# 55gallon tank question using 2.9watts per gallon light



## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

I was wondering if my plants will need fertilizers, how much CO2, and what amount of water changes being under 2.9watts per gallon of light?

I currently have root tabs for my melon sword. No other ferts used. I don't have fish in there right now. I would like to add an apple snail, otos, and/or neons and zebra danios. I use three DIY 2liter CO2 bottles on my 55gal tank. Do I need to increase this? Is it possible to overdose CO2? If so, what happens? I was also thinking about getting the Hagen Plant Grow Natural System with CO2. Is this system worth it compared to DIY?

http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...1175364312845&itemNo=0&In=Fish&N=2030065&Ne=2

Right now I'm having problems with blue-green algae and hair algae mostly. I have a relatively low plant mass. I will be getting more plants today. I want to use seachem flourish excel but I can't find it in my lfs. I don't want to buy it online because it cost $14 a bottle (for a small bottle), including the shipping. I just can't bring myself to pay that for a small bottle of it. Should I use regular flourish instead? What are the differences between the two? My substrate is 3.5'' of cheap topsoil topped with a 1'' of play sand. This tank is semi-el natural. I would prefer to not have to dose ferts daily. Weekly at most. I will not buy pressurized CO2. Can't afford it right now. I prefer for this tank to be semi-low maintenance. Under 2.9watts per gallon is this possible?

I currently have these plants in my tank&#8230;
1 melon sword
1 large ball java moss
1 medium-small size java fern
15 stems creeping jenny
5 un-sprouted Aponogeton bulbs
A good amount of native lake plants (unidentified)
Unidentified stem plant
Ludwigia Repens broad leaf
Small fist size glosso


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I don't think your question fits this forum..

but yes you need to add ferts to the water and not just root tabs.
That's why you're getting algae.. and because of the high light wattage


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## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> I don't think your question fits this forum..


your kidding!? why not?


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## AMP (Nov 11, 2006)

> I was wondering if my plants will need fertilizers, how much CO2, and what amount of water changes being under 2.9watts per gallon of light?


Yes, You should have some type of Fert regime to use with plants, Dry or Liquid, the choice is yours on which way to go with fertilizing, There are alot of interesting facts and reading here on Fertilizing. For Liquids try here and see if this is more budget minded for you, I use all Seachams products, By the 2L bottles. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/NavResults.cfm?N=2004+113221 Dry ferts Greg Watson's is the way to go there.

My water changes on the 55 are 8 gallons weekly.
Three bottle DIY Co2 is all I had on my 55 along with a DIY Power reactor made from spare parts and a Gravel cleaner.



> Right now I'm having problems with blue-green algae and hair algae mostly. I have a relatively low plant mass. I will be getting more plants today. I want to use seachem flourish excel but I can't find it in my lfs.


Excel has been known to cure most algae problems, so I would definitely get it. Add some fast growing Stems for now, Even throw in some hortwarth until your plants establish.



> I prefer for this tank to be semi-low maintenance. Under 2.9watts per gallon is this possible?


Someone else might want to chime in here on this, I go 12 hrs and heavily planted, I dose daily, takes only 5 minutes to measure it all out and pour it in. I went high light on mine at 3.93 and 4.5 for a 5 hr burst, I had to adjust my dosing, as your plants start to grow, you will have to dose daily, or you may end up loosing some plants. In this hobby,, so i found out, you try to reproduce nature, but it does not rain in your tank, and the water is self contained, so Nutrient addition is a necessity.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

TigerLilly said:


> your kidding!? why not?


oops. sorry, I missed the part where you said you have topsoil in there.


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## kennyman (Oct 19, 2005)

They might as well call this the "any tank with dirt forum" and make it a child forum of the substrate section. What kind if criteria are people using to make the claim of a natural system other than their tank has some organic substrate added?


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## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

kennyman said:


> They might as well call this the "any tank with dirt forum" and make it a child forum of the substrate section. What kind if criteria are people using to make the claim of a natural system other than their tank has some organic substrate added?


slow growth
little or no CO2
Medium to low lighting
natural substrate (dirt/sand/pebbles)
light stocking of fish
no ferts

My tank is a in between tank. It isn't high tech. It isn't 100% el natural. It has components of both. That's why I call it "semi-el natural" If I were to have posted this in general plant discussions or any other section I'd have people all over me telling me to get rid of the top soil, get rid of the shop lights, get AH supply lights, get pressurized CO2, get rid of the DIY CO2, etc...


