# How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate, by Aaron Talbot



## AaronT

How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate​

 Over the years dedicated aquatic plant hobbyists have developed many different methods to maintain vibrant freshwater flora. After having tried almost all of the popular fertilization techniques, I have finally found one that produces consistently healthy aquatic plants. That fertilization method imparts essential nutrients by using mineralized topsoil as a substrate.

When I joined the Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association about four years ago, I attended my first official meeting at the home of Sean Murphy. Sean is a Fisheries Biologist by trade and has been employing mineralized soil in his planted aquariums for nearly two decades now. He developed a "recipe" for the soil substrate during his collegiate studies of wetlands soils. It is his recipe that I have recently begun using with great success.

Using topsoil or potting soil as a substrate is not a new idea. Aquarists have been using this method to grow healthy aquatic plants for decades. However, this method does seem to pose some problems, namely algae outbreaks resulting from light intensity that is too strong. This is especially true when you first set up your aquarium with this type of substrate. The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.

Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. Soil mineralization occurs from exposing bacteria, enzymes and other soil microbes to oxygen in a moist environment. The microbes break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available minerals. As an added bonus these new bio-available forms of nutrients are generally only available to plants and not to algae.

There are a few other components to the mineralized soil recipe. Clay provides a source of iron. The clay also serves to bind with the soil as a flocculating agent. When plants are uprooted or disturbed, the added clay will help the soil to settle back to the bottom of the tank. Adding Dolomite to the base of the substrate will provide plants with the necessary calcium and magnesium they need for healthy growth. The calcium and magnesium in the dolomite will also help to keep the soil from becoming too acidic. Lastly, add soluble potash for an initial potassium source.

It is still possible to use pressurized CO2 and high lighting with this method of fertilization. I have setup four tanks using this method and all of them have been high-tech setups using CO2 and high lighting. I rarely ever have to dose any supplements save for the occasional dose of potassium. Use caution when dosing and dose very little amounts at a time.

*I've composed a list of materials and step-by-step instructions for those readers who would like to try the mineralized soil substrate method. *

*Materials Needed*

• Cheap topsoil 
• Pottery clay
• Dolomite
• Muriate of potash
• Fine gravel or coarse sand
• Large container for soaking soil
• Screen made from scrap wood and chicken wire
• Nylon screening material
• Large plastic tarp

*Step 1 - Purchase and Rinse the Topsoil*

Open the bag of topsoil and distribute in the container of your choice for soaking purposes. I use large Rubbermaid containers that are readily available from any mega-mart. You will want to use cheap topsoil and not potting soil. Potting soil has additives to avoid such as fertilizers, vermiculite and peat moss. 
Fill the tub with water so the water level is a few inches above the top of the soil. I like to stir it around a bit to help break up any big clumps and evenly distribute the water. Let this soak for a day or two. Come back and slowly dump the water off of the top. Now add in more water so the soil is well covered. This water changing process helps to "rinse" the soil of any possible fertilizers or other harmful water soluble chemicals.

*Step 2 - Allow the Topsoil to Dry*

Pour the excess water out of the container as you did when changing the water. Lay out the large plastic tarp, preferably in direct sunlight. Dump out the muddy soil and spread it relatively thin over the tarp. Allow the soil to dry completely. This can take a day or two and depends greatly on how warm the temperature is where you are drying the soil. This part of the process could be done indoors. Though due to its messy nature, I suggest doing it outdoors if possible. When the soil is completely dry, add it back into the soaking container.
The drying process is the part that allows the microbes in the soil to begin mineralizing the nutrients. Exposing it to air oxygenates the soil.

*Step 3 - Repeat the Rinsing and Drying Cycles*

Repeat steps 1 and 2 three to four times. Repeating the steps is necessary to further mineralize the soil and remove any lingering fertilizers. The soil mineralizes the most during the time while it is still moist and exposed to air on the large tarp. By soaking it over again we reintroduce the needed moisture for this process to take place. When the soil is near fully mineralized it will have a very grainy texture. Another way to tell that the soil is ready is by smell. There will be virtually no smell coming from the soil once it is mineralized.









_ Mineralized Topsoil_

*Step 4 (optional) - Sift the Soil to Remove Debris*

Screening the soil can help to remove any large organic materials that the short mineralization process employed thus far cannot remove. I have setup tanks where I skipped Step 4 and others where I used it. I have found that adding this step to the process helps to further eliminate algae issues after a tank is newly setup.
You can use a wooden frame with chicken wire stapled to four sides. Then place nylon screening material overtop. Place a few handfuls of soil on top and gently push the soil across the surface of the screen. Make sure to put a container underneath to catch the sifted soil. Below is a picture of the sticks, leaves and stones that can be removed during this step. The resulting sifted soil will feel like airy sand.









_Screening Setup_

*Step 5 - Add the Clay*

Now that you have a mineralized soil to use as the substrate, you will want to add in the aforementioned clay. Estimate how much clay you will need so that the resulting mixture of soil and clay is about 5% to 10% clay. If you prefer measurements I use about ¼ of a pound of clay per square foot of tank bottom. 
To add the clay you soak it in a container of water to help emulsify it and make it easier to incorporate into the soil. A second option to add clay is to dry the clay in the open air and then crush it into a powder and add it to the soil. In either case you will want to eventually add enough water to the mixture to form a nice runny mud.









_ Mineralized Soil Mud with Clay Added_

*Step 6 (optional) - Create an Aesthetic Border*

Now comes the fun part of setting up the aquarium. Add the gravel of your choice just along the front and side edges of the aquarium bottom. Wet it just enough that it holds a slope and press it up against the sides. Doing this step ensures that we will not see the different layers of substrate when viewing the tank from the front and sides. In this instance I have chosen to use 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand as a substrate top layer. I prefer this coarse sand for many reasons. It is very dense and holds a slope for a long period of time. The finer granules also allow for easy planting.









_Sand Border_

*Step 7 - Add the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash*

Sprinkle a light dusting of both the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom glass of the tank. The bottom of the glass should still be somewhat visible.









_Sprinkling of Dolomite and Potash_

*Step 8 - Add the Mineralized Mud*

Fill in the borders you've created with the runny mud mixture of mineralized soil and clay. This layer should be anywhere from ½" to 1" deep.









_Mineralized Mud Added_

*Step 9 - Top With Gravel*

Cover the mud with more of the same border gravel from step 6. If you skipped step 6 then simply cover over the mud with the gravel of your choice. Cover the mud by about 1" in the front to 2" in the back of the tank to create a nice sloping substrate effect.









_Gravel Top Layer Added_

*Step 10 - Slowly Fill the Aquarium and Begin Planting*

Begin planting and filling the aquarium as you would any other planted aquarium. Use caution when filling the tank with water. Go slowly to avoid disturbing the substrate and uncovering the soil.

*The End Product*

I hope this has inspired you to try something new. I know I had wanted to try mineralized soil for some time after seeing Sean's beautiful aquariums. I finally got up the courage to set up a small 20 gallon tank last year and now I'm hooked. With a little patience and trial and error, I think you'll be pleased with the results.









_ My ADA 90-P aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate _









_My AGA 75 gallon aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate_


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## hooha

this method has worked quite well with my nano tanks as well. Thanks Aaron!


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## AaronT

I'm glad it's working out well for you. It's exciting to see so many new people giving it a try.


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## aquanut

interesting writeup Aaron.

a few questions if I may;

what do you see as the principal benefit of this method when compared to using an already nutrient enriched substrate like Aquasoil, or Tropica's new line of fertilizer enriched substrates?

secondly, have you found that stirring, or agitating the substrate is particularly hazardous in comparison to disturbing a non enriched substrate? if so, what steps do you take to prevent substrate disturbance? 

lastly... who still uses the term "muriate"?  that is so old school. like, back in the old gravimetric world of chemistry, prior to the invention of the "mole".

anyway, thanks for taking the time to write this up. Ive seen it mentioned many times before, never actually understood what was required to complete the process.


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## AaronT

aquanut said:


> interesting writeup Aaron.
> 
> a few questions if I may;
> 
> what do you see as the principal benefit of this method when compared to using an already nutrient enriched substrate like Aquasoil, or Tropica's new line of fertilizer enriched substrates?


The mineralized topsoil will last for years and years needing only the occasional very small dose of potassium after the initial potassium source is used up. I've used Aquasoil and do like it, but it eventually requires dosing as I suspect the Tropica substrate will too. The 75 gallon tank in the picture was a year old when that picture was taken and I'd never dosed a thing.



> secondly, have you found that stirring, or agitating the substrate is particularly hazardous in comparison to disturbing a non enriched substrate? if so, what steps do you take to prevent substrate disturbance?


As with any other substrate I always turn off any filters or powerheads before doing any real serious disturbing of the substrate. Whenever I do a major overhaul the water does get pretty cloudy, but a large water change and a night of filtration clears it up just as fast as if you'd disturbed mature Flourite or Aquasoil. I've also never noticed such a disturbance to trigger any algae blooms. Due to the soil being capped with your choice of inert substrate it doesn't tend to get disturbed easily on its own.



> lastly... who still uses the term "muriate"?  that is so old school. like, back in the old gravimetric world of chemistry, prior to the invention of the "mole".


I'm certainly no chemist, only a hobbyist. I'm just reading what's on the bag. 



> anyway, thanks for taking the time to write this up. Ive seen it mentioned many times before, never actually understood what was required to complete the process.


You're quite welcome. I hope you give it a try sometime. If you need help along the way I'm happy to oblige.


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## Castaic Fisherman

Have you had any experience using calcium montmorillonite clay instead of "pottery" clay?


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## AaronT

Castaic Fisherman said:


> Have you had any experience using calcium montmorillonite clay instead of "pottery" clay?


No, I've only used the pottery clay to date.


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## Castaic Fisherman

Is there something special about pottery clay such as higher iron content?


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## AaronT

Castaic Fisherman said:


> Is there something special about pottery clay such as higher iron content?


Yes, the higher iron content is the reason I chose the red clay that I used.


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## Castaic Fisherman

The montmorillonite is supposedly very good for fish and plants. Maybe I'll try both.


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## AaronT

Castaic Fisherman said:


> The montmorillonite is supposedly very good for fish and plants. Maybe I'll try both.


Sure, give it a try and report back to us how it works out. I can't imagine it would propose any huge issues if any at all.


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## erijnal

Aaron, could you give a general ballpark in terms of total overall cost? (Not per tank-wise, but with the materials you presented)

Are there any irregularities with the cycling process, or will planting the tank densely take care of most issues?

Have you noticed any effects on water parameters, or the general well-being of fish/shrimp/plants that are known to prefer softer water?

Finally, using the materials you presented, what's your estimate in terms of volume (in liters)?


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## AaronT

erijnal said:


> Aaron, could you give a general ballpark in terms of total overall cost? (Not per tank-wise, but with the materials you presented)


Sure...

Topsoil: $2.00 / bag
Potash: $8.00 / bag
Clay: $15.00 / 13 lb. block (You can also use Laterite)
Dolomite $12.00 / bag
Top Layer $ ??? It depends on which one you choose.

The three additives are pretty much lifetime supplies so just figure on $2.00 / bag for topsoil from there on out.



> Are there any irregularities with the cycling process, or will planting the tank densely take care of most issues?


No, it seems to be pretty similar to cycling a tank with new Aquasoil. If it's been mineralized thoroughly any initial ammonia release should go away in a few days. It's not uncommon to experience algae in a fresh setup, but that's true with any new setup. Once the bacteria become established in the filter and substrate in a few weeks everything will stabilize and algae will begin to fade.



> Have you noticed any effects on water parameters, or the general well-being of fish/shrimp/plants that are known to prefer softer water?


No, I haven't noticed that it adds any significant hardness to the water parameters. I keep mostly softwater fish and have cherry, yellow and amano shimp in all of my tanks.



> Finally, using the materials you presented, what's your estimate in terms of volume (in liters)?


Estimate for what? I'm not sure I follow you?


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## erijnal

Thanks for taking the time to respond to all the questions Aaron

For the volume question, I was asking for an estimate on the volume of the muddy mixture that you could potentially put together. Looks like it's a weird question though, because you end up putting topsoil on it anyway.


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## AaronT

erijnal said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond to all the questions Aaron
> 
> For the volume question, I was asking for an estimate on the volume of the muddy mixture that you could potentially put together. Looks like it's a weird question though, because you end up putting topsoil on it anyway.


Hmm...I guess I'm still a little bit confused.

The materials will last you for a LOT of tanks if that's what you are asking.

As far as how much soil to prepare when making the muddy mixture I simply estimated the volume of mud to make about a 3/4" layer in the tank I'm setting up and then figure how high to fill the mixing vessel accordingly. Does that make more sense?


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## ingg

erijnal said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond to all the questions Aaron
> 
> For the volume question, I was asking for an estimate on the volume of the muddy mixture that you could potentially put together. Looks like it's a weird question though, because you end up putting topsoil on it anyway.


You could potentially have tons of it - literally.

I had roughly 90 pounds of it (about 2 1/2 bags of topsoil in the beginning) when we set up my 180g. This is the raw mineralized soil, no additives yet.

Your main limitation is being able to add the clay into the mix effectively, I think. That 90 pounds was about the limit of what I can envision myself mixing at once, meaning mixing the dry prepared soil to the water/clay slurry. After that, you'd be talking concrete mixers to be able to mix it all up well, hehe.

Aaron, that is a really cheap price on muriate of potash! It cost me $22 for a 50 pound bag. Did find good clay sources a lot less than that, though, found some pottery supply houses - except, of course, smallest blocks I found were 25 pounds.


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## AaronT

The potash I got was not nearly a 50 lb. bag of it. You truly have a lifetime's supply. 

One other way to mix the clay is to set out the clay that you'd like to use and flatten it out a bit. Once it's dried out crush it into a powder and mix it into the soil. I believe you can also buy it in the powder form from pottery supply stores.


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## erijnal

Has anyone used a non-inert substrate to cap off the mineralized soil?

For example, let's say you use AquaSoil, or Eco-Complete, or Fluorite as the substrate cap. Would this lead to never-ending algae woes?


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## AaronT

It shouldn't pose a problem. I have my 75 gallon tank setup with Flourite Dark as a substrate cap and another with Soil Master Select as a substrate cap.


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## oldjake

looks great i have a 50 gl tank just getting things for it, how much clay to mix with the soil, thanks


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## AaronT

oldjake said:


> looks great i have a 50 gl tank just getting things for it, how much clay to mix with the soil, thanks


Great, I'm glad you were inspired. Please share your experiences with us along the way.


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## 954baby

Thanks for posting. I want to try this with my next tank. I am using aquasoil now and already like it more then eco complete.


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## AaronT

954baby said:


> Thanks for posting. I want to try this with my next tank. I am using aquasoil now and already like it more then eco complete.


I'm glad you enjoyed the article. I'm excited to see so many people trying it out.


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## oregon aqua

AaronT

Im trying to do this again after my last fiasco i think im closer but:

i have gotten some type of white type of fungus? growing on the dirt during the drying phase. Also i have gone three times drying and the soil feels......like fiber, is this the grainy texture? Or by grainy did you mean more like sand? I am started one more dunk in the water the smell is almost gone.
no picture of fungus because i clean it off but is this fungus going to cause problems?









On a side note if you remember i told you how bad it went last time and how the trees dumped pine nuts and cotton wood seeds in the dirt, well i dumper that mix and just let it sit, now their are like three trees that are growing out of it, 1 pine and 2 cotton woods LOL. the seeds never take off in the garden around here but seem to like the partly mineralized soil.


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## ingg

Shouldn't feel like fiber. Grainy as in sandy, is exactly correct.

Are you possibly using organic soil, potting soil, something like that? Fibrous is not what I think of when thinking of cheap topsoil, and cheap topsoil is what you should be mineralizing - the absolute cheapest bag you can find, the $1.50 kind of bag.

I've never seen any molding, but white mold makes sense with every high fiber content mix, it'd be the wood. Feeling like fiber sounds like there is an awfully high wood chip/pulp content in the topsoil you are using, which is why I ask what the beginning product was. 


I sift the soil at the end, and remove all the little wood chips and such - what I end up with after sifting feels like ashes almost, super fine, dust.


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## AaronT

Mold suggests to me that there are still organics in the soil. Ingg is right that it should feel sandy, not fibrous. Fibrous probably means there are lots of leaves and possible peat in the mixture. Try sifting it to see how it comes out.


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## oregon aqua

does this mean i have to start over again? can i screen the wood out? This stuff was .75cents a bag i figured that was the "cheap" top soil as it cant get much cheaper. if this stuff is trash im grabbing the shovel and headed to the forest out back and getting that soil after all the next step in cheap top soil is free top soil lol. and i can screen it before i start AGAIN. 

















edit:OMG THIS STUFF DOESNT HAVE ANY SOIL IN IT DOES IT?????????? HAVE I BEEN PLAYING IN MANURE MUD AND WOOD? FOR NO REASON ???????AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :clock::clock::clock::clock::clock::clock:

The ingreadeints list just hit me no wonder this "TOP SOIL" is so cheap....... thiers no top soil in it. just poop and wood. so gross.


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## AaronT

Yup, that's what's known as a soilless mix. It's added to the dirt from your yard or wherever to add organic materials. You need the dirt part. 

Do you have a yard or know someone with a yard that will let you dig a little bit of dirt out?


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## oregon aqua

theirs a forest behind my place. So sad! I will go get the shovel.

I try to look at the brighter side of things but all i see today is a wet pile of woody pooh. LOL


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## erijnal

I'm sorry oregon aqua, but your last two posts seriously made me laugh sooo hard. Especially the edit to your Ingredients post


That sucks man. The mineralized soil sounds really promising, but if I found out that the soil I was wetting and drying for the past week and a half was actually not soil.. I'd be pretty discouraged

Good luck!!!


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## Castaic Fisherman

erijnal said:


> Has anyone used a non-inert substrate to cap off the mineralized soil?
> 
> For example, let's say you use AquaSoil, or Eco-Complete, or Fluorite as the substrate cap. Would this lead to never-ending algae woes?


I'm using Flourite Black Sand as a cap since I already had some on-hand. I'm waiting on my plants to arrive so I can see how everything works out.


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## Castaic Fisherman

oldjake said:


> looks great i have a 50 gl tank just getting things for it, how much clay to mix with the soil, thanks


I ended up with a mix of 2 lbs montmorillite clay and about 6 lbs of soil. I'm heavier in clay than the recipe but it should work fine. I'll know in about one week when my plants arrive. BTW, I used about 1/2 of the mix for my 12 gallon tank.


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## torpedobarb

I am going to have to take a stab at this soon.. like I said in the other thread.. I am totally inspired to do this. great article Aaron


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## AaronT

torpedobarb said:


> I am going to have to take a stab at this soon.. like I said in the other thread.. I am totally inspired to do this. great article Aaron


Thanks.  Let me know if you need any help along the way.


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## torpedobarb

hey Aaron... can you give me a link to where you got your clay and potash? the others I can find locally. I started the mineralizing process of the soil. I have 2 bags of soil soaking for the second time in 2 separate containers. I mixed the soil up well breaking up all of the large balls of dirt prior to adding the water. I mixed it up good when I added the water as to make it all saturated. for my 75 gallon.. how many lbs of top soil should I need? TIA Ken


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## cah925

I'm having trouble finding dolomite. Is this a necessary ingredient, is there a substitute? I've tried several aquatic/marine stores/websites and can't find it.


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## hooha

Aaron is away on vacation, but I can try to help you guys out in the meantime until he gets back 

If you can find crushed coral, you can crush it more and use that as the source of Calcium carbonate (i.e. dolomite).

Aaron found all his stuff locally iirc, but he may have links for possible places when he gets back. For a 75 gallon tank, mineralizing a 40lb bag of topsoil would be a good start.


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## torpedobarb

I have started to mineralize 2 40lb bags as of now. I will have to get some of the crushed coral as well. thanks for the help!


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## AaronT

Hey folks. I'm back from the beach. Send me a PM and I can help you out with the materials to get you started. I've still got a pretty good supply.


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## bpimm

Aaron,

What do you see as the difference between your process and just using topsoil dug up from the yard? the rain wets the soil and the sun dries it repeatedly. Just curious I have always used topsoil in my tanks for the last 20 years but this process sounds interesting and I'm going to try it soon. 

Also on the need for added K, What about finding a source of potash still in a large chunk, place it in the tank and let it slowly dissolve? It may take a few tries to get the right amount. I have always shrived to have tanks that do not need to be messed with on a regular basis, That's why I have never dosed ferts in a tank, I know I will skip them and the tank will crash. 

Brian


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## DonaldmBoyer

Aaron---

Very interesting write up! I am intrigued! I was wondering why you discourage the use of peat? Couldn't you put a fine (very fine and post-boiled) layer of it down during the dolomite/potash phase prior to adding the clay/soil mixture? Wouldn't this help to soften the water and reduce the pH a touch? 

You could just filter water through boiled peat, but I am confused a bit by the purposeful "lack of initial" organics. Would this be due to the fact of a potential algal bloom then?


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## hooha

in my experience, the original algal bloom lasts almost 2 months if you add some peat.


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## cah925

What will this process do to the water params?


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## AaronT

It doesn't change them as far as I know. Honestly, I don't really test my water much, but the last time I did it was pretty close to the tap.


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## richard901

oregon aqua said:


> does this mean i have to start over again? can i screen the wood out? This stuff was .75cents a bag i figured that was the "cheap" top soil as it cant get much cheaper. if this stuff is trash im grabbing the shovel and headed to the forest out back and getting that soil after all the next step in cheap top soil is free top soil lol. and i can screen it before i start AGAIN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit:OMG THIS STUFF DOESNT HAVE ANY SOIL IN IT DOES IT?????????? HAVE I BEEN PLAYING IN MANURE MUD AND WOOD? FOR NO REASON ???????AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :clock::clock::clock::clock::clock::clock:
> 
> The ingreadeints list just hit me no wonder this "TOP SOIL" is so cheap....... thiers no top soil in it. just poop and wood. so gross.


I laughed pretty hard!

I bought top soil from homer depot and all it was, sand and mulch; I strained most of the heavy particulates and I ended up with pure sand.. dissapointing... 
Than I decided to dig up some old fashioned soil in the back yard, heavy, mud-making stuff that worms crawl in. I followed the procedure, but I took it a step further and used a large kitchen strainer to remove all but the smallest pieces of particulates. In the end, I ended up with "black water" and let it settle for a few weeks. Some of the finest mud ever! then let it dry, wet again, etc. and all in all, it feels like a a bed of thick foamy sponge beneath the gravely sand I layed on top. plants love it and roors really start growing in the substrate!


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## oregon aqua

> I laughed pretty hard!
> 
> I bought top soil from homer depot and all it was, sand and mulch; I strained most of the heavy particulates and I ended up with pure sand.. dissapointing...
> Than I decided to dig up some old fashioned soil in the back yard, heavy, mud-making stuff that worms crawl in. I followed the procedure, but I took it a step further and used a large kitchen strainer to remove all but the smallest pieces of particulates. In the end, I ended up with "black water" and let it settle for a few weeks. Some of the finest mud ever! then let it dry, wet again, etc. and all in all, it feels like a a bed of thick foamy sponge beneath the gravely sand I layed on top. plants love it and roors really start growing in the substrate!


Im happy i could make you laugh. I also hope people learned to check the bag for whats actually in it. On the bright side im using it to grow some emrsed plants outside it works pretty good lol.


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## KraKen

I thought I'd point out that Muriate of potash is just an archaic term for potassium chloride.


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## mgarone

This is very intriguing and I am hoping to use this method for my new 29 gallon tank. I was just wondering if you could store the mineralized soil in plastic bags maybe? I am in college and my apartment has no backyard or hose for that matter. I am heading home for a break and was just wondering if I could do it at home and store it to bring back with me? If anyone knows anything about that I would appreciate some insight. Thanks.


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## AaronT

mgarone said:


> This is very intriguing and I am hoping to use this method for my new 29 gallon tank. I was just wondering if you could store the mineralized soil in plastic bags maybe? I am in college and my apartment has no backyard or hose for that matter. I am heading home for a break and was just wondering if I could do it at home and store it to bring back with me? If anyone knows anything about that I would appreciate some insight. Thanks.


Sure, there's no reason you can't keep it in bags, buckets or any other type of container.


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## mgarone

awesome! thank you!


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## cah925

Does anyone have any extra dolomite they could part with?


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## gasteriaphile

*Mineralized Soil Substrate & dolomite*



cah925 said:


> Does anyone have any extra dolomite they could part with?


Just keep in mind that the dolomite is for those folks with water that is too acidic! Not everyone needs dolomite. Out here in the Western U.S.A. most of our soils and water is basic, i.e. alkaline, i.e. high pH. Check your water's pH first before automatically adding dolomite. FWIW, Breck


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## bonklers

Does it help/speed up the process when blowing a computer fan over it? I guess it would aerate the soil some more and evaporate the water faster, right?


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## AaronT

bonklers said:


> Does it help/speed up the process when blowing a computer fan over it? I guess it would aerate the soil some more and evaporate the water faster, right?


I can't see that helping all that much. Patience is really what gets the job done.


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## SnyperP

Interesting! I've heard of mineralized soil before, but I don't believe I've heard the part of using clay in there. Any idea if thise would work as a substrate for emersed setups? Another question I have is regarding nutrients in the water column. Are there nutrients available in the water column for non rooted plants such as mosses or pellias?


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## AaronT

SnyperP said:


> Interesting! I've heard of mineralized soil before, but I don't believe I've heard the part of using clay in there. Any idea if thise would work as a substrate for emersed setups? Another question I have is regarding nutrients in the water column. Are there nutrients available in the water column for non rooted plants such as mosses or pellias?


There's enough nutrients in the water column released by the plants themselves and the fauna in the tank to keep any epiphytes happy.

I am using this substrate in many of my emersed pots right now and it works great.


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## SnyperP

Thanks for the quick rely Aaron. It's a bit cold here now so I guess i should start minearlizing the top soil. I'll try it out with an emersed setup first. 

Wish me luck =p


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## AaronT

Good luck!


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## Manthalynn

I'm really looking forward to trying this. Of course, we're getting our two weeks of rain right now, so I'll have to wait to dry it out. 

I also appreciate how well written your instructions were. Wonderful!

Speaking as a horticulture student, I wanted to add a few words of caution or advice on comments I saw.

Muriate of potash is a common term in agriculture. We dose it on our orchards and soils a lot. It may have meant something technical a lot time ago (like a food Calorie = 1,000 heat calories) but for us Aggies, it's just something you dose with.

Dolomite should be readily found at any hardware store or garden center.

When digging up soil from a forest, if it's a pine forest, make sure to start digging below the layer of pine needles. Also keep in mind that pine forest soil is usually very acidic.

Thanks again for the wonderful article!


----------



## AaronT

Manthalynn said:


> I'm really looking forward to trying this. Of course, we're getting our two weeks of rain right now, so I'll have to wait to dry it out.
> 
> I also appreciate how well written your instructions were. Wonderful!
> 
> Speaking as a horticulture student, I wanted to add a few words of caution or advice on comments I saw.
> 
> Muriate of potash is a common term in agriculture. We dose it on our orchards and soils a lot. It may have meant something technical a lot time ago (like a food Calorie = 1,000 heat calories) but for us Aggies, it's just something you dose with.
> 
> Dolomite should be readily found at any hardware store or garden center.
> 
> When digging up soil from a forest, if it's a pine forest, make sure to start digging below the layer of pine needles. Also keep in mind that pine forest soil is usually very acidic.
> 
> Thanks again for the wonderful article!


Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. You can thank my lovely wife for editing well for easy reading. 

Yes, Muriate of potash is sort of a general term. In this case we're after KCL or potassium chloride.

The dolomite often found at garden centers is not always the same thing. A lot of times it has additives and such that we should avoid. We're looking for it in the crystal form as seen in this picture.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomite

Yes, definitely dig down a bit if you're going to use soil from your own yard.

Good luck!


----------



## Manthalynn

AaronT said:


> You can thank my lovely wife for editing well for easy reading.


Very nice!



> The dolomite often found at garden centers is not always the same thing. A lot of times it has additives and such that we should avoid. We're looking for it in the crystal form as seen in this picture.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomite


Good to know! Thank you!


----------



## Technica

Thanks for the article.

I'm wondering if potassium sulfate be substituted for posassium chloride? I already have some potassium sulfate handy.


----------



## michu

After reading the following information:


> Muriate of Potash: It's odd how this old-fashioned name remains in use! Muriate comes from Muria, the Latin for brine. Muriate of potash is potassium chloride containing between 50 and 60 per cent potash. It was deposited eons ago by ancient seas and should be considered a natural product, blessed by organocultists, but it is not. Its chlorine content passes off rapidly when applied to soil. As explained under soil organisms, however, muriate of potash is harmful to certain beneficial bacteria. Some authorities think sulfate of potash makes a better potash fertilizer.


 http://www.improve-your-garden-soil.com/potassium-and-soil-potash-fertilizer.html

I'm a little concerned about the potash. Is there any truth to this?


----------



## hooha

chloride and chlorine are not the same things...I really don't think that site knows what they are talking about.....


----------



## michu

Thanks. I picked up the potash today.


----------



## _PhanToM_

Hi, 

I would like to say thank you for such a detailed post. I'm new to planted tanks and this is by far the most helpful site I've seen. 

I'm about to give the top soil a try, but i was unable to find the 2 items listed below. 


• Dolomite (I bought Dolomite for orchids at Bunnings-then found out I shouldn't be using it..)
• Muriate of potash (found some at bunnings as well but it is in a packet of soil)

Does anyone know where in melbourne-aus, I can get these from?

Also the Top soil I bought has something called a "Wet agent" can i still use that?


----------



## Technics

Hi _PhanToM_,

I'm in Brisbane-aus and couldn't find any suitable soil in bags at the Bunnings here. It all contains wetting agent, mulch and fertilizer. In the end I went to a local landscaping supplier and bought plain top soil. It's grey with a sandy texture and looks like the stuff in the article.

Dolomite should be available at K-mart etc. Why don't you think you should be using the one you bought for orchids?

I'm going to substitute Sulfate of Postash(K2SO4) for the Muriate of Potash(KCl) unless someone can come up with a downside. I've used it previously in my tanks as an ingredient in liquid fertilizer and nothing has died so far . I can't see why it would cause any harm and the chloride in the KCl won't be providing any benefit while the sulfur can be used by the plants. The Muriate of Potash doesnt seem to be readily available here in any case.

I won't be going nuts with either the dolomite or potash. Just a little sprinkle.


----------



## _PhanToM_

Hi Technics

The reason I dont think I should be using Dolomite from a garden store is because I read a reply on this thread.. it said.


> The dolomite often found at garden centers is not always the same thing. A lot of times it has additives and such that we should avoid. We're looking for it in the crystal form as seen in this picture.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomite


Thanks for your response I will be going to K-mart tomorrow and will go look for top soil that doesn't contains "wet agent".


----------



## Hedgie

I searched all over Adelaide for top soil in bags and no one had any. Bunnings sell top-soil but you'll need to speak to someone there about it. They usually have a little sample shelf near the outdoor section.


----------



## oregon aqua

Muriate of Potash is a old fashion name it is also known as; Potassium Chloride; Potassium Muriate; Potassium Monochloride.

soil with wetting agents in it is probably not going to work. Most agents work by eating through the waxy build up on the soil to allow the water to pass through easier. But they also can eat the waxy protective layer on roots, leaves and new stems, damaging plants. Wetting agents are used more in desert areas where water is more short supply. 

maybe you could just grab a shovel, that's what i had to do in the end as i could never find just regular top soil. :brick:


----------



## Technics

oregon aqua said:


> Wetting agents are used more in desert areas where water is more short supply.


This pretty much describes the whole of Australia .

Some of the chemicals readily available here seem to vary. This, I assume, is because what is sold is what is produced locally. The dolomite sold here does look different to what is shown in the wikipedia entry but it is the only thing available as far as I'm aware. It should still be mostly calcium magnesium carbonate.

I found some plain soil without the additives and I'm going to try this using what I can get my hands on. I don't see why some substitution would be a problem. The original recipe doesn't exactly call for you to pull out the scales and precisely weigh everything.


----------



## _PhanToM_

well then I better grab a shovel too. I don't have much of a garden where I live, lets hope there is a park somewhere close by and I don't get arrested. LOL. 

Imagine explaining that to the police, "but it's for my tank."

Thanks for all your replies, Will give this a try and post some pics up in a few weeks.


----------



## Cliff Mayes

Do not do anything illegal! For the small cost it ain't worth it. Go to a Nursery or Landscaping place and ask.


----------



## Laura

Thanks very much for your article, I look forward to trying this. I have a question as to which pottery clay is better. When I've taken pottery courses, we've had access to 2 types of clay, a reddish brown one and a light grey one. It sounds from reading the posts that you've preferred the red one - is that correct, or do you think it will make a difference?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


----------



## _PhanToM_

Hi Cliff Mayes

I was not serious when I said I would go to a park. 
instead I went to a friend's house and dug up a small section of his garden


----------



## Manthalynn

_PhanToM_ said:


> Imagine explaining that to the police, "but it's for my tank."


Hehe, this is exactly what went through my mind when I called my cousin in construction. "Can I come to your work site and dig up some soil?" "Um, sure...but _why?_" "It's for my fish tank!" I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees the humor in this!


----------



## NeonFlux

This is my recent 10 gallon setup, AaronT. Just a couple questions, will growth be as fast as if you were water column dosing? With a lot of co2 and high light. By the way, how do you measure out 0.5 ppm of potassium to dose after the potassium source has run out on my 10 gallon? Thanks Aaron!


----------



## pminister

Awesome article Aaron, guess my hopes arent up when i got overwhelmed into planted tank. Especially the after math of setting one up, with the idea of dosing etc etc.........n the cost factor.

I definitely will give this method a try, with my low-tech setup hopefully it will provide some beneficial growth for some of the fauna in my tank. And not make some of look brown, or leaves that are curling.

Anyhooo few questions:

1. Dolomite ? Is this important to add during the initial setup ?

Reason i am asking i saw a reply in here, saying


gasteriaphile said:


> Just keep in mind that the dolomite is for those folks with water that is too acidic! Not everyone needs dolomite. Out here in the Western U.S.A. most of our soils and water is basic, i.e. alkaline, i.e. high pH. Check your water's pH first before automatically adding dolomite. FWIW, Breck


Out here in Ontario, Canada the water isnt acidic at all, just stays are neutral 7.6ppm

2. Through this method would be a good idea to vacuum the gravel or not ?

3. Would this method also create a form of anerobic state, at the wee bottom layer ?

4. How far down should the plants be put into the gravel for those that require too ?

Thanks In Advanced,
-Seb


----------



## _PhanToM_

Hi guys, 
I now have a 20l tank set up to with top soil, white sand, I’ve followed every step of the guide and included a DIY Co2 system. It's been about a month and the riccia is starting to look good. 
However, the GH and KH has increase substantially, it was so high that it fell of my chart from the test kit, could this be happening because I had put in too much dolomite or potassium? The water is also looking a little yellowish and the ammonia level is over 1.5. 
I am planning to do a full water change today, any advice on this is appreciated as I am a noob at plant keeping.


----------



## AaronT

It could be the white sand adding hardness to your water. I always had relatively soft water at my old residence and never had issues with the soil raising the hardness substantially. 

The ammonia will level out eventually. The yellowish water could be the start of a green water bloom. I've gone through a few of those and they eventually run their course once the tank settles in fully. A few more weeks and it should be well cycled.


----------



## d_golem

Hi Aaron,

I've read your entire thread and it's been very inspiring. My next tank is going to be using this method.

I have a few questions though:
I've just bought a bag of ordinary terracotta clay from an arts & crafts shop. I'm sure it's plain, ordinary clay but the colour is a bit paler (more yellowish) than the one in your first post. Do you think this is because of the lower iron content and if it is so, do you think it's still ok to use this clay? What do you think about refined clay, DAS clay or air-dried clay?

