# Florite vs ADA.



## Kharn (Nov 9, 2004)

Hi everyone 

Im wondering if you can share your oppinions of these 2 substrates.
Ex how hard/easy is it to succes with these 2 brands if everything else is ok that is CO2 and WC fertilizing / enough Light 

You see i just purchased some bags of flourite red for my new 125 g tank.
At the time i bought the Flourite i did not know that ADA was going to be available in the UK. Sigh ...

As i havent opend the Flourite bags yeet its still possible for me to sell them.
But if its just as good as ADA Powersand/Amazonias then ill just go ahead and use it hehe.

As i understand the ADA system is a 2 component substrate that is Powersand and on top of that some Amazonas soil.

And flourite as i have gatherd works fine on its own if i just add Peat /mulm and fertilizes the water colum. ( i know that the WC also needs fertilizing with ADA )

Im still a beginner at this wonderfull hobby and i really need the advise on witch way to go here as Aqua Essentials in the UK turns in the Order to ADA the 31 Oktober 

Best Regards Jimmy From Sweden


----------



## omega (Apr 1, 2004)

If your heart is set on getting the ADA substrate system then my advise to you is to stick with only the Aquasoil. Forget all the Powersand and other additives. The Aquasoil Amazonia will give you 99% (if not 100%) of the results you hear people talk about.

Also, if this is a big tank, then you can save some money by mixing the Aquasoil with some other inexpensive substrate. Lay the "other" substrate on the bottom and top with the Aquasoil.


----------



## James.......... (Feb 8, 2004)

omega said:


> If your heart is set on getting the ADA substrate system then my advise to you is to stick with only the Aquasoil. Forget all the Powersand and other additives. The Aquasoil Amazonia will give you 99% (if not 100%) of the results you hear people talk about.
> 
> Also, if this is a big tank, then you can save some money by mixing the Aquasoil with some other inexpensive substrate. Lay the "other" substrate on the bottom and top with the Aquasoil.


Nothing I have read about ADA substrates supports either of these statements. Power Sand is in integral component of an ADA substrate. If you doubt this, ask Jeff Senske of ADG about it.

I also wouldn't mix Aqua Soil with any other substrate material. A layer on top of another substrate will eventually disappear as it becomes integrated into the substrate bed following planting/replanting.

One thing that might work is to silicone in some glass strips into the base of the tank and then using, for example, Flourite or some other substrate in the rear portion and using ADA substrate in the front of the tank. This is a good way to terrace an aquascape. If you want to hide the glass strips (the portion that will be above the front area of the substrate, just glue on some cork tiles or strips with silicone. Coir could aslo be used. Either one can accept plants like Java Fern and/or Anubias held in place using pins. Plant roots can grow into coir and mosses attach readily to cork.

Flourite works great all by itself, even better if you place a few hanfulls of milled peat moss on the bottom of the tank. I recently set up a 10 gallong tank for a beginner using Power Sand / Aqua Soil Amazonia and both she and I are amazed at the first month's growth of some very sensitive Crypts. Nothing melted and all are growing well. This is her first aquarium ever, so we are both relieved.

James Purchase
Toronto


----------



## omega (Apr 1, 2004)

James.......... said:


> Nothing I have read about ADA substrates supports either of these statements. Power Sand is in integral component of an ADA substrate. If you doubt this, ask Jeff Senske of ADG about it.


Yeah, we heard the same thing about Seaschem products among other "lines of products" in this hobby and elsewhere. Use all of our products or your plants die. Our products are also unfriendly towards competitors. Combine and your house will explode. You also get horrible acne. So don't do it.

But seriously and jokes aside, the best argument I can make is for you to set up a tank with only Aquasoil and see if you don't get the same results within the first few weeks/month that you've seen in your friend's Aquasoil+Powersand tank. The potency of the ADA substrate system, I BELIEVE, is in the Aquasoil...not the Penac, not the Powersand, not the bacteria, not whatever else it is that you add to the tank. Why spend money on things that, if it did contribute anything, then it would be a few percents. Is that few percents justify the cost? Yeah, this hobbyist doesn't think so.

