# New here/Algae Help



## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

*Algae, I think*

Hello all. I am new to the forum but not to the hobby. I am having a bit of trouble with algae on my s. repens and on my heater parts. It appears to be mostly on lower leaves. I do plan on cutting them down halfway and replanting for a more lush fuller appearance.
Tank info as follows: 20L, AC30, small internal zoo-med filter to create flow underwater and disperse co2, DIY Co2 (2-2l bottles), dose macro/micro dry ferts daily, dose 2ml glut daily, 2-23watt CFL 3/4 inches above water, consistent 8 hour photo period, 50% weekly water change, ph. 7.4, ammo & trites 0, trates 20, Gh/Kh 7 & 8, phosphates 2, floramax substrate, & Osmocote Plus root tabs. Any suggestions what it is and how to rid it because once i cut my repens all this is exposed to the human eye and will be ugly. Thanks in advance. Pictures below.

Current Fauna:
3 Otos, GBR pair, & 6 Albino corydoras.

This is how they look at a glance:









This is eye-soaring:


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## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

Does anyone have a slight guess at it?


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## Darkcobra (Nov 23, 2009)

Hello and welcome! I see:

GSA: Green spot algae. Tends to be caused by excess light, low phosphates, or a combo of both. Even though your phosphate level is generally considered adequate, individual tank needs can vary widely, so don't be afraid to bring it up to 4ppm and see if it decreases or stops GSA growth. If that fails to have an effect, try swapping in some lower wattage spiral CFLs. If you feel the need to remove what is already there other than by trimming, the best technique I've found is Algaefix (or equivalent), with a modified dosing scheme I developed that increases safety. For your 20L (5G) tank, dose 1/12th of a mL daily. You may have to create a dilute solution to measure this small an amount! Over a couple of weeks, the GSA will slowly disappear.

Staghorn: The gray branchy stuff. For some, it's caused by low CO2/flow. For me, it's caused by the exact opposite. It's tricky that way, just like its cousin BBA, so you'll have to experiment to see which works for you. But either way, it's exacerbated by high light. I don't see mention of a drop checker, this is recommended to get a decent estimate of your CO2 levels. Staghorn can sometimes show extraordinary resistance to chemical treatments. Yours is currently surviving a 4X Excel overdose, for example. Try adding in some H2O2 spot treatments. If it shrugs that off too, this will work, but consider it a weapon of last resort.

Algicidal treatments are controversial. I develop and include them, the decision whether to go that route I leave to your discretion. But I never recommend relying on them long term. If you use them, do so only as a temporary means of reversing algae, then use the time gained to find better means of long term control.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

GSA - I am not too concern about them. Try to reduce the light and increase the CO2 (if you inject CO2) may help.

Staghorn algae is annoying and ugly. If you tank is large enough for some juvenile Siamese algae eaters, they may consume the algae in a matter of time. However, you got to make sure that you are not getting wrong species of fish such as flying fox which is aggressive and does not eat algae. Chinese algae eater is useless too - too aggressive. Adult Siamese algae eater will not help either as they prefer fish food. Alternatively, if you do not have sensitive plants such as Vallisneria, you may try to shoot the leaves with a syringe using Seachem Excel after turning off the filter. Some of the leaves may die off if too much Excel is shot on them. Also try cleaning your filter, staghorn and BBA seem to be more likely to attack when the filter is dirty.


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## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

Darkcobra said:


> Hello and welcome! I see:
> 
> GSA: Green spot algae. Tends to be caused by excess light, low phosphates, or a combo of both. Even though your phosphate level is generally considered adequate, individual tank needs can vary widely, so don't be afraid to bring it up to 4ppm and see if it decreases or stops GSA growth. If that fails to have an effect, try swapping in some lower wattage spiral CFLs. If you feel the need to remove what is already there other than by trimming, the best technique I've found is Algaefix (or equivalent), with a modified dosing scheme I developed that increases safety. For your 20L (5G) tank, dose 1/12th of a mL daily. You may have to create a dilute solution to measure this small an amount! Over a couple of weeks, the GSA will slowly disappear.
> 
> ...


Originally, I was adding 5ml of phosphates and have been adding 7ml since pwc this past Friday so I will test again to see where that has me and will post where I am this Friday.

I recently found out that using an airstone with combination of low water level was gassing off most of my DIY co2...ha! once I removed the airstone, topped the water upto the outflow..wow...my drop checker turned yellow in a matter of 24 hours...

