# pH issues!!!



## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

I have a 30 gallon tank

So, I went to the store and had my water tested. Apparently everything seemed okay except they told me my pH was way too high at 8.4. They say the tap water around here is at 10 but the pH will naturally drop down after a while in the tank. I have platys, a gourami, lampeye kilifish, oto cats, and neon tetras. They are telling me the pH is too high for these fish and I should add neutral regulater to bring it down. I already happen to have the stuff but I don't want to add anything if I don't have to. The guy was also shocked that I haven't done any major water changes except for just topping it off. He also says that something is driving up the pH and I have to take it out or it's just going to keep getting higher. It's been two months maybe, since I set up the tank with soil. The plants are great but now I'm concerned about the fish. When I set up the tank I added oyster grit to the soil because the city water here lacks hard water nutrients. I assume that's driving up the pH. I can't exactly take the oyster grit out of the soil 

I dont know what to do or if I should do anything at all. Is this an issue with these fish? Do I need to introduce something that will keep the pH lower? Is there something other than chemicals that I can do.. like add peat or maybe somekind of bogwood?


My second question is about the filter. I have this aquaclear HOB filter which is creating too much water agitation and a lot of noise and I dont feel like topping it off every few days just to keep the noise down. I want to get rid of the filter.:boxing: Can I do that with a 30 gallon? How do you know when it's safe to take it out? I also have some fuzzy light green algae on the glass and on the driftwood in the tank but it comes off easily. I do have water sprite I just introduced two weeks ago so I am not that concerned about more algae but if I take out the filter there will be no water circulation. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I have a betta in my 10g and many have said that 8.2(that's what the water is in the tank) is too high for them but he seems fine with it. I think as long as it's stable, that's the most important thing. Also, I have heard of others saying that their pH has dropped in their tanks after awhile but I have yet to see that in mine and it's been set up since July of last year. The pH in your tank just might stay at 8.4.

You could try using bogwood or peat but with the oyster shells in your soil, it probably won't even work but I could be wrong.

As for the filter, is it new? My AquaClear 20 was rather loud for about a month until crud started to build up in the impeller well. Now I can't even hear it anymore. I also have a baffle on the outflow of the filter. It helps to lessen the surface agitation a great deal but if you really want to remove the filter, I can't see why you couldn't remove it from your tank. I know a lot of people don't bother with filters or powerheads in their NPT's. For the longest time, I didn't have any water circulation in my 10g and once I had added the filter, I had noticed no difference with the algae that was in the tank so I don't think it would get worse if you removed the filter.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

While you may be able to remove the filter (eventually, if not now), you will still want some water circulation, so you will want to replace the filter w/ a power head or two positioned so that you have some surface agitation (it need not be noisy, but you want some nice ripples). Having ripples instead of a waterfall will lower your evaopration rate.

You do need to be fairly certain that you have your nitrogen fixing bacteria established in your sunstrate before removing the AC filter. One way to do this is to remove the filter but leave the media cartridge (or at least the foam pad) in the tank for a few days after you pull the rest of the filter (hanging near a PH would be ideal).

If your tap pH is really 10, I'd call the water department as it is illegal to dump water witht hat high of a pH in some places!

If the water comes down to the 7-8 range after sitting out for some time, it's probably gassing off the excessive Cl2 added before it is pumped to you. At any rate, having some driftwood or almond leaves or peat moss somewhere in the tank should help lower pH a bit.


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

No the filter is not new, I was referring to the noise from the water dropping back into the tank. I guess I could do that thing with the soda bottle. But I would just rather not have a filter there at all. So I will see if I can get something submersible powerhead.. They seem quite expensive though...

And yes, I live in the city where the water has a high pH of 10 when it comes straight from the tap. 

what kind of bogwood would pring downt he pH? Does anyone recommend against using the neutral regulator? I just don't really like the idea since I will just have to use it all the time and then buy more.

