# Help! Ph is off the chart.



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Every time I check the water of my 10G tank my ph is high. Amonia levels are low. Nitrate, Nitrite, and ppm total hardness are in the safe zone. The ppm total alkalinity is high. I dose with ph decreaser. I don’t think it is the permanent solution. 

I read that plants can affect the ph. I have: java fern, wisteria, hygophilia corymbosa, hygorphilia polysperma, anubias barteri, Christmas moss, and various crypts. The plants are started to melt. Some crypts have holes. Looks like something ate them. Possibly the snails ate algae off of them and left hole? They are planted in organic top soil with sand on top.

My fish, 1 male betta and 2 corys’, are doing fine. I have been feeding them 2x a day to prep them for my vacation. Which was going to start Nov 15 but plans changed? It will probably be the beginning of next year when I go. 

I am using an aqua HOB filter with activated carbon and floss. I had turned if off for a few days and put an air stone in. For I didn't think a filter was necessary, since I have an abundance of plants. The 10G tank was to be the starter tank and then I was going to move everything into a 30G tank. Since we are having a drought here in Ga., the 10G tank will be the only 1 I use until the water restrictions are lessened.

Any suggestions as to what I can do would be appreciated. I am on a tight budget though, thus can't spend a lot on additives.


----------



## Paul Munro (Aug 5, 2007)

Hi, I'm no expert BUT, aerating your aquarium will raise ph and oxidize nutrients present in the water.

Carbon filtering for planted aquariums is pointless as the carbon strips the water of nutrients causing deficiency.

PH buffers are, well rubbish!

Use CO2, or RO water mixed with tap water to give desired PH

(Example, my tap water is PH 8. RO water PH 6.8 30% Tap + 70% RO = PH7.2 ish)

Then bring it down slightly by adding CO2!

Job done.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Paul Munro said:


> Hi, I'm no expert BUT, aerating your aquarium will raise ph and oxidize nutrients present in the water.
> 
> Carbon filtering for planted aquariums is pointless as the carbon strips the water of nutrients causing deficiency.
> 
> ...


To add co2 seems expensive to me for most require a presurized canister. I am beginning to think the fish hobby is not for us whom are on a tight budget.
Is it possible that removing the filter will decrease the ph? Then what will I do about the brown tint that appeared when I wasn't using it?


----------



## Paul Munro (Aug 5, 2007)

My advice would be to keep the filter (remove the carbon though), do small water changes (like 10% every two weeks) and the ph will lower naturally as this is a fact that over time water in aquaria becomes acidic. Perhaps collect rainwater in a bucket outside (this has a lower ph than tap water) well atleast in the UK.

Check this product out - you can buy it much cheaper than the listed price here too

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sera-CO2-Star...5228242QQihZ001QQcategoryZ66794QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Paul Munro (Aug 5, 2007)

You're right. It's expensive

You would not believe me if i told you how much i have spent on my small 60L in the last year...!


----------



## boet (Feb 24, 2007)

I am not an expert either but I don't think you should have any Ammonia levels at all.... Definitely do some 10-20% WC daily until ammonia is gone.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Paul Munro said:


> My advice would be to keep the filter (remove the carbon though), do small water changes (like 10% every two weeks) and the ph will lower naturally as this is a fact that over time water in aquaria becomes acidic. Perhaps collect rainwater in a bucket outside (this has a lower ph than tap water) well atleast in the UK.
> 
> Check this product out - you can buy it much cheaper than the listed price here too
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sera-CO2-Star...5228242QQihZ001QQcategoryZ66794QQcmdZViewItem


I like the idea about adding rain water. If I can't get enough rain water here in Ga, I will use some bottle water. Using the co2 item you suggested would mean I would have constantly buy pellets. I want my tank to be a self substaining tank. That is I why added live plants.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

boet said:


> I am not an expert either but I don't think you should have any Ammonia levels at all.... Definitely do some 10-20% WC daily until ammonia is gone.


I can't do daily water changes, for I live in drought state Ga. thanks to the polititians.


----------



## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Probably the easiest way to lower the pH is to cut back on your lighting levels. The plants on your list can all take quite low lighting levels, and if you cut back to around one to two watts (fluorescent) per gallon their growth may slow, but their CO2 uptake will also slow, and that will get your pH lower. What is your pH reading by the way? 8? 9?


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

HeyPK said:


> Probably the easiest way to lower the pH is to cut back on your lighting levels. The plants on your list can all take quite low lighting levels, and if you cut back to around one to two watts (fluorescent) per gallon their growth may slow, but their CO2 uptake will also slow, and that will get your pH lower. What is your pH reading by the way? 8? 9?


The reading was off the chart at the pet store. That is all I remember. So shocked and dissappointed. For the tank looks fine. Plants are melting a little but I have to look close to see that. For lighting I just have two flouresant bulbs screwded in the walmart tank top. On my off days they stay on a lot. I also have indirect light from south window.