I never leave lights on more than 8 hours, never...BUT...I had the plants growing under 13 watt cfl for long time and recently upped to 23 watt..its been almost 1 month, I think...unsure here

I have read I can do 3ml peroxide per gallon syringe spot treatment...I guess i will attempt that first before going to other chemical measures

Your absolutely right, I do not want to rely on chemicals...I want a 98-99% algae free tank the right way....any other suggestions or thoughts are truly welcomed...


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## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

totziens said:


> GSA - I am not too concern about them. Try to reduce the light and increase the CO2 (if you inject CO2) may help.
> 
> Staghorn algae is annoying and ugly. If you tank is large enough for some juvenile Siamese algae eaters, they may consume the algae in a matter of time. However, you got to make sure that you are not getting wrong species of fish such as flying fox which is aggressive and does not eat algae. Chinese algae eater is useless too - too aggressive. Adult Siamese algae eater will not help either as they prefer fish food. Alternatively, if you do not have sensitive plants such as Vallisneria, you may try to shoot the leaves with a syringe using Seachem Excel after turning off the filter. Some of the leaves may die off if too much Excel is shot on them. Also try cleaning your filter, staghorn and BBA seem to be more likely to attack when the filter is dirty.


I do 50% pwc weekly and I change the mechanical then. I take a toothbrush to the intake piping to get build up out. I rinse bb ceramic in old tank water 1x a month BUT mostly when I see gunk build up on it.

I don't want to add inhabitants just to cure an issue "especially" since I wouldn't want them afterwards...so I really want to find out the underlying issue that is "causing" it.

I may try the peroxide as a quick appearance solution but I really want to get to the bottom of it...any suggestions?


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## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

Okay, today I trimmed the repens. Also, I turned all equipment that cause flow off, dosed 2ml per gallon, let it sit for 20 minutes, then turned all equipment back on. I will do it again tomorrow if I don't see any color change since i have read this algae can be tough....any other thoughts


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## Darkcobra (Nov 23, 2009)

Staghorn can be killed without changing color. In which case it will take about three days before it starts to decompose and you'll know it worked. You can still do a follow-up treatment tomorrow if you like.

GSA typically won't be visibly affected either. Being non-fibrous and dense, the H2O2 spot treatment reaches and kills only a very thin outer layer. Takes many treatments to slowly shrink it, I have succeeded in removing this way, but it's a pain and I rarely bother. I agree with [totziens] that the staghorn is more worrisome.

Sounds like you have a good grasp on the situation overall. Now it's mostly a game of wait and see. Treat to remove algae, wait to see if it worked. If so, wait to see if regrowth occurs. If so, retreat and alter a parameter, wait to see if regrowth rate is altered. Repeat as necessary. Patience is a necessity. 

The real role of treatments here is merely to keep the algae from becoming too firmly entrenched or outgrowing the plants in the meantime. Both plants and algae alter the environment in their favor, in ways barely understood. On the flip side of that, I think I saw some empty space in your tank. Packing that with some fast growing plants can help tip the balance in plants' favor, as a temporary measure while the S. repens fills in and fully adapts to recent changes.


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## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

Bump....I did the peroxide and trimmed.....got a nerite for the GSA but the other algae is being stubborn...help please I don't want to rip it all out if I don't have to


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## Darkcobra (Nov 23, 2009)

Ok, regarding the peroxide.



Aqualady said:


> Also, I turned all equipment that cause flow off, dosed 2ml per gallon, let it sit for 20 minutes, then turned all equipment back on.


Was this applied as a spot treatment, where you squirted the peroxide directly onto the staghorn with a syringe or equivalent?

*If not*, try applying it as a spot treatment before trying anything else. With all flow shut off for 20 minutes of course. Lights are irrelevant, you can leave them on.

*If so* and it failed, your staghorn is the highly chemical resistant variety. By pouring the peroxide to the water, in combination with 4X daily Excel overdosing (if you're still doing that), you did something very much like my One-Two Punch procedure I linked earlier. Which _will_ take out resistant staghorn, I developed it especially for that. However, you did one critical thing differently. When peroxide is poured into tank water (rather than used as a spot treatment), it needs heavy water flow to work - the more the better. This means running powerheads without filters, and/or running filters with media removed. I can't stress this enough, it makes a _huge_ difference, and you should read that link I posted for full details on the procedure.

If your staghorn is exactly like mine - chemical resistant and behaves similarly in all respects - you'll find you can slow and stop its growth by reducing some combination of light, CO2, and flow. Yes, I really said reducing CO2 and flow. It's counterintuitive, but it's what I found worked after months of experimentation with it. It does _not_ respond to any other nutrient alterations at all, I tried everything except reducing them to the point where plant growth was limited.


