# Holes in leaves & yellowing



## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

My tank is a two months old NPT. It has 2,5cm of soil and 3-4cm of quartz gravel (3-4mm diameter for each gravel). Heater in the tank is set to 25°. Temperature at the opposite side of the tank is 23°. (heater is not adjustable). I have a small water jet to move water around a bit. 

To describe what's going on in the tank I will try to tell you everything Strange I've been noticing recently. 

Recently I have noticed a type of dust appearing in the water of my tank. It makes me think of sawdust only much much smaller and thinner. It looks like tiny white sticks when you look at it very close. It's weird because it won't settle. It stays in the water. (I Don't know if they're any link with my holes in the leaves problem)

More recently I've noticed my eleocharis parvula is yellowing and almost every plant is showing holes on the leaves (old and new leaves). From what I've read online on the subject I've found it might be linked to a potassium deficiency. 

When I started my tank I used a cheap and quite hard water. Water change after water change (20% each Week approximatley) I softened the water until it reached a gh of ~6 and a kh of ~6 with a PH of ~7. For this purpose I used a very soft mineral water from the grocery store which shows almost no potassium at all. And then I stopped doing water changes for 3 weeks.

This week-end I've done a water change to try and solve this situation. I've found a water with a GH of ~8 a kh of ~10 and 12mg/L of potassium. I've done a 20% water change with this water.

- Is it possible that my soil is not giving enough feeding materials for the plants after only two months? As you can see in the picture the first two months of growth have been quite impressive in my opinion.

- How high can KH go in the tank? (The new water I've found has a quite high KH)


Thank you for your help. I'm sorry if pieces of information are missing. Please ask me and I'll give them right away. I'm sorry if some elements aren't clear. I'm not a native English speaker.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

I had forgotten the pictures. They're attached to this message.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You’ll have to add extra nutrients if you’re doing frequent water changes, or do less water changes.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Your English is excellent!

My first guess would be potassium deficiency. An easy way to add potassium is to buy salt substitute at the grocery store, sold for people on low sodium diets. The primary ingredient should be potassium chloride (KCl). I use about 5 ml of KCl in 150 l tank, but this is a guess that has worked for me.

In my experience, _Eleocharis_ does well in Walstad tanks at first while natural CO2 levels are high from soil, but then declines as the soil stabilizes and produces less CO2.

The white dust could be tiny fragments of decaying leaves, but that is also a guess.

I look forward to what Diana says about this.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Guibang said:


> When I started my tank I used a cheap and quite hard water. Water change after water change (20% each Week approximately) I softened the water until it reached a gh of ~6 and a kh of ~6 with a PH of ~7. For this purpose I used a very soft mineral water from the grocery store which shows almost no potassium at all. And then I stopped doing water changes for 3 weeks.
> 
> This week-end I've done a water change to try and solve this situation. I've found a water with a GH of ~8 a kh of ~10 and 12mg/L of potassium. I've done a 20% water change with this water.
> 
> ...


Holes in the leaves could be from a nutrient deficiency and/or snail munching. I don't know about sticks in the water. Fungus? You may have to send a picture.

The new water sounds fine. 12 mg/l of potassium is a very high level. If K deficiency is creating holes in the leaves, this new water should solve it!

What concerns me more is that you seem to regard hard water as somehow undesirable. "Cheap hardwater." Hardwater contains nutrients (calcium, magnesium, sulfate, bicarbonate, potassium) that plants need. It is good for plants!

And no matter how good the soil is, you need nutrients in the water. Soil cannot do it all! Constant water changes, _especially_ with soft water, deprives plants of vital nutrients. You are also removing DOC (dissolved organic carbon) from the water that can--with bacterial decomposition-- provide your plants with CO2.

A high KH is not bad; it means water contains bicarbonates (a carbon source for the many plant species that can use bicarbonates). Many stem plants cannot use bicarbonates, so they depend on DOC decomposition by bacteria for their CO2. As the soil gradually runs out of DOC, ideally more of it starts to come from fishfood, plant decomposition, fish droppings, etc. You don't want to block this new input of nutrients with excessive tank cleaning.

Now that your tank is 2 months old, it has gotten through the hard part ('soil chaos') in great shape. I would advise that you relax, downplay the water changes and stop adding soft water. Let the plants do their job (i.e., purify the water). This means less work for you, and at the same time, better plant growth. It is what we call a "two-fer."


