# New 30 gallon Emergency tank (long sorry)



## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I posted a little while back about my angels showing breeding tendancies. I really wanted to buy a new big tank. But als I really don'yt have the money for that at this point in time. I tried searching for a used tank in the personals. But I couldn't find a suitable tank for a reasonable price. But the angels were getting increasingly aggressive towards my black angel. So I knew time was running out (allthough i thought I had more time) They were just chasing at forst no real aggression. I settled for a 30 gallon high. (the pet store owner graciously took a 29 gallon starter kit and swapped the tanks for the same price, yay "Pet Boutique" ! I wanted something bigger but I just can't afford anything better at this time (I can't really afford this either )

So I bought it and then built a stand for it myself for 20 bucks for all materials. I set it up last night. I really wanted to do a fishless cycle. But there is just no time. Because I got home today and "Sly" my black angel, is shredded  . I mean just torn up, his fins are mangled and he's missing scales.

I origionally took a couple of danios from my 29 gallon (regular) to cycle the new tank (30tall). I dont want to put too much stress on the other fish. I of course took water and sponges from my 55 and 29 to speed things up. But I just wanted to take it as slow as I could (thinking I had more time) So now I put my neons and phantoms along with the danios' in the 30 gallon high. Rescued sly from my 55 and put him into the 29. The 29 has a couple cories.
Sly is now in the corner of my 29 just sitting in one spot  I put some melafix in the water to hopefully help him heal.

I realize I didn't do things right because I wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. But am i doing right now? I don;t want to plunk my breeding pair of angels into an uncycled tank. Nor my battered and bashed outcast angel. I do care about my neons and danios too (dont get me wrong) I jsut beieve they are heardy enough to weather this out. I also cant have my black angel in with my other fish in the 29 they are too small I believe. Nor will the bio load support all those little fish AND a fully grown angel. I also cant wait weeks for a fishless cycle to end.

Can I do anything else? I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place here. I feel pretty crappy about the whole situation right now. Will plants from my other tanks help right now? I have a whole bunch of stem plants.

My tentative plan is to have my paired angels go into the 30 gallon tall. All by themselves. I know they may eat their brood but I'll slay that dragon if it gets to that point. Some angels I have read make pretty good parents or may eat the eggs then become good parents. So they breed and Ill have the fry in there untill they can survive on their own then transfer them to the 55 so they can grow out? or use the 10 gallon hospitol tank? buy another, cheap as possible, grow out, bare bottom, bare minimum tank?...that I cant afford............I'm screwed arent I?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, you're in the right forum if you want to get a tank "cycled" in record time.

Solution for the new tank: Go heavily planted right from the start. You'll need a good substrate, enough light (shoot for 2 wpg or so, more if you're serious about plants), some fertilizers, test kits, and some plants. You can add CO2 if you want.

I'm assuming that your aquariums aren't planted, since you didn't mention it. If you get a good quantity of fast-growing plants (usually stem plants) you can sort of side-step the traditional cycle. The whole issue is ammonia & nitrites. In traditional aquariums you need to wait until enough bacteria have built up to convert ammonia-->nitrites-->nitrates, which are less toxic and sit around until you do a water change.

In planted aquariums, the ammonia and nitrite don't have a chance since the plants greedily suck them up. They'll also consume nitrates. Most people with densely planted tanks end up adding large quantities of potassium nitrate (KNO3), phosphates, and trace elements to keep the plants happy. If the plants are happy then the fish are living in paradise. Besides, well-planted tanks are MUCH enjoyable. Ask anyone on the forum.

Until you get things going you can improvise with frequent large WC's - maybe 50% twice a week. This should keep ammonia and nitrite levels down even with no plants or bacterial colony.

A breeding pair of angels won't tolerate much in the way of other fish. A 30 high is a good choice for angels due to their shape. BTW, send me a PM if you want angel breeding advice. I've raised hundreds of them. There are many, ways to do it correctly and even more ways to do it poorly.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Just looked at your other posts & your tank photos. You're certainly not new to plants. I'd say you'll need a higher density of stem plants though, if you want to rely on them to get around cycling.

