# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Aquascaping challenge



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

In case you didn't read the announcement, I am going to be a guest speaker on a live syndicated radio show in March. They will be setting up a 55 gallon plant Discus tank. We will periodically report on the radio each stage of it's development, discuss it, and take questions from phone callers! I will donate the plants and equipment. They will show pictures on their WEB site. There radio show is broadcasted on stations in four states reaching over 200,000 listeners!!

What I would like to do is invite all you folks to propose an aquascape design, and draw it up and post it here. I will then choose one design to send to them, and on the radio I will say who it was designed by! Anyone interested? You need to choose plants that I have... How would you design such a tank?

And please, don't bother telling me a 55 is too small for discus, that was their idea not mine, and I cant argue the point with them! Lets make this a fun community event!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

In case you didn't read the announcement, I am going to be a guest speaker on a live syndicated radio show in March. They will be setting up a 55 gallon plant Discus tank. We will periodically report on the radio each stage of it's development, discuss it, and take questions from phone callers! I will donate the plants and equipment. They will show pictures on their WEB site. There radio show is broadcasted on stations in four states reaching over 200,000 listeners!!

What I would like to do is invite all you folks to propose an aquascape design, and draw it up and post it here. I will then choose one design to send to them, and on the radio I will say who it was designed by! Anyone interested? You need to choose plants that I have... How would you design such a tank?

And please, don't bother telling me a 55 is too small for discus, that was their idea not mine, and I cant argue the point with them! Lets make this a fun community event!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## imported_Fred (Feb 1, 2003)

Robert,
Maybe you could talk them into Apistogammas instead of Discus? Just as colorful, easier to breed and cheaper.

Fred


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Bear with me for a moment here:

55 gallon?!! CRAP! What a miserasble format... Another $50 gets you a 75g. *sigh*

OK, Robert, I'll e-mail you a paintbrush layout. Is that OK? This should be great fun for us. 

Any idea what kind of light we have to work with? I guess you just got the whole JBJ thing so it'll prolly be 4x55w PC's?

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Robert,

Do you still have that thin branchy wood you got from the coast on Thanksgiving? Is there any way to make this open top?

Proverbs 3:7-8


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2003)

Use that cork for most of the back wall, add Bolbitus or Bolbitus moss mix. 
Use driftwood smnall little branches and pre grow some java moss on it at high light/CO2.

Cuban chain sword below or Riccia stones.

You sell the cork and wood already, may as well use it here and it'll be easy and look good.
Show off other skills using attachment of plants to various pieces. 
You can use rocks etc, but if you don't sell them I'd not use them.

Try and limit your self to 4-5 plants.

Darker moss/Bolbitus will accent the bright colors of these fish much better and make them feel at home more and hopefully they will display better colors in a darker background.

Cork will enable you to hide any thing.

Small little branches covered in moss will give some dimensionality while not blocking the light below.

A nice bright mid and foreground of Riccia(or cuban Chain sword also dwarf Sags) is fast and easy to grow.
The bright color reflects off the bottom of the tank giving lots of light reflecting up against the fish against a dark background. 

You can do the golden triangle with the mossy branches. 

Since the tank is so bloody narrow, this will give a good deal of depth since you are not trying to plant 2-3 rows of stem plants in 11.5 inches. Just the cork and the foreground and the branches pointing up in the air.

They will fall on their knees at your artistry. Technique and the quick look and speed of this set up is quite nice. You can pre grow the branches and Riccia stones. Tie the moss/bolbitus etc onto the cork.

Heck, you don't even need a substrate but a nice black against the bright Riccia/swords would look dramatic.

You could add a nice red lily somewhere also, if you have a flowering one, bring that. The large colorful leaf will look good aganist Riccia and moss etc. A plant Street of Red Alternantera would also sub well for that.

I find mossy branches(Or stones), riccia stones(or branches) and cork to be real crowd pleasers.
Think about the sale and what would impress them the most.
It matches well with the stage for fish and gets some neat plants that folks always like.

How you move the pieces around is up to you.
But it'd only take you 5-10 minutes max to set up the design once you decide beforehand how you want it. 

