# Need some Ludwegia- N Dallas area



## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

You can read about my algae plight here (sorry I just found this spot)
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/128749-could-use-some-help-my-120g.html
And I know I am not a club member, but wondering you you could help a brother out to find some Ludwegia in the N Dallas are (I am in Plano)

My current plan is to syringe excel on to the more covered areas, up to the point were there would be 4x the recommended dosage (roughly 100 gallons - 5ml/ 10 gallon for initial dosing x10=50ml x4=200 ml for the tank).
Then see over the course of a week how it is going and reapply at the lower 5ml-50G( x some dosage). Likely the anacharis will go ghostly, but there isn't that much in there.

BUT, it was recommended I plant ludwegia to hope it will consume enough nutrients to out pace the algaes attempt at regrowth.
Anyone know a source out here or want to sell me some?

thanks for listening - Steve


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

I'm in plano, you just need to get a big plant mass going in there.
not sure if I have ludwigia but I have steams plants.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Steve,

No one on that thread seemed to ask, but do you have pressurized CO2? Also, the powerhead and filter ... what type/model are they and how do you have them positioned?

As far as using the syringe, I wouldn't bother. Just dose Excel daily per instructions and the BBA will die off. The GSA covered leaves should be removed.

Lastly, can you upload a picture of the entire tank. I would like to see it and know about the powerhead/filter/CO2 situation before I say anymore.

EDIT: Ok, I went and read some of your other posts.

The probable reason you are seeing BBA is CO2 fluctuation. Your GSA is probably due to low PO4. You are trying to run a low tech setup like a high tech setup (too much light, too many water changes). You would be better off doing fewer water changes to create a more stable CO2 level, reducing the lights a tad bit (remove one bulb) and increasing your PO4 dose. That or dose Excel daily and get rid of the anachris.

I agree that more plant mass is a good idea, but since you already have hygrophila polysperma, I don't think you need another nutrient hog. H Polysperma should be growing fast enough to give you all the stems you could ever need. If it's not, then that should tell you the plants are doing well. Why? They're starving. Too much light; photosynthetic rate too high for the conditions. So, either lower the light, or increase the nutrition, or better yet, do both. While cutting off nutrition may seem wise to keep the algae down, it's actually the last thing you should do. Algae will thrive with or without the nutrition. The plants will suffer without it. Healthy plants are the best method for preventing algae. So, treat the plants first and the algae will suffer for it.

Also, my advise is don't waste time with the test kits. I'm dosing 1/2 tsp KNO3, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4, as well as K2SO4 three times a week in a 55 gallon tank. Compared to what you're dosing in a 120 gallon, I'm putting enough nutrition in to feed a pond right?










Other than some BGA along the bottom front glass and a spot here and there of GSA, there's no visible algae in this tank and never has been from day one. I do large, weekly water changes, but I also dose Excel daily to stabilize my CO2 levels. I only use a single bulb of T5HO lighting. So, don't cut back on the ferts thinking it will do away with algae. Fish only tanks get algae, so algae doesn't need the salts we use to feed our plants. Ammonia is sufficient.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

I have a powerhead (with a batt of blue floss around it on one end (Aquaclear 802), no CO2, no doses, ferts, etc.
A Eheim 2128 on the other end. I have cut the light to 4 hrs in the am and 4 in the pm.
For the hell of it, did a H2O2 dip of a few plants and washed them off, replanted.

Increase phosphates (they are sub 1ppm)? I have some Potassium Phosphate (dry), Would that work solo?


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Yes, the Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) is perfect. Don't worry about testing the phosphate levels. Unless you've calibrated the test kits against a reference, they are probably inaccurate. Besides, you would go broke before you could put in enough fertilizer to kill fish, and algae has not been shown to be triggered by phosphate. That's a myth that many have proven is false. I disproved it in the picture above, in fact. Nitrate tests cannot distinguish between organic and inorganic sources of nitrate, so they aren't much use. Inorganic nitrate, like we use to fertilize with (KNO3), is completely harmless for the fauna, so long as you don't drop in some insane amount that would prove poisonous just as any other substance under the sun would in a high enough concentration. 

Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with a 10 hour photoperiod. That's what the tank in the photo above uses. You just have too much light for a non-CO2 tank. You can force plants to stop photosynthesis prematurely and cut back CO2 demand, but the gain from doing so is probably minimal and won't improve the situation in any noticeable way at the point you're at. So why cut off your viewing time for so little gain?

Also, I think your plant mass is fine. You just need to focus on transforming it into a healthy plant mass.

