# Few questions: Rocks, Thick layer, DSM,NYC water...



## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Hi everyone!

I am Francesco and I am going to start a pico cube planted tank(PICO SET Aquarium Kit with LED Lighting 1.3W-6.500k and Power Filter, 1,3 Gallon).
I have read Diana Walstad's book and I find it very interesting.
I still have a few questions tho: 

1. I see that having rocks in this kind of tank is not a good idea, but I would really like to have a few. Do you think that putting 2 rocks directly on the bottom, before putting the organic mix soil and gravel would still be bad? In this way, the rocks wouldn't be putting pressure on the soil. Right?

2. I would like to have a thicker layer of soil at the back of the tank but this would conflict with the "1inch potting mix+1inch gravel" rule. Is there a way to have a thicker layer at the back and still not risking to damage the soil in the medium/long run?

3. I was considering to dry start the tank. Does the nitrogen cycle still start in a dry start? Are there any complications?

4. I live in Manhattan, where the water should be soft. I am not sure whether I should put oyster shells mixed with the potting mix or not. My final goal is to have Hemianthus callitrichoides, duckweed and some other plant that I am still not sure about + some crystal red shrimp.
Would the oyster shell be a bad idea considering that I would like to have crystal red shrimps?

5. Would using ADA Aquasoil Amazonia be a bad idea?(on top of the potting mix)

6. Would mineralizing the soil be still helpful if i dry start the tank or it would be no as important?

I might be missing some information that you need, so please ask me

If you have suggestions and advice I would be happy to hear.

Thank you!:clap2:


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

That sounds like a lot for a 1.3G Nano. ADA Aquasoil is a great substrate and is actually easier to work with then going soil. Using a soil-based substrate usually comes with light limitations, thus plant limitations and HC does like light. 

Your best bet for having an HC carpet IMO is to use Aquasoil and co2, although you might be able to do it with excel. Problem with DSM, is once you flood it the co2 levels won't be what they were before and the plants have to transition to submersed growth. If growth slows algae might set in.

If your going to use lower light demanding plants, you could certainly use a soil-based setup.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC! See my comments below.



FrancescoCube said:


> 1. I see that having rocks in this kind of tank is not a good idea, but I would really like to have a few. Do you think that putting 2 rocks directly on the bottom, before putting the organic mix soil and gravel would still be bad? In this way, the rocks wouldn't be putting pressure on the soil. Right?
> 
> *That will work perfectly.*
> 
> ...


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks a lot houseofcards and Michael for the quick reply and the welcome!

I feel that I need to give up on the idea of having a nice carpet of Hemianthus callitrichoides, fair enough. 

Michael, the two other plants you suggested(Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo' and Masilea) seem to be a good alternative. I think I will opt for the Micranthemum, since it looks to have smaller leaves and a lower height. (right?)

I really like the idea of putting tile laid to build up the bottom. Should I just put them in or I should avoid water and sediments getting through the split between the tile and the glass? (silicone?) 
Should I be aware of any chemical release from the tile?

I think I will mineralize the soil because, considering the small amount I need, is not going to take a lot of effort. I will just wet it and dry it at the sun 2/3 times, and add a bit of oyster shell powder.

The reason for using ADA aquasoil is because I think (from what I understood reading online) that it would be a good soil for the shrimp to "graze" being more porous, but I am not sure that this makes sense.

Other plants I am considering using are: Echinodorus tenellus, Eleocharis parvula, Eleocharis acicularis, Utricularia graminifolia, and Riccia fluitans (plus duckweed for filtration sake). This to let you understand the kind I like if you have advice or better option I am happy to hear it.

Thanks!

P.S. In general I would like to avoid using CO2.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

'Monte Carlo' has smaller leaves and looks more like HC. But it will get taller than Marsilea, and requires an occasional trim. 'Monte Carlo' is a much lighter yellow green than Marsilea. When you finalize your other plant choices, you could select the carpet plant that gives the best contrast with your other plants.

Most ceramic and stone tile is chemically inert, so I don't think you have much to worry about. No need to silicon the tile in place, just lay it as tightly as you can, avoiding big gaps.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I had no trouble with HC (_Hemianthus callitrichoides_) in a 2 gal tank that I started with the DSM. It was a good grower and took over the tank and kept going fine for 2 years until I took the tank down. It did not do well in larger tanks where it had to compete with Cryptocoryne and larger plants. However, it did spectacularly well in this small tank. Of course, I had no filtration and used very gentle air bubbling (one bubble every few seconds). You really shouldn't need a filter for this tank. I suspect it will drive out the CO2.

If you like HC, I would give it a try. The more species you can start out with the better. It's hard to predict ahead of time which species will adapt to your conditions.

If you use an organic soil, it will produce plenty of CO2 to get HC going fine for at least 6 months. Because this is such a tiny tank, you may want to use a less deep layer of soil and sand. For small plants, I would use 3/4 inch of soil and 1/4 inch of sand.

If you _Dry Start_ the soil, you are in essence mineralizing the soil at the same time.

And don't worry about the nitrifying bacteria. They'll be doing fine wet or dry.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks Diana for giving advice and reporting your experience as well!

I feel I like Hemianthus callitrichoides so much that I have to give it a try, it might work. And if it does not, re-doing a 1.3gallon is not a big deal, but rather a lesson learned.
If I had a bit more surface I would probably start both the Hemianthus callitrichoides and the "Monte Carlo" to see which one works better, but that is not the case. So I will keep the "Monte Carlo" as a good plan B.

I will post some pictures as soon as I start!


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Just to clarify my statements further. I didnt recommend the HC simply because it's not the easiest plant to grow without co2. I realize there will be co2 in the substrate but once it transitions from DSM not only will the co2 be different, but the plant itself has to transition from emersed to submersed growth. Because HC requires a certain amount of light this could be challenging when the growth slows.

The word challenging is key. If your experienced like Diane and myself it's easier to pick things up and make adjustments when your new at this you won't see those things.

Certainly you can try it, as you said it's only a 1.3G, but the plants Michael mentioned are easier to grow.

Just for the record here's one my older 1G setups with HC and no co2.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks houseofcards for the clarification. The message (was and) is clear; it is going to be challenging. But maybe with your help and some luck it will work. :smile:

Your photos are amazing and the setup is very similar to what I have in mind.

