# ADA Aqusoil - Tank Ridiculously Cloudy even after 8 hours with the filter



## DGalt

Yesterday I changed my substrate from Schultz Aquatic Soil to ADA Aquasoil. 

I was very careful filling the tank (pouring water slowly onto a plate), but that didn't seem to make a bit of difference. The tank got insanely cloudy (i.e. I couldn't see more than maybe 1/2 inch into the tank). 

After running my filter over night there hasn't been any change. I still can't see beyond maybe the first 1/2 inch of water. 

The filter is a HOB with filter floss in it. I don't know if it's making matters better or worse (can't actually see whether or not the outflow is directly hitting the substrate or not). 

I'm going to try some large water changes later today, but I'm just a little concerned since I've seen a whole bunch of people's pictures right after they filled their tank and they weren't even remotely close to being this cloudy.


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## Avi

When I tried that same substrate, I had the very same experience. It was so cloudy that I literally couldn't see into the tank. I went to the fish store where I had purchased it and they assured me that the problem would resolve itself "quickly" and suggested that I do a water change. I did that...a number of times...and despite that and running two Eheim 2217s (on a 58-gallon tank) the cloudiness wouldn't abate at all. It was as if the substrate continued to leach the same silty residue into the tank and that wouldn't stop. After a month of listening to the advice and assurance given to me at the fish store...and no reduction at all in the cloudiness that this substrate generated...I replaced the it with EcoComplete which has served me well and without any problems at all.


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## Navarro

Did you try to rinse it?


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## DVS Moss

Navarro said:


> Did you try to rinse it?


ur not suppose to rinse ADA aqua soil, says right on the bag.

50% water changes everyday will help get rid of the cloudiness.


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## DGalt

yeah, I did probably what amounted to a 500% water change today. It's still cloudy but that's partly because once I could see into the tank (after about the 400% wc) I noticed some stuff had gotten knocked around so I had to do some fixing

figure a couple of days of 50%-100% will clear it up. 

still...rather annoying


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## davemonkey

Was this Amazonia II? I know of a couple folks here who had Amazonia II break down on them quickly like this.


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## houseofcards

DVS Moss said:


> ur not suppose to rinse ADA aqua soil, says right on the bag.
> 
> 50% water changes everyday will help get rid of the cloudiness.


Actually I think Navarro was asking if dgalt rinsed it which would have caused the cloudiness. I've setup at least 10 ADA AS-based tanks and I've never had the cloudy issue. As long as you don't move the AS around it's usually not an issue.


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## Avi

This isn't the first thread in forums that has discussed a clarity issue with it. I think it's fair to say that in light of the positive results that many people have with it, it may well be a good choice of substrates. On the other hand, there are enough examples of clarity issues that are so serious as to make this substrate very problematic when it does occur. It's more than likely a "batch issue," and when you get a bad batch, it is something that has to be addressed with a replacement with another batch...or a different substrate. In my case, after what I went through with it, I just wanted another product because it set my plan for my planted tank back by over a month.


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## DGalt

my biggest concern right now is that my filter isn't helping at all, and is actually making it worse. the outflow isn't hitting the substrate, though, so i don't know exactly why it's stirring it up even more. i think i'm going to get a canister filter and see if that makes a difference (been meaning to get one anyway, this just gives me an excuse to).


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## Avi

Hehe...well, good luck and I'm curious to see if a canister helps in your case...I had the two Eheims working full time and they made no difference at all. I'd suggest that you go back to the store where you bought it and get a replacement rather than waste time with this substrate that's showing such stubborness.


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## kimcadmus

I had this issue with some aquasoil as well but it was used. I used a H.O.T. Magnum and charged it as a DE filter to clear it up. It worked overnight on one 20g tank and took 2-3 days on a 75g (i had to clean and recharge it each day on this large tank.I found that my eheims were unable to filter out the super fine particles, they would eventually settle on the substrate and plants and I would have to dust them off and ended up with the same cloudyness. 

The DE filter solved the issue. There are a number of brands and some LFS stores will loan or rent one to you.

Good Luck,


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## Navarro

At list once a month I set up a planted tank with Amazonia never ever have had any problems, so it could be a bad batch indeed.
Cheers,
Luis


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## DGalt

kimcadmus said:


> I had this issue with some aquasoil as well but it was used. I used a H.O.T. Magnum and charged it as a DE filter to clear it up. It worked overnight on one 20g tank and took 2-3 days on a 75g (i had to clean and recharge it each day on this large tank.I found that my eheims were unable to filter out the super fine particles, they would eventually settle on the substrate and plants and I would have to dust them off and ended up with the same cloudyness.
> 
> The DE filter solved the issue. There are a number of brands and some LFS stores will loan or rent one to you.
> 
> Good Luck,


What do you mean "charged it as a DE filter"?

Unfortunately none of the stores around me carry Aquasoil so I had to order it online (yay shipping charges). Hence why I'm reluctant to send it back.


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## Bunbuku

Is your water really hard? This may also contribute to the cloudiness issue. That us why they came up with Amazonia II, but then people (myself included) have found that it tends to disintegrate over 4-5 months. OTOH I have never had issues is Amazonia original.

