# Test of Flow



## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

_Disclaimer: If you plan on giving me the scientific definition of a "test", please don't. I'm a hobbyist, not a scientist. Right now I'm still enjoying the hobby.  _

I'm not going to wait until I have "the answer" to post this. Instead, you will all have the opportunity to witness, firsthand, my success or failure (or mixture of the two). Plus, I want to get some more insight and opinions so that if it works or doesn't, we'll already have a better understanding as to "WHY".

In a few threads, I've read about flow, proper flow, flow rates, filter needs, flow in filters, size of filters and the flow needed per...you get the idea. What I want to know is, in an aquarium, with the proper amount of movement, will the tank (plants, hardscape, substrate, etc... ) be its own filter...not needing an outside filter source (canister, HOB, wet/dry, etc... )?


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Like every other tank I've set up before, my 125 took about 5 months to be what I consider "established" (mostly free of algae, clear water, healthy growing plants, stable conditions, etc... ). The filtering capacity on this tank was pretty much insufficient, but after some time it worked itself out. I had a 290gph canister filter with a 3-4 gallon capacity and a 600 gph Koralia powerhead. The recommended flow and filter size for this tank would be 1,200 gph (more or less) with at least a 5 gallon filter canister. (You can find more about that info in other threads on water movement and filtering).

So, starting today, the canister filter is no more. Since the tank is well established now, it is reasonable to believe that everything inside the tank is covered with bacteria/micro-organisms that would be found in any canister filter. That "should" make my tank a 125 gallon capacity "filter", right?

With the flow and capacity I recommended above, the water should be crystal clear and the plants healthy (refer to Japanese tanks as an example...or the San Marcos River).

As of this evening, I HAD upwards of 2,178 gph in this tank, all from 3 powerheads. It was utter chaos, so I removed one and now have upwards of 1,389 (a 600gph Koralia and a 789gph SunSun). Movement is swift in most of the tank with some slow spots (I have alot of plants and hardscape to direct/absorb flow energy).

I'll keep you posted, but please feel free to chime in with thoughts, questions, suggestions, ideas, opinions, etc... (but don't define "test" please  ).

Oh, and there's already a wrench in the system. My CO2 ran out today and I can't refill it until next Monday. Who thinks this will be a major factor?

-Dave


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I have ran a tank without a filter before. But with very low flow. It worked without a problem.

My canister broke and by the time I fixed it the tank was without a filter for about 2 weeks if I remember correctly. May have been longer. I didn't change anything - did not reduce the light, turn the CO2 off, or anything. The plants showed better growth the very next day after the filter disappeared. I attribute that to a little extra Ammonia they could get to. The tank had no fish, just plants mind you. It was a 55 with a 120 gph powerhead now. 

I think that it it realistic to expect that a tank can run without a filter. But to me a filter is an insurance. If something goes bad the bacteria handle it and you don't even suspect it happened. 

Now, I do not know how good flow changes things. From what we see in the Japanese and other tanks good flow is extremely important. Yes, in the range of 8-10 times the tank volume per hour. Will this allow for a completely filterless tank to run just fine? I really want to know the answer of that too!

Keep up with the updates, this is interesting!

--Nikolay


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Walstad implies it will work. She often removes filters on established tanks; substituting power heads or only using the filter for flow. From what I remember, she makes no attempt to get the rate of flow we are talking about. My guess is that it will work better with more flow.

By accident, I am trying something similar on my 40 gallon. The Ehiem 2217 supposedly delivers 250 gph, but I doubt that mine is giving more than 100 gph. (Can't figure it out, but that is for another thread.) So I've added a 250 gph powerhead. The tank is clear and has no algae problems.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I've always thought there are two different main functions of the filter. At startup it provides flow and most mechanical/chemical filtration. This type of filtration is really acts as a stopgap until the tank gets established. In most good size tanks the filter is a much smaller part of the biological filter and most of the filtration is in the tank IMO. I've forgotten to restart my filter several times on my 72g and there was no ill effect after having the filter off for a few days. I've had my 72g running now for almost three years with just a Eheim 2215 on it with no problems. The water is crystal and I have really no algae to speak of. In most normal size rectangular type tanks I've never noticed any issues with lack of co2 or nutrient delivery in any part of the tank.

