# GH/KH Softening



## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

So in the area that I live the tap here is very Alkaline, like +/-8.2. It is recommended in a lot of traditional gardening that for every gallon of water added to plants that you add 1 teaspoon of epsom salt. Can this be done with my aquariums as well to improve GH/KH? Where I live RoDi is no option so I have to explore other options. A DIY option here would be great if possible. A non chemical water additive or other alternative would be most desireable. Thanks


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

A ph of 8.2 is likely the result of a high kH (carbonate hardness). In most cases you likely have a high gh (general hardness, or mineral hardness).

Espom salt is Magnesium Sulfate. This will raise your gh even higher and may not be nessasary (depending on the ratio of calcium to magnesium your water has).

Why isn't RODI an option? If you have low pressure, you can install a booster pump. Last week Bulk Reef Supply had some really good deals on their RO units.

If you stay with the tap water and want it softer, you could look into trying Seachem's Acid buffer. It's a blend of bisulfate salts. These acidic salts will attack the kh and convert it into CO2.

I don't have any good ideas on how to lower the gh other than dilution. You could collect rainwater/snow and blend it with the tap water.

You best options are to either adapt to your natural tap water (Vals, anubias, and other African plants like hard water) or to bite the bullet on RODI. Trying to adjust tap water can become a nightmare and cause more problems then it's worth.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Tugg said:


> A ph of 8.2 is likely the result of a high kH (carbonate hardness). In most cases you likely have a high gh (general hardness, or mineral hardness).
> 
> Espom salt is Magnesium Sulfate. This will raise your gh even higher and may not be nessasary (depending on the ratio of calcium to magnesium your water has).
> 
> ...


I have anubias, ludwigia, hygro, riccia, and eleocharis on order for the 10g to be setup right now. My 55g native has plants and fish that are locally harvested so it fine because, well, thats what they are used to. Its the other tanks that are more "aquascaped" I am concerned with.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

tugg - that didnt post the way I thought it would. Hopefully you can decifer how it was intended to read.


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## JoeRoun (Nov 10, 2008)

*Gh & KH*

Hi,

It would seem that your general hardness (GH) is about 11.5 dGH, your apparent temporary hardness (KH) is approaching 16-dKH.

If you could take some tap water, rinse then fill a glass, stir and let sit for a day or so and check the pH. We could gauge the carbonate hardness a little more accurately.

This isn't terrible water&#8230;

You definitely do not need to add Epsom salt.

Respectfully,
Joe


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

*Re: Gh & KH*



JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would seem that your general hardness (GH) is about 11.5 dGH, your apparent temporary hardness (KH) is approaching 16-dKH.
> 
> ...


I will do that tonight and let you know. Thanks for the help.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

Thius is an old method but has been tried by many years ago and as long as careful with it it will work. 

First off get a container to treat the water in prior to putting it into an aquarium. Then you can a small amount of Muratic acid to the water usually about 1 ounce per 10 gallons. Then let the mixture settle of at least 24 hours and check the water for both hardness as well as pH. The old goal to get a the get the pH between 7.2 and 7.6 using this method. If the pH is still high more acid can be used. But after each addition you must let things stabilize at least 24 hours. 

I have heard other things like using other types of acids are can be saver even going to vinegar for small pH changes. But the acid not only lowers the pH but also the water hardness.


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## JoeRoun (Nov 10, 2008)

*Poor Man's Alternative to RO*

Poor man's alternative to RO as well as maintaining the general hardness (GH).

First is liming, many of us have seen this when dosing fertz containing Calcium, in fact it is the one point where KH and GH actually cross.

I have read many times about people saying it "snows" when they dose fertz. I resist saying anything as many "experts" like more complicated answers.

It is really Calcium bonding with the carbonate and precipitating, usually Calcium carbonate.


 Effectively reducing the KH and not adding to the general hardness.
 Industry uses this method to protect equipment, the
 Calcium carbonate settles or is filtered out.
 It is not difficult to reduce the KH in tap water using lime and maybe some heat.
 The second method that I really do not recommend, but use myself, :wink: Muriatic acid, HCl.

