# Can't get enough CO2!



## gsg (Feb 17, 2005)

Good morning everyone!

This is my first post here, but I've beeing reading all of you for long. Great forum!.

I just got my 10 gallon tank running one and a half weeks ago. I have 45w of fluorescent lighting and already received my complete pack of fertilizers from Mr. Watson to start with the estimative index schedule. For the CO2, i am going with the DIY sistem, and that's where i am finding my biggest problems up to date. As a reactor i use the intake tube from my HOB filter so the small pump can chop the bubbles, but i don't seem to achieve too much gas disolution this way, just got 15ppm as a maximum!, so i guess doing this is not that good as a reacting method . 

So my question is if there is a better method to disolve the gas, like for example the Hagen Ladder (which i am planning to buy). I would like to hear the disolution rates all you DIYers out there can achieve. Please note that i can`t make a reactor using the fiter outtake, as my HOB filter gets water back to the tank with a small waterfall (which i try to minimize with the water level).

So please, advice me if i should go with the ladder method. I would like to know if it works better than what i am doing know before i buy it.

Thanks in advance, and excuse me if there are any spelling mistakes as this is not my motherlanguage (I'm writing from Spain).

Best regards,

Guillermo


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Welcome to APC, Guillermo. I have never used the ladder, but did use diy in the past. What kind of HOB do you have? If it's the bio-wheel type, that's not good for CO2, as the biowheel tends to diffuse out too much of the gas. I had a AC HOB, and it worked well for me. Part of the problem may be that you're using diy. You have less control over the amount of gas produced. For more gas, use a larger bottle for your yeast/sugar mix.


----------



## gsg (Feb 17, 2005)

Hi Bert:

Thanks for your reply.

My HOB filter it's a Mini Aquaclear (I think it's the same than yours if that was what you mean by AC). I think that my problem relies more on the difussion method rather than on the production, as I use a 2 liter soda bottle which at first was producing like 2 bubbles every second (of course this rate did not last long). But from what I read in this forum, this rate should have been sufficient to achieve higher CO2 readings than 15ppm with an efficient diffusion method, considering it's a 10 gallon (8gl nominal), am I right?.

So this is why I am asking for people's diffusion rates, just to see if the DIY CO2 can make it any better or if this is all it can do with what I have. And I just see the Hagen Ladder as a solution for the type of filter I´ve got, I would like to hear people's opinions on it.

Regards


----------



## SnyperP (Dec 10, 2004)

I've tried many different methods for diffusing CO2 into my 10g. 

First i went with the absolutely nothing. Obviously that didn't work very well. I tried ceramic air stones. Better results, but they still released large bubbles. After that i tried a bamboo chopstick. You break the tip off of the chopstick and insert into your tubing. I was rather suprised that it worked at all! The only problem with this method is that it gets rather loud after awhile. You can hear the co2 making whistling noises after a week. After that method i tried plumbing it into a dyi canister filter (don't ask, horrible results). 

Then i switched to a limewood diffuser. So far it's given me the best results, but limewood diffusers are rather expensive. I believe at my lfs there about 3-4 dollars each. They last for about two months. After that the diffusion rate is poor. I believe it gets clogged. I'm searching for a glass/ceramic co2 diffuser similiar to the ADA ones. I've seen a few boyu brands but they cost more than prices i've seen before.

Just curious, whats your fertilizer regiment going to look like for you 10g?


----------



## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Welcome to the board!

I've used the ladder with even pressurized C02, and it's just slightly better than nothing (IMO).

How many bubbles is your generator producing for you? If it's less than 1 every 5 seconds or so, it could be that your yeast isn't reacting the way it should.

The other question is, how high is your KH? If it's rather high, it's going to buffer the water more and makes it harder for the C02 to make much difference.

As for diffusion, I'm thinking about trying the method I use in my power reactors, which is a wad of Ehfifix (the Eheim stuff that looks like Easter grass) wrapped and secured around the end of the C02 tubing to break up the bubbles. I know it works great in my power reactors for busting the bubbles up, and it doesn't clog like the sponges do.

