# So, I messed up didn't I?



## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Hello, newbie here.

So, I've run dirted nanos before; more specifically three 15Ls (4G) and an 8L (2G). I've basically been making wild guesses when it comes to soil, as I can't find Miracle Grow in Australia. Two went great immediately, the other two had some ugly starts involving a lot of tannins and a lot of diatoms, after which they would clear up and come good. Basically, I thought I had a handle on this ****.

Long story short, I got myself some Big Girl Money. I got myself a Big Girl 130L tank (35G). 

I spent....

Some Big Girl money.

Results of said Big Girl Money can be seen in the pictures below.

Soil depth varies from less than an inch of combined soil and cap in the foreground and about 4-5 inches in the back. The soil was marked as not having added ferts or wetting agents. As you can see, I put Big Wood and Big Rocks all through the thing. There's probably barely a few mm of dirt under the rocks themselves, but some there nevertheless. There's vallisneria at the back, four crypt pots, a handful of rotala stems, a pot of lilaeopsis, bolbitis, and a metric load of java fern. The sides and front are a mix of various small swords, monte carlo, and some pogostemon helferi, most of which have since melted into oblivion. On the rocks themselves is a mixture of buce varieties and anubias varieties. 

Up and running for two weeks. Ammonia spike down. Onto the nitrite spike. Our water is rainwater with a PH of 7.4, GH 0 KH 0. I threw some of my parrot's shell grit in there which seems to have raised the GH/KH to 4 each.

Lets be honest, most of the side plants have melted. I know they're transitioning, but I don't think that postemon is going to make it... The front is also so awkwardly shallow replanting is a nightmare now that its full.

Essentially, I'm going through my Obligatory Panic Phase, involving doubts about how thin the soil is in the front, how deep it is in the back, how many plants, how few plants, how many deadzones I may have added with all that very pretty, very expensive stone, aaaaaand...

What sort of disaster potential are we looking at here?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC and don't panic. I love the layout of stones and wood!

You don't have large areas of wood resting on soil that I can see, and that is where the problem starts. It is best if stones do not cover soil at all, but a very thin layer of soil underneath is not terrible.

My biggest concern is the depth of substrate at the back, 4-5" is too deep. Would it be possible to siphon out some of the cap and soil, and then recap the remaining thinner soil layer?

The shallow substrate in the front is very difficult to plant in. But any plants with rhizomes or stolons will spread into it over time and their growth won't be affected much. And you could add half an inch of cap to the front just to make planting easier.

You may need to tinker with the chemistry of your very soft water more, but Diana will know more about that than I do.

I see no certain disasters in your future, LOL.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Sorry's taken me this long. I lost my site password and couldn't figure out how to get back in for a while.

I followed the recommendations of trying to make the depth at the back more shallow and managed to scrape away some of the cap and redistributed it a little better.

It has now been a little over a month and I've included a video of the tank in its current form (only one light on for mood lighting).

Thank you for the advice, so far so good I hope.

Edit: Revised Link


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## FlatfishTanker1 (Mar 13, 2020)

Looks good! I just set up a 40 gallon dirted tank myself about a month and a half ago. I would be a little concerned about the extreme softness of your water. There is a thread in this forum about how Ms. Walstad adds hardness to her water. Her recipe adds key nutrients that the plants need. I don't think you messed up - you had a learning experience! The biggest thing I learned about planting a fairly large tank is the large volume of plants you need to get started. It's much easier to start a jungle in a 4 - 10 gallon tank as compared to a 35 - 40 gallon tank.

Do you have any filtration going? Just wondering.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

FlatfishTanker1 said:


> I would be a little concerned about the extreme softness of your water.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Do you have any filtration going? Just wondering.


Last question first; it has a 800L/hr canister filter. I know these can be run with just water movement, but I'm being cautious with this one. It's about 50/50 Mechanical to Bio, though I'm tempted to add HyperSorb for a bit of extra polishing power.

For the water, I added some of my parrot's shell grit into the canister (go back to the vid and skip to near the end for a photobomb). When I tested my parameters last week they were sitting at PH 7, GH 6 KH 6. That said, I have no idea if the shell grit will eventually reach a certain GH saturation and stop leeching, or just indefinitely increase hardness...