Ok so where is this all from? Well, you can choose from either my anecdotal experience or from my anecdotal inference from other's reports on the use of this product.  I'll ignore my own observations/experience since we obviously know what that is already. Many people (on this forum) report TREMENDOUS difference within 24-48 hours of switching to the Aquasoil+Powersand. 24-48 hours is too short a time period for the micronutrients contained with the Powersand to do anything to contribute to that growth. I don't buy it. Someone measure it and prove me wrong or something. So whatever did it is in the Aquasoil immediately surrounding the plants.

Not very strong argument? Yup, I agree which is why I said earlier to do it yourself for the best argument....until I find someone more eloquent to argue for me. 



> I also wouldn't mix Aqua Soil with any other substrate material. A layer on top of another substrate will eventually disappear as it becomes integrated into the substrate bed following planting/replanting.


Key word here is "eventually". I am primarily concerned with start-up period. "Eventually" can be many months before they mix. And even when they mix, that doesn't mean the "potency" disappears. That goes double for the initial period as well. So what if the two substrate mixes? Does Aquasoil detects competitors and decides to pout and grimace and call Mommy? :mrgreen: If not, then why not combine with other filler to save money, when a huge tank is under consideration?

The only concern for me would be to find a filler that fits with the Aquasoil appearance (color and stuff...).


----------



## James.......... (Feb 8, 2004)

> Ok so where is this all from? Well, you can choose from either my anecdotal experience or from my anecdotal inference from other's reports on the use of this product.  I'll ignore my own


Annecdotal evidence is worth every penny you pay for it.



> Someone measure it and prove me wrong or something. So whatever did it is in the Aquasoil immediately surrounding the plants.


Why not run some tests yourself? Why do so many people leave things like this to others to (hopefully) do the dirty work for them?



> Key word here is "eventually". I am primarily concerned with start-up period. "Eventually" can be many months before they mix. And even when they mix, that doesn't mean the "potency" disappears. That goes double for the initial period as well. So what if the two substrate mixes? Does Aquasoil detects competitors and decides to pout and grimace and call Mommy? :mrgreen: If not, then why not combine with other filler to save money, when a huge tank is under consideration?
> 
> The only concern for me would be to find a filler that fits with the Aquasoil appearance (color and stuff...).


Long term appearances can be very important. I once set up a tank using Seachem Onyx, a very fine grained neutral grey substrate. Under the layer of Onyx, I placed some white pumice. It didn't take long for my substrate to turn from dark neutral grey to "salt and pepper" as the pumice came to the top. It didn't affect the growth of the plants, but it didn't look very good (at least not to me).

Saving money can be very important, but you have to decide where you ought to cut corners. A substrate is a long term investment, not something you will want to have to replace every six months. But my earlier suggestion of using a longitudinal glass barrier siliconed into place will give you the option of using a less expensive substrate in the rear portion of an aquascape. In my case, I use a medium grey/brown granite gravel sized similarly to Flourite in the back section (6" deep) with pure Flourite (3") in the front. I placed a quantity of Dupla Laterite G beneath the granite gravel in the rear section and a few handfulls of milled peat under the Flourite. The granite gravel was dirt cheap (around $9.00 CDN / 50 lbs) and the Flourite looks (and works great) in the front.

It isn't always about finding the "cheapest" way to do something. If you do it correctly in the first place, it will last for many years.

James Purchase
Toronto


----------



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

omega said:


> ...not the Penac, ...


NOT the Penac??

But how does one then harmonize the water without it?:biggrin:


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I've never seen a plant sing in harmony.

I have found a source for Amazonia ADA aquasoil like material.
Runs about 210 X less expensive.

I'll probably "out the product" in a few weeks to everyone.

I have some ADA soil and have this product and am doing two tanks to see how they both perform.

I do find it extremely curious that folks were willing to look into what and why Dupla products worked and found cheaper alternatives and that a lot of things were baloney, but take ADA products on such loyal blind faith these days.

