# Miracle-Gro new organic soil



## ttk86

I think our beloved Miracle-Gro organic potting mix has been discontinued and replaced by their nature care products. They have 3 types of soil for sale: organic potting mix, organic garden soil and organic raised bed soil. Both potting mix and garden soil are advertised with water converse feature (not sure if this is a good thing). Only raised bed soil does not have organic fertilizer listed in ingredients.

http://en-ca.naturescare.com/smg/go...soil-and-potting-mix-natures-care/cat10620006

Thoughts on the products?


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## DutchMuch

Yea I have seen people use the kind with the water conservatives in it, they are fish safe it seems, unless they got lucky.


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## Michael

We definitely want to avoid the versions with perlite because that stuff floats like styrofoam!

"Water Conserve" is not identified or listed in the ingredients. This may be nothing more than marketing hype, or it may be one of the hygroscopic polymers that have become so popular in potting mixes. Its effects in aquaria are unknown.

The "organic fertilizer" component used to be poultry litter only, but now includes alfalfa meal, bone meal, kelp meal, and earthworm castings. On the theory that diverse nutrient sources are good, this may be an improvement over the old product.

My guess is that these products will have similar advantages and disadvantages as the old MG Organic Choice, expect for the perlite which will make a major mess in any aquarium.


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## DutchMuch

Yea perlite is a floater, once remove you should be good however.


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## ttk86

Only the potting mix has perlite listed. I've seen many videos of people putting the soil directly from bag to tank so perlite can cause huge mess. Among the 3 maybe garden soil looks the best?


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## DutchMuch

ttk86 said:


> Only the potting mix has perlite listed. I've seen many videos of people putting the soil directly from bag to tank so perlite can cause huge mess. Among the 3 maybe garden soil looks the best?


First one is the best.


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## Michael

I disagree. I would choose the raised bed version because it has slightly lower nutrient levels. One of the predictable problems with the old MGOC is the ammonia spike and extended cycle time caused by excess nitrogen. And I would still mineralize the raised bed formula AND mix it with a high cation exchange capacity (CEC) no-nutrient substrate like Safe-T-Sorb or Flourite. This will make the organic content more stable and reduce the percentage of organic matter to reasonable levels.

See "Suitable soils for the Walstad method" for an extended discussion of this.


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## DutchMuch

Michael said:


> See "Suitable soils for the Walstad method" for an extended discussion of this.


Ah ok well if its for a walstad (never have done one) I believe you!
I was suggesting for a high tech tank, the first is the best for that from what I have seen.


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## ttk86

DutchMuch said:


> I was suggesting for a high tech tank, the first is the best for that from what I have seen.


You use soil in high tech tank? This is the first I've heard about it. I thought people only use aquarium substrate like ADA amazonia for high tech.


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## DutchMuch

ttk86 said:


> You use soil in high tech tank? This is the first I've heard about it. I thought people only use aquarium substrate like ADA amazonia for high tech.


LOL, where did you hear that from? 
ADA Amazonia has no where NEAR the nutrients level of potting soil (for ex)


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## ttk86

DutchMuch said:


> LOL, where did you hear that from?
> ADA Amazonia has no where NEAR the nutrients level of potting soil (for ex)


For all high tech setup videos (MANY) i watched, not once I saw someone using soil. I thought soil would drive people with high tech tanks crazy since they couldn't move the plants for rescaping. Also, won't CO2 goes off the chart with both soil and injected CO2? Are plants still main filtration in high tech soil base tanks? Could you please point me to some tutorials or guides on high tech tanks with soil? thanks!


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## DutchMuch

ttk86 said:


> For all high tech setup videos (MANY) i watched, not once I saw someone using soil. I thought soil would drive people with high tech tanks crazy since they couldn't move the plants for rescaping. Also, won't CO2 goes off the chart with both soil and injected CO2? Are plants still main filtration in high tech soil base tanks? Could you please point me to some tutorials or guides on high tech tanks with soil? thanks!


In ALL tanks usually (except walstad) filtration is focused by a, filter, like a pressurized filter or HOB. Not plants. 
Plants are focused on by adding fertilizers to the water for their growth and health. 
I cant exactly answer your co2 question, as I have never had a dirted high tech myself (although am going to try it one day here) but I would imagine the Co2 in the dirt would eventually deplete, or you would lower the amount of Co2 you enter into the tank with a Co2 canister, etc. 
I cant point you in a certain direction to doing this.... BarrReport, Justin, burr, PIKEZ (especially) know more on this topic chemically than I do so those are my recommendations:
Justin
Burr
Pikez
Tom Barr
& Phishless @marylandguppy


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## ttk86

DutchMuch said:


> In ALL tanks usually (except walstad) filtration is focused by a, filter, like a pressurized filter or HOB. Not plants.
> Plants are focused on by adding fertilizers to the water for their growth and health.
> I cant exactly answer your co2 question, as I have never had a dirted high tech myself (although am going to try it one day here) but I would imagine the Co2 in the dirt would eventually deplete, or you would lower the amount of Co2 you enter into the tank with a Co2 canister, etc.
> I cant point you in a certain direction to doing this.... BarrReport, Justin, burr, PIKEZ (especially) know more on this topic chemically than I do so those are my recommendations:
> Justin
> Burr
> Pikez
> Tom Barr
> & Phishless @marylandguppy


I know Barr, and Justin but never heard of the other 2. Thank you!


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## DutchMuch

no problemo


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## Maryland Guppy

ttk86 said:


> I thought soil would drive people with high tech tanks crazy since they couldn't move the plants for rescaping.


