# New Growth a little pale



## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

I think I may not be dosing enough trace but I am not sure. I have a 37 gallon with 3.6wpg, 30+ppm co2, eco complete substrate (2+years old). I have been dosing to 5ppm nitrates (trying to keep them on the low side to get my reds redder), 1.5-2.0 ppm Phosphates (test kits prove both of these are being dosed properly). I am dosing to 20ppm K, but I wonder if I am adding enough traces. I have been adding 10 mls of Seachem Flourish 3x a week and 1ml of seachem flourish Iron 3x a week, but my new growth is still a little on the pale side. Am I dosing enough Traces and Iron?? My GH is 7 and I add small amounts of cacl2 and mgso4 at water changes, just in case. Am I missing something??


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## Simpte 27 (Jul 16, 2004)

What plants are growing in pale? I have a few that start pale the gain color as they mature.


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*pale*

I know what you are saying about growth taking time to get color as it matures. But my wisteria seems to come in a bit more yellow then I think it should, and my petit nana's new leaves are defintely lighter then the ones it had when I put them in the tank. Plus my anubia barteri isnt quite as dark as some I have seen and my glosso could be greener as well (MY bacopa is plenty green though). I was dosing 3ml of flourish iron 5x a week, but when I check the fertilator I saw that 1ml = .07ppm. So I was adding over 2ppm 5x a week in flourish iron, + the iron that is in the 30ml of Flourish Regular that I add weekly. I assumed this was too much so I dropped it to 1ml 3x a week of Flourish-Iron and kept it at 30ml weekly of Flourish. I thought maybe I had an iron excess or something. I noticed sometimes my tank is a shade hazy/milky but this doesnt coincide with any fertilizer dosing (or not htat I notice). I do dose macros and micros on the same day, but I doubt that is it. I dont think its bacteria related (the haze) because I have a 2.5 year old substrate and a biowheel on my emperor 280 filter (so I am assuming I have enough good Bacteria around). I read somewhere that you want 1ml of trace per gallon weekly so I thought maybe I was dosing that a bit low. Any thoughts??


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## Simpte 27 (Jul 16, 2004)

I would lead towards ca or mg defficiency before trace.


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## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

Just an FYI- ADA "ECA" deals with this problem specifically. 

ECA (Efficient Complex Acid) contains natural organic acid. Organic acid enhances bacterial activity and the growth of the plants, and therefore improves the overall condition of the aquarium. The extra iron in ECA helps plants in the formation of essential pigments for photosynthesis such as chlorophyll. It prevents such problems as whitening of new buds and waning of leaf color. It also serves to stimulate the formation of new buds by activating various enzymes relevant to the metabolism of aquatic plants.


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*iron*

Couldnt I just add more of the flourish iron that I have if the system requires more iron? That aside, Do you use that ECA in your aquariums Jeff? I have seen your work and its impressive to say the least. I just feel like my plants arent quite getting there when I see some of the other planted tanks out there. I have only been dosing with an adapted EI approach (I do test tho) for about 2 months, and the plants have shown a steady improvement but not quite the color I want. Maybe I need to be more patient. Where can I purchase ADA ECA? Is it a weekly additive?? Thanks for the replies, much appreciated

-mike


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*mg or ca*

my GH is 7 and I add 4 grams of cacl2 an 2 grams of Mgso4 weekly....is this sufficient?



Simpte 27 said:


> I would lead towards ca or mg defficiency before trace.


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## Error (Apr 16, 2004)

jsenske said:


> Just an FYI- ADA "ECA" deals with this problem specifically.
> 
> ECA (Efficient Complex Acid) contains natural organic acid. Organic acid enhances bacterial activity and the growth of the plants, and therefore improves the overall condition of the aquarium. The extra iron in ECA helps plants in the formation of essential pigments for photosynthesis such as chlorophyll. It prevents such problems as whitening of new buds and waning of leaf color. It also serves to stimulate the formation of new buds by activating various enzymes relevant to the metabolism of aquatic plants.


This sounds a little fishy to me. What kind of organic acids are we talking here? Tannins? I don't buy it.


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## jsenske (Mar 15, 2004)

ECA is a weekly additive- after water changes- but not necessary for every layout. It can also be used just when you are having problems with color-loss and need a quick boost. Then you would use it daily and stop once you got good color/growth back where you want it. I do use it weekly in some tanks, have used it temporarily in some tanks for remedy purposes, and have tanks also that don't seem to have any need for it. It is not a requisite of the ADA dosing approach- more a special application item. Just adding more Flourish iron may very well get you there also. I just wanted to let you know there is something in the ADA line that deals specifically with this problem which can be more slightly more pronounced after a major trimming. ADA is really into nursing the plants back quickly after trimmings as that is a prime time for issues- many of which we all and Amano as well have encountered. You can order through www.aquariumdesigngroup.com click on ShopADG. I have been very impressed with both ECA and GREEN GAIN for dealing with these specific issues. A 50ml bottle would last quite a while in the average tank as it is either something you keep on hand for when you need it or use a small dose (1 drop per 10 liters) weekly. Amano does not use these on every tank every week unless the particular layout calls for it- again, more of an as-needed item/basis. It works regardless of whether you believe it does or not which is pretty cool IMO.


