# Algae Issues w/ Pics



## netcode (Aug 14, 2007)

here are some pictures of the algae that I have encountered. I have recently changed this tank to what it is now about 7 weeks ago. The tank was up for about a year before i rescapped it. Here are some specs

60Gallon
1.3 WPG
Dose Flourish(2-3 times a week), Excel(daily), Potassium(2-3 times a week), Iron(daily). 
12 Tiger Barbs, 7 Serpae Tetras, one glass catfish (from what I have been told)
Flourish Substrate mixed with pea gravel.
AquaClear 70
Water change every 7 days (sometimes 8 or 9 if i am lazy) roughly 30%


From my knowledge I assume the brown stuff is diatoms. But I thought it would go away with time due to the new gravel but its been 7 weeks...
The brighter green on the sand I assume is cyanobacteria or whatever, I have had issues with this in the past. 
The darker hair stuff on the sand I have yet to encounter, this is a first.

Any suggestions would be great


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## mellowvision (Jun 18, 2007)

looks like what the cyno looked like once it died, in my aquarium 3 weeks ago. darkened and started dissapearing. I vacced the rest


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Have you run any tests on your water ferts levels? With only 1.3wpg, I would say you're overdosing the ferts you're adding, and possibly not adding some others which it might need. I don't see a source for nitrates or phosphates. You could probably run this as a low light set up which wouldn't require much dosing of any kind, nor water changes.


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## netcode (Aug 14, 2007)

Bert H said:


> Have you run any tests on your water ferts levels? With only 1.3wpg, I would say you're overdosing the ferts you're adding, and possibly not adding some others which it might need. I don't see a source for nitrates or phosphates. You could probably run this as a low light set up which wouldn't require much dosing of any kind, nor water changes.


I wasn't aware that the ferts I am dosing could potentially lead to algae if they were overdosed. I always thought that Nitrates and Phosphates lead to algae if not used. Plus our tap water is high in phosphates so I have been told. As for nitrates I thought the fish waste would be enough.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

netcode said:


> I wasn't aware that the ferts I am dosing could potentially lead to algae if they were overdosed. I always thought that Nitrates and Phosphates lead to algae if not used. Plus our tap water is high in phosphates so I have been told. As for nitrates I thought the fish waste would be enough.


IMHO, there is "more" to algae control/prevention than just having a nutrient balanced tank. If that was the case, those with tanks where lighting, c02, nutrient levels were within "ideal" parameters would never ever experience a single algae outbreak. However, this happens all the time, even when people begin overdosing on such things as excel. What that "more" is I don't know but am on a journey to find out. Some people state that there is no avoiding algae altogether and some algae in a tank may even be indicative of a healthy tank. I have 3 tanks right now(excluding my anti-algae experimental tank) where everything(perhaps with the exception of high phosphates which I am working on) is within the theoretical "ideal" parameters, and yet I have a disgusting case of brown dust algae and green dot algae, that can only scrapped off with a credit card and even when I do that it keeps coming back. It is almost as bad as a hard water stain. Some experts contend that lack of phosphates contributes to green dust and possibly brown dust algae, and yet my phosphates are through the roof. Go figure.

Having said that I believe that lack of nutrients or excessive nutrients in relation to plant density, starting a tank with unhealthy plants, poor lighting, lack of C02(in some cases or lack of Carbon in the form of Fluorish Excel) all work jointly or in some mysterious ways to contribute to algae formation.

Here is an excellent article and guide relating to why algae occurs and what you can do about it. While I don't agree with everything posted in that article, I believe much of it rings true. 
*http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_algae.php*


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## netcode (Aug 14, 2007)

Well tonight I cleaned the tank. Here is what I have done and what I plan on doing to combat this Algae.

I have added some more Limnophila (what I think is limnophila at least), a bunch more in the left corner of the tank. I removed an old Sword that seemed to me to be slowing down its growth, and added about 10 groups of Limnophila. on the tropica website it says with co2 and good substrate it grows fast, well I don't have a whole lot of co2 but it seems to do very well in my tank and grows super fast so I hope this will combat the algae. 

I have also totally cleaned and removed most of the algae. I scooped out a lot of the sand that was covered in algae and replaced it with some clean stuff.

I also plan to dose potassium at half the dose I use to do. I think I will keep most of the other ferts the same as I want to isolate the problem. If the half dose of potassium doesn't show much effect I will cut back on the Iron then the flourish. I will not cut back the excel as I can't see there being any possibility of it causing algae, its such a low dosage.

Will update as things come along.



and Homer, from what I understand, brown and green "dust" or "spotted" algae as you call it are actually diatoms. I think there is an article on Tom Barr's website regarding diatoms. Check it out.. or just do some research on the web.


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

netcode said:


> ..and Homer, from what I understand, brown and green "dust" or "spotted" algae as you call it are actually diatoms. I think there is an article on Tom Barr's website regarding diatoms. Check it out.. or just do some research on the web.


