# "Iwagumi" style possible with El Natural Tanks?



## Revernance

Has anyone tried this method with el natural tanks before? I searched this forum, but couldn't find any Iwagumi threads. I know the whole point of an el natural is to have a plethora of plants. Would it be possible to use a fast growing carpeting plant, mixed with a type of grass to create the Iwagumi?  This means that a Iwagumi El Natural tank would be able to support a very low bioload because of the moderate growth rates of plants. 
oh a pic of what I was hoping for: 


















LOL!!! replace the asterisk with "s.h.i.t", without the quotation and the periods! It's a Japanese word I think! I got filtered ahaha.

Thoughts? Ideas?


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## bpimm

Hairgrass will grow in a NPT, I have been experimenting with a similar idea.

10 Gal soil with black sand 1 ODNO 18" T-8, Duetto for water movement.










This tank started out with a blue green algae problem, it never took over but it didn't loose ground either, I let it fight it for about 2 months before I trimmed the plants and grass to remove the majority of it. it's starting to come back a little now.

The hairgrass doesn't grow as thick and is not as dark green as it does in the tank with CO2 and more light but it does ok.

Give it a try, just be patient.

Brian


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## mistergreen

give it lots of sun light too.
Glosso & HC don't do very well from my experience... They won't die but the growth is excruciatingly slow.


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## Wiedertäufer

My latest tank hasn't even been set up a month yet, but I'm finding my E. Tenellus (pygmy chain sword) that is commonly used as a carpet is growing nicely. Started with 8 plants and already have 9 and a tiny one. I use a little higher light than other people do though-- 52 watts of 6500K and 15w of 3400k on a 22 gallon-- that's a touch over 3 wpg. I also have calcium carbonate sand right in my substrate because my water is so soft.


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## Revernance

bpimm - Do you mean the hairgrass, Elocharis parvula? 
mistergreen - I have the same problem with glossostigma, it grows so slow! I have been much better luck with HC. 
Wiedertäufer - You are lucky you have softwater! I want to keep angel fishes and discus, but I'm not going to start messing with water chemistry now! How you you taking care of your E. Tenellus. I had a chunk of them, and they were the only ones in my NPT tank to die.


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## Wiedertäufer

It's nothing special I'm doing. I just have lots of light, really nutrient rich soil-- I planted the e tenellus in the soil before I put the other substrate down even though it's a rhizome plant-- I decided to treat it like a root plant instead. I also keep my tank fairly warm at 82. E. Tenellus like warmth.

Everyone has unexplained plant death to a degree (though the mystery can be solved). I have had terrible luck with Java ferns. They should be easy to grow, but they just keep turning black (really, really dark brown) on me. They're starting to recover (or at least no more of them is turning black) but I don't know if they'll make it. I've heard that hornwort can really out compete them and I have a large amount of that, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on. Could be that the java fern doesn't like the 82 F?

My latest problem is a diatom (brown algae) breakout. I introduced more floating plants to help combat it and am thinking of getting some ameca splendens or some rosy barbs as I've heard they eat it. I also introduced a morimo ball because I know that directly competes with pretty much all algae (it is technically algae). I don't know if a UV skimmer or a 1 micron or lower filter helps with brown algae though, but that's something I might do.

As for the soft water, I don't really like it. All my previous aquarium experience was in a place with really hard water and I'm really having to adjust my thinking and approach. I had some hornwort just melt in one tank because of a calcium deficiency. I didn't even think to test the water having only ever been in a place with hard water with tons of calcium.

I generally like harder water species. hard water cichlids, snails, invertebrates, etc.,. I've never really got into discus and I actually dislike angels quite strongly. It's the way they float and move quickly (but sort of flexing and bending as they move fast) and how they look all pretty but are actually pure evil inside. When other fish are aggressive to one another, they look like angry animals trying to fight for survival. When an Angel goes after another fish it looks like a cold, calculating serial killer. Pure evil I tell you! (I still think they're cool fish and can look great in a tank-- just not any of mine)

Anyway, about carpet plants -- getting a bright green carpet might be hard as a lot of the carpet plants that grow well in lower light conditions or without CO2 grow dark in such conditions. I'm hoping the E. Tenellus really takes off and holds it's colour, but I'm also doing 3 wpg. I'm even contemplating adding CO2, but this could really deplete the nutrients in my substrate faster than feeding the fish replenishes them.

Another thing that NPT's often have (for good reason) is floating plants. These can really take a lot of the light that might otherwise go down to the carpet plants. This might sound strange, but I've heard people get good results in such situations by having extra lighting go through the side(s) of the tank. This is how I'm growing my Blyxa Aubertii -- I have a seperate 15w bulb shining in the side of the tank. I imagine this would work for carpet plants. You will however, eventually hit the limiting factor of CO2. And if you start dosing that, and soil depletes faster than you replenish it, you may have to start dosing fertilizers. Then you're pretty much out of the NPT realm and into high tech.


