# Sticky  Flourish Excel got rid of all my algae



## Simpte 27

Well I finally found a local source of Flourish Excel. I was in the process of adding it into my tank when my little girl ran into me from behind. Needless to say I dumped quite a bit in. At least 5 times the recommended doseage. 2 days later my bba, spot, and green fuzz algae is gone. No sign of it anywhere. I think I like this stuff!


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## TomE

How about the rest of the life in the tank? Did they die too? Hmmm... Maybe my tank needs a little o.d. too :twisted:


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## trenac

I would not intentionally dose five times the recommend dose, but I'm glad it got rid of your algae (I'm trying to figure this one out). Make sure to keep the tank in-balance so the algae dose not reappear. I hope none of the fish was harmed.


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## niko

I should say that I got a similar experience.

I have a non-CO2 tank that has been clean for ages but the last 2 months or so I started adding Excel in a dose about 5 times the recommended about every 3 days.

Things were great no algae with the exception of very few bba spots.

After stopping the Excel bba, bga, and hair algae appeared.

I started dosing again and all 3 algae disappeared, only the bba is still there but less than before.

--Nikolay


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## Gomer

I was trying normal dosing of excel in my algae scape tank...it was effecting the cladophora as well. Now that I plan on trying moss instead of the clado, I'll be using excel to "clean up" the tank LOL.


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## Its_only_me

Glad to hear this. I thought it was just my imagination. I have some kind of algae that I wanted to keep on my mopani wood because the otos graze on it. But if that has to go to get rid of the other nuisance algaes, then so be it. 

I started adding just a regular dose of excel to my non-co2 20 long. Plants are growing better with it (especially my tiger val which dies off without it). 

However, I noticed that my beautiful green, velvet algae that the otos like, is dying off and going black/grey. I need to start scrubbing off those dead spots as it is quite unsightly. 

Has anyone had problems with their fish and Excel? I know that Flourish recommends a higher dose the first time, then a single dose therafter. 

I would like to up it, but would like to know if anyone has had trouble with their fish.


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## Simpte 27

The fish are fine. Nothing too sensative in there though. Cories, danios, a few white clouds. I added some rudolph and ghost shrimp (all we have in this area) and they are doing well also.


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## MantisX

Doesnt beat up on thread algae does it?


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## bharada

Can Excel be used to combat algae in a CO2 injected tank?


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## plantbrain

If you consider adding CO2, that wikll clear up most algae as well.
If you add CO2 to low light tanks, that will do a very good job as well.

I can induce some algae and try it on a high light CO2 excess tank, but then it becomes difficult to say if it was the CO2 or the Excel hat caused the decline.

If you induce the algae in the tank(How do you do this with BBA without the CO2 issues?) and have log growth phase occurring, then add the excel=> dead BBA, then you might be able to say something causes it.

Otherwise you need to kow how t induce it without CO2 issues(limiting in a tank etc).

If your tank already has issues and you correct them and the algae goes away, then it's not any different than CO2 near as I can tell.

Make sure you have good nutrients/CO2, generally algae ain't an issue there. If so and you are certain(I never am) that those parameters are in good shape and you still have algae.......then add it at higher levels and see. 

I've seen it/this occur as well, .......I ask why it occurs and also why the algae is there in the first place. 


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## AV8TOR

Just curious because I dose bottled CO2, but how high will Excell raise the CO2 to? Say even with a dose of 5x.


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## gnatster

Excell does not raise the CO2 level, it does increase the availability of Carbon.


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## John P.

CO2 levels ~30ppm (@ peak) decimated the Staghorn Algae that I had for a while after moving a tank, but I still have Thread & Hair Alagae. 

I'm curious if anything in Excel acts as an algaecide in a way that pressurized CO2 does not. I currently use pressurized CO2. Nutrients are all balanced, lighting period is 10 hrs/day (~3 watts/gallon), etc. Can't figure out what could be causing it & would rather spend a little $ on Excel if it would get rif of the algae.


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## plantbrain

I don't think it would hurt, but then again, careful dosinjg of many things will kill the targetted algae, whikle leaving the plants alone.
Copper has been used for over 60 years, H2O2 hs been used for over a decade, perhaps longer. Dips have been for about the same time.

A good prune, rotate to substrate under, corrected conditions have always worked and the algae has gone away. Bleach any equipment with it attached etc, clean things good.

That will make the tank look better, harassing the algae only here and there or little does no good. A good attack will really do it in.

Excel will not add enough carbon to the plant's needs to drive high light tanks. It takes longer for the plants to use it than CO2.


If the tank has high CO2 and you are certain of it and good nutrient levels and you are sure, and the algae is actively growing, then adding it might show a cause=effect without other confounding issues.

Be careful in assuming something caused something else.
PO4 can get rid of algae too after all

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Simpte 27

The tank does have CO2 (although it hasn't been steady over the last 2 weeks before starting with excel. It was fluctuating from 12ppm to 18 ppm. It is now a steady 23-28ppm so I'm sure increased CO2 helped. The problem (or question) I see is with the increase in CO2, the bba was still there but not expanding at all. With the addition of flourish excel, it not only halted, but has completely left the tank. My question is does the co2 directly affect algae the way h2o2 does or allow plants to outcompete algae for nutrients. If the latter is more accurate, then how and why? Algaes need very little nutrients to thrive (even less than most of us can measure). I'm beginning to think that carbon (in either form) directly affects algae. And is there a direct relation to the amount of carbon vs nitrogen in a tank? Does carbon prevent algae from fixing nitrogen? Back to the net for research......


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## John P.

Simpte -- that's what I'm wondering, too. I've read a lot of writings/interviews with the Seachem founder about Excel (as well as the FAQs on their site), and he always dances around the "algaecide" topic for legislative reasons. He also states that the reason it affects algae is clear. I wish it were clearer.

As Tom states, though, raising CO2 enough also affects algae. Maybe I'll call Seachem today for some input from them.

Also, Tom, I have a Glosso lawn where the majority of the hair algae embeds in the EcoComplete. I hope I don't have to dig it all up to get rid of it. I already 86d almost all of my Java Moss & Rotala to attack the Thread Algae.


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## Gomer

I would say that Excel does indeed act as an algaecide. If it has the ability to kill clado, that is all the proof I need LOL.


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## John P.

I just spoke with "Rusty" at Seachem--he kept the party line about not going into detail about how it _might _work to combat algae.

Nice guy, though! 

I guess I'll buy it to see for myself. The Otos & Shrimp are going to hate me for doing this (if it works).


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## Its_only_me

One theory on how it acts against algae is that the organic carbon enables the plants to steal the nutrients from the algae.


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## plantbrain

We tried on a victim's tank using CO2 etc.
Did not do anything. 2x the rec dosage. I'm leary about the fish and have no test tanks without fish to try higher dosing. If the fish die in the process, so what.......I can use a number of things then........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## John P.

I bought 500mL of Excel last night. Today was day 1 of the "experiment." Hugely unscientific, but why not.

I'm not ODing b/c I have a lot of animals in there, including shrimp.

We'll see.


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## baj

I just blasted 3x the amount in a 18g tank, 30ml instead of 10ml, fish are happy, plants are happy, algae are happy (not that I had a SL, but whatever was there remained), do you guys repeatedly OD to get results, like maybe 3x for a week or so?


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## Gomer

The effects I saw were not immediate but was noticable after about my 3rd overdose in a week. Cladophora was getting white "burned" ends (the bottom half survived since I stopped dosing, but the top half melted away. The BBA started to turn weird colors as if it was bleaching out.


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## pineapple

To get the algaecidal effect in a 30 US gallon aquarium I was dosing 15ml every day. Normally, I would dose 15ml after a water change of 50% and 5ml every day thereafter. If you see a demise in water quality, back off the dosing amount.

Andrew Cribb


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## Gomer

Am am doing 15ml every other day on my 30 righ now actually. I am on my 3rd dose and I am seeing all sorts of BBA turning red.


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## John P.

Gomer said:


> Am am doing 15ml every other day on my 30 righ now actually. I am on my 3rd dose and I am seeing all sorts of BBA turning red.


That much & the shrimp are okay, eh? Wow. Did you slowly work your way up to that level?

-Yesterday I dosed 11 mL in my 26-G
-Today I dosed 3 mL

I guess I'll try 11 mL tomorrow & will see what happens.


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## Gomer

Shrimp all seem ok.

Seachem recommends 5ml/10g at major water changes and 1ml/10g daily. This works out to 15ml and 3ml/day. Over a week, it is a total of 33ml. I dose a total of 45 over a week with 40-50% weekly water changes. Instead of hitting the algae with a 45cal followed by a pellet gun daily, I hit it 3 times a week with a 45cal. 

I am out of excel now but will have more this time next week (big als order) and will continue the dosing and report back.


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## plantbrain

Gomer said:


> Shrimp all seem ok.
> 
> Seachem recommends 5ml/10g at major water changes and 1ml/10g daily. This works out to 15ml and 3ml/day. Over a week, it is a total of 33ml. I dose a total of 45 over a week with 40-50% weekly water changes. Instead of hitting the algae with a 45cal followed by a pellet gun daily, I hit it 3 times a week with a 45cal.
> 
> I am out of excel now but will have more this time next week (big als order) and will continue the dosing and report back.


So your shrimp are fine and other fish as well?
Did you try this on that algae tank you entered??
I need some algae to work with and it'll be awhile before I have that chance.

I find it interesting and have an idea of the mode of action.
Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## John P.

-Tuesday I dosed 11 mL in my 26-G 
-Wednesday I dosed 3 mL 
-Today (Thursday) I does 8 mL

One adult female (pregnant) Cherry Shrimp is barely clinging to life right now.* The rest of the shrimp (~30+) are perfectly fine & normal. 15 Cardinal Tetras, 3 Harlequin Rasboras, and 2 Otos all fine, too.

Could be a coincidence. I've always noted that the pregnant shrimp sometimes die for seemingly no reason. However, I've recently bumped up my CO2 levels and increased my fert dosage, too. So who knows.

* I have her out of the tank w/a water change & aeration. This is craziness!


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## Gomer

plantbrain said:


> So your shrimp are fine and other fish as well?
> Did you try this on that algae tank you entered??
> I need some algae to work with and it'll be awhile before I have that chance.
> 
> I find it interesting and have an idea of the mode of action.
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


My shrimp are perfectly fine. I had some fish die due to something unrelated. An order of fish from AZ gardens coinciced with an outbreak of Saprolegnia (?). Last time I did excel dosing with a healthy fish tank, no casualties whatsoever.

This is done on the algae tank. The clado is much more resistant to the excel than the BBA (virtually of it in the tank is now a heu of red), but it is effected. Also need to monitor the staghorn that also is in there. I forgot to look for it (perhaps cause it was already effected and gone so I didn't notice it?_


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## plantbrain

Interesting to note the selective effects on the BBA vs the Cladophora. 
I'll tell you this much, there is nothing in the literature about BBA/Cladpohora and aquatic vascular plant effects/impacts or anything closely related.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## chiahead

I started overdosing the excel to see if it would help my thread/hair algae problem. It has really helped, the algae is only on a few leaves now. My problem is that I am getting a cloudy tank now. Is this normal on the overdosing of Excel? I assume I should hold off until the cloudyness dissappears. I cant find any statements relating to this issue though.


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## pineapple

I noticed that cloudiness only came about as a result of persistent use of Flourish Excel in doses higher than those recommended by Seachem - such as when used in an attempt to kill off algae. I have soft water and consider it to be a bit more sensitive. My interpretation is that continual high doses have an effect on the biological filtration as supplied by a cannister filter, for instance. Stopping the over-dosing or perhaps lowering the dosage quantity will restore the water quality plus or minus a water change.

Consider that using overdoses of Flourish Excel to rid an aquarium of algae is only a quick fix. The source of the problem in the first place needs to be addressed.

The same can be said for using H2O2 - hydrogen peroxide.

Andrew Cribb


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## turtlehead

after you od on excel the tank will get a little cloudy, but it does kill off the algae particularly fuzz and green spot algae, haven't seen it for about a week now.


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## robitreef

Another question for all of you who are having these algae problems.... what type of water are you using? Straight tap water or RO/DI?


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## Simpte 27

I tried straight tap but that was extremely hard (gh of 33+) So I switched to straight R.O. on the first 3 water changes. Now I use a mixture of 80% R.O. and 20 % tap. My tap has nitrates of 6 also. It so hard it leaves sediment in the bottom of a glass if left overnight. I had a BBA problem which was probably introduced through infected plants but none since.


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## robitreef

Simpte 27,

Are you using CO2 in your tank? I use all RO/DI, but I want to switch to a CO2 unit, and I don't want my pH to decrease drastically. Are you adding buffer to balance your pH or is the tap doing the trick. Was the algae more problematic when you used all tap vs. RO/DI?


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## JLudwig

Hey gang... did a 3x dose at a change (my CO2 regulator broke over the holidays!) and boy did this work... got the clouding, looked to be a bacterial explosion to me, ran my UV for a few days, everything cleared up now. It did almost nuke my Riccia, Hemianthus m. was effected a little bit but it knocked a huge BBA infestation back off. Lost a Corydoras, laboured breathing from some others but after another change they recovered nicely... 3x might be a little much, perhaps a double dose is more reasonable.

Oddly enough my plants stopped perling when the levels were really high but that wasn't just lack of light, there was something else "fishy" going on altho growth rates were otherwise excellent. As already mentioned, this isn't a long term fix but if something catastrophic happens this can speed recovery time and it has cleared established BBA (this was a huge problem for me, I've been able to out-grow everything other type of algae). In similar situations like this I've also used AlgaeFix at recommended dosage and I know of someone else using copper (did not kill shrimp! YMMV) so I think we now have three solid selective weapons for recovering from a slipup.

Jeff


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## daddyo72

Fascinating! I'm learning quite a lot. I'm quickly learning there is no substitute for flourish.


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## Robert B

I also did the 3x dose for two weeks and the tank is almost algae free now. I was adding 15ml every other day to my 30 gallon and this tank was really bad with algae. It didn't really seem to kill the algae but it made it very easy to remove. My mayaca was completely covered in slimely hair algae and I was able to remove all of it at once. It all came out in one big handful. I had ereocaluans that were covered in BBA and I was able to just wave my hand above them and 95% of the BBA just fell right off the plants. The only plants that seemed not to like the excel was my Tonina sp. belem but it may have been shading that was causing the problems with them and not the excel because they are looking fine now. 

I will try to put up some before and after pics early next week.

Robert. (bobo31)


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## Simpte 27

robitreef said:


> Simpte 27,
> 
> Are you using CO2 in your tank? I use all RO/DI, but I want to switch to a CO2 unit, and I don't want my pH to decrease drastically. Are you adding buffer to balance your pH or is the tap doing the trick. Was the algae more problematic when you used all tap vs. RO/DI?


More problematic when I used tap. Since the change, algae has not reappeared. I use DIY Co2. Just gotta be more adamite and persistant about changing bottles.


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## david lim

I remember there was a discussion long ago on APD where many people, Tom included, were trying to figure out what was in Excel to make it like an algaecide. I believe the consensus from seachem's limited information was that they were using a sugar for a carbon source that was difficult for plants to take up but nearly impossible as a carbon source for algae. I don't think seachem was willing though to leak out what sugar complexes they were using. Am I right, tom?

Anyway, the stuff works great, especially in lower lit tanks, as many people are finding out !


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## pineapple

"Lower lit tanks"

Algae in lower lit tanks = an oxymoron.

Andrew Cribb


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## david lim

Guess "lower lit" depends on interpretation. I meant tanks around 2.0 W/g as opposed to higher lit tanks >3 W/g. I still got algae at 2.0 W/g but that was long ago.

But then again I see people with algae all over their tanks and they'll be running <1 W/g, but then again those were bait tanks.


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## robitreef

Sorry to bring an old post back to life, but how is Excel on combatting green algae on the glass of the aqurium? It has been a PITA to scrape off the glass for me.


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## MatPat

At risk you getting off topic...if you want to remove green spot algae from the glass and leaves of anubias, try keeping you PO4 levels around 2ppm. This has worked for me since mid-December. I only clean my glass maybe once a month and it isn't due to green spot algae.

Just be aware that you may have to add more NO3 once you increase the PO4. Keep an eye on your levels for a while until they begin to stabilize.


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## gpodio

david lim said:


> I remember there was a discussion long ago on APD where many people, Tom included, were trying to figure out what was in Excel to make it like an algaecide. I believe the consensus from seachem's limited information was that they were using a sugar for a carbon source that was difficult for plants to take up but nearly impossible as a carbon source for algae. I don't think seachem was willing though to leak out what sugar complexes they were using. Am I right, tom?
> 
> Anyway, the stuff works great, especially in lower lit tanks, as many people are finding out !


