# 180l (~47gal) tank



## mysiak

Please say hello to my first tank ever, Juwel Rio 180 jungle. First photo taken after weekly pruning, second one is how it all started about 1.5 years ago . I didn't know anything about Walstad method back then, but it is using similar principles (nutrient rich substrate, old "living" substrate, gravel cap, many plants,..). Substrate is quite thick, but I installed heating cable underneath, so there is smaller risk of having anaerobic conditions. I don't add any CO2 or liquid carbon, only root fertilizer every few months. Recently, about a month ago, I stopped dosing liquid fertilizer as well (I suspect that it was slowly killing my shrimps and snails) and plants are still growing fine.

P.S. all driftwood pieces are still in the tank


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## Michael

Very healthy looking tank!


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## DutchMuch

Nice looking!


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## zolteeC

I like this tank.


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## dwalstad

Lovely tank! It was a pleasure to look at. 

AND I don't remember ever seeing such fat Cardinal Tetras.

You're on a roll!


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## mysiak

Thank you all, I'm glad that you enjoyed my photos. I will post an update here and there, even though it's probably hard to see small changes in such a jungle, so they'll probably look the same 

I was surprised with the size of Cardinal tetras as well, I guess that they are enjoying diet on unlucky shrimplets. Also almost all of them are females and being in hard water, they never even tried to breed, so I believe they might be still storing their eggs, making them even bigger.


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## mysiak

Jungle after weekly trimming. Still no added ferts - everything grows nicely except 3 exceptions.

1. floaters were showing a bit of iron deficiency, but they were covering 100% of surface after return from 2 weeks vacation. I removed pretty much everything and kept only few pieces - these don't show deficiency symptoms (yet).

2. banana plant doesn't grow, I see new leaf occasionally, but it almost immediately disintegrates. No roots growing when put on substrate either. I moved it to the middle of tank, under strong light - no change yet.

3. in vitro cultivation of Echinodorus quadricostatus and dwarf sag don't want to grow even after a month. They get uprooted very often by snails and there is a very little roots growth visible. No idea what's wrong with them, I though that they are weed under almost all conditions..

Aanyway, couple of pictures (including our diver sheep Olivia ).

Oh, and one of three swordtail females grew gonopodium, it took him more than one year to become adult 

(linked from imgur, click for higher res)


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## zolteeC

Nice jungle you have grown there


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## mysiak

Thanks, I mostly let nature take its course, with gentle trimming here and there. 

Btw. I lost most of red shrimps, though natural colored ones are everywhere (green, transparent, brown,..). I guess that fish can pick brightly colored shrimps more easily, so they become food  Well, another example of nature taking its course.. I will repopulate red shrimps once my bigger fish die of old age (swordtails and cardinal tetras). Small platies and endlers shouldn't do much damage.


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## dwalstad

I'm envious! That is an incredible planted tank. "Olivia" sends it over the top.

Also, thanks for the help about Facebook.


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## mysiak

I wanted to test a video sharing, so took a short mobile video of feeding frenzy - click on the picture to play it, I can't figure out how to fully embed it from Flickr (I guess I have to use Youtube for such feature).



MOV_0018 by mysiak, on Flickr


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## dwalstad

Pretty cool! You've got some awfully nice Platies. Thanks for posting.


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## mysiak

Thanks 
Platies are second or third generation of "sunset" Platies, but lost most of the sunset color. What is strange to me, all fry are females. I haven't seen another male for several months. Also these adult Platies are quite small, certainly smaller than their parents or other Platies I often see at LFS. I don't really mind it, but wondering if it's genetics or they just take their time to grow to their full potential.


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## FromReefs2Plants

very pretty! what is that disc that they are eating?


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## mysiak

FromReefs2Plants said:


> very pretty! what is that disc that they are eating?


That's spirulina tablet, you can stick it to the glass, or just drop in the tank for bottom feeders. It's my favorite form of food - not too messy, bigger fish feed directly on the tablet, smaller ones catch floating bits. And anything that falls on the substrate is picked by shrimps and snails


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## mysiak

After about 2 months with no liquid fertilizer, I noticed quite heavy stunt of growth of almost all stem plants and floaters. Root feeders slowed their growth as well, though not to that extent. As a side effect, nitrates are creeping up. I started dosing Easylife Profito (I'm going to switch to Seachem Flourish once I finish the bottle) few days ago, with almost immediate positive response of plants. My primary suspect is iron deficiency, most probably combined with some other micro element shortage. Hard to tell without (lab) tests..

There goes my experiment with "no ferts" tank, back to the weekly fertilization then..  I ask myself if the situation would be different if I had a "real" soil as the substrate. I guess that not so much, as most problems are observed on plants with no roots in the substrate, but who knows..

Edit: I like posts with pictures, so here you go, experiment with feeding of Nori sushi wrap


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## DutchMuch

mysiak said:


> I ask myself if the situation would be different if I had a "real" soil as the substrate. I guess that not so much, as most problems are observed on plants with no roots in the substrate, but who knows..
> 
> Edit: I like posts with pictures, so here you go, experiment with feeding of Nori sushi wrap


Like the pics and thank$ for the update! 

Well i cant remember what Type of soil you used but usually a soiled tank lasts for.... Well over a year in my experience. I would stretch that and say 2 years buuuut i cant really remember how long ive had one of my tanks dirted LOL.

Now with your comment, "I guess that not so much, as most problems are observed on plants with no roots in the substrate, but who knows.." Are you saying that the soil substrate only gives nutrients to plants with roots shooting into the soil? If you mean that, then ill explain to you that Soil slowly leaches nutrients (in different ways, ill explain) to the water column. Whenever you see and air bubble break up from the soil (usually in newer setups) then you can expect that its shooting out a lot of cold water and nitrogen, with some other nutrients of course. It also just slowly disperses into the water over time as simple as that.

dont know if that's what you meant but oh well lol if it is then u got some info!

Also never heard of feeding a Nuri sushi wrap to fish, tbh ive never heard of the sushi wrap at all LOL.


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## mysiak

I have used probably 3 different substrates in this tank. I forgot which exactly, but basically:
1. layer of some kind of fertilized "soil" for aquatic plants
2. "old substrate" - gravel mixed with detritus and I don't know what else 
3. clean gravel

From time to time I'm adding root fertilizer (sticks, tabs,..) - whenever I see that Echinodorus plants stopped growing. 

You got my comment about soil substrate right. I know that there are some nutrients leaching into the water column, however no idea how much and what's their real availability to plants. And btw., I have a heating cable installed, though absolutely no idea if it makes any difference (or if it's even working ). I believe that I have enough nutrients in the substrate, but obviously not enough of them leach into the water column (or plants can't use them). I can try to put more root sticks into the substrate..

I learned only yesterday that Nori (some kind of seaweed) is often used as a food for saltwater fish and sometimes also for freshwater fish/shrimp. Mine fish eat it slowly, but their reaction isn't anywhere near to what they do with brine shrimp..


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## FromReefs2Plants

yeah nori and other sw algae sheets are a widely used food for tangs and angels. Lots of other fish like then as well but those are the two main ones.


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## DutchMuch

FromReefs2Plants said:


> yeah nori and other sw algae sheets are a widely used food for tangs and angels. Lots of other fish like then as well but those are the two main ones.


ooooh cool stuff!


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## DutchMuch

mysiak said:


> I have used probably 3 different substrates in this tank. I forgot which exactly, but basically:
> 1. layer of some kind of fertilized "soil" for aquatic plants
> 2. "old substrate" - gravel mixed with detritus and I don't know what else
> 3. clean gravel
> 
> From time to time I'm adding root fertilizer (sticks, tabs,..) - whenever I see that Echinodorus plants stopped growing.
> 
> You got my comment about soil substrate right. I know that there are some nutrients leaching into the water column, however no idea how much and what's their real availability to plants. And btw., I have a heating cable installed, though absolutely no idea if it makes any difference (or if it's even working ). I believe that I have enough nutrients in the substrate, but obviously not enough of them leach into the water column (or plants can't use them). I can try to put more root sticks into the substrate..
> 
> I learned only yesterday that Nori (some kind of seaweed) is often used as a food for saltwater fish and sometimes also for freshwater fish/shrimp. Mine fish eat it slowly, but their reaction isn't anywhere near to what they do with brine shrimp..


Do you have a link to the soil or any idea of the actual name of it? this would help a bunch on the journey to why your plants are struggling currently. 
btw ive followed this little journal and i like all your pictures very much


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## mysiak

Found it - it's JBL Aquabasis plus. I seriously doubt that there is anything left in it, I had to start with root ferts dosing after about a year.

To be honest I see no mystery here - substrate is depleted and out of micro elements, so I have to keep adding root ferts every couple of months. Micros contained in fish food are not enough to keep those hungry floaters and stem plants happy, so I need to dose also liquid ferts. I might have luck with "overdosing" of substrate with root tabs, but that sounds too risky. Adding a bit of liquid after weekly water change is ok with me. Another thing which might help is to lower the light intensity, but I like it bright, so that's not a feasible option.. 

I just wanted to have "NPT without soil", but that's probably not possible. So I'll be happy with "almost NPT" 

And thanks, I'm glad that someone enjoys my posts/pictures, I'll keep posting them then


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## DutchMuch

mysiak said:


> Found it - it's JBL Aquabasis plus. I seriously doubt that there is anything left in it, I had to start with root ferts dosing after about a year.
> 
> To be honest I see no mystery here - substrate is depleted and out of micro elements, so I have to keep adding root ferts every couple of months. Micros contained in fish food are not enough to keep those hungry floaters and stem plants happy, so I need to dose also liquid ferts. I might have luck with "overdosing" of substrate with root tabs, but that sounds too risky. Adding a bit of liquid after weekly water change is ok with me. Another thing which might help is to lower the light intensity, but I like it bright, so that's not a feasible option..
> 
> I just wanted to have "NPT without soil", but that's probably not possible. So I'll be happy with "almost NPT"
> 
> And thanks, I'm glad that someone enjoys my posts/pictures, I'll keep posting them then


I have only 1 more question :spit: how old is the tank?
Says this on the site, 
Nutrient substrate for beautiful and permanent plant growth in all freshwater aquariums. Works for 5 years guaranteed"


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## mysiak

DutchMuch said:


> I have only 1 more question :spit: how old is the tank?
> Says this on the site,
> Nutrient substrate for beautiful and permanent plant growth in all freshwater aquariums. Works for 5 years guaranteed"


Tank is almost 2 years old (will be in 2 months). I vaguely remember that when I was purchasing this substrate, JBL "guaranteed" 2 years of working. In my case, it provided enough nutrients for about a year, then I had to start using root tabs. 5 years..maybe they changed the formula since then? Or I simply don't remember it correctly, who knows..


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## DutchMuch

Well im following, wish you luck on this


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## mysiak

Good news and bad news..

Good - all plants took off after another dose of liquid ferts (Bacopa turned red almost overnight), nitrates decreased.

Bad - it seems that few fish are suffering with gill flukes (or something else which is attacking their gills) - I see about 2-3 fish which are breathing heavily with operculum wide open. I had only Esha Exit at hand, but it didn't help much. I will obtain Esha Gdex (Praziquantel) within 2 days, hopefully they'll make it until then. I introduced couple of new endlers few weeks ago, no idea if it's related as they aren't showing any symptoms 

Anyway..pictures..(as always click on them to see them sharp at full resolution)


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## dwalstad

Fish diseases cause a lot of problems and flukes are bad news, indeed. I've been through the wringer with skin flukes on my guppies; gill flukes are a little more challenging but still treatable and manageable. I just posted a brand-new article 'Flukes and Sick Guppies' on my website: https://dianawalstad.com Article (8 pages) describes my experience with skin flukes and some treatment options. Apparently, gill and skin flues are susceptible to the same treatment drugs and methods. You might find article useful.


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## mysiak

I read your article shortly after it has been published, big thank you for writing and sharing, it's very informative. I am facing similar problem as you - I can't add enough salt to this tank due to plants/snails and it's quite challenging to catch infected fish. Sadly I do not have quarantine tank, so I have to treat fish where they are. Also I suppose that at this point I should treat the whole tank anyway. I am going to use Praziquantel and probably re-medicate the tank in 3 or so weeks. Quite interestingly fish don't seem to be "flashing" at all, they "just" breath heavily and show less interest in food. I'll report if Esha Gdex did the trick.

Yesterday I made a short video of the tank..


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## mysiak

Day 2 of Praziquantel treatment (out of 3, according to the Esha Gdex instructions) - shrimp and snails don't seem to be bothered at all. Plants don't show any ill effects either (yet). However I noticed quite strong behavioral change on fish after medication - they lose interest in food, many of them hide under leaves or just stop swimming and stay at one place. Then out of nowhere they dart away as if they were chasing something or being chased and then they stay still again. It impacts mostly swordtails, platies and a molly. After few hours they resume their normal activity, so it's not a long term effect. Endlers are mostly unaffected (males try to breed probably in all possible and even impossible situations and conditions), but they show very little interest in food. There aren't many articles describing side effect of medications for fish, so I was quite surprised when I saw it. 

