# My newly set up 15 gallon



## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

After my 6 gallon got over taken with diatoms and other algae i decided to try to move to a bigger tank... my 10 gallon with 3wpg over it seems to have had wayyy better growth using just plain gravel from petsmart than my 6 gallon walstad tank did..... soo i decided to give the walstad method another shot......sooo.....

here it is! it is using a shoplight with T8 bulbs totaling up to 35 Watts, so what equals to a little a over 2wpg. I hope this is okay!

I used Eco-Complete and miracle gro potting mix, and am using a Aquaclear 70 on this sucker(I got it for free, so might as well use it)

No fish yet, i added seachem stability to it, just to make sure it is safe before i rehouse my dwarf puffers.

Plants include
Water Wisteria
Ludwiga Arcuta
Asian Ambulia
Java fern
Crypt Parva( in front middle... seems quite large and very upright....)
HM(is it supposed to be such a pale colored green?)
Crypt Lutea
some apogetons
a tiger lily
and i threw in some hornwort

I hope to house 4 dps, 3otos, and about 25+ shrimp... as long as my Dps dont eat them haha let me know what you think! Comments are ALWAYS appreciated!!


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## joshvito (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm pretty sure the puffers will go after the shrimp.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

my current 2 puffers have been housed with a single amano shrimp in a 6 gallon for about a year, and have gone without feeding for over a week before. Yet the shrimp is still alive!


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Very nice!  What is the plant in the bottom left hand corner at the front? It's a very bright looking green.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

its HM... however i looked this morning and it looks like theres alrdy some stringy algae on it!!! ahhh >< its only the second day how can there alrdy be algae!

Any suggestions? Raise the light perhaps?


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## NeonFlux (May 15, 2008)

Looks great. How long do you keep the lights on?


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

this was my 2nd day with the tank up.. yesterday(the day i set it up) i left the lights on for about 8 hrs? i think?

But i still cant believe my eyes that im seeing stringy(whiteish... for now) algae hanging onto my HM

maybe should i add a filter over the light?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Adding a filter or powerhead will circulate the water which spread the nutrients the plants need around the tank evenly so it would probably help a bit.

I have my tanks set up to a timer and it keeps the lights on for 11 hours. That amount of time has always worked for me so that's what I stick with. You could try to up it to 10 hours if you wanted. I think a lot of people who set up NPT's tend to leave the lights on for a 12 hour period.

Also, don't be alarmed that you have a bit of algae. I had noticed some forming around the second or third day after I set up my new tank and now there isn't much left anymore. Of course that could be because of my endlers. They were grazing on the plants and cleaned up most of it. :whoo: I think the algae was there when I bought the plants only I didn't notice it until much later.

Btw, what exactly does HM stand for? Do you know the full name of the plant? I wanted to look it up to get some information on it.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

the name of the plant is Hemianthus micranthemoides. 

Also does anyone know how long my lighting should be if my tank will get very little to no sunlight at all. I want to do a split photo period, should i stick with the 5-4-5? or increase my daylight times to 7-4-7?


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## NeonFlux (May 15, 2008)

Hmm..I think you should stick to just a minimum of 6 hours and 30 min. in my opinion.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks. I'll go get some info on that plant now. 

Is there a reason you want to do the siesta? I've always left my tank lights on for one straight period and I've never had any problems.

If your tank is getting next to know direct sunlight then I'd say leave the lights on for at least 10 hours a day so you could just leave them on for the full 10 hours or do the 5-4-5. 

If you don't mind, when you put your fish in there and if you do use the siesta for the lighting, would you let me know how your fish are with it? I had tried it a couple of years ago and my fish didn't take to it at all. It confused them because when the lights when out, they started to become more relaxed as if they were getting ready to sleep and then when the lights went back on, they didn't know if they should get active again or go to sleep! That's why I leave mine on for 11 hours straight. They seem to like it better that way.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

I have a tank that has no sunlight because I put a black background on the glass. I use a 5-4-5 and everything is fine, but every tank is so unique that you may just have to play around with it and see what works for you.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

Ut oh.... i believe i am seeing signs of deficiencies already?!?