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't think you need to worry about the shell grit raising your GH too much. It raises the KH, too, and that causes the pH to rise - become more alkaline. The higher the pH the less the grit can dissolve. Just think about it: if you drip acid, very low pH, on that grit it will fizz, which means it is dissolving the grit. Raise the pH and the fizzing drops off. That is extreme, but it still holds true for higher pH's.

El Natural tanks don't need filters, especially biological filters. If you just use the filter to get a mild amout of water movement that is helpful, and it seems that is what you have been doing.

You really have a masterpiece of a planted tank!!


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Looks very good.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Vallisneria said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmt4MSD76kM
> 
> Sorry's taken me this long. I lost my site password and couldn't figure out how to get back in for a while.
> 
> ...


Wow that's so beautiful! Cute bird, too!


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Aaaand despite several weeks of perfect tests, today I woke up to my fish gulping at the surface and have a 2ppm ammonia spike.

The soil has been belching a lot lately, so no clue if this is due to the soil setup or if I got slack with overfeeding. Mass water changes incoming and I guess time will tell.

Currently 8 weeks established.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Crud. So after a suprise spike of 2ppm and emergency 50% water change, I seem to have this developing on my cap. Does anyone recognise this?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Is the belching smell of sulfur? The white tuft is probably fungus. I would vacuum the organic matter off the substrate.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think that you will have continual problems with this tank.

I see very few plants and too many rocks and too much driftwood. The driftwood and soil are both releasing organics into the water, creating fungus, cloudy water, ammonia, and taking oxygen out of the water. The substrate is probably undergoing a complete meltdown.

I don't think water changes _alone_ will help. I would remove the driftwood and most of the rocks and add more plants. I would gently poke the substrate each day to release the anaerobic gases that are building up. Use a sharp thin nail or opened paper clip. This will bring oxygenated water into the soil and keep plant roots from dying and making everything worse.

I think you have to be very careful trying aquascape an El Natural tank. The design of your tank is gorgeous, but an aquarium is not a painting. It is an ecosystem and has a life of its own. This one is dying. Wish I could be more optimistic.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> I think that you will have continual problems with this tank. [...] The substrate is probably undergoing a complete meltdown. [...] This one is dying. Wish I could be more optimistic.


I also wish I could act like this news is a complete surprise; I knew it was a likelihood ever since I originally made the post. Folks seemed optimistic, so I probably kept this going longer than I should have...

In hindsight, I should have tore it down sooner.

As a stop-gap I have added Hypersorb to the filter, equivalent to treat 70 Gallons (mine is a 35). It promises to absorb dissolved gasses and organic waste, so hopefully that will take the edge off for the fish until I fix this.

For my education: what happens when the soil undergoes/completes this meltdown? I assume my answer is more-or-less 'unsalvageable toxic mess?'

I will include an example of the bubbles being released from the tank (approx 13 seconds in) during yesterday's water change in case it is of any use. I will see these roughly every hour, sometimes that size, usually twice the size, and rarely triple or quadruple the size. I have not noticed any particular smell, although the tank does have a well-fitting lid.





Link for those who cannot use the in-built player.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The gas is problem co2 if no smells are present. Your soil is working as it should, probably just too much organics with the driftwood and mulm on the substrate.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Vallisneria - once your Hypersorb exhausts, you might want to try Purigen, it is being said to be superior in dissolved organic carbon removal. Also you could consider raising ORP (basically amount of dissolved Oxygen) to speed up mulm/soil decomposition (Purigen should to do this as a "side effect", but a guaranteed and easy way is to use hydrogen peroxide or strong aeriation).


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

mysiak said:


> Vallisneria - once your Hypersorb exhausts, you might want to try Purigen, [...] but a guaranteed and easy way is to use hydrogen peroxide or strong aeriation).


I got recommended hypersorb as apparently it doesn't remove all the tannins in blackwater tanks, but I think you may be correct that this might require the Big Guns at the present time. I will endeavour to change over ASAP.

Do you have an indication of the dose rate for hydrogen peroxide?