You do have to be a little careful with a few types of airstones because they can easily clog and cause something within your DIY setup to let go and maybe even burst. :shock:


----------



## gsg (Feb 17, 2005)

Well, yesterday after work, and before reading your last responses, I went ahead bought the ladder and installed it. To tell you the truth, my first impressions on the ladder aren't that good. First of all it's quite big for a 10 gal, it's difficult to hide it in, and considering the busy groth that we like at this forum on our tanks, it could make the ladder stop working as plant leaves and branches could get on the way of the bubbles through the ladder. So, it may be too early to drop conclusions now, i'll have to test for CO2 rates this weekend (my kH it's somewhere between 4 and 4'5, so i guess i should see some pH drops if the ladder works, will post results) but i am not seeing more than a 20% size reduction of the bubbles from the bottom to the top. I thought, not having seen the ladder working before, that the bubbles would take a longer time in conctact with water but us soon as they pop out of the tubeline they start racing to the top along the ladder not taking too long until they are gone on the surface. I am also going to try to insert a piece of sponge at the last step of the ladder to trap the bubbles before leaving and increase contact time.

If this does not work at all, then I'll try what you Snyper suggested with the limewood diffuser. Haven't done this before because I thought that there was not enough pression on our DIY systems to make one of these work, but if you say it's possible, then they are next on the solution list.

Then I don't know what would be next, it seems that power reactors are the way to go, and i thought my AC HOB filter would have done the job... My 10gal is to small to through a powerpump in there. Perhaps a Canister filter with an inline reactor, but thats more bucks!. This is really braking my schemes, I did not spected to have all this trouble with the CO2. This is part of the learning curve I guess.

About my fertilizer regiment, for the one week I've been running it, it seems more like the PPS system than the EI. I have made 500ml solutions for each component and dose it according to my test results to mantain the suggested values for each, but keeping them on the low range until i get the CO2 right. So that is one test for each, see results and dose until I reach the desire level. I am going to do this until I get a hold on tank and know better whats going inside. The rutine is the one marked on EI, one weekly 50% WC, dose macros, and micros on the other day. For the lights i have a 3*15w tubes fixture which i can turn on and off independently. I have lights on for 8 hours, two hours (the first and the last one) just with 15 watts and 6 hours (in the middle) with all 45wts running. I don't want to run the tank at full speed until i get more CO2 dissolved.

What do you think about this? Can i hear Snyper about your fertilizer regiment? how long do you have lights on?.

Well, sorry for the long post. If anyone has anymore input on diffusion methods or any other comment I would like to hear.

Thank you!.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Gsg,

For the CO2 to accumulate you must reduce the surface agitation to nothing. HOB filters don't do that very well, but you can keep trying. Some people use the successfully. For a 10 gal. tank this filter is the cheapest and best choice.

Buy a limestone and place it close to the bottom and see how much CO2 you get disolved. For now the limestone is the most efficient cheap way to disolve CO2.

Also - if your CO2 is not enough yet you should not play with fertilizers too much especially with the 45 watts of light that you have. In general when you start a planted tank you should have everything ready and running or the chance to induce algae is very big.

--Nikolay


----------



## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

Guillermo. I am not a fan of the Hagen ladder for the same reason you've stated: too large and conspicuous in the tank. I would return the ladder and use the cash as an investment towards one of the following:

(1) Use a canister filter (either a Zoomed 501 or one of the smaller Eheim models). It functions both for filtration and CO2 diffusion as you can simply bubble CO2 into the intake tube. This solves the issues of both (a) unsightly in-tank diffusers and (b) excessive surface agitation, allowing you to maximize the yeast co2 setup. Total cost: ~50-60 USD.

(2) Keep your current Aquaclear HOB filter and invest in a pressurized CO2 unit (or increase your yeast CO2 production by adding an additional bottle or a larger bottle). Doing so allows you to bubble more CO2 into the intake tube to offset the surface agitation created by the HOB filter. Total cost: ~100-120 USD.

These, I feel, are your most viable options. A 10 gallon tank is small already so every available square inch is precious. As such, I personally would not sacrifice any of the real estate for a ladder or any other obtrusive equipment.


