# Plants dying



## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Heres an update of my relatively new tank setup. Found some driftwood in the forest near me in a stream which I have sterilized and put inside. Only problem is my plants seem to be slowly dying instead of growing.

Java moss which all sites say is easy to grow is going brown! I cannot afford nitrate nitrite, heavy metal test kits as they are all around $40 AUS which is ridiculous.
Any general pointers towards something that I can do to help assuming that the water isn't toxic waste.
I have ottos living happily in there so it cant be too bad. I just dont get why the java moss is fading in color and slowly dying.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Jesse2504 said:


> Heres an update of my relatively new tank setup. Found some driftwood in the forest near me in a stream which I have sterilized and put inside. Only problem is my plants seem to be slowly dying instead of growing.
> 
> I have ottos living happily in there so it cant be too bad. I just dont get why the java moss is fading in color and slowly dying.


I would immediately remove the driftwood and do a major water change. Unless you know that your raw tapwater is safe for fish and plants, add an aquarium water conditioner along with the new water.

The driftwood may be leaching wood oils or tannins into the water that are killing the plants. [You can try adding the driftwood back once the plants are safely growing.]

Driftwood has caused many problems in tanks. Until proven innocent, consider it _The Prime Suspect_.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

I found the driftwood in a river which would mean that it had a chance to leech out tannins I thought, plus I let it soak in very hot water for a few days.

I can see the smaller foreground plants have yellow/brown holes in some leaves and have angled their leaves very curvy which might imply too much light and not enough CO2 as well as potassium deficiency.

The taller thing leaved plants have had brown algae on them before the wood was present, but the ottos dont seem to even go near them as the fine leaves are a bit tedious to clean.


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## queijoman (Jun 23, 2008)

Just a thought - maybe the wood is rotting in such a way that it is depleting some particular mineral from the water table... The way a sawdust mulch will deplete the nitrogen from your garden.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Jesse...it'd be helpful if you would post some info re your tank's water, like pH, hardness, temp, kind of lighting, and are you putting any ferts in the water at all?


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## Juergen (Sep 5, 2008)

looks like you have strong powered air stone in front of the java moss. If you have plant trouble, the air bubble stone doesn't help.
It may not be the reason of your problems, but bubbling away CO2 is detrimental for plants.
regards


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Juergen said:


> looks like you have strong powered air stone in front of the java moss. If you have plant trouble, the air bubble stone doesn't help.
> It may not be the reason of your problems, but bubbling away CO2 is detrimental for plants.
> regards


Juergen,

Thank you for jumping onto this. Nice to know that I'm not alone in trying to wean hobbyists off of unnecessary gadgets.

Photo shows that this tank has an internal filter to circulate water. That's probably all that's needed.

I've seen way too many NPTs lately with airstones. Counterproductive! Only if fish are gasping at the surface, is there any reason for an airstone. If plants are given a chance to grow, they (not airstones) will provide oxygen for the tank. Airstones remove CO2 such that plants can't grow well enough to provide oxygen.

Folks, don't sabotage your plants. Give them a chance to do their thing.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Firstly about the airstone. It was kind of an experiment to see the effects it would have on the algae on the java moss. Since I have read that java moss isnt too needy in terms of nutrients but algae blooms under certain conditions, if I bubbled Oxygen through the algae covered java moss it would compete with CO2 of rubisco in the algae and not have as much effect on the java moss. I have removed the airstone and java moss regardless.

Part of the reason I like aquariums is the challenge of maintaining a real life box ecosystem, I do not like fake ornaments even though they prove much less trouble. 

I can tell you that the water in there is slightly alkaline, since I only have a color test to go off, not numbers, ide say around 7.5-8. 

One thing is for sure, whatever it is causing the trouble it will usually end up in the water (hypotonic solution) so regular water changes will be something for me to do over the next few days.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm gonna say that the first thing you ought to do to get this "box" amenable to plant-growing is to inject 
CO2. Use some method to do that...pressurized is optimable but if that's too costly there Down Under, do the DIY CO2. After that, assuming that you have some modicum of sufficient lighting, consider some kind of fert dosing regime.


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## cell (Mar 9, 2009)

How much lighting does the tank get? I heard some plants needs at least 12h, otherwise they go into winter mode.

But please post at least PH and GH of the tank.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

The tank gets around 14 hours a day, but im pretty sure my bulb has gone through its half life so time for a new one.

Keep in mind that my country is not very into aquariums let alone planted ones, so many of the items which are bread and butter for you may be a rare expensive treat down here.

I will try to get a hold of more test kits, but I am skeptical of some of them. One is a flat sheet with every test color scale which you place in your tank and it changes dynamically. Im not sure how accurate it is or whats the catch but its supposed to be reusable.

