# How much Iron are you folks dosing?



## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Hi folks. I'm just curious of something. I have 2 heavily planted 75gallon medium to high light co2 injected tanks. My tap water is hard with a reading of 260+ ppm on my TDS meter. I don't know the Ca Mg breakdown, but the pH is about 7.8 to 8.0 degassed.

My question is, for tank parameters similar to mine, how much trace mix or CSM+B(which is what I use) as well as your regular macro ferts are you dosing to keep deficiencies from occurring? I just want to figure out if I'm in the ball park here.

I am adding 1/4 teaspoon CSM+B to each tank once per day, 7 days per week, and 1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4, 1/4 teaspoon K2SO4, 1/4 teaspoon KNO3, and 1 teaspoon MgSO4 3 times per week. But even at that dosage, I still suspect some kind of deficiency.

Thanks for any help,
Nate


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Post some pics of your plants if you are seeing bad signs of growth. 

You are adding 1.75 ppm Iron per week. I'd say that is definitely on the high side. Toxicities tend to happen at above 1 ppm concentration. Toxicities can look similar to deficiencies. I'd cut back the CSM+B to 1/4 tsp 3x a week, that will keep you at about 0.75 ppm which is a safe dose.

You are adding 2.81 ppm nitrate each time you dose 1/4 tsp. Not very much at all considering nitrate is one of the most used nutrients that plants need. I'd add more like 8-9 ppm per dose for a weekly total of about 25 ppm. You should be adding about 3/4 tsp three times a week for your tank size and setup.

You are adding 5.25 ppm phosphate each week, which is an extremely high amount. Plants usually do not need more than 1-2 ppm a week in a high tech tank. You should be adding about 1/24 tsp 3x a week.

The MgSO4 addition is probably unnecessary since most water has enough Mg and Ca in it. I'd stop adding it altogether. Plants very rarely develop magnesium deficiencies.

I'd consider adding K2SO4 instead since many plants can develop K deficiencies even when other nutrients are supplied in decent amounts. 3/4 tsp three times a week will give you enough.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Hi Zap.

I have posted pics several times. You're the guy who has told me on multiple occasions that my plants look like they have an Iron deficiency. So I upped my CSM+B dosage. I used to dose at 1/4 tsp 3 times per week back when you gave me your previous responses.

1) You must have missed that I am adding K2SO4 at the rate of 1/4 tsp 3 times per week. How much more might I need? Between the KNO3, KH2PO4, and the K2SO4 I add, my calculator puts me around 12ppm of K.

2) You're not taking into account the nitrates from natural decay from fish waste, food, and plant decay. My tanks test at about 20 to 40 ppm nitrate. Just tested, retested, and reference tested. Test kit is good.

3) Same situation for phosphate. My tanks test between 2 and 3 ppm PO4. Test kit is working correctly.

Just so you know, I'm not new at this. I've been doing this for over 10 years now and my normal dosing routine had worked like a charm up until this past year or so. Co2 is good, same type and spectrum of lights I have always used. It's almost like a light switch has been flipped. This is why I have suspected that my city water has changed somehow. I've tried everything I can think of. This last year, nothing I have tried has come close to restoring the previous decade of growth I once enjoyed.

Any other ideas you might think of that I've missed?

Thanks for your help,
Nate


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

RedDelPaPa said:


> I have posted pics several times. You're the guy who has told me on multiple occasions that my plants look like they have an Iron deficiency. So I upped my CSM+B dosage.


Not to knit pick or come off in a confrontational manner, but rereading my replies from our previous 2 threads from 5 months ago I did not say it was definitely iron deficiency. I said that it _looks _like a lack of iron due to the similarities with iron deficiency and possible high pH issues. I also asked quite a few extra questions that were not answered and there was no update to the threads on the status of the plants. Usually when this happens it is because the person has solved the issue and has simply forgotten to update the thread to let us know.

Sometimes it is easy to pinpoint an exact deficiency using visual cues from a single photo or two, other times it is less easy and requires some experimentation and a lot of questions to figure out what is causing the issue. It seems your case is a bit more tricky than the average.

