# What Deficiency???? (With Pictures) - *56K Warning*



## genetao (May 10, 2008)

For a few months now, I've been pulling my hair out trying to figure out exactly what deficiency (or deficiencies) I'm encountering. I'm following Tom Barr's Estimative Index dosing regiment, and still can't seem to figure out what nutrient I'm missing.

I set up the tank about 7 months ago. For the first few months, the tank was looking really good. During the whole time, I was dosing EI regularly at 3 times a week. After the few months, I've began to see a decline in the growth and health of the plants even with the EI method. (I'm sure the substrate is starting to give out)

STATS

Size: 10 Gallon Tank
Substrate: Eco-Complete
Lighting: 30 watts T8 NO lighting (2x 15 watt)
CO2: 25-30 PPM (60 bubbles per minute)

WATER PARAMETERS

I mix 2 parts Reverse Osmosis, 1 part dechlorinated tap (to yield sufficient Calcium and Magnesium)
Nitrates: 15 - 25 PPM
Phosphates: 2 - 3.5 PPM
Potassium: ??? (No test kit) But I dose 1/4 tsp. of K2SO4 5 or 6 times a week
Trace: ??? (No test kit) But I dose 1/16th tsp. of CSM+B 5 or 6 times a week
Magnesium: ???? (No test kit, but my KH is above 4 which should be sufficient for Mg, right?)
Calcium: 1000 PPM or more (Yeah I know that's an awful lot. I live in the Bay Area where we have liquid rock even with 1 part tap and 2 parts RO)
GH: 10 dKH or 179 PPM
KH: 6 dKH or 107 PPM
At the end of the week, I do a 50% water change
I purchased all of the ferts from aquariumfertilizer.com

DEFICIENCIES

I see pinholes in the older leaves, which would suggest a potassium deficiency, right? So that's why I've been over dosing K, dosing 5 or 6 times a week, and not just the recommended three times a week. I've been doing this for weeks, and yet I still see the pinholes.

I'm seeing melt and dying off of leaves in a lot of the different plants, whether it's the older leaves on the Red Ludwigia, or the new leaves on the Java Fern.

The plants in general do not look healthy. I've got algae growing on the crypt wendtii leaves. The Blyxa Japonica is also melting, and looking long and scraggly. Even the Hemianthus micranthemoides show pinholes and dying off in the older leaves. And yet I continue to overdose K2SO4 almost daily hoping for a change for the better.

I've read until my eyes have bled. I've done everything I possibly can to do right for my plants. I'm frustrated to no end. Can some one please help me figure out what it is I'm doing wrong? I'm hoping for a well experienced planted aquarist's advice to help me turn this from a torment to an enjoyable hobby again.

Red Ludwigia with normal healthy leaf on right side for comparison



























Notice the severe pinholes in the java fern leaf in the foreground






















































Notice the warping / ruffling


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## NeonFlux (May 15, 2008)

Looks like you have severe case of potassium deficiency I believe.. 



**EDIT**

Oh yeah, it also be nitrate deficiency too.

What are your parameters?


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## DJKronik57 (Apr 17, 2006)

Do you dose anything for nitrates? KNO3?

That's an awful lot of potassium for a 10 gallon tank. I know I was dosing about that much in a 46 gallon and ended up getting Mg/Ca deficiencies due to K overdose. You might be making the problem worse by dosing that much, especially if it wasn't the issue in the first place.

Has it gotten worse or better since you upped the K dosing?


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## genetao (May 10, 2008)

NeonFlux - It sure does look like a severe potassium deficiency, doesn't it? That's why I've been double and triple dosing the recommended amount for the past several weeks, and still get symptoms of potassium deficiency. 

It's not a nitrate deficiency, at least not according to my water test kit. Nitrates at are about 15 - 25 PPM. If you scroll to the top, you will see all of my water parameters.


