# Pygmy Sunfish Spawned (Evergladei) :)



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

My little pygmies did it! After 4 weeks of conditioning on baby brine shrimp and the addition of some moss and fluorite substrate my species only tank of about 6 females and 3 males finally spawned  I counted 13 babies, but I'm sure there are more. They are very small and sit motionless so it is difficult to be sure exactly how many there are.

They are all in a 2.5 gallon tank with no filter and no heater (probably about 60-65 F in the tank).

Here is a picture of one of the babies up against the glass.

I would like to feed them something smaller than brine shrimp. I'm not sure that they can eat the shrimp t their current size. Has anyone had any luck keeping a culture of paramecium or something really small?

Any ideas what I could use to feed them that is smaller than baby brine shrimp?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Microworms might work, and are very easy to culture.


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## TarantulaGuy (Apr 15, 2009)

Congrats! I'm looking into getting these beautiful little fish this fall, what are your thoughts on keeping them? I was thinking about setting up a 20L for them. Any pics of the proud parents?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Cool. Pics of the parents? There is a local guy here that keeps the banded ones and he puts them in a mini fridge to fake a winter season and when they come out and warm back up they usually spawn.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Heya TG, the fish are surprisingly easy to care for, they need virtually no equipment at all to do well. The only caveat is they do not eat frozen/flake food. They *only* eat live food. Asukawashere has some okefenokee's as well. I think she has had some sort of success feeding them golden pearls but I don't think they eat them very much.

I'm not sure if they need a wintering period to breed, most sunfish species seem to, but I've read about other people spawning them continually without any specific mention to winter periods. That said my fish were kept in my basement for a few months where it got down to 55 ish so perhaps that counted as a winter period.

I'll have to clean the glass a bit for pics of the parents Aaron. The parents aren't quite as flashy as some of the ones I've seen online. I'm not sure if its the particular variety I have or if their full colors are still coming in.

I wonder if someone on the forum is keeping microworms. How do you handle them? Feeding the worms and harvesting for fish?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The best discussion of microworms I've seen is at The Skeptical Aquarist http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/microworms

Since I started following his tips of adding a little vinegar and salt to the growing medium, I find that the cultures last longer and do not smell as much.


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## TarantulaGuy (Apr 15, 2009)

Would they pick food off the surface? I breed flightless fruit flies (Drosophila) for a dart frog, I have some other fish that seem to like those, and they're easy to breed. They just don't sink into the water column. I'd love to see the tank you've got them housed in! Trying to do as much homework on them as I can before I get them. Thanks Zap,

-TG


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm not sure about the fruit flies. I've also got some flies (that I used to raise some praying mantises) I could try feed them. I have the melanogaster and the hyedi flies. So far I haven't been able to entice any of my fish to eat them, even my angel fish. 

Hatching brine shrimp is pretty easy, I'll take a picture of my setup. You can get the shrimp to hatch within about 12-16 hours (over night) if you keep a light bulb near them so it warms the water to 80-85F. Then turn off the light in order to keep them around for up to 2 days. You can even add more eggs after the first or second day and use the same water to hatch a second batch before you need to change the water.

I spend about 2 minutes changing the water every few days, the rest is just feeding them to the fish. 

As a net I use a nylon stocking that I snitched from my mother's draw when I went home last


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Oh also, I did some searching and found this picture. It is a baby pygmy okefenokee next to microworms. I think they might be too big...

I wonder if they would eat parameciums if I can figure out how to get a culture of them going, or if there is another tiny prey item they can eat?


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## asukawashere (Mar 11, 2009)

Congrats on the spawn! I couldn't ever get mine to breed—and I did lose several to a heater failure, and a few more around Sandy, so I only actually have one left now—but I did indeed have some success with getting golden pearls into them. The trick was to put a "trainer fish" in the tank—I used a Heterandria formosa male because they're small and not aggressive. The Heterandria would get excited over the addition of the pearls and start nibbling, the Elassoma would figure out that something was up and go poking around, and they'd get some pearls in them, too (this is, incidentally, the same tactic I use with many of my wild-caught specimens to teach them to eat dry foods). Mind you, golden pearls are mostly made of baby brine shrimp, and they have a tendency toward drifting in similar fashion. I never could get any other kinds of dry food into them...

On the other hand, Elassoma have shockingly big mouths and bigger tummies for their size. I also fed mine tubifex worms—and the little fish took down worms twice as long as them easily. ' Another option is the larvae of pantry moths and/or confused flour beetles (I don't know what makes them confused, exactly, but that's what they're called!)—every now and then they'll get into a package of cereal or something, and they make wonderful food (although if you keep them around too long they turn into pest bugs that infest more food)! The flour beetles actually enjoy taking up residence in jars of fish food if I accidentally leave them open—which doesn't actually bother me much, since I can then drop the larvae right into the tanks with the flakes LOL.

As for feeding tiny little fry, try starting a culture of infusoria. All you need is a container of water, a piece of lettuce, and a window (paramecia are included in the general term 'infusoria' but so are other protists).  Microworms are good if they can fit them in their mouths, but while they are very nutritious, they're also allegedly a bit too fatty to use exclusively for many fish species.

As a species found only in extreme southern states—mostly the gulf coast—Elassoma don't need the winter period like other sunfish (also, they're not terribly closely related to other species referred to as "sunfish"—they're from their own family, Elassomatidae, instead of Centrarchidae). Common aquarium centrarchids, like the black-banded sunfish (Enneacanthus chaetodon) and the bluegill (Lepomis gibbosus—more commonly kept in European aquaria, though I do have one) come from far more temperate climates, hence the need for a seasonal cool period.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Oh that is a pity. Sad to hear about your okes fate. Interesting trick with the elassoma. I did something similar with my baby angels. They only ate baby brine shrimp (up until they were quarter size). I moved them from the grow out tank to the main display tank where their parents and other adult angels live and the first day I fed the adults the babies started nibbling on bits of beef heart. They definitely do learn fast 

I'm quite surprised that the oke parents don't go after the babies (at least not yet). The only other fish I know of that doesn't eat its own species very often is guppies/livebearers. Too bad they don't readily eat flake food otherwise I think these little guys would be rather popular in the trade.

