# "New" Algae Killer



## hoppycalif

Here is an interesting post from Tom Barr's forum, http://www.barrreport.com/general-p...algae-killer-chemical-yes-its-very-cheap.html

I just ordered some of this stuff to try it out. If it is effective and doesn't do a lot of harm to other tank occupants it could be a staple in our chemicals cabinets.


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## rahamen

But, it adds Na to the tank, isn't it?
rgds


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## Fortuna Wolf

Eh, a bit of Na, but much less, about 3 times less sodium by weight than salt. Just do a water change. 

What it is is oxiclean or oxi-boost btw, if you feel inclined to go out there and try it out real quick.


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## Sunstar

I'll keep this in mind.


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## Ravenous

I have been having a problem with thread algea in all three of my tanks so I'm pretty darn excited to give this a try. If anybody else does this, I look forward to hearing how it works.


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## Tex Gal

The thread continued to state that this is the active ingredient in products such as Oxiclean. No one here is actually recommending using OXiclean, are they?

At 1.5 tablespoons per 100 gallons with water changes before and after 2 hour treatmens (filtration and water current off) it sound pretty easy to use. If floats down and lays on the leaves, rocks etc. The up side of this is supposed to be that the crystals stay in contact with the algae creating peroxide killing it.

I just ordered some from here. It's much cheaper than excel. Excel doesn't work well for some thread algae. 
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Sodium_Percarbonate.html


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## hoppycalif

Texgal, when we get our sodium percarbonate we should start a thread covering our experiments with it. It's too bad you have to order at least 4 pounds of the stuff at a time, probably a lifetime+ supply for any of us. If this is helpful stuff I hope to repackage my supply in much smaller quantities and provide it at cost to members of our local plant club who want to try it. Of course, it may not work, but why worry about that now???


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## bradac56

Where does it say you have to buy two 2lb jars? 

- Brad


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## Fortuna Wolf

This is the same stuff as oxiclean. You can use oxiclean if you have it already. You don't need to buy 4 pounds to experiment with.


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## bradac56

Fortuna Wolf said:


> This is the same stuff as oxiclean. You can use oxiclean if you have it already. You don't need to buy 4 pounds to experiment with.


I looked at the patent for OxyClean it's got several soap additives besides the Sodium percarbonate
so I don't think I'd do that with live fish in the tank. If I only have to buy one 2lb jar I'll probably
do it.

- Brad


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## hoppycalif

Brad, when I tried to purchase one 2 pound can, it refused the order, because the minimum order is $10, and one can is just $5.50. That isn't really a problem since it is so cheap, just an annoyance. I chose not to try the commercial products because I know those are always "improved" with additives, like perfumes, soap, dyes, etc. and since the product is not meant to be used in an aquarium they have no reason not to do that. The pure chemical is certain to be just what it says it is, within the purity limits.


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## Fortuna Wolf

Hm, the MSDS for oxiclean doesn't show the additives. I forgot that sometimes you can look at the patent and get more data.


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## Tex Gal

Hoppy, I'll be glad to help in any way I can. I can sure share my experience! What a good idea about repackaging it and sharing! I also had to order 4 lbs. Like you said it's pretty cheap. 

H2O2 is cheap but I can't keep it in extreme contact with the leaves, rocks, etc. I think it's worth a try for plants like anubias and other slow growers. Much better than taking them out of the tank and bleaching them. Bleach is so harsh on the leaves.

I wouldn't use any of the commercial cleaning products either because of the possible additives. That's why I thought it would be worth mentioning....


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## hoppycalif

Tex Gal, I hope you realize that we will be a cinch for the Nobel Prize in Aquatics if this works well! I may just go out and buy a new Prius with my share of the prize money.


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## bradac56

Fortuna Wolf said:


> Hm, the MSDS for oxiclean doesn't show the additives. I forgot that sometimes you can look at the patent and get more data.


Yea I was recently arguing with a few people in another forum over Prime vs Stress Coat and
got the typical fanboy response when I said just buy whatever is the cheapest. The old argument
came up that Stress Coat really doesn't have a de-chloramine remover so we finally looked up the
patent and low-and-behold it has diazolidinyl urea which is a formaldehyde releaser that acts as a
bonding agent to remove chloramine.

The only place API, Seachem, everyone has to give there full ingredient list is in the patent filing
which is the best place to look (if there is one).

- Brad


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## bradac56

hoppycalif said:


> Brad, when I tried to purchase one 2 pound can, it refused the order, because the minimum order is $10, and one can is just $5.50. That isn't really a problem since it is so cheap, just an annoyance. I chose not to try the commercial products because I know those are always "improved" with additives, like perfumes, soap, dyes, etc. and since the product is not meant to be used in an aquarium they have no reason not to do that. The pure chemical is certain to be just what it says it is, within the purity limits.


Well if it works I'm not sure how I'm going to use up 4lbs of the stuff but your right it'll be worth the price.

- Brad


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## epicfish

I sent them an email to see if theirs was pure:
https://secure25.securewebsession.c...ry.com/LodiWineLab/products.asp?category_id=6

http://shop.texasnaturalsupply.ieasysite.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=NAPER


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## Squawkbert

FWIW - it has taken weeks, but I'm finally starting to get a handle on my Clado algae, at least in the deeper parts of my 46g tank by dosing ~1mL/5g of Metricide 14 (roughly equivalent to Excel).

