# Please help my sick blue ram!



## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

I acquired these fish (two males and one female) from the Chicago Cichlid convention the day after Thanksgiving for me. My friend who bought them for me quarantined them for a couple of days for me (not long enough, I know!) and they looked fine in my tank until this weekend. They weren't eating flakes, so I bought them frozen bloodworms. One male and one female ate, the other did not. The color on all three fish was drab and they were just hanging at the surface. I noticed my heater was broken, and my temp was down to 73F! On Tue, I bought a new heater and have gradually raised my temp to 80.3F. Color has improved on all 3 rams and the one male and female who have been eating swim more vigorously. Neither fish hang from the surface any more. 

Today, the one male who has never eaten has taken a turn for the worse. He no longer swims much and just rests on the leaves of my plants. He has become bloated and I just noticed white feces coming out of him. The other two fish are passing normal feces. 

What can I do? This poor male obviously has some parasite infection. I don't think that he will eat a de-worming medicine; he hasn't eaten, yet. Is there something that I can use to treat the water that will not harm shrimp? 
Is there anything else that I can do? 

Some details on my tank:
-Set up on Oct. 1
-Heavily planted. Plants are healthy with a small amount of algae.
-29gal with Fluval 204, soil master select substrate
-EI dosing regimen as per the fert forum sticky post
-2 bottles DIY CO2
-Curent temp. 80.3F
-Ammonia:0 (this is all that I have a test for)

Inhabitants:
Cherry shrimp
Pond snails
2 ottos
5 dwarf neon rainbows
3 threadfin rainbows
6 harlequin rasboras
3 rams

All other fish seem happy

Thanks for your patience with this long post! This is my first tank ever and I am a total beginner!


Kelley


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Sounds like constipation with possible bacterial infection. If you can get the ram to eat a bit of blanched deskinned pea, that is supposed to help. Food treated with metronidizole is good for internal problems. Of course, if the ram refuses to eat, neither suggestion will do much good.

Some people suggest adding magnesium via epsom salts, but this may not be the best idea for a planted tank. If you had a hospital tank, you could add a teaspoon or so epsom salt per 10 gallon, and raise the temp to the mid eighties.

Another option is just letting him be if no fish are bugging him. It's entirely possible the condition will pass in a couple days, but for a fish stressed from moving, temp variations, etc. there are no guarantees.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

You should do the epsom salt thing for an hour or 2, but if you don't have a 10 gallon, you can scale down, say get a bowl, measure 1 gallon of water, add 1/8 teaspoon of the epsom salt, and leave him in there for 2 hours.
I would warm the water up to 84 deg before putting him in, then do a normal acclimation for 15 to 30 min before you put him in there. After he is aclimated, then you leave him in for the hour or 2.

Of course after this you should get him back in his tank, you will have to re acclimate him to that tank for 15 to 30 min before you relese him.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

I have a 20L i can set up as a hospital tank. It isn't cycled is that okay? 
The other two rams nibble a bit of my hygro. Maybe he can cure himself if he takes a bite.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

If you are just going to do the epsom salt think for a few hours, it should be fine providing the ammonai isn't spiking now, if it is you will have to put all new water in the tank while you treat the fish.
Even if it isn't actually spiking, even if you are getting the slightest reading, change the water.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks for these tips, goalcreas and Minsc. I will try the treatment tonight. I hope the little guy makes it!


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

The poor little guy didn't live long enough for me to treat him.  

The other to are thriving, at least.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I am terribly sorry to hear that.
Glad your others are doing good, if you are looking to get any more,
I know a great breeder here in Phoenix, he sells them for around $4 each, and if you buy 5 for $20 you are more likely to get 6 to 8 of them.
Guarenteed alive and shipping is very reasonable.
You can PM me and I can get you the proper e-mail for him, or go to aquabid and look up seller discusgeorge.
I have found that they tend to do better in groups anyways, so if you have the room, adding 2 to 6 more rams would be great for them.

Remember the keys to keeping rams are to keep the water no less then 80 degrees, 82 would be better and 84 great, however some of your plants may not survive past 82.
The other is manditory 30 to 50% water changes weekly, but 2 times would be better, but same amounts, if you do two ,don't expect that 10 to 20% would be alright, keep them up to 30 to 50% of the total volume of water in your tank.
Happy Ram keeping, these are spectacular fish.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks for tips on where to but rams. Maybe after Christmas, we'll see! 


I am taking your advice about temperature and raising it to 82. Every day the two remaining rams seem happier and happier. The male has gotten a little territorial and is chasing the other fish. They are even digging a bit by my anubias. Could they be getting ready to spawn? If so, I'd better get that other tank ready!