For ferts I will have to look around a bit as there simply arent any where I live apart from premixed box stuff, so If you know any that are alright to use let me know.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Hey guys, just made a DIY CO2 reactor by yeast method. Used wax to seal pipe at the bottle and CO2 is being fed into a spare powerhead I had.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Calcimoo said:


> Continue this in someplace besides the el natural forum. This forum is for a *balance* in a natural tank, not for experiments.
> 
> You don't have enought real life, you just want wood and glass.
> 
> ...


Experimental or not if its makes you cry that I am trying something to observe consequences then take it somewhere else. All knowledge comes from experimentation, and is of no harm to you.

I KNOW that if I have fish I can do this and if I have more plants I can do that, if I have test kit I would post stats, If i had fertz I would say so and use them, but im asking questions regarding currently NOT having those things.

Can you please take your immature pointless responses away if they make you feel so horrible because they dont help me.

I thought of all places an aquarium forum would have nice people, and it does, but I can never get rid of that one ******* who thinks the topic is their forte and attacks anything that disrupts that ideology.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Jesse,

Sorry to see "flaming" in this forum. Please try to ignore it. It is inappropriate.

I have just asked the forum's Moderator to delete the last two letters (posted today at 4:42 AM and 6:02 AM) and hopefully this one as well.


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## Juergen (Sep 5, 2008)

jesse,
online communication is difficult. People are easily hurt, even when no offense is intended.
You want others to help you with your problem.
So take your bad feelings aside and concentrate on the topic:

-an airstone may help, if the wood begins fouling and uses up oxygen. We have no hint of this now. Pull the wood out and use your nose. If in doubt, don't put the wood back into the tank!

-as a compromise you could put a way smaller piece of wood back into the tank. Cut off a third and use that.

-same goes for the airstone...a fish tank is no yacuzzi!
If you can't regulate the bubbling by the pump or a vent, you can bent the air hose and fix the bend with some wire.
Not a very stable or reliable solution, but better than nothing! 

-one can't expect every plant to grow well and algae free, even in a npt...you do have soil under the gravel, do you?
Stuff more plants into the tank and wait which plants make it and which not...buy inexpensive ones!

-beginner with no money and testkits...
testkits are fine, if you know what you want to measure and how to interpret the results...otherwise....
What definitely is helpful, is a pH 5-10 drop test kit. Those are widely available and inexpensive.
If you use municipal tap water, call your supplier and ask for the water hardness (usually they call it soft, medium or hard water). You can also ask for the numbers of general hardness and carbonate hardness. Maybe they will send you a more detailed analysis for free or they have it online!
regards


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## Juergen (Sep 5, 2008)

the horse must learn to drink by itself , no doubt of that.
But one should at least show it his first water.
regards


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

No need for anyone to get on another's case. We all need to play nice here. Thanks for those trying to help Jesse. We all have different opinions. 

Sometimes words come off much harder in print. Please try to be considerate of others.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

dwalstad said:


> Jesse,
> 
> Sorry to see "flaming" in this forum. Please try to ignore it. It is inappropriate.
> 
> I have just asked the forum's Moderator to delete the last two letters (posted today at 4:42 AM and 6:02 AM) and hopefully this one as well.


Sorry for the delayed reaction guys/gals. I took care of it.

-Dave


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, sorry to defend my case like that It's just who I am.

In terms of aquariums I would be an advanced newbie in that I havent had the experience with most things, but its a learning curve for me and I tackle them well, I just need to do it as the experience says more than I can read.

What exactly does driftwood do in bad cases apart from tea colored water (which hasnt happened), what do the oils and rot do in terms of water chemistry? Feel free to use big nasty chemistry terminology, its kind of the basis of my university work.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

There can't be an assumption that the wood is a generator of anything toxic. It may be innocent of all charges. If it were exposed to some toxins while it was becoming "driftwood" it may then be leaching them back into your tank's water. But, my own guess is that it isn't the cause of any of the bumps in the road that you've hit and you'll have a fine planted tank once you address the more traditional shortcomings like ferts, light CO2 balance, etc.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Avi said:


> There can't be an assumption that the wood is a generator of anything toxic. It may be innocent of all charges. If it were exposed to some toxins while it was becoming "driftwood" it may then be leaching them back into your tank's water. But, my own guess is that it isn't the cause of any of the bumps in the road that you've hit and you'll have a fine planted tank once you address the more traditional shortcomings like ferts, light CO2 balance, etc.


Its all a learning process 

I am going to get a lot more plants today and see how it affects the water quality, perhaps with an 80% water change.

