# Tank Woes



## ctmpwrdcamry

Well, my tanks see be to testing my patients right now. One has green water and will be coming out of the black out tonight, not that big of a deal.

However, i was feeding my fish in my larger, planted tank(the one i have been fitting BGA in) and my neons have ich!  So i started in with the ich treatment and slowly started to up the tank temp.

After that short rant, i only have one question. When i do my water change tonight and add more ich treatment, should i add frets each time i do a water change(i plan for three over the next few days), even though its a low tech tank?

Thanks

Sean


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## MatPat

How large is your "larger" tank and how big of a water change are you doing? % gallons on a 100g tank would probably not need more ferts added but 5g on a 10g tank would probably require more ferts...

Low tech tanks often have issues with water changes since this increases the CO2 levels (more CO2 in tap water). The algae can adapt to the fluctuating CO2 levels better than the plants. You would be better off not doing water changes on your low-tech tanks...but with the Ick I can understand the need. My low tech 10g has only had 1 water change since February when it was initially set up!


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## ctmpwrdcamry

Yeah, i went with low tech because of water changes. The tank is only 45 gallons. I was going to do a 25% water change, then redose treatment.


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## MatPat

More questions  

Are you only dosing weekly since this is a low tech tank or are you dosing more frequently?

If you are dosing weekly and doing a 25% water change I would only add the ferts after the second of your three planned water changes. 

Are your fish new to the tank or have they been in there for a while?


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## EcleckticGirl

My gut reaction is to skip the ferts while you are treating your fish. The plants should be able to handle it for a while. I only intend to fertilize artificially while I still have a low fish load and go even lower tech and let just the fish do the fertilizing. Matt is the one with experience in the hobby though.


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## MatPat

Dineen is probably right, you could get by without fertilizing during the Ick treatment. I just prefer to have "extra" in the tank in case it is needed  

I have stunted my P. stellatus one too many times while trying to drop the nitrates to redden them up a bit ](*,) I have since given up on making them red. I have enough red plants in the tank anyway...


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## ctmpwrdcamry

Um, new fish as of three weeks ago, nothing that new.

after the seond water change you say? thats very doable. I just trying to minamize the lose of fish, i generally lose a few.


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## EcleckticGirl

Not only that, but each water change is bringing in some fresh nutrients, we just don't know what exactly unless Sean has tested his tap water for all those micros.

I still haven't quite figured out the reasoning behind a low tech tank getting fewer water changes. I do a 50% water change weekly on my tank. Well-- 2 gallons on a 7 gallon tank that's moderate to heavily planted with a decent sized piece of driftwood, so I figure that close enough to 50%. If you can find the articles about why fewer water changes are better, point them out to me, Matt. My reasoning is that I am refreshing the CO2 that's being used up, along with the other reasons for water change.


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## ctmpwrdcamry

I have not tested my water recently, i just found a schedule that worked and went with it.  

According to Tom Barr the reason behind fewer water changes is the Co2 you mentioned. After a while the plants adapt to the lower Co2 environment and being to grow accordingly. Plants react slower to a change in Co2 than alge. Alge will grow more with more frequent water changes and your plants are not able to adapt.


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## EcleckticGirl

Six weeks and no algae, but the cat hair I thought was hair algae. The diatoms were gone after a day of hungry guppies grazing on them. I am even considering going so low tech as to give up the filter once the plants grow out some more. Then I would definitely NOT give up weekly water changes. 

I figure I would keep the filter and high tech experimenting for the 20 gallon tank Jack offered...


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## MatPat

Sean, 
How many fish did you add at one time...just looking for a cause of stress i.e. overloading the bio filter, change in water parameters, etc. That is what usually induces Ick.

Dineen,
The CO2 you are adding with the water change will all be gone by the next day with or without plants. That is the reasoning behind letting your tap water sit 24hours before getting a pH reading. The 24 hours lets the CO2 dissipate out of the container, kinda like how a pop looses it carbonation if left our overnight.

Here is the link about not doing water changes, though it is not spelled out specifically: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395

Here is a quote at the beginning of the paragraph so you won't have to hunt it down "Doing water changes adds CO2 back to a CO2 limited tank.
Plants and algae both can and do adapt to low CO2 environments..."

The plants and algae in your tank get used to growing with lower CO2 levels for most of the week. On water change day you add more CO2 with the WC. Plants are slower to adapt than the algea and the algae gets to the CO2 first.