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

mlfishman said:


> I have been dosing to 5ppm nitrates (trying to keep them on the low side to get my reds redder), 1.5-2.0 ppm Phosphates (test kits prove both of these are being dosed properly). Am I missing something??


mlfishman, you might be missing NO3. At 3.6 wpg the uptake rate as the plants mature might be higher than you think. There is no way wisteria and annubias should be yellowing, these are normally the two of the most bulletproof weeds. If I were you I would try the simple stuff first like forgetting about trying to get redder reds and doubling the nitrogen dosage to get greener greens. Besides, you might be able to get redder by also dosing more PO4. Oh, and test kits have been known to lie...

It's been reported that simultaneously dosing Fe and PO4 can result in the two precipitating out of solution in a haze. You might try to separate the addition of these by a few hours.

It's highly unlikely that with a gH of 7 that your deficient in the Mg/Ca, plus you're adding more of each so it seems that you can reasonably rule these out. Generally, the usual suspects for yellowing are deficient N, P or Fe. I would add more of each for three weeks first before trying other things.

Cheers,


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## Navarro (Feb 12, 2004)

I am by no means an expert in fertilization nor do I care much about learning more than what I need. I like simple things and just like you, once I was facing a similar problem in a particular tank and way before Jeff Senske start selling ADA knew and used ECA on the regular basis when the plants showed this symptoms along with stunt growth after trimming the plants. Did it work YES do I use it all the time or every week NO I only added once every 10 days or after trimming my stem plants and use what I have available to fertilize all my 17 planted aquariums. 
I don't think Mr. Senske is asking you to believe or to buy the product he is giving you an option as well as the other gentlemen, therefore I don't see anything fishy about it.
Best regards,
Navarro


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Error said:


> ... What kind of organic acids are we talking here? Tannins? I don't buy it.


I assume that ECA has Humic acids. Here's a Google search on them.

--Nikolay


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*thanks*

thanks for all the responses, they were much appreciated. I am going to give the ECA a try, it def cant hurt. I also tested my nitrates the other day, right before adding nitrates again, and it tested 0-2ppm, so I have since upped my dosing of KNO3. I also tested my tap water and found that my tap water has 2ppm pf phosphate in it. I also tested my spring water as a control to make sure it wasnt the test kit, and that came back 0, so it seems its accurate. I am still adding a small amount of phosphate on top of that.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

jsenske said:


> Just an FYI- ADA "ECA" deals with this problem specifically.
> 
> ECA (Efficient Complex Acid) contains natural organic acid. Organic acid enhances bacterial activity and the growth of the plants, and therefore improves the overall condition of the aquarium. The extra iron in ECA helps plants in the formation of essential pigments for photosynthesis such as chlorophyll. It prevents such problems as whitening of new buds and waning of leaf color. It also serves to stimulate the formation of new buds by activating various enzymes relevant to the metabolism of aquatic plants.


There is no iron whatsoever in Chlorophyll or the red pigments, beta carotenes/anthocyanins/Xanophylls.

The general health of the plant and it's use for other secondary reactions, enzyme meditated, will require Fe, but this is not a lack of Fe in this case given what the poster has stated.

He specifically stated he was trying to limit NO3, pale color and the other indicators sounds more like the poster is bottoming out the NO3, and has little to do with Fe.

Add more KNO3 and I think after a week or two things will turn around.
If a low stable level of NO3 is desired, then you can reduce the lighting, thus the uptake rate(up to a point~ roughly 2w gal).

Ca/Mg can be accounted for by adding SeaChem EQ, traces are already dosed fairly high.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

mlfishman said:


> thanks for all the responses, they were much appreciated. I am going to give the ECA a try, it def cant hurt. I also tested my nitrates the other day, right before adding nitrates again, and it tested 0-2ppm, so I have since upped my dosing of KNO3. I also tested my tap water and found that my tap water has 2ppm pf phosphate in it. I also tested my spring water as a control to make sure it wasnt the test kit, and that came back 0, so it seems its accurate. I am still adding a small amount of phosphate on top of that.


I just read this after I posted, and? ............there you go.
You can add PO4 at mid week once, but you need to add more KNO3, not ECA. You are welcomed to try it or both.

But the issue for your tank is a lack NO3, not a lack of ECA.

Address the real issue.

You addressed the other nutrient levels etc.
Many folks bottom their NO3 out.

They assume that there is NO3 when in fact it is gone or at extremely low levels.

Reasons for this are:
Poor testing, poor test kits, assuming the rate you measured one week is the same the following week when estimating the dosing, getting too close to 0 without dosing frequently, feeding changes for the fish load, etc.

Main issue is the resolution/accuracy of many NO3 test kits, especially at the 0-5ppm range.

I use cadium reduction, I get 0.1ppm resolution of NO3 over a wide range(0-100ppm).

There are also easier indicator plants such as Mic umbrosum which grows well at decent NO3 and gets ratty and small at low NO3 levels.

This plant was shown to have response to NO3 level changes about 7-8 years ago now.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mlfishman (Apr 4, 2005)

*Thanks Tom*

Thanks Tom. Your posts on this forum have solved many an issue for me and its much appreciated. I end up having to hold off on the ECA due to my budget but I have upped my dosing on KNO3 and it appears to be helping. I had also noticed that when I Wasnt dosing enough I was getting leggy growth. I am not sure if this is another indicator of low Nitrates, but it def wasnt a light issue. I have since pruned off all leggy growth, and things seem to be coming together a bit more. I am still getting some green algae on my anubias and some on the glass and I have heard you mention these issues before. I am currently making sure that I remove all green spot algae from the tank as I wipe it and it apears to be getting a bit better but still is present. I have heard you say that this is due ot low phosphates, Im fairly sure I have 2ppm of phosphates at the tap, so I am afraid to add much more then my .2 grams @ water change time. Any thoughts?


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