# DIYers, fabricators, background creation theorists, got ideas?



## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

I took the following shot in Chicago recently. Semester is almost over, 
so I carved out some time to process those shots while enjoying our first snow. :smow:










See where I am headed with this? 
I want to print this shot on something pliable, inert and unaffected by water for the most part;
in order to mount it on something mold-able. 
I want to be able to plant epithelium _in_ the nooks & crannies.
{is that the correct term for both terrestrial and
immersed plants like java ferns?}

I have considered and rejected:
*poured latex mold;* too flimsy but does give wonderful depth capabilities
*terracotta:* all the right design capabilities, great for the plants to hook into.
unless I can fig out a way hold it up, it is too heavy

I am pondering:
*plain old styro sheet with flora foam for 3D*: good modeling capabilities, light, 
plants can sink into it

I am unsure of the chemical properties or ability to seal:
*that spray-in insulating sealer stuff:* you guys know what it is, it is used to seal
electrical boxes, it is all foamy when it comes out and drys solid. however it is
sooooo sticky and messy, it would be a desperation move. Think one manufacturer
called theirs "FoamO". 
The first consideration is, leaching of lethal stuff, a no-go. Of course this is going into
the shrimparium therefore; it has to be no more toxic to them than gravel.

The other consideration is the actual shot and the printing of same.
It is pretty easy to print photo-realistic with a desktop inkjet. 
For this however, I'll have it done at a shop.

*Cloth* is an obvious choice; does not have to be waterproof in this case, will leach a bit at first
is totally pliable.
*Plastics & Laminates*, not so sure. The aq backgrounds you buy in sheets are 
not elastic enough for 3D.
*Space age fabric, lycra-ish?* dunno.

There has to be a way to do this. Got ideas?


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Yes, but it is very vague. 

A few years ago a guy (gal?) created a way to make fake rocks using something like the latex/mold approach, but the material he used made a stiffer end product. If I remember correctly the person was in one of the northern European countries... MAYBE Norway???

It was a multi-step procedure:
1) Create a soft mold (latex, perhaps) of the rock. This would make a negative, and is flexible enough to be removed.
2) Use the latex mold to create the finished product. 
3) I think he was able to put some color in the latex mold, then pour in the epoxy-like mix so that the un-finished rock would have some deeper-in colors, then he finished it with some other kind of paint. 
4) Aging the finished products so any toxins leached out, several water changes at least. 

Perhaps someone reading this will remember better than I, and will be able to find a link. 

Expanding Foam filler is aquarium safe, but I do not know about Shrimp safe. I have it in my pond and a couple of tanks, and the fish and snails are fine. You would still have to create a negative mold of those roots, first. There is a pond-expanding foam filler that is black. Several pond-supply companies sell it.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd recomend carving it out of foam, building a fiber glass mold. Apply gel coat to the mold then a few layers of fiber glass and your good to go.


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## RestlessCrow (Nov 5, 2009)

I would DEFINITELY consider the Concrete over Styrofoam method. Print out a picture of what you want to carve.... hang it over your workbench, and refer to it while you are carving the foam.... You don't need to be an artist to do it.... Trust me. Just carve what looks good. You will probably find while carving however.... that whilst trying to follow the print of what you want..... the ol' creative juices will take over.. and you will add a little flourish here.... and there...... and you will end up with something truly unique.

If you'd like a good run through on the the technique, you can visit my ongoing journal here of this tank build. "This is going to get interesting"

If you think you'd like to give it a try.... I'd be glad to help out with the limited experience I do have with the method....  So far it's turned out quite nicely.


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## HX67 (Sep 24, 2009)

Diana K said:


> A few years ago a guy (gal?) created a way to make fake rocks using something like the latex/mold approach, but the material he used made a stiffer end product. If I remember correctly the person was in one of the northern European countries... MAYBE Norway???
> 
> Perhaps someone reading this will remember better than I, and will be able to find a link.