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## bpimm

Revernance said:


> bpimm - Do you mean the hairgrass, Elocharis parvula?


Yes.


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## flagg

Wiedertäufer, you make some very excellent points. Interestingly, I too have some java fern and none of it has ever done really well. Mine is also turning black. My water, however, is very hard, unlike yours.

As for E. tenellus, I think this would be the way to go, to get an _iwagumi_ layout. Revernance: have you been reading Amano's _iwagumi_ series in TFH? B/c ever since I got the last issue I've been contemplating setting up my 125 gal as an _iwagumi_ setup (I think a natural scenery like that would look awesome in a 6' long tank) and have been wondering the same thing as you. My only problem issue is, as Wiedertäufer mentioned, lighting. I think to achieve this kind of setup you'd need to put the tank in front of a sunny window so the surface plants (which I agree should be used) don't block out all of the light reaching the bottom plants. Unfortunately, the window my tank is by doesn't get direct sunlight, and at 2.3 wpg I'm worried that I won't have enough lights for the setup.

Let use know if you try it and keep it posted.

-ricardo


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## Revernance

Wiedertäufer- I love cichlids myself, but I wouldn't dare put them in a NPT tank! Although i was thinking of getting a pair of bolivian ram to put in a new 29 gal NPT tank! 

Flagg- I have not read Amano's iwagumi series. I was thinking about an iwagumi setup before i went to bed a few days ago ahahaha. 

I might try an iwagumi setup with a 2.5 gallon. I'm thinking of Elocharis parvula, or HC, or E. Tenellus. that way, if it really is a disaster, there won't be much loss. 

but for right now, Bolivian rams in an 29 gallon NPT tank sounds lovely!


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## Wiedertäufer

Revernance said:


> Wiedertäufer- I love cichlids myself, but I wouldn't dare put them in a NPT tank!


The only cichlids I have in my NPT are Cutter's Cichlids (Cichlasoma septemfasciatum) where don't eat healthy plants and don't dig. They occasionally will take a nibble at the substrate if there's a chunk of food there, and they also took nibbles off a plant that melted when I had a calcium deficiency once, but other than that, I've never seen them do any digging or plant eating.


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## Wiedertäufer

flagg said:


> Wiedertäufer, you make some very excellent points. Interestingly, I too have some java fern and none of it has ever done really well. Mine is also turning black. My water, however, is very hard, unlike yours.


My water is currently quite hard. I've heavily buffered it with both ocean rock and calcium carbonate sand in the substrate. My current water stats are pH 7.2, KH 8 and GH 15. My java fern is still black/dark brown. It's been that way in both my original soft water and in this now harder water. I've read some people find it doesn't do well with hornwort competing with it, which is something I have a lot of, so that could be the problem.



> As for E. tenellus, I think this would be the way to go, to get an _iwagumi_ layout.


One thing I noticed with E. tenellus is that in an NPT, it doesn't really live up to it's common name "pygmy chain sword." There's nothing pygmy about it. In my tank, it's not staying short and mass producing more plants, all of the plants are growing quite tall before they send a rhizome out and reproduce. Some of the leaves on mine might be close to 5 or 6 inches long. I know that's still within the range of how that plant will grow, but I've read that people keeping it in a 4 wpg with CO2 and ferts get a carpet type covering of 3" plants quite quickly. I'm still confident it's going to spread out and keep reproducing, but I think the carpet effect will be a little sparser and made up of fewer larger plants covering the bottom rather than a larger quantity of plants that are smaller.

Another carpet plant that will work in an NPT would be java moss. Or Riccia. The problem with both of those in low light situations though, is that they get very dark green (sometimes bordering on brown). If someone doesn't mind the much darker colour for the carpet, then such mosses might be an acceptable choice for a lower light, no CO2 tank.


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## DrewSF77

I was considering the following species for a good ground cover, and think they could work smashingly in an el-natural iwagumi:

- Marsilea minuta (aquatic clover)









- Marsilea quadrifolia (aquatic clover) 









They're supposedly quite low-light and low CO2 tolerant. Has anyone tried these plants in an NPT? What do you think?


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## flagg

DrewSF77 said:


> - Marsilea quadrifolia (aquatic clover)
> 
> They're supposedly quite low-light and low CO2 tolerant. Has anyone tried these plants in an NPT? What do you think?


I've tried the M. quadrifolia but didn't have much success with it, only because it was difficult to plant and keep planted. The stuff that did take hold did pretty well, but it is a slow grower. I'd make sure to get lots of the stuff.

-ricardo


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## Robert Hudson

Another possibility is Lilaeopsis mauritius. It is a short, grass like plant that grows and spreads as a "lawn" ground cover. This specie spreads much quicker and under much lower light than it's more common cousin. Although I have not tried it, I think it would thrive in a soil substrate.


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## mistergreen

Lilaeopsis brasiliensis does pretty well in my tanks too.


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## Revernance

Drew- I love the rasbora pictures. I want to get a school of those but my LFS do not carry them!  

