# Amano to Dirt-cheap NPT style?



## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Recent posts discuss exactly what set of parameters qualifies an aquarium as El-natural. Since there are so many different aquarium setups described in this forum, I thought it would be interesting to open a poll to find the breakup of NPT styles of forum members.

Here's a vastly simplified breakup of planted tank styles:

*Dirt-cheap*: Low-tech planted tank just as described in Diana's book, using natural sunlight as much as possible, cheap plain old garden soil or potting soil on the bottom, *no *gravel vacuuming, little to no water changes, using fishfood to fertilize the plants without any additional fertilizers, *no *CO2 injection, *no *under-gravel filter and *no *filter media (possibly an empty filter to keep water moving)

*Bourgeoisie*: A planted tank as described above, only with a few high-tech elements, for example with *minimal *CO2 injection, or with *infrequent *addition of ferts (eg. Excel), or with a specialty aquarium substrate (eg. Eco-Complete), or with an under-gravel filter or filter which uses activated carbon/zeolite

*Amano*: a high-tech planted tank, probably with C02 injection and fertilizers added to soil and/or water, most likely requiring water changes/gravel vacuuming/waste siphoning/advanced filtration

Or if your tank doesn't fit into any of these (vaguely defined) catagories, describe why in your response :boxing:


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Well, I fall squarely in Bourgeoisie as you've defined it. Infrequent fertilization (you should have added use of Excel in there) and better lighting than is strictly followed in El Natural. When I'm looking for help though, the El Natural forum is more useful to me than the high tech threads. I just like to fuss with my tanks a bit more than is called for in El Natural.


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

It's strange, that I'm the _only _one who picked dirt-cheap so far. Actually it's not so strange, ppl get aquariums to fuss over them as just mentioned, not to ignore them. Still, I'm a bit surprised.

cs_gardener: I'm not familiar with Excel (in fact I don't really know that much about aquarium additives & other merchandise, other than what I read on this forum), but I'll add it next to ferts right now.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

I chose Dirt cheap as well, I have a couple tanks like that, but I also have several in the Bourgeoisie class as well. But all of them have topsoil substrates.


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## Urkevitz (Oct 26, 2004)

Mine main tank has pressurized Co2, moderate lighting. Not much fertilization required and infrequent water changes.


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Now this is more like it 

I notice a bunch of you have high-tech planted tanks. My experience with High-tech is limited to flipping through three of Amano-san's photobooks on my bookshelf. But I know of 2 immediate advantages (maybe some of you can share your own)
1) From Diana's book, high-tech usually involves undergravel heaters and/or frequent water changes >> alleopathy is lessened, so certain species of plants don't slowly die away >> one can aquascape with a much broader palette, picking and choosing plants for looks only, without worrying about compatibility
2) As far as I know, the spectacular pearling effect of riccia growing on driftwood/rocks can only be acheived in such a high-tech tank, most likely requiring CO2 addition. Probably some other effects as well (eg. *extreme reds*, as opposed to the faint reds those same plants display growing without CO2 injection) can only occur in such high-tech tanks.


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## Satirica (Feb 13, 2005)

sb483 said:


> 1) From Diana's book, high-tech usually involves undergravel heaters and/or frequent water changes >> alleopathy is lessened, so certain species of plants don't slowly die away >> one can aquascape with a much broader palette, picking and choosing plants for looks only, without worrying about compatibility
> 2) As far as I know, the spectacular pearling effect of riccia growing on driftwood/rocks can only be acheived in such a high-tech tank, most likely requiring CO2 addition. Probably some other effects as well (eg. *extreme reds*, as opposed to the faint reds those same plants display growing without CO2 injection) can only occur in such high-tech tanks.


Diana's book is not a good reference source for how people run high tech tanks.  Very few people use undergravel heaters for example. Water changes often depend upon the fertilization scheme that is employed -- some are designed to minimize or eliminate water changes. There is considerable doubt and debate about whether allelopathy contributes much of anything to an aquarium, see Tropica Plants can just wither away in high tech tanks with 50% weekly water changes if ther needs are not met.

Much of the red color in plants -- not all -- has to do with tank lighting. Certain colors of lights (9325K GEs for example) emphasize the appearance of reds. Also, nutrient levels play a role -- lower available nitrogen and higher available iron/trace elements are believed to play a role in red coloration though I haven't read anything definitive on that. That aside, the rotala rotundifolia growing in my low tech tanks looks just like the rotala growing in the high tech tanks.

I have one El Natural tank running but I don't know that it is going to remain El Natural. For farming it is fine, but I'm not certain that I'm goign to happy with the plant palate available for aquascaping.


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## SUBORPHAN (Apr 20, 2006)

Amanorayer: all the time. never anything else.


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## Teeleton (Jun 8, 2006)

Dirt cheap here as well. I was intrigued by the natural style, and find it fascinating trying to let the tank balance out and let the organisms natural defenses and adaptabilites do their job.

The lower maintenence level helps too.

Teeleton


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## bijoon (Nov 20, 2006)

Vacuming gravel? I thought you wernt supposed to disturb high quality gravel much. AS is so light Id think that it would be hard to do.


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## gpimm (Sep 17, 2006)

I'm firmly planted between dirt cheap and Bourgeoisie. The bathroom tank is a restored 10 gallon chrome frame tank with full chrome hood that is pure el-natural. No natural light on this tank.

