# Sticky  Link to Diana's "Diseased Fish" thread



## JanS

I thought I'd post a sticky here for the link to Diana's "Diseased Fish" thread, so it's quicker to find. 
There are already quite a few stickies in the Fish forum, so I thought I'd balance it out and put a sticky with the link here, since Diana wrote it, and it's often referenced. 

Diseased Fish by Diana Walstad


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## Jane in Upton

Thanks Jan!

This thread has such great information, I've found myself going back to it on several occasions as a reference guide.

thanks,
Jane


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## Nevermore

The link doesn't seem to work for me. Is it dead?


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## DataGuru

Here's a thread on TB by Diana
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=47682&highlight=disease+tb


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## Chris.

neither links work. update?


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## dwalstad

Dear Chris,

Information on mycobacteriosis (Fish TB), the most common chronic disease of aquarium fish, is on my book's website:

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm

My article (Mycobacteriosis: The Stealth Disease) is available there as a free download. The section on stress as a factor in disease resistance is something that everyone should read.

I will be updating this article in the next few months so comments are welcome.

Diana


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## Chris.

Thanks for the link! What do you think of this disease? What is it and how can I treat it? My dwarf gourami has a similar problem but much worse than the one in the picture. He is alive, but doesn't do much. one side looks like the picture, but the other side has a deeper hole eaten through.


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## dwalstad

Chris. said:


> Thanks for the link! What do you think of this disease? What is it and how can I treat it? My dwarf gourami has a similar problem but much worse than the one in the picture. He is alive, but doesn't do much. one side looks like the picture, but the other side has a deeper hole eaten through.


Dear Chris,

These ulcers are probably due to a bacterial infection of some kind. The fish in picture seems to have a swollen belly ("ascites"), which is another symptom of MB (mycobacteriosis).

You can try salt baths and antibiotics for the possibility that the disease is not MB, and therefore, treatable.

If these measures work, count yourself lucky. Otherwise, I would either remove or euthanize the afflicted fish. Whatever bacterial infections these fish have will probably infect other fish in the tank.

I recommend a quarantine tank, rigorous culling, and a UV sterilizing filter.

I wish that adding new fish to tanks was easier for hobbyists. However, the fact is that some fish being sold are chronic disease carriers. OR the fish are so stressed when you buy them that they quickly succumb to bacteria that ordinarily are not pathogenic. Or the fish have not yet developed immunity to the natural normal flora (bacteria and parasites) in their new home. Or the new tank conditions are substandard and stress the fish. Tricky, very tricky.


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## hooha

I tried to fix the links in the thread. If they aren't working let one of the staff know....


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## tonbrencat

Diana I need your help!!! what do you do to treat ICH in the NPT?-I keep reading that salt will kill the plants and this is the only thing I have ever used. What about high temps and plants?


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## dwalstad

tonbrencat said:


> What about high temps and plants?


I've tried chemicals, and they didn't work. Forget about plants and high temps. Treating ich with salt in a planted tank may (or may not) kill the plants. Worth a try.

You may find a chemical (e.g., Malachite Green) that kills the Ich swarmers. If the chemical works, you should see no new white pimples appearing on your fish. If pimples keep appearing, it means that the chemical isn't killing the Ich swarmers. Then you and your fish are in trouble.

Many methods will work, but many Ich strains are now resistant to treatments that may have worked in the past. Write me at my e-mail <[email protected]) and I'll send you my article on the Transfer Method. Basically, you need to get your fish away from the swarmers.


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## tonbrencat

Thanks Diana, being new with plants I need the pros help, so thank you. Catching fish in a heavy planted tank was easier than I thought, I don't like to use chemicals unless I have to, so the fish will get; up temp, salt, wc's in QT; planted tank no fish water change, I read that ich without a host will die, right? Thanks again


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## colinsk

I just re-read your article. It is a very nice update! Thank you.

I had a question, you state "I also started a policy of removing surface water biofilms from the tanks."

How would one do that? I have tried on my planted aquarium but I can't seem to remove it.

One note:



> (can grow for a year in distilled water)


 Grow or survive? If they are growing for a year then they must be metabolizing their lipid reserves and be very efficient. Yeast cells will consume their lipid reserves in less than a day in an aerobic environment for example.


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## dwalstad

colinsk said:


> I just re-read your article. It is a very nice update! Thank you.
> 
> I had a question, you state "I also started a policy of removing surface water biofilms from the tanks."
> QUOTE]
> 
> I just put a 1 quart container into the tank and let surface water fall into it. I see the oily film fall into it.


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## waterfaller1

dwalstad said:


> [
> 
> I just put a 1 quart container into the tank and let surface water fall into it. I see the oily film fall into it.


I do the same. I use the clear container a cut pineapple comes in.


