# Aquarium vet...new to plants



## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Hello everyone! This is, of course, my first post to this forum and I was semi-referred to this site from a person who is a great friend and who I know from another forum which is dedicated to all sorts of aquariums...however, finding a planted tank 'expert' seems to be awefully hard these days, so here I am! :mrgreen:

Like my title suggests, I am pretty familiar with aquaria in general and keep five tanks at the moment. I have three saltwater tanks...a 90 gallon bow reef tank, a 29 gallon biocube breeding tank (clowns and mandarins), and a 10 gallon hospital tank with one fish in it right now. I have quite a few freshwater tanks, but really two of them are always up and running...a 55 gallon long and a 10 gallon used-to-be fry tank. Until very recently, I was keeping cichlids, malawi mostly, and had the 10 gallon for the fry. Now, I want to take on the planted tank because....well...it is a challenge and I want to see if I can do it. (and because I like the looks of them of course).

So, here is what I have done so far....

I removed all my fish and decor from my tank and cleaned up 50 pounds of flourite. I used some of the sand substrate from my previous set up, and some new gravel which I mixed with the flourite to get this tank:








(I have water in it now, and it is crystal clear already as you can see below)









I am using my old saltwater light set, a Finnex 4 by 54 watt HO T5 system with two white (10,000k I believe) bulbs and two actinic lights. That should be more than enough light for this tank...correct? (It will be planted on the heavy side from what I understand as far as what is heavy, light, and medium)

The plants are on their way from Dr. Foster and Smith's website...will be here this coming tuesday.

The only fish I have for this tank, which are in the 10 gallon used-to-be fry tank, are a rainbow shark (large one, very large), a BN pleco (debating on keeping it or not, have had it since I started out in the hobby so hard to part with it), and two otto cats, which I want to make at least five in this tank.

This is a very well established tank and I have one HOB filter that has been on it since day one running right now to help me support life from the nitrogen cycle point of view. I have also added a new Marineland cannister filter to this tank, mostly for personal reasons because I want to keep this tank as equipment free as possible. I am basically 'cloning' this filter from the established HOB filter I have on the tank right now, and the other one I used to have on this tank, but now have the biofilter media in the cannister filter. I plan to use a spray bar, submersed completely, and a valve to control the flow rate as needed. This cannister filter is rated for a 55 gallon tank, which normally I would go larger, but the plants should help me out with the filtration from my understanding, right?

I am using a substrate heating cable rated at 50 watts under the entire length of the tank. It is holding my temp perfectly at 75 right now and has been for two days. I have a backup heater if need be...ok, I have about 50 of them if need be :mrgreen:

Now, the questions...

Like I said, this is an established tank, and I can deal with the nitrogen cycle and all of that without a problem or a doubt. However, the water parameters of this tank as of today are:

pH 7.6
Kh 70
Gh 180

So, this is a problem as far as I have read and researched out, right? The alkalinity is low, which should help me out in the long run with the slightly high pH, but my water is very hard. I am using city water, without a water softener and this is basically what my tap water is. Now, I have added some peat to the cannister filter (fluval brand peat fiber) and to be honest, I am not seeing much change at all. Is this product some sort of gimmick or do I need to wait a bit longer to see results? (It has been in the filter for two days).

What is the best method for me to affect the Gh of this tank? I do use RO water in my saltwater tanks and so I can mix some with this tank as needed, however, and this is just a fact of life, I do pay for my water and so making RO water gets expensive...so, I try to make only what I absolutely need.

I hope that I do not sound like the anti-christ here, but I have to tell you that I absolutely hate, and try to avoid with a passion, any product which is a chemical or something along those lines to buffer, change, or alter my water chemistry such as messing around with the pH. I am a firm believer that almost any freshwater fish can acclimate to a wide range of pH if given enough time to do so and that pH is maintained constantly. So, I am not looking for the quick fix or the product that keeps me next to my tank three times a day testing the water. I know that may sound harsh, but again, it is a fact of life that I just cannot do that all the time and so I am looking for something which is more permanant than anything else. Make sense?

So, are my hopes and dreams going to be dashed here by my water chemistry? Can plants adjust to a higher pH and hard water? How much affect will the CO2 have on this chemistry and will the plants affect things as well? If so, should I hold off on adding fish to this tank to allow those changes to take place and become more of a constant situation?

