# Peat swamp habitat for crypts (in Germany)



## Kai Witte

Well, I promised to show pics of how I keep my Cryptocoryne (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=92893#post92893). So here we go!

BTW, I'll owe those of you who correctly identify 50% of the plants a beer when we get together (at an ECS meeting or elsewhere). 
People who know my stock don't qualify though...


----------



## Kai Witte

This is a small set-up to house many different blackwater species so it's already getting crowded although most were quite small back-up plantlets/cuttings 4 months ago. Space permitting, it's easy to scale-up this setting so that you can allow more than 1 mother plant within each container. (You can see where I didn't followed my own rule of thumb and need to thin out already. )

All crypts are in pots with acid leaf mould (i. e. highy decomposed leaf litter - cp. Niels' ground-breaking article: http://132.229.93.11/Cryptocoryne/Botanical/documents/Jacobsen/Fagus%20soil/Fagus_soil.doc) only and pure rain water added to taste. I guess this looks rather messy compared to some of the "clean" set-ups shown by others but, hey, it works!  I have kept the water just above ground level to allow a few cuttings without established growing points to catch up with the rest (next time rhizomes with really tiny leaves will go into a dedicated nursery tank though).

The mere stats: Tank with 60 cm (24") width, 30 cm (12") length, and 35 cm (14") height. Winter temperature about 23°C (73 °F), no additional heating. Light (12 h/d) supplied by a single 18W tube (Phillips TLD 840, electronic ballast).


----------



## EDGE

Such a nice and clean looking setup for all those difficult crypts. Your ability and knowledge to grow all those difficult crypts put us to shame.

I cannot find a source that explains the condition each crypts grow in. Do you have any sites you would recommend for this sort of information beside the informative article by Niel? Did you do a lot of experimenting long ago to come to understanding of what each crypts require? 

Have you ever tried increasing the amount of light over the setup?


----------



## plantbrain

You or at least Niels should identify the species of leaf mould, it's likely a basidomycetes....
I also know a substantial amount about wetland soil and fungi.
At lower pH's and decent O2 levels, the fungi will predominate, but many have assumed there is no or little fungal influences, in very low pH confier leaf littler, the fungi will no longer grow though, the only way for that to decompose: fire.

I've found numerous species of fungi on many different plants. 
Once the roots establish, the fungi should also and then you'll have good growth, as long as the fungi are working and having some benefit for the plant. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Freemann

> I cannot find a source that explains the condition each crypts grow in. Do you have any sites you would recommend for this sort of information beside the informative article by Niel? Did you do a lot of experimenting long ago to come to understanding of what each crypts require?


I would like also a list of crypts and their favorite conditions.
Which ones at least are the so called black water species??
Maybe we should start a different topic concerning this, people could at least put in it the species they already grow in different soils.


----------



## EDGE

Tom,

I was tempted to try adding hydroponic products containing microbes and fungi to the emersed setup water. I wanted to see if the additional microbes and fungi will increase the root growth and assist in the consumption of nutrients for the overall plant growth. The person (another hobbyist) I talked to said it is not necessary and the products are not worth the money because plants will produce the organisms/microbes and fungi at the roots by themselve. 

Was he correct that adding extra microbes and fungi via a commerical product to the water is not necessary in an inorganic environment using hydroton or gravel)?


----------



## Kai Witte

EDGE said:


> Such a nice and clean looking setup for all those difficult crypts. Your ability and knowledge to grow all those difficult crypts put us to shame.


Nah, I have to forward the kudos to the active members of the ECS who make this possible by sharing all those beauties! And, mind you, there are much more experienced crypt growers out there...



> I cannot find a source that explains the condition each crypts grow in.


That's a book still to be published... 
There's quite a bit of information dispersed throughout (mainly European and more lately Japanese) aquarium journals/publications including accounts by many travellers. It also pays to check the botanical literature for locality data and I'd recommend to read Whitmore's book (1998. An introduction to tropical rain forests. 2nd ed. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0198501471) for a good introduction into SE Asian rainforest types (which happen to host most Cryptocoryne species).



> Do you have any sites you would recommend for this sort of information beside the informative article by Niels?


Your best bet would be that goodies like this will be eventually included into Jan's Crypts Pages.



> Did you do a lot of experimenting long ago to come to understanding of what each crypts require?