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

Michael said:


> Your English is excellent!
> 
> My first guess would be potassium deficiency. An easy way to add potassium is to buy salt substitute at the grocery store, sold for people on low sodium diets. The primary ingredient should be potassium chloride (KCl). I use about 5 ml of KCl in 150 l tank, but this is a guess that has worked for me.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice Michael. I will buy a salt substitute just in case. I will try to take a picture of the tiny fragments tonight but I'm not sure I'll be able to show them on picture.



dwalstad said:


> Holes in the leaves could be from a nutrient deficiency and/or snail munching. I don't know about sticks in the water. Fungus? You may have to send a picture.
> 
> The new water sounds fine. 12 mg/l of potassium is a very high level. If K deficiency is creating holes in the leaves, this new water should solve it!
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comment Mrs Walstad.
- You say hard water is not to be seen as a threat and I should stop using too soft water. Does this mean you think I should use the water I described (GH8 KH10 PH7,5 K12) as top off water or only for water changes? Using it as top off water wouldn't make it too hard on the long run?

- In your opinion how hard can the water get before it becomes bad for the balance of the tank and for the animals living in it? Are there max Kh and max GH?

- Thank you for your advice I won't try to mess with the tank too much now that I've reached the first two months.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

Michael said:


> Your English is excellent!
> 
> In my experience, _Eleocharis_ does well in Walstad tanks at first while natural CO2 levels are high from soil, but then declines as the soil stabilizes and produces less CO2.
> 
> .


Yeah&#8230; I have read that before somewhere. We'll see what happens to it. Is there a carpet plant that does well on the long run? Maybe when my eleocharis parvula passes away I can try to plant another type of carpet plant&#8230;


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Michael said:


> In my experience, _Eleocharis_ does well in Walstad tanks at first while natural CO2 levels are high from soil, but then declines as the soil stabilizes and produces less CO2.


There was a thread on here a bit ago about using rice to increase CO2 after the soil begins to produce less. Would that be sufficient to grow it, do you think, or is there not enough info on it?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The most successful carpet plant in my aquaria has been _Sagittaria subulata_, keeping dense stands for many years.

Tanta MD reported good results using rice in the filter to increase CO2. I haven't tried it yet.

A GH of 8 is not very hard at all. My tanks typically have a total dissolved solids of 200 to 250 ppm, which is about GH 10 to 15. The two methods of measuring hardness are not quite equivalent, but close. My pH is about 7.5, so I agree with Diana: your water is OK.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Guibang said:


> - You say hard water is not to be seen as a threat and I should stop using too soft water. Does this mean you think I should use the water I described (GH8 KH10 PH7,5 K12) as top off water or only for water changes? Using it as top off water wouldn't make it too hard on the long run?
> 
> - In your opinion how hard can the water get before it becomes bad for the balance of the tank and for the animals living in it? Are there max Kh and max GH?
> 
> - Thank you for your advice I won't try to mess with the tank too much now that I've reached the first two months.


Water of GH 8 sounds good for water changes, tank setup, top-off, whatever. Your GH can probably go much higher. Remember that plants and fish are pulling calcium and magnesium _out of the water,_ so it is not like the GH buildup is just a one-way street. Calcium and magnesium are _major_ nutrients for plants and animals.

Looking back at my notes: In 2004 during drought, I let my 45 and 50 gal tanks go for 6 months without any water changes. GH in tanks climbed to 16 and 17. Tapwater had a GH = 13. Plant growth excellent. I had Cryptocoryne and Red Flame sword, with swordplant having babies.

In 2009, the 50 gal had a salinity of 450 uS/cm2; my Red Flame swordplant was having babies. _Rotala macrandra_ was doing well, along with other plants.

I don't know what the limit is. The idea that softwater is good for plants is pervasive in the hobby, but IMHO, it is wrong.


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## zolteeC (Dec 26, 2017)

dwalstad said:


> Water of GH 8 sounds good for water changes, tank setup, top-off, whatever. Your GH can probably go much higher. Remember that plants and fish are pulling calcium and magnesium _out of the water,_ so it is not like the GH buildup is just a one-way street. Calcium and magnesium are _major_ nutrients for plants and animals.
> 
> Looking back at my notes: In 2004 during drought, I let my 45 and 50 gal tanks go for 6 months without any water changes. GH in tanks climbed to 16 and 17. Tapwater had a GH = 13. Plant growth excellent. I had Cryptocoryne and Red Flame sword, with swordplant having babies.
> 
> ...