Our previous 2 threads for reference:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plant-deficiencies/98978-need-some-help.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...210-problem-growing-hygrophila-corymbosa.html



RedDelPaPa said:


> I used to dose at 1/4 tsp 3 times per week back when you gave me your previous responses.


If I had known how much CSM+B you were adding at the time (which I did ask for in both threads) I would not have recommended adding more. 1/4th tsp should be enough and levels much above that can become toxic to plants over time.



RedDelPaPa said:


> 1) You must have missed that I am adding K2SO4 at the rate of 1/4 tsp 3 times per week. How much more might I need? Between the KNO3, KH2PO4, and the K2SO4 I add, my calculator puts me around 12ppm of K.


Yes I did miss the K2SO4 info.



RedDelPaPa said:


> 2) You're not taking into account the nitrates from natural decay from fish waste, food, and plant decay. My tanks test at about 20 to 40 ppm nitrate. Just tested, retested, and reference tested. Test kit is good.


Ok. With 20-40 ppm nitrate there shouldn't be nitrogen deficiencies.

How are you calibrating your test? How do you know they are accurate?

Also, how much plant decay is in the tank? If it is a substantial amount of decay or there is a fair bit of mulm on the bottom it could cause issues with the plants.



RedDelPaPa said:


> 3) Same situation for phosphate. My tanks test between 2 and 3 ppm PO4. Test kit is working correctly.


Ok, but how was the reading taken/calibrated? Are the plants actually growing quickly or not at all?

Also, how is it that the tank is using up so much phosphate each week? Dosing 5.25 ppm phosphate / week even in rapidly growing high tech tanks is very unusual. For comparison, even in my 90g tank stuffed full of plants with high CO2 and light the tank I was dosing about 1-2 ppm a week. Even EI's recommendations (which are meant to be grossly over estimated to cover all the bases) recommends using 2.53 ppm a week total for a 60-80g tank.

The maximum dose your tank could have with a 50% weekly water change is twice what you are adding. So for phosphates your actual value could be anywhere up to as high as 10.5 ppm.

If your plants are not growing quickly or at all because of the growth issues you mentioned in your previous threads then they shouldn't be capable of absorbing that much phosphate if any. Something isn't adding up here.



RedDelPaPa said:


> Just so you know, I'm not new at this. I've been doing this for over 10 years now and my normal dosing routine had worked like a charm up until this past year or so. Co2 is good, same type and spectrum of lights I have always used. It's almost like a light switch has been flipped. This is why I have suspected that my city water has changed somehow. I've tried everything I can think of. This last year, nothing I have tried has come close to restoring the previous decade of growth I once enjoyed.
> 
> Any other ideas you might think of that I've missed?


I had not assumed you were new to the hobby, you've been a member of APC since 2005 which puts you in the hobby for at least 10 years, probably more. But I've found that starting from square 1 with all plant problems and working methodically through the possibilities gives the best results. At the same time it is worth noting that seen from my end of things it is difficult to make an accurate diagnosis without knowing all the facts.

I do have a few more questions about the plants and setup in general if you wouldn't mind answering them?

Was the pH always so high? If not, what was it before?

Is there any salt in the water system? A house water softener?

Does your water source have chlorine in it? Do you add dechlorinator? Anything for chloramine?

Is there any ammonia in the water?

How long did it take for the plants to stop growing and get like this (when it first started)? Did it happen abruptly over the course of a few days or a week, or did it take several months to happen?

Does anything make the plants grow more healthily or get worse?

When was the last time you changed the light bulbs?

And of course, more photos of the plants would be very helpful. In particular pictures of the new leaves and the old leaves along with a full plant shot would be helpful. If you can take the pictures head on with the glass so there is no distortion that would help. Also a picture of the plants from the surface of the water directly down would be helpful (stop the filter for a minute to prevent ripples). The more photos of the plants, and the more species of plant shown in the photos the easier it will be to tell what the problem is, especially if the photos are as clear and color corrected as possible.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Ok Bub. Thanks for your help. I will get to answering your questions and providing you as much info as I can tomorrow when I get home from work.

