# New and looking for some help



## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Hello all! first off I would like to introduce myself, my name is Matt, and this is my first post on this forum. Im fairly new to planted tanks but have been playing around for the past 2 years or so and have made great progress and enjoy the hobby very much thus far. I have been lurking around here for quite some time reading and researching learning from others post and It has been much help, along with a few others forums I am part of.
Now for the reason I have fianally decided to post here. I have been having some problems with a few of my tanks lately and growth just hasnt been to great at all and I havnt been able to figure out why, I have done lots of research and posted on some other forums.... got some good ideas and advice, tried several things But still plant growth is pretty much at a stand still. I will give you some background and tank specs. so you can all get a feel for what I have.

75 gallon standard aga tank
260 watts PC lighting 6700 K
Ehiem 2217, also with another small power head in the tank for added circulation.
Pressurized CO2

Ferts. dosed based on an estimated 60 gallon tank volume.
3/4 t. KNO3 3x/week
1/8 t. KH2PO4 3x/week
20 ml Traces 3x/week (CSM+B 1 T. in 250 ml H2O)
10 ml flourish Iron 10ml 3x/week

50% weekly water change with 1 t. seachem Eq. added after WC and 3/4 t. MgSO4
CO2 is delivered through the mist method and circulated very well with the extra power head and canister filter. Was turned up until fish were stressed and gasping and then backed off by PH reading of .2

water params:
temp is 78 degrees
GH is 9 degrees

Ca = 40ppm
Mg = 14.8ppm dont know how accurate those last two are since there is lots of room for error using hobby grade test kits

PH when lights come on is 5.9, 5.6 when lights turn off
KH 3 degrees
A sample of tank water test 7.0 after it has been taken and rested for 24 hours. So i believe CO2 is in good shape and these PH readings are consistant from day to day.
Off hand tap params. I can think of are GH of 6.5, KH of 3 dont know the PH as of this moment Tap Ca 33 and Mg 9.

Now for whats going on with the tank. For the most part the thing that just bugs me the most is that my plants hardly grow! they need trimmed maybe once every 3-4 weeks. I have some "weeds" in there to that hardly put on any noticable growth over a weeks time. Things like H. polysperma, combomba, H. difformis.... amount some others..... these grow more than the rest but even so an inch or two a week if that from those.... the rest of the plants even less. 
Along with that no matter how much Iron I dump into the tank all the stem plants have light green/yellowish tops, anubias puts out new leaves that are pale and yellowish in color through the entire leaf veins, leaf stem and all. There is a red melon sword that that puts out leaves that arnt very red, but more noticable the leaf veins and stem are yellow in color. same with glosso new leaves are light yellowish. I also have some Mayaca that hasnt grown for the past month, the tips are white and dead, and it hasnt even attempted to try to put out side shoots that I can see.
I have been fighting with this tank for the past year. I have tried lots of things, adding seachem Eq, adding different amounts of CaSO4 and MgSO4, to try different ratios, adding more K, adding no extra K. Cutting out Mg all togeather. adding more iron, adding more traces yadda yadda yadda the list goes on and on and on. Nothing I do seems to help get more plant growth. Also its important to take into consideration over that year I was still learning and other parameters changed and there may have been some things needed that the plants wernt getting so a change I made at that time might have made no difference because something else was missing. But right now I am at a total loss as to what to do to try to make this better.
I needed to order some ferts from greg So i went ahead and got a bottle of flourish because I have read on several post here that members were less than satisfied with the growth the got from CSM+B when the swiched from flourish or TMG to that. And to date that is really the only thing I havnt tried, is a different type of trace.
When I get my order and start with the flourish I also plan to cut the MgSO4 and see how that goes. I have also had lots of issues with deformed twisted growth, espically with A. reineckii, right now it is growing normal in this tank, but in other non co2 tanks I have set up its mangled, along with a lace plant that is just stunted and deformed to all heck. I have read lots of post regarding this issue here also but have yet to know for sure what exactly it is that causes the plants to grow in that way when there should be plenty of Ca for them. seems as though there is a lot to support that it is from to much or lack of another nutrient, though Im not sure which way it is.
Its really frusturating, sometimes I feel like just saying the heck with it.... I used to be at least pleased I could do nice non co2 tanks and have considered tossing the high lights and CO2 and just doing a nice sword crypt low tech set up.... but now even my plants in low tech tanks are having that distorted mangled growth. 

