# Getting Closer



## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello,
My next goal on my 55 gallon El Natural project is to begin processing my substrate.

Although I keep getting sidetracked by finding new topics to learn about. I have occasionally seen the following term; "Redox". Cripes!!! I spent hours reading about reduction potential. Now my brain hurts! It was time well spent though, as anything I can learn that will help me create a better environment, especially for the higher life forms in my aquariums, is a really really good thing! So that was time well spent. But that topic is a whooper!

I have a couple of questions that I was hoping you could help me out with... because if I have to do any more research at the moment I think my eyes are going to fall out!!!

* I'm going to use MGOS and cap with Black Diamond black sand. All I could find was _medium_ grade sand, so that will have to do. I feel as though it would be easier to plant into the MGOS, and then lay down the sand cap after the plants are in. Does that method sound ok?

* On DW's site she mentioned planting emergent. My take on that: It would seem like the plants would recover from the shipping/planting process by giving them a period of time to grow in a "friendlier" environment before adding the full amount of water to the aquarium. Have any of you tried this approach? Had success with it? It sounds good to me in theory.

I did a little research on planting emergent and one guy said that his plants dried out and almost died, so he had to stop the process and quickly fill his tank with water. To counter that I thought I could perhaps cover the top of the tank with plastic wrap to keep the humidity in, occasionally opening it up to let the plants breathe. Anyone care to comment on this? If people are actually using the emergent method I will research it, but it would be nice to hear from someone that it actually works, and maybe score a quick tip or two as well. ty.

* Lastly, I wish to add some slope and/or a hill to my substrate, although with that I am concerned about H2S. Especially since I will be using a sand cap, albeit the sand is somewhat course. Do you guys have any tips or tricks on creating taller slopes and hills without using only the cap material to accomplish that?

Please throw a comment my way if you find the time. It would be really helpful to me if you did, and I would much appreciate it.

Thanks everyone and have a great weekend!

Grizz


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

MGOS? Sorry, I have trouble with acronyms, and this one is a letter off the usual "MGOC". See other comments in *bold* below.



Grizzle Fish said:


> Hello,
> My next goal on my 55 gallon El Natural project is to begin processing my substrate.
> 
> Although I keep getting sidetracked by finding new topics to learn about. I have occasionally seen the following term; "Redox". Cripes!!! I spent hours reading about reduction potential. Now my brain hurts! It was time well spent though, as anything I can learn that will help me create a better environment, especially for the higher life forms in my aquariums, is a really really good thing! So that was time well spent. But that topic is a whooper!
> ...


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Michael said:


> MGOS? Sorry, I have trouble with acronyms, and this one is a letter off the usual "MGOC". See other comments in *bold* below.


Hi Michael, it was very late when I wrote that post and I thought at the time that I had the correct acronym (s=soil). Yes, I did indeed mean MGOC. And thank you so very much for going out of your way to answer my post. I appreciate your expertise and all of the **Great** information you have provided me which I find to be of tremendous benefit. The technique of terracing with inert material is exactly what I needed to know. If I can pull that off properly I think that will add a great dimension to the look of my tank. I am getting close to clicking the button to order up the list of things in my cart. Even by going low tech there is still a sizable bill awaiting me.

I am going to make my plant selections from the list of plants that DW recommended. I believe that I am going to stay away from stem plants. I'm looking at the following as the selection to choose from, (all or part):

*Sword, Amazon* (Echinodorus bleheri)
*Sword, Ruffle* (Echinodorus martii)
*Sword 'Narrow Leaf Chain'* (Echinodorus tenellus)
*Sword, Ozelot* (Echinodorus 'ozelot')
*Sagittaria subulata* (Narrow Leaf)
*Anubias nana* (Anubias barteri v. Nana)
*Cryptocoryne, Wendtii* (Red)
*Java Fern* (Microsorium pteropus)
*Java Fern, Lace* (Microsorium pteropus v. Windelov')
*Frog Bit* (Limnobium spongia).

With the Frog Bit I will keep an eye on things to ensure that enough light gets through to the plants below. My take on that is that the concern is more about having too much light, as opposed to to little. So I will be conservative about how much light penetration reaches the bottom of the tank.

The one thing I have not yet decided upon is choosing what fish to put into my tank. I realize that they will be a integral component in supporting the plants. I really like German Blue Rams. I have had Blue Rams before, but was never able to keep them for the long term. My hopes would be that I have better success in a Walstad type aquarium due to the good quality and stable water parameters. I realize that relatively large numbers of fish are required to sustain an optimal Walstad type tank. I would have to do some research to find compatible tank-mates for the rams if I make the decision to go with them.

As always I am open to opinion, and that includes the fish to add. Ram's personalities are so cool in how they maneuver around the tank. They will make you smile just watching them, but I realize there are trade-offs sometimes in order to achieve a desired result.

I think my biggest concern with the decision to go with the Walstad method is the look of built-up tannins in the water. That brown tint that I see in some pictures and videos does not seem to me to be aesthetically pleasing. DW said in her book that she liked that look. Since I am only relating to pictures rather than real life, perhaps you Michael, or anyone for that matter could comment on that aspect so I could have another person's perspective? I'm just curious as to if you all just "deal with it", or if it's actually kind of cool looking in person? Or you just pretend it's not there [smilie=r:

Many thanks for reading and have a great evening,

Grizz


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

The brown tint is a buildup of tannins, usually from the substrate or driftwood. It is totally harmless and is actually beneficial to both the plants and fish. If you don't like the look, or, it is getting too brown, just run some carbon for a few days to remove it.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Kerry said:


> The brown tint is a buildup of tannins, usually from the substrate or driftwood. It is totally harmless and is actually beneficial to both the plants and fish. If you don't like the look, or, it is getting too brown, just run some carbon for a few days to remove it.


