# Proyect: Two Walstad Tanks



## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Hey guys,

For almost a year I've been watching videos and reading the forums about Walstad method and I am interested in making my own tanks. It all started with someone who gave my daughter some fish and as an animal lover I hate the culture of treating pets as objects. So out of the different methods Walstad is the one I've liked the most.

I am interested in having two tanks, one for a betta and the other for guppies and a few other fish. Convinced the wife to give me part of the living room for two tanks that I was gonna have made but found 2 15gl (approx.) with curved front which in my opinion look great! Measurements are 50x34x34CM, 5MM, 57L/15G (brand is Dophin). I'd put them both on top a metal furniture that it's been made by a friend. Attached is an example of how it looks:















So! Questions and feedback:
- Light-wise, I thought about a NICREW light. Either ClassicLed plus (which supposedly help plants cuz of the red light) or the Nicrew G2 (without red lights)
- Should I start both at the same time? Or can i focus on one then when stable use part of it water to help setup the 2nd one?
- Is adding an ancistrus or cory a good idea?
- About water agitation...do I need it? I've seen a few tanks with it, others without it...I could add a filter if needed.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

That Classic LED light fixture looks good for that size tank. It looks like it will give you around 50 PAR at the substrate, which is as much light as you should use when you aren't going to use CO2. If it was me doing that I would start both tanks at once, unless the cost of the plants was too high. I would also use 3 or more small Corys, just because they are so entertaining.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

hoppycalif said:


> That Classic LED light fixture looks good for that size tank. It looks like it will give you around 50 PAR at the substrate, which is as much light as you should use when you aren't going to use CO2. If it was me doing that I would start both tanks at once, unless the cost of the plants was too high. I would also use 3 or more small Corys, just because they are so entertaining.


Thank you! Do you know which carpet plant would be good in this case?

Also, now that I think about it, the cost of plants will be too high if I start both...


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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

Since this is your first experience with these kind of tanks, I'd suggest you start with one and focus on that one. I am sure there will be many things you will like to do differently after 6 months of your first tank. Also, you will already know of some plants that do well in your setup, and probably have some excess ones for your new tank.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Carpet plants generally need lots of light to do well, probably more than you will have. With lower light they tend to grow taller, reaching up to the light, if they grow at all. One that has grown well for me, with low light is Marsilea hirsuta. I liked it, but it can become nuisance by spreading all over the tank.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

That's gonna be a tough one. I don't think there's anyone with that plant in my country. The guy who had it is sold out.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

A lot of people have success with dwarf sag carpets too. I think there was a recent(ish) thread on carpet plants that work in NPTs, you may want to check that out for suggestions.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Dwarf Sagittaria does grow very well in NPT's and it has big root systems which lets it get nutrients from the substrate. But, when I used it it grew too high, destroying the "carpet" effect. It grew so well it became a nuisance. I don't know if you can "mow" dwarf sag carpets without harming them.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Oh yeah, dwarf sag will dominate, choking out other plants if you don't do regular trimming.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

I was thinking the following plants:

- Spirodela Polyrhiza o Giant Duckweed (calles rat's ear in my country)
- Hornwort (cat's tail)
- Guppy grass 
- Hairgrass, lilaeopsis brasiliensis, marsilea or montecarlo
- Ludwigia (red one?)
- dwarf anubia

Thought about having these but not sure
- Java Fern
- Java Moss

I know vallisneria and amazonian swords are great but I really don't like how they look.


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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

Try to get in some plants with stronger and deeper roots like Sagittaria, Echinodorus, Cryptocorine or Vallisneria.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

A mix of as many plant species as you can afford is my advice. Not all of them will work out.


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

For a semi-carpet, we found dwarf (or pygmy) chain sword (Helanthium tenellum or formerly Echinodorus tenellus) to be very nice. It took a while to start spreading for us (but then our tank had a bit of a rough start). 

But I reckon the advice to buy lots of species and as many plants as you can is good. Fill the tank up with plants. Our little 7.5g (28l) cube has 12 or 13 species in it. So far (7 months) we haven't "lost" any -- the Vallisneria and Christmas moss both seemed like they had failed, but out of nowhere they came back. Several species were put in just as "fast growers" to get the tank established as we didn't care for their looks, but now we've grown to like them and can't imagine the tank without them, so they stay. (The one exception is the Anacharis elodea, which we are cutting back in stages in hopes that we can eventually remove it entirely.)


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Daz said:


> Try to get in some plants with stronger and deeper roots like Sagittaria, Echinodorus, Cryptocorine or Vallisneria.


I can get the cryptocorine. Not sure about the rest. I really did not want the vallisneria because of looks. I know is kind of superficial but after convincing my wife to give me part of a wall on our living room, I wanna make sure she likes the tanks haha.



dwalstad said:


> A mix of as many plant species as you can afford is my advice. Not all of them will work out.


Thank you! I think I read on your book that one of your tanks had over 20 or 30 different types of plants. Wish I could get that many!



shudaizi said:


> For a semi-carpet, we found dwarf (or pygmy) chain sword (Helanthium tenellum or formerly Echinodorus tenellus) to be very nice.


That one is huge! I was looking for a smaller carpet plant BUT I think this one would work in the tank with guppies and the rest of the fish. For the betta tank I wanted something different.


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

abepaniagua said:


> That one is huge! I was looking for a smaller carpet plant BUT I think this one would work in the tank with guppies and the rest of the fish. For the betta tank I wanted something different.


The dwarf / pygmy chain sword is not "huge" at all. 2-3cm at most in our tank. Very nice.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

shudaizi said:


> The dwarf / pygmy chain sword is not "huge" at all. 2-3cm at most in our tank. Very nice.


