# [Wet Thumb Forum]-CO2 diffusers vs Reactors



## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

This subject may have been discussed previously, but I want to get some hard facts about it.

I have a few aquariums with injected CO2. I have diffusers with little powerheads over them to dispurse the gas.

I have had nice results, but would like to know more about the DIY reactors that folks build.

Although I have seen some different set up with these, I was wondering what kind of results any of you have noticed by making this switch.

I DO have a 55 gal right now that I have run the CO2 tubing into the intake so that the filter powerhead churns the gas before it spits it out into the aquarium. The results are acceptable, but I am always looking for something better.

Anyone want to share?


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

This subject may have been discussed previously, but I want to get some hard facts about it.

I have a few aquariums with injected CO2. I have diffusers with little powerheads over them to dispurse the gas.

I have had nice results, but would like to know more about the DIY reactors that folks build.

Although I have seen some different set up with these, I was wondering what kind of results any of you have noticed by making this switch.

I DO have a 55 gal right now that I have run the CO2 tubing into the intake so that the filter powerhead churns the gas before it spits it out into the aquarium. The results are acceptable, but I am always looking for something better.

Anyone want to share?


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## walpurgis999 (Feb 6, 2003)

This topic is also of personal interest to myself, if anyone here has valuable information--which I know most of you do--please let us know.

Shoplights are not an option, the underpower lights, and burn out in the long run.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Reactors hold/trap the CO2 until it is 100% dissolved, diffusers usually just break up the bubbles into smaller ones, and some CO2 is lost as the bubbles reach the surface.

hope that helps


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Hey walpurgis999, don't know if thats your tag line about the lights, but if not, try overdriving T8's

I have done this and will never go back to those pesky CF's. The only step up is MH as far as I am concerned...but lets stick to CO2 for the moment


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## MarkH (Feb 6, 2003)

well

I just recently got into this part of the hobby. I have a new CO2 setup, I got the aqua medic CO2 membrane Reactor and it is just bad. plain and simple it doesnt work properly. It is advertised as being able to deal with up to 40 bubbles a min but I have lots of trouble with more than 25 or so even right next to my outflow from my canister.

So I will be getting something new and this thread is now of interest to me







. I think im gonna take the diffuser out and just use my eheim filter to be my reactor until I can get something a bit more solid.


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Well, thats what I have been doing MarkH. My Fluval breaks it down and the results are decent dispurtion of the CO2, but not enough. 

About once an hour, the CO2 builds up in the Fluval and you can hear the powerhead start to churn and then the return spits out lot's of bubbles that float to the surface. Seems like a waste and the fish think it's O2 and swim into it.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Take a look at this:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/vortexreactor.html

I have the larger version of which which I like very much. Seems to be very effective in dissolving the CO2.

Bob


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## MarkH (Feb 6, 2003)

How often do you clean it Bob, I did look at the larger one myself but I thought it said something about needing a cleaning once a week and I would rather have something that didnt require me to break it down weekly to clean


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Here is 2 different ones I have built. 
Both cost less than $15CAD to build.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Mark H.

I do NOT clean mine regularly. At most, weekly, when I do a 50% water change, I remove whatever debris is stuck to the intake. that is it.
Sometimes, the sponge will get "pushed out and I have to reinsert it. Probably 4-5 times in the past several months.
Basically it just works.
Bob


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## walpurgis999 (Feb 6, 2003)

liquidgardens, I dont want to get into another discussion about shoplights and what not. But I do overdrive 4 T-8s on my 55g tank. I have two 4 light ballasts, running 2 lights per ballast--so thats 2X ODNO style lighting. I think it works great, and VERY bright.

Shoplights are not an option, the underpower lights, and burn out in the long run.


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Ok, I know something about the reactor question. On my 29 gallon I have used about every way you can imagine to get the CO2 into the water. The most efficient way I have found is my DIY reactor. In fact it is the only way I was ever able to get decent CO2 levels into the tank. So when I setup my 55 gallon tank I just went ahead and built the reactor.

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## Guest (Apr 17, 2003)

Looks like Ekim and Rex are very happy with their DIY CO2 reactors and I'm with them 100% on this subject.