If it's not clear, what I've been trying to say is, stop focusing on algae; focus on the plants. Everyone I saw was advising you how to kill algae, which is fine, but someone should be telling you how to really solve the overall issue, the poor plant health.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

Ekrindul said:


> If it's not clear, what I've been trying to say is, stop focusing on algae; focus on the plants. Everyone I saw was advising you how to kill algae, which is fine, but someone should be telling you how to really solve the overall issue, the poor plant health.


Deal, I will quit focusing on the algae and start with a clean slate.

I guess I should state that I am not lazy, but don't like to spend a lot of time on the aquarium (ok, maybe I am lazy). Can you suggest a regime, what I should do from here? 
Buying a CO2 system isn't out of the question, but I would rather not go that route.
Is there a relatively easy method for this? Buy 200 more fish? 
While I have the chemicals, I don't know how to mix and use them and don't know of a resource for it (help me Obiwan).


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

You don't need to get a CO2 system. And once you get the plants healthy, the tank will require much less maintenance. 

I'll put this in a list to make it easier:

1) Remove 1 bulb from the fixture. This leaves you with 165 watts, which is more in the range for your goals.

2) Clean the tank. Remove all the algae from the glass. This will improve it's immediate overall appearance and make you feel better about it. This is important. It will motivate you to keep making improvements. Remove as many leaves as seems reasonable that are covered with algae. Don't kill the plant by taking all the leaves, but leaves with GSA all over them are doomed. BBA will fall away with treatment, but GSA will not. 

3) Now do a big water change. About 70%.

4) Start dosing Excel per manufacturer's instructions daily, including the big dose at water change. Continue this until the BBA is no more, then you can continue the Excel if you like what you see and don't mind the expense and weekly water changes, or you can start dosing every other day for a few weeks, then twice a week, so on until you go cold turkey. However, so long as you are using Excel, you will have to do weekly water changes of at least 40 to 50%.

4) Dose your ferts. At least KNO3 and KH2PO4. I'd recommend 1/2 tsp KNO3 twice a week, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4 twice a week and continue dosing the Equilibrium as you were. Improvement in plants occurs over weeks generally, so watch for gradual improvement in their health and increase dosing if you don't see good results. You can decrease dosing later if you wish, but I would suggest erring on too much for a few months to learn what good levels can do and what a healthy plant looks like. You should also consider dosing a micronutrient solution once or twice a week as EcoComplete isn't as nutrient rich as the manufacturer would like us to believe. If you go with a dry mix like CSM+B, try dosing 1/8 tsp twice a week. If you go with a liquid source, like Seachem Flourish, dose about twice what the bottle recommends as they don't make their recommendation for a heavily planted tank and it's mostly water. If you decide to stick with Excel, ignore step 5. If you want to get away from all the water changes, move on to step 5.

5) If you decide to ween off the Excel, once you do so completely, reduce water changes to once a month for a few months. You may see some set back at first as the plants adjust to the lower CO2 level, but once they do you can keep backing off the water changes until you only need to do them once or twice a year. You won't be able to move plants around much, though, without doing a water change right afterwards. You should also reduce dosing to once a week at this point. The plants demands will decrease as they adjust to lower CO2 levels.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

What kind of Ludwigia are you wanting?


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

Ekrindul said:


> 4) Dose your ferts. At least KNO3 and KH2PO4. I'd recommend 1/2 tsp KNO3 twice a week, 1/4 tsp KH2PO4 twice a week and continue dosing the Equilibrium as you were. Improvement in plants occurs over weeks generally, so watch for gradual improvement in their health and increase dosing if you don't see good results. You can decrease dosing later if you wish, but I would suggest erring on too much for a few months to learn what good levels can do and what a healthy plant looks like. You should also consider dosing a micronutrient solution once or twice a week as EcoComplete isn't as nutrient rich as the manufacturer would like us to believe. If you go with a dry mix like CSM+B, try dosing 1/8 tsp twice a week. If you go with a liquid source, like Seachem Flourish, dose about twice what the bottle recommends as they don't make their recommendation for a heavily planted tank and it's mostly water. If you decide to stick with Excel, ignore step 5. If you want to get away from all the water changes, move on to step 5.


First, thanks! The advice is fairly easy to follow and straight forward and works towards the final goal.

KNO3 is potassium nitrate and KH2PO4 is mono potassium phosphate - correct? Can those be added at the same time (mixed separately)?
Here you are talking Equlibrium (for mineral balance and GH) or was that supposed to be Excel?
I have a gallon of Flourish, so I will use that.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

digital_gods said:


> What kind of Ludwigia are you wanting?


