# Planted 40g, request for comments



## modernhamlet (Aug 9, 2005)

I've been reading and thinking and planning and reading some more for the last couple of months... pretty much absorbing all of the planted tank material available here and elsewhere on the net. With a recent move finally finished, I'm just about ready to dive into the planted tank pool. Even the space is picked out in the dining room, between a set of bookshelves.

So I'm seeking criticism, advice and suggestions on my plan, which you can find below. I'm not filthy rich, so DIY projects with a high benefit/effort ratio and inexpensive alternatives would be great, but I'm going to do this right the first time and it's going to look classy. Any and all products, methods, and procedures to look for OR avoid would be appreciated.

Without further adeiu, here's the plan. Thanks in advance for your comments on any or all of my ideas.

40 gallon breeder (36”x18”x16”)

Lighting:
36” 4x39W T5 light fixture on raised supports

Filtration:
Filstar XP2 canister filter

Heater:
Hydor inline 200w heater

CO2:
Pressurized CO2 System into filter line

Substrate:
Peat/Vermiculite/fine dark gravel substrate

Ferts:
Estimative Index method using Self mixed KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and Seachem Flourish (or equivalent microfert product)

Plants:
Glossostigma elatinoides
Echinodorus tenellus
Blyxa japonica
Lysimachia nummularia
Microsorum pteropus
Didiplis diandra

Fish:
3 Apistogramma (undecided species)
10 Hemigrammus bleheri
6 Inpaichthys kerri
5 Otocinclus vittatus

Hardscape:
Driftwood and/or rocks

Aquascape:
Nature aquarium influenced triangular layout inspired by the seacoast of the Pacific Northwest US.


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Sounds like a good plan so far though I would add a DIY CO2 reactor on the output of your filter. There are several inline reactor links on this site and most are pretty inexpensive to make. Just do a search for CO2 reactor and choose one you like. 

With the exception of the Glosso and D. diandra, most of your plants are slow growing. While slow growers can do fine I thnk you may be better off to add some faster growers initially and then replace them with the plants on your list once things begin to grow well. 

As far as the substrate, I would use 100% pre-soaked Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss and forego the vermiculite. Add some mulm to the peat and cover with a dark gravel of your choice. 

You will also want to make sure your rocks aren't carbonate based. Once you select your rock work, try adding a drop of muriatic acid on them. If they fizz or bubble they will not be suitable for your tank. I spent an hour or so picking up and arranging some rocks I found only to find out they were carbonate based and would end up raising the KH in my tank.


----------



## modernhamlet (Aug 9, 2005)

Thanks for the advice, MatPat. Much appreciated.

Regarding the CO2 reactor, why is it better to place the CO2 input on the outflow line of the canister with a reactor? Wouldn't it be better to place it on the inflow line and let the canister do the reacting for you? Wouldn't the flow decrease be greater by placing on the outflow as well? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question! This is all new to me... my mbuna tank doesn't require much worry in the CO2 (or even plant!) department. :-$ 

I will definitely plant a bunch of stem plants to keep things under control while the other plants get established. Hygrophila polysperma grew like a weed for me in my first (<1 wpg) planted tank, so I'll probably use it.

Won't that much peat cause coloration, pH, or just plain mess issues? I always heard to just "dust" the bottom of the tank with peat.

Thanks again for your help and patience!


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

You are correct about the peat and a dusting is all that is needed. I say to use 100% peat because a lot of peat on the markeet today has fertilizers or other things like perlite or vermiculite added. 

The purpose of the reactor is to do the dissolving so the filter doesn't have to. By all means, try a DIY Reactor on both intake and output and see which one works better for you! Your results may be different than mine!

I have used a reactor on the inlet of my filter before and it was no where near as effective on the intake as it was on the output. My filter is a Magnum 350 full of Bio Balls so it may have had too much flow for the reactor. 

On the intake, I used to get a lot of tiny undissolved CO2 bubbles out of the filter output. Since the reactor was moved to the filter output, I have yet to see any bubbles from the filter output. It does decrease flow when placed on the output. If you are concerned you can always step up to an XP3 for the extra flow. 

If you think H. polysperma grew like a weed before, just wait until you get it under those lights with CO2. You will need a good pair of pruining scissors or a sharp set of fingernails


----------



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

You only need a very small amount of peat in the substrate, like a handfull or two spread out on the bottom. Peat does not really supply any nutrients to the substrate. AS it decomposes it releases acid that can help break down minerals for the plants, and it makes the substrate more acidic which is beneficial for some plants. It also has fairly good CEC, cation exchange capacity which in simple terms means it can absorb nutrients and hold them. When you have too much peat decaying in the substrate, it cuts off oxygen and turns the substrat sour. It will smell like rotten eggs and the plant roots will turn black. Ultimately it will kill the plants.

Vermiculite is really only used for CEC and to prevent soil, or in this case the substrate from compacting. Using peat and vermiculite you still have no source for iron and other minerals or NPK, (nitrogen, phosphate, potassium) If you use soil like in a Diana Walstad type of approach, these nutrients are provided, but soil substrates can lead to a muddy nightmare. What most people use is some sort of a clay gravel or laterite substrate that provides iron and other minerals as well as CEC, perhaps with a little peat.

Vermiculite also floats in water. I knew a gentleman a few years ago who was big on Vermiculite and he would Kneed it in a bucket of water to force all the air out of it so it would sink. I do not know if this changed its CEC capability or not.

