# Is a plant specific substrate really needed?



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Since starting out in this hobby, all of my high tech tanks have had some sort of plant specific substrate, Eco Complete, Flourite, Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil, Florabase, and most recently Soilmaster. Soon I will be removing the Eco Complete/Tahitian Moon Sand mixed substrate from my 75g and replacing it with 150-200lbs of 3M's T-grade Black Sand.

Do you think there will be any noticeable change in plant growth?

Will it be a change for the better or worse?

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and I plan on taking pics before I make the change so I can document the changes in the plants


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## JaySilverman (Jun 19, 2005)

If any change does occur I speculate it will be for the worse. Seeing as the substrate doesn't have as much nutrients as plant specific substrate.


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## Faruk Gençöz (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't have any experience with plant specific commercial substrates. I used many substrates that I picked up from the natural fields; clay, turf, crashed volcanic and quartz particles. Some were better than the others only in the short run (a couple of months). All of them are more or less the same in the long run (in a one year period) as long as the nutrients are provided in to the water column.

You can have a difference (in the negative direction) in the first few months but it depends on how much old your substrate was. If it were older than a year you may not face any difference in plant growth. 

I am glad that we have a thread like this.


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## yildirim (Nov 25, 2004)

I'm not using any specific substrate and never did. I also do not use any additive layer beneath the substrate other than some fertilizer sticks only beneath the heavy root feeders like echi.s. Currently I use 1-2 mm sand and have a great growth. Most of the plants take their nutrients trough the water column and only if it is not enough some of them will need taking nutrients trough the roots. So main idea must always be to provide good water quality for the plants. For me substrate is only for viewing pleasure.

YILDIRIM


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## RTR (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm w/fgencoz. Once mature, just about any substrate seems to work fine. Some may be a bit easier to maintain long-term, others a bit less easy. The big difference for me is in the way the immature (less than 3-6 months) setup behaves - or better, the way the plants behave in the "immature" substrate.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't think they are really needed, but do help give the plants a extra boost in the beginning. As long as you are fertilizing properly through the water column and giving your root feeders root tabs, then a specialized substrate is not needed in my opinion.


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

Well I have kept forest soil substrate (4-5 cm soil with gravel on top) supported tanks with high MH light and no water column fertilization, no CO2 (some with CO2 also and very small amounts of ferts on the column) for the last 20 years and I had some very impressive tanks that lasted surely more than 1 year, 3 years I would say is the maximum that a tank can be supported with substrate fertilization only. I have grown lots of different plants on this tanks some that are considered difficult as well. I am pretty sure substrate makes a big difference in specific plants growth and in general as well and acts as a great buffering mechanisms for this days you just don't want to bother water column fertilizing.


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## Faruk Gençöz (Nov 4, 2005)

So, there seems to be three points here:

1. Relying upon water column fertilization makes the substrate characteristics less important in the long run.

2. Relying upon substrate fertilization may increase the importance of the substrate characteristics.

3. Relying upon both ways makes the substrate characteristics least important.

MatPat, what is your plan of fertilization? Water column, substrate, both or neither type of fertilization? Can we see the current pics and specs of your tank?

I think we also need some ideas that defend the effective commercial products.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Here are the tank specs:

75g

Lighting - 110w of 9325 PC fluorescents, 96w of 8800K T-8 fluorescents

Substrate - 80lbs of Eco Complete and 80 lbs of Tahitian Moon Sand

Plants - R. macrandra, L. aromatica, Blyxa aubertii, A. barteri v. nana, Pogostemon helferi (Downoi), Lysimacchia nummularia, C. wendtii, C. lutea, and an unidentified Crypt species. A few others in there for now but they will proably be removed whent he substrate is changed out.

I currently fertilize the water column daily with KNO3, KH2PO4 and CSM+B and will continue after the substrate is removed and replaced with black sand. Weekly to every other week water changes will be continued. I do not plan on changing anything I am currently doing to the tank, lighting, fertilization, etc other than the substrate. Filters will be moved to other tanks to keep the bacteria alive. Hopefully I can make the changes in a couple of hours to avoid stressing the plants. 

I will not be adding anything to the substrate other than peat and mulm. We are still waiting for the sand to be delivered (2000 lbs of it) so I'm not sure when I will actually make the change. 

The goal is to see if there is any change in plant growth by substituting inert sand for the Eco Complete. I personally don't think I will see a change in growth but I could be wrong. I'm cheap and hate to spend $30 for a 20lbs bag of Eco when I can spend $~25 for 50lbs of sand  I prefer the look of the sand over the Eco too.

I will be paying more for the sand since it is black (I like a black substrate) but if my hypothesis is correct, folks will be able to pay $10 for 50lbs of Silica Sand. They could then spend their money on things like lighting and CO2 rather than on substrate, and get the same results. That would be a good thing!

The only draw back is that water column fertilization is a requirement and you will not have a substrate to fall back on. 

I'll try to add a pic of the tank later this evening.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> The only draw back is that water column fertilization is a requirement and you will not have a substrate to fall back on.


I think that pretty much sums it up there. I think people do fall back on substrates. If you fertilize the water column properly, everything should be fine.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

I have black T-grade Colorquartz in my 75G. Blyxa grows very well in it producing many roots. I haven't really tried to grow anything anything else with a root structure though. I have been using plant weights mostly but will try growing some stems directly in the substrate soon. 

The substrate is about 8 months old and well aged.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> I have black T-grade Colorquartz in my 75G. Blyxa grows very well in it producing many roots. I haven't really tried to grow anything anything else with a root structure though. I have been using plant weights mostly but will try growing some stems directly in the substrate soon.
> 
> The substrate is about 8 months old and well aged.


I take it you like the T-grade then?