There is a lot of growth occurring in the plants, its just that some of the growth is a little stunted and some of the older leaves are turning slightly yellow, I think some fertz will help as these issues seem to be evident of malnutrition, which could be caused by the driftwood or other organic blooms that are stealing the plants nutrients.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

I have picked up some new plants super cheap from a pet shop who seemed to have massive amounts, handfuls for $1 and added them to my aquarium...


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Jesse2504 said:


> Its all a learning process
> 
> I am going to get a lot more plants today and see how it affects the water quality, perhaps with an 80% water change.
> 
> There is a lot of growth occurring in the plants, its just that some of the growth is a little stunted and some of the older leaves are turning slightly yellow, I think some fertz will help as these issues seem to be evident of malnutrition, which could be caused by the driftwood or other organic blooms that are stealing the plants nutrients.


I think you're going in the right direction. I'd say, though, that even if you assume that the driftwood is doing something negative, it wouldn't likely have the result that you speculate it may. Otherwise the wisest thing to do would be to remove the wood which is almost certainly uneccessary for you to do. It seems that a "heavily planted" growth...which is the popular wisdom because it works..is indeed what you should be shooting for together with the proper addition of ferts so that adequate photosynthesis can proceed and the plants can out maneuver the any algae. That is the key. Work on the ferts now because just adding more plants will not correct your situation by itself.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Avi said:


> I think you're going in the right direction. I'd say, though, that even if you assume that the driftwood is doing something negative, it wouldn't likely have the result that you speculate it may. Otherwise the wisest thing to do would be to remove the wood which is almost certainly uneccessary for you to do. It seems that a "heavily planted" growth...which is the popular wisdom because it works..is indeed what you should be shooting for together with the proper addition of ferts so that adequate photosynthesis can proceed and the plants can out maneuver the any algae. That is the key. Work on the ferts now because just adding more plants will not correct your situation by itself.


I asked at my local shop and had a good talk with the guy who runs the place, he can get in a japanese fertilizer which are top market, something starting with A.

Just an off the side question, is nitrogen (not nitrate, nitrite) harmful to fish or plants?


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## Juergen (Sep 5, 2008)

Jesse2504 said:


> Just an off the side question, is nitrogen (not nitrate, nitrite) harmful to fish or plants?


ehmm, would be a new aspect in fighting against evil airstones.


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## Avi (Apr 7, 2004)

Jesse2504 said:


> Just an off the side question, is nitrogen (not nitrate, nitrite) harmful to fish or plants?


Nitrogen is an essential nutrient for the aquatic plants in your tank. There are different ways of getting it into your planted tank and I'm sure that the stuff your local fish store guy has to sell you contains nitrogen in some form. You might want to look here for some info regarding what may happen if you don't have the essential elements in your tank's water...

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

and also take a read, here.....

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/phisio.html


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks AVI, I did have a look at that previously somewhere and it informed me of a few possible deficiencies. If this plant fertilizer from the hydroponics shop works, its cheap and has all the trace elements I need, only thing is I can't find info on whether the nitrogen it contains is in a harmful form to fish.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Jesse,

I searched through all your letters and didn't see information about your substrate. Is it just gravel without a soil underlayer? If so, you will need CO2 injection _and plenty_ of fertilizers. That could explain why your plants are dying. Sorry, I wish I had caught this sooner. 

NPTs (Natural Planted Tanks) require a soil underlayer.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Jesse,
> 
> I searched through all your letters and didn't see information about your substrate. Is it just gravel without a soil underlayer? If so, you will need CO2 injection _and plenty_ of fertilizers. That could explain why your plants are dying. Sorry, I wish I had caught this sooner.
> 
> NPTs (Natural Planted Tanks) require a soil underlayer.


It is a 'soil' but I'm thinking it might have a high sand content. It was a deep red/brown color when I added it and it was making the water terribly cloudy, See the thread "Substrate problem" in el natural. I got fed up and disturbed the soil and filtered all the cloud creating micro sediments until it was reasonably clear, recapped that and let it go.

NPT said soil under layer, which I did but my soil type was different to any I have seen on these forums as most soils around my town contain fertilizers and many organics. When I bought the soil I squeezed it in my hand and it broke in about 2-3 places in clumps which indicated clay content. They told me it came from a river that runs through these parts, I thought it might have high mineral content.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for jogging my memory. How could I forget the earlier "soil soup"! Well, I must say that your tank has come a long, long way from the earlier thread "Substrate Problems".

I think that your soil may be just fine. You have gotten the tank fairly well planted. Nice job!