I can think of a fellow finn giving these instructions?

Using molding epoxy would be easier and give better possibilities with shapes and structure.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Photographed wood over a molded base - the idea is undoubtedly cheesy. But if applied and decorated in an ingenious way it may actually work very well.

I do believe you can not only make such a background but also, if inclined so, to turn it into a commercially successful product.

The background should not be affected by water, UV and also it must be scratch resistant. So here's my starting point about it:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=car wrap&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Also, do consider patenting this. Seriously. You probably don't want to watch the yacht of the guy that stole your idea pass by while you watch from the hot dog stand. 










--Nikolay


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

Thank You Diana, off to research the Northern Europen model.

To the rest, thanks for your fast replies and input. I have thoughts and comments to come. 
This is why I rely upon this forum more than any other community.
Geeks, like me do not say "Fah, buy a background from LBBPS."
They say "I have this hair-brained idea . . . What do you guys think?"
Yes, it is still snowing, I am hauling out the crockpot, breadmachine
& setting down for serious brain-frying.

Edit two minutes later: On second thought, per all of your suggestions,
it might be an interesting exercise to try all the suggestions, or as many
as the budget, patience and Artsy-Fartsy will allow. Yeah, she is a nut-case.


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## MoonFish (Feb 12, 2006)

I don't quite get the point? The picture is of a living tree. Once it's dead/underwater, all the bark will fall off and it would look quite different. Kind of unrealistic for a submerged set.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

giypsy said:


> Thank You Diana, off to research the Northern Europen model...
> 
> 
> > Maybe this:
> ...


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

HX67, that looks like the procedure and materials. I had not seen that particular post. Very interesting!
I will remember: Finland!

niko, I like the Styrofoam idea. I am working on something like that, but it is going very slowly. I will be using the Sika products to cover it, and concrete coloring powders. This is for my Lake Tang tank, so concrete in the water is not a problem. (pH and GH effects).


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

The snow has stopped, the living space smells wonderful.
I am regretting not being able to serve up some treats to you all for your help.

On to the research. Diana & HX67: Great site, the Northern Europen/Finnish method
is very interesting and do-able. *The Tanganyika 2006 tank* is definitely something to
aspire to. However, we here in the Great Lakes state use our water to pound nails.
Great for the shrimp, except in this city we have a public monument to: fluoride.
My ph out of the tap is 7.6 with a tap filter. It rises to 8 within 48hrs and will sneak
up to 8.2 if I let it. I have Mopani in the shrimparium, does not touch it. The only
thing thusfar that I have tried and helps is my DIY CO(2) giving me 7.8-9.

TAB & RestlessCrow; the styro options at *Greenstouch.com* are front runners at least 
through mock-up and testing how to get the image onto a 3D-base phases. 
Styro may end up being the ultimate choice if the Accountant {in my head} 
gets final say. BTW RestlessCrow; I am already a close observer of the "*Interesing*" journal. 
I am secretly hoping your journal provokes "*Hillbilly Homebrew*" to action.
I'd like to point out that I am by birth, a Joisey Grrl; due to the parents, 
I ended up in the middle of five big lakes.

Which brings us to *polymer foam.* Through the usual method of following where the links
and Google lead, I ended up right where the manufacturers of our filter sponges would
prefer us to be. A big hunk of that stuff has all the parameters we are discussing.
Again the question becomes how to get the image onto the 3D. Which leads us to

*Niko's* comments. The shrink wrap stuff, _DUH!_ Our fabulous, award winning bus system
gets wrapped in that stuff on a regular basis."Photographed wood over a molded base - the idea is undoubtedly cheesy. . . ."​






​_Do not try this at home kids.
Some things are better left to
the professionals, don't be cheap
hire one.
_​An astute observer, that Niko. However, I would like to clarify; I live in the 
official Great Lakes state, the Cheese-heads live _across Lake Michigan_, to the west.
I live at the base of the ring finger. We have a particular affection for the Italians, 
we are unsure how the rest of the world learns geography. Moving along . . .