When I set up my next tank, should I not add the oyster grit? I was thinking about setting up a 10 gallon for german blue rams but if it turns out the same as my 30 gallon, the water will be too hard them.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Test your tap water to see what the GH is. If your GH is 8 or higher, you won't need to add anything to harden your water. It's also good to know what your KH is from the tap too. I think anything from 4 or higher is recommended to prevent your pH from fluctuating or crashing.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Ditto Red Rose. 
Before you get too far in to addressing pH issues be sure you understand the link between KH and pH, and find out just what the water company is adding to the water to make it so alkaline.

It may be that some sort of filter for your household may be better: _Remove_ stuff that is causing a problem, do not add more stuff.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Prometheus said:


> I have this aquaclear HOB filter which is creating too much water agitation and a lot of noise and I dont feel like topping it off every few days just to keep the noise down. QUOTE]
> 
> Ah, those noisey filters. They'll drive you crazy! And all that water agitation is probably removing carbon dioxide, which will drive up the pH. Plus, its hard to have floating plants, as they get trapped under the spillway.
> 
> If your plants are growing well, you really don't need a filter. However, if you want one, I recommend a small submersible. Wal-Mart has one for about $20. I bought it for my sister during a visit, because I couldn't stand the racket from her old filter. I'm sure that the fish in the tank were even more relieved than I was!


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

So maybe the filter is aerating the tank, removing CO2 and driving up the pH? I forgot about that. Another reason to remove that filter!! I think I will definately get rid of it and get something submersible. The plants are great! Maybe I can just use the filter to start up another tank. If I turn off that HOB filter, does the bacteria inside need the water circulation to survive or will it be okay for a few days? I may want to use it but probably not right away.

So I called the water supply company and found out that the tap water is soft and has a pH of 9.2 with a hardness of 1 grain per gallon (or 16 ppm). So it was okay that I added the oyster grit?

Is it necessary to do a water change too?

Thanks! :mrgreen:


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

just double checking here about removing the filter..

I have quite a few fish in there, about 7 lampeye kilifish, 22 neons, 1 gourami, 1 danio, 2 platys, and 4 otto cats. Oh- AND the platies had babies a few weeks ago. I think there are 4 of them.  Will it be okay to remove the filter even with that amount of fish? Is that considered overstocked?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

you can have a filter but don't cause water surface agitation.
Maybe a canister or a submerged powerhead type filter.

My water is naturally in around 7.8-8.0... I checked my NPT tank for the first time a few days ago. It's a around 6.0. All the organics and plants will bring it down. I'm trying to bring it up with lime stones and shells( Going to raise some fancy snails ).

You can mix in RO/distilled water to bring the ph/hardness down.


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

Hello ripples  submerged will be nice



> My water is naturally in around 7.8-8.0... I checked my NPT tank for the first time a few days ago. It's a around 6.0. All the organics and plants will bring it down.


I thought plants will bring the pH up and not down?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> you can have a filter but don't cause water surface agitation.
> Maybe a canister or a submerged powerhead type filter.
> 
> My water is naturally in around 7.8-8.0... I checked my NPT tank for the first time a few days ago. It's a around 6.0. All the organics and plants will bring it down. I'm trying to bring it up with lime stones and shells( Going to raise some fancy snails ).
> ...


My tap water is at 7.8 and I have yet to see a drop in both the hardness and pH. How long as your tank been set up for? Do you know what your GH and KH are from the tap?


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

Yes, like I said



> So I called the water supply company and found out that the tap water is soft and has a pH of 9.2 with a hardness of 1 grain per gallon (or 16 ppm).


not sure bout kH


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

mmm... i think it's been set up for about 2 months .. I'm not exactly sure.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Prometheus said:


> mmm... i think it's been set up for about 2 months .. I'm not exactly sure.


Actually, I was asking mistergreen what his/her water hardness was and how long the tank was set up for.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Red_Rose said:


> My tap water is at 7.8 and I have yet to see a drop in both the hardness and pH. How long as your tank been set up for? Do you know what your GH and KH are from the tap?


