# BBA Relapse - continue Excel overdose?



## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

I've recently had problems with BBA in my 24g which I tried to get rid of with overdosing Excel following the sticky posted here.

Well, after 4 days of overdosing by 2x - 3x the recommended initial dose it seemed to be working with the BBA getting wispier and turning pink/red - even my SAE's started to eat it! - great!

Today, I decided not to overdose again but just put in the recomended daily dose since I thought the tide had been turned and i didn't want to continue overdosing.

At the same time I've just started dosing dry ferts having put in some KNO3 and MP Phosphate, today i added trace and K2S04.

When I got home tonight, the BBA seemed to have recovered a bit (darker) but e.densa, which i'd added in to soak up some nutrients had shed lots of leaves which looked transparent and attracting the SAE's attention now instead of the BBA!










My HC looks like this:










Water chemistry is:

pH 6.7 
Nitrate <5 (still waiting for this to rise from dosing KNo3)
KH 5 
PO4 0.5 (rising, aiming for 1 ppm) 
Co2 30 ppm 
Ammonia and Nitrite 0

Now, should I revert back to overdosing or what?

During dosing my fish - 3 x SAE, 3 x Otto and 6 x Amano Shrimp have shown no signs of any adverse effect.

Trouble with overdosing at the rate I am is that Exel is expensive in the UK - £6 (US$12) for 100ml from my LFS!

any advice greatly appreciated!


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Before answering your question, let's look at what could be causing the BBA to appear in large quantities in the first place...

Most algae appear because the plants aren't getting the nutrients they need. By nutrients we mean *all* nutrients: light, CO2, macros and micros, in that order. So, how much light do you have over the tank? and what type?

The appearance of BBA tends to be caused by a lack of CO2, given that all the other nutrients are in good supply. I'd say that your CO2 levels are probably too low, despite what the chart says. The chart can be a good starting point but more often than not something in the tank is throwing off your KH and pH readings so the chart tends to indicate more CO2 than you actually have.

Two methods are used to try to get around false CO2 chart readings. The first is to *slowly* (and do this when you are around to see the results/reactions) increase the CO2 injected into the tank until you start seeing fish at the surface "gasping". Then turn the CO2 down a notch.

The second method is to take some of your tank water out and let it sit for 24/48 hours and measure its pH. An indicator of a good CO2 level is when the pH in the tank is 1 step lower than this pH (ie 7.5 to 6.5).

There is a third method which is currently being tested by Hoppy using a permanent CO2 checker in an innovative way. You can find more info on that in this forum.



> Nitrate <5 (still waiting for this to rise from dosing KNo3)


Don't!

Please do not use your tank water to test your test kits. If you know you're adding for example 10ppm of NO3 to your tank and your test kit still shows <5ppm, it is your *test kit* which is wrong. Do not blindly trust your test kits and keep adding NO3 to your tank waiting for it to register on the kit. If you do want to test, then calibrate your test kit against a known concentration.

Once you get your nutrients to the level where none is lacking for the plants, then you usually need to manually remove (or in the case of BBA, try the Excel overdose) existing algae.

Moral of the story: Concentrate on growing the plants well, not combating the algae!


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## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks Laith for your advice, I've added the info below to the questions you asked:



> Most algae appear because the plants aren't getting the nutrients they need. By nutrients we mean *all* nutrients: light, CO2, macros and micros, in that order. So, how much light do you have over the tank? and what type?


I've got 4 x 36W T5 compacts on an overtank luminaire giving c. 5-6 WPG



> Two methods are used to try to get around false CO2 chart readings. The first is to *slowly* (and do this when you are around to see the results/reactions) increase the CO2 injected into the tank until you start seeing fish at the surface "gasping". Then turn the CO2 down a notch.


I've got 2 DIY Co2 bottles going feeding via a limewood diffuser into the filter intake, therefore, its difficult to adjust - finances won't allow me at the moment to get a pressurised system. Having the bubbles feed into the intake gives maximum diffusion into the water.



> The second method is to take some of your tank water out and let it sit for 24/48 hours and measure its pH. An indicator of a good CO2 level is when the pH in the tank is 1 step lower than this pH (ie 7.5 to 6.5).


My tap water has a pH of 7.8 - 8, however, I'm using ADA Aquasoil for the substrate which 'holds' the water between 6.7 to 6.9 so would this test still be valid if I removed the tank water? I'll try it anyway.



