# Eco-Complete, Fluorite or Onyx??



## ringram

Does anyone have information or suggestions for me on which substrate to go with? I like the look of Onyx, but heard that it can increase the KH of the water, which may not be desireable. I also heard about Eco-Complete, which I understand is similar to fluorite and onyx in that it contains a lot of Iron and other traces(not sure if it affects the water), but the beneficial bacteria mixed in it helps with cycling and such. Does anyone have suggestions of which one to go with? I'm kind of leaning towards the Eco-Complete, unless someone convinces me otherwise. This will be for a 20g heavily planted tank.

Also, which one of these is likely to leech nutrients into the water? The only one I know will not is fluorite(except the cloudiness).
Which is likely to hold the nutrients for longer?

Ryan


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## turtlehead

eco is a miracle


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## www.glass-gardens.com

Flourite hands down. And I never have understood how this cloudiness issue ever came up, I have yet to experience any such problems and I never rinse the stuff.


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## ringram

I had some cloudiness on the last tank I set up and it was just peat moss & beach/sandbox sand. I suppose the agitation from filling the tank up comes into play. There's a lot to be said for taking the time to do it right. I like the look of the onyx / Eco black substrate as I'm thinking it may help bring out plant/fish color better, but as for quality of substrate, are you saying that Fluorite is the way to go? 
This tank is close to being setup. I just ordered pmdd stuff last night from greg watson and some other stuff from Big Al's. 
Choosing which substrate may just come down to eeny-meeny-miney-mo.


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## JanS

My vote goes to Eco-Complete. I've used both Eco and Flourite, and although cloudy water was never a problem with the Flourite when prepped correctly, I just like the Eco after the fact for ease of use and performance.


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## www.glass-gardens.com

In my experience, Flourite is a superior product.


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## Rob G

www.glass-gardens.com said:


> In my experience, Flourite is a superior product.


based on what qualities? I'm not arguing; I'm just curious.


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## SAWALLACE

Usually Eco Complete leaks Calcium and Onyx leaks Mg. I haven't tried Flourite, but i'm sure any of the above will give you great results. I use Eco and it's working out great. Plus I love the look of a dark substrate.


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## Gomer

Having used both eco complete and flourite, I would say that neither is better or worse at growing.

I prefer not having flourite dust and think flourite is ugly as sin. I don't mind the Ca and Mg buffering since the plants will use it and WCs...so I say Eco.

I only have limited Onyx experience.


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## JLudwig

My vote is also for Eco complete, I've had significantly less algae problems in my Eco complete tank, also looks much better... guess this might mean I'm a little short on Ca in my tap...

Jeff


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## jsenske

It funny to me how much scrutiny the ADA substrate system gets, yet I hear very little challenging the Eco-Complete claims about what all is in that stuff. I mean, do you really believe that there's actually viable bacteria in that water? I've seen the warehouses where it sits all summer- doubt it has much by the time it makes into your tank, but that's just my opinion. As for the nutrient content of it- I am truly skeptical. Where are these nutrients? It's just porous black rocks. There is no mention of WHERE the nutrients come from. I never had more trouble than when I used it. I mean, plants grew, yes, but that alone is no great feat. Where is Tom Barr's masters research study on this product? Certainly it's been thoroughly tested and/or raked over the coal fires to insure all the package claims are correct. 
Flourite is tried and true, makes no suspicious claims, and is terribly ugly all at the same time. Prior to ADA availablity, I used it exclusively, tried the Eco-Complete (reading the package you would think it was some sort of miracle product), hated it, and went back to Flourite. 
For a beginner my advice would be FLOURITE all the way (if you can't wait for ADA). Maybe I've been through 1000 bags of it and I have never once rinsed it and have never had the cloudy water scenario. The key is to dry-scape the tank, then fill it really slowly. If you want to go super clear- fill it, drain it and fill it again.


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## trenac

I would say either Eco or Flourite...Depends on the color you want and the ease (rinsing versis no rinsing). Myself being a user of both, I can't tell that one gives better plant growth over the other. The Eco did raise my KH for the first few months.


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## Edward

Go with inert substrate if you want to be in control. Otherwise substrate will control you via water changes.

Edward


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## Raul-7

Edward said:


> Go with inert substrate if you want to be in control. Otherwise substrate will control you via water changes.
> 
> Edward


But it won't control you for very long...But does anyone notice how roots try to penetrate the EC granules?


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## Edward

Raul-7 said:


> But it won't control you for very long...