Sorry Tab, fiber-glass = no go. I spent too many summers on an unsealed deck of
a "duck" boat (that would be the roof of a badly made duck blind boat) to ever
consider it. See caption, photo above.

And finally to MoonFish's question which is actually a good one:
Carving, molding, hiring a professional are all good options; however _that shot_ 
has great personal value. It was taken while on a wild shooting spree in Chicago
with my daughter the aspiring photog, upon the occasion of celebrating my Mother's
80th birthday. If you turn your head sideways, you will see it is a tree trunk but
when I was processing the photo, it was oriented horizontally and a bank of T5's
went off in my pea brain.{insert celestial, "Ahhhhh" here}

Laminating that shot onto a 3D background, artfully planting the epithilium and
all this dialogue/brain-bending is exactly the sort of thing that motivates me in general.
I spend hours here and a couple of other places, researching. I am hard-wired
for this geeky stuff. Without it, my tanks would go the way of the over-heated
guppies of my youth. On a larger scale, there is the opportunity to incorporate
artfully fabricated aqua-ponics into a final, larger project and enter it into
*ArtPrize 2010* in my cool little city. There were many "rapids" related entries but . . .
_*Nobody*_ entered a _water_ project. _shhhhhhhhh_!

Go big or go home.
Thanks very much for the willingness to help me figure this out!

P.S. The long recap is for the benefit of two local artists who
have graciously consented to review the hair-brained scheme.
A former teacher, friend and fabulous metal-smith, *David Huang* 
who works in the dreaded (for us) copper. His Artist's studio album is just as
fascinating as his award winning artwork.
And a neighbor, professional photographer.


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## MoonFish (Feb 12, 2006)

I don't mean to threadcrap. I meant you should let the mind wonder a bit. If you found some driftwood burl that reminded you of that piece or did a creation of wood and foam to get some similarity. Picture that piece underwater long enough for plants to grow on it, it would be different than it looks in that pic.


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

MoonFish said:


> I meant you should let the mind wonder a bit. If you found some driftwood burl that reminded you of that piece . . .


It occurred to me that the picture in my head may not translate
well into words. Does this help?









The first shot is a bit bigger than my tank. This shot is a scale mock-up
from an empty tank shot I had, documenting the tank set-up.

Admittedly it now has great cheese-factor as the elements are just cut
and pasted on a flat image, not seamlessly integrated.
However, if it can be done, Niko's first comments are spot on.


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## RestlessCrow (Nov 5, 2009)

I checked out that Greenstouch link..... The West System Epoxy they used is exactly what I used to bond my styrofoam to the backboard made out of Styrofoam. I used the exact same foam as they did as well.

Two comments on this method:

1: I am very well versed with it. I use it to build boats. I have used it to bond pink foam into the hull of a boat thus making a laminate with no "burning or melting effects". There is nothing in the epoxy that will react with the styrofoam chemically. (Like if you dumped some laquer thinner on the styrofoam.) HOWEVER..... the West System IS exothermic. It generates heat as part of the curing process. If you have it spread thin, like brushed out on the surface of something, the heat is unnoticable. However.... if you leave it in a mixing cup too long, the greater concentrated mass will generate, and most importantly HOLD the heat... higher heat means a shorter curing time. I can't tell you HOW many times I've mixed a small amount, approx. 1 ounce, in a small plastic souffle cup and then had the phone ring. I set the cup down on the work bench, and ten minutes later, the plastic is melted and the expoxy is all over the work bench hard as a rock. On the flip side, when brushed on a surface, such as a sheet of plywood to waterproof it, it can sometimes take two hours or more to cure because the large surface area dissipates the heat so quickly that it takes FOREVER to cure. I can't for the life of me figure out what the person from Greenstouch did to cause the Epoxy to generate that much heat. Here's a picture of me brainstorming in one of the boats I've built(Not that ya really care):










