# H2O2 didn't kill my BBA?!?



## jschall

First off, let me describe my algae so that we can establish that it is in fact BBA:
Dark green, 1/4" tufts of fine fuzz growing on leaf edges and driftwood. Definitely BBA, right?

Alright, so I turned off my lights and filters, took a syringe of hydrogen peroxide, applied it directly to a patch of BBA. Very few, if any, bubbles. Applied more to some on the driftwood. The driftwood fizzed like nuts, but the algae itself didn't.
So, I went out and bought new hydrogen peroxide, expiration 11/13. Same thing, more but not a lot of bubbling.
I took a container, filled it with slightly warm water, dumped most of the new bottle of h2o2 in (this is a 32oz bottle, I probably dumped 20oz of h2o2 in there), put in my bba-infested bolbitis and left it for 2 minutes.

It's been a couple days since I did that. I've continued to turn off the filters and lights and apply h2o2 with a syringe every night. The BBA has a tiny bit of a whitish sickly look to it now, but it's still VERY strong and will not come off. 

What's up? What do I need to do to kill this ****?


By the way, as far as preventing more from growing, so far I've dosed some KNO3 and switched to a siesta photoperiod (5on 2off 5on 12off). This tank has 64w of T8. Normally I don't put anything but seachem flourish in this tank. I had previously noticed one of my anubias put out a tiny yellow leaf, which I looked up and found it was a symptom of nitrogen deficiency. So, I dosed the KNO3, and hopefully it'll get the plants uptaking more phosphate.


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## jschall

Oh, and no excel unless things get really out of hand. I have vals in this tank that I want to keep.


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## ecotanker

I read somewhere either on this forum or another that the lights need to be on to activate the H202 reaction. Hope this helps.


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## niko

BBA comes in lots of different flavors or if you prefer to call them that way - states of mind.

Some BBA is easily killed with Excel or H202. Some (although looking the same) is very tough to kill. To get an idea how hard get this - I've taken pebbles with BBA on them out of the tank, placed them in a cup, treated them as described and returned back to the tank to see what happens. First I poured boiling water over them. Nothing. Next experiment - poured saturated table salt solution. Nothing. Filled the cup with about 10% by volume Excel. Nothing.

So from that strange experiment you can conclude that you don't how how hard it will be to kill your BBA. It maybe just a question of spot treating with Excel for 1-2 days. Or using a 1/2 gal. bottle and not seeing much improvement.

Chemical warfare is wrong. If you have let your tank develop BBA then something is wrong with it and it's not the lack of H202, Excel or a weekly nuclear explosion that keeps all algae at bay.

You have somehow let organics accumulate in the water. No way to say how. So don't worry about the reasons, but about how to solve the problem.

Here's a funny thing about your post - you do not mention any extra water changes.

I'd start with that first. Or in your case - along with the H202 treatment. BBA could care less about light so don't play with your light schedule. Feed the fish less. Make sure you see and love to hate any tiny particle that you see floating free in the water - that's an indicator that the water is not almost void of organics. And that BBA has a buffet set-up to eat and grow healthy.

--Nikolay


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## BJRuttenberg

Im sorry to hear about you problem. BBA is a common problem and though not easily treatable, it *IS* treatable, so don't panic. Amano shrimp or Flourish Excel - not both at the same time - are in my experience the best ways to treat BBA. BE WARNED: The excel will kill the shrimp. 

But I would suggest a multi-pronged attack here. First do a big 50% water change. Start spot treating the BBA (to the extent that you can) for a week or so, then do another large H2O change and add some Amano shrimp. The shrimp do a GREAT job of keeping this stuff at bay - they are prodigious algae eaters. Good Luck!


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## jschall

niko said:


> BBA comes in lots of different flavors or if you prefer to call them that way - states of mind.
> 
> Some BBA is easily killed with Excel or H202. Some (although looking the same) is very tough to kill. To get an idea how hard get this - I've taken pebbles with BBA on them out of the tank, placed them in a cup, treated them as described and returned back to the tank to see what happens. First I poured boiling water over them. Nothing. Next experiment - poured saturated table salt solution. Nothing. Filled the cup with about 10% by volume Excel. Nothing.
> 
> So from that strange experiment you can conclude that you don't how how hard it will be to kill your BBA. It maybe just a question of spot treating with Excel for 1-2 days. Or using a 1/2 gal. bottle and not seeing much improvement.


I really don't want to have to prune my plants, because they're very slow growing (bolbitis), so I really need a way to actually remove it/kill it. If necessary, I'll take the plants off the driftwood and do a chlorine bleach dip.



> Chemical warfare is wrong. If you have let your tank develop BBA then something is wrong with it and it's not the lack of H202, Excel or a weekly nuclear explosion that keeps all algae at bay.


I'm very well aware that I can't eliminate algae completely with hydrogen peroxide. I need to remove the current algae as well as prevent more.
I'm looking for suggestions as to how to kill what's already there, not to be scolded for letting it grow in the first place. I'm also open to suggestions as far as prevention, although as noted in my first post in the thread, I've already taken some steps.



> You have somehow let organics accumulate in the water. No way to say how. So don't worry about the reasons, but about how to solve the problem.


Organics accumulate in organic systems. I do a 50% WC every week, so they should be fairly minimal.



> Here's a funny thing about your post - you do not mention any extra water changes.


Again, I do 50% a week and I've been fighting this on and off for a while.



> I'd start with that first. Or in your case - along with the H202 treatment. BBA could care less about light so don't play with your light schedule.


The light schedule I switched to isn't about light, it's about CO2. It gives the tank a break halfway through so that CO2 can build back up.


> Feed the fish less.


I feed my fish pretty minimally, but pretty minimally is quite a bit when you're keeping larger fish.



