# suggestions?



## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/35824-75g-re-scape-fingers-crossed-2.html

Anyone have some helpful advice? Info can be found in the thread that is linked above. I'm just to frustrated to type up a whole new post explaining whats going on.....

I can supply any other needed info if you think it is going to help.... just let me know.

Blah! 

~Matt


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I just started a tank with aquasoil, powersand and tourmalineBC as well and everything I put in there melted. I thought it was because I kinda overdosed on excel but since you are having the same problem it might be what we have in common, AS/PS/TBC. 
I left it as it was for the first week and just sat there letting everything melt away in hopes it would grow back and with the overdose of excel I did a water change the next day so it should have diluted it? Anyways, the first week I did not dose anything at all with just 3.6wpg on for 8hrs and most of the plants were from a previous tank that was also high light but those plants went from inert sand to eco to this. 
Now I am at the end of week two and this week I dosed EI along with some seachem per instructions chart and did no testing and all the plants that melted have started to grow back really well! 
Right now I have 96w over my 30g and a 2-3hr noon burst of another 96w totaling 192w and the plant growth is really nice and filling back in from nothing.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I can only hope to expierence the same thing..... Though I did not dose any excel, and have No known reason for the plants to melt on me.

Other things that worry me, there is clear new growth on Anubias and crypts that is coming in yellow and slightly deformed, more so patches on older Anubias leaves turning yellow and then dieing, leaving odd shaped holes in the leaves.

*Sigh* Guess i'll just keep up on the updated, heavier dosing and hope things start to become more healthy.....


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I think the holes and yellowness is actually a diffiency of some sort. I remember reading of another instance where AS swap causes some melting.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Anyone? anything at all??


I'm pretty much at the end of the road here.... I have tried pretty much everything that I know, nothing seems to improve the conditions in any of my tanks... High tech, low tech, no tech..... they ALL have stunted plants that wont grow.....

I'm game for anything right now, its that or get out of the hobby. I really see no point in going on with this with the frustration, unhealthy plants that dont grow really don't make this hobby all to enjoyable!


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Planted tanks (or gardening, for that matter) are NOT for the faint of heart! You need a good ol' fashion dose of STUBBORNESS!

Don't let some stumbling blocks along the road get you down, we've all experienced them; and frankly, I find it one of the things that keep this (and my flower gardening) interesting! There's always variables to account for when dealing with nature - a dynamic, interconnected, complex system.

The start up stages often have a few hiccups in the path; but that's true with almost any new endeavor. It is also true with vegetable gardens; new transplants take more care and effort in the spring when everything is first planted. It just takes a little knowledge and effort to get past the break in phases. When you get your planted tank stablized it will be much easier to maintain.

Mostly plants need just a few basic things to thrive: light - their food, fertilizers [macros, micros and for underwater aquatics a CO2 supply] - their 'vitamins', clean water, something to grow in or ancor onto - a substrate/driftwood, and favorable temperatures.

Choose what kind of system you want to run (high light/ low light). Select the plants which do best in those parameters. Then supply the other needs proportionatly in a balanced, regular fashion. Plants do best with regularity and if they experience drastic changes (new parameters, different substrates) growth can stall, or even die back. But if there's one thing I've learned over the years - it's that those plants *WANT* to live and grow; if we can give them most of what they need, the plants instinct for survival will do the rest.

PS. One other thing; more is not always better. ie, don't overdose ferts, don't run the lights for too many hours.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

I really appriciate all of the kind words....


I wish this was a case of a new guy being slightly frustrated with the start up of a brand new tank for the very first time.

However, I have been around... planted tanks arn't new to me and I have a good understanding of the needs of plants... and used to be able to grow them successfully. However some where along the line my methods have failed me and all my tanks have gone from decent/good growth.... to crap.

The old ways I once used that gave me decent plants don't seem to work, And I have been through things over and over again. 

I clearly understand the basic needs of plants, provide conditions that *should* warrent good growth.... and I get nothing... 



