# How much light with Flourish Excel?



## Dunga

Hi,
I'd like some sugestions about Excel and lighting. Should I use less than 2 w/gallon or ,with Excel, is necessary more. I've read lots of posts about TOM BARR's ideas. Does he consider Excel , a non CO2 method? Using Excel in a non CO2 tank is enough, or I have to consider some fertilization?


Thanks


Dunga


----------



## random_alias

.I asked a similar question before.



random_alias said:


> How does Excel compare to Co2 gas being diffused to a 30ppm level?
> 
> I have a 10 gallon and I'm planning on running 55w over it and would like to grow HC and pearlweed.
> 
> Is there a safe dosage rate for Excel that would give me the same results as actively injecting 30ppm Co2?
> 
> For this setup and tank size, would Excel get me medium to fast growth without algae probs?





Tom Barr said:


> I'd say about 1/3 as effective as CO2, you do not see much if any pearling.
> It does seem to do very well at keeping algae growth down nonetheless.
> 
> For moderate growth med-low light, this works well generally on smaller tanks.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Plants with high light, good ferts and good injected Co2 levels grow at, what, 5x the speed of low light, non enriched tanks? If that's so and Excel is 1/3 as effective, then an Excel tank should grow maybe 1.5x the speed of a non-carbon-enriched environment?

Excel is a non co2 method because Co2 gas isn't involved. However, it is a method of enriching the environment with carbon. It's just a different form of carbon that doesn't work as well as the gaseous method of transport, but does work better than using no carbon at all. The carbon enrichment from Excel will not keep up with a high light environment like Co2 injection can.

If you are using Co2 you dose EI at 100% of the recommendation (or as a starting point before customizing it over time to match your tank if you choose to). WHen using Excel and EI, dosing EI at 50% of the standard recommendation is a better starting point. That should give you some idea of how Excel compares to Co2.

Using excel, I would say use medium-low light, dose Excel at 1.5x up to no more than 2x the manufacturer's recommendation and if you dose EI dose it at 50%.

That's what I do in my 1.3g and 2.5g. They seem to be doing well. I also run a 55g with very high levels of Co2 gas.

Excel is not a replacement for Co2. It falls somewhere inbetween doing nothing and pumping gas.


----------



## stcyrwm

Dunga said:


> Hi,
> I'd like some sugestions about Excel and lighting. Should I use less than 2 w/gallon or ,with Excel, is necessary more. I've read lots of posts about TOM BARR's ideas. Does he consider Excel , a non CO2 method? Using Excel in a non CO2 tank is enough, or I have to consider some fertilization?
> Thanks Dunga


You should keep it at or below 2 wpg with Excel and no CO2. Tom includes Excel in his options at the end of his main article on "Non CO2 Methods". You should look this up on his site "barrreport.com". I believe it is in the non member section. He definetely recommends fertilization with or without Excel in non co2 tanks. The last thread I read on this he was recommending 50% weekly water change on Excel tanks also. If you need help with fertilization doses let us know.

Bill


----------



## Dunga

Thank you all,

I started dosing Excel today. I've been usig DIY CO2, but had bad results as algae ( not too much) in my 25 G tank. Bacopa caroliniana and Althernanthera lilacina are the most afected. Hemianthus, Rotala macranda, Anubias nana and microsorium, doing fine. Light is a 2,4 W/G but I'll reduce it to 1,8 W/G. Fertilization will be done using Flourish only, once a week. Do you think it's ok?


Thank you again.

an APC fan!!

Dunga

Rio de Janeiro
Brazil


----------



## stcyrwm

Dunga said:


> Thank you all,
> 
> I started dosing Excel today. I've been usig DIY CO2, but had bad results as algae ( not too much) in my 25 G tank. Bacopa caroliniana and Althernanthera lilacina are the most afected. Hemianthus, Rotala macranda, Anubias nana and microsorium, doing fine. Light is a 2,4 W/G but I'll reduce it to 1,8 W/G. Fertilization will be done using Flourish only, once a week. Do you think it's ok?Thank you again.an APC fan!!Dunga
> Rio de Janeiro
> Brazil


Dunga,

A couple things. First the 2 wpg light recommendation assumes good reflectors. If your reflectors are not so good, like if they are plain white, you may do alright with 2.4 wpg. Flourish covers your trace nutrients but you also need a source for macro nutrients - nitrogen, phosphate and potassium. I've got to run but if I no one else has given you specifics I'll write more later.