I'll have to look into this... I've thought about this sort of reaction before too, but I never really investigated it. I'd found Metricide to be cheap, and at least to ground cover, it's easy to target dose w/ a long transfer pipet.


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## mulita

Hoppy, Tex Gal.
I will support you nomination for the Nobel if this works!. I will be getting some for you guys if it works. If this is effective it will be the most easy applying and smooth on plants treatment.


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## BryceM

Subscribed....... watching with curiosity.

opcorn:


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## Bert H

Those of you who are going to try this, I hope you keep careful records and observations and report back all your findings! :thumbsup:


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## hoppycalif

Squawkbert said:


> FWIW - it has taken weeks, but I'm finally starting to get a handle on my Clado algae, at least in the deeper parts of my 46g tank by dosing ~1mL/5g of Metricide 14 (roughly equivalent to Excel).
> 
> I'll have to look into this... I've thought about this sort of reaction before too, but I never really investigated it. I'd found Metricide to be cheap, and at least to ground cover, it's easy to target dose w/ a long transfer pipet.


I'm not a chemist so while I know roughly what a pipet is, can you post a link or picture that shows me what that is? I have been wondering how to target this stuff when I get it.

Bert, for a Nobel Prize I will keep detailed records, including photos! Now, what color Prius to buy today????


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## zzyzx85

pipette...like a miniature turkey baster. usually clear plastic tube with a bulb at the back. Unless you're talking about the glass laboratory pipette.

If it does work, could someone who bought some sodium percarbonate please share some? I really need a solution to get rid of my cladophora. PM me or post in Classifieds, please?


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## hoppycalif

zzyzx85 said:


> pipette...like a miniature turkey baster. usually clear plastic tube with a bulb at the back. Unless you're talking about the glass laboratory pipette.
> 
> If it does work, could someone who bought some sodium percarbonate please share some? I really need a solution to get rid of my cladophora. PM me or post in Classifieds, please?


The vendor selling this stuff says the only legal way to ship it is by UPS. That could be a problem for us trying to sell it and ship by Priority Mail. Except for that I would be happy to send some to somebody else. Now that I think about it, I think I could ship it through MailBoxes, which is a UPS shipping site, but what it would cost I have no idea.


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## Tex Gal

hoppycalif said:


> Tex Gal, I hope you realize that we will be a cinch for the Nobel Prize in Aquatics if this works well! I may just go out and buy a new Prius with my share of the prize money.


A Prius?! You gotta get a bigger car than that! You'll have lots of friends!


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## hoppycalif

Today is the big day! I received my sodium percarbonate last night, in good condition. So, I decided to start testing today. The parameters for my tank are:
45 gallon tank (nominal size)(about 35 gallons of water)
SMS substrate with underlayer of river silt
110 watts of GE9325K PC light raised 6 inches above tank, on 8 hours per day
Pressurized CO2
Water temperature 75F to 85F, depending on room temperature.
Water changed continuously, with dripping flow of inlet water, about 5 gallons per day.
Plants are:
Anubias nana petite
Anubias nana
Microsorum pteropus narrow leaf
Cryptocoryne wendtii, various varieties
Isoetes iacustris
Fish are:
2 - Yoyo Loaches
8 - "Lambchop" Rasboras
4 - Otocinclus
About 15 Guppies
About 4-5 Endlers Live Bearer
Hardscape is:
Structure of African bog wood roots
Small pieces of same wood, with plants tied to them
Filter outlet pipe
Filter inlet pipe
Drain fitting

Present condition of tank: Small BBA areas on some leafs, mostly anubias and Java ferns. Small amount on hardscape. Small areas of GSA on anubias and Crypt leaves. Small tufts of BBA on protruding old roots in substrate.

Fertilizing: By EI method, adjusted for daily dosing, with all fertilizers dosed at one time using two solutions, one of CSM+B+extra iron plus epsom salts, one of KNO3 and KH2PO4. Excel dosed at 10 ml per day, squirted on BBA areas under water. CO2 at bubble rate to keep drop checker in yellow-green area all day, off at night. 









Sodium Percarbonate recommended dosage - 1.5 Tablespoon per 100 gallons
For 35 gallons, recommended dosage is about 1.5 Teaspoon

First dosage, .5 teaspoon, will be sprinkled over wood structure, with filter and Koralia pump turned off, about one hour after fertilizing and feeding fish.

But, first I have been looking into what possible bad effects I might run into. Sodium percarbonate is a compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, which releases hydrogen peroxide when in water. The possible effects would be from the peroxide, from the sodium or from the carbonate. Sodium percarbonate is about 29% sodium, compared to sodium bicarbonate, which is about 27% sodium, so the effect of the sodium should be about the same as for dosing baking soda to raise the KH. Sodium percarbonate is about 38% carbonate, compared to sodium bicarbonate which is about 71% carbonate, so the increase in KH due to sodium percarbonate should be about half of that for baking soda. Neither of these is at all likely to be a problem, when dosed with amounts comparable to that used for baking soda to raise KH. Hydrogen peroxide can be a problem for plants, fish and algae, but it lasts only for a short time in the aquarium water, so it isn't likely that it will be harmful to the plants or fish, given that some people dose 3% hydrogen peroxide in their tanks routinely when trying to kill algae. But, this is the big unknown, where the effect of the sodium and carbonate are not unknown.

