# new weapon against algae - "photo phoraphin"



## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

i dont have the english name for it, and didnt find anything on the www about it. it has arrived to our lfs saying its a new algaecide based on cancer products. did any of u heared about it? 
nothing is written on the bottle as its not a commercial product. it looks to me like a fraud, i think its hydrogen peroxide. :lol: 
the lfs told me to use it when the lights r on - 10ml per 100l and it will kill all the thread algae and even cure external infection on fish. 
my friend got it and said its actually work (killed a few caridina japonica too)...
anyway even if its not HP - HP will do the same thing right? 
im going to buy it and test it vs. the HP...


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Tom's right. It's amazing what people will sell and others will buy!


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## jerime (May 23, 2004)

As one that used it before' it works like a charm....
Any idea what it might be?


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## mm12463 (Mar 5, 2004)

Wow another algae buster product. What's that like #30000 on the market? The problem with using this is your not fixing your problem.

Think of it this way. You run out gas really quick after a fill up. You keep filling it up to get where you need to go. Problem is your gas tank leaks. Until you fix the leak your not addressing the problem which is running out gas quick.

Get you water chemistry figure out, get some fast growers in there, maintain your water chemistry and the problem will fix itself.

Otherwise keep buying the stuff and hoping some day you won't have algae. Not trying to be harsh but I learned this lesson myself. Won't ever do it again. It's a temporary fix at best. Figuring out how to grow the plants and keep the algae check is a learner experience that will take you a long way.


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## jerime (May 23, 2004)

mm12463, in principle, you're right. we need to fix our chemistry to reach some sort of equilibrium, otherwise it will come back after treatment. Well the facts were different in this case. in my experience, I battled BBA for a long time. finally it was gone. I was left with green hair algae. this stuff killed it in a sec and the never returned since then....
I didn't have to buy this anymore - one time use only...


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

Algaecides definantly are useful. I do not understand why people diss them. I agree that it might be a bad idea to use them all the time instead of using proper ferts, but If you mess up and get algae it is stupid to wait until the algae dies off. Why not just blast it and have it done with in a week? Then the proper ferts will keep it out. Its never made sense to me to blast people using the algaecides. Even if they used to to keep the tank nice and clean all the time... if the plants look good why not use it?


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## litesky (Feb 9, 2004)

I don't like the idea of having to add "MORE" chemicals in to my tank. If i could do it just naturally, even though it may take awile, I'll def do it. I may have to be a bit patient, but when the algae dies off, I have the an assurance that there's nothing else unecessary in the water. 

It's all...

A difference of opinion.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

When will they learn?

How do I say this differently........?

How did algae start to bloom in the first place?
Magic? Magnetic alignment with the Moon? Intricate biological processes that no one can ever know?

Nope.

I hear this one a lot 
"*Well if I could just get over this algae, then my plants would grow better" *

No they won't. Strike two.
You still have the *same poor plant growth *before and after using the algicide and perhaps worse since algae and plants use the same things to grow but need far less than the plants.
This is the fallacy folks fall into all too often.
These plants are weeds if given the right conditions.
New growth comes back very fast, a good trim does wonders and removes the algae rather than leaving all the old dead stuff in there
(algicides that you add to the water don't kill resistent spores nor prevent reinfection)

Perhaps plants need PP to grow? Is it a secret nutrient no one knows about?

Nope.
Strike three

Algicides for plant tank folks preys on the newbie.
Or the sucker that thinks....
"Well it might work?"

Why not send me 10$?
It might work also.

Do you think or believe I or Amano, or anyone worth their salt needs these products?

Strike four.

The only use that an algicide kills algae that has much place might be Anbuias leaves with BBA, a dip, cleaning equipment etc.

If you stop the algae growth, so what?
Then what?

You still have the same poor plant growth you had when it started and 
that caused the algae to begin with.

Meanwhile, my plants are growing well.

I do not have a magic wand, you do not have to be particularly experienced either to do this.
Assume good GH above 3 degrees ~50ppm.

CO2
NO3+K
PO4
Traces.

Add 4 Things. Prune. Clean filters and other basic maintenance.
You have algae, I don't and haven't for a long time with many different tank types/sizes etc.

I've used more algicides than just about any of you.
Why the heck would I tell you all this?

Your goal in plant growth, not killing algae.
You got *bigger* issues if algae appears.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## pineapple (May 4, 2004)

Tom,

That was your most eloquent resonse on this subject to date (and believe me, I have read many of them on many boards). 10/10. I think it is great advice. You should create a T-shirt slogan and copyright it.