BJRuttenberg said:


> Im sorry to hear about you problem. BBA is a common problem and though not easily treatable, it *IS* treatable, so don't panic. Amano shrimp or Flourish Excel - not both at the same time - are in my experience the best ways to treat BBA. BE WARNED: The excel will kill the shrimp.
> 
> But I would suggest a multi-pronged attack here. First do a big 50% water change. Start spot treating the BBA (to the extent that you can) for a week or so, then do another large H2O change and add some Amano shrimp. The shrimp do a GREAT job of keeping this stuff at bay - they are prodigious algae eaters. Good Luck!


So, I should melt my vallisneria with excel and then feed my bichirs (big carnivorous fish, for the uninitiated) a delicious, expensive shrimp dinner? I somehow don't think that will help much.

I may end up having to dip the affected plants in a chlorine bleach solution, but I hope I don't.


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## niko

Ah, that's a non-CO2 tank if your bolbitis grows slowly. In a CO2-supplied tank the bolbitis goes crazy.

In a non-CO2 supplied tank fighting algae is a matter of patience. Maybe even months of it.

Don't get confused about the tone of my post. It's not meant to make you feel like you don't know anything or don't do the right thing. It's written in a way to make you think twice about the things you do already.

Like the 50% weekly water change. It should take care of organics but it does not.

Next good question is "What's your filtration like?"

--Nikolay


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## jschall

niko said:


> Ah, that's a non-CO2 tank if your bolbitis grows slowly. In a CO2-supplied tank the bolbitis goes crazy.
> 
> In a non-CO2 supplied tank fighting algae is a matter of patience. Maybe even months of it.
> 
> Don't get confused about the tone of my post. It's not meant to make you feel like you don't know anything or don't do the right thing. It's written in a way to make you think twice about the things you do already.
> 
> Like the 50% weekly water change. It should take care of organics but it does not.
> 
> Next good question is "What's your filtration like?"
> 
> --Nikolay


Can algae process organics? I thought they only processed inorganic macronutrients.
Filtration is an emperor 400 (400gph) and a cascade 1000 (265gph if I recall correctly, but it's only running at like 150 because my UV sterilizer is restricting it quite a lot).

Interestingly enough, the BBA was only really growing strongly on that one plant. Today, I checked underneath the light above it and there was a paper towel sitting on the lens! Dunno how that got there. :der: So, it wasn't getting nearly as much light as the rest of the tank. The bolbitis on the other end of the tank has zero bba on it.

The bolbitis is now dying because of the H2O2. The BBA is NOT. Large translucent yellow patches are appearing on the leaves where it was treated. Do I need to trim this off or will it repair itself?

I somehow don't think the BBA will go away by itself. Will it actually die off in unfavorable conditions, or do I have to trim or bleach it off?
Will a chlorine bleach dip completely kill the plant? Anyone have experience with bleach dipping bolbitis?


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## jschall

The other thing about this particular bolbitis is that I moved it and accidentally broke it off its driftwood a while back. Might've stressed it out and weakened it.

Right now, looking at how much damage I did with the H2O2 - I'm considering removing most of the leaves from the rhizome and letting it grow new ones. Thoughts?


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## jschall

Well, I just went ahead and trimmed about 8 months worth of growth off of the plant.


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## BJRuttenberg

I would have pulled the vals, put them in a big bowl for a week and dosed the excel...would have saved you the trouble of trimming (it's going to come back).

Additionally, a chlorine bath is going to do a better job of killing your plants than the algae.

You should know that if you are keeping fish that preclude the use of effective algae control critters (amano shrimp) you going to have a difficult time in this hobby.

You should also know that being unfriendly when people are trying to help you (esp. people who have been through the same frustration and learned from it) you're going to have a difficult time on this forum. I think you BBA growth is somehow a reflection of you negative attitude.

Best of luck in the future.


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## Zapins

In my experience H2O2 doesn't really affect BBA. Only flourish Excel kills it off. Also, I have found that once BBA gets a hold in your tank you need to kill it off with excel or it never goes away. I fought the stuff for months before learning about Excel.

I don't think BBA grows from nutrient imbalances, perhaps it is triggered by a build up of organics in the tank since it seems to grow near areas with low flow - where organics build up. But in any case changing tank parameters doesn't seem to help once it starts growing.

H2O2 works on spot algae and cladophora but not really that well on other types of algae.


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## freshyleif

WC,WC,WC,WC AND CLEAN FILTERS WEEKLY.


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## jschall

> You should also know that being unfriendly when people are trying to help you (esp. people who have been through the same frustration and learned from it) you're going to have a difficult time on this forum. I think you BBA growth is somehow a reflection of you negative attitude.


I wanted to deal with this first so I moved it to the beginning of my post - I did not intend to come across as unfriendly. Additionally, I try not to have a negative attitude toward anything in this hobby, because I understand entirely that getting angry won't fix the algae issue. I was merely trying to guide the conversation from what I already know towards explaining what I DON'T know.



BJRuttenberg said:


> I would have pulled the vals, put them in a big bowl for a week and dosed the excel...would have saved you the trouble of trimming (it's going to come back).


I am trying to correct the root cause. I think the reason it grew on that plant and not the other ones was the decreased light due to a blockage underneath the light.
The BBA would have come back after an excel overdose too, if the root cause wasn't corrected. I'm also worried if I pull up the vals, the root tabs that I put in the substrate might be dissolved in the water and exacerbate the problem.



> Additionally, a chlorine bath is going to do a better job of killing your plants than the algae.


I've dipped anubias in 1:19 bleach:water and it didn't affect it in the slightest. I've read reports about dipping bolbitis and it sounded like it does ok. It is irrelevant now, I simply trimmed all the BBA infested leaves off the plant (mainly because they were turning brown and dying from the H2O2.)



