a little tinkering, but it works very well.

Article on hatching brine shrimp is on my website Planted Aquariums


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's been a frustrating week at the apisto tank. I thought I'd had things under some semblance of control with the month old fry at one end of the tank and the sole adult on the other. But, I've never encountered baby fish so anxious to be eaten. Every day I would see five or six of them in the "new and improved" bachelor pad and fewer and fewer of them in "the nursery". Mind you, they are not drifting through the divider's spaces. I've seen them wriggle and squeeze their way through the sides where the fit is not air tight (and under most circumstances would not have to be!) They then have to repeat the same struggle in order to gain entry to the alpha male's lair.

The nursery is now eerily quiet. With one exception.

While searching for a missing _danio_ in the porcelain bowl (alas, not even a trace of a corpse was ever found),* I saw something dart by among the red tiger lotus leaves*. It almost scared me because it was so unexpected. From above it had looked like another _danio, _sort of narrow and swift. But, it was gray. The next time I saw it, it became clear what I was looking at.

*It was one of the last survivors of the first apisto spawn, one of three fry I had "helicoptered" out of harm's way when it had become clear they were being stalked by the adults in the tank. By my estimation, he was now 2 and a half months old!*

What a sight for sore eyes. How he managed to evade predation even after I had transferred nearly all the adult fish into the porcelain bowl, I'll never know. But, at nearly a half-inch in length, I can almost tell his gender; he very much exhibits the shape and behavior of *a male *_*a. borelli.*_

It took a while (and, the temporary imprisonment of the other adult male), but I was finally able to coax it into a net and into the nursery where, as far as I can tell, he is the sole occupant. I've named him "Jumbo" as he is about twice the size of his would-be younger siblings.

Jumbo's survival does raise hopes that _some apisto _will reach at least the juvenile stage on their own. And, maybe that's the natural order of things: a large spawn, heavy predation and then a prized few that can be raised as new seed corn - as it were.

It's also a confirmation of "Walstad tanks" great value as breeder tanks. Jumbo was able to feed himself for the past two months with no help from me and just on the fauna that exists in a heavily planted tank.


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## Cawafuoshi (Mar 24, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> I gave up on the idea of using an acrylic tank after the one I had ordered arrived with great big gash in the lower left hand corner. Have no idea how it got there. I assume it left the seller in usable condition. These things happen:
> View attachment 74498


Just when I started considering looking into acrylic tanks....

I agree, these things happen.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Cawafuoshi said:


> Just when I started considering looking into acrylic tanks....
> 
> I agree, these things happen.


But, for the fact that I needed a tank right away, I would have ordered another one. Glass tanks are so darned heavy, especially when you live in an apartment building.


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## Cawafuoshi (Mar 24, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> But, for the fact that I needed a tank right away, I would have ordered another one. Glass tanks are so darned heavy, especially when you live in an apartment building.


I am also always subconsciously fearing they might break or leak while fiddling inside or outside during maintenance.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

ETA: I also let the zebra danios back into the tank in order to spawn once again - which they did with the same gusto as a month ago. Perhaps, I will have better luck raising glo-fish even though I won't be able to sell them:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I've just come back from a holiday week away from the tanks and I was pleasantly surprised to find no untimely deaths while I was away. Everything was automated, the lighting, the feedings (all dry food) and I discovered three more _apistogramma_ fry I had not been aware of. All seem to be thriving on dry food. The giant among them continues to be "Jumbo", the sole survivor of the alpha female's first spawning. He is fast approaching the size of a small guppy and has apparently forced his way into the middle section of the tank where there is the most room to roam. He has at least two younger sibling companions there. There are two other youngsters in the nursery section from the last spawn and who seem content to stay there. And, there is a little one that has figured out how to survive close proximity with the alpha male in the bachelor pad.

That's six that I was able to identify during the siesta period. There are probably a few more. The _sagittaria subulata _have evolved into a perfect cover plant for wayward baby fry. I would have to dismantle the entire tank in order to chase every one of them down and I'm thinking the plants present a similar sort of protection against the alpha male.

All of this is perhaps my long-winded way of saying, other than reading up on Diana's baby brine shrimp article, I am done playing helicopter parent.

ETA: I was also hoping to find some zebra danio fry by now, especially as the weather has warmed quite a bit more than the last spawning. But, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were falling prey to Jumbo who is small enough to ferret out the eggs where he can find them and big enough be a predator on his own.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Jumbo on the prowl:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Survivors like him/her will be tough and smart.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's been an extremely quiet week in _apisto land_. One adult male and two adult females make up one community tank (a large Chinese porcelain bowl) along with 5 zebra danios. Despite the loss of one of the danios a couple of weeks ago, they seem to get along peacefully. Feeding time is pretty competitive with the danios winning most matches.

I try to make sure that the automatic feeder dumps enough dry food for the apistos to get a few bites, three times a day. I think they like the dark cave-like conditions of the bowl. And, much like their experience in the 30 gallon long glass tank, the bladder snail population has plummeted.

Which brings me to the "breeder" tank. A reminder: this was the original destination tank for the two adult males and two adult females. It became a breeder tank when after several spawnings it became obvious that there's a clear time limit beyond which it becomes unwise to keep the fry and adults together. I'd say after about three weeks the parenting instinct begins to wane and the fry basically become cattle.

And yet, it is SO clear that those first three weeks together with adults make a great deal of difference in the baby apisto's development. Compared to zebra danio fry, the apistos are fully capable of foraging for food on their own, probably by Week Two. In fact, I have tried every kind of inert baby food I can think of - First Bites(TM), hydrated BBS, dried daphnia - and nothing excites them. Yet they seem to be ... okay. I read Diana's article on hatching BBS eggs and it seems fairly straightforward, especially for the small number of fry that I have. I will try that next.

