# Troubles during the second month



## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

Back at the beginning of February I set up a 40 gallon breeder tank.

I put 1.5 inches of organic potting soil (Organic Moo Doo Potting Soil) with 1.5 inches of gravel on top in my 40 gallon breeder tank.

I have 20 plus plants and 20 fish.

60 watts of T-8 GE cool white and Zoomed Flora Sun 5000k bulbs

I have a timer on the lights 6am-11am then 3pm-8pm.

Everything seems fine, but my ph is 6.5-7 and my gH is 4/5. I raised the gH up to 8. The ph and gH have held solid the whole time.

Over the period just about all of my plants have disintegrated, and fish have slowly been passing away. (1 otto cat, 1 panda catfish, 2 zebra danios)

My amazon swords' leaves turned clear and rotted, I thought I saw shoots coming through and was cheering, but no luck. They seemed to have died too. My Vallisneria spiralis (one seems to be living fine) the other 5 have all been up rooted repeatedly by my Plecostomus, are stunted, and seem to not be doing well. I believe I had some sort of water sprite that couldn't get rooted before it would get tossed about too...Now, it too is just weak and dead for the most part.



I am wondering with the Plecostomus in the tank, were the plants just doomed? He seems to trample them, uproot them by flipping about, I replant the next day...Is this a cycle that is just killing the plants? 

My java fern which has not been effected by the Pleco, is turning yellow with brown spots, and it too is dying. 

One thing that has really been bothering me is the tannins in the water. It looks like a tank of iced tea, not water. I have taken out a piece of wood and I am still getting the coloration.

Pleco? Too much light? Could the tannins be causing light problems for the plants?

All of the above? 

Any ideas on what my next step should be?

Thanks in advance!


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Organic Moo Doo is a new one for me. Did it contain any manure (or maybe sewer sludge derivitives - that'd lead to some differing metals)? I also wonder if your plants are "burning" at the bases where you're planting them. It may very well be a hydrogen sulfide issue with the 3 inch depth of total substrate, or perhaps (if there was manure as part of the soil layer) a mega ammonia spike. As far as changing your water parameters goes, that is stressful business. You might do well just to use a very wide variety of plants and see what's suited to your normal water source as-is. Then again, I have no idea what different water parameters mean to plants, so maybe nothing would do well with what you had? As far as the pleco, I had a similar problem when I first started, but that all settled down once the plants started growing better. He still knocks a stem up once in a while, but other than that he's not hurting anything.

Lots and lots of questions come to mind. First, I am really curious as to what was in the soil you bought (what type of organics, maybe there was a nutrient analysis...). Then I'd be curious to see if foul smelling gas comes up when you poke around in the substrate. Then go from there...


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## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

Here is a link to the Moo Doo website. http://www.moodoo.com/moo_mix.htm They say: Dehydrated Composted Cow Manure, Peat Moss, Pine Bark, and Perlite.

I also checked ammonia and had a ppm of .5 - 1.

(edit added: I forgot) Also if I poke the substrate bubbles do come up. I can't tell if they smell though. I will have my wife check it out for me.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

Moo Doo does not look/sound like a good choice (IMO)
With the increased tannins I'd do a large WC.
Do you run the standard gambit of tests? NO2, NO3, NH3/NH4
My soil gassed pretty good starting out but only lost minor plants. Fish load was kept low starting out until the soil settled.


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## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

I have test ph, gH, and ammonia. I wasn't sure that any other was critical. I figured if the tank started cycling in wild swings I would know by the health? If I should be testing with a natural tank, I will do it. I didn't realize it was a necessity.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

I tested a lot but only through the cycle on ammonia and nitrite. Both really hurt the fish above .5ppm.
I monitor GH, KH, NO3, TDS and calcium because I'm now over three months between water changes.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

As Mudboots pointed out your substrate is pretty deep. Ms. D posted into my string and helped a great deal starting out. On new tanks WC can be weekly until things settle in.


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## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

I am wondering why Moo Doo does not look like a good choice. It said organic potting soil. 

Should I rip it out and start over now that other organic potting soils aren't buried under the snow?


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

You posted this list; Dehydrated Composted Cow Manure, Peat Moss, Pine Bark, and Perlite.

Manure in the aquarium is no longer dehydrated  Lot of NO3 and PO4 (phosphate) will leach out of it as it settles in with 1 1/2" of very rich material there. (IMO) no, I would not tear it out but I would not add any more fish until things settle down chemically. Keep lots of plants in it and wait out the transition if your willing. Once the level of nutrients drops it should be a very rich base.
That said I'm no expert just lucky so far on my tanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Dakthorn said:


> Here is a link to the Moo Doo website. http://www.moodoo.com/moo_mix.htm They say: Dehydrated Composted Cow Manure, Peat Moss, Pine Bark, and Perlite.
> 
> I also checked ammonia and had a ppm of .5 - 1


Moo Doo? I checked the website and I don't see anything about its NPK (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium) content. That can make a huge difference. For NPTs you want a low NPK, one that's especially low in nitrogen.

I recommend Miracle Gro Organic Choice "Potting Mix". It has a low NPK (0.01, 0.05, 0.05). It has worked well for me and several other hobbyists.

The problems you describe could be due to a substrate meltdown-- severely anaerobic conditions, hydrogen sulfide gases, etc.

Hard to diagnose without more information. A picture would certainly help. In the meantime, I would change water, poke the substrate (to release toxic gases and introduce oxygen), and then hope for the best.


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## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

I just did a 1/3 water change and poked out quite a few bubbles.

I will head to the local store to get some more plants too!

