# I Need Help - I'm New To This



## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

I'll try to include all the information that I can here in this post. Right now I only have a 10 gallon guppy tank with plain regular gravel in it. I'm planning to start up a 40 gallon breeder size tank soon but I need to get this tank right and then I'll have a better idea of what to do with the 40.

I've modified the stock hood to hold two lights instead of just one. They are both 18" 15w lights and I believe the K rating on them both to be 9000K. But I actually think that is lower and I believe it leans more toward 6700K or so. I bought one of the cheap Jungle CO2 systems from my local PetCo and I've been using 1 tablet per week after every water change. The water changes are about 2 gallons a week. I have put API Root Tabs into my gravel to try to help my problem. I was using FluroPride before which wasn't doing a whole lot. 

I'm not sure of the names of all the plants I had or have now. I had Hornswort and it died off. I have Colombia or something like that and it seems to be ok right now. Amazon Sword is the next on the list that seems to be having trouble. It has runners and new growth but the main plants seem to be doing terrible. The leaves are starting to yellow and die off. I have a few other plants but I have no idea what they are because there was no name on the when I purchased them. 

The lights run for about 10 hours a day. I have about 30 fish in this tank and they are fed two to three times a day, only what they'll eat in about 5 minutes or so. The water temp is around 76F. 

What would be the best thing I could do to help these plants to grow? I'm not up on the terminology used here yet, so please keep it plain so I can understand it. I don't want to change my gravel right now but a suggestion for my new tank would be great. It just has to be black and I prefer sand...I think SeaChem has a sand that'll work. Any help and input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin


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## grim (Mar 13, 2008)

have you been doing any water tests because ph nitrites and nitrates could be way to high for the plants


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

It sounds like you are just starving the plants. They need nitrates, phosphates, potassium and trace elements, and with that much light you could use Seachem Flourish Excel to provide carbon.

Feeding the size fish that will fit in a 10 gallon tank 2 or 3 times a day is far too much feeding, and could foul the water. Once a day is enough, and even skipping a day now and then is no problem.

Black Flourite Sand is now available and is a very nice material to work with as a substrate. I have it in a 10 gallon tank, with no problems that I can see.

I suggest you get rid of the Amazon Sword plant. It will grow very rapidly to be far, far too big for that tank. Go to the buy and sell forum here and get some stem plants instead - some rotala, ludwigia, hygrophila, etc. Those can all be pruned to keep them fitting in a ten gallon tank.


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Ok. The Sword isn't that large and isn't growing that large either. The first plant that sprouted off the runner is just about gone. The main plant is only as big as the palm of your hand. But I see what you're saying about that.

The ammonia and nitrIte are both at 0ppm according the API test kit I have, it uses tubes. The nitrAte was at about .50ppm before I started back doing water changes. I missed a few weeks worth and that is when I noticed the nitrAte going up. The PH is about 7.6 or so. I figured the plants were sucking everything out of the water and that is why everything on the test kit was showing so low. 

I read that plants take in O2 at night...so I was running an airstone at night to help the fish. Don't know if that was wrong or not...but I only did that for about 1 week and stopped. I alternate the lighting...I turn one on in the morning when I get up, around 6 or so. Then at lunch my wife turns the other on, which is around 12 or so. At this point both lights are on. Then when I get home later in the day...usually after 4 or sometimes 5...I turn off one of the lights and leave just one on until 10 or 11 at night. So I guess 10 hours is over-shot...sorry. But that time frame isn't both lights on full blast all the time. And like I said most of these plants will make way into my 40 once I get it going. 

But I will look into the "For Sale" section and see what I can get. But it'll probably be after I move to avoid confusion with USPS or UPS. 

So what now?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Your plants are probably getting plenty of nitrogen and phosphate from the wastes of the fish, but they may be lacking potassium and iron. Fish food has very little potassium and iron in it. I would try some source of chelated (solubilized) iron and a fertilizer made for aquariums that has a lot of potassium in it. If your water is soft, you may have to add some calcium and magnesium also. 

The uptake of oxygen by plants is very small, compared to the uptake of fish. Usually you don't have to worry about it.


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

What do I need to be able to find out what I actually need to add to my water for my plants? I put those root tabs in and I still have plants that are trying to die. Leaves are falling off and some are turning brown and transparent. Plants that had beautiful white roots when planted...are now turning dark and ugly. 