.5 teaspoon of sodium percarbonate will only raise my KH about .4 dKH.

I will measure my tank water KH, GH and pH before and after the test. I will decide whether to do a major water change after the test based on what I see in the tank.


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## hoppycalif

My water tested at 6.2 pH, 2 dKH, and less than 1 dGH (softer than I expected). So, I added 1/2 tsp of sodium percarbonate, sprinkling it over the wood structure. It immediately began generating a mass of microbubbles:


















After 10 minutes this had decreased by over half, a few guppies were grazing on the bits of chemical left, and swimming through the bubbles. Some white scum was floating on the surface above the wood.

After 20 minutes the bubbling was reduced to about 10% of what it was originally, and my continuous water change system had skimmed off almost all of the white scum.

In 25 minutes there was very little fizzing going on so I restarted the filter, the Koralia and the CO2 injection. No fish seem the least bit distressed at this point.

After an hour has passed I will do my water tests again and decide whether to do a big water change then.


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## hoppycalif

After 75 minutes the tank looks just as it did when I started. I can't see any effect on the minor BBA on the wood, nor anywhere else in the tank. The pH is still 6.2, the GH less than 1, but the KH is up to about 3 dKH, as expected.

To get the water changed a bit faster I increased the flow on my continuous water change system to about 15 gallons per day. Now I think I will wait a couple of days to see if any fish show any ill effects, then try a full dose of 1.5 teaspoons, evenly spread over the entire water surface.

Eventually I will need to add some Equilibrium to raise my GH. I suppose I should test that more often.


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## Edward

post deleted by BryceM


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## Ravenous

At this dilution is it really cruelty to animals? How much does it increase the salinity in the short term and is the concentration of peroxide that results dangerous? One could say that keeping any pet in a cage, pen, or aquarium is cruelty but is there anyway to test if this is actually painful to the critters in the tank? My girlfriend flushes her sinuses with a mixture of sodium chloride and sodium bicarbonate and it helps her... I'm not saying it is the same thing but I would of assumed that putting either of these things up your nose would be painful and I was wrong about that. I know that they don't scream or cry or say anything is wrong but unless we know what the resulting dilutions of these chemicals in the water column are we can't say they are cruel or harmful.


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## hoppycalif

Post delted by BryceM


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## Nevermore

On Planted Tank Tom Barr cautioned someone else who had bought the stuff to be very careful with it; that people have killed their fish with it. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/75020-cant-get-rid-cladophora.html


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## Edward

Post deleted by BryceM


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## Ravenous

Edward, that was an excellent explanation and now I understand. Is there anyway to neutralize the chemical if I were to treat my plants and driftwood in a separate tank, or could I rinse them enough to make it safe to put back in my aquarium. I guess if you have to remove the items being treated anyway, potassium permagnate would be the way to go then.


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## MatPat

I too am subscribing to this thread  It will be very interesting to see how this works out in Hoppy's tank. As far as adding "toxic substances" to our tanks most of us do this every day. People kill their fish by overdosing Excel/Gluteraldehyde, injecting too much CO2, allowing toxic ammonia/nitrite to build up by not properly cycling their tank or doing insufficient water changes, etc. Hoppy, have you noticed any ill effects at this point from the Guppies that tried to eat the Sodium Percarbonate? If they actually ingested some of this I would think the effects would have been near immediate.

While I'm no where near a chemist a couple of things in the MSDS link Edward provided have me thinking it is not such a bad thing after being added to water and I could use a better explanation of the below wording (in red) that was cut and pasted directly from the MSDS:

♀Acute ecotoxicity:
►Fish, pimephales promelas, LC50, 70.7mg/L.
►Fish, Pimephales promelas, NOEC, 96 hours, 1mg/L.

LC50, doesn't this mean that half of the fish died at a sustained level of 70.7mg? How much do we need to add to achieve and maintain this level? Are we anywhere close to this level when adding it in the recommended amounts? What is the half life, minutes, hours, days?

I'm assuming that NOEC means all of the fish died after exposure to 1mg/L (1ppm) after 96 hours. Again, how much do we need to add to achieve and maintain this level and are we anywhere close to this level when adding it in the recommended amounts??

♀Abiotic degradation:
►Air: Not applicable
►Water: Significant hydrolysis.
►Degradation's products: sodium carbonate, carbon dioxide, bicarbonate, carbonate,
hydrogen peroxide.
►Soil: Hydrolysis.

With the exception of hydrogen peroxide, which people frequently use to combat algae, it would seem that the degradation products are not very toxic unless they are produced in significant quantities during the degradation process. Given the fact that Hoppy's KH only rose by 0.5 dKH, I would have to guess the carbonates and bicarbonates are not a factor and that a large amount of CO2 must be released during degradation. Is this in fact the issue with the toxicity of the degradation process?

♀Comments:
►Toxic for aquatic organisms. Nevertheless, hazard for the aquatic environment is limited due to produce properties.
►Not bioaccumuable.
►Abiotic degradation.
►Low toxicity of degradation products
 
To me it sounds like Sodium Percarbonate can be very toxic in it's dry form but once added to water it breaks down into non toxic byproducts that some of us already add to our aquariums...Sodium Carbonate, Carbon Dioxide, Bicarbonate and Carbonate which have a low toxicity according to the wording above. Am I incorrectly assuming this by reading the above wording from the MSDS? I would think most of us have those four items present in our tap water as well, though probably in lesser quantities than is produced by the degradation of Sodium Percarbonate.

