# limnophila id please



## AQUANZ

Bought this plant as "limnophila aromatica" from a herb shop here in NZ. Underwater it stays bright green even under intense light and with high iron levels. What else could it be? A green variety?

Here is a pic out of water


----------



## catwat

Looks like Limnophila 'Wavy', which stays bright green underwater.


----------



## Newt

That's not Limno aromatica unless it still in its emersed form.

Submersed it looks like this>


----------



## Cavan Allen

That's the submersed Malaysian form, Newt. It was (is?) classified as _L. hippuridoides_ (not hippuroides). It's a very widespread species, and there are indeed plants that look similar to the photo at the top, even submersed, where they have fewer leaves per whorl. Other plants may or may not belong to _L. aromatica_ ('Sulawesi' probably doesn't). The answers to sorting all that out are not so easy to find, it seems.


----------



## Newt

Thank you for the clarification, Cavan.
You, Bigstick and HeyPK are a great plant species resource.


----------



## SOLOMON

The aussie one grows similarly http://www.aquagreen.com.au/plant_data/Limnophila_aromatica.html


----------



## miremonster

Cavan Allen said:


> That's the submersed Malaysian form, Newt. It was (is?) classified as _L. hippuridoides_ (not hippuroides).


Yes, also Kasselmann (2010), "Aquarienpflanzen", classifies this Malaysian form, mostly called "L. aromatica" in the trade, as _L. hippuridoides_.
@Cavan: till now I didn't find a publication where L. hippuridoides is synonymized with L. aromatica. Do You have infos about the aromatica/hippuridoides issue?


----------



## AQUANZ

SOLOMON said:


> The aussie one grows similarly http://www.aquagreen.com.au/plant_data/Limnophila_aromatica.html


the flower is also the same as whats in that link.


----------



## Cavan Allen

miremonster said:


> Yes, also Kasselmann (2010), "Aquarienpflanzen", classifies this Malaysian form, mostly called "L. aromatica" in the trade, as _L. hippuridoides_.
> @Cavan: till now I didn't find a publication where L. hippuridoides is synonymized with L. aromatica. Do You have infos about the aromatica/hippuridoides issue?


I have not been able to find anything either. To me, the differences given between the species seem relatively minor and perhaps might be influenced by environment. But before I change the entry, I'd like the opinion of someone very familiar with the genus, since the name _L. aromatica_ has come into such common use, and I'd rather not change it back if _L. hippuridoides_ turns out to be not currently accepted. Curiously, the latter name does not appear in Tropicos, though perhaps that's simply an error of omission.

_L. aromaticoides_ is synonymized with _L. aromatica_ in The Flora of China. 
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=3&taxon_id=200020693


----------



## miremonster

In "The Plant List" Limnophila hippuridoides is an "unresolved name":
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2497758


----------



## Cavan Allen

Ah, thanks for the link! I should have searched Kew. It makes sense though, that it's unresolved.


----------



## miremonster

I've noticed "The Plant List" only recently. Seems to be very useful as working list, with links to many other online ressources.
So we can only hope that taxonomists will solve the L. aromatica/hipp. issue.
Kasselmann (2010) treats L. aromaticoides as own species and means a plant from Taiwan, staying light green and having up to 8 leaves per whorl submerged (difference to her L. aromatica) and white flowers. When treated as synonym, I'd suggest the name Limnophila aromatica "Taiwan" for the cultivated "aromaticoides".
It might be that I possess this plant emersed, not flowering yet. Submerged and under intense light it was a huge one, bigger than hippuridoides, with slightly reddish leaves. Under moderate light it may be green.


----------



## AQUANZ

here is a photo of he flowers from my plant.


----------



## miremonster

Nice... I'd say it's clearly Limnophila aromatica (in the narrower sense). I've seen flowers on the "rau om" - L. aromatica sold as spice herb looking alike.


----------



## AQUANZ

Thanks. It was purchased from a herb shop here in NZ. So is the red aromatica sold as "rice paddy herb" also?


----------



## Dave Wilson

I know this is an old thread, I have not been on APC since 2011. The red Limnophila I have and grow as Limnophila aromatica, Asian form and referred to earlier as L.aromaticoides is not that plant according to Dr Shen Horn Yen, Taiwanese Entomologist who described the plant L.aromaticoides he is a multidisciplined Scientist keen on water plants. He saw the red one and said it was different to aromaticoides.

He visited Aquagreen in 2011 looking for Nymphula sp. Chinagraph moth larvae that eat our plants. He found two new species of that pest on my water pests. The green Limnophila aromatica in the Aquagreen photo is also called Buffalo Spinach in Indonesia, our near Northern neighbours. The one in the Aquagreen photo is from Anniversary Creek about 100 South of Darwin in the NT of Australia. Shen Horn Yen has been here twice looking for new insects, he is passionate about water plants and says I have a new species of Limnophila that I found in the Moyle River about 500 km South West of Darwin. I can put some pictures here if anyone is interested.