It seems that I'm just not suppose to have live plants. My fish seem to be better with them and my tank looks better even though I just put them here and there...I'm not scaper. But I just don't seem to have any luck with my plants and it's driving me crazy.

What am I doing wrong?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I think it will help you a lot to read Rex Griggs great website, http://www.rexgrigg.com/, where you may quickly discover what you are doing wrong. Then you can ask questions about the parts that are still unclear. For sure, you can grow aquatic plants as well as any of us do, once you learn some of the basics, something all of us had to do.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I agree with what Hoppy said. Even if you are feeding your fish that much your plants are needing more nutrition. The root tabs for plants that have a good established root system. For the other plants like your "columbia", (probably cabomba) you need to have nutrition in the water. There are lots of ways to get fertilizers in the water, but you have to be consistent. You can't forget because the plants will continue to grow or die just like your fish. I think if you just begin with a general basic fertilizer that will help a lot. You may need other things but at least you will stop the dieing and just end up with maybe some plant deficiencies showing up.

You can take a look at the fertilizing section on here. ALSO Here is a good article for beginners:
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/index.html


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

"columbia", (probably cabomba) 

Ha-ha...yeah I really fugged that one up huh? You're right, cabomba. Whatever happens to what I have right now is just gonna happen. Seems like I've read that page before and thought I was somewhat on track with it.

My 40 gallon breeder tank is what I'm going to focus on. I'm going to buy the right substrate the first time, this time. I guess I need to find a good CO2 system also, I guess the one I've got now isn't the best in the world. I was told I didn't need CO2 but I guess I do afterall. Guess also the root tabs was a waste of time and money also. I guess the flourish excel is what I should have bought.

One thing for sure, for me, is that this has turned out harder than I thought.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Sterling, root tabs are good. Especially if you have an inert substrate like gravel. I had gravel for years and I used root tabs. (I did have flourite mixed with my gravel for an iron source.) I had low light. I used low light plants. I would change water about 2xs a month. My water had a lot of phosphates in it and I had an overstocked tank. Between my hard water with phosphates, overstocked tank, (fish wastes and feedings 3xs a day) I hardly ever added any extra fertilizers.

Flourish excell is a carbon source, which is what CO2 is for. There is some general Flourish fertilizer, and also a complete line of different macro fertilizers made by flourish. A lot of people on the forum here use dry fertilizers. They are about the cheapest way to go. You can get them from RexGrigg.com. Greg Watson used to sell dry ferts, but someone took that over for him. Maybe someone else could tell you who does it for him. When I was out of ferts and waiting for mine to come I got some "pond" fertilizer which had nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus in it. I followed the bottle directions not quite full strength. (I have a 125G) It worked fine. I needed a cheap source of ferts since I had a big tank.

I do DIY CO2 on my 29g and 10g. It works fine. I alternate 2 bottles for the 29G. Niko had a thread where he made a cheap but very effective CO2 diffuser. I think he said he has used it up to a 55g tank. It would be a cheap way to get CO2 to your breeder tank. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/do-yourself-aquarium-projects/44053-tiny-super-efficient-co2-reactor.html


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Well it seems since I put the root tablets in that everything is really starting to die. The CO2 system I have is the one that uses those fizzy tabs you put into that little jar and the chamber goes into the tank. I'm only doing it once a week and I have no idea if that is enough or not. And don't know how to find out either...that is the bad part.

I kinda figured by now that I'd have it figured out and they'd be doing good. I was hoping so anyway cause I wanted to be able to successfully plant my 40g breeder tank and have it do well. I spend more time putting a net up over my intake tube for my filter and then pulling it out of the pump. Catching all that dead plant matter and then cleaning out my filter. I'm going through a pile of filters cause they get so gunked up with plant parts...it's getting on my nerves. 

I need to find out what to buy this time so I can have my 40g close to being right for plants. I'm planning on the seachem substrate that is sand-like. I've got an over-kill light setup and I just need to figure out what else I need to have to make plants grow and do well. 

This isn't a hobby anymore...it's a second job.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

If you have high light then you probably do need CO2. CO2 is supposed to be kept at 20-30 ppm when it's there is light for the plants to grow. You will know your CO2 levels when you get a CO2 drop checker and 4dkh solution. You can search on this forum for those terms and I think there is a sticky about it. Once a week is not enough. Another way to supply carbon is Excell as was mentioned. You would have to add that every day as it has a 24 hour life. 