Thx heaps


----------



## AaronT

d_golem said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I've read your entire thread and it's been very inspiring. My next tank is going to be using this method.
> 
> I have a few questions though:
> I've just bought a bag of ordinary terracotta clay from an arts & crafts shop. I'm sure it's plain, ordinary clay but the colour is a bit paler (more yellowish) than the one in your first post. Do you think this is because of the lower iron content and if it is so, do you think it's still ok to use this clay? What do you think about refined clay, DAS clay or air-dried clay?
> 
> Thx heaps


The gray / yellowish clays are fine to use too. Good luck!


----------



## d_golem

That's good then.

One more question, Aaron. Do I need to wait 1-2 days each time I re-soak the soil? Or is it ok just to introduce water to the soil, stir it around really well, then lay it out on the tarp straight away to dry?

Thx mate


----------



## totziens

Thank you for the very comprehensive article. I find the information very helpful.


----------



## AaronT

d_golem said:


> That's good then.
> 
> One more question, Aaron. Do I need to wait 1-2 days each time I re-soak the soil? Or is it ok just to introduce water to the soil, stir it around really well, then lay it out on the tarp straight away to dry?
> 
> Thx mate


Sorry I'm just responding now, this must have slipped past me.

The reason for the soaking phase is to "rinse" any fertilizers or pesticides or any other chemicals that might be present in the soil. If you're comfortable that those are in the soil you are using you can just wet the soil down again and let it dry. I would still stir it around a bit to make sure it all gets exposed to the air.


----------



## AaronT

totziens said:


> Thank you for the very comprehensive article. I find the information very helpful.


Thank you. I'm glad so many people are having success with it.


----------



## Dogg76

Could you have MTS in a tank with this substrate? Or is that a no no?


----------



## AaronT

Dogg76 said:


> Could you have MTS in a tank with this substrate? Or is that a no no?


Sure, that shouldn't be a problem that I can see.


----------



## Forgotten Path

Hey, great thread!

Has anyone used Miracle Grow Organic Choice as the base for mineralized soil? Or does it just have too much organic material? The reason I ask is because I have a bag lying around and I'm cheap.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

would it be ok to add aquasoil with this... Im only adding it cuz I like the amazonia color


----------



## jaidexl

Knotty,



erijnal said:


> Has anyone used a non-inert substrate to cap off the mineralized soil?
> 
> For example, let's say you use AquaSoil, or Eco-Complete, or Fluorite as the substrate cap. Would this lead to never-ending algae woes?
> 
> 
> AaronT said:
> 
> 
> 
> It shouldn't pose a problem. I have my 75 gallon tank setup with Flourite Dark as a substrate cap and another with Soil Master Select as a substrate cap.
Click to expand...

I would just be sure to do lots of water changes in the first few weeks and use plenty of stems, nitrogen will probably be pouring out. Easy on the light, heavy CO2 if possible.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Would it make sense if I did a little less mineralized soil, like 1/2 or 2/3 the recommended amount, then a layer of gravel, then aquasoil?


----------



## AaronT

Knotty Bitz said:


> Would it make sense if I did a little less mineralized soil, like 1/2 or 2/3 the recommended amount, then a layer of gravel, then aquasoil?


Why?


----------



## Knotty Bitz

I like the color of the aquasoil and if I use it I dont want to have to much nitrates, so I would cut back on the soil.


----------



## AaronT

Just use the Aquasoil then. The nitrates don't last long if you don't use the Powersand, which would be replaced by the mineralized soil in this case.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Would it be a bad idea to use a layer of gravel. Im only doing it because aquasoil costs alot with shipping and everything.


----------



## AaronT

Knotty Bitz said:


> Would it be a bad idea to use a layer of gravel. Im only doing it because aquasoil costs alot with shipping and everything.


If your reasoning for using the Aquasoil is aesthetic then yes it is a bad idea. Over time the two gravels will mix together and won't be very attractive.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Would eco-complete be a good substitute for the gravel?


----------



## AaronT

Knotty Bitz said:


> Would eco-complete be a good substitute for the gravel?


Sure, you can use any cap you like. Be forewarned that Eco Complete adds significant hardness to the water column.


----------



## disvegas

Aaron,

I've deicded to transform my bore-looking, bare bottom 150g discus tank into a planted one. And I would like to use your method for the mineralized soil as substrate for the plants. Is there a way to calculate the amount of topsoil/clay, say, per 10g? Thanks.


disvegas,


----------



## BTLee

Dear Aaron,

First of all, thanks for sharing such an informative article on the subject.
In fact your article was quoted in a Malaysian based Planted Tank forum and it has attracted a lot of attention and encouraged many to try out the said process.

I have a some related questions on the subject of DIY substrate and I hope your experience will be helpful.

In my locality, laterite ( locally called 'red earth' and which I belief is the Clay you mentioned ) is readily available.
A few of the local hobbyist including me is also toying with the idea of using this laterite as the primary substrate for our planted tank.
What do you think, if we mix this laterite ( without top soil ) with some fine gravel/course sand and use the mixture as the bottom substrate then, ( to prevent excessive clouding of water ), top this bottom substrate with another layer of pure fine gravel/course sand.

I also assume that using this laterite, we do not have to mineralize it the way we use top soil instead.

Your comment and recommendation is highly appreciated.

Rgds

BT Lee


----------



## AaronT

disvegas said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I've deicded to transform my bore-looking, bare bottom 150g discus tank into a planted one. And I would like to use your method for the mineralized soil as substrate for the plants. Is there a way to calculate the amount of topsoil/clay, say, per 10g? Thanks.
> 
> disvegas,


What size is the bottom of the tank? You can't really go by gallons because some tanks are taller, etc...

For my 50 gallon breeder w/ a 36" x 18" bottom I used 1 bag of topsoil mineralized and sifted, 1 lb. of clay and just enough potash and dolomite to sprinkle the bottom, but still see through the glass.


----------



## AaronT

BTLee said:


> Dear Aaron,
> 
> First of all, thanks for sharing such an informative article on the subject.
> In fact your article was quoted in a Malaysian based Planted Tank forum and it has attracted a lot of attention and encouraged many to try out the said process.
> 
> I have a some related questions on the subject of DIY substrate and I hope your experience will be helpful.
> 
> In my locality, laterite ( locally called 'red earth' and which I belief is the Clay you mentioned ) is readily available.
> A few of the local hobbyist including me is also toying with the idea of using this laterite as the primary substrate for our planted tank.
> What do you think, if we mix this laterite ( without top soil ) with some fine gravel/course sand and use the mixture as the bottom substrate then, ( to prevent excessive clouding of water ), top this bottom substrate with another layer of pure fine gravel/course sand.
> 
> I also assume that using this laterite, we do not have to mineralize it the way we use top soil instead.
> 
> Your comment and recommendation is highly appreciated.
> 
> Rgds
> 
> BT Lee


BT Lee,

That's neat to know it's spread globally. Again though, it was never my idea to begin with. I just wrote the article. The idea was first introduced to me by a friend of mine in my local club.

The laterite is an excellent substitute for the clay in the minerzalized soil "recipe." However, it doesn't have the nutrients that the topsoil does. Also using too much clay has been known to cause cloudy water and algae issues. You just want the soil to have a 5-10% clay content. It's just enough to provide good flocculation to allow the soil to settle out of suspension when plants are moved around and to bind nutrients in the soil.

Is topsoil hard to find or expensive? I just buy my topsoil for about $2.00 USD / bag.


----------



## BTLee

Dear Aaron,

Thanks for the prompt response and the good direction.

I suppose the reason for assumming the use laterite only without top soil is due to my misunderstanding of the term and nature 'top soil'.

Although 'Gardening Soil' is easily availiable in garden supplies shops ( they cost about US$1/= for each 5 liter bag ), in our local community, garden supplies outlet are typically small businesses and the use of local language is the norm.
As such, I was unsure if the soil typically used for gardening is the right 'top soil' we should be using.
Another concern is the uncertainty of foreign matter and thus possible toxicity in such gardening soil.
( in fact, some of the hobbyist has already statred their experiment with 100% laterite recently, hahaha )
One other reason that lead us to assume use of 100% laterite is because we read that laterite is rich in Iron, an important mineral that is hard to obtain on a DIY basis.

Anyway, your latest response has cleared up this matter, thanks again.

Since we are on the subject of substrate, may I ask for your comment for my following idea :-

I have a 5 ft tank that has a foot print of 150 cm X 60 cm.
In our local community ADA soil has been a highly recommended choice of substrate.
However considering the size of my tank and the cost of the ADA soil, I reckon I will need about 80 litre of it and it will cost me around US$250/= for the ADA soil alone.
I am wondering if its worth the trouble if I were to use say a mixture of laterite ( this should provide a long term source of Iron ) and sand for the bottom layer of substrate ( especially the back portion to build up height ). 
Then, to minimise clouding of water during future replanting / maintenance work, top up this bottom layer with a layer ( say 2.5 cm ) of clean sand.
Then, for good measure, lay a thin layer ( say 2.5 cm ) of ADA soil on top of this layer of sand.
Oh, I also hear that there is this '5 Elements' sort of chemical from ADA that is typically laid at the bottom of the substrate to give them long term benefit.
I will consider using them as well.

Again, in the above proposal, do you think it is necessary to mix mineralized top soil to the said laterite bottom layer?

Your comment is highly appreciated.

Cheers!

BT Lee


----------



## disvegas

Thanks AaronT. My tank's bottom is 18" x 72" and the height is 24".



AaronT said:


> What size is the bottom of the tank? You can't really go by gallons because some tanks are taller, etc...
> 
> For my 50 gallon breeder w/ a 36" x 18" bottom I used 1 bag of topsoil mineralized and sifted, 1 lb. of clay and just enough potash and dolomite to sprinkle the bottom, but still see through the glass.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Should I get rid of the peices of wood that are in my top soil. There is some that floats to the top when I am soaking it.


----------



## airsong

Ok, I need to know where to start lookin. 

Where do you guys get your Muriate of Potash?


----------



## AaronT

Knotty Bitz said:


> Should I get rid of the peices of wood that are in my top soil. There is some that floats to the top when I am soaking it.


Yes, you can screen the soil once it is dried out.


----------



## AaronT

BTLee said:


> Dear Aaron,
> 
> Thanks for the prompt response and the good direction.
> 
> I suppose the reason for assumming the use laterite only without top soil is due to my misunderstanding of the term and nature 'top soil'.
> 
> Although 'Gardening Soil' is easily availiable in garden supplies shops ( they cost about US$1/= for each 5 liter bag ), in our local community, garden supplies outlet are typically small businesses and the use of local language is the norm.
> As such, I was unsure if the soil typically used for gardening is the right 'top soil' we should be using.
> Another concern is the uncertainty of foreign matter and thus possible toxicity in such gardening soil.
> ( in fact, some of the hobbyist has already statred their experiment with 100% laterite recently, hahaha )
> One other reason that lead us to assume use of 100% laterite is because we read that laterite is rich in Iron, an important mineral that is hard to obtain on a DIY basis.
> 
> Anyway, your latest response has cleared up this matter, thanks again.
> 
> Since we are on the subject of substrate, may I ask for your comment for my following idea :-
> 
> I have a 5 ft tank that has a foot print of 150 cm X 60 cm.
> In our local community ADA soil has been a highly recommended choice of substrate.
> However considering the size of my tank and the cost of the ADA soil, I reckon I will need about 80 litre of it and it will cost me around US$250/= for the ADA soil alone.
> I am wondering if its worth the trouble if I were to use say a mixture of laterite ( this should provide a long term source of Iron ) and sand for the bottom layer of substrate ( especially the back portion to build up height ).
> Then, to minimise clouding of water during future replanting / maintenance work, top up this bottom layer with a layer ( say 2.5 cm ) of clean sand.
> Then, for good measure, lay a thin layer ( say 2.5 cm ) of ADA soil on top of this layer of sand.
> Oh, I also hear that there is this '5 Elements' sort of chemical from ADA that is typically laid at the bottom of the substrate to give them long term benefit.
> I will consider using them as well.
> 
> Again, in the above proposal, do you think it is necessary to mix mineralized top soil to the said laterite bottom layer?
> 
> Your comment is highly appreciated.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> BT Lee


People have been using laterite as a low substrate for decades. It does help, but you will still need to dose the water column with macronutrients. If you choose to use mineralized topsoil in addition to the laterite the need for dosing lessens dramatically. Topsoil is the top fertile layer of soil.


----------



## AaronT

disvegas said:


> Thanks AaronT. My tank's bottom is 18" x 72" and the height is 24".


You'll need 2-3 bags of of topsoil for a tank that size.


----------



## AaronT

airsong said:


> Ok, I need to know where to start lookin.
> 
> Where do you guys get your Muriate of Potash?


www.oregonaqua.com


----------



## BTLee

AaronT said:


> People have been using laterite as a low substrate for decades. It does help, but you will still need to dose the water column with macronutrients. If you choose to use mineralized topsoil in addition to the laterite the need for dosing lessens dramatically. Topsoil is the top fertile layer of soil.


Dear Aaron,

Thanks for your response and advise.

You have certainly clarify a lot of doubt and help me understand the issue much better.

Just a little side tracking&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Before going into planted tank, I used to keep a lot of fish in my 2 5 foot tanks.
I feed them heavily ( mainly large discus and crown loaches ) with pork heart meal.
To keep the water reasonably low in nitrate ( I have a 3.5 ft sump biological filter to take care of ammonia and nitrite ) I have a continuous flow arrangement to pump out about 500 liter of water each 24hr and replace it with tap water with a float valve connected to the tap water inlet to the sump.
With that, I found that I am able to maintain NO3 level at about 20 ppm ( no plant ) without any other water change regime ( more than 1 year now ) and the arrangement has been so convenient and maintenance free.

When I convert one of these tank to planted tank months ago, I was told I need to maintain proper level of water column fertilization ( macro, micro and TE ) and I have to stop the automatic water change system because I believe the continuous flow system will lead to high lost in these water column fertilizer.

But without the continuous flow system and the high fish load ( and heavy feeding, hahaha, I just cannot resist that ), I have problem with BBA which I think is due to high phosphate level arising from the fish load and feeding.

With a little twist of luck, I have just found a very cheap local supply of various fertilizer and minerals ( K2SO4, chelated Fe and trace elements that is phosphate free ) for hydroponic gardening.
I believe I can put these micro nutrients into gelatin capsules and embed them into the substrate for slow release as well as enrich the water column by dosing directly with litter consideration of cost.

With that in mind, I intend to restart the continuous water change system to minimize the phosphate level and hope that this will lead to less BBA problem.

As always, your comment and advise appreciated.

Cheers!
BT Lee


----------



## disvegas

Thanks again AaronT. I will post some pic in the near future of my new setup. It's going to be pressurized co2, diy light and lots of plants, discus, school fish, plecos, cories and maybe loaches.



AaronT said:


> You'll need 2-3 bags of of topsoil for a tank that size.


----------



## ingg

Calculate it for tank floor size, not gallons.

I used 2 - 2 1/2 bags of topsoil in my 180g, 6x2 footprint. I used about a bag of topsoil in my 75g.

So a bag of topsoil was getting me about 5-6 square feet of tank floor.


----------



## disvegas

Thanks Ingg for your input. One question for you and Aaron though, is there such as a thing as putting too much substrate? If I filled my tank with 1in to 11/2 in thick of substrate, would that be too much?



ingg said:


> Calculate it for tank floor size, not gallons.
> 
> I used 2 - 2 1/2 bags of topsoil in my 180g, 6x2 footprint. I used about a bag of topsoil in my 75g.
> 
> So a bag of topsoil was getting me about 5-6 square feet of tank floor.


----------



## airsong

AaronT said:


> www.oregonaqua.com


thank you!


----------



## Knotty Bitz

What do I do about the small pieces of wood that would not come out when I sift. Should I just scoop them up when they float up in the water.


----------



## hooha

disvegas said:


> Thanks Ingg for your input. One question for you and Aaron though, is there such as a thing as putting too much substrate? If I filled my tank with 1in to 11/2 in thick of substrate, would that be too much?


If the soil portion gets too deep, you run the risk of getting an anaerobic pocket in the substrate.....whether 1-1 1/2 inches is 'too deep' I'll leave that answer to the other guys


----------



## hooha

Knotty Bitz said:


> What do I do about the small pieces of wood that would not come out when I sift. Should I just scoop them up when they float up in the water.


that'll work well


----------



## hooha

Aaargh! fyi, if you leave a container of mineralzed soil open, a cat _will_ use it as a litter box!!


----------



## AaronT

disvegas said:


> Thanks Ingg for your input. One question for you and Aaron though, is there such as a thing as putting too much substrate? If I filled my tank with 1in to 11/2 in thick of substrate, would that be too much?


Keep it around an inch deep and you'll be just fine.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Why is it that I started with an entire bag of topsoil, now it seems like I have less than half?


----------



## gravy9

That's because the organic stuff breaks down into minerals. That said, the soild would be denser that before.


----------



## Jane in Upton

Hi Aaron,

what an Excellent writeup of this methodology, and great How-To instructions!

Since you said "It is still possible to use pressurized CO2 and high lighting with this method of fertilization.", I'm wondering if this would be a good substrate for an "El Natural" or Walstad-type setup? I know its recommended to allow the plain garden soil to be open to the air for a bit before using it in a Walstad-style tank. The reason cited is so that any organic matter in the process of breaking down will off-gas the ammonia before submerging it. 

And, this goes in line with the consensus that using a soil layer that is too high in organics causes algae problems. So this method has me very intrigued!

That said, do you know of examples of folks using either natural lighting or moderate lighting and not supplementing CO2 with this substrate? How are their results? Has anyone been using higher light without CO2, and if so, how are those results?

This really interests me because on several of my low-tech tanks, after the initial year or more, I've been able to pump up the light and grow more light-demanding plants. Given this mineralized soil idea, this sort of makes sense to me now. Of course, the growth rate will not be the same as with CO2 added, but if carbon dioxide is the limiting factor, would the plants still get by without water column dosing in this setup. 

This is really intriguing. I just KNEW there was a reason I hadn't re-set-up one of my tanks yet. I think I'll give this a try.

Thanks again for a great How-To!
-Jane


----------



## AaronT

Hey Jane,

I'm glad you enjoyed the article. I know of several people who use this method on lower tech tanks and it works wonderfully. 

Give it a shot and I think you'll be pleased with the results.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

What should the dimensions for the area of mineralized soil be if my tank is 48 inches by 18 inches?


----------



## Jane in Upton

hooha said:


> Aaargh! fyi, if you leave a container of mineralzed soil open, a cat _will_ use it as a litter box!!


Eeeeew! That's NOT a recommended form of fertilizer, it'll cause an ammonia spike for sure, LOL!

Guess he/she thought you were bringing the great outdoors inside, to help them have a more natural experience :roll:


----------



## Scotty

What would be a total start to finish time for a 120gal, and how many lbs. should I need?? 


Thank you

Scott


----------



## Sunstar

I am trying this on a small 1.5 gallon tank. Haven't decided what the cap will be though.


----------



## AaronT

skonoski said:


> What would be a total start to finish time for a 120gal, and how many lbs. should I need??
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Scott


Start to finish time varies. In the summer months it takes about 2-3 weeks to mineralize the soil well.

I would think three 40 lb. bags of soil would be good. You'll want to use about 2-3 pounds of clay with that. I always eyeball the dolomite and potash. I just sprinkle it on until it covers the bottom like in the pictures.


----------



## Rastaman

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for posting this article. I found it useful for setting up my 560l tank in April last year. Well, i do it a bit different... I have used some kind of clay soil mixed with the Aquaclay ground - Commercial inert substrate, some kind of volcanic gravel coated with clay. 
I have used it as bottom layer with ADA Clear super and Bacter 100. I also add a thin layer of potting soil on top. After more then a year it is still good for growing plants. :wink:

  

Cheers


----------



## geelee

hello Aaron 
in step 1. you avoid peat moss and Vermiculite in topsoil.
but T2CHATTO setup ,use topsoil rich in peat moss: ( http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11805 ) "Soilrite is a mixture of Canadian Peat Moss, Vermiculite and Solirite. Vermicules are kind of volcanic ash and famous for its very high ECE. "

why you avoid peat moss and Vermiculite ?

Gellert


----------



## ecotanker

Thanks Aaron for this how-to! I am definitely interested in trying this out. 

I have a question for those who have use this system for a long time. How long do the substrate last before the fertilizers in the soil need replenishing? 

Thanks.

Max


----------



## nokturnalkid

Hey aaron,

Looks like's I might try this on a low tech tank I'm setting up. Just a quick question though. If the soil I have already has iron in it, should I still mix in the clay? I know the clay serves a dual purpose as a binder and iron source. Here in HI, everywhere is covered in red dirt. I know that's from the iron oxide from the volcanic soil.


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Is there an exact science as to how much muriate of potash should be put down? What happens if you put down too much?


----------



## f1ea

Knotty Bitz said:


> Is there an exact science as to how much muriate of potash should be put down? What happens if you put down too much?


Its definitely not an exact science as it very much depends on the components of the top soil you're using; which could range from rich substrate to nearly inert soil. In any case, the quantity of KCl to add is very little, and since it is added below the substrate it should be released slowly. It also depends on the type of plants and lighting you'll use and the ammount of nutrients you are going to be introducing in the form of fish food and/or ferts.

Experts, please correct me if i'm wrong!
Regards


----------



## Knotty Bitz

Ive used about 4 tblspoons of it in a 75 gallon. How is that?


----------



## gdcox76

Ok so just a clarification on the use of the Dolomite. How would you determine if it is needed. I'm in Alberta Canada and our water comes out of the tap at about 7.4 - 7.8 PH does that mean that I wouldn't want to use the dolomite?

And the next question(s) when do you add fish into this cycle, do they need to be added from the start or after any algae bloom? Does the tank need to be planted heavily to start or does it matter?


----------



## cbwmn

Hello
I have tried a mineralized tank setup twice.
Both times I get gas bubbles from the substrate.
First tank was a 24 gallon with min. soil topped by Tahitian moon sand. 
Finally the fish died so I had to dump everything.
The last tank was a spare 10 gallon cheapo from Wally land that had a 
cracked bottom which I fixed with silicone.
I soaked and dried cheap potting soil about ten times, mixed in some tan colored clay, 
put in crushed coral and Muriate of Potash, put the min soil in the tank 
and topped it with plain sand. No fish this time-only plants.
For the past few days, I’ve been probing the substrate to release trapped gas. 
Is the crushed coral the culprit? I cannot find Dolamite.

The plants are growing well and I’m only getting algae on the glass.
Thanks
Charles


----------



## cbwmn

I should say that I am injecting DIY CO2 with a small HOB filter.
Charles


----------



## epond83

I read through post of this thread, i have some simple question.

When you plant do you just move the cap layer to the side and plat in the soil then cover it up? Does it not get all mixed up? and do you not worry about cleaning the sunbrate when doing water changes?


----------



## fishaquatics

When I clean my tank that has dirt as gravel, I see debris settle where there is no water flow. (behind plants, wood, and ect.)To clean it I use my hand to make a flow of water to move the garbage that has settled, and let my filter pick it up.(I do it repeatedly) Thats what I do but im really not sure if thats thats right way. I also learned that the dirt makes the garbage on the bottem food for the plants.
-Ian


----------



## fishaquatics

How do you do such a fine job at pruning you plants? What is your secret? Thank you for answering all the other questions, because im learning alot! I think I have to give it a try with the soil.


----------



## dedariux

Cant find dolomite anywhere. Will dolomitic limestone powder work instead? Also found some reef tank stuff, which had Ca and Mg Chlorides in it. I am affraid it will dissolve very fast.


----------



## illumnae

I managed to find some $2 (singapore dollars) bags of soil. The lady at the store called it topsoil. It's dark brown, slightly moist but upon close examination you can see that it's grainy. I don't see much sticks and stuff though.

When I called them again for further clarification, they informed me that what they called "topsoil" was actually their own "mix" of soil and included things like fertilizers, compost, cocopeat etc. What they sold me they called "mix soil" which is a mix of burnt soil and black soil. They told me that this "mix soil" is similar to what you dig up from the ground and comes with no other additives. They just mix it themselves instead of digging it up. It is also good enough in nutrients to grow stuff like bamboo, bouganvillea flowers etc. So did I get the right thing?

edit: Would appreciate some advice on this asap  I'm trying to redo my tank on an upcoming long weekend (public holiday) that is 3 weeks from today, so I need to start mineralizing within the next 2 days!


----------



## jaidexl

richard901 said:


> I bought top soil from homer depot and all it was, sand and mulch; I strained most of the heavy particulates and I ended up with pure sand.. disappointing...


Did it look like this? This is the end result of some Treeline brand soil sold at HD and Lowes, supposedly all natural but had a ton of wood chips. Looks to me like nothing but sand and whatever wood slips through the screen. I wasted a whole month?


----------



## aquadork

Just registered to thank you for the informative article, Aaron. I'm looking at getting back into the hobby after a brief absence and the cost of the substrates marketed at planted aquariums always seemed ridiculous - hundreds of dollars for dirt!

I'll be giving this a whirl with at least one tank - maybe I'll post back in a few weeks (months? ) when I get my act together and actually do it! 

Do wish I'd found out about this (specifically the wash/drying cycle) before the Vancouver rainy season settled in, though.  Oh well!


----------



## Tausendblatt

I'm doing M-S-S, it is taking forever for my dirt to dry. It's been at least a week and it is still soaked... in the first wet dry cycle! (it is inside in a container... I know it would dry faster spread out...)

Other than that I have everything... I hope it works for the better.


----------



## Vadimshevchuk

Stupid question....... What if u used a little of ash? would it effect water chemistry alot. I think it would have extra carbon right? I heard of ppl dumping ash on their gardens if they have a wood stove.


----------



## jaidexl

Tausendblatt said:


> I'm doing M-S-S, it is taking forever for my dirt to dry. It's been at least a week and it is still soaked... in the first wet dry cycle! (it is inside in a container... I know it would dry faster spread out...)
> 
> Other than that I have everything... I hope it works for the better.


In theory, you are getting more mineralization action from microbes. Aaron states this is the time it happens, when the moist soil is exposed to O2. I'm not sure if microbes and bacteria can keep performing as well in dry soil, but I actually prolonged my drying periods for this reason, by clumping the dirt into a pile while raking it periodically. Patience will work for you here and should lead to a higher mineral content.



Vadimshevchuk said:


> Stupid question....... What if u used a little of ash? would it effect water chemistry alot. I think it would have extra carbon right? I heard of ppl dumping ash on their gardens if they have a wood stove.


Wood ash could raise the pH, not sure how much but I don't think I would do it.


----------



## gdcox76

I have a question regarding Nitrate and phosphate readings in a tank with Mineralized soil. I have tested repeatedly since my cycle completed and both are at "0" and I expect will stay that way with no addition of ferts. Is this normal? Should I be concerned?


----------



## El Exorcisto

There is no water flow through your soil, so the fertilizers are sequestered out of the water column. This makes for very happy roots, and typically sad algae.


----------



## Tausendblatt

So, how long should I expect to wait until I can see further than an inch into the tank? I can see a sepia spectrum and that is it. I suppose having fish in there didn't help matters much. Any advice?

I filled up the tank with the soil on friday, and after 2 water changes and very careful filling, it is terrible. The plants are looking a mess. The leaves are limp and a dark green brown colour. I tried to cap it with sand but I ran out of sand.

AHHG

Here is what it looks like: (only brown)
http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_74/gradient.jpg


----------



## El Exorcisto

You can't use it without it being capped with sand... Mud puddles never quite settle out enough to be clear, and right now you're dealing with a mud puddle. Break it down and start over, make SURE your cap is complete from wall to wall before adding water.


----------



## Tausendblatt

I capped it with a lot of sand and it is almost cleared up now. Thanks for the help good sir!


----------



## shoalbrother

Very interesting and informative read. This whole thread is gold dust to a noob like myself. Looking to setup my first planted tank in the next couple of weeks. Will definitely be trying this out


----------



## darryn

@AaronT and others.
Thank you very much for posting this howto it is a great source of reference for noobs like me.
I will try this method in a new tank I will be setting up shortly.


----------



## darryn

I am very interested in trying the mineralized soil approach. I have been to a nurseries and they don't stock topsoil. When I asked them for plain topsoil, they show me products that are labelled "Lawn Dressing". They assure me that this is the same as topsoil. I am not to sure ....
Is it in fact the same thing? Can I mineralize this and have the same results?
I am just scared of putting something in my tank that will negatively affect fish and plants.
TIA


----------



## darryn

Don't mean to sound stupid or anything, but in step 1, after you have added the water (the first time), you wait a day or two, then dump off the water, then add more water again. After adding water the second time, do you leave the 'mixture' again for another day or two before proceeding to step 2?
TIA


----------



## wearsbunnyslippers

hey darryn,

good to see you here too 

you can let it soak another day or two, it will leech out more the longer you let it soak.


----------



## darryn

Hey WBS.
So it's basically 2 days soaking, change water, 2 days soaking, drying, repeat X 4 ...
Thanks for all the help so far. This will be my first planted tank, so I still have lots of questions ....


----------



## grak70

Hey darryn:

When I made my substrate, I just went to the Home Depot and went through their soil section one brand at a time. I either looked for a torn bag or tore one a little myself and dug in. If it looks like mulch, potting soil (has perlite/fillers or fert spheres), compost or if a handful feels warm or wet, try something else.









Here's what I bought. It was dirt cheap (yuk yuk). I think $2-3/40lb. bag.









A handful before any screening









As used

Of course, not pre-treating it or anything I had a huge green water problem, but that eventually subsided. That's another reason I'm so keen to try the mineralized method on my rescape.









Planted









A few months later...


----------



## darryn

When you dump off the water, do I remove the floating 'bits' as well, or should I mix them back into the soil?
TIA


----------



## AaronT

darryn said:


> When you dump off the water, do I remove the floating 'bits' as well, or should I mix them back into the soil?
> TIA


No, it's best to remove them. I remove them later during the screening process myself, but it doesn't hurt to skim them off of the water either.


----------



## Diana K

Here is a way to test any soil you are thinking of using. You need about a handful to a double handful. It should be dry to start with. 

Put a piece of masking tape on a jar so you can write on it. The jar should be straight sided. The tape will go from top to bottom. The jar might have a volume of half a liter to a liter. 

Break up any clods and put the soil sample in the jar. It might half fill the jar, maybe 2/3. Grinding it with a mortar and pestle is best. Pounding it with a hammer might be a low-tech way of making sure all the pieces are broken up. Tamp it in a bit to get rid of larger air masses. (Tap the jar on the table) Mark on the tape where the top of the soil is. 

Now add water and a little bit of soap. Pretty close to fill the jar, maybe 3/4 full. Certainly more water than there is soil. Dish washing soap, hand washing soap... does not matter much. Just a drop. Powdered detergent is fine, too, a few granules. 

Secure the lid and shake...and shake...and shake... (This is why a jar much larger than a liter is not so good) If you find you did not add enough water add more. When you are sure all the soil is really well wet:

Set the jar down and time it. Be ready to mark the tape:

In less than 30 seconds sand falls out. At 30 seconds mark the tape where the top of the soil seems to be. 
Between 1-2 minutes silt falls out. Silt is a soil particle size that is almost too small to see, but is not clay. Mark the tape where the top of the soil seems to be at 2 minutes. 
The colored water that remains has clay particles suspended in it. 
Anything you see floating is organic matter. It will not have gotten wet enough yet to mix with the water or settle out.
Over a period of 24 hours the larger clay particles will settle out. 
If the water is still cloudy it has coloidal clay. This is clay particles that are so small that Brownian motion keeps them suspended. 

Interpreting the results:
If the water is still cloudy after 24 hours forget it. This soil MIGHT be OK after mineralizing, but maybe not. Over the years in the garden microorganisms will bind clay together so it is better soil for the plants and all the life in the soil, but I for one do not want to wait that long to set up a tank. 
If there is a lot of organic matter floating, and you have to pay for this soil, then think of the waste. You will need to remove most of it. Floating it off will work as described above. Each time you cover the soil with water, skim the surface. 
If this is free dirt you have shoveled up from your back yard this is not much of a $ problem, just start with a bigger batch. You might even screen it before starting the mineralizing to get rid of the larger pieces. 

Now look at the amounts of sand, silt and clay that have settled out in the jar. 
The sizes of these particles are very carefully described in soil classification charts, but I have found that the stuff that settles out as sand and silt make better soil for an aquarium. If there is too much clay (more than 5%) then it is too much clay. 
Somewhere around 70-80% sand, and the rest mostly silt is really good. Clay has the highest cationic exchange capacity, but it does not take much to handle the needs of an aquarium. (Or a garden)

Note that I am NOT saying to go buy a bag of sand. I am saying the soil scientists' description of soil uses the word 'sand' to describe the particle size that works well in an aquarium. In a mixed soil sample the 'sand' will be all the sizes from coarse enough to feel gritty to an almost smooth feeling particle size. 
Silt particle sizes will feel smooth, but not gooy or sticky, and clay will feel smooth and gooy. A blend of sizes mostly in the 'sand' size range, with a reasonable amount of silt and a little clay is great. 

Note also that this does not say anything about what nutrients are present in the soil. Some clay is high in iron. Some soils are high in Ca and Mg. 
You can use your aquarium test kit to test the water that has cleared in the jar, but better to avoid the soap by repeating the shaking of a separate sample of soil and water in a jar, but do not add soap. If your GH test shows it is high in minerals you might not want to add so much (or any) dolomite. If the iron test is too low, then add some laterite. 
There are also garden soil tests that you can use at this point. 

I see several people have asked about variations in the wet/dry cycle, and storing the soil in containers. 
The timing of the cycle is based on the growth of certain microorganisms. In cooler weather they grow slower, and using the length of time it takes for the soil to dry as a timing method is pretty good. 
These microorganisms need oxygen, so spreading out the soil is important. It will not mineralize very well in an open container like a bucket. I suspect that doing this in the shade would be better in really warm weather.


----------



## Capsaicin

Is it possible to use Potassium Carbonate(K2CO3) instead of the Potassium Chloride(Muriate of Potash)? Continental Clay Company here in Minnesota sells everything needed for this except the Topsoil.


Edit: Found a place called Brew & Grow in Spring Lake Park, MN that sells Muriate of Potash. I am spending about $15 for the MTS mixture and I already have 3M ColorQuartz for the inert substrate. I love the internet for it's searching power!


----------



## MaD_Sci

I tried doing mineralized soil before, was going great until I poured too much water into the soil to get it saturated before I put a layer of gravel on top. Whole thing was ruied. Huh. Maybe next time I'll try again....


----------



## AaronT

Diana K - That's the best explanation I've heard regarding what type of soil to look for.


----------



## darryn

Is there any value in repeating the rinsing/drying process more than the 4 or 5 times mentioned in the first post?
I have just finished the 5th 'cycle', but my tank is not ready yet. I was thinking that if there is some value in more cycles, I would continue until the tank is ready.
TIA


----------



## Jane in Upton

Wow,

Diana K, THANK YOU!

Even for doing a straight 'El Natural' type tank (not pre-mineralizing) that is a great way to assess the kind of soil to use. This question comes up constantly on the El Natural forum. 

What a great and straightforward way to test this!

Many Thanks,
Jane


----------



## endgin33

Diana,
That was cool. Thanks for taking the time.


----------



## AaronT

darryn said:


> Is there any value in repeating the rinsing/drying process more than the 4 or 5 times mentioned in the first post?
> I have just finished the 5th 'cycle', but my tank is not ready yet. I was thinking that if there is some value in more cycles, I would continue until the tank is ready.
> TIA


It probably wouldn't help much at this point. If you haven't sifted the soil that goes a long way to getting rid of bits of leaves, rocks and twigs that don't help things down the line.


----------



## darryn

AaronT said:


> It probably wouldn't help much at this point. If you haven't sifted the soil that goes a long way to getting rid of bits of leaves, rocks and twigs that don't help things down the line.


Sorry, I don't understand.
Are you saying that they is no use in doing more repetitions of the cycle?
Not sure what you mean "that goes a long way to getting rid of bits of leaves, rocks and twigs that don't help things down the line".

Could you please clarify?
TIA


----------



## croccodillo

Hello all,

I just read the wjhole thread, cause I'm in the process to setup a new small (35L) planted aquarium and wanted to try something different, something more natural, so I searched for topsoil and finished here.
Thank you for the big help you are giving me understanding how to do this task.

