# Icewater Mansion (An incomplete journal)



## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

I had started a general hardscape thread, but decided to bring this over here..as it's developed into a "sort of" journal. I don't have pre-set up pics, or a day to day thing..but I'll try from here out to keep a bit more consistent. Also..my set up is in a location that does not allow for a full front photo(tiny apt, only place I could fit it!), due to furniture in the way..so the images will always be slightly askew..
anyway..on with the show.
This is named after a line in the famous Gordon Lightfoot song, Wreak of the Edmund Fitzgerald. It's the name he gave to the icy depths of Lake Superior..which in some way's was the inspiration here. Indeed...it "may" better be called a bioscape, as opposed to Aquascape..but that's a judgment call.
Nealy everything in the aquarium, from the substrate on up, is "free range". The one exception is the moss on the wood...it's "store bough" as I could NOT find any submergent moss around her. Other then that..the rest is from nature herself. The substrate is sand from a small creek mouth flowing into Lake Michigan, the driftwood is from the same place. The rocks are from a local quarry, and the plants(and various hitch-hikers) are all from a couple of lakes locally. Once I get to the fish..those will also likely be wild caught, although I may also add some cool water tropicals..just not sure yet there.
Anyway...on with the show...
This was my original hardscape:









I then changed it to this:









After I got my first "catch" of plants..I realised that the slate, nice as it looked..cut too far back on what I wanted to do. Besides..I'd since found some really nice rocks, so after removing the slate and replacing it with rocks, and laying in the first "wave" of plantings... I ended up with this:









Several day's of growth, and with the addition of a few more plants today...here is where we currently stand:









Some details of various sections of the tank:




































Close up of leaf of "not sure Potamogeton". Looks like a curlyleaf..but I am not sure.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Beautiful! Keep it Natural! And why did you start a separate thread??


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

God.....I just can't believe how nice this looks!! Especially for a "noob." And your photography is great, too! I wish I could fast-forward time three weeks from now to see what this will look like!

If you want to keep it entirely North American.......replace the current moss with a bunch of Fissidens Fontanus. It will be a bit pricey, but the entire scape will be "true." I would get rid of the brown rock and replace it with a small boulder like the ones you already have in there.


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

I really like your new rocks and how you've placed them. It's so cool that your plants are collected locally. I'm very interested in seeing how this develops.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

donaldmboyer said:


> God.....I just can't believe how nice this looks!! Especially for a "noob." And your photography is great, too! I wish I could fast-forward time three weeks from now to see what this will look like!
> 
> If you want to keep it entirely North American.......replace the current moss with a bunch of Fissidens Fontanus. It will be a bit pricey, but the entire scape will be "true." I would get rid of the brown rock and replace it with a small boulder like the ones you already have in there.


Yeahhhh..but the current moss has really grown in well! We'll see though..if I can find some Fontanus locally, I'll likely start a change over. Now that I've gone all wild flora..anything from here on out, I'd like to keep that way.
I started the new thread only because the original had been really just to ask thoughts on the hardscape, I had not planned on a journal of any kind.
Also..while I initially thought that the idea of naming a tank was a bit odd...it grew on me, and I really liked the name "icewater mansion", so wanted to work that into the title of a thread)
If the admins think it's best to keep these in one thread however, I would ask that they re-merge them, I don't want to break any rules or anything!
I still need a mid ground plant, but have some ideas...indeed, the rocks and logs may well stand in as a sort of transition zone anyway, so it may not be needed. 
And I tend to agree on the brown rock...it does look out of place, and I'll likely swing by where I got the others soon, to get a replacement.
Now..to decide on fauna. I'm leaning toward redear sunfish. I found an amazing source of them..literaly thousands of 1-3 in. juveniles. I can literaly scoop them by the net full.
I have a couple of friends with large tanks, who are always adding new fish(we are talking one tank of over 1000 gallons..it's amazing!) to replace old age deaths, so if I do sunnies and eventualy tire of them..they have a given home. Otherwise, I'd run with shorter lived fish.
May still put in some sticklebacks and mud minnows, hopefully they can avoid the sunnies as the tank grows in, and provide some alternative "splash". Or..I may go with a schooling fish of some kind...daces or redtail shiners are currently what I am considering.
I'ts amazing the local fish that are truely stunning tank fish, if you let them be.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Oh, I don't think the administrators are going to have much of a problem with the new thread 

