# Mr. Amano's approach at lighting (from AGA)



## Gomer

One thing that Amano mentioned at ADA seemed to strike a fancy with several people. It seams that he only uses really high light for only a small part of the lighting period.

For example: On the ~ 50g tank (90x45x45cm) that was demo'd at AGA, there was a fixture that had independend lights: 2x36 PC and 1x150 MH. Amano said that he would run the PC's about 10-12hours a day an only run the MH for 3-4 hours. I forget the whole explaination, but it had to do with supplying really high lighting only for a period of time that the plants would be able to fully utilize it.

Anyone use this sort of lighting cycle etc?

I was thinking of a 3x55 AH setup on a new tank that I am saving up for (24x16x16in). I would run a 1x55 10,000K 10-12hr a day and in the middle of the day turn on 2x55AH 9325K's for 4 hours. These lights of course would not sit directly on the tank, but would be around 10-12" above the tank. The outside reflectors would be angled inward to keep most of the light into the tank and out of the room.


----------



## JLudwig

Gomer said:


> One thing that Amano mentioned at ADA seemed to strike a fancy with several people. It seams that he only uses really high light for only a small part of the lighting period.


I know Amano did say that (thru Tomoko), but maybe Oliver can chime in here, he (Oliver) told me that Amano was only doing that for the big tank is his house, he seemed to think the tanks in the gallery are run full blast all day. :?:

Jeff


----------



## Gomer

I do recall that as well, but his explaination should be applicable to other setups. The translation being: Able to keep high light plants in healthy conditions while only having limited high light ..which also translates to healthy yet slower stem plant growth....which again seems to translate to less algea

(glad to have you posting Jeff. Also, if you can PM me the name of your Wifes company, I'd appreciate it. Never know when we will get funding for a new laser  ...one of our Continuums is troublesome to say the least)


----------



## tanVincent

Hi,

That is what we did as well. We have a 90 x 45 x 60 tank and its running on a 56w PC and 150w MH. The PC is running on 11 hours and MH on 4 hours.

Cheers
Vincent


----------



## SCMurphy

Dude,

My 75 runs like that, sorta, all bulbs are ODNO T8s. Two bulbs come on for 2 hours, then another comes on, runs with 3 bulbs for 2 hours, then a fourth bulb lights up and it runs 4 bulbs for 3 hours, then back to 3 bulbs for 2 hours and then 2 bulbs for the last 2 hours.


----------



## Gomer

I remember that clearly now It doesn't seem widely practiced so I am trying to get other opinions on it.

*....7 tanks down there...and I didn't manage to sneak away with a single plant* :twisted:


----------



## SCMurphy

Gomer said:


> *....7 tanks down there...and I didn't manage to sneak away with a single plant* :twisted:


I didn't have anything you wanted.


----------



## IUnknown

At 12" from the top of the water, I wouldn't think that PC's would not have much effect. At first I thought the PC's were just to balance the light out. I thought PC's had to be installed close to the water surface, because they didn't have much reach. Maybe the MH are used to help ground cover, and the PC's for stem plants?


----------



## Gomer

SCMurphy said:


> Gomer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *....7 tanks down there...and I didn't manage to sneak away with a single plant* :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't have anything you wanted.
Click to expand...

more like I don't even have room for the plants I brought home LOL

You had a couple interesting ones!


----------



## Robert B

I kind of have the same thing going on. I have 3 ODNO over my 30 gallon. Two of them run for 12 hours and the 3rd tube runs for a couple hours in the middle of the light cycle. With those three tubes on at the same time it is A LOT of light. 

Robert. (bobo31)


----------



## pineapple

In several of the The Aquatic Gardner (TAG) issues in which an ADA aquarium is featured, the statistics information states a 10 hour lighting period.

Did anyone take a photo of the lighting system? I mean a photo from the bottom upward to show the placement of the bulbs and reflectors?

Where was the timer located? Remote to the bulb fixture?

Andrew Cribb


----------



## Raul-7

It seems interesting, but what's wrong with everyone's current lighting setup...aren't you already growing healthy plants. Why fix something when it's not broken? :?


----------



## gnatster

> Did anyone take a photo of the lighting system? I mean a photo from the bottom upward to show the placement of the bulbs and reflectors?


While I didn't take any pictures of the bottom side here is the setup. Centered in the fixture is 1 150W HQI (unsure of K) bulb housed in a hammered finish reflector. On each long end as a 36W? CF bulb with the refelctors slightly canted toward the center. A sheet of glass protects the bottom. The CF ballasts are housed internally while the HQI electronic ballast is remote. There was no timer, nor any switches, when plugged in the lights came on.