Well sorry for the long post I just havnt been able to come up with something for my lack of growth on my own or in other forums So i thought I would try here before giving up. Any help or ideas would be welcomed and greatly appriciated. thanks a lot to any who feels that can leand a hand!

Matt


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Forgot to mention the substrate in this tank is a mix od shultz aquatic plant soil, and regular fine grain gravel probably about a 60/40 mix, Also I get no pearling at any point during the day, along with no real algae problems, light green dust and just a bit of staghorn from a while ago but its dieing off.....

Also on rotala r. and mayaca the tips of the stems have turned a redish color, and on the rotala even some of the leaves have a bit of a red hue to them. I dont know if that helps at all, it seems as though all major nutrients that would be needed for good growth are in supply, but something isnt right other wise im sure I would see more than I have been seeing.


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## John S (Jan 18, 2005)

could be that u got a bad ph test kit and u think the co2 is high enough but if the test kit is off u are low on co2 try to crank up the co2 the fish will tell if its to high your ferts look good i think u dont have very much co2


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, but I have been there done that, I know CO2 is good, as you see in the post, CO2 levels have already been brought up to the point fish are gasping at the surface and then backed off just a bit.... and the PH test is good, its a Hanna ph pen, colibrated very often.... though I dont use it to figure CO2, just as a tool to help..... as you suggested I use the fish. and the fish tell me I cant add any more, even now at the end of the day they are a little bit stressed going to the surface here and there.... but nothing bad and its right as the CO2 is turning off, I also have a good amount of surface movement so there is good O2 exchange..... it seems to be something else..... unless you need to kill fish with CO2 to get good growth.....


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## John S (Jan 18, 2005)

ya once i posted that i read your post again and i noticed that u up your c02 sometimes its so hard to figure out whats wrong or whats missing


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, you've done an excellent job describing what you've been doing and I have to think that 90% of people that have put that amount of effort into it would have seen unvelievable success by now. For some reason, you've been unlucky. Your CO2 is probably fine - if anything a touch on the high side. pH's in the 5's worry me a little, but if nothing has died yet, why not?

Your light seems fine, fert plan seems almost perfect. I doubt that with your GH that you're having problems from either Ca or Mg. 1 tsp of Equilibrium isn't much at all in a 75g. I add 3 tsp at every 50% WC in my 46g but my tap GH is lower too.

I have a few ideas. Your iron levels might be quite low. I have a flourite substrate (supposedly rich in Fe) and it amazes me how much Flourish Iron I need to add to get the stem plants to green up nicely. It wouldn't surprise me if you needed 2 or 3 times as much. Try some Floruish or TMG. You might be missing some other trace although I think that's unlikely.

The description of yellow anubias leaves makes me think you have a nitrate defficiency. It doesn't seem likely, given what you're dosing, but it is possible. Do you test nitrates? If so, with what kit? It turns out I was making rather large errors in my nitrate assumptions with a hobby-grade kit as compared to a Lamotte. Is it possible that your chemicals aren't what you think they are? I've gotten K2SO4 and KNO3 mixed up on more than one occasion.