I suggest a nice shoal of shiners. No worries on midground species, though, if you wanted to find some sort of red ludwigia, that would look pretty sharp! Like you, most of my scapes were dominated by hardscape, and they turned out looking very nice (if I do say so myself )

As for Fissidens, check your local streams or creeks.....they tend to grow on rocks in fast currents. Otherwise, I could probably give you some. It won't be much, but it grows, and I'm pretty sure that you will like the outcome much better than the java moss you have on the wood right now. Not because it looks bad by any means, but it would be all native. Fissidens also grows very slowly, so you would likely need to supplement a few orders here and there, but it also makes it a cinch to keep it trimmed up and looking very nice. It also has a very unique look to it, and plenty of people here on this site and plantedtank.net sell it. $25 for a golfball size doesn't sound like much, but trust me....it would be enough to cover one or two of those boulders. Just an idea (as usual). Let me know if interested, if you can't find it in the streams and creeks around you. Also, it can grow along the banks as an emmersed form....no worries, it will switch to submersed once you...ummm.....submerse it! 

You have done a great job. I'm not certain why this scape sticks out so much to me as being so top of the line......I guess I can see the potential in what lies ahead. It is kind of opposite of a Steven Chong aquascape in a way.....I don't know.....just strikes a chord or something like that. Maybe it's because it reminds me of "home." Whatever. You've done a great job!

One thing for you consideration that I can see becoming problematic for you: The clean white boulders you have are going to start growing hair algae! Make sure you get plenty of shrimp, and you may want to consider adding Fissidens to them as well.......


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Donald, thanks for the offer of the moss. I will try to "source" it locally first, as I am finding that a good part of the enjoyment of this so far, is the collecting! I am also finding through research that a number of mosses can grow both emerged and submerged..so there may be other options anyway. It's an area that may have potential to introduce new plants to the community, even...so for now, I think I'll try to see what I can come up with here. For the moment, the current moss is doing ok though! I DO note that the moss(and ONLY the moss) has had a kind of "fuzz" on it..cannot tell if it's a fungus of some kind, or hair algae, but it's sort of grey in color, and just seems to create a thin "film" over much of the moss. Not all of it..but a good portion of it. It may just be that the moss does a good job of collecting silt out of the water, or a bacteria issue..we'll see, but so far, its only on the moss, and has been that way for quite some time.
Are you aware of any Fissidens growing in Michigan? From what little I can find..it seems to be a more southern species.
Oh, and shrimp. I am researching the "local" option there also..but may have to break ranks and go with ghost shrimp. Those are N.A. in origin though(or at least are naturalized), so at least it's not a complete cop out! I am just starting to see a bit of hair algae...I am hoping that the well planted tank, and lots of stems, holds it down..but I'll put some shrimp in soon anyway. Besides..once the sunnies go in if I go with those..the shrimp will be good for their diet!(sorry if that's offensive..but lets' face it, most ghost shrimp are used as feeder's anyway). I am hopfull that the heavy plant growth may offer enough cover to keep a steady suply going.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

NO CHANCE, man! Anything that will fit into a fishy's mouth is history. No offense taken.....I'm not one of those freaky invert people! HA!

No fissidens fontanus is true north northern american in nature. There are subspecies of Fissidens that range to southern reaches. It's a cool looking leafy moss man....you should check it out, at least so you know what you are looking for.

As for the grayish film....it's probably a fungus. It's harmless, and will go away on it's own eventually. You can siphon it off with a water change, or if you really hate it, you can throw some sea salt (Dr. Foster's Aquarium Salt) onto it, or dose it with a few eyedroppers full of hydrogen peroxide. It's not a big deal, though. Ottos will eat it.

If you enjoy the finding of your tank species, then stick to that. Even if I had the time, I wouldn't go to our creeks around here.....being that they are all part of the Rouge River, and likely filthy!! Any moss you find, though, make sure that it is at least partly underwater when you find it. Don't put anything in there that's going to rot, you know? 