Okay, unless this is some kind of mutant glue like diatom, I don't believe these are diatoms. Having reviewed the research(thanks for the suggestion, but I am ahead of you on that one) had aquariums for over 9 years and having set up numerous aquariums, I have seen diatoms. They usually form towards the end of the cycling process, not 3 months later. They are also a more sh*t brown color as opposed to a dirt color. Also, diatoms can easily be wiped off with a sponge. Ottos will devour diatoms within a matter of days. In the tanks that I am talking about, I have Ottos and they cannot even make a dent in this stuff. The snails despite their best efforts continue to slide around this stuff and also cannot make a dent in this stuff. Like I said, it is the equivalent of hard water stains and requires a credit card to scrape off. Diatom algae can easily be wiped off and ottos have no problems scraping it off and consuming it. Like I said, the ottos in the tank where I have the brown dust algae cannot even make a dent in this stuff. I sometimes will see a otto giving it his best and struggling to scrape it off in vain. Then he will leave all distraught without making a dent in the algae.

And as you yourself mentioned diatoms usually go away on their own if you don't do anything, they don't permanently attach themselves to your aquarium like glue. Experts say diatoms can be caused by lack of light(my tanks have proper lighting duration and intensity), excess nitrates(my nitrates are in the ideal range), or too much silicates in the tap water(don't know in my case as I have no way to test for silicates).


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## deepdiver (May 30, 2006)

I'd say up the Co2, and lessen the liquid ferts for a couple weeks


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Homer_Simpson said:


> ....
> Here is an excellent article and guide relating to why algae occurs and what you can do about it. While I don't agree with everything posted in that article, I believe much of it rings true.
> *http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_algae.php*


Not do be contrary, but this article is not one I'd recommend. He talks about limiting PO4 and NO3 as an algea control method... "When we keep the water born nutrients limited, especially phosphate and nitrate, algae will have a hard time getting a foothold on your tank".

When he talks about essential nutrients for plants he forgets carbon. And then later states that CO2 "stimulates" plant growth... it doesn't stimulate plant growth; carbon is a major building block of plant tissue.

IMO the article propagates more confusion (and myth) than necessary.

Here's a far better source of basic info (and very straightforward too!):

www.rexgrigg.com


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

Laith said:


> Not do be contrary, but this article is not one I'd recommend. He talks about limiting PO4 and NO3 as an algea control method... "When we keep the water born nutrients limited, especially phosphate and nitrate, algae will have a hard time getting a foothold on your tank".
> 
> When he talks about essential nutrients for plants he forgets carbon. And then later states that CO2 "stimulates" plant growth... it doesn't stimulate plant growth; carbon is a major building block of plant tissue.
> 
> ...


While I respect what you are saying, I am not totally convinced that "limiting" not "eliminating" P04 in the water column would not limit algae. I go my own experience and observation and don't always believe everything I read. One needs to test and experiment to see if something applies in their situation. After process of elimination, with everything else being within the alleged "ideal" parameter levels, including C02, I have narrowed it down to the fact that my excessively high phosphate levels may be responsible for some of my algae problems. And yes, I did calibrate my phosphate test kit as per HoppyCalif's suggestion. So sorry, but I am not convinced that limiting not eliminating p04 is a bad thing. Also, there is discussion in the EI natural section, where some posters claim to have no issues with algae or plant growth with zero nitrates - just something else to ponder.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

There are many ways to grow plants, all of them tied to how much light you are using. If you go with low light, the "el Natural" method works for a lot of people. If you go with high light, the EI method of fert dosing works for a lot of people. In between, there are many options, and probably all of those work for some people.

Few of us have the inclination, the time, the space, and the patience, let alone the knowledge, to do careful testing to determine the effects of the things we could do in an aquarium. One of those who has all of those is Tom Barr. He has thoroughly proven that high phosphates, as long as you aren't talking about 20X the recommended amounts, does not cause algae. In fact, low phosphates will cause algae if you have high light intensity, by starving the plants so the algae can start up.

We are all free to do our own experimenting and to adopt any fertilizing or other method we wish for our aquarium. One very helpful thing we can do is to report on what we do and what results we see, so the rest of us can evaluate it. Also, it is extremely helpful if we are all willing to change our minds when it seems appropriate - I am an expert at that!


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

hoppycalif said:


> ...Also, it is extremely helpful if we are all willing to change our minds when it seems appropriate - I am an expert at that!


Well said, Hoppy!


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## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

hoppycalif said:


> ...Few of us have the inclination, the time, the space, and the patience, let alone the knowledge, to do careful testing to determine the effects of the things we could do in an aquarium...


Very true. That is why if one finds someone in their city who has a beautiful planted tank, with lush growth, no algae, then one can do some detective work and take notes re: the size of the tank, lighting used(types of tubes/duration/intensity) type of substrate, C02(bubbles per second), stocking density(number and types of fish), type and number of plants used, whether the person uses tap water or RO water, any special additives and dosage(fluorish excel), frequency of water changes, and type of fertilization scheme used. This would take a lot of guesswork out of what one would need to do to successfully grow aquariumplants. Of course the bigger question is once someone discovered what work was involved in starting up and maintaining such a set up, would they still be willing to undergo the trouble and use that set-up as a template for starting a planted tank?