This design also allows you to hide any equipment easily. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I dont think they will want to get into anyting to elaborate with corkbark. I still have the thin branchy wood, but it floats. I could send it to them, but I am not sure they would know what to do with it.

So lets keep a more simple approach with plants. Perhaps the narrow depth will be more of a challenge for us anyway!









Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

Now one of my ideas I had for a long time is an aquascape where the whole substrate is covered with eleocharis parvulus. Somewhere in the middle (perhaps in the golden ratio) there is an island (or two) with grey medium sized stones between those stones: Java fern and maybe some pieces of driftwood.










www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Robert wrote:



> quote:
> 
> I could send it to them, but I am not sure they would know what to do with it.


Robert, I guess from this commentthat you won't be aquascaping or maintaining the tank yourself. Do you know who will be, what their emphasis is or how much gardening skill they bring to the table?

Roger Miller


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I spoke with Mark at animaltalk network today, and he said he will join the forum here, and join in on the conversation! He said he is open to being convinced to go with a 70 or 90 gallon tank! His main concern is taking what is the most common for beginners to start with. He thinks people would be more apt to buy a 55 than something larger.

No, I am not setting up the tank or having anything to do with it specifically. They are based in Detroit, I am in Oregon, so that would be a little difficult! He is an experienced fish nerd, but a novice when it comes to plants.

The idea is to take something fairly simple that will attract new people into the hobby. I will be a guest for the plant part of it...and I presume sort of guiding or steering the direction that it goes in that regard. He may have other people involved for the fish aspect of it. He is even open to having some of you come on the radio as well..via the telephone. Everything has to be set up by the first of March.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Thats an interesting idea Birgit, but to be honest, dwarf hairgrass is difficult to come by in large amounts, and I may have trouble giving him that much of it. Also with a discus tank, I think you should have some tall plants and hiding places for the fish instead of a completly open type of aquascape. What does anyone else think of Birgits idea?

I would like to see a lot more people posting their discus plant tank pictures in the Discus gallery, that may help.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

I really like Birgit's layout, 
I would probally go with dwarf Sag. instead of hairgrass though, it is very hardy plant and eaisy to plant and replant for a newbie!

Discus don't need any hiding places, after all they were probally raised in a bare bottom tank!

I hope they are getting adults!


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

B&W's design is nice (as usual), but their tank proportions in the diagram are way off, which may make that layout seem more desireable. 

I don't think a 55g will support that type of layout. I *know* a 29g won't which would be better (still not good, tho) than a 55g for that style. A 75g or 90g would be very nice, though....Something with more tangible and less implied depth.

I sent Robert a piantbrush diagram that hopefully he'll post here shortly. More then.

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## JaredtheAquamaniac (Feb 3, 2003)

Does this station have a website? I work in the city, and live just a few miles outside of it...Im curious to hear how this goes.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Beginner with 55G??....beginner with Discus??

I think that they need to rethink what the objective is here. Beginners don't need to learn how to keep Discus.

[This message was edited by anonapersona on Wed February 12 2003 at 02:35 PM.]


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

Robert, I think you ought to contact one of the TV shows and try to get on that after you get your feet wet with this radio thing. This is a visual activity, not well suited to the radio. However the TV shows are just the thing! The animal network and then the home decorating network. That is, if you are ready to increase your business.

I watch those kinds of shows from time to time. Typically, it will begin with an amazingly beautiful tank, like 75 or 90 gallons and exotic fish like Discus and then turn to how a beginner can get started, since we beginners ahve no business starting with huge tanks and delicate expensive fish. Surely there is someone could provide that 2 minute view of the awesome tank that we all wish to have.

Then you turn to something the common novice, like me, might be able to afford and be pleased with. Like a 29 gallon or thereabouts. The cost of materials is reasonable, last time I added it up I has spent about $300 on my set up, excluding the used tank and stand so total maybe $400 had that been new. Starting with 55 watts is about right for the beginner. Flourite and bought fertilizers work for 2 watts per gallon. DIY CO2 is easy or use 2 Hagen sets. After the materials, the rest is learning the plants and the art of arranging. Oh, yeah, and selecting the fish, the working class fish (algae crew) and the leisure class fish (pretty fish).

