# Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.



## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Here are some pics of my L. "Pantanal"


































It grows as at a moderate rate, and I'm happy with it's speed. My lighting is an ADA Solar I 12 inches from the top of my 60-P, and it's on for 8 hours per day. Substrate is Aquasoil over Powersand.

My fertilizing regime is 1 pinch of KH2PO4 on Sun, Tues, and Thurs. I add 1 smidgen of epsom's salt, CSM+B, and K2SO4 daily except Saturdays. 50% water change on Sunday.

I have not been dosing KNO3 because about three weeks ago I bought two liters of six-month old aquasoil to top off what I already had, and since then I have been having a steady ammonia supply of 1 ppm. Nitrites rose but have been staying at zero, and nitrate levels have been reading a steady 20 ppm daily. THIS is the only thing I can think of that could cause my lack of color.... but Mr. Barr says it doesn't even matter, so it's hard to know what to think. My kit is calibrated and accurate.

I use pressurized co2 injected into my Eheim Ecco 2236. It comes on two hours before lights turn on and goes off one hour before lights go out. I KNOW I have plenty of co2. Plants pearl great, the drop checker is a lime green by the time the lights turn on and within two hours is yellow. At the end of the day it's urine yellow. I have no fish/shrimp/snails.

Temp is 70-72. KH is 1-2 degrees, GH is about 3 degrees, PH is 6.

I can't think of any logical reason why my plants are pale. The only thing I can think of is the fact that the nitrates are hovering around 20 ppm while the aquasoil I added does it's thing, but Mr. Barr says it doesn't matter.

In addition to the lack of color, the plants look pale.... I also dose ADA's ECA every week at water changes, 24 drops. I added double that this week. The only really colorful place on the plant is the top portion of the stem. The plant it's self grows OK and the stem seems relatively thick. I also have some curling leaves as you can see. I don't know if this amount of curling is normal or not. The growth it's self isn't coming out distorted or anything, but the leaves curl like claws a little bit as you can see in the pics.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

They have a blush at the top. I add iron. If mine gets shaded or lower light it will get pale. I don't know how much light you have but mine loves it when I turn on the metal hallides. It really colors up and grows like crazy. Here's a px of mine. I had a conversion to emersed leaf with poor CO2 but it's converting back.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

It's a 150 Watt metal halide that's just like a month old, with a clean glass cover over it  I dose Iron. ADA's ECA is an Iron and amino acid supplement and my dose of CSM+B is double what is called for  There is also 20 oz's of laterite in the media as another iron source.

It's mind boggling. Even with a nitrate level of 20 ppm it shouldn't be so pale, should it? My test kit is accurate. It's just like three or four inches from the top of the water. You can also see that the shorter stems are the same, so its not like they get more colorful the taller they get.

The slight curl bothers me, too. Could I have a calcium deficiency? I KNOW I have PLENTY of co2 and light, and I dose the above mentioned ferts and do 50% WC's religiously.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

There's a current thread about Boron deficiency as pertains to leaf curling that is pretty interesting. You might want to check that out.

I have heard that Ca might cause a not so green color, kind of yellow. Check out this chart:

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

You have a deficiency for sure. Could be K, maybe even nitrogen even though you have some fresh AS, stems tend to pull their nutrients more from the water the then the roots. The leaves shouldnt be curled like that. How are the other plants looking?


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

They all look totally fine and are growing great. Even the HC is spreading quickly and growing well, and it's a really nitrogen hungry plant or so I have heard. I almost have a whole carpet and it's thick enough to consider thinning in the middle.

I add a smidgen of K every day. That's like three pinches each week. My nitrates have been hovering around 20 ppm for a while. Plus the K that's in the KH2PO4 and KNO3 ( but havn't been adding any since the ammonia has been steadily converting to nitrate to keep it about 20 ppm since I added the two liters of six month old A.S to my new A.S. )

I'm bumfuzzled. My nitrate kit is calibrated. My phosphate level is about 3 ppm or so.

I just whacked back my rotala colorata. It grew fine but wasn't colorful at all. Just green and got a shade more colorful when it was at the top of the tank. The A. reineckii (sp?) grows great and is deep red. The T. fluviatilis grows fine.

The only thing I havn't tried is adding 24 drops of ECA daily, which is what the instructions say to do when this happens. I don't want to use at much if I don't have to, since the stuff cost 20 bucks a bottle and that would be almost two months worth of the "maintenance dose."

I also double dose CSM+B. I do this because I had been doing it for months before I realized what I was doing, and am hesitant to change it since it seemed to work. Could I be overdosing something?

