# Hard water and plant growth



## Faruk Gençöz

I read many cases that people do not have a big problem with plant growth in hard water. After moved to a new house in which GH is 15-20 and KH is 10 I have been experiencing many growth problems especially with red plants. The funny thing is that plants show symptoms very similar to calcium deficiency: Stopped growth and curling leaves. The new leaves are smaller and the roots are quite healthy. I think I cannot have deficiency in Calcium but excess of it may harden the use of another element.

I want to discuss and understand plant physiology and adaptation in hard water.


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## defdac

It could be that your GH is mostly Magnesium, which some thinks also inhibits Ca-uptake.


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## Faruk Gençöz

In fact I suspected magnesium deficiency first and dosed magnesium. Upon no change, I did a water change and dosed calcium. Nothing happened.


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## Bert H

Hey Faruk, I too am a fellow 'hard water person'. Let me say a couple of things here which may or may not apply to your situation. 

In my case, I have well water from a limestone aquifer. kh is 9-10, gh is 12-13. I was having all kinds of issues with some plants that are supposed to be 'easy'. For example, I couldn't keep a Ludwigia alive to save my skin. I tried repens, ovalis, arcuata, all would grow a little, and the stems eventually would get necrotic and die. Sometimes when it did grow the leaves would be all deformed. With my A. reinickii, I had all kinds of issues with the same stunted, deformed growth, at least the stems didn't die on me with these. I tried macranda, it died. I tried L. aromatica, it died. 

Finally I broke down and bought a Ca test kit. I found out that most of my hardness was coming from Ca and not from Mg, which makes sense having water coming from a limestone (CaCO3) aquifer in Florida. So I started dosing Mg to my tanks. A little at first. I started to notice that the reinickii didn't get 'deformed' as often as before. To make a long story short, I now dose 1tsp of Mg twice a week to my 50's. The aromatica which I tried had dwindled down to a nub about half an inch high when I made the full conversion. It turned around, and now lives happily in my tanks! I haven't seen any more deformed growth on my reinickii, I can grow L. repens just fine now, and I even have some macranda growing. A long time ago, I remember reading something by Tom Barr stating that excess Ca can cause issues with Mg uptake.

One other thing to consider, on another board there is a thread from a fellow Floridian who also has hard water. He added Mg as well with great improvement to his plants. Then someone suggested adding boron. I understand that he does this now with CSM+B and he has had great improvement. I have considered adding boron, but as of now, things are going ok, so I don't want to go that route. 

Hope that helps.


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## Bert H

BTW, once the deformed growth occurred, it never reverted. The only way I had to measure changes was by seeing how the new growth occurred. So perhaps you need to give it a little more time to accurately judge whether your changes actually had an effect.


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## Faruk Gençöz

Thanks Bert. These are helpful. I am searching for the physiological info about how high Ca or Mg or KH can inhibit growth.


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## hoppycalif

Are sword plants more sensitive to a magnesium deficiency than others? I ask because my e. parviflorous isn't doing well at all, and the new leaves seem deformed. This plant was nearly dead when I planted it, but is still alive, just not growing well.


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## plantbrain

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## plantbrain

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## plantbrain

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## Cavan Allen

plantbrain said:


> Good luck finding specific examples in aquatic plants.
> 
> I've written articles specifically on these.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Where? Can you expand on his question, or do we have to search for the articles?

Haven't you said in the past that lower KH helps with some plants?


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## Faruk Gençöz

I set up 4 experimental tanks, each of which is 12 liters. Two of them have volcanic and the other two have florite-red substrate. I'll examine many possibilities two by two. If things go right I want to submit better tanks to the inexpensive tank contest. 

Barrreport.com articles in November and December are about Ca and Mg respectively. 

I don't have sword plants right now.


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## Cavan Allen

> Barrreport.com articles in November and December are about Ca and Mg respectively.


Oh, I get it....


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## Faruk Gençöz

We have been working on the problem with Amano! Yes him, Takashi Amano. He contacted me yesterday and told he was going to visit Turkey sometime in this month. So he said he could take care of the hard water problem by himself. He mentioned that his big tank had the same problem in the initial phase. I will keeep you informed about the progress. What a chance!


