# Ironing out my Ferts.



## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

*Need Help With My Ferts.*

Ok, I think I have a few issues with my 75g planted tank that I am confident that will be resolved in this forum. I have a tiger lotus and some other lotus, not sure of it but the leaves are longer and redder then the tiger lotus, however I have always kept them trimmed low so they weren't too over bearing and they were growing healthy. Then I let them go because I want to put them in the pond. Well as they became huge they started to have as to what I believe to be is a potassium deficiency by pin holes starting and just totally melting. My weekly regiment hadn't changed at all, I believe that in their massive state they were being potassium hogs but my N level doesn't seem to drop, it would stay at 20ppm through out the week. Then there is the Ca/Mg ratios? Here are my values and weekly regime and I hope that you guys can help me get things straight. Oh ya, did I mention I was battling BBA since last october as well. I thought that I was at an intermediate level but now I am not so sure, just a little confused now with my dosing.

75g

flourite substrate(50/50)
3.5 wpg (6700k) @12 hours
C02 injected via pinpoint Ph controller

Values

Tank .............................Tap

Ph-6.6..........................7.4
Gh-280mg/l....................100mg/l
Kh-80mg/l(4.5dKh)..........70mg/l(3.9dKh)
N03-20ppm....................0.0
Fe-0.1mg/l.....................0.0
P04-2.5mg/l...................0.0
Ca-100mg/l....................40mg/l
Mg-7mg/l(calculated).......0.0
C02-34ppm....................5ppm

50% WWC
KN03...........1.75 tsp @ wwc
K2S04...........1.0 tsp @ wwc
MgS04...........3.0 tsp @ wwc
CaCl2.............4.0tsp @wwc
fleet............12 drops daily
TE..................2 ml daily

Thanks in advance,

Terry.

This isn't the most recent pic, I will update it asap.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I would tend to say it's a CO2 deficiency issue, especially since you mention battling BBA. BBA is usually a sign of low CO2.

Forget about the CO2/KH/pH charts. Take some of your tank water and let it sit out for 24-48 hours and measure the pH as accurately as you can. You want to be injecting enough CO2 into your tank to get the pH one point lower than that measurement (eg from 7.5 to 6.5). This is equivalent to about 30mg/l of CO2. The problem many people have with the charts is that there are many things that impact KH that throw the charts way off, usually ending up with a lot less CO2 than we think.

I would also spread out your KNO3 dosing over the week.

What TE are you using?


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## yildirim (Nov 25, 2004)

In the past I had these plants too and as they grow huge in a short time I later throw them out. When the leaves reach to the surface they got so large that the weaker points of the leaves got torn or developed holes but this was not because of a defficiency in my case as I dose a lot. I think it is normal for some overseized leeaves floating on the surface. Also sometimes the parts of the leaves getting out of the water develops the same distort because of drying out.


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

Laith said:


> I would tend to say it's a CO2 deficiency issue, especially since you mention battling BBA. BBA is usually a sign of low CO2.
> 
> Forget about the CO2/KH/pH charts. Take some of your tank water and let it sit out for 24-48 hours and measure the pH as accurately as you can. You want to be injecting enough CO2 into your tank to get the pH one point lower than that measurement (eg from 7.5 to 6.5). This is equivalent to about 30mg/l of CO2. The problem many people have with the charts is that there are many things that impact KH that throw the charts way off, usually ending up with a lot less CO2 than we think.
> 
> ...


Ok I will test my C02 differently. At one point I had my ph down to 6.5 and was dosing 50ml/day of flourish excel for 8 days and did nothing against the BBA.

I am using homegrown hydroponics pmdd, they are cheap and local. I mix 2tsp/500ml water and dose 2ml/day to give me 0.1mg/l of Fe. I'm not sure what it is in the fertilator but here is the link.
http://www.hydroponics.com/info/aquatics/pmdd.htm

Thank you for your imput.

Terry


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

yildirim said:


> In the past I had these plants too and as they grow huge in a short time I later throw them out. When the leaves reach to the surface they got so large that the weaker points of the leaves got torn or developed holes but this was not because of a defficiency in my case as I dose a lot. I think it is normal for some overseized leeaves floating on the surface. Also sometimes the parts of the leaves getting out of the water develops the same distort because of drying out.