The breeding tank is currently divided into three sections, mainly because I have no other place to put the alpha adult male, Thirty-six inches of tank length are apparently not enough to deter a bully from making life miserable for another male apisto. He gets along well with the danios, but the presence of another apisto is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. The internet warns of this sort of behavior occurring during _spawning_ periods. What the internet doesn't tell you is that for this particular species, the _a. borelli, _the spawning period never stops. *Courtship began 48 hours after they were released into the tank and at no time did the ambient temperature rise above 75F.*

Stlll, it's hard to hold hard feelings against the alpha male. He is an attractive pet in his own right. He has the personality of a dog in that he follows me around the room, knowing, if he gets my attention that I will squeeze out an extra meal from the automatic feeder. And, as I implied before, his spawning colors of deep purple and iridescent blue highlights are on display nearly all the time.

As far as I can tell, there are approximately 2-3 fry in each section of the tank. So, my estimate of perhaps 10 fry gaining enough bulk to make it difficult for them to squeeze into the "bachelor apartment" was not far off the mark.

The tank is a visual mess. There is green algae on the glass but nothing that can't be scraped off every week or so. I deliberately maintain a carpet of floaters through which I have to poke holes with plastic tubes attached in circles just to sprinkle food through and to let in some light. I leave it this way because every spot in the tank represents a potential food source for the fry.
This is the only angle I'm not embarrassed to show:









*Between the light bio-load and the preponderance of floaters and terrestrial plants I invested in early in the tank's design, I have managed to maintain -0- ammonia ppm and 2.5 nitrate ppm for the last two months:*









These are the nitrate results for both the porcelain bowl and the breeder tank.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for the documentation. You've got a good grip now on how plants purifies the water. Love those bamboo plants!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

*Breaking News: Diana's No-Fuss No-Muss one cup of water and a pinch of brine shrimp eggs recipe works like a charm*. The eggs arrived fairly late yesterday evening, so they really didn't start hatching until a couple of hours ago. I had about 20 minutes before the tank lights automatically switched off in order to pour the hatched _naupili_ through a cloth sieve, rinse them off and dip them into the tank. I'm sure there were a lot of hatched shells mixed in there but overall, I could see a small red cloud that occasionally revealed bouncing bodies within it. It immediately drew the attention of _apisto _fry that happened by.

I attached the clip-on LED lights I had used to hatch the BBS and treated the fry to a rare after bedtime feed.

The narrowly focused beam seemed to concentrate the _naupili_ which only attracted more fry. Frankly, it was the first time in months I had seen as many as six of the apistos gathered at the same time, including "Jumbo":

















Tomorrow morning I will start with a fresh cup of salted water and start the process again.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Perfect! Baby fish just love nauplii. And it is so good for them. My 100+ baby guppies that won't eat much else the first week.
For convenience, I've started harvesting the whole bottle. I put harvested shrimp in a shallow container with a little tapwater. I feed fish half in the morning and refrigerate the rest for an afternoon feeding. The refrigerated shrimp are still alive and--unlike frozen shrimp-- don't lose the their food value.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Perfect! Baby fish just love nauplii. And it is so good for them. My 100+ baby guppies that won't eat much else the first week.
> For convenience, I've started harvesting the whole bottle. I put harvested shrimp in a shallow container with a little tapwater. I feed fish half in the morning and refrigerate the rest for an afternoon feeding. The refrigerated shrimp are still alive and--unlike frozen shrimp-- don't lose the their food value.


Yes! Refrigeration definitely helps stretch one harvest into two meals. I rotate two shallow cereal bowls daily now, one to harvest and the other with your recipe "resting" for 24 hours. No cleaning was necessary:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looks good! 
Hatching a small amount at a time in shallow bowls like you are doing is absolutely perfect for feeding a few precious fish. Easy as pie! There are so many ways to do it that are easier and that work better than the complicated methods you see on the Internet. 
I found hatching brine shrimp to be absolutely captivating. And I'm sure your baby fish are thrilled to have fresh shrimp on the menu!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I made The Swap this morning and it went without a hitch. In fact, the one unanticipated moment turned out to be a pleasant surprise. To recap, I began to realize that with two fatalities over the space of six weeks that the porcelain bowl was probably overstocked and that the most sensible way to fix it was to move the 5 remaining danios to the _apisto_ tank, in effect making it a community tank. And, since the latest death involved an _apistogramma_ male, it opened up the way for the alpha male to take its place in the bowl.

I thought that would leave no adult _apistos _in the glass "community tank" and I rather gleefully removed the last remaining plastic divider, leaving the 30 gallon long tank one continuous body of water for the first time in six months.

But, as has happened so often in my adventures with these fish, one of the females got caught in the net along with the danios _and I had no idea. _The female apistos are comparatively dull colored, especially compared to the glo-fish and look just like a piece of _salvinia _caught up in the net. *It's only for the grace of G-d that she managed to get plopped out along with the danios.*

So, you can imagine my surprise when I caught her out the corner of my eye being pursued by Jumbo! The two have been inseparable. I think it is adorable. It has been clear for weeks that he has little patience with his younger siblings, often chasing them out of the way at meal times. But, with the adult female he seems to have found a peer, or perhaps even, a "mother figure":

































How the tank appears today:
Front:









Back:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Of course, it only took one day before I realized that having the alpha female in the community tank went against one of my stated goals, i.e., to save a few possible _danio _fry. It will be a difficult enough task with 8 or 9 juvie _apistos _honing their hunting skills. Back into the porcelain bowl she went this morning where the sole surviving male can now entertain two mates.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

You can get various 'fry' containers that will hang in the main tank and therefore use the aquarium's filtration. I think the one i like best is ziss; i have to look it up if you are interested.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jake37 said:


> You can get various 'fry' containers that will hang in the main tank and therefore use the aquarium's filtration. I think the one i like best is ziss; i have to look it up if you are interested.