Sorry I must have seen the wrong picture. That's a nice "grass" look right?

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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

abepaniagua said:


> Sorry I must have seen the wrong picture. That's a nice "grass" look right?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Yes, it grows in rosettes (tufts) so it's not entirely a "blanket" appearance, but the tufts do look like grass. It's quite lovely in my opinion. I'll try to snap a pic and post it.


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

Here's a close up.

The small brown smudges are TINY (1-2mm) snails on the front glass.

EDIT: and there's a frond of Christmas moss on the right of the pic too. That should give a sense of scale, as this is a single strand of moss.



EDIT 2: Decided to add a pic of the whole tank (from front) so you can see just how small these plants are. This is a 28L cube, so not big at all.


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

shudaizi said:


> Here's a close up.


Wow! How did you get it to grow so low down? Mine grows at least 2-3" high. I still definitely like it, but it's more of a small forest than a carpet in my case...


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Thanks for sharing guys! Furniture to set up tanks is ready. 








Also, I was able to find a supplier of plants and I'll be planting a good variety of them.

My last thing is the soil/dirt to use. Apparently in my country they only sell "soil" and "hummus". You can find different types of soil but none specify what it is or has. There's only one brand that says "soil from the woods". Should I go with that? Or with hummus?


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

jatcar95 said:


> Wow! How did you get it to grow so low down? Mine grows at least 2-3" high. I still definitely like it, but it's more of a small forest than a carpet in my case...


I don't think I did anything special. It was a tissue culture from Aquatic Arts iirc. It did take a long time to acclimate and start spreading. (The tissue culture was a very generous portion but the first set up in this tank was a toxic bust and when I tore it down and redid it, I only had a few leftovers that had been floating and growing slowly in a bucket of water in the backyard for much of the summer.)


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

abepaniagua said:


> My last thing is the soil/dirt to use. Apparently in my country they only sell "soil" and "hummus". You can find different types of soil but none specify what it is or has. There's only one brand that says "soil from the woods". Should I go with that? Or with hummus?


I would ask the store keeper (or investigate on-line) which one is better for growing ordinary houseplants. My instinct is to go with "soil." "Humus" may be for growing orchids or Bonsai.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> I would ask the store keeper (or investigate on-line) which one is better for growing ordinary houseplants. My instinct is to go with "soil." "Humus" may be for growing orchids or Bonsai.


Thank you for this. I was about to buy something online but if I can work it out locally, better.

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Looking good.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

So i got a bunch of plants! 

Lobelia, liliopsis, hair grass mini, Montecarlo, another one that's from the Montecarlo family but no idea which one is it, pinnatifida (not sure if name in english), java moss, reineki mini, repens, luwidgia mini s.red, cryptocorine brown and green, rotala rotundifolia, and the guy gave me what he thought was duckweed but I'm sure it is salvinia natans.

How can I quarantine these plants? Or at least 3 of them that were planted on a tank which may have planaria.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sounds like quite a haul and that you will have fun planting. 

I would just gently rinse the plants. 

You don't need to quarantine them. Planaria won't grow if conditions aren't right for their growth. Dirty, stopped up filter media and overfeeding cause planaria.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Sounds like quite a haul and that you will have fun planting.
> 
> I would just gently rinse the plants.
> 
> You don't need to quarantine them. Planaria won't grow if conditions aren't right for their growth. Dirty, stopped up filter media and overfeeding cause planaria.


Thank you!

So I got 2 types of potting soil. One is called "soil from the forest" and the other is the typical potting soil around here. I was told the latter has some manure either from chicken or beef, not much but some. I have been sifting it to remove large chunks.

I have not been able to find small gravel. But i was able to find some sort of substrate that might be good enough cover the soil. It's called "Fondo Vivo" from Prodac. According to them:

"It consists of clay and natural substances containing trace elements and added ferrous mineral, in the form of sulphate."

They recommend using it as soil then cover it with gravel...I was hoping to use it as gravel. Size ranges from 2-5mm.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

abepaniagua said:


> I was thinking the following plants:
> 
> - Spirodela Polyrhiza o Giant Duckweed (calles rat's ear in my country)
> - Hornwort (cat's tail)
> ...


Anubias are amazing. I have two (barteri) and in the six years since I purchased them they've barely grown at all. And, I can count the number of leaves that have turned yellow on less than the fingers of one hand.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

abepaniagua said:


> Thank you!
> 
> So I got 2 types of potting soil. One is called "soil from the forest" and the other is the typical potting soil around here. I was told the latter has some manure either from chicken or beef, not much but some. I have been sifting it to remove large chunks.
> 
> ...


Regarding your gravel cap, I'd stay away from anything that contains any elements that would be in addition to whatever is in your soil. I've read in other posts that some clay may contain aluminum which can be toxic to your livestock. Also, if you're going to be keeping any shrimp you'll need something smaller for them to be able to move around as they forage for food. I think 1-3mm is the recommended size. Anything larger is probably too big for shrimp to move.
This is what I used for my cap and it's available on Amazon, although I don't know where you're located so it may not be available to you:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002APMU6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Thanks. I can't seem to find gravel on that size range (1-3mm). It's driving me nuts cuz I got my plants already in a bag. I will be putting the soil today and planting them as a dry start until I get the cap.


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

abepaniagua said:


> Thanks. I can't seem to find gravel on that size range (1-3mm). It's driving me nuts cuz I got my plants already in a bag. I will be putting the soil today and planting them as a dry start until I get the cap.


Can you get pool filter sand?


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

maico996 said:


> Can you get pool filter sand?


I can but i didn't want to use it since it is too fine, no?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I would just use a thin layer of sand, 1 cm or 1/2 inch. Make sure that the soil is thoroughly soaked before planting.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> I would just use a thin layer of sand, 1 cm or 1/2 inch. Make sure that the soil is thoroughly soaked before planting.