I have *very* hard water from the tap. It can definitely grow plants. GH is around 25. KH is also high. I have two issues with this water. It creates Ca deposits on the top of tank's glass (also lots of cleaning needed in the bathroom shower). Other issue is with crypts. If I use a lot of light, I can see some unsightly white spots on the crypts leaves. I am guessing its Ca deposit from the bicarbonates. With my nano tanks, I try to mix my tap water with rain water, so GH goes down to 10 or so to avoid these issues. Unfortunately I cannot do this with larger tanks.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

Michael said:


> The most successful carpet plant in my aquaria has been _Sagittaria subulata_, keeping dense stands for many years.
> 
> Tanta MD reported good results using rice in the filter to increase CO2. I haven't tried it yet.
> 
> A GH of 8 is not very hard at all. My tanks typically have a total dissolved solids of 200 to 250 ppm, which is about GH 10 to 15. The two methods of measuring hardness are not quite equivalent, but close. My pH is about 7.5, so I agree with Diana: your water is OK.


Thank you for the tip Michael. I guess I'll try to introduce sagittaria subulata when my eleocharis parvula starts declining. But Don't you think I'll be able to keep it at least a year?

As for rice in the filter, I am not using any filter. I just have a small water jet. Should I be using one?



dwalstad said:


> Water of GH 8 sounds good for water changes, tank setup, top-off, whatever. Your GH can probably go much higher. Remember that plants and fish are pulling calcium and magnesium _out of the water,_ so it is not like the GH buildup is just a one-way street. Calcium and magnesium are _major_ nutrients for plants and animals.
> 
> Looking back at my notes: In 2004 during drought, I let my 45 and 50 gal tanks go for 6 months without any water changes. GH in tanks climbed to 16 and 17. Tapwater had a GH = 13. Plant growth excellent. I had Cryptocoryne and Red Flame sword, with swordplant having babies.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. Following your advice I will start using the water I described previously then. You mention high GH and say it is not harmful to have such a parameter, on the contrary. But since my water as a GH of 8 which is not to worry about I was more worried about KH. Have you had high KH too? How high do you think KH can go without worrying?

I had another question related to CO2 since Michael talked about rising its level thanks to rice in the filter. In your book you wrote the soil is supposed to provide CO2 via the decomposition of organic materials. And you say that fish food and dead leaves are supposed to replenish the soil and allow for more CO2 to be created. (please correct me if I've got this wrong). But since dead leaves could play such an important role don't you think it could be a good idea to introduce some volontarily ? Ever since I've introduced livestock I've been putting a cattapa leaf. Because&#8230; just because. I read online it was good for shrimps and that they would eat it (I've never seen a single shrimp eating it though&#8230. But I thought it could be good for replenishing soil? (I also thought decomposing cattapa leaf might be the source of this Strange dust hanging in my water by the way).

I've attached a picture trying to show holes in leaves. It is hard to capture on a picture. If you want more I can try again. Another picture is supposed to show the "dust" I've noticed in the water that won't settle down. I've also attached a picture showing the composition of the water I intend to use for now on in case you spotted something wrong.

Thank you all for your comments. You're a great help for a beginner. This forum is just great.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

zolteeC said:


> I have *very* hard water from the tap. It can definitely grow plants. GH is around 25. KH is also high. I have two issues with this water. It creates Ca deposits on the top of tank's glass (also lots of cleaning needed in the bathroom shower). Other issue is with crypts. If I use a lot of light, I can see some unsightly white spots on the crypts leaves. I am guessing its Ca deposit from the bicarbonates. With my nano tanks, I try to mix my tap water with rain water, so GH goes down to 10 or so to avoid these issues. Unfortunately I cannot do this with larger tanks.


I have had white spots on egeria densa too when before I lowered the intensity of my light. I guess it means plants are using bicarbonates as a source of carbon and leave minerals on the leaves.

How high is your KH?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Old plant leaves get holes in their leaves and die as part of their life cycle. Nothing special.

The chemical composition of the bottled product shown in your picture looks fine. You can add a little of this product to softwater to get a targeted GH. 

However, since your tapwater is hard, I would encourage you to just try using it alone. Natural hardwater generally contains the very same nutrients you are adding from a bottle. The exception is potassium, which you may have to add separately as Michael suggested. 

The white spots show the use of bicarbonates by plants as an alternate and less preferred carbon source. When you lowered the light intensity, there was less plant/algae photosynthesis in the tank and probably more CO2 available for the plants. 