> You should know that if you are keeping fish that preclude the use of effective algae control critters (amano shrimp) you going to have a difficult time in this hobby.


I have large groups of "pest" snails which came with plants (I kind of like them) which keep the algae on my rocks short and seem to keep the leaves of the anubias clean. They won't eat BBA though. I can't keep SAEs or any kind of shrimp.



> I don't think BBA grows from nutrient imbalances, perhaps it is triggered by a build up of organics in the tank since it seems to grow near areas with low flow - where organics build up. But in any case changing tank parameters doesn't seem to help once it starts growing.


The low flow thing doesn't seem to hold water with my tank. It only grew on that one plant and the driftwood next to it, and it grew right on the spray bar.
It still is on the driftwood. I'm not sure if its spreading or not.


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## jschall

Here's what I've been doing to try to control it:
Lighting schedule - switched from 12 hours on to 5 on - 2 off - 5 on, so that CO2 has 2 hours to build back up mid-day.
Dosing KNO3 1/4 tsp after weekly water change. I noticed my anubias put out a tiny yellow leaf, which I read was a sign of nitrogen deficiency, so I had the water tested at the LFS (my nitrate test kit from API is expired) and I had 0 nitrates. So I started dosing the KNO3. 1/4tsp is 1/3 of the EI dose, but since EI is based on 3x/week, it's actually 1/9th.

Should I add more KNO3? Maybe 1/4tsp 3x/week?
I could fairly easily add DIY CO2, should I do that?


Anyway, my primary question right now is: There's still BBA on the mopani wood. How can I remove it? Just pull it out and go nuts with a wire brush? Should I bleach dip it? Is it safe to bleach dip driftwood? Will the bleach even kill BBA if the peroxide didn't? Do I even need to do anything, or will it die by itself eventually?
Would hot water work? What about drying it out?

I'd love to mechanically remove it as well as kill it. I know no one else will really notice it on the driftwood but every time I look at my tank I can't help but look at it.


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## BJRuttenberg

> You should know that if you are keeping fish that preclude the use of effective algae control critters (amano shrimp) you going to have a difficult time in this hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> I have large groups of "pest" snails which came with plants (I kind of like them) which keep the algae on my rocks short and seem to keep the leaves of the anubias clean. They won't eat BBA though. I can't keep SAEs or any kind of shrimp.
Click to expand...

I've tried wire brushes, even a mild bleach dip before...nothing kills the stuff. You need something to eat it...


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## Zapins

jschall said:


> Anyway, my primary question right now is: There's still BBA on the mopani wood. How can I remove it?


Remove the vals and use excel. Spot treat using 2x the initial dose and then spot treat at 2 times the daily dose from then on.

Worry about the "root cause" later. Your first order of business is killing it now.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi jschall,

Hydrogen Peroxide comes in different strengths, what concentration did you use? I have been fighting an outbreak of BBA for the last couple of weeks (I let my CO2 level drop and canister filter get dirty) with good results using Hydrogen Peroxide (stabilized) 3% solution. I treat the area(s) after the lights have been on for at least 30 minutes. I turn off the filter about 5 minutes before dosing so there is minimal water movement and the H2O2 stays on the BBA as long as possible.

The BBA bubbles like crazy within a couple of minutes of being hit and the bubbling lasts for about 30 minutes. 24 hours later the treated BBA is dead and white. I use a "dosing syringe" from the drug store for dosing. I do not dose more than a total 2.0 ml per gallon (water volume, not tank volume) per treatment and I only dose once a day. I turn the filter back on once the bubbling has stopped.

I have Cardinals, Rasboras, Otos, Corys, and SAE in the tank with no ill effects. Plants have been unaffected by the treatment and vary from hardy to very sensitive. Plants include two types of Java Fern, L. aromatica, H. 'Sunset', Ceratopteris, Cabomba, M. minuta, Ludwigia, Crypts, and Syngonanthus 'Belem'. Hope this helps!


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## jschall

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi jschall,
> 
> Hydrogen Peroxide comes in different strengths, what concentration did you use? I have been fighting an outbreak of BBA for the last couple of weeks (I let my CO2 level drop and canister filter get dirty) with good results using Hydrogen Peroxide (stabilized) 3% solution. I treat the area(s) after the lights have been on for at least 30 minutes. I turn off the filter about 5 minutes before dosing so there is minimal water movement and the H2O2 stays on the BBA as long as possible.
> 
> The BBA bubbles like crazy within a couple of minutes of being hit and the bubbling lasts for about 30 minutes. 24 hours later the treated BBA is dead and white. I use a "dosing syringe" from the drug store for dosing. I do not dose more than a total 2.0 ml per gallon (water volume, not tank volume) per treatment and I only dose once a day. I turn the filter back on once the bubbling has stopped.
> 
> I have Cardinals, Rasboras, Otos, Corys, and SAE in the tank with no ill effects. Plants have been unaffected by the treatment and vary from hardy to very sensitive. Plants include two types of Java Fern, L. aromatica, H. 'Sunset', Ceratopteris, Cabomba, M. minuta, Ludwigia, Crypts, and Syngonanthus 'Belem'. Hope this helps!


brand new bottle of 3% and it certainly was good enough to almost completely kill a healthy bolbitis, but no, the BBA on the plant was still doing great.
As of now the stuff is still all over my spray bar and driftwood, some of the anubias has a patch or two at the leaf edges, but the rest of the plants (vals and the bolbitis that survived) are doing fine.