If you change your mind on the Fissidens, PM me. I'll be happy to give you a bit, just so you can see what it looks like, how it grows, etc.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks again, I may still end up taking you up on that. I did find on the net, that Fissidens HAS been documented in Michigan, even Kent Co. where I live. As to the water quality..we are lucky here, we have a number of clean trout streams, and lake systems, withing a short drive..I've collected everything so far from lakes with no housing at all, in the state forest south of town, so I'm comfortable in the pollution sense.
Here is a sort of "panarama" made of 3 pics of the tank, as it stand today. The plants are growing very well, given that I have not even put on a co2 system(will likely try to cobble one up here shortly). I even took the first trim and re-plant of some of the stems today, and will continue to do that, to fill in the "forests" at either and, and behind the large driftwood pieces.
I have no fish yet..but did "test collect" a bunch today in some small steams. I was able to find tons of small sunfish(pumpkinseed, green, and bluegill), as well as 2 species of dace, some brilliant colored golden shiners, numerous sticklebacks, and 3 central mud minnows..one of which was nearly 5 inches long, and which really should have come home with me...it was a deep burgandy color almost, with bright green blotches, and looked like a mini-bowfin(other then the obvious different fin arrangement).
Hopefully when the time for fish comes I can find more like it.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Super-fantasic!!  Neat panoramic view!


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

I really love your tank! The boulders that you have used are quite nice and very different from what we usually see. 

I can't wait to see your fish!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks all.
Here's a pic from last night. Still no fish...I just cannot decide, and don't want to end up rushing into anything and then being stuck with fish for several years! Besides...the tank will be cycled at this point by the time any fish go in, so less stressfull, hopefully.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Dude.....if you are using native fish in your tank, why don't you just release them back into the wild from where you got them, and get something else instead?

Everything is starting to fill in very nicely, especially around the driftwood! Keep up the good work! I hope that foreground starts kickin for you soon! Probably still trying to adjust....do you see any new growth from the foreground plants?


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Yep, it's hard to see, but there is new growth on both types of foreground plants. They both are sending out little runners. It's very light growth, may be due to boarderline lighting...not sure, but it is definitily there. From what I read(and could be wrong), hairgrass it not the best low light plant, so it will no doubt take some time. And..I'm still not sure what the other stuff even is, so who knows. But..it's living, and very slowly growing..so that's good. The thing is..if you look at the bottom of "real" lakes, at the stuff..it appears to be "clumpy. It will grow in a little mat of 3 or 4 inches..then have open sand between it and the next one(speaking of hairgrass here). At least, that's what I've seen looking around. May bump the light up..but then I'd need to get Co2 and all of that, and really it's not in the current plans.
As for wild fish...the thing is, once you bring a fish in from outside, you really should not release it back...too much chance for spreading disease. Still, I will go wild, just need to decide which kind!


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I wouldn't worry about diseased-fish from your tank into the wild. I would worry more about bringing diseased fish into my aquarium. That, and you are already replicating almost to a "T" their natural environment anyways.

I can't fault you for being Eco-Minded, though.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> I wouldn't worry about diseased-fish from your tank into the wild. I would worry more about bringing diseased fish into my aquarium. That, and you are already replicating almost to a "T" their natural environment anyways.
> 
> I can't fault you for being Eco-Minded, though.


Yep, very true, and they would likely just end up in a couple of friends ponds anyway(unless they were river only fish...which is doubtful).
I am struggling just a bit with a little bit of "melt down" of the curly leafed pondweed, and some of the foxtail. The upper parts are growing fine, while the bases of some of them have disintegrated! I have pulled out any that were looking iffy, so the tanks is slightly lighter planted now..oh well, live and learn. From talking to some local fish keepers...it's very difficult apparently to get the curly leaf to establish, and the foxtail just seems to want to grow out well at the top, but die off at "ground level"..
I'll see how the rest goes..so far, the elodea is doing very well, rooting well, and the cryps(?) are settling in also..so they may be what ends up as the primary vertical flora. The micrso sword-type things are also sending out shoots, as are the dwarf hairgrass(although, very slowly). I may look for some more cryp's to replace the curly leaf and foxtail..if it continues to act up, may pull all of those out. SOME of the curly leaf has settled and rooted...but at this point, not sure I trust it long term.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Yeah man.....you are going to have to fire up that second light if that's happening to the foxtail. It dying at the base 'cause it isn't getting enough light. That's also why your hairgrass and microswords aren't spreading very fast either. Try staggering the lights so one comes on for 10 hours, the other one comes on two hours after the first one; then, after 10 hours, have the first one turn off, and two hours later have the second one turn off.

