# middle-of-the-road tank...some questions



## artgecko (Apr 7, 2009)

Hello folks,

I'm new to this forum, although I've been keeping both fish and plants for quite some time and I had a couple of questions regarding my 46gl tank that I've just recently replanted. I haven't seen a forum sub-section quite like this one on any other forum, so I have been itching to ask my questions to a more "naturally" minded crowd.  Had I known about the el natural method before I set my tank up, I would probably have gone that route, at this point, however, I've already put in my substrate and some plants, so I'm going for a middle-of-the road tank that isn't super high-tech, nor completely natural. Chiefly, I'm interested in doing anything possible to avoid having to put pressurized CO2 on my tank. 

I'll tell you about my tank specs first, then ask my questions.
46gl bowfront
~ 400 gph filtration (2 HOB filters)
temp 76f
ph 7
cycled tank
lighting- 96watt power compact fixture (6500k bulb) in a room with large windows so it gets indirect sunlight most of the day.
substrate- florite black "sand" ~2" deep

inhabitants: 25 harlequin rasboras, 10 brochis splendens, 1BN pleco, 1 Clown pleco, 1 betta, MTS, 1 p. brigg snail

plants: at present- hornwort, wisteria, lots of anubias on driftwood, and java fern. Will be getting some red temple, ludwigia repens, dwarf water clover, and bronze and red wendtii crypts in sometime this week.

fertilizers & such: been using the flourish line of products (and have used them in the past) flourish, flourish iron, and flourish excel - instead of CO2. I will also be adding root tablets by API to augment the nutrients already in the flourite sand.

My questions (please feel free to give me any input or advice you think would be beneficial):
1. Do I have any chance of doing a semi-natural setup given my choice of substrate and light that is a tiny bit over 2wpg?
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, then how?
3. Would increasing the amount of either floating plants or fish help this setup work without CO2 (and without a crazy algae bloom)? I'd also love to kick the flourish excel if possible, but I know that might not work.

Thank you for your help and advice! 
Artgecko


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

artgecko said:


> My questions (please feel free to give me any input or advice you think would be beneficial):
> 1. Do I have any chance of doing a semi-natural setup given my choice of substrate and light that is a tiny bit over 2wpg?
> 2. If the answer to #1 is yes, then how?
> 3. Would increasing the amount of either floating plants or fish help this setup work without CO2 (and without a crazy algae bloom)? I'd also love to kick the flourish excel if possible, but I know that might not work.
> ...


With all the fertilizers, good lighting, large # of plant species, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (to aerate the sand substrate), I don't see why your tank won't do well. Your sand apparently contains some nutrients to begin with and then you're fertilizing it with the root tabs. You're also adding Excel, which I guess produces CO2?

Floating plants are always good. They should do well in this tank with the good lighting and all the added fertilizers, especially chelated iron to the water.

It sound like you know what you're doing. I would just go with your plans. The results are what counts. 

Good luck!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Wow. :suspiciou
I have a 46 gal bow front. That I am considering planting. I was going to use a 96 watt PC. And Seachem Flourish products. And special plant substrate (Eco-Complete). And wanted to avoid using CO2. That's kinda freaky...

Anyway, El Natural may be changing my mind on that one...

Given your setup, I don't think there is much of a chance of going "semi-natural" (without breaking down the tank). One of the main components of El Natural (as I understand it) is using soil. Soil has more diverse nutrients (I think Flourite, Eco-Complete, etc. are mostly iron), and the decomposing matter in it provides the plants with CO2. You also have to much filtration for an El Natural, so your HOB filters would have to be "wasted", although you could use one to move water around and for mechanical filtration only. You could always break down the tank, put in soil, replant, and layer over with your Flourite Black Sand. I think the 2 wpg you're getting is enough for El Natural, especially with the sunlight.

Adding floating or emergent plants would help you maintain the tank without CO2... They have the "aerial advantage" of being able to pull CO2 directly from the atmosphere. That allow them to have fast growth and out compete algae while your submersed plants are free to grow more slowly without getting covered in algae.

Have you read (or heard of) Diana Waltstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist?

[Edit - Ms. Walstad beat me to it!]
It does sound like your tank is doing great, but you want to avoid all the fertilizing and what not, right? If it's not that important to you to avoid doing all that stuff, sticking with your tank as it is would be a lot easier. CO2 systems you can find for around $80 for a simple setup.


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## artgecko (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks for your replies!
dwalstad- yes, the excel is a carbon source... The only downside is that some plants "melt" with excel...vals and egeria densia..among others, as well as the expense of it. Other than that it has worked well for me in the past.

forgottenpath- No, I haven't read her book yet...just found out about it last night (but it's now on my list of books to pick up so hopefully I'll be reading it soon). Also, I thought about doing eco-complete for my 46gl but opted for the sand due to keeping the brochis...apparently eco-complete, like regular flourite, can be sharp and hard on the catfish' barbels. I have also used onyx sand before, but it doesn't have nearly the nutrient content of the flourite sand. 

Although this is a somewhat unrelated question, do you think that I'd be able to setup an "el natural" style tank using sand as the top layer instead of gravel? I will be setting up a 10 or 20gl shrimp / snail planted tank soon and am very interested in trying the natural approach since shrimp are so sensitive to ferts and addatives. 

Thanks!
Art


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't see why you couldn't, unless there is a problem with limited oxygen in the soil layer... But plants pump oxygen into the soil with their roots, so I don't know if it would be a problem... It would look nice.