Does the sand still allows carpet plants to spread around?

I want to try getting gravel but if I can't, I'll get the sand. I read there are some with 0.80mm grain size.

Put the plants on the soil for a semi-dry start.


















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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

See if you can find someplace that sells sand blasting media. They often will have quartz sand. You want the largest or coarsest size. In the USA this would be called 0 or 00. It is the correct size for use as a cap.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

How about sand from the beach? 

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Beach sand is fine, but just rinse it well.

The carpet plants would probably do better in the sand than gravel.

When in doubt, experiment!


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Beach sand is fine, but just rinse it well.
> 
> The carpet plants would probably do better in the sand than gravel.
> 
> When in doubt, experiment!


I was given a gravel that it's around 1-4mm! So I'll try 1 tank with gravel, 1 with sand.

Starting with the gravel one today. Dirt is around 1". I was ready, gravel should be around 2.5cm? 









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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Apparently the gravel wasn't as as small as I thought. Dirt seems to be seeping through a bit. I'm so pissed. I had a hard time preparing the plants, many died on the dry start (my mistake) and now this...

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Here's the tank. Anubias died on the dry start, and cryptocorines too (I think). I don't know how to plant monte carlo so, sorry for the butchering. The other one seems to be pearlweed (??).

I will add floating plants tomorrow after I do a water change. Or should I wait a bit longer?










































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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Plants in your pictures look fine. I don't see plants with mushy, decomposing roots floating to the surface. 

I would just relax and let nature take its course. Give the plants time to establish themselves before you draw hasty conclusions.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Tank seems ok. Plants have some bubbles from time to time. I've been doing light 7am-12pm on, then off 12-2pm, then on 2-7pm. Blue light at night. I see some white fuzzy thing around some plants? Is that white algae?
















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## ronnie (Feb 26, 2021)

I can’t speak to exactly what the white fuzzy is, but I’ve experienced it a few times just after starting a tank. 

For me, it has disappeared after a few days as the tank continues to establish.

One note, (someone may have to speak more on this for me) if the rocks are sitting directly on top of the soil and gravel, it can create problems with the soil below. Unless they are sitting on the glass and the dirt was added around them.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Rocks are sitting on top of gravel. Also ammonia is 0.5ppm or 1ppm, and surface has some gunk/biofilm. Tried removing part of it but still...added salvinia natans

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Large rocks sitting on top of gravel will smother soil bacteria and create severely anaerobic conditions.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

I'll have to remove them then. Thank you.

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

I'll share a few pictures to see your opinion on growth. I just took 1 small luwidgia red since it turned dark and started dying. Will be taking rocks out today. I sadly did not set them on glass level. Also, I see bubbles coming out from plants so that's a good sign I guess? And soil has a few small bubbles from what I can see...supposedly also normal.

Day 1









Day 4









Day 5









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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Ammonia - 0-0.5ppm
Nitrate - 20ppm
Nitrite - 0.5-1.0ppm
pH - 8.2-8.4
KH - 300ppm
GH - 150-300ppm

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Good effort but all that hard work is going in the wrong direction. I don't see any strong rooted "rosette" plants. No Val, Sag, Echinodorus or Aponogeton. 

I see a lot of stem plants. They need free CO2 and with a pH that high (over 8.2) they're not going to get much. I would remove the seashells. They're only increasing the water hardness, pH and KH. I know we've talked a lot about increasing water hardness, but this is "over the top" and that high pH is particularly unsuitable for stem plants. 

Now, Vallisneria, Echinodorus would thrive with the hard water, because they can use bicarbonates. Please read my book chapter (VI) on Carbon. Also, these strong rooted plants will dig into the substrate and create the truly robust growth that this tanks needs.

Wish I could be more encouraging.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you for your help. I had cryptocorines and anubias. Both died on the dry start. I will try to get some more tomorrow. 

I don't know why the pH is so high when filtered water isn't 8.2. It's closer to 7. Hardness yes, my water is very hard after the 3 step process. Any way I could lower it? 

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Both Cryptocorynes and Anubias are slow growers so that doesn't address the problem. 

Changing the water and removing the sea shells, which leach CaCO3 into the water, will help. 

I've given you recommendations. I think you need to read up on plant species, water hardness, etc and think about what you are doing. It doesn't sound like you've read my book.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Both Cryptocorynes and Anubias are slow growers so that doesn't address the problem.
> 
> Changing the water and removing the sea shells, which leach CaCO3 into the water, will help.
> 
> I've given you recommendations. I think you need to read up on plant species, water hardness, etc and think about what you are doing. It doesn't sound like you've read my book.


I've read your book, and reviewed the chapter you mentioned. The problem is the access to the plants I need. Both cryptocorines and Anubias died on the dried start, a mistake on my end. The water hardness and pH both became higher than expected when I set up the tank.

I've contacted a supplier that will be sending me vallisneria, anubias and cryptocorines today. According to your book Ceratophyllum demersum is a bicarbonate user but I couldn't find it in my country (I know this wouldn't fix the issue of having more root plants since it is a stem/floating plant). The one they said it was "Hornwort" it ended up being a different plant. I had to buy and import it from the US, and will receive it this week. I also bought and added salvinia natans as floating plants, and will be importing giant duckweed next week.

I have a dwarf lobelia cardinalis, which I believe is a root plant but I'm not sure if it's a bicarbonate user or not.

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

My apologies for coming down on you. Sounds like you're doing the best you can. 

I'm pleased to hear that you're getting some Val.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> My apologies for coming down on you. Sounds like you're doing the best you can.
> 
> I'm pleased to hear that you're getting some Val.


