# Flourish trace or Tropica plant nutrition?



## adechazal (Nov 12, 2008)

Looking for some feedback as Tropica's plant nutrition is now $109 for 5 liters... I've been using the 
Tropica product for the last 1.5 years. I notice that the Flourish Trace product is almost half the price. Are these effectively the same micro fert products?

I've been reading the posts about PPS etc. and so far I'm just confused, I'll keep reading though as I would like to get away from the commercial magic mixes for traces. I'm sure I could be doing as good a job with a much cheaper product.

Thanks for any feedback.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Flourish (comprehensive) is close to the Tropica Plant Nutrition _liquid_. Flourish Trace is just spring water and it is a waste of money.

Check F. (comp) and F. Trace out at Seachem's site and the following calculator. TMG is Tropica Plant Nutrition _liquid_. You can find what is in TPN_i_ from your instructions, Tropica's site or the fertfriend calculator.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/Planted.html
http://www.fishfriend.com/fertfriend.html


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm about ready to switch back to the Flourish stuff myself due to the skyrocketing Tropica prices. I've used the regular Flourish before and it works just fine. I second what Left C says above - make sure you don't buy the Seachem "Flourish Trace". It has no practical use as far as I can tell.


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## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

What happened? I could swear I paid $40 for the 5 liter last time.
$109 at big als I see. That's just crazy.


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## adechazal (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks for the help. I did pull up the two products at http://www.fishfriend.com/fertfriend.html and compared them. Frankly I don't know enough about traces to tell how similar/different they are based on the numbers. I'll go with the general comments that they seem to be relatively interchangeable for a hobbyist like me. So at $30 for 2L or the equivallent of $75 if there were a 5L version as compared to $109 for the 5L of Tropica I'll go with the Flourish and see how it goes.

I'm still reading up on the PPS thing and I've got probably two weeks before I run out of the Tropica product so if anyone would suggest bagging the commercial fluids and going PPS for the micros let me know.

Thanks again for the input.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

It is possible to buy the Seachem ferts in larger sizes - BigAl's sells a 4 liter bottle for $57.


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## adechazal (Nov 12, 2008)

Hmmm, I see the 250ml, 500ml and the 2L but not the 4L. That's alright though, I've been making due with the 500ml Tropica so 2L will be a big help.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

I just checked with our vendor and he told me that if I wanted I could get 5 gallon buckets of any seachem fertilizer and excel.
Man! 5G's that would be pretty heavy.

-O


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Orlando, can you get us a retail price on the 5g size? I'd be interested for sure!!!


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

You need just the Flourish? Checking now..


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Ok, It looks like everything is $299.99 in 5 gallon square drum like buckets.
If you want one let me know.
Thats a lot of fert.

Regards, Orlando


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## adechazal (Nov 12, 2008)

Orlando, nice to meet you, I'm new here. Can you do the 2L or 4L size of the Flourish? I checked out your site and saw the 500ml size. I'm always happy to support someone I know if possible. When I want to bathe in it I'll call you for the 5 gal size .


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Yes I can get any size. Im going to order 5 gallon tubs 2L and 4L Bottles.
I should have them by the end of next week.

Nice to meet you adechazal


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## adechazal (Nov 12, 2008)

Very cool, send me a PM when you have them in and I'll order from your site. Let me know if I need to mention anything like "Olando sent me" or something of that sort.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Orlando, I'm not trying to throw you under the bus here, but $300 for a 5-gallon bucket? That would make it $60 per gallon. BigAls is selling a 4-liter bottle of flourish for $57. I would have expected at least a small discount for buying in bulk.


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## orlando (Feb 14, 2007)

Hmmmm...1 gallon is 3.78 liters. so pretty close
Keep in mind these are not normally for resale. Mainly for brick&mortor shops to refill bottles for folks.
The weight of one 5 gallon bucket alone would cost a bit in shipping.
Hence the reason I don't provide 5 gallon buckets of it(50Lbs)
If you can find a price match of a 5 gallon bucket I would gladly do so. I cant find many places that do sell such quantity.

Thanks, Orlando

At $57 for 4 liter, $285.00 for 5G.
I could do that, but keep in mind its 50lbs of weight.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

I use Tropica and paid $49.99 for a 5 liter from Big Als June 2006
If it has doubled in price I will buy Flourish or CSM...I like it but I am not that loyal.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

vancat said:


> What happened? I could swear I paid $40 for the 5 liter last time.
> $109 at big als I see. That's just crazy.