I just bought this tiles to build up the bottom an inch or so:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Bestview-Grey-Linen-Polished-Linear-Mosaic-Glass-Wall-Tile-Common-12-in-x-13-in-Actual-12-52-in-x-11-73-in/1000003330

It's glass so it should be ok in the tank and every tile measure 1.5x6inches, so it should fit perfectly.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I was at a local store today and I saw some very nice Seriyu stone. I checked online and I see that they alter the chemistry in the tank (higher Ph and KH).

Considering that NYC water is soft (I have read of people saying it is even too soft with KH between 0 and 2) and the soil should lower the Ph, do you think is a hazard to have a couple of those stone in my tank? I would get two, size 3x3x4 inches maximum.
I would like to have a Ph <7 so in the future I can have some Crystal Red shrimps.
Would the soil still keep the Ph in the wanted range or the stones will prevail?
Any opinion? Thanks!
(if it is better to avoid Seriyu I would probably go with Dragon stone which are Ph neutral)


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The crushed oyster shell in the soil will help with pH. You can also put some in the filter.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Here we are, ready to set this pico tank up!
I got the sand, the dragon stones, the Hemianthus Callitrichoides and an oyster shell today!

Last minute questions:

-How much oyster shell should I use in the soil? and how fine should it be? (I went through Diana's book but I didn't find an answer, neither I did on google)

-The dragon stone I have are pretty light, about 0.4pound each. I am planning to use two of them. Is it still important to put them on the bottom of the tank, before the soil, or since they are not that heavy I can just put them over the soil before I put the sand?

I am going to upload the picture once I am done, so you can give me some feedback if you like. Thanks!


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

IIRC, what I have read said to sprinkle a dusting of oyster shell over one of your substrate layers. I do not recall any required grit. When I think of OS, I think of the OS I give my chickens; It has all different sizes in it, from chunks to dust.

The thought on rocks on top of substrate is it will cause anaerobic pockets. That said, I have always had rocks and driftwood sitting in my tanks and have never had a sniff of sulfer dioxide.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank s2man for sharing your experience.

I finally set the tank up! 
I have taken photos of all the steps and I will post them as soon as I have a bit more time.
My only question at the moment is: is it okay having little bubbles of air in the soil?

I attach here just one photo to show you the result. (in the photo you will see just the sand, but there is soil too)


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## s2man (Nov 8, 2016)

I like your hardscape.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Looks good! Don't worry about the bubbles.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks Michael!

As you can see there is some unplanted space in the back, I would plant it with Pearl weed (Hemianthus Micranthemoides). 
I have read that it grows really fast and that is pretty and it tends to spread all over the tank.
Would it overwhelm the HC?
Shoud I wait until I fill the tank with water?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Have you thought about using hairgrass, Eleocharis parvula?


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

hoppycalif, Eleocharis parvula was my plan at the beginning. But then I switched to Pearl weed because I would like to have a similar effect to the one in the picture below.

Is there any particular reason for which you suggest Eleocharis parvula? 
I might try to plant both,Pearl weed on the back-left and Eleocharis parvula on the back-right.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

FrancescoCube said:


> hoppycalif, Eleocharis parvula was my plan at the beginning. But then I switched to Pearl weed because I would like to have a similar effect to the one in the picture below.
> 
> Is there any particular reason for which you suggest Eleocharis parvula?
> I might try to plant both,Pearl weed on the back-left and Eleocharis parvula on the back-right.


Why not try out both species? See which one does the best or gives you the effect that you like. You cannot always be sure that one species will survive under your tank's conditions.

Your sand layer looks pretty deep for these tiny plants. Their roots will have trouble penetrating such a deep layer to the soil.

And if this is a dry start (DSM), there's no reason to have such a deep layer. You see, by the time the plants cover a thin sand layer, the soil particles will be held together by the plant roots, soil mineralization, bacterial biofilm development, etc. In my shrimp DSM tanks, I did not add any sand during the dry phase. No need to.

Of course, if this is a regular setup where you add the water soon after planting, you will need more sand to hold the soil down. Even then, I would use a little less than what you show. I would get out a soup spoon and take out at least half of that sand depth.

That said, I love your aquascaping and the rocks. It's art!


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you Diana for your advice and for calling this pico tank art!!

The sand layer is 1/2 inch, and yes, it is too thick...
I will try to remove some of the sand and to make sure the roots reach the soil layer.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Here the steps. The white pieces you can see on the soil are chips of oyster shell. I also mixed some oyster shell powder with the soil.

In the last photo the sand layer has been reduced.


upload pic


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

FYI

For your next project to create height you can just put some rocks under the surface or you can use plastic egg crate grids or a product like this:

http://www.rainharvest.com/atlantis-52mm-flo-cell.asp


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

FrancescoCube said:


> hoppycalif, Eleocharis parvula was my plan at the beginning. But then I switched to Pearl weed because I would like to have a similar effect to the one in the picture below.
> 
> Is there any particular reason for which you suggest Eleocharis parvula?
> I might try to plant both,Pearl weed on the back-left and Eleocharis parvula on the back-right.


I suggested the Eleocharis only because I have seen others use it effectively with an HC carpet. It is a contrast in leaf shape. Of course you should use the plants that will make the finished tank look like you want it to look. Satisfying ourselves with our aquascapes is the primary criteria, in my opinion.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

FrancescoCube said:


> Here the steps. The white pieces you can see on the soil are chips of oyster shell. I also mixed some oyster shell powder with the soil.
> 
> In the last photo the sand layer has been reduced.


Looks good!

I personally like the tiles, because you can stack them so neatly and orderly. Also, the tiles are inert. I would not use a plastic support unless I was very confident that the material would not rot over time and leach chemicals into the water.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> Looks good!
> 
> I personally like the tiles, because you can stack them so neatly and orderly. Also, the tiles are inert. I would not use a plastic support unless I was very confident that the material would not rot over time and leach chemicals into the water.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with plastic support. They're even used in saltwater systems. I and countless others have used them for years without issue, so unless you've personally used them the actual experience of others counts for much more.

The plastic supports are also easily cut to customize an aquascape and can be stacked on top of each other for different heights.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good to know. Thanks for your input.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Some updates: the HC is slowly growing and it looks healthy. (see photo)

I am planning to plant some Hemianthus micranthemoides, but I don't know when.
Should I wait a bit more and wait till I fill the tank with water?(I am not sure whether I can put it in during the dry phase since the stem does not look too supportive, but maybe is even better to introduce it now... I don't know. ) 
When would it be good for me to fill the tank with water?(considering that the 6 weeks that Diana suggests in her shrimp tanks article seems an eternity to my impatience desire to fill the tank  )
Considering that my final goal is to have a few red crystal shrimp in it, how do you think could be the fastest way to introduce them without risking? What are the steps that I should take?

