# Thead/hair algea



## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm getting CRUSHED by thread/hair algea. I'm not sure which... This stuff is very long, slimy, and has a strong green color. Toothbrushs will pull much of it off, but not all of it. It breaks too easily.

My tank is a 75g, has 4x54watt T5HO Tek lighting (run on 10 on and 14 off) and pressurized C02 (24/7). My new drop checker says I have 40 PPM (I use a 5KH solution). I dose dry ferts using the EI method using spoons. I do weekly water changes of 50%. The tank is probably 70%+ planted and has been running for four years now.

I know spoons aren't the most accurate method of adding ferts and I seldom test. When I do test, fert levels are in check. I maintain 10-20ppm NO3 and 1-2ppm PO4 throughout the week.

Several large water changes (and immediately re-dosing) has done nothing.

Why am I getting slammed by this algea when things seem to be OK?


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

It's the same algae I have the most trouble with... It seems to prefer lots of light and I see it close to my lights in my larger tank, but it also likes stems, under leaves - so I get it in my denser Bacopa clumps in my small tanks. It also loves moss.

The one thing it really doesn't like is Excel. Try a 2x Excel dose a couple of times per week and see if that puts a dent in it. You may also want to consider cutting your photo period back a couple of hours.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Throw in a Florida Flag Fish too. They love this stuff and keep it from totally overtaking your tank until other actions that you take cause it to slowly recede and disappear over time.


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## Mr. Fish (Oct 24, 2007)

Its mainly due to non consistant Co2... You might wanna check your diffuser make sure your co2 is getting circulated properly, also adding a power head will help...
The only thing that really puts a dent in it is Flourish Excell. Use a baby syringe, cut your filter/powerhead off making sure theres no circulation, then squirt the excell right onto
the thread algae by letting it just sit in it.... after a couple days the algae will
turn red then by a week or so it will fall off...


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

Any algea eatting fish will get eatten in my tank. A Florida Flag fish wouldn't even get wet. I have three 8" Ctenolusious Hujetas (aka Blunt nosed Gars, Silver Gars, Freshwater Barracuda). They are NOT "true Gars" but they eat like them. They are members of the Characin family.

I use my Magnum 350 as a diffusor. I get 100% C02 dissolution with it. Other than slightly increasing my C02 bubble rate after getting the Drop checker, I haven't touched my bubble rate in months.

My regulator has a solenoid. I've run it with the lights, before the lights, and 24/7. No changes in algea.

I think the biggest issue with my tank is that stupid Tek Light. It's been almost a year and I still can't get the tank balanced. I've gone from one algea to another ever since I bought it. The tank embarrasses me and I'm ready to give up. This light has turned me into a complete noob again.

I haven't trimmed any plants in months, even my H. Angustifolia. Nothings growing. 

What the heck is this brown slime on all the leaves?

What is the first step when you get completely hammered by algea?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm just guessing here, but three 8" long predatory fish mush produce an insane amount of waste. How much / what do you feed them? I'm not familiar with that particular fish, but if it's anything like a typical gar they do have a little bit of mass to their bodies. How many cardinal tetras would it take to be an equivalent weight? 200? 300? more? Unless they only eat infrequently, my guess is that your algae issues are mostly stemming from your stocking level.


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## Bill Weber (Jul 17, 2005)

My tank is a 75g, and also has 4x54watt T5HO (2) Giessiman mid day and (2) Nova Lamps that came with the fixture. I am having algae problems as well. It is all over the dwarf hair grass, rocks, and gravel. I started to double dose with Excel which does stand down the algae growth but long term will be expensive to maintain. Tomorrow, I am going to cut down the 10 hour photo period to 8 hours and see if that makes a difference. Sometimes, maintaining a backyard lawn is easier than a 4' planted tank.:boxing:


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

guaiac_boy said:


> I'm just guessing here, but three 8" long predatory fish mush produce an insane amount of waste. How much / what do you feed them? I'm not familiar with that particular fish, but if it's anything like a typical gar they do have a little bit of mass to their bodies. How many cardinal tetras would it take to be an equivalent weight? 200? 300? more? Unless they only eat infrequently, my guess is that your algae issues are mostly stemming from your stocking level.


GB; These fish have the diameter of a Sharpie marker. They are fed frozen Krill once or twice a week. They generally won't eat every day. I always clean up any uneatten krill. I wouldn't consider the tank to be over stocked....but I've been wrong before. I doubt they weigh more than a few ounces apeice.

I went from having two strips (an All Glass 2x55CF unit and an All Glass triple 3x36NOF) to just the Tek 4x54 T5HO and it's been a nightmare ever since. The bulbs are either 6500 or 6700k. I forget the brand. I have basically the same watts 216 Vs 218 but I have much better reflectors with the T5's.