The beauty of the system is the thought that went to into the designs of seemingly mundane parts. The brackets that hold the pole to the stand are also stainless with the bottom bracket designed to have a foot to keep the bottom of the pole off the floor. The tops of the poles are notched to accept the cross brace. The cross brace is held in by set screws. The brace is also designed with a slight curve to prevent the weight of the fixture from pulling it down. Clips are provided that fit over the pole and wire perfectly allowing the wires to be routed across and down the poles. A small bubble level that works on two planes is also included. The only design area I was not thrilled with was the method that cable was hung and secured. The design does not lend it's self to easy adjustability.


----------



## pineapple

I agree with you. The beauty is in the thought that went into the design (also into the design of many other ADA instruments.)

The lights are always hung relatively high above the water surface allowing the viewer unimpeded access to the water surface. I wonder how much light is dissipated before it gets into the water column.

In the ADA catalogue I have from 2002 there are two types of double ended MH bulbs used in these fixtures: 8000K and 10,000K.

Andrew Cribb


----------



## Gomer

Raul, one major possible gain is the ability to grow high light plants as if they are in high light, yet without the high light growth rates.


----------



## gnatster

The 2004 Catalog also lists 8000 and 10,000K MH bulbs with the CF being 32W.

One thing that also struck me was the quality of packaging. Everything went back into the boxes with no issues, including the protective packing. Someone said it reminded them of the way high end cosmetics are packaged. It's quite obvious a lot of thought goes into both the function and design.


----------



## gpodio

Here's a photo I took of the fixture, while the MH bulb had a reflector I don't recall seeing one on the PCs:










And the MH ballast:










I think Gomer hit the nail on the head, using this lighting period you can satisfy all the high light plants and penetrate deeply into the lower layers (you all saw the density of the background Amano planted!) yet at the same time reduce the daily growth making the aquascape last a little longer.

During the presentation Mr. Amano stated that you want to have a very high rate of photosynthesis for 3 hours or so each day and the rest of the day you want to stop it completely, having lighting only for your own viewing pleasure. I also had the chance to talk to Amano briefly about the lighting period and he said that in the tank he setup, he would have the MH on for 3 hours as well and the power compacts for 6 hours before and after the 3 hour intense period. He said this greatly helps eliminate algae problems.

Amano's monster tank for example has 4 or 6 (we heard both numbers, perhaps a translation error) 40W T12 for the "Viewing" light and I don't recall how many watts of MH spot lights for the 3 hour growth period.

So he's using around 1.5WPG for the first 6 hours, followed by 4.5WPG for 3 hours and finally another 6 hours of 1.5WPG. He also only injects CO2 during the intense 3 hour period.

And a brief chat with our very own Tom Barr revealed that he too is using a similar lighting period.... Tom are you holding out on us?? C'mon give us the scoop :wink:

Anyway, needless to say the moment I got home I reprogrammed the lighting on two of the tanks to give it a shot. I would love to reduce pruning frequency and still maintain the plants I have. Perhaps this shorter cycle may also help my anubias that get some spot algae on the leaves under 4WPG.

Giancarlo


----------



## Gomer

I believe the giant tank had 16 or 18 150watt MH's


----------



## plantbrain

Not holding out, just something I do with MH's and PC if they have a combo.

Pretty pricey for small tanks and I don't care for large fixtures over an open top tank. A small HQI is about all I like.
These run for 10hours.

I run many PC tanks at 10-11hours.
No issues.

Amano uses the Diffusers, while they are nice looking, I don't like crap in the tank. I also like something I can control better without a solenoid.
I also like an active additional flow of water when the plants are growing.
Seems they are more trooble to control the CO2 levels.

Less light is a way to provide more wiggle room as far as low CO2, nutrients etc. So you get less algae.

Plants will do fine at 1.5-2 w/gal also. They do not need the spike, but it can make some plants do well/grow faster also. 

I typically use one or the other on small tanks(MH or PC).
Large tanks can use both like Amano suggested. I use them for 4-5hours, 3 would likely do okay also.

I use this for a few reasons: longer bulb life(MH's cost $$), less heat, less electric, simply don't need that much for that long to grow plants etc.

But a MH HQI + PC set up ain't cheap. 
Well, ask the Senske's
A couple folks in the Bay have something like that light.

I use a HQI 150 on a 20 gal and have a pair of 30 gal cubes coming up.
My older 20's have 110w, PC's, 11 hour cycles.