Right now the light is on 14 consecutive hours per day.

Thanks!


upload an album


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Do you think that using Poland Spring natural water is better than using tap water? Since the tank is so small I might do it.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Anyone?:wave:


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

There is very little "truth in labeling" for bottled water. Here in Texas, Ozarka's "spring water" is actually filtered tap water. The only way to tell if the bottled water is any better is to test it.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

FrancescoCube said:


> Considering that my final goal is to have a few red crystal shrimp in it, how do you think could be the fastest way to introduce them without risking? What are the steps that I should take?
> 
> Right now the light is on 14 consecutive hours per day.


Keeping CRS in a tiny, soil-based tank is going to be problematic. CRS require stable, very clean water (organic-waste wise) and your tank will be neither. You could try Red Cherry Shrimp (not as sensitive) and see how they do, but still not an ideal situation.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

FrancescoCube said:


> Anyone?:wave:


In this situation, I don't see any reason not to use bottled water. It has the additional benefit of giving one "peace of mind."

As to dissolved organic matter, it is not always a waste product or detrimental. Some humic acids can actually protect shrimp against heavy metals.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Updates:

Two days ago I filled the tank with water and poked the soil to release some of the hair trapped in it...many bubbles came up and the smell was disgusting. Also, the sand in the front part smells pretty bad too, while the sand from the back part does not (the front part is more wet because of the steep).
The HC seems to be growing well.

1)I am now wondering: should I wait more or I can start to fill the tank with water and plant the Hemianthus Micranthemoides in the back part plus duckweed?

2)Do you any suggestion on which plant would look good in the back part of this little tank?
I think I need a fast grower since HC is not going to help much in the filtration...


multiple images upload


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dwarf hair grass (_Eleocharis acicularis_) and the chain sword (_Echinodorus tenellus_) might do well, stay small, and add some contrast. The more species you try out the better. I would wait on adding water, as this will make the soil even more anaerobic. (I waited 10 weeks, and by then, the plants had truly formed a carpet over most of tank.)

Also, I would keep poking the substrate to release the stinky H2S. It will poison plant roots and hinder the spread/growth of your plants.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks for your considerations.

I was thinking of what you said about the H2S. I post two photos of how the sustrate looks from the side. As you can see there is air trapped in it. Do you believe that is safe to keep going with it or is better to restart the tank?
I know it might sound too drastic, but it is such a small tank and it would not take too long. I would remove the sand and separate it from the soil. Then I would make sure that there is no more air in it and I would redo it and replant the HC. I have been very meticolous in planting it, making sure all the little roots were under the sand. Even tho is time consuming I would be happy to do it again if this could prevent problem in the future.
Is it necessary? Would it be worthy?



html multiple images


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

That gas in the substrate is probably mostly CO2, gas generated by decomposition of organic matter in the soil. Mixed with that is a little H2S, which may not be as big a problem as I suggested earlier. I would not tear tank down. You are less than a month (26 days) into the process and the plants are growing and spreading nicely. And since you haven't done this before, you/we are learning something new. It's kind of cool what you are doing.

But as you look at your pictures--excellent documentation, BTW-- notice how deep that sand layer is in contrast to your plants. I know you removed some of the sand, but it may not be enough. Those roots still have got a long way to go to reach the soil and their nourishment. The sand layer also makes the soil more anaerobic.

That thick sand layer does not need to be there for DSM. When I did my DSM tanks, I hardly put any sand on top of the soil. The reason is that I expected the plants to form a carpet over the soil. They--not sand--would hold the soil down. By the time I added water (at 10 weeks), the plant cover was so thick, there was no need for a sand layer at all. The plants held the soil together.

My article on own experience with DSM is in my article 'Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp'. If you haven't seen it, it's worth reading and is now available for download off of my new website. (I will start a new thread for announcing the new website today--soon as I get another cup of coffee.)

I used mainly garden soil, a heavy mineral soil. Your potting soil is more organic and may have a tendency to float when you add water. But I am hoping that the plants, given a chance will do the job--hold the soil together like a turf mat. Also, the soil will have fully mineralized by the time you submerge it.

I would remove much of the sand in all the bare spots. You could actually spoon in a little mineral soil, if you have it. For a DSM, I found that mixing soils was not a problem. Most importantly, I would be patient. You have a nice little tank and you're half-way home.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

It is always very interesting to read your comments Diana, thank you!
I have read your experience with DSM multiple times and for what concern the layer of sand that photo might be misleading. In that area, which is just like 2 inches long, the sand is way thicker than in the rest of the tank. This because it was the hardest place from which remove it, considering the rock close to the glass and the plants already in place. There, the sand layer is less than 1/2 inch, but everywhere else is between 1/4 inch to almost 0.

I tried to smell some of the soil underneath the sand and it smelled bad. Maybe I am just a beginner and that is a normal thing but I thought it would have smelled like the soil in a vase, almost odorless.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Okay. You've got a point. The soil shouldn't smell and H2S could be hindering the spread of your plants. 

I would introduce air into the substrate by poking it with a very thin nail or a needle around unplanted areas. This action will introduce oxygen into the substrate. H2S is only produced under severely anaerobic conditions. Once you let oxygen into the soil, the production of H2S lessens. At the same time, H2S will be oxidized/destroyed by another set of bacteria (H2S oxidizers). 

You mentioned that the H2S smell was worse towards the front where there aren't any plants. Plant roots release oxygen such that both the production of H2S is less AND its destruction is sped up. 

Eventually, the soil will mineralize and the H2S problem will go away. But you can speed up the mineralizing process by introducing air-oxygen. It cannot hurt and certainly would help. If it were my tank, I would be poking that substrate every day until it stopped smelling.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I will try to do it pretty often, hopefully, it will stop smelling.
Thanks!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sounds good! 
I just realized that a paper clip folded out would be perfect for this task.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I was reading your article again, Diana. I assume that you had air trapped in the soil too since you first put the soil in the tank and then pour water on it. Assuming you did, would you say that when we start a tank is better to have little bubbles of air trapped in it or should it be better to not have them?


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Keeping CRS in a tiny, soil-based tank is going to be problematic. CRS require stable, very clean water (organic-waste wise) and your tank will be neither. You could try Red Cherry Shrimp (not as sensitive) and see how they do, but still not an ideal situation.


