# New Tank with Native Fish!



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Here's quote from Melauriga in an earlier thread that I'd like to update:

Melaurigia to another hobbyist: "You might consider North American native fish for an unheated tank. Sunfish are pretty spectacular and have interesting breeding behavior. There are even pygmy sunfish that grow around 1
1.5". Native killies like the Bluefin killifish, Florida flagfish are quite colorful. There are also native livebearers, darters, shiners, etc."

I set up a new 55 gal three months ago. The juvenile Tanganyikans and Rainbowfish I purchased specifically for it started dying out one-by-one. (Only a male Betta survived.) In the meantime, I came across 6 Sunfish that I had in my pond and totally forgotten about. (They had been given to me last summer by someone from the Aquarium Society who's into native fish.)

I was cleaning out the pond when I found them buried in the stinky muck I was throwing out. What impressed me is that the fish weren't looking too shabby. They had survived the winter in a small pond with no filtration and absolutely no care.

With reassurance from my friend, I put the Sunfish into my 55 gal. Other than a male Betta, this 55 gal is now their exclusive home. These fish are absolutely wonderful! Tough, beautiful, interesting behavior, and maximum size is less than 4 inches. Only downside so far is that Sunfish don't seem to like to eat anything but worms. So I give them freeze dried bloodworms and live earthworms.

I keep the tank heated to keep my tropical plants happy. Sunfish may be able to survive coldwater, but I figure they won't mind having a permanent summer.

The Sunfish are brand new territory for me, but so far I'm quite pleased. Advice is welcome!

Blue-spotted Sunfish _Enneacanthus gloriosus_.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

I don't mean to behave like a groupie but last year I wanted sunfish so much. Every place I knew to catch some easy someone had a bait trap so I didn't dare mess with any of those spots. I finally got some baby suckers and bullheads out of crowded bait tanks at a huge sports place. They were in heaven in a new 45 gal. tank, they grew like crazy. They ate anything and everything. After 3 months I gave them to a man with a pond. He'd been bringing home bait fish for years. I have no doubt those sunnies will do fine. They also like salamanders. Pretty much anything that wiggles. 
Did you try stinky carnivore pellets? I grew up playing in the Catskill Creek, we'd even throw in a piece of a hamburger or hotdog and all the sunnies would fight like piranha over it.


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## BenBOMB (Apr 25, 2009)

I'm way jealous, i've always wanted to do a native fish tank.

I'll deff be coming back to this thread for updates i'm excited haha.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

An excellent alternative to sunfish is a large school of tiger barbs. They are sunfish and perch in one but will eat out of your fingers, not your fingers. If you didn't grow up being a fish yourself you wouldn't know that about sunfish. The larger sunfish, 6-7 inches, like to sneak up behind you and take a good nibble out of the backside of your thigh. That's when I used to yell "Fish Fry"!! You get a whole pile of them, filet, bread them and deep fry, best fish dinner ever. 

Back to tiger barbs, they are the most comical beautiful fish, only get 3 inches max. But don't get the tiny ones, they will get caught in your powerhead, tiniest suction anyplace and they're done. Get the ones at least an inch. They are a wonderful fish, maybe in a planted tank you'd get babies. I have a female so swollen with eggs but too many other fish in the tank with them. 

I researched all over WI and Minn. natural resources pages and links to people who keep wild fish. Maybe minnows and their variations but so many are disappearing from waters and you know how they like to jump. I'd order some barbs from liveaquaria. Either that or start a fish farm. I researched that too, my big farmer wants to build and stock a pond with fish he can go out and catch someday. He wants trout, I want bass.


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## melauriga (Mar 20, 2009)

Wow, I'm pleased and honored to have been quoted by a famous author! I'm with BenBOMB, it will be exciting to hear updates on how it goes with the sunfish. Since learning about NPTs I had thought that natives would be a great fit for a natural-type setup such as these.
I only have a 10 gallon right now, and I'm looking into stocking it with pygmy sunfish and Heterandria formosa.