Here is a link about Amazonia II and the cloudy water issue http://www.adgshop.com/Aqua_Soil_Amazonia_II_p/104-020.htm


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## DGalt

Several people have suggested this. I unfortunately do not have a water hardness kit, so I don't know. However, I live in Connecticut, which to the bit of research I did seems to generally have soft water.


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## Avi

I can only say that the water in my tank is not hard, and I still had the problem that DGalt is experiencing.


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## DGalt

Well Jeff Senske at ADG seems to think the issue I'm having is rooted in my filtration system. I seem to doubt that, but since I already have a canister filter coming I guess I'll just wait and see what happens before I do anything else drastic.

barring me screwing up the GH/KH test (directions really aren't all that clear, especially since I never really saw the yellow / orange), my degree dKH is 5 and the ppm KH/GH is 89.5. That falls into the soft water range from my understanding. My pH is about 6.4.

So i don't know. I turned off my filter and did a big enough water change so that the water is clear. I'm going to leave the filter off and see if the cloudiness comes back on its own (meaning it has nothing to do with my filtration) or if it stays away (meaning it might be a result of my filter, although I still can't think of how or why).

we'll see what happens :-k


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## Avi

Maybe you're all right....when I did major league water changes...it clouded up after literally minutes.


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## DGalt

No it's definitely not doing that. It's still pretty clear now (I didn't do enough of a water change to completely clear the water, but its about the same clearness as before), about 2 hours later. So maybe he's right. Now I need to figure out why. 

Anyone have any ideas? 

AC 50, outflow is not hitting the substrate in any way shape or form. The thing is, the poly fill is definitely catching some of the debris. So I don't know why or how the filter is making the clarity worse

I'd like to figure this out before my canister arrives so I set it up in such a way as to avoid this issue


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## Natalia

This is very puzzling problem. I have 4 tanks with Aquasoil (ASII and AS Africana) and never had any cloudy issues. My theory is that when your water comes in contact with AS something precipitates out of the water probably because of a sudden drop in pH/GH/KH that AS initially creates. With more water changes pH/GH/KH should stabilize and cloudiness should go away. If you are using the old filter this may create a similar problem. Another possibility is a bacterial bloom, but this would take some time to develop and so is not likely in your case.

Even if your cloudy issues seem to be resolving you may want to check your water further. Make sure the water does not go through a water softener. This will add NaCl and may harm your plants/ fish.


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## DGalt

So the filter is definitely the issue (or at least contributing to it). Tank is still about the same clarity, maybe a little bit worse, than it was last night when I did the water change and took off the filter. 

I don't know about a rapid pH / kH shift. Don't even know how I would test for that. 

I think there is a bacterial bloom going on as well since the tank does have some of that milky white coloration now, but not much of the brown color that I had when the filter was on the tank. 

Hopefully adding the canister will solve the issue. 

If anyone can think of why having a HOB filter on the tank would cause such clouding please enlighten me


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## Natalia

If the cloudiness comes from a reaction between your water and the soil, then both HOB and canister will make your water cloudy because they both will mix the water in the tank. It is not cloudy now because the water does not move. To check for a possible pH/KH drop, first measure your tap water and then the water from the tank (try to take it from the bottom part near the soil). The difference will tell you what is going on. Was this a used HOB filter or the new one? If something wrong was in the HOB filter then your problem will be resolved by switching to a canister.


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## Avi

I am trying to understand this...Is someone concluding that a HOB filter running on a tank with substrate in it (which is on the bottom of the tank, as substrate would be) and there is a daunting and unusually stubborn cloudiness in the tank...and...the HOB filter is at fault? Everything that I've learned keeping planted tanks for many, many years tells me that it isn't the HOB filter's fault at all and it's solely some characteristic of the substrate that is responsible. That may, or may not, resolve itself in time.


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## DGalt

Natalia said:


> If the cloudiness comes from a reaction between your water and the soil, then both HOB and canister will make your water cloudy because they both will mix the water in the tank. It is not cloudy now because the water does not move. To check for a possible pH/KH drop, first measure your tap water and then the water from the tank (try to take it from the bottom part near the soil). The difference will tell you what is going on. Was this a used HOB filter or the new one? If something wrong was in the HOB filter then your problem will be resolved by switching to a canister.


The thing is, I've done such large water changes that there isn't much in terms of pure "tank water" in there. The readings I posted yesterday were right after I had done about a 100% (maybe more) wc. This is true of each of the times I did a water change, restarted the filter, and then had cloudiness within 8-12 hours (at the very maximum). Also, it would be hard for me to believe that there were varying levels of water in the tank that were somehow not getting mixed in together. On top of the HOB filter I have a small underwater filter that is only about 3 inches above the substrate, pointing perpendicular to the outflow of the HOB. That filter is currently in the tank even though the HOB isn't, so it's not like there isn't any current in there right now. I just can't rationalize there being a mixing effect between two such largely different water supplies that it is causing that clarity issues.

The HOB is used, it's what I've had on my tank for the last year or so. I thoroughly cleaned it (again) last night, so I'm going to try putting it back on the tank in a different position than I usually do and see if that has any effect.

And I agree with you Avi. It doesn't make any sense to me either.


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## kimcadmus

If the filter is the culprit then any filter would cause the same effect you would think. My aquasoil cloudiness issue was on a tank with an eheim canister installed exactly per instructions with no mechanical disruption of the substrate.