Try it.....even if you don't have CO2, you'll be probably very happy with the growth in a few weeks! You are fertilizing, right?


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Yeah man.....you are going to have to fire up that second light if that's happening to the foxtail. It dying at the base 'cause it isn't getting enough light. That's also why your hairgrass and microswords aren't spreading very fast either. Try staggering the lights so one comes on for 10 hours, the other one comes on two hours after the first one; then, after 10 hours, have the first one turn off, and two hours later have the second one turn off.
> 
> Try it.....even if you don't have CO2, you'll be probably very happy with the growth in a few weeks! You are fertilizing, right?


Don, I am already using 2 lights, but purchased a two bulb shoplight today($8 at home depot..the fish keepers best friend!). I will put a reflector on it, and have 160 watts total output then.
I am using flourish every 4th day or so..but may up the rate a bit(not excell..just regular flouish). May have to get some "regular" fert's as well?
btw, no new "melt" was noticed today..the plants added at least 1-2 inches just today, and seem to be stabilizing again. The elodea is again doing the best, IMO, so that may be my "money" plant in the end.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Elodea is a weed, man!! Very hardy, and almost impossible to kill!

I told you would be happy if you added more light and ferts.......Let me know in two weeks how happy you are! You don't need much, but if you run higher light with ferts, I promise you will be amazed!! And if you ever add CO2, pressurized or DIY, you will be even further amazed!

Looking forward to the Pics, man! Congrats on the new lighting and fert regimen.....I'm glad that it is working for you!

Don


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Don, ironic this is I've not even hooked the new lights up yet! So,..the stabilization is with the original two light system. The shop light needs some DIY treatment before it will work, the side walls are not tall enough to allow it to set on the aquarium w/o the light resting on the brace..not likely a good thing.
I do think the additional light will be a plus though, particularly for the forground plants. The new light will be more in the front anyway(as it is, the two-bulb system is positioned just back of center, as that's where the mass of plants are at), so should benefit the ground cover plants. I noticed that the foxtail that melted was ONLY that which I started from raw stalks..any I put in that had intact(or at least partial) root systems, is doing fine, rooting, and sending off shoots.
The pondweed seems about half and half..some taking root, some just melting..so have pulled out any "sick" individuals, and the rest now seem fine. I think it's a situation of marginal(low) light, and some plants just a bit under the thershold of health to start with. Hopefully now the rest will take and hold..so far, so good. This is my first attemt at a planted tank, and it's not like I took the easiest way anyway(wild plants in early spring, likely difficult to acclimate under the best of situations!)...but it's a learning experience!


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

The fun is in the learning! It isn't the easiest hobby, and because of that, it can be very rewarding because it is hard work. It really uses both "sides" of the brain; you use one side to be creative and perform the aquascaping, and you use the other side to try to problem-solve and troubleshoot. When everything is working well, it is very satisfying!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> The fun is in the learning! It isn't the easiest hobby, and because of that, it can be very rewarding because it is hard work. It really uses both "sides" of the brain; you use one side to be creative and perform the aquascaping, and you use the other side to try to problem-solve and troubleshoot. When everything is working well, it is very satisfying!


Yep, very true!
The plants I left have quickly re-filled any holes..and are doing well. STILL have not got the other light up and running..but not it's not looking so needed anyway, so I can take my time. The ground cover continues to slowly fill in, but I've noticed in the last few days, a bit of "quickening" of the pace there. Still...I think it will take quite a bit of time. That's fine though, they are growing, all that counts.
Many of the tall plants are quickly covering the surface, so I'll be needing to do some trimming again soon, and likely re-plant the results to "thicken up" the "forested areas".
Still no fish...but all the time in the world for that, and besides...the small sun fish will soon be available.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

You can't rush perfection! 

Are you "topping" the plants? Sounds like everything's going well! Show me a pic of it later in the week, if you can!

