# Does the cost of this setup seem right?



## tokyo (Apr 23, 2010)

I was asked to set up an in-wall planted tank and after pricing everything its a little more expensive than I had thought. I usually just buy what I can each paycheck until I eventually have all my equipment, so maybe it's just that I've never seen the entire price tag for a setup at once.

Anyways, here's a rough draft of the pricing. Please let me know how accurate you think it is or where I could cut out some of the cost.

120g glass aquarium: $364(based off of glasscages. I still need to get a price from my LFS)
Fluval FX5(They want discus so I doubled my initial filtration): $228
Heating: I have an extra 300w I can give them
8 bulb T5 fixture(or two 4 bulb fixtures) from HD: around $160, still need to go double check pricing
4 6500k T5 bulbs: $60
4 10000k T5 bulbs: $70
10lb CO2 tank: around $100+, need to shop around some suppliers near me
CO2 Regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, permaseal, tubing: $146
Bubble counter: around $5.00
Diffuser: Either DIY reactor or inject into canister
7x ADA AquaSoil Amazonia 9L bags: $195.93 + shipping
Bulk fertilizers: Around $20-$30

Total: Approx. $1,363
+plants & fish

This seems high to me. I was expecting it to be closer to $800


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

If you are buying a brand new tank (cause you must have specific dimensions maybe?) you will pay a much higher price. Buying used is much cheaper but besides dimensions you have to deal with 1. People 2. Possible leak they don't tell you about 3. Transportation 4. Scratches. Buying used would make a 120 galon tank be about $150-200, at least here in Dallas, Texas.

Price of AquaSoil you can't lower. But do you need 7 bags? Discus do best in an open space layout. You will need AquaSoil only for the back of the tank where the plants are. Not 7 bags. Everything else can be $10 per 50 lb of pool filter sand or something of that sort. Promise, a layout like this one will blow anyone away - ADG, the company that created this tank, knows what they are doing both aesthetically and business-wise:









CO2 setup - it can easily be $160-$170 if you buy the regulator from a beer brewing place like beveragefactory.com. But you need to find and attach the needle valve yourself. Bubble counter - no need for it, spare the money.

Do not inject the CO2 in the canister. You will be royally supressing the most important part of the system - the biofiltration. If you have to have an external reactor you can't really save money unless you make one yourself based on previous experience making it and using it. Trust me - you do not want to have a piece of equipment that plays tricks on you attached to a tank that is not at your house. You will spend too much time and effort straightening things up.

Lights - $290 for a Home Depot fixture including bulbs? Better get two T5HO, 80W each, Giesemann Midday 6000K bulbs - it will cost you only $150 for everything (separate switch for each bulb too!) and you will have the best bulbs on the market. But you need to figure out the housing for these bulbs.

Fluval FXwhatever - $230 is the normal price for this kind of glorified bucket.

Overall I estimate a number closer to $900-$1000. That's if you make the light housing and find a 120 gal tank for $200. So you see - your $1300 estimate makes sense.

It all boils down to the same thing - we see our hobby as cheap. If you make sure the folk you are setting up the tank for understand that they are getting something very special the "high" price tag may not matter. Show them some pictures of planted tanks, discus especially. Find pictures that show how the tank looks in the house, not just shots of the aquascape.

--Nikolay


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## tokyo (Apr 23, 2010)

niko said:


> If you are buying a brand new tank (cause you must have specific dimensions maybe?) you will pay a much higher price. Buying used is much cheaper but besides dimensions you have to deal with 1. People 2. Possible leak they don't tell you about 3. Transportation 4. Scratches. Buying used would make a 120 galon tank be about $150-200, at least here in Dallas, Texas.
> 
> Price of AquaSoil you can't lower. But do you need 7 bags? Discus do best in an open space layout. You will need AquaSoil only for the back of the tank where the plants are. Not 7 bags. Everything else can be $10 per 50 lb of pool filter sand or something of that sort. Promise, a layout like this one will blow anyone away - ADG, the company that created this tank, knows what they are doing both aesthetically and business-wise:
> 
> ...


I always buy my tanks used and have never payed more than $1.5/gallon, but there are not a whole lot of large tanks being sold around here, and when I do see them they are asking too much. I am keeping my eyes open, but the people I'm setting the tank up for want to get this started.

The plan is to do a similar setup similar to the one you posted, but with an HC foreground. Although I think I read that HC grows better in shallow substrate, or at least doesn't require a deep one. Thanks for pointing that out. I could probably cut my ADA AS in half.

Thanks, I will check out beveragefactory. I would like to have a solenoid if possible though. Both to save on CO2 and to prevent an increase of CO2 at night which I have heard is not good for discus. It looks like I can get a solenoid for around $50 though, so thats still cheaper.