Follow all the safety rules, seriously, do this out of doors, in a well-ventilated area, breeze blowing away from you. Use gloves, safety goggles, away from kids, pets so on. If you are a kid, get parental permission and supervision. The stuff can ruin your day (and life)! :-s

I really recommend either being able to determine carbonate hardness accurately either by titration (some idea of chemistry) or a Lamotte test kit, still titration but the stuff is worked out for you. Be careful of even Hach's and others have end points above pH 5. Make sure you have a reasonably accurate method of measuring pH. :smile:

The problem of pH returning, actually it is the carbonates reforming as with the liming above, we removed the carbonates from solution.

In this case we are going to drive the CO2 off the carbonate, effectively removing the carbonate from solution by aeration.

I would never dose Muriatic acid, HCl into my tanks directly, my critters are to curious and even well diluted I would fear the potential damage, damage that might not be immediately apparent.

Which brings the issue of pH swings, if your tank has critters, keep the


 pH changes to no more than pH 0.3 per day.
 In fact if you are changing the pH more than 1 whole point,
 remember that a full point lower is 10 times more acidic
 allow a couple days between the 0.3 drops in pH,
 take your time.
 Fish can be harmed and you may not see the results of the harm for a couple of weeks.

Large changes in pH can irreversibly harm fish,
_the classic example are Neon tetras experiencing a full pH point swing,
even if the water is immediately stabilized and the fish keeper thinks he got away with it, they all look fine, swimming around, eating but two-weeks later the tetras begin dying off and within 3-days, a week, they are all dead._​For this procedure I recommend using a tub, garbage can (preferably new, at least clean), it is nice to have an air pump, capable of really getting the water frothing, moving. Glass air diffusers are better than stone or wood for this (my opinion anyway).

Determine how many dKH you wish to remove, frankly in my tub I usually aim for 1-dKH, figuring I will mix tap water to get the desired d-KH. Honestly there are situations to go under 4-dKH. Generally too much KH is not a problem, there are definite exceptions though.

Now, I have certainly learned that any mention of "moles" of something, "specific gravity," "normalizing," "molarity," and so forth are a big turn off. So I am ripping off Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley.

Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley's method seems awkward, but I get it. He uses Muriatic acid, HCl straight out of the bottle and refers to it as 11,000 meq/L, so he is seems to be asserting normal Muriatic acid is the 32%, 20-Baumé variety.

Be aware Muriatic acid is sold in varying concentrations so adjust accordingly.

Thinking of "acidity as negative Alkalinity" and since 1-meq/L will drop the KH 2.8-dKH

Figuring the water out of my tap is 12-dKH and


 I wish to drop it to say 4-dKH, means
 12=dKH - 4-dKH = 8-dKH.
 That is I want to reduce 8-dKH, or
 8-dKH ÷ 2.8 meq/dKH = 2.9 and
 I operate in 20-gallon batches (my preference)

So:

(1-dKH/11,000-meq) × (1-meq Muriatic acid) × (2.9-dKH) × (3.8-L/1-gal) × 20-gal × (1000-ml/1-L)
= (1 ÷ 11,000) × (2.9 Muriatic acid) × (3. × 20 × 1000-ml)
= 20-ml Muriatic acid


 Add about half, 10-ml Muriatic acid in this case.
 Aerate for a while, check the pH to see if it looks right.
 Assuming things seem correct
 add the remaining 10-ml Muriatic acid
 continue aerating until you have blown off the CO2
 once the pH has stabilized
 (remember it will be rising as the CO2 dissipates)
 change out enough water to lower the pH 0.3

It is actually less complicated than it sounds.

Respectfully,
Joe


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Oooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...... Go with RO using one of the many adapters that don't require you to permanently modify your home.

Bathroom Faucet (undersink)









Hose or Laundry Room


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## JoeRoun (Nov 10, 2008)

*Sorry Couldn't Help Myself*

Hi,

There is more than one way to accomplish what we wish&#8230;

I will go away&#8230; No need for cheap alternatives, which preserve that in the water that has value, reduces wasted water.

Respectfully,
Joe


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## JoeRoun (Nov 10, 2008)

*I Am Not Sure I Understand*

Hi,

I really do not have anything against reverse osmosis, RO or deionized water, DI, my answer is because k zeller posted in the DIY Aquarium Project forum of the General Interest Forums and that in the original post k zeller specifically stated RODI is not an option. k zeller's reasons are k zellers, I respect that.

