# Help with tank problem--discus



## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

55 gallon tank, had nearly complete water change a week ago, use RO/DI water for topping up, had 2 medium angelfish in there until Wednesday evening. 

I had 4 small discus given to me about a month or so ago. One died about a week ago when we had a nitrite spike that we forgot to plan for. In our planted tank experience (using soil subsrtate under a layer of gravel), we experience a nitrite spike around 3 weeks (give or take). We usually are watching for it and take appropriate action for about a week or so and do water changes frequently. Then things settle down. We understood why this one died. Total water change about a week ago was probably close to 100% done in 2 or three changes (never a real total 100% change but approaches that the more you change). 

Yesterday I discovered another of the 4 dead. Tested for nitrites first since we never have an ammonia problem with the amount of plants we use in our tanks. Zero nitrites. Then I tested for nitrates--also zero. Ammonia was next--also zero. 

We had, up until a couple of days ago, 2 medium sized angelfish in the tank coexisting with these discus and there didn't seem to be any problem. I noticed that the smaller of the three didn't come out to eat when I fed the angels in the tan but the biggest one (half dollar size at best) did eat. Fearing that the angelfish might be scaring the smaller ones, I took them out on Wednesday. But last night was when I discovered the second dead one. It could have been there more than a day but I'm not sure. We have enough plants that it could have been hiding very easily. 

I haven't tested for TDS yet but when I've added water it was RO/DI water with almost zero TDS.

Are small discus more prone to be affected by problems than bigger ones?

Any ideas as to what might have happened since the tests come back fine?

The test kit is pretty new, and it did detect the spike a week ago. The three surviving discus at that time seemed to be OK, but it is possible, I suppose, that the spike set the next smallest up to die a week later.


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## mousley (Feb 9, 2007)

Hello,
Juvenile Discus are far more sensitive than adults and require a bit more pampering generally. I would suggest pictures just to be helpful because it could be a number of things. The water parameters from your changes I would assume are carefully matched to the normal tank parameters, juvies need consistency in temp., PH, Gh, etc. Could have been a PH swing?
Discus and Angelfish are usually not kept together because thay are prone to infect one another with disease..are the discus dark, hiding, clamped fins, white stringy poo, etc. You might try some metronodizole.
Another isuue is they need to eat a lot more than adults or they will waste away. If they haven't readily been taking food for a while it could be that they just reached a point of no return.
All that said juvies are just plain harder to care for than let's say large or even 3.5-4 inch Discus.


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## Troy McClure (Aug 3, 2005)

I'm sorry for your losses. Most fish I don't really care about, but discus have a special place in my heart. With that said - been there, done that! Juvies are very hard to raise but I've been fortunate to still have six gorgeous, healthy discus out of my orginal 10 from last year. Of the four I've lost, one died from jumping (yes, a discus jumped ship) and the other three died because they just stopped eating. The ones that didn't eat would get chased away and eventually would start hiding in the fake plants, wouldn't come out for anything, got very lethargic, etc. The got extremely thin to the point where you'd start seeing bones (I think.) It was sad because I couldn't do anything for them. Most everybody is at the 4" mark now and they are much more manageable. I still have a runt, the one that seems to grow very slowly, but he's a little punk. He gets right in there with the big boys and girls and runs away with the block of frozen food in his mouth. Gotta love an underdog! Like mousley said though, they need to be fed a lot. Not just an extra feeding a day, I'm talking beefheart and frozen bloodworms four and five times a day! This is why people raise juvies, as I have, in a barebottom tank. It's hard to clean the crap and wasted food from a soil or fine gravel/sand substrate. Water changes must be frequest and consistent.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Maybe I should skip the juveniles and just but those 4 larger discus that Jack has. Not that I'll get rid of the one I have, but if larger ones are less apt to have problems, maybe I just need to skip the small ones.

I don't remember if I tested for pH or not now. I did put some cardinal tetras in with them and got the angels out of there. There doesn't appear to be any infection like you mentioned (no hexamita, white srtingy poop, etc.). Just lethargic and hiding. We really do need to feed them more often, but at the end they were not coming out to feed when we did feed them. I do have some frozen bloodworms I can give the last one and Melissa has fed them some finely chopped beef or deer heart. 

If I decide to get Jack's discus before he sells them, how would it be best to transport them from Cincy to Chillicothe. The move could be rough on them. 

Not feeding them the day before would help cut down on ammonia and waste products. I don't have a portable heater setup but might be able to set up a very small heater and attach it to a DC to AC 50W inverter for the ride home, if that's important. I have a 6 gallon "fermenter" I use for beermaking that I can disinfect and use.


