# Soilmaster Select PH and KH?



## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

Just migrated fish/plants/canisters/driftwood to a new tank. Used Soilmaster Select (Charcoal color) as my substrate. Typically my PH from tap is 6.6-6.8. Post setup and transfer, PH is 5.8. Anyone else see this when using SM Select?

At this rate, my PH controller will not allow any CO2 in my tank (set for 6.1PH).

Thoughts?
__________________
120G Tank, Fluval 304 & 404, 2-300w Visi-therm heaters, Planted with gravel substrate, Greg Watson Ferts, Excel for Algae (when needed), CRS and RCS shrimp, (4) Clown loaches, (2) Angelicus Botia, (1) Kuhli Loach, (7) Silver Angels, (11) Cardinal Tetras
(3) Ottos


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

When I initially started two tanks with Soilmaster I found that my KH declined. I think this may have been due to the extremely porous nature of the Soilmaster granules. At first I replaced it with some baking soda, then I added half a bag of Onyx sand into each tank since its known to temporarily raise carbonate hardness. (I also found it on clearance at the store!) This seemed to help. 

I think the effect is temporary. Although I pretty much use EI for ferts and when my tank is doing very well, I don't run tests. I don't use a Ph controller for my CO2 injection; I just have it on a timer.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

SoilMaster Select sucks up Cations like crazy. 

I had this happen to my 27 Gallon tank when I first put it in also. 

I suggest reading Robert Hudson's excellent explanation of Cation Exchange Capacitiy on his website (vendor) 
which will help explain WHAT the SoilMaster Select is sucking up. 

Hint: Anything with a + charge.


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## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

Robert who? Do you have a link or anything?

Thanks,

Ted


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Robert Paul Hudson.

Aqua Botanic Aquarium Plants Sales and Forums

Go to the Beginners' Corner. He has some very good information.

He also has a glossary. I tried to find the exact article I had read. 
It's there, along with some other VERY good information. (I have not exhausted it all yet.)

My question is whether it is better to have the SoilMaster Select ON TOP of the soil
OR mix the two together to help with absorbing CEC.

Ted, if we wait; one of the others that have experience with this will come along.

I am not sure if we have to ask this same question in the El Naturale Forum for one of those 
experience members reply to this. (DataGuru and others).


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## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks Jimbo!

I posted in that forum with a link to here. 

Ted


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Oh....... You are one smart guy!

Just wait until the answers start rolling in! They are going to knock your socks off!

And if the chemists, biologists, scientists, environmental scientists all respond at the same time; 
your head will spin. (ha, ha) They really are very smart here. Just wait and see!


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Oh, and if you just want the answer; let the SoilMaster Select suck up the good stuff.

And then do a water change so it can suck up MORE good stuff.

And if you want to select WHAT good stuff it sucks up and stores - 
put your favorite plant supplement or nutrient in the tank/soil/substrate.

Oh, and later 
someone can explain the details with the 
subatomic particles, charges (ions and cations), chemistry, biology and all that really good stuff.

(Robert really has the best explanation I have read on the internet yet. And *I* understood it!)


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## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

Just in case, I recalibrated PH probe for SMS122. It was off, but in the wrong direction. PH read 5.5 after recalibration. Did a 50% water change and got it to 5.8. Will this adjust after time? I am afraid to turn on CO2 for fear PH change even worse.

Thanks,

Ted


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## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

Did some additional testing.

Hardness readings as follows:

GH -- 7-8dGH (125.3-143.2PPM)
KH -- 0-1dKH (0-17.9PPM)

Pre-move to new tank, KH was 1-2dKH. 

Thanks,

Ted


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## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

Someone please help. My PH is now 5.2...

Thanks,

Ted


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Something is not right about this scenerio. Either you are having pH probe issues you are not aware of, or the limited kH and CO2 is the culprit.

First, I would double check those pH and alk readings. What kind of test are you using for the kH? Are you positive it is accurate?

How old is you pH probe and did you test its response time with windex? Have you cleaned and calibrated it per the instructions. Have youtried it with all other electrical devices turned off to ensure that there is no interferrence?

Next, I woudl put some Soilmaster ina jar with your tap water and see how it is effected over the course of a few days.

I think I would also consider buffering your kH for now using Sodium Bicarbonate. Potassium bicarbonate may be even better since the K will readily fill up cation exchange sites and help to limit uptake of larger molecules.

