# 10 gallon experiment



## nkambae (Nov 6, 2007)

I have a 10 gallon npt set up that is doing pretty well but I'm gonna throw a monkey wrench into the mix and redo my lighting just for giggles and grins. I've never been happy with the way my light throws most of the light into the center and doesn't illuminate the entire tank very well. Add to this my recent fascination with and curiosity about LED technology and we have the beginning of an experiment.

Soooo, I just ordered a Current Powerbrite 10,000 K power unit and 2 10,000 K link units to put on top of my ten gallon. This will give me 12 watts (should be about 600 lumens) of 10,000 K LED's on top of my tank. It may be too much light because of the intensity of the LED's or maybe not. We shall see.

I'm excited to be able to start playing with the next generation of lighting for aquaria. The Solaris and PFO light fixtures are just too spendy for me right now. The Current fixtures are more reasonably priced. It will be interesting to see how the LED's grow plants and algae. I know they will grow corals so they should grow plants just fine.

Is anyone else using LED's for their planted tanks? Any thoughts or ideas?

10 gallon with a 27 watt 6500 K desk lamp on for 12 hours
sponge filter
1 1/2" black dirt from a N. Dakota farm field capped with 1" 3mm red flint gravel
ferts: small pinch K2SO4 3 times per week
flora: Sag. subulata, red lotus, glosso, java fern, Bacopa monnieri, C. wendti, Rotala indica, Anubias nana, star grass, frogbit
fauna: 6 C. pymgaeus, 1 pr N. transvestitus, 1 C. regani (juvenile)

The first image is 24 hours after I set up the ten gallon in November and the second is about two weeks ago which was just before I planted the glosso.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/nkambae/IMGP0436.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/nkambae/IMGP0620.jpg

Good luck to all.

stu


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nkambae said:


> small pinch K2SO4 3 times per week


You've got the soil, you've got the lighting, and you've got the plants. But you're ruining it all by adding fertilizers. Please don't add K2SO4 to your tank. Fishfood is a much better fertilizer.

That "small pinch" of K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) could be slowly killing this tank. Soil bacteria convert sulfates (SO4) to H2S, which is highly toxic to plant roots (my book, p.133). That could be why you're not getting better plant growth in this tank.

Don't be satisfied until this tank is packed with plants!


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## nkambae (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks Diana. I started adding the K2SO4 as I was seeing some holes in some of my Lotus and Crypt leaves which led me to believe I might have a slight potassium deficiency. Since I began adding the K2SO4, my leaves are unholy (! - sorry, couldn't resist). H2S is hydrogen sulfide, correct? No thanks... might as well drop a rotten egg in there! I think My food levels are OK as I have a fairly thick level of mulm. Tho' I might benefit from a bit more circulation to mitigate the mulm build up and then I could up my feeding levels and stop the potassium supplement. anyone know of a good nano powerhead? Airstone? Or perhaps there is a better potassium supplement I could be using. I dunno... I'm open to suggestions.

Are you (or anyone else) using any LED's at this point? Maybe this should go over in the lighting forum but I choose el natural because... well, it is an npt. I'll get some more pics as soon as the lights get here. 

Oh, and rest assured that I will continue planting until the tank is packed with plants! I'm adding some more R. indica and Bacopa tonight. My S. subulata is spreading out rather nicely. My glosso is more vertical than I would like but maybe with the addition of the new lighting, it will flatten out again. I have to be careful with the lights tho', I don't want to have to start adding CO2 as that would defeat what I am trying to do with the npt. Thanks again.

stu


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nkambae said:


> Or perhaps there is a better potassium supplement I could be using.
> stu


I would use KCl (Potassium chloride). You can buy it in grocery stores as a "salt substitute". It is a substitute for ordinary salt (Sodium chloride) for those people who are trying to reduce their sodium intake.

Potassium sulfate may work fine in tanks with gravel/mineral/clay substrates. But in NPTs with potting soil and organic soils, sulfates can cause major problems. The sulfates diffuse into the organic soil layer where bacteria convert the sulfates to H2S. The H2S kills roots and strongly inhibits plant growth.

Thanks for letting us know about potassium additions helping with holes in the leaves. Those with softwater, take note!