:rant:I'm not buying into the "cruelty to animals" reference here. Granted, adding this chemical to an aquarium is a deliberate act by an individual but this whole hobby is nothing more than a deliberate act of "cruelty to animals" if we really want to think about it. We take fish from bodies of water that number anywhere from thousands to millions of gallons and put them in a glass box that rarely exceeds 200 gallons. Sure, I could live in an 8'x10' prison cell without ever going outside but how humane a life would that be?

I would imagine that hundreds of thousands if not millions of fish are killed each year during the catch, exportation, shipping and acclimation processes that are used to get them into our tanks so we can enjoy them. Even the fish used in the toxicity tests, _Pimephales promelas, _more commonly sold in LFS as the Rosy Red, is basically a fish grown to feed other fish and to test for toxicity levels of various chemicals in bodies of water. How cruel is that?

Honestly, what I find more disturbing than the "cruelty to animals reference", even if it was stated jokingly, is the fact that another human being would even suggest someone put this product in their eyes and then take a picture after reading the MSDS:

♀Irritation:
►Eyes, severe damage, rabbit.

Now that is just wrong! Let's all hope some young kid reading the forum doesn't get a hold of this, take it to school and toss it in the eyes of another kid who has been harassing him.:rant:

Sorry for the rant  Hopefully someone can shed some light on the questions above so we can all have a better understanding on how Sodium Percarbonate works in our aquariums.


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## Cavan Allen

I see threads like this where people experiment with various substances to kill algae and I just don't get it. The fact is that algae is not hard to prevent and is easy to eradicate if a tank is maintained properly. It's not hard! Somebody sent me plants one time that were almost totally covered with algae and after a few days, the plants were growing well and the algae was dead. I don't mean to be critical; I just think that a band-aid approach mindset is not a good one. Over reliance on stuff like megadosing Excel doesn't really help people in the long run. I sometimes use it in addition to pressurized co2 but only see it as a _small part_ of the whole picture.


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## ashappard

I'll second that!

algae control isn't that bad, even when it catches up to you and you have a mess to deal with.
just like washing the dishes / doing laundry / sweeping floors and so forth, routine cleaning makes a world of difference between a nasty home (aquarium) and a clean healthy one. Also, sticking with a bad routine and hoping things will turn around someday is a losing strategy. yeah, I've seen every flavor of algae in my tanks at one time or another. But I make short work of it and adjust accordingly so it doesn't take over.

as a side note - I have a 'low tech' tank no CO2 / low light / etc that absolutely destroys GDA.
so when I get plants from people that are covered in the green dust or just mildly affected, they go in there for a day or two and then into the tank where I want to grow them out.


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## abcemorse

Edward,
If you add CO2, KNO3, MKP, or virtually any other chemical to your tank you could be accused of the very same thing. EXCESS CO2, EXCESS KNO3, etc can cause discomfort and/or death, which is why we all carefully monitor those parameters. Hoppy knows what he's doing and is not going to intentionally torture his fish and to claim otherwise is absurd and inflammatory.


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## BryceM

OK. This thread (like any other) will be closed if civil conversation can't take place here. It would really be a shame, since there is certainly value in discussing an agent that might posses some beneficial anti-algae properties.

Look, constructive and useful discussion in an open forum can only take place within a framework of mutual respect. One can emphatically disagree with someones position without resorting to a personal attack. The best way to do this is to present evidence to support one's position.

Edward's argument (potential harm to animals) is poorly presented, but does raise a valid concern. With more careful wording, it might have encouraged a healthy discussion about the potential toxic effects rather inciting an emotionally charged exchange. We should all keep in mind that a remedy at one concentration is often a poison at another.

I happen to agree with Cavan's argument that we should all be focusing on providing conditions that don't favor the growth of algae. Even so, it doesn't hurt to investigate the benefits and limitations of a potential algicide. I frequently use a short course of Excel or erythromycin to restore things to a stable, healthy condition.


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## MatPat

Nicely put Bryce. 

I too agree with Cavan but there are times when life gets in the way and our tank(s) has to take a back seat for a while. When things settle down and we are able to get back to the hobby we often need a remedy for algae that has taken over during our absence. Sure, manual removal and correcting the situation that brought on the algae are the best method but this can sometimes be difficult for someone new to the hobby to understand. 

During the recovery stage, the use of E-mycin or Excel can be fairly expensive in comparison to Sodium Percarbonate. There may be merits for it's toxicity and I would like to have that explained a bit better because I simply just don't understand it. E-mycin, Excel/Gluteraldehyde, H2O2, and even the ferts we use can all be toxic if misused or overdosed. Even the fenbendazole that I have used successfully for planaria/hydra erradication in my shrimp tanks can be toxic if overdosed. If we are to safely use a new chemical such as Sodium Percarbonate, someone has got to experiment with it and I for one hope to hear more of Hoppy's experiment and what it's effects have been on his algae.


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## mulita

Good action Bryce.