I have read that a lot of people are able to get their sunfish to take cichlid pellets after they get used to you being their source of food. It helps if they are very hungry and if they see other fish eating prepared food.

Please keep us updated!


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

> The Elassomatidae are known collectively as pygmy sunfishes, but are not true sunfishes, which are members of family Centrarchidae.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elassomatidae

doesn't even look like a sunfish.

Heterandria formosa:



> This little livebearer should have a tank of its own unless a suitable tankmate can be found that will not eat them as the females rarely exceed 1 1/5 inches and the males are only about 4/5 of an inch.


http://www.nativefish.org/articles/LittlestLivebearer.php

I hope you don't mix them. You'll never get any babies, not in a 10 gal. I have a 3 gal. picotope that would be good for those formosas. Real sunfish are cool but you really want to think about what you have in the tank with them. Personally, I can't stand fish that eat other fish. Give me a nice peaceful tank any day. And carnivore pellets appeal to lots of fish, doesn't neccessarily mean they are carnivores. I have dojo loaches and cory cats and 3 kinds of barbs that just love them. Tho you get right down to it all fish are carnivores just like all birds are carnivores. It is what it is.

Those funky recipes for *home made fish food using gelatin* really work for using up fish food nobody would eat. Like cichlid pellets.  And shrimp flakes and goldfish flakes and spinach and squash, and they all come running. In fact this homemade food is really good for getting fish eating again and I'll bet it works on starting *wild fish *too. *They can't resist it. *


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## nicolai vandhul (May 15, 2009)

I have a unheated tank with no electric light og filtration. In there I have Elassoma Evergladei, Heterandria Formosa, shrimps and snails. It´s the most successful tank I have ever had. 
Here is a link to the thread about this tank http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/62488-125x25x20cm-no-tech.html

I really think, Elassom evergladei is a beautiful fish. It is not as shy as I have read it would be. It eats a lot of live Daphne (Daphnia magna), and the males ar really showing their colours when fighting for their place in the hierarki.


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

crappy is another nice native - at one time or another i kept all kinds of natives


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Suprea, thats crappie not crappy, they taste too good to be called crappy. But with crappie they can and will get up to around 5 pounds. They like bluegills and sunfish ( sunfish are cousins of the largemouth bass I believe and behave in similar manners, if they are well fed they will be fine, miss a feeding and they will eat any fish or craw/frog ect that it can fit in its mouth, they are voracious eaters and will attack as well as defend.

I keep sunfish,gills and both white and black crappie together with bass,trout,walleyes and a musky.( 2 9k gallon tanks at work.


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

when i was a kid - i was always in the local streams and ponds catching things with a dip and cast net - one time i had a small garfish - but he died on me


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Gar are neat, we have two in our warm water tank. One is about 30" now the other around 17".


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## Juergen (Sep 5, 2008)

uuh, nice! I'm keeping Jordanella floridae, Heterandria formosa and Elassoma e. too!


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

i always caught and kept snakes too - i still have a corn snake my kids caught as a hatchling 5 years ago - and i seem to be knee deep in gray rat snakes around here - i will pick one up , give him a few good meals - and release them - a couple years back i caught one over 6 feet long - bad attitude too - if i didnt have kids i would likely have a rattlesnake - not as hard as it sounds - just dont take chances with em - watching them pop a rat is fascinating


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> Suprea, thats crappie not crappy, they taste too good to be called crappy. But with crappie they can and will get up to around 5 pounds. They like bluegills and sunfish ( sunfish are cousins of the largemouth bass I believe and behave in similar manners, if they are well fed they will be fine, miss a feeding and they will eat any fish or craw/frog ect that it can fit in its mouth, they are voracious eaters and will attack as well as defend.
> 
> I keep sunfish,gills and both white and black crappie together with bass,trout,walleyes and a musky.( 2 9k gallon tanks at work.





