# Auxins, gibberellins and zeatins, oh my!



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

The use of hormones in tissue culture has been used for years. I do know of a study or two that used gibberellins to try and induce Cryptocoryne to flower.

Apparently, our overseas friends (AZOO in this case) believe that it can be used in an aquarium environment. Does anyone have any information about these products?


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, I don't know the full mulm about it, but I do know that ADA Green Gain has hormones, I can't seem to find with ones exactly. I am guessing tha tis why it works so well.


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## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

Yes, Green Gain supposedly has hormones, amino acids and phytochemicals that are known to help the plant regenerate itself. It´s a shame that ADA won´t state what is in it but I understand that. Perhaps they have stated it in their AquaJournals?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

There are plenty of online stores that sell all sorts of plant hormones. Here's one:
http://www.phytotechlab.com

Some of these hormones should be disolved in Caustic Soda or other aggresive chemicals. You use a small amount of these chemicals so when added to the tank they will actually not alter any water properties.

The thing is that every time hormones are mentioned Tom has been saying they dont' work in aquatic plants by just adding to the water. Indeed, one can find info how they break up just by someone thinking of them .

To me plant hormones are worth experimenting with. Our planted tanks are very far from "natural" as it is so that's not really an argument. Amano uses "Cytokinin" in Green Gain, but that is the name of a whole group of hormones - he could be using anyone of them. Hormones may work but I'd say only in a tank that has the other parameters in line. We can't expect that to be the magic wand that makes plants grow and algae die.

--Nikolay


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## awrieger (May 20, 2005)

Art_Giacosa said:


> Apparently, our overseas friends (AZOO in this case) believe that it can be used in an aquarium environment. Does anyone have any information about these products?


Hi Art, do you mean info about what they're supposed to do? Or info about about whether they actually do what they're supposed to?

I use/d all three AZOO hormones. They're very small bottles (80ml). Use at a rate of 1 ml per 50 gal. Instructions say add after water change. But I didn't bother getting any more Gibberellin when I ran out about 6 weeks ago, so only replenished my supply of the other two, Auxin and Zeatin. I have absolutely no idea if they make any difference or not. All my plants have extremely strong root systems including all stems plants like Aromatica and Rotala Macranda (which I've read are difficult to root and can suffer from stem rot etc).

Here's an example of a Rotala Macranda stem I uprooted two days ago during my tidy-up. It was planted as a rootless tip cutting just over three weeks ago.










A very strong and healthy root system. But I'm not an expert on this stuff so I have no experience if this is to be normally expected just from good substrate ferts lights and CO2, or whether it is actually a result of the hormones. Or is it the substrate heating cable I use that promotes root growth? I just don't know. You tell me because I'm no expert! Personally, my gut instinct is telling me it's the heating cables and the 'warm roots' thing.

I've actually not added any hormones for over two weeks, so if it is indeed the hormones then it's clearly only necessary to add them at the beginning when planting the cuttings to give them a boost, and not needed as an ongoing supplement.

As far as what they're officially *supposed* to do:

*AUXIN:* Increases the volume of cells, stems, roots by stimulating cell division. Accelerates the growth and length of leaves. Increases the rooting rate of cuttings... (hence my suspicion it has someting to do with my stem plants' roots).

*ZEATIN:* Stimulates the growth of lateralbuds. Stimulates the synthesis of chlorophyll. Responsible for the synthesis of proteins. Delays the senescence of leaves and so extends the life of seasonal plants.

*GIBBERELLIN:* Encourages large leafed plants to produce more leaf surface area. Induces the extention of roots. Shortens the dormant stage and speeds up the growth of slow growing water plants. Used to "kick-start" plants whose growth may have slowed. Increases the effects of both Axuins & Zeatin.

So Auxin supposedly has the most effect.

Apparently when Auxin and Zeatin are used in combination, the growth of top and lateral buds is supposed to be hindered while the roots/leaves/stems grow more quickly. The result should be a more thick, less lanky, more compact and bushier plants.

And Gibberellin's main purpose is basically just to make the other two work faster/better, which is why I didn't get any more as my plants are growing fast enough I think.


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## awrieger (May 20, 2005)

awrieger said:


> Apparently when Auxin and Zeatin are used in combination, the growth of top and lateral buds is supposed to be hindered while the roots/leaves/stems grow more quickly. The result should be a more thick, less lanky, more compact and bushier plants.


PS. I have noticed that since I stopped using them, the Macranda is putting out more side shoots.

