# Can tanks be overplanted initially? I might have gone overboard.



## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

Hello APC community! First time poster here and very new with aquariums in general, i have some experience with bioactive invert vivariums, so when considering an aquarium, planted dirted tank seemed to make more sense to me.

I decided to give it a small test run in an 8 liter (2 point a little gallon) bowl I already had. 

Set up two days ago on 17th of January.

For soil I used Kano 2, a locally made organic cactus substrate, consisting of peat (which appered to be pretty fine, dark and well decomposed), some sand, some clay, some sort of liming agent, which was not clearly identified, I suspect some form of calcium carbonate or maybe dolomite flour, and a small amount of fermented poultry manure (chose the cactus substrate as it had the least amount of poultry manure added). I sifted and thoroghly moistened the substrate before applying 2.5 cm (an inch) to the bottom of the bowl. For cap I used the same thickness of 1-3 mm fraction gravel.

Ligtt is pretty experimental, I'm trying to use a ligt therapy lamp (6000K, about 1500-2000 lux at the distance I keep it from the bowl currently, no clue how much PAR does that give me), on about 13 hours a day excluding 2 hours siesta, I'm willing to upgrade if this does not work.

For plants I got: one large emersed grown Cryptocoryne wendtii, one emersed grown Bucephalandra, a pot of tissue culture grown Hygrophila corymbosa Thailand (which came with lots of leaves dead, removed as much of those as I could, still looked pretty leafy going in tho) an one pot of tissue culture grown Helianthum tenellum, a small handful of hornworts and a small handful of Amazonian frogbit. Planted it all. Filled up with water, had some milky cloudiness initially but that settled entirely in 5 or so hours. Sent photo to my dad, he asked, if I was making kimchi in that bowl. Tested water (unfortunately with strip for all but ammonia, which I got a test kit for). NO3 under 10, NO2 under 0.5, GH somewhere between 7-14, kH 15, pH 7.6, CO2 calculated from the table that came with the kit came as 11, ammonia at 0.

Tested yesterday, 24 hours after setup, kH had decreased to 6-10 which influenced the CO2 calculation to be lower, and I might be seeing a hint of ammonia, but less than the first readable color of the ammonia test kit, so might have just been a hint of tannins in the water, I suck at color charts. The rest the same.

What should be my next steps? Let it be and keep testing? Wait for the initial melt to be over and new growth appearing? What's a signal that water change is appropriate?

Also, some questions about critters... How do I know it's safe/appropriate to introduce some? and what can live in such a bowl? Would a nerite and eventually 2 cherry shrimp be reasonable, or should I look for a smaller species of snail? Just nerite and no shrimp?

Thanks for the input!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Send one or two pictures.


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

Here it is!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

This is a great looking bowl. The only drawback I can see is that, if this is how it looks after only 8 hours, there's no room for improvement! A small, algae-eating, snail species could come in handy. Once the plants start losing leaves, they can help break them down into nutrients.


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> This is a great looking bowl. The only drawback I can see is that, if this is how it looks after only 8 hours, there's no room for improvement! A small, algae-eating, snail species could come in handy. Once the plants start losing leaves, they can help break them down into nutrients.


Oh, thanks! I'm kinda afraid that once the hygrophila and helianthum from tissue cultures start growing, i will need to thin or trim it out a fair bit, they are deffinately very densly planted at this point... but i guess it's easier to take out than it is to add more.

Can a snail go in at this point or should i wait for some more and keep testing? 

Also how do i know if my ammonia kit is actually working? it's a Salifert ammonia kit, do they ever come faulty?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I think you're good to go as far as the snails. You don't have a lot of "hot" soil to contend with and you're measuring -0- ammonia. Snails should help keep things in equilibrium, especially once leaves start rotting.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Your bowl looks great! One suggestion would be that your floaters seem a bit large for the bowl. The roots are reaching to the bottom (and further) and they seem to be blocking out some light. You could consider some smaller varieties of floating plants (I love salvinia minima) or if you want to keep those, just remove them often enough to keep the light level in check.

