# Helping the Eheim



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Hi all,
I am running an Eheim 2217 on a 58 g tank. I have been recently enlightened to the fact that the filter is not nearly powerful enough for this tank. I love my Eheims but I can’t afford a $500 Eheim filter upgrade right now. 

Can anyone give me suggestions/instructions/comments on how to help this one with a pump addition, as has been suggested by a really helpful member? I am totally clueless in this area, so don’t think you are going to offend me if you get very basic. I need specifics….Thanks!
ray:


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Sounds like your convinced you need more flow, but can I ask what lead you to that? I would thing a 2217 would be enough, but I don't know your tank.


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## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

Your 2217 is way more than enough for a 58g tank. It's rated for tanks up to 159g in size and circulates 209g per hour. Unless you have some sort of endangered species that requires ridiculously clear water with absurd amounts of circulation, I think you're fine. Don't waste your hard earned money on pumps/new filters/etc.

I've been running a 2217 on my 65g discus tank for nearly two years now and have never had problems (aside from the damn impeller shaft breaking, but that was my own fault).


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Hi guys, thanks for the responses.
What led to this? I am having BBA issues and a (super nice & really helpful) well-known fellow here suggested that my 2217 wasn't handling the organics sufficiently.
I do need to replace some of the media. But he said that I really should go by this rule; 58g x 10 = 580gph.

I am glad to hear Franzi is doing OK with this setup.
Franzi, what media do you have in yours, may I ask? How do you have the inlet/outlet set up?
thanks, both of you.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

And I have a 55 gal tank that is growing plants very, very well without CO2 and only 1 wpg of light. If a Val. nana is making shoots then things are pretty good.

The filter in that tank moves only about 70-80 gph.

The point is - this particular setup works. I'm happy with it. But why is it that the Japanese do flow of 8-10x the tank volume?

Once again - "this works for me" vs. "this works every time" kind of reasoning.

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Vancat how old is the setup?


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

about 6 months-


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

vancat said:


> about 6 months-


Have you had bba early on or is it just recently?


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## JustLikeAPill (Oct 9, 2006)

I am a fan of using circulation that is ten times the volume of your tank, so for high circulation your optimal amount of gallons per hour would be 580 gallons per hour. This is for general tank health, and I'm not saying is will fix your BBA problem. 

That is optimal, but 400-500 would be fantastic when you consider your tank doesn't hold all 58 gallons of water. It probably holds 50 gallons of water once you consider the substrate and hardscape displacement (my 17 gallon tank only holds 12 gallons of water, and I'm running a filter rated 180 GPH with an actual flow rate of 130 GPH)

Plenty of flow ensures there are no dead spots, detritus is filtered out mechanically, co2 is delivered as uniformly as possible, and debris doesn't settle in or on plants.

I suggest you get another 2217 and keep the 2217 you have now. Just put the intake and outflow on the other side of the tank, or use a spray bar on the other side. No need for a $500 investment. The simplest option to get your tank up to 10x circulation is to use a powerhead, but they are ugly, so why not just add another filter? A Rena xp1 is another good option.

This is in general my advice regarding flow and filtration. I have never been unlucky enough to deal with BBA. Of course, now that. Have said that, I am sure I will get it ; ) regardless, I am a firm believer in the 10x theory. I suggest you try to get a minimum of 5x per hour (for you, about 290 GPH) and if you can only get 8x per hour that is fine as well.

Just add another Eheim 2217. You can find a used one for 100 or less, it doesn't have to be new. If you're having a problem with the dissolved organic content of your water, toss a 100 ml bag of Purigen in there. I also believe Excel and H2O2 kill BBA but I havn't had BBA so I've never researched it. If your plants aren't sensitive to Excel, I highly suggest you use it as a source of carbon if you don't want to use pressurized co2.

You Mentioned replacing some of the media. Don't replace the biomedia (ehfisubstrat pro?) Ever. It will last longer than you,your children, or your grandchildren. Wash it well in dechlorinated water and swirl it around in a bucket. The same goes for ehfimech. For the coarse sponges, rinse the crap out of them in dechlorinated water. No need to replace them. Just replace the white filter pad(s) if it is too gunky to try to clean out, otherwise if it isn't too full of crap you can wash this out thoroughly as well, or replace with bonded polyester batting or the cut-to-fit polyester filter material. Don't buy Eheim brand pads unless they are marked down for quick sale or something, because they are grossely overpriced.


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## JERP (Feb 4, 2003)

Do you need flow or filtration? You can add flow with a cheap pump.

Is your filter media plugged? Flow drops tremendously with a clogged filter.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

You need flow, not necessarily more filtration. True, the 2217 is rated for a 159 gallon tank, but that doesn't take into consideration that the tank will be densely planted with plants. 