I know that new aquasoil sets in action an ammonia spike which would feed a bacterial bloom as suggested by a previous poster.

By the way "charging the filter with DE" that I refered to early on in this thread was done by using a filter with a micron cartridge option for mechanical filtration. Some canister type filters like those made by Marineland and others come with instructions on using DE to filter out the finest particles for water polishing. DE is diatomacious earth and can be purchased at any hardward store. It is common for photographers to polish water with a DE filter for a photo shoot of aquaria or other underwater subjects.


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## DGalt

If it is the filter, though, then what exactly is the cause. Disregarding whether its a HOB or canister (because, tbh, I don't agree with this argument), what about the fact that there is water hitting the surface of the tank is causing such an issue? I put it like that because I feel like I've eliminated every other variation. There is definitely flow in the tank right now due to the underwater filter, but there is no cloudiness. Unless the HOB outflow was only gently hitting the substrate (enough to disrupt the bottom but not enough to create any type of disturbance in the actual substrate, because there definitely isn't any movement of the substrate itself), I'm totally at a loss. 

:frusty:


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## Tex Gal

I think you have a bad batch. I had one. Over the course of 6 months or so I was filtering out my AquaSoil. I started out with 3-4" in the back and by the time I switched it out I had 1" in the back. The soil disintegrated into dust - hence cloudy water. It kinda clears up with a water change because you are taking out the dust suspension with the water. I tried everything- DE filter, Micron pads, Clarity, Purigen, got rid of many bottom feeder fish that I though my be stirring it up. Nothing worked. I had such detritus that it settled on the leaves and I lost plants since they could not photosynthesize. It was awful. Not until I changed out the substrate from Amazonia II to regular Amazonia did it stop. Once I changed it out my tank was CLEAR in a matter of hours.


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## DGalt

I know that's a likely possibility, just sort of hoping that's not the case. Either way, as I said Jeff thinks its the filtration. Until I show that it isn't the filtration I don't think there is much I can do in terms of getting a replacement (and I don't even know if I show it is faulty if they'll replace it. Does anyone have experience with ADG and stuff like this? I mean, it's not like this stuff, or shipping it here, was cheap out


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## Avi

The appearance that it might "be" the filter would only come from the fact that the water is moving when it's on and so the water moving over tiny particles of the substate aren't stable and are being "eroded" in much the same way as you see perfectly rounded rocks at the river's edge that were eroded by water over many years. 

The fact that you have an undergravel filter on the tank is irrelevant to the cloudiness because that operates by pulling water downward and the silt would be going downward with it and its destination will be at the very bottom under the tank beneath the substrate and the undergravel filter’s plates.

Tex Gal’s experience was just what mine was but I opted to go with EcoComplete instead of a different Amazonia. One of those options would be best for you, IMO.


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## DGalt

it's not an undergravel filter. it's a small powerhead really, but can be fitted with a sponge if you want (I use it for CO2 distribution; it's this one: Hagen Elite Mini)

If I could just go down to the store and get a new bag of the stuff I would, but that's not an option. And throwing away $80 would make me rather sad. ADG isn't particularly clear about their return policy though


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## Natalia

Is there any improvement? Did you do DI water change and what happened?

I think the filter has nothing to do with the problem. Canister or HOB, the filter is only a device that moves the water. In theory there was a slim chance that your HOB was an established filter and something was released suddenly in the water column and made it cloudy. But if you had cleaned the unit I think this is very unlikely. I would wait for a few days without changing the water. If the situation does not improve then TexGal and Avi are right and you have a bad batch. ADG are nice people (in my experience) and you should be able to arrange a replacement with them. I totally agree that considering the cost of the substrate+shipping it is not an easy decision just to through it away.


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## bsmith

Are we talking about suspended particulates or cloudiness form the ammonia that is released as a result of it's fertilization capibilities?


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## DGalt

Well there definitely is that white/milky color that I'm attributing to a bacterial bloom, but that's not my concern.

My concern is the quite obvious brown, suspended particles.

At several points my tank looked very similar to this: 









The Eheim arrived today and I just finished hooking it up. Just have to wait a few hours and see what happens :neutral:


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## DGalt

So far, so good. None of the cloudiness that I was seeing before has returned. Don't know why, but as long as it stays away I don't really care.

This is what the tank looks like right now (excuse the scape, a bunch of stuff got moved around and I've been too busy fixing water clarity to bother fixing anything else):










So the question is, is that white haziness from the aquasoil or is that a bacteria bloom. If it is a bacteria bloom about how long before it starts to clear up (and if it doesn't clear up within a reasonable time frame then I assume it's still an aquasoil issue)


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## Avi

Well, it is a bit of a dilemna. I, of course, don't blame you for not being frivolous with the cost of the substrate. I guess some more patience is probably adviseable. This is as good as it ever got for me....










But, if you should come to the conclusion that this substrate just isn't suitable, I have to recommend EcoComplete since from what I've seen in my own experience with it and having spoken to others, there are no issues with that.


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## houseofcards

Bacterial blooms which usually stay milky white will clear up after a while on their own, while algae blooms (Green water) can stay around for a real long time. So if it doesn't go away it could be Green Water. Water changes will not help if its GW you need to use a Diatom filter or UV. BTW how old is this tank and what kind of light have you been running from the getgo?