Now that you mention it, it's been a few years now since I had lillys in the pond but the leaves did die off.........however in my tank they would start to melt before they reached the top and weren't always mature leaves.
The tiger lotus is in the pond right now but the other one has a bud that just surfaced, I want to enjoy it before I transplant it to the pond.

Thanks,

Terry.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

Laith said:


> I would tend to say it's a CO2 deficiency issue, especially since you mention battling BBA. BBA is usually a sign of low CO2.
> 
> Forget about the CO2/KH/pH charts. Take some of your tank water and let it sit out for 24-48 hours and measure the pH as accurately as you can. You want to be injecting enough CO2 into your tank to get the pH one point lower than that measurement (eg from 7.5 to 6.5). This is equivalent to about 30mg/l of CO2. The problem many people have with the charts is that there are many things that impact KH that throw the charts way off, usually ending up with a lot less CO2 than we think.
> 
> ...


Really? I wonder why people like Amano only kept 15 ppm of CO2 and never got BBA.


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

banderbe said:


> Really? I wonder why people like Amano only kept 15 ppm of CO2 and never got BBA.


Banderbe, first of all cranking the C02 usually is a remedy that a lot of people would first suggest when the first signs of algae appears. Secondly Banderbe, you are already getting annoying. I am new to this site and I have been biting my tongue with all your pointless and sarcastic interjections with my postings but you have pushed my limits. You come off like a big shot know it all so If you don't have anything positive to say then keep it to yourself. Do us all a favour and take some lessons in manners and graciousness.

Terry.


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

I have been dosing 4tsp CaCl2 @ wwc which on its own is around 25mg/l of Ca plus the 40mg/l Ca from the tap, built up together is giving me 100mg/l Ca, is that correct?

The reason I had been dosing so much CaCl2 is because way back I was having problems with the new leaves curling on my alternanthera reineckii. I since abandoned it but maintained the Ca level. Would that much cloride hurt the fish at all?

Is this thought process correct, by rights I shouldn't be dosing CaCl2 at all because my Ca level is ok @ 40mg/l and with that I should be dosing not 3 but 2.5 tsp of MgS04 to give me 4.85mg/l of Mg?

Thanks,

Terry.


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

Laith said:


> I would tend to say it's a CO2 deficiency issue, especially since you mention battling BBA. BBA is usually a sign of low CO2.
> 
> Forget about the CO2/KH/pH charts. Take some of your tank water and let it sit out for 24-48 hours and measure the pH as accurately as you can. You want to be injecting enough CO2 into your tank to get the pH one point lower than that measurement (eg from 7.5 to 6.5). This is equivalent to about 30mg/l of CO2. The problem many people have with the charts is that there are many things that impact KH that throw the charts way off, usually ending up with a lot less CO2 than we think.
> 
> ...


Ok, I measured my Ph at 6.6 and let thewater sit for 24 hrs, them remeasured and my Ph was 7.6. I remeasured in 48 hrs and it remained at 7.6. How according to the new C02 chart I have a drop of one, so I guess my C02 level is 30ppm is that correct in assuming so?

Thanks,

Terry.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

In that case, your CO2 level seem to be ok so that rules that out. Lighting and CO2 seem to ok. Now to the macros:

I'm a bit wary of your reading of 20mg/l of NO3 throughout the week. I think your test kit may be playing up? You're adding around 26mg/l of NO3 (based on 60g actual volume) in one go at water change. This should decrease over the week and you could actually be getting to very low NO3 levels by the end of the week. Hence my recommendation to spread out the NO3 dosing, maybe to 3x a week (I actually dose about 4mg/l every day but using an autodoser).

You are increasing your GH from just over 5 degrees (100mg/l) to over 15 degrees (280mg/l) by the addition of CaCl2 and MgSO4. There is no need to add so much and in any case you're ending up with 14x more Ca than Mg. Try to bring that down to around 4x by stopping the addition of CaCl2 and adding enough MgSO4 to get your Mg level up to 10mg/l. That'll bring your total GH up to just under 8 degrees which is fine and should provide enough Ca and Mg.

The other factor that could be causing problems is 3.5wpg for 12 hours a day. In my experience 12 hours a day is the upper limit of lighting period length. Try lowering that to 10 hours a day and see if that helps.

