# Nitrates Through the Roof



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

After using PPS-Pro fertilizing for the first time and after the first week, I decided to test the nitrates as was recommended by a senior member because my tank is not fully planted. I looked at the test tube and the solution was a very dark red. Before I started the program my nitrates were about 20. I immediately did a 40% water change, waited a day and tested again; no change It's been a week of daily water changes probably between 20-25% and the nitrates are still very high. I cleaned the sump, filter, overflow and of course the substrate. Everytime I turned on the filter after the water change a lot of muck came into the tank. The last time I did the water change, it looked pretty clear.

I took a sample of my tank water to the LFS and they confirmed that my nitrates were very high. I have a fully stocked tank with about 25% of the tank planted. Right now, the water looks very clear and the fish are all healthy. My other parameters are also OK, nitrites 0, ph 6.4, ammonia 0. I have a phospate remover because our tap water has very high phosphates. I usually have a schedule of cleaning the tank (gravel vac) every 3 weeks with about a 20% water change.

Why can't I get my nitrates down? I know that once this mess is cleaned up I am not going to add any phosphates or nitrates when I fertilize. Right now I am using Seachem Excel and iron only until my nitrates are down to 20.

Any suggestions?


----------



## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

If you do multiple, serial water changes without adding nitrates, the levels should come down. Try 50% water changes - after 4 of those, that should bring your nitrates down to a decent level. If you over-feed your fish that's fully stocked, that can add to the nitrates....otherwise it should come down soon....


----------



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Is your tank cycled? Have you allowed all the right bacteria to colonize?


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

My tank better be cycled, it's almost 3 years old!! 

It is also a 90 gallon tank. So, the 50% water change will be OK for the fish?? I really don't think I overfeed. I also have some amono shrimp to help clean up. They are always stealing the algae wafers.


----------



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You can always add some fast growing stem plants. 25% planted is not a lot. BTW I do 50% water changes all the time. My fish are very healthy.


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

blang said:


> After using PPS-Pro fertilizing for the first time and after the first week, I decided to test the nitrates as was recommended by a senior member because my tank is not fully planted. I looked at the test tube and the solution was a very dark red. Before I started the program my nitrates were about 20. I immediately did a 40% water change, waited a day and tested again; no change It's been a week of daily water changes probably between 20-25% and the nitrates are still very high. I cleaned the sump, filter, overflow and of course the substrate. Everytime I turned on the filter after the water change a lot of muck came into the tank. The last time I did the water change, it looked pretty clear.
> 
> I took a sample of my tank water to the LFS and they confirmed that my nitrates were very high. I have a fully stocked tank with about 25% of the tank planted. Right now, the water looks very clear and the fish are all healthy. My other parameters are also OK, nitrites 0, ph 6.4, ammonia 0. I have a phospate remover because our tap water has very high phosphates. I usually have a schedule of cleaning the tank (gravel vac) every 3 weeks with about a 20% water change.
> 
> ...


With PPS you only add 7 ppm of NO3 per week. If your NO3 went from 20 to infinity you are either adding too much NO3 or something is dead in your tank. My feeling is the former. My feeling is that you have somehow not made your solutions correctly.

I'd recommend checking how you made your stock solutions and remake them. Don't add any more fertilizers until your NO3 is down below 20 ppm. Do as many water changes as you feel comfortable with until the NO3 drops.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I am not sure that it was only the fertilizing as their was a lot of plant stuff coming out of the filter. There shouldn't be any dead bodies as any fish that have died (which is very few), have always been recovered. My fish are a pretty good size so it is easy to take inventory. In any event, I'm not going to add nitrates or phosphates when everything is back to normal. I really think that I mixed the solution correctly and only dosed as suggested. In fact, I dosed half of the amount during the first couple of days. But in any event, I did discard the solution and will plan on only dosing Excel, flourish, flouish iron and create a solution of potassium. I want to be very conservative as I don't want this problem to happen again.

I posted a question to Seachem and they advised me that it was OK to continue dosing excel and iron. Do you suggest that I stop that also until the nitrates are normal?

Thanks everyone for your help.


----------



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

well whats normal? There is no real danger in high nitrate levels. A lot of people with plants keep their nitrate level at 15 to 20 ppm. Every time you dig up the substrate, you are unearthing crud thats probably high in nitrate and dumping it into the water column. You said your filter is also dumping crud into the water... that will raise your nitrate levels too. I think you just need to let things settle down. Do a large water change and then leave things alone. If you have nitrifying bacteria in there it should break down the nitrate if the plants aren't using it.

