# just read about how great taiwan is and how much we're being overcharged



## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

i came back from taiwan feeling VERY disappointed... because i can't conveniently bring over live invertebrates 
okay so we are getting very ripped off here is the pricing
1 US dollar = 32 yuan in taiwan
horned nerite snail= 20 yuan
red cherry shrimp= 5 yuan
grade A crystal red shrimp (they were VERY high quality)= 30 yuan
yellow shrimp= 20 yuan
orange CPO= 100 yuan
white crayfish= 100 yuan
simple c02 set=600 yuan (it uses 12-16 gram threaded co2 cylinders and a knob for control and the output is airhose fitted) i can take a picture of it if you want to know what i'm talking about.
you see what i'm getting at? it's very unnerving to go back to taiwan and see all these things sold so cheaply on the streets or stores... 
i hope i haven't made you want to slap yourself


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Its called supply and demand.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Its called we need people from Taiwan on this forum TAB. :^)


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Now you know why there are so many sellers on Ebay selling all this stuff!


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

you should have seen all the plants they were selling... huge tanks with rows and rows of plants all less than a dollar >.> 
hehe but i did manage to sneak a portion of dwarf four leaf clover back to the us... it cost me 2 dollars for like a 5 inch by 5 inch portion


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## TonyVideo (Aug 11, 2010)

It shows how many hands are dipping into the well.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

neilshieh said:


> you should have seen all the plants they were selling... huge tanks with rows and rows of plants all less than a dollar >.>
> hehe but i did manage to sneak a portion of dwarf four leaf clover back to the us... it cost me 2 dollars for like a 5 inch by 5 inch portion


Hi neilshieh,

You can't believe how much trouble you could have gotten into if they had caught you at U.S. Customs / U.S. Dept. of Agriculture; your clover would certainly *not* have been lucky. I sure hope no foreign "nastys" (bugs or flora) hitchhiked in along with your clover; what you have done is exactly how some of our worst invasive bugs and plants have gotten into the country.


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

yeah i know... but i had the owner sanitize it in some kind of dip that kills all organism although it kinds of weakens the plant... but the way i see it is like buying plants on ebay from people like go-aqua or aquaticmagic, they ship plants from foreign countries without much thought on invasive species


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## Markw78 (May 6, 2004)

It also costs a good amount to have an Import/Export licenses on both sides, not to mention shipping WATER around the world... and we're not talking a little LFS bag with a shrimp, we're talking a 3 gallon bag of water with 500 shrimp in it to a wholesaler...Then the wholesaler marks it up and sells it to a LFS who marks it up more and sells it to the public. Each party also has do deal with losses.

Not to mention cost of living and general economy differences =p

Plus Supply/Demand... Of course they're cheaper at the source


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## virgo888 (Jun 25, 2009)

that simple co2 set sells for about $65 where I live - California.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

neilshieh said:


> yeah i know... but i had the owner sanitize it in some kind of dip that kills all organism although it kinds of weakens the plant... but the way i see it is like buying plants on ebay from people like go-aqua or aquaticmagic, they ship plants from foreign countries without much thought on invasive species


Obtaining an import permit from APHIS is free. Having the plants inspected and given a phytosanitary certificate in Taiwan would likely have been inexpensive and then you could have brought back tons of plants. If you get caught smuggling into the USA it's a $1,000.00 fine whether you bring them in yourself or knowingly order from disreputable sellers such as those you mentioned.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Aaron,

Aaron, thank you for reminding us! I think a lot of people just don't realize that if we order plants or livestock from overseas that we (the buyer) are held responsible by the U.S. Government and not the shipper. Fines, legal hassles, and the Dept. of Immigration puts us on their "Special" list so we get "extra attention" when going through customs upon return to the U.S. from traveling overseas.

I buy some "dry goods" like Drop Checkers from overseas, but nothing alive. It is just not worth taking a chance.


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## Rony1107 (Dec 25, 2009)

I believe we can find discounts or sales in the shops we regulary buy. Why take the chance of being caught and paying a fine + criminal charges, court,etc. not worth it. In my country we have the same laws and if caught we pay a fine of 10,000 shekels = 2500 dollars, lawyer+mis.charges separately. 
Also there r people in our forum who r ready to give plant/s for free or for a meagre fee so why take the risk of smuggling plants n live animals.


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

i was unaware of being able to obtain the permit as a citizen, i thought it was only for studies or projects. and yes it was a stupid thing to do, i will look into obtaining a permit next time.


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## R33 GTR (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Seattle_Aquarist i have a question can i buy plants and fish in the US and put them on a carry on bag and travel to Puerto Rico i am asking you because you now the law better that me jejejeje


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi R33 GTR,



> All plants and/or vegetative propagating material introduced into Puerto Rico must be free from
> sand, soil, earth, and other foreign matter and must be accompanied by an inspection certificate
> issued by the governmental authorities in charge of enforcing plant quarantine regulations in the
> state, territory or district in the U.S. from which the material comes. The certificate must bear the
> ...


Sorry, I can't tell you about live fish but I wouldn't take anything I didn't want flushed.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Neil, I suggest you get an import permit and bring back some plants and shrimp direct from overseas next time you go! Remember to purchase some large breather bags and bring a Styrofoam box or two, one for livestock and one for plants.

While there put up a list of things you can bring back along with prices here in the forum!

You don't pay taxes on the first $1,000-$1,500 of stuff you bring back into the USA. Just a thought.

