# Want to convert 260 Litre to Walstad. Help please :)



## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Hello everyone, i am wanting to convert to the Walstad method any help would be much appreciated. Please ignore my bad sentence structuring, I'm okay at grammar but no so much presentation of sentences :-s

I have a Juwel Vison 260 Litre aquarium with approximately 65 fish (48 Wild Cardinals,10 rummy nose tetras, 6 Corydoras. and a couple black neon tetras that i found impossible to catch as i gave majority of them to my father. I use Argos Play Sand for my substrate, i heard you can use a thin layer ontop of soil. This is something that is a must for me due to my Corydoras and their delicate mouth barbels.

I purchased Verve John Innes No3 (http://www.diy.com/nav/garden/garde...No3-Mature-Plants-20L-11907565?skuId=12418271) Got 2 bags (40L) so should be plenty.

I have softwater for my fish, 2DGH, 2KH, 6.5PH (using pressurized co2) and 200TDS. I remineralise using Seachem products. I have a 7 stage RO so can achieve 0TDS which is what i use for my water changes.

My aquarium is heavly planted and well established. Algae is driving me insane and ferts just aren't working for me. I want to convert to the walstad method, I done a fair bit of research and know some of the basics, but what i can't seem to find is water parameters for the walstad. All i can see is that 7DGH+ is reccomended. Nothing on KH,PH. I heard KH is bad for soft water fish and is only in traces in their habitat, so could i in theory not add any buffer or low KH and just a high DGH?, I have a 180 water butt i use to fill up before my weekly wc, and a 80 litre dustbin i use for remineralising and heating etc before adding to aquarium.

I could use my dustbin and my external to house the fish while i strip the aquarium down give it a good clean and dirt the aquarium.So the fish can be out of the picture for aslong as needed really,although not the ideal home for them it will serve them well for a day or so while i sort aquarium out.

Thanks in advance.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Not to deter a smart decision (walstad), but if you're pH is at 6.5 and your dkH is only at 2, then you are only likely running your CO2 at only 19ppm or possibly less.

You could probably do to slowly raise your dkH to about 3-4 and put in a little more CO2 to keep your pH where its at. It's possible you're bottoming out of CO2 if you're heavily planted.

Another option is to put in a few hours of siesta time in the middle. Cut your light cycle in half and run it twice with a 2-4 hour break. This will allow the CO2 level to rebuild.

In any case, look into mineralizing the soil. Most commercial products have various manures and chicken droppings to boost their nutrient levels.

Also, kH or gH for that matter isn't necessarily bad for softwater fish. They can typically acclimate to a wider range. The key is keeping it consistent. Breeding is when you typically need to worry about these things. Some fish have their spawning triggered by various changes in water parameter (ph, temp, nitrates, etc). Since you won't be breeding in this tank, it's not really important to have a certain number. I'd focus on the plants instead.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC!

The reason you don't hear much about KH and pH in the Walstad method is that they typically do not matter too much unless the values are far outside the normal range. Some KH is desirable because it buffers pH and reduces any quick changes.

John Innes is not available in the states, so we don't have much information about its use in Walstad tanks. The description says it has peat in it, which will lower pH and reduce GH to some degree. It also "feeds for 7 weeks". This suggests to me that like many potting soils for terrestrial plants, it is too rich for aquarium use straight out of the bag. Since you will be putting fish back in the tank quickly after the change, you do not want any ammonia spikes. Therefore I recommend that you soak and drain the soil at least three times, or mineralize it. Fortunately these can be done before you tear down the tank, and the soil will be safe and ready when you do. You can read about both in the "suitable soils" sticky in this forum, or in the "mineralized top soil" sticky in the Library forum.

Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out. Several of our UK members have asked about John Innes #3, and I would love to have more information.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Tugg is so quick!


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

You might be able to mix your regular tap water with the ro to get a nice balance of kh if your tap is extremely hard. 

good luck


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Further comment on JI No. 3: this site http://www.johninnes.info/about.htm says that No. 3 is the richest of the mixes. You definitely want to soak and drain or mineralize it first.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Tugg said:


> Not to deter a smart decision (walstad), but if you're pH is at 6.5 and your dkH is only at 2, then you are only likely running your CO2 at only 19ppm or possibly less.
> 
> You could probably do to slowly raise your dkH to about 3-4 and put in a little more CO2 to keep your pH where its at. It's possible you're bottoming out of CO2 if you're heavily planted.
> 
> ...


Yes i am only using low amount of co2 purely for the PH benefits.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Michael said:


> Welcome to APC!
> 
> The reason you don't hear much about KH and pH in the Walstad method is that they typically do not matter too much unless the values are far outside the normal range. Some KH is desirable because it buffers pH and reduces any quick changes.
> 
> ...


Thanks .

John Innes No3 is recommended by Diana Walstad herself, so i am not sure if it would have to be diluted. Problem is it doesn't have any information on the packaging as to what it contains nor does it on the website.

What kind of DGH should i be aiming for? because i can remineralise to any required parameter.

Should i be using pressurized co2 at all? i'd rather not but if it can be beneficial i will go for it.

So does the soil bacteria feed of KH? if not i can still achieve low PH which would be great!