I tried many ways to get my CO2 dissolved properly and found reactor by far the best out of all.

This is my current setup which I purchased from T.Barr few years back. I plan on using canister filled with additional bio-balls to run the reactor instead of internal powerhead.










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## walpurgis999 (Feb 6, 2003)

Ironically, before when I use to use DIY CO2 instead of Pressurized like I use now--I had better results. I didnt like the reactor that came with my CO2 system from aquabotanic.com so I tried doing it through a powerhead. I now have ordered this bad boy http://www.floridadriftwood.com/product.asp?0=217&1=253&3=147 and it is similiar to my original setup on my DIY CO2. I used to run a fluidized bed on my tank and had the output of it running into an old gravel vac. The current was slow, and the bubbles smashed up very slowly and went into the tank. I now realize that the bubbles where dissolving into the water like the should, and not be wasted. Its ironic how looking back at it now, and hearing what you guys have said it these forums, how the simpliest of designs is often the most effective. One of the main reasons I bought the reactor from Florida Driftwood was because where I live it cost $25.00 for a RIO 50 from my LFS. All I did was spend 25 more and I dont have to tinker with anything. NICE PIC by the way, I always love seeing them.

Shoplights are not an option, the underpower lights, and burn out in the long run.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Walpurgis999 -

Your "bad boy" is EXACTLY what I have and referred to in my earlier post. (I linked to the Aquabotanic smaller version as a courtesy to Robert H.) 

I really like mine. I trust you will be satisfied with yours also.

Bob


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## Plant Crazy (Apr 12, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by BobAlston:
> Take a look at this:
> ...


I also have to agree with Bob regarding the mini monster vortex. I purchased this from Robert at Aquabotanic, and have never had any problems with it. There is essentially no leakage of undissolved CO2 bubbles since they continuously churn around with the water in the vortex until they're dissolved.

As for the cleaning, I only remove the sponge insert about once a month, and rinse it under tap water. I've never had to remove the vortex unit from the aquarium to clean it.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> I didnt like the reactor that came with my CO2 system from aquabotanic.com so I tried doing it through a powerhead


Which reactor you refering to ?

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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

Ekim (and everybody else too):

SAFETY WARNING: Chain the CO2 cylinder to the aquarium stand!


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by gsmollin:
> Ekim (and everybody else too):
> ...


Can you elaborate on that ?

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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Rex is the only one who has answered that his CO2 levels better. No one else has stated whether their plant growth was any different or that they noticed any overall growth change since making this retrofit.

Also, in viewing the different reactors, I have some questions.

The DIY's look nice, but I am unclear as to how they actually work and what method is better. It seems that the reactor is located after the filter, pre tank return. 

Is the reactor fed from the bottom with returned H2O? 

Then, is the CO2 tee'd in at the bottom of the reactor and broken up as it rises with the H2O through the bio balls?

Would it be better to locate the H2O return at the top of the reactor with the CO2 and run it down? Seems the CO2 would be pulled down(though wanting to rise) and get pulverized a bit more in the bio balls, more churning.

Would a 2 stage reactor be any more beneficial or efficient in dissolving CO2?

On the Vortex type reactor, is the H2O pulled in through the bottom where the sponge is, into the chamber and then churned through the powerhead into the tank?

Lastly, Vortex and DIY reactors, are they (or the) returns located towards the bottom of the tank near the substrate?

Thanks Folks!


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by liquidgardens:
> Rex is the only one who has answered that his CO2 levels better. No one else has stated whether their plant growth was any different or that they noticed any overall growth change since making this retrofit.
> Thanks Folks!


Sorry, I though it was obvious, since the reactor dissolves all the CO2!

The water should enter from the top of the reactor so the CO2 doesn't escape, the CO2 bubbles will want to rise in the reactor, there for being trapped. In my setups the CO2 also enters from the top. Don't let my plumbing confuse you, I have better results with the reactor on the input side of the filter, most people run them on the output though!


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by liquidgardens:
> Rex is the only one who has answered that his CO2 levels better. No one else has stated whether their plant growth was any different or that they noticed any overall growth change since making this retrofit.


Above reply.
I'm with 100% with Rex and Ekim on this subject.

