# Dirted tank plant die off



## scream-aim-fire

So I have a thread goin over at the plantedtank about this same thing pretty much. But I figured I would post here under the el natural section sense that's pretty much what my tank is. Anyway this is what up, my tank, 75gal, dirted with top soil, capped with florite, pressurized co2, 4-23watt 6500k spiral bulbs. I dirted it about maybe 2 months ago, planted it heavily, no fish for the first month or so. After planting the tank, all plants looked good were growing ok, well it's been now close to 3-4 weeks now I have had plant die off, leaves dying on certain plants but not on others, also some stem rot. I have talked to zapins a lot about what could be goin on with my tank, possibly nutrient, so I started adding dry fertz which I thought I wouldn't have to do with the dirt. No noticeable difference in plants. We also talked about maybe ammonia toxicity, but ammonia is 0 or very close to it, so I don't think that is it. Has anyone else had issues like this with a dirted tank? As far as plants looking good for a month or so then all of the sudden stuff starts dying and leaves start falling off?


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## Michael

What kind of soil did you use, how did you prepare it, and how deep is it? Severely anaerobic substrate might cause these problems.


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## atc84

Have you been doing water changes? Maybe the lack of fish waste is creating a lack of nitrogen, but first check for smelly bubbles coming from your substrate by pocking around in it.


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## scream-aim-fire

Michael said:


> What kind of soil did you use, how did you prepare it, and how deep is it? Severely anaerobic substrate might cause these problems.


It is a brand sold at lowes called evergreen, it's mostly a straight organic compost no added fertz or anything, I just added it to the tank with a layer or florite on top. Soil is maybe 1-1.5 inches deep with about 1 inch of cap on top.

Also I do poke the substrate a lot to try to keep it from going anaerobic I do notice a little smell. Also I have mts in the tank to dig. I try to do a 50% water change every 1-2 weeks but here as of lately I have been doing 1-2 per week. As for nitrogen I have been doseing NPK at various dosages sense the issue has come up, no noticable changes for the past 2-3 weeks. I do think it may have somthing to do with the soil turning anaerobic but I have been trying to poke it a lot to get some o2 into the soil.


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## atc84

do any of the effected plants have anything in common? has your tap water changed at all/temp/hardness? Maybe your lighting is dying off. I'm just listing off some problems that could effect plant growth in your situation.


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## scream-aim-fire

atc84 said:


> do any of the effected plants have anything in common? has your tap water changed at all/temp/hardness? Maybe your lighting is dying off. I'm just listing off some problems that could effect plant growth in your situation.


As far as anything in common with the plants, I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but some of my limnophilia is dying at the base some is not, all lower leaves all falling off though. All my ludwigia is either dying at the base or in the middle of the stem and losing lower leaves. S repens seems like almost all stems are losing lower leaves but there is patches of stems here and there in my maybe 12x5 section that look worse all over. Hygro compacta lost all lower leaves, and some stems died completely. Bacopa caroliniana is losing all lower leaves and some stems are rotting at the base. Crypts look fine, rotala rotundifolia grows fine, glosso looks fine just not growing really, hc looks fine just not growing. Nothing with my water has changed and just the other day sense nothing I have tryed seems to be helping, I upped my gh and kh from around 2-3 to 6-7ppm to see if maybe that has an effect maybe too low, I don't know. I am really at a loss right now with growing plants, been growing aquarium plants for years with little to no effort and now it's like I can't grow anything.


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## atc84

I meant if any of the plants share a common preferred temp, amount of light, hardness, etc. well the only thing i can think of is your lighting. Do you have plants that are non-root feeders like water sprite that are growing well or at all? also pictures would help.


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## dwalstad

scream-aim-fire said:


> Crypts look fine.


I suspect the tank's problem is metal toxicity from excessive iron. The organic soil solubilized the iron in the fluorite releasing excessive iron. This is due to the soil's anaerobic conditions and acidity *plus* the soil's copious humus, which acts like an iron-chelator. This excessive iron can kill sensitive plants.