Lastly, I would just like to say thank you for taking the time to read this overly long post. I have such huge faith in forums like this one and so I know I can get the help I need here. I hope to meet a lot of great members here and hopefully soon I can be showing off my new planted tank to you all!

MD


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

High KH = resistance to change in pH. The plants should do fine in such an environment (java ferns, anubias, vals, and amazon/melon swords for sure). Feel free to add CO2 but I don't think it will bring the pH lower than 7.0. Again, that's perfectly okay with all freshwater fish.

The key is to maintain a very stable water chemistry. Straight de-chlorinated tap water within a few degree F of the tank's temperature would be good. I'd change 50% of the water once a week. The fish should provide sufficient N and P for the plants. You may need to supplement K, and probably iron and the micronutrients.

I'd add about 3 to 4 fish in the beginning if the tank is fully cycled. Introduce a few more in a few days till full capacity (one 1.5" cardinal per gallon of water in the tank). Buy plant food tablets at the store and bury them (about 1/4 sq inch cube) deep in the substrate near the base of plants. This will provide food to the plants while you build up the fish population.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

It sounds like you're off to a good start.

Did I miss something? How big is this tank?

I'll make some random comments. Actinic lighting is designed to be beneficial to symbiotic organisms in reef systems. It's of little benefit in FW planted tanks. The 10,000K lights should be fine. Many people like to mix 10,000K lights with 6,700K lights in a 1:1 ratio.

Your tapwater should be perfectly fine for growing plants. I have one tank with a GH of 360 and a KH of 150. Most species grow perfectly well in it. I keep another tank at GH 90 and KH 60 by using RO water for the more delicate species. The vast majority of plants will be perfectly happy with your tapwater. I wouldn't bother with the peat. It acts very slowly and probably isn't needed.

I'd recommend reading Rex Grigg's site at www.rexgrigg.com for an overview of the basics.

If you make one single improvement to your tank, I'd recommend CO2 supplementation. The difference is amazing. You'll also need to think about addressing the macro & micro nutrient needs of the plants.


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## yoink (Aug 31, 2005)

Your tap water is perfect for most any plant and fish. I currently mix half RO half tap water to get a kh and gh of roughly twice yours. The only thing you will need to add is fertilizer(nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and a micro mix of some sort, I use flourish) for the plants and the dechloraminator of your choice. Rex's guide has a great wealth of information, read it twice.

Ditto on the blue lights. Get yourself some more 10000k or a couple 6700k. I would only run all 4 bulbs if you want to go with pressurized co2, lots of ferts, lots of pruning. You can grow a greater variety of plants, but it requires a good amount maintenance too. You could run two bulbs and still grow a decent variety of plants with lower maintenance and algae issues.

I would recommend you jam it as full with fast growing plants as you can at the beginning. This should keep any ammonia away while the tank settles in. Good luck, I'm sure you will do fine judging by your experience with aquariums.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Good luck with your new tank! What other fish do you plan to keep in this tank?


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> High KH = resistance to change in pH


I understand this...however, my Kh is sort of low at 70, correct? My worry is that the pH is not going to be stable. I have three days until the plants arrive and I am thinking about hooking up the CO2 system just to see what the changes, if any, would be. Is this a good idea or just a waste of time?



> Did I miss something? How big is this tank?
> 
> I'll make some random comments. Actinic lighting is designed to be beneficial to symbiotic organisms in reef systems. It's of little benefit in FW planted tanks. The 10,000K lights should be fine. Many people like to mix 10,000K lights with 6,700K lights in a 1:1 ratio.


This tank is a 55 gallon long, I may not have been very clear about that since I was in a hurry when posting...wanted to get to sleep.

As far as the actinic lighting, I obviously have the option to use it or not, and I can also change those bulbs with ease. My thinking was to use at least one actinic bulb over this tank just becasue I feel that a lot of fish look better under that sort of lighting. I know that cardinal tetras are spectacular under it from what I have seen in an LFS I visit semi-often. In reality, the tank looks much much clearer and crisp under all four bulbs...but if I can eek out some better results with other bulbs, then I have no problem changing one or even both of the actinic bulbs.