Sick fish:
1. big female swordtail is still breathing rapidly, but it seems that situation improved for her
2. small female platy seems to be ok now
3. female Endler guppy sadly passed away before I started the medication
4. other fish didn't show breathing problems, but some of them are having unusual excrements (white, sometimes stringy, sometimes like jelly or almost watery) - I suppose that they had internal parasites without visible symptoms

Praziquantel is supposed to be completely safe and biodegradable, but to be honest, I look forward to doing the partial weekly water change..


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## mysiak

End of the treatment.. 2 casualties so far - already mentioned guppy female and also female swordtail, basically two fish due to which I began the treatment. I expect another Endler male to pass away soon, he's having breathing difficulties which don't really improve (he's having issues for some time already though, they just come and go). I made the last attempt with providing medication via food - I squirted couple of drops of Gdex + garlic extract on flakes. Fish don't like it much though, they mostly taste it and spit it out, but something ends up in them.. 

Million dollar question - was it even flukes? From what I found, breathing issues can be caused by:
1. poor water quality - tests were fine and it should impact pretty much all fishes in the tank, which wasn't the case.
2. ich - I didn't see any dots on fish and Esha Exit is extremely effective against ich. In this case it was useless. 
3. flukes - hard to confirm without microscope, but symptoms match.
4. other parasites - Esha Exit + Esha Gdex treat against many species, but for sure can't kill everything. 

Or.. treatment was effective, but started too late and fish already had gills damaged beyond recovery. 

Unfortunately, my assumptions are impossible to confirm without biopsy/autopsy and microscope, so I just lay them out for discussion, if anyone's interested


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## dwalstad

I found Levamisole HCl to be much more powerful than the Praziquantel in treating the skin flukes that my fish had. (Your fish may have gill flukes, which are just as common.) 

The single Levamisole treatment of 10 mg/l for 24 hours cured my sick guppies. Three weeks later the flukes haven't come back. Knock on wood... (You can remove the drug from the water by adding fresh charcoal to the filter.)

As I wrote in my article, getting rid of disease susceptible fish may help in the long run. Some of my guppy strains never got sick, whereas members of one strain in particular were the first to get sick. I've stopped working with that strain entirely.

In my article, I talk about managing disease and using Levamisole.


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## mysiak

Thank you for the suggestions, I noticed Levamisole in your article, however Levamisole is almost unknown in my country (Slovakia, EU) and its availability is very limited. The only source I could find sells it in 10g package for about 80eur. Praziquantel for 2 full, 3 days treatments of my tank costs about 10eur (Esha Gdex). From economic and availability point of view, I have to favor Praziquantel. It seems that it helped to at least one fish with sick gills and others got rid of internal parasites (at least partially), so it's not a total failure. Should I get a chance to try Levamisole, I will do it for sure. 

Working with "resistant" strains makes sense, I would say that this is already happening in my tank - weaker fish/strains are naturally removed. At the end, only those which are not so susceptible to common diseases remain.

Having only one available tank limits me in doing experiments with medication (copper, salt,..) or selective breeding, so I mostly let the nature take its course. Only when I see more than one sick fish, I try to help with meds which are safe for everything (plants, shrimp, snails, fish). 
----
Current situation - I did a water change today and I didn't see any other suspicious behavior/appearance, so hopefully everything's ok. I will add Praziquantel to food as a preventive measure every now and then, but won't treat the whole tank unless necessary.


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## dwalstad

I think you've got a realistic grip on the situation. There's a struggle for survival in our tanks, both for fish and plants. It helps to accept the fact that you can't save every sick fish.


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## mysiak

Just a quick update - there were no further casualties and all remaining fish seem healthy. I still add a few drops of Praziquantel to the food (fish don't like it much though) once per week, but will probably stop soon. Fish act strangely after medication and I'm not sure if preventive dosing makes sense.

I can hardly believe that there is about a hundred of pink ramshorn snails (moved from my other tank) and about a hundred of endlers. Tank looks almost empty on this mobile shot (well, if you ignore plants)


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## dwalstad

Beautiful! You've definitely got a magic touch.


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## mysiak

Damned banana plant doesn't like this tank, after few failed attempts for a growth of small leaves it just sits there in the corner - no leaves, no roots. Similar thing is happening to Dwarf sag and Echinodorus tenellus, something is definitely killing them (Crypts? Other Echinodorus?).. But Crypts are spreading nicely, so I don't really mind.

Couple of pictures after another regular biweekly trimming.. No big change, jungle is still jungle


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## DutchMuch

mysiak whats the plant in the third picture? a hygro sp.? 

Btw pics look super awesome and crisp thanks for posting them


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## mysiak

DutchMuch said:


> mysiak whats the plant in the third picture? a hygro sp.?
> 
> Btw pics look super awesome and crisp thanks for posting them


Thanks  
Yeah, Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig with few stems of Hygrophila difformis. Polysperma is clearly winning, difformis was slowed down heavily by a lack of ferts (probably iron) during my "no added liquid ferts" experiment. This polysperma species is probably the only "red" (pink) plant which grows as weed without pressurized CO2 and it's extremely easy to propagate or keep in control. Amazing plant..


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## mysiak

Need help from you guys, I want a new center piece fish. My bigger fishes withered away or became too aggressive, so they had to go. Tank now looks "empty", despite being pretty crowded with endlers. 

Here's what I'm looking for:
- one/two bigger fish, or school of eye catching smaller ones
- must be happy in heavily planted tank, with no huge free space for swimming
- no problem if it eats endlers fry or juvie shrimps here and there, but should not actively hunt them, especially adults
- should be happy in harder water
- must be colorful (red, orange or neon blue/green) or "interesting"/eye catching
- must not hide 90% of the day time in shadows or behind vegetation

What I'm considering
- dwarf gourami male - comes in great colors, but would be one fish enough as a "center piece"?
- crescent betta family (1-2 males with 1-2 females) - harder to come by and might not be so colorful
- betta splendens male - would have to be with shorter fins (good swimmer) due to decent water movement from my filter
- small "school" of emperor tetras (2 males with 6 females) 
- dwarf neon rainbowfish (2 males, 6 females) - harder to come by, females probably not very "beautiful" 
- couple of colorful platies - not sure that I'm ready to take care of all the fry 
- fancy guppies - they come in lovely colors and shapes, but would crossbreed with endlers with questionable results

What I certainly don't want:
- mollies and swordtails, all of them either died due to sickness/genetic weakness or became extremely aggressive
- cardinal tetras - they are not living to their full potential in hard water and they hate strong light, so I don't really see them except feeding time (probably would be the same for neon tetras) 
- fish with "boring" looking females (if I have to obtain them to keep males happy)
- any kind of aggressive fish, fin nippers etc. I don't tolerate aggression in my tanks, showing off is fine, active fighting and nipping not, especially interspecies one.
- plant eaters 

I will appreciate all your recommendations and comments. 

Quite a long post, so thanks for reading it


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## gkai

Regarding banana plants I never had any luck with them either: when my other plants flourished, they never grown more than one or two leafs that withered away almost immediately. Then banana are slowly disappearing (probably rotting and being eaten by snails)...tried 3 or four times in 4 years, and I will probably try again once in my new tank...but I suspect it is impossible to keep them in my type of water...probably need either low ph or soft water...


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## mysiak

Banana plant..Hm, it could be the water type.. Or maybe it's going through a period of dormancy and needs some specific conditions to start growing again. In each case, bananas are holding up so far, so hopefully I'll see new leaves in the future.

About new fish..it went faster then I expected..please say hello to my new tankmates, Henry (Colisa lalia) and "redish-blueish-whiteish" Platy pair without names 



New pals



Flashing endler male, trying to impress new neighbor



No one can resist a spirulina tablet


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## DutchMuch

Omg those pics!!!!!


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## FromReefs2Plants

I am going to pick up some endlers this weekend I think! Your tank certainly has me pushing that forward.


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## mysiak

Thank you guys 

I definitely recommend endlers, funny, always active and interesting to watch


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## mysiak

Endlers without bullies are much more fun to watch 

Btw. video is at original speed, they are really so crazy fast moving. Henry, the dwarf gourami, is trying to catch endler/platy fry, but they are blazing fast, he doesn't have a chance (so far)..


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## mysiak

I couldn't resist the offer for purchasing these juvie guys.. Who knows them? 



This little fella tried to hump everything that moves, including Cardinal tetras


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## mysiak

Did a bit of trimming, I can finally confirm that I still have the 3d background 





Two lovers


Another couple


Little piggy (he's eating a LOT and getting fat)


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## DutchMuch

epic crypts


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> I couldn't resist the offer for purchasing these juvie guys.. Who knows them?


My guess is that they are a pair of Mollies. Glad you are having so much fun with your tank!


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## mysiak

@DutchMuch - I am surprised how good growing these crypts are. I have also small species of crypt (Cryptocoryne x willisii) which grows maybe one leaf per month or two. So after two years it's still only a tiny bush.



dwalstad said:


> My guess is that they are a pair of Mollies. Glad you are having so much fun with your tank!


They are Limia perugiae. Not very well known, there is almost no information about them (except this interesting behavioral study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC47076/pdf/pnas01472-0179.pdf). For anyone interested - you can find a bit of information here https://translate.google.com/transl...ybicky.net/atlasryb/limie_perugiova&sandbox=1


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## mysiak

Quick update - banana plant has definitely died, shrimps and snails ate it completely. This was my last attempt with this interesting plant.

Otherwise..a jungle's still a jungle.. 

Short video of my "fish soup"


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> Quick update - banana plant has definitely died, shrimps and snails ate it completely. This was my last attempt with this interesting plant.
> 
> Otherwise..a jungle's still a jungle..
> 
> Short video of my "fish soup"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4JpEXDp6c_Y


mysiak, pretty cool tank. How do you keep the water such transparent? Do you use any special filter?

My tanks are also generally transparent (with very little filtration), but water is sometimes tinted slightly yellowish a bit. I must say I do not do water changes very frequently.


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## mysiak

zolteeC said:


> mysiak, pretty cool tank. How do you keep the water such transparent? Do you use any special filter?
> 
> My tanks are also generally transparent (with very little filtration), but water is sometimes tinted slightly yellowish a bit. I must say I do not do water changes very frequently.


Thanks! I used to use filter floss, but it clogged too quickly, so I stopped using it and now I have only couple of foams and ceramics media in the default Juwel filter. I clean them every 3-4 weeks, basically when I notice weaker water output from the filter. I replace about 10-20% of water every week and that's it. Every week or two I add big Catapa leaves and water has slightly yellow tint, but it's not really visible when viewing tank from the front side. Strong light and non uniform background probably add to this "transparent" effect in photos/videos.

Oh, and sometimes I spot dose hydrogen peroxide to the moss as a preventive measure against algae, so it might clean tannins as well.


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## mysiak

zolteeC said:


> mysiak, pretty cool tank. How do you keep the water such transparent? Do you use any special filter?
> 
> My tanks are also generally transparent (with very little filtration), but water is sometimes tinted slightly yellowish a bit. I must say I do not do water changes very frequently.


I've just realised, that I'm using Sochting Oxydator in this tank. I was lazy to fill in the Oxydators and they were empty for 2 or 3 weeks, water turned more yellow during this time. After filling them, water turned clear again. When I added one Oxydator mini to my nano bowl tank, it removed most of the tannins in just few days. So I guess that this is the key to success


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## mysiak

No photo update today, but it seems that my male Dwarf gourami is infected with DGIV (Dwarf Gourami IridoVirus), which is being said to be unfortunately very common and lethal.  Every day he looks worse, so I'm expecting the worse (almost lost his colors, a little bit swollen, not interested in food, extremely shy,..). "Henry" always greeted me during feeding time and begged for food, now he just hides in plants. I hate to see him in this state  If it's really DGIV, it's pretty much certain that he won't make it. Female seems to be ok though, at least for the time being. Should he die, I have no idea if I'll buy another Dwarf gourami male, or some other centerpiece fish less susceptible to such diseases. The only other suitable species coming to my mind is short finned Betta, though according to some sources, Betta splendens might get DGIV as well.  But I really wish that he'll make it..

In each case, if you have any suggestion for a medium-hard water community centerpiece fish (should not eat adult endlers and actively hunt shrimp), please let me know, it'll might come in handy sooner or later.


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## dwalstad

I have never heard of DGIV.

Before you give up on dwarf gouramis, which are just terrific community fish and ones that I have always had tender spot for, here are some thoughts to consider:

Your gourami may not have DGIV. Even if the virus is present, it could be a secondary infection in a fish weakened by the primary pathogen. (In Noga's textbook on fish diseases, iridoviruses are barely mentioned and DGIV not at all.) In my opinion, it is much more likely that your fish had MB (mycobacteriosis) or one of the more common aquarium fish diseases.

That said, in this situation where you have the resources and intellectual fire power, I would suggest buying a UV sterilizing filter to kill viruses and/or mycobacteria. Then, buy another male dwarf gourami and give this species another chance--and your female a new husband.

Here is article by good authorities from the Univ. of Florida on DGIV http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Iridovirus in gouramis.pdf I noted that these experts weren't even sure that the DGIV was the primary pathogen.


