# [Wet Thumb Forum]-My Phobia on Sump



## Liquid (Nov 19, 2004)

Hi All,

I'm wondering if my phobia on sump is founded. In the event of a power failure while my family and I were away on holidays, I dread the thought of coming home to find my floor flooded and the furniture and cabinet wrecked


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## Liquid (Nov 19, 2004)

Hi All,

I'm wondering if my phobia on sump is founded. In the event of a power failure while my family and I were away on holidays, I dread the thought of coming home to find my floor flooded and the furniture and cabinet wrecked


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## Liquid (Nov 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Liquid:
> Hi All,
> ...


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## lucille (Jul 6, 2003)

I understand how you feel. And, in the event of a pump shutdown, a tube clog, and so on, there will be SOME water when you come home. BUT, the water should go INTO the sump by an overflow. This is built so that if something does go wrong, when the water falls below the level of the overflow the tube will no longer be primed and the water connection will be broken, and the water will no longer flow out of the tank. In addition, the water LEAVING the sump should pass through a check valve (Home Depot, $5) installed right after the pump and this will prevent any backflow, so if the pump shuts down the return tube will not be turned into a siphon.
I am still working with my sump as there is a small leak in the one I bought used and I am repairing it, but I do think it is very worthwhile to have one of these, and if you use an overflow/check valve you can minimize water damage in a catastrophe or unplanned shutdown.


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

If your tank is predrilled, or you drill it, there is 0 chance of any water on your floor.

If you decided to go with an external overflow, you could have a problem with flooding. If the siphon was broken, water would stop flowing back to the sump, and your pump would pump the contents of your sump into your tank. If your tank could not handle the added volume, if would flood. How much water depends on the size of your sump and the remaining volume in your tank.


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I guess I should add. I am currently re setting up my newly setup tank with a sump, as IMO there is no better way to do it.


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## Pedro (Jun 11, 2003)

There is an easy way to stop the syphoning effect of return lines in the event of pump failure or overflow failure. This is a technique I learned from some reefers I know (you should see some of their sumps, absolutely mind-boggling), drill an 1/8" hole in the intake line heading from the sump to the pump. The hole should be placed just below the desired minimum water level of the sump. Another hole should be drilled in the outflow between the tank and the pump, again right below the minimum desired water level of the tank.

In order to clarify, I'm attempting what will probably be a very sorry schematic:

[]<-- line in
[]_________tank level____________
[]<--drill hole here
[]___
[____~~~~~~~~

[]<--line out
[] 
[]___________sump level____________
[]<--drill hole here
[]
[]
[]
'`

Should the pump fail, the tank will only drain to the level where the hole was drilled in the outflow line, regargless of how deep the rest of the tubing goes into the tank. Should the overflow fail, the water in the sump will only be pumped out to the level where the hole was drilled into the line out going to the pump.

*Disclaimer*

Granted this may result in the burn up of the pump, but that is much better than the creation of "Living Room Lake".

Furthermore, this setup is dependent upon the use of an external pump (more widely used in the salt water side of the hobby).

Thoughts, suggestions, oversights on my part?


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Pedro,

That is exactly what you do in the case of stopping your return line from back siphoning your tank. Yes it does create risk to your pump. The best way to do this is a one way valve. It's basically a ball that the water pushes up while it's running, then when the pump stops working and water starts flowing back down the pipe, the water flowing back pushes the ball down against a seal stopping water from flowing back. This creats no risk at all.

What I was trying to describe earlier is what happens if you have an external overflow, and the siphon in the U tube connecting the tank to the overflow box gets broken. The pump keeps pumping the water in the sump out untill the sump runs dry, almost always overflowing your tank. Happend to me, 26G on the floor. I came home in the basement and there was water comming through the light in the ceiling. No serious damage, just needed the carpets cleaned. That was some scary stuff!


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## lucille (Jul 6, 2003)

Justin, its called a check valve like I mentioned in my post. Anyway, I also have the little holes on the line like Pedro mentioned, it doesn't hurt to have more than one method of backup just in case....


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Yes lucile, your correct. I was trying to describe it so people could get a visual of what I was talking about.

The last method of preventing a back siphon flood is simple sump volume. The water will only back siphon as long as your return is below the surface of the water. As the water siphons out, the water level lowers, eventually the return will suck some air breaking the siphon. So if your return is just below the waters surface, then there will only be a small amount of back siphon. If your sump can handle the volume, it's insignifigant. I have a small hole drilled as well as extra sump volume.


