# Redoing original "Walstad" tank. Need advice.



## ayeder (Sep 15, 2013)

I had set up what I was hoping to be a Walstad tank, but I messed up with the soil (put it straight into the tank and didn't mineralize it) and the substrate became anaerobic. That would explain why my plants just weren't growing at all.

So I'm going to tear it down again, and this time do it right... hopefully. I was curious if anyone here tried mineralizing their soil using this guide http://visual.ly/how-mineralized-soil-substrate. I never heard of dolomite or muriate of potash, so I'm not sure whether these are truly necessary. Also, my PH is like 7.6 so would dolomite be a huge no? I'm afraid it will raise it even more. And as far as muriate of potash goes, I plan on using it but is there a specific brand that I should stick with to make sure there's nothing else in it that will make it harmful to my aquarium?

And as far as lighting goes, I had 4 13W CFL 6500k clip on lights over my 20 gallon long, but because I didn't set it up right the first time, my tank became overun with algae so I removed a light. However, I am finally upgrading to pressurized CO2 haillease bring beauty to my plants, dear CO2) so I'm thinking I should be fine algae wise, as long as I plant heavily from day 1. That'll put me at 52W over my 20G. Will that be considered somewhat "high tech" and will I have to dose ferts regardless if it's a dirted tank already with some added nutrients? I want good plant growth, but I want this to be a somewhat lower tech tank. I'm kinda hoping to just top of the water, and turn the CO2 on/off as my daily regime. I want to ditch the filter as well and make it become a little ecosystem with a proper balance. And I'm only adding CO2 because I've killed too many plants, and this is my final breaking point lol.

Oh, and I'm capping the dirt with Eco-Complete. I'm not a huge fan of it though... plus I think the nutrients may have run out. Will the dirt provide enough nutrients or should I be worried?

I'd appreciate any help. This is my final attempt at a planted aquarium and I'm literally going to try everything I can.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

To be fair, nowhere does Walstad talk about mineralizing the soil, so you didn't set it up wrong because of that. I don't personally mineralize because it seems like a lot of work and I don't see much point/never had a reason to.

Anaerobic conditions usually result from substrate that's too deep, not having enough plants producing enough roots immediately when the tank is setup, and depending on the tank size, water flow may or may not be a significant contributing factor. Mineralized topsoil can go anaerobic as well for all these reasons.

I would imagine the dolomite is optional depending on you water's hardness.

The muriate of potash I would imagine is there because potassium deficiencies are common in these tanks compared to other deficiencies. 

That's about all I can say on that really.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

First, Ayeder, welcome to APC!

I see mineralizing soil as an enhancement to the Walstad method, and as a corrective for the over-rich potting soil that many people try to use. Walstad does not talk about mineralizing soil, but she also often uses natural topsoil, which is already "mineralized" for our purposes.

The infographic in your link was adapted directly from our Library article about mineralizing topsoil, so it is a proven method. If your water already has a lot of calcium carbonate (KH or carbonate hardness), you don't need the dolomite. Your pH suggests lots of calcium carbonate, but sometimes water utilities raise the pH with other means. Try testing your pH after letting your tap water sit with aeration for 48 hours. If the pH is still 7.6 you probably don't need the dolomite.

An easy to find substitute for muriate of potash is the table salt replacer sold in grocery stores for people on low-sodium diets. The chemical composition is the same, potassium chloride, KCl.

The soil will provide the nutrients for the plants, so don't worry about the EcoComplete (which doesn't have much nutrients anyway).

As far as the lighting and CO2 goes, I suggest you start off with the three 13W CFL and low levels of CO2. This will keep growth rates moderate and you probably will not need to fertilize for a long time, if ever. You can always up the light and the CO2 later if you want. I also suggest that you keep your filter, if only for water circulation. You want that CO2 to be evenly distributed through the whole tank.

I hope things go better this time, good luck!


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## ayeder (Sep 15, 2013)

Hey guys! Thanks for replying. 



Skizhx said:


> To be fair, nowhere does Walstad talk about mineralizing the soil, so you didn't set it up wrong because of that. I don't personally mineralize because it seems like a lot of work and I don't see much point/never had a reason to.
> 
> Anaerobic conditions usually result from substrate that's too deep, not having enough plants producing enough roots immediately when the tank is setup, and depending on the tank size, water flow may or may not be a significant contributing factor. Mineralized topsoil can go anaerobic as well for all these reasons.
> 
> ...


I decided to mineralize it mainly because I've read how many benefits it has to do it this way. Also, all the wood chips from my current set up floated to the surface because I didn't filter them out, so it gives off a very messy look. I was a little confused as to why my substrate went bad though because I did less than an inch dirt and about one inch of Eco-Complete. I guess that + all of the organics from the soil just spoiled. I'll be sticking with a 1/2 inch dirt and 1 inch Eco-Complete this time around to hopefully prevent that from happening. Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening besides poking the substrate and not having too much depth?
And thanks for your help! 