Two bulbs for a 120g hightech/high light tank?? Those must be some pretty incredible bulbs. I'm not doubting, it just seems contradictory to everything I've read. Please explain if you have time.

What would you recommend for filtration if not the FX5? I considered doing a sump, which is what I have always used on my larger tanks, but there isn't any room for it in this setup.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

The Giesemann Midday T5HO bulbs are indeed incredible. Most things that are accepted and discussed in this hobby amount to pretty useless notions. WPG is one of them. I've described the Giesemann bulbs numerous times here. Bottom line is - with an individual reflector on each bulb you can use 1/2 the wattage and get not only the same growth, but better water penetration and better greens AND reds on the plants and fish. 

Downside - the individual reflector makes a pretty narrow beam of light. On a tank that is 24" front to back you need to use at least 3 bulbs to have it evenly lit. 2 bulbs are good for 18" width.

I would not use HC. No way. This thing will either throw tantrums and get ugly in the matter of 2-3 days or grow so fast that within a month you need to remove the entire beautiful green mat and start all over again. You do not want to labor over this tank, remember that. HC requires ungodly amounts of light and I guess that's what makes people think it likes shallow water. What it really likes is to be out of the water. It's the best example of what most of our plants love to do - to get out of the darn water. Force it to grow under and you got to understand there is a price to pay for that perversion of nature.

Keep in mind something else - the scale of everything. For once I agree with Amano - he says that in big discus tanks small leafed plants do not work. It's because the scale of fish and plants does not match. Look at the ADG tank again - now you know another reason they chose these big leafed swords in the back.

There is a way to reduce the amount of AquaSoil you need to a bare minimum. IF you find a way to hide the bottom part of your plants with rocks or wood you can actually plant them in clay pots. So only the pots need AquaSoil and everything else is cheap inert gravel. That idea is not totally off the wall. As long as you can hide the pots well.

For the filter - I guess this Fluval is the best choice. Only because you can't find a larger affordable canister on the market. It would be best if you used 2 of these FX "small buckets with a pump", but that's more money. And if you haven't read the 2 big threads about filtration please do so. Basically you must set everything up to the point where the flow is strong and remains constant. Meaning your filter must not clog. Meaning all sponges and pads don't need to be there. With only 1 canister you may need to use mechanical filtration. In that case make damn sure that every week the pads/sponges get rinsed or replaced. Consistent flow is king.

With the beveragefactory regulators you are going to need to buy + ship a needle valve. And buy + ship a solenoid. Once they arrive you will probably be frustrated about finding fittings to assemble everything together. Cheapest way to do it - ask for a used regulator/solenoid/needle valve assembly here on APC. I would strongly suggest using a solenoid to turn off the CO2 at night. It has a profound impact on the efectiveness of the filtration. You want to see this tank always crystal clear, not to make it crystal clear yourself. Biofiltration is the best way.

--Nikolay


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## tokyo (Apr 23, 2010)

I was originally going to go with glosso, which is what Amano had used in his turquoise discus tank. I then read that HC is slower growing so I decided it would be a better choice. Is this the wrong thinly? Should I stick with glosso? Is there a better choice for a carpeting plant?


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## emersed (Jun 22, 2011)

You also have to consider the plants in a setup as large as yours. It shouldn't be included, but with all the plants, rocks, driftwood you are going to purchase, it will most likely cost as much as 4 light bulbs, or even more.


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## TAB (Feb 7, 2009)

as some one that did that for a living. your price is WAY CHEAP.

My $.02 on discus tanks. Run wet/drys and have a quick method of water changes.( drain)

I had a post not too long ago of a cost break down of what a pro would charge to set up a tank, and how it can be a hard sell. let me see if I can find it.

found it...



TAB said:


> Having worked in the field, clients want a tank that looks great 100% of the time and cheap.
> 
> You have to remember you have to bill out atleast 3x what you pay your employees to make any money. Thats not inculding things like fuel, the truck/van, tools, consumables... It all adds up fast.
> 
> ...


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## OVT (Aug 26, 2010)

IMHO, way *under*-priced. First off, I am assuming you are not cutting, re-framing, plumbing, and wiring the wall yourself. That part can be a big undertaking and you will have to work closely with whoever will do it. Depending on what is on the other side of the wall, the wall type, and the 'look' the client wants will drive the choices for some of your equipment. Can you get a way with rimmed tank or do you have to go rimless? How do you plumb? can you go with the easy over-the rim intake/outflow or do you have to drill the tank? The price difference will be huge depending on the answers. The amount of time you will spend on setting up an in-wall tank will be at least x 3 of what you would spend on setting up a 'table-top' tank. This project would require some careful planning and coordination, if you have not done in-wall tanks before, I just might walk away from the project.

