# Bba?



## joker0421 (Apr 22, 2011)

hey everyone....im pretty sure i have BBA. it started out black and has since turned a greenish rediish color. i have a 20 long and had a DIY co2 hook up but pulled it today cause i read that unstable co2 levels can cause it. i also read dosing with excel can help which i have been doing the past 3 days. can anyone give me some more insight on this?!?!?! thanks!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

You could do a Search for topics about BBA. There is a lot of information about it because people refuse to understand simple things and get this algae quite often.

My take:

1. Start changing 10% of the water every other day.
2. Get a larger filter
3. Use only biomedia in the filter
4. Shut off CO2 at night
5. Feed the fish only every other day for several weeks
6. Excell can only help, but if your tank is clean you are not going to need it.
7. Introduce shrimp - Amanos AND dwarfs. (Both do not like Excel so be careful)

Maybe you see maybe you don't - all of the above are meant to reduce the organics in your tank (yes, including item #4). It is not excessive fertilizing or unstable CO2 levels that cause BBA. It's an imperfect cleaning system that allows for organics to accumulate (fast or gradually).

--Nikolay


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## onefang (Apr 10, 2011)

Keeping consistent CO2 will definitely improve your situation. It won't completely stop it's growth, but it will slow it enough to prevent it from spreading like wildfire. Generally it's recommended to keep a consistent 30ppm of dissolved CO2.
I know how hard it can be to keep this level consistent with DIY, but maybe if you ran two bottles at once, you could get the levels you need with less fluctuation.

BBA is pretty rough to remove. Depending on plant species, you can make a solution of 1 parts bleach to 19 parts water, and give the affected plants a 2 minute dip. This will kill the algae, and make it easier to rub off with your fingers.

I've also heard that overdosing excel will stop it in it's tracks, as glutaraldehyde(what excel is derived from) is an algaecide.
Be careful doing this if you have sensitive fish species, or valuable inverts in your tank. This stuff is pretty nasty.

Here is a decent article on BBA(red algae)
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/red-algae.html


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I have it on my driftwood and I've accepted it as part of the flora.  It doesn't spread or get unsightly so I choose to ignore it.

In the past, I've turned the filter off and used a dental syringe to squirt Excel directly onto the affected area. Wait about half an hour and then turn the filter back on.

Excel will kill mosses, vals, and some inverts so yeah be really careful. And as mentioned before, this is a temporary treatment. It will kill those particular patches but if the underlying problem is still at large, it won't be long before it reemerges. 

When it dies it turns a wacky rusty color. Then gray. Something to look forward to. 

I believe BBA likes high phosphates especially. Check your tap water and see if that isn't the source- some areas treat water with phosphates as protection for pipes. If it's in the tap water, more and more water changes won't help. And sorry to say, I never had luck with those pads they sell to remove it.


Good luck!


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

niko said:


> You could do a Search for topics about BBA. There is a lot of information about it because people refuse to understand simple things and get this algae quite often.
> 
> My take:
> 
> ...


+1

Couldn't agree more. There are many ways to have a successful algae free setup, but the one thing they all have in common is organic management. BTW you could pump all the co2 into a tank you want, but it's not the co2 that is getting rid of the algae it's the uptake from the plants. What if I have a thinly planted tank. Say an iwagumi or minimalist setup why would high co2 solve an algae problem?


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## onefang (Apr 10, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> +1
> 
> Couldn't agree more. There are many ways to have a successful algae free setup, but the one thing they all have in common is organic management. BTW you could pump all the co2 into a tank you want, but it's not the co2 that is getting rid of the algae it's the uptake from the plants. What if I have a thinly planted tank. Say an iwagumi or minimalist setup why would high co2 solve an algae problem?