My understanding is that the light from an actinic bulb is no different from white light, but rather just another spectrum. Is this something you would agree with? I am fully aware of the benifits of actinic lighting in a saltwater tank...like I said, this is the same light that was over my salty tank when it was a FOWLR tank. Now I am into the reef side of things and have much more lighting over that tank. I am using this light system on this eventual planted tank simply because I have it and I dont have to spend more money. Depending on what your recomendations are, I will adapt this light system to optimize its affects.



> If you make one single improvement to your tank, I'd recommend CO2 supplementation. The difference is amazing. You'll also need to think about addressing the macro & micro nutrient needs of the plants.


I do have plans to use CO2 in this tank. I picked up two cheap sugar and yeast systems, which are both rated for a 20 gallon tank to buy some time until I can upgrade to a better system as I learn more and can better judge what is best for my situation.

As far as supplimentation, I have a large bottle of Seachem Flourish and a small one of Flourish Excel. I realize that this is probrably not the best or only supplimentation I need, but so far, it has been the only suggested product I have gotten thus far from a forum. I am also using flourite....which I have heard nothing good about it yet, however it has not been the messy problem that I was told to expect.



> The only thing you will need to add is fertilizer(nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and a micro mix of some sort, I use flourish)


Whew! Maybe I am on the right track then....like I said, that is what I bought.



> I would recommend you jam it as full with fast growing plants as you can at the beginning.


Here is my plant list...and what will be coming to my house on Tuesday:
_Micro Sword 5 
Dwarf Hairgrass x 5 
Anacharis x 8
Myrio - Red x 4 
Rotala Indica x 10 
Rotala Magenta x 3 
Water Sprite x 3 _

My plan is to use the low, mid, and tall plants in a semi-unorthodox way in that instead of planting the short ones in the front of the tank and tall ones in the back, I am going to plant the shorter plants near the middle of the tank (closest to the black sand 'pathway') and the taller plants closest to the sides of the tank....if that makes sense. I have no problem maintaining this tank...I spend a lot of time, too much time according to the wife, playing with and maintaining my other tanks, so this one is going to only add to that a little bit. I typically do weekly water changes in the 25% range and so I will be sure to watch the water parameters on this new tank and do what needs to be done.



> Good luck with your new tank! What other fish do you plan to keep in this tank?


My plan is to go with nearly all small fish in this tank...rummy nose, neon or cardinals, otocinclus cats, yo yo loaches, and hopefully...if I can find some, a pair of dwarf cichilds (apisto) or if all else fails, a pair of german blue rams. That is really something I cannot plan too much on right now since the LFS in my area are sort of a hit and miss deal as far as what is available and what I can order. I have yet to order fish from an online store, but this may be a good time to check that out and see how reliable that option is. My brother once order a lot of fish from a really reputable online store (Dr. Fosters and Smith) and everything was good until the Fedex guy didn't follow the directions plastered all over the box telling him not to leave it on a doorstep in December. Obviously it gets pretty cold here in Wisconsin and so that is why I have been worried about ordering live fish. It is not the store I am worried about, it is the under paid Fedex or UPS guy that could be my problem.

Thank you all for your comments and advice! I can already tell that my success with this tank is going to hinge heavily on this forum!


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

Nice start.

[hijack] How many Mandarins are you able to sustain in a 29?[/hijack]


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> How many Mandarins are you able to sustain in a 29?


I keep two mandarins...one male and one female, in my 29 gallon tank. I have a lot of live rock in there, almost 40 pounds, and the ones I have are tank bred and very open to eating prepared foods. In fact, they love blood worms. In this tank I also have quite a few macro algaes and so I am able to sustain a relatively large copepod population. I know what you are thinking, but I have kept these two mandarins for almost 6 months with no issues in one tank or another, probably about 2 months now in my 29 biocube. I have two green spotted mandarins in my 90 gallon tank, with the same type of situation but the macroalgae (cheato only) are kept in my over flow system and I shake them out once in a while to place pods into the tank as I was told worked well for a very good friend of mine on another forum. I think the mandarin 'hype' is a little bit outdated these days and many people I know are keeping them with great success more frequently these days.

Thanks for the comments on the planted tank though. I have to say that I am really enjoying this tank so far and it is basically empty! I cannot wait for the plants to come and I am debating hard about taking Tuesday off of work just so I can be here to get the delivery and start working on placing them in the tank!