Question is why aren't the plants using it? Either you have all slow growing plants or not enough light. Stem plants use up nitrate the fastest, but only if you have bright enough light and adequate C02. If you are lacking in those areas then the plants will not use the nitrate very fast or none at all.



> 25% planted is not a lot.


I agree. Thats part of the problem too. You don't have much plant mass vs fishload. What is that, 4 or 5 plants?


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I have 2.4 wpg but it is less because of the depth of the tank. My nitrates are probably around 
100 right now. About a month or so ago, it was 20. I have about 12-15 plants and floaters. I do have some stem plants, slow growers, moss balls, but mostly crypts. OK, here are some questions.

1. Should I do a gravel vac or just 50% water change? The last time I did a 20% water change without a gravel vac. Since I have done 7 waters changes should I just stop now and not do any for a period of time? What period of time should that be?

2. When should I test my nitrates again?

3. Should I start my fertilzing program (excel, flourish, iron and potassium) again or add nothing and wait until the nitrates are down?

I know my tank is "out of balance" but I still want to try to have live plants. The plants actually look pretty good, in fact, better than they have ever looked. I think the excel has really helped. I do have some algae which I think is gsa but it is not a major problem. However, I am realistic and realize that because of my "challenges" it will never look like a "beautiful planted tank" like a lot of the members have here. I will go out and buy some more plants and hopefully that will help bring down the nitrates. I am concerned for the fish as I will just be crushed if I lose any of them because of this problem.

thanks again for your help


----------



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

100ppm of nitrate, seriously? That is high enough to be toxic, and your nitrite is 0? This is really screwy, wierd. You sure you are not exaggerating just a little? I don't know where all that nitrate could be coming from.

I would forget about gravel vacs for a while, and do a 50% water change, wait a few days, test it again, take a sample to a store and have them test it to confirm the accuracey of your test kit.



> Everytime I turned on the filter after the water change a lot of muck came into the tank


Its not still doing that right? Did you rinse out the filter so there is no more muck to be released back into the aquarium? You didn't use soap or anything that would kill the bacteria right?

If you mostly have Cryps, I would stick to fertilizer tablets in the gravel, with just the occasional trace mineral additive to the water. Keep the daily addition of Excel going. As long as your nitrate is above 10ppm you don't need to add any more.


----------



## Riiz (Jul 19, 2008)

So did you start adding NO3 when your natural levels were already 20ppm? 

Cause I know in my tanks that have a high enough stocking level, I add maybe a 1/3 of the recommended EI dose for nitrate and phosphates, but I go full strength with K. But again I use alot of stems for their ability at sucking up nutrients and keeping my slow growers free of algae, as they are usually the centerpiece of the aquarium.


----------



## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

Ok i didn't see this suggested at a glance if it was im sorry, but try this. Run a cup of water Straight from the tap, and test the Nitrate in your tap water, it could be the problem.Also if you want to get Nitrates in the tank down, way i see it you got a couple options, Add fast growing plants as suggested above OR do your water changes with RO/DI water, Distilled water from the grocer or wal mart is a good replacement for RO/DI if you dont have access.


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

OhioPlantedtankguy said:


> Run a cup of water Straight from the tap, and test the Nitrate in your tap water, it could be the problem.


If your tap water has 100ppm nitrates, you have way more of a problem than your tank! Anything above about 20 ppm is considered contaminated and if your water comes from a public source it is in violation of Federal EPA rules and the water company would have had to notify you by mail that they were in violation.

If your water comes from a well and it is indeed 100 ppm you really need to do something about it fast!

Testing your water is not a bad idea as at least it can tell you what you can get to with enough water changes.

Change water every day and don't add anything to your tank without first testing it for NO3. (Its possible that one of your solutions is contaminated with lots of NO3).

This will get your nitrates down.


----------



## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

ray-the-pilot said:


> If your tap water has 100ppm nitrates, you have way more of a problem than your tank! Anything above about 20 ppm is considered contaminated and if your water comes from a public source it is in violation of Federal EPA rules and the water company would have had to notify you by mail that they were in violation.
> 
> If your water comes from a well and it is indeed 100 ppm you really need to do something about it fast!
> 
> ...


Just saying that if the tap is nitrate rich, doing water changes wont lower it. Even if the tap is 30ppm, the lowest you can get from a water change would be 30ppm. So you would need a more pure Source, RO/DI is one way to get that, so is Distilled. Also you could buy Kents Nitrate Sponge, that would help lower Nitrates.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...edia-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

OhioPlantedtankguy said:


> Just saying that if the tap is nitrate rich, doing water changes wont lower it. Even if the tap is 30ppm, the lowest you can get from a water change would be 30ppm. So you would need a more pure Source, RO/DI is one way to get that, so is Distilled. Also you could buy Kents Nitrate Sponge, that would help lower Nitrates.


