# Science Project Help



## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

First of all, this is my first post, so let me introduce myself,im Carlos.
and am in need of help in a science proj., as you can tell

I'm doing a project in which i will *test the effects of pharmaceuticals(medicine) on aquatic plants*

Now i need to know all of the following:

What plants are better for me to use[im on a budget(the cheaper the better, but i like quality, too)]
I live in North Pasadena,east of Houston, TX so if you know a store,that will help out a lot.
I don't really like the idea of ordering them online

I don't know what types of pharmaceuticals i will use yet,but if you know something , please advise me

I'm going to use 2 tanks(1.5 gallons each) they are in the shape of a vertical rectangular prism, 
and i believe they're tetra care  but this will be my first experience with live aquatic plants, 
but not with tanks and thats all i can think of for now

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP...


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You picked a difficult project! What are the dimensions of those 1.5 gallon tanks, how tall, how wide - side to side, and what is the distance front to back? To grow most aquatic plants you need a substrate, which can be ordinary swimming pool filter sand, you need light, which can be a desk lamp with a spiral power saver fluorescent bulb, for each tank, some appropriate aquatic plant fertilizers, and the right plants. You can get a pair of cheap desk lamps from any number of places, so that is easy. I can see you needing to spend about $20 for the two lamps, about $5 for the two light bulbs, possibly nothing for the filter sand (you can also use somewhat coarse play sand). For fertilizers, there may be an APC member living near you who could give or sell you the small amount you would need, for almost nothing.

The best plants might be Egeria densa, also known as Anacharis, see http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=92&category=genus&spec=Egeria for information about it. Most local fish stores sell that if they sell any aquatic plants at all, and it is cheap.

Now for the "drugs". That is a hard one. The only "drug" we use is erethromycin, which is an antibiotic that will kill most harmful fish bacteria, green water algae, and, I believe, Ich, a parasite on fish. Unless you can somehow cause a problem to occur in the two tanks, this isn't going to work. So, I suggest just dosing one tank with aspirin. I have no idea what that will do, if anything, but that would be the fun part of the project.

You would need to let the two tanks grow their plants for a month or so, to get them growing good, and to be sure you can keep the two tanks identical when they should be identical. Then you could add one aspirin tablet to one tank and observe the tanks for another month.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

thanks for the information on the aquatic plant ill keep that in mind,
Also, can you send me or post ,more information on the substrate I might have to use?I'm thinking to use the plant you mentioned.
I'm putting in some picture illustrating the tanks;if that will help to y'all

I dont feel like opening the wrapping around the tank but for now it at least fives you an idea of what im working with



















It already comes with an LED light and filter ,and 
ill discuss the pharmaceuticals with my instructor


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The problem is that the light is not intense enough to grow any plant except moss, and grow it well enough to see any difference a drug would make. Because it is so deep, compared to the size of the tank, and the light is so high above the water, you will have very little light that reaches the bottom of the tank.

You might be able to keep anubias plants alive in it, or mosses, but they wouldn't grow enough for your test to work. I suggest you read http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-planted-aquariums/8790-basics.html and http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ums/14684-new-tank-setup-guide-parts-1-a.html to learn more about planted tanks.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

Well I'm sure that i can get something worked out with the light, 
that wont be a problem.

But, assuming i buy some Anacharis, what substrate should i use?
and why would the aquatic plant fertilizer be necassery?
and what brand should i buy,if i needed it?

I hope im not giving you any trouble, and i do appreciate 
the help your giving me.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You aren't giving any of us any trouble, since we are here because we enjoy doing this. Right now, you need to do some research, so you will know enough about growing aquatic plants in an aquarium to be able to do your project. That is why I suggested the two threads in this forum. Once you do that you will have most of your questions answered and can make some good decisions about how to proceed.

It won't work for us to tell you each step to take, because you won't understand why we suggest what we do. You just need to spend an hour or two reading, and you will find this to be much more interesting.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

ok, i see what you mean, a good project is a good researched project.

Well off to my reading....

on the ben b's basics , is there like a version where i can copy and paste it? i'll most likely
add it on to my research sources.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Another plant that is easy to grow is Hornwort, Ceratophyllum demersum. It is mostly a floating plant but I and others have got it stuck in the gravel. There are 2 types you can see at plantgeek.net.

Are you going to do a el natural tank style? It doesn't use ferts. There is a section on it at this forum.

Here is an interest article on how to grow plants cheap. http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html
I read it after I got my tank set up. If I tear it down I will be doing this.

If you buy plants at petsmart beware that not all of the plants are true aquatic plants and will die within a year.
I have seen small tanks like that with desk lamps over them. That is a desk lamp with a flouresant tube. You ought to look at the nano tanks in the aquascaping section. It will get you hooked on planted aquariums.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

mex2tx said:


> ok, i see what you mean, a good project is a good researched project.
> 
> Well off to my reading....
> 
> ...


