# Need some help with a biosphere



## lorddave551 (Sep 23, 2006)

Hey guys i'm doing a large 10g biosphere(trying to). And i've run across a few problems i just don't know the answers to. First thing i'll do is tell u what a biosphere is if you don't know. Its essentially a sealed enviornment or 10g fishtank in my case that can live and reproduce on its own with no feeding or human intervention. I've already got an idea of how its gonna be but i hope u guys can help me clarify a few gray areas.

1. Water fleas-I've read everywhere that they eat algae like crazy. But unforutnately the tank will be planted heavily. And from what i've read plants stop algae so the fleas will starve. Does anyone know if they eat live plants at all? Ideally it would be something like elodia which is cheap and grows like a weed from what i hear. I know a lot of people have cultivated them so i'm sure you can shed some light on what they eat. 

2. Goldfish-Gonna have to use goldfish in this tank, around 6-10 standard size ones. They are perfect from what i have read, they will keep the plant population in check, maybe even a little too well. Right now i am looking into either elodia or watersprite since both grow fast. Any other ideas are more than welcome. Bear in mind that i cannot open this thing once i seal it.

3. Water fleas and goldfish-Do goldfish eat water fleas?


And once again bear in mind that i cannot open this once it is sealed. The plants i am looking for must grow in relatively low lighting and must be able to survive constant exposure to water fleas and goldfish. Anyone who has tried something on this scale please message me. Thank you.

I'll eventually post a diagram of this thing to show you what i'm doing


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Holy cow, I've never heard of Goldfish being subject to the torture of a small sealed tank with the heavy bio-load they will produce.
I wouldn't even put one in there, let alone over a half a dozen.

I've heard of people doing this with micro fish, but I don't even consider that really humane.

That said, I'm not at all up on the biospheres, but I do know that no fish should have to live in a sealed environment permanently, regardless of how well things are "supposed" be balanced.

Maybe if you try it with just the water fleas and the plants, it could work and be interesting though. 

We'll watch for your diagram and progress.


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## lorddave551 (Sep 23, 2006)

heh. Um basically what it will be is a ten gallon tank divided into three compartments. Each one taller than the next. At the bottom there will be a water pump to pump water from bottom compartment to top compartment. This would create a series of small waterfalls not to mention running water. It should prevent the water from stagnating. In the top compartment there will be heavy vegetation and much of the same in the second compartment. In addition both will have a healthy population of water fleas going. The last compartment will be planted with some kind of floating plant, ideally watersprites depending on the feedback i get. So yes, there will be running water and a steady supply of water fleas to feed them i hope... The closes thing i can think of is what Petco uses to display their aquatic plants. As far as the biomass goes i am hoping that the heavy planting i am going to use in this tank will filter most of it out. And as far as the number of fish goes that is largely up in the air. I hope the feedback will give me a good number to go with. Torture i hope not, but how comfortable it is depends on a lot of things. I'm trying to research this thing to death though before i put live goldfish at risk. I'll get a picture eventually but its gonna be hard to draw.

The other idea i was considering was one with the small red shrimps. I've tried several times to figure out exactly what they are but all i get is are buisness sites that only sell them with their biospheres. The ones i am looking at are on fuku bonsai hawaiian indoor houseplant penjing lava planting (click on mini lobster link). I have no idea what they are... The other problem is that i'm pretty sure they live in salty water severly limiting my choices in terms of plants. And no i don't consider algae plants. If you could tell me what these things are and who sells them i'd be more than happy to consider changing my plans.


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## Cassie (May 27, 2006)

you really do not want to put standard goldfish in a 10g tank. I started off with three "standard" feeder fish from a fair and they are now a good 6-8 inches long, EACH! There's not a single goldfish that would do well in a 10g, no matter how well it was filtered. It's just not enough room for them to swim. Is there a reason you want to seal it off and never touch it? It seems a bit more reasonable to have a very low maintainance tank that you's have to "mess with" maybe once a month or so...but maybe that's just me


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

I think a self-contained biosphere is a neat idea... I actually considered doing something like that several years ago. The more I thought about it though, the more I thought it probably wouldn't be very successful.

One of the big differences between a 'natural' body of water and the aquariums we keep is the bioload. For instance, we have a 10,000 gallon pond in our backyard stocked with feeder goldfish (most about 7"), koi, and mosquito fish. It also has a pretty decent amount of plants growing in it. Over the years the fish have bred and produced offspring, but the population seems to have more or less stabilized at around the equivalent of 700 inches of goldfish/koi (I doubled the actual inches because one 10 inch koi is not the same as 5 two inch fish), and 1500 inches (I'm trying to guess on the high side) of mosquito fish. I'm pretty sure that even this stocking rate (around 1 inch of fish per 4.5 gallons) is higher than a completely natural body of water, and would not be sustained if we didn't feed the fish. To keep the stocking rate low enough on your 10 gallon -- which I assume wouldn't be full if it's going to have waterfalls -- you would have to have only a couple 1" fish.