Maybe I didn't make this clear. It is illegal for a water co to sell you water with 30 ppm NO3. By law it must be below 20 ppm and most likely it is around 10 ppm. So if your tap water has 30 ppm of nitrates you have a serious complaint with your water co. If you are getting water from a well, your well is contaminated and you should do something about it.

High nitrates in your tap water are a serious health concern that has nothing to do with keeping aquarium plants.


----------



## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Even if the tap water only has 5 ppm nitrates, this still could have led to the issue. A 90 gal tank very lightly planted may have been able to live on just that. So, everything added by fertilizing would just keep building up.

-Dave


----------



## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

davemonkey said:


> Even if the tap water only has 5 ppm nitrates, this still could have led to the issue. A 90 gal tank very lightly planted may have been able to live on just that. So, everything added by fertilizing would just keep building up.
> 
> -Dave


Thanks Dave that was the point i was getting at, if your plants are sucking up 1ppm nitrate per week, and your doing a weekly water change with the legal limit 20ppm water you are still going to have a build up of excess nitrates. Because you arent removing them, your simply adding more. I think RO/DI would be best in this situation, if you add 0ppm in your change water you can then Dilute whats already in the tank.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your comments. I tested my tap water and the nitrates are zero. I am going to do water changes at 50% with no gravel vac for the next couple of days. I will also go out and purchase some more plants. If I don't see any improvements after a couple of days, I will bring another water sample to my LFS to verify my findings. In addition, I will also look into getting the Kent Nitrate sponge and/or using RO water for my water changes. Thank goodness my fish are all doing well.

Robert, no exaggeration, my nitrates are 100. It was confirmed by my LFS when I brought in a water sample last week. I have a sump as my filtration system which I drained and cleaned the sponges and filter (no soap, just rinsed)

I am still a novice at this fertilizing and now have a much better understanding of what I did and how I need to move forward once this nitrate problem is resolved. I've learned so much from this website and all of the members who are trying to help me. I will keep you all posted.


----------



## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

blang said:


> Robert, no exaggeration, my nitrates are 100. It was confirmed by my LFS when I brought in a water sample last week. I have a sump as my filtration system which I drained and cleaned the sponges and filter (no soap, just rinsed)


I think we may have just found your cause and problem. A Sump is a Nitrate Factory, Most in SW use a sump in conjunction with a refugium packed full of Macro Algae to suck up the nitrates that the sump produces.

Sumps gather all the excess crud,fish food,fish waste etc and convert it from ammonia to Nitrite and then Nitrate(i think that's the order not 100% sure though) I have never ran a sump in Freshwater, but that isn't to say you should remove your sump, i think its a good idea for a planted tank considering the amount of nitrates it produces, i would get more plants, high light and Pressurized co2 if you can afford to and put that nitrate factory to work for you! If its within your budget that is.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

OhioPlantedtankguy said:


> I think we may have just found your cause and problem. A Sump is a Nitrate Factory, Most in SW use a sump in conjunction with a refugium packed full of Macro Algae to suck up the nitrates that the sump produces.
> 
> Sumps gather all the excess crud,fish food,fish waste etc and convert it from ammonia to Nitrite and then Nitrate(i think that's the order not 100% sure though) I have never ran a sump in Freshwater, but that isn't to say you should remove your sump, i think its a good idea for a planted tank considering the amount of nitrates it produces, i would get more plants, high light and Pressurized co2 if you can afford to and put that nitrate factory to work for you! If its within your budget that is.


What is a "refugium packed full of macro algae" Is this something I can add? I am not in a position of adding pressurized c02 at this time. I will talk to AH Supply and ask them if I can increase the lighting for my setup. I know then I will need to increase my excel dosing if the lighting is increased. However, I want to be careful not too increase it to a point that Excel alone is not going to be able to handle my lighting. In the meantime, I will definately go out and purchase some more plants.

Once question, how come the nitrates didn't go down when I cleaned the sump? Shouldn't it have had some effect on the situation?