Dave
Howard Springs NT.
http://www.aquagreen.com.au


----------



## miremonster

@Dave Wilson: Thank You for visiting again! That sounds very interesting; I've also noticed that the red "aromatica" (with six or more submersed leaves per whorl, = hippuridoides) is in the trade as "aromaticoides". I wonder if the true aromaticoides from Taiwan (white flowers) is still cultivated somewhere. 
Btw, I think it's excellent that Your business is in close touch with science; very informative website. (And I have a couple of questions regarding Australian water plants, but they would be off-topic here)

@AQUANZ: Sorry, I missed Your last posting more than 2 years ago; I don't think that the red "aromatica", that means Limnophila hippuridoides according to Kasselmann, is sold as spice herb as well. As I already mentioned in another thread, I've also tried the "rice paddy herb" Limnophila submersed, and it looked like Guitarfish's L. aromatica "Wavy": http://www.guitarfish.org/2009/09/14/limnophila-sp-wavy

The plant I mentioned in posting #12 that I thought being L. aromaticoides flowered 2 years ago, and the flowers weren't white, in contrast to the aromaticoides description. Its identity is unclear, some hobbyists in Germany refer to it provisionally as Limnophila "hippuridoides Green". Under the same conditions it's bigger than the usual hippuridoides and green to reddish. Often more than 3 leaves per whorl => not matching Kasselmann's aromatica description. In the trade it's labeled as L. aromatica. http://www.flowgrow.de/pflanzen-allgemein/mal-ein-paar-pflanzenfotos-t13566.html#p153473
http://www.flowgrow.de/artenbestimmung/limnophila-t29016.html#p236911

For comparison Limnophila hippuridoides flowering: http://www.flowgrow.de/pflanzen-allgemein/mal-ein-paar-pflanzenfotos-t13566.html#p162183


----------



## Cavan Allen

I have searched for the answer to the aromatica/hippuridoides issue and have not come up with a good answer. I have concluded that there is likely NOT an answer presently.  Flora of China has aromaticoides as a synonym of aromatica, but they make no mention of hippuridoides (outside of floral area, but still). I will look into it further as time permits.


----------



## miremonster

My impression: too much taxonomical issues, too few taxonomists - or too few money for taxonomical research...
But apart from their species belonging, would it be possible to record all forms of the Limnophila aromatica alliance floating around in the aquarium hobby and trade? I don't really have an overview, but that comes in my mind:

- the red one with many submersed leaves per whorl => L. hippuridoides according to Kasselmann
- the L. aromaticoides according to Kasselmann = a Taiwanese form of L. aromatica according to Flora of China
- the odd L. "hippuridoides Green" I mentioned above
- Limnophila aromatica "Wavy" = the "rice paddy herb" of the Asian markets
- the Aquagreen L. aromatica from Australia, Anniversary Creek
- the L. aromatica depicted in the Kasselmann (2010) book, as emersed plant with 2 leaves per node 
- Limnophila sp. "Broad" (APC Plantfinder)
- L. sp. "Sulawesi" (dito)
- what else?


----------



## Cavan Allen

There is also _L. repens_, which I don't think is really aromatica. The latter is a much larger plant in general aspect and does not have the small grainy bumps over the leaf surface I'm not sure what that character should be called, but it's evident even on blackened 150 year old specimens. I really need to get some going emersed and in flower again.

I think the stuff in the original Aquarium Plants might be the same as the Asian grocery plant; leaves per node can vary depending on conditions and how long it has been emersed.


----------



## miremonster

Yes; I didn't list the Limnophila repens (aromatica "mini" in Kasselm. 2010) because the pedicel length (I know, quite plastic) doesn't match aromatica in Flora of China (also in Philcox 1970? I still have to get that paper). I've tried to compare in detail her description and arguments for aromatica with the Flora of China descriptions, but the matter is too confusing for me at the moment. It may be helpful to write a table to compare the characters of the real aquarium plants and the descriptions (aromatica, repens, chinensis, ...) in literature. And I think it's necessary to write an article about the issue, e.g. with explicit reasons for the ID of the "mini" as repens, or to show where are open questions.

Grainy bumps on L. repens leaves: perhaps raised stomata? (I don't have the plant)

I've found an online version of the L. aromaticoides original description (Yang & Yen 1997): http://ejournal.sinica.edu.tw/bbas/content/1997/4/bot384-11.html
Apparently the leaf number per whorl (=> 10) and presence of submerged leaves used for delimitation of aromaticoides aren't found in the L. aromatica description in Flora of China. - Fruit capsule form: quite confusing...


----------



## Cavan Allen

You can see what I mean there. In Aquatic and Wetland Plants of India by Cook, the description of _L. repens_ says that flowers are "subsessile to shortly pedicellate, solitary in leaf axils or occasionally in short axillary spikes or racemes; pedicels (.5-) 1-2 (-4) mm long."