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## DGalt

Tank has been up for about a year, but pretty much everything is new within the last week (substrate, filter, everything but the fish and the plants/driftwood). 

Lights for the past 4 months or so have been 26W of CFL spiral (DIY incandescent hood). I just upped that to 40W recently but I haven't had the lights on much lately since it has seemed kind of pointless considering the cloudiness of the water. 

And Avi, I agree. Hopefully it'll clear up on its own. I've made progress over the last week. We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks, just trying not to make any drastic decisions.

Edit:
The greenish tint has to do with my camera, which is being screwy. The actual tank is definitely white, no green tint at all.


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## Natalia

DGalt,

If I were you i would move all that fish out of the tank in some temporary container ASAP. You will have a huge ammonia spike from Aquasoil. I bet it is high already. Even with 50% water change every day the ammonia and later nitrite will be very high, actually higher than the test kit can measure. It takes about 4 weeks from ammonia/ nitrite to go away.


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## Natalia

Also, neons and angels are not the best combination because in there natural environment neons are the food for angels. They will just dissapear one by one as the angel grows...


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## vancat

Natalia said:


> Also, neons and angels are not the best combination because in there natural environment neons are the food for angels. They will just dissapear one by one as the angel grows...


Absolutely true. Expensive fish food....!


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## DGalt

well unfortunately there is little I can do about housing the fish somewhere else. I was originally told that I would be fine as long as I did water changes, but that was before I had to replace my filter. This whole process hasn't gone exactly as I planned it. I'm at school, though, and don't have anything else bigger than 6 gallons, which would end up being even worse to house all those fish in. My ammonias levels are just over 1ppm and I'm already seeing nitrites, so I think I'll be ok. The tank has been up for over a week and I haven't lost anyone or seen any deleterious effects. I know the ideal situation would have been to house everywhere someone else for a couple weeks, but that just wasn't an option and at the time I was informed that I'd be ok (again, before needing to get a whole new filter system)

As for the angles, they're temporary inhabitants. My roommate left them with me (much to my chagrin, but he pretty much begged me) while he's at an internship for May and June. They'll be out of the tank in early July. Have yet to see any aggression from them though, and they've been in there for over a month. 

Short of relocating everyone what can I do to make life easier for the fish? Already doing daily wcs. I'm thinking of getting some ammo lock or something like that, but I've read posts of people suggesting to avoid doing that. Any reason?


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## Tex Gal

You can dose Prime on off days of your w/c. If you read the bottle you will see that it's ok. I got a 20 gallon rubbermaid container and hung an HOB off that. I kept my fish in there for about a month. Only lost 4 or so and 2 of them committed suicide (khuli's swam up and got stuck in the intake of the HOB). I put fake and my low light plants in there along with rocks for them to hide in. I changed water in there every day. It's messy but it works.


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## Natalia

1 ppm ammonia is very high already. Having a new filter = having no filter at all. I doubt that fish can tolerate these conditions for a month. Why not transfer everybody in 6gal container with your old HOB filter and some plants and follow TexGal's advice on Prime and frequent WC? I have a bottle of dry AmQuel Plus ( a product from Kordon that should eliminate ammonia, ntrite and nitrate). It is labeled as safe even for the reef aquarium. I would be happy to give it to you any time if you can pick it up in New Haven. You are in CT, right?


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## DGalt

it's more an issue of space. but you're right, especially if the ammonia levels are going to stay that high for that long. I have a 10gallon I'm going to have my parents bring up to me this weekend (until then I'll move them to the 6g). I'll just have to clear some floor space or something. I forgot that I have some ammo lock from when I last cycled this tank, but thanks for the offer 

I suppose this is for the best. I need to drain the tank anyway so I can fix my scape.


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## DGalt

Is there any way to speed up the cycling process? I know there are some commercial items. Do any of them actually do anything?


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## bsmith

I would let it go but Seachem Stability is good stuff.


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## oldpunk78

can you get a close-up picture of the AS?

this is almost exactly what happened when i got a bad batch of AS II.

does it fall apart when when you handle it? is there a lot of sediment mixed in with it? 

if so, you will be battling the suspended particles every time you disturb the substrate. pain in the butt! not to mention the MUD in your filter.


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## DGalt

Alright all the fish are in the 10gallon. 

I decided to try and work on my scape since all the fish are out now. Drained the tank, redid everything (since I found some new pieces I liked better), refilled. Back to the insane cloudiness. Canister hasn't cleared it up. So apparently the HOB was somehow stirring up the substrate (don't ask me how), which the canister wasn't doing, but neither are able to remove the fine particles. 

I emailed Jeff. Hopefully he'll get back to me soon. Looks like I have a bunch of large water changes ahead of me again :frusty:

the soil doesn't fall apart but it's ridiculously dusty. there does seem to be a good amount of sediment mixed in I guess. Brown dust everywhere. 

sigh. nothing is ever simple.


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## Avi

I don't mean to be discouraging, but IMO at least, at some point it's best to end the negative experience you've been having for some time now. This might be it because it seems to me you have a batch of that substrate that is much like what I had and others have had, too. By now it's fairly clear that you're never going to have any good results from what's in your tank now and all your efforts and optimism are being converted into a waste of your time. Water change after water change will bring you to the same point in all likelihood.

