# Digital Bubble Counter!



## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

I was thinking about how many of us have struggled with drifting bubble counts using regulators like Milwaukee and Azoo.

Lots of people, myself included, tend to think that it's something we have to live with due to the effect of temperatures on the metal needle valve used to regulate the bubble rate.

I believe with a little searching we could find some sort of small, unobtrusive infra-red device one could clamp on to a standard clear bubble counter, and perhaps it would be able to register when the infra-red beam is broken by a bubble.

You could have a little led display connected to the device that would display the current bubble count.

I would love to just peak under my tank and see the reading at "3.0", or look and see that it's slowed to 2.8, which it will- so I can nudge it back up a bit.

Of course I don't have the knowledge to rig up such a device.. some basic electronics design knowledge would be required.. and maybe it isn't even feasible.. it's just a little idea that popped into my head tonight when I noticed AGAIN that my stupid regulator was well below my desired 3 bpm.

What do you all think? Anyone around here with the expertise to put something like that together? I'd buy one. Or a DIY project would be fun too. With a schematic or whatever I can solder things together and find parts in the radio shack parts book.


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

What about some kind of electronic needle valve that could meter and regulate the amount of gas to let through. Then a bubble counter wouldn't even be necessary. Surely something like this must exist. Sounds expensive, though.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

There would have to be feedback to control the valve. A bubble counter would be a good source for that.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Sounds like an awesome idea, I bet some of the creative minds out there could come up with something. 


My first concern would have to be, could a bubble of CO2 really obstruct the light of an inf. red light source or laser (probably a better choice) enough to trigger a photo sensing circuit?


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## shake (Feb 26, 2006)

Wouldn't hospitals use some sort of equipment like that.

My wife was in hospital last November for a week on a drip and some of the equipment I saw there had me thinking I you could use it in our hobby.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I beleive they use dosing pumps for liquids and measure their flowrates of gases by liters/hour instead of bubbles per second. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure thats how they do it.


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

What if the CO2 bubble could raise a lever or something that could then trigger a switch? That might be easier than the optics approach. The only difficulty would be designing a system that could reset in a split second to be ready for the next bubble.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Use something like india ink in the bubble counter, with a photocell mounted on one side of the counter and a dim light on the other side. Each bubble would allow light to pass, giving a brief signal. 

Ok, now that I have done the hard work, I will leave the easy part, the counting of the signals, differentiating to get a signal per unit time output, making that operate a numerical display, etc, for others.


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## riverspryte (Sep 16, 2006)

*IV for tanks*



shake said:


> Wouldn't hospitals use some sort of equipment like that.
> My wife was in hospital last November for a week on a drip and some of the equipment I saw there had me thinking I you could use it in our hobby.


I was flipping through a petstore catalog (I don't remember wich one, petsolutions, maybe), and they sell an IV drip line for dosing medicine in an aquarium. Thought that this was interesting.

Also--The bubbles probably would register on a inf. red/laser because they would cause the light waves to bend; although, I don't know if a sensor could detect that kind of change, it might have to be a change in intensity.


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

I don't really get this idea, why try to build something to regulate the bubble rate? as i see it thats not an important factor.
If your plant mass varies you will still have problem even if the bubble rate is the same.
The solution for this as i see it is a normal pH controller, then the bubble rate is not that important and it takes care of changes in plant uptake.
An analog pH controller can be built quite cheep instead of building a bubble counter.


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

Well, what's the point of a bubble counter at all? To give a rough indication of the CO2 flow. Having a digital readout would be nice, that's all. I think that's the basic idea.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

what this would do is give a digital readout of the number of bubbles flowing through the counter saving the person reading from trying to count speedy bubbles. This would be really nice for larger tanks where bubble rates exceed 2 bubbles per second. Personally I have a tough time counting bubbles because they are so close together and move very quickly so it can be hard to keep track. 

A device like this would eliminate this problem and give you a number that it counts constantly, showing any fluctuations that occur in the co2 injection rate instantly and effortlessly. 



