# New Member with ?



## rookie (Feb 18, 2006)

Hello my name is Dale, I met Jack Wagner at the fish auction. He recommended me to this club. I am just beginning to learn about planted tanks. So far I have had a 130g tank with adult rainbows, 3 loaches, 5 SAES, 1 shark and 5 black skirt tetras that started the tank 3 years ago. The lights are 36" pc aquas with 2x96 6700 and 2x96 5000 and a strip light with 2 36" NO 6700. I had 2 400 emporers, but just purchased a rena xp3 and removed one emporer. I also bought a 10# co2 tank with a 1000 reactor in line with the output of the fliter. With the emporers my water quality was good 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates 7.0 Ph. The plants were mostly annubius, lace fern and java fern. No water changes were ever done and had DIY co2. Now I have problems. I added vals, riccia, crypt. wendtii, balansae, red tiger lotus, thia banana plant, nasea p., micro sword, java moss, water lettuce, sagittaria, ludwigia and penny wort. My nittrates are suddenly of the chart but everything else is good. My plants are not growing as fast and the vals seem to be dying. I have done a couple of 20% water changes, but the nitrates are still high. What can I do. Also I will be at the meeting to meet everyone.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Welcome Dale!

Did you add any mulm to your new filter when you put it on the tank? That would have provided some additional bacteria and a food source for them once you removed the Emperor. If it is only the nitrates that are high, I wouldn't worry much about it unless they are very high, >100ppm.

You have a lot of light on the tank especially for DIY. It was probably working very well with your plant selection at the time. By adding stem plants you will probably need to start adding some inorganic nitrate (KNO3) and mono potassium phosphate (KH2PO4) to the tank. Low NO3 and PO4 levels in a planted tank are not good and can lead to slow, stunted growth and an increase in algae growth. Suggested levels for NO3 are in the 10-20 ppm range and PO4 levels are best if kept over 2ppm. I know, this sounds backwards to fish keeping but NO3 and PO4 are necessary for the plants to thrive. 

Adding new stem plants and changing the CO2 source to a more stable pressurized system may require the plants to adapt a bit. Your older plants may have slowed a bit and the new plants you just recieved at the swap meet may need a week or two (maybe longer) to get established to your water conditions. During this time, NO3 uptake will slow and you may get higher readings. Some leaves may die off during the transition period. Don't worry about it unless you don't see any new growth after a couple of weeks.

The Nesea pedicellata is a difficult plant to grow even when nutrient and CO2 levels are stable. The Riccia is a good indicator of CO2 and light levels. If you have enough light and CO2 the Riccia (I assume you have it tied to something so that it is submerged) should begin "pearling" within an hour or so of turning the lights on. 

I can't grow Vals in a high light, CO2 injected tank for some reason. Unless you really love them, keep them in your low tech tanks and use come Cryptocoryne retrospiralis or C. crispulata v. balansea as a replacement. These two are much easier to trim and won't leave yo with brownish edges after you trim them. 

Again, welcome and keep asking questions if you need some help


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## rookie (Feb 18, 2006)

The nitrates are over 100ppm. The chart goes to 160ppm and thats were it is. I just this week added some ceramic tubes to the filter and a denitrate pack, but just read if the flow is over 50gph it is useless. I dont own a po4 test kit yet, but do have some liquid fert for phosphorus, potassium and nitrogen. Seems a bit expensive though. Is there a cheaper product? The riccia is tied onto some driftwood and is growing fast and pearling. All my plants pearl when the lights come, but have brown edges or holes in them. The annubius has green algae growth after the new leaves come in and the small annubius seems to curl some of it leaves after a while. Is that a shortage of nutrients?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Sounds like you may be using an AP NO3 kit. I wouldn't rely too much on the results since most kits get pretty inaccurate at the higher levels. Hell, I can't even read most kits once they get above 20ppm or so since the colors are so close together. It is also strange that your water would go from zero to 100+ppm of NO3 in a couple of weeks. Did you do a lot of substrate stirring when you planted the new plants?

There are dry forms of NO3 and PO4 along with most other chemicals at: http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp We (SWOAPE) did a group order for some ferts a few months ago and we have some extra KNO3 and KH2PO4 we can sell you. The price would be what we paid for them, including the shipping. I can give you anywhere from 1/4lb of each to a full pound, depending on how much you want to try. I can give you some fert recommendations also.

