# Dosing Ferts



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Well I am new to the planted tanks and am tryiing to figure out a dosing schedule and amounts I should be dosing. I was wanting to use Tom Barr's method and have read about it but am still not understanding it completely.
Here's what it looks like:

My setup is:

75G tank
3-4 inches of ECO-complete
260W of CF with 2tubes being 6500K and 2 being 6500K/10000K on a timer for 6hrs a day.
pressurized CO2 w/a powered reactor
Magnum 350 filter

I got my ferts from Greg Watson and after talking to him ordered what he recomended which was:
CSM+B
Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4)
Potassium Nitrate (KN03)


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

You have a VERY small plant mass in the tank. With as much light as you have, you'll have much better luck (less algae) if you can find larger quantities of some cheap, fast-growing stem plants to get things started. You can remove them later if you'd like once the tank is established and the others have grown in a little.

The plants in there now aren't going to remove that many nutrients from the water column until they are much larger. You can start off dosing pretty lightly. With what you have, maybe start off like this:

KNO3 to total 10-15 ppm / week with 50% WC
You probably won't need the K2SO4, as K will be supplied by KNO3 (some controversy here)
You'll need a source of PO4. You can use either Fleets (yes, the enema), or get some KH2PO4. I'd dose that to maybe 2 or 3 ppm /week.
I'm sure others would have slightly different opinions. I don't use CSM+B so I'll let others comment there.

Most people dose macros & micros on alternating days.

If you decided to plant quite heavily you could do maybe 20-30 ppm NO3 / week and 5 pmm PO4 /week with more micros too.

You can use the fertilator to figure out quantities to give you a desired concentration.

6 hrs/day of light is on the low end for most plants. You'll have less algae, but your plants might not have enough time to grow very well.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

You'll need a source of PO4. You can use either Fleets (yes, the enema), or get some KH2PO4. I'd dose that to maybe 2 or 3 ppm /week.
I'm sure others would have slightly different opinions. I don't use CSM+B so I'll let others comment there.

Well I went to CVS and got the Fleet enema. Its the liquid Saline Laxative, is this the correct one to use to get the PO4 that I need. How do I dose it the way?


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

As suggested by Guiac Boy, increase your plant mass if at all possible. Any plants will do as long as you get a bunch in there to start the tank up.

For dosing, I found when I was new it was easiest to establish a routine for fertilization. Here is the schedule I used in my 75g when I started:
 
Day 1 - 50% water change, add ½ tsp KNO3 and 2ml Fleets
Day 2 - 15ml CSM+B
Day 3 - ½ tsp KNO3, 2ml Fleets
Day 4 - 15ml CSM+B
Day 5 - ½ tsp KNO3, 2ml Fleets
Day 6 - 15ml CSM+B
Day 7 - Rest and enjoy your tank J 
 
1/2 tsp of KNO3 will give you about 7ppm of NO3 and 1ml of Fleet Enema will give you approximately 0.5 ppm in a 75g tank (66g actual water volume).

You can probably cut back to 10ml or so of the CSM+B since you have lower plant mass right now. CSM+B is about triple the cost of the other two ferts you received from Greg so that is why I mention cutting back a little


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I just re-read your post. If you purchased Fleet's Saline laxative check the ingredients before adding any to your tank. The ingredients should be listed on the box as Monobasic Sodium Phosphate and Dibasic Sodium Phosphate. Please check that you have the correct type of Fleet Enema as I do believe they make a Sodium - only based enema and that doesn't supply any phosphate. I may be wrong but better safe than sorry


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

The active ingredients on the side of the box are:

Monobasic sodium phosphate 
Dibasic sodium phosphate

so I am right to assume this is the correct one?

Also I hate to ask a dumb question but this is all new to me. When you talked about dosing the CSM+B at 15ml. What amounts of water and CSM+B do you mix to get the proper solution? Does this need to be refrigerated after its mixed?

