# Thinking about getting an Apistogramma Panduro



## rachpreach (May 23, 2006)

I saw some of these at my LFS and I was thinking about getting a male and a female. I was wanting to know more about them. Are they easy to keep? Do they have any special needs? Can they go with angels and rainbow fish? The price of each of them at the LFS is $14.99...is that a good price?

thanks


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Price isn't too bad, I've seen much worse, fosters and smith at $59 to $69 a pair, however many LFS (not all, am not familiar with yours, if it is a good store this doesn't apply, but if it is a pet center that sells fish, it probably does) do not house these fish very well, and they are sold under stress, depending on how long they are kept before being sold, they can get disease, and if untreated, they will succumb in your tank shortly.

They are great fish, they can go with angles and other SA species.

Like most SA dwarf cichlids, they like their tanks kept HOT, 82 min, 84 good, and up to 87 can be desireable. This will seriously limit your plant keeping choices. If you do South American Biotopes with plants from the area and warm the tank, they are great fish to keep and breed.

They are herem spawners, so 1 male should be housed with at least 2 females, 3 would be ideal, if you set up caves at least 8" apart, the females will claim them and the male will patrol about them. they are bottom dwelling fish so angels and tetras are good tank mates, I keep some apisto Cacatoides with German blue Rams, Red Serpae Minor Tetras, Cardinal Tetras and albino Bristlenose Plecos. I keep my tank 83 to 84 and everybody is happy.
My plants are (common names mostly, I am horrible with scientific spelling and saying) Cabomba, Anacharis, Java Fern, brazilian swords, and jungle vals.
Plants grow great, apistos and rams spawn (rams don't hatch due to hard water, but I am switching it over to RO slowly) and I just love that tank and it's fish.
(some will disagree about the hard water and Rams eggs, but I havn't been succesful in hard water yet)

German blue Rams are my favorite, and most Apistos are 2nd.
I am getting ready to set up a 75 gallon discus tank. I will use some tetras as dither fish and house Blue Rams in there also.
I am not sure the discus will do well with the Apostos, or vice versa, but I may try. If not the next tank will be a 40 gallon breeder Apisto only tank.
I like the Panduro, Cacatoides, and Agazzi as well as many others I can't spell or remember by name.

I think you will like apistos, one last thing, water changes are a must, like Rams and Discus, they like clean water, 50% once a week min, twice a week better.

Apistodave on aquatraders sells a huge variaty of apistos, panduro's as well, his prices range from $12 to $20 a pair, of course you have to ship, but the quality of Apistos, I haven't seen better. Look him up, great guy, great fish, great help.


Side note,
I am not knocking on any other breeders apistos, What I am saying here is Apistodave's are the best that I have ever seen, not that they are better then yours, I just haven't seen yours. Maybe I would buy a pair from you in the future so I can compare, PM me if you have great apistos for sale.
I try to buy trios, and I will take spare females.


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## Tonka (Mar 20, 2004)

Panduros are a super fish. A couple of points to bear in mind:

1) They are territorial especially versus other apistos. 
2) Only if your tank is larger than 50 gallons (IMHO) should you try to have more than one male.
3) Multiple females are OK - maybe preferable....
4) All of the apistograma species I have kept (4), including Panduros, will not take flake or pellet, only frozen or live food.
5) Apistos need shelter, like inside wood or in small clay pots to breed and otherwise hang out. Lots of plants is a must too.
6) I've always bought through breeders and never paid more than about $10 for a juvenile.
7) Apistos require soft acidic water - opposite to what is appropriate for rainbows.
8) Apistos will be intimidated by angels, but this might be OK.

Your biggest issue is that Apistos feed towards the bottom of the tank. Your other fish may get all the food before it gets to the level that Apistos are comfortable feeding at.

IMHO, Apistos are best when they are the dominant speicies in the tank. They will then best be able to express their personalities and have the most natural behavior. Breeding them is lots of fun too. Fry might survive as they stick close to the substrate. 

Note my Avatar!


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## rachpreach (May 23, 2006)

tonka- I wish I could find a local breeder. How did you find a breeder?


Im kind of scared to get some of these. I have had german blue rams of which two have died over the past year. I know that they are very sensitive fish. I do 50% water changes weekly so I know i keep up with a clean tank. Im just scared if I have had bad luck with rams then I might not do good with apistos.


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## rachpreach (May 23, 2006)

goalcreas- I went to aquatraders.com but i dont see where they sell live fish. Is that the right website?