Are you sure about this?

I am keeping RCS in 15 liter NPT (aprox 4 gall) with no filter, minimal water changes / refill etc, and I have not seen any issue _*in the long run*_. They reproduce fine. Sometimes I also put fish fry in this tank to save them from other fish in the community tank (adult fish can not be kept in the nano tank due to its small size).

I don't see why I could not keep CRS if I wanted.

Some "Organic waste" is not waste, but source of very much needed CO2 and "slow release" plant "fertiliser".

1.3 gallon is really tiny though and probably much more challenging than my 4 gallon


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## Z1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> That gas in the substrate is probably mostly CO2, gas generated by decomposition of organic matter in the soil. Mixed with that is a little H2S, which may not be as big a problem as I suggested earlier. ...


Once had a 50 gallon tank with several large stones. By mistake I put some dirt with relatively high organic content under the stones. This was probably not a good idea.

Anyway, after half year, I tore down the tank. Under the stones, I could smell very bad H2S.

However, I could not smell anything while the tank was operating and fish/shrimp were also OK. Probably the H2S was "sealed" under the rocks. This also suggested me that under specific circumstances, H2S may not be that dangerous.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Z1234 said:


> Once had a 50 gallon tank with several large stones. By mistake I put some dirt with relatively high organic content under the stones. This was probably not a good idea.
> 
> Anyway, after half year, I tore down the tank. Under the stones, I could smell very bad H2S.
> 
> However, I could not smell anything while the tank was operating and fish/shrimp were also OK. Probably the H2S was "sealed" under the rocks. This also suggested me that under specific circumstances, H2S may not be that dangerous.


Thanks Z1234 for participating with your experience!
I think I will get just one CRS for the first few days once I am ready to see if it survives, then I will introduce another 3 or 4. We will see


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Z1234 said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> I am keeping RCS in 15 liter NPT (aprox 4 gall) with no filter, minimal water changes / refill etc, and I have not seen any issue _*in the long run*_. They reproduce fine. Sometimes I also put fish fry in this tank to save them from other fish in the community tank (adult fish can not be kept in the nano tank due to its small size).
> 
> ...


Saying "I don't see why I could not keep CRS if I wanted" is a far cry from keeping them. You really can't compare CRS to RCS. There's also a world of difference between a 4G and a 1G, which you state at the end of your post, so I'm not even sure what the meaning of your post really is.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

FrancescoCube said:


> I was reading your article again, Diana. I assume that you had air trapped in the soil too since you first put the soil in the tank and then pour water on it. Assuming you did, would you say that when we start a tank is better to have little bubbles of air trapped in it or should it be better to not have them?


I don't think that the trapped air is much of a factor after a couple days. I would ignore this. That's because the oxygen in air is rapidly taken up by bacteria. (Bacteria, in general, love oxygen to fuel their decomposition, because it gives them so much energy.) All reports from pond scientists say that a submerged soil goes anaerobic within a few days. So even if you see air bubbles in the soil, it may be devoid of oxygen. Those bubbles you see could be mostly nitrogen gas and/or CO2.

So whatever oxygen the soil starts out with will be gone soon. That's why poking it every day will help. Your potting soil is undergoing very rapid decomposition right now and making it very anaerobic. The H2S smell is your best clue as to the health of your soil, not the size or presence of air bubbles.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Here I am, back after a while.

One month ago I took off some of the sand, I took off the rocks and the most of the HC and I made sure that the soil did not have any more smelly bubbles in it. I then replanted the HC in a very delicate and time-consuming way, but it worked. It kept growing as it did before.

Today I finally filled the tank with water and added Hemianthus Micranthemoides and a few little bunches of Eleocharis Sp., and I filled the tank with water.

Daylength is 14 hours with a siesta of 4 hours in between.

I submerged the HC a few days ago, and it is now showing some yellow leaves but I have read is normal during the transition.

I also put some plastic to delimitate the areas, since I have read that Hemianthus Micranthemoides tend to spread too much. I used what is seems to be the best plastic to use in an aquarium: the little arrow you find under plastic boxes and bottles contains a number, from 1 to 5. Number 2 is the safest and good to be used in the tank, according to this website:
http://spec-tanks.com/aquarium-safe-plastics/

The plastic I used comes from a milk bottle. I do not know if what I have done is something that someone tried before or that is very bad. In case it is bad I will take it out in a second. You can see what I did from this two photos:


upload pic

These are the photos of how the tank looks now: 




photo sharing free

Considering that my final goal is to have some shrimps in it (in my dream I would love crystal red, but I can settle for cherry shrimp), do you suggest to buy some parameters tester for the water?

Thank you!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The tank looks great! Food-safe plastic, as from a milk bottle, is safe in aquaria.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Looks nice, looks alot bigger than a 1G. 

Anyway I would wait a while and see if the HC and other plants not only survive but thrive now that it's flooded. The lack of co2 will be the biggest challenge to them, unless the soil gives off enough.

I'm not a big water tester, but in a new setup and especially being so small where parameters can change very quickly you want to keep an eye on it. Quick changing parameters are detrimental to livestock.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looks real nice! Thanks for the update. 

I think your shrimp will be fine, but it will be interesting to follow your progress after adding the little critters.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

looks really good!


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks to everyone! I will keep you posted.
Today I added some water lettuce and duckweed.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I tested (in the evening, will do again in the morning) the water in the little tank and I was surprised by the results:
pH 7.6
GH 5
KH 5

The water I use comes from the Poland Spring bottle, which I tested and has a pH of 6.4.

I was surprised by finding a higher pH in the tank than the one of the initial water. 
Do you know what can possibly explain this?

I do not think is relevant, but I put a red cherry shrimp in the tank 4 days ago to see if it survived.
It is now still alive. It seems to be ok, it is not super active: it spends the most of the time in between the stems of the Hemianthus Micranthemoides, and sometimes shows up in the front.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Poland Spring water very likely has some significant CO2 dissolved in it. That lowers the pH, until the level of CO2 drops back to equilibrium with the CO2 in the air.


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## backinaction365 (Dec 11, 2009)

Nice tank (House Of Cards) love the set-up


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Do you think is there a way for me to lower pH? Or maybe it is due to the fact that the tank still has to settle because is just 2 months old?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Why do you want to lower the pH? It is almost always much better to learn to live with the pH our water naturally has, than to try to manage the pH. CO2 is the one exception to that - the drop in pH due to CO2 is "good", a drop due to adding acidic compounds to the water is "bad".