Thanks Kerry for your reply. I thought about that being a solution, but I sort of discounted it, as I remember reading that activated carbon in the water flow will eat up all of the DOC in a tank. I wasn't sure just how much of a detrimental impact that would have. In other words, how long it would take the normal organic processes going on in a tank to replenish stripped out DOC, and if the plants would suffer as a result of it's absence. I'm probably over thinking it but I have no practical experience to rely on in making judgments such as that, so it's very helpful to me to get that kind of information.

Cheers,
Grizz


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

If you don't like the look of tanins, the best way to prevent it is to prepare the soil before using it. MGOC releases LOTS if it isn't thoroughly soaked and drained many times or mineralized. After the tank is set up, you can also do frequent water changes until the tannins are removed, but it so much easier to do that to the soil in a bucket with a hose before it ever goes in the tank.

In a "classic" Waltad tank, fish populations are kept rather low. This is why you can get away with infrequent water changes and little filtration. Like most people, I don't have the discipline to do that, and even if I did the fish usually breed and the population increases anyway. So I add lots of circulation and biological filtration, and do a few more water changes than Walstad recommends.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello Michael,
After reading your post I have gained a ton of confidence. Wheew! I was under some misconceptions there and you brought me back to familiar ground. Awesome!

So thanks once again for another very informative reply. I will go with the soak and drain method you suggest. I wasn't sure of the importance of doing so many cycles, intuition tells me that you would want to retain a lot of which is in the soil, but I trust your experience and I'll go ahead and do a bunch of rinse cycles to wash the heck out of it before I put it in the tank. I have a medium sized Rubbermaid trash can that will work nicely for that purpose.

Wow, once again I was under a misimpression. I believed that you should be on the verge of over-populating fish to have a successful natural tank. I am actually relieved to hear that I was wrong (again), because over populating a tank goes against everything I have ever learned. Hea, in my two existing aquariums I have one fish per tank. A Delta Tail Betta fish in my 10 gallon, and a sweet looking Medusa Pleco in my 20 gallon. I have been thinking about adding a fish or two to the Pleco tank as he is more of a night dweller and only comes out during the day for a couple of hours. So I get to stare at a nice piece of driftwood and a PVC pipe fixture most of the time. I have heard of people putting Bristle nosed Plecos in planted aquariums, but I'm not exactly sure if a Medusa is the same species as a Bristle nose. I can tell you this, that little Medusa will munch the heck out of a romaine lettuce leaf!

Ah, about adding bio filtration. I have a Rena Filstar XP3 canister filter. Really nice filter and quiet as a mouse. I was going to run it empty just for circulation, but I feel a lot better now after your suggestion of going bio. I have many years of experience in that department. I understand that you are suggesting what you have found to be successful from your experience and it makes a lot of sense to me. I felt as though I was planning a mission to mars, and now at least I am back to being terrestrial. :tinfoil3:

I'm actually thinking now that this can work!

Grizz


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

....


Grizzle Fish said:


> I have heard of people putting Bristle nosed Plecos in planted aquariums, but I'm not exactly sure if a Medusa is the same species as a Bristle nose. I can tell you this, that little Medusa will munch the heck out of a romaine lettuce leaf!
> _Can't say about the medusa, but, my experience with bristlenose plecos might be of interest to you. I have two males, about 4.5 inches each now...just reaching sexual maturity... Both fish suddenly decided to start home building...and it seemed to become a competition between them...one picked the driftwood and the other two large river rocks that were leaning on each other, then both fish proceeded to start digging out hollows under the wood/stones in the substrate with their tails! My tank turned into a 37g milkshake in minutes! Within 3 days of this, I had green pea soup colored water and an algae bloom that engulfed the tank. I ended up tearing the tank down, re-doing the substrate (it was too thick and was anoxic so planned to re-do it anyway) caught the plecos and threw them into sump purgatory where they currently reside until I find them new homes! Now, if you want to keep these guys in a planted tank, many do so successfully, but, I'd highly recommend providing them a dedicated homesite...or just keep the females! There is a guy that makes pleco houses that might be an option...or make your own. _
> 
> I felt as though I was planning a mission to mars, and now at least I am back to being terrestrial. :tinfoil3:
> ...


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hi Kerry, thanks for your reply and for the information. My Pleco is around seven years old or more. He will indeed swish out a crevasse to make a hidey hole under driftwood or a rock. So you are right on the mark that it would be a good idea to provide advanced accommodations for the little guy. That must have been something to walk in and see your tank looking all black. Probably funny now to look back on, but I bet that it wasn't very amusing at the time!

The following is a picture of my Medusa Pleco that I took a couple of weeks ago. My camera is an iPhone 4 so I am lucky to get that good of a shot with it. In fact the quality of that shot is amazing for that thing compared to what I usually get from it. I'm waiting for the iPhone 6 to come out. Should be soon now.










About my project, I don't wish to deviate from what's known to be successful. I'm sure it's challenging enough as it is. I realize that initially some leaves may melt, drop off, or turn brown, and that some plants may not make it. I know that I am to look for new growth as an encouraging sign. And that it's not unusual to have an algae bloom for the first few months until the tank stabilizes, which I can combat by adjusting light levels and preforming frequent water changes.

What I need to do is to get out there today and start processing (rinsing) my MGOC soil.

I read that a 1 1/2 bags of MGOC should be sufficient for a 55 gallon tank. I have four bags of it. Do you think that I should I go ahead and process the entire four bags? I figure that it couldn't hurt, and I could perhaps convert one or both of my smaller tanks to planted later on. I guess the question is- if I have some processed wet MGOC left over, can it be stored somehow? I suppose I could dry it if necessary.

One last question; Is there a way here on APC to keep some kind of an on-line journal, so that I could document my project? I would like to add pictures too. I guess I could just start a new thread but I thought I would ask to see what you guys may recommend for doing that. I would like it so others could read and keep track of it too, as I would like to put stuff into it about what I have learned, tips, also stuff that didn't work so well too, so that it might help others who are at the same level that I am at right now, and maybe make it easier for them.

