# lowering pH and kH...many frustrations



## UltraBlue (Mar 8, 2011)

I have been using a pH adjuster (seachem acid buffer) with my tank for five months in order to make my water more accommodating to my EBR's and cardinal tetras. I have a couple questions regarding this kind of water treatment.

1) is it necessary to modify the water in this way? will fish adjust, particularly those types mentioned, to local water?

2)what are the best methods to adjust these parameters? I've seen buffers, ph downs, RO/DI water, peat, black water extracts, etc. I'm assuming RO water is ideal, but expensive and difficult to implement.

3) my buffer doesn't seem to hold and I believe its because it isn't overcoming the buffering capacity already in the water. It seems I would have to add large amounts and risk a pH crash at every water change. This doesn't seem like a good approach. Could my seiryu stones limit the pH buffer in regards to kH changes? Could the buffer be reducing pH and kH in the water, but the stones over time counteract that effect? the seachem buffer lowers kH and releases CO2. 

Last night I did a water change and decided to skip the buffer since its effects do not appear to be lasting and I thought it may not be beneficial. I ended up losing one cardinal within 20 minutes of the water change and an EBR today. The EBR i lost had been in the tanks, happy and healthy for months during most of that time I was adding buffer. The new rams (in the tank for a week) didn't seem stressed at all. This was their first water change. I feel like I did something stupid by not adding the buffer and adding a Tetra Black water extract instead. I have a regular GBR in another tank that I don't buffer or add anything at all and he is just fine, same for another who I recently gave to a friend, no problems with them in water as is out of the tap. Am i overcomplicating this? Am I making adjustments that aren't necessary and playing too much with the chemistry of the water which can have more of a detrimental effect on fish than the actual water pH and hardness itself?

Someone either comfort me or chastise me....and help me out while you are at it. 

I will test and post my tap parameters tonight ASAP. 

thanks to all.


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## XMX (Feb 17, 2011)

In my experience: 

1. I don't use any PH adjuster and my fishes are doing great in my hard water (PH ~7.6). I also have cardinals are they are fine. 

2. I regulate the water parameters for a couple of shrimps tanks. For these, I use a combination of RO and tap to get the ideal parameters. This method works for me because the tanks are small ( one 10g and one 20g).

3. Someone with more experience using the buffer solution should help answer this question.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Water has many minerals in it which can buffer the pH. The most common is carbonates, measured as KH. Some of the acid buffers include phosphates. 
Carbonates tend to buffer the water in the upper 7s to low 8s. When you add an acid to the water the pH will drop for a few hours, then bounce back up as the carbonate removes the added hydrogen from the acidic material. All you are doing is adding more and more minerals and salts to the water, and not getting it anywhere near what the fish would prefer. 

Fish are really looking for the right mineral level, not a specific pH. 

Adjust the GH and KH to suit the fish. Cards, Rams and similar fish would do best with GH and KH under 3 German degrees of hardness. Very low mineral level. Very soft water. Let the pH do what it wants. You can add peat moss to the water and see if that helps. Some fish appreciate the organic acids. 

Here are 3 things to try:
1) Run some tap water into a bucket and add some peat moss. (perhaps a gallon of water and a cup of peat moss-the exact amounts are not critical) Having some water movement would help, but just stirring once or twice a day by hand is enough. Measure GH, KH and pH for several days or a week. You do not have to test daily, but keep track of what happens to these values over a week or so. SOME peat moss seems to do a very good job of removing these minerals from the water, and can be used as a pre-treatment to prepare water for these fish, and in the aquarium filter to maintain this sort of water. 

2) Get a gallon of RO or distilled water from a store. Make several blends with your tap water and test GH, KH and pH. Let this test run for a week or so, also. See if the results are stable. 
Try:
25% RO + 75% Tap
50/50
75% RO + 25% Tap

3) Combine the tests. Once you have a recipe of RO + Tap that you like, add some peat moss and see what happens.

If you find a recipe that you like you will have to prepare the water ahead of time for water changes. Usually setting it up the day before works with peat moss. Make the mix of RO + Tap that works, add the peat moss (I use a nylon stocking). Run a small pump to circulate the water, and add an aquarium heater to keep the water warm. 

Think about how much RO water you will be buying. For the tests above it did not much matter what you paid for it, you probably did not even use the whole gallon. However, when you think about making fairly large weekly water changes you might want to look into getting an RO filter. 

Top offs will be with RO water.


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## UltraBlue (Mar 8, 2011)

Thank you for your responses. I felt my hunch that the acid buffer was ineffective was close to right. However, I made a big mistake by deciding not to add it one day. *slaps forehead*

Seems I may have caused some sort of osmotic shock. 

I have a very low flow RO unit we use for a 5 gallon jug in the fridge. I just didn't think it was practical for a 20 gallon water change. 

I will try the tests mentioned, Diana. The petstores here are lame, and don't have peat pellets, but peat moss could be found at a garden supply store i suppose. 

I measured parameters last night and this is what I had 12 dGH, 5 dKH, and pH measured 8.0 with my recalibrated pH probe, and much higher with a redsea freshtest kit. One is wrong, but the reading is still high.


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## UltraBlue (Mar 8, 2011)

here is a link to my local water report.

Could someone help me make sense of it and what it means for keeping blue rams: http://www.grandforksgov.com/Reports/Water_Report_2009.pdf

avg. pH in the report state it is 9.0!!! I know its not the pH necessarily that is the problem, its what is in the water, but damn.


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm very sorry for your losses.

First of all, RO water is absolutely your best option. You can get set up with a system for around $100 (plus the cost of water) Ozone is also an option, but one I have not tried, so don't really know how well it would work for you.
You can also purchase the water at the store - lots of options in most areas. My walmart has a vending machine that dispenses RO water.

If that's not possible, or too much of a hassel or too expensive, then you will probably be best off considering fish that are comfortable in the water you're keeping.

Something I noticed too, I looked at your water report, there are high levels of cholamines. Are you using a neutralizing agent that is strong enough for not only chlorine, but the more toxic chloramines? 

Using chemicals like the acid buffer will likely have inconsistant results because the organic load in your tank will change as time goes on. 

Good luck. Let me know if you would like some info about a good RO unit.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I see conflicting numbers for the KH, (carbonates, alkalinity) in the water report. Your test of 5 degrees KH suggests that there is enough of a buffer to keep the pH about neutral or so. 
I think your water company is adding something to keep the pH up. I know mine is! (KH about 4-5 degrees, pH in the upper 7s or higher)

I would start adding some RO to the tap water and see if that helps. 

Goal: 
Soft water fish would prefer GH under 5 German degrees of hardness. (under 100 ppm) and Cardinals and Rams under about 3 degrees (60 ppm). 
With 12 degrees GH you might test 25% tap water + 75% RO to see if that gets the GH into the right range. 
Then I would try to make the KH about equal to whatever you can get the GH down to. 
Then run the water through some peat moss to add the organic acids these fish seem to need. (well, Rams anyway, Cards are not black water fish) 

Yes, the chloramines seems really high! My water tests 1 ppm chlorine and 1 ppm ammonia from chloramines. 
With the level as high as reported from your water company I think I would be using a double dose of dechlor. Read the label to be sure of how much chloramines your dechlor will handle.


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## kamel_007 (Jan 7, 2006)

i mix my tap with ro water, my gh 10 kh id ont know, ph 6.5 and i have co2 pressurized. My angels and discus are doing good, my angels laying eggs monthly..


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