# Getting Frustrated...and Hello!



## C.Anderson

First I'd like to say hello, and thanks in advance for bearing with any impatience and/or irritation I may end up showing in an 'introduction' post!

Now...about me and my tank(s). Currently I have a 130gal freshwater _fish_ tank. The key word here is fish. Recently at a local Petsmart I decided to pick up some of the more attractive aquatic plants they had in. I've owned a few tanks in the past, and was always just disappointed with the plastic junk that was available. Soooo, aquatic plants. The first plant I chose was some kind of onion thing (2 of them)...that's what it said on the plant tab, but I'm assuming that's as reliable as looking at the label on the tank to see what kind of fish is in it eh? It looks like a cross between 'Crinum thaianum' and 'Vallisneria americana' (please don't let the scientific names fool you...I haven't a clue...those pictures are close though). Long thinner leaves, but with a smaller bulb at the bottom. I also bought 3 of what look like 'Parrot Fern' (my current favorite I think), and also multiple (around 12), very cool sword looking plants that I've been told now aren't aquatic, and are for terrariums etc.

These plants replaced EVERY piece of junk plastic in the tank...and I have to say I absolutely love it. The fish seem happier, and the tank is much more natural. I have a nice centerpiece of Mopani, a bit of sandstone, and some accent pieces of Mopani as well. The effect over black colorquartz is pretty nice.

This leads us to my problem. First...I highly doubt that 3m type s black colorquartz, my fish, and a few local fertalizer tabs are going to be enough to support even the relatively small number of plants I have. This has lead me to this incredibly varied world of 'planted tanks'. I'm impressed...but a 'planted tank' as I see most of you guys using the term is far, far more than I need or want for my system lol. My tank is a wall divider for my living room and kitchen. I want and NEED to be able to see through it. I'd be happy with less than a third of the plantings I've noted in some of the incredible tanks I see on this site! Compounding this problem (and actually the cause of it) is the fact that I'm upgrading my 130gal to a 300gal this weekend. The 130 is 72"x18"x24, and the 300 is 120"x24"x24". Since it's coming empty...now is a good time to do whatever I need to do in order to maintain a 'fair' amount of live plants (maybe double what I have now...or a bit more, tastefully placed so as not to reduce visibility too much)...without going overboard. Cost is a minor issue...excepting anything I can buy at Home Depot (basically unlimited company card...small perk of your own business).

So, what it comes down to is this. After over a week of reading endlessly confusing, convoluted...and contradicting posts, threads, and articles...I'm about resigned to replacing dead plants once a month to keep this thing looking how I want it. The questions I have are...do I absolutely NEED C02? I love my air bubblers...with a wall divider tank bubbles through the center are attractive (the wife is demanding this too...her allowing me a tank actually required bubbles lol). Do I need to put some kind of filler layer of a gravel type substrate under my sand? My tanks are often built up below the water level with sanitized bricks in order to eliminate some of the expense of sand/gravel (I like a lot of varied surface elevation in the bottom of my tanks..high in the center and on the outside edges etc), how is this going to affect planting and keeping the roots happy? I don't think it will impact things too much as long as I leave room between the bricks for gravel or whatever inexpensive substrate you guys suggest...and it's not like I pave the bottom lol. Last but not least...this 300gal acrylic tank is absolutely immaculate, tha last thing I need is some HUGE algae bloom coming and wiping it out where I've got to clean it continuously! Lighting shouldn't be a problem...I have 4 40w blue actinic fluorescents, 4 40w GE 'Daylight' fluorescents, and 2 LED moonlight strips...I assume this is sufficient?

Anyhow, I know this is a lot of questions (and very demanding I'm sure...my apologies!)...and trust me I'm going to read through as much of this site as I can in order to find the answers! I just have yet, on ANY of these sites...to find any information for the 'casual planter' like me =/.

Thanks in advance guys and gals!!

Cris


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## BryceM

Hmmm. A 300g planted tank is not what I'd typically recommend to start learning with.

First, you need to define what sort of planted tank you'd like to end up with, then figure out how to achieve it. From your post, it sounds like moderate light, no CO2 is what you're after.

This limits your plant choices, but in reality, it doesn't sound like that will be a problem for you. Replacing plants once per month means you're doing something wrong, or you're chosing species that aren't compatilbe with a moderate-light, no CO2 setup.

Light is the first priority. Actinic light will do nothing for a FW tank. Get rid of them or change the bulbs to something else. This leaves you with only 4x40W = 160W of decent fluorescents of an unknown type. This is certainly NOT sufficient for a planted tank. No species of plant will survive for long at that light level over a 300g tank. Convert the 4 actinics to proper FW bulbs (6,500K to 10,000K) and you're still at the lower edge of what would be deemed appropriate for a low-light setup. If you're talking about T5 bulbs with good reflectors, you're getting close. If you're talking about T8 bulbs in a shoplight-type setup, you're still WAY short of what you need.

For a 300g tank of 24" depth, I'd recommend about 1.5 or 2 watts/gallon of high-quality lighting. This means T5, Metal halide, or at the very least, compact fluorescents with good reflectors. You'll be in the realm of medium light intensity at this level.

Swords, anubias, vals, crypts, mosses, and ferns will do very nicely. Certain stem plants will do ok, but not the majority of them. Carpeting foreground plants are out of the question.

Substrate is issue number two. You can use an inert substrate but it makes fertilizing a bit more finicky. I'd recommend at least some sort of "plant" substrate. There are tons of choices. The cheapest for a monster of that size would be Soilmaster Select.

Terracing is fine. The roots will find their happy places easily enough.

Algae is always a potential, especially if this is your first serious attempt at a planted tank.

Read www.rexgrigg.com. He's a bit brash, but the advice is good.

Oh, and welcome to APC!


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## jmontee

Hello and welcome Cris,

See the bolded areas below.



C.Anderson said:


> First I'd like to say hello, and thanks in advance for bearing with any impatience and/or irritation I may end up showing in an 'introduction' post!
> 
> Now...about me and my tank(s). Currently I have a 130gal freshwater _fish_ tank. The key word here is fish. Recently at a local Petsmart I decided to pick up some of the more attractive aquatic plants they had in. I've owned a few tanks in the past, and was always just disappointed with the plastic junk that was available. Soooo, aquatic plants. The first plant I chose was some kind of onion thing (2 of them)...that's what it said on the plant tab, but I'm assuming that's as reliable as looking at the label on the tank to see what kind of fish is in it eh? It looks like a cross between 'Crinum thaianum' and 'Vallisneria americana' (please don't let the scientific names fool you...I haven't a clue...those pictures are close though). Long thinner leaves, but with a smaller bulb at the bottom. I also bought 3 of what look like 'Parrot Fern' (my current favorite I think), and also multiple (around 12), very cool sword looking plants that I've been told now aren't aquatic, and are for terrariums etc.
> 
> These plants replaced EVERY piece of junk plastic in the tank...and I have to say I absolutely love it. The fish seem happier, and the tank is much more natural. I have a nice centerpiece of Mopani, a bit of sandstone, and some accent pieces of Mopani as well. The effect over black colorquartz is pretty nice.
> 
> This leads us to my problem. First...I highly doubt that 3m type s black colorquartz, my fish, and a few local fertalizer tabs are going to be enough to support even the relatively small number of plants I have. This has lead me to this incredibly varied world of 'planted tanks'. I'm impressed...but a 'planted tank' as I see most of you guys using the term is far, far more than I need or want for my system lol. My tank is a wall divider for my living room and kitchen. I want and NEED to be able to see through it. I'd be happy with less than a third of the plantings I've noted in some of the incredible tanks I see on this site! Compounding this problem (and actually the cause of it) is the fact that I'm upgrading my 130gal to a 300gal this weekend. The 130 is 72"x18"x24, and the 300 is 120"x24"x24". Since it's coming empty...now is a good time to do whatever I need to do in order to maintain a 'fair' amount of live plants (maybe double what I have now...or a bit more, tastefully placed so as not to reduce visibility too much)...without going overboard. Cost is a minor issue...excepting anything I can buy at Home Depot (basically unlimited company card...small perk of your own business).
> 
> So, what it comes down to is this. After over a week of reading endlessly confusing, convoluted...and contradicting posts, threads, and articles...I'm about resigned to replacing dead plants once a month to keep this thing looking how I want it. The questions I have are...do I absolutely NEED C02? I love my air bubblers...with a wall divider tank bubbles through the center are attractive (the wife is demanding this too...her allowing me a tank actually required bubbles lol).
> 
> *It depends on the type of plants you want. You can also use Flourish Excel as a carbon source, the building block of life, but it is expensive and for tank that size will get costly very fast. In this case you can still have the bubbles. Some plants are not very CO2 (or light) demanding, anubias, java ferns and mosses.*
> 
> Do I need to put some kind of filler layer of a gravel type substrate under my sand? My tanks are often built up below the water level with sanitized bricks in order to eliminate some of the expense of sand/gravel (I like a lot of varied surface elevation in the bottom of my tanks..high in the center and on the outside edges etc), how is this going to affect planting and keeping the roots happy?
> 
> *If you use the rhizome plants (see above) and mosses then the roots do not have to be in the gravel. These plants can be attached to rocks or driftwood and are really beautiful when placed well in a tank.*
> 
> I don't think it will impact things too much as long as I leave room between the bricks for gravel or whatever inexpensive substrate you guys suggest...and it's not like I pave the bottom lol. Last but not least...this 300gal acrylic tank is absolutely immaculate, tha last thing I need is some HUGE algae bloom coming and wiping it out where I've got to clean it continuously!
> 
> *This is almost 100% of the time going to happen in a newly established tank. Some amount of algae is absolutely normal in a planted aquarium. Flourish excel has some algicidal properties that have yet to be explained but will work for you if you want to use this as you carbon source. *
> 
> Lighting shouldn't be a problem...I have 4 40w blue actinic fluorescents, 4 40w GE 'Daylight' fluorescents, and 2 LED moonlight strips...I assume this is sufficient?
> 
> *Not really. The actinics do absolutely nothing for aquatic plants. Also even for "low light plants" (also see above plant list) it is uaually recommended to have about 1.5 watts per gallon. This would mean 450W of 5500 to 10000k full spectrum lighting for your tank. *
> 
> Anyhow, I know this is a lot of questions (and very demanding I'm sure...my apologies!)...and trust me I'm going to read through as much of this site as I can in order to find the answers! I just have yet, on ANY of these sites...to find any information for the 'casual planter' like me =/.
> 
> *Please do read as much as you can on the subject. You have a big task ahead of you seeing as your starting with a mini pond in your house. I wish I could do something like that but it would take up half my apartment and besides I don't have enough money in both my and my wifes bank accounts to get into it, LOL.*
> 
> Thanks in advance guys and gals!!
> 
> *Your welcome*.
> 
> Cris


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## jmontee

C.,

Sorry for the repeated answers, I was writing while Guaiac was answering your questions better than I could. 

Jorge


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## seattle_530

You would be really surprised at how many low tech plants are out there. Im starting a low tech myself (no c02 and 2watts per g). If you get schultz aquatic soil its pretty cheap, $7 per 10lbs bag. i have to agree though breakin in on the planted tank with a 300 gallon is a bold move. Just remember with more light means more of everything else so if your not planning on fertilizing on a regular basis dont go about 2 watts a gallon and stick to anubias, ferns, moses, some hygrophila,dwarf sagateria just to name afew. If you scape it right you can have a nice tank with low light plants.


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## C.Anderson

First I want to say thank you guys for your quick answers. You've helped me out quite a bit.

After reading your posts I guess my main questions were is it possible to have a 'partially' planted tank so to speak...or is it an 'if you're in, your in...if not, get out!' type thing. I'm starting to think that whether I want 1 plant or 100, it's an all or nothing ordeal!! The second question was regarding substrate. Almost everything else I need to do if I make the big plunge into planted aquaria I can do after the fact. The substrate is kinda now or never, particularly with a 300g tank, and you've helped with that a ton. There are SO many choices...and if you don't know a particular name it's sort of hard to research. Try Googling 'substrate' lol. The Soilmaster Select charcoal seems to be a good fit with my plans, and maybe it's possible I might be able to get it ordered in at Home Depot...making the cost a write off =).

