# Blackworms and substrate



## Johnriggs

I got some blackworms today and dropped a few into the tank with my African dwarf frog & betta...
the betta caught one and ate it with great delight, frog knew something was up
but couldn't quite figure out what. The survivors of Firebolt the betta's
assault burrowed into the gravel and my soil substrate and vanished from site. 

Anyone with experience with blackworms know if this is typical? Will they set
up a colony under there and emerge occasionally to feed my creatures? Or die
and feed my plants? Firebolt is staring at the spot where they disappeared with
great intensity, hoping they stick their heads out again.

John R


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## Cliff Mayes

I do not know if they will eventually die or not but I once fed Blackworms to fish in a tank that had Cories in it. Worms would escape and burrow into the gravel and Cories seemed to take great delight in rooting them out. The activity level of the Cories went way up and they seemed to quiver with anticipation looking for worms. Cories are, in there own little world, predators. Yeah, they are scavengers, but they are looking for live stuff, being the captives that they are Cories will eat anything to survive.

When the tank was broken down, months later, there seemed to be a heathy colony of worms. Blackworms could very well be air breathers. I heard that they were a larvel stage of some creature but I am not sure. I never saw anything morph out of the worms and there did not seem to be any infestations in the fishroom.


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## wwh2694

I have been feeding blackworms on my discus tank for about a year now. Everytime I vac my substrate on my gravel I see alot of live BW. BW will try to go in your subtrate is not compacted. BW will eat fish poop which they love and will try to multiply on your tank. I never had any problem with it or any problem with my tanks. If you want to elimminate that, you have to feed only a little at a time without them reaching the bottom of the tank. Now I only feed BW as a snack for my Discus or if I see my Discus is getting sick. I only saw those BW on gravel substrate not on my seachem flourite which if more compacted which they cant burrow them self in there. Hope this help.


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## Supercoley1

Its actually very good for your substrate and many Cory breders will add them to the substrate of their fry tanks (bar ebotom tanks is a no no with bottom feeding fry)

Here's a quick link to some good info on planet catfish:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22784&p=129981

Hope that reassures and helps 

AC


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## Johnriggs

Thank you for the interesting and helpful replies!

My tanks are doing remarkably well; plants and creatures are happy and I want to keep it that way. Seems like I should drop a few more worms in. 

John R


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## merk1_99

Blackworms do not morph. What you see is what you get.


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## Cliff Mayes

What are Blackworms and are they air breathers?


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## vancat

http://aquaticfoods.com/Blackworms.html

awesome food for your fish.


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## Cliff Mayes

Thank you for the Site but I cannot find pertinant info about the Blackworms. They do indeed seem to be a quality food for fish, I fed them for many years, and they do not appear to be air breathers but I do not know what they are or what they turn into if anything. Perhaps the income produced for the purveyors is cause for restricting the info.


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## vancat

Googled it.
>Are blackworms mosquito larvae?

They are annelids in good standing. Carolina Biological Supply has four
articles on the California blackworm or mudworm, Lumbriculus variegatus.


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## merk1_99

http://aquaticfoods.com/Blackworms.html

Bought from aquaticfoods before. Great experience. They are easy to keep my most recent batch I have had since Feb 2009. Been feeding off a 1/4 lb for that long....I change the water every 3 days with refrigerated tank water. Put a pinch of yeast in once a week if I feel like it, and leave in the fridge. I am feeding out a bunch of caudate larvae so they are going quick. So I may need to order another 1/2 or so...When the larvae metamorph my use will drop so the worms will have time to replenish and sustain the colony. I know people who have a batch only last a month before they die, but they aren't on top of the water changes with cold tank water...

The only problem with them is the slow reproductive process so if you are using them a lot get a large supply to allow them to regen.


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## baos

I'm thinking of adding these to my npt. I am wondering if they will help replace the depleted nutrients from the soil over a period of years as I've heard good things about worm castings. Also if there will be enough food for them in the soil itself.


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## dwalstad

Fish _really_ love these Blackworms. I just bought some to increase the happiness of my Sunfish and Rainbowfish. They also help aerate the substrate, so I always add an excess to the tanks and my pond.

I am keeping the Blackworm colony in the refrigerator in a Tupperware container. I change water every 1-2 days and feed the worms powdered food (just a pinch).

These worms are aerobic, so they need water that isn't too anaerobic and stinky. I am hoping that I can keep this culture going for awhile. Attached are pictures of the worms.


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## RoseyD

I thought it was hard to start putting the fish's nutrient flourish in the fridge... but, keeping worms in the fridge... I know I spoil my pets ... but, bugs in the fridge? I've not gone to those extremes yet. 

Visitors can still open my fridge door and not find any gastly surprises...

"You want anything to eat? ... go help yourself... the fridge is well stocked... " Eek!


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## rich815

RoseyD said:


> I thought it was hard to start putting the fish's nutrient flourish in the fridge... but, keeping worms in the fridge... I know I spoil my pets ... but, bugs in the fridge? I've not gone to those extremes yet.
> 
> Visitors can still open my fridge door and not find any gastly surprises...
> 
> "You want anything to eat? ... go help yourself... the fridge is well stocked... " Eek!


My wife shares your sentiments on blackworms (sigh......sometimes miss my bachlor days!  )

What I do is use a yogurt cup with a pry off lid. I punched a few holes in the lid. I then put the worms with some tank water (not tap, the chlorime will kill them in my experience) in the yogurt cup, put on the lid, and then that whole thing into a ziploc bag with the ziploc almost all the way closed but not quite. Then I put it on the bottom shelf of the door or in the way back of the fridge at the bottom. Out of the way, no one knows it even there.