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## Chris.

why not use one of the filter intake surface skimmer attachments?


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## colinsk

No filter.  If I change the powerhead so it breaks up the surface of the water then I don't get the film. However, I also think this drives off the little CO2 created by the fish food.


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## dwalstad

colinsk said:


> I just re-read your article. It is a very nice update! Thank you.
> 
> Grow or survive? If they are growing for a year then they must be metabolizing their lipid reserves and be very efficient. Yeast cells will consume their lipid reserves in less than a day in an aerobic environment for example.


Mycobacteria are _incredibly_ efficient growers under starvation conditions. They grow and divide (probably not all year long, but much longer than a day).


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## colinsk

dwalstad said:


> Mycobacteria are _incredibly_ efficient growers under starvation conditions. They grow and divide (probably not all year long, but much longer than a day).


Wow! That is likely one of the reasons they stock so much lipids. Kind of like the bear that stocks up of fat for the winter. It surprises me how little we know about micro-organisms. I think with the new gene technologies we will surely learn more about them. I know our understanding of yeast is growing dramatically.

(I mis-typed I should just retract the whole sentence "Yeast cells will consume their lipid reserves in less than a day in an aerobic environment for example." To clarify it would be to far out of topic for this forum. If anyone is really interested in how yeast survives storage and returns to a nutrient rich media PM me. :retard: )


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## Jane in Upton

Thanks, Mods, for fixing the links - they all seem to be working now.

And thank you, Diana, for providing the free download-able PDF of your article at your book website. Certainly something every fish keeper should read!

-Jane


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## braveotter

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet:

Fish medicine, featuring our very own Ms Walstead's beautiful tank!
Plus some bonus features with fish surgery. Very interesting stuff.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3214/04-rx-flash.html


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## hornedtoad1

*ich in the npt*

i've recently set up my first el (10-gal) and the initial fish were fine; bought another, and he turned out to be an ich carrier. it spread; everybody got it, with the spots, lethargic, scratching themselves on things. i researched methylene blue and malachite green; both appear to be plant killers, so they were out. i'd read that an elevated temp would take care of it, so i raised the temp to about 80F deg and left it there for a week or so, then dropped it back to 75-76 deg. the spots are gone, and the fish (platies) are vigorous and look really healthy. i'd wanted to raise it higher, but 80 deg was about all my little heater could do. i'd been skeptical about how effective it would be, but i'm a believer now.


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## hornedtoad1

*ich in the npt*

i've recently set up my first el (10-gal) and the initial fish were fine; bought another, and he turned out to be an ich carrier. it spread; everybody got it, with the spots, lethargic, scratching themselves on things. i researched methylene blue and malachite green; both appear to be plant killers, so they were out. i'd read that an elevated temp would take care of it, so i raised the temp to about 80F deg and left it there for a week or so, then dropped it back to 75-76 deg. the spots are gone, and the fish (platies) are vigorous and look really healthy. i'd wanted to raise it higher, but 80 deg was about all my little heater could do. that worked out ok, and the plants weren't affected. i'd been skeptical about how effective it would be, but i'm a believer now.

======================================================================================================

this was in response to tonbrencat's post; this post got duplicated. is there a way to delete posts? guess i need some help with this. sorry.


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## Sasanid

Is there any update on the MB situation in LFS nowadays? Is it still so common and each new purchase should be quarantined? 
I noticed that two best threads concerning fish disease are quite dead... Unfortunately. 
I have some Galaxy Danios suffering MB (three already dead), next one have to be catch and „go to sleep”. 
I know it is generally not curable.

I would like to buy fish for my new El natural tank, but I really do not want to go through the same thing as with my first small „casual” tank... Do you have any info? Are there any MB tests available for hobbyist? Or is the only way in long QT? 
Any thoughts? 
Thank you!


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## ObiQuiet

I believe I have an outbreak right now, but it only (so far) affects fish I've had for over a year -- and all new additions were quarantined with no symptoms.

So, I think that the long incubation period and the fact that MB is pretty much always present makes these the right analysis:

0. Of course, put new fish in quarantine Just rea.lize that a fish with MB can pass even the longest quarantine period.
1. Remove fish showing symptoms
2. Consider an ultra-violet sterilizer

These points are covered in Diana Walstad's article on MB.


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## Sasanid

Thank you Obi,
I have some doubts about quarantine in my case. 
I will have three fish species from two different LFS in the tank - if for example one has MB, it will pass it to other in the QT most probably. I can not set two quarantine tanks. I do not have space for that unfortunately. This is difficult, more difficult than I tought.
Maybe I will just use UV sterilizer. 
I also noticed there is significant biofilm on the water surface. 
Should i remove it daily?
Thank you for help. 

Diana's article is great and gave me some courage to continue with fish despite of so common MB cases in this hobby.