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

hoppycalif said:


> Why do you want to lower the pH? It is almost always much better to learn to live with the pH our water naturally has, than to try to manage the pH. CO2 is the one exception to that - the drop in pH due to CO2 is "good", a drop due to adding acidic compounds to the water is "bad".


I would want to do it only because I would like to have shrimps in this little tank.I would like to have the pH close to 7. 
I also am not sure if the pH is 7.6 right now or more; the highest value with this API tester is 7.6. But it might even be higher.

I do not know if there are easy and secure methods to lower ph.

The HC is growing well, the little stems are growing taller and it might be time to trim it a bit to foster a thicker grow. Suggestions?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

If your plants are growing and your test shrimp is okay, I would not worry about the pH. If he's not moving, he may be just lonely. 

The pH will never get too high. As the pH gets higher, CO2 becomes more and more scarce so that plants will stop photosynthesizing temporarily. Then, all the bacterial processes--nitrification, decomposition, etc--that are constantly producing acid day and night will dominate temporarily. The pH may come down to the point where CO2 becomes more available. Then, the plants start photosynthesizing, removing CO2, and the pH climbs back up. This BALANCE between plant photosynthesis and bacterial processes keeps the pH stable. 

HoppyCalif's explanation of why the pH increased after you put it in the tank is right on.

Your tank seems to be doing quite well. Congratulations!


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks, Diana. I love to know all these causes and effects, and how the system balances itself! Awesome explanation!!

I may buy some friends to that lonely shrimp soon :rofl:


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Three nights ago I was staring at the little tank, and thanks to the flashlight of my iPhone I was able to spot a really fascinating creature. It looked like an anemone, but really tiny. It's green and it retracts when touched. After some research, I got the name of that thing: Hydra.
I think I got it from the lfs I bought the duckweed from. 

I have read about it online, and I guess I should try to get rid of it.
At the moment I can spot a dozen around the tank, mostly on the HC.
I see that people successfully use Fenbendazole, but I am worried to use chemicals in my nano tank. 

Do you have any experience with this hydroid polyp?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Hydra are predators that feed on very small invertebrates. They seldom cause any problems in aquaria, except in breeding tanks where extremely small fish fry are being raised. I see them in my tanks from time to time, but do nothing to control them and they never cause problems.

I suspect, but do not know for certain, that assassin snails eat them. Some species of fish, especially gouramis, will eat hydra if hungry enough.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you, Michael. I will check they do not get too many.

I have read online that Hydra dies if let at 104 degrees for 2 hours. 
Do you think there would be negative consequences on anything else in the tank? (I would move the shrimp out during that time)


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Temperature that high certainly will not be good for the plants. I don't know how much damage it will do, but probably a lot more than the hydra will ever cause to anything.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

My main concern is that I read they may hurt the shrimps with their stinging tentacle.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about the hydra. In small numbers like you are describing, they are just part of a natural ecosystem. The fact that they are there means you've got some protozoa in the tank to feed your cherry shrimp. This is good. Hopefully, the cherry shrimp can simply learn to avoid the hydra.

In my breeding tanks, the hydra population grew to huge numbers when I was feeding baby fish with newly hatched brine shrimp. The tank walls were covered with a hydra "fuzz." I used the heat treatment a few times; it didn't kill the plants, but it also didn't eradicate the hydra. The high temperature (104F) will kill the hydra animal, but it will not kill the hydra egg. Eventually, I learned to add baby brine shrimp to the tanks very *sparingly*, not just dump them in.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you Diana, let's hope that the numbers of Hydra will not grow too much.

Here some photos






best image hosting service


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beautiful tank, nice pictures, but that shrimp needs some companions!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

FrancescoCube said:


> My main concern is that I read they may hurt the shrimps with their stinging tentacle.


Just came across a nice article on killing hydra with fenbendazole. I hadn't known about this, but I suspect that it works. ("Horse people" have been using this chemical for decades to worm their horses without problems.)

http://www.planetinverts.com/killing_planaria_and_hydra.html

By the way, your Nano tank is just beautiful. It really is a great accomplishment. And you have kept a nice record of your progress with the pictures and information to share with us. Thank you for doing this.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks Diana for the link, at the moment the Hydra is not bothering me; it seems it is under control. 
I have some snails around as well now, they are tiny and they are under control as well.
Another funny organism in the water is what I believe is called Ostracods, but I am not sure. They are very small, like a grain of sand, and they "fly" around from time to time.
They stay on the glass, under the duckweed, and in the HC. There are not many by the way, I can spot 3 or 4 on the front glass, for example.

These are some of the new inhabitants. Seeing that 3 red crystal out at the same time is a rare event, very rare.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

So cute! You seem to have a lively tank. It really is a pleasure to see your pictures.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Any updates?


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Hi houseofcards, these are the updates:

Out of the three red crystal shrimps, 1 is certainly dead, one is missing, and one is fine. I probably did a couple of mistakes: I did a water change too quickly and I left a piece of food in the tank for more than 24 hours (a piece of the tablet). So they may have died because one of that two mistake, the two together, or another reason.

The cherry shrimps are fine, they molt quite often.

The hemianthus micranthemoides is doing well, while the HC is not doing great but still alive. The cherry shrimps are always in between the roots and I feel that's not the best for the HC.
The duckweed and water lettuce are good, I had to cut the roots of the water lettuce because they were 3 to 4 inches.

The parameters are:
pH 7.6
Ammonia 0
GH 4
KH 5

Do you have any idea to explain the death of the 2 crs?
Any suggestions for the HC?


image hosting temporary


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

This is what I said about CRS in your thread back in March



houseofcards said:


> Keeping CRS in a tiny, soil-based tank is going to be problematic. CRS require stable, very clean water (organic-waste wise) and your tank will be neither. You could try Red Cherry Shrimp (not as sensitive) and see how they do, but still not an ideal situation.


and this is what I said about HC



houseofcards said:


> ...
> Your best bet for having an HC carpet IMO is to use Aquasoil and co2, although you might be able to do it with excel. Problem with DSM, is once you flood it the co2 levels won't be what they were before and the plants have to transition to submersed growth. If growth slows algae might set in.
> 
> If your going to use lower light demanding plants, you could certainly use a soil-based setup.


It sounds like this is pretty much what is happening in your setup.

