# Funny tank



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I wonder how many pounds of ferts does this tank need a week.

Idea of the size:









So-so clean + ugly common plants:









Overfiltration just because they can. Totally not needed if you make the plants grow well by using a lot of ferts and change 50% water a week. Note the silicone full of algae:









Ugly again:









I have no doubt that huge tank uses LED lighting. Nevermind that all the other tanks in the same place use fluorescents + Metal Halides as you can see on other pictures from the same website.

For the innocent soul that took what I wrote above at face value: That is a new tank, that is why the silicone is still looking so new. The tank is most likely run like all Japanese tanks are - without tons of fertilizers every week which will keep the silicone looking new for years. The wood is also new and clean - even with low fertilizers in the water wood still need rigorous brushing to remove encrusting algae. Japanese tanks have a dirty secret - they take much more work than we all think to look picture perfect and scrubbing the wood to make it look perfectly clean is only one example. The filtration is not as much as it seems because Eheim filters (if that is what the actual canisters are) by design do not have a huge flow. Note the placement of the pipes - all 8 on one side. No intention to use them all over to "move the water better everywhere". Some of the plants are Bucephalandras which are both rare and expensive. Vasteq here on this forum knows more about them than anyone and sells some too. The lights are not LED, if they were they would be big and very expensive boxes over the tank because LEDs just can't compete with Halides and Halogens when it comes to PAR unless you forget about the price and the sleek low profile look.

More, much more similar nonsense:
http://seikasuisoubu.jugem.jp/?month=201206


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## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Nice tank, I don't fancy all those green filter outlets. I think that would have looked way better if the entire thing was made out of the stainless steel like the pipes on the side.

BTW, no shop like this in the Netherlands, Amazing:


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

Oh, that place? It's ok. It was my local aquatics store when I lived over there. I found a lot of places that were better though. 



ROFLMAO! That's amazing! I like how they arranged the filter intake-outlet but would love to see how they arranged the filters themselves.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I'm not saying the Japanese aesthetic doesn't work, but you almost never see them keeping light and nitrogen demanding plants. Why? Because they don't like to fertilize the water column. I'm not saying that's not a gorgeous tank because it is. My point is that ferns and Bucephalandra are super easy to keep so having a tank full of them healthy is not all that impressive. Show me a tank that large full of Rotala mexicana 'Green' or Ludwigiai inclinata var. inclinata with no water column dosing and no stunting.

The nitrogen demanding plants they do keep such as Glossostigma require you to replace Aquasoil and powersand every time you start a new aquascape. That gets really expensive really fast. You can get similar results dosing the water column and using really good filtration as well once the Aquasoil is depeleted. 

I sent Amano a few different packages of plants and he would complain he couldn't get some of them to grow. They grow just fine for me and several other folks.


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## UltraBlue (Mar 8, 2011)

AaronT said:


> I'm not saying the Japanese aesthetic doesn't work, but you almost never see them keeping light and nitrogen demanding plants. Why? Because they don't like to fertilize the water column. I'm not saying that's not a gorgeous tank because it is. My point is that ferns and Bucephalandra are super easy to keep so having a tank full of them healthy is not all that impressive. Show me a tank that large full of Rotala mexicana 'Green' or Ludwigiai inclinata var. inclinata with no water column dosing and no stunting.
> 
> The nitrogen demanding plants they do keep such as Glossostigma require you to replace Aquasoil and powersand every time you start a new aquascape. That gets really expensive really fast. You can get similar results dosing the water column and using really good filtration as well once the Aquasoil is depeleted.
> 
> I sent Amano a few different packages of plants and he would complain he couldn't get some of them to grow. They grow just fine for me and several other folks.


Dead on! :hail:


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Phil Edwards said:


> Oh, that place? It's ok. It was my local aquatics store when I lived over there. I found a lot of places that were better though.


Where is that tank located? And where are there better stores? Was it near Philadelphia?


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Zapins said:


> Where is that tank located? And where are there better stores? Was it near Philadelphia?