I'd really rather not pull all the vals to dose excel. There are a lot of them, and I don't want to exacerbate the problem by dissolving the root tabs that are under them into the water.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

jschall said:


> Alright, so I turned off my lights and filters, took a syringe of hydrogen peroxide, applied it directly to a patch of BBA. Very few, if any, bubbles. Applied more to some on the driftwood. The driftwood fizzed like nuts, but the algae itself didn't.
> So, I went out and bought new hydrogen peroxide, expiration 11/13. Same thing, more but not a lot of bubbling.
> I took a container, filled it with slightly warm water, dumped most of the new bottle of h2o2 in (this is a 32oz bottle, I probably dumped 20oz of h2o2 in there), put in my bba-infested bolbitis and left it for 2 minutes.
> 
> It's been a couple days since I did that. I've continued to turn off the filters and lights and apply h2o2 with a syringe every night. The BBA has a tiny bit of a whitish sickly look to it now, but it's still VERY strong and will not come off.


It seemed strange to me that I am experiencing excellent results using 3% (stabilized) Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) on BBA (and BGA) and you are not. It has been two weeks since I started treatment and my tank looks almost pristine except for dead BBA tufts here and there. From your posts the only thing I can tell that you are doing differently than me is I have the the lights are on when I am dosing and I am turning my filter off to minimize water movement and maintain Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) contact as long as possible. In addition, I noticed the the reaction between the H2O2 and the algae is much less intense in the shaded, darker corners and areas of my aquarium. I was wondering if possibly the reaction between the H2O2 and the BBA increases with the chlorophyll level which would be greater in plants that are in the light?

From what I have read, H2O2 is a very strong oxidizing agent and bleaching agent. Further reading found that when leaves that were exposed to an oxidizing agent were illuminated, chlorophyll a and carotenoids were broken down; while chlorophyll a and carotenoids were not destroyed in darkness.

Why not try an experiment? Try dosing some of the BBA in a brightly lit area (not necessarily on leaves) after the lights have been on for a while and a darker area of the tank and see if the results are different?


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## Philosophos

Erythromycin will absolutely destroy BGA. I've done it, and it works well. 500mg in 50 gal, or spot treat the stuff as needed for emersed growth. 1-7 days depending on the severity and BGA is gone.

If you've got a sparsely planted tank, you may want to pull your filter sponge while using the stuff. Sparse tanks tend to lack the plant mass to replace the usual nitrogen cycle related bacteria. I'm not sure about the spectrum of erythromycin in regards to those bacteria, so unless you feel like testing you're better off safe than sorry. Be sure to pull a couple heavy water changes before putting the media back in.

Beyond that, BGA's equilibrium is very heavily based around two things that can be controlled easily; NH4 and low oxygen. Decrease decaying matter, increase oxygen, and it shouldn't come back.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Dan,

I actually set out to deal with a BGA problem. I tried Maracyn (erythromycin) and I went through two packages treating the BGA for about 7 days. It slowed down during treatment, but never died. The BGA came roaring back as soon as the antibiotic treatment was done. I read that there are some strains of BGA that are becoming resistant to antibiotics.

That is when I did some research online concerning cyanobacteria (BGA) and and found that H2O2 is used in water treatment for the BGA. I was concerned about the dosage but did not have any problems with 2.0 ml per gallon with 3% H2O2. Not only did the H2O2 wipe out the BGA but when dosed directly onto the BBA as I described above it killed it too.


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## Philosophos

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I actually set out to deal with a BGA problem. I tried Maracyn (erythromycin) and I went through two packages treating the BGA for about 7 days. It slowed down during treatment, but never died. The BGA came roaring back as soon as the antibiotic treatment was done. I read that there are some strains of BGA that are becoming resistant to antibiotics.


I probably should've added that I spot treat with things like antibiotics and excel. Next time try dissolving the erythromyacin in a cup full of water, then turn off the filters and spot treat with a disposable pipette or syringe. Leave things to settle in for a half hour, and then turn everything back on.

Antibiotic resistant everything seems to exist now. There's definitely times when only really voracious antibiotics will do the job. As I'm sure you know, those antibiotics don't get prescribed when you try to explain that it's for your plants. Perhaps one day we'll have bacteriophages available as a treatment method in aquaria.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> That is when I did some research online concerning cyanobacteria (BGA) and and found that H2O2 is used in water treatment for the BGA. I was concerned about the dosage but did not have any problems with 2.0 ml per gallon with 3% H2O2. Not only did the H2O2 wipe out the BGA but when dosed directly onto the BBA as I described above it killed it too.


If H2O2 is effective then great; I've seen it mostly have hit and miss results with the occasional disaster. Even so, it's a pure, simple compound in its action so I've always been drawn to using it. The kind of tanks I keep don't lend themselves to BGA when they're imbalanced, so it doesn't show up very often. Next time it does though, I'll give H2O2 a try. At the same time I'll do an informal test to check if spot treating increases its effectiveness much.


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## f1ea

Philosophos said:


> If H2O2 is effective then great; I've seen it mostly have hit and miss results with the occasional disaster. Even so, it's a pure, simple compound in its action so I've always been drawn to using it. The kind of tanks I keep don't lend themselves to BGA when they're imbalanced, so it doesn't show up very often. Next time it does though, I'll give H2O2 a try. At the same time I'll do an informal test to check if spot treating increases its effectiveness much.


H2O2 is very effective killing algae (and just about everything alive), its just a matter of concentration and exposure time. It also seems that organisms are not able to develop a 'tolerance' for it (as opposed to antibiotics). Very cheap, and easily accesible. BGA is easily killed by H2O2.

I did a 3 day treatment on a 200 Gal about to be taken over by BGA... in less than a week it was all gone. I figured the best way to do a treatment following this discussion and calculations about dosage and exposure times:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/3018-h2o2-algae-remover-6.html

Also, in page 5 of that same thread ^^ there is a link to a very good background/theory about how it works and what goes on upon H2O2 use.

