# February 2007 Meeting



## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

Feb. 4th, Sun., 5:30 PM

This is early advance notice, I know, but Sam has kindly offered to host the Feb. meeting at his place. He has a 75 gal. he wants to set up and this offers a nice opportunity for an aquascaping discussion.

Sam will post directions to his place shortly.

Bob


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Sweet, can I bring da kid?


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Here's a map to my house.

Kids are more than welcome. The more, the merrier.

Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

I just replied to another post with this information, but I thought I'd put it here.

My plan for the tank that we're aquascaping at the February meeting is a low-maintenance, Walstad-type, low light planted tank that I can enjoy with my 2 year old daughter (she really loves feeding my fish when I let her).

In that vein, I could use hardscaping materials and low light plants (crypts, ferns, etc...).

Sam


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I can bring some crypts and small fern plantlets. Also some Tropica fern if you like. Also some smaller pieces of stone from Ohiopyle.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> I can bring some crypts and small fern plantlets. Also some Tropica fern if you like. Also some smaller pieces of stone from Ohiopyle.


Sounds great!

Also, I forgot to mention this, but I'll supply the pizza. So bring your appetites.


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## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

I'll bring some aquascaping stone.

Bob


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Is the tank set up already? I just got a bunch of C. balansae, more than I can need and have room for. If possible I'd like to bring some to the meeting Sunday to "save" for the Feb. meeting.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> Is the tank set up already? I just got a bunch of C. balansae, more than I can need and have room for. If possible I'd like to bring some to the meeting Sunday to "save" for the Feb. meeting.


No, it's not set up yet.

Sorry.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I still have that bag of soilmaster. I'll bring it to Sam's house.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

maybe we should set up the hardware (filter, heaters, etc.) beforehand, as well as the substrate? I remember that was a big part of the time setting up the tank at my place (substrate shaping, big dust cloud, clearing it up, etc).

Come to think of it, what is everyone's opinion on shaping the substrate, as opposed to just putting a flat layer? I remember we spent some time at it when we were scaping my tank, but in the end with all the plants grown in you don't even notice the shape/slope of the substrate. People always suggest at least sloping the substrate so that the back is higher than the front, but for the most part you place higher plants (or stem plants) in the back, so the slope doesn't seem necessary in my opinion....

Thoughts?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I didn't have a whole lot of clouding when I set up my 75, but it wouldn't be a bad idea for Sam to have the substrate ready beforehand. 

There really isn't much point in sloping it, as it tends to level out before long anyway.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> maybe we should set up the hardware (filter, heaters, etc.) beforehand, as well as the substrate? I remember that was a big part of the time setting up the tank at my place (substrate shaping, big dust cloud, clearing it up, etc).


I was thinking about that too. It won't be a problem to have the tank set up and ready to scape.



hooha said:


> Come to think of it, what is everyone's opinion on shaping the substrate, as opposed to just putting a flat layer? I remember we spent some time at it when we were scaping my tank, but in the end with all the plants grown in you don't even notice the shape/slope of the substrate. People always suggest at least sloping the substrate so that the back is higher than the front, but for the most part you place higher plants (or stem plants) in the back, so the slope doesn't seem necessary in my opinion....


I'm planning on the tank being a low light "El Natural" soil based Walstad type tank. So, sloping the substrate doesn't sound like it will work to me. Plus, like Cavan said, it'll level out before long anyway.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

I just remembered...

Anyone know where I can buy a bag of topsoil at this time of year?


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Lowes/Home Depot. I just bought a 40lb bag a couple weeks ago.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> Lowes/Home Depot. I just bought a 40lb bag a couple weeks ago.


Rock on.


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## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

Sam just informed me that he is not available on Feb 4th which happens to be Super Bowl Sun. Since he is our host for that meeting we have a delemna.

Any suggestions, anyone? We could keep the venue and postpone the meeting until the 11th...or move the venue to AOA, keep the date, and tell Sam, "see you in March. Go Chargers"

Bob


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

11th is fine with me. If it's Super Sunday I think more people would not be able to show than would be.....


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> 11th is fine with me. If it's Super Sunday I think more people would not be able to show than would be.....


That's exactly what I was thinking.

I would much rather move it to the 11th. That is far and away my preferred choice over waiting until March.