When I want to copy and paste for my use, I just highlight the text on the screen, while reading, copy it and paste it on a word processor page. I do that with each "page" of text as I scroll down reading it. Then I edit what I pasted to make it fit what I wanted it for. Since you aren't selling this, or even taking credit for writing it, I can't see how anyone here could object.

Dawntwister's suggestions are good ones. If you used hornwart as the plant you wouldn't need to concern yourself with a substrate. It grows fine just floating in the water. That makes the whole project easier to do and easier to evaluate.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

hoppycalif said:


> When I want to copy and paste for my use, I just highlight the text on the screen, while reading, copy it and paste it on a word processor page. I do that with each "page" of text as I scroll down reading it. Then I edit what I pasted to make it fit what I wanted it for. Since you aren't selling this, or even taking credit for writing it, I can't see how anyone here could object.
> 
> *Dawntwister's suggestions are good ones. If you used hornwart as the plant you wouldn't need to concern yourself with a substrate. It grows fine just floating in the water. That makes the whole project easier to do and easier to evaluate*.


Thanks , but i want to recreate a freshwater environment (minus the fish,and amphibians) and a planted aquatic plant will have a better image.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Through a long debate, at another forum, I have found that if the spectrum is not right for the plants you have you have to add ferts. Some plants like hornwort, java fern and mosses have low requirements, thus don't need ferts.

If you want a biotype tank it is cheaper to buy a plant package. Perhaps there is a dealer near you. Check out EBay. With the weather as it is now it is a good time to have plants shipped.

What is the objective of your experiment? Are you doing this for yourself, a class, or a business?

Another person whom is in to experiments is Homer_Simpson at this forum.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

One obvious pharmaceutical to test is KNO3, potassium nitrate, or KH2O4, mono potassium phosphate, which are plant fertilizers. You could do one tank with nothing added as a fertilizer, or with just one of the above chemicals added, and the other with both.

Another, easy chemical to use is sodium bicarbonate, which is Arm & Hammer baking soda. That provides carbonates in the water, measured as the carbonate hardness, or KH.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Magnesium sulfate, epson salts, is another item you could test. It raises the gh of water.
Also sodium chloride, aquarium salt.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

For a science project I think you should give up trying to make one or both of those tanks look aquascaped. They are just too small, with too little light for that to work out well. One question your project could test is what is the effect of brackish water on X plants. Another is, does high phosphate increase the amount of algae that grows in an aquarium.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

It wasn't mentioned in the articles, or maybe i skipped over that part, but do the plants require a bubble stone for oxygen?

i already bought the plants and the substrate ,but i have to go to a mandatory family celebration and will buy the rest of the supplies right after the celebration...

oh and by the way hoppycalif i already said i'd buy more lighting, and by a freshwater environment
all i mean is plants,and stones... 

and to dawntwister: 
the objective of my experiment is noted in the first post, and I'm doing this by myself

Thanks for your support


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The plants don't need an air stone to get enough oxygen, but it does add a little more water circulation, so it isn't a bad idea to use one. Which plants and substrate did you get?


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks, and here are a 2 pictures:
*Right after the assembly of the tank:*








*The Next Morning*









*And I was going to use fluorite, but the petsmart employee said they only had a 7kg bag for that brand so instead mentioned this: First Layer Pure Laterite*


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Congratulations! You are off to a good start. Have you decided what substance you want to test the effects of?


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

thanks, that means a lot, and i put a lot of effort into the start of my first planted aquariums

Well, I'm going to try to look in common household medicines.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

I'm doing a project in which i will test the effects of pharmaceuticals(medicine) on aquatic plants
So you are doing this to get a grade in a class? 

Are you going to wait a few weeks to see if the plants grow well? Since you are dealing with a plant that is considered a weed I am uncertain if it will give you the results you want. True it didn't grow for me but my water is very soft. I only know of 1 other person whom had problem with this plant.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

dawntwister said:


> Are you going to wait a few weeks to see if the plants grow well? Since you are dealing with a plant that is considered a weed I am uncertain if it will give you the results you want. True it didn't grow for me but my water is very soft. I only know of 1 other person whom had problem with this plant.


In order to do any test and have the results mean something you first have to get both tanks growing well, and about the same. Only then can you "dose" the tank with what you are testing, and watch to see what effect it had. I agree with dawntwister - that is a very easy plant to grow, but it can be temperamental and just die for no apparent reason. I found that the better I treated it, the more likely it seemed to be for it to die.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm in a Pre-AP Science Class 
and doing a science experiment is required by every student in Pre-AP
I know ill get 1st place at the campus fair( now there's more this year competition though), i have for the past 2 years, and always do something relating to botany. Ill probably place 1st or 2nd at District Fair, but don't really expect to place at the Houston Science and Engineering Fair (maybe just maybe honorable mention), but do plan to compete in I-Sweep International Sustainable World (Energy, Engineering, and Environment) 
Project Olympiad. Ill be observing plant growth, discoloration, death of plants, etc.



dawntwister said:


> I'm doing a project in which i will test the effects of pharmaceuticals(medicine) on aquatic plants
> So you are doing this to get a grade in a class?
> 
> Are you going to wait a few weeks to see if the plants grow well? Since you are dealing with a plant that is considered a weed I am uncertain if it will give you the results you want. True it didn't grow for me but my water is very soft. I only know of 1 other person whom had problem with this plant.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

That sounds very interesting! Be sure to let us know how you made out, and tell us some of your results too. I had my first aquarium when I was in high school, but I didn't have a clue how to make plants grow.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Can't wait to hear the results.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

thanks for your encouragement ....


