# Ammonia and canister filter



## ken05salmon (Feb 1, 2007)

Hello:
I have a 90 gal freshwater tank set up now for little over one year. And my filter is Fluval 405, provides 4 separate chambers for media selection, 4 large sponge type pre-filters and high output. Initially, I had some ammonia and lost a few fish after setting up tank and just allowing tank to "Age for maybe 10 days. I do understand that my desire to get the tank looking good and introduction of fish requires patience and this "hurried" approach was not positive. 
Over the next few months, have taken many water quality tests and went to a RO system totally dedicated to supply of water for the aquarium. And I did not introduce more new fish over the next 9 to 10 months. And fish were doing well, plus the plants looked good, in places growth and snails I felt were taking over, so took to donating the main plant (Myria) + snails to "Jacks Aquarium and Pets," my local fish store. 
And just recently purchased some Black Neon tetras plus some Red Tailed Sharks. Well, about 1 day later I lost one Tetra, then over the next few days lost 3 more. Sharks are fine, plus all my other species seem to be doing well. 
I have done several checks on water and have found ammonia in quantity of approximately 0.25 to perhaps a little more. More recently, that number has dropped to somwhere under 0.25 PPM; of the 6 Black Neon tetras we lost 4. So my question: Would a "Bio-Wheel" type filter be better in terms of Ammoina and growth of the good bacteria? 
I do like many elements of the Fluval, but (just me) am doubtful as to how good this is as to preventing Ammonia spikes and/ or growth of the positive bacteria. Before I set up this 90 gal. aquarium, I had used a bio-Wheel type filtration with a small tank, and believe the Penguin filter has some strong positives going for it. 
1) Believe that a bio-Wheel is much better in terms of providing a good living conditions for the bacteria that limit ammonia. (I never did have any issues with Ammonia when I used a bio-wheel).
2) Not sure, but think with the application of water to the spinning wheel and then the "Drop" of water into aquarium, the water may be better oxygenated than say through a typical canister type filter. Appriciate any feedback or suggestions as to limiting Ammonia.
Presently, I have added an additional pack of the "Bio-Max" media to another chamber in the Fluval, so that I currently have two chambers totally devoted to the "Bio-max" media. I've also added a supplement called "Bio Boost" a Jack's additive that supposedly will help with growth of more bacteria. 
Thanks.....


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## Adragontattoo (Jun 3, 2007)

You will get mixed opinions of the "bacteria enhancers" that are available. Some people will swear by them, others think they are nothing more then snake oil.

How many fish were present in the tank prior to adding the tetras and sharks?

How many sharks did you add?


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

Another thing is that some of the tetras are more susceptible to iffy conditions and perhaps not as healthy or robust to begin with as other species of fish. I had trouble getting a good group of black neon tetras, but once they were in and well adapted they've managed to hang tough through the occasional rough spot or water quality slip. It's the first week that really seemed to be the tough time. Some of them barely lasted a day while other species of fish in the tank were happy and healthy. So try to make sure you're getting healthy stock and do a slower acclimation process to reduce stress. Don't get too many fish at once either as the beneficial bacteria have to build up to deal with the added waste.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I am in agreement with you concerning bio wheels. I do believe they allow more O2 contact with the media. However, they are usually noisy and unless you modify the output they can outgas the CO2 some of us add to our planted tanks.

As far as controlling ammonia, the two best ways to control ammonia are with a properly set up tank and consistent (weekly) water changes. Plants are also a big help but since you are on this forum, you probably already knew that  If your tank is medium to heavily planted you won't have to worry about cycling it.

Any new filter can be seeded with mulm from an older filter and you can also add some peat and mulm to the bottom of your tank when you first set it up. Here is a link to setting up a substrate for a planted tank. This method works well with non-planted tanks also. Mulm is the best thing you can use since it already has bacteria and food in it, plus it is free. I don't think most "bacteria enhancers" are worth the money, after all, mulm is free.

I have had very little luck with any fish I have purchased at Jacks. Cardinals, Rummy Nose, and Neons have all died in a matter of days. Most of the other local sources here in Dayton are about the same. However, I have had very good luck with fish purchased both in Columbus and Cincinnati.

By far, the most luck I have had is from fellow SWOAPE  members who breed fish. These fish are already accustomed to our water supply and have not had to go through the stress of shipping. Not to mention they are usually cheaper  I believe rwoehr is working on breeding some Black Neons right now. If you have to buy your fish from a LFS, make sure you buy them after they have been in the tank for a while (this way the store takes the loss on the fish instead of you) or get them directly from the shipping bag when the store gets them. I have had good luck with LFS when getting the fish directly from the shipping bag.

Also, is your test kit in date? Some LFS don't cycle their stock. I have purchased expired test kits from LFS before so double check the date on your kit.

To answer your initial question, I think you will be just fine with the Fluval. I run them on my tanks along with a Magnum 350 on my planted tank and have yet to have any problems with ammonia. You can always add some mulm from another tank or filter to get the bacteria started in your new Fluval.

To seed your Fluval without taking it off the tank, squeeze out the sponges or filter media from an established tank into a small container with a lid. If you don't have enough mulm to fill the container add some water from the tank you got the mulm from. I like to use Rubbermaid containers for this. Put the container, with the lid on it, under your Fluval inlet, and open the lid. The mulm from the container will be sucked into the intake and seed your Fluval sponges and media. Whatever happens to bypass the filter media in the Fluval will go into the tank and should help provide some beneficial bacteria to whatever surface it lands on.