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## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

Since you're the host guy here, Sam, your opinion should hold much sway.

Cavan suggested to me that we consider a Super Bowl/ PAPAS meeting but it looks like concensus is leaning toward the 11th.

Any further opinions?

Bob


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

No comments?

I can make more guacamole if it makes any difference.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I still prefer the 11th myself. But I'll still take the guacamole.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> I still prefer the 11th myself. But I'll still take the guacamole.


I also prefer the 11th.

Can we get a vote or headcount?

Post a message and tell us what you think.


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

The 11th is much better for me. 

On the 4th I'm scheduled to work and with it being the Superbowl Sunday it will be next to impossible to find someone to switch for an opening shift. I won't get off from work until 8PM on Sundays. (I work two Sundays a month)

Kate P.


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## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

Folks,
Since it would be a real problem for Sam to put his meeting off until March lets make it official and postpone Feb's meeting until the 11th.

If that works for you, Sam, we'll plan on aquascaping your new 75 gal. tank.

I'll get in touch with anyone who doesn't have a subsequent post on this thread.

Bob


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## madmax (Sep 29, 2004)

Sounds good to me.


Tim


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the willingness to move the date of the meeting. 

Does anyone have some Marsilea sp. that they'd be willing to bring? I'm looking at you Bob.

Sam


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

any thoughts on the layout and hardscape for the tank?


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## BillW (Apr 23, 2005)

Bob Vivian said:


> Folks,
> Since it would be a real problem for Sam to put his meeting off until March lets make it official and postpone Feb's meeting until the 11th.
> 
> If that works for you, Sam, we'll plan on aquascaping your new 75 gal. tank.
> ...


I can make it on the 11th, but I will need directions to Sam's place.

Bill


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

IndianaSam said:


> Here's a map to my house.


Here you go Bill.

Click on the link and then click on "get directions".

Let me know if you have any more questions.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> any thoughts on the layout and hardscape for the tank?


Not really. I'm quite open to suggestions. I actually thought I'd let the "experts" just do their thing. I trust everyone in the club. Except Tim. :mrgreen:


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## madmax (Sep 29, 2004)

But Sam, I was going to use a beautiful rock I found at Ohiopyle that looks remarkably similar to the Steelers emblem. :snakeman: 


Tim


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

tatoos scare me


Well, what do we have available for the hardscape? Anyone bring rocks? Driftwood? Plastic mermaids?


What plants are we going to add? I'll see what crypts I have available, as well as portion of the Microsorum pteropus 'Tropica' I have available as well.

Echinodorus angustifolius?

Ranunculus?

Marsilea?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I've got some _Sagittaria subulata_, narrow leaf, 'Tiger' and some other stuff to bring.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> Well, what do we have available for the hardscape? Anyone bring rocks? Driftwood? Plastic mermaids?


Bob said he was going to bring some ohiopyle rock and I have a large piece of driftwood that may or may not work in the 'scape.


hooha said:


> What plants are we going to add? I'll see what crypts I have available, as well as portion of the Microsorum pteropus 'Tropica' I have available as well.


Thanks!


hooha said:


> Echinodorus angustifolius?
> 
> Ranunculus?
> 
> Marsilea?


I could go for some Marsilea.

Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Cavan Allen said:


> I've got some _Sagittaria subulata_, narrow leaf, 'Tiger' and some other stuff to bring.


Thanks Cavan!


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

I want to put a black background on the tank. Obviously this will be done before the meeting 

Any recommendations for materials that I should use? I thought of using black paint, but that just seems too permanent.

Thanks,
Sam


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Black posterboard works fine.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Black latex paint is easily scraped off. The problem is getting back behind the tank to scrape it off. Black posterboard works as Cavan says, I've heard people use cooking oil to keep it attached to the back without any 'bubble' spaces. Sounds kinda messy to me.


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

hooha said:


> Well, what do we have available for the hardscape? Anyone bring rocks? Driftwood? *Plastic mermaids*?


I don't have any plastic mermaids to bring, but I do have a plastic Tinkerbell; she's cute!:dance: Although I'm not sure if she's aquarium safe, :mmph: oh well.