Andrew Cribb


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## Simpte 27 (Jul 16, 2004)

Since when do we get 4 strikes? Did I foul off the third pitch? :wink:


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## ShaneSmith (Feb 15, 2004)

When you dose things correctly and your plants grow again, have your algae typically gone away?

I had a 125 that was coated with algae. I was doing everything correct. NO3 was at 30ppm (Lamotte test kit) and my PO4 was 4ppm (Lamotte test kit) Co2 was at 23ppm (Lamotte test kit. The problem was 4 oto's died when the hurricanes came and i did not see the tank for 7 days. So algae grew like mad. I turned everything back on and dosed the correct ferts. The algae stopped growing i never had to scrape glass and noticed no other algae. But it did not die. I used Peroxide and terracyte to kill the algae. It has not come back in 1 month and all has gone well.


I agree with Tom. You need to use the estimative index so there is no Ammonium and the plants grow fast. but i think that if the algae are established they will not die or at least die quickly if there is a lack of ammonium but all others present.

That is my whole argument for the use of algaecides.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

I play to have fun.
I don't play for $.
If you send me 10$ for algae control, I might only give 3

But the whole notion is very simple, you need to get in there, work the plants, prune them, preen them, remove any decay, any algae, any dead leaves, clean filters etc.

No algicides does that ....nor *ever* will.
It'll never do work nor prevent neglect.
That is much more helpful to a tank than merely killing algae.

That's* much more *about growing plants and keep them healthy.

These are issues folks simply miss and do not consider when deciding to use a snake oil.

They make a product called _Snake Oil _ BTW, it's for reptiles and to help their skin/scales.

If pro's don't use these things and don't even bother messing with them and if you want to get good, don't waste your money.

If you insist on wasting money, send me some.
It'll be a better spent 10$.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

I am waiting for the day when there's a product that DOES NOT indiscriminately kill both algae and plants. IMO, every algaecide products proposed so far are harmful to algae, plants, and fauna; with the exception for Flourish Excel which inhibits BGA (but BGA is a bacteria so does that count?). Like Tom and others have stated ad nauseum, when the plants suffer, algae proliferate.

Having said that, not ALL algae in the hobby are IMHO the results of poor plant growths. Green dust algae, spot algae, and thread algae come to mind. It would be nice if there is an economical product out there that keeps them under control until we figure out what triggers them and go from there.

And as far as BBA and other equally obnoxious algae are concerned, like Shane, I would like something that would remove the existing mass. While I can prevent more algae from taking hold and multiply, it is a RPITA to remove those already attached to the hardscaping materials, especially those that we can't just simply remove from the tank for scrubbing w/o destroying nearby plants, terraces, etc.

So I welcome these proposals for new algaecide and/or research to better understand algae & methods its control. The current methods are good but they can be better.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

There are several good points made here, to me at least.

1 But the whole notion is very simple, you need to get in there, work the plants, prune them, preen them, remove any decay, any algae, any dead leaves, clean filters etc.

2 I agree with Tom. You need to use the estimative index so there is no Ammonium and the plants grow fast. but i think that if the algae are established they will not die or at least die quickly if there is a lack of ammonium but all others present.

3not ALL algae in the hobby are IMHO the results of poor plant growths. Green dust algae, spot algae, and thread algae come to mind. 

These three seem to be definitely connected. 2 and 3 are similar to me in my recient experiences. Two of my tanks, both 10 gallons one with 45 watts NO and one with 30watts NO. Both CO2 enriched and with all the required ferts, in acceptable amounts. Both have the green fuzz/dust and I can NOT beat it. The problem started for both at the same time when my CO2 tank ran low on pressure and I got low CO2 levels for a few days. Thats when the fuzz started. 

Now I have been battling this for well over 2 months. I know my levels of everything are good. I have tried 2-50% wc's a week, to 2-90%wc's a week. I even spent one week, doing 75% every other day. I would drain the tank, wipe the glass with paper towels (small areas, no rewiping with dirty towels) try to make sure i got it all form the glass and refill the tank. Dose chemicals back, make sure CO2 was good, etc. Still I have it as bad as before. Th plants all grow amazingly BTW. None of them have ever looked better. 