By the way...this kind of setup is what you meant, right:
http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Soilmaster-Select-Substrate/26/

If so, that would be relatively easy...and whether I chose to do any real planting or not...the option would be there. I don't usually keep the 'mulm' out of my tank...but I haven't completed my water change this last week, so I could probably just hold off and mix the existing black sand (which is in the 130gal atm...the colorquartz is in bags waiting for the 300gal) up some...then mix that into some of the Soilmaster in order to make the bio mix deal. I could then use the colorquartz as the top cover. I think that would actually cover the substrate for me and lay the groundwork in place for future planting. Just getting me past that has helped a lot...my thanks again.

So...for the next question. If I covered the substrate as listed above. the lighting as advised...and used fertilizer sticks to help with growth per plant...is there any way at all to get around the C02/bubble issue? What I mean is...do I need a certain amount of C02 per plant, or is it actually per gallon of water? The reason I ask is depending on the 'losses' induced by the bubbles, is it possible to overcompensate by injecting more C02? So far it seems the most expensive part of C02 injection is the setup. After that the gas is extremely cheap. The fact that I can setup C02 to run through my cannisters is nice too...and makes it easier to do after the tank is set up. I'm not real enamored of the idea of constantly adding chemicals in order to keep the plants alive. I worked for a long time before to make my fish tanks almost care for themselves...both in fauna choice, and filtering. Monthly water changes were about all they needed...along with occasional media swaps. I know an even lightly planted tank will require more care than that, but I'm hoping that with my few plants I can still get away with bi-weekly attention.

Anyhow, thanks again for all the help. It's more appreciated than you can imagine. I'm not a person who usually tries to do things halfway. I just didn't realize exactly how complicated throwing some plants into water to grow is. It's worse than fish!!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Oh one other thing. Here are the plants I've bought already. The 'parrot fern' ones and the long onion things seem to be doing ok...with no fertilizer etc (it's only been a few weeks, I'm SURE this will not last!). The others are the ones that aren't really aquatic so I'm told. Any chance you guys recognize these things?









_Not a good picture of the onion lol, there's actually a narrow white bulb on it just below the sand line. Lots of critters pile the sand up in that spot._









_Sword looking things to the left, fern to the right._









_Forgot this cactus grass looking thing, and another of the odd sword looking plants._
Please ignore the roman ruins...the wife 'had to have them' until I turned her on to the sandstone that matches the mopani lol

One other bit of good news...with my contractors discount at Lesco...I get the Soilmaster Select Charcoal at 12$ a bag after signing up online at Lesco. Turns out they have 6 50lb bags in stock at our local store as well so I can pick it up this week to be ready for the big tank this weekend.

Thanks again!!

Cris


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## Tex Gal

The plants you showed are not aquatic. They will die.

With low light and plant fertilizer I don't think you need to do CO2. I had a planted tank for years without CO2. I used root tabs. I had the recommended amount of root tabs. It wasn't until I went to high light and difficult plants that I needed CO2. I used the crypts, java ferns, anubias, Vals, etc. They grew fine. I did have to do water changes. I also had inert substrate.

I think you can accomplish the see-through need you have by keeping part of the tank open at the top with short plants in certain areas. In other areas you could have paths between tall plants. The variety will make it interesting.

I do think the air bubbles will work against your plant growth. It may be that the air bubbles will make CO2 necessary. It wasn't until I gave up my "air wand" that my plants did well. Why not show your wife the beautiful tank pxs here with out the air bubbles and see what she says? She may just like them. You could use mosses tied to things with the current (power head) blowing on them to add movement in the tank. It's probably the movement and life that she is drawn to. The plants can be swaying in your tank.

Good luck. I'll keep watch to see what happens.


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## BryceM

Getting enough CO2 into a 300g tank to make a difference is difficult on a good day. A 20lb cylinder would last only 3 or 4 months. You could go bigger, but they're a real pain to manhandle and keep out of sight if you go too big. I really don't think you'd be able to use a bubble stream either. Too much gas would be wasted unless you stuck with something small.

Also, injecting CO2 into a canister filter at this scale won't work. You'd need a pretty rapid stream of CO2 and I think you'd find most of it coming out the filter undissolved. I'd recommend a series of diffusors or an in-line reactor of some sort.

Honestly, considering what you're trying to do, I'd avoid CO2 and stick with less demanding species. I kept a very nice tank without CO2 before upgrading.

Congratulations of finding the SMS. It's often hard to locate.

Avoiding high light and CO2 will probably allow you to keep fertilizing to a minimum. Root tablets would suffice just fine.


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## BryceM

jmontee said:


> C.,
> 
> Sorry for the repeated answers, I was writing while Guaiac was answering your questions better than I could.
> 
> Jorge


Jorge, not at all!! I feel like appologizing to you for ninja posting. There's great value in hearing similar advice from more than one person.


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## xandert

C.Anderson said:


> _Sword looking things to the left, fern to the right._


*This looks like a species of Dracaena. It's a houseplant. Most definitely not an aquarium plant. In fact, Dracaenas don't tend to like having their feet wet all the time, much less soaking, and they will rot pretty quickly as a result. I think that particular one may be Dracaena fragrans (corn plant) or something related to it.... 
*


> _Forgot this cactus grass looking thing, and another of the odd sword looking plants._


*This one looks familiar, too, but I can't quite place it..... I'm a houseplant nut, too, so I've had a lot of various species in this house over the years. Still do. This one reminds me of the narrow leaved varieties of Dracaena, but I'm not sure that's what it is.

Unfortunately, a lot of places are selling submerged houseplants as aquarium plants, and they are doomed. Houseplants don't generally survive submerged. Even bog plants can't generally survive long term totally submerged. I wish LFS would stop selling them, but too much money in it I suppose.  *


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## C.Anderson

xandert said:


> *
> Unfortunately, a lot of places are selling submerged houseplants as aquarium plants, and they are doomed. Houseplants don't generally survive submerged. Even bog plants can't generally survive long term totally submerged. I wish LFS would stop selling them, but too much money in it I suppose.  *


Yep...making money off the uninformed is really, really annoying. Thanks for the ID on the two plants though. Any idea what the other two are? I'd like to be able to match them as the selection at Petco etc is pretty limited and these actually seem to be growing well. The tuber one I need to trim some today, and the fern is growing new darker green growth at the top...even though the rest is slightly yellow.

Here's two more pictures:








_Ignore the pleco dump...they just got fed lol._











guaiac_boy said:


> Getting enough CO2 into a 300g tank to make a difference is difficult on a good day. A 20lb cylinder would last only 3 or 4 months. You could go bigger, but they're a real pain to manhandle and keep out of sight if you go too big. I really don't think you'd be able to use a bubble stream either. Too much gas would be wasted unless you stuck with something small.
> 
> Also, injecting CO2 into a canister filter at this scale won't work. You'd need a pretty rapid stream of CO2 and I think you'd find most of it coming out the filter undissolved. I'd recommend a series of diffusors or an in-line reactor of some sort.
> 
> *Honestly, considering what you're trying to do, I'd avoid CO2 and stick with less demanding species. I kept a very nice tank without CO2 before upgrading.*
> 
> Congratulations of finding the SMS. It's often hard to locate.
> 
> *Avoiding high light and CO2 will probably allow you to keep fertilizing to a minimum. Root tablets would suffice just fine.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks again...you guys have helped me a lot, and it's always nice to hear that what you're hoping will work...should. I'll do more research into direct fertilization...while still being open to learning with the rest. This should help me out tremendously!!
> 
> By the way, http://www.rexgrigg.com/index.html was a GREAT read. He has a sense of humor that's pretty abrupt and in your face (which I can appreciate...particularly 'Clown Puke' lol) but it's TOTALLY clear all he wants to do is help others. One of my best friends in the racing field is the same way and it's amazing how unappreciated he is.
> 
> Cris


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## xandert

C.Anderson said:


> _Ignore the pleco dump...they just got fed lol._


*This looks like Onion Plant, Crinum thaianum. Maybe someone else can confirm since I'm still learning some of these aquarium plants.*



>


*The image is kind of blurry, but this one resembles Milfoil, Myriophyllum sp. ?*

*Hopefully the links will give you photos you can compare to the plants you've got to solve the mystery. *


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## C.Anderson

I think you got them both xandert! Thank a ton. I really like these two, and I think they'll fit well (along with a few others of course) with the theme I'm going to have to have with the tank splitting rooms.

Should be fun =).

Cris


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## matt_vasko

which one of his plants aren't aquatic???? i think i purchased some of those at pet smart recently???? Would pet smart really sell plants that aren't going to survive in your fish tank?


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## hoppycalif

matt_vasko said:


> which one of his plants aren't aquatic???? i think i purchased some of those at pet smart recently???? Would pet smart really sell plants that aren't going to survive in your fish tank?


My local Petsmart sells non aquatic plants almost exclusively. Only the bottom two plants are aquatics, the "onion" and the milfoil(?). Generally, any plant that has leaves that stand up by themselves, no water needed, are not aquatic. And, I don't recall any aquatic plant that has white stripes on green leaves. Those are two rules I try to keep in mind.


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## C.Anderson

So, I found out from Lesco today that they're totally phasing out the charcoal soil select. Get it while you can. I'm picking up the three bags at my local supplier tomorrow, and going to try to order three or four bags from a texas supplier that has 15 bags showing in stock tomorrow. When I pick up the soil select tomorrow I'm going to grab a couple more bags of colorquartz as well. Maybe in the T type. Basically the idea is to build the substrate up from the soil select to a slightly finer T grade colorquartz to the topping of S color quartz. To be honest also, I think even if the stuff ends up all mixed over time...it will still be attractive. Particularly with the black sand that was in the original tank being mixed with the soil select as the carrier for 'mulm'.

On a brighter note (literally), I picked up the new lighting setup I'm going to use for now on the 300gal tank. On the 130gal I was using a setup that had 4 40w 'Plant and Aquarium' T12's that I found out were only putting out light in the 1200k spectrum. I was also using 4 40w actinics. These were in a standard house/shop style housing that put a LOT of light all over the place...some of which even made it into the tank. While at Home Depot today filling my shopping list for this tank I found some nice 'work bench' lights with a very nice mirror/chrome reflector that points the light straight down. These lights are designed to light a specific work bench area from a relatively high mounting point, so there isn't a lot of spread. The housings take a 48" 36w T8 bulb, which is somewhat of an improvement on the others I had. The bulbs I picked up are in the 5000k range (all they had). The housings on them are also finished in a nice powder coated black...meaning there is no need for a canopy if you don't mind the 'deco' look (see the second picture below).

Here's pictures of the same ones I got that I found on the net:









Here's a picture of a tank thats sort of setup like mine may be (lighting decor wise)...dual purpose fish tank/area lamp =p:









The only difference with my lighting is that I'll be mounting them two each to a clear plexi top (for a total of four, or 8 bulbs), with a double strip of blue actinics between for fish color, and hinging it on the back so I can raise either side like a canopy with a prop rod support. Every part other than the lamps themselves will be acrylic if I can design it right, including the hinges etc. Should look REALLY nice if it works out. I can tell you right now that ONE 48" strip housing TWO of these bulbs seems to put out more light than my other 8 bulbs together...and all of it goes STRAIGHT down too. For now I have it stood off the tank with clear shot glasses lol.










Ignore the cheesy aquascape deco, I've removed all the mopani and am re-soaking it in hopes of making it stop leaching so I don't tan the 300gal this weekend. Also without all the 'houseplants' those roman ruins sure do stand out lol.

Anyhow, total wattage now should be at 288w (of course not counting the useless actinics that I need for fish color =/) of decent quality lights with GOOD, mirror quality reflectors. I'll work on ordering some bulbs with a better kelvin range as well which should help. I know it's still low compared to what I probably need, but it's a definite start.

I'll try to take some pictures as I get this monster setup this weekend and share them if you guys like. I'm trying to get things ready to setup the substrate Friday night, fill the tank Saturday day, and hopefully, since the filters are all already fully seeded biologically and have been running for awhile...possibly add my fish this next week.

Can't wait!

Cris


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## BryceM

Cris, I don't want to sound doubtful here, but these fixtures and reflectors might not be as good as you'd like to think. They're certainly better than what you had, but most T8 fixtures are pretty limitted compared to what most of us are using in CF, MH, or T5 designs. That's OK, but you might need to compensate with a bit more light. Might I kindly suggest that you ditch the actinics? Replace them with something useful and it will go a long ways to helping. Create a nice environment for the fish (plants) and they'll take care of coloring up and displaying beautifully.


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## xandert

matt_vasko said:


> which one of his plants aren't aquatic???? i think i purchased some of those at pet smart recently???? Would pet smart really sell plants that aren't going to survive in your fish tank?