How much sand should i layer ontop of soil?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I'm no expert, but I believe dGH is the combination of Ca and Mg (calcium and magnesium) and you want a certain amount of Kh, 4 or above, to prevent ph from swinging high or low. Some soils have an appropriate kh due to addition of limestone or dolomitic lime around here, others are pure organics (peat moss, forest by products, animal poo, etc). Most people use tap water in walstad method unless there is something really wrong with there water. If you want to use ro I would make Kh 4 or 5 and Gh a little above that if your plants need extra mg in the water column. 

You shouldn't need co2 if your light isn't insanely strong or turned on more than 10 hours a day.

Any of the experts can feel free to chime in and correct anything I have said since I am still learning about this stuff myself. 

Also, You shouldn't make soil too deep or it gets anaerobic and smells awful and kills plants and fish with the various gasses that get created. I did no more than an inch of soil in mine and an inch or two of cap. You might be able to get a way with half inch of cap, guess it all depends on how much the soil wants to float up. I think 2-3 inches of substrate (soil and cap included) should be fine.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> I'm no expert, but I believe dGH is the combination of Ca and Mg (calcium and magnesium) and you want a certain amount of Kh, 4 or above, to prevent ph from swinging high or low. Some soils have an appropriate kh due to addition of limestone or dolomitic lime around here, others are pure organics (peat moss, forest by products, animal poo, etc). Most people use tap water in walstad method unless there is something really wrong with there water. If you want to use ro I would make Kh 4 or 5 and Gh a little above that if your plants need extra mg in the water column.
> 
> You shouldn't need co2 if your light isn't insanely strong or turned on more than 10 hours a day.
> 
> ...


Well I've had 1KH and no PH swings so 4 seems a little extravagant, will my Wild Cardinals be compatible with a GH that high?


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't see why they wouldn't be fine with a Kh and Gh of about 4. This site where other people on here have had good experience shows some parameters for cardinals. http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=747+870+895&pcatid=895

I'm sure other people have kept those kinds of fish and could tell you more. I am waiting for a live bearer tank to cycle before adding fish which like harder waters so I wouldn't know for sure about the soft water fishies, but, in general, if your ph is 6.5-7 it should be fine. The little bit of calcium carbonate (Kh value) helps keep things stable in a walstad tank like it would help buffer natural acids being produced by fallen leaves, decaying animals, downed trees, various kinds of mosses, etc in a river or lake.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

John Innes no3 is commonly used in aquaria here, it has 25% peat but also contains lime so it will raise your gH levels. I have a JI I a tank I literally set up last night and use Westland Aquatic Compost in my other tank, which will raise gH but not so much. 

I think it will be fine for your needs, you may want to add leaves or alder cones to a portion of your tank. Or perhaps run peat moss in the filter? 

What is your tap kH and gH?

The Walstad method does not use pressurised co2.

What plants will you be growing. 

From memory most peeps run that tank using a single light tube and take the other out for low tech.

For the first month, your test kit is your friend for the wakstad set up, after that give up your obsession with testing and get obsessed about observing!


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

nickmcmechan said:


> John Innes no3 is commonly used in aquaria here, it has 25% peat but also contains lime so it will raise your gH levels. I have a JI I a tank I literally set up last night and use Westland Aquatic Compost in my other tank, which will raise gH but not so much.
> 
> I think it will be fine for your needs, you may want to add leaves or alder cones to a portion of your tank. Or perhaps run peat moss in the filter?
> 
> ...


So would i need to dilute the soil i purchased?. My tap water is very hard last time i checked, around 19DGH and 5KH not to mention a lot of nitrates above 40PPM. I'd much rather remineralise using my pure water then use tap water with all the chemicals such as fluoride ( i don't even drink tap water personally). 
My fish are use to the very soft water so that's why i'm a little worried about how they're going to react to the new setup.

My internal Juwel filter is fully cycled as is my Eheim external. Should i completely strip the Juwel and use it as harbour for decay plant matter using 1 sponge to catch decaying plants and use it as humid acid circulation pump ?

The whole point of this is to let the Plants & the soil do the job of purifying water right and make a equilibrium within the aquarium, so could someone clarify if i need to keep my friendly bacteria?

To get a 7PH and a high DGH/KH isn't possible unless i used co2 which then kinda makes it high tech and takes away the point of the Walstad method imo and is just another factor that could cause issues. I could aim for 2KH and a base PH given i've got peat in the soil also. (i've found my rummy nose prefer a higher PH)

So i need to know if i need to dilute the soil (i read somewhere for 2 weeks the soil needs to be soaked?) and if the tank will be inhabitable in the first or second day? i have a lot of fish so i am a little worried (especially as it's my first time trying this method)

Thanks for all the replies.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

The ammonia in the soil will probably spike quite a bit which is why you soak it and let it dry and soak again and let it dry, effectively breaking everything down into minerals and getting rid of some of the ammonia. You can put some soil in a non reactive container, like a glass jar or plastic, fill it with whatever mix of water you plan on using let it sit over night and test it for gh, kh, ph, and ammonia. The cycled filter will help start the nitrogen cycling in the tank, and with all the ammonia in the soil you will want all that good bacteria for a while. You might be able to get rid of the bio media completely later when the nitrifying bacteria grow in the substrate, glass, etc. You still want a little surface water movement, but no waterfalls or anything that will degass the co2. (I had to fill my tank u to the bottom of my hob filter to keep my co2 levels up because my ph was rising to 8 from lack of co2 (with the water level raised so there was no more water falls ph stayed around 7.5 and my kh is 6, gh goes up to 8-10 but doesnt seem to change ph at all)

Fluoride doesn't usually hurt fish in the amounts that are in city water, if you have well water your levels might be different. You could mix small batches of ro water with tap water and test each to get the kh up a bit.