Could disturbing the substrate cause this mess? I sold a bunch of plants (Downoi) a few months ago and the tank (plant growth) never fully recovered. I use Flourite substrate which has Fe in it.

I'd find that hard to believe due to the fact that I do 50% water changes every week.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Ah, well then, not too much fish for a 75g then probably. It sounds like your CO2 and ferts should be in order but I think there is a huge clue in your second post. You say that the plants aren't growing. Algae problems and good plant growth seldom go together. When the plants aren't growing, all the light in the world will only benefit the algae.

I'm guessing (let's call this a second guess) that you're seriously defecient in something. More light might have driven an almost limitting nutrient to a critical low level. Are you dosing micros? I wouldn't assume that there is enough Fe or other traces in 4 year old flourite to accomplish much. By now it's probably given up whatever nutrients it had.

Green thread algae is one of the harder ones for me to figure out (have a bit in one tank right now), but for it always seems to be an issue up when I slack on dosing for a while.

What exactly are the parameters of the tank?

Photoperiod?
Fertilizer source, dose, & frequency?
Micro source?
How do you know the drop checker is accurate?
What test kits are you using for NO3 & PO4? Have you callibrated them?
What is your water source?

With 3 wpg of T-5 and high CO2 you have a very high demand setup. The nutrients have to be spot on or you'll get to a bad place very quickly. Even once you restore optimum conditions it will take a couple of weeks for the plants to recover. Once they do ---- whammo, the algae will be history.


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## gotcheaprice (Sep 4, 2007)

AHH!
I actually forgot about testing my water params xD
I'll do that tomorrow since I have HORRIBLE algae. My plants are growing though.


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

Tanks stats;

All Glass Aquarium. 75gallon.
Calculated volume=65gallons.

Temp=77
Gh=11
Kh=14
50% Flourite Substrate and 50% small natural gravel.

Magnum 350 used for filtration and as a diffusor. Filled with Walmart Poly-fill.
Hagen/Aquaclear surface skimmer.
3 Penguin 550 powerheads (run 24/7) used for current. Each has a foan prefilter.

I dose Dry Ferts on the EI method for 60-80 gallon tanks. My only deviation from EI is that I use 1/2 TSP KN03 instead of the recomended 3/4 TSP. Nitrates always seemed to pile up otherwise.

Trace is supplied by CSM+B.

50% water change weekly.

I assume the Drop checker is accurate. I used an AP KH test kit to make the solution (5Kh).

I use a Hagen/Nutrafin NO3 test kit. I have not tested it. If I add 5ppm N03, the kit shows the increase. Therefore I believe it's accurate.

I use a Seachem P04 test kit. This one is calibrated and accurate.

Plants; P. Helferii Downoi, H. Angustifolia, L. Arcuata, C. Wendtii, H. Zosterifolia, B. Japonica, Nymphoides "Taiwan", L. Cardinalis, Pogostemon Stellatus "Broadleaf", C. Lucens, C. Balansea,M. Mattogrossense, and Wendelov Fern.

All the plants are barely growing. The leafs are covered in a brown slime that wipes off easilly. The Cardinalis is covered in GSA. The Windelov gets coated in BBA.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Hmmmm. You might have the same crud I did in my 180g tank when I first set it up. People gave me tons of good ideas on this thread. Take a look at my photos and see if your stuff looks the same. When mine finally went away it virtually disapeared almost overnight. I've never seen anything like it.

Other random thoughts....... if you're cutting back on KNO3 from typical EI doses that's an excellent thing IMO, but you might need some supplemental potassium. Try adding a bit of K2SO4.

It sounds like your're going to have issues trying to use any fish or shrimp to eat the stuff. One idea that I did like was to cut down on the frequency of WC's. The goal was to keep things a bit more stable. I currently do a 20% WC 2 or 3 times a week with a very, very lean version of EI - sort of an EI/PPS hybrid technique.


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

Wow! Great thread GB. I'm going to read every word of it...twice.

You may be right about the Potassium. I sure have enough of it sitting around. Might just as well use it. Unless shrimp are at least 1.5" long, they'll probably get eaten in my tank. I'd love to have some though.

Right now the plan is to;

A. Get some Excel and knock this algea down. 
B. Fertilize the tank much more precisely.

Here's my questions;

1. Exactly what are silicates?
2. Where can I find those plastic dosing bottles? The ones that you squeeze and have a gradiated reservoir built-in.
3. I noticed you have a Pin Point C02 controller. I'm considering getting one. Is this a good idea?
4. (bonus question, Lol!) How the heck do you get R. Vietnam to grow? We both have pretty hard water and I kill the stuff.