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## Troy McClure (Aug 3, 2005)

If I was transporting discus over that distance, I would get a styrofoam cooler to place the bag in and I would add some AmQuel Plus to the water. You shouldn't need the heater unless you have no heat in your car/truck/van/suv/scooter.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

I just happen to have Amquel Plus, so I wouldn't need to buy anything.

Do I understand that larger (2 to 3 inch or bigger) discus are less fragile?


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## mousley (Feb 9, 2007)

Larger Discus can handle a little more because they are more established. I would just make sure you approximate the water params. closely before you bring them home. The travel should be okay, you could keep them in a cooler with a heat pack or something if your concerned.
Where are you getting these Discus? Is Cincinnati Discus still in operation..I've not been able to get their website for a while?


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

These would be from a club member. I don't think I'd buy discus from a store.


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## mousley (Feb 9, 2007)

Oh, yeah! I just recently read something about some testemonials to using Seachem Prime for shipping. It's very concentrated and cuts down on Ammonia, etc. when shipping fish. You might take some and put it in bags. 
Yeah, I agree most Discus I've seen in LFs's are usually not the best, living in crowded tanks, often stunted. A good thing to do if your wanting those big tank busting discus is look for a fish that has a relatively small eye to body ratio. If you follow the eye from top of head (above eye) to bottom of head(below eye) you should be able to fit about 5 eyes into this space, it's a sign of good genetics. Lot's of food and water changes and the things will grow before your eyes.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Amquel Plus is about the same thing as Prime. It's interesting how it works. 

It detoxifies ammonia and it's related compounds. It also can be used to dechlorinate tap water. Some municipalities use chloramine (a chlorine-ammonia compound) instead of chlorine. When you break the bond, you release ammonia (so a chlorine only treatment might not be good enough). Enough ammonia and you have a problem. The Prime and Amquel Plus detoxify the ammonia. It doesn't get rid of it, though, and it will still show up in your typical test kits. 

That's not a bad thing, though. It buys you time if you have a problem and don't want to do a very large water change, which might upset the pH balance or be too much of a change all at once. But if you test often it will still "remind" you to change your water since the ammonia and byproducts will still be showing up in the tests. They are just not toxic to the fish. 

I'm hoping that this last discus hangs on to show that the water conditions are OK for larger discus. 

I could go to all RO/DI water if need be.


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## mousley (Feb 9, 2007)

I've thought about R/O before but apparently you can produce a little water w/ a bunch more water waste. Where I live in Jamestown/Xenia area we have softened water which is probably softened w/ a salt type softener. I would be interested if others have this same system..it leaves the water w/ a high PH 7.5-7.6 and a KH of about 15d. On my smaller tank I use Acid Buffer to lower and adjust the PH but on the 65 I'm setting up this will be impractical, plus I want to go more low tech and concentrate more on keeping Discus w/ this tank.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

Yes, there is some waste water generated when making RO water. Most people don't invest in the optional equipment to reduce wastewater by making the process more efficient.

The most expensive approach has zero wastewater by putting all of the wastewater into your hot water tank. Very expensive.

There are two different types of pumps you can get. One simply adds about 40 psi to your incoming water pressure. It makes the process more efficient. You can also warm the water a bit but too much and you ruin the RO membrane. It's the next most expensive approach. Not sure exactly how much it adds to the cost, but it is more expeningve than the approach I took, which is the next one . . .

The other type of pump is what I bought. It's called a permeate pump. Cost (if you do careful shopping) is in the $60 to $70 range. It USES the wastewater to increase the pressure to the RO membrane, increasing the efficiency enough that you reduce wastewater somewhere by around 70% to 80%. If you collect your RO water in a large container, the RO water is a tad cleaner than without the pump. For short cycling, drawing a quart at a time, it's a tad less clean, but we're talking an insignificant amount for aquarium purposes, especially if you use a deionizer post-filter. And another benefit of the permeate pump is that your pressure tank (if you use one for drinking water) is close to your incoming line pressure instead of around 60% of that. I took the pressure "switch" out of the RO system and use the permeate pump as my switch. You can optionally change out the switch for a 90% shutoff pressure switch if you use a permeate pump. But a supplier told me that the permeate pump does the same job so you can just remove the original switch (valve, actually) altogether.