I wouldn't put too much thought into the appearance of the lace plant. Many very good planted tank people have failed miserably with that one, myself included.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks a lot for the reply guaiac_boy .... I know what you mean about PH's in the 5's.... makes me a little nervous also, but to tell you the truth the fish love it, they are all south americans and they couldnt be more happy. 
I often wonder about the Iron also as some say you should have plenty from the trace mix alone, while others dose extremely high amounts of flourish Fe and say that their plants will go yellow with out it. I have tried adding 10 mls of Fe daily a few times, and in a weeks period it never made much of any difference. though maybe the plants needed longer to respond, I was always under the impression that Fe recovery is on the faster end though for some reason. 
Anyway I did indeed just swich to flourish yesterday as you suggested, its probably unlikely that with a problem like this different trace mix will make a difference but its worth a try along with some other things.... 
The mixed up chemicals has been suggested to me and a thought of mine also It has been checked more times than I can count, and unless greg made a mistake when he packaged them  which im sure he didnt what Im adding is really what I think Im adding. 
I do test nitrates on once in a while just for s**** and giggles thought I dont dose based on this really, I would think that the amount I am adding is more than enough but as you said with the anubias.... its suspiciously common in appearance to lack of nitrates..... and another thing that came to mind the other day when going over and over..... and over nutrients and conditions in this tank as I seem to do all to often these days.... it was a thought that though unlikely I DO have an extremely light fish load for a 75 gallon and feed very lightly as well. The tank was just torn down completly after alomst a year running to clean the substrate because of a thick layer of peat I put in when I didnt know a lot and rushed into starting a tank  (haha think we have all been there and done that  ) anyway its been about 2 months since then, really no mulm or organic build up to be breaking down at this point, and only 10 pencil's a hand full of cherries to get a colony going, about a dozen oto's and 4 medium sized Sturistoma sp. fry. maybe 2.5 inches long. 
I have a hagen nitrate test that I tried to colabrate to the best of my ablity, however not having a dig. scale makes it hard to be very accurate when doing this, as making a sloution with a spoon measurment has its room for error. 
It really makes me wonder though, the lack of growth, NO pearling at all...... recently an outbreak with staghorn...... everything points at a macro deficiency? thats what it appears at least..... espically since adding iron by the hand full doesnt seem to make much of a difference..... Ill test the nitrates just for the heck of it.... but as I said the test isnt going to say a whole lot more that the plants arnt saying. Thanks I appriciate the time for taking a look and trying to help out


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I judge iron levels by looking at the leaves of my Hydrocotyle leukocephala. Each stem grows about 1 or 2 new leaves per day. If iron levels are ok, they look fine, if they're low, the veins come in dark but with lots of yellow in-between. It doesn't take very long to see an improvement.

The more you write, the more I think you're nitrate defficient. I add a similar concentration of nitrate each week, but my tank is loaded with fish. In my particular case I overdid the nitrates at one point (80 ppm+) and started to get phenomenal green dust algae all over everything. I've also let it bottom out a couple of times when I got lazy with dosing, most recently about a week ago when my levels got <4 ppm. All my dwarf sag and lobelia shed their leaves. It takes weeks and weeks to recover from that. I noticed my older anubias leaves turning yellow and should have recognized what was going on. Even with all the fish I have the tank pearls like crazy.

When you get it figured out be prepared for a huge shift in your tank. Once you dose the missing ingredient all the other nutrients might take a nosedive since they'll be used up quickly.

Good luck.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I too am wondering about NO3 deficiency. I know you can do a test for KNO3 but don't want to get into specifics here...so I will mention that maybe you try using some Stump remover for a week and see if things immprove. Lots of folks recommend the Greenlight Brand from Ace Hardware (I believe) but I used Spectracides Stump Remover for nearly two years in my tank without issue. Last time I purchased it a pound was $4-5 at Lowe's. It may have gone up by now though 

Keep us informed of the tank's status.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks you two  Its worth a shot at trying out.... I mean honestly what is there to loose? I have proved to my self pretty well I can keep plants alive just fine, they look decent I would say..... but I also have proved I cant make them grow like this either  haha. Its possible also espically since I dose Macros for the last time of the week on thursday, traces friday and then nothing on sat..... WC sunday and macros. That if for whatever reason nitrates were running lean, that two day period where macros arnt dosed they could probably get to low, or bottom out.
Matpat I have been doseing KNO3, are you suggesting stump remover as sort of a test to make sure what I think has been added is actually what it is?

Im about to do a little test, making up a stock solution and worked it out with the fertilator to add an amount to 2 gallons of water for a concentration of 10 ppm to sort of test the tank nitrate levels against a "known" source. Though its not going to be all to accurate considering cheap test kit, and no scale to weigh the KNO3, but it will be a ball park I suppose. Until later :wacko:


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

MrSanders said:


> Matpat I have been doseing KNO3, are you suggesting stump remover as sort of a test to make sure what I think has been added is actually what it is?