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## Faruk Gençöz

I must say today is April 1st.


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## detlef

Faruk,

your little story gave me a good lough, thank you for that and keep up your humour. This way you can solve lots of problems in a different way. Oh, were they problems actually?

Best regards,
Detlef


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## Faruk Gençöz

Yes, my problem with the hard water and the experimentation tanks are real.


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## plantbrain

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## oceanaqua

My Ludwigia Glandulsa leaves all curl up, what kind of defiency is this? I never always had ludwigia grown like crazy and most of my plants are curl up but growing very prosperous. I have hard water 9 kh and 15 gh.


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## plantbrain

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## Faruk Gençöz

When the plants especially the red ones need higher amount of traces they can find the extra traces from the substrate. If the water is hard and excess of Ca++ binds the substrate and blocks the availability of other cationic traces availability from the substrate, the plants may not get enough traces and may show some mixtures of cationic trace deficiency symptoms. 

This is my first hypothesis after some reading about Ca. I will make a small experiment on this in two tanks in which I will manipulate the substrate and keep the other variables constant. Clay based flourite's CEC capacity should be higher than the volcanic and porous substrate I use in my tanks. Higher CEC means more availability of other traces. So I expect less growth problems in flourite than in the volcanic substrate.


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## plantbrain

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## Faruk Gençöz

Thanks for the comments, Tom. These are the discussions already made in different platforms. I won't discuss them theoretically. I got four tanks. Let's see the results from the practice.

I will also manipulate GH in another two tanks. One of the tank will have lower GH the other will have regular hard water. In the end I will have four conditions:

1. Lower GH and Flourite
2. Lower GH and volcanic substrate
3. Higher GH and Flourite
4. Higher GH and volcanic substrate

I will check CEC of the two substrates.


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## dennis

How will you be checking the CEC?


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## Faruk Gençöz

I have a material engineer friend in the University's central lab. I'll ask if he can make me a favor. At least he can form an impression under an electron microscope.


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## plantbrain

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## windsurfer

I am in Santa Barbara, Ca. 11dKH, 24dGH and have also had a variety of problems due to the water hardness.

major problems I have appear to be related to trace element deficiencies. I have big problems with precipitation when dosing traces. Additionally, if I premix CSM+B with my tap water, I get reactions and precipitates with the premix which make it lose it's effectiveness over the period of a of a week. I found a huge improvement when switching to dry dosing of my trace elements. The plants responded within days plus I can dose higher levels without precipitation.

an example of the precipitation is that if I dose more than 1ml of Flourish Iron in a 46 gal tank, I get hazy water for a couple of hours.

my fastest reacting (and slowest recovering) plant to the trace deficiencies are Ludwigia Palustris and Ricca. least sensitive are Rotala Rotundufolia and Crypyt Wentii.

I do not see curling of leaves ever, just stunted growth and Algae blooms.

As an added bonus, phosphate test kits are completely useless if there is any phosphate in the water at all and pH is not useful for determining CO2 levels (I measure 10-11dKH and run pH @6.7 -any higher and I get BBA)

-jd


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## Faruk Gençöz

Tom, thanks again for the useful article. I am aware of the article and used it several times as a reference but it doesn't include the volcanic substrate I use. So, I cannot understand if I am manipulating CEC in my experiment just by knowing only the Flourite's characteristics.

The literature seems to have not much studies that compare different commercial substrates in terms of their effectiveness in plant growth. I read a few field and lab studies that manipulated the characteristics of the substrates to see their impact on the plant growth. Walstad's book is a very useful one in this respect. In my earlier trials I understood that in slightly hard water if the fertilizers are available in the water column it doesn't matter what kind of substrate is used. On the other hand as the water gets harder substrate characteristics become more important.

In the trials I may or may not discover a new thing. After all it is my hobby and replication is not a bad thing even in science. I am trying because I want to grow the plants better in my hard water.

windsurfer, thank you for the comments. I am mixing micros and macros into a unit of water. When dosing this solution I always see a precipitation that lasts an hour. Currently I have also read that phosphate and iron can combine in the solution. I'll try dry dosing.