I am looking forward to using it in my tank. I've never had much luck with root production on very many of my stem plants. The slower growing stems like Lysimacchia do grow decent roots and that will be one plant I use in this setup. Most of the other stmes just gro too fast.


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## Blazerfrs (Feb 3, 2006)

That T-grade stuff is _pretty_ I like the looks of it alot.

More on-topic, I use course grit sand-blasting sand as a substrate with very good results, even with my inexperience. It seems stem plants do very well in this arrangement, but I feel my crypts could use a more nutrative substrate. When I add new root tabs they really seem to enjoy it 

I dose the water column and add root tabs occasionally.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

MatPat said:


> I take it you like the T-grade then?
> 
> I am looking forward to using it in my tank. I've never had much luck with root production on very many of my stem plants. The slower growing stems like Lysimacchia do grow decent roots and that will be one plant I use in this setup. Most of the other stmes just gro too fast.


Ah you know... it seems OK. I don't know if it really has any CEC ability. So far so good. I want to try some ADA Amazonia eventually.


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> Ah you know... it seems OK. I don't know if it really has any CEC ability. So far so good. I want to try some ADA Amazonia eventually.


 It has no CEC ability, ColorQuartz is a ceramic coated aggregate, it is inert. Makes a nice substrate though. I use it as a cap material.


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## Overfloater (Apr 2, 2004)

SCMurphy said:


> It has no CEC ability, ColorQuartz is a ceramic coated aggregate, it is inert. Makes a nice substrate though. I use it as a cap material.


That's what I thought. You'd think it does though if you saw the way my blyxa roots.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Finally, 5 months after the initial start of this thread I was able to get the Eco Complete and Tahitian Moon Sand substrate out of the tank and get the 3M Color Quartz in. Here is a pic:










I completely changed the tank from the previous pics and decided to leave the B. japonica 'japonica' out of this scape. It didn't seem to fit for some reason but I may add it in just for comparison's sake. I still need to do some work but wanted to post an initial setup pic for future growth comparison.

The tank has C. wendtii 'Green in the far left and some Wendtii 'Red' or 'Bronze' next to the green wendtii with A. barteri 'Nana' under it. There is C. lutea in the right rear with more A. barteri 'nana' under it and C. lucens across the front. There is also some L. aromatica just to the left of center and I would like to put some R. macrandra in the right rear but I don't have any yet. I will soon have some C. balansea in the left rear corner along with some more L. nummularia. With the exception of the missing R. macrandra and B. japonica, the tank has the same plants, only the substrate has changed.

Since Crypts are generally described as "root feeders" it will be interesting to see how they do in a completely inert substrate with only water column fertilization. All of the other parameters (lighting, fertilization, etc) have and will remain the same.

So, do you think the Crypts will do well or am I going to need some root tabs under them?


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

*Any Update on the 3M Color Quartz Growth?*

Hi Matt,

I've been researching substrates for my next tank and I see you've had this one in for just about a month now. How have your plants been performing in this substrate?

I have two tanks which have 80%-90% Soilmaster substates w/ a smattering of Onyx sand and Florite. I am very happy and satisfied with how they are performing and growing plants. BUT, I'm really wondering if I'll be better off with a heavier substrate for my next aquatic project?:decision:

I'm planning a big planted tank (65g or 75g) for three or four Fancy Goldfish. I've got one small Ryukin sharing my Rainbowfishs' tank. So far he's being pretty good, but he's growing, and he sure does play and sift thru the substrate. Therefore, I'm wondering if it would be more goldie-proof if I go with something heavier. I'm thinking black would really show off their colors and I've read the Color Quartz from 3M is a cheaper option vs. Eco or Onyx. I'm hoping you can provide some feedback with your own experience?

Much Thanks in Advance,
Mud Pie


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Mud Pie Mama said:


> I've been researching substrates for my next tank and I see you've had this one in for just about a month now. How have your plants been performing in this substrate?


The plants are doing well so far. I have had some melting of the Crypts but I kind of expected that. They did sit in a bucket for 2-3 days while I redid the tank. I think it may be too early to tell for the crypts but the stem plants are doing very well.

I have two small swords I want to add just to see how they do in the inert sand substrate. I may add a root tab under one of them just to see if it improves growth and test the "root feeder" theory 



Mud Pie Mama said:


> I have two tanks which have 80%-90% Soilmaster substates w/ a smattering of Onyx sand and Florite. I am very happy and satisfied with how they are performing and growing plants. BUT, I'm really wondering if I'll be better off with a heavier substrate for my next aquatic project?:decision:


I guess that is really hard to say. In my opinion the Soilmaster is easy to plant in but some say it is too lite for them. I got used to the "liteness" of the older style of Eco Complete (larger grains, not the sand type grain that seem to be out now) and I don't mind the Soilmaster at all. The sand holds nearly everything though so it may be a good choice.



Mud Pie Mama said:


> I'm planning a big planted tank (65g or 75g) for three or four Fancy Goldfish. I've got one small Ryukin sharing my Rainbowfishs' tank. So far he's being pretty good, but he's growing, and he sure does play and sift thru the substrate. Therefore, I'm wondering if it would be more goldie-proof if I go with something heavier. I'm thinking black would really show off their colors and I've read the Color Quartz from 3M is a cheaper option vs. Eco or Onyx. I'm hoping you can provide some feedback with your own experience?


The 3M Colorquartz definately holds plants well as should be expected from sand. The color is nice too but I am a fan of black or dark substrates. I don't know if there is a substrate that is "goldie" proof though. The Colorquarts cost us about $25 for 50lbs so it is defintely cheaper than the Onyx but you will have to be near a distributor to get it or pay some hefty shipping charges. That would be the only drawback to the sand in my opinion but it may also be a drawback to the Soilmaster Select.


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