# going pressurized this weekend!



## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

I am picking up a 5lb alluminum tank and a 2 guage regulator on Saturday. I hope I can find a place to get the needle and check valve locally (any suggetsions as to who would have it). I have a ladder diffuser that I will use for the time being.

Any pointers or info that i may need will be appreciated/


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## Abe Froman (Mar 27, 2006)

What are you using for filtration and how much surface agitation are you getting?

If you are using a canister then I would really look into making/buying a co2 reactor to go inline with the filter. Watch your fish for signs of stress or low oxygen in the dark period. On my tank without much surface agitation I run a bubbler at night to keep O2 levels from dropping too low. I had an episode where I lost alot of fish to lack of oxygen with the lights off and the survivors were all at the surface gasping for air. Now I just randomly check my tanks with the lights off to look for anyone near the surface.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

This is not really an issue and can be avoided by either using a controller (but that is not cheap) or simply having the CO2 on only during your light period...


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## Abe Froman (Mar 27, 2006)

Laith said:


> This is not really an issue and can be avoided by either using a controller (but that is not cheap) or simply having the CO2 on only during your light period...


Can you explain please? I can understand how turning CO2 off at night might help prevent a ph drop, but I don't understand what it has to do with the amount of oxygen in the water.


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## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

I don't know if this answers your question Abe, but fish breath oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. You fill the water with co2 without any oxygen being produced (because the plants arn't photosynthensizing), and it's the same effect as putting a plastic bag over your head.

I have a fulval 304, which I've heard you can't use to inject co2 with. i am thinking about going inline, however, I don't know yet. I would like to do something that invlves less stuff in my tank, so which ever does that and still injects co2 well, I'm good with.


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## Abe Froman (Mar 27, 2006)

Lauren, I understand about the fish respiration. What I didn't understand was Laith's comment that turning off CO2 at night will help keep the O2 levels up. At night both the fish and plants are using O2 which is why I was just trying to point out that its important to make sure you have some sort of surface agitation (be it filter or airstone) to keep the oxygen levels from dropping. When I started injecting CO2 my plant growth really took off and I had my filter spray bar submerged and pointing down which was ok during the day, but cost me alot of fish at night.

I have my reactor on my filter return so that I dont have to worry about bubbles causing problems in the pump. Haven't used a Fluval 304 though so I don't know if the backpressure from the reactor would cause a problem. I also hate having equipment in the tank and my 60 only has the overflow and spraybar inside it now. 

Sorry if I hijacked your thread.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Lauren,
The check valve isn't a 100% need, IMO. But there's no reason I can see to not use an inexpensive check valve for the time being. Marine Depot has some, including higher level like this one. Expensive, but high quality. And they do have will-call. Maybe someone else can point to another store that has something comparable. Maybe even a beer place, but I'm not sure. Maybe Paintball places?

For an inline reactor, maybe Gomer has a spare DIY he's willing to sell you. I know he made a bunch a while back...

The fluval might handle CO2 for a while, but I wouldn't risk it. I think there is too much risk of breaking the seal (which I had a problem with).

As for CO2 off at night...turning it off will keep from saturating the water with CO2. Just because there is oxygen in there, doesn't mean there isn't too much CO2. Or the O2 could be displaced. But it certainly helps reduce the chances of problems.


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## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks for info Mike, I've read a lot of the online information, but I still don't know much about what I'm doing. I understand the basics, and I think I can hook it up alright, but I don't know the finer things yet. Of course, I do not know what level I will need to have it on, that I will have to figure out myself. If someone could let me in on a good starting point (ie how many bubbles per second) that would help me out. 

I was thinking about getting a double gauge regulator, but I'm not sure if I should spend the extra money. Any opinions? As for shutting it off at night, I would like to do this, since I do have a canister filter, so surface agitation, while there, is not drastic. If I could rig it to turn off on it's own, that would be absolutely splendid, I know there is a way to do this, I just don't know how. 

As for ways to diffuse the bubbles, like I said, I want stuff off the back of my tank. The ladder is not fulfilling that goal right now, but I don't want to replace it with something just as bulky. I'm afraid that an inline reactor will be more of an eyesore than my ladder. Or I'd have to just work harder to make the plants hide it. I want something that will work well, but I don't understand which method of diffusing works better than others. I'm sure it is all trade off. 

There is also a big space issue here. The tank is narrow and tall, as is the stand. My fuval takes up most of the space under the tank. I am not even going to attempt to put the Co2 under there. Instead, I am going to bolt it down on one of the outside sides of the stand. To keep things simple, I can’t have a bunch of stuff going on on the tank itself. It will JUST fit on the side of the stand, and I don’t have the room (and I don’t want to deal with the eye sore) of any more tubes and hoses than I need. I want to get the set up that is best for me, but hopefully not at the sacrifice of too much look for my tank. Actually, with the regulator, I may have to put this on the wall and not the tank at all. 