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## plantblr (Feb 27, 2007)

I dont know why people have been discussing this question here in this forum which is a purely El Natural discussion forum.Hi-tech stuff like CO2,ferts etc......to be discussed in other forums which are already there.


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## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

plantblr said:


> I dont know why people have been discussing this question here in this forum which is a purely El Natural discussion forum.Hi-tech stuff like CO2,ferts etc......to be discussed in other forums which are already there.


because it is not a high tech tank.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I don't know why everyone is getting on your case? Geeze, guys, let the lady ask her questions! It doesn't seem like a high tech tank to me either. Don't let them keep you down, Tiger!


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

donaldmboyer said:


> I don't know why everyone is getting on your case? Geeze, guys, let the lady ask her questions! It doesn't seem like a high tech tank to me either. Don't let them keep you down, Tiger!


Because this is not a hi tech forum and it is not a low tech forum and it is not a soil subtrate forum- it is the "EL Natural" forum where people are trying to follow a specific method as best they can.

People who have questions about ferts and c02 and lighting _should_ be directed to another forum because they will get more hits and replies to their questions from people who are into those regimes. It is for their benefit to be redirected.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Fine, then PM her and let her know. I don't understand why half the people here have to be so rude about it.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

If you do try to ask questions on the general forums about soil tanks you get referred to the el natural forum as that is where the topic of soil substrates gets talked about. The dividing line between theories falls in the methodology of providing the plants the nutrients that they need, one is a root fed system the other is a water column fed system. you don't go to the water column guys to get your root fed questions answered. I don't understand all of this recent bickering about whether or not it's a real natural tank. we all have experiences to share whether you follow the El Natural system to the letter of the book or you vary a little. some natural waterways have CO2 levels over 20ppm would you also consider those to be unnatural? This is the first forum that I found where I could mention dirt in the tank and not get laughed out of my chair. I'm sorry if I started using soil in my tanks before Diana wrote the book on it, but soil used to be the accepted way to set up an aquarium. I really don't think they had canister filters and the other things we take for granted back in the 1800's let alone 1665 in London where one of the first written reports of an aquarium dates to. If the talk of non perfect natural tanks offends anyone maybe we need a non El Natural dirt forum. Personally I think it's fine the way it is.

Brian


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

dymndgyrl said:


> Because this is not a hi tech forum and it is not a low tech forum and it is not a soil subtrate forum- it is the "EL Natural" forum where people are trying to follow a specific method as best they can.
> 
> People who have questions about ferts and c02 and lighting _should_ be directed to another forum because they will get more hits and replies to their questions from people who are into those regimes. It is for their benefit to be redirected.


Unfortunately it is the only place that has knowledge of soil substrate issues which is what her tank has. CO2 works wonderfully in a soil tank, The ferts I agree with you on, there is no need for them with the soil substrate. if you are going to use ferts then why bother with the soil.

In response to tigerlillys original thread; my only suggestion would be to cut down the light to about 2WPG and forget the ferts. I run some of my tanks with CO2 and some without but I enjoy the low maintenance on all of them. I can ignore my tanks for weeks with out any problems.



> Fine, then PM her and let her know. I don't understand why half the people here have to be so rude about it.


The rudeness seems to me to be a recent phenomena that is uncharacteristic for APC and I hope it goes away.

Brian


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## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

bpimm said:


> The ferts I agree with you on, there is no need for them with the soil substrate. if you are going to use ferts then why bother with the soil.


Because that was what I was "told I had to do" with my plants in order to keep them alive under my current lighting. I got the lighting I have because I was "told I my plants wouldn't live without it" 
So there for go.

I'm not new the aquarium hobby but I am new to planted aquariums. Now I know why so few aquarists do planted tanks, because they can't take weeding through all the bickering and rules of the fellow planted tank aquarists that are *supposed* to be helping them. I mean, come on!


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

I hope the bickering (which is a bit unusual on this forum) doesn't turn you away from planted tanks. In my experience there's more than one way to set up a healthy and stable planted tank. High-tech, low-tech, in-between, etc. Some of my healthiest tanks break a few "rules" that are often mentioned on these forums. Some people like sticking with a tried and true method and others like to tinker and experiment. There's definitely room for both on this forum.