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## Aqualady (Jan 23, 2014)

Darkcobra said:


> Ok, regarding the peroxide.
> 
> Was this applied as a spot treatment, where you squirted the peroxide directly onto the staghorn with a syringe or equivalent?
> 
> ...


Yes, I did it with syringe. If I poured it in, would I need to remove all inhabitants, including snail?


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## Darkcobra (Nov 23, 2009)

Aqualady said:


> Yes, I did it with syringe. If I poured it in, would I need to remove all inhabitants, including snail?


Every person has different results with peroxide.

For example, as a general recommendation, I say add 2 tbsp. 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10G (of actual water volume or close to it, not tank size). That is a compromise between safety and effectiveness. A few people will still lose a few fish or snails at that dosage. Many can do it over and over without losses. And my tanks/fish/snails consistently tolerate double that dose without any losses. You never really know what will happen until you try it.

So if you can remove livestock until you've performed the water change to remove most of the peroxide, then that is preferred. Unless you are willing to experiment, and accept any losses that may occur.

While I've covered the essentials here for you, if you haven't yet read my thread on it, here it is:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684

Note that the first few reports from people who volunteered to test it were often bad, as I originally recommended the higher dosage that worked for me. After adjusting the dosage downwards, and as folks got more familiar with the technique, results improved.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hey Aqualady, unfortunately the cause of each type of algae is not known with certainty. Figuring out exactly what triggers each species to bloom is a mystery that is unlikely to be solved anytime soon for most types of algae.

That said, there are certainly things you can do to reduce algae's presence. I'm surprised that you are having trouble getting rid of staghorn. I've always found that it is one of the easiest algae species to get rid of. I used to see it when my lighting was fairly low, when I used DIY yeast CO2, and when plants weren't growing very quickly. When I dosed EI, had pressurized CO2, and plants were growing fast staghorn died off and I've never seen it grow back. It is also fairly rare, over the last 10+ years I've only had it once or twice and have not seen it in any of the dozens of tanks/setups/places I've kept tanks, it certainly isn't robust like clado or BBA. 

I feel that the best thing you can do for your tank is to buy pressurized CO2. I suspect that DIY CO2 and lower light levels are probably the most relevant factors for you. DIY CO2 puts out other gasses and compounds that yeast makes as it ferments. I suspect that some of these promote staghorn growth.

Green spot algae seems to get better over time as the tank matures but it can take a while. Possibly higher PO4 levels help reduce it. Peroxide definitely works for stubborn spots, but you'll need multiple applications.

Spot treating areas with peroxide and flourish excel are good ideas. Chemical control can be effective in killing off algae and stopping it from entering a full bloom. I've found that once you kill off nuisance algae it doesn't usually grow back for several months. So you don't always need to maintain the tank with chemicals. They can actually solve some algae issues outright.


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## Darkcobra (Nov 23, 2009)

Zapins said:


> I've always found that it is one of the easiest algae species to get rid of. I used to see it when my lighting was fairly low, when I used DIY yeast CO2, and when plants weren't growing very quickly.


Quite the opposite here. I don't see it in low light tanks, except for one that was receiving direct sunlight from a window for an hour a day. In medium light tanks, it appears sometimes if CO2 is high and in areas of high flow. In high light tanks, it appears readily unless CO2 and/or flow are limited. It's in all my tanks, has been ever since I received a plant with it (never saw it before that), and will reappear instantly the moment I provide conditions suitable for it. It doesn't care if CO2 is from yeast or pressurized, or how stable it is. And then there's our differing results with chemical resistance, Excel/H2O2 spot treatments have almost no effect, any Excel water column overdose is ineffective.

Definitely not easy to get rid of. Behaving so differently from what most people typically report, I even sent some off for microscopic identification. It was confirmed to be staghorn.

But I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact we can both be right if there's more than one variety of staghorn, indistinguishable by visual inspection alone, and I believe that's the case.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

There certainly could be many varieties of staghorn. This is probably part of what makes figuring out algae so difficult. What may look like the same species of staghorn or spot algae etc. could actually be a completely different species when you get it under the microscope. We could all be battling different species that have different triggers and behaviors which leads to the plethora of different cure strategies we have in the hobby. 

Everyone has a different experience and different advice, like your experience and mine. This is why I prefer the subject of plant deficiencies - because you can almost always tell with certainty what is wrong based on the symptoms. 

When it comes to algae battles and algae advice, I've often found that making the plants grow faster and healthier seems to get rid of most algae species for whatever reason. So my algae advice tends to center around that theme. More maintenance and manual removal/chemicals also tend to help turn the battle.


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