# A Natural planted tank for someone with an illness



## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Hi guys my names nick and for the past four years I've suffered from a neurological disorder that makes me fatigued and can cause me to pass out. While luckily its something treatable and capable of diminishing by one's mid twenties i find myself at the present time forced to relinquish my attendance in school and social situations. I am in need of some stimulation mentally, visually, but not physically as that what exacerbates my symptoms. I am quite the novice when it comes to the Walstad method and will of course buy her book simply because i feel i should support the person from whom i derive such methods. My reason for even mentioning my illness is to give you an idea of why i am posting this, i wish to have a planted aquarium i however fear the maintenance and *will of course refrain from getting one should it prove too difficult as i am against having the fish suffer simply for my personal enjoyment. *
I am wondering if in prescribing to the Walstad method will i truly have low maintenance and could i make some minor changes and still keep it as a walstad aquarium? 
These changes well maybe not being minor still make me curious if i could add them:
-2 wpg Ho lights 
-an eheim 2028 canister filter or fluval fx5 depending on the budget
-Fluval Excel daily or weekly or as needed
-Air stone on a reverse daylight cycle to prevent suffocation (Oxygen depletion during the time when plants need oxygen)

Could these plants exist in a walstad tank and what sort of stocking would be required in a 92 gallon corner?
Low to Moderate Lighting;
Foreground:
-Dwarf Hairgrass 
Mid-Ground:
-Temple, Narrow leaf 
-Dwarf Sagittaria 
-Cryptocoryne 
-Java Fern 
-Java Moss 
Backround:
-Anacharis
-Hornwort 
-Wisteria

As far as stocking so far i have this in mind:
Fish Species:
Tetra:
-6-18 True Rummynose Tetra [$1.99] (2")
AND
-1-5(6) Thick Lipped Gourami {Colisa Labiosa} {Trichogaster labiosus}(4") 
OR
-1-5Madagascan Rainbow (Bedotia gaeyi) (6") [$11.99]

Invertebrates:
-1-8 Japonica Amano Shrimp [$2.49] (2")

Possible Additons )When i am well unless i need to overstock lol):
-2-6 Gold Neon Tetra [$2.99] (1 1/2")
-2-5 Neon Blue Dwarf Gourami [$9.99] (2")
-6-15 Cardinal Tetra [$2.29] (2")
-2-8 Glowlight tetra [$1.49] (2")

I'm really i guess afraid that something like this sounds too good to be true and while i do believe Miss Walstad is an intelligent and talented aquarist i once again fear my fish suffering from my desire for low maintenance...If all of you far more experienced aquarists could share your insights i would most deeply appreciated it.
Sorry for such a long thread lol
-Nick


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## mkiiisupradude (Nov 27, 2010)

I just started the npt style about 2 months ago and I have only done a few 20% changes, not because testing dictated but because i was diluting tannins from my driftwood. I think its great just be aware that the more light there is the more carbon and ferts your plants will need to grow. I havnt run into this but from what I understand the point of el natural is to ensure most of that doesnt run out for years. lacking carbon will just slow growth I think and your fish and fish food will be what provides it. then just watch for deficiencies, trim stuff back when you need to and change the water when it starts to smell. 

as for the air stone, those can move a good bit of water around the tank so that may be all you need to circulate it if well placed. 

for filters, I am starting to see the beauty of this method. over filter and the plants starve. I have a smallish filter for my tank and it was enough to be a difference in how the plants were doing.

I wouldnt even consider myself a novice but I thought Id share with you what Ive found so far.
overall, 90% easier to maintain than my other tank


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

mkiiisupradude said:


> I just started the npt style about 2 months ago and I have only done a few 20% changes, not because testing dictated but because i was diluting tannins from my driftwood. I think its great just be aware that the more light there is the more carbon and ferts your plants will need to grow. I havnt run into this but from what I understand the point of el natural is to ensure most of that doesnt run out for years. lacking carbon will just slow growth I think and your fish and fish food will be what provides it. then just watch for deficiencies, trim stuff back when you need to and change the water when it starts to smell.
> 
> as for the air stone, those can move a good bit of water around the tank so that may be all you need to circulate it if well placed.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your reply, i'm considering this method as well i believe from what ive read and what your illustrating here flourish excel would not be needed..possibly i would dose fertilizers 1xweek like tom barr has suggested in some of his works. My biggest concern is oxygen depletion and how should i stock the tank...should a 92 gallon be severly understocked in order to keep it low maintenance or will it need to be closer to the max bio load to provide plants with an adequate source of ammonia and other choice nutrients
once again i thank you for your reply and hope to hear from you and others again