I would appreciate that very much. As I have all your previous comments.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

ziss bl-3 is the one i have. This one fits in side the tank; marina also have some that hang on the outside of the tank and use a bubbler to cycle the water through them - they come in different size - the small one is probably suitable for danio fry - the medium i used for some apisto - they are just called marina breeding box. I think ken's fish had them cheap - let me check; no he is sold out. They have them on ebay - you do not want the large one - it is quite large - the medium is probably most flexible.
-
aquarium co-op has the ziss bl-3T (not sure what changes between the 3 and T). The bl-2 is just an older model not a smaller version.
-
Anyway both the marina and ziss work pretty well - the marina hangs outside so the flow is slower - i used the bl-3 with angels fry which are much more sensitive but of course it takes up bit of tank space since it was inside the tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I looked it up on Amazon. A cunning device. Seems ideal for egg-layers because it has a ready-made channel through which to connect an air hose during the incubation period. And of course, it requires no extra water. I notice on one model there's an extra bit of grating on the bottom. Would that be for eggs to fall through during spawning?


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

Are you looking at the marina or the ziss? The marina sits outside the tank and the ziss is actually inside the tank.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jake37 said:


> Are you looking at the marina or the ziss? The marina sits outside the tank and the ziss is actually inside the tank.


Ah, the ziss.


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Ah, the ziss.


The holes in the bottom allows a little debris to escape down - the air connection allows for some circulation; it isn't really targeted at tumbling eggs; ziss does sell an egg tumbler but i've not used it.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jake37 said:


> The holes in the bottom allows a little debris to escape down - the air connection allows for some circulation; it isn't really targeted at tumbling eggs; ziss does sell an egg tumbler but i've not used it.


Well, here are my thoughts. Both the zisser and the marina breeder boxes are a step in the right direction as far as egg-layers are concerned; their fry tend to be smaller than livebearers (at least in my experience) and are susceptible to escaping the perforation that permit standard "floating" devices to stay inside the parental tank. OTOH, I wouldn't dream of trying to pack 50 newly hatched fry of any variety into anything that size for more than a couple of weeks after which one would still be faced with the question of what to do with 50 newborn baby fish? In my particular case some sort of "box" might have made a more stylish bachelor pad than the one I was able to provide for the adult alpha male.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

A report back on The Swap. I think this will work. The _apisto _juvies are smart and nimble and are able to hold their own against the mild-mannered _danios_. I have a funny feeling that this is the "fun" stage in their development. They already have plenty of personality and their antics fall into the category of "...and no one was hurt."

The biggest challenge comes at feeding time when it is necessary to divert the adults with a feeding ring at one end of the tank while I dunk BBS at the other. That works for about a minute. Then, it's a free-for-all between the adult glo-fish and the juvies.

I think it will be okay. I do notice now that the juvies congregate in one spot (as opposed to foraging far afield from each other) that some of them are much bigger than the others, as much as 2xs. I don't know whether that is due to differences in nutrition or the beginning of sexual dimorphism. Only time will tell.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The juvies are starting to look and act like miniature adults:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Not much has changed in the last month. This has clearly become my favorite tank. The glo-fish love it. The juvenile _a. borelli _are no longer in hiding and occupy all levels of the tank. Feeding time is a delight, watching the "teen-agers" stand their ground against the far more gigantic adults.

Jumbo, the oldest at six months is not much bigger than his next-in-line siblings most of whom have reached a half-inch in length. There are also a couple that I call, "the twins" who are considerably smaller, barely a quarter of an inch long who come out only at feeding time. For a long time, I wondered whether they were zebra fish fry but I doubt that they are. They look and behave like apistos and their siblings treat them as such - by bullying them. My latest theory is that they are the survivors of a hidden spawn that I just did not know about.

*Which leads me to my next subject: these kids are ready to rock and roll. They constantly *_*present *_*to each other (if you know what I mean) although, it is hard to tell whether they are being aggressive or are courting each other. Only they can tell which of them is male or female at this point. Nevertheless, it is hard to believe that these tiny little things will eventually grow to the size of their parents. They seem lightyears removed from the alpha male now occupying my porcelain bowl.*


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

As noted in previous posts, I'm not the greatest "tank keeper". I hate scraping algae off the walls of my tanks and that reluctance was what prompted me to maintain a porcelain fishbowl with no artificial lighting for many years. This glass tank, however, presented special challenges in that I deliberately made it visible from all four sides, i.e., there's nothing like a blacked-out background to filter natural sunlight.

This has led the tank to be pretty much at the mercy of seasonal changes in the northern hemisphere angle of the sun. So, I was algae-free for most of the Spring only to find myself having to wipe down the inside walls of the glass more and more frequently as Summer approached. At one point I had all but given up trying to keep up with it and chalked it up to food for the newly hatched fry (which I believe it was to some extent.)

Now, this may just be the overture to another seasonal change, but I could not help but notice that ever since I added a few more Wonder Shells to the tank about a month ago, that the bladder snail population has exploded. The result is an update photo I don't mind sharing:

This is the Apistogramma tank after six months:


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

What size is the tank? Borelli are among the more passive species of apistogramma and people do keep colonies of them but i think the small aquarium suitable is 20 long with a 40B being better. A 10 or 15 or 20 high would be too small for a colony.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jake37 said:


> What size is the tank? Borelli are among the more passive species of apistogramma and people do keep colonies of them but i think the small aquarium suitable is 20 long with a 40B being better. A 10 or 15 or 20 high would be too small for a colony.


It's a thirty gallon long. And the adults got along for all of 48 hours. What do you do during mating periods?


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## jake37 (Mar 18, 2021)

Stay away from an angry female


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jake37 said:


> Stay away from an angry female


Ah. So true.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

One tiny update: As much as I like watching my glo-fish zebra danios up close and personal, I decided they were too important as CO2 producers in the porcelain bowl which has been updated to include a bunch of dwarf sag (for the past 18 months and much to my embarrassment, I'd had no oxygenators in the bowl!)

The move also makes feeding the seven (by my count) remaining juvies much simpler as I no longer have to play hide and seek with the baby brine shrimp at feeding time.