Personally, I wouldn't even keep one full-grown comet (standard goldfish) in a 20 gallon tank. I think Jan is right about just water fleas and plants being more realistic -- you might want to try that. Red ramshorn snails (not Columbian ramshorns!!) are also very good at eating decaying plant matter and could be beneficial, and they don't seem to eat healthy plants. Something like red cherry shrimp or "micro-lobsters" *might* work, but I have no experience with them... maybe someone else can chime in. BTW, a page on that website you listed says that the micro-lobsters are Halocarindina rubra, but also mentions "It really bothers me that they are condemned to a long, slow death sealed in air-tight glass and promoted as art and science. I strongly disagree with those who sell them as 'perfect pets that never need to be fed!'" Granted, I think that's talking about the little < 1 liter biosphere things...

If you want something sustainable and feel like you absolutely must have fish, you might? want to think about endler's livebearers or something else that stays really small and breeds easily. Very small, easy to breed egglayers (Tanichthys micagemmae possibly?) would probably not overpopulate as easily as livebearers. IMO, a 10 gallon tank would still be far too small to have a relatively stable biosphere with fish.

As far as plants go, you have to worry about _their_ sustainability as well. If you want anything that's actually "planted" in the substrate, you'd probably have to go with something that reproduces using runners (Cryptocoryne wendtii comes to mind...), or eventually you'll just end up with a bunch of floating stems. If they're growing well, you'd end up with a total jungle in the area that was planted though. I have a feeling that no matter what plants you keep, finding the balance between overgrowth and slowly dying off will be very difficult.

Some other things to consider with a sealed aquarium: 1) Aquariums should *not* be moved even only half full, so if you ever needed to move it you'd have to unseal it... 2) heat buildup from the pump (might not be a big deal if your place is airconditioned, but I don't know) 3) pump blockage / failure 4) very hard to experiment with things to find out what works

Sorry about the long post! :blabla: I'd be very interested to know what you decide.

BTW, how do you plan on sealing the tank?


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Considering what a Bio-Sphere is supposed to be and accomplish; I find the above posts wonderful, informative and NOT long at all considering the topic. Considering how overwhelmingly complex a naturally planted tank is; this sounds like trying to go to the moon in comparison.

I look forward to reading more about this.

lorddave551, have you read Diana Walstad's book - Ecology of the Planted Aquarium? 
If so, did you find this to have some helpful information in it for your Bio-Sphere?


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## lorddave551 (Sep 23, 2006)

Jimbo205, i have not read that book yet but i'll try to get my hands on a copy soon. I'll keep you informed. 

Tropism, thanks for your help. I only really chose goldfish because i knew they were very hardy. I overlooked thier tendency to grow. I'll probably end up going with Tanichthys micagemmae since they stay small and will create minimal problems in terms of overpopulation. They also come from a river like habitat so this biosphere will have some element of their natural habitat in it. So these look like a good idea thus far. But specifically i wanted to ask you what size tank you think would be suitable for this purpose. And to answer your question about sealing the tank i would simply get a piece of glass, have it cut down to size then put it over my tank. I would then fill the gaps between the tank and the glass plate with vaseline and finally duct tape the edges for double security. Vacumm sealed this is not, but its as close as i am gonna get.

But overall, i still have a few questions about this whole deal so if anyone has any answers to these please post:
1. Water Fleas-The more i read about them the more i realize how problematic they would be in an aquarium enviornment. To breed them people essentially put them in sewage water... So has anyone had any experience breeding them in water in which other fish can actually live? And also do these guys eat any live plants other than algae, like java moss? This tank will be heavily planted and i've read that plants stifle algae growth which is what these guys eat. Or if anyone else has an idea to replace fleas please let me know.
2. How many fish? Since this is going to be a highly planted aquarium how many fish would i need? Since these are guppy sized fish i'm beginning to wonder how many i need to keep a healthy plant population going. Too few fish=not enough nitrogen=dead plants. 
3. Vegetarian fish? Aside from algae eaters does anyone know of a herbivore fish? It would make this whose thing loads easier since i would not have to worry about the water flea population. But thus far, all fish that i can find are omnivorous, and i can only speculate the negative effects of taking away meat from their diet. If there was a fish that only ate plants my life would be a lot simpler since i would not a have a need for water fleas. Besides most of should know it, a fish that fed on plants would be public enemy #1 around here.
4. What size tank? Just give me some input on how big the tank should be. 

thnxs again for you help.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

i would suggest doing a normal fish tank before trying a biosphere. From your suggestion of using goldfish for a 10 gallon biosphere, it showed you obviously have no clue about fishkeeping. 

