# LiveBearers & Seachem LiveBearer Salt



## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Has anyone noticed using this product or something similar keeping or helping to keep their Guppies, Goldfish, Bettas, Mollies, Endler's or some other livebearers or fish healthy? 

I understand that keeping the hydrometer reading between 1.003 and 1.008 is recommended while keeping plants in the tanks along with the fish. 

I would love to hear from those that keep either brackish fish or otherwise and just hear other people's experience. 

Because I find Seachem LiveBearer Salt relatively hard to find I am considering using something similar if anyone has any ideas. 

Please let me know. I would like to do what is best for my fish. :smile:

Jim


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Best thing you can do for your fish is to maintain clean water. 50% water change each week would be ideal. Fish appreciates clean water with stable parameters. Translation...tap water that's within 5F of the tank's water. Don't add chemicals to tweak the water chemistry unless you need to do so to nourish your plants. All fish will learn to acclimate to the local tap water.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

furballi, thank you for your post.

Then why does SO MUCH information on Live Bearers, Goldfish, Bettas, etc say that it is healthier for them to have 'some' or 'a little' bit of salt in the water?

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/LiveBearersalt.html

The product page also says that Seachem Live Bearer Salt- "actually provides many nutrients crucial to healthy plant growth." - "Live Bearer Salt™ can also be dosed for general brackish water community aquariums and general freshwater community aquarium."

I am just trying to learn as much about this as I can. I have done pretty well with my fish so far, but I figure that the better I take care of the water conditions - the longer they will live. (Maybe 5+ years instead of 2+ years).

Also with what I keep reading about the diseases that fish carry in the market place that we as hobbyists are not aware of unless we have access to a friend that is a Marine Biologist or very, very, very knowledgeable; I was hoping that this salinity may reduce disease and increase my fishes health.

Just an idea. I wonder what Betty or Salt would know about this. Hmmm.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

This is what Seachem were able to tell me when I asked them. "Regarding the advantages of Livebearer Salt over other aquarium salts, Livebearer Salt is safe and beneficial to use in planted aquariums in that it supplies essential minerals (i.e. magnesium) to aquatic plants while providing the ideal brackish environment for livebearers such as mollies. Minerals such as magnesium found in our salt are crucial for plant health and growth; physiologically, aquatic plants primarily take magnesium and others such as calcium and potassium from the water and not from their roots--likewise for carbon dioxide." That is not their entire response. But now I am curious what it is made of. Epsom Salts? 

I know from Tom Barr's July 2006 report about Sodium and Chloride that sodium is what causes problems for plants (maybe not rice plants so much), but chloride is actually quite useful to plants. 

I am trying to figure out what other kinds of salts there are.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Like I said, if you don't need extra nutrients for plants, then you don't need to tweak the water for your fish. It's all marketing! Yes, livebearers can tolerate a higher % of salt, but that salt is the same salt that you can purchase at the grocery store. The problem with dosing is the concentration of salt will vary with evaporation and water change.

KISS. Use dechlorinated tap water at the right temperature. If you want the best condition for your fish, then change the water 2 to 3x per week. The life expectancy of fish is highly dependent on clean water and fresh food. It is rare for guppies and Bettas to live more than 3 years.


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## riverspryte (Sep 16, 2006)

*Endler's*

The only problem that I ever had with my Endler's, was that they wouldn't stop breeding!!! I never put anything extra into the tank, and the fish were just fine.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> but that salt is the same salt that you can purchase at the grocery store.


 No, that would be sodium chloride. The sodium in grocery store salt is harmful to plants.



> It is rare for guppies and Bettas to live more than 3 years.


 Thank you. Now I feel better. I guess I get attached and 3 years nowadays flies by like it was a day. I guess I am doing everything right then.



> It's all marketing!


 Yeah, I was wondering about that....

furballi & riverspryte, thank you both very much for your help and experiences with this!

Jim


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> All fish will learn to acclimate to the local tap water.


I'm sorry but this is wrong.