----------



## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

blang said:


> What is a "refugium packed full of macro algae" Is this something I can add? I am not in a position of adding pressurized c02 at this time. I will talk to AH Supply and ask them if I can increase the lighting for my setup. I know then I will need to increase my excel dosing if the lighting is increased. However, I want to be careful not too increase it to a point that Excel alone is not going to be able to handle my lighting. In the meantime, I will definately go out and purchase some more plants.
> 
> Once question, how come the nitrates didn't go down when I cleaned the sump? Shouldn't it have had some effect on the situation?


refugium packed full of macro algae would be a separate tank or area in the Sump, that has Cheato,Chulpra(sp?) and other Salt water Algaes in it, it is normally lit either 24/7 or Opposite of the tank lighting.

you could do this in FW to an extent, but it isn't the greatest idea, because it would out compete your display tank for what your "pretty plants" need to grow. I think your best bet until you can afford higher lighting would be to add as many fast growing plants as it takes to bring your nitrates down.Say 50 to 75% of the tank planted. Or Nitrate Sponge but the thing with nitrate sponge is that it works FAST and you could literally go from 100ppm one day to under 10ppm the next, and as we all know sudden changes are bad for fish tanks. If your gonna use nitrate sponge do it Slowly IE start with 1/4 cup media(cheap Nylon Foot socks make a great media bag and are .28 cents a pair at wal mart!) Add it to a high flow area, ideally where the water enters the sump.And slowly up the amount.


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

davemonkey said:


> Even if the tap water only has 5 ppm nitrates, this still could have led to the issue. A 90 gal tank very lightly planted may have been able to live on just that. So, everything added by fertilizing would just keep building up.
> 
> -Dave


True but not applicable in this case.

When you dose with PPS you only add 1 ppm of NO3 per day. To go from 20 - 100 would take a few months not two weeks. In two weeks you couldn't add more than 14 ppm NO3.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I did my 50% water change last night and tested the nitrates this morning. It was still red but appeared a touch lighter. At this point I am going to say it looks closer to 80 ppm. I will probably bring a water sample to the lfs today as long as I am going in to purchase some plants. 

I think my fish are lovin' the water changes. The yoyos were swimming in circles along the end of the tank last night. They used to do this when they were little. When I turned on the filter after filling the tank, the water looked great. Even my daughter commented how much better it looked.

I will try to do another 50% water change this afternoon.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

My LFS unfortunately confirmed that my nitrates are at 80ppm. They said to rinse out the bio balls in tank water but when I took a closer look, they seemed pretty cleaned so I'm not going to do that for now. I purchased some plants and now my tank is about 50% planted. I'm going to wait a few days to see how things go and then test again and probably do another water change. I will keep you posted.


----------



## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

blang said:


> My LFS unfortunately confirmed that my nitrates are at 80ppm. They said to rinse out the bio balls in tank water but when I took a closer look, they seemed pretty cleaned so I'm not going to do that for now. I purchased some plants and now my tank is about 50% planted. I'm going to wait a few days to see how things go and then test again and probably do another water change. I will keep you posted.


Did you get Proven fast growers? Anachris is great for "cleaning" up excess nutrients in the water. And the great thing is it is usually so cheap that when your done(if you dont like it that is) you can just pitch it(properly freeze it in a baggie then into the garbage never into local waterways)


----------



## overboard (Mar 11, 2008)

The shrimp are surviving the high nitrates?


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I don't remember seeing anachris there but I will go back to my LFS and see if they have any. They recommended that I get more crypts and ferns (which I didn't) so I was on my own. As I was moving the plants around I found that two of my dwarf sags had babies. 

One of the things I forgot to mention is that the tank is in front of a large picture window. So even though my lighting might not be very high, the room does get sun. In fact, before I started dosing Excel, I had to cut down the lighting to 6 hours a day to get rid of the gsa. It is now on for 7 hours a day. 

All my shrimp are doing great. I even found one in the sump when I cleaned it last week. I only have five so it is not too hard to keep track of them.

One of my knowledgeable contacts at the LFS thought that iron that is used by the plants, eventually turns into nitrates. I was dosing flourish iron every other day because the test kit said I had zero iron in my water. Any comments?


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> One of my knowledgeable contacts at the LFS thought that iron that is used by the plants, eventually turns into nitrates. I was dosing flourish iron every other day because the test kit said I had zero iron in my water. Any comments?


If this is one the more 'knowledgeable' folks at the lfs, I'd suggest you find another lfs. That's NOT true.

Iron test kits are virtually worthless. Do not dose iron based on test kit readings.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Iron cannot turn into nitrates. From what I read, any iron you dose tends to be immediately taken up by the plants, so a few minutes later, the tank will test near zero iron. It is better, in my opinion, to dose all nutrients per a fixed schedule, and not try to adjust the dosage every day or every week. Check the stickies in the fertilizing forum.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I went to the lfs and I didn't see any other plants I could add. I'll keep on looking but we'll see if rhe plants I have now start lowering my nitrates. I would expect that this will be a slow process. 