Here's a six-month-old "Jumbo" who is just shy of an inch long and looking very adult in these photos:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The _sag subulata_ has has resumed melting while basically every other plant with an aerial advantage is thriving. My first hypothesis was that there was a lack of nutrients in the water column. And yet, testing this morning showed an ammonia level of 0.5!

This set off all sorts of alarm bells as that level of ammonia is toxic for young fish. The water had not been changed in 5 months and was a further reminder that _salvinia, frogbit _and the like become much less efficient at removing nutrients even as they appear to have carpeted the entire surface of the water. The nitrate level is somewhere between yellow and orange on the API master kit chart, so I'm splitting the difference and putting it at 2.5ppm.

Based on those two readings (high ammonia; relatively low nitrates), it would appear that the plants are really in charge of the nitrification process in this particular tank.

So. It's a 50% water change this morning which will also give me an opportunity to give the algae a good scrubbing.

Really leaning toward purchasing that new light with the dimmer. I'd been using the _salvinia _to regulate the intensity of the light. But, obviously, that's not a good idea.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Melting plants will raise ammonia. I'd remove the dead plants.
Maybe the Sag is not getting enough light since the floaters are blocking it? Sag is a weed, I've never had it die unless issue with low light.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

You have a point. Because the sag was so easy to grow in the beginning, I just assumed I had somehow stumbled upon the ideal conditions for it (low light and soft water.) But as you suggest, it may have just been a matter of time before said conditions started exacting a toll.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Could the soil be getting depleted? You could try adding a root tab by the sag to see if it perks up.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

jatcar95 said:


> Could the soil be getting depleted? You could try adding a root tab by the sag to see if it perks up.


That was my pet theory for a while. And a root tab a week or so ago did seem to stabilize things. I think it's "a little bit of this and a little bit of that" all combining to slow down the _sag _even while ammonia was building up in the water column. Making sure the _spangles, frogbit, salvinia_ - whatever you want to call them - don't run out of room to grow also seems key for my tanks.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

johnwesley0 said:


> That was my pet theory for a while. And a root tab a week or so ago did seem to stabilize things. I think it's "a little bit of this and a little bit of that" all combining to slow down the _sag _even while ammonia was building up in the water column. Making sure the _spangles, frogbit, salvinia_ - whatever you want to call them - don't run out of room to grow also seems key for my tanks.


I'm not sure how much sag gets it's nutrients from the water column, so my thinking is even if there is nitrogen available there it might be constrained by limited soil nutrients.

And yeah, floaters definitely seem to grow to fit the space they're given. Keeping on top of removing them is probably key to ensuring they are taking up max nutrients.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Earlier Quotes: _Maybe the Sag is not getting enough light since the floaters are blocking it? Sag is a weed, I've never had it die unless issue with low light. 
Because the sag was so easy to grow in the beginning, I just assumed I had somehow stumbled upon the ideal conditions for it (low light and soft water.) _

I just stumbled across a recent scientific reference listing _Sagittaria subulata_ as a species unable to use bicarbonates. That would make it very uncompetitive under certain conditions. 

For example, should the tanks environment have changed (soil releasing less CO2 and an increased plant biomass), Sag could easily start to fade out. Plants that can use both bicarbonates and CO2 would gain ground against obligate CO2 users like _Sagittaria subulata._


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Earlier Quotes: _Maybe the Sag is not getting enough light since the floaters are blocking it? Sag is a weed, I've never had it die unless issue with low light.
> Because the sag was so easy to grow in the beginning, I just assumed I had somehow stumbled upon the ideal conditions for it (low light and soft water.) _
> 
> I just stumbled across a recent scientific reference listing _Sagittaria subulata_ as a species unable to use bicarbonates. That would make it very uncompetitive under certain conditions.
> ...


Definitely seems like that would give other plants a competitive advantage. In my personal experience I've never had issues w/ sag though - I added it late to my 6g tank, after there was a well-established population (what is the plant word for "population"?) of val and a micro-sword plant. The sag did well, even out-competed the sword. This was a tank w/ substrate that was running pretty dry, with root tabs for the other larger swords that had started showing signs of deficiencies.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> For example, should the tanks environment have changed (soil releasing less CO2 and an increased plant biomass), Sag could easily start to fade out.


Would algae count as a part of the plant biomass? The floaters wouldn't count because they get their CO2 from the air. At the same time, I wouldn't think algae required much CO2 from the water column either.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Yes, the 'photosynthesizing biomass' includes algae. And algae gets CO2 easier than plants. Furthermore, almost all algae can use bicarbonates very easily, whereas only 50% of aquatic plant species can use bicarbonates.
Submerged plants and algae are always in competition for carbon for their photosynthesis.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

jatcar95 said:


> Definitely seems like that would give other plants a competitive advantage. In my personal experience I've never had issues w/ sag though - I added it late to my 6g tank, after there was a well-established population (what is the plant word for "population"?) of val and a micro-sword plant. The sag did well, even out-competed the sword. This was a tank w/ substrate that was running pretty dry, with root tabs for the other larger swords that had started showing signs of deficiencies.


Apparently, your Sag found a situation where it could get enough CO2 and was able to hold its own with the other plants. (And the substrate is not the only source of CO2. Other variables that could influence CO2 levels would be algae, total plant biomass, water current, aeration, decomposition, filtration, etc.) Sag is a good grower, despite the fact that it cannot use bicarbonates.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Yes, the 'photosynthesizing biomass' includes algae. And algae gets CO2 easier than plants. Furthermore, almost all algae can use bicarbonates very easily, whereas only 50% of aquatic plant species can use bicarbonates.
> Submerged plants and algae are always in competition for carbon for their photosynthesis.


The melting has calmed down quite a bit. I'm seeing runners for the first time in weeks:










The sag's main submersed competitor (other than the algae) is my red tiger lotus (admittedly doing well after its own period of having problems):









I'd like to think it's all the result of a new lighting fixture. But most likely it's just from culling the floaters to admit more light.