I tried many ways to get my CO2 dissolved properly and found reactor by far the best out of all.



> quote:
> 
> The DIY's look nice, but I am unclear as to how they actually work and what method is better. It seems that the reactor is located after the filter, pre tank return.


Some people use it on intake hose some use it on outake. Personally I use a powerhead but plan on using canister soon.

Here is Ghori's view on this subject. Taken from his website.

""""Initially I used a different design that would be inline on the filter outflow - only clean water enters the reactor, less muck to deal with, but i noticed a significant reduction in the flow rate. I ended up putting it inline on the filter inflow. As I write this article, I've been running the reactor with no clogging issues yet for 2 months. If it does start to clog up, I'll simply take it off, run some water at high pressure through it to clean it out and pop it back on. If you're worried 
about it - you can use a prefilter on the intake tube. That will catch any larger pieces of debris.""""



> quote:
> 
> On the Vortex type reactor, is the H2O pulled in through the bottom where the sponge is, into the chamber and then churned through the powerhead into the tank?


Nope.

Water is pulled by powerhead and then into rector chamber where CO2 is injected. Sponge purpose is to keep water and CO2 in the chamber for longer time so CO2 gets enough time to get dissolved.

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## Guest (Apr 17, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> The water should enter from the top of the reactor so the CO2 doesn't escape, the CO2 bubbles will want to rise in the reactor, there for being trapped.


This is very general statement Ekim. It also depends on where your Reactor is place, Intake or Outake hose.

Here is a diagram on what I mean.










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## walpurgis999 (Feb 6, 2003)

Dr.Jay: http://www.aquabotanic.com/shop/media/CO2-Reactor500.gif this reactor. I only have the single one and not the duel ones. I dont think its Aquabotanic's fault that it didnt work right, I think it was my own ignorance and intolerance for cleaning something once a week that made me look at other options.

Shoplights are not an option, the underpower lights, and burn out in the long run.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Dr Jay, I don't *think* the right picture setup would work very good, the CO2 would just exit the reactor with the water flow!

Personally I think the water should always enter the top & exit the bottom, regardless if it is on the input or output side!


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

This is all great info so far. I would bet that it has helped several thread lurkers as well.

I like the idea of the reactor pre filter which seems that the dissolving rate would be higher. Only draw back would be the cleaning of the reactor more often than post filter. 

It being stated that the dissolving rate is lower post filter, I wonder if a 2 stage reactor of some type might counter the pre position. Has anyone experimented with this option? I would think there could be a few ways to rig this.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

liquidgarden, I have mine setup on the input of my filter, it has been ruining like that for about 6-8 months and I never cleaned it once, check the picture above, it doesn't look to bad IMO! I do not use a prefillter sponge either!


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## liquidgardens (Apr 8, 2003)

Looks nice ekim. I may just have to try your set up.


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

It works great for me, I would suggest using the gravel vac tube so you can see inside!

If I couldn't see inside, I would have probably taken it apart 10 times now, because everyone seems to say it will get clogged up on the input side! But as you can see it's not true!!

PS make it as long as you can so you don't have to worry about the pump being to strong!


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I have all my reactors on the out flow side of the cannister. I think it really depends on whether your filter is a push pump or a pull pump. But the water (IMHO) should always enter at the top and exit at the bottom. And the CO2 should be fed into the top 1/3 of the reactor.

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## Moe (Feb 1, 2003)

I run mine like ekim, on the intake and never had a problem

Moe


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by ekim:
> Dr Jay, I don't _think_ the right picture setup would work very good, the CO2 would just exit the reactor with the water flow!
> ...


If you place your CO2 reactor on *outflow* and you want the flow from *top to bottom* then the only way to achieve this is to have *loop* on outflow hose. If you don't have loop then flow will go from bottom to the top unless you have your canister above the tank.

Rex,
Do you have pictures of your setup ?

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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I can try and get a picture. But there really is not a loop. I use a elbow connector and the output hose goes from the filter to the elbow on top of the reactor. Then there is another elbow connector at the bottom and the output hose goes from there to the tank. The top fitting is on top of the reactor and the bottom fitting is on the side. I have built several reactors using this design and they have worked perfectly. I guess when the reactor is taken into account you could call it a loop since the water flow is up-down-up again. I will mention that the cannister filter I'm using is a Rena XP series and they have PUSH pumps on them.