I think Phil was joking man. Phil lived in Japan until recently.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Ahhh shame on you Phil! Giving me all that hope... grumble grumble.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

LOL, thanks for clarifying Aaron. Sorry for getting your hopes up Zap. 

I'm going to rebut what you said about the way the Japanese keep tanks. Nearly all of the stores I visited had both low maintenance and high maintenance tanks. Some of the most beautiful, and high maintenance, stem tanks I've seen in person were at these stores. The trick is they tended to be on the smaller (<50 gallon) size. From personal experience, anything bigger than that with high growth plants requires more maintenance time than most store managers are willing to give their workers. When dealing with bigger tanks it's best to go with low maintenance systems from a time management perspective. Also, having a variety of low maintenance systems to show customers who want something beautiful, but easy to keep, is good marketing. If you go into a store like Aqua Forest in Shinjuku station (arguably the best planted tank store in the world) you'll see some astounding high maintenance setups.

As famous as ADA is around the world, it's just one of a number of aquarium supply companies there, and is actually not as prevalent as their marketing makes it appear. They've got insane requirements of their retailers so most non-specialty stores (the majority of what I saw) don't bother to carry their stuff. Even then, many stores that do carry their stuff do so almost as a hobby or to be able to say they carry it. I would guess that only the stores who deal with the highest end clientele (aka Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, etc) have a large and viable market. Their stuff is only slightly cheaper over there than it is here.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Dupla, Tetra, Eheim, Brightwell, and other well known Western brands in many stores I visited. They've got the knowledge and it appears many people do dose their water columns.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Phil Edwards said:


> LOL, thanks for clarifying Aaron. Sorry for getting your hopes up Zap.
> 
> I'm going to rebut what you said about the way the Japanese keep tanks. Nearly all of the stores I visited had both low maintenance and high maintenance tanks. Some of the most beautiful, and high maintenance, stem tanks I've seen in person were at these stores. The trick is they tended to be on the smaller (<50 gallon) size. From personal experience, anything bigger than that with high growth plants requires more maintenance time than most store managers are willing to give their workers. When dealing with bigger tanks it's best to go with low maintenance systems from a time management perspective. Also, having a variety of low maintenance systems to show customers who want something beautiful, but easy to keep, is good marketing. If you go into a store like Aqua Forest in Shinjuku station (arguably the best planted tank store in the world) you'll see some astounding high maintenance setups.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying Phil, though I'm not sure this rebuts my statement so much as it does Niko's original post suggesting that all successful Japanese tanks are low-maintenance with no water column dosing.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

I think the *most* successful tanks, i.e. the one we see in contests and ADA's literature, are as described. I also think that the majority of Japanese hobbyists use more stems and fertilizers than popular marketing suggests. 

Oh, I forgot to add. In the local aquatics speciality shop I frequented a 100% ADA 5.5g setup with all the trimmings, plants and fish included was running $1,250 US. Yes. One-thousand, two-hundred, and fifty US dollars....for a nano setup.........:attention


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Phil Edwards said:


> I think the *most* successful tanks, i.e. the one we see in contests and ADA's literature, are as described. I also think that the majority of Japanese hobbyists use more stems and fertilizers than popular marketing suggests.


Yup, you are still agreeing with me.  The "easy" tanks that Niko is purporting are what ADA supports because that's their marketing scheme. I'm personally done with moss covered rocks winning the IAPLC every year and I think it's a joke and totally rigged toward that aesthetic.

My point is that like it or not Tom Barr grows some crazy nice plants and he can scape pretty well too so his methods do work. There's more than one way to do planted aquariums and they aren't all necessarily right or wrong.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Aaron,

Many of the tanks in the Ada contest are made up in a variety of ways. It is all meant to bring the attention to ADA and their products. I do not like the Japanese style and products and I do not talk about it being the best way to aquascape or run a planted tank. But the product line is made with much more thought than anything else we have seen. And nothing is explained too clearly. That's that.