I agree the stuff works, and I feel Glutaraldehyde may be the reason why.... while I had never heard of the active ingredient polycycloglutaracetal before, in reading the MSDS for Seachem products, Excel is declaired to contain Glutaraldehyde as a principal ingredient. Glutaraldehyde is a chemical many of us probably already know about, it's uses range from disinfectants, to embalming solutions... to biocides.

It has many properties that I feel could explain some of the mysteries of Excel. For example, it has been tested to sterilize ballast water in ships so that organisms are not spread from one country to another. It doesn't accumulate so it's of no danger to the environment. Algae is effected at very low concentrations, one document for example states 200 times lower than the required concentration to kill amphipods. It is quickly broken down by bacteria to simpler forms, such as carbon dioxide.

I'm not sure, but the effects of Excel seem to be in line with the effects one would expect to have from small regular doses of Glutaraldehyde. Perhaps the Glutaraldehyde is being used to preserve the polycycloglutaracetal but has these "side effects" so to speak. Perhaps they both provide carbon sources, while the Glutaraldehyde is also causing our algae to suffer...

Giancarlo Podio


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## cousinkenni

Hey guys, 

Sorry to bring this thread back to life, but I just read GPodio's last post and wanted to add something..........

Here at the cancer research center we use 650uL of 37% Gluteraldehyde in 25mL of media to completely kill and fix (crosslink) every protein in the cells. In your terms that means less than 1% Gluteraldehyde can kill and FIX protein. I would suspect way less is required to kill them alone.

The stuff is very potent!

Ken T.


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## m.lemay

I just bought some Excel from Drs Foster And Smith on sale, 2 liters for $19.99. 

I got a glosso mat in trade from someone that seems to have introduced Staghorn to my tank. The staghorn is growing intermingled in the glosso. I'm gonna try this excel therapy for a week or 2 to see if it works out. I'm using the EI method of fertilizing , my ferts and CO2 are all in excess. 

The plants are doing quite well but this staghorn just popped outta no where, never had it before, I wanna squash it before it hets outta hand. I'll keep you updated on progress.

How much, and how often would you dose on a 75Gal?

Marcel


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## chiahead

the deal is to triple the recomended dose. So, I think its 5ml for 10 gal so 35 to 40 ml for initial and then 21 to 24 ml after that. When you overdose the excel you will in a few days get a cloudy tank. When that happens stop the excel and do a water change. If the algea persists then repeat for another week. I add excel daily just to help keep algea at bay. Good luck, be careful if you have sensitive fauna, it can cause a co2 excess and choke the O2 from them.


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## John P.

It's not CO2, so how would it cause an excess?

I'm timid about using 15 mL everyday on a 26-G (loaded with shrimp). That said, my dosing seems to have stalled my Cladophora algae--not erased it from the tank. Some of it has lost it's green coloration.

Maybe I'll add more.


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## chiahead

I dont know what it does but when I overdosed excessively it did cause what it looked like was Co2 poisoning. I am not a chemist but thats what happened. I used it and my shrimp were fine. If the algea has stalled and changed colors then it is prob dying. Shouldnt be long and u will see it start to break apart. Good luck.


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## JLudwig

chiahead said:


> I dont know what it does but when I overdosed excessively it did cause what it looked like was Co2 poisoning.


My experience has been similar, not sure exactly why this might have happened. My other guess what the rapid die-off produces lots of NH3 that either affected the fish directly or (I think more likely) a rapid bacteria bloom really raised the dissolved oxgen demand on the system... a few large water changes resolved this problem.

Jeff


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## david lim

cousinkenni said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Sorry to bring this thread back to life, but I just read GPodio's last post and wanted to add something..........
> 
> Here at the cancer research center we use 650uL of 37% Gluteraldehyde in 25mL of media to completely kill and fix (crosslink) every protein in the cells. In your terms that means less than 1% Gluteraldehyde can kill and FIX protein. I would suspect way less is required to kill them alone.
> 
> The stuff is very potent!
> 
> Ken T.


What cell types are you researching on? Hmm.... I didn't know about gluteraldehyde. It is kind of scary, but as long as I don't drink the stuff I should be ok, right? I always tell my friends that the tank water is cleaner than the tap. Maybe I shouldn't do that anymore.

Should Excel then not be recommended for unestablished tanks?


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## cousinkenni

Hey David,

We Research Neuroblastoma (A childhood cancer) on cells such as Lan-5, LHN, SKNSH (all neuroblastoma cell lines) and Hela cells (a cervical cancer cell line). 

About Gluteraldehyde........... Here in lab we always have to use it in the fume hood because just by breathing in the vapor you can fix the cells that line your nostrals. (So I wouldn't go around directly inhaling the Excel).

As for unestablished tanks I don't think it would really hurt anything when used in the concentrations listed on the bottle or here on the forum.

Ken T.


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## gpodio

I'm sure the concentrations we are talking about are not very dangerous, otherwise there would be a warning I'm sure. I see no problem using Excel in any tank, established or not, I've used it in several tanks, new and old, and has always worked well for me. I've also used double to tripple the recommended dose and didn't notice any ill effects.

I think it will be on the shelves for some time to come, it is not a secret that it contains this chemical and it's not the only aquarium product that uses such chemical for one purpose or another.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Bavarian3

gpodio said:


> I think it will be on the shelves for some time to come, it is not a secret that it contains this chemical and it's not the only aquarium product that uses such chemical for one purpose or another.
> 
> Giancarlo Podio


what chemical is excel using? (sorry i didnt read through the whole thread)


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## Mnemia

Seachem also does post a MSDS for Excel and all their products on their site. I've read through it before, and I get the impression that the concentration is far too low for it to be seriously dangerous. I wouldn't go inhaling it, but the chemicals in question are not at anything like the concentration they are in a hospital setting. Excel is dilute so that it won't be dangerous to your fish, plants, or you. I also think it may have some stabilizing agents to reduce the volatility of the dangerous stuff.


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## Zackie

*Effects on fish*

In surfing the thread, it seem as though none of you have had a problem with Excel in excess. My experience has been quite different. In my 120 Amazon biotope with wild brown discus, etc. I dosed at 2X and by the next day the discus made it clear that they were in severe stress--dark color, discolored patterns in the mucus coat, etc. I worked like a fool to get two filters going with carbon while preparing some more RO water for a partial change. After the carbon treatment and water changes, the glass covers over with algae in a matter of days so I'm at square one to get nutrients in some semblance of balance again. Beware with wild caught fish in RO water...IMHO

I will add that in my 20 gallon, with RO water as well but with only some small barbs, characins and Cory's, the effect of the Excel was amazing. Killed the damn BBA that has plagued that tank for years and the fish and other plants continue to thrive.

Bob

(Zackie is one of my Collies)


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## MrHarris

I use Flourish Excel on all my tanks regularly. Sometimes I do overdose, no harm done. Plants seem great, so why stop using it?


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## Momotaro

Glutaraldehyde is a chemical that is used for cold sterilization of medical and dental tools, used in tanning hides, and as a chemical preservative.

Glutaraldehyde can also used as an alternative to formaldehyde in embalming fluid, although it is not the norm. Glutaraldehyde is a superior fixant, disinfectant and (more in line with this discussion) sporicide. 

With the relationship between glutaraldehyde and formaldehyde established, makes me wonder if Flourish Excel could have an effect on ick as well? After all, Formalin is the main component in many ick treatments. Quik Cure for instance. Just something else to ponder.

Now Flourish Excel appears to be a glutaraldehyde based compound, not gluteraldehyde solely.

Pardon my digression.

I have noticed a recent spate of BBA in my 75G, with the Blyxa japonica being the sole plant effected. I am going to join the grand experiment. 

The general consensus is 2x to 3x the recommended dosage? I want to be in line with the rest of you to keep the process "scientific", so to speak. For my 75G that means 70ml/105ml on water change and 14ml/21ml three times a week? How long of a dosing period? 

Also, any reasons to believe UV would have an effect on Flourish Excel?

Mike


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## John P.

Hi Mike,

What are you doing over here? 

I've been using 15 mL on a 26-G daily with no problems. Essentially a little more than the initial dose recommended by Seachem, but every day.


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## MatPat

Mike,

To combat the BBA in my 75g (mainly on my driftwood), I used 30ml of Excel every day for seven days. I didn't do a large Excel dose after the water change or skip any days, just 30ml each day until the next water change. It worked very well but I do have one patch of BBA coming back on my driftwood. I probably should have went 10 days or so of Excel addition but the BBA was not noticeable to the eye so I stopped at day 7.


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## GillMan

I started dosing 3X Excel last Tuesday, on my 90 gal. tank, which was slow in getting rid of the short green filamentous aglae pest. As of Saturday night, I had very little algae build up on my inside panes. All inhabitants are doing fine, except the algae of course. I plan on dosing for two weeks, maybe longer. I like the idea of adding a calvin cycle intermediary, perhaps to increase growth rates, especially after heavy pruning, which I did when I started dosing Excel. We'll see. Any more updates from longer term users?


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## gpodio

As you can see from the MSDS (http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS.pdf) the following products all contain glutaraldehyde:



> ParaGuard, HealthGuard , Pond HealthGuard, Flourish Excel, StressGuard [NFPA 1,0,1]:
> Principal ingredient is glutaraldehyde with ameliorating ingredients, pH 7. ParaGuard also contains malachite green. Malachite green is a
> possible carcinogen. Ingestion may cause severe gastric disturbance. May cause moderate irritation of mouth. If ingested, drink large
> quantities of milk or water. Universal antidote (charcoal) is useful. If enough is swallowed to cause distress, seek medical attention. Eye
> contact will cause severe irritation. Flush eyes copiously with water. Seek medical attention.


I have been using Excel for some time however in one tank as the exclusive source of carbon. In this tank (2.5gals) I have varied the dose from 1ml daily to 1ml every 2-3 days without any problems for the plants or snails in the tank. I did try 2ml daily but I noticed some minor problems starting to form with some of the plants so I didn't keep that up for long. Algae, not a trace. Plants (including Hemianthus Callitrichoides) are doing well.

I'm not sure what effect UV has on Excel, but we do know that glutaraldehyde is a very unstable element and breaks down quickly, so it's lifespan is already known to be very limited, that's why frequent doses are required.

Giancarlo Podio


----------



## jsenske

Just throwing my 2cents in... Excel has workd for me also in getting rid of nuisance algae. 2-3Xs recommended daily dose is what I have used. The only area it was not too successful for me was in really large tanks- 300+ gallons. 20-135gal. range it has worked good.


----------



## Jason Baliban

I have been using excel for about 3 days now. I am dosing 3x the recommended on a 46 gallon tank. Already, the BBA is turning red on the tips. I dont know what this means, but I see that it has happened to others as well. I should also say that I am already using pressurized CO2.....maintaining 30++ppm. Any thoughts or comments on this? I will update again in a few days.
Thanks
jB


----------



## gpodio

Hi Jason, this is a clear sign that it's dying, it always turns red/pink when it's suffering. At some stage your fish will likely start picking at it.

So based on your experience so far and that of Jeff, it's safe to assume 3x the recommended dose causes no visible ill effects on the fish? I don't see any reason to use higher concentrations as even 2x the dose seems to be effective.

Thanks
Giancarlo Podio


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## Jason Baliban

Thanks GP!! That is great news then. I have read others us this treatment for 10 days. I will surely keep you all posted. Here is a very very bad pic I snapped yesterday. Yesterday was day 3 and you can already see how it is efffecting the color of the BBA.










jB


----------



## algae

Momotaro mentioned:


> I have noticed a recent spate of BBA in my 75G, with the Blyxa japonica being the sole plant effected. I am going to join the grand experiment.


.
Is it possible, in applying the dosage, to specifically target the offender? ...Like with an underwater atomizer or some such that can be aimed at the one affected subject?


----------



## gpodio

I use H2O2 as a spot treatment, very effective but Excel would be a better solution to treat the entire tank.

Here's a link to the H2O2 treatment
http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.asp

Giancarlo Podio


----------



## John P.

I used a dosing pipette deal to spot treat with Excel. It knocked out GSA and BBA (it took 2-3 days, but it worked).


----------



## Osteomata

Regarding the health risk/safety of Flourish Excel: I have most of the Flourish line sitting in front of me right now, and I note that only the Excel bottle has a child proof cap. hmmm. If only I can figure out how to open it.

I'll add my completely unscientific test to this thread to help build a data base for us. I prefer a more gentle approach, so I will dose 2 times recommended amount for a week and see how it goes. I am combatting extensive hair/fuzz algae on the upper portions of my stem plants, a bit of staghorn on my crypt, and I noticed my first spots of BBA yesterday on my rotundifolia. Mild green spot, but very clear water and mostly clear glass.

Given Giancarlo's excellent link on H2O2 treatment, I'm not sure why we are not just trying that, seems a whole lot cheaper. Any comments from H2O2 users?

Final comment: I suspect we are all contributing to the evolutionary development of super algae, resistant to all known treatments, by our introduction of a species crisis sure to add weight to the punctuated equalibrium sub-theory. Stephen Jay Gould roles in his grave.


----------



## gpodio

Osteomata said:


> Given Giancarlo's excellent link on H2O2 treatment, I'm not sure why we are not just trying that, seems a whole lot cheaper. Any comments from H2O2 users?


My opinion is that while H2O2 is very effective it will likely cause problems if used long term. This is where Excel shines, while it is not as strong it can be used long term to provide organic carbon, reduce iron and keep algae at bay. I think both methods have their place and purpose depending on your particular situation.



> Final comment: I suspect we are all contributing to the evolutionary development of super algae, resistant to all known treatments, by our introduction of a species crisis sure to add weight to the punctuated equalibrium sub-theory. Stephen Jay Gould roles in his grave.


I would think if you persist with the chosen treatment until it is all dead you will not contribute to any changes in it's evolution. If you dose insufficiently and keep the algae struggling but alive then we run that risk. Not sure if it's possible to build a resistance to H2O2 though...?

Giancarlo Podio


----------



## Jason Baliban

UPDATE: Today will end my 10 day overdosing of excell. I must say that I am very impressed. All of my BBA has been reduced to almost nothing. I am slowly removing all of the affected leaves from my tank. The BBA is still on the leaves, but it is not spreading and doesnt look to be alive. In retrospect, I wish that I had a control for the experiment. I am a skeptic at heart and I feel that maybe I had this success because I got my ferts in line and my plants are growing well. All in all, I would say it was a success.
jB


----------



## gnatster

What happens when you stop dosing the exel though.. does it come back?


----------



## discus

With respect to algea developing a resistance my personal experience a few months back was that my algea did in fact become resistant. Whenever i did a bleach dip the bleach would pull away to the sides of the bucket just like the grease does in that dishwashing soap ad. Not even the bleach wanted to touch the algea.

Just some algea humour.


----------



## Osteomata

Im on day 3 of a daily double dose excel test in my 15G. Here is my results after 2 days:
- Noticable reduction in hair algae, and it clearly was not as well attached to the plants. 
- I physically removed 3 leaves with BBA on day one, and i have not seen any new BBA yet....
- Staghorn algea is thriving, not yet affected at all. Ill give it another 5 days and see how it goes.

I began my new fertilization routine today, trying to adapt my nearly full line of Flourish products to the EI method (at least until I get some dry macros). The idea, as recommended in this thread, is not just to kill off the existing algae, but to also adjust the conditions that allowed it in the first place. While my algea gave me a clear indication of a nutrient imbalance, my testing confirmed it: 5ppm Nitrate, no discernable PO4.


----------



## motifone

*dosing for a 50g*

Oh boy, another forum to read  I've posted this over at my usual stomping ground, Plantedtank.net, but figured I would ask here too because of all the activity on this subject:

Per Seachem's website, normal dosing of Excel is as follows:

"On initial use or after a major (>40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons). Thereafter use 1capful (5ml) for every 200 L (50 gallons) daily or every other day."

When determining a 2x or 3x dose for my 50 gallon tank, which of the above dosage rules do I go by? If I go by the 1 capful (5ml) for every 50 gallons, then a 2x dose for my 50g would be 10ml and a 3x dose for my 50g would be 15ml? Yes? I plan to dose daily for 10-14 days.

I can't figure out how some of you folks arrived at doses like 25ml for a 75g as mentioned in this thread, or others I've read like, 15ml in a 30g, or 30ml in a 18g.