Thanks for the offer,, but I am going to try the above first, then come back begging for plants


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

steve worcester said:


> First, thanks! The advice is fairly easy to follow and straight forward and works towards the final goal.
> 
> KNO3 is potassium nitrate and KH2PO4 is mono potassium phosphate - correct? Can those be added at the same time (mixed separately)?
> Here you are talking Equlibrium (for mineral balance and GH) or was that supposed to be Excel?
> I have a gallon of Flourish, so I will use that.


Correct on the chemicals. You can add each to the tank dry and at the same time. Just measure it out straight from the container and dump them in the tank.

Equilibrium adds some nutrients you want in the tank (Ca/Mg/Fe/K), so continue using it. You can use Flourish for micros. Dose it on different days from the KNO3 and KH2PO4, or at least several hours apart.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

As an update, Saturday I did the massive water change , about %70, dosed 2x Excel, and took out a bunch of the more haggard plants and trimmed back some other. I also dosed 1.5 tsp Equilibrium and 10ml Flourish.
Tank was real cloudy after that. Sunday and Monday, seems I overdid something, had a big fish kill, almost all of the algae eating species, 2 Chinese and a Siamese algae eater died and some of the newly introduced small Siamese AEs. 
Sunday a 1/2tsp KN03 and 1/4 tsp KH2P04, Monday the tank was so cloudy I cleaned the filter and added 10ml Excel.
Seems to have equalized a bit, water is much clearer, fishys seemed happier, black beard and thread algae are changing colors, so they are one the demise as planned.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

If the cloudiness persisted longer than an hour, it was likely a bacteria bloom. The oxygen levels will plummet when one occurs. Best thing to do is agitate the surface as much as possible until it runs its course.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

Well, next time maybe I can save some buddies by throwing an air stone in for a bit or pointing the powerhead up.
Thanks


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

It may be that when you took out some of the plants, you released alot of organics from the substrate that had built up. Thus the bacteria bloom. This is a danger with a low tech, infrequent water change approach. You cannot uproot plants much at all. Best way to avoid it is simply trim the plant at the substrate level and leave the roots. The roots will act as a fertilizer, as well, once they break down.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

Either is was the Nitrates or the Excel that killed your fish. Glutaraldehyde (active ingredient in Excel) is a biocide.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

digital_gods said:


> Either is was the Nitrates or the Excel that killed your fish. Glutaraldehyde (active ingredient in Excel) is a biocide.


Robert,

Did you see any fish dying in my tanks the other day? I use Excel daily. Why aren't my fish dead then? And do you know what concentration you have to reach before nitrate will actually kill a fish? Look it up.

Heck, my cat drinks from my aquarium, and she is not dead.


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## marcio (Jan 18, 2011)

steve worcester said:


> As an update, Saturday I did the massive water change , about %70, dosed 2x Excel, and took out a bunch of the more haggard plants and trimmed back some other. I also dosed 1.5 tsp Equilibrium and 10ml Flourish.
> Tank was real cloudy after that. Sunday and Monday, seems I overdid something, had a big fish kill


Steve,

Massive water changes on a tank full of fish? Sounds risky to me. Two questions to think about...

(1) did you equalize (more or less) the water temp of the incoming water to the previous temp? My tap water is usually below 70 degrees... a few days ago, following the cold days, it was coming well below 60! I actually store the water I will add on a large bucket with a heater and the water only moves in when it is within 5 degrees of tank temp (and that for 20% wc).

(2) did you treat the new water for clorine / cloramine? I know for one thing that tap water in Dallas does contain cloramine (it is posted on the Dallas water agency site) and that can kill fish.

I don't believe oxigen levels would collapse to the point of massive kill just because of uprooting plants... bacterial bloom maybe but I would first see what could be wrong with the new water added.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

marcio said:


> Steve,
> 
> Massive water changes on a tank full of fish? Sounds risky to me. Two questions to think about...
> 
> ...


I've had a bacteria bloom in the past that was sufficient to kill most of my shrimp and have my fish gasping at the surface, in only a few hours time. SAE would be at a disadvantage in an oxygen low environment due to how they swim.

Nitrate levels would be low due to the water change, so that doesn't make sense, not to mention the levels needed to actually kill a fish have to be extremely high. The wide use of Excel and metrocide without fish death rules that out. Some fish can be put into shock by a rapid change in water temperature, so that could be a possibility (I gave Steve the benefit of the doubt, as I did on adding conditioner). The fact that the water turned cloudy and remained so for several days right after removing plants leads me to believe a bacteria bloom occurred. See this study and note at the bottom of the page how swiftly the fish were killed off:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AC226E/AC226E00.htm


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## marcio (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks for the link, Ekrindul. I will take a look at that...