Honestly, I'm just happy you take time to reply to many of us rookies. I was excited to read your book, and I've been planning these 2 tanks for months. But getting everything took so long, and even when I was able to find what I needed, I still made mistakes. Finding local suppliers is hard. But after your last few posts I asked some more and found a man in a small town 1 hour away from here who supplies others.

Called him today, he is bringing me cryptocorine, vallisneria, dwarf anubias, Bacopa Caroliniana (only guy who has it here) and dwarf saggs. Hopefully this will help my tank. Took out stones and shells and did a 20% water change with RO water.

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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

abepaniagua said:


> Called him today, he is bringing me cryptocorine, vallisneria, dwarf anubias, Bacopa Caroliniana (only guy who has it here) and dwarf saggs.


Between vall and dwarf sagg (and eventually crypts once they get established), you should get some good rapid root growth. Both of those seem to grow very quickly, and are fun to watch spread around the tank. Glad you could find a supplier with these! I think I take for granted how easy it is for me to get supplies...


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

jatcar95 said:


> Between vall and dwarf sagg (and eventually crypts once they get established), you should get some good rapid root growth. Both of those seem to grow very quickly, and are fun to watch spread around the tank. Glad you could find a supplier with these! I think I take for granted how easy it is for me to get supplies...


Yeah. It's so much easier in the US. I lived in NC and would've probably gotten stuff a lot easier there. But here, we need to import many things. Thankfully, some locals love the hobby and started planting and selling their own. Getting fish is a bit easier but shrimps? Like 3-4 times a year they import. Only 1 guy is actually breeding TONS of them 2 hours away from the city.

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Got 3 vallisneria, 2 cryptocorines, like 4 small dwarf saggs, and 1 dwarf Anubia.

















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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

Pull the anubia roots out of the substrate and move it to a part of the tank you expect to be shaded by other plants, for example near the vallisneria. You may attach it to a small rock and leave the roots above the substrate, the plant will send some roots into the substrate eventually, but if you try to force it they tend to rot.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The anubias will do better if you glue or tie it to a rock.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Thank you guys. Will do.

Parameters are:
Ammonia - 0.5ppm
Nitrate - less than 20ppm
Nitrite - 0.5-1.0ppm
GH - 150-300ppm
KH - around 180ppm
pH seems to have lowered from 8.4 to 8.0 or so. I need to retest this with 2 other kits I have. 

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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Anubias are a fun addition to have, especially if you're limited in suppliers. It's a carpet plant; it's a canopy plant; it can float; it can be anchored to a rock. They have amazing roots yet don't really need a substrate in order to do well. I took apart one wall of a net breeder and used that as an anchor for two _anubia barteri_ . I can disguise it with gravel or rocks and just remove the whole lid whenever I clean the bottom of the bowl:


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

johnwesley0 said:


> Anubias are a fun addition to have, especially if you're limited in suppliers. It's a carpet plant; it's a canopy plant; it can float; it can be anchored to a rock. They have amazing roots yet don't really need a substrate in order to do well. I took apart one wall of a net breeder and used that as an anchor for two _anubia barteri_ . I can disguise it with gravel or rocks and just remove the whole lid whenever I clean the bottom of the bowl:


Thanks for sharing. I will be sticking it to something (still figuring out what) close to the substrate.

I've been sharing the progress with some locals and they have been so discouraging...all of them are like "you need CO2 for a pretty tank" or "what's the purpose of those plants if they aren't gonna be pretty? (Since there is no co2)". So thank you guys for helping me out.

I know the monte carlo isn't the best option for carpet. I honestly got them basically for free so I said, heck I'll try it out. No one had hair grass mini, so i had to improvise. I'm actually interested in using it once a family member brings me 2-3 cups of it.

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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

And you do need CO2 for a pretty tank, as well as a steady source of other nutrients, you just don't inject them from a bottle and instead rely on the biological decomposition of whatever you are feeding the tank to reach nutrient levels that are good enough for many plants. You won't get the amazing color variety, intensity and growth density that can be achieved with carefully controlled CO2 and fertilizers dosing, but you can still have a beautiful tank, and there are plenty of good examples in this forum.
That said, I think that this method is more about the fun than the looks (also a lot cheaper, particularly in countries where imported supplies are extremely expensive).


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

That's true. And for me is also the ecosystem...i like how the ecosystem can work by itself with little human interference. There's beauty in nature, and how it works...high tech for me feels artificial to a point. But that's my personal point of view. 

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Taking parameters today with the API Test kit.

pH - 8.0
Ammonia - 0.25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 5ppm
KH - 100-150ppm
GH - 150-200ppm
TDS - 162ppm

So it seems the tank is cycling correctly? There's constant biofilm on the top of the tank, so I've been removing it twice a day, and I've been topping it with RO water so hardness and pH has decreased. Sand particles float to the top then fall again...no idea why that is happening...

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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

abepaniagua said:


> Taking parameters today with the API Test kit.
> 
> pH - 8.0
> Ammonia - 0.25ppm
> ...


Yeah, I think you are well into the cycling process, judging from the amount of nitrate you have in the water column. Where do you think your beneficial bacteria is coming from, the soil substrate?


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yeah, I think you are well into the cycling process, judging from the amount of nitrate you have in the water column. Where do you think your beneficial bacteria is coming from, the soil substrate?


I really don't know. I mean, I took a bit of water from an established that but didn't think that would accelerate the cycling process too much... Maybe it's the soil?

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Parameters seem pretty stable. I am thinking about adding a few neocaridinas I have in another tank. There are 2 nerites and 2 applesnails I believe. Not sure when to add the female betta since the tank seems to be cycling faster than expected.