Water changes are your friend and help dilute all the ammonia and all (think of when you cycled the tank the first tine) The plants will help a lot with it though.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I had another thought that might make things easier..might not. I remembered rading a thread about slowly converting a bare gravel substrate to walstad tank by adding balls of soil that had been frozen to the tank under the gravel. Basically shoving frozen balls of your chosen soil under the gravel like you would a root tab. The freezing keeps it from falling apart and you would only do a few at a time so it should drop the temp of the tank any. You could keep the water as is for now and shove some dirt in there under the plant roots every few days if you have the time to do that and keep an eye on the ammonia and all to make sure nothing gets out of hand. Ideally you would want a nice even cover of soil under the cap which is easiest to do by completely tearing the tank down and redoing, but since it sounds like you don't have a quarantine tank or something you can house fish in for a few weeks or more for parameters to stabilize, shoving the dirt under the sand, stepping co2 down slowly, and doing water changes might work if done over time for the fishies to adjust slowly.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

A quicker way to mineralise the soil is to bake it in the oven at 180c (no more) for 2 hours

Put an inch of soil down, cap it with an inch of sand

Plant heavily, very heavily, ensuring you have a mix of floating plants, stems and root feeders. Don't be shy with plants.

As you are remneralising RO (your water is indeed liquid rock!) go for about 4dkh to buffer and 4gh. The fish will be fine. Unless you are planning to breed the cardinals don't sweat the hardness too much, but I would add something like peat in the filter or alder cones

Fill tank with water, use your existing filter media. You will need to try and keep the bacteria alive during the changeover

Test for ammonia and nitrite daily first week or so, any hint then big water changes


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> The ammonia in the soil will probably spike quite a bit which is why you soak it and let it dry and soak again and let it dry, effectively breaking everything down into minerals and getting rid of some of the ammonia. You can put some soil in a non reactive container, like a glass jar or plastic, fill it with whatever mix of water you plan on using let it sit over night and test it for gh, kh, ph, and ammonia. The cycled filter will help start the nitrogen cycling in the tank, and with all the ammonia in the soil you will want all that good bacteria for a while. You might be able to get rid of the bio media completely later when the nitrifying bacteria grow in the substrate, glass, etc. You still want a little surface water movement, but no waterfalls or anything that will degass the co2. (I had to fill my tank u to the bottom of my hob filter to keep my co2 levels up because my ph was rising to 8 from lack of co2 (with the water level raised so there was no more water falls ph stayed around 7.5 and my kh is 6, gh goes up to 8-10 but doesnt seem to change ph at all)
> 
> Fluoride doesn't usually hurt fish in the amounts that are in city water, if you have well water your levels might be different. You could mix small batches of ro water with tap water and test each to get the kh up a bit.
> 
> Water changes are your friend and help dilute all the ammonia and all (think of when you cycled the tank the first tine) The plants will help a lot with it though.


Problem is with that is if i use the Internal as filtration the mass amount of bacteria in there will deal with all the ammonia nitrite and nitrate leaving no room for fresh bacteria to grow. I want to do a complete teardown because i have 3D background and its FULL of algea and will take a long time to clean and just isn't worth doing it with fish in there. Plus the sand layer is too high and has previously become rotted before.

So here's my game plan.

1. Rinse soil 3 times.
2. Test soil after 3 rinses with same water as i would be using for aquarium to see effects on water.
3.Transport fish & plants into container with fully cycled external.
4.Clean aquarium dirt and fill.
5.Put plants back into aquarium to help with any ammonia/nitirite/nitrate released from soil.
6.Wait until it is stable enough to put fish back.

I don't want to use my filter to hold mass bacteria the whole point is for the plants to use ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for photosynthesis, correct me if i'm wrong.

My aquarium is like a overrun jungle of plants so there should be plenty for the waste.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> Problem is with that is if i use the Internal as filtration the mass amount of bacteria in there will deal with all the ammonia nitrite and nitrate leaving no room for fresh bacteria to grow. I want to do a complete teardown because i have 3D background and its FULL of algea and will take a long time to clean and just isn't worth doing it with fish in there. Plus the sand layer is too high and has previously become rotted before.
> 
> So here's my game plan.
> 
> ...


Baking the soil will be easier. How do you plan to test it?

You should be ok to put the fish back in after set up, there is always the possibility of ammonia or nitrite spikes, but that could happen anyway, observe and test closely first couple of weeks. There is always risk when you breakdown and rebuild a tank


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

I have never heard of baking the soil, except maybe to speed the drying cycle. 