I have 2 NPT. One up for 1 year, the other 2 years. And they're stuffed with plants. I remembered one of the tank being 8.0ph or something like that when I first started.
I was surprised to about the PH too.. HK is 3-4 dkh out of the tap. I'll have to check the KH in the tanks..

isn't it obvious i'm male (*mister*green)


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## helenf (Mar 24, 2008)

I believe the calcium carbonate in all those shells (oyster, egg, shell grit, whatever) will buffer the PH to around 8.3, if allowed to dissolve as much as possible. Won't it? Could be part of the reason your PH is high.

Also, to correct a confusion here. If you are not adding CO2 to the tank, aeration will increase the amount of CO2 in the water, not decrease it. So removing the filter will lower the CO2 and slightly increase the PH as a result, I would expect. 

The reason is that if you are adding CO2 to a tank, you get more CO2 in the water than in the air. So more aeration allows more CO2 to move out of the water into the air, reducing the level of CO2 in the tank.

If you have a planted tank without adding CO2 (like most NPTs, one assumes) you have the opposite situation: the plants use up the CO2, meaning that there is less CO2 in the water than in the air. So more aeration will cause CO2 to move from the air to the water, increasing the amount dissolved in the water.

You only ever need to worry about surface agitation driving off CO2 if you are adding CO2 to the tank. My understanding is that in just about any other situation you can think of, surface agitation is good.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

helenf said:


> .
> 
> Also, to correct a confusion here. If you are not adding CO2 to the tank, aeration will increase the amount of CO2 in the water, not decrease it. So removing the filter will lower the CO2 and slightly increase the PH as a result, I would expect.


that's debatable.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> I have 2 NPT. One up for 1 year, the other 2 years. And they're stuffed with plants. I remembered one of the tank being 8.0ph or something like that when I first started.
> I was surprised to about the PH too.. HK is 3-4 dkh out of the tap. I'll have to check the KH in the tanks..
> 
> isn't it obvious i'm male (*mister*green)


Your KH could be the reason why the pH dropped. My stupid KH from the tap is so high that I don't think it will drop over time. At least my plants and betta are fine with it so I guess that's all that matters.

I've learnt that you can't always go by a username. There is a username that I use on other forums and you wouldn't believe at how many people assume that I'm a man because of it! lol


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

> You do need to be fairly certain that you have your nitrogen fixing bacteria established in your sunstrate before removing the AC filter. One way to do this is to remove the filter but leave the media cartridge (or at least the foam pad) in the tank for a few days after you pull the rest of the filter (hanging near a PH would be ideal).


You say hanging near a PH.. what is that?

How do you know if the bacteria is established in the substrate? How long does this usually take? I tried to put the foam pad in the tank but there was a bunch of debris and residue that was coming off of it into the water, so I decided to put it back in the filter and restart the filter after doing a partial water change and filling it to the top. I will have to find something submersible first maybe. Unfortunately I dont think walmart sells filters around here so I'll have to look around.


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## mulita (Jul 31, 2007)

Prometheus said:


> I have a 30 gallon tank
> 
> ..... When I set up the tank I added oyster grit to the soil because the city water here lacks hard water nutrients. I assume that's driving up the pH. I can't exactly take the oyster grit out of the soil
> 
> My second question is about the filter. I have this aquaclear HOB filter which is creating too much water agitation and a lot of noise and I dont feel like topping it off every few days just to keep the noise down. I want to get rid of the filter.:boxing: Can I do that with a 30 gallon? How do you know when it's safe to take it out? I also have some fuzzy light green algae on the glass and on the driftwood in the tank but it comes off easily. I do have water sprite I just introduced two weeks ago so I am not that concerned about more algae but if I take out the filter there will be no water circulation. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?


I have an Aquaclear in a 30 gallon Wall aquarium and this is not noise at all, probably this is because this is just the size to fit in inside of the wall and inside the width of the aquarium, but from my experience, this cheap little filter works great. Have you review about support of the filter in the aquarium?

About the water agitation, it is actually good to have some surface agitation until certain point, of course to much will produce CO2 loose, what I do with this filter is too keep water line very close or up to the filter output, this minimize the fall but still keep some good surface water circulation.

