# ADA style fertilizing and differences with U.S.



## IUnknown

Slowly getting back into the hobby. I've always had trouble with EI dosing and other U.S. fertilizer regiments. When researching (and the threads I found about this were outdated) Amano tanks, the No3 is alway very low. So one thing I was considering was using a canister filter media that absorbs nitrate. I've been in the reef side of things for the last couple of years and was wondering if limiting the nitrate to the soil would be a better route? This is for a high light tank.

The other thing I learned in the reef side of things was R/O to reduce build up of elements from evaporation. I guess the reason this is not done with planted tanks is because we do large water changes that eliminate the build up? Is anyone using auto top off with RO?

I might also try air at night when the lights go out to inject more oxygen, a la Amano.


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## niko

Hey!

If you have time read the threads about filtration and laminar flow. If you really have time read the threads labeled "Dummy Question #XYZ:..."

There has been a lot of light shed on the way ADA does things. But it is not in a single thread. You cannot find it on the internet in a concise form either even if you go to the AquaJournal online magazine. 

The topics about filtration evolve into explaining how the ADA tanks work as a system - light, substrate, flow rate and flow pattern, CO2/O2, fertilizers, filter setup (flow, media, stages) - tons of information indeed. It's an interesting read. Every so often throughout the topics there is a summary made, usually by me. APC is the only place you will find that information in one place (although not really summarized).

I don't think the way ADA runs their tanks has ever been a secret or anything, just not available information. And what I see now is that there is isn't an overwhelming interest in it either although I don't understand why.

--Nikolay


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## IUnknown

Thanks Nikolay,
I'll start studying ;-)


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## lanceduffy

There is also The book of ADA. This was available at Aquarium Design Group's website. Not too informative about how things work, but they do tell you how to use the ada system in a way that encourages success. 
Between the dummy questions, the Online Aqua Journal and the Book of ADA you should be able to find enough information to successfully run a planted tank in the way of ADA.


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## niko

One thing about ADA is that it does NOT remove all the fertilizers from the tank although it may appear so. If you look at the data for all their tanks you will see zeros all over. Or very low values for things like Hardness or COD.

What's important to understand is that ADA operates in what I call "sub Zero" range. The nutrients are there but in minute amounts.

Knowing that helps for the understanding of someting more important. You can find extremely simplified diagrams in at least a few ADA books/catalogs that explain it all in a nutshell. They believe in a "closed doors" nutrient exchange between the plants, microorganisms, and gravel. Basicaly the "food" is transformed and exchanged only between the plants and the gravel/microorganisms. The water flows completely clean and clear. (In a way. There are other battles going on there and ADA adresses them too.) The ADA books do not say anyting about how such an "internal exchange" of nutrients harms the algae. But I think it is pretty clear.








(Image taken from: http://www.aquajournal.net/na/basics/basics_02.html)

In contrast: What we do in the US is an utter Dark Ages Mayhem Nutrition. D.A.M.N.! Based on lack of understanding, unwillingness to have common sense, and a lot of impatience. Both or our front runners - EI and PPS - add nutrients to the water. And keep them in excess! "Available"... to anyone - plants, algae, whatever. It works - it grows amazing plants and fast! And there is more to this story if you look at the long term establishment of the tank. But the main point is clear already - *you can feed or you can feed smart*.

This is how (on average) we in the US understand a planted tank:


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## jeff5614

niko said:


> One thing about ADA is that it does NOT remove all the fertilizers from the tank although it may appear so. If you look at the data for all their tanks you will see zeros all over. Or very low values for things like Hardness or COD.
> 
> What's important to understand is that ADA operates in what I call "sub Zero" range. The nutrients are there but in minute amounts.
> 
> Knowing that helps for the understanding of someting more important. You can find extremely simplified diagrams in at least a few ADA books/catalogs that explain it all in a nutshell. They believe in a "closed doors" nutrient exchange between the plants, microorganisms, and gravel. Basicaly the "food" is transformed and exchanged only between the plants and the gravel/microorganisms. The water flows completely clean and clear. (In a way. There are other battles going on there and ADA adresses them too.) The ADA books do not say anyting about how such an "internal exchange" of nutrients harms the algae. But I think it is pretty clear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Image taken from: http://www.aquajournal.net/na/basics/basics_02.html)
> 
> In contrast: What we do in the US is an utter Dark Ages Mayhem Nutrition. D.A.M.N.! Based on lack of understanding, unwillingness to have common sense, and a lot of impatience. Both or our front runners - EI and PPS - add nutrients to the water. And keep them in excess! "Available"... to anyone - plants, algae, whatever. It works - it grows amazing plants and fast! And there is more to this story if you look at the long term establishment of the tank. But the main point is clear already - *you can feed or you can feed smart*.
> 
> This is how (on average) we in the US understand a planted tank:


Every time I read these posts of Niko's it makes me want to do a big water change and lock my ferts away somewhere . Seriously.