I have looked a little bit on the internet and I found a device that would do all the monitoring and compute the data as well as display it for us... as long as the photo sensor could actually spot the bubbles. I have no idea what the cost is, doesn't look cheap, but I can't find anybody who actually sells it. I'll keep looking though.


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

What about something like this rigged up to a digital controller? This would replace the bubble counter entirely, and you could dial in the flow to whatever you want.

This is what I was talking about in my first post... some kind of electronically controllable needle valve.

Gas Flow Valve - Semiconductor International

The high-precision PEV-1 piezoelectric gas flow valve is intended for use with inert gases typically used in sputtering applications. They directly respond with a precise linear flow rate governed by 0-100 VDC. The valve is fail safe with a throughput of 0-525 sccm or higher. Key High Vacuum Products Inc.,










That is, of course, if this thing is what I think it is.

And it look expensive too.


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

OK, I just looked up the price: $650.00

Maybe there's a cheaper version of the same idea.


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

Here are some flow meters, starting at $50.00:

Variable Area > Flow Meters > Piston-Type


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## turbowagon (Jan 5, 2006)

The flow rate appears to be too high on the one above. 

Here's a digital readout for $805.00:

Flocat LA10-A Volumetric Gas Flow Meter


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I wonder how back pressure would effect such devices if they were in a CO2 setup for aquarium use?



I found that devices called Frequency Counters and Frequency Meters could probably be used here, I found many on ebay in the $20-$50 range... it seems many of these devices are used for Radio Frequency (RF) Applications but I have also seen some that are used to track electronic pulses like those that could be created by a photosensor. These are the same devices used in manufacturing applications where they are counting production rates by using a laser and photosensor across a conveyor belt... sounds familure if you catch my drift. There are schematics for these devices all over the web but I think they are designed for the RF applications. Is there anyone who has more experience with electronics???


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

NE said:


> I don't really get this idea, why try to build something to regulate the bubble rate? as i see it thats not an important factor.
> If your plant mass varies you will still have problem even if the bubble rate is the same.
> The solution for this as i see it is a normal pH controller, then the bubble rate is not that important and it takes care of changes in plant uptake.
> An analog pH controller can be built quite cheep instead of building a bubble counter.


ph Controllers come with their own set of problems, namely that certain scenarios can arise that will cause the death of all fauna in the tank.

This idea isn't about regulating anything- it's simply a digital counter, nothing more.

I use 3 bubbles per second in my setup and it's hard if not impossible to differentiate 3 from 2 without getting out a stop watch and counting bubbles for sixty seconds and even then counting 3 bps is not exactly easy.

Compounding the problem is that your standard needle valve often times will not keep a constant rate. Mine drops slowly over a month from 3 down to 2 and beyond if I don't keep an eye on it.

Inconsistent levels of CO2 are one of the primary causes of poor growth in our hobby.

It would be great to just look in and see a little glowing LED saying "3.0". It's partly for peace of mind, and partly to help the user control the environment more easily.

As a bonus, there is no way it can accidentally ruin your tank like a ph Controller can.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I would be willing to buy such a device if it cost around $20, and I suspect many would. $800 is a little beyond what it would be worth to me though. I keep thinking that there is probably such a device already available, which could be adapted by reducing the needed accuracy, reducing the need for being able to sterilize it, getting rid of the chrome plating, etc. A couple of hours spent on google should reveal something. I'm even pretty certain that this could be DIYed successfully by several of the members here. (I'm not one of them.)


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

I still don't get it, why spending money on something thats only taking you half the way when you could have a fully regulated system for probably the same or less money, then it does not matter how many bubbles you have as long as you exceed the need.
In Sweden which is usually more expensive than the US, the cost for a simple pH-regulator would be less than 100$ (with probe but without the valve).

Alternativly this might be interesting a design which combines known techniques and is cheep.
Cheap CO2 Controller


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Put a limestone rock in your aquarium with your ph Controller.