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## OrangeCones

dwalstad said:


> Fish _really_ love these Blackworms. I just bought some to increase the happiness of my Sunfish and Rainbowfish. They also help aerate the substrate, so I always add an excess to the tanks and my pond.
> 
> I am keeping the Blackworm colony in the refrigerator in a Tupperware container. I change water every 1-2 days and feed the worms powdered food (just a pinch).
> 
> These worms are aerobic, so they need water that isn't too anaerobic and stinky. I am hoping that I can keep this culture going for awhile. Attached are pictures of the worms.


These worms can be housed just as fish are. I have small gravel (and floating plants for filtration) in a 5 gallon tank. I added an airstone but not sure if its really doing anything beneficial. They can be kept the same temperature as most tropical fish (72-80). The higher the temperature, the faster they reproduce. For the 'worm tank' I do a 50% water change each week, but use water from my fish tank instead of 'new' water. (I then top off my much larger fish tanks if needed.)

I dumped 1 teaspoon (that's the way my local fish store sells it) into the tank 4 or 5 months ago. The worms seem to disappear into the substrate and only occationally stick their butts (not heads!) out from the gravel. Then just toss in a few sinking shrimp or algae pellets. They will find the food and reproduce like crazy. To harvest them, I use two methods: One is to feed one spot well a few days in a row (I pick a corner) and then skip a few days of feeding. They will hang out in the areas where the food was last and can easily be siphoned up with a turkey baster. The other method I use is to add a few hunks of filter floss to the tank, partially burying it in the gravel. Then I make a small indentation in the center of the floss and add a few of the pellets. In a few hours, the floss will be infused with a lot of worms. I then float this in the tank and watch my fish pick them out to eat.

You will get fatter/healthier worms than those kept in a cool environment. Refrigerated, they are pretty much slowing starving to death, and the later worms are less nutritious as they've lost a lot of weight while they try to survive the 'cold spell' they seem to be in.

The one teaspoon used to last me a week or 10 days to feed my fish. Last I bought them was the last of March. Almost 5 months!


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## dwalstad

Hello Orange Cones,

Thank you so much for this wonderful information! I do not want to lose these worms (they were hard to come by). After feeding my native fish Blackworms for a week, the fish (Sunfish and Shiners) suddenly started spawning. A miracle! 

In addition to the refrig tupperware culture, I do have a 10 gal tank setup for the Blackworms with soil and a few leaves and 2 inchs of water. I, too, use old tank water for water changes, as the zinc in my tapwater would probably kill them. 

Also, your comments about the worms slowly starving in the cold water makes sense. I'll transfer most of the refrigerated worms now to the 10 gal. The worms in the 10 gal seem to be doing well, but I just couldn't figure how to get them out OR what to feed them. Now I know!


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## geeks_15

I've read that you should not to give blackworms or other live worms to apistogramma. Anyone have an opinion, because I think it would be cool to have black worms living in the substrate of my El Natural?


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## OrangeCones

I've never heard that apistogramma should not be feed blackworms or any other live foods. The guy that turned me onto the information about keeping/breeding the blackworm in an aquarium breeds rams. The live foods always trigger spawning for him.


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## OrangeCones

dwalstad said:


> Hello Orange Cones,
> 
> Thank you so much for this wonderful information! I do not want to lose these worms (they were hard to come by). After feeding my native fish Blackworms for a week, the fish (Sunfish and Shiners) suddenly started spawning. A miracle!
> 
> In addition to the refrig tupperware culture, I do have a 10 gal tank setup for the Blackworms with soil and a few leaves and 2 inchs of water. I, too, use old tank water for water changes, as the zinc in my tapwater would probably kill them.
> 
> Also, your comments about the worms slowly starving in the cold water makes sense. I'll transfer most of the refrigerated worms now to the 10 gal. The worms in the 10 gal seem to be doing well, but I just couldn't figure how to get them out OR what to feed them. Now I know!


Thanks for the kind words, Diana!

The more water you provide, the healthier they seem. They do not need to breathe air as they are completely aquatic. Most that sell the worm will say you cannot keep them in an aquarium underwater. In a small container in the refrigerater, they are living in very concentrated waste and the decomposition of those that have already died due to the poor conditions. That's why you have to rinse them off every few days to get rid of the dead bodies and waste. If the word got out how easy they are to breed in a home aquarium, those that sell them would be out repeat customers. (So shhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone! HAHA!)

I did ammonia/nitrite/nitrate testing on their water at first. I got a small spike in ammonia the first few weeks but nothing that seemed to affect them as I'd added floating plants. I guess I could plant the aquarium and keep things more filtered, but it makes harvesting them more difficult when you have to chase them around among the plants.

I feed them the same foods that I'd like my fish to eat (wild-caught trying to convert to commercial foods). Since I'm still in that process with them, I 'gut load' the worms with the foods I'd like them to eat. You can also feed flakes, I just have more sinking pellets on-hand. I think a variety of their diet is important as they are being fed to fish that do well with a variety in their diet.

When feeding fry, I drop a sinking pellet in one spot, wait for it to soften, and then drop the worms with the turkey baster on the same spot. The fry come to get the worms and get a taste of the pellets also as they spar for the best worm. I'm hoping they will eventually eat the pellets alone. This has already worked to get both fry and the parents to eat frozen (thawed of course) bloodworms.