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## ken05salmon (Feb 1, 2007)

Do appreciate your response (Adragontatto, CS_gardener, Matpat):
My computer (home) had taken a "Dive," and then just forgot about my post to your site. My Apologies! Anyway, I'm still in the same mode, Ammonia reads approximately 0.25 ppm. Have not lost any more fish, and even purchased some more Tetras, but not the Black neon variety. I have 3 red tailed sharks purchased in early December and they're all fine. However, one has about doubled in size is "King Chaser" of the other two Red tails; nobody seems to be hurt, but this one acts like he "owns" the aquarium. Also have added two (2) clown loaches and they're also good. 
The plants are also doing very well, I do not supplement CO2. Lighting is with a custom made hood (AH supply) with 4 55 watt compact fluorescent bulbs. However, I usually just run 2 of compact fluorescent bulbs at a time as (in the past) I did have an algae bloom. 
Your responses have raised some interesting questions: I have "no idea" about expiration of my Mandryl Test Strips, they may be out of date? I will check this carefully. I simply had gone with these test strips as my aquarium store (Jacks) also uses and recommended. 
A few years back, believe I had used a solution by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, (so many drops per solution of fish water). To tell the truth, I really was quite ignorant as to looking for an expiration date on these test kits. 
I also have no idea regarding "Mulm?" And, I do not have another tank by which I may gather some "mulm." I would appreciate any more information on this "Mulm," or any other method regarding elimination of Ammonia. 
My Thanks to all.....


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## lauraleellbp (Jan 31, 2008)

Ken,

"mulm" is the organic matter typically found in the bottom of an established fish tank; if you transport some of the gunk you would normally be removing from one of your other tanks and add it to your filter, it is a better way to "boost" your canister filter. It's a good idea to do this any time you add new fish to help boost the bacteria levels at exactly the same time you're increasing the bioload. If you had access to mulm you should be able to forego the commercial products alltogether; guess that's not the case in your situation though. (I personally plan to invest in some Bio-Spira for my tank stocking plan; it's the only product that I'm aware of that is kept refrigerated and so I think has the best chance of truly containing live bacteria? I'm going to try and and draw my own conclusions...) If you're not using CO2 I'd try a biowheel and see what happens?

How heavily planted is your tank? If it's not pretty well planted, my best advice would be just get more plants; that could solve all your troubles right there.

I'm a small tetra nut, and tetras can be extremely tricky to get established in a tank. The larger the school (I'd recommend buying twice the # you think you want), the better the chance of some making it, but there is a large combination of issues that contribute to their being so delicate (source and handling has alot to do with it). My best advice is to scrutinize the fish you're buying extremely carefully, plus all the rest of the stock in the LFS. If anything in the store has ich or fungus, don't get any tetras, at least not right then. Don't buy anything that's been in the store less than a week, don't buy any stock that was shipped from Asia, and quarantine, quarantine, quarantine! Minimum of 2 weeks. I quarantine in salted water; slightly less than 1tsp/gallon non-iodized salt. I do tend to lose about 30-50% of my tetra purchase, but I've NEVER had any disease or parasite of any sort in my tank, and to me that is worth it. I actually think I would probably lose more if I didn't treat them first, as I prefer wild-caught stock. (I also keep a little salt in my fish-only tanks). I drip-acclimate them twice; first to the QT tank and then again through PWC with water from their destination tank. Once tetras are established, though, they are pretty hardy and about the only thing that will affect them is a poorly-chosen tankmate... (I learned recently to my dismay that blood-fin tetras and rummy-nosed tetras are not a good mix)


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## ken05salmon (Feb 1, 2007)

Laura Lee: Thanks! I had not considered length of time these fish were in store, just assumed they were OK. The plants (have many different types) and a couple dwarf Lilies. All doing very well. Now, am unsure about the Bio-Wheel. My custom hood with 4 reflectors and bulbs would need be significantly modified in order to accomodate a Bio-wheel type filter. Not sure I'd want to "Hack up" my hood that took me about 20+ hours to build. Thanks much for your reply!
Ken


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## DaveS (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm a little bit surprised at your test results to be honest. In a tank with a decent plant load, especially one that has been up and running for more than a year, I find it hard to believe that you are getting any ammonia reading at all. Have you verified your test results with a different test kit, or perhaps by making a reference solution? I have started up numerous tanks by first establishing a plant load and then going to a decently high stocking level all at once afterwards and I have never seen a measureable ammonia reading, and some of those tanks have nothing more than sponge filters. I'm not saying it isn't happening, it just seems odd to me.

Dave


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## lauraleellbp (Jan 31, 2008)

Sorry if someone already mentioned this (didn't see it?) but have you checked the expiration date on your test strips?

Also, what kind of "lilies" do you have in your tank? Are you sure that they are true aquatic plants? Many stores sell plants that they will TELL you are aquatic but are not, and will start rotting in your tanks... this would be a good candidate for an ammonia source?

If a biowheel would be that much work, I'd scrap the idea too lol

Last but not least, as awesome as red-tailed sharks are, there's a good chance your "king" is eventually going to directly or indirectly be the death of the other two, especially as they all grow out. If you have lots of caves so they can each establish their "own" (and the loaches will need their own cave too- though they may share one) they MIGHT all be ok, but it sounds like there are already problems and IME those problems will probably just get worse as time goes on? My 2cents is to recommend you only keep one and go get some store credit somewhere for the other 2 while they're still in good health.


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