Wiedertäufer - I'm considering Cutter's cichlid or a pair of Bolivian rams for this project. I love the colors of the bolivian rams! 

I'm considering Eleocharis parvula for my Iwagumi NPT. 
Robert and Mister green- Lilaeopsis species sounds good too. I will see if they carry this at my LFS. Thanks for the suggestion. 

Summary: 
Eleocharis parvula, looks gorgeous, medium growth. Doesn't need high light. 
Marsilea minuta- tolerates low light, slow to med- growth 
HC - Beautiful, but medium growth unless I get some new lights. I have these in my 15 gallon NPT but growth is medium. Plus I have a little bit of yellow on the leaves, which is a sign of iron defiency. What should the light be for this specie. 
E. Tenellus- Scared to try this specie, haven't had much luck in the past. Plus Wiedertäufer said that it grows up to 6 inches! 
LILAEOPSIS- needs at least 3 WPG, medium growth, stays low. sounds good

welll still deciding, but I'll see what I can get. 





I'm going to be doing this in a 20, or a 29 gallon tank. Will update when I get started.


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## Wiedertäufer

Revernance said:


> Wiedertäufer - I'm considering Cutter's cichlid or a pair of Bolivian rams for this project. I love the colors of the bolivian rams!


Despite how cool I find the Cutter's Cichlids, I'd probably go with the rams if I were to set up again. The colours are what do it for me. As well, their smaller size would probably make them better suited to a 20 gallon tank.


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## flagg

Wiedertäufer said:


> My water is currently quite hard. ... [edited to shorten] KH 8 and GH 15.


I was just re-reading this thread and thinking that your water is not "quite hard" at all. Hell, I wish I had water as soft as yours! My KH is 35 and GH... well, let's just say I got tired of counting the drops before the water in the test tube changed color, so I don't really know! And no, there is nothing wrong with my test kits. I was only verifying the report that I received from the professional water analysis I had done of my well water. Unfortunately, this means that I had to have a water softener installed, which had created some problems until I realized that the softener can be bypassed. Now I just have to get the 2 x 10s to sister to the floor joists so I can set up the 125....

-ricardo


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## AaronT

I've grown Eleocharis parvulus, HC and Glosso quite well in an El Natural tank. I would think an El Natural Iwagumi style tank should be very feasible.


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## modster

AaronT said:


> I've grown Eleocharis parvulus, HC and Glosso quite well in an El Natural tank. I would think an El Natural Iwagumi style tank should be very feasible.


how much light do you have for HC to grow? It would be nice if you can tell me the complete setup


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## Esteroali

I have LILAEOPSIS BRASILIENSIS in my 20G soil substrate NPT. I bought it for my 10 lower tech tank and had extra so I threw it literally in the NPT. The stuff I planted in the 20 G is doing awesome and the extra that I did not have time to plant is still floating around on top quite healthy and it as been a month. The Lila in the 10G with Eco is struggling.


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## AaronT

modster said:


> how much light do you have for HC to grow? It would be nice if you can tell me the complete setup


All of those will grow in medium lighting. It's hard to quantify exactly what medium lighting is, but I'll say about 2 wpg as a general rule.

I do inject CO2 in my soil tanks, but other than that there's not really any dosing involved. I did a whole write-up on the method I use if you search for a thread titled "El Natural With A Twist".


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## flagg

AaronT said:


> All of those will grow in medium lighting. It's hard to quantify exactly what medium lighting is, but I'll say about 2 wpg as a general rule.
> 
> I do inject CO2 in my soil tanks, but other than that there's not really any dosing involved. I did a whole write-up on the method I use if you search for a thread titled "El Natural With A Twist".


You know, I remember that thread. I remember wondering if you were going to have algae problems what with adding the clay, which you did, but only temporarily if I remember... I know i keep saying this, but once again, here is a testament to the fact that setting up an NPT tank can proceed in various ways. Me, I'm a purist and that works for me. But I have to say that the more I read about different people's experiences with different types of setups the more I want to experiment myself! It's a shame that buying a new house is sucking all the money that could be going to a multitude of tanks!

-ricardo


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## AaronT

flagg said:


> You know, I remember that thread. I remember wondering if you were going to have algae problems what with adding the clay, which you did, but only temporarily if I remember... I know i keep saying this, but once again, here is a testament to the fact that setting up an NPT tank can proceed in various ways. Me, I'm a purist and that works for me. But I have to say that the more I read about different people's experiences with different types of setups the more I want to experiment myself! It's a shame that buying a new house is sucking all the money that could be going to a multitude of tanks!
> 
> -ricardo


I found a way to keep the initial algae problems very minimal. I've started screening the soil to remove any sticks, leaves, stones etc...

I setup this tank using the same method, only I screened the soil. I had none of the green hair algae as before and only had green water for 2 days.


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## littleguy

Sweet tank Aaron! Sorry to thread-jack but do you have a link that describes it?


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## Hubert

Any update on this tank please?


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