# rotala rotundifolia - small leaves and uprooting



## Skizhx

I have a large (well, large for my tank) patch of rotala rotundifolia in the back corner near both my filter intakes and my CO2 reactor. 

I've noticed some of the stems are coming out of the substrate. The bottom of the stems is black with no roots. 

To give an idea, it looks as if the stem died just at where it would go into the substrate and separated from its burried portion. This is what I believe is happening. Although it is not affecting every plant in the patch.

Furthermore I have noticed since replanting this new rotala that all of my rotala are producing smaller leaves than I remember (they are about 0.5-0.7cm). The growth rate of this plant also seems slow... I have not observed the smaller leaves or slow growth in any of my other plants.

The rotala was replaced I believe back in December, so I do not think this is a case of a plant just getting itself established. Furthermore, the entire patch was not replaced, and the old plants are affected as well.

I know some plants stay low in the presence of brighter light... I'm almost wondering if this might be the problem, as it would potentially explain other unexpected contrasting observations between this tank and my low-tech tank.

There is no chlorosis, no holes, damage, twisting, or other indications in the leaves bessides their small size. Both old and new growth are small. It might be worth noting that despite EI dosing with a little extra iron under high lighting and situated right next to the output of the CO2 reactor this entire patch is solid green. It is not the green variation.

Thanks


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## HeyPK

Tell us about your substrate. It sounds as though it might be highly anaerobic, to the point where it is toxic. If you have any other plants in the same substrate, how are they doing?


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## Skizhx

It's flourite black sand... 

I think it's about 3 inches deep, which I have wondered might be perhaps too deep... Although this was my first planted tank and I was advised to go 3-4 inches since I would be keeping many crypts.

My crypts are doing quite well... In fact I actually removed some C. Balansae that had outgrown the tank and become a nuisance and it had quite a large and healthy root system. My Wendtii also seems to be doing quite well. 

Downoi is growing nicely. Dwarf hairgrass is growing nicely, and I can see its roots going down to around the bottom of the substrate against the front pane of glass.

Hygro has also been doing well, but has not been showing the red colouration I was hoping for/expecting, but grows well enough.

I planted 3 small stems of blyxa japonica... The bunch is now larger than my head...

I also have no seen any bubbles coming from the substrate, and do not see any bubbles releasing from the substrate when I'm putting new plants in, etc.

I keep malaysian trumpet snails to help keep the substrate from turning anaerobic, and I have kuhli loaches, but they don't see to burrow ever.


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## HeyPK

Now I am more puzzled than ever. R rotundifolia is an adaptable plant that is not especially fussy. Could there be something toxic where the Rotala is planted? Try planting a stem or two next to a healthy plant and see if it can get rooted. Also, can you show us a picture?


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## Skizhx

I will get pictures, but it's currently the middle of the night, so my tank lights are not on at the moment.

I'll get pictures first thing in the morning.

It's not like every single stem is rotting and floating up or anything... It actually still looks quite attractive in the tank and to someone who didn't know any better, you wouldn't suspect a thing.

I agree though... It's a little puzzling, but something else has been puzzling me, and I was wondering if they may not point to excessive lighting.

See, I'm running 2x T5HO fixture and a CF fixture with a polished reflector. The CF fixture, while probably a little overkill on lighting, is because the T5HO doesn't disperse the light evenly between the foreground and the background. So much so the the plants actually start growing at an angle in towards the centre. I mean it's a 6 inch wide fixture over a 12 inch wide tank :-\

The T5HO fixture alone though doesn't produce enough light to raise it high enough to spread the light properly and still maintain high light levels.

Furthermore, the H. polysperma rosanervig I have in my low-tech tank (planted from clippings of the exact same plant), shows more red colouration than the one in this tank which is pretty well solid green through the whole plant. 

So of course I find it a little confusing that under high light with CO2 and EI dosing this plant is pure green, while under low light, no CO2, NPT style setup it's producing a bit of red...

I have had nitrate problems in the past from following EI guidelines. Yet when substituting all KNO3 for K2SO4 (for the potassium), my plants show nitrogen deficiency (particularly the C. wendtii and my tests read levels around 7ppm), perhaps indicating that my overall growth rate may be slower than it should be (first time growing high-tech so I have no point of reference). Or maybe it's just because my tank isn't exactly loaded with fast growing plants.