Plants, on the other hand, seem to be slowly growing...monte carlo, as expected, is either not growing or dying. I'll upload a few pictures. I've received the dwarf Hairgrass so I'll be planting that one either today or tomorrow.

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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

abepaniagua said:


> Parameters seem pretty stable. I am thinking about adding a few neocaridinas I have in another tank. There are 2 nerites and 2 applesnails I believe. Not sure when to add the female betta since the tank seems to be cycling faster than expected.
> 
> Plants, on the other hand, seem to be slowing growing...monte carlo, as expected, is either not growing or dying. I'll upload a few pictures. I've received the dwarf Hairgrass so I'll be planting that one either today or tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Yes, let's see some pictures. How's the val coming along?


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yes, let's see some pictures. How's the val coming along?


The vallisneria is growing! I didn't like how it looked but now I like it. Got used to it. Cryptocorines have a few yellow leaves. Guppy grass seems to be growing well. Monte carlo Is yellowish, yet I see new sprouts on a few places.

Water is becoming a bit yellowing/brownish. I don't know if it's the soil seeping in...but I read it was normal because of the tannins in the soil.































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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.5-1.0 ppm
Nitrates 5-10ppm
GH 150-200ppm
KH 180-300ppm

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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Yeah, it's too early to give up; every new tank is a battle. I think variety is your friend at this point. Do you clip your yellow leaves or leave them for the snails?


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

johnwesley0 said:


> Yeah, it's too early to give up; every new tank is a battle. I think variety is your friend at this point. Do you clip your yellow leaves or leave them for the snails?


Well, i didn't think about that. There are a few brown dead ones I was gonna remove but thought they'd be food for snails and/or nutrients for soil/water column. Yellow ones I was hoping they'd turn back green but doesn't work like that hahaha.

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I think tank looks very promising. What's nice is that you're now getting some plant growth. 

Crytocorynes are slow starters. I wouldn't worry about dead leaves on them. Sometimes in a new setup, they'll melt, but will come back if roots are healthy. 

Let's keep our fingers crossed!


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> I think tank looks very promising. What's nice is that you're now getting some plant growth.
> 
> Crytocorynes are slow starters. I wouldn't worry about dead leaves on them. Sometimes in a new setup, they'll melt, but will come back if roots are healthy.
> 
> Let's keep our fingers crossed!


Thank you!! Vallisneria is growing which is promising, then some of the stem plants are growing very nicely. Water is getting cloudy so I'll be doing a 30% water change or so tomorrow.

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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

abepaniagua said:


> Thank you!! Vallisneria is growing which is promising, then some of the stem plants are growing very nicely. Water is getting cloudy so I'll be doing a 30% water change or so tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


In terms of a water change, why? You're parameters are fantastic. Because it looks cloudy? I wouldn't.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

johnwesley0 said:


> In terms of a water change, why? You're parameters are fantastic. Because it looks cloudy? I wouldn't.


It is very cloudy and it doesn't look like it's getting better. So maybe a water change would fix that, or so i thought.

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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

abepaniagua said:


> It is very cloudy and it doesn't look like it's getting better. So maybe a water change would fix that, or so i thought.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I realize it's a matter of personal taste. I was just curious. Photo?


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

Oh. Never mind. I just stumbled upon the thread summary and you DID attach some photos. Yeah, don't know what that is.


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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

This is looking good. Don't worry about the cloudiness, to me it looks like algae and I see that happening very often in new tanks. Just change the water every time it gets too thick (so that it does not choke your plants), and as plants take over the tank you will need less frequent water changes. No need to start trying to adjust light at this point, just be patient.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Daz said:


> This is looking good. Don't worry about the cloudiness, to me it looks like algae and I see that happening very often in new tanks. Just change the water every time it gets too thick (so that it does not choke your plants), and as plants take over the tank you will need less frequent water changes. No need to start trying to adjust light at this point, just be patient.


Thank you. I think it has to be algae because even if the soil was sipping through, shouldn't get this cloudy and this color. I did a 1/4 of water change yesterday. Will do another later this week.

Anyways, inspecting each plant, i can see some bottom leaves have either turned yellow or died but all plants overall seem to have some growth.

Cryptocorines had 1 leaf each that turned yellow and died. The rest seem to be ok.
Vallisneria is thriving. Only 1 leaf was turning yellow on the top and it stopped. 3-4 leaves already at top of tank.
Monte carlo I thought it was stunned...since it's not super green but not very yellow...yet, i just saw 2-3 sprouts on different places. 
Two stems of the guppy gras are already as high as the valls. I will trim and replant!
Anubia is very green, and the roots seem to be moving down looking for the soil. 
One of the dwarf Saggs had a few brown leaves but both are doing well. I don't know how quick or slow it grows, but it doesn't seem to be growing as the others.
Luwidgia, lobelia cardinalis and reineki? (Now I'm not sure) they all seem fine and growing but not with the super red color 2 of them had.

Overall I'm happy with the progress. Obviously I'm impatient and I wish to have a forest/jungle already but I'm reminding myself patience is key.

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

I had to travel and was unable to tend the tank. Thankfully wife kept up the light schedule but tank got very cloudy. After 5 days out of the house, today k was able to do a water change. Did a 60% water change or so.

The top had a lot of biofilm and many dead leaves. Most interesting part is that I'm seeing several sprouts from the montecarlo! The rest of the plants seem to be doing well. Guppy grass is overtaking everything haha. I'll trim it and replant.













































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## Cawafuoshi (Mar 24, 2021)

Interesting and appreciate your hard work to get the plants and get them going. If successful, you probably will never have to spend on a plant again and harvest from your own tanks for others or future aquariums of yours. I also had to buy online because the three local stores I frequent usually aren’t big on plants. I‘m still trying to see what survives while not following the natural approach completely. I call it my experimental tank. The experiences gained will come in handy in the future for new projects.