Get back to me after a few days and let me know how that goes.

My point is that a ph Controller can, has and statistically speaking WILL fail.

Also I would bet that an infra-red beam connected to some trivial logic circuit and led readout would in the end be far cheaper than a ph Controller.


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

> Put a limestone rock in your aquarium with your ph Controller.
> 
> Get back to me after a few days and let me know how that goes.


I find that a quite stupid comment (cut a hole in your co2 hose and see what happens with your co2 level with the same bubble rate).


> My point is that a ph Controller can, has and statistically speaking WILL fail.


Yes it is not better than your settings but between checks it has a very good possibility to work fine, do your bubble rate do that? no thats why you need the counter.



> Also I would bet that an infra-red beam connected to some trivial logic circuit and led readout would in the end be far cheaper than a ph Controller.


Maybe but it has more and better functionality, Did you see the last link i posted, and the price?


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

To clear a couple things up, sounds like this argument is getting a little hostile....

A limestone rock or some other type of ph buffering aggregate could definitely foul the accuracy and reliability of the controller, altering the PH that it’s using to control the amount of CO2 it’s allowing to be injected. This could be disastrous by adding way to much CO2 even though the PH is still at 7. 

PH controllers are great but some don't like them because the care involved with maintaining the probes and what if the thing malfunctions, it’s possible you can't argue that it isn't. Always remember Murphy’s law.

As for the cost of this device, yes expensive pieces of equipment were mentioned but this is a search for the right parts to build something like this, of course we're going to find tons of things that are WAY more than we would ever need for this application. Nobody knows how much it would cost it could very possibly be less than half the price of a controller. 

I'm all for arguing the point of having more equipment and hearing other points of view but it already sounds by reading this thread that there are several people that would be very interested in a device like this. It’s not meant to take over the manual control of co2 injection or replace a controller, it’s meant to make it easier to monitor fluctuations in bubble rate caused by environmental conditions and or equipment issues. It’s meant to make it easier to read a bubble counter which is all many of us want. Maybe this device wouldn't be the best thing for everyone but it could be very useful for others, including myself. 

To each their own but I do beleive the value of a device like this has allready been established.


personally if I were to incorporate somethign like this I would still use a drop checker to get an accurate idea of CO2 concentrations. this would just be a quick check to see if the bubble rate is changing.


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

I can see that i could be a counting help, but my non understanding of this is mainly based on the amount of people who liked to expand it to a controlling device.

It was not meant to be a hostile post, but if you mess something up it will be messed up whatever you do, no mater what.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

NE said:


> I can see that i could be a counting help, but my non understanding of this is mainly based on the amount of people who liked to expand it to a controlling device.
> 
> It was not meant to be a hostile post, but if you mess something up it will be messed up whatever you do, no mater what.


Hostile probably wasn't the best word to use there but we were definately getting off track.

I see your point too its not a controller and its really not meant to be one either its mainly to make a bubble counter easier to use... if the device ever gets created or even works.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I just tested my bubble counter with a laser pointer, the bubbles bend the light enough to clearly break it!!!!  this could actually work!!! now I just need to find the right device to meter the rate of pulses that would be generated by the photo sensor. by the way are there any other ideas out there for a means to do this???? i'm open for any and all suggestions.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I can visualize a very small bubble counter, with a LED as a light source, or a very tiny laser, shining thru the water/bubble column towards an equally tiny photosensitive detector. What I can't yet visualize is how to avoid the problems so many of us have with keeping liquid in the bubble counter. This would be especially problematic with the small size that would make this economical in the first place. How would that be solved? Given that even old technology printed circuits could easily be designed to solve the electronic problems at a low cost I see this as the problem that could be hardest to solve.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I really dont think we can use this device to correct the problem of evaporating water in the bubble counter... I used a regular laser pointer in my test earlier today and it appeared to work pretty well with my bubble counter which is the one that comes on the milwaukee regulator. I found it worked better when placed near the bottom of the bubble counter where the bubbles originate... this corrected the weaving bubble pattern that can occur due to turbulance. Anyway I think the problem will be stray light, I'm sure most co2 systems sit under the tank in a stand so its pretty dark but we would need to probably wrap some tape around a portion of the bubble counter to help with this, the problem with that is you might have trouble seeing the water level so it would have to be filled regularly. We'd have to experiment once it was built to see if its even an issue.