----------



## SnyperP (Dec 10, 2004)

Another option i was considering but I could never find the materials for ( i don't smoke cigarettes, and no one seems to be willing to give up a filter off of one!) is using a cigarette filter. Unused of course. Someone mentioned it to me, just break it off and insert it into the tube. No idea how well that would work, but it's cheap!


----------



## Aqua1 (Mar 2, 2005)

I have used the Hagen Ladder and not having too much success with it. I believe it is rather difficult for smaller tank to achieve good steady CO2 rate. I am getting ready to start up my compress CO2, too tired to produce the yeast prodution and not knowing if it starts up everytime. Although I have success yeast generating every time, I am not getting the CO2 to dissolve in my tank. Regards, JC.


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

cS said:


> (1) Use a canister filter (either a Zoomed 501 or one of the smaller Eheim models). It functions both for filtration and CO2 diffusion as you can simply bubble CO2 into the intake tube.


this may sound really basic, but i just want to make sure im reading this correctly before i do it. just set the hose close to your intake so it sucks up the bubble's and diffuses it through your canister filter? ill be using a fluval 304.
great topic as i use two hagen ladder/ canisters for my 55gal. (i know, i know, i really should use pressurized, but its really not an option right now.)


----------



## Tiptoptank (Mar 28, 2005)

Ladders are just an atempt to make someting that works that failed. No one buys them and people that do end up buying sometime more up to par.

First off I would say you probly will buy a pressurized Co2 but, I did the DIY thing for awile and I know that co2 is a big first expence. I agree with that a HOB filter is very bad for a 10 VERY VERY bad 8). THere is so little water that even putting your hand in the tank for a min would make you lose your Co2. THat little trickle that comes out the filter is definately your problem. Go buy a small canister filter. check out www.marinedepot.com they have good prices on ehiem 2213(75$) and fluval 104's(55$). Also, are you useing Co2 proof tubing? That could definatly be the problem ass well. I would send the tube into the filter intake(a rubber band does the job) and this sould get your co2 way up.

I hear of people useing 3-7 bubbles second on there 50 gallon tanks and thats just rediculus. I use about a bubble a second on ym 55 and I have my co2 at 30-35 all day and my tank is 100% fully planted. I just send my co2 though my Fluval 304 which I turned into a great reactor. Here are the plans for the mod if you want them.

Awile back i made the mistake of buying a "trash can". I got agravated with the bin setup it had going on inside cause it used up alot of valueble media space. 
So what I did is took all three bins out and the foam holder thing and the bin top, so I had pretty much a empty bucket.

I then took the bins and stored them away in case my project didn't work.

Then i took the foam holder and traced it on some 1/16in plastic(I used one of those big flat stroage bin tops you put under your bed). then I cut out the peice and cut a gap in the bottom so water can pass under it.I alos drilled acouple of holes for added curculation. It looked like this.









I put this insert on the foam filter side of the bucket and slide the foam holder back in to place.

It looked like this









In the end I put "one" of the bins back in the filter on the bottom with the biomedia that came with it. Then I filled the rest of the media side with bioballs and put the bin top thing back on. But, you could fill it with what ever you want.

The filter actually run quieter and in the end much better. I hope this helps all you trash caners.

PS: I have been runnig it for months now and nothing has gone faulty in the moter if anything it runs better. But, if it does fuval will never know you tampered with it cause you didn't modify the filter it self in anyway. >8)


----------



## jrIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I us this reactor
http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/pr210.html

It fits inside of my old "Skilter" HOB filter. The skilter was pretty much of a joke for a reef tank but the filter tank is large enough for this small reactor to fit into.
I drive my Ph down to 6.5 from 8.

JR


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

:shock: how did you know i kept those under my bed!? is the plastic between the foam just to keep the bioballs in place, or is there some other purpose for it? does the CO2 mess up bacterial filtration process inside the filter?
thats an awesome setup, ill try a variation on that until im completely setup, as i need to use some polywool for a bit.  nice job, thanks for the response!