If I get to the soil today I'll update here. If I do then that will be another huge baby step!

Thanks again,

Grizz


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

I'd do all the soil and then dry it out. That way it is done and you won't have to go through the mineralizing again later.

You will find the Journal section under the Aquascaping section...here ya go;
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/

Like your medusa... here's one of my BNs...before I banished him to the sump...mmwaahhhaahaaa!:twisted:


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Process all the MGOC. Some batches of it have a lot of woody chunks, and you may loose half the volume you start with. If you have any left over you can use it in your next tank. . .or the one after that. . .or the fourth tank. . .then there will be the paludarium, they are so cool!


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Kerry said:


> I'd do all the soil and then dry it out. That way it is done and you won't have to go through the mineralizing again later.
> 
> You will find the Journal section under the Aquascaping section...here ya go;
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/
> ...


Sweet Pleco. An albee! Better not bring him over, it would probably be Pleco love fest, lol. Poor fish, to the sump! He probably loves it in there. 

Roger that on the soil process. And thanks for the link!!!

Grizz


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Michael said:


> Process all the MGOC. Some batches of it have a lot of woody chunks, and you may loose half the volume you start with. If you have any left over you can use it in your next tank. . .or the one after that. . .or the fourth tank. . .then there will be the paludarium, they are so cool!


Hey Michael and Kerry,
Well, I started processing the MGOC but I wasn't able to add all of it in there as I wasn't sure that my 20 gallon trash can could hold all five bags of it. I put three bags in there which filled the can to about the half way mark, and then I topped the can up to the 3/4 mark with water.

I don't know what to think. At first the whole thing sort of took on the consistency of quicksand. Like there was no separation between the soil and the water. Eventually, I think, it had a bottom layer and a top layer. But the top layer was thicker (deeper) than the bottom layer, and there really were not much of any large chunks, pieces of wood, or anything like that to speak of. Just like a 5 or 6 inch soil layer floating on the top of the sludge. I'm hoping that the top layer will become water-logged and sink to the bottom by the morning. If it stays like this I would have to syphon off the water from halfway up the can.

I have a 1" rigid clear plastic tube about four feet long that I was stirring with. If I held my hand over the top of it to create a vacuum in the tube, I could pull up a core sample so to speak and look at what was going on. The water layer in the middle part of the tube, which took up a significant portion by then, was almost black, so I can indeed wash out the soil by removing that (water) layer and then refilling the can.

I'll report back tomorrow on how that's going. Depending on how it goes I may be able to add more of the soil in there. Also, I'm hoping that the top layer sinks over night. Then I may wind up with some residual that hopefully will contain the sticks and bark you were referring to. At that point it was all too mixed in together to sort anything out.

I have a feeling that it will soon get better and become more manageable.

Grizz


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

*Day 2*
Using the Soak and Rinse/Drain method of Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil.

Note, I am going into a lot of detail here in case anyone is reading this because they are contemplating doing this method and want as much detail as possible. Hopefully this will prove to be informative. If not then feel free to flame me for wasting your time. :biggrin1:

Facts: Each bag of MGOC contains 8 dry U.S. quarts.

To re-cap, yesterday I emptied three bags of MGOC into a 20 gallon Rubbermaid trash can that I had filled 2/3 of the way with water). Note: (Probably better to add the soil first and then the water.

A great deal of the soil refused to sink, even after I stirred/mixed everything for about ten minutes. I didn't do any rinsing cycles yesterday and left it be after putting a lid on the can, for fear of some animal jumping in and drowning.

Today I resumed. I took off the lid, hoping that the soil would have sucked up water and sunk to the bottom. Well, no such luck.

So I scooped out the flotsam and put it into a bucket. I went on to skim the surface, removing all remaining material. Then I drained as much of the water out of the can as possible, leaving only the MGOC on the bottom.

I then decided to pour in my last two bags of MGOC. That will make a total of 5 bags, or 10 dry U.S. gallons of MGOC. I did this before adding back any water, but one bag at a time. A bag, fill with water and drain, then the next bag.

Here is where it became interesting, I wasn't paying that much attention to the actual soil yesterday. Today I examined the soil in each bag. The first bag of MGOC that I opened today contained beautiful rich black moist compacted soil. I poured that good looking stuff into my trusty Rubbermaid trash can, and as I filled the can with water the MGOC stayed on the bottom! Yea. However, the second bag contained soil a lot drier, more brown than black. As I added water to this batch, the MGOC shot straight up to the surface like a rocket. Probably the whole bag. That explains the discrepancies I have been reading where some people have no problems, and others say they have to throw away almost all of the MGOC. LACK of CONSISTENCY. So, if you go to buy MGOC, try and find bags where the soil feels hard inside, like one giant clump. Not all loose and light. I did notice the difference in the bags when I bought them. I got the last five bags they had.

So, the short of it is after I skimmed off all of the flotsam, I wound up with 5 gallons worth of non-usable soil. Since it was wet, it may have been more than half of what I bought. Now, it may be that if it is stored for a year, it may wind up turning into good usable soil. I just have a feeling that it gets better with age, and perhaps the "good" bags I bought were old.

From there I went on to do three rinse and drain cycles. I used 5/8 plastic tubing to syphon the water from the trash can into several of the orange H.D. buckets. To get as much of the water out as possible I tipped the can towards me and used a stainless steel bowl to scoop out the remainder of the water.

Each time I refilled, I filled the can up about half way, stopped, and then reached down into it and stirred the soil up off the bottom with my hand to get it all water-borne. A small amount of sludge would float up to the surface, (very thin layer), which I used a tea strainer to skim off. It was like a super fine black mud.

After several cycles I could tell that the water was getting "clearer", but there is still a long way to go before you could really use the word clear. I disposed of all the drained off "black" water. That water would be great to use on your lawn or plants I'm sure.

So from here my plans are to keep rinsing and draining until the water looks pretty clean.