MOST fish may be able to live very happily in the stuff that comes out of the tap but there are some fish that need certain water parameters.
Tanganyikan or Malawian fish kept in acidic water will die. They don't need water as hard as they have in nature, but they must have alkaline water.
Hard water fish do not need 'salt' (in the terms of Sodium Chloride) in their water. Some livebearers and other fish that come from Brackish water need, or appreciate, it, but that does not include things like bettas and Goldfish. Neither of these are brackish fish. The Bettas come from Soft waters in the wild. Goldfish like hard water, but not brackish. The fact that these fish can cope with unnatural salt and harder tap water is testament to their toughness and adaptability.

The other problem with tap water, and the reason I use RO water in all my tanks, is that it can also come with high levels of things like metals, Nitrates (though American levels are regulated to below 10ppm if I remember rightly) and Phosphates.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Ed, don't stop. Good stuff. Keep going. I am trying to find as much information as possible about this. 

This is good stuff. I am eating this up. 

Thank you for your help and patience with my questions. 

Jim


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Thanks Jimbo,
Your fish should be fine in your tap water. Furballi is right about good clean tap water. If that's what you have then make use of it! Personally mine isn't! So I have to do something about it, hence RO and remineralising it.

Your livebearers (guppies right?) will do best in moderately hard water with an alkaline pH. Generally that is what comes out of the taps over here. The only problem is our tap water can have up to 50ppm Nitrate plus other garbage and chlorine and chloramine.

Your betta will be fine in tap water too. But originally, many, many generations ago, they came fromk soft, mineral poor water. Personally most of my fish are wild, or only a few generations from wild so I make it my aim, for the same reasons you seem to have (the best for your fish), to replicate their water in a broad way. I can't exactly do this as my tanks contain fish from the Amazon and West Africa (as well as some presumably captive bred SAEs).

I would test your tap water if you're worried about things, but it sound slike your fish are doing great.

PS. when I kept Tanganyikans I used RO water. I added RO Right to up the GH, but I also naturally boosted the KH and GH by adding Coral gravel or sand that would dissolve and boost the hardness. Personally this is how I prefer to alter water rather than messing about with a spoonful of this or that.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Okay, so this would be possibly overkill or like putting a sweater on a dog. 

Gotcha. 

There is so much chemistry to this hobby and to me I only know of one salt or where to purchase it. I mean, I know there are others theoretically, but that was chemistry class way back around the year 1984. 

If I emerse myself in this stuff enough, eventually I will get ALL OF IT. 

In the meantime, I will ask my friends that are very smart and work in the chemistry field, botany or biological sciences. 

The best for my plants and fishies if I can afford it, you know?


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## Fortuna Wolf (Feb 3, 2007)

Well, there are thousands of salts, technically. 
I'm not sure what they put in the aquarium salts... this one I have here says its natural sea salt... 
Whoopdedoo, I can go down to the local grocery and buy some of the same stuff. Its pretty much noniodized NaCl with additional trace salts. 
There's Epsom salts, which is MgSO4, good for treating constipation (And adding magnesium). 
CaCl2 adds gH and CaCO3 adds kH, IIRC.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

I doubt that this special salt is anything but NaCl. It is very rare to get tap water in the US that's much lower than 6.5 pH. I don't have Tanganyikan but I know that the fish will take 6.8 pH tap water from the northeast without any ill-effect. People make such a big stink about the importance of pH on fish's biology. 

My tank is filled with cardinals and neons...native to 5 to 6 pH water with very low DH and KH (almost pure rain water). The local tap has about 30 ppm Nitrate, with 8.2 pH, 10 KH, and traces of arsenic. The neons are dropping eggs every few days. I even managed to siphon a few eggs from the community tank immediately after fertilization and moved them to a distilled water hatchery with 6.5 pH. That's a crude/inefficient way to breed neons.