PS. I like your disclaimer!


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Interesting thread. I tried no filtration before with modest/low flow and it worked, but it took 6 months to get it there. I am interested in how this turns out.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey guys, sorry I kinda dropped off the planet for a couple days there. 

So far the fish are loving the flow and the plants seem to be doing well. However, the temporary loss of CO2 is having a toll. The water looks clear, but has a green tint to it and the glass has algae on it. I'm not even going to bother cleaning it until I get the CO2 back up.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Is the algae coming from too much light, nutrients, or are you thinking it has something to do with the lack of a filter? I wasn't sure if you were still dosing even without the CO2 going.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

I think the algae is probably due to the sudden loss of the filter (the biological filter will have to rebound) combined with the large amount of plants we removed and the loss of CO2. I cut back on ferts but still add Potassium since I am often deficient in that. I did a major water change and it cleared up but now I have green water. I'll give the tank time to rebound and regrow...and the CO2 will be back tomorrow evening.

Also, I found a spot behind some wood to add back the other powerhead. PArt of the flow is blocked and I believe (but cannot prove) this causes back-pressue and reduced flow on that head. My guesstimate is that I have between 1,400 - 1,800 gph of flow. If they were all at 100%, it would be 2,178.

The SAE's and Otos are LOVING it.

I took some photos and will post them when I get a chance. (That might be a few days...sorry. )


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

You know, if I had said "I'll post pics right now... " something would have happened and it really would have been a few days... Anyway...

Here's how I know this test will work. My daughter's tank has had no filter EVER (it's about 2-3 yrs old). Since we moved, I've had to change the water every 2 weeks (well water that is not filtered) and cloudiness to some degree usually sets in after 3 days of the change. I added a powerhead to this 10 gal tank (don't know the GPH, maybe 100 - 150) and changed the water last weekend. So, after 7 days and the powerhead, the water is still crystal clear. This is what I hope for in my 125.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

And here is my tank. You can see the two heads on either side directing flow in a circular motion. The 3rd head is behind the arch of driftwood pointing to the left at and angle (it was installed after this photo).










Evidence of the cloudiness I have to put up with...and this is after a major water change









I fear these two spots (that until last Monday were FULL of Crypts) are going to cause me trouble until they grow back in.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

I apologize for stealing this, but this fits in with my "test" and shows why my "test" may NOT work (I know, I'm contradicting myself and I'll explain).

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ub/78963-low-tech-tank-really.html#post595232

That tank has the "proper" flow. A single (my assumption, not a verified fact) flow outlet directing flow throughout the tank in a cyclical movement and a huge bio-capacity of 6 gallons (which I'm not convinced is needed in a heavily planted tank...since the extra surface are within the tank provides for bio-media).

This is similar to what my daughter's tank has. One output and 1 intake, and flow is directed throughout, without any conflicting or counter flows.

In my 125, I have the AMOUNT of flow, and more, but it's comign from 3 sources, each in a very different spot in the tank. And try as I might, those flows DO counter one another at certain spots in the tank. I'd love to put them all on one side, situated toward the top, pointed to the opposite end, and see what happens. Due to the punch they have though, that would mean HEAVY surface movement. But, the tank Niko linked us to has no CO2 and the same amount of light I have now.

SO tempted...what to do, what to do...


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

It won't hurt to try having them on one end, and you can decide whether or not at that time you are spending your money assing the room as opposed to the tank.

I notice the plants though in that one tank are mostly moss/fern (or looked like it from afar; I only watched the first few seconds). 

Maybe try putting the power heads in the place where the Crypts came out of? That's lower and may result in less surface wave action. But looking at your tank I would also think it'd be worth trying one of the SunSun's where you have the Koralia and see how that works for a week (just have 800 gph).