DJKronik57 - I do does some KNO3, but not a whole lot. I have it heavily over stocked right now and my nitrates never get below 10 PPM, even after a 50% water change. That's why I dose K2SO4. I don't think I have a calcium deficiency because I tested the calcium, and it's at 1000 PPM or more! It could however be a magnesium deficiency. But with my water so hard, I wouldn't think it be that. 

I know that's a heck of a lot of potassium to dose, but if you saw the leaves with lots of pinholes, what would you be doing differently? Please do edu-macate me. I could surely use the help.

I think the plants have done somewhat better with the additional potassium. But the plants don't look quite as good as they first did, and I still some some pinholes and algae growing on some of the leaves.

My guess is that there is a deficiency somewhere which is preventing the plants from uptaking anymore of the nutrients that are abundant. 

Anyone else with thoughts?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I think the symptoms could be the result of some kind of toxicity, rather than a deficiency.


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## HolyAngel (Nov 3, 2010)

The holes almost look like something eating the leaves, like snails. The end of that ragged leaf is what leads me to that conclusion.

Other than that, its obviously not a potassium deficiency If your dosing that much.. Are you still dosing CSM+b or something equivalent to it for your micros?


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## genetao (May 10, 2008)

HeyPK - That is very intriguing idea. But I tend to think that it's a deficiency rather than a toxicity. That's because the plants were doing well for the first four or so months in the eco-complete. After a while though, the plants slowly started to degrade in in health. 

I have a low light low-tech pico tank that's been setup for the past several months, and the plants in it look fine. But that's something I never thought of before. I use 2 parts RO to 1 part dechlorinated tap water.

Holy Angel - I suppose it could be snails because there are a few pond snails in there. But I didn't think they'd chew up java fern. The leaves on the lower part of the red ludwigia are showing pinholes and dying off. 

I am over dosing CSM+b for my micros almost daily, in an effort to "pinpoint" the root cause. I keep the nitrates at around 20 PPM and phosphorus at around 2 PPM. Following the EI method, I figured I'd try to get plenty of N,P,K and micros, even if OD'ing on it. I'm really desperate to find an answer, and am willing to try anything. Honestly.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

I think you should try proper EI. For clarity, the idea isn't to dose to excess because a symptom points you towards a particular nutrient, but rather to dose the entire system (this includes CO2) so that you ensure no single nutrient is limiting. It is not EI to dose 100ppm K and assume the fish provide enough N and the test at 10ppm means something. 

(EI to troubleshoot would be something like: 

Do a water change. Then do another one.
Change the light bulbs to ensure they have not dimmed.
If you are already dosing N and P, dose them an additional day to start. If you are not, start with basic EI proportions.
Slowly increase CO2 during a period where you can observe the animals. Do not make large changes in one day; take your time.
Trim off the old damaged leaves. They will not repair themselves and you will measure progress via new growth and the color of those leaves as they age over the weeks you experiment. )

It's not K -- you've eliminated this already. There are folks who warn of S toxicity and your doses are higher than I recall ever seeing in folks's dosing, fwiw.

I've not seen that color in Java Fern (nor have grown much Java Fern). Is that normal? My first thought was H2O2 or Glut. overdose on those submerged pics.


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## goldier (Feb 13, 2010)

HeyPK said:


> I think the symptoms could be the result of some kind of toxicity, rather than a deficiency.


+1 for toxicity. It is uptake deficiency secondary to S toxicity from overdosing SO4, which is the root cause resulting in burnt foliage. For my densely planted 10g tank, I use the recommended amount of N, P, K from Chuck's calculator. EI's ranges may be similar. After a large water change 75% I dose 1gm K2SO4, which gives ~12ppm K, then add 10ppm NO3 from KNO3, which add a few more ppm for K, then fish food/waste would add some extra K. So my K level would be around 15-20ppm. Water change is done about once a month, although I am considering extending it to 3 months or longer. Every week, 5ppm NO3 (from KNO3) is added, so some K is added as well. No sign/symptom of K deficiency - the plants are growing well. BTW, 1gm K2SO4 = 0.17 teaspoon from Chuck's calculator.