If you would prefer to order the stuff yourself, you would want Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) and Plantex CSM+B. Plantex supplies micro nutrients but is the most expensive of the three items. We (SWOAPE) do not have any extra CSM+B at this time so let me know if you plan on ordering some. I need some and I think another club member does also. Notice that both Potassium Nitrate and Mono Potassium Phosphae provide Potassium. Greg Sells Potassium Phosphate also but if you need some, I have about three pounds and would gladly sell you a pound since I don't use it 

Holes in leaves, expecially slower growers like Anubias, is generally due to a shortage of potassium (K). Were you adding any K to the tank before? Fish food and waste usually don't supply much in the way of K, especially in high light tanks. The brown edges may be due to a NO3 deficiency but deficiencies should show up on other plants first since Anubias is such a slow grower! If you can take a pic of the plants that would probably help 

If your fish are showing signs of stress, you may want to do a small (10-20-%) water change each day for the next couple of days. Avoid a big water change since you haven't done them on this tank. The fish may stress more from that than the high NO3 levels. The plants would benefit from some phosphorous and if they are deficient in PO4 the additon of it will cause them to increase their intake of NO3. An increase in K will do the same for the NO3 levels. Plants are much greater at removing NO3 and PO4 from the water than any chemical means. It will not be fast though. My tanks uses about 2ppm of NO3 per day. Some have been reported their tanks to use up to 5ppm per day, but this is a lot!

I hope I didn't confuse you with anything. If I did, just ask for more clarification!


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## rookie (Feb 18, 2006)

I will take any ferts that you have. I am starting another 30 gal tank for extra plants, shrimp and tertas that I cant keep with the rainbows. How much are the ferts per pound? I live in Greenhills almost next to Johnnys Toys. If someone had the time maybe they would take a look at my tank before or after the meeting. Its only a couple of minutes from Winton woods or BW3's. I could use the help and advise.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

rookie said:


> I am starting another 30 gal tank for extra plants, shrimp and tertas that I cant keep with the rainbows.


You are so done  I started out this way too. Next thing I know I have 4 high light tanks for my clippings and cuttings and a low light tank for the shrimp :exclaim:



rookie said:


> How much are the ferts per pound?


KNO3 is $4 per pound and KH2PO4 is $4.80 per pound once we add in the shipping from Greg to us. A pound of KNO3 will probably last about a year with your tanks and a pound of KH2PO4 will last several years!



rookie said:


> I live in Greenhills almost next to Johnnys Toys. If someone had the time maybe they would take a look at my tank before or after the meeting. Its only a couple of minutes from Winton woods or BW3's. I could use the help and advise.


I won't be this month's SWOAPE or GCAS meeting but I would be willing to drop by some other time and lend a hand if no one else can make it by your place!


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## rookie (Feb 18, 2006)

I'll take a pound of each and will split some CSM+B when you order it. I probably will get more tanks. I have been breeding reptiles for a while and bulit a room for them with custom cages, but have sold almost all of them. What kind of use can I have for an empty room:[smilie=d: Do most shrimp need low light?


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I'm will wait a bit on a Greg Watson order until I see if anyone else needs anything. They probably won't so I will order 2 pounds of CSM+B from Greg and we can split the costs if that sounds good to you. If anyone else does need anything, let me know so I can include it in the order!

Shrimp don't need low light, they will do just fine in a high lihgt tank. I just put them in a 10g to breed last spring. I didn't want to do DIY CO2 on this tank and I definately didn't want to set up a pressurized system for it! I don't really like the 10g size for a planted tank due to it's small size. It's just too hard for me to get my hands and arms in small tanks to do maintenance  

You extra room sounds like the perfect place for a fish room or should I say Plant Room


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## steel1212 (Feb 21, 2006)

I would be interested in a round of dry ferts to try as well.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I ordered the dry ferts from Greg yesterday and they shipped today  Dale wanted to split the CSM+B with me maybe he will be willing to split the stuff he is getting with you since you two know each other


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## steel1212 (Feb 21, 2006)

Thats ok I just ordered some for myself and a 2 liter of excel. All that from diffrent places and it should last me a lot longer than the seachem stuff!


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

If you need help figuring out dosing on the dry stuff, let us know and we will be glad to help


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## Simpte 27 (Jul 16, 2004)

Welcome to the forums and the wonderful addiction of planted aquaria!!! I am the member everyone types to but few have seen  I have some extra KH2po4 and k2so4 if anyone needs it. I rarely dose k2so4 (I think once in a year).


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