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## mysiak

DGIV is often mentioned as a very common Dwarf gourami disease. Though as you said, there seems to be a lack of scientific literature - the only article I could find is the same as you shared. Most of the information is anecdotal and unfortunately impossible to confirm without appropriate laboratory equipment. One of the argument for DGIV theory is, that if Dwarf gourami succumbs to a disease, very often only other gouramis in the tank get it, while all the other fishes don't show any symptoms at all. On the other hand, many different symptoms attributed to DGIV really suggests that DGIV "only" weakens the immune system of gouramies so they are not able to fight a common secondary disease.

Thank you for the suggestion about using an UV-C lamp. I always wanted one, but didn't find a very good reason for a purchase until now. As I don't have a canister filter, my choices were very limited. Luckily I found a really cheap (~7.5USD) 11W fully submersible UV-C lamp which I can put in the heater department of my internal filter. Now I just need to wait for the delivery from China..


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## dwalstad

Useful information. I see that I have been paying way too much for my lamps!
I use one sometimes to kill green water algae. If the lamp clears the green water (in a few days), I know that it will kill mycobacteria.


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## mysiak

Local prices of UV lamps are insane (if you can find one which fits your tank, next to impossible for internal filters). There is only one eshop in my country selling this particular model, for 5 times higher price (+ shipping). I would gladly support local economy and usually I do it, but it just doesn't make sense in this case.

Anyway, looking forward to receiving the lamp. I don't have algae issue (if I don't count the usual green/brown algae on the glass), so really curious if I'll notice some visual changes. I'll run it for a few days nonstop and then switch to recommended schedule by manufacturer (~10-20minutes per day).


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## mysiak

Lamp arrived, but broken  So another month of waiting.. I can't comprehend why they sent such a fragile item in a plastic envelope instead of a cardboard/styrofoam box.


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## mysiak

Tank has been moved to the new location - only a few meters between two rooms, but I was really stressed..  Fortunately it went really smooth - for anyone interested - I kept ~6cm of water with all the fish in it, moved the tank with the stand and then pushed the tank from one stand to the new one. Two people to carry the load and one assistant.

Almost 2 months with very little maintenance took its toll - I noticed several casualties of endler males and cardinal tetras (though many of them probably due to old age), but the strongest fish survived. Still waiting for the UV-C lamp, but got opportunity to buy a pair of cobalt/neon dwarf gouramis, so couldn't resist. Hopefully they'll be fine.

Couple of pictures (yep, it's still a jungle)..


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## dwalstad

Beautiful fish!


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> Tank has been moved to the new location - only a few meters between two rooms, but I was really stressed..  Fortunately it went really smooth - for anyone interested - I kept ~6cm of water with all the fish in it, moved the tank with the stand and then pushed the tank from one stand to the new one. Two people to carry the load and one assistant.
> 
> Almost 2 months with very little maintenance took its toll - I noticed several casualties of endler males and cardinal tetras (though many of them probably due to old age), but the strongest fish survived. Still waiting for the UV-C lamp, but got opportunity to buy a pair of cobalt/neon dwarf gouramis, so couldn't resist. Hopefully they'll be fine.
> 
> Couple of pictures (yep, it's still a jungle)..


Not an usual 'scape, but looks great!

My crypts don't grow this large.


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## mysiak

Thanks, I call it "natural jungle scape"  It's my first tank and I didn't know much about plants back then, so I planted them more or less randomly and let the nature take its course. Though I like the result and fish appreciate hiding places. 

Crypts were supposed to stay small(er), not sure why are they so big. I'm not doing anything special, just adding a weekly dose of Flourish and root stick every few months.


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> Thanks, I call it "natural jungle scape"  It's my first tank and I didn't know much about plants back then, so I planted them more or less randomly and let the nature take its course. Though I like the result and fish appreciate hiding places.
> 
> Crypts were supposed to stay small(er), not sure why are they so big. I'm not doing anything special, just adding a weekly dose of Flourish and root stick every few months.


Whatever you're doing, it's definitely working! Beautiful jungle.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH

Wow, never seen this tank before !!! Glad I stumbled upon it. Maybe in a couple of months when I set my new tank up you would sell some crypts ? Lol, I don't think I have seen so many crypts in a tank. Wonderful tank.

**edit** maybe not, your from Europe lol


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## mysiak

I noticed that crypts stopped growing, so I guess that it's time for putting some root sticks into the substrate again. Detritus doesn't seem to be enough to feed them.. And yes, sending plants across the ocean isn't probably a good idea 

On a sadder note, one of my new neon Dwarf gouramies suddenly doesn't move and just rests on the substrate or around floating plants. Yesterday she seemed perfectly fine.. The older female starts to show symptoms of bloating, so I expect that she'll follow the same fate as her "husband" few weeks ago. I am running UV sterilizer for 30 minutes per day, water clarity is a bit better, but otherwise I can't say that I see any difference. No idea if it has any impact on harmful bacteria. In each case, there goes my faith in disease free and hardy Dwarf gouramies..

Edit: and she's gone, no idea what killed her in less than 24 hours, I couldn't find any physical deformities with the naked eye :\


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## dwalstad

Sorry you lost your fish.


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## mysiak

Rumors about extremely low resistance of DG to otherwise common diseases and sometimes sudden death with no obvious reasons seem to be true. I am really curious if it's caused by this mysterious dwarf gourami iridovirus, or just genetic weakness due to overbreeding. My water parameters which I can measure are very good (0 ammonia / 0 nitrites / below 20 nitrates, stable pH and hardness).. In each case, I would hate to experience it again, so once remaining gouramis pass away, I'll stick to livebearers. Limias are coloring nicely and are very fun to watch, so school of them should act as a "centerpiece" fish. They even help to control the population of endlers, only the strongest fry survives now.

Pity though, DG is a very nice fish..


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## mysiak

I tried to capture how flashy Limia's are, but will need to try harder. This video will have to do until next time 










Oh and as I expected, I lost the female DG too, so only single neon blue male remains. Curious for how long..


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## rassta

stunning tank,love the music with it !


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## mysiak

Glad you like it.

I found the time to finally do the proper maintenance and here's the result. Almost no visible change after removing 2 full bags of plant material..  Well, at least in the photo, in person you can see the difference. 

Crypts and Echinodorus plants responded to the addition of root fertilizer almost immediately, I noticed new growth in just 2-3 days later. There is no chance that I would be able to keep them healthy with just liquid ferts - anyone struggling with Crypts, try it. I'm using Easy life root sticks, they are thin, easy to use and work wonders. No idea why this company decided to keep the exact content secret, but it works fine, so.. 





Another attempt for capturing the Limia show offs..


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## countcoco

I love this tank!!!! It's certainly one of the most successful natural, low-tech tanks I've seen.

I am very curious about the lighting; I'm guessing T5 fluorescent???

Also, do you test your water parameters? In particular GH and nitrates??

The dwarf neon gourami was the first tropical fish I ever purchased for myself about 10 years ago. He wound up dying after eating a small 'tag along' snail' that used to be all over the plants sold at aquarium stores in the US. The salesman told me that it's actually quite common for some gouramis to eat small snails, but they often die from it since that can't crush or digest the shell.


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## mysiak

Thank you countcoco! 

Lights are LED, Juwel Helialux (~5600lm) + 2x Aquatlantic Easy Led Tube (2x 1700lm), running on different schedules via controllers to simulate the sunrise/sunset and so I can have the tank lit for 15 hours with no ill effect on plants or algae. 

GH is on the upper threshold of my testing strips, so about or higher as 21 °dKH. Not ideal for a dwarf gourami, but shouldn't be fatal in just 1-2 weeks/months. Nitrates are usually somewhere between 20ppm and 50ppm. When I aimed for a lower value, plants started to suffer.

I have small snails in the tank, so it might be the reason of deaths, but as I didn't perform the autopsy, I can't confirm.. Friend of mine has the very same experience with labyrinth fish in general (Dwarf gourami, Betta splendens and Macropodus opercularis), all dying suddenly, some even after successful breeding. Go figure.. I'm focusing on rare livebearers now, they have more interesting behavior anyway.


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## lsantagostini

Hey mysiak, your tanks looks lovely.

Really great job !!!


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## countcoco

mysiak said:


> Thank you countcoco!
> 
> I'm focusing on rare livebearers now, they have more interesting behavior anyway.


Check out Greg Sage's channel on youtube. He's generally considered the number 1 guy for rare livebearers in the US.


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## mysiak

Thank you for the suggestion - I wasn't familiar with the name, but just realized that I've visited his web page and some videos in the past already. It's pity that he doesn't have anything about Limia perugiae, I would love to learn more about them. So far I noticed one interesting behavior during maturing - all Limias look as pregnant females first. Rounded big bellies, lack of color etc., then suddenly gonopodium starts to grow, they slim down and after a few weeks, nice male "appears". Out of ~7 supposedly females, at least 5 turned out to be males. I had to purchase another 5 females, so hopefully at least 2 will be real females and not only juvenile males.

If everything goes well, I should have a wild Platy in the tank soon, particularly Xiphophorus variatus "Puente Escalanar" variant. Wish me luck


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## mysiak

Hygrophila difformis and polysperma finally reacted positively to the regular fertilizing schedule and both are showing healthy new growth. Crypts are growing like crazy too, I prune the oldest leaves every week or two. Everything is just as I like it, big jungle with many hiding places.. 

Oh and I replaced the 11W UV tube with enclosed 3W Aquael sterilizator running on 24/7 schedule. I was worried about fish/shrimp exposing to the UV rays with the naked tube in the heater department of my big internal filter, so chose something safer. 3 watts are powerful enough to make the difference and I'm not worried to keep the bulb running nonstop.


----------



## mysiak

New tank mates for a breeding experiment with endler guppies (which are hybrids already). I wanted blue Moscow guppies, but LFS went out of stock with them for the time being. These are lovely as well and I got a good discount for bringing my Najas guadalupensis cuttings, so I'm happy..


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## zolteeC

Soon you will have 1000000000 new guppies. Is THAT really what you want?  (joking...)


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## mysiak

Actually..if they are going to be this nice, I wouldn't mind  I can still swap them for food, plants, sell them, or in the worst case - use them as feeder fish for cichlids. Although I realized that tank looks nicer with a bit bigger/more flashy fish, so I might eventually switch only to "standard" guppies. But at the moment I am more curious about what kind of hybrids they'll produce.

At the same time I hope that they won't breed with Limia, I want to keep Limia strain pure..


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## Patriot100%

Gorgeous guppies

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## mysiak

I am not really sure how I stumbled upon extremely interesting shrimp.. But I couldn't resist a very good offer once again. So please say hello to my new friends - Macrobrachium dayanum. I have 7 juveniles which unfortunately are not possible to sex yet. Hopefully I'll have more females than males (well, at least one pair would be nice).

Based on the scientific literature, their main diet consists of detritus, algae and in nature - dead fish. There are rumours that adults can catch and eat snails, sick or sleeping fish at the tank bottom, or some slow moving fry, especially if they are not fed enough with standard food (fish flakes etc.). Having about a hundred of live bearers at different age, I will probably welcome natural selection of the weakest (which I'm currently doing myself).

A couple of them darted right into the corner with about 1-1.5 inches thick layer of detritus and they really enjoy to sift through it.

Not mine pictures for today, but what would be an introduction without a picture..so just few from the internet (I highly recommend that you check one of the youtube videos with them, they are amazing) 

Juvenile (source)









Adult male









Comparison of "the usual dwarf shrimp" with the claw of an adult male









Another adult male, with the usual coloring (source)


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## dwalstad

Your guppies are very pretty. I hope they do well for you.

One thing about breeding hybrids. The Endlers carry their color genes on the male's Y chromosome, so if you want the Endler color, use the Endler males for your cross. Your guppy female, which is very nice BTW, will provide her finnage, because the delta tail gene dominates over swordtail genes. Not a 100% sure, but maybe 90% on this...


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## mysiak

Guppies are doing quite ok, though it seems that much more active Limias are biting their fins a little bit. These "too fancy" guppies with bigger fins are too slow for amazingly fast Limias who love to play/socialize, so it results in teared fins here and there. Endlers and less fancy guppies are better suited for them.

Unfortunately I have no control about who will be the father or mother. But I will be probably able to backtrack them based on your description  Well, if those shrimp won't eat all the fry and/or parents.. 

One enhanced night photo of the jungle (I really need to prune those crypts..)


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## mysiak

Just a few short (and shaky) videos.. 

hello there..


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## mysiak

Can you notice that I removed about half of the Cryptocorine leaves and bunch of other plants? 










Hello handsome


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## mysiak

Happy jungle.. 









Courtship


















Current alpha male in the front, but future one is entering the adulthood (in the back). Unlike other "common" livebearears, Limias have several different sizes of males and they mature at different age.


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## dwalstad

Your fish and shrimp look healthy and well-cared for. That's all that we lovers of nature could ask.

Should you ever want to get those Crypts under control, here's what I did. I pinched off the entire biomass above the substrate. I only did 10% pruning like this every month or so. It didn't hurt the tank, but it opened up some space and gave other plant species a chance.


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## zolteeC

dwalstad said:


> Your fish and shrimp look healthy and well-cared for. That's all that we lovers of nature could ask.
> 
> Should you ever want to get those Crypts under control, here's what I did. I pinched off the entire biomass above the substrate. I only did 10% pruning like this every month or so. It didn't hurt the tank, but it opened up some space and gave other plant species a chance.


