# HELP! 75 gallons worth of frustration



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hi all:

My 75 gallon tank has been having so many issues. The main one being GDA. I have deficiencies of some kind on my bolbitis (see pic) and the Narrow leaf java fern. 

Here's the specs:

Lighting: 2x 55 watt 6500k t8, 1 40 watt Plant and Aquarium wide spectrum t12
(^^ i had 3 of the t8's but it wasn't helping algae whatsoever)

Ferts: Follow E.I. I've tried PPS-PRO, MCI, etc, and i still have issues

CO2: Pressurized, 20ppm

Plants: Bolbitis Heudeloti, Blyxa Japonica, Pygmy Chain swords, Peacock Moss, Java Fern, Narrow leaf java fern

Flow: around 200 gph, going to be increased to over 800 when i get my powerhead in.

Water (Tap): city water: GH=2 KH=2 (I think this is a problem)

Water (Tank): 50% water change every week
NO3: 20ppm
PO4: 3.5 ppm
PH: 6.0
GH: 3
KH: 3
All readings taken with API test kits

Problems: GDA, yellowing tips on narrow leaf java fern, bolbitis growing like crap. Put in new sand on sunday, by tuesday night it was covered in algae that looked like GDA.

Advice, tips, help?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

more pics


----------



## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

My initial thought is this is a great deal of slow growing plants and it looks like you are going through new tank grief. I would try adding a fast growing stem to the mix to get the tank off the ground.

Are you dosing according to test reading? I would avoid that begin dosing on a regular schedule.

Your lighting also needs to be analyzed. Do you have old bulbs, good reflectors?


----------



## kcrossley (Mar 25, 2010)

How old is your tank?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Let's see... this tank was set up in the end of january. so not too long. 

No i'm not dosing by reading, that's just the reading i happened to get.

As for lights, they are all new bulbs, added when the tank was added, no reflectors now, as the hood is made with birch plywood, which is white. I thought and thought over making my own reflector and it just wasn't going to work out. The lights are actually just mounted inside (see pic). It's a custom hood.

And yes, the majority of the plants are slow growers, so i've been having trouble finding balance with ferts and co2. any advice with this would be appreciated. The pygmy's are fast growers though, as you can see haha.

I think the main issue is my water hardness, coupled with insufficient fertilizing, whether it be not enough or in the wrong proportions. Solving these two problems would solve the GDA too i hope. Again, any further advice would be much appreciated. And thanks for the responses.


----------



## adechazal (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi Flashbang009, when I first saw your pictures I thought "this guy's got new tank syndrome" If you set it up at the end of January, I'd say you're still working through that phase. As you're probably aware, in the early stages all kinds of things can go haywire with nutrients of various sorts leaching from the soil etc.

During troublesome algae outbreaks I'm a proponent of repeated cleanings and lots of water changes. By "repeated" cleanings I mean every other day for a week or so. Step 1 clean, step 2 water change, two days later repeat. This can be combined with the old 3-day blackout which really helps reset things, I just hate covering the tank for 3 days.

IMO your relatively soft water shouldn't be a major issue, maybe you lack calcium, magnesium or some other element of harder water but at readings of 2 and 3 I'll be you're fine here.

Since you've listed relatively good fert, lighting, water parameters, my recommendation for your issue is to start with the simplest assumption then work to the more complicated ones. New tank syndrome just requires regular cleanings and water changes, it takes work but you will see results. After a week or two of cleaning/water changes (dose ferts regularly during this period) re-assess by letting the tank go for 3 or 4 days before the cleaning/water change. 

Just don't change a ton of things at one time like adding calcium/magnesium to increase hardness, then throwing in some iron and chasing it all with a change in your macro dosing... Ugh, you'll never figure out the answer that way. Start with the basics
-Aaron


----------



## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

I agree with Aaron. Dont go chasing your tail around trying to find a fix.

Describe your co2 setup. What equipment\how much co2 are you putting in\how are you coming up with 20ppm?