The oldest cardinal is approaching 8 years old.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

furballi said:


> I doubt that this special salt is anything but NaCl. It is very rare to get tap water in the US that's much lower than 6.5 pH. I don't have Tanganyikan but I know that the fish will take 6.8 pH tap water from the northeast without any ill-effect. People make such a big stink about the importance of pH on fish's biology.


I agree pH may be over-rated for most fish. I have suspected this with reference to pH crashes. I think whatever causes the pH to crash (which can't be a lack of KH - something still has to add extra H ions into the water!) is the thing that kills, or stresses, fish.

However for some species it does seem, from many years of many people keeping them, that an acidic pH, even very slightly acidic, causes them serious stress and death! It MAY be to with the toxicity of ammonia at these pHs, but the effect is the same.



furballi said:


> My tank is filled with cardinals and neons...native to 5 to 6 pH water with very low DH and KH (almost pure rain water). The local tap has about 30 ppm Nitrate, with 8.2 pH, 10 KH, and traces of arsenic. The neons are dropping eggs every few days. I even managed to siphon a few eggs from the community tank immediately after fertilization and moved them to a distilled water hatchery with 6.5 pH. That's a crude/inefficient way to breed neons.
> 
> The oldest cardinal is approaching 8 years old.


Fish from softer water do seem to be able to cope with harder water much better than the other way round. A lot of time this is because they actually come from waters where the water is actually much harder for at least part of the year and they have evolved to deal with this. In the dry season even in the Amazon, a lot of fish get trapped in shallow pools where evaporation will lead to the mineral levels in the water rising significantly.

Some of the aquarium favourites are spread over such a large range that they may be present in areas where the water is harder too. And many others, like the Neon Tetras you mentioned, are so captive bred now that their water qualitity tolerance may bear little resemblance than those of the original wild tetras.

However while some soft water fish may show greater tolerance others will not. Many, many species of soft water fish will not breed in harder water, or else why would we bother softening the water? My cardinals have bred, by accident, in their quarantine tank and I have 35 new cardinals now! I have never heard of them successfully breeding in hard water. (BTW my pH was 5.5, 0dKH, 3dGH).


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Great stuff. I am soaking this up like crazy. 

Fortuna Wolf, which ones can I purchase in my local stores, which are good for my plants and live bearers, and what do I ask for in the stores? (Most stores I shop in know less than I do about this stuff and need a brand or 'common' name.)

Thank you for your help with this. 

I really, really appreciate this. 

Jim


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

What's your tap water like Jim? If it's hard then just use that, if it isn't and you need to add hardness either use Seachem Equilibrium (if you want to be able to carefully control adding a small amount of hardness) or just add a small amount of Aragonite to your filter. It will slowly dissolve and add the minerals to your water until your pH gets to about 8 when it will be unable to dissolve further, until your water pH drosp again! If you don't want it this hard (and your betta may not appreciate that) add only a few grains at a time and check the water regularly.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Interesting. Argonite is a substrate used in Salt Water, Reef and Marine tanks, correct? I know Seachem Onyx has similar properties (in general). 

My water is pretty hard, GH high, KH good. 

I just wanted to 'spoil' my live bearers by having salinity to where it should be while learning so 'home made' El Naturale chemistry. Thank you for your help. I'll get this stuff down eventually.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I understand where you're coming from Jim, wanting the best for your fish. It's just that livebearers, aside from a few exceptions, aren't brackish fish and don't need NaCl in their water. It is added by loads of people for various prophylactic reasons as far as I can see. In their natural waters most live in clean, hard water - just like your tap water!

Aragonite is the stuff used in reef tanks, for the same reasons to boost the KH and GH and add calcium and other minerals to the water. It dissolves at a slightly lower pH than coral sand hence is preferred by some people for that purpose.

I think by going so far to ask these kind of questions you're showing that you really have their best interests at heart. If you really want to spoil them get them great food (I find all fish love frozen food like bloodworm or live food like Microworms, Mosquito larva, daphnia and baby Brine shrimp) and keep up the water changes!