Otherwise - no, this doesn't look too densely planted. I don't know if there's even such a thing 😉 That could be why you are getting low ammonia readings. So many plants right off the bat will be consuming all the available ammonia. The plants that were emersed will die off a bit, but should recover. Some species may not work at all and will completely die off - this is normal and happens to everyone. 

Snails are pretty much safe to go in from the get-go. They are very hardy. Bladder snails seem to survive just about anything. If you're going with any more expensive types of snails, wait till you are getting consistent low ammonia readings for a few days. Then it's safe to add livestock. Unfortunately test strips are notoriously inaccurate, so it's hard to say if it's correct...maybe consider investing in a drop test kit. 

Good luck, and great start so far!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

There's going to be some _heavy_ plant competition in this bowl! It will be interesting to see if the Crypt and the Buce, both emersed-grown, can adapt to submersed condition. (You could let a few of their leaves poke up above water?)

I think you made an excellent soil choice--organic cactus soil. It is designed for slow cactus growth, contains hardwater minerals and organic matter (for generating CO2).

Make sure you remove dying and decomposing plant matter. Don't let the floating plants block out light for the rooted plants below.

I would definitely add snails to this bowl to help with decomposition and monitor its "livability."


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

A little update! Some of the frogbit roots are melting, i try to fish out as many as i notice, as soon as they start to look mushy. I guess it was to be expected. Crypt has so far one leaf that looks like it's a gonner, hygrophila is losing a leaf here and there, bucephalandra however i think was even pearling a little yesterday, but it did seem to be the most healthy plant going in as well. 
I will run a water test tomorrow morning, i have a feeling the results won't be that great, but we will see. 
i feel like i really need a snail to deal with the small sinking bits of debris from the frogbit roots that i miss, but snail availability is not the greatest currently. Most places around me practice fairly 'sterile' aquarium keeping, so pond or similar 'pest' snails are hard to come by. Mystery snails and nerites are readily available, but mystery snails i believe are way too big, active and messy to work in such a tiny environment, and a nerite, i honestly am not sure if nerite can handle the potentially out of whack water that great... Would you risk it?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Hoplocampa said:


> A little update! Some of the frogbit roots are melting, i try to fish out as many as i notice, as soon as they start to look mushy. I guess it was to be expected. Crypt has so far one leaf that looks like it's a gonner, hygrophila is losing a leaf here and there, bucephalandra however i think was even pearling a little yesterday, but it did seem to be the most healthy plant going in as well.
> I will run a water test tomorrow morning, i have a feeling the results won't be that great, but we will see.
> i feel like i really need a snail to deal with the small sinking bits of debris from the frogbit roots that i miss, but snail availability is not the greatest currently. Most places around me practice fairly 'sterile' aquarium keeping, so pond or similar 'pest' snails are hard to come by. Mystery snails and nerites are readily available, but mystery snails i believe are way too big, active and messy to work in such a tiny environment, and a nerite, i honestly am not sure if nerite can handle the potentially out of whack water that great... Would you risk it?


My experience with Mystery snails is that they're primarily scavengers and not necessarily great at removing algae or plant waste.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hoplocampa said:


> A little update! Some of the frogbit roots are melting, i try to fish out as many as i notice, as soon as they start to look mushy. I guess it was to be expected. Crypt has so far one leaf that looks like it's a gonner, hygrophila is losing a leaf here and there, bucephalandra however i think was even pearling a little yesterday, but it did seem to be the most healthy plant going in as well.
> I will run a water test tomorrow morning, i have a feeling the results won't be that great, but we will see.
> i feel like i really need a snail to deal with the small sinking bits of debris from the frogbit roots that i miss, but snail availability is not the greatest currently. Most places around me practice fairly 'sterile' aquarium keeping, so pond or similar 'pest' snails are hard to come by. Mystery snails and nerites are readily available, but mystery snails i believe are way too big, active and messy to work in such a tiny environment, and a nerite, i honestly am not sure if nerite can handle the potentially out of whack water that great... Would you risk it?