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## neonfish3 (Feb 12, 2004)

Welcome to the forum Mad Dog. 
You came to the right place to get a planted tank started right! 
Where in S.E. WI are you? 
I have simular water parameters as you, living in Milwaukee. All the plants you chose will grow just fine in your water. The Florish is a very good product but really only supplys trace elements. The Flourish Excel is a carbon supplement and is also very good. I use both of these products. But with that much light and with CO2 you will need to add Macro fertilizers (N,P,K). I use potassium nitrate(N),mono potassium phosphate(P) and potassium sulphate(K) all bought from one of the sponsers here, Greg Watson. http://www.gregwatson.com/ They are all very cheap and last a long time. 
Your tank looks good, and good luck with it!


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

KH of 70 as in ppm or 4KH using the German scale? That should be fine with CO2 injection.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

> Where in S.E. WI are you?
> I have simular water parameters as you, living in Milwaukee


Glad to see a fellow cheese-head in the hobby! We seem to be few and far between from my observations. I am living up here in picturesque Port Washington and probably using the same Lake Michigan water as you. I am very relieved to see that my water is going to work out here...I have read a ton of conflicting info on what exactly is needed and what is best for plants and the 'normal' planted tank type fish....which of course, is par for this hobby.



> KH of 70 as in ppm or 4KH using the German scale? That should be fine with CO2 injection.


I am sure it is ppm...using the Hagen/Nutrafin master test kit that I typically use on my salty tanks but they do have the freshwater color charts with them. Typically, I don't pay all that much attention to Kh, Gh, or pH other than to keep them all as stable as possible and acclimate my fish to my water and my tanks....of course, saltwater is a bit different but my water, coupled with Instant Ocean salt mix, is nearly perfect for that application.

That said, I guess my main concern is if I will have the ability to keep things stable in this planted tank. I have read that plants do not use, or use CO2 differently at night time, and so based upon my other experience, that could cause issues with fish and osmotic shock if the effects of CO2 on my tank change to much or too frequently. I know that I may be stressing out about this a bit too much, however I have also hard a lot of horror stories about people losing an entire tank full of neon tetras or even rummy nose tetras from time to time with no explaination...which is obviously what I want to avoid.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Not to worry. Many of us turn CO2 off at night and back on in the morning. The pH swing associated with this is associated with a dissolved gas - not a dissolved solid and so it doesn't really affect the osmotic load of the water. Only a minute fraction of the dissolved CO2 converts to carbonic acid, creating an ionic solute.

Fish seem to tollerate this CO2/pH swing without any observable stress. My CO2 comes on with the lights and drops the pH by 0.8 units over less than an hour. They'll spawn right through it, hardly noticing.

Now, when it comes to KH/GH/osmotic load, I absolutely agree with you - consistency is the key to keeping the system happy. Fortunately the majority of FW fish and almost all plants are capable of adapting to a wide range in conditions, if the change is made slowly. Overall, it's more forgiving than a SW setup in many respects.

I second what neonfish said regarding N,P, & K. You'll fail miserably with that much light and CO2 without macro nutrient supplementation. Actually adding NO3 & PO4 to a tank really bothers most people new to keeping plants but they won't like you if you don't.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Unless you're maxing out on light and CO2, the pH should not stress out the fish. If you're paranoid, then reduce the ppm of CO2 in the tank and also reduce the intensity and photo period. My light is on about 6 hours per day.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Well that sounds good then. I am glad to find out that this may not be as hard or as complicated as it was at first glance. Generally, I am only against using man made or unnatural chemicals to my tanks (e.g. meds, pH buffers) and so that is why I really want to try doing this without having to mess with those. My goal has always been to refrain from becoming a slave to one product or another, but of course, supplements are different and I obviously use them in my saltwater tanks all the time.

My PO4 levels in my tap water alone, believe it or not, have caused me a ton of trouble in my saltwater tanks initially and so that was my main basis for going to RO/DI water. I have had no issues with algae in my freshwater tanks though, but only because my stocking was generally based upon herbivores and if algae sprung up, I would simply feed less and poof, the fish would clean up for me. 

As far as products go, do you have any recommendations on which are better? Brand names would be good to know, but otherwise I am wondering if, for example, liquid supplements are better than dry varieties or the type that I would just push into the substrate. Also, connecting the dots a little bit here, I would assume that carbon filtration would take some of those supplements out of the water or is this not an issue? In the past, I have not used carbon...well, I would use it but I never replace it. Obviously right now, with the brand new filter, I also have fresh carbon in there, so I am wondering if I should just take it out or not worry about it at all like I have in the past?