I think those cryptos look awesome, though.

Dont get rid of them!


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## mysiak

No worries, I don't want to get rid of them.  I do regular trimming of the oldest/biggest leaves, which is a bit similar to the suggestion above - it gives an opportunity for growth to other plants (practically just to smaller crypts  ). But I leave at least 2-3 leaves on each plant so I won't kill it.


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> No worries, I don't want to get rid of them.  I do regular trimming of the oldest/biggest leaves, which is a bit similar to the suggestion above - it gives an opportunity for growth to other plants (practically just to smaller crypts  ). But I leave at least 2-3 leaves on each plant so I won't kill it.


I do have quite many smaller crypts in my tank, but I think your larger species look better... ... or maybe its just the typical "Neighbour's lawn is always greener" situation .


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## mysiak

They are very nice, just not creating the "carpeting" effect I was hoping for  I have also one small crypt (parva) which stayed small, but it grew maybe 10 leaves in almost 2 years, unbelievably slow grower. But fortunately my fish, shrimp and myself like the jungle, so no big deal..


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## mysiak

Macrobrachium dayanum shrimps are pure joy to watch. 2 biggest one are getting more/deeper colors and their pincers are turning grey from the bristles growing on them (looks like "furr"). Another big shrimp is keeping translucent color and smaller arms, so it most probably will be "she".

Smaller male (probably) with a fry of Limia in the background


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## dwalstad

Great photo of your shrimp.

Could you weigh in on JoanToBa's thread? Sounds like she needs some input on rescuing her shrimp and you seem like an expert.


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## mysiak

Thank you, I left my thoughts in the other thread, though I am no expert by any means. I am sharing a bit of my experience and what I read or heard from shrimp keepers.

My tanks contain mainly "trash" shrimp with dull colors, anything bright is easily picked by fish and eaten, so only natural/transparent colors have a chance to survive.


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## dwalstad

Thank you, Mysiak. I think we can all benefit from your input.

I had never thought about keeping less colorful shrimp with fish. Makes sense!


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## jochemspek

hi mysiak, just wanted to let you know that I greatly appreciate your updates and insights and really really nice pictures! thank you! ( I just started my own tank 3 days ago: )


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## mysiak

dwalstad said:


> Thank you, Mysiak. I think we can all benefit from your input.
> 
> I had never thought about keeping less colorful shrimp with fish. Makes sense!


Well, obviously I started with nice bright red shrimp.  For some time, my tank was littered with them up to the point that it didn't look nice. Then, over time, red ones slowly disappeared - I noticed that bigger fish were eating them here and there, either "by mistake" (during feeding time - wrong time, wrong place) or deliberately. At the same time, fish pretty much ignored less colorful shrimp so they repopulated the tank. I'm sure that fish still have a tasty snack out of shrimplets, but they are still able to keep a stable population. I'd say that I saw natural selection in action and why a good camouflage is so important in the real world. 



jochemspek said:


> hi mysiak, just wanted to let you know that I greatly appreciate your updates and insights and really really nice pictures! thank you! ( I just started my own tank 3 days ago: )


Thank you, I'm really glad that you like them, it keeps me motivated to continue with providing updates and photos


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> I'd say that I saw natural selection in action and why a good camouflage is so important in the real world.


Well, this story gets even more interesting! I'm impressed that you've kept these shrimp successfully long enough to observe an evolutionary progression.


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## mysiak

It's hard to tell in this jungle, but it seems that I see decreasing numbers of Endler's guppies. Several of them died due to old age. There is still fry to be seen, but somehow I miss the older fry or "pubescents". It's mostly young fry or adults. I used to give away a bag of females every couple of weeks (keeping only a very few adult females in the tank), but it's not needed anymore. I've heard a few times already, that despite the usual belief, guppies and many livebearers will not overpopulate the tank - once their number reaches certain number, they slow down/stop breeding. Could this be happening? It certainly doesn't look too crowded and it used to be "worse"..

On the other hand, Limia is supposedly missing this "fail safe" mechanism and they are able to almost literally fill up the tank. Limias have offspring of all ages, so maybe they're just more aggressive and winning the food battle..?

Am I observing some kind of population crash due to inbreeding? Or is it just because many old females died during the same period and there just isn't enough of adults females at the moment? In each case, interesting situation


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> livebearers will not overpopulate the tank - once their number reaches certain number, they slow down/stop breeding.


This is also something I think I noticed. Once there is quite many guppies in the tank, to me it appears their population stagnates. Also I noticed the same thing with RCS.

Maybe I am wrong, but this is how it occurs to me.


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## Michael

"I saw natural selection in action and why a good camouflage is so important in the real world."

This is exactly what happened in my tanks. All the shrimp are now translucent or brownish. They won't win any beauty contests, but they are hardy little devils!


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## mysiak

I'm glad that I'm not the only one experiecing/observing these not so often mentioned situations. 

Mentioning unusual situations - dominant Macrobrachium male is digging a hole in the substrate. The hole is in the dark corner and barely visible (impossible to take a photo  ), but by eye it's about 10-15cm wide and 3-5cm deep. Male is guarding this place and very often digging in there (probably removing gravel which naturally falls back). He doesn't care about small shrimp, they can be all over him (extremely interesting to see tiny shrimp climbing on huge clamps, unfortunately I wasn't fast enough to take a photo yet), but fights other Macrobrachium shrimp very vigorously. 

My pure guess would be that he's preparing a mating place, but I haven't seen an adult female yet (doesn't mean that she isn't there though). There isn't much information about Macrobrachium dayanum behavior available and so far no breeder mentioned it. Maybe I'll find out the reason sooner or later.. 

Edit: As mentioned in another topic. I've just realized, that since I added Macrobrachyum dayana shrimp to the tank, I don't see Cladophora algae anymore. And along with the algae disappearance, I don't see Stringy moss and Flame moss too.. Used to throw out a handful of moss very often


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## mysiak

I just love MTS snails, they are an extremely efficient indicator of a clogged filter. When you see a bunch of them climbing the glass in the middle of the day, you know for sure it's a really good idea to clean the filter ASAP.


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## DutchMuch

mysiak said:


> I just love MTS snails, they are an extremely efficient indicator of a clogged filter. When you see a bunch of them climbing the glass in the middle of the day, you know for sure it's a really good idea to clean the filter ASAP.


Screw substrate just have MTS?

dear Gosh thats a lot.

I was a long time ago debating getting them glad i didnt haha


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## zolteeC

Uh, that's a lot of snail. I don't mine some in my NPTs, but that would be way too much for me!


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## mysiak

Well, it is the "feeding corner" for shrimp, I am throwing sinking pellets in there so they like to concentrate there too. But snails are usually well hidden in the substrate, coming out only during night or when there is an issue with the filter (extremely slow flow). Photo was just to illustrate what happens when they don't like what's going on in the tank. Situation wasn't that bad in the rest of the tank 

I never had an issue with them, they don't grow to their adult size very often probably due to lack of food. That doesn't prevent them to breed though. 

I always put MTS in my tanks, they eat any leftover food, dead fish, dead snails, algae, dead leaves, junk.. Burrow through the substrate so it doesn't get anaerobic. I can't think of a single bad thing they do.


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## hoppycalif

mysiak said:


> I always put MTS in my tanks, they eat any leftover food, dead fish, dead snails, algae, dead leaves, junk.. Burrow through the substrate so it doesn't get anaerobic. I can't think of a single bad thing they do.


Some people say they leave their discarded homes laying everywhere! Some one needs to tell them about the benefits of recycling.


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## mistergreen

hoppycalif said:


> Some people say they leave their discarded homes laying everywhere! Some one needs to tell them about the benefits of recycling.


Source of calcium & pH buffer.

Also if you have puffer fish or botia, snails are a great food.


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## mysiak

I'm sure that MTS do recycle their shells, they are just much thicker than ramshorns' for example, so it takes longer. On the other side, MTS shells with brown color blend very nicely with the substrate. This can't be said about snow white shells of ramshorn snails.

The very same corner after filter cleaning. 









Ramshorn cemetery (no idea why they go here to die)









And I finally saw a Macrobrachium female! On the photo with her small friend


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## mysiak

Maybe she's berried after all..?


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## zolteeC

Great photos!


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## mysiak

Alpha male, despite the fact that he's the king of the tank, he's either hiding or digging/guarding his place 99% of the time.

Interesting fact - the second/third males in hierarchy have much richer and uniform chocolate color than the alpha, but also much smaller pincers. I'm curious if alpha's still maturing and he gets the same dark brown color eventually.

It is being said that they love to munch on snails, but so far I didn't observe this behavior. They do not show any interest in bladder or ramshorn snails, at least the bigger ones. Also it seems that fish learned to avoid them, I see no new signs of pincers-fins encounters.

Please excuse the algae/dying leaves, I skipped one weekly trimming and the next one is 2 days away


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## mysiak

It seems that I was experiencing a small columnaris outbreak, not sure what triggered it but I lost a couple of fish. I removed huge anubias plants from the tank a couple of days prior, but not sure if this could be related. Anyway, once I replaced my small 3W UV filter with 11W unit and added Esha Exit + spot treating with H2O2 a few times, disease stopped spreading and most of the sick fish fully recovered or are at least looking much better. Going to order another UV as a backup.

Otherwise no big change, Sagittaria grew a tiny bit, but the tank corners are still quite empty, rooting plants do not like it there for some reason.



















Not all encounters are friendly  Shrimp usually do not hunt actively, but fish are less cautious during feeding, so shrimp sometimes take advantage of the opportunity.


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## FromReefs2Plants

i love your tank .

do you know of any foreground plants that do well in your experience in this kind of tank?

So far the plants I have added get rather large.


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## mysiak

Thanks! 

In this tank I don't have much luck with "carpeting" plants. I would consider mainly these easy going foreground plants (they grew fine in my nano tanks).

- Cryptocoryne parva - one of the smallest crypts, looks nice, should be able to form a compact carpet. Very slow grower, like really, really slow. 
- Dwarf sag - can get to the point of being "invasive", very fast growing, sometimes it starts growing very long leaves. Can be mown like lawn though, unlike Vallisneria species.
- Helanthium 'Quadricostatus' - very similar to Dwarf sag, maybe a tad less invasive and leaves have more or less consistent length. Can be cut with no ill effect too. 

The "usual" Echinodorus and Cryptocoryne species get quite big over time, but I'm sure that there are some other compact varieties out there, just don't know which exactly.


----------



## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> It seems that I was experiencing a small columnaris outbreak, not sure what triggered it but I lost a couple of fish. I removed huge anubias plants from the tank a couple of days prior, but not sure if this could be related. Anyway, once I replaced my small 3W UV filter with 11W unit and added Esha Exit + spot treating with H2O2 a few times, disease stopped spreading and most of the sick fish fully recovered or are at least looking much better. Going to order another UV as a backup.
> Not all encounters are friendly  Shrimp usually do not hunt actively, but fish are less cautious during feeding, so shrimp sometimes take advantage of the opportunity.


I didn't know that shrimp ate baby fish. Outstanding pictorial evidence!

It looks to me like your tank has numerous fish in a closed, inbreeding population. The fish and shrimp may become increasingly disease susceptible (due to inbreeding depression) or they may become more resistant due to the enhanced survival of more disease-resistant individuals. According to my genetics textbook*, it could go either way. Certainly, the UV will help matters.

Overall, it looks like an interesting biological study. 

*_Conservation and the Genetics of Population_s (2nd Ed.) F.W. Allendorf et al. 2013.


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## mysiak

Macrobrachium shrimp eat anything, in nature their primary diet consists of dead/sick fish and detritus, but in a closed environment they don't have issues catching slower fish fry or even adult dwarf shrimp. Long fins of adult fish are sometimes a tasty snack as well, but these grow back. 

Genetics is a very interesting topic, I read somewhere (can't recall where) that fish are not so susceptible to inbreeding as more complex animals. At least if we do not try to selectively breed for a color or fin shape, but let the natural selection take its course. With no selective breeding, fish population should be stable for a very long time. Culling of sick/deformed fish might help too.

What gives me hope is that I know about an aquarist who took a bunch of guppies from the wild (extremely rare sight in my country, possible only due to warm waste water coming from a nearby factory) about 10 or more years ago. He still has a healthy population of these guppies. Another example would be the small pond with spring water which I mentioned in another topic. Also many populations of rare livebearers in Europe started from just a very few importe fish and often it's not possible to renew their genetic fond as these fish are extinct in the wild and all fish are basically siblings now. 

So far it looks that the fancier the fish is, the more susceptible to disease it becomes. I have quite good success with "wild" Limias and less fancy Endlers. Gorgeous guppies or even platy fish with amazing colors and fins usually die very quickly, so I don't buy them anymore. 

But of course I'm counting also with the other possibility, that everything will go downhill eventually and I'll have to restart my fish population.

All in all, as you said, an interesting biological study..


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## DutchMuch

Haven't checked this journal in a Long time, its looking great mysiak keep up the fantastic work.

Great images to.


