# El Natural Nano snail Breeder



## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

Hi All

I found this forum on El Natural off an apple snail website as i am trying to breed apple snails for my green spotted puffer fish.

So yesterday i rushed out and setup an nano El Natural style tank for breeding apple snails, the idea being that the three apple snail will mate and lay eggs above the water line then just before they hatch i will move the eggs to a baby raising tank. So to round it up, a 10L El Natural display tank with 3 apple snails, i read that the apple snails need at least 10L each, so i hoping that this will work 


























The guy at the garden shop said this potting soil has no chemicals or Fertilizers in so we will see if he was telling the truth or not.....

Put a small powerhead in to give a nice weak current around the tank and using a 5watt globe for a light source.

Comments suggestion and crits wellcome plz


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

Hey dr_juz: Welcome! Your little tank looks good! A little cloudy but that should clear up (or has it already?) I've heard of people keeping NPT shrimp tanks and fishless setups, but I don't think I've seen one set up for snails. Do apple snails eat plants? If so, would the point be to keep fast growing plants for the snails? Also, I can't tell from the pic, did you add gravel over the soil? What plants did you plant? 

Keep us posted!

-ricardo


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

How long have you had your snails? Is this your first attempt? Have you tested your water parameters to ensure a snail condusive environment? 
I'm not trying to trouble shoot your abilities or knowledge, just trying to help is all. 
As flagg asked, which went through my mind also was the gravel. It didn't look like you had any, which could cause dirty water issues at least.
Also, in one picture there was no top on the tank. I saw you were filling it, but it might be a good idea to put a top on there. Snails are travelers and could possibly get completely out, especially since your tank dosen't have a lip aroung the top.

flagg- The snails you buy from LFS's are generally a type of Pomacea bridgesii, aka Mystery Snail, Apple snail. It looks like dr_juz has this type. These type do not eat live healthy plants, buy generally will eat old, unhealthy, dead plants. I could go on and on.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

rohape said:


> flagg- The snails you buy from LFS's are generally a type of Pomacea bridgesii, aka Mystery Snail, Apple snail. It looks like dr_juz has this type. These type do not eat live healthy plants, buy generally will eat old, unhealthy, dead plants. I could go on and on.


Ah, thanks! I thought so. I just don't know much about snails, except that they make a good live food for my clown loaches!

-ricardo


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

flagg said:


> Ah, thanks! I thought so. I just don't know much about snails, except that they make a good live food for my clown loaches!
> 
> -ricardo


One thing i have to say that the fact that you would use apple snails as food kind of ticks me off. Why not use pod snails or ramshorn snails.

I can tell you that the pH in a planted tank is far to low for rasing apple snails. They need a pH of 7.6 or higher to make there shells strong enough to support them. Which is why most people who put them in planted tank don't get them to live as long as they could. That potting soil is going to make your pH too low to breed/care for them.

A good thing the way i see it. Would you use red cherry shrimp as food? I think not.

Please trying using a pest snail instead of these guys. As an ex-breeder i can tell you that these guys make way better pets than they do food.


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## flagg (Nov 29, 2004)

will5 said:


> One thing i have to say that the fact that you would use apple snails as food kind of ticks me off. Why not use pod snails or ramshorn snails.
> 
> I can tell you that the pH in a planted tank is far to low for rasing apple snails. They need a pH of 7.6 or higher to make there shells strong enough to support them. Which is why most people who put them in planted tank don't get them to live as long as they could. That potting soil is going to make your pH too low to breed/care for them.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but the fact that you jump to conclusions and accuse me of doing something I don't do, ticks me off. Who said that I feed apple snails to my clown loaches? Let me re-type it for you:

"I don't know much about snails, except that they make a good live food for my clown loaches!"

Now, where there does it say anything about apple snails? Really, please, did I miss something apart from your accusatory attitude?!

The only snails that my clowns eat are MTS and ramshorns.

Next time, try not to jump down my throat and take the time to read what was actually written; a simple "Do you feed your clowns apple snails?" would also suffice.

