# PSS-Classic Recipe Q



## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

I got a PMDD kit from a local suplier and it containg 1 package of Calcium Nitrate (CaNO3).

The calculator does not include this in the equation and I was told that I, indeed, need it.

So 2 Qs:
Do I really need it?
If so what is the mix ratio for a 500 ml bottle and dosage for a 50 gal tank?

Thanks in advance


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

Are you sure of your system or is this a typo referring to PPS


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry Typo 

PPS-Classic Solutions Recipe


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I believe that someone took your nickle.









PPS-Classic requires KH2PO4 which isn't included in PMDD. Also, PPS-Classic doesn't require CaNO3.

PMDD is 1 part each of KNO3, K2SO4, MgSO4 • 7H2O and Plantex CSM+B.

PPS-Classic info: http://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/pps-classic


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

CaNO3 is not needed at all?

maybe a different recipie that PPS doesn't use?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I don't think that CaNO3 is used in any of them. You may be able to substitute it for KNO3. Just figure out the mole differences and go from there.

Another problem, PPS uses a separate trace solution (like CSM+B) whereas PMDD has it mixed in already. You can't combine KH2PO4 or any other phosphate with an iron containing product. They will combine and the plants can't use them readily.

There is a Sub-Forum called PPS Analysis and Feedback where you can check it out. You may be able to figure out a way to add other ferts to your PMDD.

Another solution which is easier. You could use your PMDD as it is plus make a separate dosing solution for phosphate using KH2PO4, K2HPO4, Fleet Enema, Flourish Phosphorus, etc. As mentioned, you can't dose or mix PMDD with this phosphate solution.

IMO, you just simply bought the wrong products for PPS.


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Everything on the PPS list I have and was bagged seperately (except for the trace elements which was a combo bag).

I mixed the seperate bottle according to the PPS instructions and found this unused bag of Calcium Nitrate.

As far as the PPS schedule goes, I think I am ready to go. Just wondering what to do with the CaNO3?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Heard of the stuff, haven't played with it. Time to do a little reading...

It looks like CaNO3 isn't the real name; it's Ca(NO3)2, and that can be found as anhydrous or as a tetrahydrate; Ca(NO3).4H2O.

The solubility looks high enough to mix stock solutions with. I'm guessing if you're dosing everything from one bottle in RO or any water lacking/low on calcium, then this stuff is actually kind of handy. By weight, Ca(NO3)2 is almost exactly 1:1 Ca:NO3 (regardless of hydration). Incidentally, that's pretty much perfect as far as ratios to maintain non-limiting conditions without wasting ferts.


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Hrumm ... not using RO (using ground water / well water)

I think I'll have to call the supplier on Mon so see what's up with this (dosage wise)


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Be careful: a few years ago a popular supplier sourced Calcium Nitrate that turned out to be Calcium Ammonium Nitrate. This is an honest mistake that anyone could make, but a significant difference in that there is NH4 input (unless controlled very bad for fish, leads to algae).

Elsewise, for PPS or any method you just want to break your input from these sources into their parts. While Ca(NO3)2 is a pretty great ratio when looking at target levels, it can be better on the mind to just use one of the _many_ Ca and NO3 sources that definitely do not have ammonia/ammonium and have tons of experience and calculators to support them.

(I'm not suggesting you don't try something new. I'm suggesting be careful with this one and some stuff unless you're sure the supplier is sure it is Ca(NO3)2. Got a NH3/4 test kit?)

HTH


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

no test kit but I can get one ... will take a couple days.

I e-mailed Chuck and RTR and am awaiting their reply.

I haven't touched the stuff (chem is not my forte) until I hear from them.
The package is label has "Dutch Nutient Formula" across the pack. Labeled #1 (first dry fert of a series of six setperate packs)

Nitrogen 15%
Calcium 19%


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ignore what I said about Ca:NO3 ratios earlier, Ca is way less than NO3 in that formula.