Thanks for all the great info!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Ah, silicates......... Well, it's probably a bigger deal for reefers. They're dissolved compounds that seem to be important in the lifecycle of certain algae. Any connection between the algae I had in a planted freshwater application and silicates (or iron for that matter) is pretty speculative.

That said, I did go out and buy an RO system with an anti-silica membrane. I was pretty fed up in the middle of my algae issues and was willing to try different ideas. For the past year I've used reconstituted RO water in my 180g tank. I keep it pretty soft - about GH4, KH2. R. 'Vietnam' grows like an absolute weed - maybe an inch or more per day. It's my best indicator plant for low iron. White tips = add more iron = pretty green/pink tips again within about 12 hours. I think soft water is pretty important for it and R. wallachi.

I certainly don't think RO is necessary and maybe it wasn't even important in controlling my algae outbreak. I mostly use it now for the benefit of the fish, since I keep almost nothing but S. American tetras and dwarf chiclids. The algae isses "went away" and I didn't see much reason to change anything. Soft water is a nice luxury for certain "difficult" plant and fish species though.

The plastic dosing bottles are fabulous. One liter TMG fertilizer used to be packaged in them and I never threw the bottles away. Sometimes you can find them on ebay or plastic bottle distributors on the internet, although no sites are coming to mind at the moment.

My battle plan with your tank would be this:

- Manually remove as much algae as possible.
- Remove every shred of decaying or unhealthy plant material. Sick plants only cause more harm. Be aggressive. Cut deeeply. Half dead plants can recover in perfect conditions, but not in an algae swamp.
- Set the photoperiod to 7 or 8 hours and leave it alone. Always consider the needs of the plants first.
- Crank up CO2 a bit, but be sure you don't kill or stress your fish. Do this slowwwwwly.
- Try smaller, more frequent WC's to keep things in the tank stable. Aim for 40-50% total volume per week.
- Consider a good gravel vac. Do 1/2 of the tank at a time.
- Start a tank journal and be absolutely fanatical about precise and consistent fert dosing, at least until things settle down.
- Add no less than 2-3 ppm of PO4 per week (but not much more)
- Add no less than 6-8 ppm of NO3 per week (but not much more)
- Add around another 10 ppm of K per week.
- Add a hefty dose of micros at least 3 times per week. Your dose depends on your particular CSM mix. I use 1ml TMG/gallon/week and 0.5ml Flourish Fe/gallon/week.
- Consider adding some healthy fast growers to jump-start things.
- Excel is a great idea. It gets a bit expensive with big tanks. Don't kill your fish.
- Feed sparingly at least until things settle down.
- Sick algae-covered plants don't consume much in the way of nutrients. IME, the dosing above should be plenty even when healthy growth takes off.

Once things turn around you can relax about certain things. Once you get to a point where you have high-light, high-CO2, and a tank full of healthy, growing plants, it's actually pretty stable. Small upsets and minor nutrient issues are well tollerated. Running out of CO2 for three days isn't.


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

I've ordered the Excel, and two 500ml bottles of TMG (I hope I ordered the right one. The picture showed the bottle I want). Photoperiod has been re-set and I'm going to mix up some new ferts in a strength that I can accuarately does to your specs.

I'll post my results.

Thanks again for the help!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

You're welcome. Let us all know how it turns out.


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## cholly (Jun 12, 2007)

guaiac_boy said:


> Ah, silicates......... Well, it's probably a bigger deal for reefers. They're dissolved compounds that seem to be important in the lifecycle of certain algae. Any connection between the algae I had in a planted freshwater application and silicates (or iron for that matter) is pretty speculative.


Over on the reefing side of things silicates are raised as a sort of bogeyman issue every now and then, but largely without merit. They fuel the growth of diatoms, but if you keep phosphate levels low (as you'd very much want to, in a reef tank) then it doesn't matter if you've got a ton of silicates or not. I kept a 60g reef tank for several years with a 3" deep bed of ultra-fine silica sand and never had anything more than mild nuisance levels of diatoms. I can see how with a FW planted tank diatoms could become much more of a headache, as most of the solutions that would curb them in SW wouldn't work in FW.

(guaiac_boy, looking over your old thread, I'd bet good money on your switching to RO water as having been the reason your tank beat it's diatom problems. A few companies specifically manufacture RO membranes designed to aggressively remove silicates, the Kold-Steril line being the most well known.)


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, but diatoms were only a small part of the problem. Things quickly converted to a slime algae that was something else altogether. Fortunately it seems to be rare in the hobby. Only a few people seem to have more than transient problems with it. In my smaller 46g tank I use the same regular tapwater with no algae issues at all. My RO unit does use an anti-S membrane, but the benefit is pretty much uncertain.