*Unfortunately, Matt, Petsmart, Petco and many LFS commonly sell plants as aquatic that aren't in the least. Cheap and dirty way to make money. The biggest problem is that store employees tend to be clueless so they have no idea what they are selling or that it's not appropriate for aquariums and will die as a result. So customers can't rely on or trust staff to educate them about this stuff. They can't even get information correct about the fish they sell, much less the plants.

I used to be horrified on a regular basis by the ignorant junk that came out of the mouths of LFS staff when someone in the general public asked them a question. When I go into a store for the first time and don't know anything about it or its staff, I will often ask some of those "newbie" questions just to test the staff. Let's me know what I'm dealing with. Every great once in a while, you can actually find someone working in these places who is educated about aquariums. Sadly, that's less than 5% in my experience.

I've seen a whole host of houseplants sold in stores as aquarium plants in LFS, including Petsmart and Petco. Thankfully, with my houseplant knowledge and experience, they can't get away with pawning that stuff off on me. And, if I'm in the store and see someone looking at something I KNOW is a houseplant the store is selling submerged, I warn them not to buy it and explain why, then I try to direct them to plants that are truly aquarium plants (IF the store even sells any - I've seen some that didn't have a single aquarium plant in their tanks). If they buy the houseplant anyway, it's on their own heads as far as I'm concerned.

I feel bad for all the people who aren't warned, though. But there's not much I can do about it. 

I've often wondered if filing written complaints with the head offices of these stores about them selling houseplants as aquarium plants would do any good. I mean, it IS a form of false advertising and unethical business practice, imo. Definitely fraud in my book. Anyone know if letter writing and such would do any good in this case? *


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## C.Anderson

xandert said:


> *I've often wondered if filing written complaints with the head offices of these stores about them selling houseplants as aquarium plants would do any good. I mean, it IS a form of false advertising and unethical business practice, imo. Definitely fraud in my book. Anyone know if letter writing and such would do any good in this case? *


Unfortunately I bet it would cause them to stop selling aquatic plants in general. I've found in business that often not doing it all makes more financial sense for big companies than doing it right =/. Rather than put the administrative money into cleaning up their act and doing things in a matter which promotes honest business, they would rather just shut that aspect down. You see that with the fish themselves. Hell this last weekend I made a call to the corporate center for my local Petco because for the last month their tanks have been completely, and I mean completely covered in a slimy sludge layer of clear/blue/green muck, almost half an inch thick. Fish dead all over the place, the whole 9yds. Unfortunately right (and I mean the day) before that mess we'd bought a few guppies and danio's from that store. Two ended up dying, and upon returning them they tried to say it was MY water quality that killed them (none of my other guppies, danio's, tetras, etc seem affected). Meanwhile the manager is standing in front of a swamp full of dead fish. Since then all but 2 of the fish bought from that Petco have died...all within the 15 days. They wouldn't give me the refund...but offered to replace the fish. As if I'd take another fish out of those tanks right?

Bleh!

Also, guaiac...I'll see what I can do about the actinics. The wife likes how the bright fish look in those lights, but it's entirely possible that by replacing them (they're only 40w T12 fixtures anyhow) with a nicer, more blue (am I right in that the higher kelvin range lights are more blue than the lower?) daylight spectrum it'll brighten things up enough where she still likes the look. These plants I have now seem to be growing without any fertilizer and with the crappy light I've had. It's sort of crazy...and I know it probably won't last lol. I spent $330 on nothing but the fish tank list at Home Depot yesterday (also got some nice marked buckets and an adjustable platform for working on the new tank), and haven't finished yet!

Cris


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## joycould

When you start looking for plants the best place I have found is off this forum. You will be sure to get aquatic plants and not some plant the pet store is saying is aquatic. Make yourself up a list and keep your eyes open, a lot of times you will find extras in the box too one little sprig of something can turn into a very nice plant.


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## xandert

*I think you're quite right, joycloud. I've bought exactly 5 plants at the LFS since I started working on tanks again. Three went into what is basically a coldwater tank for my axies. The other two were anacharis for my quarantine tank. The rest of what I'm getting is coming from members of a couple of different forums and a couple from Aquabid sellers. I'm waiting for those to arrive and eager to receive them. *


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## C.Anderson

joycould said:


> *When you start looking for plants the best place I have found is off this forum.*


This is what I was thinking too. I'm going to try to do this right and get my driftwood set first (gonna take freakin weeks...the piece I have I've already been soaking for 2wks and it's STILL leaching brown like mad), then plan out the tank...then order my plants here lol. This weekend though is dedicated to getting the big 300 gal tank up and running cleanly and without issue.

Speaking of setting up the 300gal...one crappy thing I realized is that the guy that built the stand for it (same guy selling it) is 6'7" tall. When I went and looked at it in his house...it was sitting in a recessed seating area and I was looking from behind at what seemed a normal height to it. It didn't dawn on me that that was the back! The stand is 4' tall all by itself. I'm 5'7 lol. Before I can set this thing up...I'm going to have to cut the stand down =/. One more step.../sigh!

Oh well, this is what we call 'fun' eh?

Cris


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## Tex Gal

joycould said:


> When you start looking for plants the best place I have found is off this forum. You will be sure to get aquatic plants and not some plant the pet store is saying is aquatic. Make yourself up a list and keep your eyes open, a lot of times you will find extras in the box too one little sprig of something can turn into a very nice plant.


Do you mean not here? I have found that this is the BEST place to buy plants. The people know what they are. The plants are always killer healthy. They usually give you more than they said. They will sometimes throw in extras. If you're starting you can buy the plant packages people sell. The shipping is so cheap compared to the online stores who won't do it except overnight or they won't guarantee them. Just my 2 cents...


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## jmontee

C,

If you have a large stock pot you can boil the wood for a couple of hours, change it once after one hour, and it will get rid of 99 percent of the tannins that darken the water. The other advantage is that it will kill any bacteria, fungus or any other stragglers that might be on it. I did this with all three peices in my tank and they didn't get any slime at all or leach anything into the water.


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## C.Anderson

jmontee said:


> C,
> 
> If you have a large stock pot you can boil the wood for a couple of hours, change it once after one hour, and it will get rid of 99 percent of the tannins that darken the water. The other advantage is that it will kill any bacteria, fungus or any other stragglers that might be on it. I did this with all three peices in my tank and they didn't get any slime at all or leach anything into the water.


Actually I hadn't thought of that. Thanks a ton. For the new/accent pieces I think that will work great. For my centerpiece...it isn't happening =/. It's just too large. However...my water heater's set pretty hot, and after reading your post I went in and switched the cold water out for near scalding hot lol. Immediately the wood started leaching brown (it had gotten where it would take all day to turn brown). This makes me shudder to think of just how long it would have taken to even get to that point with cold water lol.

Damn Mopani!

Cris


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## jmontee

Your welcome, glad I could help.


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## C.Anderson

Wow.

Now that was some work.

The 300gal tank is up. I need to go to Home Depot in the morning to pickup the bricks etc that I'm going to use for filling in the substrate. Once I get back and get everything in...it's water time. I'm going to go ahead and run the thing with 2 Rena XP3's and a Fluval FX5. I don't think you can really have too much filtering to be honest. I'll fill the Rena's with biomax and use the FX5 for a week or two with carbon to clarify the water (I just KNOW that freakin driftwood won't be leached by then!). Once that's done, it'll be full of biomax too.

We also decided not to cut down the stand for now. I'm more interested in getting the thing up and running and at least decorated by Sunday. What I will do is re-sheath the outside with a nice attractive plywood, and stain it silver/grey to match the rest of the house. I think that will keep it from sticking out like a sore thumb as it does now lol. I also think I'm going to rework the center cavity on the front to fit a 20 gal guppy tank.

Here's a few pictures:

_Here's the front. It absolutely does NOT match a single piece of furniture in my house lol._









_And a shot of the back. This thing is framed like mad. Everything boxed, squared, and braced. The previous owner had it against a wall so I'll need to finish the back as well over this next week._









Anyhow...thought I'd keep you guys updated on what's going on so you can see the use I put all your great advice to!

Cris


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## BryceM

I thought my tank was big. Enjoy! You know, if the aquairum thing doesn't work out you can always use it as an indoor pool.


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## Tex Gal

WOW that is one honkin' tank! Can't believe you're gonna set it up before you've got the stand how you want it. That means you'll have to take it down!!! WOW!


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## jmontee

Tex Gal said:


> WOW that is one honkin' tank! Can't believe you're gonna set it up before you've got the stand how you want it. That means you'll have to take it down!!! WOW!


I totally agree with Tex. I know your excited but if your unhappy with the stand height do you think you'll be ok with breaking down the tank once it is cycled and doing well just to cut down the stand. For your sake I hope you'll rethink the setting up until the stand is OK.

On another note, how many people does it take to move that thing. It's freakin huge, and totally awesome!!


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> WOW that is one honkin' tank! Can't believe you're gonna set it up before you've got the stand how you want it. That means you'll have to take it down!!! WOW!


LOL yeah...I'll probably just remove the existing veneer and install a new, attractively grained plywood skin on it. Then I can restain it to fit the house (silver/grey). I'm working on some kind of canopy for the thing now. There are three medium sized openings on the top that have acrylic covors that drop in...and they sort of play havoc with finding places to evenly support six 48" light strips while still maintaining access =/. I can tell you this...it's going to be an interesting time decorating it...particularly with the plants. Composing a nice design on a scene with 'depth' and a dedicated front/back isn't that bad. Composing one on a double tank that's 10' wide is really not going to be fun lol. Already the currents needed to cycle all the water for such a large tank mess with the few plants I have. Makes me think I should have rigged up an under gravel spraybar system =/.

Here's a current picture with only two of the six light strips:









Anyhow, I took a few 'during' pictures while setting the thing up that shows how I laid in the substrate etc (boy did that suck...Soilmaster Select Charcoal and 3m Colorquartz Black do NOT go well together appearance wise =/). I'll try to get them up sometime tomorrow.

Oh, also...Happy Mother's Day to those it applies to!

Cris


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## BryceM

Oh man, a tank like that would have been perfect for three 250W metal halide pendants. You could have left it open-topped. Oh well. Have fun with the scape. I'd recommend a careful search for some very bold hardscape elements - boulders, logs, old chevrolets, etc. They can't be used anywhere else and they really look impressive in a tank of that size.


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## C.Anderson

guaiac_boy said:


> Oh man, a tank like that would have been perfect for three 250W metal halide pendants. *You could have left it open-topped*. Oh well. Have fun with the scape. I'd recommend a careful search for some very bold hardscape elements - boulders, logs, old chevrolets, etc. They can't be used anywhere else and they really look impressive in a tank of that size.


Can't leave it open topped =/. Already today I had my ropefish dive bomb me, literally....from out of the small slots across the back. 15 minutes and emergency plexiglass surgery later...all the holes in the thing are finally covered up. The thing hit me in the head!!

Anyhow though...I'm still researching lighting options. The ones I have now are T8's...so I'm better off than I was at least. I already have the Mopani center piece, and the two others will be here Monday. Once I have those, I'll probably go ahead and start looking into specific plants.

Here's some pictures of the wood:









_Existing center piece. It's less orange with the new improved lighting!_









_Pieces that should be here Monday. Hopefully the color is similar._

Anyways, I'll pick up tag end and odd pieces as I go too. Hopefully it turns out for the better rather than for the worse lol.

Cris


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## C.Anderson

jmontee said:


> I totally agree with Tex. I know your excited but if your unhappy with the stand height do you think you'll be ok with breaking down the tank once it is cycled and doing well just to cut down the stand. For your sake I hope you'll rethink the setting up until the stand is OK.
> 
> On another note, how many people does it take to move that thing. It's freakin huge, and totally awesome!!


I think it'll be fine. The height's a minor annoyance now is all. We'll probably move before I ever tear it down in order to 'fix' it =).

On moving it...

2 guys to get it in the truck. 
2 guys to get it out of the truck.
1 guy (and a LOT of cussing) to get it in the house.
and last but not least...
1 guy (and MORE cussing) to get it in place, set up the stand, and lift the tank onto the stand (yeah, that sucked).

Yep...I think waiting till I move to build a new stand is the ticket lol.

Cris


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## jmontee

WOW, you must work out, LOL!!!!