An interesting observation, and one I do not quite understand here.... Carbonate ions have a negative charge, the same charge that the montmorillite (spelling?) clay will have. This clay is what Soilmaster is made from and naturally has a high CEC as well as a very large shrink/swell tendency. Soilmaster is highly fired, which makes it very porus. This is why they use it for ball fields as it will absorb and hold a huge amount of water based on dry weight of the material. 

But, I digress... The point is that the Soilmaster should not be attracting the (-) charged bicarbonate ions and it certainly should not be attracting the (2-) charged carbonate ions. It will want to attract (+) cations like K+, Ca++, Mg+, and NH4+. Soilmaster (and ADA stuff) may soften the water but that refers to the metal cations generally associated with Gh.

Did you wash or soak you soilmaster before using it and how long excatly has the tank been set up?


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## thadius65 (Oct 23, 2006)

I did clean probe and then recalibrated. I also used API PH test kit and it was lighter than 6.0, which is all the lower the test kit goes. KH has always been between 1-2. now it is between 0-1 according to the wonderful API test kit. I have not started CO2 since transferring to new tank on Saturday.

Thanks,
Ted


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I would do a 50% water change, or 2x25% over the course of a day. I would also add a bit of baking soda to bring the kH up to ~2degrees.


Did you rinse or soak the soilmaster prior to use? Did you use any peat in the new setup?


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## xcooperx (Jun 24, 2006)

im planning to put Soilmaster as the main substrate, im safe right?

what other things should i do, do i need to wash it before putting it on the tank, It lower the KH and PH is this temporary?


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## mas77 (Nov 15, 2006)

I don't know if this helps, but I have SM select and my kH fluctuates. In the morning I read 0ppm and in the after noon it read 120-180ppm. But my pH has not changes 6.2. A little lower than tap 6.4-6.6.


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## mas77 (Nov 15, 2006)

Oh! I do not have CO2.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm not a chemist, but: clays adsorb cations I believe. Cations are positively charged ions. Carbonates are negatively charged ions - anions. So, I don't believe that a clay substrate, which Soilmaster is, will absorb carbonates, thus lowering the KH. The high CEC of clays helps plants by adsorbing things like iron (Fe+) which keeps them available to the plant roots.

So, the question is why did your KH drop? Soilmaster is made for use on athletic fields, not aquariums. Things which would have no effect when Soilmaster is used as intended may have an effect in an aquarium. One obvious thing is dust. Just what the dust in a bag of Soilmaster is I don't know, but there is enough that I always thoroughly wash the stuff before using it. Others don't do that, and they have good success too. But, I can see the possibility of something in the dust causing the lowering of the KH.

Edit: Sorry for duplicating Dennis's reply. I didn't read the second page before adding my reply.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Ted, so you know, same thing happened to me when I first put SoilMaster Select Red in my 27 Gallon 1/2 Hex tank this past year. 

I don't remember the exact details of what it did to the KH and the GH, but it was very unusual for my water. I do know that I ended up doing one or two water changes 5+ days after putting the stuff in. 

It stablized. The SoilMaster Select got much darker. It filled up with good stuff. 

I read about CEC, Cation Exchange Capacity and what it all means much later. It was hard for me to find a GOOD explanation. 

Now after reading Diana Walstad's book as much as my Series 7 book (many, many, many, many times) I understand why DIRT has an even HIGHER Cation Exchange Capacity. 

But for now do water changes from time to time. You may want to use the Estimative Index for fertization. Again, the SoilMaster Select will soak the stuff up. Mulm will help too. Oh, yeah, feed your fish extra fish food. And it is okay to have snails. The fertilizer the fish make is good for SoilMaster Select, the plant roots and the snails will break down even further any mulm, extra fish food and the fertilizer the fish make and break it all down even further for the plants. 

When you completely understand it all - you may end up understanding that plants basically do it all - and you may only need a filter in the end to circulate the water. :smile:

Do partial water changes. Keep us posted.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

This is an interesting thread. I have used Soilmaster Select Charcoal (unrinsed) in two tanks now and have not had any pH, GH or KH issues. I did add KNO3, PO4 and K2SO4 to the initial fill water when I set up the tanks so maybe this had something to do with my results. I did not test the GH very often but KH and pH was tested daily for the first week or two with a Lamotte Alkalinity kit and a Hanna pH meter. I have to wonder about the validity of the test kits and methods used, both yours and mine 

As mentioned, a few small water changes may help stabilize things and adding some baking soda with the fill water may help also. If you are on a public water supply, it is very possible your tap wter parameters have changed. Utilities sometimes change what they add depending on the season and the source water used. My water paramters (GH, KH and pH) have changed between Spring and Fall for the past two years I have been on a public water supply. 