Here are a few pictures of my 'worm aquarium' and how active they are in eating/breeding. Sorry for my poor camera skills! My substrate for them is Turface.

http://s638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/OrangeCones/Blackworms/


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## dwalstad

Thanks for the pictures. Very inspiring! Today, I'm resetting up my 10 gal along the lines of your 5 gal worm tank-- gravel, airstone, and floating plants.


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## OrangeCones

Good luck with them! Let me know how it goes. I'm no expert, have made it up as I went along, but it has definately worked for me. My buddy in Texas that breeds rams (who started me doing this, thanks Ted!) says you can keep snails with them also, but no fish unless they are too small to eat them. 

I'm intrigued by this method of planted tank and will start a new thread with questions I'm sure once I get it started. Your book arrives this week, so I'll be busy reading! I plan to keep a photo journal for my own education and if I get the hang of it, will convert the other two planted tanks as time goes. I'm drooling, just thinking of the money I'll be saving on ferts (more money for more rare plants, is my way of thinking!). 

Just need a light fixture for the 20gallon, and off I go!


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## dwalstad

Two 10.5 inch clamp lights with 14 watts of screw-in CFL might work fine for a 20 gal. I'm using one for the 10 gal worm tank.


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## dwalstad

Here's pictures of my new 10 gal Blackworm tank. 

OrangeCone's idea to use floating plants to purify the "worm water" is terrific. Before, when I kept them for awhile I got tired of changing water every day.

I put food pellets for the worms on the black rubber mesh (see photo closeup of mesh and worms). I'm hoping the worms will crawl into the mesh so that I can easily harvest them. 

Mesh was cut from a saddle pad for horses. (This must be a first in the equine world.)


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## OrangeCones

Looks good! Believe me, the worms will find the food, no matter what you put it in. 

As an experiment, I put an empty babyfood jar in with several holes punched in the lid (careful to flatten out the sharp edges of the lid). I dropped in an algae wafer and sunk the jar halfway into the substrate. Within an hour the jar was 1/4 full of worms (far more than I need in a day). I wasn't sure how the worms/plants would be affected by the metal lid of the jar long-term, which is why I then tried the filter floss. If I could be sure the metal lid wouldn't hurt the tank, I'd probably use it again. It made harvesting easy, just pouring out what I needed into a brine shrimp net for rinsing before feeding them to the fish. 

I actually use the worms' tank also when I'm doing cuttings of stems. I leave the stems floating in there a few days. The worms benefit by the extra filtration and my plants benefit by staring some roots while floating around in there. Makes it easier for them to stay planted in my tiny grained substrate. 

It's win-win!


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## bosmahe1

Interesting, I have to try this.


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## Fishtory

I did a 2-gallon worm tank about a week ago, and it STINKS. I have rinsed the worms and re-done the water about 3 times now. They have an airstone, floating plants, and java moss. The whole bottom is covered with worms, is it just too many?

I started out with Tahitian sand substrate, but in an effort to keep the entire house from smelling, I took that out. Now they are in a bare-bottom tank. 

If I don't solve this soon, the spouse will toss out either me or the worms.


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## OrangeCones

I've never had any odor come from my worms' aquarium. Are the worms alive? Do they dig under the substrate you have (sorry, am not familiar with it). Once you dump them into the tank, assuming its properly aged water (I use water from an established fish tank), they should practically disappear. They should only show themselves when hungry (sticking out of the gravel) or when actually feeding on whatever you are feeding them. 

Believe me, I'd be tossed to the curb along with a stinky aquarium by my spouse!


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## Fishtory

OrangeCones said:


> Are the worms alive?


Yes.


OrangeCones said:


> Do they dig under the substrate you have (sorry, am not familiar with it).


No.I used aged water from another tank (all 3 times  ) They did't go into the substrate. they want to hover near the airstone. They smell so bad I can't let anyone in the house!


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## OrangeCones

Fishtory said:


> They did't go into the substrate. they want to hover near the airstone. They smell so bad I can't let anyone in the house!


If they smell bad, I can only assume they are decaying/decayed. Live, healthy California Blackworms should borrow into the gravel as soon as they feel it under their bodies. They've always done that with me.

I'd toss the batch you have (or keep them however else you have and feed them to the fish), and try a fresh batch from a new source.

I've started 4 of these tanks for others and my own that I still have since March. I do water changes once per week just as I do for my fish. I feed them every other day and not at all on waterchange day, so they get fed 3 times per week. I alternate between sinking shrimp pellets and algae wafers. I've seen three of the other 4 I'd started and they still are going strong. The other one is about 2 hrs drive and I haven't seen it in person, but the owner says it is working to feed her bettas.


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## Fishtory

oh, you are a worm expert! 

OK I will do what you suggest. There are many dead ones turning up now.


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## OrangeCones

I do not claim to be an expert at all! All I have learned is by trial/error. There is little if any information out there on 'the net' about how to cultivate these worms.

I had to start doing this due to the inability of any local fish store to get them in on a regular basis. After 3 weeks and no good (read: live/healthy) worms in, I gave up. But I still had wild-caught fish that were not eating prepared foods yet. I had been feeding the live blackworms with added thawed out frozen bloodworms. They were reluctantly eating just the thawed bloodworms. 

I did not have the space to store a 2pound delivery of live blackworms, which was the smallest size I could find to be delivered. When I went to the LFS again, I asked that if I ordered the worms, could I have them delivered prepaid to his store, and I'd come get SOME of them that day, and the rest he could keep to sell, feed to his fish, whatever he wanted to do.