As of the water change the fish have been staying off the surface. My shrimp were also unbothered the entire time, whereas I'm used to them clinging to the surface if oxygen drops. I'm cautiously hopeful the gasping fish had more to do with the ammonia and less to do with the oxygen, but I doubt I have a way to know for certain.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Yes, Purigen will remove pretty much all tannins, but you can stop using it once the tank stabilizes and adding tannins back is pretty easy (catappa leaves for example). To my understanding Hypersorb should remove them as well, it's compared to be a equivalent of activated carbon. But maybe it's less effective in their removal, I have first hand experience only with Purigen and carbon. 

I would use H2O2 amounts mentioned in this page, section "As an oxygen aid" - these are very safe values. In "dirty" tanks you might increase the dose significantly, but I would (and I personally do) "overdose" only with strong water movement - hydrogen peroxide is heavier than water and in stagnant water and at high amounts it can damage plants or livestock living at the bottom of the tank.

Some fish are extremely adaptable to low oxygen levels and won't show visible discomfort until it's very low. However I was suggesting increasing dissolved oxygen mainly as a benefit for bacteria living in/on substrate, so they will decompose organic matter quicker and under aerobic conditions (as much as possible).


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Urgh, okay, so, last night:

1. I took all the rocks out from the back that had basically been covered by plants anyway. 

2. I poked the soil with my planting tweasers until bubbled stopped coming out. These bubbles did not appear to have any particular odor. I called my fiance over to confirm as he has experience with agricultural sulfur, and he sniffed the tank after the bubbles emerged, shrugged, and said 'smells like a lake to me'.

3. I salvaged an old bucket of leftover plants and recovered a mix of about 20 stems of vallisneria (name drop) and some short offshoots, and indespersed them through the section that had priorly been rocked over.

4. Another 50% water change for good measure because my water was most displeased with all the dirt I'd disturbed.

This morning: 

5. Ammonia pictured below. I believe it's still rising, but given it was at 2ppm before that's better than it was. Doing another 25% at time of typing.

6. Fungus appears to be disappearing; reduced by 70%.

How long should I give the ammonia to disappear before calling this a bust?

In the week prior to the spike, I had also added two crushed XL Cappa leaves, added four new fish, and had most certainly been overfeeding frozen food that had been sitting thawed in water for too long...

I'm sure none of that is helping my case...


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Vallisneria said:


> Urgh, okay, so, last night:
> 
> 1. I took all the rocks out from the back that had basically been covered by plants anyway.
> 
> ...


I just want to say this must be so frustrating for you! If you have to tear it down and start over, it won't be the end of the world. You can replant the plants, and relocate the fish temporarily even to a bucket. For the wood in my tank, I glued it to a rock that would keep it above the substrate, and the rock sits on the bottom of the tank (I bought a custom cut piece of marine grade plastic to cover the bottom of the tank to protect the glass from the rocks). I used a piece of green scrubby pad (just make sure it's stainless steel - they usually are). Then, just search youtube for "superglue" and "cigarette butt" and use the same method, but with just the cheapo scrubby pad. You soak the scrubby pad with superglue, then attach it to the rock, then put the wood on it in place, and hold it there or devise some sort of clamp, until it holds. It's a way to glue odd shaped pieces together. Worked great for me. I didn't have cigarette butts, and tried the scubby pad and it worked great. Plus, you get a larger surface than a cigarette butt. Then, you can use smaller pieces to shove into gaps and squirt a bunch of superglue into that space.

Then, you could put a bunch of soil around the rock under the wood piece and plant in that soil. And, maybe attach some plants to the wood, like moss or java ferns, here and there.

For me, my tank really turned around - finally cycled - after I finally listened to the people here on this forum and planted a bunch of vallisneria (okay to name drop he he). I needed more fast-growing deep-rooted plants. You can maybe remove them later, if you can get things stabilized without them. I have a large rock in my aquarium that I may need to remove after I add all of the fish I want to add. I'm prepared for that, but hopeful it can stay. I'm ever hopeful I can figure out a way to make things work. Sometimes it works not to give up and sometimes I end up having to give up 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It is really helpful for newbies like me to learn from others.

I'm sure your nice fiance will help


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Vallisneria said:


> Urgh, okay, so, last night:
> 
> 1. I took all the rocks out from the back that had basically been covered by plants anyway.
> 
> ...