I'm curious to see how your tank will turn out. Good luck!


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

TigerLilly said:


> I was wondering if my plants will need fertilizers, how much CO2, and what amount of water changes being under 2.9watts per gallon of light?


If you "go by the book" from Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ then you will not need special fertilizers or CO2, and water changes will rarely need to be done (like every 3-6 months). If you go with a more hybrid approach where you mix and match elements from Walstad's book and the high-tech folks, then things are not as clear and you may need to experiment a bit to find what works best for your particular tank.



TigerLilly said:


> I currently have root tabs for my melon sword. No other ferts used. I don't have fish in there right now.


Once you start adding fishfood to the tank, that should be more than enough nutrition for a root feeder like a swordplant.



TigerLilly said:


> I use three DIY 2liter CO2 bottles on my 55gal tank. Do I need to increase this?


Most folks on this forum who go by the Walstad method do _not _use DIY or pressurized CO2 of any kind, and have very healthy tanks. So I see no reason to add more. Injecting CO2 is not necessary, and in some cases might actually be detrimental in the long run (rapid growth might deplete substrate nutrients or build up toxins in the substrate). There is a good discussion about this a while back on this forum, but I can't seem to find it right now. I know some people have used DIY CO2 temporarily only during the beginning of the tank's life, to help get the plants settled in faster. This is another option, so you may decide down the road to remove your DIY CO2.



TigerLilly said:


> Is it possible to overdose CO2? If so, what happens?


Absolutely. Above a certain threshold fish start to "suffocate". I think most high-tech folks recommend staying below 40 ppm (but don't quote me on that). It is definitely possible to overdose CO2, even with DIY CO2. CO2 also lowers pH, so even without fish in the tank, the water parameters might be inhospitable for some plants if CO2 is too high.



TigerLilly said:


> I was also thinking about getting the Hagen Plant Grow Natural System with CO2. Is this system worth it compared to DIY?


It is the same thing as DIY CO2, just packaged nicely, and the diffuser thing works pretty well, according to some people. Judging by its size, I would guess it doesn't produce as much CO2 per minute as one of your 2-liter bottles, but I may be wrong.



TigerLilly said:


> Right now I'm having problems with blue-green algae and hair algae mostly. I have a relatively low plant mass. I will be getting more plants today.


I've found the algae section of this website very helpful for diagnosing causes and some solutions to particular algae problems. With the low-tech approach, adding a lot of rooted and floating plants is usually the single most important course of action, combined with patience .



TigerLilly said:


> I want to use seachem flourish excel but I can't find it in my lfs. I don't want to buy it online because it cost $14 a bottle (for a small bottle), including the shipping. I just can't bring myself to pay that for a small bottle of it. Should I use regular flourish instead? What are the differences between the two?


Excel and regular Flourish are very different products. Excel basically provides carbon, while regular Flourish provides a lot of other nutrients (but not carbon). In my experience Excel is great for very small tanks (5 gallons or less) because it is economical for that size and provides most of the benefits of injecting CO2. For larger tanks, I think it would get very expensive very quickly. For bigger tanks, you will get a similar benefit as Excel at a fraction of the cost simply by using DIY CO2 or even the Hagen thing you mentioned earlier.



TigerLilly said:


> This tank is semi-el natural. I would prefer to not have to dose ferts daily. Weekly at most. I will not buy pressurized CO2. Can't afford it right now. I prefer for this tank to be semi-low maintenance. Under 2.9watts per gallon is this possible?


Your goals are definitely achievable. I think you would enjoy reading Walstad's book, if you haven't already. I highly recommend it. I think it might answer a lot of your questions. And the stickies on this forum are also very helpful.



TigerLilly said:


> I currently have these plants in my tank&#8230;
> 1 melon sword
> 1 large ball java moss
> 1 medium-small size java fern
> ...


These should all be just fine for your setup. Most of them are pretty hardy and do well in low-tech low-maintenance tanks, and will probably do well in yours too. I wouln't be too concerned with getting the light, fertilizers, CO2, etc. "perfect" because these plants aren't that fussy. You ultimate low-tech approach is to simply plant them all and then let the plants sort it out - some will live, some might die off, but eventually the plants that you end up with after 3-6 months will be there to stay.


