# Burnt tips/browning leaves



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey folks, 

I need some help diagnosing an issue with my setup. I'm seeing a lot of burnt leaf tips/leaves and dying tops in my emerged setup. I've got some ideas, but having never done a setup like this I'd prefer to have confirmation and get different points of view because I'm clearly not doing something right. 

Basics-
*3" of volcanic ash substrate similar in grain size and physical properties to Amazonia and UP Aqua Soil.
*1.92 w/gallon T5 lighting 12-16 hours per day
*Seran wrap over the top with 3/4" venting on 2/3 of one side of the tank. With the exception of the glass closest to the vents the pane is consistently moist.
*1 gallon of water with: 17.5 mg/L NO3-N, 1.23ppm PO4-P, 13.2ppm K, 3.2ppm Fe, approx 12 GH, and traces added 1x/week.

There's currently about 1/4-1/2" of water over most of the substrate.

Backstory- I added all the plants at the end of September and started noticing nutrient deficiencies three weeks later. I directly added/sprayed our K and Fe supplements and promptly fried the plants. Over the following weeks I added only water with a kelp extract to supplement growth hormones, plant extracts, and light macronutrients via an old pump sprayer. I did this for almost two months and did notice some improvement but continued to see dying/browning tissues. With nutrients not being an issue I figured there may have been some residual herbicide or something in the sprayer. Last week I dosed as above, with an extra gallon of just water, using a watering can. Everything got a good soaking. 

I'm still seeing browning leaf tips and it looks like some of the new growth is dying in some species. Going through the list of possible causes of this I've ruled out too much water (they're aquatics after all) and herbicides. 

What I think the cause(s) may be:
1. Excess nutrients causing issues with roots and/or burning delicate emergent tissues.
2. Cold. It doesn't get very warm in that room even with the space heater going and the house's furnace in the next room.
3. Too much light. Would 24x 24watt T5 be too much light for Rotalas, Hygrophilas, Staurogynes, and Ludwigias?
4. Not enough humidity. I'm stumped on this one because the sides of the tank and saran wrap typically have a layer of condensation at most times.

Any other ideas? I've never kept a system like this before. All of my past emergent growth setups have either been drainable or have been pots in a water bath. 


Thanks,
Phil


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## denske (Jul 28, 2013)

Is your substrate nutrient dense Phil? Have you pulled any stems out to see what the roots look like? Some pics might help get some ideas.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Phil Edwards said:


> What I think the cause(s) may be:
> 1. Excess nutrients causing issues with roots and/or burning delicate emergent tissues.
> 2. Cold. It doesn't get very warm in that room even with the space heater going and the house's furnace in the next room.
> 3. Too much light. Would 24x 24watt T5 be too much light for Rotalas, Hygrophilas, Staurogynes, and Ludwigias?
> 4. Not enough humidity. I'm stumped on this one because the sides of the tank and saran wrap typically have a layer of condensation at most times.


1. No, that's not nearly excess as far as nutrients go and I would imagine burning would happen if you were using ammoniacal sources of nitrogen, which you are not.
2. Perhaps...
3. No way. Those plants can take some serious PAR when growing emergent. A lot of them are full sun plants in the wild.
4. I would start here.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

4 would make sense. The cold room could be causing the condensation to suck all your moisture out of the air. Do you have an air stone or anything splashing the water to help?


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

*denske*,

No, the substrate's not nutrient dense like mineralized topsoil or fresh Amazonia would be. I specifically chose the Rio Cafe because it's doesn't release a boatload of ammonia like Amazonia and our Rio Escuro do. That being said, there still may be an excess of Iron, K, and trace elements in the substrate pore water as I used 500mL of straight FlorinMulti, Florin-K, and 300mL (approx) of Florin-Fe straight from the bottle. That was a month and a half ago though. I'll have to pull up one of the plants and see what things look like root-side. I'm heading out of town for the weekend tonight and will post pics when I can.

*Tugg and Aaron*,

No, there's no airstone and very little (if any) water or air circulation from what I can tell. Low humidity was my next best guess too and is where I'm going to start.

Next steps to hopefully aid recovery-
1. Flush the system and replace water. I'm going to add about 8"/90 gallons of water, circulate/aerate it with a Korallia, let it sit for a day, then drain. Hopefully this will remove the greater part of any excess/detrimental amounts of ions from the substrate.

2. Completely cover the tank again. Did this last night.

3. Get the lights on a timer. I programmed the lights last night to give a 12/12 on/off photoperiod rather than the "on when I wake up and off before bed" irregular cycle.

4. Regular misting/watering. What do you guys think about regular misting? I've only been giving the system a weekly (ish) watering when the surface water has evaporated to just below the substrate surface. The plants aren't getting watered/misted at any other time.

5. (Possible consideration) Abandon Ship! If things don't start looking like they're improving soon I'm considering setting up the 60g (48x24x12) and going traditional submersed in hopes of getting things to recover. I've got a nice 6x 54watt T5 light to put over that.

Thanks for the thoughts/advice folks. I feel like a total noob and this whole ordeal has been a big hit to my pride. Maybe that's a good thing though.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

How about some photos Phil? This looks like an interesting problem.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I'M SORRY denske and Cavan! I killed your gorgeous plants.  

Things are worse now than in the photos. Nearly all the old growth you see there is gone or severely browned. The only things that are looking halfway decent are the Laegenandra, Crypts, HC, and moss. Everything else is pretty much new growth on browned stems with much of what you see there actually totally dead and decaying stems.

Right side, taken about 3-4 weeks ago. 


Center


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> Things are worse now than in the photos.


It looks WORSE now? :twitch:

BTW, OMG, thats a MASSIVE emmersed setup. WOW!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Looks like the water level is too high actually. Have a really close look, do you see thin spider-web like threads on or around the plants (particularly near the HC)? 