I also added a fair amount of plants over the weekend. If I remeber correctly about 7 bunches of stem plants, a Amazon sword, & three crypts. Hope that enough to help out some.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The extra plants will definately help. Yes, it sounds like your enema is the one tanks prefer. Don't get any of the pre-lube gunk on the tip in your tank though. I did some calculations once and I believe that for a 75 gallon tank 1 ml of fleets will give you almost exactly 0.5 ppm of PO4. Be careful - a very, very small amount goes a long way.

About the CSM+B dosing - many people report using this or that amount of mixed solution. Those same people never report how much powder they're putting in their mix. Just a pet peeve of mine. I think the usual is 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) in 500 ml of water, but DOUBLE CHECK this since I'm not sure.

Send some more pics! - and good luck


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

guaiac_boy said:


> About the CSM+B dosing - many people report using this or that amount of mixed solution. Those same people never report how much powder they're putting in their mix. Just a pet peeve of mine. I think the usual is 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) in 500 ml of water, but DOUBLE CHECK this since I'm not sure.


This can be part of the trouble when mixing up dry ferts 

I followed Greg Watson's recommendations of using 1 tbsp of Plantex CSM to 500ml of water that he has on his site. After doing some reading on the various forums it seemed that most folks actually use 2 tbsp per 500ml, instead of Greg's recommended mix. I have always left out the Mg Sulfate though it probably wouldn't hurt to add it.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Well so far I think the tank is coming along pretty well. After a case of algae bloom, I've got it cleared up pretty well. I'm going to leave the Magnum 250 on for a couple more days to help polish the water a little more. I'm running my lights in two stages with 130W for 8hrs. and the other 130W for 10hrs. a day. Should I stay with this routine? Here's some pictures with the additional plants. The breeder tank upside down in the left corner is protecting my HC until it gets a good start.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Looking good. When you say you run your lights in stages what do you mean exactly? Most people that are aiming for a 'noon burst' keep the maximum light on for about 4 hours or so.

The tank will really look nice when the plants grow in a little bit and the cloudy water goes away. Does this look like green water or whitish? It's a little hard to tell from the photos. Either way it will probably clear up on its own after things settle in.

The only downside about the breeder tank is that it might be really cutting down on the light available to the HC, slowing its ability to get going.


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Coming along nicely. I am curious about your lights as the tank looks very dim for 130w over a 75g. It may be the picture or it may be due to the cloudiness. I run my lights in a similar way...one is one for 12 hours and one for 8 hours. The front light comes on an hour after the back and goes off and hour before the back. Some do use the noon blast technique but I think they are using much more light over smaller tanks.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

*Mixing CSM+B+Fe*



MatPat said:


> This can be part of the trouble when mixing up dry ferts
> 
> I followed Greg Watson's recommendations of using 1 tbsp of Plantex CSM to 500ml of water that he has on his site. After doing some reading on the various forums it seemed that most folks actually use 2 tbsp per 500ml, instead of Greg's recommended mix. I have always left out the Mg Sulfate though it probably wouldn't hurt to add it.


My technique is to first get the bottle I want to keep the mixed liquid in - a 238 ml cough syrup bottle works very well, it is brown and has a 3 ml dose cup on the top. Then I figure out how much of the Fe, for example, I want to dose at a time, and figure out how much has to be in the 3 ml dose cup to equal that. That gives me the numbers to calculate how much dry mix to add to the 238 ml cough syrup bottle. That was a lot less than 1 tsp. As a result the stuff dissolves easily, doesn't get clumps in it, doesn't get growths in it, etc.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

MatPat said:


> Coming along nicely. I am curious about your lights as the tank looks very dim for 130w over a 75g. It may be the picture or it may be due to the cloudiness. I run my lights in a similar way...one is one for 12 hours and one for 8 hours. The front light comes on an hour after the back and goes off and hour before the back. Some do use the noon blast technique but I think they are using much more light over smaller tanks.


