# Milwaukee pH controlled set-up



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hey folks- I haven't been able to find any previous conversations about this but what are the opinions out there on pH controlled CO2?

I've been running mine as such for over a year and I've never really been sure that it's delivering enough CO2. Is it better to run it during the day, on a timer, than it is for the CO2 to be turned on every time the pH rises a bit? I question the stability of the pH controller.

My indicator rarely reaches green- it's almost always blue (and yes, I change the solution about every other week). But according to the formula, with a pH of 6.5 and a KH of 3, I should have 28 ppm of CO2. Should I just ignore the indicator?


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

If the KH of 3 is your tank water then Phosphates or other KH contributers may be included. The relationship between KH and PH and CO2 is based on KH being purely Carbonate. I'd say the Carbonate component of the KH in your tank accounts for less than the reading of three you have. I'd slowly decrease the PH via the controller (over several days) till you see a correct indication on the DC. (only valid with a confirmed 100% Carbonate based KH of 4 in the DC of course)

Pat

P.S. Watch the fish for any sign of distress and be ready to cut the CO2 and increase surface agitation regardless.


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## inkslinger (Jan 1, 2005)

I've ran my controller for a couple of years going on an off every time the ph rises, But like others would say plants don't use co2 at night only when the lights come on. So now I've been using my controller to look at where my ph reading is my co2 runs on a timer 1hr before an after the lights come on, I like to also use a Drop Checker.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

yeah, I have a 3 day weekend next week- I think I'll try running it on the timer instead and hammer out how many bubbles/sec I need. Thanks for the opinions!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I have my timer turn the CO2 solenoid on 3 hours before the lights come on and it cuts off 2 hours before the lights turn off. I am able to have a green 4 dKH drop checker when the lights turn on and it is green all during the light cycle. During the night, the drop checker turns back to blue. This is working well for me.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

what's your pH?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

My pH is 6.2 and the KH is 2.0.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok- and how much does it change over night?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

At night, I've seen a pH of 7.6 before the CO2 is turned on again. The drop checker is blue.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Interesting. That sounds like quite a swing- but I guess it's working.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

The ph swing caused by co2 injection cannot/does not hurt the animals in the tank. This is because it is a false reading. When co2 reacts with water it produces carbonic acid and that lowers the ph. No minerals are being stripped of the water which is the only way you can truely lower ph.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Interesting- so how does one know the "true" pH of their tank, a pH you could use to determine acceptable fish and shrimp inhabitants?


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

I asked that sane question a long time ago and found that unless you have very accurate and expensive test kits to measure all of the components of the water it's impossible.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok but I'm still confused- pH measures the amount of hydrogen ions in the water. So whether it comes from carbonic acid or salts shouldn't really matter- understandably, one would have a greater impact with a handful of salts rather than CO2 injection, especially at warmer temps where CO2 is less soluble in water. Hydrogen ions are either being released or bonded, though, regardless. 

Carbonic acid is a weak acid- maybe this is closer to your meaning. But it still behaves as an acid.

And I'm pretty sure there is such a thing as too much CO2 for the fish/inverts. For starters, CO2 is used to euthanized fish. I'm not saying it's very likely to happen by accident but it's possible.

Anyway, thanks nonetheless for the advice- I've noticed over the last few days at the pH hasn't moved around that much since connecting the CO2 to the timer. I think I'm going to go with LeftC and just continue running it this way, using the pH probe as a reference.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

I'm not sure how the actual measurement and what that entails is important here. Adding fert salts to your tank increases TDS which in turn increases ph. Using rocks either for a substrate or hardscape made of limestone or other rocks in that family that break down over time releasing Ca and Mg in the water raise ph. Using driftwood/peat in your tank lowers the ph by releasing tannins which are acidic. These are all ways to alter ph and will effect the readings untill they are removed. 

Co2 does the same thing lowering the ph but unlike the above instances, co2 does not need to be mechanically removed. Co2 just goes through a process called 'off gassing' where surface agitation creates an interaction with air and releases the co2 from the water. 

Hope this helps.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I have Amano shrimp and ghost shrimp in that aquarium. These aren't delicate like some shrimp, but they are fine. My fish are the Sawbwa resplendens like I have in my Avatar. These are somewhat delicate. They have been spawning the past couple of days. (And, eating their eggs too.) The CO2 induced pH change doesn't bother them at all just like bsmith mentioned.