Michael said:


> First, Ayeder, welcome to APC!
> 
> I see mineralizing soil as an enhancement to the Walstad method, and as a corrective for the over-rich potting soil that many people try to use. Walstad does not talk about mineralizing soil, but she also often uses natural topsoil, which is already "mineralized" for our purposes.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've tested the PH and it occasionally changes. On the API test kit, it's kinda a different color from the 7.6, but I assumed it was closer to that. Regardless, it's higher at the moment but I know CO2 will bring it down. I just don't want to add anything unnecessary into the tank that's not needed. I know for a fact I'll need muriate of potash/table salt replacer. My plants suffer greatly from potassium deficiency, even when dosing Potassium 2-3 times a week. Would I need to maybe put more of the KCI than recommended or just stick with a light dusting on the tank bottom?

And good idea on the lights and CO2! I definitely want to get away from ferts if possible since I seem to cause more problems with them. When you say low CO2, could you give me like an estimate? I know most recommend like 30 psi, or 3 bubbles/ second. I'm brand new to pressurized CO2 so I'm still learning these terms haha. I used DIY CO2 but that was an absolute nightmare. ^^;

And for circulation, I actually have a powerhead that I may attach the CO2 line too. I'll have to play around with both my CO2 diffuser and hooking it up directly into the powerhead to see which one disperses them better. The glass diffuser I have makes the bubbles smaller though so I might just use that and have it run under the powerhead. I can't afford a new, nicer looking filter which is why I kinda want to ditch it haha. My stock is pretty low I think too. 4 platys (3 are fry), 5 glow light tetras, and 1 BN pleco. Plus some RCS and amano shrimp. The idea of not having to need a filter because the plants basically are the filter just fascinates me. But if my stock is considered too high then I'll leave it I suppose. Only thing I don't like is it's an HOB and the current it produces isn't exactly great so I'm unsure as to how it would spread the CO2 effectively. And thank you for your help as well.  I'm dying to get this tank right this time.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Time for true confessions: I have never, ever used CO2. So I suggest that you start with the lowest recommended amount, whatever that is, and adjust from there.

Your stocking rate is light, so you can probably get away without the filter and just use the powerhead.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

The popular 'target' for CO2 has changed over the hobby's evolution, so concentrations other than 30ppm are definitely viable, but as far as I can gather we've never really had a way to get precise measurements for CO2. Honestly, we've only started accurately measuring our lighting fairly recently so it's hard to give you advice tailored to your specific setup.

Further, it's very hard to give you specific advice about setups that don't follow the popular guidelines, which might be the main reason (I suspect) that the popular guidelines still exist, even though people who follow them still run into problems.

There's a member on these boards called "zapins". If you want to experiment outside the boundaries of popular methods I strongly recommend that you read through his posts at your leisure. He's very good at explaining plant deficiencies and giving examples, and I feel his contribution to the community and hobby has helped me a lot in learning to read a tank through the plants.

From my own aquariums I've been led to think that there's a very wide margin of error in regards to most aspects of an aquarium, provided you have an understanding of all the components, and you're able to formulate a functioning system which addresses the critical factors and ties everything together.

Of course this is where it becomes an art, rather than a science.

As far as mineralized soil is concerned. I'm of the mindset that if it isn't broken, don't fix it. The 'problems' it supposedly fixes I don't consider to be problems, and in some cases I consider them benefits.

Of course, maybe I'll try it someday and change my mind... So pinch of salt and all...


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## ayeder (Sep 15, 2013)

Michael said:


> Time for true confessions: I have never, ever used CO2. So I suggest that you start with the lowest recommended amount, whatever that is, and adjust from there.
> 
> Your stocking rate is light, so you can probably get away without the filter and just use the powerhead.


Haha I never wanted to use CO2 either but months of dealing with BBA and staghorn that killed off so many plants basically has me trying everything to avoid that all over again. I'm getting an excellent deal on this CO2 set up, so it was hard to turn down. If I still manage to kill these plants with CO2, then it must be a sign I shouldn't be owning a planted aquarium lol.

And I'll probably trade in my little pleco for something else, possibly more tetra's. He's adorable, but I'll be ditching the driftwood I have atm (it refuses to stop leeching, even 1 year later) so he won't be too happy in my aquarium. He also seems to have developed a taste for my plants. T_T I'm still on the fence with the little guy. We'll see. But at least he'd lighten the bioload a bit and allow me to get more fish. 