I'm running a Current Orbit with 4 65W lights, 2 being 6500K/10000K CP's and the other two being 6500K CP's. The first that comes on is the dual bulb on the front for 10hrs. Then the other set comes on for 8hrs during the 10hr span. So basically it sound like I am running it simular to the way you are. I will try to get some better pics up when it clears up better. I think it looks dim because of the cloudiness in the tank. Thanks for the input.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Is my CSM+B still ok to use? After I mixed it up what is in the bottle has a film or something growing on top of it. Should I mix up a new batch or can this still be used?

Thanks


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I used to get a sheetlike, opaque film on my mixture when I used the regular CSM+B (I'm using the CSM+B with extra iron now) and always used it after a good shake to break up the film a bit. I'm not sure what it is but I wouldn't worry about it as long as it stays opaque or "whitish" in color. 

By all means, if you feel uneasy about using it, toss it out and make up a new, smaller batch. While CSM+B isn't exactly cheap, it is far cheaper than the commercial micro ferts out there


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Ok here are some update pictures of the tank. So far it is turning out pretty good. But what can I do about the algae on the plants. I'm new to this and not sure of the type, do I need to get rid of it. If I do how do I go about it?

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

More CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

Yup. Thats BBa. Add more co2. Alot more.

Also try and scrape off as much as possible. You can also try over dosing with exel. Also Bleach bath will help if a plant is too fragile.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I agree with the above. You need to add CO2 and keep it consistently high. If you manage to do this while keeping your ferts in order the algae will slowly back off. Be patient, it can take several weeks. Leaves that are severly infested will probably have to go. Most plants will tollerate loosing up to 1/2 of their leaves without too much trouble. Really nasty leaves won't be helping the plant much anyway.

Overall, the tank is looking good. The excel overdose thing has many threads on this forum. You can try it if you'd like. Personally, I think raising my CO2 did more.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

My preference would be to increase the CO2 bubble rate a little bit every day or so until you see some fish in distress. Then back down a bit. That level should be appropriate and is the right level for your tank. I'm betting you have a lot less CO2 in the water now than you think you have. Don't bet the farm on the KH/PH/CO2 charts.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Sounds good I will increase my CO2 rate. Another question, I picked up a SMS 122 Controller that I am going to set up tomorrow. After I calibrate it what should I set the Ph set point to for the alarm? The last times I have took readings on the tank the Ph is between 6.8-7.0, Nitrates steady at 20, Nitrites at 0, GH 25, and KH 150.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'd recommend doing this:

Take out some water and let it degas for 24-48 hours. Measure it's pH. Set your controller to target about 0.8 to 1.0 pH units below this. Make sure you make changes slowly and watch the fish carefully as you do this. Maybe shoot for a 0.1 pH drop per day. With a controller this is easy. I'd set the alarms for maybe 0.2 units below your low setpoint and maybe 0.4 units above your high setpoint. Just me though. You'll have to figure out how sensitive your particular tank is to swings. You don't want false alarms going off all the time.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

guaiac_boy said:


> I'd recommend doing this:
> 
> Take out some water and let it degas for 24-48 hours. Measure it's pH. Set your controller to target about 0.8 to 1.0 pH units below this. Make sure you make changes slowly and watch the fish carefully as you do this. Maybe shoot for a 0.1 pH drop per day. With a controller this is easy. I'd set the alarms for maybe 0.2 units below your low setpoint and maybe 0.4 units above your high setpoint. Just me though. You'll have to figure out how sensitive your particular tank is to swings. You don't want false alarms going off all the time.


Ok I wasn't aware that the controller had two set points. I have the 4.01 & 7.01 pH solutions to calibrate the probe and the slope. On the front their is the pH set dial (black knob) that you set for the alarm. Am I understanding this correctly? How do you set two setpoints?