Have you tested your Tap Water for any changes in pH or KH?


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## mas77 (Nov 15, 2006)

I have not checked the tap water for a change in parameters. I assumed the it was always the same. But if the Soilmaster is soaking up stuff and it should stabilize, then there is not really a big issue. And the next time I use it,  I will be rinsing it.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Why? Aren't the small particles just as helpful and useful? Just requires patience to let it all settle down. Kind of like adding dirt to your tank! :happy: Takes a leap of faith. I've learned that the hard way.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

I've also experienced this lack of alkalinity in using Soilmaster Select. I initially used some baking soda to try and raise it, but after a few days, it seemed futile, and the fish were acting fine, so I just let it be. Currently, there is still no alkalinity in my water. Dennis kindly tested it for me, and came up with these numbers:

NO3- 44-53mg/l
PO4- 0.6mg/l
Alk- 0 degrees
Gh- ~8 degrees
Ca ++ 30mg/l
Mg ++ 16mg/l

He found an alkalinity of 0. 

I'm using SMS as the "gravel" layer over a soil underlayer in a 30 gal Walstad style setup. I had a huge flush of plant growth initially, and now its slowed down to a resonable, but nice level. 

I'm wondering if my addition of baking soda early on, coupled with the SMS somehow created an alternate carbon source? Hence, the uncanny growth rates (uncanny for low tech)? 

Thanks for the head's up on Robert's articles, I'm off to read those.
-Jane


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## nswhite (Aug 25, 2006)

I had the same problem in my 75gal after adding the SMS my pH dropped and my kh dropped but after about a month everything leveled out. and now I have no problem at all and all my water peremeters are good. I also added a little baking soda to raise my kh cause my kh dropped below 1 kh It wouldnt even read on my test kit. But like I said everything leveld out it has been 30 day since adding the SMS and I dont add anything except ferts now. Good luck


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

A continuation:

Technically, the Soilmaster should not affect the kH. Not in a direct way at least. Soilmaster, like most soils or clays have a negative (-) charge to the individual soil particles. There are only a few ancient and tropical forest soils with a positive charge. They are rare and unlikely to find their way in to most aquariums.

So for our general purposes, how *could* Soilmaster affect the water parameters. From the basics, Soilmaster is a highly fired (like pottery) montmorillite clay. Unfired, it has intense shrink/swell abilities. Often in the Southern US, Miss, Louisiana, etc places with high montmorillite clay contents will swell a foot or more between wet and dry seasons. This clay can be black, red, or whitish in color. Its shrink/swell tendencies make it good for absorbing spills (product called OilDri) and it is often used as a packing material around drilling bits to prevent contamination at groundwater/oil interfaces, etc.

Moving on from the factoids: This clay tends to have a high CEC ability. This means that it will readilly "absorb" or bind/attract any positively charged particles, called cations. Most metal elements in their elemental form, Ca++, Mg++, K+, Na+, Fe++/+++, etc will all be attracted to the negatively charged clay/soil particles, called anions. Technically, clay's are found in sheets. Regardless of particle size, if you look at the clay microscopically, you could see individual sheet like the pages of a book, with air or water and metals separating and binding each layer. Each clay sheet is a mostly repeating pattern of Al, O, Si, etc and if memory serves, a singe sheet of this stuff is made of a crystalyne structure sheets with an octahedral shaded sheet structure bound and sandwiched between two tetrahedral structural sheets. Each 3 layer sandwich is what you would see looking at it with a scanning electron microscope. The type of structure and the age of the particles determines the space and type of specific clay. It also determines the amount of space between each individual sheet. This space, in turn, decides what elements, wet or dry, can fit between the layers. For example, K+ is very small yet very strong. It can actually bind the sheets of some clay together so tightly that all the water in solution is forced out from between the sheets. This won't happen with our stuff but its a neat concept.

Regardless, in our water, many of these elements are free and many are not. For example, KNO3, when dissolved into the aquarium will immediately separate into the individual components of K+ and NO3-. NO3- is an ion and cannot be broken down by dissolving into solution. It requires a chemical/biological process to be converted into the individual elements. That's why you see NO3-, PO4-- and CO3-- always written together. They are the smallest forms of those ions. Ca++, Mg++, Fe++/+++ etc can be free, at least until they find some more attractive floating anion (-) adn bind to for insoluable compounds. Fe++ and PO4-- will do this. There are all kinds of rules and guidelines saying what will be soluable and insoluable with what. I won't carry on more with that.