In the meanwhile, I recently returned from a week out of town and find that "Jumbo" has completely changed his colors. I'm wondering how much of it has to do with the temperature? There was a heat wave when this snapshot was taken:









But, two weeks later, first official day of Autumn, he's more like this:



















I dunno. Subtle difference?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Breeding colors maybe or lack there of.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

Im sure removing floaters helped. My betta tank always picks up after i sell a bag full off to my LFS!
My LFS has apisto macmasteris $37 for a pair and i am TEMPTED!!! it is all your and this threads fault 😂 ( i am going to doom my self by actually going to look at them tomorrow)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, it's official. Jumbo is a female. Unless I'm totally mistaken, the largest of the juveniles which I've been assuming was Jumbo these past couple of weeks, is now guarding eggs. She has been commandeering the airspace above the rock cave and I was interpreting it as ordinary _male_ dominance until a few days ago. It's pretty obvious that she spends most of her time in the cave and only comes out long enough to chase her siblings away during feeding times (I may have to switch the location of the feedings just to give everyone else a chance to eat in relative peace.)

Now, the only question is who could possibly be the father? Or, is she just guarding unfertilized eggs?


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

I am no expert but I would think they would likely be unfertilized.
Did the Kasa timer work out or was it a bust?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The timer was a bust. I still couldn't figure out how to create more than one consecutive on/off cycle. I traded that in for a dimmer. Same problem but if I can get both the light and the dimmer to work with my old timer, I may accept the compromise. Not to get too far into the weeds (pun intended), but it may boil down to whether the light's default is in the "On" mode whenever it is plugged in. This morning the lights came on after a 30 second delay while connected to the old timer but that was after I pressed the on/off button (the dimmer didn't need to be reprogrammed.) If it does the same thing at siesta time without my having to press the on/off button, I will declare victory.


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> The timer was a bust. I still couldn't figure out how to create more than one consecutive on/off cycle. I traded that in for a dimmer. Same problem but if I can get both the light and the dimmer to work with my old timer, I may accept the compromise. Not to get too far into the weeds (pun intended), but it may boil down to whether the light's default is in the "On" mode whenever it is plugged in. This morning the lights came on after a 30 second delay while connected to the old timer but that was after I pressed the on/off button (the dimmer didn't need to be reprogrammed.) If it does the same thing at siesta time without my having to press the on/off button, I will declare victory.


Bummer I really thought that work especially with their app. Well I am going to give it a shot with the Nicrew SkyLED which does not have any built in timer just buttons for switching between the moonlight dalylight modes. which I wont be using. They are led lights and should be compatiable with any timer at least that is what i was told in one of their responses to my email.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Bummer I really thought that work especially with their app. Well I am going to give it a shot with the Nicrew SkyLED which does not have any built in timer just buttons for switching between the moonlight dalylight modes. which I wont be using. They are led lights and should be compatiable with any timer at least that is what i was told in one of their responses to my email.





johnwesley0 said:


> it may boil down to whether the light's default is in the "On" mode whenever it is plugged in. This morning the lights came on after a 30 second delay while connected to the old timer but that was after I pressed the on/off button (the dimmer didn't need to be reprogrammed.) If it does the same thing at siesta time without my having to press the on/off button, I will declare victory.


SUCCESS! The lights just came back on after being turned off for the siesta period by the external timer. So, I have the Nicrew C10 "full spectrum" default being dimmed and timed automatically by external devices. Still not quite sure why the first kasa timer didn't work, but this is actually better because now I can control the light intensity too.

Thank you SO MUCH for your suggestions (and thank you Amazon for the easy return policies!)

EDIT: It's always nice to see your plants pearling right after a siesta break. I've never seen the red tiger lotus pearl at all. I'm chalking it up to the new lighting regimen - so I'm not touching a thing for the foreseeable future!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> SUCCESS! The lights just came back on after being turned off for the siesta period by the external timer. So, I have the Nicrew C10 "full spectrum" default being dimmed and timed automatically by external devices. Still not quite sure why the first kasa timer didn't work, but this is actually better because now I can control the light intensity too.
> 
> Thank you SO MUCH for your suggestions (and thank you Amazon for the easy return policies!)
> 
> EDIT: It's always nice to see your plants pearling right after a siesta break. I've never seen the red tiger lotus pearl at all. I'm chalking it up to the new lighting regimen - so I'm not touching a thing for the foreseeable future!


Success so happy you found one that worked!!!!! What timer/dimmer did you end up getting?
I have my fingers crossed for the Kasa with the Nicrew Sky I so want to be able to control both lights from the same app. If it doesnt work like you said go amazons return policy!!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> What timer/dimmer did you end up getting?


The timer I've had for a year and a half now. It now controls two tanks:
BN-LINK 7 Day Heavy Duty Digital Programmable Timer, FD60 U6, 115V, 60Hz, Dual Outlet, Indoor, for Lamp Light Fan Security UL Listed: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

The dimmer is a Kasa:
Kasa Outdoor Smart Dimmer Plug, IP64 Plug- in Dimmer for Outdoor String Lights, Compatible with Alexa, Google Assistant & SmartThings, Long Wi-Fi Range 2.4Ghz, No Hub Required, ETL Certified(KP405) - - Amazon.com


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, I've run into an interesting puzzle regarding baby brine shrimp. Remember that long colloquy I had with another Discussion starter about hatching "critter" eggs in the Fall? The issue was how low could someone's ambient room temperature go before they needed a container large enough to fit a heater (I think they resorted to using a "spaghetti jar" with interesting results.)

In any event, it is now definitely Autumn in New York City and my apartment's overnight temperature sinks to about 70 F before the Powers That Be turn the furnace on in time for everyone's morning commute. And what has happened is that it now takes about 48 hours for my BBS eggs to hatch instead of the usual 24 hrs. It's made my present routine of rotating cereal bowls of "rested" salt water every 24 hours seriously out of sync. I refuse to use a spaghetti jar or a liter bottle with a heater inside. I just think that's asking for a lot of suffocated BBS, IMHO.

