# Alternatives to conventional dosing



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hey everyone.

Just wanted to jot down my thoughts on E.I. dosing as compared to my new method. I've used E.I. on three tanks for a year and a half now, with mixed results. I've had algae issues, deficiencies, and other common problems. Recently, I switched to using Osmocote Plus terrestrial plant food in gelatin capsules to great success. In the past I'd always had issues with algae on my plants, from java fern to hairgrass, regardless of my E.I. tweaks. Once I switched to the Osmocote capsules, all the algae died off within 2 weeks, literally died off. This algae ranged from GSA on the plants to BBA, to the standard green stuff everyone gets on the leaves from time to time.

It never made sense to me to have so many nutrients floating around in the water column, where algae can utilize them more than the plants can. Sure there's a "sweet spot" for each tank with E.I., but the time it takes to get to that point, and all the mishaps and algae outbreaks isn't worth it to me. Allow the plants to utilize the nutrients from the roots, and throw in the occasional CSM+B dosage, and my tank is spotless.

Now granted, I'm still having issues with GDA after stopping all fertilizer dosing for over a month in conjunction with high co2 and average t5 lighting but that's a mystery for another day. The only problem I've had with the Osmocote is that my plants have a lighter color to them. My limnophilia aromatica doesn't have it's usual red, but I believe it's from light obstruction (I had 2 GIANT mats of riccia spinning on top of the tank for a month).

Options for using the Osmocote Plus range from buying empty gelatin capsules and filling them (easier than it sounds), or freezing them in ice cube trays and inserting in the gravel.

And before someone asks, you _must_ use Osmocote PLUS not regular Osmocote.


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## ms.alice (Jan 29, 2011)

THANK YOU. 1+. 

I will be finished with my degree in Biology (chem minor) in August...right now I'm working on some cyanobacteria-related research in addition to a few other projects. My main focus has been ecology, and frankly EI makes no sense to me either. I guess it works out ok for some people, but you know what? In my last tank I didn't use any ferts or CO2 and had some generic gravelly substrate. No algae. Plants doing fine and growing well. Someone can tell me their EI success story all day long and it doesn't indicate anything substantial to me.


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## MrBlackThumb (Aug 30, 2005)

Is that PLUS for micro nutrients? Why not regular Osmocote? What's the difference?


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

MrBlackThumb said:


> Is that PLUS for micro nutrients? Why not regular Osmocote? What's the difference?


Yes the plus is for micro nutrients. Plus (no pun intended) I don't believe the makeup of regular osmocote is the same.

ms.alice, that's what's been making me so confused lately about E.I. I know there are hundreds if not thousand of people that use it, but I've found that this works much better. A lot less work, cleaner, easier, etc.

Oh and to update from last post, the light color has darkened after taking the riccia out.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Jason, could you give us some specifics? How much Osmocote do you use? How long does it last?

I've had good results with soil-based Walstad tanks, but I've been curious about use of Osmocote to boost fertility in tanks that have been set up for a while. And I've wondered about mixing Osmocote with the soil layer when setting up a new tank.

Thanks!


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

I use enough Osmocote to fill a 00 size gelatin capsule. It's probably close to 20 of the little pellets. 

Terrestrially it lasts up to 6 months. As for use in aquariums, I'm currently testing for longevity. There are many ways of inserting in the substrate from the gelatin capsules to ice cubes to ice sheets. The capsules work great because they cover about a 3" sq. area with fertilizer and make it easy to stick them down in the substrate/soil.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

flashbang009 said:


> I use enough Osmocote to fill a 00 size gelatin capsule. It's probably close to 20 of the little pellets.
> 
> Terrestrially it lasts up to 6 months. As for use in aquariums, I'm currently testing for longevity. There are many ways of inserting in the substrate from the gelatin capsules to ice cubes to ice sheets. The capsules work great because they cover about a 3" sq. area with fertilizer and make it easy to stick them down in the substrate/soil.


I would really like to believe that Osmocote is the greatest thing this hobby has ever seen! I am not being factious since this hobby is really nowhere near scientific. 
Now I cannot argue with "facts." If you have something that is good you need to give all of us a lot of facts about what you are doing. You need to give use enough detail so that we can duplicate what you have done "exactly." 
Be specific, don't say, "There are many ways to insert in the substrate", this is an opinion not based on facts. Say "I insert this way&#8230;"
Say, I insert the capsule one every 3 sq. in. 
When you say, "I'm currently testing for longevity." This tells me that this is not going to work. 
Finally, How do you know what ms.alice was 1+ for?

Seriously, I'd like to try this but you don't give us enough detail to duplicate what you have done.


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Boy you're just lookin for a discussion eh?



ray-the-pilot said:


> I would really like to believe that Osmocote is the greatest thing this hobby has ever seen! I am not being factious since this hobby is really nowhere near scientific.
> Now I cannot argue with "facts." If you have something that is good you need to give all of us a lot of facts about what you are doing. You need to give use enough detail so that we can duplicate what you have done "exactly."