No one is trying to figure what causes what, what they are made out of, or looking for sources. What happened?

Anyway, you can use Aquasoil alone with EI and forgo the Powersand.
When the owner is asked a direct question from me about what is in power sand, and evades it with a smart ass joke, I'll figure out what is in it.

Pumic, peat and a general terrestrial fertilizer. I'm not sure why he didn't just say that or say I can't tell you(company secret) etc or use SeaChem's approach.

Just like the material I'm testing it against, folks will find out what it is eventually and pay much less.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------



## thatguy (Oct 16, 2005)

ive compared ada soil to fluorite with toninas and a few other harder to grow plants.. in fluorite they withered away and melted...after placing the damaged plants in ada topsoil, they took off in growth and came back to life. no effort, no ferts. just moderate light and co2 via a glass/ceramic diffusor. 

i look forward to trying tom barrs soil. 210x cheaper is good.


----------



## Little (Oct 18, 2005)

Laith said:


> NOT the Penac??
> 
> But how does one then harmonize the water without it?:biggrin:


Did you use penac for once? [-(

I guess not.
What is funny with Penac, is that it is the only product, that it isn't ADA who's making it, and they're not having much benefit on it. However, it is funny to see that in every one of its tanks Penac is used, and sometimes, people don't even see the Penac Wasserkat...
I guess there have also been in the past years, little problems with penac's licence: but Amano keeps on using it...
In france it has also been debatted plenty of time, and some have made their experiment( on DOC for exemple:http://www.forumaqua.com/article-424-test-plocher-doc-dissolved-organic-carbon.html must read french...  ). Some are also criticizing the "harmonizing" or whatever... Often those haven't experienced it...


----------



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

For those that don't read French, the article linked to above describes a test made to determine whether the Penac system reduces Dissolved Organic Carbon, which the author describes as being a major detriment to healthy aquariums (and I tend to agree with him). The test was made in 6 1l bottles, three using the Penac and three without. All six were filled from water from his Tang tank that he had determined contained a certain amount of DOC. After 15 days, the DOC level in the Penac bottles was lower than that of the control bottles. The bottles had a bit of substrate and what looks like heavy aeration; no plants or anything else.

While the results are interesting, I still have a hard time giving any credibility to a product that sells itself as follows:

"The plocher™-technology is a method of activates living processes through catalytic impulses with the purpose of stimulating the self-healing capacity of organisms and life forms. In this way disrupted systems may be returned to a balanced condition. The technology can also be used to enhance certain technical, industrial processes.

The plocher™-technology does not rely on electrical, magnetic, chemical, thermic or radiactive energy. It uses native vibrational impulses...

...The PLOCHER Apparatus makes it possible to modulate the energetic matrix of selected substances onto other (organic or anorganic) substances.

The process is referred to as "transfer of information."

The transfer of information is based on the principle of vibration or oscillation and is done with the ROLAND PLOCHER Apparatus...."

And this is great: "In the last decades there has been a growing awareness of the existence of energy forms other than the known ones of electricity, magnetism, radioactivity, chemical and thermal energy.

It is one of these "other" forms of energy which is utilized by Roland Plocher in his Energy System. It appears to be omnipresent in Nature. Presently it rather belongs in the faculty of theoretical physics or _philosophy_ (my italics) than in the exact sciences.

The energy itself is assumed to have a minute wavelength and can therefore not be measured by instruments currently available to science, but the results derived from its practical application can be measured, quantified and replicated."

http://www.plocher.de/english/index2.php

The fact that Amano uses this stuff is, in my opinion, a detriment to his image...

On the other hand, I have a certain admiration for Mr. Plocher who has somehow managed to make a business out of what appears to be a process and philosophy that can be likened to alchemy.

Nowhere on the site is DOC mentioned by the way...


----------



## omega (Apr 1, 2004)

James.......... said:


> Why not run some tests yourself? Why do so many people leave things like this to others to (hopefully) do the dirty work for them?