High CO2 has nothing to do with it. Consistency does. As well as matching light levels to your CO2 and nutrients, which is something that is difficult on a DIY setup. If you are running a lot of light over that hypothetical iwagumi, and you have shaky co2, you will experience algae. It'd be better to have no CO2 at all, rely on fish respiration for that aspect, and lower lighting to match.
Organics may have some small part in in the propagation of certain algae, but I'd disagree that it's a catch all solution. Consider new tanks, which are tidy and clean. Very low organics, as there hasn't been time for anything to build up(with the acceptation of maybe some ammonia). Suddenly, everything is covered in GSA or BBA. It's the rapidly fluctuating water chemistry that makes it a less than optimal environment for plant uptake - a lack or over abundance of nutrients, too little/much light, little, inconsistent, or no C02.. all the things plants don't like, algae thrives on.

Managing Nutrient uptake is much more important than a super clean tank. The Walstad method is a great example of a system where there is a high level of organics, whilst having no algae troubles. Why is this? Because the balance of the system is such, that the plants uptake all the excess nutrients quickly, depriving algae of a viable fuel source. CO2 is provided by the aquatic inhabitants, or decomposition of organic matter, which is about as consistent as nature can provide.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

onefang said:


> High CO2 has nothing to do with it. Consistency does. As well as matching light levels to your CO2 and nutrients, which is something that is difficult on a DIY setup. If you are running a lot of light over that hypothetical iwagumi, and you have shaky co2, you will experience algae. It'd be better to have no CO2 at all, rely on fish respiration for that aspect, and lower lighting to match.
> Organics may have some small part in in the propagation of certain algae, but I'd disagree that it's a catch all solution. Consider new tanks, which are tidy and clean. Very low organics, as there hasn't been time for anything to build up(with the acceptation of maybe some ammonia). Suddenly, everything is covered in GSA or BBA. It's the rapidly fluctuating water chemistry that makes it a less than optimal environment for plant uptake - a lack or over abundance of nutrients, too little/much light, little, inconsistent, or no C02.. all the things plants don't like, algae thrives on.
> 
> Managing Nutrient uptake is much more important than a super clean tank. The Walstad method is a great example of a system where there is a high level of organics, whilst having no algae troubles. Why is this? Because the balance of the system is such, that the plants uptake all the excess nutrients quickly, depriving algae of a viable fuel source. CO2 is provided by the aquatic inhabitants, or decomposition of organic matter, which is about as consistent as nature can provide.


The Walstad method only works for certain setups, thus the low light, etc. Any system benefits from low organics as long as the tank is dosed.

New setups have no bio-filter of cause they get algae. It doesn't take alot to get algae going. That's why carbon, water changes and other organic removal products re always recommended at start up to fill the void of an immature bio-filter.

Don't confuse the walstad method and new tanks with a typical setup. What good is consistent co2 if there aren't enough plants to take advantage of it. Explain to me what that does. If I have a thinly planted tank with good light and I just have a small carpet of hairgrass, good co2 isn't going to prevent algae, but organic control will.


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## onefang (Apr 10, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> The Walstad method only works for certain setups, thus the low light, etc. Any system benefits from low organics as long as the tank is dosed.


I don't understand. You are saying that a Walstad tank doesn't count? This is the precise system in nature that we are trying to emulate, is it not? What exactly counts as an organic, by your definition? decaying plant matter, fish waste, excess ammonia?



> New setups have no bio-filter of cause they get algae. It doesn't take alot to get algae going. That's why carbon, water changes and other organic removal products re always recommended at start up to fill the void of an immature bio-filter.


And what is the first chemical precisely, that is the primary target of the biofilter? Ammonia. Plants as well as algae like to utilize ammonia as a nutrient source. So basically(assuming that ammonia counts as an organic) the decaying plant matter, fish waste, etc, is breaking down and releasing ammonia. The Nitirifcation process hasn't started yet, so there is an excess(more than the plants are uptaking in less than hospitable conditions) of this ammonia. You use Carbon and water changes to remove the excess, which is pretty much just managing nutrient uptake mechanically.