Thanks again for all of the great help! I am starting to feel like a kid at Christmas all over again!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

With carbon, it's maybe a good idea to run it right after setup for a few days, but then remove it once the tank is planted. It does tend to bind nutrients needed by the plants.

As far as additives, I'd recommend this:

For KH and GH, mix RO and tapwater as desired.
For nitrogen, use dry bulk KNO3.
For phosporus, use dry bulk KH2PO4.
For traces, use either a dry bulk trace mix, Seachem's Flourish, or Tropica's TMG, recently re-labeled as Plant Nutrition Liquid.

You can get all the dry bulk ferts at Greg Watson's site. It's VERY inexpensive compared to comercial mixes. Check out our "Sponsors" page. For recommended doses, concentrations, fert schedules, check out the "Science of Fertilizing" section.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

I will take out the carbon for sure then...to be honest, I never really felt that it was as worth as much as a lot of people advertise. I never really used it like I said and so I am glad that I asked about it since otherwise I would probably would never have thought about it.

When you say that NO3 is good in this application, how does that affect the amount of fish you can stock in a tank? Thinking about it logically, it would seem to me that overstocking could almost be a good thing...however I have read some other posts on this forum, many of them speaking about the inch per gallon rule or an equivallent, and so I am assuming that this is not going to be true about the overstocking or at least highly stocking a planted tank.

In the past, I have overstocked intentionally with cichlids because of the benifits as far as aggression is concerned, but of course, I used additional filtration to balance that out. In this tank...which has been empty minus one fish for an entire week, I am certain that if I was to stock it right now, or prior to the plants being in, I would have a mini-cycle, if not a near complete cycle because of that. I also took out nearly 2/3 of the substrate that was established in this tank as well so I am hanging on to little if any benificial bacteria right now in the form of old filter media. I have dosed a very small amount of pure ammonia this week, but nothing at levels which would benifit me all that much in the form of fishless cycling.

The reason I bring this up is because I am working on the assumption that in this about to be heavily planted tank, I should not have very many problems as far as a cycle goes because the plants, from what I have read, will feed off of the ammonia and nitrites and help me out. Is this a proper assumption or am I in for a rude awakening?

My plan for fish in this tank has changed a little bit...because I want to order them from Drs. Foster and Smith's website. My 'featured fish' will be four Denison Barbs (which are on back order, so I have time to make adjustments before adding these relatively expensive fish to my tank). Because of the minimum order amounts with most of these online stores, I am pretty much stuck ordering more fish than one may suggest as an appropriate stocking 'speed'. My situation is such, and I know that neon fish is probably in the same situation, that if I want a particular fish, even very common fish like neons or rummy nose tetras, I am at the mercy of the LFS stocking or have to go to some very expensive stores to buy them in the numbers that I am looking for. To add to that, buying a semi-rare fish like the denison barbs would cost me, and this is the multiple fish discount, over 120 dollars for three of them. On Drs. F&S, I can four of them for 100 dollars or 24 dollars a peice. If you havent see them, check them out here. They look amazing in a tank, especially planted tanks from the one I have seen them in, but they are still a 'new' fish to the hobby and just a couple months ago, these fish were over 70 dollars a peice. Anyways, (sorry for rambling), in order to keep things economical and stock with the exact fish that I want, I almost have to order them all in two batches. I am just looking for opinions, info, or ideas on if this is going to work out for me. The only other option I really have is to start setting up and cloning 10 gallon quarantine tanks, which may be worth paying 120 dollars for three fish IMHO.

I will look into your sponsor's website for those chemicals. The experience from members here has been positive for the vast majority of the time? I am sure that this site would not keep them as a sponsor if things were not good with them, but it never hurts to ask!

Thanks again,
MD


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If it's heavily planted then no cycle is necessary - the plants will soak up all the ammonia. A small caution about this though... The plants only soak up NH3 when they're actively growing, which assumes they're in good condition, that you have an adequate plant mass, and that all of their other needs are being met. If that is the case then a full traditional cycle won't be needed.

People seem to get into algae troubles when the tank gets too heavily stocked. Fish waste is high in NH3, which mostly converts to NH4+ in low pH conditions. NH4+ seems to cause algae blooms.