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## Gerald

Agree with ObiQ ... Myco is very common, very persistent, and is a facultative pathogen, not an obligate one, meaning it can persist and grow for years without an animal host. Quarantine may help detect actively-growing Myco infections (usually on old fish or otherwise stressed fish), but Myco can sit dormant in fish for years with no symptoms, until old age or other factors weaken the immune system. UV sterilizer may help slow Myco transmission, but it won't stop it. Myco cells shed in fish poop, or on dead or dying fish, (not passing through the UV sterilizer) can still be eaten and infect new fish. Keeping your fishes' immune systems strong is the best defense, and remove any fish that develop open sores (more potential to shed large quantities of Myco cells). I suspect various Myco species are present in the majority of our home aquariums today, and probably in ALL pet shops, wholesalers, fish farms, and many fish foods. Specialty fancy-strain breeders that rarely if ever bring in new fish or plants _might_ be Myco-free, but preventing exposure is a nearly impossible task. Myco has been found in many public water supply systems; it is more chlorine-resistant than most bacteria.


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## Sasanid

Thank you. I think I will not run the QT. I will talk to LFS people and try to figure out how they treat new fish deliveries. 
One of the species I'm interested in have been sitting in their tanks since at least one month. That could be good signe I hope.
Thank you for help.


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## dwalstad

I would not assume that those Danios had MB unless you have a valid diagnosis via autopsy. Recent disease surveys of aquarium fish (both healthy and sick fish) show that parasites cause *many more* problems in the aquarium fish industry than mycobacteria. My article 'Parasite Surveys of Aquarium Fish', which summarizes the disease surveys, is on my website at: https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/

Since writing the new survey article, I've readjusted my thinking to de-emphasize MB. Yes, MB was diagnosed in my Rainbowfish. But it could be that these fish are just particularly susceptible and/or that they live a long time (10-15 years). Since MB is a chronic disease, a longer living fish is more likely to show symptoms as time goes on.

Before you assume MB, I would get an autopsy or try some anti-parasite medication. Salt treatment or Levamisole HCl should solve the problem if it is an external parasites. My article 'Flukes and Sick Guppies', also on my website, has more details about the treatment.


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## Sasanid

Thank you Diana. This is really helpful. I just read you article and it seems that things are not so bad after all  I think I should not worry too much just observing and act if necessary. 

It is good to have place like this forum, where one can learn lots of things from experienced hobbyist and scientists.


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## dwalstad

Glad I might have helped. Thank you for your kind words.


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## Gerald

Sasanid -- what are the symptoms that made you think the danios have Myco infection?


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## Sasanid

Hi Gerald, 
It started around one month after I added galaxies to the tank. First fish stopped eating and was floating near the surface in the corner of the tank. Two days later died. Second one suddenly get swelled, bulging eyes, raised scales. Died next day. 
Third one the same symptoms as above, but I catched it immediately and removed from the community. I made a photo but it is difficult to make good close up with smartphone. 

Last one was removed as well (three days after symphtoms occured as I was hoping it is just some temporary problem) - this time with shrunken belly, did not eat at all, just swimming slowly near the surface in the corner. I do not have qt tank yet. I'm thinking about qt tank anyway - just in case. 

There was one accident before all of that happened - one of the slimes was sucekd into the filter outlet - suicidal run for alga I suppose  I did not noticed that until water start to flow out through aerator tube. The slime survived. 
This took several hours to be noticed. But I'm not sure if that started the case or it is in fact some infection.

Right now all otehr fish in my first "community" tank seems ok. But for safety reasons I'm not moving anything from it to the new El Natural one - including plants, slimes, shrimps.

PS. I'm sorry for my English If there are any spelling or grammar mistakes, I'm still learning.


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## dwalstad

From the picture and added information, it does sound like your Danios/Galaxies had/have MB (mycobacteriosis), not parasites. (That swelling up in photographed Danio was a definite symptom in my Rainbowfish that had MB.) The Danios were infected when you bought them and then the disease killed them a month later. That slow development sounds like MB. 

I would get rid of that last Danio as soon as possible. I just hope that your other fish stay okay and don't start showing symptoms. 

You might want to clean the filter and do a water change. You won't be able to eradicate the mycobacteria, but you can reduce their numbers.

I wish you luck!


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## Sasanid

I already removed this danio. 
Now there are (54 liters tank): 
5x danio galaxy, 
4x clown killifish 
amano shrimps (with lots of eggs)
too many snails... 

I can buy UV sterilizer, that will help to some point.

To be honest I'm starting to think about total anihilation of this tank. This is my fault, I started it too early, without proper knowledge and preparation. I found this forum too late and read your book after the tank was ready. 
I also did not check the LFS properly. Now I can see they have lots of dead fish in the tanks.

