# [Wet Thumb Forum]-au natruale



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

So i started this project. the idea was to plant a slightly heavily planted main dsplay with fish and inverts and then have a smaller 20% or more at least of the main tank volume refugium heavily planted on reverse lighting cycles from each other. and incorporate inline mechanical filtartion by use of floss or sponge media inline to the input and/or ouput of the refugum. was that clear?
the idea is to correct the plants reverse cycles of o2 to co2 during day and night. also supplying co2 and oxygen to the water at all times.
in the interest of diy i bought filtered, sanitized, non-silica Premium Playsand by Quikrete. I used about 2.5-3 inches. it ranges from extremely fine to what would be at least 10-25 grains of sugar for lack of a better measuring system at that size. 
right now i have with a red sea liquid test kit:
ammonia=0
nitrite=0
gh-8
kh-4
ph- 7.6
co2- 3ppm
water temp at=80F
i use compact flourescents at 4 watts per gallon in the only spectrum i could find i think 10k, Dayight. Seems white for daylight i feel they misclaim. grr.
questions:
Should I use any air once plants establish?
i use Red sea FloraFe and FloraVit. 
what should the flow be like in the proposed tank once plants are in? spraybars or basic return?
i see many claims about livestock that sounds suspicious like 1 Gold clam per gallon over at azgardens.com. how accurate is that? it cant be can it?
i wanted to mix clams and shrimp in both the tank and refugium. any thoughts? freshwater clam info is hard to find!
more filtration? canister? i mean the fully submersed media bothers me, a wet/dry should b more efficient, but it robs co2 doesnt it? so i figured plants , livestock and some mechanical inline with the reverse cycles. am i making a mistake, its hard to b sure of oneself without experience. 
will killis eat plants i have seen conflicting info?
feelings on seachem flourish tabs in sand like that?
thoughts about seachem flourih excel carbonite without co2??


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by urville:
> So i started this project. the idea was to plant a slightly heavily planted main dsplay with fish and inverts and then have a smaller 20% or more at least of the main tank volume refugium heavily planted on reverse lighting cycles from each other. and incorporate inline mechanical filtartion by use of floss or sponge media inline to the input and/or ouput of the refugum. was that clear?
> ...


Hi urville

I think you've got way too many questions for us ordinary folk. I'd suggest that you take a deep breath, read my book, and then post your questions, one at a time.


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## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

my local barnes and nob;e didnt have it, but i'll look online i have read the first amano book, but i was just really interested in other enthusiasts experiences and advice.
i'm sorry


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## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

uh... but thats my point i dont have co2 or filters, maybe you should reread my post...
this is natural. the only traditional filter on it is one sponge on the return line from the refugium..


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sorry, didn't mean to give you a hard time, but you gave me (at least) a data overload. You need to read a little more and post one thing at a time.

First, let's deal with filtration. You don't say how big your tank is. If it's 20 gal or more, I would recommend the Quick Filter. Find the April 27, 2004 folder (on the El Natural website) entitled, "Filters, ich, and turbidity". The key thing to remember is that if the plants are growing well, you really don't need that much biological filtration in the filter. Therefore, a sponge filter would probably be fine. 

Second, my book is only available on-line. Wal-mart.com has it for $23,87 (includes shipping).

Next question?


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## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

hmmm. would it maybe be at my walmart? local is so much faster...
what about the clams and that 1 per gallon thing, i feel this can in no way be right, or ratherit should be by load? the balance for me is the key, plants shrimp, clams. all filtering. but figuring that balance with the means and refrences available is difficult. no one seems to know much bout the clams. and the info on shrimp is diverse to say the least.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I have something like that set up. Running the lights in my 55 gallon tank on the opposite schedule as the plant filter (a separate 25 gallon tank). That should moderate any pH changes. plus the plants in one tank should help provide CO2 for plants on the other tank. You'd want to minimize surface agitation to keep from agitating CO2 out of the water. I seem to remember Diane saying that plants can get a lot of their carbon they need via their roots from the substrate... doubt that'd hold true with sand.

Diane's basic premise is to create an ecosystem using lots of plants and a soil substrate covered by gravel. She likes to put her tanks by windows to take advantage of sunlight. 4 watts of light should be fine. I think 10000K is ok, not sure on that tho. No filtration on a routine basis or water changes, tho a powerhead to move the water would be fine. Te mulm serves to help fertilize the plants. Oh and moderate stocking levels.

The shrimp are light on the bioload. I know with ghost shrimp, people don't generally even count them. Dunno about clams.

Your KH is about the lowest I'd let it go. You may need to buffer with baking soda to keep it from getting below 4dh.

Betty


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## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

thats my exact feelings about the reverse lighitng and plant filtrtion. i did some solid university style research on the gold clams. max size one inch, filter feeders, they do so well in fresh streams in america that they are considered a huge nuisance. so i think they will be perfect. the move oftheir own will and filter the substrate to about 1/2 an inch. you know honestly nothing agaisnt anyone but i am antsy on the use of soil or laterite or other subsrates, i tend to choose them on looks quality rather than benfit, and in fact some of the more impressive show tanks i've seen are sand. thats just IMO. 
i like the shrimp because they eat algae and detritus and cories are extremely important in my mind. yeah i monitored the kh constantly at first but it comes out at the tap 4 kh and never seems to change.

i know this is terrible and i probably just know it by a different name if my assupmtion is right but, MULM? this is a new word to me.

i've taken, since the note was originally sent to another board two weeks ago, to using flourish tabs under planted areas, and dosing with flourish excel in place of co2. i may dose iron too depends those tabs.


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## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

i guess i dont understand


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

urville, your method does not sound like Diana's natural tank, so I think you will get more responses if you post it in the general discussion section.


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## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

oh my god. sorry. it said natural not natural according to. at least i didnt think so.
my bad... riiiiight


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