If you want to test the pH of your aquarium, get a sample and let it sit out a couple of days. This way most of the CO2 will be flashed off. Then the main constituents determining your alkalinity and pH are left.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Emily6 said:


> .... I think I'm going to go with LeftC and just continue running it this way, using the pH probe as a reference.


May I add a word of warning. Milwaukee regulators have a bad stock needle valve according to 99.97% of the people that use them. I would not run it without either a good needle valve or a pH controller or even both. As a comparison, at one time I had Azoo regulators that had inconsistent needle valves. They worried the mess out of me until I bought pH controllers for them. My DS regulator that is running on this aquarium has an Ideal 52-1-12 needle valve that holds its setting. For the money, this needle valve is hard to beat. I was so glad to get rid of those Azoo's.

This is a suggestion. I am suggesting this to you so that a possible accident might not happen. You can run your pH controller with a timer like this. Just put the timer between the solenoid's power cord and the part of the pH controller that sends the signal to the solenoid. This way, you can still read the pH 24/7. No CO2 is added when the timer turns the solenoid off. Then when the timer turns the solenoid on, the pH controller can control it. You can use your 4 dKH drop checker to tune your pH controller for its optimum setting. You can move your drop checker around to see if you are getting a good dristribution. Be sure to calibrate your probe monthly and use a good 4 dKH solution. Your bubble count will determine how fast that it takes for the CO2 to reach your setting. My 3 hours before the lights come on and 2 hours before the lights turn off works for me. Your "mileage" may very though. Do note that I am no longer using a pH controller to control my pH like I am suggesting that you try. I trust my regulator and needle valve to do their jobs (and this is a big relief!). I can still read the pH any time that I want to.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Bsmith- now I see what you are saying. I thought you were implying that CO2 didn't actually change the pH- that somehow it interfered with the meter to give you wrong numbers. I am aware of the difference between dissolving solids altering pH and gases. Thanks for the calrification.

LeftC- that's a good suggestion. I bought my Co2 set-up a while ago as a set (I picked each piece and reviewed it carefully at the time but now I don't rememeber what I got). I don't know what my regulator is but it's not Azoo. My check valve is Azoo and I just saw it fail this past weekend- so I know I'll be replacing that ASAP. 

I think modest swings in pH caused by CO2 aren't a problem but what I'm talking about are accidents as you described with a failing needle valve or the like. Basically carbonating the tank.

Anyway, thanks for the advice!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Did my directions make sense as a way to hook it up? It was going on 3 in the morning when I wrote it. 

If your regulator is one of the preassembled units from a major manufacturer, it most likely has a "junk" needle valve. If it is a SuMo, GLA, Rex Grigg, etc model, it is a very good one.

Just reading your comments, you seem to trust your needle valve. If this is the case, you should be fine.

But, to be somewhat safe, you can use your pH controller as an lower limit so that when the pH reaches this value (whatever you set it at) the CO2 is turned off and the fish aren't gassed.

I like Clippard MCV-1BB inline brass check valves with the 11752-1 barbed fittings. I've never had one fail. If using the plastic check valves are working for you, just replace them on an yearly basis. I know that Azoo does have a plastic check valve made for CO2 duty, but I do not know if this is what that you have.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yeah they made total sense- I'm going to set it up today. I hate working in the cabinet- so cramped! But it's already getting cooler out so I think I need to set up my new heater too *grumble grumble*.

I do have a plastic Azoo check valve- it failed so miserably, however, I'm going to first see if I didn't put it on wrong or something. If that's not the case, I'll pick up a brass one.

I looked into it and I'm pretty sure I have a Milwaukee regulator- however, this is based on what the website says they offer now in the kit and when I bought it, I distinctly remember being able to upgrade some of the components. Now I don't see that option. Either way, that's a problem I don't have at the moment but will keep in mind. When a needle valve fails, does it just started burping Co2 into the tank without much control? I've never witnessed this problem.

Thanks for the advice!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Emily6 said:


> ... I'm pretty sure I have a Milwaukee regulator ... When a needle valve fails, does it just started burping Co2 into the tank without much control? ....


Some of the poorer needle valves just don't hold their flow rate setting. The rate can either increase or decrease. Some have poor machining tolerances, some are sensitive to temperature, some needle valves have a lot of "slop" and will not hold their setting. Some are even out of spec for our use.