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## hoppycalif

C.Anderson said:


> Can't leave it open topped =/. Already today I had my ropefish dive bomb me, literally....from out of the small slots across the back. 15 minutes and emergency plexiglass surgery later...all the holes in the thing are finally covered up. The thing hit me in the head!!
> 
> Anyhow though...I'm still researching lighting options. The ones I have now are T8's...so I'm better off than I was at least. I already have the Mopani center piece, and the two others will be here Monday. Once I have those, I'll probably go ahead and start looking into specific plants.
> 
> Here's some pictures of the wood:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Existing center piece. It's less orange with the new improved lighting!_
> 
> Cris


The plant to the right of the wood doesn't appear to be an aquatic plant. You might want to verify what it is, before leaving it in there long enough to die and contaminate the water.


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## C.Anderson

Thanks Hoppy...those were in the old tank. Now all I have in there are two onions and the ones that look like planted hornwort lol. I did however buy some new ones today...one is baby's tears, and the other is a different version that grows a bit slower with much smaller petals. I'm getting my feet wet with a planted 12gal deal first, and they're going in it...along with a java fern. It'll have Endlers, a Royal Pleco, cherry shrimp and a couple small snails =). Hopefully it works out well lol. I found a very cool local fish store in Paradise Valley, and although they focus on saltwater, they're the only local store I know that has a WHOLE section dedicated to planted tanks and ADA stuff. Pretty nice actually.

Guess I'm hooked lol.

Cris


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## rehdjac

Along these lines, does anyone know what kind of effect Mopani will have on water chemistry besides coloring it? (I actually kind of like the tea color anyway.) Obviously in a tank like this it wouldn't be much of a problem, but for those of use without the need nor the funds for an Olympic lap pool, will Mopani meddle with Ph, Gh, or Kh?


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## jmontee

Rehd,

The tannins released will defenitely bring down the pH of the water. It shouldn't really do much for the GH but will mimic the soft water of certain areas, South America etc. This also depends on the starting water conditions. Are you using tap water, RO water or some other source. You will have to figuer out what the parameters of your water source are before you can determine what the wood will do. If you are starting out with basic, high kH water then the effects would be less drastic I imagine. This is probably oversimplified but you get the idea I hope.


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## rehdjac

My tap is Ph 7.5, Gh 12, Kh 10.

Probably haven't much to worry about then?


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## C.Anderson

rehdjac said:


> My tap is Ph 7.5, Gh 12, Kh 10.
> 
> Probably haven't much to worry about then?


I was worried about this exact same thing. Before I found this forum for the planting, I'd asked that question over on Aquaria Central (in my introduction post), and was told (quote):



rbishop said:


> Also, the ability of the driftwood to drastically lower your pH is highly overated.


I know next to nothing about it...but rbishop's pretty respected over there =).

Cris


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## C.Anderson

guaiac_boy said:


> Cris, I don't want to sound doubtful here, but these fixtures and reflectors might not be as good as you'd like to think. They're certainly better than what you had, but most T8 fixtures are pretty limitted compared to what most of us are using in CF, MH, or T5 designs. That's OK, but you might need to compensate with a bit more light. *Might I kindly suggest that you ditch the actinics? *Replace them with something useful and it will go a long ways to helping. Create a nice environment for the fish (plants) and they'll take care of coloring up and displaying beautifully.


Actinics are gone. Speaking of, anyone want to buy 2 slightly used actinics that cost me $30 a piece? =/

LOL

Anyhow, I replaced them with the same 5000k lights I have in the T8 fixtures. Again, still too little light and in a bit too low a range...but far better than the multiple 2100k's that I was sold as 'plant lights' lol.

On another note, I've decided to utilize the front cubbies on the stand for 3 more tanks. I found a REALLY cool bowfront that actually fits the center hole (Believe me, finding a larger than 5gal tank that fits a 19"wide x 17"tall x 15" deep opening was NOT an easy proposition). I'll probably have to make two smaller tanks to fit the other holes, but they're small enough it shouldn't be a problem. The stand is open above the cubbies, so I can mount my lights above and totally out of the way of the tanks. I'll probably fill them with Endler's Livebearers and a nice selection of plantings to keep things interesting. Updates (with pictures) will be coming as I decide exactly how to go about getting them installed! One bonus...quality lighting for a 13gal and a few 5 gals should be a LOT easier than for the 300gal lol.

By the way, thanks again for all of your help! This would be a LOT more difficult without it!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Sooo....

I've got an idea that I wanted to run past you guys. I've been thinking about how to go about aquascaping the 300gal. This thing is literally 10' wide, and every time I start to think about how to go about it I just sort of get overwhelmed. So I started thinking to myself that if I broke the tank up into 3 'separate' 3' or so tanks with a common theme (blended together at the edges, of course!) that might make it easier.

Doing so SERIOUSLY helped. Before I kept thinking 'man, I need a LONG piece of driftwood!'...or 'if I stub the driftwood out of the left side...what will I do with the right?'. Now I can take each piece as a separate 'whole' and only worry about making sure the themes are common. You know, sort of like a Triptych, only combined =). I actually just ordered my wood too. They're different enough that they'll keep it from being boring or repetitive...but similar enough to continue the theme. Here's some pictures:

























_This is the center piece. If you see the long, sloping pointed piece...that side will be pointed mostly upwards, although not verticle. I'm trying to avoid having a big triangle in the middle. I'll probably shift it a bit off center towards the lower side (left facing the tank), and tip it upwards at about a 20* angle towards the higher side. None of the above pictures shows placement like I'm thinking I'll use._

























_Here is the piece I intend to use on the left. If you take the first picture and flip it side for side, then tilt it to the left about 20*, that's about how it'll be._

























_I think this is the most interesting piece. This one could be used on the left side as it is in any of those pictures._

The idea, from the left side of the tank is a large, tall fill of driftwood drawing your eyes down and right...with a slight downward lilt and point in the left/center, then a long, low sweep through the right/middle and a sharp upwards curve on the far right. Hopefully this sort of arrangement will allow me to use a variety of plants and blue/slate colored rocks to accent the wood and fish. I really liked the Mopani wood, but this Malaysian wood is open and 'airy' in a way the Mopani wasn't. I think it really fits the style of tank I'm going for a lot better. I think what I'd like to do is install those attractive glass diffusers throughout the system for air bubbles (or Co2, if I end up going that route). The tiny, TINY bubbles would be much less disruptive to the surface area, and since they float so very slowly perhaps they would still allow a nice amount of oxygen transfer. Plus I think that the smaller bubbles are very, very beautiful. Once the plants filled out perhaps I would do away with the air bubbles entirely and simply use Co2. I guess this also means I'm going to have to work out a clear spraybar system, or perhaps go with some of those really cool glass ADA style outlets to keep the surface disruption to a minimum. I think in the meantime I'll invest in some Flourish in order to help maintain things until I get off the fence on the Co2 thing.

So what do you guys think? Tex Gal has already donated a BEAUTIFUL Apon Ulvaceus to the cause (for which I can't thank her enough!). Here's a picture:










I think this is going to be a great filler plant for the sides...taller on the left, slightly shorter on the right...causing ones attention to flow from left to right. I have some baby's tear (and another I also picked up that is similar but has smaller leaves, and grows more slowly...I can't remember the name!). Yesterday I also picked up...for the incredible price of $25 a school of five Columbian Sharks...ranging from 5" - 7" long. They're SO active, and surprisingly reflective compared to most I've seen (maybe it's all this light lol?). I think they'll add some real beauty to the tank, and offset the neons and Endler's that I'm keeping in the tank as schooling fish. Yes, I know the neons and smaller fish may (or should I say, will =/) become snacks, but we have a great supplier for them here (20 for 15$), and keeping a nice school of about 30-40 of them will keep the tank from being boring. I'm going to use the three front tanks for maintaining my Endler's population...so keeping 20 or so of those in the main tank shouldn't be a problem either. Other inhabitants are a nicely sized (about 10") Common Pleco, a 7" Albino Pleco, a 6" Sailfin Pleco (he's very attractive...I never really much liked Pleco's until I saw him), 4 Black Kuhli Loaches, a 6" Algae Eater, a 13" Rope Fish, 5 Black Tetra's, a 5" long Red Tail Shark, and 2 amazingly peaceful Fiddler Crabs. Planned additions are possibly a school of 3-5 or so of the more colorful rainbows (going to remove the Black Tetras), and 2 blue crayfish. One of the nice things about a tank this large is that the diverse fish can easily divide up into their own territories. It's amazing how peaceful many fish can be if they simply have some room. The same for the crayfish. I'll make sure there's caves on opposite ends of the tank for them.

Anyhow, I'm getting kind of excited for this stuff to come together. Now just a little more research on plant choices and my options for caring for them, and upgraded lighting and I think I'll be well on my way! Figuring out how to attack this thing really made a BIG difference.

Cris


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## rehdjac

That wood is great. One looks like a steer skull. I'm looking forward to the set up.


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## Tex Gal

Cris - love your driftwood. I think anyone would be overwhelmed by such a task as you have ahead of you. The good news is that you can tweak it forever! Once you get the plants in and they begin to grow you'll feel like your 10' will shrink.

I would advise you to do one tank at a time. You are so adventurous to add 3 more tanks! Have fun buddy!!!


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## C.Anderson

rehdjac said:


> That wood is great. One looks like a steer skull. I'm looking forward to the set up.


Thanks!! Hopefully I can do it justice lol. We were at the only local store I know of that actually sells planting items. Very nice store, mostly SW based...but really big on the ADA stuff...they offered more PLANTS than FW fish! They also retailed the ADA garden tanks. Very clean designs. Anyhow though...they had some similar pieces of Malaysian Driftwood for sale...slightly smaller though (probably 18" on the long side), and wanted $100 each! These *three*...at 24"x10"x15" on average each barely cost that total between them.

Can't wait to get them and get started!


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> Cris - love your driftwood. I think anyone would be overwhelmed by such a task as you have ahead of you. The good news is that you can tweak it forever! Once you get the plants in and they begin to grow you'll feel like your 10' will shrink.
> 
> I would advise you to do one tank at a time. You are so adventurous to add 3 more tanks! Have fun buddy!!!


Thanks a ton!

The three tanks in the front are very small...13gal for the center, and probably a 5gal on either side (I'll either have to make or order those two). I'm going to work out a pump system that uses the filter and powerhead built into the back of the 13gal to cycle the water through the other two tanks as well. That way I can immediately drop fish in them if needed and not have to worry about acclimating them. They will be used for fry until they're grown enough to go in the 13gal, at which point I'll transfer about half and half of the 13gal's population into the 300gal. Rinse, and repeat =). They will be planted, but only for decorations sake and nothing outrageous. Just enough to make the fish feel secure. I'm also putting the tanks on a slider base so maintenance will be a breeze. I sort of wish the front opening were large enough for one 55gal or something. I've never been a fan of the smaller tanks lol...but I think it will look very nice with them glowing like little suns (I did say planted...I've come to realize that 'nsane lighting' and 'planted' are synonamous!) out the front of my 300gal stand lol.

Anyhow, I'm off to get started on the 13 gal and get it setup for the Endler's coming tomorrow. I'll make sure to take some pictures of this tank...it's sort of unique. Sort of like an Eclipse (I think?), but without a lid or canopy of any sort. It was only $34 too. I'm quite pleased with it!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

So...tonight I decided to go ahead and start working on my odd little 13gal tank I picked up yesterday for the Endler's I bought from Mgamer20o0. Since I'm going to let them breed (just try to stop them eh?!?), this will be the first of three small tanks that I put together to go on the shelves in my 300 gallon stand. It will also be the main holding tank for them to mature in before releasing them into the 'wild' (read: 300gal BIG fish tank!) on their way to shark bait heaven =). Basically all I did tonight was set the aquascape, fill it with water...install the powerhead (sort of a pain...but it worked), and start the tank filtering to clarify it. When the fish get here Tues/Wed of next week I'll steal some of my sponge media out of one of my cannisters to seed the filter on this setup with. Man, I love not having to cycle tanks =).

Anyhow, here's some pictures of the tank...it's a pretty cool little design and I'm SO freakin lucky I was able to find one to fit the shelf on this stand!