*laughs* You got me there. :mrgreen: But to be honest, I have to admit my own inadequacies here. I wouldn't know how to test or what to test for. What am I measuring? How do I measure it? And how much is it going to cost me? So I am terribly embarassed that I am not that talented in that department.









So the best I can offer is my anecdotal experience which, as you put it, is "worth every penny." :mrgreen: I say when you set up your next tank, do it without the Powersand and see if you can notice any difference. I honestly can't. If Powersand and Aquasoil really needed one another to work, then the exclusion of one should not give me the results I saw. Now try using Powersand alone without the Aquasoil. I am confident that you will not see the results that you and I are acquainted with.



> Saving money can be very important, but you have to decide where you ought to cut corners. A substrate is a long term investment, not something you will want to have to replace every six months. It isn't always about finding the "cheapest" way to do something. If you do it correctly in the first place, it will last for many years.


I don't know how much the ADA substrate system cost elsewhere in the world, but it is "substantial" to this hobbyist in the United States (much more so for you in Canada I would imagine eh?). A bit too excessive for me to not sit here and justify its costs and see where and IF POSSIBLE for me to "cut corners". I obviously won't go for cheaper things if it doesn't work. Come on. Who would? Costs matter; and in this case, it's a big hinderance, considering the other purchases necessary for a nice planted tank.



Laith said:


> NOT the Penac?? But how does one then harmonize the water without it?:biggrin:


[smilie=u: *laughs* [smilie=u: But I do agree with you that the fact that Amano uses the Plocher system does make me weary of his image. I hear that Aquajournal devoted an entire year to exploring the Plocher system. I wonder if it's on the net somewhere in English or one of the other languages that Google can translate?

[QUOTE=plantbrain]I do find it extremely curious that folks were willing to look into what and why Dupla products worked and found cheaper alternatives and that a lot of things were baloney, but take ADA products on such loyal blind faith these days. No one is trying to figure what causes what, what they are made out of, or looking for sources. What happened?[/QUOTE]
Now now Tom. Let's be fair. Aquasoil does do amazing things. No doubt about it. I don't know how and frankly I'm too stupid to find out why or how it works. And the product does get its share of skepticism. A search of the APC archives will prove that. Of course some were angry that questions were raised at all but we put those people in their places. "Blind faith" is not something people on this forum put up with. But you and I both know the Aquasoil works. How? Well, you can answer that MUCH BETTER than me. 

I hope you do reveal the Aquasoil substitute. I am eager to test it out. Hey! Let's do it now! :mrgreen: I would love to give it a try next to my Aquasoil Amazonia tank.


----------



## James.......... (Feb 8, 2004)

Laith said:


> ...The PLOCHER Apparatus makes it possible to modulate the energetic matrix of selected substances onto other (organic or anorganic) substances.
> 
> The process is referred to as "transfer of information."
> 
> The transfer of information is based on the principle of vibration or oscillation and is done with the ROLAND PLOCHER Apparatus...."


I have done a fair bit of research into the Plocher System, and to be honest I am no more "informed" now than I was at the beginning of my search. All of the material available on the WEB relies too much on annecdotal evidence and there is no logical scientific info available.

I'm not a nuclear physics guru, and I'll admit that there might be forces in the universe that I don't know anything about, but while the promises made by Plocher Technology sound inviting, its too close to "snake oil" for my taste.

I'll admit to having ordered Penac W and Penac P and the Penac Sticks from ADG and am looking forward to receiving them and giving them a try in a tank. However, there are a large number of "varieties" of Penac W and it would require a major chunk of change to acquire them all. They all seem to (or at least, claim to) increase the availability of Oxygen in an aquarium and thus facilitate the activities of aerobic bacteria in a tank. A wet/dry filter will do that (and for less money). Proper maintenance and avoiding overstocking a system with fish helps a lot too.

