# Filter?



## neetzi (Apr 10, 2010)

Sorry, I have so many questions! I've been reading so many things I'm confused. I set up an NPT 20 gallon long a few days ago. I didn't think I needed a filter because it would disturb the co2. But now I've just read that I need a filter to move the water around and oxygenate it. Any advice would be great.


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

No you don't. You don't need filters. I have successfully raised numerous 20 gallons and smaller tanks without water movements.
In fact, now that it's spring, I have removed the pump for my 33 gallon long. I had the pump to move the water and distribute the heat from the heater but have since unplugged that as well.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

You can actually try with or without a filter. 

I have an NPT without a filter but I admit that having too many fishes in the tank and having Kribs really mess things up - I could not avoid changing water on weekly basis. I know this is against NTP's principle but it works better for me (the fishes do not do well when I skip changing the water). I am not saying that it does not work without a filter because this is my least problematic tank.

Recently, I got a semi-NPT set up. It's semi-NPT because I supply CO2 and use a canister filter. It's still to early to tell about the condition of this tank because it's less than 1 week old. So far everything seems ok.

I always think that this hobby has a lot of debate on what works and what does not work. You will find a lot of contradicting advices. Sometimes, you'll need to experience the advices given yourself to see which one works better. That's the reason I have NPT, semi-NPT, medium tech and even tanks that depend solely on sunlight. I would love to see the difference myself  It's more interesting this way in my opinion. I even broke rules of this hobby sometimes for the sake of experiment, but I always make sure I don't end up killing every fish in the tank. 

For your case, if you have a filter. I encourage you to use it. I swear that the water condition will be better than without one.


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

I use a filter. I can't stand the yucky stuff that settles on the top if I don't move the water around.
It's designed for a 20 gallon so not a lot of movement on my 29 gallon tank. Just enough to keep the film off the top.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

neetzi said:


> But now I've just read that I need a filter to move the water around and oxygenate it. Any advice would be great.


Are your fish gasping for air? If so, you need a filter or air stone to oxygenate the water. Otherwise, they are not needed.

As to moving the water around, yes a filter helps but I would not say it is _needed_.

I like to keep things simple - add only what is needed.


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Are you overstocked with fish? Do they seem to have issues breathing?
I have dont these kind of set up with and without fitlers. It is up to you and what you set up is like as to if you "need" one or not.


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## neetzi (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you All!!! I feel much better about giving this a go without a filter! I will keep a close eye on the fish for gasping once I get them. Right now my tank is still cycling. It will be a week tomorrow and it's so hard to be patient.Thanks Again!


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## Mafoota (Mar 13, 2010)

I took my filter out recently but I think I will replace it. It doesn't 'need' it as water parameters are fine but I think the water looks just a little clearer with it and it helps circulate food around the tank to some of the less adventurous fish.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I definitely agree with Mafoota. You will surely get clearer water with a filter. Furthermore, you can use the filter media to speed up the cycling process if you decide to set up another tank.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

neetzi said:


> Right now my tank is still cycling. It will be a week tomorrow and it's so hard to be patient.


I don't cycle my tanks; I often add fish the same day of setup. Most ordinary soils contain plentiful nitrifying bacteria. It's true that tanks without plants and soil require cycling. However, NPTs generally don't--- if you use an unfertilized and unsterilized soil and a reasonable number of fish.

Remember that you can always do a water change if my advice is wrong and the fish show distress (not eating or gasping at the surface).


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Diana, I am surprised that you add fish on day one. 

To be honest, I admit that do that all of the time too (even in non-NPT) but I really don't dare to encourage anyone to try my method. It's a taboo in certain forums.  It works for me most of the time but I always use existing water, rocks and filter media from existing tank to help cycling them. Sometimes I even purposely add those dirty water from existing filter into a new tank.


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## Weq (Sep 1, 2009)

Without a filter, you just need to be more careful about decaying food and feeding fish. My ember tetra had to be trained (with guppies) to eat from the surface of the water after only liking to eat mid-water (no water movemnt makes this hard!!). I needed to meticulously and selectivly feed the fish and clean up all the scraps that fell to the ground. very hard work!