I certainly agree that keeping conditions as Cavan mention will keep algae in control and all of us knows, but, lets face it, most of us have had algae problems some time, so this is a very controlled and monitored experiment driven by hoppy and I am sure he doesn't want to damage any plant of animal in his aquarium.

The chemicals used are known, there are reference of what these can do, and so it is a controlled test within parameters that theorically wont affect any living critters.

I think this is a great experiment conducted by hoppy and there is a lot to win with it. Someone may disagree but do your observations keeping limits.


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## davemonkey

Well, it took me awhile, but I read through the WHOLE thread!! I'm very interested in how this experiment goes and eagerly await hoppy's and TexGal's results/data. 

-Dave


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## Cavan Allen

I've noticed that the first responses to a query about an algae issue are often based on big dosing of Excel or something of that nature. The underlying cause is given a back seat. I understand that life can sometimes get in the way; I can certainly relate. However, I'd like to note that a really stable and well-maintained aquarium can offer suffer considerable disruption without major consequences. In the event that something does go wrong, it's not hard to fix by normal means. I'm not against Hoppy's experiment and concede that there may in fact be instances where the substance being tested or something like it might be useful. But again, among other things, the following will prevent most unfortunate situations from arising in the first place: a good plan to start, research, solid fertilization, good water movement, co2 and patience. It's my hope that people new to the hobby keep all of that in mind. Don't rely on quick fixes! With all the advances in the last few years and the great increase in general knowledge, there's no need for anyone to suffer.


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## Nevermore

Well, it's concerning to me if Hoppy's dropping it in and some of the fish are trying to eat it. I don't care whether it's a guppy or a cichlid, he should prevent that from happening!


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## Edward

Ravenous said:


> Edward, that was an excellent explanation and now I understand. Is there anyway to neutralize the chemical if I were to treat my plants and driftwood in a separate tank, or could I rinse them enough to make it safe to put back in my aquarium. I guess if you have to remove the items being treated anyway, potassium permagnate would be the way to go then.


Ravenous
Plants covered by most types of algae can be washed with running tap water. This does not harm the plants as chemicals do. Then plants can be placed back to aquarium to continue growing. In case of BBA the infested plant parts can not be repaired. This algae grow into the plant tissue inside. So the best option is not to weaken the plant further by chemicals but get it into a good healthy environment where new leaves can grow so later you can remove the infected ones.

For driftwood, plastics, hoses, rocks, pumps, decorations etc. use common bleach, cheap and effective in original concentration as it comes from supermarket. Leave it in it over night then flush thousand times and let sit in tap water overnight to make sure it's clean. 

Algae spores are present everywhere and can not be eliminated. What you can do is to create conditions where algae can not grow. 

Edward


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## davemonkey

Nevermore said:


> Well, it's concerning to me if Hoppy's dropping it in and some of the fish are trying to eat it. I don't care whether it's a guppy or a cichlid, he should prevent that from happening!


...this kinda goes back to the "cruelty to aminals" bit...

Maybe I'm wrong, but if the fish are eating/picking at it, then it obviously is not causing them physical pain or suffering.

If the powder/chemical was indeed in high enough concentration to burn their gills, eat away at their slime coat, irritate their eyes, or do anything else painful or harmful to the fish, then it is only logical to expect the fish to avoid it, try to escape the area of concentration, or show signs of distress.

If the fish are pecking at it and trying to eat it, I don't see how you can say it's distressing the fish or causing them harm. :suspiciou

Again, maybe I'm wrong. But I have a very hard time seeing how this is any more harmful than excel, CO2, or any of the fertilizers we use on a daily basis when used in moderation.


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## BJRuttenberg

Any news, Hoppy? How things coming?


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## Tex Gal

Boy Hoppy! What a mess! So glad you were the one to take the heat. Don't think I'd be as strong to take it. Keep up the good work. As long as you have been in the hobby- it bears out that you are a respectable gentlemen that cares about the fish and the plants. (I got my order a couple days ago. Gonna try it soon. I will be ready with a water change. I'm not sure I'll be as brave to post my findings given the attacks that have ensued.)

This hobby has a long learning curve. Algae treatments are necessary when you can't help how things happen (ie, moving, hurricane, equipment failures, etc.). We have all read that even the "experts" have had to use excel and such from time to time. I doubt there are any of us out there that would not rather have a balanced algae free aquarium than to continue battling algae. Learning how to do that from tank to tank is the challenge. For those of you that are really good at this - _Please won't you be patient as the rest of us learn how to do this?! Don't forget what it was like when you were a newbie!_


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## helgymatt

Any updates here Hoppy or Tex Gal? I hope you didn't all get scared away


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## Tex Gal

Thought I'd post in this thread. I did get some of the product and wanted to let you know what happened.

BEFORE I do that, I wanted to say that since this thread I have noticed that Hoppy is much less participatory on APC. I wonder if his treatment in this thread had anything to do with it. I don't know. I would hate to think that members of APC are more concerned about "potential" harm to fish than kind treatment to a member of the forum. That seems a little out of kilter to me.