You mentioned that maybe Greg got the KNO3 and K2SO4 mixed up and while I think that is highly unlikely we are all human! It could be possible that you got them mixed up also...we are human after all.  It would take a couple of days to see any results from replacing you KNO3 wiht stump remover so I will PM you with another test you can do.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

haha. now lets back up a second here! LoL it was more of a joke  I dont want poor Mr watson to think Im trying to blame him! I was just saying I have double, triple checked over and over. and I leave all my ferts in the bags the come in. But after doing some test Im sure neither my self or Greg messed up, its KNO3 alright. yep... NO doubt about that lol.
I did some test with a stock solution also, seems as though the levels are good. I think its something else. I am in the process of testing a few things to see if it makes a difference so Im going to need to give it a week or two to see. But I will be sure to update this, if anyone else has any advice or suggestions please feel free to share, At this point in time I am willing for any ideas crazy or not..... I just want to get to the bottom of this
Thanks!
Matt


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I wasn't implying anything about Greg, just saying it is possible. I know I've ordered probably 30lbs of ferts from hum and have yet to have a problem!

How about a pic of the tank? You seem to be dosing twice as much KNO3 per week than I do but my tank isn't as heavily planted as it used to be. I don't add any K2SO4 either but I don't think that is an issue. 

I have also just begun to add Flourish as a micro fert so I will finish off the 500ml bottle and see if I notice any results as compared to CSM+B.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Just curious to see if anyone has expierenced what the can say for sure is a Mg deficiency, probably a mild one and what it looked like in some of thier plants? From doing research and reading on various other sites and such I have come across people who say that a lack of Mg can keep a plant from properly using Iron, and that Mg deficiency can cause a plant to turn reddish from the presence of the red pigment anthocyanin.

Assuming these things are true it pretty much describes the plants in my tank very well, many showing symptoms looking just like Fe deficiency, along with a few stem plants, R. rotundifolia in pioctular which turned very red in color on the tips, along with the stems turning bright red, even though nitrates are high. 

Anyway I decided to add more epsom salts.... again..... to try to see if this would help. I just did that last night and already today the R. rotundifolia is loosing some of the red color in the tips..... It is still yellow but I am hoping that they also start to green up. Just curious to see if what anyone knows about this, and if any one has seen a lack of Mg cause iron colorists, or plants to take on a reddish hue. Thanks

Matt


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Anyone? lol... either no one noticed the last post.... or no one knows? Oh well... it *appears* that the extra Mg added at WC is helping out, though it hasnt been to long, But the over all redness, is fading out.... and it seems like the plants are slowly starting to green up again. 

There was also a good amount of light veining in older leaves of several species. The older leaves didnt turn to yellow at all, but when looked at from above one can definantly see dark green veins compared to the rest of the leaf color which strongly makes me feel that Mg was slightly limiting. Time will tell. Thanks to anyone who has had any expierence with Mg deficiency and can share syptoms they observed other than the usual dark veins with lighter colored leaves.

Matt


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I think I'm in the 'nobody knows' camp. I've been looking & reading a lot to figure out why some of my older anubias leaves are yellowing. Maybe its the same problem...........


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Sorry Matt, I must have missed your post somehow :doh:

I'm not sure of Mg deficiency either. I've never experienced it myself. You are doing what I would do when a deficiency is expected by dosing a bit more od the suspected nutrient and seeing if that helps. How much extra Mg are you adding?

In a week or two, maybe more maybe less, you should be able to see if a Mg deficiency was in fact the issue. Please keep us posted on your "experiment"


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

LoL, well my "expierment" is more of a process of gaining my sanity back! lol, I just want a beautiful tank like I see in the pretty pictures! haha, though I guess i also have high standards because I'm sure many on here would be thrilled with my tank, and I KNOW most anyone in my local club would be blow away that such plants can be grown in an aquarium.... non the less It is obvious to any one very much into plants like my self that there is something going on and health and growth arnt all to great right now.

Anyway in the past it was always try this or that, add a bunch of this or less of something else.... and if things didnt perk up in a few days i would move on to something else..... well as you all know I learned that i was just a dog chasing his tail doing that! lol so now im trying to take it a bit slower and narrow things down.