With what and how much are you dosing in one week week?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hm.. let's see. I agree that it is definitely suffering from new tank syndrome, and i've seen it thousands of times in other tanks. I guess i just thought i could beat it... haha. 

I agree about not adding all the magnesium and stuff all at once, because that will make everything haywire. However, the reason i bring it up is this: I set up a tank for my girlfriend, a 10 gallon, with less than adequate filtration, a cfl curly q bulb, and some excel. She has plenty of plants, a lot of the same ones i have as well. The only difference (compared to my other 20 gallon, which has many of the same problems this tank (75 gallon)) is that she is on well water. And that simple fact, the only difference in that and my 20 gallon is the water. She has zero deficiencies, low fish load, and no algae. And it has been set up the same amount of time as mine. Plus her plants grow as quick as my tank with CO2, and they grow beautifully. Frustrating? YES.

As for cleaning and water changes, i do a 50% water change weekly, and scrub the GDA off right before the water change. 

The CO2 is a 5lb canister, with a regulator with brass check valve and metal needle valve. The 20ppm is from kh/ph calculations and the fact that i turned it up till the fish gasped and then backed off a tad. The CO2 is still testy and not as smooth as i would like. I use a Rhinox 5000 diffuser or whatever it's called. 

Dosing is KNO3, KH2PO4, and CSM+B following E.I. The only difference is instead of every other day dosing i split that dose in half to dose every day. I do have the K2SO4, but i don't use it.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm guessing about 100% of your problems are light:CO2 issues.

Turn off one of those bulbs. New bulbs are about 50% higher output for the first 3 months:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/5336-Some-Data-on-PC-Bulb-Life

After that, you can go right ahead and turn up to full strength; you've got no reflectors, so over-lighting shouldn't be a problem.

Get yourself a drop checker. pH-KH-CO2 methods don't work in the column; there's more buffering your water than just the KH. From there, move the drop checker around to where you have problems and observe it. You'll probably notice that the worst parts of your tank probably have the lowest CO2 distribution.

You may want to look around at other CO2 distribution methods for that matter; diffusers really don't get the CO2 distributed very well. They're kind of wasteful too. Needle wheel modded powerheads are something I really enjoy, but not everyone likes bubbles everywhere.

More mechanical filtration wouldn't hurt, but isn't necessary. Keep your filter clean for better results.

In all, I'm betting once you get your CO2 nailed down most of the problems you've got will go away. At worst you might need to bump up the PO4 dosing a touch if the GSA holds on.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

That sounds good. I am getting an 800 gph powerhead on tuesday, which should definitely help. It is basically a knock off koralia. how would i go about modding it? is it just drilling small holes in the propeller?

Also, i don't exactly get what you mean by turn off one of the bulbs then turn it up to full strength. I'm glad you told me about the light life, i wasn't exactly sure. Plus, the lights are overdriven. Otherwise i would need a lot more t8's. This severely shortens the life, i know.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Koralia-like powerheads won't do it. Pick yourself up something like a ViaAqua or Rio and do this:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/5809-Needle-wheel-DIY-modifications?highlight=needle+wheel+powerheads

By turn one off, I mean leave it off for 2-3 months until the other bulbs are broken in. Once the others are broken in, turn on the remaining bulb if you want to.

How far overdriven are those lights?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Oh ok. The powerhead is already ordered, so i'll just try to get it to disperse the bubbles better. Probably just couple the powerhead with the ceramic diffuser under it.

As for the lights, basically i took a 2 light ballast and hooked up one bulb to it. So it is estimated at around 55 watts (normal: 32 watts), and is definitely brighter. I don't have a fancy gadget to tell how much brighter, but i did see an increase in pearling rate, and growth rate. 

