# [Wet Thumb Forum]-New setup



## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

Note that this is long. I'd rather give too much detail than too little. But I'm still sorry for the length.

I'm pretty new to the idea of having plants in my aquarium, so I'm looking for advice, criticisms, suggestions, praise, or money. Whichever is easiest. But of course I prefer the last two.









I've had fish for the last few years, and have always had a regular gravel substrate. I've performed near weekly water changes, scrubbing the algae off the glass. Bah.

I know very little about a lot.







The tank I have is an Eclipse 37 gallon tank, with two fluorescent lights and a filtration system built into the lid. I believe the lights are 18 watts per bulb (there are two) but the bulbs have no listing. The filter is a charcoal filter, and the water from that goes to something called a BioWheel. I don't know how common this is, or even what it does. I haven't seen anyone mention much about this setup at all, which is why I'm describing it so much.

I have Ms. Walstad's book, and I've been trying to rework my fish tank to be a happier place for my single fantail goldfish, Glenda. There's a lot to learn, so I want to make sure I'm on the right track.

Recently I got a few different test kits -- the first one was advertised as "complete" but missed things like KH, GH, and alkalinity. I should also mention that color matching is difficult for me, so I'm never positive of the readings. Any hints about other methods would be appreciated. I've seen a digital pH meter, but that's one number of a whole bunch. But keep in mind that my readings could be way off due to my slight color blindness.

Last Friday I got a small hex tank for temporary Glenda housing. It's also an Eclipse with a smaller version of the filters I described above. I transferred a fair bit of the gravel from the 37 gallon tank, filled the hex tank with water from the big tank, then transferred Glenda. She wasn't happy, but I couldn't think of a better way to replace the gravel substrate. After doing this transfer, I did a water test on the hex tank:

nitrate 20 ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
ammonia 0 ppm
GH 150-300 ppm
KH 180 ppm
pH 8.4

The pH surprised me a lot, and of course it's the reading I'm most unsure about.

I drained all the water from the big tank, and took out the gravel. Put down about an inch and a half of organic garden soil, then covered it with about a half inch of gravel. Filled the tank again, and it was very cloudy. A day later the cloudiness hadn't cleared up at all, so I did a nearly full water change.

A day after that settled, I tested the water in the big tank again. I got very similar results to the ones listed above, so I transferred Glenda back to the big tank. Note that when I first transferred her, I didn't have the air stone in place. She kept racing to the top, taking in a big gulp of air, then swimming down and releasing it through her gills. I'd much rather kill the plants than the fish, so I dropped the air stone in there too. Glenda stopped gasping, so I'm considering removing the air stone again (as per Ms. Walstad's note about air stones removing too much CO2).

One thing I neglected to do was submerge the soil outside of the main tank. So I have bunches of floating crud (sticks, bark, et cetera). I've been working on netting out most of it, but it's very annoying.

After that first water change to remove the cloudy water, it seems that something has decided to make the water green. I'm not concerned, but I am curious about it.

I'm also not very skilled at identifying plants, so this is another thing I'm learning about. Somewhere on the forums here I saw a list of plants and their light requirements, so I compiled a list of low light plants (since I'm pretty sure I'm at 1 watt per gallon). Trundled off to one of the local fish stores, and the only plants I could find were hornwort, moneywort, some sad looking java fern, and some sword plants. The sword plants were labeled as ciliata (or something similar) with low light requirements. So I ordered more plants online (from AquaBotanic, of course) and just received those today. Currently in the tank I have all of the plants I got from the local store, dwarf sag, Thai water onion, anubias nana, and anubias coffeefolia. And some algae, but I didn't intentionally put that in there. Oh, and some tiny floating plants that I don't know the names of.

In regards to the java fern -- is it going to root into the soil substrate? The guy at the local fish store said it wouldn't root into gravel and I'd need to put some wood in the tank. I have no issues with putting wood in the tank, but if it's not necessary then I won't.