No filter is defaintly less forgiving, espically if u are aiming for no water changes either! I have successfully kept a school of ~12 tetra and some shrimp in my 7gal for 10 months now.. All the while ive only water changed about the same 7gal over the period (from siphoning food out). I do have evapouration though, and i add about 1/2 a gal of RO water a week to compensate... This stops solids from building up in the water..

That said, i dont use soil (ecocomplete) so i had to wait for my tank to cycle. It took a long time (~6weeks, 7gal) and mini-cycles alot when i add shrimp... Never had any fish deaths, and my original fish are very happy and eating well.

If its your first tank, i would recommend a filter until u get used to fish keeping. I think it takes a decent amount of time to learn the signs and look after a filter-less tank, unless u are prepared for tri-weekly water changes.. It only takes a little bit of dcaying food to f things up..


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I have to agree with Weq, if you're new to this hobby, having a filter is better. I actually still perform weekly water changes in my NPT. I broke the rules of NPT but it works better for me - my tank is over crowded with too many fishes and the Kribs dig the substrate very often. So, you can imagine the mess of the tank if I run it without any filter and without any water changes. I could actually see symptom of potential problem by skipping 1 week of water changes in my NPT. So, I go for what works for me.


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

totziens said:


> Diana, I am surprised that you add fish on day one.
> 
> To be honest, I admit that do that all of the time too (even in non-NPT) but I really don't dare to encourage anyone to try my method. It's a taboo in certain forums.  It works for me most of the time but I always use existing water, rocks and filter media from existing tank to help cycling them. Sometimes I even purposely add those dirty water from existing filter into a new tank.


For people who use well water or water that don't have additives like chlorine/chloramines, fish can be added right after the tank is filled, otherwise you have dead fish soon. The chlorinated water also kills many bacteria from the soil substrate and set them back a bit. My city water has chlorine in it, I usually let it air out for 24 hours before adding fauna. Dechlorinating products can be used without the wait period, but it can be expensive for a large aquarium.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Chlorine is one of the most basic thing to consider in this hobby. It will definitely kill the fishes instantly if there's chlorine in your water. 

It's not applicable for my case unfortunately because I use anti-chlorine (most of us do). Chlorine is the first thing to get rid of before you add any living thing in a tank. The main concern of not adding fishes instantly is not because of chlorine. Chlorine issue can be easily fixed - anti-chlorine is cheap in my country. The main issue is cycling the tank with good bacteria. There is a workaround to speed it up as well with the help from existing filter media obtained from healthy tank - I don't trust the bacteria in a bottle.


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

Or more exactly, ammonia and nitrite, which should not be a problem in El Natural since soil has plenty of good bacteria, plus plants are there to help right at the beginning, provided the fish load is balanced. If not for the chlorine or similar harmful substances, there is no need to wait for cycling period with this method. It sounded like you used non-soil substrate so you seeded and waited for the bacteria to grow?


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Actually, I would not recommend any beginner or someone with only 1 tank at home to add fish straight away. The risk is too high if the person is unfamiliar with identifying any problematic symptom encountered by the poor fish or there's no alternative water for the poor fish to be transferred to when there's a problem.

I actually have multiple tanks (8 tanks to be exact)  Only 2 of them are related to NPT:

Tank number 1:
- I use top soil but I top it with Holland sand to prevent cloudiness in the tank. I didn't add any fish instantly but I added more than 2 dozens of fishes in the 15 gallon tank within days. I know this is crazy but I did not have a choice. My friend actually gave me his fishes to be adopted. I actually did not plan to have so many fishes out of a sudden. Maybe I was just lucky that the casualties was very low during the initial set up- I only lost a Molly fry. This is one of the least problematic tanks I've owned. No filter. No CO2. No fertiliser except for occasional Potassium added. 55 watt PL is used. Not exposed to sunlight.