My Co2 has been giving me problems too. I have a metal needle valve, and an older regulator. When i got the tank filled, i opened the needle valve a certain amount, but then once it was going for about a week, the amount of co2 coming out changed, so i had to adjust the needle valve. now it just keeps jumping up and down in the amounts of co2 going into the tank, so that isn't helping either.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your issues. I know it's frustratiing. What duration are you running your lights. Did you run all lights at startup for same duration? What substrate?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Lights are on from 3:30 in the afternoon until 10:30. Yes, the lights were run at startup for same duration. The substrate is fluorite. and btw, i'm very jealous of your bolbitis. Mine feels inadequate.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Looking at your pictures, the plants don't look that bad. Bolbitis takes a long-time to 'take off' the whole idea is to keep the water really clean at startup. Free of organic content that will cause problems. I would have liked you to start with less light duration from the getgo, not strength, duration. Do you have green water. The pics look very green?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Nah, i don't have green water. I've thought so from time to time, but it's really just the bright daylight spectrum light coupled with the bright green of the pygmy chain swords. Also, i took these pics about an hour after scraping GDA off and doing a water change, so the GDA is still floating around. The sand also has GDA type algae on it, which reflects into the water column.

How much shorter than 7 hours could i go, or could i have gone?


----------



## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Have you tried to balance your fertilizers via the method of controlled imbalances (MCI)?


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Yes actually i have. I just recently did that, and i ended up exceeding e.i. dosing for KNO3, and still had GDA, not GSA. So i decided to go back to E.I.


----------



## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I do believe as others have mentioned that you problem is really from startup issues and inconsistent co2. I would reduce your lighting to 6 hrs, use organic remover (either Purgien or Carbon in your filter, bumb you co2 is high as you can and keep doing water changes and dosing on a regular basis. You can also do an overdose of excel initially. Cut off any leaves that are too far gone.

IMO it's all about light, co2 and organic control. There is a wide range of ferts that will work, don't try to hit a bullseye. There's a reason it's called 'Estimate Index'. I haven't tested anything since I was a beginner. You just throw it in and take it out with the water changes. If the tank is clean and the plants are growing whether you have alittle more of this or a little less of that is not going to give you major algae problems.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

flashbang009 said:


> Yes actually i have. I just recently did that, and i ended up exceeding e.i. dosing for KNO3, and still had GDA, not GSA. So i decided to go back to E.I.


This is why I can't take MCI seriously myself. That and it dedicates more time to algae scraping than I already do, mostly based on the fact that the author didn't know he could give his Mexican audience excel at a fraction of the price which makes BBA very easy to remove.

I get BBA as my only algae of concern, and only when my CO2 is wrong. When I have it, I spend less than 1/10 of the time doing other maintenance as I do eliminating BBA. On top of that, BBA forewarns other issues related to CO2; recently a small outbreak that I chalked up to ADA NH4 continued into staurogyne showing deficiency.

I think MCI is very concerned with the impact of various nutrients on plant health though. This is a good direction. I think the author should work on manipulating morphology, given how little is known. If he were to head off for algae control methods, I'd think it would make sense to head in a direction that creates less work than what most of us are doing already.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Yeah, i understand your points. Do you have any advice for controlling GDA?


----------



## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Your in really good hands.

The Rhinox 5000 should be pouring out fine micro bubbles. Keep it clean with peroxide so it continues to produce fine micro bubbles. I use a Rhinox 5000 on my 30g and AquaMedic 1000's on my larger tanks.


I had gda just before/after my tank took off. As soon as the plants started growing it just went away. No more scraping. When the tank is firing on all cylinders it seems the nuisance algae goes away.


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

flashbang009 said:


> Yeah, i understand your points. Do you have any advice for controlling GDA?


Dosing tons of PO4; 5-10ppm in the column has taken care of it for me. You'll still need to scrape it off until it goes away; it's tricky to push GSA past its equilibrium sometimes.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok, that sounds good. At what point in the day should i test for PO4, if i'm adding it every day?

Oh, and in relation to water hardness, my mts's shells are not in good shape, and this is due to calcium i believe. Should i be adding CaSo4?


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If you're using EI then never; 10ppm dosed is enough to more than do the job. If you go with another method, test before dosing and calibrate your test kit with a reference solution.