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that I have photos of the whole shebang online. The last photo is of the unidentified plants, but the color's off -- they're a bright green, but got washed out with the camera flash.

So if anyone's still reading, thanks.


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

Note that this is long. I'd rather give too much detail than too little. But I'm still sorry for the length.

I'm pretty new to the idea of having plants in my aquarium, so I'm looking for advice, criticisms, suggestions, praise, or money. Whichever is easiest. But of course I prefer the last two.









I've had fish for the last few years, and have always had a regular gravel substrate. I've performed near weekly water changes, scrubbing the algae off the glass. Bah.

I know very little about a lot.







The tank I have is an Eclipse 37 gallon tank, with two fluorescent lights and a filtration system built into the lid. I believe the lights are 18 watts per bulb (there are two) but the bulbs have no listing. The filter is a charcoal filter, and the water from that goes to something called a BioWheel. I don't know how common this is, or even what it does. I haven't seen anyone mention much about this setup at all, which is why I'm describing it so much.

I have Ms. Walstad's book, and I've been trying to rework my fish tank to be a happier place for my single fantail goldfish, Glenda. There's a lot to learn, so I want to make sure I'm on the right track.

Recently I got a few different test kits -- the first one was advertised as "complete" but missed things like KH, GH, and alkalinity. I should also mention that color matching is difficult for me, so I'm never positive of the readings. Any hints about other methods would be appreciated. I've seen a digital pH meter, but that's one number of a whole bunch. But keep in mind that my readings could be way off due to my slight color blindness.

Last Friday I got a small hex tank for temporary Glenda housing. It's also an Eclipse with a smaller version of the filters I described above. I transferred a fair bit of the gravel from the 37 gallon tank, filled the hex tank with water from the big tank, then transferred Glenda. She wasn't happy, but I couldn't think of a better way to replace the gravel substrate. After doing this transfer, I did a water test on the hex tank:

nitrate 20 ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
ammonia 0 ppm
GH 150-300 ppm
KH 180 ppm
pH 8.4

The pH surprised me a lot, and of course it's the reading I'm most unsure about.

I drained all the water from the big tank, and took out the gravel. Put down about an inch and a half of organic garden soil, then covered it with about a half inch of gravel. Filled the tank again, and it was very cloudy. A day later the cloudiness hadn't cleared up at all, so I did a nearly full water change.

A day after that settled, I tested the water in the big tank again. I got very similar results to the ones listed above, so I transferred Glenda back to the big tank. Note that when I first transferred her, I didn't have the air stone in place. She kept racing to the top, taking in a big gulp of air, then swimming down and releasing it through her gills. I'd much rather kill the plants than the fish, so I dropped the air stone in there too. Glenda stopped gasping, so I'm considering removing the air stone again (as per Ms. Walstad's note about air stones removing too much CO2).

One thing I neglected to do was submerge the soil outside of the main tank. So I have bunches of floating crud (sticks, bark, et cetera). I've been working on netting out most of it, but it's very annoying.

After that first water change to remove the cloudy water, it seems that something has decided to make the water green. I'm not concerned, but I am curious about it.

I'm also not very skilled at identifying plants, so this is another thing I'm learning about. Somewhere on the forums here I saw a list of plants and their light requirements, so I compiled a list of low light plants (since I'm pretty sure I'm at 1 watt per gallon). Trundled off to one of the local fish stores, and the only plants I could find were hornwort, moneywort, some sad looking java fern, and some sword plants. The sword plants were labeled as ciliata (or something similar) with low light requirements. So I ordered more plants online (from AquaBotanic, of course) and just received those today. Currently in the tank I have all of the plants I got from the local store, dwarf sag, Thai water onion, anubias nana, and anubias coffeefolia. And some algae, but I didn't intentionally put that in there. Oh, and some tiny floating plants that I don't know the names of.

