# Switching from gravel sub to dirted - have some questions



## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Hi everyone,
I’ve been lurking here for a while, enjoying the posts in a lot of the forums, not just here in El Natural. I’ve finally decided to convert my 29g gravel substrate tank to a dirted tank. I have EPA and have been reading it, although most of the scientific stuff goes right over my head. I understand the concepts and how everything in the tank interacts with each other, but chemistry/physical science was never in my wheelhouse in school. My tank has been established for about 10 years and I successfully grow plants in the gravel substrate, I’m guessing mostly due to the 10+ years of gunk that sits just below the surface. 😊 I do dose with liquid fertilizers and root tabs but have never achieved the lush growth that I want. I have a cannister filter and a couple power heads that keep the water moving and it’s heated to 77°F. Currently it’s injected with CO2 with a probe and monitor set to keep pH at 7.0. Lighting is a Fluval Fresh&Plant LED controlled by wifi. My current fish load is one Blue Gourami, 11 cardinal tetras, five Trumpet snails and two Ottos. I was about to give up on this tank because of an algae problem that I could never get rid of. I recently did a redo on the plants and removed the ones with the worst algae. I figured that this would be a good point to convert to a dirted tank. In anticipation of this change I’ve also ordered some Crypt Lucens, Bacopa Caroliniana, Scarlet Temple, Dwarf Chain Sword, Moneywort, Ammannia Gracilis, Staurogyne Repens and Dwarf Sagittaria. These will join Anubias Nana (tied to small piece of driftwood), Water Sprite, Water Lettuce, Amazon Sword, Hornwort and Crypt Wendtti already in the tank. Basically I’ll be throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

The organic soil I’ve chosen is Miracle-Gro Raised Bed Soil. According to the label it’s made up of peat, processed forest products and/or compost, poultry litter, alfalfa meal, bone meal, kelp meal and earthworm castings. Total nitrogen is 0.09%
• 0.008% ammoniacal nitrogen
• 0.028% other water soluble nitrogen
• 0.054% water insoluble nitrogen (from poultry litter, alfalfa meal and kelp meal)
Available phosphate is 0.08%
Soluble potash is 0.09%
Calcium is 0.02%
I don’t have the time or space to mineralize this soil and this was the least fertilized that I could find.

I’m going to mix the soil with plain cat litter (non-clumping, nothing added) and cap it with CaribSea Super Naturals Peace River gravel. It measures 1.0-2.0mm and looks pretty nice.
Before I make the switch I decided to do a little testing to see what all these ingredients do to my tap water. Currently I have a glass with just water; a glass with water, soil and gravel; a glass with water, soil, litter and gravel; and a glass with water, soil, litter and pinch of crushed oyster shell. For the last two I mixed the soil/litter at 50/50. Soil and gravel layers are both 1 inch deep. I want to see what happens to my pH, KH and GH in each combination of ingredients. I’m still waiting for my test kit to arrive so I’ll post those results later. Once I have my “recipe” sorted out it’s off to the races! My plan is to use my canister filter (for the bacteria) and some of the old gravel in a mesh bag to jumpstart the bacteria growth and help with cycling. I also plan to increase my fish load as it seems these tanks do better with more fish contributing nutrients, yes?

I have some questions regarding the initial setup…
When measuring the soil depth, do you measure “dry” or after some water has been added and it has settled a little?
Do you add the plants before or after adding the gravel cap? It seems to me that with stem plants they should go in before the cap and the swords should go in after so as not to bury the crown, yes?
Is there any benefit to using the old tank water?
Is there any benefit to continue the CO2 injection until plants start showing growth?
Any red flags that you more experienced members see in my choice of soil mix or plan in general?

Thanks in advance for any help! I’m excited to see how this goes!
Scott


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC! You have really done your homework, and setting up the ingredient test is a great idea. Your questions:

When measuring the soil depth, do you measure "dry" or after some water has been added and it has settled a little?
_Usually there usually is not enough difference to matter, especially if you stick with the recommended 1" and 1"._

Do you add the plants before or after adding the gravel cap? It seems to me that with stem plants they should go in before the cap and the swords should go in after so as not to bury the crown, yes?
_I always start with soil and gravel in place before I plant. I also like to have the tank at least half full of water to support the plants. Using forceps, grab the roots or base of stem and insert through the gravel into the soil. If the plant seems too deep, gently pull it upward. Truly, planting too deep is rarely a problem except with epiphytes like Anubias that do not want their rhizomes covered._

Is there any benefit to using the old tank water?
_No._

Is there any benefit to continue the CO2 injection until plants start showing growth?
_In a Walstad tank you will have abundant natural CO2 from the start, tapering off as the soil stabilizes. This is especially true with a highly organic soil such as Miracle Grow. Don't use the CO2._

Any red flags that you more experienced members see in my choice of soil mix or plan in general?
_Your plan sounds great. Please post the results of your jar tests. And remember, not all species of plants will grow in all tanks. You are starting with a good variety, but some will fail to thrive. This is normal--take those out and stick with the strong growers._


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks Michael, I appreciate your response. I'll post my jar results later tonight after my test kit arrives. I'm excited to move forward with this and see where it goes!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Here are the results of my jar tests:
Plain tap water - pH 6.74 4*dKH 2*dGH
Tap water + soil + gravel - pH 6.69 3*dKH 2*dGH
Tap water + soil + litter + gravel - pH 6.62 3*dKH 2*dGH
Tap water + soil + litter + oyster shell + gravel - pH 6.62 3*dKH 3*dGH
I used Sera test kits for the hardness and my pH monitor and probe for pH. 

pH was measured one day after setting up the samples, and hardness was measured today so two days after setting up the samples. I did test the pH in the last sample today and it had risen to 6.69 so that tells me the soil is releasing CO2 into the water.