Unfortunately the males seem to hide more than the females. I'll try get a picture of them later when they decide to stop guarding the eggs.

Female Oke









Female Oke


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

> Elassoma gilberti is distinguished from its close relative E. okefenokee by possessing four pores in the preopercular (PO) canal on each side of the head and usually seven anal fin rays. Elassoma okefenokee has three PO pores and usually eight anal fin rays. Elassoma gilberti has slightly less deep body and slightly smaller dorsal and anal fins than E. okefenokee. Breeding females of E. gilberti often have blue dashes below and behind the eye, which are lacking in female E. okefenokee. Otherwise, the two species are almost identical or broadly overlapping in meristic, morphometric, and color features.


Do you think I have okefenokees or gilberti? I counted 8 rays but it also looks like it has markings behind its eyes.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I finally got a picture of 2 males.

They really are elusive compared with the females.










I think this is the father of the babies









Here is an update on the babies.

I saw several have finally eaten baby brine shrimp. They must have found something to eat in the riccia I have floating at the top of their tank. Also the parents had a second batch of fry.

Last week:









Today:


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Wow these guys are prolific! I have counted at 30 babies from at least 4 generations. There should be many more that I didn't count. I estimate the entire baby population is around 60-100 babies at the moment. It seems the parents breed every 3-5 days.

Simply amazing little fish! The babies seem to grow sort of slowly though, it looks like the first batch can only eat about 11 baby brine shrimp even though they have been around for at least 2 weeks. 

I think the low 68F temperature is slowing down their growth significantly. It will probably take 6-8 months to grow to adulthood at this rate.

I hope in a few weeks/months I can sell a few of these little gems to increase their #s in the hobby. Simply wonderful little buggers


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Any chance of you being at the NEC convetion in April?
I have been interested in keeping them!

-Gordon


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm hoping I can go but April is towards the end of my final semester for my masters degree so I'm not sure I will have time.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

Maybe another time then, I wish you luck and certain you will complete the last courses!
Keep me in mind if you'll have any available in the future.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I can probably post you some in a kordon breather bag later on when they mature a bit and the weather warms.

Keep in mind they need freshly hatched brine shrimp every day. They don't eat dry or frozen.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

I have about 25 live cultures going of misc. inverts, daphnia etc.
Plenty of snacks to be had. Hoping to add to the tanks this spring/summer as I'm going to need live foods for some projects! Touch base with me whenever, will have a booth at the NEC convention, so if you happen to be available that weekend come by.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

When is the NEC weekend again?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

A little update on my babies. I transferred about 30 of them to a separate 2.5g tank. I raised the temp to 75F. It should allow me to raise them faster than in the 68F tank. Here is a picture of one. You can see that it has grown from the first few pictrues.

03-17-2013









02-25-2013









02-19-2013


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

That's sweet! I am impressed that they are surviving so well thus far.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I know right?! 

I think it is because I am using riccia as cover for the fry. Riccia always seems to be a safe haven for growing microscopic creatures. There are always tiny things darting around in riccia clumps. I think this is what the fry are eating for the first few days until they are able to eat brine shrimp. Once they are on brine shrimp they are easy to raise, just like any other baby fish.

Also, I transferred a total of about 100 babies to the separate 2.5g tank. I've got the temperature at 75F in there for the moment. I think I still have about 30 or so babies in the parent's tank. I just didn't want the older fry to eat up all the infusoria growing in the riccia preventing newly hatched fish from surviving the first few days. Also, I wonder if the parents will stop breeding once a certain population size is reached.

I've got about 100-140 total. Hopefully I can start sharing these little gems with people when they grow up a bit more. They aren't too common in the trade or in the wild, but they are certainly interesting and perfect for nano planted aquariums.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Another update on the babies.

They are growing well. They seem to be growing faster now. Maybe it is because they can eat more shrimp than when they were smaller.

Also, I noticed that there weren't as many new tiny babies in the parent's tank. I think either the older babies were eating the new fry or the parents weren't spawning anymore. As soon as I removed all the older babies 3 days later I saw dozens of new fry. So it seems that when the babies grow to a certain size (about 1 cm long) they prevent new babies from growing.

Here is the newest pic of one of the babies along with several others when they were younger.

03-31-2013









03-17-2013









02-25-2013









02-19-2013


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I just got word that these fish are Elassoma evergladei not Okefenokees as they were sold to me.

I will change the title.

A new forum I found which identified my pygmies:
http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/13370-what-species-of-pygmy-sunfish-do-i-have/


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Thought I'd give an update on the fishies. 

I dosed fenben to kill the hydras. Unfortunately I forgot I dosed it and the stuff stayed in the water for about 5-7 days. When I changed the water yesterday I noticed there were 10 dead babies 

I still have a lot left though. I'll post pics soon, they are growing much faster now.


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## sonicpath (Sep 28, 2012)

nice


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Here are a few more photos of my little fish.

Their babies are about half an inch now as well (I'll add some pics one of these days).

Hope you enjoy!

These are some pictures of one of the males, he has a nest in the riccia at the top.



























And one of the nice gravid females


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

New pics of the babies (along with old ones for comparison)!

05-14-2013









03-31-2013









03-17-2013









02-25-2013









02-19-2013


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