Just a stupid question: as fas as I understood, the mineralization process can exist if the microbes and bacteria are exposed to O2, or, in another words, to the air.
What if we leave the topsoil submerged in the water, and instead pump air into the container, with some air pump and, let's say, few airstones?
This should add a lot of oxigen to the water, and also "stir" continuously the soil until mineralized.
What do you think?
This way we could leave the soil into the water for as long as two-three weeks, and simply dry it at the end.

I've used this method in the past with hydroponic cultivation, to keep the root of the plants (roots completely submerged in the water) well oxigenated and prevent them to rot; it worked amazingly well, my cultivations were amazing, the roots was breaking down nutrients with an amazing rate, the growth was unbelievable.

Ciao,
Giovanni


----------



## AaronT

darryn said:


> Sorry, I don't understand.
> Are you saying that they is no use in doing more repetitions of the cycle?
> Not sure what you mean "that goes a long way to getting rid of bits of leaves, rocks and twigs that don't help things down the line".
> 
> Could you please clarify?
> TIA


Yes, there's not much use in continuing the repetitions. Once it's mineralized it's good to go and 4-5 cycles is usually more than enough.

I always let my soil dry completely after the last cycle and screen it to remove any sticks, stones and other organic materials that cause algae problems down the road. Not to mention that the sticks and such will float around in the tank every time you uproot something.


----------



## AaronT

croccodillo said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I just read the wjhole thread, cause I'm in the process to setup a new small (35L) planted aquarium and wanted to try something different, something more natural, so I searched for topsoil and finished here.
> Thank you for the big help you are giving me understanding how to do this task.
> 
> Just a stupid question: as fas as I understood, the mineralization process can exist if the microbes and bacteria are exposed to O2, or, in another words, to the air.
> What if we leave the topsoil submerged in the water, and instead pump air into the container, with some air pump and, let's say, few airstones?
> This should add a lot of oxigen to the water, and also "stir" continuously the soil until mineralized.
> What do you think?
> This way we could leave the soil into the water for as long as two-three weeks, and simply dry it at the end.
> 
> I've used this method in the past with hydroponic cultivation, to keep the root of the plants (roots completely submerged in the water) well oxigenated and prevent them to rot; it worked amazingly well, my cultivations were amazing, the roots was breaking down nutrients with an amazing rate, the growth was unbelievable.
> 
> Ciao,
> Giovanni


That does work in theory, but it's far less effective and would take longer than 2-3 weeks. The amount of oxygen that's exposed to the bacteria in the soil by drying it in the open air is far greater.


----------



## croccodillo

AaronT said:


> That does work in theory, but it's far less effective and would take longer than 2-3 weeks. The amount of oxygen that's exposed to the bacteria in the soil by drying it in the open air is far greater.


I know, but here in Bergamo (italy) now we are in the middle of the winter, the outdoor temperature oscillates around 0°C (32°F), so doing the mineralization outside is impossible.
More over, I'm not allowed by my wife to play with mud inside the house, so mineralization inside is also impossible...
The idea was to set up a bucket into the garage and let it run until ready; I really need few liters (I want to try this method in a 35L (9 US GAL), so something about 4 liter (1 US GAL) should be enough.

What if I do the process as decribed in the thred but leaving the soil into the bucket? Being a little quantity should work.

Ciao,
Giovanni


----------



## AaronT

croccodillo said:


> I know, but here in Bergamo (italy) now we are in the middle of the winter, the outdoor temperature oscillates around 0°C (32°F), so doing the mineralization outside is impossible.
> More over, I'm not allowed by my wife to play with mud inside the house, so mineralization inside is also impossible...
> The idea was to set up a bucket into the garage and let it run until ready; I really need few liters (I want to try this method in a 35L (9 US GAL), so something about 4 liter (1 US GAL) should be enough.
> 
> What if I do the process as decribed in the thred but leaving the soil into the bucket? Being a little quantity should work.
> 
> Ciao,
> Giovanni


Why not let it dry in the garage? True, it takes longer in the winter time, but still not as long as the method you propose.


----------



## xpistalpetex

hey aaron would it be possible to use potassium sulfate instead of potassium chloride ?


----------



## Canyouhearthem

snail friendly?


----------



## MrSanders

any one know of a good source to buy Muriate of potash and domolite?? maybe some where that sells both? i need enough for a 75g, and several 10g tanks....

THANKS!!


----------



## grak70

MrSanders,

You can buy both at a home&garden store in the fertilizer section.

Muriate of potash is an archaic name for potassium chloride or KCl, the "potash" (potassium) salt of "muriatic" acid (HCl).

Dolomite is CaMg(CO3)2. Make sure you check the bag assay & compare formula: don't buy quicklime (CaO) or hydrated lime (Ca(OH)2) by mistake as these are sometimes labeled as "dolomitic lime". Both are caustic.


----------



## tylt33

Does anyone have a small amount of extra MTS they would like to sell? I've been trying to find some. I need enough for a 24" x 12" 17g aquarium... not much and I'd be happy to pay a fair price!


----------



## MrSanders

I Have had a hard time finding it locally, any online resources?


----------



## tylt33

Does anyone know if "Kellogg's Garden Soil" is appropriate for this process? Ingredients are: Composted forest humus, compost, composted chicken manure, worm castings, kelp meal, and bat guano. With oyster and dolomite limes (pH adjusters).


----------



## Cryptichmind

muriate of potash is used in agriculture as a fertilizer--Head to the nearest farm/feed supply store. I was given a pound for free (still made the proprietor take some cash on principle) after telling him what I was using it for. This is sold in mass quantities. You certainly are unlikely to need 50-100-1000 lbs unless you want to use it on your fields as well(!)
If you want dolomite without worrying about other additives, it is sold in crushable pill form (saves having to buy large quantities) at any health food store, and I believe that I saw it in the vitamin aisle at Wallyworld. Cheap, too.

Kudos to Aaron T for publicizing this method in such detail. No matter how long you remain in this hobby, you can always find something you haven't tried, haven't kept, or haven't bred yet. Now I have a legitimate excuse for playing with mud beyond growing this season's veggies.


----------



## MrSanders

THANKS Cryptichmind good info


----------



## AaronT

tylt33 said:


> Does anyone know if "Kellogg's Garden Soil" is appropriate for this process? Ingredients are: Composted forest humus, compost, composted chicken manure, worm castings, kelp meal, and bat guano. With oyster and dolomite limes (pH adjusters).


No, that's what's known as a soilless mix. It's added to topsoil to enrich it for terrestrial plants. You want good old dirt without organics such as manure and forest humus and all of those other additives. DianaK. made a great post a few pages back about what type of soil is appropriate to use.


----------



## AaronT

http://axner.com/dolomite-dolowhite.aspx has the dolomite in powdered form by the pound. They also have the clay. The potash can be found at the local farm / feed store as someone mentioned.


----------



## MrSanders

Thanks a lot for that link Aaron. Just curious since its been a long while since you originally posted this method what have you noticed about your long term need for dosing? Have you ever added anything other than K to tanks set up like this? and in what time range have you noticed that you needed to start adding K, and in what amounts?


----------



## Kiril

Hello all,

I recently got a used, but nearly new, 29 gal biocube from a friend of mine for free, so I guess I am now going to start a planted aquarium. So that also means I am a noob to the hobby.

I am considering doing this mineralized soil approach, but I have some ideas for a slightly different approach. I guess it would be appropriate to document methodology here in order to get input from others who have been experimenting for years, assuming this is OK with Aaron?

A little info on me. My formal education includes a BS degree in soil science and hydrology, and nearly a second BS in applied plant biology. I would be happy to answer any of the more technical questions people might have with regard soil based substrates (per the topic).


----------



## goldier

Hi Kiril, great minds think alike, lol since I’ve also been pondering on a way to make a mineral enriched substrate in a more simple way and with less effort than the one illustrated by Aaron, and with less plagues with nitrogen and other macros leaching from the El Natural method during the early phase of setup. I look forward to see your ideas and different approach when you start to post. Maybe you can start a journal on it.


----------



## AaronT

Kiril said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I recently got a used, but nearly new, 29 gal biocube from a friend of mine for free, so I guess I am now going to start a planted aquarium. So that also means I am a noob to the hobby.
> 
> I am considering doing this mineralized soil approach, but I have some ideas for a slightly different approach. I guess it would be appropriate to document methodology here in order to get input from others who have been experimenting for years, assuming this is OK with Aaron?
> 
> A little info on me. My formal education includes a BS degree in soil science and hydrology, and nearly a second BS in applied plant biology. I would be happy to answer any of the more technical questions people might have with regard soil based substrates (per the topic).


Fine by me.


----------



## AaronT

MrSanders said:


> Thanks a lot for that link Aaron. Just curious since its been a long while since you originally posted this method what have you noticed about your long term need for dosing? Have you ever added anything other than K to tanks set up like this? and in what time range have you noticed that you needed to start adding K, and in what amounts?


K has still the only thing I've ever needed to dose. I've had tanks running about 3 years now before I've had to tear them down (not for needing to redo the substrate, but for moving reasons). I usually need to start adding K about 4-6 months after the initial setup. I dose about 1.0 ppm / week or less. It doesn't take much.


----------



## Kiril

goldier said:


> Hi Kiril, great minds think alike, lol since I've also been pondering on a way to make a mineral enriched substrate in a more simple way and with less effort than the one illustrated by Aaron, and with less plagues with nitrogen and other macros leaching from the El Natural method during the early phase of setup. I look forward to see your ideas and different approach when you start to post. Maybe you can start a journal on it.


 I may start a journal on the process. Basically I am looking at building a soil medium that will hopefully work with normal tap water in my area and provide a long term source of nutrients for the specific type of plants/tank environment desired. I will not be using generic top soil in order to avoid the negative impacts associated with decomposing organic matter and to eliminate the wet/dry mineralization steps. If everything works the way I envision it, the different components of the substrate can be prepped, mixed, and used almost immediately.


----------



## goldier

So what kind of soil are you considering? I've thought about clay because I have used it in an outdoor pond, but I added fertilizer few times during the growing season.


----------



## Kiril

goldier said:


> So what kind of soil are you considering? I've thought about clay because I have used it in an outdoor pond, but I added fertilizer few times during the growing season.


 It will be primarily sand with clay and other naturally stable sources of slow release nutrients.


----------



## default user

I'm just about on my last wash cycle of my topsoil and was wondering if instead of using like craft clay. I could use the red clay from my yard an still be able to get the same results?


----------



## Tausendblatt

I CANNOT RECOMMEND MINERALIZED TOPSOIL ENOUGH!

I get way thicker growth, way less algae, and more species are doing well than in my "EI" tank.

If you have an empty tank, get some right away. (mind you it takes a month to prepare) but it gives cheap easy results! Bear in mind that there is no way I can profit from endorsing this stuff.


----------



## cheddar254

hey aaron,
great post! very useful! going to be using it soon! i would just like to ask some questions please!

at step 6 when putting the gravel over the mud wouldnt some of the gravel sink into the mud? thus causing a mixture thing?

and as for adding the clay? is there any sort of specific clay you must use or any?

thanks


----------



## cheddar254

oh and could i add sand over then mineralized soil? like play sand


----------



## cheddar254

or should i either go for silica? ( pool filter sand, abit bigger in grain size, like 1-2mm


----------



## Tausendblatt

cheddar254 said:


> hey aaron,
> great post! very useful! going to be using it soon! i would just like to ask some questions please!
> 
> at step 6 when putting the gravel over the mud wouldnt some of the gravel sink into the mud? thus causing a mixture thing?
> 
> and as for adding the clay? is there any sort of specific clay you must use or any?
> 
> thanks


I used pottery clay, the red stuff. I am not sure if the other clays have lotsa iron, but I can attest that I have great growth and have never dosed iron in my mineralized topsoil tank. Therefore, one can conclude that red clay has iron. You could probably find some at an art supply store, if there is one in your area.

Adding sand overtop is fine. I don't think it matters what kind, but allegedly playsand is more lightweight than other sand so it's less likely to sink. I didn't have enough sand, so some of the soil was exposed to open water. All that happened was the tank was cloudy for a few weeks. A couple water changes and filter cleanings and it is all good.


----------



## cheddar254

Hey aaronT,

I am going to be trying this method with my 90 gallon tank, which I am going to be redoing now in the 5 week holidays we have here in South Africa during the Soccer World Cup. I am too lazy to go and look around for proper topsoils so i just dug some out of my garden and have started soaking it today! I will continue to post updates over the days ( weeks ) and will post pictures of the final product, so stay tuned 

The Garden soil









Starting to rinse


----------



## cheddar254

Ok, i walked my dog just now to the local art/ stationary supplies shop and i found this stuff called terracotta? It was in some weird language so i couldn't find out if it had a high iron content, it say moulding clay/paste at the back, heres a pic of it -

Funky clay









should i give it a shot its only R29 which is about $2 or $3


----------



## goldier

Just make sure that it has no other additives that may harm plants or fish. That looks expensive for a very small package. I got my big block of pottery red clay at a local pottery studio. It was 25 lb for about $5.


----------



## cheddar254

Ok i have just started to lay it out to dry on a cut refuse bag, can some one please tell me if this is how its supposed to look?

Drying Out









Close Up


----------



## xpistalpetex

has anyone used earthgro topsoil? after i did the 4 rinse n drying i have more organics then dirt, is this ok or should i try a different brand.


----------



## default user

xpistalpetex said:


> has anyone used earthgro topsoil? after i did the 4 rinse n drying i have more organics then dirt, is this ok or should i try a different brand.


Thats what I used, and I dont really have any large amount of organics. I sifted mine through window screen.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Hello! I live in georgia and was wondering if I can use the red Georgia clay that is so prevalent in this area? This is the kind of clay that makes our rivers turn red when it rains and will stain your clothes orange. 

Can I use only Georgia clay since I wouldn't be using the type of clay you use for pottery? I would just be digging it up from the yard. Could I get away with only a 1/4 inch layer of pure ga clay with 2 inches of fluorite over that?

Also, assuming i can't use Georgia clay place of garden center topsoil, can I use silt from a pond? We have a cabin on a small lake that's being filled in with silt from erosion upstream (construction). There is a lot organic matter in this silt since the lake has basically become a bog. Would using this organic rich silt be preferable? It doesn't appear to be clay-based because it's dark brown and clay isn't common at our cabin. 

The silt seems to be extremely low in nutrients and minerals, and seems to be primarily organic matter because sphagnum moss and pitcher plants grow well in it, and sphagnum moss and pitcher plants can not tolerate nutrients or minerals. I'm unclear as to whether it's desirable to start with soil that's mostly organic matter so that you'll end up with more mineralized media in the end, as opposed to substrate that is mostly inorganic to start with. This stuff is thick silty muck.


----------



## anrich

question? How well do fish cope with a new tank with Mineralized Soil Substrate?


----------



## davemonkey

anrich said:


> question? How well do fish cope with a new tank with Mineralized Soil Substrate?


It depends on how well you plant from the start. If you start off heavily planted, the plants will use whatever ammonia is released rapidly (assuming your lighting is decent). If you start off with very sparse planting, your fish may suffer.


----------



## default user

JustLikeAPill said:


> Hello! I live in georgia and was wondering if I can use the red Georgia clay that is so prevalent in this area? This is the kind of clay that makes our rivers turn red when it rains and will stain your clothes orange.
> 
> Can I use only Georgia clay since I wouldn't be using the type of clay you use for pottery? I would just be digging it up from the yard. Could I get away with only a 1/4 inch layer of pure ga clay with 2 inches of fluorite over that?


I tried using the type of red clay we have here in FL and it just turned into an orange mess. Maybe I wasn't doing something right, but when I mixed it with water it all pretty much stayed suspended in the water until you let sit for awhile then the slightest movement of the water would stir it all up again. It doesn't seem to be the type of clay the the pottery stuff is more silty dirt clay. But then again thats the FL clay i used from my yard.

You could always go through the process then test a small amount out and see what happens.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

I'm sure it's the same or almost the same stuff. I was thinking of just using a small amount, like a quarter of an inch covered by two inches of fluorite. 

How many inches of substrate did you top it with, and how deep was your layer or clay?


----------



## cheddar254

hi guys just a quick question, please respond quickly. I bought some $6 clay for my 16 gallon fish tank which i am going to be converting into a mineralized topsoil tank with plants. here are some pics of the clay please tell me if its suitable, because it doesnt mention ingredients on the back( high iron content ) and i put it in the oven to bake abit as i am going to crush it then put it in. thanks alot

package
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/cheddar254/29062010235.jpg

actual clay
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv90/cheddar254/29062010236.jpg


----------



## AaronT

JustLikeAPill said:


> I'm sure it's the same or almost the same stuff. I was thinking of just using a small amount, like a quarter of an inch covered by two inches of fluorite.
> 
> How many inches of substrate did you top it with, and how deep was your layer or clay?


I wouldn't use just clay as the soil layer. The mineralized soil layer should be about 90% soil and 10% clay. Using too much of any type of clay will result in a cloudy mess.


----------



## aman74

This article: http://amania.110mb.com/Chapters/Tech/sub-aquasoils_en.html

States not to use KCI (muritate of potash) in the soil as it kills bacteria.

Not saying that's the case as there are many articles and much info on the web that often conflicts, but the article is quite in depth and I thought it worthy of discussion.

What forms of potassium are available to plants via soil? K+ is not, correct?


----------



## HeyPK

I don't see the point in trying to keep all the minerals in the soil. Plants can take all the macronutrients (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, and S) quite efficiently from the water column.


----------



## slobodan

I would like to thank Aaron and Diane K and of course other members on contribution to this topic.
I'm in the process of setting up 120 gal. Amazon theme and going to try this approach.

Wondering if Kril is still around and any progress on his approach..


----------



## slobodan

Anyone tried FaFard Water Garden soil? Just asking..


----------



## crf529

Just curious as to growing moss and pellia in a tank using MTS, and how it performs? I'm interested because I have seen the warnings about fertilizing the water column causing algae outbreaks if not done minimally and accurately. As i'm looking to set up a shrimp only tank, where for me large amounts of moss and pellia will be a must, I just wanna make sure that I shouldn't be looking at AS instead where dosing wont be an issue? If it is required.


----------



## JeffyFunk

aman74 said:


> This article: http://amania.110mb.com/Chapters/Tech/sub-aquasoils_en.html
> 
> States not to use KCI (muritate of potash) in the soil as it kills bacteria.
> 
> Not saying that's the case as there are many articles and much info on the web that often conflicts, but the article is quite in depth and I thought it worthy of discussion.
> 
> What forms of potassium are available to plants via soil? K+ is not, correct?


I've seen and read that article before and found it quite interesting. That said, I don't think it's referenced well, making the task of checking the primary sources difficult to say the least. If you had read the article more carefully, you will see that he states that KCl will kill bacteria when used at a quantity of 5-10%. The amount of KCl used in mineralized soil is probably much lower than that overall. If you have it available, i'm sure that K2SO4 could also be used, but since KCl is more readily available, that is what is suggested.

Finally, K+ is the only oxidation state of potassium readily available and stable under standard (and aquarium) conditions...


----------



## Tommo

Hi Aaron 
Sensational thread by the way!!.
Aaron i am about to start , but i have 2 questions.
1)How deep can i have the mineralized soil, 2 inches or more? 
2)What is total depth including the gravel and soil do you recomend ? 

Cheers mate 

Andrew


----------



## Tommo

Also just another question 

Does the soil have to be totally dry,before adding it back into the container before adding more water to it ?

cheers


----------



## killacross

great thread...just started my own batch of MTS

however...it appears to me that the first step should be to dry it thoroughly and screen it initially (a large mesh) to remove the majority of the debris then move on to a finer mesh towards the end

i filled with water...scraped the surface of twigs and bark...and realized that the entire submerged top is more twigs and bark that could have been removed easily 10 mins before...

either way, exciting!....i think Im going to take soem liquid ferts and leave them to dry...take the solid that remains and sprinkle it across the bottom of my tank as well jus to get rid of it


----------



## MrFishyBob

AaronT,

AaronT, I'm interested in knowing the purpose of the topsoil so I could have a better understanding of the purpose of the top soil. For example, if the top soil is just to hold nutrients and a filler it doesn't matter what kind of dirt it is. But I believe this and it may be based on my incorrect assumption, that the soil used is already supposed to have other nutrients that makes it good for the plants.

You see I've gone to the store multiple times and asked for a few different types of top soil for using in this recipe. I'm interested in a specific brand of top soil so I know what to get. (other then Nature's Pride bag of top soil which can't be found around these parts).

Aaron T, is there any direction I can be pointed in?


----------



## AaronT

HeyPK said:


> I don't see the point in trying to keep all the minerals in the soil. Plants can take all the macronutrients (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, and S) quite efficiently from the water column.


That's true they can. My reason is because I find it's the easiest way for me to keep a low-maintenance, high-tech tank with minimal algae issues. Again, that's just my preference. It's especially ideal in a planted tank using all rooted type plants such as Echinodorus or Cryptocoryne species as they are heavy root feeders.


----------



## AaronT

crf529 said:


> Just curious as to growing moss and pellia in a tank using MTS, and how it performs? I'm interested because I have seen the warnings about fertilizing the water column causing algae outbreaks if not done minimally and accurately. As i'm looking to set up a shrimp only tank, where for me large amounts of moss and pellia will be a must, I just wanna make sure that I shouldn't be looking at AS instead where dosing wont be an issue? If it is required.


I don't really see the reason for an enriched substrate if most of what you are growing will be mosses and liverworts. I would just go with Aquasoil or something else in that case.


----------



## AaronT

Tommo said:


> Hi Aaron
> Sensational thread by the way!!.
> Aaron i am about to start , but i have 2 questions.
> 1)How deep can i have the mineralized soil, 2 inches or more?
> 2)What is total depth including the gravel and soil do you recomend ?
> 
> Cheers mate
> 
> Andrew


Andrew,

Keep the soil layer between 1/2"-1" deep and the top layer about another 1.5"-2.5" on top of that.

The reason for allowing the soil to dry is that the mineralization of the soil takes place when it is just damp and exposed to lots of oxygen. It's not as important to keep submersing the soil over and over again. That is more if you are concerned about removing any fertizilers or other chemicals that could be in the soil. Otherwise, you could simply keep spraying the soil to keep it a little wet until you notice that it doesn't smell anymore.


----------



## AaronT

killacross said:


> great thread...just started my own batch of MTS
> 
> however...it appears to me that the first step should be to dry it thoroughly and screen it initially (a large mesh) to remove the majority of the debris then move on to a finer mesh towards the end
> 
> i filled with water...scraped the surface of twigs and bark...and realized that the entire submerged top is more twigs and bark that could have been removed easily 10 mins before...
> 
> either way, exciting!....i think Im going to take soem liquid ferts and leave them to dry...take the solid that remains and sprinkle it across the bottom of my tank as well jus to get rid of it


Yup, that's probably not a bad place to start.


----------



## AaronT

MrFishyBob said:


> AaronT,
> 
> AaronT, I'm interested in knowing the purpose of the topsoil so I could have a better understanding of the purpose of the top soil. For example, if the top soil is just to hold nutrients and a filler it doesn't matter what kind of dirt it is. But I believe this and it may be based on my incorrect assumption, that the soil used is already supposed to have other nutrients that makes it good for the plants.
> 
> You see I've gone to the store multiple times and asked for a few different types of top soil for using in this recipe. I'm interested in a specific brand of top soil so I know what to get. (other then Nature's Pride bag of top soil which can't be found around these parts).
> 
> Aaron T, is there any direction I can be pointed in?


Diana K had a great post about this several pages ago. What you are trying to achieve with MTS is a substrate in which all of the organics are broken down into mineralized nutrients (i.e. bioavailable).

Don't worry about brand names. Get the cheapest bag of topsoil Lowes or Home Depot has to offer. It's cheap because they don't add anything like fertilizer, peat, vermiculite, etc. to it.


----------



## AaronT

aman74 said:


> This article: http://amania.110mb.com/Chapters/Tech/sub-aquasoils_en.html
> 
> States not to use KCI (muritate of potash) in the soil as it kills bacteria.
> 
> Not saying that's the case as there are many articles and much info on the web that often conflicts, but the article is quite in depth and I thought it worthy of discussion.
> 
> What forms of potassium are available to plants via soil? K+ is not, correct?


That's true. Using too much can inhibit the growth of good bacteria in the soil, however the amount we are using is pretty small. Using K2SO4 can cause issues too though. The sulfate could make it easier for hydrogen sulfide to form in the substrate, which is just as bad, if not worse.

I'm planing to try greensand in the next tank I set up. I'll let you all know how it turns out.
http://homeharvest.com/orgfertespoma.htm


----------



## MrFishyBob

AaronT said:


> Diana K had a great post about this several pages ago. What you are trying to achieve with MTS is a substrate in which all of the organics are broken down into mineralized nutrients (i.e. bioavailable).
> 
> Don't worry about brand names. Get the cheapest bag of topsoil Lowes or Home Depot has to offer. It's cheap because they don't add anything like fertilizer, peat, vermiculite, etc. to it.


Thank you very much Aaron.
I had spent my time reading so far the last 12 or 13 pages of this thread.


----------



## AaronT

FYI: For anyone looking for potash I found they carry it at Southern States if you have one nearby.


----------



## killacross

just a FYI

I found both dolomite powder and potassium chloride (muriate of potash) at a Vitamin Shoppe. the pair for less than $10

maybe theyll have one near you

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/content/en/stores/index.jsp;jsessionid=25240NTI1R1QWCQUC4YFAFQKCQL00UNE?intsource=header&tab_selection=vitamins


----------



## guy

Hi guys, great method and very informative thread!

Just a query regarding the final step of this method as I am putting together my first intensively planted tank and want to do it just right!

Is there a reason why the MSS is only meant to be 1/2"-1" deep? Also, does it need to be in its liquid form when you put it in the tank? Would the idea of letting it dry out and scaping the bottom of the tank with it not work?

The reason I ask is that I'm planning on having a full carpet in my tank so don't need to worry about what colour the substrate is... also want it sloping up towards the back but because my tank is so shallow (8") I would ideally just like to have a substrate completely made up of this MSS, sloping from maybe 1" at the front to 2.5" at the back. Any thoughts on this?

Also more of a general question - with mineralised substrate such as this, would having carbon in the filter be a problem in terms of taking nutrients from the plants? Do people generally use carbon media in planted tanks?


----------



## killacross

lets see...

1. you HAVE to cap it with something (pool filter sand, fine gravel, etc) if done correctly it becomes very light and airy...if you dont cap it...its not heavy enough to keep plants in the soil or keep the MTS out of the water column

2. you keep a thin layer (.5"-1") because you want it to have a good soil conductivity of water and O2. otherwise it will become anaerobic and will release toxic compounds as the few remaining organics in teh soil break down

3. you can let it dry out if you want...but its easier to handle if its moist

i did my tank in the opposite direction...dusted the bottom with nutrients...put my moist MTS in my tank and used a tool to pull it from the borders....then filled with moist pool filter sand

its easier to plant that way IMO then filled the tank SLOWLY

4. as far as using carbon in the filter...it doesnt hurt anything...its a personal preference really...a number of people do use it...a number of people dont


----------



## killacross

lets see...

1. you HAVE to cap it with something (pool filter sand, fine gravel, etc) if done correctly it becomes very light and airy...if you dont cap it...its not heavy enough to keep plants in the soil or keep the MTS out of the water column

2. you keep a thin layer (.5"-1") because you want it to have a good soil conductivity of water and O2. otherwise it will become anaerobic and will release toxic compounds as the few remaining organics in teh soil break down

3. you can let it dry out if you want...but its easier to handle if its moist

i did my tank in the opposite direction...dusted the bottom with nutrients...put my moist MTS in my tank and used a tool to pull it from the borders....then filled with moist pool filter sand

its easier to plant that way IMO then filled the tank SLOWLY

4. as far as using carbon in the filter...it doesnt hurt anything...its a personal preference really...a number of people do use it...a number of people dont


----------



## guy

Hi killacross - thanks for that, very useful! Will be investing in some fine gravel after all then!

Can't wait to see the fruits of my labours, can't believe it's taking this long though... what with preparing the soil and growing my UG carpet emersed I probably won't have fish in my tank until Christmas :-o


----------



## Helmetwill

I read we can use penny or nails for dose iron, is it safe for the fish?


----------



## HeyPK

I would avoid the U.S. penny, because it is made of copper and could cause copper poisoning., Nails are not a very good way to introduce iron either. In general it is not a good idea to have metals in contact with the water. If you don't want to shell out for commercial chelated iron solutions designed for planted tanks, you can always have soil under the gravel which will supply iron to the roots.


----------



## Lizzz

Would it be possible to substitute crushed terra cotta pots (not used/glazed) instead of potters clay? I assume they would be high in iron due to the red color, and know they are safe in an aquarium, but really have no idea past that... Any thoughts?


----------



## AaronT

Lizzz said:


> Would it be possible to substitute crushed terra cotta pots (not used/glazed) instead of potters clay? I assume they would be high in iron due to the red color, and know they are safe in an aquarium, but really have no idea past that... Any thoughts?


You could always use Laterite, which is available in most aquarium shops.


----------



## Lizzz

AaronT said:


> You could always use Laterite, which is available in most aquarium shops.


i just have a bunch of busted ones, that i figured i could use. Currently in my basic tank i use them as decoration...


----------



## AaronT

Lizzz said:


> i just have a bunch of busted ones, that i figured i could use. Currently in my basic tank i use them as decoration...


I don't think it would do much for you. You need the clay for its flocculating abilities as well. There are places online to order just a pound or two of the powdered clay. If you're going to skip anything skip the dolomite and / or potash. The clay, and the right amount of it, is very key to success.


----------



## Lizzz

killacross said:


> just a FYI
> 
> I found both dolomite powder and potassium chloride (muriate of potash) at a Vitamin Shoppe. the pair for less than $10
> 
> maybe theyll have one near you
> 
> http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/content/en/stores/index.jsp;jsessionid=25240NTI1R1QWCQUC4YFAFQKCQL00UNE?intsource=header&tab_selection=vitamins


last question before i start my adventure ... Vitamin Shoppe is quite closer than southern states, or a hardware type store...would these vitamins be sufficent, as long as theres no other weird ingredients listed?


----------



## AaronT

Lizzz said:


> last question before i start my adventure ... Vitamin Shoppe is quite closer than southern states, or a hardware type store...would these vitamins be sufficent, as long as theres no other weird ingredients listed?


I'm not sure that dolomite powder is the same thing. The potassium should be fine though. It's also sold in grocery stores as a salt substitute called "No Salt" or something like that.


----------



## ponchik

Hello Aaron,

thanks a lot for your description, we even have a translation of it in german: http://www.flowgrow.de/substrate/mineralisiertes-erdsubstrat-von-aaron-talbot-t4187.html

I used the search function and read some 30 pages of this thread to check if somebody has brought up my topic before but had to give up after I realized that there are 250 (!). So I'm sorry if you already answered the following question:

In your step 9 your write


> Cover the mud with more of the same border gravel from step 6.


 Doesn't the gravel sink into the mud and a result you have a mixture of mud and gravel which is not wanted? How do you avoid this effect - do you wait until the mud has dried so far that the gravel doesn't sink?

Denis


----------



## AaronT

ponchik said:


> Hello Aaron,
> 
> thanks a lot for your description, we even have a translation of it in german: http://www.flowgrow.de/substrate/mineralisiertes-erdsubstrat-von-aaron-talbot-t4187.html
> 
> I used the search function and read some 30 pages of this thread to check if somebody has brought up my topic before but had to give up after I realized that there are 250 (!). So I'm sorry if you already answered the following question:
> 
> In your step 9 your write Doesn't the gravel sink into the mud and a result you have a mixture of mud and gravel which is not wanted? How do you avoid this effect - do you wait until the mud has dried so far that the gravel doesn't sink?
> 
> Denis


Hi Denis,

No, the gravel will not sink into the mud. Most of it will remain on top as the mud is very thick. Once the tank is established the soil will naturally settle to the bottom whenever disturbed.


----------



## ponchik

AaronT said:


> Hi Denis,
> 
> No, the gravel will not sink into the mud. Most of it will remain on top as the mud is very thick. Once the tank is established the soil will naturally settle to the bottom whenever disturbed.


Hello Aaron,

thanks for your quick reply - OK, then the "thickness" of the mud must be high enough so the gravel stays on top, sounds convincing.

Denis


----------



## dude26212

i cant really get ahold of any potters clay due to the only craft shop in the area being hobby lobby and all they had were synthetic clays. but due to some local construction on drainage ditches there is some very dark red dirt. will this work as an alternitive and what if anything do i have to do to it to make it useful and safe?


----------



## AaronT

It might. Of course, you could always order some pottery clay online too.


----------



## dude26212

thank you tho another question is since the weather hasnt been very friendly lately ive ended up doin several rinses tho only one complete dry, i was wondering if drying and soaking it completely is needed any more, could i just keep it damp and constantly stir and turn it to make sure it is completely oxygenated? would this mineralize it or is the complete soak needed for more then dissolveing fertilizers and what not?


----------



## plantblr

Hello Aron,

I'am from Bangalore,India & have had NPT's for almost 4 years now. Since I read this thread of "Mineralizing Soil", I'am a bit curious to try this out. My only question is with the last part of the process where the slush of the mineralized soil is poured in to the tank.As another member here raised the concern of the top layer substrate sinking into the slush,even I have the same concern.So is it ok to add the mineralized soil as dry powder & then cover it with the top layer substrate of my choice?

Many thanks,
Ravi


----------



## AaronT

plantblr said:


> Hello Aron,
> 
> I'am from Bangalore,India & have had NPT's for almost 4 years now. Since I read this thread of "Mineralizing Soil", I'am a bit curious to try this out. My only question is with the last part of the process where the slush of the mineralized soil is poured in to the tank.As another member here raised the concern of the top layer substrate sinking into the slush,even I have the same concern.So is it ok to add the mineralized soil as dry powder & then cover it with the top layer substrate of my choice?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Ravi


Ravi,

I find it a lot easier to add it wet. I've done it both ways and adding it dry is actually messier because the particles are so fine it takes a while for it to saturate and you get a lot of gas bubbles in the substrate. Trust me that the gravel will not sink into the mud.

-Aaron


----------



## plantblr

Thanks for that Aaron. Your last line - "Trust me that the gravel will not sink into the mud." convinced me to give it a try . Thanks once again. Will keep things posted.

Thanks,
Ravi.


----------



## Adilson B.

Great article!

It´s not hard to make it!

The step by step is very simple!

Thanks for share it!


----------



## Lauder

cah925 said:


> I'm having trouble finding dolomite. Is this a necessary ingredient, is there a substitute? I've tried several aquatic/marine stores/websites and can't find it.


The vitamin shoppe carrys dolomite pills. Vegetarians take them for a supplement. Just put them in a grinder to make them into a powder.


----------



## darkoon

instead of using Clay, Dolomite and Muriate of Potash, can we substitute with Iron powder, CaCO3, MgSO4 and K2SO4?


----------



## Lizzz

darkoon said:


> instead of using Clay, Dolomite and Muriate of Potash, can we substitute with Iron powder, CaCO3, MgSO4 and K2SO4?


You can't substitute the clay, it's being used not only for the iron content but it flocculating ability. As far as the other substations, I know the dolomite should be the crystal form, and the potash I purchased is potassium chloride derivative, as apposed to sulfate. Thats as far as my chemistry skills though, so I'm not sure if that effects anything.


----------



## darkoon

Thanks Lizzz.
I guess alternative, we can probably just mix up some fert with Clay, and roll up some small clay balls and push them under the substrate.


----------



## RickRS

From the number of post begging for brand names of topsoil, I'll add this:

Currently finishing the mineralization of a bag of EarthGro brand topsoil, from my local Home Depot. This seems to be exactly what Aaron tells us to look for, cheap ($1.33 for a 50 pound bag) and soil only. The stuff has some sticks and rocks, but nothing in excess. Because of it inexpensive natural, it has no added humus, peat, or fertilizer. It appears to be breaking down just as Aaron promised.

When you screen it dry, watch that you don't discard clay that has dried into small pellets. Half of what appeared to be rocks were actually small chunks of clay. Of course since we are to add more clay, it shouldn't be that big a deal if some is lost.