Seriously though, I do have an extra _Echinodorus_ 'Ozelot' I can bring, I have it growing emersed but will start it underwater now. I've kept one of these in my 46g (no CO2, just Excel) now for a whole year, and while it's very full it's not grown too big - maybe 12"h x 12"w. I have some _Cryptocoryne walkeri _, which is one of my favorites. I also have plenty of _C. wendtii _'Tropica' if you can use more. Then I have a stem of _Ceratophyllum demersum _ (Hornwort) which is almost 36" long; this is great to float for absorbing extra nutrients during the breaking-in stage.

Also, wondering if you need, or want any snails? I started my 35g NPT with some ramshorn and I think they helped keep algae away. I know most folks, if you've got a few tanks, you usually have some snails -- otherwise just let me know.

Another thing which I did when starting up my soil tanks is I would position my tank, including leveling etc. Then layer in my soil substrate and gravel cap, filling the tank just 1/4 to 1/3 full. I would do this one or two weeks before actually planting. When it came time to plant I would drain off all this standing water before my planting session. I think by allowing the substrate to be submerged then drained I could sidestep some of the initial nutrient spikes.

*** *** ***
Hey, Cavan, how'd I do with my italics, etc???


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

hooha said:


> Black posterboard works as Cavan says, I've heard people use cooking oil to keep it attached to the back without any 'bubble' spaces. Sounds kinda messy to me.


Hooha, I do believe the oil trick is only used with the specially purchased vinyl backgrounds you'd get at an LFS. These backgrounds are waterproof and will not absorb the oil. On posterboard....YES...you would get a BIG MESS.

I like something waterproof on the back of the tank because it doesn't seem to matter how extra careful I try to be; sooner or later I splash some water. Even a small teaspoon of water will cause waterspots which mar the appearance. On posterboard that damage would be permanent. Even on the vinyl the water causes distortions, but at least they can be cleaned up. However it is often difficult and irritating to get behind a 4ft tank to clean. So, now on my vinyl backgrounds I seal the entire top edge by running a strip of packing tape so water drops don't run down between the outside glass and inside of the backing.

I've never been brave enough to paint any tank; I'm sure part of it is because I also go back and forth about which colors I prefer.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I also have a ton of floaters I can bring for the tank's beginning stages - just let me know if you want it Sam, otherwise I don't want to have to mess around picking them out  Hornwort would be a great way to keep the excess nutrients down, and easily removed afterwards (or brought in to the next GPASI meeting for the AHAP program)


If Cavan becomes an italics stickler I quit the club


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> I also have a ton of floaters I can bring for the tank's beginning stages - just let me know if you want it Sam, otherwise I don't want to have to mess around picking them out  Hornwort would be a great way to keep the excess nutrients down, and easily removed afterwards (or brought in to the next GPASI meeting for the AHAP program)


I think that I'll have it covered. Thanks, though.



hooha said:


> If Cavan becomes an italics stickler I quit the club


_I'll show Cavan right where he can put his italics, buddy._


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## Bob Vivian (Sep 10, 2004)

Sam,
I have a few plants of Marsillea that I recently got from Tim. They're just starting to spread so I have only a very few to spare.
I'll bring what I can.

Bob


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Bob Vivian said:


> Sam,
> I have a few plants of Marsillea that I recently got from Tim. They're just starting to spread so I have only a very few to spare.
> I'll bring what I can.
> 
> Bob


I think Tim's bringing some, so don't worry about it.

Thanks though!

Sam


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## madmax (Sep 29, 2004)

Hey Sam, even though I hate you I am bringing:

Cryptocoryne affinis
Cryptocoryne crispatula
Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia
Hygrophila sp. 'Bold'
Marsilea sp.
Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow' 
Microsorum pteropus 'Tropica'
Microsorum sp. (the one you said you wanted)
Polygonum hydropiperoides
Polygonum sp. 'Kawagoneum'
Taxiphyllum alternans

I was going to bring:

Lemna minor
Monoselenium tenerum
Utricularia gibba
Wolffia arrhiza

But maybe I'll mix a little in for you. 

I hope you're enjoying your dwarf cajun crays!

Later,

Tim


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

madmax said:


> Hey Sam, even though I hate you I am bringing:
> 
> Cryptocoryne affinis
> Cryptocoryne crispatula
> ...


Tim,

Despite the fact that I hate you more, I will probably say thank you.