Lastly, I would like to issue a caution. I left my garden hose in the can as I was swishing and working the soil around. This is my $50 GoodYear black garden hose I'm talking about. Apparently a bunch of the MGOC found it's way back down into my hose and it's now clogged up! I was unable to unclog it by turning on the faucet, and my water pressure is 90psi. So watch that. I'm not sure how I am going to unclog that sucker. Maybe I will have to start a thread


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

I have recently been through a similar process in cleaning MGOC, this is what I did.

1. I put the MGOC in a large bucket and ran water in till it overflowed mixing it up and continue to let it overflow (All the floaters, dark water ran out onto the grass, spread out with a rake afterwards). The water goes from a dark colour to a light brown colour with small particles, this is when I stopped.

2. What was left was about 80% sand/small organics and 20% larger organics. 

3. I let it sit for 24 hours and then emptied out the water, then refilled and let it sit for another 24 hours before draining it. 

I took some of cleaned MGOC and dried it out in the oven to examine the dried contents. There was about 5% fine clay with 5% fine organics, 20% organics and 70% sand with smaller organics.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello dr_juz.
Thank you so much for your reply.
Overflowing the container in my situation that may not be possible due to where I live. I live in this gated community where all they do is sit around looking for rule infractions to pounce on. The community is called Stepford I believe, but they haven't gotten around to delivering the hot wife to me yet. 

That does sound way easier than how I'm doing it though. I would advise listeners to give that a try.

From my experience it was very easy to scoop off the floating debris. However, to rinse the remainder of the heavy good soil, your way would definitely be preferable, V.S. carrying 5 gallon buckets of dirty water a long distance to pour it out. Way preferable! You know, damn the rules. I might just do that anyway. The more I think of it the better it sounds. I would caution everyone to ensure that if you go with the overflow method, that the water current isn't so strong that it picks up the soil and spills it out too.

Thanks again for the tip dr_juz!!!

Grizz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Ok, I just got in after proceeding with the afore mentioned rinse method suggested by dr_juz.

In regard to that fast-rinse method; Even though I was moving a lot of water through very fast, it appeared as though I wasn't making much headway in regard to clarity, and I began to be concerned that it was rinsing away too much of my soil.

My guess is that if I would have continued until the water turned reasonably clear, I may not have had enough soil left over to complete my project, as a lot of it was getting picked up in the water flow and going down the drain. So I felt it necessary to stop. However, even though that's true, the soil that I have processed so far is relatively heavy, and once it's capped shouldn't present much more of a problem than having to perform a couple water changes after I have the cap in place.

I will say that washing it like that probably did actually fast-rid it of a lot of the super fine particles which would have clouded the water. So if you use that method you have to know when to stop, as you don't want to loose too much of your soil. That said, his method may indeed have value if you apply it to suit your needs and have a sufficient amount of soil.

Now, all of that is only an opinion due to the fact that I stopped the process. If I had kept going perhaps I would have had a sufficient amount of soil to complete my project, but I didn't want to take the risk of winding up with not enough soil. Also, the consistency of what I have left over to work with now, seems like it would be a great medium for allowing roots to grow into it, and to take hold as well. About a perfect consistency I would say. Because that's what we're talking about here, creating something that the plants root systems are going to like and come to grips with. (Pun intended).

So now I'm ready to plan the next step...

Grizz


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello again,
Below is my understanding of the next step in processing MGOC, where I had copied (and edited), the following into my notes. Please verify.

Next Step:



> Mix your prepared soil 50/50 with Safe-T-Sorb.
> 
> Mixing the organic matter *(MGOC)*, with inorganic matter *(Safe-T-Sorb)*, means that the ammonia and other nutrients produced are held in the substrate where plant roots can use them, but where they will not harm fish.
> 
> By reducing the percentage of organic matter, you reduce the likelihood of the soil becoming anaerobic. I like a 50/50 mix.


If that holds to be true, then when is the appropriate time to mix the processed MGOC with the Safe-T-Sorb, with regard to the arrival time of my plants? (which I have not ordered yet). Can that be "pre-mixed" and stored for a couple weeks?

Also, how wet or dry should the MGOC be at mixing time?

Thanks,

Grizz


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

A sample scoop of the MGOC I processed sitting in a tea strainer.


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## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

I also removed all floating soil particles that wouldn't settle during each soak. I lost lots of soil in the process and I also sifted it through a kitchen strainer the last time when dry. I mean, why would one want to use soil that floats so easily.

My tank is a year and a half old and whether it's because of that or not, never had one bit of algae. I haven't cleaned the glass even one time and it's as clear as the first day except water spills on the outside  The soil also settles super fast if disturbed.

I have another tank in which I didn't mineralize the soil and although it's been doing great, it's prone to glass sort of algae like green dust.

As for mixing with Safe T Sorb, I was reading soil particles have higher CEC ability than most clays so I am not sure whether that's of great benefit or not in regards to this matter. Unmixed works just perfectly fine for me and the mineralized soil released no ammonia into the water column in my case but I didn't use rich soil like MGOC.



> Also, how wet or dry should the MGOC be at mixing time?


This is mine just before putting into the tank. (already mixed with a bit of red pottery clay)










And here below part of it when mineralized and sifted


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello SBS and thank you for your addition to my post. What you say is encouraging, and I'm with you on the opinion of not wishing to use anything that floats to the surface. I quickly made the decision to set all of the floating soil debris aside. Never having a problem with algae is very cool. Congratulations to you are in order!

I am pretty good at avoiding algae myself, with regard to my fish-only tanks. It's pretty easy really. A combination of light control and water changes to keep the levels down. Those two things, combined with not over populating your aquarium with bio beasts, equals success.

If you use good light control you can load up on the fish, but you need to be really on the water changes then! Absolutely. (I'm referring to non-planted of course).

I am so looking forward to an assist from the plants in that regard. If done correctly, I believe that the plants should make a significant contribution to the water condition. I am really excited about that prospect!!! I mean WAY.