Not many people in the world have successfully created a true sealed off biosphere that contains fish. 

Anyway hope i didnt come off too blunt.


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## lorddave551 (Sep 23, 2006)

Newguy, i have had fish before but not goldfish. Besides, if you read further down you would see that i have since changed my plans from goldfish to a much smaller species of fish and have agreed to enlarge the tank. And don't worry about the bluntness, blunt answers are the most honest ones out there.


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

I can't stress enough how difficult it can be to create a self-sustaining biosphere. My instincts tell me that it _may_ work for a few months, *maybe* even a year, but after that (assuming no massive melt down at some point) the whole system would slowly decline. From what I understand, this is even the case for the small glass bubble "biospheres" some companies sell as being totally "self-sustaining". If the fish start to get skinny or seem to be suffering, PLEASE unseal the tank and treat it like you would a normal aquarium.

*Also, remember that this advice comes from somebody who has never attempted something like this because of the complexity involved... I am by no means an expert.*

Another plug for Diana Walstad's book: I would definitely read it before attempting this. There's also a lot of good information in the "El Natural" section of APC.

Now on to your questions:
1) I don't know a whole lot about daphnia (water fleas), but here's what I do know. They are filter feeders -- they feed on various microscopic things in the water. I could be wrong, but I don't think they eat plants. Usually people raise them in green water (single celled, free floating algae). Green water is usually ok for fish, but is not very nice too look at, and in an enclosed system it might actually kill your fish by using up all the oxygen at night. You might want to start another thread somewhere on APC to ask specifically about whether a population of daphnia (or something else) can survive and reproduce in a divided tank (fish on one side only), without food added.

2) Stocking rate of fish would have to be very low in order for them to find enough food. I'm *guessing* that would mean less than 1 inch of fish (max adult size) per 3 gallons of water, but this depends on a lot of things. Having enough food for your fish is likely to be the limiting factor in how many fish you can have. You are not going to be able to rely solely on fish to keep your plants healthy - fish waste can replenish plant nutrients for a year or two _only if you feed the fish sufficiently_. Most of the nutrients would be provided by soil, decomposing plant material, and the critters that eat the dead plants. Read up on soil substrates in the "El Natural" area or in Diana's book.

3) The problem with most purely vegetarian fish is that they typically *destroy* a planted tank in a few days to a week. Not just a nibble here and there. Your plant growth couldn't keep up with it. The only exceptions I know of would be small algae eaters such as otocinclus. However, if you can grow enough algae for them to eat, then there's a good possibility that you'll end up with the sides of the tank having a green, hazy film. It could also be much worse.

4) A 10 gallon might work with shrimp and no fish, but especially since you plan on keeping fish and separating the tank into 3 areas, I wouldn't go with anything less than a 20 gallon long (30" long x 12" wide x 12" high). Aquariums from the 30g long (36x12x16) up to the 55g (48x13x20) would probably be better, but the bigger the aquarium, the bigger the investment in money, space, and your state of mind if it don't work out.


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

A couple possibilities I've thought of (if someone sees problems, please let us know -- a lot of this is just guessing on my part): 

--common to all--
Walstad style soil substrate.
Lots of rooted plants (maybe Crypt. wendtii in an upper chamber, Echinodorus tenellus in the lowest? Other suggestions anybody?)
A big diversity in small aquatic life (daphnia, moina, black worms?, rotifers, paramecia, “infusoria”)
Some type of small shrimp that is hardy and reproduces readily
Red Ramshorn Snails
Malaysian Trumpet Snails

--fish option 1--
a single male betta (most obvious choice... should have thought of this before)
OR a couple females, not both
Obviously, you'll never have offspring -- the fish component to this system wouldn't be self-sustaining (which would be extremely difficult to achieve anyway).

--fish option 2--
Dwarf Puffers (Tetraodon travancoricus)
Would probably have enough tiny “bugs”, baby snails (probably the key here), and baby shrimp for them to eat. Very unlikely to reproduce.

-- option 3--
feeder guppies (certainly the cheapest and easiest to find option, and some can have great colors), maybe endlers
 They won't eat snails, but they will eat some algae and the “bugs”. The only option I know of guaranteed to reproduce-- but will they overpopulate and lead to disaster, or will the population just stabilize? I have no idea.

