# Chlorine, Chloramine and Water Treatment Products/Solutions



## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

I realized I've kind of hijacked a couple threads on this topic and I apologize for that. I'd like to discuss this further as I find it interesting and important and I'd like to understand it better, and maybe others would, too. So, I hope you all don't mind me starting a separate thread on this topic.

I recently accidentally added the wrong amount of API tap water conditioner to my 20 gallon tank. The only creatures I had in it were snails, blackworms and one shrimp. My mistake didn't harm the plants, shrimp or snails, but I had a huge blackworm die-off of the ones right where I poured in the conditioner.

My error: It's the concentrated formula and the correct dose is 1ml to 20 gallons of water. I'm used to my API Stresscoat conditioner, which is 1ml/gallon. So, what I did was I added 20ml to my 20 gallon tank. I should have only put 1ml in the tank.

I poured the conditioner into the tank after I'd removed about 50% of the water, and just before I was going to add the tap water. The tap water is fine and doesn't contain chloramines. It had been airing for at least several days, so shouldn't have had any chlorine in it, either.

I stopped using any water conditioner, as I became nervous about hurting my creatures, and they've all been fine. But, I've been advised here on this forum, that it's possible that my city water may start adding chloramine to the water, and I learned this is possible from my city water website. So, it would be better to just treat the water, in case the city started using chloramine.

What I've learned about chloramine is that it's chlorine mixed with ammonia. And, it doesn't dissipate in the air, like plain chlorine does. So, by adding it to your tank, you are adding both chlorine and ammonia.

Some water conditioners treat for only chlorine and not for the additional ammonia, some do.

This article explains the difference and lists some different products and whether they treat for one or both.

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Water_conditioners

Mysiak mentioned using vitamin C as a natural treatment, and others mentioned specific products they used that they have had good experiences with. Would you all mind mentioning them again here? Or if anyone has anything to add, please do?

My concern is that by adding chemicals to the tank, it stresses out the fish. I hate to add a chemical to a chemical - adding a water conditioner to take care of the chlorine if there's chloramine, and then have to also add an ammonia blocker.

I guess I'm wondering if it's just safer to buy some kind of bottled water?

I did read somewhere that you can tell if your tap water has chloramine by testing it for ammonia. I tested mine today with just a simple ammonia test from my kit and it showed 0 (or according to a color chart, anyway, which isn't perfect).

What are you all doing? Please advise and educate me.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

When I need to top off my pond, I'll use ascorbic acid/vitamin c. It's cheap and easy. It'll neutralize both chlorine & chloramine. I'm sure the ammonia is chloramine in not neutralized but it might. Ascorbic acid might oxydize NH3 to NO2 or NO3 but I'll have to test that or find literature on that.

I run my aquarium water through a duel carbon house filter. It'll take out any chemicals, chlorine or chloramine.

There's no harm in using Prime and the rest but make sure to dose appropriately.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> When I need to top off my pond, I'll use ascorbic acid/vitamin c. It's cheap and easy. It'll neutralize both chlorine & chloramine. I'm sure the ammonia is chloramine in not neutralized but it might. Ascorbic acid might oxydize NH3 to NO2 or NO3 but I'll have to test that or find literature on that.
> 
> I run my aquarium water through a duel carbon house filter. It'll take out any chemicals, chlorine or chloramine.
> 
> There's no harm in using Prime and the rest but make sure to dose appropriately.


What is the dosage you use for the ascorbic acid? If you test or find the literature on the possible oxydization, etc., I'd love to check that out. I find this really interesting. Thank you.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

My city uses chlorine so I let any water that I need for topping up my tank sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine release from the water. I store the water in 4L(little over one gallon) jugs and I add one or two drops of Prime to each jug to detoxify/remove heavy metals. It works for me.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Red_Rose said:


> My city uses chlorine so I let any water that I need for topping up my tank sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine release from the water. I store the water in 4L(little over one gallon) jugs and I add one or two drops of Prime to each jug to detoxify/remove heavy metals. It works for me.


Do you just use an eyedropper to measure "drops"? Such as I could just buy on Amazon? I've been wondering this lately, when I've seen other conditioners, etc., that say to add drops and I'm wondering how to measure the drops, when no eyedropper is included.

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I just had a near-disaster in a tank by measuring incorrectly. My shrimp and snails loved eating all the dead blackworms, I just sucked up the extra with a turkey baster and there are plenty left, so disaster was in the eye of the beholder. Little snail and shrimp eyes are thinking, disaster? It was manna! Whatta ya talkin about? [smilie=b:


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Most municipals dose 1ppm of chlorine into the water.
1 gram of C (1/4 tsp) will treat 1ppm of chlorine in 100gallons.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Karen in San Jose said:


> Do you just use an eyedropper to measure "drops"? Such as I could just buy on Amazon? I've been wondering this lately, when I've seen other conditioners, etc., that say to add drops and I'm wondering how to measure the drops, when no eyedropper is included.
> 
> Sorry if this is a silly question, but I just had a near-disaster in a tank by measuring incorrectly. My shrimp and snails loved eating all the dead blackworms, I just sucked up the extra with a turkey baster and there are plenty left, so disaster was in the eye of the beholder. Little snail and shrimp eyes are thinking, disaster? It was manna! Whatta ya talkin about? [smilie=b:[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Seachem Prime/Safe does not remove heavy metals, it doesn't contain any chelators (even confirmed by Seachem). It might detoxify some ionic heavy metals, but it's only a side effect of reduction chemical (Sodium thiosulfate) and even in controlled experiments the results are not always so clear as one would expect. What is interesting, Prime is being claimed to detoxify heavy metals, but Safe not. However they are supposed to be pretty much the same product in a different form (Prime containing stabilisers). :-k

Also it most probably can't detoxify ammonia or nitrite or nitrate (I am yet to find an evidence or scientific explanation why/how it should work).

Vitamin C - ascorbic acid, is reducing agent, so IMHO it can't oxidise anything directly. I couldn't find any information that it would create some byproducts which are oxidising agents and can oxidise ammonia. However along with Sodium ascorbate (which is preferred due to less impact on pH and oxygen) it is a recommended way for large scale and environmental friendly dechlorination.