In regards to the java fern -- is it going to root into the soil substrate? The guy at the local fish store said it wouldn't root into gravel and I'd need to put some wood in the tank. I have no issues with putting wood in the tank, but if it's not necessary then I won't.

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that I have photos of the whole shebang online. The last photo is of the unidentified plants, but the color's off -- they're a bright green, but got washed out with the camera flash.

So if anyone's still reading, thanks.


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

Just to sum up the lengthy post into some easily assimilated questions:

Does anyone have any experience with the Eclipse filter system, or any opinions on it?
Is there a way to perform water tests without doing the color matching?
Should I take out the air stone from the tank? Put in a smaller one? Leave it alone?
What makes the water green, and how can I fix it?
Can anyone identify the tiny floating plants?
Will the Java fern need wood, or will it be okay with just the soil?
Any other general things to keep in mind?


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

A goldie... cool! Glenda's Awsome!








I've been thinking about doing a natural planted tank for my goldies but haven't yet.

Biowheels are a good home for the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrAte. however in a natural planted tank, a powerhead with a prefilter pushing the water is all you need. The soil and plants should take care of the ammonia produced.

That's pretty low light. I see a window in one of the pics. Is it a south window? I'd move the tank directly in front of the window and open the blinds.

I have trouble with the color tests too. with KH of 180, pH of 8.4 isn't something that is surprising. Does your pH usually run lower than that? Can you get someone to give you a second opinion? I am a bit surprised that nitrAte is 20ppm.

You'll want to add another half inch of gravel... maybe another inch. I'd be worried about Glenda rooting and digging up the soil. How large is your gravel? I was just reading Diane's book again last nite and she recommends very small gravel. Also does your dechlorinator handle heavy metals? That's one thing that stuck out last nite from my read of Diane's book. When soil in initially submerged, it releases heavy metals.

Green water may be an algae bloom. Daphnia magna in a breeder net will make short work of that. I ordered some daphnia from Dallas Discus. I'm still culturing them cuz the fish love to eat them.

I'd base the airstone decision on Glenda's behavior. Lose it if you can.

The little floating plants are duckweed.

generally people tie java ferns to something. you could tie it to that big decoration you have in the tank.


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Biowheels are a good home for the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrAte. however in a natural planted tank, a powerhead with a prefilter pushing the water is all you need. The soil and plants should take care of the ammonia produced.


But having the biowheel isn't going to hurt anything, is it? Or the charcoal in the filter?


> quote:
> 
> That's pretty low light. I see a window in one of the pics. Is it a south window? I'd move the tank directly in front of the window and open the blinds.


The window you can see in the pictures is a west facing window, but there is one directly to the left. When the blinds are open the tank gets about an hour or two of full sunlight.


> quote:
> 
> I have trouble with the color tests too. with KH of 180, pH of 8.4 isn't something that is surprising. Does your pH usually run lower than that? Can you get someone to give you a second opinion? I am a bit surprised that nitrAte is 20ppm.


Both test kits that I have are hard to make out the pH. One has values of 8.4, 7.2, and so on down. Note the rather large gap between those first two values. The other is a combination, and has a high range pH as well as a low range pH test. When I do the low range ("normal") test, it goes to the highest pH, 7.6. So I'm pretty sure the pH is out of that range. The high range pH test I get readings of 7.8, 8.0, or 8.2 based on what color I think the test is. Note that I've tested it a few times in a row, and get different readings each time.

The nitrate test goes from 0 ppm to 20 ppm, so it could very well be less than 20 ppm. I'll test it again tomorrow.


> quote:
> 
> You'll want to add another half inch of gravel... maybe another inch. I'd be worried about Glenda rooting and digging up the soil. How large is your gravel? I was just reading Diane's book again last nite and she recommends very small gravel. Also does your dechlorinator handle heavy metals? That's one thing that stuck out last nite from my read of Diane's book. When soil in initially submerged, it releases heavy metals.