Penac W eau douce (Fench for fresh water) is said to be the basic product which in tandem (symbiosis) with Plocher Sticks is supposed to bring "harmony" to an aquatic system. Then there is Plocher eaux de surface (French for Surface Water) and Plocher eaux souterraines (French for Ground or Well Water), depending upon your water source. Plocher anti vases is supposed to reduce sediment (so will a vacuum setup) and Plocher Stabilization which is claimed to act against excessive algae. And don't forget Plocher anti-nitrates and Plocher anti-phosphates to take care of those "nasty" excess nutrients (ever try to grow plants without two major macro-nutrients??? It doesn't work very well.).

Granted, all of the Plocher materials use relativley inert substrates (quartz, dolomite or calcium carbonate) so there is really no danger in their use in an aquatic system. Their "magic" lies in the "vibrational energy" which has been transeferred to them. I remain sceptical if such a transfer is even possible, but I remain open to the possibility.

To me, the wasserkat is the most troublesome part of the Plocher System. Returning "spring like vitality" to a municipal water supply sounds attractive, but could be achieved just as easily by judicious use of a reverse osmosis filter and a bottle of R/O Right (again, for far less money than a Wasserkat). No amount of "vibrational energy" is going to remove industrial residuals from your water. It might remove tarnish from your jewellery, but we don't make much use of either silver or gold in an aquarium. The Canadian price of the small wasserkat is $ 429.00 CDN (from a price quote provided by Symbionature Inc., the Canadian importer of the device). The large Wasserkat costs $ 945.00 CDN and you could buy one kick ass R/O Deionization system for that kind of money. Plus, you could get yourself ALL of the required electronic monitoring devices to monitor the quality of the product water to make sure that the system is actually working.

For some, the issue of the large amount of waste water vs product water when using a reverse osmosis system is important, but my water supply is Lake Ontario, and not likely to run dry any time soon (unless the US starts diverting large amounts of the Great Lakes to midwestern agriculture, and that's always a possibility). I know from experience what "spring water" is like, both for general household use and for its effect in an aquarium, but it is far from devoid of minerals. As aquatic gardeners, we don't really want water to have no mineral content.

There are many routes to success in this hobby, but I doubt that the Plocher energy System is a viable alternative for many of us.

James Purchase
Toronto


----------



## James.......... (Feb 8, 2004)

Sorry for the double post!


----------



## Little (Oct 18, 2005)

Laith said:


> The fact that Amano uses this stuff is, in my opinion, a detriment to his image...
> 
> On the other hand, I have a certain admiration for Mr. Plocher who has somehow managed to make a business out of what appears to be a process and philosophy that can be likened to alchemy.
> 
> Nowhere on the site is DOC mentioned by the way...


I don't think Amano would spend money where he doesn't need: in terms of economy he's giving money to Plocher.
It is not because DOC are not mentionned by Plocher, that Penac doesn't have effect on DOC: the link given seems to show the contrary. No one can say that Penac only has effect on DOC: DOC are one of the chemical stuff that is measurable for us.
Secundly I do believe that ADA has great possibilities of biochemical analysis, that planted aquarium hobbyist, alone, can hardly have; I also believe that they have done the job on Penacs.
I also believe that Amano wants to use all the tools that he need to achieve the final results he wants.


----------



## James.......... (Feb 8, 2004)

Little said:


> I don't think Amano would spend money where he doesn't need: in terms of economy he's giving money to Plocher.


The source of Amano's fame lays with his skills as an aquascaper and as a photographer. Before TFH published his 3 Nature Aquarium books, nobody in North America had even heard of him. That isn't to imply that he is an overnight wonder - his skills obviously took time to develop. Holding a book full of large format photographs of beautiful aquascapes brought many people to the realizatiom that ART plays a large part in setting up and maintaining an aquarium.

As far as teaching people HOW to grow aquatic plants, I think that Tom Barr has done far more than Amano. But I don't ever recall having seen a "Tom Barr Aquascape". Being a good aquatic gardener is not the same thing as being an artist. Amano is an artist.