COuld this possibly mean that i have too much light for a NPT??here are some attached pictures >< i swear ic an never get this right! i always get my plants dying off for some reason......and the anubias was from a tank before. But in these pictures the anubias and the lily are turning clear as you can see in these pictures. And the HM just seems to be deteriorating :-/ could this be due to my light or maybe cuz my crappy water ph?(ph~8.5)

























and a tank full shot









Any suggestions? possibly raise my light or add a filter or something over it?? Is it even my lights that are the problem?? I swear both the tanks ive attempted to set up have both have begun miserably :-(

Would only using 1 18w T8 bulb be too little light??? i just dont know what to do.. Any help would be appreciated. I ask on other places as well but most only give me high tech advice.

EDIT: Also on a side note the leaf on the lily is completely clear now :-/


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I could be wrong but what is happening to your plants could very well be normal. When plants are put into water of a different chemistry, they have to acclimate to it so the older leaves start to die off to make way for the newer ones that will have already adapted to the water. I notice this a lot in Crypts. The older leaves always die off but there are just as many, if not more newer ones ready to sprout up in their place.

Usually deficiencies would be caused by not enough lighting I would think but again, I could be wrong. I'd just leave the lighting as it is.

What I would like to know is that even though there are no fish in there, have you sprinkled some food in there for the plants? I did this with my new tank and it seemed to give my plants a little boost and I started to notice some growth in them so that may help. I did it twice a day as if I was feeding fish.

I do want to add that when I go shopping for plants, I try to get ones that are able to handle a wider range when it comes to water hardness and pH. All of the plants I have can handle a pH of 8.0 or a little higher and the pH in my tank is at 8. From what I looked up on Baby Tears(HM), they prefer a pH that's more acidic-neutral.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

yea baby tears do like a little bit more neutral pH but i really liked how they looked so i was willing to give them a try. The water is still coming from the same place... but i guess with different tanks is different water chemistry? i guess especially with the tiger lotus is why im most concerned because those are supposed to be hardy plants. but yea... thanks for the input.

I shall go check out your post red rose and see what plants you used for your tank! Maybe when yours all grow in i can get some trimmings from ya ^^

EDIT: also in regards to fish in there, i got about 20 ghost shrimp in there right now. Im using purigen just in case all the plants didnt do the purifying. I'm going to wait a week until i add my dwarf puffers in there. SO when i do feed the tank it all gets eatten up pretty quickly by the shrimp. And with that said is it bad to have shrimp in a NPT since the left over food wont regenerate the soil? If thats the case i may just root tab the gravel every 6 months or so


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't see anything wrong with your lighting or the 5-4-5 lighting period. Plants aren't that finicky.

Red Rose is right that plants have to acclimate to the new conditions. They may shed their new leaves. I would remove dead and dying plant matter, as it will add nutrients to the water and encourage algae. With the soil and Eco-complete, the plants should have plenty for several months.

The substrate looks a little deep. (It's hard to tell from the pictures, so I may be wrong.) If the substrate is too deep, it can become severely anaerobic. Severely anaerobic substrates can kill rooted plants (there's a discussion about substrate problems in my book, page 133-134). This may be why your plants did better in your gravel-only tank; substrate was more aerobic and wasn't killing them. 

In tanks with a too deep organic soil layer covered over with a deep gravel layer, roots can't keep themselves safely oxygenated. Plants don't grow well, so algae moves in and takes up all the CO2. It's all down-hill from there.

I'd remove some of the Eco-Complete topping. Make the topping as thin as possible to encourage substrate aeration. And I hope that your soil layer is no deeper than 1". For a 10 gal tank, I'd make it even less (small plants in a small tank don't need a thick soil layer). For my 2 gal tanks, I used only about 1/2 inch of soil.

