# AH hobby lights



## redturk (Apr 17, 2006)

I have broken down and replanted my 55 gallon tank.I am using Miracle Grow organic Potting soil,covered with decorative pebbles. I have two AH hobby lamps at 6700k lamps. photoperiod is 10 hours. My plant growth is very slow and all I am growing are algae on the glass. 
The water is tinted but clear. 
I keep cleaning off the glass and with in a week the algae has returned. 
I have changed the water twice and the tank is about two months old.
What is the limiting factor here? I am a believer in Mrs Wasteds method and I am stumped.Any help would be appreciated
Red Turk


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## Perianth (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm guessing, but I don't believe you have given enough information for an expert to diagnose the problem. Some things that come to mind are did you do the frequent water changes on start up, what type of plants are in there, what is the total wattage of lighting, did you add any soil additives, and is the water chemistry conducive to plant growth?


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## redturk (Apr 17, 2006)

as I have previously stated I have totally changed the water twice since startup two months ago. The wattage is 55 x 2 bulbs. I thought the purpose of a natural tank was to eliminate becoming a chemist. 
red turk


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

People ignore chemistry and fly by others methods with every type of tank I know. ADA doesn't even require you to really understand aquariums, just to follow their procedures. If anything I'd get in to NPT for the love of soil sediment chemistry and nutrient balancing more than to avoid water changes. 

I'd say your first bump would be using pure miracle gro potting soil; a fair amount of organics means NH4 for you. NH4 means algae. Head for mineralized soil, and cap it with a finer substrate than pebbles.

-Philosophos


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

redturk said:


> I have broken down and replanted my 55 gallon tank.I am using Miracle Grow organic Potting soil,covered with decorative pebbles. I have two AH hobby lamps at 6700k lamps. photoperiod is 10 hours. My plant growth is very slow and all I am growing are algae on the glass.
> The water is tinted but clear.
> I keep cleaning off the glass and with in a week the algae has returned.
> I have changed the water twice and the tank is about two months old.
> ...


It seems like you are doing things right; you have good lighting and substrate. Slow growth in your situation could be due to:


water that is too soft (GH less than 2-4); I discuss this in my book
amount of light sounds fine, but I would extend the photoperiod to 12 hr. [I use the "Siesta Method", which consists of a 14 hr photoperiod and a midday Siesta (light's off or dimmed for 3-4 hr)]
algae growth is inhibiting the plants
excessive filtration or aeration that is degassing off all of the CO2. Remember that you don't need biofiltration in an NPT. The only thing you have to worry about is whether fish are getting enough oxygen. 

Hope that this has given you a few ideas.


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## Perianth (Mar 17, 2009)

My water is not conducive to plant growth (I mean not even close to conducive) but it worked somehow. I set up a NPT middle of June with 2 watts per gallon and carefully followed Diana's advice in her book, and I have seen no algae in there at all with very slow plant growth. The only fish are a few otocinclus. One thing I was careful to do was use activated charcoal in the filter at three weeks and to change the charcoal regularly for a couple of weeks. Also, I was able to keep the water temperature constant at 79 degrees F. In other aquariums, I must scrap algae off the glass every few weeks. It may be that your algae is no problem though, some people like algae.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

Sounds a bit like my five gallon, even light is similar (proportionately .
Only difference is photo-period and hardness, perhaps.
My photo-period in 12 hrs, with a 2 hr siesta.
I raised my hardness using a bag of Carib Sea Aragonite in my filter for a day or two.
Good luck solving the issue!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

redturk said:


> The wattage is 55 x 2 bulbs. I thought the purpose of a natural tank was to eliminate becoming a chemist.


Have you considered simply turning off one of the two 55w bulbs? That will help to reduce algae.


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## redturk (Apr 17, 2006)

plants are not doing well. I am changing small amounts of water every day.Water is green. I am now going to a 12 hr lighting period. My timer does not allow for several on off periods so I will have to find one that allows me to program a siesta period. 
Thanks for all the suggestions
Red Turk


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## firefiend (Aug 17, 2009)

If your timer has those little tabs that you insert in the dial to flip the on/off switch you can them extra tabs at any hardware-type store.


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

You need to deal with the green watre first before you can even go further.