That as a matter of editorial position APC does not want alternatives to buying equipment. DIY is to be limited to plugging it in if an advertiser wants to sell something. APC and the moderators position is at the very least disingenuous.

The general hardness (GH) k zeller apparently experiences seems to average a bit under 11.5-dGH, nothing particularly bad about that, plenty of minerals for the critters. It appears that the carbonate or temporary hardness (KH) runs about 16-dKH, rather on the high side, unless this tank is for African Cichlids. The biggest problem with pH in the 8.2 range especially in tropical tanks is ammonia toxicity.

Without knowing any specifics, for a general (community) planted tank I would recommend getting the Carbonate hardness down to 4-dKH or so, water ends up about pH 7.6.

*Do Not Do This in the Aquarium! Do this in a Well-Ventilated Area; Outside is best.*


3-ml of 32% Muriatic acid (HCL, 10.17-mol/L) per gallon of water.
Add half the acid, mix thoroughly, stir, aerate.
Add the other half of the acid mix thoroughly, stir, aerate.
It really is not complicated, be careful, keep kids and pets away while handling and mixing acid, gloves, eye protection, an apron and common sense are a good idea.

Anyway, good luck, I find APC's editorial policies troubling so I will take my leave and try again in a couple more years.

Respectfully,
Joe


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## rjordan393 (Nov 23, 2012)

Joe,
I think its because there are still fish keepers out there that just open the bottle and pour some in. I warned one of them to follow the directions when handling chemicals.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: I Am Not Sure I Understand*



JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> I really do not have anything against reverse osmosis, RO or deionized water, DI, my answer is because k zeller posted in the DIY Aquarium Project forum of the General Interest Forums and that in the original post k zeller specifically stated RODI is not an option. k zeller's reasons are k zellers, I respect that.
> 
> ...


The user also stated that they did not wish to add chemicals to adjust pH so if you're going to crucify Tugg for veering the discussion away from the original discussion then the same could be said for your suggestion of using muriatic acid, which is super dangerous. At least suggesting something like Seachem's Acid Buffer is a much safer chemical alternative with more consistent results.



k zeller said:


> A non chemical water additive or other alternative would be most desireable. Thanks


No moderators on APC are here to sell anything. We are all volunteers that are here because we love the hobby and have no other agenda other than that. I think Tugg is simply concerned about the suggestion of using muriatic acid because it's so dangerous as you yourself said. He's an experienced hobbyist and he knows that in the long run RO is _the_ best solution to softening water.

This question gets asked all of the time and every time the _best_ solution is still RO/DI or rainwater collection. Both methods provide the user with the most consistent and safe results. There's no magic way to do it. If there were people would have stopped using RO / DI water a long time ago.


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## JoeRoun (Nov 10, 2008)

*My Bad, Please Delete My Posts*

Hi,

My bad, my apologies.

Please delete my posts, if you cannot remove from or add anything to the water that leaves witchcraft and same result, I do not belong here.

Respectfully,
Joe


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## Gilby (Feb 15, 2014)

k zeller said:


> I have anubias, ludwigia, hygro, riccia, and eleocharis on order for the 10g to be setup right now. My 55g native has plants and fish that are locally harvested so it fine because, well, thats what they are used to. Its the other tanks that are more "aquascaped" I am concerned with.


I've grown all these in hard water. Unless you have a specific species that you know needs soft water, or you are looking for fast growth, I wouldn't mess with your water. Much easier to just use whatever comes out of your tap.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

I like JoeRoun's description of the Muratic Acid method. It is not far what what I used to do before getting a RO system. But I must emphasis that all vendors of muratic Acid do not sell it in the same concentrations. If you can get it through a chemical supplier you will find they have higher concentration available than your local hardware store. 

I used to do it in a 45 gallon plastic garbage can. Which I had a circulation pump running in as well as an air stone. My starting pH of tap water was always in the range of 8.3 to 8.5. I would then carefully add roughly 1 ounce of the muratic acid to the water and leave it for at least 24 hours. After 24 hours I would check the pH and it was not as low as I desired it I would add another ounce. If I reached my goal I would let it alone for another 24 hours to assure it had stabilized at the desired level. 