Hope this helps. It looks like you're trying hard.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

My soil layer is about an inch deep, and my eco complete is about an inch deep as well. should it be less than an inch? at some points in the tank it is as thin as maybe 1/2 and inch. However, in my other NPT that i failed at, the substrate was about an inch deep, yet some of the roots developed black meaning that it went anaerobic at those spots. So maybe i should go even less?? How would you recommend taking substrate out without completely destroying everything, and uprooting things and disturbing the soil? 

If and how can i tell if H2S is a problem, and how long will it take to appear? i know the smell of rotten eggs but any other way to tell besides uprooting your plants and seeing if their roots are black?

I guess i really want to avoid tearing down the tank when i just set it up a few days ago haha. Thats and im running out of soil and eco complete to top it with.


Also: im starting to see little thread like algae coming off some of the plants. Does this mean i should put a filter over the light and that it may be too strong? Or should i just try to add more floaters to the tank? When i transported my hornwort it just melted on me :-/ so i dont have much of that left.


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## nimo (Jul 14, 2009)

Pale green of HM is an iron deficiency .. Start dosing .. half the recommended dosage, once in a week ... you would need more plants, if you wish to stick to 8 hours of photo period.. else reduce it to 6 hours for now.. slowly increase depending on plants growth ...


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## redchigh (Jul 10, 2010)

I believe your problem is your lack of faith. 


Take out the Purigen and turn off the filtration- I bet it's absorbing the nutrients out of the water.

Just try it and see, I'll bet all the gold in china that's your problem.
Also, why do you insist on using Ecocomplete?

I always assumed Ecocomplete was a substitute for the people scared to use soil. I don't see the point in using both...


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

i use purigen because my dritwood releases alot of tannins and i really dislike the way that it looks. I also do not believe that Purigen takes nutrients out of the water, please someone correct me if im wrong. I really like the job it does at polishing up the water and making it look clear

As to why i use eco complete? Simple, i got a good deal on a 20lb bag (20 bucks), and i wanted a black substrate and couldnt really find anything else that was close to it. I also figured if i wanted to add plants i could do so by just planting them in the eco complete which is easier than planting in gravel then just letting the roots go down to the soil layer it self. SO i figured i would have much less of a mess on my hands when adding new plants.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

kilfrg7864 said:


> My soil layer is about an inch deep, and my eco complete is about an inch deep as well. should it be less than an inch? at some points in the tank it is as thin as maybe 1/2 and inch. However, in my other NPT that i failed at, the substrate was about an inch deep, yet some of the roots developed black meaning that it went anaerobic at those spots. So maybe i should go even less?? How would you recommend taking substrate out without completely destroying everything, and uprooting things and disturbing the soil?
> 
> If and how can i tell if H2S is a problem, and how long will it take to appear? i know the smell of rotten eggs but any other way to tell besides uprooting your plants and seeing if their roots are black?
> 
> ...


You might be okay. You can poke the substrate with a pencil to introduce oxygen and help things out. Remove a little of the Eco-complete layer. Save it for another tank.

Also, you say that you used Miracle Gro potting mix. I sincerely hope that you mean Miracle Gro _Organic Choice_ Potting Mix.

Finally, remember that you are dealing with an ecosystem and all its complexities. Immediate results are not guaranteed. Relax a little and see what develops.

Good luck!


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

thanks for all the advice i actually just tore down the whole tank and just barely put a gravel layer over the soil layer... although i think i put a little too little gravel so now i have a ton of floating soil on the top of my tank >< and the water is very hazy/milky colored. Will let it sit for a few days and see if anything changes. If not time to do some massive water changes!