Basically that thread gives most of the information about the one tank I would really like to turn things around in...... Gives fert info, water params. lighting 4 x 65 PC 10 hours a day..... temp is 84F, CO2 is pressurized and plentyfull.... As described in the post.... most all of my plants just melted away.... stems that did not melt, won't grow..... and Even more so, Anubias and crypts are showing what appeare to be deficiency syptoms (as described in other thread) HOW???? water colum is being covered, substrate is supposed to be some sort of godly creation...... I just don't understand how slow growing plants like that could possibly be showing me what they are after such a short time...... 

I am nearly 99% positive I am not mixing ferts up when dosing.... I can not figure out for the life of me why I can no longer grow plants.... I mean hygro polysperma stunts in my tanks..... even in the worst conditions in the past this plant has grown like the weed that it is.... but now, nothing...... its driving me insane, There has got to be something stupid that I am missing out of frustration...... i just cant come up with anything.....


Again I appriciate the kind words... but this is a bit more in depth than just not understanding though....


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

It's just so sad to hear your tone of frustration and desperation! It almost breaks my heart when you say you're ready to throw in the towel, just wish I could help more! 

If, as you say you think the problem is not with you're dosing; then I'd try two other things. One, step it back by reducing the photo period to 8 hours, and especially turn the temp down to 75F - most plants do much better at 75F than 84F. Then two, I'd supplement with EXCEL, I've found it can really help in the start up in a new tank while plants are adjusting. In a 75 gallon tank I'd use 15 or even 20 ml daily.

"We're pulling for you."


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

MrSanders, an E2217 is not even large enough filter for a 75g, add a powerhead for a week or so and I bet things will turn around rather fast, you need more circulation/flow in the tank and a larger biomedia.
Add another filter, an XP3 or another large Eheim, err something.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

If I understood correctly, you have similar problems in all your planted tanks?:



> Again let me add I set up a 1g Nano tank with AS.... Its been running for probably a good month and a half. Weither I dose or not.... I have seen no growth out of this tank either.... Plants either melt away, or they simply sit there and do not grow.... Anyone have ideas?
> 
> Other possible points of Intrest from water quality report since lately even in non CO2 tanks my plants have stopped growing, became stunted, and other wise have failed to thrive...


The only common element here seems to be your tap water (you are using a good dechlorinator aren't you?). Why don't you set up a tank using reconstituted RO water and see if there is a difference? Perhaps on a small tank like your nano... it would be easy to purchase that volume of RO water, add KH and GH and run with that and see what happens.

A 2217 should be fine, it's rated for 600l tanks, plus you have the powerheads for added circulation.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Laith's post makes the most sense to me and is what I have been thinking of trying out. The nano is a simple 1 gallon.... can easily use RO from LFS, or Distilled.

On the 75g I have two power heads in addition to the 2217, there is circulation and I really don't think thats the problem, because as noted by Laith I have had the same syptoms in ALL of my tanks.... most of which are low tech set-ups that really should be fairly easy to keep up with demand of nutrients.


Amaquel dechlorinator is used in all my others thanks, On the 75g I use an inline carbon drinking filter. So that is pretty much covered I think.

I might as well set the nano up with reconstituted water and see how it goes. I have seachem Eq, and also MgSO4, CaSO4 along with baking soda for KH.... any advice on levels I should shoot for? possibly the same amount of Mg and Ca in the tap? I also I use Excel in the Nano, and have been adding 12ppm N and about 4ppm P once a week at the water change, along with 2ml of traces.... 

For the sake of seeing improvment It might be a better idea to dose several times a week.... but that should be more than enough nutrients to cover an excel tank right?

I would love more than anything to figure this out, if its some off the wall crap with my tap water... Im really not into using RO, but I could just get rid of most of my tanks and run the 75g which I am really dieing to have beautiful like it has been in the past....

Something has to give at some point.... I hope....


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

If I remember rightly, your tap water was pretty soft, wasn't it? I use RO water with GH 3 and KH 0 and it does fine.

Personally, I would cut all the other additions to the tank water for now. They're just more variables that you want to eliminate at this stage IMO.

I wouldn't go back to tap water now.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm not sure I follow you Ed, cut all additions to tank water as in? stop dosing everything all togeather?



> I wouldn't go back to tap water now.


 Wasn't going back to it... I never left it?