I'm imagining an aparatus that fits over a standard bubble counter since everybody has them and they are roughly the same size. with a separate box that housed the majority of the circuitry and the display. The box could be even mounted to the inside of the stand but at least it woudln't be a ton of weight on the regulator. we could also build it to fit the aquamedic stand alone bubble counter but that would definately add to the cost.


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## turbomkt (Mar 31, 2004)

Don't forget that water is not the only solution. Glycerin is cheap, non-toxic, and does not evaporate quickly. In fact, I can't measure the loss in my bubble counter since I switched to it. While at the top things are slow, if you keep with the idea of the sensor at the outlet into the counter there shouldn't be any problem counting correctly.

Another thing that may help is food coloring.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

NE said:


> I find that a quite stupid comment


Please keep your insults to yourself, this is a family friendly forum.

Remember when batches of Eco-complete were going around causing people's KH to go up?

Perfect example of where a ph Controller can and will kill every fish in your tank.

Further, EVERYTHING will fail eventually. It's called entropy.

The difference is that this device wouldn't kill every fish in your tank. Your ph controller would, has and will.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

NE said:


> It was not meant to be a hostile post, but if you mess something up it will be messed up whatever you do, no mater what.


Tell us how a passive device such as the one proposed could mess anything up.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

NE said:


> It was not meant to be a hostile post, but if you mess something up it will be messed up whatever you do, no mater what.


I don't know how they do things in Sweden, but here in America, calling someone's comments "stupid" is regarded as a hostile act. More so when you're unable to substantiate the slander with so much as a scintilla of evidence.

On this forum we try to disagree without being disagreeable.


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## SpaceBug (Jan 10, 2007)

I would think an LED to shine through the liquid to a photoresistor on the other side would be sensitive enough to cause a change in voltage when a bubble passes through the beam. Coloring of the liquid mught enhance the sensitivity. Then its just a matter of additional electronics to count the changes in voltage. Seems like that should be easy enough, although it is certainly outside my capabilities.


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

OK, let me try again,

yes if you put something in the tank that's going to change the pH, of course the pH controller will not give you the right co2 level, but hopefully everyone will understand that (this is basic, thats why i think it's an irrelevant statement), but between checks of various kinds you have a system which will hold your level pretty stable no matter what figures it shows, i don't trust the figures, i check the CO2 level by other ways also.

With a bubble counter you just check roughly how much co2 goes through the bubble counter, and i can understand a certain need for something like this if you don't have a controller and a bubble rate which is so high that you have a tough time to count it. But this is not a check for how your water will respond to it, if you get a leek, plant mass changes or something happens to your reactor or the flow through it or anything else which will affect the actual dissolvement of the co2 it will not give you any hints on the problem.
I find it a very bad idea to use it as a controller device because of the above things, it does not say anything about the waters condition.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

NE said:


> With a bubble counter you just check roughly how much co2 goes through the bubble counter, and i can understand a certain need for something like this if you don't have a controller and a bubble rate which is so high that you have a tough time to count it. But this is not a check for how your water will respond to it, if you get a leek, plant mass changes or something happens to your reactor or the flow through it or anything else which will affect the actual dissolvement of the co2 it will not give you any hints on the problem.
> I find it a very bad idea to use it as a controller device because of the above things, it does not say anything about the waters condition.


