# El Natural Woes



## walzon1 (Feb 24, 2014)

My tank has been setup for about 3 mo. and I have been noticing for some time that certain plants were not growing right, basically stunted in their growth, two plants of the same species side by side only one would be stunted ???. I did a couple water changes and checked all the usual suspects thought maybe I was missing a particular nutrient, nothing I tried helped. PLants were simply not rooting at all but having root decay. Today as I was doing some rearranging in the tank I noticed that there were spots in the substrate that just had no substance meaning I could almost put my finger to the bottom without any resistance. I think maybe the peat moss is breaking down in spots where there happens to be more peat than dirt and cause the roots to not have something to anchor to. I didn't mix my potting mix around or anything which I know is recommended to do. I am thinking I might have to start over, maybe go with an organic topsoil only without the peat moss. Another tank using the same mix is growing like nuts so I know the potting mix isn't to blame.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

The stunted growth and root decay almost sounds like symptoms of anaerobic substrate.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

Yup, your dirt is anaerobic. Add some more water flow towards the substrate and poke a stick through the substrate to get oxygen back into it.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I find it hard to make a suggestion without a lot more information about the tank set-up.


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## walzon1 (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, yes the dirt was definitely anaerobic as I was pushing a fork down through I was getting bubbles like crazy which pushed dirt through the sand cap and into the water column now I am looking to recap or just start over either way is going to suck. Might end up just starting over and recap with gravel instead. Should I reuse the dirt that I have or just get some more? Honestly I had so much success the first time with dirt that this time I literally just threw it in and capped it and didn't think twice.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Just curious, but how deep was your substrate? The dirt? The cap?

Personally I would just start over if that is the case. 3 months isn't really that long in the bigger picture.


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## walzon1 (Feb 24, 2014)

I went a little over on the Dirt Mix about 1 1/2 inches cause i was doing a steep slope from right to left, so in the middle of the tank is about an inch, and on the right thereis no dirt just 1/4 inch of sand that i used for a cap. I used the same potting mix on another tank and just picked out the larger wood pieces, capped with Petco gravel 1/2 inch and that tank is doing great. This time on my new tank I didn't even bother with the larger wood, like I said I just threw it in created my slope and capped with 1/4 inch of sand. I noticed right after setup there were lots of bubbles in the substrate but I new that it was mostly oxygen and should settle with time, for the first month I could see the bubbles ocasionally from settling but not much since then so didn't think much more of it. There was no smell or anything to the tank and no livestock problems. even added shrimp to the tank and no problems.After poking around yesterday for about 5 minutes I think my Substrate compressed about a quarter inch from all the bubbles that released, I'm assuming most were oxygen bubbles but at that rate and with the problems I was having there had to have been some anaerobic ones as well. Anyhow I;m thinking the soil had too much peat moss and wood and not enough dirt think I will restart with MTS instead.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The bubbles are not oxygen. If you are lucky, they are just carbon dioxide which will have little or no odor. If the substrate is severely anaerobic (without oxygen), they are hydrogen sulfide which smells terrible and is toxic.


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## atc84 (May 18, 2013)

I don't think it's any reason to start over. anaerobic substrate is actually quite common i've found (which is why i gave a very direct suggestion), probably because more people are turning to higher organic dirt for their planted tanks. I have these problems early on for my tanks, because i use fine sand. I learned to keep MTS on hand, and eventually decided to not worry about the bubbles anymore since it's hard to really know if they are bad or not.


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## walzon1 (Feb 24, 2014)

Update: I was growing more and more concerned for my tank since aerating the soil the tank had begun to smell very fishy and I was continuing to get bubbles released from the soil. I think ATC84 had a great point that the soil was very high in organic matter and not enough dirt, it definitely had a lot of peat moss and wood chips. I decided to go ahead and start over unfortunately for time and livestock sake I did not want to restart with dirt with the potential initial ammonia spike and the large amount of inverts in the tank. I am so glad I did though upon removing the dirt the decomp. was worse than I thought and the smell was like a compost bin. Lesson learned though, maybe my mistake will help others.


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## Phoenix1307 (Jun 1, 2014)

I'm not sure what the value of the peat moss is, and avoided it in my tank. It's acidic and tannic, neither of which I wanted to introduce, and it breaks down to soil, but only over a very long period of time. Likewise, wood chips will affect the water, depending on the type of wood. It's probably pine, and will also "turn to rich organic soil" in about a year. Perhaps just starting with soil is the best bet.

Also, I suspect your cap is a bit thin, and it's possible that mulm is making it's way to the soil rather than being consumed by snails and bottom-feeders. This may be "capping the soil" in its own way, and without adequate circulation could be helping to create an inorganic situation. Lots of plant roots will aerate the soil, but it's a chicken and egg thing where you need to get plants and roots established quickly to create aerobic conditions in the soil.

I too get bubbles, and don't know if they're "good bubbles," or "bad bubbles," but the overall health of the tank is excellent, so I don't worry about them or go poking around. My plants are growing so fast, broadleaf plants adding about 1/2-1" per day on new leaves. And ammonia levels have dropped to near zero. As Walstad points out, the plants would rather get their carbon from Ammonia in the water than through the roots. One large broadleaf plant is probably equivalent to 50-100 stem plants in terms of overall leaf area, and hence, ammonia consumption, something to think about. And they tend to sink large root systems into the soil.

And yes, Walstad's book is on excellent chemical-conversion grounds according to my Botanist PhD wife, so Walstad's book is also my bible on plants and soil substrate.


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