The bacteria will grow on everything because they naturally do that anyway. yes the plants help filter out ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, the efficiency of using each kind of nitrogen I am not sure of though. If you are worried about the filter using all of the nitrogen and not leaving any for the plants you don't have to use it. I have heard some people squeezing the bio sponge or rinsing the media in the new aquarium water to seed the bacteria to help speed the natural growth of the bacteria that would come from air, soil, etc. You would probably do a couple tests on the water, one right after or a little while after mixing with the soil and another the day to a few days after so that you can see if the kh in the soil gets disolved or not leading to increase in ph and in the water column to see if your current mix of water will work. I bought a bag of soil and it tested neutral, ph7, initially and rose to 8 in a few days (without water agitation so it was full of co2) so I ended up doing a %30 water change with straight ro water and it has been stable for a few days. The soil I used was full of peat too with a small amount of "regional" soil and/or forest byproducts. On the other hand your soil could be more stable than mine, most people on here don't seem to have the problems I have lol.  good luck!


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

Must mention that baking the soil is best done at a time when the OH is out and windows are wide open.....


I lined my baking trays with foil, put soil in, made sure it was damp enough and then covered with foil. 180C for two hours (myst stress to keep to 180C)

I don't thin you need to mineralise soil (it will happen in the tank anyway), but in the case of the op where you want to get the live stock back in ASAP then it speeds things up.

I did it with the tank I set up this week as I've capped the soil with ADA Amazonia, so I didn't want too much ammonium leaching as ADA leaches it to start with too (growing dwarf hairgrass so wanted it to have nutrition available to the short roots straight away, I guess I could have used sand plus root tabs just under the surface, much like Diana did to grow HC emersed in low tech)


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

I have rinsed it 3 times with Pure RO and it's still black water. i will just let it sit for now until i know what to do next. I'm scared if i keep rinsing i will dilute the nutrients.

Most people don't even rinse so i assume 3 rinses is adequate. I am going to drain the current tank water into my 180 litre water butt and fill it around 3/4, then put the plants and fish in.

Give the aquarium a good clean empty and rinse the sand for use later.

Dirt the tank and later it with Sand. 

Use long RO tubing to put the Revere Osmosis output straight into the aquarium and let it fill up with pure 0TDS water.

Once full i can then mineralise to 4GH and 4KH.

Once it has settled i will put plants back to further clean the water of any nasties

When it is stable enough transfer fish back.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

The soil will always be a black, that is why you have the sand cap to trap all the black floaty stuff that stays suspended and turns water to muck. I found it easier to fill everything dry. As in, put soil, plants, and cap then I slowly poured water over a log so it wouldn't move the cap. Your ro tubing idea sounds perfect. I know various plants need potassium (k) and I am not sure if your remineralizing salts have potassium. Usually a little bit is added to give a plants a quick start as they are putting down roots into the substrate. If your plants start getting tiny holes in there leaves you might need some potassium which can be easily obtained with potassium chloride sold as a salt substitute for people on low sodium diets and if anything else looks odd find Zappins in the plant deficency forum, but since it is nutrient rich soil and a slightly acid to neutral ph you should be fine.

Good luck and post pictures when it is all set up or whenever you can!


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> I have rinsed it 3 times with Pure RO and it's still black water. i will just let it sit for now until i know what to do next. I'm scared if i keep rinsing i will dilute the nutrients.
> 
> Most people don't even rinse so i assume 3 rinses is adequate. I am going to drain the current tank water into my 180 litre water butt and fill it around 3/4, then put the plants and fish in.
> 
> ...


The point of rinsing the soil is to aid mineralisation, not to clean it. Mineralising is about altering the chemistry so it is beneficial to the life in the aquarium and speeding up the process whereby the soil leaches ammonium. The reason I suggested baking rather than rinsing is that after 3 straight rinses your soil may not yet be mineralised, the process takes days. Baking for a couple of hours achieves the same result, but your house smells during the process.

Stick the soil in, cap it with sand and fill with water the level of the sand. Add your plants ensuring you use stems, root feeders and plenty of floaters. Then fill right up. As you'll be using a working filter re-stocking straight away should be ok, but test and observe plenty in the first couple of weeks


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> The soil will always be a black, that is why you have the sand cap to trap all the black floaty stuff that stays suspended and turns water to muck. I found it easier to fill everything dry. As in, put soil, plants, and cap then I slowly poured water over a log so it wouldn't move the cap. Your ro tubing idea sounds perfect. I know various plants need potassium (k) and I am not sure if your remineralizing salts have potassium. Usually a little bit is added to give a plants a quick start as they are putting down roots into the substrate. If your plants start getting tiny holes in there leaves you might need some potassium which can be easily obtained with potassium chloride sold as a salt substitute for people on low sodium diets and if anything else looks odd find Zappins in the plant deficency forum, but since it is nutrient rich soil and a slightly acid to neutral ph you should be fine.
> 
> Good luck and post pictures when it is all set up or whenever you can!


Yeah it only went really black upon disturbing the soil so should be fine if it carefully fill.
I have the whole range of Sachem ferts (including potassium) if i need to improvise.
Now i'm on the tedious part of catching around 65 small fish o.0

Will post pictures when i get the chance 

Thanks for help.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Good luck on catching them without frightening them to death, hopefully there a bit used to you poking and podding around them by now. Can't wait to see those pics!


