# Diatom filtering with a canister filter?



## vicpinto (Mar 27, 2007)

Is it possible to get diatom filtering using a canister filter? I was thinking about getting Seachem's "The Bag" welded filter bag, adding some diatom powder to it and dropping it into my Fluval.

Anyone ever done this? Thanks in advance.


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

I cannot seem to find it here or over at PT, but there was a poster claiming that DE could be used with a canister filter--and works just as well. I haven't tried it yet, But I guess I am going to.

Not sure what the purpose of "The Bag" would be. I would just load it through the canister intake--a little at a time.

I have everything I need, so I guess I will go a head and give it whirl and let You know what I think.....

Wish me luck! :mrgreen:


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

No! the bag is a casing that is coated with DE. That allows water to flow through the de not around the de. That's how the stuff works. look at vortex, its the best water polisher Ive used in a long time


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

Was going to add 1 cup for an xP3, but didn't even get ~1/2 cup in before it came flooding back out. I knew it would, but I didn't think it would be quite that fast.

Its a multi-stage system, so I shut off the overflow and return, so the DE can recycle into the xP until it finds a home.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

It wont work. The DE needs a bed to sit on, the can will just blow right out


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

orlando said:


> No! the bag is a casing that is coated with DE. That allows water to flow through the de not around the de. That's how the stuff works. look at vortex, its the best water polisher Ive used in a long time


I understand what You are saying, and I have a vortex and understand how it works. It *Should* just take the DE longer to find a home. Until then--cloudiness. Its already done for me--so I'll let You know how it goes.

The other poster claims to have done it on and off for yrs. I asked for a clarification, but none was given. They appear to be a long-timer, but infrequent poster.

We'll see.......:mrgreen:


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

good luck naj I hope it works out well


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

Here's a permalink to the post that I was referring to, with my request for clarification below it:

Diatom/Micron Filters--Post 30

The users profile shows that they have not been back online at PT since their post. I realize that my "Criteria" for judging the posters claims is pretty weak, but I am also using my own judgment/knowledge/understanding. The DE should find a home on the various media inside the xP and the flow through the canister should create the flow through the DE.

I got most of the 1/2 cup of DE in before it was too cloudy to see the filter intake (--its a low-light setup anyways). After 15 mins its was plenty clear to insert the rest of the DE--which is now done. I'll post later on how long it takes to clear up.



orlando said:


> No! the bag is a casing that is coated with DE. That allows water to flow through the de not around the de. That's how the stuff works. look at vortex, its the best water polisher Ive used in a long time


BTW, Seachem's "the Bag" isn't the same thing as the DE bag in the Vortex. That's why I'm not sure what its purpose would be in this application....


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## vicpinto (Mar 27, 2007)

Whoa time out guys....let me get this straight! 

I assumed you needed the bag to contain the DE powder. Seems I wrong on that account?

So what you are saying is to just feed the powder into the intake? Wont it just get sucked through the filter and back out again? When you say "find a home" are you saying that eventually, from continuously been sucked into and blown out of the filter the DE power will find nooks and crannies inside my other filter material to lodge itself there?


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

sweet let us know, thanks naja


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## vicpinto (Mar 27, 2007)

Oops Naja! I guess you and I were posting at the same time. I'll read up on the link. In the meantime I would like to know how it works out for you.

Victor


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

vicpinto said:


> Whoa time out guys....let me get this straight!
> 
> I assumed you needed the bag to contain the DE powder. Seems I wrong on that account?
> 
> So what you are saying is to just feed the powder into the intake? Wont it just get sucked throughthe filter and back out again? When you say "find a home" are you saying that eventually, from continuously been sucked into and blown out of the filter the DE powerd will find nooks and crannies inside my other filter material to lodge itself there?


Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. The DE will pass through the canister and cloud the tank. With each pass more DE will settle on the sponge media, filter floss, micro pads, etc. I have no idea how this will impact medias like ceramic rings, seachem's matrix, etc. BUT, I think it will work well with sponges, filter floss and micro pads--the only thing I use in the Xp.

Right now, I'm just waiting to see how long it takes to clear up the cloudiness and what the clarifying effect will be.....


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## vicpinto (Mar 27, 2007)

Curious to know how much of a decrease in flow you will observed. I have biomax in my Fluval canister so that's probably another concern....


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

vicpinto said:


> Curious to know how much of a decrease in flow you will observed. I have biomax in my Fluval canister so that's probably another concern....


I don't know exactly what the biomax is, so I am not in a position to comment. I'll google it after this post.

I don't know about the reduced flow. The poster in the other thread didn't state which filter they were using, how much DE, how long it had value, etc.....So, I will just have to figure that out for myself. If I have to start cleaning out the canister more than once/month--I won't be using this idea! :mrgreen:

Its a low-light blackwater setup, so I cannot just use seachem's Purigen--which is my first choice.

*EDIT:* Ok, Biomax is basically ceramic rings. I have no idea if the DE will clog those and render them ineffective or not. Just keep in mind that I am only using sponges (30 & 20ppi), Floss and Rena's Micro-filtration pads.


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

Just wanted to update this:

After 3hrs the tank was +95% clear, so I opened the overflow and plugged the return back in.
After 4hrs the tank is clear.
After 6hrs it looks polished.
I cannot tell any reduction of flow at this point.

I'll take a look again in the morning.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

man thats cool


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

Well, I must say: This does work! The only question now is flow. At this point there does not "appear" to be a decrease in flow, but without a flow meter--its hard to say for certain.