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## plantbrain

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## plantbrain

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## windsurfer

Hi Tom,

I don't have a BBA problem. I did have one in the past when I was setting my CO2 levels using the normal chart. Once I chucked the chart and upped the CO2, the BBA left -that was a long time ago.

My trace deficiencies manifest themselves initially as stunted growth and eventually as staghorn or hair algae. Once I started noticing that the growth rates of the plants and algae corresponded to the age of my CSM+B premix, I switched to dry dosing traces and have seen significant improvements. I have a 30g cube that is currently looking great. this tank always responds faster than the other ones (both good and bad). the slowest responding tank is a 46 bow which is still growing some hair algae. I got the plants growing well again a few weeks ago, so I figure in a month or so It should look as good as the cube. Incidentially, the bow has been running mist for the last month in addition to the a normal reactor. so far, it has not been a miracle for me and this tank has the slowest growth of my CO2 injected tanks.

I don't use flourish iron since I can't put a useful amount in, I just used that as an example of a problem I have with hard water. I dose Fe:EDTA. I also dose KH2PO4 at a higher rate than you recommend. I am using 3 parts KNO3 : 1 part KH2PO4. If I dose 4:1 like recommended, I get pale colors and stunted growth. I am guessing that the PO4 and Fe are reacting and becoming unavailable.

did you collect any plants around SB ? I have found some interesting things growing in the streams. don't have an ID for them yet, but they grow fine in tubs !

-jd


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## plantbrain

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## windsurfer

Doesn't TMG use FePTA ? I thought Fe:EDTA was more stable, thus more appropriate for our hard water.

I'll be sure to check out the area you described, lots of good mountain biking up there. You are right about the rain here, Cachuma full and started dumping over the spillway again last weekend !

-jd


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## windsurfer

OK that is cute. guess I can't type Iron DTPH without getting some silly face.


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## plantbrain

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## Faruk Gençöz

Here are my 4 tanks. I filled them up. The next time I will send individual tanks and their GH and KH.


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## Faruk Gençöz

1. Higher GH and Flourite
2. Lower GH and Flourite
3. Lower GH and volcanic substrate 
4. Higher GH and volcanic substrate


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## Faruk Gençöz

1. Higher GH and Flourite GH:24
2. Lower GH and Flourite GH: 9
3. Lower GH and volcanic substrate GH: 5 
4. Higher GH and volcanic substrate GH: 14

I used the same drinking water in 2 and 3; and the same tap water in 1 and 4. There is a tendency to have increased GH seemingly due to Flourite. Volcanic substrate proved itself that it is inert as compared to Flourite.

I did not understand why there is a huge gap between 1 and 4 as compared to difference between 2 and 3. I'll repeat the GH test later.


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## Faruk Gençöz

I prepared a macro mixture and add same amount to each tank.

KNO3=6 grams
KH2PO4= 0.250 grams
K2SO4= 3 grams

I mixed them into 300ml distilled water and dosed 10 ml to each of the tanks.

Before I added the fertilizers I noticed that there seemed to be algae growing very fast in the 3rd tank in which GH is the lowest.

I do not use any filter and heater.


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## plantbrain

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## Faruk Gençöz

Within the last 15 days I observed the most Echinodorus growth in the lower GH and volcanic substrate tank. In the other 3 higher GH tanks Echinodorus are growing but with obvious deficiency symptoms and at a lower level. The new leaves are whitish, small and have colorless parts. In the lowest GH tank these symptoms did not appear. In the lowest GH tank the leaves are green, longer and the plants started to give many healthy looking stolons. I observed that the other plants in higher GH tanks also gave stolons but they are shorter and whitish.


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## BSS

Interesting data, thanks! I've got KH=8.5 and GH=11, so moderately hard, I guess. I was interested to see that one of your lower GH tanks seems to grow moss better. I've not yet successfully kept any mosses....though I did just recently diagnose an acid source in my tank  .


