# A little confused over leaf moulds



## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I have read a lot of web pages and postings here mentioning the use of "fagus soil" or beech leaf mould. I have searched high and low for a source of such here in the U.S. Where can one get this?

Are there viable substitutes? What about native leaves such as oaks? I have some ketapang leaves from Thailand that I had bought at the time for use in betta tanks, could they be used?

Also, what does "mould" mean exactly? Just shredded leaves? Or are they composted(?) in a way?

Thank you.


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Welcome aboard. I'm from southern Chester county myself.

We've been collecting it from the woods. It's basically composted beech leaves that are 3 or more years old. The way they collected fagus soil at the ECS meeting this year was to look for a beech grove and then walk around it feeling for spongy or springy areas like you were walking on a matress. Then scrape away the layers. You will be able to tell the age of the material by it's condition. Last years looks pretty much like the leaves have just been through the mower. 2-year old is getting darker with pieces varying from about pinky nail size to ratty looking leaves pretty much still intact. 3-year old is almost black and pretty uniform in size with even fewer pieces of large material. It looks more like soil than leaves. This is what you're looking for. Older than this is almost soil. I wouldn't get too concerned about the 2-year versus the 3-year material. Jan threw most of his into a rubbermaid container of rainwater to let it do its thing. He just fishes out a handful to plant into or to "fertilize" his plants.

Some of us are also trying oak leaves, different leaf combinations, and soil mixes like ADA/peat/Flourite mixes. There have been more posts about the soil mixes than the leaf mould mixes.

Cheers.
Jim


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## Khamul1of9 (Oct 25, 2005)

Nice to see you over here also Jim (Orchid Board)
Are you supposed to sterilize the leaf mold before use?
Thanks.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

That sounds great!

Now, where/how the heck do I find a stand of beech trees? (Aye, there's the rub...)


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Nice to see you over here also Jim (Orchid Board)
> Are you supposed to sterilize the leaf mold before use?
> Thanks.


I don't. I had a bit of a mould outbreak in a couple of my containers (I'm using chinese quart soup containers) so I asked Jan B. and he stated the leaf mould I was using was still a bit fresh and I should just give the container a little more air. So I just slid the lids back a little bit more. Problem solved.

Cheers.
Jim


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't think it has to be beech leaf mold. Go into the woods and collect some topsoil and fallen leaves. Break up or chop up the dried fallen leaves and mix them with the top soil and put the mix into a loosely covered container, such as a shoe box or sweater box and keep moist for about two weeks and you should have a good compost for growing crypts. During the two weeks easily decomposable substances will be decomposed, leaving behind the resistant substances that only slowly decompose. 

Another substrate that Chris Newell uses with great success is a mix of partially decayed leaves and black mud from the edge of a pond (pond goop). Chris has grown some fantastic crypts in that kind of substrate. 

kirana1 uses normal soil mixed with goat feces, and he seems to be able to grow a large variety of crypts very well.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm sans goats and beech tree groves, but you have given me some great ideas to start with. I had completely forgotten to mention that I have a red wiggler worm composting bin in my kitchen, so I have access to worm casings. My parents have a rather mature outdoor compost bin. The city also has a large composting/mulching(?) operation as well where one can get some for free.

I guess where I was getting lost, as I am still new to plants/gardening in general, is what are the important factors to emersed growth for Crypts? I know it is humidity and temperature, but I'm not sure what those parameters "ideally" are (knowing it's probably different for different species).

Would anyone be interested in writing up a "knowledge base" for crypts? I have a lot of experience with web development, am ok with graphic design, and have a lot of computer resources where I work. I would love to learn while helping create a unique resource for "Crypt-Heads" on the web. (Now that's just begging for a unique logo!)


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## andrew__ (May 18, 2007)

Now I read this, as a nice coating of ice and snow cover all possible sources for this stuff  maybe it'll get a bit warmer (hopefully before March) and I'll be able to find something to use. So far I've been able to grow crypts but I'm guessing that's as far as I'll get without giving them a little more than just flourite and very hard water.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

No need to wait. Just dig down through the snow to the leaves and topsoil, collect a volume of leaves (compressed) about equal to the volume of the topsoil, bring it all indoors and compost it for a couple of weeks in a loosely covered container. It would be helpful to cut up the leaves into small pieces before composting.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

HeyPK said:


> No need to wait. Just dig down through the snow to the leaves and topsoil, collect a volume of leaves (compressed) about equal to the volume of the topsoil, bring it all indoors and compost it for a couple of weeks in a loosely covered container. It would be helpful to cut up the leaves into small pieces before composting.


Maybe I should try this with some of my red wigglers in there to see if they compost it better/faster/differently...


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

Xema and some of our other Eurpoean friends seem to be having good luck with Akadama and Kanuma soils. They and Turface are clay based substrates that seem to be more acidic than Flourite.
I'm thinking about giving it a try. If anyone else is interested, it's available at www.dallasbonsai.com.
Xema suggests a 2-3 mm size granule.

Cheers.
Jim


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I just came across that site late last night! Synchronicity...

I had sent a private message to another member here (do not have the username handy at the moment) who said he was using some different ADA soils as well in some of his pots.

-Jason


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## Kai Witte (Jan 30, 2006)

Yes, ADA soil has been successfully used by quite a few crypt growers - it seems to be especially popular with Asian enthusiasts and their pics show very nice plants. I can see why people may prefer using it for submersed culture (easy and "clean") but I think there are better options for emersed culture. Not all crypts have similar requirements and experimenting with own soil mixes is fun, too...


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

I agree. Over the weekend I randomly mixed my own substrate. While I had been planning on making a more "scientific" one, one that I would have planned out so I could track it better, I ended up "cooking" one up. I mixed very well soaked coco-coir and peat (soaked in Dyna-Gro as per bottle's instructions), approximately equal amount of rinsed Schultz Aquatic Soil, some Zeosand, some mulm from a very well established aquarium, and some well-soaked sphagnum moss as well.

I just set up a 20-long which had been sitting in the basement of my building for two years untouched. Washed it out and put in some crypts. I decided to split up C. parva, C. tonkinensis, and C. affinis into two pots each. One a mesh, hydroponic-style with Hydroton, topped with some moss (different for each planter: willow, java, "tropical" a la Black Jungle). The other plant of each type in a terra-cotta pot with mesh on bottom, then some Hydroton, then some more mesh, then topped with my mix from above, then topped with moss.

We'll see, it's only been up for a 1.5 days. It's an experiment!


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## Kai Witte (Jan 30, 2006)

Hello Jason,

The affinis will benefit from crushed dolomite/limestone. 

Avoid mixing it with peat (moss) since their influences are pretty much antithetical. It's not rarely done in commercial cultures where the emphasis is on price and fast selling rather than long-term survival but it is a waste of resources: Mining for peat is not sustainable and if we want Asian goverments to stop destruction of crypt habitats, we might as well start with preserving our own endangered habitats...


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## ts168 (Apr 13, 2004)

Yes i agree, i do not use peat anymore.


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## rusticitas (Mar 10, 2004)

Is it a problem if there is a very tiny amount (~5%) of the "soil" mix is peat? It is mostly coco-coir and Schultz Aquatic Soil. I didn't realize that about the use of peat! I'll have to read more.


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## DelawareJim (Nov 15, 2005)

A little background on the peat issue for those who may be interested.

http://www.coirtrade.com/environment.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/11/28/eaindo228.xml

The article from the telegraph is of special importance for some of us because in a lot of cases the Indonesian peat bogs are prime Crypt. habitat.

Cheers.
Jim


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