Here's some pix--I left them full -size, so You need to click the thumbnails:

First pic is lengthwise through the 36" long tank (40gBr)--doesn't look like there is any water in there


Second pic is front to back with the camera up against the acrylic:


Last pic is back a couple of feet--Please excuse the reflections, etc:


This tank has actually never looked this clean--even after running the vortex itself for 8-12hrs--days at a time. There are only 4 shiners in there now, because the snake has gone into shed and won't be eating until afterwards, but there is up 20+ shiners and 4-5" Comets in there at any given time. As I'm sure You can imagine: Its a particulate heavy tank! Its clear now.

Now I just have to wait and see what the long-term effects are........and how well it works with a heavier fish load, but I think it will work well.

Glad I tried this...............

*Side Note:* I was wondering about any "Dusting" of the DE on the items in the tank--there isn't any. There was initially, but its all gone now--less than 24hrs later. I don't know how this would go in a plant only tank, but would guess with fish and other moving life--it wouldn't be a problem.
*Edit:* The above comments about the "Dusting" are not entirely accurate: There is some very slight dusting on a couple of sword plants and the black overflow plumbing--but I had to really look around to find it. I would assume that a Good swoosh around with a hand or something would make it go away easily enough.


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## vic46 (Oct 20, 2006)

In the event that you have any bio-filter set up in the cannister I would be concerned about the impact of the D/E on the bio-filter. I would also be concerned that the throughput of a cannister would not be adequate. My Vortex XL puts a great deal more water through than my 2 xP3's combined. The effectiveness of a Vortex filter is partially the use of D/E however, the effectiveness is also very much a product of the through put of the filter.
Vic


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## fshfanatic (Aug 7, 2008)

Dude, this thread is odd.

There are only a few filters that are designed to use DE..

Magnums are one. Simply adding DE to a regular canister filter will not polish water. De acts as a screen to trap particulate matter. It requires this and pressure to actually polish the water. Simply waiting till the tank is clear again doesnt mean it is actually "working", all that means is it found someplace to settle.


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

fshfanatic said:


> Dude, this thread is odd.
> 
> There are only a few filters that are designed to use DE..
> 
> Magnums are one. Simply adding DE to a regular canister filter will not polish water. De acts as a screen to trap particulate matter. It requires this and pressure to actually polish the water. Simply waiting till the tank is clear again doesnt mean it is actually "working", all that means is it found someplace to settle.


Before and after. I did it, I was there--I saw the effect.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes I too think that this is truly weird. First off the DE should have a hard time accumulating. Second if the DE accumulates anyway the pump should have a hard time moving water through the dense layer of DE. Third even if both A and B somehow work anyway very quickly the layer of DE will get plugged by the tiny visible organic particles floating in the water and become impenetrable.

That it all worked is very strange.

But even if it works for a few days it should have problems in the long run. The sludge/bacteria accumulating over the DE over the period of a few days should completely plug up the DE.

On another note - if anyone must use a Diatom filter to keep their water clean then they are doing things wrong. Their biofilter is not working well. The tank is off ballance and mechanical filtration just keeps things looking acceptable but they are not right anyway. A seldom discussed fact is that optimal biological filtration actually polishes the water as good as a Diatom filter. The water looks like in that first picture - as if it's missing. Most people seldom achieve that because they don't pay enough attention to the biofiltration. Most filters and filter materials sold for aquariums are crap and perform as such. In an established planted tank the plants play a bigger role in the biofiltration than the canister filter. Such tanks can exist with just water movement from a powerhead, no canister filter. Usually most of us try mechanical filtration to keep the water clean and seldom get the best results.

In any case - the results of that experiment are both weird and very interesting. Naja, can you replicate it over and over?

--Nikolay


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

niko said:


> Yes I too think that this is truly weird. First off the DE should have a hard time accumulating. Second if the DE accumulates anyway the pump should have a hard time moving water through the dense layer of DE. Third even if both A and B somehow work anyway very quickly the layer of DE will get plugged by the tiny visible organic particles floating in the water and become impenetrable.
> 
> That it all worked is very strange.
> 
> But even if it works for a few days it should have problems in the long run. The sludge/bacteria accumulating over the DE over the period of a few days should completely plug up the DE.


I would not run this long term. It's just a one time use things like an actual diatom filter. Do it and then clean the filter. That is why I would highly recommend having a filter to specifically do this with...



niko said:


> On another note - if anyone must use a Diatom filter to keep their water clean then they are doing things wrong. Their biofilter is not working well. The tank is off ballance and mechanical filtration just keeps things looking acceptable but they are not right anyway. A seldom discussed fact is that optimal biological filtration actually polishes the water as good as a Diatom filter. The water looks like in that first picture - as if it's missing. Most people seldom achieve that because they don't pay enough attention to the biofiltration. Most filters and filter materials sold for aquariums are crap and perform as such. In an established planted tank the plants play a bigger role in the biofiltration than the canister filter. Such tanks can exist with just water movement from a powerhead, no canister filter. Usually most of us try mechanical filtration to keep the water clean and seldom get the best results.


Agreed. I have have a D1. I did this as an experiment. I have rarely used the D1, because A) I don't have much use for it, and B) I find that purigen does a wonderful job.



niko said:


> In any case - the results of that experiment are both weird and very interesting. Naja, can you replicate it over and over?
> 
> --Nikolay


I've never tried. I just did it that one time. Again, I would not and do not recommend doing this and then walking away. The filter will need to be cleaned within a couple-3 days. It will bog down the flow, etc. But it's nice to know that it works.


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