I meant ordinary, small, snails- pond snails, Ramshorn snails, Malaysian Trumpet snails. I don't consider them pests. Rather, they are helpful creatures that quickly recycle debris into nutrients that plants can use.


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

Update! Water tests seemed ok for the last three days, but a lot of the frogbit roots have gone mushy. Did a small, maybe 25%water change and tried to pick out as many of the dead plant parts as i could catch.
Found someone willing to part from some, I think 6 or 7 baby Malaysian trumpet snails, so those are going in today! Bucephalandra is unfolding a new leaf. Overall pretty happy with the progress so far! Thanks for the tips and the warm welcome!


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Nice! The MTS will reproduce very quickly once they get older. I started with 5 last year and have literally hundreds now. Mostly they're hidden on/in the substrate during the day, so it doesn't even look infested.


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

jatcar95 said:


> Nice! The MTS will reproduce very quickly once they get older. I started with 5 last year and have literally hundreds now. Mostly they're hidden on/in the substrate during the day, so it doesn't even look infested.


I'm a little worried about bioload when the snails start to reproduce, as the small bowl only can support as many and i was hoping a couple of cherry shrimp could eventually go in, but i guess we will see... 
Frogbit is making a mess in the bowl tho, long roots are melting and brown algae are growing on the dead ones, some of the stronger plants however are sprouting new short roots, so i think they will eventually adjust.

Should i dim the light one notch or just keep removing chunks? I'm kinda reluctant to dim the light as the crypt still has a lot of foliage and is shading most of the tank!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hoplocampa said:


> I'm a little worried about bioload when the snails start to reproduce, as the small bowl only can support as many and i was hoping a couple of cherry shrimp could eventually go in, but i guess we will see...
> Frogbit is making a mess in the bowl tho, long roots are melting and brown algae are growing on the dead ones, some of the stronger plants however are sprouting new short roots, so i think they will eventually adjust.
> 
> Should i dim the light one notch or just keep removing chunks? I'm kinda reluctant to dim the light as the crypt still has a lot of foliage and is shading most of the tank!


I'm not sure I would dim the lights. You may have to play with this tank a little. I see about 20 variables....
That's too bad about the Frogbit melting. In your first photo, they looked very healthy. Such rapid decomposition and deterioration surprises me. What is the photoperiod for this tank?
That terrific that the Buce has sprouted a new leaf.
I am not sure why you couldn't add some shrimp.


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> I'm not sure I would dim the lights. You may have to play with this tank a little. I see about 20 variables....
> That's too bad about the Frogbit melting. In your first photo, they looked very healthy. Such rapid decomposition and deterioration surprises me. What is the photoperiod for this tank?
> That terrific that the Buce has sprouted a new leaf.
> I am not sure why you couldn't add some shrimp.



Thanks for all the input!
I think the frogbit melt has slowed down, and the algae so far seem to be limited mostly to frogbit root hairs. I'm fairly sure at least some of it will make it. 
The light is on for 6.5 or 7 hours in the morning, off for 2-3 and on for another 6 or so, i haven't automated it yet, so there are small irregularities. I feel i might need to reposition the lamp to be more directly above the tank, i think part of the issue is it's currently on a bit too much of an angle so there is a concentrated light spot where the frogbit roots hang and majority of algae are growing. Meanwhile the other side of tank is suboptimally lit.

My MTSs bring me so much joy tho! It's so lovely to see them just snailing around, polishing plants, hard at work, not a care in the world... And it seems i have a little hungry hitchiker living there too, a baby ramshorn! Ok, I admit, i just really love snails in general!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, there you have it!


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

johnwesley0 said:


> Well, there you have it!