_Front of the tank with the price tag still on it. $34.99! Finding a tank that fit the 19.75" wide, 16" tall, and 15" deep cubby hole on my stand was not easy. Dimensions on this tank are 16.5" wide, 13.5" tall, and 15" deep. By the way...anybody want to buy a brand new Fluval 405? LOL_









_Side view. You can see the built in sponge filter setup on the back._









_From the front, looking down at an angle at the filter housing setup on the back of the tank. Inlet is on the left, outlet on the right._









_Looking down into the filter inlet. About 3/4 of the way down on the left is the inlet into the next chamber._









_The two central chambers with a lower divider between them. Water comes in from the right (I put my sponges and large media in that side), goes up and flows over the wier...then down and into the far left chamber where I installed the powerhead (with some mods!). I keep carbon and biomax in the left chamber, along with a polishing pad underneath them._









_Left chamber where I installed the powerhead. For some reason this chamber goes down and all the way under the two central chambers. Dunno why though._









_And...planted. From left to right, Baby Tears (Hemianthus Micranthemoides, Baby Tears, Green Ludwigia (Ludwigia Palustris), Water Primrose (Ludwigia Palustris), more Baby Tears, and finally on the far right a mix of Val and what I think is a Parrot Fern. The wood is 'African Voodoo Root' and the rock came from my yard lol._

There's no light on it at the moment. It will be installed above the shelf. The substrate is Soilmaster Select Charcoal, topped with 3m Colorquartz Type S, in black.

Now I just need to finish the lighting on the stand, cut myself a plexiglass lid for this thing...and get the fish!!

Cris


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## Tex Gal

So, I think you said that you were tying the same filter system to all three small tanks, right? Good news is that they will have the same (more or less) water parameters. The bad news is that any bad thing that happens to one will happen to the others, disease, algae blooms, etc.

How is it that you don't have to cycle the 13g? ... by seeding the filter? That helps but doesn't get you there immediately. The bacteria still has to grow on all your surfaces, glass, rocks, substrate, driftwood, filter, etc. They always say that you need to put tons of plants in and then they will eat up the ammonia until the bacteria starts it's nutrifying... 

Maybe I don't understand what you're doing.... I've never had a tank that didn't cycle, heavily planted, old water, old filters, old decorations,.... new substrate - still cycled.....


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## C.Anderson

Perhaps they are still cycling and I'm just not aware? I know my big tank here, with mostly new substrate (I'll admit, of the decorations I did use, they all came from the 130gal) has tested 0 ammonia from the start (I test that daily for the first few weeks just in case), which has been almost a full week now. Nitrites and Nitrates all show within range on my charts as well? I utilized two fully loaded existing filters the guy I bought the 300gal was using, plus the FX5 which had been supporting all my fish on the 130gal. It _has_ been a few years since I've kept fish (maybe I'm making a mistake and not realizing it?), and when I first started back I made some silly mistakes with stocking etc, but the tank was already established when I bought it (the filter media was already supporting a large amount of fish), and I did reuse approximately 50gal of the water from the existing tank. However, I did also completely change the substrate when I bought the 130gal tank...

One thing I didn't mention is that I do intend a 30-50% water change daily for the first few weeks on the 13gal tank regardless. I've never kept so many small fish at once, and I know smaller tanks tend to be harder than larger tanks to keep stable anyhow =/. Maybe that's why my bigger tanks have 'cycled' without me realizing it? On the 130gal I ended up doing a water change what seemed every other day (just to be safe, plus I was fighting the discoloration of that Mopani!), and I've been having issues with one of these Rena XP3's leaking constantly on the 300gal so it's been in a constant state of being topped off lol. All I know is that I'm testing religiously, and the numbers are showing ok?

Maybe 'mild' cycling would be a better word? It's probably just my relative inexperience talking in the long run though lol. =)

On the multiple tank/filter thing....I would like to do that, and intend to if it's a realistic goal. This little tank has it's own setup which I'll use for now though (until I can research how exactly to go about linking the others safely...I still need to make/order them). I'm researching trying to use this 405 on all three tanks (overkill I know, but I have it and am stuck with it so...). I'd keep things setup with valves in the piping so that in an emergency I could utilize a small internal filter when an issue arose with one tank or another. The main reason I wanted to 'link' them is that filtering options for the tiny tanks is something I'll need to learn about, and I already have this brand new 405 lol. Seriously makes me wish the front opening on this stand was larger. I'd rather have one 29-55gal tank with internal dividers than 3 tanks that add up to the same volume =/.

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Couple new tank pictures. Ignore the cheesy layout of the plants in the 300gal as they sit lol. I just need a place to keep them until the new driftwood comes in and I can start building a real aquascape!


















Now it's just a matter of waiting for my fish/plant/driftwood orders to come in so I can get started!

Cris


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## BryceM

To avoid new-tank algae issues I'd recommend starting with an enormous quantity of fast-growing species. Based on what you already have, I'd recommend about 20 times this many plants.

Obviously this isn't strictly necessary, but it sure goes a long way to startup success.


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## C.Anderson

guaiac_boy said:


> To avoid new-tank algae issues I'd recommend starting with an enormous quantity of fast-growing species. Based on what you already have, I'd recommend about 20 times this many plants.
> 
> Obviously this isn't strictly necessary, but it sure goes a long way to startup success.


Do you just slowly weed them out after a certain amount of time goes by? I'm hoping 'minimal' light and relatively quickly growing plants will do what I need. Hoping is the key word lol. Guess we'll have to see how it goes.

I do plan on possibly quadrupling (probably more, depends on how the actual wood shapes up!) the number of plants in the tank. I'm also thinking of some kind of ground cover over certain areas of the tank as well. Petite nana's or maybe glosso? I'm on the lookout for some kind of short, 'grassy' plant as well for a mid ground. I've come to the determination that I don't have 'three separate 100gal tanks' to decorate...I've got SIX separate 50gal tanks I'm dealing with. Having both sides viewable means my 'backdrop' is the middle of the tank lol. Gusss I could have picked an easier one to start with =).

Anyhow, keep the advice coming. I'm trying to take it all in and working on each part piece by piece as I can!

Cris


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## BryceM

Oh baby. If you plant glosso in that thing you'd better get some SCUBA gear. You'll be living at the bottom trying to keep it all trimmed. Petite nana would be fabulous but finding enough to get the job done will be most difficult, not to mention expensive. There are a few smaller species of crypts that would work nicely too - low maintenence and relatively easy to keep.

Blyxa japonica would be a nice foreground/midground grassy type plant. It requires thinning & trimming every 2 or 3 months usually. Some Eliocharis species are good too.


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## Tex Gal

Another good foreground type plant is dwarf chain sword. It spread quickly and is easy to grow. It's much cheaper than nana petite, doesn't require trimming like blyxa. It's a similar look to blyxa. It will have to be thinned occasionally as it spreads by runners. 

With a tank that big, one of the things I think you need to remember is scale. IE. HC in that large of a tank would just get lost. It would give you a green mat, but all the detail is too small for such a huge tank. Course that's just my humble opinion. I think it's better to have achieve the look of the green WHILE enjoying the details. With bigger tanks you need bigger details. Does that make sense.

I know you said the bubbles where going - I really think they are distracting. The plants are much prettier than the big bubble lines. You eye goes right to the bubbles. Just a thought...


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## C.Anderson

guaiac_boy said:


> Oh baby. If you plant glosso in that thing you'd better get some SCUBA gear. You'll be living at the bottom trying to keep it all trimmed. Petite nana would be fabulous but finding enough to get the job done will be most difficult, not to mention expensive. There are a few smaller species of crypts that would work nicely too - low maintenence and relatively easy to keep.
> 
> Blyxa japonica would be a nice foreground/midground grassy type plant. It requires thinning & trimming every 2 or 3 months usually. Some Eliocharis species are good too.


I just picked up two pieces of Petite nana from Fordtrannyman on this site (along with a bunch of other pieces) for a great price. How long does it take to cultivate? I mean, if I grew it in the guppy tank to take advantage of the ability to provide it more light and nutrients? Guess I'll find out soon enough lol.

So, the plants I have now include:
7 stems Asian Ambulia
2 Petite Nana
1 Anubis Nana
1 Tropic Sunset
1 LARGE Apon Ulvaceus (thanks again Tex Gal!!)
4 or so bunches of Baby Tears
2 bunches of a similar plant that is supposed to be the same, just stays smaller
5 bunches of some Val or other from Petco
1 Water Wisteria
2 Green Ludwigia
1 Water Primrose
2 Onion Plants
5 Milifoil (growing like weeds btw, along with the onions)

And to think...this isn't even a dent in what I need to do justice for this driftwood =).

On a final note, here's a picture of the 13gal tank setup almost complete. All that's left is to make a sliding front fact to block the top 4" of opening so the tank is perfectly framed.










After that it's time to order/build the two smaller tanks, and look into filtering for them. Maybe a drop in filter would be the best bet for now. Can't wait till my Endler's come. I've also got Cherry shrimp, and a couple of cool colored snails coming to add as well. Going to be fun =).

Cris

Oh, just for fun here's the best aquatic photo I've ever taken in my life lol (helped that the subject is as lazy as they come!!). My new Sailfin Pleco on the center piece Mopani, hiding behind a Milifoil.










Fun!


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> Another good foreground type plant is dwarf chain sword. It spread quickly and is easy to grow. It's much cheaper than nana petite, doesn't require trimming like blyxa. It's a similar look to blyxa. It will have to be thinned occasionally as it spreads by runners.
> 
> *With a tank that big, one of the things I think you need to remember is scale. IE. HC in that large of a tank would just get lost. It would give you a green mat, but all the detail is too small for such a huge tank. Course that's just my humble opinion. I think it's better to have achieve the look of the green WHILE enjoying the details. With bigger tanks you need bigger details. Does that make sense.*
> 
> I know you said the bubbles where going - I really think they are distracting. The plants are much prettier than the big bubble lines. You eye goes right to the bubbles. Just a thought...


Makes total sense...that's one reason I switched to larger driftwood. It will help bring everything else into scale. It's also why I'm going to use a lot of smaller schooling fish, rather than try to go with just 'larger fish'. The schoolers 'appear' as one entity to the eye, but are far more active and mobile. 20-30 Neons, Endler's...up to maybe 10 Boesmani Rainbows...then the large, ultra active, silver reflective Columbian Sharks to act as a foil for the more colorful littler fish.

On the plants...keep naming all you can that you think will fit lol! I'm making a small library to source from little by little =). The dwarf chain one was a good suggestion...maybe I'll mix it with the petite nana for a nice effect...sort of like this:










I like that look a good bit...particularly with the angular and exotic driftwood making the whole thing flow! Also, instead of the big bubbles out of a bubble wand...I thought about hiding these all over (plus I'll be prepared for Co2 if I ever go that route!):










You get the benefit of some oxygenation (if your plants don't cover it), and the look of teeny tiny bubbles that float upwards so slowly it looks like they're running through molasses =). I can't get the kind of small bubble curtain I wanted originally with my substrate the way it is...instead they're HUGE. Turning the pressure down does no good...the wands have to be too deep in the soilmaster select because of how light it is. Sooo....the bubbles are nixed! Plus I think two nice spray bars, and the kinds of plants I'll have will still give me a lot of motion and activity as you said.

Cris


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## C.Anderson

A HUGE thanks again to Tex Gal...I'm quite surprised how impressive this plant is, and what it did for the tank all by itself. The picture doesn't really do it justice. Once I got it situated and spread it out freely it just sort of took over that side of the tank. There's a lot of motion involved as well, it's very dynamic.










And the full tank:









Now I just hope I can keep it alive with only middling light, and no huge doses of fertilizer or C02.

Man I really can't wait to get my driftwood and other plants in!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Wow Tex Gal...this Apon Ulvaceus grows like mad!!! When I planted it the flowers were literally 1/2" long. Today, right now (appx 29hrs later) the flowers are almost 4" long. On top of that, I've got almost 5 new shoots that I assume will be leaves coming out, and 3 of the previous shoots are now unfolding into new leaves and have grown appx. 2" in length. One thing though, I'll definitely need brighter light lol, if I want any plants beneath it anyhow!

Thanks again =).

Cris


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## C.Anderson

So, I've been working on the layout for my aquascape. It's very simple at the moment...mostly because I have no idea which plants to use to fill things in etc. What will probably happen is I'll get the hardscape in, plant the two major plants to the left and right, and see where what else I have fits in. This wood has a lot of great 'hollows' that will accept a lot of middle height 'midground' type plants. The slate walls I think will be great additions and help divide the tank up into three separate points of interest, although I'm not sure if I should just leave the 'in between' areas plain black sand. Perhaps I will mix it with some larger smooth black river rocks of about quarter to silver dollar size, and flat just to break the monotony. As for the 'caves'...I intend on keeping a few crayfish, and they need places to feel secure. However...I hate having them hide out in caves provided in the center of the tank!! I built caves up against the glass like this in my other tank out of slate, and the results were great. Anywhere the crayfish hid, he could be seen from the outside (notice they're all against walls of the tank?). It worked out great for both of us lol. Plus the caves and tunnels add interest for my children, and give the fish great places to play etc where we can see them.