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## Tanan (Mar 11, 2009)

To answer your concern over oxygen depeletion let me describe my experience.
I had a 35G fully planted NPT (mineralized soil),and even in summers with a temp of 31C and fully stocked tank.There wasnt a thing as oxygen depletion my vals bubbles frequently even though that it was a low light(1.5 WPG fluorescent tank).
Excel ll always help the plants but fertilizing is something thats totally I would consider out of NPT method.
The whole point of the NPT is to keep it as close to simple as possible.Dosing would only push it to an high maintenance tank,where you ll need to do frequent pruning,keeping algae at bay,testing water religiously etc.
I ve gone under stock as well as over stock without a filter and NPT handled both.
What you need to do is find the balance with plant growth and stocking.An overly stock tank with just slow growers is not going to cope with all the bio load.
What I do is when I m under stocking I just keep a few fast growing plants.
And when I m overstocking,I fill the tank with all the fast growing plants I could fit in.


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Tanan said:


> To answer your concern over oxygen depeletion let me describe my experience.
> I had a 35G fully planted NPT (mineralized soil),and even in summers with a temp of 31C and fully stocked tank.There wasnt a thing as oxygen depletion my vals bubbles frequently even though that it was a low light(1.5 WPG fluorescent tank).
> Excel ll always help the plants but fertilizing is something thats totally I would consider out of NPT method.
> The whole point of the NPT is to keep it as close to simple as possible.Dosing would only push it to an high maintenance tank,where you ll need to do frequent pruning,keeping algae at bay,testing water religiously etc.
> ...


So the dosing is not somethign you would consider in small amounts even on a bi-weekly basis? i'm concerned about the eventual nutrient depletion in the soil which i am also wondering if Aqua soil is suitable for this or if i must use top soil thanks very much for your reply i look forward to hearing more of this forum's opinions


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Oh and while i may sound ignorant asking this what are "Vals"? is this the plant Vallisneria spiralis or Corkscrew Val?
thanks again,
-Nick


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes thats what they mean by vals.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Nick, you can do even less maintenance than you think.

First, forget about the Excel and fertilizers. A newly set-up Walstad tank gets CO2 and nutrients from the break down of the soil. After the tank has been up and running for 6 to 12 months you could add fertilizers IF you see symptoms of defficiencies.

Second, don't worry about O2 levels. Your filter will provide enough water circulation for gas exchange at night. The air stone is unecessary.

Third, 2 WPG of T-5 HO light might be too much. The WPG rule really doesn't apply to the new, more efficient light sources. If you want to use the T-5 HO lights, you might try 2 tubes and have them switched separately, and put both of them on timers. That way you have a lot of flexibility in light intensity and photo period. Too much light on an El Natural can lead to algae problems. Lighting is one subject on which Diana's book is not up-to-date.

Fourth, a person with a disability may find water changes to be the most difficult part of maintenance. Those buckets are heavy! Look at one of the drain/fill devices like the Python so you can do water changes with less physical effort.

Walstad tanks do not require as many water changes as other methods. But when you first set up the tank it may be necessary to do weekly partial changes until the system settles down. I found myself doing lots of water changes at first, not because of water quality problems, but because my wood and soil leached a lot of tanins into the water. These are not harmful (and may be beneficial), but I didn't like the way they looked.

Light fish stocking levels will cause fewer problems and less maintenance. You fish list sounds very reasonable. It is always better to add fish a few at a time to let the system adjust.

One important point: plant heavily right at the start! Dense planting is what gives a Walstad tank its stability and low maintenance characteristics. If necessary, use cheap floating and stem plants at first, even if you plan to take them out later as the slower growing species mature.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

--Michael


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Michael said:


> Nick, you can do even less maintenance than you think.
> 
> First, forget about the Excel and fertilizers. A newly set-up Walstad tank gets CO2 and nutrients from the break down of the soil. After the tank has been up and running for 6 to 12 months you could add fertilizers IF you see symptoms of defficiencies.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your reply, and will the tannis ever clear up or will i continually have to do water changes. Is there anyway to short that process like letting it sit for a while or boiling it or will that take away its nutritional value. And is topsoil the best? Could Ada Aqua soil be used to greater effect? or something like Eco-complete or a mixture? Also what would be the best lighting for a low tech tank like this?
thanks again for your reply 
p.s i will definitely buy up as many plants as i can! i was also wondering if i could still attempt a fishless cycle for my filter even if its unnecessary. would the biological portion of the filter starve the plants?


