# 20g planted...Cichlids? *pics!*



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

Hi hi hi! One month ago, I transferred the contents of my 10g to a new 20g. I added more plants, substrate (fluorite black), water (duh), and a few tetras.

I'm interested in moving my small school of tetras to the newly unused 10g.

I'd like to keep a breeding pair of cichlids in this 20g. I've been testing levels, and am stable enough to add new fish at this point. Plants, fish, and tank are thriving! I plan to remove the moss covered "tree" in the back right corner, and replace with a stack of rocks to give a cave hiding spot.

What are my options as far as keeping dwarf cichlids? I've read up on GBRs, but am terrified to even try to keep a pair alive. It seems that they have a high mortality rate, and can be picky about pristine water conditions.

So, all in all, what pairs of cichlids would you recommend I keep in this 20g?



















Thanks!
Nate


----------



## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Apistogramma species of Kribensis (Pelvachromis) species are relatively easy to maintain and nice on top of that. Shop around though. I've seen them range from $6.00 a fish to $99.00 a fish depending on the specific breed et cetera available. The hardiest are the wild caught, which you can find from sellers here on APC if you know where to look. You might try checking out invertzfactory.com, as the owners are members of this forum and they currently have some wild stock available.


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Tank raised apistos would be good- wild ones may be a bit picky for an apisto newb but it depends. 
i would 100% say pelvicachromis. they are awesome, easy to keep, stunning, and breed easily. I used to breed several species and it was a blast.

P. taeniatus "Keinke"

















P. pulcher "Red" (I've been yelled at, literally, for calling them pulchers but that is what the meristics point to)









I don't keep Pelvics anymore though, moved on to different fish.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I'll second the apistos. Do your homework if you want spawns and viable fry though; some are more of a challenge not to breed, some take real work.

Rams can be stable, you just need to know your source; local breeders, and as close to wild caught as possible will give you far better results. Don't just buy them without knowing; there's a certain wholesaler that supplies a jaw dropping number of stores, both big box and LFS. They have done an amazing job of ruining rams for everyone in the US, and Canada as well.

Kribensis are a great choice as well, for every reason listed here. Keep an eye on them though; you'll find the odd maladjusted female that is content to kill everything in your tank including her mate, especially around spawning time.

Any Dicrossus spp. or Taeniacara candidi are also options if you're doing regular water changes. I wouldn't bother with them in that tank if you're trying to get fry out of them though; you'd have to move the eggs out to more acidic conditions to hatch them. Beautiful fish all the same.

-Philosophos


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Philosophos said:


> Kribensis are a great choice as well, for every reason listed here. Keep an eye on them though; you'll find the odd maladjusted female that is content to kill everything in your tank including her mate, especially around spawning time.


Just to round out the discussion, I've never had that happen and I've bred all types of pelvics in all types of tanks with differing tank mates. I'd say killer females is the exception more so than the rule. I wouldn't not get the fish because of this possibility.



> Any Dicrossus spp. or Taeniacara candidi are also options if you're doing regular water changes. I wouldn't bother with them in that tank if you're trying to get fry out of them though; you'd have to move the eggs out to more acidic conditions to hatch them. Beautiful fish all the same.


 Phil- have you kept this species? I've tried and good god, I hated it. It was one of those fish I've dreamed of having and when I finally go them they were finicky and looked like crap, even with regular changes with RO. My fish were F1's too. Just wondering what you've done with them. I'd pretty much never suggest them to a newb to dwarf cichlids. JMHO.


----------



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

I greatly appreciate all the advice, and have been hearing consistent replies since the beginning of my search. I'm partial to some of the kribs and apistos, but am extremely interested in keeping at least a pair or trio of dwarf cockatoo cichlids. 

Has anyone had experience with these fish? Suggestions?

Also: great pics of the apistos, six!


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Six said:


> Just to round out the discussion, I've never had that happen and I've bred all types of pelvics in all types of tanks with differing tank mates. I'd say killer females is the exception more so than the rule. I wouldn't not get the fish because of this possibility.


I agree 100% it's definitely the exception, and they won't destroy the tank in one day. They can always be separated or taken back.



> Phil- have you kept this species? I've tried and good god, I hated it. It was one of those fish I've dreamed of having and when I finally go them they were finicky and looked like crap, even with regular changes with RO. My fish were F1's too. Just wondering what you've done with them. I'd pretty much never suggest them to a newb to dwarf cichlids. JMHO.