With high light you will also need to fertilize or your starve your plants. Just because your plants are still dieing doesn't mean it's the fert tabs. They take time to dissolve and if buried they might not even be able to practically get into the water column. Hence the need to fertilize into the water.

You can either cut down your light, get low light plants, and use excell OR up the anti and do the CO2 (or lots of excel), and fertilize. Once you get things balanced it really will seem like a hobby again. You are just in the BIG learning curve right now. I felt like you do when I first started to learn this. I wondered if I would ever get it right. IF you persevere you'll get there.


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Well I believe it was said here that the fert sticks like that Jobes makes is a no-no for aquariums. I believe something about it causing algae or something? But what if I dissolved like half a stick in some water and added it to my tank?

I live in BFE. We don't have a LFS around here and the only two places that even carry a very small amount of fish DON'T have anything for live plants. So that puts me driving 50 miles or better to get something and then that is really limited cause it's only Petco or PetSmart. So that leaves me with internet ordering which takes time and I'm wanting to try to save the last few I have if possible.

So you're saying do the CO2 everyday? Or you're saying that the lights and CO2 aren't gonna cut it unless I put liquid fert into the water? I'm sure once I figure it out also that it'll go back to being a hobby. I won't give up that easily, that's for sure.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You need to balance everything. Light + nutrients + CO2 = healthy plants. If you raise one you have to raise the other 2. You have high light but low others. That will make your plants try to grow and then they starve. You need to keep this balanced when the plants grow - when the light cycle is happening, (light is on). 

I think you need liquid fertilizer because the stem plants take in the nutrients from the water column. Stem plants usually don't even come with roots. I have read about people using Jobes sticks. I have read they used them successfully. I haven't so I can't tell you about them. I didn't read about them causing algae. I can't imagine that it's whether it's dissolved or not as to it causing algae. Algae usually happens when there is more light and nutrients than plant growth. If you have decent plant growth they will use the nutrients and the algae can't compete so it dies. CO2 will help plants grow quickly so they can take up the nutrients and out compete the algae. It's all about that balance again.

Ordering online is pretty fast. You probably would have had them by now if you had ordered when you began this thread. I got my pond fertilizer at Walmart, or Petsmart. I used it until I got my dry ferts from Rex Grigg.


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## lauraleellbp (Jan 31, 2008)

From what others have told me, Jobes were not developed for aquatic use, and contain urea/ammonium, so can cause issues if exposed directly to the water column. If pushed deep enough in the substrate and not exposed to the main tank water though (no re-scaping once they're in), they're supposed to be very good?

x3 on go to RexGrigg site and do some reading- balance is what is needed in your current setup and why your plants are not doing well.

GL!


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Ok here is what I've done today, so let me know what you think.

I removed all my fish first by siphoning some of the water out of the tank into a small bucket with an airstone inside. I then drained my tank and removed the mixed up gravel I had in it. It was plain ole gravel from Wal-Mart and a LFS...two different types...one with two different colored rock. It was black up until I started using a gravel vac and then the purple colored junk started showing..yuk.

I removed all that and washed my tank out. I bought 20lbs of Eco-Complete today from a LFS in a town about 30 or so miles away. I also bought a bottle of Flourish. Pretty much that was all they had so I had to make due with it until I could check in here.

I first dumped the whole bag into my 10 gallon tank. Then I added fresh tap water with Start Right added to it, I know some don't like it and like to use Prime. I let the tank sit for awhile, letting the heater warm the water back up to the regular tank temp. Once it was back into the 70's I began adding my live plants back into the tank. I first put that CO2 thing back into the tank, the one you buy that is made by Jungle I believe. While the tank was warming I put one of those fizzy tabs into the CO2 bottle and let it fill that chamber, which allowed it to slowly dissolve into the water while it was warming up. I then put 1ml of the Flourish into the tank. 

Once the tank had cleared and the water temp was back at 76 degrees...I began putting my fish back into my tank. I'm aware that a cycle will probably happen again...but the guy at the LFS said it would cycle in 3 days. I'm not sure. I personally believe that between that substrate and the live plants that a cycle will be very small if it even happens at all. I didn't change my filter material or anything. Which brings me to my first question...do I need to remove the carbon from the filter system?

If you remove the carbon...what's gonna keep the water crystal clear? Should I buy something else to filter the water through with carbon in it and if so...how often should I run it? Next, what else should I buy to keep adding to my water for my plants and how often should I do it? How often should I put one of those fizzy tabs into the reactor thing for CO2 to enter the tank? 