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## niko

http://www.socalaquascapers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=116965&postcount=59


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## houseofcards

ADA vs USA. Why? Why do we compare a professional aquarium company to the United States of America. I don't know if ADA actually represents the majority of aquariums in Japanese homes. I doubt they do. I still believe there products are a niche both here and in Japan. 

Look at the vitals of some of the Aquariums in the AGA contest over the years and see how their could be so many different fert dosing styles that are successful. Some lean some heavy. I have setup so many aquascapes over the years for myself, other entities and I have never found any proof that heavy fert dosing (inorganic NPK) causes any issues and/or increase maintenance whether the tank is heavily planted or thinly planted. On the other hand heavy organic load has always been an issue regardless of setup. I'm a big fan of ADA products in both function and design and their system works, but there is always more than one way to have a successful low-maintenance tank. The ADAs, the Oliver Knotts, etc have one thing in common, commitment and discipline to achieve results.


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## lipadj46

houseofcards said:


> ADA vs USA. Why?


he obviously thinks he has it all figured out.


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## countcoco

As Niko has pointed out, the 'ADA Style' entails using a nutrient rich substrate as the primary means of fertilization. ADA recommends dosing only K, Iron and traces when using their substrates.

The basis of EI is that you supply excess nutrients (within certain ratios/concentrations) through the water column. It also stress the importance of high co2 levels relative to lighting.

I think the primary strength of the ADA approach is that it considers more environmental factors than the DIY fertilizer regimens. For instance, you most likely won't need RO water if you use Aquasoil since it buffers the pH and hardness. Aquasoil's buffering capacity is essential since many fertilizers have poor absorption rates in alkaline water and many of the more difficult plants are endemic to acidic waters with very little hardness.


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## countcoco

houseofcards said:


> Look at the vitals of some of the Aquariums in the AGA contest over the years and see how their could be so many different fert dosing styles that are successful. Some lean some heavy. I have setup so many aquascapes over the years for myself, other entities and I have never found any proof that heavy fert dosing (inorganic NPK) causes any issues and/or increase maintenance whether the tank is heavily planted or thinly planted.


I actually abandoned the EI method after seeing all the great AGA tanks that only listed Brighty K and Step 2 ferts, despite extremely high lighting and heavy plant densities.

I'm a member of various international forums (eg aquaticquotient and shrimpnow) and asian hobbyists almost always dose more or less according to the ADA guidelines (heavy k, Fe and traces). One huge difference between American and Asian hobbyists is that americans inevitably point to high light or limited co2 as the primary causal factors of algae, whereas asians tend to believe that algae arises from too much N, P or other ferts.


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## countcoco

Another thing I'd like to add is that you shouldn't strictly adhere to any one fertilizer 'method' or program. The best way to learn is to do lots of testing and frequently observe your plants. That way, you'll find out what works best for your tank instead of everyone else's.


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## IUnknown

countcoco said:


> I actually abandoned the EI method after seeing all the great AGA tanks that only listed Brighty K and Step 2 ferts, despite extremely high lighting and heavy plant densities.


This was my line of thinking, "the proof is in the pudding". The best tanks I see seem to use ADA ferts. So has anyone made knock-off's of their ferts? Whats the concentration of potassium in the brighty K? Is there a poor mans ADA fert method?


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## houseofcards

countcoco said:


> I actually abandoned the EI method after seeing all the great AGA tanks that only listed Brighty K and Step 2 ferts, despite extremely high lighting and heavy plant densities.
> 
> I'm a member of various international forums (eg aquaticquotient and shrimpnow) and asian hobbyists almost always dose more or less according to the ADA guidelines (heavy k, Fe and traces). One huge difference between American and Asian hobbyists is that americans inevitably point to high light or limited co2 as the primary causal factors of algae, whereas asians tend to believe that algae arises from too much N, P or other ferts.