----------



## brechstylez

Hi Aron, I was simply amazed by your article as I have been readvy up on DIY aquarium soil and found your methos both simple and effective. I am a beginner and have a coupleof tanks which aLL have plants. I want to try this method in one of my 20g tanks. Iam in the UK and cannot get my hand of some of these ingredience. can I use any type of clay. "DAS Air Drying Modelling Craft Clay" 

thanks in advance.


----------



## AaronT

RickRS said:


> From the number of post begging for brand names of topsoil, I'll add this:
> 
> Currently finishing the mineralization of a bag of EarthGro brand topsoil, from my local Home Depot. This seems to be exactly what Aaron tells us to look for, cheap ($1.33 for a 50 pound bag) and soil only. The stuff has some sticks and rocks, but nothing in excess. Because of it inexpensive natural, it has no added humus, peat, or fertilizer. It appears to be breaking down just as Aaron promised.
> 
> When you screen it dry, watch that you don't discard clay that has dried into small pellets. Half of what appeared to be rocks were actually small chunks of clay. Of course since we are to add more clay, it shouldn't be that big a deal if some is lost.


Thanks for sharing your experience so far Rick. It sounds like you definitely bought the right bag of dirt. That's a good tip on the screening. I do use a fair bit of force when screening to make sure I only get out the leaves, sticks and rocks.


----------



## AaronT

brechstylez said:


> Hi Aron, I was simply amazed by your article as I have been readvy up on DIY aquarium soil and found your methos both simple and effective. I am a beginner and have a coupleof tanks which aLL have plants. I want to try this method in one of my 20g tanks. Iam in the UK and cannot get my hand of some of these ingredience. can I use any type of clay. "DAS Air Drying Modelling Craft Clay"
> 
> thanks in advance.


Usually modeling clay is synthetic and should NOT be put in an aquarium.

Do you have any local pottery shops? I just asked my local pottery shop where they get their clay and they directed me to a supplier in the city that sells it in 10 lb. blocks.


----------



## Varma

Aaron,

Thanks for writing this great article and share it to the commiunity. I have been thinking about this for a while and atlast I collected all the things in the list that I can get hold off. I just want to make sure I collected the right items and also the process I am following is right. 

I know you explained pretty clear but when I started the process of mineralizing right then the questions started hitting me for each and everything in the list below.
• Cheap topsoil 
• Pottery clay
• Dolomite
• Muriate of potash

The Aquarium I am currently working on is 90 GAL (48 Lx 18 W). So please help me with the quantities if I am putting toomuch or too low.

Topsoil: I got the Topsoil from peterose. Usually this store sell them in tones but the guy let me fill the 5GAL bucket pure topsoil(Without any mulch/peatmoss mix) for free. I noticed minimal organic stuff in it. I started mineralizing the soil. During the process when I dump the muddy water, I noticed Fine soil(Creamy texture) is getting dumped with muddy water. According to my understanding this creamy texture soil is pure soil. When this creamy texture soil dried its turned out like soft powder. The soil sitting in the container bottom has sand like texture that you feel in the beach. The questoin I have is Do I need to keep this creamy texture soil along with sandy texture soil or just sandy texture soil or just creamy texture soil? 

Q 1) Which texture soil do I need to keep?

Q 2) 5 GAL bucket Topsoil is that enough for 90 GAL Tank ?

Pottery Clay: I got 2.5 pounds of gray color Pottery Clay for 2$. Not sure whether that is the right clay for this project or not. see the Picture 
Q 3) I am not sure also whether the picture helps or not. if Helps Is this the right pottery clay?


Dolomite: Not sure whether this is the right thing I purchased or not. Please see the pictures.
Q 4) Is it the right one? if so howmuch do I need to put in 90 GAL Tank?

Muriate of Potash: Not sure whether this is the right thing I purchased or not. Please see the pictures.
Q 5) Is it the right one? if so howmuch do I need to put in 90 GAL Tank?

I really appriciate your help on this


----------



## Varma

This weekend I did the First step of minerlizing the soil process in the aquarium and dumped the water and let it dry in the tank itself over the night and day. Today I thought of bringing the bottom layer upside to make the bottom layer exposed to air, I noticed the top layer is nothing but 1/4 inch of PURE SOIL and rest of the bottom layer is fine snad. 

The Reason These Layers were seperated might be because of the additional water poured into the tank because of the rain and the way that I mixed/washed the soil when there was still half tank of water.

As these are separated, Do I still need to keep both of these different substrates(SOIL,SAND) or
can I throw away the sand and keep the Pure Soil and continue the process?


----------



## RickRS

Varma, wouldn't it be easier to wash the top soil in a bucket and pour it out on a big piece of plastic sheet, as suggested? The 90 gallon going to be difficult to empty and refill repeatly, what with its weight added to the topsoil.


----------



## Varma

Rick

Thanks for your reply. 

I live in an area where wind is heavy most of the time in my patio because of the landscape. drying the topsoil on the floor causes huge mess because of the wind and also I am afraid fine soil will be blown away by the wind which will spoil the purpose of topsoil. thats the reason I opted for tank.

I already emptied the tank couple of times so I believe with just soil and 5 inches of water above the soil is not that hard to empty out the water.

Once the minerization is completed I will move the soil to bucket and move the aquarium into the home. This is what my plan is. but If I have to follow the process and use only the sheet I have to dry this soil in my friends place.


----------



## Varma

Aaron,


Really Appriciate if you could confirm the bags that I purchased are proper bags. Please see the images attached on 3/17/11


Thanks in Advance
Varma


----------



## Varma

I purchased Earthgro topsoil also from homedepot to find the difference. When I was mixing the water and with earthgro soil I noticed Greasy kind of substance sticking to Hand. Is this natural?


----------



## RickRS

Wet clay is geasy feeling. Is that what you're finding? Compare it to the block of clay you bought seperately.


----------



## RickRS

Just passing on something I learned when searching for clay:

AMACO (American Art Clay) is a common brand found at crafts stores in the USA, such as A.C. Moore and Micheal's. I emailed their technical support to ensure some of the stuff I found would be fine for aquarium subtrate use. AMACO warns that a lot of their clays found in craft stores have preservatives added and they don't recommend using those in aquariums. Two AMACO clays that may be found in craft stores that didn't have preservatives are "Sedona Red Casting Slip No. 67" and "Magic Mud". 

The AMACO Terra Cotta Air Dry clay I had found in 10 and 25 pound boxes at my local A.C. Moore were not recommended because of preservatives. They did have Magic Mud but it was a white clay, so it's likely is not iron rich enough for Aaron's MTS recipe.


----------



## jetajockey

Varma said:


> Rick
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I live in an area where wind is heavy most of the time in my patio because of the landscape. drying the topsoil on the floor causes huge mess because of the wind and also I am afraid fine soil will be blown away by the wind which will spoil the purpose of topsoil. thats the reason I opted for tank.
> 
> I already emptied the tank couple of times so I believe with just soil and 5 inches of water above the soil is not that hard to empty out the water.
> 
> Once the minerization is completed I will move the soil to bucket and move the aquarium into the home. This is what my plan is. but If I have to follow the process and use only the sheet I have to dry this soil in my friends place.


The topsoil will kinda clump together when it dries out so I've yet to have an issue with it blowing away and I set mine out in a fairly windy area as well. One important part is to have it in an extremely thin layer so that it goes through the drying process really well (and much faster) each time.

I use heavy plastic sheeting material and spread it out with a rake.

As far as the clay and other materials go, I just ended up buying them in bulk amounts so I have a ton to work with, but it justified the cost of having it shipped in.


----------



## jetajockey

Varma said:


> Aaron,
> 
> Thanks for writing this great article and share it to the commiunity. I have been thinking about this for a while and atlast I collected all the things in the list that I can get hold off. I just want to make sure I collected the right items and also the process I am following is right.
> 
> I know you explained pretty clear but when I started the process of mineralizing right then the questions started hitting me for each and everything in the list below.
> • Cheap topsoil
> • Pottery clay
> • Dolomite
> • Muriate of potash
> 
> The Aquarium I am currently working on is 90 GAL (48 Lx 18 W). So please help me with the quantities if I am putting toomuch or too low.
> 
> Topsoil: I got the Topsoil from peterose. Usually this store sell them in tones but the guy let me fill the 5GAL bucket pure topsoil(Without any mulch/peatmoss mix) for free. I noticed minimal organic stuff in it. I started mineralizing the soil. During the process when I dump the muddy water, I noticed Fine soil(Creamy texture) is getting dumped with muddy water. According to my understanding this creamy texture soil is pure soil. When this creamy texture soil dried its turned out like soft powder. The soil sitting in the container bottom has sand like texture that you feel in the beach. The questoin I have is Do I need to keep this creamy texture soil along with sandy texture soil or just sandy texture soil or just creamy texture soil?
> 
> Q 1) Which texture soil do I need to keep?
> 
> Q 2) 5 GAL bucket Topsoil is that enough for 90 GAL Tank ?
> 
> Pottery Clay: I got 2.5 pounds of gray color Pottery Clay for 2$. Not sure whether that is the right clay for this project or not. see the Picture
> Q 3) I am not sure also whether the picture helps or not. if Helps Is this the right pottery clay?
> 
> Dolomite: Not sure whether this is the right thing I purchased or not. Please see the pictures.
> Q 4) Is it the right one? if so howmuch do I need to put in 90 GAL Tank?
> 
> Muriate of Potash: Not sure whether this is the right thing I purchased or not. Please see the pictures.
> Q 5) Is it the right one? if so howmuch do I need to put in 90 GAL Tank?
> 
> I really appriciate your help on this


I know you were talking to aaron but hopefully I can help answer a few of these.
A1) I sift the soil several times so its a fluffy light texture.
A2) a 90g, assuming it has a 48x18 footprint, would need about 30lbs of soil, give or take, to make a 1/2-3/4" layer. This is based on a very rough estimate that approx 5lbs cover a 1sq ft area.

A3) As long as its natural and not a polymer clay it will work. It's hard to say just by the looks. Usually when its labeled as pottery clay, it is the right stuff, modeling clay is not. However I would still do more research through the source.

A4) Actually, no. Check the analysis and I think you will find that it probably has calcium oxide in it.

That being said, though, I've used this type of pelletized lime in setups and had no noticeable effects because of it. The amount being used is very minute, mind you. A light dusting or sprinkling at best. The best kind to use (imo) can be found in powder form either through a pottery supply or at a vitamin supply place. Vitamin shoppe has it in powder form so you don't have to crush the pills.

A5) yes that is the right stuff. A light dusting is all it takes.


----------



## 5p4zz

I am at a halt on my collection of materials, since I can't get Muriate of Potash in Canada, its been banned.

Am I correct to assume, that it is the same as Potassium Chloride, then assume, that I could also use Potassium sulphate, I did some looking and it seems that its better for the plant roots as the sulfate form. But is it worse for the livestock? Would it substitute if I could find it.

Also, what % of potassium am I aiming for, 40%?

I could order Lab grade potassium chloride from a chemist supplier, but I'm not sure if that will be the right stuff either.


----------



## 5p4zz

also, when laying out the soil to dry, is it alright to strain the water? or do you want it to evaporate (into) the soil?


----------



## ShrimpNewbie

Hi aaron I was wondering where you got the 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand and how much it costs, I like the idea of the soil I'm going to try it for my first planted beta biotope, thanks for the idea by the way. and of course the instructions.


----------



## skaffen

Would this stuff be suitable for using dry for more contoured substrates? Would it hold a slope?


----------



## Byronicle

would using garden soil (rinsing with water) which has no additivies skip the whole wet/dry cycle process? since this process is to remove organic matter, i would assume that soil which has been laying in the garden for a month would be well removed of organics


----------



## joshp428

Is this cheaper than using commercial bagged substrates? (they aren't cheap for large tanks when you need like 3" of substrate).

Thanks a lot of this, I will have to try this out when I do a planted tank again.


----------



## JDodd

I know I might have missed this question already but thought I would ask again. I live in southern Indiana and where I live I have a lot of clay below my topsoil and in my top soil. Can I just use the clay that I have in the ground instead of the potters clay.

Thanks for any help. I definitely plan on using this forum to get my 30 gallon up and running.


----------



## davemonkey

The added clay is for iron content if I remember correctly, and to help control cloudiness by flocculating loose particles (I may have mis-used that term). If you want to depend on the clay from your natural soil, you might be better to just use the entire soil itself for this process without adding any purchased topsoil (about the top 6 inches or so if you have a clay to clay-loam type soil). I did this, but I still find my tank to be a little low on iron and very low on potassium. (I used Beaumont Clay in Chambers County, TX if that means anything to you...you can actually find out what soil you are looking at digging up and its properties by visiting USDA's "web soil survey" and selecting your area of interest and then generate a soil map for it).


----------



## JDodd

CtxD2—Crider-Frederick silt loams, karst is what it says I have. That was a cool website. It told me more than I knew about my area. I plan on just using the soil I have. The only other question I have is that I sit right on lithic bedrock or limestone. Will this cause issue even after mineralizing my soil? Also if I do have issues with iron an potassium what would you suggest to increase both. Thanks for all of your help.


----------



## davemonkey

Silt loam sounds perfect. That mean s a nice mix of clay, sand and silt, but just a bit more on the silty side. The "karst" refers to the limestone parent material. The only issue I would see is that you might have hard water in the tank. Unless you are trying to grow some rare or finicky plants, that should not give you many problems. You can add a thin layer of peat (make this a first layer, below your soil) and that will help soften and acidify the water, or at least nuetralize some of the hardness.

Use the mineralizing process as described in the first post. If you find yourself getting a defficiency, you can find several sources of iron and potassium supplement in liquid or solid form.


----------



## JDodd

Thanks for the help. I do have hard water so I am sure that might be an issue. Thanks for the help and happy planting.


----------



## ungratefulyouth

I've set up an aquarium with the mineralized topsoil recipe and the plants are doing wonderful but it has become poison to my shrimp and snails. In a smaller aquarium where I used the soil but not the dolomite lime or muriate of potash my critters are fine. Is lime or potash deadly for invertebrates? Anybody been able to keep invertebrates in a mineralized aquarium?

Eric


----------



## Michael

My shrimp and snails are fat and happy with MTS, KCL, and a hardscape of limestone rocks. Have you eliminated other possible causes for your problems with invertebrates?


----------



## ungratefulyouth

I'm struggling with it. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, less than 10ppm nitrates, 76 degrees. The tank had a copper treatment a year ago, but since then it's been gutted, cleaned, new filters, new substrate, etc. so I don't think that's it. I've spent some time on Google and can't find what else might be poisonous to invertebrates. ATM I'm just doing my water changes and hoping that whatever it is will work itself out in time, and will try again in a couple months.


----------



## dmachado

ungratefulyouth said:


> I've set up an aquarium with the mineralized topsoil recipe and the plants are doing wonderful but it has become poison to my shrimp and snails. In a smaller aquarium where I used the soil but not the dolomite lime or muriate of potash my critters are fine. Is lime or potash deadly for invertebrates? Anybody been able to keep invertebrates in a mineralized aquarium?
> 
> Eric


Hello,

I had the same problem a while ago, inverts kept dying, etc etc.

I have setup a mineralized aquarium (http://translate.google.com/transla...riofilia.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=154475) about a year ago, and only added any inverts after 6 months of maturation.

I am convinced that some ageing of the substrate is needed.

Good luck.


----------



## gorlokmat

first off. great thread. a lot of good info. im just getting my feet wet with this soil as a substrate thing. i was wondering if crushed oyster shell would be a decent substitute for the dolomite.

thanks


----------



## Nostromos

5p4zz said:


> I am at a halt on my collection of materials, since I can't get Muriate of Potash in Canada, its been banned.


I am not entirely sure where you have heard this. I called up 3 seperate garden centres here in Calgary and all of them carried Muriate of Potash for about $10/2kgs.

As that is more than I need I would be glad to mail you some for the cost of shipping.


----------



## barclaya

I will try this on my 10 gallons tank. will update if I have done.


----------



## AaronT

ungratefulyouth said:


> I've set up an aquarium with the mineralized topsoil recipe and the plants are doing wonderful but it has become poison to my shrimp and snails. In a smaller aquarium where I used the soil but not the dolomite lime or muriate of potash my critters are fine. Is lime or potash deadly for invertebrates? Anybody been able to keep invertebrates in a mineralized aquarium?
> 
> Eric


This can be an issue in new setups if too much KCL is used. Usually once it gets used up (3-6 months) it's no longer an issue. That said I've always kept snails and shrimp and not had problems.


----------



## AaronT

gorlokmat said:


> first off. great thread. a lot of good info. im just getting my feet wet with this soil as a substrate thing. i was wondering if crushed oyster shell would be a decent substitute for the dolomite.
> 
> thanks


The dolomite is ideal because it breaks down nice and slow and it contains Mg as well as Ca. If your water source has adequate hardness already you can simply skip the dolomite and you'll be fine.


----------



## AaronT

ShrimpNewbie said:


> Hi aaron I was wondering where you got the 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand and how much it costs, I like the idea of the soil I'm going to try it for my first planted beta biotope, thanks for the idea by the way. and of course the instructions.


Unfortunately, 3M stopped making this product.  The next closest thing is Spectraquartz, though I've yet to try it myself.


----------



## AaronT

Byronicle said:


> would using garden soil (rinsing with water) which has no additivies skip the whole wet/dry cycle process? since this process is to remove organic matter, i would assume that soil which has been laying in the garden for a month would be well removed of organics


Using garden soil with no additives will work, but would still need to be mineralized as it will still contain organics despite not having them added.


----------



## greenfish4

love this thread, I am in the process of making my first batch and its been fun. Its gonna be a big batch for a 240 gallon that I am gonna cap with eco complete left over from another aquarium. I have a couple of quick questions, I think I read through the whole thread hopefully i didn't miss them. I am curious as to how quick it is possible to complete the mineralization process. It is still hot here in ca 85+ and i can complete a wetting and drying cycle once a day. My question is would a week of wetting and drying be enough? The topsoil that I started with was already super mature. got it from a garden center were it had been sitting in an open bin for an extended period of time.


----------



## Jaap

Is mineralized soil substrate better than sera floredepot?


----------



## Nostromos

greenfish4 said:


> I am curious as to how quick it is possible to complete the mineralization process. It is still hot here in ca 85+ and i can complete a wetting and drying cycle once a day. My question is would a week of wetting and drying be enough?


It was my experience to give the soil a few days to soak in water before starting to dry it out again. My soil would dry in two days and then I would soak it for 3-4 days.

I imagine you can achieve the same results in a week by drying it in the day and soaking it at night by spraying down soil in the evening and letting it sit overnight.


----------



## AaronT

Nostromos said:


> It was my experience to give the soil a few days to soak in water before starting to dry it out again. My soil would dry in two days and then I would soak it for 3-4 days.
> 
> I imagine you can achieve the same results in a week by drying it in the day and soaking it at night by spraying down soil in the evening and letting it sit overnight.


Yes, that would work fine. Once the soil starts to feel and look like sandy silt and no longer has a strong odor when wet it is ready to use.


----------



## Nostromos

So as I mentioned in my last post I did have success in making the mineralized top soil, it took me about 3 weeks total but it turned out well. However, my first attempt at putting MTS in a tank with a sand cap was less than perfect and has resulted in me having to possibly redo the cap.

Where I feel I went wrong was after putting the in the MTS I rinsed my flourite black sand and then proceeded to spread it out in the tank. What happened was that the MTS was a little too soupy and when I tried to spread the wet sand overtop it sank partially in to the MTS soup creating spill over on top of the sand.

Now I have dirty sand that isnt black at all but a closer to a brown/grey color. There are thin spots in the sand where I can actually feel the MTS underneath, barely below the surface of the sand. So part of my problem was not enough sand it seems. There is still a distinct separation between the soil and cap for most of the tank but its not even across the bottom. I would like to actually have a black sand bottom instead of the brown sand it looks like right now.

I dont know what my next step should be. Should I drain the tank and try putting in more sand to get the cap a bit thicker? Should I try and do it with a full tank using the sock method or PVC pipe method?

Currently I am leaning towards draining the tank since there are no fish and just plants.


----------



## AaronT

Nostromos said:


> So as I mentioned in my last post I did have success in making the mineralized top soil, it took me about 3 weeks total but it turned out well. However, my first attempt at putting MTS in a tank with a sand cap was less than perfect and has resulted in me having to possibly redo the cap.
> 
> Where I feel I went wrong was after putting the in the MTS I rinsed my flourite black sand and then proceeded to spread it out in the tank. What happened was that the MTS was a little too soupy and when I tried to spread the wet sand overtop it sank partially in to the MTS soup creating spill over on top of the sand.
> 
> Now I have dirty sand that isnt black at all but a closer to a brown/grey color. There are thin spots in the sand where I can actually feel the MTS underneath, barely below the surface of the sand. So part of my problem was not enough sand it seems. There is still a distinct separation between the soil and cap for most of the tank but its not even across the bottom. I would like to actually have a black sand bottom instead of the brown sand it looks like right now.
> 
> I dont know what my next step should be. Should I drain the tank and try putting in more sand to get the cap a bit thicker? Should I try and do it with a full tank using the sock method or PVC pipe method?
> 
> Currently I am leaning towards draining the tank since there are no fish and just plants.


Either method should work just fine. The Flourite Black sand is quite fine and that could be the reason for the sinking into the mud. My favorite was 3M Colorquartz T-Grade, but they stopped making it and the only product close to it isn't available in my area.


----------



## Jim Miller

My FBS sits atop my MTS without difficulty. My cap is about 1-2" thick. How thick is yours? Mine was capped immediately after putting in the MTS while it was still the consistency of cake batter.

Jim


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## Nostromos

I picked up what I thought was enough flourite sand but it ended up giving me about 3/4-1 inch of substrate depending on the area of the tank as I had such difficulty spreading it around evenly. 

I am going to drain the tank and attempt to spread out the new sand while it is dry and hopefully get better results.

On the topic of colorquartz and spectraquartz the availability in Canada is astonishingly bad. I called the makers of spectraquartz and they didnt even know if they had a distributor in Canada. I called as many places as I could looking for any remaining colorquartz with equally bad luck. I wasnt even able to find a single bag of something like coal slag (black diamond or black beauty) and I am from a city with over a million people.


----------



## greenfish4

Got a quick question and one observation, would it be okay to use a bag of humus and a bag of worm castings mixed into my MTS? I intend to screen them as well as wet and dry them several times. Also, the last time i was up to date on this thread me and a few other people were trying to shortcut the process by wetting the soil on the plastic it was laying on. What I found with this is that it will get the bacteria going (soil turns grey-white) but it does not do a good job of leaching out contaminants and organic material. I decided to put my mts back into the bin and wet it and was amazed out how much organic material was floating to the surface.


----------



## AaronT

greenfish4 said:


> Got a quick question and one observation, would it be okay to use a bag of humus and a bag of worm castings mixed into my MTS? I intend to screen them as well as wet and dry them several times. Also, the last time i was up to date on this thread me and a few other people were trying to shortcut the process by wetting the soil on the plastic it was laying on. What I found with this is that it will get the bacteria going (soil turns grey-white) but it does not do a good job of leaching out contaminants and organic material. I decided to put my mts back into the bin and wet it and was amazed out how much organic material was floating to the surface.


Adding the humus is counterproductive to trying to reduce organic matter so I wouldn't bother. I do have a friend who has used worm castings underneath his Aquasoil with good success. However, if MTS is your method of choice I would leave them out as well.

That's a good point about the soaking cycle. It does also serve the purpose of removing chemicals that may be in the soil.


----------



## Nostromos

Here is an update on my previous issues with the MTS and sand cap. 

My first attempt didnt go so well with not a thick enough cap and the MTS mixing a lot with the black sand making a brown mess and cloudy tank. 

Last night I pretty much tore down the tank completely. I took out the plants and hardscape, and even soaked up any water in the bottom of the tank. It was clear where there was not a thick enough sand cap as well as the areas where the MTS was uneven. I did my best to even things out before adding more sand on top.


Afterwards the tank came out better than I had ever expected given my failed first attempt. The water was crystal clear from the start and the plants really pop against the black sand background. I just hope that the MTS is spread out evenly enough under the sand cap to allow for all plants to grow strong. The tank looks great and I am quite happy with it.

I think a big key to all of this was adding the sand to the tank DRY. Previously, I added the sand to the tank immediately after rinsing it which I believed caused some of my problems.


----------



## D9Vin

So I got some soil soaking right now. Woot. I live in west Texas and the USDA soil profile describes this region as 'amarillo loam'. There is lots of red clay around here, I was wondering if I could use this instead of pottery clay. I am pretty certain that its got plenty of iron, but I am not sure if it will bind the soil well...any thoughts, soil experts?


----------



## AaronT

D9Vin said:


> So I got some soil soaking right now. Woot. I live in west Texas and the USDA soil profile describes this region as 'amarillo loam'. There is lots of red clay around here, I was wondering if I could use this instead of pottery clay. I am pretty certain that its got plenty of iron, but I am not sure if it will bind the soil well...any thoughts, soil experts?


Sometimes the only way to find out is to try it. Is this a small tank you could easily redo if it doesn't work out?


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## D9Vin

Pretty good size, at 75 gallons, 4'x2'. I am also making it for my friends 20 gallon, I may let him guinea pig it for me, haha. But really, what is the worst that could happen? In theory as long as I had a good cap, which I am planning on a gentle slope down to 2" in the front, it shouldn't muddy the water too much right? I would just have to take extra super care in uprooting and planting. I wish I could find out what pottery clay is actually made from...


----------



## D9Vin

Did a little more research and I am fairly certain that it will work, so I am going to go for it. I will post some results on here, it will be a while though, just started the process.


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## Snydaleid

I tried reading through all the posts to see if I could find an answer to my question but I couldn't find it. Perhaps I missed it but do you have to wait to add fish after you've put it all together and filled the tank?


----------



## AaronT

Snydaleid said:


> I tried reading through all the posts to see if I could find an answer to my question but I couldn't find it. Perhaps I missed it but do you have to wait to add fish after you've put it all together and filled the tank?


I don't, but waiting for invertebrates is probably a good idea.


----------



## Snydaleid

AaronT said:


> I don't, but waiting for invertebrates is probably a good idea.


How long would you wait for inverts?


----------



## freemandnj973

Hey everyone im Don not new to planted tanks i did them for about 3 years before i switched to reef tanks in 2007 but im back after seeing some contest tanks using mts. my wife went to walmart yesterday and picked up a bag of earthgro topsoil and since its been raining in jersey almost every other day the 40lb bag was about 90lbs. so i called up to complain about my wife receiving no help from any employee and asked them how long has the dirt been sitting there like that and the manager for that department said about 2 months cause its their least selling brand. so that got me thinking is it possible that the soil has been going through the mineralization process since its been damp then in direct sunlight for about 2 months?

I ask because when i opened my bag i filled a 10 gallon rubbermaid halfway with dirt and water, sifted about 3lbs of rocks out of 20lbs of dirt, flooded and drained twice i was left with whats in the pics. there was very little in the way of organic material and had absolutely no smell it has the exact same texture as the muck i would pick up from the bottom of streams and lakes when i used to fish. so is this what im looking for?


----------



## HerbieBH

I'm in the process of mineralizing topsoil for the first time. Is it a problem to use Potassium Sulfate (KSO4) instead of muriate of Potash (KCL)?
Thanks much.


----------



## AaronT

Snydaleid said:


> How long would you wait for inverts?


4-6 weeks ought to be good. They're so much more sensitive to any chemicals that might be in the soil that didn't get rinsed out.


----------



## AaronT

freemandnj973 said:


> Hey everyone im Don not new to planted tanks i did them for about 3 years before i switched to reef tanks in 2007 but im back after seeing some contest tanks using mts. my wife went to walmart yesterday and picked up a bag of earthgro topsoil and since its been raining in jersey almost every other day the 40lb bag was about 90lbs. so i called up to complain about my wife receiving no help from any employee and asked them how long has the dirt been sitting there like that and the manager for that department said about 2 months cause its their least selling brand. so that got me thinking is it possible that the soil has been going through the mineralization process since its been damp then in direct sunlight for about 2 months?
> 
> I ask because when i opened my bag i filled a 10 gallon rubbermaid halfway with dirt and water, sifted about 3lbs of rocks out of 20lbs of dirt, flooded and drained twice i was left with whats in the pics. there was very little in the way of organic material and had absolutely no smell it has the exact same texture as the muck i would pick up from the bottom of streams and lakes when i used to fish. so is this what im looking for?


Yeah, that's pretty much what it looks like, though I'd be inclined to go through at least a couple wet dry cycles if for anything to rinse any chemicals that might be in the soil still.


----------



## AaronT

HerbieBH said:


> I'm in the process of mineralizing topsoil for the first time. Is it a problem to use Potassium Sulfate (KSO4) instead of muriate of Potash (KCL)?
> Thanks much.


I believe the concern is with the sulfate part of the equation. It could cause an issue with hydrogen sulfide formation in the substrate. You can always omit it altogether and dose potassium or add root tabs after the tank is planted.


----------



## HerbieBH

AaronT said:


> I believe the concern is with the sulfate part of the equation. It could cause an issue with hydrogen sulfide formation in the substrate. You can always omit it altogether and dose potassium or add root tabs after the tank is planted.


Thanks much AaronT. I'll keep looking for the Muriate of Potash (I have a at least another week of mineralizing as the weather is getting cooler) and if I can't find any I will take your other suggestions.


----------



## AaronT

I get mine from Southern States. I suspect Tractor Supply has it too.


----------



## fjord

D9Vin,

In answer to your question about “what pottery clay is actually made from”, I’m afraid you opened yourself up on that one. Pottery clay is made from clay, which is a sedimentary material formed from the decomposition of rock. Moving beyond the smart @*# phase, it’s actually a good question that can yield a complicated answer. Because of the audience here, I’ll answer generally, but first a bit of history. In early days, potters sought out reserves of clay to meet their needs for forming vessels. Some clays are more plastic or elastic than others, and clay in its primitive form, i.e. right from the earth, don’t typically meet all the needs of pottery making. Potters preferences vary widely, and different firing temperatures and environments, and forming techniques will play an equally large part on choices for different clays. A potter who forms vessels on a wheel will choose a more plastic clay, while one who uses hand-building technique will generally choose a less plastic clay. Clays are commonly found in most places, and vary widely in composition and impurities content. Some fire to very high temperatures without bloating or deforming, while others mature at lower temperatures in a kiln. Porcelain is a very refined type of clay which is typically not very plastic, and is free of impurities. What we will be looking for here is a clay body with a high iron content, and that is easily found in most stoneware or terra cotta clays. Georgia Lizella clay is an example of a primitive clay which is actually quite nice for wheel work, and has a very high iron content. If one were to choose a ceramic supply house to purchase from, I would suggest you ask for REDART clay, which will be available in dry form, sold by the pound, and is high in iron. Avoid porcelain, white or gray stoneware clays as they will have no, or low iron content.

Modern pottery clays are actually a blend of many different clays which are selected and combined to improve plasticity, firing temperature, enhance color, etc. Most stoneware clays have frits or silica added to control melting at a specific temperature, and have grog added to aid in shrinkage. Grog is previously fired clay which has been pulverized. Finer clays are added to increase plasticity, such as ball clay or bentonite. Bentonite is an extremely fine clay which is difficult to dissolve, and is often used for lining ponds so they will hold water. Finer particle clays will yield a more mucky clay, but for this purpose, most any clay, whether local or purchased, should yield positive results. Just search out a clay body which is red in color and you will have a generous supply of iron in the substrate.
Knowing that commercial potters clay can be difficult to find, I might suggest searching for an educational supply store. Oftentimes they carry clay for classroom use and will sell in smaller quantities. You might also call a ceramics shop and see if they sell clay. Incidentally, they will also carry dolomite.

I’ve just grazed the surface on this topic, but will gladly answer any questions that I can. And since we are on the subject, I’m just curious to know if anyone has tried to use Akadama clay in the substrate. For those who might not know, Akadama is clay from Japan which is highly prized as a soil additive for cultivation of bonsai. It is available through bonsai suppliers and is also available on eBay. Different types exist, some of which are fired (and in my mind would reduce the chance of cloudiness in the water column). The fired variety, however, probably would not provide the deflocculation needed in the MTS. I believe most akadama has been baked and might be more akin to kitty litter in it’s base composition, and would probably decompose when wet. Feedback please…

Mike


----------



## D9Vin

Thank you mike, for that informative response. I did a bit of research, found some nice red clay, and 'purified' it by mixing with water in a bucket, dried it and crushed it. I am a bit worried about random bad stuff in there. Like maybe lead of something else that I may not want in my aquarium. Any thoughts?


----------



## fjord

I doubt you would find lead in commercially available clay because of its toxic properties. In my experience, lead is sometimes available in red low fire glazes, but not clay. If it were present, it would be labeled as having lead, but as it can be absorbed through the skin, then it would be highly doubtful you would ever find it in commercial clay bodies.

If you were to collect clay from a contaminated site, it might be present. For instance, lead was commonly found in paint. If the area is downstream of a paint shop where brushes and equipment are cleaned, or near an auto paint and body shop, then find another site. Depending on where the clay was collected, it may or may not have any toxins. I'd suggest common sense be used in selecting a site. Don't collect near roadways or in areas where heavy metals might contaminate the ground water.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have further questions.


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## Jane in Upton

AaronT said:


> That's true. Using too much [KCl] can inhibit the growth of good bacteria in the soil, however the amount we are using is pretty small. Using K2SO4 can cause issues too though. The sulfate could make it easier for hydrogen sulfide to form in the substrate, which is just as bad, if not worse.
> 
> I'm planing to try greensand in the next tank I set up. I'll let you all know how it turns out.
> http://homeharvest.com/orgfertespoma.htm


Hi Aaron,

have you done any setups using a sprinkle of Greensand on the bottom to supplement potassium? I use this in my mix for begonias (tropical house plants) because they're heavy feeders (macro and micro) and they seem to like this.

My personal experience with K2SO4 is that it can cause problems, and more trouble than benefit. I used a sprinkle in the bottom of a standard soil-underlayer (not mineralized) tank awhile back, and even though my layers were not that deep, the tank still produced a LOT of H2S - phew!

Any other thoughts on the Greensand? Would you suggest a similar light sprinkle as shown in your How-To pictures of the other amendments (Muriate of Potash and Dolomite powder)?

Thanks very much!
-Jane


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## jeff5347

Hey Aaron, I was wondering if anyone or you have done this. I live in Mass so the weather is not so helpful now in drying the dirt out. I let it sit downstairs in the furnace room but it didnt give off enough radiant heat to help dry and has been sittting wet for a week. So last night i decided to scoop the dirt into pans to put in the oven. i Had about 5 pans and set them im the oven at 350 or and they all dried out. So im on my second wet/dry cycle. This still exposes the dirt to wet and dry so im assuming this is still a viable option for ppl that dont have good weather outside. In your opinion does this still help mineralize the soil or does letting it sit outside give it a better advantage of some sort?


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## AbbeysDad

Excellently detailed write up!

Okay, I'm just a little confused. I have yet to do a 'dirt tank substrate' or a MTS, but I'm very interested.
I've done a lot of organic gardening over the years and I well know the value in feeding the soil to feed the plants. Why is it necessary to 'burn off' the organics. After all, if when the tank is established, with fish and food waste, we should be introducing decaying organics back in and developing an eco-system that feeds the plants...right? It seems to me that mineralized top soil is pretty inorganic and not much better than fertilized sand (or a sand/clay mix).
I also wonder about this 1" MTS depth (with a 1-2" sand/gravel cover). Is the concern strictly about anaerobic bacteria producing harmful gases? Isn't there a way (say with plant roots and california black worms in conjunction with malaysian trumpet snails) to aerate the soil mix. After all, I wouldn't put an inch of lifeless soil with a 1-2" lifeless cap over concrete and expect to grow much. Don't aquatic plants have roots that extend more than an inch or two?

...So I'm wondering if a fine layer of screened compost (or better still vermicompost) between the MTS layer and the sand/fine gravel top cap wouldn't kick start the ecology???