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> Good luck on catching them without frightening them to death, hopefully there a bit used to you poking and podding around them by now. Can't wait to see those pics!


Here's the pics 
I done about a half inch of sand so hopefully it isn't too much and the soil doesn't go anaerobic.
BTW reason it's dirty on last pic is i squeeze bacteria onto it hoping it would sink into sand but then i remember it needs oxygen and heat, so it's probably dead by now.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> Here's the pics
> I done about a half inch of sand so hopefully it isn't too much and the soil doesn't go anaerobic.
> BTW reason it's dirty on last pic is i squeeze bacteria onto it hoping it would sink into sand but then i remember it needs oxygen and heat, so it's probably dead by now.


Good stuff, the bacteria will get in to the water column

Good luck


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## TankAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

I didn't read the beginning posts. I'm being lazy.

What kind of bacteria product did you get? If it's from a container that says it needs to be refrigerated, the bacteria is alive. Not having enough heat only prolongs its life. It doesn't kill it. In part, it slows the bacteria's metabolism. Which means it doesn't need as much food to survive. So your bacteria is probably doing fine.

If the container says it does not need refrigeration, but to keep it out of extreme temperatures, the bacteria is dormant. It is not dead, but it isn't alive in the sense that it is thriving. It can remain dormant for a very long time, waiting for the right conditions, like when you add water, and a source of ammonia.

If it was bacteria from a seeded aquarium, then although many bacteria will probably die, many more will go into the dormant state to await better conditions. That'll be when you add water, and a source of food for them.

So odds are that, unless you used something that actually kills bacteria, the bacteria you put in will be okay. And when you set up your aquarium, they will help in greatly reducing the time needed to stabilize the cycle again.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

TankAaron, I believe onza120 used bacteria from recycled filter media. And yes, the bacteria should be alive, as long as they don't go into extreme temps room temp won't hurt them.

The pictures look great! It is definitely coming along now.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

TankAaron said:


> I didn't read the beginning posts. I'm being lazy.
> 
> What kind of bacteria product did you get? If it's from a container that says it needs to be refrigerated, the bacteria is alive. Not having enough heat only prolongs its life. It doesn't kill it. In part, it slows the bacteria's metabolism. Which means it doesn't need as much food to survive. So your bacteria is probably doing fine.
> 
> ...


It's bacteria from my seeded internal, i also got a fully cycled external so if i need to add some more kick start bacteria i will. But i really wan't the plants to do the job themselves so they grow healthy.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> It's bacteria from my seeded internal, i also got a fully cycled external so if i need to add some more kick start bacteria i will. But i really wan't the plants to do the job themselves so they grow healthy.


The plants will support when they are established in your new set up.

It would be good to use your live external as well, firstly to safeguard your fish, later to provide flow


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Mmmmmm... Ok, first of all, a disclaimer... I'm not in the best position to be giving specific advice... Also I haven't strictly read through this entire thread...

With that said, here's my advice from my own personal experiences, both with soil-based tanks and the community as a whole...

Nearly everything we 'know' in this hobby is questionable... It's based off of experimental results with poor control measures and little attempt at replication or peer-review. The main point there is most of the 'knowledge' we work under basically fails criteria of scientific review... Regardless of who published it....

Further, most of the advice we perpetuate comes from a misunderstand of what 'competition' actually means when we discuss plants, algae, fish, etc as an ecological system... I would even strongly challenge some of Walstad's publishings as personal anecdotes, even though her book has largely inspired my own education... 

Of course, that's not to say we don't have brilliant and educated people in this community... I'm just saying I don't see us collectively working towards a unified answer.

With that said... Soil goes under the 'cap' layer... Beyond that, I encourage you to research what each part of the system contributes... Also, what actually happens in natural ecosystems?

The truth is, everyone likes something different, and that 'perfection' is achieved differently by everyone... 

The ideal level of CO2 has fluctuated as new technology and new findings have been brought to light. From what I've seen, there's no evidence that we have any idea what levels of CO2 we should actually be trying to maintain... We just know what kills our fish.

Sorry, this is terrible advice because it doesn't actually offer a solution... Read through Zapin's posts... Collectively, he does an outstanding job of explaining plant deficiencies and their symptoms... Beyond that I would be stretched to say that anybody here is qualified to help you based on pictures alone, even if their advice works....

Learn to read your plants. Learn to feel comfortable outside of the 'normal' boundaries. Most importantly, embrace the biodiversity that algae brings to your aquariums and strive to understand why it thrives.

I'm just sharing my philosophy... I think we're far from a point of being able to pinpoint answers, and largely we all need to become acquainted with failure as a possiblity...

However, I feel Walstad gives some solid guidelines which present a high probability for what most would consider 'success'.

Also, as a passing note... I think a lot of the advice about corydoras needing a soft substrate comes from people who aren't taking great care of their fish, and the corydoras tend to exhibit clear symptoms before other fish... Instead of accepting that their tank is having problems. they blame the substrate 'because the other fish are fine!'.

They appreciate it, of course... But I'd be hard-pressed to believe it dictates their quality of life to the extent we're told in this hobby...