My contact at the lfs knows a lot about fish but seems to be lacking in the care of plants. He has given me lots of great advice when I have had sick fish but I just wanted to get his opinion on my high nitrate problem. I had never heard of iron turning into nitrates so I was just curious and thought I would ask here. I have a couple of other aquarium stores that I go to and some of the guys at Aquarium Adventure seem to be pretty good in their knowledge of plants. However, most of my information has been gained by talking to you guys.

When I was dosing PPO, I was dosing the NPK formula daily and flourish Excel, Iron and Flourish Comprehensive as suggested by Seachem. That is why I was dosing iron every other day. 

But right now, I am just dosing Excel to encourage growth and trying to get this nitrate problem resolved. I will probably test the water again on Monday just to make sure it hasn't gotten worse. My game plan then, if all goes well, is to do another water change next week. Of course this will change if I see the fish stressed at all.

Thanks again for all your comments.


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

I forgot to suggest this sooner.

When you have very high test results, you can get a better estimate by diluting the sample with distilled water.

If you take one teaspoon of your tank water and add three teaspoons of pure distilled water you will reduce the 80 ppm water to 20 ppm. 

Try this and check your NO3. Then you can multiply the result by 4 to estimate the amount of NO3 in your tank water. 

If the result of the diluted sample is still dark you can dilute it as much as you need to get it close to 20 ppm.

BTW the the resulting dilution factor is how much water you will have to change to get your tank to 20 ppm.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

A couple of questions....If the first test is still high in nitrates, do I dilute the tested solution or do I start a fresh solution and retest?

If my tap water is 0 nitrates, how come I need to use distilled water?

If I have to dilute to get the results I need, I will keep track on what I do as I will need your help to analyize.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> ....If the first test is still high in nitrates, do I dilute the tested solution or do I start a fresh solution and retest?


Dilute a fresh solution, and re test that.



> If my tap water is 0 nitrates, how come I need to use distilled water?


Assuming your test kit is accurate, then no you would not need d-water.



> If I have to dilute to get the results I need, I will keep track on what I do as I will need your help to analyize.


We'll be here to help, but it's really quite simple. If you diilute the original in half, then you multiply the final result by 2 to get an accurate reading. If you dilute by a third (1 part tank water plus 2 parts tap water), then you would multiply your results by 3, etc...


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

blang said:


> A couple of questions....If the first test is still high in nitrates, do I dilute the tested solution or do I start a fresh solution and retest?
> 
> If my tap water is 0 nitrates, how come I need to use distilled water?
> 
> If I have to dilute to get the results I need, I will keep track on what I do as I will need your help to analyize.


You can dilute the first test to find out approximately how much you will need to diluted the tank water. Then dilute the tank water with tap water and repeat the test.

If you have enough test reagents, you might want to do 1-2, 1-4, 1-8, etc. The first one to go below 20 ppm tells you how many 50% water changes you need to do. (If something is still producing NO3 in your tank you will have to do still more).


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Good News!!

I did the 1-2 ratio and the test results showed the nitrates at 20ppm. So I decided to just test my tank water alone. And the results are.........drum roll........nitrates are now 40 ppm.

I am relieved. At least I am now out of the danger zone. I will wait a week from my last water change and then do another 40-50% water change. This will hopefully bring me down to 20 ppm.

In the meantime, I am going to be very conservative and slowly start fertilizing without nitrates or phosphates and see how it goes.

All I can say is THANK YOU ALL for helping me get through this mess. My next post will hopefully be in the fertilizing section and not in this thread.


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

blang said:


> Good News!!
> 
> I did the 1-2 ratio and the test results showed the nitrates at 20ppm. So I decided to just test my tank water alone. And the results are.........drum roll........nitrates are now 40 ppm.


My faith in science is restored! I wish I had remembered the dilution technique sooner. I actually use it regularly when I get high results.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

This is a confusing thread! If you have even a moderately planted tank, with moderate lighting, CO2, and add NO3 with an appropriate amount of phosphate and traces, the NO3 will be gone in a few days, because the plants will eat it up. You say this is a 90 gallon tank, and you are using Excel for carbon. Excel is dosed at 1 ml per 10 gallons, as I recall, so I assume you are dosing 9 ml per day of Excel? You don't mention lights, or I didn't find it, so how much light is on that tank? You did say you had been using a phosphate remover because you believe you have high phosphate.

Well, if you remove the phosphate, the plants cannot grow, so they won't use the nitrates and the concentration will certainly go up. Unless you have a low light tank, an el natural tank, the fish poop will not provide nearly enough phosphate or nitrate for the plants.