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## Faruk Gençöz

I examine three types of plant:

a moss (vesicularia ferriei), a rosette (a dwarf Echinodorus), and a stem plant (Lysimachia nummularia Aurea).

All of them have different type of responses. The moss did not differentiate hard and soft water. They are doing quite good in all conditions. Lysimachia nummularia Aurea did not differentiate much but it seems it is best in moderately hard water (tank4). Finally the Echinodorus is definitely better in the softest condition (tank3).

The moss growth in the following tank is in very similar (hardness) conditions with tank4 except filtration and CO2.


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## Faruk Gençöz

*4.11.2006*

1. Higher GH and Flourite GH:24
2. Lower GH and Flourite GH: 9
3. Lower GH and volcanic substrate GH: 5 
4. Higher GH and volcanic substrate GH: 14

   

*5.28.2006*

1. GH: 22
2. GH: 6
3. GH: 3
4. GH: 12


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## Faruk Gençöz

Results:

Echinodorus growth is greatest in the 3rd tank (lowest GH, volcanic substrate)
Lysimachia growth is greatest in the 4th tank (moderate GH, volcanic substrate)
Vesicularia growth is equal in all the tanks (lowest GH: 3; highest GH: 22)

It is interesting that the volcanic substrate (tanks 3rd and 4th) seems to be superior to Flourite Red (tanks 1st and 2nd) in the first 47 days.


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## Laith

I'm curious as to what the KH was in the test tanks?


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## Faruk Gençöz

1 Kh: 13
2 Kh: 7
3 Kh: 8
4 Kh: 11


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## Edward

Hi Faruk Gençöz,

It is dificult to see it on Moss and Echinodorus. Try testing more sensitive plant species if you have a chance. It would provide more conclusive results. 

If only one tested aquarium could have RO/demineralized water, add 3 KH by baking soda, 20 ppm by CaCl2 and 4 ppm by MgSO4. Take pictures after 2-3 months. Compare it to the growing conditions at 13 KH, 24 GH, tap water. That would be interesting.


Thank you
Edward


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## Faruk Gençöz

I understand that what you have suggested is about dropping the KH from 13 to 3 while keeping GH at the same level. I am sure it would be a good test. Have you already done it?

Is there any other way to test this? I was thinking to buy a RO already but I should search for a good one and it takes time. Is there any other filtering method to keep GH at the same level while decreasing KH?


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## Edward

Yes, I experienced a significant improvement on most species by lowering KH and adding Ca as CaCl2 and Mg as MgSO4.

Unfortunately there is no system that would remove KH from GH. In reality this is not what the test is about. The test is about comparing [CaCO3, MgCO3] to [NaHCO3 (baking soda), CaCl2, MgSO4].


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## andrewwl

I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to do that experiment and share the results. I've found it, and this thread helpful.


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## Faruk Gençöz

Thanks andrewwl.

Edward, did you say "add 3 KH" or 13 KH by baking soda ?



Edward said:


> If only one tested aquarium could have RO/demineralized water, add 3 KH by baking soda,


Can you give a reference discussion to the comparison ([CaCO3, MgCO3] to [NaHCO3, CaCl2, MgSO4])?


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## Edward

add 3 KH total


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## Faruk Gençöz

My tap water has 11-13 KH. If I add 3 KH to a RO water I think what I can compare is high KH to low KH. On the other hand I got your point in an older discussion:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...html?highlight=CaCO3+MgCO3+NaHCO3+CaCl2+MgSO4

If I can get a RO filter I'll do the test. Thanks.


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## PapaLoc

What is pH in the 4 tanks? About the same?


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## Faruk Gençöz

I did not test PH but my guess is that the hardest tank was between 8.00-8.50, the softest tank was between 7.00-7.50.


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## Jimbo205

Faruk, I read in your posts that there are no filters and no heaters for these tanks. How warm was the water in the tanks and what season was it in Turkey while you were doing these experiments? 
I ask the question because I also have had no heater in my 10 Gallon or smaller tanks. My 27 Gallon tank I have turned the heater back on. 

