# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Cloning and aging process...



## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

I have some questions for those of you with some genetic knowledge:

Some plants (I don't know if this apply to all plants) are very easy to reproduce, this plants are easy to propagate by cloning (splitting the plant in two,three...pieces).
Now here is my question:

the cloned pieces have the same age of the mother plant, right?

Some plants do age (I don't know if this aging process also apply to all plants), losing vitality, and starting to decay, thelomerase decreasing in length (this is a proteine that regulate the cellular process of division, preventing further splitting when a given size is reached).

1Âº Now what to do to bring youth to our aquarium plants?
Inducing some sexual reproduction on those decaying plants?

2Âº What are the plants that decay with a more fast process?

[This message was edited by AntÃ³nio Vitor on Fri March 28 2003 at 10:18 PM.]


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

I have some questions for those of you with some genetic knowledge:

Some plants (I don't know if this apply to all plants) are very easy to reproduce, this plants are easy to propagate by cloning (splitting the plant in two,three...pieces).
Now here is my question:

the cloned pieces have the same age of the mother plant, right?

Some plants do age (I don't know if this aging process also apply to all plants), losing vitality, and starting to decay, thelomerase decreasing in length (this is a proteine that regulate the cellular process of division, preventing further splitting when a given size is reached).

1Âº Now what to do to bring youth to our aquarium plants?
Inducing some sexual reproduction on those decaying plants?

2Âº What are the plants that decay with a more fast process?

[This message was edited by AntÃ³nio Vitor on Fri March 28 2003 at 10:18 PM.]


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## tsunami06 (Feb 6, 2003)

This is a very interesting topic! I have always
wondered how long our plants last in our tanks.

Anubias sp last for decades, for one.

The Heteranthera zosterifolia and Hemianthus
micranthemoides in my tanks have been in there
for years with no signs of slowing down. Whenever I didn't change any factors in the
aquarium (nutrient levels, lighting, etc) and
saw the plants begin to decline, I've always
thought that perhaps they've reached the end
of their lifespan. Not so. The tank had
simply reached a point where it needed
supplementation of another nutrient (such
as phosphate, for example, which is usually
in excess in the beginning and becomes deficient
as plant growth accelerates).

The best example would probably be tracing the
rare stem plant cuttings that came in from
Japan a few years ago and have recently
spread throughout the US: Ludwigia brevipes,
Gratiola, Blyxa sp. Vietnam (alternifolia?), 
Hottonia palustris, Nesaea pedicellata, etc.
Since most, if not all of these plants came
from those original cuttings, I wonder how
long it will be until these cuttings will
show aging. 

Carlos


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Carlos, it seems that most plant are ethernal...









I know some aren't...
Age is a good thing... it improves evolution.


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Antonio,

Very interesting question.

Some plants have a fixed life cycle. They grow for a year, or two years, then die. Some plants are seasonal because of their environment, but when taken out of their environment seem to live indefinitely. Others are perennial plants that normally live indefinitely.

I think we have quite a few plants in the aquarium hobby that are often seasonal in nature but grow perennially in our tanks. Many Echinodorus and Saggittaria grow that way. 

We might have a few plants in the hobby that have fixed life cycles. Barclaya comes to mind but there might be a few more. Others seem to be perennial.

It's hard to say just how old a plant might be. Some are rarely grown from seed, so probably anything we have is a clone of something that was collected from nature a long time ago.

The oldest plants I have are probably some C. wendtii. I've kept them and their clones for 15 years or so and they are still growing vigorously. I have some other crypts (balansae, walkeri, petchii) that are almost that old. I also have a number of other plants, including java fern, anubias and a sword plant (E. bleheri, maybe) that I think I've had for at least 8 years. Most of them are still going strong.

I expect that E. bleheri in nature is a very seasonal plant. I've cloned it over and over and right now the plant I have left isn't very vigorous. I wonder if it might be at its end.


Roger Miller


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## Paulo Pinheiro (Feb 11, 2003)

Very interesting question in deed!

I believe that the current knouledge tells us that cells grow old because in the process of division they start loosing the end parts of chromossomes - the telomers. This, coupled to changes in gene expression ultimatly lead to what we call "aging". One consequence os cloning in the true sense of the word is a shortening of the life expectation, as was seen in Dolly. However, plants are "inferior" life forms than animals and their cells are more adaptable to changes of the outside world. Their cells can undiferentiate and become more or less a stem cell, ablle to become another cell type. Therefore I would suspect that aging in plants is a diferent concept than aging in animals. Many times it is possible to grab a piece of a very old, bad looking plant, plant it, nurture it and it will become a splendorous looking tree. Also, I belive that the areas that originate new growth have a suply of cells in an undiferentiated state that only divide, therefore providing a means for continuous growth if conditions are OK, as seems to be the case in our aquariums (well, not mine yet...) all the year long.

Just my opinion from my long forgotten plant physiology classes.

Allen's rule: when everything fails read the instructions!!!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2003)

Generally for most plants, the meristematic tissue lives "forever". Some grasses in the plains of the USA are around 10,000 years old. They are just clone after clone. Meristematic tissue is not influenced like in our cells when it divides. Bacteria has no ends to lose after each division since it's DNA is circular. Some bacteria can live incredible time periods. Fungi as well. 

Most all aquatics will live and grow forever so to speak. A few do not and need to go through meiosis and karyogamy and form a new diploid zygote. But only a few and most folks don't keep these(e.g. some Ottelias). 

Lag's and Crypts are the two best plants in this hobby that should focus in on tissue culture. Rare, coveted and hard to grow or reproduce sexually. 