I just think that the main event was the massive water change... if something went wrong with this change (and a significant temperature drop and/or cloramine would qualify) I think those are the main factors to be addressed for the future. For example, Steve might have treated the water with a new conditioner that is clorine only... big problem here in Dallas.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Consider that the fish died the two days after the water change. That rules out temperature. Fish that are easily shocked by temperature die rapidly, within minutes. Chloramine is a possibility, but considering he has had the tank for at least 3.5 years, I didn't consider this a mistake he was likely to make. Maybe so. 

But more likely, I think, is a release of NH4 from a three and half year old substrate. NH4 is even more deadly than chloramine. This is why you do large water changes when you uproot or move plants. The water change may have in fact lessened the issue that did occur, as the NH4 wouldn't have taken a day to begin killing the fish by itself. A small amount left in the tank could have triggered a bacteria bloom, though. And despite what some people advise on the internet about how they are harmless, a bacteria bloom of sufficient levels will suffocate fish.


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## marcio (Jan 18, 2011)

Interesting and plausible arguments, Ekrindul... I've kept super-low-tech aquaria for many years and always avoided large (>50%) water changes with fish on the tank and it has served me well... and I did not even worry/know about sudden NH4 release from the substrate (which sounds very possible and scary now that you mentioned).

I did not notice the info about the 3.5 year age of set-up... of course in such a case we should expect temp and basic water treatment to run smoothly. 

It would be interesting to know what fish survived. If the survivors are from species that can handle lower oxigen levels that the casualties, that would be a strong argument for the suffocation - Maybe you can run the same analysis based on sensibility to NH4?


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Well, regarding the SAE suffering in an oxygen low environment, I merely meant they can't maintain buoyancy without expending energy like a fish with a more developed swim bladder, like say a platy, so they can't sit at the surface indefinitely where the oxygen would be richer. So I didn't mean it in regards to a tolerance for lower levels; more of a physical incapability to cope. Sort of, an extreme opposite state of an anabantoid, which is physically very capable of surviving a low oxygen environment, obviously.

I don't think there are too many fish we keep that are very tolerant of NH4. This is the very reason fishless-cycling has become so popular. Danios and barbs may tolerate it better. I'm sure it does damage to them even if they survive it. Everything else seems to drop quick when exposed to it.

In a low tech setup, small water changes are best, or even no water changes except when you do some rearranging. But I would say more to keep CO2 consistent which helps to control algae. Small water changes in a fish only tank would be best as well for the same reason. But as far as a water change killing fish, what about the change is causing deaths? People say pH. In natural bodies of water, pH swings on a daily basis with no associated fish deaths (see http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/fishing/fish-kill/2007-fish-kill-findings.pdf). CO2 tanks have a daily pH swing, and a water change will usually cause some swing in pH, especially if the tank hasn't been changed in a while and has material in it that causes the water to become more acid or basic over time. It's more likely what is killing fish during a large pH swing isn't the pH; it's the change in the TDS that caused it, when there is a TDS change involved. Thus, CO2 gas doesn't kill fish even though there is a change in pH daily because no change in TDS occurs. Same with a water change, generally. There are exceptions depending on what types of things you might do during the change, like add buffers and such.

Even regarding temperature, I have seen deaths during a water change that seemed to me to be caused by adding in water that was too warm. I had some neons die when I added in water that was about 5 degrees warmer. They first went into shock, I guess, and died within an hour or so. With cold water, I've never seen this. And I've added water that felt much cooler without issue.


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## alexopolus (Jan 18, 2010)

steve worcester said:


> As an update, Saturday I did the massive water change , about %70, dosed 2x Excel, and took out a bunch of the more haggard plants and trimmed back some other. I also dosed 1.5 tsp Equilibrium and 10ml Flourish.
> Tank was real cloudy after that. Sunday and Monday, seems I overdid something, had a big fish kill, almost all of the algae eating species, 2 Chinese and a Siamese algae eater died and some of the newly introduced small Siamese AEs.
> Sunday a 1/2tsp KN03 and 1/4 tsp KH2P04, Monday the tank was so cloudy I cleaned the filter and added 10ml Excel.
> Seems to have equalized a bit, water is much clearer, fishys seemed happier, black beard and thread algae are changing colors, so they are one the demise as planned.