First off, there's only so much to this method. It involves capsules, Osmocote and your hand in the gravel. This is not a widely discussed method, therefore this is simply a starting point. I hope you're not coming from an E.I. pov, because to talk about "facts" with E.I. is quite counterproductive. Simply throwing in 1/4 tsp of something to "flood the water column" doesn't work for me. See ms.alice's post.

Secondly, I'm not sure what your definition of "facts" is. See my reasoning for this below.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Be specific, don't say, "There are many ways to insert in the substrate", this is an opinion not based on facts.


Seriously? Re-read my post. \/


> There are many ways of inserting in the substrate from the gelatin capsules to ice cubes to ice sheets


I'm not exactly sure where the opinion comes into that statement. You can freeze the Osmocote, or stick it in a capsule. Then, place in the substrate. Sorry if I used too many opinions in that one.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Say "I insert this way&#8230;"


I insert the capsule into the gravel by sticking it headfirst into the gravel roughly 2" down. This doesn't differ at all from any other substrate fertilizers.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Say, I insert the capsule one every 3 sq. in.


Really? \/


> they cover about a 3" sq. area





ray-the-pilot said:


> When you say, "I'm currently testing for longevity." This tells me that this is not going to work.


If no one ever said this, that would mean no testing is taking place. If that was the case, then you could be assured that it isn't going to work. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with that statement. I started using this method 3-4 weeks ago, therefore I'm not sure how long the fertilizer will last (i.e. I'm currently testing for longevity). So far, I've seen no reduction in pellet size.



ray-the-pilot said:


> Finally, How do you know what ms.alice was 1+ for?


Please read the rest of her post. It shows her unease with E.I. dosing, and that she doesn't understand flooding the water column with ferts. This method eliminates that. This method is also meant to be just as the title says; an alternative to conventional dosing.

If you've got something constructive, please feel free to post. However, if you're simply going to belittle someone else's post with petty technicalities, I'd prefer you not.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Jason, to continue in a constructive manner, have you tested for nutrients in the water column after putting in the Osmocote? I have wondered if the nutrients stay in the substrate, or if they diffuse into the water.

You may not see the pellets decrease in size at all. From my understanding of the way Osmocote is made, the exterior of each pellet is acutally a porous shell or matrix that holds the soluable nutrients and releases them over time. When used in potted terrestrial plants, the pellets persist for a long time after the six month period during which the nutrients are released. If you pick out the old pellets, they are fragile, easily crushed, and hollow. But they are still the same size.

I haven't used Osmocote or similar products in aquariums, but I have used them for water lilies in ponds. A successful local grower of water lilies showed me the technique: put about an inch thick layer of pellets in the bottom of shallow pot, add a layer of soil, then plant the lily in the soil. This seemed like WAY too much fertilizer to me, but I found that I could fertilize once in the spring using this method, and get excellent growth and flowering all summer even in smaller-than-normal pots. Previously I was fertilizing monthly with water lily tabs. The results were not nearly as good as with the once-a-season Osmocote. My grower friend treats all her tropical lilies this way, and she can raise one to flowering size in a 16 oz. plastic drink cup without ever repotting. When the plants are repotted, the layer of pellets can still be seen at the bottom of the old pot.

Of course an aquarium is a much smaller, more delicate system than a pond. But I never had any trouble with my fish in several different ponds, including one heavily stocked with koi.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

flashbang009 said:


> Boy you're just lookin for a discussion eh?


I am sorry if you were offended. My goal is to improve communication about planted aquarium. Not discussion.

Here is something you wrote which is a fundamental misunderstanding with most posters:

"What is a fact?"

A fact is something you have done or at least can attribute to someone else who can verify it. Here is the way to describe facts from a post from Michael:

Quote: 
I haven't used Osmocote or similar products in aquariums, but I have used them for water lilies in ponds. A successful local grower of water lilies showed me the technique: put about an inch thick layer of pellets in the bottom of shallow pot, add a layer of soil, then plant the lily in the soil. This seemed like WAY too much fertilizer to me, but I found that I could fertilize once in the spring using this method, and get excellent growth and flowering all summer even in smaller-than-normal pots. Previously I was fertilizing monthly with water lily tabs. The results were not nearly as good as with the once-a-season Osmocote. My grower friend treats all her tropical lilies this way, and she can raise one to flowering size in a 16 oz. plastic drink cup without ever repotting. When the plants are repotted, the layer of pellets can still be seen at the bottom of the old pot. 
End Quote

Notice how Michael says what he did. He does not say what he thinks you can do. 
Facts are what you did. Not what you think. No one can argue with the facts!


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks for the info Michael, I didn't know that about the outer shell. I have done a few tests on the water parameters, and my nitrates are around 7-8 steady (however I feed heavy). I have GSA, which could suggest too much NO3/not enough PO4. I'll do some more tests a few days after a water change soon. 

The thing to keep in mind with this method is that the amount of pellets per sq.foot is pretty small. It seems like more capsules could be used than one would think. If buried 2-3" deep, it really delivers right to the roots, and doesn't allow for much seepage into the water column. I'll confirm that with some testing when I find time. perhaps with a plastic container in gravel, and testing the water over a few days.