Anyhow, here's what I've got so far...and it's to scale. It won't let me upload a .psd for you guys to mess with (that want to anyhow!) but I'm more than happy to accept any ideas you all have.










Let me know what you think! Like I said I realize it's sort of simplistic compared to many of your tanks, but I think the upkeep on something like this would be realistic, while still appearing 'full' and well planted.

Also, one other piece of good news! I talked to my parents today, and it appears that my mom has two old Co2 bottles laying around in storage...a 20lb and a 10lb. I know the tanks can be a major cost...so if I ever do decide to go Co2, I'll be a regulator, solenoid, and needle valve away from the majority of the system. Since I'm picking up 3 or so Co2 diffusers to play with for lighter bubbles (I'll use Co2 tubing to set them in...so they're ready), I'll hopefully be able to switch pretty painlessly if/when the time comes!

Cris


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## Tex Gal

The plant looks great. Yes, it's a good grower. I usually just gut off the blooms stems. I left one on so you could see it.  Did I tell you not to plant the bulb, just the roots? The bulbs will tend to root if you plant them. To control the light issue - if you can get it growing up through a hole in one of your driftwood pieces the leaves will be supported by the wood and stand up straighter so as not to have such a huge shadow. I have even used a plastic ring around the leaves at the bottom (hidden by other plants of course). 

Some great shadow plants are anubias, crpyts, javas. They actually do great since they are slow growers. The shadows help them in not developing algae.

I love you cave idea. It's liking peaking into a secret world. You can have your cake and eat it too. I do think you have alot of void areas. Are you sure you want that much open space? It's gonna be so exciting for you as you get your plants and such in the tank!!!!


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> The plant looks great. Yes, it's a good grower. I usually just gut off the blooms stems. I left one on so you could see it.  Did I tell you not to plant the bulb, just the roots? The bulbs will tend to root if you plant them. To control the light issue - if you can get it growing up through a hole in one of your driftwood pieces the leaves will be supported by the wood and stand up straighter so as not to have such a huge shadow. I have even used a plastic ring around the leaves at the bottom (hidden by other plants of course).
> 
> Some great shadow plants are anubias, crpyts, javas. They actually do great since they are slow growers. The shadows help them in not developing algae.
> 
> I love you cave idea. It's liking peaking into a secret world. You can have your cake and eat it too. I do think you have alot of void areas. *Are you sure you want that much open space?* It's gonna be so exciting for you as you get your plants and such in the tank!!!!


I'm not sure on the open space thing...I don't really know what to do with it to be honest. The center driftwood will be offset to the right by a good bit...I've never really liked just centering things. The slate walls will be about 3" tall, and I'll probably use pure black colorquartz in those open areas (unless there's some sort of plants that might look nice?). I guess I could let the glosso/petite nana/dwarf chain grow over into those areas sort of 'as it wills' and see how it looks. Could be a nice effect. I also thought about breaking up the slate wall with some nice, larger rock formations...you know, as though the 'builder' hit a rock and rather than go around it or remove it, just utilized it in the wall. I'm still not sure. I don't want it to look too 'manicured' but at the same time, I think terracing with slate walls is the way to go with this tank. Maybe instead of connecting the walls completely from front to back of the tank...I'll stop them short on one side or the other and let the two elevations ramp down to each other. Perhaps in the middle? This would give the ground cover a nice area to 'encroach' on the open divider areas...

Hmm...lots to think about here lol. The driftwood should be here on wednesday...so I have until then to figure something out that I like!

Keep the ideas coming, you guys are helping me a ton!!

Cris


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## jmontee

I bet that urticalaria would look awesome in the empty areas. You would still be able to see over it since it is like a grass lawn and it would br held back by the slate walls. Holy cow when all grown in this tank is gonna be incredible!!!


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## C.Anderson

jmontee said:


> I bet that urticalaria would look awesome in the empty areas. You would still be able to see over it since it is like a grass lawn and it would br held back by the slate walls. *Holy cow when all grown in this tank is gonna be incredible!!!*


I certainly hope so!! My goals have slowly changed for this thing as I've learned more on this site. Hopefully I'm not over reaching too very much. The crappiest thing? In order to get a decent picture I'll probably have to take two or three and PS them together lol. The wall on the other side makes a walkway halfway through with the kitchen wall, then opens up to the kitchen so there's no way to get enough distance to take a picture of a 10' wide area =/.

I'll definitely look into that plant also...is there another name for it? I couldn't find that one on google images to see what it looked like.

Thanks!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Well, I picked up some new plants today. I think I'm going to have to just buy one of everything and see how it looks/grows lol. List is:

Willow Leaf Hygro--2 huge 12"+ stems
Althernanthera reineki--4 stems
Ludwigia Repens--4+ stems
Frogbit--huge bunch
And a bit of Stargrass too.

Here's a picture:










I'm really liking the willow leaf hygro, but they're all a nice addition. Not sure how/if the frogbit is going to work...or if it even has leaves underwater lol.

Guess we'll see, which is sort of the point!

Cris


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## jmontee

If you look for it in the for sale forum they sell as UG. It is urticalaria gramnifolia or something like that. It's really awesome and somebody was just selling a huge amount of it here.


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## C.Anderson

jmontee said:


> If you look for it in the for sale forum they sell as UG. It is urticalaria gramnifolia or something like that. It's really awesome and somebody was just selling a huge amount of it here.


Found it!! The top picture is much like I would be using it if I did the little ramps as well. Nice!

Utricularia graminifolia:




























Good stuff! I'll definitely keep my eye out for it!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Well, some interesting stuff has happened. First, I traded a Fluval 405 for a Glass 90gal standard, and a Sea Clear Acrylic 45gal wide. The 45gal could probably use a repolishing, which is no biggie, and the 90gal needs a cleaning, bad...but otherwise they're in good shape. The only real drawback is the acrylic tank has a BABY BLUE acrylic back and sides =/. Sooo, guess if I keep it I'll be doing a DIY foam 3 wall diorama for that one lol, and/or putting it in a stand for the 90gal. Here's a few pictures of the 45gal...I'll get one of the 90gal tomorrow:


























I think it used to reside in a pet store. I'm going to plug the bulkheads if I end up keeping it. I think the 90gal might be a better option (I just wish it were acrylic!). The tanks are the same width, with the 45gal being 12" thick and 18" tall...and the 90gal being 18" thick and 24" tall. I'd like to use the 90gal as a sort of quarantine tank for bigger fish (would have saved me from the 'ich' outbreak I'm dealing with now =/....), I just need to find a place to put it!!

As for the 300gal, I've done a bit more work on the aquascape layout:










I textured things up a bit to give me a little more feel for it, and I'm starting to like it a lot. I think the little ramps where the ground cover can 'overflow' into the non planted areas is a good thing. Sort of breaks up the monotony of all that black sand, and ties the whole scape together (remember the 3 into 1 thing lol).

Last, I wanted to show you guys this incredibly cool slate I found at Home Depot. I'd already bought like 3 cases of typical grey slate the other day, and had only gone to HD today to pick up new light bulbs when I happened on this:


























I bought a case (10 pcs) for $23. The pictures above are some of the 'extra broken ones' that made their way into my cart (I DID get the managers approval lol). I almost wish I could do the whole wall out of that since it's such an odd color...but I think it would look better intermixed with the standard grey/blue/green variety, for the added interest. Also lol, it has NO copper in it...I checked =).

Anyhow, that's how things stand till about wednesday. I'm going to start breaking up slate and mock assembling the slate walls tomorrow. Once the wood gets here Wednesday, I'll go ahead and tape out the outline of the tank in the garage so I can rough layout the wood and finalize the slate walls (I'll be doing the caves tomorrow). That gives them 72hrs for the silicon to cure...allowing me to start on the hardscape Saturday afternoon/evening. I think this is going to be a lot of fun =).

Cris


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## Tex Gal

Two more tanks!!! How will you ever manage it??? My you are adventurous! Pretty soon you will have more water inside your house than in your pool!!! Well at least it sounds like you're having fun!


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## hoppycalif

I suggest not plugging those bottom holes in the 45 gallon tank. If you decide to use that tank instead of the 90 gallon, which would be much easier to do a good aquascape in, you can use those bottom holes for a completely hidden filter setup. That makes for a very nice looking tank, not having the hoses draped over the back.

My back is already aching just thinking of the work you have to do with all of those tanks.


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> Two more tanks!!! How will you ever manage it??? My you are adventurous! Pretty soon you will have more water inside your house than in your pool!!! Well at least it sounds like you're having fun!


Well, at least one more...I definitely need some sort of quarantine tank...and it needs to fit fish that are appropriate for a 300g tank =/.

We'll see how it goes though...I'm not going to start working on them until after this weekend. I've got too much to do lol!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

hoppycalif said:


> *I suggest not plugging those bottom holes in the 45 gallon tank.* If you decide to use that tank instead of the 90 gallon, which would be much easier to do a good aquascape in, you can use those bottom holes for a completely hidden filter setup. That makes for a very nice looking tank, not having the hoses draped over the back.
> 
> My back is already aching just thinking of the work you have to do with all of those tanks.


Yeah...I thought about running an inline PVC ball valve to 'plug' both sides, then a screw on cap to make sure I don't screw up and bump the valves lol. That way if I ever decided to use them all I'd have to do is connect and turn them on. No extra plumbing or draining or reworking substrate. I've heard you can't use the bottom holes with a cannister style filter...but I can't for the life of me think of why? All you'd really have to do (I think) is reduce down to your hose size for connection to the cannister itself, then make sure your filter intake was run back and installed vertically a few inches above the substrate...and the same with your outlet (only higher of course). I mean, what's the difference of whether your hoses go all the way up and over, or simply go up into the tank directly?? I really wish the 300gal was drilled like that. As a divider tank, it's difficult to have hoses and still have things look decent. If I had known more I'd have done it before I set it up...it would have cost me maybe a day...and made things SO much easier in the long run.

Anyhow, I'm considering putting the 45gal above my TV (yeah...I know lol). I've got a rather well built entertainment center, and it's designed in such a way that I could brace it up even more in order to ease my mind about its strength lol. I mean, I'm 210lbs, and I've STOOD on the thing while lifting up relatively heavy artwork (in the range of 60lbs) to hang on the walls and it didn't even flex. I know that's not the 350lbs (or so) a 45gal weighs...but it's getting there. The ONLY thing I really dislike about that tank is the baby blue acrylic front and sides. Do they make ANYthing that can cover that up from the inside other than home made walls? I hope so!

On another note...I'm either a very lucky guy, or a very unlucky guy lol. I've ordered plants from 3 different people, and fish/shrimp/snails from 2 more over the last two weeks, and guess what?

They're *all* being delivered tomorrow. 20 Endler's Livebearer's, 15 Cherry Shrimp, 6 Brigs snails, and about 2 dozen plants lol. Tomorrow. All of them.

Poor postman!!

Crappy thing is it was like 108* here today. Hope everything works out ok...I really don't think I'm interested in a bag of boiled fish, shrimp, and snails =/.

Wish me luck!

Cris


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## hoppycalif

Cris, you are right about the canister filter. You can install it using the holes in the tank bottom. Of course the shutoff valves you mention are important, and that is the scary part to me - I can stop water from flowing out and emptying my tank when I use hoses over the rim, by just lifting up the hoses to break the siphon. But, that doesn't work with the bottom drilled tank setup. I can visualize forgetting to put those valves there, then having a problem and watching helplessly as all X gallons of water dumps on the floor - rapidly!

45 gallons of water above the TV? Hmmmm. That just doesn't seem right.


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## C.Anderson

Well, I'm a little annoyed. I dropped $160 last night in ball valves, fittings, a replacement retaining nut for the bulkhead (try finding THAT at Home Depot!! Ended up using a nut that holds your sink drain in place lol), silicone, a new light setup, bulbs, masking paper and tape...and Krylon Fusion in satin black to fix this tank up. I then get home, get the thing up on a bench to begin prepping/masking the inside...and what do I see?

Scratches.

Looks like whoever owned the thing prior to myself/the kid I traded it for cleaned it with steel wool =/. I immediately called him, and he agreed to paying an extra $50 to cover my costs in refurbishing it, which was cool. But now I need to find out what polishing system to use, and what the best way to go about it will be!