All that being said, I use Seachem Safe. It's cheap, its effects are well known (if we omit the mumbo jumbo from Seachem), it removes chlorine and chloramine (I am not sure if my country will ever switch to it, but rather be safe than sorry). Any ammonia produced during dechlorination will be utilized by plants and beneficial bacteria. To counteract possible oxygen removal I dose a bit of hydrogen peroxide with every water change. For heavy metals removal - I consider safe drinking water also safe for fish + I dose Montmorillonite clay with every water change, which among other benefits should bind heavy metals to its particles.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Red_Rose said:


> I really wish that this site was more like Reddit where you could easily voice your opinions in your own words without having to censor them or even risk getting banned for it because I would tell mysiak to go **** him/herself for constantly jumping on my posts.
> 
> I've been using Prime when I started my first Walstad tank back in 2007 and I still use it now and I've never had any problems from it. Many others use it as well so it clearly works for many people.
> 
> If certain individuals have anything else to say to me, take it up in a PM.


Excuse me?

OP asked us to repeat what has been said in the second, slighlty unrelated topic. I did it, backing up my info with scientific explanations and experiments. If you prefer anecdotal information with no science behind, be my guest. I am glad that this forum is not like reddit, full of utterly easily offended individuals.

If you want to continue discussion related to the topic, I'm open to hearing other opinions as long as they're based on science/data and not pure beliefs. But publicly please, I have no interest in PMing.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

mysiak said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> OP asked us to repeat what has been said in the second, slighlty unrelated topic. I did it, backing up my info with scientific explanations and experiments. If you prefer anecdotal information with no science behind, be my guest. I am glad that this forum is not like reddit, full of utterly easily offended individuals.
> 
> If you want to continue discussion related to the topic, I'm open to hearing other opinions as long as they're based on science/data and not pure beliefs. But publicly please, I have no interest in PMing.


OP explained what happened and then asked this:

*"Mysiak mentioned using vitamin C as a natural treatment, and others mentioned specific products they used that they have had good experiences with. Would you all mind mentioning them again here? Or if anyone has anything to add, please do?"*

She asked others what they use and their experiences with it. She did not ask people to come in and explain how what other people are using is wrong and only what one specific person is using is correct.

If a person started a post asking what kind of fish people keep with good success, would you go in and explain how it's not advisable to keep the fish others have had success with and that the only fish worth dealing with are what you have?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Red_Rose said:


> OP explained what happened and then asked this:
> 
> *"Mysiak mentioned using vitamin C as a natural treatment, and others mentioned specific products they used that they have had good experiences with. Would you all mind mentioning them again here? Or if anyone has anything to add, please do?"*
> 
> ...


OP was wrong, Mistergreen is using Vitamin C, but yes, I mentioned it as well.

"Or if anyone has anything to add" - I added info about clay. 

Btw. you also seem to have completely missed the part where I said that I use Seachem Safe product (as a dechlorinator).

But please, continue using Prime as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and heavy metals detoxifier if it makes you happy. It doesn't make it any more true though.

Again, if you have any scientific evidence, I'm all ears. I do not accept anecdotal "proof", by it we can be using just as well healing stones or homeopathy to treat our water.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> Most municipals dose 1ppm of chlorine into the water.
> 1 gram of C (1/4 tsp) will treat 1ppm of chlorine in 100gallons.


Sorry, I feel like a dunce, but if I want to treat one gallon, how would I do that? I always feel lost when it comes to figuring out what to do if I have do dose based on grams, and in just a small tank.

Even if we try to figure out how I would dose a 20 gallon tank, which would be 1/5 of 1/4 tsp right? How do I do that without having a scale that measures grams correctly?

I've also been trying to figure out how I'd dose my tank if I ever got hydra in the tank. I bought the dog worm medicine to keep in my fish tank medicine chest, but wondered how I'd figure out this kind of math with just home measuring spoons or animal syringes. I do have syringes where I can measure milliliters, so if it's a liquid amount based on milliliters, I can make that happen.

Anyway, how do you measure the dose for your tanks with the vitamin C? Or is your tank 100 gallons?

These questions may be silly to the scientists here or people better at math than me, but I am old and have no shame about my ignorance


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Red_Rose said:


> I use a basic medical dropper from the drug store that has ml for the measurements. 5 ml of Prime, which is the standard dose, will treat 50 gallons of water. 1 ml will treat 10 gallons so a drop is all I need for my 4L jugs.  The most I've used is two drops and I've never had any problems.
> 
> Not silly at all! I had to treat my tank with levamisole so if I had any worms in my tank, they are long gone now. lol I just wish I knew if my scuds were still alive. I haven't seen them in many months. :/


Brilliant! Thank you. I have a needle-less syringe that measures ml, which I use to treat my dog with Advantage (if you buy the large dog dose, then you can save money by just doing the math per pound and dosing the correct amount based on weight - waaaay cheaper). I won't be able to just get drops out of it, but I do understand what you said now.

Yes! I am trying to figure out how you figured out how to dose things like the levamisole, too. How did you do that?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

.01gram will treat 1gallon. 0.2g will treat 20gallons. Just split 1/4 tsp in half ( 1/8 )... You'll be fine. It'll bring down the pH a little but no harm. If you can buy Sodium Ascorbate instead, it won't affect the pH. I have a bag of Ascorbic acid on hand so that's what I use.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mysiak said:


> Seachem Prime/Safe does not remove heavy metals, it doesn't contain any chelators (even confirmed by Seachem). It might detoxify some ionic heavy metals, but it's only a side effect of reduction chemical (Sodium thiosulfate) and even in controlled experiments the results are not always so clear as one would expect. What is interesting, Prime is being claimed to detoxify heavy metals, but Safe not. However they are supposed to be pretty much the same product in a different form (Prime containing stabilisers). :-k
> 
> Also it most probably can't detoxify ammonia or nitrite or nitrate (I am yet to find an evidence or scientific explanation why/how it should work).
> 
> ...


Wow, so much information here. Very interesting. So, you're saying that Prime and Safe would be equally effective, as far as what they would do?