Instead, I've resorted to increasing the yield a little bit by adding a pinch more eggs to the bowl. Then I freeze whatever I don't feed to the fish over the course of the morning and afternoon (I usually refrigerate the afternoon's feeding in order to slow down the shrimp's metabolism.) The fish are fed the frozen batch the next day for as long as it lasts.

I'm down to four juvies, exactly how many _apisto borell_i I started with in February - and I can't wait until they transition to flake food. It would make all our lives simpler. LOL.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I think they sell heating pads you can place under a small jar, bowl. You need to get a thermostat with it too.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I'll see how warm the bowls get without a thermostat:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

If it gets too hot without a thermostat, you can plug it into a timer like on for an hour, off for 2, etc...


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

The BBS factory is back on line:









Lots of _Artemia _this morning. The temperature of the water in this bowl was slightly north of 82 degrees F. or about twelve degrees above the ambient room temperature after being on continuously for about 14 hours. that's funny because I thought I read in the specs that it could throw off enough heat to raise a seed bed 20 degrees above room level. In this case, the shortfall worked out in my favor. Also, I should point out that the mat does not heat evenly throughout the surface area. It is definitely warmer at the far end of the mat (away from the plug side.) so, there may be some leeway in terms of where you place a small container.

Thanks, @mistergreen !


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I saw somebody make a betta fish cabinet using heat pads or heating cables. It’s cheaper to heat a cabinet than a whole room or buy a dozen heaters.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

They're only about 7 months old and this is only their second attempt at spawning, but I feel good about this time. For one thing there's a credible male in the vicinity who is showing his breeding colors:





















And second of all, I'm thrilled by the idea that the eggs might be inside this Chinese pagoda style ornament. The female dashes back inside there the moment she gets a bite of food during feeding time:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

My daphnia culture arrived today:









As soon as I lifted the box, I could tell it contained water. It must have weighed about a pound.


















I was a little disappointed though. There might be 200 critters in there, but it sure doesn't look like it:









The plan is to pour the entire contents into the breeder tank after the lights go out and the four _apistos_ - one male and three females - are comatose with their last feeding of bbs. The theory is that the critters will be able to find hiding places before sunup tomorrow.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You’re not going to culture them?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

No. Culturing more critters in a separate container won't free up my weekends. The juvies completely ignore flake food.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

They’re not eating bbs?
You can take the easy approach in culturing. Put a few in a big glass jar with a aquarium mulm and some Tiny bit of veg And put by the window for light. You should have a self sustaining small population running.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> They’re not eating bbs?
> You can take the easy approach in culturing. Put a few in a big glass jar with a aquarium mulm and some Tiny bit of veg And put by the window for light. You should have a self sustaining small population running.


I'll try it.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Put a few in a big glass jar with a aquarium mulm and some Tiny bit of veg And put by the window for light.


The irony is that describes my tank perfectly. I'm hoping that by keeping the juvies well-fed with bbs for the next few days a few daphnia will survive and find places to breed. The juvies are spending an unusual amount of time in the floater roots, behavior I haven't seen since the early days of the tank. I'll bet that's where the daphnia are hiding.
*As an update of a different kind, the juvies are pretty far along the road to maturity. At one point recently, all three females were nesting and the male still has his breeding colors. But alas, nothing came of it. Everyone's out and about:







*


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The more you can put mulm in the jar the better. The sun will drive little critters for the daphnia to eat.
I've been eyeing some apistos too. A. Macmasteri looks interesting, A. agassizi too.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Both were in the running until the very end. I think the only reason I wound up with A. Borelli was that the other two were sold out.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Interesting development with the daphnia/live food situation. There is definitely something infesting the roots of the _salvinia_. Every time I disturb them a small cloud of something falls out and begins to float gently downward. They are the exact same size as newly hatched baby brine shrimp, but how likely is it that they would survive that long in freshwater? The _apistos _chow down on them eagerly which I suppose is the proof in the pudding. Have I actually achieved a daphnia culture inside the breeding tank?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Hmm, it's a big tank, they might be living in the roots of the floaters. They usually explode in population, eat all the food, and then die off.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Hmm. Sounds like allowing the _apistos_ to cull the herd would be a good idea, meaning I should cut down on feeding them freshly hatched bbs.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You could have gotten cyclops with your daphnia too. They're the size of BBS. The swimming pattern of daphnia movement is jerky.


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## marple (2 mo ago)

Great topic is this, I really enjoyed reading all your adventures. Perhaps I missed something but do you still have the three adults in your porcelain bowl?

I don't know about the A. Borelli, but my experience with daphnia and whitecloud mountain minnows is the daphnia disappear within a couple of days... But I don't have a lot of floaters so less hiding for them. And I think they also get caught on the powerhead. Do you use something for water circulation? (I can't remember having read if you use a powerhead, but it took me a couple of days to read everything so I might have forgotten...)


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Only one of the original four adults I purchased in February remains. The porcelain bowl became overstocked at nine adult fish at one point. But if I hadn't moved them all, I eventually would not have had any fry left in the apistogramma tank.

No powerhead. The _A. borelli _seem to like the quiet, still water. I think you're right about the _daphnia. _But something seems to have piggy-backed with the daphnia and taken up residence in the roots of the floating plants. The juvies will eat them as they get hungry. @mistergreen thinks they are cyclops.
I haven't taken a snapshot in a while:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Wow, your tank is a jungle.


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## marple (2 mo ago)

Nice! You sure got a lot of hiding places. I imagine the apisto's will love your tank. Too bad for the other adults.

So cool you have been able to realise this with just lighting as the only tech thing. I've read that without water circulation it can be quite tricky to get it working properly, especially in bigger tanks.. Do you have an idea what makes it work with your tank?