The CRS are not surviving due to multiple water quality issues that they need to thrive and the HC is not getting what it needs which is mostly enough light and co2. The fact that the HC is barely surviving means that it's dying leaves are adding ammonia and other waste products to the water column further complicating things for the CRS.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Yes, I agree. But if the HC stays like it is now I am happy with that. It is not thick and tight as in the photo of CO2 setup but still looks good to me.
The CRS has been an experiment which I knew could have failed, and honestly, it went beyond my expectations; I thought they would have all died within a day or two.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

If you like it that's what's most important, I think the HC will 'survive' to an extent but not 'thrive'. There is a lot of yellow in there which again is counter to what plants are suppose to do, they act as a water purifier. Dying leaves would have the opposite effect.

Have you taken any water quality tests? Also what is the temp in the tank and is it stable?


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

The water parameters I can check are as following:

pH 7.6
Ammonia 0
GH 4
KH 5 

Water temperature is between 72 and 76.

in regards to the yellowish water, I think that the shrimps contribute to that. The are behind the rocks has a very thin layer of sand, and the shrimps like to continuously "rummage" it, so now the sand is mixed with the soil.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

So based on those numbers very little co2 in the water column and not enough light will make the HC grow leggy toward the light. 

I didn't notice the yellow water, but yellow dying leaves will add to TDS which needs to be low for CRS. You can measure with a TDS Meter. CRS needs around 100 or so, i bet your's is much higher.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Given the situation, do you think I can improve it somehow?
I noticed that if I put another lamp close to the tank, the plants grow faster.
Is it possible that the light I have at the moment is too weak? It is a 3 led light 3W-6.500k.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

FrancescoCube said:


> Given the situation, do you think I can improve it somehow?
> I noticed that if I put another lamp close to the tank, the plants grow faster.
> Is it possible that the light I have at the moment is too weak? It is a 3 led light 3W-6.500k.


The natural method by design runs a narrow band, in that your relying on the tanks own organic output to sustain the plants and create an healthy environment for the fish. Too much light on a system high in organics will create uncontrollable algae. That is why your usually limited to lower light and some medium type plants. If you stick with those (not HC) they will grow and help keep the water cleaner.

As mentioned it's usually not the right environment for sensitive fish and shrimp types. I'm not knocking the system I'm just stating how it works for most aquarists.

On the other hand. A system that is constantly refreshed by changing larger amounts of water and dosing the tank with inorganic salts like NPK gives the plants what they need, keeps decaying organic content low by removing water and having FAST growing plants. This allows higher light and the ability to grow a wider variety of plants. This is how EI dosing and the ADA system essentially works.

It can be used across the board, the band is wide from low-light to high-light.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks houseofcard for the explanation.
I was aware from the very beginning that HC was not probably going to thrive and red crystal shrimp were not the best fit for this tank but so far it went beyond my expectations and if it keeps going like this, I am super happy.

The question on whether I could improve something was coming more from a place of making sure I did everything, not from a place of unsatisfaction (if it makes sense).


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Francesco,

You may be breaking new ground here!

I had no trouble growing HC in a 2 gal shrimp tank. Indeed, it required a lot of pruning! Picture shows HC in tank on the right. In this small tank, it didn't have to compete with the big guys--Amazon swordplants, Cryptocoryne, Sagitarria, etc. Description of tank setup (a DSM) is in article "Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp" on my book's website:

http://dianawalstad.com


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> Francesco,
> 
> You may be breaking new ground here!
> 
> ...


What am I missing here? Are we talking about the same plant. I don't see HC in your picture. I see what looks like HM.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> I see what looks like HM.


Same i dont see HC i see pearlweed


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

DutchMuch said:


> Same i dont see HC i see pearlweed


Yes, Hemianthus micranthemoides (HM) known as pearlweed doesn't have nearly the requirements of HC in terms of light or nutrients. HC only grows to about 2" in height, where as HM can grow easily to 7-10"


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I believe Diana posted the wrong photos from her article. If you go on the website she posted and open the article she is talking about, you will see the photo of HC.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I believe House of Cards and Dutch Much are correct in that the plant I had in my shrimp tanks is less demanding than the HC they are referring to.

In consulting Kasselmann's aquarium plant book (p. 297), the plant I had is _Hemianthus micranthemoides _(or "HM"), but it was sold to me as _Hemianthus callitrichoides_, so I just assumed it was what everyone calls "HC."

Francescho planted what he referred to as Monte Carlo and HC. However, if you look at the pictures of his initial setup, his plant in the background looks a lot like the same "leggy," narrow leafed plant that I had in my shrimp tank, that is, _Hemianthus micranthemoides_ or "HM."

There is a lot of confusion about these species, but I found a description at

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantedTank/comments/2ynfa8
 that I believe sorts this out very nicely:

HC, HM, and monte carlo are all different.

HC, also known as dwarf baby tears, is a popular, finicky carpeting plant that has very small leaves that pretty much requires high light and pressurized co2 in order to be successful. Very short root system, thus very easy to uproot. Many people like to dry start with HC so it can root. A rather overrated plant, IMO, though it does look nice. *[Note: Kasselmann (p. 362) calls this plant Micranthemum umbrosum]*

HM, hemianthus micranthemoides, baby tears/pearlweed, will also carpet in high light/pressurized co2. If neither of those are provided, it will grow straight up and can get quite tall. Has larger leaves than HC, though it's still small.

Monte carlo, micranthemum tweedei, can carpet in medium light/no co2, though obviously it would be faster to carpet with pressurized co2. Roots much better than HC. My carpet of choice at the moment. Has larger leaves than HC, but still small.


My take from all this is that the tiny demanding plants with round leaves are species of _Micranthemum_ and the bigger, more robust, narrow-leafed plant is _Hemianthus micranthemoides_. If this is true and we can all agree, I will amend my shrimp article accordingly.

Thank you, House of Cards and Dutch Much!


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Diana, in your article "Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp", at page 5, and page 6 (first photo on top), I believe that that is Hemianthus callitrichoides.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

AquariumPlants.com sold it to me as _Heminathus callitrichoides_ almost 10 years ago. But the narrow leaf shape and larger size suggests that it is actually "HM." So it probably was mislabeled.