Concerning some of your earlier posts... I've never had problems moving spawning angels. They may take a few days to settle down, but a true pair will always be back at it in no time -- kind of like teenagers. A healthy pair in good condition can spawn 2 or 3 times a month. They'll probably eat the first half-dozen spawnings, but in a quiet tank without other occupants you might be lucky.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

What you're doing is just fine, T-bone.

Fishless cycling has really become a passe thing any more these days, and the only time I would ever recommend it is if you are setting up your very first tank and have no seeding material what so ever. Even then, it can be done without stressing the new fish if you have plenty of plants and don't add a big fish load all at once.
The fishless cycle was way over touted a few years ago, and there have been quite a few people who have had just as many problems with the fishless cycle as they would have without it. 

So IMO, I'd go ahead and put either your tattered Angel, or the pair in there now, and keep an eye on your water parameters.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks for the advise.  

Quaiac. I'm going to get a bunch more egeria densa from my LFS, as well as some cabomba. Mainly the cabomba for the fry. Also some anubius from my other tanks just for looks. 

My battered up angel is looking allot better today. Most of the holes in his fins have filled back in. Some of the smaller missing scales have come back a bit. His behavior is back to normal, swimming about, and wagging his tail when he sees me. 

(I'm referring to "Sly" as him. I really don't know yet, but I have always had a feeling that him and the striped one are males, and the gold one as a female. Based solely on their behavior. I could be wrong though. I will find out if I happen to catch them. But based on their behavior The striped one Zeke, and the Black one Sly, are the same sex)

My fish load is going to be the 2 sole angels, and I suppose the fry when they hatch. Providing they don't eat them all. I'm hoping they will be good parents.

I plan on moving the fry once they are large enough to survive on theirt own and raise them in the 55? Is this a good plan? The biggest fish in the 55 are 3 congo tetras 1 male and 2 females, and a dwarf gourami. I think once they are the size of a neon they will be fine. Before they get that big i will probably do daily water changes in the 30. Raise them to the size of nickels, and trade them in. There are 3 main stores in Vancouver I like to shop at, so hopefully I wont get overrun by unwanted fry.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The plants sound good. I'm looking forward to my next angel project. I'll be getting some 50% wild/pure-strain silver crosses to try out. There are a couple of good places on the net that have worked out the genetics and offer true strains.

It seems like a bad idea now, but at the time the only tanks I had for growing out the fry were a 10 gal & 40 gal tank. The 40 gal was a community tank with my breeder angels and a few tetras. I'd grow them up in the 10 until they were big enough to hang out with the big boys. 

Even with these close quarters I was able to sell hundreds of healthy fry with a nickel-size body. You really have to watch water changes when it gets crowded though. I suspect in a 55 you'll be quite happy. Little angels eat a lot and it only takes a few weeks to get them to a saleable size.

Please, please don't sell the ones that end up with deformities and ugly fins. Its kind of contrary to how we feel, but the generally poor quality of 'mutt' angels available in LFS's is a result of angels willingness to spawn and our unwillingness to be disciplined about it.

Most small angels with deformities will end up as big, ugly angels with the same problems. Just MHO, but I always took pride in a nice, healthy group of whatever strain I was selling.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I will definatly weed out the good healthy ones to the store. I'm not in it for the money at all or the store credit. I will take pride in raising good fry if I can. 

I will get a tank divider probably for the babies in my 55. Or buy a bare bones tank. Im hoping the angels won't eat the young. Though I will wait and see.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

They will almost certainly eat the young. At least for the first few months. I'm trying to increase my chances by obtaining 50% wild fish. Some people think the instinct to raise their young is 'bred out' of them by artificial raising. I'm not so sure the fish just don't get nervous in our less than natural setups. A large enough, well planted enough tank with water parameters close to what they're used to will probably help. Still, parent raised angels are very unusual in this country.

The other thing is that angels breed best at 80-84 degrees F. You'll need to watch the plant selection at those temps.


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