# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Could Use Some Advice



## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

About 2 months ago I decided to change out the substrate in my tank to 100% Eco-Complete. I was having some success with plants, but felt that I needed to shift my set up to a more plant friendly environment. My problem is I have seen a real slow down in growth since then and even some plants that were never a prblem before, start declining. My Rotala Indica used to be a weed, now it barely clings to life, Sunset Hydro gets holes in the leaves and my Ludwegia will just die in the middle of a stem and fall off.

Here's my setup and params:

150 gal 100% Eco-Complete Substrate
Pressurized CO2 with an AM 1000 reactor
460 Watts of power compact lighting 12 hrs/day.

Fish Load:

8 Discus 4"-5"
20 small Rainbowfish
10 SAE's 2"- 4"
6 Corys
6 Pencilfish

Params:

NO3 = 25 ppm
PO4 = 1.0
PH Tap = 8.0
PH with CO2 = 6.8
KH = 9.5
CO2 = 45 ppm

Fert Routine:

Sunday:
50% WC
1.5 tsp. KNO3
.25 tsp KH2PO4
1 tsp. K2SO4

Mon, Wed, Fri:
15 mls Flourish
Tue, Thu, Sat:
15 mls Flourish Iron

I rarely dose macros during the week as I never run out of Nitrate. In fact it seems to build in the tank throughout the week like there is no uptake at all. Maybe it's the fish load?

I might add 1/8 tsp of KH2PO4 on Wed or Thu. I have zero algae which is good, but I am seeing poor growth and health from plants and can't figure it out. I get minimal pearling. I have a small nano tank also that I basically treat the same way and it's perling like club soda!

Any ideas or advice???
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## alexperez (Oct 8, 2004)

It has to be one of the plant nutrients.
Have you verified that your test kits are accurate?
I have been burned more than once by thinking
I had enough of this or enough of that cause my test kits
said so. 
For Example. 
My KH is 3 (Lamotte kit) my PH is 5.4 to 5.6 (2 different electronic meters.)
If I go by what they say my CO2 is around 358ppm to 226ppm.
But my fish are fine. If I was to set my CO2 based on a KH of 3 then
I would have to set the ph at around 6.2 or so.

Another Example:
I have had my ReadSea NO3 Kit read at over 40ppm.
While my Lamotte Kit read at ~12ppm. So again if I
Followed the RedSea kit I would bottom out on NO3 in no time. 


I would start to add more of each nutrients and see if they 
make a difference.
Add more CO2 – Just don’t kill the fish.
Add more KNO3
Add more PO4, etc..


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

Is it possible something is messing with the KH so that CO2 is not as it seems? I have a measured KH of 9.5 with 2 separate test kits. My Milwaukee PH controller says the PH is 6.8. (I turn off the CO2 at night at the PH rises to 7.2 - 7.4) During the photo period I keep it at 6.8 which implies CO2 of 45 ppm. When I dose phosphates (KH2PO4) am I adding anything that could be effecting the KH? 

I just dont get it. I have lots of light (3 wpg), lot's of CO2 (45 ppm) and lots of N (15 - 25 ppm)


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

It is possible for things to interfer with the KH test. I most often hear of that in tanks with a fairly low natural KH. Wood and peat or other similar natural organic sources are likely culprits. Some tank additives can also mess with KH. The KH2PO4 you add would have to reach very high concentrations to cause problems with the KH. Are you using any other water additives?

I'm not aware of cases where similar symptoms were reported after switching to Eco-Complete.

The first thing I would look to is the CO2 level. Can you use a pH test to check your controller? Does turning the lights on and off change your pH reading? How about turning off other in-tank electical equipment, like heaters or powerheads? You can cross-check you CO2 determination with a direct CO2 test kit (Tetra makes one) and see if its results are consistent.

Can you describe the plant symptoms in more detail? How about photos?


Roger Miller


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> It is possible for things to interfer with the KH test. I most often hear of that in tanks with a fairly low natural KH. Wood and peat or other similar natural organic sources are likely culprits. Some tank additives can also mess with KH. The KH2PO4 you add would have to reach very high concentrations to cause problems with the KH. Are you using any other water additives?
> 
> [end quote]
> ...


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

The medications are a possible problem.

Normally fish should not be treated in a planted tank. They should be removed to a bare, usually unlit tank and treated there. That is both to avoid damage to the plants and to increase the effectiveness of the medications. If you use medications in a planted tank some of the medication will end up binding to or reacting with plants, wood or other decor; it does the fish no good.

Filtering with carbon might help remove a little residual. Use fresh new carbon and don't run it for more than about 24 hours. After that it will lose its effectiveness.

The medication that is most likely causing problems is whatever has already been adsorbed by the plants. Filtering the water won't help with that problem. The plants will just have to grow through the problem.

Either R. indica or Sunset Hygro is an inexpensive test plant. You might consider buying a new bunch. Put it in and see how it grows along side the plants that went through the medication. If the new plants grow and the old plants don't then that would suggest (without proving a thing) that the old plants were damaged by the medication. It would also get you some replacement plants.