I think it would be well to start this over: how much light? CO2? A pic of the tank or good description of the plant density and types of plants. Then it will be possible to troubleshoot for you. Right now it isn't. And, dosing without adding nitrates or phosphates for a non-el natural tank, unless it is a very low light tank, with few plants, will not work at all. If it is a very low light tank with very few plants, it can be treated as a fish only tank, which doesn't fit any fertilizer dosing schemes here.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Sorry for the confusion but I will summarize for you as the answers are scattered throughout this thread as the other members asked me questions.

Lighting is 2.4 wpg. It is a tall tank so the lighting is actually less. However, the tank is in front of a large picture window which gets quite a bit of sun. The lights are on 7 hours a day.

My filter is a sump setup.

My tank is about 50% planted right now with mostly crypts. It also has a few small swords, 3 moss balls, anubius, dwarf sag and various other stem plants. I also have floating plants that grow like crazy. The tank is fully stocked with fish and five amano shrimp. If I can figure out how to download a picture, I will try to do it within the next couple of days.

I was dosing Excel daily (9ml), Flourish iron x3 wk, Flourish Comp x2 wk. I then started dosing PPO macro solution on a daily basis. I had planned to change totally to the PPO system but since I had some of the Flourish fertilizers in the house, I decided to finish my supply. From other posts I have read, it seemed that a lot of people started that way, In any event, I started half dose for a couple of days and then I went full dose. After one week and because of my light plant load (it was probably 25-30% then) and seeing an increase of algae, I decided to test my nitrates. That's when I stopped dosing and asked for help. 

My tap water has very high phosphates. It was tested a couple of years ago when I had a large amount of hair algae so I don't remember what the numbers were. Once I put a phosphate remover in, the hair algae disappeared and I haven't had a problem since. I don't know what the phosphate level is right now with the remover. I plan to bring samples of my tap and tank water into the LFS to test. But my area is known to have very high phosphates. I can let you know when I bring in the samples next week.

My tap water has zero nitrates. After 7 water changes and cleaning the sump, filter and anything else that could be wiped down and adding more plants, my nitrates dropped from 100 ppm to 40 ppm. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for your help.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

PPS Pro doses 1 ppm of nitrate per day, so it is highly unlikely that that could be the source of high nitrate in your tank water.

Tap water should contain less than 5 ppm of phosphates, per WHO standards, so I doubt that your tap water contains more than that. And, 5 ppm of phosphates is higher than we want, but not nearly high enough to be a problem for plants or fish. Phosphate will not cause algae in a planted aquarium.

2.4 watts per gallon, assuming that is with AH Supply quality bulbs and reflectors, even for a 90High tank is enough that CO2 should be used. Excel might be adequate, but it likely isn't. Having that much light without having fast growing plants in the tank is very likely to lead to algae problems, at least until the tank has developed nitrifying bacteria colonies in balance with the ammonia produced by the tank. Even then, algae problems are likely to occur.

I don't think your high nitrate level could have been caused by the fertilizing per PPS Pro. If you have big bodied fish, and feed them excessively, that might be the cause. Also, have you used fertilizer tabs or other substrate fertilizing? That could introduce nitrate to the water also.

A photo of the tank would still be very useful for deciding if your plant load is a possible problem.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Yes, I agree that it probably wasn't just PPS PRO that was totally at fault. I did test the water before I started dosing and the nitrates were 20 ppm. I am guessing that it was a combination of a lot of things but the problem appeared after starting the program.

I will have to get back to you on the phosphate level. I understand that a lot of experts are saying that phosphates don't cause algae. However, adding the phosphate remover helped me keep get rid of the hair algae and keep it away so I can only go by my personal experience.

My fish are large bodied but I reallly don't think I am over feeding. I was on a 3 week cleaning schedule and probably was only doing a 20% water change. I don't really want to change that schedule once the nitrates are at a good level, but I will increase my percentage of the water I change.

I am not in a position to set up a CO2 preasurized system right now. I understand I will have to deal with some algae but Excel is all I can do at this time. My light is from AH Supply.

My substrate is half flourite, half gravel. I have never used any fertilizer tabs.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You really do have too much light to go without CO2. If you raise the light fixture about 6 inches, to start out, you may reduce the intensity enough to do well with Excel as a carbon source. That will allow the plants to grow at a healthy pace with adequate carbon and light supply. Then, by dosing a complete fertilizer menu, nitrates, phosphates, and trace elements, per PPS Pro, if you don't want to do weekly 50% water changes, you should be able to have a nice healthy planted tank. And, that is the goal most of us aim at.

Now, a few more questions: What fish do you have in the tank? And, how much do you feed them and what foods? What is in the sump filter? Are any of the bulbs in the light fixture actinic?