I guess the oyster grit could be contributing to PH raise up, however, before adding anything, review about KH you have.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

PH=Power Head

The main idea is to avoid removing a significant fraction of the denitrifying bacteria all at once, this way you avoid a mini-cycle (NH2 spike).


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

So I added 1/2 cup of crushed limestone to my 10G 2-3 days ago.. I have not seen any ph or KH change.. Is that normal?


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

AHHHHHH!

Yesterday I did a partial water change
and today I came home and one of my neon tetras was DEAD! 

Will the aeration and co2 escape really affect the pH so much that it will bring it up to 8.4????
or is that the oyster grit?

How do I find out what the kH is? Do I have to go buy some kind of test kit for that.

I am tempted to add the neutral regulater stuff after I see that one of my fish has died. But maybe it died from something else 



> The main idea is to avoid removing a significant fraction of the denitrifying bacteria all at once, this way you avoid a mini-cycle (NH2 spike).


I see what you mean. So perhaps I should wait to get a submersible filter and place the old foam pad next to it, before I take out this one completely. The foam pad had all this debris coming out from it though, when I put it in the water. not sure how to avoid that..


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> So I added 1/2 cup of crushed limestone to my 10G 2-3 days ago.. I have not seen any ph or KH change.. Is that normal?


You know, I had tinkered around with raising my tap water's pH just for fun and I found that seashells work great at raising it. I had added just one shell to a container of water and left it sit for a full 24 hours and it brought the pH up to 8.4. You could always give that a try to see how it works.



Prometheus said:


> AHHHHHH!
> 
> Yesterday I did a partial water change
> and today I came home and one of my neon tetras was DEAD!
> ...


I'm so sorry about your tetra. 

I don't think that aeration will affect the pH that much unless you have it at full blast. My 2.5g tank has one of those treasure chests that opens and closes every few seconds and the pH remains at a stable 8.0.

As for the KH, you can get a test kit by Hagen that contains tests for both the GH and KH. It's a good test to have on hand.


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

The guys at the store are telling me that the tap water kH vary's between 84-108. what does this mean for me? Does that mean its hard for the pH to shift ? or could the kH in the tank be a little different now? now im confused


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH_(hardness)
Your KH is fine.

Just add a little distilled/RO water... and add a bunch of driftwood in you tank if you don't mind the tannin.


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

ok, interesting. I am now wishing I had just put a seashell in there instead of adding the oyster stuff to the soil mixture. I already have bogwood/driftwood in the tank. But if there is a specific kind I should get that will lower pH, I would try that. When you say driftwood, do you mean the kind that is sold in the stores or will actual driftwood from the beach work too? So adding the wood and distilled water will help long term? That is, considering that there are no water changes after that, right? I hope I dont have to add distilled water on a regular basis. This is my first NPT so Im pretty new at this...thanks for all the advice!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Prometheus said:


> ok, interesting. I am now wishing I had just put a seashell in there instead of adding the oyster stuff to the soil mixture.QUOTE]
> 
> I don't think oyster grit dissolves so fast (no faster probably than shells) that it would cause problems, so I would stop worrying about the oyster grit. The high pH is probably more from degassing via your noisey filter. And yes, aeration and CO2 degassing could very easily bring the pH up to 8.4. My co-workers and I had major problems with CO2 degassing and the resulting pH increases when I was working in a tissue culture lab.
> 
> ...


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## Prometheus (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks

Okay, here are two pictures. Yes, the guy at the store got me really worried about the pH. He was even reluctant to sell me any more fish. I added some distilled water and until I get a submersible filter I am using plastic from a bottle to keep the water from splashing. Im not sure if anything has changed since my pH test kit still has a really high reading. It doesnt go up to 8 so I can't tell. I think some of my new neons had neon tetra disease.. some of them were getting fading tails so I had to get rid of a few. Yesterday one of my otto cats died, but maybe from natural causes.

Everything else looks okay. It's 30 gal. Lighting is 98 watts for 12 hours a day. Should I cut this down? I have a lot of emergent growth but i'm still seeing some light green algae on the glass. Some hair algae started growing around the java moss. And I think the snails are eating holes in the lily


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