# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Please Help! Fluorescent vs. PC lighting...



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

I need lighting for a 60" x 18", 100 gal tank which is not set up yet. I have read a lot about lighting but it is just getting me more confused all the time. I want to grow plants but don't want to mess with CO2 injection.

My questions are:
1) What's the difference fluorescent vs. PC fluorescent?
2) How much total wattage should I shoot for?
3) How many bulbs total? (1 or 2 deep...)
4) What's the deal with all the 8000oK etc numbers?
5) Electronic ballast is best? If so, how do you find such a light?

Please keep it simple as I am not electrically inclined.


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

I need lighting for a 60" x 18", 100 gal tank which is not set up yet. I have read a lot about lighting but it is just getting me more confused all the time. I want to grow plants but don't want to mess with CO2 injection.

My questions are:
1) What's the difference fluorescent vs. PC fluorescent?
2) How much total wattage should I shoot for?
3) How many bulbs total? (1 or 2 deep...)
4) What's the deal with all the 8000oK etc numbers?
5) Electronic ballast is best? If so, how do you find such a light?

Please keep it simple as I am not electrically inclined.


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

PC bulbs suppose to have 1 year life span before spectrum goes down.

fluorescent only have 1/2 year before spectrum goes down.
Not sure if the '1/2 year guideline' have change since I used it.

2-3wpg should be plenty.
you may need co2 injection at 3wpg.

# of Bulbs varies depending on the PC vs fluorescent and wattage per bulb you use.

5k-6.5k. not a lot of use for anything higher.

ahsupply retrofit kits are probably one of the better kit in the market.

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website

[This message was edited by EDGE on Sun March 09 2003 at 11:16 AM.]


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Heady:
> I need lighting for a 60" x 18", 100 gal tank which is not set up yet. I have read a lot about lighting but it is just getting me more confused all the time. I want to grow plants but don't want to mess with CO2 injection.


Well, good luck with the no CO2 thing. I don't think there are very many people who actually want the results that they can get without injecting CO2.



> quote:
> 
> 1) What's the difference fluorescent vs. PC fluorescent?


PCs are smaller in diameter, come in different sizes, use different ballasts. Good reflectors can be used more easily with PCs than with standard fluorescents. All in all, PCs are better.



> quote:
> 
> 2) How much total wattage should I shoot for?


With CO2 and PC lights with good reflectors, probably 200-250 watts on that tank. A little more with standard fluorescents. Without CO2, then probably 150 to 200 watts.



> quote:
> 
> 3) How many bulbs total? (1 or 2 deep...)


That depends on which lights you chose. You want to use an arrangement that will get you a good distribution of light and that often means more bulbs rather than less. You have more options and better options with PCs than with standard fluorescents.



> quote:
> 
> 4) What's the deal with all the 8000oK etc numbers?


The two numbers to watch for are CRI and K (kelvin).

CRI is given in percent and it is a measure of how well the light lets you perceive colors. I think that after wattage and physical dimensions that CRI is the most important stat on a light. Look for lights with CRI over 90. Standard cool white lights have a CRI near 60, if I remember right.

K is given in degrees and it is supposed to measure color. K isn't always a good measure of color, but that is how it's supposed to work. Direct, unfiltered sunlight is about 5000 K. Lights with higher K values are usually more blue and lights with lower K values are usually more orange. I prefer lights that are near 5000K, but some people prefer higher values. Lights sold for home or office lighting usually have low K values -- 3400 or so.



> quote:
> 
> 5) Electronic ballast is best? If so, how do you find such a light?


Different ballasts work with different lights. Pick out the light you want to use and get the ballast to match. Electronic ballasts are more efficient. The ballast and the lights are usually packaged together for aquarium applications. Unless you actually want to build completely from scratch you should probably get them that way.

Roger Miller


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

Okay...

My tank measures 60" x 18" x 20" tall. I am thinking about getting 2 Coralife 48" dual fluorescent tube sets and staggering them 3" from each end to get the most coverage I can.

http://www.petsmart.com/fish/shopping/lighting/products/product_695.shtml

($188 after 20% off coupon, not incl. bulbs)

I currently have 1 set like this on my 55 gal tank which measures 48" x 13" x 18" tall. It seems fairly bright but not glaring. I'm not sure if I will get the same brightness on the 100 gal using 2 sets of this same light or not.

I am not against getting CF but I don't get along well with electricity.







I'd like to get something that's preassembled and ready to install into a canopy... plug and play. Anything more than that might be dangerous for me.







Do they sell CFs as a completely assembled reflector/ballast retro set? I haven't been able to find one for less than $500 or so. This is probably irrelevant if the higher amount of lighting will cause algae blooms...

[This message was edited by Heady on Sun March 09 2003 at 02:09 PM.]