I don't know where they arrrive at the conclusion that less lateral shoots means more compact and bushier plants. To me, a bushy plant is one with lots of side branches so that claim doesn't quite make sense to me.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

The ratio of Auxin to any Cytokokin, there are many zeatin is just one, will determine the growth tip affected. If memory serves, ratio high in auxin promotes root growth while ratio high in cytokokin affects tip development


I am getting ready to experiment with willow extract, often used my terrestrial hortoculturists to promote rooting a initial development.

I believe green Gain is geared toward development of lateral shoot development after a major trimming.

Willow extract, gained from the boiling of crushed new growth of the willow, should contain high amounts of auxin and another cytokinin as the willow roots easily when its lateral tip is planted and it produces many sideshoots at any damaged area. Willows also hold on to their leaves for a long time at the end of the growing season, suggesting levels of cytokinins high enough to prevent leaf senesence(leaf loss).


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Art_Giacosa said:


> The use of hormones in tissue culture has been used for years. I do know of a study or two that used gibberellins to try and induce Cryptocoryne to flower.
> 
> Apparently, our overseas friends (AZOO in this case) believe that it can be used in an aquarium environment. Does anyone have any information about these products?


Sure, they don't do squat to any submersed aquatic plants.
I dare ya to ask me how I know.
I've used them, both Azoo's and my lab's.
I personally know Dr Kane who is one of the very few researchers that has done anything with hormones and aquatic plants and he'll tell you the same thing.

Next year's plant fest will include his research into Tissue culture at UF.

Hormones can have a one time effect and mainly on newly grafted cuttings/terrestrial plants for flowering or increased fruit(eg gibbing the graphes before harvest).

I've never seen anything significant and would certainly challenge anyone claiming otherwise. I tried it a dozen times and did a pretty good job of looking for anything significant with vegetative growth differences.

I never saw a thing.
Maybe I'm blind, but not likely. 
If something is so darn subtle, it's not worth your $$.

My advice, save your money, or be a sucker.
They will not hurt, but they will not help.
Many useless products in this trade can make that claim.

I have some fresh squeezed snake oil I can sell you.

BTW, you folks really have the itch, simply use the Super Thrive.
Probably a better deal than the Azoo stuff.
Wonder why it makes bigger fruits, seeds and flowers?
Are those things we are trying to grow?
Nope.

Save your time and $, focus on the basics repeatedly, get nice testing equipment, redo the CO2 system, do a water change, scrub the tank a few times and clean the filter.

We discussed them extensively in grad course on Plant Metabolism but the bottom line is that they are not going to do much of anything for a submersed aquatic plant. To say otherwise is a speculation and a very weak one at best, at worst, just plain fluff and marketing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## awrieger (May 20, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I've never seen anything significant and would certainly challenge anyone claiming otherwise. I tried it a dozen times and did a pretty good job of looking for anything significant with vegetative growth differences.
> 
> I never saw a thing.
> Maybe I'm blind, but not likely.
> If something is so darn subtle, it's not worth your $$.


So how come I'm noticing the lateral shoots on my Rotala over the last few weeks now I've stopped using them? Whereas in all the time I've been using them til now, the Rotala always stayed as a single stem all the way to the surface. A difference so noticable I actually say to myself "lookie the side shoots!". No other factor has changed in my tank in that time.

Mind you, I'm actually arguing against using them now if they do indeed work at all, because that means this stuff was actually giving me growth patterns I didn't want. Laterals is what I want. And now I got 'em where I never before. *do the lateral dance* :rock:



plantbrain said:


> Hormones can have a one time effect and mainly on newly grafted cuttings/terrestrial plants for flowering or increased fruit(eg gibbing the graphes before harvest).


So then there's the terrestrial rooting powder new cuttings are dipped into to promote new root growth. So what's to stop the same effect by instead of adding this AZOO stuff to the tank, the base of a stem is simply dipped into the bottle as per the terrestrial technique?



plantbrain said:


> My advice, save your money, or be a sucker.


Darnit, I'm now 2 for 2 in the plantbrain-thinks-I'm-a-sucker stakes. First my substrate heating cable, and now this!


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

awrieger said:


> Darnit, I'm now 2 for 2 in the plantbrain-thinks-I'm-a-sucker stakes. First my substrate heating cable, and now this!


LOL If there was a knee slapping icon I would have it here. You almost made me snot my beer out my nose. HA!


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

dennis said:


> LOL If there was a knee slapping icon I would have it here. You almost made me snot my beer out my nose. HA!