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

If it makes you feel any better I completely killed everything in my first NPT. It was a 20 gallon with too thick of substrate that went anaerobic. Hydrogen sulfide gas took out everything. I later tried a total depth of 1.5" (.75" MG Organic Choice and .75" of 50/50 sand/gravel mix) in a larger tank (125 gallon) and everything is much better, though my constant messing around with the scape in the earlier days of the set up caused lots of green water issues.

Anyway, if you find yourself rescaping things, it might be best to completely drain the tank first, then make sure the substrated is capped off and sealed before filling it back up.

On lighting, like DWalstad said, the plants should be pretty versatile. I run just over 1.8 wpg in the 125, and more than 6 wpg in the small tank, both on a 5-4-5 schedule. They are both presently very stable, but both took time to settle in.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

Maybe someone can enlighten me on what is occurring. So i tore down my tank and re planted everything and added a thinner layer of gravel/eco complete on top. The filter was left the same. I am using an aquaclear filter with purigen, a sponge, and some filter floss in it. 

Anyways so my tank has a cloudy/hazy appearance, I did a 50% water change yesterday and it cleared things up a little bit but then today its just as cloudy. 

ALSO when i lift my hood up the water smells like soil.... should this smell be happening??? Could this be the cause of the haziness too many particles maybe got into the water?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

kilfrg7864 said:


> Maybe someone can enlighten me on what is occurring. So i tore down my tank and re planted everything and added a thinner layer of gravel/eco complete on top. The filter was left the same. I am using an aquaclear filter with purigen, a sponge, and some filter floss in it.
> 
> Anyways so my tank has a cloudy/hazy appearance, I did a 50% water change yesterday and it cleared things up a little bit but then today its just as cloudy.
> 
> ALSO when i lift my hood up the water smells like soil.... should this smell be happening??? Could this be the cause of the haziness too many particles maybe got into the water?


The hazy appearance could just be a a bacterial bloom which is normal. It'll clear out on it's own.

As for the soil smell, isn't it great?  Both of my tanks smell like wet earth and I love it! Sometimes, I'll open the section that I use to feed my fish just so I can get a whiff. It's normal and nothing to worry about.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

+1 on Mandy's comments (did I spell that right Red_Rose?).

The bloom is just the kickstart so to speak. As long as you are only using mechanical filtration, your El Natural system should be fine, and the mechanical filtration will soon colonize with the good stuff. 

I personally would be concerned with the sponge filter, HOB (I'm guess that's an HOB filter) et cetera disrupting the water surface. This degasses your CO2, which the plants need. But I've seen pics of other people's tank with surface breakage and the tanks look fine, so take that for what it's worth. I just added a canister for mechanical filtration in the 125 and have not noticed any problems, but the outlet is directed so that it doesn't create any "waves" and the volume is low relative to the tank size.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

mudboots said:


> +1 on Mandy's comments (did I spell that right Red_Rose?).
> 
> The bloom is just the kickstart so to speak. As long as you are only using mechanical filtration, your El Natural system should be fine, and the mechanical filtration will soon colonize with the good stuff.
> 
> I personally would be concerned with the sponge filter, HOB (I'm guess that's an HOB filter) et cetera disrupting the water surface. This degasses your CO2, which the plants need. But I've seen pics of other people's tank with surface breakage and the tanks look fine, so take that for what it's worth. I just added a canister for mechanical filtration in the 125 and have not noticed any problems, but the outlet is directed so that it doesn't create any "waves" and the volume is low relative to the tank size.


You got it right! 

If you don't want any surface agitation from a HOB(if that's what you are using), you can make yourself a baffle. I have these on the filters for my tanks and there's no agitation whatsoever. You can see the water move around on the surface but that's it.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

i am actually doing that!! however i still get ripples off the side of the bottle not sure why


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

kilfrg7864 said:


> i am actually doing that!! however i still get ripples off the side of the bottle not sure why


A few ripples is fine. I get that with the baffles I have set up on my filters as well.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

I just tested my water parameters....

I have 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrites , and about 5 Nitrates......