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## mfgann (Nov 10, 2010)

Infulgeo said:


> Thank you so much for your reply, and will the tannis ever clear up or will i continually have to do water changes. Is there anyway to short that process like letting it sit for a while or boiling it or will that take away its nutritional value. And is topsoil the best? Could Ada Aqua soil be used to greater effect? or something like Eco-complete or a mixture? Also what would be the best lighting for a low tech tank like this?
> thanks again for your reply
> p.s i will definitely buy up as many plants as i can! i was also wondering if i could still attempt a fishless cycle for my filter even if its unnecessary. would the biological portion of the filter starve the plants?


The tannins will clear up over a month or two. You can accelerate the process by boiling it in dechlorinated water, and then let it soak in dechlorinated water for a few days. Or you could just presoak it a few months in a bucket of dechlorinated water. I'm doing that with a new chunk of mopani driftwood right now.

Generally the soil recommended here is the cheapest topsoil with no additives you can find. It needs to look like dirt, not sand and bark. One common pick that is easier to find is Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix. Diana Walstad used in an article she wrote about a mini shrimp tank (hoping to get the stuff I need for that from santa this year myself).

Look for some plants like the vals, anacharis, hornwort (though it can get messy if it drops needles), or wisteria. Those will grow in fast.. really fast. I also have some duckweed in it as a surface plant.


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

mfgann said:


> The tannins will clear up over a month or two. You can accelerate the process by boiling it in dechlorinated water, and then let it soak in dechlorinated water for a few days. Or you could just presoak it a few months in a bucket of dechlorinated water. I'm doing that with a new chunk of mopani driftwood right now.
> 
> Generally the soil recommended here is the cheapest topsoil with no additives you can find. It needs to look like dirt, not sand and bark. One common pick that is easier to find is Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix. Diana Walstad used in an article she wrote about a mini shrimp tank (hoping to get the stuff I need for that from santa this year myself).
> 
> Look for some plants like the vals, anacharis, hornwort (though it can get messy if it drops needles), or wisteria. Those will grow in fast.. really fast. I also have some duckweed in it as a surface plant.


Hornwort drops needles? So besides that vals anacharis and wisteria would be some that should exist in larger quantity than those that are slower growers, and i am uncomfortable with certain aspects of the top soil approach due to the nature of the nh4 a and urea problems. I was curious idk if i asked this already but could a mixture of leodartite, aqua soil, and onyx sand be an optimal mix?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I think most of the tanins in my original tank came from the Miracle Gro Organic Choice potting mix, not the driftwood. A way to get around this is to soak the soil in water, pour off the water and floaters from the surface, and repeat several times. I've does this for subsequent set-ups, and had very little tanin in the water.

I think you are making the substrate selection more complicated than it needs to be. MGOC or some other generic top soil without fertilizers with an inert cap of gravel will work very well and are inexpensive. Not to say any thing bad about AquaSoil, EcoComplete, or any of the other proprietary substrates, but ingredients are not usually listed for patent and marketing purposes. I like to know what is actually going into the substrate. MGOC has an ingredients list and nutrient analysis on the bag.

On the hornwort, it is a true floating plant with no roots and does not grow attached to the substrate, or anything else. So if it deteriorates or drops needles, it is easy to remove and clean up. This makes it ideal as a temporary addition for a new tank to utilize excess nutrients. It also chemically inhibits the growth of some types of algae.

Another very fast growing stem plant that has done very well for me is _Hygrophila polysperma _'Sunset'. This one does root strongly into the substrate. It can be a permant mid-ground or background plant.

In an El Natural, filters are primarily for mechanical removal of particles, and water circulation. We do not rely on them for bio-filtration. Healthy, growing plants cycle the tank, and water circulation helps this process. Additional bio-filtration does not harm the plants, but it is not really needed. Of course, it is absolutely necessary in tanks with lots of fish and no plants.