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

They absolutly could be cleaning a spawning site.
Now, though I have heard of others doing so, I can't get eggs to hatch in hard water. I have a pair right now in a 10 gallon with some rocks for hiding and spawning and I put pure RO water in it. I set up this tank because of 3 failed attempts in the community planted tank they are in with tap water.
This next time should be the charm. I have since had a 2nd pair spawn in the Tap tank, and so far they heve gone longer without being eaten, but have yet to hatch.
Now this next time or two I am still going to attempt to parent raise the fry, or at least hatch the fry, if after another try or two they still eat the eggs / fry, I will start to pull the parents after they spawn. 
Rams can and will be good parents if you let them, but there will always be some pairs that can't figure that out.
If you go with a RO water tank for the pair, you will first have to acclimate them to that RO (assuming they are in tap now) and you should make the switch to the breeding tank with same water they are in now, and each day change out approx 20% with tap until in about 4 to 5 days they will be in pure RO. Once the fry are free swimming, you can change them back to tap, a little slower, maybe changing 5% to 10% of tap back in to get them completly back to tap within 7 to 14 days.
It is much easier to have rams that will acclimate to most peoples tanks if you get them back to tap quickly, they can always go back to RO, but raising them in just RO and any buyers who don't use RO might not get the fish to do well.
This info is to the best of my knowledge from reading, and from talking with several people I know who have had much success breading them. There may be some who disagree, or who have some to add to this advice, I encourage anyone to correct me, or to just put your two cents in to help kelley.

Good luck, if at first they don't succeed, then try try again.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Also, I think your shrimp and snails will be fine in 82 degree water, but I have never kept rainbows, are they ok to go to 82, if they need it cooler, you might need to stay around 80.3. If the 82 is too hot for them, it can cause stress which can lead to disease, and that could affect your whole ecosystem.
Again I do not know how to keep rainbows, but I urge you to find out if the 82degree temp will be ok for your tanks other inhabitants before you leave it at that temp for a long time.
If they need the cooler water, you are going to have to find a happy medium for all.


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## star rider (Feb 27, 2006)

Just curious.

are these Blue Rams or Bolivian Rams..

Blues are a bit more sensitive to water parameters.

the bolivians can tolerate less than pritine water..but you should try to keep it pristine.(it never hurts)

my Bolivians spawn about every 2-3 weeks..but I have angels spawning , discus spawning, and rams (bolivian) I would love to raise some but don't have quite enough grow out tanks.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Star rider, they are Blue rams. Thanks for the tip about keeping pristine water for them. 

Goalcreas, again, thanks so much for all of this helpful info! If these guys start to spawn, I will set up an RO water tank for them. The water in Iowa is as hard as a rock! I think that is why it's really hard to find these fish around here. If I could manage to raise a few fry and acclimate them to our water, I could certainly sell them. I've already had a couple of friends ask! 

As for the temeperature issue, I'm glad you are looking out for me! I did a little reading and found that my rainbows are okay up to 82 degrees. I will try 81.5. I don't want to lose any of them. 

Thanks again, everyone!


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## star rider (Feb 27, 2006)

Kelley,
RO water is not actually needed fi you just want to raise rams(blue) 

the rams will be able to adapt to a higher pH ..the eggs probably won't fertilize tho.

the rams need acicid water low pH the minerals affect the casing on the egg making it tougher..unless the male can immediately fertilize the eggs the chance of successful spawns diminish.


you can try mxing RO with tap to lower the pH..I would not recommend using pure RO as there are no(very little) minerals in RO.

I'm pretty lucky as recent changes have occurred in my tap.

pH is at 6.8, kH is 3 gH is 5 . the Sa cichlids are having successful spawns.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Star Rider, thanks for pointing out my mistake, I did not mean pure RO, I do mix with about 20% to 30% of my tap and that gives me a good 3 to 4 deg GH that I need.


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## star rider (Feb 27, 2006)

goalcreas,
I didn't think that was what you meant 
but I have read on some forum where that is what they do..which means that you need to do daily water changes...and lots of it.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I actually change 80% every other day in the breeder tank. and once a week do a 100% clean unless there are eggs.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

*Good news!*

My rams spawned yesterday!! I don't know if they will hatch because my water is rock hard, but they were still fanning the eggs and actively fending off marauders this morning. When I stuck my hand in the tank last night to trim some moss, the male even attacked me!

Who knows, at the age of 29, I may become a grandma to some fish babies!


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

Congratulations, I would just leave them ans see what happens.
I also have a clutch of eggs that has been there for 3 days now and they haven't yet eaten them and still defend them, but I would have expected wigglers by now, so I will have to just wait and see.

In the same tank another pair (the pair that resides in the 10 gal breeding tank now) laid eggs the day after thanksgiving.
I thought I lost all of those eggs, but last night when doing regular tank cleaning, I pulled out some rock formations and placed them in a bucket.
Went about my business and when going back to that bucket, there were two itty bitty fish in there.
I couldn't locate any more, so there may or may not be more in the tank.
I also don't know if they are Rams or not.
I kind of think they were apisto's, I have a pair of A. Cacatoides, and she sure was in breeding colors, I never saw any eggs but she is all over that tank all the time.

At that time last night the only thing I was set up for was to relese them back into the tank and see if they make it. I put them in a heavily planted area so that might give them a chance, but I will say, my first small fish, even though it was unplanned (like my first and 3rd daughters), it was very exciting and rewarding to have happen.

The 2nd daughter of mine, Madilyn who is 4 about to turn 5 in the end of January was my only planed child, but I love and enjoy them all, even the 2 year old who is a royal PITA.

Good luck hope you get lots of Fry GrandMa!


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

The info I gave for buying Rams on aquabid was wrong, it is not seller "discusgeorge"

It is seller "Georgegarcia"

Sorry for any inconvienience.


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