I would give your plants a chance before going to fertilizers. Since you don't have fish in there providing nutrients, you could add lots of fishfood and a few snails/shrimp to crank up this ecosystem and add some plant nutrients.

Back to plants dying... If these new plants start dying, your water may be ultra-soft (GH less than 4 or CaCO2 less than 70 ppm). Calcium could be the nutrient that these plants need, as unlike other nutrients, calcium deficiency results in plant death (my book, p. 114). Do you have any idea whether your tapwater is hard or soft? Your water department might be able to tell you.


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Thanks for jogging my memory.  How could I forget the earlier "soil soup"! Well, I must say that your tank has come a long, long way from the earlier thread "Substrate Problems".
> 
> I think that your soil may be just fine. You have gotten the tank fairly well planted. Nice job!
> 
> ...


Yes its all part of the learning process. I was under the impression that the soil would release nutrients fairly quickly so if plants are dying withing a week of me setting up the tank then something must have gone astray, whether it be the wood soaking nutrients, or the other possibility being over saturation of nutrients.

My next step is to add fish since the two that are in there seem very happy, I think without having a test kit, this indicates that its safe to put fish in. My tap water here is around PH 8 so relatively alkaline, I havent had the chance to check the GH of it before.

I thought about adding fish food and was hesitant because it would feed the algae if the problem was something else. The water is more acidic in my tank now since the CO2 bubbling carbonic acid etc... around 6.5 PH.

I have taken the old bits of the 'cabomba' ....found its proper name, and replanted the new sprout parts which have grown around a centimeter in a day!

My amazon sword is popping up two new leaves from the center although they are very pale and the veins are brownish color, im not sure if this is abnormal or not.

The main concern is with the java moss which is slowly turning a brown/yellow color and im not sure whats causing this, is there a way to tell whether plants are sick from malnutrition or toxic levels of nutrients?


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## Carbon101 (Jun 14, 2009)

Hi there. I'm quite new to planted tanks but I did have the same problem with my moss. I even tied it to a piece of cork to get it closer to the light and it did not help. Although the moss has gone brown it's not actually dead. After doing some research I found that Java Moss really prefers low light so I tucked it under a piece of driftwood in a shady spot in the corner and it took off. You must also thin it out as much as possible. Less is best until it is well established. Try spreading it sparsely on your driftwood and anchor it there with a hairnet.
I also dose NPK and Traces and you can get those ferts very cheap here in AU from 
www.aquagreen.com.au and if that avenue is not for you then you can get them from a rural or farm supplies outlet.

Don't take it as gospel but it worked for me and when it comes to plants of any nature I posses the black thumb of death.

More info on it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_moss


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## Jesse2504 (Jun 3, 2009)

Update:

I've bought 10 neon tetras, 3 bristle nose catfish and started adding trace elements to the water column. 

Ive also trimmed off the old parts of the cabomba and planted the sprouts which have taken off shown in the pictures.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

Jesse, Thanks for posting your tank experiences. 
Your setup is totally different on all counts from mine save the java moss. Mine also is browning in a natural tank. Whether close to the surface or low (weighted down) it's having issues. The soil I used had a good bit of organics intact so it's gassing a good bit of CO2. Its only been setup about 1 1/2 months. CO2 started showing up after about a week, peaked at 21 days calculated to 26ppm then has stabilized at around 10-13ppm.

Do you know how much light your providing (quality)? Stepping away from traditional aquarium fixtures I'm using GE bulbs of the 5000, 65000K range. My situation doesn't allow any direct sunlight where the tank is placed so the plants are solely defendant on the bulbs.

I feel like if we get the light right the fish and weeds should take care of the each other. (given we put them together)
Best of luck going forward.


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## StevenLeeds (Jul 21, 2007)

One thing I didn't see mentioned about the moss browning is water temperature. I've noticed java moss doesn't do as well in warmer water. I have grown it in really warm water but it doesn't do as well or dies off especially if it came from a tank with a lower water temp.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I am glad to see your Cabomba growing (I never could get Cabomba to survive in my tanks.) And nice looking school of Tetras.

I would suggest that you let the Cabomba grow further to the surface before cutting off their tops. Remember that your plants are struggling right now to get established. I would leave them alone as much possible.

I see that you've planted Hornwort. It is not a rooted plant, so it will not help keep your substrate healthy. If you can buy and plant more of those nice, grass-like plants, that would be great.

Does this tank need two submerged pumps? Unless fish were gasping at the surface, I would disconnect one of them. You may be degassing out a lot of your CO2.

Finally, thanks for sending pictures so that we all can learn. Your tank has come a long way from the 
"soil soup". I'm surprised you stuck with it.


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