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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

5 days for that color is just fine, not very pleasing to see but the tank is on the right track. At this point I'd let the Najas shade the tank a bit until the other plants catch up on growth.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Cawafuoshi said:


> Interesting and appreciate your hard work to get the plants and get them going. If successful, you probably will never have to spend on a plant again and harvest from your own tanks for others or future aquariums of yours. I also had to buy online because the three local stores I frequent usually aren't big on plants. I'm still trying to see what survives while not following the natural approach completely. I call it my experimental tank. The experiences gained will come in handy in the future for new projects.


Thanks! Yeah, it was hard to find suppliers but i was able to find what I needed according to recomendations. Excited to see how much it grows.


Daz said:


> 5 days for that color is just fine, not very pleasing to see but the tank is on the right track. At this point I'd let the Najas shade the tank a bit until the other plants catch up on growth.


Shading the tank will affect lighting for bottom plants, no? The color...well, i had seen some Natural tanks with clear water, but i guess this won't be one of those!

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

After water change yesterday, parameters today:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 1.0 ppm
Nitrates 5ppm
GH 200-300ppm
KH 300ppm
pH 8.2

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

_Shading the tank will affect lighting for bottom plants, no? The color...well, i had seen some Natural tanks with clear water, but i guess this won't be one of those! _

I would just give the tank a little more time. Keep doing what you are doing. GWA has a maddening habit of seeming impossible to get rid of and then all of sudden, presto, it will go away. I'm not sure I would shade the tank and set your Monte Carlos back. It would be better to add some floating plants, which can compete efficiently with the GWA. That or a UV sterilizer, which would take care of the GWA in a day or two.


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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

abepaniagua said:


> Shading the tank will affect lighting for bottom plants, no? The color...well, i had seen some Natural tanks with clear water, but i guess this won't be one of those!


Don't shade the tank, just let the Najas grow a along the surface and/or apply Diana's floating plants/UV sterilizer suggestions.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Update:

Plants seem to still be growing. See new monte carlo around here and there. Guppy grass took over so i had to trim it. I added a 1 hornwort, not that it will impact the tank a lot but will be adding more next few weeks.

I also added an amano shrimp. Even though they are supposed to like low pH water, I spent like 3 hours acclimating him and he seems to enjoy the tank. Gets lost between the background plants but comes out from time to time. 

Question;
When i planted the hornwort the soil felt "soft" or airy...like it didn't give any resistance. Is that normal? I thought it be compact.

Edit: what is GWA? green algae? The tank has salvinia natans as floater plants. It's been multiplying and some of them dying too. 

Edit #2: something like this: Fish Tank UV Light Sterilizer 5W-13W Clean Lamp Submersible Aquarium Pond US | eBay

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## Daz (Aug 15, 2020)

Soft soil is good. GWA stands for green water algae. UV sterilizers work very well against GWA, but you are just treating the symptom, although sometimes a little GWA will always be present a healthy mature tank and some people don't like it. Your tank looks fine, and the green water will most likely clear up within two months. At this point the algae is probably helping your tank mature.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Soil is buoyant in the beginning because it contains trapped CO2 gas. It should become more dense over time as decomposition and gas generation slows. I would poke substrate a little with a sharp object to speed up decomposition. GWA (Green water algae) can be a problem, because it drives the pH up such that stem plants and others--that cannot use bicarbonates as a carbon source--have trouble competing. You can get rid of GWA quickly with UV sterilizer. If plants are growing okay, though, you could just wait it out.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Thanks! I woke up today to find the tank with dirt around different places...and bubbles at the top..apparently a bubble came up from soil? I dunno what else it could be. I've been poking the soil but apparently didn't poke some place.

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

abepaniagua said:


> Thanks! I woke up today to find the tank with dirt around different places...and bubbles at the top..apparently a bubble came up from soil? I dunno what else it could be. I've been poking the soil but apparently didn't poke some place.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Sometimes these things happen. It's good you're poking it. Hope the plants are growing.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Sometimes these things happen. It's good you're poking it. Hope the plants are growing.


Thank you!

I will upload a picture with before and after of the UV light. Also plants are growing! The red plants lost many or most of the leaves but sprouted new ones and smaller stems too.

Montecarlo is growing! I thought it was gonna die but i see new bright green leaves coming out of soil.

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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

So spent like 3-4 days with UV light on for 4 hours or a bit more. 

Before









After









Then a few pictures...























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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Cover the tank when the UV is on. That can't be healthy for you.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

UV light can burn your eyes just like direct sunlight. When I said UV light, I meant a UV sterilizing filter where the lamp is encased in a filter-like cylinder through which water is pumped. (You never see the light itself.) I would place your UV light in the back of the tank. The glass and several inches of tank water will absorb the majority of the UV rays and make it safer for tank viewing. That said, I'm glad to see that the light has cleared the water of green water algae. Plants should do much better now-- more CO2, more light, more nutrients for them instead of algae. Making headway!


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Wow...oh my...well, i stopped using it. Thankfully nothing bad happened. Today I finally saw the amano shrimp I added a few weeks back. I really thought it was dead since I hadn't seen him in a while. Had my hopes up when I found a molt. 































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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Glad you've gotten rid of the green water and you've found your shrimp. The UV light is probably not harmful if you keep it at the back of the tank and don't stare at it for hours. (UV rays are absorbed by the water and the tank glass.) The guppy grass seems to be taking over the tank and outcompeting plants making it hard for them to get started. 

