# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Practical questions on setup of "el natural" low-ph tanks



## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I am interested in trying my hand at keeping some fish that require low-pH, soft-water environments (ie. Betta persephone, and/or some killie species). I think I understand the science behind it, but I am hitting a wall on the _practical application_ of that. I read about setting up peat filtration, boiled oak leaves, etc. Frankly, I am stuck on how to begin and maintain the environment. Also, can this be done in the low-tech, "el natural" fashion (ie. soil substrate, sunlight, etc)?

First of all, what exactly is peat filtration? Is this as simple as putting peat in the substrate, or using all peat instead of soil? Is this what I would call generic peat moss found at garden centers, or sphagnum(?) peat moss? (Are there other types?) If not in the substrate, would peat in a filter bag in my AquaClear Mini filter, or sitting in a bag in a corner of the tank work?

Secondly, what about the use of oak or almond leaves which I see mentioned on different web sites? They will frequently mention them being boiled and placed into the tank (I assume settled on the bottom or maybe floating). Are these fresh, tree-picked leaves? Dry, dead leaves? If boiled, for how long (don't they just disintegrate)? I've never boiled leaves, so I'm not sure what is involved. How long do these boiled leaves last in such an environment? Does it get messy?

What about plants, then? I would assume things like Java Moss and Java Fern would work, as they seem so hardy as to work in just about any environment. What about other types of plants? Any crypts?

As you can see, I find lots of data to work from, but I cannot find any documentation on how to implement the suggestions. Hence my verbose confusion above! 

Thanks for any assistance.

Oh, one other thing. My tap water, the starting point, is always pH 7.0 and a GH/KH of ~1dH.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I am interested in trying my hand at keeping some fish that require low-pH, soft-water environments (ie. Betta persephone, and/or some killie species). I think I understand the science behind it, but I am hitting a wall on the _practical application_ of that. I read about setting up peat filtration, boiled oak leaves, etc. Frankly, I am stuck on how to begin and maintain the environment. Also, can this be done in the low-tech, "el natural" fashion (ie. soil substrate, sunlight, etc)?

First of all, what exactly is peat filtration? Is this as simple as putting peat in the substrate, or using all peat instead of soil? Is this what I would call generic peat moss found at garden centers, or sphagnum(?) peat moss? (Are there other types?) If not in the substrate, would peat in a filter bag in my AquaClear Mini filter, or sitting in a bag in a corner of the tank work?

Secondly, what about the use of oak or almond leaves which I see mentioned on different web sites? They will frequently mention them being boiled and placed into the tank (I assume settled on the bottom or maybe floating). Are these fresh, tree-picked leaves? Dry, dead leaves? If boiled, for how long (don't they just disintegrate)? I've never boiled leaves, so I'm not sure what is involved. How long do these boiled leaves last in such an environment? Does it get messy?

What about plants, then? I would assume things like Java Moss and Java Fern would work, as they seem so hardy as to work in just about any environment. What about other types of plants? Any crypts?

As you can see, I find lots of data to work from, but I cannot find any documentation on how to implement the suggestions. Hence my verbose confusion above! 

Thanks for any assistance.

Oh, one other thing. My tap water, the starting point, is always pH 7.0 and a GH/KH of ~1dH.


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Rusticitas,
First of all, your water parameters are fine for most soft water fish. Almost all softwater fish can adapt to neutral pH and even breed under such condition. Even some of the picky sensitive soft water fish can easily adapt up to pH of 7.2. Your GH is low also, so I don't see any point on lowering any of those parameters.

I'm not a fan of using peat nor leaves. There are several ways on using peat. You can use it as filter media or under the substrate. 

Many breeders use leaves to induce spawning. It does soften the water but I heard mainly used to create breeding environment. 

My choice of softening water is using Reverse Osmosis unit. I use it for my discus tanks. My tap water has pH of 7.8, GH over 17dH. This is hard water.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

ninob,

Thank you for your reply. I guess I still do not have a deep understanding of soft/hard water vs. pH in terms of fish (and plant) adaptability. I will have to read up on that further. But in essence, when a fish is said to "prefer" a low-pH tank, does that generally indicate that they might be adaptable to tap water such as mine? I appreciate your help. Thanks!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

If your GH and KH are that low, your water has almost no pH buffering. Bringing the pH down should be very easy. Add 1 teaspoon of vinegar or a tiny amount of "pH Down". The pH decrease should be immediate and permanent. If not, your test kits for GH and KH are off.

If you truly have a GH and KH of one, then I think that your softwater fish should be fine. I'm not even sure that you have to bring the pH down below 7.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Vinegar, eh? 

I'll give that a try in a test tank over the weekend and see how things go.

I guess a related question would be what plants work well in a low(er) pH environment? I usually just use "easy" plants like java fern, java moss, and some crypts (although they do seem to melt on me a good bit, even if just a leaf or two).

(I would assume something like the cheap white vinegar is fine?)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Vinegar is aceitic acid, so any type vinegar should do. 

However, make it a one-time addition. Vinegar (acetic acid) is also bacteria food. If you keep adding it. you will give you cloudy or filamentous bacterial growth. Not a pretty sight (and it has happened to me).


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## nino (Oct 2, 2004)

Rusti,
If I were you I would double check the KH level before doing anything to the pH. I don't see any problem at all even breeding soft water fish with your water. pH of 7 is perfect for fish keeping.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

I suggest that you not mess with the water just yet. With neutral water and very low KH, I suspect that the normal biological processes int he tank will lower the pH to the mid 6s rather quickly. In fact, you will need to be careful of a pH crash if the KH of the tank "wears away" from normal tank processes. 

Or have you been keeping fish with this water for awhile?


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Hrm. I have never had a tank "crash" downward, pH-wise. I have had spikes up to pH 8+ in my very first tank at one point. But I have not had that happen since then. I have never had a pH in any of my tanks below pH 7.

In the Eco-Complete tanks, it's always 7.5~8.0 and since it apparently does some buffering the GH/KH are around ~5dH (give or take a degree). Even though the pH reads high in those tanks, plants and fish seem completely fine.

In the couple of tanks with soil and gravel, the pH seems to hover around 7.0-7.3 (my best guess, the pH test is not too accurate), usually at pH 7.0.

I will re-re-re-test the GH and KH (I have an AP test kit) and carefully re-read the instructions. Hopefully I have not been stupid about the tests. I do recall a conversation about a year ago with the city water chemist who mentioned that the water was pretty much "empty", so I *think* I am correct.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Oh, one other thing. Many keepers of such low-pH fish seem to recommend putting (boiled?) oak or almond leaves in the tank. I would assume to provide a good humic acid source. Typically the fish are said to be kept in "tea colored" water. (Apparently the Betta persephone's, especially wild caught, need a pH of 4.5-5.5! That sounds too technical for me at this point.)


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