Robert would come in as the mail order plant source, shipping in enough plants to fully plant the tank so that it looks lovely by the end of the show. They ought to fly you in to do the taping, don't you think? And at the end you refer viewers to the site for more details and plant orders.

THEN, do a similar show on the home dcorating networks. That big tank is always the centerpiece of a home.

[This message was edited by anonapersona on Wed February 12 2003 at 02:34 PM.]


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

55g is OK for beginners. Better than a 5g or 10g, but you certainly have a point about discus. Thing is, the guy making sure everything is going right is a long time fish keeper according to Robert, so "care" really isn't the issue.

Captive bred discus are no harder to maintain than angels or Apistos, AFAIK, or have been made aware of. It's just like anything else, as long as you start with good stock and be mindfull of some basics, discus shouldn't be a problem.

I personally think that a worse problem is that a 4'x13"x20" tank is WAY too small for one fully grown discus. The tank is less than 2 body lengths of a fully grown fish in depth. I believe that, along with Oscars and angels, discus are amongst the most often mistreated fish with regards to cramped quarters. Worse, it's often thoughtful hobbyists who are to blame unlike the two former examples. 6'x2'x2' really should be the *minimum* requirement for a group of discus.

Sorry discus folks. If a fish is more than a 1/3 of the depth of the tank in length, than it's too big for the tank. 1/4 or less is even better. For example, in a tank with 12-13" of depth, the max sized fish should be 4" or less. Length of the tank and fish activity level can modify this somewhat, but it's the rule I go by and it yields a *very* good aesthetic and fish health.

Sorry for soapboxing. I feel very strongly about the subject. The only reason I didn't say something earlier is because Robert asked us not to







.......

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

How about an aquascape that uses the better aspect of a 55 gallon tank (its height) and not complaining about the shortcoming? Try this:










The wood on the left should run from the water surface to the substrate in long, gently bending lines, leaving a darkened area behind the wood. The vallisneria on the right should sweep to the height of the tank and across the surface. The remaining plants are java moss in front of the wood and in the back center, Crypt. moehlmanii (or something similar) in the back at the golden section and java fern attached to horizontal pieces of wood on the right. The wood with the java fern should be placed at a diagonal from the back to the right front corner.

The back of the tank should be painted black. I colored the substrate more-or-less like Flourite, and I think that's a good effect.

These are all undemanding plants that should grow without causing a lot of consternation. I think the aquascape uses the height of the tank to a good advantage.

Roger Miller


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> B&W's design is nice (as usual), but their tank proportions in the diagram are way off, which may make that layout seem more desireable.


Well, that is exactly the proportions of our 55 gallon tank. 100cm long and 40cm deep (10:4). What are the usual proportions over the pond. I hear many people use juwel tanks, like I do!

The problem with the discus: I never had some, but as far as I know, they donÂ´t like neither too much plants in their tanks (as mike allready stated), nor humans digging around in the tank with their hands, aquascaping the tank, so I thought: better pic some plants that donÂ´t need too much aquascaping work.

Dwarf sag is too equal in leaf shape to java fern. What about java moss instead?

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

OK, change of plan...it is now going to be a 70 gallon tank, same 48" light fixture. Rocky Mountain Discus is donating wild caught discus, and will also be a guest speaker. The date of the first show is March 23rd, 7:30 pm east coast time. Pictures of the tank will be put on their WEB site for each stage of it's development. BTW, if there is not a station in your area, the show is broadcasted live from their WEB site! Which means anyone, even Birgit can listen to the show! I may even invite some of you to be phone in guest speakers as well!

So, now adapt your plans to a 70 gallon tank!!









The Simply Discus forum asked me if they can be involved or kept informed of this as well. They are certainly welcome, and so is any other forum.

Roger, nice job on the graphic, looks nice and I can see you put a lot of time into it! Sorry for the change of plan...next time please make the image a little smaller so it doesn't screw up the page format, please!