There was no reflector onm the PC lights.
Bad design.

Less light in general reduces algae in virtually all cases.
That's something George Booth Claus, myself have said for sometime.
Adding a little bit in the middle is not too much removed from this concept.

I can still have low/simliar algae presence at high light(5.5w/gal) and full photoperoids(11hours and no algae, but you need to dose more often and make sure the CO2 is good.

Giancarlo, add more PO4(or CO2) and the spot algae will go away on the Anubias.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## pineapple

Giancarlo - thanks for posting the photos. Images are helpful in understanding ADA aquaria. It would be nice to see another thread started with some comments on the equipment along with photos.

Andrew Cribb


----------



## gnatster

The MH lighting over the monster tank is 16 150W HQI. It's also placed rather high over the tank at about 3m if I remember correctly. Also looked to be 2 banks of 8 lights each. Given the tank has a 4 x 1.5m foot print that gives 4 bulbs to light an area of 1 x 1.5m.

Correct me if I am wrong but something also led me to believe there are skylights over the tank too, but I am not 100% sure on that. 

Pineapple, I did take some shots of the parts when we set up the tank. I'll try to get them posted soon.


----------



## gpodio

But the idea of having certain high light plants growing well yet slowed down a bit is very interesting to me, specially now that I have less time to dedicate to my tanks.

Regarding the anubias spots, I can't say it's a problem, only when I neglect the tanks for some reason. I keep a high level of both CO2 and PO4 but it's been a while since I've played with the levels in this tank so I'll give higher levels a shot. At the moment I'm around 25ppm CO2 and 0,1-0,5 PO4. I remember the fun I had experimenting with levels last year, back then my goals were different and so was my method of maintaining the tank, looks like it's time to do it all over again 

Andrew, I took a lot of photos of the equipment, as did Jay and I'm sure many others. But I also got the ADA catalog which probably shows them off a lot better. My main interest is in the substrates and tanks themselves, you can tell the bead of silicon wasn't finished off with someone's finger like the tanks we're used to :mrgreen: 

Quality was evident throughout the entire line of products!

Giancarlo


----------



## gpodio

Yes the back part of the ceiling, over the sump so to speak, is open so natural light also helps illuminate the tank. Not to mention the open sides of the room.

I watched Amano's presentation again on video and it's just amazing the amount of work that whent into just the supporting base of this tank and the "under tank" heating and all.... probably the most earthquake proof structure in Japan :wink: 

Giancarlo


----------



## Raul-7

gpodio said:


> I watched Amano's presentation again on video and it's just amazing the amount of work that whent into just the supporting base of this tank and the "under tank" heating and all....
> 
> Giancarlo


So Amano believes that heating cables work? Or is that another way to fill his wallet.. :wink:

As far as the lighting, Coralife makes a very similar fixture called Aqualight Pro only it comes with lunar lights and cooling fans.


----------



## gnatster

This "Under Tank" heating is unlike any you have ever seen. In the concrete base that support the tank was laid tubes that hot water passes thru effectively heating the entire floor under the tank. I think its called Underfloor Radiant Heat. 

There was no mention nor can I find in the catalog any heaters, undersubstrate or conventional.


----------



## gpodio

I have never seen a heater in an ADA tank, nor did I see any in the ADA catalog. During his first presentation he did show an uder gravel heater during one setup, but the next setup didn't use it. Considering that the large tank at his house has a huge sump where a large heater could have been fitted, I guess he does feel under gravel heaters are better otherwise he probably wouldn't have gone to all that trouble. Then again the tank sits on a concrete slab so he may have done this to avoid a lot of heat loss from the base of the tank. During the winter I'm sure the concrete gets rather cold regardless of water temperature, this may be the reason...

Giancarlo


----------



## Gomer

Here is a nifty light setup....looks pretty spify and should be cheaper than the ADA one....however, it is still rediculously expensive LOL

http://www.specialty-lights.com/250440.html


----------



## JLudwig

Raul-7 said:


> So Amano believes that heating cables work? Or is that another way to fill his wallet.. :wink:


Yes. He believes warm roots are beneficial if a heater is necessary... thing is keep in mind is that Japan is quite temperate from what I've been told at the conference and using a heater at all would be unusual. I also think he was trying to say that it was just as much cosmetic as functional keeping the heater down there. And Yes to your second question also, he is a very sucessful businessman who would sell ADA approved water if the market were there, so take everything with a grain of salt 

Jeff


----------



## dennis

It can also snow in Japan, so it just depends on which part you live in.