I’m not completely sure how to interpret the test results but looks to me like my water is on the soft side and I should opt for the mix with the oyster shell even though it didn’t change things that much. I only added a pinch for the test so when I set up my tank I’ll make sure and add plenty. Should I be aiming for a GH of 6-8?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks! Your results are probably within the normal margin of error for your test kit and pH meter (unless it is a really good one!). In other words, you have soft, slightly acidic water and none of the different conditions has made significant difference in the short term.

Rising levels of CO2 cause pH to go down, not up. So the oyster shell in the last jar may have actually had a small effect. But oyster shell works slowly over a period of weeks or months, so it is too early to tell much. Given the chemistry of your tap water, it is still a good idea to use oyster shell.

It is difficult to change water chemistry much over time. Your tap water is fine, just add some oyster shell and work with whatever chemistry results.

One last suggestion, do a soak and drain cycle on your soil before you put it in the tank. This will remove any annoying floaters and reduce the excess fertility a little.

Good luck!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks again Michael...I really appreciate your input! I'm hoping to make the transition this weekend so I'll try to document along the way and post the results.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Yesterday I made the switch. Netting the fish took longer than I thought it would! [smilie=l:
Once I got them all out, they went into a bucket with the tank water, a mesh bag with some original gravel and the filter running. I also put the hornwort and water lettuce in there to give them some cover while I tore down the tank. All the other plants went into another bucket and then the fun began!

Here's the tank all cleaned out and ready for dirt.
[URL=https://app.photobucket.com/u/maico996/a/6ffe0afb-5c08-44db-b079-ac0c6db7a20f/p/115d7d39-01ff-4af6-9776-05a3866127e0]







[/URL]

First layer of soil mixed with cat litter. I did one scoop of soil and about a 1/2 - 3/4 scoop of litter until the mix was one inch deep.


Next I added some crushed oyster shell. Not sure how much, just enough to cover the layer.


CaribSea gravel added to a depth of one inch.


Plants are in, ready for water.


Adding water was the slowest part of the setup. I used a 4-cup measuring cup and slowly poured it directly onto the driftwood so it wouldn't disturb the gravel. Once I got it about 2/3 full I switched to a siphon which sped things up considerably. Filling the tank took me about an hour. I added the gravel sock and put the filter back in place and started it up to help jumpstart the bacteria. I'll turn it off once things start growing. I also added three capfuls of Seachem Stability. Put the fish back in and everything seems fine. All in all, the whole process took me about five hours.


As of this morning my water isn't cloudy and I have no floaters from the top soil. I did not wet or rinse the soil first, just mixed it with litter and put it in the tank. I'll post more photos once things start to fill in.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Looking good!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

I removed the gravel sock this morning. Tonight I think I'll remove one of the media baskets from the filter, and probably the other one tomorrow night. I'll just be using the filter for water flow at that point.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looks like a very promising start! Soil/gravel layer not too thick, a little calcium source, good plants, etc.

You should see plant growth within the first week.

Minor point... It looks like the stems of your _Bacopa caroliniana_ are all bunched together. If they are, I would separate the stems a bit to give them more room to spread out.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> Looks like a very promising start! Soil/gravel layer not too thick, a little calcium source, good plants, etc.
> 
> You should see plant growth within the first week.
> 
> Minor point... It looks like the stems of your _Bacopa caroliniana_ are all bunched together. If they are, I would separate the stems a bit to give them more room to spread out.


Thanks for the response Diana! I'll separate those as you suggest. Your book has been a great resource even though some of it reads like a foreign language to me.  Looking forward to watching everything fill in over the next few weeks.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Yesterday I removed both filter baskets from my canister filter, so now it’s a glorified water pump. 
Things are looking good so far. I added more water lettuce and the Amazon Sword is really starting to take off. I’ll post more pictures soon.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It's been a week since my conversion to el natural and I'm having a little bit of green water. Nothing out of control yet but I did get some more water lettuce. It all congregates at one end of the tank...should I try to adjust the flow to get it circulating around more? Is a water change necessary at this point or should I just let the plants do their thing for a while longer and see if it goes away?

Also have this very thin film on the water surface...should I be concerned about this? When I feed the fish it kind of breaks up into smaller "pieces".


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Tank is still young and soil is releasing a lot of DOC (dissolved organic carbon). 

For this new tank, temporary tank cleaning is called for. Later on, when tank is established, you can relax.

I would remove the surface biofilm and do a water change.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> Tank is still young and soil is releasing a lot of DOC (dissolved organic carbon).
> 
> For this new tank, temporary tank cleaning is called for. Later on, when tank is established, you can relax.
> 
> I would remove the surface biofilm and do a water change.


Thanks again for your response. After the water change would you suggest installing the filter baskets back into the filter with only the mechanical media for now until things settle down in a few weeks?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't think the baskets will make much difference in your situation. If the particles causing the cloudiness are algae or bacteria (1-10 micron in size), the typical mechanical filter isn't going to filter them out. If it's clay particles from the soil, the added filtration might be helpful. You could try it and see....