When I did water changes with existing critters in the tank I would never change out more than 20% at one time. However keep in mind that would into tanks that already were close to my target pH or had been there after the prior water change. 

Some other things to consider is if your running soft water to start with it will not take nearly as much acid to drop that pH for you. The first time I tried breeding Liquorish Gourami's I was aiming for a pH in the mid 5's, with very soft water. Using an 80% distilled water mix for the softness the 1 ounce of Acid created a big swing on the pH with a 20 gallon mix at the time. Note pH is the balance between acidic and alkiline ions in the water and if there are less alkiline atoms a change in the acidic ion will have a greater effect on the pH than in harder water.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

*Re: My Bad, Please Delete My Posts*



JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> My bad, my apologies.
> 
> ...


No need for apologies, I have the skin of an armored bear. It takes a lot of effort for me to feel insulted, much less "crucified" 

Joe, you posted a low startup cost alternative that many people may choose to explore. Sharing ideas like this is what the site is about. I'm all for DIY. For example, I doubt you'll ever see me recommend a commercial substrate. If I ever felt pressured to hold back my opinion, I would step down as a mod and possibly leave the site as whole.

I thinks we've given the original poster several workable options.

Most to least expensive:
1) RO (large startup cost, but simplified use)
2) Aquarium packaged chemicals such as Seachem Acid Buffer (supported products with consistent instructions)
3) Industrial Acid/Base chemicals to cause Precipitates and Outgas (equally effective, cost offset by added risks)
4) Natural collection/dilution - Rain water, melted snow
5) Do nothing, acclimatize to the water you have.

Some of these require "chemicals", and there is nothing wrong with that. Everything we add to our aquariums are chemicals, even simple food. As long as it's understood what the chemicals are/do, what's left after the reactions complete, and how to safely handle them; then it isn't a problem.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Picture #1 of water tested in aquarium.

Picture #2 of water tested from tap after 48hr resting period.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

k zeller said:


> Picture #1 of water tested in aquarium.
> 
> Picture #2 of water tested from tap after 48hr resting period.


Looks pretty much the same to me. Can you elaborate on why RO isn't an option for you? I would go with the Seachem Acid Buffer as the next choice.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

AaronT said:


> Looks pretty much the same to me. Can you elaborate on why RO isn't an option for you? I would go with the Seachem Acid Buffer as the next choice.


I am currently living in a temp rental location. I am hoping that in February, or somewhere around there, as me lease will be up, that I will be able to move and be in a more permenent location. For that reason I dont want to install an RO system that would require me to leave it behind. The only other reason AT THIS TIME if for finacial reasons, but that soon will change as I only had a minor setback.


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## Gilby (Feb 15, 2014)

RO units can be connected to a regular garden hose pipe, and with an adapter can be connected to a sink faucet or inline the plumbing under the sink, and it'd be removable without permanent changes to the existing plumbing.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

There is no reason it needs to be a permanent install. The two adapters I listed earlier are screw on connectors. 

In my laundry room its "installed", but I just shoved the waist line into the washer's drain and used a garden hose Y adapter to split the cold water. It can be removed in less than 5 minutes without leaving any sign it was ever there.

You don't have to tap a drain for the waste water, you can run the line into the tub, toilet, or sink and just coil it up when not in use. I read about one guy who has his tapped of the toilet's fill line (same as the sink adapter), and then he has the waist line pressed under the toilet's reservoir lid with 2 90-elbows to hook it in place. The unit just sits on the floor between the cabinet and toilet.


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## JoeRoun (Nov 10, 2008)

*Down & Dirty; Cheap & Easy... Like Me*

Hi,

Okay I just wanted to make sure the pH remained the same.

It means your KH test doesn't go high enough, it is actually about 284-ppm, ~15.85-dKH, call it 16-dKH.