Now to my less-than-scientific results. On two separate occasions I took anubias out of my tank and put it in a bowl with 1 gallon of Prime treated water. Time #1 I sprinkled 1 and 1/2 tsp of Sodium Percarbonate. The anubias had some BBA and Green spot algae on it. I did this 2 times in about 2 hours. The product fizzed with fine bubbles. Afterwards I inspected the plant rinsed well with tap water and put it back in a fresh gallon of water overnight. In the am the plant appeared nice and clean, algae free. No damage what so ever. I stuck it back in my tank. No ill affects anywhere. I want you to know I WAY WAY OVER TREATED this plant OUTSIDE my tank. Never would I have put that much of this chemical inside my tank. I do think it kills algae.

Occasion #2. I used 1 gal of Prime treated water and again an infested anubias. It had green spot algae and a small amount of BBA. I again used WAY WAY too much, probably 5 tsp and sprinkled it on the plant. In a few hours I sprinkled more agian. I did this three times. Each time the product fizzed. The algae was dying. The next day I removed the plant, rinsed it well. I left it for another day in clean water. Then I put it back in my tank. The leaves began to disintegrate. The my shrimp (including CRS) swarmed all over it devouring the leaves. It became a mesh of leaf veins. I now only have the rhizome left. I am waiting to see if the rhizome will rot or if it will grow the leaves back. Obviously I reached critical mass with the chemical. NONE of my shrimp suffered any ill affects from eating the leaves. No dead bodies, no sick or slow shrimp. The fish in the tank are all very well. It's been about a week since I put this last plant (what's left of it) back in the tank.

Findings: This product does kill algae. You must use it sparingly. If you have a large area to treat do it little at a time. It will NOT harm fish or inverts that eat the plant treated with this product EVEN if the plant was killed. I would not hesitate to use it in the tank. I will use excel first for BBA. I will use this for clado or such that is harder to kill. I would also do the recommended water change 2 hours following treatment.


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## Nevermore

Hoppy contributes a lot, here and on Planted Tank. I feel bad if he's not posting on APC anymore. I enjoy and learn a lot from his posts and I don't believe he would do anything to intentionally harm his fish. I apologize if I accused him of doing otherwise.


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## Tex Gal

I sure hope that whoever of whatever the issues were that they are resolved between the parties. It's sad to me when these things happen. Whether it was a misunderstanding or what. Two words go along way - "I'm sorry".

I miss Hoppy!


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## BryceM

Tex Gal said:


> since this thread, I have noticed that Hoppy is much less participatory on APC. I wonder if his treatment in this thread had anything to do with it.


Hoppy sent me a message indicating that because of the content of this thread, he would now be devoting his time on other forums.



I'm certainly not singling anyone out here. I suspect Hoppy's declining activity here goes way beyond this thread. It does serve as a critical reminder to all of us that written text is often far more blunt, and therefore more hurtful, than would ever be conveyed during the same conversation in person.

The written nature of forums leads to misunderstandings with regrettable frequency.


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## Bert H

BryceM said:


> Hoppy sent me a message indicating that because of the content of this thread, he would now be devoting his time on other forums.


I'm really sorry to hear that.  I always found his comments very insightful and helpful to the community.



> The written nature of forums leads to misunderstandings with regrettable frequency.


Unfortunately, true.


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## davemonkey

Bert H said:


> I'm really sorry to hear that.  I always found his comments very insightful and helpful to the community.


+1. I've seen him pop up on another forum, but miss him on this one. I didn't understand the concept of light intensity AT ALL until he clarified it for me in a way I could grasp it.

-Dave


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## supersmirky

I used this stuff last night. I too had silly fish nipping at the stuff as it bubbled away. No fish showed signs of distress and everything looked good. Today when I get back, I will see if it did anything for me. I have a 130 gallon and only spot treated my driftwood with about 1 tablespoon.


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## Avalon

I am not in favor of this method. Whether or not it works isn't the issue for me, it's the band-aid part I don't care for. We all search for a quick fix, but nothing trumps sheer knowledge and execution of proper methods that have been tried and true.

Have we really come to a point that we should stop learning and experimenting? Have we really exhausted all options? I think not. After many years in the planted tank hobby, I'm still learning. Experiments are slow and may not work, but the knowledge gained is priceless. Keep in mind this is a method for bodies of water you simply can't inject CO2 and dump fertilizers in. You want to beat algae? Keep studying and experimenting. The answer is usually right in front of you.


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## Manwithnofish

Cavan Allen said:


> I see threads like this where people experiment with various substances to kill algae and I just don't get it. The fact is that algae is not hard to prevent and is easy to eradicate if a tank is maintained properly. It's not hard!


Poppycock and Horse's Patoot. :lol: From my experience, it's impossible to prevent and can only be kept at bay through continuous and diligent efforts to clean and remove it. If anyone knows how (and therefore implies that you can convey to other's that knowledge) how to stop / prevent algae, please see my numerous pleas for help. Because I (and apparently many others) are struggling to find out how it is done.


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## HeyPK

Manwithnofish said:


> Poppycock and Horse's Patoot. :lol: From my experience, it's impossible to prevent and can only be kept at bay through continuous and diligent efforts to clean and remove it. If anyone knows how (and therefore implies that you can convey to other's that knowledge) how to stop / prevent algae, please see my numerous pleas for help. Because I (and apparently many others) are struggling to find out how it is done.


All my tanks are free of hair algae and I do not have to 'manage' to keep it down. It just is not present. I got rid of it using the bleach method, and I keep it out by bleaching all plants before putting them in. I describe the bleach method in a sticky at the top of this forum.