Bill - Fellow APC Fan


----------



## random_alias

So when dosing ferts there are really 3 groups. In no particular order, they are carbon, Macronutrients and Micronutrients.

I consider carbon a fert because it's a building block of lifeforms and very important for plant grow. Dosing Co2 or Excel's form of carbon is essentially fertilization.

Macronutrients are, like stcyrwm said, Potassium (K), Nitrogen (usually in the form of NO3 nitrate) and Phosphate (PO4). Dosing macronutrients is usually done by the addition of two chemical compounds. The first is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3). The second is Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4). As you may have noticed, the first adds Nitrogen, the second adds Phosphate and both add Potassium.

Micronutrients are the traces, things like Iron, Magnesium, Boron, Zinc, sulfur, etc.

EI dosages were determined under ideal conditions, high light, high Co2, fast growing weeds...supercharged uptake rates. If you are using lower light, excel instead of Co2, slower growing plants, or any combination of these things, then you do not need to dose EI at full dosages. You'll we wasting ferts.

Lifted from Tom:


> Standard EI levels:
> 
> (+ or -) 5ppm of CO2 is fine in a 20-30ppm range.
> (+ or -) 1ppm or so of NO3 is pretty reasonable.
> (+ or -) 2ppm of K+ is pretty reasonable.
> (+ or -) 0.2ppm of PO4 is pretty reasonable (?)
> (+ or -) 0.1ppm of Fe is reasonable (?)
> 
> CO2 range 25-35ppm
> NO3 range 5-30ppm
> K+ range 10-30ppm
> PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm
> Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher (?)
> GH range 3 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher


The above rates were observed to be the maximum amounts of stuff that fast growing plants can eat under perfectly ideal conditions where absolutely nothing was holding them back. Consider them "Theoretical Limits".

Now, in your case, you'll want to dose EI at no more than 50% of those levels because your lighting and carbon fertilization are less than ideal and therefore limit your plants' growth speed and therefore their ability to consume fuels. BTW, there's nothing wrong with that. Faster is not necessarily better and it's bothersome to keep up with the pruning. This means that you will be shooting for 2.5-15ppm NO3, .5-1.5ppm PO4 and 5-15ppm K (Potassium). There are calculators, such as Chuck's, that let you easily compute how much KNO3 and KH2PO4 you need to add to reach your target levels. I'm sure someone else will link you if you can't find it.

You'll want to cut your Micronutrients by 50% as well.

It isn't as complicated as it sounds. Lots of fancy words and chemistry terms to describe simple concepts.

Just trying to give you the background info so when someone says, "Ok, you need to dose x amount of this and y amount of that." you'll understand why and how it fits into the big picture.


----------



## stcyrwm

Dunga said:


> Thank you all,
> 
> I started dosing Excel today. I've been usig DIY CO2, but had bad results as algae ( not too much) in my 25 G tank. Bacopa caroliniana and Althernanthera lilacina are the most afected. Hemianthus, Rotala macranda, Anubias nana and microsorium, doing fine. Light is a 2,4 W/G but I'll reduce it to 1,8 W/G. Fertilization will be done using Flourish only, once a week. Do you think it's ok?Thank you again.an APC fan!!Dunga Rio de Janeiro Brazil


Dunga,

Here are Tom Barr's dosing recommendations:

So a 20 gal using excel would get:
2 w/gal light
Dose 1/8 teaspoon KNO3 1-2x a week
KH2PO4, 1/16th, 1-2x a week
Traces, 2mls 2x a week
SeaChem EQ 1/8th once a week
50% weekly water change
Dose 1.5-2x the rec dosing for Excel.

I hope that helps. I don't know how international shipping works but I get them all from "gregwatson.com". Let us know if you need any more help.

Bill


----------



## stcyrwm

random_alias said:


> This means that you will be shooting for 2.5-15ppm NO3, .5-1.5ppm PO4 and 5-15ppm K (Potassium).