I can't say why Amano flogs the Plocher System - I've never been able to obtain any of the Nature Aquarium World issues which featured it. According to Jeff Senski, licensing restrictions on the technology prevent ADG from obtaining the Wasserkat (Penackat, Plocherkat) for North Americans, and the only ADA catalogue I have access to (2005) doesn't indicate that ADA carries anything other than Penac W, Penac P and Penac Sticks.

But as I've pointed out, Symbionature Inc. from Quebec DOES import Plocher System products into Canada and I assume will sell to Americans via mail order.

IF that's important. Somehow, I still doubt it.

All the technology in the world won't help you if you lack the basic skills (or the interest in learning what those skills are). Then again, that's what keeps aquarium maintenance companies in business. Many people merely want something "pretty" in their homes and are content to let someone else worry about keeping it "pretty".

James Purchase
Toronto


----------



## Little (Oct 18, 2005)

James.......... said:


> IF that's important. Somehow, I still doubt it.
> 
> All the technology in the world won't help you if you lack the basic skills (or the interest in learning what those skills are). Then again, that's what keeps aquarium maintenance companies in business. Many people merely want something "pretty" in their homes and are content to let someone else worry about keeping it "pretty".
> 
> ...


First I'm sorry for the first post: I'm a little bit out of the subject 

I never wrote, nor said, that we couldn't make a beautiful planted tank without Plocher's tools. We can do beautiful planted tank without aquasoil, without Power Sand, without ECA, without Phyton Git, without ADA ligthing, without all of that.
I guess that Amano has not done what he has done alone: if he has done something no one else has done before, it is surely because he has got an artistic sense.
But I believe that we mustn't underestimate the technical work part that ADA has done(because i think that amano was not the only one to work on it at ADA...  ), to make what amano is doing today. Even for Amano, we can see the clear progression, between his first works(NA book 1 for exemple) and what he has done later(NA book 2&3).

If we consider Amano as a painter who is progressing and getting better, we could say that he has great skills in it, but we could also say that the color painting and material he uses are also in constant evolution.
Art is also detail... No?


----------



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

I've never used the Plocher system so I won't comment on it. However, I don't believe ADA, ADG or Amano have ever said it is necessary to grow plants. If you believe in the technology that the system relies on, give it a try. If you don't, then let it go.

As far as the benefits of PowerSand, I must take some issue with what has been said. Same goes for AquaSoil. Here's my take on it.

There is no product out there that is "magic". You can buy whatever product you want, but if you don't give plants what they need to grow, it will do you no good.

That being said, ADA, ADG and Amano have not said that you need to use all of their products or your plants won't grow. They also haven't said there are no other products out there (including DIY kinds) that will get you the same results. What I understand they have said is that their products will provide your plants what they need to grow.

PowerSand is meant to provide a nutrient storehouse for your aquarium. It contains (from what I remember) pumice stone, peat and charcoal as its major components. PowerSand Special has added bacteria and, perhaps, the ratios of the major components is different than PowerSand. AquaSoil is essentially baked clay.

When combined, the result is a pretty darn good substrate. It is porous to encourage bacterial growth that is important for nutrient recycling. Cation exchange capacity is pretty high. It provides the appropriate pH at the substrate solution level. It provides for easy root penetration and prevents compaction. And, it looks darn nice.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not telling you to go and buy ADA products. If you want and can find the materials, go ahead and do it yourself. However, if you're like me and have little time, I can tell you that ADA does make a fine substrate for our aquariums. And, yes, I think you should use PowerSand and AquaSoil together.


----------



## random_alias (Nov 7, 2005)

Under ideal tank conditions (light, Co2, ferts, etc all taken care of), I would say that the mineral content of a substrate isn't critical. Most plants can get all they need from a fertile water column. 

So, IMO, safety, appearance and ease of use are the main factors in a substrate. Both Aquasoil and Flourite are safe and non toxic, so that isn't an issue. The two substrates have very different appearances and IMO that should be main factor in choosing one over the other. AFA ease of use, Flourite is heavy. It plants well and handles siphoning well. Aquasoil is lighter, even easier than Flourite to plant in and a little more likely to get caught in a strong siphon. 