Thanks for the help. I will try to add pictures this weekend.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

For what it's worth, I am (by trade as a mud-ologist) fortunate enough to see some good 'ol "moo doo" in the raw, so to speak. When it's had water standing on it for a while the water sitting in the "puddles" turns dark, ranging from a dark coffee color to something similar to burned motor oil. This may have something to do with your water discoloration in addition to the tannins.

Just as a heads up, you may be in for a pretty significant wait for all of that to cycle out of the system. Manure is pretty rich and makes for great tomato plants, but generally will cause headaches in the aquarium. I tried some organic stuff mixed with soil from the yard in a 20 in my first ever planted tank and lost pretty much everything that was in there (lots of hydrogen sulfide gas in a substrate with an average depth of 3.5 inches or so). That tank was completely flushed out (pardon the pun) and is now an emmersed set up (wetland-n-a-box). The other tanks I set up, including the emmersed set up, were with the Miracle Grow Organic Choice that dwalstad suggested and I've not had problems except those in the 125 that I caused myself. Not that I'm telling you that starting over from scratch is worthwhile, just offering a similar experience that was pretty unpleasant.

Many of us certainly can relate to the frustration. Thanks for sharing and keeping us posted.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I am not familiar with the soil you use but the word manure scares me off. I always thought manure is something that should not be an an aquarium. I am wondering what's the ammonia level in your tank. Cow manure generally can produce gas. It's used for generating gas for cooking in India (I watched that on TV many years ago). I bet the natural gas can kill your fishes as well. Cow manure is also used to keep scorpions or some kind of poisonous insects away in India. There must be a reason, it can keep the insects away. If it can keep the insects away, I am sure that it may be harmful to the fishes too. Scientifically, I have no idea though. Maybe someone here has better info.


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## wkndracer (Mar 23, 2008)

_*Dehydrated Composted Cow Manure *_is what the overdrive kicker is along with total depth on the setup but the depth isn't that far over what I setup.
No way of knowing how much conversion took place during the 'composting' when manufactured.
Looking at my tank and thinking of removing the substrate to start over I really can't see doing it without throwing out the capping material too.

Grateful I used Miracle Grow Organic Choice. Probably why things settled in so quickly.

Using duckweed, water sprite and other fast growers with light blasting the tank I'd be curious how long it would take to strip the water column of leaching excess from the substrate. I would be willing to bet you'd harvest plants twice a week based on Mudboots post.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

I also think the manure is causing these problems. Perhaps not all the problems, but is a big contributer. 

Are you removing the perlite as it floats? It never will stay down. 

Manure tea is a good fertilizer for outdoor plants. Sounds like this is what you are making in your tank. Simple recipe for manure tea: Fill bucket half to 2/3 with manure (horse, cow, rabbit, chicken..). Fill with water. When the water looks like strong tea, drain off the water and use the water to fertilize the flowers and vegetables. This is so strong a fertilizer you will imediately follow with watering the plants to dilute the manure tea. Refill the bucket over and over again until the water no longer turns color. 

Sound familiar?

I would redo this tank, get rid of that substrate. Too much organic matter, not enough mineral fraction. 
Avoid wood products (pine, fir... shavings.., composted or not. Usually these are not well composted in potting soils)
Avoid manures except for a small amount of worm castings. 
Avoid peat moss. A trace is OK, like a light dusting at the bottom of the tank. 
Avoid perlite. It always floats. 

Look for a soil that has some each sand silt and clay, and a little bit of organic matter. 
Sand is good aeration. (up to 80% sand is good)
Silt is a little finer, and will give the roots a better hold in the substrate. (no more than about 15% silt)
Clay has a very high cationic exchange capacity and will hold fertilizers very well. However, little bit goes a long way. (No more than about 5% clay)
By Sand, Silt and Clay, I am talking about actual soil particle sizes, classifications as used by farmers and others in determining their soil types. 
I am not talking about a bag of Play sand or pool filter sand that you might buy in a store. 
The organic matter will just be a small part of the total. It could be peat moss, worm castings or very well composted garden clippings or kitchen waste. By 'very well composted' I mean so fine you cannot tell the original material, it will look and smell like good soil. Dark, rich... Just a small amount, though.


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## lake_tuna (Mar 18, 2010)

dwalstad said:


> I recommend Miracle Gro Organic Choice "Potting Mix". It has a low NPK (0.01, 0.05, 0.05). It has worked well for me and several other hobbyists.


This is a bit off-topic, but has anyone used Scotts Premium Potting Soil? That's what I'm using, and it has a high nitrogen content (0.07%). NPK is .07-.01-.03. I set up the tank today, and I noticed spider web like long threads forming in the water between plant leaves. I'm waiting for things to settle until tomorrow before doing a water test and put a fish in there (2.5g). A lot of bubbles are present, too.

http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?proId=prod70366&itemId=cat50042&tabs=usage

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that I put a 5000K 14w CFL over the 2.5g. It was the smallest white light bulb I could find.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I agree with Diana K. If I were you, I will re-setup the tank too by picking other soil without manure. I highly recommend Top Soil if you can get hold of it. It's pretty common and cheap at nursery I believe.


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## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

When I went to the local store, the Miracle Grow was outside on a skid under snow. 

I guess I will mentally prepare myself for April vacation and give it another go.

I just went to get a photo and it is too large to upload. My software license has expired so I can't re-size it either.


I will continue to burp the soil and water change as needed until then.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Try google for IrfanView for the free photo editing software. You can easily resize the photo using this freeware.


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## Dakthorn (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, Here are the photos of the tank. Pretty sad. I have been poking the substrate and was wondering how often and when should I be doing this? Should I make sure to do it after a light cycle or dark cycle or it doesn't matter?

Ah well, thanks for the help though.

Boy, I was so excited with the initial set up too.


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