EDIT: by the way, this is the treatment i came up with:
Day 1: BGA syphon with an airline hose (up to about 15% Water volume) >>> then 100ml of 6% H2O2
Day 2: Same as day 1 (syphon dead BGA and some of the remaining)
Day 3: Same as day 2
Day 4: BGA syphon (up to about 15% water volume) >>> then KNO3 dosing to a tank NO3 of 15-20 ppm
Day 7: BGA syphon (up to about 30% water volume). Kept the KNO3 dosing since. And reduced the water changes... (i have an El Natural tank, sort of).

It worked PERFECTLY, not a single fish/plant distressed... I'm sure it works for other algae (perhaps a different concentration)


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## jschall

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> It seemed strange to me that I am experiencing excellent results using 3% (stabilized) Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) on BBA (and BGA) and you are not. It has been two weeks since I started treatment and my tank looks almost pristine except for dead BBA tufts here and there. From your posts the only thing I can tell that you are doing differently than me is I have the the lights are on when I am dosing and I am turning my filter off to minimize water movement and maintain Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) contact as long as possible. In addition, I noticed the the reaction between the H2O2 and the algae is much less intense in the shaded, darker corners and areas of my aquarium. I was wondering if possibly the reaction between the H2O2 and the BBA increases with the chlorophyll level which would be greater in plants that are in the light?
> 
> From what I have read, H2O2 is a very strong oxidizing agent and bleaching agent. Further reading found that when leaves that were exposed to an oxidizing agent were illuminated, chlorophyll a and carotenoids were broken down; while chlorophyll a and carotenoids were not destroyed in darkness.
> 
> Why not try an experiment? Try dosing some of the BBA in a brightly lit area (not necessarily on leaves) after the lights have been on for a while and a darker area of the tank and see if the results are different?


I've tried with and without the lights on, but they aren't very bright lights. I also turn my filter off.

I'm certainly never using h2o2 on bolbitis again.


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## Philosophos

f1ea said:


> H2O2 is very effective killing algae (and just about everything alive), its just a matter of concentration and exposure time. It also seems that organisms are not able to develop a 'tolerance' for it (as opposed to antibiotics). Very cheap, and easily accesible. BGA is easily killed by H2O2.
> 
> I did a 3 day treatment on a 200 Gal about to be taken over by BGA... in less than a week it was all gone. I figured the best way to do a treatment following this discussion and calculations about dosage and exposure times:
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/3018-h2o2-algae-remover-6.html
> 
> Also, in page 5 of that same thread ^^ there is a link to a very good background/theory about how it works and what goes on upon H2O2 use.
> 
> EDIT: by the way, this is the treatment i came up with:
> Day 1: BGA syphon with an airline hose (up to about 15% Water volume) >>> then 100ml of 6% H2O2
> Day 2: Same as day 1 (syphon dead BGA and some of the remaining)
> Day 3: Same as day 2
> Day 4: BGA syphon (up to about 15% water volume) >>> then KNO3 dosing to a tank NO3 of 15-20 ppm
> Day 7: BGA syphon (up to about 30% water volume). Kept the KNO3 dosing since. And reduced the water changes... (i have an El Natural tank, sort of).
> 
> It worked PERFECTLY, not a single fish/plant distressed... I'm sure it works for other algae (perhaps a different concentration)


It's not the success stories that concern me 

I've seen H2O2 used a number of times, and I've also seen it kill a great deal of fish. Sometimes people even use the same ppms and end up with different results because of slight variations in method.

Getting the stuff food grade isn't my idea of fun given how easily its neutralized. I wonder if there's some other oxidizing compound that would do the job just as well; many of the others double as nutrients quite nicely.


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## f1ea

Philosophos said:


> It's not the success stories that concern me
> 
> I've seen H2O2 used a number of times, and I've also seen it kill a great deal of fish. Sometimes people even use the same ppms and end up with different results because of slight variations in method.
> 
> Getting the stuff food grade isn't my idea of fun given how easily its neutralized. I wonder if there's some other oxidizing compound that would do the job just as well; many of the others double as nutrients quite nicely.


Ah of course, there's always the chance that something goes wrong. 
More often than not, its the case of not having the complete picture about what's happening in the tank. In one of the links i referred to, there's a toxicology table to different species, an explanation to the redox changes and a calculator to get concentration.

This is not the full picture, but i'm sure most people have problems with either: decreasing oxygen levels as algae dies, pH change, overdosing...

Also, i'm sure there's other (oxidizers) but not as easily accesible or cheap as H2o2. Although i think excel is definitely more lethal (and more dangerous to overdose) than H2O2; for example I have 3 Vallisneria sp. in my tank and many snails... none of them suffered from the H2O2 treatment above. And my treatment cost US$ 2.50 for a 200 Gal. That's basically free. So, lets say you'd like an agent with some extra nutrients... even then it wouldnt be cheaper and simpler than H2O2 and just keeping your regular fert regime.

Anyway; not the end all solution, but works in the meantime... Until Tom comes out with something better hehe


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## jschall

I pulled all the vals. I think they were just sucking up nitrogen. I was up to dosing 1/2tsp kno3 every day (about twice as much as EI) and still getting cyanobacteria.
Now I can dose excel to kill remaining BBA.

The tank looks amazingly bland without them.


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## Philosophos

Phosphoric acid is actually pretty cheap stuff; You can buy a 500ml bottle of 85% for $20 plus shipping. That one bottle would be like having 19 liters of hydrogen peroxide as far as oxidation potential goes. It would also provide about 694g worth of pure PO4, which to buy in the form of KH2PO4 would cost about $8-$10 to deliver to your door with shipping from an online store. Maybe knock off $2 for the potassium KH2PO4 provides.

jschall, rather than doing vals why not try out something like Sagitaria subulata? It's easy, fast growing and it looks similar.