Bleh! I really wanted to get the thing setup and beginning to cycle sometime early next week!

Oh by the way Hoppy...I definitely included the ball valves lol. Now I just have to determine exactly how I want to plumb the tank internally. Now would definitely be the time to install a multiple outlet 'diffuser' of sorts to help keep water movement high, and surface agitation low. Possibly even dual suction points on each side of the tank....

Hmm....!

Cris


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## hoppycalif

Here: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10090+4090&pcatid=4090, is what Tom Barr used for his big tanks with bottom drilled canister filter setups. He used a "Y" fitting on the outlet, each with a jet installed, so he can direct the flow in two directions. The suction fitting is just a screen, as I recall.


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## C.Anderson

hoppycalif said:


> Here: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10090+4090&pcatid=4090, is what Tom Barr used for his big tanks with bottom drilled canister filter setups. He used a "Y" fitting on the outlet, each with a jet installed, so he can direct the flow in two directions. The suction fitting is just a screen, as I recall.


Thanks Hoppy! I think those just might do the trick!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Well! Small update.

The wife broke her camera lol, and so I haven't been able to get any pictures until now. I had a huge order of plants, fish, and shrimp come in Wednesday...along with my driftwood! I had fully intended to wait until I finished my slate walls to install the driftwood...but getting the plants on the same day sort of negated that idea. Since I needed to plant them I decided to go ahead and redo the hardscape, leaving the appropriate amount of room between for the terraces. That way when the time comes to do the walls, I can simply move a few plants, install them, scoop up the substrate and deposit it where it needs to go, then replant. Thank God I have three filters on this thing and any cloudiness clears up in a matter of minutes lol. Soilmaster Select is a messy, messy substrate (I didn't rinse it, as directed by most websites in order to help with the CEC is it?) once you've added your water lol.

Anyhow, here's a few pictures. It does still look a little bare, but the amount of plants has more than tripled (both sides of the central line of decorations are now planted), and I am getting another order of plants from BK828 in Wednesday/Thursday including:

L. Aromatica 7 stems
Martii Sword (Large)
Althernanthera reineki 2 stems
Rotala mix 7+ stems
Sunset/green Hygro 3 Stems
Xingu Sword 5 large mother plants with runners + extras

Along with that I'm thinking of ordering of 9 dwarf swords, and 30 dwarf sags to help with the foreground on both sides. All in all I'm looking to try a LOT of different plants, so I can gain some experience in how to utilize them in my aquascapes,

I've been reading around on this board (and others, but particularly 'whiskey' on this board) about people utilizing a mix of 'high tech' and 'low tech' on larger tanks like this. Under 2wpg, 10-20ppm of pressurized Co2, and a fertilizer program loosely based on the EI format, only utilizing about 1/2 to 2/3 dosage. I think this is going to be the route I take first.

Anyhow, on with the pictures!! The descriptions in italics are based on the layout I put in the center!









_From the 'bottom right' of the tank._









_From the 'bottom center' of the tank._









_From the 'bottom left' of the tank._









_From the 'top left' of the tank._









_Layout for reference._









_From the 'top center' of the tank._









_From the 'top right' of the tank._









_One fullsize frontal view._









_A better full size frontal view._

Two things to ignore...the floating plants (the largest of the pleco's uproots them on purpose...I've seen him do it...just grabs em with his sucker and shakes once to toss 'em =/...), and the sparsness of the plantings. Things need to grow in for sure, and as I said I've ordered more plants to help!

So...any advice?!?! =)

As a side note...the repolishing of the 45gal is going...slowly...but it's going. I think it'll be a usable tank soon enough!!

Cris


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## davemonkey

It looks phenomenal! I've been following along to see how this has progressed and it's looking GREAT! I amazed at how well you tied the whole thing together. (Mine is just 50 gal and it seems like there's always one spot or another that doesn't "mesh".)

Thanks for sharing this awesome experience step-by-step with us! I can't wait to see more.

-Dave


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## Bk828

Cris you have pure skill, to make a HUGE tank like that planted and look nice truly isnt for everybody. I cant wait to see how the tank looks in a month once the slate walls are done and plants fill in. Keep it up


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## C.Anderson

davemonkey said:


> It looks phenomenal! I've been following along to see how this has progressed and it's looking GREAT! I amazed at how well you tied the whole thing together. *(Mine is just 50 gal and it seems like there's always one spot or another that doesn't "mesh".)*
> Thanks for sharing this awesome experience step-by-step with us! I can't wait to see more.
> 
> -Dave


You're very welcome, and thank YOU for showing interest! Here I was thinking I was the only one that thought my tank had spots that didn't mesh lol. To be honest, a tank this large is a little overwhelming, and I'm kind of just feeling my way along as I go. There's a couple of top notch forums (indluding this one!) with some incredibly helpful people without whom I certainly wouldn't have the knowledge nor the means to even attempt to plant this thing lol.

But if you really want someone to blame...talk to Tex Gal =). That big plant (Apon Ulvaecus) of hers just about single handedly changed my plans for this tank lol. I can't say thanks enough. BK828 and FordTrannyMan have both been hugely helpful as well, and without their plant packages the thing would still be a wasteland with like 9 plants! (Instead of a barren plain with 40 lol!)

Seriously though...I hope it gets better, and I hope the slate walls and my planned fert/Co2/lighting plan work out for what I'm hoping to do. The only thing left to really change on the hardscape is to do the three terraces with the slate walls. Due to how short the center driftwood is, I think I'll raise it up an extra 2" compared to the outsides...not sure though...it might be that everthing sloping downwards to the offset 'center' will look nicest. Guess we'll know once I'm in the middle of it lol.

Anyways, thanks again =). I'll try to get some more detailed shots of this driftwood and the plant choices around it once I get it replanted tonight (thanks to my vandal pleco's =/...). Depending on how cooperative the wifes camera is anyhow.

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Bk828 said:


> *Cris you have pure skill*, to make a HUGE tank like that planted and look nice truly isnt for everybody. I cant wait to see how the tank looks in a month once the slate walls are done and plants fill in. Keep it up


Ha!! I don't know about pure skill lol...more like...set the hardscape, then pick a plant, poke it into the substrate...pick another, poke it somewhere else (or maybe on top of the one I just poked, depending on how adventurous I'm feeling!), rinse and repeat till I run out of plants...make a couple adjustments...then complain to the wife for an hour or six how badly it sucks lol.

I will say, I think I did pretty well on the hardscape. Other than that I mostly just concentrated on dividing the plants up relatively evenly by three, then utilizing the extras to 'unbalance it' from the center three points of interest. After that it was sort of a 'ok this is too tall...where can I put it?' thing. Best part is you should have heard me cussing when I had the whole thing done beautifully (took about 2hrs), got down...told the wife to stand up and turn around (couch is on the back side of the tank) and take a look. Her response? 'Why are all the plants on your side of the tank??

Yep, I'd completely spaced, in my 'zen planting' state lol, to realize I needed to do both sides! I mean, I knew, and there were a couple on the other side...but subconsciously I was putting everything on the side I could see when I got down off the scaffold to 'check things out'.

So about 3hrs later (my back was killing me lol...) I ended up with what you see. Wife loved it, I hated it (it's still sort of 'unbalanced' front to back)...but now it's sorta grown on me some and I'm satisfied with it for a first stage lol =). The kid I traded the Fluval 405 to came over to pay me the extra for the scratched tank and he was like 'Wow...', and a buddy of mine that keeps larger fish (I had no idea until last week lol, he'd never even mentioned it!) seemed suitably impressed too. I chalk it up to the fact that there's roughly a ton of water and fish crap hanging in my living room nearly 5' off the ground lol.

Anyways, thanks again guys...without you and this site this thing wouldn't even be as close to decent as it is!

Cris


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## Tex Gal

Hey Cris! Everytime I see your tank I just think "That is one HUGE tank!" Even with all the plants you have put in there it still looks bare! I can't believe how it dwarfs you driftwood! 

I think you have a great start with your plants! It's gonna be nice as things grow in. One thing that kinda hits me in the face is the light rocks you have in there. They are so stark. Perhaps as they age they will darken a bit and blend in. Also do you think it might be a bit more interesting to turn either the middle or the right driftwood at a different angle? They seem too look just like each other from a distance. (Maybe they look different close up.)

Your plecos are big guys! I bet they love the tank! They'll love the drift wood too. I have 6 plecos, all small variety. They are some of my favorite fishes. How do they fare with your crayfish?

Thanks for the kind words about the apon. I'm so excited that someone likes it as much as I did. It's just a beautiful plant that needs a lot of room. I love how it gets a red blush on near the top of the leaves.


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> Hey Cris! Everytime I see your tank I just think "That is one HUGE tank!" Even with all the plants you have put in there it still looks bare! I can't believe how it dwarfs you driftwood!
> 
> I think you have a great start with your plants! It's gonna be nice as things grow in. One thing that kinda hits me in the face is the light rocks you have in there. They are so stark. Perhaps as they age they will darken a bit and blend in. *Also do you think it might be a bit more interesting to turn either the middle or the right driftwood at a different angle? They seem too look just like each other from a distance. (Maybe they look different close up.)*
> 
> Your plecos are big guys! I bet they love the tank! They'll love the drift wood too. I have 6 plecos, all small variety. They are some of my favorite fishes. How do they fare with your crayfish?
> 
> Thanks for the kind words about the apon. I'm so excited that someone likes it as much as I did. It's just a beautiful plant that needs a lot of room. I love how it gets a red blush on near the top of the leaves.


Definitely on the driftwood! I'd noticed that as well. When I ordered them I thought the right hand driftwood (near the apon) would have more 'slope' to it, but it turned out that it was a big hollow stump lol (which is cool, just not what I expected!). The way they are the center looks like a mini mirror image of the left!! I think rotating it 180* , and possibly shifting it a few inches towards the apon side of the tank would be perfect. On the rocks...the camera just seems to bleach them of all color lol. The whitish one IS some form of opaque quartz, but it's actually covered with a light sheen of algae or something, not to mention black and orangish striations through it. It actually doesn't appear so stark in person. I wish there was a form of very low lying moss (maybe a half inch or LESS. you know...the kind that grows emersed on trees and rocks?) that I could foster onto it...it has such a nice shape but in pictures it is ALWAYS blinding white.

On the pleco's and crays...when I kept them both before I never had issues. They just sort of left each other alone. I haven't introduced any new crays into this tank yet, but I don't think there will be any issues. The pleco's usually hang out higher than the crays can reach, and if anything even touches them they bolt. I don't think the two crays would have much of a chance of catching them. I am however considering trading my vandalistic 11" common pleco and the larger of the two albino's into the fish store for credit towards something else. I really wish I had my old Zebra =/. I bought him for $13 from Petco and he was amazingly colored...maybe he wasn't even a zebra but that's the closest I've seen. Now I see them going everywhere for $125!! He would have been a nice offset for my royal.

Now, on a side note, I've got a question of opinion for you guys. I have this rock cave sort of thing...I think it's man made but it's actually surprisingly natural looking. I was planning on getting rid of it, because it didn't match the slate setup well and it's sort of large at 12" x 6" or so. Here's a few pictures:


















It's very open and visible inside, but gives shy fish some security. My red tail shark loves to play in it, turning totally sideways to get inside and back out again. What I was thinking of was putting it on the right side of the tank sort of lodged inside the 'stump' of driftwood. It turns out that piece is almost completely hollow. Here's some pictures of that:









In the tank.








This is what you'd see if you looked down through the tank towards the piece.

Anyhow, I don't know if there's a type of moss other than Java moss (too prolific and grows waaaay too long) that would make the piece look more natural there, or if I'd be sort of stuck with it as/is. Just a small dilemma. I don't really want to get rid of it...the thing has to house a ton of bacteria by being so porous lol...but unless I can fit it in that stump somehow I have nowhere for it =).

Cris


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## foofooree

wow, that is an amazingly huge tank! makes me want a larger tank more and more!


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## C.Anderson

foofooree said:


> wow, that is an amazingly huge tank! makes me want a larger tank more and more!


Yeah, know what sucks though?? I've gotten used to it...which basically means other tanks just look small =/. This thing has almost destroyed my wonder at the sizing of other fish tanks lol. We have a local fish store that maintains a couple 800-1500 gallon tanks...and I go there to put mine back into perspective =p.