I dont really feel like i would be limited on Mg but all else seems to be covered, and there are some tell tail signs that scream Mg deficiency that made me decide to start adding more ie... over all slow growth, and older leaves with small brown pin hole, along with light color and dark veins.

among all the other things going on with the new growth that is  So to the question of how much Mg.... supposidly my tap has around 5ppm... thats what the water company had several months back.... I havnt checked back recently though.

for the past 2 weeks or so I have been adding what I adopted as my "base line" to start work with. Which was pretty much similar to what I had been doseing for the past few months.... with an increase in iron and seachem Eq. to rule a few things out right off the bat.

75 gallons, estimated 60 gallon actual volume

3/4 t. KNO3
1/8 t. KH2PO4

20 ml's flourish All of the above dosed 3/x week

10 ml's Fe iron everyday.... which i know isnt needed now and I think I may cut back or stop all togeather since things havnt really greened up at all after almost 2 weeks of that.... needless to say I dont think there is a lack of iron available to the plants.......

sunday water change of 50%, with 1 tablespoon seachem Eq. and 1/2 tablespoon epsom salts..... which if my calculations are correct should be adding about 5ppm of Mg

Since I started adding the extra Mg plants sort of perked up a bit and seemed to grow a bit faster.... along with much of the red that was in the leaves fading..... though the stems still have a good amount of red in them. Over all pearling is still not there much..... towards the end of the day a bit from some plants but nothing crazy like many stems plants and ricca should be pearling.

So we will see, might take several weeks for plants to come back..... might need even a little more Mg? It might not have a thing to do with any of the things I have been doing and be something else all togeather... I have no idea, thats why i would like all the feed back and opinions I can get  any how I need to go back up and check on my fish! I just got some discus  and apreantly with a raise in tempture, fish dont appriciate high CO2 levels..... where they were alright before, I raised the temp and they started to gasp at the surface...... is this common knowledge that I should know? LoL and would I be right to assume that its the raise in temp. that is causing less O2 in the water.... making the high concentration of CO2 bothersome for them?

any way.... thank you all for input, and just support.... i sure would hate to be like some and say screw it.... NEVER get to the bottom of things and just get rid of everything giving up on it..... 

Matt


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I thought I would post a little follow up on this... believe it or not I still havent really worked out any issues I have been having. ](*,) 

After about a month or so of adding Mg things actually started to get a lot worse about the 3rd week or so, pretty much yellowing of everything in the tank, Ricca even was looking yellow, and not doing much..... I was getting a lot of dead areas in old growth of most of the plants also.... Soooooo I cut out the epsom salts all togeather and things are starting to look a little bit better.... getting some pearling at the end of the day from some plants which is cool.... i havnt seen that in months, just to be safe im also slowly bumping up CO2 every night to see how far I can go again..... but i still dont think CO2 is the issue

Anyway i decided to run a check up on the hardness of my tap and tank since adding Mg seemed to make things worse. And my tap has changed over the months from 6 gh, to 9 gh. After testing the tap water it looks like its around 37 ppm Ca, and 16 ppm Mg which seems like not very ideal ratios. Once again im sure there is tons of error in the test kits also but i believe it to some extent.... I should probably call the water company and try to get a water test.... or at least confirm the hardness change along with Ca and Mg levels.

Anyone have any ideas as to where to go from here? Maybe just wait it out to see if all the Mg in my tap, along with what I was adding was actually blocking K out... and not do anything different for a while? possibly raise Ca to get a better ratio..... im just at a total loss..... and fresh out of ideas for things to try......

~Matt


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

It's possible there are other nasties in your tap water that you're unaware of.

I decided I don't want to leave my tank's health up to the city water supply so I bought an RO unit.

Now I collect it in a 32 gallon trashcan at the beginning of the week, and at the end of the week use it for my water changes.

I then add a bit of Barr's GH Booster and sodium bicarb to the tank giving me a GH of 5 and a KH of 3.

It's nice because now I know *exactly* what is in my water.

I know, this is an expensive solution and might not even solve your issues, but I figured I would throw it out there.

Also if you want to eliminate CO2 as a possible culprit, maybe you could try dosing Flourish Excel? The extra carbon will definitely help things out if in fact your CO2 readings are somehow wrong.