Basically, what would you recommend as 2x and 3x dosages for my 50g? Also, sounds like I shoud expect cloudiness during the treatment? If so, do I stick to my normal once a week water change routine or do a special "emergency" partial water change?

thanks, .. and thanks for letting me join the board!


----------



## chiahead

well the initial dose would be 5ml x 50 g which would be 5ml x 5(50/10=5) or 25ml. So double that would be 50ml and triple is 75ml. After that the following dosage is 5ml for 50g so double would be 10ml and triple is 15ml. I would just do 2-3 times the recomended dosage. Hope this helped u. For example in my 80 g I dose 24 ml daily as my triple dosage.


----------



## GillMan

I don't think anyone is taking the initial dosing per instructions into consideration but rather just starting the regular dosing multiplied by whatever factor of our choosing. I started 3x dosing (30 ml for 90g, rounded to 100g), for three weeks. Got the green dust-like algae under control but the green dot algae was using it as suntan lotion. :smile: So, now, on week four, I started 5x (50 ml) dosing and the green dot is starting to take a hit and no cloudy water. I got a 2L bottle online so I can go for weeks still. The plants are actually looking great as well.


----------



## gpodio

I agree, I would not double the "Initial" dose stated on the bottle, just the regular dose. I've been triggering some algae blooms in one of my tanks to "play" with this method and I must admit even the single dose is quite effective on thread and hair algae. Don't have any BBA to try it on though. If you have a little patience I would probably start with the regular recommended dose and see if you need to increase it after that.

Someone I know mistakenly put 125ml of Excel in their 75 gallon tank with disasterous results. I'm not sure what the maximum dose would be before running into problems but as it seems, 1x-2x the recommended dose is working so I see no reason to risk higher concentrations unless these doses are not working for you. Some fish may be more sensitive than others too so only time will tell. The more people post their experience with Excel here the better!

Giancarlo Podio


----------



## Osteomata

I am too scared to double/triple the initial dose. I used the recommended initial and am simply doubling/tripling the follow on dosage.

But there do seem to be some people doubling the initial. Read back several pages and it is apparent someone did it.


----------



## Osteomata

Day 5 of my double dose Excel treatment (did NOT double the initial dose, only the follow on doses):

Fuzz/Hair Algae: Amost gone. The tops of some of my stem plants and the top portion of my moss branch looked like green cotton balls when I started, now I just have remnants left. The algae intertwined with the moss is proving most resistant, but it is very much reduced.

Green Spot: I cleaned most of the tank walls before I started, and no new spot algae has appeared on the walls.

BBA: Physically removed the few affected leaves at the beginning of the treatment, no new contaminated leaves that I can see yet...

Staghorn: It resisted hard for 4 days, but today I see reduction and red patches along the staghorn stems, its dieing.

I also started my new fert routine (EI) 3 days ago, so that may be helping as well.


----------



## Laith

Excel is an alternate source of carbon for the plants isn't it? Therefore would one get similar results by raising the CO2 concentration in the tanks?

Tom Barr recommends higher CO2 levels to combat BBA and I've tried it, it works.

Or is there another ingredient in the Excel that acts likes an algaecide? I don't have access to the Seachem line of products so I've never tried it.


----------



## gpodio

Laith said:


> Excel is an alternate source of carbon for the plants isn't it? Therefore would one get similar results by raising the CO2 concentration in the tanks?
> 
> Tom Barr recommends higher CO2 levels to combat BBA and I've tried it, it works.
> 
> Or is there another ingredient in the Excel that acts likes an algaecide? I don't have access to the Seachem line of products so I've never tried it.


While it's true that proper CO2 levels will help sove algae problems, CO2 gas does not actually act as an algaecide, it just puts the plants in the right conditions to outcompete algae. It certainly is one of the key players in getting things right and avoiding algae problems to beggin with.

Excel on the other hand is a chemical product that supplies a source of organic carbon and also has algaecidal properties or side effects....

If I had to summarize the two, I'd say Excel is a great long term source of carbon for non-CO2 (gas) enriched tanks and also appears to do some good in CO2 enriched tanks as well. Excel can also be used short term in larger doses to eliminate algae caused by whatever reason, in both CO2 and non-CO2 enriched tanks, but I would not consider this to be a "solution" to an algae problem, just another way to kill the algae that's there. The long term solution is getting the fertilization right for your tank so that the algae doesn't develop in the first place. "Getting things right" covers all nutrient levels, however as Tom advocates, CO2 is indeed one of the more important elements and often the hardest to provide in good quantities. CO2 deficiency does indeed appear to favor the growth of BBA and in most cases raising the CO2 concentration solves this problem.

Obviously one could use Excel indefinetly in a CO2 enriched tank as an aid in controlling algae in general but there may be long term side effects that we are not aware of yet, caution is always important when dealing with such chemicals.

This is the post I made on page two of this thread regarding the content of Excel and what I feel may be the reason behind this algaecidal property:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=36497&postcount=50

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio


----------



## Laith

Ok, must have missed that post re the ingredients and what you say Giancarlo makes perfect sense.

Like I said, I've never tried it so I can only go on the various experiments that have been reported on here. From what I'm hearing here and elsewhere it does seem to have an effect on algae.

However, I would just caution anyone thinking that this is the magic solution to all algae problems and you just need to pour this stuff in to get a great tank :? . As with any "algae killing" methodology, it needs to be backed up with finding the root cause and fixing it...


----------



## skids

FYI on this chemical. It is used by protein crystallographers and protein chemist to cross-link amino acids in a protein for structural studies. It is a mild crosslinker, but this is part of it's usefullness in embalming corpses.

As such it is technically poison for anything with amino acids, ie, algae, fish , your fingers, etc. 

The question is dose. We did increasing concentrations of molarity, time and temperature to control it's reaction to cross link our protein of interest in test tubes. Your tank is a big test tube. 

Avoid overdosing massive amounts. Hence the label warning. But these low doses are probably effecting algae first because they either uptake the glutaraldehyde faster than the fish (due to higher cell wall permeability perhaps?) or maybe the fishes livers can detox the low levels, but algae lack the necessary methyltransferases to start the detox breakdown pathway.

This is a very interesting thread. I use excel at normal dose in 3 tanks, one does great but other has Rotala indica which doesn't seem to respond to it, but I have never tried upping the dose. I use 1ml/10g each 2d (normal dose)

I am now very interested in putting 11-17ml in my 75 long (57 actual) with a current hair algae problem.


----------



## plantbrain

niko said:


> I should say that I got a similar experience.
> 
> I have a non-CO2 tank that has been clean for ages but the last 2 months or so I started adding Excel in a dose about 5 times the recommended about every 3 days.
> 
> Things were great no algae with the exception of very few bba spots.
> 
> After stopping the Excel bba, bga, and hair algae appeared.
> 
> I started dosing again and all 3 algae disappeared, only the bba is still there but less than before.
> 
> --Nikolay


So was it a "lack of carbon" or the Excel cured the algae issue?
Like adding enough CO2 to prevent algae by allowing the plants not to be carbon limited..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## gpodio

plantbrain said:


> So was it a "lack of carbon" or the Excel cured the algae issue?
> Like adding enough CO2 to prevent algae by allowing the plants not to be carbon limited..........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hi Tom,

In my tests it appeared it was the Excel which had a direct effect on the algae. I've since used it even in tanks with plenty CO2 to help get rid of unwanted algae, after having fixed the cause of course. I've also noticed that not all plants seem to react to Excel in the same way, some such as rotala wallichii didn't seem to react to it at all while Hemianthus callitrichoides in the same tank took off like a weed.

In a little "play" tank I tried having plenty of light, little nutrients and no CO2... a recipe for disaster... once the algae took off I dosed excel in varying doses, in the end using 3-4 times the regular dose the algae was on it's way out and the plants were in the same poor shape they were before, so I doubt they had any effect on the algae itself. Eventually I got to the stage where both plants and algae were dead 

You're asking the right question though, it's not the cure for all algae problems, it can certainly solve problems caused by a carbon deficiency but at the same time it can also help eliminate algae that is there for other reasons. Obviously in that case it is not providing a solution to the problem itself, just helping clean out the tank in much the same way one can do so with H2O2 with apparently less effort and perhaps less risk.

Giancarlo Podio


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## Gumby

I've got a secret for you guys. Seachem sells several products with the same main ingredient that Excel has. It has been speculated that Excel is a very dilute concentration of glutaraldehyde... a common hospital disinfectant.

Check this out: http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=80

I know a guy (friend/customer) who ordered some glutaraldehyde(ebay) for his fish tank to try it out. He somehow managed to figure out dosage and gave it a try. His plants went crazy, and his algae died. Unfortunately, so did his shrimp... perhaps Seachem's isomer is less toxic.

Like that link said, several of Seachem's products contain glutaraldehyde or something similar. If you're looking just to kill algae, check out another Seachem product: Pond Health Guard. PHG contains glutaraldehyde, it says it on the bottle and on that information sheet.

I worked at a store for 6 years that had horrible BBA problems. Our old manager some how figured out that he could safely dose PHG to kill both BBA and GSA. Keep in mind, this was a petstore... Tanks were full of fish and had little or no live plants. It wasn't a case of plants being able to absorb nutrients better to starve the algae. It straight up killed the algae, but not the fish. Algae would typically bleach out and die.

Just some food for thought.


----------



## plantbrain

The store would had been better off simply using copper.
We can get 24% PGA, same active ingredinet and concentration as Excel.

Unlike snake oils, adding Excel will help plants(up to a point) and many plants are non responsive. I already knew HC is.

I really do not even care about BBA, or even GSA, those are easy to deal with without Excel.

Cladphora and Spirogyra are the main two pest species left and Excel at insane dosing did nothing to them.

So.......it's just a carbon additive alternative for me other than CO2, not an effective algicide.

If you have issues with GSA(also CO2 related) and BBA(CO2 related) then you need to use the gas properly to begin with.

Proper usage of CO2 is 95% of folk's problems, not the other nutrients.
Excel is not going to solve those issues.

Basically what I am saying, it's not god's gift to cure alls, it's still a Carbon additive and it can kill off some species of algae, but unless you plan on using lots of it for a long time, it's still only a band Aid for the real issue.

Anyway, if someone bought a CO2 gas tank, are they going to sell it because they cannot figure out how to use it? And use Excel instead?

Try this on larger tanks and see how much you will be spending.
It behoves folks to work on the CO2 and learn how to use it properly, not go for Excel as an easy out.

Then they will know what they did wrong and learn from that rather than avoid learning by buying a cure all.

Excel will not hurt the tank, but it still has limitations.

Copper is also a plant nutrients that can kill BBA and other species of algae, Cladophora included and is toxic at higher levels to inverts, Crypts can handle very high amounts.

I'm not sure why folks do not use some of the things that have been around for 50 years and that are used in pest control in the environment by State, Local and Federal agencies to target algae and not hurt the aquatic plants.

Greg Watson has been seeing how his batch of PGA works and we will know a fair amount shortly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------



## duckdog

Is it just me or when the plants get what they need eg... excel more carbon, they are healthy there for no algae? Carbon not the only thing they need but to me if your tank has algae and its gone when you add cabon they must be not getting enough carbon?

Nelson


----------



## Gumby

I tried this out because I don't have time to make a cover for my sump so that I can up my CO2... I dosed 3x reccomended dose every day for a week and all my BBA and Staghorn is gone.  I think I can attribute some fishloss to it though... I has two cardinal tetras die for no apparent reason. Shrimp all survived. Weird.


----------



## Zapins

"Cladphora and Spirogyra are the main two pest species left and Excel at insane dosing did nothing to them."

Tom: while i agree with the rest of your last post about fixing the root cause/excel being a Band-Aid/ and higher co2 levels what i dont understand is how you can say excel does not have any effect on Cladphora and Spirogyra even though several people in this thread have clearly and uniformly observed that these algae species are affected as well. 

have you tested excel on these 2 species of algae in ALL water conditions? perhaps if x3 dosing does not work on your Cladphora it is due specifically to your water conditions and is not the normal reaction that these algae species exhibit when dosed with excel.


----------



## robitreef

What about us out there that have low-light tanks? I have 110W over a 75 and have crypts, Java fern, etc. Can Flourish excel supply enough Carbon while eliminating BBA?


----------



## trckrunrmike

How much so I dose my 20 gallon? 1 capful?

How do you guys know how much you put it? I use the cap thread method described on Seachem's bottles but I'm not sure how accurate that is.


----------



## KeIgO86

plantbrain said:


> Copper is also a plant nutrients that can kill BBA and other species of algae, Cladophora included and is toxic at higher levels to inverts, Crypts can handle very high amounts.


I strongly advise against using copper treatment for any forms of algae if you have invertibrates in your tank.

Copper at amounts that are harmless to cladophora (or any other form of algae for that matter) is already devastating to inverts. I once used a brand of liquid fert which has an exceptionally high concentration of copper (25x that of seachem flourish for the same volume) which I have not realised until I checked up its content concentrations on the internet. It devastated every single invertibrate in my tank, from cherrys to yamatoes to even pest snails. Not a single shrimp survived. Only a few strong pest snails survived the onslaught. My tank used to be crawling with pest snails. The algae was never affected in anyway though.


----------



## houseofcards

Has anyone had any problems with Didiplis diandre during the excel overdose treatment. I noticed mine is having a tough time and I don't know if it's just a coincedence.


----------



## Scrimp

gnatster said:


> Excell does not raise the CO2 level, it does increase the availability of Carbon.


Ive been researching this...Does this mean that the carbon in my water already is easily depleted and gone<minus the min amount the fish put out> Ive been using excel though Im thinking the fish cant put out enough of this to help keep this process up. Is this why most people use the o2 yeast tanks or the o2 filled tanks?

If Excell makes it more readily available this means there already has to be a sufficiant amount in the tank, right?


----------



## opiesilver

No, it means that the form of carbon that Excell is adding when you add it to your tank is different form CO2.


----------



## opiesilver

You might be interested to read this;

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=83709#post83709


----------



## Scrimp

opiesilver said:


> You might be interested to read this;
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=83709#post83709


Thanks Bud I read that before I posed, though it seemed conflicting to me since it said it also allows the plants to utilize different things besides carbon plus their forum talks about another process...Ill just ask them directly.


----------



## rybal

*About Gluteraldehyde*

especial page 9 & 10 (3.2.1 Aquatic effects)
http://www.jetoc.or.jp/HP_SIDS/pdffiles/111-30-8.pdf
Tomas


----------



## gpodio

Very good reading, thank you Tomas!


----------



## 5380

I had a bad problem with cladophora, and fixed my ferts and dropped lighting down, but in it's place this black octopus like hair algae showed up so I tried some excel. It works great, the places I target turn purple and die back daily. What I'm wondering is if anyone has a clue what concentration 3x normal dose is delievering? I once found an epa or dept of agriculture chemical analysis on flourish, but I haven't found one on excel. My guess is 0.5ppm but because I have limited tanks and sensitive shrimp, I don't want to overshoot it. 

I want to get a bottle of PDcare or something similar and add it to my fertilizer regemin. If all else fails I"ll just have someone order me the chemical with the CAS#, the chemical is scary because it's already shown that at seachems conc. my skin is sensitive. Usually my tanks cycle through algae constantly because I"m busy, but this is a nice tool until I can set up peristaltic auto-dosers for ferts and water changes. Any and all help appreciated in finding the concentration or a domestic source.


----------



## mixpix

Do you know if excel works also with GSA?


----------



## John P.

No, your best best for GSA is raising your dosage of phosphate. Over a week or two, you'll notice it not forming.


----------



## mixpix

Thanks a lot! Now my po4 are about at 1 and NO3 at 15.
Tomorrow I'll try to bring my po4 at 2, I have to increment also NO3?


----------



## John P.

Bump the phosphate up to about 3. You can leave the nitrate where it is. 

It might take 2 weeks, but your GSA should go away.


----------



## mixpix

Thanks!!


----------



## detlef

Anyone ever worried about Excel destroying the filter bacteria due to it's disinfecting properties? At least if an overdose is used for killing algae.

May be this one should go to Seachem as well?

Regards,
Detlef


----------



## 5380

Just another fishless cycle, if you have a thicket of plants this wouldn't be anything to worry about.


----------



## detlef

According to Seachem (they talk about reducing properties of Excel) I concluded that those with low tank oxygen levels should be careful and airate their tanks if they dose Excel.

Regards,
Detlef


----------



## Newt

It got rid of my hair algae problem but took a while. The black spot algae is still on my dwarf sagg and my Vals started to die off from it. I dont use it anymore and the hair algae has not re-appeared.