Another observation I've made is that my plants have not been showing much or any pearling for awhile... Nothing has changed in regards to lighting or CO2. I used to get pearling on my HC down at the bottom of the tank... Now only my java fern gets a bit of pearling if I'm lucky... The rotala does not pearl much at all... This change has been more recent over the last month or so. The CF bulb is due for replacement, so that may be the reason.


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## Skizhx

I'm linking to the images in case anyone's internet has problems loading multiple images at once (ie. 56k users).

Stem end of rotala. This is the end that would be in the ground.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9422/dsc0023ev.jpg

Leaf... The ruler is in cm.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7208/dsc0027lg.jpg

Full plant
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3963/dsc0031aj.jpg

Full plant with ruler
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8647/dsc0032z.jpg

Tall rotala - Can easily see the size of the individual leaves. I'm not sure how these two lone stems avoided the pruning I did last.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7073/dsc0005ijr.jpg

Rotala patch - front
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6991/dsc0007ywp.jpg

Rotala patch - Side. 
This picture sucks, I have things in the way and could not set up the camera properly. Also there is some algae on the glass here as I have never once cleaned this pane.
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9052/dsc0015go.jpg

Full tank
http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/3862/dsc0019n.jpg

You may notice that some of my wendtii has yellowing leaves. This started shortly after I cut KNO3 out of my dosing because of high levels that resulted in some fin rot in a couple of my fish. KNO3 has been added back to my dosing at 1/3 the guideline dose. Just going to keep watching it and adjust accordingly. The unplanted vallisneria is new. I bought it to replace C. Balansae that was in the far left that just became a nuisance since it didn't prune well. The hair grass carpet is also fairly new and hasn't had time to fill in yet.

Picture of the rotala from 2 months ago. Lots of pearling 
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8530/dsc0044smallq.jpg

Heh... you ask for info, I try to be thorough, thanks for looking!


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## HeyPK

It looks like your Rotala needs more light. I think it had more light back when you took the 'pearling' picture. Other plants, including some of the floating ones are cutting back on the light getting to the Rotala. The Crypts in front are also cutting off light. Even the Crypts look like they could use more light. The really sick looking plant in the first several pictures looks like it has lost a lot of leaves and is not getting enough light to grow or produce roots. A plant that has lost a lot of its leaves needs more intense light to grow than a healthy one. I was assuming a hydrogen sulfide blackened undergravel portion from your description, but it doesn't look like that at all. Many of the Rotala plants are still growing new leaves and are probably normally rooted, but they all look light starved. The ones to the back of the tank look the worst. The pictures are very helpful in diagnosing the problem.


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## Skizhx

That's interesting... I was actually running less light back then... Since that pearling picture was taken my T5NO fixture malfunctioned and I had to get it replaced. They didn't have any more T5NO fixtures, so I got a T5HO. I was using the same CF fixture at the time. It was a cheap coralife T5NO that just stopped turning on and was still under warranty.

However the bulb in the CF fixture, as I said, has gotten older.

As for the floating plants, I've been meaning to get rid of those soon-ish, I added them when I was having algae problems and the tank wasn't fully planted. Though I keep them on the other end of the tank over the java fern. The java fern I also recently retied, as the bottoms were dying off.

You mention the plants in the back look the most light-starved. And of course the CF fixture is there because the T5HO was leaving the back dark...

Same tank roughly 1 month ago, around the same time I replaced the T5NO with the T5HO.
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/7130/dsc00162small.jpg

Also, note that these tank shots were not taken under the same settings or lighting, so don't judge the brightness of the light just by how it looks in the photographs. That photograph, as you can see, is actually lit only by the T5HO. I was running the tank with the CF as well at the time though.


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## HeyPK

In your picture, 1 month ago, the Rotala looks all green. It does not have that brownish green or pinkish green that it gets with better lighting and which it shows in your pearling picture.


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## Skizhx

Hmmmm... Maybe it's the age of the bulb then... Otherwise I don't see how switching from a cheap T5NO fixture with 1 reflector for 2 bulbs to a T5HO fixture with individual reflectors for each bulb results in lower life.

I was thinking of replacing the CF with another T5HO and suspending it above the tank, since I can link my fixtures together and suspend them together. Also would make working in the tank easier cause I wouldn't have to take fixtures off the top...

Anyways... Thanks for taking the time and help... Lack of light would have honestly been the last thing I would have suspected... I mean on paper 2 T5HO and a CF sounds like a ton of light on a 29gal...

Or is the problem just too many plants too close together?

Again, thanks for your help.