So, what does all this mean? Long story short, Soilmaster cannot *directly* effect the alkalinity (kH) of the water. Free CO3-- has a 2- charge, bicarbonate, HCO3- has a 1- charge (H has a 1+ charge). So the negative soil and the negative carbonates simply see each other and try to stay as far away from each other as possible. Remember in chemistry, like with refridgerator magnets, like repels like.

Alk (CO3 adn HCO3 forms) is a buffer. In other words, it prevents water from becoming acidic by attracting and binding the free H+ cations that make the water acidic in the first place. Remember that pH is a measure of the free, or lack of, H+. Acid water (<7) has more H+ the OH-, basic (>7) has more OH- the H+ and neutral water has equal amounts. Carbonates and bicarbonates in the water will collect and bind as many free H+ ions are it has bi/carbonate ions. That is why water with higher Alk (kH) or bi/carbonates is considered more buffered. It can absorb more acid before the pH shifts.

So, here is where I am not sure of what happens. If Soilmaster is effect/reducing the kH of the water initially, I can only assume that it first attracts and initial cations attached to the bi/carbonates then later it attracts the H+ ions that would bind with the bi/carbonates. The free bi/carbonates are then more available to the plants as a carbon source or are more likely to form insoluable compounds with other things. My assumption also is that people who do not experience a noticable change in kH using this stuff are canceling out the absorbtion of cations by adding to the tank forms of K+ and CO2, creating more H+ ions that will combine with the the bi/carbonates and allow the buffer to stay in solution.

Where exactly does the kH go? It is obviously combining with some element or being consumed by some biological activity.

An interesting experiment for someone who adds NaHCO3 to their water and finds the carbonates gone by the next day would be to add a lot of K+, say from KHCO3 or K2SO4 and then try adding in a carbonate source and see if it stays. Also, as I have said before, I speculate that this is why ADA ferts are so high and focus so much on adding K+. I think the substrates suck up the K+ so fast that adding more is necessary. Don't know.

Anyway, the only way to know is to experiment and see. I realize this is in may ways a repeat of earlier posts, but I got carried away.

Lastly, if your having issues with controllers and injecting CO2 due to the kH changes, try a consistant bubble count, no controller and adrop checker style way of monitering your CO2 levels. It may take you a few days to really get the CO2 dialed in but adding x amount of CO2 will add x amount of CO2 regardless of the pH or kH. For example, if 2 bubbles a second of CO2 was good for the tank with 3kH and end pH of 6.0, then 2 bubbles a second will be good for water with kH 0 and pH 5.5. Using a controller, which relies on the pH and indirectly on the kH will not always give you the same amount of CO2. This is one of those situations where a controller will get you into trouble and why people don't use them with ADA substrates. Also, remember that as the substrate loads up and the kH starts to creep up, if you don't catch it, the controller will still keep forcing the pH down, adding way to much CO2 and killing everyone


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## nswhite (Aug 25, 2006)

Wow dennis thats some extremelly good information.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

WOW!

Dennis, thank you SO much for this insightful, and easy to follow explanation! You're a born teacher!

This is really interesting stuff, and I am intrigued by the parallels to the ADA products. This also gets me thinking to "quench" the SMS with a K+ source before using it in a tank. 

Thank you so much for such thorough and well presented information! I have a better understanding of what's going on now!
-Jane


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Dennis, thank you for this thoughtful post. Though I am new to aquatics, I am fascinated by trying to figure out why people have found ADA's aquasoil so effective. Too many have reported good growth for it to be the emperor's new clothes. Still, I'm a poor grad student and it is unlikely that I'll be buying the stuff anytime soon. I use SMS. Do you think that they have anything in common, compositionally? 

I am also intrigued by powersand. Some have reported that it has osmocote-like particles. Do you think we could mix a little osmocote in with SMS and replicate ADA's products? Am I asking for an algae nightmare? 

Again, thanks for your intriguing post.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hi,

well, right off the bat, Kelley, I'd be wary of the osmocote. Even the "foliage houseplant" formula has significant phosphate (N-P-K, ie, 17-17-17 would be for foliage plants, 15-30-15 would be for flowering plants and vegetables). 

Before I became an El Natural convert, I ran several tanks using the Quackenbush method. This uses a deep (3") layer of kitty litter (baked clay) with a sprinkling of osmocote in the bottom inch of the clay. There was a prescribed amount per square foot of tank bottom, and the article warned against using any more than this. That layer was "Capped" by a FINE sand layer, in order to prevent the nutrients in that clay substrate layer from entering the water column. The fine sand layer was intended to compact somewhat, and become a barrier. Plants like Echinodorus and Crypts grew like gangbusters in those setups, but I could NOT grow Anubias or Java Fern for the life of me! Perhaps they starved of micronutrients in the water column, I don't know.

