# Algae - help!



## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

Hi all - 

This is the first time I've actually visited a chat room, first on-line post. 

I've kept fish for many years, most of that time with live plants. Now I'm finally getting serious about the plants and algae wasn't the plant I had in mind. 

I do a 10% water change weekly, have the tank pretty lightly populated with fish and have made sure no sunlight hits the tank. Algae is coating the leaves on my sword plants and starting to go after the java fern. 

Any ideas?


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## Rob G (Oct 19, 2004)

Please read this sticky and fill it out as completely as you can. This will help one in identifying the causes related to your algae experience.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Welcome to APC. 
Wow, for your very first post on a board like this, it was very well constructed.  

There is an algae section here that might help give you some answers to your question.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Dmills, welcome to APC  ... The first thing I would do is increase water changes to 25% weekly.


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## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

*Newbie fighting algae*

Thanks all for your responses, sorry for delay in getting back to the discussion. I've got an awful lot of irons in the fire right now, so please excuse the delay.

I use RO water buffered with a nutrient package. Honestly, in my inexperience, I haven't tested it, but will now.

I'll collect the parameters and get back with you.

In meanwhile, I've been reading threads about the PPS and would like to adopt this method. I've found the KNO3 and the K2SO4, but haven't found a source for the KH2PO4. Do I have to buy this from a chemical supply outfit, or is there some commonly available material that is really KH2PO4 by some other name?

Thanks for the advise and taking the time to reply. 
Dan.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

In the US I think Fleet Enema is basically KH2PO4.

Or you can get it from Greg Watson at www.gregwatson.com.


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## benigne (Apr 11, 2005)

How do your algae look like (colour, aspect : like hair or more like a layer) ?

PS : what does "sword" plant mean ? (sorry, english isn't my mother tongue, and I haven't found this expression in the dictionnary)


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Swords are of the Echinodorus family. bleheri is a pretty common one for example.


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## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks for the "enema" tip. Took me a minute to understand it, I thought it was a joke at first! 

My algae runs the spectrum: I've got furry, brush like clumps on the back glass that I scrape off from time to time, but the main problem is the film-like stuff that coats the leaves of my crypts and the sword plants. 

Sorry that I haven't learned the correct names of the plants and algae - my newbie nature showing through.


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## benigne (Apr 11, 2005)

thank you Laith for the explanation

DMills, are the algae on your back glass of the same kind than the ones or the leaves or are they of two different types ?
are they very gripped to the plants or glass or can you put them off (?) easily enough ?

do they look like this one : http://vveronique.free.fr/images/algue noire2.jpg
or more like this one (at the bottom on the plant on the left) : http://www.aquabase.org/member/album/pictures/3C3D0424495A1E5E1A6B0B812D52264A_full.jpg ?


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## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

The algae on the back glass look like the algae in the vveronique link. What is on the plants doesn't look like either link. It is more of a film, most of which can be peeled off on one piece, but cleaning each leaf is more commitment than I can give.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Sounds like Blue Green Algae (BGA) which is a cyanobacteria... this is the stuff that can be "peeled off in one piece".

As most algae are the result of some type of imbalance in the tank, you will probably be able to get more useful inputs if you give us more details on your setup. Rob G's suggestion would be useful to follow...


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## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

Here are some of my parameters?

RO water for top-off, treated with a salt mixture that came with the RO unit

pH 7.5
NO3 <5
PO4 0.2 ppm
GH 5 dH (with a different test kit, got 75 ppm)
KH 2 dH (with different test kit, got 180 ppm)

In the tank
pH 8.5
NO# <5 mg/L
PO4 0.3 - 0.5
GH 6 dH
KH 3 dH
NH3 0

I've been dosing with the phosphate free solution for a week, 5 ml/day and now the algae has gotten worse! Will be doing a water change tonight and will re-test the parameters. 

Any help you all can offer this newbie will be appreciated. D.


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## Simpte 27 (Jul 16, 2004)

How much light is over the tank? Are you adding CO2 to it?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I see that your N03 & P04 are out of balance, you need to keep a 23 to 1 ratio of N03 to P04, so if you are keeping N03 at 10ppm the P04 needs to be at 0.4.

_What ferts are you dosing, how much, how often?_


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I always seem to disagree with Trena on the ratios  

I don't think you need to worry to much about ratios other than the fact it gives you some numbers to shoot for. I have been slowly dropping my KNO3 levels to below 10ppm and keep the PO4 at 2+ppm. I have little to no algae and haven't had green spot algae on my glass or anubias leaves since December!