We have a (tap water) low KH of like 3 or 4, a GH of around 20, and a pH of around 7.5 to 8 or more. The city aims at 9 (I believe it keeps pipe corrosion down). I doubt that any municipality softens the water enough to drop it below 7.



mousley said:


> I've thought about R/O before but apparently you can produce a little water w/ a bunch more water waste. Where I live in Jamestown/Xenia area we have softened water which is probably softened w/ a salt type softener. I would be interested if others have this same system..it leaves the water w/ a high PH 7.5-7.6 and a KH of about 15d. On my smaller tank I use Acid Buffer to lower and adjust the PH but on the 65 I'm setting up this will be impractical, plus I want to go more low tech and concentrate more on keeping Discus w/ this tank.


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## mousley (Feb 9, 2007)

Do you keep your Discus in those higher PH's. I have heard of several other people who do this successfully. I would like to just use tap water and a python to just pump in and out, my plans are a show tank and not to breed. I would be keeping them in the upper 7's, quite alkaline for Discus. 
I can say that my smaller bowfront which has two juveniles ( a red turk and a blue snakeskin ) is an acidic aquarium around a PH of 6.8. I think that as I brought the Ph down in that bowfront the color of my Discus improved. I would like to find a way to do this with my 65 but mixing water and acid buffer is going to be a bit of a work duty around here and will probably get old fast.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm not one to ask since I'm having problems keeping these juveniles alive. I do know of others who have not had problems up to about 8.0 or so. 

I use the RO water to top up the tanks to keep dissolved solids from building up. I also use it for a small part of my water changes. 

You can bring down pH in a tank with water filtered through peat moss. I would read up on this if that's what you want to do. I think some also make a large "tea bag" of peat and put it in the tank. How long and how much I don't know. I haven't tried that. Maybe I should think about it.


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## Troy McClure (Aug 3, 2005)

mousley said:


> Do you keep your Discus in those higher PH's. I have heard of several other people who do this successfully. I would like to just use tap water and a python to just pump in and out, my plans are a show tank and not to breed. I would be keeping them in the upper 7's, quite alkaline for Discus.
> I can say that my smaller bowfront which has two juveniles ( a red turk and a blue snakeskin ) is an acidic aquarium around a PH of 6.8. I think that as I brought the Ph down in that bowfront the color of my Discus improved. I would like to find a way to do this with my 65 but mixing water and acid buffer is going to be a bit of a work duty around here and will probably get old fast.


I've learned that discus can be happy in a higher TDS/pH environment if they were bred and raised in those conditions. If you've got wild discus, I wouldn't do anything but RO water. I don't treat my tap water with anything but AquaSafe and my <1yr old discus are growing well. They were bred and raised on the north side of Cincinnati using mostly tap water for WCs.

There is no need to add buffers to the water. You can use peat in your filter to soften the water. Buffers are inconsistent and your discus wouldn't be happy with that. If you can put away a few bucks each week, an really good RO system can be had off eBay for around $115 shipped.


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## t2000kw (Jul 29, 2006)

That's about what I paid for the unit itself, with no add-ons or accessories. I bought the permeate pump to increase efficiency and reduce wastewater by about 80%, something I'd recommend if you're on a municipal water system and paying a sewage bill based on water consumption. You can direct the wastewater into a large container and re-use it for gardening, etc., though and have "zero wastewater" in that sense if you want to bother. 

My RO unit came with a DI filter. It knocks down the TDS another 90%, from about 18-20 down to 0-2 ppm. You don't really need it, though, and can save about $15 or $20 by getting the same unit without it. 

If you install one, may I recommend getting some "John Guest" type fittings for anywhere you will be splicing lines? You can optionally replace all of the fittings on the unit with that type, but I opted to wait until it was filter change time to do that. These fittings are just push in and pull and it's connected. You can release the tubing if you carefully press on the fitting where the tubing enters and gently pulling the tubing back out. 

I ran a line from the RO filter to the refrigerator for water and the ice maker. I had to buy some extra line but it was only like $2 or less for 25 feet. I also installed the RO unit on some 2x4s hanging from the floor joists against the basement wall instead of under the kitchen sink (you really don't want to work in that cramped area under the sink when it comes time to change filters, do you?) and ran some extra lines through the floor. I have a separate DI output under the sink and a drinking water faucet on the rear corner of the sink. 

Another reason to mount it in the basement, if you buy the permeate pump, is to isolate the noise of the pump from the living area. It makes a tap-tap-tap sound. It's barely noticeable the way I installed it but if it were under the sink, it might be really noticeable. You can also use the pump instead of the shutoff valve (bypass the valve) or, if you really want to spend the extra money and get no added benefits from it, you can buy a special 90% shutoff valve. Either, using the pump as the shutoff valve or using the special valve, you increase your efficiency and pressure to the storage tank (for drinking water) by perhaps another 80%, close to 90% of incoming line pressure instead of 50 to 60.


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