70%water changed and filter cleaning+ exel... And fluorish... And equilibrium? Too much at the same time... ..? You probably killed most of your nitrifying bacteria,( nitrates will go up). Now I'm not sure about this but, don't you have to aerate your aquarium when you dose equilibrium?


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

alexopolus said:


> 70%water changed and filter cleaning+ exel... And fluorish... And equilibrium? Too much at the same time... ..? You probably killed most of your nitrifying bacteria,( nitrates will go up). Now I'm not sure about this but, don't you have to aerate your aquarium when you dose equilibrium?


Everything in both of my tanks would be dead right now if that were so, as I change 70% of the water, add GH Booster, KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and Excel slightly higher than the bottles recommends *weekly*. And I forgot to mention, I clean the filters monthly.

What exactly in the mix kills nitrifying bacteria? Equilibrium raises general hardness. Nothing to do with killing bacteria. There is no evidence that Excel kills nitrifying bacteria as recommended or even somewhat higher than recommended levels. If there is, please link me to it. Flourish? What in Flourish is dangerous to bacteria? Cleaning the filter in a planted tank at least 3.5 years old will not do any significant damage. The tank is full of bacteria, plus the macrophytes are probably removing most of the nitrogen anyway. If they didn't, el Natural wouldn't work. Diane Walstad doesn't even use a filter in her tanks.


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Did you remove the anacharis before adding the Excel? That, and all Val's will dissolve into mush from Excel and that releases tons of organics into the tank.


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## alexopolus (Jan 18, 2010)

Ekrindul said:


> Everything in both of my tanks would be dead right now if that were so, as I change 70% of the water, add GH Booster, KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and Excel slightly higher than the bottles recommends *weekly*. And I forgot to mention, I clean the filters monthly.
> 
> What exactly in the mix kills nitrifying bacteria? Equilibrium raises general hardness. Nothing to do with killing bacteria. There is no evidence that Excel kills nitrifying bacteria as recommended or even somewhat higher than recommended levels. If there is, please link me to it. Flourish? What in Flourish is dangerous to bacteria? Cleaning the filter in a planted tank at least 3.5 years old will not do any significant damage. The tank is full of bacteria, plus the macrophytes are probably removing most of the nitrogen anyway. If they didn't, el Natural wouldn't work. Diane Walstad doesn't even use a filter in her tanks.


Did I mention that exel killed the bacteria (I dosse exel in my tanks) Or the flourish? Lets say just the filter cleaning and the 75% water change did it (heck I killed a full colony of shrimp trying to get rid of green algae, cleaned my filter and made a 50% water change + exel, guess what? RIP, why? I don't know! 
[/QUOTE] 
Did you remove the anacharis before adding the Excel? That, and all Val's will 
dissolve into mush from Excel and that releases tons of organics into the tank. [/QUOTE]

By the way I have a 20G Natural setup (I hate the name El Natural, I guess because I'm south American and doesnt sound right) potting soil over sand... 2 years old, tons of organics and co2, and of course bacteria... Smells like crap too! But, never had algae problems... Or had to dose exel or equilibrium neither (by the way equilibrium can kill shrimp)... My point is Steve's setup is not a 
Natural setup.

By the way can anyone tell me how to post more than one quote?


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

The chemical in Excel is a surgical disinfectant, but it won't kill your bacterial colonies, or at least not significantly. People use it all the time, if it killed the bacterial load in the tank, everyone would have problems. 

Excel is good as an algicide for BBA. If you have any other variety, the best way to get rid of it in my experience is to do a water change, turn off the CO2, turn off the lighting, and block all light to the tank for 3-5 days. (Don't add Excel also.) Then do another water change, so a 1.5-2X dose of fertilizer, and restore all lighting and CO2. Plants can survive in the dark for a while, but algae can't (exception is BBA.) I usually do this when I'm away on trips so things don't go out of balance without regular fertilization and it always does wonders for tanks with a bit of green algae. 

Michael


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

alexopolus said:


> Did I mention that exel killed the bacteria (I dosse exel in my tanks) Or the flourish? Lets say just the filter cleaning and the 75% water change did it (heck I killed a full colony of shrimp trying to get rid of green algae, cleaned my filter and made a 50% water change + exel, guess what? RIP, why? I don't know!