There are simply too many professional setups, contest entries and winners that use different methods lean and heavy in terms of ferts to really give any credence that the ADA fert method is the only one that works effectively. As I've stated I'm a fan of ADA's methods and products. I use AS in all my tanks, but I also dose NPK to the high-end. I simply don't want to worry about something running short and I have never seen any issues short, long-term, lightly planted, heavy planted. How would you explain that. Look at my blog, all my tanks get an EI type dosing. There is always more than one way to success. The key is dedication and passion.


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## niko

I think how you run your own tank is a question of preference.

To me personally the tank needs to be completely stable and very much independent. But many people like to tinker with their tank, to feed it, and babysit it. No approach is "correct" because it depends on the view. On how the person is.

As far as contests are concerned - we are looking at snapshots. 2 days later a lot of these setups look different already. Is that a stupid thing? Not at all - because it all depends on how you enjoy this hobby.

What is more important for this hobby, more important than knowledge or a method, is for us to have a perspective how things are. So we can all chose wisely how to go about it according to our preferences/temper. Such perspective is completely missing from all planted tank forums. A newbie comes and is overwhelmed first, then makes a choice and then maybe follows it (but with a lot of mistakes). At some point a newbie may find her/himself defending the "Yugo" of an approach they follow only because they've never tried anything else and it seems to work just fine.









The bottom line is - there is not a single, central source that lays out the choices for everybody to see. That's what I see as important. Not to try to find a single "holy grail".









And I'm convinced that such information will lead to more successful planted tanks, streamlining of approaches toward what really makes sense, and overall - a progress for the hobby.

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

Agree about the contest, but we can say same thing about many ADA tanks. We don't know how long some are setup, are the photoshoot tanks. etc. Not saying they're not but we really can't account for most long-term. I know some of my tanks have been up 3 years and all I do is change the water, keep tank clean and never, ever compromise on organic out, inorganic in approach. I will keep organic content to a min as long as the NPK is going back in. BTW you brought up a good point about a friend of yours and the fish tank, when they simply changed the water everything was good. Unfortunately many won't keep it up religiously. I don't think you can teach that. You either have the commitment or you don't. Reason why some with same parmeters, one will succeed and the other fail. Many don't want to admit that they stopped doing WC, cleaning filter, feeding too much, adding too many fish, not using shrimp.


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## jeff5614

IUnknown said:


> This was my line of thinking, "the proof is in the pudding". The best tanks I see seem to use ADA ferts. So has anyone made knock-off's of their ferts? Whats the concentration of potassium in the brighty K? Is there a poor mans ADA fert method?


Tom Barr did an analysis of a couple of ADA's liquid ferts and the results are posted on his site but you have to be a subscriber to access the data.


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## JustLikeAPill

Brighty K is just KCO3. You can make a 10% solution and use one ml per 20 liters per day, like Amano sells. 

Literally, just add 50 grams of KCO3 to a 500 ml bottle with distilled water. That's it. I don't know exactly what % his solutions are, and I am not going to pay Barr to tell me, but 10% will do if you want to make your own. A little stronger wont hurt but isn't necessary.


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## countcoco

IUnknown said:


> This was my line of thinking, "the proof is in the pudding". The best tanks I see seem to use ADA ferts. So has anyone made knock-off's of their ferts? Whats the concentration of potassium in the brighty K? Is there a poor mans ADA fert method?


I'm told that Ferka's line of ferts are a direct knock-off of the ADA stuff. The problem is you won't wind up saving money after paying all the shipping.

I read somewhere that each pump of Brighty K adds approximately 3.75 ppm of potassium per 5 gallons, so it'd be easy to make a knock off with a pump bottle, K2SO4 and the fertilator. Everything else would be impossible to clone unless you had ingredients lists and exact ppm data. Ferts containing traces and Iron are extremely difficult to clone due to various chelating agents, etc. I find it's much better to just spend the money on a proprietary blend instead of goofing around with CSMB and Iron Chelate.

My poor man's ADA method primarily consists of K2S04, Tropica Plant Nutrition and Seachem Iron.


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## jeff5614

Other than the obvious, what's the difference in K2SO4 and KCO3? Is one preferrable to the other?


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## countcoco

Niko: _As far as contests are concerned - we are looking at snapshots. 2 days later a lot of these setups look different already. Is that a stupid thing? Not at all - because it all depends on how you enjoy this hobby._

Houseofcards:_ Agree about the contest, but we can say same thing about many ADA tanks. We don't know how long some are setup, are the photoshoot tanks. etc. Not saying they're not but we really can't account for most long-term_.