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## MrBlackThumb (Aug 30, 2005)

Reset button. 100% water change. Then do whatever you usually with less amount until you see good growth . Less plant mass=less fertilizer. Small plant mass + a lot of fertilizer = a mess. Make sure CO2 is good too.


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## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

When you start seeing the clear leaves on the java fern, that is toxicity. Excess K2SO4 can caused leaves to melt.



> Trace: ??? (No test kit) But I dose 1/16th tsp. of CSM+B 5 or 6 times a week
> Magnesium: ???? (No test kit, but my KH is above 4 which should be sufficient for Mg, right?)
> Calcium: 1000 PPM or more (Yeah I know that's an awful lot. I live in the Bay Area where we have liquid rock even with 1 part tap and 2 parts RO)


kH is not Mg
gH is a combination of Ca and Mg. But this could be any ratio. Best to test Ca and determine if there is enough Mg in the water relative to Ca. 
Trace:

You have not told us what your pH level is at. Usually, in liquid rock situation and high kH, pH should be close if not above 7 pH especially with eco complete. Go with Flourish or DTPA chelated micro nutrients. EDTA chelated micro nutrients is a waste and just add to the problem.


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## genetao (May 10, 2008)

Sorry for the slow reply. Darn firewall at work prevents me from being able go to APC.

As some of you recommended (Goldier, Wet, Mr. Black Thumb, HeyPK, and Edge), as soon as I got home, I did a huge water change, like 90%. Then I did a fairly large trimming of leaves. Then dosed the EI method strictly by the book.

I'm hoping to see some improvement in the next week or so. I'll post back here tomorrow to respond to your questions and give an update. It's wayyyy past my bedtime now.

Thank you all for lending me a hand -_^


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## genetao (May 10, 2008)

Wet - I've done a rather large water change, and started dosing the EI method. I've been dosing using KNO3 for both N and K instead of K2SO4 so as the remove the possibility of sulphate excess. I think I'm starting to see signs of new growth again the 5 or so days since the huge water change.

Goldier - I think you are right about the SO4 toxicity build up. I was just dosing what I thought the plants were telling me they needed when they showed pin holes. I never knew that I when I was trying to do what I thought my plants needed, I was actually making it worse!

Mr Black Thumb - I think I got your beat. I've got two black thumbs. I've pretty much hit the reset button at 90% water change. And will do another 90% water change in another couple of days.CO2 according to KH and pH readings shows to be around 35 PPM.

Edge - Okay got it. Excess K2SO4 causes plants to melt. The only reason I dosed double the amount of K2SO4 again is because I thought there was some sort of potassium deficiency noted by the pinholes. I also double dosed on the CSM+B just to be sure that there would be no deficiency.

Here was my thinking: According to Rex Grigg's site, he states *"For dosing K2SO4 don't bother to mix a solution. Dose it dry. 1.5 grams or ¼ teaspoon of K2SO4 will dose 10 gallons of water to 17.72 ppm.*" So my dosing regiment is to dose P at 2ppm, and K at around 20ppm (1/4 tsp). and dose CSM+B originally at the recommended levels. (I only started double dosing CSM+B when I was suspected there was a deficiency, but was in fact a toxicity). I didn't dose N because even after a 50% water change, I still had 10PPM of Nitrate in the water. (I've temporarily overstocked my tank because I'm about to upgrade to a larger tank!!!)

I think by following all of your advice, I'm well on my way back to a healthy tank! I'll make sure to update in another week.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

OK this is a little late but here are some comments.

If your Calcium is really 1000 ppm you need to get this down. I’d only add 1 part city water to 30 parts RO. This will bring your Ca down to a reasonable 30 ppm. Since you don’t test for Mg, I’d add a small amount of Mg.
OK now here is the big deal! With source water that is reasonable, you need to follow the program exactly!
Since you are following EI, you need to follow it exactly! Diddling with K or anything else is sending you into the realm of a research project. The concept is that there are zillions of people following the plan who are successful and you are not. 
You need patience. You need at least two weeks to decide if a change really effects plant growth.
I’ve been growing plants for over two years and it is really easy. I fact, I throw away 33% of my plants each week! You need to follow the system exactly!