The other thing is the mentality that Barr brought to this hobby - fertilizers, lost of CO2, and water changes are the only things needed to run a stable tank. The original EI posts say that it is cheap and easy. It is cheap indeed if you don't consider the effort and frustrations it brings. It is easy if you don't consider the ever-blossoming algae and deficiency discussions and the weekly 50% water changes or else. Bottom line: for most people EI is the best most scientific approach to run a planted tank (note: not just a fertilizing approach) we got and they will fervently defend their educated opinion and choice of 1 option. I hope that you like that last sentence as much as I do.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

niko said:


> The other thing is the mentality that Barr brought to this hobby - fertilizers, lost of CO2, and water changes are the only things needed to run a stable tank. The original EI posts say that it is cheap and easy. It is cheap indeed if you don't consider the effort and frustrations it brings. It is easy if you don't consider the ever-blossoming algae and deficiency discussions and the weekly 50% water changes or else. Bottom line: for most people EI is the best most scientific approach to run a planted tank (note: not just a fertilizing approach) we got and they will fervently defend their educated opinion and choice of 1 option. I hope that you like that last sentence as much as I do.


Having talked to Tom a good bit in person I get the feeling it's more his followers that are do or die EI folks. It's the way he chooses to run his tanks, but he's always been happy to help me with experimenting with other methods and he's a huge proponent for large biofiltration, high O2 levels, and overall tank cleanliness just as you are.

I don't disagree that this whole my way is the only way mentality hurts the hobby badly. That's why I was challenging your somewhat sarcastic approach in the OP of this thread. Yes, the Japanese create some awesome aquascapes, but it's also not the only way.

Crazy water changes or not this hobby is not for the lazy. Truly spectacular tanks all take a lot of work no matter what method you choose. 

I do agree with you that fundamentals like good filtration, proper water flow, temperature, and overall tank cleanliness are vastly overlooked as the real reasons for algae woes.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

*Aaron*,

I'm 100% with you on this one. I'm sick and tired of seeing tanks like those that do the best in IAPLC. Call me old school or whatever, but if I wanted a landscape I'd get a painting. Moss, Crypt, and epiphyte tanks will always be my favorite because that's the aesthetic I like most, but I'd rather have a rainforest in my tank than Arizona Cactus Land. I'd love to see someone do a killer old school NA tank, NAW 1-3 style, and take 1st place.

I've used PMDD and EI methods for years and still will use them. Those methods will grow the holy hell out of plants. After all my research and school work I've come to realize that they're not *stable* methods. Mineralized Soil or other manufactured soil based substrates create a much more stable system, IMO. That being said, I don't mind the work required for PMDD/EI tanks. You're right, the higher levels of this hobby are in general, not for hands off people.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Phil Edwards said:


> I think the *most* successful tanks, i.e. the one we see in contests and ADA's literature, are as described. I also think that the majority of Japanese hobbyists use more stems and fertilizers than popular marketing suggests.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to add. In the local aquatics speciality shop I frequented a 100% ADA 5.5g setup with all the trimmings, plants and fish included was running $1,250 US. Yes. One-thousand, two-hundred, and fifty US dollars....for a nano setup.........:attention


I really doubt you could make any profit selling those in the use for that price the lily pipes and the filter alone are half that cost. granted there is some mark up for retail, but even at 25% it would be really, really close.


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## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

TAB,

That local store was in Shimizu, Japan and someone did indeed end up buying it. My mind. It was blown. http://www.a-pisces.com

I wasn't exaggerating when I said it had all the trimmings. It was a complete set, tank, filter, light, tools, acrylic this and that holders and stand, fertilizers, CO2, plants, fish, shrimp...everything.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

Then some one got a bery good deal on what ammounts to a piece of living art. while it may sound like alot of money too many people its nothing. i wish i was like that, but i see that as 2 months of food for my family.


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## barrel (Dec 31, 2011)

a 600 hundred some gallon tank with buces sounds splendid - ya know, especially if they farm them out


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