Oh, and by the way, I hope that whomever voted on this thread already needs to have a tiny amount of foresight. Three outta five. Gimme a break!! This one's going far......give it some time. I promise that there isn't another scape out there that will look like this one in a few months.....promise!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Here it is tonight. I likely should start topping the plants..but just hate to cut them too early! I really like the completely wild look that is developing anyway I'm sure the fish will like it!
As can be seen, the plant are growing in well, although I will again soon need to do some trimming...and the ground cover is finally starting to kick in!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Oh, I need to add, this is an "artificial" perspective..the root/drifwood system in reality is centered a bit more to the right(not much, but maybe 10 percent). I think I mentioned before, I am in a tiny apt. and have a bed in the way of a full frontal pic...so I take an angled view, and to the best of my ability, re-set the perspective using GIMP. Eventually Ill take the time to move the bed for a clear shot, once it's fully matured.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Any thoughts on maybe trying to hide the filter intake a bit? And I wouldn't worry about topping the plants....it will keep them healthy and cause them to grow back thicker!! 

Comin' along, NP!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Any thoughts on maybe trying to hide the filter intake a bit? And I wouldn't worry about topping the plants....it will keep them healthy and cause them to grow back thicker!!
> 
> Comin' along, NP!


As to the filter, nah...it does not bother me, as in the end this is still meant not so much to be a showpiece, but to be a habitat for fish..so the filter intake is just part of that!
I may top some plants after the weekend, but I really don't mind them growing to fill the surface..as again, it adds to the impression of a shallow lake bottom..which is exactly what I am trying to emulate.
Still..eventually I'll no doubt have to, just so sufficient light can make it to the bottom.
What I DO need to do, is likely sacrifice the idea of ONLY native fauna..as I cannot come up with good algae control "help" and I am starting to need it!(more and more hair algae showing up).
Will no doubt break down and get some ottos or shrimp here soon.
STILL undecided on what fish will eventually be housed..but leaning toward small sunfish species, or a mix of dace and other small active fish, and maybe mudminows or darters for "splash".


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Yes, NP....the intake may not bother you, but it bothers the important viewer, like me 

Just kidding.

You could get ghost shrimp to put in there, but I'd be careful to watch what fish you put in there then! They'll end up as tasty snacks for the fishies!

As for the shallow lake look, I would agree, except if plants hit the surface, the stems and leaves that are below the water start looking "leggy" and otherwise kinda gross. Maybe keep some at the surface to keep that "shallow lake" feel to it, but replant some tops to show new, thick, and healthy growth too, just like what happens in a shallow lake! 

Have you thought about using hydrogen peroxide to kill the hair algae? Just dose "infected" areas with an eyedropper full or two for each area. The hair algae will turn white the next day, and disintegrate the following few days afterwards. It's really cool, actually! I have done it, and will never use anything else. I dosed my 40 gallon with it about two months ago, and it took until about a week ago for me to notice any hair algae. But new hair algae growth is showing up on different areas, and not the same areas that I dosed!!! It takes all of a minute now to treat my tank for hair algae every month and a half! Very nice!

Don't over-do it! It can be poisonous to plants in high doses and poisonous to inverts and fish in low doses, so watch it. Once it starts bubbling, it is harmless, but if you have a lot of hair algae, it is best to treat an area one day, do a slight water change the next day and treat a different area. Repeat until all areas have been erradicated! Try it! I swear by it now!

For fish selection, I would pick two varieties of something SMALL! They will be more active together.

Looking forward to another pic update!
Don


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## Tankman (Feb 19, 2006)

yeah, looking forward to an update later ;-)


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Dan..how large of an area do you treat at a time, and do you use a dilute solution?
I will likely go "natural" at first..ottos and shrimp. I know the shrimp will eventually end up(likely) as chow..but so be it, that's nature also! However...the hydrogen peroxide treatment sounds interesting.
May also try the flourish excell treatment.
I am leaning toward a wild version of a community tank, at the moment. I have access to a population of naturally dwarf pumpkinseed sunfish(never seen one in the lake over about 4" in length..most smaller), so that and some fast movers for action are where I'm looking now.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

How much to dose with H2O2? I've turned mine into seltzer water before with no ill effects, though I would probably get yelled at here at APC if people knew that 