The important thing is to make sure your plants do not run out of anything they need, CO2, NO3, PO4, K or traces. Keep the plants happy and you keep the algae away.


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## aqua mon! (Apr 22, 2005)

*your algae problem*

there are good algae and bad algae....so check that out...
if you have fish, you may be over-feeding and have too much waste...
lastly, with lighting, it may more likely be too much or not enough light (total time lights are on)...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

With those pH's ....he's not adding CO2.
Nor should he be doing the dosing like this.
Sounds like BBA and BGA and likely some green algae mixed in. 

PPS nor EI etc is going to solve this issue for Dmills.
If DMills adds CO2, then yes, some elbow grease and he can get it back on track.

But without the CO2 you are not going to address this problem through the nutrient routine otherwise. 

DMills, what is your goal for the tank?
Is CO2 an option you have considered?
If not, I'll suggest a method to deal with the growth of the tank and the algae you now have.

And the N P ratios are more likely better at 10:1 to 7:1 for submersed aquatic plants, not 23:1, even algae prefer more P than that.
If you want ref's I got them. But they ratios in and of themselves does not matter.

The NO3 is too low also. Few kits are that accurate at 5ppm or less.
Having the NO3 that low does not gain you anything in particular regarding plant growth, but it can do a good deal of harm should the NO3 bottom out which has occured, BGA is a good sign of that.


Regards, 
Tom Barr

wwwBarrReport.com


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

MatPat... I agree with you that it only gives you a number to shoot for, I only give it out as a guide line to the people whom are still learning. I myself do not really worry about what ratio my nutrients are at but I rather go by what the plants and the tank as a whole look like.

There is so much disagreement at what to keep your ratios at that I'm unsure myself anymore. I've been told or read a 10 to 1 ratio of N03 to P04 and other say NO it is a 10 to 1 ratio of N to P not N03 to P04, so go figure. Since I've been in the hobby for a few years now I've stopped relaying on ratios. But I still think someone that is new to the hobby should keep a close eye on the nutrient levels until they are comfortable with plant keeping.

Plantbrain... Here is where I got the 23 to 1 ratio at: http://www.aquariaplants.com/nutrientsfertilizers.htm
This guy was a member of one of the other forums I use to frequent and gives very good reliable information, he has helped me through algae problems that I had as a newbie.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

trenac said:


> Plantbrain... Here is where I got the 23 to 1 ratio at: http://www.aquariaplants.com/nutrientsfertilizers.htm
> This guy was a member of one of the other forums I use to frequent and gives very good reliable information, he has helped me through algae problems that I had as a newbie.


Those ratios are way off as far what a plant or an algae needs in terms of N ratio. 10:1 is what most general wetland plants possess in terms of dry weight and many submersed are in the 7:1 range. Even Redfield's old phytoplankton ratio is 16:1. FW algae are around 14:1.
These are from scientific references, a lot of them. What's this guy got? 
This guy got a lot of information from my post it looks like. But not that ratio, ask them where that one came from.

Either way, adding PO4 above 23:1 or 10 :1 is not going to cause algae.
Anyone can test that easy enough new or experienced.

Back to the problem here:
As I've said, Dmills issue is CO2.

A ratio is not going to help Dmills with that and they will continue to have algae till that is addresed.

regards, 
Tom Barr


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> These are from scientific references, a lot of them. What's this guy got?


 :-s



plantbrain said:


> This guy got a lot of information from my post it looks like. But not that ratio, ask them where that one came from.


 So you are saying Steve got all his info from you, but just threw in the 23:1 ratio for the heck of it?... I will ask him!


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

trenac said:


> :-s
> 
> So you are saying Steve got all his info from you, but just threw in the 23:1 ratio for the heck of it?... I will ask him!


Naw, just asking where that ratio has come from.
I've never heard it, I obviously deal with algae and weeds day to day and have close to a decade. If I missed something, I'd like to know about it. All the info did not come from me, it came from sfbaaps, Paul, Karen, Roger and dozens of other folks. I was a bone head long ago, still am I guess

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks to everybody for offering some ideas. 

First some answers: lights - 2W/gallon on 11 hr/day. Fish load: 6 rummy nose tetras, four lemon tetras and two clown loaches (who did their job cleaning up a snail problem). I don't think the fish are being over-fed.