Aggressive fungi love conditions that are too wet, also aquatic plants don't really like that level of wetness when growing emersed. They are adapted to either being fully submersed or fully out in the air, not really to half way between. 

Can you take a few really close up photos of the plants so we can see the damage?


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I'll post pictures as soon as I can, but it'll probably be Sunday before I can get to it. 

Zap, the plants were growing well, if showing some nutrient deficiencies, after a month and I hit them hard with a too-concentrated nutrient solution that resulted in the pics you see below That's just overnight from when I did the spray above. Since then they've continued to decline. 

I haven't looked for evidence of fungi like you've mentioned but haven't seen any. I have seen some mold on upper portions of stems and moss though. No little spider web fungi though.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm OK. I'll wait for the pics on Sunday.


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## denske (Jul 28, 2013)

What exactly is the temp of the room Phil? It's funny you say you seen mold on stems and mosses, I left one of my bins outside too long in the cold and seen similar effects on stems that I assumed was mold, but not really sure. 

I got plenty more stems if you need them bud, I say get a heater pointed at the tank and seal it up tight. I have bins that have incredible growth and sometimes doesn't even get the lid removed for 2 weeks at a time. 

Good luck bud.


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## BadBob (Jun 4, 2011)

If I don't put java moss around my plants I get lots of mold and the plants start to die. 

Just curious, why did you not use some sort of pots?


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Denske, 
I'm not sure of the exact temp, but it is on the chilly side. The room has a space heater suitable for the size going full bore right next to the tank. It's all sealed up tightly now. Hopefully that will help. What have you noticed among your plants? Dying tips? I didn't get mold until after the Fe&K overdose. I'm pretty sure that weakened the plants to the point where recovery is a touch and go thing. 


Bob,
My intention was/is to establish and grow the plants emerged while I get the filtration made and set up, and collect the other plants I need to scape the tank prior to filling it. This was never intended to be a long term emergent growth system. I've got a 220 slated for that purpose.


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## BadBob (Jun 4, 2011)

Phil Edwards said:


> Bob,
> My intention was/is to establish and grow the plants emerged while I get the filtration made and set up, and collect the other plants I need to scape the tank prior to filling it. This was never intended to be a long term emergent growth system. I've got a 220 slated for that purpose.


Ahhh, that makes perfect sense. I've considered doing that myself. Thanks.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Alright, here are the pics, post maintenance. I filled the tank halfway and circulated the water pretty hard for a couple hours to loosen up the dead stuff and try to get some ions out of the substrate. Pulled out as much decaying matter as I could, uprooted some stuff, and drained as much water as I could. Replanted the stems (mostly H. araguaia, I think) and refilled with water treated as above. I'm pretty surprised at how little pore space there actually is in the 3.5-4 inches of substrate...only about 2 gallons. I only got 1.8ish gallons in before I saw water at the surface of some depressions. The goal was to have a water table 1/4 or so below the substrate surface.

The roots on everything look pretty good-


Left half-


Right half-


FTS-


I noticed a lot of tiny new growth on most of the remaining stems. The H. pinnatifida, in particular, is putting out a ton of new growth.

Time to cross fingers and toes, and see how it goes.


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## denske (Jul 28, 2013)

Those roots look good, I'm sure they'll show new growth on the leaves very soon. If you need some more stems, let me know. I can get them to you after the new year.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Yeah, I was pretty surprised to see how good the roots were. I was expecting mostly brown mush. I feel a lot more comfortable with nutrition after seeing them. I think I'll start doing a weekly flush/water change too just to be on the safe side. I planted a couple stems right against the front glass to be able to see how everything's looking. Then again, who knows, being against cool glass may not be the best for them. Can't win for losing! 

No, the bulkhead's aren't open. I was just thinking of taking some of the tape off to get a little air in there since that's the side of the tank the space heater's on.

I'll let you know in a couple weeks. I may be purchasing a large batch of stuff and flooding the tank by then. We'll just have to see.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Is the overflow installed yet?


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Not yet Aaron. I still need to get the glass cut for it but am finding it harder than expected to find a place that will do it and be open when I can get there. I'll probably try Lowe's one more time this weekend.


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## saddletramp (Sep 16, 2012)

Phil, it is interesting that you never state what the temperature is. You give lots of other precise info.
The cooler the temp, he slower the metabolic rate of the plants, the less ferts, etc are utilized by the plants. Each plant has a day time temperature range in which it generally grows. Let's use 60 to 80 as an example
When you drop from 80F to 70F, plant metabolism reduces by about half. Go to 60F and it drops another 50%.
So, dropping from 80 to 60, the plants require about 25% of the ferts as compared to plants at 80F.
Just food for thought.
Bill


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Bill,

I have no idea what the exact temp is in the room, that's why I haven't said. I'd say it's somewhere in the 60 (ish) F range comparing how it feels in the room vs. the heated upstairs. I keep the rest of the house at 65 and the tank room is slightly cooler. Unfortunately I have no effective way of heating the tank by itself at this point. 

I looked in on the tank this morning and saw water on some of the leaves, which I consider a good thing. Sticking my hand in the tank it felt more humid compared to the ambient in the room.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I've seen others use seedling tray warmers purchased from ebay/amazon with good results. 

May not be necessary though. If you have a thermometer lying around in one of your tanks you could always use that to see, if not they only cost a dollar or two and are nice to have around.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Bill,

Temp in the tank is 60F. After starting a weekly as close as I can get to 100% water change, upping ferts, and leaving the water 1/2-1" (depending on rises and depressions in the substrate) below the substrate surface things are growing MUCH better. It's still pretty hard to get pics of all the new growth as it's pretty small; but it is there. Little stems are popping up all over the place.


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