I based the gravel and soil depths directly on the information in Diana's book (page 138, to be precise). So far Glenda has done a little bit of rooting around, but it hasn't been enough to disturb the soil underneath the gravel.

The gravel I have is in fact very small. I'd guess that the largest pieces are a quarter inch, but the vast majority of the pieces are closer to an eighth of an inch.

I'll have to look into the heavy metals more to give you a decent answer on that. For the time being, though, insert an "I dunno" here.


> quote:
> 
> Green water may be an algae bloom. Daphnia magna in a breeder net will make short work of that. I ordered some daphnia from Dallas Discus. I'm still culturing them cuz the fish love to eat them.


Daphnia magna is a... plant? Fish? Very soggy waffle? A breeder net is, I'm assuming, something that will prevent Glenda from munching on whatever is in the net, yes? None of the goldfish that I've had have ever reproduced, so I have no experience with this sort of thing.


> quote:
> 
> I'd base the airstone decision on Glenda's behavior. Lose it if you can.


I have tomorrow off, so I'll take out the air stone and keep an eye on Glenda over a period of several hours. I know I'm probably over paranoid (common thing for me to do with all of my pets) but I've had Glenda for almost four years now and don't want to cause her any discomfort.


> quote:
> 
> The little floating plants are duckweed.


Cool. I thought they might be, but nice to have a definite answer.


> quote:
> 
> generally people tie java ferns to something. you could tie it to that big decoration you have in the tank.


I will probably do that tomorrow as well.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

> quote:
> 
> But having the biowheel isn't going to hurt anything, is it? Or the charcoal in the filter?


If your goal is to have a balanced natural planted tank, I'd bet the biological and chemical filtration probably will upset that balance and you'll see nitrAtes building up faster than they would without the filter. Why? cuz the biofilter bacteria will be competing with the plants for ammonia.

Given your KH, the high range test is the one to use. I've seen pH meters fairly cheap.



> quote:
> 
> I based the gravel and soil depths directly on the information in Diana's book (page 138, to be precise). So far Glenda has done a little bit of rooting around, but it hasn't been enough to disturb the soil underneath the gravel.


She also says to choose fish that don't root in the gravel.









Daphnia are water fleas.
http://www.lfscultures.com/p12.html


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It sounds like you know what you're doing. Glad to hear that the hex tank is getting window light, as your plants will certainly need more than 1 watt/gal.

It's good that you added an airstone for Glenda. Hex tanks are usually tall with little surface area for oxygen to enter water. You may always need to have an airstone in this tank. But let Glenda be your guide!

If Glenda seems happy and plants are growing, I wouldn't worry about heavy metals. Apparently, the soil you chose doesn't have a metal problem.

Also, I hope I didn't completely descredit fish that dig in the gravel. Folks, you don't need to follow my book to the letter! Potential gravel-diggers may be a little more trouble than Neon Tetras, but hey, they've got more personality! When I retire and have more time, I hope to start up another colony of gravel-digging cichlids.

You and Betty are showing all of us that you can have goldfish with nice planted tanks. Hurrah!


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> It sounds like you know what you're doing.


Thanks for saying so, but I hardly feel like I know what I'm doing.










> quote:
> 
> Glad to hear that the hex tank is getting window light, as your plants will certainly need more than 1 watt/gal.


Note that both tanks get window light, and both for about the same amount of time. And again, I'm not positive on the numbers I quoted.


> quote:
> 
> It's good that you added an airstone for Glenda. Hex tanks are usually tall with little surface area for oxygen to enter water. You may always need to have an airstone in this tank. But let Glenda be your guide!


Just to be clear, the hex tank is the temporary tank while I make major changes to the main tank. The hex tank is a five gallon tank, so it is definitely too small for Glenda to stay in for any extended period of time.