A similar problem happened to me about 20 years ago when I mixed an iron-rich clay (laterite) with an organic soil (my book, page 132).

The Crypts seem a little more resistant to metal toxicity than other plants, perhaps because of their slower growth and/or adaption to high metal levels in their native environment.

Folks, I have always advised against mixing soils. Clay often contains a coating of aluminum oxides and iron oxides. Adding clay to an organic soil invites iron and/or aluminum toxicity. Organic soils contain humus, anaerobic conditions, and often some acidity -- perfect combination for solubilizing iron oxides and aluminum oxides. The oxides are not toxic, but the solubilized iron and aluminum can be.

Your poking the soil and changing water is helpful. I'm not sure what else you can do until the soil "settles down." It will eventually.

With CO2 injection, there's little need to use an organic soil. You might have been better off just using a non-organic soil, fluorite and gravel, etc. A little organic matter might be okay, but not a 1.5 inch thick layer.

Hope this helps!


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## Zapins

Interesting you should say that Diana. I came to a similar conclusion (metal toxicity) by looking at the symptoms of the plants.

Take a look at this thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=476929

Also, I wrote a post about overdosing CSM+B and metal toxicity:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=503585

Have you found any research that states the toxicity ranges for any of the micro nutrient metals? I've found a few but they aren't very common in aquatic plants, or plants in general. Also, I'd love to read the research that supports your statement (below) it sounds fascinating!



dwalstad said:


> I suspect the tank's problem is metal toxicity from excessive iron. The organic soil solubilized the iron in the fluorite releasing excessive iron. This is due to the soil's anaerobic conditions and acidity plus the soil's copious humus, which acts like an iron-chelator. This excessive iron can kill sensitive plants.


Scream - are you still having the same issues as you were in this thread?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=500761


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## scream-aim-fire

Hey zapins, yea same thing goin on really, just thought I would post on here to see if anyone with dirt was having the same thing goin on. I do want to thank you for all the help you have givin me so far. As of right now, I have been doubling up on water changes now that I have my new water lines running to each of my tanks, takes like half the time to do water changes now, it's awesome. Anyway I have noticed that my plants don't look as bad as they did. Haven't really noticed them really bouncing back yet but I guess it's starting to recover. I'm going to keep doing a lot more frequent water changes and keep poking at the substrate hopefully my plants will decide to start going wild soon.

Diana, thank you for your reply, It makes sense along with what zapins was talking about with the toxicity thing. Seems like with the doubled up water changes that I have been doing that i may be getting those toxins out and maybe my tank will straighten out soon. It's kind of weird I had almost similar things going on in my tank when I had straight fluorite with out dirt before like you had suggested sense I am running co2, that's the reason I switched to dirt hoping it would help my plants out. Anyways I am going to pick up your book soon, would love to read up more on npt's. 

Will keep an up date on tank.


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## grin

uhoh, I am planning my tank, and I was planning on using soil capped with fluorite. I've already purchased and rinsed the fluorite. Since I haven't set up my tank yet, is there anything I can do to prevent excessive iron leaching?

How long does this condition last before the soil settles down?


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## JeffyFunk

A couple of comments... 

First of all, if you have a soil sublayer capped w/ an Fe rich substrate (like Laterite) AND you inject CO2, you can probably remove the excess metals from the water column with the addition of activated carbon. If you do not inject CO2, this is not an option because the activated carbon will also remove the dissolved organic compounds from the water column, which the plants use as a carbon source. 

I think the issue here is not really the soil sublayer, but the laterite. According to the directions, laterite is supposed to be used as substrate additive, not the substrate itself. (Disclaimer - i've never used laterite itself so maybe it can be used as the substrate neat.) 

I've used other nutrient rich planted aquarium substrates like flourite and aquasoil w/ soil sublayers and my plants did not exhibit signs of metal toxicity. It's important to realize that those products are not as rich in Fe as laterite is, though, and that's the important difference.