$ 128.99 now. Some ppl claim that having an aquarium is a luxury. I have about 8 months supply of TPN. ($ 69.00 for 3 500ml bottles+shipping) This is the first time I am using TPN and yes, is very expensive, but I couldn't resist the temptation.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealin...=&sortby=&query=tropica&submit.x=0&submit.y=0


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

I just bought 1/2 gallon of Pfertz micros for 29.99. Want to alternate between TPN, CSM+B and Pfertz.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Of course you could just buy 1lb of CSM+B for $20, some HCl for another few dollars ($15 for 2 gal of 14.5% at home depot) and maybe another $10 in DI H2O and have enough to mix up 7-8 gals of stable micros. You'd be dosing .5ppm of iron a week at that rate; not as high as some go, but very far from limiting.

Kinda beats paying $50-$60/gal, especially considering your HCl will do for many more batches to come and you'll be getting a scale with which you can mix macro stock solutions or just dry dose by weight rather than hoping your teaspoon or their cap is accurate.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Of course you could just buy 1lb of CSM+B for $20, some HCl for another few dollars ($15 for 2 gal of 14.5% at home depot) and maybe another $10 in DI H2O and have enough to mix up 7-8 gals of stable micros. You'd be dosing .5ppm of iron a week at that rate; not as high as some go, but very far from limiting.
> 
> Kinda beats paying $50-$60/gal, especially considering your HCl will do for many more batches to come and you'll be getting a scale with which you can mix macro stock solutions or just dry dose by weight rather than hoping your teaspoon or their cap is accurate.


Lol, of course you can do this and keep it simple but, people don't, including me. I have all kinds of ferts in my house, all I need to do is learn math and chemistry


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Since I started overdosing a little my weeds are growing faster and greener. I noticed that the plants are using a lot more NO3 than before. Fish are doing great also.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You don't really need to know much 

If you can bake cookies and use household cleaners or solvents responsibly, I'm pretty sure you can pull this recipe off. The time to do this might be a couple hours the first time around, including cleaning the work space and cleaning up after. With some practice, you should be able to get it done in less than an hour.

"Cooking" Ingredients:
15.3g CSM+B
10-15ml HCl (14.5% at home depot sold as muriatic acid for pools, the same amount of 10% will work too; it's a padded number)
1-2L DI H2O (get 1 gal from your local supermarket, sometimes it's in the pharmacy)

Tools:
1 measuring cup or other container that can accurately measure 1L
1 tbsp measure (1 tbsp is about 15ml, you can measure your HCl with this)
1 disposable pipette (For the HCl, those full bottles are hard to pour. nail salons should have them if you don't have a hydroponics or chem store around.)
1 scale accurate to at least .1 of a gram ($25 for one more accurate than that can be ordered online.)
1 stir spoon for mixing
1 spoon for scooping the CSM+B
1 small container to put on the scale for measuring CSM+B
1L bottle
1 funnel (Depending on your mixing container.)
100+ rags for wiping spills and residues. Seriously though, keep a few around; a good cleaning helps.

Safety:
-Glasses
-Apron
-Gloves
-Long sleeved shirt
-Pants optional (just kidding)

Directions:

1. Start by giving all your tools and work surface a wipe down (no... not the rags too, but they should be clean). Use some DI H2O to do this.

2. Pour about 2/3 of a liter of DI H2O into your mixing container.

3. Add 10-15ml of HCl to the mixing container, stir, wait 5 minutes.

4. Weigh out 15.3g of CSM+B. Be sure to use the tare button or subtract the weight of your weighing container.

5. Add the CSM+B to the DI H2O gradually while stirring. It may clump up on you if you add it too quickly, just break it with the tip of the spoon and it will go into solution.

6. Keep stirring until everything is dissolved. There will likely be a few grains of impurity at the bottom. Leave it sit for a few minutes after to be sure that the mixing is done.

7. Top off the solution to 1L

8. Pour the finished product into your bottle, and mark the bottle clearly.

Dosing:
1ml for ever 6L of column dosed 3x a week will give you .5ppm of Fe through CSM+B, and all the other micros that go along with it. This recipe will not spoil if left out of the fridge, the HCl prevents that. I believe one batch lasts about 12 weeks on a 50 gal tank.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

It is good to know that the HCl will extend shelf life. Not sure that will affect photodegredation of the chelated Fe. Best to keep the container with solution out of bright light and keep in the dark if convenient. Regarding measurements, most 1L measuring cups for kitchen use are only approximate. Don't worry, the described formula doesn't have to be extremy accurate. For the same reason, I wouldn't worry about buying an expensive scale. I have one, but I personallydo all my dry measures using Tbs and tsps. One othe thing worth mentioning is to be very careful with the muriatic acid. Hence the glasses.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Good point there nfrank.

If you're going to mix a batch of this stuff up, you can get a 1 quart bottle of hydrogen peroxide from target for $1. It's nice and solid so the Fe EDTA won't get screwed up by sunlight.

I wish I could recall the company that made my fert mixing containers; I can't find a brand anywhere. They do commercial kitchen wares, and all their measuring tools are accurate but inexpensive. I'll ask next time I'm by the restaurant supply store.