There's a tissue culture expert that works on specifically aquarium plants and orchids etc here at UF, Dr Kane. Nice guy. 
Brad's (from FAN) son is one of his students although I have not met him yet. 

You might want to follow up and ask him some questions.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

i'm a lay person in genetics, but here's my 2 cents. as has been pointed out, higher life forms degrade more quickly than lower with cloning. if you want to know if your plants are degrading genetically, simply observe whether the plants are growing like the original plant matter they are derived from. as genetic information degrades, leaf forms, stems, etc will show signs. ie, leaf formation, size and shape will degrade as cloning degrades genetic material. if your plants still appear as they do in the plant book pics, you likely are not having a problem in this area. simply re-producing them naturally (flowering out your plants), will add new genetic material and re-generate them. or, just buy some new ones.

nice topic.

rick


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2003)

Plants can and do reproduce asexually, but not mammals. I believe aphids are the highest "critter" that reproduces asexually, Daphnia etc can also (parthenogenisis). 
The meristematic tissue is unique to plants and has indeterminate growth unlike critters which have a determinate growth. 

Humans cannot be too smart, they waited till there was 6 Billion of us to start cloning

Regards, 
Tom Barr



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

So, most plants do not age.
interesting...

higher life forms, reach this higher status only because they had ancestors that were not "ethernal".

Aging process is a natural scheme to leave "space" for new variation, and thus providing fuel for quicker evolution.

in that way, life forms can sustain larger habitat changes, reducing the possibility of total extinction.

look at what is happening with the banana plant... a disease can whipe out all the clones in the world...

Sex is great for evolution, but Aging and Sex combined offers increase speed in evolution.

Roger said:


> quote:
> 
> Some plants are seasonal because of their environment


So, it's similar with the aging process... 
hum...
maybe (MAYBE), dying if there isn't all the "good" parameters (like winter in northern hemisphere), might actually be "good" for the plant...

Our very difficult plants, that only survive with everything right, might actually have one big advantage over other more easy plants...








they are not "ethernal" on their's habitats, So they evolve quicker.

what do you think about my thoughts?

Regards!
AntÃ³nio Vitor

[This message was edited by AntÃ³nio Vitor on Sat April 05 2003 at 06:15 PM.]


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Tom Barr said:


> quote:
> 
> Humans cannot be too smart, they waited till there was 6 Billion of us to start cloning


Maybe, we are smart enough to clone ourselfs, only because we were not able to clone ourselfs before...


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## wetmanNY (Feb 1, 2003)

Aren't there some all-female cyprinodonts and some all female lzards (anoles?).

There's a field in Norway that's a single clone of a grass plant, and a large area in Wisconsin (?) with a single fungal mycelium. On a larger scale there's a South Indian forest that is entirely a clone of one (fig?) tree.

The bearded garden iris called "Florentina" is sterile (a hybrid?). It's been divided and replanted since the fifteenth century...

Sex isn't everything.


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## António Vitor1 (Feb 2, 2003)

Yes sex is not everything... but is very important... in 10 years you may not be able to eat more Bananas...
banana extinction


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## imported_aspen (Feb 20, 2003)

he he he.

what is the largest living organism?


there is an aspen grove in colorado, that covers 70 square miles, all grown on the same root.

rick (aspen)


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

How much of it has to do with how long plant stock is submerged? Isn't it that most plants that grow both above and below water are only submerged for a couple months a year with the sustainable duration of submersion different for different plants? So, if you had a short term" submerged plant, couldn't you invigorate it by regularly adapting it to emersed conditions and growing it that way for a while (not necessarily sexually reproducing it during that time).

I had thought that Hydrocotyle sibthorpoides might be one of those "short term" plants. I got mine about a year ago and noticed that after a while it started to not do as well (suffered badly during a blackout in October). To my surprise, it has started a comeback and is doing well again (still a _very_ slow grower). Other plants I've heard mentioned as short termers are Bacopa myriophiloides and Ludwigia inclinata. I have no experience with the former and very little with the latter.

When I read through the Kasselmann book for the first time, I was surprised to see Blyxa aubertii listed as an annual. Supposedly, it's a "short lived plant". I had one that grew to a very large size, produced many flowers and seeds, and divided at the base into several smaller plants that refused to grow any further despite my best attempts to get them going. Would that have anything to do with the natural life cycle of the plant? I did manage to get one seedling, but I think something ate it.








(why is the aubertii in Kasselmann on page 154 red?)

There is at least one all-female species of salamander. They mate with males of another species, but that only stimulates egg development and does not result in the contribution of genetic material. I read about it in an Audubon book I think. I'll look it up later.


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## leedavis (Mar 22, 2010)

Paulo Pinheiro said:


> Very interesting question in deed!
> 
> I believe that the current knouledge tells us that cells grow old because in the process of division they start loosing the end parts of chromossomes - the telomers. This, coupled to changes in gene expression ultimatly lead to what we call "aging". One consequence os cloning in the true sense of the word is a shortening of the life expectation, as was seen in Dolly. However, plants are "inferior" life forms than animals and their cells are more adaptable to changes of the outside world. Their cells can undiferentiate and become more or less a stem cell, ablle to become another cell type. Therefore I would suspect that aging in plants is a diferent concept than aging in animals. Many times it is possible to grab a piece of a very old, bad looking plant, plant it, nurture it and it will become a splendorous looking tree. Also, I belive that the areas that originate new growth have a suply of cells in an undiferentiated state that only divide, therefore providing a means for continuous growth if conditions are OK, as seems to be the case in our aquariums (well, not mine yet...) all the year long.
> 
> ...


Stem cells are very important and it is being used in a stem cell transplant. In the case of biology, it is very crucial in cloning and replication too.


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