# EI with less frequent water changes?



## Halibass (Jan 28, 2007)

Is it possible to dose "EI-like" but have water changes every two weeks instead of every week? It's probably not optimal, but it's safer in my situation because I probably can't perform water changes every week. How would you adjust the dosing regimen? Thanks!


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## simpsota (Mar 11, 2006)

While I haven't done this yet myself (still trying to get my CO2 reactor sorted out), I've taken a look at it to see what the standard dosing will do. I found that if you do the standard dosing you will end up with very high levels.

For example, if you dose the normal amount of KNO3 you will end up with 140ppm NO3 eventually instead of 70ppm with no uptake, or 98ppm instead of 56ppm for 2ppm daily uptake. Note that I assumed about 35ppm as the standard weekly dose.

The attached plot "EI 1.jpg" shows how the concentration builds up with time with bi-weekly water changes if you add 25ppm weekly. Sorry for the poor picture quality, I wasn't sure how to make the jpg files and I the doc file was too big.

Plot "EI 2.jpg" shows what would happen if you dosed 25ppm during week 1 and 17.5ppm during week 2 (with the 50% water change at the end of week 2). That's what I was planning to try out.

Note that the lines jump up and down because of how I put in the uptake of nutrients and water changes.

Hope this helps and generates more discussion.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi Halibass
There is no need to put up with frequent water changes, testing parameters and speculating about the next dosage. Here is the recipe for the easiest and most reliable fertilizer.

*PPS-PRO*

In 1 litre bottle #1:
59 grams K2SO4
65 grams KNO3
6 grams KH2PO4
41 grams MgSO4
Fill up with distilled water.

In 1 litre bottle #2:
80 grams of TE Mix, CSM+B or equivalent TE
Fill up with distilled water.

Dose every morning, gallon / 10 [in ml]. 

Example: 
For 100 gallon aquarium dose 100 / 10 = 10 ml. Dose 10 ml of #1 and 10 ml of #2. 
For 50 gallon aquarium dose 5 ml and so on.

Enjoy!

Thank you
Edward


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## mathieu (Mar 17, 2007)

with how many water change ?


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## Halibass (Jan 28, 2007)

mathieu said:


> with how many water change ?


I believe for pps you don't really need to do frequent water changes. I'm still reading up about it though.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

mathieu said:


> with how many water change ?


Hi
If you don't have more fish then plants can handle and don't have substrate that dissolves, then never. And if you like changing water, no problem. The system will still work. 

Thank you
Edward


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Halibass said:


> I believe for pps you don't really need to do frequent water changes. I'm still reading up about it though.


Hi
There are three PPS systems. 

*PPS-Classic*
This system runs aquariums indefinitely without water changes. It requires weekly to monthly testing. Water changes are optional.

*PPS-With water changes*
This system is used to restore and start new conditions. Can be used continuously. Requires no testing. Weekly water changes are necessary. 

*PPS-Pro* (most recent system)
It is the easiest system ever. There is no testing required and water changes are optional. 

Thank you
Edward


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

edward, is there anyway to set this up with out having a scale to mesure out the ferts?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Muirner said:


> edward, is there anyway to set this up with out having a scale to mesure out the ferts?


Sorry Muirner, dry chemicals are very strong compounds and must be dosed accurately. The cheapest digital scales available will do the job.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Fair enough, that I understand. How accurate do I need to be? I have a postal scale that I can use accurate to the .5g. I would get one locally but the palmscales they sell are $100 and up, I could look at ebay if needed. 

OR i could start the EI method and then save up for the scale and go to PPS.

What plant is that in your avitar Edward? I freaking LOVE IT.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi
The 0.5 gram scale is perfectly fine. 

Staples
Pelouze® General-Purpose Digital Scales, 5-lb. Capacity 
For $37 or ebay for less.

The plant is _Rotala wallichii ._

Thank you
Edward


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Look around on the web you can get a scale for very cheap. I forget the site i got mine from but i was about to get a little pocket scale accurate to 1/10 of a gram for $15 dollars shipped.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Edward, now i notice in your directions to dose every morning. But i'll admit some mornings just well arnt that early. Should i be setting an alarm just to dose? Or how exact do i need to be?

