# Is it really that complex ?



## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

Hello,

I'm quite a beginner in planted tanks, I use ready-made fertilizers (JBL Ferropol for now) and after some reading from this cool site, I'm asking myself :

Do I really need to get into this complex stuff of dosing nitrates, potassium, KNO3, K2SNO4, P3N2-007 and so on... or is it possible to have a nice planted tank with a lot of healthy plants with only ready-made liquid fertilizers... ?

Thanks


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

You can have a very nice planted tank with commercial fertilizers, it just requires deep pockets! The commercial stuff gets expensive quickly in high light, CO2 injected tanks, especially larger tanks.

One way around the expense is to set up a low light, non-CO2 tank. They can usually get by on fish wastes and maybe some supplemental commercial fertilizers. The slower growth of these tanks will not need the same level of fertilization as "high tech" tanks.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi Mellonman

Some people eat junk food, others go to French restaurants. Some people drive Huyndai others BMW. 
Is it necessary? No. Why do we do it? Because we enjoy it. More complex it gets more exciting it is. It’s a hobby. 

Many aquatic plants can be grown beautifully in a simple way as well. If it works for you don’t change it. 

Welcome to Aquatic Plant Central
Edward


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

Edward said:


> More complex it gets more exciting it is. It's a hobby.


Maybe you should change hobbies and try nuclear physics or cardio-thoracic surgery, it's more complex than aquatic gardening 

I like to set up and keep a nice planted tank, but I don't like chemistry...

For what concerns "deep pockets", fertilizers for aquatic plants are indeed quite expensive :shock: 
This is why many aquarists in France use a well-known mix of fertilizers made for normal ground plants (because they are a lot less expensive)... 
Is there something like this in other countries ?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

JBL Ferropol is an iron supplement and does not insure that your macros are adequate.

If I don't add NO3 and PO4, they become zero and the plants suffer. This is of course if you have lighting at more than around 1.5wpg (0.4w per liter) and add CO2. If this is the case, the plants will use up all of the NO3 and PO4 and then start starving.

So one has to add Nitrogen and Phosphorous and other elements. You can do this using DIY chemicals (KNO3, KH2PO4, etc) or you can use a commercial product. To date, no European company makes a nitrogen or phosphorous aquatic plant supplement. Seachem has these (and I think Kent does as well).

As for iron and trace elements, I've tried most of the standard European ones (JBL Ferropol, Dupla, Dennerle, Tetra, etc) and now either use Seachem's Flourish or Tropica's TMG. They work the best for me and actually tell you what's in the bottle! (Tropica is the only European company that gives you the ingredients; all the others act like they have a world shaking trade secret  ).


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## Milan (Jul 6, 2005)

Laith said:


> To date, no European company makes a nitrogen or phosphorous aquatic plant supplement ...


I believe they can find Nutrafin PlantGRO NPK on their market.

Anyhow, if you wish to use commercial stuff, you have pay about 10 times more then using the dry ferts. Not to mention the 0 flexibility. It has no comparison to nuclear physics, or driving an expensive car. I would rather refer to use of commercial ferts as to calling a plumber to replace a washer on your tap.
Furthermore, some people want to learn and understand background of their hobby, and some would settle for a fish screensaver instead, ... or some want to be somewhere in the middle ...


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Nutrafin is a Hagen product. Hagen is a Canadian company, not European.

But yes, just like Seachem and TMG, it can be found in Europe.


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## Milan (Jul 6, 2005)

Laith said:


> Nutrafin is a Hagen product. Hagen is a Canadian company, not European.
> 
> But yes, just like Seachem and TMG, it can be found in Europe.


I realize that, but being familiar with their market, Nutrafin was mentioned simply because it's the only NPK one to find in almost every European country, as opposed to Seachem, which is rather rarity over there (UK and perhaps Germany ..). Most of their commercial stuff is K+TE (Sera, Tetra, Tropica, ADA, ...)


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Mellonman said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm quite a beginner in planted tanks, I use ready-made fertilizers (JBL Ferropol for now) and after some reading from this cool site, I'm asking myself :
> 
> ...


Given 
KNO3 (NO3 and K part)
KH2PO4 (PO4 part)
GH- can be fine with your tap if 3-5 degrees or higher, you may need a little Mg (or Ca in rarer cases if the Gh is very low)
Trace elements.

You only add basically 3-4 things.
It does not matter what the salts are called.
All that matters to a farmer is to add enough of each to support good growth.