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

an important thing is flourescent doesn't penetrate very well. even if you put 50 watts of flourescent next to 50 watts of PC, the PC wins by a land slide. i got some PC lights on my tank to up the lighting and now i'm throwing away all my flourescent lights, they seem so DIM!! with 20" deep, i don't know how well flourescent is going to get to the bottom. there ARE premade PC lights (jbj lighting) although i'm not sure if they will fit your tank. honestly i had a hard time growing stuff until i threw some PC bulbs on. i only have 2wpg with PC, but good reflectors and i'm having no problem growing plants. everything is coming in much greener. you know what else you can try... i walked into my LFS was putting some VHO lights in a canopy for a customer (for a fee) yours may do the same, OR just go find some nerdy kid in the neighborhood (like me) pay him 40 bucks and a few cokes to put the whole thing together! child labor is perfect for stuff like that. heck, i'll put it together if you want to pay the shipping! i want to see how blinding that sorta light is, i felt like i could fake bake under my 110 watts! (no you can't fake bake, not enough UV in the lights). it's not like we want you to spend all your money or something (evil grin) but i (and most of the people here) tried to do the lowest, the absolute minimum, and we always end up replacing it for better stuff because we're just not happy with the outcome, and we always end up asking ourselves "what were we thinking?" i mean, i was trying to grow plants in plain round gravel, no ferts, once a month water changes, and about 1 watt per gallon with flourescent lighting and no reflectors on a 50 gallon tank. and for some reason, i couldn't figure out why my plants just weren't growing! since you have a larger tank, i would aim for roughly 2wpg, not 3, of lighting. i think you'd be alright with 4 55 watt PC fixtures (someone please verify my guesstimates) for pretty decent growth, but not overkill. the ahsupply place is actually quite good, and very cheaply priced, and if you are really THAT scared to mess with the wiring, then seriously grab some kid to do it for a little bit. it'll still probably come out to be cheaper than some prebuilt, and i think that you will be MUCH happier with your tank and plants. honestly though, the wiring is really easy, i only needed 3 tools (screw driver, drill, wire cutters) and if you do it yourself, you can put the lights exactly where you want them. i'd also be happy to take detailed pictures of my wiring job, in fact... i have a set coming in tomorrow or tuesday for my new tank, i'd be willing to document (with some nice pictures) the installation process for you. if i do that, maybe i'll send the directions to AH supply because i didn't like their directions too much, but they worked at least. anyway, sleep on it







good deeds are my middle name! actually it's peter, that's where i get JP... but whatever.

JP


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

Heady could also go with 2 96 watt if you want to keep it closer to 1.5 wpg.

would be easier to mount on the hood as well since they are 30 inch long

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Heady, you could throw in some shop lights with NO flourecent bulbs, as your tank is not very high. They come all together and are pretty cheap!


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

The biggest problem is going to be the 5' tank length. Shop lights are 4'. Most standard light fixtures are going to be 4'. Your best choice is going to be www.ahsupply.com and get a couple of 96 watt kits and stagger them. That will put you just under 2 wpg which will grow most plants. If you just follow their directions you will be able to mount them in the canopy with no problem. I can assure you that with the AH Supply kits you will get more usable light in the tank than you will with the Coralife outfits.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

Here is a good question.

Where can I get some reflectors for those NO retrofit kit? glo-mat kit...
in Canada? or online..

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

Ummm... I guess CFs seem the way to go, but...

2-96W CFs or 4-55W CFs? 
... 192 watts or 220 watts?


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I think you would get better coverage with the 2x96 watt.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

it could go either way, but i'm inclined to agree with rex for one simple reason... since you hate wiring and stuff, the 2x96 will probably be easier to wire than the 4x55. the 4x actually isn't tough at all, but i'm sure you'd rather plug 2 in instead of 4. if you order from ahsupply let me know if you need help. my lights came in and i'm poised to finish my canopy pretty soon, so i'll be setting mine up soon as well.

JP


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

jpm, do you have a digi cam you can use to pictures of your building and mounting process?

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

absolutely, i'm finishing my canopy today (the woodworking) so next i need to make it black. after that, i'm mounting everything up and away i go! it'll be a 2x55 watt setup, but i think that will probably be a reasonable place to start for people learning how to wire in their own PC lights... does anyone else want me to make a little "how-to?" perhaps i can just send it to robert to keep on AB so people can look whenever they want.

JP

PS i'm sorry i didn't take pictures of building my canopy... but i think if someone can't put one together, perhaps they shouldn't be near a table saw (i don't want anyone chopping fingers off) if someone just wants to see how i DESIGNED it i'm sure i can still take a few pictures that will give you a good idea, but i don't think there is any point of me documenting the building of the canopy... just the lights will be good enough


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

bleh.. not everyone have access to a table saw. closest thing I have is a miter saw :\

a picture of the design would be great. 
picture of the inside, outside, and the joints.