Random,

Wouldn't the target levels be the same but you'd be adding less to hit those levels? In other words the levels would still be:

NO3 range 5-30ppm
K+ range 10-30ppm
PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher (?)
GH range 3 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher

but for example instead of dosing KNO3 1 tsp /week (or 1/4 tsp 4x/week) in a 20 gallon tank high light CO2 tank, you are dosing KNO3 1/4 tsp/week (or 1/8 tsp 2x/week) in a 2 wpg Excel tank. Am I understanding this alright? My sense is that most importantly you don't want to go below the low end of the range for any of these ferts in any tank. If I have something confused please let me know.

Thanks,

Bill


----------



## random_alias

If you dose half the amounts just as often, you are adding 50% of the normal nutrient ranges. The plant uptake is supposed to be consistent so if they are growing slower because light and Carbon is at lower levels than they were in the fast growth tanks EI was developed in, then you shouldn't need the same levels of nutrients in your water at any given time because your plants can't eat as much and you will have nutrient buildup more than in a tank where the stuff is getting used at faster rates. If you dose less often then you still need to divide your amount into the 7 days of the week to compare apples to apples.



Tom said:


> A Typical Tank
> A typical routine for a high light tank with low fish load:
> Volume 80 liters (20 gal high standard tank)
> 5.5 watts/ gal. - two 55watt 5000K/8800K lamps
> CO2-25-30ppm (I turn my CO2 off at night)
> Canister filter
> Fluorite (any porous iron rich material will do) about 7-10cm depth
> 
> A Typical Dosing Routine
> 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 3-4x a week (every other day)
> 1/16th-1/32nd teaspoon of KH2PO4 3-4x a week (every other day)
> Traces added on off days as the macro nutrients, so 3x a week, 5mls each time.
> SeaChem Equilibrium 1/8 teaspoon after water change.





Tom said:


> Excel can use EI directly at about 1/4 dosing amounts 2x a week and likely be extended up to 2-4 weeks water changes. But if you have issues or want to keep things looking good and on top of it, do weekly water changes and see how well you can get the tank looking, then try backing off the water changes later if you wish.
> 
> So a 20 gal using excel would get:
> 2 w/gal light
> Dose 1/8 teaspoon KNO3 1-2x a week
> KH2PO4, 1/16th, 1-2x a week
> Traces, 2mls 2x a week
> SeaChem EQ 1/8th once a week
> 50% weekly water change
> Dose 1.5-2x the rec dosing for Excel.


So if you shoot for 50% of standard EI and compare that to what Tom recommends for Excel tanks, the dosages compare like this:

.375 tsp KNO3 vs .25
.0938 tsp KH2PO4 vs .0625
7 ml traces vs 4ml (that's a big diff between what I'm doing.)

So dosing EI on a standard schedule but at half dosage is shooting for half of the ppm ranges he listed for high light tanks. They come out about the same. I dose a little more than his Excel EI recommendations, probably because I'm not taking a reduction in light into account as well as he has. But, then again, we are dealing with ranges and my weekly changes will keep my nutrient levels probably close to where they would be in a tank that does it the other way but uses less frequent water changes.

Also, I'm dosing excel in small tanks, 1.3 and 2.5g, so I have to dose some things with a medicine dropper. For example, in my 1.3 I dose one liquid at 1.5 drops per gallon. If I use 2 drops I overdose, if I use one drop I underdose  That's why my traces are higher. I guess I'll need to mix a trace liquid to use specifically in my nanos rather than pulling it from my 55g bottle in super small amounts.

Am I being confusing, or just confused?


----------



## Dunga

Wow, I'm really impressed with your interest in this thread.

For a while I'm going to dose only Flourish and Excel, trying to simulate some of Tom Barr's ideas : low light, less ferts, excel 1.5 x normal dosage. I'll keep light at a 2,4 w/g range as I don't have a good reflectors. Let's see what happens. Here in Brazil it is very difficult to find Seachem line of products and if found they are really expensive due to the importing taxes. I'll experiment it for 1 month. I'd love have this tank running non CO2. 


Thanks again

Dunga

Rio de Janeiro
Brazil


----------

