# major deficiencies :(



## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

As you can see from the attatched pics, i am having some problems. It appears to be light colored leaves, curved leaves and stunted growth. This all started about a month ago. First it was the nesaea, it stopped growing. Then the rotala, the main growth stems stopped, followed by new shoots that were yellow and eventually turned into oily patched looking leaves. I contributed this to 0 nitrates at the time. At this time, a handful of stem of the rotala seem to be recovering, but 80% of it is not doing well. The E. tennellus is still growing, but as you can see, the leaves appear to be iron deficient. The Downoi has not really grown at all, even when every other plant was doing fine, it was actually doing better in a tank before without co2 and ferts. The Cabomba growth has slowed, coloration has dissapeared and some leaves are turning wavy. Also, there is algae problem, probably due to the lack of plant growth.

Tank specs-
29 gallon
ph- kept at 6.5 with co2 injection
gh-14dgh
kh- 6dkh
ammonia- 0
nitrite- 0
nitrate- 10-20ppm
phosphate- 1ppm

lighting is 96 watts of t5( i know this may be overkill but plants were growing fine before without algae)
-2 6700k
-1 10000k
-1 roseate

substrate is 100% flourite

Co2 is is thru a pressurized 10lb tank with a milwaukee controler

Fertilizers-
1 ppm of PO4 daily
3 ml flourish comp twice weekly
1/4 tsp KSO4 three times a week
.2 ppm iron daily.
Nitrate is only added occasionaly

I have read all about plant deficiencies and toxicities. I suspect iron and boron and possibly Mn to be a problem. Maybee potassium OD, i dont know

I have attatched some pics and i really need your guys help! Its kinda embarassing, i thought i could figure this out myself but its been a month, and i just want my plants to be healthy. Thank you all in advance!


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

more pics and a few other things,

The flourite is 5 years old. I have been injecting co2 for the past two months and i fear that the substarte is weak. I have flourish tabs to add if this will help re-fertilize it

I dose at 5 in the morning as i work all day, every day. The tank lights come on at 11 am and turn off at 8. I get home at 6 at night. Is this too early to fertilize or my best bet? I can only fertilize when the lights come on sundays

Phosphorus is dosed at night when i get home and iron is dosed in the morning, in hopes that the two do not combine


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Cupped leaves is typically calcium deficiency, that should come from your tap water. Are you doing weekly water changes? Or using RO water without reconstituting it?

You need a 10:1 ratio of nitrates to phosphates. If you're dosing phosphates daily and nitrates "occasionally", then that's why you're getting algae. Until you have lots of plant growth you may not need to dose phosphates at all. 

Are you getting pearling on the plants? Is there water circulation to move the co2 and ferts around the tank? What is the ph before co2? May need to buffer it up to get enough co2 in.

I dose potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate and csm+b trace elements. I use RO water and reconstitute it with calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate and baking soda. I don't dose kso4 or iron chelate. 

Michael


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## Dielectric (Oct 7, 2008)

I think Macfan is right, it might be calcium.


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

MacFan said:


> Cupped leaves is typically calcium deficiency, that should come from your tap water. Are you doing weekly water changes? Or using RO water without reconstituting it?
> 
> You need a 10:1 ratio of nitrates to phosphates. If you're dosing phosphates daily and nitrates "occasionally", then that's why you're getting algae. Until you have lots of plant growth you may not need to dose phosphates at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the quick reply Michael.
I do 40% weekly water changes. The tap water itself is ph 7.4, with gh and kh being the same as my aquariums(14 gh, 6 kh). Im assuming the high level of gh has to have some calcium in.............i hope
-No pearling, i was getting some a couple of months back.
-I add seachems acid buffer before i add the water change water to the aquarium as its almost a 1 change(6.5 vs. 7.4) is this a problem? Come to think of it, it seems like things were good when i didnt do this, im afraid it may be a shock to the fish though.
-Water circulation is with a rena XP1


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

I could just smack myself! :fish: I went to seachems website and researched acid regulator. It percipitates calcium and magnesium  grrrrrrr.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AcidRegulator.html


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

If you are using co2 to lower ph, you don't need the acid. I used to use a controller and dose to a target, but I learned that isn't necessary. Now I turn co2 on 1hr before lights come on and off 1hr before lights go off. I dose as much as possible without it accumulating too much in the reactor. 

Generally, I wouldn't modify water unless you have to. Fish like consistency, so as long as tap is within range for your fish, just go with it. If will vary with the co2 injection but it's ok, it does in the wild too. 

I dont see Pearling unless I turn off my filters and powerheads. 

Are you testing your water for those levels or just dosing for your 1ppm of phosphates? I dont recommend ongoing testing, but it helps to test your tap water or get a city test report. Some tap has phosphates in it. And decay of plants and waste will create more. You might try not dosing any for a bit. Excess phosphates is the quickest way to green algaes. 