I suggest you pull the substrate out of your tank...get some EcoComplete and work on getting a credit for the cost of the substrate that you could put toward some other things, like fish food or test kits, etc. Keep in mind that although the substrate you "thought were buying" has the potential to give good results, it isn't a magic formula and from all indications, isn't so much better than more consistent high-quality substrates that it's worth what you're going through. Maybe what I'm saying sounds discouraging, but I wish that someone had said this to me when I had wasted so much effort and time with the same problem.


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## DGalt

if I could just bring it back to a store then that'd be one thing. but I can't, because I didn't get it from a store near me. and the couple of LFS I do know of around here don't carry anything in the terms of plant substrate (eco-complete or otherwise). like I said, I've already contacted the person who runs the place I got the stuff from. beyond that, I don't know what to do (natalia, do you know of any stores in CT that carry eco-complete or aquasoil?). 

what's frustrating is not that I can't get the water to be clear, because I can (or I did before), I just don't think it's supposed to take this much effort.


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## Avi

You can get it online at:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9087

or other "catalog" sites, but if you don't want to pay for the shipping in addition to the substrate itself, you can go to House of Fins in Greenwich to get it...or also Greenwich Aquaria in Riverside on Route 1 will have it or get it quickly for you...Ask for Joe there.


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## niko

Aquasoil can't be compared to anyting else when it comes to growing plants - emersed or submersed. And just because it's Japanese it doesn't mean that all bags will be perfect. There have been issues with some batches before.

If you decide to switch to another substrate consider them all the same. No need to spend money on anything special. After about 4 to 6 months when mulm accumulates in the substrate they are all the same. AquaSoil really helps you in these first 4 or so months while all other substrates do nothing.

If you have to have black substrate get the 3M quartz. It's the cheapest black inert substrate.

If you find a seller that is willing to open a 9 liter bag of AquaSoil, rebag it in 3 smaller ziplock bags, and put in in an USPS Flat Rate box the shipping will be only $10.

--Nikolay


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## Natalia

DGalt,

Unfortunately I do not know any store in CT that carries EcoComplete. I shop all my fish staff online (general lack of time). I think I have an unopened bag of aquasoil that you can get if you want to try another batch. I also have leftovers of Aquariumplants.com substrate which is somewhat similar to EcoComplete. I have it in my 55 grow-out tank and plants grow very well. From few posts here I figured that Aquariumplants.com substrate is Soil Master Select and quite a few people like it. Since you have just 15 gal tank I will be happy to give it to you absolutely free, but I need to check how much I have left. You can also get free plants if you are interested, I have a nice selection.

I do not have an extensive experience in planted tanks, but my advice would be to leave Aquasoil for later if this is your first planted tank. It is a good substrate, but you need to understand very well what you are doing to have success with it. Some plants grow well in AS, but some of my crypts and swords actually do not. I do not have cloudy water, but every time I vacuum my substrate I take out a lot of dust that comes from soil, and my conclusion is that AS does disintegrate slowly and will have to be replaced att some point


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## Avi

Natalia said:


> DGalt,
> 
> Unfortunately I do not know any store in CT that carries EcoComplete.


House of Fins...and Greenwich Aquaria...both in Greenwich.


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## icumailman

You should be able to order the Eco Complete from Petco or PetSmart for about $20 per bag and have it delivered to the store for your pick up at no extra charge. Our Petco here in NC stocks the substrate now which is awesome! I had cloudiness issues with amazonia II as well but mine went away after a couple of weeks or so. I much prefer the Eco complete to the amazonia--long term--I really cannot see any difference in the plant growth and the amazonia will have to be replaced. I'm really sold on using nothing but the Eco Complete now and if you want that really deep black look-cover the substrate in the black onyx sand.


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## DGalt

I talked to Jeff Senske of ADG, and he said that this issue was rather unheard of for Amazonia I (he mentioned issues with the first batches of Amazonia II, but that was about it). He was just as dumbfounded as I am about the issue. Either way, he's sending me another bag to see if that remedies the issue. So before I completely give up on it I'm at least going to see if it really is the batch that I got. 

But I want to make sure it can't be anything else. The tank is 15 gallons and the filter is an Eheim 2213. The spray bar is on the back wall, about 1.5inch under the surface of the water. The holes are slightly tilted forward, so the water coming out of the spraybar hits the front wall about 3/4 of the way up (so about 4 inches or so below the water line). Thanks to all the dust in the water I can see that there is definitely a current that hits the front wall and then makes its way down to the substrate. Is this a reasonable set up or could this be exacerbating the issue? I did another water change yesterday till the tank was completely clear, but this morning it's cloudy again (not as bad as the picture, but bad enough where I can't see the back of the tank). If I don't turn the filter on, the tank stays relatively clear. But I can see dust laying on the surface of the substrate. So...should I try moving the spray bar? I don't really know where I could put it / how I could position it so it creates less of a disturbance on the bottom. 

I just don't want to go through the effort of replacing all the aquasoil with a new bag just to find out the issue is with something in my tank.