Denison barbs are fabulous, but I'd wait until the tank is stable before adding them.

Greg Watson is a great source for bulk dry chemicals. I'm not aware of a single order problem from his site.


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## erijnal (Apr 5, 2006)

Try joining the Yahoo! group named Anubiasdesign. He gets in a lot of fish and as far as I know, there is no minimum order. Check his stocklist by going to Files, and open the Excel document in there. Not sure if he has denison barbs right now, but it's worth checking out.

Also, at a certain point (about 4-6 months in) it won't be necessary to dose nitrates or phosphates anymore if you have a decent bioload, unless you have plants that are extremely nitrate/phosphate hungry. You'll still have to dose potassium though.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks for the tip erijnal! I will definetly check that out.

Well....today was the big big day! Amazingly enough, I went to work and my boss decided to quit at noon! So, I got home in time to almost catch the FedEx guy...but my wife was home and so all my plants and fish arrived alive and doing very well. I took the time to acclimate all the fish using the same methods I would use for fish and corals in my salty tank so that should get me started off on the right foot. I also found an LFS in my area which had 5 rummy nose tetras and I brought them home and they are now in the tank and doing great too! So, now the pictography of this tank starting with "planted day one"!









The tank as a whole^^^









The left side^^^









The middle of the tank^^^









The right side of the tank^^^


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Now, a couple of the plants...by the way, sorry that things are not as clear as normal. I had a lot of leaves and detrius float into the water column and I am using a HOB filter with some fitler floss to get that out of the tank ASAP. I tried netting it out and felt that I was just creating more so I went to the fitler idea.









Rotala Magenta (I think)^^^









Water Sprite^^^^ (If I am wrong on any of these, please correct me!)









MIcro Sword ^^^









Dwarf Grass^^^


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Found some java moss at the LFS with the rummy nose tetras and this one was given to me for free because it was out of the water quite a bit...meaning that it was on a rock which was close to the surface (cant remember the term the guy used for that) I need to get some clear string or fishing line to get rid of that highly visible green stuff though. You can also see my B. Rainbow (one of two males), a couple of the yo yo loaches (I have five now), and some neons and rummy nose tetras.

Now, the fish:








Neons under blue actinic lighting...they are like lightning bugs when they turn they flash really nicely!









Those rummy nose tetras (five of them)^^^^^









Of course, otocinclus catfish, I now have 6^^^


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

My pair of Half Black Angels...they are sticking together like glue right now and are doing well thus far!









Close up of one of two male Boesemani Rainbows^^^ The color has since gotten better and hopefully that continues

And I think that is it for the good pictures I have taken so far.

So, at this point, I did not hook up the CO2 yet, but I did dose some Flourish and Flourish Excel. I am ordering the dry nutrients from your sponser as soon as I can pry the credit card back from my wife, LOL! I am going to be full of CO2 questions here pretty soon so if any of you can give me some tips on how to get that set up and working in a manner which would be the least stressful on the fish, I would appreciate it. I think I posted a picture before showing the sugar and yeast system I want to use, and in fact, I have two of them...they are 'rated' for a 20 gallon tank and this is 55 gallons so that is why I got two.

Again, thanks for all the help thus far! I am certain that my questions are just starting to form so be ready for me! LOL


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Most economical method is to purchase a CO2 regulator and empty 5 lb Al tank from an online beer supplier ($40 valve, $50 tank). Add a $15 FABCO AIR NV-55 needle valve and about $10 of misc plumbing.

I inject the CO2 directly into the intake tube of my Hagen Aquaclear 300.

http://www.fabco-air.com/distributors.html


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

is that a zebra otocinclus catfish??? How much did you pay for it?


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

You are off to a terrific start, Mad Dog! I have a little suggestion for you. A way that you can maximaize your CO2 production is to swap out the bottles that come with the Hagen system for larger plastic bottles of your choosing. On my 29 I am using 2 x 1 gal apple cider jugs. If you can get your hands on some wine-making yeast, try that in your brew. Check out the sticky that JohnN has written in the DIY forum. You will find it quite helpful. 

Whatever you do, keep up with that Flourish Excel! At least until you go pressurized!


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Nice start!  