When I was dosing Nitrates I was doing 1 pinch three times each week. Plants weren't red then either. The R. Colorata colored up almost overnight when I lowered the light by two inches, but when I moved it back up to 12 inches from the tank the color went away. I don't like having a metal halide that close, and overs get way more color with way less light so I feel like I should be able to get colorful plants at 12 inches. Its a new bulb.

Here is the (bad) whole tank shot. I'm pretty much in propagation mode right now to fill it in, and am waiting for the Fissidens and anubias to take hold and the HC to fill in more.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Well, if you have no livestock in the tank, why not increase the CO2 and see if it improves. Or raise the light a bit more to decrease CO2 demand. Curling tips could be a CO2 or Ca deficiency. CO2 seems more likely if you are using tap. I'd listen to the plants and ignore the drop checker. Could the plant be sitting in a dead zone in the tank? It's a small tank but it could be a flow problem. If increased CO2 doesn't show any improvement, then look to increasing Ca.

As for the color, it could be as simple as genetic variation. I have hygrophila polysperma stems right next to each other with one stem very pink, the other stem lime green. Even after trimming, each stem grows back with the same result.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

The co2 is high. If I put a fish in there, it would probably die. I'm just going by the drop checker but that is why I have the co2 cranked up: there is no livestock.

The plant is right in the path of the outflow of my Ecco 2236, and it runs 130 GPH of actual measured flow on a 17 gallon tank. There are no dead spots, and I keep the drop checker with 4 dkh solution on the sale side of the tank as the output, so it's on the "slow" side. You can see the thermometer swaying back and forth because of the the current.

Everything everyone has said so far, considering I'm dosing everything right and everything else seems in order, points to adding calcium. How much should I add and in what form? I am blessed with soft water from our tap/well so... I don't want to add enough to bother thte Tonina, and I would like to try Eriocaulon and crystal red shrimp so keeping the water soft is important.

I will re-test my gh tomorrow since it's been forever and the degree I posted earlier was from memory. I know this plant can get red, though, since I got it as small red stems that died back and regrew into these. EDIT (tested the gh, and it is 4 degrees.)

This might sound dumb but could the fix be as easy as adding a couple Tums to the tank once a week?


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*



JustLikeAPill said:


> Could I be overdosing something?


Nope. You'd have to dump a whole, whole lot in before it reached a toxic level for livestock, much less plants.

It looks like the other plants are healthy, but the pantanal is probably the plant that is the most CO2 sensitive, so it will show deficiency first. General health of the plant could affect the coloring, as well. No one really knows for certain on the coloring, so it's probably better to focus on the plant health first and see if the color comes with it.


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## deicide (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

I wouldn't be worried so much about color, those plants are deficient. If you don't know this already Pantanals is one of the most difficult sp. to grow healthy...definitely harder than Tonina's and Erios.

How much K are you dosing? Whats a smidgen? You should invest in a gram scale going forward.

IMO Ca and def not FE is the issue, start by adding .25Tsp Mg, .25Tsp K to eliminate those. How much trace are you dosing & how often.


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

A smidgen is 1/32 of a tsp. I dose 1/32 tsp daily.

Daily (Sunday - Friday), I add:
1/32 tsp trace mix (CSM+B). 
1/32 tsp Epsoms salt (magensium)
1/32 tsp K2SO4

I dose these daily instead of twice the amount every other day because I keep my ferts in a daily pill organizer and dump them in the tank daily. 
On Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday I add 1/16 tsp KH2PO4
On Sunday, I add 24 drops ADA's ECA as supplemental iron.

If you said Calcium and not Iron is the issue, why are you telling me to add more potassium and magnesium? I already add those daily.

I don't believe a gram scale is necessary for fertilizing plants. I have my mothers diamond scale that is accurate to three digits.... but I think using nip,smidgen,dash and pinch teaspoons is enough.

Last night I added 1/4 tsp of crushed oyster shell powder to my tank. It's made for reptiles and is 100% pure oyster shell powder. Is this enough? I just tested by gh and kh. Kh is 0-1 degrees (turns light yellow on the first drop) and gh is 5-6 degrees after 12 hours since I added 1/4 tsp of oyster shell powder. It was really fine, so almost all of it dissolved/stayed suspended in e cup of tank water I mixed it in before adding it.


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## deicide (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*



> If you said Calcium and not Iron is the issue, why are you telling me to add more potassium and magnesium? I already add those daily.


Your dosing routine K is way too low, so is the Mg if your tap has little or any @ 3GH you mentioned earlier. The dosage suggestion is to eliminate those possibilities and they need to be upped for overall success.



> I don't believe a gram scale is necessary for fertilizing plants. I have my mothers diamond scale that is accurate to three digits.... but I think using nip,smidgen,dash and pinch teaspoons is enough.