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

teribly sorry

Aquabid

look under Apistos which is under SA cichlids

then find seller Apistodave

I have bought fish from Tarmack (or tamarack) also, he is good to deal with as well.

Tonka good advise, I haven't had problems with them coming up for food, but I never kept them with Angels which I understand are very aggresive feders, so that may be a problem.
with rams, since they are both shy, they seem to balance out where neither of the Rams or Apistos are totally dominant of the tank. I do keep multiple pairs of Rams in the tank, but only one Male Apisto.

rachpreach What is your water temp. Rams need it about 82 min. for longevity, they will die off if kept too cool for too long

However I have never kept Rainbows, don't know what they need.

Maybe you should start another tank and get your warmer water species in there and keep the others where they are.

In the latest issue of TFH, there is an article called "The Apistogramma Tank"

The author set up several smaller species only tanks. 15 gallon, but a 20 long would be bery good for this, they don't need high tanks, but the more floor space the better.

You could set up the 20 long, plant it well, and make a few caves, and get one trio, you will love that.
You may need to put a small school of neons, or cardinals to use as dither fish, the apistos can be shy, but in a tank that small you may not need it.

If you decide to so this, Coralife makes a great new plant tank t-5 NO light that is really cheap, just $30 for a 24", that would work great for a 20 long

What I do is get a bag of river rock, the smoothe different colored rocks that are about the size of a silver dollar and maybe 1/2" thick.
I break a "door" into a 4" tera cotta flower pot, and silicone the rocks around the cave for a more natural look, two of those in 20 long at opposite ends, plants in the backround, heavily in the rear corners, some foreground plants, and carpet plant if you like, then leave the center of the tank open for swiming, away you go.

I know what your gonna ask Santa for, an 20 long set up.

My avitar is a Apisto Cacatoides Gold double red. That is a photo of the father of fish for sale on aquabid by a seller who's name slips me right now, but he isn't selling anything right now, when he does I will post his link.

Check these out, these are awsome, I am going to bid
AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website

Here is some panduros from Apistodave
AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website

they are nice, but these are the ones I like alot but have never kept
AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website

these are the ones I currently have from apistodave and I hate to say it, but mine is much nicer then this, but the photo may just not be very god.
AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website

these are really cool, I have never kept them, but plan to
AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website

that is enough for now, I may get to more later


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## Tonka (Mar 20, 2004)

The last breeder I used, Apistoman Ray Caleb, seems no longer in business. 

Goalcreas, I had apisto fever bad a few years ago, but I switched to angels because I cannot be relied upon to squirt thawed frozen or live food down to the apistos every day. I don't know, maybe I just spoild them.

I like using an autofeeder for days or rarely for weeks (when I am traveling), so I am stuck with using dry pellets.

Boy, those apistos look nice....


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## rachpreach (May 23, 2006)

i keep my tank at about 78-80 degrees. The angels and rainbows like it this temp and so do my plants. I guess im not cut out for the warmer water fish.


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## rachpreach (May 23, 2006)

would it hurt my plants if i went up to 82 degrees?


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

*Temperature myths*

Apistogrammas do not NEED such high temperatures. They may act as a trigger to spawning, but often in South American fish a good cold water change does much more for their ardour!

The high temperatures recorded by some people only occur in the dry season when water is rapidly evaporating - i really feel sorry for the discus especially that are subjected to water warm enough to part boil some fish! My fish are all kept at 25oC (76oF, i think!) with an occasionaly rise to 27oC. This especially true for wild, or near wild, fish - some fish are so inbred that high temperatures are used supposedly to ward off certain diseases.

Keep them at normal temperatures and they will do great.


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## rachpreach (May 23, 2006)

oh ok...well im still concerned about them being with angels. I dont want the apistos to not get food since they like to stay toward the bottom. The tank that they would be in is a heavily planted tank with a large piece of driftwood with hiding places underneath. Would they still need rock caves and things like that? What other specific needs come with these fish? I want to know everything before I decide to buy these...


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

As long as there are places to hide, that is fine, if you get more then one female, there should be places for them to claim and they should be about 8 plus inches apart. As long as your tank, as you said is heavily planted, there should be enough places for them to claim / hide.

I have not heard of keeping high temperatures to cure interbreeding problems, but might be true.

If your fish don't look well however my reccomendation would be to turn up the heat, see if it helps, especially if you see signs of ick.


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