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It's been about two weeks since I converted to el natural. I've done a couple water changes and the GWA is starting to decrease. I am getting some hair algae but it's not too bad at the moment. Most plants are doing really well but I can see a couple that are struggling a little. Not gonna worry about it at this point and let the tank take its course. I removed the canister filter completely and have two power heads providing some water flow. The biofilm seems to have disappeared too. I've also added some Rummynose Tetras. They're doing great and are a lot of fun to watch. I also added three Amano Shrimp but I'm pretty sure the Gourami ate them. I may have to find a new home for that one as I'd really like to have some shrimp in my tank.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Quick update on the MIA shrimp...all three are hiding behind my heater. 😊


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

They better hide or the gourami will eat them. When I had congo tetras, I didn't see the amanos. My tank is full of small fish now and the amanos are out all the time.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Tank has improved nicely! Water is clear and fish look healthy. 

Nice job!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Four weeks since I converted to El Natural and things are going pretty good. I added some more plants at the beginning of this week and most everything is doing well. I do have a little green algae on the glass but nothing too bad. I’m gonna scrape it off and do another water change. I’ve also been poking the substrate to help keep things oxygenated. My question is regarding the Hornwort. It’s becoming a many-tentacled mass of a plant and I’m just wondering how much longer I should leave it in my tank? I got it to help the tank get established but didn’t really plan on keeping it unless absolutely necessary.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Hornwort does that. If the other plants are growing well, you can start taking the hornwort out. Remove about 1/3 of it and watch for unwanted changes for a week or two. If everything is good, take another third out, wait another week, then remove any that is left.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Michael said:


> Hornwort does that. If the other plants are growing well, you can start taking the hornwort out. Remove about 1/3 of it and watch for unwanted changes for a week or two. If everything is good, take another third out, wait another week, then remove any that is left.


Thanks for the advice Michael!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It's been about two months now so I thought I'd post an update. It seems the plants are struggling a bit. The only thing doing really well are snails and water lettuce. The rest of the inhabitants are doing fine, they just don't seem to multiply over night. :rofl:

Here's my tank as of today:


Quite a few of the foreground plants on the right have melted off which doesn't really worry me too much.

I am noticing some leaves are starting to develop pin holes which turn into big holes.



Since I found a new home for the gourami, my shrimp are out all the time and very active.


I tested my water again and the crushed oyster shell has increased hardness to gH5 and kH7. PH is 6.93.

The water lettuce seems very happy...almost too happy. It forms a carpet on the surface almost as fast as I can remove it so I'm wondering if it's reducing the light too much? How much water lettuce should I keep, or should I keep any at all now that the tank has been going for a couple months?



I removed the Horn Wort a few weeks ago with no ill effect on the tank so I'm wondering if I should do the same with the water lettuce? Any idea what is causing the holes in the leaves of some of the plants?
One of my stem plants tried to escape by uprooting itself and making a break for the surface. I see that the bottom of the stem is black which indicates an anaerobic condition in the soil so I'll start poking it again. Last time I poked it I wasn't getting many bubbles coming out and no foul odor. I also have a very healthy trumpet snail population so that should help get oxygenated water moving in the substrate.
Any suggestions on what else I can do to get things growing again, other than just having patience?

Thanks!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

You're right that plants aren't doing that well. Brown-tinted water and that dense floating plant cover is taking up lots of light. If rooted plants don't grow, they cannot protect themselves from an anaerobic substrate. 

I would remove one of those two pumps, thin out the floating plants by half, do a 50% water change, and temporarily lower the water level by 1/3. This will encourage emergent growth of your stem plants and get them going. 

Finally, you added a calcium source with the soil liming and it seems to have worked to get GH up. Very good! But your very soft water may not have enough potassium, a major nutrient. Symptoms of K deficiency are holes in the leaves. Salt substitute (KCl or potassium chloride) from the grocery store is about $1. I would mix 1/4 tsp of KCl with water and add the solution to your tank.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks for the suggestions Diana! Regarding the potassium chloride, should I be adding that periodically? Once a week? Once a month? I'm assuming the plants will be using it up over time and depleting it from the water column.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'd add it once a month or whenever you do a water change. Plants store excess potassium and what you'll be adding is an excess for the tank. I can't imagine that plants would need to be fed more than once a month. This is not a high-tech tank loaded with plants, so no need to fine-tune the dosage.

Main thing is: Let's get those plants growing!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It's been a while since I've posted an update so here goes. About six weeks ago I added quite a few more plants. Some of the plants are doing pretty good and others are still struggling so I continue to practice patience while things run their course.  Fish and shrimp are all healthy. What I'm struggling with now is algae. I have a little bit of green algae on the glass which I scrape off routinely, but it slowly returns. My main concern is what I believe to be Staghorn or BBA:

























It's only on a few of the plants and I've tried removing it with an old toothbrush but it doesn't come off very easily. My Fluval LED light is on a siesta schedule of 4hrs on, 3hrs off, 5hrs on, then off for the night 12hrs. I'm thinking I need to decrease the intensity so I'm going to drop it down to 80% and see if that has any effect. It also has a "cloud" setting which randomly varies the intensity as if clouds are passing in front of the sun so I may try that as well. My only concern is that I have a lot of water lettuce that already shades most of the tank so I worry that there won't be enough light if I decrease the intensity.
Any suggestions on how to deal with this and how to get rid of it?
Thanks in advance!
Scott


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

That’s bba. Easiest solution is trim off the affected leaves. It’s good that some of them turned light in color. They’re struggling to live or is dead.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> That’s bba. Easiest solution is trim off the affected leaves. It’s good that some of them turned light in color. They’re struggling to live or is dead.