Am I dosing enough nutrients? I made myself a spreadsheet to keep track of all of that. Average dosing 30-40pm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 5-6ml Flourish trace, 5-6ml Flourish Fe. I have stuck with a dosing pattern for 2-3 weeks before changing it. Both have high fish loads, 10-13 neon tetras, but always have, and I never had this problem before. One tank is my AGA entry, it was rescaped after entry, but the fish, Eco-Complete, plants and filter are all the same, just a diferent planting scheme. I am sick of this fuzz. I am considering buying an quickfilter and running it for a couple of days, not changing the water but wiping down the glass every few hours witha magnet scraper or something to knock loose the algae so it can get sucked up. I know this algae should go away if you pick at it like I have been, I though it would not grow except under very limited conditions, mainly High light, low CO2, but I can practically watch mine grow on the glass. Regardless of whether or not it's spores will attach to any surface they touch. I know I am removing most of it during water changes. I even gun things through he plants to try and knock some of it loose so it can settle and be vaced/wiped up. 

What am I supposed to do now? I don't want to resort to algaecide, or try drastic measures but what to do?

I am assuming that my cleaning/maintenance practices are to blame. So as for my #1 observation of Tom's, whats the best way to prune, preen and maintain our tanks? Maybe thats where many of us go wrong. Are we not cleaning good enough. I feel like I am very through. I am a bit anal retentive sometimes

Sorry for this incredibly long post. I kind of got caught up in a moment


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

GS: add PO4 and more CO2.
GD: scrub first then vac up the dust and repeat a couple of times, it'll go away, lower the light also works during this time.
Thread: prune it off. Correct poor conditions, doesn't come back.

Bleach is good for removing some algae on tough leaf plants if you have a bad infestation, equipment and rocks, H2O2 for spot cleaning etc. 

There is a device that will kill algae but leave the plants alone. 
It's not economical for aquariums though but it does work.

Still, it'll never prune your tank or make your plants grow better and oor plant health is the reason you have the algae to begin with.

I'm not telling you folks this to put you on some wild goose chase
You folks do that so well all on your own. 

Chase your tail some more, eventually you'll get tired.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I had the same problem as Dennis : green dust algae that I could literally watch grow on the glass. This started when I added another NO flourescent to my 200l tank, increasing the wattage from 125 to 150. Not that huge of an increase but this dust algae loved it!

I battled it for over 6 weeks. For the last two of these weeks I was wiping up the algae with paper towels and doing 50% water changese very day, re-dosing the ferts after every change. Thank God for Pythons!! 

Plants were growing great but this dust was just ridiculous. I finally went back to my old lighting this past weekend and the algae has all but disappeared. I had originally added more light because some of my stem plants looked "leggy" and my E. tenellus was not growing well. Now the tank seems to be in control again and I'm waiting to see how the stem plants and E. tenellus do.

What I find puzzling is that with the additional light I wasn't even at 3wpg. There are people doing 4, 5 and even more... Are they wiping down the glass every day?? Or is it a specific mix of plants that's required?


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## Freemann (Mar 19, 2004)

I may be wrong but have you people considered the chance that iron maybe the culprit? I find iron to be pretty unstable in high light especially the iron gluconate, I can virtually control hair algae by stressing plants with low iron gluconate levels, algae just disappears, is there any chance that gluconate iron breaks down with high light, high oxygen and algae can still use it as Fe +3 while plans can't? High iron gluconate for me is healthy plants (specially mayaca, macrandra) but algae also, low is not that healty to sick (yellowish anubia leaves, white mayaca leaves, macrandra leaves turning white and melting) but no hair algae I think BGA is also favored from high iron aswell, in generall I suspect that bright green algae in color has some strong connection with iron.
Also for me at least it was low iron that created curling problems in plant leaves (nasaea) problems. Growth seems to differ so much with low, high iron traces here.
Just my 2 cents


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

> GS: add PO4 and more CO2.
> GD: scrub first then vac up the dust and repeat a couple of times, it'll go away, lower the light also works during this time.
> Thread: prune it off. Correct poor conditions, doesn't come back.


GS????

AS for scrub, vac, it'll go away, not in my experiences. There has to be more than that. I have considered lowering my lighting, but any lower and my Ranalisma forground melts and the glosso grows up. Glosso I can deal with, but I am not willing to loose my ranalisma rostrate! I have tried large (80%) water changes for a couple weeks, that makes things worse, small wc's, both every few days, seem to not make it worse, but not make it better either. Could it be related to NO3 levels?