I have a deficiency/excess chart at home I can look at later. It's also possible it's too much of something causing the cupping. 

One key I learned, measure your tanks (gravel surface to fill line) and use a tank volume calculator to find out how much water it actually holds. I find it's 2/3 of the advertised amount. Dose based on that and it's far easier to keep things in balance. 

Michael


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

MacFan said:


> If you are using co2 to lower ph, you don't need the acid. I used to use a controller and dose to a target, but I learned that isn't necessary. Now I turn co2 on 1hr before lights come on and off 1hr before lights go off. I dose as much as possible without it accumulating too much in the reactor.
> 
> Generally, I wouldn't modify water unless you have to. Fish like consistency, so as long as tap is within range for your fish, just go with it. If will vary with the co2 injection but it's ok, it does in the wild too.
> 
> ...


-well, i just changed some water, about a third, i didnt add any of the calcium/magnesium percipitating acid regulator
-I wont add any more phosphorous for a while even though the tap has 0ppm, maybe once or twice a week.
-also, the phosporus level dies back fast in my tank, 1ppm goes away pretty fast, probably algae and bacteria absorbing it

soooo, i guess ill see how the plants recover over the next week, hopefully they will recover without adding acid buffer, since it DOES percipitate calcium and magnesium.
im out for the night, ill get back on at breaktime at work
thanks again


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## ValorG (Dec 23, 2007)

Well if thats not enough to fix your calc problem like me and have to buy the ferts, get calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate (epsom salt buy at cvs)


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Here is the incredibly useful nutrient map I mentioned earlier:
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/aqua/fertilizers/map.htm

Testing phosphates is difficult, it takes a long time to get a reading (4min I think my kit required) and is still hard to get consistent accurate results in my experience.

Based on my tanks, I would dose:
3X / week
1/16th tsp Potassium Nitrate
1/64th tsp Mono Potassium Phosphate

3X / week on opposite days from above
1/64th tsp CSM+B

7th day do a 50% water change.

If using RO water, I'd put in 3/4tsp Calcium Chloride (sidewalk de-icer, 77% pure), 3/4tsp baking soda, 1/4tsp Magnesium Sulfate (epsom salts.) This would get somewhere around 4GH/4KH.

(If you look in kitchen stores, you can find pinch, dash, etc. tiny measuring spoons. I got a set of 4 that I added to my set of regular spoons. The regular spoons went down to 1/8th, but that's rare. The small set I got started at 1/8 and went down from there. That's how I get the small measurements.)

Michael


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

ill wait things out for a couple of weeks without using the acid buffer, see if the calcium deficiences go away. I just think that there should be enough in already with my hard water


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## THE_MOTHER_JEWELS (Feb 10, 2011)

Your water is plenty hard. The plants would *really* have to_ grow_ in order to produce a deficiency
-:-k NO?

Just to re-direct. 
You do not routinely add N and yet there is 'a-plenty to be had in there.

Why ?

Sounds like your filter has become septic.
Take out 100% of the foam and 50% of whatever else in there. Re-start.

You are doing everything right - and yet there is nothing happening.
You have recognized the stall, now to avoid the tailspin.
What have you to lose?


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Wait, I think he identified the problem as his acid buffer precipitating the calcium and magnesium from the water. That caused the deficiency. Filter bacteria will break the ammonia down to nitrite and then to nitrate, which is normal and expected. Though he wasn't adding much, the plants weren't consuming much without the calcium they required being available. It would be bad to mess with the bacteria, it's critical to a stable tank.


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## anubias6439 (Sep 7, 2010)

I have three tanks, one being a loach species tank with just a few anubias and some floating anacharis. My Nitrates will rise over the course of time. That does not mean my filter is septic. These loaches have been thriving for 7 years, and counting  they are heavy and messy eaters. also, there is a lonely silver hatchetfish in there that is about 7 years old, he wont die. I clean all of my filters, no matter which tank, every three to four weeks. The tank we are talking about in this thread, had its filter cleaned 2 weeks ago. Im def not going to go ahead and clean the filter. 10 -20 ppm of nitrate is acceptable for me and this level lowers when the plants arent showing deficiencies. 
-just to clarify, when i said i occasionly add nitrates, i do so when needed. When the plants are growing without problems, the sucked up all the nitrates and i dosed with a solution of KNO3 that raises 25 gallons of water to 5ppm NO4. I believed i dosed this two or three times a week to keep my levels at 10ppm, without algae i might add. I have plenty of rainbows and a nice school of orange von rio tetras to add nitrogen all by themselves.
-On a happy note, i tested my water today, KH has been restored to 5, and gh to 8. And i swear, the rotala has shown improvement overnight, not majorly, but a tiny bit. This is good. By next week this time i will know for sure, i hope. I will also do my routine water change on monday. I added 3ml of flourish comp today since i did a water change last night.
Thanks again!


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