I would not give up on this tank or tear it down. It sounds like you are doing many of the right things. If you can get the Vallisneria and other plant growing, they will take care of the ammonia.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I’m starting to think not every soil is suitable, just too much organics or possible added urea. Top soil seems like the best start, lower in organics. We can amend it with extra minerals if needed.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

I'd like to thank you Karen for your detailed explanation that made me feel a lot better about the potential of a teardown, and Ms Walstad for the encouragement.

Short update only as it's late now, but it seems the ammonia is staying steady at 0 since the last water change. Last night my nitrite was reading 0.50, so I put in Prime hoping to conduct the change this morning, but 9 hours after it was back to 0 on its own.

Soil magic or a messed up test? Who knows.

My water is cloudy, which is disappointing as it was actually quite clear the week before all this started. I plan to continue testing daily and hope.

Here's hoping week 9 behaves itself more than week 8.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Is the driftwood still in the tank? Cloudy water means something in tank is releasing bacteria food--(DOC) dissolved organic carbon.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Is the driftwood still in the tank? Cloudy water means something in tank is releasing bacteria food--(DOC) dissolved organic carbon.


It is, as is the Indian Almond leaves. I put the wood in first so it was touching the bottom of the tank, and built the dirt and substrate up around it, so removing it would be.... messy at _best_. I would definitely have to tear it down to remove the wood.

Are these DOC's harmful, or purely cosmetic?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DOC is not necessarily harmful. I'm not talking about cosmetic effects. If _excessive_ DOC stimulates bacterial growth, that growth may remove oxygen from the water and substrate, killing fish and plants, respectively.

However, if the cloudiness contains single-celled algae, they will counteract the problem by producing photosynthetic oxygen. Thus, you may have green-water algae, but it won't hurt the fish.

The "acid test" is how the plants and fish are doing in your tank.

Perhaps the cloudiness will resolve itself over time and everything will turn out fine and you can keep the driftwood. I hope so.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Belated reply, and again thank you to all responders.

Parameters have stabilised I think; no change in three days. I'll keep monitoring, but it's a big improvement.

Most of the tannins are sucked out now leaving only a pale haze. I guess I'll continue doing water changes and keep an eye on things.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

Double post but HOLY **** GUYS I THINK I CRACKED IT.

So my tank used to have bladder snails. A lot of bladder snails. I used to routinely be able to smash several of them just with the amount that used to crawl up the glass.

A few weeks back, I also had the beginning of a Hydra infestation. I have shrimp tanks, so I have some Benibachi Planaria Zero on hand, which kills hydra and is meant to be a purely natural source of control for hydra and planaria that's perfectly shrimp safe.

No problem, I thought. I'll do one dose and that should sort it. Two days later, no more hydra. Perfect.

Now, I know I've read this product can kill snails, but I've used it plenty of times in tanks containing ramshorns with no issues. Sure enough, the ramshorns are still knocking around just fine.

See where I'm going with this?

I've literally only just noticed today that my hundreds and hundreds of bladder snails seem to have miraculously disappeared. And yes, the timing aligns perfectly with the massive ammonia spike I've been having, which was shortly after the dose of Planaria Zero.

Guys, I think I killed my city of bladder snails.

I think it was me this whole time.

I can't believe I didn't notice this sooner.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beautiful tank! 

Extra DOC also provides CO2 and stimulates plant growth. I have some tanks with cloudy water and don't mind it.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Be aware that you won't be able to have shrimps in your tank. Those 'meds' have copper which will kill any invertebrates. I don't think leave the tank easily.


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## Vallisneria (Jun 12, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> Be aware that you won't be able to have shrimps in your tank. Those 'meds' have copper which will kill any invertebrates. I don't think leave the tank easily.


The product I used is derived from natural palm family betel wax and is designed in Japan SPECIFICALLY for shrimp tanks. I've used it in my breeding colonies of shrimp tanks many times for that reason.

Expensive, but 1000% safe if you're not a bladder snail lmao. My cherries and Australian amanos that are in the tank have been wilfully going on their lives


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Oh interesting about the betel killing snails. It's a stimulant in humans


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