Hopefully this fixes it....otherwise I'll just switch to eco complete or something like that. :bolt:


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## Avi

Any water movement that you have is going to put that silt back in suspension if you allow the water to remain unmoved for a while and it settles. Some water movement is important for your planted tank so don't worry much about the spray bar. It's the substrate that has to be resolved.


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## kimcadmus

Silt/sediment will definitely keep being kicked back into suspension
until removed and cause is eliminated

Regarding spray bar positioning.....
I have always found the placement suggested by Eheim to work the best for me. With the spray bar placed on perpendicular to the front of the tank on the left or right side glass. This puts the water movement across the longest dimension of a typically proportioned tank (obviously not a cube- not sure what yours is). I tend to then rotate the spraybar slightly upward rather than horizontal or downward so as to slightly ripple the surface in order to keep films away and is less likely to disturb substrate.

If I remember correctly you have a 2213, which is pretty strong flow for a 15g tank. It cycles 116gph. Before someone jumps on me I realize people will challenge the actual gph depending on amount of media and how it is affected over time. But it is still a lot of flow especially if you see significant water movement at the substrate where we would typically see a drop compared to higher in the tank. Spraybar placement can directly effect that.

Another option is that Eheim makes a pressure clamp for outflow hoses of all diameters.

Pressure adjusting clamp
see picture here http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~EH4005960~tab~2.html

From the Eheim site "The pressure adjusting clamp is attached to the hose and enables smooth adjustment of the flow rate according to the respective requirements. It must be used only on the pressure side when used on EHEIM filters and pumps."

The substrate could be the problem but changing it out is never fun and if the outflow disturbance is the problem you could end up in the same place.


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## kimcadmus

one more thought.....
stock eheim spraybars (long ones with many holes) are intended to increase circulation/pressure. The also make wide mouth outflows or of course there are also the glass lily pipes. You might try removing the spraybar and using the tubing do direct the flow and see what happens.


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## DGalt

well before the Eheim I was using a AC 50 which is rated at 200gph, so I actually was a bit concerned about the decrease in flow lol  I can decrease the flow though with the shut off clamp things that came with it (right? or are they not intended for that purpose?)

I originally intended to put the spray bar on the side wall but was told that this would create too much flow in a 15 gallon (due to the concept that water passing through a smaller radius pipe will be moving at a faster rate than if the radius were larger, or at least that's what I'm assuming). to get the spray bar to fit along the wall I'd have to trim it, but if you think it might be better there I might give that a try.


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## DGalt

So repositioning the spray bar definitely made a difference. I put it on the right wall, about 2.5inches below the surface with the holes facing slightly upward, then did a water change until the tank was clear. The brown cloudiness hasn't returned (did water change last night, about 14 hours ago). 

I'm back to having this white haziness in the tank though. It looks like a bacteria bloom (the filter isn't cycled yet, still seeing ammonia around 0.5ppm with nitrates around 10ppm, no nitrites oddly enough), but I'm not entirely convinced that it is. Is this typical with aquasoil? Could this still be a sign of this being a bad batch? Or, again, is this typical of aquasoil?

I suppose I'll just have to wait until the tank cycles and if the cloudiness doesn't go away then I'll have my answer.


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## kimcadmus

DGalt said:


> So repositioning the spray bar definitely made a difference. I put it on the right wall, about 2.5inches below the surface with the holes facing slightly upward, then did a water change until the tank was clear. The brown cloudiness hasn't returned (did water change last night, about 14 hours ago).


Glad it helped.



DGalt said:


> I'm back to having this white haziness in the tank though. It looks like a bacteria bloom (the filter isn't cycled yet, still seeing ammonia around 0.5ppm with nitrates around 10ppm, no nitrites oddly enough), but I'm not entirely convinced that it is. Is this typical with aquasoil? Could this still be a sign of this being a bad batch? Or, again, is this typical of aquasoil?
> 
> I know that the ammonia spike is typical of aquasoil. Regarding no nitrites but having nitrates is a reflection that bacteria is colonizing the filter. Hopefully with clear water quality with regard to the limiting silt will enable the plants to photosynthesize and work on the nitrates and ammonia as well.
> 
> 
> 
> DGalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I'll just have to wait until the tank cycles and if the cloudiness doesn't go away then I'll have my answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the cycling takes patients as we all know and again by limiting the silt the plants will hopefully take off. I believe cloudiness can also occur with aquasoil after water changes if the water is hard.
> 
> Sounds like maybe things are getting on track and by isolating one issue at a time you will solve the tank issues.
> 
> Keep us posted.
Click to expand...


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## DGalt

well what I'm concerned about is whether this white cloudiness that I'm seeing in the tank is in fact a bacteria bloom (which will clear up on its own once the tank cycles, etc.) or if it's still silt that's getting kicked up but just to a lesser extent since I moved the spray bar. Is there any way to tell?


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## Avi

I think the fact that the caste of the color of the cloudiness is white is a good sign. When I had issues with that substrate, it was always a reddish/brown color more approximating the color of substrate than white.


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## Tex Gal

You need to get yourself some Najas sp 'Roraima'. Its a great cycling plant. I have some I can give you if you want to pm me. It will suck up the nutrients and out- compete the bacterial bloom.


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## DGalt

I've heard of people using a couple of willow branches to accomplish the same thing. maybe I'll go out and grab a few tomorrow (willow trees all over the place here).