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## wearsbunnyslippers (Feb 18, 2008)

i dont have any filters in my emersed setups, and besides the water being yellow from the peat in my crypt pots, the water is always crystal clear with only the use of a powerhead.

granted there are no fish in there, and i dont add any food...


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

I have a similar problem in a 40 gallon, albeit with only two sources of flow, a cannister filter and a power head.

I placed the intake and outflow of the cannister on one short side of the tank (with the intake near the back and the outflow near the front) trying to create the oval gyre. When the flow was not sufficient, I added the power head on the opposite side back corner, pointing along the back of the tank toward the intake on the other side.

This arrangement got the current moving in the oval pattern throughout the tank. If the tank were bigger or longer, I would try to add another power head somewhere along the path of the gyre to boost water movement in the same direction.

This tank had ocasional bouts of cloudiness until I added the power head in the right spot.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

I just tried all the powerheads on one side and, believe it or not, the flow pattern (perfect as it was) only reached 5' down the length of the tank. The last foot of tank was nearly motionless/dead space. I also tries just one head and it didn't quite cut the mustard. So, The arrangement I had will have to suffice...for now.

I am willing to be someone's guinea pig if you want to build a canister filter from a 6 gallon bucket and a 1300 gph pressure pump.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

The green water that started to peak into my tank went full-blown. It has cleared up a bit though, more than I expected. If I can get a picture before it clears more I'll get one (so you all don't think I'm just posting the pretty pictures and throwing out the "real"
ones). 

My daughter's tank is still as clear as ever. Usually by now I've had to do a water change on her tank to keep it clear...but I've done nothing. The water movement has definitely made an improvement.

Oh, I ordered concentrator nozzles for the other 2 powerheads to cut down on surface agitation. Right now my tank surface has tremendous movement...overkill in my opinion.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

davemonkey said:


> I just tried all the powerheads on one side and, believe it or not, the flow pattern (perfect as it was) only reached 5' down the length of the tank. The last foot of tank was nearly motionless/dead space. I also tries just one head and it didn't quite cut the mustard. So, The arrangement I had will have to suffice...for now.
> 
> I am willing to be someone's guinea pig if you want to build a canister filter from a 6 gallon bucket and a 1300 gph pressure pump.


See, I had the same observation in a 6' long tank! With all flow coming from 1 side the last 1 foot of the length of the tank just would not budge. I added pumps and powerheads and still had the same problem. The water moved faster but the last 1 foot of the tank remained stagnant!

I started to believe that a Lily Pipe may have a special impact because it actually increases the flow rate by "pulling" water from the sides into the main outflow stream that it creates. But if you look at large ADA tanks (6' long and more) very often you will see 2 filters and 2 outflows! Not always but quite often. The tanks that seem to do well with only 1 flow are very open, few rocks and a carpet of very low plants.

I used to think that the only reason for using 2 filters is filtration volume and enough flow. But if you add up the filter flow rates it turns out that in these large tanks the flow rate is not that crazy. Also ADA does not put the 2 outflows on the same side of the tank! Looks as if there are problems with the flow pattern in a tank longer than 5'. It is not a question of flow rate, but how the water is involved in the movement. Flow pattern that is.

In all this we maybe stumbling on another interesting thing. The fact that a large tank requires certain water movement setup that is not the same as in smaller tanks.

--Nikolay


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Good insight Nikolay. This thread is quite interesting and I am happy to see it moving along, as I eventually would like another large tank, and this type of info is definitely helpful.

I'll have to look into lily pipes, as this is kind of new to me.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Michael said:


> Walstad implies it will work. She often removes filters on established tanks; substituting power heads or only using the filter for flow. From what I remember, she makes no attempt to get the rate of flow we are talking about. My guess is that it will work better with more flow.
> 
> By accident, I am trying something similar on my 40 gallon. The Ehiem 2217 supposedly delivers 250 gph, but I doubt that mine is giving more than 100 gph. (Can't figure it out, but that is for another thread.) So I've added a 250 gph powerhead. The tank is clear and has no algae problems.