How much hydrogen peroxide and Montmorillonite clay do you add? What would the dosage per gallon be, for instance, or per 10 gallons, etc., if that's easier?


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> .01gram will treat 1gallon. 0.2g will treat 20gallons. Just split 1/4 tsp in half ( 1/8 )... You'll be fine. It'll bring down the pH a little but no harm. If you can buy Sodium Ascorbate instead, it won't affect the pH. I have a bag of Ascorbic acid on hand so that's what I use.


Perfect, thank you!


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> .01gram will treat 1gallon. 0.2g will treat 20gallons. Just split 1/4 tsp in half ( 1/8 )... You'll be fine. It'll bring down the pH a little but no harm. If you can buy Sodium Ascorbate instead, it won't affect the pH. I have a bag of Ascorbic acid on hand so that's what I use.


Also, would you use the same dosage for Sodium Ascorbate?

Another question: would the "sodium" part of sodium ascorbate add too much salt to a Walstad tank? I also think in terms of my tank not having water changed very often using this method. For instance, I wouldn't want any chemical or sodium, etc., to build up to an unhealthy level in the tank.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Red_Rose said:


> OP explained what happened and then asked this:
> 
> *"Mysiak mentioned using vitamin C as a natural treatment, and others mentioned specific products they used that they have had good experiences with. Would you all mind mentioning them again here? Or if anyone has anything to add, please do?"*
> 
> ...


Yes, personal experiences with a product is very important to me. I do also like to learn as much of the science behind why things work or don't work as my old brain can absorb.

But, as an example, I've been very successful keeping Amazon fish that are supposed to need soft water in a very hard water unplanted tank. Can't give you the science as to why I can, but I could tell you what I did so you could replicate successful results. A scientist could tell you why it works. Point being that, yes, your experience with Prime over many years is extremely valuable information, and I thank you for sharing it.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mysiak said:


> Seachem Prime/Safe does not remove heavy metals, it doesn't contain any chelators (even confirmed by Seachem). It might detoxify some ionic heavy metals, but it's only a side effect of reduction chemical (Sodium thiosulfate) and even in controlled experiments the results are not always so clear as one would expect. What is interesting, Prime is being claimed to detoxify heavy metals, but Safe not. However they are supposed to be pretty much the same product in a different form (Prime containing stabilisers). :-k
> 
> Also it most probably can't detoxify ammonia or nitrite or nitrate (I am yet to find an evidence or scientific explanation why/how it should work).
> 
> ...


Another question: Would sodium ascorbate be effective used alone? Or are you saying it would need to be combined with ascorbic acid to be effective? And how would you dose it in a hobby tank? For instance 20 gallons or per gallon?


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Karen in San Jose said:


> Wow, so much information here. Very interesting. So, you're saying that Prime and Safe would be equally effective, as far as what they would do?
> 
> How much hydrogen peroxide and Montmorillonite clay do you add? What would the dosage per gallon be, for instance, or per 10 gallons, etc., if that's easier?


Yes, Safe and Prime are both very effective at dechlorination. Just keep in mind that Prime is much easier to dose in small tanks than Safe (diluted liquid vs. pure powder). If you're after heavy metals removal, you would need to look for another product containing chelators or adsorbers (clay, activated carbon,..).

I am using Montmorillonite clay for Koi ponds (one of many nice articles describing its benefits), recommended dosage is 1g per 100l of water, which would make roughly 0.38g per 10 gallons (but please double check the math and instructions of a given product, I grew up with metric system ). It makes water cloudy for a few hours, but it's crystal clear afterwards as it binds also small floating particles and they are either removed by a mechanical filter or become part of the substrate.

For hydrogen peroxide - I am dosing "by eye" now (~30ml per 100l), but I would definitely start below these levels."_0.05 times your tank volume in litres assuming 3% solution (or 0.187x per US gallon)_" sounds to be a very safe level to start with (source with extra information). It is safer to increase the dose in tanks with a lot of dissolved organics or mulm as it reacts very quickly and breaks into water and oxygen. In very clean or bare tanks H2O2 doesn't have much to react with and it will "attack" fish gills, so it must be dosed very carefully.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Karen in San Jose said:


> Another question: Would sodium ascorbate be effective used alone? Or are you saying it would need to be combined with ascorbic acid to be effective? And how would you dose it in a hobby tank? For instance 20 gallons or per gallon?


Both are equally effective, it's in the article.  Dose has been mentioned by mistergreen, technically you would need a tad bit more of Sodium ascorbate, but practically I would dose the same amount as advised before.

_"One gram of ascorbic acid will neutralize 1 milligram per liter of chlorine per 100 gallons of water.
Approximately 2.5 parts of ascorbic acid are required for neutralizing 1 part chlorine.
Approximately 2.8 parts of sodium ascorbate are required to neutralize 1 part chlorine. "
_


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Karen in San Jose said:


> Another question: would the "sodium" part of sodium ascorbate add too much salt to a Walstad tank? I also think in terms of my tank not having water changed very often using this method. For instance, I wouldn't want any chemical or sodium, etc., to build up to an unhealthy level in the tank.


Sodium is not a problem for plants until it's up to 100ppm. 
*You're only adding 500mg/75L, that's 6ppm of Na.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

mysiak said:


> But please, continue using Prime as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and heavy metals detoxifier if it makes you happy. It doesn't make it any more true though.
> 
> Again, if you have any scientific evidence, I'm all ears. I do not accept anecdotal "proof", by it we can be using just as well healing stones or homeopathy to treat our water.


I don't use it for ammonia and nitrites. Never have. That's what the plants are for, after all.  Perhaps it works well for me because our town's tap water is better than others. I've spoken to others who have kept aquariums in town and all they do is let it degas for 24 hours. No water conditioner used and they've never had problems with fish or plants.

Karen asked for personal experiences and I provided mine. Clearly, it was acceptable for her and that's what's most important.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Red_Rose said:


> I don't use it for ammonia and nitrites. Never have. That's what the plants are for, after all.  Perhaps it works well for me because our town's tap water is better than others. I've spoken to others who have kept aquariums in town and all they do is let it degas for 24 hours. No water conditioner used and they've never had problems with fish or plants.
> 
> Karen asked for personal experiences and I provided mine. Clearly, it was acceptable for her and that's what's most important.