He said he was getting some new ones in the next day from a different supplier, and to come get some when they arrived so they'd be the freshest. He was not convinced that they could be cultivated in an aquarium, but was willing to 'let me try' as he said. If this didn't work, he'd do the prepaid box from yet another supplier for me (he saw it as a no-brainer, he got free stuff to use/sell). 

If you can, talk to your local stores to find out what days they are getting the worm shipments in. Then go THAT DAY to get some. They should pack them in a plastic bag just like fish, but likely very little water. If you turn the bag on its side, you should see them clearly wiggling. If they are cold, give them a few minutes to warm up to room temperature (this is where I would say 'I'm going to leave these here by the register, I want to look around some more at other stuff.' haha). If after warming up a bit, they are not clearly wiggling around in the bag, then they are not fresh, and pass on them (at least for the worm 'tank' idea). 

I had my first worm-tank set up with floating plants and the substrate (had Turface left over from another project, so tried it). Depending on your temperature, you may need a heater. I have one but haven't used it yet, as the water has been steady at 76-77 degrees like the rest of my aquariums. I had filled their tank with water from one of my aquariums, as I'd been told that 'fresh' water, even properly treated, sometimes gave them a shock. I then drip-acclimated the worms to the tankwater, just as I do a new fish. I dumped the worms into a brine-shrimp net to discard the water they were in, and just dumped them out into their new tank. They landed in a 'glump' (my husband's term) and just sat at the bottom. Within 2 or 3 mins though, they were gone from sight. The only way I knew where they were was by the slight 'mound' of the substrate where they had burrowed in. 

I fed them the first time the next morning. At first, the food just sat where it landed, but within a few hours, the worms were crawling all over the food. I alternate what half of the substrate to drop their food now (giving them exercise?) They always seem to find it. 

You asked before about the volume of worms, saying they were covering the whole bottom of the tank. If you get fresh worms, just drop a teaspoon amount into a 2 gallon tank. That will be plenty. I started all of mine (from 2 gallons to 10 gallons) all with the same amount, 1 teaspoon (that's the way the fish store sells them, by teaspoon or tablespoon). 

Please let me know if you have better luck with a new batch.


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## dwalstad

Fishtory said:


> I did a 2-gallon worm tank about a week ago, and it STINKS. I have rinsed the worms and re-done the water about 3 times now. They have an airstone, floating plants, and java moss. The whole bottom is covered with worms, is it just too many?


Yes. You overloaded the tank. If the tank stinks, it means you have worms dying and decomposing anaerobically. Not good, as these worms are aerobic. When the system goes anaerobic, they will die and make things worse. You get a tank "melt-down".

Other than that, it sounds like you set up a nice tank.

I would add just a small amount of worms. If conditions are right, they will gradually multiply to the carrying capacity of your particular ecosystem. Even a worm tank probably requires a couple months to get properly established and increase the "carrying capacity".

That said, I'm still working on my own worm tank. Had a couple setbacks, so I admit that it is tricky.


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## dymndgyrl

What were your setbacks, Diana?

I'm thinking about a worm tank - it certainly sound like the better way to go as opposed to a tupperware in the fridge. I like the way Orangecones mentioned to catch them - a babyfood jar with bait and holes.


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## OrangeCones

dymndgyrl said:


> I like the way Orangecones mentioned to catch them - a bayfood jar with bait and holes.


It's not 'bait,' it's food.......shhhhhhhhh, don't tell the worms otherwise!


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## BillSnow

I have a couple questions on this subject...

So... I'm looking to find a good worm type feeder that I can culture on a semi-small scale for a few dwarf puffers... small but HUNGRY little buggers... I know they WILL eat them, but I'm unsure as to the overall nutritional value...

1: Would you suggest this as a primary meal option for them (supplemented with snails and likely ghost shrimp)?... most usually use frozen blood worms as the main meal, but I'm liking the option of growing my own... and there's always that benefit of it being live food as they are finicky when it comes to non-moving foods...

2: How big of a culture would i be looking at to feed them?.... note that I'm planning on three fish which should each be capable of eating 5 or so worms every 1-2 days... so lets assume I'm pulling out 10 worms a day... how big of an aquarium would i need for the worms to reproduce and keep up with that kind of loss?

3: Would it be possible to share water circulation with the main tank... which will be a natural planted tank... or do the worms put off too much waste?... or is it too risky that i have a worm die off thus polluting the main tank as well?... note that I'm actually debating growing the worms IN an overflow box off the main tank... crazy idea but I'm crazy like that... there's just something about having wasted space that makes me twitch...

4: You had mentioned some interesting harvesting methods... but I'd like to pose another... had an idea of sort of a feeding stand... imagine a short cylinder of say a 3 inch diameter that has a divider dead center so that you essentially have a cup facing up and a cup facing down... drill smallish holes through the divider big enough for the worms to go through... then section off parts of the bottom half... essentially turning the object into a cup on legs (but with holes in the bottom of the cup)... you stick this down into the substrate... so that now you have a little cup sitting above the substrate that worms can get into from below (or i guess climb over the rim)... and you feed them in the cup... thus allowing you to just use a pipette or turkey baster or whatever to suck the worms off as they feed.... what are your thoughts on that?... would it work?... I'm just looking into a slightly easier way for me to harvest the worms as i will only be pulling small numbers out rather than massive clumps of them...

Sorry for the mass of questions but I like to have a plan when it comes to building something new... rather than trial and error and risk killing fish / plants in the process...

