# Help needed-KH and pH falling



## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

I have a 20 gal long tank that was set up in March with 1" miracle grow organic potting soil, 1" small gravel and lighting as recommended in the _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_. The tank has an internal filter (Tetra 10i) that still has its biological filter as well as the white filter cloth.
Plants:
1 Echinodorus martii-sword
3 cryptocorne wendtii
Bacopa monneri
2 Cryptocorne parva
many Limnobium spongia-frogbit
water sprite
anachris

fish:
1 betta
4 corydora aeneus
4 small corydora (trilineatus and unknown)
3 otocinclus
3 white cloud mountain minnows
1 neon

snails: 
pond
ramshorn
malaysian trumpet snails

I thought my tank was a success-no more algae, wonderful plant growth requiring biweekly thinning, water changes mainly to decrease tanins in the water. My readings have been NH3-0, N02-0, NO3-5-20 (I do a water change over 20). In the past pH was usually 7.4-7.8, KH was 8 and GH I bring up to 8-10 with calcium and magnesium (unfortunately I have softened water and no way to bypass the system).

Saturday I found one of my litte cories dead. I checked all water parameters and found that my pH was down to 6 or below, and KH was 2. All the other fish appeared to be fine. I had done a 50% water change one week before but didn't check pH or KH at that time because they had been stable.

After the water change the KH was back up to 5, but this morning is already down to 3. I've read that adding oyster grit in the filter may help, but I would like to know what else I need to do to stabilize the tank.

I have been having exponential snail population growth too-I try not to overfeed but the snails seem to fight the bottom feeders for food. I do appreciate how clean my tank is otherwise.

In summary,
How do I stabilize the KH and pH?
How do I limit snail populations?
Do you think the cory died from pH/KH, or is it unrelated (I would think with my plants and mtsnails that my substrate would be okay)?

Thank you for reading-
Debbie


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

How's the oxygen? Are they gasping at the surface in the morning? PH goes down with rising CO2, so you may have times that you have plenty of CO2 but not enough oxygen. I am not an expert on that. 

Snails generally reproduce according to the food supply. I use yo yo loaches to reduce snail populations, but it sounds like you have plenty of fish in there. To quickly reduce the population, put a slice of cucumber or zucchini in a small bowl of water in the microwave for a minute, cool, drain, and put bowl in your tank. When you come back it will be covered with snails. Remove bowl, empty snails, replace vegetable and bowl in your tank and repeat. You can remove a lot of snails in a short time this way.

I add oyster shell or crushed coral to my substrate as my water is pretty soft. It seems to help. I'd be surprised if your cory died strictly due to the pH/KH, but again, I'm not an expert in that. Since you are having issues, I would test your tap water right before you do a water change. My municipal water can vary greatly depending on where they are in their maintenance cycle. A fifty percent change can add a lot of chlorine or other items that you might not be testing for. 

Good luck with your tank - sorry about your cory.


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Thank you Vicky,

My fish don't seem to have any problem with oxygen levels. The cories and beta occasionally go to the surface, but the mountain minnows and neon are mid-level and active as always.

I did add crushed oyster shell to my substrate when I started the tank, and I just added more to the filter to see if that will help stabilize the KH. My pH and KH appeared to be stable before now-my tanks have always been alkaline on my softened well water. I need to find the balance. I had duckweed when I started the tank but spent so much time thinning it that I removed it (I still have frogbit running rampant), but my levels were more balanced...I may need to get some back!

Thanks for the snail removal technique, I'll try it to lower the bioload on the tank. I've also cut my feeding back, but am trying twice a day in smaller amounts so that the fish can get to the food before the snails surround it. I wish my beta liked snails!

Regards
Debbie


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## Jark (Feb 6, 2010)

I have my GH drop in my tanks but have never had a problem with KH or pH. I use seachem equilibrium to boost the GH and supplement potassium and trace elements. It will buffer pH and increase KH as well. 

I have used the zucchini method of removing snails. It works in combination with just smashing any I can find and feeding the crushed snails to my hord of guppies. I wonder if your booming snails population would be enough to lower your KH by using up calcium to make their shells.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

If your pH is really dropping that low, there is something drastically wrong with your aquarium environment. 

The fact that your snail population is "exploding" suggests that there is a lot of rotting food in there for them. 

I suggest that you give your aquarium a thorough cleaning.

Bill


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks,

Bill,
I will do a thorough cleaning with another 50% water change and vacuum my gravel more than I have been (I've been worried about disturbing the soil layer). Hopefully that will re-establish a balance in addition to removing snails and limiting feeding. Is there anything else I should be watching for that would acidify the tank? 

