# Eco complete or Flourite black???



## wwh2694 (Aug 15, 2008)

Need to decide which one to get. Which is better? Long term use? Compaction? Slope? Cleaning?


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

flourish is bigger and going to be cheaper... if you really want to get the best bang for your buck if you can still find it use soil master select from john deers stores 18.99 for a 50 pound bag. it's what I use and i've only had to put root tabs in it.


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## tae2610 (Sep 9, 2009)

fishyjoe24 said:


> flourish is bigger and going to be cheaper... if you really want to get the best bang for your buck if you can still find it use soil master select from john deers stores 18.99 for a 50 pound bag. it's what I use and i've only had to put root tabs in it.


Where is john deers stores and what is soil master package looks like I can not google it.


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## spypet (Jul 27, 2007)

FYI: there is a forum section dedicated to substrate.

http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083365

aka: Turface Pro's Choice - Grey

it's not so easy to get... you need to find a dealer within driving
distance that has it, as they may only buy a pallet at a time.
if you find a dealer who has in within your State, you may be able
to get him to ground ship it to you affordably. back in 2007
it took me Months before I got my 2 bags - I love this stuff.
it's soft light almost soil like, and looks gorgeous in a planted tank.
make sure to under feed you fish, since you can't vacuum this.

Eco complete or Flourite black weight a ton compared to SMS,
so you should get those if you plan on using high water flows.
Florite black vacuums better than Eco complete which is dusty.
because SMS is so light, it takes up twice the tank volume per
pound than EC/FB, so 50lbs of SMS is like 100lbs of EC/FB.
compaction is not an issue, but you can't slope this light clay.

since SMS is inert, you must put a tank starter under it, and
expect to cycle your tank a few weeks before putting fish in.
i prefer root tabs to water borne ferts, so SMS works for me.
many invertebrates like snails, crabs and crayfish, even eels
love to bury themselves in this light weight soil like stuff.

I'm astonished an Oil-Dri distributor does not market this stuff
directly to planted tank hobbyists - it may be discontinued.
years ago an online fish reseller would actually pour this into
drums and resell it as their own substrate for triple the price.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

I think I still have some soil master select. how big is your tank?
I'm in Plano or if you are going to the meeting I can bring it with me.


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm pretty sure those two are pretty different... Eco Complete is more like ADA Aquasoil, and the Flourite is mostly just an iron source. 

I used to use clay colored flourite mixed with standard gravel but I found that over time it breaks down into smaller bits. I actually switched to coarse sand blasting substrate called Black Beauty from Clemtex here in Dallas. It's like $17 for 100lbs. It's made from coal slag and contains iron (though I don't know if it's bio-available,) it's heavy for its size and doesn't seem to break down at all. I have used it for a few years now with no problems. Only thing is I would recommend the coarse grade 3 as grade 6 is nearly sand and I find it harder to vacuum. Other companies sell this under a different name. 

That said, if you want to grow difficult plants, there is nothing close to AquaSoil. It's messier and definitely expensive, but it works well.


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## wwh2694 (Aug 15, 2008)

Thank u all for the quick responce. I am thinking of getting a 120cm tank thats about 90g. Im just figuring out what equipment to get to build a new tank. I have a 60cm tank that I use flourite black its good easy to vac when needed. Looking at the substrate doesnt look natural but it does the job done, good healty growth. I will be looking for some altetnatives surely. Again thanks.


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## akira117 (Dec 8, 2010)

I have a new 100g tank, what do you guys recommend? I found last week:

Petsmart - Flourite and Floramax for $16-19 a 16lbs bag
Lesco - SMS 50lbs bag
Aquariumplanted.com - black sand - 5 gallons bucket for 70

I was thinking to go with the SMS but I read that some ppl complain it is light and won't hold the plant down. Any advice would be helpful. I'm a beginner at planted tank.


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## spypet (Jul 27, 2007)

my >3" of SMS holds plants down fine,
you just can't slope, vacuum or disturb
SMS without it kicking up clouds of dust.
IMHO, SMS more closely approximates
the kind of muck most aquatic plants
are found growing - out in the real world.
any plant safari go'er knows this well.

it may also depend on how you keep tanks.
beginners tend to rearrange the furniture in
their tanks, while veterans set it and forget it.
beginners are more likely to overfeed their tanks,
and require more vacuuming,
while veterans may not vacuum at all.
so these tendencies may also help dictate 
what sort of substrate you should choose.

akira; 
did you confirm anyone sells;
"Lesco - SMS 50lbs bag"
just because we discuss it, 
does not mean you can get it.


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## akira117 (Dec 8, 2010)

I heard from another for forum, it will depend so I will have to confirm first. I'll post and let you guys know


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

SMS is crapola. its way too light weight. if you look at it the wrong way it will blow away. I thought it was great for the first few months, then it just became a pain. Eco Complete did nothing for me but screw my water parameters, waste of money IMO.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

I haven't had any problems with soil master select and I've used it for over a year. I say just buy some and see how you like it. trail and error... take both the pros and cons. some say it bad, but I like it. there is also just soil master that is a little bigger.


