# El Natural Paludarium (help!)



## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

Hi, I have read THE BOOK and decided to set up an El Natural Paludarium. My tank is 110 Gallon (48x30x18) with 4 daylight T8 bulbs (144watts) and water is filled up to 15 inches. Substrate is 2" of soil with worm castings topped with 1" of large gravel, half a cup of oyster shell grit and sand. This tank has been setup for two months and I need advice on my water quality. I just bought a Mardel test kit with strips and my perimeters are 

PH:6.4-6.8, total Buffering capacity:80ppm, total Hardness:50ppm, Nitrite=0ppm, Nitrate=0-10ppm, Ammonia=.25

I know ammonia period is very bad so I put a filter in (Penn-Plax Cascade 600). I should have had the filter in the first place at least until the plants got big. One thing with the test strips is that the Ammonia strip was very hard to read. My PH makes sense since I live in Portland.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Also, what is total Hardness and total Buffering capacity? I know nothing when it comes to actually testing water. I do perform 30% water changes every 2 weeks.

Plants: 5 Amazon swords, Sagitteria Subulatta, Java Fern, 10 Mangroves (just hatched)

Critters include 8 Phantom Tetras, 1 Rainbow Shark,1 Pearl & 1 Threespot Gourami, 2 Raphael cats, 1 large Bamboo shrimp and 1 Goboides Brousonetti.

The Tetras turn pure black and display fins for at least half a day every day, the Shark is black with the reddest fins I have ever seen. The Violet Goby was a very bad impulse buy, I am not going to set up a brackish tank for him and I don't think he is happy in my acid water, although he did grow an inch this month and has a fat belly now. At least the goby has a healthy appetite. All of these fish will get large sized (except tetras), but for now they are small.

I will add pictures soon


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Welocome to the forum! Portlanders seem to frequent this section the most, pretty exciting!

Everything looks good as far as your measurements go, but I'm concerned about your substrate choices. Walstad recommends something quite different than your setup. 

She recommends NEVER going above 1.5" of soil, and nothing larger than 2-4mm in gravel size. Any reason you choose the substrate and thinknesses you did? 

Also, what media do you have in the filter? (I think a filter may be called for, because of your tank size, but you probably need to atleast take out all the non-porous media.)

For the volume of water and your pH readings the ammonia is pretty low. I think you may be getting ammonia, because your plant density is quite small. Do you have a picture so we can see your tank to verify this?

You kH and gH levels indicate you have quite soft water (>120-150ppm gH) and almost the right amount of buffering (~120-150ppm kH), which stabilizes your pH preventing shifts, which are very dangerous for fish. Though people will argue with me about the need of buffering (carbonate hardness).

You can read about these in Walstad's book. If you can't find specifically what your are looking for just do a search on the forum for carbonate hardness and general hardness. Reading from the very first post to the last on this forum is also recommended almost every question you could think of will be answered by doing so.

Good luck! Hope this helped.


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

I still need to find out how to post pictures


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks for the input! I do need to reread a couple of sections.I decided on 2" of dirt because the swords and plants on the back wall have deep roots and the mangroves will to (in a year). The large gravel was what I had left over, I should have used smaller gravel.

The filter media is a small square of very large porous pond filter pad, just enough to protect the impeller from debris. I am about to install another one on the opposite side and run 2 spray bars behind my background so I can grow emersed java fern and moss.

Maybe this tank is not 'El Natural' per say, but until it grows in it is very bare. Here is a picture of the old setup, notice the depth of gravel!. The large leaf plants on each side are anubias, no mangroves yet, and mainly ivy on the back wall. I will post pics once I install the spray bars. 

The backround is DIY with eggcrate ligh fixture base with Great Stuff foam sprayed in diagonal stripes with gaps inbetween for plants. It is attached with suction cups for quick removal. The middle blue part is tinfoil with blue saranwrap taped on the back glass in a cave shape and a blue party bulb under the aquarium shining up. If you are ever bored, crumple up a sheet of tinfoil, make a cave, and tape it on the back of your aquarium with a little light shining up. Neat huh?


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Very cool design, love the cave!

I do think you need a filter now for sure. Just not enough plant growth to take care of the cycle.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Looks good. Would you consider using some faster growing plants to start with? Thats what I did with mine. I will post the pictures. The plants are not the plants I will Have forever. Also, I was under the impression that mangrove trees grow to be about 10 feet tall? maybe we are talking about something totally different, but here in australia thats the case. Anyway, good luck.


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## aquariageek (May 27, 2006)

Grayum-

Could you list the critters you have in there?


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## dirtmonkey (Mar 12, 2007)

zer0zax, I'd add a lot of fast growers temporarily too. Since they're temporary, I'd look around for a big patch of Lysimachia nummularia (creeping jenny, very common around here). Take cuttings of the young upright green parts that are shooting up now, and you will have rooted fast growers sucking up nutrients within a week. They're free, and definitely grow fast indoors. The main plant in the ground will grow back right away, they're almost weeds at my place. If you like them enough, they'll enjoy scrambling around the land parts too, and as long as rooted in your soil underwater can help continue aerating that.