----------



## evercl92 (Aug 14, 2006)

Finding out the actual number of the pH value will at least give you a starting point. Do you have any rocks in your tank, say from your yard? I'm not totally sure of the geology of GA, but here in OH a large percentage of the rock outside is limestone. Adding limestone to your tank will cause pH to increase and buffer it to stay there. 

You don't need to run carbon in your filter.

Levels such as "high", "low", and "safe zone" don't really help, as none of us here know what that references. Low of one company may be 1.0, where another says 0.5. "Safe zone" is more than arbitrary, and if that's the only levels the test kit shows, they need a new test kit or you need a new LFS.

-insert comment about test strips being notoriously inaccurate

Don't use pH 'buffers' from the store shelf. A lot of these use phosphate as the buffer, which can lead to algae. Besides, a stable pH is more important than an exact pH. If your fish and plants are acting just fine, don't worry about it.


----------



## bdement (Jun 4, 2007)

I don't really buy it that your pH is "off the charts." Fish are infinitely more sensitive to extremes in pH than plants are, and if they're alive, I don't think pH is a problem.

The pin holes in your crypts is crypt rot. Crypt rot occurs when conditions change suddenly (at least quicker than the crypts can cope with it, which is not very quick at all). They'll lose those leaves and grow back new ones in time.

Be very wary of collecting rainwater, don't forget the existence of "acid rain," particularly if you live near any sizable city. 

Your fish are fine, and your only plant problem is crypt rot, which is temporary, I don't see what your problem(s) is/are?


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

evercl92 said:


> Finding out the actual number of the pH value will at least give you a starting point. Do you have any rocks in your tank, say from your yard? I'm not totally sure of the geology of GA, but here in OH a large percentage of the rock outside is limestone. Adding limestone to your tank will cause pH to increase and buffer it to stay there.
> 
> You don't need to run carbon in your filter.
> 
> ...


The LFS owner said ph was probably around 9. For reading was above his chart. Until I get ph down I can't buy anymore fish. For the ph at his store is much lower. I just have pool sand over top soil. The plants are just starting to look stressed.
Mardel strip test shows nitrate 30, nitrate.5, hardness120, alkilinity 80, ph 8.4.


----------



## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Betta's in 8.2 ph with not much problem.
Plants seem okay, so does the shrimp.

I have shell in there, and the substract is from top fin that I think leaks caco3.
My water was hard 
Part of the problem can be for me, evapouration so the 200ml water additions every 2 weeks slowly builds up minerials even though our water is real soft.

Could use destilled water.
Maybe peat moss or driftwood (rotting causing lower pH).


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

newbie314 said:


> Betta's in 8.2 ph with not much problem.
> Plants seem okay, so does the shrimp.
> 
> I have shell in there, and the substract is from top fin that I think leaks caco3.
> ...


I am going to try distilled water. For worried that peat moss will give out a brown haze. I don't have room for my driftwood.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

newbie314 said:


> Betta's in 8.2 ph with not much problem.
> Plants seem okay, so does the shrimp.
> 
> I have shell in there, and the substract is from top fin that I think leaks caco3.
> ...


I gather from your info bettas don't mind a high ph. The other fish are corys' and I think they are hardy fish. Now I can relax. I was so worried my fish were going to die again. They are easy to replace but I don't want to be the cause of their death.

Next I want to get a butterfly ram and a khuli loach. LFS had a ram but he doesn't want to sell me anything until ph comes down. I believe rams are ok with high ph but the extreme differences could cause shock.


----------



## Homer_Simpson (Apr 2, 2007)

I agree with the other posters who are telling you that as long as your fish and plants appear healthy don't worry. Fish and many plants seem to have a tolerance for a wide variance in PH and as others stated, it is dramatic PH fluctuation rather than the PH itself that will cause problems for you. I have a 40 gallon that started off as a non-planted tank. It is a community tank, meaning that it has fish that by text book definition have differing PH preferences. Some so called experts would even caution against placing fish in tanks with PH levels not in the ideal range. The person I bought the tank from 9 years ago, put in shells for whatever stupid reason(the tank only had regular gravel and cichlids were never kept in the tank). When I first tested the PH it was 8.5. I did not remove the shells and placed different fish in their and some were said to prefer much lower PH levels. The PH stayed at a constant 8.5, year after year, after year and many of the fish are still alive and healthy, eventhough many experts stated that the fish with the preference for lower PH would not do well. The only fish that I lost was a SAE after 9 years and that is because the tank got an overdose of C02.