-- option 4--
LOTS of duckweed (don't know how well it would survive in a tank like this, and may take too much light from E. tenellus... just not sure)
Sparkling gourami (Trichopsis pumila) or “giant” sparkling gourami (Trichopsis schalleri)
I've only had the “giant” sparkling gouramis (still only get to 1.5”), and they ate the small amount of duckweed I had in my tank. All of it... I didn't have enough for it to reproduce fast enough. They would also eat the small aquatic life & baby shrimp. (as a side note, mine were evil and killed some tetras and full grown Amano shrimp, but I don't think that's normal)

-- option 5--
Tanichthys micagemmae
Might be a good option (enough food being the main concern), but I've never had them. They can be very hard to find.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Tropism, I wouldn't consider any of those fish bad choices *if* the tank wasn't going to be permanently sealed. 
I just personally don't think that any fish or invert should be subject to an experiment like that knowing that it probably won't work for all of the reasons stated above.

I'm not saying that it isn't an interesting idea, but I would change the plans to a basic plant/water flea setup to see what snags are going to be encountered.

It has been proven time and time again that the theory sounds good, but fish never come out of it without suffering and living a far less than perfect existence for as long as they can manage to survive.


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## lorddave551 (Sep 23, 2006)

Mmmk thanks for you input. Since then i think i've stumbled across a more viable pathway. That is ghost shrimp. They breed easily and eat algae and dead plant matter. In summary my idea would be to add around 20 shrimp to the 10g aquarium and have it heavily planted with a good growth of algae. I don't think that shrimp will produce enough nitrogen to keep the plants growing so therefore some will die to the point where nitrogen begins the build up again. Then the shrimp eat the dead plant matter. I think it sounds fairly simplistic so i'm pretty sure i might have overlooked something. Primarily how plants die... I'm not sure if a lack of nitrogen outright kills the plants completely or if it kills them slowly. If its slowly thats good since only parts of the plant die when nitrogen drops, and once the levels come back to normal they regrow and die again etc... But if it just dies all at once then problems arise. But this is the new model.


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## Robert (Feb 7, 2005)

Hi, 
do you want to hear the truth? It won't work for sure! 

You don't seem to understand enough about biology to see the cpmplexity of a biological system. A sealed one of this size is not possible, especially not under water. The biggest limitation is also the most simple one: oxygen. Most forms of life will depend on it and it is VERY limited in your system. It will run out in a couple of weeks or earlier. 

Plants need oxigen to survive as well as a source of carbon, both are not provided in your system. They will use what's given and then die. The dead plant material consist of mainly C, H and O, so it is not available anymore for the plants. Bacteria, paramecium etc. which will feed directly or indirectly on the decaying plant material will also need oxygen. Your invertebrae will feed on them and need oxygen, too.

So this is just one limitation of your seald system. There a lot more.

Plants need a source of carbon, they can't use decaying plant material. There will be carbon in a gas-like stage but it is probably methan, not CO2. It will kill your critters.

Your plants will lack trace elements. They need not only nitrogen but a alot more elements which you can't provide them in a sealed environment. In the end they starve and die off.

Your shrimps etc. will need food, to be more exact: a constant supply of nutrients (proteins, lipids, carbohydrats, vitamins etc) as well as oxygen. You can't provide this. Their metabolism will produce several waste products which will also be a problem. They will also starve and die, probably even earlier than the plants.

What you would need are aerobic (with O2) and unaerobic (without O2) conditions at the same time and in a balance and even then you will have a problem. You can't control it and you definitely don't know what will happen inside. Hey, even the metabolism of a single algae cell is too complicated for you to understand it completely, every stage, everything regarding the metabolism. Now think about thousands of different forms of life which interact. If you won't understand what's happening, you will just sit there and wonder about your failure.

A sealed tank is at first a mainly aerobic system, good for animals, plants etc. which need oxygen. After a while most of the oxygen will be in use in the biological system and will finally be bound in waste products which aerobic bacteria etc can't use anymore. Then the unaerobic bacteria, fungi etc. will have their big meal. But they also produce waste products of their own metabolism and in the end even they will die because of these toxic waste products. Here is simple example which might know: yeast. It can survive in unearobic conditions for a while but then it kills itself with the alcohol which it produces as a waste product.

Even our own planet is no sealed environment. Something like this doesn't exist.

Make it a normal tank, add nutrients for your plants and other inhabitants on a regular basis, do regular water changes and see if you can keep it alive for a year or two. But don't seal it and let everything die inside if you are interested in keeping it in the stage you plan to set it up.

regards

Robert


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