----------



## Zapins

Has anyone else noticed that BBA starts to come back when excel dosing has been discontinued for several months after successfully irradiating all BBA?

Seems like a few tufts of it are coming back now on the wood even though CO2 conditions have been the same for the past few months.


----------



## banderbe

Zapins said:


> Has anyone else noticed that BBA starts to come back when excel dosing has been discontinued for several months after successfully irradiating all BBA?
> 
> Seems like a few tufts of it are coming back now on the wood even though CO2 conditions have been the same for the past few months.


Nope. I haven't dosed excel for a few months and BBA hasn't come back, nor has any algae other than green dust that accumulates by week's end.


----------



## mrmagnan

rybal said:


> especial page 9 & 10 (3.2.1 Aquatic effects)
> http://www.jetoc.or.jp/HP_SIDS/pdffiles/111-30-8.pdf
> Tomas


Having read the entire post start to finish, here's my 2 cents based on the excellent link on glutaraldehyde above

_96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 16.3 mg/L
21d reproduction Daphnia magna LOEC = 4.3 mg/L
NOEC = 2.1 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L *
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L_

Based on the pdf link above + observations of cloudy water by other members, Excel causes bacterial inhibition (eg "sewage microbes" above aka nitrifying bacteria).

There may be a compounding effect at play here, any thoughts?

*Hypothesis: Excel kills algae at low ppm, inhibits (kills) bacteria at higher ppm (perhaps at levels 2x3 times used as doses by most members)

dead algae + reduced bacteria = altered nitrogen cycle in tank. In this logic, we may also experience an increase in ammonia + nitrites as a result of decomposing bacteria and lack of nitrifying bacteria to process waste.

This, in combination with the effects of Excel's active ingredients, may lead to an increase in available ammonia/nitrite which can:

1) harm fish/invertebrates
2) give plants a nice dose of nitrogen which is easy to uptake (this may explain some explosive growth as documented by others).*

Quote from pdf link below:

_"Five-day biological oxygen demand and aquatic metabolism studies indicate that glutaraldehyde degrades readily. Accordingly, significant degradation is expected during passage through sewage treatment
works. Reaction with proteins present in sewage effluent will also remove significant amounts from aqueous waste streams. Any glutaraldehyde that may enter receiving waters is likely to be rapidly diluted and undergo further biodegradation."_

*Keep in mind our experiences differ based on water quality. The RO water in one aquarium will require lower dosages than the rarely changed, high TDS water in another - based on "reactions with protiens present in sewage effluent..."*

Just my thoughts and something to be mindful of when selecting your dose.

1) how many protiens are in my water (how often changed?)
2) will the plants be able to uptake higher levels of ammonia / nitrite resulting from bacterial inhibition?

Any thoughts?

michael

ps isn't ecology wonderful?


----------



## quatermass

So the level of glutaraldehyde in Excel must be less than 0.9mg/l? I'm guessing of course but as Seachem don't say it stops algae I assume its less than this.

Seems awfully low for such a strong smelling liquid.
but what do I know? ;-)


Do we know how long a 3x dosage of Excel takes to kill Algae?


I'm amazed at the low price of Excel in the USA.
A 2L bottle in the UK costs the earth - £42 ($79 US)! whilst in the USA it costs $23.99 or £12!

So I'm keen to find out if I can get it cheaper or is there a substitute chemical?


----------



## quatermass

I've discovered a supposingly safer alternative to glutaraldehyde - Succinic dialdehyde (succinaldehyde or SDA). See picture.

ref: Toxic Substances Bulletin May 2003 Issue 51

Trade names of glutaraldehyde - Wavicide-01, Cydex.


----------



## quatermass

Just a thought....

If Excel is suppose to be a kind of 'liquid co2' where does the Carbon come from?

The above image clearly doesn't have any Carbon in it.

And polycycloglutaracetal doesn't seem to have C either.


----------



## epicfish

The molecular formula for glutaraldehyde is C5H8O2. There's carbon and oxygen in there. =) In the picture above, each "bend" in the line represents CH2.

SPI Supplies - MSDS Safety - Glutaraldehyde, Aqueous Solution

Under "Section 10: Stability and Reactivity", 
Hazardous Decomposition of Products: carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide.

Also, from Entrez PubMed
"Material balance studies of glutaraldehyde in a river water-sediment system demonstrate that glutaraldehyde preferred to remain in the water phase. Glutaraldehyde was metabolized rapidly under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions...Under aerobic conditions, glutaraldehyde was first biotransformed into the intermediate glutaric acid, which then underwent further metabolism ultimately to carbon dioxide. Metabolism of glutaraldehyde under anaerobic conditions did not proceed ultimately to methane, but terminated with the formation of 1,5-pentanediol via 5-hydroxypentanal as an intermediate."

It eventually ends up as carbon dioxide as a product of biometabolism.


----------



## quatermass

epicfish said:


> The molecular formula for glutaraldehyde is C5H8O2. There's carbon and oxygen in there. =) In the picture above, each "bend" in the line represents CH2.
> 
> It eventually ends up as carbon dioxide as a product of biometabolism.


Many thanks for the answer, it was puzzling me why the formula diagram appeared to show no carbon in it. 

I'd last done O level Chemisty in 1976 and I'm sure they didn't cover jaggy lines representing other elements back then! 

P.S.
So what does the two lines attached to the oxygen represent?


----------



## vollman1

Doesn't it symbolize a double bond?


----------



## epicfish

Yep, represents a double bond from carbon to oxygen.


----------



## swifty1

Thanks to everyone for such a great thread. I was in danger of ripping out my new 24g planted tank because of the dreaded BBA but having read every page of this topic decided to try Excel.

I've overdosed 2x- 3x the recommended amount for 3 days now and the BBA is turning red which I hope means its dying. Additionally, my SAE's are now starting to eat it (didn't touch it before) so although not out of the woods yet, its looking very positive! 

WRT Excel, does anyone know of a supplier who will ship Excel to UK at wholesale prices? - the cost in the US is much cheaper than here - I'd even be willing to import a fair quantity of it and either keep it long term or take a punt on selling any excess here - maybe an opportunity if any supplier/member is interested?

e-mail or pm me if interested or know a potential source.


----------



## gpodio

Yep, turning red/pink is a good sign, it's hurting! I noticed the same thing with SAE's and other fish, it seems to become more tasty as it dies off... My ancistrus would devour it once it turned red, not sure if to get to the wood under it or for the BBA itself.

Giancarlo


----------



## quatermass

swifty1 said:


> WRT Excel, does anyone know of a supplier who will ship Excel to UK at wholesale prices? - the cost in the US is much cheaper than here - I'd even be willing to import a fair quantity of it and either keep it long term or take a punt on selling any excess here - maybe an opportunity if any supplier/member is interested?
> 
> e-mail or pm me if interested or know a potential source.


Consider me as a interested party as I use Excel.
I'm in the UK.

Seachem list UK suppliers on their web site.
Shipping liquid is expensive I'm told from the USA.


----------



## gpodio

quatermass said:


> Consider me as a interested party as I use Excel.
> I'm in the UK.
> 
> Seachem list UK suppliers on their web site.
> Shipping liquid is expensive I'm told from the USA.


Guys if there isn't much in the UK, I'd be looking in other places in Europe. I know several people in Italy buying it from "over the boarder" to save some money. Perhaps shipping will be cheaper than all the way from the US.... Just a thought, it's worth a shot.


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## quatermass

So time to hit those German and French Aquarium selling web sites?

I suggest emailing Seachem and asking them for their conditions.

Like I said, they may well ship it over as dry powder and the distr. adds distilled water over here?

Alternatively, has anyone looked at its equivalent chemical I mentioned earlier in this thread?

*Succinic dialdehyde*

this is suppose to be safer than _glutaraldehyde _ and Seachem did say they used a less toxic version of glutaraldehyde didn't they? ;-)


----------



## Zapins

quatermass, do you know if a carbon 13 / proton NMR has been analyzed for Excel to see which chemical glutaraldehyde or Succinic dialdehyde, is in it for sure? 

Also, have any lab tests been performed on Excel to determine what is in it for sure?


----------



## banderbe

Seachem is required by law to publish a Material Safety Data Sheet on products like Excel. Google it. You'll find that gluteraldehyde is in it.


----------



## ruki

pineapple said:


> "Lower lit tanks"
> 
> Algae in lower lit tanks = an oxymoron.
> 
> Andrew Cribb


I'm relatively new hear, so I'm reading through this thread for the first time.

I had a low light tank. No CO2, no fertilizers. Lots of blue green algae if I didn't change the water all that often. Think it was enough major nutrients from the fish, but a shortage of micronutrients.

This tank was the ultimate low light tank. Tall, extra narrow 15 gallon tank (It was square on top) lit with a 8 watt T5 lamp, horrible reflector, and ultra lame magnetic ballast.

Back-to-the-main-subject
I have a small bottle of Excel to play around with. I have a 55 gallon tank with insane light levels (5 T5 HO tubes with a good reflector, something on the order of 20,000 lumens sent into the tank.)

I have some hair algae, annoying but not taking over. Recently turned on CO2 injection in this tank. Wondering if Excel will clear it out. Think the CO2 injection will take care of it long term though.


----------



## JLudwig

Well, its been a while since we've known about this effect, it came up at the convention quite a bit. Here's a problem I do see - a lot of folks are now using this as a preventative measure. The same people who would give me crap if I told them I was using copper or some other algaecide.  Let's face it, the effect isn't due to the other plants doing better, it is a very selective algaecide.

I am "addicted" to this product as well; if I stop dosing excel, BBA makes a return in a matter of few weeks. What do we do when a nasty red algae shows up which doesn't respond to this stuff? Are we actively selecting for algae in the hobby which do not respond to this treatment? Its clearly not a natural product, and can probably contribute to extra dissolved organics in the water which can't be good in the long run. It goes against the Occam's razor of plant growing - we should only be putting things into our tank which benefits plants (hence my preference for TMG over Flourish as many of you know  ). How many issues are we covering up in our tanks by relying so heavily on it? 

So, who's with me on trying to kick their Excel addiction?  And how the heck do we get rid of BBA without it?

Jeff

PS. Please don't bother telling me to increase my CO2 to get rid of BBA.


----------



## Jason Baliban

I find if i dose excel once a week at water change at suggested dosing, and have my army of amano's, bba never gets going. I think i would feel the same as jeff if i had to dose it more then once a week.

I have 1 amano every 2 gallons of water capacity, and it seems the recommended dosing of excel once a week is enough to keep any bba soft enough for the amanos to eat.

I think im staying on the junk

Or you could just up your co2

jB


----------



## gpodio

Jeff, just increase your CO2! ;-)

As much as I suggest using Excel to people with certain problems, we must still maintain the goal of achieving an algae free tank without the use of any kind of algaecide. You are correct, if your only use for Excel is to limit algae growth then you mustn't stop working on your tank's overall balance and stability.

BBA certainly used to be a problem commonly resolved by proper CO2 management, at least that was the solution many of us had found effective some time back. But as the hobby evolved in recent years, so has our fertilization protocols, and most likely so have the causes of such problems. 

When BBA was a problem for me and CO2 the solution, my fertilization was far different than it is today. Today I dose more PO4 to reduce green/black spot algae... I add more traces than ever before... I have a lot more light... Things are not the same as they were back then, the solution may be just as different. I rely on SAEs quite a lot in some tanks, I didn't even know what an SAE or Amano shrimp was back then 

For sure, my "Ford" tanks of a few years back were certainly cleaner than the "Ferraris" I have today. I can grow a wider variety of plants today, and faster, but when I look back at some of my older photos I sometimes wonder if I have improved in recent years or not... I miss some of my older, more relaxed tanks!

Cheers
Giancarlo


----------



## meredymae

*careful doing this with anacharis*

I overdosed the Excel, double strength, once. The day after, all my rodophyte algae had died (great). Everything looked good except my anacharis, it seemed to have lost its green brilliance. I thought maybe the fine bit of algae turning red (dead) on the leaves might have dulled the green a bit (color theory says green and red make a neutral tan), so I decided to ignore it. Ooops. I should have taken it out and put it in my other tanks. Most of the strands had started to disintegrate.

I'm irritated but not devastated, it's a cheap plant.

Any ideas on why it killed the anacharis but not anything else?


----------



## epicfish

Anacharis, vals, riccia, and fissidens are especially sensitive to Excel. It's even stated on the SeaChem website.

The reason? I'm not quite sure.


----------



## Newt

BBA can also be controlled by adjusting your KH to a greater degree than the GH (eg. 2 dGH to 3 dKH). This will convert CO2 to HCO3- which BBA can not utilize.

I think Excel kills algae because it can absorb it but not assimilate it as a nutrient and it blocks the uptake of other nutrients. Algae is a simpler, more primitive form of plant structure than higher order plants.


----------



## howie

I am not a scientist but my wife was pursing a PHD in Limnology. Diane Walstad hit upon the explanation in her book.
Algae get it's nutrients from the water. Stemmed plants get it's nutrients from the water and from the gravel bed or soil.
Diane's solution to algae growth is to limit free floating iron. This will force stemmed plants to get it's iron from the gravel or soil. Since algae are not rooted in the gravel, then their only source is free floating iron. If you limit it then algae will die.
Excel on seachem website states that it reduces free floating iron and that is the reason why algae and floating plants are affected.
I am currently battling Black or Brown hair algae myself. I trying not to use excel because I want to correct the problem with a natural method. I am going to do what Diane outlined in her book and add more floating plants like frogbit and elodea. Once I get a C02 test kit, I will probably increase C02 as well. Hopefully it will work.


----------



## Newt

howie said:


> Diane Walstad hit upon the explanation in her book.
> Algae get it's nutrients from the water. Stemmed plants get it's nutrients from the water and from the gravel bed or soil.
> Diane's solution to algae growth is to limit free floating iron. This will force stemmed plants to get it's iron from the gravel or soil. Since algae are not rooted in the gravel, then their only source is free floating iron. If you limit it then algae will die.
> Excel on seachem website states that it reduces free floating iron and that is the reason why algae and floating plants are affected.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I occassionaly get BBA growing on individual pieces of Flourite. It's easy to control by plucking out the infected piece. I also had, at one time, thread/hair algae growing on the flourite. Flourite has lots of iron. So I don't think this is a very true statement.


----------



## howie

Doesn't BBA grow on plants, glass, and virtually any surface in a tank that is expose to light? So what do you mean by it growing on flourite that my statement is not true?


----------



## Newt

I would think that if it was growing on the flourite then it is absorbing the nutrients from it and not just the water.


----------



## caymandiver75

Well just to update everyone with my recent experience using excel at x2 the normal dose. The algae is all gone!! I mean ever single piece of it is gone or dead. I dosed excel for 10 days.


----------



## aleph

I used Excel at just less than twice dosage. Did wonders for getting rid of my algae. It also got rid of half of my shrimp! :sad: Now I just grow algae and plants...


----------



## mixpix

caymandiver75 said:


> Well just to update everyone with my recent experience using excel at x2 the normal dose. The algae is all gone!! I mean ever single piece of it is gone or dead. I dosed excel for 10 days.


Did you use the seachem advanced protocol x2?
In example for a 30 gallon tank you use on monday 25ml of excel and during the week every day about 5ml?


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## Lord Nibbler

a few cents worth:

I have a 37-gallon, about 3wpg, nitrates around 15, phosphates 2, iron 0.25, KH 7, GH 10, fermentation CO2 feed (small). Its moderately highly stocked, rather heavily planted with Limnophila and Hygrophila.

After upping my lighting to a compact tube system, green algae started going nuts. It would be all over the Limnophila on growth more than a few days old. I tried a 2x dose of Excel for 2 days, not much happened. I tried 3x dose for 2 days and the algae died back pretty good. However, the water got rather greenish/cloudy so I did a 50% water change. Unfortunately I had to leave on a business trip for 3 days so I thew in another 3x dose.

When I got back, everything was still in one piece . The plants grew like crazy, but the algae was starting to come back. I'm on day 2 of another 3x regime, so I'll see how that goes. I have brigs and fish in the aquarium and they are all fine.

I did dose extra once when I had way fewer plants, and it ended up killing quite a few fish. I think either I had a very high bacteria population or the plants couldn't take in the Excel fast enough. Either way, the fish were quite stressed and a couple died just overnight. I'd suggest not going to overkill levels right away if you have low plant levels. 

Kuhli loaches seem rather sensitive to Excel, they swim around rather agitated for me even when all the other inhabitants are fine with the dosage.