- Bill

edit: i guess an easier way of doing the feeder in question 4 is glue a small plastic cup to one of those pizza box stands (that keep the cheese from sticking to the top of the box)... and then drill holes through....


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## OrangeCones

BillSnow said:


> 1: Would you suggest this as a primary meal option for them (supplemented with snails and likely ghost shrimp)?... most usually use frozen blood worms as the main meal, but I'm liking the option of growing my own... and there's always that benefit of it being live food as they are finicky when it comes to non-moving foods...


I fed my dwarf puffers snails and bloodworms when I kept them (a few years ago), long before I'd stumbled across blackworms. I'm no expert on the proper feeding of the fish, so really can't advise on that. What I do with my blackworms that I breed, is that I feed the worms a variety of foods (flake, algae wafers, shrimp pellets, etc.). I look at it as 'gut loading' the worm for the fish that will eat it.



BillSnow said:


> 2: How big of a culture would i be looking at to feed them?.... note that I'm planning on three fish which should each be capable of eating 5 or so worms every 1-2 days... so lets assume I'm pulling out 10 worms a day... how big of an aquarium would i need for the worms to reproduce and keep up with that kind of loss?


I started with 1 teaspoon of blackworms (didn't count them, sorry!), in a 5 gallon aquarium, purchaced in May this year. I feed an adult male Badis badis, 4 adult females Badis badis, and 18 fry (not sure if they are considered fry, they are 1 inch long now), and 11 Celestial Pearl Danios. I harvest every other day for the Badis fish, and 1 time per week for the Danios. I get in a week about 50-75 worms. No sign of running out.



BillSnow said:


> 3: Would it be possible to share water circulation with the main tank... which will be a natural planted tank... or do the worms put off too much waste?... or is it too risky that i have a worm die off thus polluting the main tank as well?... note that I'm actually debating growing the worms IN an overflow box off the main tank... crazy idea but I'm crazy like that... there's just something about having wasted space that makes me twitch...


I wouldn't do it, but that's just me. I'd be afraid of polluting the main tank if something went wrong. As far as the waste they put off, other than the 1st week, I've never detected any ammonia, and no nitrite or nitrates ever. I use floating plants as a biological filter, and also throw clippings from the main tanks of stems until I get around to either selling the plants or replanting them.



BillSnow said:


> 4: You had mentioned some interesting harvesting methods... but I'd like to pose another... had an idea of sort of a feeding stand... imagine a short cylinder of say a 3 inch diameter that has a divider dead center so that you essentially have a cup facing up and a cup facing down... drill smallish holes through the divider big enough for the worms to go through... then section off parts of the bottom half... essentially turning the object into a cup on legs (but with holes in the bottom of the cup)... you stick this down into the substrate... so that now you have a little cup sitting above the substrate that worms can get into from below (or i guess climb over the rim)... and you feed them in the cup... thus allowing you to just use a pipette or turkey baster or whatever to suck the worms off as they feed.... what are your thoughts on that?... would it work?... I'm just looking into a slightly easier way for me to harvest the worms as i will only be pulling small numbers out rather than massive clumps of them...


Sounds interesting..If you do it, let me know how it works. I like the turkey baster in the corners method the best!


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## BillSnow

Thanks for the reply... good to know that a 5 gal should suit my needs... and I'd likely be 'gut loading' them as well so I guess that covers the whole nutritional aspect of it...

Is there any big reason why you wouldn't try a connected tank?... as in what part of it would you be worried about?... anything that I could balance out to make it a non-issue?...

If it needs to be separated I'm sure I'll manage... would be nice if it were connected though... I don't have all that much space for another tank sitting around... even a small one... and not needing to do a worm tank water change would be pretty nice...


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## OrangeCones

If you are diligent about water parameter testing, you could try it. I had a 'spike' of about 0.5 in ammonia the 1st week, twice, which was caused by overfeeding the worms I think. I don't have an overflow area to utilize, so didn't try that. I use floating plants to soak up any ammonia they produce. I'm not sure if you'd do that in the overflow area, but just be aware that you'd be putting ammonia into your main tank. If you have the biological filtration to support it, go for it. I do not see the worms in my 5gallon producing any more ammonia than a couple of small fish.


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## BillSnow

ahh cool... thanks for the quick reply...

sounds like it's worth the test... should be able to support a small increase in ammonia without issue... i'll have to give it a go... if things start looking off i can always separate them i guess...


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## OrangeCones

If you use a good dechlorinator like PRIME, you should be able to handle any spike that may occur. Please let us know how it goes!


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## dwalstad

Just wanted to report on my 10 gal Blackworm tank. I set it up about 6 weeks ago (Aug 24, 2009) following along the lines of OrangeCones recipe and general concepts (use plants to purify water and treat the worms like fish).

I set up the tank as follows:


added a soil layer (clay garden soil), mainly to provide iron for the floating and emergent plants (submerged plants probably won't do well in this setup because of the aerator degassing CO2)
used an aerator to keep water safely oxygenated (otherwise it will be stinking mess)
used a 13 watt CFL with a 10.5 inch clamplight reflector (need decent lighting for emergent plants) 
added a couple tablespoons of worms to start the culture without overloading the ecosystem

Below are pictures of the tank and worms at 6 weeks.

So far, things are going well. I collected about a tablespoon of worms yesterday to feed the fish. However, I think my culture is still young and most worms are still juveniles, because the worms are smaller than what I remember buying. So I'm going to wait on harvesting until the population matures a little more so that I start harvesting adult blackworms.