Oh, I guess I forgot to give their WEB site address: www.animaltalkradio.com

They did this same type of project with a reef tank a few months back or sometime last year, and it was a huge success. They worked with Flying Fish Express as the consultant and expert speaker. The goal of this project is to show that freshwater can be just as beautifull in its own right as a reef tank. A planted discus tank is certainly the best of the best example. It is not for the beginner who wants a goldfish. It would be for the beginner discus keeper. For the person who would be awestrucken by the shear beauty. And quite frankly they want something that is photogenic. After this is all over, we are also talking about putting it all together to be published in either TFh, AFM, or FAMA. So in many ways this may only be the begining.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Thu February 13 2003 at 02:03 AM.]


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Roger, nice job on the graphic, looks nice and I can see you put a lot of time into it! Sorry for the change of plan...next time please make the image a little smaller so it doesn't screw up the page format, please!


Thanks. The image fits nicely on my screen. How small does it need to be to fit on yours? Or other folks', for that matter.

Roger


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Hey gang,

Roger Miller offers in part:


> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> How about an aquascape that uses the better aspect of a 55 gallon tank (its height) and not complaining about the shortcoming?


But, Roger, the height ISN'T a better aspect, it's only part of the problem. It makes decorating impossible, and actually limits plant choices. Many plants that would grow to this height can actually be half as wide as the tank is deep or even more. To use meaningfully sized decor (in relation to the size of the tank) is nearly impossible, as you shared with us when we discussed your 55g.

All this is moot, obviously, because we are using a different tank now, but our 55g is an aquascaping dog.

What are the dimensions of a 70g tank? It's not listed as a stock tank on the AGA web site.

B&W, to address your query about 55g tank dimensions, here "across the pond" (I like that!) the ratio is 4:1.1 or 120cmX32.5cmX50cm.
Please forgive me if my metric figures are slightly off, but you get the picture. In inches, the measurements are 48X13X20.

I'm not sure why I just assumed that Europeans would have the same All-Glass aquarium with the same dimensions that we use. Naive of me, I suppose







Sorry for the confusion.

Robert, if you put my diagram up in that spot where you put my other pics, I'd gladly put it up here. It'll work on different footprints, and I'd realy like to discuss it.

Thanks!

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

The average screen resolution is 800 X 600,
Almost 50% of the monitors are set to this,
this is the standard for web designe these days!

Mine is set at 1024 x 768 and the picture is still of the page!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

ekim wrote:



> quote:
> 
> Mine is set at 1024 x 768 and the picture is still of the page!


I guess it's a good thing that I cut the image size in half after the first time I posted it!

Roger Miller


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Robert,

Taking into account that wild caught fish are going into this tank I think it would be our best bet to make a tank like the one in the Biotope Tank thread in Planted Discus.

The plants are hardy and pretty easy to come by. However, rather than use the anubias (?) I'd go with E. parviflorus v. tropica in the mid-foreground.

Proverbs 3:7-8


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

Now what about the dimensions of that tank?
I better ask first!

I like Phils idea. Why not do some Nanne de Vos style?

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

This excersize is supposed to show off what the world of planted aquaria has to offer. I'm not sure a biotope is totally appropriate in this case.

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

This tank really isn't a biotope in any true sense of the word. It's much more a well planted Habitat aqarium which shows quite well what a planted aquarium has to offer. If these fish weren't straight out of the Amazon I'd say a tank like JaredW's would be perfect.

Proverbs 3:7-8


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I've read a little about discus habitat. From what I've read, if you want the tank to make the fish "feel at home" you wouldn't put plants in it at all. You would have lots of tree branches and roots and the water would be stained dark brown.

If that isn't the tank you have in mind, then maybe the tank should just be designed as a healthy, easily maintained tank that will give an inexperienced plant keeper a good shot at success.

Roger Miller


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Joe Public and the radio station don't *care* where these fish are from. All they know is that freshwater tanks are boring and saltwater tanks are cool. 

Making this an academic pursuit is one sure way to shut out the masses.... You're idea is a great one, Phil, for your living room or mine, but we need flashy and WOW factor here, not accurate.

Is this a showcase for planted tanks or fish? I'm getting the impression that the fish have become more important.

Will someone *please* give us the dimensions of a 70g tank?

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Sorry, I can't say what the dimension are for a 70 gallon tank. Actually, I wasn't sure they made such a thing.