Hi Raul-7

Calcareous substrates do not stop leaking Ca, Mg and CO3 (KH) because CO2 keeps dissolving them constantly.


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## tsunami

There are both pros and cons to inert substrates.

For our high light systems (with power compact flourescent lighting in the 3.5wpg+ range), I think a semi-rich substrate rich in iron and traces is necessary. 

The plants simply cannot strip enough nutrients from the water column while sitting in sand in a 4 wpg tank with PCs and good reflectors. They need the added boost from the substrate (observation).

Personally, I like Eco-complete but will switch to ADA from now on. Both condition the water in different ways. In fact, I think the way ADA Aquasoil conditions the water might even be desirable for various species.

Carlos


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## Edward

Hi Tsunami,


tsunami said:


> There are both pros and cons to inert substrates.


Each substrate requires different water column dosing. On the end they all work. There is no magic one.



> For our high light systems (with power compact flourescent lighting in the 3.5wpg+ range), I think a semi-rich substrate rich in iron and traces is necessary.


 One of my tanks have 5 Wpg PC with inert substrate and plants are growing nicely. So does Niko who posted pictures of great looking plants and huge roots. I think any substrate works with good water column fertilization.

Edward


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## Raul-7

tsunami said:


> The plants simply cannot strip enough nutrients from the water column while sitting in sand in a 4 wpg tank with PCs and good reflectors. They need the added boost from the substrate (observation).
> 
> Carlos


The only thing they need is Fe and traces in the substrate, but only in little amounts (basically Laterite is ideal). There's no need to invest in such expensive substrates, unless you forget to dose daily. If you rely solely on the water column I'm sure you'll come up with almost the same results as using a rich substrate/dosing.

But what's the use of having a substrate that lowers your Mg/Ca levels, when you may end up running into a defeciency? Unless you have extremely high levels. Even though, the buffering effect won't last for very long. RO is better solution.


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## Chuck H

Raul-7 said:


> But it won't control you for very long...But does anyone notice how roots try to penetrate the EC granules?


I see this with Fluorite, too. It's probably gonna happen with any porous substrate. Back when I was working with soil-based tanks, I stupidly used some potting soil that had wood chips in it. Whenever I'd pull up plants, there would always be a bunch of chips firmly attached to the roots.


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## tsunami

Edward.

You have high lighting with 5 wpg of normal flourescents or 5 wpg of power compact lighting with good aluminum reflectors?

Niko tells me that his plants may be healthy, but the plants I sent him look pale. This includes such trace sensitive plants as Micranthemum umbrosum and Mayaca fluviatilis --two excellent indicator plants.

If I remember, the tank Niko posted was the one with glossostigma correct? This tank was setup by Luis Navarro, who tends to use semi-rich substrates (heavy in iron and traces) such as eco-complete, florabase, etc. I am not sure what he used in this tank, but it would be unlike him to use something inert.

My point is not to supply all fertilization through the roots, however. And I am not referring to nitrate or phosphate, Raul. I refer to the iron and traces in your eco-complete, your onyx, your flourite, and perhaps even your aquasoil. Those are important if you truly want to push your tank really hard without stunting your plants. The rest comes from the water column. That is what I do -- everything through the water column, but a little extra trace/iron boost in the substrate. This is basically what most people are doing at this point. It works better for some species than for others.

And adding a bit about Ca/Mg... I have yet to see an a calcium or magnesium deficiency in a tank using this product. Some of the best Ammannia gracilis and Nesaea pedicellata, two plants I have observed that are sensitive to Ca/Mg ratio/levels, were grown in aquasoil.

Carlos


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## opiesilver

From my perspective the Eco-complete is easier for me. I don't have much time anymore to work on my own tanks so when I redo a tank or setup a new one I don't want to have to mess with the substrate much. It's just pour it in, fill with water a bit, plant the plants and top off the water. Then all I have to do is hook it up to my dosing system and I'm set.


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## www.glass-gardens.com

Chuck H said:


> I see this with Fluorite, too. It's probably gonna happen with any porous substrate. Back when I was working with soil-based tanks, I stupidly used some potting soil that had wood chips in it. Whenever I'd pull up plants, there would always be a bunch of chips firmly attached to the roots.


I see that with Flourite and with some other stuff I have, but correct me if I'm wrong, but the porosity of the medium and the hair root structure if promotes is actually of benefit to the plant is it not? I mean yeah, pulling a sword that's out of control with a brick attatched to it's roots is a major pain in the wazooki, but other than that, I've found substrates high in porosity to be some of the best.