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## spypet (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder if Dielectric negative on SMS and my positive on SMS has something to do with our tank occupants. My plants are small and fine, and I host nano fish and shrimp. Dielectric's fish and plants are much larger. so again, preferences may have more to do with experience and application.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Could be. I wouldn't think Discus would disturb the sediment much, though. Maybe he uses alot of flow? 

I don't spend really anytime measuring water parameters, so I can't say Eco has caused me any problems, but I can't see it doing more than raising GH slightly in the beginning due to Ca leaching a bit. It's really inert and not nutrient rich, at least not in a meaningful way, despite the mfg's claims, and the CEC is really low. It can be a pain to plant in once it settles as all the big clumps settle on the top; it's similar to planting in gravel. Below the surface though the particles are much finer and better suited to root growth. It doesn't cloud the water much when disturbed and looks good in the tank, and you don't have to rinse it.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

yep it could be my angels peck at it and it doesn't cause problems, it is light though. I have root tabs and my swords in it with no problems. I valcum lightly every now and then. all I have to do is put a panty hose over the siphon with a rubber hose... it's a good alterative to flourish soil. I've even grown rotala, and other stem plants in it just fine. 

he/she has got to have a big flow on his tank and have some big reason why they don't like it. plus angels/discus don't like a lot of flow current. 

could he just be trying to push a produce? me I'm saying SMS works and it saves the hobbiest money... which give them more money in there pocket for fish,plants or other aquarium stuff.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

SMS grew my plants just fine once it sucked up some nutrients, im not disputing that. My complaint was its light weight & blows all over & is generally a pain. I did not have "large" plants at the time, it was packed full of stems & dwarf sag. & i also had no bottom dwellers. I did have discus but they did not hang out at the substrate level. They could swim near the surface and a good flap of the tail would move the SMS. I think SMS would be ok for awhile if it were capped with something heavier.

Eco Complete had an endless supply of carbonates that raised my KH extremely. Water changes did not help.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Very few species where KH is of much concern, though. Discus and CRS, but most species aren't affected. So, I don't think dissuading folks from using Eco on that basis is all that fair. I wholeheartedly agree about the SMS, though, as having a messy substrate is a PITA.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

Ekrindul said:


> Very few species where KH is of much concern, though. Discus and CRS, but most species aren't affected. So, I don't think dissuading folks from using Eco on that basis is all that fair. I wholeheartedly agree about the SMS, though, as having a messy substrate is a PITA.


It buffered my water, and the PH kept rising and nothing i could do would bring it back down. Water changes only lowered it for a day.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

organic peat moss, is a panty hose helped me get my ph low when I had discus.. I would say mix it, a bag of eco complete and a back of flourish... I did use flourish at first in my tanks but I noticed it look a lot of it to get a good amount in a 55g.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Why are you concerned about the pH, if you don't mind me asking?


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## akira117 (Dec 8, 2010)

Ok I guess my goal here is looking for an affordable substrate, which SMS is. However, I want to get it right the first time. Any pointer for local deal is great. Thanks


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

akira117 said:


> Ok I guess my goal here is looking for an affordable substrate, which SMS is. However, I want to get it right the first time. Any pointer for local deal is great. Thanks


If you want an inexpensive substrate that does what it advertises go with the el natural approach or MTS. I did, and never looked back.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

Ekrindul said:


> Why are you concerned about the pH, if you don't mind me asking?


Because the PH was so high, my meter would not read it. It went up daily.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

fishyjoe24 said:


> organic peat moss, is a panty hose helped me get my ph low when I had discus.. I would say mix it, a bag of eco complete and a back of flourish... I did use flourish at first in my tanks but I noticed it look a lot of it to get a good amount in a 55g.


I did use peat moss at the time, which helped a little but i wouldve had to fill my canisters full with it for a significant effect, other than brown water.


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## spypet (Jul 27, 2007)

you either had a bad batch, or something else was going on.
I've read forum posts about others complaining of inconsistent
batches of substrate - I've seen it happen with kitty litter too.
I once complained about it to Oil-Dri; they didn't seem to care.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

is THAT what my cat was meowing about this morning?


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Dielectric said:


> Because the PH was so high, my meter would not read it. It went up daily.


Right, but why the concern over the pH? I know that KH is of concern with discus.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

spypet said:


> you either had a bad batch, or something else was going on.
> I've read forum posts about others complaining of inconsistent
> batches of substrate - I've seen it happen with kitty litter too.
> I once complained about it to Oil-Dri; they didn't seem to care.


I complained to Caribsea and they would have sent me new bags but i didnt have my reciept anymore.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

Ekrindul said:


> Right, but why the concern over the pH? I know that KH is of concern with discus.


because it never stayed consistent until it maxed out. it just kept rising and rising.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

vancat said:


> is THAT what my cat was meowing about this morning?


haha... maybe thats why my WIFE'S cats like to go right outside the box on occasion.