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Skizhx said:


> Mmmmmm... Ok, first of all, a disclaimer... I'm not in the best position to be giving specific advice... Also I haven't strictly read through this entire thread...
> 
> With that said, here's my advice from my own personal experiences, both with soil-based tanks and the community as a whole...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the good words, I been just observing and trying not to panic at the first sight of ammonia readings etc and trying to let nature take its course.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Also sorry for not keeping update i've been really busy, but i have uploaded a video to YouTube of the first morning after Walstad setup


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

beautiful tank and awesome fishies. Your plants are huge!!! I think they will do a good job of cleaning the tank. congrats on getting it all set up.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> beautiful tank and awesome fishies. Your plants are huge!!! I think they will do a good job of cleaning the tank. congrats on getting it all set up.


Thank you very much, they was a lot bigger i had to trim some and throw a lot away had too many. They're looking good not so sure weather they are taking in Ammonia or not every morning i test with ammonia readings 1.0-2.0 on the API card. I dose with Seachem Prime every morning until the aquarium stabilises, i mean considering the fish that's not a crazy high reading so i think they are taking up some.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Hello, i'm getting lower ammonia levels now and higher nitrite, but green slime algae is driving me insane!

My plants aren't looking all that healthy and green algae is taking over, i've read it's something to do with high organic compounds which makes sense.

Fish all look fine and healthy and i'm still dosing Prime each morning.


Any advice on why the plants are showing deficiency? i took a lot out and trimmed them to make it more spacious as particles were settling on plants too much.

Really though i'd be without algae but it seems to never leave me.


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## JKUK (Feb 16, 2007)

Is your 260 the old T8 model or the newer T5? and are you using reflectors?


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> Any advice on why the plants are showing deficiency? i took a lot out and trimmed them to make it more spacious as particles were settling on plants too much.
> 
> Really though i'd be without algae but it seems to never leave me.


Why are particles settling on the plants? Is your mechanical filtration no good or the flow is not going round correctly to pick it up? This stuff blocks the plants from doing their job and their leaves should be particle free all the time, so should the tank be really. It's a prerequisite for algae. Is that coming from the soil or from something else? Also, levels of ammonia in a tank combined with light always causes algae, whether minimal or large levels as the ones you read.
Was the soil mineralised? Mine never spiked if mineralised.

And I'd honestly do daily water changes now if you've got ammonia and nitrites, as well as dose Prime. Prime won't remove anything, it just neutralises it temporarily but toxins will just build up to the point prime can't neutralise all.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

The nitrifying bacteria should start doing there job soon, but water changes are neccessay, especially since you have fishies in there. The algae should go away as the plants settle in and the bacteria grow. You said you think the plants are showing deficiency signs? I think you should post pics of them in the deficiency forum for Zappins to look at if you see any damage. Ammonia at too high levels can also damage leaves.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> Hello, i'm getting lower ammonia levels now and higher nitrite, but green slime algae is driving me insane!
> 
> My plants aren't looking all that healthy and green algae is taking over, i've read it's something to do with high organic compounds which makes sense.
> 
> ...


Nitrite would be a concern, big daily water changes needed in the short term

You need to increase your plant mass and increase flow. The slime algae is telling you all is not well. Are you using floating plants?


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

JKUK said:


> Is your 260 the old T8 model or the newer T5? and are you using reflectors?


Hello, it's the 260 with T5's. i have just gave the tank a clean and rinsed all the plants of particles and done a 15 litre water change using pure RO. i think it was the T5 Tube i had High-Lite day and "colour tube" which wasn't doing wonders.

I have fully cleaned all the reflectors and tubes and replaced the "colour" with a "Nature" tube which i had previously. Instantly the aquarium looked much more lit. I need to replace the Nature tube as it's quite old but it will do for now.

Doing mass daily water changes just isn't going to be something i can keep doing. I can fill up my 80 litre dustin and use that for a WC as my water butt is now used for rain water.

Will test tomorrow and post results and some pics, i'm pretty sure this different tube will sort things.


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## JKUK (Feb 16, 2007)

Hi,

In my experience the old T8 version is much more suitable for a Walstad aquarium, that said I have been able to get good results from the T5 version with a little extra care. Basically those T5's are too much for this.

I combat this with a few simple measures. 

Remove the reflectors.
Use old tubes, especially on new tanks. 
For the first few weeks 8 hours a day is plenty...slowly increase this to around 10-12 once the tank is settled.
Use masses of floating plants (cover 50% of surface for now) Salvinia, Frogbit, water lettuce, giant duckweed. These will also help reduce ammonia. And can be thinned out later, but always keep some.
Keep good flow at all times with reasonable surface movement.
Don't add any ferts at this time, you may never have too 
When you do feel you need to replace tubes only change one at a time. I normally change one a year at most. 

Hope this helps.

James


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

JKUK said:


> Hi,
> 
> In my experience the old T8 version is much more suitable for a Walstad aquarium, that said I have been able to get good results from the T5 version with a little extra care. Basically those T5's are too much for this.
> 
> ...


To me it feels like the tank isn't lit enough. And i have purchased some water lettuce so will pop that in once it arrives.The Nature tube is very old so that should help.