Good luck, keep us posted


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I know CO2 isn't the issue because I have the same problem in a 5 gallon tank I dose excell in along with DIY CO2, and I also have a lace plant showing the same problems in a non CO2 tank...... they all seem to be suffering from the same thing......

As you mentioned there may be something in my tap causing this.... but it seems more nutrient related to me, lack of, or excess of something holding the plants back. Also I have 2 ten gallon non CO2 tanks that grow pretty healthy looking plants for the most part.... very slow growth but I dont get deformed new growth in these tanks, nor yellowing of tips or older leaves for the most part the plants in those tanks seem to grow how they should in a non CO2 tank......

i dont know what else to do..... im about ready to give up  been fighting this for over a year now..... Is it really that hard to have healthy plants? everyone just says all you need to do is EI and it elimates any deficiencies all you need is good CO2 and your plants will be healthy..... well that hasnt been my case at all and its super frustrating I already killed an entire tank full of fish from gassing them...... and not about to do that again but CO2 is high..... rested tank water is PH 6.9... when lights come on PH is 5.9 and 5.5 when they go off....... I have tried all kinds of combination's of different ferts and ratio's nothing has made much of a difference at all..... i went out and bought stump remover to check my KNO3 against to make sure its really KNO3 i have been adding.... that adds up...... I went out and bought Fleet's to make sure my PO4 is actually KH2PO4 and that seems to add up...... I've tried playing the Ca:Mg ratio game over and over...... I've tried dumping iron and traces out the butt in there..... I swiched from flourish iron to greg's iron powder...... I think the only thing I havnt tried was raising the KH..... 

Any ideas at all???? from anyone????

Very frustrated in Ohio........
~Matt


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*this sums me up as well*

I have similar problems in my tank with my anubias....never really look like they do when I buy them from a good online source...have tried everything....never works....ho hum.....they grow better under lower light but alas this is not what im trying to do. I can never get those red reds either...think its my lighting....although I have 110 watts over a 29 with ge 9325 bulbs....I have a coralife knockoff fixture...could having bad reflectors make that much of a diff? I know good reflectors will almost double the light but shouldnt 110watts be good even if I had no reflectors??


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

mlfishman, In short I dont really know.... im sure it could be a light issue but most likely not since that is a lot of light and even with loss from bad reflectors im sure the plants are getting plenty to grow healthy and nice.... maybe a fert problem? I dont know.....


I just got off the phone with the water company they are sending me out a water quality report.... but I was able to ask the guy about a few things.... Cu is pretty much undectable there at the plant.... sodium is 50 mg/l, Ca is 30.9 mg/l and Mg 6.2 mg/l. Ca and Mg are off from what my test kits said, just a bit on Ca.... a pretty large margin on Mg, but I will attribute that to test kit error which I knew my readings probably wernt accurate...... Seems odd though that GH at my house is testing 9..... but there is the same amount of Ca and Mg in the water back when the GH was coming out at 6? oh well seems pretty normal i guess? I'll have to see what all else the report has included when it gets here.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

MrSanders said:


> mlfishman, In short I dont really know.... im sure it could be a light issue but most likely not since that is a lot of light and even with loss from bad reflectors im sure the plants are getting plenty to grow healthy and nice.... maybe a fert problem? I dont know.....
> 
> I just got off the phone with the water company they are sending me out a water quality report.... but I was able to ask the guy about a few things.... Cu is pretty much undectable there at the plant.... sodium is 50 mg/l, Ca is 30.9 mg/l and Mg 6.2 mg/l. Ca and Mg are off from what my test kits said, just a bit on Ca.... a pretty large margin on Mg, but I will attribute that to test kit error which I knew my readings probably wernt accurate...... Seems odd though that GH at my house is testing 9..... but there is the same amount of Ca and Mg in the water back when the GH was coming out at 6? oh well seems pretty normal i guess? I'll have to see what all else the report has included when it gets here.


You might investigate the sodium level a bit further. I know sodium can cause major problems in plants if the sodium level is too high. I am not sure what that level is but I have seen it myself when I tried to grow plants with water that went through my home water softener.

You're right though, it really should be a simple matter of EI dosing and CO2. Sure, there are fine tunings beyond that to get truly stunning flora but basically to have growing pearling plants EI and Co2 should do it. That's why I think your tap water has something or somethings in it that are causing you problems.

