# Val dying in new setup



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I just received the several questions from a hobbyist in India who is having problems with his new setup.

"The tank is a 20 gallon one of the following dimensions 2 ft. × 1 ft. × 1.3 ft. I have put the usual sieved potting soil _along with fertilisers_ [my emphasis], which covers about 1 inch from the base of the tank. Above it, there are layers of black sand and tiny black gravels (diam. 2 to 3 cm approx.). I have planted 26 Echinodorous Tenellus for forming a carpet, 2 Vallisneria Asiatica for the background, 4 Hygrophila Difformis and 3 Dwarf Grass, all in fully immersed condition. The dwarf grass and val have been planted for about 5 days now but they seem to be dying off and the leaves are turning pale brown, transparent or shredding off. The other two varieties have only been planted a day before and they seem green and fine until now. I am using a 15W CFL white bulb, a 12W T4 submersible and a 7W LED for the lighting and though the tank is placed near a window it doesn't get direct sunlight. I'm not injecting any external CO2 either. I have not added new fishes lest they die or disturb the plants. I'm not being able to check if the tank has been cycled yet as it has only been 5 days since I added water and here in India, none of the pet stores I visited sell test kits to check water quality. If I try however I might manage pH strips.

I have 1 snakeskin cobra male, 1 neon tetra, 14 red delta guppies and 5 crossbreeds in different bowls waiting to be added to the tank.

I would be indebted to you if you tell me if I'm going wrong somewhere as the vals and dwarf don't seem fine at all.

Do I need to add some external CO2 or more lighting? 
Can Co2 be supplied to the tank by keeping the air stone running as long as the lights are on? 
When can I safely add fishes to the tank?
Is my choice of plants fine?"

My response:
Sorry to hear about your problems. Based on your questions, I suspect that you haven't read my book and have tried to cobble together ideas off the Internet. Thus, the confusion&#8230;

Your plant choice is fine, very good, actually. Plants like Val dying in 5 days tells me that there's something MAJOR wrong in the tank.

It could be that the soil fertilizer is killing the plants. What fertilizers did you add to the soil and how much? As I wrote in my book, many common soil fertilizers (ammonium nitrate, potassium sulfate, etc) are fine as garden fertilizers. But when they are submerged underwater in an anaerobic environment, bacteria convert them to toxins like H2S (hydrogen sulfide) and nitrite. H2S will kill plant roots; nitrite will kill the fish. Thus, I strongly recommend against adding any inorganic fertilizers to soil, especially an organic soil like potting soil.

The other possibility, but less likely, is that the water is too soft (no calcium) or contains massive amounts of toxic heavy metals like copper. You should be able to ask around or call water department for answer to the water hardness and copper questions.

CO2 is not the problem or the answer in this situation. (Val can use bicarbonates for its carbon, and doesn't need added CO2. Potting soil gives off a ton of CO2 first year.)

_Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ is available as a relatively inexpensive eBook to Indian hobbyists. It contains scientific information that hobbyists can use for a better understanding of what's going on in their tanks. It's not just a list of instructions. [BTW, I am very pleased to see that lately I've been getting some book sales (13 last month) in India.]


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Vallisneria is quite a strange plant for me - at first it didn't grow well, after couple of weeks it took off and was almost everywhere. I had to remove new plants every week to keep it in control. Then, out of nowhere it dissappeared to the point that I have a single plant left. This one hasn't died, doesn't really grow anymore and doesn't spread. It just sits there, waiting..for couple of months already.

I can't figure out what happened..water is hard, other plants grow fine (Crypts, Echinodorus, stem plants..), limits for heavy metals in drinking water are strict here, so there shouldn't be anything toxic. In theory, I should have big success with this plant. Maybe our Indian friend has similar "mystery" going on in his tank..?


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

@mysiak i had the same thing happen to my vallisneria a long time ago before i got rid of it.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Me, too! Vallisneria always died out in tanks with a soil layer that it shared with Cryptocoryne, Amazons, etc. I remember trying time-after-time with two different Val species. It just faded away and I gave up on it. And I have hardwater.

That said, the _Vallisneria spiralis_ that I have now is growing like crazy in 5 different tanks. I have it potted in garden soil with a little bone meal. Attached are two pictures.