> Don't confuse the walstad method and new tanks with a typical setup. What good is consistent co2 if there aren't enough plants to take advantage of it. Explain to me what that does. If I have a thinly planted tank with good light and I just have a small carpet of hairgrass, good co2 isn't going to prevent algae, but organic control will


I am not confused. I am just using deductive reasoning to disprove your assertion. These are just situations where the presence of, or lack of, "organics" has little to no influence on algae. 
Matching light and consistent CO2 levels(the driving factors of photosynthesis) to the uptake ability of whatever plants, to the nutrient content in the water column. Like it or not, this balance is necessary to prevent algae growth.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

onefang said:


> I don't understand. You are saying that a Walstad tank doesn't count? .


Of course it counts, but I'm talking about something that would work in any tank. Most tanks are med light, co2/excel, etc. Not the Walstad method which is very 'limiting' in it's parameters. Limiting organics doesn't tie you to any method nor does it force you to have a tank of plants.

Your logic doesn't work, because if I had a tall tank and I wanted one stem of hairgrass in it, co2 isn't going to prevent algae and don't say reduce light because I need good light to grow my carpet in a deep tank. Limiting organics would be the only real situation.


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## onefang (Apr 10, 2011)

> Your logic doesn't work, because if I had a tall tank and I wanted one stem of hairgrass in it, co2 isn't going to prevent algae and don't say reduce light because I need good light to grow my carpet in a deep tank. Limiting organics would be the only real situation


.

In any case, whatever plants, tank shape, etc.., it doesn't matter. The only part organics has in algae growth is possibly by breaking down into ammonia(causing a imbalance by excess). The rate of ammonia uptake by plants is directly related to Light intensity and the presence of a consistent, continuously bioavailable carbon source(CO2 in this case).
If you don't have the light and the CO2 in equilibrium with the plant mass(and nutrients present), algae is going to grow.

My newest tank is a great example of this(Which BTW, is 24" high tank). When I first set it up, I hadn't gotten my regulator, was missing a bulb in my light fixture, and was waiting on a shipment of dry ferts. But being me, and impatient, I decided to just let it be until the stuff arrived in the mail. By the time it all showed up, everything was covered in diatom algae, the glass was slowly being consumed by GSA, and my staurogyne was starting to grow some tufts of BBA. 
Well wouldn't you know it, I started dosing the tank, put new T5HO bulbs in my fixture, and am running the CO2 at or above 30ppm.. suddenly the GSA has vanished, the diatoms are almost undetectable, and the BBA has just about disappeared. What is left has changed to a reddish color, and is essentially dead. I didn't clean the tank, change the filtration media, dose excel, or introduce fauna to control any of it. How do you explain the sudden recovery?

The fact is that when plants have an optimum environment to grow, algae seems to suffer. Why do you suppose that is?

When you can define why "organics" cause algae, and which "organics" you are talking about, then maybe we can discuss this further.

I honestly don't mean to be contrary or combative, I just don't see this point of organics having any direct influence. Nor has any substantial empirical evidence been provided to say otherwise.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

onefang said:


> .
> 
> In any case, whatever plants, tank shape, etc.., it doesn't matter. The only part organics has in algae growth is possibly by breaking down into ammonia(causing a imbalance by excess). The rate of ammonia uptake by plants is directly related to Light intensity and the presence of a consistent, continuously bioavailable carbon source(CO2 in this case).
> If you don't have the light and the CO2 in equilibrium with the plant mass(and nutrients present), algae is going to grow.
> ...


What I find really amusing and I don't even disagree with all your points (most go without saying) is that I've started up countless tanks and none of them have had nuisance algae not in the beginning or even two years after startup. Why shouldn't I share what I do with the forum. You recently started up a tank and had all kinds of algae issues, you say things like "I've heard excel does this.." and you link an article on algae from 1996, but somehow your an authority and you challenge my methods. When you gain more experience and have more success with your own experimentation and setups come back and talk. Linking an article from 1996 is what keeps certain myths about algae going.

BTW your 'high' tank is not a 'high light' tank. You have mostly low to medium light plants. So why don't you explain from your vast experience how you would deal with your tank if you needed to go to a very high light setup to support a demanding carpet type plant.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Organics.

