# Cryptocoryne Sp. Affinis SUBMERSED Spathe



## TorontoPlantMan (May 11, 2014)

It isn't fully developed yet but I'll add more photo's when it's fully opened, it's getting taller everyday.


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

How did it look when it opened? I wonder if this is really _C. affinis _with those cataphyls ... Looks more like an_ C. usteriana _to me ...


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## neilshieh (Jun 24, 2010)

are you sure it's affinis? The leaves look too tall to be affinis imo


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## TorontoPlantMan (May 11, 2014)

illustrator said:


> How did it look when it opened? I wonder if this is really _C. affinis _with those cataphyls ... Looks more like an_ C. usteriana _to me ...


I never caught it opening, plus the spathe stayed completely submersed so I don't imagine it opened.

It is definitely C. Affinis and not C. Usteriana; C. Usteriana has a completely different spathe

Please see the write up/pictures I took for full details.

http://torontoplantman.wordpress.co...oryne-sp-haerteliana-submersed-spathe-update/



neilshieh said:


> are you sure it's affinis? The leaves look too tall to be affinis imo


Yes I am 100% sure; the plant was grown in an aquarium 22 inches tall. Plants will stretch towards the light dependant upon PAR levels; I keep the plant in low light hense why it is so tall. I believed it flowered since I took the shade cloth off, introducing ALOT more light.

The spathe was 17+ inches tall upon cutting down : http://torontoplantman.wordpress.co...oryne-sp-haerteliana-submersed-spathe-update/


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

There's really at least one huge C. affinis variant, I've had one that got considerably bigger than another, "normal" affinis in the same tank. Maybe it was that "giant leaved" one on the crpyts pages, its resemblance to a C. usteriana is noted there: http://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Gallery/aff/aff.html

Btw., in cases of uncertain species belonging it's more correct to write cf. ( = confer) instead of sp. => Cryptocoryne cf. affinis.


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

I actually have the giant _C. affinis _from the crypt pages, it is roughly twice the size as the "old clone", but it doesn't have cataphyls. I also have one which is even somewhat bigger, also lacking cataphyls (not flowered yet, but likely also _C. affinis_). In leaf-shape both resemble _C. usteriana _because they have large, long leaves which can be rather bullose.

It is this character which makes me doupt: cataphyls are "not fully developed leaves", basically leaf-stalks without a leaf on top. Some species have these, others don't, but in those species which have them, often only well grown large specimens develop cataphyls. So far, I didn't see any _C. affinis _with cataphyls, while _C. usteriana _normally has them. My _C. apnogetifolia _also has cataphyls (this one flowered).


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## TorontoPlantMan (May 11, 2014)

As I mentioned before, plants grow upward or downward dependant upon light levels. I can take a completely flattened/short plant and easily grow it tall simply by putting it in a very tall aquarium with low light...sure this may not work for every species but it's worked with many crypt's that I have tried it on.

I'm not too sure why some of you think this plant is Usteriana when the spathe of usteriana is nothing like affinis...not even remotely similar? I know the difference between sp. and cf which is why I wrote Sp because I know it's species is affinis. I also have a Cf. Affinis which is not like this one ; also shown on my blog.

Here is a picture of an sp. affinis from the crypt pages : http://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Gallery/aff/aff_x_M_988.jpg

and here is a picture of the spathe from the plant I posted :
https://torontoplantman.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/img_1896.jpg

and here is what you're saying this plant is....
http://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Gallery/ust/ust.html


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

I have no doubt that the spathe indicates a C. affinis. Cataphyll issue: it would be interesting to cultivate that plant together with other (big) affinis forms (same conditions) to see if it's a special feature of that particular affinis form (because of illustrator's note that often only well grown big plants develop cataphylls).
Changeable size depending on conditions: that issue appears again and again when hobbyists discuss differences between aquarium plants in general. Possible genetically fixed differences are always blurred by reactions to different conditions in such plastic species as affinis. Also here again, real differences become apparent only when the plants are grown together longer time under same conditions.



TorontoPlantMan said:


> I know the difference between sp. and cf which is why I wrote Sp because I know it's species is affinis. I also have a Cf. Affinis which is not like this one ; also shown on my blog.