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

redturk said:


> as I have previously stated I have totally changed the water twice since startup two months ago. The wattage is 55 x 2 bulbs. I thought the purpose of a natural tank was to eliminate becoming a chemist.
> red turk


It doesn't sound as if you have anything seriously wrong. What's the source of your water? Water changing isn't going to help unless you're absolutely sure your replacement water doesn't contain the nutrients feeding the problem. The only way you can tell that is through chemistry. You haven't mentioned the hardness of your water. If it's too soft, that could account for slow plant growth. How hard is your water? Test kits to determine ph and water hardness aren't expensive and they're easy to use. What's your fish load? Are you feeding enough to sustain your plants? I find that one inch of fish per gallon is about right for a lush tank.

Finally, I've set up at least 20 tanks, some multiple times, in the last 38 years and every single one of them has grown at least a thin film of algae on the glass. In tanks that house snails, they make an attempt but in the end can't quite clean it completely, and I have to scrape it off every couple months or so. To me this is normal.

Good luck, we're all pulling for you.
Jim


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

redturk said:


> plants are not doing well. I am changing small amounts of water every day.Water is green. I am now going to a 12 hr lighting period. My timer does not allow for several on off periods so I will have to find one that allows me to program a siesta period.
> Thanks for all the suggestions
> Red Turk


Your lighting (12 hr of 110 CF lighting) sounds perfect for this 55 gal tank. In my experience, plants never grow well in the presence of green water algae. The algae steals nutrients, CO2 and light from the plants.

Have you tried floating plants? Floating plants, because they get light and CO2 from the air, can compete much better with algae than submerged plants. Once floating plants start growing well, they can get rid of the green water algae. Then your submerged plants will have a "fighting chance".

You don't have to be a chemist to maintain an NPT, but it helps to understand a little bit about aquarium ecology.

Good luck!


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## redturk (Apr 17, 2006)

Here is an update. The light is now on 12 hours. The glass and substrate is covered with algae. Plant growth has stopped and is now in reverse. Plants are starting to loose leaves. the only plant growing is the amazon sword. There must be a limiting factor but I do not know what it is. The water is very clear but it is tinted green which I suppose is from the organic potting soil. I never had this problem with previous tanks. I have had tanks with garden soil which have done well and miracle grow potting soil which also did well. This tank has miracle grow organic potting soil and decorating small stones from a garden center over the potting soil. I live in the mountains and our water is so hard i have to replace the water heater in my house every so often from mineral deposits eating through the metal. I wll try to add floating plants. I thought the reason for a natural substrate was to eliminate nutrients in the water column which the algae would feed on. 
Maybe the tank is cursed.just kidding
red turk


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

redturk said:


> Here is an update. The light is now on 12 hours. The glass and substrate is covered with algae. Plant growth has stopped and is now in reverse. Plants are starting to loose leaves. the only plant growing is the amazon sword. There must be a limiting factor but I do not know what it is. The water is very clear but it is tinted green which I suppose is from the organic potting soil. I never had this problem with previous tanks. I have had tanks with garden soil which have done well and miracle grow potting soil which also did well. This tank has miracle grow organic potting soil and decorating small stones from a garden center over the potting soil. I live in the mountains and our water is so hard i have to replace the water heater in my house every so often from mineral deposits eating through the metal. I wll try to add floating plants. I thought the reason for a natural substrate was to eliminate nutrients in the water column which the algae would feed on.
> Maybe the tank is cursed.just kidding
> red turk


Sorry to hear that things haven't improved. After two months, your plants should be growing, not retreating. (My plants start growing within a week.) It sounds to me like a "plant meltdown". Dying plants will release nutrients into the water making the algae worse and killing more plants.

Since you started with good lighting, hardwater, and a good soil, there has to be something else:


Is the substrate too deep? It its over 1 inch, it may have become too anaerobic for plants.
Decorative pebbles? They could prevent oxygenated water from entering the substrate, again making soil too anaerobic for plant roots.

I don't think water changes will help. Floating plants and your Amazon Swordplant might be able to pull this tank out of a "free fall".

Not sure what to say. A picture would definitely help with the diagnosis.


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## Dustymac (Apr 26, 2008)

redturk said:


> The glass and substrate is covered with algae.


What color is the algae? Is it thread, hair, or just a coating?