There is also the issue of lighting. I want to upgrade from my 130w florescent unit to a 198w MH unit. I have been reading up on MH, and I think that because it is so difficult to put units on the tank due to its shape, and that the opening is right in the middle, a hanging unit will be the easiest to deal with. Also, it is difficult to get high watts bulbs short enough to go over the tank, I need bulbs that are 21’’. I can afford to do both the Co2 system and the lights right now, however, I would prefer to stagger the big purchases by at least a week, just for my own sanity. Do you think I will have problems with the Co2 and the inadequate lights? Or is it a good idea to get the Co2 down before I add the lights? My DIY Co2 hasn’t been working right since it crashed two weeks ago, and now the algae is taking over. I need to fix the imbalance soon before I start losing plants. 

These are all of the questions I can think of right now. 

Abe: water is made up of different elements, compounds, and chemicals, correct? All of these ingredients must equal 100%. If you increase one, the others will automatically decrease. So by adding more Co2, you are decreasing the other ingredients present in the water, including (and most importantly) oxygen. That is why your fish can have breathing issues at night if there is too much Co2.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Adding CO2 will not force out O2. Its hard to explain but the two gases are technically independant of each other. Turning off the CO2 at nigh tis good though as 1) the fish can tolerate higher CO2 with higher O2 2) its wateful and does nothing.

Some surface movement will be sufficient for O2 gas exchange at the water's surface during the night (unless youhave a tight fitting hood). I found through trial and error what works best for me but have as much surface movement, even waves, as possible without getting whitecaps or breaking the surface.

As for a bubble rate, start with about 1 bubble/second per 20 gallons and observe closely.

I have a reactor I could sell you, it would be a fundraiser for NEAPS, but personally I have switched to the ceramic, intank diffuser and am very pleased.


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## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

I like the looks of the ceramic diffuser a lot. But I'm having trouble finding them online, I dont' know which one would be best for my tank.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Lauren said:


> If someone could let me in on a good starting point (ie how many bubbles per second) that would help me out.


Start at a bubble per second. Watch the fish. Let it go for a couple hours while watching the fish. Gotta wait because an inefficient reactor (like the bubble ladder) will take a long time to reach the max CO2 level. If the fish are still happy, up the bubble count 1/2 to 1 bubble per second and repeat.



Lauren said:


> I was thinking about getting a double gauge regulator, but I'm not sure if I should spend the extra money. Any opinions?


The only advantage to getting the double reg is seeing what pressure is inside the tank. This can be a clue you're getting to the end of the tank 



Lauren said:


> As for shutting it off at night, I would like to do this, since I do have a canister filter, so surface agitation, while there, is not drastic. If I could rig it to turn off on it's own, that would be absolutely splendid, I know there is a way to do this, I just don't know how.


A solenoid is about all you've got for automatic shut off. This can be added to a non-aquatic regulator without too much effort.



Lauren said:


> As for ways to diffuse the bubbles, like I said, I want stuff off the back of my tank. The ladder is not fulfilling that goal right now, but I don't want to replace it with something just as bulky. I'm afraid that an inline reactor will be more of an eyesore than my ladder. Or I'd have to just work harder to make the plants hide it. I want something that will work well, but I don't understand which method of diffusing works better than others. I'm sure it is all trade off.


One of the glass diffusors from AquaticMagic would be a decent look inside the tank. But then you'd have the tubing going into it. Yes, an external reactor can be an eyesore. Which one can you live with more?



Lauren said:


> There is also a big space issue here. The tank is narrow and tall, as is the stand. My fuval takes up most of the space under the tank. I am not even going to attempt to put the Co2 under there. Instead, I am going to bolt it down on one of the outside sides of the stand. To keep things simple, I can't have a bunch of stuff going on on the tank itself. It will JUST fit on the side of the stand, and I don't have the room (and I don't want to deal with the eye sore) of any more tubes and hoses than I need. I want to get the set up that is best for me, but hopefully not at the sacrifice of too much look for my tank. Actually, with the regulator, I may have to put this on the wall and not the tank at all.


There have been a few discussions on mounting the tank. There were a few strap options that were quite simple and effective. You'd have to search for the thread (or I might tomorrow when I have more desire).



Lauren said:


> There is also the issue of lighting. I want to upgrade from my 130w florescent unit to a 198w MH unit. I have been reading up on MH, and I think that because it is so difficult to put units on the tank due to its shape, and that the opening is right in the middle, a hanging unit will be the easiest to deal with. Also, it is difficult to get high watts bulbs short enough to go over the tank, I need bulbs that are 21''. I can afford to do both the Co2 system and the lights right now, however, I would prefer to stagger the big purchases by at least a week, just for my own sanity. Do you think I will have problems with the Co2 and the inadequate lights? Or is it a good idea to get the Co2 down before I add the lights? My DIY Co2 hasn't been working right since it crashed two weeks ago, and now the algae is taking over. I need to fix the imbalance soon before I start losing plants.
> 
> These are all of the questions I can think of right now.


Going to MH will probably improve things over all. But there is no reason to wait on the CO2. Even with the lower light you'll see improvement. You'll also be able to learn how your tank and inhabitants respond to CO2 levels.