MgSO4 - What is this? I'm looking at Greg Watsons site and i dont see it?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Morning dose can be done as late as one hour before lights go on. MgSO4 is Magnesium sulfate available in drugstores as Epsom salt.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

What are you recommending for CO2 levels for "Pro" Edward?

Are you still working on the "Co2 myth" project? I have been doing some effective test with lower CO2(8ppm) and i am still seeing nice growth. It looks like an early conclusion for me is a happy medium....target 15-25ppm. Any thoughts on this.

Sorry to hijack the thread if others dont find this relevant.

jB


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Ok, so i'd just have to set my photoperiod to begin a little later then it does now, no problem. Now my last question and i think i've found the dosing option for me would be, The scale i have is accurate to the 1.0g or the .1oz, is this still ok to use? I thought for some reason it was accurate down to .5g but i guess not.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Edward - another thing I'm curious about is, how come in this dosing regime we will be adding salt? I'm just curious, as i know it's not a great amount, but what part does this play? Also are fish/inverts sensitive to this?


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Muirner said:


> Edward - another thing I'm curious about is, how come in this dosing regime we will be adding salt? I'm just curious, as i know it's not a great amount, but what part does this play? Also are fish/inverts sensitive to this?


 If by salt you man the Epsom salt, it isn't actually salt in the sense your thinking. There is no sodium in epsom salt, its just Magnesium and sulfate.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> What are you recommending for CO2 levels for "Pro" Edward?
> 
> Are you still working on the "Co2 myth" project? I have been doing some effective test with lower CO2(8ppm) and i am still seeing nice growth. It looks like an early conclusion for me is a happy medium....target 15-25ppm. Any thoughts on this.
> 
> ...


Hi Jason
There is no need for any special CO2 levels in any aquarium. Some plants can use KH and CO2 as a carbon source but most plants can use only CO2. The question was how much ppm of CO2 plants truly need. Tests published in the *CO2 Deficiency Does Not Cause Algae* have shown that very little CO2 concentration is needed for plants to grow healthy and maintain algae free environment. 

CO2 injection was readjusted back to the standard 1 bps bubble per second after a period of four months Plants started growing faster and still &#8230; no algae ... 

Let's think about the ADA CO2 tank size for a moment!










Thank you 
Edward


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Edward said:


> Morning dose can be done as late as one hour before lights go on.


How Early can the dose be done? Say if i go to bed at 2am can i dose then? (The only bio media i will have are bio rings in a reactor about 15" long.


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## simpsota (Mar 11, 2006)

Edward said:


> Staples
> Pelouze® General-Purpose Digital Scales, 5-lb. Capacity
> For $37 or ebay for less.
> 
> ...


Just a warning, but Staples lists this scale as having an accuracy of 0.1oz or 1 gram. Is that accurate enough?


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Thats what i used last night to weigh out the mesurements Edward posted. If you use a spoon and put the chemicals on a weighing tray or a piece of paper once you get close to the desired weight, just slowly sprinkle the chemical onto the scale. This allows you to watch the scale go up ever so slowly... 

How early is to early for the dose to go in? I woke up today an hour and half before the lights went on, but just out of curiousity


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Digital scale at 1 gram accuracy is perfectly fine.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Muirner said:


> How early is to early for the dose to go in? I woke up today an hour and half before the lights went on, but just out of curiousity


 Any time in the morning is fine. Make sure it is before lights go on.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Ok, so anytime after midnight?? Or should i try and be semi close to the time the lights come on? I woke up this morning an hour before the lights came on, and about three hours before i normally get up... how long is to early to dose before the lights come on? I am *not* an early riser :lol:

The only bio media that will be in the tank will be bio rings in a 15" or so reactor.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Try the fertilizer dosing before you leave your house.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

but the issue i have is this. I only really have to get up early 3 days a week. The rest of the days i'll admit i enjoy a good slumber but who dosent right?  the photoperiod begins at 9:15ish AM, and is off at 7:30ish. Nightlight from 7:20-9:30 (i'm going to extend, the lights are dim and they allow for night viewing.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

So because you wake up after the light go on you want to dose before you go to sleep?