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## HeyPK

Your T5HO bulbs are how long and what wattage? What wattage is the additional compact florescent bulb? What is your CO2 source and how are you regulating CO2 input?


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## Skizhx

The T5HO uses two 24W bulbs, has good polished reflectors, and separate reflectors for each bulb (30 inch fixture) and the CF is 65W (again, 30 inch fixture) w/ polished reflector.

The CF bulb is just approaching 6 months old.

CO2 is pressurized and diffused using a red sea 500 reactor (as you can see in the picture). Though I was going to replace this with a rex grigg style DIY reactor soon enough.

I monitor the CO2 using a drop checker at 4dKH.


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## HeyPK

Certainly seems like enough light and enough CO2. You keep the drop checker at a green or yellow-green color, I presume. How many hours of lighting a day? Next area to investigate: Fertilizing regimen? Iron and micronutrients? Water changes?


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## Skizhx

My photoperiod is 10 hours long. It used to be 13 hours because I mis-set the timer and hadn't realized it for the longest time. I figured that perhaps the reason my hygro and rotala were so green might have been overlighting though, so I reduced it quite some while ago. This didn't seem to change anything though.

I do a 1 hour lights-off mid-day and have since I started the tank (I calculate this out of my photoperiod hours, so no mistakes there).

My CO2 is on a solenoid plugged into a timer to shut off at night. I run an airstone at night as I noticed the fish showed signs of oxygen deprivation in the mornings before the lights came on. The air stone resolved this. When my plants were pearling it would start approximately 20 minutes after lights (and CO2) came on.

For ferts, I was following the EI guidelines for a 20-40gal tank, using K2SO4 to add a little extra potassium (since the GH booster adds a little potassium, but with 9dGH and 3dKH I don't use the GH booster). Actually one interesting thing I noted was without K2SO4 the new growth on my wendtii would be yellow. This resolved itself when I began adding K2SO4.

However I wound up with very high nitrate levels, and two fish got fin rot, so for the last week my fert mix has been consisting of KH2PO4 and K2SO4 only.

To be exact I believe (off the top of my head) that the mix I was using for about a month was 1.05g KH2PO4 + 3.71g K2SO4 + 60mL H2O (distilled) = 3 dose (1 week) supply.

I'm now including KNO3 back into my ferts, since the plants are showing clear yellowing at the tips since cutting it out completely.

My trace mix is 0.80g trace (it's not CSM+B but I contacted the company and the mix is 99% identical)


> Fe 7%, B 1.3%, Mn 2%, Zn 0.4%, Cu 0.1%, Mo 0.06%


The mix is intended for hydroponics use.

This makes a 3 dose solution, or a 1 week supply. To this I also add 6mL of seachem's flourish iron, adding a total 0.1ppm of iron to each dose of the mix.

In accordance with EI, I'm performing 50% water change every week consistently.


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## Rana

Have you got your problem solved. I also have similar experience with Rotala.

In my experience, I always had tough time growing Rotala in inert substrate with water column dosing. The new growth were always deformed with very tiny leaves.

However, when I used ADA AS in the same tank, the growth was splendid.

May be Rotala prefers lean fertilisation in water column and uptake from substrate.

Regards
Rana


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## Tex Gal

Another thing to consider is that as your plant mass increases you have to make sure you increase the nutrients in your tank. If you get a huge plant mass they will require more nutrients. You will start to see deficiencies like HeyPK speaks of. In my tank with a HUGE plant mass my fert needs almost double!


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## Skizhx

This thread was 4 months old. I lost a battle with cladophora, so I'm now just looking after the fish and a few of the tougher plants under low light.

I will be taking care of the clado and setting up a proper planted tank from scratch again, hopefully in the next few months after I take care of some more important real-life issues.

Oh, and for those interested. Yes, I do believe that the problem was indeed not enough light. I did eventually get healthier growth. 

Once again thanks for the assistance!


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## darkoon

i had similar issue with rotala planted on the side of the tank, once i added a clamp light, they just took off.


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## wet

Hey Skizhx.

What's the name of your hydroponic mix and where (continent/country/whatever) is it available? I'd like to add it to calc.petalphile.com and assume it'll help others.

Thanks!


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## wet

Just an update that skizhx provided valuable information via PM, and this Dutch Nutrient Formula is now supported by http://calc.petalphile.com and http://calc.petalphile.com/mobile and, by extension, http://ei.petalphile.com

Thanks!


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