> Plant growth has stopped and is now in reverse. Plants are starting to loose leaves. the only plant growing is the amazon sword.


Is there algae on the plants, too?



> There must be a limiting factor but I do not know what it is. The water is very clear but it is tinted green which I suppose is from the organic potting soil.


I have one tank where the water has a slight yellow tint, probably because it's the only one without an UV filter, but it doesn't affect the flora or fauna.



> This tank has miracle grow organic potting soil and decorating small stones from a garden center over the potting soil.


I think you should remove the stones if you can. They could be leaching nutrients into the water which are feeding the algae. I think the only stones you should add to a fish tank are ones which you test beforehand. The ones I used are sandstone and I soaked them in a bucket full of water for a week with an aerator, then tested for ph and hardness.



> I live in the mountains and our water is so hard i have to replace the water heater in my house every so often from mineral deposits eating through the metal.


Ahhhh.... now I think we're getting somewhere. It could be your tap water is full of iron and that's what's feeding the algae. Unless you start testing your water, you really don't know. And eating your water heater only adds more incentive to start a testing regimen. If your water is eating your water heater, just imagine what it's doing to your plants and fish.

Another thing, is your water from a well or is it processed by some local entity. Regardless, it could have changed. Well water can change depending on recharge rates (drought) and which strata the water predominates from. City water can change if they alter how they treat it.

I realize you're a little put off by the complexity of doing chemistry, and I understand that. But look at it this way, you really owe it to your fish to know what kind of environment they're living in. Personally I find the science aspect of our hobby endlessly fascinating and I think if you give it a shot, you might start feeling the same way.



> I thought the reason for a natural substrate was to eliminate nutrients in the water column which the algae would feed on.


Yes, that's the end result. However, the transition to a balanced NPT can go through an algae stage, which seems where you are now. And there are certainly lots of other reasons for a soil substrate and adopting Diana's methodology. The main one for me is the freedom from all the chores: lush plant growth without daily dosing, weekly water changes, gravel vacuuming, filter cleaning, and lets not forget all the money saved. Here's a pic I sent to Diana thanking her for all she's done for our hobby. It's of all the equipment I don't use anymore since getting her book. Check it out:


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

redturk said:


> I thought the reason for a natural substrate was to eliminate nutrients in the water column which the algae would feed on.


Soil substrate leaches nutrients into the water column. When you feed your fish, you are adding nutrients to the water column as well.

In avoiding algae, the key concept is balance - maintaining a balance between the available nutrients (including light) and what is needed (for plant growth and fish) so that there is no left over nutrients for algae growth.

The limiting factor stopping plants from using up the left over nutrients may not be just one. It can be many. Until they have been identified and resolved, I would remove as much of the existing algae as possible and then significantly cut down on the nutrients - reduce light intensity and/or the amount of feeding.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

My first thought is the light photoperiod is to long I would cut it down to eight hours and see how it looks in a few weeks.

My other thought is what size is your stone cap? If it is larger than 3mm then it might be allowing the miracle grow to
leach it's terrestrial plant fertilizer into the water column which would cause massive algae blooms (even the
little miracle grow plant sticks will do that).

While I'm not a El Natural enthusiast I do like to use more old school types of substrates. I buy non-fertilized top soil
from lawncare or orchard supply stores which is all clean soil unlike what big box stores carry that have 90% pine bark.

The first thing I do is add a good sized sprinkle of sphagnum peat moss to lower pH, potash for potassium, and iron
cleat 10% for trace iron. Then I add a two inch layer of the top soil caped with a one inch layer of pool filter sand to
keep all of that down.

While that's not really the El Natural system it does allow me to control what goes into the water column easier but I
do need to dose ferts more often than your method.

- Brad


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

I set up a small El-natural tank once with an inch of plain topsoil and pea-gravel, this was the only El-natural tank that utterly failed. The larger sized substrate cap quickly made the substrate go anaerobic and all of my plant's roots turned black. Now I only use coarse sand for the cap, and if I use decorative stones they are placed against the bottom glass first and then the soil is placed around the stones...this keeps the stones from compacting the soil and creating a very bad mess!

You might want to pull up one of your plants and check the roots, also check for any foul smelling bubbles that surfaceainkille


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