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## f1ea

Philosophos said:


> Phosphoric acid is actually pretty cheap stuff; You can buy a 500ml bottle of 85% for $20 plus shipping. That one bottle would be like having 19 liters of hydrogen peroxide as far as oxidation potential goes. It would also provide about 694g worth of pure PO4, which to buy in the form of KH2PO4 would cost about $8-$10 to deliver to your door with shipping from an online store. Maybe knock off $2 for the potassium KH2PO4 provides.
> 
> jschall, rather than doing vals why not try out something like Sagitaria subulata? It's easy, fast growing and it looks similar.


Yes, that's very good (phosphoric acid). But like i said, H2O2 is pretty much a household item, its still free and y ou pretty much have no thinking (no adjusting) your dosing or spending neurons adjusting your varying po4 dosage. Its not bad, but its not as simple and straightforward as H2O2.

Also, do you have an MSDS or some kind of toxicology report on phosphoric acid? 
(this is not an ironc question, its a real question: do you have by any chance some toxicology data on it?)


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## Philosophos

H2O2 around here all has stabilizers in it, which means any number of compounds left unlisted on the bottle. I really don't like dosing something that's not even food grade to begin with, and then playing chemical roulette as well.

Phosphoric (and nitric for that matter) acid is what you'll see people over on thekrib.com's apisto breeding archives; it's an method used to induce spawns or create egg viability. There are logs of dropping pH down to 4.5-5.5 with both of these compounds, sometimes from tap with middling alkalinity. For toxicology studies, the best resource ever available that I know of would be the EPA ECOTOX database. You won't usually find the exact species that you want, because nobody's paid to have the research done (no money in it), but you can usually get a general comparison to use as a guideline. For fauna, use warm water fish as a reference; a lot of cold water stuff is obscenely sensitive, even to the point where 5ppm of NO3 from ferts messes them up.

To be very honest though, you won't find any surprises with either of those acids. The ferts you dose disassociate into things like straight NO3, PO4 and Cl anyhow. All you're doing different with HNO3, H3PO4 and HCl is adding some extra hydrogen ions. Because of this, your toxicity reports would be the essential toxicity to inorganic NO3/PO4/Cl with acidosis added on as a concern. In every case, you're going to have dead fish from the acidosis before the inorganic nutrients.


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## f1ea

Thanks for the info.

Something that confuses me:


> All you're doing different with HNO3, H3PO4 and HCl is adding some extra hydrogen ions. Because of this, your toxicity reports would be the essential toxicity to inorganic NO3/PO4/Cl with acidosis added on as a concern. In every case, you're going to have dead fish from the acidosis before the inorganic nutrients.


If phosphoric acid is as toxic as inorganic PO4... how does it kill algae?? I mean, adding the extra hydrogen ions simply decreases pH, if it loses these ions and then stay as NO3 or PO4; where is the oxidation to kill algae happening?


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## Philosophos

Interesting isn't it?

H2O2 is just H2O with an extra O on the end for that matter. It's all just oxidization in one form or another.

If you check out the H2O2 page on thekrib you'll find Roger Miller saying he's figuring it's pure oxidization.

Algae must have a higher sensitivity to ORP changes. This sensitivity makes sense if you think of the structure, or perhaps the lack thereof. Algae is just piles or strings of cells undergoing osmosis in direct contact with the column; they can out-compete plants in the column because of their high proportion of surface area to mass. At the same time, Ever notice that it's the non-vacular bryophytes that tend to have the same sensitivities as algae? I'm guessing it's the lack of lignin that makes them so susceptible.

Just throwing things out there. I can't give you any good studies for this one, just a best guess.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi -Dan,

Great link to an excellent website and thread! The Krib was one of the earliest aquarium / planted tank websites and is still an excellent information resource.


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## f1ea

Philosophos said:


> Interesting isn't it?
> 
> H2O2 is just H2O with an extra O on the end for that matter. It's all just oxidization in one form or another.
> 
> If you check out the H2O2 page on thekrib you'll find Roger Miller saying he's figuring it's pure oxidization.
> 
> Algae must have a higher sensitivity to ORP changes. This sensitivity makes sense if you think of the structure, or perhaps the lack thereof. Algae is just piles or strings of cells undergoing osmosis in direct contact with the column; they can out-compete plants in the column because of their high proportion of surface area to mass. At the same time, Ever notice that it's the non-vacular bryophytes that tend to have the same sensitivities as algae? I'm guessing it's the lack of lignin that makes them so susceptible.
> 
> Just throwing things out there. I can't give you any good studies for this one, just a best guess.


Good info and results there on the Krib. More or less consistent with what I have seen (except perhaps I am using lower doses for longer exposure times). As i see the H2O2 reaction, it still seems more "oxidative" than the other phosphates/nitrates etc based oxidizers you mentioned... H2O2 breaks readily into H2O + O2, which means the O2 is free to oxidize (some of this O2 even binds to other free H2 in water and thus increases pH); while for example the H2PO4 reaction will simply free H ions (increasing the H2 and reducing pH) but then it maintains a more stable PO4... That's where I dont see/understand the oxidation capabilities of these substances as compared to H2O2.

Of course, the big complaint or downside to any treatment is the effect on the smaller lifeforms necessary to keep an aquarium running healthily... in heavy planted tanks, perhaps the biofilter/nitrifying bacteria is not so "desperately" needed; but the millions of other microorganisms we still have very little understanding about, could be dealt a heavy blow.

Unfortunately, there is little understanding of this microbiotic ecosystem... we know its there, we know it probably helps to have healthy bacteria colonies (ie other than nitrifying); but how does it work, what does it do, how can we take care of it, encourage it etc... Perhaps this is the next step in aquarium understanding?