Did you remove the anacharis before adding the Excel? That, and all Val's will 
dissolve into mush from Excel and that releases tons of organics into the tank. [/QUOTE]

By the way I have a 20G Natural setup (I hate the name El Natural, I guess because I'm south American and doesnt sound right) potting soil over sand... 2 years old, tons of organics and co2, and of course bacteria... Smells like crap too! But, never had algae problems... Or had to dose exel or equilibrium neither (by the way equilibrium can kill shrimp)... My point is Steve's setup is not a 
Natural setup.

By the way can anyone tell me how to post more than one quote?[/QUOTE]

His goals suggest he wants to move to a Natural setup though. For now, he wants to get rid of algae, particularly BBA and GSA. The steps I outlined will do that by targeting plant health and dealing with the algae directly. You can just target the algae, but it doesn't solve the issue that caused it.

There is nothing in Equilibrium that could kill shrimp. And there's no reason a water change, whatever size, would kill nitrifying bacteria. Large water changes are much more typical among hobbyist because we see the benefits and that fish kills due to large water changes simply aren't true. If it was true that large water changes kill fish/shrimp, there are alot of people in this club who would have tanks full of dead stuff right now.


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## alexopolus (Jan 18, 2010)

There is a easy way to know what happened! Let ask people in the club to please make a 70% water change+cleaning of your filter (we don't know how Steve cleaned his, hopefully not with tap water, this will eradicate bacteria in your filter... Im not sure about this but the concentration is supposed to be 2or 3 time higher than the tank) + add equilibrium (changing water parameters, some creatures don't take that well)+exel (will melt some plant) at least 1 of their tanks! Anyone? We may have no dead, 25% or more... (well I think that is someone read this will raise his/her eye brown and say "no thanks!") still have no idea what caused the fish to die.
Something I do know is not to mess with the delicate balance of a system(3years old)... Water parameters are delicate, and creatures may not take it... 

Am I the only one that have killed shrimp dozing equilibrium or plantex? (have done more than once)!


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

I'll pass on to the fish/shrimp in each of these tanks to start dropping dead then:



















I really don't know what else to say, Alex. If they aren't dying in my two tanks with the same regime, what does that say? I'm lucky?


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## MacFan (Jul 30, 2006)

Trace elements contain some copper which is toxic to shrimp, but unless you put in significantly more than normal, it shouldn't be a problem. Cleaning the filter media with tap water would be bad. Use water you're taking out for the water change anyway. Die offs after water changes can be attributed to spikes in chlorine from the city, or a significant lowering of beneficial bacteria in the filter for whatever reason that allowed an ammonia spike. Significant, extended temp/hardness/pH differences could affect sensitive or impaired fish, but it's unlikely especially if you do it regularly.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

IMO, there is nothing the Ekrindul suggested that would have killed his fish. I have many many times done 70% water changes in shrimp tanks and community tanks. It does not kill the bacteria in your tank as long as you make sure you use Prime or some such product. Excel does not kill fish or shrimp unless you use it at 8X the recommended amount (or some such nonsense). Cleaning your filter could kill bacteria if you used newly dechlorinated water and not your tank water. Or maybe he changed all the media and added all new so there was no bacteria in the filter except what was on the sides. That would also have spiked a bacterial bloom in his tank. Remember the nutrifying bacteria resides on all the tank / plant / media surfaces of the tank and not in the water. That's why water changes don't kill it, unless untreated.

There are some times of the year that the city will put massive quantities of chemical in the water and you won't know it. Many times it is after during a lot of rain. I have had a die off about 3 times with zebra danios and a few cardinals. This was pretty immediate - within about 5-10 minutes, after the water changes. I immediately added a little more Prime. Everyone else was fine. I believe it was a water quality issue, but nothing I could have avoided.

I have also fertilized on the same day as a water change with no ill effects. I have never had fertilizer kill any fish. I haven't experimented to see how much I would have to add to kill them however. 

I did have a bacterial bloom in my tank once. I uprooted many plants and also changed filter media. I didn't loose fish but I had to get my UV filter running to stop the bloom. All my fish were fine. 

I keep Najas sp Roraima in my tanks and it is a great nutrient hog. It is easy to control and will also help with any over abundance of nutrients. 

OP good luck with your tank. You are on the right track. Sorry about your fish.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

(I didn't know I was going to cause so much discussion otherwise I would have checked back more often)
I left the lighting the same, I hate asymmetry and it is 4 55w bulbs on 2 ballasts.
I did a ~%50 water change yesterday, added the 1/2 tsp potassium nitrate, 1/4 tsp of Mono, 60ml Excel and 20ml Flourish. I don't think I need to add Equilibrium if I do that large of a water change, do I?
I have been adding the excel 3x weekly (10ml) and the Flourish 2x weekly (20ml) (I think).
The beard and thread algaes have disappeared. There is still some fuzzy stuff that is on one of the Anubias rizomes.
There are some mollie babies, so that is usually a good indicator of acceptable water quality.
The anacharis went white, as expected, but I also had some crypt lutea that sort of just withered into a globby green mess. I have some swords that I cut back to nothing and they have shot out some leaves, but the viens are kinds of brownish
There appears to be a slight brown fuzz on some of the sword leaves.