Haven't kept them, but I'm heavily considering it. I've been doing my reading on the subject, and I find mixed reviews. Some people are getting spawning behavior and occasionally nonviable eggs in 6-7pH with weekly 50% WC's, others are having them die off at 5pH despite their best efforts. I wouldn't recommend it to a new fish keeper, but so many of us keeping planted tanks also keep up on our water changes, and push our KH/pH down.

Personally I wouldn't recommend a lot of fish around the F1 stage to new keepers; perhaps rams, generally not apistos, definitely not discus. Even the normally easy angel fish are noticeably more sensitive when you start getting close to wild caught genetics.

Now if you've heard something from people who breed these fish, and they're finding adaptation to local parameters is poor, then I'd definitely retract my recommendation.

-Philosophos


----------



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

LFS will only order cockatoo cichlids in groups of 30-40 since they have had issues with them. There is no way I can afford 30-40 fish at once...let alone the room to keep them. 

Buying fish online gives me the heeby jeebies.


----------



## HoldingWine (Oct 7, 2007)

I agree with the Pelvicachromis. They're usually not too bad on price either (P. pulcher that is). It is quite the sight watching a pair heard around a whole pack of fry. 

Not to derail the thread.... Phil and Six, have you noticed any extreme amounts of digging by Pelvicachromis sp? I was considering obtaining another pair for my NPT, but I remember them to be quite the little excavationists.


----------



## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Six said:


> Tank raised apistos would be good- wild ones may be a bit picky for an apisto newb but it depends.
> i would 100% say pelvicachromis. they are awesome, easy to keep, stunning, and breed easily. I used to breed several species and it was a blast.


Got to agree with all of this. Pelvicachromis are much less bother than Apistos IME and I've kept a bred a range of both. Beautiful colours and behaviours too.



Six said:


> P. pulcher "Red" (I've been yelled at, literally, for calling them pulchers but that is what the meristics point to)


This is very interesting Six. Why were they shouting at you? Were they trying to tell you these were _P.sacrimontis_? I keep _P.pulcher_ 'Red' and they are definitely a form of _pulcher_, not _sacrimontis_. I've seen _sacrimontis_ and know people who have bred them and they do have a red form too, but it is different from the red form of _P.pulcher_.

As to moving onto other fish - did you try the group 1 Pelvics? These larger species are a real challenge and much more aggressive. Beautiful too!

Also from what I've seen the reports of killer pulcher females are almost always due to people keeping them in too small tanks. Kribs will control the entire area of a 2ft tank. Some will allow some fish to survive in that and some won't. Give them a 3ft, or longer, tank and there should be room for fish to get out of the way unless they are too slow or stupid!!! Keep them in an 18" long tank and you could well have a bloodbath.


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

gonathan85 said:


> Also: great pics of the apistos, six!


Just top clarify- they are Pelvicachromis. I figured you meant that... hehehe.



> Not to derail the thread.... Phil and Six, have you noticed any extreme amounts of digging by Pelvicachromis sp? I was considering obtaining another pair for my NPT, but I remember them to be quite the little excavationists.


Kept them in planted tanks and never had an issue with them digging. They spawn in caves and may clear pits for the fry to sit til they are free-swimming and not substrate hopping... but that's just a depression, no more than a footprint in the sand would destroy a beach.



> This is very interesting Six. Why were they shouting at you? Were they trying to tell you these were _P.sacrimontis_? I keep _P.pulcher_ 'Red' and they are definitely a form of _pulcher_, not _sacrimontis_. I've seen _sacrimontis_ and know people who have bred them and they do have a red form too, but it is different from the red form of _P.pulcher_.


Oh yeah. I posted some fry on aquabid and a guy ruthlessly harassed me. Cussing me out, saying I'm a complete moron for thinking they weren't sacromontis. He e-mailed me with so many cuss words it was disturbing.
I wished the fish were sacromontis!
I eventually gave the breeding group to a friend in the fish club and he killed them. Oh well. Not very productive pulchers- they were really aggressive to eachother, but never to death.


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

I wanted to add a few suggestions that were not yet mentioned. Keep in mind that, all dwarf cichlids may become too aggressive during breeding to keep any other fish in a 20 gallon.