I feed the worms generously with fishfood pellets, chopped meats, crushed snails, etc on the 3 little fibrous mats at the front of the tanks (see photo). In this setup, the more food the better. To harvest, I quickly remove the 3 mats and transfer them to a water-filled tray where I can better collect the worms. I let the mats (worms are entertwined with the polyester fibers) sit at one end of tray. I put food at the other end of tray, so that the worms gradually migrate (takes a day or so) out of the mats and to where the worms can easily be collected and washed over next several days.

In the meantime, I have put down other clean mats in the worm tank and started feeding the worms on the mats. So I rotate the matts.

What I also like is that this is perfect environment for Water Sprite and other emergent plants that sometimes don't do well in my fishtanks.


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## LVKSPlantlady

I want to try this so bad but I dont know where i can get some worms, no pet store in the kansas city area sell these guys and i have yet to convince my boyfriend that it's a good idea to spend 40 bucks for .75 lbs of worms on the net!


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## OrangeCones

dwalstad said:


> What I also like is that this is perfect environment for Water Sprite and other emergent plants that sometimes don't do well in my fishtanks.


I've had several plants flower when left floating in the 'worm tank.' It also gives my cuttings from stem plants a start on some roots, making transplanting to other tanks or giving them away easier.

Good to hear others having some success with this. I do NOT miss having worms in my fridge!


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## BillSnow

Can either of you (OrangeCones or dwalstad) offer up any updates on your worm tanks?...

Are they still running fine now a year later?... I had such big plans for my own then life got in the way and I never got to build the tank for them... But now I'm in the mood to finally give it a shot...

I guess I'm most interested in finding out if after all this time either of you made any big revelations and changed something in the base setup for the better for whatever reason... 

Also, does there appear to be any requirement to the substrate?... I have an extra bag of gravel (decorative "pea stones") sitting outside that would be a significant increase in pebble size compared to orangecones' setup... But if there are no real requirements on the substrate, it would save me a trip to the store 

-Bill


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## mudboots

Ditto! How are these working long term?


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## LigouriRd.

I cannot speak for a really longterm setup but I have been succesfully cultivating blackworms for the past three months or so. 
My setup is a roughly 1 gal acrylic aquarium, with pea gravel, some locally harvested anacharis, and an airstone. It took about a month for the worms to establish themselves. I would buy a new pound every couple of weeks starting out but the I have not bought any in the past month and a half. The worms I pull out (via a straw dipped into the tank with air in it and then suddenly let out) are fairly small but a dozen or so per day is more than enough for my fish.


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## ddavila06

im very happy this thread was brough up, i did not know that black worms would survive under water...i avoid buying live onesfrom the pet store because of disease, but maybe from group buys from the local fish club and give them a try in my 2.5 natural tank...thanks guys!


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## LigouriRd.

So far I have not had any increase in disease since feeding blackworms, however when I get a new batch I thoughally wash them to clear out the dead ones and other stuff that comes with them. I also wash the ones that come out of my worm tank before feeding them to the fish. There is a lot of dirt that comes out with the worms when I harvest them.


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## redchigh

Most of the descriptions of tanks on here mention floating plants only...

Is there any reason you couldn't have the worm tank fully planted?
Or just drop worms into the fish tank to reproduce (Assuming you don't drop in too many. To be safe, maybe a tablespoon for ten-gallon tanks)?

I have an extremely irregular work schedule... Sometimes I'm not home for several days... I was thinking this might be the solution...

The worms get hungry and come out to be eaten by the hungry fish...


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## LigouriRd.

There was a thread I remember reading about deep sand substrates and the author had blackworms living in it. The last couple of times i stocked up I dumped half a pound into my NPT to try to get them established there as well. No issues to speak of (I am battling BGA but that should not be an of consequence).


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## mudboots

redchigh said:


> Most of the descriptions of tanks on here mention floating plants only...
> 
> Is there any reason you couldn't have the worm tank fully planted?
> Or just drop worms into the fish tank to reproduce (Assuming you don't drop in too many. To be safe, maybe a tablespoon for ten-gallon tanks)?
> 
> I have an extremely irregular work schedule... Sometimes I'm not home for several days... I was thinking this might be the solution...
> 
> The worms get hungry and come out to be eaten by the hungry fish...


I can't imagine they'd be any worse than a good colony of MTS, which I actually count on to keep my substrate moving around. I also can't imagine they'd ever have a chance to reach damaging population size if you have cory cats in a tank. I've always wanted to toss some into my 125, but I don't want to buy a pound, and there aren't a whole lot of folks in this area interested in live blackworms.


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## TonyVideo

Ok, I have purchased a 10 gal. tank kit with free points from my LFS. I also bought a small cupful of blackworms from the LFS as well. I plan on this week adding 1-2 mm substrate when in arrives along with small air pump and filter. I decided against soil as the bottom layer since I will be using tank water from my 75g which is a high tech set up. This should provide my existing watersprite with enough nutrients with weekly 50% water changes. The kit came with a a heater and filter so I will use these treating this setup just like I would with fish. I fed my fish for the first time with a small amount of the blackworms and they just went crazy once they tasted it. I have never seen them this crazy. Live food really does the trick. I can't wait to get my 10gal tank setup going now. I plan on getting the small filter started in my 75gal to get bacterial going before transferring to the 10gal tank. Would there be any reason to put my new purchase of blackworms in the refrigerator since I will be putting them in the 10gal tank in a few days once all set up? I could put an algae wafer in the pan for now to get them feeding.