----------



## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Well I am into day two of MCI.
I'll let you know how it goes flashbang
Best of Luck


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok, i used fertilator and for 10 ppm i need to dose 4 grams of PO4. Do i do that everyday? Also, i think i'm only dosing 2.8 grams of KNO3... so that proportion seems completely off?


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If you dose by this you won't have PO4 issues: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks

Tom cranked up the KH2PO4 dosing just to illustrate that PO4 isn't a problem at high levels. If you've got issues with these levels, make the measurement heaping and there's no doubt you'll be beyond what you need to push GSA/GDA back with weekly 50% water changes and mechanical removal.

When starting a new tank, you may also want to keep an eye on your bulbs; new bulbs have 50% more output for about the first 3 months. Any substrate that is prone to leeching NH4 at first will also cause issues and demand more WC's.

I'm not sure why people are focused on MCI given how weak the premise is; it admits to requiring more work than I've ever needed through EI. I'm guessing someone somewhere started a little campaign for it, which is why I'm seeing the astroturfing for it this week. If someone has better evidence backing the methods than what was presented here, feel free to make a thread. And no, debating with someone recognizable does not give equal credence to the theory. I can only hope we avoid the words, "Teach the controversy."


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ahh ok i see. so are you saying that i need to replace the bulbs every three months or that during that three months and right after, the light is going to be changing?

Thanks for the advice on the E.I. too.


----------



## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

I think what is being said is that it takes about 3 months for the bulbs to "burn in". During this period it is suggested you use one less bulb ( 3 out of 4) as the other 3 are super bright. After the 3 month period then add the 4th bulb
HTH


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

flashbang009 said:


> Ahh ok i see. so are you saying that i need to replace the bulbs every three months or that during that three months and right after, the light is going to be changing?
> 
> Thanks for the advice on the E.I. too.


The first 3 months on any bulb is 50% brighter, so break it in first. Don't run as much light, and try to replace your bulbs one at a time.

I like to use emersed growth trays for breaking in a new bulb when I can, or a low tech tank that only runs one bulb anyhow. From there I move it on to the high tech fixture.


----------



## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

Get some fast growing stems in there, at least temporarily, cut the lights down to the two 55 bulbs (all I run on my 72 gal is 2x54watts of T5HO), and make sure you photo period is 8 hours at the most for now. Crank up the CO2 (just short of fish gasping is you can), get more flow going, and then have patience for the tank to reach a balance and equilibrium. 

I also think some of that GDA might actually be BGA....


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Nah all the stuff on the glass is GDA. I have had BGA before, but this isn't it. I'll adjust the lights and CO2 like you said. The problem with my CO2 is that it will gradually increase in intensity throughout the day, and it keeps almost killing my fish. 

I have noticed though, that after almost killing the fish and turning the CO2 off for the rest of the day, the amount of pearling and such increases in intensity, more than if the CO2 is on all day....


----------



## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

Remember that BGA comes in many forms...


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

True true. And the stuff on the sand, now that i've thought about it and looked at it, might as well be bga. It's quite annoying, but not nearly as bad as the GDA on the glass. I guess i'll keep scrubbing it and doing weekly water changes. 

Problem with adding fast growing stems is i have no place to put them. The pygmy's have taken everything over, and seem to grow really fast themselves. Oh, btw, if anyone wants some pygmies, i'm selling them cheap, let me know. (I HAVE A TON)


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If it's BGA, erythromycin should take it out in a couple of days. I'm not sure of the sensitivity of nitrifying bacteria, but any decently packed tank doesn't even rely on a cycle to uptake free NH4. I've started enough planted tanks to find out that .5ppm/day (toxic dose of NH4) isn't even worth considering as a problem if you've got a moderate level of plants and 50% weekly WC's going on.


----------



## flashbang009 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok, thats good to know. I might try my old trusty H2O2, but if not, i'll get some of that.

Got my powerheads in yesterday. Helps the flow a lottt.


----------