At this point, I think you have plenty of light, probably too much, so if you provide an appropriate amount of Excel along with the other fertilizers, the plants should grow relatively fast.

The excess of nitrates have to be from either:
Excess fish food:
Excess fish poop:
Far too much nitrate in the PPS Pro solution:
Something rotting in the substrate or in the sump:
Something else in the sump.

All you need to do is eliminate each of those as a problem. This shouldn't be too hard to do.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Fish:

4 Dennison Barbs
3 Yoyo's
2 Bosmania Rainbow (1 Male, 1 Female)
2 New Guinee Rainbows (Males)
1 Rainbow shark
2 Bristlenoses (1 adult, 1 juvenile)
3 Melanie Cory Cats
3 Sae's
5 Amano Shrimp

I feed them pellets in the morning. Enough so that all or most of it is eaten before it reaches the ground. Evening is 3 1/4 wafers. My Shrimp are not shy and will join the fish during dinner time so I never see any leftover food. I used to feed less but I lost a couple of cory cats because they weren't getting enough food so that the 3 1/4 wafers seem to be enough for them to not starve.

There is nothing special in the sump except the pump, heater, bio balls and a sponge. 

The lights are from AH Supply. 2 55w 5500K and 2 55w 6700K Compact Bulbs. I don't think any of the bulbs are actinic. Isn't that used mostly for Salt Water Tanks? One set goes on in the morning and an hour later another goes on. The same thing happens in the evening, 2 go off and an hour later the other two go off. So right now, all four bulbs are on for only 5 hours a day while only one set is on for another 2 hours. The lights are built into the lid so they can't be raised. The only thing I can do is cut the hours back to 6 which I used to do before I started dosing excel.

I really don't think I am overfeeding. The sump is very clean. I weighed all the chemicals very carefully so I am pretty comfortable in saying that it was mixed correctly. There was a lot of muck coming out of the tubing when I turned on the filter so that might have been part of the problem. It is now clean as I wiped and pulled out a lot of stuff from the overflow. Last year, my plecos were breeding like crazy so I had many little babies in the sump. They were removed several months ago and sump has been cleaned a few times since then. 

Hope this information answers your questions.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Your lights are the correct bulbs, and the lighting schedule looks conservative, so I don't see a problem there. The fish load looks ok for a 90 gallon tank, so I don't see a problem there, either. And, the feeding you do, while heavy, doesn't seem to be heavy enough to accumulate excess feed in the substrate. If the sponge filter isn't rotten, or loaded with dead fish or shrimp, I can't see that being a problem.

I'm left with wondering if the real problem is your nitrate test kit. Those kits are pretty cheap, so you could get another one, preferably a different brand. I did that when my GH readings seemed odd, and it took three kits before I got one that read a reasonable number.

Right now I don't do any testing at all on my tank, other than with the drop checker to be sure I have an adequate amount of CO2. I just enjoy the plant growth, struggle to keep algae problems controlled, and let the water be what ever it is. But, I do continuous water changes of 10 to 15% per day, so I can afford to ignore the water. I suggest you try not testing at all. Just follow a routine dosing system, with whatever water changes are dictated by that system. Then if you get plant problems or algae problems try to address those problems. Meanwhile, it is always better to have a heavily planted tank than a lightly planted one. And, doing weekly pruning is usually mandatory for good tank management, unless you use low enough light intensity to slow down the growth.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I will just keep an eye on things and see how it goes. I did confirm the test results with a sample that I brought to the LFS. I will keep you posted. thanks for your help.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

Here is a picture of my tank:


----------



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Your tanks looks healthy. I would not consider your tank 50% planted. Your plants are all pretty much slow growers except for the hornwort. I'm sure the hornwort will help with your nitrates. I think you could use a lot more fast growing stem plants. Looks like you have a lot of sediment built up in ther gravel as well - could just be algae that I'm seeing... Look at the for sale forum here and get a plant package for fast growing stems. It's worth it.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

It also looks like some of your plants are tied in bunches and planted that way. It works far better to plant them as individual stems. I would call your tank a lightly planted one, mostly low light, slow growing plants. And, the lighting doesn't look like 3 watts per gallon, but more like half of that. Is there a glass or plastic "lid" on the tank, between the lights and the water? If that is dirty it cuts down on the intensity a lot. It doesn't look like any of the plants are growing very well, but that is hard to tell from a photo.

Incidentally, that is a very, very beautiful tank you have. Do you know who the manufacturer is? It looks like a piece of fine furniture.