Consider adding a Hydor Koralia powerhead. I would use a 2 or even a 3. I like them because the it's not a jetstream of flow that they add, but rather it's more 3 dimensional.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

For me it's not filtration in the traditional sense. I mean once a good size tank is established most of the filtration is in the tank not in the cansister. After startup a really thing the cansister is mostly mechanical and flow. With that size filter and tank I can't imagine there wouldn't be enough flow even in a densly planted tank. I never really understood how plants stop nutrient delivery. The nutrients are dissolved so basically whereever the water can go the nutrients are going. Just my opinion, but I'm not convienced otherwise as of yet.


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## OVT (Aug 26, 2010)

Oh boy, here we go again . Here's a related thread I started on a similar subject.

Your experience and approach seem to parallel mine: *a)* something goes wrong (algae, plants looking lackluster, a dead fish, hydro dropping leaves, a plant species that used to overrun the tank completely dies off, etc etc etc) *b)* we start looking for the cause and a solution *c)* we do research, we bug people, we read on internet *d)* we get 7 opinions, 12 solutions, 16 recommendations, and 32 potential approaches *e)* we get confused and frustrated *f)* we try a couple of things and then some others and eventually things are back to "normal" *g)* we still don't know or understand what it was or what fixed it *h)* and something else starts the same cycle.

My personal opinion: no one still really knows all the causes and effects. We are still in the dark (my humble apologies to experts, I'm mostly talking about myself) and it really drives us nuts.

I read all I could on "hi-tech" and on "El Natural" and everything in between set-ups and tried to emulate them. My mileage always varies. I always have something going on in 4 of my tanks, even after 10+ years of "experience".

What are the specific conditions that would cause BBA? I personally still do not know. Not for real. If we do not know the cause then how can we consistently fix it with a specific set of steps? We need more research, we need more understanding. That quest for knowledge is what keeps me in the hobby.

Here's my todays's situation: 75G Tall, 95% planted, 4 x 65W CF @ 10hrs, Eheim 2026, light bio-load, no pressurized Co2, dosing Excel and EI ferts, 20% WC 2 weeks, etc etc etc, pH 6.8 80.4F, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 15, Phosphate 1.0 dKH 3, dGH 6, up for about 10 years. Just noticed some hair algae on Nymphaea and some Vallisneria. .....

I also noticed that the water column is colder on the bottom then on the top. I was also told that Eheim 2026 is not enough for a 75G (was good enough when I bought it 10 years ago?).

Sooo, I bought another Eheim 2026 on eBay for $190 brand new with substrate and inflow and outflow kits, thinking I need to increase the circulation and/or flow. Will it fix it my specific problem? Only the time will tell.

Please prove me wrong, thank you all for putting up with my rumblings, and happy plant / fish keeping. Carpe Diem.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

It appears to me that maintaining a clean tank that never has issues has 3 general things to be said about it:

1. Setup with prevention in mind
So you don't fight problems but take care of them before they appear.

This seems to really make sense in the case of BBA. I have noticed consistently that if BBA appears for the first time in a tank the first up to 3 days it's very easy to get rid of it. Example: A tank where the BBA showed up everywhere in the course of 2 days. I immediately started to change water a lot. 3 days later there was not a single sign of the BBA. Once again - I've noticed that pattern more than once. Young BBA is not the same as the established one.

So in that same line of thought - prevention goes a long way. Effective reduction of organics, shrimp, water changes, good circulation with no dead spots. All things that may not work when the BBA is already established. But before it has even shown it makes the difference between night and day.

2. Consistent maintenance
I've seen how consistent maintenance (commercial accounts) really makes a difference. BBA may still show up but it's easier to take care of. It may not be young BBA (1-3 days old) but it appears that the consistency of the maintenance keeps the environment more or less unwelcoming for algae to establish themseles.

3. Mature tank
A 4 year old tank that is well established is a completely different beast from what we normally deal with. Such tanks grow plants on seemingly nothing (substrate depletion is not an issue, have no clue why), water changes are up to you (you can leave the tank evaporate 1/2 and still no issues), flow matters minimally, light requirements seem to be minimal. Of course that is not a tank in which any plant will thrive. But that does not mean that high light plants are out of the question. It is a different beast indeed. AND it stays completely, pristinely clean.

On the other hand - without the above 3 - we deal with what we have heard about for years on these forums. The same frustrating battle. In the dark.

--Nikolay


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

niko said:


> It appears to me that maintaining a clean tank that never has issues has 3 general things to be said about it:
> 
> 1. Setup with prevention in mind..


+1 in the strong terms. I couldn't agree more. I've always preached that it's much better to be preventive. Most people starting up new tanks don't do this and they end up having to go to a reactive mode when dealing with BBA and other algaes. Then it becomes as Niko said "..the same frustrating battle in the dark."

There is to me a hugh difference as I said what a tank needs at startup and what it needs once it's fully mature. It needs your help much more at startup since we are dealing with a baby biofilter that can't walk yet or even crawl. It doesn't take alot of Ammonia to light the fire especially under good light.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ar-vs-duck-bill-circulation-2.html#post568770

The part that says "logically" has to do with this here thread.