I would say that you could treat your driftwood one day for hair algae spots, then do 25% of your tank each day until it's gone. You are lucky because you don't have any fauna in there yet, so you could use more. Avoid applying the hydrogen peroxide directly to plant roots......that could be bad, but usually the H2O2 reacts well before it has a chance to make it that deep into the substrate.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks Don.
I decided today to start with some shrimp. I got a good price on a half dozen amano's...$1.49 each, so in they went.
I am amazed at how fast these things work! In less then a day, they have easily wiped out the hair algae on all of the rocks, and have worked a good portion of the hairgrass over! IF I go sunfish...I owe it to these guys to keep them alive..so will either set up a seperate tank(I have a spare 20 gallon taking up space), or trade them in at a good LFS I recently found(if they do trades..othwise..will perhaps put them up for grabs for free here).
May not even NEED the ottos or Excel at this rate..
Here are a couple of pics of the new grounds crew hard at work!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

An update.
The shrimp have completely taken care of the algae...amazing things. I am not running any co2, and still running just one double light strip, for about 2wpg. I have been using 1/2 strength doses of excel, however. The hairgrass and micro swords continue to very slowly fill in, but the rest of the plants are doing spectacular. Most have begun branching to fill in any "light gaps"..but the central area remains open.
Still no fish....refuse to make a decions untill I am sure. I do think I'm going to get some dwarf sunfish and a mix of schooling fish..species tba. No hurry.
Here is the tank as of an hour or so ago.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I'm really shocked to see such amazing growth with no CO2, 2wpg, and half doses of excel! Looks like it's turning out very well! I'm sure that it will be amazing once the hairgrass finishes filling in! Nice job, NP!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> I'm really shocked to see such amazing growth with no CO2, 2wpg, and half doses of excel! Looks like it's turning out very well! I'm sure that it will be amazing once the hairgrass finishes filling in! Nice job, NP!


Donald, I am wondering if it's due to the plant's I chose? These are wild plants that have here in Michigan a fairly short window of opportunity to do all of their growing for a season..in some cases, only a few months total. Perhaps they are simply able to better utilize even lower levels of light, and less then perfect conditions...a sort of "survival of the fittest? I also wonder if the castings from the shrimp are serving to fertilize the plants to some degree...I've noticed a bit of a growth spurt since putting in the shrimp, although that may also just be due to the minimized competition with the algae(and the fact that none of the plants have an algae coating now). The moss it just incredible..looks like a pine forest covered mountain! 
I don't know if I'll ever get a very thick carpet of hairgrass. There are all kinds of single shoots coming up in the openings between the "clumps" I planted..but they are just individuals. However..the rate of "pop up" of these is increasing...so given time, they will fill in. However...any of the fish I end up with will be used to a mix of open and covered bottom..so from a realism standpoint, the "diffuse" growth on the bottom is actually the norm.
In the last week and a half, I have had several val-type plants literally spring from the sand..NO idea where they came from. I stuck some bulb looking things in when I first planted and had forgotten about them..so I'm thinking that it just took a while for them to acclimate and decide to become active.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

It's an interesting concept re: survival of the fittest. More than likely, I think that they just started growing like mad when you introduced them to more favorable growing conditions earlier than they are used to is all. I will guarantee that your hairgrass will be very full in another month!! Shrimp castings is probably negligable as far as fertilizer is concerned......have you thought about adding iron? Once you add fish, then there will be some NH4 and N2 ferts in there that will be helpful for the plant load. Looking forward to the addition of fish! It'll add a new dimension to your tank, and be nicer for you to look at. And yes, your moss is incredible!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Ok..we now have fish!
In keeping with the "gone native" theme..these were all collected from the same water as the plants.
I have a school of 14 northern weed shiners..which under good light are just amazing looking!
They are a sort of "golden brass" color, with emerald iridescence, and they flash brilliant chrome when they turn...very nice fish!
Here some are:

























I also put in a half dozen central mud minnows. Bland name..but really cool fish!
I have some reddish ones, and yellow/green ones..no idea if it's a sex differentiation or just "one of those things". Either way...they spend most of their time hiding, but occasionaly come out from under the logs and very carefully pick away at what I assume are tiny "critters" on the bottom and plants. They are very difficult to photograph, as unlike the shiners..they are very spooky. Hopefully as they get used to their new home, they will loosen up a bit. Here are my sad pics so far:


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Nice job with the fish, NP!!!! Very cool!