Tank number 2:
- This tank was converted to use clay loam (formerly I was using only Holland sand and root tab). It's a semi-NPT because I use CO2 and canister filter. I use clay loam purchased from the nursery after failing to find top soil. I topped it up with Holland sand too. I reused the old filter (meaning I did not wash it). I also collected existing water to mix with new water with anti-chlorine added. It's almost 2 weeks old. Added fishes since day one but only about 7 of them in a 15 gallon tank. No casualty so far. So far, only Potassium has been added. 55 watt PL is used. Not exposed to sunlight.

I have a few other non-NPT tanks that I set up using filter media or just by merely using water from other tank. All of my tanks are planted except one. Most of them I added fishes since day one. The casualty is close to zero.

Honestly, when I re-started this hobby about 7 years ago with only 1 tank with guppies and I also added fish since day one. The casualty was very high. I didn't know much about cycling the tank then. By the way, this is not a NPT. It's not even planted. Therefore I mention earlier that I will not recommend any beginner or someone with only 1 tank at home to try adding fish during day one.


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

This thread has gone from filter to whole aquarium keeping. I still maintain no need for filter. I have yet to have any filter related problems. It's a hassle to have filter with cleaning and such even if you don't have any filter media associated with it. I recommend that for beginner or non beginner. As for the food on the bottom, you are probably feeding too much. Less is better when it comes to feeding fish. They don't need much food and if they are hungry, they will eat any uneaten food. Survival instinct will trump all. As for adding fish on day 1, I recommend that for beginner and non beginner as well. I have yet to have problem for NPT tanks just as the our guru Walstad mentioned. As for chlorine in water this is basic aquarium keeping 101. You don't put fish in chlorinate water this is by definition NOT NPT setup or any fish setup for that matter. Use dechlorinator. Aging tap water is not a good option and is last resort as it may take many weeks or longer to get rid of all chlorine.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I doubt it will take weeks for chlorine to be removed from the water. Usually it takes 24 hours if you're not using anti-chlorine. I do agree with Alex that sometimes they add more chlorine than they usually do, that may increase to more than 24 hours for the chlorine to be removed.


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

totziens chlorine is volatile and will leave water in 24 hours and even faster with air stone. However when in general, when we refer to chlorinate water, we also imply chloramine as well. Chloramine is non-volatile and stays in water a long time. It depends on your source water but my tap water will have chloramine as should most source tap water.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

The expense of dechlor is a myth. 
You can find dechlorinator for roughly 2 cents per 10 gallons of water treated. Even if I did a 100% water change on all my tanks (about 800 gallons worth) it would not cost more than a couple of dollars in dechlor. 

Chloramine Buster, available at Pet Smart costs about $16.00 a 16 ounce bottle and that bottle treats 8000 gallons. Breaks the chlorine-ammonia bond, and locks up both chlorine and ammonia. I measure it out with an eyedropper. 

There are powdered dechlorinating products available for even less, intended for very large ponds. (These cheapest powdered products are for treating chlorine, not chloramine. Powders that treat chloramine are about the same price as Chloramine Buster)


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I am unfamiliar with chloramine honestly. I am not sure whether it's in the tap water of my country but I use a product called Genesis which is pretty well known in my country. It claims to neutralise harmful chlorine & heavy metal from tap water. Nothing is mentioned about chloramine but so far all my tanks have no issue. The following is a link to the product I've found online:

http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-12951


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

I use AmQuel Plus it's cheap and seems to work for me. It has a sulfer smelly smell but it works. I have the 16 fl oz one like here
http://www.amazon.com/Kordon-AmQuel-Plus-16-oz/dp/B000256EBM

According to the instruction, 5ml per 10 gallon so treat about 940 gallon for $9. Or a penny a gallon...not a bad price. So much easier to get the water from tap and mix a little bit of amquel and put into the aquarium right away instead of wait a period of time.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

The product called Genesis is quite confusing. My bottle did not mention that it removes chloramine but my friend's mentions it removes chloramine. The information is confusing! 

I believe AmQuel is unavailable in Malaysia. I have never seen it before. Seachem Prime is available in Malaysia but very costly.


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