2. The epoxy will dry with a glossy finish, so you will have a shiny, sandy surface. There's also the problem of "amine blush" which is a byproduct of the curing process. It's a filmy... greasy feeling deposit on the surface that must be washed off with soap and water. This is exactly why I chose to go with the concrete over styrofoam method. The concrete takes and holds dye better, and will not fade. The only "approved" way of tinting the West system is to add graphite or aluminum powder as these don't interfere with the epoxy. The concrete will not end up with a glossy finish, and the concrete is naturally textured. I used Quikcrete's Sand/topping mix mixed very thin, and brushed on heavy for each layer, approx 3-4 layers over my foam.

Just my two bits..... I know everyone has, and is entitled to their opinion, but since I'm very well versed with the West System, I just wanted to weigh in here. In my earlier post I put a link to the Tank Journal that shows step by step how my background was done. Good [email protected]


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## RestlessCrow (Nov 5, 2009)

giypsy said:


> I'd like to point out that I am by birth, a Joisey Grrl; due to the parents,
> I ended up in the middle of five big lakes.


Ok.... somehow I managed to post a response before reading the whole thing..... Dunno how I did that. LOL Nice to see another Jersyite on here!!!!!!

I think that the reason for such a hasty reply on my part was due to my familiarity with the West System, and the fact that he mixed the dye right in with it. As soon as I read that.... "OH NO" went through my head. It doesn't surprise me that the dye faded almost immediately. [-X

But anyhoo.... for ME.... I used the West System to bond the foam layers to the main sheet. I feel it holds stronger than the Silicone.... I did however use Silicone to bond it to the back of the tank. Also.... knowing how expensive the West System is.... to use it to coat the foam like that seemed wasteful to me. Especially when I got a 50# bag of topping mix for about seven bucks. (And barely used an eighth of the bag!)

I put some Kudos in my last post on "Interesting" to the "Hillbilly Homebrew Hour" and was attempting to egg him on a little. <grin> and since we have made the decision to keep the carpet in my build.... you just might see some quick and interesting progress soon. 

Ok. I'm done. Really now! I'll shut up! I think this make my two cents into four!


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

*RestlessCrow*, no worries! That is exactly the geeky info I am looking for.
You took the not-so-subtle hint re: duck boat & boat building/marine and ran with it.
My Dad, the man who never put the boat in the water in April like "normal" people
do, is no longer here to ask these questions of. We had to wait until the end of _June_
before he was finished _every_ spring, stripping the hull, sanding the wood, re-applying
whatever secret formula he had cooked up, ad nauseum. We hated that boat.
However, I admit with some chagrin, the fruit does not fall far from the tree.

So if I understand your comments regarding the West System over pink method,
you are saying his overheating _may_ have been caused by mixing the dye with the
West.S epoxy, yes? Since I am really shooting for the image over backing in this smaller
case, I would not use the dye; however I probably would if I do a non-image, larger
rock-scape for the ArtPrize large-scale.

The West.S might still be useful as a stiffener coat for the styro before laminating the image.
With these facts in mind, I now need to consider how permeable I want the background
to be at the time I must attach the plants. Old fashioned hairpins have been used
for substrate attachment, seems reasonable to me they can be used to anchor
the plants to the shallower bits of the background and to anchor netting for
moss/riccia grow out to the protruding bits. An extra plasticizing dip may be useful
there. I have been meaning to pick some up to coat the jaws of the channel lock
pliers I use for jewelry anyway.

I would have to clean the epoxy coat of the curing film you mentioned; can I use Dawn
dishwashing detergent or should I use an alcohol wipe? (absolutely no Murphy's, I hate the
smell to this day because of the sail boat)
BTW, I seriously considered a summer at the boat building school in Mystic, I think?
Or maybe it was near the Whaling Museum somewhere out there.
That was soooo long ago when I was young and could still punish my right arm with impunity.
Now where is that tube of capsasin again?