This is a 10 gallon tank with 3 watts of light per gallon of water. Two of the plant lights from Wal-Mart that I believe the K rating to be 9936 or something close to that. The filter system is a Whisper HOB unit with the bio-bag and that sponge thing in it for the biological filter to build into.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

If your carbon filter has been in there for weeks it is probably ok and will not filter out your nutrients. I don't think I believe your LFS guy about a 3 day cycle. Your plants (if they will grow) and your dirty medium should help the cycle to happen quickly. Keep a close eye on your ammonia, nitrite. Test tehm daily. You may need to keep changing water and adding Prime. You need a pretty heavily planted tank to keep the water from cycling. I just changed over my 125g, seasoned my ADA AquaSoil for 6 weeks, kept filter medium in both my filters and still changed water a lot. I lost no fish but was very vigilant. I tested a lot and put Purigen and Amino Chips in my filters.

Again - the only way to know if you have enough CO2 is a drop checker. See this thread- Orlando sells them http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/49083-co2-drop-checker.html You can also get them on Ebay and many other sources. It's the only way to know if you have enough. The charts out there that measure by pH and KH aren't reliable as there are many other soluable solids in your water that would interfere with the calculations.

Got this from the net: Flourish™ is a comprehensive plant supplement for the natural freshwater aquarium. It contains a rich assortment of important micro elements, trace elements and other nutrients. These include calcium, magnesium, iron and other important elements that have been shown to be beneficial to aquatic plants. _For macro element (NPK) fertilization, use Flourish Nitrogen™, Flourish Phosphorus™ or Flourish Potassium™ as needed._

So... you got half the puzzle. You will need the MACRO nutrients. Eco complete is supposed to supply a lot of nutrients. I haven't every used it. I'm sure others here will be able to tell you how it impacts on your fertilization schedule.


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Nope it's only been in the filter for a few days actually. I guess I need to remove it then huh?


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The activated carbon in the filter wont do any harm, and might have enough nitrifying bacteria growing on it to help with the cycling. I would leave it there. The filtering media that actually keeps the water "crystal clear" is the filter floss or equivalent.


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Ok. Well about 1 day has passed now. If I had to guess at the number of fish in my tank, I'd say there is probably 35. I noticed this afternoon that every fish in the tank is up at the surface and the only ones at the bottom are my albino cats and my 3 frogs.

So the first thing that came to mind was the condition of the water. Ammonia actually is what I was thinking about but when I tested the major 3 everything came back at 0ppm. I know that with a 0ppm on nitrate, there hasn't been a cycle...or that's what I'm thinking any way.

I can't figure out why everybody is up at the surface with all the test showing so good. A few keep going down to the bottom and just hanging around but most everybody is at the surface. Hopefully I have enough plants to help soften the cycle effects.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You may have a bit too much CO2 in the water. Even DIY CO2 can produce too much for a 10 gallon tank. I would expect about one bubble per second of CO2 would be the limit for that size tank.


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

Well with the kit I got at PetSmart that is made by Jungle...you can't adjust the bubble per second or anything for that matter of speaking. It's the one with the container that you put the fizzy tab into with water and it's got the airline that goes to a chamber that is upside down in the tank. It forces the water out and fills with CO2 and then you have to wait for it to dissolve into the tank water.

So what you're saying is I could build/buy a bubble counter and still keep this system? Basically the system is designed to work like others it just looks different than some of the more expensive ones? So I need a bubble counter...but it would be hard to use one with this setup cause if you tried to slow the flow...it'll blow the lid off the container. So thinking of that, I need a better system that you can control better...hmmm. Which in that case I guess I could use a smaller bell instead of that large box that I have now...hmmm. Am I going in the right direction or not here?

I put an airstone into the tank and they are now coming down from the surface, so yeah probably too much CO2 at one time. I guess daily isn't the schedule I need to be on. So now I guess I need a way to measure the CO2 in the water which if I recall that is called a drop checker...right? And now I need to figure out how much fert to dose and how often. And I'm still curious about the carbon in my filter...won't that remove my ferts?


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## Sterling919 (Jan 19, 2008)

I was just reading another thread about lights...I got a question about mine as well.

Is two 15 watt lights enough for my tank? Or do I need something more? How can you overdrive a hood to make the lights brighter?


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