For the average hobbyist, tsp/tbsp are definitely passable; feel free to convert with fertilator. This recipe is for the hobbyist new to DIY dosing. You could dose half as much or twice as much as that recipe lists, and the average person wouldn't notice a difference. 

At the same time, I heavily encourage everyone to get a scale because I believe it's a cheap tool that does a hobbyist a lot of good. DIY 4KH solutions and test kit calibration solutions are things that should be far more common in the hobby, DIY dechlorinator too. If you have a scale, you can save far more money by using it than what it cost to buy the scale in the first place. Yes, I unabashedly publish scale industry propaganda in my posts


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

great posts


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

wet said:


> great posts


Indeed


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Good point there nfrank.
> 
> I wish I could recall the company that made my fert mixing containers; I can't find a brand anywhere. They do commercial kitchen wares, and all their measuring tools are accurate but inexpensive. I'll ask next time I'm by the restaurant supply store.


Hi Dan,

If and when you find out please post it. I would like to get measuring tools and bottles/containers.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I did some looking and comparing. For the average hobbyist, ordering in a 2000ml glass beaker is probably the best bet. The stuff I'm using is too big to mix single or even double batches; I thought they had smaller.

For my individual test batches, I actually use a pyrex measuring cup that I've determined to be accurate by comparing with a proper graduated cylinder. I'll probably be ordering a beaker myself in the near future; 2L is perfect for mixing 1L and being able to stir at a decent rate.

Target hydrogen peroxide bottles are really the best deal for bottles. By the time you're through getting plastic bottles shipped to you, the break-even point might be something like 1000 plastic bottles.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> I did some looking and comparing. For the average hobbyist, ordering in a 2000ml glass beaker is probably the best bet. The stuff I'm using is too big to mix single or even double batches; I thought they had smaller.
> 
> For my individual test batches, I actually use a pyrex measuring cup that I've determined to be accurate by comparing with a proper graduated cylinder. I'll probably be ordering a beaker myself in the near future; 2L is perfect for mixing 1L and being able to stir at a decent rate.
> 
> Target hydrogen peroxide bottles are really the best deal for bottles. By the time you're through getting plastic bottles shipped to you, the break-even point might be something like 1000 plastic bottles.


Hi,

OK. I have a Target close to where I live. I'll check it out tomorrow. Right now I am using Seachem and TPN 500ml bottles. Thanks.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

*Shaken or Stirred?*



> 2L is perfect for mixing 1L and being able to stir at a decent rate


Like martini's, i tend to shake my fert mixtures, although not quite as vigourously. 

Any reason not to dump ferts into a 2L bottle, cap it, and invert it back and forth until the dry chems are dissolved? OK to use sink water rather than distilled (provided it is relatively soft), and which can be warm right out of the tap -- to further help with dissolving?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Doing the bottle thing should work for macros, but be sure it's a clear bottle rinsed out with DI so you can see everything dissolve completely. I'd personally swirl without a cap because some of those reactions will generate heat, meaning pressure. Others are endothermic; might suck the bottle in a little.

CSM+B is not one I'd recommend for the bottle; it can turn into chunks of precipitate under certain conditions that take a while and some proding to disassociate again.

In terms of tap water, I couldn't recommend it. Water our of a tap is not completely stable or reliable beyond being within EPA limits because of testing. I've seen tap go through NO3 and PO4 spikes with the farming season, 4KH shifts on areas that run off multiple wells (Boise, ID is this way believe it or not), etc. For the 80 cents a gallon of DI costs, I'd rather have reliable ferts. Even anything labeled as using steam distillation isn't too bad of a bet.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

Check this out:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/search.aspx?search=dispensing chambers&page=1

I ordered 7 16oz dispensing bottles for $18.00 shipping included. No more Seachem bottles


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

You guys should check out this thread on containers at the PPS forum: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/58222-containers-pps-mix.html

Still very happy with these guys, which were a little more coin but I feel will last me for years on top of years, so relatively inexpensive. 









I like how the increments make for fast adjustments -- I do ~1mL into 20 gals is 1ppm NO3 and ~0.4ppm PO4 (separate bottles). This lets me hit targets easily. The syringes are the same locking standard as you'll find from any hospital supply. For example, when I picked up Cidex Pro I also got 100 3mL syringes for like $6 with no additional shipping.


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## barbarossa4122 (Dec 31, 2009)

wet said:


> You guys should check out this thread on containers at the PPS forum: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/58222-containers-pps-mix.html
> 
> Still very happy with these guys, which were a little more coin but I feel will last me for years on top of years, so relatively inexpensive.
> 
> ...


Hey Wet,

That's too complicated for me but, I like it a lot. Thanks for the link.


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