Easy fish you are likely to find at a LFS:

Kribs (pelvicachromis pulcher) - These guys are common, but an all time favorite. Get them in your tank and when they are comfortable they really color up. Very hardy. Easy to breed. One of my favorite fish.

Bolivian rams - hardier than blue rams. Peaceful. Not as colorful as the blues.

Keyhole cichlids - a little larger than true dwarves. Peaceful. Harder to find than the other two.

Others to look for:

Pelvicachromis taeniatus - as previously mentioned, hardy, beautiful color, easy to breed. I expect them to really gain in popularity in the coming years, but they can be hard to find locally. Mine spawned in moderately hard water and I have about 40 growing fry.

Nannacara anomala - beautiful color, hardy. Can be hard to find. The female is quick to lay eggs, but becomes a terror to the male when she does. Females have been known to kill males, so you will need a plan to occasionally separate them if you get a pair. Mine spawned in the quarantine tank and again in my 75 gallon and I've only had them for 5 or 6 weeks.

As for apistos, be careful. These are not fish for newbies. I have 2 groups of apisto cacatuoides. One group will not eat any prepared foods, besides frozen. Despite being probably the most hardy apisto, these are still sensitive fish. These will live in moderatly hard water, but are unlikely to reproduce successfully in it. I had some apisto borrelli that lived, but did not flourish, in moderately soft/hard water.

As for blue rams, I have given up on most of these. I am looking for some locally raised blue rams to give them another shot, but I will no longer buy imported rams or rams from fish distributors.


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

I should add a couple things regarding pelvicachromis taeniatus. There are many varieties. Some are hardier than others. Some breed more easily. Some require different water conditions (hardness, pH).

My p. taeniatus 'moliwe' have breed without much help from me. I've fed the fry baby brine shrimp and they have done the rest.

My p. taeniatus 'lobe' on the other hand, laid eggs in the quarantine tank. The eggs didn't hatch and they have shown no interest in breeding since. Maybe I should put them back into the QT.


----------



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

Kribs (pelvicachromis pulcher) are actually available as 1 inch specimens at the LFS. They look pretty colorless, but are fun to watch in the tanks.

I'm slowly being turned off to the Dwarf Cockatoo Cichlids, and might attempt them after trying a pair of Kribs. The Kribs will give me some experience with dwarf cichlids that I am lacking at this point. I'm not one to jump into something that is out of my league (cockatoos), and realize that I might just end up killing them.

Should I go with 1 pair of Kribs? Should I try for 1 male and 2 females?


----------



## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> Kribs (pelvicachromis pulcher) are actually available as 1 inch specimens at the LFS. They look pretty colorless, but are fun to watch in the tanks.
> 
> I'm slowly being turned off to the Dwarf Cockatoo Cichlids, and might attempt them after trying a pair of Kribs. The Kribs will give me some experience with dwarf cichlids that I am lacking at this point. I'm not one to jump into something that is out of my league (cockatoos), and realize that I might just end up killing them.
> 
> Should I go with 1 pair of Kribs? Should I try for 1 male and 2 females?


i did a trio and didn't go so well, two paired and i felt bad for the left-aside-lone-female...they had bunch of babies and the only regret i have is that they won't let anyone get close so the tank looked like crap...dirty and algea everywhere for some reason in their side. i just saw one new fry come out today, oh no! now it starts over...they are great fish though!!! and is so funny seeing the female herding the babies around


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

I'd just get a pair. Pair bonding it pretty easygoing with them. Some species do best if you give them mate options, im never had an issue with kribbies.

Good luck!


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

A pair of kribs would be a good choice. Just beware, you may become dwarf cichlid addicted like me and end up with 20 aquariums. Then you can get the cockatoos after you've gained some experience, and maybe some rams, and borrellis, and panduro, maybe some shell dwellers, a colony of julies.........


----------



## Jeanine (Apr 4, 2009)

I would have to go with the Kribs. I had a pair once in a 20 gallon tank and they did well. I think they are smart too. And loyal to each other. One time the female got stuck in a large shell she was using as a cave, and the male totally freaked out, swimming wildly against the glass every time I walked by. He got my attention, and I found her stuck, but still alive. He never behaved that way before or after. They make great parents. I love them.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

gonathan85 said:


> Kribs (pelvicachromis pulcher) are actually available as 1 inch specimens at the LFS. They look pretty colorless, but are fun to watch in the tanks.
> 
> I'm slowly being turned off to the Dwarf Cockatoo Cichlids, and might attempt them after trying a pair of Kribs. The Kribs will give me some experience with dwarf cichlids that I am lacking at this point. I'm not one to jump into something that is out of my league (cockatoos), and realize that I might just end up killing them.
> 
> Should I go with 1 pair of Kribs? Should I try for 1 male and 2 females?