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

sure thing. it's nothing spectacular, but i'm hoping it looks pretty decent when i'm done. i bought a 4'x8' sheet of oak plywood at home depot for about 35 bucks, some hinges for a few bucks a piece, and now i need paint or lacquer or something. so relatively cheap, AND i didn't even use 1/2 of the wood, i have a ton left so i COULD make another one i suppose. it's a cheap hood, but should be functional. this will only work on ones that will be painted black because i have plenty of exposed edges (yuck) but it should look decent if it's just painted black. if you want to stain the wood, you'll need some real wood to use as trim, but all in all, it was fairly cheap and easy to make. i would have purchased one from AH supply, but they don't make any for 18" or 24" tanks, only 12, so i decided to make one and i threw in a hinged top while i was at it so i didn't need to remove the thing every time i wanted to stick my hand in the water. i'm just about done glueing now so i'll take pictures before i paint it so you can see the joints better, then i'll take pictures after i paint it so you can see the final project. after that i'll start working on the wiring and lighting. man i really hope this doesn't suck when i'm done









JP


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

I was thinking of nailing the thing together.

what type of glue did you use? did you used any clamps to hold it in place?

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

Jptorotoro, I would be interested in seeing your design for the canopy as well as pics/info on how to wire the system. If you post it here, lots and lots of people could benefit!

Rex Grigg, do you think 2 x 96W would give an even enough spread of light over a 60" long x 18" wide tank?


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Heady,

Maybe. Like I said your 60" tank is going to be a bear to light. If you wanted to really do it right then you would want a 2x55 watt kit and a 2x96 watt kit. Then mount them like this

55 - 96
96 - 55.

That would give you total coverage and right about 3 watts per gallon. But at that point you would really need to start thinking about CO2. I guess you could go with one 96 and one 55 but that's really not a lot of light. So go with the dual 96 and realize that the ends of the tank are going to be best for low light plants.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

Thank you Rex Grigg. If I can find a decent supplier of 96W bulbs, I think I will probably go that route since it will give me almost 2 watts per gallon. That should keep the algae at bay... I hope... without CO2.

In any case, do you know of a cheap way to add CO2 to a 100 gallon tank?


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

I don't think the length will be the problem for 96 watt bulbs. The reflectors are 34.5" long

both 55 watt and 96 watt reflectors are 4" wide and 2" high.

you will have light across the whole tank. I am not sure how well it will cover the width of the tank since it is only 4 inch wide reflector.

4x 55 watt is perfect for width but short on the length. Thats 8 inch wide (total reflector) covering 18" wide tank. approx 9" width coverage per reflector.

so, each 96 watt should cover approx 9 inch width for one side. You may have some dark spot in the back and front of your tank (if light is in the center of the canopy). can anyone varify that assumption?

Also the reflectors are 34.5" long. You won't be able to mount it horizontally which could cause the light distribution in the tank to look funny with different part on left side being brighter than the right side of the tank.
75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

The AH Supply reflectors give pretty good spread of light. I think it will work pretty good. As for a source for 96 watt bulbs, AH Supply again. Same place you get the kits. Cheap way to add CO2 to a 100 gallon tank? What do you consider cheap?

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

You know, I'm not really sure how cheap is cheap. I hadn't even thought about adding CO2 at all until it came up as part of the lighting discussion.

Ummm... I guess less than $50?????


----------



## Moe (Feb 1, 2003)

If your serious about growing plants, do your self a favor save the money and go presurized.
You spent good money on a 100g tank and stand.








Moe


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

I got the tank for 1/2 off and am building my own stand. Supplies thru BigAl's at about half off what I would have paid in a regular store. Still was more than I was planning to spend...


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

http://sammyxp.tripod.com/html/id23.html

there's "cheap" for you, not 50 bucks, but 100ish... plus a few easy DIY things. i haven't stuck CO2 on my tank yet, but according to all the big wigs here it's the cat's meow so honestly as soon as this poor college boy gets some money he WILL be buying a CO2 system. if you can build an aquarium stand, i think you shall have no problem working with the CO2 system. so i can't give you a recommendation about the CO2 system myself, but i DO recommend that you listen to some of the other guys here. they haven't lead me astray yet!







and as far as spending more than you thought... you DID remember to double it right? you know the rule... figure out a reasonable estimate, then double it to find out what it's actually gonna cost. it ALWAYS works like that! even if you don't buy some of the stuff now, i would at least put it on your wish list. i mean, you still have to STOCK the tank! that'll cost you a pretty penny too







good luck, and i'm glad you're having fun!

JP


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

jpm trying to scare people new to the hobby away







.

Honestly, people that never grown plants but kept fish before would under estimate the price by a lot with the lights, flourite, co2 system. 
The double rule could still under estimate the value by a huge chunk.