Interesting? I am using an Eheim 2217 on my 10 gal reef tank and I'm having the same problem. I bought another filter and will loop it in and find out what is going on with the Eheim.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that problem with the 6' long tank. What amazes me (but it does make sense) is that when I put two heads, each on opposite sides (and one positioned near the front, the other near the rear) suddenly the flow not only reaches all 6', but it is strong flow. 

I think the other powerhead helps that by "pulling" the flow of the opposite powerhead. They shoot each others flow around the tank in a circular motion. I think lily pipes (or any output) would have a similar effect when placed that way in a large tank.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Oh, just to update some...I have also ordered a lab-quality water filter (not RO, but just a step under it) that hooks to my garden hose. I've been having to filter the water during water changes due to high sediment and color of the well water, but I had previously been using cheap filters. I think starting out with "clean" water will also help this test.

When it arrives, I'll post you guys a before/after (dirty vs clean) and then a subsequent update at an interval that I am used to seeing the water get dingy.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

So I guess this means you are settling on having two powerheads for just under 1,400 gph movement in a circular flow. Staying tuned...


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Mudboots, yes with the two I'm keeping I have anywhere between 1,180 - 1,578 gph depending on what efficiency they pump at (each is a 789 gph nominal powerhead).

And for those who doubt the flow potential of these, this air tubing is 40" away from the powerhead blowing against it...









And here are the green water shots as promised:

























*Side View to give you a better idea of the severity...*


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

So here it is a couple hours after a 90+% water change. One thing I have always noticed in my well water is that is is very high in dissolved gases (which ones, I'm not sure...maybe nitrogen or CO2, or some mix of several... ). The plants bubble like crazy for the first several hours after water changes. This time it actually got bad. Replacing nearly all of the tank water with this well water (which was filtered through a 1 micron and then a ceramic anti-microbial filter) caused over saturation of gases even in my fish, bubbles were building up in the fins and skin. There were some casualties.

Front to back, the water looks perfectly clear. Looking in from the end it is hazy, but some of that is air bubbles. I'll let it go for a week, fertilizing only with potassium unless I see specific deficiency, and then report back with updated photos.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

So far so good!! It's been a week and the water is still relatively clear...meaning free of cloudy particles. However, I am still having a slight green water problem. Yet, even with the green water, the water is still relatively clear and aesthetically nice enough to enjoy. (I WILL still do a 50% water change to clear up the green hue though. )

On the downside, I noticed some deposit (detritus, mulm, waterever you want to call it) on a few Anubias leaves in a slower portion of the tank. I can't help but think that if all my flow was being channeled into a canister full of lava rock or the like, that the deposits would be inside that canister, trapped in the lava rock, rather than in my tank.


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## isenblatter (Jul 25, 2008)

davemonkey, I thought I sent you a pm, but I can't find it in my outbox/sent folder. So I don't think it went though so I'll ask here. If I understand it correctly you have no mechanical filtration on this tank correct? Just powerheads for circulation. If that is the case, have you had any recent issues since your last post? I'm thinking of taking the HOB off of my tank. But I've notice I"ve got several "deadspots" in my tank as well where I get piles of "crud".


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

I have never found anything that will cure GW but a UV sterilizer.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

isenblatter, you sent me an IM...I only just now got it and responded, so the next you log in you'll see it.

Here is what I have found so far. In my daughter's 10 gallon, this power head only test is GREAT. Her tank is super clear and things are growing well.

However, in my 125, not so good. The water quality is fine and the plants are growing and the flow is near perfect. BUT, my cedar stumps are so large that, even after 7 months in, they still are releasing tannins. Also, I never pre-cleaned them, and so I get wood bits and microfibers regularly. I still end up having to do large weekly water changes to get the water "crystal" again.

SOOOO, this freedom from filters really depends on the tank and what is in it. For the 125, I have realized that I DO need a large canister filter for mechanical filtration in order to have the clear water. In my daughters 10 gal, the powerhead with 10x flow is all she needs and it is a great system.

Anyone want to trade a 2262 for a few bags worth of Anubias?


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