WhiteDevil said:


> Suprea, thats crappie not crappy, they taste too good to be called crappy. But with crappie they can and will get up to around 5 pounds. They like bluegills and sunfish ( sunfish are cousins of the largemouth bass I believe and behave in similar manners, if they are well fed they will be fine, miss a feeding and they will eat any fish or craw/frog ect that it can fit in its mouth, they are voracious eaters and will attack as well as defend.
> 
> I keep sunfish,gills and both white and black crappie together with bass,trout,walleyes and a musky.( 2 9k gallon tanks at work.


What does 9k mean?

A guy back home in the late '70's saw one of those big exhibit tanks at the state museum. He'd inherited enough money to afford hiring a fish pro to make him a massive tank in his house. Then he hired local guys to bring him big wild fish. You should have seen me trying to explain to him that those walleyes had to be hooked, he actually thought they were going out at night in the reservoir and magically netting them and the same with all the creek fish. Some had mouths that never healed.

Then the year's servicing that came with the tank ran out. That fish guy must have been the only one feeding them once a month. I only saw the tank once, most of the fish were long gone. It was horrifying. It looked like someone had removed one muddy wall from a stagnet pond and put green algae glass in it's place. I freaked. He turned the light off and pushed me out of the room. Later I heard him telling another guy the sunfish ate the trout. Nobody would bring him fish anymore. A fool and his money. That's why they call sunfish the clean-up crew. I've seen them gang up on a trout in the creek with a hook still in his mouth and about 6 feet of line still attached. They are nasty little buggers.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

9K= 9,000 gallons.

Ours are healthy, they eat daily, tank is always clean( has to be its a living museum) www.cabelas.com see all our tanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

melauriga said:


> Since learning about NPTs I had thought that natives would be a great fit for a natural-type setup such as these.
> I only have a 10 gallon right now, and I'm looking into stocking it with pygmy sunfish and Heterandria formosa.
> 
> I have read that a lot of people are able to get their sunfish to take cichlid pellets after they get used to you being their source of food. It helps if they are very hungry and if they see other fish eating prepared food. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

I tried but I can't find them. I'm familiar with the site too, shopped there once or twice. Neveer seen any fish tanks, 9000 gallons, that's an ocean. 

Why does this thing keep logging me out?


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

arent they kinda like bream ?


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## Slappy*McFish (Aug 11, 2007)

Very cool. I have a 10g stocked with one Bluespotted Sunfish and a group of Golden Topminnows 'Fundulus Chrysotus' (3 females and 1 male). They all eagerly accept frozen or freeze-dried Mysis, Bloodworms as well as granulated and flake foods.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

don't forget minnows and shiner.. Some are as colorful as tropicals.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> don't forget minnows and shiner.. Some are as colorful as tropicals.


They may be beautiful, but the only pictures I've seen of native fish are absolutely crummy. That's why I'm re-attaching the photo of my Blue Spotted Sunfish. It is a male, but the females have the blue spots, too. This photo (of a live, unfrightened fish) shows how beautiful these fish really are. No wonder their name is _gloriosus_!

The hardiness and disease resistance of my Sunfish top any food pecularities. {I'm training mine to take cichlid pellets now.} Found out yesterday that they love chopped-up shrimp, so we're now sharing meals. 

I've avoided native fish because I thought they were unattractive, required coldwater, and thus, couldn't be kept with tropical aquarium plants.

With my new Sunfish tank-- and the input from the rest of you-- I am learning something new!


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Wow,

that blue spotted sunfish IS gorgeous! And, since it seems you'd wanted strong-personality cichlids for that tank anyhow, this is a great alternative!

I've always been impressed with the pictures of Native Fishes here:
http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/

This person is keeping a bunch in aquariums. Picture quality isn't the best, but his album has a variety of smaller fishes:
http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/dbrusovt/

That's a neat discovery on the chopped shrimp! When I open a small can of salmon (packed in water of course), to make a variant on tuna salad, I always share with my fish! They really love the shreds of solid meat (perhaps its "smelly" like one person suggested) and I'll toss in a few of the nice soft canned vertebrae for the snails to chew on.

The tank looks lovely! Can I ask what the very red plant is, and how much light its getting? Its an impressive sight!