One good thing though is that a nicely planted tank, in any size...still impresses me, regardless of how big mine is at home lol. Thankfully =).

Cris


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## Chamilitary

can I give some advice? I am just a newbie when it comes to live plants, but I just want to give some advice on the hardscape.

For a tank THIS sized, it would be VERY hard to plant it like you would with a smaller tank. Why don't you try to do something people with small tanks cannot do?

If it was me, I would DEFINATELY use a HUGE stump of some sort, possibly sticking out of the water too on a 45 degree angle. It would look VERY impressive, and get the feel that small driftwoods cannot give you on this beast. 

If not, I think a tank with some open space in the middle would look nice because the tank can be viewed on both sides, I'm thinking of 2 "island" in the tank, similar to this:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2007.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=3&id=41

Oh and instead of having a tank with alot of species, I would stick to a few only. Something like 200ish Cardinals and 20ish Torpedo Barbs would look stunning along with a school of Otos to take care of the algae would be great. but thats just me.

Something like this http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=0&vol=3&id=55

Anyway, good luck on it, I can only dream of having a tank this big


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## C.Anderson

This is kinda tough...I definitely considered your ideas...but there's some limiting factors to this tank that sort of won't allow it...I'll try to explain in bold.



Chamilitary said:


> can I give some advice? I am just a newbie when it comes to live plants, but I just want to give some advice on the hardscape.
> 
> For a tank THIS sized, it would be VERY hard to plant it like you would with a smaller tank. Why don't you try to do something people with small tanks cannot do?
> 
> If it was me, I would DEFINATELY use a HUGE stump of some sort, possibly sticking out of the water too on a 45 degree angle. It would look VERY impressive, and get the feel that small driftwoods cannot give you on this beast.
> 
> *I agree COMPLETELY about it being difficult to plant lol!! This tank doesn't have an open top (none of the large acrylics do to my knowledge). It has three 'access holes' that are equally spaced. They are roughly 26"x13" and DEFINITELY limit what can be placed inside. On top of that, the top of the tank is roughly 6'2" tall...with an 8' ceiling. Even if I could leave something sticking out of the top...there would be no room to hang lights.*
> 
> _~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_
> 
> If not, I think a tank with some open space in the middle would look nice because the tank can be viewed on both sides, I'm thinking of 2 "island" in the tank, similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I considered open in the middle...specifically because the tank is a room divider. However with the height of the stand, if I make two islands large and sweeping enough (this would subtract another 1' or more to the 'base' of the water column) , I couldn't see through the tank anyhow except for just between the islands =).*
> 
> _~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_
> 
> Oh and instead of having a tank with alot of species, I would stick to a few only. Something like 200ish Cardinals and 20ish Torpedo Barbs would look stunning along with a school of Otos to take care of the algae would be great. but thats just me.
> 
> Something like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Remember also though that my main focus with this tank was and mostly still is....fish. I've learned on this board that I can have a real showcase for plants and still keep the maintenance relatively mild, which has changed its direction some, but for the interest level of my kids (and myself really...plants are cool, but fish are a never ending source of entertainment!) etc, fish are still the ticket. On top of that...200 cardinals!! That would be absolutely incredible...but at even $3 a piece (assuming I could get a discount for such a large order), that's $600 in just tetras lol. That's well over half what I have in the WHOLE tank, including decor =). Just to let you know though...I'm thinking of a school of about 12-15 (perhaps 10 males...2-5 females) boesmani rainbows to replace the few black skirt tetras. This should make for a nice centerpiece/mid level school, with the neon tetras (read: 20 for $15 lol...much cheaper than cardinals!), endler's livebearers and columbian sharks rounding out the main fish and filling in the top/bottom of the tank.*
> 
> _~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_
> 
> Anyway, good luck on it, I can only dream of having a tank this big


Thank you very much!! Your advice is more than appreciated and is just what I'm looking for in responses. I don't know enough about this hobby to make well enough informed decisions on my own lol. People like you giving me their opinions is what is helping me determine what to do and how! I really love your ideas, and if I had the money I think I would definitely pursue them...the reason I say 'if I had the money' is because...while the ADA style tanks are absolutely STUNNING...they are very...limited? I don't think that's the right word...more, specific? Each one elicits a specific emotion/feeling, in a different way than any other. One of the things I am going for with my tank (and hope that the finished product produces) is that the plantings/aquascape will seem to be the focus...but as you look closer all of the different fish (and shrimp, and snails, and crayfish, and crabs lol) and details will draw you in to the point you don't realize you've spent an hour looking at it. I know this will be hard to achieve, but it's the goal. This would be hard to accomplish with one tank this large with an ADA style layout...I think. I would need 10!! For my goals (and budget!), getting the tank planted completely to the limit I think is the best first step. Maybe then I can cull out the aspects/plants/ideas I don't like, and refine what I do like and need to do in order to move forward? I don't know, I'm just learning lol, but I don't see another way to gain the experience I need to make better decisions with this.

Anyhow, thanks again for taking the time to post your opinions! It is very, very appreciated.

Cris


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## Bert H

I like the way your tank is coming along, Cris. About the driftwood, you can put some petite nanas on it. It would be real easy to do anywhere you have any cracks. Low maintenance, and imo, looks real nice. Of course, I don't know if your plecos would allow their bare wood to be covered.


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## Tex Gal

I think your fake rock is fine. It looks realistic enough, almost exactly like my lace rock. You could put riccia on it. It would have to be trimmed regularly though. You could also use flame moss, but trim also. You could use a fissidens moss. They grow much slower and would not need to be trimmed nearly as often. They are more expensive and harder to find. You would need a quite a bit to cover your rock (tie or net in on). It would look nice.

About your plecos - I have some really gorgeous ones. Look here http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-planted-aquarium/49333-my-new-plecos-take-look.html
They are all small ones, with my largest at 7". I got most of them at http://www.exoticfinds.net/index.html. They have great plecos. They have always arrived healthy and happy. They have a great selection and are very helpful. You can get the "zebra" look in the King tiger without the zebra prices. I love my polka dot ones too!  Take a look at their plecos - you'll be in love!


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## C.Anderson

Tex Gal said:


> I think your fake rock is fine. It looks realistic enough, almost exactly like my lace rock. You could put riccia on it. It would have to be trimmed regularly though. You could also use flame moss, but trim also. *You could use a fissidens moss. They grow much slower and would not need to be trimmed nearly as often. They are more expensive and harder to find. You would need a quite a bit to cover your rock (tie or net in on). * It would look nice.
> 
> About your plecos - I have some really gorgeous ones. Look here http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-planted-aquarium/49333-my-new-plecos-take-look.html
> They are all small ones, with my largest at 7". I got most of them at http://www.exoticfinds.net/index.html. They have great plecos. They have always arrived healthy and happy. They have a great selection and are very helpful. You can get the "zebra" look in the King tiger without the zebra prices. I love my polka dot ones too!  Take a look at their plecos - you'll be in love!


I think the fissidens would be the trick...if I could get enough to get it started growing in the first place. Thing is, I've had a real awakening regarding moss over the last couple days lol. Buying moss online (from the vendors, not forum members) is no better than buying 'aquatic' plants from Petsmart.

Kinda frustrating.

On the pleco's...I just discovered that site the day before yesterday! Incredible stuff there, and they have a really good reputation from what I've seen. I'm considering an order on the first whitespot they have sitting on page one right now =). Down the road I definitely would like one of the king tigers...along with what I have (royal and sailfin) I think that would round out my pleco collection nicely lol!

Cris


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## C.Anderson

Bert H said:


> I like the way your tank is coming along, Cris. About the driftwood, you can put some petite nanas on it. It would be real easy to do anywhere you have any cracks. Low maintenance, and imo, looks real nice. Of course, I don't know if your plecos would allow their bare wood to be covered.


Thanks a ton!

I'm really debating exactly how and what I'm going to do with the driftwood. To be honest I love the lines of it, and I'm worried any mosses and plantings will ruin that...but it may be worth a try (can you tell I'm on the fence? lol). I think that's one of those fine details that will come out as I'm refining things for sure. I didn't get a thing done on my slate walls this weekend...lol, and that's really what's holding me up. I do have another great selection of plants coming from bk828 this week, along with a nice bunch of giant val's to go along with my onions and hygro =).

Hopefully things work out!

Cris


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## Bk828

Hey Cris how about an update!!


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## Sterling919

Well I'm a total newbie too and haven't had near the luck you seem to be having...so two thumbs up to you Cris. 

That is one freakin' big tank!!! How does the floor of your house hold it? I was sweatin' bullets over filling my 40g breeder tank up and then I find this thread. You've got a bigger set than I do cause I'd never attempt to put a tank that large in my house, even though I'd love to have one. 

About the "bubbles" that your wife loves so much...mine does too. I want a planted tank and don't really care too much about having a bubble wall or anything like that. But what you could do would be use acrylic to make a partition and put the bubble wand inside it. That would keep it out of the regular tank water and then it wouldn't drop any CO2 level you might have in your tank. Kinda something like the filter system on your 14g tank... If you sealed it off with sealer you could fill it up with water and add something to the water to keep it from going bad. It would always be sealed off from the main tank and acrylic (I believe) won't ever turn color or anything like that would it?

I'd like to see this once you get it all going with all your stuff I want to put in there, looks real good so far. Still can't get over how the floor holds that much weight...amazing. Hopefully you'll have better luck than I have...cause without CO2 and ferts...I can't get nothing to live...let alone grow. And I'm still trying about 1yr after starting...so good luck to you.

Kevin


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## hoppycalif

Sterling919 said:


> ..... Hopefully you'll have better luck than I have...cause without CO2 and ferts...I can't get nothing to live...let alone grow. And I'm still trying about 1yr after starting...so good luck to you.
> 
> Kevin


Kevin, why don't you use DIY CO2, which is very cheap to set up, and do some fertilizing with cheap stuff you can get online? And, if your light is too dim, look through the DIY forum for inexpensive ways to get more light.


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## Sterling919

Oh I'm doing DIY CO2 and I've got about 45w on my 10g tank. I was saying that without using the CO2 I couldn't get anything to live. With CO2 I've had a little better luck but nothing like what I've seen here or in this thread. The tanks I see here really make me scratch my head and wonder what I'm doing wrong. My 40g breeder has the Outer Orbit 2x96w and 150MH lights in it...so that's gonna be a "too much" light tank probably.


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## Bk828

hmm wonder what happened to Cris.. Been away for almost 3 weeks now..


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## Tex Gal

I've wondered too. I've pm'd him but no response. Hope all is ok.


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## Bk828

... lets hope hes on vacation enjoying himself..


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## davemonkey

Did he ever mention what town he was from? (I didn't read most of the original posts.)


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## foofooree

I think florida


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## Bk828

actually its Glendale, AZ.. Found his address in my shipping log..


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## foofooree

oh, lol, dont know why I thought it was florida lol. Thats a shame, I wanna see an update on this monster


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## Bk828

Cris hasnt been on for over a month now.. Last time i spoke to him he was receiving my plants.. he didnt say anything of a vacation or anything. So hope hes alright.
Sent him an email will see if he answers.. If anything can hopefully find his # in AZ phone book


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## Bk828

almost another month and still no word..
Tried calling his house and phone seems to be disconnected...


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## davemonkey

Kinda makes me worried when he was hitting the forum daily and just getting everything started and going and then.........nothing. I tried searching zabasearch and switchboard for a #, but only came up with those two that didn't work. Is it too pessimistic (or nosey) to try the local hospitals in Glendale to see if they have any record?


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## hoppycalif

Could it be that he has dropped this forum for TPT or some other forum? That wouldn't explain the disconnected phone number, but that could be another problem.


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## foofooree

I havent seen his tank on TPT


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## BryceM

Ah, this is a pretty common thing. Many, many very cool journals often end with the apparent alien abduction of their authors. All this excitement and energy and then ..... whooosh!!........ a big empty sound.


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## Bk828

hoppycalif said:


> Could it be that he has dropped this forum for TPT or some other forum? That wouldn't explain the disconnected phone number, but that could be another problem.


Hes been inactive on all other forums since the same day as this board. I sent him emails, pms, called 2 numbers and still nothing.

Perhaps someone from Glendale, Arizona could pass by his house. Check and see if theres anything suspicious... Address is : _hidden_


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## Bk828

3 months gone and still no word. 
I also see that the address i posted was removed.. if anyone is close to Glendale Arizona and is kind enough to pass by the home and see if everything is okay that would be great. If you can Please Pm me for info.


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