# A ton of detritus worms in fishless cycling tank



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

I noticed a few on the glass near the gravel last week. Now I appear to have a ton of them because I see dozens of them when I stir the gravel.

I'm guessing there's a lot of decomposing matter in my dirt, so tank could be considered dirty? My tank's cycle is passed the mid-stage, so I have readings of 0 ammonia, very high nitrite constantly (even after a water change, it goes up to 5ppm+), and started seeing nitrate a less than a week ago.

How do I keep in under control while my tank cycles? Tried feeding some to my betta, but she's not interested, lol.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

deitrus worms are a good thing, they eat algae and aerate the substrate. 
They are a pro, not a con, and are a good part of the CUC.


----------



## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

What do they look like?

If they're very small (~1cm) and white they're probably planaria. In which case, harmless. Fish might eat'em. They'll die off and once there's less food for them. If they don't... Hey, extra help with decomposition...

Otherwise, sounds like they may have come from the soil you used. In which case they'll probably die after awhile cause they aren't aquatic. The amount of organics they leave may be an issue, but I'd just keep an eye on things and see how it goes.

Could maybe try vacuuming them out if you're careful not to disturb the soil layer.

Otherwise might have to redo the tank to get rid of them.

EDIT: Haha, ignore me. Apparently "Detritus worm" is a specific name. I just figured "well, lots of worms are detritus worms".


----------



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

@DutchMuch, I don't mind them too much, but don't want them to infest the whole tank.

@Skizhx, haha, yeah. They're these wiggly tiny worm that come out of the substrate and float around some times.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

lake_tuna said:


> @DutchMuch, I don't mind them too much, but don't want them to infest the whole tank.
> 
> @Skizhx, haha, yeah. They're these wiggly tiny worm that come out of the substrate and float around some times.


the more you feed, and the more algae you have. That controls their population.:whip:


----------



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

DutchMuch said:


> the more you feed, and the more algae you have. That controls their population.:whip:


This tank has not seem any food. The only thing I've added is ammonia for the cycling. They must be living off of the soil.


----------



## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

weird..
Yea idk I would just wait it out until the tanks cycled, then start worrying about it. Once you get fish in there if you do they'll peck em off.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

lake_tuna said:


> The only thing I've added is ammonia for the cycling. They must be living off of the soil.


There's no reason to add ammonia to a Natural Planted Tank (NPT) or to encourage nitrifying bacteria. These bacteria compete with plants for ammonia, slowing their growth rate. The plants, assuming they are growing well, will take care of the ammonia. Plus, most soils naturally contain plenty of nitrifying bacteria. One or the other (or both) should take care of removing any ammonia produced by a reasonable fish load.

In this situation, there's little upside to adding ammonia, and plenty of downside. The worms suggest an excess of nutrients, and ammonia is just one more. My book 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium' and my article 'Nitrogen Uptake in Aquatic Plants' (available on my website at http://dianawalstad.com) explains why there is no reason to "cycle" an NPT.

If the plants seem to be doing okay (i.e., not dying), I would just add the fish, measure the ammonia and nitrite. If the levels climb, then do a water change.


----------



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

dwalstad said:


> There's no reason to add ammonia to a Natural Planted Tank (NPT) or to encourage nitrifying bacteria.


@dwalstad, Hi Diana! I already have you book from several years ago! I actually added ammonia once only, to bring it to 4-5ppm at first.

So, I've tried standard NPT before with success (no ammonia, water pump, etc.). This time around, I changed a few things.. I sifted the top soil, added stuff (clay, dolomite, muriate of potash), and added a canister filter from day one. I added ammonia just once on day one because I kept getting a huge reading of ammonia the following days. I did add a lot of soil, too.. 1.5" and 1" substrate to top it off. I'm getting a lot of gasses from the soil. I can see the soil layer lifting up all over through the glass.

It's been probably 5 weeks now, and ammonia is at 0ppm, but nitrite is peaking hard. 80% water change brings it down to .25-.5ppm, but it goes up to 5ppm next day. I'm registering some nitrate. It's been like this for a few weeks. I do have a lot of plants. They are growing at a modest pace.

Any idea why nitrite is spiking for so long? Too much soil? Bad test kit? Today, I've removed all media from the filter and using it just to circulate water. Trying to see what the tank's native filtration capabilities are..


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'm glad that you had success with your first NPT, have my book, and seem to be on top of things, so I don't have to explain everything from scratch.  

Is this a photo of your tank at 5 weeks? Beautifully arranged and planted with a nice variety of plants. But I don't see much plant growth.