Didn't know Excel would melt some plants, thats good to know in case I ever decide to use it.

If you set up your shrimp/snail plant El Narutal, DON'T USE SCOTT'S TOPSOIL. Apparently it's bad for tanks.


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## artgecko (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks,

I'll avoid the scott's...and go organic  Hmm..wonder if MTS rooting through the soil / sand would disturb the soil too much. MTS are great, but maybe not for all tanks. 

Art


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

I've never kept MTS. How deep do they typically "root" ? Maybe you could compensate with a little thicker top layer of gravel/sand.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

artgecko, glad to see that you're heading for el natural too. I believe you're the same artgecko I met in another forum 

Some people make use of Seachem Excel as substitute to CO2 injection. I believe choosing the right types of plants is very important to make el natural planted tank a success, besides lighting and substrate. Example: you don't choose light demanding plants when you have insufficient lighting. Your current list of plants seem to be ok for me. I am unfamiliar with red temple, ludwigia repens & dwarf water clover that you're planning to get but I am pretty sure that Cryptocoryne Wendtii will do well. Even if the crypt melts till it's bald, you should retain the root planted because usually it will grow back.


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## Kestrel (Mar 30, 2009)

I can testify to the crypts coming back after they've lost all their leaves, like Totziens said. I had some in my tank that had no leaves for _months_. Then I pulled them out and planted them in small containers with soil, gravel, and an inch or two of water and put them under some lights. Now, just a couple of weeks later, they have lots of small leaves shooting up, and I can see a day-to-day difference in growth! 

Sorry I can't offer any more advice, I'm also new to this. Good luck with your aquarium!


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## dianainOH (Mar 21, 2009)

If you are interested in adding some dirt to your substrate, I ran across a post (not sure if it was this forum or not) where someone was making mud ice cubes then shoving them under their gravel. I imagine you would have to be careful not to hurt your plant's roots with the temp change. Just a thought.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

totziens said:


> Your current list of plants seem to be ok for me. I am unfamiliar with red temple, ludwigia repens & dwarf water clover that you're planning to get but I am pretty sure that Cryptocoryne Wendtii will do well.


The clover should do okay, I had some in my 5 gallon hex with only 2 wpg, plain old gravel, no fertilizers, no CO2 injection, and it grew great and started creeping around the tank until BGA started killing it. I think scarlet temple needs high light, but I'm honestly not sure.



dianainOH said:


> If you are interested in adding some dirt to your substrate, I ran across a post (not sure if it was this forum or not) where someone was making mud ice cubes then shoving them under their gravel. I imagine you would have to be careful not to hurt your plant's roots with the temp change. Just a thought.


There are all kinds of threads on APC that explain/talk about soil cubes/packets... Just search it, and good luck reading through it all. But this may be a better option than breaking down the tank...


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## artgecko (Apr 7, 2009)

totziens-yep, I'm the same artgecko from the other forum...glad to see a familiar screen name here.  I wanted to try posting on a more...plant-oriented forum. 

The "red temple" I mentioned is Alternanthera reineckii v. "rosaefolia" I believe it is easier to grow than scarlet temple. I once had some in a low light 10gl (1.5wpg, ferts, and flourish excel) and it did ok...didn't grow much, but had good red color even under those conditions. 

I did buy some "scarlet temple" at the petstore the other day and it is in the tank at present...but I don't have high hopes for it as it does need quite high light. We'll see. 

I'll search for the threads on soil packets, etc... I have seen some substrate ferts called "balls" etc...I assume they're held together with some kind of clay enriched w/ ferts. I may experiment with those as well, but I'll wait and see how the plants do with just the API substrate tabs first. 

Art


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

artgecko, glad that we have met here. You don't have to explain why you're here although I am a moderator at the other site.  It's always good to get different opinions from various forums (I am in 3 aquarium related forums as well)  I stick with El Natural here because I can learn more about NPT.

A few of my friends have used capsules to add fertiliser into the roots of plants. They didn't plan to keep plants that required rich nutrients at the roots when they set up the tank. So this is a less messy option for them. Maybe you can try this method too if you're patience. It will be time consuming and tedious to add substrate into capsules I believe. I don't have such patience


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

DIY co2 is super easy and cheap to get started
bag of sugar
yeast packets 20 or 30 cents apiece or something like that
2 used 2 liter coke bottles
airline tubing
epoxy
drill
some wire ties - zip ties
2 empty coke drink bottles for bells
maybe $10 for all this - you likely already have most
anyway - diy co2 is easy and fun to play with - and best of all - dirt cheap - hahahahahahaahaha


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I have a 29 gallon "middle of the road" tank. It is gravel with laterite mixed in and substrate heating. I planted very fast growing plants that have good root structures and I let them grow emergent. Water sprite, fox tail and Dwarf Lilly work well. I also have lots of low light plants planted beneath the emergent cover. I don't have any CO2 or fertz and only 55 watts of lighting. I am heavily stocked and feed a lot. I have snails and shrimp to help decompose food more quickly. I have no filter just a pump to move water around. The flow rate is very important to plant growth and I have adjusted it's flow rate and path many times to optimize the plant growth.

I do a 33% water change monthly and my pH is stable, I have no nitrogens in the water and I have to prune weekly. I have to prune a lot weekly. Last week I did a gravel vac of one half of the tank and the plants on that side slowed down their growth considerably. I think now I am just going to stir the gravel once and a while and see how that goes.


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