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

I lost about 60% of the bag of MGOC with my wash, what was left was about mostly sand with about 20 % -30 % organics. I had planed to mix the washed MGOC with river sand if there was not enough to make a 1" bottom. I read on one of the post from Diana that it should be less than 20%, So I do expect a small algae boom, but I heard that putting in a hand full of tadpoles for a week or two sorts out the issue very quickly (just capture them as they start growing legs)


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

dr_juz said:


> I lost about 60% of the bag of MGOC with my wash, what was left was about mostly sand with about 20 % -30 % organics. I had planed to mix the washed MGOC with river sand if there was not enough to make a 1" bottom. I read on one of the post from Diana that it should be less than 20%, So I do expect a small algae boom, but I heard that putting in a hand full of tadpoles for a week or two sorts out the issue very quickly (just capture them as they start growing legs)


Hello dr_juz,
I have read more than a few posts regarding MGOC, and have to conclude that for whatever reason, their quality control went out with the bath water. That was realized in the dramatic difference between the bags I purchased at the same time. One of the bags yielded close to 100% once it hit the water, where almost the entire contents of the very next bag floated to the surface.

Roger that on the Algae. I fully expect to see a bloom possibly as soon as three days after I fill the tank, lasting perhaps up to three months. Although I really hope not!!!!!

It is getting exciting for me as I grow nearer to the point of planting my tank. I still have a way to go, things to order, the soil to complete, the aquascape plan to be accomplished, and lastly the plants to be selected and ordered. But I am getting there and I will update my progress as it unfolds.

Thank you again for responding and checking in. Nice to hear from you again.

Grizz


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"If that holds to be true, then when is the appropriate time to mix the processed MGOC with the Safe-T-Sorb, with regard to the arrival time of my plants? (which I have not ordered yet). Can that be "pre-mixed" and stored for a couple weeks?

Also, how wet or dry should the MGOC be at mixing time?"

You can mix the soil with the STS as soon as you are finished preparing the soil, and the mixture can be stored indefinitely. The soil can be quite wet when mixed because the STS absorbs the excess water--that is what it is made to do. The resulting mixture will be slightly moist, but dry enough to handle easily when it goes in the tank.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello once again Michael,
That is indeed good news. I think that I will actually do a few more rinse cycles on the soil. I have some work to do in the interim with planning my aquascape, so I'll use that time to my advantage.

At this time I would like to thank you for being there along the road for this project. You have been very helpful and generous in sharing your knowledge in a very detailed fashion. I hope I can repay you my presenting a healthy tank where you have been a significant part of the success. Otherwise, if it fails I have someone to blame! . Just kidding, but seriously, I really appreciate your help my friend!

Grizz


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

I did a few more washing cycles today, after which I drained all of the water off of the MGOC. I will let it sun dry tomorrow, but for now it's pretty dry.

So, guess what? I started with 10 gallons of MGOC, five 8 quart bags. I measured what is left in the container. 2.6 gallons! That means I lost 3/4 of the soil due to floaters, and floating off down the drain. I believe I should have enough to support my 55 gallon aquarium once I mix it with the CEC material, but wow. I didn't expect to lose that much.

Grizz


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Since we first started the Walstad soil discussion, more and more people have reported this high rate of waste when using MGOC. Maybe MG has changed the formulation, or quality control has gone down. This soil always had multiple problems, now it has another one.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

I'm drying the soil right now. I used two different on-line calculators to determine the volume of soil that remains in my Rubbermaid trash can. It seems like more than that when you look at it. It's three inches high, 16" in diameter. I saved the MGOC bags, so later today I'm going to fill some up to see if that pans out. I'll report back on the results. Really hopefully I'll have enough for the project. I put in a lot of work washing that stuff. Carrying all those 5 gallon buckets filled with water, two at a time, didn't bode well for my worn out spine either. "Man crippled due to planted aquarium project!" Perhaps you will read about me in the news. 


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

The MGOC has now dried to a point where it's comparable in dampness to the soil that came out of the original bags. To determine how much of the soil I still have remaining after all of the rinsing I have done, I refilled some of the empty MGOC bags that I saved.

To recap:
My rinsing consisted of putting the MGOC into a 20 gallon Rubbermaid trashcan and then filling the trash can up with water, stirring the soil really well, and skimming the junk off the top. (Sometimes I then let it sit overnight). Then syphoning off all of the water and disposing of it. I did this procedure approximately ten times. Somewhere in the middle of all that, and just once, I filled my trash can up with water, stirred the soil very well, then turned the hose on full so it overflowed the trash can for about two minutes or so.

*The end result is that after processing 5 bags, I have a good bag and a half now. Each bag is 8 dry quarts, (2 gallons). So starting with 10 gallons of MGOC, I have 3 gallons of processed soil left.*

In hindsight I would probably recommend staying away from the overflow method, unless perhaps you work with a deeper trashcan. If you could figure out how to use that method without losing a lot of soil, it would make the rinse process a heck of a lot easier!

Note: If you use the syphon method, it would be in your best interest to elevate your trashcan so the bottom of the trashcan is always well above the ground. As you get closer to the same level when syphoning, the flow rate drastically diminishes.

Grizz


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

Wow...sounds like that soil is worth its weight in gold now! It ought to work very well for you, though, so should be worth all the trouble. 

I was too impatient to go the mineralizing/washing route and just used plain generic topsoil added straight from the bag, then sprinkled with clay kitty litter and topped with pool filter sand. It is working for me now, but, it is my 3rd attempt on this tank after two fails with too thick, too rich substrates going anoxic and killing off plant roots. Anyway, I think the way you are doing your substrate is going to give you good results.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Cool, thanks Kerry. I placed the soil in several containers to sun dry out on my back porch. The soil is almost 100% dry now. I spent about an hour then just sitting outside and picking out little rocks and sticks to further refine it. I don't think that will make much difference, I just kept going on that because it was kind of relaxing and took my mind off of things. The soil is looking real nice at this point.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

The following are some crappy photos I took with my old phone:









The picture above is all I had remaining after processing all 10 dry gallons of MGOC. Just about 2.5 gallons.