With high light intensity, there was more photosynthesis and more competition for CO2. Plants that could use bicarbonates did so. The process results in "biogenic decalcification" and the deposition of calcium carbonates (white spots) on the leaf surface (my book, p. 98 ).


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Use of a filter is optional on Walstad tanks. I have filters on all my tanks for circulation, but they only have mechanical filtration media (filter foam a.k.a sponges) in them. No carbon, charcoal, or biomedia. You might consider using a filter just to remove the white dust.

Your tank looks really good. As Diana says, old leaves die and decay as part of natural plant growth. This is especially true of fast growing stem plants. Stem plants often grow so muct that the upper parts of the plant begin to shade the lower parts, causing lower leaves to die. We deal with this by trimming the tops of the plants and replanting the vigorous top growth in the substrate if necessary.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

A feedback on this topic:

I have stopped doing weekly 20% water change and started using a harder water. Plus, given the state of the plants I've decided to dose a bit of potassium as Michael suggested. For now it looks like plants are growing again. Some have been seriously damaged by the deficiency but I can see new encouraging growth. My yellow carpet of eleocharis parvula is still yellowish but getting greener. I think it can clearly be established my tank did suffer potassium deficiency given the results I am having.

Do you think I should keep on dosing potassium or will toping off the tank with my new water that contains 12mg/l of potassium be enough?

Thanks for your advices!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

As long as things are improving you probably do not need to continue dosing potassium. Resume if the symptoms come back. Using my naturally hard water, I only dose when I see problems, normally a few times a year.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

So I stopped dosing potassium as Michael suggested but the deficiency came back. So I started dosing again. Plants are getting better (I think) but given these two deficiency crises plants tend to be stalling. And algae is spreading. 

What can I do to defeat this algae crisis? 

Maybe I should tell you a bit about my lighting situation:

- Lighting is and has Always been 5 hours on then 4 hours siesta then 5 hours on

- When I first got my tank I used my LED light with both canals (one being mostly white/yellow, the second being blue and red) on 100%

- After the first two weeks I came to the conclusion that lighting was too strong because my egeria densa was showing numerous white spots since it was using bicarbonate as a source of carbon (correct me if I'm wrong) Plus, plants were bubbling excessively. It really was a very very strong light.

- So I turned off the red and blue canal and kept on with only the white/yellow canal on 100%. This lighting remained pretty strong. But everything went quite well. Bubbling calmed down. White spots disappeared. There was algae in the eleocharis parvula but it seemed to remain Under control.

- Then came the crisis of the two deficiencies episodes. Because algae was and still is growing I assumed I needed to reduce the power of the lamp.
I got a dimmer for my lamp. I though 100% on the white/yellow canal was still very strong. I brought it down to 70%. And I turned back on the red/blue canal at 5%.

Algae is still spreading...

Do you think I'm doing something wrong with my lamp? Or is it just that my plants have been weakened by deficiencies?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Often it takes awhile to balance lighting, water, and nutrients.

I have 10 tanks/bowls with similar setups. Some have algae, some don't. These are natural ecosystems and each one is unique. As long as plant growth is decent, I don't get too concerned. 

A recent picture of your tank would help to see what kind of algae you've got and how the plants are doing.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

I'll try to take pictures. 

I've tested my water for K and I have a high level of ~20mg/L now. I will stop dosing and test on a regular basis. 
In my opinion I'm not having such a decent growth now. For the first two months I had impressive growth. At one point I had to prune plants every week-end. Now I haven't done a trimming in a while. I've got two plants that were growing like crazy which I don't know if they're going to make it anymore. 

Ever since I've added potassium things seem to be better. My eleocharis parvula had became all yellow. It's almost become completely green again, for example. But the growth is still very shy in my opinion. Even surface plants seem to be stalling. I used to definetely have to take significant amounts of duckweed off of the tank each week. I haven't done this in weeks… And my water lettuce type plants are showing holes in leaves as it happened (or is still happening. I don't know for sure since growth is scarce) for my underwater plants

I've got high GH and KH now. Ph is like 7,2 and temp is 23°...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

If you are getting poor plant growth, it's probably because the fish food input is not keeping up with the nutrient uptake by plants. Soil, which is rich in nutrients, contributes less to the total pool of nutrients as the tank ages. (Please read my book's chapter on 'Sources of Plant Nutrients.') 