Muriatic acid or slaked lime are the down and dirty ways to reduce KH, cheap as well.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Tugg said:


> There is no reason it needs to be a permanent install. The two adapters I listed earlier are screw on connectors.
> 
> In my laundry room its "installed", but I just shoved the waist line into the washer's drain and used a garden hose Y adapter to split the cold water. It can be removed in less than 5 minutes without leaving any sign it was ever there.
> 
> You don't have to tap a drain for the waste water, you can run the line into the tub, toilet, or sink and just coil it up when not in use. I read about one guy who has his tapped of the toilet's fill line (same as the sink adapter), and then he has the waist line pressed under the toilet's reservoir lid with 2 90-elbows to hook it in place. The unit just sits on the floor between the cabinet and toilet.


I now feel like an idiot. I always thought that these units were meant to be installed into a homes water sysytem, near the water intake to your home prior to water heater and just left there and maintained. All of this information is awesome and very well appreciated. It seems now that I need to start saving my pennies and dimes and get an RO/DI unit. With that in mind, after much reading yesterday, it seems that if an RO/DI system is in use for an aquatic application that there are certain minerals that need to be added back into the water column. Can someone explain what those minerals are, at what frequentness, and at what levels (mg/l, teaspoons/gl, ppm) they need to be added. Most of my tank that this will be necessary will not exceed 20 gallons in size.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Seachem takes care of you there.

GH:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Equilibrium.html

KH:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AlkalineBuffer.html

There are a plenty of DIY recipes to do it yourself with Magnesium Sulfate, Calcium Chloride, Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate, ad nausium. Just make sure when you do that research you're looking for planted tanks and not saltwater. We don't need the levels of chloride and sodium that their mixes may add.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Tugg said:


> Seachem takes care of you there.
> 
> GH:
> http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Equilibrium.html
> ...


These are for the remineralizing or for the initial posted question?


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Those two products are to remineralize. They add Ca, Mg, a bit of K, Na, and the bicarbonate ions. Probably a few others too. They've already blended them into the correct ratio and provides measuring guidelines.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

If you do decide to use RO water definitely consider using the Seachem products that Tugg linked to. My buddy adjusts his RO water with them to KH 3 and GH 6 and has fantastic results with a variety of plants.

This is a great little system to get you started. 
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-value-plus-ro-di-system-75gpd-1.html

You just missed a crazy sale on Black Friday though. It was reduced to $139. Their kits are nice as they come with a variety of adapters for hooking them up.

And as Tugg also said you don't have to permanently hook up the waste line either. You can even save the waste water and water your garden or house plants with it.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

AaronT said:


> And as Tugg also said you don't have to permanently hook up the waste line either. You can even save the waste water and water your garden or house plants with it.


Whgen I had around 100 tanks going at once that is close to what I did. Many African Cichlids love very hard water. The waste water from a RO system was ideal for this.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Aaron, TropTrea and all the others that have contributed to this thread. Thank you all so much. As it is clear idk about this whole RO subject. So I have a few questions based off of responses. 

1. What is waste water. An RO unit looks like a sealed unit that forces water and pulls out minerals impurities/deposits. 

2. Membranes. RO or DI. What is this in reference to?

3. Flush Kit? What is this. Obviously to flush something. Is this like using a toilet? You gotta flush after evertime you use it? 

4. What is the actual condition of the water after it runs though the unit. 

5. Is DI necessary or is RO all that is needed?

6. In a PM I received it was mentioned that water can be stored in a HomeDepot 5gal bucket but only for a short period of time because they are not PCB safe. What is PCB?

Likely I will do the Seachem avenue as I dont feel comfprtable trying to be a chemist and doing the acid idea. That and as I said at one point I would like to keep from doing a chemical that I know can blow me up or burn me if handled incorrectly.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Bulk Reef has a whole series of videos on how RO units work, how to hook them up, maintain them, etc. I'd link you right to them, but at my work youtube is blocked.

Here is their channel at least
http://www.youtube.com/user/BulkReefSupplyCom

Do you have a Firehouse Subs near you? They sell their used pickle containers for $2. They're food grade 5g buckets with a lid. Though you need to fill them with dirt for a while to get the pickle smell out of them.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

k zeller said:


> Aaron, TropTrea and all the others that have contributed to this thread. Thank you all so much. As it is clear idk about this whole RO subject. So I have a few questions based off of responses.
> 
> 1. What is waste water. An RO unit looks like a sealed unit that forces water and pulls out minerals impurities/deposits.
> 
> ...