-ricardo


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

One thing I would recommend you do dr_juz, if you haven't, which some of us are patiently awaiting your response , is do some research on www.applesnail.net 
The site is a great resource for all your snail needs.  Even try the invert forums on here.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I'd like to chime in 
I have a NPT 5G tank just for shrimps & apple snails. The PH is 7.6. Things are well and dandy.
If your ph is too low, just add calcium carbonate of some sort (limestone, shells).. Pretty easy fix.
And the calcium is good for the inverts too.
I add calcium sulfate since I don't need to mess with my pH.

And I plan to feed excess snails to my b. histrionica... I have 2 batch of eggs waiting to hatch.. That's like 200 snails. I have no problem with it. It's nature. I plan to feed excess shrimps too.. I guess I can sell some. But they're reproducing fast.


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## Gilraen Took (Apr 19, 2007)

NOT joining anyone's side here, but Flagg, if you read the first post it says that the guy who set up the tank is using them as feeders for his fish, and will5, Flagg never said he used apples for his loaches. Just that snails in general make good feeders. 

I love my apple snails  They're so pretty ^_^ Then again I like ramshorns and MTS too, lol. I like inverts


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

> I found this forum on El Natural off an apple snail website as i am trying to breed apple snails for my green spotted puffer fish.


You did not mean breed them so they can be friends right???

Anyway i am sorry i should not have jumped in and posted on the fourm. I will just let it die without saying anything else.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

My thoughts on snails:

Most so-called apple snails are voracious plant eaters. As Rohape said, Pomacea bridgesii does not eat plants and is a "good" apple snail. Most of the others are not, unfortunately. I don't know if they are fit for human consumption, but that is the only good use for them. (Obviously I was "bitten" by one of the plant eaters.)

It is almost impossible to tell the few "good" apple snail species from the "bad" ones. Perhaps the best way is to put one in a planted aquarium and watch what happens. They are not shy feeders.

Snails need hard water. PH is not important to them, as far as I know. In most places, hard water has a high pH, though, so it is an indicator if one cannot test the hardness.

Three full grown apple snails might overwhelm a 10 gallon aquarium. Common pond snails (Physa genus) and ramshorns might fit better, sizewise, and won't eat plants.

Snails make good aquarium inhabitants. I recently set up a "natural" tank in an old aquarium. I stocked it with invertebrates from a local pond. I have at least three kinds of snails, one, I think, a limpet, as well as other creatures. It is a very interesting tank.

Good luck!

Bill


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I would really like to hear from dr_juz so we don't get off base or overdo the issues, and before we create a new snail website on this thread alone.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

The "El Natural" forum has changed a lot from when it was started. Then, it was devoted to people who eschewed high light, dosing, CO2, and boutique substrates. Now, I think most of the posters make use of at least one of those things.

Which is OK. That keeps the forum alive.

I guess a thread can stray too far away from "El Natural" ideas, in which case it should be moved to anther forum. But if someone is into NPT's and snails, I don't see a problem with talking a little about snails, particularly those snails that would take the "P" out of "NPT."  

Bill


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

Hi Everyone, sorry for the long wait for response and thanks for all your feed back.

flagg: thanks for the welcome note, i did setup the tank with a layer of gravel (i think it might be a bit thin at points hence the reason for murky water). The water is still murky and i plan to do a water change tonight and add some more gravel. Unfortunately i am not sure what plants i purchased, they did not have any names on the tank and i asked for a variety of plants (hope you nice folks here will be able to help me ID them when the water clears up)

rohape: i used to breed ramshorse snails, but due to the plant grows using snail killing substances i cant find any around :-( you were correct in guessing that i have Pomacea bridgesii. To ensure the water stays hard enough for the snail shells, i have build up a crushed coral bank in the one part of the tank (witch you will hopefully see when the water clears). I put a clear peace of glass ontop to stop the snails from wondering off  i actually found this site through the www.applesnail.net website. i like to do lots of research before i embark on any missions.

will5: Sorry to tick you off, if i could find some ramshores i would breed them instead, but the use of snail killing stuff by plant breeders make ramshores impossible to find, unfortunately pond snails have angeled shells witch are stronger and will break my puffers teeth instead of wearing them down. i have added crushed coral to ensure a high PH and have been monitoring the water quality. As soon as i find some ramshorse snails i will stop breeding the apples.