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

If thats possible. I dont go to bed until about 2am every night, tonight it's 4am lol. But by dosing the nutrience in the tank will i be wasting them? As noted above i only have probably 15 bio rings in my reactor but i dont wan to be just feeding that bacteria. I'm just trying to figure out the dosing deal.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

The recommended time is just a speculation at this time. In your situation dosing at 2 - 4 should be better then dosing during the photoperiod.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Sounds good Edward! I'm going to make a little calender to write down my schedule and see if i need to move my photoperiod around to help with the dosing times. Let me ask, i dose before the photoperiod so that i'm able to have the nutrience in the water prior to the plants needing any of them? 

co2 hopefully next week


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Yes


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

I started dosing co2 today, via pressurized system. Right now it's at about 1bps, maybe .5bps, i just dont want it creep up to high. I'm bubbling into the intake, but i need to get clippard tubing asap. As for a check valve i'm using a regular airline one, is this sufficent? 

Also edward, can i use one syringe to dose both solutions?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

You need a CO2 needle valve. And it's ok if you rinse the syringe first.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

I have the CO2 needle valve as well. I'm using a working pressure of ~15# and running about 1bps. 

Should i rinse the syringe in tank water? or bottled water?


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Muirner said:


> Should i rinse the syringe in tank water? or bottled water?


 Tap water.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Thanks edward. I have now gotten my dosing regimine all set and my co2 going. Thank you for all your help. I'm hoping my algae issues will clear up, and i'll see great growth. Thank you for answering every question i have had.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

You're welcome.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

you know, i came home today, and looked at my tank quickly for the first time all week since i started dosing. And i must say, my vals are now to the top of the tank, the bacopa is growing undoubtly taller, the ludwiga is starting to look more normal. I'll look more tomorow. Big thanks Edward!!!

Last set of questions. Do you know about algae? I have GSA on the glass (seems to be going away since I started to dose) and I have grey spots, which i assume is Black Spot Algae? Will my regimine help alleviate these issues.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

It may be too early to celebrate. Every aquarium goes through intensive problems when conditions change. In about three months aquarium starts running properly when algae disappears. 

If your aquarium water parameters allow you to keep water longer, deadlier to algae will be.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

So i should try to keep my water in as much as possible? If so that sounds GREAT water changes are a hassle right now as i have to lug the water. I'm going to keep dosing and get this CO2 on a timer asap. My drop checker sould be on the way as well.

EDIT: Should i scrape the glass??


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

You don't need any timer. Algae don't grow when plants are happy. This happens in consistent levels which are achieved by uninterrupted CO2 injection. Nobody stops CO2 in natural waters overnight. 

Clean the glass once.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Ok, so i know the obvious answer is an algae scraper, but is there any thing else i can use to clean the glass? A new razer blade? I just dont go to the fish store for another few days because it's out of town. 

And should i do a partial water change after? maybe even have the vacuum going while scraping (sucking up what comes off)


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> ...but is there any thing else i can use to clean the glass?


I use an old credit card. If the stuff is really hard, I'll use a razor blade - just be sure you don't scratch your glass.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

An old credit card works great. I also flatten the edge with sandpaper ( place the sandpaper flat on a surface and pull the card across it carefully to get the flattest, sharpest, straightest and most effective edge). I actually made my best scrapers out of small pieces of acrylic or plexiglass, flattening the edge the same way. They last forever, can be sharpened and are easier to hold onto. You can heat them and bend into more ergonomic shapes if you get really bored or interested


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Sweet thanks for the advice. Now just to wait for my 3rd hand to evolove and i'll run the vacuum at the same time lol.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)




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## projectile (Apr 23, 2007)

Looking at the discussions between Muirner and Edward about the timing of dosing, i would like confess that dosing just before the lights-on, is something very new to me and our local hobby community. almost all of us dose in the night after lights-out, the thinking being , since the EDTA-Chelates dissociate/degrade upto 85% in the presence of light , dosing of micros especially in the night would mean almost 14hr of full availability to plants.
but of course what you guys do does work wonderfully, pls let me know what you guys think about night time dosing.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

my only thought is, do plants use this nutrience while the lights are off? I know that they dont use the CO2 that is injected, but will they use the nutrience. My only other thought is, if your dosing at night and you have biomedia in your filter, arnt you looking to get all the ferts taken up by the bacteria that has colinized the biomedia?