The rest of the tanks are el-natural with low CO2 injection and moderate light. I don't use any ferts or other additives other than fish food. 2 tanks are in windows and get outside light, the 35 in my office doesn't get any outside light.

Gary


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## Mr Fishies (Apr 9, 2006)

I guess I am Dirt-cheap with Bourgeoisie tendencies.

I would be dirt cheap, except after the bi-monthly (or so) pruning of my 50G I will add 25 ml of Excel (according to the post water change instructions) and 2 ml of Flourish to help topped stem plants plants that have just lost a big root structure re-establish themselves. My 7 gets about 2-3 ml of Excel and .25 ml of Flourish.

Maybe not totally "El Natural", but in nature plants don't get topped and re-planted either so...

(Now that I think about it, I've been using the same 250ml bottle of flourish on my two tanks this way for a year and a half and it's still about 75% full - I wonder if it will go bad?)


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Teeleton said:


> Dirt cheap here as well. I was intrigued by the natural style, and find it fascinating trying to let the tank balance out and let the organisms natural defenses and adaptabilites do their job.
> 
> The lower maintenence level helps too.
> 
> Teeleton


Fully agree with you here. I'll add that some ppl wouldn't even be keeping aquariums at all if the Walstad-style setup didn't work. It's absolutely remarkable, that fishfood is the only real expense after the initial setup costs (tank+stand, heater, fish).


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

For 10 Gallon El Naturale - amazing! Seems to take care of itself! (In basement w/ 20 Watts of Light on timer & heater) I look at it when I get home from work late at night and turn on the light and watch the shrimp swim. Wow! And the plants Urkevitz donated to me look great and the powerfilter seems to make the Java Fern and shrimp happy. 

9 Cup Betta Vase @ Home = El Naturale = Dirt Cheap. Stumble across this one. Put Betta in Vase on counter between rooms, eventually tossed in scrap plants. Voila! Feed fish + nothing. Just works! Tried adding Ferts in this one, and will never do that again! I ended up having to get a new Betta. :sad: Because of that I now have a Crown Betta. Getting used to him. 

Regular 10 Gallon. DIY CO2 + Dry Ferts. CF bulbs + window sunlight. No soil yet. Growing HM in this one and still tinkering with this tank......

Regular 27 1/2 Hex Tank. DIY CO2 + Dry Ferts. USA Orbit lights. No soil yet.... Still tinkering with this tank....

1 Gallon Betta Bowl @ the Office. 1 inch of soil. 1 1/2 inch Seachem Flourite. 6700K 25 Watt Office cubicle light. I should get back on track with the Seachem Ferts....... the HM is alive but not flourishing in this one yet. Anubias 'coffee?' is doing fine - has a new leaf!

I put dirt cheap. That's why we have Nanos, right? 
We want beautiful, but we want it on the price the we can afford. Otherwise we would have 200,000 gallon entire wall tanks put in our houses and just pay someone to maintain it high tech. (Maybe.)

El Naturale requires learning and appreciating biology. Very unique. Not necessarily results in a bottle. That's why nobody sells it. Yet.... (Or do they?)


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## Tiapan (Jun 14, 2006)

i guess i am a combination of all three. i like the scaping of amano (the artistic sense) but there is no way i can afford all his products or even competitors versions thereof. i do tend to use higher wattage of lights but only on tanks that dont get any sunlight. i also tend to keep a filter running on my tanks as security ( i dont change them very often though (every few months) i just like to have some carbon in case someone sprays anything in the room when im not there. but the plants seem to be doing fine and i definately never use ferts. some tanks are just sand and some plants. (my tangyanika tanks) not even heavy lighting.1.5 to 2 watts pergallon and my vals are doing great. so put me as dirty burgoise, but i voted dirt because i try to get all my tank stuff on the low end( used/customer returns that sort of thing)


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Tiapan said:


> i guess i am a combination of all three. i like the scaping of amano (the artistic sense) but there is no way i can afford all his products or even competitors versions thereof. i do tend to use higher wattage of lights but only on tanks that dont get any sunlight. i also tend to keep a filter running on my tanks as security ( i dont change them very often though (every few months) i just like to have some carbon in case someone sprays anything in the room when im not there. but the plants seem to be doing fine and i definately never use ferts. some tanks are just sand and some plants. (my tangyanika tanks) not even heavy lighting.1.5 to 2 watts pergallon and my vals are doing great. so put me as dirty burgoise, but i voted dirt because i try to get all my tank stuff on the low end( used/customer returns that sort of thing)


May I suggest removing the activated carbon; no big problem leaving it in, but it removes things like Dissolved Organic Carbon that could help the fish and plants - even bind together anything sprayed into the tank. Plus you don't have to keep buying it.


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## Sudi (Feb 3, 2005)

I have a 75 Amano tank and a 10 Semi-Amano tank.
I love the natural style of amano and the soil is amazing. The ADA line ferts are good, but they aren't wonderfull...

ADA isn't that expensive if you think about it. (investing the money in soil + ferts only)


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## jeff63851 (Feb 23, 2005)

Well, it's Bourgeoisie for me. All of my planted tanks have "high tech" lighting, but I also keep the cost down by slashing some stuff that would be included in "high-tech" tanks.

I found out through experience that high tech tanks would usually require more maintenance time, something that I don't have.


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