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## scream-aim-fire

Thanks for the comment about running activated charcoal, didn't think about that, I haven't run activated charcoal in my fresh tanks in over 5-6 years. Also My substrate is capped with fluorite not laterite.



JeffyFunk said:


> A couple of comments...
> 
> First of all, if you have a soil sublayer capped w/ an Fe rich substrate (like Laterite) AND you inject CO2, you can probably remove the excess metals from the water column with the addition of activated carbon. If you do not inject CO2, this is not an option because the activated carbon will also remove the dissolved organic compounds from the water column, which the plants use as a carbon source.
> 
> I think the issue here is not really the soil sublayer, but the laterite. According to the directions, laterite is supposed to be used as substrate additive, not the substrate itself. (Disclaimer - i've never used laterite itself so maybe it can be used as the substrate neat.)
> 
> I've used other nutrient rich planted aquarium substrates like flourite and aquasoil w/ soil sublayers and my plants did not exhibit signs of metal toxicity. It's important to realize that those products are not as rich in Fe as laterite is, though, and that's the important difference.


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## grin

Diane,

In your book, you mention that water conditioners containing EDTA can bind with metals eliminate metal toxicity. Do you think that will help here?


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## dwalstad

grin said:


> Diane,
> 
> In your book, you mention that water conditioners containing EDTA can bind with metals eliminate metal toxicity. Do you think that will help here?


Perhaps, but don't count on it. The water conditioners with EDTA will mop up toxic metals in the water and protect leaves, but they won't help in mopping up metals in the substrate that are killing the roots. Whatever toxic metals are in the water probably reflect much larger amounts in the substrate. The leaves and stems might be protected, but the roots are being killed. Plants with perfectly lovely stems and leaves will detach from the substrate and float to the surface.


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## Zapins

Also, EDTA doesn't remove metals, it just binds them up in a less toxic form. EDTA chelated metals can still reach toxic levels, but do so at concentrations roughly 10x more than unchelated metals.


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## Pheesh!!

I will add my experience as I have also set up a tank with a soil sub-layer that has been capped with fluorite. I used MGOC potting soil as the dirt layer (about 1.5 inches in the front, and about 3 inches in the back (which I now know is a terrible idea due to the increase risk of anaerobic conditions due to a deep soil layer; thankfully have not had many problems at all) and the fluorite cap is about 1.5 inches as well. I prepared all the soil in my tank by soaking it for about 3 days (poured off the muddy water/floaters) and then followed up with a wet/dry cycle for about 4 weeks. I wish I had soaked the soil for a full 2 weeks and then done the wet/dry cycle for closer to 6 weeks. I had some minor issues after I had first set up the tank, but this may have been b/c I was having a hard time keeping up with water changes for that first month. Before adding the fluorite cap I also added red pottery clay (Amaco brand) in small balls throughout the dirt for additional iron. I also have pressurized co2. 

I have noticed as time has gone on that my taller plants have lost most leaves on the bottom portion of the stem while the tops look great. I’m assuming it to be a natural part of the plant life cycle. As it grows, the top leaves are exposed to lots of light while the bottom leaves, which are nearly completely shaded, are not able to add to the photosynthetic process and are shed by the plant to utilize energy in other areas, such as vertical growth. I also seemed to have the same issue that you are having with my anubias, but not with any of my rooted plants. About 7 weeks after I set up the tank my anubias, which I have had for ~3 years and have always been my hardiest plants by far, just seemed to melt away. Nearly every leaf on the plant began to get small holes, which I thought to be a K+ deficiency at the time, so I started to dose with liquid potassium. This only seemed to make the issue worse and about 2 weeks after starting this regimen nearly every leaf on the plant was gone with the exception of 3-4. It is starting to make a comeback, but it just looks sickly compared to before it was in a dirt tank. I have since stopped the K+ dosing and like I said, it seems to be doing better. I honestly don’t know much about my plants in regards to what conditions they grow best in etc etc, but my mixture of plants seems to be doing great with the exception of the anubias. Maybe not prepping the soil has lead to the toxicity Diana has described. I can’t imagine what would have happened to my tank had I not prepped the soil. It’s very hot, but has definitely settled down since setup in October