Tropica shows the tiny, round-leafed plant as _Hemianthus callitrichoides_ "Cuba" 
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Hemianthuscallitrichoides%27Cuba%27(048B)/4477

Wikipedia says: Hemianthus callitrichoides (also known as dwarf baby tears, cuba or simply the initials HC) is an aquatic plant commonly used as a foreground or carpeting plant in planted aquariums. The plant is native to Cuba and has relatively high light and CO2 requirements to grow well in an aquarium.[1]

H. callitrichoides was first collected by Holger Windeløv and Eusebio Canicio Delgado Pérez[2][better source needed] in 2003 in Las Pozas, Cuba, about 90 kilometres (56 mi) east of Havana. Unlike the related Hemianthus micranthemoides, H. callitrichoides is thought to be native only to Cuba.[3]


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> AquariumPlants.com sold it to me as _Heminathus callitrichoides_ almost 10 years ago. But the narrow leaf shape and larger size suggests that it is actually "HM." So it probably was mislabeled.


So for 10 years you thought you were growing HC, but you were actually growing HM, based on your earlier post claiming it was growing in your tank, but it was actually HM.

You also stated somewhere that you thought HC was over-rated. Why would HC be over-rated? HC was actually very important in the development of the nature aquarium, made popular by ADA. It's small size created the right scale for nano setups that wanted to have a carpeted foreground. It became popular after Glossostigma elatinoides was the go to plant for carpeted foregrounds but it's leaf size was too big for nano tanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> So for 10 years you thought you were growing HC, but you were actually growing HM, based on your earlier post claiming it was growing in your tank, but it was actually HM.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> ...


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

dwalstad said:


> While I have to retract that I grew HC in my shrimp tanks, it looks like Francesco has done it with the HC "Monte Carlo." Thank you Francesco!
> 
> I see no reason why HC cannot be grown an NPT. Fresh soil organic matter gives off plenty of CO2. Given enough light and other parameters (i.e., no algae, careful conservation of water CO2), the plant should grow fine. [/COLOR]


Generally speaking HC is outside of the generally accepted lighting parameters of an "el natural" setup. It needs more light and the intensity needed would bring other issues to the setup that's why it's not a good choice. There's always someone that might be able to grow it, but it's certainly not in any ones favor to be successful with it, especially someone new to this, thus it's a poor choice or advise to have someone try to grow it when there are so many other plants that work better in the band width provided by an "el natural" type setup.

Growth is subjective, yes it's growing in the OPs tank, but not really the way most would want it to. It's growing leggy and to the light since it's deprived of what it needs to grow low and full.



dwalstad said:


> While I have to retract that I grew HC in my shrimp tanks, it looks like Francesco has done it with the HC "Monte Carlo." Thank you Francesco!


Here you lost me once again . HC "Monte Carlo"?, Monte Carlo is Micrantherum umbrosum and less demanding than HC.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I think it would be useful at this point to make this more clear by sharing a link or photos so that we can be sure of what plants we are talking about. 
Anyone who is 99% sure of knowing a specific plant, feel free to post here a photo or a link.
Thanks!


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

FrancescoCube said:


> I think it would be useful at this point to make this more clear by sharing a link or photos so that we can be sure of what plants we are talking about.
> Anyone who is 99% sure of knowing a specific plant, feel free to post here a photo or a link.
> Thanks!


There is 150% clarity on the plants. I don't think anyone is arguing about which plants are which.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> There is 150% clarity on the plants. I don't think anyone is arguing about which plants are which.


HC: Hemianthus callitrichoides
HM: Hemianthus micranthemoides
MC: Micrantherum umbrosum
i agree that this is not confusing that you got ripped off. What you have is Hemianthus micranthemoides... i think...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DutchMuch said:


> HC: Hemianthus callitrichoides
> HM: Hemianthus micranthemoides
> MC: Micrantherum umbrosum


Thank you for simplifying a confusing subject.

As I was about to revise my shrimp article, I carefully reread the article and then went back to my notes. I discovered that the tank actually had both HC and HM! Let me explain. In 2009, I started the tank with _Heminathus callitrichoides_ in a bulk purchase (2009) of "carpet plants" originally from Florida Aquatic Plant Nurseries. This plant had the round leaves and stayed small. I believe that it truly was HC, since Florida Aquatic Plant Nurseries would have been selling this same species to aquascapers, a very discerning group of people. The HC grew very well both with the dry start and after submergence. Later on, I added a little _H. micranthemoides_ that I had from another tank. Because it was a larger, more robust plant, I put it in the back of the tank. I have attached a photo taken on Jan. 26, 2010. It shows HC in the foreground and some HM in the background. Two years later, I lost interest in this project and apparently HM took over the tank. Not surprising, in that HM is more robust. Thus, the 2012 photo that I showed on my earlier post on APC showed only HM!

In summary, I believe that I did grow HC. HC is not that difficult a plant to grow if it is grown under the right conditions (no algae, high light, and protected from competition from more robust plants like HM). HC was discovered in 2003 growing in Cuba. Apparently, it was doing just fine in a natural setting (i.e., no CO2 injection or artificial fertilizers). I am going to bet that it had found a little environmental niche in Cuba where it didn't have to compete with more robust aquatic plants.

Thus, while most people associate NPTs with robust plants and beginning hobbyists, I see no reason why HC cannot be grown by more advanced hobbyists in an NPT such as Francesco has done. (If Francesco had HM, it is apparently also, according to Christel Kasselmann a finicky, difficult-to-grow plant.) My shrimp article ('Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp') describes how to do it. Article is available at: http://dianawalstad.com


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Yes Diana, that is what I was saying in my past comments: I was pretty sure there was HC in your tanks, that is why I got confused when houseofcards and DutchMutch were saying there was no HC.



FrancescoCube said:


> I believe Diana posted the wrong photos from her article. If you go on the website she posted and open the article she is talking about, you will see the photo of HC.


In my tank, I have HC in the front and HM in the back.
HM grows quickly and seems ok.
HC seems to really grow well only when I put another lamp close to the tank. I have been doing it every day for the past week and no sign of algae but a thicker, faster, and more green growth, so I am considering to buy a new light for the tank, even though is not the easiest task to find it for such a small tank.

I have also noted a difference in the shrimp's behavior; they now tend to come out way more often than before and they are not always hidden in the HM bush. 
I thought it may be due to the one or more of the following reasons:
- they are getting used to the environment
- they need more food so they come out to find it
- the second lamp is boosting the plants-> the water parameters got better -> the shrimp feel better
- the HM is getting too thick to be in


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for your input on straightening out this plant business. I sometimes tend to "second guess" myself.

That's so interesting about your observations on the shrimp's behavior. Whatever makes them happy, I wish they would tell us.  Are any of the females carrying babies? 

It sounds like your tank is a source of great pleasure. 