----------



## AbbeysDad

I'm going to propose a theory here in hopes of some expert feedback. I think the fear of the deep substrate relative to anaerobic bacteria producing harmful gases (like hydrogen sulfide) is unfounded when MTS is used. My experiences suggest to me that anaerobic bacteria only produces foul substances when it breaks down organic matter. There is little/no organic matter in MTS.
I think instead of merely 1", there could be 2-3" of MTS, covered with 1-2" of fine gravel or sand.
Further, this ecosystem would surely benefit from California black worms (or tubiflex) as well as Malaysian Trumpet Snails, etc. (Significant numbers of living plants is presumed). Plant and fish waste would be decomposed in the upper layer by aerobic bacteria into plant usable nutrients. The only potential problem issue would be if the substrate was mixed such that mulm/detritus got mixed into the deep layers of the MTS. But this is something we would not want to do anyway.

Thoughts regarding a deeper MTS substrate???


----------



## vicdad999999

Hello, i am on my 3rd soak as I live in maine the drying process took a little over 2 months after the 2nd soak. I expect it to be longer on the 3rd drying as february and march tend to be harsh up here. I have a rather silly question. Ive never had a planted tank before. After filling the tank with water, do i need to let it cycle like a fish tank? Or do I immediatly add the plants? Thank you for any answer.


----------



## Michael

Hi vicdad, and welcome to APC!

Yes, you should plant the tank immediately. Depending on your soil and other factors, you probably need to let the tank cycle before adding animals, but the plants will accelerate this.


----------



## Binxer

Anybody have any pure dolomite they could ship to me? I have 25 lbs of Terra cotta red clay if you wanted to do an exchange, otherwise I'd be glad to pay for shipping. Thanks


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## ChadRamsey

someone said that you could substitute laterite for the potting clay. Will the laterite emulsify like the potting clay to help thicken the soil?


----------



## DeChaoOrdo

ChadRamsey said:


> someone said that you could substitute laterite for the potting clay. Will the laterite emulsify like the potting clay to help thicken the soil?


Laterite should provide a good flocculant as a substitute for potting clay, and doesn't run the risk of containing polymer clays and preservatives that potting clay brings. Unfortunately many of the commercially available laterites are partially calcined(cooked) so don't readily provide the available iron in pottery clay. If you intend to buy laterite, try to find one that is in powder form and not granule form to reduce the chances its been calcined.


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## aa108

can i put dry fertilizers such as Potassium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, and Iron Chelate in my soil?


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## Skinskin72

If I were adding large rocks to the scape, would I do this before adding the mud, or after capping the mud?


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## plantkeeper

aa108 said:


> can i put dry fertilizers such as Potassium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, and Iron Chelate in my soil?


These will dissolve into the water column and will not have the same slow release of nutrients that you would desire from a substrate like this. There are alternatives to provide these macro nutrients, just not recommended in the forms you have posted with this substrate.


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## plantkeeper

Skinskin72 said:


> If I were adding large rocks to the scape, would I do this before adding the mud, or after capping the mud?


Your hardscape should be set after you apply the capping substrate. The "muddy fun" mix should go in right after you dust the tank with the potash and dolomite.


----------



## Skinskin72

I've been doing a little research on my area's soil. I live in southern Virginia where any thing below 4 to 6 inches is know as Virginia red clay. Here's a little info I ran across at the VA DEQ:

"The A Horizon, or surface layer, is usually darker than the lower layers. It is most often loose and crumbly and contains more organic matter than deeper layers. In the A Horizon, water soaks or leaches into the soil with ease. Clay and other dense compounds are missing; they have been carried by water deeper into the soil profile.

The B Horizon is the subsoil. Subsoils are usually light colored and dense and contain little organic matter. Materials washed or "leached" from the A Horizon collect in the B Horizon. Therefore, this horizon holds more clay, iron and other mineral compounds."

I wonder how well it would work if I use the local red clay subsoil, and mix in store bought top soil. Go through the procedures, and leave the clay addition out. What do you guys think? Would the clay content be too much? Below is a photo of the red clay subsoil.


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## bpjets

started soaking my top soil today im using hapi grow from lowes 1.40 for a 40 lb bag


----------



## plantkeeper

Skinskin72 said:


> I've been doing a little research on my area's soil. I live in southern Virginia where any thing below 4 to 6 inches is know as Virginia red clay. Here's a little info I ran across at the VA DEQ:
> 
> "The A Horizon, or surface layer, is usually darker than the lower layers. It is most often loose and crumbly and contains more organic matter than deeper layers. In the A Horizon, water soaks or leaches into the soil with ease. Clay and other dense compounds are missing; they have been carried by water deeper into the soil profile.
> 
> The B Horizon is the subsoil. Subsoils are usually light colored and dense and contain little organic matter. Materials washed or "leached" from the A Horizon collect in the B Horizon. Therefore, this horizon holds more clay, iron and other mineral compounds."
> 
> I wonder how well it would work if I use the local red clay subsoil, and mix in store bought top soil. Go through the procedures, and leave the clay addition out. What do you guys think? Would the clay content be too much? Below is a photo of the red clay subsoil.


As long as you think its not contaminated with fertilizers or anything like that, give it a try. Maybe wash it a few times during the wet dry cycle with the topsoil?


----------



## bpjets

so would this works for the potash??!


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## bpjets

i also did i see you could get this at a vitamin shop? i was looking back threw the pages and didnt see it but i was for sure i saw something about there being something you could get at vitamin shop?


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## Skinskin72

plantkeeper said:


> As long as you think its not contaminated with fertilizers or anything like that, give it a try. Maybe wash it a few times during the wet dry cycle with the topsoil?


From what I gathered the subsoil contains around 20% -30% clay, and all the minerals from the topsoil that have leached through rain fall. It contains very little organic matter. My thought was to mainly use the local subsoil, but add some top soil to cut down on the clay percentage. I would still do the wet / dry process to eliminate organics. I wonder what percentages of topsoil, subsoil to use?


----------



## plantkeeper

bpjets said:


> so would this works for the potash??!


Yep.


----------



## plantkeeper

Skinskin72 said:


> From what I gathered the subsoil contains around 20% -30% clay, and all the minerals from the topsoil that have leached through rain fall. It contains very little organic matter. My thought was to mainly use the local subsoil, but add some top soil to cut down on the clay percentage. I would still do the wet / dry process to eliminate organics. I wonder what percentages of topsoil, subsoil to use?


Sounds like a plan. Go through a couple wet dry cycles with it. If it has no odor at the end, I am going to say you have something worth trying out.


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## Lovin Fish

Wow! Thank you for your time putting this very informative thread up! I am planning several low-tech tanks and was going to use "Low tech planted tank the Walstad way" but after reading (a lot) I think your method will suit me best.
Thank you! If you have anymore tips tailored to a low-tech planted tank using you method for the substrate please give me a shout! I am new to fish keeping and am only limited to what I can find on the web as well as through others experiences (since I haven't any experience as of yet)

I do have one question:
If you were planning a river style tank in a 75 gallon, but wanted to keep it low tech and planted, would this method work? I want to use dark sand for my top substrate, and I know a lot of plants won't fair well in a river-like set-up...but I thought perhaps you might know of a way to make it work. 
Thank you for you time!


----------



## aa108

can i use api's first layer laterite soil? I got something called mexican pottery by amaco, but it seems like it is modelling clay so I don't think I can find any other clay related items that works except for laterite from petsmart.


----------



## Bwaller fish

I am redoing my 90 gal planted tank. I plan on draining the water and placing fish into containers with the original water as well as existing plants. After redoing substratea and placing the plants back and refilling with most of the original water, will it be ok to place my fish back into the tank? My current substrate is mixture of laterite and gravel. I have CO 2 and good lighting. My tank has bee set up like this for a couple of years but want to improve my substrate as my plants aren't as good as I would like.


----------



## markhem

Hi Aaron, or anyone who can speak to this;

How long would you estimate the minerals will be available for uptake to the plants, for instance in the tank you used in your example? Years perhaps? 

How are the plants and water conditions in that tank now?

Is this method compatible with adding DIY Osmocote (a la Pushak) clay balls around the roots, or are fertilized clay balls overkill?

Same question for EI approach. Can I do EI at a lower dosage level, or is it completely unnecessary?

Thanks for maintaining the thread that never dies!


----------



## AaronT

markhem said:


> Hi Aaron, or anyone who can speak to this;
> 
> How long would you estimate the minerals will be available for uptake to the plants, for instance in the tank you used in your example? Years perhaps?
> 
> How are the plants and water conditions in that tank now?
> 
> Is this method compatible with adding DIY Osmocote (a la Pushak) clay balls around the roots, or are fertilized clay balls overkill?
> 
> Same question for EI approach. Can I do EI at a lower dosage level, or is it completely unnecessary?
> 
> Thanks for maintaining the thread that never dies!


I know of MS tanks that are 20 years old and still growing plants well. It seems potassium is the limiting nutrient. Dosing it after water changes seems to work well for me.


----------



## kaaayd

Ok. I began the process a few days ago. I wasn't thinking about pollen/seeds falling when I started, but that's whats happening now. Will this ruin my soil? I'm only on the first drying cycle. 

Doing this indoors is just not possible for me. If the pollen is a problem, can I fill the tank when the soil is ready, then fill with water and drain it a few times to remove it or something? Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks.


----------



## Michael

The same thing has happened to me and the pollen caused no problems.


----------



## AaronT

Michael said:


> The same thing has happened to me and the pollen caused no problems.


Agreed. Just skim off what you can. If you do the sifting of the soil when it's done it gets out any big chunks of sticks, leaves, etc... that are left.


----------



## kaaayd

Nice. Thanks for the reply guys!


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## Krios

I registered here since I saw this to be a very intersting topic.

My tank has a footprint of 29"x11". I want 1" MTS and 1.5" cap.

I've got a few questions for Aaron or anyone knowledgable about MTS. Some may seem stupid/trivial but I just want to be sure.

1. Approximately how much unmineralized topsoil should I need? I would appreciate it if you could answer in lbs. I live in the tropical areas of Asia and we have a fairly big backyard and a couple of compost mounds(not pits) where we throw away biodegradable kitchen wastes(fruits, veggies) and leaves. I could use the soil underneath the compost, right?

2. Can I use river sand as my cap? Please give me an estimate(also in lbs) of the amount i need for capping and bordering.

3. What is the average particle size of the 3M colorquartz you used?

4. Can I soak the soil in a bucket instead of a rectangular container?

5. I do not have any dolomite source so can I use crushed corals instead?

6. When planting, do I stick the plants down to the MTS or just the gravel?

7. You said something about dosing K after every water change. Is this KCL like the one sprinkled on the tank bottom or is this something else?


----------



## AaronT

Krios said:


> I registered here since I saw this to be a very intersting topic.
> 
> My tank has a footprint of 29"x11". I want 1" MTS and 1.5" cap.
> 
> I've got a few questions for Aaron or anyone knowledgable about MTS. Some may seem stupid/trivial but I just want to be sure.
> 
> 1. Approximately how much unmineralized topsoil should I need? I would appreciate it if you could answer in lbs. I live in the tropical areas of Asia and we have a fairly big backyard and a couple of compost mounds(not pits) where we throw away biodegradable kitchen wastes(fruits, veggies) and leaves. I could use the soil underneath the compost, right?
> 
> 2. Can I use river sand as my cap? Please give me an estimate(also in lbs) of the amount i need for capping and bordering.
> 
> 3. What is the average particle size of the 3M colorquartz you used?
> 
> 4. Can I soak the soil in a bucket instead of a rectangular container?
> 
> 5. I do not have any dolomite source so can I use crushed corals instead?
> 
> 6. When planting, do I stick the plants down to the MTS or just the gravel?
> 
> 7. You said something about dosing K after every water change. Is this KCL like the one sprinkled on the tank bottom or is this something else?


I'm glad you liked the article. You don't need to use deeper than 3/4" layer of MTS.

1. It depends a little bit. Don't use the compost. You want dirt like in your yard. Probably about 20 lbs. is enough to start.

2. Yes, you can use river sand. Probably another 20 lbs.

3. The 3M sand I used (it's no longer made here ) was about 2-3mm in diameter.

4. yes

5. just go without it

6. plant them as they should be planted. Rosette plants should be planted with roots only the substrate. Stems should be planted as far down as you like.

7. No, dose K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) in the water. Do not do this until you notice the plants begin to need it. They will start to look pale after several months.


----------



## Krios

Thanks a LOT! 

Now I'll be on my way to switching from plain crap gravel to MTS.

Another question: 
Will MTS go together well with Diana Walstad's method?


----------



## AaronT

Krios said:


> Will MTS go together well with Diana Walstad's method?


No, they are different.


----------



## Krios

Can I use humus?


----------



## kaaayd

Aaron,

I believe my soil is ready. I've done the soak/dry process 5 times (got it to dry quickly by sifting most of the stuff beforehand, and spreading it REALLY thin). When it was last wet, it did have an odor, but it smelled like wet sand. Now that it is dry, I don't really smell anything. Is this ready to go? 

Also, would using DIY co2 in the beginning be wise? I'm still pretty new to all of this and would hate to mess this up. This will be my 2nd planted tank, but the first tank I'm actually planning and putting real thought into.


----------



## AaronT

kaaayd said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I believe my soil is ready. I've done the soak/dry process 5 times (got it to dry quickly by sifting most of the stuff beforehand, and spreading it REALLY thin). When it was last wet, it did have an odor, but it smelled like wet sand. Now that it is dry, I don't really smell anything. Is this ready to go?
> 
> Also, would using DIY co2 in the beginning be wise? I'm still pretty new to all of this and would hate to mess this up. This will be my 2nd planted tank, but the first tank I'm actually planning and putting real thought into.


I'm sure it's probably ready to go by now.

Using DIY CO2 is just fine so long as your lighting isn't too high. If you have high lighting use pressurized CO2. Also, with DIY make sure to take precautions to keep the mixture from somehow entering your tank.


----------



## kaaayd

Thanks a lot! I really appreciate the article and the answers to my questions.


----------



## backflipfrontflip

I am going to try this method for my upcoming 50G low tech tank so thanks for the inspiration Aaron.

How is this different from the Walstad method as that style also uses a soil substrate? Is it that the soil is added without the soaking and drying process?

What is the advantage of the soaking/ drying instead of the Walstad method?

This may have been asked before in this thread, but it is a REALLY long thread and I couldn't find it in there.

Thanks


----------



## JohnnyR711

Hi Aaron,

I decided to try and mix what sounded like 2 great ideas: Mineralized soil and the Dry Start Method.
I have a 40 gal breeder tank and I filled it with about 1 - 2 " of MTS just the way you laid it out in the insructions and I topped it off with Estes black aguarium gravel. I set it up with a large piece of mopani wood, 2 medium slate caves and 2 pieces of slate buried and I planted some mosses, marsilea quad, staurogyne repens and dwarf hairgrass for the front of the tank via the DSM misting the plants and substrate with conditioned water and excel mix. I had 2 - 39 watt T5HO 500K and 6700K lights on this tank got 10 hours a day. After a couple of weeks I noticed that nearly all of the plants turned brown with a couple turning cotton white. I have since removed them all and noticed s slight pungent odor so I wonder if I should just fill the tank and plant as usual? Thanks.


----------



## ewittenb

Do you have any idea what the shelf-life of Mineralized Top Soil is?

The reason I ask, is that I've been planning a new 120 tank, but am still about two months from putting water in it. Its September and I live in New Hampshire. If I start now, I can create the MTS with drying cycles outside, but the MTS will be ready before the tank, and I would have to store the dirt for a month or so. Is there a risk of bullding up organics again during that time?

Timing the MTS with the tank readiness would require waiting until October when weather is considerably cooler and there are the falling leaves and some pine needles to keep out of the mixture. I'm not optimisitic that October is a good month for outdoor drying, so if the MTS can't be stored for a month or so, then I think I'm looking at an indoor process which is less appealing.

What do you recommend?

As an aside, I assume I need to be careful with the product choice for the plastic drying tarp to avoid additives that kill bacteria so that stuff won't ultimately end up in the tank. Is a painters drop cloth a good choice?

Thanks


----------



## kalarisamurai

Hi Aaron, Thanks a lot for the great article. I spent most of my day going through the pages of this thread. What an interesting read...

I want to try your method but I want to ask you about a challenge I am facing. I'm in Bangalore and what is readily available is red soil, and few garden stores prepare potting mix with red soil and organic manure. I was wondering if it would work. I asked in a few stores today and they only have red soil and stuff that they have made out of red soil. I see that in many gardens, this kind of mix is used for normal plants. I could still look around for normal black/brown soil but I wanted to know your opinion (and of other experts here) on this.

Thanks a lot in advance.


----------



## AaronT

backflipfrontflip said:


> I am going to try this method for my upcoming 50G low tech tank so thanks for the inspiration Aaron.
> 
> How is this different from the Walstad method as that style also uses a soil substrate? Is it that the soil is added without the soaking and drying process?
> 
> What is the advantage of the soaking/ drying instead of the Walstad method?
> 
> This may have been asked before in this thread, but it is a REALLY long thread and I couldn't find it in there.
> 
> Thanks


The Walstad method relies on the breakdown of organic matter in the soil to provide adequate CO2 for plant growth. In the case of MTS we are mineralizing those organics to minimize the risk of the buildup of toxic gasses that can result from the decomposition process. It also allows one to use higher lighting and injected CO2 if one so desires though neither is by any means necessary to enjoy a tank with MTS substrate.


----------



## AaronT

JohnnyR711 said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I decided to try and mix what sounded like 2 great ideas: Mineralized soil and the Dry Start Method.
> I have a 40 gal breeder tank and I filled it with about 1 - 2 " of MTS just the way you laid it out in the insructions and I topped it off with Estes black aguarium gravel. I set it up with a large piece of mopani wood, 2 medium slate caves and 2 pieces of slate buried and I planted some mosses, marsilea quad, staurogyne repens and dwarf hairgrass for the front of the tank via the DSM misting the plants and substrate with conditioned water and excel mix. I had 2 - 39 watt T5HO 500K and 6700K lights on this tank got 10 hours a day. After a couple of weeks I noticed that nearly all of the plants turned brown with a couple turning cotton white. I have since removed them all and noticed s slight pungent odor so I wonder if I should just fill the tank and plant as usual? Thanks.


This is late to the party, but I've never used the DSM myself. It sounds like maybe you had too much humidity.


----------



## AaronT

ewittenb said:


> Do you have any idea what the shelf-life of Mineralized Top Soil is?
> 
> The reason I ask, is that I've been planning a new 120 tank, but am still about two months from putting water in it. Its September and I live in New Hampshire. If I start now, I can create the MTS with drying cycles outside, but the MTS will be ready before the tank, and I would have to store the dirt for a month or so. Is there a risk of bullding up organics again during that time?
> 
> Timing the MTS with the tank readiness would require waiting until October when weather is considerably cooler and there are the falling leaves and some pine needles to keep out of the mixture. I'm not optimisitic that October is a good month for outdoor drying, so if the MTS can't be stored for a month or so, then I think I'm looking at an indoor process which is less appealing.
> 
> What do you recommend?
> 
> As an aside, I assume I need to be careful with the product choice for the plastic drying tarp to avoid additives that kill bacteria so that stuff won't ultimately end up in the tank. Is a painters drop cloth a good choice?
> 
> Thanks


You can store it for all eternity if you so desire.


----------



## AaronT

kalarisamurai said:


> Hi Aaron, Thanks a lot for the great article. I spent most of my day going through the pages of this thread. What an interesting read...
> 
> I want to try your method but I want to ask you about a challenge I am facing. I'm in Bangalore and what is readily available is red soil, and few garden stores prepare potting mix with red soil and organic manure. I was wondering if it would work. I asked in a few stores today and they only have red soil and stuff that they have made out of red soil. I see that in many gardens, this kind of mix is used for normal plants. I could still look around for normal black/brown soil but I wanted to know your opinion (and of other experts here) on this.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance.


Is it safe to assume the soil is red due to clay content? If so, it might be too much clay.

Do you have any rivers, streams or creeks nearby? You could always use some of the sediment from one of those.


----------



## kalarisamurai

AaronT said:


> Is it safe to assume the soil is red due to clay content? If so, it might be too much clay.
> 
> Do you have any rivers, streams or creeks nearby? You could always use some of the sediment from one of those.


Thanks Aaron. I looked around in that direction today. I managed to get some black soil that one nursery had collected from some lake nearby and they use it for their lotuses. I hope that would work. I also have some red soil to mix a little to add some iron.

What I also bought when I was at the nursery was two bottles of macro and micro nutrients. I just bought it and thought I would ask you if it would be a good idea to add some. Both are liquid and the instructions are to add it with water to the soil. I'm guessing that adding it in one of the soaking rounds and then drying it would add these to the soil effectively. Am I correct?

These are the ingredients of these bottles:
Macro Nutrients: 6 Macro Nutrients - nitrogen, phosperous, and potassium.
Micro Nutrients: Sulphur, magnesium, Boron, Zinc, Copper, Molybdenum, iron, chloride and sodium

I will add these if needed only if you say it is a good idea since I am not very good at understanding these things. 

Looking forward to a great weekend working on this.


----------



## AaronT

You shouldn't need the liquid fertilizers. You can add them to the mud before you cap it with substrate to give the tank a jump start, but I wouldn't use much. 

Once the tank is established for a few months you can dose the water column some as well if you so desire.


----------



## bveister

Has anyone had success doing this anywhere in the North where it starts to get really cold this time of year?


----------



## AaronT

bveister said:


> Has anyone had success doing this anywhere in the North where it starts to get really cold this time of year?


You could do it indoors in a basement or garage. It takes longer in the cold.


----------



## bveister

The problem is I don't have that kind of room anywhere indoors...


----------



## AaronT

bveister said:


> The problem is I don't have that kind of room anywhere indoors...


How about accommodating family member's homes?  I make mine at my folk's place.


----------



## bveister

I mean that could work but I was almost thinking about setting up a tent in my backyard and doing it there. It would probably look like a science expedition in the North pole because I think we'll have a heavy snowfall this winter here in Western NY. I have this heater unit that runs on propane that could keep it just warm enough to where the dirt doesn't freeze. I mean I'm in no rush, it's just lack of room.


----------



## bveister

Aaron when I initially rinse off the soil and go to dump it...the water will be black/brown mud water right? I just wanna make sure I'm not losing any good pieces of the soil?


----------



## JeffyFunk

bveister said:


> Aaron when I initially rinse off the soil and go to dump it...the water will be black/brown mud water right? I just wanna make sure I'm not losing any good pieces of the soil?


No, the water should ideally be clear. I think you are not letting the soil settle long enough. The initial wetting/rinse should allow u to identity floating particulate like wood pieces that are not soil components; These pieces should be scooped out and removed. If your soil contains a lot of silt, then your soil will simply take longer to settle as these are the smallest soil particles. If you identify other components that do not look like soil (like rocks), you can always stir u the soil and scoop them out with a large net. The soil particles should then settle to the bottom so you can easily decant a lot of the water off of the top. I'd let your soil settle several hours or overnight initially.


----------



## bveister

Alright thanks Jeffy, I appreciate the quick feedback since I'm in the process right now.


----------



## AaronT

bveister said:


> Alright thanks Jeffy, I appreciate the quick feedback since I'm in the process right now.


Jeff is right. It's best to wait for it to clear. The soaking is really just to do water changes to remove any harmful chemicals such as pesticides that might be in the soil.


----------



## Joe_Shafe

Would aragonite be a good replacement for dolomite because I can't seem to find dolomite anywhere but my lfs has aragonite. Also since the 3M gravel is tough to find is there any others you'd suggest with a good CEC, preferably black thanks.


----------



## AaronT

Joe_Shafe said:


> Would aragonite be a good replacement for dolomite because I can't seem to find dolomite anywhere but my lfs has aragonite. Also since the 3M gravel is tough to find is there any others you'd suggest with a good CEC, preferably black thanks.


Well, the 3M doesn't have hardly any CEC to speak of. The CEC in this case is in the clay you add to the mineralized topsoil. 3M stopped making the sand I used to use. Estes now makes one called ceramaquartz that is the same product, but it has limited distribution. Black Flourite would be a good cap, not the sand, the regular black one. The sand is too fine in my opinion.

Aragonite will also add carbonate hardness, which you'll want to avoid.


----------



## Joe_Shafe

Any cheaper black gravels with good cec.. If not could I just do an inert one and be good with the clay?


----------



## AaronT

Joe_Shafe said:


> Any cheaper black gravels with good cec.. If not could I just do an inert one and be good with the clay?


The only one I know of is the ceramaquartz. It doesn't have hardly any CEC though. Regular gravel is fine to use. You can also use Turface, Safe-T-Sorb or Soilmaster Select.


----------



## rasprer

Hey Aaron,

I have one problem. No store around my place has any topsoil at this time of the year. What i have with me however is MGOC, MG enriched potting mix. I thought of mineralizing these but due to the high organic content, it might take forever. Now, I had this ridiculous idea.. what if I mineralized ADA Amazonia Powder aqua soil? it just came to mind because they mentioned that Amazonia has some nutrients in it and I have seen shrimp bowls that only have that aqua soil and the plants growing fine.

What are your opinions on this? Is mineralizing the aqua soil a good/bad idea? Should I just mineralize the MGOC instead?


----------



## AaronT

I would just mineralize the miracle grow soil. You'd have to crush up the Aquasoil and it would be quite tedious. You could also pre-cycle the Aquasoil if you don't want to deal with the initial ammonia spike. Simply put it in a bucket and keep it wet and keep changing the water.


----------



## rasprer

AaronT said:


> I would just mineralize the miracle grow soil. You'd have to crush up the Aquasoil and it would be quite tedious. You could also pre-cycle the Aquasoil if you don't want to deal with the initial ammonia spike. Simply put it in a bucket and keep it wet and keep changing the water.


thanks aaron! based on your exp, how many wet to dry cycles did you have to do with MGOC compared to reg topsoil?


----------



## AaronT

rasprer said:


> thanks aaron! based on your exp, how many wet to dry cycles did you have to do with MGOC compared to reg topsoil?


Enough. Seriously, though I've never used MG soil as my Home Depot always has the topsoil. Do it until it doesn't smell bad when wet and exposed to air.


----------



## NayR:D

This is a really good detailed write up. I've never heard of anyone using this method here in UK, I'm going to give it a try on a little tank and show it in a journal on the UK forum(UKAPS)

The thing is we are big on dosing over here and people are more likely to go for an inert substrate and dose the water column heavily with E.I. 

Your pictures proves its effective and as they say 'there's more than one way to skin a corpse in a ditch' ...is that the saying?


----------



## AaronT

NayR:D said:


> This is a really good detailed write up. I've never heard of anyone using this method here in UK, I'm going to give it a try on a little tank and show it in a journal on the UK forum(UKAPS)
> 
> The thing is we are big on dosing over here and people are more likely to go for an inert substrate and dose the water column heavily with E.I.
> 
> Your pictures proves its effective and as they say 'there's more than one way to skin a corpse in a ditch' ...is that the saying?


Oh my, not sure about skinning corpses....

Sometimes I do still dose in my MTS tanks, but not usually in the first 3-6 months. There are a few plants that I find do better with some ferts in the water column so it broadens my ability to keep more species that way.

Start the journal here too if you would and let us know how it goes.


----------



## NayR:D

I will do Aaron. I'm going to get my current tank a journal here too. 

Do you treat an MTS tank as any other height tech tank. In which you would perform weekly water changes, run pressurised co2 and have mid-high light(no direct sunlight)

I have tried to read though as many pages as possible on my tapatalk app but its a tedious job so I hope I'm not asking you something you have answered many many times.

Thanks


----------



## AaronT

NayR:D said:


> I will do Aaron. I'm going to get my current tank a journal here too.
> 
> Do you treat an MTS tank as any other height tech tank. In which you would perform weekly water changes, run pressurised co2 and have mid-high light(no direct sunlight)
> 
> I have tried to read though as many pages as possible on my tapatalk app but its a tedious job so I hope I'm not asking you something you have answered many many times.
> 
> Thanks


I do mine, but you don't have to. I run med-high light and pressurized CO2. Water changes are more important in the beginning month or so. Doing frequent small ones is better than large ones as it will help the tank cycle faster.


----------



## Jc_d1

AaronT said:


> _ My ADA 90-P aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate	_


I LOVE this tank! What is the grass like plant? Would it still work for Corys, everything I've read on them says sand because of there sensitive barbells, but I'd think 'grass' would be just as gentle? Thanks!


----------



## aquarium kid

Hey Aaron or anyone else who can answer.

I am new planted aquariums an I am planning to swap the sand out of my existing tank for a plant friendly substrate. I would like to try MTS but I have a few questions.

I would like to try a few of the additives from the EHS soil method any thoughts

Azomite
soft rock phosphate
maybe sul-po-mag
peat, since this is going to be a non co2 setup the plants need a source of carbon, any thoughts?

I still plan to use the dolomite, murate of potash, and the clay.

Thanks in advance


----------



## aquarium kid

Hey Aaron or anyone else who can answer.

I am new planted aquariums an I am planning to swap the sand out of my existing tank for a plant friendly substrate. I would like to try MTS but I have a few questions.

I would like to try a few of the additives from the EHS soil method any thoughts are appreciated

Azomite
maybe greensand
soft rock phosphate
maybe sul-po-mag
peat, since this is going to be a non co2 setup the plants need a source of carbon, any thoughts?

I still plan to use the dolomite, murate of potash, and the clay.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or opinions


----------



## AaronT

I've used the greensand. I didnt' really notice it helped much. The potassium it offered still wasn't enough and I had to eventually fertilize the water column. I do run high light though so your low-tech setup might not show a need. 

The peat won't last either. Just get plenty of fish and feed them well and you'll have enough CO2 for a low-tech setup.


----------



## Gomer

I'm returning back to planted tanks after many years of being away from it. After a bit of reading, and chatting with Sean, think I've convinced myself to use MTS over aquasoil. It'll be a rock/wood/sand front style scape. No stems. Pretty much crypts and Epiphytes...things that dont' need replanting on short time scales. ...though I am tempted to plant some marsilia minuta on the sand and sand/MTS transition and let it creep out over the sand in time. I don't want to do any major re-planting for years if all goes well  Just trimming and a little thinning.

Does that all sound sane or recommendations otherwise?

Is this type of sand appropriate or should I look at courser sand?
http://greenleafaquariums.com/planted-aquarium-substrate/gla-nature-sand.html

Also, corys. Do they dig too much with an MTS type tank? I know loaches will. 
How about MTS (snails)? Are they problematic?

Thanks!!


----------



## aquarium kid

Thanks for the reply Aaron

Any thoughts on the azomite, soft rock phosphate, and sul-po-mag?


----------



## aquarium kid

Thanks for the reply Aaron

Any thoughts on the azomite, soft rock phosphate, and sul-po-mag?

Any suggestions for plants on this setup?


----------



## AaronT

Gomer said:


> I'm returning back to planted tanks after many years of being away from it. After a bit of reading, and chatting with Sean, think I've convinced myself to use MTS over aquasoil. It'll be a rock/wood/sand front style scape. No stems. Pretty much crypts and Epiphytes...things that dont' need replanting on short time scales. ...though I am tempted to plant some marsilia minuta on the sand and sand/MTS transition and let it creep out over the sand in time. I don't want to do any major re-planting for years if all goes well  Just trimming and a little thinning.
> 
> Does that all sound sane or recommendations otherwise?
> 
> Is this type of sand appropriate or should I look at courser sand?
> http://greenleafaquariums.com/planted-aquarium-substrate/gla-nature-sand.html
> 
> Also, corys. Do they dig too much with an MTS type tank? I know loaches will.
> How about MTS (snails)? Are they problematic?
> 
> Thanks!!


Dude! Welcome back man.  That sand should be fine. I use pool filter sand (Lighthouse brand) available at most swimming pool supply stores for decorative sand.

You should be able to keep such a tank going indefinitely I would think. Sean has tanks that are running 15 years+ now on the original substrate. You will need to add potassium at some point, but not a lot and that's about it. Running CO2 is still recommended, but not necessary.

I'm not a fan of MTS snails myself. They tend to take over. My favorites are ramshorns or nerites. Loaches and cories are both fine to keep in MTS. The real trouble makers are fish like dwarf cichlids that burrow into the sand to make their breeding areas.


----------



## AaronT

aquarium kid said:


> Thanks for the reply Aaron
> 
> Any thoughts on the azomite, soft rock phosphate, and sul-po-mag?
> 
> Any suggestions for plants on this setup?


Sorry, I'm not familiar with any of those.


----------



## Gomer

Thanks for the feedback Aaron  German rams should be fine though, right? I thought. I don't recall mine every playing in the soil (way back when).


----------



## AaronT

Gomer said:


> Thanks for the feedback Aaron  German rams should be fine though, right? I thought. I don't recall mine every playing in the soil (way back when).


Oh yeah, they should be just fine.


----------



## Gomer

A local place has DecoRock play sand. This is a sample of it
http://i.imgur.com/50JrXTn.jpg

Is this too fine for a cap? If so, should I be looking for something more like one of these offerings (Peace River?)?
http://caribsea.com/itempage_freshwatersubstrate_instantaquarium.htm


----------



## AaronT

No, don't use playsand. Go with something a bit coarser.

The Peace River (1-2 mm) should be just right.


----------



## Gomer

sounds good. I was picking up KCl and Dolomite from the local nursery and saw it. Was cheap so was curious :-D I


----------



## AaronT

Make sure the dolomite you got is dolomite and not dolomitic lime. They'll sell you the latter and call it dolomite, but it's really just limestone with some dolomite in it.


----------



## Gomer

Doh! I wouldn't have known Looks like I'll be making a return.


----------



## Gomer

started the mineralization process this evening with the $1.69 bag of topsoil from home depot. Definitely has manure in it (stinks of it) and had lots of wood chunks (bark?). Took advantage of buoyancy and got rid off all that bark on the first rinse. We'll see how it goes  The cold outside might slow things down. We'll see.


----------



## NaturalPerfection

Hey good work Aaron. I have a few questions to add to the list.

I just bought some Pfertz tablets which lead me to look for substates , (They're going out of business!) That being said, I was wondering if perhaps grinding them into the soil mixture might prove beneficial, or would they lose activity over their regular duration of a few months? Or is planting them whole immediately beneath the cap preferable? On top of the cap? Or not at all?  I also bought some of Pfertz's micronutrients? Will these ever become necessary/beneficial? 

Secondly, is the CaribSea substrate going to be beneficial to the plants? Or will it only affect the water quality with regards to fish? Sort of unrelated, but how long do the active ingredients in the CaribSea stuff last?

Lastly, and very unrelated, and open to anyone, as are the others, can you direct me to a site/page where I can learn about how to CO2 dose properly without killing off my fish?

Thanks for any help in advance!

All the best, Alex


----------



## Gomer

Alex, Carib sea substrates have no nutrients. Stuff like fluoramax and eco complete are more like nutrient sponges. they hold onto nutrients for plants. This thread is the other side, it is directly generating nutrient substrated. Different approaches 

As for CO2, here is a lot of techncical info 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/10/freshwater

And here is a good thread on how to measure CO2 (short version, drop checker or pH + chart)
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...s-discussions/62377-best-way-measure-co2.html


----------



## NaturalPerfection

Awesome, I will be following Aaron's procedure soon and will grind up a few tablets and sprinkle over the dolomite potash layer. I'm thinking this will only be of a temporary benefit but perhaps a boost at the start will be helpful. I'll post word when the substrate is set. 
Thanks for the cheap and effective plans.


----------



## AaronT

@NaturalPerfection

I would put the root tabs on the bottom of the tank with the potash and dolomite sprinkling. Space them out as they specify or crush up a few and sprinkle here and there. You shouldn't ever need to dose micros, but it also won't hurt anything. You will eventually need to dose some potassium once the potash runs out in 3-6 months. 

CO2 is a lot about feel and how strong your lighting is. Start small (1 bubble per second) and slowly increase it day by day until you see pearling on the plants midway through the photoperiod. 

The Caribsea is fine to use, but it won't add much in the way of nutrients. I've used everything under the sun as a cap and they all work pretty well.


----------



## NaturalPerfection

Awesome, now I know what pearling is. As much as I want to discuss my CO2 situation, I will keep on topic. Top soil preparation begins today.


----------



## Gomer

Well, I ended up ordering 1-2 mm gravel from petco while on sale with free shipping...which I'll be returning once it gets to me (at local petco for full credit). 