----------



## Rolo

I'll give this approach a try. High-light plants without the high-light growth rates is definitely news to my ears.



gpodio said:


> So he's using around 1.5WPG for the first 6 hours, followed by 4.5WPG for 3 hours and finally another 6 hours of 1.5WPG. He also only injects CO2 during the intense 3 hour period.


...but not so sure if it will work as planned. The thing about Amano injecting CO2 for only the high-light period should be a critical factor. I can't do that because my KH is very high, so the pH will experience large swings w/o CO2; meaning plants will still photosynthesize well.

I wonder how algae will respond too. Amano is big on ferts in the substrate as opposed to what most of us are doing - ferts in the water column. Now with a low lighting, no CO2 period we have: Slow/No photosynthesis + water column full of ferts = algae?

Of course, I'm just speculating...


----------



## anonapersona

*timing that light cycle*

Way back in the krib Eric Olson posted a method of calculating how much light one should have, in hours, for various growth rates.

I used this to time my Solar Hood from PSL that has two banks of 55 watts, each independantly switched. I think I determined that I could use all 2 lights for 12 hours and the extra 2 for 4 hours mid-day.

I'll see if I can turn that up and link it for you.


----------



## plantbrain

Rolo said:


> I'll give this approach a try. High-light plants without the high-light growth rates is definitely news to my ears.
> 
> 
> 
> gpodio said:
> 
> 
> 
> So he's using around 1.5WPG for the first 6 hours, followed by 4.5WPG for 3 hours and finally another 6 hours of 1.5WPG. He also only injects CO2 during the intense 3 hour period.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but not so sure if it will work as planned. The thing about Amano injecting CO2 for only the high-light period should be a critical factor. I can't do that because my KH is very high, so the pH will experience large swings w/o CO2; meaning plants will still photosynthesize well.
> 
> I wonder how algae will respond too. Amano is big on ferts in the substrate as opposed to what most of us are doing - ferts in the water column. Now with a low lighting, no CO2 period we have: Slow/No photosynthesis + water column full of ferts = algae?
> 
> Of course, I'm just speculating...
Click to expand...

No, with a non CO2 approach we have no algae at all, low nutrients, they are used up fast by the plants as the fish produce them.

A great method, and something a number of well knowing folks have said, : Low light with lots of CO2 and nutrients.

This is a great method.
You can keep all the plants, but use just 1.6-2.0 w/gal(depending on tank size), 11 hour day etc.

You can add more light to this but that will afford you less wiggle room on a routine.

The cable heater seemed like an Ikeller style heating of the floor. Seemed like a good place for it but it seemed to be more a heater, rather than a method of heating foer the substrate itself.

It does heat more efficiently than a tube style heater and that is a lot of water to heat.

But I don't think this tank was about going cheap
400,000$.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## IUnknown

The Slimline 3 is another pendant that offers separate timers for either the HQI or fluorescent.
http://www.arcadia-uk.com/en/140pendant.html


----------



## gpodio

Here's another product:

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=PF69910

Regarding the way Amano fertilizes his tanks, I also feel that most of Amano's tanks use mostly slow to medium growing plants. He uses a lot of java fern, mosses, anubias... Many of our tanks on the other hand have a larger bulk of fast growing plants so it's likely that his demands for water column ferts are less than many of ours.

Giancarlo


----------



## plantbrain

You got it Giancarlo!

It's from years of pruning and hassling with high light, fast growing weed tanks.

The entire thing with the sand in the front, the wood, rock etc means less pruning.

It also allows more reliance on the fish waste and less on water column ferts.

Less light is very good and allows lots of wiggle room!!!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## JLudwig

gpodio said:


> Regarding the way Amano fertilizes his tanks, I also feel that most of Amano's tanks use mostly slow to medium growing plants. He uses a lot of java fern, mosses, anubias... Many of our tanks on the other hand have a larger bulk of fast growing plants so it's likely that his demands for water column ferts are less than many of ours.


Bingo. None of his layout are full of crazy hard stems. In setups where he used a fast growing plant like glosso, he doesn't bother to trim it, I'm recalling the progression in I think it was book 2 where he lets it run over the entire tank and choke everything else out. His tanks are suprisingly low maintence, he just uses hardscape very effectively so every now and then he just needs to whack the stems in the rear down a bit...

Jeff


----------



## AV8TOR

gpodio said:


> At the moment I'm around 25ppm CO2 and 0,1-0,5 PO4.
> Giancarlo


How much ppm of PO4?