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## PeterE

I gotta get myself some of these critters! They sound like the perfect live food! I don't think I have the space to let them have their own aquarium, if I do get them, but I do have a lightly stocked six gallon aquarium. Do you guys think a colony of worms would survive in the substrate very long with fish?


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## TonyVideo

PeterE said:


> I gotta get myself some of these critters! They sound like the perfect live food! I don't think I have the space to let them have their own aquarium, if I do get them, but I do have a lightly stocked six gallon aquarium. Do you guys think a colony of worms would survive in the substrate very long with fish?


Do you have access to blackworms from your LFS? If so I would just get a VERY small amount and they are inexpensive and just feed them a couple of times a week and put the rest in a small tupperware disposable square pan with a couple of holes in it. I am feeding a couple of large tanks with about 50 fish and my wife didn't want these blackworms in HER (supposed to be ours) fridge long term.  I am just learning with these worms so others may have a better suggestion.

I also plan on finding a used dorm fridge (may be hard to find with college just starting up) and put it in my office and once I harvest a few I would keep them in there as normal until gone and go through the process all over again. Plus it may be beneficial to starve them a little to thin them a little before feeding. I may have a couple of batches in rotation that I pull out about a week or two apart. Again I am just learning and will be tweaking this as I go as to what really works.


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## TonyVideo

I fed my fish today with the Blackworms and tried something interesting. I dropped them into my watersprite. The fish loved looking through and picking out the worms. This kept them entertained for a couple of hours as they kept looking for them. Along the way they cleaned out the mulm in the watersprout. It was interesting to see them look for their food instead of the convenient normal way of just dropping food in.


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## TonyVideo

I wanted to update my 10g blackworm tank. They are multiplying. I have put a snail in as well. I put my plant trimmings in the tank and have seen them devour the dead plants that sink to the bottom. 

I have CaribSea sand of about 1 inch on the bottom. They borrow in the sand when I come near or add plants. I feed them algea wafers every so often. I am going to try some other things as well. 

I am using a turkey baster to get them out but it is very time consuming. I might try putting some food in a jar or doing Diane's mat method to see if it is easier. I use the baster near algae wafers as they huddle around those all the time to suck them up.

I will have a problem however as apparently from one of my trimmings I have a lot of fry that hatched. I am not sure what they are yet but should know in a week or two. I have been feeding them dried brine shrimp blended and mixed with water before putting the mixture in the tank. This seams to work for now. When they get a little bigger they should have plenty of food before I figure out what to do with them as my 75g tank is populated to the max. My LFS will probably take them as they want any surplus blackworms. 

I use a sponge filter in the corner and was using a small hang on that came with the aquarium but with the fry I have turned the hang on filter off for now. 

I will post more as I know more.


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## potatoes

is there any problem if there population is not keept down by bottom dwelling fish, and then they die of age in the substrate? do you think they will eat their own dead, or will it just rot? i am intersted in adding these to my el natural, but i dont want rotting worms in my soil lol


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## TonyVideo

It is my impression that they don't die of old age. They continually divide when they reach a certain point. I have not researched that aspect of it. Like anything some of them may just die on their own but decompose. I doubt if they died they would do any damage to your substrate but be used as fertilizer at that point by the roots. The only issue would be if you had a large quantity and something killed them all at once then you might have issues.


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## mossback

The consensus may be that blackworms reproduce primarily by fission, but I know I have seen at least one report (different forum, I think) that they were reproducing sexually. The poster arrived at this conclusion after observing lots of worms that were so small (no thicker than a thread) that they could not have been fragments of adult worms, as well as what appeared to be cocoons. This was probably on the thread that LigouriRd referred to -- I recall that they were being kept in an aquarium with a deep sand bed substrate and a water column of normal depth, not the couple of inches that Drewes recommended. 

I don't recall reading anything about their mortality, life span, etc. My guess is that they do have a definite life span, die right there in the substrate, and are consumed by their descendants pretty quickly without any problem at all. 

As for something killing them all at once: how sensitive are they to the deworming medications used to get rid of planaria and hydra? Maybe they would tolerate it. But if not, that's a constraint on exterminating planaria/hydra that would be nice to know about.


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## TonyVideo

It looks like to me that all new ones are very thin and then fatten up. I have quite a few but they just barely stick up out of the sand during the day because of the Rainbow fry that I need to sell once they get a little bigger. I have turned the light on at night and there is a thick carpet of them in 1/2 the aquarium. The majority tend to stay on one side for some reason. ???


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## potatoes

Wow thats awesome, i diddnt know they could do that. i had an idea for people who want them but dont want to spend 50$ on a quarter lb of live worms. could we just ship them to eachother like we ship plants? i dont know about laws and regulations, but if they can live in a tupperware in the fridge i dont see why they couldnt live in a bag for three days.


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## Frogbit

I am a huge fan of keeping a colony of live worms in the substrate of any aquarium. Using this method, I was able to keep a pair of African dwarf frogs, who are slow and stupid at finding food, in the same tank with Praecox rainbowfish, who are fast and frenzied eaters, without any feeding problems. It is ideal for easily feeding gobies, bettas, puffers, dwarf cories... anything that would normally be hard to feed, or outcompeted in a community tank.

I only have one word of caution, and that is to make sure you either
1) buy clean worms,
2) clean the worms very well yourself, or
3) breed them yourself to make sure they are clean,
before colonizing your main substrate with them. I bought a batch of worms only a day or two after they arrived at my local pet shop, and they hadn't had time to be cleaned thoroughly yet. I put them in my tank after only a couple of brief rinses, and lost one frog and three fish to bloat as a result. So I believe the reason live worms have a reputation for causing bloat is only because of people feeding them dirty, like I did, instead of waiting until they are properly cleaned out. Clean worms = vibrantly healthy fish, dirty worms = bloat.