Keep us posted.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

FrancescoCube said:


> Yes Diana, that is what I was saying in my past comments: I was pretty sure there was HC in your tanks, that is why I got confused when houseofcards and DutchMutch were saying there was no HC.


Why would you be confused that we said there was no HC growing? This is what was said and shown prior to my statement.



dwalstad said:


> Francesco,
> 
> You may be breaking new ground here!
> 
> I had no trouble growing HC in a 2 gal shrimp tank. Indeed, it required a lot of pruning! Picture shows HC in tank on the right. In this small tank, it didn't have to compete with the big guys--Amazon swordplants, Cryptocoryne, Sagitarria, etc. Description of tank setup (a DSM) is in article "Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp" on my book's website:


That was clearly not HC which for some reason as experienced as she is, thought it was.



dwalstad said:


> In summary, I believe that I did grow HC. *HC is not that difficult a plant to grow if it is grown under the right conditions (no algae, high light, and protected from competition from more robust plants like HM). *


Growing HC easily in a high light NPT thinly planted tank is an Oxymoron. Pushing higher light into a tank like that will result in algae unless your experienced and very on top of things. I would not recommend it for anyone especially someone new to the hobby like the OP.



dwalstad said:


> I see no reason why HC cannot be grown by more advanced hobbyists in an NPT such as Francesco has done. (If Francesco had HM, it is apparently also, according to Christel Kasselmann a finicky, difficult-to-grow plant.)


O.K. this statement I don't understand. Francesco is a new this, his HC is growing very poorly (from the last picture I saw) and not helping with water quality issues for the shrimp that have succumbed in his setup. HM has nowhere near the light requirements of HC that has been proven out by thousands of planted tank hobbyists.

Growth is subjective. What's growth? When a plant is larger than it was previously? That's not the reason most of us grow aquatic plants. Most are not growing HC to have it grow leggy toward the light. They want a carpet that's healthy, clean and stays low. There's an aesthetic value to it. This grow pattern alone requires more light than the taller growing HM. Maybe that's why you stated it was over-rated, because your not seeing the true beauty of it in an NPT setup.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> HM has nowhere near the light requirements of HC that has been proven out by thousands of planted tank hobbyists.


True, HM requires low to high light (in my experience) and can grow really, in any environment... Carpeting usually takes higher light if possible. Medium to high. Depends mainly how on top of it you are with trimming. 
HC (as I hear) takes a really good jump in a high tech setup, (co2, ferts, the works) but im sure it can thrive in its own low tech environment with "the right care and high effort"


dwalstad said:


> HC is not that difficult a plant to grow if it is grown under the right conditions


Any plant is not "that difficult of a plant to grow" if its under the right conditions.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

I was thinking to maybe get a couple more shrimp. There are 4 at the moment.
I have a question though: do shrimp interfere with the biofilm? Do they interfere with CO2 production? I am curious to learn their impact on a natural tank like the one I have.
If you have any link feel free to share it, I would be happy to read about it!
Thanks!!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Shrimp consume biofilm


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Ok, that's what I thought. So maybe is better to limit their number out:


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Why don't you want the shrimp to consume your biofilm? That film contains algae, bacteria, and miscellaneous organic matter - it depends on your tank. It isn't contributing anything to the beauty or health of the tank, as far as I know.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Isn't biofilm what produce CO2? I feel CO2 is the weakest link in my tank, and I want to avoid something that might reduce it.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

CO2 is produced by organisms that use oxygen. I don't think any component of biofilm consumes a significant amount of oxygen, but I could be wrong. Diana can educate us on that.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Biofilm is a very complex community of microrganisms, some of which produce oxygen (algae) and almost all of which produce CO2 (algae when respiring, bacteria, fungi etc.). But shrimp produce CO2, and more of it milligram for milligram than biofilm. You tank is big enough for many more shrimp, and they will produce CO2 to make up for any missing because they ate biofilm. Plus, you can feed the shrimp which also provides nutrients to all the other organisms in the tank.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Awesome Michael, good to know! Thanks!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Michael you just made something so simple turn into a complex debate... wish I could do that lol


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

True! So Michale or Diana or anyone else, if you have more to add about this, feel free!
I am sure I am not the only one curious about it! :typing:


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Nature is wonderfully complex! Diana covers bacterial biofilms in Chapter 4 of her book. Biofilm is not just slime, it has intricate internal structure that many different species of bacteria cooperate to construct. It is one of the fascinating things that happen in our aquaria, even though it is usually invisible to us.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Michael said:


> Biofilm is a very complex community of microrganisms, some of which produce oxygen (algae) and almost all of which produce CO2 (algae when respiring, bacteria, fungi etc.). But shrimp produce CO2, and more of it milligram for milligram than biofilm. You tank is big enough for many more shrimp, and they will produce CO2 to make up for any missing because they ate biofilm. Plus, you can feed the shrimp which also provides nutrients to all the other organisms in the tank.


Beautifully put! Room for many more shrimp!

Decomposition of the soil's organic matter--just because of the much greater volume--will probably contribute much more CO2 than the biofilms in your particular tank.


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## FrancescoCube (Mar 2, 2017)

Hi everyone! It's been a while since my last update!!
I have been having this little tank for more than a year now, and I am still very happy with it.

The plants grow very slowly and they are not striving, but they live
The water lettuce is rotting and the roots tend to grow a lot, I guess there is a lack of nutrients. It's the only plant which seems to suffer and I am slowly getting rid of it.
The Hemianthus Micranthemoides also is not growing taller but is still green and healthy.

The shrimp are fine. Only the red cherries survived. The crystal red didn't (as expected).
I had some algae issue when I didn't do water changes regularly. It happened I didn't change the water for 2 months](*,) but this is also something I like about this bonsai tank, it really doesn't require regular maintenance and if I neglect it a bit, nature doesn't punish me harshly, it just slowly remind me to take care of it a bit more  . When I partially change the water every 1-2 weeks it seems that the equilibrium works well and the algae decrease.

Overall it seems like the time in the tank pass by slower than in the real world  The plants grow at their own pace. The equilibrium now is set to neutral mode essentially, almost no growth, and basically no algae/dying plants. Does it make sense? This requires even less trimming and cleaning, which sounds great to me.
I am fascinated by this tank which seems not to age.

I am always happy to hear your opinions and suggestions

Here a pic:








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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Nice update!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

What a nice surprise to see photo of your tank. I'm so glad that you are happy with your tank. It's lovely.


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