Im sorry, your post just didnt come across all to clear is all....


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Sorry, that really wasn't too clear a post was it?

I meant that I'm using RO and I wouldn't go back to tap water now.

For a while I would simply remineralise the RO water and add nothing else. Good, clean, pure water. And that's all.
If your plants are melting rather than growing, what's using the fertiliser you're adding anyway? And the melting plants breaking down will be adding nutrients to the water column as well.
Once they start growing again (or maybe even wait until they start to show signs of nutrient deficiencies) then you can phase in the ferts.

Others may well disagree, but that's what I'd do until the situation had stabilised.


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## Wö£fëñxXx1 (Feb 10, 2005)

I am going to cut to the chase, so don't think I am being mean, I am not.
It appears you are aimlessly wondering around when it comes to planted tanks. Gotta think!

That is pretty bad if you can't grow hygro... hehe
What is the point of using RO if you are going to add a bunch of junk back to it? just use tap water and save yourself the grief, cause it isn't working for you 
Hygro does not need RO water to grow, it will grow better in tap water, know your plants! 

AS is not magic, first you must know how to grow plants, crawl before you can walk.
Go back to the basics, NPK TE C02 and light.
I see a number of things you are doing wrong, to much light without knowing how to use C02, 4x65x10hrs?? thats to much for you at this time, 2x65x8hrs
Make sure C02 is good, and you need good circulation, a 2217 is "rated" with an empty canister and an empty tank, and the more plant mass, the less the flow, at this point don't "assume" anything when it comes to your trouble, find out! add some current.
Do you have proper media in the filter? that also plays a very important roll.
Do you have plenty of plant mass, err do you even have any plants?
Got a picture of the tank??

A starting point for your dosing, it works just fine!!
50%H20 change-weekly
3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
15ml Trace 3x a week
The rest is light, C02, proper filtration is vital, and *what you know!
*
Did you add any mulm or good bacteria to the tank when you set it up?

Show us a picture of the tank.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Ah, yes the root of the problem.... I actually have learned nothing the past few years of doing this, and am actually just a dumb a**....


Thanks but no thanks, I would have went to the "report" if I wanted to hear something like that


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Peace on earth!*

I can feel your frustration Mr Sanders. I think, Wö£fëñxXx only want to help here. Going back to the basics is not downgrading your experience. In fact smart people will do that to reset an experience and probably will learn a great deal from it.

I personally believe that lot of people do exactly that mistake (and I'm one of them) is to play god with our tanks and obviously we are far to be able to control anything as complicate, as we can see with the problem you and lot of other experience users deal with right now.

I can give you a lot of things in my tank that do not work as expected.

When we juggle with to much ppm of this and that we forget to look at the basic stuff, there problem arise.

Forever we will need to go to the ABC of things if we want to learn.
Same thing with life, sometimes we need to go back to base to know what we have to do.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

I understand that... It is just VERY frustrating because these are the same syptoms I have had in the tank before doing a total tear down for the new substrate. Right before the Tear down, thats what I was doing. 

I got burnt out and tired of racking my brain trying this, and trying that. I had increadble amounts of CO2 dissloved in the tank, and though Wö£fëñxXx will tell you I don't know how to use CO2... and I was doing things wrong. I disagree, I have and always have had extra power heads in the tank to get the water circulated properly and get rid of dead areas in the current. During this time for many months I was more or less doseing via EI, with excess of all macros and traces..... Growth was there, but less than desirable. I always had what appears like an Iron deficiency... though no amount of extra Iron would improve it. I was adding if I recall almost 3ppm of the iron chleate that greg sells per week in addition to heafty trace dosing. I also has issues with old growth, dead areas in older leafs followed by the leaves falling off. This sometimes started as pinholes, but often was just large patches of the leaf dieing. I was adding more K than nitrate during those times also.

And back I am to square one.... im dosing NPK daily in excess, along with traces daily around 7ml or so. Growth is slow to not there at all. New leaves on anubias and crypts show that same pale, yellow growth.... and older leaves of anubias are devloping large patches that yellow and then die out completely. I am dosing heavy and have little to no plant growth, HOW could plants possibly be showing nutrient deficiencies????