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## Raul-7

Porosity is an important aspect of a good substrate. It houses bacteria that make nutrients available to plants.

But Carlos, if you're looking for that extra push you should go with PowerSand. That's where all the nutrients are. AquaSoil is simply for the buffering affect.


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## Edward

tsunami said:


> Edward.
> 
> You have high lighting with 5 wpg of normal flourescents or 5 wpg of power compact lighting with good aluminum reflectors?


 PC with good reflector.
Preparing on using even more light very soon to see how it works.

Edward


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## Its me

tsunami said:


> For our high light systems (with power compact flourescent lighting in the 3.5wpg+ range), I think a semi-rich substrate rich in iron and traces is necessary.


Hi,

Cant agree with it sorry. This is my tank with 2 euros a kilogram supermarket gravel and 4WPG:










Not an aquascaping brilliant work, but as you see plants grow fine.

Best Regards
Miguel


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## EDGE

My tank has problem with Echinodorus and flourite. After switching from inert gravel to 80 flourite/ 20 onyx, my swords begin to wither back to a 3" size plant from a size of 14". 

Everytime a new leaf begin to come up, the older 3" leaf would melt at the crown. I am not sure what is causing this to happen. I started adding jobes stick, Fe tabs, and Flourish tab to the substrate. the substrate fertilizing did not help at all.


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## tsunami

Miguel,

Try growing Didiplis diandra, Mayaca fluviatilis, Rotala macrandra, wallichii, or sp. Nanjenshan in there and report back. Myriophyllum tuberculatum is another one. These are my most iron sensitive plants and, unfortunately, also my favorites for scaping. I had no problems growing Hygrophilas, Ludwigias, Alternanthera, et al in an inert substrate with that lighting level... but some plants...

Carlos


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## chubasco

> Not an aquascaping brilliant work, but as you see plants grow fine.


Miguel, your tank looks great to me! Not only can't my tanks be in the same
room as yours, they can't be in the same building! I just got to try knocking
the rim off a 10 gallon! Thanks for sharing!

Regards,

Bill Ruyle


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## Robbb

Havn't used the eco-complete... 
I use both flourite and onyx (in separate tanks). The onyx is wicked awsome for growing hairgrass and glosso, and the flourite for growing everything else. The grass and glosso would stay alive in the flourite, but wouldn't spread & create runners very well. Both tanks are the same size and have the same lighting, etc.
Just my 2cents.


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## Edward

Hi Robbb,

The reason behind this “mystery” might be the fact that Onyx leaks Mg but Flourite does not. You can test for Mg and start dosing it if deficient in the Flourite aquarium. Then you will be getting the same growth rate in both tanks.

Edward


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## niko

My experience with inert, non-porous substrate:

Here's a picture of some Witeria roots growing in a 100% inert, non-porius substrate:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1179&c=15

And here are some pictures of the substrate. It is not porous at all, it's more like tiny pieces of glass (garnet is a gemstone):
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/gallery/album10

From my observations in 2 tanks now plants do grow with 100% inert substrate if provided fertilization from the water. That goes for plants that root too - I have dwarf sag and C. helferi growing in one of the tanks and they do perfectly fine. The dwarf sag quadrupled in 10 days under 5.7 wpg (the plant grew pale almost white with that much light, but it grew nevertheless). The C. helferi is 3 blooming now.

The stem plants in the tank have very much taken all the available space because I never prune. Cuba, Mermaid weed, Aromatica, Alternanthera, Anacharis, Cabomba... but that shouldn't be a surprise of course.

One thing that I believe has to be done with inert substrate is to not overdo the light. In my case the use 5.7 wpg and inert substrate was simply foolish. Cutting the light to 3 wpg resolved the problem with the plants growing pale.

--Nikolay


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## clay

a lot of good info. so with all this on the table, would any of you consider mixing flourite with onyx, or any combination of any of the substrates mentioned? i have an 80g that i am setting up, and i am still not sure on which to use.


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## trenac

In my 55G tank I used a combo of Flourite and a regular natural gravel, 50/50 is the best mix.


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## MiamiAG

I have grown plants in inert substrates before especially Grodan or rockwool. Interestingly enough, plants I've grown in a more fertile substrate have grown better even though the liquid fertilization has been the same.


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## Nick

With respect to mixing the two, I was planning something similar, in that I intended to use flourite as the main base layer for the substrate, capped by onyx sand. Reason being that onxy sand looks better than flourite plus having a higher carbonate content should give me additional Ca and Mg above and beyond that which my RO/tapwater mix gives. (one could also increase the tapwater in the mix of course..) On a different note, I planned on 'jumpstarting' the substrate with some gunge from my current planted discus set-up, which believe me has a lot of muck in it. I intend using debris from the external and internal filters I run, unless anyone else has other suggestions on getting the bugs of to a good start?