Beyond that I would ditch the iron supplement (I think excess iron can inhibit uptake of Mg or something like that- I would investigate this further) and start using TMG for traces (I found CSM+B wasn't that effective). My 29 gallon gets KNO3, KH2PO4, TMG, and Barr's GH Booster and Sodium Bicarb after water changes since I use RO. I keep my water at gh 5 kh 3 and plants look great, pearling is heavy. I have only been doing this hobby for three months. I say this to underscore the fact that you shouldn't be having this much trouble and I bet something is going on you are not aware of.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Yepp Something.... I dont know what but something just isnt right. I had to order some things from Bigal's so i ordered a phos. test kit..... not to moniter levels but just to be POSITIVE that my KH2PO4 is indeed KH2PO4.... that is the only nutrient I am not sure of..... and since swiching to fleet's for PO4 there has been a small increase in health..... but that is also the time I cut out adding extra Mg through epsom salts and since over all growth hasnt improved much I dont think it has anything to do with there not being PO4 in the tank for the plants to use.

anyway.... sodium at 50 ppm doesnt seem all that high? it doesnt seem to affect the plants in the 10 gallon non CO2 tanks I have..... but then again who knows because those dont get water changes either. I dont have a RO unit but I have been thinking about getting bottles of distilled water to run the little 5 gallon tank with for a few weeks.... rebuilding the GH to known parameters to see if that helps at all..... if it does it still doesnt tell me the cause of my problem.... and running a 75 gallon on straight RO water really isnt an issue..... but at least I would be getting some where.......


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

well stuff from bigal's came.... dang they are quick over there! the order was placed around midnight on monday..... it shipped tuesday, and its here already today wed afternoon.... that pretty much over night shipping for the cost of ground!

Anyway..... KH2PO4 is def. KH2PO4.... and there appears to be plenty of PO4 in the tank.... though I havnt colbirated the kit yet i dont think that is really needed to get a positive ID as to weither or not there is or isnt PO4.....

guess ill go to the store tonight and and get some jugs of distilled and see if I cant turn the 5 gallon around.... all I have on hand for Ca is CaSO4.... is that alright by its self along with epsom salts to re-build the GH? i really dont have any expierence with that as I have never needed to use RO water.... thanks

~Matt


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well i got a analysis from the water department the other day..... Its pretty in depth and I dont know what most things on it are to tell you the truth.... and im not going to take the time to type it all out for it to be looked over because its 3 pages long! but the 2 things that sort of stick out that may be of concern on it are sodium, and chloride....

Sodium 50 mg/l
Chloride 82 mg/l

are these levels what would be considered high? High enough to cause potential problems with plants? Other than that everything else seems alright, most of it appears to be in tiny amounts.... ug/l what ever that stands for....


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## heidisue (May 3, 2006)

*edge of my seat*

Well, I hope someone answers you because this thread reads like a Grisham novel. Seriously, it was pretty exciting and I learned a lot about micros and macros to boot.

GL in your tank.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I am glad that the text is of some help to others and that it isnt just taking up space. Happy to hear you were able to learn more about ferts and the importance of them.

However I have yet to figure out whats going on with my tanks, Im sort of back at square one re-trying things I have already done in the past, and also ordered new ferts from Greg just to role out the chance for sure that things are some how mixed up. If I ever figure this one out I will be sure to post the "answer"

~Matt


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## guyrichy (Apr 30, 2006)

im new too

i doubt your doing anything wrong with the water. my random guess is that theres not enough nutrients in your subtrate. perhaps buy some fertilizer sticks so that you can shove em directly to the root system. Also a few questions if i may. Did you add anything organic such as peat during the initial process. Also, how old is this tank? hope this helps a bit or gives you a new place to look

richard


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

eh, I really dont feel that this has anything to do with the substrate..... being sour, or not having enough nutrients in it.... i dont really know that set up is a few months old? Thinking the substrate had gone bad on me i tore the entire tank down and pulled it all, cleaned it of all the muck and set everything back up...... gave me a much better looking hardscape.... but it didnt make any difference in plant growth...... and yes there is a light dusting of peat under the substrate....


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