A nitrite reading that high is odd. And to have it increase 10 fold overnight! If it were from ammonia oxidation (nitrification), you should be measuring ammonia and nitrates. My guess is that it is nitrate respiration, a very common bacterial process (my book, p. 65). 

Could it be that the soil was very rich or fertilized with nitrates? If you sifted the soil to very fine particles, you might have sped up the decomposition and the associated nitrate respiration. (Bacteria are slowed down by the wood chunks.) The dolomite also would have made it more "bacteria friendly" and sped up decomposition. 

What to do? I would poke the substrate with sharp object (e.g., long thin nail or paper clip opened up) to introduce oxygen. You could do this once a day. If the rocks and driftwood are covering a soil layer, make sure you get under them. (I advise hobbyists when setting up their NPTs to lay added driftwood and/or rocks on the tank glass so that the soil layer isn't "smothered.") 

I have a feeling that time will solve this tank's problem. At the very front of your tank, that 6th little rooted plant from the left has its roots right up against the glass. You can use it to monitor the condition of the substrate. Root growth should start spreading out sideways.

Hopefully, the majority of these lovely plants will start growing. It seems like you've provided them with everything they need and done a good job. Keep us posted.


----------



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

@dwalstad, yes, that was a photo of my current tank at the time of posting. I had sifted the soil to very fine particles, and used Earthgrow from SoCal. It had compose but no manure, I believe.

I do have slow growth right now. Plants were planted incrementally, and background plants have been getting trims to promote them to be bushy. I'm getting the desired effect, but they do seem to be growing quite slow. I am increasing photo period now that algae issues are gone.

I started poking the air pockets (again - was doing it for a few days when I first noticed gas build up). I did read about the nitrate respiration and all the Bacteria chapter articles. 

Interesting that nitrate is converted back into nitrite! I have not read nitrate greater than 5ppm on this tank, so it makes sense the anaerobic condition is driving the nitrite spike. What a vicious cycle. Just tested nitrate now, and I'm getting about 5ppm again. Nitrite is off the chart.

Does the anaerobic process stop at some point in the dense soil layer of 1.5"? What I don't understand now is why there's so much ammonia in the tank without any additions. I will post updates when I get new development, but thinking about redoing the soil and substrate layers in a week or two if things don't settle.


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Do you know what the NPK reading is on the soil that you used? It should say on the bag. Sometimes we can be tricked by soils labeled as 'organic' or 'natural,' but natural products (e.g., manure) can contain a lot of nitrogen. The NPK on the Miracle Gro potting soil I used for my shrimp bowls was 0.010, 0.05, and 0.05. If the N in your soil is way above 0.010, that might explain the excess N problem.

Well, I cringed when I read that you are trimming your plants "to get the desired effect." Now is not the time to be doing _any_ trimming. I would welcome any form of plant growth, especially aerial growth that will bring oxygen down to the root area. Better to have some straggly growth than none at all--or an algae takeover. Don't let your desire for artistic effects sabotage this tank. Along this line, I'd get some floating plants in the tank to help soak up the excess nitrogen.

I've had tanks a lot worse than this come out okay. The excess nitrogen will eventually be leached into the water where it can be easily removed by a water change somewhere down the road. But if you constrain your tank's normal development to aquascaping goals, then this tank may continue to have problems.


----------



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm not sure what the NPK content was, but I should take note next time I go to Home Depot.

So, about a little over a week ago, I decide to take out half of the soil. Tore the tank down, took a whole grocery shopping bag full of soil (bottom layer wasn't even that wet), and replanted everything. I'm happy to say that just a day or two after this, nitrite spike/nitrate respiration stopped, and it become stable every since. Tank is now fully stocked, and the fauna seem happy!


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

That's great news!

BTW, on subject of NPK, I see now that the N concentration of the Miracle Gro Organic Potting Soil I used was 0.10 not 0.010.  [The other numbers (for 0.05 P & 0.05 K concentrations) are correct.]


----------



## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

dwalstad said:


> That's great news!
> 
> BTW, on subject of NPK, I see now that the N concentration of the Miracle Gro Organic Potting Soil I used was 0.10 not 0.010.  [The other numbers (for 0.05 P & 0.05 K concentrations) are correct.]


Stopped by Home Depot to see if the topsoil has NPK content on it, but it doesn't. I used a bag of Earthgro Topsoil, which does have compost in there. Didn't see manure or other ferts listed.

Tank is still doing well.


----------