Gilraen Took: i agree, they are very beautiful, i have really enjoyed getting home and watching them surface to pump oxygen, very fascinating !

aquabillpers: Hopefully by the time the apples get to large and overwhelm the el natural ill have some ramshorse to through in and setup a separate display tank for the Apples 

I loved the idea of el natural and this was my primary goal for starting the tank, the apple snail just happen to need a place to stay and breed and instead of using fish in the the tank, i thought the apple snails would be happier in a natural environment rather than a bucket with a filter in.

I must tell everyone that the people from 2 different aquarium shops got very upset with me when i told them what i was planning to do (using potting soil as a substrate) and tried to convince me that this would never work... well i cant wait to go back to them and say, it has been two weeks and all plants and snails are happy and alive.

Thanks for all the great info, i just love trying new things like this  sorry to anyone else who may reading this thinking of me as bad for using apple snails as feeders, did try very hard to find ramshorse and will stop this act against the apples as soon as i find some Ramshores.


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

dr_juz said:


> will5: Sorry to tick you off, if i could find some ramshores i would breed them instead, but the use of snail killing stuff by plant breeders make ramshores impossible to find, unfortunately pond snails have angeled shells witch are stronger and will break my puffers teeth instead of wearing them down. i have added crushed coral to ensure a high PH and have been monitoring the water quality. As soon as i find some ramshorse snails i will stop breeding the apples.


No you have no reason to be sorry. I am the one who is sorry for just jumping in like that.

The Pomacea bridgesii apple snail is a realy great snail for planted tank if you don't inject Co2 and or lower your pH in some way or another.

They will eat a LITTLE ALGAE but not much. They will also eat dead or dying plants. But for the most part you will have to give them a food that is high in calcium. I was just selling snail biscutes a little while ago but i will be out for a while. You can go on plantedtank.net in there swap & shop and put a post for some as there is uaslly someone there selling them.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

This was the first image that popped into my head when I heard apple snails as food.
http://www.applesnail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3105

But I quickly recovered and remembered my very recent experience of taking over 75 juvenile brigs (mystery/apple snails) to the LFS. Now still seeing that we missed about 20! 
I used to use puffers as snail control, but not now. I love my snails too much! 
Good Luck on the snail farm dr_juz!


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

The water is looking better after the water change  the snails have been as happy as can be through out the whole procedure so far  Plants are looking okay, although lots of leaves have come off ... i am sure they will take with time again.

Thanks for everyones input, ill keep you posted on the progress


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

That looks like a very cool tank! Can't wait to see more pics!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

loosely cover the tank... It needs air too. The snail won't climb until it's ready to lay eggs.


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## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I was thinking the same thing earlier, but thought that the powercords keeping the top up would be sufficient. Which is pretty much the only thing I have holding my lids open.


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## Gilraen Took (Apr 19, 2007)

If you WANT to find ramshorns, or pond snails, I know of a store that gives them away for free. All you need to do is ask and I'll ship you as many as I can have them grab from their tanks for the cost of shipping. . .


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

mistergreen: the glass top rests on the light stand leaving some room to let air through... i had the apple snails in a bucket before and a few morning i would find snail trails around my lounge carpet.

Gilraen Took: thanks for the offer of sending some ramshores, I live in Cape Town, South Africa ... not sure where about you live... but shipping to South Africa could take awhile ... i am sure ill find some RS around sooner or later


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## Gilraen Took (Apr 19, 2007)

OH! Wow, I live in the midwest US. Not likely to make it alive!


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## APCRandall (Feb 2, 2007)

kinda random but I had 2 huge apples snails for about a year or two in a small 5 gallon. One recently died, then there were like 15 ramshorn snails and eggs everywhere on all my plants..


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

Are apple snails actually gonna breed fast enough to be a viable food source? I've bred snails for puffers and found the otherwise revolting ponid snail to be the kind of quicky converting plant material (dead) to snail flesh the most quickly with ramshorns being second.

I friend of mine near here is "the snail lady" and has all sorts of apple snails (and few fish). I don't see how you're gonna keep up with the demands a puffer makes frankly. Not that they aren't the collest snails around but they just don't seem to be anywhere enar as productive as the more common ones.

Just a thought.


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

I think you are right, i have not yet had any successfull eggs from the apple yet, i do have another bucket with other common snails in, problem is when they get to big there shells are angeled and bad for puffers teeth... cant believe how hard it is to find ramshores !!