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## kimcadmus

I second the Najas Roraima suggestion from Texgal. It is a very cool plant and really helps with cycling. I have found that shrimp love it as well.

I have to think that at least some of the cloudyness is bacteria/ammonia related. Looking back at your picks it looks like you have mostly moss and anubias in the tank. Is that right? I couldn't find any tank parameter descriptions just the cloudiness pictures. Najas and fast growing stems even if just temporary additions would help greatly.

Did I miss a post where you described ph, kh, gh, co2 method?

Kim


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## Tex Gal

Just saw this in the For Sale Forum. He also has Najas sp "Roraima".

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/sale-trade/63080-amazon-swords-e-vesuvius-moss-najas.html


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## DGalt

I've done a bit more research on using willow branches and it does seem to work, so I think I'm going to try that (planning on going to grab a couple branches today )

as for water conditions:
tested a couple weeks ago:
pH is 6.5
dKH is 5 
KH/GH is 89.5ppm

as of last night:
ammonia: ~0.15ppm
nitrites: ~0.75ppm
nitrates: ~7.5ppm


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## DGalt

oh, and this is the condition the tank is in right now:


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## kimcadmus

ph, KH, GH look good. What about CO2? Any?

What about the plants you have in there? Anubias and mosses? Anything else? Those are slow growers so don't take up the amon, nitrs as well. You have alot of those in there right now. Again, fast growing stems even if temporary (najas included) really help with the cycling.

Also you have alot of exposed aquasoil. Do you have foreground plant plans?


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## DGalt

woops, yes pressurized CO2 but I don't have it on at the moment (figured it was kind of a waste since until about 2 days ago no light was getting to the plants). 

anubias, crypts, and moss are all that's in there now. I'm not a big fan of stem plants, but as I said I'm going to put some willow branches in there to suck up the nutrients (if that doesn't work I'll get some fast growers). 

and yes, I'm planning to plant glosso as a foreground. again, because of all of the issues with the water clarity I didn't plant the stuff because it would have just died (actually, I lost a lot of it in the meantime, need to get some more).


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## Tex Gal

Do you have fine dust on all the leaves, caught in the moss? If you do it's not a bacterial bloom alone. It reminds me of my horrid substrate days!


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## DGalt

There was a ton of dust (worse than the moss was the anubias leaves, which the dust seems to cling to. i've cleaned them off as much as possible, but there's still some stuck to them), which i've gone about trying to remove. I haven't noticed if it's re-accumulated, I'll check today.


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## Tex Gal

Sounds like your substrate! So sorry! I lost so many plants with mine. I think you must have gotten a bad batch. I switched mine out and haven't had a minutes problem since. I struggled with it for months and months. I feel your pain!!!


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## DGalt

yeah it's been terrible. I'm hoping the tank will clear up now that I have the spray bar placed in a new spot and the terrible brown cloudiness I was getting hasn't returned. But the tank is still pretty hazy. Hopefully that'll go away, but I'm not so sure. ADG is sending me a new bag, but if I can avoid tearing the tank apart again I'd like to. 

unfortunately there is little I can do in terms of troubleshooting the problem. the cloudiness I'm seeing could still be from the aquasoil or it could be a bacteria bloom, but there is no definitive way to tell which one it is :frusty:


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## DGalt

so the struggle continues. last ditch effort before i change the substrate to the new bag (which should be here some time this week). the tank is clearer but still pretty hazy. I was thinking of trying seachem clarity. Does anyone have any experience with this? Also, my tank is still cycling, is it going to hurt that process?


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## Tex Gal

In my battles, I used Clarity. It helped like your water changes helped and then went right back. I think I used it 3 days in a row. It tells you on the bottle how often to use it. Some have said that using it more will hurt the gills of your fish. The idea is that it binds the small particles together so that they can be filtered out. So, essentially, your kind of putting a binding agent in the water that your fish's gills are filtering. Anyway.... I would do it for the allotted time and wait a little and do it again. I think I did 3 rotations and then gave up on it helping.

It won't hurt your tank cycling.


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## DGalt

well luckily i don't have any fish in the tank so i'm not too worried about overdosing (unless it'll hurt my plants )

it's slowly getting better, emphasis on slowly though. this is aquasoil I not II (which, texgal, you said you had issue with). i don't think it's breaking down, it's just very very dusty. Tuning down my filter output may help but tbh I don't want to do that. we'll see how it goes. hopefully the new bag of AS will arrive tomorrow so I'll get to play around with that too


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## DGalt

so more or less the issue seems to be that there is a ton of exposed (i.e not covered by plants) aquasoil. since there is a decent amount of current in the tank (including near the substrate, since the eheim 2213 is a little bit much for a 15 gallon I think), it's stirring up whatever is in the substrate. I covered as much of the substrate as I could today with ceran wrap (as per someone's suggestion) and a lot of the cloudiness is gone (not all of it, but I wasn't able to completely cover everything)

the question is this: if I plant a ground cover (I have piles and piles of dwarf hairgrass on order, should be here by the end of this week or early next week), will the cloudiness eventually go away once the hairgrass forms a nice carpet? or is there something wrong with the aquasoil I have? I've seen plenty of people with tanks that have exposed aquasoil (such as when the tank is first planted) that don't seem to have this water quality issue. Is it just that they have less current in their tank? Again, I'll replace the aquasoil if need be but the last thing i want is to go through that mess just to have the same issues

