# The Goldfish El Natural Tank Plan. (Very wordy!)



## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Will post a sketch of the plan if requested. 
I fell in love with the walstad method the very first time I set it up. I didn't have to do any water changes (no bucket hauling!), low budget (except the amount of plants!), no special equipment, and low maintenance plant keeping. Basically, less work and more time to just enjoy my fish tank. 
I noticed that the fish you usually see with this type of setup are tropical or subtropical fish that aren't a threat to the plants inside. Very few contain fancy goldfish. None contain slim-bodied, pond type goldfish (like the common, comet, shubunkin, which are what I'm looking to keep). I know that goldfish are usually seen as a boring beginner fish (even though in truth it may be one of the most difficult due to the vast amount of misinformation and misconception of how people think they can/should be kept) and they are known very well in the planted aquarium world as the messy, destructive, plant eating fish. But I still really want to keep a interactive, classic pet fish "Goldie" that I could enjoy just as well with very low maintenance. 
Here's my plan on eliminating the all too common issue (being that goldfish eat plants): Set a Riparium Style aquascape. Google Riparium if you don't know what it is. 
With a riparium, the plants are mostly outside of the water, where the goldfish would not have access to the tasty leaves and stock. The roots will be covered by the planters (thinking of using plastic shower caddies) and the growing media (like expanded clay balls, but I think coarse filter sponge will do just fine as well), thus preventing the goldfish from munching on them. I'm planning on planting plants that are very big root feeders such as crypts as well as Brazilian pennywort (the best plant for taking up nitrates pound for pound), and other marsh plants. Let's not forget pothos (aka Devils ivy) which I plant on using very liberally. Some lucky bamboo (because why not?) and few other common house plants just for show. These aren't all the plants I'm planning on using for emersed growth, but what I plan on using as the majority. 
I'm still planning on dirting the tank and capping it with some medium to large river rocks that the goldfish won't accidently swallow, then I'm planning on planting the tank with Java fern and anubias(two plants popular to planted goldfish tanks) very sparingly towards the front. But mostly, I'm thinking of planting the heck out of the tank towards the back and sides with elodia (aka anacharis) and water wisteria. They'll be the "distraction plants" that will be able to handle the abuse of getting eaten along with the floating water sprite, frogbit, and a big o' scoop of duckweed. I'm really interested to see how the anacharis will do. I found that the secret to growing them like crazy is cool temperature (just how the goldfish would like!). 
The tank would need to be at least 75 gallons but preferably a 125 for two or three "wakin" goldfish (they look like miniature koi with a cute skirt!) and a few dojo loach (aka weather loach, which are also surprisingly interactive. I hope the shallow shelves made by the hanging planters will deter it from jumping out of the tank). I'll remove the dojo if it's too much for the plants to handle. I'll have three hang on back filters for water circulation (one on each side other than the front), which will also be filled with plants instead of bio media. 
If you read it this far, thank you so much! I just gotta rant sometimes, you know? And the fam seem to be completely indifferent to it. So what do you think? Do you like it? Do you think it'll work? I'm open to all types of response whether they may be to improve or comment on this plan, positive, negative, or other thoughts. If you have a el natural goldfish tank, or have a different plan for it, PLEASE share them with me and how you did it (or would do it). I'd love to learn from your experiences and what you did. I've been only in this hobby for a year now.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I think this hobby is mature enough for anyone who wants to to try any scheme he wishes. All I ask is that you report on how it works out for you, just to help educate us about the variety of planted tanks that are possible. I'm going to guess that your idea will work, but it won't be a Walstad type tank, so you may find you have to modify that method a bit or a lot to make it do as well as you want it to.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC! I've never kept Wakins, or even seen any for that matter. But I love my pond shubunkins.

You biggest problem is likely to be the soil substrate. You are keeping two species of notorious diggers, and keeping the soil in place may not be possible. But all the other parts of your plan seem good to me. Having the emersed plants in the riparium will help tremendously with water quality. And the anubias and Java fern will have plenty of nutrients from the water column and should do fine if you decide to omit the soil

Please post some photos of the set up!