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## Guest (Apr 18, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> I use a elbow connector and the output hose goes from the filter to the elbow on top of the reactor. Then there is another elbow connector at the bottom and the output hose goes from there to the tank.


This is what I meant by loop.

Thanks.

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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

This "larger" version you are reffering to must be the Plantguild power reactor... I still sell it, but I guess I took it off my WEB site. The mini Vortex reactor hasn't been a huge seller, but its still available.

I don't know which reactor you got with your system that you didn't like... I presume its probably the Reactor 500? Or are you talking about the membrane diffusor?

My biggest selling reactor is the Reactor 1000, which is something like Tom Barrs reactor. I also now have the Turbo jet reactor which was formerly sold by M3. They all work, slightly different applications

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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## walpurgis999 (Feb 6, 2003)

I do mean the Reactor 500, but like I said Rob, most of the time, what doesnt work for me is golden to someone else. Its not a bad reactor, I just dont care for it--I probably set it up wrong anyone. Its not a big deal, nor do I want you to feel that im trying to slander your products. I have your entire system, minus the tank, and love it. I recommend your setup to everyone I can.

Im an English teacher in school, not in this forum. Hence, I spell, you spell, we all spell bad.


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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> http://members.rogers.com/morrisseylee/r2.JPG


The CO2 cylinder in this picture is a safety hazard, because it is not secured to the aquarium stand, and can fall over. It is possible for a falling cylinder to become damaged, and leak CO2, or cause property or personal damage. This is basic safety for all high presure cylinders. I won't regale you with stories about the fantastic results of high pressure cyinders with broken valves. You can look those up for yourself. Suffice to say, you don't want any chance of that happening to you.

The cylinder can be secured with a small chain, and some screw hooks.


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## STAT 007 (Mar 8, 2003)

I also have the Plant Guild Products reactor that all of y'all have been talking about and I'm starting to think that the Rio 50 is a little underpowered. Perhaps I'm wrong, but when I see the large bubbles churning around and then disappear (as if they got so small you can't seem them--in other words, have dissolved), I get happy. But when I see bubbles constantly churning around, I start to wonder if they're really being smashed up properly. For that reason, I'm thinking about going to a larger powerhead that will definitely smash the bubbles down into the sponge, thus breaking them up adequately. Any thoughts on this? I'd like to find another Rio powerhead with the same diameter outlet as the Rio 50 so I don't have to do any modifications. Anybody know which other Rio powerheads fit this bill? Thanks.

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.


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## corvus (Apr 9, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> The CO2 cylinder in this picture is a safety hazard, because it is not secured to the aquarium stand, and can fall over. It is possible for a falling cylinder to become damaged, and leak CO2, or cause property or personal damage. This is basic safety for all high presure cylinders. I won't regale you with stories about the fantastic results of high pressure cyinders with broken valves. You can look those up for yourself. Suffice to say, you don't want any chance of that happening to you.
> 
> The cylinder can be secured with a small chain, and some screw hooks.


Bungee cords work great too!

main tank,90gal, 440watts vho, 100% flourite, press. Co2, 4 more tanks +3,500 gallons of ponds.


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> when I see bubbles constantly churning around, I start to wonder if they're really being smashed up properly. For that reason, I'm thinking about going to a larger powerhead that will definitely smash the bubbles down into the sponge, thus breaking them up adequately.


Unless youâre seeing CO2 building up in the reactor chamber or bubbles escaping from the bottom of the reactor to the surface, the pump is doing just what itâs supposed to. You donât need to have the bubbles under high pressure, you just need to keep them moving. This is one area where more isnât necessarily better; Iâve found the Rio to be the perfect size for the reactor, and itâs quiet and dependable. I get 100% CO2 diffusion, and Iâve been really happy with it; itâs a snap to clean, besides.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## STAT 007 (Mar 8, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Vicki:
> Unless youâre seeing CO2 building up in the reactor chamber,...the pump is doing just what itâs supposed to.