----------



## bmedeiros678

Gomer said:


> Am am doing 15ml every other day on my 30 righ now actually. I am on my 3rd dose and I am seeing all sorts of BBA turning red.


Are you leaving the lights on? How much wattage?


----------



## avgeek21

This is a great site and great thread and i've read it with great interest. The question I have is should you be performing any water changes during the week you are doing your triple dosage regimin? I usually change about 20% every midweek and have arrived at that point today. Do I do a water change now or should I wait until the weekend, at the end of the triple dosing regimin? My fish look great, but it seems like some people have sporadic fish deaths towards the end of treatment. Could this be caused by an untolerable build up of the excel in the sytem, relieved by a partial water change at that mid-point of treatment? Thanks.


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## Laith

As far as I understand Excel breaks down pretty quickly in the tank, within 24hours. So there isn't a risk of accumulation (though I don't know what it breaks down into...). If you want to do the mid week water change, I don't see a problem.

I'd guess that the sporadic fish deaths are due to *over* overdosing (how's that for a term  ) combined with the specific conditions in each tank.


----------



## Lord Nibbler

Laith said:


> As far as I understand Excel breaks down pretty quickly in the tank, within 24hours. So there isn't a risk of accumulation (though I don't know what it breaks down into...). If you want to do the mid week water change, I don't see a problem.
> 
> I'd guess that the sporadic fish deaths are due to *over* overdosing (how's that for a term  ) combined with the specific conditions in each tank.


Yep, the only fish I noticed so far that are really sensitive are kuhlis and ottos. Strangely, the brigs don't seem to care, and they're what move for higher ground first if any other chemical parameter is off!


----------



## Lord Nibbler

Update:

After a few days of 3x dose, my water got cloudy/greenish so I replaced about 70% and then refertilized. Some of the lowest leaves on the Ambulias has a bit of algae left, and the glass still gets some green algae.

Question: When green algae gets slimey, does it mean its dying? I don't mean the "slippery" feeling, I mean "slimey" as in like snail mucus.


----------



## kiwik

serious? i dose that stuff all the time, my plants grow great, the algae grows great with it


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## wintor56

Having read all 16 pages of this thread, there appears to be so many variants on the overdosage rate of Excel.e.g.

Some users used the initial/water change dosage rate for 4 days
Some users double the intial dosage then doubled the daily dosage rates.
Some users used the standard initial dosage rate 5ml/10gal and doubled the daily rates from 1ml/10gal to 2ml/10gal

I have tried this last method to kill my BBA and after 1 week,it doesnt seem to have worked.
Can anyone offer any advice on the best dosage?.
Thanks.

Regards,
Des.


----------



## banderbe

wintor56 said:


> Having read all 16 pages of this thread, there appears to be so many variants on the overdosage rate of Excel.e.g.
> 
> Some users used the initial/water change dosage rate for 4 days
> Some users double the intial dosage then doubled the daily dosage rates.
> Some users used the standard initial dosage rate 5ml/10gal and doubled the daily rates from 1ml/10gal to 2ml/10gal
> 
> I have tried this last method to kill my BBA and after 1 week,it doesnt seem to have worked.
> Can anyone offer any advice on the best dosage?.
> Thanks.
> 
> Regards,
> Des.


A week isn't long enough. Overdose for at least a month. I dosed 5 times the recommended amount.


----------



## LSD25

quatermass said:


> Just a thought....
> 
> If Excel is suppose to be a kind of 'liquid co2' where does the Carbon come from?
> 
> The above image clearly doesn't have any Carbon in it.
> 
> And polycycloglutaracetal doesn't seem to have C either.


My guess is, that Excel is so great, because it's mode of action is based on 3 mechanisms:

1. Algicide: the algea are not able to metabolise it and the glutaraldehyde reacts with the cell walls eventually destroying them.

2. it is a C5-Source for the higher plants. they metabolise it. The downside seems to be, that it uses just one CO2 to produce sugar in contrast to anorganic CO2, where 6 CO2 is used. In other words: there is less O2 produced.

3. It is metabolised by bacteria to CO2. The half life of glutaraldehydse in aquatic systems is around 10hrs. That explains why we have to give it every day. So excess will be broken down by bacteria producing additional CO2

I wouldnt overdose it in "usual" circumstances as it can also kill other "useful" bacteria as well as the higher plants. It has been also reported, that Glutaraldehyde is harming the larvea of fish eggs of some more sensitive fish. It is simply a matter of the dosis.

Cheers,
Marc


----------



## Homer_Simpson

My Observations in using Excel to Combat Algae.

Had a 2.5 gallon nano that had algae growing all over the plastic inside. Wide leaved plants such as wisteria, and Hygrophilia corymbosa comapacta, and banana plant leaves remained algae free. Thread algae dominated tips of ambulia, java moss(it is smothered with thread alage), and java fern as well as bare roots. The tank was home to a amano shrimp, cherry shrimp and dwarf aquatic frog. The amano and cherry did feed off the algae on the plastic but not in sufficient quantities to make any difference. The amano and cherry pretty much left the green thread algae alone.

I dosed 1 ml of Fluorish Excel every 2 days. In about 8 weeks all the algae on the glass cleared up, but the thread alage remains and continues to thrive. The shrimp and frog are still alive and appear to have suffered no ill effects from the dosing. 

Nothing new here, I guess. Overdosing on Excel seems to combat all types of algae but one: thread algae.


----------



## ezalgae

both string algae and floating algae can be removed by ultrasound. It might not be for smaller tanks because he cost is over $800. However it is a permanent solution and does not hurt the fish or the aquatic life. Find it http://www.ezalgae.com
maqrk


----------



## quatermass

Yes I've heard of this. I got contacted by a one of those companies a year ago. They're developing an Ultrasonic device small enough for the average tank.

Hmm I wonder if those tiny fog making devices we can buy would do the same job? They use ultrasonics to vaporise the surface water to make fog.
Maybe someone could put one under the water and see if it develops algae or not? 
Hmmm I've got one somewhere, maybe I'll give it a try. I'll point it at a glass wall of algae and see if it kills it.


----------



## Markl

I just dosed 7x the daily amount and it's cleared up some of the larger particles of crap floating in my water. I'd just posted an update on my tank elsewhere on this site saying the water is way to dirty - it's half fixed the problem. It may also hopefully deal with my guppy fry problem.


----------



## rs79

"I've read a lot of writings/interviews with the Seachem founder about Excel (as well as the FAQs on their site), and he always dances around the "algaecide" topic for legislative reasons."

I can address this. I talked to [email protected] and he was indeed evasove. "Will Excel kill algae". "Excel is not an algicide".

The problem is this. "Algicides" are regulated by the US government and you have to go through a lot of testing to qualify your product as an algicide. Read that as millions of dollars and years.

If you sell something as an "algcice" or even claim your product is an "algicide" without guvmint approval, you're in trouble.

So the question to ask of Seachem is "will this stuff help grow cladophora moss balls" which leads you to the answer "no, they do poorly and die".

(Ans when asked you can learn about the algicide regulatory issues).

Excel is the only decent aqarium algicide on the market IMO, despite what the USG thinks. The other algicides casue utter havoc with plants.

As Tom Barr (plantbrain) points out, if you have algse you're doing something wrong, probably not feeding your plants correctly and while regular application of Excel will nuke all algae (Tom's observation it won't kill thread algae don't agree with mine - whatever) it's probbaly better to address the root causes of your problem, ie feed your plants properly.

However, Excel in the *normal* dose should kill all algae. If not, that is, you have a slightly worse case, try double dosing. I keep lots of shrimp and have taken some doses to the extreme and it doesn't seem to bother shrimp, snails or fish.

What also works very well is an 80% water change two days in a row, followed by a good dose of Potassium Nitrate. This alone has killed outright some staghorn algae in one tank here.

Algae likes stable conditons and is easily "shocked" to death.


----------



## jazzlvr123

i did not read most of the thread, but all i have to say is when i get algae problems, just upping my co2 levels physically removing as much as i can (pruning in some cases) and a huge water change usually takes care of the problem pretty easily.


----------



## fish_4_all

Well I have had this experience with it. I used to have DIY CO2 for my 10 gallon tanks. I stopped becaus ei could never keep thelevels consitant and this caused really bad BBA and string algae. I then went out and got Excel and started dosing it. Within 2 weeks all of my algae was gone and my plants thrived. 

As for it's algacide properties, it is a plantacide to boot. I dipped my X-mas moss into it for 3 minutes and it killed it all in 2 days. I dipped an anubias in it for 30 minutes and almost killed the plant. The solution was 10 parts water to 1 part Excel. 

The best I can see is that it replaces CO2 injection with a useable Carbon source that the plants can use to outcompete the algae. As far as algacide, crank up your CO2 ppm to 2-300 and see how fast the algae dies as well as the rest of your plants.


----------



## quatermass

I accidently put in the 'inital' dosage twice in the same day to a 50L tank and within 24 hours most of my Corys were dead, all my mountain minnows were dead and I lost a few zebra loaches.
My glowlight tetras were fine though.
So I'm extra careful of dosages of Excel.


----------



## black_lung

I've recently had a horrible outbreak of cladophora algae in my tank and double dosed Excel every other day for a week, regular dosed on days in between (2ml for a 10 gallon tank on double days). On the plus side, nearly all the cladophora has died. On the negative side, it also took out a huge portion of my HM, Taiwan moss and caused a bit of die off in the dwarf sag. Rotala indica and wallachi were unphased. I was attempting to spot treat the algae with a eyedropper, and since the majority of the algae lay in the sag, HM and Rotala indica, they got exposed to the full blown effect of it. I assume the R. indica wasn't effected due to its hardier nature. Words of advice- don't spot treat near or on delicate plants. I'm happy with the algaecide results, but if I ever need to use it again, I won't be dosing anymore than the recommended dosage and won't be spot treating anywhere other than equipment.


----------



## fish_4_all

I would agree with that. The normal dosing, although it will take a little onger will get rid of the algae over a period of 2-3 weeks and maintain a healthy tank. It is a great alternative to CO2 injection but you do need to keep using it because just like CO2 injection if you quit you will likely cause worse problems that you had before.


----------



## fish_4_all

I also wanted to add one thing about CO2 injection. I prefer Excel because when I was using DIY CO2 I could never keep regular constant levels and I had algae worse than I had before I added CO2. The Excel allows for fairly constant levels. The plants may not use it all but with regular 50% water changes the levels should stay below lethal levels just like EI dosing works.


----------



## quatermass

fish_4_all said:


> I also wanted to add one thing about CO2 injection. I prefer Excel because when I was using DIY CO2 I could never keep regular constant levels and I had algae worse than I had before I added CO2. The Excel allows for fairly constant levels. The plants may not use it all but with regular 50% water changes the levels should stay below lethal levels just like EI dosing works.


Excel is short lived in the aquarium (24 hours). 
So dosing every other day is usually OK.
I put in one cap worth into my 250L tank and the plants seem to like it.

It's far too expensive in the UK to put in 2x dosages!


----------



## Noddy65

Just a heads up...some people in Aus are trialling glutaraldehyde (which is what excell is derived from) as an alternative (and much cheaper) use to excell.
So far algae control and plant growth enhancment has been promising.
This stuff is toxic so shouldnt be used without knowing what your doing.

Mike


----------



## Zapins

There is a thread on APC that is focused on gluteraldehye. Pretty interesting read. I will be trying it out soon.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...iasts/31615-glutaraldehyde-instead-excel.html

We are way ahead of those Aussies


----------



## Markl

A couple of weeks ago I put in way too much (wayyy too much) when I had no fish in the tank. All my algae died, but unfortunately so did my dwarf sag, val and Java moss. The sag has come back and the val, moss and algae are still gone.


----------



## Noddy65

Some trials on using gluteraldehyde. Seems to work a treat.

http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php?t=2407&page=5

Mike


----------



## mrakhnyansky

Please take your time to read and find out what is main ingredient in Flourish Excel ... and you'll understand why it helps with an algae problems. Take look at the Seachem site that describes main ingredient of Seachem Excel http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS.pdf. THIS IS GLUTARALDEHIDE and also read the site that describes chemical properties of this ingredient: http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ohb/HESIS/glutaral.htm
You'll find out that this chemical harms the fish, it kills the algal cells this is disinfectant that is used in hospitals. Good luck, MRAKH


----------



## Questin

Excel worked for me, thanks for the thread.

I have 125 gallon that I left alone for a year or two, then one day I got all interested in it again and got the entire Flourish line of products to dump into it (all except Excel). Got a new filter for it, new CO2 system, I went crazy. I moved all the plants around as well and got new fish.

Next thing I know, there was an explosion of BBA in the tank, of epidemic proportions hehe. My god, it got over just about everything in the tank, including the outlet. It was a bit of a nightmare, I just did too much at once.

So the first thing I did was stop will all the new chemicals. I was not sure what part of all the things I did caused this so I stopped the chemicals, and I also added phosphate remover to the tank just to clean up everything I could. A week later I went to work on a little CO2 problem I was having and then it was a constant 6.7 and then I noticed that the BBA stopped growing on new plants. In some areas I even saw the BBA turning white, so I figured the problem was solved.

Well the problem was solved, but there was an after effect, all the BBA that was already in the tank. It was not dieing off and going away like I was hoping, and it was growing in areas it was already on. I went a few weeks with just my no chemicals and CO2 of 6.7 but that was not killing the BBA, it just kept it from growing on new growth. It looked funny really, I had all these old leaves with BBA on it, but all the new growth in the tank was nice and green and zero BBA.

So I took the new step, and that was the Excel. I did not do what a lot of people did, I tried to take it easy. The first time I used it I did the one cap full for every 10 gallons thing. I did this 3 days in a row, and then I noticed some of the BBA turning red. Day 4 of the one cap full every 10 gallons really turned things red, and it was all of the BBA that was turning red now.

This Excel really does the trick, and I waited about a month before going to it. I tried to solve the problem with just low pH (6.7) but it was not doing the job. Day 5 of one cap full every 10 gallons has come and gone, and its time to do a major water change, the redness will be taken out.

With 125 gallon tank, its hard to just cut all the BBA off. That was something I did try and it was not working. Every time I tried something new, I would try it for a week or two before moving on to the next. This whole process took me about 3 months to go thru before trying Excel. I believe in a natural approach to everything in my tanks and Excel is not natural, but in the end it worked in as little as 3 days.

To give you an idea of what I have in the tank here is a list. 

Plants
Anubias, Anubias Nana. Bacopa, Glosso, Brazilian Pennywort, Vals, Dwarf Java, Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba', Crinum calamistratum, Purple Cabomba, HC, Tiger Lotus.

Fish
35 Rummynoses, 10 Congo Tetras, 4 angels, 1 Red-Lined Barb, 1 SAE, 3 Striata Botia, 3 Amano Shrimp (well I use to have a lot more, but the Congos ate them all when I put them in. Live and learn) 11 ottos.

Nothing from either list died because of the excel, but it’s a big tank, so its really hard to tell if I lost one or two things, but you get the idea.


----------



## wesknox

Careful on the o.d., chaps. 3x OD took out 3 large rainbowfish and a chinese algae eater. Tumor on one other large rainbow now. On the plus side...it absolutely decimated black brush algae!!! (you know...the stuff that looks like miniature sea urchins). Nothing else would even touch it (Hydrogen Peroxide would turn it red for a few days, but not kill it). Excel turned it pale chartruese in a couple of days and it's disintegrated almost completely. I got my infection from a piece of driftwood I bought from a local fish store. Now, I'm planning on using it to soak everything non-living that goes into my tank.


----------



## gpodio

That's a shame you lost some fish in the process!

Just like with H2O2, I would suggest people try the spot treatment first, ie. use a syringe or similar to squirt the product directly on the algae. This allows you to subject the algae to an even stronger concentration, without going over the recommended dose for the entire volume of the tank. It may take a little longer as you will be killing smaller patches at a time... if you repeat this daily, using no more than 2x the recommended dose, you should see the advantages of both spot and whole tank treatment combined with less risk compared to higher concentrations.

Regards
Giancarlo Podio


----------



## andrew__

Well, that was a long read (with most of the same questions and answers every 3-6 pages  ) and I've got a question. A bunch of times people have said things like "It's not CO2 so fish won't die from low oxygen levels" etc, however on page 6:



gpodio said:


> It has many properties that I feel could explain some of the mysteries of Excel. For example, it has been tested to sterilize ballast water in ships so that organisms are not spread from one country to another. It doesn't accumulate so it's of no danger to the environment. Algae is effected at very low concentrations, one document for example states 200 times lower than the required concentration to kill amphipods. *It is quickly broken down by bacteria to simpler forms, such as carbon dioxide.*


So is this last sentence not correct or is CO2 being produced at low enough concentrations that everyone dismisses it off hand?