Well, all of us longtime crypt nuts did a lot of experimenting but truth is that much of that has been superseded by Niels' method: Make a slurry from acid leaf mould and DI water, throw in any blackwater crypt, and - presto - you have a growing crypt. It's that easy! Currently the real challenges of successfully growing crypts are to be found with other species than blackwater crypts IMHO.



> Have you ever tried increasing the amount of light over the setup?


No, must be some Scottish genes in me. 8-[ 
Seriously though, that's more light than most blackwater crypts ever experience! You can certainly double/multiply that light intensity and will get faster growing plants if not any other growth factor becomes limiting (so you may need to add nutrients). From my experience there seems little need to set olympic growing records and IME the less you tweak things the more stable culture is in the long run.


----------



## Kai Witte

plantbrain said:


> You or at least Niels should identify the species of leaf mould, it's likely a basidomycetes....


Hi Tom, this seems to be a misunderstanding - I meant leaf mould as in soil/substrate rather than mildew/fungus. Sorry for being ambiguous!



> At lower pH's and decent O2 levels, the fungi will predominate, but many have assumed there is no or little fungal influences, in very low pH confier leaf littler, the fungi will no longer grow though, the only way for that to decompose: fire.


Well, vast peat swamps went ablaze during those recurrent fire catastrophes in SE Asia - after logging and partially draining them! :der:  
I suspect that drought may also play a role in slowing down decomposition of conifer litter akin to the humus accumulation in black steppe soils. While bacteria have a pretty hard time in highly acid environments, there are still actively decomposing fungi at a pH around 3 in those peat swamps.



> I've found numerous species of fungi on many different plants.
> Once the roots establish, the fungi should also and then you'll have good growth, as long as the fungi are working and having some benefit for the plant.


I did try to look into this. I suspect though that with crypts we're not speaking of some mycorhiza-like symbiosis but rather that a living soil (a fairly complex "ecosystem" for those who never did give it thought) seems to be better at providing all factors necessary for healthy growth.


----------



## Xema

Wow!! very nice and healthy stuff!!!

I am growing C. longicauda with the Jacobsen´s method, and I am getting better result than poted plant method.
I am quite familiar with N. Jacobsen article, I traslated into spanish some weeks ago... I love his theory about the dead leaves acummulation what dissolves tanins, and other substances in the water, so plants generally found growing on sand are needing leaf litter too.

Greets from Spain


----------



## Kai Witte

EDGE said:


> I was tempted to try adding hydroponic products containing microbes and fungi to the emersed setup water. I wanted to see if the additional microbes and fungi will increase the root growth and assist in the consumption of nutrients for the overall plant growth. The person (another hobbyist) I talked to said it is not necessary and the products are not worth the money because plants will produce the organisms/microbes and fungi at the roots by themselve.


I'd give it a try if the company producing the stuff is qualified. There are some good products available today but often you need to establish yourself wether there's any benefit for your special growing situation (and if yes, wether the price is worth it).



> Was he correct that adding extra microbes and fungi via a commerical product to the water is not necessary in an inorganic environment using hydroton or gravel)?


Seems more like a environment which could benefit from adding a little organic matter and suitable microorganisms. Of course, you could also try a DIY approach with regularly adding water from a well-running blackwater set-up as shown above.


----------



## Kai Witte

Xema said:


> I love his theory about the dead leaves acummulation what dissolves tanins, and other substances in the water, so plants generally found growing on sand are needing leaf litter too.


I'm not really convinced of any of the theories trying to explain why this actually works. However, there's no doubt that blackwater crypts found on sand as well as in deep leaf litter (e.g. many members of the cordata group) in nature actually need the "black stuff" rather than the sand to thrive... 

(Note that the more easily growing cordata widely distributed in the hobby don't come from blackwater habitats.)


----------



## EDGE

Kai,

I am still unsure what the 'black stuff' is. People just call them humus, but when I search the web, there are a lot of info saying different things about the black stuff. The conclusion I get is that they are decompose plants, organism, or by product of organism such as earthworm casting, humic and fulvic acid + inorganic humis, decompose remains with high Nitrogen and or Carbon, and so forth.

I am guessing microbes, fungi and organic acids is the large part of the black stuff, but is high nitrogen also the key to growing crypts?

I have searched the web for making compose using vegetative matter. Compose seems to have a high amount of Nitrogen. Even though we are not dosing a lot of nutrients to the water, could it be the liquid mush contains a high amount of nutrients; as a result we don't have to dose at all? 

what could I do to increase water movement at the roots and O2 level in the water? 