To answer some of these questions - never changed the filter media, at least since putting that filter in place a few years ago. It was cleaned two weeks prior and about a week after the water change. It could be water system chlorine, but I added the appropriate amount of water conditioner at the same time. (Changes are done with a Python). I don't think it was anything within my control, unless some environmental issue I had, say dirty arms or something. I do rinse out the filter with tap water, never had an issue in the past. It just may be too much at the same time, or some combination of the chemicals created some reaction, or **** just happened. While it sounds a bit callous (or something) I don't blame anyone and I can get more.

alexopolus - what isn't natural about the setup? I will say it isn't natural in that it is a closed environment and it is it's own ecosystem. I would call it low tech, maybe only because I don't have CO2.

And I do appreciate everyones help


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Good to see two algaes are gone. 

The Lutea will bounce back. All it needs is the roots to remain intact and it will regrow. Don't worry about the early growth on the swords. They can look a little funky early in their growth.

The water change probably added enough Ca/Mg for your amount of growth. Just depends on your water source. Mg is the most important nutrient it provides. If you see dark green veins and washed out looking leaves together, try dosing a little and see if you see a difference within an hour. Mg uptake is fast. I don't see an issue with it from the two new pictures, though, so you're probably just fine.

The brown fuzz on the swords--if you can rub it off with a finger, it is probably brown diatoms. They will go away on their own.

The white fuzz on the anubias--are they single threads, or are they forked at all? It won't hurt the anubias to trim the roots to get rid of some of it. You might also want to trim down the cut stems closer to the rhizome, but don't lose sleep over it.

You could begin cutting back on the Excel and the size of the water changes over the next few weeks. At some point, you'll have to do something about the lights, or this may happen again. A less intense fixture, or if you can find a way to raise the lights.

Has the hygrophila polysperma shown better growth?


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

Ekrindul said:


> Good to see two algaes are gone.
> 
> The Lutea will bounce back. All it needs is the roots to remain intact and it will regrow. Don't worry about the early growth on the swords. They can look a little funky early in their growth.
> 
> ...


I will go with Excel for a little while, I have some and might as well try it out.
The hygrophila is doing better, not so balled up and growing towards the surface.
The fuzz on the anubias is too short to tell if it branches. The color is more grayish, could be dying off BBA or some such. A little time will tell

In starting this, I did rip and replace alot of plants, maybe the whole ecosystem just got pissed at me and revolted?

On the other comment, how are you supposed to clean the filter? The bioload for the size of tank it is is not great, there is a lot of surface for beneficial bacterial growth in the Eheim media, so I don't see how rinsing with tap water is going to kill that much, but I never thought about it and clean the filter once a month.


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

It is probably BBA or another thread type algae. They all tend to respond the same to Excel.

I clean the _filter pads_ in my filter with tap water, just because I want them as clean as possible. Although, recently, I have started using sponges on all my intakes. This way, I rarely need to open the filter to clean. I can just clean the sponges twice a week instead. Much, much quicker than messing with the filter.

The _media_ in the filter should always be cleaned with tank water, or at the very least, dechlorinated water; never tap.

If you had to remove a whole lot of plant mass, I'm sure there are many people in the club who can help you get some more plant mass. I can give you some rotala rotundafolia, or some stargrass, though I think they might not be the best choices for your tank. Hygrophilas of any kind would do well, or ludwigia repens or bacopa monneiri. The only one of those I have is one you already have, the polysperma.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Rinsing out the filter with tap water (untreated) will kill the bacteria in your filter. That, along with pulling out all the plants, releasing ammonia into your tank is probably what happened. 

Glad you are back on the right track! The stuff on your anubias roots is probably BBA dieing off. Good luck!


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Wow, what a discussion! Here are a few things which have come to mind while reading the thread.

1) We asked Steve to make signficiant changes to an established ecosystem. The combination of disturbances to the system through something or multiple things dangerously out of whack and killed some fish. It's sad, but it happens and I don't think anyone particular here is to blame. Sometimes these things happen and sometimes they don't. After years of experience most of us do things which prevent fish kills without even thinking about them even when we're making big changes to our tanks. 