Aquasoil is more round than Flourite. It rolls easier for aquascaping. The grain size is very uniform. Flourite chips vary a lot in size, shape and color. So IMO these two substrates have tradeoffs.

I have a 55 g 100% Flourite. I just purchased enough Aquasoil and Power Sand Special to redo it if I like but am instead using the Aquaoil as the substrate in my new smaller tanks. I like the look and the "feel" of the Aquasoil better. But the Flourite would be my preference in a grow out tank since it's easier to dig around in, rooting and uprooting, etc. 

Your decision is one of Form vs function. It should be based on what YOU like, not what you think your plants will like. They'll love either substrate so the choice between the two should be based on human factors.

AFA growing plants, consider it a toss up. Pick what your eye and hands like best.


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

James.......... said:


> But I don't ever recall having seen a "Tom Barr Aquascape". Being a good aquatic gardener is not the same thing as being an artist. Amano is an artist.
> James Purchase
> Toronto


Plenty of folks have seen my scapes and I've had them on the web here and there. Folks right click the crap out them, that also occurs here and it's a BAD thing to do with other people's photo's.
I'm suprized Art/APC allows it without permission.
SFBAAPS members recently saw me do a nice 50 gal with some unique wood.
I'll do another for a member in the middle of the month and I am going to doa 1200 gal 12x4x4 ft tank later this Dec-Jan and have 350gal that's well over a year old now and many smaller tanks.

I suppose I can't be too bad at scaping. 
I have a nice pic of a tank with an offensive piece of driftwood just for the type of folks who think I'm all science and no art.
And I just might use it! hehe

Amano does a lot of scapes, but the reality is a method does not mean the scape is good, nor the scape is a reflection of the method.

Folks generally do not add enough CO2.
The substrate are not seeded with mulm, folks add too much light. 
Ferts in the substrate do not last forever.

I will just tell folks publicly what the Aqua soil is and then folks can use it till they a blue in the face for nearly 100x less.

It'll take alittle while yet.
I do not want to ship stuff, I make lots of $ from my real jobs, so I have little motivation. So may as well tell folks. I'm trying to find a good vendor and a good product and one that is cheap. We already have dark grey Pro league Soilmaster, much like Turface but a better color. That's a Flourite/Onyx replacement. We need an ADA replacement and the weight will not be an issue.

I also have a nice method for plant extractable PO4 and other nutrients from any sediment we test in wetland research studies(we use dilute acid called Truog's that mimics the same H+'s that the plants typically put out in the rhizosphere).
No, I'm not going to do much more than a quick sampling(so no big peer reviewed paper), so I'll get a good idea precisely what is present both in the short term dissolved into solution and that which is loosely bound as well.

This takes about few hours so it's not that big of deal for the test.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Art_Giacosa said:


> I've never used the Plocher system so I won't comment on it. However, I don't believe ADA, ADG or Amano have ever said it is necessary to grow plants. If you believe in the technology that the system relies on, give it a try. If you don't, then let it go.
> 
> As far as the benefits of PowerSand, I must take some issue with what has been said. Same goes for AquaSoil. Here's my take on it.
> 
> ...


Don't have a big one Art, but........... I agree with what you said!
Haha

But the cheapy folks out there do want to look into DIY.
Anyway, SeaChem or a local maker will step up to the plate at some point after the DIY gets going and the market develops more in the USA.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> I'm suprized Art/APC allows it without permission.


Tom, APC cannot make determinations whether something as simple as "right click copying" constitutes copyright infringement. As a result, it is not prohibited. If you have found a use that you feel does infringe on your copyright, you need to contact that person directly.

Thanks.


----------



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Don't have a big one Art, but........... I agree with what you said!


 LOL! I won't let it go to my head, Tom.


