# Stunted, burned tips - problem solved but...



## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

Some time ago followed by advice "your problem is low NO3" i added NO3 (CaNO3) to reach 20 ppm NO3 (i had 10 ppm NO3 before the change - measured in a lab). Three days later plants with affected tips (burned, stunted, twisted etc) looked even worse. I thought i had lost them... So i did the opposite - i stopped to dose NO3 at all. When NO3 dropped below 5 ppm new, healthy leaves began to grow, without any deformations ! (K+ was not altered it was 10 ppm all the time). The plants that had been completely stunted for 10 months now began to look like in ADA album... However some plants did rather poorly in low NO3 - Blyxa Japonica grew quite slowly and some of its leaves rot and fell off. So i started to dose N from NH4NO3 salt (i know what you think... but i didn't have any algae) 0.5 ppm NH4 daily - i had been dosing NH4NO3 for 3 days. (dosing 0.5 ppm NH4 from NH4NO3 we also dose 1.7 ppm NO3). Unfortunately 3 days later some tips were stunted again... (both NO3 and NH4 were consumed very quickly throughout the day - the test showed 2..5 ppm NO3 and 0 NH4) I realized that too much nitrogen in soft water (my GH is 5..6) also causes Ca deficiency (there is a link between Ca & N metabolism) so it is possible to have high NO3 but in hard water only...


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## jude_uc (Feb 7, 2006)

Interesting... have you seen what result if you have if you use only NH4 with no NO3? 

-Adam


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Kekon, interesting results you have there...



> I realized that too much nitrogen in soft water (my GH is 5..6) also causes Ca deficiency (there is a link between Ca & N metabolism) so it is possible to have high NO3 but in hard water only...


I never thought of gh 5-6 as being soft water. What is your kh? I have hard water from a limestone aquifer and have always felt that I needed to have higher levels than what others have reported in order to get healthier plants. I have never done any experiments to verify this. I periodically run into issues with A. reinickii stunting - seems to come and go at the tank's whim.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

jude_uc said:


> Interesting... have you seen what result if you have if you use only NH4 with no NO3?
> 
> -Adam


Not yet, but i'm just going to do that. I will use NH4(OH) liquid but i don't know what doses shoud be added. I think it will be 0.1 ppm NH4 daily and i will increase the dose later.



> What is your kh?


It's about 3. Some of my KH comes form baking soda, some from CaCO3. I know this seems to be very strange that lower NO3 helps to get rid of stunted tips but it really happens in my case. In the past i never dosed any NO3 and plants grew very well.
Here is the link where i found something about it (their English is not very good but one can understand the text easily)

" Ä£È¯°æ Ä®½·ºñ·á Àü¹®±â¾÷ - (ÁÖ)ÄÚÇÁ "


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## LindaC (Nov 7, 2005)

This is very interesting, I have been having issues lately with stunted growth on some of my plants, more specifically my Rotala Roundafilia, after growing so nicely for weeks, the tops of the leaves are starting to come in very small, it looks terrible. I'm also seeing stunting on my Rotala colarata and also my Mayaca fluviatilisa. My NO3 is around 20-30 ppms, I have a heavy fish load and have been dosing 3/8th tsp of KNO3 every other day. I'm wondering if I cut down on this dose if my plants will start growing as they should be once again. However, I do not want to chance bottoming out on KNO2 either, I could not stand seeing any BGA in my tank again. This is very frustrating!

Oh my KH and GH are low, I buffer my KH with baking soda in this tank and bring it up to 80 and my GH is 40. Would it help if I started adding calcium to my tank?


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

Do you really have GH = 40 ??? Or maybe it is in "ppm": 40 ppm ?


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

> This is very interesting, I have been having issues lately with stunted growth on some of my plants, more specifically my Rotala Roundafilia, after growing so nicely for weeks, the tops of the leaves are starting to come in very small, it looks terrible.


Hi Linda, do the rotundifolia tips look as those in the picture below? If so, it's CO2-deficiency and not related to other nutrients. You can see old growth looks normal and then the tips started grow smaller and smaller. Only thing changed was high-CO2 to no CO2:


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

Oh, and kekon - I can confirm high NO3 in low KH water seems to cause Ca-deficiency. Thanks for sharing, I have followed your progress closely as I have had the same problems.

I tend to overdose KNO3 quite heavily.


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

A few days ago i experimented also with NH4 (i had 0 ppm NO3 at the time) dosed from NH4(OH) - very strong base (25% NH4(OH) solution has pH of 11,6), with extremely strong odour (if you try to do something with this liquid at home - you will have to air your room for at least 30 minutes; also, the very strong smell can burn your eyes and nose). 
On the first day i added 0,2 ppm NH4. The next day i added 0,1 ppm. On the third day i noticed some new stunted tips. However, i didn't notice more algae. Some plants grew about 2 cm per day but they stopped to grow completely on the fourth day (when NH4 was no longer dosed). Finally i came to the conclusion that any form of nitrogen can stunt our plants. If we have low Ca and high K at the same time things go even worse. 
I analyzed natural waters parameters (lakes, rivers) where we can meet plants we grew in our tanks. The typical total nitrogen concentration is quite low; it's usually about 0,5 ppm nitrogen per liter. I estimated the maximum NO3 level in my tank which doesn't cause stunting is no more than 5 ppm.


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## LindaC (Nov 7, 2005)

defdac said:


> Hi Linda, do the rotundifolia tips look as those in the picture below? If so, it's CO2-deficiency and not related to other nutrients. You can see old growth looks normal and then the tips started grow smaller and smaller. Only thing changed was high-CO2 to no CO2:


Yes, my rotala looked a lot like the photo above, just a lot smaller, the plant wasn't even growing at all. I ended up removing it from my tank. Funny, all the other plants seem to be doing okay, except for my rotala nanj, (can't quite remember the name, it's a fairly new plant for me), oh and my Alternanthera reineckii doesn't seem to be growing at all, the leaves aren't stunting, it's just doesn't seem to be growing at all. I added some narrow leaf ludwigia beside it at the same time and the ludwigia is twice the size as the alternanthera. Do you think this is low CO2?

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread Kekon!


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## kekon (Aug 1, 2005)

> Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread Kekon!


That's alright. I don't mind it


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## Glouglou (Feb 21, 2006)

*Agree with Kekon!*



> it's usually about 0,5 ppm nitrogen per liter. I estimated the maximum NO3 level in my tank which doesn't cause stunting is no more than 5 ppm.


Yes, we can say that aquarium are not lake, river but what they are?

Human want always to modify his environmrent, we can see the great success today.
ainkille


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## defdac (May 10, 2004)

LindaC said:


> Yes, my rotala looked a lot like the photo above, just a lot smaller, the plant wasn't even growing at all. I ended up removing it from my tank. Funny, all the other plants seem to be doing okay, except for my rotala nanj, (can't quite remember the name, it's a fairly new plant for me), oh and my Alternanthera reineckii doesn't seem to be growing at all, the leaves aren't stunting, it's just doesn't seem to be growing at all. I added some narrow leaf ludwigia beside it at the same time and the ludwigia is twice the size as the alternanthera. Do you think this is low CO2?


Yep it was for me atleast. Some plants, Rotalas for example, seems to do very poorly without CO2. I have quite low KH also (~2.5 degrees), so there are probably not that much bicarbonate either - but I've never seen that adding bicarbonates helps i my non-CO2-tanks either so.. CO2..


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