I smell root allelopathy (My book. Chapter 3). Val doesn't like to share substrates with other plants.

However, I am getting side-tracked. The hobbyist who requested assistance indicated a general poor growth of all his plants not just Val.

If he's still there, he should send a picture.


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## suprio.das (Apr 24, 2018)

Thank you everyone for your valuable insights.
​I have used 50-100 grams of a local organic soil fertilizer in 7-8 kgs. of potting soil. The compositions is as follows:

Nitrogen 3.20%
Phosphorus 3.60% 
Potassium 1%
Calcium 14.8%
Magnesium 0.1%
Manganese 0.07%
Copper 0.06%
Zinc 0.21%,
Sulphur 11.25% 
Silicone 2%
Humus 24.26%
Moisture 4%

Do you think this composition is harmful for the plants I am trying to grow? I will try to post some pictures soon.


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## suprio.das (Apr 24, 2018)

The first photo is of the tank when it was set up a week ago. 
The other photos shows the current condition of the plants


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## suprio.das (Apr 24, 2018)

This plant was uprooted on its own and I found it floating today morning. 
Are the roots dying off?


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## suprio.das (Apr 24, 2018)

I ordered the Vals online, they were very small and had brown leaves when I received them.
The leaves were melting off initially as stated in my query but since the past two days I have noticed that both the Vals are developing new leaf from the central node.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

@suprio.das - in your first message posted by Diana (I hope she doesn't mind calling her by first name ) you say that your plants are in immersed condition, but to my eye they look like emersed plants freshly planted under water and being transitioned to submersed growth. From my experience, plants from shops or professional nurseries are rarely fully adapted to underwater conditions and I always expect quite massive die-off during transition period, which can take couple of weeks depending on the species. If possible, always try to get established plants from another hobbyist, especially if you want or need "instant growth". 

Btw. Echinodorus tenellus did the same thing to me - I had to replant it several times and from about 15 plants only 5 survived and even those show minimum growth. In my tank they were constantly uprooted by fish and snails.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

suprio.das said:


> This plant was uprooted on its own and I found it floating today morning.
> Are the roots dying off?


Yes, the roots are dying. I would cut off the dead root material with sharp razor or scissors and replant it. Use a small stone to hold it down temporarily.

Mysiak is correct about purchased plants usually being emersed. But many plants can overcome this.

Main problem: There are a lot of potential toxins generated in a freshly submerged soil (first 6-8 weeks), especially in organic soils like yours. You've also added fertilizers, which adds to the problem. The soil goes severely anaerobic and then you get all kinds of stuff that will hurt/kill plant roots.

What you can do is to poke your substrate with a sharp object--long slim nail, unfolded paper clip, etc. This will introduce oxygenated water into the substrate and relieve the problem. It will discourage severely anaerobic bacteria (fermenters, sulfate-reducers, etc) that generate the toxins. Oxygen will encourage good bacteria, _especially_ the H2S oxidizers. I would do this every day especially around the plants until the plants start growing. I know you will do it carefully so as not to disturb plant roots.

That one new leaf on the Val is promising.

Thanks for sending such nice pictures with plants labelled, etc.


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## suprio.das (Apr 24, 2018)

Thank you for your insights. Sorry I couldn't reply earlier.
Update:
The difformis are growing well, giving out new leaves and roots. Both the Vals have grown new leaves and looking to be doing well. Five-Six Echinidorus Tenellus are growing new leaves. But the other ones have not died yet. Yes there seemed to be a major leaf fall in all plants initially but now they are stagnant and I am having high hopes that they will come up. The dwarf hairgrass are barely surviving. In the meantime, an army of snails have hatched from eggs carried by the difformis. They are cleaning a bit of brown algae formed on the plants' leaves and stems. 

@mysiak:I also realized the plants are grown immersed as the Difformis have two different types of leaves. But I couldn't get them from a hobbyist. 

@dwalstad: Dear Ma'am, as per your advice, I am poking the substrate to release trapped air, mostly around the plant. Echinidorus tenellus have started to grow new leaves after I started to poke the substrate and I am hoping that they will grow. 

I want to ask a few questions:
1. When do I add fish in the tank as I can't test whether it has completed cycling? Is there any visual indication for the same?
2. What should be the water change/ maintenance schedule as of now?

I would try to post a few photos soon.


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