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## JKUK (Feb 16, 2007)

Walstad tanks have very different lighting needs, you would be amazed what you could grow with just one T8 on your 260.

I noticed on your video you have removed the media from the Juwel filter. Because you have sand there is nowhere for the mulm to settle, so you will need to put at least one coarse foam back to collect it.

Good luck with the floaters.

James


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

JKUK said:


> Walstad tanks have very different lighting needs, you would be amazed what you could grow with just one T8 on your 260.
> 
> I noticed on your video you have removed the media from the Juwel filter. Because you have sand there is nowhere for the mulm to settle, so you will need to put at least one coarse foam back to collect it.
> 
> ...


I have now filled the filter with all the media it came with because right now i feel i have to rely on the bacteria to remove nitrogen rather then plants 

I'm just worried about bacteria consuming too much KH thus making Walstad method pointless as i would need to keep replenishing the KH.

I will use my hands to remove as much algae as possible from plants daily to make sure they get the head start they need.

Got some pond plants from my Dad so that will help, hopefully they survive in aquarium. Either way water lettuce should be here soon.


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## JKUK (Feb 16, 2007)

onza120 said:


> I have now filled the filter with all the media it came with because right now i feel i have to rely on the bacteria to remove nitrogen rather then plants
> 
> I'm just worried about bacteria consuming too much KH thus making Walstad method pointless as i would need to keep replenishing the KH.
> 
> ...


I always start with a full filter, then just slowly remove them as the aquarium matures. That said don't use the carbon or nitrate sponge long term.
Generally I find just the one coarse foam is all I need in the end.

I don't think you will have much trouble with the KH, if anything the John Innes will push it up together with the pH. I have John Innes tanks which run at KH 8, pH 8.2, despite being filled with pure RO water. Even after 3-4 years they are still running on the alkaline side. If you think it's becoming an issue, simply top the tank up (or do a small water change)with tap water.

Yes keep removing any algae you can, and keep that light intensity down by shading things as much as possible. I hate to say it, but floaters, floaters and more floaters 

Pond plants like common Elodea should be very useful to you at the moment, basically try and grow as much of a jungle as you can for now. You can always refine things later once things have settled.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> I have now filled the filter with all the media it came with because right now i feel i have to rely on the bacteria to remove nitrogen rather then plants
> 
> I'm just worried about bacteria consuming too much KH thus making Walstad method pointless as i would need to keep replenishing the KH.
> 
> ...


This will not help you, unless you,wish to have more slime algae

Putting more media in will reduce flow and the slime algae will get worse. Use only sponge media


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

nickmcmechan said:


> This will not help you, unless you,wish to have more slime algae
> 
> Putting more media in will reduce flow and the slime algae will get worse. Use only sponge media


How would floating plants make slime algae worse?


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

JKUK said:


> I always start with a full filter, then just slowly remove them as the aquarium matures. That said don't use the carbon or nitrate sponge long term.
> Generally I find just the one coarse foam is all I need in the end.
> 
> I don't think you will have much trouble with the KH, if anything the John Innes will push it up together with the pH. I have John Innes tanks which run at KH 8, pH 8.2, despite being filled with pure RO water. Even after 3-4 years they are still running on the alkaline side. If you think it's becoming an issue, simply top the tank up (or do a small water change)with tap water.
> ...


That's good to hear 

Do you think rain water would be okay for top ups, maybe to counteract too much alkalinity?

I'm going to order some more low light plants elodea etc. Will remove 1 sponge every week or so

Thanks for your help.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> How would floating plants make slime algae worse?


I was not referring to the floating plants, which will indeed help you.

Adding more media to your filter will not help as it will reduce flow. You need to increase flow to help your situation. Slime algae does well with low / no flow (often found in stagnant ponds in nature)

Keep your filter medium to coarse sponge and only half filled to increase flow.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

nickmcmechan said:


> I was not referring to the floating plants, which will indeed help you.
> 
> Adding more media to your filter will not help as it will reduce flow. You need to increase flow to help your situation. Slime algae does well with low / no flow (often found in stagnant ponds in nature)
> 
> Keep your filter medium to coarse sponge and only half filled to increase flow.


I have a circulation pump aiming upwards to rubble water to prevent biofilm. it also does a good job at providing flow, but i will be removing some sponges soon as things balance themselves out


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

onza120 said:


> I have a circulation pump aiming upwards to rubble water to prevent biofilm. it also does a good job at providing flow, but i will be removing some sponges soon as things balance themselves out


Ensure your circulation pump is pointing the same direction as your filter outlet. If they point I different directions they will create dead spots.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

Hello, things are looking well. Alger has subsided plants are looking healthy fish are very happy. Although i have lost a lot of KH, i went from around 7DKH last week and half to 3KH. I'm pretty sure it's because i'm still relying on filter bacteria, i have 3 sponges in there currently, i'm planning on removing them slowly, then relying on plants a bit more. Any advice would be great.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

nickmcmechan said:


> Ensure your circulation pump is pointing the same direction as your filter outlet. If they point I different directions they will create dead spots.