Thanks for responding. Any suggestions to prevent it from returning?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The key is to trim dead leaves and keep the plants healthy. Too much iron can trigger bba. An imbalance in calcium, like too much can block nutrient uptake causing the lower stems to be attacked by bba. That’s my experience in my water.

bladder snails and mollies will eat the weakened bba. A water change helps remove algae spores too. Too bad this is.a dirt tank.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> The key is to trim dead leaves and keep the plants healthy. Too much iron can trigger bba. An imbalance in calcium, like too much can block nutrient uptake causing the lower stems to be attacked by bba. That’s my experience in my water.
> 
> bladder snails and mollies will eat the weakened bba. A water change helps remove algae spores too. Too bad this is.a dirt tank.


Thanks again for your response. Why too bad this is a dirt tank?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

it’s not recommended to change too much Water in a dirt tank.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I'm sorry that your tank isn't filled with _rooted_ plants. If you can't get _S. subulata_ to do better than this in your setup which otherwise seems fine, something is surely wrong. I think I know what's wrong, and I apologize for not catching it sooner. The kitty litter... Clay contains iron and aluminum that will react with an organic soil. Clay slowly released excess iron and/or aluminum into the substrate. Metal toxicity (in the substrate) is probably what is holding your rooted plants back. It could be causing holes in leaves and abnormal growth. In my book (p. 132), I advised against mixing soils because of potential metal toxicity. Folks, please try to keep substrates simple. Use an organic soil alone. When people plant houseplants, they don't add kitty litter to the potting soil. I don't know who started the idea of mixing kitty litter with organic soils for El Natural tanks but it is not a good idea. Attached is photo of my 5 gal tank after a couple months. No kitty litter, just plain old potting soil.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> I'm sorry that your tank isn't filled with _rooted_ plants. If you can't get _S. subulata_ to do better than this in your setup which otherwise seems fine, something is surely wrong. I think I know what's wrong, and I apologize for not catching it sooner. The kitty litter... Clay contains iron and aluminum that will react with an organic soil. Clay slowly released excess iron and/or aluminum into the substrate. Metal toxicity (in the substrate) is probably what is holding your rooted plants back. It could be causing holes in leaves and abnormal growth. In my book (p. 132), I advised against mixing soils because of potential metal toxicity. Folks, please try to keep substrates simple. Use an organic soil alone. When people plant houseplants, they don't add kitty litter to the potting soil. I don't know who started the idea of mixing kitty litter with organic soils for El Natural tanks but it is not a good idea. Attached is photo of my 5 gal tank after a couple months. No kitty litter, just plain old potting soil.


Thanks for responding Diana. Short of tearing the tank down and starting over, is there anything I can do to mitigate the effects of the clay litter?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I really hate to say this, but I think your best option is to tear down the tank and start over. That way, you will be able to salvage what's left of your plants. There's nothing I can think of that will stop the reaction between the organic matter and the clay. Right now the algae is taking over, because there just isn't enough plant growth.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> I really hate to say this, but I think your best option is to tear down the tank and start over. That way, you will be able to salvage what's left of your plants. There's nothing I can think of that will stop the reaction between the organic matter and the clay. Right now the algae is taking over, because there just isn't enough plant growth.


The answer I feared the most..........but the answer I expected. Thanks again Diana. Looks like I may have a free Sunday this weekend so I'll tackle this tank again with nothing added to the soil except a layer of crushed oyster shell between the soil and gravel. Most of my plants are doing ok so I'll have quite a few to restart with.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It sounds like a good plan. I'm glad that you still have some plants to start out with. Let's hope this works and plants take off!


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## GadgetGirl (Sep 25, 2013)

dwalstad said:


> I really hate to say this, but I think your best option is to tear down the tank and start over. That way, you will be able to salvage what's left of your plants. There's nothing I can think of that will stop the reaction between the organic matter and the clay. Right now the algae is taking over, because there just isn't enough plant growth.


Would using OilDri or SafTsorb as a cap (not mixed in the soil) cause any issues like this? Other than the temporary pH and alkalinity drop?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

GadgetGirl said:


> Would using OilDri or SafTsorb as a cap (not mixed in the soil) cause any issues like this? Other than the temporary pH and alkalinity drop?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


My understanding is that anything clay-based has the potential to release bad things into the substrate or the water.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I have a small 5G tank with a baked clay cap. It's still running fine years later. If your tank is growing fine with a clay cap, I'd leave it alone.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Most of my tanks have Safe-T-Sorb as a cap and often mixed with the soil layer of the substrate.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

maico996 said:


> My understanding is that anything clay-based has the potential to release bad things into the substrate or the water.


Clay and STS alone are not toxic. Still, they don't make good pure substrates. They have no nutrients or organic matter. In contrast, a clay garden soil is fine, because it contains nutrients, bacteria, and small amounts of organic matter, but kitty litter is just inert clay. 

As a cap, STS is okay as long as it doesn't mix too much with an organic soil that is very fresh and very reactive. Michael mineralizes his organic soils beforehand so they are less reactive. Mineralization dampens down the humic acid release when the soil is actually put into the tank. The soil is "tamed down" beforehand. Also, clays have different chemical compositions, some have more accessible aluminum and iron than others. STS and kitty litter are both clays, but STS as a cap seems to work fine for Michael and others. Not as sure about kitty litter....