Answers in green. Also, study the Bulk Reef Supply youtube page.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Tugg said:


> Bulk Reef has a whole series of videos on how RO units work, how to hook them up, maintain them, etc. I'd link you right to them, but at my work youtube is blocked.
> 
> Here is their channel at least
> http://www.youtube.com/user/BulkReefSupplyCom
> ...


lol Thanks Tugg


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

AaronT said:


> Answers in green. Also, study the Bulk Reef Supply youtube page.


Thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

Just to expand for completeness.

In short, a flush kit is a bypass for the flow restrictor in order to flush sediment off the RO membrane.

After the water leaves the carbon stage, it goes through the RO membrane. To ensure you have a high degree of pressure here there is a "flow restrictor" installed after the membrane. This is typically an extremely thin bit of hose cut to a specific length allowing a set amount of water to flow through it. (3-4 times what the RO membrane is rated for). The flush kit provides a valve controlled bypass of the flow restrictor. This allows the maximium flow of water over the membrane, cleaning off the scaled Calcium and minerals that will build up with time. It's good practice to flush your membrane after each use. If you're making a LOT of water, then you should periodically flush it during use.

Also... the RO stage's product water will be the 5-20ppm. If you have a DI stage it will then be 0ppm. The DI resin adsorbs the remaining ions and exchanges them with H+ and OH-, which is just water. Its good to have an installed dual probe TDS meter. Then you can monitor your RO water, and also the DI. If either of them take a significant jump in their readings, you know it's time to replace that part.

RO water should be fine. Having a DI stage is just some added insurance that the Cu is ALL gone for my inverts. Plus I'm a fan of overkill. I took two basic 4 stage units and replumbed them for a massive 7 stage unit.

5 micron sediment
1 micron sediment
Carbon
Carbon
RO (I'm currently using one membrane, but when I replace it I'll get two and run the waste from the first one, into the second.)
DI
DI


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Tugg said:


> RO water should be fine. Having a DI stage is just some added insurance that the Cu is ALL gone for my inverts. Plus I'm a fan of overkill. I took two basic 4 stage units and replumbed them for a massive 7 stage unit.
> 
> 5 micron sediment
> 1 micron sediment
> ...


Basic? Can you define this. I have a local plumbing store that has a lot of seperate parts. Im wondering if I can essentially design one of my own to fit my cabinet. I found some pics of people that have them in there display cabinet and attach a hose when it needs to be used. Since its for my "fish stuff" I figured that would be a good location for it and possibly modify the typical linear design and make it more 2 over 2 or something.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

K Zeller,
Just curious as to if you received my reply to your message?
~Grizz


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Grizzle Fish said:


> K Zeller,
> Just curious as to if you received my reply to your message?
> ~Grizz


I did. And I thank you very much. Sorry I didnt let you know...:hail:


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

k zeller said:


> Basic? Can you define this. I have a local plumbing store that has a lot of seperate parts. Im wondering if I can essentially design one of my own to fit my cabinet. I found some pics of people that have them in there display cabinet and attach a hose when it needs to be used. Since its for my "fish stuff" I figured that would be a good location for it and possibly modify the typical linear design and make it more 2 over 2 or something.


Basic: 4 stages (sediment,carbon,RO,DI), no assesories (pressure gauge, TDS meter, bypass, auto shut-off)

From everything I've learned and shopped, don't DIY. Just save some cash and get a Bulk Reef Supply made one. Don't skimp and it will last a lifetime.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

k zeller said:


> I did. And I thank you very much. Sorry I didnt let you know...:hail:


Hi k zeller,
Cool. I spent an hour writing that so I am indeed glad that you read it. I want to start from the beginning of your post here and read all of the threads that you generated. Seems quite active. 

The one thing I forgot to provide you were the results I obtain when dosing with Seachem Replenish. Replenish will raise your GH without affecting your KH. The results to follow are how the following doses (in Milliliters) affects 5 gallons of my RO water. Your mileage may vary.

Note: If you divide a ppm amount by 17.9 you will get the associated dKH value and vise-versa (if you multiply that result). Generally you should use dKH values for KH and ppm for GH (for clarity), but people use both for both a lot of the time, so the conversion can come in handy if you are familiar with reading them a certain way but read articles when the opposite has been used.

