# Cherry Red Shrimp Die Off



## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Not sure what caused it, but a majority of my cherry red shrimp died off. I saw a dead one today and when I took a closer look I didn't see any in the open and saw more dead bodies. Then I found one still half alive, just it's legs were twitching. I tried to save it by transferring it to another tank, but it died shortly afterwards. I immediately did a 50% water change and thinking the worst had happened, started ripping things up looking for any remaining shrimp. Miraculously, I found one male and a little baby, so I stopped ripping stuff up and tried to put everything back as best I could.

I don't know what caused the die off. The temperature has gone up to 86F during this awful heat wave. I have a fan on the tank, but it doesn't seem to help much. I also started fertilizing with dry ferts about a week and a half ago. I've been dosing Excel above the recommended dosage as well to fight some hair algae. Could any one of these be the culprit? I removed about 5 bodies, 6 more remain behind the moss wall which I cannot get to. I started out with 14 three months ago. I just hope I have some left! Poor little guys...


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

How high did the nitrates get? They are sensitive to high nitrates. By high I mean 50 ppm or higher. If the water change helps that was likely the issue. If your tank water got too warm it could kill off the beneficial bacteria. I don't think 86 degrees would be too hot, but maybe it got hotter sometime when you weren't around to notice.


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Not sure since I ran out of nitrate tests a little while ago, but I was also dosing KNO3 using the EI method and was eyeballing the measurement (about 1/16 of a teaspoon) so maybe that's what got me into trouble. I've stopped adding ferts for now, should I just not add KNO3 in the future?


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Today I noticed another dead shrimp. I immediately did another 50% water change. What's going on? I only saw one shrimp today and I don't know how many more are left. It can't be the KNO3 because I haven't dosed that in days and I've done two 50% water changes in the last 3 days. The only thing I can think of is that the beneficial bacteria have somehow died off and now the tank is cycling again? The temperature did not go above 86 degrees, that was its peak during the hottest of the heat wave. Shouldn't the plants be absorbing the nitrates anyway? I just want to save these poor shrimp! :crybaby: :help:


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## trckrunrmike (Jan 31, 2005)

It cant be as bad as mine. I went from 80 to 15 in a month. Not sure what happened. Theyrre not reproducing right now either.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

It's hard to pinpoint exactly what went wrong. Shrimp are sensitive little creatures. If the ammonia got anything above 0 they would not like that. If there are traces of copper in your water that would be bad also. Does the food you feed them have copper in it? Do you have rocks or driftwood in the tank that could be leaching something?


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm not sure about the ammonia. I don't see that happening unless there was some sort of die off in my biological filtration and even still, the plants should absorb most ammonia right? As for copper in the water, there may be, but I use Tetra AquaSafe which says it removes heavy metals. Plus the shrimp are decidedly better looking after a water change rather than before it. I have some driftwood and one rock in there, but they've been in there since April. Here's a list of all the changes in the past 2 weeks that may have triggered something:


Heat wave - tank got up to 86F
Changed from Hagen AquaPlus to Tetra AquaSafe as a water conditioner
Started dosing dry ferts every other day and doing a 50% weekly W/C: CSM+B, K2SO4, KNO3, and KH2PO4. 1/16 - 1/8 tsp for each, less for KH2PO4.
Had a Hydra outbreak but it petered out on its own about the same time the shrimp started dying

Anything in there strike you as possibly culpable?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I'd go with switching water conditioners. It's the only thing that makes sense considering you've done so many water changes. 

The hydra would only eat the tiniest of babies if they were a threat and if the dosing were a problem the water changes would have fixed it.


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Hmm...I guess I figured a water conditioner is a water conditioner, and as long as it says it removes chlorine, chloramines, and heavy metals I'd be fine. It's almost a moot point now, I think I only have 1 shrimp left, it's the only one I've seen since the massive die off. 

What should I do, switch back to AquaPlus? I wouldn't really know it the AquaSafe was the culprit since it seems this shrimp is resistant to whatever is killing/killed all the others. I'm worried when I get some more that the same will happen again, so I'd like to figure it out before I order more shrimp. Anyone else have bad experiences with water conditioners and shrimp or similar die-offs?


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

Use Prime as your water conditioner. This is the only one I would ever use for my shrimp. I've used others in the past with bad results. 86 degrees should not have been too high for cherries. I had my water temp go up to 92 once, not one cherry died, my crystals on the other had were a different story.


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## Telperion (Jun 12, 2006)

DJKronik57 said:


> Hmm...I guess I figured a water conditioner is a water conditioner, and as long as it says it removes chlorine, chloramines, and heavy metals I'd be fine. It's almost a moot point now, I think I only have 1 shrimp left, it's the only one I've seen since the massive die off.
> 
> What should I do, switch back to AquaPlus? I wouldn't really know it the AquaSafe was the culprit since it seems this shrimp is resistant to whatever is killing/killed all the others. I'm worried when I get some more that the same will happen again, so I'd like to figure it out before I order more shrimp. Anyone else have bad experiences with water conditioners and shrimp or similar die-offs?


I had a die-off this weekend following a water change where I used a "new" water conditioner because I ran out of Amquel. I'll never use it again. One of the stress-coat types. All 3 of my guorami died within 5 hours of the water change.  very very sad... sorry for your loss as well....


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Warmer water holds less oxygen. plus aquasafe is a sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate based conditioner (similar to amquel or prime) that can also reduce O2 saturation for several days after use. I'd have to wonder about low O2 levels.


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

I am guessing chloramines.


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Finally broke down and bought an air conditioner, so we'll see if the temperature swings were causing the deaths. The tank temperature peaked at 88F tonight! It's supposed to be hotter in Boston tomorrow, reaching 102F and feeling like 115F with the heat index!!