Can i still be having a bacterial bloom with these readings?

I do see very small particles floating around the tank, so maybe they could be the reason? I was thinking of trying out seachem clarity and see how that works out.

but at the same time could this be green algae? It doesnt appear to have a green tint while looking straight at it, however in the light it has a slight tinge... but that could be due to the tannins. haha


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Algal blooms generally last for a few days.

If there's a green tinge it is likely green water algae. You can either let it run it's course over a relatively long period, or use a UV filter to kill it off. But keep in mind, if it is water algae, that it is using something that is in excess, so if you get rid of it something else will take its place.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

update!!!

so it turns out one of the bags i had that held the purigen has some hols in it which was shooting particles all over the tank... so i got a new bag and the tank is MUCH clearer! here is an updated picture i just added my DPs in the tank with about 20+ ghost shrimp and so far 2 amano shrimp.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi kilfrg7864,

It is looking very good!


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Plants are really looking good, and the water looks clear. It's coming along nicely.

Question - What is purigen?


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## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

Its this stuff made by seachem that absorbs nitrogenous wastes. Its nice because it can be recharged but it is on the pricey side for me so I just cycle my tanks and let the plants have their fill.

Kilfrg,

Do you put it in a powerfilter/canister in a media bag?

Why are you using the purigen? Is your N really off the charts that much or are you just trying to starve algae?


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Franco said:


> Its this stuff made by seachem that absorbs nitrogenous wastes. Its nice because it can be recharged but it is on the pricey side for me so I just cycle my tanks and let the plants have their fill.
> 
> Kilfrg,
> 
> ...


Thanks Franco; it seems like it really should be used sparingly if at all in planted tanks. Very interesting.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

im using purigen to help clear out/polish my water and to get rid of tannins... cant stand the tea colored water.


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## Cichlid Junkie (Mar 25, 2005)

Thats a good looking tank. The plants look very healthy.


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## Franco (Jun 25, 2010)

So the plants really arent starving from having the purigen in there?
Activated carbon works for the tannins too but it can't really be recharged. Polyfill for polishing.
I prefer cheap. lol
Are the tannins coming from your wood or the substrate? In hindsight, maybe the wood should have been soaked longer.

Really a good looking tank though.

Where did you get your plants?

What are the plants in the foreground?


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

the plants on the left are HM and the ones on the right are crypto parva. I was testing these two out to see how they would do in the water conditions where i live. The parva seems to be slowly dying, with leaving turning yellow and melting every few day... i dont think this is crypt melt.... And the HM is doing okay... its surviving at least.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Too bad about the Crypt parva. I really hope you turn out to be wrong about it not being Crypt melt, as it is a great plant.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

kilfrg7864 said:


> the plants on the left are HM and the ones on the right are crypto parva. I was testing these two out to see how they would do in the water conditions where i live. The parva seems to be slowly dying, with leaving turning yellow and melting every few day... i dont think this is crypt melt.... And the HM is doing okay... its surviving at least.


So are almost all of the Crypt leaves dead or dying? Are there any new leaves coming up in place of the older ones?

I've noticed that when Crypts are put into a new aquarium, they tend to lose quite a few leaves for a good month or so because it is acclimating to the new water. When the older leaves start to die, you can see new ones in the center ready to take their place. Can you see any new leaves or does the entire plant look like it's dying?


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

nope not all the crypt leaves are dying just a few here and there every other day/ every week. It doesnt look like its sprouting up new leaves... yet! But we shall see!. I think alot of my HM dies because it was going from its emerged stage to its submersed stage. Before/ all the dead leaves were more rounded compared to the new sharper leaves. 

I'll post a picture tonight of the tank!


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

To offer just a bit of encouragement, I had a Crypt wendtii that "died". 2 months later it came back really nice as if from nowhere. Similar thing happened with a Crypt spiralis, but it did not take as long; the others lost leaves, but had newer ones coming up at the same time.


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