If you plan on keeping your Milwaukee regulator, I suggest that you mount a very good needle valve inline after the bubble counter. This way, you open the Milwaukee's needle valve wide open and use the other needle valve for flow control.

Some good needle valve choices are the Fabco NV-55 or NV-55-18 with barbed fittings, an Ideal 52-1-12 or 52-1-11 needle valve with barbed fittings and a Swagelok, Nupro, ****** or Parker metering valve that is a low pressure and low flow model with a low Cv. You can get some very nice tubing fittings for these metering valves. Note: Do not use Swagelok, Nupro, ****** or Parker needle valves. These are far too coarse for our use. Go with their metering valves if you go this route.


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## nicewicz (May 16, 2010)

Good post and discussion. I too have the same setup as you all (Milwaukee pH controller, however, regulator solenoid and needle valve from GLA aquarium) and often question if my CO2 dosing makes it difficult for me to keep Amano shrimp (they often die rather quickly in my tank). A couple of things to consider:

-Flow is extremely critical to dispersing the CO2 around the tank, especially in larger tanks. My 65 gallon has a lot of ferns as well as HC and a few stems. Even though my CO2 is ramped up, I still see BBA. I've been working on increasing my flow by adjusting the outflow and this seems to help. Just because the drop checker says all is well, really only applies to the exact spot that the drop checker is located. You might do the experiment where you place the drop checker at different spots around the tank to see if your CO2 distribution is even. If not, modify (most likely increase) flow.

-Second, the pH controllers need frequent calibration. I find mine is off by 0.1-0.2 ppm when I calibrate it every ~6 months or so. This could amount to ~10-15 ppm swing in CO2 levels.

-Third, if you're using the pH controller to open up the taps, so to speak, adjust your flow so that it CO2 is not being released too quickly. I really didn't pay attention to this at the start; I was merely trying to replenish the CO2 without paying much attention to flow rate. That probably caused some shrimp deaths.

I like Left C's suggestion of more or less using the pH meter as just an instrument readout and not a "controller." I might try this method in the future. 

Not to hijack the thread, but I noticed Left C, that you are keeping Sawbwa Resplendens. Are they as shy as everyone says they are? I am purchasing a few now and would love to hear you experience.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

nicewicz said:


> ... Not to hijack the thread, but I noticed Left C, that you are keeping Sawbwa Resplendens. Are they as shy as everyone says they are? I am purchasing a few now and would love to hear you experience.


Maybe to answer your question about them better, nicewicz, I should describe where I have them at the moment. I have 20 of them in a 29g plant grow out tank. There are floating plants as well as various others including two large pieces of driftwood covered by moss and fissidens. When there weren't many floating plants, the little fellows stayed in the back of the aquarium hidden by the plants in a shoal type of arrangement. When I added more floating plants, they now tend to stay under them and being more visible now. They have bred some and mostly the males ate the eggs. The males are colored up really well. When I feed them, I turn off the filter, powerhead and CO2. They come out to eat and I can sit there and watch them. Recently, some of the males come to the front of the aquarium when I walk buy. I'm pretty sure that they are saying, "feed me." So, to answer your question, they are fairly shy, but not terribly so in this setting. When I start removing plants to go into another aquarium, they may exhibit their shy ways again. I just don't know for sure. I've had them for about one month now and they are just getting used to where they are. And, I am getting used to them as well. They don't form a tight school like real rummy nose tetras do and they aren't nearly as active. But, seeing as how that I've never kept them before, I am enjoying them very much. I was concerned about the males being nippy, but they aren't. I had read that they could be nippy if there are very few females. Also, I read that the males would display more and fight among themselves when there are very few females. I'm not seeing any major aggression issues. Maybe there have been a few quibbles, but no damage has been done. I have somewhere near a 50/50 mix. Would I purchase some more of these little guys? Most definitely, Yes!


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## nicewicz (May 16, 2010)

Left C: I just ordered 10 Sawbwa Resplendens from The Wet Spot, so I'm looking forward to seeing them! I'm going to have them in a 65 gallon heavily planted tank with zebra danios and some shrimp, so we'll see how that goes. Thanks for your response!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

That place has a huge selection of fish!!!! Thanks for the link!