The plan is like this:
1. Buying QT tank and UV sterilizer (preferably 5W),
2. removal of all the animals (killifish mostly, and shrimps)
3. Euthanasia of all danios (I'm sorry for that, but as I know MB is not curable and they came from different LFS than killifish and shrimps),
4. anihilation of all plants from the tank. The same with the substrate.
5. sterilization of the tank in hot water, isopropyl alcohol, and strong detergent - good rinsing.
6. Start again with soil and gravel - as per your book 

What do you think Diana? 
I know that you made it - I mean won with MB in your tank once, but I'm not a microbiologist and I do not have so much resources to be placed in the aquarium hobby.

MB are very interesting bacteria spiecies for studies, for microbiologists and pharmacologist. 
Especially the macrophages phagocytosis survival pheonomenon and the MB cell walls structure (which is most probably connected).


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## dwalstad

I know you want this problem to go away immediately and forever by just tearing everything down. But I would argue that you really have nothing to lose by just waiting. If you tear everything down, you will always be fearful of it happening again. And there's really no way of completely protecting yourself from fish carrying mycobacteria. Even a healthy fish may develop MB in the most normal tank as the fish enters old age and loses it immunity. Environmental mycobacteria are just that--part of the environment.

If it were me, I would get rid of the other Danios, _especially_ if they came from the bad LFS. Since you are planning to get a UV sterilizer, why not add it to this tank? If the Killifish don't show problems say in 3 months, then my verdict would be that the mycobacteria are probably not that virulent, just ordinary environmental species that somehow got out of control in the Danios. By waiting, you could learn to manage future problems, just as every good fish keeper has to do--for any disease, whether it be parasites or MB.

If the Killifish start showing symptoms before 3 months, you can always go ahead and proceed with your eradication plan.

That's just my "two cents." It would be nice to hear what Gerald has to say on this matter.


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## Sasanid

Dear Diana, thank you for advice. You're right.
I'm ordering UV sterilizer.
I will try to fight. Thank you one more time.


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## dwalstad

You sound like a very thoughtful person and conscientious fish keeper. And it helps to be a fighter! 

One last thought and then I'll be quiet.  Being able to manage MB without tearing the tank down was a big personal victory for me. Going forward now with breeding guppies, MB is no longer the big scary thing that it once was.

Let us know how this turns out!


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## zolteeC

Sasanid said:


> I'm ordering UV sterilizer.


I'd do some research to check if the UV sterilizer is set up correctly. Power, flow rate and turn-over are important parameters and need to be selected properly in order to be efficient.

Say even if you have a reasonable strong UV lamp, but the flow rate is way too high, then pathogens may do not spend enough time in the tube and they do not get ZAPPED.

There is data available where you can look up how much dosage different pathogens need to receive in order to get "inactivated".


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## Gerald

I agree with Diana; learn to live with it. You probably have been for years and just didn't know it. Do everything else you can to keep the fish healthy (water quality, diet, temperature, low stress levels, etc) and their immune systems can usually fight off Myco pretty well. Eventually as the fish get old, or weakend by some other disease or stress, Myco may overwhelm their system and kill them. I suspect Myco is one of the most common causes of death in older aquarium fish that have been well-kept for years and have avoided all the other common diseases that usually kill fish sooner. For this reason I think of Myco as the "advanced fish keeper's disease".

... and remove any fish with advanced-stage Myco symptoms that look like they're going to die soon. You want to avoid exposing the healthy fish to LARGE concentrations of Myco, and not let them nibble on dying fish with Myco.


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## Sasanid

Thank you for all information and support. 

I'm doing water change every three days. Less food as well.
UV filter is on the way, it is suitable for up to 150l tank. UV chamber with mirror inside. I should install it on Monday in "general tank".
Killyfish are ok, no visible symptoms of any disease.

I will post updates if something change.

Thank you again!
Cheers! Kristopher


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## dwalstad

Gerald said:


> I agree with Diana; learn to live with it. You probably have been for years and just didn't know it. Do everything else you can to keep the fish healthy (water quality, diet, temperature, low stress levels, etc) and their immune systems can usually fight off Myco pretty well. Eventually as the fish get old, or weakened by some other disease or stress, Myco may overwhelm their system and kill them. I suspect Myco is one of the most common causes of death in older aquarium fish that have been well-kept for years and have avoided all the other common diseases that usually kill fish sooner. For this reason I think of Myco as the "advanced fish keeper's disease".
> 
> ... and remove any fish with advanced-stage Myco symptoms that look like they're going to die soon. You want to avoid exposing the healthy fish to LARGE concentrations of Myco, and not let them nibble on dying fish with Myco.


Well-said and excellent input from a very advanced and knowledgeable fish keeper. Thank you, Gerald!


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## Gerald

A sizeable chunk of my knowledge came from YOU.


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