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Hoppycalif, 
Thank you so much for reading it all and your support! 
What are the requirements of it being a walstad tank? And isn't there a difference between Walstad and El Natural? I thought that Walstad method is followed by the book, while El Natural is any type of setup where the plants and the fish balance each other. So every Walstad tank is a El Natural, but not all El Natural tank is a Walstad. Isn't that right?


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Michael, 
I wanted to thank you for reading through my plan! I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on it and your support that it may work. 
I did indeed thought about the digging problem. I do agree that these two fish are known diggers and can understand your critique. I was thinking of using rocks that are about an inch in diameter and third of an inch thick, circular in shape like river rocks, hoping that they may be heavy enough from being dug. 
But honestly, the only reason for the dirt is to eliminate the need to vacuum the substrate. The anacharis will do just fine as they take in nutrients mostly from the water column, and I can just forgo the wisteria altogether. I'll be putting heavier stones along the bottom of the anacharis to keep them from being uprooted. And like you mentioned, anubias and Java fern don't need to be in the substrate and can just be attached to the rocks (or just left drifting with a simple weight). Can you think of a way that I may be able to eliminate the need for gravel vacuuming (or cut it down drastically like once or twice a year) yet not dirting the bottom? Would it be just fine without the dirt and maybe the bacteria will be enough to clean the gravel? If so, I'm all for that idea as I would prefer it myself. 
A thought came into my mind as I was writing this, what if I didn't dirt the tank, added smaller gravel (still with some bigger accenting stones for asthetics, and heavier stones along the anacharis), but then add a bunch of Malaysian trumpet snails to clean up the waste? Would that work? I heard that loaches eat snails, but I think they meant pond snails and ramhorns that do not have a flap to cover the shell opening. But even then, I think the snails would be able to reproduce fast enough from being wiped out. Don't you think?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

"Walstad" is the only one of these terms that has a real definition, because of Diana's book. The rest (El Natural, low-tech, natural planted tank) have much looser meanings and are often used interchangeably.

Large gravel (pea-sized and up) actually requires more vacuuming because the larger spaces allow even more debris to settle into the gravel, rather than staying on top where the filter (or simple siphoning) will remove them. A thin layer of fine gravel or sand would not need to be vacuumed very often if at all. Malayan trumpet snails help to keep the substrate aerated, but can't cope with large amounts of waste.

If you want to use a soil substrate, I suggest layering it as in a typical Walstad tank, then planting with large tough-leaved plants with very strong root systems (swords, crinums, some water lilies, large cryptocorynes). Start out with very young, small fish and hope the plant root systems can grow them. This approach could also work with an all-gravel substrate and liberal use of root tabs.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Michael said:


> Having the emersed plants in the riparium will help tremendously with water quality. And the anubias and Java fern will have plenty of nutrients from the water column and should do fine if you decide to omit the soil


I agree with Michael. The riparium will do the heavy lifting for taking up nitrogen, but ferns and anubias would be nice for this tank. I had one very pretty tank with just lava rocks and attached_ H. bolbitus_. There are so many beautiful plants that don't require a soil substrate.

One advanced hobbyist I know didn't want to mess with a soil substrate for his 75 gal. He used sheets of plastic mesh, the type used for needle point available at craft stores. He attached the ferns to the mesh, laid horizontally and raised slightly above the bottom glass. The plants eventually covered the bottom of the tank. He also had floating plants- Water Sprite. This tank did so well that he had Corys spawning in the tank, mainly in the rhizomes/plastic mesh substrate.

If you use Hang-on-the-Back filters, don't let the water level get too low such that there's a lot of splashing from the "waterfall." Too much splashing/aeration removes CO2 from the system.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A Walstad tank will have a natural soil substrate, and it will be maintained as she outlines in her book. That method works well because all of the method works together. When you make changes in her method you can't expect to get her results, unless you totally understand every aspect of it, and know your changes are compatible.

There are other low light, thus low maintenance, methods. Following one of those methods might work out better for what you are trying.


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Micheal, 
Your post never cease to be intriguing. I didn't know that bigger gravel will result in more debris build up. I'll definitely tweek my plan to use smaller gravel then. Wouldn't sand be dangerous for goldfish? I feel like sand would be more easier to accidentally swallow.