I'd love one of those mini co2 things. Its so cash.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

For a business to exist in the US the prices cannot be low. Below I will give a real-life example how a fish that is sold by an Asian company for $0.25 wholesale ends up being $3.60 retail.

After importing any fish you need to mark it up at least 3 times. If you don't your days as a business are numbered.

Example:

Rasbora espei - $0.25 wholesale. Approx.
Add $0.60 per fish for packaging & shipping to import it. Approx.
Price for 1 Rasbora espei + shipping = $0.85 to import.

30% of the fish you import normally die. No matter what you do. So the price for the dead fish needs to be spread among the fish that stay alive: In a typical order that would add another $0.35 per fish. If more fish die - this $0.35 could be up to $1.00 or more.

Price for 1 Rasbora espei + shipping + compensate for dead fish = $1.20.

Now mark this up 3 times. Once again - that is the minumum markup. If you don't markup 3x you will be out of business very quickly.

Price for 1 Rasbora espei + shipping + compensation for dead fish + 3x markup = $3.60.

Nice.

Those are actual numbers. 

There are only two ways around that price (which the market cannot take):

1. Mark up popular fish less. Mark up more rare fish much more than 3x. Overall you break even - as if you marked up all fish 3x. And that is just to keep the business going. No real profit. Can't make a living that way.

2.Breed the fish locally. That will assure no dead fish + no shipping charges. Automatically you can subtract about $1.00 from the price. Nice. But who can tinker with breeding?

Hope I didn't bore you. Reality is reality.

The documents to bring live animals are not that expensive. But there are a lot of other considerations which turn the idea of quick and easy money in pet fish export not as easy as it seems.

--Nikolay


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

so anyone want to shed some insight as to where to get a permit?


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

I'll agree with the question of everything surviving. With breather bags, an a little moss you can pack up about 20+ shrimps per baggie. In a medium foam shipping box you can easily pack 10-20 such bags depending on how large you make them.

Breakdown in costs, for 280 shrimps, with 200 surviving, price including packing materials/photo sanitary is probably about $380.00 for 280 shrimps, or $1.35 per shrimp.
If 80 die, the price goes up to $1.90 per shrimp.

Currently, grade A price state side is about $3.00 per shimp.

I know plenty of people would be willing to purchase some fresh stock here in the states, especially if the price is only about $1.90 per shrimp. Everyone would have to accept the risk that you won't get everything you purchase though.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ my good sir!

Count me in on anything that happens. I'd love a co2 system and 50+ shrimps.

What prices are their higher grades?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Exporters all have minimum orders. Noone will send you a single box.

Exporters could scam you. Please understand that you are sending money to people that you never see.

Be aware of the "group buy". As some people here remember the experience with the Sulawesi shrimp 2-1/2 years ago was a major disaster. If there is a "group buy" everybody needs to understand that they are basically betting that the animals will arrive fine and be distributed fine. If anything goes bad be prepared to lose money. Gambling basically.

Breather bags - about 1 in 50 breather bags busts open during shipping. That's not a real problem except the Post Office goes into Red Zone Panic mode when they see something leaking from a box. They will actually call you on the phone to question you what's in the box and to tell you that they are thrashing the whole thing.

Whoever receives the big shipment MUST have clean established tanks ready to accept the animals. And NOT ship them out to people the next day. Maybe in a week. Before that it's basically risking even more.

Shipping would be best done in big boxes. Shipping 10 shrimp to me and 5 to you and 8 to someone else will be a major headhache for whoever imports and distributes the shrimp.

As I said - importing sounds like a great idea. And it could be done as a group buy providing everybody involved understands that there is a risk of losing everything.

--Nikolay


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

didn't bother to look. i recently sold a co2 system i got from taiwan to doubleott05. it uses 12-16 gram thread co2 cylinders. its by waterplant and i thought it was great if you had a good source of cheap co2 bottles, which i didn't... those kind of co2 regulators is one simple knob which you can twist minutely to adjust output. really simple, can't see why they aren't selling it in the US.
heres the thread
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/74247-fs-co2-system-nano-aquariums.html


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

i'm not going to import, what i want is to actually go to taiwan and carry a box back with me... might as well get something from a family vacation located in somewhere hot and humid as hell.
if you want. tell me what kind of things you're looking to buy and ill see if i can get it. as for plants... i'm looking into permits and how exactly im going to explain to my mom as to why im carrying a large styro lined box onto the plane.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Yeah, he would be bringing them back into the states. Not from an importer!

Also, neil the box would probably end up going into cargo, you'd probably need a heatpack as well!!!
-Gordon


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Gordon has the right site for obtaining import permits. I've only ever done plants myself. It goes something like this.

-Sign up for an aphis account online
-Find a nearby field office that you can visit to verify who you are in person and have full capabilities on your online account
-Fill out an application for the plants you want to import, including what country and scientific names
-If it is approved the permit will be mailed to you along with decals that need to be mailed to the person and /or business you are importing from
- Once they have the decals they need to have the plants phytosanitary inspected and can then mail them to you placing one of your import labels on the package.


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

Hopefully ill go back next year. Meanwhile... Do you need to be 18 years or older to get permits and stuff?


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

Gordonrichards said:


> Yeah, he would be bringing them back into the states. Not from an importer!
> 
> Also, neil the box would probably end up going into cargo, you'd probably need a heatpack as well!!!
> -Gordon


Good point. They wont allow any kind of fluids. It seems that bringing animals are more trouble than its worth... I might as well bring plants that are super expensive here.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

aphis is for plants.
Unsure about permits for livestock.


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