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> So far it looks that the fancier the fish is, the more susceptible to disease it becomes. I have quite good success with "wild" Limias and less fancy Endlers. Gorgeous guppies or even platy fish with amazing colors and fins usually die very quickly, so I don't buy them anymore.
> 
> But of course I'm counting also with the other possibility, that everything will go downhill eventually and I'll have to restart my fish population.
> 
> All in all, as you said, an interesting biological study..


Thanks for your feedback and information. You are right that many animal populations do "okay" with long-term inbreeding. Many variables; lots of leeway. I'm still studying this and learning...  Goal is to increase the longevity of my beautiful Blue Grass guppies. Males were dying at 4-5 months and females within 8 months. So I crossed top quality Blue Grass females with male swordtails, which have a reputation for longevity. Picture is of a breeder male resulting from crossing a Japan Blue lyretail with a Blue Grass female. He'll be one year old in 3 days! He's doing fine and sired a bunch of babies for me last month. (I did have to trim his tail so he could keep up with the female.) Attached is picture of another swordtail X Blue Grass cross at 7 mos. that I have high hopes for. IMHO, I see no reason why a guppy can't be beautiful AND have a decent lifespan.


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## mysiak

I am sure that it is possible to have nice, healthy and long living guppies (or platy etc.), but I'm afraid that commercial breeders just don't care about the later 2 attributes. The usual amateur breeders probably concentrate on the looks as well. You are the first one I know about who tries to improve not only the look, but also their lifespan.

Your guppies are really beautiful, I wish I had a chance to buy them.


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## dwalstad

Thanks for feedback! Within next few months, I hope to post article about guppy longevity/survival on my website. (Will post notification here on APC.) 

I suspect that there are a few responsible hobbyist breeders who do breed for longevity, but they just don't advertise the fact.


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## aquabillpers

This is a bit off topic, but it's close - it's about inbreeding.

I know that excessive inbreeding can weaken populations. Serious breeders like Ms. Walstad work hard to keep their strains healthy.

But I've always wondered why my live food cultures continue to do well after years without any new blood. My daphnia and various nematodes have gone through thousands of generations without apparent problems.

Large numbers of these animals are kept together. Could it be that there is enough variance among the "cousins" to keep the gene pool healthy? 

Bill


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## mysiak

Couldn't be the key to healthy inbred population by NOT doing any kind of selective breeding? I would say that once you start selecting and breeding Daphnia with for example only red color, it would eventually lead to a population crash. When we are not trying to achieve some specific color/shape/whatever, there is enough diversity to keep population healthy. Just an idea..


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## David_L

Beautiful jungle! Haven't ever tried the spirulina tablets you showcase and I admit to being intrigued! A cursory amazon search found human supplements for the keto diet and a bottle for aquarium stock that was poorly reviewed. Do you have a brand recommendation?


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> Couldn't be the key to healthy inbred population by NOT doing any kind of selective breeding? I would say that once you start selecting and breeding Daphnia with for example only red color, it would eventually lead to a population crash. When we are not trying to achieve some specific color/shape/whatever, there is enough diversity to keep population healthy. Just an idea..


If the population is large enough, it is less likely to suffer from inbreeding. I think you can select for traits--including longevity--but it should be done very carefully and tempered with occasional outcrossing.

Also, you can have an inbred guppies or live food cultures that do fine under ideal housing and culture conditions. However, the organisms might not have enough genetic variation to adapt to a more stressful environment or with new food, the presence of potential pathogens, etc.

Tricky subject!


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## mistergreen

Those desert pool pupfish are inbreed for thousands of years. They seems to have worked it out.


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## hoppycalif

mistergreen said:


> Those desert pool pupfish are inbreed for thousands of years. They seems to have worked it out.


Natural selection, evolution, means those who have the best breeding opportunities pass along their genes. Those pupfish are probably an example of this, and who knows how many thousands of them who were not favored in breeding didn't survive to test their luck?


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## mistergreen

I think it's Devil's Hole pupfish, Nevada. There are only about 100 of them a season. A small population but they figured it out. They only live for a season also.

We inbreed fish for aesthetic. They inbreed for survival. Of course, if there were a sudden change to their environment, they can't adapt and die off because of little genetic diversity.


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## dwalstad

I'm thinking of a major 5 year experiment with salmon/trout.* An inbred (full-sibling mating) group and a control group (not inbred) were raised in a hatchery in Alaska. (The study fish were all F2 descendants from wild-caught fish.) Over the course of the 5 year experiment, no consistent difference was found in the two groups for survival or growth in the hatchery. However, when fish from the two groups were released into the marine wild, there was a huge difference. Survival in the ocean--measured for 5 separate brood years on return migrating fish--was considerably less each year for the inbred fish. The overall average survival for the 5 brood years was 71% _less_ for the inbred group as compared to the control group (P<0.001).

The harmful effects of inbreeding are subtle and get mixed up with environmental factors so people don't see its impact until it becomes severe and obvious (e.g., deformities). The abnormally short lifespan of my Blue Grass strain of guppies is what got me going on this topic. Scientists trying to save endangered species are confirming _via their experiments_ that inbreeding depression is just about everywhere.

*The trout/salmonoid study by Thrower and Hart (2009) is described in my Allendorf textbook on page 262. Allendorf FW, Luikart G and SN Aitken. 2013. Conservation and the Genetics of Populations. Wiley-Blackwell Publishers (West Sussex, UK). 602 pp.


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## adalah

Lovely tank!good job bro...


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## mysiak

Very interesting information @dwalstad, thank you for sharing it. I will try to "renew" the genetics fond once in a while with new fish from different sources. It shouldn't be a problem with Guppies, but might get a little challenging with Limia and Neoheterandria fish as these are far less popular in the hobby and many populations come from the same source. Until then I'll try at least to keep the environment as stable and healthy as possible, so the existing "weakened" population doesn't get unnecessarily stressed.

Just thinking about it - this type of inbreeding might explain why sometimes otherwise healthy looking fish (mainly fancy livebearers) from LFS die very quickly when in a new environment. Some of their fry usually survive and reach adulthood, but in far less numbers than one could expect.

@adalah - thanks! 

On a side note, I'm still fascinated with Macrobrachium shrimp. Their regeneration abilities are simply amazing. A few weeks ago this particular shrimp lost its arm, probably in a fight with another male. And it is already growing back, as you can hopefully see in this photo


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## dwalstad

Another great picture! It must be nice to regenerate.


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## mysiak

New toy in the house - once again..  I was using an air pump to gently aerate the water as fish sometimes gasped at the surface in the morning (not much, but I had a feeling that I should do something about it). Despite using "the most silent" air pump on the EU market (Schego) on almost minimum power, I could still hear the humming noise, especially during night (I'm quite sensitive to such noises). So I pulled the trigger and bought a piezo-electric air pump from China. These are dead silent, the only noise one can hear are bubbles coming from an air stone. Piezo-electric pumps are no where near as powerful as the usual diaphragm ones, but if you don't need a huge amount of air it's not an issue. I have no idea how long is it going to last as per the specifications it's not recommended to use piezo-electric motors continuously, but maybe manufacturer of the air pump found a solution to this problem (lower voltage for example). Overall I am extremely happy with the purchase and highly recommend it to anyone in the similar situation.


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## mysiak

Yet another photo/update, nothing special happening. I am trying to thin the numbers of endler guppies, especially females (recently I removed about 40), but it's hard to catch them in this jungle. I want to keep males, but I have to wait until fry gets old enough so I can clearly spot them and until then another drop of fry appears. Endless cycle.. 

I still haven't decided what I'm going to do with Limias as they started to breed, well, like livebearers.  Either sell most of the fry, or keep them and test their behavior and capacity of the tank for a big colony. I'm curious if they really lack the gene/instinct for not breeding in overstocked conditions as it's being said about them. Though not sure that I want to risk the consequences.. 

Sometimes it's already a bit crowded, especially during feeding or when they come to greet me ("beg for food")..


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## DutchMuch

looks beautiful


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## dwalstad

That's a lot of fish! One reason you have such fantastic plant growth is that you have such a well-stocked tank. All those little animals pumping out CO2 and nutrients that plants need... 

Thanks for keeping us posted.


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## zolteeC

dwalstad said:


> That's a lot of fish! One reason you have such fantastic plant growth is that you have such a well-stocked tank. All those little animals pumping out CO2 and nutrients that plants need...


... and its quite an "old" tank. If I got right, it is almost 3 years old. @mysiak, is that correct?
If yes, probably the soil is not contributing much CO2 any longer, still, plants are in great condition.


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## mysiak

Per the usual rules I'm stocked at ~150-200% of the tank capacity, but plants are able to absorb pretty much all the waste and provide enough shelter for the fish. Without them I would certainly witness an ecosystem crash. I have a plenty of filtration media in the inbuilt filter "just in case", but it probably doesn't do much in terms of biological filtration. It doesn't hurt though, so I'm following the golden rule "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Tank will be 3 years old soon and I'm quite sure that soil (or better said substrate or "almost soil") has been already depleted some time ago as I have to dose root tabs every few months and liquid micro ferts every week. Maybe if I used the usually recommended amount of gardening soil it would be still providing CO2 and/or nutrients, but I didn't known about this method back then. It is next to impossible to siphon out the detritus from the Crypts jungle, so a layer of decomposing waste might contribute to slightly higher CO2 levels. I even see some plants pearling in the evening (though not sure if it counts as bubbles form mainly on cut stems or physically damaged leaves). Nice sight nevertheless 

Btw. Limia females have a very interesting strategy how to hide from never resting males. They literally dart into the thickest growth of plants and then stay still in whatever position they end (even upside down). This scared me many times as I thought they're stuck and/or dead, until I realized that they are just hiding and can swim away if they wish to. Males must have some kind of 6th sense as they often find them and try to breed anyway


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## aquabillpers

zolteeC said:


> ... and its quite an "old" tank. If I got right, it is almost 3 years old. @mysiak, is that correct?
> If yes, probably the soil is not contributing much CO2 any longer, still, plants are in great condition.


My main tank has been set up for about 10 years with the same substrate. For years the nutrients come from the air and the many fish that reside in it.

Bill


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## mysiak

Currently I stopped adding substrate fertilizer, for a couple of reasons:
- it's next to impossible to add anything to the crypts jungle, there just isn't enough free space between plants and I would have to damage them
- Macrobrachium shrimps are digging big holes in the substrate, revealing fertilizer sticks. I saw a few beads of Osmocote laying above the substrate, fortunately exhausted a long time ago
- it seems that plants are growing fine with ferts in the water and fish waste. Certainly not so fast growing, bud growing nevertheless.

It is hard to capture a hole in the substrate in a photo, but this is how a couple of centimeters deep and about 10-15cm wide hole looks like. So far I saw two such holes in the opposite corners of the tank. It is almost constantly occupied by males, though I'm not sure if always by the same ones.


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## mysiak

I was aware of the predatory nature of Macrobrachium dayanum shrimp and I don't mind them eating fish fry here and there, but they could stop with mutilation of adult fish.. This poor guy lost his caudal and dorsal fins and god bruises all over him. Fortunately it happens rarely and otherwise healthy fish usually fully recover within few weeks, but it's not a nice sight nevertheless. I probably need to increase the amount of food as fish are so fast that they don't leave much for other inhabitants and hungry alpha males of any predator aren't best friends with potential prey.

In each case, I don't understand how do these shrimp do it - their clamps are not long enough to cut through an adult fish in one slash, so fish must be fighting back and should get away with less severe injury. Well, unless I install a night vision camera, this will remain a mystery to me as these incidents happen almost solely during night.

Hope you don't mind a bit "drastic" photo, I can remove it if it's not appropriate.


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## mysiak

Same fish two weeks later, active as ever, almost impossible to take a photo which isn't totally blurry. Fins grew back approximately to 80%.










And one blurry photo of juvie Macrobrachium, about 3-4cm big. Who knows how many siblings are hiding in the tank..


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## dwalstad

Who knows what goes on at night in a tank!

Glad the fins grew back on your fish.


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## mysiak

I guess that at night it's a battleground, shrimp attacking sleeping/weak fish, and also each other. 

Even predatory shrimp enjoy picking over Pistia roots









And yet another photo of the jungle after trimming.


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## mysiak

Today I found another adult Limia male with damaged fins, so I finally said "enough" and removed all Macrobrachium shrimp which I could catch. I still see one berried female hiding in the tank, but otherwise all adult shrimp have been rehomed (Cichlids were quite happy from exclusive and a bit expensive dinner). There might be a few young shrimp left behind, but those should not present any risk to the fish (yet). I will be keeping an eye on them and remove any whenever I get a chance. There goes the so-called compatibility of Macrobrachium shrimp with fish in a community tank..

Otherwise no news, it's still a jungle in there..


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> Otherwise no news, it's still a jungle in there..


Yes, indeed!


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## GadgetGirl

This has @dwalstad name all over it!  Looks gorgeous!


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> Today I found another adult Limia male with damaged fins, so I finally said "enough" and removed all Macrobrachium shrimp which I could catch. I still see one berried female hiding in the tank, but otherwise all adult shrimp have been rehomed (Cichlids were quite happy from exclusive and a bit expensive dinner). There might be a few young shrimp left behind, but those should not present any risk to the fish (yet). I will be keeping an eye on them and remove any whenever I get a chance. There goes the so-called compatibility of Macrobrachium shrimp with fish in a community tank..
> 
> Otherwise no news, it's still a jungle in there..