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Tiptop, have you been running that Fluval long enough to experience a big gas bubble going thru the impeller? Or does the CO2 dissolve fast enough to avoid that? I have a Fluval 104 for a 29 gallon tank and I like your modification, but I do worry that eventually the foam side will fill up with gas and burp into the impeller, causing either a flow stoppage or a broken impeller.


----------



## Tiptoptank (Mar 28, 2005)

There is a good amount of gas built up in the filter. But with the bioballs and some filter whool it stays in there. It burbs every once in awile but it has never stopped the filter. I would suggest buying a seperate timer for the co2 to turn off an hour before the light since the gas does build up and leave a bubble in the filter. 

The insert is there just to hold the media in place and make the water pass under and through all the media. It really makes the filter alot better. I would suggest useing bioballs and some really good bactrial media. Since 1gallon of bioballs is rated for something like 50 gallons the bioballs alone wont cut it. I used the ceramic tublets in the bottom basket them filled the rest with 2/3 of a gallon of bioballs. 

I run about 1 bubble a second and my Ph stays put at 6.5, and anyone can't say that isn't awesome. THe filter setup with the bioball really makes it a top of the line reactor.

As for the bio of the filter it still works great, but I really don't know. I really only rely on the filter for co2 mixing and mechanical filtration since the plants bring my nitrates and ammonia to 0 within 3 days. But, it still keeps the water clean. I don't think the Co2 bothers the nitratifling bactria becuase that means the water passing though the filter on a tank with a seprate reactor would have the same problem. It's still the same amount of Co2. I think the bubble stays near the top of the filter anyway, and couldn't be much more then a 1/2 inch thick. That leaves like 10 inches of filter still in the water holding bactria.

O, one more thing. If you look at a stock filter you will notice that there is a little space between the top moter housing and the filter canister were water can pass. It's only about a 1/8 inch but if the filter even got alittel clog you can ganentee thats were most of you water will go. That is bad since little to no water would be passing through the media. In my mod this eliminates the problem. Just make sure to pull the insert up so it's about an inch out of the filter when you put the top back on. The top will push the insert down just enough to make a tight seal between the compartment. And then no more crapy bipass.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you, Tiptoptank! I will have to look at the innards of the filter more closely. I'm inclined to try filter wool in the bottom compartment, hoping that would stop any big bubble, then the ceramic biological elements followed by an empty container. I will not be setting up the aquarium for another couple of months, following a move, but these forums sure have been good for planning the best way to do so.


----------



## The_Holy_Bull (Apr 27, 2005)

The zoomed 501 for 30 bucks
filter


----------



## Tiptoptank (Mar 28, 2005)

Just make the mod and use biobballs and ceramics (ceramincs on the bottom)
The burb of air is broken into many little air bubbles by the bioballs causeing no harm to the filter.


----------



## gsg (Feb 17, 2005)

Hi, there has been a similar thread going on in another forum, I thought that perhaps you may be interested in the different opinions:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17446


----------



## Aqua1 (Mar 2, 2005)

How are you coming along with that Hagen Ladder. I used to own one and just when I was about ready to sell it, I notice the bubbles finally gotten the way that I was expecting and then pearling in seven direction. I still think the ladder has its advantages but I also believe your DIY CO2 recipe has to be correct to begin with. I am now using compressed CO2. Nothing wrong with DIY but I just kind of gotten over that already. You also have to remember water paramaters are much difficult to achieve in a 10 Gallon. Beleive me I know I have one.Regards, JC.


----------



## Torontoman5 (May 13, 2005)

What I did when I couldn't get enough CO2 in my 75 gal with DIY was take a hose into the tank with no airstone on it and let it bubble under a piece of driftwood that was in the tank. The wood had a natural cavity on the underside of it and trapped the CO2 like a bell. This worked fantastic except that every once in a while a big bubble of excess CO2 would gurgle to the surface but I was amazed at how well it worked. I also can't figure why people say you can't get enough CO2 for a 75 with DIY. I use a 4 liter juice container - 3 cups sugar, 1/2 tsp yeast - and my tank can hit 35 ppm at lights on.