I think by construction the "showcase" is actually for fish. That doesn't seem very avoidable. The guy that builds and maintains the tank is an experienced fish keeper who has never kept plants. The fish in question are wild-caught discus. Even with domestic discus the emphasis in a discus tank is almost always fish first. In fact, I don't think I've heard of any discus tank that was maintained for the sake of the plants.

After all, they're called "discus tanks" aren't they?


Roger Miller


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

So, why are *we* even involved? This is becoming sillier by the day. I'm sad to say that you're prolly right about the fish being the biggest part of this effort, Roger. In a 4' tank, a group of 6-10" brownish-green fish leaves little room for viewing details. Oh well....

Why, on Earth, would AB donate its time and saleable product to a fishkeeper and his whim? Am I the only one who sees folly in this, or did I miss something? I said it before and I'll say it again, the majority of Americans think freshwater tanks are boring. The only reason that the Asians and Europeans think so highly of it is that there are people and groups who have taken advantage of high profile situations to further the hobby.... 

The best foot should be put forward if it's going to be worth anything to AB and the hobby in general.

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2003)

I dunno, Discus people will be squawking about having RO water, feeding the fish till they cannot eat any more full of live sewer worms(pretreated with expensive medication).

Most tend to be might insistent on those elements. To heck with the plants. 
But maybe(hopefully) not. 

Good thing they moved up the tank size.
Setting up a tank from afar is too difficult. 
I'd just tell them to get some books etc and see what designs they like. Converse some and then design it together. You will have to have their input here. The pre done moss/cork would make it easy to add and design.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

You don't have to use the space bar to read the text or see the whole picture? I do, and I have a 17" monitor.. I am not going to beat the issue into the ground, whatever works...

Anyway, its now a 70 gallon tank

OOPs, I forgot to read the second page of posts here before I posted this! I don't know what the dimensions of a 70 gallon is, only that he said its 48" long. This is not a biotope. This is a plant tank with discus. There are thousands of plant people who keep discus, and there are many Discus people who no longer belive you have to keep discus in a bare bottom tank. God, read Karen Randalls article or George Booths. Lets not get that old debate here! If anything, this could serve to show those old school discus people it can be done.

It is a show tank. If you want to discuss the merits of the discus, you should probably talk about it on the simplydiscus forum. I am mostly concerned about the plants. I'd almost rather see a heavily dutch type of set up, but any ideas are welcome! This is all just for fun. I think I may take everyones designs and post them all together on a WEB page so people can use them or get inspiration from them. Maybe I will even use them to sell assortment packages of plants! So keep them coming please!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Fri February 14 2003 at 02:22 PM.]


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

Amano created several discus tanks in his 
first book, Nature Aquarium World Book I, where
the plants were taken in consideration first
(so he says). One shows heckel discus in a 
mound-style layout with java fern and java 
moss on driftwood. The other features a 
concave layout with moss, ferns, and some
small crypts. The only tank I've seen
where the discus seem almost secondary
is the one with the large blue discus
over the huge field of glosso and a driftwood
"tree" covered in java fern.

Carlos


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I had a confrence call with animal radio network and Rocky mountain discus... the discus guy says these wild discus in many ways are more hardy than hybrids. Moderately hard water will be fine for them, and is what will be used. Not RO water. A C02 system will be used. So do not concern yourself with the fish please!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Roger,

You're absolutely right on the mark about the all wood and no plants thing. I never said that we should make a discus biotope, a Habitat tank, sure, but no biotope. Also, for the sake of completeness, most of the accounts we have from people who've been there are from the low water periods when the fish are caught. During high water times, when the forests are so flooded that discus can't be reached, they range far and raise broods in and among the plants and trees. The same people who've been there have said that too.

I liked your idea a lot and think it would be perfect for any group of fish raised in a tank. Hell, I'm thinking of basing one my own tanks on your design. I feel this aquarium needs to have more wood in it than a regular planted aquarium simply to make the environment more comfortable for the fish. A spectacular, and easily maintained, planted aquarium can still be designed with a lot of wood.

A *lot* can be done under those parameters. I'm not as graphically inclined as you and the picture in the discus forum is the best description of what I could come up with.