You've got quite some FAT guppies there!
This tank is definitely no failure.
@mysiak, do you make any failures with tanks, or anything you touch becomes a thriving ecosystem?


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## mysiak

You are probably referring to Limia perugiae females as I don't have guppies in the tank (only Endlers which are quite small). Limia females resemble guppies on the first sight (especially in a blurry photo  ), but are a different genus. Size and behavior wise they're probably more related to Molly fish. Under certain circumstances they can produce hybrids with Molly (and maybe even Guppies), but it should not happen until they're "forced" to such crossings.

And thank you for your kind words, I guess I've been lucky so far. Even if my tanks won't win any beauty contest as I'm not really into the "aquascaping", but rather trying to mimic the natural jungle (even if I mix geographically "incorrect" fish/plant species together). "The book" helped me tremendously to understand how things work in a tank, so it's much easier to take an appropriate corrective action if needed.

A bit better older photos of Limia female and male (I need to take new photos as fish grew since then). Dominant males have a majestic dorsal fin which they use to impress a rather dull looking females.


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## mysiak

Short video of the tank and fish. They hang in the left corner whenever they see me as this is the usual feeding spot


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> You are probably referring to Limia perugiae females as I don't have guppies in the tank (only Endlers which are quite small). Limia females resemble guppies on the first sight (especially in a blurry photo  ), but are a different genus.


Yes, my bad, to my untrained eye they looked like female guppies, but now I see they are not.


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## mysiak

I'm giving the Purigen a second chance (or third or fourth?). Crystal clear water is just so tempting..  Plants are still thriving, even though I need to dose liquid ferts two times a week. I'm toying with an idea about using some kind of automatic dosage system to dose 1ml per day. So far I consider Eheim Liquid Doser and Sochting dosator, but not really sure that they will work as I expect.

Tank is quite crowded, Limia perugiae are very active and breeding nicely, up to the point that they to seem to outcompete much smaller Endler's guppies which are slowly disappearing. I planned on replacing them with some bigger fish species anyway (wild or unusually colored platy).

I got rid of all adult Macrobrachium shrimp (except for one berried female which is hiding very well), but youngsters started to emerge from the jungle. So far I counted about 10 which I'll need to catch soon.

One picture after trimming:









Video of feeding frenzy 





And attempt for an embedded video - not sure if it works for anyone, I see just an error message about missing flash.


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## mysiak

As discussed in a separate topic, experiment with Purigen hasn't been successful. Plants suffered from malnutrition and it took them about 2-3 weeks to recover. I definitely won't use Purigen again, but I'm still tempted to use selective ion exchange resin, mainly out of curiosity if it has the same negative impact as Purigen.

Endler guppies are slowly disappearing and being replaced by Limia perugiae. Adult Endlers males are dying out (their lifespan is only about a year), females either don't have much fry or Limias eat them. It seems that I'm hitting the maximum number of fish which can be sustained in this tank and only the strongest survive into the adulthood. As an experiment I'm planning to add a few Platy fish, I'm curious if they'll breed successfully or I'm really maxed out.


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## FromReefs2Plants

I love that our tanks are similar sizes (47g vs 55g) and we took very different fish approaches.

You are adding platys and I will be adding 5x more rainbowfish. We will both discover if we have space or not


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## mysiak

Hm, now when you mention rainbowfish I realized that they've been on my "to buy" list for some time, but livebearers are positioned just a bit higher in the list.  I'm not really sure what exactly attracts me to them.. Anyway, obtaining blue platy (my daughter chose blue Mickey Mouse high fin variety) is harder task than anticipated, but hopefully I'll have a small colony soon. Sadly, wild platy fish seem to be out of reach for me.

Once I'm able to have (another) bigger tank, I will definitely buy a school of rainbow fish, they are really lovely to watch at my LFS.


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## mysiak

I'm doing a filter cleaning about every 4-5 weeks - which corresponds to a visible drop in the water output flow rate. I am already 2 weeks behind the schedule and to my surprise, plants are growing a lot faster and healthier. Floating plants show (probably) micro nutrients deficiency again, so I assume that submerged plants uptake more nutrients than before and floaters are the first one to show it. Recently there was a discussion about using cooked rice in filters to raise CO2 levels, especially once the soil gets "depleted" of organics. It seems that "dirty" filter might serve a similar purpose, even if in less controlled way. Except the pre-filter, I am going to keep the filter uncleaned until my bio-indicator (MTS snails) or NO3 tests tells me otherwise. As a safety measure I run an air bubbler 24/7 and Sochting Oxydator so fish and bacteria won't suffer with lack of oxygen.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure why it surprised me, more detritus = more bacteria = more CO2.. Heavily planted natural tanks really seem to be doing better with a bit of neglect.


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> Thinking about it, I'm not sure why it surprised me, more detritus = more bacteria = more CO2.. Heavily planted natural tanks really seem to be doing better with a bit of neglect.


I kind of agree. When you clean the filter frequently, you may remove plenty of organic matter that could have a chance to produce CO2 as oxygenated water flows through it. I have some tanks with no filter at all with tiny fish and shrimps and so far I did not see any back draw.

Your tank is definitely heavily planted. In the beginning, fresh soil was probably a good source of CO2, but as time goes on, your tank may need more organic matter input -especially if you clean the filter frequently - to keep the CO2 level reasonable for such a high plant mass.

On the other hand, your tank also has got tons of fish. They are relatively small, but numbers do add up. I am guessing that this is also a non-neglectable source of CO2 as probably you need to feed quite a good amount. Also keep an eye on aeration and water flow. If you are lucky enough to have higher CO2 level in the water than the air-water equilibrium (which is only around 0.5 ppm), then water stirring just removes CO2 from the tank.

Regarding to the floating plants, you may consider using some cheap liquid ferts, there are ones that contain K + micro.


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## mysiak

I might be removing CO2 by the bubbler, but to be honest I like to play it safe. I'd rather have plants growing at a slightly lower rate than suffocating the fish. If I was able to monitor the tank 24/7 I'd risk it, but with the current options I find this as a good compromise.

About the fertilizer - I use Seachem flourish with a dosing pump. Price per one dose is lower than other fertilizers and high concentration makes it easy to dose (2 ml per day currently). Also what's very important, it doesn't need shaking before use unlike others, so it's not really possible to over/underdose the tank. DIY would be definitely cheaper, but I like the convenience and consistency of commercial products 

Aaand..I finally got platy fish my daughter was dreaming about  Out of 10 ordered there are only 2 females, so hopefully they won't get harassed too much. When I received them they were in a really bad shape (stressed, strapped fins etc.), but after few days they almost fully recovered. Live food (grindal worms) surely helped.

The tank is by the standard rules definitely overstocked, but Limias enjoy it. They do better in higher numbers and don't show any sign of stress or discomfort. Sadly this can't be said about Endler guppies, they are being "pushed away" by much more vigorous (and bigger) Limias. Platy fish seem to be better partners, they are just a bit less energetic than Limias and not that much smaller either.

All in all, I'm still curious how this will end (ecosystem crash or population self control).

One short video, Platy fish are freshly added, so they're a bit disoriented  Btw. in 2D video the number of fish looks much worse than in reality - they are scattered all over the tank (well, except when they see me, in such case they all gather in the "feeding corner").


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## mysiak

Small change in the tank setup - I am using the air stone only during night. I believe that it increases available CO2 for plants as floaters start showing micro nutrients deficiency again - I will need to adjust the fertilization schedule. I still remove a small bucket of plants every week or two and fish slowly stabilize their numbers - there is considerably less fry swimming around. Otherwise no change, still a jungle.. 

Not sure why I bother taking photos, they are almost identical even if several weeks or months apart


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## dwalstad

Always nice to see a photo of your tank!


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## mysiak

Thanks! 

Yet another jungle photo and "behind the curtains" photos of my air condition system (two fans, left one forces warm air around the cabinet and cools the led light, the second one on the right draws hot humid air out of the tank - a friend of mine laser cut me a custom designed acrylic airflow "thingy"). You can see also my new addition - quite fresh Pothos plant cutting with its own light. The plastic box under the light with floating plants is temporary storage until I move them to their new home.

After I saw how big positive impact the cuttlebone had in my nano tank, I decided to add it also to this one as a preventive measure. Also I decided to push fertilization root sticks into the crypts jungle again, remaining Echinodorus which I though is dead almost immediately sprout a new leave. I guess I'll need to be more diligent with substrate fertilization. Liquid ferts and detritus somehow can't keep up with Cryptocorine demands, despite very heavy stocking and (over)feeding.










I finally found an use case for the wide angle lens on my phone (hence the distortion) 



























And one photo of my floating plants section of the tank. Red root floater which is directly under the light (light fixture not visible on the photo) has nice red/brown hues.


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## mysiak

Small change in the setup - I didn't like big bubbles which air stone produces (they splash too much and cause stem plants to float), so I reinstalled the venturi air diffuser on the filter output - it creates a lot of tiny bubbles which don't splash much water above the surface and get around the whole tank. By the working principle it increases the water flow strength as well. I'm not sure if it's the extra flow or air (CO2?), but some plants which were almost on the verge of dying out (Gymnocoronis spilanthoides) are spreading out really successfully now. Sometimes I need to prune not once, but twice a week.

Also I see a lot of shrimp with "saddles", which I did not notice before. It is probably either due to addition of extra oxygen to the water or positive effect of cuttlefish bone (or both). In each case, I'm happy with results. 

And yet another photo of my nonstandard tank


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## jatcar95

Does that mean if you bubble in small enough bubbles, it would actually increase the CO2 in the water? Or will it always increase degassing of CO2 (unless you're bubbling CO2, obviously)?


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## zolteeC

jatcar95 said:


> Does that mean if you bubble in small enough bubbles, it would actually increase the CO2 in the water? Or will it always increase degassing of CO2 (unless you're bubbling CO2, obviously)?


The air-water CO2 equilibrium is around ~0.5 ppm at 24C. If the water CO2 content is below this level, then CO2 will dissolve into the water from the air. If the CO2 level is above the equilibrium, then CO2 will de-gas from the water to the air. Generally water stirring will speed up this process. O2 dissolves faster than CO2 in water and also O2 equilibrium level is much, much higher (8-9 ppm). If there is enough O2 in the water and other needs of bacteria etc are met, then they can also produce CO2 in the tank.

The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium book contains a chart of typical CO2 level in a NPT during the photoperiod. When lights are turned on in the morning, the water CO2 level is typically much, much higher than the equilibrium level (the chart shows 5-10 ppm CO2 in the morning if I recall right. Please double check.) . This example indicates to me that water stirring will likely reduce the CO2 content of the water under such conditions.

Think about it. 0.5 ppm is really not that much. C is the macro nutrient that plants need in the largest amount to grow. Estimative Index with CO2 dosing goes for a constant (which is quite impossible to maintain imho) ~30 ppm which is 60x higher!

@Mysiak's tank also contains tons of fish. With such a high fish load, it is especially important that O2 level does not drop below a critical level. During the photoperiod, plants may produce O2 from CO2, but not at night.
I have quite a few NPT tanks with much fewer fish than Mysiak's tank and I have never ever seen fish gasping for air even if I did not have any air stones or any water stirring (i.e filter).


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## mistergreen

Water movement in the tank help distribute CO2 and nutrients around for plants. Plants have a harder time absorbing CO2 in water than in air because gas diffusion is slow in water (slow kinetic energy)... So, water movement help the diffusion rate. Usually a higher CO2 concentration helps.


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## zolteeC

mistergreen said:


> Water movement in the tank help distribute CO2 and nutrients around for plants. Plants have a harder time absorbing CO2 in water than in air because gas diffusion is slow in water (slow kinetic energy)... So, water movement help the diffusion rate. Usually a higher CO2 concentration helps.


This is all true, but really the question is to me how water stirring and air stone impacts the conditions in the tank for plants and inhabitants. I guess it's rather obvious, if O2 levels are too low for the fish, then stirring or air stone or some other means of increasing O2 level in water is absolutely needed. 
I don't quite know the physics of air bubbles and air stones, my guess is air bubbles introduce some water stirring and also increase the water-air surface (due to the surface of the air bubbles). The gas pressure of the air bubbles is approx 1 atm (tanks are not too deep) and bubbles contain the same gases as air (O2, N2, CO2, ...). 
Let's say we have a healthy NPT where CO2 level is -say- 8 ppm at the end of the dark period. This is 16x higher than equilibrium level! O2 levels are reasonable for fish during all times. When light turns on, plants will consume this CO2 in couple of hours. My thinking is, that if we're increasing stirring significantly in this tank then it is possible that we will not reach the healthy 8 ppm CO2 level in the morning but much lower level thus plant growth may be limited.
I have quite some NPTs with no water stirring nor air stones. Plants are growing well and fish are happy. However, I think Mysiak's tank in this topic differs quite a bit from my tanks due to the heavy fish load.