And this is what makes me wonder what the hell is going on with my tanks. It just seems out of place... something major is wrong, but the basics all look to be in order.

?????


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Hum!*

You right with this dosing, deficiency should not be there but induce deficiency by excess of some nutrients are possible.
Yellow leaves look like iron...

Here is a list of induce deficiency, maybe that can help

excess amoniac / amonium = potassium and iron
excess potassium = calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency
excess sulphur = molybdene deficiency
excess Iron= manganese deficiency
excess cooper = iron deficiency
excess magnesium = iron deficiency
excess nitrogen = potassium deficiency
excess phosphorus = potassium deficiency
excess magnesium, potassium or sodium may = calcium deficiency

excess boron marginal and intervenal scorch which may be confused with potassium or magnesium deficiencies

sodium and chlorine may cause marginal leaf scorch similar to potassium deficiency

excesses of chromium, cobalt, copper, manganese, nickel or zinc may induce iron deficiency

I just want to post something from Kekon that have success with lower concentrations


> water params: plants health:
> 
> Ca = 10,
> Mg = 4,
> ...


This is very light concentration, compared to most of the system out there.
I'm trying this, right now, and so far having good result.

One thing I find important is the ability of plant to store nutrient. I think that they will grow very good with one dosing regimen but when they are saturated in one or the other nutrient, problem will arise and a new dosing regimen have to be defined.

The concentration Kekon used resemble what Sears and Collins brought some time ago with their PMDD system and it seem to work...


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

thanks for the Info Glouglou, Just curious what source did all of those syptoms come from?

Thanks


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Sources*

These are a compilation of notes on the internet. Most of them specialized web sites.


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## Dragonkiller (Dec 19, 2006)

MrSanders,
I was reading both threads and noticed that one poster mentioned your high temp setting. Is it really in the mid 80F range or is it a typo? Mid 80F would be pretty high.

What fish do you hold in these tanks? Any issues with them?
Do you have at least algea or is the algea also not growing?

Can it be that there is a contamination in the water? new copper pipes, buckets with cleaners? I had issues once because I thought my cold water faucet is not connected to the water softener. Well, it was and it took a while to recover.

To my opinion the general items are covered. More or less fertilizer would not cause the melting and you tried it both ways. (Others might have different opinions). Seems also you have enough light. I had problems with stems not having enough light, but the plants lost the lower leaves and did not melt.

It must be something different. Even having tanks for years I am not an expert as others in the plant & fertilizer field. But I have some problem solving experience.

Temp? Fish? Algea? What happens with the water from the faucet to the tanks?

Best luck with the tanks!


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Dragonkiller, I get these syptoms in all tanks, only one is heated to 84 degrees because of Discus. Other rang from low to mid 70's. Some of the tanks get mild algae but not much. 
The 75g im really trying to work on has NO algae... And from the pipes through the house there is nothing being introduced to the water. No house water softner... I dont use buckets for WC, i use a python.... its never been used for anything else. its an older house, copper pipes are not new, nor do I think its a copper problem I have though about that and tested for it with no dectable reading.

i dont really have a clue as what to do.... Stem plants stopped melting and i have gotten a few established. Though they are living they arnt growing much... what new growth I do get isnt robust and healthy....

dunno what to do? pretty much just gave up for now... im just letting it do its thing, if it improves I will continue with it.... if it always stays the way it is.... i will end up thinning out most of my tanks and keeping one or two small, maintence free set ups because I do enjoy it.... but its not worth the frustration and lack of success really.... Plus i could sell all that stuff for a decent chunk of change that can always be used else where...


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

You decided not to test a setup with reconstituted RO water? 

I still think that this may be a good idea... at least it would eliminate or confirm whether or not something in your tap water is causing the problems...


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

oh.... guess i never really said anything much about that. I did do a 90% water change on my 1 gallon nano with RO. I used seachem Eq to bring back some hardness.... Thus far I havn't seen any real improvement...

Either way I go... dumping tons of ferts via EI, or try the light side.... I just dont do well. I suppose I just wasnt ment to be in this hobby? Oh well...


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