Thanks again,
Nate


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

No problem, I'll look out for your post.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

Wow!
1/4 tsp daily in a 75.
Iron seems to be the most overly dosed of all the nutrients. Its a micro not a macro.

I have a 75 with medium/high light and CO2. I dose 3mls (liquid CSMB) 3 times a week and 6mls of Flourish twice a week and I think that's too much. I, however, have very soft water.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Ok Zap, I'll address your concerns and questions line by line.

1) My pH is high 7's degassed. Low 7's in the tank under co2 injection.

2) My tap water is listed as almost zero in phosphate and nitrate from my local water report. My test kits reflect this. Also, the reference solutions test out correctly as well.

3) Plant decay and mulm is minimal. Nothing in excess of what I've always had.

4) My hygro polysperma is growing decent, my hygro corymbosa is barely growing at all. Man are covered in some algae because of it. The leaves are twisty, textured, and pale yellow with somewhat green veins.

5) My 2 plant tanks are 75gal linked together, circulated, and fed by a drip feed system calibrated at 70gal per week. The output is routed to a drain via a leveling siphon. So that might better explain why my phosphates are between 2 and 3 ppm. My tanks operate very much like a natural lake. Constant slow clean water in, dirty water out.

6) I don't believe my pH has changed much over the years. My water has always been hard alkaline.

7) There shouldn't be any Sodium in the system. I do have a water softener and always have. With my feed water to my tanks coming from a tap placed well before the softener system.

8) My water feed is plumbed through a 3 stage carbon filter system which eliminates chlorine, chloramine, etc. Cartridges are fresh. I have operated the system bypassing the filters for several months in the past with no noticeable effects.

9) According to my tests, there is zero ammonia in my water. Fish show no signs of any stress.

10) Plant growth was always good, and then it seemed all of a sudden my duckweed which I've always had, just rotted and went away, in a 10 gallon tank below my main plants tanks which is fed by the output from the 75gal tanks. Shortly after that, I noticed the plants in my 75's struggling and algae starting to establish itself. I would say it took a few months to really set in.

11) The only thing that seems to help slightly is overdosing excel. But I think only because of its negative effects on algae. It keeps the leaves free of algae. Something else weird. All plants seem to pearl like mad throughout the day, yet grow slowly.

12) My current set of bulbs are fresh. Roughly 3 months. These ahsupply 5500k 55watt CF tubes generally last me roughly 18 months. Lights on for 10hrs, same as I've always done.



I will go to work getting some more pics up for you.

Thanks again, Zap.

Nate


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Ok, here are some fresh pics as of today.


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

Looks like a lite case of Rhodophyta type 2


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Newt, what does that mean?


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

RedDelPaPa said:


> Newt, what does that mean?


The dark green/black stuff on the leaves. Its a type of algae. I've nicknamed it black tar algae.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Looking at the newest plant photos you posted I do not see obvious signs of damage in the new leaves. This means that either there is no deficiency (and something else is causing the issue) or the deficiency is one of the mobile nutrients and would therefore only show up in the old leaves. If it is a deficiency it is limited to N, P, K, or Mg. Assuming your nitrate kit is correct then we can eliminate N. Phosphate is definitely out since the huge amount you are dosing should take care of that, and Mg is also out since plants only need a tiny amount of that and you are already adding it and your water is hard. This leaves K as a possibility.

K (potassium) is needed in large amounts (20-30 ppm per week in the average CO2 injected tank) and is especially needed for Hygrophila plants. They seem to use more than other species and will easily develop K deficiency when deprived of it. K deficiency usually shows up as pinholes in the older leaves which are surrounded by a yellow margin and will be scattered across the entire leaf in a random pattern. This is usually highly visible and easy to recognize.

I did not see the holes mentioned in any of your recent pictures (which were focused on the newer leaves and not the ones near the base of the stems), but I looked back at your original photos and I do see some old leaf damage that looks like it might be pin holes which have merged and damaged the old leaf fairly badly. *Can you manually check the oldest leaves on the plant for pinholes in the leaves? **If you find any can you remove the leave at the base of the stem and take a picture of it? *There should be quite a few leaves with this issue if it is K, not just 1 out of 100. See the pictures at the end of the post for some examples of K deficiency.