I was on a hike on Saturday and noticed how good a lot of local materials were. Lots of appropriate rock which has weathered away ranging from ..rocks, to silt. The ants here also do a good job of fractionating when they dig their holes and pull up near uniform sized 1.5-2 mm gravel and pile it for you. So, between that, and the dry arroyos, I got a nice blend of sand/gravel size and color. I figure if I blend that carefully with small and larger rocks, I can transition a nice, more natural looking cap onto the MTS. 

The only downside, is rising away the silt/organic (which is basically aged, dry grass and brush specs). Did most of that yesterday. Will get a fine screen to wash away the rest of the silt/very fine sand. I should probably take pictures


----------



## AaronT

Gomer said:


> Well, I ended up ordering 1-2 mm gravel from petco while on sale with free shipping...which I'll be returning once it gets to me (at local petco for full credit).
> 
> I was on a hike on Saturday and noticed how good a lot of local materials were. Lots of appropriate rock which has weathered away ranging from ..rocks, to silt. The ants here also do a good job of fractionating when they dig their holes and pull up near uniform sized 1.5-2 mm gravel and pile it for you. So, between that, and the dry arroyos, I got a nice blend of sand/gravel size and color. I figure if I blend that carefully with small and larger rocks, I can transition a nice, more natural looking cap onto the MTS.
> 
> The only downside, is rising away the silt/organic (which is basically aged, dry grass and brush specs). Did most of that yesterday. Will get a fine screen to wash away the rest of the silt/very fine sand. I should probably take pictures


Replacement nylon window screening works really well for that. I lay it on top of a chicken wire screen and gently rinse over it and you're left with just the larger grains of sand / gravel.


----------



## Gomer

thanks for the tip  I got lots of 1/2" welded wire screen that I can use for a base.
I was going to use the 1/2" wire anyways for a final sift of the MTS.


----------



## SBS

Hi All,
Just registered to say thank you for the detailed article.
I accidentally came across it while searching for info on substrates and got hooked up.

I am setting up a new tank at the moment and I am on the second wash/dry cycle of the topsoil.
I've got a few questions and I was wondering if anyone can help.
I found dolomite powder(100% CaMg(CO3)2 and I've got potassium chloride KCl as white powder too.
As clay, all I could get is Earthenware red clay, will this do?

I've got LED lightning over the 5f tank. It's 3 strips with 15 LEDs each, one strip is low light, 2 is low to medium light and all 3 at one time are high light. I would rather prefer a low tech, non-CO2 method so I was wondering what would be the best light level to set in my case, or at least as a start?
The plants are going to be crypts, amazon swords, hydrophilla species, some bulb plants, some anubias and javefern and floating plants. And are floating plants advisable since there will be little water column dosing? Can I supplement the floating plants if they show deficiencies or that would cause more issues in this type of setup?

Once planted, I won't have fish at the start but the filters will be fully cycled so I wonder should I keep supplementing the filters with ammonia while waiting on the tank to settle and the plants to pickup. Is it advisable to add some liquid carbon just in the beginning to give them a jump start and then eventually stop the carbon?
Also, should I be doing water changes in the beginning while there's no fish, or should I let it balance out regardless of algae for example? In some places I read to leave it, others say to do water changes if there's algae. And in the long term is changing some water weekly too much in a low tech or how do you guys maintain the water quality in such a setup?

And I am really sorry  for the thousand questions I just posted, but I unfortunately have one more, what is the smallest substrate grain size advisable to prevent too much anaerobic pockets developing. I'd ideally like something suitable for bottom feeders as well so I am trying to combine the two together.

Thanks a million.


----------



## SBS

Also, the soil I got doesn't smell at all of anything, whether wet or dry and has very gritty texture. I sifted it after the first dry and it's a type of brownish powder like but when wet, a brownish layer settles with a black thinner one on top.


----------



## AaronT

It sounds as though your soil is ready to go.. Do you have a link to the clay you purchased? 

If you don't plan to run CO2 or dose liquid carbon I see no need to do so in the beginning and then stop. I would go with the medium lighting scheme. If algae persists even after the tank has matured you might consider lowering the lighting even more.


----------



## bpb

Aaron I'm sure this has been covered but I can't seem to find many specifics. Quick overview of basics. My tank 75 gallon, 2xt5ho light, topsoil is done mineralizing, will be planting very heavily to start. Water (seems odd, but it is true, we have weird water) 1dGh, 22dKh, 8.2 Ph. I have clay and muriate of potash ready, I'll be capping with turface. No co2 currently. Some people swear you can't grow plants in those water parameters, but many of us have for years, just never done MTS before

Planning on doing about a 1" layer of MTS mud and 2-3" of turface. It'll be a fairly deep substrate but I want plenty of good root growth

Specifically how much muriate of potash do I need for my tank size?

I don't have dolomite. Can't get it. I DO have plenty of spare aragonite, and Epsom salt though. Can those be used as an alternative. And if so, specifically how much would it be smart to start with? 

Ready to roll on this in a day or two so I want to make sure all my ducks are in a row. Thanks!


----------



## AaronT

bpb said:


> Aaron I'm sure this has been covered but I can't seem to find many specifics. Quick overview of basics. My tank 75 gallon, 2xt5ho light, topsoil is done mineralizing, will be planting very heavily to start. Water (seems odd, but it is true, we have weird water) 1dGh, 22dKh, 8.2 Ph. I have clay and muriate of potash ready, I'll be capping with turface. No co2 currently. Some people swear you can't grow plants in those water parameters, but many of us have for years, just never done MTS before
> 
> Planning on doing about a 1" layer of MTS mud and 2-3" of turface. It'll be a fairly deep substrate but I want plenty of good root growth
> 
> Specifically how much muriate of potash do I need for my tank size?
> 
> I don't have dolomite. Can't get it. I DO have plenty of spare aragonite, and Epsom salt though. Can those be used as an alternative. And if so, specifically how much would it be smart to start with?
> 
> Ready to roll on this in a day or two so I want to make sure all my ducks are in a row. Thanks!


With a pH that high just leave out the dolomite.

Sprinkle enough muriate of potash to dust the bottom of the tank, but still be able to see through it quite well as in the picture. I've never really derived a weight / area formula or anything like that.

It sounds like you've got a good plan in place.


----------



## Aqualibra

Hi Aaron, thanks for keeping this great thread going, for years!

I'm new to planted aquariums and have just set up my first planted tank, low-tech Walstad style aquarium, and now I can't stop thinking about the next tank I want to set up. I will be using MTS\Flourite substrate in a hi-tech set up this time around and I've already started the mineralization process on 2 bags of topsoil. 

I had a question about substrate depth. I read through this entire thread and there are several references to 1/2" to 1" for the soil and 1-2" for the cap that is recommended, but what is the maximum cap height I can get away with regular Fluorite Black? Will I run into issues with the substrate becoming anaerobic if the cap is over 4-5+"?

I have this "Rolling Hills" aquascape in my head.


----------



## AaronT

You should be fine using 4-5" of Flourite if you want to. Keep in mind that some plant's roots don't reach down that far so if you're thinking of rolling hills of Hemianthus callitrichoides you might consider also using a nutrient rich cap like Fluval Stratum or Aquasoil. If you'll be using something like stems or Crypts in the deeper part it should be just fine.


----------



## Aqualibra

I was thinking of stems and larger rooted plants in the deeper areas but was just wondering about the max height I could get away with. Thanks for the response and the suggestions. Much appreciated!


----------



## SBS

Hi Aaron. Sorry to bother you again and thanks for your previous help.
I am almost finished mineralizing mine. The weather here is horrible so I had to do it inside.
I was just wondering, does the colour of the mineralized soil matter? The one on your picture looks kind of grey. Mine is like brown silt looking stuff.

I am also having trouble calculating the amount of clay to add since half of the soil or at least certain amount has disappeared after mineralizing and sifting and I've no way of measuring it. I kind of divided it in parts and and I'll add the relevant part in clay to achieve 5-10%. Are there any downfalls of putting slightly more or slightly less clay by accident?

Thanks in advance. Very much appreciated.


----------



## tanksalot

Here's a concept when using Turface that you might find useful. As a former reef-keeper, I learned the Ferric Hydroxide was a phosphorous--absorbing material that was impregnated onto an inert medium (like Turface). The key was it had to say moist, because if it dried out, the ferric hydroxide oxidized, and turned into ferric oxide (rust).

Using that property, I created a "rusty Turface", which provided all the benefits of Turface along with those of laterite, without the laterite dust and mess. Here's what I did: Took a 50 lb. bag of Turface and saturated it with a strong solution of Ferric Chloride. Turned it into a reddish mush that had the consistency of oatmeal. Then I added a gallon or two of clear ammonia, turning the ferric chloride-soaked Turface into ferric hydroxide impregnated Turface. I then screened out the (now deep red) Turface, and dried it thoroughly. To make sure I had ferric oxide, I put the Turface in flower pots and baked it in my wood stove.

The end result is a dark red, stable, iron-rich Turface which behaves just like Turface but has the benefit of a darker red color and available root iron in the anaerobic conditions of an aquarium substrated.

This is probably more than you're interested in doing right now, but I thought I'd throw this idea out there as food for thought.

Tanksalot


----------



## cah925

I'm getting back into planted tanks after a few years break. I set up a MTS tank about 2 weeks ago and I'm having a lot of "burps" from the soil. Is this Hydrogen sulfide bubbling out? Will this eventually work itself out or do I need to start over? Not sure if it's relevant, but I added some Bacter 100 to help jump start bacteria colonies.
I have no fish so I can patiently wait this out if needed.


----------



## SBS

My understanding is that the bubbles could be due to a number of reasons. One is hydrogen sulfide of course, especially if you put too tick of a soil layer with a thick cap made of too fine particles that don't promote oxygen exchange ,or the plants haven't grown good roots yet to do that job. You may need plants like swords and crypts that develop good root system.
The left over organics in the soil, will also start a fast decomposition, creating excessive organic carbon, but in a low oxygen enviroment such as as a soil layer, this promotes creation of hydrogen sulfide. So theoretically, in time the initial stage of decomposition will decrease, decreasing both the production of organic carbon and hydrogen sulfide and by that time your plants should have grown into the substrate enough to promote more oxygenated conditions to prevent on another hand another dangerous process associated with low organic carbon and low oxygen, such as the conversion of nitrAte back to nitrIte and ammonia for example causing spikes. I suppose you can just poke with something to see if it will come out and whether it has any smell. But some bubbles coming out wouldn't be an immediate danger and should be part of the process.
I wouldn't put any heterotrophic bottled bacteria, because bacteria of this family is responsible for hydrogen sulfide creation so you may make it worse. You need different type of bacteria establishing once more oxygenated conditions are created.

Another possibility would be that the plants are moving oxygen and CO2 up to the surface already.


----------



## cah925

My soil layer is no more than 1" and I capped with pool filter sand.
I was home most of the day today and didn't see any bubbles while the lights were out. I can't say exactly when the bubbles started, but I noticed them a couple hours after lights came on.


----------



## SBS

How old is the setup? Any big decomposition and anoxic conditions would take a bit longer to happen, like in many weeks rather than in the beginning of the tank being setup.
It's really impossible to say what type of bubbles they are. See if they come out from certain area of the substrate, where particular plants are, or possibly other decor or all over the place? What happens if you press against the substrate or just poke it with a stick? Does it smell of rotten egg? From what I see, many folks are experiencing the same thing. How bad and how long, depends on the soil and each setup.


----------



## cah925

My setup is about 3 weeks old. If I poke it, I can get bubbles from all areas, but most of the daily bubbles come from the back and sides where I have stems and crypts. I haven't noticed any smell so I'm not terribly concerned. My ammonia and nitrite levels have come down a lot but not completely gone yet.


----------



## AaronT

If there's no smell I wouldn't worry about it. Hydrogen sulfide pockets would stink badly. Did you wet the soil before you added it? It can take a while to thoroughly soak if you add it dry, cap it and then add water.


----------



## cah925

I made a nice mud slurry about the consistency of pudding prior to adding to the tank. I just stuck my nose over the water and no bad smell, just your normal fish tank smell. I guess I'll relax and let nature do it's thing in my tank. Thanks.


----------



## Swordfish - algae farmer

I'm about to begin my 1st MTS tank. 2nd time planted. I'm going to experiment on a 125 I bought on ebay first, which will be basically walstad with some extra filtration. 

The prize for me will be ending up with a 72 bowfront filled with a beautiful jungle of healthy green aquarium plants on a well thought out and interesting landscape, centered in my main living space. My wife and I recentlly took a trip to a special forest and a bunch of these almost blue/purple mountain stones just fell into my truck while we were driving home ! Imagine the luck !
Anyway, I want them to be the centerpiece along with some interesting driftwood. I like the idea of caves and interesting features for the fish to interact with. 

Before discovering this thread in my research, I was torn between eco-complete and Flourite black sand. Now I'm torn on them as a cap to Aaron's excellent MTS recipe. Kudos man for the inspiration and knowledge. It's cool how long you've been teaching people to do this. Frankly I feel lucky that I found you guys. I've read this entire thread over the course of 2 weeks and I feel pretty comfortable with the concepts and procedures. 

I'm maybe 3 days into the mineralization of my soil and I've been sifting it fairly frequently to continue reducing the organic footprint when I lay it down over the potash and dolomite. I'm shocked how much organic material and pebbles were hiding in what looked dry, like an almost entirely organic-free topsoil. I bought half a cubic yard from a small company nested in the middle of orange county that normally sells to landscaping companies. Since I don't have a truck, I just filled several bins with as much as I could lift into the mdx and brought it home.

I'm looking at an Aquatec regulator, 20lbs CO2 tank, a beautiful dropchecker from greenleafaquariums.com, Fluval 406 w/inline heater and infusion, and recently bought T5HO 24wx4 lighting which currently exists to keep me in shape scrubbing algae on the weekends. I know, turn the lights down. My wife and I like to watch them swim though.

Tank will be totally sanitized before I begin this. Bleach bath, no reused components except a couple of hydor nano powerheads. I want to introduce as few organisms unselected by me as possible. No fish to begin with, they're all going into the walstad tank. 

I'm super excited about this and will post again as I have cool experiences with this or have questions for Aaron and the other experts. Thanks again !

-Swordfish


----------



## AaronT

Sounds like a really nice project Swordfish. Be sure to start a journal thread so we can watch it evolve.


----------



## Swordfish - algae farmer

Edit: I've got the 4x54watt model, not the 24 watt.


----------



## Biomarine2000

Hello everyone. I'm in the process of setting up my first planted. It so happens to be a 47 gallon bowfront. I saw this post on how to make mineralized soil substrate on another forum and it sold me. I had done a ton of reading and this one just seemed to me the best to DIY. I love DIY. There is so much satisfaction in it. I want to thank Aaron for the awesome write up. I'll be sure to update on how the soil turns out. It's currently in my driveway drying. I don't know what kind of lighting to use yet or the plants ill have but I do know it will start out low tech. 

Again, thanks Aaron for the great write up.


----------



## AaronT

Biomarine2000 said:


> Hello everyone. I'm in the process of setting up my first planted. It so happens to be a 47 gallon bowfront. I saw this post on how to make mineralized soil substrate on another forum and it sold me. I had done a ton of reading and this one just seemed to me the best to DIY. I love DIY. There is so much satisfaction in it. I want to thank Aaron for the awesome write up. I'll be sure to update on how the soil turns out. It's currently in my driveway drying. I don't know what kind of lighting to use yet or the plants ill have but I do know it will start out low tech.
> 
> Again, thanks Aaron for the great write up.


I'm glad you're going to give it a try. I think you'll be really pleased with the results. Also, welcome to APC.


----------



## fbm224

Hello all, 

I want to make my first planted tank with soil, and I like this method a lot, but I'm thinking to make it with a twist, and I would appreciate your opinions: I want to add Laterite instead of clay, and also add some Vermiculite. 

I also have a question regarding the clay and or slit present in my soil, I have rinsed the soil serveral times, but it seems to me that the slit is also behaving like a coloidal and it never settles down, so the water is always black-brown, and is a large % of the soil I got. I can feel the sand in the botom and is spongy like Aaron said. Should I keep rinsing it? 

Thank you,
have a nice week


----------



## AaronT

fbm224 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I want to make my first planted tank with soil, and I like this method a lot, but I'm thinking to make it with a twist, and I would appreciate your opinions: I want to add Laterite instead of clay, and also add some Vermiculite.
> 
> I also have a question regarding the clay and or slit present in my soil, I have rinsed the soil serveral times, but it seems to me that the slit is also behaving like a coloidal and it never settles down, so the water is always black-brown, and is a large % of the soil I got. I can feel the sand in the botom and is spongy like Aaron said. Should I keep rinsing it?
> 
> Thank you,
> have a nice week


Laterite is fine to use instead of clay. It is clay. I would crush it up into a powder and mix it dry with the soil. Isn't vermiculite those little white balls in potting soil? They would get uprooted and float all over your tank. I would leave that out.

It sounds like your soil is ready. Once you add the clay you won't have that issue and also remember you'll be capping the soil with a much coarser gravel or sand.


----------



## kareen

Hi All, I just find a place That sell The Dolomite if any one needs it. go to www.pawtasticpet.com Thay sell The Estes Ultra Reef Dolomite its under saltwater gravel 50lbs $17.99 I just order same. Thanks


----------



## SBS

I just wanted to mention that I followed Aaron's method and finally setup the tank a week ago.
I can't comment on the growth of my plants because for totally different reasons I had a set back and they melted(growing back slowly) and I am also still waiting for the proper lights to arrive so currently just keeping the plants alive with minimal light. But for a start after setting up the tank and filling it up I got 0 clouding, and the water came out crystal clear. Mineralizing the soil certainly has it's good sides. I even moved a few plants afterwards and it didn't manage to make a mess at all. It's like the soil isn't there. And even with my current 0.3W light there's new growth already. I can't wait to see what happens when I get a bit more light in there.
My water stats(Gh, Kh ) didn't change much at all so far either so the dolomite is staying put at the bottom I guess. And I've got no ammonia or nitrIte at all readable but my filters were cycled prior to putting the soil in.

Good luck to all. I loved the challenge and don't regret the hard work prior.


----------



## khumquat

Hi. I love this thread! I see that you can use LAterite instead of clay, which I like because I stock that in my store... I'm new to planted tanks, but have been keeping fresh and reef tanks for 15+ years. So, I have bare topsoil that is rinse/drying as we speak and when it comes time to make the "mud", what can be used in place of Dolomite?? I am doing up a 125 for Discus or Angels (haven't decided yet) and want to get the tank filled within the next 2 weeks. Thanks!


----------



## aquarium kid

Hey Aaron thanks for the awesome thread. I'm getting ready to set up my first planted tank and plant to use the MTS process for it. One question I have is about the soil. Instead of using topsoil I was wondering if I could use the silty mud stuff thats on the bottom of the lake at my cabin. The plants in the lake go crazy in the stuff and grow big and fast. Could I take some of this stuff and mineralize it.


----------



## s2b

Hello, Aaron. Thanks so much for this ultra-helpful post. I'm a newbie trying to be extra careful. I'm getting ready to set up my first planted tank and have a few questions:

I'm not so good at eyeballing things. Would it be best to measure ratio of clay to topsoil by weight (scale) or by volume (measuring cup)?

Is it okay to mix topsoil with leaf mold (product description says: produced by a very slow breakdown of leaves from trees and shrubs into a rich humus....long slow composting period...screened to ensure consistency and size-1" 3/8" This product is rich in beneficial microbes....)? Since its already humus would it cause algae blooms, or would it bind to minerals and make them more available to plants?

Do you think this substrate would work with a dry start method?

Thanks again for providing this information!


----------



## AaronT

What size tank are you setting up s2b? 

It's okay to add a very light dusting of the leaf mold to get bacteria started, but in general organics are what we're trying to minimize with this process. 

Yes, it can be used to do a dry start method.


----------



## s2b

I'm setting up a 6.5 gallon long for a betta and a few shrimp or mini corycats. I want to do a SE Asia biotope (I know, corys are South American, but I love them so!) with cryptocorynes and prevent melt.

In chapter VIII, Diana wrote that "Investigators have repeatedly shown that aquatic plants grow much better in sediment or soil than in sand [31,32]. Aquatic botanists may use fine-textured inorganic sediments containing mostly silt [27] or terrestrial soils rich in organic matter [28]. For example, 6 species of submerged plants grew 2 to 7 times faster in a mixture of sand, horticultural soil and leaf mould (equal parts) than in pure sand [28]. And one investigator [33] used a 3 parts soil and 1 part leaf mould to successfully grow 'difficult' Cryptocoryne."

I wondered why, so I did a little research and learned that one of the causes of melt is the sudden decrease of CO2 when transitioning from emersed to submerged, and leaf mold will release lots of CO2 into the water.

I'm considering mixing 1 part leaf mold with 3 parts mineralized cheap topsoil in Sean Murphy's soil method. Then I'd do a DSM with a gradual increase in water level over a month or two so the crypts have time to get used to pulling CO2 from the substrate.

Does this sound crazy? It's all theoretical based on bits of information from different sources. I don't plan to set up the tank until mid/late July so there's plenty of time to change or tweak it.

VAL


----------



## JeffyFunk

s2b said:


> I'm setting up a 6.5 gallon long for a betta and a few shrimp or mini corycats. I want to do a SE Asia biotope (I know, corys are South American, but I love them so!) with cryptocorynes and prevent melt....
> 
> I'm considering mixing 1 part leaf mold with 3 parts mineralized cheap topsoil in Sean Murphy's soil method. Then I'd do a DSM with a gradual increase in water level over a month or two so the crypts have time to get used to pulling CO2 from the substrate.
> 
> Does this sound crazy? It's all theoretical based on bits of information from different sources. I don't plan to set up the tank until mid/late July so there's plenty of time to change or tweak it.
> 
> VAL


Yes, i do think this sounds crazy. The reason i say that is because the 'difficult' crypts mentioned in the literature are some of the more uncommon 'black water' crypts. These crypts have adapted to growing in more unusual environments and need a more specific substrate (usually composed of oak leaf mold). So unless you're going to go find a source of some of these more difficult (and rare / expensive / both) crypts, there's really no reason to freak out about crypt melt.

Furthermore, most of the crypts commonly available are grown submerged in other people's aquariums. Therefore, there should be no reason to do a DSM to convert the submersed crypt to an emersed crypt, only to then submerge it again. My experience with crypts is that melt just happens (rarely) and with a soil substrate, they usually grow well (sometimes too well - i've never had C. lutea stay small in a soil substrate, for example). I've only had issues w/ some of the more unusual species and i would blame their demise more on bad planted aquarium practices rather than some mysterious crypt melt.


----------



## s2b

What a relief! I'm glad I won't have to do a DSM.

The leaf mold I'm considering is completely broken down into stable (or passive) humus. I read that fully composted humus consists of humic acids and humins, which are so highly insoluble, or so tightly bound to clay particles and hydroxides, that they cannot be penetrated by microbes and are greatly resistant to further decomposition. Thus stable humus adds few readily available nutrients to the soil, but plays an essential part in providing its physical structure, and encourages the formation of good soil structure. -- The incorporation of oxygen into large organic molecular assemblages generates many active, negatively charged sites that bind to positively charged ions (cations) of plant nutrients, making them more available to the plant by way of ion exchange.

It seems that many new Walstad tanks need a few months for the soil, even mineralized soil, to completely break down. Am I correct in thinking that the fully broken down soil in an established tank is actually stable humus, as described above?

VAL


----------



## Michael

Yes. Humus formed in a terrestrial oxygen-rich environment is different than humus formed in an aquatic oxygen-poor environment. But both probably are functionally similar in an aquarium.


----------



## s2b

Oh, that's great! I found a place in Houston where I can get long, slow- composted, finely ground leaf mold. I'm going to try mixing a bit with mineralized soil. Thanks so much to everyone for your help!


----------



## hsharpe3

I have used Scotts brand top soil and half of the dirt is not sinking.... is this normal? Is this possible peat moss that was put in the topsoil?


----------



## hsharpe3

I plan on using this soil that I am using Aaron Talbots recipe for to put in my 35 gallon, 3 sq ft. "growing tank", then once the plants are Mature enough I can pot them, and properly secure them to put in my future African Cichlid Tank.... Has anyone here had any problems with this in the past?


----------



## AgentM51

dmachado said:


> Hello,
> 
> I had the same problem a while ago, inverts kept dying, etc etc.
> 
> I have setup a mineralized aquarium (http://translate.google.com/transla...riofilia.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=154475) about a year ago, and only added any inverts after 6 months of maturation.
> 
> I am convinced that some ageing of the substrate is needed.
> 
> Good luck.


I just set up my tank using the potash, and I'm having the same problem with my shrimp... they've all died, and I got some new ghost shrimp that have all died as well, within 24-48 hours. If I wait to add shrimp until 3-6 months, I guess that means no more dosing with the potash in the future? What should be used then, for the plants?


----------



## king kong

hsharpe3 said:


> I have used Scotts brand top soil and half of the dirt is not sinking.... is this normal? Is this possible peat moss that was put in the topsoil?


great I will try it!


----------



## Aquaticz

Hi Aaron,
Well I have been mineralizing 3 large bags of the suggested MGOC. It is my understanding that once mineralized I can add a product like Oil Dri which has a high CEC in lieu of the other products listed. I have had an all oil dri tank in the past and have an extra bag on hand. I am not sure of the amount, percentage wise, that I would mix in before capping, would it be 10% or less? Also I have never used a capping material & thought I would check out white pool filter sand. Is the cap approximately 1.5 inches thick? I will try this on a 55 gallon tank & if I like it I expect to try on other tanks (65, 40, 29) . Thanks for spearheading this thread


----------



## AaronT

Does the oil dry crumble easily? You might add it as a powder to substitute for the clay. 

The dolomite isn't super necessary, but the KCL will help a good bit to get things going with no dosing at all for 3 months or so. 

I've never used the Miracle Grow soil. I've always just used the cheapest top soil at the big box stores. 

Why not use the oil dry as a capping material? Pool filter sand works also, but it's an algae magnet if you plan to use higher lighting. 

The cap should be at least 1.5" thick. I usually make it thicker in the back to give a feeling of depth to the tank.


----------



## Aquaticz

AaronT said:


> Does the oil dry crumble easily? You might add it as a powder to substitute for the clay.
> 
> I would be able to that via a hammer
> 
> The dolomite isn't super necessary, but the KCL will help a good bit to get things going with no dosing at all for 3 months or so.** then I will find it - Thx
> 
> I've never used the Miracle Grow soil. I've always just used the cheapest top soil at the big box stores.
> 
> Why not use the oil dry as a capping material?
> ****I had a tank with only oil dri & was looking for a different look. I also found oil dri to be difficult to plant in initially as it takes a while to compact. It also does not hold shape.
> 
> Pool filter sand works also, but it's an algae magnet if you plan to use higher lighting.
> ****Hmmmm... I did not know that. I was planing on this tank being lower maintenance than a high light tank and was going to use a Catalina single bulb T5HO for a 55 gallon. I had a 4 X 55 watt CF which was to much work.
> 
> I do not think a single bulb will be to much but frankly do not really know. Can anyone offer additional comments based on experience?
> 
> The cap should be at least 1.5" thick. I usually make it thicker in the back to give a feeling of depth to the tank.


Thanks Aaron - I appreciate your reply & will post pics once I put it together


----------



## Naturtank

I bought topsoil and mineralized it following the recipe . After completion it looks and feels like tan/gray sand . Also while wet it really compacts. Should it be like that? thanks


----------



## AaronT

Yes, it should feel sandy like. It sounds like you did it correctly.


----------



## bluesand

instead of using dolomite can i use dry fetilizers? 

in the local store where i buy muriate potash they also sell calcium nitrate, looks like little pebbles and they also sell magnesium in powder.


----------



## Tugg

You would be better off using Crushed Coral or Oyster Shells than CaNO3. One of the reasons for the dolomite is the Carbonate component helps neutralize excessive soil acidity. The nitrate will likely leech and can cause algea since it's levels will get very high.


----------



## bluesand

i cant find dolomite in my country. no one know what dolomite is. what about magnesium powder, should i add it to the crush coral? can i use corals from the beach?


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## eduacaballero

Hi Aaron thanks for the MTS, this is my 60 G tank with this metod, it have one week running and everything is perfect!


----------



## AaronT

bluesand said:


> i cant find dolomite in my country. no one know what dolomite is. what about magnesium powder, should i add it to the crush coral? can i use corals from the beach?


Just do not use it. It's not absolutely essential for success. Adding crushed coral will raise the pH.


----------



## AaronT

eduacaballero said:


> Hi Aaron thanks for the MTS, this is my 60 G tank with this metod, it have one week running and everything is perfect!


Nice. Keep us updated as the tank progresses.


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## TropTrea

Dolomite is one of the products used in reef tanks to help maintain a high alkalinity level of around 8.3. I cannot see its use in a fresh water substrate especially if your trying to keep the pH fairly neutral. 

The other thing I used to use in my planted tanks was red clay. I used to be be able to get it in powdered form and would add it in layers dry when I was setting up the tank. The red clay has a much higher content of cleated iron than standard gray clay.


----------



## eduacaballero

Aaron here its the results of MTS the Persicaria Polygonum SP its blooming!!!


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## AaronT

eduacaballero said:


> Aaron here its the results of MTS the Persicaria Polygonum SP its blooming!!!


Nice.  Thanks for sharing an update.


----------



## cstmgp

Do many people use this method for large tanks? I'm starting the plan for my 125 and would love the low maint idea of capped substrate.
Does planting cause issues with disturbing the soil layer?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## TropTrea

cstmgp said:


> Do many people use this method for large tanks? I'm starting the plan for my 125 and would love the low maint idea of capped substrate.
> Does planting cause issues with disturbing the soil layer?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Yes and no.It depends on dept of the layers and how gentle and careful you are in the planting.


----------



## cstmgp

I don't mind a thick cap, the black sand sounds good. I have used play/pool sand in tanks, but prefer the black look like eco complete.
Is there any danger in to thick a cap, like circulation to the soil?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## TropTrea

I have run large planted Aquariums in the past. Going back to when I had my store I had 4 75 Gallon tanks in one display area with rainbow and Discus fish primary and a combination of plants which were constantly outgrowing these tanks.

I used commercial substrate mixed 50/50 with for the first 2" of the soil when I set it up. I used both Tetra's substrate as well as Seachems substrate with virtually equal success. The gravel I used for mixing with these substrate as well as the 1" top layer were a combination of fine red flint and a product sold as Black diamond which was supposedly a pot ash by product. 

These tanks were on slow supply of CO2. I would add liquid balanced commercial fertilizers on a weekly bases. The positive comments from my customers was unbelievable about these tanks. Some of which were experienced planted aquarium enthusiasts themselves. Because I imported a variety of plants I had some people coming from three different states just for getting a new plant or two that others did not have.

I'm planning on converting my reef to a planted tank now. Going a little more elaborate on the CO2 and lighting than the old 75 gallon tanks but basically using the same principles. This will be a 120 gallon tank however so it is a little larger.


----------



## Michael

cstmgp said:


> Do many people use this method for large tanks? I'm starting the plan for my 125 and would love the low maint idea of capped substrate.
> Does planting cause issues with disturbing the soil layer?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The largest tank I have set up myself with soil substrate is a 90 gallon. It worked very well, essentially the same techniques as smaller tanks.

With any soil substrate, you don't want to make either the soil or the cap too deep. I usually use 1.5" as a maximum for both. If you want to create more topography, use something inert (stone, tile, bags of gravel) to build up the bottom before you put the soil layer in.


----------



## cstmgp

Thanks for the advice, I like the idea of not needing much liquid dosing. 1.5 sounds great to me, when planting do you generally just plant the roots into the cap to prevent disturbing the soil? I'm sure the roots will make their way down on their own.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Michael

I plant with forceps, and insert the plant as deeply as I can into cap and soil. Then if it is a rosette plant, I pull it up so the crown is just below the top of the cap if necessary.


----------



## Sean W.

is this soil fully mineralized?

I did the soak/dry process 3 times. should i do it another time?

this is a really close shot of the dirt, im going to try to find a really fine sieve to get the remaining little bits of twigs and wood.


----------



## AaronT

Sean W. said:


> is this soil fully mineralized?
> 
> I did the soak/dry process 3 times. should i do it another time?
> 
> this is a really close shot of the dirt, im going to try to find a really fine sieve to get the remaining little bits of twigs and wood.


It's hard to say from just a picture. You'll definitely want to sift out all of those twigs and wood like you said. Once that is done it should feel like sandy dirt and it should have no foul smell when wet for long periods of time.


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## Sean W.

This is the red pottery clay i got, will this work?


----------



## AaronT

Sean W. said:


> This is the red pottery clay i got, will this work?


Does it have a list of ingredients? Sometimes they add mold inhibitors. If it doesn't say specifically you might call the 1-800 number on the package and inquire.


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## Sean W.

it says " non toxic " on the packaging, but thats it. id imagine any chemicals would be toxic. But ill call to make sure


----------



## greenkeeper

So, virtually all "topsoil" contains peat these days, it seems. At least that's what all the major brands say in their composition lists and msds sheets. The "go with the cheapest one" method sounds fine to me, but I just wanted to confirm, since everyone suggests not using peat. 

Thanks!


----------



## Sean W.

Thanks for this wonderful article and all the help. My 110 MTS tank, capped with ecocomplete and floramax is all setup! this is 7 days in. no immediate problems so far!










Video!


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## AaronT

Thanks for the update Sean W.  I'm glad it's working well for you so far. 

greenkeeper - how's the soil in your yard?


----------



## totziens

Wow! This must be one of the hottest thread in APC although I only post a one sentence post to show my gratitude towards this thread started by Aaron. I have just realised that it is going to reach 50 pages soon (maybe this post has reached 50 pages). 

Since reading this thread years ago, I have used this method a few times. I still have a 15 gallon tank using such method today and it's still doing well except for the large amount of BBA attacking the rocks. 

The first time I setup one of such tank, I was using top soil. The second tank, I could not find any top soil, so I used clay. I tore down the first tank and re-setup using the same top soil 1-2 years later. The second tank using clay didn't do very well, so I replaced it with ADA Amazonia soil.

All the while I didn't use any dolomite and potash - I could not find them. I could find crushed corals but my water was not acidic, so I thought I didn't need any.

The outcome was not as impressive as Aaron's tank but I was happy with my experiment. Obviously I enjoyed playing with mud....without manure, of course  I'm glad that I could keep the plants alive using this method even though I killed more 10-20 or more varieties of plants along the way in my experiment (I got most of the plants free of charge anyway from friends). At least I managed to learn what plants work for me using this method - Crypt wendtii, Ludwigia repens and Elianthium tenellum work very well for me (still have them today). Corkscrew vallisneria worked very well too but I got rid of them when they tried to dominate the entire tank.

Once again, I would like to thank Aaron for this wonderful thread that inspired me to experiment with the mud. However. my wife will be cursing at you if she knows about you because...... I messed up the bathroom a few times....hahaha


----------



## Tanan

This is absolutely the single most awesome thread that kick started my planted tanks. I have had such tremendous success with MTS (Though just like Totzien I never used KCL, I did use argonite/crushed coral). 
































Both of these tank were run on pure MTS with DIY CO2.


----------



## AaronT

Thanks for sharing your tanks Tanan.


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## Antoine88

Hi,

I juste discover this soil recipe a few weeks ago and I'm now trying to do it.
So a week ago I have soaking the soil for 2 days and I'm now drying it. But, the temperature is low in my garage (it is almost winter season in fhe east of france where I live) and it's very long to dry. So every day I stir a little bit the soil to make it well aerated. The smelling is almost done and I think (but not really sure) the soil is almost fully mineralized.

Do you think I will have to do some more soaking and drying cycle or it is good like that ? 
the soil is drying for 7 days now and still moist and I think I need at least 5 days more to dry it completely.

And what do you think about adding with dolomite and muriate of potash some potash bicarbonate for buffering water ?

Thank you.

Antoine.


----------



## batkidiii

Aaron,
Thanks for the great information on this thread. I have a question regarding the clay that I have. I have a bag of Oil-Dri that I plan on using for my clay, but I am not sure the percentage of Oil-Dri to soil. This is my first attempt at the Walstad method, so I am really nervious about messing it up.
Also, for give me for my ignorance, but what is the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash for? And where do I purchase it?