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## mysiak

My thinking and observations in this tank are:

a) no extra aeriation - plants and fish produce so much CO2 during night, that fish are gasping for air during night and a few hours in the morning. Extra CO2 is consumed by plants quickly during main photosynthesis period. After that, CO2 is provided mostly by fish/bacteria, which by observation isn't enough. 

b) aeriation only during night - fish show no discomfort during night or day, but plants do not have any extra CO2 boost in the morning.

c) 24/7 aeriation - fish are completely fine. Plants have stable, albeit small, concentration of CO2 at any time and with better distribution due to increased flow.

I want to avoid obvious fish discomfort, so a) is out of the question. With proper equipment, I could schedule night aeriation adequately to provide extra CO2 for plants, yet safe environment for fish. But as I do not have the abilities, b) is out as well. Option c) is IMHO a safe bet where nothing can go wrong - plenty of O2, "just enough" of CO2 24/7. 

But again, I am speaking strictly about this "well stocked" tank with many fish and plants.

Btw. standard air stone works mainly by disrupting the water surface and a bit of extra water movement. Venturi air diffuser produces much smaller bubbles which stay in the water column much longer, which at least in theory, helps with gas exchange.


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## zolteeC

I am wondering why case b) is not an option in this tank. Since your tank is "well stocked", when lights are turned off, probably fish start to consume "too much" O2 and O2 levels get depleted without air stone (or other means of increacing O2 level). Probably at the end of the light period your O2 may even be above the equilibrium (which is approx ~8 ppm) because of plants. I saw a study which stated that Zebra Danio fish was happy with O2 level above say ~3 ppm. So you could start an air stone or a bit of water stirring after the lights go off. When exactly? I don't know. How much? I don't know.
There must be "enough" water stirring or air bubbles to be always on the safe side when it comes to possibly low O2 level. However, every time your CO2 level is above the equilibrium, water stirring or air stones will speed up de-gassing and the degassed CO2 will be lost for the plants to potentially use. (I guess your tank has more CO2 than the equilibrium most of the time. After all it has soil, lots of fish and good fish food input. I guess only when plants use up CO2 due to heavy photosynthesis you have less than .5 ppm CO2.) 
I've read somewhere that O2 dissolves in water faster than CO2 from air which may be a good news for fish. 

Anyway, I kind of agree with "Don't touch if it works", and your tank definitely looks like it works fine!
All I wrote above is top of my head and may be wrong or its also possible that I do not remember the numbers correctly. So please double check everything before you take it too seriously .


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## mysiak

b) is an option and it works more or less fine, just that it doesn't provide much of an advantage over c), especially if I run the air stone in inverse schedule to lights. To really make it ideal, I would need an O2 and CO2 monitoring system to safely judge the best schedule for running an air stone. Basically I would like to start the air pump whenever levels of O2 or CO2 decrease below given threshold (be it during night or day). It sounds like a very interesting and fun project, but involved costs makes it prohibitive for me. 

Btw. venturi diffuser can't be easily switched on/off automatically. I used to use solenoid valve to cut the air intake, but I found it not very reliable and I didn't like the power consumption/heat generation, so I returned to "keep it simple" solution - running it always.


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## mistergreen

CO2 loves water and prefer to bond with H2O. You can introduce O2 without displacing CO2. You can degas CO2 with turbulent water SURFACE agitation but I usually do water movement, not surface agitation.


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## mysiak

I am running the filter with output nozzle directed towards surface, so it is agitated (I see small ripples), but it isn't enough to provide oxygen for fish during night (fish gasping in the morning). Once or twice I neglected filter cleaning and it slowed the flow significantly - up to the point that trumpet snails started mass exodus, which I assume was due to lack of oxygen (I wasn't running an air stone or diffuser at that time). I learned my lesson and I look out for early signs of low oxygen and always try to prevent oxygen depletion. It hasn't happened ever since.

Btw. my second nano tank runs fine without an air stone with hardly any surface agitation, I even turn off the filter during night.


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## mysiak

zolteeC motivated me to try option b) again.  I found a way how to run venturi diffuser on a schedule (with the help of an air pump), so I will start the bubbling one hour before lights turn off and stop it when lights turn on. I have a very gradual sunrise/sunset timer running, so there will be at least 1-2 hour window with no photosynthesis in the morning (plants are "closed" for about 3 hours after lights turn on, until lights reach higher intensity when they "open" their leaves), which in theory should help to build up CO2 levels. Eventually I might need to further change the schedule, but I think it will be a good start and compromise.


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## zolteeC

mysiak said:


> zolteeC motivated me to try option b) again.  I found a way how to run venturi diffuser on a schedule (with the help of an air pump), so I will start the bubbling one hour before lights turn off and stop it when lights turn on. I have a very gradual sunrise/sunset timer running, so there will be at least 1-2 hour window with no photosynthesis in the morning (plants are "closed" for about 3 hours after lights turn on, until lights reach higher intensity when they "open" their leaves), which in theory should help to build up CO2 levels. Eventually I might need to further change the schedule, but I think it will be a good start and compromise.


 Let us know how your test goes, I am quite interested. Just make sure there is always enough O2 for the fish. My tanks have less fish so I don't have experience with such "well stocked" tanks. In aquarium stores, where they have typically lots of fish and no plants, if filter/air stone breaks, O2 can get depleted very, very rapidly. Your timing gizmos etc must be reliable enough and also it is worth making sure that no water can accidentally flow out of the tank when air pressure is low...

Its always a risk to experiment with a nicely working tank, so do not blame me if things go off the rails a bit


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## mysiak

zolteeC said:


> Let us know how your test goes, I am quite interested. Just make sure there is always enough O2 for the fish. My tanks have less fish so I don't have experience with such "well stocked" tanks. In aquarium stores, where they have typically lots of fish and no plants, if filter/air stone breaks, O2 can get depleted very, very rapidly. Your timing gizmos etc must be reliable enough and also it is worth making sure that no water can accidentally flow out of the tank when air pressure is low...
> 
> Its always a risk to experiment with a nicely working tank, so do not blame me if things go off the rails a bit


No worries, I'm playing it safe.  I expect any change to be very subtle (or better said I don't expect to notice anything), the main benefit for me is having clear water without bubbles and totally silent tank during main viewing period (it gives more professional feeling to it  ).


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## mysiak

My venturi control by using an air pump failed (no accident happened, it just doesn't work as I imagined  ) - an air pump must provide the same or lower pressure than what is being created by venturi effect. If an air pump pushes more air into the tube, it just creates big bubbles in the filter output nozzle and obstructs the water flow. Pressure from venturi effect decreases gradually each day as pre-filter slowly clogs up, so I would have to adjust the air pump every day, which sadly isn't an option. So I'm back to running the venturi diffuser 24/7. 

Anyway, I started to be curious about CO2 level and its variation during the day, so I'm going to buy either a drop checker or dedicated CO2 test. Hopefully there exists something cheap and accurate enough, I don't want to spend a fortune on a laboratory grade equipment just to satisfy my curiosity.


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## mysiak

During past 2-3 weeks I've noticed raised NO3 levels (I had been very generous with Grindal worms feeding, which most probably caused this so I stopped) and it didn't really decrease even after ~20-25% weekly water changes. Before my overfeeding "accident" I had very stable values about 20-30ppm. Now it's ~60-70ppm. So I measured the tap water (~25ppm), took a calculator and there's no surprise. I would have to change pretty much whole tank water to get back there. I will utilize the power of ion exchange resin instead, hopefully I'll get back to my stable values. 

Maybe someone else finds my simple online calculator useful (if anyone discovers a mistake, just let me know).
https://jscalc.io/calc/fivGcGz4Da6IPGFP


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## mysiak

I reinvented the wheel again as I keep trying things which I dismissed or stopped using in the past due to various reasons. I should be taking notes (and read them too  ) as my memory doesn't serve me really good. 

1. venturi diffuser - while it oxygenates water really good, it also increases flow too much. Waste doesn't have a good chance to settle in the substrate and it just floats and also clogs the filter much faster. Some plants don't seem to like increased flow and/or debris (algae growing on their edges). I returned to running an air stone at night.

2. standard membrane air pump - while it's practically inaudible during day (when I don't use it anyway), it creates amazingly loud rumble during night (most probably standing waves at very low frequencies) - at some places you can't hear it, but once you take a step, you can almost "feel" the sound via bones. It's a very interesting bio-physical phenomena, but unfortunately not suitable for regular usage. I moved back to much weaker, but really inaudible piezo-electric air pump.

Water parameters seem to be shifting towards softish and acidish water, so mainly as a preventive measure I've added a handful of crushed coral to the filter. I hope that it will revert the change slowly.

The tank looks about the same though, still removing a small bucket of plants every week, number of fish is stable as far as I can tell..


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## mysiak

Quick fish counting, many of them still sleeping or hiding in plants (or simply not visible in the photo).  I was expecting about 200 at max, total number of probably more than 400 (fry including) surprised me.

Water parameters are stable (I've stopped slow pH and KH decrease with crushed coral). Plants are showing mobile nutrient deficiency, I suspect that they have lack of potassium. In a few days I should have pure KCl at hand to make my own fertilizer, so hopefully that'll cheer them up.


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## dwalstad

Amazing!


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## mysiak

A quick photo after the usual weekly trimming.. 

Today/tomorrow I plan to start with extra potassium dosing, though I need to figure out how much am I going to add. I am thinking about starting at 0.5ppm of K each day (which is about 150mg of dry powder) and increase this amount if needed (up to recommended 1.3ppm). One or two weeks should be enough to evaluate the impact on fast growing plants.


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## mysiak

Potassium helped a little, but impact was not that big as how I expected, older leaves are still showing deficiency. From floaters, Pistia is very stunted (it used to be big as a palm, now it's like a fingernail), so I suspect that "something" is still missing. Green spot algae on glass and older leaves suggests that it might be Phosphorus, so I started with weekly dosing of KH2PO4.

Also I removed about 150 of fish, but reduction is barely visible in photos.  The latest addition to plants are Echinodorus bleheri and Ceratopteris thalictroides, hopefully they'll adapt quickly.


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## hoppycalif

I can't help suggesting that you just enjoy the beauty of your tank, and spend only minor time wondering what is wrong with it.. You really do have a very beautiful and interesting tank!


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## dwalstad

hoppycalif said:


> I can't help suggesting that you just enjoy the beauty of your tank, and spend only minor time wondering what is wrong with it....


But then there would be nothing to talk about! 

I was struck by how fat and healthy Mysiak's fish look. I suspect this population has been inbreeding for awhile, but it looks healthy. Mysiak, how would you evaluate the 150 fish that you removed. For example, were many (or any) of them grossly deformed?

Explanation: I'm writing article now about the effects of inbreeding and outbreeding in guppies.


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## mysiak

hoppycalif said:


> I can't help suggesting that you just enjoy the beauty of your tank, and spend only minor time wondering what is wrong with it.. You really do have a very beautiful and interesting tank!


Thank you! Wondering about what's wrong and how to fix it is a part of the beauty (for me).  There isn't anything "terribly wrong" as of now, but if possible, I rather fix issues before they show in full strength. And gaining some new experience and knowledge is always fun too. 



dwalstad said:


> But then there would be nothing to talk about!
> 
> I was struck by how fat and healthy Mysiak's fish look. I suspect this population has been inbreeding for awhile, but it looks healthy. Mysiak, how would you evaluate the 150 fish that you removed. For example, were many (or any) of them grossly deformed?
> 
> Explanation: I'm writing article now about the effects of inbreeding and outbreeding in guppies.


I could probably split it:
1. Endler's guppies (hybrids) - I don't have so many of them anymore, but every now and then I notice deformed fry (discolored, clamped fins, shy behavior). Sometimes they live until early adulthood, but they usually disappear "naturally" while very young. I was "refreshing" the bloodline over the time with visually different fish, but stopped adding new guppies about 2 years ago. However I can't say for sure that these deformities are result of "my" inbreeding, I suspect that they are rather result of breeding for looks by breeders as I remember seeing them regularly.

2. Limia perugiae - I have hundreds of them, fish which started this colony are getting old now, all descendants are result of inbreeding. Out of more than about 700 fish during past ~2 years (counting also fry which got consumed in the tank when it reached its "capacity") I remember probably only 2 deformed fry (discolored and died young). Until today I haven't noticed a single adult specimen with any visible deformities or hidden ones which would shorten their lifespan. Recently I saw about 3 males which are extremely small, but variable males size is natural to Limia's, so I don't know if it's result of inbreeding, reaching the "tank capacity" or just purely natural phenomenon. Probably the time will tell.

So far I haven't seen any "heavily" deformed fish (curved spine or anything similar), all observed deformities were in category of discoloration, short lifespan, clamped fins (disease?) and behavior (sluggish swimming, slow reaction to surroundings or food). It was impacting mostly "fancy" fish like guppies or platies with very distinctive colors. "Wild" Limias seem to be very resilient - maybe because there hasn't been done any selection for size/looks..?

All of ~150 removed fish were perfectly fine, unfortunately my LFS nor any other hobbyist in my area showed interest in them, so they were used as a live food for cichlids (this is the only, mostly inevitable part of keeping livebearers which I don't like).


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## dwalstad

Thanks Mysiak for the detailed information. Sorry to have gotten off-subject, but your tanks are so interesting!

