# Loaches & high KH



## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

_Can a KH of 16 kill Yo-Yo loaches?_

Symptoms where: Pale coloration, stopped eating, long periods of inactivity with spells of being very hyper & occasionally laying on their sides.

All three died within 2 weeks of my KH going from 9 to 16, which happened over a months time. No other water parameters changed, no other fish or plants where added & no other changes to the tank for months.

_So what is the verdict? _


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Trenac - why did your kh rise so high? Rock? Substrate? Are you running co2 in that tank?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

PG... From anothe post I have narrowed it down to the Petsmart gravel or Driftwood. I'm betting it is the gravel which I still have to test to make sure. Yes, I inject C02.


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Yea, I would wonder about the gravel too, I've not heard of driftwood actually raising kh...but, did you just change gravel? Or is this a new tank?


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your losses Trena....

My guess would be on the substrate too.

I didn't realize that a higher KH would kill loaches, but it's definitely something to make a note of....


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

PG... The tank has been set up for about a year now. The gravel is the same gravel I started with; a mix of Flourite & regular natural gravel. When I first set up the tank the KH was at 6-7, then it went up to 9 over time, then just recently shot up to 16.

Jan... I was not aware of this either. KH has been the only change in my tank within the last month. All my other fish are doing fine which includes: Gourami's, Tetra's, SAE's and even a Otto.


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## glenhead (Jan 29, 2005)

Ok, here's a WAG (unfortunately, there's not enough science to call this Wild A**ed Guess a SWAG):

Osmotic pressure. kH going from 9 to 16 indicates a greatly increased concentration of ions in the water (bicarbonate ions, if nothing else - probably others, too). Higher ionic density means increased negative osmotic pressure in the water column relative to the innards of the fish. Loaches, being scaleless, are "somewhat" sensitive to osmotic pressure, relative to scaled fishes - instead of only having their gill tissues available for osmotic exchange, they have their entire skin surfaces, too. In biology class back before the earth cooled, we did a study on cellular membrane transfer - put red blood cells in a concentrated saline solution, and watch them shrivel up as the water is drawn from them in an attempt to equalize the ionic concentration on the two sides of the cell wall. (That wasn't as cool as putting them in distilled water and watching them go "piff" when they exploded from absorbing too much water (called cellular lysis), but it's the same mechanism (and I digress)). Osmotic pressure difference is why freshwater fish can't survive in sea water, and vice-versa - freshwater fishes dehydrate and die in sea water (equivalent to terrestrial dying of thirst), and marine fishes die in fresh water because their bodies absorb too much water (equivalent to terrestrial congestive heart failure).

In summary, the excess ionic concentration caused the loaches to dehydrate.

How 'bout that for a guess?


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

That was a very impressive "guess".... ;-)


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

I think Glenhead is on to something -- but I really want to get to the bottom of the raise in the kh. That to me is not normal. Trenac, are there any other rocks in there?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Glen, thanks... That was the longest guess I've every seen, but none the less very interesting. The guess could be right, sounds good to me.

PG... The only decor I have is the large piece of driftwood, no rocks other than the gravel. This weekend I will test the gravel, I was told to use acid but I also read in another post that vinegar works. _What do you think?_


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Some say the vinegar works, some say it is not strong enough, so I don't know. Are you adding any ferts at all? What is your water kh right out of the tap?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

KH from the tap is 2-3... My other two tanks stay at a KH of 3-4. 

Yes, I add Kent grow, Kent micros, Kent iron, Seachem phosphorous & Green Light stump remover (potassium nitrate)...I use the same ferts on my other two tanks.


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## Piscesgirl (Feb 25, 2004)

Have you tested your phosphates? What is the reading? I'm wondering if perhaps that is affecting the kh reading? I'm not that scientific, but I remember reading that phosphates can affect Kh readings....


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

The last time I tested phosphorus it was 0.1


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Trena, here's quote from geologist ( John Wakabayashi ), from his article " Rocks And Aquaria: A Geologist's View " at Aqua Den. He really knows his stuff.  

"Now, for the carbonate test: Carbonates will react and give off CO2 when in contact with hydrochloric acid. What about vinegar? I often see posts about this. Vinegar, and other weak acids will NOT detect many carbonates. Vinegar is a very weak acid. Even concentrated acetic acid (vinegar is dilute acetic acid) is orders of magnitude weaker (in hydrogen ion activity) than even the comparatively dilute 1 molar HCl solution most geologists carry around. Carbonates such as dolomite (a calcium-magnesium carbonate) bubble only weakly even in 1 M HCL; they won't do squat in vinegar. Even calcite, the most common carbonate (CaCO3), if disseminated as cement in some sandstones may not give an explosively effervescent reaction. So even with HCl, you have to watch carefully. I realize that HCl isn't available at your local supermarket, but, then again, neither is Amquel, Biospheres, or any of the fishy things we usually put in our aquarium. HCl is easily available at a scientific supply store. I was a rockhound as a kid, and I always had HCl obtained from such a store; such stores are no more uncommon than an LFS. A little bit of HCl goes a long way; 50 ml is all you need to test rocks to your heart's content. HCl is also available (for cheaper unit price) under the trade name Muriatic acid (3M HCl last I checked) at pool supply stores, but you'll have to buy a larger amount. It is usually available at pool supply stores. pH Down is another commercial product that may work for most carbonate-bearing rocks."


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## glenhead (Jan 29, 2005)

If you don't have any need (or desire) to have a gallon or two of concentrated hydrochloric acid sitting around, try calling pool supply stores or pool maintenance companies and ask if they'll sell (or give) you a little bottle of it. Another source for concentrated acid is an auto supply store that sells batteries - they will have sulfuric acid on hand for filling batteries, which (except for maintenance-free sealed ones) are shipped dry. After all, you only need a few drops for testing your substrate.

You might even just drop in on a pool supply shop or auto supply store with a glass bowl and a bit of substrate, and get them to run a little acid on top of the substrate. You'll probably be able to find someone there that'll think it'd be "cool" to see what happens.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I tested the gravel (about time) and found that it is the Petsmart gravel raising my KH. I used vinegar instead of acid, kind of un-easy about the acid. So now I have a reason to re-do my tank.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

That's good to know about the Petsmart gravel, Trena. Wow, that really brought it up from what your tap reading is. :shock:

What kind of substrate are you going to go with when you re-do it?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I plan on trying sand, the kind you buy from Lowes.

_Do you know what brand to get? or does it matter?_


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