Thanks again


----------



## AaronT

batkidiii said:


> Aaron,
> Thanks for the great information on this thread. I have a question regarding the clay that I have. I have a bag of Oil-Dri that I plan on using for my clay, but I am not sure the percentage of Oil-Dri to soil. This is my first attempt at the Walstad method, so I am really nervious about messing it up.
> Also, for give me for my ignorance, but what is the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash for? And where do I purchase it?
> 
> Thanks again


So, first off, The Walstad method and the mineralized topsoil method are different. Obviously, I prefer the latter. 
Walstad says to throw in dirt with lots of organics and cap it. The MTS method breaks down those organics into minerals. This process eventually happens with the Walstad method too as the plants grow and the roots oxygenate the soil. The MTS wasy is just a quicker, safer way to get there.

If you use the Oil-Dri for your clay source you'll want to crush it into a powder and mix it in with the dry mineralized soil. Adding the clay does a few things. It improves CEC (cation exchange coefficiency), which allows the roots to take up nutrients more easily. It acts as a flocculant by binding with the finer soil particles and allowing them to settle from the water column if disturbed. It provides a source of iron at the roots. Use a ratio of 5-10% clay : 90-95% soil.

The dolomite provides a source of both calcium and magnesium. The 'dolomite' sold in garden centers is the wrong stuff. That is actually dolomitic lime, which is essentially crushed limestone with some dolomite added to it. Using that will wreak havoc on your KH and pH. The stuff I sent you is pure dolomite, just calcium and magnesium. You don't need a lot. Just a little dusting will do. Refer to the pictures in the article for reference.

The muriate of potash is a commercial name for potassium chloride (KCl) that farmers use. You can just simply find any source of KCl and use that if you can't find the potash. This provides an initial potassium source and is safer to use in the substrate than potassium sulfate because the sulfates could potentially cause issues with hydrogen sulfide formation in the substrate. Again, just a dusting so you can still see through the bottom glass still is all you need. You'll find after 3-6 months you'll need to start dosing K in the water column, but that should be all you need to dose.


----------



## k zeller

AaronT - :hail:I assume that with the time of the year that we are in that it would be ill advised to try and begin this process now as the wet dirt would freeze. Any recommendations as to how this could be achieved if wanting to setup durring winter. Also. your original instructional post - the pictures dont work. Any way of fixing that for all of us late viewers?


----------



## Tugg

If you don't have a wife, you can do it indoors in the empty aquarium. A less divorce prone option would be to use the garage if you can keep it above freezing.


----------



## AaronT

Ugh, I had hosted them on APC so they wouldn't get lost. I guess in the few ownership exchanges since then the albums got deleted. I'll work on getting them hosted somewhere else and fix them soon. 

To answer the question regarding time of year, yes, you definitely are better off doing it in the summer if you are doing it outside. A member of our local club actually laid down plastic in his spare bathtub and did it inside because he had a condo at the time. He is still happily married. Your results may vary.


----------



## k zeller

AaronT said:


> Ugh, I had hosted them on APC so they wouldn't get lost. I guess in the few ownership exchanges since then the albums got deleted. I'll work on getting them hosted somewhere else and fix them soon.


Awesome. That would be greatly appreciated.



AaronT said:


> To answer the question regarding time of year, yes, you definitely are better off doing it in the summer if you are doing it outside. A member of our local club actually laid down plastic in his spare bathtub and did it inside because he had a condo at the time. He is still happily married. Your results may vary.


Results may vary? Is this because it wouldnt be drying in the sun, or for some other reason?


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## Tugg

AaronT said:


> Ugh, I had hosted them on APC so they wouldn't get lost. I guess in the few ownership exchanges since then the albums got deleted. I'll work on getting them hosted somewhere else and fix them soon.


This looks to be a problem with the script that calls up the image.
/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/displayimage.php

It's not able to display ANY images. I've reported it to the site's support/admins.


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## AaronT

> Results may vary? Is this because it wouldnt be drying in the sun, or for some other reason?


Results of spousal approval of using one's bathtub for such purposes may vary.  Scientifically speaking, it will work.


----------



## AaronT

The photos and links to photos in the original article have now been restored.


----------



## k zeller

AaronT said:


> Results of spousal approval of using one's bathtub for such purposes may vary.  Scientifically speaking, it will work.


In my case the scientific part is all that I am concerned with . thanks Aaron


----------



## k zeller

Aaron, your original post you were using 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand. I have found that this is no longer available? What are you using now a days?


----------



## AaronT

k zeller said:


> Aaron, your original post you were using 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand. I have found that this is no longer available? What are you using now a days?


Yes, that is true. It's such a bummer. It was and still is my favorite all time substrate choice.

I'm actually using Brightwell's cafe colored substrate right now. Our club did a group order and I wanted to try it out.

If I were to choose a cap for MTS now I would use Flourite Black. Not the sand, but the regular black one.


----------



## k zeller

AaronT said:


> Yes, that is true. It's such a bummer. It was and still is my favorite all time substrate choice.
> 
> I'm actually using Brightwell's cafe colored substrate right now. Our club did a group order and I wanted to try it out.
> 
> If I were to choose a cap for MTS now I would use Flourite Black. Not the sand, but the regular black one.


So it is safe to assume that this is what you would use for your skirt before putting the slurry mixture in as well correct?


----------



## AaronT

k zeller said:


> So it is safe to assume that this is what you would use for your skirt before putting the slurry mixture in as well correct?


Yes, and that step is really only for aesthetic reasons.


----------



## k zeller

AaronT said:


> Yes, and that step is really only for aesthetic reasons.


Why cant the black flourite sand be used if this is "more aesthetically pleasing" to the hobbyist desiring to use the MTS method (i.e. me for the moment)? Or can it and you recommend not for a reason that has yet to be explained....


----------



## k zeller

AaronT said:


> I'm actually using Brightwell's cafe colored substrate right now. Our club did a group order and I wanted to try it out.
> 
> If I were to choose a cap for MTS now I would use Flourite Black. Not the sand, but the regular black one.


Are you using strictly Brightwell or did I misunderstand and you are still doing MTS and capping with Brightwell? Sorry for all the short lame questions. Just trying to make sure I know what I am doing before I shoot myself in the foot and loose a bunch of new plants.


----------



## k zeller

AaronT I have another thread in the substrate forum. Would you be willing to give me a little insite as to how this may perform/not perform with your method. I would really appreciate it.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/104794-dirted-poll.html


----------



## AaronT

k zeller said:


> Are you using strictly Brightwell or did I misunderstand and you are still doing MTS and capping with Brightwell? Sorry for all the short lame questions. Just trying to make sure I know what I am doing before I shoot myself in the foot and loose a bunch of new plants.


It's pure Brightwell. Honestly, I'm wishing I had used MTS as the Crypts just don't do as well as I"m used to.


----------



## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx

I love MTS as a substrate, combined with good lighting with decent PAR, and co2 nothing beats a beautiful planted tank with mineralized topsoil!!!

I'm currently debating on whether to go with MTS or Flourite when I set my 45 gallon long (48"x12"x19") back up. But as for right now I'm with MTS for my 30 gallon (36"x12"x19") rebuild, which was tore down because the stand started leaning back, which means it needs reinforced and that'll happen starting tomorrow and through the weekend.


----------



## alcimedes

First, I'd like to say thank you for creating such a wonderfully informative thread. I had a question that I didn't see answered when I was reading through the 500+ posts, but thought I'd ask since it's winter time.

I know the soil is supposed to be left out to dry, but if it's indoors, would putting a heat lamp and/or fan combo on the mud help the process, or will it mineralize faster if it just naturally air dries?

Thanks again, and I'll have to post photos of my tank when it's ready!


----------



## AaronT

A heat lamp would work to dry it. It would likely dry quickly indoors anyhow though. The winter air is so dry.


----------



## yalejohn

I am setting up my first dirted tank. And have a few questions, I have the mexican pottery clay needed. Although I could not find the Miracle gro organic "potting" soil. All I could find was the Miracle gro organic "top" soil. 

Q1. After reading about some folks finding the top soil they purchased was not going to work I though I would ask if anyone has experience with this Miracle gro organic "top" soil?

Q2. Any thoughts on Azomite rock dust put down before the MTS?

Q3. In place of the Dolomite and Muriate of potash, would potassium carbonate and calcium carbonate work? I have both as a PH up for my aquaponics.

Q4. We have pretty hard water here, is there a large difference in GH/KH in the WC vs MTS/substrate? In other words would it be prudent to add the both K2CO3 and CaCO3?

Q5a. I make my own vermicompost "worm castings" they work wonders for the garden and potted plants. I have considered adding some to the PRE-minerlized topsoil, any thoughts on this? I feel as though it would leach out most of the nutrients. 

Q5b. Adding fresh vermicompost (VC) to the POST-MTS. I have used both the fresh VC and aerated worm compost tea in the aquaponics with no adverse effect on the fish, the plants went bonkers, although it is a 200g tank.


This may have been the wrong place to post this but there some VERY knowledgeable people in this thread. Please point me to the correct place if needed.


----------



## GadgetGirl

A good thread is here http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=84918

Don't use any dolomite or other calcium sources if you have hard water as its not needed.


----------



## AaronT

yalejohn said:


> I am setting up my first dirted tank. And have a few questions, I have the mexican pottery clay needed. Although I could not find the Miracle gro organic "potting" soil. All I could find was the Miracle gro organic "top" soil.
> 
> Q1. After reading about some folks finding the top soil they purchased was not going to work I though I would ask if anyone has experience with this Miracle gro organic "top" soil?
> 
> Q2. Any thoughts on Azomite rock dust put down before the MTS?
> 
> Q3. In place of the Dolomite and Muriate of potash, would potassium carbonate and calcium carbonate work? I have both as a PH up for my aquaponics.
> 
> Q4. We have pretty hard water here, is there a large difference in GH/KH in the WC vs MTS/substrate? In other words would it be prudent to add the both K2CO3 and CaCO3?
> 
> Q5a. I make my own vermicompost "worm castings" they work wonders for the garden and potted plants. I have considered adding some to the PRE-minerlized topsoil, any thoughts on this? I feel as though it would leach out most of the nutrients.
> 
> Q5b. Adding fresh vermicompost (VC) to the POST-MTS. I have used both the fresh VC and aerated worm compost tea in the aquaponics with no adverse effect on the fish, the plants went bonkers, although it is a 200g tank.
> 
> This may have been the wrong place to post this but there some VERY knowledgeable people in this thread. Please point me to the correct place if needed.


1. - I've never used it. You're looking for dirt, not loamy type soil.
2. - I've never used it, but it can't hurt to try it.
3. - Dolomite and Potash don't raise pH. With your already hard water the only additive you need is the potash. The MTS and any other substrate does not have enough potassium. KCL is what you want. Do not use K2SO4 in teh substrate. It's fine in the water column, but could cause sulfide pockets if buried in the substrate.
4. - see answer 3
5. Yes, the vermicompost is fine to use. I would use it underneath the MTS when setting up the tank. A buddy of mine used it and it has worked well.


----------



## Michael

Aaron, you deserve some type of internet medal of honor. Here we are 7 years after you first started this thread, and you are still answering questions. This is a great resource!

As you know, I am a Walstad guy. I think mineralized topsoil is an essential enhancement to the Walstad method. My longest running tank is now 4 years old and showing some signs of potassium deficiency. Do you prefer to use KCl or K2SO4 in the water to correct this?


----------



## yalejohn

any thoughts on adding Humic Acid? I heard reference to it as a CEC. would it stain the water?


----------



## THE V

Humic acid is undecomposed organic matter in soil that has an acidic property. Chemically it is a mixture if random molecules. CEC refers to Cation-Exchange Capacity. This is the ability if the soil to lock up and later release positively charged nutrients. Humic acid has a very high level of CEC.


----------



## AaronT

Michael said:


> Aaron, you deserve some type of internet medal of honor. Here we are 7 years after you first started this thread, and you are still answering questions. This is a great resource!
> 
> As you know, I am a Walstad guy. I think mineralized topsoil is an essential enhancement to the Walstad method. My longest running tank is now 4 years old and showing some signs of potassium deficiency. Do you prefer to use KCl or K2SO4 in the water to correct this?


Answering them slower than usual albeit....

Either one is fine for the water column.


----------



## AaronT

yalejohn said:


> any thoughts on adding Humic Acid? I heard reference to it as a CEC. would it stain the water?


I wouldn't do it unless you are doing a black water biotope and want stained water.


----------



## brian c

Hi,i am using Miracle-Gro organic Choice Potting Mix and i was wondering.Do i really need dolomite or muriate of potash?What does the dolomite and muriate of potash even do?

I am starting a 20 gallon high planted tank. I am doing this technique because someone from another forum showed me a link to this thread and i think it sounds good,hard to do but it seems like it seems like it will have a good outcome.


----------



## brian c

hello?hola?bonjure?


----------



## SBS

Not necessarily. I didn't put any in one of my tanks and it's been doing as well. But I have hard water so dolomite isn't really needed, plus I do water changes weekly. As for potassium. You'll need to dose it one day or another eventually when you plants start getting little holes on lower leaves.


----------



## mik778866

Hi. Informative thread. One aspect that has not been adequately covered is water changes on initial set up. I would assume that because the soil is already mineralised, there is no need for lots of water changes in the first month as one would do in a walstad/dirted tank? If this is completely incorrect, please provide a guideline to follow. Thanks


----------



## Eutexian

mik778866 said:


> Hi. Informative thread. One aspect that has not been adequately covered is water changes on initial set up. I would assume that because the soil is already mineralised, there is no need for lots of water changes in the first month as one would do in a walstad/dirted tank? If this is completely incorrect, please provide a guideline to follow. Thanks


I doubt there is any kind of definitive guideline to follow.. water changes should be guided by water test results and perhaps by eye. by how the plants are growing. Im no expert but it seems to me the primary reason for mineralising the soil is to 'remove' or convert the less decayed organic matter from the soil which in turn lowers the risk of ammonia spikes in the early days as well as excess nutrients flooding the water column leading to algae blooms.

In my own tank I mineralised the soil quite thoroughly and tested the water daily for the first 18 days.. I saw no reason due to the results I was seeing to perform a water change - the plants after a week of doing nothing much exploded into life.. the fish, some of which were added on day 2 did fine. I had a filter in place and because of this on day 18 I saw a positive result for Nitrite - It wasnt huge, only 3ppm - but I did a water change then just to be on the safe side.. after that I continued to test the water and saw no reason to do a water change.

My routine now is to do a small water change every month, not because its 'essential' but because lowering the water level makes cleaning up easier - also I lose some water when I disconnect the external filter, empty it and give the pads a clean... I use water from the tank to do this. So, my water changes are around 10/15% once a month. and everything is ticking along nicely.


----------



## Aljaz555

Hi guys I have one question can you use normal crushed red clay brick instead of pottery clay ?


----------



## joe Rockhead

AaronT,
After reading your article(and the 53 pages of posts)I cant help but to try my hand at it. I have never had much luck with in plants in my aquariums, or at gardening in general so I believe this will be a challenge. I've collected what I believe are enough materials to begin in a week or so. I will need to start with more plants than I have now. Wish me luck...


----------



## rmsalaysay

*Can I?*

can i apply this process on NPT? Walstad?

do i still need the Dolomite & Muraite of Potash or just the MTS+Clay? for my NPT?


----------



## LarryA

*Top Soil Source*

Thanks for the great thread Aaron!

I went to a local landscape materials supplier with a tub and shovel and said I wanted 50 lbs of topsoil. Since the just sell it by the ton, they said take what you need! Free and easy to inspect to get the right stuff! It is in the washing phase now and will start the first drying soon. It is quite cold here in Colorado, so will do the drying cycles in the basement.


----------



## LarryA

Well, the free top soil didn't work. Loaded with colloidal clay that never cleared. I tried two batches from different sources. I washed the second batch until all I had left was sand! Guess the clay in Colorado top soil isn't suitable for fish tanks. I picked up two large bags of Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil today and put one bag in a 30 gallon stock tank to soak and float off the bark chips and reduce the tannin. I plan to wash it 3 times and lay out to dry and start mineralization process, then wash the second bag and add to the first. I intend to do the wet/dry cycles for several weeks. I have the murate of potash, dolomite, and laterlite that I was going to used with the MTS. My water is very soft (snow melt mostly) with a PH about 8 from the crap they buffer it up with so it doesn't etch copper pipes and and pollute the river. (I call it crap because they started using it back in the 1980's without telling anyone and killed all my fish when my nice PH 7 tap water suddenly became PH 8 buffered enough to raise my 90 gallon tank PH to 8 with a 10 gallon water change.)

I assume I need to use the dolomite but probably not the potash as per the MTS recipe. Would extra dolomite be good? Should I add the laterlite to 5-10% of the volume of soil? Is the cat litter or equivalent necessary if I use the laterlite?

Thanks for any advice! Larry


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## BCripe

Great article! I've been looking into this, and this post will definitely influence how I go about it. 
2 Questions: 
Would either of these work? They both say they are fertilized. There's not much to choose from in winter here, but I can wait until spring if needed. 
Scotts 1.5-cu ft Lawn Soil (Item #: 319905 at Lowe's)
Miracle-Gro 2-cu ft Flower and Vegetable Garden Soil (Item #: 156800)
Is there one that would be better than the other?

What would be the benefit of this method over a straight Walstad setup? 

Thank you!!


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## ddi

Hi AaronT
as a new planted aquariast, 
would adding the red potting clay to my already established 10 gal tank help my plants?
my substrates are basic commercial types from the pet store.
I have been dosing with API Leaf Zone, and some of my plants are getting yellow after 6 mos.


----------



## ddi

also, I have avoided using Seachem products for plants as the dosing directions are for larger systems.
if I were to use that product, how much should I dose for such a small tank?


----------



## Diana K

BCripe:
Read the ingredients in the products. The more organic materials (bark, sawdust, manure, peat and so on) the worse- You will be sifting and floating off as much as possible of these organics to get down to the actual soil- the sand, silt and clay content. Which can be close to none in some of these prepared blends. 
Here is a test question: If you went out into a field, scraped away the layer of weeds and roots and so on, how much sawdust, manure and peat would you find in the soil underneath? That material from the field is more likely to be correct compared to a prepared potting soil blend. Now, some companies are actually packaging the real sand-silt-clay portion of soil, and not adding any compost or similar. This is the sort of thing you want to start with. Look for a bag with a hole in it. If the material looks fluffy, organic, peat, sawdust or like it has sticks in it, or if it smells like ammonia or manure these are the wrong things. 

ddi: I would not simply add clay to an established, running tank. The point of adding the clay to the soil then capping it is that the clay is a beneficial thing when blended with the rest of the soil particles. Then the mineralized soil you have made is capped (covered) so the particles do not come out into the water. 
What kind of substrate is in your 10 gallon tank? If it is a soil-like material, you might be able to use it, but to add the clay means redoing the whole tank. Take everything out, blend the substrate with the clay, and rebuild, including a cap over the substrate. 
The Seachem product line is OK, if you don't mind paying for the shipping of water. Why not buy the active ingredients and add the water yourself? You can buy the dry fertilizers and dose whichever your tank needs. 
However, there are 2 ways of using the Seachem product line for small tanks. 
a) Get a very small eyedropper to measure the right dose. 
b) Put a small amount of each Seachem product in a separate container, and dilute it with distilled water. Then dose according to how you have diluted it. Do not make up too much like this at a time (perhaps a week or two worth at a time.) Example: 
Seachem Flourish Iron is dosed at 5ml/50gallons. 
If you have a 10 gallon tank you only want 1ml. There are eyedroppers and children's medicine droppers (ask at a pharmacy) and syringes (no needle) that measure in this range. 
If you want to dilute the Seachem product, here is an example: shake well, then measure 5ml fertilizer + 5ml distilled or reverse osmosis water. 
Then dose the tank with 2ml per 10 gallons. If you do the initial mixing accurately, then this will give you a more accurate dosing. 
However! The average 10 gallon tank does not hold 10 gallons even if all the substrate, decor, plants and fish are gone. If you are going to go to the effort of diluting the ferts to be more accurate, then you also need to be much more accurate as to EXACTLY how much water is REALLY in the tank. 

Not worth it! Just get any of the eye dropper/syringe things and use that on the product as it comes out of the bottle. Reduce the dosing by 10 or 20% to account for the reduced volume of water in the tank. Dose a 10 gallon tank to suit 8 gallons of water. (.8ml, in this example)


----------



## Pat 11

180 gallon, CO2, 3watts/gallon-Can I use osmocote plus 00 tablets in substrate with mineralized sub soil. If so how many tablets/square foot or linear (inches)? With Monte Carlo as ground cover, would inert substrate be ok, or would Amano soil be preferred as a cap. Thinking roots of Monte Carlo would not be able to get down with 1 1/2" average cap depth. All answers appreciated.


----------



## CricketMclean

AaronT said:


> How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate​
> 
> Over the years dedicated aquatic plant hobbyists have developed many different methods to maintain vibrant freshwater flora. After having tried almost all of the popular fertilization techniques, I have finally found one that produces consistently healthy aquatic plants. That fertilization method imparts essential nutrients by using mineralized topsoil as a substrate.
> 
> When I joined the Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association about four years ago, I attended my first official meeting at the home of Sean Murphy. Sean is a Fisheries Biologist by trade and has been employing mineralized soil in his planted aquariums for nearly two decades now. He developed a "recipe" for the soil substrate during his collegiate studies of wetlands soils. It is his recipe that I have recently begun using with great success.
> 
> Using topsoil or potting soil as a substrate is not a new idea. Aquarists have been using this method to grow healthy aquatic plants for decades. However, this method does seem to pose some problems, namely algae outbreaks resulting from light intensity that is too strong. This is especially true when you first set up your aquarium with this type of substrate. The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.
> 
> Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. Soil mineralization occurs from exposing bacteria, enzymes and other soil microbes to oxygen in a moist environment. The microbes break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available minerals. As an added bonus these new bio-available forms of nutrients are generally only available to plants and not to algae.
> 
> There are a few other components to the mineralized soil recipe. Clay provides a source of iron. The clay also serves to bind with the soil as a flocculating agent. When plants are uprooted or disturbed, the added clay will help the soil to settle back to the bottom of the tank. Adding Dolomite to the base of the substrate will provide plants with the necessary calcium and magnesium they need for healthy growth. The calcium and magnesium in the dolomite will also help to keep the soil from becoming too acidic. Lastly, add soluble potash for an initial potassium source.
> 
> It is still possible to use pressurized CO2 and high lighting with this method of fertilization. I have setup four tanks using this method and all of them have been high-tech setups using CO2 and high lighting. I rarely ever have to dose any supplements save for the occasional dose of potassium. Use caution when dosing and dose very little amounts at a time.
> 
> *I've composed a list of materials and step-by-step instructions for those readers who would like to try the mineralized soil substrate method. *
> 
> *Materials Needed*
> 
> •	Cheap topsoil
> •	Pottery clay
> •	Dolomite
> •	Muriate of potash
> •	Fine gravel or coarse sand
> •	Large container for soaking soil
> •	Screen made from scrap wood and chicken wire
> •	Nylon screening material
> •	Large plastic tarp
> 
> *Step 1 - Purchase and Rinse the Topsoil*
> 
> Open the bag of topsoil and distribute in the container of your choice for soaking purposes. I use large Rubbermaid containers that are readily available from any mega-mart. You will want to use cheap topsoil and not potting soil. Potting soil has additives to avoid such as fertilizers, vermiculite and peat moss.
> Fill the tub with water so the water level is a few inches above the top of the soil. I like to stir it around a bit to help break up any big clumps and evenly distribute the water. Let this soak for a day or two. Come back and slowly dump the water off of the top. Now add in more water so the soil is well covered. This water changing process helps to "rinse" the soil of any possible fertilizers or other harmful water soluble chemicals.
> 
> *Step 2 - Allow the Topsoil to Dry*
> 
> Pour the excess water out of the container as you did when changing the water. Lay out the large plastic tarp, preferably in direct sunlight. Dump out the muddy soil and spread it relatively thin over the tarp. Allow the soil to dry completely. This can take a day or two and depends greatly on how warm the temperature is where you are drying the soil. This part of the process could be done indoors. Though due to its messy nature, I suggest doing it outdoors if possible. When the soil is completely dry, add it back into the soaking container.
> The drying process is the part that allows the microbes in the soil to begin mineralizing the nutrients. Exposing it to air oxygenates the soil.
> 
> *Step 3 - Repeat the Rinsing and Drying Cycles*
> 
> Repeat steps 1 and 2 three to four times. Repeating the steps is necessary to further mineralize the soil and remove any lingering fertilizers. The soil mineralizes the most during the time while it is still moist and exposed to air on the large tarp. By soaking it over again we reintroduce the needed moisture for this process to take place. When the soil is near fully mineralized it will have a very grainy texture. Another way to tell that the soil is ready is by smell. There will be virtually no smell coming from the soil once it is mineralized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ Mineralized Topsoil_
> 
> *Step 4 (optional) - Sift the Soil to Remove Debris*
> 
> Screening the soil can help to remove any large organic materials that the short mineralization process employed thus far cannot remove. I have setup tanks where I skipped Step 4 and others where I used it. I have found that adding this step to the process helps to further eliminate algae issues after a tank is newly setup.
> You can use a wooden frame with chicken wire stapled to four sides. Then place nylon screening material overtop. Place a few handfuls of soil on top and gently push the soil across the surface of the screen. Make sure to put a container underneath to catch the sifted soil. Below is a picture of the sticks, leaves and stones that can be removed during this step. The resulting sifted soil will feel like airy sand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Screening Setup_
> 
> *Step 5 - Add the Clay*
> 
> Now that you have a mineralized soil to use as the substrate, you will want to add in the aforementioned clay. Estimate how much clay you will need so that the resulting mixture of soil and clay is about 5% to 10% clay. If you prefer measurements I use about ¼ of a pound of clay per square foot of tank bottom.
> To add the clay you soak it in a container of water to help emulsify it and make it easier to incorporate into the soil. A second option to add clay is to dry the clay in the open air and then crush it into a powder and add it to the soil. In either case you will want to eventually add enough water to the mixture to form a nice runny mud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ Mineralized Soil Mud with Clay Added_
> 
> *Step 6 (optional) - Create an Aesthetic Border*
> 
> Now comes the fun part of setting up the aquarium. Add the gravel of your choice just along the front and side edges of the aquarium bottom. Wet it just enough that it holds a slope and press it up against the sides. Doing this step ensures that we will not see the different layers of substrate when viewing the tank from the front and sides. In this instance I have chosen to use 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand as a substrate top layer. I prefer this coarse sand for many reasons. It is very dense and holds a slope for a long period of time. The finer granules also allow for easy planting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sand Border_
> 
> *Step 7 - Add the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash*
> 
> Sprinkle a light dusting of both the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom glass of the tank. The bottom of the glass should still be somewhat visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sprinkling of Dolomite and Potash_
> 
> *Step 8 - Add the Mineralized Mud*
> 
> Fill in the borders you've created with the runny mud mixture of mineralized soil and clay. This layer should be anywhere from ½" to 1" deep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mineralized Mud Added_
> 
> *Step 9 - Top With Gravel*
> 
> Cover the mud with more of the same border gravel from step 6. If you skipped step 6 then simply cover over the mud with the gravel of your choice. Cover the mud by about 1" in the front to 2" in the back of the tank to create a nice sloping substrate effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Gravel Top Layer Added_
> 
> *Step 10 - Slowly Fill the Aquarium and Begin Planting*
> 
> Begin planting and filling the aquarium as you would any other planted aquarium. Use caution when filling the tank with water. Go slowly to avoid disturbing the substrate and uncovering the soil.
> 
> *The End Product*
> 
> I hope this has inspired you to try something new. I know I had wanted to try mineralized soil for some time after seeing Sean's beautiful aquariums. I finally got up the courage to set up a small 20 gallon tank last year and now I'm hooked. With a little patience and trial and error, I think you'll be pleased with the results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ My ADA 90-P aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate	_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _My AGA 75 gallon aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate_


I'm living in the land of The Hardest Water You'll Never Want. Is Dolomite a step I can skip? Seriously though







living in Phoenix Arizona and when tested only 7 other cities in the U.S. bested us. Ph is 8.2 out of the tap. We replace our kitchen faucet yearly. Not kidding! 
Thanks for the article. It's been many moons since it was posted so if anyone else is keeping an eye on it I'd sure appreciate an answer. <3
@Dutchmuch 
Yesterday I was reading your name as Dulchmulch lol


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## Michael

With hard, high pH tap water you definitely don't need dolomite. Another thread that you may find helpful is "Suitable soils for the Walstad method" in El Natural forum.


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## CricketMclean

Michael said:


> With hard, high pH tap water you definitely don't need dolomite. Another thread that you may find helpful is "Suitable soils for the Walstad method" in El Natural forum.


 thank you. That's good news because I couldn't find it  and it's lovely to find our ridiculously hard water is good at least for something! I think I may have already read that post. Title sounds familiar but I'll check it out again. Thanks so much for the reply. I honestly didn't think I'd get one given the age of the post


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## DutchMuch

What Michael said


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## CricketMclean

Thank you!


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## hoppycalif

Dolomite is used as a source of magnesium in the substrate - the calcium is just icing on that cake. You don't necessarily need it, because you can get magnesium other ways, in the water. Your hard water may or may not have lots of magnesium. Your water quality report doesn't say how much of either calcium or magnesium the water has, but the combination seem to range from 10-15 dGH.


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## CricketMclean

hoppycalif said:


> Dolomite is used as a source of magnesium in the substrate - the calcium is just icing on that cake. You don't necessarily need it, because you can get magnesium other ways, in the water. Your hard water may or may not have lots of magnesium. Your water quality report doesn't say how much of either calcium or magnesium the water has, but the combination seem to range from 10-15 dGH.


Yeah it's tough to get really useful information. Especially from me lol. This is what I know about my water. 
Kh 161
Calcium was 80 to 100 (couldn't really tell for sure after the 4th drop)
Phosphates .25
These were the tests included in my hand kit. I don't have one for General hardness








I download this from the city. Is any of that helpful?

Oh I also have this. 
Mg. 25.67
Ca. 72.17
Na. 107.40
K. 4.34


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## hoppycalif

I would conclude from that information that you probably don't need to be concerrned about extra magnesium. Your tap water should have plenty.


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## CricketMclean

hoppycalif said:


> I would conclude from that information that you probably don't need to be concerrned about extra magnesium. Your tap water should have plenty.


Good news  thank you!


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## azappetti

Is it possible to make a granular mineralized soil substrate (3 to 5 mm), such as commercial, that does not dissolve in water?
regards


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## BoneyTee

I am trying to do this process for my 75 gallon planted aquarium. I am having trouble tracking down the Dolomite. It seems like most substrates are either crushed coral or aragonite now. Does anyone know if aragonite would work instead or if i have some other option to supplement the dolomite?


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## hoppycalif

Amazon has dolomite: https://www.amazon.com/Dolomite-Lim...&qid=1509547421&sr=8-4&keywords=dolomite+lime and I suspect Ebay also does.


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## BoneyTee

I saw that but I thought I read somewhere that Dolomitic Lime and Dolomite that used to be commonly used as a saltwater substrate are not the same thing and the lime is corosive. I did find aquarium substrate dolomite on ebay, but she shipping was twice the price of the gravel since it would come from over seas.


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## hoppycalif

Dolomite is a rock that contains both magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate. As rocks it can have a widely varying percentage of magnesium carbonate. When it is ground up and sold for agricultural use it is sometimes called dolomitic lime - which means it contains a significant proportion of magnesium and not just a trace of it. Lime is not a specific material, but a mix of calcium compounds, but we also use that term for calcium oxide, which is corrosive. Dolomitic lime is just about any calcium and magnesium containing rock that you want to call it. (All of this is just my opinion, based on a lot of reading over several years. You know, rocks are very rarely anything close to a pure chemical compound, and dolomite is commonly what one group of rocks is called.)


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## BoneyTee

Hmm ok, the reason I was sticking away from the agricultural dolomite was because I thought it wasn't safe in an aquatic setting. I live in a region with very hard water, so I may not need it anyhow. The aquifers here are silurian dolomite.


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## hoppycalif

With your water I wouldn't bother adding dolomite in any form. The only unique thing it adds is magnesium, and you already have enough magnesium. 

We are engaging in agriculture with our planted aquariums. We are trying to get good, healthy growth of our aquatic plants. Therefore, agricultural chemicals are very appropriate for our use.


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## BoneyTee

Sounds good. Thanks for the advice!


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## ZacInVan

I'm currently mineralizing soil for a new 50g tank, really looking forward to seeing how it works out. 

Incidentally, I added a step to the process, I'm hopeful it'll pay off. I ran the soil through an old blender (while in a slurry). 😬 After the second time drying it out, I strained it through a fairly fine colander, to remove larger pieces of wood--I was dismayed at how many small bits of wood I could still see in the soil. I figured these little bits would take some time to break down sufficiently through decomposition, so I decided to help it along mechanically. 😉 While I could have found a finer screen to sift the soil, I figured that would also be removing a lot of potential mineral content, and I happened to have the old blended kicking around gathering dust so...

Now my question, I've read/skimmed this entire thread but didn't find an answer:

Can anyone provide any input into quantity of Dolomite and Potassium Chloride I'll need for a 48" x 16" footprint? 

I'm looking at ordering them on Amazon (Canada) as supplements (for human consumption), will 16oz of Dolomite Powder & 8oz of Potassium Chloride Powder be sufficient?


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## hoppycalif

I suggest that you try to find dolomite in a fine gravel form instead of a powder. https://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Garden...UTF8&qid=1510852696&sr=1-10&keywords=dolomite The goal should be to get something that only slowly dissolves in the water. I'm not convinced that potassium chloride is of much benefit here, but if you want to use some, you can use https://www.walmart.com/ip/NoSalt-O...35&wl11=local&wl12=37233033&wl13=5192&veh=sem because it is mostly potassium chloride. Just sprinkle a little on the bottom glass of the tank under the substrate - not a layer, but a dusting of it.


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## ZacInVan

hoppycalif said:


> I suggest that you try to find dolomite in a fine gravel form instead of a powder. https://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Garden...UTF8&qid=1510852696&sr=1-10&keywords=dolomite The goal should be to get something that only slowly dissolves in the water. I'm not convinced that potassium chloride is of much benefit here, but if you want to use some, you can use https://www.walmart.com/ip/NoSalt-O...35&wl11=local&wl12=37233033&wl13=5192&veh=sem because it is mostly potassium chloride. Just sprinkle a little on the bottom glass of the tank under the substrate - not a layer, but a dusting of it.


Thanks for dolomite link, I appreciate it. I was dismayed that the powder was the only thing I could find on Amazon.ca, never occurred to me to look on Amazon.com for one that would deliver to me in Canada. &#128527;

Can you clarify what you mean you mean by "not convinced that potassium chloride is of much benefit here"? Muriate of Potash = KCl = Potassium Chloride, no..?

I understand the usage of both, but short of "sprinkling" the bottom of my tank with some other material and then vacuuming it out, I wasn't sure how to estimate how much I'll need to order of both and was hoping someone might give me a guess for my 16" x 48" footprint.


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## hoppycalif

We dose KNO3 or K2SO4 for potassium, so I don't see a benefit of using KCl in the substrate. That's what I meant. It isn't necessary to try to provide all of the nutrients the plants need with the substrate. Plants also get nutrients through their leaves. You can grow aquatic plants with a inert substrate, like ordinary pool filter sand, as long as you fertilize the water. It is nice to give the plants the option of feeding through their roots or their leaves, but not essential to do so.

Also, KCl dissolves easily in water, so when we add it to the substrate it will soon be distributed throughout the tank water and the substrate, so why bother with adding it to the substrate?


----------



## Letsfish

My son in law is going to give me a 75g tank that he no longer uses.The largest tank I have is 55g so it is a step up for me.I probably won`t get it set up until late spring.So in the meantime, I will build a stand and gather all the ingredients for the mineral base substrate.I am looking forward to doing this.The tank even comes with an Eheim canister filter. This thread is a very informative and easy to digest even for a newbie like me. Thanks!!