These were some of the questions that came to mind a few months ago when I was mixing a nutrient solution for crypts not grown in liquid mush.

Hopefully, I will be able to test this idea with one of the more difficult to grow crypt, griffithii.


----------



## Kai Witte

Hello Edge,

Sorry, forgot to answer your questions!



> I am still unsure what the 'black stuff' is. People just call them humus, but when I search the web, there are a lot of info saying different things about the black stuff. The conclusion I get is that they are decompose plants, organism, or by product of organism such as earthworm casting, humic and fulvic acid + inorganic humis, decompose remains with high Nitrogen and or Carbon, and so forth.
> I am guessing microbes, fungi and organic acids is the large part of the black stuff, but is high nitrogen also the key to growing crypts?


No, blackwater crypts (as well as most others) don't need a lot of nutrients - actually they are adapted to get along with very, very little nutrients! In culture, they certainly benefit from having more nutrients available than in nature. But I prefer to err on the low side (slower growth) than offering too much which can open a can of worms... 



> I have searched the web for making compose using vegetative matter. Compose seems to have a high amount of Nitrogen. Even though we are not dosing a lot of nutrients to the water, could it be the liquid mush contains a high amount of nutrients; as a result we don't have to dose at all?


The nutrient composition (amounts and ratios) is heavily dependant on the plant matter decomposed. As a rule of thumb, mould from leaf litter and wood is poor in nutrients whereas some originating from e.g. kitchen vegetable waste is high in nutrients.



> what could I do to increase water movement at the roots and O2 level in the water?


IME not needed if the organic matter is only slowly decomposing (low pH, low nutrients).



> These were some of the questions that came to mind a few months ago when I was mixing a nutrient solution for crypts not grown in liquid mush.
> Hopefully, I will be able to test this idea with one of the more difficult to grow crypt, griffithii.


Please keep us posted!


----------



## Kai Witte

Just a short update - an example of several C. longicauda flowering a while ago:


----------



## newellcr

Kai,

Nice plants! Thanks for sharing the article.

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## Kai Witte

> Nice plants! Thanks for sharing the article.


Hello Chris,

Thanks for the kudos!

I assume you mean Niels' article? That's of course hosted at Jan's great site!


----------



## HeyPK

Do we really know if the acidity is important in the leaf mold, or is it the amount of organic matter and its effect on redox potentials and, therefore, availability of iron and manganese? Has anybody done an experiment? I propose that someone who has some of the blackwater crypts try one plant in the leaf mold and the other in leaf mold with added ground limestone or ground up eggshells added. The limestone or egg shells would keep the pH much higher. It would be interesting to see if this actually harms the growth. 

Anybody interested in doing this experiment?


----------



## EDGE

Is there any other way to increase pH without using carbonate source? a lot of the acidic and soft water loving plants can't tolerate kH in the water.


----------



## Kai Witte

EDGE said:


> Is there any other way to increase pH without using carbonate source? a lot of the acidic and soft water loving plants can't tolerate kH in the water.


I assume we're talking emersed culture here to take this carbon uptake problem out of the equation.


----------



## Kai Witte

Hey Paul,



> Do we really know if the acidity is important in the leaf mold


Yes and no... 
I've done quite a bit of testing but am not ready to publish details yet.



> or is it the amount of organic matter and its effect on redox potentials and, therefore, availability of iron and manganese?


Contrary to common assumption, the highly specialized crypts from the raised peat swamp forests don't experience high levels of available micronutrients - their only supply is mere rain water!



> I propose that someone who has some of the blackwater crypts try one plant in the leaf mold and the other in leaf mold with added ground limestone or ground up eggshells added. The limestone or egg shells would keep the pH much higher. It would be interesting to see if this actually harms the growth.


We know from earlier attempts to grow blackwater crypts that many/most can tolerate higher pH than they ever experience in nature (e.g. about pH 6). However, even if starting out with lush growth, many crypts posed problems in longterm culture and many stocks vanished within 2-3 years despite generous repotting and other measures.

I believe that with these plants we need to view their soil as an ecosystem where tampering with a single factor may have unexpected deleterious effects rather than it being a substrate which just delivers all necessary nutrients...


----------



## Xema

Hello,

Paul, I think ph is quite important... many japanese hobbiest growing their plant within ADA and akadama soil, not really acid stuff both, around 5-6. But they are rather succefull growing many swamp sp. beacause they keep the around pots water with a low pH.
I think the experiment that you propose would be more accurate if the plant would be grown on rockwool and usig a acid water adding acid or another stuff.