I believe they are the culprit for many problems in a planted tank. But I cannot explain what molecules exactly I call organics. Partialy deccomposed proteins like indol and scatol come to mind. But there is more. What are they I do not know. But neither I nor someone else can argue with the following logic:

So you have some plants and some fish/snails in your tank. They make waste - dead leaves, dead roots, oozing the content of the cells, fish poop, fish slime from the scales, snail waste... Some visible, some not. Ok.

How does all that waste relate to Ammonia? Waste just spontaneously breaks down by itself and forms Ammonia? Should we assume no other biochemicals float around in our tanks but Ammonia and Ammonia only? Do I believe that in my tank there is only water + waste ready to turn into Ammonia + pure Ammoia. Of course not. Someone will say "Oh yes, we also have Phosphorus!". But P and NH4 are not the only trash in our tanks. That we cannot deny.

What are all these "unknown" waste chemicals that are not Ammonia or Phosphate and are not new, fresh, steaming waste from plants and animals?

I call them "organics". And there is a test for them.

I suspect that ADA has a good reason to track the so called "Chemical Oxyged Demand" (COD). It's a way to measure ...."organics" . Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on why ADA could be vaguely intersted with COD. They publish it for every single tank they show in the Aqua Journal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_demand

Amano's big home tank has a COD:4mg/l. Is that way low or not I do not know. But I'd be surprised if it's high or even medium. I don't believe his water is "somewhat dirty" with organic compounds. Do you? Note that he does not check BOD but COD. That's how they differ:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090402072505AAgrEF8

Now - does all that have to do with BBA? I do believe so because I'm very confident about how to erradicate BBA through reducing the "organics". Without going into too much details what these "organics" are I described my "method"of getting rid of BBA above. To me Cladophora is the worst algae in a planted tank.

--Nikolay


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## onefang (Apr 10, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> What I find really amusing and I don't even disagree with all your points (most go without saying) is that I've started up countless tanks and none of them have had nuisance algae not in the beginning or even two years after startup. Why shouldn't I share what I do with the forum. You recently started up a tank and had all kinds of algae issues, you say things like "I've heard excel does this.." and you link an article on algae from 1996, but somehow your an authority and you challenge my methods. When you gain more experience and have more success with your own experimentation and setups come back and talk. Linking an article from 1996 is what keeps certain myths about algae going.
> 
> BTW your 'high' tank is not a 'high light' tank. You have mostly low to medium light plants. So why don't you explain from your vast experience how you would deal with your tank if you needed to go to a very high light setup to support a demanding carpet type plant.


No need to make this personal. I haven't grown blyxa or staurogyne before, is it so wrong to ask for input? Make sure an avenue I was considering wasn't going to fry my plants? I've personally seen Excel totally waste fissidens, several mosses, and subwassertang. I've seen may a post considering it as a source of melt/die off.
I am not saying you aren't entitled to share, not at all. Discussions like this are where a lot of this stuff gets hashed out. The article from 1996.. who cares? It's concise and informative. My algae issues on my tank were directly related to me wanting to get my tank scaped and running. I knew there was going to be problems, but I just accepted that as a consequence of my impatience.
I shared the story merely to illustrate that what you are saying doesn't hold up.

I don't claim to be an authority. I do however see logical flaws in your statements, and I am just trying to see if there is substantive evidence for the efficacy of your methods. Your personal attacks on me certainly don't help whatsoever.

I never claimed that my tank was high light. I did claim that it was 24 inches high - which it is. I never claimed vast experience(although I've been keeping planted tanks for about 10 years now, so I know a thing or two). Just because I am new on this forum, and have a low post count, doesn't mean I am going let you bully and insult me. Especially when all I was doing was challenging what you were saying, not you personally.