This argument over the long term sustainability of ADA style tanks vs. EI/DIY tanks is often employed by people in the US championing homegrown methods like EI. Essentially, people like houseofcards are saying that many of the great AGA tanks that dose according to ADA protocol aren't set up for more than a few months.

In my opinion, this argument is largely counterfactual. Many of the tanks in the AGA competition are set up by professional aquascapers/tank maintenance specialists. Therefore, a lot of these tanks are actually owned by private residences. I doubt the private owners paid thousands of dollars for an award winning tank that will get torn down or completely redone after a few months.

Here are two links that I feel shed light on an award winning tank's long term viability (2010 AGA 3rd place; large category/ 10th overall in IAPLC):

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2010.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=67

http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Gallery2010/Gallery2010_1_Infinite.htm

What are the ferts: Brighty K, TPN and Seachem Trace. Furthermore, the media consists of phosphate and nitrate removers

Neither N nor P is dosed and on the bubbles site they mention that nitrate and phosphate removers are in the filter. This fert method seems incredibly successful despite running six 54 watt T5s.


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## jeff5614

Do you think the nitrate and phosphate removers target only organic forms of those compounds as does purigen while not removing any inorganic NO3 or PO4?


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## countcoco

jeff5614 said:


> Do you think the nitrate and phosphate removers target only organic forms of those compounds as does purigen while not removing any inorganic NO3 or PO4?


I honestly have no clue since they include the names of the specific products.

There probably wouldn't be much, if any, inorganic NO3 or P04 given that the tank isn't dosed with either compound.


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## JustLikeAPill

Jeff, KCO3 buffers the water a little bit and increases Kh. For me, my Kh is almost zero after 24 hours with aquasoil. It is very low from the tap and using my own version of Brighty K helps keep it from reaching zero. You could use potassium sulfate instead if you didn't want to use KCO3 for some reason (but it wouldn't really be a duplicate of Brighty K.)

The instructions on Brighty K say it helps neutralize chlorine, and that may be true to some extent (don't know, don't see why he would lie...) but I would not use it for that purpose if I were you. Stick to a dedicated product for that. The instructions also say overdosing can kill shrimp, I guess because it affects KH, so don't do that either.


It wouldn't surprise me if there was a good reason he chose KCO3 and it had nothing to do with my above reasoning for liking it, but we don't know... Maybe it works better than K2SO4 when used with his substrate and fertilizer system. With something like... fluorite or eco-complete it may not provide any additional benefit. Everything ADA is all part of one system and should ideally be used together without other products. It is not intended to be a system where you can mix and match and substituting your source of K could be a bigger deal than we think, all other variables being equal. I am not saying you can't mix and match, but I am saying that it is all intended to work in harmony together as one system. Their products aren't one-size fits-all. They are made for each other. 

Or maybe it just buffers the water a little, makes economical sense for him to sell it, and I am overanalyzing.


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## niko

Seems to me that polishing the water with Nitrate and Phosphate removing resins does not go against the main idea of the ADA system - to keep the nutrients "hidden" from anybody but the plants and the microorganisms that support their growth. Algae is excluded, unless it learns to live in the substrate.

Still - I always thought that at least some nutrients must come from the water. I assumed that 0 test values are not a true zero. Using resins will really hit many plants. At least I thought so.

There's something else maybe - ADA is big on paying attention to the stage in which the tank is in. Just like their filter media changes over time, maybe these resins are a temprorary thing. (No, I'm wrong - I checked and they say they change the resins every 1-2 months. Beats me how all these red stem plants grow so lush. Root feeding only?)

In any case - look what we are discussing here? It's such a radical concept compared with the excess nutrients that seem to be the norm in the US. I wish I understood Japanese and could read their forums if such exist. I want to see how our "Algae" section compares to ours. If they have a special section for that.

--Nikolay


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## niko

And... since we are so clear about what we do and what the Japanese do I'd like to see if someone here can help this guy with advice that actually works for lost souls:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...16-cycling-180-litres-fishtank-need-some.html

Truth is all of us will all agree on just a few basic things as initial advice. Beyond that the guy is better off reading this monumental novel that at least gives some idea how things roll in this part of the world:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...o-proven-method-starting-running-planted.html

... which will scare him away from this hobby. Forever.