Under the bark is all of the floating junk left over that didn't get washed down the drain. There are a whole lot of little stones under the bark that I shouldn't have covered up for the picture. Most of what's in there actually looks pretty good if you just grab a handful of it. See upper area 12:00.









This is a close up of the completed processed MGOC after it had been dried. "My Precious".









In the last stage of processing I tediously picked stuff out of the soil by hand, (it's what's spread on top of the junk soil in the second picture. Little bits of bark, sticks, and very small rocks, (and no, for you Monty Python fans the small rocks did not float! Believe it or not I picked a few cactus needles out of my hands too. Some of the small rocks were green and would crumble fairly easily. They are lighter green then they look in the picture. I believe that they are the source of copper in the MGOC and were probably put in there by design. I weeded out as many of those as I could as I felt that they wouldn't be healthy for the fauna. All told I probably spent twelve hours or so processing the soil.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Another mile stone. I made a major purchase this week. I have been planning this for four months now. Of course two days after I made my purchase my pet cat had to make a trip to the ER.
Now I just have to wait for Santa to arrive.

BRS 4 Stage RO Only System - 75GPD	$130.00
Watts Pressure Reducing Valve	$45.00
Adjustable RO Float Valve	$13.00
Glycerin Filled Pressure Gauge 1-100 PSI	$20.00
Membrane Flush Kit	$11.00
PH-200 Waterproof pH Meter $80.00
Plants - PENDING $125.00
Aquascaping Tool Kit $39.00
Seachem Replenish 500ml $4.00
Seachem Flourish Iron 500ml $11.00
Seachem Flourish Potassium 500ml	$11.00
Seachem Acid Buffer 300gram	$6.00
Seachem Alkaline Buffer 600gram	$12.00
Seachem Flourish Iron 500ml $10.00
Kordon Methylene Blue, 4 oz	$3.00
API GH and KH Test Kit $6.00
Aquatic Life Light T5 HO 2-Lamp	$120.00
Hydor ETH 300 In-Line External Heater $51.00
HM Digital TDS Meter	$26.00
HM Digital PH Storage Solution	$13.00
General Hydroponics Ph 7.0 Calibration Solution - 8 Ounces $10.00
American Aquarium Wonder Shells PENDING	$5.00
GH booster Seachem Equillibrium	$5.00
PPS-PRO Fertilizer Package	PENDING $30.00
Hydor ETH In-Line Heater 300w	$56.00
German Blue Rams (6) PENDING	$51.00
Neon Tetras (12) PENDING	$19.00
Spectrum Cichlid Formula	$13.00

Total $925.00
Tax $77.00
Shipping	$45.00
Total $1,047.00


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Aquatic Life Light T5 HO 2-Lamp
I received and installed it!


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

Lookin' good! Rams and neon will be very beautiful! I would like to add cardinals or neons to my tank, but, I think they would get eaten by my angels. I did add one blue ram yesterday with some Pristella tetras. The pristellas are nice, but, not as colorful. Can't wait to see yours set up!


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Kerry said:


> Lookin' good! Rams and neon will be very beautiful! I would like to add cardinals or neons to my tank, but, I think they would get eaten by my angels. I did add one blue ram yesterday with some Pristella tetras. The pristellas are nice, but, not as colorful. Can't wait to see yours set up!


Hey Kerry,
Blue Ram!!! I really want to put some of those into my tank. Some Neon Tetras too. You must let me know how he does. I understand that they like soft water with a more neutral pH. I have kept some in the past, for a while, but for months rather than years. I confess, I'm a fish killer! I'm so ashamed. "But your honor, I have hard water and a pH above 8". However, there is hope for me...

I received my reverse osmosis unit this week, but am totally bummed. Yes, bummed. To digress a bit, my water pressure here is close to 100psi. I let the company that sold me the RO unit know that, and they were kind enough to sell me a pressure regulator. Sounds great right? Only problem, besides the extra $50 bucks, is that the pressure regulator has a wacky thread pattern. So... consequently there is apparently no way to install the darn thing! Arrhhhh!










I had planned to have the whole thing totally installed by the end of the day today, but instead I got nowhere except becoming an expert at Home Depot's brass fittings section. Yes indeed, there are absolutely no fittings that will adapt that regulator to my water system. Yippee! The same water system that is in like fifty million homes across america! Sweet! Thanks for selling that to me guys.

It sucks because the company had to know that I would run into this problem, but didn't mention a thing about it to me.

I may have to go so far as to cut off the end of the copper pipe that feeds the cold water to my kitchen faucet, then solder a ball valve onto that so that I can cut the water flow for maintenance, then solder a Y joint onto the end of that, where one side of the Y will go to the faucet as before, and the other side to a fitting that will accommodate the regulator. Provided a fitting like that even exists. (a male 1/4" MIP slip joint brass fitting).

The sad thing is that I have never soldered copper pipe before. I know that you need a propane torch... And a FIRE EXTINGUISHER!

But all of that was totally unexpected, and is costing me both time and money.

Blue Ram. Peaceful Blue Ram. Nice Blue Ram... Arrrr.

So Kerry, I hope you have a great 4th of July!!! I'll get this figured out in time. Either that or a brain hemorrhage.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

I've gone to every hardware store in my city more times than I'd like to admit to look for fairly common objects that nobody here carries... Worst part is when they look at you like you're crazy for thinking such a thing would exist.

Contact the company before you start mutilating equipment and voiding its warranty. Could have been a manufacturing error, or they might have an adapter they'd be happy to send you. I find it hard to believe they'd last as a company using a threading that isn't standard, and if it's standard somewhere, I'm sure there's an adapter for it.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hey Skizhx, happy 4th!
I wrote the company yesterday but haven't received a reply yet. I sort of doubt that they have an adapter as they probably would have sold it along side the regulator if they did.