Also, I don't believe tubifex are so much dirtier than blackworms, just make sure they are clean, like I said, before adding them to the substrate. I am trying tubifex, because from what I have observed, they seem to hold up to constant predation better than blackworms, so it will be easier to maintain a good supply. Plus, they wiggle more, which is tantilizing to the fish. If you've ever seen a tantilized fish, you know what I mean, LOL.


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## RESET

This sounds really cool. I think I am going to try this as soon as my tank has a substrate in it. I doubt my GF will let me set up another tank just for worms so they will have to be in my main tank. I bet my bullheads will love it. It should take care of the extra food that I put in there too, I have a couple dead circulation spots that extra food gathers in. This should bring them to the surface to get eaten. I will probably have to put them in while I am putting in the substrate because I don't think the sunfish would let them hit the bottom.


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## Michael

Frogbit, what do you mean by "cleaned out" and how do you do it? This might work for my Apistogramas.

Thanks!


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## Frogbit

Well, they harvest the live worms from some gross places, so I think it's best to either rinse them daily for a week in the fridge, or keep them in a seperate clean aquarium for a week, that gives them time to poop the grossness out of their little bodies before your fish eat them. My LFS rinses their live worms daily, so I ask them how long ago they recieved their current batch, and I don't buy them unless they've been there a week or more.

You can tell if there's something wrong with a portion of worms, from the look and smell of them. If they are a dull color, with lots of dead worms and debris, or if their water is very cloudy they might be a bad batch. Also, healthy worms should hold together firmly in a tight ball when disturbed.

I like the idea in this thread of having a small worm-only quarantine tank. Raising your own worm culture would give you peace of mind, knowing they are not contaminated. It would be great if the live worms would breed fast enough in my main aquarium to constantly replace themselves as fast as they are eaten, but that hasn't been my experience yet, at least not with the blackworms I've tried. I think the worms need more mulm than most people have in their aquarium. They seem to be scavengers, feeding on leaf litter and decomposing things in the mud.


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## flashbang009

I keep blackworms for my fish, and they're honestly a pain for me. I keep them in a dorm fridge in a tupperware container so that they all have room to spread out. I barely cover them with water and rinse everyday. However, they die off quickly and produce a LOT of waste. I make sure i rinse them everyday, but it's just a pain. Also, any time I try to feed them it just breaks down and pollutes the water even more...


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## potatoes

I bought some "blackworms" today for my NPT because i want them to eat the dead leaves at the bottom so i dont need to fish them out. I want these to colonize the substrate and become permanent residents, and thankfully I did some research on the blackworms before adding them. I learned that they recoil and swim away when touched. Mine do not do that, and only curl into one ball of hundreds of worms. I am now highly suspicious that i was sold tubifex worms, not black worms. Will they work just the same, or should i return them and find real blackworms?
thanks


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## flwrbed

i find live black worms in my planted 75 all the time. i have not feed that tank blackworms for years. it has had many fish over the years and i still find a few when i move a stone or move a plant.

they always look very healthy and fat. 

i have heard of using shredded brown paper sack in the bottom of the tank also. i have been looking for the thread, i will find it sometime when i am not looking.


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## ming shipwreck

I have 1" of soil under 1/2" of sand under 1/2" of gravel. Do you think blackworms would colonize that?


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## redchigh

potatoes said:


> I bought some "blackworms" today for my NPT because i want them to eat the dead leaves at the bottom so i dont need to fish them out. I want these to colonize the substrate and become permanent residents, and thankfully I did some research on the blackworms before adding them. I learned that they recoil and swim away when touched. Mine do not do that, and only curl into one ball of hundreds of worms. I am now highly suspicious that i was sold tubifex worms, not black worms. Will they work just the same, or should i return them and find real blackworms?
> thanks


If they're in a group and were refrigerated, they're probably craving darkness. That explains why they're huddling together.

Add a little tank water and swish them around. IF they form a new ball, then they're healthy blackworms.


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## peanuty

about to give this a try in a week or so.
pretty keen to see how it goes, shall keep you posted


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## ming shipwreck

It might be a good idea to add them slowly, a few at a time, and let them sit in the fridge with daily water changes for a few days before adding. I had a serious tank crash right around the time I added about 15-20 worms (the tank is 20 gallon long). A few of my white clouds that ate them died, the water clouded up something fierce. I guess they are not good food for small fish? The crayfish ate a few and they're fine... There is another likely reason for the cloudy water (rising temp, decaying stick decoration), so I don't want to say for sure it was the worms, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case...


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## Skizhx

Hmmmm...

This is interesting... The method I've been planning to follow for black worms involves tearing up brown paper towel (like the kind you see in public bathrooms to dry your hands) into strips and covering the bottom of the container with about 2 inches of water overtop.

The idea being that the paper towel allows the worms to be burrowed and covered, but can be easily moved for hassle-free harvesting. The worms also use the paper towel as food, as well as a bit of fish food sprinkled in for them.

However reading this thread has me thinking...

What if instead of floating plants, we just let the tank get green water, and then kept daphnia as well in the same tank?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as my knowledge tells me, this could potentially be a self-sustaining setup to cultivate two of the best live foods in the same aquarium.
The algae would help clean the water, the daphnia would feed on the green water, the worms would feed on the daphnia waste, and the worm waste would feed the green water... And all you'd need is a light source.


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