Wheeler,

I don't think we're making this an academic pursuit. I've seen wild caught fish in a planted display aquarium and they looked terrified. The fish showed little color and behaved poorly. This was in a beautiful and well maintained aquarium to boot.

Unless Robert went to the location and did the aquascape himself the design isn't what's going to catch Joe Public's attention. The fish will. If they're huddled in a corner all pale and clamp finned it doesn't matter how beautiful the design, Joe Public is going to walk right by saying "Salt Tanks are so much cooler!"

Personally, I think using wild caughts is a royally bad idea for anyone who's new to planted aquaria. Using a tank bred wild strain would be so much better for everyone involved. Going on Roger's design I think some Tefe Red Spotted Greens would look great in that environment.

Et al,

Robert asked us for ideas for a planted discus aquarium so I gave mine. I don't think our back and forth has done much to encourage others to give their ideas. I'm sorry for my part in that, and apologize to all involved. Back to our regularly schedule programming, please.

Proverbs 3:7-8

[This message was edited by Phil Edwards on Fri February 14 2003 at 02:49 PM.]

[This message was edited by Phil Edwards on Fri February 14 2003 at 02:57 PM.]


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> You don't have to use the space bar to read the text or see the whole picture? I do, and I have a 17" monitor..


Sorry about that whole thing. I was using a 19" monitor with the resolution set at 1280 X 1024. The original image was 1920 pixels across, but my image editor automatically scaled it by 50% to get it on screen. I also scaled the image by 50% when I posted it, so it should have been 960 pixels wide. That would fit in an image viewer on a 1024x768 screen, but browsers use up a lot of space for frames, task bars and so on and the bulletin board program doesn't offer all of the available width for images.

In the future I'll just keep in mind that images should be under 800 pixels wide.

Roger Miller


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Some further thoughts...

It might be helpful to maximumize the use of surface-attached plants. Instead of sending them a bunch of plants that they have to stick in the ground, send them mosses and plants that are already attached to wood or stones.

For instance java moss could be tied to stones and the java fern tied to the wood before it's even sent to the Animal channel folks. Same thing for riccia, anubias, bolbitis and probably a few other plants.

The same thing could be done with Tom's cork bark. The idea would be to attach the plants before it goes to Detroit.

In something like the design is posted, the C. moehlmanii could be replaced with A. barteri tied to a piece of wood, the java moss and java fern would be tied to stone and wood, respectively, and the only thing that would have to be planted in the substrate would be the val.

Tropica is actually taking this concept to an extreme. You can now buy whole aquacapes from them, with all the plants neatly pre-arranged on a screen that covers the tank bottom. The whole tank floor is covered by screen-attached plants, wood or stone. There is no other substrate. All of the tank decor can be removed in one motion.

One of the up sides to this is that a tidy discus keeper could remove almost everything from the tank for thorough cleaning. They might feel more comfortable with that.


Roger Miller


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

OK, guys! Slowly you are starting to sound like the guys on german speaking boards. NO offense here for anyone, but we shall see the chance to bring the planted aquascape to people who usually have fish only tanks. 
When they see the beauty of a planted aquascape the will want one for sure. We only need to show them what a beautiful tank really looks like!

Talking about Amano. IÂ´m not the one to copy another ones tank, but what about that one:
We could use lobelia, like Tom (btw: have we lost him?) did it instead of Glosso. That would make things a lot easier.









www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

I donÂ´t think anybody would say he prefers a bare fish only tank to the one shown above, do you?

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Let me make this absolutely clear again people.

This project is to showcase a planted tank and fish. Discus were chosen because he felt they would be large, colorful and impressive looking. The emphasise is not on fish first. It is plants and discus. Plants was the first idea, discus came later.

This is not a biotope display. Wild Discus was offered by the breeder instead of hybrids, and the breeder understood fully this would be a plant tank. He doesn't have a problem with it. According to him his wilds are tougher, more resiliant fish than most hybrids, those are his words. Rocky mountain discus is a very well known and respected dicus dealer. So get off the fish already! There will be no RO water. The breeder does not even keep them in RO water.

