# PMDD Iron—0.1ppm enough?



## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

I’m wondering if 0.1ppm in the Poor Man Dupla drops system is enough.
I have 2 kind of fast growing plants (Elodea and Rotala rotundifolia(indica).

I think they compete for macronutrient. When my rotala start to grow well, the elodea slow down and devellop brown tips...

What do you think??


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Glouglou said:


> I'm wondering if 0.1ppm in the Poor Man Dupla drops system is enough.
> I have 2 kind of fast growing plants (Elodea and Rotala rotundifolia(indica).
> 
> I think they compete for macronutrient. When my rotala start to grow well, the elodea slow down and devellop brown tips...
> ...


I think you may have already stated your problem. If your plants are competing for nutrients then try adding some more. Without any more information about your tank than what you have given, I would blindly suggest an increase in KNO3 and PO4 before you start looking at the iron.

If either plant was having new growth that was lighter green or white I may think lack of iron is the issue.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Welcome to APC 

_What other ferts are you adding_?... Brown tips is usually not associated with a iron deficiency.


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*My PMDD*

Actual PH	- 6.9/ 7
Tempº	- 76º / 78º
Filtration - 3 to 5x volume / hour
CO2	- around 15 ppm
KH - 30 / 40 ppm
GH - 100 / 120 ppm
Mg - 5 à 10 ->45 ppm
NO3 - 6 ppm
P04 - 0.2 / 0.5 ppm
*Fe - 0.1 ppm (PMDD)*

Fe is the target I keep but the uptake of the plants seem really fast, often I have to double my daily KNO3 and sometime triple my Phosphate daily dose to keep all my targets.

I think that due to the fast uptake and not enough Fe and micro are present in the water column to satisfied all plants

I'm dosing all separate->

KNO3 for nitrate
KH2PO4 for phosphate
K2SO4 for Potassium
Fe and micro all in one (PMDD style)
MGSO4 if needed

The carence have to be a problem with
Immobile element like->bore, calcium, copper, Iron, manganese or sulphur.

Can be phosphate to?

I guess it's a combination of these, because I can see some tell tell sign of that.

I'm changing between 20 to 40 % of the water with a mix of RO and my home water (well) the mix is base on a testing of my parameter prior to...

My thinking is to up the Fe and micro and keep up with the plant demand following the target for the rest of nutrients...

Fun! Fun! Fun!

What you think about the brown tips of elodea and slower growth?

Some of my crypt leave was showing something like copper deficiency, bronze Dark green leaves with cupped leaves (toward the inside of the leaves)

Sherlock at work!


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I think you may be low on several nutrients, including carbon. Try aiming for the following:

CO2 - at least 30mg/l during the lighting period. At a pH of 6.9/7 and a KH of 30-40ppm (1.6-2.2 degrees), you do not have 15mg/l of CO2 but more like 9mg/l. So you need to raise this significantly. Lower your pH to 6.3 by adding more CO2.

NO3 - I like to keep it between 20 and 30mg/l. That way I know it never runs out.

PO4 - Between 1 and 2mg/l. If necessary, this can be raised to between 2 and 3.

Fe - I don't trust Fe test kits (and many others for that matter). What product are you using for Fe and traces?


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Response to Laith and thanks!*



Laith said:


> I think you may be low on several nutrients, including carbon. Try aiming for the following:
> 
> CO2 - at least 30mg/l during the lighting period. At a pH of 6.9/7 and a KH of 30-40ppm (1.6-2.2 degrees), you do not have 15mg/l of CO2 but more like 9mg/l. So you need to raise this significantly. Lower your pH to 6.3 by adding more CO2.
> 
> ...


For the tests kit, I want to change My Fe and PO4 Hagen test to Seachem

Yes I know, my CO2 is more in the range you describe. I'm using peat and sometimes Ph minus (sulphuric acid) to bring my PH down and lately my Sera liquid visual indicator was out of wack. Even with Krause method to determined CO2 level show me that my PH shoud be more like 6.5 and I'm actually close to 7.
I use the ladder from Hagen Yeast kit and I think it is not sufficient. I was thinking to get the AquaMedic 500 reactor or go for a DIY.

You wright for the other nutrient, I'm probably on the low side, I'm impress at what rate those nutrient are used by the plant and I'm little scare to overdose.

For the micro I'm using (from a local hydroponic store the exact same thing that the PMDD->

Chelatés Oligo éléments
(7% Fe, 1.3% B, 2% Mn, 0.06 Mo, 0.4% Zn, 0.1% Cu, EDTA,DTPA?)

1 teasp	7g	K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) (50% K, 46% SO4)

3 3/4 teasp	16.5g	MgSO4 (sels d'epsom hydratés?) (16% Mg, 32% SO4, H2O?)

Mix with 150 ml H2O (eau distillée)


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Forget the peat and sulphuric acid. They do not add CO2 to the tank. Your first priority is to get your CO2 levels up to 30mg/l.

Adding more and more macros and micros with only 7-9mg/l of CO2 is not useful. You first need to fix your CO2. With that much light and low CO2 your plants are starving for carbon.

Remember that there is an order to nutrient requirements for plants:

Light - carbon (ie CO2) - macros - micros

You need to ensure these are available starting from the left. Your lighting is good. Next is CO2: it is not good. So fix that before playing with the macros and micros.

Once the CO2 is fixed, don't be scared to dose more macros and micros. As long as there is no deficiency in any one of them, it will not cause algae. And if you do a 50% water change once a week, you will *never* accumulate more than 2x your mg/l dosing. And that's without taking into account plant uptake...


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Thanks Laith!*

You reenforce what I was thinking
I probably will make a DIY CO2 reactor.
I think I will use the, counter current CO2 bubble style, with a good water pump to drive the CO2 around and at the same time diminish the Prandtl Boundary.



Laith said:


> Forget the peat and sulphuric acid. They do not add CO2 to the tank. Your first priority is to get your CO2 levels up to 30mg/l.


What I was saying is the CO2 chart and my Sera visual indicator was out of wack because peat and other buffer. It's for that, I used The Krause method to determine that I need a ph of 6.5 to obtain the good amount of CO2.
My actual PH is around 6.9 and my Haggen Ladder cannot dissolve more CO2

Match Plan

1- A good CO2 reactor


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