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## DutchMuch

I have a question, and i come from a short background of dirting tanks... i did it a completely different way, and it worked great.

my question was if i follow this method, since i have HARD water do i need to add clay? we have high mg content.


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## DutchMuch

DutchMuch said:


> I have a question, and i come from a short background of dirting tanks... i did it a completely different way, and it worked great.
> 
> my question was if i follow this method, since i have HARD water do i need to add clay? we have high mg content.


I ended up adding clay and it made my plants HELLA red, so that's nice!


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## hoppycalif

I think the clay is there mostly to hold the nutrient ions for the roots to get to them easier. I don't think the iron in clay is accessible to the roots until bacterial activity make it accessible. But, I'm far from an expert in soils. Chelated iron is immediately usable by the plants.


----------



## DutchMuch

hoppycalif said:


> I think the clay is there mostly to hold the nutrient ions for the roots to get to them easier. I don't think the iron in clay is accessible to the roots until bacterial activity make it accessible. But, I'm far from an expert in soils. Chelated iron is immediately usable by the plants.


hmm. Interesting hoppy! I simply sprinkled my clay into the tank so it slowly sunk into the substrate. Of course this tank is dirted already, but after about 2 weeks the clay began to give the ludwigia arcuata of which i sprinkled it around, an orange - red color tone to it. Of course this could be something else but i haven't changed a darn thing for months. Reason i added the clay is cause i did a little research (mostly on TPT) and people also had the same experience..

Also i must point out i'm not an expert to soils either. I merely test, and observe!

here is the thread i read, i focused on your post and the following post under you. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...rameters/960698-there-iron-rich-red-clay.html

p.s. (thought i might add) im not using pottery clay, i just got some red clay from the yard, dried it for a week in the greenhouse, and crushed it up to Very fine (under 1mm>) dust like sizes.


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## jordanphelan

Hey Aaron, I will be using your guide for my first planted aquarium. The only question i have is would i be able to use pool filter sand instead of the black sand/gravel you used as a cap? I like the white look of the pool filter sand. i understand if it end up mixing with the soil it wont look so nice but was wondering what your thoughts would be? 
Thanks,
Jordan Phelan


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## hoppycalif

With a soil bottom layer, when you use pool filter sand as the top layer, you don't get mixing of the two materials. You do have to be careful when poking plants into the substrate, and if you make a mistake and pull the plant back up, you can get some soil on top of the sand, but it migrates back to below the sand over time.


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## Elitebook1

First thank you very much for creating such a nice thread.. it took me on and off 3 days to go through most of the information.. user experiences and wonderful analysis..

Thank you Very much Aaron.

If my reply make any one angry kindly please accept my apology and dont want to dig a old thread intentionally. I saw a petco sale and wanted to try a 20gallon tank and to do a proper way.. went through many videos..and all decided to go Low tech.. first. Most of the videos says using Topsoil is old school and the plants roots digs deep into the top soil and its very hard to remove..and some just dumping any organic potting mix capping with some sand or gravel and adding water..

Saw another video using quikrete sand from home depot ..washing few times and adding to the tank. I want to do this proper and right way.. saw many replies ..many people trying different top soils.. every one posted the pics before trying and often forgot (i might have missed too.. sorry) to update their results if it worked or not.. i know its tough to expect everything and so nice of you guys spending your valuable time.

After all this years.. if any one have an ultimate formula..saying use this topsoil bought here.. use this clay..can be bought here.. use this dolomite.. it will really helpful and encourage more newcomers like me.. I live in Long Island , NY..and we have many nurseries around.. sadly most of them are whole sale..as a first step i will go around and ask about the topsoil that dont have any organic stuff or peat moss..and as much plain as it is..

can you please advise where i can buy lava rocks, dolomite (https://www.amazon.com/Dolomite-Lime-Dolomitic-Calcitic-Garden/dp/B0131MU8BO), Murate of potash and pottery clay in local stores..

Again thank you very much for such a in depth thread..and wonder why it kind of stopped in between..

Thanks.


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## pjcvijay

Do I need CO2 unlike Walstad method? Thanks!


----------



## hoppycalif

pjcvijay said:


> Do I need CO2 unlike Walstad method? Thanks!


The need for CO2 is caused by having a lot of light, not from using a soil substrate underlayer. When plants are growing slowly they don't need a lot of carbon to use to make new plant tissue. The faster they grow the more they need additional CO2 for the carbon. And, the biggest cause of fast plant growth is ample light. If you ignore this need for more carbon the plants will not be very healthy, and unhealthy plants invite algae to take over.


----------



## pjcvijay

hoppycalif said:


> pjcvijay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do I need CO2 unlike Walstad method? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> The need for CO2 is caused by having a lot of light, not from using a soil substrate underlayer. When plants are growing slowly they don't need a lot of carbon to use to make new plant tissue. The faster they grow the more they need additional CO2 for the carbon. And, the biggest cause of fast plant growth is ample light. If you ignore this need for more carbon the plants will not be very healthy, and unhealthy plants invite algae to take over.
Click to expand...

Thank you!


----------



## pjcvijay

Hello! How to dose pottasium after initial source of pottasium is used? Can I dose the Muriate of potash that 100% water soluble? I read somewhere that we need to dose liguid dosage of Potassium (KH2PO4). What is the difference? 

I'm finding hard to get red clay. Can I use gray clay which is available easily for me? Does that contain iron? Or can I use red soil (mix with little clay) that's commonly available in India? Is that one are you referring to laterite?

Thanks!


----------



## mistergreen

pjcvijay said:


> Hello! How to dose pottasium after initial source of pottasium is used? Can I dose the Muriate of potash that 100% water soluble? I read somewhere that we need to dose liguid dosage of Potassium (KH2PO4). What is the difference?
> 
> I'm finding hard to get red clay. Can I use gray clay which is available easily for me? Does that contain iron? Or can I use red soil (mix with little clay) that's commonly available in India? Is that one are you referring to laterite?
> 
> Thanks!


You can use Muriate of Potash. KH2PO4 has phosphate in it.
You can dose small of amounts of chelated iron, no need for red clay. I'm not sure if plants can access the iron oxide in red clay anyway. You can use clay laterite as well.


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## pjcvijay

Hello there,

Will all plants do well with this method? Unlike the Walstad Method which describes that the soil as substrate (without Mineralizing), and some plants would not make it, and we focus the plants that grow well?

Thanks!


----------



## Michael

Mineralized topsoil is one type of substrate for planted tanks. It can be used for Walstad tanks, high tech tanks, any kind of aquarium where you want to grow plants. You can use any other technique you want: high light, low light, CO2, water column fertilization, substrate fertilization, EI, etc.


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## GadgetGirl

It always seems to me that soil & Walstad are one and the same and then I realize that it would work with any method. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## hoppycalif

GadgetGirl said:


> It always seems to me that soil & Walstad are one and the same and then I realize that it would work with any method.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


El Natural tanks are not the same as other tanks, where soil is used. El Natural uses soil that contains a lot of living things and other organic material. The breakdown of those organic materials and the activity of the living things generates CO2 for the plants. When you use a non-El Natural method for your tank you should be wary of organic stuff, and living stuff, in the substrate. You will probably be using more light, so faster plant growth, with CO2 being added to support that faster growth. The unknown stuff in the soil can cause problems for you, instead of being an asset as in El Natural tanks. In my opinion it is best to mineralize the soil - convert any organic nitrogen to inorganic nitrogen - when you are not following the El Natural method. Of course you might have a very successful tank however you do it, but the odds aren't the same.


----------



## Weaveman

hoppycalif said:


> GadgetGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It always seems to me that soil & Walstad are one and the same and then I realize that it would work with any method.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> El Natural tanks are not the same as other tanks, where soil is used. El Natural uses soil that contains a lot of living things and other organic material. The breakdown of those organic materials and the activity of the living things generates CO2 for the plants. When you use a non-El Natural method for your tank you should be wary of organic stuff, and living stuff, in the substrate. You will probably be using more light, so faster plant growth, with CO2 being added to support that faster growth. The unknown stuff in the soil can cause problems for you, instead of being an asset as in El Natural tanks. In my opinion it is best to mineralize the soil - convert any organic nitrogen to inorganic nitrogen - when you are not following the El Natural method. Of course you might have a very successful tank however you do it, but the odds aren't the same.
Click to expand...

I found that out by trying to combine the two. I used extremely rich, sticky swamp humus I collected mixed 50/50 with safe t sorb and a sprinkling of osmocote capped with bdbs. Medium lights and moderate co2 = endless algae problems.


----------



## hoppycalif

Weaveman said:


> I found that out by trying to combine the two. I used extremely rich, sticky swamp humus I collected mixed 50/50 with safe t sorb and a sprinkling of osmocote capped with bdbs. Medium lights and moderate co2 = endless algae problems.


I try to forget my experiences with combining El Natural with my previous experience with CO2, fertilizing, etc. Those experiences have never been something I would want to remember.


----------



## pjcvijay

Thanks for writing this article, Aaron!

I tried set up a nano tank with Mineralized Soil three weeks ago. I'm pleased with the overall results. Plants are growing like crazy. I had little bit of hair algae.

I used cheap potting soil, and sprayed water over the soil and dried. I repeated this process 4 times. They turned into airy powder like. Just sprangled MOP, no calcium and magnesium added as my water is hard water.

Plants used:

Ludwigia Depend
Sagittaria sp. Dwarf
Vallisneria
Backpack Carolinians
Ludwigia Palustris
Cabomba Caroliniana
Rotala Rotundifolia
Limnophila Sessiliflora
Hygrophila Polysperma "Rosanervig'
Dwarf hair grass
Frogbit
Etc.,

I use no filter, just DIY CO2 for now.

Here is the three weeks update video:






After seeing the amazing results, I plan to use Mineralized Soil for my 30 gallon aquarium.

Thanks!


----------



## Latka

I am collecting ingredients from Aaron's recipe so that I can put a soil substrate in my 6-gallon tank. I found a bentonite clay in the facial care and cosmetics section at WalMart. The Sky Organics Indian Healing Clay comes in a 16-ounce jar of fine dry powder for $9.97. The label claims it is 100% pure bentonite clay from Wyoming, 100% natural, no additives, chemical free. It sounds like a good product for the aquarium, and it will be easy to blend into the wet mineralized soil.

Is this an appropriate source of clay for the mineralized soil substrate? I read an earlier post about bentonite being extremely fine. Will this be a problem in the soil layer? Also, what about iron content? Are there other disadvantages to using bentonite clay?

Thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion.


----------



## Notg2009

Latka said:


> I am collecting ingredients from Aaron's recipe so that I can put a soil substrate in my 6-gallon tank. I found a bentonite clay in the facial care and cosmetics section at WalMart. The Sky Organics Indian Healing Clay comes in a 16-ounce jar of fine dry powder for $9.97. The label claims it is 100% pure bentonite clay from Wyoming, 100% natural, no additives, chemical free. It sounds like a good product for the aquarium, and it will be easy to blend into the wet mineralized soil.
> 
> Is this an appropriate source of clay for the mineralized soil substrate? I read an earlier post about bentonite being extremely fine. Will this be a problem in the soil layer? Also, what about iron content? Are there other disadvantages to using bentonite clay?
> 
> Thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion.


I kept seeing those products on amazon and finally ordered clay on ebay. It said carolina clay and it is really red in appearance. Is it 100% clay? I'm not sure but better than ordering those expensive products off Amazon. I also tried home depot, lowes, local stores and couldn't find a bag of clay!!

Omid

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## hoppycalif

When I was playing with mineralized top soil I spent a lot of time looking for real clay, minus any additives. I did finally find some, but I don't remember where I found it. I think it was sold for pottery use. It was wet clay, of which I used about 10% of what I got. Soon, the remainder was a brick, which was very difficult to make into a powder! I solved this problem by using ADA Aquasoil!


----------



## mistergreen

Have you guys tore down your mineralized soil tanks? It's interesting to see the pottery clay separate out from the soil so you end up clumps of 100% clay.

I'm sure you can use Safe-t-sorb or Oil-Dri for clay matter.


----------



## hoppycalif

Very good idea! I'm not sure why it was considered important to add clay to mineralized soil, so I'm not sure if STS meets the need. As I recall, it was iron-rich clay that was recommended, but Diana Walstad has pointed out that ordinary dirt contains a significant amount of iron anyway. (I'm too lazy to read 58 pages here to find out why the clay.)


----------



## GadgetGirl

I don't remember Diana ever mentioning adding clay. At least I can't find it. But she does discuss problems with iron toxicity. Seems like that kinda just popped up somewhere about adding red clay as an iron source.
Also, I'm pretty certain montmorillonite clay (STS/OilDri) is not a source of iron. STS is used in the substrate to bind nutrients because of its high CEC. Pottery clay and montmorillonite clay are two different materials to the best of my knowledge.


----------



## mistergreen

Plants can't use the iron clay anyway. It's bonded with the silica. Plant roots can get iron ions attracted to clay & soil, CEC.

Montmorillonite clay is like 3x higher in CEC than pottery clay.


----------



## Latka

mistergreen said:


> Montmorillonite clay is like 3x higher in CEC than pottery clay.


I found bentonite clay powder in the department store facial care section. Does bentonite clay have a high CEC level?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


----------



## GadgetGirl

I use VERY small amounts of powdered calcium bentonite every few days. Like barely a pinch in a 10 gallon tank just added to water. Supposedly it absorbs toxins and provides a few minerals among other things. Koi breeders have been using it for years. (https://allnaturalpetcare.com/blog/...tmorillonite-clay-for-pond-and-aquarium-fish/). I don't think it has any CEC value. It has a totally different purpose and form than STS or OilDri and you would never use it in the volume that we do STS! STS or OilDri are very large particles that take a very, very long time to dissolve, if ever. The product you are referring to is a very finely ground powder as people consume the food grade type (which is what I have). You really can't compare the 2 products.


----------



## mistergreen

Latka said:


> I found bentonite clay powder in the department store facial care section. Does bentonite clay have a high CEC level?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


yes, betonite is a type of montmorillonite clay. They're all the same really in structure.
Make sure it's 100% clay without added cosmetic stuff.


----------



## mistergreen

GadgetGirl said:


> I don't think it has any CEC value. It has a totally different purpose and form than STS or OilDri and you would never use it in the volume that we do STS! STS or OilDri are very large particles that take a very, very long time to dissolve, if ever. The product you are referring to is a very finely ground powder as people consume the food grade type (which is what I have). You really can't compare the 2 products.


STS & Oildri goes through a process of drying, shaped, sized, and firing (like pottery but not exactly) so they don't dissolve in water. Bentonite & montmorillonite clay are the same stuff.
The powdered form has more surface area than the baked form.


----------



## Latka

According to Walmart website, this is sodium bentonite, not calcium, but otherwise pure.






























Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


----------



## Latka

GadgetGirl said:


> I use VERY small amounts of powdered calcium bentonite every few days. Like barely a pinch in a 10 gallon tank just added to water. Supposedly it absorbs toxins and provides a few minerals among other things. Koi breeders have been using it for years. (https://allnaturalpetcare.com/blog/...tmorillonite-clay-for-pond-and-aquarium-fish/).
> ...
> 
> The product you are referring to is a very finely ground powder as people consume the food grade type (which is what I have). You really can't compare the 2 products.


Thanks for the input, GadgetGirl. That web page is very informative. I can see where calcium montmorillonite may be better than the sodium type as an aquarium supplement.

MisterGreen, I think the fine grained nature of this facial cosmetics clay may make it a good choice for blending into the soil substrate for CEC value. It seems a little will go a long way. I wonder if sodium bentonite in the substrate will increase the sodium content of the water.









Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


----------



## mistergreen

Latka said:


> MisterGreen, I think the fine grained nature of this facial cosmetics clay may make it a good choice for blending into the soil substrate for CEC value. It seems a little will go a long way. I wonder if sodium bentonite in the substrate will increase the sodium content of the water.[
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


It doesn't look like it's water soluble so you should be fine. You can buy a big bag of Safe-t-sorb or Oildri for $9. Bang for your bucks.


----------



## GadgetGirl

It would probably be ok, but I'm not sure what would be gained if it's mixed in substrate.


----------



## Latka

GadgetGirl said:


> It would probably be ok, but I'm not sure what would be gained if it's mixed in substrate.


Clay mixed in the substrate promotes plant growth by increasing the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the soil, helping roots to efficiently utilize soil nutrients.



AaronT said:


> There are a few other components to the mineralized soil recipe. Clay provides a source of iron. The clay also serves to bind with the soil as a flocculating agent. When plants are uprooted or disturbed, the added clay will help the soil to settle back to the bottom of the tank.


I'm still not sure about the sodium vs. calcium question, though.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


----------



## vloeien

Does anyone here keep invertebrates? I've given this recipe a go and it appears to have created a toxic environment for my shrimp and nerite snails. Several batches have died, even after isolating one variable after another. Meanwhile, I'm keeping another dirted tank, utilizing the same tap water and many of the same plants, with zero issues.

I raised this issue on the El Natural forum, and Diana Walstad mentioned: "Many clays contain aluminum. The clay may be fine by itself, but when you mix it with an organic soil, the organic matter can solubilize the aluminum oxides and release toxic aluminum into the water. Invertebrates are particularly sensitive to heavy metals, which includes aluminum." She also was concerned about using solid potash.

I've spoken with two others who have used this mineralization method and cannot keep invertebrates in those tanks, despite being able to keep them in other tanks. It seems quite likely that something toxic is being leached from the soil substrate.

I'm very curious if anyone else has experienced an issue like this using the mineralization method suggested in this post.


----------



## MadTurtle

AaronT said:


> How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate​
> 
> Over the years dedicated aquatic plant hobbyists have developed many different methods to maintain vibrant freshwater flora. After having tried almost all of the popular fertilization techniques, I have finally found one that produces consistently healthy aquatic plants. That fertilization method imparts essential nutrients by using mineralized topsoil as a substrate.
> 
> When I joined the Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association about four years ago, I attended my first official meeting at the home of Sean Murphy. Sean is a Fisheries Biologist by trade and has been employing mineralized soil in his planted aquariums for nearly two decades now. He developed a "recipe" for the soil substrate during his collegiate studies of wetlands soils. It is his recipe that I have recently begun using with great success.
> 
> Using topsoil or potting soil as a substrate is not a new idea. Aquarists have been using this method to grow healthy aquatic plants for decades. However, this method does seem to pose some problems, namely algae outbreaks resulting from light intensity that is too strong. This is especially true when you first set up your aquarium with this type of substrate. The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.
> 
> Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. Soil mineralization occurs from exposing bacteria, enzymes and other soil microbes to oxygen in a moist environment. The microbes break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available minerals. As an added bonus these new bio-available forms of nutrients are generally only available to plants and not to algae.
> 
> There are a few other components to the mineralized soil recipe. Clay provides a source of iron. The clay also serves to bind with the soil as a flocculating agent. When plants are uprooted or disturbed, the added clay will help the soil to settle back to the bottom of the tank. Adding Dolomite to the base of the substrate will provide plants with the necessary calcium and magnesium they need for healthy growth. The calcium and magnesium in the dolomite will also help to keep the soil from becoming too acidic. Lastly, add soluble potash for an initial potassium source.
> 
> It is still possible to use pressurized CO2 and high lighting with this method of fertilization. I have setup four tanks using this method and all of them have been high-tech setups using CO2 and high lighting. I rarely ever have to dose any supplements save for the occasional dose of potassium. Use caution when dosing and dose very little amounts at a time.
> 
> *I've composed a list of materials and step-by-step instructions for those readers who would like to try the mineralized soil substrate method. *
> 
> *Materials Needed*
> 
> • Cheap topsoil
> • Pottery clay
> • Dolomite
> • Muriate of potash
> • Fine gravel or coarse sand
> • Large container for soaking soil
> • Screen made from scrap wood and chicken wire
> • Nylon screening material
> • Large plastic tarp
> 
> *Step 1 - Purchase and Rinse the Topsoil*
> 
> Open the bag of topsoil and distribute in the container of your choice for soaking purposes. I use large Rubbermaid containers that are readily available from any mega-mart. You will want to use cheap topsoil and not potting soil. Potting soil has additives to avoid such as fertilizers, vermiculite and peat moss.
> Fill the tub with water so the water level is a few inches above the top of the soil. I like to stir it around a bit to help break up any big clumps and evenly distribute the water. Let this soak for a day or two. Come back and slowly dump the water off of the top. Now add in more water so the soil is well covered. This water changing process helps to "rinse" the soil of any possible fertilizers or other harmful water soluble chemicals.
> 
> *Step 2 - Allow the Topsoil to Dry*
> 
> Pour the excess water out of the container as you did when changing the water. Lay out the large plastic tarp, preferably in direct sunlight. Dump out the muddy soil and spread it relatively thin over the tarp. Allow the soil to dry completely. This can take a day or two and depends greatly on how warm the temperature is where you are drying the soil. This part of the process could be done indoors. Though due to its messy nature, I suggest doing it outdoors if possible. When the soil is completely dry, add it back into the soaking container.
> The drying process is the part that allows the microbes in the soil to begin mineralizing the nutrients. Exposing it to air oxygenates the soil.
> 
> *Step 3 - Repeat the Rinsing and Drying Cycles*
> 
> Repeat steps 1 and 2 three to four times. Repeating the steps is necessary to further mineralize the soil and remove any lingering fertilizers. The soil mineralizes the most during the time while it is still moist and exposed to air on the large tarp. By soaking it over again we reintroduce the needed moisture for this process to take place. When the soil is near fully mineralized it will have a very grainy texture. Another way to tell that the soil is ready is by smell. There will be virtually no smell coming from the soil once it is mineralized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ Mineralized Topsoil_
> 
> *Step 4 (optional) - Sift the Soil to Remove Debris*
> 
> Screening the soil can help to remove any large organic materials that the short mineralization process employed thus far cannot remove. I have setup tanks where I skipped Step 4 and others where I used it. I have found that adding this step to the process helps to further eliminate algae issues after a tank is newly setup.
> You can use a wooden frame with chicken wire stapled to four sides. Then place nylon screening material overtop. Place a few handfuls of soil on top and gently push the soil across the surface of the screen. Make sure to put a container underneath to catch the sifted soil. Below is a picture of the sticks, leaves and stones that can be removed during this step. The resulting sifted soil will feel like airy sand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Screening Setup_
> 
> *Step 5 - Add the Clay*
> 
> Now that you have a mineralized soil to use as the substrate, you will want to add in the aforementioned clay. Estimate how much clay you will need so that the resulting mixture of soil and clay is about 5% to 10% clay. If you prefer measurements I use about ¼ of a pound of clay per square foot of tank bottom.
> To add the clay you soak it in a container of water to help emulsify it and make it easier to incorporate into the soil. A second option to add clay is to dry the clay in the open air and then crush it into a powder and add it to the soil. In either case you will want to eventually add enough water to the mixture to form a nice runny mud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ Mineralized Soil Mud with Clay Added_
> 
> *Step 6 (optional) - Create an Aesthetic Border*
> 
> Now comes the fun part of setting up the aquarium. Add the gravel of your choice just along the front and side edges of the aquarium bottom. Wet it just enough that it holds a slope and press it up against the sides. Doing this step ensures that we will not see the different layers of substrate when viewing the tank from the front and sides. In this instance I have chosen to use 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand as a substrate top layer. I prefer this coarse sand for many reasons. It is very dense and holds a slope for a long period of time. The finer granules also allow for easy planting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sand Border_
> 
> *Step 7 - Add the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash*
> 
> Sprinkle a light dusting of both the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom glass of the tank. The bottom of the glass should still be somewhat visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sprinkling of Dolomite and Potash_
> 
> *Step 8 - Add the Mineralized Mud*
> 
> Fill in the borders you've created with the runny mud mixture of mineralized soil and clay. This layer should be anywhere from ½" to 1" deep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mineralized Mud Added_
> 
> *Step 9 - Top With Gravel*
> 
> Cover the mud with more of the same border gravel from step 6. If you skipped step 6 then simply cover over the mud with the gravel of your choice. Cover the mud by about 1" in the front to 2" in the back of the tank to create a nice sloping substrate effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Gravel Top Layer Added_
> 
> *Step 10 - Slowly Fill the Aquarium and Begin Planting*
> 
> Begin planting and filling the aquarium as you would any other planted aquarium. Use caution when filling the tank with water. Go slowly to avoid disturbing the substrate and uncovering the soil.
> 
> *The End Product*
> 
> I hope this has inspired you to try something new. I know I had wanted to try mineralized soil for some time after seeing Sean's beautiful aquariums. I finally got up the courage to set up a small 20 gallon tank last year and now I'm hooked. With a little patience and trial and error, I think you'll be pleased with the results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ My ADA 90-P aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _My AGA 75 gallon aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate_





AaronT said:


> How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate​
> 
> Over the years dedicated aquatic plant hobbyists have developed many different methods to maintain vibrant freshwater flora. After having tried almost all of the popular fertilization techniques, I have finally found one that produces consistently healthy aquatic plants. That fertilization method imparts essential nutrients by using mineralized topsoil as a substrate.
> 
> When I joined the Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association about four years ago, I attended my first official meeting at the home of Sean Murphy. Sean is a Fisheries Biologist by trade and has been employing mineralized soil in his planted aquariums for nearly two decades now. He developed a "recipe" for the soil substrate during his collegiate studies of wetlands soils. It is his recipe that I have recently begun using with great success.
> 
> Using topsoil or potting soil as a substrate is not a new idea. Aquarists have been using this method to grow healthy aquatic plants for decades. However, this method does seem to pose some problems, namely algae outbreaks resulting from light intensity that is too strong. This is especially true when you first set up your aquarium with this type of substrate. The algae likely results from the excess nutrients that decomposing organic materials release in the soil. The decomposing organic materials are not bio-available to the aquatic plants. As the tank matures, the algae dissipate slowly as the organics in the soil finish breaking down.
> 
> Mineralizing the soil beforehand helps to speed the breakdown of organic materials in the soil. In turn the mineralized soil will help shorten the initial algae outbreak period that many aquarists experience when using a soil substrate. Soil mineralization occurs from exposing bacteria, enzymes and other soil microbes to oxygen in a moist environment. The microbes break down the organic materials in the soil into bio-available minerals. As an added bonus these new bio-available forms of nutrients are generally only available to plants and not to algae.
> 
> There are a few other components to the mineralized soil recipe. Clay provides a source of iron. The clay also serves to bind with the soil as a flocculating agent. When plants are uprooted or disturbed, the added clay will help the soil to settle back to the bottom of the tank. Adding Dolomite to the base of the substrate will provide plants with the necessary calcium and magnesium they need for healthy growth. The calcium and magnesium in the dolomite will also help to keep the soil from becoming too acidic. Lastly, add soluble potash for an initial potassium source.
> 
> It is still possible to use pressurized CO2 and high lighting with this method of fertilization. I have setup four tanks using this method and all of them have been high-tech setups using CO2 and high lighting. I rarely ever have to dose any supplements save for the occasional dose of potassium. Use caution when dosing and dose very little amounts at a time.
> 
> *I've composed a list of materials and step-by-step instructions for those readers who would like to try the mineralized soil substrate method. *
> 
> *Materials Needed*
> 
> • Cheap topsoil
> • Pottery clay
> • Dolomite
> • Muriate of potash
> • Fine gravel or coarse sand
> • Large container for soaking soil
> • Screen made from scrap wood and chicken wire
> • Nylon screening material
> • Large plastic tarp
> 
> *Step 1 - Purchase and Rinse the Topsoil*
> 
> Open the bag of topsoil and distribute in the container of your choice for soaking purposes. I use large Rubbermaid containers that are readily available from any mega-mart. You will want to use cheap topsoil and not potting soil. Potting soil has additives to avoid such as fertilizers, vermiculite and peat moss.
> Fill the tub with water so the water level is a few inches above the top of the soil. I like to stir it around a bit to help break up any big clumps and evenly distribute the water. Let this soak for a day or two. Come back and slowly dump the water off of the top. Now add in more water so the soil is well covered. This water changing process helps to "rinse" the soil of any possible fertilizers or other harmful water soluble chemicals.
> 
> *Step 2 - Allow the Topsoil to Dry*
> 
> Pour the excess water out of the container as you did when changing the water. Lay out the large plastic tarp, preferably in direct sunlight. Dump out the muddy soil and spread it relatively thin over the tarp. Allow the soil to dry completely. This can take a day or two and depends greatly on how warm the temperature is where you are drying the soil. This part of the process could be done indoors. Though due to its messy nature, I suggest doing it outdoors if possible. When the soil is completely dry, add it back into the soaking container.
> The drying process is the part that allows the microbes in the soil to begin mineralizing the nutrients. Exposing it to air oxygenates the soil.
> 
> *Step 3 - Repeat the Rinsing and Drying Cycles*
> 
> Repeat steps 1 and 2 three to four times. Repeating the steps is necessary to further mineralize the soil and remove any lingering fertilizers. The soil mineralizes the most during the time while it is still moist and exposed to air on the large tarp. By soaking it over again we reintroduce the needed moisture for this process to take place. When the soil is near fully mineralized it will have a very grainy texture. Another way to tell that the soil is ready is by smell. There will be virtually no smell coming from the soil once it is mineralized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ Mineralized Topsoil_
> 
> *Step 4 (optional) - Sift the Soil to Remove Debris*
> 
> Screening the soil can help to remove any large organic materials that the short mineralization process employed thus far cannot remove. I have setup tanks where I skipped Step 4 and others where I used it. I have found that adding this step to the process helps to further eliminate algae issues after a tank is newly setup.
> You can use a wooden frame with chicken wire stapled to four sides. Then place nylon screening material overtop. Place a few handfuls of soil on top and gently push the soil across the surface of the screen. Make sure to put a container underneath to catch the sifted soil. Below is a picture of the sticks, leaves and stones that can be removed during this step. The resulting sifted soil will feel like airy sand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Screening Setup_
> 
> *Step 5 - Add the Clay*
> 
> Now that you have a mineralized soil to use as the substrate, you will want to add in the aforementioned clay. Estimate how much clay you will need so that the resulting mixture of soil and clay is about 5% to 10% clay. If you prefer measurements I use about ¼ of a pound of clay per square foot of tank bottom.
> To add the clay you soak it in a container of water to help emulsify it and make it easier to incorporate into the soil. A second option to add clay is to dry the clay in the open air and then crush it into a powder and add it to the soil. In either case you will want to eventually add enough water to the mixture to form a nice runny mud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ Mineralized Soil Mud with Clay Added_
> 
> *Step 6 (optional) - Create an Aesthetic Border*
> 
> Now comes the fun part of setting up the aquarium. Add the gravel of your choice just along the front and side edges of the aquarium bottom. Wet it just enough that it holds a slope and press it up against the sides. Doing this step ensures that we will not see the different layers of substrate when viewing the tank from the front and sides. In this instance I have chosen to use 3M Colorquartz T-Grade Black Sand as a substrate top layer. I prefer this coarse sand for many reasons. It is very dense and holds a slope for a long period of time. The finer granules also allow for easy planting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sand Border_
> 
> *Step 7 - Add the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash*
> 
> Sprinkle a light dusting of both the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom glass of the tank. The bottom of the glass should still be somewhat visible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sprinkling of Dolomite and Potash_
> 
> *Step 8 - Add the Mineralized Mud*
> 
> Fill in the borders you've created with the runny mud mixture of mineralized soil and clay. This layer should be anywhere from ½" to 1" deep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mineralized Mud Added_
> 
> *Step 9 - Top With Gravel*
> 
> Cover the mud with more of the same border gravel from step 6. If you skipped step 6 then simply cover over the mud with the gravel of your choice. Cover the mud by about 1" in the front to 2" in the back of the tank to create a nice sloping substrate effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Gravel Top Layer Added_
> 
> *Step 10 - Slowly Fill the Aquarium and Begin Planting*
> 
> Begin planting and filling the aquarium as you would any other planted aquarium. Use caution when filling the tank with water. Go slowly to avoid disturbing the substrate and uncovering the soil.
> 
> *The End Product*
> 
> I hope this has inspired you to try something new. I know I had wanted to try mineralized soil for some time after seeing Sean's beautiful aquariums. I finally got up the courage to set up a small 20 gallon tank last year and now I'm hooked. With a little patience and trial and error, I think you'll be pleased with the results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ My ADA 90-P aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _My AGA 75 gallon aquarium with a mineralized soil substrate_


 I am definitely going to try this, as I am going to try my first dirted tank with a 29G. I have seen some people also add Black Kow or worm casings . I think they said that is for nitrogen? Is anything like that needed or would it be a bad idea to add that. I am using the Father Fish method and capping 1 inch of dirt with 3-4 inches of BDBS


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## mistergreen

MadTurtle said:


> I am definitely going to try this, as I am going to try my first dirted tank with a 29G. I have seen some people also add Black Kow or worm casings . I think they said that is for nitrogen? Is anything like that needed or would it be a bad idea to add that. I am using the Father Fish method and capping 1 inch of dirt with 3-4 inches of BDBS


No need for the extra nutrients in poop. It will cause anaerobic problems actually.


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## obcabathory

vloeien said:


> Does anyone here keep invertebrates? I've given this recipe a go and it appears to have created a toxic environment for my shrimp and nerite snails. Several batches have died, even after isolating one variable after another. Meanwhile, I'm keeping another dirted tank, utilizing the same tap water and many of the same plants, with zero issues.
> 
> I raised this issue on the El Natural forum, and Diana Walstad mentioned: "Many clays contain aluminum. The clay may be fine by itself, but when you mix it with an organic soil, the organic matter can solubilize the aluminum oxides and release toxic aluminum into the water. Invertebrates are particularly sensitive to heavy metals, which includes aluminum." She also was concerned about using solid potash.
> 
> I've spoken with two others who have used this mineralization method and cannot keep invertebrates in those tanks, despite being able to keep them in other tanks. It seems quite likely that something toxic is being leached from the soil substrate.
> 
> I'm very curious if anyone else has experienced an issue like this using the mineralization method suggested in this post.


*Thank you so much for this valuable post.* It's very reasonable that there are still people who show how many of these "miracle recipes" work out in reality.
I love shrimp and have a lot of them, I can't imagine what a tragedy it would be to see beautifully colored populations die just because some people only list the positive aspects of their experiments!


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## justwood79

can i use potassium chloride powder instead of potash? i googled "potash" its referred as KCL/potassium chloride but its look different from the image , i have potassium chloride its white crystalized powder like a salt and easily dissolved in water while i the image of potash its red granulated not sure its dissolved easily or not , is it still the same thing or it contain different nutrients?

is adding clay or laterite necessary? its hard to find pottery clay here , i can buy granulated laterite but not really cheap..the other option is red soil not sure if it will give same nutrients like laterite or clay


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## mistergreen

justwood79 said:


> can i use potassium chloride powder instead of potash? i googled "potash" its referred as KCL/potassium chloride but its look different from the image , i have potassium chloride its white crystalized powder like a salt and easily dissolved in water while i the image of potash its red granulated not sure its dissolved easily or not , is it still the same thing or it contain different nutrients?
> 
> is adding clay or laterite necessary? its hard to find pottery clay here , i can buy granulated laterite but not really cheap..the other option is red soil not sure if it will give same nutrients like laterite or clay


KCl will work. Potash is unrefined, will have waste particles in it. Clay isn't necessary.


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## justwood79

mistergreen said:


> KCl will work. Potash is unrefined, will have waste particles in it. Clay isn't necessary.


as always thanks for insight mistergreen 👍 , is it necessary to sprinkle the kcl on the bottom or it can mixed with the soil? is there any cons if mixed with the soil?
I just made mineralize top soil yesterday and put it in the aquarium as a first experiment but i didn't putting any kcl and clay but i put some dolomite on the bottom , can i mixed the kcl into the soil or is it better to remove the soil and sprinkle the kcl on the bottom?


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## mistergreen

KCl will dissolve pretty fast. I think being on the bottom will help it stay in the soil more.


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## Melissande

AaronT said:


> Yes, the higher iron content is the reason I chose the red clay that I used.


Having read this, and having some familirity with clay as an artist, I feel it's probably good to stipulate RED clay in this recipe, then, as I believe the rusty red colour does in fact come from the Fe content, and there are other sorts and colours of clay out there, somake a point of going with the classic orange-brown stuff.


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