Ok, so you call me names because I say that it's guaranteed that it works only as a dechlorinator. Now you admit thay you use product which does exactly nothing for you (as water in your area is good on its own) and based on this experience you make claims that it works wonders. Wow, I'm honestly amazed. But yeah, if OP is happy with this kind of experience, I don't really mind.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Karen in San Jose said:


> Yes! I am trying to figure out how you figured out how to dose things like the levamisole, too. How did you do that?


I only figured it out from this website. Dosing instructions vary from 2ppm to 13ppm but the link uses 2ppm which is what I would recommend especially if you have shrimp or snails like nerites.

Using a gram scale would be easier but a lot of people wouldn't have one of those. lol On the site, it says that 1/4 tsp will treat 100 gallons. It tells you how to divide it up into even(or close to) piles that will each treat 10 gallons. I divided it up so each pile would treat 20 gallons. I would mix the dose in a bit of water and then pour it evenly around in the tank.

It's not very scientific but it works. My tank is now camallanus free.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I've asked the other moderators to delete the two most recent posts (yesterday at 6:08 PM and other today at 1:00 AM). Personal attacks are inappropriate for the El Natural forum. I realize everyone may be a little on-edge over the Covid-19 stuff, but folks, let's try to STAY COOL!


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> I've asked the other moderators to delete the two most recent posts (yesterday at 6:08 PM and other today at 1:00 AM). Personal attacks are inappropriate for the El Natural forum. I realize everyone may be a little on-edge over the Covid-19 stuff, but folks, let's try to STAY COOL!


Thanks, maybe post #9 (which started it all) could be edited/removed as well.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

mysiak said:


> Thanks, maybe post #9 (which started it all) could be edited/removed as well.


Done. And apologies to Karen whose thread was unpleasantly interrupted.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Red_Rose said:


> I only figured it out from this website. Dosing instructions vary from 2ppm to 13ppm but the link uses 2ppm which is what I would recommend especially if you have shrimp or snails like nerites.
> 
> Using a gram scale would be easier but a lot of people wouldn't have one of those. lol On the site, it says that 1/4 tsp will treat 100 gallons. It tells you how to divide it up into even(or close to) piles that will each treat 10 gallons. I divided it up so each pile would treat 20 gallons. I would mix the dose in a bit of water and then pour it evenly around in the tank.
> 
> It's not very scientific but it works. My tank is now camallanus free.


Thanks so much for this! I'm creating a document with this type of info and buying this type of stuff to have on hand, so I know what to do if something happens and I've got what I need.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Michael said:


> Done. And apologies to Karen whose thread was unpleasantly interrupted.


No worries here. I've been guilty of losing it on forums myself. I'm working on my zen lately, learning meditation and mindfulness. Not kidding lol. It's what I'm working on during lockdown. Studying Buddhist stuff. Working on my karma. It's a work in progress.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

I thought I'd update on what I've learned and decided to do for now. 

My city water supply only adds chlorine and not chloramine right now - but - they aren't promising that this can be relied upon, since the water comes from several different sources and they may change their minds without notifying us. So, I can't rely on my tap water having chlorine instead of chloramine. So, I can't just feel safe just leaving gallon jugs of tap water out for chlorine to evaporate forever, like I've been doing. Normally, if all you have is chlorine in your water (as opposed to chloramine), you can fill up jugs and let it sit out and the chlorine will evaporate. Chloramine does not evaporate.

What I've learned is that I can test for chloramine in my tap water by using a "free and total chlorine" test. If the test shows that the free chlorine is one result, but the total chlorine is a different amount which is larger than the free chlorine, that means there is chloramine in the water. Chloramine doesn't show as free chlorine, as it's bound to ammonia (which, of course, is also bad to add to your tank).

Someone mentioned that I could just test for ammonia, which makes sense. But, I thought it would be helpful to also be able to just test the jugs I have sitting out to evaporate, too, if I ever wanted to be sure there is no more chlorine in them.

And, yes, I could just add some water conditioner to the tap water, but I'd like to avoid adding unnecessary and/or mystery chemicals to the tank, whenever possible, or accidentally dose it incorrectly, which I've already done and accidentally killed creatures in my tank.

This is all likely very elementary for most of the scientists on this forum, but in case this is helpful for someone of a non-scientist background, like me, or someone who has senior moments regarding math and dosing amounts, I thought I'd mention what I've learned that seems to be a simple solution for someone like me


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You can also run your water through a carbon house filter. It'll remove any chemicals and heavy metals.
Cost wise, It'll pay for itself in a year or 2. Cost of the carbon cartridge is $10 about the price of a dechlorinator.
If it's dedicated to just aquarium water, you'd need to change the cartridge every year or every 3-4 months for the whole house.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

The only "problem" I see with using carbon filter dedicated just for water changes is that due to occasional usage it needs good flushing (output water should go straight to the drain for at least 5 minutes) before each use due to risk of bacterial contamination of cartridges. The same apllies to RO filters as far as I know - better said all filters for drinking water should be flushed in not used for more than 2-3 days (some manufacturers mention as early as 12 hours, but that sounds a bit like overkill). 

I don't know how serious risk it really is, but one should probably keep in mind that neglected water filter could be a potential source of issues.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> You can also run your water through a carbon house filter. It'll remove any chemicals and heavy metals.
> Cost wise, It'll pay for itself in a year or 2. Cost of the carbon cartridge is $10 about the price of a dechlorinator.
> If it's dedicated to just aquarium water, you'd need to change the cartridge every year or every 3-4 months for the whole house.


I love this option. Would be a natural way to make the tap water taste better, too, I imagine. I'm a renter, though. So far, I haven't found an option for one of these that is feasible for me - either they take up valuable counter space or I would need permission from management to put one under the sink. I do have a shelf where I can put gallon jugs, though, so for now that is my best option. However, if I do start to find chloramine in my tap water, it would be worth fighting my landlord over. they may allow it, if I pay for the plumber, etc.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Heck, If you're only maintaining a 5G bowl, a brita water pitcher should work.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

mysiak said:


> The only "problem" I see with using carbon filter dedicated just for water changes is that due to occasional usage it needs good flushing (output water should go straight to the drain for at least 5 minutes) before each use due to risk of bacterial contamination of cartridges.