However, SMS is VERY porous, and one of the great things about it is that it resists compaction, and allows a lot of exchange. 

Therefore, my guess (and only a guess) is that, in an NPT the nutrients from the osmocote would get into the water column WAY too quickly and cause an Algae Convention. Or, for those fertilizing the water column, it would throw the ratios of the planned nutirents off, and would be somewhat redundant to the dosed fertilizer anyhow. 

But, it would be worth doing a bottle test! I wouldn't set up a tank this way until I'd tried it in a bottle. Heck, I have some SMS, and some osmocote..... I think I'll give it a try! Interesting thought, though!


-Jane


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Try it, Jane and tell us what you your findings are. Together we can make our own miracle substrates for pennies a pound!!


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I wonder if everyone experiencing the pH swing is using the red colored SMS? I ask this because Mat is the only one in this thread to report not experiencing this and he uses the black colored SMS if I'm not mistaken. Could it be that the two are dissimilar in more ways than just color?

I forget the link at the moment, but there's an article where someone tested all of the various substrates used in planted aquaria and the black Turface had a higher CEC than the regular one.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

AaronT said:


> I wonder if everyone experiencing the pH swing is using the red colored SMS? I ask this because Mat is the only one in this thread to report not experiencing this and he uses the black colored SMS if I'm not mistaken. Could it be that the two are dissimilar in more ways than just color?


I do use the SMS Charcoal but have not used the red color so I cannot verify the readings. My pH readings were taken with my Hanna pH meter so I assume they are correct.

My situation may also stem from the fact that I did not rinse my SMS and I also added KNO3 and KH2PO4 with my initial fill water. Maybe the addition of a good amount of mulm also contributed to my lack of KH decrease?

I hope to set up another tank in the very near future with SMS Charcoal and I will make sure to do some tests over the first few weeks and post the results.



AaronT said:


> I forget the link at the moment, but there's an article where someone tested all of the various substrates used in planted aquaria and the black Turface had a higher CEC than the regular one.


I made that article a "sticky" at the top of the Substrate Forum


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

I've had the same thing happen to me. I just made a post about it in the El Natural forum. I use the charcoal color and noticed that my vals and anacharis were not growing or producing bubbles as usual but my wysteria, and swords were growing like crazy. I tested the parameters and found that my KH and pH had dropped but GH was the same. I resurrected my Emperor 400 and put crushed coral in the media holders. It has helped some. 

After reading this thread, I do believe that the carbonates are being broken apart and somehow made usable by usually non-carbonate utilizing plants (swords & wysteria), leaving few carbonates for the carbonate using plants (vals & anacharis). My crypts were unaffected.(do they ever grow?)

I'm glad to know that whatever is happening, it will even out and stabilize eventually. 

(signature not current)


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## echappee (Sep 15, 2007)

What is the status on this situation? I am considering using SMS as a new substrate, but don't really want to go through the problems described here. I have planned on using the Charcoal SMS, but will go with the ADA Products to avoid problems. 

So, my question is: Is the SMS going to drop my pH and KH to these very low levels?


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

echappee said:


> but don't really want to go through the problems described here. I have planned on using the Charcoal SMS, but will go with the ADA Products to avoid problems.
> 
> ?


First, I think you may need to do more research into the ADA substates. While I've read they are great at growing plants; they also behave very similar in dropping KH and pH. Additionally, during the first few weeks they release ammonia. Frequent water changes are recommended, as well as not introducing fish in a new set up.

Secondly, I love to use SMS in planted tanks. Although it's helpful to keep an eye on your water parameters, such as KH. It's very easy to boost the KH with baking soda. I find the long term succes as a substrate far outweighs any initial adjustments required.

I have one tank w/ Eco-complete (12 months running), another tank w/ Flourite (15 months). Do the plants grow in these tanks? Yes, the tanks look good, and the plants look good - IMHO  . However, I've also set up three other tanks with SMS! I'm much more satisfied by how the plants perform in the SMS. When re-planting it seems the plants establish and take off faster. When I pull up plants the roots look thick, extensive and healthy. (One of my SMS tanks has been running for 21 months; another 12 months; and the last 5 months.)


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## echappee (Sep 15, 2007)

Thanks MPM, I haven't ruled out the SMS yet! I have a bag waiting for me at the Lesco dealer in Portland, ME. He got 1/2 pallet in when I told he people are using is in aquariums. Must be a fan!

Anyone else want to weigh in?


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