Holy crap! I repositioned lamp, not sure what will it do to the tank in long term, but it makes for such a better wieving for sure, noticed not one but two ramshorns, a couple of nematodes, some tiny zippy organisms running around the water column (also noticed that hornwort in the previously shady corner is a bit sad, but i think with the new lamp position and trimming two dying crypt leaves just above it, it should get better, it totally looks like a light issue as the previously more illuminated edge of the hornwort area looks way better). Yes there is algae, but there is also so much life in there already! 

Gosh this project gives me joy! 

Bonus pic of my little ramshorn!


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Hoplocampa said:


> I'm a little worried about bioload when the snails start to reproduce


Snails don't produce waste out of thin air (water?). Unless you are intentionally adding more food the more snails you find, they'll just be recycling existing nutrients into other forms. Snails are very good at self-regulating their population size - they'll only reproduce to consume the amount of food available to them.


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

jatcar95 said:


> Snails don't produce waste out of thin air (water?). Unless you are intentionally adding more food the more snails you find, they'll just be recycling existing nutrients into other forms. Snails are very good at self-regulating their population size - they'll only reproduce to consume the amount of food available to them.


 Fair point! Though as there is a significant amount of plants that will probably lose some leaves for adjusting reasons (I try to stay on top or removing what goes mushy, but I miss some inevitably), as well as a bit more algae than I would like, I have a feeling there is enough biomass in there to turn into more snails than I need. But maybe I'm being paranoid. Anyway, some snails can always be trapped and rehomed, right? 

Do algae generally grow on plants that are struggling? So far everything else looks clean, but frogbit roots are the issue, ant the frogbit tops don't look that hot either. As I repositioned the lamp, I made the call to dim it one unit down, as it was moved relatively closer to the water surfaceand the algae were getting worse after a day or two...


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Light aimed directly at the Frog Bit _leaves_ should be a plus. Emergent and floating plants can use intense light effectively, much more so than submerged plants. In contrast, light aimed at the Frogbit roots could stimulate algae.
As to the FrogBit problems, conditions in this tank just may not be suitable for it. Maybe hard to sort out. (In a new setup, I can't imagine that it is iron deficiency, which creates problems for floating plants in old, well-established tanks.) 
That's why it's always good to do--as you have done--start right off with an assortment of species. Snail species should sort themselves out and at some point self-regulate their populations.
Enjoy your tank!


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## Hoplocampa (12 mo ago)

dwalstad said:


> Light aimed directly at the Frog Bit _leaves_ should be a plus. Emergent and floating plants can use intense light effectively, much more so than submerged plants. In contrast, light aimed at the Frogbit roots could stimulate algae.
> As to the FrogBit problems, conditions in this tank just may not be suitable for it. Maybe hard to sort out. (In a new setup, I can't imagine that it is iron deficiency, which creates problems for floating plants in old, well-established tanks.)
> That's why it's always good to do--as you have done--start right off with an assortment of species. Snail species should sort themselves out and at some point self-regulate their populations.
> Enjoy your tank!


I don't think iron defficiency could be the culprit, our tap water is iron rich (though it's +3 iron , the red one, do plants need +2 iron as well?), but frogbit is still giving me issues. It is growing new leaves, but the older ones die at about the same rate, and algae grow on roots. Ended up doing a water change just to suck out major clumps of algae of the roots. Everything else is mostly fine, maybe a teeny bit of brown algae, but not much. I'll keep eye out for some different floater I could use if frogbit gets unmanageable, but my local plant ''dealer'' stocks so unpredictably, I'm not sure it's feasible.

Overall I think I'm doing very well though. I guess I should just sit back and chill, nitrogen compounds are good (amonia spiked a teeny bit, under 0.25 units, but went back to nothing pretty quick, 0 nitrites and about 10 nitrates), so I think if nothing crashes, I will add shrimp around my birthday at the end of march. Crypt should have grown aquatic leaves by then I hope.


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