Not everyone is a DIY freak and can build anything and everything. Not to mention, they would need to have the machinery and tools for the project plus the time and patient require to find the stores that carry the parts in their area.

Buying everything from a LFS can get really expensive.

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

not trying to scare them away... just give them a warning







you're right, maybe triple the estimate hee hee. i remembered when i started out i got some cheap twintube fixture so i could have 4 15-watt bulbs over my 50 gallon and then i put some fertilizer in. WOW i was TOTALLY on top of things... ;-) then i ended up ripping out the substrate... going PC... adding real fertilizers... getting a canister filter, removing the UG filter, and dosing excel until i can get a CO2 system. it adds up quickly! ya i also know that they may not be able to make some of their own stuff, but i think that article also gives some recommendations about manufactured substitutes so they should be ok one way or another. making stuff yourself is only cheap if you know what you're doing and you don't need to make it 3 times before it works







buying from LFS can be quite expensive, and buying online isn't quite as bad... luckily for me i was ordering so much stuff at once the shipping and handling was like a drop in the bucket! it's ok, i'm finally doing good. i haven't killed any plants, and i think my plants were even pearling yesterday! pretty decent with no CO2 addition other than excel! i was happy. anyway heady, i was just warning you about the money that most of us inevidebly dump into our tanks. don't get scared!!







and honestly, feel free to make stuff yourself... but if you don't know how, you may just want to reconsider. as edge said, you'll waste a ton of time trying to find everything and learning how to do it. i started making my own stand once. wanted to make it nice and didn't want to spend the 130 bucks... after about 2 weeks of hell, 130 bucks didn't seem that bad







right now i'm making a canopy, but THAT is within my realm of skill, so i was able to save money doing that... ok enough ranting, i think we all scared heady enough







i betcha they just went out and bought a puppy!

JP


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

I need to find a place that sells a cheap price pvc pipe cutter and a glass cutter(?)(to drill the holes on a glass aquarium).

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

I think the basic rule for planted tanks is about $10-$20 a gallon. Before you add the fish and the plants.

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


----------



## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

You don't need a special tool to cut PVC pipe. A hand saw will work. Or anything really. I have run production mainline sewer crews and to cut the PVC pipe all we used were hand saws. It cuts really easily. If you have a Sawzall all the better but it will only save a little bit of elbow grease.

Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.


----------



## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

thats sound more resonable as a rule of thumb.

Can any other kind of power tool work? or would there be a possibility of damaging the blade?

75 Gal, 4.6 WPG MH 10 hour, pressurize co2 /w controller, Fluval 404, ph 6.8
Mike's Canadian Aquatic Plant Page
A Canadian's Plant Traders website


----------



## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

Well, what kind of powertools do you have? Most anything will work. But with the small size PVC we work with on aquariums a $5-$10 handsaw will be through it in less than five strokes. I myself have cut 18" gray pipe (sewer line) with a handsaw and it is not hard at all. If you have a miter saw or any type of circular saw you could do it. It would work best with a fine-toothed blade but not necessary. You would just have to be careful with a wood blade to go slow or it will rip out chunks of pipe instead of cutting clean.

I don't think you can hurt the blade on anything with PVC. Can't think of any off-hand that it would, but it is also 4am here and I REALLY should be sleeping, lol. PVC cuts a lot easier than you think it does. Like I said we cut it with a handsaw on a production pipe crew where you do anything to save time. Of course when I had to do it I used my 19.2v Dewalt Sawzall to do it.







But I am lazy, lol.

Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.


----------



## Moe (Feb 1, 2003)

Try using a hack saw used for cutting metal pipes, works great.

Moe


----------



## Heady (Mar 4, 2003)

Well guys, I just went and bought the 2-2x55 watt kits from AH Supply. I was worried the 2-96W with a 4" wide reflector wouldn't provide enough coverage over my 18" wide tank. This gives me 2.2 wpg (no CO2).

Any help with assembling this bear would be extremely useful as I am not electrically inclined (however I CAN follow directions...







)

BTW jmptotoro were you going to post your instructions...?


----------



## jpmtotoro (Feb 13, 2003)

heady drop me an email at [email protected] and i'll whip up some instructions for you. i started to take a few pictures but hadn't heard from you for a few days so i wasn't sure if you needed directions or not. the only tools you will need are some wire strippers and a drill with... i think a 1/8" bit plus a phillips head screw driver. just those 3 things. if you don't have a wire stripper, go grab one, they aren't too expensive. that's it. anway, drop me a line and i'll help you through the setup. if any other newbs here also need instructions on how to wire the light kit, feel free to drop me a line (use a good subject line so i don't delete it) and i'll be glad to help out. i'll try to make some detailed instructions some time, but in the mean time i'll help people out one at a time.

JP


----------