----------



## gpodio

PO4: 0.5ppm after dosing, 0.1ppm within 2-3 days.

Giancarlo


----------



## biffe

I found a few pictures of how Amano build up the super large tank for those that might be interested

http://www.zen-it.com/nico/aqua/amano/all05/

I love the plant selection, it will defiantly be in my memory for my next scape

Regards Kenneth


----------



## IUnknown

More pendants,
Coralife Aqualight PRO -HQI + CF
http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/power_HQIProaqualight.html
Ocean Light HQI Metal Halide & T5
http://www.coralreefecosystems.com/ltg_systems-aquamedic-3.asp


----------



## plantbrain

I have a guy here in Sac that makes custom light fixtures.
I'm having a 2x150HQI+2x65w on 2 channels/moon light LED+4" fan.

Much better pricing than these folks and I have a smaller hood design, 5 year warranty etc. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Gomer

Hey Tom, Can you PM me the contact information.

Thanks!
-_Tony


----------



## IUnknown

> Hi Greg,
> 
> We have had to make amendments to the pendant range in order to comply with US standards, which are different to European.
> 
> These amendments are just about complete, and so the pendant is about to be launched in the states, distributed through our US distributor - Hikari, who can be contacted through their web-site www.hikari-usa.com.
> 
> In fact, if you have seen the latest Tropical fish hobbyist magazine, there is a small insert towards the back of the magazine about them.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Arcadia


----------



## pineapple

Greg,

Very nice looking fixture. Probably worth the money. Certainly, to make something as elegant would require much time and the right materials and tools. When you add up all those costs, it is cheaper to buy them (believe me, I am in the middle of making a CF pendant now and to achieve a professional look is challenging).

What is the width on this item? 70cm?

Andrew Cribb


----------



## IUnknown

Andrew, 
Yeah, 70 cm. Here is the info on the series 3 line,
http://www.arcadia-uk.com/en/140pendant.html
I like the built in timers.


----------



## pineapple

Thanks. That Hikari link 'Mr Arcadia' listed above should be: www.hikariusa.com (no hyphen). In the UK, these pendants sell for about GBP287.00 (with the 150w MH). In USD that is $548.00 at today's ghastly exchange rate. Add on more money for the dual timers. The USD is extremely low at the moment, meaning imports are very expensive for US domestic buyers. What with Hikari's agent's fee and the local retailer's cut, I dread to think of what this is going to cost.

1 British Pound = 1.91140 US Dollar
1 US Dollar (USD) = 0.52318 British Pound (GBP)

Here is a UK retailer's information:
http://www.paraquatics.co.uk/en-gb/dept_1.html

Andrew Cribb


----------



## Rolo

For the 150w HQI does Amano recommend 3-4 hours, or 6-8 hours?

According to Gomer, Amano said 3-4 at the AGA conference.
According to JSenske, Amano recommends 6-8.


----------



## arellanon

I've learned a lot from this thread! I'm going to try that short intense lighting period in the middle for some time to see what happens with my tanks!


----------



## IUnknown

Another fixture that would be good for this is the maristar from sunlight supply,
http://www.sunlightsupply.com/aquarium/products/lighting_fixture-combo.shtml
$300 for the 24" fixture, and then you can either get a magnetic ballast ($100) or electronic ($250) bluewave ballast.


----------



## jsenske

Chris/Rolo-
As with most variables, the exact length of the photoperiod or duration of any particular light source will vary with different layouts, needs, skill level, etc.
I started out only running the HQI on the ADA 90cm tank here at ADG 4 hours per day. I have increased it gradually to 6 hours per day as the tank has settled-in. This tank has both high-light stemmed plants and lower-light plants like anubias and crypts , so I have sought to strike a balance. Also this tank has a lot of visable hardscape (wood) that I have wanted to protect from premature alage growth- so controlling light is another way to help with this. 
HQI is really effective, but really intense so its use requires a slightly modified approach compared to most other sources used before (flourescent, even PC, etc.). I think with the light suspended a bit higher over the tank you could run it longer without issues. I have run HQI for 10 hours/day like this and really only had to contend with extra algae on the glass- but that was in a really densely planted tank. 
Right now I have 150 watt HQI SOLAR ONE(ADA 8,000K) on a 20 gal. long (very short in height!) that has a very simple (just volcanic stones, Eleocharis, Blyxa japonica, and Isoetes japonica) layout - no stemmed plants, etc. and it's at 6 hours/day also and is doing really nicely- no algae- and has not required any special care/considerations.


----------