----------



## gsg (Feb 17, 2005)

Aqua1 said:


> How are you coming along with that Hagen Ladder. I used to own one and just when I was about ready to sell it, QUOTE]
> 
> Finally, like someone here advised, i went back to the shop and gave back the ladder for store credit, and i bought a 2nd hand canister filter which i am now using as a reactor.
> I agree with your comment about how difficult it is to mantain water parameters in a 10gal. Now my problem is that my bottom layer of fertilized substrate (jbl) is leaking carbonates and i am getting kh fluctuations from 4º at water changes up to 7 by the end of the week!. I guess i'll have to take that out and start again with a better inert substrate. This is the never ending story, its a tough way for the beginner at planted tanks!  but i am enjoying it anyway.
> Regards!


----------



## Neptun (Dec 18, 2004)

I've put a cigarette filter at the end of my co2-tubing and it breaks the bubbles very nicely. Much more efficient than I thought it would be. Have only compared it to a ceramic stone, and the cigarette filters are way better!


----------



## waylander (May 22, 2005)

SnyperP said:


> Another option i was considering but I could never find the materials for ( i don't smoke cigarettes, and no one seems to be willing to give up a filter off of one!) is using a cigarette filter. Unused of course. Someone mentioned it to me, just break it off and insert it into the tube. No idea how well that would work, but it's cheap!


Go to any quality tobacconist (they're getting harder and harder to find)

ask for "cotton cigarette filters"

you should be able to get 100 or so for less than $5.00

these are generally for people who roll their own smokes ( I did the last 6 months before I quit). Never occurred to me to use them as a diffuser...

sK!


----------



## gnome (Jan 27, 2004)

Guillermo,

I had the same problem as you - I couldn't get enough CO2 in my water. For about a year, I used passive diffusers (overturned bottle caps attached to the end of the CO2 line) - in the tank, in the filter (AquaClear Mini), two at a time, larger-diameter caps, and I continued getting very poor growth. I borrowed a Hagen ladder from a friend, and I saw very little improvement. Finally, I put a small pump (MiniJet 404) and fashioned the CO2 outlet to the intake (at the lowest flow) and saw some marked improvement in plant growth, but still not great. Then I was chatting with the owner of a very popular LFS in San Francisco and was discussing my problem with him. He said that for a 10-gallon tank that's planted, simply stop using the filter. The power filter is driving out a lot of the CO2. However, I like to dose my fertilizers in the filter box. So I tried his suggestion but turned on the filter only to dose my fertilizers (about 5 minutes) and unplugged it. Suddenly, I was seeing GOOD growth and pearling. 

I just set up a 20-gallon tank and am using the same set-up with a MiniJet 404, DIY CO2, and AC Mini for dosing. However, I know I need something better, so I'm going to try putting together a more efficient reactor. I can still use the 404, but I'll need to get some additional parts and do some drilling and assembling. You can find numerous DIY instructions on how to make your own reactor.

Sorry I can't give you numbers. I prefer to use my plants' growth as a gauge. All I can say is that turning off the power filter helped the situation immensely. But I guess it's a moot point if you got yourself a canister filter. Good luck! Be persistent, and you'll be rewarded with little streams of bubbles from your plants  . 

-Naomi


----------



## gsg (Feb 17, 2005)

Hi Naomi,

Thank you all for your input.

I have been battling all this time with the CO2 issue and had modified a few things since then.

I am no longer using the canister filter intake to plug my c02 line into it, as one day I had all the content in the bottle spilled into the tank due to negative pressure building inside the pop bottle. Also until this incident, I had lots of very small C02 bubbles scaping through the filter outlet which meant not all the C02 was dissolving in the canister. So I finally went with the DIY inline reactor and now all of it is getting disolved.

The problem now is that as i have a high light tank, and as I have not being able to get anymore than 15 - 20 ppm CO2 dissolved with the latest set up (DIY CO2 and DIY inline reactor), I am having some problems with hair algae which I've read needs higher concentrations of Co2 (30 - 35ppm) to disappear. 

So that is where I am now, one problem after another and keeping with the steep learning curve! . Also I am saving for a regulator and a co2 tank and go finally with the pressurized system. The way to go!.


----------