How about a full tank shot? Looks like that moss it REALLY kickin' in, and I would like to see how everything else is doing!


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## HoustonFishFanatic (Feb 26, 2007)

The tank looks very natural. Like a real river bed. Your choice of native fish has added more flavor to the lay out.


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

DonaldmBoyer said:


> Nice job with the fish, NP!!!! Very cool!
> 
> How about a full tank shot? Looks like that moss it REALLY kickin' in, and I would like to see how everything else is doing!


I promise I will..but not until after some house cleaning Two type of plants gave up the ghost(the pondweed in particular, and one of the stem type)...so I removed them...as a result, it's looking a bit sparse! The ground cover has really not changed at all...its VERY slowly filling in, but I suspect we are talking months here at least. Which is fine..as honestly, the fish species I have put in are sand/mud bottom dwellers(the mud minnows) so exposed bottom is much to their liking. Also, I have established a population of amphipods, and they like to roam the sand also(and are providing great sport hunting for the mud minnows).
I plan on trimming and re-planting a bunch of the elodea and foxtail, as well as adding in some more vals to fill in the gaps in the two plant beds.
As you noted..the moss however is just amazing...I could do a nice tank with nothing more then moss, hairgrass, and elodea, I really think.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

This is really coming out awesome.

How has acclimation been?


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

What's goin' on with the tank, NP? Any updates?


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry, been busy for a bit!
It's going..but I had a bit of a hiccup. Nothing major, but the look has not changed much.
I had a MAJOR ick outbreak, and since the fish are my first priority, the plants came second..and suffered quite a bit through the curing process. I used a salt/heat/Malachite green cure, which saved EVERY fish(no deaths at all), but was hell on the plants and snails..
The moss did fine, and the stem plants pulled through fair also, but everything else died.
SO...I replanted the hair grass, and thined out the stems to try to get them to "bush out" more, and will see how it goes.
Water parameters are excellent, and the fish themselves are doing very well. The ick, I belive, came in with the wild plants, and I think that a very small electrical short in the heater that I found, had the fish stressed to the point of loss if immunity..and so it went.
Anyway....once it re-fills back in, I'll post some new photos!


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Wow...I let this thread drop!
Since we last met...I have done a semi-rework of the tank after adding some rock loving fish.
Gave up on the ground cover, but in other regards, the tank is a great success. It's always been a fish-first tank, and given that it's a wild tank(all natives save a few java fern), I have encouraged the "wild and wooly" aspect..and maintainance is all about the fish, and the extent of my trimming is to make "paths" through the jungle.
For the fish..this is perfect. Here is a full frontal, along with some of the current residents.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Very pretty and quite a change. I really like the natural feel it has. Are the new additions of fish native as well?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Definitely has that 'wild' look to it. What are the fish? Is the flag fish native to your area also?


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## forrestcook (Mar 18, 2008)

in your series of fish pics, what is the first one? It's beautiful!


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

This tank has a great natural feel. I appreciate your ability to let it go and do it's thing with minimal input, I always have trouble with fussing when I try to do that. Those fish are just so cool, it's easy to forget that there are some great native fish since they aren't in pet stores.


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## cah925 (Jun 23, 2007)

Very cool looking fish, I'm also curious what they are.


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## stewy098 (Mar 6, 2008)

tank looks very nice and whats the second pic of the fish


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## thief (Feb 20, 2008)

Wow the layout is awsome. Such an amazing fish!!! what is it?


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## npnailer (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks guys!
The first fish is a rainbow darter. This is a particularly well colored male..but it's honestly pretty representative of the species. They are one of the most common darters, and are found across the central and north central part of the country. Many of you likely have them within a few miles of you right now.
The flag fish is not native to my area, but it IS a north American native..so it counts
Same for the black banded sunfish..they are native to areas well east of me, but they are among the smallest of the "standard" sunfish, and least offensive, so I prefer them to locals that get much larger and indeed, would eventually kill most of the tank residents. Still...all the fish in the tank at the moment are native to the U.S.


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