How do I know that this isn't what I AM in fact seeing? Thanks.

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by STAT 007:
> I also have the Plant Guild Products reactor that all of y'all have been talking about and I'm starting to think that the Rio 50 is a little underpowered. Perhaps I'm wrong, but when I see the large bubbles churning around and then disappear (as if they got so small you can't seem them--in other words, have dissolved), I get happy. But when I see bubbles constantly churning around, I start to wonder if they're really being smashed up properly. For that reason, I'm thinking about going to a larger powerhead that will definitely smash the bubbles down into the sponge, thus breaking them up adequately. Any thoughts on this? I'd like to find another Rio powerhead with the same diameter outlet as the Rio 50 so I don't have to do any modifications. Anybody know which other Rio powerheads fit this bill? Thanks.


If the bubbles smash into the sponge, eventually they will work down below it and collect inside the rim and then some will rise. I am seeing this on my DIY when the scrubbie is too high in the reactor and the bubbles get stuck instead of rolling around. Not as good, I am correcting that this AM.


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## STAT 007 (Mar 8, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by anonapersona:
> If the bubbles smash into the sponge, eventually they will work down below it and collect inside the rim and then some will rise. I am seeing this on my DIY when the scrubbie is too high in the reactor and the bubbles get stuck instead of rolling around. Not as good, I am correcting that this AM.


I've seen this happen too, although I have the sponge as far down in the tube as it can go without going past the little plastic indentations. I think I'll try pulling it down even farther (working it past the indentations some) to try and prevent this.

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Do you guys with problems with the plant guild reactor have the small one or the large one? I have the large one and have never had a problem with the bubbles not fully diffusing.

Bob


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## STAT 007 (Mar 8, 2003)

We're talking about the large one, not the Mini Vortex.

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.


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## anonapersona (Mar 11, 2004)

But mine is a DIY imitation of the Vortex using a Rio 90 instead of a Rio 50. I don't have any little ridge at the bottom so my stuffing falls out sometimes, and the stronger water pump probably has somthing to do with that too, ergo, my cautions about moving up to a stronger pump. 

As of this evening I've switched the blue kitchen scrubbie for a rolled up bit of black pond pump filter pad, it sure looks better! The bubbles are rolling around again and seem to be diffusing better. I'll check the pH in the AM to see if it is noticibly different.

STAT, I don't think that seeing a lot of bubbles is ever a problem. Unless you get to a point of having one giant bubble that fills the whole thing up, as long as there is both water and CO2 in there, moving around, they are mixing. Sometimes mine looks like a tornado in there.

Some of that could be O2, you know. Do you see less bubbles at night than during the day, even though the bubble rate is the same?


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

The mini Vortex power reactor was designed by Plantguild at my request. We wanted something that would work in very small aquariums, like 6 gallons. Thats what it was designed for...something small in size. Their standard power reactor is 3 x 6". The pump attaches on the top forcing a current that pushes the gas through a sponge or wire mesh.

The Turbo jet reactor is 10" in length, pump attaches on the top and is designed to create a double turbo stream that pushes the gas through a pile of ceramic beads giving much surface area. Quite effective. Its made by a no name company in China.

The Reactor 500 is made by Aqua Medic and is a design thats been around for a long time. The pump creates a pressure that drives bubbles down a coil dissolving the bubble by the time it reaches the bottom. It is about 3x6"

The Reactor 1000 from Aqua Medic is an external reactor that connects to a cannister filter or sump, or external pump. You connect the out flow tube of the cannister filter to the reactor. The chamber of the reactor is filled with balls like bio balls and dissolves the gas very effectively. The unit is for large aquariums, although one of my customers has it hooked up to a 30 gallon tank!

The Membrane diffusor from Aqua Medic is the only diffusor I have ever sold. It consists of four membranes. You place it in the path of a strong current which pushes the C02 bubbles through the membrane dissolving it...without the use of a pump. It is small and compact, so its very unobtrusive in the aquarium.

Other diffusors consit of nothing but a glorified airstone, or a "bell". A bell simply catches the bubble holding it til it dissolves. Problem is if you have a fast bubble rate bubbles get pushed out from under the bell float up the the water surface and disapate.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com


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