I mean, if the current is the issue I can drill some more holes in the spray bar, which will decrease the pressure in the spray bar and thereby weaken the current in the tank (while keeping the same flow rate in terms of amount of water filtered per hour. right? I'm assuming that's true but if isn't please correct me)


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## Tex Gal

That seems to me that that cinches it, your ADA A.S. is breaking down. When I changed mine I had NO MORE ISSUES. It's only going to get worse as it ages. You can treat it as regular dirt like an NPT and cap it but then why pay all that money for ADA A.S.? I still have my 125g with the changed out A.S. and no cloudiness. I replant and re-arrange in it all the time. It does not cloud up when I do this. If you cap it you will have to treat it like a soil tank and try not to mess up the dirt, ie cut plants off and leave roots in, don't re-arrange much, etc. To me that takes a lot of the fun out.

I have tons of movement in my tank. I have a 125 and an eheim 2262 (900gph) as well as a mag drive 9.5 (950gph). It's not your over filtration.


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## DGalt

i think i'm going to just rescape the tank when the new bag arrives. thought it would be here this week but apparently not until Monday. not real sure if one 9L bag is going to be enough (I originally bought 2, only 1 is being sent to me. if it really is that the stuff I have is bad maybe I'll be able to convince Jeff to send me another 9L :? or at least a 3L, which is really all I'd need I think), since I just poured the 2 bags together when I got them, not sure how much I actually used.


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## kimcadmus

Dgalt - sounds like your making a good decision given your trials and Texgal has made good points and has a lot of aquasoil experience.

After changing out the aquasoil, I would still keep the reduction of flow as an option. While you definately want good consistent water movement you can have too much IMHO. Drilling additional holes with reduce the force of the spray but you may want to focus more on the angle and placement when you rescape and just work with that. When the tank grows out to where you want it the plant mass will likely reduce flow.

Plants covering the substrate will help cut down on the cloudiness but if you have a bad batch of ADA it is a mute point. Dwarf hairgrass will make a great foreground plant and is a great indicator of flow. IF you plant it and can't keep it in the ground (since aquasoil is very light) or it is bent over to the ground you know you need to work on the 2213 flow.

We had a presentation at one of our club meetings by a well known reefer and one of the best topics he spoke on was circulation and flow. He showed diagrams of flow reduction slowing from the top of the tank gradually toward the bottom and how that reduces the co2 concentration at the substrate. I have played around with the Koralia nano powerheads in my tanks to redirect the circulation without disturbing the substrate and it works beautifully. It solved algae problems in static water movement areas once the plants were grown out and evened out growthrates. While it sounds like I might be contradicting myself, what I am trying to say is that It is often necessary to circulate the water more efficiently rather than with more force or GPH.


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## DGalt

i hope so. going to be sad if I see the same issue with the new stuff 

TexGal, do you have any pictures of what the AS that was breaking down in your tank looked like? I found some pictures (which I'm having difficulty finding now) and the AS looked like a pile of reddish brown dust. That certainly isn't what I'm seeing in my tank right now. It's still in its little ball or pellet shape.


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## Tex Gal

Pxs here and on my thread.




























Fine dust on everything


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## DGalt

that looks much too familiar lol. 

dropped a couple capfuls of clarity in today and the tank is almost clear though. dunno, going to keep playing with it since the new stuff won't be here till next week.


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## DGalt

treated the tank again today with another dosage of Clarity to see if it could clear up the little bit of cloudiness i still had after treating it yesterday; tank is now completely clear. Very strange 

The particles have made a mess of my plants though, especially my moss, which definitely doesn't look happy. i'm going to clean up as much of it as I can today, remove the ceran wrap and plant my foreground and see what happens.


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## DGalt

soooooo......5hrs or so after Clarity cleared up my tank and it's still crystal clear. 

don't understand it, but not complaining. I rescaped, planted a whole bunch of new plants, filled tank back up, dropped in some clarity again and it's again completely clear. go figure. :rofl:

at a loss here lol, but whatever.


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## Avi

Well, that's a good result. I really think that it's important that you posted your experience with that substrate, because I think it isn't such a rarity that it is something that the prospective user of it doesn't need to be aware. I had experience with it that turned out to be far more troublesome than your experience and I know a lot of other people are disappointed with it or at least inconvenienced by it, and it's threads like this that will, at least, warn them that they, also, might have some real bumps in the road with it when they are so anxious to have a beautiful planted tank in their home.


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## DGalt

believe me, if I had known this was going to be such a mess I would have thought twice before buying this stuff. despite the water being clear a lot of my plants are still covered with dirt particles that are going to be a real pain to clean up. my original goal was to put in a natural looking dark substrate that would grow a foreground well (since everything in my tank besides the hairgrass is rather undemanding). I'm sure I could have found a more hassle free option. yay for impulse shopping I suppose :doh:

hopefully this stuff lives up to its reputation, though, and I get some decent growth (obviously substrate isn't the only thing, or even the major thing, but it certainly won't hurt; at least i hope not)

thanks everyone for all the help along the way. hopefully things will stay clear and i can lay this issue to rest.


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