I spoke with Mark AGAIN, and he will get the actual dimensions of the tank. He thought it was a 70, maybe its a 75, I don't know, but I will have the dimensions soon.

You guys really do not need to make this complicated. Just put together your "dream" aquascape! Pretend someone gave you this tank and you can put whatever plants in it you want, (that I have!) Thats all we have to do! The only enviornmental things you need to be concerned about is the tank temp, (high 80s), the light, (220 watts) C02, and a laterite substrate.

There is no limit here. We could go with a very heavily planted tank, an open field sort of thing, large sword plants and grass plants, whatever

Jeff Senske has installed a number of professional planted discus display aquariums for his customers,










And here are some other peoples




























Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Here is another challenge for you!










This is the wood I am going to send him, in the picture it is sitting in front of a 55 gallon tank. What would you do with it?

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

Now here is my idea:









Maybe you could play a little with the size, but I guess the java fern will grow bigger anyway. I think this will be an aquascape that will be done easily. It is not only that it is quite easy to achieve. It is also quite fast to achieve. It wouldnÂ´t be much more than 4 weeks until everyhting has grown in (if you take submerse cultivated plants). I guess time will be a big matter. Nobody wants to wait months. This will discourage people to go freshwater!

Pictures of the lobelia cardinalis were taken from Erik Leungs website, I hope he doesnÂ´t mind.

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Robert,

Could we get a top view of that wood too? It's hard to figure out the spacing between the roots and the actual area the wood will cover. Thanks!

Proverbs 3:7-8


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Cool idea Birgit, but I don't sell Lobelia!

Top view of the wood? yes, I can do that, but it depends on how you lay it down. Its a long, knarly piece that branches or forks at one point, as you can see from the picture. You could lay it flat as I have it, or have it kind of upright with one end buried in the gravel. You could have it partially upright, at an angle. Let me take more pictures later tonight.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

Uuuups









What about some dwarf cryptocorynes then?

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Dwarf cryps are possible, like parva...but they are slow growing, spread or fill in slowly, just ask Phil. He got parva from me for his biotope. Not that it probably makes a difference!

Here is John Wheelers design he emailed to me:










BTW, if anyone is curious, Animaltalk radio saw my ad in FAMA and called ME asking if I would like to do this project. He could of picked Fishvet, or one of the other plant people in FAMA, but he chose me! It's the best thing to come out of that ad thus far...

Here are the actual dimensions of the tank being used!! It is 48 inches long by 18 inches front to back and 20 inches tall

I like Johns aquascape. Question, if I was to do this aquascape, do you think there would be a problem if I used lava rocks for the mounds of Java moss and Riccia? Would the rough surface, even though it would be covered in plants, pose any threat to the Discus? The discus would be the only fish or animals in the tank. No other ground feeders, fish or animals. The breeder says any other fish would scare these wild discus, and they will eat any small fish. Lava rock is the only rock I have.

Any more design ideas? Birgit? Roger? Anybody?

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

[This message was edited by Robert H on Sun February 16 2003 at 02:58 AM.]


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

Wow, now that aquascape could look really nice.

My suggestions:
IÂ´d skip MM and go with micro tenellus there as well. 
Ludwigia perennis is going to be the centerpoint. DonÂ´t forget about the golden ratio.
IÂ´d also skip the Sag subulata and take something else instead, although IÂ´m not sure what. S.S. and Micro tenellus look too similar.

But once again: Raising my hat, John.

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

S. subulata and tenellus look similar? Similar in shape, but that's it, IMO. Under 4x55w PC's the tenellus will be dark, rusty red and the Sag. will be *bright* green. 

The cascading Crypts were meant to be the focal point along with the Riccia highlights. The Ludwigia is just meant for a splash of color.

I'm not married to the Micranthemum, but tenellus won't do much to cover the ugly bottoms of the Ludwigia. The idea there is to just see the top 5-6 nodes (or less) of the Ludwigia. Something bushy and dense should go in that part of the tank even if the moss extended that way.

Lava rocks are fine.....Granite Mickey Mouses would be OK. After a couple of weeks the moss will have grown over it all and create something of a pillow. Depending on how often it gets trimmed, the moss could become quite dominating, so I wouldn't worry about material so much.