----------



## HeyPK

A lot of us crypt nuts *think* that low pH is important, but, do we *know* that low pH is important? Do we *know* that higher GH (levels of calcium and magnesium) is harmful, and, if they are, why are they harmful? Why would a neutral pH (around 7) be harmful? We know that Neils Jacobsen found that a number of hard-to-grow crypts grew substantially better in his beech leaf compost, which has a low pH, and is low in calcium and magnesium, but, I think we are making assumptions as to what is important.

There is also the question of nitrogen availability. There are many reports that many crypts grow better when nitrogen availability is low. This may well be true, but *why*? The levels of nitrogen that would appear to harm crypt growth are not high enough to harm plants by any known mechanism.


----------



## newellcr

Hello Paul,

Yes, I follow you. Success in Beech tree litter (or another specific 'soil' type) can be looked at in several different ways. We need to be wary of jumping to scientific conclusions based on anecdotal successes. When the science is missing, we fill in 'facts' as best we can. 

Then again, what fun would it be without spirited debate...

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## Kai Witte

Hello Paul,



HeyPK said:


> A lot of us crypt nuts *think* that low pH is important, but, do we *know* that low pH is important?


Well, I already stipulated that in emersed culture many blackwater crypts can be grown under more mesic ("moderate") conditions than found in nature. We have to remember that these crypts are growing in these extreme habitats because they *can* survive there (rather than preferring a life style at the edge of starvation) and that they are not found in more mesic habitats because these are alrady occupied by more competitive plants. So it's not exactly a surprise that you can experience lush growth under mesic conditions in cultivation.

That being said, a lot of experienced growers regularly lost plants in the long run when trying to maintain their stocks under such conditions. Moreover, you have to accept that not all plants are born equal: try to grow a _Rhododendron_ in limestone/dolomite soil and you're going to fail regardless of fertilization scheme (a thin, acidic humus layer on limestone/dolomite rocks may be an entirely different matter).



> Do we *know* that higher GH (levels of calcium and magnesium) is harmful, and, if they are, why are they harmful?


Higher calcium/magnesium ion levels are not problematic per se (at least with some of these crypts). However, they may result in deleterious side effects like accellerated decomposition.



> Why would a neutral pH (around 7) be harmful?


Several posibilities (including being suboptimal rather than harmful) - the most obvious would be problems with carbon uptake in submersed culture if not supplemented with an additional carbon dioxide source.



> We know that Neils Jacobsen found that a number of hard-to-grow crypts grew substantially better in his beech leaf compost, which has a low pH, and is low in calcium and magnesium, but, I think we are making assumptions as to what is important.


Well, Niels is pretty up-front that it's not the beech origin which is important. It's just an attempt to get as close to the original habitat as possible with local resources (in your area it may be oak or some other tree leaf mould...). And it works! Once you have thriving plants, you can always plant up runners in different soil mixes and experiment at leisure...  Just keep us posted about your findings, please.


----------



## newellcr

*Peat swamp habitat for crypts*

"Then again, what fun would it be without spirited debate..."

Heh, heh, heh, ...

Hello Kai,

"Well, Niels is pretty up-front that it's not the beech origin which is important. It's just an attempt to get as close to the original habitat as possible with local resources (in your area it may be oak or some other tree leaf mould...). And it works! Once you have thriving plants, you can always plant up runners in different soil mixes and experiment at leisure... Just keep us posted about your findings, please. "

Yes, finding what works for your own set up is very important. As is having access to plants. I haven't heard too much about folks in North America using collected leaf litter for their crypts. In the near future, I plan to give it a try.

Anybody have any stories they would like to share?

Kind Regards,

Chris


----------



## Kai Witte

newellcr said:


> "Then again, what fun would it be without spirited debate...


Yup, keep it coming! 

Hello Chris,



> Yes, finding what works for your own set up is very important. As is having access to plants.


Ok, we're working at that, I guess... 



> I haven't heard too much about folks in North America using collected leaf litter for their crypts. In the near future, I plan to give it a try.


It certainly helps to have experienced blackwater crypt habitats yourself (with all your senses) to give this kinda "messy" approach a try. It's quite a paradigm shift if you're used to mineral based soil mixes (or even pure quartz gravel)...

BTW, I should highlight that assessing the quality of the collected leaf (litter) mould is important. And although there are several possible approaches to utilize it, there are even more ways to get things wrong. Please remind me to start a thread on this topic.