I wonder if anyone has tried combining the filter with a UV sterilizer to reduce bacteria? Would certainly inflate the cost quite a bit, but might be a handy 'high-tech' feature.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mysiak said:


> Yes, Safe and Prime are both very effective at dechlorination. Just keep in mind that Prime is much easier to dose in small tanks than Safe (diluted liquid vs. pure powder).
> 
> For hydrogen peroxide - I am dosing "by eye" now (~30ml per 100l), but I would definitely start below these levels."_0.05 times your tank volume in litres assuming 3% solution (or 0.187x per US gallon)_" sounds to be a very safe level to start with (source with extra information). It is safer to increase the dose in tanks with a lot of dissolved organics or mulm as it reacts very quickly and breaks into water and oxygen. In very clean or bare tanks H2O2 doesn't have much to react with and it will "attack" fish gills, so it must be dosed very carefully.


Calling Mysiak!!

Two weeks ago, I had visit from fish hobbyists that tragically lost all their guppies due to Prime Water Conditioner. They said the fish were gasping at the surface. This fits with your _general idea_ that Prime and other water conditioners break the chloramine bond by chemical reduction. Too much reduction and you get oxygen depletion in the water. Makes sense. Your remedy is to add some hydrogen peroxide, an oxygenating agent.

What if people just added Prime to their buckets of replacement water and wire-whisked (kitchen tool with good wrist exercise instead of adding H2O2) the replacement water. This would oxygenate the water, maybe enough to prevent a fish kill due to oxygen depletion without adding another chemical (hydrogen peroxide).

If this is all just a matter of chemical oxygenation/reduction, the remedies could be quite simple.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

mistergreen said:


> Heck, If you're only maintaining a 5G bowl, a brita water pitcher should work.


Brita has the same risk - as described here (actually probably higher as it's never really being flushed/cleaned) and I personally stopped using it altogether.



jatcar95 said:


> I wonder if anyone has tried combining the filter with a UV sterilizer to reduce bacteria? Would certainly inflate the cost quite a bit, but might be a handy 'high-tech' feature.


In my opinion that's an overkill and very expensive setup (to be guaranteed to work), but I believe that it's already being done to treat contaminated water sources so..if you have enough space and money to "waste", why not?  Long enough flushing of the filter before each use should be enough to get rid of unwanted bacteria colonies though (at least it's recommended and considered to be safe by filter cartridges manufacturers)..


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

dwalstad said:


> What if people just added Prime to their buckets of replacement water and wire-whisked (kitchen tool with good wrist exercise instead of adding H2O2) the replacement water. This would oxygenate the water, maybe enough to prevent a fish kill due to oxygen depletion without adding another chemical (hydrogen peroxide).
> 
> If this is all just a matter of chemical oxygenation/reduction, the remedies could be quite simple.


I believe that long enough manual mechanical stirring or an air stone should definitely work when using a bucket. H2O2 is useful mainly for people who put tap water straight to the tank with a hose for example (like me). However we need to keep in mind, that water conditioners in recommended doses and normally functioning tanks should not present any problem - even if Sodium thiosulfate is oxygen scavenger, it reacts with chlorine/chloramine first and remaining molecules react with what's "left" (most probably oxygen as it's usually the second most reactive substance in the water). Risk comes with overdosing, in tanks already low in dissolved oxygen, or when someone combines more reducing chemicals (as also mentioned on the product FAQ page).


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

mysiak said:


> Brita has the same risk - as described here (actually probably higher as it's never really being flushed/cleaned) and I personally stopped using it altogether.
> .


For aquarium use, it's not a problem. You won't find any bacteria you won't find in your aquarium filter. You can remove the carbon cartridge and rinse once in a while.
Carbon house filters are commonly used in fish rooms/fish stores here in the States since they have large volume of water to change.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> Heck, If you're only maintaining a 5G bowl, a brita water pitcher should work.


I got so excited about this option, but then when I checked Brita's website, it turns out their filters don't even remove chlorine - just the odor and taste, and there is no mention of chloramine or even ammonia as something they remove. Wah. This would have been so perfect, even for me with a 17 gallon tank. I could have just filtered enough gallons for a water change, which I don't anticipate having to do very often. Just topping up the tank when it evaporates.

I buy Crystal Geyser spring water for drinking water and I just checked the water report for the California facility at Shasta and it doesn't have any chlorine or chloride or anything else that looks bad, so if my tap water ever ends up with chloramine instead of chlorine, I could just use the spring water.

The only down side to this, is that I'd have to increase the PH. Our fish have no idea what we go through


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Karen in San Jose said:


> I got so excited about this option, but then when I checked Brita's website, it turns out their filters don't even remove chlorine - just the odor and taste, and there is no mention of chloramine or even ammonia as something they remove.


Activated carbon will remove chlorine & chloramine, 99%. Trickle filter is slow enough remove the chemicals efficiently. You'll have to be diligent at changing the carbon filter.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> Activated carbon will remove chlorine & chloramine, 99%. Trickle filter is slow enough remove the chemicals efficiently. You'll have to be diligent at changing the carbon filter.


You're probably right. This says you need a catalytic carbon filter, though, to remove chloramine, that activated carbon doesn't remove chloramine:

https://www.kinetico.com/media/259769/chloramine-fact-sheet.pdf

I'm concerned that more and more hobbyists are going to end up with dead fish, not knowing their city's water system has switched over to chloramine and that they can't just leave it out to evaporate, or they use filters that don't filter out the chloramine. And then, they end up with problems with water conditioners on top of that. My crystal ball says there will be mystery fish die-offs, and it will be so sad. The cities really need to warn hobbyists. Plus, I really wonder if it's safe to drink.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Karen in San Jose said:


> You're probably right. This says you need a catalytic carbon filter, though, to remove chloramine, that activated carbon doesn't remove chloramine:
> 
> https://www.kinetico.com/media/259769/chloramine-fact-sheet.pdf


lol, they're selling a product.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mysiak said:


> I believe that long enough manual mechanical stirring or an air stone should definitely work when using a bucket. H2O2 is useful mainly for people who put tap water straight to the tank with a hose for example (like me). However we need to keep in mind, that water conditioners in recommended doses and normally functioning tanks should not present any problem - even if Sodium thiosulfate is oxygen scavenger, it reacts with chlorine/chloramine first and remaining molecules react with what's "left" (most probably oxygen as it's usually the second most reactive substance in the water). Risk comes with overdosing, in tanks already low in dissolved oxygen, or when someone combines more reducing chemicals (as also mentioned on the product FAQ page).