I've found that in many plants, the description of submerged characters is often entirely missing, even when changes are indeed noteworthy.

There is a book on the floodplain flora of northern Australia by Cowie, Short and Osterkamp that shows another way to distinguish Limnophilas; by the air channels in stem cross sections. Each species is supposedly distinctive in that respect. One of our moderators (bigstick120) has a photo of the stem cross section of the hippuridoides. Which does it match? _L. chinensis_, of course!


----------



## asukawashere

miremonster said:


> My impression: too much taxonomical issues, too few taxonomists - or too few money for taxonomical research...
> But apart from their species belonging, would it be possible to record all forms of the Limnophila aromatica alliance floating around in the aquarium hobby and trade? I don't really have an overview, but that comes in my mind:
> 
> - the red one with many submersed leaves per whorl => L. hippuridoides according to Kasselmann
> - the L. aromaticoides according to Kasselmann = a Taiwanese form of L. aromatica according to Flora of China
> - the odd L. "hippuridoides Green" I mentioned above
> - Limnophila aromatica "Wavy" = the "rice paddy herb" of the Asian markets
> - the Aquagreen L. aromatica from Australia, Anniversary Creek
> - the L. aromatica depicted in the Kasselmann (2010) book, as emersed plant with 2 leaves per node
> - Limnophila sp. "Broad" (APC Plantfinder)
> - L. sp. "Sulawesi" (dito)
> - what else?


I'm not sure how L. sp. 'Sulawesi' really fits in with the rest of the lot. I've flowered it, and it's pretty different from L. aromatica (or at least the L. aromatica we have around here). For comparison's sake:

L. sp. 'Sulawesi' has a single flower per node (I never saw two flowers at the same node, and the thing flowered all spring and summer):








They do have fairly long pedicels, as you can see.

Here's the flower:








5 petals, fairly large for a Limnophila

In comparison, here's the plant we have circulating around the U.S. as run-of-the-mill L. aromatica:








Multiple flowers per node, 4 petals, bright yellow throat on the flower (I know color doesn't mean a lot from a taxonomic standpoint, but it is a difference!). Petal tips, especially the top petal, have a bit of a point to them.

The plantfinder pic of the flower shows much the same thing:









I do find it interesting that the photo from AQUANZ shows a 5-petaled inflorescence with notably rounder tips on the petals...whereas miremonster's links show various 4-petaled (-ish) flowers with various tip shapes. Do any keys say anything about the 4-petal/5-petal difference?


----------



## miremonster

@Cavan: Kasselm. 2010 writes that the "mini" isn't repens because of occurrence of 3 leaves per node, and glabrous or glandular calyx lobes, vs. repens having 2 leaves and hairy calyx lobes. I can't really judge that at the moment.

Treatment of L. aromatica in this book: depending on origin, different aquarium suitability of aromatica forms. Plants from Sri Lanka and Sulawesi(!) are written to be well suited for submersed culture.

Photo of repens: the silvery spots look like those of Bucephalandra and Schismatoglottis roseospatha. I've checked the spots/bumps on Buce leaves with a microscope and saw raised stomata. Therefore I believe also the bumps on L. repens leaves are such stomata.

@asukawashere: interesting! I think, it's good to record all characters we see on the cultivated plants, independent of their probable taxonomic value and interpretation.
So the "regular" aromatica with the somewhat pointed upper petal lobe is the red one => hippuridoides sensu Kasselmann? - Also Anja's pic of hippuridoides flowers shows that: http://www.flowgrow.de/pflanzen-allgemein/mal-ein-paar-pflanzenfotos-t13566.html#p162183


----------



## Cavan Allen

miremonster said:


> @Cavan: Kasselm. 2010 writes that the "mini" isn't repens because of occurrence of 3 leaves per node, and glabrous or glandular calyx lobes, vs. repens having 2 leaves and hairy calyx lobes.


The plant we have here does have somewhat hairy calyx lobes. "subglabrous to hirsute or hispid". Minute, but And the whorled leaf character? As I mentioned in another post, that means very little; there are many plant descriptions that totally leave out characters displayed by submerged plants. In fact, many people who specialize in some plants don't know that they are capable of growing under water! In any case, I plan on growing some emersed to have another go at getting a good fertile specimen.


----------



## miremonster

Thx for the infos! The photo in Kasselmann 2010 (German edition) p. 397 on the right shows an emersed plant with whorls of 3 leaves; flowers short stalked; image resolution not high enough to judge what kind of hairs are on the calyx (tiny light dots: may be glands). If that L. 'Mini' examined by Kasselmann is different from Yours? Perhaps there's a herbarium specimen of her plant?

Seeing the pic of emersed L. "Sulawesi": the hairy pedicel and calyx doesn't fit the description of L. aromatica indeed.

I wonder if also the look of Limnophila stem cross sections is changeable depending on emersed/submerged growth.


----------