----------



## SCMurphy

Kai Witte said:


> BTW, I should highlight that assessing the quality of the collected leaf (litter) mould is important. And although there are several possible approaches to utilize it, there are even more ways to get things wrong. Please remind me to start a thread on this topic.


Kai,

Did you ever start this thread?


----------



## mrbelvedere138

My question is where does one acquire beech tree mould?


----------



## Stephan K.

Hi Dennis,

the best way to get beech tree mould is under a beech tree.  

In Europe we have large beech groves. So we have no problems to acquire it. But as Kai said, the quality differs and therefore the results with Crypts too.

Stephan


----------



## SCMurphy

Dennis, it's just the naturally composted leaves of beech trees. They like to use the leaves that are 3 years or longer on the ground. They sweep away the fresh top layers (the leaves that are still whole) to get to the good stuff.

BTW Your sig shows a deep misunderstanding of the theory of natural selection. Your example actually upholds Darwin, better parental care means better survivability.


----------



## Kai Witte

> Kai, Did you ever start this thread?


Sorry for the delay, Sean!

I'll try to get some of the stuff online after the weekend; I've already prepared a bit on the leaf-mold assessment/measurements topic...


----------



## mrbelvedere138

SCMurphy said:


> Dennis, it's just the naturally composted leaves of beech trees. They like to use the leaves that are 3 years or longer on the ground. They sweep away the fresh top layers (the leaves that are still whole) to get to the good stuff.
> 
> BTW Your sig shows a deep misunderstanding of the theory of natural selection. Your example actually upholds Darwin, better parental care means better survivability.


Lol......I'm not Dennis, name's David. That's a quote from Dennis that I especially liked. I really should change that, it creates a lot of confusion.


----------



## dennis

mrbelvedere138 said:


> Lol......I'm not Dennis, name's David. That's a quote from Dennis that I especially liked. I really should change that, it creates a lot of confusion.


Lots of confusion If memory serves about the "quote", it was intended to describe my feelings regarding warning labels. The quote as it is does not read that way but in the original context I was trying to explain how we are messing up the "survival of the fittest concept" by protecting those that natural selection would normally remove from the gene-pool. Signs like "Turn off engine before service" and "No smoking" at a gas pump.... see what I mean. Of course, your right in that reads poorly. Sorry

Also, sorry for the off topic but I look forward to reading your stuff Kai!


----------



## rs79

Kai Witte said:


> All crypts are in pots with acid leaf mould (i. e. highy decomposed leaf litter - cp. Niels' ground-breaking article: http://132.229.93.11/Cryptocoryne/Botanical/documents/Jacobsen/Fagus%20soil/Fagus_soil.doc)


The URL for this important document has changed. These days it's:
http://www.nationaalherbarium.nl/Cryptocoryne/Botanical/documents/Jacobsen/Fagus soil/Fagus_soil.doc


----------



## naturefighter

Hi Kai,

where are you from? Germany? 
Nice plants!


----------



## Kai Witte

Yup, Germany. 

I hope you're not fighting nature though... :boxing: :bathbaby:


----------



## mrbelvedere138

Is there a commercial source for this beech tree litter? I can't easily locate any in my area. Is there anyone willing to ship any to me?


----------



## AaronT

mrbelvedere138 said:


> Is there a commercial source for this beech tree litter? I can't easily locate any in my area. Is there anyone willing to ship any to me?


Do you have or know of anyone who has a leaf pile from every fall? So long as there isn't a lot of limestone in the area that's a great place to get suitable litter. Just dig down to the nice black stuff at the bottom of a 2-3 year old pile and use that.


----------



## mrbelvedere138

Might not work around here. Our soil is basic, and we sit on a bed of limestone. So does our aquifer. We've actually got a limestone mine of sorts 30 miles away.


----------



## HeyPK

If you just have the partially decomposed leaves with a little bit of the topmost soil, it could still be low in carbonates due to leaching by rains.


----------



## mrbelvedere138

That would make sense. After all, the acidity would make them more soluble in water right? Okay, I'll find some.


----------



## Kai Witte

I never had much success with sources from limestone areas when using it for blackwater crypts but that doesn't mean that much - you'll just have to test it with growing some "guinea pig crypts."

BTW, that also goes for really acid leaf-mold which isn't guaranteed to work best! Your's will be most likely only slightly acid or even neutral which may work better with less specialized crypts. However, Chris has had very good success with his neutral leaf-mold/muck.


----------