Ok, here you go:
# Milliliters of Replenish raises GH of my RO water by #ppm:

1mL of Replenish to 5 gallons RO water = 35.8 ppm
2mL = 53.7
3mL = 71.6
4mL = 89.5
5mL = 107.4
6mL = 125.3
7mL = 143.2

One thing I learned from computer support forums (I'm a tech), is that when you provide steps for an advanced solution to someone who is not yet advanced in that field, you will see other forum members jump in and passionately warn that following that information is a really really bad idea for you to do. They can be right too as the more advanced a solution becomes, the more difficult it is to execute, and the possibility for making errors increases.

I will be up front and tell you that I have made errors, probably most will, but if I had never began learning to manage water chemistry because someone, someone educated, had warned me that it was a bad idea, I would not have learned what I now know. The rub here is that we are not dealing with computers, we are dealing with life. If you make a big mistake in this game you will kill your pets. If you are like me then that will stay with you forever and really suck bigtime. You have to look into yourself and decide that all things considered if you are up for the challenge and if you need to do what you are planning to do.

You should really read all you can about managing aquarium water chemistry, and know things such as that Seachem Alkaline buffer will immediately raise your pH, but it also will continue to dissolve, causing your KH will rise even more for a few days after you add your treated water into your aquarium. If you decide to go for it, then make gradual small changes and test your water parameters every day until you get really dialed in to the how-to. Once you are, if you make any changes to a stable environment, go back to testing every day for at least a couple of weeks.

Best of skill,
~Grizz


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

It may seem that I ask a lot of stupid questions but like you said Grizz, I dont want to kill my pets. I was able to get some food grade 5g buckets from one of the grocery stores yesterday for water storage. I plan to save some money and get the RO unit. This will take some time but it seems that it is the best option for what I am seeking. I need to get a TDS meter and a pH meter first tho. (I relate this to hunting. Why buy the rifle first if you cant, or should i say wont, hunt with it before you have the scope.) Im so lame that I ask for things like that for Christmas (like 90% of my wanted is for aquascaping stuff). Having the ablilty to store RO water and modify its perameters over an elongated period of time will aid in getting it right, I hope. Then I can store it and have it ready when I need it. This is possible right? Storing water after it has inoculated to modifications?


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Does the adjustment of pH alone affect GH/KH.


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## Tugg (Jul 28, 2013)

All three are related. Gh ions are the cation of a mineral, the kh Is the anion. Kh is a carbonate measurement, but your carbonates change form as the pH shifts. If the pH rises too high, the bicarbonate (HCO3) becomes carbonate (CO3). This would cause GH minerals to "undisolve" and precipitate out of the water. If ph drops (a normal thing since most biological process create acids) then CO3 become HCO3, and the HCO3 will become CO2 and H2O.

If you aren't regular with your water changes, with time the water will lose all the kh as CO2 and then the pH will crash and drop to the low 6s and 5s... Then bad stuff happens. Plants can't take up nutrients and the nitrifying bacteria can't do their thing. Soon fish start gasping and dying.

In short, keep them constant with regular water changes.


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

Tugg said:


> All three are related. Gh ions are the cation of a mineral, the kh Is the anion. Kh is a carbonate measurement, but your carbonates change form as the pH shifts. If the pH rises too high, the bicarbonate (HCO3) becomes carbonate (CO3). This would cause GH minerals to "undisolve" and precipitate out of the water. If ph drops (a normal thing since most biological process create acids) then CO3 become HCO3, and the HCO3 will become CO2 and H2O.
> 
> If you aren't regular with your water changes, with time the water will lose all the kh as CO2 and then the pH will crash and drop to the low 6s and 5s... Then bad stuff happens. Plants can't take up nutrients and the nitrifying bacteria can't do their thing. Soon fish start gasping and dying.
> 
> In short, keep them constant with regular water changes.


Makes sense. So if I get plants from a fellow hobbyist from the sale forum should I be worried that they will have issues due to the fact that I currently have less than desireable growing conditions? I still feel a little confused. The seachem products I interpret as being a post RO buffer. Can these be used in the crappy conditions I have, minus RO and still reach same plant growth conditions?