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## marple (2 mo ago)

By the way, have you ever considered putting shrimp in your tank? I know the apisto's will hunt for them but you have so much cover that maybe it could work?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

marple said:


> Nice! You sure got a lot of hiding places. I imagine the apisto's will love your tank. Too bad for the other adults.
> 
> So cool you have been able to realise this with just lighting as the only tech thing. I've read that without water circulation it can be quite tricky to get it working properly, especially in bigger tanks.. Do you have an idea what makes it work with your tank?


Wow. Thank you! I really appreciate that. If I could pat myself on the back for one thing, I would say it was picking the right species. I knew going in that my NYC soft water would be a continuing problem and that many _apistos_ actually prefer that. And the more I read about the_ A. Borelli, _that they liked still water, that they liked detritus and lots of hiding places - the more they just shouted, "Low Tech!" As I posted, they started breeding right away.

Additionally, I didn't take any chances with the plants. For such a large tank, I thought it was really important to have terrestrials with their "aerial advantage" in there sucking up ammonia/ammonium faster than the beneficial bacteria could convert it to nitrates. Low nitrates are really the key to fewer water changes, IMO. Humble hat back on. LOL.

ETA: Also, I think one reason people prefer circulation in large tanks is to evenly distribute the heat from thermostatic heaters. I get around that by locating the tank in a room that is basically over-heated all year round.


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## marple (2 mo ago)

I think you make live a lot easier when you use the circumstances to your advantage.
Even though a challenge from time to time is not a bad thing as well 😀

For what I've read circulation is also important for an even distribution of nutrition to the plants. And for oxygen. I have the idea that oxygenation is the most tricky thing without circulation, but I'm probably biased because I had problems with anaerobic soil and added a powerhead for that reason (among other things). Would love to be able to do without though.
I wonder if it's the combination of well rooting plants and a low amount of fish compared to the number of plants is what makes it work with the oxygen in your tank?

As for the nitrates, would it matter if it was a bit higher? With so much plants it would be consumed immediatly I guess. Probably almost impossible to get a high nitrate with your tank 😄

Not that I'm an expert in anything related to planted tanks, just trying to get it 😅


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

marple said:


> I wonder if it's the combination of well rooting plants and a low amount of fish compared to the number of plants is what makes it work with the oxygen in your tank?


I was much less worried about oxygenation than I was about the nitrification process. The dimensions of the tank are such that the water column is rarely more than 10 or 11 inches high, and the surface area available for the exchange of atmospheric oxygen was pretty generous. But yes, this was never going to be a heavily populated tank; even when it was a community tank, it topped out at 10 small-sized adults.



marple said:


> As for the nitrates, would it matter if it was a bit higher? With so much plants it would be consumed immediatly I guess. Probably almost impossible to get a high nitrate with your tank 😄


Well, the thing that @dwalstad makes clear in her book is that nitrate uptake is always going to be less efficient than ammonium/ammonia uptake in plants, just because of the way their metabolisms work. So yes, you are always going to be in the position of having to compensate for the slow accumulation of nitrates, depending on how much ammonium/ammonia gets left over for the bacteria to further breakdown. I am fortunate to be able to go for about 3 months before the nitrates reach ~40ppm.


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## marple (2 mo ago)

That's making it more clear for me, thanx!

I'll be following the adventures of your fish 😀


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

marple said:


> That's making it more clear for me, thanx!
> 
> I'll be following the adventures of your fish 😀


His journal is great! It had me almost abandoning my plans for a sunfish tank and switching to apistos lol.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, I've finally taken the plunge and purchased six shrimp. If they do well in the breeding tank, I might try them in the porcelain bowl agaisnt the lower odds of surviving the bull _apisto_ male. The proprietor of the big, LFS in Lower Manhattan steered me toward the larger amano shrimp. Everything in the store was 20% off, but the amanos seemed a little bit cheaper than the brightly colored ones in the next tank and he assured me they were more efficient algae eaters.

Be that as it may, and as long as I was in the neighborhood, I decided they were worth the experiment even on the coldest day of the year. I drip acclimated them as best I knew how (I even used my API PH kit for the first time) and let them go after about three hours. They immediately spread out with only about three at a time visible at any given time.


























They're bigger than the juvies so I don't foresee predation as a big problem. Nevertheless, I have witnessed one fatality. One of them was crawling along the substrate when it just shuddered violently and turned upside down, propelling itself in this position along the bottom of the tank until it disappeared from sight. I presume it's dead. If it's the only one, I will consider myself lucky. At least three of them appear to be pretty chill.
*Major ETA: I'm a grandparent! This little tike appeared out of nowhere during this evening's feeding:








No sign of any siblings. I'm actually wondering if it's a hitchhiker that came with the shrimp. But the apistos seem strangely blasé about its presence.*


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Well, I've finally taken the plunge and purchased six shrimp. If they do well in the breeding tank, I might try them in the porcelain bowl agaisnt the lower odds of surviving the bull _apisto_ male. The proprietor of the big, LFS in Lower Manhattan steered me toward the larger amano shrimp. Everything in the store was 20% off, but the amanos seemed a little bit cheaper than the brightly colored ones in the next tank and he assured me they were more efficient algae eaters.
> 
> Be that as it may, and as long as I was in the neighborhood, I decided they were worth the experiment even on the coldest day of the year. I drip acclimated them as best I knew how (I even used my API PH kit for the first time) and let them go after about three hours. They immediately spread out with only about three at a time visible at any given time.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the shrimp. It sounds like me lol. Just saw another betta at my LFS tonight that i am going to go back for monday after i switch the vase over to the mirical-gro or epsoma cacti mix. 

Are having them to just clean algae or to breed? I ask because l dont think amano breed in home aquariums.

Did you drip accimuliate them? 
I lost two of the six ghost shrimp, hopefully you dont loose any more the one possible loss. 

Also congarts in the grandparent status lol. 
Merry Christmas 🎄


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Since introducing blue gularis killifish, my Armanos are gone. If it fits the fishes mouths, it’s food.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

PlentyCoup said:


> Are having them to just clean algae or to breed? I ask because l dont think amano breed in home aquariums.