You can also get a bunch of Spathiphyllum and Syngonium from Fred Meyer, cut off all but the newest roots, and prop them up so most of the leaves are out of the water. They'll start growing new water roots and using nutrients pretty fast. Be sure to wash them off in a mild dish detergent, then soak and flush in fresh water several times to get rid of the dishsoap and any pesticides along with it. I haven't had any problems with greenhouse plants that way so far, but I don't let the dropped leaves stay in the tank for a few months, just in case they have any chemicals left in them that could be released back in the water.

Another outdoor plant that's fun to use is the piggyback plant (Tolmeia mensiezii). It's native here but you can also buy them as hanging plants at Fred Meyer or other places as houseplants. It doesn't much like tropical temperatures for the long-term, but you can float mature leaves that have plantlets, they will root and grow for quite a while that way.

One of the basics is definitely getting as much plant growth going on in there immediately on setup. it isn't a pretty design at first, but the plants you have will eventually fill in and you can start removing things you don't like as much then. Your fish sound like they're doing OK after a couple months though, so things aren't all bad. I think once you've got that 2 inches of soil full of roots it would be OK. Especially since you've got the equivalent of a 50 gallon tank of water over it (I'm guessing, unless a lot of that is filled with built-up land parts)

Since you already have the mangroves, Sagittaria subulata, and java fern, you've got a good start on a brackish for the goby... Some of the Echinodorus swords also tolerate salt, and the mangroves will thank you very much for it!

Vincent

P.S.- as 01krisp10 mentioned, the buffering is a good thing, probably coming up through your open goarse gravel from the oyster shell. I don't think that many plant people here in Portland would argue about it being a good thing for plant growth in out water. Almost all of my plants do better if I add a little bit of broken seashells or coral to the tank. The pH of our city water is raised up a little only by sodium hydroxide- it reacts with organics quickly and doesn't stick around long enough to provide any buffering.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Hey, we have 2 Eastern Water Dragons. That is all...


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate your thoughts! 01krisp10, I now have 3 times as much plants compared to the picture above, but you are right, I still need the filter until everything gets established and grows in well.

That is a killer looking tank Grayum, all of the other water dragon tanks I have seen were plain wood and small, your dragons look like they are living the life! My mangroves are growing slow, but quicker than I expected. It took about 2 months for them to go from stage 1 pods to having 4 leaves and 2 inch roots. When they grow a little more I will start trimming them kind of like bonsai. My goal is to have living driftwood/roots.

Believe it or not dirtmonkey, my old paludarium setup did have creeping jenny! Only I paid $8 for it at a pond shop. Last summer when I was fishing I saw it growing out of a pond and covering the whole hill . That plant did grow nice and every 2 weeks I would rip a ton of it out, I can't believe I forgot about it so I will get some more (from the pond!!).

I am still waiting on the spraybars but they should be here soon, and I will hook one up on each side behind my background and put filter floss behind the background also with 2 filters. This will make a big wet wall and I can let creeping jenny, ivy and moss root in and grow through the cracks. I feel like a traitor now because I bought crushed coral sand and I am going to rescape without soil, but I will use hidden pots for my swords so I hope everyone can forgive me! I traded in all my fish but I still hung onto the stupid goby, he digs and moves thumb sized rocks with his mouth and eats a ton.


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

I have one last question!! I set up a 5 gallon bucket filled with dechlorinated water the same way I would go about a water change, so I could see what comes out of my tap.

PH: 6.4
KH: 0ppm
GH: <10ppm
Ammonia: .5ppm !!!!!
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
:icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak: :icon_oak:

I have Superman vision and I passed kindergarten with flying colors, so looking at little color block tests pose no problems, but .5ppm of ammonia seems to be way to high coming straight from the tap (dechlorinated with AquaSafe).

Does anyone else have detectable ammonia from the tap??? What to do George, what to do?


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## zer0zax (Mar 25, 2007)

I know this thread is already dragged out, but I got tired of a rock only aquarium and since I am unwilling to go brackish I am going to trade in the violet goby and do my research like I should. I am giving the big tank:bathbaby: to my brother and am going to set up a 40gal with 2watts/gal, an honest inch of soil and a REAL plant mass from the get go. Thanks for all of the input and encouragement, that is what makes this forum stand out! rayer:


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## strange_screams (Apr 10, 2005)

when i lived in houston i had almost 2 ppm out of the tap, they treat the water with cloramin, which is clorine and amonia combined, many water conditioners just treat the clorine, you have to have one that treats both, but even then the ammonia is still left

I used RO water in houston, here (small town in east texas) i get .5 out of the tap, i fill a 5 gallon bucket with water after a water change and put a mini filter for a 2 gallon tank(made by aquaclear)....with no filter media in it, just to move water, ammonia will disapateinto the air with time, the filter increases the surface exchange....and then a week later, the water is much better....but such small ammount of ammonia arent harmful if you have enough plants....they will suck it up quick


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Ammonia out of the tap isn't too unusual, though certainly not good for the fish. Luckily the plants will quickly take up any ammonia that's introduced fairly quickly. Even so however, it makes sense to follow strange_screams' advice and age the water with a filter for a couple of days.

I had a company test my water before I bought my house and their results state that the EPA places no limits on the amount of ammonia that can be present in drinking water.... go figure.

-ricardo


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