Wonderful. Thank you Mysiak. The simple, low-tech answer I wanted! Tapwater is often low in oxygen. People add this low oxygen tapwater to tank, then add a water conditioner that scavengers chloramine and all remaining oxygen. Thus, they end up with fish gasping at the surface and possibly dying.

The trick in using chloramine neutralizing water conditioners is simply to use the right dosage and then make sure that there's enough oxygen in the water after you do a water change.

High Tech alternative: The big fish breeders doing frequent and massive water changes install specialized activated carbon cartridges ($300 per year) to their water systems to remove the chloramine.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> lol, they're selling a product.


I understand your point. I did find this study done by a non-profit water quality association:

https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Technical/Technical Fact Sheets/2014_Chloramine.pdf

It's complicated for me to understand, but I did see that activated carbon needs to be a certain kind, and it would need 10 minutes of contact with the water to remove the chloramine, and depending on the PH, the chloramine may not be mono-chloramine and be even more difficult to remove.

I wish I could find a product for small scale hobbyists that definitely removes chloramine, with definitive proof. Something other than a really expensive whole house filtration system.

I don't have to worry about this yet, but it seems inevitable that at some point, I will.

I'm thinking it might be safest to just buy spring water with a low PH, and use Ms. Walstad's recipe to raise the PH, when the day comes that I have to deal with chloramine.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Wonderful. Thank you Mysiak. The simple, low-tech answer I wanted! Tapwater is often low in oxygen. People add this low oxygen tapwater to tank, then add a water conditioner that scavengers chloramine and all remaining oxygen. Thus, they end up with fish gasping at the surface and possibly dying.
> 
> The trick in using chloramine neutralizing water conditioners is simply to use the right dosage and then make sure that there's enough oxygen in the water after you do a water change.
> 
> High Tech alternative: The big fish breeders doing frequent and massive water changes install specialized activated carbon cartridges ($300 per year) to their water systems to remove the chloramine.


What a pain, though, don't you think? To have to be afraid that the water conditioner will deplete the oxygen in your tank? Then, you have to test for oxygen and figure out how to get oxygen in there?

I see a real market for an affordable solution to chloramine removal for the fish hobby world, that doesn't involve adding a bunch of scary chemicals to your tank and having all of these problems. Any inventors out there? Or maybe a new bottled water delivery service with chloramine-free water with a nice PH of 8 or so


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Calling Mysiak!!
> 
> Two weeks ago, I had visit from fish hobbyists that tragically lost all their guppies due to Prime Water Conditioner. They said the fish were gasping at the surface. This fits with your _general idea_ that Prime and other water conditioners break the chloramine bond by chemical reduction. Too much reduction and you get oxygen depletion in the water. Makes sense. Your remedy is to add some hydrogen peroxide, an oxygenating agent.
> 
> ...


Did your friends figure out what they did wrong? Did they dose incorrectly? How sad for them.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Karen in San Jose said:


> I understand your point. I did find this study done by a non-profit water quality association:
> 
> https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Technical/Technical Fact Sheets/2014_Chloramine.pdf
> 
> ...


You are onto something with activated carbon and chloramine removal. It seems that "standard" AC is really ineffective in chloramine removal, so must be compensated with contact time and volume of filtration media.









Source (yet another manufacturer ): http://wcponline.com/2009/06/13/chlorine-chloramine-removal-activated-carbon/

Please note that you already have been advised about the safest, efficient and quite cheap method how to remove chlorine and chloramine - Ascorbic acid (which is/was good even for chloramine removal for dialysis patients). This article also mentions that you need 200kg of carbon to filter 1000l per hour, so that makes 2kg of AC to prepare 10 liters of water in one hour (figure probably comes from this study, but I do not have access to it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6651589/).

For aquarium use, Sodium ascorbate is even better than Ascorbic acid due to minimal impact on pH and dissolved oxygen.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Interesting. The cat carbon is 10x the price but will last 5 years from what I read. I guess if you run a fish room and you have chloramine, it might be worth it.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Chloramine is not a new problem. It has been used in most water systems for many years, and we hobbyists have been using it, with Seachem Prime or equivalent, for most of that time. We have not had serious problems doing that. One reason might be that most of us do a 100% new water addition only when we first set up the tank, and we wait a week or more before adding any fish to the tank. That allows for more than enough time for the water to get oxygen in it, from the air. When we do water changes we usually only change 50% or less of the water, so we are adding much less chloramine, and we use Prime, etc., dosed based on the total water in the tank, as recommended by Seachem. I don't know why people have chloramine problems today.


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## Fraxinus (Jul 16, 2020)

Karen in San Jose said:


> What a pain, though, don't you think? To have to be afraid that the water conditioner will deplete the oxygen in your tank? Then, you have to test for oxygen and figure out how to get oxygen in there?
> 
> I see a real market for an affordable solution to chloramine removal for the fish hobby world, that doesn't involve adding a bunch of scary chemicals to your tank and having all of these problems. Any inventors out there? Or maybe a new bottled water delivery service with chloramine-free water with a nice PH of 8 or so


No one "has to" be afraid though. What we have to do is to try and not overdose our water conditioner by an order of magnitude. (Or adopt one of the other methods people have outlined, I don't work for Seachem.) The point is, the problem was human error, not "scary" chemicals.