BTW, you can keep your UV

Let me try to make this simple: Are there any conditions/ nutrient levels that GD likes? What am I doing wrong? I don't need wild goose chases and beat around the bush answers. I also don't need to be made to feel like I am being laughed at, I am mearly trying to learn from the experienced. If I knew where I went wrong in followong your advice, nmaybe you can put me back on track...


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

GS=Green spot algae.

GD is fairly presistant for a few weeks.
But it does not bother plants, just the glass, occassionally the rocks etc.
So it's not a huge threat.
Some folks have had success with lighting as mentioned, I use very high and then a moderate range for my personal tanks.

The less light works well in conjuction with a good cleaning, and vacuuming the stuff up before it gets loose and reattaches.

I've had a tough time culturing this algae for more than 2-3 weeks, it dies off in my tanks. But....I have seen it grow well in my tanks for that peroid.
Akinosendesmus is the genus FYI.
Other folks I've taljked to have been frustrated, but once you know when you scrub it off, it just swims around and reattaches..then you can work to get rid of it.

How? Harass it. Scrub it off, then let the water settle and vacuum it off.
You can vacuum it as you wipe it off also.

Doing this a few times reduces the biomass a great deal. 
Now, build on this.

Pull your lights back (if possible) from the front of the glass.
Consider a 1-2 day blackout after a good scrub.

If you agressively good after it, it does go away fairly easily and does not come back once beaten back.

Perhaps some disturbance like Green water causes it.
I'm not sure. I have not been able to keep it growing that long to mess with it, but I have gotten rid of it several times for other folks locally and over the net.

The good thing is that it does not bother plants, and does last too long if you harass it.

It seems to have a rather short growing cycle then does not seem to ever come back, no one has ever gotten it 2x that I helped.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Freemann said:


> I may be wrong but have you people considered the chance that iron maybe the culprit? I find iron to be pretty unstable in high light especially the iron gluconate, I can virtually control hair algae by stressing plants with low iron gluconate levels, algae just disappears, is there any chance that gluconate iron breaks down with high light, high oxygen and algae can still use it as Fe +3 while plans can't? High iron gluconate for me is healthy plants (specially mayaca, macrandra) but algae also, low is not that healty to sick (yellowish anubia leaves, white mayaca leaves, macrandra leaves turning white and melting) but no hair algae I think BGA is also favored from high iron aswell, in generall I suspect that bright green algae in color has some strong connection with iron.
> Also for me at least it was low iron that created curling problems in plant leaves (nasaea) problems. Growth seems to differ so much with low, high iron traces here.
> Just my 2 cents


If highb iron or it's form was the issue, I'd have it growing right now.
I cannot keep it alive and I add more iron that the 10000X more plant biomass needs, so surely there's plenty for the algae......

Plants and algae both can use Fe either form.
Algae have little trouble reducing Fe3+ as do the plants.
Fe added to water forms preciptates, that's why they add the chelator.
Chelators are left outside the cell(algae and plants) and not taken it.

Internally, the Fe2+ is chelated by the plant till it is transported to it's final destination.

The chelator seems to make little difference as much as some might wanna say it does.

GD has a particular set of conditions required for a bloom and continued growth. High light, light hitting the glass, high PO4/moderate to low NO3, poor CO2 can help it.

It sometimes appears for a few weeks then goes away on it's own.

I'm not sure why.
I need to be able to grow and control it to say more.
To date, 3 weeks was the max.

I have no problem infecting my tanks with it personally, does not bother plants and is interesting.

If you all have some, I'd like to get a sample from you.
If I can grow it, I can kill it and tell you precisely what I did. 
But unless it's actively growing and blooming, I cannot say what brought it about.

I've only had it infected when I took smaples and added it to my tank. It's never appeared on it's own in any of my tanks.

Fe on it's own does not cause this algae to bloom.
That much I do know.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

I apparently have 2 types of "green" dust. They both appear green on the glass, but the rollup from scraping it off will be either red or "spriulina green". I've had the green and red rollups at the same cleaning session. I seem to keep them both perpetually in a non-CO2 tank with ODNO flourescent lighting that amounts to something over 2wpg. It never gets real thick.


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Can you send me some of both?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Tom,

First, let me apologize for my, as Jeff would say, snarky quirp I did not mean for my post to sound that mean. I appreciate your help and responses, really we all do. I would be happy to send you a sample of mine also, if you would like. PM me about it.