I calculated out how much K you are adding per week right now and it is 15 ppm. While this number is not terribly low in the average tank, it is definitely on the lower side of dosing considering that you are pretty much growing only hygrophilas.

*To eliminate potassium as a possibility can you increase the amount of K2SO4 you are adding to 3/4 tsp three times a week?* This will put you in the 25-30 ppm range and should tell us if a lack of K is the problem within a week or two. The plants should start growing faster.



RedDelPaPa said:


> 1) My pH is high 7's degassed. Low 7's in the tank under co2 injection.


*How much CO2 are you injecting? Have you tried raising the bubble rate? Any effect?*



RedDelPaPa said:


> 2) My tap water is listed as almost zero in phosphate and nitrate from my local water report. My test kits reflect this. Also, the reference solutions test out correctly as well.


To calibrate test kits you can start with distilled water from the grocery shop, then add a known amount of KNO3 to a certain amount of water and test it. If the test kit result matches what your calculations are then the kit is accurate. I'd start with the 20-30 ppm range and see if its the same color as what you are getting on your tank.



RedDelPaPa said:


> 4) My hygro polysperma is growing decent, my hygro corymbosa is barely growing at all. Man are covered in some algae because of it. The leaves are twisty, textured, and pale yellow with somewhat green veins.


Algae will often grow prolifically when there is a nutrient deficiency. This is probably because plants are worse affected by nutrient deficiencies than algae and cannot compete with algae when they do not have the nutrients they need. Algae can also feed off damaged plants to get the nutrients they need and will tend to bloom under these conditions. Once the plants are healthy most species of algae tend to be reduced. Though some species like black beard and cladophora will not be affected by healthy plants to the same degree.



RedDelPaPa said:


> 5) My 2 plant tanks are 75gal linked together, circulated, and fed by a drip feed system calibrated at 70gal per week. The output is routed to a drain via a leveling siphon. So that might better explain why my phosphates are between 2 and 3 ppm. My tanks operate very much like a natural lake. Constant slow clean water in, dirty water out.


*How did you calibrate the water change system?* I also have a constant flow water change system and it tends to flush out more water than I had originally planned. Yours might be doing the same which might be why the PO4 levels are lower than expected even with a 50% water change/week. If it is somehow off and doing larger water changes than you think it could easily explain the stunted growth in the plants you are seeing. Flushing out more nutrients than expected would quickly deplete the amount in the tank. *If possible I recommend you check it out and make sure it is changing the amount you think it is.*



RedDelPaPa said:


> 10) Plant growth was always good, and then it seemed all of a sudden my duckweed which I've always had, just rotted and went away, in a 10 gallon tank below my main plants tanks which is fed by the output from the 75gal tanks. Shortly after that, I noticed the plants in my 75's struggling and algae starting to establish itself. I would say it took a few months to really set in.


*Was the amount of plants when you first started our and had the plants growing fast and well the same as when they started dying off? Or was there more plant mass around the time of the die off? *



RedDelPaPa said:


> 11) The only thing that seems to help slightly is overdosing excel. But I think only because of its negative effects on algae. It keeps the leaves free of algae. Something else weird. All plants seem to pearl like mad throughout the day, yet grow slowly.


Excel will help kill the algae yes, but will not help deficient plants grow any faster.

Also, pearling is not a sign of health. Unhealthy plants can pearl as well. Pearling just tells you that the plants can photosynthesize and convert CO2 and water into sugars and oxygen. It does not tell you if the plants can build new plant tissue and cells (which requires the both the energy from the sugar made while pearling and also the essential plant nutrients like NPK and Traces).

K deficiency, notice only the old leaves are affected and new ones are slightly more pale than normal:









Moderate K deficiency:









Severe K deficiency:


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Zapins,

Wow, ok. I was not aware that much K was needed in a heavily hygro planted, Co2 injected, high light tank. So you figured I'm adding 15ppm of K. Minus usage, minus the drip feed system? That might have me in the single digits or below on K then. Yes?