I remember the same use of sp. by other aquarists, but it's not used that way in taxonomy. Sp. or spec. in names is a placeholder for an unknown species name. If the species identity is certain, the sp. is replaced by the species epitheton:
=> Cryptocoryne affinis.
But to label a particular strain of the species, one can attach an auxiliary name, but always in quotation marks.
Another case is e.g. Persicaria *sp.* "Kawagoeanum" (plant finder). Meaning: "Unidentified Persicaria species, gotten with the label P. kawagoeanum". That doesn't even contain a statement about the possible species belonging but gives only the label.


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## TorontoPlantMan (May 11, 2014)

miremonster said:


> I have no doubt that the spathe indicates a C. affinis. Cataphyll issue: it would be interesting to cultivate that plant together with other (big) affinis forms (same conditions) to see if it's a special feature of that particular affinis form (because of illustrator's note that often only well grown big plants develop cataphylls).
> Changeable size depending on conditions: that issue appears again and again when hobbyists discuss differences between aquarium plants in general. Possible genetically fixed differences are always blurred by reactions to different conditions in such plastic species as affinis. Also here again, real differences become apparent only when the plants are grown together longer time under same conditions.


If you say that you have no doubt that it is C. Affinis; then why is there a Cataphyll issue? You said yourself from illustrators note "(because of illustrator's note that often only well grown big plants develop cataphylls)." so you are basically saying you don't believe the plant is "well grown" ?

Maybe it's possible illustrator has simply never seen a "well grown" C. affinis, especially since most people keep Crypt's in emersed conditions (at least in North America anyway; I've had this plant in the same location/conditions without moving it for roughly 2 years now.



miremonster said:


> I remember the same use of sp. by other aquarists, but it's not used that way in taxonomy. Sp. or spec. in names is a placeholder for an unknown species name. If the species identity is certain, the sp. is replaced by the species epitheton:
> => Cryptocoryne affinis.
> But to label a particular strain of the species, one can attach an auxiliary name, but always in quotation marks.
> Another case is e.g. Persicaria *sp.* "Kawagoeanum" (plant finder). Meaning: "Unidentified Persicaria species, gotten with the label P. kawagoeanum". That doesn't even contain a statement about the possible species belonging but gives only the label.


Thank you for the knowledge.


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## miremonster (Mar 26, 2006)

TorontoPlantMan said:


> If you say that you have no doubt that it is C. Affinis; then why is there a Cataphyll issue? You said yourself from illustrators note "(because of illustrator's note that often only well grown big plants develop cataphylls)." so you are basically saying you don't believe the plant is "well grown" ?


I meant: illustrator hasn't noticed yet such cataphylls on affinis but on other Crypt species, mostly only when they are well-grown. 
Your affinis is well developed. But such conspicuous cataphylls are apparently an unusual feature in C. affinis. So there are the possibilities: a) it depends only on development stage and culture conditions if C. affinis develops ones. Or b) Tendency to develop such cataphylls is a special feature of your particular C. affinis strain while other strains don't that under the same conditions.
So it would be needed to grow it together with other affinis strains in the same tank for a longer time to find out what's true.


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

Or, b) _C. affinis_ only develops cataphylls just before flowering. I could easily have overlooked this when my old strain _C. affinis_ flowered, because it was growing in a dense stand then. This hypothesis can be tested by checking photographs of submersed _C. affinis_ with spathes.

By now it is becoming _really interesting_.

BTW, I have seen _C. affinis_ submersed. Just look at the picture which i posted in the topic on crypt-dominated aquaria.


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## illustrator (Jul 18, 2010)

On the Jan Bastmeijer's pages there is a photo of an emersed flowering _C. affinis _with a very small cataphyll besides the spathe.

Upon close inspection I just noticed that one of my "presumed _C. affinis_" has formed a very small cataphyll as well. This is "presumed" because although it looks like it belongs to this species, I can't be sure of it's identity untill it flowers. I obtained this plant by exchanging it with another grower and he has it without further data.

So could it be that _C. affinis _forms cataphylls just before flowering? To be continued I presume.

BTW: I found that if the water level is too high, it is possible to simply cut of the entire spathe and put it in a glass with the tip above water: it is then opening normally, like a flower in a vase. For in case the first mentioned plant will try to flower again ...


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