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

k zeller said:


> Makes sense. So if I get plants from a fellow hobbyist from the sale forum should I be worried that they will have issues due to the fact that I currently have less than desireable growing conditions? I still feel a little confused. The seachem products I interpret as being a post RO buffer. Can these be used in the crappy conditions I have, minus RO and still reach same plant growth conditions?


Hello k zeller,
Just following up on your post. First off, I'm sure that there are a lot of people having success with water parameters such as yours. You can find plants and fish that do well in harder water with a higher pH, and even ones not specifically designated as such can do fine with your parameters as long as you are prompt on your maintenance and keep things stable. As long as you treat the water to remove chlorine/chloramines, metals and such with a product such as Prime you should be fine.

An alternative to that is to use a technique referred to as cutting, where you dilute your tap water with RO water to achieve the general water parameters you are after. That would be a lot easier for ya then trying to buffer it with chemicals. Once you figure the correct water mix for your goal you can pretty much just go with that recipe as long as you test to make sure your tap water hasn't changed. Just make sure to let the water sit for a day before you do anything with it to allow it to stabilize.

There are also natural ways of lowering your pH such as the makeup of your substrate, driftwood, etc. You will probably have a much easier go of it if you just build around what you have coming out of your tap and stay away from lower pH type fish.

~Grizz


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## k zeller (Oct 9, 2014)

So I was on the hunt for a special ointment for my 2yr old daughter(dont ask why). I stubled onto an organic grocery store in my area. In said orcanic grocery store was an RO water dispenser. 20 CENTS A GALLON!!! 
So I then called the local sub shop. "Do you guys buy your pickles in boxes or buckets?" "We buy them in 6 gallon buckets and we go through about one or so a week, would you like one?" "Well if it isnt a big deal I would like to ask for three." 
I got my three pickle buckets yesterday, took them home, cleaned them thouroughly with H2O2, went to said organic grocery store and filled all 3 buckets and spent a total of $3.20 for just over 15 gallons of water. I can now do water changes twice a week to allow my aquarium to cycle and hopefully get rid of my algae bloom then get this thing off the road. I will be starting a journal hopefully in the next week or so. I would like to thank everyone that has helped me and contributed to this thread. Everyones knowledge is greatly appreciated.


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## TropTrea (Jan 10, 2014)

k zeller said:


> It may seem that I ask a lot of stupid questions but like you said Grizz, I dont want to kill my pets. I was able to get some food grade 5g buckets from one of the grocery stores yesterday for water storage. I plan to save some money and get the RO unit. This will take some time but it seems that it is the best option for what I am seeking.


IKf your serious about the hobby I think it a RO System is one of the best investments someone can make.



k zeller said:


> I need to get a TDS meter and a pH meter first tho.


In the long run they can save you time and money when your checking the water paremeters repeatedly over multiple tanks. But they can be investment for someone with only a few tank compared to getting simple low cost test kits. You can always use the test kits untill you saved up enough for the meters.



k zeller said:


> (I relate this to hunting. Why buy the rifle first if you cant, or should i say wont, hunt with it before you have the scope.)


I have hunted for year and taken game at up to 400 yards. I never used a scope for hunting just iron sights. Scopes often fog up from the cold and become useless.



k zeller said:


> Im so lame that I ask for things like that for Christmas (like 90% of my wanted is for aquascaping stuff). Having the ablilty to store RO water and modify its perameters over an elongated period of time will aid in getting it right, I hope. Then I can store it and have it ready when I need it. This is possible right? Storing water after it has in oculated to modifications?


I think we all put Aquatic items on our wish list. I was surprised this year that I got a number of the smaller item under the tree this year.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Tugg said:


> ...the kh as CO2 and then the pH...


Hello Tugg,
I wanted to thank you for your posts throughout this thread as they have helped clarify some things for me regarding water chemistry, and have contributed to the stability of my water parameters. You did a great job of breaking things down into a concise explanation.

Thanks a bunch, :happy:
~Grizz


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

Here's an organic method. It will, however, tint your water with harmless tannins.

http://www.thetechden.com.au/Eheim_EHFI_Torf_Peat_Pellet_1_Liter_p/eh2511051.htm


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