Cheers, and thanks for the responses


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## Philosophos

f1ea said:


> Good info and results there on the Krib. More or less consistent with what I have seen (except perhaps I am using lower doses for longer exposure times). As i see the H2O2 reaction, it still seems more "oxidative" than the other phosphates/nitrates etc based oxidizers you mentioned... H2O2 breaks readily into H2O + O2, which means the O2 is free to oxidize (some of this O2 even binds to other free H2 in water and thus increases pH); while for example the H2PO4 reaction will simply free H ions (increasing the H2 and reducing pH) but then it maintains a more stable PO4... That's where I dont see/understand the oxidation capabilities of these substances as compared to H2O2.


You've got your chemistry a little backwards with PO4. HPO4 has a charge of -2, PO4 has a charge of -3. H2O2 caries -2. Both oxidize. The H2O2 ends up being ~2x more acidic by weight, but HPO4 is far cheaper to ship by purity. Either way, 4ppm of HPO4 is less PO4 than what many of us dose per week into a high light tank.



f1ea said:


> Of course, the big complaint or downside to any treatment is the effect on the smaller lifeforms necessary to keep an aquarium running healthily... in heavy planted tanks, perhaps the biofilter/nitrifying bacteria is not so "desperately" needed; but the millions of other microorganisms we still have very little understanding about, could be dealt a heavy blow.


Unfortunately, there is little understanding of this microbiotic ecosystem... we know its there, we know it probably helps to have healthy bacteria colonies (ie other than nitrifying); but how does it work, what does it do, how can we take care of it, encourage it etc... Perhaps this is the next step in aquarium understanding? [/QUOTE]

I agree completely. it's an area not many people pay attention to. The nitrogen cycle isn't even understood as not applying to planted aquaria on the part of most aquarium hobbyists who aren't doing it. I think it's all a pretty stable system looking at how many methods people use, and how rapidly we alter our aquariums at times. IMO it's a topic we'll be looking into for a long time, and I think it should be done with some proper research and testing. The typical hobbyist version of, "I dumped this in my tank and got a certain reaction" without having controls or standard methods tends to damage the hobby as much as it helps.

Perhaps some of the biologically inclined could head out in that direction and start a project. I'm definitely not so great at aquatic microbiology. On the other hand, Diana Walstad has a very big interest in that end of things, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's her work that uncovers a fair bit on the topic.


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## f1ea

Philosophos said:


> You've got your chemistry a little backwards with PO4. HPO4 has a charge of -2, PO4 has a charge of -3. H2O2 caries -2. Both oxidize. The H2O2 ends up being ~2x more acidic by weight, but HPO4 is far cheaper to ship by purity. Either way, 4ppm of HPO4 is less PO4 than what many of us dose per week into a high light tank.


:retard: Of course; the PO4 radical can't be more stable than the acid
Good, i finally understand what you have been saying


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## Philosophos

It's not so much an issue of the hydrogen, but a matter of the oxygen. Rather than simply dealing with how much hydrogen is tossed around, it's an issue of total electron transfer. You can have a violent chemical reaction involving H2S -> H2SO4 that really isn't so much about the H+ as it is about the SO4.

This is the change in the hobby from looking at pH to looking at ORP. When you get down to it, the concern is about equilibrium within the environment as a matter of ions than it is about about just the part of it that is hydrogen.


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## barbarossa4122

Hi,

I am on my second day treatment with h2o2 (2ml/g), the bba it's turning pink and most of it is almost gone but, I got a little ammonia spike (0.15). I also used Metricide 14 for the last 6 months. I should also mention that yesterday I did a 70% wc and change all the mechanical media in my filters. Goldies and plants are OK. Should I do a small wc or leave it like this until my next weekly wc ? These are 1.5 years old well established tanks. All the other water parameters are OK.

edit
Sorry, I also changed the bio media (Eheim Substrat Pro). I am just wondering if h2o2 can affect the healthy bacteria.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

There is no need to do an extra water change because of the use of H2O2 because it "breaks down" into H20 (water). However with the nitrate spike, which was probably caused by removing the old filter media and replacing it with new media, a water change certainly wouldn't hurt.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> There is no need to do an extra water change because of the use of H2O2 because it "breaks down" into H20 (water). However with the nitrate spike, which was probably caused by removing the old filter media and replacing it with new media, a water change certainly wouldn't hurt.


Hello Seattle_Aquarist,

Thanks for the advice. I will do a wc today. Thanks God for the python.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> There is no need to do an extra water change because of the use of H2O2 because it "breaks down" into H20 (water). However with the nitrate spike, which was probably caused by removing the old filter media and replacing it with new media, a water change certainly wouldn't hurt.


Hi again,

As I wrote before, I did a 2 day h2o2 treatment (2ml/g), the algae it's almost gone. Should I do one more treatment tomorrow to finish the peroxide bottle or it will be too much?

Oh, I just finished the wcs (50%) in both my tanks and I'll check the ammonia levels tomorrow.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

It sounds like you are making real progress but I would go ahead and treat again; my BBA typically turns almost red before it dies.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> It sounds like you are making real progress but I would go ahead and treat again; my BBA typically turns almost red before it dies.


Hi,

Yep, it turned red and I removed as much as I could. I also use Metricide 14 100% double dose for about a week now and fish and plants are doing OK. Just ordered another gallon for $26.99, shipping included.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

Be careful dosing with MetriCide because it is about 75% stronger than Excel; MetriCide is 2.6% Glutaraldehyde whereas Excel is 1.5% Glutaraldehyde.

I buy 1 liter bottles of 50% Biological Grade Glutaraldecide and mix up my own 1.5% solution. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter or about $6.30 per gallon for Excel strength.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> Be careful dosing with MetriCide because it is about 75% stronger than Excel; MetriCide is 2.6% Glutaraldehyde whereas Excel is 1.5% Glutaraldehyde.
> 
> I buy 1 liter bottles of 50% Biological Grade Glutaraldecide and mix up my own 1.5% solution. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter or about $6.30 per gallon for Excel strength.


