# Unexplained popeye...



## Valley (Feb 28, 2007)

I don't know what is going on. When the first two fish died I assumed it was a fluke, fish die ya know. But when the third died I started getting concerned. I ran water tests and everything came up beautiful ph:6.8 KH6 GH8 (a little higher than normal but well within range) Am0 nitrates about 10ppm. I did a 50% water change anyway, because that's what you do when fish act funny right? Well I went in there today and found 2 more dead and 2 more showing popeye. Not to mention I can't find a few of the cories. One fish has a small white area in front of the dorsal fin but otherwise seems fine. The fish that don't have popeye look healthy and are eating well. It's not just sensitive fish that are affected either. I've lost natives, cories, and 1 rummynose tetra. I do have a UV sterilizer which is why this is so confusing. I even took it out and cleaned it during the water change. The water is crystal clear with great plant growth.
Since the two fish I found dead today were particularly precious to me I went ahead and started antibiotic treatment of the whole tank. I'll be broken hearted if I lose anymore of my favorites. I need some ideas here. Anybody??


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hard to say without a history of the tank. How long has the tank been setup? Are you injecting CO2 and maybe overdosing a little? Do you have driftwood that may be rotting in the substrate producing hydrogen sulfide? 

Since its happening so quickly and some fish have gotten popeye, it does sound like a bacterial disease. The most important question then is: Have you added any new fish within the last 1 to 2 months? 

Doesn't sound like the UV sterilizer is helping that much. The bacteria possibly involved may be so virulent, that your UV sterilization is not enough. Plus the sick fish in the tank are carrying it around and transmitting it directly to the still-healthy fish, thereby bypassing the UV sterilizer. I would turn off the UV sterilizer while you treat the tank with antibiotics, as UV light will degrade the antibiotics.

I'm just speculating here. I hope that the antibiotics work. I would put my money on them right now. 

There's nothing worse for an aquarium hobbyist than sick and dying fish. Good luck!


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## Valley (Feb 28, 2007)

Sorry I should have included that information. It is a 55g that has been set up for about 18 months now. It is so densely planted it's impossible to see to the back of that short 13" floor. The water test readings have been stable nearly since setup. 
I suspected H2S, (lost more bottom dwellers than top) so during the water change I poked and prodded and moved the gravel and no stinky bubbles could be found. I do have driftwood but it has had very little softening let alone rotting. It also barely touches the substrate (<2" square) and has very large rooted plants (swords, stems, crypts, etc) tucked under the edge to help keep it from causing a problem. There are also a few hundred MTS snails which seem to do a good job for me. I have a small DIY CO2 (plants were suffering without), but have never noticed even my lizard loaches (naturally found in high oxygen water) going to the surface. Even at night. And I have been watching that very closely. 
I have added fish *but* I found the first 2 dead fish while I was adding the new fish. I thought it was a random occurrence or I wouldn't have added the poor things. Aside from 1 dead and 1 ill cory the fish I added that day have been untouched. Including the otos which I have found to be very fragile in the past.

New symptom: The cory I found yesterday with popeye: I noticed that he, and only he, was breathing rapidly. No other fish in the tank is breathing abnormally. And this morning he looks decidedly white all over. But his eye looks a little better. Clearer. I didn't have time to wait for him to turn to check the other eye though. No one else was showing any symptoms, which was a relief. 

I will unplug the sterilizer when I get home. I am planning an upgrade soon anyway, I think I'll go ahead and order that today. And move this one into the much smaller TB tank. 
I am using maracyn plus (Sulfadimidine and trimethoprin) it is in my fishy emergency kit as I have had it treat things (for 1/10 the price) that maracyn or maracyn 2 would not touch. So I'm hoping whatever is causing me this problem will be wiped out. 

I should have thought of this before, but I was more worried about the fish... Do antibiotics have any negative effects on plants? If so there's a few I'd like to pull out and keep safe. I've been blessed and not had to treat for anything in a planted tank in the ?4 years? I've had them. Guess it was just my turn. 