I think this is where the missunderstanding is, this device is not meant to be used as a controller by any sense. It woudln't have the ability to regulate CO2 injection the way a ph controller would, it wouldnt' be actually connected to the CO2 system at all... its sole purpose would be to count bubbles and minimize erroneous bubble counts and bring to your attention any changes that occur, regardless of how much co2 is actually dissolving in the water or the efficiency of the system. If a device like this were to be used in conjunction with a drop checker it would help keep co2 levels a little more consistent and possibly even let the user know if there was a new leak or change in effciency of the system. I hope this clarifies a little more.


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

In the thread a some people have been talking about extending it to a controlling device.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

wow I hadn't noticed that. I dont think I would want to do that for my tank but at least, if you were to use it that way most likely if something went wrong it would be giving less CO2 than needed so the fish wouldnt have problems. we still need to figure out how to build this digital bubble counter, has anyone been working on this, I've been pretty busy in the last week or so but I'm still rolling ideas around.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

I use a mass flow controller like the one turbowagon posted.

It doesn't just measure flow, it controls it automatically. Precise CO2 injection rate at all times, regardless of working pressure fluctuations, blockage in the diffuser, if the line disconnects, or any other reason.

Never having to count bubbles again is worth it.


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## SpaceBug (Jan 10, 2007)

Just how much was "never having to count bubbles again" worth to you? That thing must have cost a tidy little sum!


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Funny, I see 3 pages of discussion about something that is fun to think about but completely useless.

Surely it'd be cool to look at a number, but the price of the device will probably be close to the price of a pH-controller.

Besides price there is another reason for a digital bubble counter to not really be useful. Once the CO2 bubble rate is stable it stays stable until the bottle until the gas is almost completely gone. Why would you want to look at the same bps number for months on end? It'd make more sense to make the device average the bubble rate over an hour or so - that way one could actually see if there was a decrease or increase of the bubble rate. The price of such device will certainly be comparable to getting a pH controller.

Another good question is - what kind of needle valve will allow very fine regulation? The expensive "metering" needle valves probably will do - at a price of about $80 per piece (the price of a pH controller that is ).

If I skip the expensive metering needle valve and use a $20 needle valve then adjusting the bps will be a real pain. We all know how "precise" these things are. It will take a full day of adjusting the flow rate from 3 bps to 3.1 bps while staring at my cool digital bubble counter and waiting for the gas flow to stabilize every time I touch the valve. 

Ok, say I want to really, really be able to control the bubble rate precisely. Increase/decrease it from say 3 to 3.1 bps. I have a good needle valve and everything is ideal. Pretty cool... but let's be honest - how will that affect the plants? If I maintain my tanks so carefully that a 0.1 or 0.5 bps up or down makes a difference then I certainly have a lot of experience and I need only a few pieces of information to make everything work beautifully. And surely doesn't include counting bubbles.

Be my guest - ask Jeff Senske how many bubbles per second he runs on his planted tanks.

--Nikolay


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

If a digital bubble counter is completely useless, so is a regular cheap bubble counter. Both provide interesting information but unnecessary information. I most certainly wouldn't spend more than $20 for a digital bubble counter, but I might possibly spend that much just for the novelty, if nothing else. And, if I were more electronically educated, with a box of spare junk, I might well try to make one for the pleasure of doing so. This is no different from putting moonlights over the tank, or trying to simulate dawn to dusk light changes. This is, after all, a hobby - let's enjoy it!


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

I dont see this as a useless device or idea. I find it very difficult to even approximate anything over 3bps. if its really useless information to know what your bubble rate is, why do we even include bubble counters in our CO2 systems. by your logic we could go without it just set the needle valve and forget it, for months. Honestly I'm suprised there are so many people that are completely oposed to the idea of something like this. Just trying to ease bubble counting frustration thats the whole point of it.


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## SpaceBug (Jan 10, 2007)

With my eyesight I can't even see the bubbles, let alone count them. But I can read an LED display just fine. So I'd buy one of these even if it was $50.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

It seems any time someone talks about using something that has a higher price than what the market typically bears, there's a very hostile reaction. Amano, high grade chemicals, etc.