Seattle_Aquarist,

I used to mix the Metricide to Excel strenght until about a week ago. Now I just dose less. Btw, where do you get the 50% Biological Grade Glutaraldecide ?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi

Post 114 page 12 and Post 147 page 15 has the information I think you are seeking! http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/south-western-ohio-aquatic-plant-enthusiasts/31615-glutaraldehyde-instead-excel-12.html


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## barbarossa4122

I found this site and they sell the 50% 1L for $23.00 without shipping. Does this sound right?
http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/chemicals/glutaraldehyde.aspx


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi
> 
> Post 114 page 12 and Post 147 page 15 has the information I think you are seeking! http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/south-western-ohio-aquatic-plant-enthusiasts/31615-glutaraldehyde-instead-excel-12.html


Hi,

This is the same site I just found. The hazmat is more then the glutaraldehyde but, it's well worth it. Thanks for your help


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

The HazMat charge UPS charges almost costs a much as the product, but it still is the least expensive way I have found to dose Glut. I store the 1 liter bottle in a cool dark area and mix up a 500 ml bottle about every 8 weeks.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> The HazMat charge UPS charges almost costs a much as the product, but it still is the least expensive way I have found to dose Glut. I store the 1 liter bottle in a cool dark area and mix up a 500 ml bottle about every 8 weeks.


Hi,

Yep, I'll get it as soon as I finish my MetriCide. I'll use the peroxide bottle to mix it and store it. 15ml of 50% Glutaraldehyde in 485ml of water if my math is correct and I am getting Excel strength.


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## taniner

I've had a HUGE problem with BBA a few weeks ago and I think I've finally beat it!  Let me know your entire detail of your tank...

What is the percentage of your tank is planted?

How long has your tank been cycled?

Are you running compressed CO2? What is your bubble rate set at?

How much and how often do you do water changes?

Do you have shrimps and or fish?


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## jschall

taniner said:


> I've had a HUGE problem with BBA a few weeks ago and I think I've finally beat it!  Let me know your entire detail of your tank...
> 
> What is the percentage of your tank is planted?
> 
> How long has your tank been cycled?
> 
> Are you running compressed CO2? What is your bubble rate set at?
> 
> How much and how often do you do water changes?
> 
> Do you have shrimps and or fish?


BBA is no longer an issue for me. Cyano quickly became a much larger issue, and I eliminated it by changing my fluorescent tubes.


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## albirdy

I was always under the impression that BBA, black beard algae, came from fluctuations in co2. At least that was the case as I was fiddling with my pressurized system. After stabilizing my system, manual removal of leaves of tufts of algal spread helped abate the spreading and proved to help end it completely.

When I used to have a low-tech set-up with no co2. (actually, in hindsight, I did dabble with DIY co2 here and there, perhaps this caused it too), but the battle was difficult. There was waiting--but I cannot take that laissez-faire approach. What I did was add a couple of black mollies and didn't feed them. They did a really good job of eating away at the tufts--especially the slower growing plants like anubias and the surrounding driftwood.

Regardless, good luck to you.


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## albirdy

Sorry, I read the first page, but not this second one. 

Congratulations on doing away with the BBA. As for Cyanobacteria... there's an excellent thread that was posted recently. One of the moderators --Seattle-- and a Senior member Newt did a good job in providing a seemingly sure-fire way of doing away with the ubiquitous bacteria.

again, bon chance


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi nilocg,

Remember, I got my best results with H2O2 when my plants (and BGA) were at *maximum photosynthesis*, about two hours after the lights came on. I shut the pumps/filter off so there is minimum water movement. I dose 1.5 ml per gallon of the 3% Stabilized Hydrogen Peroxide. Shooting it onto the worst areas with a "Dosing Syringe" from the drug store (where I bought the H2O2) was the most effective. After about 20 minutes I turned on my filters and pumps. I only dosed once per 24 hour period.

I am interested in your results.


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi nilocg,
> 
> Remember, I got my best results with H2O2 when my plants (and BGA) were at *maximum photosynthesis*, about two hours after the lights came on. I shut the pumps/filter off so there is minimum water movement. I dose 1.5 ml per gallon of the 3% Stabilized Hydrogen Peroxide. Shooting it onto the worst areas with a "Dosing Syringe" from the drug store (where I bought the H2O2) was the most effective. After about 20 minutes I turned on my filters and pumps. I only dosed once per 24 hour period.
> 
> I am interested in your results.


Hi,

I dosed about 3ml/gallon for 3 days plus double doses of Metricide/Excel. It worked and I only lost the Hornwort. Also did full tank and spot treatment.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi barbarossa4122,

Good to get the positive feedback! Yes, I had problems with Hornwort when dosing Excel/Glut....it does make a mess!

Once I got rid of the BBA, I found that by keeping my filter and tank clear of debris and mulm, keeping my CO2 level up, along with regular water changes and fert dosing has kept it from coming back.

Believe me, if I see it trying to get a start that I treat it right way!


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## barbarossa4122

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi barbarossa4122,
> 
> Good to get the positive feedback! Yes, I had problems with Hornwort when dosing Excel/Glut....it does make a mess!
> 
> Once I got rid of the BBA, I found that by keeping my filter and tank clear of debris and mulm, keeping my CO2 level up, along with regular water changes and fert dosing has kept it from coming back.
> 
> Believe me, if I see it trying to get a start that I treat it right way!


Hi,

Next time I'll move the Hornwort to a quarantine tank , but I hope is not going to be a next time. I had too much light and I had to raise the fixtures 12" above the tanks. I am planning on getting 2 co2 complete systems from GLA this XMAS. Tomorrow I'll installed my 2 new Rena canisters and I am done with filtration for a while (one Rena and one Emperor 400 for each tank). Btw, I also keep a close eye on the algae


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