I am going to leave this be, as I don't feel that anything else contributory will come of it.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

onefang said:


> I don't claim to be an authority. I do however see logical flaws in your statements, and I am just trying to see if there is substantive evidence for the efficacy of your methods. Your personal attacks on me certainly don't help whatsoever.
> 
> I never claimed that my tank was high light. I did claim that it was 24 inches high - which it is. I never claimed vast experience(although I've been keeping planted tanks for about 10 years now, so I know a thing or two). Just because I am new on this forum, and have a low post count, doesn't mean I am going let you bully and insult me. Especially when all I was doing was challenging what you were saying, not you personally...


Firstly it's you that challenged me first. Go back, who quoted who. Secondly if you have so much experience why would you not be able to start up a tank algae free. I don't share any information that I didn't experience firsthand. I don't need to quote links from '96 that contain a slew of myths. So that's what's wrong with it. The ironic thing is that I agree with much of what your saying. organic control to me is broad. It's water changes, carbon, uptake, light control. The point that started this was co2. Consistent co2 doesn't mean anything in a tank that doesn't have a certain amount of plant matter. It's not a universal fix like many believe. Organic removal will help in every setup as long as the tank is dosed with the inorganic salts we call (NPK) that is needed for that setup.


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## onefang (Apr 10, 2011)

niko said:


> I call them "organics". And there is a test for them.
> 
> I suspect that ADA has a good reason to track the so called "Chemical Oxyged Demand" (COD). It's a way to measure ...."organics" . Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on why ADA could be vaguely intersted with COD. They publish it for every single tank they show in the Aqua Journal.
> 
> ...


Good stuff.. very interesting reads. I'll have to do a little more research on the relationship these organic pollutants have with algae growth.



> Firstly it's you that challenged me first.


It wasn't a challenge. I don't understand why you are getting so personally involved.



> Secondly if you have so much experience why would you not be able to start up a tank algae free. I don't share any information that I didn't experience firsthand. I don't need to quote links from '96 that contain a slew of myths. So that's what's wrong with it.


Uh, I recall stating that I was impatient, and scaped it knowing there would be consequences.
I did just and have experienced this stuff first hand. Again I don't understand why you feel so personally vested in this issue. Or why you would try to invalidate me with sarcasm and snarky comments. To each their own I guess. Just trying to get to the "meat" of what exactly "organics" we are talking about here(BTW thanks again niko for the links).



> The ironic thing is that I agree with much of what your saying. organic control to me is broad. It's water changes, carbon, uptake, light control. The point that started this was co2. Consistent co2 doesn't mean anything in a tank that doesn't have a certain amount of plant matter. It's not a universal fix like many believe. Organic removal will help in every setup as long as the tank is dosed with the inorganic salts we call (NPK) that is needed for that setup.


I wouldn't say it's irony, so much as it is back-tracking. But whatever, I am done with this conversation. I am upset with myself for participating at all in what turned out to be another stereotypical forum "Alpha" display.

Sorry!


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I keep asking you on-topic questions and you keep going back to personal stuff. Here:



onefang said:


> High CO2 has nothing to do with it. Consistency does. ...


What does consistent co2 do if the plant matter isn't there. The one constant is organic removal.



onefang said:


> If you are running a lot of light over that hypothetical iwagumi, and you have shaky co2, you will experience algae. It'd be better to have no CO2 at all, rely on fish respiration for that aspect, and lower lighting to match.


So if I have a hard to grow heavy light needs tank. I should drop co2 and lower my light. OK then I have dying plants more organic matter. Sorry that won't work.



onefang said:


> Organics may have some small part in in the propagation of certain algae, but I'd disagree that it's a catch all solution. Consider new tanks, which are tidy and clean. Very low organics, as there hasn't been time for anything to build up(with the acceptation of maybe some ammonia).


Your confusing low organics with organic mgmt. If you don't have a bio-filter it doesn't take alot of organics to release ammonia which is why most people in the know including ADA recommend carbon and other organic removal media at setup. It's very simple that this is a stop gap until the bio-filter kicks in.

My major point is many simply think co2 will eliminate there BBA issues, but doesn't work from setup to setup. Low organic content works in EVERY setup as long as the plants have what they need.

Sorry that's my Alpha on-topic remarks to your comments.


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