Secondly, I would not use FX5. Discus need a lot of circulation and water changes, but they do not handle current very gracefully. I'd recommend going with at least 2 filters with gentle water flow. Flow rate aside, have some redundancy built in does not hurt either. The canister filters will get the job done, but a custom made multi-stage sump-type filtration might be a better solution. That's a lot more $$ for parts and labor.

Then, are you sure your client will like looking at your 12" 300W heater? Maybe Hydor in-line per filter is the way to go (~$40 each).

The, CO2 set-up (I just finished 4 of them): used 2-stage regulator $50, Ideal Valve $60, solenoid $40, #10 empty $100, +$20 to fill it up (having a spare cylinder is not a bad idea), timer for CO2 and lights $35, plumbing parts $20. Diffuser/reactor is another story, from $10 and way up. It all adds up.

Driftwood/rocks/etc: $200++. Starter plants to get it going $150+ even before you put the "right" plants in.

AquaSoil/PowerSand: count on 50%+ water changes at least every other day for 2 weeks (Do you want to do it one 5gl bucket at a time? )

I bet your customer will not want 5 Discuses in 120G, but 17. That's easily $1,500++. And they would want that fish in a $250 tank?

This project is a classic quality vs money vs time triangle. Doing this for a customer means that your time is customer's money. Quality is presumably fixed. And after all is said and done, you might even remain on speaking terms with your customer.

Good luck and have fun


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## tokyo (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks for the responses. Let me just say that this was a rough estimate, and did not include fish, plants, hardscape, or labor. I am also doing this as a favor, so I am not charging for my time, although the carpenter will certainly be charging for his.



OVT said:


> Secondly, I would not use FX5. Discus need a lot of circulation and water changes, but they do not handle current very gracefully. I'd recommend going with at least 2 filters with gentle water flow. Flow rate aside, have some redundancy built in does not hurt either. The canister filters will get the job done, but a custom made multi-stage sump-type filtration might be a better solution. That's a lot more $$ for parts and labor.


A sump was my first choice, but there is no room for one. I have been considering going with two Fluval 405s instead of the FX5 though. The FX5 was the cheaper choice, but two 405s will certainly do a better job.



OVT said:


> Then, are you sure your client will like looking at your 12" 300W heater? Maybe Hydor in-line per filter is the way to go (~$40 each).


The heater is a 300W Hydor in-line heater.



OVT said:


> AquaSoil/PowerSand: count on 50%+ water changes at least every other day for 2 weeks (Do you want to do it one 5gl bucket at a time? )


The system will have a constant flow water change setup as well as an easy "quick-drain" option. So water changes should not be an issue. Theres no way I'm transporting 60+ gallons in 5 gallon buckets.



OVT said:


> I bet your customer will not want 5 Discuses in 120G, but 17. That's easily $1,500++. And they would want that fish in a $250 tank?


The plan is 8 discus bought at 4". 17 discus in a 4ft tank seems like overkill.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

To save money on your tank, if one is close by got to your nearest pet land discount store. No shipping cost. I think they'd deliver to you for an extra $20 bucks. Still, its a cheap tank. I'd rather spend $$$ knowing something was carefully made, especially with 2k worth of fish swimming around inside of it.

Home depot is the best location for standard fixtures. I'm glad people are finally noticing that. Dual t5 fixtures for $35.00 is a steal. Remember to get some covers for them, humidity sucks with wiring.

Ebay has some 10 pound co2 sellers. Price should be around 65-75 for a 10 pounder. Distributors will sell one to you filled for less then $100.

Instead of aquasoil, why not try fluval stratum? 17 pound bags are around $33.00 dollars or less shipped.

For plants, swords will hold up to the higher temperature in discus tanks. The largest sword plants available commercially are about 14-18 inches. Prices range from $10.00-$14.00 per x-lrg plant, could be cheaper if you buy them in bulk.

To save money and plant more, I suggest getting the medium and large size plants which range in prices from $7.00-$10.00 depending on the species. You'll be able to plant out more. Plants would eventually grow into the tank within 2-3 months.

Instead of keeping the temperatures in the 90's for faster growth, you can drop down to the mid 80's and offer a wider range of plants. Fish will be fine, they just won't grow as fast.

-Gordon


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## sierramists1 (Jun 22, 2011)

I think that that cost seems right, especially if you're getting a lot of the stuff new. Although it takes a lot longer to collect everything you need, buying used saves a lot of money. However, I could be saying that "the price is right" because I keep saltwater fish, where the rule of thumb is a MINIMUM of $50 per gallon, so at that size it would be about $6000.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

You really need to get a Solenoid for the co2. I recommend a Burkert 6011. They cost ~$20 more then a Clippard but they run cooler and are 100x's more reliable.

Here is a thread I made over at TPT when I was contemplating trying to fix my Clippard but with two crapping out on me within 6 months of being purchased I was done with Clippard.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...ng-clippard-solenoid-burkert-replacement.html


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