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## Manwithnofish

HeyPK said:


> All my tanks are free of hair algae and I do not have to 'manage' to keep it down. It just is not present. I got rid of it using the bleach method, and I keep it out by bleaching all plants before putting them in. I describe the bleach method in a sticky at the top of this forum.


My comments were not regarding "hair" algae. I am not having a problem with hair algae.


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## HeyPK

By hair algae, I mean any of the filamentous algae that are tough and are not eaten by snails such as ramshorns, pond snails, or Malaysian trumpet snails. _Cladophora_ is included in my definition, along with the ones that are called fuzz algae, such as _Oedogonium_. Also included are black beard algae and staghorn algae. The only types of algae I have in my tanks are the soft attached types, which can be managed by snails and green water, which can be managed by, if you have fish, having a sufficient density of plants and, if you don't have fish, by introducing Daphnia.


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## Tex Gal

I think one of the issues that impacts algae and it's battles are the types of plants you are growing. If you have the more difficult high light ones that require high tech everything algae will be more of a problem to get a handle on. Many of those that don't have algae issues aren't growing these plants. (I'm not saying that is everyone - so don't get upset if this doesn't pertain to you.) It's just a lot harder because there is NO ROOM for error. Things grow fast, consume fast, get messy fast. I have mostly rare and difficult plants. I got bba just from a weekend at the AGA conference when the tank was overfed. It's disappear fast now. But it was a mess!

If this were child's play there would not be so much talk about algae and the control of algae.


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## Manwithnofish

Tex Gal said:


> If this were child's play there would not be so much talk about algae and the control of algae.


That was my point. It isn't as easy or simple as was implied. There is a lot of experience on this forum and thus far no one has been able to tell me how to solve the problem. It's like trying to balance an egg on a toothpick. God only knows how some people did it, but you can't just tell someone how to do it. Hell, I've not even figured out how to make the toothpick stand up, let alone put an egg on top. I think it's just far too much science for us to comprehend. In fact, I believe I am very near of the opinion that it simply isn't possible. Or perhaps I should say, simply isn't worth it. :croc:


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## BryceM

Manwithnoalgae,

Most people who have messed around with algae problems are closer to success than they realize. There isn't a single formula for success but there are a few simple principles and if you'll follow them, I can almost guarantee success. Send me a PM.


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## Cavan Allen

Avalon said:


> I am not in favor of this method. Whether or not it works isn't the issue for me, it's the band-aid part I don't care for. We all search for a quick fix, but nothing trumps sheer knowledge and execution of proper methods that have been tried and true.


Thank you. That's been my view as well. I don't mean to pick on Hoppy or anyone else in this thread or overlook the fact that many newer people have problems. The point is that based on my experience, things like this are a diversion and _should not be relied upon for success_. Knowledge and application of the fundamentals is.


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## Tex Gal

I really think the point here is that everyone "wants" a balanced tank. No one "wants" to fool around with algae. Sometimes life happens and you get algae. SO now what? You have to clean and scrub and take action. It doesn't just melt away for most people. Clado keeps growing unless you get it all out. BBA damages leaf tissue and you need to prune. Until you get the system balanced you still have to deal with the stuff. 

I lost a great field of UG because of clado that I brought in from an LFS. I didn't even buy plant from them! I bought fish. I don't even put the fish water in the tank. I must have scooped out a minute particle with the fish. When I changed my light bulbs trying to find the proper amount of light I had clado! I did get rid of it. Haven't seen it back since, (knock on wood). 

Some of us just need a little extra help from time to time. It's not a "regular" thing. It's like a gravel vacuum sometimes!


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## Manwithnofish

Tex Gal said:


> Clado keeps growing unless you get it all out. BBA damages leaf tissue and you need to prune. Until you get the system balanced you still have to deal with the stuff.
> 
> I lost a great field of UG because of clado that I brought in from an LFS. I didn't even buy plant from them! I bought fish. I don't even put the fish water in the tank. I must have scooped out a minute particle with the fish. When I changed my light bulbs trying to find the proper amount of light I had clado! I did get rid of it. Haven't seen it back since, (knock on wood).


If that's the case, I'd have to empty the tank, throw all the substrate away, throw out all the plants, clean everything and start over, except this time wear a clean suit whenever I feed my fish! I don't think I want to go through that.

So what are my alternatives. Get rid of the CO2, ferts, and half the light. If I give up the plants, would I be able to keep fish without fighting alage and cleaning everything every week?


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## helgymatt

Cavan Allen said:


> Thank you. That's been my view as well. I don't mean to pick on Hoppy or anyone else in this thread or overlook the fact that many newer people have problems. The point is that based on my experience, things like this are a diversion and _should not be relied upon for success_. Knowledge and application of the fundamentals is.


Did anyone say that is algae TREATMENT should be "relied upon for success"? The way I see it, as TexGal and others have stressed, that algae DOES and WILL happen even in the best managed tanks. Now, for beginners especially, algae is more likely to occur because they are still learning! You cannot simply grasp everything about planted aquariums overnight. People get into this hobby thinking that growing aquatic plants shouldn't be that hard....all of us were probably once there. Next thing we know, we have algae. I had algae....for some types of algae you need a way to treat it, and then need a way to prevent it from coming back. We learn from our mistakes and we begin to have less and less algae problems as time goes on. I don't have algae in my tanks now, because of all I have learned.