Capped soil takes some skill in hi-tech.
One can't just rip up plants.
Careful removal or scissors deep in the substrate works.
Vacuum an area after you strip it.
But the growth is amazing!
Small areas at a time.

Re-scaping does suck for the most part, I bundle plants with weights.
After trimming and re-planting I'm good for about 6 weeks.
It turns into a therapy type thing thought.

One must be patient and have plants that exhibit good growth.


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## dwalstad

ttk86 said:


> For all high tech setup videos (MANY) i watched, not once I saw someone using soil. I thought soil would drive people with high tech tanks crazy since they couldn't move the plants for rescaping. Also, won't CO2 goes off the chart with both soil and injected CO2? Are plants still main filtration in high tech soil base tanks? Could you please point me to some tutorials or guides on high tech tanks with soil? thanks!


I would not use soil in a High-tech tank or an Aquascaped tank. And I doubt that you will find very many tutorials on using soil in a High-tech tank. When you mix methods, you run into all kinds of confusion and pitfalls and unnecessary duplication. You have described some of them in your post, but there's plenty more. The artificial injection of CO2 associated with High-tech tanks changes everything.

The High-tech people have devised fairly full-proof procedures for setting up successful planted tanks. I would choose one or the other method for a tank. If you want to play around, you can do a High-tech tank and then set up an NPT Shrimp bowl on the side.


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## Derbi

i mix and love it, every thing grows like crazy. my 40 has crazy lighting, co2 and miracle gro and i us iron one time a week i only do water change on that tank one time a month. i have never put a plant in it that did not grow like crazy. 

this was my test tank i started 2 years back now for my 120 that i am going to set up the same way with even more lighting


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## ttk86

For anyone who's interested. I bought both organic garden soil and raised bed soil to try. I skipped the potting soil since they added perlite. The rasied bed soil is very chunky and contain some random stuff so i wouldn't recommend it. The garden soil is better. I tried using it to setup 2 plant bowl and they are doing pretty well. Plants seem to love it.


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## dwalstad

Derbi said:


> i mix and love it, every thing grows like crazy. my 40 has crazy lighting, co2 and miracle gro and i us iron one time a week i only do water change on that tank one time a month. i have never put a plant in it that did not grow like crazy.
> 
> this was my test tank i started 2 years back now for my 120 that i am going to set up the same way with even more lighting


Well, this is the first person that's come forth with a description of combining methods and getting good results. Good for you! I'll keep your post in mind next time I get on the band wagon. Actually, there's no reason why a soil like Miracle Gro wouldn't do well in a tank with CO2. Just don't mix the Miracle Gro soil (or any other organic soil;potting soil) with an iron-rich laterite clay like I did. The mix leached tons of iron into the soil water killing plants. (Dosing small amounts of iron fertilizer into the water is a totally different thing.)

It would be nice to see a picture of your tank.


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## Skizhx

I've done soils in high-tech tanks a few times.

Here's a journal I tried to start with my first one (honestly I'm too lazy to take photos and bother keeping journals properly):

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/98482-90gal-dirt-co2-lot-patience.html

That tank did develop some trace deficiencies in the downoi, and took a bit of experimenting but eventually ran smoothly with water column dosing. Unfortunately, I had to take it down less than a year later (ended up moving). I've since stopped using redart for anything. Works fine in low-tech (that is to say - never caused any problems or made much difference in low-tech), but it's too messy to setup/take down the tank when there's a sludge-layer at the bottom that dries like a rock. Not worth it at all.

I have a 30 that I've just set up with soil and a fluorite cap, again running high light and CO2. It's still less than a week old so plants are busy getting establishing. Other than alternanthera freaking out about being submerged, nothing unusual going on.

There's another member, I think it's Wet, who also uses soil in their tanks.


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## DutchMuch

Wish I setup my 65 dutch with soil... But traditionally, dutch tanks must have inert substrate and must be dosed with liquid or dry fertz into the water column... o whale.


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## Skizhx

DutchMuch said:


> Wish I setup my 65 dutch with soil... But traditionally, dutch tanks must have inert soil and must be dosed with liquid or dry fertz into the water column... o whale.


"Tradition" is the battle-cry of the noninnovative 

Sounds like an excuse to start another tank!


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## DutchMuch

Skizhx said:


> "Tradition" is the battle-cry of the noninnovative
> 
> Sounds like an excuse to start another tank!


lol! :decision:

I do like the traditional dutch method however though so far. I have never seen someone actually do it on a forum and document it. Very difficult but rewarding. 
I'm doing the "what plant works and what doesn't" method and whatever doesn't grow gets tossed or donated in a RAOK. I have done "updated" hybrid dutch's before and they are much easier. 
But now I'm having in the 65 a green water issue. I saw you had this issue before as well, any good NON UV resolutions to this phenomenon? I have tried raising the Co2 a bunch to the point where my glass diffuser almost exploded, (bought an inline coming on Monday) and I'm dosing with Thrive+ but this algae doesn't feed off of nutrients but yet it feeds off of light it seems. 
Its a real pain in the butt...!


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## Skizhx

Nope. I've only had greenwater once, and UV cleared it right up...

Ironically, I couldn't get greenwater to grow for the life of me when I was keeping daphnia.


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## DutchMuch

haha! blast the light and your good!


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## Skizhx

Hmmmmm... When I was trying to grow it I gave it a pinch of miracle gro organic fertilizer and set carboys out by a large Eastern window. They would have received some direct sunlight in the mornings. Maybe that's what killed it?


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## DutchMuch

honestly idek anymore.. lel


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