Also, all that substrate upheavel is abnormal. Dirt's all on top. Without any fish predators, I suspect some kind of aquatic worms have been "busy as beavers" during the night. (Check your tank late at night with a flashlight.) Aquatic worms, perhaps harmless blackworms, could explain the cloudiness and the upheavel. If that's the problem, you may have to add some fish to this tank. Most fish relish blackworms and if choose carefully (dwarf cichlids, Cory catfish?) you can get fish that will eat the worms but not the shrimp.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Glad you've gotten rid of the green water and you've found your shrimp. The UV light is probably not harmful if you keep it at the back of the tank and don't stare at it for hours. (UV rays are absorbed by the water and the tank glass.) The guppy grass seems to be taking over the tank and outcompeting plants making it hard for them to get started.
> 
> Also, all that substrate upheavel is abnormal. Dirt's all on top. Without any fish predators, I suspect some kind of aquatic worms have been "busy as beavers" during the night. (Check your tank late at night with a flashlight.) Aquatic worms, perhaps harmless blackworms, could explain the cloudiness and the upheavel. If that's the problem, you may have to add some fish to this tank. Most fish relish blackworms and if choose carefully (dwarf cichlids, Cory catfish?) you can get fish that will eat the worms but not the shrimp.


Thank you! I will be trimming the guppy grass.

Now that you mention, i have seen 2 worms. No idea what type, i guessed they must have come with the substrate. I've only seen them because sometimes they move near the glass. But I've never noticed them poking into the water. They do that? 

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Yes, they wiggle above substrate. See photo. They probably caused some of the initial cloudiness and green water algae. Very common and wonderful live food for fish! Our aquarium club pays a bundle to buy and import blackworms from California. Please do not consider killing them with chemicals as they will die in substrate and create a real toxic mess.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Yes, they wiggle above substrate. See photo. They probably caused some of the initial cloudiness and green water algae. Very common and wonderful live food for fish! Our aquarium club pays a bundle to buy and import blackworms from California. Please do not consider killing them with chemicals as they will die in substrate and create a real toxic mess.


I will be buying betta fish so hopefully that'll help. Trimmed the guppy grass...so much of it! My planting skills are "awful" so mid and background plants are mixed and i don't think it looks the best it could. I like it, but i wish it was more aesthetic.

















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## Noahlikesfish (Apr 17, 2021)

hoppycalif said:


> That Classic LED light fixture looks good for that size tank. It looks like it will give you around 50 PAR at the substrate, which is as much light as you should use when you aren't going to use CO2. If it was me doing that I would start both tanks at once, unless the cost of the plants was too high. I would also use 3 or more small Corys, just because they are so entertaining.


3 corydoryas is too few


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## Noahlikesfish (Apr 17, 2021)

dwalstad said:


> Sounds like quite a haul and that you will have fun planting.
> 
> I would just gently rinse the plants.
> 
> You don't need to quarantine them. Planaria won't grow if conditions aren't right for their growth. Dirty, stopped up filter media and overfeeding cause planaria.


+1 planarian aren’t bad either most fish just eat them


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

The Betta will be in heaven. That's probably all you need to take care of the problem.


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## Noahlikesfish (Apr 17, 2021)

If you want your tank to be more aesthetic I would just let it grow wild


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

I will be adding fish today! A betta sorority that a local breeder has. 

Values today:
pH - 7.4-7.8
Ammonia - 0-0.25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm
TDS - 173ppm
KH - 200-250ppm
GH - 150-200ppm

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## ronnie (Feb 26, 2021)

Concerning placement and aesthetic’s of the plants... I feel you 100%!

I’m an artist/designer and am so particular at times. My newest tank wasn’t growing in as I expected and was causing stresssss. But the more I have let it go wild and do their own thing, the more I’ve found great beauty in the natural process.

The “messy” (unorganized planting) areas are actually where my fish, shrimp, and snails can often be found. And the more manicured and carefully placed sections actually look worse than the wild areas.

All this to say, I feel your struggle! But also, there’s great mystery and beauty in just letting our hair down and going with the flow!


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

ronnie said:


> Concerning placement and aesthetic’s of the plants... I feel you 100%!
> 
> I’m an artist/designer and am so particular at times. My newest tank wasn’t growing in as I expected and was causing stresssss. But the more I have let it go wild and do their own thing, the more I’ve found great beauty in the natural process.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this! I've started to enjoy the natural look. My main issue right now is no carpet. Monte carlo Is not dying but also not growing as much. So there's no carpet...nonetheless, like you mentioned, the bettas enjoy the little jungle and "mess" on the background. 

These bettas were eating everything. Tried to eat all the small apple snails in the tank. Ate almost all the little "bugs" that were roaming around the tank, and are closely roaming the soil near the Montecarlo, where the worms peek out at night. They are probably gonna kill my 2 shrimps since these ladies are hunting in groups...the Amano almost jumped out of the water, and the blue dream has been hiding around the tank.































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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Great pictures of Bettas on the hunt. They're beautiful!


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## Noahlikesfish (Apr 17, 2021)

I usually hate bettas but these ones look cool. They aren’t the random disgusting koi Nemo copper giant king platinum goldfish ones they are just basic ones and they are from a breeder and are female


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## Noahlikesfish (Apr 17, 2021)

If I were you I’d get like alder cones to acidify the water for the walstad method and bettas (inhibiting bacteria) and for microfauna for the fish


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

Hello! A few updates,

Some of the plants have grown and continue to grow fine. The Montecarlo died so in trying with another (DHG). The parameters are stable and I've not had any issues there. Algae or bacteria bloom doesn't seem to go away without UV light. 

Also, bettas have been dying of dropsy. I separated them and treated them with oxytetracycline (all of them). So far, most have died. I don't know what to do. Breeders in my country have no idea what creates dropsy, and none tries to cure it (not even early on). Most don't know what to tell me since I have a dirt tank. 