Fishfood is a great source of nutrients, because it provides ALL plant nutrients (including CO2). Moreover, it provides them gradually and effortlessly. Every time you feed your fish, you are also feeding your plants. Snails will hasten the processing of fishfood, debris etc into plant nutrients.

If floating plants are tapering off, it may be iron deficiency. This is especially true for floating plants, because iron can easily become deficient in the water. (Rooted plants can get their iron from soil.)

You can dose nutrients the natural way by increasing your fish food input (heavier feeding, more fish, etc). Combine this with minimal tank cleaning and water changes. 

The alternative is to start adding chemical fertilizers. When my floating plants start doing poorly, I sometimes add a powdered mix of micronutrient fertilizers. It contains chelated iron and other micronutrients (manganese, copper, zinc, molybdenum, etc). Use the response of your duckweed to gauge the dosage. Start with small doses, see how duckweed responds, and increase dosage if you don't get a response within a week. I found that added micronutrients also helped my Water Wisteria.

I only dose when I have a problem. Now, my floating plants are growing like crazy without any chemical fertilizers.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

In your book you say you've collected data about feeding. You've estimated that you add 40g of fish food a month to your 50gallon tank which is 190L. My tank being a 60L should I be adding 12-13 grams of fish food a month approximately? 

What I mean is that do you recommend the amount of fish food to be proportionate to what you wrote about your 190L tank or does it work differently?

Sorry if my question is dumb  .Thanks for your insight anyway.

My fish are small and don't eat that much (they're very healthy. No problem on that matter. Just small fish (8 celestial pearl danio)). But I know I can count on snails no problem. I've got a ton of them and ever since you told me to feed more I've done experiments where I fed a lot. Snails can handle it easy  Shrimps, although tank born generations are still juvenile, are starting to get seriously numerous too, so I think I can count on them too.

But I'd be glad if you could give me a guideline to follow, meaning a target weight of food per month for example. This would be reassuring for me.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Aha! It is as I suspected. The nutrient deficiencies you reported previously are due to not enough fish food and excessive tank cleaning/water changes. This attitude is all too common. People with lightly stocked planted tanks often hold back on fish food, and then they are forced to add chemical fertilizers when the plants don't do well.

Here, I'm not going to change what I wrote in the book or make recommendations about grams of fish food. There's lots of leeway and *you* are the best judge of how much to add. Every situation is different due to variations in lighting, water chemistry, plant species, etc. (Good that you've got snails and shrimp to help with the recycling of fish food to plant nutrients.)

My advice still holds: Feed your fish well and toss in a little extra for the plants. The main thing is to understand that fish food is an excellent source of all plant nutrients.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

I have increased my fish food input (even too much since I had a micro worm bloom for some time before I decreased the fish food input a bit).

I also dosed a fertilizer for some time. In the beginning plants started to grow again. But after some time its effects stopped. (it also harmed my snails at the same time)

I'm back with yellowing and holes. I've lost 2 plant species (a third one looks on its way too) ever since I started this topic.

In despair I recently tried to put back my LED lamp to max power. It doesn't seem to change anything.

I'm a bit desperate...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

In rereading through this thread, I think the fertilizers are harming the plants. That includes the GH increaser you're using. It contains sulfates, which can be converted to H2S.

I think you're overdoing everything.


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## Guibang (Nov 11, 2019)

I've stopped dosing anything. I've now been using tap water for the last two weeks as well as a water conditioner (composition of my tap water in this link: http://www.eaudeparis.fr/fileadmin/contribution/UDI/udi_EST.pdf sorry it's upside down. Does this look satisfying to you? It doesn't contain much potassium though. I've measured it and found around 2mg/liter).

As I said I've put back my lamp to max power. Because of a succession of bad décisions I had almost turned off blue and red LEDs. From what I've read these two colors are essential for plants. So it's back on. It might be too strong a light though. But I thought I might try to stimulate growth before turning it down a bit.

I really don't do any cleaning. I don't prune a lot since plants don't grow that much. I admit I tend to do a 20% weekly water change. I am thinking on continuing to do so since I am transitioning to tap water.

I use a little water pomp to have a bit of flow. it is covered with a piece of tights to prevent shrimps from going through. 
Temp is and has always been 23°C

I wonder if my soil might lack nutrients?

It is all very disturbing. For the first two months I had impressive growth. Everything looked sane and beautiful and then it started to deteriorate...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hard to say without seeing a picture of your tank.

I think that 2 mg/l of K is plenty.

Almost any light source will work. Red and blue may be optimal, but they are not essential.


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