I don't get it with this hobby. This doesn't happen in forums for cars or stereos.

Are the majority of people in this hobby poor or jealous? I don't know, mayble. Do the majority of people in this hobby only have a limited amount of love for it, so if a person spends more money on it than exceeds their own appreciation for it, they get offended? I don't know, maybe.

In all it really sucks a lot of the fun out of it when I post about it, so I tend not to post so much any more. Hobbies are supposed to be fun, once they stop being fun, there's no point.

I have found the mass flow controller to be a valuable tool and is one of the most useful pieces of equipment I have ever used. I stand by my statements.


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Salt said:


> It seems any time someone talks about using something that has a higher price than what the market typically bears, there's a very hostile reaction. Amano, high grade chemicals, etc.
> 
> I don't get it with this hobby. This doesn't happen in forums for cars or stereos.
> 
> ...


I definately understand what your saying, why is there so much negativity about even trying it, there's more opinions about the use, cost, or need for something like this than constructive ideas about how to build one. I personally think it would be useful for me and would make the hobby more enjoyable by taking some frustration away. I dont need 100% precision accuracy but I would appreciate being able to read my bubble counter. That being said I can also understand the confusion some of you may have about this if you've only kept smaller tanks with CO2, low bubble rates aren't terrible to read but it does become very difficult to read a bubble counter when injection rates are high. Maybe a device like Salt has is a better option pricewise, who knows but it is definately something to consider. Just because a digital bubble counter or metering device may not be used by Amano or the Senske's or fit someone else's buget doesn't mean that it wouldn't be something that could make the hobby more enjoyable for me or someone else.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

We still need someone with the ability to put a working prototype together..

Of course if these manufacturers could just create a needle valve that doesn't drift, this digital bubble counter wouldn't be as important.. still cool but.. not critical..


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## creative-fury (Sep 8, 2006)

I think it's a cool idea. I know I would buy one since I'm a sucker for anything that is digital on my aquarium. My goal is to have everything monitored electronically. So I can hop on my computer and see readings from everything like Temp, Ph, Co2 etc.. down to PO4 and Iron levels and adjust what needs to be adjusted with a click of the mouse. Now how cool would that be. So hoppy I know you busy inventing other things (I've been following your drop checker probe) but can you get me something to monitor everything


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

creative-fury said:


> I think it's a cool idea. I know I would buy one since I'm a sucker for anything that is digital on my aquarium. My goal is to have everything monitored electronically. So I can hop on my computer and see readings from everything like Temp, Ph, Co2 etc.. down to PO4 and Iron levels and adjust what needs to be adjusted with a click of the mouse. Now how cool would that be. So hoppy I know you busy inventing other things (I've been following your drop checker probe) but can you get me something to monitor everything


Unfortunately my experience and education is mechanical, with a bit of electrical and electronic mixed in.  No computer skills to speak of. And, most of the little I knew about electronics I have forgotten. You have to be from a younger generation to be inventive in that field.

But, I do have some thoughts on the subject: The mass flow measuring device shown on an earlier post is great, but for what I would want, it is overkill. I like simple devices, cheap, not too hard to make, that give results just accurate enough to fill my needs. In other words, a digital bubble counter!


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## Ultimbow (Sep 10, 2005)

hi where i work we have those invisible safty fence on our machine they are optical sensor when you cut the laser beem the machine automaticly stop. i don't know if this could be put on a counting device of some sort. every time the bubble cut the the beem send a signal to a digtal counting device. 

personaly i will use this to count bubble every minute than you devide it per 60 second will give you a more presice reading but then the device could do that too


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## redstrat (Apr 3, 2006)

Ultimbow said:


> hi where i work we have those invisible safty fence on our machine they are optical sensor when you cut the laser beem the machine automaticly stop. i don't know if this could be put on a counting device of some sort. every time the bubble cut the the beem send a signal to a digtal counting device.


That sounds like the same idea I've been working with so far  I'm just trying to work out the metering or counting device right now


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