You don't have any motivation to collect rocks? Come to think of it, it's gonna suck to have to ship rocks to Detroit. Why don't you let tham take care of that, or is that asking too much?

Best wishes,
John Wheeler


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

WEll I thought I might even attach the moss and riccia to the rocks myself. Save them the trouble. I don't know how much work he is willing to put into it. I was actually thinking of adding vals and wide leaf sag, (the giant sag) to John design, and maybe some giant hairgrass. I may have trouble getting the Ludwigia glandulosa, my supplier has been out of it for the last month. I will try and get it again next week.

Don't forget the wood! The design would have to be altered to accomadate the wood. I still need to take more pictures of it I guess.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

OK, here is my layout, sorry nothing fancy!
I think all the plants will do fine in higher temps!
Your choice of Val's, Sag, Crypts and Swords speiceis


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

That has possibilities Ekim! thanks! I could use a smaller var tropica sword in front of the vals, and a red rubin sword on the other side of the tank! Cool!

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## Dojo (Feb 2, 2003)

Should make no more than 700 wide. You have it 960 now.









~D

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~Life is but a moment with the fish~
*Read my profile for tank Specs!*


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## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

the radio station is based in the detroit area?? SWEET!! home sweet home! maybe i can help the dude set it all up







what station is it? or their website? i didn't see it posted anywhere in this thread (maybe i missed it, tons of talking going on) anyway... just set them up with jeff senske picture number 1... honestly it was THAT picture that made me want to learn live plants. another picture i saw that tickled my fancy was a giant purple/red lotus in the middle, healthiest and most beautiful i've ever seen http://mathres1.smcm.edu/~rjbell/images/full_tank.jpg there's a link to it, it's in the forum somewhere. i don't want to add a ton of "do this do this!" because there will be plenty of people adding comments... i'm just thinking if you decide to have a focal plant, this may be an option.

JP


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Any updates?


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## soozoom (May 29, 2003)

I just read through this whole thread - it was very interesting to follow the process of a collaborative online aquascaping challenge for a radio station. But then the thread abruptly ended, and left me wondering what happened. Which design was chosen? Did jpmtotoro help the Detroit radio station set the tank up? Did the wild discus like it? Was it a hit with the listeners? Did it lead to anything else? Where is the tank now? Inquiring minds want to know...


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## Birgit & Wolfgang (Feb 5, 2003)

you are right! What happened?

www.naturaquarium.at
view some of our pictures


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

The whole project died and went away. Basically the radio guy just flaked out on me...he stood me up for an interview twice, and I never heard from him again. I figured from that he wasn't very serious and never tried to contact him after that either.

I really like everyones aquascaping ideas though. I wish there was some way to put them to good use.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## soozoom (May 29, 2003)

I loved the concept, although it seemed like a bit of an odd choice for a radio show - after all, a lot of imagination would be required on the part of the listeners. It would be better suited to tv, I think. Have you considered marketing the idea to a tv program - maybe a hobby show, or a home & garden show?


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## kherman (Apr 7, 2003)

I've read most of the and and what I think we are getting at is the following. We are trying to show people what can be done with plants and how they can make an aquarium beutiful using a 70 gallon tank as an example.

I thought I'd make a list of things that made me think, WOW, I never imagined that could be done before I got into the hobby. Maybe incorporating the following concepts is the way to go, then design an aquascape around the concepts.
1) Red plants in an aquarium
2) Rocks and driftwood are not neccesarily needed
3) grassy fields (glasso, hairgrass, etc)
4) golden ratio
5) hedges
6) Dutch style

OK, I'm going to finish reading page three of the thread









UPDATE: OK, I noticed the new layouts just after posting this








UPDATE: UH OH. Just read Robert's post about hte project getting nuked







What a bummer.

On that note, can I buy that piece of driftwood of of you? Serisouly, it's exactly the kida piece I waslooking for. I'd need a top view pic, but I am seriously interested.

------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/kfh227- go there and see my future fish section to see what I have planned for my next 100+ gallon tank.
Note: I havn't maintained the site lately.

[This message was edited by kherman on Mon June 16 2003 at 06:52 AM.]


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