Just a point of clarification: Dad had the sail boat with meticulous refinish every spring.
Someone else owned the badly finished duck boat. Both almost killed my love
of water and boating.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

It seems like the main point in the West System is to keep the coats thin. But will this, plus a lamination, allow for permeability regarding the flora to be attached? Very awesome thread by the way...


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

niko said:


> The background should not be affected by water, UV and also it must be scratch resistant. So here's my starting point about it:
> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=car wrap&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
> --Nikolay


Sorry Niko, printable, vehicle wrap type products are out. 
While researching I found a vid of the process of wrapping a boat,
the words "fire-extinguisher" and "torch" were bandied about.
Same on a vehicle wrap site.
Probably not a good idea while experimenting with pink foam.
Unless I can find a low-heat, printable variety not sold by manufacturers
in lots of half a ton, from China, I'm just saying.

Back to cloth, a more promising material as there are several
products offered to electronic quilters, one of which is non-woven poly-rayon.
Thanks for the feedback!


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## intothenew (Aug 1, 2008)

Just a few feasible alternatives:

1. Plant a tree of similar character in the yard beyond the back of the tank. Place a window, preferably of starphire, just behind the tank. This method would require a tall tank, and a love seat. Your apparent disregard for stem plants should allow for a viewing frame rotated ninety degrees from horizon, hence the love seat. Certainly some sort of fabricated "substrate" oriented vertical would have to be manufactured.

2. If the first suggestion does not appeal to your sense of urgency, I would suggest an elaborately modified shopping cart. We simply use the tank as suggested and install it into a carefully whittled cart that allows an unobstructed view through. You are therefore mobile, and can take the tank to this beautiful specimen of flora. I would suggest a closed cell mattress to accompany this set-up in lieu of a love seat.

3. This method, with some slight modifications, could appeal to the more contemporary. Spray foam, at least any time I have used it, recreates the photo as shown almost exactly. Horrid random convexities grow from only tiny applications. I would think that thin strips of plastic, properly abused with a heat gun, would recreate the flaky feel of the bark. A top coat of Sika would leave only your mastery of color to question.


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## RestlessCrow (Nov 5, 2009)

Gipsy.... you just hit me in the head with a two by four of a brainstorm..... I hope I can explain it fully to you.

First: find someone who can print your print on canvas. My friend runs an art gallery and I was helping her out this weekend. I marveled at this one "painting" only to find out that it was a photo printed on canvas. I can put you in touch with her if you need.

SECOND: Take your canvas, hang it up over your foam. Carve the foam to match as best as possible. It may take some doing.... but I believe it's possible. See if you can get the canvas print to conform.... Again.... I believe it's possible. (I'm going out on a creative limb here.)

Third.... once the foam is carved and you can get the print to conform..... coat the foam with epoxy. Let it cure until slightly tacky, and then press the print into the tacky epoxy and then coat it with epoxy.... Just like you would when applying fiberglass. (Don't worry... West System Epoxy isn't nearly as bad as the old polyester resins of old...)

Fourth.... once tacky again.... start re-coating until you build at least three layers of West System or until the weave of the canvas is filled. (note: As long as the epoxy is not fully cured you can keep recoating. Once it is cured, you must remove the Amine blush.... and to answer your question, Dawn Dish detergent is best, coupled with a scotch bright pad.)

Two more things.... I would KILL to be a part of the boatbuilding school at Mystic..... <grin> and second.... I was TOTALLY going out on a limb trying to figure out how the West System generated enough heat to melt the foam.... my only guess was that the dye thickened it enough to make it hold heat, but that's dang near impossible. I COULD tell you however.... about the time I ran out of those little plastic souffle cups when mixing up a batch of epoxy and used a styrofoam cup instead to mix a big batch. About the time I felt the heat through the cup..... the batch was smoking and bubbling..... I ran to the door and hucked it out into the grass and in some unbelievable stroke of luck, it landed right side up like a badminton birdie would land, and sat there and smoked and bubbled and melted the cup into the grass..... Somewhere in my garage is this little trophy of stupidity (I KNEW better) complete with little bits of grass and twigs stuck in it.