EDIT: Going back and rereading this thread, I don't see where you said what the GH and KH of the tank water is. One element that is sometime lacking is magnesium. If you have a very low GH, or even a GH made up entirely of calcium, that could greatly restrict the ability of the plants to grow. An extremely high KH might also be a problem, but I doubt you having that.

If nothing else, this has been a very interesting problem to think through. I just wish the answer was easier to find.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

The manufacturer of my tank is a company called "My Husband". He built it for me out of teak. It took 6 months to plan as he had never done anything like this before. And of course, I kept on requesting changes, which didn't help. Then it took about 4 months to actually build and setup.

Yes, there is a glass covering the tank and it is very dirty. What can I use to clean it? I can't get away with anything. You guys have hawk eyes!! 

I will also try to see what I can do about the gravel. I think it is mostly algae but I'll check on it when the lights are on. I'll also try to wipe the glass down or scrape it. It also may be the flourite but I'll work on it. 

I don't know what my gh and kh are. I plan to order some test kits. I am a little confused on which ones to get as everyone has their own opinion. I can't really afford Lemont. Any suggestions or just pick one.

If I don't keep the stem plants tied, they will all become floaters. My fish like to pull them out.
One of the problems is, is that the tank is so darn deep that it is really hard for me to plant. I use a ladder but one of these days, I'm going to fall in. I do have some tools but I'm not very coordinated.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Your husband could do all of us a great favor by posting a description of how he made that setup in our DIY forum. It is truly a beautiful job.

Planting stem plants is the easiest if you use long tweezers, say 12" long ones. You just grip the end of the stem and shove it all the way down to the bottom glass through the substrate, then wiggle it a bit to let the substrate flow around the stem and slowly withdraw the tweezers. After doing a few stems it gets very easy. And, when they are planted that deep it is much harder for the fish to uproot them.

I don't use anything between my lights and the water. I had the lightbulbs about 2-3" above the water for many months, and never did have a problem, other than the heating of the water by the lights. That gets you the maximum of light from the bulbs into the water.

You can phone your local water company and they should be able to tell you how much calcium and magnesium is in the water - it will be a range of values typical for the whole year. From that you can tell if you need to add calcium or magnesium. And, it doesn't cost anything!


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I really think I need to keep the glass there as some of my fish are jumpers. I usually see or hear a fish jump once or twice a week. I would hate to see what would happened if they hit one of the bulbs. :bounce:

I can check online and get back to you on the parameters.


----------



## Edward (May 25, 2004)

hoppycalif said:


> And, the lighting doesn't look like 3 watts per gallon, but more like half of that. Is there a glass or plastic "lid" on the tank, between the lights and the water?


 Good catch hoppycalif, I can't believe people still use the evaporation glass on planted aquariums. It just kills the light spectrum and intensity. Remove it and don't worry about your fish jumping high, they will learn.


----------



## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Blang,
Why don't you test your own water when you need to? Don't rely on a fish store, you can do it yourself. I use cheap Hagen Nutrafin test kits, easy to use, accurate enough for an aquarium needs and never had a bad one. It is hilarious how many posts it took to figure out how to remove high NO3 from a tank with water changes. Water dilution. For every bit of fish food you drop in the tank you need to trim and remove a bucket of plants. Fish food adds NO3 and PO4 to the tank and plants use it to grow. The amount of plants you have in the tank now may support about one fish, that's it. The rest of the fish waste will need to be removed by water changes. The rate of water changes you can find by monitoring NO3 levels.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Edward said:


> Good catch hoppycalif, I can't believe people still use the evaporation glass on planted aquariums. It just kills the light spectrum and intensity. Remove it and don't worry about your fish jumping high, they will learn.


Edward, I am one of those people who use a cover glass. I'd sure that it does affect the light, but my plants grow satisfactorily. I should say that most of my plants are low to moderate light plants.

I use the glass to control evaporation. I have hard tap water, and replacing the evaporated water in the several tanks that I have would cause the hardness to rise to unacceptable levels. I could use softened water but, as I said, the plants grow.

Bill


----------



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

blang said:


> I really think I need to keep the glass there as some of my fish are jumpers. I usually see or hear a fish jump once or twice a week. I would hate to see what would happened if they hit one of the bulbs. :bounce:
> 
> I can check online and get back to you on the parameters.


I have my tank completely covered. Absolutely no direct exposure of lights to water. My plants grow like weeds. I am really more interested in fish so the .8% loss of light doesn't bother me.


----------



## blang (Jan 4, 2006)

I just spent the last 45 minutes cleaning my glass lids. I do not want to take the chance of one of my fish hitting the lights or jumping out of the tank. My fish come first before any of my plants.

Tomorrow, I am going to try to tackle the algae/muck around the tank.


----------