There are many nuances to inbreeding that I am still trying to sort out.


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## mysiak

Here we go again, I am lazy to do the counting, but colony consists of about 400 fish..  It's impossible to take a photo of plants now.

The last time I mentioned that I had to dose also phosphates and it seems that it did the trick, plants aren't showing deficiency on older leaves so soon. I still might increase the dose, but it's on a good track. I dose a lot of ferts, but floaters and emersed growth is still quite stunted, so I assume that everything is being consumed (or blocked for uptake by plants?).

Current ferts schedule:
2x a week - 0.9 ppm of PO4 + 0.36 ppm of K (both from KH2PO4)
5x a week - 4ml of Seachem Flourish (on other days as PO4 dosing)
7x a week - 1.74 ppm of K (in KCl) and 1.48 ppm of K (in K2SO4)

Anyway, two photos of the tank, looks pretty much still the same.


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## Karen in San Jose

mysiak said:


> Here we go again, I am lazy to do the counting, but colony consists of about 400 fish..  It's impossible to take a photo of plants now.
> 
> The last time I mentioned that I had to dose also phosphates and it seems that it did the trick, plants aren't showing deficiency on older leaves so soon. I still might increase the dose, but it's on a good track. I dose a lot of ferts, but floaters and emersed growth is still quite stunted, so I assume that everything is being consumed (or blocked for uptake by plants?).
> 
> Current ferts schedule:
> 2x a week - 0.9 ppm of PO4 + 0.36 ppm of K (both from KH2PO4)
> 5x a week - 4ml of Seachem Flourish (on other days as PO4 dosing)
> 7x a week - 1.74 ppm of K (in KCl) and 1.48 ppm of K (in K2SO4)
> 
> Anyway, two photos of the tank, looks pretty much still the same.


This is so cool! I was worried about adding 15 cardinal tetras and 5 julii corydoras to my 20 gallon tank! I do have a huge rock that I may want to remove and add more plants in that space, though I do have a bunch of floating plants over it. Your tanks are so inspirational!


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## mysiak

Karen in San Jose said:


> This is so cool! I was worried about adding 15 cardinal tetras and 5 julii corydoras to my 20 gallon tank! I do have a huge rock that I may want to remove and add more plants in that space, though I do have a bunch of floating plants over it. Your tanks are so inspirational!


Oh, please do not consider this overcrowded tank as an ideal example.  Fortunately it works, but needs a bit of extra attention (oxygen levels, pH, GH, KH). Also keep in mind that I started with just a couple of fish, the colony stabilized on these numbers "itself" (described in more details here).

I wouldn't be worried about bioload of 15 cardinal tetras in 20g, but they tend to grow quite big, so it might be just a bit small living/swimming space for them. Neon tetras might be a better choice for smaller tanks.


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## mysiak

For anyone interested, just a few updates:

- I had to remove all Xenotoca doadrioi fish, they were extremely nippy - destroying fins and scales of all the other fish. Any newly added fish was terrorised. I foolishly believed breeder from whom I purchased them - he told me that they can be kept in a community tank, but I didn't have luck with it. It just kept getting worse, so off they went.

- I've removed also many adult Limia fish to make free space for fry and new fish (Cherry barbs and Swordtails - both are still hiding probably due to shock from Xenotoca).

- I find it interesting that few minutes after adding ferts, some plants start pearling. Without ferts it doesn't happen. Also during my absence there was hardly any new growth, only after I started with regular dosing everything's "normal" again.

- 4 Echinodorus plants planted in different places in the tank somehow stopped growing after initial 2-3 new leaves. Nothing since then, I'll try to add fertilizer into the substrate, hopefully it'll get them started again.

Two photos showing almost no change, just the usual jungle.


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## mysiak

Soo..finally something new is happening, though I'm not sure that I'm totally happy.

+ ramshorn and bladder snails stopped dying prematurely, although their numbers are extremely limited
- practically all Malaysian trumpet snails died, there is next to none in the filter area, there are no signs of live snails in the substrate either, not even during night. Dead shrimp is ignored for days, no snails eating it.

+ Caridina japonica shrimps are showing no signs of distress
- practically all dwarf shrimp disappeared, but I suspect that this is doing of Cherry barbs - I saw them more than once how they teared adult shrimp to pieces 

+ many plants took off (including mosses), showing low amount/no algae on their leaves. It seems that using an UV light has its benefits - UV might be increasing bioavailability of iron and/or other nutrients. 
- some plants are "suddenly" stunted, not sure if due to competition or another reason
+- crypts jungle is strong as usual, but I noticed quite a lof of melting leaves. New ones are growing healthy, so not a disaster, but still strange.

+ Limia perugiae colony is strong as ever, no diseases, no malformations, just happy lively fish
+- Black molly fish seem happy too, even though growing very slowly (I suspect that number of Limias is inhibiting them)
- very nice, bright orange swordtails are slowly withering away - I assume (and hope) that it's just wrong genetics

Water parameters are as usual, nothing suspicious. No fish gasping for air, no sulphur smell when I poked the substrate, plenty of hiding spaces and I presume that also food (dead leaves, fish food, etc.) so I can explain what's going on..


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## mysiak

Almost one year later..the jungle is still..the jungle.  

Crypts are growing bigger and bigger, from nice "cartpeting" foreground plant they became tall mid/background plants, but it's too late for any change. I keep them in check with regular trimming. Other plants require trimming/pruning every week or two as well. 

MTS snails are still gone, all my attempts for reintroduction failed and I have no idea why. Ramshorn and bladder snails are alive, although they never reach their full adult size, even if living long enough (judging by algae growing on their shells). Fancy snails are gone as well, but I had them for a couple of years, so hopefully it was just because of an old age. 

Limia fish are extremely strong and they outcompete any attempts for mixing in other species (guppies, mollies, swordtails,..). New fish either don't breed at all, or all their brood is eaten soon after birth. But I keep trying as I want a touch more color in the tank. 

One crappy photo of the tank before regular trimming.


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## mysiak

Yearly update..with almost no update.. 

Plants come and go, there is usually one strong species while other wait in "dormancy". Once I do a heavy trimming and pruning of the successor, another plant starts to bloom. At the moment it's Ceratopteris thalictroides - water sprite, replacing the usual kings Hygrophila polysperma and Najas guadalupensis (Najas has probably "summer sleep" period now). Cryptocoryne refuses to grow compact, obstructing the front view.. But that's the life in the jungle I guess. 

Summer vacation took its usual toll, plants depend heavily on daily dosage of iron (and potassium) - not even two weeks away caused chlorosis of the most vigorous floaters. Submerged growth was stunted a little as well. 

A few days ago I god hold of ~60 MTS snails which I introduced, hoping that they will keep living and multiplying, I really miss them.

Fish population is stable (should be still about 400 specimen), Limia perugiae are still the most numerous ones, but Endlers, guppies and their hybrids are finally growing in numbers too (I need to keep removing Limia fry periodically though). "Neon" sword tails have a nice small and growing colony as well. No luck with gold Molly fish, there was zero fry and except one, all adults died over time. 

As mentioned in another thread, I am running an air stone + venturi aerator 24/7. In my amateur experiments and observations it seems to suit not only fish, but for some reason also plants. I have no hard evidence nor explanation, one would expect that extra CO2 would benefit the plants (maybe they were limited by other nutrients instead of CO2, or they prefer stable environment?). I am considering to try running the air pumps during night only again, just to confirm my previous observations. 

A few photos:



















Older leaves with slight chlorosis are from during my vacation, new leaves are since I returned to daily iron dosing.









Another set of floaters.


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## mysiak

There was a question in another topic about the filter in this tank, so I'm pasting the answer also here, along with good explanation by Dr. Walstad of why aeration might benefit also plants in this particular tank/situation:

"_With this many fish, I can see why aeration would be critical for fish survival. The many fish constantly generating CO2 by their respiration provides plenty of CO2 for plants. Aeration has apparently also benefited plants by stimulating decomposition of water DOC, thereby "unlocking" DOC nutrients--including CO2._"

Filter:
This tank has stock filter which looks like this (it is located in the right corner). It has an unusual design decision - "polishing" filter floss is located as the very first media, so it captures majority of all the waste before entering the filter. Floss has to be replaced every week, but on the positive note, the rest of the sponges basically never clog and don't need any cleaning whatsoever (except the motor/propeller every ~3 months). I'm not really sure if it does any good in terms of biological filtration (other filter media look almost like new), but as the filter's glued in and acts as a mechanical filter + moves water around, I keep using it.

I ran the filter without the filter floss for some time, but it was hard to predict when the filter is going to clog completely and it was pain to clean everything so I abandoned the idea eventually. Initially I thought that this design is just a "cash grab", but I actually like the idea now (I'm buying generic filter floss in bulk).


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> Filter:
> This tank has stock filter which looks like this (it is located in the right corner). It has an unusual design decision - "polishing" filter floss is located as the very first media, so it captures majority of all the waste before entering the filter. Floss has to be replaced every week, but on the positive note, the rest of the sponges basically never clog and don't need any cleaning whatsoever (except the motor/propeller every ~3 months). I'm not really sure if it does any good in terms of biological filtration (other filter media look almost like new), but as the filter's glued in and acts a mechanical filter + moves water around, I keep using it.
> 
> I ran the filter without the filter floss for some time, but it was hard to predict when the filter is it going to clog completely and it was pain to clean everything so I abandoned the idea eventually. Initially I thought that this design is just a "cash grab", but I actually like the idea now (I'm buying generic filter floss in bulk).


That's a very nice filter. It is submerged, unobtrusive and doesn't have a lot of competing biofiltration. It lets the plants get the ammonia instead of nitrifying bacteria. 

In rereading your long post, I see that you started with under-gravel heating cables. I imagine that they were very helpful in establishing the tank--inducing water circulation in the substrate and preventing severely anaerobic conditions.

You have what looks like a simple tank, but the ideas behind it are quite sophisticated.


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## mysiak

The heating cable was recommended to me by a very convincing seller at the local fish store as a "must have" for planted tanks (not surprising considering its price), I never heard about it before, nor did I use it in other tanks. Later I read about this concept, but I have no idea if it really makes any difference. I found conflicting reports about its real-life usefulness. 

When I removed big Crinum plant from this tank, disturbing much of the substrate, I smelled a bit of sulfur and saw some black areas. Would it be worse without the cable? I honestly can't tell, but as majority of tanks in this hobby don't have it and they work just fine, I incline to consider it as a gimmick (or even a "snake oil").  

Btw. except Cryptocorynes I can't keep any other plant rooted in this tank. Several times I tried to plant Sagittaria, Echinodorus or even stem plants, but all of them die eventually or just uproot themselves and float. It doesn't matter if they are in submersed or emerged form. Poking of the substrate doesn't release any bubbles or rotten smell, yet plants refuse to stay rooted. It's one of the mysteries of this tank.


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## mistergreen

mysiak said:


> disturbing much of the substrate, I smelled a bit of sulfur and saw some black areas. Would it be worse without the cable?


Heat generally drives O2 out of the water, in this case, the substrate. Maybe the heating cable accelerates the anaerobic condition.


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## mysiak

mistergreen said:


> Heat generally drives O2 out of the water, in this case, the substrate. Maybe the heating cable accelerates the anaerobic condition.


Interesting hypothesis, the cable should be causing the opposite effect though (pushing warm water out of the bottom, bringing colder, nutrient and oxygen rich water from above). In each case, I removed the plant about 4 years ago (the first and last plant which I uprooted myself) and I don't see signs of anaerobic conditions when I'm poking the substrate now, so the substrate should be fine. But for the fun of it I disconnected the cable as I'm curious if I'll notice any change in the coming weeks/months. I will poke the substrate every few days just to be sure that it's not turning into a disaster.


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## dwalstad

mysiak said:


> The heating cable was recommended to me by a very convincing seller at the local fish store as a "must have" for planted tanks (not surprising considering its price), I never heard about it before, nor did I use it in other tanks. Later I read about this concept, but I have no idea if it really makes any difference. I found conflicting reports about its real-life usefulness.
> 
> When I removed big Crinum plant from this tank, disturbing much of the substrate, I smelled a bit of sulfur and saw some black areas. Would it be worse without the cable? I honestly can't tell, but as majority of tanks in this hobby don't have it and they work just fine, I incline to consider it as a gimmick (or even a "snake oil").
> 
> Btw. except Cryptocorynes I can't keep any other plant rooted in this tank. Several times I tried to plant Sagittaria, Echinodorus or even stem plants, but all of them die eventually or just uproot themselves and float. It doesn't matter if they are in submersed or emerged form. Poking of the substrate doesn't release any bubbles or rotten smell, yet plants refuse to stay rooted. It's one of the mysteries of this tank.


So you have tanks without the cable that do just fine. Good information. I think I'll drop the issue. 
I speculate that the Crypts may be inhibiting other plants with allelochemicals. Perhaps the Crinum roots began to die. Root decomposition would make the Crinum area severely anaerobic, thereby, providing conditions conducive to H2S bacteria. 
I have seen Crypts take over one of my tanks and elbow out a large Amazon Swordplant. I would not rule out allelopathy.


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