Right now, the tank is an algae farm because I made some stupid mistakes when I converted it to a planted tank. With the c02 injection the PH is fluctuates between 6.5-6.8. The fish are doing well and it is interesting to note how they adapted to a drop in PH over time from 8.5 to 6.8. Now this drop occured gradually over many years and months and that is probably why my fish survived. If the drop happened overnight, my fish would have all died from PH Shock. To make a long story short, it is consistency of PH not the PH itself that will cause you problems. Watch your fish and plants, drip acclimitize any new fish you add, and avoid huge frequent PH fluctuations. And DON'T USE PH REDUCING CHEMICALS I went through this stage where I monkeyed around with PH buffers and had more fish die than you can imagine. Also it only temporarily worked. The chemical would make the PH drop from 8.5 to 7 within a day, but within hours of this the PH would quickly climb back up to 8.5 and stay there.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

I got the ph down to 7.4. Did this by adding some more water with a little ph down added. Also disassembled driftwood from slate and put the driftwood pieces in the tank. For I didn’t have room for the slate platform, since I have a lot of plants.

Tested my tap water and found it no longer is 7.4. It is 8.4 now. Possibly because I live in drought state Ga the water is going through changes. 

From all the info I have gotten here I realize the LFS owner was wrong about that I can’t buy anymore fish untill I lower the ph to 7.0. If the ph goes up I am not going to do anything. Just acclimate new fish longer. 

Thank you everyone.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

dawntwister said:


> I got the ph down to 7.4. Did this by adding some more water with a little ph down added. Also disassembled driftwood from slate and put the driftwood pieces in the tank. For I didn't have room for the slate platform, since I have a lot of plants.
> 
> Tested my tap water and found it no longer is 7.4. It is 8.4 now. Possibly because I live in drought state Ga the water is going through changes.
> 
> ...


It sounds like your tank is doing just fine.

Remember that test kits don't always work the way they're supposed to. And many LFS store owners aren't as knowledgeable as they think they are.

As long as your fish and the majority of plants are doing okay, I would sit back and enjoy the tank. 

Ironically, more fish in your tank would lower the pH. The problem with adding new fish, though, is the risk of introducing disease. But that's a problem for another day.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> It sounds like your tank is doing just fine.
> 
> Remember that test kits don't always work the way they're supposed to. And many LFS store owners aren't as knowledgeable as they think they are.
> 
> ...


Why does adding fish lower the pH? I will be putting 3 platty in a fish bowl for a few day with water from established tank and airstone. I'll leave them in there for a few days. Thus hopefully not introducing any disease.


----------



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> Why does adding fish lower the pH? I will be putting 3 platty in a fish bowl for a few day with water from established tank and airstone. I'll leave them in there for a few days. Thus hopefully not introducing any disease.


Fish respiration causes the pH to lower while plant photosynthesis will cause the pH to rise. It's in Ms. Walstad's book(pg. 4, I believe).


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Red_Rose said:


> Fish respiration causes the pH to lower while plant photosynthesis will cause the pH to rise. It's in Ms. Walstad's book(pg. 4, I believe).


That is very interesting. Thanks, for I don't have the book. Just was given links from someone at utube to see how NPT is set up.


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

When the plants are getting light they use carbon dioxide (which is acidic). That raises pH. pH should be the highest right before lights out. At nite, both plants and fish produce CO2, so pH should be the lowest right before lights on.

As long as you're not showing ammonia, pH up around 8 isn't a problem.
If you are showing ammonia, higher pH gives you less leeway on ammonia toxicity.
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

Added spagna moss in a bag to the tank; for I am concerned about my German gold ram. He is no longer bright yellow as when I bought him. Now the ph of the water is 6.8. Future water changes I will have to do with water aged with the addition of spagna moss. Still he is not bright yellow. I suspect he was given some hormones to boost his color for sale. Tis something I read is done to rams.


----------



## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Quit chasing pH

What is the KH of tap and tank?
Lower the KH, and the pH will come down.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

I put spagna moss in a bag in the tank and now the ph is neutral. I don't have a kit to test the kh, yet. Bidding for one on Ebay now. Now I have to do small water changes with aged water to not upset the balance I have created. Woops!! Forgot I already posted this. Can someone remove it.


----------



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

dawntwister said:


> For lighting I just have two flouresant bulbs screwded in the walmart tank top. On my off days they stay on a lot. I also have indirect light from south window.


I was just reading your post this evening. Did you use the fluorescent spiral bulbs that are about 13 watts? If you did they are supposed to output about 60 watts. That is high light. That could explain why your plants are melting and your ph is high. Your plants are outgrowing the CO2 in your water and your nutrients. I have the 10 gallon kit that comes with the hood. I put the 13W fluorescent spirals in my hood. I also hooked up a do-it-yourself with yeast CO2 generator. I used an empty 3 liter soda bottle. Made a hole in lid, inserted a check valve and put air tubing to an airstone. The gas given off is CO2. It suits my 10 gal tank fine. It's pretty consistent for such a small tank. I just watch it until it runs out and replace it. That matches my high light. With high light you have to fertilize. Everything is balanced. Maybe your light is your problem.


----------



## dawntwister (Sep 29, 2007)

I just bought the floresant screw in bulbs from pet section. They have 2 long u shape tubes. Tex Gal I would like to know more about your co2 generator. Actually it is just the sags on the bottom that are melting.


----------

