# PPS-Pro help. At night?



## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

I have a question about the PPS-Pro method. I wanted to know if I could dose at night after lights out before I go to bed. My lights are 12 on and 12 off starting at 9am and off at 9pm. I am usually not up at or before about 10 in the morning at the earliest. I got to bed pretty late too, about 2 or 3 in the morning. I wanted to know If I could dose at night before I go to bed. Any feedback is helpful.


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## Glaucus (Oct 11, 2009)

Why not? The time of day is irrelevant. The stuff you dose at nighttime will still be there for your plants during daytime. As long as you dose chelated iron and your ph is not to high < 6.5, it will be available at the time plants use it.


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Whatever works for you is the best time. As long as its consistent you have little to worry about.


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks guys.


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Glaucus said:


> Why not? The time of day is irrelevant. The stuff you dose at nighttime will still be there for your plants during daytime. As long as you dose chelated iron and your ph is not to high < 6.5, it will be available at the time plants use it.


I am not sure what my PH is at the moment, but I will find out now. If my PH is higher than 6.5, how will that affect my Iron?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I wish the professionals that use PPS-pro chime in here.

I too want to know if it's ok to dose fertilizers when the plants are not going to need them.

--Nikolay


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

niko said:


> I wish the professionals that use PPS-pro chime in here.
> 
> I too want to know if it's ok to dose fertilizers when the plants are not going to need them.
> 
> --Nikolay


I got some advice from another forum, and a few of the experts on there said it was ok. If you would like the link, let me know. Send me a PM and I will send it to you.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm being sarcastic, man. I think most people here know what I think of Ei and Pps. 

Maintaining any amounts of fertilizers in the water column is completely against any logic. Yes the plants grow and many people have beautiful tanks. But they are instable, require changes if you can't take care of them for a few weeks, and a period of "fixing up" after that. The stability that these tanks eventually reach is not due to the fertilizing regimen. Also most people that use and fervently defend water column fertilization know very little details about how the "professionals" do things.

No "professional" uses water column fertilizing. They all "hide" the fertilizers from the algae and run setups in which the availability of fertilizers is linked to the periods in which the plants are most active. CO2 is supplied using the same logic - only when needed. That means one single thing as far as nutrients are concerned - the substrate reigns supreme.

From the above standpoint you can see how asking if it's ok to dump some ferts in the water when the plants don't need them sounds just plain wrong.

--Nikolay


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

niko said:


> I'm being sarcastic, man. I think most people here know what I think of Ei and Pps.
> 
> Maintaining any amounts of fertilizers in the water column is completely against any logic. Yes the plants grow and many people have beautiful tanks. But they are instable, require changes if you can't take care of them for a few weeks, and a period of "fixing up" after that. The stability that these tanks eventually reach is not due to the fertilizing regimen. Also most people that use and fervently defend water column fertilization know very little details about how the "professionals" do things.
> 
> ...


Wow. That was a lot to take in. Lol. I am a total noob at this.

Following what you said, do you think I should just let the Substrate do the fertilizing? Or maybe just fertilize in the morning when I get up?

Please help.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Well, a number of comments. 

From a chemical standpoint it is best to dose chelated fertilizers like iron and some of the other micros at night. This is because strong light degrades the fertilizers into unusable forms. Dosing other fertilizers at night will also not hurt so you can do that if you want.

As for the whole theory of planted tanks and which fertilizer system is best question. I agree with niko, I think water column dosing is highly unstable and can easily give you algae if you don't monitor it frequently. It is therefore a lot more work then substrate systems. Every single tank I have ever set up that used soil as the main source of fertilizers (supplemented with high light and CO2) has done beautifully even with severe neglect. My e.i. and PPS pro tanks have done terribly when I neglected testing or dosing regularly. So from the standpoint of ease I think 100% soil tanks are easier. As for results, there wasn't much of a difference in the growth quality of the plants between soil and e.i. and pps pro. They were similar, except I found the soil tank supplied micros better so plants like star grass did better (no black streaks in leaves). 

However, some tank setups are not well suited for soil. For example, a whole tank full of anubias nana on drift wood does not do well at all in soil tanks. The roots can't reach the soil and they starve. 

So for all stem and foreground tanks use soil, and for moss/java/anubias and driftwood tanks use e.i. or pps pro.


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Zapins said:


> Well, a number of comments.
> 
> From a chemical standpoint it is best to dose chelated fertilizers like iron and some of the other micros at night. This is because strong light degrades the fertilizers into unusable forms. Dosing other fertilizers at night will also not hurt so you can do that if you want.
> 
> ...


OK. A question regarding that though. What do I do if I have a mix? My 10 gallon has a lot of fern and anubius in it. But it has EcoComplete and a ton of stems and crypts. Should I dose a little bit then?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

First, EcoComplete has virtually no nutrients at all. It has some, but you can't rely on it to feed your plants by any means. Second, yes, you should dose a little in the water column as well.

I had anubias in a soil tank for months and they all developed nitrogen deficiency. For one of the slowest growing, least nutrient greedy plants out there I think this says a lot about the levels of nutrients in the water column in a soil tank.


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Zapins said:


> First, EcoComplete has virtually no nutrients at all. It has some, but you can't rely on it to feed your plants by any means. Second, yes, you should dose a little in the water column as well.
> 
> I had anubias in a soil tank for months and they all developed nitrogen deficiency. For one of the slowest growing, least nutrient greedy plants out there I think this says a lot about the levels of nutrients in the water column in a soil tank.