--Nikolay


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## JustLikeAPill

Niko, you have to admit I did try ; )


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## houseofcards

countcoco said:


> Houseofcards:_ Agree about the contest, but we can say same thing about many ADA tanks. We don't know how long some are setup, are the photoshoot tanks. etc. Not saying they're not but we really can't account for most long-term_.
> 
> This argument over the long term sustainability of ADA style tanks vs. EI/DIY tanks is often employed by people in the US championing homegrown methods like EI. Essentially, people like houseofcards are saying that many of the great AGA tanks that dose according to ADA protocol aren't set up for more than a few months.


Please don't state things that I never said. All I said was we can't account for some ADA tanks and how long they've been setup. Also the point I believe Niko was making was that the tank could be up for years but it doesn't necessarily look like the contest pic thru it's duration. And I'm not sure where you getting that AGA tanks under ADA protocol can't last long term. That's your words not mine. Why don't you show me where I said that? I've said all along that I believe in and use ADA products, but there are many dosing maintenance setups that work. I'm all for healthy debate, but don't draw your own conclusions and then label them as mine.


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## countcoco

@house of cards: sorry, I admittedly misread your post. I thought I saw AGA tanks instead of ADA tanks. 

My badddd.....


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## Ernie Mccracken

The efficacy of any fertilization is strategy is due to the basic underlying scientific principles. Can we agree on that much? Otherwise, this will remain a philosophical debate.

Not science:
- I saw photos of nice aquascapes that claim to use some combination of ADA products
- Fertilizers help plants grow, so I'd guess that adding more than a magical amount is detrimental.
- Japanese are secretive and don't believe in sharing science
- 'Mericans are dumm dumms
- It works because ADA sells it
- Asking why is a reason to question your intelligence
- Asians prefer ADA ferts and don't ask questions
- It works because you buy it as a system

Maybe science:
- Study x at institution y found z relationship between nutrient uptake and aquatic plants. I can see and/or repeat the findings in a practical way by...
- I set up an experiment, attempting to control for variables as much as possible. Over a given period of time, the following quantifiable results lead me to conclude...
- Since we know the chemical composition of the following products, we can measure how and which parameters change. The effects on plant health are...

I know the latter is much more difficult (time, money, and effort that none of us have the motivation to pursue) than the former, but it's been done before. Otherwise Dupla would still be selling us heating cables. Then again, maybe all we need is one of these!


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## niko

Could it be ... that the saltwater hobby is way ahead because they have some actual scientific or close-to scientific data?

And to bring this close to home - from these 3 which one is the most scientific:
- EI
- PPS
- El Natural

What do we got?

I apologize. One should not look at themselves in the mirror too early in the morning... Ernie is a horrible person - made me shove our hobby's disheveled head right up the mirror. And the mug is not very pretty. But it certainly can be - with some grooming. And viewing from the right angle.









--Nikolay


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## houseofcards

countcoco said:


> @house of cards: sorry, I admittedly misread your post. I thought I saw AGA tanks instead of ADA tanks.
> 
> My badddd.....


Honest mistake, no problem.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ernie Mccracken

niko said:


> Could it be ... that the saltwater hobby is way ahead because they have some actual scientific or close-to scientific data?


The reef hobby has exploded over the past decade due in large part to the collective efforts to unlock the science behind coral health, IMO. Much of it has been adapted from the academic world, but many examples of hobbyist contributions can be cited as well.

It used to be about cramming in as much live rock as possible (BERLIN METHOD IS SUPERIOR!!), VHO T8's w/o any concept of PAR, basic skimmers, miracle mud, deep sand beds, maybe 5x-10x turnover, and 37 different supplements that we now know are mostly useless. Dark ages. Reef guys have money, so most of it was expensive and frustrating guesswork based far more on product marketing that actual science.

A trend of specialization formed somewhat organically out of that frustration. You saw small groups of guys break off and attempt to tackle the impact of each aspect on coral health at an extremely detailed level. Lighting (I think Sanjay Joshi has PAR data for 900 different metal halide combinations now), skimming, flow dynamics, dosing, organic load, coral feeding/propagation, and so on.

For the sake of this discussion, we need a way to test the hypothesis. If the ADA methods of providing essential nutrients result in increased plant growth and less nuisance algae/bacteria, how can we test it?

Why not start with a very basic experiment? Set up 2 tanks as close to identical as possible - equipment, substrate, water, plants, same everything as best you can. Use by the book EI or PPS in one and ADA ferts in the other. Document the results as best you can. It's hard to believe that it hasn't been done already (to my knowledge). I think understanding what's happening is a good first step to learning why it happens.


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