-Jane


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## BenBOMB (Apr 25, 2009)

Hey got any updated full tank shots?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hello Jane,

Thanks so much for your fish feeding tips and the two links. The pictures aren't very good. Not complaining! It confirms my original suspicion of why native fish are not kept by more hobbyists.

The brilliant red stem plants are _Rotalia macrandra_. Lighting for this 55 gal is strong window light plus 80 watts of T-12 fluorescent light (a cool-white and one aquarium light). Daylength is 14 hr with a 4 hr midday siesta.

I found that this plant species does very well the first 6 months in a new tank (no matter what lighting I have) and then gradually falls apart. It may need more chelated iron than other plants (as the soil settles down, it releases less chelated iron into the water). When this plant bunch starts to go downhill, I'm going to try out some new ideas. First idea is to add a potted plant with fresh potting soil/clay to the tank. That may pump enough chelated iron into the water to keep it going. We'll see....

And BenBOMB, the tank picture that I took starting this thread was taken last week. I've included it again to make it easier to get to.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

notropis chrosomus









Etheostoma caeruleum









Etheostoma rufilineatum









Pteronotropis signipinnis









Just to name a few... Obviously, they're this colorful in a healthy environment and it's time to get it on (marvin gaye style)...

This is a native fish store you guys might want to check out.
http://www.aquaculturestore.com/fwverts.html


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

MisterGreen, you have come through in a big way! Nice pictures of "live fish" and a place to buy them. Thanks!


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## nkambae (Nov 6, 2007)

Hi all! It's nice to see others becoming interested in keeping our native fishes. As mentioned, the North American Native Fishes Association (NANFA) is a great resource for information regarding our native fishes. My fiancee and myself recently became interested in natives as well. We went on a couple of darter collection hunts with our local Minnesota Aquarium Society and had a great time exploring and collecting. Many people in NANFA collect their own fish and we found it to be rewarding as well. Just check your local regs before collecting a bunch of fish just willy, nilly. There are some endangered and threatened species you don't want to be removing from their habitats.

The midwest and eastern U.S. (probably the west too!) has many colorful (some just in breeding season) and small fish well suited for the NPT. We collected three species of dace, a stoneroller, banded killifish, and five species of darters. As an added benefit, we also caught a bunch of free, live food for our finny friends! Most are temperate fish and do prefer cooler water. Mid 70's is the upper tolerance for many species but some of the sunfish and cats can tolerate warmer temps for awhile. Just remember that some of the sunfish, pikes, perch, minnow, and catfish families can get quite large and predatory. Which is why we stuck with the smaller darters, dace, and killis. Though it does behoove me to remember my rules of fish keeping:

1. Big fish eat little fish.
2. Fish die.
3. If you are missing fish, please refer to rules 1 and 2.

Our killis ate some dace fry. Ah well...

A couple of pics of our darter hunts:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/nkambae/HPIM12062.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/nkambae/HPIM11872.jpg

I should not have to mention this but I will anyway. If one purchases or collects any of our native fish, it needs to be a one way trip to our aquariums as they will most likely be exposed to disease organisms not found in their native habitats. There are some virulent diseases and parasites in the aquarium hobby which don't need to be introduced into the wild. The converse is true as well in that wild fish could well be carrying pathogens to which our ornamental tropical fish have little to no immunity. 'Nuff said... I'll get down off my soapbox for now.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

the worst thing the aquarium trade was to change the naturally beautiful sailfin molly. I've always wanted a wild sailfin.

I'm upgrading to a 75G and wondering if I should switch to a native tank. I can't get rid of my old fish though. There are a lot of great native plants too btw.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Ah, the wild Sailfin Molly is absolutely magnificent! At one time I had a pond full of them. 

MisterGreen, I am wondering if another native fish species would go well in my 55 gal tank with the 6 Blue-spotted Sunfish. One that was colorful (like fish in pics you posted) and wouldn't interfere with any potential Sunfish spawning. For example, those Darters are gorgeous, but I'm worried that they wouldn't be happy in a tropical tank that wasn't like their natural fast-flowing, coldwater stream habitat. 