Jark, 
I have been increasing the water hardness by the instructions in the NPT sticky because I was thinking that Equilibrium, which I used before converting to a NPT, was contributing to my algae problem. I may use a little in the future for some of the trace elements because I've noticed a few holes in my cryptocorne wendtii. I'm a wimp when it comes to crushing snails-I usually scoop them out and freeze them-maybe my fish would get a taste for them if they were crushed.

Regards,
Debbie


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

The only other thing I can think of is how are you testing pH? The liquid drops are generally more accurate than the strips, and the strips usually have an expiration date - after which they are sometimes useless. 

Just for grins, put some tank water in a cup and let it sit overnight and test pH again. CO2 is great for plants, but does lower pH. Still, if the other fish are healthy, it may not really be a problem. 

If you want a fast way to do in the snails, pour some salt in the container they are in. Try not to look at the color as you pour them out.


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Sounds like you could make a dye, like the royal purple from murex snail shells.

The squash has worked great-much easier to remove snails enmasse. How many days should I do this? How many snails should you be able to see at a time in a 20 gal before having algae problems again? 

After cleaning yesterday with a 25% water change (I did 50% on Saturday and thought more might be too much), the KH is 5 and pH is just under 7 (I use drops to test). My well water holds KH steady at 8 and pH at 7.8. 

Should I bring the KH higher with baking soda?

Thanks,
Debbie


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Debbie, I'm going to suggest that your problem may be the water softener. If you have a conventional sodium salt-based water softener, it may make the water unsuitable for aquarium use. We have that type of softener in our house, and after doing some research, I decided to use only un-treated water in my tanks.

What happens is this: the water softener works by replacing calcium ions with sodium ions. Calcium, especially in the form of calcium carbonate, is used by plants and helps to buffer pH. Sodium is used by plants and fish in much smaller quanitites, does not buffer pH, and can build up in the water to toxic levels.

By topping up your tank with softened water, you may have caused a sodium salt build-up over time. The water changes help because they dilute the sodium. But if you could do some water changes with untreated water, that would help even more by removing excess sodium, adding calcium, and maybe stabilizing pH.

Adding baking soda will increase calcium carbonate and thus KH, but will not remove sodium.

I am not an expert on water chemistry, but this is what I understand from my reading. I hope it helps.

--Michael


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Michael,

Yes, I know now that softened water isn't the best, but I didn't when I set up my first tank. I thought replacing minerals would help, but I see your point about the sodium building up in a NPT. One of my neighbors, on the same water softener system, has kept silver dollars over ten years on this water-but does not have plants. 

I've used bottled water before, but had a hard time consistantly finding a water that was hard enough; most are soft acidic spring water (I don't want to think what I spent on bottled water during an ich treatment when I first started out-before I found out about my neighbor's fish). I may give it another try with a bottled municiple water and keep enough on hand for an emergency (human or fish!).

Thanks,
Debbie


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. If you are already having issues from sodium (from the water softener) do not use this material to raise the carbonates. Baking soda will raise KH and pH, and does not affect GH. 

Equilibrium has many of the minerals that fish and plants need. It raises GH by adding Ca and Mg. It does not raise KH, or alter pH. 

To deal with the KH and pH issue try adding crushed coral or oystershell grit to the filter. 
Oystershell grit is fed to birds as a source of calcium. It can be found in pet stores, sold for Budgies and similar small birds. Larger pieces are available for chickens. The Budgie sized pieces are smaller, and look like sand. 

It would be better to find a way to bypass the water softener. Is this water used to irrigate the garden? Is it available (unsoftened) through a hose faucet?


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Hi Diana-

Thanks for reminding me that baking soda has sodium (I knew that but was only thinking of KH).
I have added oyster grit for chickens to my filter. Last three days have had steady readings of KH-5 and PH-7.

I am actually in a marina, where foolishly the entire well-water system is softened first-even the water they use to pressure-wash the boats.

I have access to captured rain water (captured in big 250 gal tanks), purchasing RO water, or finding bottled water that is already hard. I have equilibrium, calcium (liquid for marine tanks), and magnesium (epsom salts). The rain water and RO would have to be supplemented to increase KH and GH.

What do you think the best option would be for water source and supplement?

Should I get all visible snails out of the tank (and hope that decreased food creates a balance)?

Debbie


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I collect rain water for my tanks, and add minerals as needed. 
Since my tap water does not have sodium added I do use baking soda, and have not seen problems that I might attribute to that. 
I do not use much (if any) in most tanks, just for my hard water tanks. I use Equilibrium for GH.