Lauren said:


> Abe: water is made up of different elements, compounds, and chemicals, correct? All of these ingredients must equal 100%. If you increase one, the others will automatically decrease. So by adding more Co2, you are decreasing the other ingredients present in the water, including (and most importantly) oxygen. That is why your fish can have breathing issues at night if there is too much Co2.


This one is mostly true. It IS possible for CO2 concentration to go up with out O2 going down. Something about solubility in water IIRC.


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## Abe Froman (Mar 27, 2006)

> Abe: water is made up of different elements, compounds, and chemicals, correct? All of these ingredients must equal 100%. If you increase one, the others will automatically decrease. So by adding more Co2, you are decreasing the other ingredients present in the water, including (and most importantly) oxygen. That is why your fish can have breathing issues at night if there is too much Co2.


Not exactly. Adding CO2 does not force O2 out of the water which is the point I was trying to make to Laith. Like I said, apologies for hijacking your thread.



> I was thinking about getting a double gauge regulator, but I'm not sure if I should spend the extra money. Any opinions? As for shutting it off at night, I would like to do this, since I do have a canister filter, so surface agitation, while there, is not drastic. If I could rig it to turn off on it's own, that would be absolutely splendid, I know there is a way to do this, I just don't know how.


AFAIK you will need a solenoid to automate turning it off and on. Not sure what the price difference would be, but I use the milwaukee regulator MA957  Link . It has a low pressure gauge and then a needle valve with bubble counter for fine tuning. You can hook the solenoid up to a standard timer to turn it on and off with your lights.


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## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

Mike, I read somewhere else that the PSI on the tank will drop as the tank gets near the end as well. Is that not true?

There is so much modification you can do to these things, reminds me of buying suspension for a car. I think I'll go with a standard system right now, with just a tank and a regulator and the ladder, and I'll modify from there once I get the hang of the system. I think I will probably go with a glass diffuser and a solenoid controller when I can. I would love for it to be determined by the PH. But Automated Aquarium Systems wants 99 for the PH controller, and 45 for the solenoid on their website, I know it can be found cheaper, but that is a project for another day. 

So, can I find a needle valve anywhere other than online? might the beverage supply place I'm getting the Co2 from have one?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Abe Froman said:


> Can you explain please? I can understand how turning CO2 off at night might help prevent a ph drop, but I don't understand what it has to do with the amount of oxygen in the water.


Sorry wasn't too clear. The point I was trying to make (badly  ) was that fish gasping at the surface is not necessarily a sign of low O2, especially in a CO2 injected tank. If the CO2 levels get too high in the water, fish have a problem expelling CO2 from their bodies and out the gills because of the small CO2 partial pressure difference. The fish head for the surface. This can happen even if there is more than enough O2.

And if you inject CO2 without a controller or without turning it off when the lights are off, the plants no longer use up CO2 so the CO2 levels can go up significantly. Yes, aeration will help offgas excess CO2 but I find it better to use a controller or turn off the CO2; I hate the look and noise of aerators (pet peeve!  ).

And in a well planted healthy tank, especially one with good lighting and CO2 injection, a lack of O2 usually indicates a fish overstocking problem, a bacteria overload (using up O2) or a bizarre tank shape with a very low surface area to tank volume ratio (tall hex tanks come to mind). Keep in mind that by the time the lights go off, the aquarium water is saturated with O2, hence pearling.

I have never had a lack of O2 in planted tanks.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Lauren said:


> Mike, I read somewhere else that the PSI on the tank will drop as the tank gets near the end as well. Is that not true?


Yep...it's true. Eventually there will be enough of the liquid CO2 used up that all you'll have is gas left in the tank. When that happens, you'll see the pressure drop off relatively rapidly. How fast? I don't know. I run a pH controller/solenoid as a precaution against the end of tank dump. Shouldn't be a problem if you make it a habit to check CO2 regularly (every day or two).



Lauren said:


> But Automated Aquarium Systems wants 99 for the PH controller, and 45 for the solenoid on their website, I know it can be found cheaper, but that is a project for another day.


Yep, there are a number of options out there. www.rexgrigg.com/sale.html is one source for a little less on the solenoid. Search around and I'm sure you can get the SMS 122 for less than $99.



Lauren said:


> So, can I find a needle valve anywhere other than online? might the beverage supply place I'm getting the Co2 from have one?


Yes. Go to clippard.com and look for local suppliers. I think there might be one in OC somewhere.

There are a couple other brands that will work as well.


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## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

the closest one on clippard is in Costa Mesa, that is pretty far. I'd love to find one closer. I've been searching for them, but I can't even figure out who would use them for me to be able to search for shops that tailor to that industry. I can find stuff for gardening, but that won't work.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

There are a couple others that will do as well as Clippard. Can't remember them off hand


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## Lauren (Mar 18, 2006)

Carl let me know about a used set up for sale from Ocean Blue. I'm going to pick that up tomorrow, I'll be saving between 50-70 bucks! he has the check valve, but not the needle valve, however, maybe he'll know where I can get one.


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