I am hoping that any native fish (including the Sunfish) I keep will do okay kept permanently at tropical temperatures. In the summer, I can't keep the temperature much below 83F. In the winter, I keep temperature at 75F so that aquarium plants I have now grow okay.


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## melauriga (Mar 20, 2009)

I hope it is ok to post a link to a commercial website here, I have found a lot of info on native fish at http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/. There is a page on feeding and compatibility of native North American fish there that you might find useful, as well as some other articles.

Oh, and Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine had a two-part series on sunfish recently, within the last few months.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> Ah, the wild Sailfin Molly is absolutely magnificent! At one time I had a pond full of them.
> 
> MisterGreen, I am wondering if another native fish species would go well in my 55 gal tank with the 6 Blue-spotted Sunfish. One that was colorful (like fish in pics you posted) and wouldn't interfere with any potential Sunfish spawning. For example, those Darters are gorgeous, but I'm worried that they wouldn't be happy in a tropical tank that wasn't like their natural fast-flowing, coldwater stream habitat.
> 
> I am hoping that any native fish (including the Sunfish) I keep will do okay kept permanently at tropical temperatures. In the summer, I can't keep the temperature much below 83F. In the winter, I keep temperature at 75F so that aquarium plants I have now grow okay.


I'm from Cincinnati and the temps here get well over the 90's in the summer. We have a lot of those fishes listed above... Those fishes can be found in Florida as well and that's pretty much sub-tropical. I think you'll be ok with the temperatures, maybe increase the flow? Oxygen levels might be an issue. You can check out my old post where I went out into one of the local river.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...usiasts/55843-natives-little-miami-river.html

And the issue with breeding sunfish... That's a hard one, a community tank is never a guarantee. The sunfish might be really good parents.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I really enjoyed seeing your photos of flora and fauna from the Little Miami River in Ohio. Its so easy to miss what's in your own backyard until you start looking.  

Since I would like to see my Sunfish breed, I may not introduce anything else into the tank for awhile. I do have a Betta in the tank. I've seen him "stand off" the Sunfish several times. The Sunfish don't seem as aggressive (e.g., kill their tankmates at the "drop of a hat") as Rift Valley cichlids.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Here's an update on my 55 gal with the Sunfish.

Fish- They're doing fine but not breeding. That's a surprise because the six fish are happy, fat, and adult. It could be that they need more live food or ultra-softwater. I suspect it is the softwater requirement that's holding them back (my water is pretty hard). Both requirements are recommended by an expert (Robert Goldstein in _American Aquarium Fish_). I got a used copy from Amazon.com for about $25.

Plants- Here's where I have another problem. For my 55 gal, I made internal glass shelving for potted plants. Now, I have plenty of happy Water Sprite potted in soil and growing emergent. I've also put other plants on the shelves. I really like this option.

I thought that the plants underneathe (_Cryptocoryne wendtii_) growing in the soil substrate would have enough light and do okay. However, I was wrong. They died. So now I had a soil underlayer with nothing growing in it. Not good. That's when I decided to remove the soil underlayer and reserve this area for plants like Java Fern, Anubias, etc that didn't need at soil substrate.

So in removing the soil area, I created a lot of turbidity. That's where the Quick Filter helped, in that it removed some of the water turbidity.

I think that eventually everything will work out. Fish are fine. Hopefully, the Java Fern and Anubias under the shelving will do okay. Here's picture of the tank as it is right now.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

That's a great idea to make shelves for potted plants! Great work on that and good luck bredding your natives.

Do you think a low-grower may have done okay beneath the shelves, like Marsilea or Crypt. lucens?

-Dave


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

davemonkey said:


> Do you think a low-grower may have done okay beneath the shelves, like Marsilea or Crypt. lucens?
> 
> -Dave


I don't think so. I started tank out with very healthy _Cryptocoryne wendtii_ under the shelves, and they all died. I believe they didn't have enough light to protect themselves (via oxygenating their roots).

So now I have a little area under the shelves without soil. Here I have Java Fern growing on rocks and Anubias nana. They are doing just fine.

Soil is great for plants, but only if there's enough light.


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