Its just a suggestion because of your size tank the Tsp method of dosing allows too large a variance. Good example is your CSM dosage is way too high IMO and needs to be reduced by ½. I suggest you add 1/64tsp or better ~.035-.043g CSM daily. In all honesty you'd be better off making a trace solution from the CSM and dosing ~ml amounts or drops.

Again I've grown these in the past very well and I've seen only *handful* of people here who've grown these as well as I did and somewhat consistently.


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## deicide (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Now you have me going into my archives to show experience with these...


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

So should I be adding 1/4 tsp of K and Mg once a week or tree times per week?

Are there negative consequences of me dosing csm+B in the amounts I am now? I am afraid to cut it down if I don't have to.

I went out and bought some Cacl. How much should I add and how often? I read that Cacl is the best source of calcium to add because it dissolves easily, doesn't increase ph as easily as other forms.

I appreciate your advice. Nice plants!


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*



JustLikeAPill said:


> I went out and bought some Cacl. How much should I add and how often? I read that Cacl is the best source of calcium to add because it dissolves easily, doesn't increase ph as easily as other forms


Where did you read that CaCl2 is the best form of Ca to add to your tank? According to this post on the Method of Controlled Inbalance, Christian Rubilar suggests otherwise because it has a negative effect on the leaves of Microsorum sp. He suggests the use of aragonite in the filter instead. See the following post:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...lled-imbalances-discussion-22.html#post525564


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Aragonite will increase GH.

I read it in several posts here, one was a pretty long thread that Diana walstead was participating in. Rex grigg said he preferred calcium chloride as well it dissolves easily.

If I used aragonite I would be increasing my kh as well, and the rate at which is dissolves is too variable, based on size... Biofilm I'd imagine, dose, etc.

I don't own microsorum and don't plan to.


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Just be aware that CaCl is exothermic with water. Burns are a hazard in larger concentrations (such as CaCl dust on wet hands) so be careful.

Pat


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Wish I knew that before I grinded it all up into a fine powder with a mortar and pestle and got it on my hands . Actually nothing bad happened. No burns or pain or anything.

I actually found it at Kroger in the food canning supplies. It was sold as something to make pickles with, and the only listed ingredient was calcium chloride. It was in small spheres so I uad to grind it into powder.

Does anyone know the proper dose? I added 1/4 tsp. Is this enough?


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Wet's dosing calculator could probably help. After you enter the particulars he gives you a bar graph displaying where "your" dose ranks against the various dosing regimens.

Pat


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Great tool! I have a question about using it. When it asks or the volume of water, should I put 5 gallons or 16? I ask because I will be adding it once per week to the fresh water on water change day (Sunday), but my tank holds 16 gallons.

Which value should I use?


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

Both if you want an immediate change to the final concentrations. First dose the 16 gal then dose the change water based on the change amount. With no fish you've got a lot of wiggle room. But you might be better off working up to it slowly, watching the plants, and in that case just the 5 gal weekly dosing would do. Eventually the concentration would reach the same levels. Your call.

Pat


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

I would add:

1Tsp Cacl2
.25~.5Tsp Mg 
.25Tsp K

Back off the trace as suggested. If using a DC to verify Co2 mount it low as you can get it and farthest from the Co2 input as possible.


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## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

I have some 'pantanal' in my 72 gal discus tank with 54watts x 2 of T5HO lighting, pressurized CO2 and full bore EI dosing using TMG for my micros and also adding iron and Seachem Trace on micro fert days. Also add 1 T. of Barr's GH Booster on WC days (50% once-twice a week) plus 1/2 T. Calcium Chloride (helps repair fins of my discus). Substrate is turface/flourite mix.

Have had it going for about 3 months now when a LFS gave me a few feeble stems gratis to try and see if I could do any better with it. Happy to say it's doing great. Attached below is what I'm getting as of 3 weeks or so ago. Strange thing is Tonina fluviatilis grows great in this same tank right next to it but Tonina belem does not (but does grow great in my 60P tank which has AS).

Maybe you do need to dose Nitrates and Phosphates. Maybe Trace is helping me? Not sure....


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## pat w (Nov 2, 2009)

*Hikjack Alert*

Hijacked topic for a quick question.

Rich,

I'm using 100% Turface and find it to be ridiculously light and difficult to get it to hold new plantings securely. Does the Fluorite help in this regard?

Pat


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

After adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride and a quarter teaspoon of Elaine salt, my GH s a whopping 11!

Is it me or is this high?


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Why can't I get L. "Pantanal" to redden, and why is it PALE?! Please take a look.*

I've grown those in GH3~12 back in the days with no issues, so no its not high in that regard. If you did not use heaping Tsp then more likely that number is due to the shells or whatever you used before. After your next WC, shell removal and dosing as suggested it should be GH6~8 mark.


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