I'm not sure exactly what those two grassy plants in the foreground are in the top picture... but normally you'd want to separate out the clump and plant small parts of the plant to cover a larger area. Spreads faster that way.

Of course that's assuming that it's a type of plant that spreads with runners...


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Nice start. The most critical time for a new setup is the first 2-3 weeks. The plants will either recover from the stress of the new setup and start growing or they'll die and turn into tons of mush. You want to avoid the later since the mess will be frustrating and contribute to algae issues.

The sooner you can get the CO2 going, the better. It will help get the plants established and will help to minimize early algae issues. Once it grows in a bit you'll be amazed at how good it looks and how much more natural the fish act among the plants. Enjoy!


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Thank you all for the great input! I was actually pretty nervous, believe it or not, about posting those pictures. I wasn't sure if my 'vision' for this tank was going to be feesable even! From your responses, it sounds like I am at least on the right track for now as far as looks and placement goes.

So...CO2...so many questions, so little memory once I get in front of my computer!

First, I realize that this tank just went from "zero to hero" in less than one day, meaning I know that I bit off a lot with this many plants compared to my experience level. Hopefully I have most of my bases covered right now though...but I do have questions.

So, I am a Project Manager at a Landscape company and right now is the big 'trade show season'. The one we are working on right now is going to feature an outdoor kitchen, complete with a stove/grill, refrigerator, and some high tech beer tap machine. The point being that even though we rented the stove/grill, fridge, and tapper, we had to pay for the working parts of the tapper in order to make it look right for the show. Included in that was a pressurized CO2 tank, a regulator, and of course, the CO2 in that tank.

I have the opportunity to buy this from my boss, for cost basically, and while I am not sure what the regulator controls or if it would be applicable to my aquarium, I wonder if this is a good thing for me to purchase, or if I should skip all of that and buy exactly what I need from an LFS or online store? Also, I am pretty sure that this tank is a 10 or 15 pound variety (ironically, the directions were in every language but english...otherwise we lost those...and the writting on the tank is in chineese or something similar) and I am wondering if this is a good size, and if so, how long would that typically last me if I used it on my 55 gallon tank with the amount of plants I have (hopefully you can get a good idea of types and numbers from my pictures)?

Also, like I said, I have two other CO2 kits which work on the sugar and yeast idea...and I am wondering if I should hook one up and then wait a couple of days to allow the fish and/or plants to adjust before going ahead with the second one....or should I just go for broke and put them both on at the same time? Also, I am wondering if anyone else has a similar device as this one (now that I realize that I didnt post this picture, sorry):









If so, what would be the major difference between this set up and a pressurized CO2 system? How long can I reasonably expect one or both of these kits to last me? How would I know that the CO2 potential is exhausted and it is time to add new sugar and yeast? On top of that, how would I know if my tank is getting enough/too much CO2 from one of these kits? (It says it has a bubble counter, but I am not sure how that works unless I am the one who counts the bubbles) Also, I am not sure if I would even have the ability to slow down the rate of CO2 or not...so if anyone has used these, could you please clarify that for me?

I am also using Flourish and Flourish Excel...my understanding was that the Flourish Excel was a replacement for CO2 and not really something that is more of a suppliment to the CO2. I realize that a lot of products claim to do more than what it can truly do...but I have heard so many people talk positively about this product that I guess I just assumed it is everything it says it is.

As for seperating the plants, I did do some of that....mostly to the dwarf grasses though and only because I hear they will spread really quickly and so smaller would be better. The micro swords went in 'as is' though and I never thought to seperate them. In fact, I think there is a lot of grass growing with the swords and I would like to prune them out to thin the plant down to what it really is...but I am not sure if I can, could, or should do that.

After work today, I checked everything in this tank out very well and none of the fish died, or look stressed/sick. The plants also look very healthy (judging from my landscape background with non-aquatic plants) and are now standing up much straighter than before. When they arrrived, they were also very bright and fully green for the most part (some are a bit red and they also had good color. So, while I realize that this is wwwwaaaayyy too early to be truly confident that these plants and fish are going to make it with little problems, I thought that it was still a good sign to see everything looking good and healthy (as far as I can tell with the plants anyways)

I will leave it at that then and then move forward after getting some responses before I formulate more questions. Thank you for all of your help again!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If there is any way you can afford it I'd strongly recommend moving forward with the pressurized CO2 stuff. Almost everyone who intends to stay in the hobby longer than a few months eventually makes the change. The sugar/yeast thing is just too time-intensive and messy.