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## totziens

If you've decided to use activated charcoal/carbon, make sure you do not leave it too long in the filter as all the chemical will leak back into your tank without serving any purpose. I normally do not leave it in my filter beyond 1 week - I have not used it for years actually...maybe coming to 10 years or more


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## JeffyFunk

totziens said:


> If you've decided to use activated charcoal/carbon, make sure you do not leave it too long in the filter as all the chemical will leak back into your tank without serving any purpose. I normally do not leave it in my filter beyond 1 week - I have not used it for years actually...maybe coming to 10 years or more


I must ask... where did you get a time frame of 1 week? Do you have a reference for that? I have heard that EVENTUALLY activated carbon will release its sequestered nutrients back into the water column, but i always thought that was dependent upon the activated carbon being completely saturated and/or degradation of the active sites on the carbon ... which would place the release of nutrients in the ballpark time frame of months, not a week. I just find the recommendation of one week for activated carbon to be too short...


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## Zapins

JeffyFunk said:


> I must ask... where did you get a time frame of 1 week? Do you have a reference for that? I have heard that EVENTUALLY activated carbon will release its sequestered nutrients back into the water column, but i always thought that was dependent upon the activated carbon being completely saturated and/or degradation of the active sites on the carbon ... which would place the release of nutrients in the ballpark time frame of months, not a week. I just find the recommendation of one week for activated carbon to be too short...


I was thinking the same thing. I am interested to find out though.


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## totziens

The one week time frame is just my own personal preference. I just don't like to leave the carbon very long because my tanks are planted tanks and I don't want the carbon to absorb all the nutrients meant for the plants. That's all! I personally don't like to use carbon unless necessary (I don't have any reason). No scientific evidence or any reference 

By the way, I came across an article that mentioned about carbon being dried up for re-use. I have never attempted it as I last used carbon about 10 years ago and I threw it away after 1 week


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## PlantedTank

dwalstad said:


> I suspect the tank's problem is metal toxicity from excessive iron. The organic soil solubilized the iron in the fluorite releasing excessive iron. This is due to the soil's anaerobic conditions and acidity *plus* the soil's copious humus, which acts like an iron-chelator. This excessive iron can kill sensitive plants.
> 
> A similar problem happened to me about 20 years ago when I mixed an iron-rich clay (laterite) with an organic soil (my book, page 132).
> 
> The Crypts seem a little more resistant to metal toxicity than other plants, perhaps because of their slower growth and/or adaption to high metal levels in their native environment.
> 
> Folks, I have always advised against mixing soils. Clay often contains a coating of aluminum oxides and iron oxides. Adding clay to an organic soil invites iron and/or aluminum toxicity. Organic soils contain humus, anaerobic conditions, and often some acidity -- perfect combination for solubilizing iron oxides and aluminum oxides. The oxides are not toxic, but the solubilized iron and aluminum can be.
> 
> Your poking the soil and changing water is helpful. I'm not sure what else you can do until the soil "settles down." It will eventually.
> 
> With CO2 injection, there's little need to use an organic soil. You might have been better off just using a non-organic soil, fluorite and gravel, etc. A little organic matter might be okay, but not a 1.5 inch thick layer.
> 
> Hope this helps!


I'm planning to change my substrate in my 10G from all gravel to a mixture of MGOCPM and (I cannot tell a lie) Saf-T-Sorb, because the Montmorilite is supposed to have a high CEC, which is supposed to be good, with a cap of sand.

I know the issues about Fluorite and and mixing soils have been answered already and they worry me. Is Montmorilite possibly an exception?

Thank you


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