What would be a good substrate to replace it with? I am not too fond of Eco Complete. And I can't afford ADA AS. I was thinking of going dirt on it, but am not sure.

And having said all that, would it be ok to dose in the day, after the lights have come on?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Theoretically though it is better to dose at night since none of the fertilizers will be broken down and the plants have all night to use them, however, if you dose during the day it only reduces the time plants have to absorb the nutrients. So it is ok to dose during the day.

You can remove the substrate, add Scotts top soil, or any other non-fertilized garden soil (in a 1" thick layer) at the bottom and cover it with the eco complete as a cap. Or you could buy pool filter sand for $8 per 50 pound bag. Soil is great.


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Zapins said:


> Theoretically though it is better to dose at night since none of the fertilizers will be broken down and the plants have all night to use them, however, if you dose during the day it only reduces the time plants have to absorb the nutrients. So it is ok to dose during the day.
> 
> You can remove the substrate, add Scotts top soil, or any other non-fertilized garden soil (in a 1" thick layer) at the bottom and cover it with the eco complete as a cap. Or you could buy pool filter sand for $8 per 50 pound bag. Soil is great.


I was thinking of using soil with a gravel cap. How beneficial would it be to add the soil under the EcoComplete?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Very beneficial for all plants rooted in it. There will likely be algae for the first few weeks if you keep your lighting the same as it is now, then 3-4 years of virtually no algae until the nutrients in the soil run out. You can reduce the algae by reducing the lighting intensity or duration, or mineralizing the soil first (takes several weeks).


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Zapins said:


> Very beneficial for all plants rooted in it. There will likely be algae for the first few weeks if you keep your lighting the same as it is now, then 3-4 years of virtually no algae until the nutrients in the soil run out. You can reduce the algae by reducing the lighting intensity or duration, or mineralizing the soil first (takes several weeks).


I may do that. I need to get some tanks moved around first, and need to get another one setup. I may just go that route and put the topsoil in with the Eco cap. Thanks man.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

No problem, be sure to post pictures of the process, maybe start a thread in the journals section.


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## cableguy69846 (Feb 7, 2011)

Zapins said:


> No problem, be sure to post pictures of the process, maybe start a thread in the journals section.


Will do. I have some of my journals in my signature. I try to keep them updated, but sometimes I forget.


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## modster (Jun 16, 2007)

Zapins said:


> Very beneficial for all plants rooted in it. There will likely be algae for the first few weeks if you keep your lighting the same as it is now, then 3-4 years of virtually no algae until the nutrients in the soil run out. You can reduce the algae by reducing the lighting intensity or duration, or mineralizing the soil first (takes several weeks).


So you don't fertilizer in that 3-4 year period? What about water change? How is the growth rate compare to EI? Right now, I dose PPS pro with one water change per month. Everything works well until I have to be away from the tank for a week and the tank would just crash. I really want to give soil a try since ADA AS is so hard to get these days.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

In the 4 tanks that I currently have going I have not fertilized them at all and the growth has been great. One tank has been running for about 3 years now and is still growing plants just fine. The other 3 tanks have been up for maybe 1-2 years now, and I just set up a 5th a few days ago, will be doing a 6th in a week or two. 

Growth rate is exactly the same as EI if you are 100% on top of EI and never mess up. The difference is soil never messes up since it is always there and doesn't depend on me remembering to dose. 

As for water changes... In the 3 year old tank I hardly ever do water changes, maybe once every 2-3 months since it is far away from where I live and I don't always get the chance to go up and take care of it. In the 90g 1-2 year old tank I do water changes daily with my auto water change system, maybe 15g a day. In the other two 1 year setups I do water changes very infrequently, maybe 2-3 months as well. So far all tanks are doing well, but I wonder about the 15g/day tank. I think that I might be flushing out nutrients faster from this tank then the other ones. Still no deficiencies yet, so all is good. I've been able to grow some of the harder plants like nesea in there with no problem at all. 

Soil is really the easiest setup to deal with, you just get a bag or two of unfertilized black garden soil, Scott's soil for example and just chuck in 1-1.5 inches at the bottom and cap it with about 1.5-2 inches of sand or gravel and you are set. During the first few weeks you'll get tannins leaching out into the water column, so you will have tea colored water, and maybe algae. Then after 4-6 weeks things should clear up and you'll have 3-4 years of peace of mind when you have to go away for a week or two. 

The important thing is just to match your lighting with the type of setup you want. For example if you are going to have 10 watts/gallon of light, you're going to need awesome CO2 coverage and maybe some floating plants to absorb the blast, if you have 2-4 watts / gallon you can get away with spotty or even no CO2 at all. The 90g 1-2 year old tank bounces back and forth between no CO2 for several months to having CO2 for a month or two, and back again. The growth rate seems to stay pretty constant in both conditions, maybe the soil is making CO2 via decomposition, I am not sure.

In this regard soil is very robust and allows you a lot of forgiveness without terrible stunting or algae consequences. I no longer have the time to have EI/PPS pro tanks so soil is a perfect alternative since I can still use CO2 and high lights and get all the same benefits without the same maintenance. I have never tried ADA aquasoil, but I'm willing to bet you get the same exact benefits with $2.50 for a 50 pound bag of garden soil capped with $7 per 50 pound bag of pool filter sand as you do with the expensive aquasoil.


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