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## Fortuna Wolf (Feb 3, 2007)

Magnesium Sulfate is Epsom Salt. I've been trying unsuccessfully to treat a really bad case of constipation in my betta with it. I think the betta's gonna burst. (And no, I haven't been feeding him anything for the past week). 

Calcium chloride can be found as a dessicant or de-icer. 

Calcium carbonate is baking soda. 

Sea salt is well, sea salt. 

There's not really any other reason to look for other salts that I know of.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

*Epsom Salts & Betta*

Please tell me you are kidding about the Betta and the reason for the Epsom Salts. ound:


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## Fortuna Wolf (Feb 3, 2007)

No, he's seriously huge. I had him in a tank with some goldfish and he was beating the goldfish to the flake food and his belly is the size of a grape now.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

I would ask Betty, quick! (DataGuru) She knows a lot about goldfish and Bettas; and who else may know. 

I hope he is okay. Let us know.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Fortuna Wolf said:


> ...
> 
> Calcium carbonate is baking soda.
> 
> ...


Just a correction... Baking Soda is Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), not Calcium carbonate.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

sodium bicarbonate is baking soda. It raises KH.
Calcium carbonate can be bought in tablets in the vitamin section. It will increase both KH and GH, but doesn't dissolve as well as calcium chloride.

I doubt it's constipation. I'd lean more toward dropsy (kidney failure) or polycystic kidney disease.

I think the issues of hardwater fish not tolerating soft water revolve around the lack of calcium in the water which is very important for osmoregulation.
http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5427

Seachem doesn't give a breakout of the livebearer salt on their website, but their description suggests it's similar to sea salt.

What livebearers do you have?


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## Fortuna Wolf (Feb 3, 2007)

It didn't have the symptoms of dropsy, his scales were still pressed to his sides and my girlfriend who's had bettas with dropsy says it was nothing like it. 
Anyhow, even without feeding his belly burst around the anus and I found him dead on the bottom of the tank this morning. 
I'm going to stick a sponge filter on the intake, add some daphnia and let the tank cycle for a month or something.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Sorry to hear that. 

I'd nuke it and start fresh.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Fortuna Wolf, Wow. I have never heard of anything like that. I am sorry to hear about your loss.

Dataguru, I am down to one last Silver Molly. She may have TB, she has a permanently swollen belly but except for that she still looks beautiful.

I am currently raising 7 baby Endler fry and expect to have many, many little fish in the future.

A friend that published a report on sodium and chloride last July explained to me that salinity may be beneficial to fish at times, but plants TOLERATE salinity AT TIMES, but never thrive in it. The key word he stressed was tolerate.

I have gotten through the marketing fluff and gotten back to researching other things. There are still other things in brackish tanks that I will explore later. I have heard that www.seanursery.com is very good. I have read it a bit once. I will go back to it again in the future.


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## Fortuna Wolf (Feb 3, 2007)

I now remember an experiment we did in plant physiology lab. We put Myriophyllum into sealed containers of varying salinities and put them into the sun for several hours in a cool water bath. Then we tested the dissolved oxygen concentrations - tap water did best, and you had a lowering of oxygen conc until no change and then using up the oxygen that was in the water. I think the moral of the story is: no salt is best. 

If theres enough interest I might be able to repeat this and give you the data.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Point taken.


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## hernandezgeovannie (9 mo ago)

furballi said:


> Like I said, if you don't need extra nutrients for plants, then you don't need to tweak the water for your fish. It's all marketing! Yes, livebearers can tolerate a higher % of salt, but that salt is the same salt that you can purchase at the grocery store. The problem with dosing is the concentration of salt will vary with evaporation and water change.
> 
> KISS. Use dechlorinated tap water at the right temperature. If you want the best condition for your fish, then change the water 2 to 3x per week. The life expectancy of fish is highly dependent on clean water and fresh food. It is rare for guppies and Bettas to live more than 3 years.


 wow this is great to know so It's rare that my betta is 4 years and 3 months old??? and instead of addeing saalt can I add Eliqulibrium from seachem thx!


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