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

Well after almost a month i finally finished my science project
and it turned out that the aquatic plants in the tank with the cough suppressants took less time to sprout new buds, but in the long run had a slower growth rate overall. Meanwhile the aquatic plants in the tank without the pharmaceuticals didn't sprout as fast but grew taller.

The filter in tank 1(tank w/ med.) bubbled after about 2 weeks and began showing signs of murky water. The gravel floor appeared to grow a white layer, which i believe was the medicine settling to the gravel floor. The plants had a brownish color to them.

The plants in tank 2(the ones w/o the med.) flourished and were greener, and had clear water. Below i will post some of my pictures from my experiment.

Note that i did not try to create the perfect aquatic environment so , of course it does not really display natural beauty but scientific success.


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## clearleaf (Oct 4, 2008)

Interesting. What kind of cough suppressant and how much? Did you add anything to the non-antitussive tank? And most importantly: did any of the plants in either tank show signs of severe coughing? 

Seriously though, nice work and good luck! I have my own theories about what caused the bubbling and cloudiness, but I'm curious what you found.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Why did you decide on cough syrup? I thought you were going to try something like baking soda. Have you tested the ph and kh? Oh, you know I found out the reason that plant didn't grow for me is because it will melt if aquarium salt is added and I had salt in my tank. You know there are many different salts you could test, calcium sulfate.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

clearleaf said:


> Interesting. What kind of cough suppressant and how much? Did you add anything to the non-antitussive tank? And most importantly: did any of the plants in either tank show signs of severe coughing?
> 
> Seriously though, nice work and good luck! I have my own theories about what caused the bubbling and cloudiness, but I'm curious what you found.


I used Robitussin cough suppressant. No the tank without the added pharmaceuticals was basically a control tank just to see the contrast between a normal growing aquatic plant and the effects of pharmaceutical pollution..

Well i have just a hint that the plants in tank one seemed that the medicine had an effect that because the plant did not seem able to progress as fast as it should it seemed to think that if it sprouted then maybe it would survive the effects of the cough suppresent. Just a guess , though.

Thanks for every bodies support.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

dawntwister said:


> Why did you decide on cough syrup? I thought you were going to try something like baking soda. Have you tested the ph and kh? Oh, you know I found out the reason that plant didn't grow for me is because it will melt if aquarium salt is added and I had salt in my tank. You know there are many different salts you could test, calcium sulfate.


no that was what a member suggested i should try, but i took the simple path, and unfortunately the smellier too. Seriously, i still can't take the pharmaceutical smell out of the gravel and tank..:tape2:


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

What was the purpose of this experiment? What did you learn from this?

Have you tried washing with vinegar diluted in bowling water or baking soda?


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

As ive noted before , and said,
To test the effects of pharmaceutical pollution on the aquatic environment.
Which will be the 3 anacharis plants being affected by a common household cough suppressant.


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## clearleaf (Oct 4, 2008)

Keep in mind that the 'active ingredients' in the cough medicine are not the only ingredients you are putting into the water column. There's a reason it's called cough 'syrup'.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

So when is the campus fair? Let us know how it goes.


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## mex2tx (Oct 9, 2008)

dawntwister said:


> So when is the campus fair? Let us know how it goes.


1.So we had no campus fair, unfortunately, but the teachers picked the top 25 from the pre-AP classes. 
I, got picked as t*op 25 from my school*, but had no judging prep

2.We had the *secondary district fair* at the local community college and got BEST IN SHOW, aka First Place in the ENTIRE DISTRICT from the schools that went. Which means i got 1st in my category: Environmental Science.

3.The Next Fair is in March which hopefully with the committee's ok , due to my unfiled paperwork about the safety of using "drugs" and something else, but if they say its OK i'll go to the regional fair: The Houston Engineering and Science Fair at the GRB CC in downtown, so i'm hoping to do good.


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## NowMed (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it would be awesome if you could relate your tank to a human body. Or use what we know about the body and apply that to your tank. 

People get rid of things like carbonic acid by buffing it with sodium bicarb, just like in your tank it acts as a buffer. 

Another way people get rid of acid is though respiration. A byproduct of this process is CO2, which your tank also needs. 

It would be interesting if you maintain a good CO2 level (30ppm) by running a low ph high acid tank and converting the acid to Co2 though some kind of respiratory, or filtration, process. Kind of running your tank like you run your body.


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## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

So what did you learn from your experiment?


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