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Did you have Texas Holey Rock or other carbonate containing rock in the tank? What is the KH of your tap water? I've heard some areas around here have really high GH/KH right from the tap. I'm not ruling out the substrate, but there are other factors to consider too. Especially if water changes don't help, it would seem that your water is the source. You can test the substrate by putting water in a bucket, testing it, then adding the substrate and test the water a few times over a period of days and see if it goes up.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

Ekrindul said:


> Why are you concerned about the pH, if you don't mind me asking?


me josh or the other guy? me I was concerned because I had some wild caughts that where in low ph, then imported to florida and stay in low ph then sent to me so I wanted to keep them in low ph.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

fishyjoe24 said:


> me josh or the other guy? me I was concerned because I had some wild caughts that where in low ph, then imported to florida and stay in low ph then sent to me so I wanted to keep them in low ph.


Either/or. Natural bodies of water have ph swings of several degrees daily, so I don't understand the concern. I'd say fish don't care about ph, otherwise people with pressurized CO2 would be killing their fish every day. Lakes would be full of floating dead fish every day. We'd all kill our fish everytime we did a water change.

I don't know everything, so I asked hoping to understand what I missing. A kh rise, if dramatic, can affect osmotic pressure, which is bad for fish, but ph can change independent of kh. The city could have pumped CO2 into the water to raise the ph to prevent corrosion, for instance. As MacFan states, there are alot of possible variables. Peat is safe as it's use doesn't affect osmotic pressure, but buffers are generally not as they do affect osmotic pressure through the use of salts. What I cannot find any information on is what mechanism in the fish is put in danger by a particular ph. I suspect that this is another myth, based maybe on indirect correlation with kh.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

Ekrindul said:


> Either/or. Natural bodies of water have ph swings of several degrees daily, so I don't understand the concern. I'd say fish don't care about ph, otherwise people with pressurized CO2 would be killing their fish every day. Lakes would be full of floating dead fish every day. We'd all kill our fish everytime we did a water change.
> 
> I don't know everything, so I asked hoping to understand what I missing. A kh rise, if dramatic, can affect osmotic pressure, which is bad for fish, but ph can change independent of kh. The city could have pumped CO2 into the water to raise the ph to prevent corrosion, for instance. As MacFan states, there are alot of possible variables. Peat is safe as it's use doesn't affect osmotic pressure, but buffers are generally not as they do affect osmotic pressure through the use of salts. What I cannot find any information on is what mechanism in the fish is put in danger by a particular ph. I suspect that this is another myth, based maybe on indirect correlation with kh.


co2 will lower the PH and make the water more corrosive. Natural bodies of water do have gradual daily PH swings, but a large enough swing in a contained enviroment can cause stress which leads to disease. Stable PH is what is important, mine was not stable with eco complete.

I keep fish that live in soft, acidic water, so i want my tanks to replicate that enviroment.


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## OVT (Aug 26, 2010)

For what's worth, here is my personal experience with Flourite. Also, I had to chose the substrate for my new 65G couple of weeks ago and decided to go with ADA's AquaSoil. If you do the calculations, it is comparable in price to other commercial products on the market.


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

MacFan said:


> Did you have Texas Holey Rock or other carbonate containing rock in the tank? What is the KH of your tap water? I've heard some areas around here have really high GH/KH right from the tap. I'm not ruling out the substrate, but there are other factors to consider too. Especially if water changes don't help, it would seem that your water is the source. You can test the substrate by putting water in a bucket, testing it, then adding the substrate and test the water a few times over a period of days and see if it goes up.


Oh, im not from texas if you mean me. i just got caught up in this thread  i was using R/O water. Tested the eco in a glass of water over a week, thats how i figured out it was the eco.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Dielectric said:


> co2 will lower the PH and make the water more corrosive.


I hadn't noticed my error. The city could have pumped CO2 into the water to _lower_ the pH to prevent corrosion, for instance. That's what I should have written. Once the CO2 outgasses, the pH will rise.

Eco has been reported to raise pH as it raises KH, but it will stabilize over time with water changes. I've never heard of the buffers being released at enough of a range that they could do damage to fish, though. Most fish are no where near as sensitive to osmotic stress as discus are, but pH doesn't cause this stress. It's a function of KH. I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to risk such expensive fish to test this, though.

I spent some time today looking for information on how pH effects osmotic stress and couldn't find anything. Reason I looked into this was I couldn't think of any other method of causing a really drastic change in pH other than by means of something that would lead to osmotic stress, ie. salts/buffers. The pH changes due to O2/CO2 in pressurized CO2 tanks as well as in nature are much greater than what some people would lead us to believe is safe, but they never account for why this doesn't kill fish. Maybe unstable pH isn't dangerous to fish unless it's a function of KH?


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