Anyway, This thread was a good read, going to be starting to use Excel for plant growth purposes at Seachem's suggested dose, I'll let you know if I start to see an impact on algae at that point.


----------



## gpodio

andrew__ said:


> Well, that was a long read (with most of the same questions and answers every 3-6 pages  ) and I've got a question. A bunch of times people have said things like "It's not CO2 so fish won't die from low oxygen levels" etc, however on page 6:
> 
> So is this last sentence not correct or is CO2 being produced at low enough concentrations that everyone dismisses it off hand?
> 
> Anyway, This thread was a good read, going to be starting to use Excel for plant growth purposes at Seachem's suggested dose, I'll let you know if I start to see an impact on algae at that point.


Andrew, first off, I think it's important to dismiss the oxygen myth... CO2 does not displace oxygen in the water molecule as these two gasses are stored in different 'areas' of the molecule itself. So this has never been an issue, the effect CO2 has on O2 levels within a water molecule is neglectable. Above a certain concentration, CO2 levels themselves become toxic.

When it comes to Excel, it's the product itself (a disinfectant basically) that can pose a direct danger at certain concentrations. The organic carbon becomes available once bacteria have broken down Excel into simpler forms. This form of carbon is unlike CO2 gas, it does not effect PH for example. Unsure of what it effects, if anything, but the two are quite different. My guess is that when Excel is mistakenly over-overdosed, it's the glutaraldehyde that is responsible for any problems rather than the amount of organic carbon that will become available shortly after.

Giancarlo Podio


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## oregon aqua

after reading this whole post ahhhhhh i am going to do the excel treatment. im posting this msg. for to show this http://www.aquabotanic.com/carbon.html i find the last question and awnser to be the clincher for me
"Dr. Greg Morin, Research Director of Seachem Labs
> Can algae feed on Excel?
No. I'm sure this may raise a few eyebrows ;-) since at face value 
this would be a reasonable expectation. But, for reasons Uncle Sam 
won't let us discuss, all I can say is that algae can't feed on Excel 
and I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to deduce why this 
is the case (big picture folks, no chemistry involved ;-).

Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~Research Director~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM "


----------



## gpodio

That's actually the article that got me looking for the same answer...

Now that we know the form or carbon that is made available by the product, we just need to know if algae is capable of performing the same function the plants are performing in order to utilize it. Similar concept I imagine to the ammonia Vs nitrates as a nitrogen source, where algae struggle to "denitrify" (if we can call it that) nitrates internally the same way plants do.

But he did say "no chemistry involved"...


----------



## oregon aqua

i just found this http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2005/20050003.pdf 
it talks about the effects of glutaraldehyde excel's main ingredient. its from the govt agency NOAA.\
when i found this paragraph i was very happy.

"Chronic toxicity bioassays were employed to assess
the potential for environmental effects associated
with the release of the biocide, glutaraldehyde. Of the
three organisms tested, the algal species, P. subcapitata,
was most sensitive. The IC50 estimate of approximately
1.5 mg L−1 (ranging from 1.0 to 1.8 mg L−1)
indicates that low concentrations of glutaraldehyde can
dramatically impact growth. In addition, the narrow
interval between the IC25 and IC50 suggests a steep
concentration-response curve; small increases in glutaraldehyde
concentration would be expected to cause
a disproportionate decrease in growth."

its a good read if i just skip the over scienced parts


----------



## oregon aqua




----------



## DanD5303

I have a nonCO2 tank which is heavily planted with C wenditti, C lutea, C balencea, Java moss, dwarf cardinal, A coffefolia, L repens, and Red Temple. For light I have four 40 W Phillips daylight bulbs, the fat ones, in shoplights resting on top of the tank. Each day I dose 10 mL of 2.5% gluteraldehyde which gives me a concentration of 1.3 mg/L (as nearly as I can figure). It has taken out the hair algae and is getting getting rid of the BBA. It has also enhanced the growth of the Java moss, the red temple, and the cardinal plants quite a bit and may be helping the others. No problems for the fauna. Seems like good stuff, and affordable. Dan


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## Varig8

I use Flourish Excel @ 5x or more for algae control and it works! It will either turn the algae bright red and then it dies, or other algae, like hair algae, turns translucent white and then disintigrates! I have all kinds of freswater shrimp and other sensitive plants and it doesnt seem to have any detrimental effects on them. It WILL kill Susswassertang and Monoselenium Tenerum though!


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## Heady

When I gave about twice the appropriate dose of Excel, some fish died. However this was in a lightly planted tank.


----------



## ngb2322

will excel kill bga? I will experiment tomorrow


----------



## fish_4_all

My first thought would be no as it is not algae but Diatoms. But give it a try, if it works then we have another use for it. 

I am gonna try using it to get rids of green water. Will post my results as soon as I can get some. I would try the others things but if my tank water gets anymore perfect it won't be healthy for the fish.


----------



## GIfishguy

I had a bad prob with brush algae in my planted tank. Been battleing with this crap for some time now. I had to bleach my heater, intake, output, and anything else that I could take out. I've been using excel for about two weeks now and it seems to help stop the growth but not killing it. Anything else that I can try?

I also noticed that this stuf does not grow in my chiclid tank????? higher PH???? Mabey???? My planted tank is a soft water tetra tank.....


----------



## Heady

I don't think I've ever seen a thread with over 60,000 views before!!


----------



## jmontee

ngb,

BGA is actually a bacteria. It does have some of the characteristics of an algae but it will not be taken care with Excel, IME. Increasing the flow of water and maracyn will help. I would try just increasing the flow of the tank and doing frequent water changes before adding antibiotics to the water. Make sure that the tank parameters are OK.


----------



## Engold

Well


I did use about x2 the recommended amount of Excel to deal with my Algae issues, it did work but however all 4 of my discus die off and 5 cardianl tetras.


----------



## Manwithnofish

Amen! I read this thread (after nearly giving up on the algae problem (really bad)). I started dosing with Excel and the algae is GONE. Amazing stuff. I have lost no fish and seen no adverse affects of any of the fish in my tank. This should go to the top of the list of things to try before one engages in the multi-variable, complex technical discussion about all the things that might influence algae such as lights, nutrients, etc.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

*ONE MORE VOTE FOR SEACHEM EXCEL!!*

Here is a synopsis of my experience with using Excel for various types on algae I had in my tank.

April 20, 2008
Excel Treatment
Roy's 45 Gallon Tall Tank

Encouraged by Erik's and Larry's experiences with Luis Navarro's
recommendation for using Excel I decided to try it. Here are the results I experienced.

Day 1
20 % Water Change; PH=6.8; CO2=19ppm; KH=4; DH=4; Treating as a 40 gallon

Initiated treatment with two times (2X) normal initial dose, eight teaspoons (8 tsp) total. Water become slightly cloudy, fish activity declined but no fish showed any distress; plants, which were pearling (gassing) slightly prior to treatment, gassed more heavily about 3 hours after treatment. Fish ate normally.

Algae: Green algae (GA) and green spot algae (GSA) on glass; dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis and Java Fern Lace; light infestation of hair algae (HA) in Bacopa, Rotala, Hemianthus micranthemoides and others. The Rotala also has reddish brown algae (RBA) discoloration (like dusted with rust, not BBA) on stems along with slight hair algae (HA) directly below the reflector.

Day 2
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

Treated the tank with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which had mostly cleared overnight again became slightly cloudy. Fish activity declined but not as much as Day 1 no distress noted. Some increase in plant gassing occurred but not as much as Day 1. Fish ate normally.

Algae: No change in GA or GSA on glass. Dark algae discoloration on the older leaves of the Bolbitis may be lighter, but not the older leaves of the Java Fern. No change in HA or RBA.

Day 3
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

Treated the tank with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which had mostly cleared overnight did not become cloudy. Fish activity did not appear to decline. No notable increase in plant gassing. Fish ate normally.

Algae: No change in GA or GSA on glass. Dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis seems lighter but not on Java Fern. HA does not seem to be as green at Day 1 and does not seem to be growing.

Day 4
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

Treated the tank with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which remained clear yesterday and overnight did not become cloudy. Fish activity did not appear to decline. No notable increase in plant gassing. Fish ate normally.

Algae: GA or GSA on glass seems less green. The dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis is definitely lighter but not gone, the discoloration on the older Java Fern leaves appears unchanged. HA has gone from green strands to very light green in some cases white strands with less thickness to the strand, it appears to be dying. RBA on the Rotala is definitely starting to disappear, some HA also on the Rotala is still green.

Day 5
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

Treated the aquarium with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which remained clear yesterday and overnight did not become cloudy. Fish activity did not appear to decline. No notable increase in plant gassing. Fish ate normally.

Algae: GA or GSA on glass seems same as yesterday, but does not appear to be growing as quickly. The dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis is the same as yesterday as is the discoloration on the older Java Fern leaves. HA seems to have experienced the largest change. Except on some Hemianthus micranthemoides directly under the reflector and on some
Ceratophyllum demersum (Hornwort) that is floating under the reflector where it is still green, it has gone from green strands to light green or white strands with less thickness to the strand; it appears to be dying or dead in most areas. RBA on the Rotala is almost undetectable, the HA also on the Rotala is greatly diminished.

Day 6
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

Treated the tank with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which remained clear yesterday and overnight did not become cloudy. Fish activity did not appear to decline. No notable increase in plant gassing. Fish ate normally.

Algae: GA or GSA on glass seems same as yesterday, but does not appear to be growing as quickly. The dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis is the same as yesterday as is the discoloration on the older Java Fern leaves. HA seems to be about the same as yesterday. Very slight green infestations continue on the Hemianthus micranthemoides and on some
Bolbitis directly under the reflector and on some Ceratophyllum demersum (Hornwort) that is floating under the reflector. The HA has disappeared from most of the areas it was infesting. RBA on the Rotala is almost undetectable or may be gone (it is hard to tell) and some very slight traces of HA remain on the Rotala directly under the reflector but 95% of the original amount has disappeared.

Day 7
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

Treated the aquarium with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which remained clear yesterday and overnight did not become cloudy. Fish activity did not appear to decline. No notable increase in plant gassing. Fish ate normally.

Algae: GA or GSA on glass seems same as yesterday, but does not appear to be growing as quickly. The dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis, although dramatically reduced from initial treatment, is the same as yesterday as is the discoloration on the older Java Fern leaves. HA seems to be about the same as yesterday. Very slight green infestations continue on the Hemianthus micranthemoides and on some Bolbitis directly under the reflector and on some Ceratophyllum demersum (Hornwort) that is floating under the reflector. The HA has disappeared from most of the areas it was infesting. RBA on the Rotala appears to be gone (it is hard to tell) and some very slight traces of HA remain on the Rotala directly under the reflector but 95% of the original amount has disappeared.

Day 8
PH=6.6; CO2=30ppm

I preformed a 50% water change, treated with one times (1X) normal initial dose, four teaspoons (4 tsp) total. Water which had remained clear yesterday and overnight became cloudy. Fish activity did not appear to decline. A notable increase in plant gassing occurred. Fish ate normally.

Algae: GA or GSA on glass seems same as yesterday, removed manually. The dark algae discoloration on older leaves of Bolbitis, although dramatically reduced from initial treatment, is the same as yesterday as is the discoloration on the older Java Fern leaves. HA seems to be about the same as yesterday. The HA has disappeared from most of the areas it was infesting. Very slight green infestations continue on the Ceratophyllum demersum (Hornwort), and on some duckweed all areas are directly under the reflector. RBA on the Rotala appears to be gone and some very slight traces of HA remain on the Rotala directly under the reflector. All and all, I would call the treatment a success.

I would call the treatment a success. Overall, I would estimate that 95%+ of the algae that was on the plants has disappeared. What remains is unnoticeable unless I am actually looking for it. The green algae and green spot algae on the glass was basically unaffected by the treatment, however it did not grow as quickly during the treatment as it had beforehand.

The treatment had minimum effects on the fish and plants. The fish showed no distress during the treatment, although periods of reduced activity were noted, usually shortly after the addition of the Excel.

The plants did show some signs of damage from the treatment, especially in the last two or three days. The tips of the Vallisneria (extending about 4" from tip down) become clear, soft, showed signs of cellular deterioration, and had to be removed. One of my two patches of Cryptocoryne wendtii v. 'Tropica' (Bronze Wendtii) has experienced a "melt down" but the other
appears unaffected. And finally the Ceratophyllum demersum (Hornwort) experienced the same cellular deterioration as the Vallisneria and some small areas became soft and fell apart.

From this point on, I will do the recommended Excel treatment and see if the alga returns to previous levels.

Update May 28th, 2008
To date I continue to treat with the normal recommended dosage of Excel. I have experienced no reappearance of the hair algae (HA) and the only algae I have to deal with is the normal green algae and green spot algae that will grow on the glass. But even that algae grows at about 1/3 the rate it did before I started using Excel. No fish losses and the Val and hornwort have fully recovered as have the crypts. Excel is an excellent product. I use it in conjunction with CO2 injection and plants have never looked better. My Anubias are putting out 1-2 leaves a week, and my Aponogetum has put up a flower stem. Highly recommended!!


----------



## fish_4_all

Well I am about to order some Excel again because I have a terrible problem with green water, staghorn algae, green spot and a couple other algaes. I am gonna specifically spot treat all I can and take a series of pictures to try and get a good documentation of it's effects on algae in general. Hopefully I can get enough accurate information to be useful. 

I know what my cause is though. Lack of CO2 in a medium heavy fertilized moderate to high light tank.


----------



## Manwithnofish

I have high light and no CO2 (yet) and algae was getting out of control. Plants are growing out of sight. The Flourish Excel, knocked the wack out of the algae. I was probably appling twice the recommended dose, but not more....then I went to regular dosing. Without a doubt, everyone with an algae problem should try this FIRST!!!! My algae is gone and my plants are growing like mad and I have seen absolutely NO adverse affects on the fish.....they are Happy Fish and me too!


----------



## fastang80

Nice thread. I am glad it work for you.


----------



## GIfishguy

Does any know a list of plants that do not tolerate Excel?


----------



## Cohazard

what about brown diatom algae? I'm dosing 2x the ammount in my 120, but I still get small patches of brown diatoms on the glass near the light


----------



## Fortuna Wolf

Elodea, Egeria, Anachris, Vallisneria, most mosses and liverworts, and any plant with thin leaves that has a thin or no cuticle. (I suspect Eriocaulons wouldn't do well).

I can dose 1ml/gallon of 2.5% GA without hurting Vallisneria and my mosses. The Val starts to melt at 2ml/gallon and the mosses start to bleach at 2.5ml/gallon.


----------



## mistergreen

Cohazard said:


> what about brown diatom algae? I'm dosing 2x the ammount in my 120, but I still get small patches of brown diatoms on the glass near the light


elbow grease or algae eaters (catfish) of some sort.


----------



## Sunstar

How is the Excell on the Staghorn? That might be my problem area. I've been giving the tank initial dose for two days. How much longer?


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## gpodio

Never tried it myself on staghorn, however I've always been able to beat staghorn by raising NO3 and keeping them from hitting 0ppm.

Hope that helps


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## Sunstar

Fertilising then?


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## toddbe2007

When people say double, triple dose is that?

*Double the initial 5ml for every 10 gallons, or
*Double the daily dose: 1 capful for every 50 gallons

Big difference here...


Thanks,
Todd


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## gpodio

Never double the "initial" dose! We're all talking about the daily dose...

Giancarlo Podio


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## quatermass

toddbe2007 said:


> When people say double, triple dose is that?
> 
> *Double the initial 5ml for every 10 gallons, or
> *Double the daily dose: 1 capful for every 50 gallons
> 
> Todd


If you do the initial dose twice you'll kill most of your fish/invertebrates.

I did that once. Never again. The fall-out was horrible. :Cry:


----------



## davemill

I use Excel at the recommended dosage in a 72 gallon, high-light, injected CO2 tank in conjunction with EI ferts. 

I have a large piece of driftwood that's been in there for four plus years that was covered with BBA. A few months ago, I pulled it out of the tank during a water change, and slowly dripped the higher, water change dosage of Excel all over the BBA. The BBA completely disappeared within two weeks.

I have a small terra cotta pot inverted in one corner or the tank for Apistos to breed in. It was covered in BBA. I took it out, and drew a smiley face with a circle around it in the algae using a Q-Tip dipped in Excel. A week later, I had smiley face of clean terra cotta showing through the BBA, except the dots for the eyes had smeared where the excel flowed down from where I applied too much Excel.