I am sorry about what happened to your black worms. You made an unfortunate mistake, which we have all done at some point in our lives. <3


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mysiak said:


> You are onto something with activated carbon and chloramine removal. It seems that "standard" AC is really ineffective in chloramine removal, so must be compensated with contact time and volume of filtration media.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article about the dialysis patients is so interesting.

Yes, I really thank everyone for all of the information and do realize good answers have already been provided. I just can't help wanting to delve even deeper into the subject.

So, another question! [smilie=b: Or rather another comment. I just Googled (and forgive me if this was already pointed out, and my old timer's brain didn't absorb it yet) how citric acid, sodium ascorbate and sodium bisulfate each affect PH. Only sodium ascorbate doesn't affect PH, the other two lower it, which I wouldn't want.

I found this study done by the USDA and it specifically tested this on mosquito fish in a small aquarium, so is nicely relevant. It doesn't specify chloramine, just chlorine - but - it does show the effects of both citric acid and sodium ascorbate on free and total chlorine, which would include chloramine, if I am starting to understand this stuff:

[URL]https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdf/hi_res/05231301hi.pdf[/URL]

It also discusses dissolved oxygen. I haven't finished reading it, but this looks really interesting.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

Fraxinus said:


> No one "has to" be afraid though. What we have to do is to try and not overdose our water conditioner by an order of magnitude. (Or adopt one of the other methods people have outlined, I don't work for Seachem.) The point is, the problem was human error, not "scary" chemicals.
> 
> I am sorry about what happened to your black worms. You made an unfortunate mistake, which we have all done at some point in our lives. <3


I completely understand your point of view. As I learn more, though, and about effects that don't have to do with dosing incorrectly, the data includes the fact that if a chemical only treats for monochloramine - which is what we expect in our tap water - and your tap water happens to be a low PH, the water conditioner won't treat the chloramine type that you have in your tap water.

I'm no scientist, so bear with me. What I learned, is that chloramine can end up different types of chloramine, depending on the PH of the water. This is why cities raise the PH of the water, along with other reasons. Chloramine can bond to more than just one thing - not just ammonia - if the PH is low. If it's bonded to only ammonia, it's monochloramine, as I understand it.

So, let's say you have a low PH tap water (or well water or spring water, etc). You see that the Prime label says it will treat for chloramines, but it doesn't say that it won't work at a PH lower than X amount (I believe it has to be around 8, which is in one of the linked articles above). If you have tap water of say 6.5 PH, you don't have monochloramine. You have a different type. So, a chemical designed to only treat for monochloramine won't break down the type of chloramine you have in your tap water (or well water, etc.).

Then, you end up putting chlorine and ammonia into your tank, even if you dose correctly.

If I am understanding this stuff, albeit at an amateur level.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Karen in San Jose said:


> The article about the dialysis patients is so interesting.
> 
> Yes, I really thank everyone for all of the information and do realize good answers have already been provided. I just can't help wanting to delve even deeper into the subject.
> 
> ...


It's definitely interesting article, that's why I linked it already (post # 8).  But I admit that sometimes I link quite a lot of different studies (I like to support my claims with additional information/articles) and it's probably easy to miss.



Karen in San Jose said:


> I completely understand your point of view. As I learn more, though, and about effects that don't have to do with dosing incorrectly, the data includes the fact that if a chemical only treats for monochloramine - which is what we expect in our tap water - and your tap water happens to be a low PH, the water conditioner won't treat the chloramine type that you have in your tap water.


Sodium thiosulfate will react with dichloramine as well (and probably trichloramine too - but at pH below 5 you'd probably kill your livestock anyway). Ammonia released during chloramine decomposition will be handled by plants or beneficial bacteria (and at drinking water safety limit of 4ppm of chloramine it shouldn't be that much of ammonia anyway).


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

I also learned in the above, that even sodium ascorbate will lower the PH, although just minimally. So, even if Prime is using sodium ascorbate, they must also be adding a chemical to adjust PH - since they are claiming Prime doesn't affect PH.

There are also threads the Seachem community forum complaining that PH was messed up after adding Prime.

So, something is wonky here. This is my unscientific conclusion


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

mysiak said:


> It's definitely interesting article, that's why I linked it already (post # 8).  But I admit that sometimes I link quite a lot of different studies (I like to support my claims with additional information/articles) and it's probably easy to miss.
> 
> Sodium thiosulfate will react with dichloramine as well (and probably trichloramine too - but at pH below 5 you'd probably kill your livestock anyway). Ammonia released during chloramine decomposition will be handled by plants or beneficial bacteria (and at drinking water safety limit of 4ppm of chloramine it shouldn't be that much of ammonia anyway).


I really appreciate having backup to claims. My old-timer's brain missed that one  Ah, I see now that the PH must be crazy low to end up with di/trichloramine. Thank you.

I think I need to go back and re-read everything. This stuff is difficult for me to absorb, so I apologize if I'm reiterating things that have already been covered. I really appreciate the discussion.


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## mysiak (Jan 17, 2018)

Karen in San Jose said:


> I also learned in the above, that even sodium ascorbate will lower the PH, although just minimally. So, even if Prime is using sodium ascorbate, they must also be adding a chemical to adjust PH - since they are claiming Prime doesn't affect PH.
> 
> There are also threads the Seachem community forum complaining that PH was messed up after adding Prime.
> 
> So, something is wonky here. This is my unscientific conclusion


Prime doesn't use Sodium ascorbate nor Ascorbic acid. It's most probably Sodium thiosulfate, or its precursor or very similar sulfate based reducing chemical (easy to verify as Prime and Safe smell like sulfur, their dosage is very low and there is a real risk admitted even by Seachem about oxygen depletion). Their MSDS says that it's "proprietary blend of sodium salts", which basically refers to Sodium thiosulfate. Safe is uniform pure salt, I seriously doubt that there is more than one chemical included (I might be wrong of course, however Seachem will not reveal it's content, so..).


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Keep in mind that the Ascorbates lower pH very little if dose correctly. The chart in the link https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/html/05231301/05231301.html used 5G of tap water. It's an experiment 20x the dosage.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Karen in San Jose said:


> I'm thinking it might be safest to just buy spring water with a low PH, and use Ms. Walstad's recipe to raise the PH, when the day comes that I have to deal with chloramine.


