# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Hybrid approaches - high tech and el natural?



## rackethead (Dec 20, 2004)

I was wondering if anyone has tried hybrid approaches -- i.e. high light, c02 supplementation, with soil, minimal water changes.

It seems to me that there should be even less need for water changes with a high tech approach since the faster plant growth will use up nitrates/nitrites/ammonia. There would still be a need for fertilization with the higher c02 light levels, but it could/shold probably be reduced with decreased water changes and filter cleaning.


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## Maurici (May 31, 2004)

Hi rackethead,
In my opinion most possibilities among the two philosophies are possible, but not even with a real success on a long time period, because the most difficult thing two achieve is the balanced tank. So, I think that you will have a problem with the conditions you establish and is that some of the micro-nutrients will be depleted by plant use, and if you reduces the water changes the deficiencies will handicap the plants.
Regards.
Maurici


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## codeflag99 (Mar 19, 2004)

Steve Pushak's methods match fairly closely what you are suggesting. However his method does require regular water changes.

One suggestion: Try to pick one documented successful method to follow, whether it is Diana's or Steve's or someone else's. Don't try and start mixing methods. If you experiment, be prepared for some failures.

How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium Plants (cheap)!


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## Slippery Fingers (Mar 19, 2003)

First, you have to understand how each method work. For example...

Why we must add fertilisers for a CO2-enriched tank?
Why must we perform water change?
Why can we do away with water change in a non-CO2-enriched tank?
What makes the plant growth healthily in each of this method?

Once you get this figured out, then you go ahead to experiment your hybrid method. Otherwise, you are most likely to run into problems and have no idea what went wrong.

BC


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## Slippery Fingers (Mar 19, 2003)

My understanding of each method:

*High light, High CO2*
- Plants needs more nutrients, and is more dependent on nutrients in water column.
- Fertilisations to the water column is necessary. Shortage of any nutrients will cause plants to stun, while algae, requiring less nutrients and being boosted by the elevated CO2 level, will thrive.
- Regular water changes is necessary to prevent built-up and depletion of certain nutrients. (One can never dose exact ratio of nutrients that plants consume.)
- Elevated CO2 will boost the growth of both plants and algae, since plants require more CO2 than algae, it is important to ensure there is high enough CO2 for the plants so that you do not stun the plants while boosting the algae.

*Non-CO2 enriched*
- Plants depends on decomposition of organic matter to supply CO2. A soil substrate with organic matter will help.
- No nutrients is added to the water column. Fish feeding will supply the necessary nutrients. Plants also get the nutrients from the substrate.
- No water change needed, since there is no addition of nutrients to water column.

The above are just my understanding. Please correct me if there is anything incorrect or inaccurate.

IMO, based on my understanding above, your method may not work.

BC


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi BC,

This looks like a fairly accurate summary to me. I'd tack on encouraging emergent growth in Low-Tech tanks. It helps increase total plant growth in the tank thereby preventing algae, etc. However, your analysis is spot-on!


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## mrmag (Jan 12, 2005)

I have a DIY CO2 (agar agar & sugar gel cubes, 1 yeast bottle lasts 6 weeks) system in an otherwise low-tech tank. I am now finding nutrient deficiencies in the water column & stem plants are not doing as well as they should. I am unsure if stem plants do well in a fully low-tech tank either.

However, I think a balance is possible between the two methods (simply because just about anything is possible if the proper methodology is followed).

I would start with a low-tech method and then add new components, equipment, etc. as you feel it is fit. It depends on what you are looking for. If you do things in a scientific manner as Diana has done, eventually you will be able to find a balance.

mike


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## NoDeltaH2O (May 13, 2005)

I've been unwittingly trying the "hybrid method" I believe you are referring to. I have a 20-gallon long tank set up as a loach "river tank" with LOTS of fast easy to grow plants like tenellus, lotus nymphae, mondo grass, elodea, swords, rotala, mosses, etc. I have overdriven normal output flourescents that roughly equate to 90 watts (~4.5Watts/gallon). I'm running DIY CO2 above 30ppm, and add iron & potassium daily, and a wee lil' bit of phosphate via my fleet enema when I'm feeling kinda' crazy or just want to scare the company. I have a lot of evaporation for 2 reasons: my place is dry, and overdriven flourescents run much warmer than usual. I have to top off about a half quart a day or so, haven't really tracked it though, sometimes more, sometimes less. I'm relying on the topping-off to supply some of the "lesser" trace elements. It's an experiment, what can I say. It's been up for a year now and looks great, if you like jungles. The fish absolutely seem to love it.

I'm heavily planted, and heavily stocked:
4 Hillstream loaches (Beaufortia kweichowensis)
2 Zipper Loaches (Acanthocobitis botia)
3 SAE (Crossocheilus)
1 Chinese Algae Eater (Maximus misnomer)
4 Otos (Otocinclus affinis)
5 WCM minnows
4 Glass Catfish (Kryptopterus bicirrhis)
1 RedFin Shark (Epalzeorhynchos munense)
11 Amano Shrimp (Caridina japonica)

The hybrid method is a constant balancing act, and would be easier if I had a pressurized CO2 system, but the appropriations committee is still out on that one. My goal is to completely eliminate water changes, and my Nitrates are always below 10ppm, sometimes dropping flat to ZERO, and I have to add some nitrate of soda to bring it up. There has been some flap about metabolite buildup, but the verdict still seems out on that as far as I am concerned. We do not fully understand all the seceondary chemical processes going on, but obviously I want to understand what I am doing as much as possible, which is why I am here.

Some pics of my "Hybrid" Hi-Tech, Low/No Water Change River tank:
http://www.lehigh.edu/~ded2/aquarium/RiverTankEastSide.jpg
http://www.lehigh.edu/~ded2/aquarium/RiverTankLongShot.jpg
http://www.lehigh.edu/~ded2/aquarium/RiverTankWestSide.jpg
http://www.lehigh.edu/~ded2/aquarium/HillStream_on_Glass.jpg
http://www.lehigh.edu/~ded2/aquarium/HillStream_Loach_On_Glass.jpg


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I took a quick look at one picture of your tank. It looks great! I' sure that the fish are happy living in this "aquatic rainforest".

With heavy plant growth like this, you may not need to change water at all. Remember that plants passively take up elements like chloride from the water, even though plants don't need chloride. Thus, the fear hobbyists have that salts will inevitably build up if they don't do frequent water changes may not apply in your case. However, keep those plants pruned so that you get continuos growth and removal of salts.

Let plant growth and fish apetite guide your water changes. If plants stop growing or fish stop eating, then consider doing a water change. 

There's no need to do robotic water changes.


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## mrmag (Jan 12, 2005)

Looks pretty good indeed!

Diana, how are water changes related to fish appetite?

Thanks,


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## MyraVan (Feb 13, 2005)

I have 2 Beaufortia kweichowensis in a 20 gallon high (24" long) with an internal filter turned up full blast to provide a fair bit of current and plenty of oxygen. I have thought about eventually getting another tank and making more of a river tank for them, but some of the river tank articles suggest that I doesn't work with less than a 30 gallon tank. But you've done it with a 20 gallon long. Did you you the powerheads at one end, sponge-covered intakes at the other end, kind of thing?


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## NoDeltaH2O (May 13, 2005)

Sorry I took so long to reply to you about that last Q. Yes, powerheads at one end and sponge filters at the other end connected by PVC pipe that runs under the gravel. Plenty of current.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by mrmag:
> 
> Diana, how are water changes related to fish appetite?
> QUOTE]
> ...


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