Colder weather is starting to come to Upstate New York, and I am anticipating a large difference in how my tanks react to the cold even with the heaters. 

Please let me know if your experiments were during the warm season for Turkey and on average how warm the water in your tanks were. 

Thank you.


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## Faruk Gençöz

I did the experiment in the winter season. Home temperature was set to 23-24 degrees Celsius and the tank temperature was I guess between 22 and 24. I did not face any problem in the tanks during the spring due to great changes in the temperature.


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## TWood

Last year I moved to a place where the GH is 24 and the KH is 16. The Ca:Mg ratio is closer to 2:1 rather than the typical 3:1. All my plants slowly curled up, stunted and died. I invested in a RO system, a big pain for a 90 gallon tank. It sorta worked but it took all the fun out of it.

Then I discovered this method for lowering KH, and all is well again, although with mostly different plant species. If you don't have a pool, use a large container, don't pour acid in your aquarium.


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## Faruk Gençöz

Thanks for the method. Have you ever measure the conductivity before and after your applications? Theoretically when the acid is added, the conductivity must increase and too much conductivity may also be not good for the plant growth.

At which KH level your problems disappeared?


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## TWood

Faruk Gençöz said:


> Thanks for the method. Have you ever measure the conductivity before and after your applications? Theoretically when the acid is added, the conductivity must increase and too much conductivity may also be not good for the plant growth.
> 
> At which KH level your problems disappeared?


Hey Faruk,

I just did some testing and found that while I've kept the swimming pool at 4dKH the aquarium is at 8dKH. I initially used the pool water to restart the aquarium, so it started out at 4dKH. Dunno why the aquarium would creep up since I use RO water for evaporation replacement, but there it is. In any case, nitrate is creeping higher than I want and I haven't done a water change in a couple of months, so I decided to try this technique in a large trash can.










Out of the tap the TDS is 350 using a Milwaukee CD 97 electronic meter. I know it uses a 0.5 conversion factor, so that's 700 microsiemens conductivity.

Thirty minutes after adding 4 ounces muriatic acid to 35 gallons water, all bets are off because everything is off the test range. TDS is 930, so microsiemens is 1860, but I suspect the whole chemistry is throwing everything off. I'm going to aerate all day and see what changes. If nothing gets back into test range I'll dump the water and start over with a lower acid dose.

Here's how I adjust the pool KH:


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## Faruk Gençöz

Hey, what a scientific manner to answer the conductivity question!

I think 1860 microsiemens is high for a healthy plant growth and I don't think it drops down. Have you ever tested such a water to grow plants?


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## TWood

I dumped that batch and started over. Adding 1 ounce of muriatic acid to 35 gallons water initially gets me to 380TDS or 760 microsiemens, and about 6.6pH, from 7.4pH (tapwater pH). I don't think those will be final values when this is all done. I'll keep aerating and adding acid until I get the KH down to about 4dKH, then measure again.


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## TWood

With starting values of 15dKH, 24dGH, 350TDS (700 microsiemens), it took two ounces of muriatic acid to take 35 gallons of that water down to 5dKH with an end value of 450TDS (900 microsiemens). While that might sound high, the water in the aquarium -was- at 1350TDS (2700 microsiemens) so this is a vast improvement. (I actually used the water out of the swimming pool, and it was -better- than tapwater, but included everything I'd put in the pool, including salt.) Several large water changes later with the 5dKH water, and then dosing all ferts, gets it to 550TDS (1100 microsiemens).


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## Faruk Gençöz

I think this is an happy ending. You have proved that the method works. Could you also post your aquarium photos?


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## TWood

Here it is after about 8 hours with the new water:










No real aquascape, but at this point I'm mostly interested in enough growth to control nitrates. That fish is 7" tip to stern, and I'd like two. However, now that large water changes are easy again, I can experiment. 90 gallon aquarium.

Here's an overall shot from last week:










I've ordered some 'difficult' plants, so that will be the real test.

I've also ordered one of the Kent Marine 3/4" venturis. I'll screw that to the submersible pump the next time I need to make some low-KH water.


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