Skizhx said:


> The popular 'target' for CO2 has changed over the hobby's evolution, so concentrations other than 30ppm are definitely viable, but as far as I can gather we've never really had a way to get precise measurements for CO2. Honestly, we've only started accurately measuring our lighting fairly recently so it's hard to give you advice tailored to your specific setup.
> 
> Further, it's very hard to give you specific advice about setups that don't follow the popular guidelines, which might be the main reason (I suspect) that the popular guidelines still exist, even though people who follow them still run into problems.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'll look into his posts and read up more about this. My lighting is fairly low so I know CO2 isn't probably needed, but I'm getting a great bargain on an entire set up so I thought "why not"?  Plus, even though I'll only be running 39W atm, I do have plants that may need the 4th 13W. I just bought a huge plant package on aquabid and some of those lights require medium/moderate. I guess that's where lighting confuses me, is that I'm not sure what it considered low, medium, and high. I would assume 39W over a 20G long is considered low, so would 52W be considered medium? I'm worried that I won't supply these plants with enough light, but then again I don't want too much at the same time.

And I guess the only reason I mineralized my soil was because of the quick fall I had in my current set up. I literally just took the soil start from the bag and threw it in there, only taking out the rocks and such. I used Miracle Grow Organic Potting mix so it came with a ton of other expected organics. I didn't read up enough about it, because most people recommend making a mud first before putting it in the tank. This oxgenates it plenty I believe. That's probably where I went horribly wrong. I just threw in the dirt, capped with Eco-Complete, and filled with water. I'm surprised none of my fish died to the toxins the organics probably released, though I did lose a tetra that just kinda disappeared one day. I wonder if it was related...


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Yeah, miracle gro is pretty bad. People only started recommending it because it was available everywhere and easy to find...

The only redeeming trait with the MGOC is that it's so reliably bad that we actually know all the specific problems associated with using it... Which is a plus if you're into troubleshooting stuff, I guess.

The internet's pretty much an echo-chamber so terrible advice spreads pretty fast, getting really popular.


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## ayeder (Sep 15, 2013)

I think it's bad only if you mess up as badly as I did. I didn't start with enough plants from the beginning which is why algae overran everything. My plants had like, a week of really good growth, then everything just started dying. What's funny is, I moved some of my hygrophila's from the main tank because they're were dying off, and I put them in my shrimp tank which is just normal shrimp fluval substrate. No ferts, root tabs, nothing. And they're doing 100 times better than the main tank... haha. I guess my substrate really WAS that bad. 


My crypts actually survived and did pretty well though despite the horrible substrate they're in. These are tough plants I guess. I'm getting ready to tear this tank down tonight/tomorrow, and hopefully the soil is ready. Had to make more since I only ended getting like a fourth of actual dirt. I'm just going to go light on the dirt, maybe even under 1/2 inch. I'm so scared of messing up again lol. Surely, 40-50 plants in a 20 gallon will be a sufficient amount from the start...


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## ayeder (Sep 15, 2013)

Michael said:


> First, Ayeder, welcome to APC!
> 
> I see mineralizing soil as an enhancement to the Walstad method, and as a corrective for the over-rich potting soil that many people try to use. Walstad does not talk about mineralizing soil, but she also often uses natural topsoil, which is already "mineralized" for our purposes.
> 
> ...


Also, I meant to ask you another question if that's okay. 

I'm looking online for table salt replacers but I'm unsure if there's a specific brand I should be sticking with, and how I go about dosing this stuff. Would I just use it strictly for the substrate (sprinkling a light dusting under the soil layer) or would I treat it as a dry fert and dose in the tank? I have a liquid fert for Potassium (Flourish) but it never seemed to help. I feel like I'm going to need a lot of Potassium for this tank lol. I guess I'm just confused as to how to do this.

Good news though, my plants will be getting in tomorrow. The soil is just about dry and ready to go. Just gotta pick up some red clay and make some mud. Hopefully I'll have enough... if not... well then. Whoops.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Any brand of salt substitute is fine. I have not used it as a dry fertilizer, only in the substrate. Maybe someone else can comment on this.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I use it as a tank additive along with the rest of the fertilizers. It works fine for that. I always mix my fertilizers in water before I add them but it seems to dissolve rapidly fwiw.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

If you're buying online, you can just as easily get Potassium Sulfate. I bought mine from Green Leaf. Salt substitute is a convent alternative since you don't need to order it. You can just pick some up the next time you're at the grocer.

You can use it in either situation. By dusting a layer under the soil, you'll start off with some that's readily available for the plants. The CEC of the soil will help hold it down there. If in the future you see you have a potassium deficiency, then you can start dosing the water by using one of the online calculators such as the Fertilator.


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## Trenna (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm very new and mostly lurking, but I didn't see this so I wanted to throw it out there ... 

After I set up my first (non planted) tank with fine sand, I was warned about the anaerobic issue, and pointed toward Malaysian Trumpet Snails. I did a lot of research, as they are also considered a pest, and while there is conflicting info I chose to believe they do a remarkable job of tilling the substrate, they eat decaying plant matter and pick through fish detritus (helping compost it further), and their population adjusts to the level of "extra" food in the tank. Every LFS I've visited is happy to give them to me for free. 

I don't know if they are why I don't seem to have an anaerobic problem in my substrate, but I can clearly see the trails where they're actively coming up at night and burrowing down by day.


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