Would you then drink it back up?? beer is precious you know..lol okay i admit.. a little off topic..


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

While you might assume you have made no changes to the tank, can you show that to be the case?

There's another way though.....

If I add it to my tank will I get the same results?
You need to do it *purposefully*, not after the fact haphazardly.

I could say NO3 causes GW or PO4 causes algae with that same type of thinking.

I'd be wrong, but if I followed that same logic, that would be my position.

Concentration is greatly reduced when added to the entire water volume but most indications show the concentration is not particularly important for terrestrial plants and we know even less about aquatics.
Still, that much dilution is huge!

FYI, I've gotten excellent side shoots without hormones in R macrandra.
this occurs more and more as the plant grows taller.
So is it the hormones alone? My plants are doing it without me adding the hormones.

Give the plants the basic building blocks and they do the rest just fine.

If you seek more fine tuning of the tank and growth, try messing with CO2.

Of all the things to tweak and re check, that is the primary parameter.

If you desire to use hormones, try a dip rather than whole tank treatments, dip the cutting into the rooting hormones, you can buy these same hormones at any local nursey for much cheaper and see what you think.

You'll get better usage and it will cost less.

I have done this but have not noted anything growth wise, except with the Crypts flowering production rate in emersed culture. It was only a one time thing also, afterwhich it no longer had any effect.

If you believe it works, bully for you, but I sure don't and have not seen anything that suggest it does.

Obviously I've tried a few methods that many here have not,and I've used it for a few years/studied it etc.

Belief is a marketable product and is something many new and semi new folks fall prey to.
I believe otherwise and spend my $ on test meters and nice tanks and simple good routine methods. And they work and grow any plant to a very high level.

I recently got a nice PAR meter and a K+ meter(accurate to 0.5ppm of K+ over a 0-50ppm range).

If you want to get an idea how hormones work on FW plants, I will be doing a review article synthesis later on the BarrReport. I have some clues that show some treands.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## awrieger (May 20, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> FYI, I've gotten excellent side shoots without hormones in R macrandra.
> this occurs more and more as the plant grows taller.
> So is it the hormones alone? My plants are doing it without me adding the hormones.


You've sort of got what I was saying reversed, Tom.

I was saying I wouldn't use them any more because I *wasn't* getting side shoots on the macranda when using the hormones. The hormones suppressed them, not promoted them. But since I've stopped using them, now I am getting lots o' laterals! 

So yes I do believe they work, but in the opposite way I would like.

For this reason alone I wouldn't use them any more. Except maybe as a dip for cuttings to promote root growth. But I'll see how this week's replanted cuttings do without any hormones. If they root as well as they were doing before then I obviously won't need any hormones at all then.

Looking forward to your article.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

awrieger said:


> You've sort of got what I was saying reversed, Tom.
> 
> I was saying I wouldn't use them any more because I *wasn't* getting side shoots on the macranda when using the hormones. The hormones suppressed them, not promoted them. But since I've stopped using them, now I am getting lots o' laterals!
> 
> So yes I do believe they work, but in the opposite way I would like.


I thought I read it right the first time and I did, oh well
I'm not sure they will "supress" anything, some have suggested it, I've never seen anything one way or the other.

We look for ways to kill/supress aquatic plants, but this(hormones) is not a good one.



> Looking forward to your article.


It'll be awhile but there is a fair amount relative to Aquatic plants and hormones... but not in the areas many would think.

In the meantime, the CO2 mist and reactor data is almost complete.

And I have multiple methods(DO/CO2, gas dissolving rates for both CO2 and O2 through the day cycle, degassing in reactor data, pH-venturi measurement differences, internal/external differences, disc, and 12 replicates) to support it. I also have noted and anyone can do this, small bubbles that enter and persist in solution inside the reactors for long peroids.

How is that possible without the ability of the gas to persist once the levels build up fairly high(say 30ppm)? No *other gas* is entering the chamber, just CO2 and some have argued that other gas is what is in those bubbles, yet if that were the case, why doesn't it build up inside the reactor daily?
It's so insoluble, how come it rapidly dissolves the next morning when the reactor turns back on?

When the reactor is left off for the night and then turned on in the AM, the bubbles quickly dissolve at the same rate as CO2 gas.........

No other gases behave that way that might be present and also lower pH in sample water(O2, Argon, He, N2 etc) and none of these gas dissolve easily where the sample gas does (less than a minute in the reactor used in the test vs over an hour for O2, the other gases are even less soluble).
So the persistant mist cannot possibly be other gases.

Know any good crow recipes?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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