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## nicewicz (May 16, 2010)

Yes, they are awesome. I've actually been there (I live in Durham, NC, btw). It has one of the best selections of freshwater fish in North America. I just received my Sawbwa Resplendens from them today and they are gorgeous. They don't seem to be as shy as advertised. I'd definitely buy from The Wet Spot again.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I'm glad that you like your S. resplendens. I wonder if Triangle Tropical Fish in Durham could get them?


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Sorry to change the subject back- I see a lot of conversation happened while I was busy. Stupid hurricane... 

Anyway, those are attractive fish- I need better schoolers for my tank. I got rainbow threadfins (apparently they were just scared in the store- not schooling)- they're really pretty up close but down right spastic to watch as a group. Not sure what to do there. :-/

So more than a week of altering the CO2 set up and already there's less algae in the tank. I haven't had a great look yet (got in late and the lights went out right after I peaked at the tank) but I'm hopeful that this is a good start.

About the CO2 drop checker- I keep mine at level with the filter intake on the other side of the tank. Even after adjusting the CO2 as we discussed, it's rarely green. The pH goes from 6.4 to 6.2- should I increase the CO2 a little more? I have the pH meter set for shut-off at 6.0 so I do have some wiggle room.

Thanks for all the great product advice! I'll start looking around for stuff- I still didn't buy a new check valve since having the CO2 on way more prevents the situation I had previously so I have a bit of time.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Less algae ... This is always good news.

I would lower the CO2 level more, but carefully watch your fish and critters for signs of stress. I want a green or even lime green drop checker with the 4dKH solution for good growth. My drop checker is already green when the lights turn on. You can move your drop checker around in your tank to see if your CO2 distribution is somewhat even.

Some people are perfectly satisfied with a blue green 4dKH drop checker and reduced lighting with reduced growth and less algae as well.

By all means pick up a check valve. Even if it is a cheapie, you may get some protection.

For a schooling fish, rummynose tetras are a blast to watch! My rummynose rasboras are probably like your threadfins. They just shoal and don't really school together.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yeah, I have an aquarium list going... I need an automatic feeder too. We have a vacation coming up and it's just too long to leave them with nothing.

Your rummynose tetras look great! I'm honestly thinking of selling my threadfins- they're display dance is really cool but with 9 of them all doing it at the same time constantly around the tank, it's just not peaceful to watch. And they chase each other around. Plus at a distance they're colors don't jive well with the rest of the tank. Oh well. 

Yeah, today's tank cleaning day so I'll move the drop checker around and see. Last night the pH was 6.2 just before the lights went out. 

I'm having a problem with surface scum and diatoms still. I know these are filtration issues but I've had them for over a month now with no test results indicating why. I stupidly cleaned the filter media in tap water in July and ever since then, I've had scum and diatoms. I'm just surprised it hasn't really recovered yet. :-/


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Emily6 said:


> Yeah, I have an aquarium list going... I need an automatic feeder too. We have a vacation coming up and it's just too long to leave them with nothing.


An automatic feeder would be a nice addition. Fish can easily go a week to 10 days without any food. It isn't a nice this to do though.



Emily6 said:


> Your rummynose tetras look great! I'm honestly thinking of selling my threadfins- they're display dance is really cool but with 9 of them all doing it at the same time constantly around the tank, it's just not peaceful to watch. And they chase each other around. Plus at a distance they're colors don't jive well with the rest of the tank. Oh well.


Rummynose tetras tickle me, but they can get on your nerves too. They are too active.

What colors are you thinking about?



Emily6 said:


> Yeah, today's tank cleaning day so I'll move the drop checker around and see. Last night the pH was 6.2 just before the lights went out.


 This will give you an idea of your CO2 distribution that may prove helpful.



Emily6 said:


> I'm having a problem with surface scum and diatoms still. I know these are filtration issues but I've had them for over a month now with no test results indicating why. I stupidly cleaned the filter media in tap water in July and ever since then, I've had scum and diatoms. I'm just surprised it hasn't really recovered yet. :-/


Can you increase your surface movement? This will break up the surface scum. If you do this, you will also need to increase your CO2 rate.

Another option, mollies will eat the surface scum. Maybe you could pick up a couple of male mollies for this. This way, you won't end up with a bunch of baby mollies.

You could add a few more otos to help with your diatoms.

Good luck with your tank!


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