Diana I can't thank you enough for taking the time to put my mind at ease. I know it's silly but I was in tears when I found those 2 fish yesterday. Emotional decisions are not always the best decisions. So it's nice to be able to confirm or correct those decisions with people who's logic and reason I respect.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Antibiotics won't hurt the plants directly. However, you could get unexpected secondary effects by killing substrate bacteria and filter bacteria. Try to keep the tank well-aerated and yourself alert!

I would also add the antibiotics in the evening, as ordinary light de-activates some of them (e.g., erythromycin). That way, you get the most bang for your antibiotic buck. If you get lucky by choosing antibiotics to which a bacteria pathogen is sensitive, the antibiotics should kill bacteria very quickly. In the lab, we found that an "antibiotic cocktail" started killing bacteria within minutes and decimated them in a few hours.

Finally, don't let the apparent good health of your new fish mislead you. Many times new fish will be carrying _potential_ pathogens. The new fish are immune to what they're carrying and not sick. But what they're carrying can hurt your established fish, because they don't have that same immunity. It takes about 2-4 weeks for fish to develop antibodies.

A lot of disease isn't due to some monster pathogen. It's just a new strain of ordinary environmental bacteria that a fish doesn't _yet_ have immunity to. That's why adding new fish to an established tank is so risky.

I would look over my article on mycobacteriosis. The information on fish immunity, Sentinel fish, quarantining fish, etc applies to other bacterial diseases. The article can be downloaded free from by book's website.

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm

The fact that you have a UV sterilizer suggests that you are concientious about your fish. That's nice.


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## Valley (Feb 28, 2007)

I finally figured it out as I was walking out the door to go to the beach. It was a quarantine failure from few months ago popping up AGAIN. This is why I skipped it this time, pure frustration. The last time I added fish I had them in QT for 3 weeks. After 3 weeks they looked healthy so I put them in the big tank. The day after I put them in they came down with columnaris disease. I added the sterilizer at this point. Removed all fish showing symptoms and treated. I lost 5 fish, 3 of them were favorites.  But I didn't have any more show signs so I thought it was gone... The next time I was back in that store the girl clued me in that all of the fish from that batch had died. I checked in the tanks they were in and sure enough, columnaris was showing on several of the fish. 

While packing and looking worriedly at my poor fish I noticed that some of the feeder guppies I had just added were showing the tale tale splotches. At least I had already started treating and with meds that have proven against columnaris disease in the past for me. I went to the beach and enjoyed myself. I came home and it looks like everyone is still there. It's kind of hard to tell..... But I saw one of the guppies that was showing signs, so I'm hopeful.
I do have a BIG outbreak of staghorn now.  I'm not sure if it's the meds or a nutrient thing. I just haven't had time to check. 

I have looked over that link you posted in the past and it has helped me greatly with another incident in another tank. It's full of great information and a wonderful resource. Especially considering the prevalence of Mycobacterium in aquarium fish. *shudder* it's just scary. 
Not to totally derail here... But while I was poking around the internet about this I found mention of possible treatment of fish with TB... I know this isn't really practical, but do you know if it is possible? It appeared there had been no real research on it, only theory based on treatment in other animals and maybe a few loose attempts at experimentation. 

Thank you again for your feedback on this. It is nice to have a second opinion.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Valley said:


> But while I was poking around the internet about this I found mention of possible treatment of fish with TB... I know this isn't really practical, but do you know if it is possible?


Always possible, but highly unlikely. Environmental mycobacteria, once walled off in granulomas within the fish's tissue, are incredibly resistant to antibiotics, more so than the mycobacteria that cause human tuberculosis.

Some ordinary antibiotics can block transmission from fish that are infected to uninfected fish. Antibiotics can kill "naked" mycobacteria suspended in the water. However, once mycobacteria are holed up in the fish's tissue in granulomas, they're pretty much "home-free". Antibiotics won't kill them.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I once got popeye in my tank with my angel fish because I was changing the water 24/7 on my automatic water change system. Apparently trapped gasses in the water can come out of solution in fish and cause a mini case of the "bends" which pushes the eyes out.

I think my case is pretty rare, but food for thought I suppose.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Zapins, it is not that rare. I cannot do direct water changes in the winter because of dissolved gas.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm... That's interesting. I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone else except me! Good to know I'm not the only one haha.


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