> There is a third method which is currently being tested by Hoppy using a permanent CO2 checker in an innovative way. You can find more info on that in this forum.


Just about to look for this after finishing this post



> Quote:
> Nitrate <5 (still waiting for this to rise from dosing KNo3)
> 
> Don't!
> ...


I'm not using my tank water to test my kits - why would I? If I did add 10ppm N03 and the plants used up 6 ppm because they are deficeint of it, my test would be reading less than 5 wouldn't it? It would only stay at 10 if there was no uptake by the plants.

I've only just started dosing (3 days) and am following the EI regime for my size tank and therefore I am assuming the plants are soaking up the nitrates at the moment. However, that's a good idea to check my test kit calibration - I'll do that tonight and see if the results are in fact valid or I'm getting false readings.



> Moral of the story: Concentrate on growing the plants well, not combating the algae!


Well, that's what I'm trying to do! However, I don't want the tank to be overgrown with BBA (especially as its almost impossible to remove manually :Cry: ) before I reach that point which will just make it harder to eradicate and probably result in removing all affected plants (pretty much my whole tank) and starting over again.

I had a similar problem with vallis recently where the leaves just became transparaent and withered away - does this indicate a specific deficeincy to you or do I just continue to follow the dosing regime hoping it solves the problem?

I keep reading that the best way to check your plants health is by looking rather than testing which is sound - well I've looked, they're not all healthy, I've got algae and withering densa/vallis so what should I do to try and diagnose and resolve?

I believe I'm following the basic groundrules by seeking to not limit the nutrients the plants need in terms of Co2, lighting and ferts. However, I'm not there yet and was just seeking advice on the loss of leaves on my densa and whether the 'recovery' of BBA could be attributable to the premature reduction in excel dosage.

I particularly hoped the densa leaf symptoms might point to something specific.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

swifty1 said:


> I particularly hoped the densa leaf symptoms might point to something specific.


Overdosing Excel damages Egeria densa, and may even kill it outright. I killed my vals with Excel, and they are less sensitive to it than Egeria is. I am really sold on the use of the ADA-style "drop checker" to verify that the tank has enough CO2 in the water. It has been working very well for me, and for the first time I think I know how much CO2 is really in the water - no guessing.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/do-it-yourself/32100-diy-drop-checker-2.html


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## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks for the info - just got home and more bare stems - certainly looks like it may be killed off.

What fast growers can I put in which are more resistant to Excel?

I think I'll get one of those drop-checkers (maybe not ADA though!


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

hhmmm... 6wpg is *a lot* of light and requires that you keep on top of all the other nutrients. Any deficiency in one of them will have a very rapid negative effect. I'd reduce the amount of lighting to at least half of that, especially as it is difficult to keep consistent levels of CO2 in the tank with DIY CO2 setups (even more so with this much lighting!).

By using the tank to test a test kit I meant the practice of adding lets say 10ppm of NO3, waiting a short period (less than an hour or two) and then testing. Plants will not take up more than 5ppm of NO3 in that short time period. A high rate of uptake in a well planted, sufficiently dosed tank would be around 4ppm a day...

My impression is that it's going to be very difficult to get a stable environment in terms of plant growth vs nutrients with that much light and DIY CO2. You'd have a better chance with lower lighting if you continue with DIY CO2 (and keep up with the dual bottles, regenerating them on an alternate cycle to try to keep the CO2 consistent).

How much KNO3 and PO4 are you dosing and how often?


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## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

I've switched off half the lights now so I've got c. 3WPG. 

I'm dosing c. 7 ppm KNO3 and 2 ppm P04 3 x a week 

I'm also adding 10ml trace (1 tablespoon in 500ml stock solution) and some K2So4 (have to check dosage) also 3x a week.

Is this OK?

The DIY Co2 bottles are already being replaced alternately and I appreciate the problems with the DIY instability - I'm going to have to bite the bullet at some stage and get pressurised Co2 (also fed up with the tube insert into the cap leaking after a period of time) but it's difficult at the moment.

Still dosing excel.....


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Your dosing sounds OK... perhaps up the NO3 to 10ppm doses. I dose about 12ppm 3x a week on tanks but these have pressurized CO2.