Nick


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## clay

i was considering doing the same thing, as far as mixing. but i was going to actually have the top layer show both flourite and onyx. i like the sand and gravel look. 

now, are you guys and gals just using the substrate mentioned, or are you also putting peat at the bottom? the tank is an 80g and i am trying to figure out what to do. seems some of you believe that the substrate does not need to be rich with nutrients, and others do.


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## bharada

When Luis Navarro was visiting the bay area last year he stopped by one of our SFBAAPS open houses. While discussing substrates with the group he mentioned that he preferred Flourite over Eco-Complete as he felt that Eco needed to be re-enriched after about a year.


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## Nick

I was intending on using mainly flourite as I said, plus the onxy on top. Currently I have a full Dennerle set-up, which uses sand mixed with a Dennerle product called Deponit and capped with inert quartz gravel, with a grain size of ~2mm, as prescribed by the Dennerle system.....This is a very different substrate system from the flourite based option, in that the additive Deponit is mixed in with an inert medium (quartz sand) and capped with more inert material. What Deponit is is something else...It's described as a long term mineral substrate. My re-collection of it from when I mixed it a couple of years ago is an organic-rich mixture of humus, clay and some sand. In short it is a peat-like additive (with some clay) and I don't intend using it or anything like it with the flourite and onyx (other than some mulm to kickstart things).

Nick


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## ringram

Wow! I guess I opened a big can-o-worms by asking that question.
Well, everyone, I finally decided on a substrate. I didn't want to order anything like this online as the cost becomes an issue, but I ended up getting Flourite at a local Petsmart(2 bags) and now the tank (20H) is in the early stages. I put the 30 lbs of flourite in last night and added a NICE piece of driftwood I got at a LFS too ---- I'm trying to be creative with this aquascape, by making it multi-level. What I mean is, sloping up towards the back, but making the low-ground on 2 sides, so essentially the tank will be viewable from 2 sides. The stems will go in the back and the carpet(glosso). I should have some pics soon (as soon as I get the tank fully set up). Thanks for all the help!!


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## omega

bharada said:


> While discussing substrates with the group he mentioned that he preferred Flourite over Eco-Complete as he felt that Eco needed to be re-enriched after about a year.


Why? Does this mean that the iron in Eco-Complete will be depleted over the course of the year while Flourite will not?



clay said:


> are you also putting peat at the bottom? the tank is an 80g and i am trying to figure out what to do. seems some of you believe that the substrate does not need to be rich with nutrients, and others do.


People put peat underneath the substrate in a new tank because it provides a source of organics and acidity to jump start the bacteria colony in the new substrate, that would otherwise take months to develop. It's not really there for fertilization per se. Why we need these bacteria? I have no idea. I remember people saying that these bacteria turn nutrients into a form that plants can take up. Why would this be important if you have (chelated) water column fertilization: I don't know. Maybe some more knowledgeable people on the forum can clear that up.


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## bharada

omega said:


> Why? Does this mean that the iron in Eco-Complete will be depleted over the course of the year while Flourite will not


That's the impression I got from him.


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## plantbrain

tsunami said:


> Miguel,
> 
> Try growing Didiplis diandra, Mayaca fluviatilis, Rotala macrandra, wallichii, or sp. Nanjenshan in there and report back. Myriophyllum tuberculatum is another one. These are my most iron sensitive plants and, unfortunately, also my favorites for scaping. I had no problems growing Hygrophilas, Ludwigias, Alternanthera, et al in an inert substrate with that lighting level... but some plants...
> 
> Carlos


As Carlos mentions wisely, plant specifics start to play a role.
But..............these substrate will help folks get closer and provides a back up that sand does not provide.

I have used plain sand for many years and tried a number of things with it.
I think if you tried a plant specific substrate, you'd notice an improvement as well, even on the easy to grow species.

It's not needed for many species, but it will help all species.

The peat/leonardite imic the same redox ranges a good bacterial colony maintains and provides the bacteria with an electron donor (like us, we exhale CO2).

I think Luis might have been talking about Flora Base.
He's trying out a few different things there so he'll report about that later.

That is if the muskrats and beavers don't gnaw his wood

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## clay

well, since we are discussing peat, where should i get the peat? i have noticed that perlite. should i get it from lowes, or a garden center?


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