If I label something Tropica Master Grow, it's no different than calling it trace elements.

KNO3 cost about 2-3$ per year for a 55 gal tank.
KH2PO4 even less.
MgSO4, epsom salt is cheap and you can buy it at any drug/grocery store to add Mg for about 0.25$ a year or less.

I'll add 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2x a week to an 80 liter tank with 55w of light
I'll add a pinch(about 1/2 a rice grain worth) of K2PO4 2x a week also
I'll add traces 5mls 2-3x a week
I'll add maybe(depends on your tap water) some MgSO4 or general GH builder(Eg SeaChem Equilibrium or your own CaSO4/MgSO4/K2SO4 mix).

Point is, this is simple to do and you do not need to know anything other than which each of the ferts are.

Once you do this, it becomes very simple.
Since chemistry is an issue, doing 50% weekly water changes will prevent anything from increasing too much and dosing 2-3x a week will prevent anything from running out.

So there, virtually no chemistry needed and saved you perhaps several 100 euro's in fert cost per year depending on tank size.

Most hydroponic stores will sell the KNO3, KH2PO4 also.
Do not use things with NH4 or Urea in them.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## Mellonman (Nov 2, 2005)

Thank you for these explanations Tom 



plantbrain said:


> I'll add 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2x a week to an 80 liter tank with 55w of light
> I'll add a pinch(about 1/2 a rice grain worth) of K2PO4 2x a week also
> I'll add traces 5mls 2-3x a week
> I'll add maybe(depends on your tap water) some MgSO4 or general GH builder(Eg SeaChem Equilibrium or your own CaSO4/MgSO4/K2SO4 mix).


And nothing else ? (no Fe for instance ?).

And how do you know (except from your experience) that your tank needs these quantities of each ?

If I finally want to go deeper into this "complex stuff" of dosing each element, is there somewhere (on APC or somewhere else) where I can get the basic lessons ?


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

I'm not *that* Tom, but you might try this:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php

TW


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Mellonman said:


> ...
> And nothing else ? (no Fe for instance ?).
> 
> ...


The traces he mentions include Fe.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Mellonman said:


> And nothing else ? (no Fe for instance ?).
> And how do you know (except from your experience) that your tank needs these quantities of each ?
> 
> If I finally want to go deeper into this "complex stuff" of dosing each element, is there somewhere (on APC or somewhere else) where I can get the basic lessons ?


As mentioned Traces are the TMG, Flourish, etc, they have all the traces including Fe, hey, I thought you said you did not want to get all into that complex chem stuff?

I know because I've had several 75 over the years with a number of different lighting systems.
I also measured the rates of removal on a very high light system(5.5 w/gal on PC lighting at 18" depth so the uptake rates would be maximizied and anything less would work fine as far a nutrient supply to the plants.
Anything from 1-6w/gal will have enough nutrients.

I also know what range of nutrients that this dosing routine will produce if you do the weekly water changes.

As you add more light=> this drives more CO2 uptake=> that depelets the CO2 in the water, so we add CO2 gas.

That depelets the NO3 produced by the fish etc and so we need to add more inorganic NO3, adding more fish adds too much NH4 which causes algae, that why we cannot do that with CO2 enriched tanks.

So adding KNO3, drives more K+ uptake but adding KNO3, the K part adds more than enough for the plants, so this drives => more PO4 uptake.

So we add KH2PO4.

This all drives the Trace element uptake also.

We can toss the Ca, SO4, and Mg in there also, Ca and SO4 limitation is very rare, Mg can happen some in very low GH's and with low Mg.
These 1-3 can be dosed once a week without issue.

Adding excess nutrients allows your plants to have access without being limited.

Why put your plants on a diet?
Some like to think that way, most want them to be healthy and grow, limiting nutrients does not do that.

Non limiting and excess nutrient are the same thing BTW.
The ranges that are effective and do not cause issues for folks are quite wide ranging if the CO2 is in good shape.
This routine provide enough nutrients for about 3.5 w/gal of light, you can simply add more nutrients if you add more light, but you'd not need that much more.

This is also dirt cheap, simple and produces excellent results.

If you want to know more:
www.BarrReport.com and look under the public archives under estimative index.

There are some graph models that show the build up with no uptake, with 75%, 50% and 25% uptake of the nutrients. So you can see what range you will hit even without a test kit.

You can still use test kits, but make sure to calibrate them with standard solutions before trusting the readings or changing a routine.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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