I haven't resorted to CO2 - already spent a minor fortune on test kits! I've been reading a lot of the posts about PPS (haven't found the EI thing yet, whatever that is) and thought that once the ferts were in order, algae would be gone. 

I dosed the first week with 1/2 oz daily of the phosphate free solution from the PPS. This did a great job of forcing an algae bloom. Wow! I've never seen red algae before, also a good crop of green algae and a little bit of blue-green. When you've got all three growing on the glass, it's easy to tell what's what! 

Then the second week, I switched to 1/2 oz daily of the SS from PPS, combined with 1/2 oz of CSM+B obtained from Greg Watson (whose service was excellent shipped and delivered in just a few days). I will likely be doing a 10% water change this week and measure all of the nutrient levels again, will report back. Just not enough hours in a week to play with the tank.

Answer to Tom - Goal for the tank - My kids call my tank "fish-o-vision" because it sits where a normal person would have a TV. I want a tank with a nice display without a huge amount of maintenance. Am I dreaming?

Please, if someone would help a newbie and give me an idea of target levels of the various nutrients as a starting point. I haven't located this information just yet. 

If CO2 is the only way, can someone recommend a supplier? I want to just go for the pressurized CO2 and a timed regulator.


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## DMills (Mar 2, 2005)

Some more parameters.....tested yesterday.
pH 7.6, NO3 20-50 ppm; PO4 1 - 2 ppm; GH 8; KH 5

Fish are still quite happy, even though their world is closing in with algae - red, green, and a little blue green. 

Plants (other than algae) are not growing well.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

The non CO2 method does not need to dose all these nutrients(PPS/EI/PMDD etc). These are suited for CO2 enrichment methods, you are not doing this, so don't add KNO3/KH2PO4 etc. 

Stop doing that now.
Do a large water change to lower the nutrients down(50-70%).
Prune off algae, and remove as much as you can.
Most of the plants might need tossed, don't save algae covered stumps, they will not do you any good and simply be a reinfestation.

Buy some cheap plants, and pack the tank full.

Next, stop doing water changes.
Consider adding Excel from Seachem. 
Lights on for 10 hours.

Add some Amano shrimps(1 per gal or two of tank) and SAE's for algae control. 

How big is your tank?

I'll suggest a dosing routine based on your tank volume and whether you use CO2, Excel or non CO2 methods.

You need to decide which of these you want to do. 

You are not dreaming but the approaches are seemingly different, but based on growth rate.

You don't need to dose much for non CO2. Fish waste typically takes care of many plant species' nutrient needs. Non CO2 works for the same reason's but you likely do not have enough plant biomass that's healthy to start off with for that light level. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## benigne (Apr 11, 2005)

> two clown loaches (who did their job cleaning up a snail problem). I don't think the fish are being over-fed.


DMills, your first sentence makes me wonder : 
a snail problem already shows a bad balance in the tank
by the way, a common opinion on french forums is you don't treat a snail problem with clown loaches; moreover, clown loaches (botia macracantha) grow too big for much tanks&#8230; but that's another problem; I don't know what people here think about it ? 
we usually recommend to search why your snails develop so much : the usual reasons are a lot of algae to eat for them, or food waste (or the two reasons, that are often present at the same time; by the way I think I should look at this in my own tank&#8230; :???: )

so I think withdrawing the snails has probably worsen your algae problem, because they don't eat them any more (but not for the black algae, usual snails don't eat it)
on the other hand, you can add some snails and shrimps to help you with the algae, they work well

but I think usually, even when you've got algae, too numerous snails often reveals food waste :
in a well-balanced tank, your snails develop a little at first, then come to a certain number and don't vary much after that
withdrawing the snails to solve this problem is only a symptomatic treatment but doesn't resolve the cause of their proliferation

for the rest of the things said, I'm sorry I don't know anything about ratios of P and N, I don't really want to become a chemist and I try to keep the tank as natural as possible (but that's only my own opinion, I think specialists of these questions seem to manage very well with all this ;-) )

on the other hand, I wonder because you haven't got much NO3
I don't know how one can have enough pollution to have a snail proliferation, and algae, but not much NO3; I had and have again the same kind of trouble : algae coming at the same time that low NO3 (but no snail proliferation), and I still haven't found the solution


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