Of course the main tank is a "show" tank, so it's pretty tall. (I bought the tank long before I had any idea what I was doing) The actual tank measurements are 30 inches wide, 22 inches high, and 12 inches deep. (So the water surface is 30x12 and the water depth is 22 inches)

On Friday I did take out the air stone from the main tank. Glenda seems to be doing fine so far, I haven't seen her gasping at all. And as I noted before, her general activity level is very much increased, and she seems pretty happy.


> quote:
> 
> If Glenda seems happy and plants are growing, I wouldn't worry about heavy metals. Apparently, the soil you chose doesn't have a metal problem.


It has been just a week or so, so at this point I'm not sure about the plant growth. It does seem like there are a few new leaves on the moneywort, but I'm not positive. I'll have to take a picture so I can compare it a bit later (meaning, I'm not sure if they're new leaves or it's just that I didn't notice them before).

The green water tint seems to be clearing up a bit, but there is a bit of algae growth on the plants. The algae is almost like a dust -- I can brush it off the plants fairly easily. And it doesn't seem to be overtaking the tank so far, so I'm just waiting to see how it all progresses.

I haven't had a lot of time to do much with the tank, especially since I've been fighting a nasty cold for the last few days. But I did talk to a few local fish stores, and no one seems to have any daphnia. I may end up having to order some online if the green water doesn't clear itself up.


> quote:
> 
> Also, I hope I didn't completely descredit fish that dig in the gravel. Folks, you don't need to follow my book to the letter!


Oh I realize this, but I want to get things started properly. I would hate to overlook some critical thing and end up killing Glenda because of it. And at this point I'm still learning how it all interacts, and finding out what's critical and what isn't.


> quote:
> 
> You and Betty are showing all of us that you can have goldfish with nice planted tanks. Hurrah!


Well I have to say, I really like the low-tech approach to having a planted aquarium. And I would never have been willing to do this sort of setup if I didn't have at least a rough guideline, so I have you to thank for your book.


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

I've added a few photos of the plants to Glenda's gallery (linked in the first post in the thread). It really does look to me like the moneywort is growing, and I'm certain that the java fern has at least one new leaf. So far so good.

And I forgot to mention that I no longer have duckweed in the tank. Apparently Glenda thinks it's yummy.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

*chuckle* My goldies love duckweed. I grow it in another tank and feed it to them daily.


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

Well this morning I noticed Glenda swimming around near the surface. I'm not sure if she was nibbling at the little pieces of bark, or gasping for air. But I erred on the side of caution and put the air stone back in.

I cleared the suspected algae off of the plants, too. I say suspected algae because it could be just dirt. It didn't seem like it had increased since the last time I looked, and brushed off of the leaves quite easily.

I also took out two pieces of something I can't identify. Each piece was a chunk of something like jelly. It would have been totally transparent except for the bits of dirt clinging to the outside. They seemed to be neutrally buoyant -- not sinking or floating, just going with the current. Any ideas on what this stuff is?

I should also note that I am now positive that the plants are growing. There are a number of new leaves on various plants.


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## Slippery Fingers (Mar 19, 2003)

> quote:
> 
> I also took out two pieces of something I can't identify. Each piece was a chunk of something like jelly. It would have been totally transparent except for the bits of dirt clinging to the outside. They seemed to be neutrally buoyant -- not sinking or floating, just going with the current. Any ideas on what this stuff is?


Do you have snails in this tank? The gel may be the eggs of the snails.

BC


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## nkuvu (Dec 25, 2004)

Shortly after I first put the plants in the tank, I noticed a couple of tiny snails. But I haven't seen them since (not too surprising with the number of places to hide). But the snails were no bigger than an eighth of an inch across. Each piece that I've found so far of the gel stuff has been almost half an inch across. So big enough to fit a whole bunch of the tiny snails.

But I'm not discounting the possibility of tiny snails creating at least three relatively huge egg masses -- I've heard of plenty of stranger stuff in nature.

Sheesh, for all I know it could just be the Stress Coat congealing into chunks.


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