I have a few leaves that look very much like the moderate deficiency photo you posted. It's on leaves that have detached from the plants and have floated up and wrapped themselves around my surface skimmer. But I'm hard pressed to find leaves like that, that are still connected to the plant stems and visible.

My Co2 drop checker is lime green with 4dkh water. My Co2 is set just below what causes respiratory stress to my fish. My peacocks, particularly the female peacocks are the most sensitive to the Co2.

My drip feed system operates with a .006" orifice on a pressure regulator set at 30psi. This works about to roughly 66 gallons per week. I got these orifices from a company called okeefe controls. google them. I checked it into a milk jug when I first set it up and it was pretty accurate. I can check it again to be sure.

My plant mass has always been about the same. Maybe a little thicker now than in the past.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Here's my orifice flow rate chart from the Okeefe Controls catalog.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Attached or floating if they have those pinholes its very likely a K deficiency.

K is pretty nontoxic, so even if you were to dose 45 ppm a week it wouldn't harm anything. It is one of the safest nutrients to add.

Most people using EI get an ok amount from adding KNO3, but since you have high nitrates from the fish and don't add the normal amount it makes sense that you'd be more vulnerable to K issues.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Zapins,

That's what I'm kinda thinking myself. Makes sense.

Thanks for all your help, bub. I'll up my K for a week or so and see if things start turning around.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Definitely. Looking forward to the update. Hope it solves the issue.

If you get the chance posting a pic of a few of the leaves with holes would also be helpful to double check.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Next time I fish one out, I will do that.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Zapins,

Here's one I just found.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Yep, I think we have the culprit. Highly likely to be K deficiency if not certainly K deficiency.

You know, I think on the first dose just add 4 tsp, the same as 25.3 grams of K2SO4 (40 ppm), then you can do 3x a week 3/4 tsp like we discussed.

This way the plants won't deplete the water column of K as they such up the nutrient during the first week. It will also prevent the water change system from flushing out too much and give you a bit of a buffer for the weeks ahead.

Do you have a digital scale by the way? They are quite handy.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Well I hope so. It's better to have a problem and know what it is, than to have a problem and not know what it is.

I will do that. Tomorrow is my macro day.

Yes I have a digital scale.

Thanks again for your help,
Nate


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

No problem. I'll keep an eye out for the update.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Hi folks.

It's been about a week now, and I don't think I have seen any improvement.

I'm back to thinking the problem is not being caused by something lacking in my water, but rather from something that IS in my water.

I'm curious of something. Those of you who have a TDS meter, can you tell me what the reading is in your planted tanks that are growing well?

My TDS reading in my planted tanks is 390ppm.
My tap water reading is 256ppm.


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## thunderjack14 (Nov 28, 2014)

I dose 4 gram of dry CSM+B with 2 gram of Chelated Iron (11%) (DTPA) on 150 U.S gallon tank twice a week but it depends on the kind of plants you have i have java ferns and anubias crypts and amazon swords and they don't need that much Iron.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm. It is possible that something in the water is causing problems, but that would not be easy to solve without getting an RO system to purify the water.

So the plant's are not growing slightly faster? 

The old leaves will not heal by the way, all the changes will be in the new leaves.

It might just take another week for the plants to start growing. The holes in the old leaves are pretty specific about K deficiency. How much are you adding per week?


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Hi Zap.

Remember what I told you back when my problem started. It just seemed like a switch had been thrown. Everything growing nicely to all of a sudden, most plants now struggling and growing slowly, to some plants completely dying off. Like my duckweed. I had a ton of duckweed in a 20L guppy tank. It was growing so well I was scooping out a handful of the stuff weekly to feed to my cichlids. And then all of sudden, within 2 or 3 weeks, the stuff was just gone. Every last bit of it.

I have tried every combination of everything to get these tanks back to the growing state they once displayed for years. This stuff isn't hard. Proper light, CO2, temps, and a moderate excess of every nutrient plants need to grow and boom, a tank full of healthy fast growing algae free plants. Like a light switch, I went from this, to now nothing works or even appears to make any difference.