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I should add when running my sump will be about 1/3 full, it's total capacity is roughly 20G. Tank is a 75.


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## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

Uhmmmmm, perhaps I am mistaken......but I thought that the continuous siphon overflows would restart when you started pumping water back into the tank??? I have looked at them and it appears so to me. And I am almost entirely sure about this from my experience with a friend's tank. But I could be mistaken.

I have no clue how to explain how they do it, but.....yeah, I don't know. You guys have confused me now, lol.









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15XH, 36W PC, XP-1, Onyx Sand, DIY CO2

Crypts ciliata and wendtii bronze and red, "sunset" hygro, green hygro, pennywort, wisteria and java fern and moss.


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## Pedro (Jun 11, 2003)

If you drill another hole in the line leading from the sump to the main tank, just below water line, in the event of overflow failure/blockage this hole will break siphon preventing the contents of the sump from being pumped into the main tank and subsequently on to the floor. Whew! I need a breath... Of course this only works when using an external pump.


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

Pedro, 

How will drilling the hole just below the water line if the pump is IN the water prevent it from overfilling the tank? Do you think the small hole will vent enough pressure to stop water from reaching the tank, when the water level drops, but not when it is full?

This does not sound right to me! Maybe I am confused. You did mean internally when you said externally right?


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## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

I think you are confusing all of us with your questions.

When you use a sump type filter you use a continuous siphon to draw the water from the tank. This is an uninterruptible siphon. If water stops being pumped into the tank, by nature of it's design it will stop siphoning water out. But yet the siphon is not broken. So when water is again pumped into the tank, it restarts. You would have to go look at a diagram of one to see exactly what I am talking about. It is rather difficult to explain in words as to how it does this.

What Pedro was talking about I believe is on the return line. You drill a hole just below the water line on the return side. You do this so that when the pump goes off like in a power failure the return line doesn't function as a siphon and overflow your sump and spill water everywhere. It will only siphon water down to the level at which you drill the hole in the return line. After it reaches that hole air enters the line and breaks the siphon on the return side. As long as your sump isn't over full and is properly sized for your tank it will accomodate this water and doesn't overflow.

Did I answer your questions? If not could you please restate them to where I can more easily understand?

Sump type filters are one of the most complexly simple systems ever. I stared at a continuous uninterruptible siphon box for a LONG time before I quit telling myself there was no way it could work. And I am a pretty intelligent person. They are exquisitely simple and once you understand how they work it will amaze you. It is hard to believe that you can stop a siphon, and it will restart without causing any problems. But it works. It is just sometimes difficult to grasp exactly how they do so.

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15XH, 36W PC, XP-1, Onyx Sand, DIY CO2

Crypts ciliata and wendtii bronze and red, "sunset" hygro, green hygro, pennywort, wisteria and java fern and moss.


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## Jon Mulzer (Mar 9, 2003)

Another thing I should add. People have had mixed results with check valves functioning in aquarium plumbing systems. After time algae and other things can build up on them making for a chance that they will malfunction. I am for the simple hole drilled to break the siphon. Almost no way for it to go wrong.

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15XH, 36W PC, XP-1, Onyx Sand, DIY CO2

Crypts ciliata and wendtii bronze and red, "sunset" hygro, green hygro, pennywort, wisteria and java fern and moss.


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## Shilo (May 2, 2003)

Hope this helps explains things a bit more. We have a lot of power cuts here and I have never had the tank or sump overflow. Syphon restarts each time. 
Sump and Trickle Filter

Cheers
Shilo


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

I am completely aware of how all of this is going to work and does work. I have all these different systems at work and I do maitnence on them daily. Might as well mention, AG & Oceanic overflow kits all come predrilled in the return side top elbow.

This is what confused me. Pedro said:



> quote:
> 
> []<--line out
> []
> ...


I am not fully understanding how this works. Take note he is not describing the tank. He is describing the sump.


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## lucille (Jul 6, 2003)

Justin, my sump is down because I am fixing a leak, but when it was up and running other than the quick look I give all my equipment once a day, I did not have to do daily maintenance. If you are having to maintain your sump every day, the equipment is probably functioning incorrectly.


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## Justin Fournier (Jan 27, 2004)

O right now I have a sump at work, works great.

At home I have a canister filter running my UV and C02 Reactor. That is what requires daily maitnence. Having 2 accesories run by a canister is not a good setup IME.


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