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## alisonc (Mar 28, 2021)

I’m no expert, but have had good success with dirtied tanks. I have pretty hard water and kept the substrate really simple just using bagged commercially available Top Soil with no added chemicals or fertilisers of any sort.. I cap with inert gravel. I keep the depth of soil to no more than an inch, and the gravel about half in inch. I did have a problem with my first 24 gallon because the grain size of the gravel was too small and ended up with brown water with soil particles in the water column for a week or so, but it all settled out and the tank is now over four years old and am delighted with it. I didnt add any rocks or wood as I find inert objects just create opportunities for hair algae. I did plant VERY heavily with Sagittarius, Crypts, and Echinodorus. I used water lettuce to soak up excess chaotic nutrients during the initial period, which for me seems to go on for 12 weeks. After that the floating plants roots don’t grow nearly so well and I drastically reduced. I now have a SMALL amount of guppy grass as a safety net to soak up excess nutrients as floating plants cut out too much light and harbour surface gunk. I have lights on for 10 hours broken by a four hour siesta. I’ve not been very adventurous, but find keeping it simple and heavily planted works very well.


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## alisonc (Mar 28, 2021)

My two tanks. The deeper one is 24gals with 2 watts per gallon lighting. The shallower one is 10 gals which has done OK so far with one watt per gallon lighting, but recently upgraded to two watts as the light bar needed replacing but couldn’t replace with equivalent to original light. Not very interesting as an aquascape, but I just wanted a tank with healthy plants after years and years of not being able to keep any plants alive! Diana’s method has revolutionised what was becoming a tedious drudge into a delightful hobby again. The fish are all Endlers. Amano Shrimps, MTS and Ramshorn Snails help keep it all clean too.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for posting pictures and your story. Lovely tanks with good plant growth. That's what one should expect with a "no-fuss" dirt setup.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It's been a while since I've posted in this thread so here's an update.
If you've read this then you know my tank has struggled for quite some time. I made the mistake of adding plain non-clumping cat litter to my soil which caused all kinds of problems. Thankfully quite a few plants managed to survive for quite some time. I recently moved into a new home so took the opportunity to start over. I broke down the tank, moved it and all the inhabitants to our new house and began again. This time just dirt, some crushed oyster shell for hardness and gravel cap. The dirt is the same as before...Miracle Gro Raised Bed organic soil. I didn't mineralize it, just put it in at a depth of one inch and capped it with an inch of the same gravel as before. Used what plants I had and added a bunch of new ones. Today has been almost two weeks since I redid the tank and I added some more rooted plants. I had some biofilm and cloudy water for about a week so I soaked the film off the surface with paper towels and did a couple water changes. Film is gone, cloudiness is going away, most plants are showing some growth, and the fish and shrimp are all doing fine. I live in the Pacific NW and have soft water so I've been using Wonder Shells to help raise hardness. I do have a few plants melting but that's to be expected with a new setup. Also had a little bit of algae but that's going away too. I'm not worried, just gonna let it take its course and see where we end up. I'll post more photos as things progress.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Fabulous. Love the _anubias_ centerpiece; they're indestructible. Anxious to see which of the rooted plants really take off.

Where are the fish?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Maico996, Looks like a very promising start! It will be interesting to see how the tank develops. 

(I've always suspected that mixing kitty litter with an organic soil was a bad idea. Aluminum toxicity, iron toxicity, etc.?)


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

johnwesley0 said:


> Fabulous. Love the _anubias_ centerpiece; they're indestructible. Anxious to see which of the rooted plants really take off.
> 
> Where are the fish?


They don't much like the camera... but they come out every now and then for a photo.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You have some fat female rummynose there. Do they mate?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Look like very healthy fish--and well-fed.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> You have some fat female rummynose there. Do they mate?


I've never seen any babies so I don't think so.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

I’ve never seen this before. It’s on the glass and a leaf. Looks like a combination of spider web and veins.
















Any ideas what it might be?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

looks like slime mold





16.11. Slime Mold







aquariumscience.org




.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> looks like slime mold
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!!
_"They feed on microorganisms that live in any type of dead plant material. They contribute to the decomposition of dead vegetation and wood, and feed on bacteria, yeasts, and fungi. They do* NOT* indicate anything wrong in a tank and are not caused by over-feeding or bad water chemistry."_
More wonders of the natural world...


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I didn't know slime mold lives in water. Nature is always a surprise.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

And it moves around quite a bit. Yesterday I took those pictures in the morning. When I came home for lunch it was completely gone, as if it had never been there. Today it's moved to another part of the glass at the front of the tank. It's very interesting...


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

I love when our tanks gift us with free new pets!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Wow! I've never seen this before. I wonder if it is some kind of bacterial biofilm. Some bacteria have all kinds of population signaling and do move around. I can imagine that some bacteria species at a low population density might live in the coiled pattern you show rather than as a thin gauze sheet. I don't think mold would live on the glass but only on dead plant or wood matter, but bacteria taking up nutrients from the water could live on the glass?? 

Bacteria populations come and go, so this one may eventually disappear. But while it lives, it is indeed a fascinating new pet.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It's been about six weeks since I started this tank over so thought I'd post another update. Things are going much better this time around. Good plant growth and all the residents seem to be doing fine. I've been removing the water lettuce as it continually takes over and carpets the top. Thinking it's about time to remove it completely so I don't have to keep scooping it out. I do have some hair algae, especially on the Anubias and some green algae on the glass but I'm not too concerned, just letting things do their things.  The slime mold has mostly gone away but I still see a little every now and then. I haven't done any major water changes for a while, just topping off as the water evaporates. I'll do some trimming in the next few days and see how things shape up.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Parameters?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beautiful! 

I would not change anything that you are doing. Keep scooping out the Water Lettuce, but don't remove it entirely. Be grateful for the Water Lettuce; it is protecting your fish from contaminants and your plants from algae. 

What a pleasure to see your tank photos this morning!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

johnwesley0 said:


> Parameters?