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

You might try looking for plants in your local bodies of water. i'd bet you'd find some snails as well.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

I got mine from a local lake. I took out a bucket of sand then left it in the back yard for two years. Keep in mind it gets -44 here.

One summer I dumped this sand into a new tank, filled it with water and a big ramshon crawled up the glass. 10 years later I still have (lots) of their decendents: brown, red, blue.

I've never heard of certain snails being bad for puffers teeth. Where'd you hear that?


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

hi ... i read that on the www.thepufferforum.com

they are quite knowledgeable there from what i can see?

I took out the apples as they were demolishing all the plants :-( suppose tank was a bit small for them. did a small water change last night and all is still looking pretty good


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

just an update... i removed the Coral and dropped the PH down to 7 as the plants were not doing well in the hard water.... also dropped 6 male guppies this weekend... so hoping that the plants will grow a bit better now  ill post some pics soon.


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

another update.... All is well and life is just happening! all the plants are growing noticbley well and guppies are happy.... i have noticed a few baby snails ... hoping they dont get out of hand !

Softening the water to ph 7 has made a huge difference to the tank....


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,



dr_juz said:


> another update.... All is well and life is just happening! all the plants are growing noticbley well and guppies are happy.... i have noticed a few baby snails ... hoping they dont get out of hand !
> 
> Softening the water to ph 7 has made a huge difference to the tank....


That's great news about your aquarium. Don't worry about the snails. Guppies like to eat them, when the snails are small.

A minor correction? Ph is a measure of the alkalinity of the water. It rarely has anything to do with the health of fish. GH measures the amount of the the calcium and magnesium ions in the water.

Softening reduces the GH, not the Ph, by replacing the calcium ions with sodium ions. This is not a good thing to do to a planted tank.

Most plants do better in hard water. Most fish that we buy have been raised in captivity in both hard or soft water so it is not too important to them, either.

Here's a link to a discussion of water chemistry: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/

Bill


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## celticchrys (Dec 17, 2007)

I wonder if an apple snail could stand up to clown loach...
*edit* Never mind, saw the linked post about the clowns eating a hole in the Apple Snail's foot... answers that question!


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## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

Chiming in now because the Brigs snails are one of my favorite things. The way to tell if your apple snail is P. pomacea bridgesii, look for flat shoulders and 90 deg sutures, where the coil meets the rest of the shell. There's a great pic on applesnail.net under "Species" , and it worked for me. Also, they won't breed until they are an inch or more.


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## dr_juz (Jul 6, 2007)

i like to keep the good people here up to date on my progress 

So firstly: will5

You will be happy to know that i eventually found some ramshorn snails and am now a father of about 30 clusters of eggs (i can see my puffers mouth watering), they live in there own speacial snail breeding tank (bringing the total number of tanks in my small studio apartment to 3 ;-)

I took the Apple snails back to the LFS because they were getting way to big for my NPT, and i never ended up breading or feeding them to my puffer ;-)

I have had to trim and cut back plants about once every two months when i do a 50% water change.

The two show guppies and alea eatter/cat fish are as happy as can be ... i dont think i have ever had show guppies who's tail and dorsal fins have gotten so long!!!

here are some pics 


























Oh yes, java moss is doing really well!


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

aquabillpers said:


> My thoughts on snails:
> 
> It is almost impossible to tell the few "good" apple snail species from the "bad" ones. Perhaps the best way is to put one in a planted aquarium and watch what happens. They are not shy feeders.
> Bill


Most LFS's label every snail "Apple Snails" or "Mystery Snails" the best way to tell them apart
is that the true apple snails get about golf ball sized and will eat anything while the smaller 
mysteries are good for your plants but it's hard to tell them apart in the LFS's.

Ramhorns are also great for NPT's but I'd look for them on the "For Sale or Trade" forum instead
of LFS's.

- Brad


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## will5 (Oct 26, 2005)

dr_juz said:


> i like to keep the good people here up to date on my progress
> 
> So firstly: will5
> 
> ...


Wow i am surprised that you even gave what i said a second thought.  I must say that it sound like you got everything about right now.

Keep up the good work and keep post pics.


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