Please! I was not talking about pH. My recipe for oxygenating the water (wire-whisk water vigorously to add copious air oxygen) after adding a water conditioner has nothing to do with pH. I was merely providing a simple means to add oxygen to the water after neutralizing chloramine. Oxygenating the water may keep fish from dying from oxygen depletion.

Mysiak adds H2O2 to oxygenate water after adding chloramine. I would just try adding air oxygen manually. The main thing is being aware of the problem and watching your fish carefully after a water change. If they're gasping at the surface, now you'll have some idea of what to do.

This is not rocket science.


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## FromReefs2Plants (Aug 14, 2017)

There is no reason to run the water through an RO/DI system correct? I have been using API stress coat + for years with no issues. Claims to remove chlorines and chloramines as well as detoxify heavy metals. I don't care about the heavy metal bit. 

I am glad this site is nothing like reddit as anyone who has used a real forum knows that reddit is no where close to as useful.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yes, using a dechlorinator is fine, preferred for hobbyists. We’re listing alternatives.


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## Karen in San Jose (Jun 1, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Please! I was not talking about pH. My recipe for oxygenating the water (wire-whisk water vigorously to add copious air oxygen) after adding a water conditioner has nothing to do with pH. I was merely providing a simple means to add oxygen to the water after neutralizing chloramine. Oxygenating the water may keep fish from dying from oxygen depletion.
> 
> Mysiak adds H2O2 to oxygenate water after adding chloramine. I would just try adding air oxygen manually. The main thing is being aware of the problem and watching your fish carefully after a water change. If they're gasping at the surface, now you'll have some idea of what to do.
> 
> This is not rocket science.


Sorry for any confusion in how I communicated. I was referring to your separate thread where you have a recipe on how to increase PH for people with soft water. Most spring water that I could buy where chlorine and chloramines would not be an issue have a low PH, they're soft water. I was saying that if my city ever ends up adding chloramine, that I'd be most comfortable just buying, for instance, Crystal Geyser spring water. But, I'd want to increase the PH, which I could do with your recipe for increasing PH. I wasn't referring to your post about oxygen or what Mysiak said. I was talking about something else entirely - another option regarding just buying spring water and then increasing the PH of the spring water with your safe recipe for that.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Still some confusion. My recipe* is not for increasing pH*. Indeed, one would prefer a lower pH for plants, as it makes CO2 more available to plants.

My recipe (my book, p. 87) is for providing hardwater nutrients (Ca, K, Mg, etc) to plants. I purposely use CaCl2, *because it does not raise the pH.* If you use CaCO3 (as in dolomite lime, oyster shells, sea shells, etc), you will increase the pH, which is something that I would try to avoid.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Still some confusion. My recipe* is not for increasing pH*. Indeed, one would prefer a lower pH for plants, as it makes CO2 more available to plants.
> 
> My recipe (my book, p. 87) is for providing hardwater nutrients (Ca, K, Mg, etc) to plants. I purposely use CaCl2, *because it does not raise the pH.* If you use CaCO3 (as in dolomite lime, oyster shells, sea shells, etc), you will increase the pH, which is something that I would try to avoid.


Won't baking soda, as part of increasing carbonate hardness, increase pH? Is there any way to avoid that, if you want to keep the water soft? I thought kH and pH are pretty inexorably linked, though I must admit to not being too familiar with the chemistry behind it


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) will increase KH and pH but not GH. That's because it contains no calcium or magnesium. 

GH, pH, and KH are all different measurements. 

I would suggest that aquarium hobbyists--at least those on the El Natural forum--learn the difference between the 3 measurements. This is not rocket science, just high-school chemistry.

Calcium chloride will provide calcium for shrimp shells and plant growth, but it will not raise KH or pH.


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## chodovet (Jul 17, 2020)

Is it fair to say that KH and pH are linked, but GH is separate? Because KH is the carbonate hardness, and carbonates act as buffers and therefore will raise pH?

I've found many people think soft water is associated with low pH, but I know from personal experience with my own carbonate-rich soft tap water that that definitely isn't the case...

It gets complicated for me when trying to figure out the ideal parameters for certain species of fish. I know guppies need high GH water, do they also prefer a higher pH? In contrast to most tetra species, which prefer acidic water (and lower GH?).


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

chodovet said:


> Is it fair to say that KH and pH are linked, but GH is separate? Because KH is the carbonate hardness, and carbonates act as buffers and therefore will raise pH?
> 
> I've found many people think soft water is associated with low pH, but I know from personal experience with my own carbonate-rich soft tap water that that definitely isn't the case...
> 
> It gets complicated for me when trying to figure out the ideal parameters for certain species of fish. I know guppies need high GH water, do they also prefer a higher pH? In contrast to most tetra species, which prefer acidic water (and lower GH?).


Yes, KH and pH are linked. The more bicarbonates, the higher the KH and pH. Bicarbonates/carbonates make up the major buffering systems of most natural waters and tanks.

Treatment plants often add bicarbonates to soft, acidic water to bring the pH up so that the water doesn't leach metal from the pipes. Thus, the water has a high pH and KH but a low GH. Problem is that there's not much calcium or magnesium nutrients for plants, fish, etc.

GH is determined by the combined levels of dissolved calcium and magnesium. If you add calcium chloride, this will not affect KH or pH, because it does not contain bicarbonates. That's why I like to use CaCl2 to increase water hardness. In contrast, CaCO3 (calcium carbonate), the major ingredient of sea shells, lime, oyster grit, etc, will increase pH, because it contains carbonates. CaCO3 also takes a long time to dissolve, whereas calcium chloride dissolves immediately.

Guppies are very adaptable. They don't need a high pH or a GH higher than the GH = 6 that I recommend in keeping plants, shrimp, snails, etc healthy.

Don't let the fuddy duddys make aquarium keeping too complicated. If you are breeding Tetras, yes, you would want to provide them with soft, acidic water. Otherwise, tetras will do fine with normal water conditions.

Finally, the pH in a tank will fluctuate depending on the amount of plant photosynthesis, # of fish, water movement, etc so you really can't predict it that much.


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