Much of this will be clearer after you read Walstad's book. In essence her method uses soil to create optimal conditions for plants, and uses plants to maintain water quality. Fish, their wastes, and fish food supply additional nutrients that gradually replace nutrients provided by soil in a new tank. Yeah, at first I couldn't believe it is this simple either. But it is!

--Michael


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Michael said:


> I think most of the tanins in my original tank came from the Miracle Gro Organic Choice potting mix, not the driftwood. A way to get around this is to soak the soil in water, pour off the water and floaters from the surface, and repeat several times. I've does this for subsequent set-ups, and had very little tanin in the water.
> 
> I think you are making the substrate selection more complicated than it needs to be. MGOC or some other generic top soil without fertilizers with an inert cap of gravel will work very well and are inexpensive. Not to say any thing bad about AquaSoil, EcoComplete, or any of the other proprietary substrates, but ingredients are not usually listed for patent and marketing purposes. I like to know what is actually going into the substrate. MGOC has an ingredients list and nutrient analysis on the bag.
> 
> ...


Another two questions lol 1) Can a wet dry filter be used? (Tom barr has made some interesting arguments/experiments about the levelized o2 level with a slight reduction of co2 being an insignificant drawback when compared to the health of the fish.) 2.) Can a fishless cycle still be performed for the filter and can the soil be seeded with something like One And Only Nitrifying Bacteria by Dr Tim's Aquatics? 
ok so that was three questions :der:


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## mfgann (Nov 10, 2010)

Infulgeo said:


> Another two questions lol 1) Can a wet dry filter be used? (Tom barr has made some interesting arguments/experiments about the levelized o2 level with a slight reduction of co2 being an insignificant drawback when compared to the health of the fish.) 2.) Can a fishless cycle still be performed for the filter and can the soil be seeded with something like One And Only Nitrifying Bacteria by Dr Tim's Aquatics?
> ok so that was three questions :der:


1) I haven't used one, so I'll let more experienced minds weigh in, but I think it is not in the spirit of the NPT style. Really, many people seem to run hybrids of NPTs due to lots of experience with traditional tanks, and not wanting to let go of all the rules and equipment we've developed over the years. The idea of NPT is a minimalistic environment where the plants handle the filtration.

2) Yes and yes.. though you may not notice the ammonia and nitrate levels behaving as expected. The plants will soak up ammonia, and when the bacteria to convert those colonize, the plants will move to soaking up nitrates. It is one of the things that makes this sort of tank so interesting. It is safer for the fish, and still relatively low-maintenance.

Really, based on what I know all you need is dirt, small gravel to hold the dirt down and look pretty, lots of plants, a heater, 2-3W per gallon florescent light around 6500K, and maybe something to cause some water movement. Oh yeah.. and some water and fish 

Good luck!


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

mfgann said:


> 1) I haven't used one, so I'll let more experienced minds weigh in, but I think it is not in the spirit of the NPT style. Really, many people seem to run hybrids of NPTs due to lots of experience with traditional tanks, and not wanting to let go of all the rules and equipment we've developed over the years. The idea of NPT is a minimalistic environment where the plants handle the filtration.
> 
> 2) Yes and yes.. though you may not notice the ammonia and nitrate levels behaving as expected. The plants will soak up ammonia, and when the bacteria to convert those colonize, the plants will move to soaking up nitrates. It is one of the things that makes this sort of tank so interesting. It is safer for the fish, and still relatively low-maintenance.
> 
> ...


So the plants really do take care of the filtration especially if i plant heavily from the get go? I'm thinking adding the filter for water movement and just in case some plants die or can't get some of the bigger metals that would make it still low tech and low maintenance like an npt right?
thanks again for the reply,
-Nick


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## mfgann (Nov 10, 2010)

Infulgeo said:


> So the plants really do take care of the filtration especially if i plant heavily from the get go? I'm thinking adding the filter for water movement and just in case some plants die or can't get some of the bigger metals that would make it still low tech and low maintenance like an npt right?
> thanks again for the reply,
> -Nick


Well, thats what I'm told. I've only just started down the path myself, but the plants are coming along beautifully. The only danger in a filter is that too much surface agitation can cause a loss of CO2, so many stick to very gentle filters or none at all. Really most of my knowledge so far is from lurking.. but so far everything I've put to test has been working great. I've had my tank up a little over a month with red cherry shrimp, a couple of otos, and I just added a couple of kuhli loaches. I've lost one shrimp so far, that I can tell, and everyone is very active.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"So the plants really do take care of the filtration especially if i plant heavily from the get go?"

yes, Yes, YES!