I did find another place that sells that same reg, and they even sell an adapter fitting, but the adapter is male-male, and I'm not sure what thread pattern. I need male - female. I wrote them but haven't heard back yet, as perhaps a gender changer (coupler) is available if their fitting turns out to be what I need. Then I could return mine and purchase theirs. Plus theirs was around ten or fifteen bucks cheaper. Or perhaps they would just sell me the fitting. Lowes is mentioned in their comments, so I may make a road trip out to Lowes. That's a long way from where I live though.

What worries me about trying to find the fitting I need, is that I searched for one on the internet and came up empty. Not a good sign. I think I'm going to wind up having to solder. Time to pull out the wallet again! And I don't really have the money for any of this stuff. Having a big project to work on keeps my mind off of other things, so in that respect it's worth it. But extra unanticipated costs are unwelcome. Plus I just got slammed with a giant vet bill for my critters that was unexpected. So getting this thing back on track will do me some good in a big way.

I'm pretty handy and actually that could turn out to be a fun project... After it's done! But with the right fitting this whole thing would have been very easy, and my fish would be on their way to having a better environment. Right now they are due for a water change. I have been buying distilled water at the store and blending it. That's very costly, where the ROI on the RO unit was going to be about four months.

~Grizz


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Sounds rough, but I still say keep in touch with the company and keep communications open. I'm sure there's something out there for you. If there's an adapter similar but not the one you need, I'm sure the one you need is manufactured and exists somewhere 

On the other hand, welding is fun, and learning a new skill is always valuable.

Sucks about the cost, but to be completely honest some of your purchases are a little puzzling to me. Why do you need the RO/DI, as well as all these acid/alk buffers?

Also, you purchased nearly $1000 of stuff and shipping wasn't free!?

Just asking because the list you gave earlier seems a bit unusual.

Also, as far as ANY fertilizers go, dry ferts are always much cheaper. Keep that in mind for future purchases 

Also, I'm Canadian, so we celebrated on the first, but happy 4th to you too!


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Skizhx said:


> Why do you need the RO/DI, as well as all these acid/alk buffers?
> Also, you purchased nearly $1000 of stuff and shipping wasn't free!?
> Also, I'm Canadian, so we celebrated on the first, but happy 4th to you too!


Hello again Skizhx,
To answer your question; I have three aquariums. A 10 gallon, a twenty gallon, and a 55 gallon that I'm working on for the planted project. I have had aquariums since I was ten years old but I still continue to learn how to support them. In fact I'm now learning more than ever before.

The main reason for the RO water is that I want to have complete control over the water parameters. Where I live, Southern California, the water is very hard and has a pH in the mid 8.x.

The fish that I like to keep all originate from their natural habitat of neutral to low pH water, with low to very low TDS. While some of them can survive with the tap water that I have, some of them will fall short of their normal lifespan, as well as not being as healthy as they could have been during their lifetime.

I think the best analogy I have read about putting fish who's natural habitat is soft neutral pH water into hard water, is like when you go swimming in a pool and open your eyes under the water. It burns your eyes but it won't kill you. That really struck me. I love animals and it's my wish to create the best environment I can for them, and for the plants too.

I have read some pretty good articles on how to use RO water for aquarium use. If you do some research on the subject, and maybe you have as we have never discussed it before, but for sake of discussion a common thing you will find is people saying that you can achieve your desired water parameters by blending your tap water with RO water. Now that may be the case if your tap water is already on the soft side, as it is in some areas, but if you have hard, high pH water, the mixture ratio required to get it down to where you want it to be is very high. And when you do get the water to where you want it by blending, you have perhaps thinned out the buffers so much that the water can become unstable and crash on you. That is my impression anyway, as well as experience, as I have been working with blending distilled water for the past few months.

I have learned that when using RO water, to get it to where you want it to be, and to get stable, it's better to use both alkaline buffers as well as acid buffers. That may sound contradictory, but apparently that is how it is done to achieve stability. That doesn't mean that there aren't people getting good results by other means, but that is the conclusion I have come to from what I have read so far.

That said, this is all academic up to this point, as I don't have the RO water yet to practice on, but my goal is to learn how to formulate stable, low TDS, neutral pH water. For accomplishing that based upon what I have learned so far, I need the ingredients on my list. Now, it may be that I wind up not needing everything that I purchased. It may also be that where I end up is a place different from where I began, but at least I will have everything I need to begin from my starting point. And if I wind up not needing everything, I feel that the cost of a few extra bottles is well worth the knowledge I will have gained in the end.

As for the shipping, that was kind of an estimate rather than actual. I was not able to purchase all of the things on my list from the same place. So yes, I did have to pay for some shipping. It's crazy how things add up. I can't believe the seemingly few things I purchased added up to so much. And I haven't even bought the plants and fish yet. My original plan was to go with pressurized Co2. Add a few more hundred onto that for Co2! But I squashed that idea due to money concerns.

But you know, this project is keeping me busy. I'm having fun. I am loving the new things I am learning here. We never know when our clock will run out. When our ticket will get punched. I am enjoying life when I'm working on my project and that for me is wonderful as I have been pretty depressed for a while now. It is also great to have made friends like you that I can kick around ideas with, have questions asked of me that keeps me thinking about my plans, allows me to reevaluate sometimes, and have a second opinion to keep me going in the right direction. So thank you for that!

By the way, I admire Canada. You guys are great neighbors and great people.
Thanks Skizhx, have a good day! :mrgreen:


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Kerry said:


> Lookin' good! Rams and neon will be very beautiful! I would like to add cardinals or neons to my tank, but, I think they would get eaten by my angels. I did add one blue ram yesterday with some Pristella tetras. The pristellas are nice, but, not as colorful. Can't wait to see yours set up!


Hi Kerry, by the way, I believe that I have had Pristella tetras in one of my tanks before. Except that the LFS referred to them as "Silver Tip Tetras". If so then they are pretty cool. I liked those babies.