I read the same thing once I brought them home. Luckily, I don't care if they if they breed or not. They're mainly for algae eating. And I only landed on them because the LFS didn't have any sailfin mollies or nerite snails at the time.

I tested the PH in the bag and the tank and I couldn't tell that there was a huge difference; they were both pretty alkaline. I poured a little of the tank water into the bag over the space of three hours. All but one were pretty active while still in the bag.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Finally spotted the mother and child together this morning:































This seems to be the only surviving fry. I estimate its age at about one week. The mother had been spending a lot of time carving out this territory for herself and now I can see why. I will have to not feed the other adults there.


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## marple (2 mo ago)

Oh wow, that's so cool. New shrimp and a baby to observe. And new developments for us to follow 😄

I've also read that amano are very good cleaners and they do have their bigger size as an advantage. I think cherry shrimp compensate for that by breeding like crazy. I heared many examples of people with shrimp only tanks who had an explosion of shrimp. Which is great if you want some because they sell them cheap.

I think it is a matter of trial and error to see which works better, bigger size or loads of new 'supply'. Every situation is kind of unique, there are succes story's of shrimp being able to sustain themselves and sometimes they just dissapear. And there are people who thought their cherries were gone and discovered a whole colony when clearing out the tank. 

Curious to find out your experience. You'll probably love watching them being busy cleaning. And I hope you won't have any more losses. 
By they way, I've seen my shrimp doing weird stuff out of panic but still live afterwards so if you're lucky it's not dead...


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, to be honest (TBH), I'm not having much luck. The one that I described was indeed a fatality. The carcass was pretty easy to spot the following morning. And, once I knew what to look for, three others followed suit. My tank looked like an old Civil War battleground. That left two active critters that seemed to be doing well. I can absolutely see the result of their work in a very short time. They speed up the desiccation process tremendously:









This corner of the tank was a mass of melting leaves and hair algae just 48 hours ago. But now the green shoots are everywhere, and it looks much crisper.

Alas, I don't see the two survivors anywhere this morning and am fearing the worst. The only good thing is that their corpses should be easy to spot, and I don't see any.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Well, to be honest (TBH), I'm not having much luck. The one that I described was indeed a fatality. The carcass was pretty easy to spot the following morning. And, once I knew what to look for, three others followed suit. My tank looked like an old Civil War battleground. That left two active critters that seemed to be doing well. I can absolutely see the result of their work in a very short time. They speed up the desiccation process tremendously:
> View attachment 76193
> 
> 
> ...


Good news! I've spotted one, so there's a good chance the other is around somewhere. Two good-sized shrimp survivors would make me very happy.

ETA: They're both alive.

ETA: You're right. I can't keep my eyes off them!


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## PlentyCoup (Aug 22, 2021)

johnwesley0 said:


> Good news! I've spotted one, so there's a good chance the other is around somewhere. Two good-sized shrimp survivors would make me very happy.
> 
> ETA: They're both alive.
> 
> ETA: You're right. I can't keep my eyes off them!


Sorry about the losses. If they dont do well or want to add in more shrimp try the ghost shrimp as well. They are the same size as amano and equally good at algae eating.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Gosh, they're like lawn mowers:


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Day 3 - Woke up this morning to find the two survivors (after some searching) still going strong. I'm starting to become optimistic that I made a wise purchase. They have already had a stunning effect on this old, algae encrusted, _anubias_:








Believe me, it was much worse 48 hours ago.

And is this guppy grass? It came with the shrimp:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Amanos hide a lot especially when they sense a predator around. I bet more survived.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I have another juvie mother (I guess _juvie _is the wrong word from here on out - but they'll always be just kids as far as I'm concerned.) She has just emerged from the deepest cave and appears to be guarding a small number of grains of sand that occasionally move:


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## marple (2 mo ago)

mistergreen said:


> Amanos hide a lot especially when they sense a predator around. I bet more survived.


With my cherries I have sometimes the idea that I have no shrimp at all and other times they are all walking around.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

marple said:


> With my cherries I have sometimes the idea that I have no shrimp at all and other times they are all walking around.


Same thing here. I'll think they're gone, eaten by all the guppies, only to suddenly reappear. They lead mysterious lives.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

mistergreen said:


> Amanos hide a lot especially when they sense a predator around. I bet more survived.


Wish it was so. I counted the bodies the following morning. Four out of the six did not make it. Taking them home from a LFS during the coldest day of the year, in retrospect was not the brightest idea I ever had. I was briefly rattled just a dew moments ago when I discovered my first shrimp moulting:








Scared the hell out of me.
ETA: Am I supposed to put this back in the tank for them to devour??


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yes, the molt is food. If you are going to the lfs via subway, I'd bring along a small cooler to put the livestock in.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Shrimp are very vulnerable right after they molt.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

First photos of a fry from a different mother:


















This one's a little more blonde than its first cousin, making me wonder if this is early sign of their sex? The other thing I notice is how fast these single fry broods seem to be growing. At one week of age they are already foraging for food independently of their mothers and show signs of being aware of their surroundings. The next week or two will be crucial to their ability to evade predation.


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## marple (2 mo ago)

Interesting, I wonder what are the influencing factors on how fast they grow. Temperature and the amount of food I would guess? I don't know if the temperature changed but these single ones do have a lot less competition...


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## marple (2 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Shrimp are very vulnerable right after they molt.


I guess that's why my berried shrimp are hiding so much, because they molt just before that isn't it? Sometimes they hide so much that I'm worried they I've lost them, but the next day I suddenly see one or two of them in a little corner somewhere


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I made a big move this morning regarding my terrestrials. I decided the _pothos_ was just getting too big and possibly competing with the submerged plants for nutrients. My fears increased once it became obvious the extent to which its roots had grown into the soil over the space of the past nine months:










I could have just trimmed the roots but decided to just transfer the whole thing to the porcelain bowl for now. I'll now have to monitor the ammonia level in the breeding tank just to make sure I haven't gone too far.


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