Even though this would be ideal, sinse some days it's really iffy getting up at 8 to dose real quick. LOL


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Well, you can try dosing in the morning and then in the evening for 3 months and tell us what the difference is. Could be interesting.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

I cant even get a stable environment yet so doing an experiment isnt in my books for now. And if waking up is a hassle i'll just set the photoperiod to begin later.

Anyways edward, i scraped my glass last week and it looked freaking amaizing, first time i've looked into my tank being clearly in a while. But now i can see GSA comming back on the front glass. Where am i difficient and what do i need to do?


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Muirner, give it 2-3 more weeks before you start changing things. If you don't like the spot algae, scrape it off. If you don't like to scrap, leave it. If in 2-3 weeks it is still _re-accuring_ then you can start playing with things to try and remedy the problem. Plants and aquariums are environments that need time to change, adapt and balance. Plants and algae both require time to decide whether or not their current environment is suitable and thus, if they want to grow or not.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Muirner said:


> Anyways edward, i scraped my glass last week and it looked freaking amaizing, first time i've looked into my tank being clearly in a while. But now i can see GSA comming back on the front glass. Where am i difficient and what do i need to do?


 Don't worry the algae will come back. Remove the other one and wait. You have made changes and more algae will come and go, the system is not stable yet.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Don't worry the algae will come back. Remove the other one and wait. You have made changes and more algae will come and go, the system is not stable yet. 

Discovering new kind of algae is a good sign. The present kind will die and a new one will grow. This means the aquarium is still in developing stage.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Sounds good Edward, looks like i'm going to be holding on then. Thanks for your help YET again! You've been great with this whole adventure


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

You're Very Welcome.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

Edward, I just want to give you an update. Everything seems to be loving the dosing schedule. My Bacopa Pantanal (i think) have grown to the top of my 55 gal (24"!!!) and have many side shoots comming out the bottom. My marsilia has begun to spread noticiably. The Vals are so big that i'm debating about selling them now lol! Cabomba is recovering from looking iffy, i'm tempted to go buy another few bunches.

Stargrass is grwoing (the little that lived) Hornwort is out of control. Hemianthus micranthemoides went from 3 stems, to about 15 and sent 2 6" runners out. And the most noticable one is the *Hydrocotyle leucocephala* It's grown from sending about 1 leaf every 3 days, to probably 1 a day, and it's reached the top of my tank, total length of it is probably around 30-35" with stems comming from the side. The best part is the leaves on the surface are about 2-3" in diameter!

I'll have a pic if i either clean the algea or it goes away. I'm hit with GSA and Some hair algea.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

So your plants grow like crazy. How long photoperiod and how much CO2? If you don't change water and clean the GSA few times it will disappear. Need water flow with filtration. Take a close up picture of the hair algae. It's a new aquarium it will take time.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

My photoperiod is from 9:30am to 7pm and night lights from 7-9:30pm. I have what i believe is 30ppm of CO2, but my drop checker needs to get more ph indicator in it to make it more visiable, but my friend has my pipettes in his car. 

Should i include biomedia in my cannister? Or leave that out all together? Right now i just have some filter floss in each basket.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

> ...but my friend has my pipettes in his car.


LMFAO!!!


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

The main light is good. How powerful is your night light? If you lower CO2 from 30 to 20 plants will not grow like crazy and algae will slow down. The plants will actually grow more compact, less leggy.


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

dennis said:


> LMFAO!!!


LOL, it's true. I got some plastic ones from a chem techer at school the other day and i left all 4 in the kids car. DOH!!!

On the soon to sell list: 2 Melon swards, 1 random sward (i think), 2 vals, and some Hydrocotyle leucocephala (i think all this will be up there)


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