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Diana Walstad, 
First of all, thank you for reading this plan of mine and hello! I really enjoy your method of fish keeping! 
I'm glad that you also believe that this plan may work! I'll be sure to heavily plant the amphibious planters to make sure they do most of the nitrogen uptake. 
Plastic mesh?? I've never heard of that before, but now I'm really interested on how it works! Could you please post some pictures of it or link me to it? I'd like to know exactly what he did. Would you put dirt under the mesh and attach to the bottom of the tank with suction cups, then add the gravel on top of it? If not, would that work?
Will I be needing to keep my CO2 in check? I didn't know, because I read on the aquarium wiki (about the Walstad method, because to this day, I still don't have a copy of your book and I'm trying to save up my money to do so) that the most limiting factor in fish stocking was the amount of oxygen. And I heard that goldfish are high oxygen needing, high CO2 producing fish, and dojo loaches can breath atmospheric oxygen but give off CO2 in the water. Wouldn't the plants in the tank (seems like it'll be anacharis, Java fern and anubias) not need much CO2 other than from the fishes? And the floating plants (water sprite, frogbit, and duckweed) as well as the marsh plants would be using the CO2 from the air, so I just thought having more splashing would be great. But, hey, you're the expert here (literally!), so I'm just asking for the explanation. I can do less hang on back filters or even internal ones. I'll be keeping the water level just a few inches from the rim. I'll maybe even try to attach some moss to the outtake of the filter to decrease splashing, if I need to.


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

hoppycalif, 
I do understand that my plan isn't consistent with the traditional Walstad method, and I do not expect its results. Therefore the reason why I decided to name it "El Natural" instead of "Walstad". Unless those terms are completely interchangeable. If that's the case I'll be sure to name it something else. Maybe, "El Natural Inspired Goldfish Tank"? 
Thanks for the info about the low tech plan. I'll be sure to keep your plan in mine if this plan doesn't workout.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Any tank that uses plants to purify the water for fish and doesn't have CO2 injection is an NPT in my eyes. This means tanks with potted plants, which I am currently using to raise guppies, or those that use a plant sump or refugium to purify water for the main tank. I would be honored to have them called Walstad tanks, but I'm not going to start splitting hairs here or get into word taxonomy. 

The gentleman who set up his 75 gal NPT without soil has gotten back to me with details of his method and some photos. I'll post them later today in a new thread.


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## Mafoota (Mar 13, 2010)

Could you put some pond liner over the soil and then put the substrate over that. When you plant you slit the plastic and plant through through it? This might help prevent soil being kicked up by the fish. I've never done this, just thinking out loud.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

A plastic cover like pond liner over the soil would block the entry of oxygen into the soil. Chances are that it would cause the soil to go severely anaerobic, killing the plants and possibly the fish as well.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Impermeable pond liner would definitely be a bad idea. But some porous landscape fabric might work without causing anaerobic conditions in the soil. Also You might try a coir fabric as used to line hanging baskets. This would protect the soil for a while, but would eventually decompose.


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Here's the sketch of my plan!! The third picture is what I'm thinking of doing for the substrate. 
Alternatively, what if I put down a layer of filter floss on top of the dirt, then put the gravel on top? 
What if I put down a layer of filter floss AND the mesh down on the dirt? Could the floss itself be a dirt substitute? I'm also thinking maybe add the smallest layer of dirt under the floss, or just put dirt on the floss. 
The mesh being the plastic needle point mesh for quilting.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

Don't go with lucky bamboo. 
But wow that sketch is a work of art, not a sketch.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

If you want to put something between the soil and the cap, be careful that it does not pose an entanglement hazard for the loaches or goldfish. The plastic needle point mesh is stiff and probably the safest option. Unless the loaches get underneath it find themselves trapped.

This will be an experiment and might fail.


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

DutchMuch, 
Thank you! I spent two hours on it! 
And why not bamboo?


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## Paradise fish (Aug 27, 2017)

Michael, 
I think you just scared me from ever using the mesh haha.


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## DutchMuch (Apr 12, 2017)

The bamboo has reports of being poisonous and killing basically your whole tank inhabitants. I personally haven't experienced this, but its a very common report. Plus it just doesn't do well in "aquaponics" or tanks.


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