And a pic of the problem plant(s) and algae would help.


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

Laith said:


> In that case, your CO2 level seem to be ok so that rules that out. Lighting and CO2 seem to ok. Now to the macros:
> 
> I'm a bit wary of your reading of 20mg/l of NO3 throughout the week. I think your test kit may be playing up? You're adding around 26mg/l of NO3 (based on 60g actual volume) in one go at water change. This should decrease over the week and you could actually be getting to very low NO3 levels by the end of the week. Hence my recommendation to spread out the NO3 dosing, maybe to 3x a week (I actually dose about 4mg/l every day but using an autodoser).
> 
> ...


Ok, I have lowered my lighting time from 12hrs to 10hrs.
I am trying to understand things here, with erasing CaCl2 from the equation, I need to get a ratio of 4:1 (Ca:Mg), I need to increase my MgS04 to 10mg/l(@5.125tsp based on 65g) and that will increase my Gh from 5 to 8degrees? I don;t understand how MgS04 will increase the Gh, is it the Mg or the S04? I will do my wwc tomorrow and make the changes. I will try to get the new pics posted soon.

Thank you for your help, I appreciate it a lot.

Terry.


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## IceH2O (Mar 8, 2006)

imhandy2 said:


> I have been dosing 4tsp CaCl2 @ wwc which on its own is around 25mg/l of Ca plus the 40mg/l Ca from the tap, built up together is giving me 100mg/l Ca, is that correct?
> 
> The reason I had been dosing so much CaCl2 is because way back I was having problems with the new leaves curling on my alternanthera reineckii. I since abandoned it but maintained the Ca level. Would that much cloride hurt the fish at all?
> 
> ...


In another forum I'm in we've been discussing CL2 in the tank. It seems that when people switch from CaCL2 to CaSO4 they're getting better growth and still getting the Ca they need.

Theres an article that talks about how CL2 is bad for plants.

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/uwexlakes/laketides/vol31-1/Text-only.htm

scroll down to Hold the Salt


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

imhandy2 said:


> ... I don;t understand how MgS04 will increase the Gh, is it the Mg or the S04? I will do my wwc tomorrow and make the changes.
> 
> Thank you for your help, I appreciate it a lot.
> 
> Terry.


GH is mainly a measure of Calcium and Magnesium (and some other elements but in quantities small enough that we can ignore them) in the water. So both have an influence on the GH of your water. Here's an equation that may be helpful and gives you an idea of the influence of each on the GH (I've seen a similar equation with a slight variation but this is good enough):

GH = (ppm of Ca/7.2) + (ppm of Mg/4.4)

So adding 10mg/l of Mg will increase your GH by about 2.3 (10/4.4).


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

IceH20, that was a good article on Cl2, I think that my wish will be better off with out the addition of cloride.

Thanks,

Terry.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

imhandy2 said:


> Banderbe, first of all cranking the C02 usually is a remedy that a lot of people would first suggest when the first signs of algae appears. Secondly Banderbe, you are already getting annoying. I am new to this site and I have been biting my tongue with all your pointless and sarcastic interjections with my postings but you have pushed my limits. You come off like a big shot know it all so If you don't have anything positive to say then keep it to yourself. Do us all a favour and take some lessons in manners and graciousness.
> 
> Terry.


I'm sorry you feel that way, Terry. I'm curious to know why you feel it pointless and sarcastic to observe that highly respected aquarists have kept much lower CO2 levels and yet remained algae free.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of people have suggested a lot of things that turned out to be rubbish.

You're committing the logical fallacy _Argumentum ad populum. _


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Calm down guys... deep breaths...  

The point here is to try to solve an issue that Terry is currently having with his tank.

And I greatly enjoy spouting rubbish  ! 

So let's see if some of this rubbish will help Terry get a balanced healthy tank.


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## imhandy2 (May 2, 2006)

After my WWC I eliminated the CaCl2 and uped my MgS04. I then measured my GH 220mg/l, it has gone down from 280mg/l, it probably go down more with the next wwc right. I have been so busy that I hadn't had time to pick up a new Ca test kit to get my Mg reading. I am sure that the CaCl2 was stressing out my otocincluses.

Thanks,

Terry.


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