----------



## MiamiAG (Jan 13, 2004)

random_alias said:


> Under ideal tank conditions (light, Co2, ferts, etc all taken care of), I would say that the mineral content of a substrate isn't critical. Most plants can get all they need from a fertile water column.


In my experience, root feeders do better with a fertile substrate.


----------



## random_alias (Nov 7, 2005)

This should be a much simpler topic than it's turning out to be.

When people ask about Aquasoil, there often seems to someone waiting to play the Plocher card. We aren't talking about ADA's filtration systems. This is about Aquasoil and maybe Power Sand and how they compare to Flourite. Whether or not Plocher technology is a downfall is irrelevant to this topic and the discussion of that topic often leads to enough posts for the topic to warrant it's own thread.

Maybe a Plotcher-bash thread is in order so everyone can get that out of their system in an appropriate place.

Just a reminder:



> Hi everyone
> 
> Im wondering if you can share your oppinions of these 2 substrates.
> Ex how hard/easy is it to succes with these 2 brands if everything else is ok that is CO2 and WC fertilizing / enough Light
> ...


----------



## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

I have some anecdotal information to share. Listen, and listen well. For three years, I have been in college with my "big" tank back at home (55g) with flourite substrate. It was a gamble and most plants would not grow well under the care of my mother who was scared of fertilizing and did little more than add Flourish. The flora was composed of Hygrophila difformis, Ludwigia repens, Lysimachia nummularia, an old Anubias barteri var. nana, Hemianthus micranthemoides, Heteranthera zosterifolia, and Limnophila aquatica. It crashed several times with massive algae outbreaks.

Fast forward to this year, I upgraded my tank from a 55g to a 75g. With the benefits of being a DFW member, I got in on a big deal and filled my new tank lovingly with ADA Aquasoil and ADA Power Sand Special. Well, my mom still dabbles with the Flourish every so often but the tank, this time, in its first three months of running, has not had an algae outbreak. There have been no massive algae blooms. No problems at all, even when Hurricane Wilma hit and knocked out power for 7 days -- the plants were unphased. What is she growing now?:

Tonina sp. 'Belem'
Ranunculus papulentus
Rotala rotundifolia "Green"
Pogostemon helferi
Anubias barteri var. nana
Cryptocoryne wendtii "Green"
Rotala wallichii
Rotala sp. 'Nanjenshan'
Rotala macrandra
Ludwigia glandulosa
...and growing them by the bushel.

Furthermore, I am also using aquasoil to grow my more 'difficult' Cryptocorynes. The ones that just would not grow well in Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil no matter how long I waited, how I fertilized, etc even with the use of peat underneath for the acidity. I am now having success with emersed:

Cryptocoryne nurii
Cryptocoryne griffithii
Cryptocoryne longicauda
Cryptocoryne pygmaea

Not that you NEED aquasoil to grow these crypts or plants, but it has been pretty effortless doing so. I have been VERY happy with the substrate products and plan to use them whenever possible. Heck, it even brings down the pH for all those acid-water loving fish I like to keep such as Parosphromenus deissneri, Betta coccina, etc which I normally would not keep in a normal planted tank.

Ludwigia 'Pantanal' in Eco-Complete in Chicago tap water (GH 10-12) faded from brilliant pink to green to dead within a month, as well. All other plants (mostly Rotalas, Blyxa japonica, Ludwigia arcuata) were doing well.

Carlos


----------



## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

create a poll? since it looks like a 'dirt' discussion....:grin:


----------



## Little (Oct 18, 2005)

random_alias said:


> Maybe a Plotcher-bash thread is in order so everyone can get that out of their system in an appropriate place.


If people whom didn't used Plocher system did talk of it with little bit of wisdom, those who had used it and have studied it (for DOC for exemple) wouldnot have to write about it in a wrong thread.
Like I said before, I'm sorry for the first poster


----------



## SnyperP (Dec 10, 2004)

I've refrained from posting here because I have no experience with ADA substrates. Alot of people post about something they've never used before and I don't think it's fair. I think it goes the same for all the "Is ADA worth it posts".


----------