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## bpimm (Jun 12, 2006)

TigerLilly said:


> Because that was what I was "told I had to do" with my plants in order to keep them alive under my current lighting. I got the lighting I have because I was "told I my plants wouldn't live without it"
> So there for go.
> 
> I'm not new the aquarium hobby but I am new to planted aquariums. Now I know why so few aquarists do planted tanks, because they can't take weeding through all the bickering and rules of the fellow planted tank aquarists that are *supposed* to be helping them. I mean, come on!


I understand your plight, forgive me if I came across harsh to you, I was trying to calm the rudeness down a notch or two. like littleguy said the bickering is uncharacteristic on this forum. your light may be a little high although I think it should work, with that much light, plant as many fast growers as you can to start out even if you don't want them in the final tank layout. if you can remove some of the lighting during startup it may help with the algae problems and keep up with the CO2 at least for now. I use it and don't feel the need to go to CO2 anonymous meetings.  it can also allow you to grow a wider variety of plants. What kind of light is it? maybe you could remove 1 or 2 tubes for the time being. I have run 3WPG on soil tanks before with CO2 and had great results.

Don't give up and keep us posted on the tank.

Brian


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## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

bpimm said:


> I understand your plight, forgive me if I came across harsh to you, I was trying to calm the rudeness down a notch or two.


Although I was quoting you I was only referencing you in the first paragraph, the second paragraph was directed at no one in particular. Forgive me for not noting that.



bpimm said:


> I think it should work, with that much light, plant as many fast growers as you can to start out even if you don't want them in the final tank layout. if you can remove some of the lighting during startup it may help with the algae problems


I added water sprite recently. I also added flourish excel, 10 long-fin zebra danios, a apple snail, two otos, and three black mollies (1 male, 2 female) The algae is getting much better.



bpimm said:


> and keep up with the CO2 at least for now. I use it and don't feel the need to go to CO2 anonymous meetings.  it can also allow you to grow a wider variety of plants.


I think I'm getting too much CO2 into the tank now because my fish are gasping at the surface of the water. I added a airstone to help him breathe. I haven't noticed the plants pearling though. Confusing. 



bpimm said:


> What kind of light is it? maybe you could remove 1 or 2 tubes for the time being. I have run 3WPG on soil tanks before with CO2 and had great results.


It is two shop lights from home depot. Each has two 40 watt fluorescent bulbs in them. I realize that although this would equal 160 watts total, that is not the actual amount of light my plants will be getting because that shop lights are designed to spread the light out to light up a room, thereby not directly it all down into the tank. I just want to be able to keep my plants alive and happy. My glosso is growing vertical, kinda. I know it is supposed to grow horizontal.


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## TigerLilly (Feb 11, 2007)

littleguy said:


> If you "go by the book" from Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ .


I really want to get that book. Can I get it from a local book store like borders or barnes and nobles? How much is it? I'll have to save up for it, as I just spent my money on fish, fertizilers, and plants.



littleguy said:


> Once you start adding fishfood to the tank, that should be more than enough nutrition for a root feeder like a swordplant..


I added fish. I have 10 long-fin zebra danios, 2 otos, 3 black mollies (1 male, 2 female), and a apple snail. I now have a total of four swords now. 1 melon, 3 amazion.



littleguy said:


> Absolutely. Above a certain threshold fish start to "suffocate". I think most high-tech folks recommend staying below 40 ppm (but don't quote me on that). It is definitely possible to overdose CO2, even with DIY CO2...


so I've noticed.



littleguy said:


> CO2 also lowers pH, so even without fish in the tank, the water parameters might be inhospitable for some plants if CO2 is too high...


That's a good thing in my case. I have very hard water (500ppm+) with a high ph, around 8.4-8.6 I added driftwood to this tank to hopefully lower it a bit. I'm hoping the CO2 will help with this also.



littleguy said:


> You ultimate low-tech approach is to simply plant them all and then let the plants sort it out - some will live, some might die off, but eventually the plants that you end up with after 3-6 months will be there to stay.


that's the hard part for me. I have a hard time buying a plant and watching it slowly die.


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

TigerLilly said:


> I really want to get that book. Can I get it from a local book store like borders or barnes and nobles? How much is it? I'll have to save up for it, as I just spent my money on fish, fertizilers, and plants.


I think you have to order it online, I've never seen it locally. I got mine at Amazon a couple years ago and it was well worth it. I just checked, the current price there is $23 plus shipping, so it's not a budget buster.


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