--Nikolay


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

hi all,
i'm back to the computer. Back to the original discussion.
One of my suggested issues was not with a plugged filter but the type of media I had in use. Niko suggested I didn't have enough biological filtration (I was using the Eheim ceramic macaroni, the squiggly green Eheim stuff, and a filter pad). Per Niko's suggestion, just this past weekend I added some of the round brown Eheim stuff that looks like my cat's food. Sorry for the lame descriptions but if I guess at the terminology I may get it wrong.... Ehfi-this and Ehfi-that.

I very recently changed to a vertical spraybar from an ill-conceived duckbill outflow. I am sure this will effect the circulation positively.

BTW...re: the suggestion of adding another filter....I do happen to have an extra Eheim 2217 available.... but I don't want my tank to be an unattractive mass of hoses. That would look worse than the BBA. If my priorities sound messed up, it's because I want this tank to first, look nice. If it looks like crap, I have no use for the whole thing. It's a centerpiece in my house. The BBA doesn't look tooooo bad, but I'd really like to get rid of it, of course.

I have considered a Koralia in the past, but again, more wires, more equipment more $$$.

I'm hoping the filter media addition and vertical spraybar output changes help. If not....back to the drawing board.

Thanks all! Keep throwing suggestions if you like.  I'm all ears.


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## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

vancat said:


> I am glad to hear Franzi is doing OK with this setup.
> Franzi, what media do you have in yours, may I ask? How do you have the inlet/outlet set up?
> thanks, both of you.


I've been using the same media that came with the filter, except for the carbon(?) pad, and replace the fine filter every few months with the filter fiber you can get at kensfish for much cheaper than eheims pads. I have the inlet in the left hand corner of the tank and the spraybar placed in the center of the tank at water level, creating a very gentle surface agitation. I also have the flow valve shut a bit to reduce flow cuz otherwise it would be a whirlpool in the tank. The plants gently sway so I know circulation is adequate.

Again, this is what works for me and I offer you my experience so you can draw your own conclusions once you evaluate everybody else's experiences and suggestions. Hope it helps!


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Thanks Franzi!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

vancat said:


> What led to this? I am having BBA issues ...


BBA is usually indicative of poor CO2 levels and/or poor flow. It can exist over the whole aquarium or it can exist in just a few areas.

IMO, you should increase your CO2 level and add a 2 to 3 Hydor Koralia powerhead as Aaron T suggested. Many people complain that the 2217 doesn't provide enough flow and it needs help.

If you aren't adding CO2 (I didn't see this mentioned.), you should double dose Seachem's Excel on a daily basis or one of the commercial glutaraldehydes at a 2x Excel equivalent level until it is under control. A double dose of Excel for your aquarium is 9 to 11 mL. And still add a powerhead.

Increased CO2, Excel and a powerhead can be another option.

When you do your water changes, you can spot treat the BBA with Excel or hydrogen peroxide. The BBA will turn pink when it is dieing. Then your algae eating crew will usually eat it.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

yep, I have plenty of pressurized CO2. Just ordered a Hydor Koralia. have treated with peroxide and it works- hope I can keep it from continually coming back with these improvements. Thanks!!


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

vancat said:


> yep, I have plenty of pressurized CO2. Just ordered a Hydor Koralia. have treated with peroxide and it works- hope I can keep it from continually coming back with these improvements. Thanks!!


That's good news.

Do you have any plants that Excel would melt? You could add Excel as part of your daily maintenance until your BBA gets under control.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

hmmm. Not sure. I was trying to stay away from Excel, since most of the remedies involving it recommended 2x dosing and that scared me away from the idea. But- as a maintenance- that's a good idea. what does it melt?

BTW, someone mentioned Purigen. How long does that stuff last before recharging is needed?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Metracide 14 is a cheaper, stronger glutaraldehyde product than Excel. You can dilute it with distilled water, RO water, etc so that you can dose the same as Excel. Dilute it to 1.5 M : 1 W. There is a discussion on the forum about it: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ions/75088-metricide-14-vs-seachem-excel.html

http://www.dealmed.com/Products/Surface-Disinfectants/Metricide-14-Day-1-Gallon

There are just a few plants that are sensitive to it and normal dosing levels. You can cut the doses in half and they are OK. Vals and Anacharis are two of the main ones that are sensitive.
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/FlourishExcel.html

It is a good idea to read the Purigen FAQ's. There are some dechlor's that don't work with it. 
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Purigen.html


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Thank you, LeftC.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

You are very welcome.


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## jerrybforl (Jul 22, 2008)

I used to run a 2215 on a 55 and worked fine. BBA is lack of flow but also lack of CO2. I would agree with JustlikeaPill to add another small canister. or if its flow your looking for just add an internal pump like a Hydor Koralia.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Just got a Koralia and put it in last night. Fish seem to like it!
Let's see what happens.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

Hydor Koralia 750- Deal of the Day at big Al's- $19.99! and I thought my $24.99 at Pet Mt was a steal.


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