You might also look for new shoots near the base of the old stems. If new shoots are coming in and growing more normally that would also suggest that the old stems were damaged by the medication.


Roger Miller


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

Thanks Roger. I really apprecate the help. I am running caron in a HOT Magnum for the next 12 hours. I did exactly what you said and added some new R. Indiaca and Hydro just today. We'll see how it goes. The mosses (Singapore) that are dying were put in the tank well after treatment. I really think I am short changing the macros due to fear of harming the Discus. I am doing a mid week WC (50%) butadding full EI doses now. I think I notice fuller new growth, but too early to tell.

Thanks!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Um, how can you be short on macro nutrients with the nitrate level running over 40 ppm? A large part of that NO3 is likely to be from KNO3, so I expect that your K is at least reasonably high. Do you know the PO4 level? Your dose seems adequate.

I've been dosing 1/2 tsp of KNO3/wk, sometimes adding extra at mid-week. I don't add K2SO4 -- the K in KNO3 is more than adequate unless a large part of your NO3 comes from fish waste. I dose PO4 at about 1 mg/L per week. I don't measure the PO4 concentration because the results are misleading. Your mileage may vary.

The macronutrient levels don't have a direct effect on photosynthesis, so when plants stop bubbling you need to look elsewhere. Nutrient shortages will slow down photosynthesis only after they are maintained for a while and after there are visible difficiencies in the plants. Even then, I've seen miserably nutrient-deficient plants that would still bubble.


Roger Miller


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

> Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> Um, how can you be short on macro nutrients with the nitrate level running over 40 ppm? A large part of that NO3 is likely to be from KNO3, so I expect that your K is at least reasonably high. Do you know the PO4 level? Your dose seems adequate.
> 
> Roger Miller


What I mean by that is; due to my previous fear of overdoing "nitrate" for the discus, I was doing a 50% WC then measuring NO3. I then added (according to Chuck's Calculator) enough KNO3 to bring the level up to 10 ppm. Then I would rely on the fish waste to add to it during the week.

Regarding PO4 that's a strange one. I dose (according to Chuck's Calculator) enought to add 1.5 ppm. However whenever I iest it hardly ever tests above .5 and ususlly around .2 ppm. Something is using up the phosphates at a higher than expected rate.

That's good to know about the Macro's affect on photosynthesis. That said, whay no pearling then?


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

> Originally posted by imatrout:
> 
> 
> > quote:Originally posted by Roger Miller:
> ...


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> Originally posted by imatrout:
> Something is using up the phosphates at a higher than expected rate.


Not necessarily "using" it. Phosphate doesn't stay in solution -- especially in hard water. It precipitates as a number of different calcium phosphate compounds. Phosphates are also strong ly adsorbed to many surfaces, especially iron oxides and hydroxides and anything that contains or may be coated by the hydroxides (e.g. soil particles).

When the phosphate levels drop it doesn't mean that something is using it, it just means that it isn't in solution any more.

Roger Miller


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

I have a 100gallon planted discus tank, feed 100% frozen bloodworms, at a rate of 1 pound/week. 

I dose 1/4 tsp KH2PO4 every other day, among other ferts, so I dose more PO4 than you do. This gives me zero algae growth on glass. Weekly combined trace dosing about 100ml-120ml (some CSM+B+IRON, some Flourish comprehensive).

I have dosed numerous discus medications in the tank, they all worked as expected. Some medications do react with trace/ferts, and caused quite severe deficiency symptoms: pale/pink/red new growth that is not normal color, stunted new growth. But I never lost any plants due to medication. They always recover after a few large water changes. 

I did not see you mention GH. Ca and Mg are also important plant nutrients. I found that my Mg was low even in GH 8 water. Dosing epsom salt helped a lot with plant deficiencies.


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

You guys are GREAT. Thanks shalu, I've seen your posts on the discus forums. 

My GH is 15 and I too was concerned about the Mg proportion. I dose 1tsp of Epsom Salt after each WC just in case. By the way, some of the medication symptoms on plants you described are similar to what I too am seeing. Pink or even bleached white looking leaves. The one I do not get is the moss getting hard and dying....

Roger, Can the greater surface area of the Eco-Complete be the reason the PO4 seems to be "used"? Maybe the greater surface area of the Eco acts like a sponge the PO4 attaches to?

Just a guess....


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

I dose 2 TABLESPOONS epsom salt after each water change in my 100gallon.

My alternanthera was severely stunted before, now growing normally with that much Mg.


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

Wow, Tablespoons, was I way off or what? I do have a high GH though so maybe not to the point of causing a MG deficiency.

Isn't Epsom Salts good for discus' digestive system anyway? Are there bad side effects to too much Mg?

Thanks!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> Roger, Can the greater surface area of the Eco-Complete be the reason the PO4 seems to be "used"? Maybe the greater surface area of the Eco acts like a sponge the PO4 attaches to?


That is possible, but I wouldn't expect a large effect unless something was circulating water in your substrate.

Roger Miller


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## imatrout (May 12, 2005)

Thanks Roger,

You and Shalu have made this a very productive thread for me. The tank already seems to be looking better. (new growth looks healthy) Thank you both!


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