Surface agitation in a non-CO2 tank is actually beneficial as it introduces more ambient CO2 into the tank and tends to keep it stable. Corner filters and airstones are also a good way to get more ambient CO2 into a non-CO2 tank. The opposite is true of CO2 injected tanks...the air stones and surface agitation tend to drive the CO2 out of the water with the higher levels of CO2 in a CO2 injected tank.


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## MatPat

Looks like Sean beat me to the description on the Water Change  

I don't want to burst your bubble Dineen but remember, in low tech tanks, things happen much slower. It has been suggested up to 10x slower than a high tech tank. It takes about a week or so for a new (at least my tanks) high tech tank to develop some sort of algae, usually diatoms, just so you have a comparison...

Than again, it is very possible that you will not get any large algae outbreak in your tanks. My 10g had very little until I added the extra 15w of light and brought on the diatoms. The key is to get on top of the algae as soon as you notice it starting to appear. I know you will be on it very quickly and your guppies may even help you out should you get any more algae


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## EcleckticGirl

Thanks for the food for thought, Matt. I had wondered about the CO2 dissipation myself already even with just letting the water sit out overnight before a water change... The water agitation issue too was confusing, everywhere the discussions say surface agitation is bad, but that's assuming CO2 enrichment, not the other way around. 

Reading the article doesn't necessarily say that frequent water changes on a low tech tank are a bad idea, only that your plants adapt. The goal of limiting the water changes seems to be to limit algae growth. But it seems that having a strong plant load can combat that, and limiting water changes on a newly starting tank may be a way to combat algae if it's a problem. I would think that if you can maintain a water change schedule, then you are re-adding the phosphates, etc. back into the tank without the dosing, which is one of the goals of low tech... not having to dose. It's all part of the balancing act, I guess.


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## MatPat

EcleckticGirl said:


> Reading the article doesn't necessarily say that frequent water changes on a low tech tank are a bad idea, only that your plants adapt.


If you really read into what Tom is saying, it does say that it is bad for the plants because they destroy their low CO2 enzymes ...(and produce high CO2 enzymes). Then when the CO2 is gone (the next day or so) they have to produce more low CO2 enzymes. Not a very efficient process I would imagine. Then again, if you age your water change water like I believe you do, this probably isn't much of a concern.



EcleckticGirl said:


> I would think that if you can maintain a water change schedule, then you are re-adding the phosphates, etc. back into the tank without the dosing, which is one of the goals of low tech... not having to dose. It's all part of the balancing act, I guess.


Yes, but only if your water source has phosphates and nitrates in it. I do not have either in my water supply, though traces are probably more than enough in a low light tank with weekly water changes. I would think it is much easier to add a bit of traces, NO3, and PO4 than to do a water change. It is a balancing act and everyone's tank is a bit different due to water quality, maintenance habits, and fish load.

All of my tanks seem to be different. Considering my 75g and 30g they both have the same substrate, get ferts adding in very close to the same amounts, same wattage of lighting and the same color but yet some plants don't do well in the 75g but grow great in the 30g and vice versa. The only variable as far as I can tell between the tanks is the temp. The 75g is between 80-82 degrees for the Discus where the 30g is between 76 and 78 degrees.


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## ctmpwrdcamry

Matt,

I only added two fish, in total i may have around 30 in my 45.


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## MatPat

I doubt two fish would add much of a bio load on a filter unless they were Oscars  

How is the Ick treatment coming along?


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## ctmpwrdcamry

Its going well. I did the first water change last night of 25% and added the second dose. Asside from my cardnals, everyone else appeared to be ich free. The good news abotu the cardnals is they were eating and acting normal.


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## MatPat

I have had bad luck with both Cardinals and Neons since moving here. All 12 Cardinals from Jack's bit the dust. I still have the original dozen or so Cardinals I purchased in Maryland (Aquarium Center) about 18 months ago! However, I only have 1 of the 12 Neons I purchased at WalMart last year. He is swimming happily with the Cardinals and probably thinks he is a Cardinal by now


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## ctmpwrdcamry

I bought six over a year ago at AA and still have 4, well had 4 before i left for work this morning.


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## Rob Tetrazona

MatPat said:


> I have had bad luck with both Cardinals and Neons since moving here. All 12 Cardinals from Jack's bit the dust. I still have the original dozen or so Cardinals I purchased in Maryland (Aquarium Center) about 18 months ago! However, I only have 1 of the 12 Neons I purchased at WalMart last year. He is swimming happily with the Cardinals and probably thinks he is a Cardinal by now


Walmart, Meijer, & Super Hyper Mega-Lo Mart's are some of the worst places to purchase fish. They are not well cared for. However, out of my 8 Neon's that I purchased from Petsmart a 1 - 1 1/2 months ago, only 4 have survived.