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## nkambae (Nov 6, 2007)

Good idea on the KCl. I'll give that a go!

stu


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

dwalstad said:


> I would use KCl (Potassium chloride). You can buy it in grocery stores as a "salt substitute". It is a substitute for ordinary salt (Sodium chloride) for those people who are trying to reduce their sodium intake.
> 
> Potassium sulfate may work fine in tanks with gravel/mineral/clay substrates. But in NPTs with potting soil and organic soils, sulfates can cause major problems. The sulfates diffuse into the organic soil layer where bacteria convert the sulfates to H2S. The H2S kills roots and strongly inhibits plant growth.
> 
> Thanks for letting us know about potassium additions helping with holes in the leaves. Those with softwater, take note!


So, that rules out gypsum as a calcium suplement as well... (CaSO4)

What other anions are usable? Does one have to worry about Cl build up?


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

I've been adding Potassium Chloride as a prophylactic along with Calcium and Magnesium for about a year now and it seems to work OK. But this talk about Potassium Sulphate has me worried. To get our soft water up to snuff, the Magnesium I've been adding has been in the form of Epson Salts which is Magnesium Sulphate. Is this better than K2SO4 or does it cause the same problems in the substrate?

TIA,
Jim


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I have not found out why, but people seem to be focused on a 4/1 ratio of Ca to Mg. My tap water is about 1/1 so Epsom is not really an option for me. However CaSO4 is a good way for me to get Ca if it were not for the SO4 problem. CaCl is another way. So fay my strategy has been adding CaCO3 (chalk). I am finding that over time my kH is falling so this solves both problems for me. 

I have also heard of people using Nitrate as the anion. Mg(NO3)2+6H2O would give you plants some extra nitrogen if you are nitrogen limited.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The general rule is to minimize (not eliminate) the addition of sulfates to NPTs, especially those with organic soil underlayers. 

For the method for increasing water hardness ("Calcium Dosing Procedure"), I recommended adding a mix of calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate. The majority is calcium chloride, which is totally safe. The little bit of sulfates contributed by magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts) shouldn't be enough to cause a problem.


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## nkambae (Nov 6, 2007)

Day two of no K2SO4 and I forgot to get KCl when I was at the store. AGAIN! ... if I only had a brain. Maybe I can use some K2PO4 in the meantime. Diana, is there an addition to soil we can use to enrich potassium? I've read in a couple of different forums where people who had NPT's benefited from the addition of potassium to alleviate holy leaves. My situation was similar and the crypts showed signs of improvement. I would prefer not to dose anything because my goal in pursuing NPT was to minimize maintenance opting instead for slower more steady growth in my plants. 

I got the two Current LED links on Friday but the power unit won't arrive 'til Monday or Tuesday. I'll post some before and after pics when I get all the fixtures up and running.

stu


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nkambae said:


> Maybe I can use some K2PO4 in the meantime. Diana, is there an addition to soil we can use to enrich potassium? stu


see below


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

nkambae said:


> Maybe I can use some K2PO4 in the meantime. Diana, is there an addition to soil we can use to enrich potassium? stu


You could add a small amount of K2HPO4 to your soil. This is one chemical that (unlike those that contain SO4 or NO3) probably won't hurt and might help.

However, this addition is unnecessary if you have reasonably hardwater (GH >6) and feed you fish well. Adding KCl to the water (as DustyMac describes) would also provide potassium to your plants.


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## nkambae (Nov 6, 2007)

I'm at 5 degrees GH. So I will add some KH2PO4 or KCl to alleviate the potassium deficiency in my Crypts. I'll experiment a bit to see which gives the better result with the least amount (if indeed, there is a difference!). I would prefer not to dose at all since that is my aim in keeping an NPT. But, if I have a deficiency, then I have a deficiency.

The new lights are all present and accounted for. I don't think they are quite as bright as the 27 watt cfl desk top light and the LEDs are more focused than the cfl. I took the lenses off and got a bit more dispersal but I'm still not real happy with it. I took some before and after comparative pics last night but inadvertently erased them in the process of transferring them to my 'puter. ARRRGH! So I'll post some pictures as soon as I get a chance to take some more.

Thanks to all for the advice. I'm grateful for all the forums available to us because it has shortened my learning curve considerably!

stu


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