There's no harm in dosing a bit more as long as you keep up with 50% weekly water changes. This schedule of water changes will ensure that you will never accumulate more than 2x your weekly dosing and that doesn't take into account plant uptake (of course this doesn't quite hold true if you're overstocked with messy fish).

I think that with the reduced lighting intensity, alternating the DIY CO2 bottles to try to keep the CO2 consistent and your current dosing you should be on the right track! Remember: the hardest part about this is to have patience  . Changes to lighting/fert routines usually take two to four weeks to start to have a visible impact.

Are you dosing or overdosing the excel now? I'd go for a seven day overdose cycle starting with a water change. At the water change just put in the standard Excel dose and then every day after that dose 2-3x the recommended dose. Keep at it even if it looks like the BBA is dying off (a bit like antibiotics; go the whole course!  ).

You can use the PlantFinder on this site to get a list of stem plants. Most of them do fine with Excel.

Of course another option to getting rid of the BBA is manual removal, which for plants means cutting off the affected leaves.


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## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks Laith - that sounds sensible advice.

I'm still dosing excel and will up the KNO3 a bit. I've already trimmed a lot of leaves and thrown out a few plants as well - my biggest worry is the HC from which manual remoavl is almost impossible and its expensive to replace so will perservere with the excel, co2 and reduced lighting - fingers crossed. 

With regard to stem plants I've just received a couple of pots of ludwigia arcutia to add but which i don't think will soak up too much.

the densa and vallis don't seem to like the excel so I'll have a look to see what other fast growers I can add.

got a brown algae problem now on plants in my new 70g corner tank  so will post seperately for advice on this.


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## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

Thought I'd provide a quick update. 

The BBA has reduced significantly and is now limited mostly to a few stubborn tufts in my HC, together with some remnants on leaf edges (bit like someone's run a marker pen along the edge).

here's a piccy of my amano's who lined up nicely for me still working away on it in my HC:










I've still been dosing excel and maintaining the DIY Co2, although as of yesterday I acquired a bargain secondhand Dennerle pressurised Co2 system which is now in operation  so hope I can begin to get more stability and easier mantaenance of good Co2 levels.

I will start to reduce the excel dosing as soon as I've got the bubble rate right for adequate co2 diffusion, and have started off at about 1 bubble/3 seconds.

Apart from that the plants are doing OK, particularly my eustralis stellata which looks great:










The others look fairly healthy and the only other outstanding item is to check my nitrate test kit - any ideas how best to do this?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

It sounds like things are slowly turning around! 

You may need more than 1bubble every 3 seconds, depending on how you're diffusing the CO2 into your tank water. I've never been able to maintain good CO2 levels with anything less than several bubbles per second, irrespective of diffusion method.

Here's a thread with some calibration solution tips:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-kit-calibration-standards.html?highlight=NO3


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## swifty1 (Oct 23, 2006)

I think you're right on the bubble rate - I've not seen any drop in pH and I've increased the rate slightly.

If I try to establish the max Co2 rate by turning the bubble rate up until the fish start gasping - how long does this normally take for this to become evident - minutes or hours? Would my Amano shrimps be more sensitive than the fish (otto's and SAE's) and be affected before the fish were gasping? I just want to make sure I don't do anything foolish 

I've got one of the glass with ceramic disc diffusers with a spiral coil in the bottom. The fine mist of bubbles coming out of the disc is feeding into the filter intake but any that miss accumulate on the water surface.

I've got another glass diffuser secondhand which I've not used - I was told it was a JBL one but if so it is not a current product - anyway it consists of a vertical glass tube (like a straw) approx 10" long about 4mm dia which has a U bend at the bottom and then spirals back upwards around the outside of the straight section back up to the top. When i was cleaning this out there is a 'hole' in the bottom of the U tube which i originally thought was a crack or leak but now wonder whether this is deliberate for bubble counting or to let the water in? anybody know or advise whether its any good?

I can always connect it and see if it seems to work anybetter than the ceramic design I guess.

Thanks for the thread on KNo3 checking - I'll give that a go tonight as I'm still not seeing any nitrates despite dosing 12ppm 3x a week.

I also think I'll get a drop checker as a good visual guide for Co2 diffusion - I notice there is now a bulb type design available on e-bay as well as the amano style one:

eBay.co.uk: NEW!! Co2 Drop Checker-monitoring proper dosage of CO2 (item 250042739613 end time 01-Nov-06 16:27:25 GMT)


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