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

It's been about a week now and everything is going great! I have just a little thread algea starting. What I'm dosing now may need a little fine tuning. BBA is gone. Brown crud on leaves is gone! GDA hasn't reappeared...yet.

I cleaned the tank, gravel vac'd thoroughly, and tossed all the algea covered plants.

I mixed up new ferts (using Chuck Gadds calculator) and here is what I came up with;

25grams KN03 into 250ml water= .25ppm/ml
7grams P04 into 250ml water=.08ppm/ml
1 TSP/week of potassium=10.95ppm (not accounting for "free" K in KN03).

I combined the KN03 and P04 into one bottle. From that I dose 12ml 3x/week. (I used 12ml because I have a syringe that holds 12ml exactly.) For the week, that's a total of 9ppm N03 and 2.88 P04. 

Plant growth is picking up, especially the Downoi. Plant health is great! No defficiencys spotted yet (it's only been a week). I still get pearling towards the end of the photo period. The Pogostemon Stellatus "Broadleaf" is getting redder. My Drop checker is yellowish in the morning but turns green and stays that way the rest of the day.

I now have a 2 liter jug of Excel that I don't think I'll need. I might even put my C. Moehlmanniis back in there since the BBA seems to be on the run.

Thanks again GB! Let me know if you need any plants!

John


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Wonderful. It sounds like you have it on the run. The key at this point is to keep things nice & steady for a while until it really settles down. Avoid any huge trims, don't mess with the photoperiod, keep WC's consistent, don't slack off on the ferts, and most importantly - keep the CO2 steady.

Once your plants really start to grow and put on mass you'll be in a spot where the tank will tollerate little variations and small upsets without going belly-up.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

You may have already found your source for the dosing bottles but if not, US Plastics sells them
Dosing Bottles


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

MatPat said:


> You may have already found your source for the dosing bottles but if not, US Plastics sells them
> Dosing Bottles


Thanks for the link! These are very handy items to have. I may need a couple more. My thread/hair algea seems to be picking back up again.

I'm currently dosing 9ppm/week of KN03 and 2.88ppm/week P04 (or about a 3 to 1 ratio). This is more than half the N03 I was dosing previously.

GB recomemended 6-8ppm N03 and 2-3ppm P04. That would give me a ratio range of anywhere from 1-2 and 1-4. I'm at about 1-3.

Perhaps my N03 is still a little high? I'm thinking about mixing up two more bottles. One with KN03 and P04 in a 1-2 ratio and one with a 1-4 ratio. Then run each for a month and check results. Sound OK?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

How is the flow from your Magnum? I used to use a Magnum 350 with floss from WalMart as a CO2 reactor also. I found that as the floss starts to clog, the flow decreases. When the flow decreases it becomes less efficient as a reactor. That may not be bad in itself, but when you consider you are running four 54w T-8 lamps for a 10hr photoperiod... 

I've often wondered how much NO3 is being created in the Magnum when the floss clogs. I know my floss has been pretty nasty on the inside while the outside appears to be only partly dirty. I would take a good look at the floss and maybe switch it out for some other type of media like some ceramic rings, bioballs, etc. 

I would also look at your plants for some signs that they are getting enough light. Do any of them begin to close up prior to the end of your 10 photoperiod? I know my L. aromatica leaves begin to point vertically (from their usual horizontal position) at about 8 hours, signifying the plant has had enough light for the day. I'm using 96w of T-8 light and 110w of CF, not nearly as intense as the light you are using. Your plants may actually be getting enough light prior to the end of your 10hr photoperiod and shut down their intake of nutrients. 

Check those three possibilities (filter flow, dirty floss, and photoperiod) as any of them could be the cause of higher nitrates. I'm betting on the photoperiod being the culprit


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## Marauder (Apr 17, 2006)

I have noticed leaves begining to fold up at the end of the photoperiod. I'm on an 8 hour PP now and and haven't seen that since.

I'm looking into a different filter and diffusor set up. The Magnum got used because I had it. It runs fine but getting the right amount of Poly-fil in it is a hit or miss proposition.

I'll check into everything. Thanks!


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

I guess I have thread algae on some of my plants. Have 1/4 inch hair on some of the stems. I am going on vacations soon, thus don't have time to get it under control. Will it affect the fish?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

dawntwister said:


> I guess I have thread algae on some of my plants. Have 1/4 inch hair on some of the stems. I am going on vacations soon, thus don't have time to get it under control. Will it affect the fish?


The algae shouldn't effect the fish unless it gets to the point where they can't swim through it 

You may want to look into dropping your photo period a bit while you are gone. This probably won't make the algae recede but it may keep it from growing to fast while you are gone.


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