On another note..... If you can't find someone to print it for you.... I will put you in touch with my friend. Actually.... Here's the link: LeReve Gallery Her name is Sue.... Tell her "McGyver" sent you.

If you want..... I'd be happy to try everything I just typed out here.... Get me a print.... I've got enough WS for something small like this..... and I KNOW I have enough Styrofoam left over.... It'd be a fun project!


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

intothenew said:


> Just a few feasible alternatives:
> 
> 1. Plant a tree of similar character in the yard beyond the back of the tank. Place a window, preferably of starphire,
> 
> ...


Somebody remind me never to read IntoTheNew comment, post, blog, tank journal 
before class. I laughed so hard, I almost did not get out the door.
Unless, of course I do not want to go anyway.

To the first: only one prob with that one, no room for anyone else to enjoy the view. 
Oh, wait that assumes there IS someone else, nevermind.

To the second: that shopping cart has some interesting unintended consequences,
I would garner lots of unsolicited donations for whatever in Chicago with an artfully encased
tank-with-a-view for the native Chicagoans to admire their tree through. Might even
rival the street drummers in income generation.

To the third: now we are getting somewhere, at least as far as the large-scale up 
for consideration. I did ponder abusing some clear poly shopping bags as I have done
in the past, their uncontrolled shrinking creates the bark-ish texture, sort of.
If you are careful with the iron, the texture comes out something like Tyvek.
Shrinking anything, I think we can conclude, must be done with an Embosser or
a carefully managed heat gun. Torches & fire extinguishers I leave to
the metal-smiths.

I think we have a consensus; carve the foam already! 
More on that in the Restless Crow reply . . .


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## giypsy (Oct 6, 2009)

RestlessCrow said:


> Gipsy.... you just hit me in the head with a two by four of a brainstorm..... I hope I can explain it fully to you.
> 
> First: find someone who can print your print on canvas.
> SECOND: Take your canvas, hang it up over your foam. Carve the foam
> ...


Here is the recap: Consensus = carve the foam, already!

To the first and second bits, that was one of the options on page one for those who are
just tuning in and did not read all the various considerations. With regard to actually
mapping out the image prior to carving; I have access to one of those projectors people 
use for boring PowerPoint crap in meeting & conventions. The kind with the four hundred
dollar bulb that you hook up to the laptop. Thought I would project the image onto
the bonded foam sheets to a depth of no more than 2.5". 
Then draw in elevations like a topographical map.
Carve the foam already!

To the third bit; here is where it gets a wee bit tricky according to all I observed
of boat wrapping namely; pleats and tucks over the 3D to get the depth.
I am considering cutting into the image on the final fabric here and there, taking out
the excess wedge of fabric, marrying the butt ends, then slapping a patch with
registration marks to hide the seams. This could be over-painted for better cammo
or I could try to seam where moss nets would cover anyway.

Finally we come to the smelly, overheating West System coat. Dawn detergent
it is. McGyver was my hero, I think I have been trying to emulate him ever since.

I expect once finals are over next Thursday, no one will be able to keep
me out of the big-box hardware store. The small scale will be my Christmas
vacation project. Creative, messy and turning my kitchen into what it is 
supposed to be; a mad science lab.

One more question . . .
Why are we using _plastic_ souffle cups when cheap pyrex glass cups are readily available
at Goodwill? Even brand new they are cheap.


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## gwclark (May 10, 2010)

I know I'm resurecting an old post; but I found this site yesterday that may be of help to others interested in something like this.


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