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

It depends on what controller you have. Some let you specify a low and a high point and others just have a single setpoint with a built-in allowable range (you don't want the solenoid opening & closing 100 times an hour). I'm not sure if the alarm you're referring to is a separate alarm, or simply the single setpoint.

All of the above is separate from the calibration controls. Usually there are two adjustments for this. One is the pH 7.0 setpoint and the other is the ramp, used to adjust to 4.0 or 11.0.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

I have the Milwaukee SMS 122 Controller. The Calibration controls are as you stated above. In the installation procedure it says that the output power socket works as a normally open switch. When alarm is active (Meas>Setpoint) the switch is closed. That's the setpoint I was asking about. Would it be good to set it at 6.5 pH then crank-up the bubble counter on the CO2. Would that be alright for the fish and keep the pH from crashing by going to low? Sorry for so many questions I just don't want to goof this up.


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK, they're calling the control output an "alarm". Some controllers have a separate alarm that goes off if the control parameters are exceeded. 

I'd make sure that your bubble rate is high enough to drop the pH , but not so high that everything will be nuked if the controller gets stuck in the open position (this can happen). This will give you a chance to get it back under control without killing everything and it will also cause the controller to cycle less frequently. Absolutely do not forget to change your pH probe on a regular basis - maybe every 6 or 12 months. Check the calibration frequently too. If you do this, a controller is probably pretty safe.

I'd start out at a safe pH and gradually work it down by 0.1 pH units per day until you get where you want it to be.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Well I calibrated my controller and have it all set-up. My reading is 6.4pH, can I safely take it any lower or am I getting enough CO2 in the tank at this point?


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The exact number doesn't really mean much. How do the fish look? Have you tried setting some of your water out for 24 hours? Do this and measure its pH. Then, shoot for about 0.8 to 1.0 pH units below this.

Is your KH really 150 ppm? This would equal about 8 degrees. This seems high if your GH is only 25 ppm (1.5 degrees). Do you add anything like a pH adjuster or a buffer to your tank? If you do it will greatly influence your readings.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

The fish look fine. I'll set a sample of water out for 24hrs and see what the pH is. No I don't add anything to my water except for my fertilizer routine. We are on two artesian wells that feed from two different aquifers. It is a private run system that feeds 35 houses. Nothing is added to the water as I am on the board that runs it.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Well after setting the water out for 24 hrs. and testing it. The results are as follows: pH 7.4
KH 7deg
PO3 5ppm 

The Ph on the tank is measuring 6.4 and the fish look like they are doing fine, should I continue to increase my CO2?


----------



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Nah, you're probably about perfect. You might be able to go up a little more, but you probably have a true 30 ppm level right now. BTW, the "chart" shows you at roughly 80 ppm. Bottom line - don't believe the chart.

I don't know if time & experience will bear out the logic in my suggestion, but using the pH drop compared to a degassed sample certainly removes many of the variables that can impact the traditional CO2/KH/pH chart.

If you want to explore the limit, keep dropping pH by 0.1 increments. When the fish don't look happy back it off maybe 0.2 units. I think consistency at 6.4 will give you a nice long-term result.

Other long-term solutions for getting rid of algae: keep removing newly affected areas (eventually this will no longer be necessary), get some algae eating fish (for me otos and SAE's are a great team), keep your ferts and light consistent. Listen to the plants grow and watch the algae die a slow painful death. Patience, patience, patience. It can take a couple months to get the stars all in alignment.


----------



## mustang1 (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

guaiac_boy said:


> The exact number doesn't really mean much. How do the fish look? Have you tried setting some of your water out for 24 hours? Do this and measure its pH. Then, shoot for about 0.8 to 1.0 pH units below this.
> 
> Is your KH really 150 ppm? This would equal about 8 degrees. This seems high if your GH is only 25 ppm (1.5 degrees). Do you add anything like a pH adjuster or a buffer to your tank? If you do it will greatly influence your readings.


High KH, low GH.. sounds like it could be water that's gone through a home softening unit to me.


----------