 Yeah they are both pointing towards the back and that is how i created such good flow to combat algae


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Kh dropped from 7-3 in a week? That seems fast to me, but maybe not..I can't remember if you are using RO water or mix with tap? Also, do you have another carbonate source in the tank like dolomite, coral, eggshell, bone meal, etc or have a peat moss or anything else that would acidify the soil to the point of dissolving the carbonates? Maybe you just need to add a little extra tap water to give back a bit of carbonate hardness and balance it out to around 4 dkh, dgh tends to be higher because the gh includes other minerals that feed the plants. 

I can't imagine how bacteria could go through that much carbonate so fast, I thought they used mostly nitrogen, turning ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. All my tests show 0s on all tests but kh, gh, is stable and plants don't show any nitrogen deficiencies plus I top off with RO, so I haven't noticed the bacteria utilizing the Kh at all in a couple months, not enough to make a change.


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## nickmcmechan (Mar 23, 2014)

Bacteria don't us carbonates, plants do

Test kits are inaccurate. Stop testing


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> Kh dropped from 7-3 in a week? That seems fast to me, but maybe not..I can't remember if you are using RO water or mix with tap? Also, do you have another carbonate source in the tank like dolomite, coral, eggshell, bone meal, etc or have a peat moss or anything else that would acidify the soil to the point of dissolving the carbonates? Maybe you just need to add a little extra tap water to give back a bit of carbonate hardness and balance it out to around 4 dkh, dgh tends to be higher because the gh includes other minerals that feed the plants.
> 
> I can't imagine how bacteria could go through that much carbonate so fast, I thought they used mostly nitrogen, turning ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. All my tests show 0s on all tests but kh, gh, is stable and plants don't show any nitrogen deficiencies plus I top off with RO, so I haven't noticed the bacteria utilizing the Kh at all in a couple months, not enough to make a change.


I use RO that i remineralise. I don't have any coral egg shell etc, and my soil contains peat. i have added alkaline buffer to raise the KH. I have only 2 filter sponges so eventually will just be 1 and then rely on plants fully. I am still combating green slime algae. Last time i checked there was no nitrites so it's cycled, but since then i removed a sponge so hopefully things are okay.

i think once i remove one more sponge and heavily rely on plants my KH should stabilise.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

nickmcmechan said:


> Bacteria don't us carbonates, plants do
> 
> Test kits are inaccurate. Stop testing


I was always told bacteria consume KH 24/7

And i'm using API test kits. If i stop testing completely then i don't know what is going on with my aquarium but tbh i hardly do tests, i use my rummy nose tetra as a guideline.


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

Tests do help as a guideline to help figure out extremes. Yes, they aren't very accurate, but they help give you an idea of ranges for different parameters, You wouldn't want chiclids in acid water or soft water crypts in a ph of 8 and the tests do help with that. They also help to judge ammonia and other parameters before you kill your fish by putting them in an uncycled tank. I think test results should be taken with a grain of salt and not relied on completely, but they do help especially with a new setup. A year down the road, you may not have to test at all, but I think you are smart to test now and then while getting everything established.


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## onza120 (Aug 14, 2014)

pandragon said:


> Tests do help as a guideline to help figure out extremes. Yes, they aren't very accurate, but they help give you an idea of ranges for different parameters, You wouldn't want chiclids in acid water or soft water crypts in a ph of 8 and the tests do help with that. They also help to judge ammonia and other parameters before you kill your fish by putting them in an uncycled tank. I think test results should be taken with a grain of salt and not relied on completely, but they do help especially with a new setup. A year down the road, you may not have to test at all, but I think you are smart to test now and then while getting everything established.


This is what i'm confused about. I was told dirted tanks don't need to be cycled, so i done the mistake of not using my cycled filter which would now be completely dead in terms of bacteria. I don't know if should rely on plants or bacteria i'm very confused at this point as i though the plants used the nitrogen happily to grow.

Also i haven't done a proper water change since i setup, so my nitrates are high (around 40-80) so will have to do a 25% water change or more to get them down, luckily i got a water butt full of rain water .


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## pandragon (Jul 10, 2014)

You rely on both. The bacteria always grows no matter what. I don't know why people say dirt tanks don't cyclee I have heard some cycle "silently" as in the plants absorb the spikes, or most of it, making it hard to tell when the tank has finished growing the bacterial colonies. You could get more floating to plants to help with the nitrates, but water changes are still your best bet until everything gets stable, just not usually as often as with high tech or non planted tanks. The only difference in nitrogen cycle I noticed is the lack of denitrifying bacteria, the ones that decompose NITRATE, which is why you have high nitrates. Shallower substrates and mts create higher oxygen levels in roots that don't allow the bacteria to grow that decompose the nitrate. You can get anaerobic conditions in spots and end up with the sulfur dioxide release from the soil and kill your fish if you didn't ave enough plants to begin with, or you can have a few small patches here and there that just help lower nitrates but don't really hurt anything unless majorly disturbed.

The cycling bacteria grow on the glass, substrate, plants, rocks, etc that don't get cleaned by anything other than critters and plants which is why biomedia isn't necessary. Your tank will settle down eventually and you might need to do partial water changes once a week then once a month or longer as time goes by. I wouldn't worry too much about it if everything is healthy you can do some nitrogen tests once in a while to make sure nothing is spiking too high and enjoy your fish and plants.


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