Honestly I haven't tested the water in quite some time. Last time I did it was for hardness and ammonia. Hardness was up to acceptable levels (can't remember what they were) considering my Pacific Northwest water is very soft out of the faucet. A thin layer of crushed oyster shell added to the dirt and the occasional Wonder Shell have helped increase hardness. Ammonia was at zero. I do have a pH monitor which was left over from the days when I injected CO2 so I see that every day. Currently it's right around 8 but varies slightly up and down as the CO2 levels increase and decrease throughout the day. The thing I've found with testing is that it can lead down some deep, dark rabbit holes. What I've learned from this forum is that the flora and fauna are the best indicators of water parameters and if something gets out of whack nature will usually correct it with time and patience. I've been spending my time watching and enjoying my tank instead of stressing out about algae, parameters, weird things like slime mold, etc.



dwalstad said:


> Beautiful!
> 
> I would not change anything that you are doing. Keep scooping out the Water Lettuce, but don't remove it entirely. Be grateful for the Water Lettuce; it is protecting your fish from contaminants and your plants from algae.
> 
> What a pleasure to see your tank photos this morning!


Thank you Diana! It's been a long, strange trip to finally get to a tank with good growth and I sincerely appreciate all the advice you and others here have given me. I'll keep the Water Lettuce per your suggestion.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

maico996 said:


> What I've learned from this forum is that the flora and fauna are the best indicators of water parameters and if something gets out of whack nature will usually correct it with time and patience. I've been spending my time watching and enjoying my tank instead of stressing out about algae, parameters, weird things like slime mold, etc.


I thought I was the only one who felt this way. So, what makes you think you need a partial water change?


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

johnwesley0 said:


> I thought I was the only one who felt this way. So, what makes you think you need a partial water change?


From my update above..."I haven't done any major water changes for a while, just topping off as the water evaporates."
I probably won't do another water change for another month or so...just depends on what the tank is doing and how things are progressing.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

maico996 said:


> I'll do some trimming in the next few days and see how things shape up.


Ah, I over-analyzed. Not the first time. LOL.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

johnwesley0 said:


> Ah, I over-analyzed. Not the first time. LOL.


Lol! No worries! Sometimes I think overanalyzing is the foundation of our hobby! 😂


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Time for another update, but this time I need some advice. As you can see from the photos, BBA (I think) is slowly spreading. Aside from trimming the affected leaves, I'm not sure how to prevent it from coming back or why it's there in the first place. One thing I'm considering is removing the drift wood and Anubias. I'm wondering if there's just not enough overall plant mass in the tank to utilize all the nutrients released by the soil. I'm thinking that space would be better used by planting with S. Repens, Montecarlo or some other midground or foreground plants? Water Lettuce is still abundant and has once again formed a mat on the surface so I'll be scooping that out again.
Any advice on plant selection or other solutions is greatly appreciated!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Start trimming the algae off the plants. A water change will reduce the nutrients in the water. Maybe reduce the lights too. It looks like it's getting a bit too much sun from the window. I think the CO2 generated from the soil had dropped off as well, so the balance is off.

I did an experiment where I took the BBA-affected plants out of a nutrient rich tank and into a no nutrient tank, the BBA died off after a long period of time.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> Start trimming the algae off the plants. A water change will reduce the nutrients in the water. Maybe reduce the lights too. It looks like it's getting a bit too much sun from the window. I think the CO2 generated from the soil had dropped off as well, so the balance is off.
> 
> I did an experiment where I took the BBA-affected plants out of a nutrient rich tank and into a no nutrient tank, the BBA died off after a long period of time.


Thanks mistergreen. The brightness is actually quite a bit less than what you see in the photos. I adjusted the exposure a little to get more detail in the photos so the window is really blown out, looking brighter than it really is. The window has a shade on it that cuts the light quite a bit but not completely. I can put up a curtain so the siesta period is darker.
Regarding reducing the amount of light, that seems counterintuitive to a lot of what I've read here. Plants need light to process CO2 and grow, hopefully leaving little left over for algae. That's the reason for the siesta...to replenish CO2 levels during the siesta and provide another "dose" so plants can outcompete algae when the lights come back on. Based on all of that it seems to me that reducing the amount of light will make it easier for algae to have access to CO2 thus improving its chances of surviving. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

maico996 said:


> Regarding reducing the amount of light, that seems counterintuitive to a lot of what I've read here. Plants need light to process CO2 and grow, hopefully leaving little left over for algae.


I don't think excess CO2 is a common problem in Walstad tanks. The same siesta period that suspends photosynth_e_sis in an aquarium's plants suspends it in algae too. The way I understand it, however, the effect on algae is greater.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

CO2 generation from the dirt doesn't last forever whether you give it a siesta or not. You'll have to find a new procedure going forward, finding a balance of light, nutrients, and CO2. Algae don't need as much of the stuff that plants do, very little.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

It’s been quite a while since I’ve posted an update, so here’s an update. 😊
Plants are doing very well and seem to have sorted themselves out as to who thrives and who just slowly disappears. Trimmings get replanted regularly, and as you can see it’s long overdue for a pruning. Residents all seem to be enjoying the jungle. I do a 10 gallon water change every few months and just keep topping off for evaporation. I also put a piece of card stock over the back glass to help keep ambient light out during the siesta.