Just to cloud the issue some more... 
Double check some of Diana Walstad's posts and responses here in this forum about sulfur and sulfates in fertilizers and other things that end up in these tanks. (Equilibrium has several minerals in the sulfate form) Seems the sulfur ends up in the substrate, and may contribute to problems involving the anaerobic bacteria. They utilize it in creating hydrogen sulfide, a toxic gas.
Here is one of the better threads about this issue. 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...et-thumb-forum-calcium-dosing-increase-2.html


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Diana,
Thanks for the link-I had not seen this discussion-but I do remember reading about the sulfates in Ms. Walstad's book. That was why I switched to the plain calcium and magnesium for my planted tank. I still have the equilibrium from my previous tank, and think, from my reading, that it may have been part of my algae problem. 

I can see needing the trace minerals with RO water and even rain water. I'll have to reread my book to see how best to supplement in the planted tank.

Rain water would be my least expensive option, but if I can decrease water changes to every 6 months it my be worth the bottled water (if I can find hard water), and then I'll have 8 gallons of potable water on hand during an emergency that hopefully won't taste like the plastic jug. 

Can I also get some opinions on how low I should get my snail population?

Thanks, 
Debbie


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

dachewitt said:


> Can I also get some opinions on how low I should get my snail population?/QUOTE]
> 
> Debbie, I have become a snail convert. Long ago when I was in the hobby the first time, there was great prejudice against snails and I went along with it. I still felt that way when I started my El Natural, but I took a deep breath and alowed ramhorns into the tank. My anubias came with a thick coating of hard, dark green algae that I could not get off with a toothbrush. Within 48 hours, the ramshorns completely cleaned the plants.
> 
> ...


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Michael,
I have reached a population that at certain times of the day the bottom is crawling with mts, ramshorns and pondsnails (when I started my tank I was worried if 3 mts would be able to find eachother-ha!).

I'm afraid that my extra pinch of food for the plants was too much, and now my snails have taken over. I also got rid of all snails in my previous tank and had horrible algae to contend with-at least an hour a week hand cleaning plants in a bucket! I much prefer snails-just not this many. It is great to watch them demolish an old frogbit leaf. 

I'm also afraid that the snails are part of my water quality issue so I am removing many and then will decrease food until the population is stable-I'd rather have more fish than snails.

Thanks for your help.
Debbie


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I hand remove the snails when they get too many. I feed them to my 125 gallon tank which has Clown Loaches. Some other tanks also have snail eating fish. 

Here are a few ways to bait them:
Sliced orange. The fish eat the part we like, and the snails will collect on the rind. Scoop with a net (they fall off the rind). 

Put a shallow bowl in the tank with whatever sinking food you want. Cooked vegetables, pelleted fish food or whatever you find works. I have even read of smearing some meat (perhaps liver) on the bowl, just enough for flavor, not enough to cause any problems in the tank. Lift out the bowl full of snails each morning and re-bait.

You will never get rid of all the snails, so however many you catch is up to you. You can keep on regularly baiting and removing them (maybe once a week or so), or let them build up for a while, then go on a rampage.


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## vicky (Feb 18, 2010)

I think too many snails are the result of poor water quality, not the cause of it. A little pinch of food shouldn't cause a huge increase. The only times I have had an explosion of snails, was right after I had a large plant die-off. The snails expand to eat it all - rapidly. Removing the excess snails (Diana had good suggestions for this), water changes with mineral replacement, and fixing whatever caused the plants to die brought back balance fairly quickly.


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks for the snail advice-

So far zuchinni has worked well-I left my last piece in overnight and even my albino cories seem to like it (though I haven't seen my otos on it yet). Oranges sound good too-strange to think of fish liking citrus.

I'm hoping once I get the population down that it stays stable. I'm not good at culling snails or anything else! I haven't had any plants die off. I was overfeeding enough that my daughter now says our betta is too fat-but our cories seem too small. At least water parameters are holding steady and I'll start my next partial with rain or bottled water. 
Thanks to all,
Debbie


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## Grathum (Jul 13, 2010)

Hmmm, if this tank had been being depleted of calcium (having it replaced by sodium) where were the snails getting the Ca they needed to build their shells I wonder...


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## dachewitt (Feb 28, 2010)

I supplement my softened water with calcium and magnesium up to ~8 dGH. The snails haven't suffered, but some of the shells have white streaks from when the levels got too low. I have a huge 3/4 in. ramshorn and some of the biggest pond snails I've ever seen. I think most of the breeding is done by the small to medium snails, so I have left in the great-great-great-grandparents to watch.

Debbie


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