As far as my tank goes, It seems large water changes encourage the algae. Whenever I do a wc more than 50% it seems to come back worse, faster. My cleaning pattern has been this.... Trim, prune plants. Remove any obvious damaged leaves, overgrown stems, clumps of algae (the thread algae has been gone for a while now) stir up the plant stems so the algae spores(is that the right word?) might have a chance to be someplace more likely to be vacumed out. Let it settle for 5-10 minutes then drain tank, vacing the gravel (holding hose without gravel tube just above substrate and moving it to pick up as much mulm and debris as possible. Then I wipe glass with paper towels, being careful to not get algae from dry parts of glass into water. I change towels frequently. Once I have gotten all from the dained part, I moved to the submersed parts. Iam more careful hear to try and wipe small areas and throw away the towel. I am trying to minimize the amount that gets released into the water column. Then I refill the tank with dechlorinated water. This process is the same no matter how much I change or how bad the algae.

As for dosing and maintance schedule, here is a MS works spreadsheet I keep track of everything in, if anyone is interested....

Thanks again sorry for the long post again, I just like to include as much info as I can.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Dennis, can't seem to open your file (I've got Excel)...

So, anyone have any idea why moving from 125 to 150w on a 200l tank should suddenly cause dust algae? When that isn't even 3wpg??

Could it be color temp or spectrum (however I have read that these don't matter...)?


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

dennis said:


> Tom,
> 
> First, let me apologize for my, as Jeff would say, snarky quirp I did not mean for my post to sound that mean. I appreciate your help and responses, really we all do. I would be happy to send you a sample of mine also, if you would like. PM me about it.


I'm _immune_ to snarky quips, but repeated personal attacks do start to wear thin but they typically hang themselves everytime all on their own.
You ain't even close.



dennis said:


> As far as my tank goes, It seems large water changes encourage the algae.


Well we all know unless you have NH4 in your tap water, something else is going on. If you do what I tell you, I can give you several ways to get rid of the algae, and improve plants growth.

But this is a useful piece of info to know......



dennis said:


> Whenever I do a wc more than 50% it seems to come back worse, faster. My cleaning pattern has been this.... Trim, prune plants. Remove any obvious damaged leaves, overgrown stems, clumps of algae (the thread algae has been gone for a while now) stir up the plant stems so the algae spores(is that the right word?) might have a chance to be someplace more likely to be vacumed out. Let it settle for 5-10 minutes then drain tank,


Don't wait, go after it.



dennis said:


> vacing the gravel (holding hose without gravel tube just above substrate and moving it to pick up as much mulm and debris as possible. Then I wipe glass with paper towels, being careful to not get algae from dry parts of glass into water.
> 
> Naw, do this first.
> Be quick about it, drain the tank quick(use a large siphon hose, 1.5 " etc).
> ...


Try this with the routine:

10 gal tank:

Day of water change(right after you fill it)
Dose the macro's:

1/8" teaspoon KNO3
Smidge of KH2PO4(enough for about 1ppm)

Add traces the day after the water change.
2.5 mls of flourish

CO2, this is the real critical part, 25-30ppm for thr full 10-11 hours of light.

GD does not bother low light tanks, lowering light, blackouts can help with removal methods.

Method #2

After your #1 method listed above you can add this on top of it:

Since it's a small tank, you can remove the plants/fish, rinse 3-5x in tap water(not dechlorinated), add H2O2, about 100-200mls or so.

Wait 2 hours and aerate. Do water change(large).
Replant tank, add fish back.

That kills about all species of algae not attached to plants.

Then you can do a 2-3 day blackout.
Once it stops growing, you will likely never have it again.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Can you send me some of both?
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


PM me your address, Tom. Next time I scrape, I send. With any luck, I will harvest both types. Since you're on the left coast, don't you think the blackout in shipping will be detrimental?
:wink:


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks Tom. I will follow method one, as method 2 seems drastic. After all, I know this algae will leave and the plants are growing fine or better than ever. I will dose 10NO3 and 1PO4 right after the wc., 2.5ml FLourish day 2. When and what should I dose after that. I assume day 3 10 NO3 and 1PO4 again, or no? Thanks again!

Dennis


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Dose the same macro's on Day 3, then traces, day 4, macro's day 5, traces 6, water change then macro's day 7.

Repeat.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks Tom I wil try that!


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Try it for 3 full weeks, if you are not fully satisfied, I will return the full price.