NO3 = ~62g/mol *2 = 124
Ca = ~40g/mol

If it were pure Ca(NO3)2 then there'd be about 1/3 as much Ca as NO3 by weight. This may make it more useful to you; adding 24ppm NO3 would mean only about 8ppm Ca.

I don't think it's CaH4N4O9. On your label the weight of Ca is greater than N, which is not the case for this compound. The CAS# info for fertilizer grade Ca(NO3)2 on the other hand is 15.5% NO3 and 19% Ca.

If you have an accurate scale, some DI H2O and either a GH or NO3 test kit around I could work some numbers for you so that you could have a sure test. It would be a lot more work than the NH4 test kit though.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm pretty sure J-P has Calcium Ammonium Nitrate, actually, and that the CAS info you're using for fertilizer grade Calcium Nitrate is actually Calcium Ammonium Nitrate, P.

Calcium Ammonium Nitrate -- 5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O -- is ~18.5% Ca and ~15.5% N. While most of that N (>90%) is NO3, this is bad because of the remaining amount as NH4. This is pretty much J-P's label.

Calcium Nitrate -- Ca(NO3)2.4H2O -- is ~17% Ca and ~11.9% N. This is good because of the nice ratio between the two.

I just did a quick google search right now and the first hit for fertilizer grade Calcium Nitrate is this Wikipedia article which implicitly states "Fertilizer grade" contains Urea, btw; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitrate

Any word, J-P? I'd put it aside. If really tempted there's been some discussion about urea in our planted tanks. Weigh both sides, 'course.

HTH <3

(I used hydrated compounds above to remain consistent with the number in this thread, but for our and most calc's purposes using the target compound is just fine.)


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

(re ratio of N in its different forms in Calcium Ammonium Nitrate) 


> most of that N (>90%) is NO3


Question: I am unsure how to calculate how much N is as NO3 v NH4 in something like Calcium Ammonium Nitrate. Do I care about 4Ns as NO3 per each N as NH4 (so it's 80% N as NO3), or do I care about the mass of all those NO3s vs NH4? Something else?

I mean for the purposes of food for the plant.

Thanks.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

It looks like what Wikipedia is giving me compared to the MSDS and product sheets etc. on other sites isn't congruent. For that matter, I'm seeing several different listings for what Calcium Ammonium Nitrate/Calcium Nitrate is by weight. It seems to either have a number of forms, or many incorrect listings:

http://www.simplot.com/agricultural/plant/upload/Calcium_Ammon_Nitrate.pdf
http://www.agrofertnorden.com/products/calcium.htm
http://www.ravensdown.co.nz/Products/Solid+Fertilisers/Nitrogen/Calcium+Ammonium+Nitrate+%28CAN%29.htm
http://www.uralchem.com/eng/production_and_services/795/799/

Google turns up many other listings that don't agree.

Perhaps you are better off scraping the stuff, at very least test it through NO3 and NH4.


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

wet said:


> Any word, J-P? I'd put it aside. If really tempted there's been some discussion about urea in our planted tanks. Weigh both sides, 'course.


Nothing as of yet. I emailed the company also and hope to get a reply soon


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Ok I got an answer. Calcium Nitrate is not to be used in an aquarium setting. Only a "hydroponic" setting. = no fish.

The nitrates involved are apparently harmful to the fish.

This is coming from the distributor hydroponics.com


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Well you could always use it to fertilize an emersed growth tray if you like foreground plants. I've saved tons of $$ with mine.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks very much for updating, J-P. Very minor correction for the sake of fthis thread in the archives/future searches: I think the issue is some _nitrogen_ in this form of "Calcium Nitrate" is in a form bad for fish (ammonium), not the nitrogen that's in the form of nitr_ate_. <3


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

yes it very well could be  Thanks for the clarification


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## J-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Philosophos said:


> Well you could always use it to fertilize an emersed growth tray if you like foreground plants. I've saved tons of $$ with mine.


haha maybe the tomatoes will like it


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