Sam


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## DiPpY eGgS (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm starting to get all warm and fuzzy feeling, listening to you guys


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Is there any way that someone could bring 6 or 7 folding chairs?

Thanks,
Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Oops. Posted twice.


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

I can bring 2 if need be.

Stephen O. from GPASI (the president still, I believe) inquired about the meeting and asked for directions, which I sent. Hope I wasn't being to presumptive....


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

errr....presumptious......some "p" word anyway


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Just wanted to thank everyone again.

The tank looks wonderful and my wife and kids and I had a great time.

I'm sorry that you had to miss it Bob.

Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Tim,

Post some pictures!

Sam


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## DiPpY eGgS (Jun 3, 2005)

Hey, thanks for having us, Sam. I had a good time as well, and thanks also for the pizza and coffee 
Your family is awesome, and your tank looks marvelous!


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Good times folks, thanks again Sam for having us. Toddlers never cease to entertain me. It's even better when they're not yours, so when it's 'code brown' or crying time, you can walk away. 

You need more tanks in your fishroom though, so that I can convince Wendi that I'm not the only one with a "store" in my basement. Unless Tim is hospitalized from eating sori, I expect pics soon.


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## madmax (Sep 29, 2004)

Sam, we had a great time on Sunday. I'd like to thank your wife (oh, and you) for letting us use the Darko household for the PAPAS meeting. Also, thanks for the non-cheese hoagie. I'm having problems uploading the pics onto APC so I e-mailed them to you Sam.  I hope you're enjoying your tank.


Later,

Tim


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

madmax said:


> I hope you're enjoying your tank.


I am enjoying my tank.

Just wanted to tell everyone that my wife and I had a great time too. She was actually talking about hosting it again in 6 months or so.

Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Okay guys. Here's a pretty cloudy picture of the tank after everything was said and done at the end of the night.










I'll update as the tank progresses.

Sam


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Sweet. tale a pic this weekend  Did it clear up ok or is there the brown film on everything?


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> Sweet. tale a pic this weekend  Did it clear up ok or is there the brown film on everything?


Yeah, I'll post another picture this weekend. It's pretty much crystal clear at this point and looking great!


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Okay, here's an update. It's been a week since the tank was planted. In that time I have added about 50 MTS and 6 Angelfish. 2 of the crypts seem to have melted, but I'm not touching them hoping that something will come back. The Marselia have sent out some new leaves. The Hygro "Bold" and "Tiger" are growing, but seem to prefer to grow horizontally right now rather than vertically. There's a light directly above them, so I'm a bit confused.

Anyway, here are some pictures:
A photo of the entire tank-->









Some angelfish hanging out over a melted Crypt-->









The left side of the tank-->









The ozelot sword seems to be doing well-->









Some happy angelfish-->









A blurry picture of the right side of the tank-->









Enjoy!

Sam


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## DiPpY eGgS (Jun 3, 2005)

The tank really looks great. I had fun watching it come to life 
It's ALIVE.. IT's AAALLIIIVVVEEE!


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## madmax (Sep 29, 2004)

Wow! It's really coming along. How is the condition of the plants? I forget, did you say you were going to do DIY CO2?


Later,

Tim


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## hooha (Apr 21, 2005)

Sweet, it's coming along nicely. I really like the hardscape setup too.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

madmax said:


> Wow! It's really coming along. How is the condition of the plants? I forget, did you say you were going to do DIY CO2?


The overall condition of the plants is pretty good. Like I said there was some melting of 2 of the crypts, everything else is just peachy.

I'm not using CO2 since I'm trying for a Walstad type "natural planted tank".

Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

hooha said:


> Sweet, it's coming along nicely. I really like the hardscape setup too.


I really like the hardscape too. I'd be remiss if I didn't thank the more artistically inclined members of PAPAS who determined the hardscape. So, thank you!

Also a huge thanks to Cavan who supplied the rocks (one of which is on long-term loan).

Sam


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Okay, so I'm getting some diatoms in my tank. Everything else looks good. I guess I'm going to pick up some nerites this week (would 15 be too many?).


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

That's not too many. If anything, I'd consider more.


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

Cavan Allen said:


> That's not too many. If anything, I'd consider more.


Maybe I'll go with 25 or 30...


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