Any ideas? 

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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

There are many diseases that cause dropsy like bacterial infections like fish tuberculosis. Usually, it's fatal, terminal. Sadly a dirt tank is not the best environment to treat diseases. I treat it by culling sick fish and clean any organic matter like mulm in the tank.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> There are many diseases that cause dropsy like bacterial infections like fish tuberculosis. Usually, it's fatal, terminal. Sadly a dirt tank is not the best environment to treat diseases. I treat it by culling sick fish and clean any organic matter like mulm in the tank.


I'll be cleaning all mulch today. I've removed all bettas left and treating them with oxytetracycline for a few days. 

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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your Bettas dying. Mycobacteriosis (MB or "Fish TB") seems to be common in Bettas. MB is a chronic, slow-developing disease that often takes months before the fish develop symptoms. Your fish may have been infected when you bought them. I would not blame it on the soil or the dirt. Ironically, the mycobacteria that cause MB thrive best in ultra-clean environments. There is no cure for MB. If the tetracyline works, then it is not MB and you will be home free. If it doesn't work, chances are it is MB. I have an in-depth article about how I successfully stopped an MB outbreak without tearing the tanks down. The disease is fairly common in aquarium fish.


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## abepaniagua (Sep 26, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Sorry to hear about your Bettas dying. Mycobacteriosis (MB or "Fish TB") seems to be common in Bettas. MB is a chronic, slow-developing disease that often takes months before the fish develop symptoms. Your fish may have been infected when you bought them. I would not blame it on the soil or the dirt. Ironically, the mycobacteria that cause MB thrive best in ultra-clean environments. There is no cure for MB. If the tetracyline works, then it is not MB and you will be home free. If it doesn't work, chances are it is MB. I have an in-depth article about how I successfully stopped an MB outbreak without tearing the tanks down. The disease is fairly common in aquarium fish.


Thank you for the article. It's very thorough and clear. 

As an update: I had dipped them in water with oxytetracycline in a small quarantine tank. One of the 3 bettas left had scales starting to pinecone. The other 2 were fine. I put the UV light inside a filter I had stored and put it in the tank. Water has started to clear up, and today I put the last 2 bettas in the tank again.

Some of the local breeders told me that the conditions in which they breed aren't as clean/pristine as the condition my tank had. All my parameters were fine and i had used the UV light before introducing the bettas. But i believe between transport, and the stress of getting used to each other in a sorority decreased their immune system. 



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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

abepaniagua said:


> Thank you for the article. It's very thorough and clear.
> 
> As an update: I had dipped them in water with oxytetracycline in a small quarantine tank. One of the 3 bettas left had scales starting to pinecone. The other 2 were fine. I put the UV light inside a filter I had stored and put it in the tank. Water has started to clear up, and today I put the last 2 bettas in the tank again.
> 
> ...


It could also be that your fish simply lacked immunity--genetically speaking. Many fish breeders breed only young fish. They toss out their breeding stock after a few batches and start over with a new generation. Over several generations, you get genetically weak fish. And it's a perfect setup for MB. Fish sold are infected, but because the disease is chronic and the fish--despite their being immunologically weak-- are young. They look good for a very brief lifespan. I've not had MB problems in my guppies, but I have had a related problem. They were all dying of one thing or the other at 5-6 months. Disease susceptibility, lower fitness, and early death are all related and the inevitable result of using only young breeders over multiple generations Attached is my article on guppy longevity and how I gradually improved the fitness and disease resistance of my guppies. I strongly suspect that the mass commercial practices used in breeding guppies also apply to Bettas. It's just something to think about.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Weekly water change helps boost fish immunity also but that's not good for a dirt tank.


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## tammywhyknot (Aug 28, 2021)

abepaniagua said:


> Thank you for the article. It's very thorough and clear.
> 
> As an update: I had dipped them in water with oxytetracycline in a small quarantine tank. One of the 3 bettas left had scales starting to pinecone. The other 2 were fine. I put the UV light inside a filter I had stored and put it in the tank. Water has started to clear up, and today I put the last 2 bettas in the tank again.
> 
> ...





abepaniagua said:


> Hello! A few updates,
> 
> Some of the plants have grown and continue to grow fine. The Montecarlo died so in trying with another (DHG). The parameters are stable and I've not had any issues there. Algae or bacteria bloom doesn't seem to go away without UV light.
> 
> ...


I would cap your gravel with an additional layer of sand. About an inch or so. You're having too many nutrients leak through the gravel into the water column. I have 5 Walstad tanks and whenever I had green water or algae blooms, I would add some sand and it stopped the problem immediately and the plants did better and the fish began to thrive. Gravel (especially if not deep enough to cover the soil) lets too many nutrients seep through too quickly whereas sand slows down the process enough so the bacteria can break it down. Too much nitrogen and phosphates from the soil feeds the algae. So add a sand cap and you'll be amazed.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

tammywhyknot said:


> I would cap your gravel with an additional layer of sand. About an inch or so. You're having too many nutrients leak through the gravel into the water column. I have 5 Walstad tanks and whenever I had green water or algae blooms, I would add some sand and it stopped the problem immediately and the plants did better and the fish began to thrive. Gravel (especially if not deep enough to cover the soil) lets too many nutrients seep through too quickly whereas sand slows down the process enough so the bacteria can break it down. Too much nitrogen and phosphates from the soil feeds the algae. So add a sand cap and you'll be amazed.


Interesting results, but I would be very careful about making such a bold recommendation. I would want to know exactly what your substrate is, how old the tanks are, and see 'before and after' pictures of at least one representative tank. And I would start your own thread on this subject where it can be documented more carefully and then discussed. It seems a little out of place here.


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