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## donnyray (5 mo ago)

maico996 said:


> It’s been quite a while since I’ve posted an update, so here’s an update. 😊
> Plants are doing very well and seem to have sorted themselves out as to who thrives and who just slowly disappears. Trimmings get replanted regularly, and as you can see it’s long overdue for a pruning. Residents all seem to be enjoying the jungle. I do a 10 gallon water change every few months and just keep topping off for evaporation. I also put a piece of card stock over the back glass to help keep ambient light out during the siesta.
> View attachment 75373


how did you manage to remove those bba?  beautiful tank.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

donnyray said:


> how did you manage to remove those bba?  beautiful tank.


Thank you! I think what helped the most was reducing the blue light from the spectrum. The overall intensity is at 70% (I think) and blue is at 3 or 5%...can't remember off the top of my head.
I still have a little algae here and there but it's mostly gone. BBA is completely gone. I also removed as much of the Duckweed as possible and added some Water Lettuce. The Duckweed was constantly forming a dense carpet on the surface which reduced the light significantly, which was inhibiting plant growth. I think this was also contributing to the algae growth.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Nice recovery! It looks to me like the plant composition has changed? I think as the soil ages and gives off less CO2, the tank selects for plants that are more efficient at using CO2.
I have to scoop up duckweed every week in some of my tanks. Annoying but less tedious than water changes.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks Diana! Yes, the plants have sorted it out amongst themselves. I've given up on trying to introduce new plants into the tank and just following along with what nature has decided upon. 😂


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

maico996 said:


> Thanks Diana! Yes, the plants have sorted it out amongst themselves. I've given up on trying to introduce new plants into the tank and just following along with what nature has decided upon. 😂


As well you should. 😁


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## Aquatic Meditation (5 mo ago)

This is a beautiful aquarium!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

So...catastrophe struck this weekend. No idea what happened but I had a massive meltdown. My wife says "Something's wrong with the fish tank...it stinks." I'm thinking to myself "It's probably nothing since it always 'smells' like a fish tank." Yesterday I go into the room where the tank sits and sure enough, something is NOT right. Water is dark and cloudy and the smell is bad. Upon further inspection, not many survivors. In fact, I'm sure there are no survivors. From what I can see all the shrimp are dead and I don't see any fish. I immediately started removing water and sucking up the bodies that I could see. I removed about 20 gallons of water and then I see a few of the Cardinal Tetras sitting on top of the plant mass and gasping at the surface. I knew there was a massive shortage of oxygen in the water so I started filling my bucket and aerating the new water as much as possible. Four buckets later and I did another 10 gallon change and removed a few more bodies. The tank was long overdue for a trim so I pruned a bunch of the stem plants which let more light in, and then I see a little flash of blue. At least one of the tetras is alive! Then I see my Otto on the glass. At least two survivors! In the back of the tank through the swords I see some more blue. Four of the Cardinal Tetras survived along with the Otto, so five fish total. Then I start looking at all the MTS and they're not moving, but lots of them are still stuck to the glass. I can see the Nerite on the gravel near the heater and it looks like a goner. Bladder snails must be like cockroaches because they're all doing their thing as if nothing happened. Assassin Snail seems to be fine too. I sit for a while watching for any MTS moving around and don't see any at all so I'm thinking I'll wait until this morning and see what's what. This morning most of them have gone underground! There's still a few hanging out on the glass by the heater. A few more on the gravel haven't moved at all so I'm assuming they've moved on to the great fish tank in the sky. I'm gonna keep monitoring the MTS and remove the dead ones.
All in all, I lost 7 Amano Shrimp, 7 Cardinal Tetras, 1 Harlequin Rasbora, 3 Rummy Nose Tetras, probably the Nerite, and who-knows-how-many MTS.
I'm at a loss for what could've caused this. The only thing I can think of is this: I recently bought some fish food that I thought was the same as what I usually buy - TetraMin Tropical Flakes. The container looked the same and I was in a hurry at the store. It turned out to be a 3-in-1 that had flakes, granules, and freeze-dried baby shrimp. I mixed all three together in my automated feeder instead of what I usually do which is mix flakes with some dried bloodworms. This 3-in-1 food is the only thing that has changed since I converted to a Walstad tank. Is it possible for freeze-dried shrimp to decay if they go uneaten and cause an ammonia spike which started a chain reaction, resulting in Death Soup?
I'm gonna let things settle for a week or so before adding more livestock. In the meantime, I'm going to add some dwarf sag and some more crypts and hope for the best.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Check if the dirt went anaerobic.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> Check if the dirt went anaerobic.


I don't think that's the issue. When I first redid the tank a while ago, I poked the soil religiously. I have nothing sitting on top of the gravel. Three really big swords, crypts, other assorted rooted plants, stem plants that grow like crazy, and a (previously) large population of MTS that spend a lot of their time burrowing in the substrate. I've not had any issues (aside from occasional algae) that would indicate problems with the soil. I did a little more digging regarding freeze-dried shrimp and seems if the fish eat them, or pieces of them, before they've had a chance to soak, the food can expand (rehydrate) inside the fish and cause serious issues. Or maybe in my case, a die off that started a chain reaction ammonia spike which nuked everything except the few that somehow survived. Whatever happened, I'll not be using freeze-dried shrimp anytime soon.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

This is an acute disaster--more than any fishfood could precipitate. What comes to my mind? Toxins from a leaky heater, neurotoxins (allelochemicals) released by dying algae, dying bacteria in a filter that has suddenly gone anaerobic, water change with new water containing chloramines or chlorine? 
I'm wondering if it was the heater. I've had 3 heaters go bad on me. I added one to a tub during a cold spell, and it must have leaked some kind of toxin overnight. In the morning, some guppies starting acting weird and a few died. 

Hope you figure this out. (I think you will.)