The best explanation/possibility in my mind is, my city water folks decided to add some new chemical to the water supply, or to increase the concentration of some chemical they were already adding. To the point that now my plants can't deal with it and adapt to it and now display a permanent sign of deficiency.

Your thoughts?


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## Newt (Apr 1, 2004)

Call your water department and ask if there have been any changes: source of the water, additives, sterilizers, buffers, corrosion inhibitors, etc.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Newt said:


> Call your water department and ask if there have been any changes: source of the water, additives, sterilizers, buffers, corrosion inhibitors, etc.


Hi Newt. I tried that. They're a bunch of incompetent knuckleheads. No one knows anything. They transferred me around eventually ending up back talking to the same person I started with. 

I don't want to give up on this planted tank hobby, but I want to test things until I find the cause. I have a nice Spectrapure RODI unit. I'm thinking of making reconstituted RO water and refilling my tanks with that and watching it close for a month to see what happens.

Can someone give me a breakdown as to what chemicals I'd need and how much to do such a thing?

Thanks,
Nate


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Any news?

Did the RO water improve things?

The RO membrane will eliminate most of the stuff in your water. Mine usually gets me down to 15-20 TDS. One of the RO unit resins they sell on ebay and amazon (not too expensive) will get you down to 0. But I'm not sure that this is entirely necessary. 

As for reconstituting water, you basically just need CaCl2 and MgSO4 to raise the GH. There are many premade products that will do this, or you can just buy the two chemicals and use the fertilator calculator top left to figure out how many ppm you want to add. A GH of 6-10 is a good range to shoot for.

You'll also need to buffer the water a little bit, you can use a small amount of baking soda, or another buffer.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Hi Zap. I haven't seen any improvement as of yet. I'm at my wits end. One thing I thought of early on that I haven't yet tested is, could my substrate be depleted to the point that it's no longer able to sustain the level of growth that good lighting and Co2 is capable of producing? I plan to get a fresh bag of flourite, fill a pan, plant a few trimmings of my hygro corymbosa , and then place that pan in one of my plant tanks for a few weeks and see if the trimmings take off and out grow the rest of the tank. This should confirm the role my substrate is playing in all this. What do you think?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Fluorite doesn't provide many if any nutrients to plants. It is for all purposes an inert substrate. 

I like your idea though. Take some potting soil (Scotts premium topsoil works well) and put some of that into a container, then cover it with fluorite and plant some of your hygros in it. As you mentioned, it would rule out nutrient deficiencies as the issue if these plants started growing fast.

Sorry for the delayed reply. Lots of work on my plate in real life :/


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

I used plain flourite because that matches what the tank was originally set up with that worked so well. 

Anyway, I'm totally stumped as to what else to try next.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

FWIW This sounds like the kind of thing that happens when something dies in a tank and goes un-noticed.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

Every thing is good, Bruce. Except for my plants.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I am just trying to say that it looks and sounds more like a toxic reaction than a deficiency. Duckweed is often killed off like that by high heavy metal levels for instance. I’m not really sure if iron would do that.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

That's kinda what I've been thinking too. Something in my water that the plants are having major difficulty adapting to and dealing with.

It may be something that is bonding itself somehow to the needed nutrients that are there, making it appear as a deficiency from not dosing enough.

Your thoughts?


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

That said, I tried running for about a month feeding my drip feed system with 50/50 tap water/ro water and that didn't seem to make a bit of difference.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I think Newt might have been on the right track about the water company. I know here in Colorado the water is great except periodically when they start putting ammonia in it. I know people who get caught unexpectedly by that. 

I see Duckweed can have a problem with ammonia also but I have no idea if that is your problem.


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## RedDelPaPa (May 18, 2005)

I would think ammonia would have a negative effect on my fish as well. But my water company are a bunch of idiots. I don't know if they employ anyone competent. I can't get a hold of anyone who knows anything other than to tell me to go to their website and search the latest water quality report. Which doesn't show a damn thing.


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