# Black water/tannins in NPT setup



## merk1_99 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ok I set up a 10 gallon and a 29 gallon tank per the Walstad method. Both tanks have 1-1.5'' organic top soil, capped by 1-1.5'' of play sand. Both have 2 40 watt shoplights for lighting. The problem is the 10 gallon the water is fine, and the 29 gallon the water is black. And I mean black. I have tried carbon on the water top no avail. I can see that what plants I can see that they look healthy. I have been changing 5 gallons out every day to every other day. My guess is that it is tannins in the water from maybe some wood twigs in the bottom of the bag. Any thoughts....

As an aside, I would have planted my 10 gallon more heavily if I could go back in time. I am now experiencing the new tank algae syndrome......When they mean plant heavy...double what you think heavy is....You would think I would have learned by now since this is my third planted tank.....


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Quote: "When they mean plant heavy...double what you think heavy is...."

Unfortunately I am no use on the black-water question. My guess is that you nailed it (tannins) but I don't know what the best course of action would be. 

On the plants, I couldn't help but laugh and respond. I "planted" my tank a while back and some other folks from this site saw it, and fealt so bad that they hooked me up with awesome deals on plants and raok's. Even then I was advised to get more plants, which I didn't because I couldn't imagine where I'd plant them. Then just this past Friday a NASH member, shaking his head once again, gave me even MORE trimmings. I think I'm finally good to go, but like you said, you pretty much have to double what you think is heavy planting.


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## merk1_99 (Dec 3, 2008)

WE are on week three of the 10 gal I think and I think I can see the tannins leaching into the water.....boo! But now I guess I know it will eventually clear up with water changes...


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## tames (Apr 18, 2008)

I have tannin tanks too. They are usually from the small pieces of wood in your soil. I think I have read on this forum that you can set up a HOB filter with charcoal and let that run for a while. I have not tried it yet.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Purigen (from Seachem) is the fastest way of removing tannis.


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## merk1_99 (Dec 3, 2008)

Well an update picture free since my camera is broken. The 10 gallon still has the look of tannins but I am changing out 2-3 gallons a week and am confident in 2-3 months it will settle down. I almost have enough plants in the 10 gallon to be happy. I can see the algae battle is swinging back to in control by the extra plants I've added. I would like to add another 10-15 stemmies like bacopa carolina but we will see.

The 29 gallon was an abject failure. Multiple 5 gallon water changes did not even dilute the color of the water. So I pulled all the plants last night and plan on resetting it up tonight. I was unable to get miracle grow organic potting soil, so I am going to try an organic Maine garden soil, capped with sand. When I was pulling out the substrate I did notice the sand cap was not deep enough in parts, so the soil was closer to the soil than it should have been. There were some areas were the soil was less than 1/4'' from the surface. Obviously a problem, and then in other areas the soil was at the surface.
My plan is to set the tank up again using the NPT method. I am going to use a piece of window fiberglass screen to seperate the layers. Then I am going to measure the sand cap and make sure it keeps at minimum an inch'' depth.
I don't think the fiber glass screen will impact the root systems of the plants because plants are pretty tricky and tough. Worse case scenario the roots will grow along the screen still able to access soil nutrients. But what I think will happen is the roots will pentrate the holes in the screen to get to the black gold. In my dart frog terranium the roots of the plants I have in it have been able to work below the screen layer. If roots can crack concrete foundations I am sure they can penetrate the screen. Unfortunately I think I am going to well short of enough plant mass. With what I was able to pull and save from the previous tank, and with what I bought in a plant pack I am thinking I am going to be 30-40% short of my desired plant biomass. I looked at my 4 gallon NPT tank and there is little to anything for me to pull from. I guess that is the only problem going NPT plant growth is not explosive so you may have to buy on the outside.....Oh well....I much prefer the NPT method than when I was running CO2and high light. Though I am considering setting up a high light CO2 plant growth tank with low light plants so when I need more plants for various projects I will have some to pull instead of having to buy them.


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## tacoman1423 (Aug 28, 2009)

also to help to significantly reduce the chance of tannins, screen the soil before adding to the tank. I usually dry out the soil first because its easier to screen it. Screening should remove those small pieces of wood or twigs.

the soil i use is gardenpro topsoil from lowes


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## merk1_99 (Dec 3, 2008)

Well I added the substrate and used the screen method between layers. Looks like it may have some promising results but that will be determined by the plants and such. Another trick I did you was wet sand. While it is more difficult to add it holds its position better when adding the water. So far the tank has 10 gallons of water wating for plants to be added to be completely full. That should happen in the next few days as I got a couple of plant packs from members. At least when I added water this time I did not see the water staining so I remain hopeful over the next few days that it might maintain its current condition.


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## merk1_99 (Dec 3, 2008)

So far so good. Water in the 29gal is clear. Still have to add 10 gals or so but I was waiting for more plants to arrive. Hopefully will get them in tonight and fill with the remaining water. If it still looks good this weekend I am going to redo my 10gal with the same methods. I am hesitant to do so because I have baby fry swimming around and I don't want to miss one.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

When adding something large with tannins (driftwood or wood by any other name) you can boil it in several changes of water to reduce the tannins. I am not sure if this idea would work with soil. Make quite a mess, I am sure!

Plant heavily....
So densely you cannot see the back of the tank.


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

You can reduce the color by using carbon.


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