Another breeding tank was mainly algae free, except for some nasty BBA on some anubias leaves. Same Excel treatment killed the BBA within about a week.

The Excel has had no negative effect on plants or fish. I have apistos (5 species), discus, cories, banjo cats, angels, and tetras. Plants do very well, although this would be expected without the Excel. I use the dosage recommended on the label, low dose every day or two, high dose at water change. 

This treatment works best if you keep the algae out of the water for a minute after dripping on the Excel. I do all the Excel treatments above the tank, so that the Excel drips into the tank after flowing over the algae. As far as I can observe, snails and fish eat the BBA starting a few days after the Excel bath.


----------



## quatermass

I've been adding 5ml of Excel daily to my 50L planted tank and noticed some BBA growing on the red LED lamps near the surface.

I upped the dosage to ~8-10ml a day and the BBA started to wither. Then I noticed my 2 Amano shrimp have disappeared. #-o

So I'm back down to 5ml a day. Certainly makes my Frogbit grow.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

I used double the initial and double the daily dose of Excel to rid my tank of algae problems in about 8 days. I did not lose any fish. See Permalink #193, page 20 this thread for the play by play details.


----------



## quatermass

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I used double the initial and double the daily dose of Excel to rid my tank of algae problems in about 8 days. I did not lose any fish. See Permalink #193, page 20 this thread for the play by play details.


Yes but I wasn't talking about fish was I?


----------



## cclansman

Has anyone had any troubles with excel not only killing the alage but also melting some of their sword plants?


----------



## gasteriaphile

John P. said:


> That much & the shrimp are okay, eh? Wow. Did you slowly work your way up to that level? -Yesterday I dosed 11 mL in my 26-G -Today I dosed 3 mL I guess I'll try 11 mL tomorrow & will see what happens.


Referencing the above quote, what does &amp mean? :neutral:


----------



## Indiana Gardener

I am still on my old original bottle of the regular flourish. I have not yet gotten any Excel.

Does anyone know if the regular flourish may decrease my HA if I increase the dose?

Here is my setup:

30 gal.
2 gal water change every other day
ph 6.7
Have not yet gotten a means to measure KH and DH, but KH can't be too high since almond leaves affectively lowered the ph from 7.2.
I don't use CO2, this could be part of the problem...
light; 2 x 100 daylight bulbs = 3,000 lumens for 12 hrs a day.
Currently using flourish twice a week at 1 ml per treatment.

Thanks for any input.


David


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Indiana Gardener,

Sorry, Flourish (Comprehensive) will not decrease your Hair Algae with increased dosage, in fact it may make it worse. Flourish Excel is the product that contains the glutaraldehyde polymers that provide the algaecide properties.


----------



## Indiana Gardener

> in fact it may make it worse


Oh my! Thanks for the warning. I don't need that to happen. The few spots I have now are bad enough.

I'll have to find some excel.

David


----------



## Manwithnofish

Manwithnofish said:


> Amen! I read this thread (after nearly giving up on the algae problem (really bad)). I started dosing with Excel and the algae is GONE. Amazing stuff. I have lost no fish and seen no adverse affects of any of the fish in my tank. This should go to the top of the list of things to try before one engages in the multi-variable, complex technical discussion about all the things that might influence algae such as lights, nutrients, etc.


Scratch that...Algae trumpted the Excel...Algae came back. Temporary success was about all I acheived..but it always came back.


----------



## Indiana Gardener

Thanks for the note on that.

Do you know what to do for HA then? Is there anything? ... I mean aside from taking the whole tank apart and doing the diluted bleach method?


David


----------



## fishyerik

gasteriaphile said:


> Referencing the above quote, what does &amp mean? :neutral:


"&" is code for the "&"-sign, slight computer-error.


----------



## Zapins

Hair algae is easy to get rid of. Increase nitrate levels. You could also reduce light duration if you want, but nitrates are key to killing it off.


----------



## Steve and Vickie

I recently relocated and have only just got around to setting up my 135 show tank, light on the fish heavy on the plants. 

I just have the one plant that seems hampered by the BBA so I am considering pulling the plant from my show tank and dosing the bejeebers out of it with Flourish and see if it does the trick.

I will of course keep you all posted as to my success or failure.

Love this site, the information on here is beyond anything I have come across.

Thanks to all concerned for making this place what it is.

Steve (of Steve and Vivki fame)


----------



## The old man

I hope you meant dosing it with Excel. If so, then I would spray it with excel full strenth as it worked on my anubias in the past. Some plants it may stunt for awhile, but it did kill the BBA.


----------



## Indiana Gardener

This seems almost too good to be true?

http://www.petco.com/product/105281/Tetra-Algae-Control.aspx

Anyone used it?


----------



## inkslinger

updating this old tread!! 
Next best thing to Excel!! 

I had a bad case off BBA in my 110g tank 60x18x24 for a long time , My circulation and old lights don't help it was what started it plus low kno3. Will I went to the store an bought the large bottle 32oz of Hydrogen Peroxide Solution 3% and paid $1.69 , 
I added 250m spot treatment for 3 days and shut every thing off for 1.5hrs every time.
It kill my BBA turn it white and my fishes are eating it an are stress free no harm done need to get some SAE to keep it in check . 
I still have a little patch here and there. I am planning on getting some new lights , I have a new Blue Line 55 HD 1100gph and Nu-Clear 533,547 with 2 Loc-Line Returns sitting on the side ready to be install but still need a few more thing to get so for now I got another 32oz bottle for now.


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## quatermass

Yes Hydrogen peroxide kills algae. But not really surprising as this is the active chemical released naturally when you place barley straw into a pond to get rid of algae.

Of course it'll come back if the reason it happened to grow in the first place isn't addressed.


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## squidlips

Giancarlo , I think you are spot on about the Gluteraldehyde. I use a product called 'Dinosaur spit' which promotes plant growth in the same way Excel does and , if overdosed , kills algae. 
It only contains gluteraldehyde.

Craig


----------



## gooey

just a question, ive been reading almost the whole thread and i think i havent read a post concerning how to use excel with an existing pressurised CO2 set up. anyway i would like to know if i have to dial back the CO2(around 4bps) when i use the excel to nuke the bba in my tank. thanks.


----------



## Jeremy93ls

Great info here.

Although, I've double/triple dosed for 2 weeks now without solving my staghorn algae problem. It's still stuck to the corkscrews and small swords like glue.

I'm about to do some hard pruning and a 30-40% RO water change. Should I continue with the overdosing after the water change?


----------



## rich815

Jeremy93ls said:


> Great info here.
> 
> Although, I've double/triple dosed for 2 weeks now without solving my staghorn algae problem. It's still stuck to the corkscrews and small swords like glue.
> 
> I'm about to do some hard pruning and a 30-40% RO water change. Should I continue with the overdosing after the water change?


Personally I never found Excel to eliminate staghorn. The couple times I've seen it I used an old toothbrush to twirl up as much as I could, severe pruning of all I saw, and watched to make sure of ammonia spikes (pulling up of other plants and stirring up substrate) and kept my CO2 levels good.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

> just a question, ive been reading almost the whole thread and i think i havent read a post concerning how to use excel with an existing pressurised CO2 set up. anyway i would like to know if i have to dial back the CO2(around 4bps) when i use the excel to nuke the bba in my tank. thanks.


Hi gooey,

I dose Excel (actually I use Glutaraldehyde now) in conjunction with pressurized CO2. Although Excel adds carbon to an aquarium, it is not in the form of carbon dioxide (CO2). I find that using Excel (Glut) with pressurized CO2 does not cause any problems with my fish or plants.


----------



## Red_Rose

I'm sorry if this has already been asked but I just got home and I didn't feel like reading through 23 pages of this thread.

I have some thread algae in my betta's El Natural tank and although most of it is in the Riccia, which I plan on removing as soon as I get some more floaters, I do get the odd bit of it in my Ambulias and Cabomba. I know that Excel has worked for many to get rid of algae but what I would like to know is are there certain fish and snail species that are sensitive to Excel and which plants should not be exposed to Excel? Below is a list of the plants that I currently have in the tank.

Limnophila sessiliflora
Cabomba caroliniana
Bacopa monnieri
Corkscrew Val
I'll be getting some guppy grass and maybe some duckweed soon.

Below is a Crypt I have in there as well but I'm not quite sure what type it is so I'm hoping this picture will help. On the tag that came with it, it was called Cryptocoryne lutea but it looks different from the pictures I found online of it.










As for the snails, I have:

Brown and red ramshorns
Pond snails
Snails that resemble MTS only a lot smaller
Zebra nerite

I'd appreciate any help with this.

Thank you!


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Red_Rose,

Some types of hair/thread algae seem to respond better to treatment than others. I have not had any problems with Excel / Glut affecting any of my fish. My val however, which grew normally prior to treatment now is stunted. The treatment is definitely worth trying however.


----------



## quatermass

Oddly enough I've recently discovered the same problem in my 25L Walstad tank.

Thread algae on my Riccia!

I was about to add some Excel too.

Excel as you know is very poisonous if too much is added. But the standard dose is fine with all fish.
It tends to kill off first bacteria and algae, small creatures like Cyclops, etc. leading up to shrimps and snails and then your fish.

We don't have a list as such as every species has different tolerances. Just 'suck it and see'. I'd add x2 dosage and see how it looks after a week.

You may also wish to look into 3-9% Hydrogen peroxide. (Pond owners add straw to their ponds and this decays into H2O2 which kills off algae.)

This when drip dosed over a few hours every day does much the same job as Excel plus it only decays into water and oxygen. I have a small plastic bowl with a tiny hole in it. Which I add a solution and it drips slowly into my tank.

Cheaper and probably safer than Excel too. Just watch the dosage of course.


----------



## Red_Rose

Thank you Seattle_Aquarist and quatermass for your help. 

On my stem plants, it's really not a whole lot of algae on them since I try to do my best to keep it at bay by removing it so would I have to double the dose for just a little bit of algae? As for the Riccia, I would be taking the plant out of the tank and treating it in a separate container. Quite a bit of it is starting to die anyway so I'd have to remove the dead bits.

Although I will admit that I don't like the thought that Excel kills off cyclops. I have a lot of them in the tank and that's my betta's live food source. He loves hunting for them.

As for the peroxide, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that bad for a fish's gills? I thought it could seriously hurt the gills of a fish.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Red_Rose,

I found that for Excel (and Glut) to be effective as an algaecide, 2X dosage is what worked for me. Dosing at a lower dosage did not have the algaecide effect for me.


----------



## quatermass

Red_Rose said:


> Thank you Seattle_Aquarist and quatermass for your help.
> 
> Although I will admit that I don't like the thought that Excel kills off cyclops. I have a lot of them in the tank and that's my betta's live food source. He loves hunting for them.


Same here, my Galaxy fish use them in my Walstad tank. It's odd having a tank in which you hardly need to feed them is it? 
At increased dosages it will. But I've never experimented with dosages to see what level does.



Red_Rose said:


> As for the peroxide, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that bad for a fish's gills? I thought it could seriously hurt the gills of a fish.


Again, it's about dosages. I've put in 30ml of 9% into a 200L tank over 24 hours and the community tank of small and large fish have all been fine. No distress at all.
Obviously if you put in too much it'll kill, just like any chemical from a shop.
Follow the levels on the link here on H2O2 and you can't go wrong.

Remember the 1st thing to be broken down will be the TDS in the water. So it may take a while initially for any H2O2 to actually get to the algae. 

I've started today with 1ml of 9% H2O2 into my 25L Walstad tank and I'll be adding this once every 12 hours. It has 4x Galaxy (Danio margaritatus) and 3 Dwarf Otos and Cherry shrimp.
I'll be keeping an eye out for the Cyclops and Hydra I have in the tank.


----------



## Red_Rose

Yesterday, I took the time to read through this thread to see what other types of experiences people have had with Excel as well as doing a search on the internet and it has made me nervous. I've heard of people who ended up losing plants and fish from just the normal doses!

Call me a chicken s*&t if you want but I think I'm just going to try adding more floating plants to see if they can compete against the algae and I'll save Excel as a last resort. I'm also going to remove the Riccia, which I think is the real reason why some of my stem plants are getting a bit of algae in the first place. Could be wrong though.

Thanks again though for all of your help! I'm bookmarking this thread for future reference. 

btw, that is a great looking tank, quartermass! What is that bushy looking green plant in the back corner of the tank to the right of the phone? I like the looks of it.


----------



## quatermass

Red_Rose said:


> Yesterday, I took the time to read through this thread to see what other types of experiences people have had with Excel as well as doing a search on the internet and it has made me nervous. I've heard of people who ended up losing plants and fish from just the normal doses!
> 
> Call me a chicken s*&t if you want but I think I'm just going to try adding more floating plants to see if they can compete against the algae and I'll save Excel as a last resort. I'm also going to remove the Riccia, which I think is the real reason why some of my stem plants are getting a bit of algae in the first place. Could be wrong though.


Of course another course of action (apart from using Hydrogen peroxide) would be to add a fish that eats thread algae like a young Siamese Algae Eater?



> btw, that is a great looking tank, quatermass! What is that bushy looking green plant in the back corner of the tank to the right of the phone? I like the looks of it.


Thanks.
That's my Riccia. I placed small clumps of it in between my Java fern leaves when I set it up and it's grown into those 'rounded lumps'. Every couple of months I have to remove it as it grows huge. I have a mere 11W overhead light on it. I sell the lumps to my local club. 
I also have a bit growing on top of my filter outlet, Riccia turns a different shape leaf which looks rather nice when it's just out of the water. You can see this here - Riccia pics (Those are of my 250L tank with Riccia in it).

I also like the way the Frogbit grows its roots down so it touches the substrate.


----------



## rich815

quatermass said:


> Of course another course of action (apart from using Hydrogen peroxide) would be to add a fish that eats thread algae like a young Siamese Algae Eater?


I had 3 young SAEs once in my 72 gal. They never touched my thread algae. Barely touched my BBA too. Finally got rid of them. What a nightmare catching them was. I'll never do that again.


----------



## Zapins

Heh heh heh.... that's exactly why man invented the knob on the CO2 tank  Gasping fish can't swim away


----------



## quatermass

rich815 said:


> I had 3 young SAEs once in my 72 gal. They never touched my thread algae. Barely touched my BBA too. Finally got rid of them. What a nightmare catching them was. I'll never do that again.


Where you sure they were SAEs? My 6 SAEs are always eating my BBA.

A lot of shops can't tell the difference between a Flying Fox and a Siamese Algae Eater.

See link for pictures.
http://theaquariumwiki.com/SFF

I bought my seventh SAE yesterday, shop tried to tell me it was a Flying Fox.
Pretty obvious it wasn't.
They had 3 or 4 Flying Fox in the very next tank and even they couldn't tell the difference. I couldn't believe it as their body colours are so different!
When I pointed it out, he went 'oh'.
Very different diet requirements between the two.


----------



## Red_Rose

I wouldn't want to take the chance of adding other types of fish to the tank because of my betta. He's very territorial and mean and I know that a fish would end up getting hurt or even killed by him.

Since I last posted, the amount of algae on the stem plants has lessened.*knocks on wood* I keep getting in there to remove it and today I'll be getting some new floating plants so I can remove the Riccia.



quatermass said:


> Thanks.
> That's my Riccia. I placed small clumps of it in between my Java fern leaves when I set it up and it's grown into those 'rounded lumps'. Every couple of months I have to remove it as it grows huge. I have a mere 11W overhead light on it. I sell the lumps to my local club.
> I also have a bit growing on top of my filter outlet, Riccia turns a different shape leaf which looks rather nice when it's just out of the water. You can see this here - Riccia pics (Those are of my 250L tank with Riccia in it).
> 
> I also like the way the Frogbit grows its roots down so it touches the substrate.


I never would've thought to put some in between java fern leaves! That looks so nice and I can't believe at how different it looks above water.


----------



## SvenBoogie

I've been having a huge green hair/brush algae issue in my work 10g, so I bought about 10 amanos and ordered some excel. The excel just came yesterday, dosed initial dose today and planning on trying 2ml/day. Will post the results once I see if this is working.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi SvenBoogie,

Excell has done wonders for me dealing with algae issues, but it does not solve the underlying cause. I don't know what you are doing for light (watts, duration, etc) but you may want to rethink your photoperiod and cut it back some. I usually have problems with hair algae if I am providing too much light or too long a photoperiod.