You also do not want a real fine gravel because it will compact like sand does. A compacted substrate, particularly if it has organic material in it like peat, can cause severe problems.


----------



## modernhamlet (Aug 9, 2005)

Thanks for your response, Robert.

I was hoping to save a bit on the substrate, but it looks like that might not be the best idea. My understanding of your suggestions and everything I've read would lead me to consider laterite, flourite, or eco-complete. Would these substrates be best on their own (atop a small amount of peat) or below a layer of inert 3-4mm gravel? Is there any reason to choose one over another? I've used fluorite in the past and liked it, but would prefer a surface substrate that is more a more uniform color and less jagged.

Thanks again everyone for the advice...


----------



## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I am sure others will chime in here..there is also several discussions about substrates in the substrate forum. Some people have mixed Flourite and Eco complete with regular gravel to stretch it out. Seachem recommends keeping at least 50% Flourite.

Another alternative I like which you will also read about in the substrate forum is Schultz Clay conditioner, 40 pound bags sold in garden centers at places like Walmart and Home depot. Clay gravel cheap.


----------



## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

modernhamlet said:


> Fish:
> 3 Apistogramma (undecided species)
> 
> Aquascape:
> Nature aquarium influenced triangular layout inspired by the seacoast of the Pacific Northwest US.


I really like the Apistogrammas. They're really neet.

Your idea for the Aquascape sounds great. Where did you get this inspiration?

Would a 2" taller 50g be a better choice?


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

modernhamlet,

1) If you're using an uncoated gravel it's not necessary to use much peat and/or vermiculite. In fact, I wouldn't use vermiculite at all, peat will provide all of the small porous area needed by your plants. If you can afford it, Eco-Complete would fit both your dark grained substrate requirement as well as be of high benefit to your plants. 

2) I agree with MatPat about placing CO2 reactors on the output side. I had mine on the intake side, thinking it would increase dissolution, but all it did was get plant material stuck all over the bio-ball media which reduced the reactor's work ability. Eventually I started getting small undissolved bubbles building up in my filter which caused a stream of bubbles to come out of the filter as well as a loss of efficiency. Once I moved the reactor to the output side it and the filter worked more efficiently and with less noise. What you don't want to do is cut the return line as short as possible. Give it some slack to allow the bubbles as much contact time prior to exit as possible.

Other than those two things and adding an AGA membership your plan looks great.

Regards,
Phil


----------



## modernhamlet (Aug 9, 2005)

Thanks again everyone for the informative replies!

I think I'm going to take advantage of the EcoComplete deal at AquariumPlant. Even with shipping, it's a steal... well, it's still expensive, but what the heck. It's what I really want.

CO2 on the outflow. Check. I got a 5lb. tank today and will be ordering a TOP GUN regulator and a Milwaukee ph controller in the next couple of days. How long should I expect a full tank to last?

Add AGA membership to list. Check.

40g breeder vs. 50g: Honestly, if I can find one or the other used with a stand, I'll take it. This is where I'm really trying to save money. The girlfriend is dubious about another tank, so I'm trying to keep it "small". But I doubt she would know the difference. 36x18 is key though.

The idea for the aquascape came to me in one of the hundreds of hours I've spent thinking about this tank and the elements I want to include in it. I wish I could remember where I saw it now, but there was a link here or somewhere else to a site that showed an aquascape based on a really interesting geological area in China. The aquascaper really captured the feeling of that place in an original way. It got me thinking about other places that would look interesting. The idea's already evolving into something a little more abstract using wood and plants to create the idea of a rocky coastline like one sees in images of Oregon or Big Sur, CA.

Anyway... that's it for now. I'll keep accumlating the many items I need for this and hopefully get it all together into something not too embarassing by the IALC contest deadline.

Thanks again!


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Well heck come out to CA, the weather's better.
Then you can look all ya want. Marin from Mt tam looking down over the Pt Reyes seashore from 2500ft is not a bad place to spend some time.

EC is fairly decent, and nice and dark, no rinsing.
So it'll fit the bill well for you.

I've suggest making the one tank real nice to make the GF happier, than 2 hodge podge tanks........

I believe there is a local plant group or the local aquarium society has a very strong plant group there in Boston.
I'd definitely suggest you go and see a meeting etc. You will meet and get to see folsk that are doing planted tanks for many years, decades in some cases there. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## modernhamlet (Aug 9, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Well heck come out to CA, the weather's better.
> Then you can look all ya want. Marin from Mt tam looking down over the Pt Reyes seashore from 2500ft is not a bad place to spend some time.


I will. 2 years. Seriously. That's the current plan, with the Bay area at the top of the list. The Boston winters and cynicism wear on you after awhile! And I know in my heart that the West Coast is where I belong...



> ...I believe there is a local plant group or the local aquarium society has a very strong plant group there in Boston. I'd definitely suggest you go and see a meeting etc. You will meet and get to see folsk that are doing planted tanks for many years, decades in some cases there.


I assume you mean the Boston Aquarium Society? I was planning to attend their monthly meeting on the 19th, next Monday. Having seen some of the names and tanks associated with the BAS, it amazes me how lousy the retail stores are in the Boston area. It's been frustrating to say the least. Thank goodness for the internet (and hopefully the BAS). Anyway, I'm really looking forward to making some good contacts there for plants, fish, and aquascaping. I'm sure I'll learn a lot.

peace,
tom wilhelm


----------