Regards


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Very true. That is why if one finds someone in their city who has a beautiful planted tank, with lush growth, no algae, then one can do some detective work and take notes re: the size of the tank, lighting used(types of tubes/duration/intensity) type of substrate, C02(bubbles per second), stocking density(number and types of fish), type and number of plants used, whether the person uses tap water or RO water, any special additives and dosage(fluorish excel), frequency of water changes, and type of fertilization scheme used. This would take a lot of guesswork out of what one would need to do to successfully grow aquariumplants. Of course the bigger question is once someone discovered what work was involved in starting up and maintaining such a set up, would they still be willing to undergo the trouble and use that set-up as a template for starting a planted tank?
> 
> Regards


A problem we face when trying to duplicate someone else's successful tank is knowing what is important and what isn't. For example, if I have a beautiful, successful tank (in my dreams) and one of the things I do is drop a 1 mg tablet of Vitamin A into the tank once a month, someone may well think that is the critical thing, not even noticing that I am carefully pruning and cleaning the tank every Saturday, without fail. So, copying another's method is a great starting point, but eventually we all have to learn what is important and what isn't.


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## netcode (Aug 14, 2007)

thanks for the posts everyone. some good feedback. Some of the things I have learned and read about since this situation arose is that ultimately we need to provide the proper amount of nutrients that the plants need, when excess exists algae begins to grow. Excess nutrients can come from a lot of things such as the slowing of plant growth, overdose in nutrients. Each tank is different and I guess you have to find that balance in your own tank as each tank differs. 

I think this has been a good experience. And in the last few days I seem to be taking a much bigger interest in actually getting rid of this algae and finding that balance. So thank you all


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

netcode said:


> thanks for the posts everyone. some good feedback. Some of the things I have learned and read about since this situation arose is that ultimately we need to provide the proper amount of nutrients that the plants need, *when excess exists algae begins to grow*. Excess nutrients can come from a lot of things such as the slowing of plant growth, overdose in nutrients.


The highlighted statement above just isn't true. Excess nutrients do not cause algae to grow, unless you are talking about ammonia. Any amount of ammonia is excessive, and small "doses" of ammonia will certainly trigger algae growth. But, there is plenty of evidence that simply having more nutrients than the plants can consume will not cause algae to grow. And, that is a very good thing - otherwise we would face an impossible task of exactly matching the availability of all nutrients at all times to the needs of the plants.


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## netcode (Aug 14, 2007)

A few things make me wonder about your reply...

why is it that its recommended that you plant fast growing plants to combat algae and/or plant heavily? why is it that mr barr's technique of heavily feeding requires a water change?
why do many sources of information attribute excess nutrients as a cause of an algae bloom/growth?

sure there may be other things that make algae grow.. but if there is a build up of excess nutrients, will algae not grow? if so then everything I have been reading and been told is wrong.. which i don't think is the case.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

netcode said:


> A few things make me wonder about your reply...
> 
> why is it that its recommended that you plant fast growing plants to combat algae and/or plant heavily? why is it that mr barr's technique of heavily feeding requires a water change?
> why do many sources of information attribute excess nutrients as a cause of an algae bloom/growth?
> ...


The reason for planting fast growing plants initially is because they quickly consume any ammonia that appears in the tank, before algae spores can sense it and start growing.

Tom Barr's EI method of heavily feeding requires a weekly 50% water change to avoid going way over the top with fertilizers. It is a way to be sure you will not get far too much of any fertilizer when you dose more than enough for a week.

Tom Barr has done many tests to demonstrate that excessive nutrients will not start algae growing. At one time it was universally accepted that phosphates in anything but very low concentrations would start algae blooms, and excess nitrates would probably do the same. He was never once able to start an algae bloom by overdosing either of those nutrients. And, today, many, many of us use his EI dosing method, which is based on those tests, with great success.

Depending on what you have been reading, it is very likely that everything you have been reading or everything you have been told is wrong. Over the past 10 years the whole "science" of growing aquatic plants has evolved, and most of what was believed ten years ago has been found to be untrue.

It is just the nature of this hobby that if you stop keeping up on what is happening you will probably find a great deal of what you have learned is not true. That is one of the most interesting things about the hobby.


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## netcode (Aug 14, 2007)

> Tom Barr's EI method of heavily feeding requires a weekly 50% water change to avoid going way over the top with fertilizers. It is a way to be sure you will not get far too much of any fertilizer when you dose more than enough for a week.


That doesn't state why you want to avoid the build up of excess nutrients

PS hoppy you have yet to provide any suggestion for a solution to the initial problem. All you have done is tell everyone they are wrong. and the suggestions I did get were... go figure... lower my nutrients.

Anyways thanks for all the posts everyone. just close the thread


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