To both you Kerry and Skizhx, how come you guys don't have any pictures up of your tanks? At least I couldn't find any of them. Show your stuff guys


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

That really sucks about your tap water. I lost a batch of crypts to very high pH water without realizing what was going on until after the fact. Long story short, my kitchen sink has lovely soft and fairly neutral water. For some reason the bathtub water is pretty basic. Guess which I used to test my water parameters, and guess which I used to fill the tank. Lesson learned on that one I guess.

I have a few pictures of 2 or 3 of my tanks kicking around this site somewhere... I moved a few years ago and the city I'm in now has nearly no support for the aquarium hobby, and less support for planted tanks so it's been hard to get many tanks going here. Then my hard drive crashed taking out a lot of pictures with it. I still have them on my old cell phone but haven't bothered recovering them to a computer yet.

There's been a couple projects and stuff that I wanted to take photos of and do a journal, but I usually find whenever I'm doing something worth taking progress pictures I'm too occupied and can't be bothered to stop and take a picture every step of the way.


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Hello again Skizhx,
that sucks about you losing a bunch of your photos. Probably a good idea to scavenge the ones you have off of your phone sooner than later.

That's really weird that you have two different water types coming out of different rooms in your house. Is that a Canadian thing? 

I'm going to try and make it out today to a real hardware store, rather than a "hardware supermarket". I'll see if I can find someone to recommend a solution to the regulator/RO unit problem. I will probably have to buy a torch, etc. etc. I just want to get that thing on-line so I can start making water. My other two tanks are due for a water change and I don't want to buy any more expensive water at the store.

I eventually want to turn my other two tanks into planted as well.

Looking forward to seeing a picture or two of your tanks.

~Grizz


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

*"The Water Pressure Regulator From Hell"*
I needed to install a water pressure regulator in front of my new reverse osmosis unit. The company I purchased this stuff from didn't provide me any way to connect the regulator to my water supply. I had to improvise with a quite costly solution...

This picture shows what I needed to buy to install the parts.
There's a little bonus there too!!!









Here's all of the parts that I had to buy to connect the _regulator from hell._ (black thing)
(shown dry assembled). The braided hose supplies cold water to kitchen faucet.









Actually the bonus is white grape juice. Tastes pretty good though 

Oh, I already owned the propane torch.


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry for the problems with your RODI hookup. Hope you get it working soon...and have fun doing it! LOL!

My blue ram is doing well! He's just a little guy, but, he cruises with the pristellas and isn't afraid to jump in the melee with the angels at feeding time. He actually dives in between them at the surface now to get the good flakes. It didn't take him long to learn that 'He who waits at the bottom, gets crumbs!' LOL!

Here's a link to my journal thread. I've had a lot of ups and downs with getting this tank going...and I'm sure there will plenty more to come.... [Clickey Here for 37g Journal]


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Kerry said:


> Sorry for the problems with your RODI hookup. Hope you get it working soon...and have fun doing it! LOL!


Hey Kerry,
I finished installing the unit last night and have it all working. I even split off the output to a faucet I installed on my sink. It's making water right now. So the next step for me is to hook up all of the plumbing.

I still need to find a nice piece of driftwood. Once those things have been taken care of I can buy the plants, and once they arrive the fun begins! I think that all of my supplies have now come in. I just received my heater, so now I can proceed on the plumbing work.

Fun fun fun.

PS, I'll check out your journal, I'm very interested in that. Thanks.

~Grizz


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## Kerry (Sep 5, 2013)

Sounds like it is all coming together! I think the building process is where all the fun is, anyway...once it's all done...time for a new tank!


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## aquarium kid (Nov 26, 2012)

Sounds like it's coming together!


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

Just an update as it probably looks as though I simply up and quit the project!

Nope, just been reading and learning some more. I have a giant fear that I will have huge success at growing a giant algae bloom, or create super acid-water that kills everything, including myself in my sleep, as well as the rescue personnel from the Hazmat team!

Today I revisited the thread *"How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate, by Aaron Talbot"*. I found everything on Amazon's site that Aaron's article suggests to create his super-soil, (keeping in mind that I have already "mineralized" my MGOC potting soil).


```
Ingredients as follows:
(Clay) API First Layer Pure Laterite Aquarium Planting Medium, 20-Ounce:  $9.63
(Dolomite) Espoma GL6 Garden Lime Soil Amendment, 6.75-Pound:  $4.98
Voluntary Purchasing Group Inc. 32145 4 lb. Muriate Potash:  $11.98
```
.

I will be ordering those things up soon unless anyone has other suggestions for the above purchase plan.

I have finally gotten around to staining my aquarium cabinet with a nice dark stain, as it has been bare wood all these years. Looks nice now, and even better than the sucky picture that makes it look not only ugly but way tall.









I'm currently cleaning my aquarium, going to leak test it, and I'm going to paint the back and sides of it with black paint.

After that, while it's still outside, I'm going to connect the Rena canister filter to it, and plumb in the Hydor 300w in-line heater I bought. Then I'm going to run the filter, examine the custom spray-bar I created (second set of holes drilled on the other side), to hopefully find that it produces a mild current and diffuses it nicely throughout the tank with minimal surface disturbance. Big hope on that one.









Also I will get the heater's temperature set at that time so I don't have to mess with it at go-live time. I should be done with all that by the end of this week.

So it's coming together! I still have to decide on my fish selection, snails, and inverts. Also I have to finalize my plant selection. I'll be making some separate posts for fish & plants, but will include the results here in this thread so as to keep a record going here of my progress, or disaster. 

Thanks for reading, until next time...

~Grizz


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## aquarium kid (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm not an expert but I believe I read that garden lime is not the right dolomite, hopefully someone more experienced will chime in


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## Grizzle Fish (May 29, 2014)

aquarium kid said:


> I'm not an expert but I believe I read that garden lime is not the right dolomite, hopefully someone more experienced will chime in


Ah, thanks a lot for that AK. I'll look into that.

~Grizz


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