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

dwalstad said:


> This is an acute disaster--more than any fishfood could precipitate. What comes to my mind? Toxins from a leaky heater, neurotoxins (allelochemicals) released by dying algae, dying bacteria in a filter that has suddenly gone anaerobic, water change with new water containing chloramines or chlorine?
> I'm wondering if it was the heater. I've had 3 heaters go bad on me. I added one to a tub during a cold spell, and it must have leaked some kind of toxin overnight. In the morning, some guppies starting acting weird and a few died.
> 
> Hope you figure this out. (I think you will.)


Thanks for the input Diana. The heater was on my list of suspects, but it seems to be functioning fine. I'm not running any filter and I always treat my tap water with Seachem Prime before adding it to the tank. Regarding algae dying, do you think it would need to be a large rapid die-off, or something happening gradually? I ask because I did have some green algae on the glass and was just letting it do its thing, waiting for nature to resolve it. I don't treat algae with anything meant to kill it, just scrape it off the glass when it gets to be too annoying. Regarding the fish food, it's not the actual food that I think was the cause. Now that I think about it, a couple of the dead fish were missing their midsections, as if something had eaten only that part of the fish. That would seem to support the "expanding food inside the fish" theory that I had read about. Other people experienced a similar die-off after feeding fish with freeze-dried shrimp, having not let the food soak first. I'm still leaning towards a spike in ammonia caused by the dead fish that just spiraled out of control before I noticed it. But I will keep investigating and keep doing water changes until this subsides. This morning I noticed the survivors at the surface, not yet gasping, but definitely looking for more oxygen. I know CO2 increases at night after lights off, but I've never seen them at the surface in the mornings after lights on. I don't have an air stone so I just put a tube into the water and started my aerator until I can get an air stone later today. All fingers crossed!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dry shrimp and gluttonous fish! A few fish dying could definitely set off problems.
Aerator and air-stone should help.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

maico996 said:


> Thanks for the input Diana. The heater was on my list of suspects, but it seems to be functioning fine. I'm not running any filter and I always treat my tap water with Seachem Prime before adding it to the tank. Regarding algae dying, do you think it would need to be a large rapid die-off, or something happening gradually? I ask because I did have some green algae on the glass and was just letting it do its thing, waiting for nature to resolve it. I don't treat algae with anything meant to kill it, just scrape it off the glass when it gets to be too annoying. Regarding the fish food, it's not the actual food that I think was the cause. Now that I think about it, a couple of the dead fish were missing their midsections, as if something had eaten only that part of the fish. That would seem to support the "expanding food inside the fish" theory that I had read about. Other people experienced a similar die-off after feeding fish with freeze-dried shrimp, having not let the food soak first. I'm still leaning towards a spike in ammonia caused by the dead fish that just spiraled out of control before I noticed it. But I will keep investigating and keep doing water changes until this subsides. This morning I noticed the survivors at the surface, not yet gasping, but definitely looking for more oxygen. I know CO2 increases at night after lights off, but I've never seen them at the surface in the mornings after lights on. I don't have an air stone so I just put a tube into the water and started my aerator until I can get an air stone later today. All fingers crossed!


Not to play pity poker, but just to let you know "it can happen to anybody" - once upon a time, a weekend away and an automatic feeder full of dried pellets that was open a little (actually a lot) too wide led to a goldfish kill in the porcelain bowl. I'm convinced it wasn't the spoiled food that killed them but the fact that they couldn't stop eating until it was too late.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

johnwesley0 said:


> Not to play pity poker, but just to let you know "it can happen to anybody" - once upon a time, a weekend away and an automatic feeder full of dried pellets that was open a little (actually a lot) too wide led to a goldfish kill in the porcelain bowl. I'm convinced it wasn't the spoiled food that killed them but the fact that they couldn't stop eating until it was too late.


Yes, it can happen to anybody, and this is my second trip down this road. The first time was quite a while ago, before I converted my tank. I had a heater that failed and basically cooked everyone. By far the worst aquarium failure I've ever experienced. Definitely made me warry of running a heater again.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

They make external thermostats to control heaters. Heaters aren't precision devices anyway.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

maico996 said:


> Definitely made me warry of running a heater again.


I absolutely will not keep tropical fish in a room where the ambient temperature is less than 70 degrees all year-round.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

maico996 said:


> Yes, it can happen to anybody, and this is my second trip down this road. The first time was quite a while ago, before I converted my tank. I had a heater that failed and basically cooked everyone. By far the worst aquarium failure I've ever experienced. Definitely made me warry of running a heater again.


I don't trust heaters! I only run them in cold weather and try to keep temp above 70F. 
Moreover, I have all of my lights and heaters on power strips controlled by manual timers. That way, the light and heaters get switched on and off simultaneously. Heaters are never on at night.
When I feed fish, I touch the glass to crudely monitor any heating problems--too much or too little.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Just a quick update on my recent meltdown. Things have returned to normal in what was my Chernobyl Nuclear Meltdown of a tank. I still think it was the freeze-dried shrimp that started all of this, but I'll never know for sure. The five remaining fish are all fine and I've had a canary-in-the-coal-mine shrimp for the last couple of weeks...still doing its shrimply duties as it should. Snails...the many many many snails...are all fine and the floating plant population continues to procreate at an out-of-control rate. I removed some stem plants in favor of dwarf sag and some crypt axelrodi, which both seem to be settling in nicely. I'm recovering from recent shoulder surgery so no trips to the LFS for a while, so for now the population will remain at five fish, one shrimp, and 17,648 snails. 😂


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

Required photo. 😉


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Looking good for more fish when you are ready.


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