----------



## SvenBoogie

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi SvenBoogie,
> 
> Excell has done wonders for me dealing with algae issues, but it does not solve the underlying cause. I don't know what you are doing for light (watts, duration, etc) but you may want to rethink your photoperiod and cut it back some. I usually have problems with hair algae if I am providing too much light or too long a photoperiod.


Thanks, yeah I actually cut my light back today from 2 x 26w spiral CF to 2 x 18w spiral CF.

I suggest "Algae control" as the topic for the next GSAS meeting! :biggrin:

Day after initial treatment (5ml/10gal)...

Algae is worse than it was yesterday.


----------



## Essenza

I setup a new 55g tank recently and were having BBA,hair algae everywhere(I mean everywhere from plant to equipment), I over dose Flourish Excel 3X and 2 days later, all the algae just turned red and then pale and die off, however my Ceratophyllum demersum,Vallisneria americana just melted away,and my Hemianthus callitrichoides turned yellowish and were also dying.The rest of the plant(Rotala wallichii,Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata,Blyxa Japonica,Nuphar Japonica,Limnophila sessiliflora) and critters(Amano,cherry shrimp,cardinal)were fine though.

Essenza


----------



## Engold

Some plants are sensitive to excel overdose... especially HC


----------



## snail_chen

I already have CO2 injected, how come I still got algae ??


----------



## quatermass

Lots of reasons!

Perhaps your CO2 system is inefficient?

Perhaps your plants lack key nutrients?

Perhaps your water circulation system isn't well distributed?

Perhaps you have too much light or for too long a on period?

Perhaps you do not have enough filtration and have levels of ammonia?

Have you measured your Redfield Ratio


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi snail_chen,

It is true that Excel is a source for CO2, but CO2 does not rid an aquarium of algae. Excel also has "undocumented" algaecide properties due to the active ingredient Glutaraldehyde. This thread deals with algaecide properties of Excel. If you are interested in Glutaraldehyde check out the post here.


----------



## cwhite67

*double check my math*

I got the 50% biological grade glut.
I filled my 2 liter empty excel bottle with 2 liters of distilled water.
I added 6ml of the 50% solution of glut.

Is this correct for a 1.5% solution of glut?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi cwhite67,

1) Let's see, 1000 ml per liter

2) 2000 ml in two liters

3) 1.5% of 2000 ml is 30 ml

4) If your Glut was 100% pure you would use 30 ml in 1970 ml of water. However since you are using 50% concentration Glut; to get a 1.5% percent concentration you would need 60 ml of Glut in 1940 ml of water.


----------



## shark1505

Wow, I need to look into that, I had the worst time with algae. Left on vacation, for 2 weeks and you know how it goes, spotless the first day and the whamoo, I had to redo the whole thing. I would love a solution to algae


----------



## SirLancaster

I'm using a 1.5% glut solution, dosing as per flourish excel instructions daily for around 3 weeks now. I had brown algae on plant leaves, it is now gone. Now I'm mostly getting a green "film" (maybe hair, but it really forms as a film) on top level leaves.

The way I apply the glut is with a sprayer, so most of it falls directly over those leaves that are getting the green algae.

Is the glut "feeding" that algae?

Anyone had a similar experience?


----------



## Outtasteam

I have a 55 gal. tank with mostly cichlids. Although I feed them small amounts 2x day (i use omega one and hikari) after a couple days my tank has a brownish tint to it. I dont leave the light on more than 6 hrs. daily and it is not near a window. Any suggestions please??


----------



## Outtasteam

How do you know if you are over-feeding?? Seems like a very thin line between feeding enough and over-feeding. Thanks


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Outtasteam,

Algae is typically not brown. The condition called "Brown Algae" is usually caused by Diatoms, which are actually a silica based organism that grows on the surface of the glass, hardscape and plants. Regular water changes and adding Otocinclus to the aquarium typically resolves the problem.

I have experienced "brown water" in the past when I added new driftwood to an aquarium. It leached tannins for about 6 months before the leaching process was not as noticeable; and that was with weekly 33% water changes.


----------



## Treetom

I'm doing the 5X treatment with no luck. 58 gallon = 6 caps per day correct? Plus DIY CO2 set up. What gives?


----------



## Treetom

Forgot to say, have BBA, BGA, Thread, and hair algae.


----------



## justjulie

*Spectacular Failure*

So... after spending hours reading this thread I decided to give it a try.

My fish all died today.

I had a horrible BBA infestation in two tanks. One was a 10 gal heavily planted, the other was a 30 gal only about half planted (due to many of the plants dying off because of the BBA). Both were adequately lit but no CO2.

We gave a 20% water change, dosed 4x the "water change" amount (did 4x instead of 5x to be on the safe side), and then changed the filters for good measure (they were due for a change anyway).

I didn't check the tanks until about 10 a.m.; I found about 2/3 of the fish dead and the water extremely cloudy and foul smelling in the 30 gal. The rest of the fish were at the surface gasping for air.

Filters are running normally, temperature normal, water change last night was the way we've always done it.

I rescued as many fish as I could. Now I'm trying to decide whether to tear down the tanks and give up trying to save the plants, or letting the process continue to see whether the BBA will go away then re-introducing the fish later.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi justjulie,

First, I am sorry about your loss. When I lose fish I always feel badly but I try to use it as a learning experience so I don't repeat my mistakes.

If you had read the whole thread, I think you would have seen that most of us dose at no more than 2X the "Daily" dosage level (2 capfuls per 50 gallons). I have dosed as high as 2 capfuls per 10 gallons (2X Initial/Water Change) dosage but my fish show signs of distress when I do. 

I think the only post in the whole thread that says "5X" is #257. However, doing the math would show that if he is dosing 6 capfuls for 60 gallons then he is dosing 1X the Initial/Water Change dosage level.

Again, sorry for your loss.


----------



## Treetom

I found hydrogen peroxide to be much safer and cheaper to rid yourself of all algae. I dose 100ml every day for a week in my 58 gallon, and have nearly zero algae in the tank. No I'll effects to plants or fish. Sorry for your loss, maybe this can be an alternative. Oh, and bba turns a fluorescent Orange after being treated with H202 (hydrogen provide).

Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk.


----------



## justjulie

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi justjulie,
> 
> First, I am sorry about your loss. When I lose fish I always feel badly but I try to use it as a learning experience so I don't repeat my mistakes.


Thanks, Seattle Aquarist--I really appreciated the sympathy! I feel I have a stewardship for my fish and I feel horrible for letting them down. 

I'm quite astonished that I could have made such a terrible mistake. I have no idea how I got the idea in my head to do multiples of the water change dose. I'm a little embarrassed, too, but I'm glad I shared this so others won't make the same mistake.


----------



## justjulie

Treetom,

I like your idea and may try it with the remaining plants.

Do you happen to know how Vals react to the H2O2? I have one really beautiful one that has some of the BBA.



Treetom said:


> bba turns a fluorescent Orange after being treated with H202 (hydrogen provide).


And then what happens? Do the fish eat it?


----------



## Treetom

They like all of my plants do very well. If you put it into a syringe and turn off your filtration while spot dosing you get very fast results. It will start to bubble (which is the H2O2 breaking down into H and O) and oxidize the algae.


----------



## rssr1979

should you stop dosing your fertilizers when doing this treatment?

i imagine reducing the photoshop period is a good option as well?

thanks


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi rssr1979,

You can continue to dose your ferts as normal when doing the Excel treatment.


----------



## jdcha2005

I dose a little excel and I'm pressurized.


----------



## krcsasha

niko said:


> I should say that I got a similar experience.
> 
> I have a non-CO2 tank that has been clean for ages but the last 2 months or so I started adding Excel in a dose about 5 times the recommended about every 3 days.
> 
> Things were great no algae with the exception of very few bba spots.
> 
> After stopping the Excel bba, bga, and hair algae appeared.
> 
> I started dosing again and all 3 algae disappeared, only the bba is still there but less than before.
> 
> --Nikolay


I did use Cidex for BBA and it kill them! And it is cheaper than Excel!
Вы говорите по-русски?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi krcsasha,

I am glad the Excel, Cidex, Glutaraldehyde worked for you. FYI I don't speak Russian but this is an English only site so I don't have to. lol


----------



## Sophie and Mom

Treetom said:


> I found hydrogen peroxide to be much safer and cheaper to rid yourself of all algae. I dose 100ml every day for a week in my 58 gallon, and have nearly zero algae in the tank. No I'll effects to plants or fish. Sorry for your loss, maybe this can be an alternative. Oh, and bba turns a fluorescent Orange after being treated with H202 (hydrogen provide).
> 
> Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk.


So this definitely works on black hair algae as well?

I have a low tech 55 gallon (no Co2 or even any ferts) with a budding hair algae problem, and I'm reluctant to try the Excel method. My fish are guppies, neons, a cory, Endlers, various Mollies, and various snails. The peroxide method won't harm any of them at the dose you specified?


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Sophie and Mom,

This thread deals with using Excel to control algae. That said, I can tell you that Excel does kill hair algae.

Typically I only have an issue with hair algae when I have a new tank going through the nitrogen cycle and my ammonia levels are high; have you checked your water parameters lately? Also the longer hours of daylight could be having some effect. SAE are a good biological control for hair algae, especially if I weaken it by dosing Excel.


----------



## Sophie and Mom

Water parameters are good, and I 've been running the tank since February, so it is established. I'm still new at this, and still learning the acronyms...what is SAE?


----------



## sub-80

gpodio said:


> Never tried it myself on staghorn, however I've always been able to beat staghorn by raising NO3 and keeping them from hitting 0ppm.
> 
> Hope that helps


Don't you mean reducing the nitrate?
Because that is what I have been trying to do for the past 2 days by using Tetra NitrateMinus to get rid of my staghorn algae on my dwarf babytears


----------



## totziens

SAE = Siamese Algae Eater. Beware of getting flying fox instead of SAE. Flying fox is a nasty nipper.


----------



## Imi Statue

Here's what I get from this:

First go read this. http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/equipment/114-buyer-beaware-seachem-excel.html
and from that here's a quote below======
"Glutaraldehyde is also an algaecide. Amongst planted tank enthusiasts, Excel is commonly used to defeat undesirable algae growth. I have personally witnessed a massive decline of algae following use of SeaChem Excel. Originally I attributed this decline of algae to Excel stimulating plant growth resulting in the plants out competing algae for nutrients, starving it. After further research I am not so sure. There are too many reports of green water tanks, without plants, being cleared by use of SeaChem Excel. Combine this with the fact that glutaraldehyde is a known algaecide and duh!"
=======

This leads me to believe that Excel is simply doing what it does best destroys Algae, since it is simply an algaecide.

Any different opinions?

Imi


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Imi,

No I don't believe that it is 'simply an algaecide'. 

At normal dosage levels I see minimal (if any) algaecide properties; but my plants grow better with the additional available carbon molecules.

However at 2X the recommended daily dosage the algaecide properties become more evident.

Tom Barr is doing some research on this subject as we speak, more information should become available in a month or two.


----------



## Imi Statue

I Agree that more studies need to be made on this topic. I also agree that Excel is good for plants(use it myself).

The overdose of this topic by the OP was accidental but Excel can be used safely with a little study to get rid of "certain" algae, most notably BBA. It is bad for CRS and probably should just be left out of any tank which has shrimps at all. I have only ever used it with tanks that had fish, and plants, no inverts. I also believe that there are other concerns, like what caused the algae in the first place(probably still a condition even after the BBA would be gone)

But there is so much information including written article by Tom throughout the internet already about the effects, dosing, proper uses, that more writings like those are not really needed.

This basic search gave plenty: https://www.google.com/search?q=exc...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I'm no master of everything Excel.

I am however in the know about the active ingredient "glutaraldehyde" which is used in many industrial uses to clean surfaces. I used to work for a company that used it to clean tools they used. It is also used in medical/dental equipment cleaning, and more. Water treatment plants use it also, so its all over the place.

This chemical might not be good for us at all, but we can, if used carefully, have many good effects from it's use. Wart removal(I've tried this, and it worked for me), biocide(read below), Algaecide, Medical/Dental Tool Sterilizer, you name it.

For those who must know more:

DOW = http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...ides/pdfs/noreg/253-01817.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc
MSDS = http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924161
Wiki = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutaraldehyde
EPA = http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/glutaraldehyde-red.pdf


----------



## crossbred900

A few months ago I tried to add a couple pieces of flame moss and a sword plant to my 75 gallon oscar tank. It wan't long before they started to die and my tank became infested with bba. Now my tank is plant free and I'm struggling to get rid of the algae. I have a 108W light that I have been keeping mostly off, gravel substrate, and two air stones. Friday night I initially dosed it like a 90g tank. How much and how often should I dose from here on? Should I keep my light off? What adverse signs should I watch for in my oscar or water? I have an API test kit to check PH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and I have some Tetra Easy Balance Plus I use every now and then.


----------



## herns

Sophie and Mom said:


> .. and I'm reluctant to try the Excel method.


Try Metricide 14. they work thesame as Seachem Excel and way cheaper! 2 Liters of Excel can cost $40. Metricide 14, 1 Gal is only $23 shipped on Ebay.
There is a good thread on theplantedtank.net "Metricide vs Excel.


----------



## Barbels

It has been a few years now since my 75 gallon Black Beard Algae nightmare scared me away.
This was a rather high-tech Co2 tank and as much as I studied and researched and as hard as I tried, I had no idea what I was doing and I got it all wrong, obviously. 
BBA destroyed everything. I was unable to find a remedy. The tank was well stocked, so I was afraid to try overdosing anything like Excel.
I would love to start a small (20 Long) low-tech (NO tech) tank. I wish to plant it with easygoing live plants and no fish for a while. Eventually I'd like to have one Betta and a few Pencilfish. Maybe no Pencils, but for sure one single Betta.
I figure if BBA rears its hideous head, I could temporarily move the Betta and dump oceans of Excel on it.
Which brings me to my question. Is it pretty much unanimous - Excel (Metricide) will make my BBA nightmares go away?
Thank you for your help. I miss having a tank, but the BBA nightmares are still horrible and terrifying.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Barbels,

Yes, Excel / Metricide / Glutaraldehyde will kill BBA. I dose Excel strength glutaraldehyde. I dose the recommended 'Initial Dose' after weekly water changes and 2X the "Daily Dose" all other days.

Although Excel / glutaraldehyde do kill BBA the small 'tufts' remain unless removed. I keep an Siamese Algae Eater (SAE / Crossocheilus oblongus or syn. Crossocheilus siamensis) in each of my tanks. They are not very effective against healthy BBA they do a great job eating BBA that has been weakened by the treatment above.

I currently have no BBA in any of my tanks.


----------



## alanle

I use hydrogen peroxide to deal with algae. It works for me. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi alanle,

Although your comment really does not follow the subject of the thread of using Excel (glutaraldehyde) I agree there are other methods including hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) that can be effective in treating some types of algae.


----------



## familytank

I have a mild case of bba and I started doing double doses of excel the past 8 days and can see it all dieing off so yes higher doses of excel does help rid algee from your tank imo


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## FFC

Simpte 27 what size tank?


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## Dude

I've got what I'm assuming is BBA in one of my tanks that's covering my anubias and rosette swords. I would like to try using Excel in there, but I hear it ruins anacharis, which there's a ton of in that tank.


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## tiger15

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Barbels,
> 
> Yes, Excel / Metricide / Glutaraldehyde will kill BBA. I dose Excel strength glutaraldehyde. I dose the recommended 'Initial Dose' after weekly water changes and 2X the "Daily Dose" all other days.
> 
> Although Excel / glutaraldehyde do kill BBA the small 'tufts' remain unless removed. I keep an Siamese Algae Eater (SAE / Crossocheilus oblongus or syn. Crossocheilus siamensis) in each of my tanks. They are not very effective against healthy BBA they do a great job eating BBA that has been weakened by the treatment above.
> 
> I currently have no BBA in any of my tanks.


I follow the same protocol. The initial high dosage is more critical than the daily lower dosage. When I did only daily 2x dosage but skip the initial high dosage, some bba persist, though not expanding. Only after I resumed high initial dosage after each WC that the persistent bba went away.

I also do peroxide spot treatment during WC when the water level is lowered. I spray all exposed plants, hardscape, and the underside of the glass cover to keep out algae. Now my plants are healthy and almost completely free of any algae, I only do initial 5x dosage, no daily dosage, but still spray peroxide in each water change to keep glass cover and hardscape clean.

A side benefit of glut is that it's an ingredient in SeaChem Paraguard used for ick treatment. With similar chemical structure as formaldehyde, regular dosing of glut can prevent ick and higher dosing can treat ick.


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