On the flip side to that, over the past 2 weeks, my breeding pair of Neon's have hatched 100+ new borns and I will be starting another breeding attempt tonight which should net another 100+ eggs tomorrow. I'm planning on the pair to pump 100 Neon's out a week until I run out of places to put the eggs for hatching and grow out. Yes, I PM'd Acidrain about buying some of his tanks and yes he probably lost the PM in his flooded Inbox.

In about 2 1/2 - 3 months I should have some Neon Tetras old enough let go of...that is after I build up my school of Neon's first!  I'll keep you posted.


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## ctmpwrdcamry

Its hard enought to keep them alive, how the heck do you bread them.


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## MatPat

rwoehr said:


> Walmart, Meijer, & Super Hyper Mega-Lo Mart's are some of the worst places to purchase fish. They are not well cared for. However, out of my 8 Neon's that I purchased from Petsmart a 1 - 1 1/2 months ago, only 4 have survived.


Most definately. However, when I was in Maryland they were the only local source for me. I didn't know about Aquarium Center at the time and don't thnk I would've made the 4 hour round trip for a few Neons either 

The selection of LFS's around here has been no better for Cardinals either. My school of 12 Cardinals from Jacks had a 100% fatality rate within a month or so. I would assume it's not the water quality since the Discus and Apistos are doing very well!



rwoehr said:


> On the flip side to that, over the past 2 weeks, my breeding pair of Neon's have hatched 100+ new borns and I will be starting another breeding attempt tonight which should net another 100+ eggs tomorrow. I'm planning on the pair to pump 100 Neon's out a week until I run out of places to put the eggs for hatching and grow out. Yes, I PM'd Acidrain about buying some of his tanks and yes he probably lost the PM in his flooded Inbox.


I would post another reply to Acidrain and see if maybe he will answer the post. Those little guys should bring you in a little bit of cash in the upcoming months. Sound like you are haing good success with the Neons, any luck with the Rasboras yet?

If you're interested in trying some Cardinals, I would be willing to let you have the 11 or so that I have in the 55g as long as I can have a few of the youngins once you get them breeding 



rwoehr said:


> In about 2 1/2 - 3 months I should have some Neon Tetras old enough let go of...that is after I build up my school of Neon's first!  I'll keep you posted.


I might be interested in some of them for one of my tanks when they are ready, especially if you want the Cardinals!


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## EcleckticGirl

rwoehr said:


> Yes, I PM'd Acidrain about buying some of his tanks and yes he probably lost the PM in his flooded Inbox.


I'd email him directly just like he suggested, if you haven't got his phone number from a GCAS directory somehow. He probably isn't watching the posts and can't keep up that way either.


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## Rob Tetrazona

MatPat said:


> I would post another reply to Acidrain and see if maybe he will answer the post. Those little guys should bring you in a little bit of cash in the upcoming months. Sound like you are haing good success with the Neons, any luck with the Rasboras yet?
> 
> If you're interested in trying some Cardinals, I would be willing to let you have the 11 or so that I have in the 55g as long as I can have a few of the youngins once you get them breeding
> 
> I might be interested in some of them for one of my tanks when they are ready, especially if you want the Cardinals!


I made contact with Acidrain.

I haven't tried the Rasboras yet. I'll try them soon.

Heck yeah I'll take those Cardinals! If I can get them to breed, I'll definitely hook you up! Thanks!


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## Rob Tetrazona

ctmpwrdcamry said:


> Its hard enought to keep them alive, how the heck do you bread them.


Isolation, conditioning, Amazon River-like water quality, spawning media, separation of parents and eggs, darkness.

I'd like to think that the fish would be hardier than LFS purchased since they are grown locally and weened into our region's water.


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## ctmpwrdcamry

I would also like to think that. Like Matt said, i would love to have some cardinals if you were able to spawn them. I like those and rummie nose.


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## ctmpwrdcamry

OHYEAH, the reason this thread started in the first place... 

All ich is gone from everyone except the Cardinals as stated above, however, even the cardinals are almost cleared up. Hopefully, as per instructions, this third dosing will be the final dose.


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## MatPat

Did the third dose do the trick?


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## ctmpwrdcamry

When i got up this morning, all of the Cardnails still have a spot or two on them. I need to do the last water change tonight and turn the heat up alittle more. I am hoping that it will be gone by tomorrow or i have to start into the 2nd 3 day treatment. So far no deaths however.


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