My guess is the culprit is a major change to water chemistry due to significant disturbance of the substrate and replacement of the majority of old water which set off a chain of events that lead to low oxygen. It's worth noting that I've killed almost an entire 90g worth of fish by dosing Excel after a major change to the tank. It happens and until one has experienced it, it's unforeseeable.

Equilibrium CAN kill shrimp, I've done it all too often in the past. 

2) Steve, once you've started a dosing regimen in your tank, don't change it. Now that you're adding Excel, don't stop or you'll see your tank revert to a less healthy state. You're absolutely right that your aquarium is an ecosystem and you've just reset all of the input parameters. Your ecosystem is going to adjust to having those inputs. Keep up all of what you're adding and doing now. Stability and regularity is the key. 

4) Cut back to half lighting, ie 2 of the 4 bulbs; your plants are chlorotic. The amount of light you've got over your tank is pushing the plants' metabolism to a point past nutrient availablility. It's similar to an anorexic who runs all the time; the metabolism is running super hot but isn't getting anything to work with. Reducing light by half will slow down your plants' metabolism and will aid in creating a healthy equilibrium in your tank's ecosystem. DON'T REDUCE FERTILIZATION OR EXCEL YET! Your plants will grow more slowly, but you should see much healthier growth. 

5) Keep up your water changes now that you've started doing them. They're your greatest tool in maintaining that healthy equilibrium between light and nutrients. 

6) Again, don't change anything you're doing now for the next 6 months. Take this time to get to know your aquarium's habits. Once you know how the ecosystem responds to a regular maintenance regimen you'll be better prepared to guess at what's going wrong in your tank if/when things do start going downhill. 

7) CO2 is a good thing. There's no reason to fear using it in a planted aquarium. I'll be happy to talk to you about it further if you'd like.


Cheers,
Phil


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

Tex Gal said:


> Rinsing out the filter with tap water (untreated) will kill the bacteria in your filter. That, along with pulling out all the plants, releasing ammonia into your tank is probably what happened.
> 
> Glad you are back on the right track! The stuff on your anubias roots is probably BBA dieing off. Good luck!


Honestly, for the 40 years I have had aquariums, I have always rinsed the filter with tap water, just never thought about the ramifications or figured there is plenty of bacteria to go around and I won't kill them all?
But the filter wasn't cleaned until a few days after, so it isn't the culprit.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

I found out today that I can alter the ballast for the fluorescent lights so they only put out 45W each, that puts me at 180 Watts total, a bit closer to the lower wattages suggested.


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## digital_gods (Apr 23, 2010)

Let us know how you do that and how it goes.


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

under drive them maybe I have heard of it but have never seen it done. I've seen people over drive the ballast but never under drive it...


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

It was surprisingly easy.
The ballasts I have are sold by AH supply, so I am sure it may vary by manufacturer, etc.
There are two red wires running to each end cap and mated together with some other color (brown on mine). Remove one red from the three and put a cap (wire nut) on it. So now just the red and brown are wire-nutted together. If you do that to both pair of caps, it drops the wattage from 55W to 45W per bulb.
The guy at AH supply was real good at explaining what I could do and this solution gives even lighting across the whole tank.


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## steve worcester (Feb 17, 2011)

(sorry if you see this as a double post)
First, thank you all for your help, if you are ever in Plano, wanna have a beer, smoke a cigar, talk plants (or woodturning, or glass slumping..0 pm me.

My update.

I tried bleaching, Excel, and it melted the anacharis and some of the crypt lutea, as I/we predicted.

Started with a %50+ water change and added 2x the amount of Flourish Excel for a large change and started a routine

1x week - change %50 and add recommended Excel for large change (10ml per 20G=60ml for 120G tank) 
2x week, 20ML Flourish and 1/2 tsp KNO3 & 1/4 tsp KH2PO4
every other day 10ml Excel 
I was also able to talk to AH supply and he told me how to alter the ballasts so the bulbs (4x) are only putting out 40 watts each vs factory 55 watts.
I added about 5 small Siamese Algae eaters and a couple small spotted plecostemus. 
The anubias new growth is pretty clean and almost no spots of algae at all, the rosanervis has to be trimmed heavily at each water change, and we are once again seeing molly babies.
So, so far so good. I will probably continue this routine for the near future as it is fairly easy


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## Ekrindul (Jul 3, 2010)

Much nicer looking plant growth!


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## fishyjoe24 (May 18, 2010)

looking real good.


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