# Stem plant disintegrating



## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

I have a 75 gal set up for low light plants with 112 watt LED strip lights. My Java fern, Buce and Annubia are growing slowly after I set up a pressurized CO2 system injecting about 1 bubble every 2 second. So I tried my first stem plants a few weeks ago, selecting only medium light stems (Rotala Rotundifolia, Luwidgian glandulosa and Luwidgian narrow leaf). After holding on for a few days, leaves started to fall off and stems broke off from the substrate. Every morning I have to net out load of fallen leaves and replant the stems. My stem plants are disintegrating. Is it an indication that I do not have enough light?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Its melting.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"Melting" sometimes occurs with rosette plants like Cryptocoryne after transplanting. The plants lose leaves but then recover. It is not unusual for stem plants to lose some leaves when first transplanted, but the stems don't normally break at the substrate.

Can you be more specific about your lighting? Different LEDs can be good or bad depending on spectral output. What kind of substrate are you using? Do the stems ever have roots, either at the bottom in substrate or along the stem in the water?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A 75 gallon tank requires a lot more CO2 than 1 bubble every 2 seconds, even with pretty big bubbles. Check how much CO2 you are getting into the water by measuring the pH of the water when the CO2 has been off for 12 hours or more, then measure how much lower the pH of the water is when the CO2 has been on for a few hours. If the drop in pH is 1.0 (like from 7.0 to 6.0) you have about 30 ppm of CO2, which is good. If the drop is 0.5 you have about 9 ppm, which is pretty low for the CO2 to be effective. If the drop is 0.8 you have about 20 ppm, which is enough to make a big difference.


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## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Michael said:


> Can you be more specific about your lighting? Different LEDs can be good or bad depending on spectral output. What kind of substrate are you using? Do the stems ever have roots, either at the bottom in substrate or along the stem in the water?


I have two of these 48" LED strips I bought from Ebay,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-48-LED-L...hash=item3d2fb2b5e1:m:mPHvG4uNw2HEPubEFdu-y6Q

plus 72" submersible LED tubes that I tied inside the front and side rims of the tank

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-white-...hash=item3d0448fd29:m:m0PEhqW2AUlVBO57A9kglQg

The total light input is 112 watt and output 13416 lumens based on manufacturers information. I do not know the PAR but with only 1.5 watt per gal, I target only low light plants. Now that I have pressurized CO2, I want to experiment with low-medium light stem plants to see if it works.

My substrate is dolomite gravel, high in Ca and Mg but inert otherwise. I dose potassium, micros and Fe, and select plants, mostly epiphytes, that feed from the water column. I have moderate fish load and water testing show that I have plenty of N (20 ppm) and P (2 ppm) so I don't dose either. The tank has been set up for 20 years to keep mostly cichlids so I have no plan to replace with eco substrate. My kH is about 5 and pH about 7.5 with no CO2 injection.



hoppycalif said:


> A 75 gallon tank requires a lot more CO2 than 1 bubble every 2 seconds, even with pretty big bubbles. Check how much CO2 you are getting into the water by measuring the pH of the water when the CO2 has been off for 12 hours or more, then measure how much lower the pH of the water is when the CO2 has been on for a few hours. If the drop in pH is 1.0 (like from 7.0 to 6.0) you have about 30 ppm of CO2, which is good. If the drop is 0.5 you have about 9 ppm, which is pretty low for the CO2 to be effective. If the drop is 0.8 you have about 20 ppm, which is enough to make a big difference.


 I have a drop checker and the color stays lime green all the time, so I don't know if it's working or I have low CO2. I will try your approach to mesure the CO2. I have a power CO2 reactor, so CO2 distribution shouldn't be an issue. I don't intend to keep high light plants, so I intentionally keep the BPS at low count and dial up if necessary. It's my first planted tank so I have to change thing one at a time and gradually.


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## Khaoticworld (Apr 14, 2017)

Is it possible that when replanting the stem is getting broken or even pinched too much? I know I've done that before without noticing? You could try tying a stem lightly to something and weigh it on the bottom to see if that changes anything

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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

If you are serious about your planted tank you can borrow a PAR meter and use it to find out just how much light you actually have at the substrate. Then you can make your other decisions based on real information instead of guesses. See http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/131882-fs-rent-apogee-par-meter.html


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

^^^^good idea^^^^^


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## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

Yes, I am thinking of borrowing a PAR meter to find out exactly how much PAR I have. Since LED efficiency is at least double that of T12, my best guess is that I have medium light based on 1.5 watt/gal LED.

I checked my pH drop yesterday before and after the lighting period, and the drop is about 0.5 or from 7.6 to 7.1. It's not precise because the color match is tentative. I am reluctant to dial up the CO2 and drop the pH further because I keep hard water fish and they will suffer if I allow the pH to drop below 7. According to Hop, I have about 9 ppm CO2, not optimum but safer for my fish. I have already observed growth spurts in my plants so I am OK with 1/2BPS now.

As for the stem plants falling apart, I suspect it could be physical damage from robust fish. I keep robust cichlid and dozens of bristle nose plecos. I have not observed my cichlid abuse the stem plants, but my BNP might do the damage at night because the debris showed up in the morning after. My Java fern, Anubias and Buce were unaffected because they have tough texture, but stem plants are delicate. I am not 100% certain though unless I catch them in action at night with a flash light.


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## tiger15 (Apr 9, 2017)

With diligent surveillance, I cannot confirm the break down of the stem plants was caused by physical damage from fish or BNP at night. They just disintegrate on their own. Now 80% are gone, I have given up on stem plants. 

I have rechecked the pH a few times and got conflicting results. Instead of seeing pH drop with CO2 injection, the pH has risen from 7.0-7.2 to 7.4 after the photo/CO2 period. The other day I saw a drop was not repeatable. The injection rate is 1/2bps, and the plants are responding with growth spurts. No wonder my drop checker is unresponsive, always stays lime green. So this planted tank is a black box to me, not knowing the CO2 or PAR level, and why some plants make it, others disintegrate.


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## asad_200113 (Aug 24, 2017)

By what you have said I think your lighting just isn't enough. It's good for lowlight plants but other than that it won't work. If you want a budget planted aquarium light check out the beamswork leds like the DA Fspec or the DHL 6500k on Amazon or eBay 


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