"I'm thinking adding the filter for water movement and just in case some plants die or can't get some of the bigger metals that would make it still low tech and low maintenance like an npt right?"

Yes again. I run AquaClear HOB filters on my tanks for water movement and mechanical filtration. I don't put any carbon or bio-media in the filters, just some coarse filter foam and polyester filter floss to catch particles. I keep the water level high enough so that the return flow drops smoothly into the tank with no splash or free-falling water. This way CO2 loss is kept to a minimum. I also use a power head in my larger tank to move the water around at the bottom.

Water circulation is important. Diana Walstad uses power heads instead of filters in most of her tanks.


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

so maybe a wet dry with and a power head might be something to think about as well


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Michael said:


> I think most of the tanins in my original tank came from the Miracle Gro Organic Choice potting mix, not the driftwood. A way to get around this is to soak the soil in water, pour off the water and floaters from the surface, and repeat several times. I've does this for subsequent set-ups, and had very little tanin in the water.
> 
> I think you are making the substrate selection more complicated than it needs to be. MGOC or some other generic top soil without fertilizers with an inert cap of gravel will work very well and are inexpensive. Not to say any thing bad about AquaSoil, EcoComplete, or any of the other proprietary substrates, but ingredients are not usually listed for patent and marketing purposes. I like to know what is actually going into the substrate. MGOC has an ingredients list and nutrient analysis on the bag.
> 
> ...


i've been looking online and lots of people are saying shipping Hygrophila polysperma is now illegal how did you get yours??


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## mfgann (Nov 10, 2010)

Infulgeo said:


> i've been looking online and lots of people are saying shipping Hygrophila polysperma is now illegal how did you get yours??


I got mine when I ordered some red cherry shrimp and he included clippings of some good plants with it.

There are some plants that are banned for sale in some states because they're highly invasive species (meaning it grows really well). I am very against invasive species, being from a kudzu-ridden area of the south, but as long as you dispose of it properly it shouldn't get loose. Just don't "set it free" or just toss the clippings straight in the garbage.

You can always find someone on aquabid, ebay, or for sale in the forum. If nothing else, scroll down to the "for sale" forum and announce "WTB hygrophilia polyspermia". Heck, I'd give you a clipping for the cost of postage if mine was grown in a little more. My tank still isn't quite at a regular trimming phase yet.


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

mfgann said:


> I got mine when I ordered some red cherry shrimp and he included clippings of some good plants with it.
> 
> There are some plants that are banned for sale in some states because they're highly invasive species (meaning it grows really well). I am very against invasive species, being from a kudzu-ridden area of the south, but as long as you dispose of it properly it shouldn't get loose. Just don't "set it free" or just toss the clippings straight in the garbage.
> 
> You can always find someone on aquabid, ebay, or for sale in the forum. If nothing else, scroll down to the "for sale" forum and announce "WTB hygrophilia polyspermia". Heck, I'd give you a clipping for the cost of postage if mine was grown in a little more. My tank still isn't quite at a regular trimming phase yet.


lol thanks i'll have to check around, and is your tank currently a low tech npt style one?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

My _H. polysperma _came from a plant swap at our local club. It is not prohibited in Texas (which is pretty strict on invasive aquatics) and not even listed in the data base of suspected invasive exotics for the state. I believe it is regularly sold in retail stores here.

I agree whole-heartedly with prohibition of invasive exotic species.


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## Infulgeo (Nov 29, 2010)

Michael said:


> My _H. polysperma _came from a plant swap at our local club. It is not prohibited in Texas (which is pretty strict on invasive aquatics) and not even listed in the data base of suspected invasive exotics for the state. I believe it is regularly sold in retail stores here.
> 
> I agree whole-heartedly with prohibition of invasive exotic species.


I feel that as long as i'm responsible i should be able to have H. Polysperma in my aquarium no?
I'm also wondering if one of you guys could answer, since this is a corner aquarium will reflectors provide the necessary light spread? I've never used reflectors so i am unsure where to eve get them lol


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