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

> I didn't dose N because even after a 50% water change, I still had 10PPM of Nitrate in the water. (I've temporarily overstocked my tank because I'm about to upgrade to a larger tank!!!)


If you have it, dose KNO3 anyway. Something like 5-7ppm every other day and continue your water change schedule. This is a schedule that's essentially common with all non-Walstad/Soil methods and safe for fish and inverts.

Troubleshooting or isolating nutrients with sick plants sucks, man. I think you should let them recover and get healthy first. (Feed the plants; increase moderately for the fish; do water changes.)


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## genetao (May 10, 2008)

Edge - my pH is around 7.2 at night when the CO2 is turned off. KH is around 7-8 also. GH is like 13 or 14 with 2 parts RO, 1 part tap.

Ray- Stick to the plan. Got it. Will do. But just out of curiousity, instead of throwing away your plants, why not just trade it in at your LFS for store credit? I do that all the time at mine. 

Wet - Okay I hear you, dose KNO3 even though there's a healthy amount of nitrates in the water already. Yeah I know having sick plants does suck. 

But for what it's worth, I'm starting to see them rebound again! Well everything except for the bylxa. That one looks like it's dying a slow death. We shall see. Now once I start getting healthy looking plants again, I can try and do something about the hair algae ;p


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

genetao said:


> Ray- Stick to the plan. Got it. Will do. But just out of curiousity, instead of throwing away your plants, why not just trade it in at your LFS for store credit? I do that all the time at mine.


When I do a major rework about 3-4 time a year I do have plants that I bring to my LFS. 
But each week I mow my tank to keep it under control. What do you do with lawn clippings?

Today I threw away at least twice the volume/weight of the plants that I originally purchased.

In two years of doing this plant thing my biggest problem has been success.

As I think I said before, a planted tank is like a lawn. You fertilize, water and when your crop comes in, you cut it down and throw it away.


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## genetao (May 10, 2008)

Hey gang,

It's been more than 2 weeks since my initial post, and I must say that you guys were right about the SO4 toxicity build up. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

I think this is where I started down the wrong path:

Reading Rex Grigg's site, he states "For dosing K2SO4 don't bother to mix a solution. Dose it dry. 1.5 grams or ¼ teaspoon of K2SO4 will dose 10 gallons of water to 17.72 ppm."

In addition, in the Estimative Dosing Index guide written by John N, he adds a little side note about K2SO4 "In true regards to EI, added excess K is not detrimental in any event. "

So being the dummy that I am, I put two and two together, and came up with the wickedly brilliant idea (not) of dosing 1/4 tsp of K2SO4 and maybe a little more just for good measure, never realizing that I'm also (over) dosing on Sulphate as well. I wanted to make sure that there wouldn't be any deficiencies, right? 

Well I did that for several months, and eventually started seeing some pinholes in leaves. So I thought that I needed to up the K2SO4. But the more I dosed, the more the plants got worse. 

Then I thought maybe I was chasing the wrong deficiency, so I dosed more CSM+B. I know somewhat that if I have a higher concentration of one fert, it may cause a deficiency in another. I was spinning my gears and getting no where, because the only thing that computed in my limited understanding was that I had a deficiency, and not a toxicity issue. 

Now they say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and in this case that was absolutely the case! I didn't understand that in certain cases, you can have too much of a good thing. It’s obvious that I didn’t fully understand what Rex and John wrote in their articles, because if I did, I’d never be in this mess. 

Needless to say, the plants are looking great again. I’ve trimmed the dying / ragged leaves, reset the tank, and dosed accordingly. The plants are flourishing again! I’ve even had to majorly trim the Ludwigia Repens because it was growing almost as fast as Elodea does! The Blyxa Japonica is making a strong comeback and flowering again.

Thank you all for helping me!

Now I can get going on my ADA 60-P I got for Christmas!!!!! ^_^


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