John P. - It says on the bottle that AquaSafe neutralizes chloramines.

DataGuru - I do have a HOB filter that trickles and stirrs up the water a little, adding some tiny air bubbles, so I thought O2 levels weren't a problem. Plus, my plants pearl like mad during the day.


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## Musket (Jun 7, 2006)

I lost 4 cherry barbs the same day I switched water conditioners too. Maybe they need a break in time to new conditioners or something. I have since used this conditioner on other tanks and this same tank again with no issues. Could have something to do with the amount used? I always overuse my conditioner and never had issues in the past.


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## Mikee (May 8, 2006)

Air conditioner will definately lower the temp should keep it more stable to. My temp before without air conditioner in my room was reaching 28 and i had fans and tried to keep it down other ways but never seemed to cool my 29 gal down to the temp that i wanted. So i put air conditioner in my room and turned it on and let it run all day when temps were extremely hot here and my tank temp never went above 25 C. Now it usually stays between 24-26 no higher.


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

The more I've been thinking about it, I keep coming back to Betty's theory. I did replace the DIY CO2 sometime around when all this started happening. Could the combination of the different water conditioner lowering oxygen levels and the rapid rise in CO2 levels have asphyxiated the shrimp? I've heard CRS are not tollerant of high CO2 levels, are RCS the same? Most of them died overnight, when my plants are using up all the oxygen (what little may be in the water) and CO2 levels peak.


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## h20 plant (Feb 18, 2006)

Well great I just bought a bottle of prime and used it today now I am all worried.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Could be. Even tho it does reduce O2 saturation, I've never had any problems from that that I know of. From what I've read, the effect is more pronounced in warmer water and if there's no ammonia to detox (and my tap water has plenty of ammonia).


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

i think it's excel + nutrient dosing. I lost my entire stock of 40+ cherry reds when i transferred them from my q tank to main tank. The only difference between the two tank was i dosed nutrients + excel in the main tank.

The shrimps had the same symptons, they would turn belly up and kicking the legs for a while then die off. All i could do was watching them die one by one helplessly


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Ok, so I'm ready to reinvest in another stock of Cherries, but I'm worried about a repeat die off. I have a few questions to ask those who keep and breed cherries successfully:

1. Do you add Excel, if so, how much? Dosing according to the label? More? Less?

2. Do you run CO2, DIY or pressurized? What ppm CO2 do you normally have?

3. What water conditioner do you use for water changes?

4. Do you dose fertilizers, and if so, what type (dry, liquid, and what chemicals) and how much how often?

5. Do you protect your filter intake to prevent sucked up babies? What do you use? (I used a sponge but it clogged up rapidly and limited flow to the filter, a PITA)

I just don't want a repeat of my die off and would love to keep a successful breeding colony! Thanks!


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## Cassie (May 27, 2006)

I similarly had a massive die off of cherries, with them going belly up and twitching almost, and now that you mention it, I did dose excel, but no other ferts. I thought I lost my entire stock but I am now seeing some small ones appear, so the baby baby ones didn't die, but a majority of the adults did, which I found odd. 

I have since reduced excel to half of the suggested dose and have not noticed any new deaths.


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## YuccaPatrol (Mar 26, 2006)

DJKronik57 said:


> 5. Do you protect your filter intake to prevent sucked up babies? What do you use? (I used a sponge but it clogged up rapidly and limited flow to the filter, a PITA)
> 
> I just don't want a repeat of my die off and would love to keep a successful breeding colony! Thanks!


I won't answer all of your questions, but I don't dose any ferts at all in my planted shrimp tank.

Secondly, I use HOB filters with sponges on the intake. The trick to using them is to get an oversized filter that has a good way to adjust the flow control.

For instance, my choice for a 10 gallon tank is an Aquaclear 50. Yes, I know this filter is rated for up to a 50 gallon tank, but when the flow is adjusted to its lowest setting and a newly cleaned sponge is placed on it, the flow is very appropriate for a 10 gallon tank. As the sponge clogs, I turn up the flow until the time comes to clean the sponge again. My tank benefits from the much larger amount of filter media in the larger filter, and I benefit from only having to do minimal filter maintenance.


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks for your response. I have an AquaClear 200 on there right now, so it was already oversized (not sure what they changed the name to, this is an OLD filter!). However, it still slowed to almost a trickle within a week to two weeks of rinsing out the sponge, and on top of that, I put moss all over the filter tube to hide it which worked out great, except for the fact that it made taking the sponge on and off very difficult and destructive.

I think I'm going to wait on new cherry shrimp for now. I'm just too wary of Excel, CO2, and fertilizing and will wait till I set up my low-tech no-CO2 15 gallon tank to start a new cherry shrimp colony. Almost everyone I know that has always had great success (i.e. no die-offs) with these shrimp doesn't dose or doesn't dose much at all and often doesn't have CO2. For now, the tank will be a blue ram breeder.

I'm still interested in hearing other people's experiences and approaches to combining cherry shrimp and high-maintenance planted tanks or if anyone has any further ideas!


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## Mikee (May 8, 2006)

In my 2.5ft cherry/crs shrimp tank with moss, riccia, anubias being the main plants i dont use excel or any chemicals (i dont feel safe when adding chemicals). I run DIY CO2 2, 2L bottles with glass diffuser. For water conditioner i use Seachem Prime. I dont dose any ferts (i dont feel i need to for moss anubias and riccia). I try to stay away from HOB filters since you have to cover up the inlet which causes problems when it clogs up with debris. I use a sponge filter similar to hydro sponge filter although i will soon change to powerhead/sponge filter for better circulation and CO2 levels.


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## Mikee (May 8, 2006)

Oh and for temperature i usually like to keep it around 25 hope you have success with your next bunch!


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