IMO A. cacatuoides is as easy as you will get for apistos. If you can keep your pH neutral and water change 50% weekly (happens anyhow if you use EI) then there's nothing really to worry about.

Kribs are a rather agressive fish compared to south american dwarfs. Use hearty dithers, not sensitive tetras with them. It's hard NOT to spawn these guys, and at very least one of them will be good parents, if not both. Definitely a good intro to dwarf cichlids if you have harder water or infrequent water changes. Otherwise, I actually found them harder on other fish in the tank, but easier to spawn than apistos.

-Philosophos


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Yea, apistos are often pushovers which can make them delicate and hard for people who are new to fish compatibility. Just dont do some expensive wild caught rare .5" rasbora or something crazy with the pelvics. they are great beginner cichlids because they are easy to care for and not killers. you'll do great with 'um.

GL!


----------



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

Great advice everyone, thanks!

I ended up purchasing a trio of kribs, as well as a duo of chain loaches to control my exploding snail population. The loaches are a trial, and can be returned if they don't work out (although I believe they will!).

Here are a couple pictures. It was hard for us to sex the kribs, as they are juveniles of about only 1 inch each. I might have to wait till they size up a bit in order to properly sex them.

Here are some pictures!


----------



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

Well it appears that the new cichlids are doing well with one exception.

I suspect that I have ended up with 3 males instead of the intended 1 male 2 female combination. 

Why do I suspect this? Both smaller Kribs are being enthusiastically chased around by the bigger Krib. 

It's so hard to sex them at the LFS when they are ~ 1inch!


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I've found most claims of consistent sexing have exceptions with P. pulcher.

My method has been to wait for larger kribs, then look for brightly colored ones lacking a strong belly blush/bulge while still having strong colors and dominant behavior. Once you've got a male, a female is a matter of looking for one obviously full of roe.

You may have a male in there; the one with the strong dorsal fin but lack of a blush. I'm tending towards thinking the other 2 are females. Hard call with juvies though; colorations can change quite a bit within a matter of a month.

-Philosophos


----------



## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

You can sex Pelvicachromis of almost any size by looking at their pelvic fisn. The genus is unique (as far as I am aware) in that the females have club shaped pelvic fins (the second and third rays are longer than the first) whereas the males have the first ray as the longest and look pointed.

You have at least 1 male (with the spots on his tail) and 1 female (with the redder belly).

Once a pair forms please take the spare fish back to the shop as he/she will have a terrible time in a small tank with a bonded pair.


----------



## gonathan85 (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks! I found the method of using the pelvic fin shape to be extremely reliable. I told the LFS what was mentioned, and they were surprised. Up until now, we were using the method of seeing eyespots on the caudal fin to ID.

I plan on leaving the 2 females in with the 1 male until a bond is formed. I'm a bit anxious to see which female will be chosen. At this point, it still looks like the male is chasing both females when he has a chance. I wonder when he'll quit being so pushy, and choose?! I suppose only time will tell. I'm having a heckuva time trying to find someone who sell coconut shells as shelter...

Thanks guys!
nate


----------



## overboard (Mar 11, 2008)

I put three kribs in a heavily planted 20L, and I never saw them until I found the dead female that wasn't "chosen". I did have an unusually aggressive female.Zebra danios were the only dither fish that would bring them out, and the effect was instant. They never bred successfully in my tank, and she started tearing up her mate so I took them both to the LFS, where they put them together in a 100 gallon plant tank with an assortment of trade-ins. About six weeks later, the tank was empty, except for a piece of driftwood in the center with about two dozen fry nibbling and playing, and my girl hovering right above. The only other fish was a huge geo-something or other, those beautiful earth-eating cichlids, and it was cowering in terror in the far corner. So look out, her daughters will be out there soon...


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Geophagus are pretty shy fish for their size.

Buy a coconut and cut it in two. It's 10 times cheaper and you really don't need to cure it, just rinse it out well. Or use a clay pot on its side. They won't be picky.

GL!


----------