If some nasty algae returns, like Clado, what do it do? It is not just as simple as "getting things right" and it will just go away quickly. For some algae, yes, correcting things will help them go away, but other types of algae will not go away for a long time. Who has that kind of patience? I have had to tear up foregrounds of glosso and HC because of this S&$t that I spend months maturing. Nothing would kill it and manually removing it was next to impossible. If this method turns out to be a treatment for this type of algae, then what is the problem? If I dont have to throw away months of growth and work, then I'm all for this! Keep up the work Hoppy (if its even worth mentioning him now) and TexGal! "Some" of us appreciate your effort in this and ingenuity to answer some unknown questions.

This is just like maintaining anything else....like your house, car, lawn mower....If you let things go, problems will occur and you need a "fix". Sure, the best thing to do is wash your car every day, paint your house every year, and change your oil every month, but we are not all perfect and forget to do things some times.


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## Cavan Allen

helgymatt said:


> I had algae....I needed a way to treat it, and then needed a way to prevent it from coming back.


The problem is that _there is often a focus on treatment rather than prevention_. That's the point I and a few other have been trying to make here. Getting rid of what you've already got is one thing, but what you need to do to get rid of it without fancy chemicals and prevent it from coming back are the same thing. And I'd like to point out again that stable, well maintained tanks are often largely resistant to outbreaks. You don't need to be constantly hovering over your tanks to keep them clean and running well.

P.S. Algae does not always happen even in well-run tanks. I had a 75 running for over a year and a half that didn't have even a single speck of algae from the first day to the last (when I let it go emersed). No joke. I've had other tanks that way and know other people who have tanks just like it. It's not as hard as a lot of people think.


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## helgymatt

Cavan Allen said:


> The problem is that _there is often a focus on treatment rather than prevention_. That's the point I and a few other have been trying to make here. Getting rid of what you've already got is one thing, but what you need to do to get rid of it without fancy chemicals and prevent it from coming back are the same thing. And I'd like to point out again that stable, well maintained tanks are often largely resistant to outbreaks.


I completely agree that the focus should be on prevention and I have always stressed that to others.

But, can I ask what you do to beautiful stand of Glosso or HC infested with Clado, that you spend months creating? Or what you "would" do if you have never had that algae problem before? And you can't say that you won't have it because you do everything right to prevent it! Pretend you are a beginner and all was well until one weekend your CO2 ran out/your power went out/or you accidentally trippled your ferts, and this algae showed up and took over in a week


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## Cavan Allen

Give detailed tank specs and we'll see what we can do. Perhaps in another thread. Time for football.


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## helgymatt

Cavan Allen said:


> Give detailed tank specs and we'll see what we can do. Perhaps in another thread. Time for football.


Thats a cop out. Sorry.


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## Avalon

There's two sides to the coin: prevention and a cure. To focus on the cure part, which seems to be the point at hand, I particularly liked the recent sticky thread about how to prune your planted tank. This is how you get rid of the algae you have.

I know all too well that accidents happen, you go out of town, or whatever the case may be, and algae shows up. I can't stress enough that you can't simply wave your magic wand and make the algae go away. You must prune it all off and let the plants regrow after having corrected the problem. If your tank is of the high light variety, they should grow back in a week or two. Look at it this way: you're going to have to prune, may as well do it a little early.

In the case of the foregrounds & clado, it's a tough one. You can always replant your foreground. It needs to be done on a regular basis anyway, along with a substrate vacuum underneath the old cover. It always grows in much faster than when you first started it since the plants are already acclimated to your tank. You'll learn quickly how to not get it after doing this once or twice. You want results, you gotta work for it.


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## Cavan Allen

This is a battle of some sort? That's news to me! It's all about keeping the thread on topic and not hijacking it. If you'd like to set up a help thread, have at it.


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## helgymatt

*Cavan*, I'm don't feel I'm hijacking this thread. I'm trying to backup the work that hoppy and tex are doing, while a few are trying to put it all down saying it is all worthless. This thread was hijacked long ago and drove hoppy away.

*Avalon*, I replanted my forground with my same glosso three times. Once you have clado in there, it will not go away. I removed as much as I could manually...didn't help. I tore it out and am leaving my forground empty till I confirm it is gone.

I don't need to start a new thread, I have solved the problem...unofortunatley I tore out the infected plants. Do you consider tearing out something you worked so hard to create a good way to get rid of algae?...I don't think so. Nothing else worked...I WISH I would have tried this method.


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## Cavan Allen

helgymatt said:


> *Cavan*, I'm don't feel I'm hijacking this thread. I'm trying to backup the work that hoppy and tex are doing, while a few are trying to put it all down saying it is all worthless. This thread was hijacked long ago and drove hoppy away.
> 
> *Avalon*, I replanted my forground with my same glosso three times. Once you have clado in there, it will not go away. I removed as much as I could manually...didn't help. I tore it out and am leaving my forground empty till I confirm it is gone.
> 
> I don't need to start a new thread, I have solved the problem...unofortunatley I tore out the infected plants. Do you consider tearing out something you worked so hard to create a good way to get rid of algae?...I don't think so. Nothing else worked...I WISH I would have tried this method.


I give up. Good luck.


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