Make sure the CO2 is cranked.
Always.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## AV8TOR (Mar 28, 2004)

dennis said:


> Am I dosing enough nutrients? I made myself a spreadsheet to keep track of all of that. Average dosing 30-40pm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 5-6ml Flourish trace, 5-6ml Flourish Fe.


Am I missing something?

These numbers seem very high to me yet no one mentioned this so far. Tom I have been following your numbers posted at sfbaaps "A list of recommended levels and parameters" and those numbers are more like NO3 5-10ppm PO4 0.2-0.5. Is there a new line of thinking regarding dosing that I have missed reading?


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## PeterGwee (Mar 15, 2004)

Yup, the figures are correct if you think that it is being dosed 2-4x a week at 10ppm per dose for KNO3 and 1ppm per dose for KH2PO4.


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

AV8TOR said:


> Am I missing something? [...] These numbers seem very high to me yet no one mentioned this so far. Tom I have been following your numbers posted at sfbaaps "A list of recommended levels and parameters" and those numbers are more like NO3 5-10ppm PO4 0.2-0.5. Is there a new line of thinking regarding dosing that I have missed reading?


When I first started this hobby, I remember being EXTREMELY confused at Tom's "Estimative Index" article. The first few paragraphs advocate that test kits are not needed. The next few paragraphs cite numerical recommended concentrations for various nutrients. :? So my logic was that these recommended concentrations have to represent the TOTAL amount of nutrients added per week; and to translate those ppm into actual dry weight, I would have to use Chuck's Planted Aquarium Calculator. Now, I know that was a false assumption.  A revision of that article, to clarify/update some points, is IMHO greatly needed.


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## AV8TOR (Mar 28, 2004)

So if I test on a mid week and my NO3 is in the 5-8 range (LaMotte kit) I have been leaving it alone. Are you saying that I should be adding again?
Call me confused.


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## PeterGwee (Mar 15, 2004)

Well, Tom's estimative index method is actually a method derived based off the uptake rate of a very high light tank (5.5wpg) using LaMotte test kits so as to allow folks with lousy test kits or do not wish to test to have a healthy thriving tank. If you have less light over your tank, you can get away with less but it does not hurt to dose at max uptake rate as well as long as you keep up on the large water changes. Dosing rate does not equal to uptake rate for the estimative index method. There will be excess in nutrients but the notion is that as long as the plant nutrients are available and do not go to limiting ranges except for PO4 maybe, plants should do well in a CO2 enriched tank (CO2 is the critical part though). If you use good kits from LaMotte or Hach and do not mind testing week in week out, then the ranges stated is a good target to hit. Hope that helps...


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

That all depends on your current conditions and what you are trying to achieve. In this case, I am trying to get my tank back in balance and outgrow Green fuzz algae. I am dosing 10ppm NO3 and 1ppm PO4 4 times a week and 2.5ml Flourish 3 times a week, an a 10 gallon with HIGH light and CO2. Once it gets nice an balanced and all my algae has gone away for a while, then I will start toplay witht fert levels, to try and give tha plants the apperance I want. IE, lowering NO3 levels to bring out red colors, dosing more trace ferts for various reasons, lowering PO4 dosing to slow down the speed of the tank, etc. One really should not, I think, try messing with these until a tank is growing very well and has developed its own momentum. Then, a slight imbalance won't be as detrimental as quickly. IF your tank has been doing fine with your current method, no algae and satisfactory growth, then don't mess with a good thing


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Why ply with the levels when things got good?
Is a red stressed plant worth it?

No.

If you want red plants, try less light, more fish, rich CO2.
The P04 can slow the NO3 demand/uptake down if that's your goal.

Keeping a low residual of NO3 in a high light tank is very tough, doing this on a 1.5-2w/gal tank is easier.

Best reds I've ever seen on any tank to date had 2w/gal and it was consistently red, not just red for a week like that red Eustralis in the Kassleman book.

That plant is hurting and you can see it in the growing tip, but red plants catch people's eye.

Let's kil this off topic thread now, there's little left at this point on this issue of this snake oil product.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

AV8TOR said:


> dennis said:
> 
> 
> > Am I dosing enough nutrients? I made myself a spreadsheet to keep track of all of that. Average dosing 30-40pm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 5-6ml Flourish trace, 5-6ml Flourish Fe.
> ...


Those were a bit less refined and what folks had figured on with less nutrients is better thinking.
I've tried even more nutrients and other rotuines and these seem to really do well for high light tanks.

If your tank is not high light, then the other rotuines wilkl do fine also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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