Ray: I hear where you're coming from on the facts side of things, but one thing I love about this site is the ability to throw out conjectures and hypotheses for other's critiquing, and then being able to test and confirm/deny those hypotheses. I am still in the testing stage of this process, and therefore I'm suggesting and putting forth ideas for others to think of, test, and confirm or deny. It helps to have discussion about things like these as I'm sure you're well aware of, especially in areas that haven't had as much attention as others. Had I waited 3 months, I could've put forth a post with all facts, and assessed my previous thoughts, but frankly I couldn't wait to get the ideas out there.


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## MrBlackThumb (Aug 30, 2005)

Flashbang, please update us on how long the nitrates in your aquarium stay 7-8 ppm. You're my guinea pig. I like to try osmocote. I have only tried PPS pro (with pretty good result) in my 125g and MTS in my 75g (with even much better result). Thanks!


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## countcoco (Dec 28, 2010)

I also agree with the general drift of this thread. IME, a nutrient rich substrate combined with good trace ferts in the water column and K is the best overall method for growing aquatic plants.

An experienced hobbyist working with ro water can easily control nutrient concentrations within the water column, but not in the substrate. Some will argue that a substrate with a high cec will absorb a lot of the nutrients contained in the water column, but there is simply no way for a hobbyist to test this. 

This would explain the success that hobbyists have experienced using the ADA substrate and fert system. In the most recent AGA competition, very few contestants actually dosed N or P via the water column despite using incredibly high light and pressurized co2 in heavily planted tanks. I don't think anyone used an EI type system.

It is clear that flooding the water column with ferts is rapidly becoming an outdated method of providing nutrients in a planted tank. This probably explains why they seem so defensive whenever anyone questions their methods.


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

I completely agree with you countcoco. Now having switched from E.I. for a few months now, my GDA has almost gone completely away. 

I set up a 10 gallon in my signature with Aquasoil, and I have more runners from my hairgrass in a month than I had in 3-4 months in my flourite based E.I. 75 gallon. It is absolutely insane how good the aquasoil is for plant growth. 

The aim of this thread is to find alternatives for those who can't afford aquasoil in larger tanks, and make that method replicable for others. 

I think my initial dose of 1 capsule per 9sq. inches is a little lean. I think it's more like 4-5 sq inches for 1 capsule.


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## OTPT (Sep 27, 2010)

countcoco said:


> --It is clear that flooding the water column with ferts is rapidly becoming an outdated method of providing nutrients in a planted tank. This probably explains why they seem so defensive whenever anyone questions their methods.


Not quite clear to me that's it's outdated. 
http://www.littlegreencorner.com/gallery_robertus_beyonddarkness.html


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## countcoco (Dec 28, 2010)

OTPT said:


> Not quite clear to me that's it's outdated.
> http://www.littlegreencorner.com/gallery_robertus_beyonddarkness.html


Just because someone is dosing dry ferts doesn't mean they're doing so in EI concentrations. Most Dutch hobbyists dose dry, but they would never do so in 20-5-20 concentrations.


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## OTPT (Sep 27, 2010)

countcoco said:


> Just because someone is dosing dry ferts doesn't mean they're doing so in EI concentrations. Most Dutch hobbyists dose dry, but they would never do so in 20-5-20 concentrations.


Well, it's EI.
http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/search/label/3ft - Beyond Darkness


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## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm not sure why E.I was used in that tank. They're all fairly fast growing, simple plants. Simply using aquasoil would probably yield the same if not better results. However, the cost can be prohibitive for many people...


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

> [flashbang009;581823]
> I'm not sure why E.I was used in that tank. They're all fairly fast growing, simple plants. Simply using aquasoil would probably yield the same if not better results.]


I have been using a lean EI type regime on my aquasoil tanks, which are now over 2 years old. Without providing nutirient supplements (from an appropriate combination of water changes, mineralized fish food, and/or thru the suite of your favorite NPK + trace ferts -- either added to the substrate or water column), i would be concerned that the substrate could become too lean over time. BTW, I mention water changes because that by itself could be sufficient. Municiple water, or well water - varies *a lot *across the U.S. and throughout the world. Raleigh's tap water chemistry used to be so good that i could grow a large variety plants quite well - in fact, in fishless tanks - simply with large biweeky water changes.

Other very important factors in all aquarium plant discussions is the age of the tank and substrate... and how much if any algae do you want to see. The rules and results can be different during the first few weeks, months and certainly years.

Regarding Jason's capsule approach, that sound like a really nice idea for medium size tanks. ... and for spot fertilizing in larger containers. I suspect that alot of the capsule fert can leach out fairly quickly, and then enters the water column from the bottom. As long as the total amount is not higher than what one would add from the top,..even if the substrate is disturbed....i dont see a big difference..... except for the capsule's urea or ammoniated sources of nitrogen which are more likely to cause algae than NO3. In moderation, however, even that should be fine.


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