A beer tap CO2 system is perfectly fine. Basically what you need is a CO2 tank (a 5lb cylinder lasts 6 months on my 46g), a regulator (preferably with both a high-side and low-side pressure gauge), a needle valve for fine CO2 adjustments (try e-bay), and maybe a bubble counter (to see how fast the stuff is going in). Adjust the regulator down to a working psi of 5-10 and use the needle valve to make fine adjustments. You can add a solenoid too if you'd like to have the ability to turn it on and off with a timer.

How you get the CO2 into the tank is up to you. Many people feed it into the intake of their cansiter filter, others use a DIY in-line reactor, and some use in-tank diffusers. They all seem to work pretty well, but IMO the reactor is the most efficient and straightforward. About 1-2 bubbles per second in the bubble counter is about right for a tank in the 50g range.

As for when - I'd start the CO2 as soon as possible. The difference it makes is enormous.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

guaiac_boy said:


> If there is any way you can afford it I'd strongly recommend moving forward with the pressurized CO2 stuff. Almost everyone who intends to stay in the hobby longer than a few months eventually makes the change. The sugar/yeast thing is just too time-intensive and messy.
> .


This is excellent advice. Right now, I am doing DIY CO2 on a 29 gal. I LOATHE it!! It is so difficult to maintain adequate and consistant levels of CO2, especially when the temp of our house is only 67 degrees. I use two x 1 gal containers. which are capable of lasting much longer than the Hagen nutrafin containers. I switch them out every week, just to keep production up in my cold house.(Remember, output of CO2 depends on the metabolic rate of the yeast.) The result has been that I am constantly battling algae. Though there are other factors, I am sure, that contribute to this, most people here would tell me that my algae woes are likely due to inadequate CO2.

As for where you can buy some of the stuff that you need, send JohnN a PM. He is selling all kinds of goodies to help you with your CO2 needs. He's got CO2-proof tubing, brass check valves, needle valves and sweetwater fine-pore airstones that you can use to diffuse the CO2. He ships fast, his prices are very low and he's a very nice guy who is a mod here. I have purchased from him and recommend him highly.  If he doesn't have what you want, check out Rex Grigg at http://www.rexgrigg.com/ . He sells CO2 supplies for a reasonable price and his site tells you how to assemble a regulator from parts. I recommend all beginners read this site. It's full of great information. He even has directions for building a CO2 reactor, if you choose this method.

Best of luck with everything! I'm going pressurized within the next couple of weeks and I can't wait! If you can't just yet, keep up the Excel and try wine-making yeast to help your brews last longer.


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks again for the replies!

I am going to take your advice and go with a pressurized CO2 system. From what I understand, I still can survive for a couple of days and so I am picking up the equipment I need this weekend. I have a couple more questions though and I posted them in the aquarium equipment section of the forum. If you could be kind enough, or have time, can you check this post out and give me some feedback? I think I am on the right track based upon your replies, but I have some 'option related' questions which I am not sure about right now. Here is the link to that post:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-equipment/37997-co2-reactors.html#post283362

Thanks again!


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## Mad Dog (Mar 3, 2007)

Ok, time for an update.....

Everything is going great so far! Short of a couple lost fish, for apparently no reason at first glance, the plants and other fish are really starting to take off and become established. I believe I may have an issue with my B. Rainbows (both male) and aggression. I see them 'fighting' once in a while and they both have what looks like a wound or fungus on their 'lips'. They are in quaranting as of tonight and am treating with small amounts of Melafix to help healing and for fungal issues, if that is the case. Right now I feel it is too early to tell if I need a more powerful med.

Anyways, I took all of your advice and got myself a pressurized CO2 system...which I talk about in this thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...her-set-of-questions-on-guess.html#post285629

The system is working well and once I get better educated (hence the reason behind that other thread), I should be able to maintain that CO2 to my best advantage.

Finally, I have made a little video of my tank...although it is not my best camera work, which even if it was, would not be great at all. Keep in mind that I just trimmed some plants and rearranged a little bit so the water is not completely clear and has some plant material still floating around (which is out now...for the most part). You can actually hear some of my fish 'talking' if you listen closely! 

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l.../?action=view&current=PlantedTank03-15-07.flv


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