# Discuss; Giving good critiques, advice and/or constructive criticism



## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I would like to discuss this topic a bit more, there is brief mention in the aquascaping sticky. It mentions the purpose of the aquascaping forum is to showcase your tanks and get/give feedback. It says to try and give a good critique, and give positive feedback. But what is a good critique? I'll be perfectly honest, I don't know. That is why I want to discuss this. I'm not very good at giving critiques, or using them for that matter. I read through this forum often, and I have seen some useful critiques and some not so usefull. I think we need to have some guidelines for what is good and bad. So to start the discussion I'll post some questions.

1: What is a good critique, and how do we give one?

2: What is a bad critique, and how do we avoid giving bad advice?

3: How do we take the critque and use it to our advantage?


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

1: I'll start off with, what is a good critique? For this I think we need some kind of reference, aquascaping is an art form, maybe we should treat it as such. I found this link when I was thinking about this and I think it gives a good general outline on how to critique art. 
ArtCritingProcess



http://www.brigantine.atlnet.org said:


> The Art Critiquing Process is a method of organizing the facts and your thoughts about a particular work of art. In some ways it is similar to the Scientific Method used in your science classes. The Art Critiquing Process is broken down into FOUR areas. The FOUR steps are; Description, Analysis, Interpretation and Judgment. Each section must be covered in order, beginning with Description. This order helps you to organize your thoughts and to make intelligent and educated statements about a work of art. It is very important that you are familiar with the Elements of Art and the Principles of Design as they will provide you with the vocabulary and knowledge necessary to critique art intelligently.


This is for art, in the form of paintings. How can we relate this to our hobby/art form?

2: For reference I used a photography site that deals with taking better photos. http://myfourthirds.com/document.php?id=11237Twenty-One Ways to Improve Your Photographs[/url] It is kind of a stretch but one paragraph in the site pertains to the question.



"Brooks Jensen" of [URL said:


> http://myfourthirds.com][/URL] 14.) Ignore advice from others if they tell you how to do it their way. Of course, ultimately I suppose this advice also pertains to this list. But, fundamentally, I mean this to apply to photo criticism. There is no more useless critique than when the comment starts out, "If it were my picture I would have done..." It is not their picture, and how they would have done it is totally non sequitur. The best critics will tell you what it is they see in your photograph and leave it up to you to decide whether or not what they see is a function of their unique vision or your success or failure in making the image you intended.


So what is bad advice or critique then? If we use Mr. Jensen's advice then comments like; I would take out that driftwood its distracting. Or "if that were my tank" would be bad advice. I don't necessarily agree 100% with the above statement it, is just a reference to start discussion. If this offends anyone I apologize, I'm merely being a devil's advocate. Is it bad advice though? Maybe it isn't, the above mentioned link is for a photography site, not aquaria. How can we relate this to us? There are 2 types of critiques; academic critique and personal critique. An academic critique deals with the technical aspect and deals with the subject manner and then you give an opinion at the end that summarizes everything. Then there is personal critique, which gives opinion throughout the process. Which is better for us? I'm not sure there is a definitive answer for that.

Please give your thoughts on the topic. I would like to hear your opinions on the subject.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

*Should Critiqueing be Done?*

The quote from the photography is rather dangerous to me, because it delves into the question of "Is art about self-interpretation or the opinions of others?"

It's easy to say, "Art is subjective, so if I like it I like it." The problem is that art is judgeable, and people do judge it. Artists can say what they like, but they will succeed or fail for economic reasons.

Basically, I'm saying that while keeping your own intentions is important, we should start from the premises that the opinions of others and their judgements of your artwork is important to consider, and ultimate is very relevant to the success of your work as art. Basically, judgement/critiqueing is a relevant activity that should be done.

I think we can also say that the value of a critique is directly proportionate to how useful it is to the artist. At least, I'm going to start from that premises.

*How do we do it?*

After saying yes, it should be done, of course next comes the question of exactly how?

*Usefulness of Critique*

First, I think we have to acknowledge that critiques _*cannot* be purely objective_. If they were, then they would be merely descriptive. The artist is just as capable of seeing the piece as the viewer, so objective information such as "3/4 of the background plants are red," is probably not that useful . . .

Objective Statement: You are using Cardinal Tetras.

Artist: . . . Why, yes I am using Cardinal Tetras. Umm . . . what do you think of the piece?

Objective Statement: You have red plants in the tank.

Artist: That's true . . . um . . .

*In other words it's the subjective statements, statements that ultimately are connected to the viewer's opinion, that make critiques useful or not.*

Subjective Statement: Your use of cardinal tetras give power to the layout.

Artist: I think I understand what you mean-- thanks for the feedback.

I will thus propose the idea that all subjective judgements are, technically speaking, useful because they give us information on how others perceive our work. In other words, since the opinions/thoughts/perceptions of others are important to our success as artists, information regarding those perceptions is useful.

That said, there are definitely different levels of "usefulness" and a _good_ critique should strive to be really useful.

The statement "Your rocks suck" would be technically useful, but it's usefulness would probably be so miniscule that it would be almost insignificant.

What we should strive to define are how to make our critiques more useful. For that, I'll share some of my opinions about good critiques.

*Language*

I think that language is the first and easiest thing to correct/define for the purpose of making critiqueing more useful. The way we phrase our thoughts will make a big difference in the nature of the critique, and how it's read by the receiver.

It could even be the same information, but the way it's phrased makes a big difference in how much we are able to take from it. Example:

"Your fish really screw it up!"

versus

"I do not think these fish are very suitable to this lay out."

It may seem like just politeness, but you'd be suprised how quickly courtesy can fly out the window when people are discussing their perceptions and opinions. Even beyond simple courtesy though, the way information is phrased can change how it's understood.

"The rocks are too straight."

versus

"The rocks are too uniformly distributed."

The speaker could mean the same thing, but the second phrase makes the meaning much more clear. In other words, a good critique should strive to provide the clearest wording possible that can best describe what he is trying to say.

One thing that goes with this idea is *detail*. A detailed description helps a lot more than others.

"The 3rd stone from the right should . . ."

will cause little confusion compared to:

"that rock in the middle"

Next, let's talk about supporting our opinions. While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, and art being subjective has it's success highly decided by opinions, critiques will become better when the critique can explain his opinion.

Instead of just saying, "That piece of wood looks unbalanced," it would be much better to support this statement with an explaination. For instance, talking about the consequences of the current position of the wood, how it affects the distribution of negative space and changes the perception of thickness or thinness in various other areas of the lay out.

Explaining _why_, will always be very helpful to the artist as opposed to just a statement-- even if he decides to disagree, hearing an explanation for your opinion will be helpful.

*Receiving Feedback*

. . .

*Don't be a freaking pansy!!!!*

If you're an artist, you should be able to take the heat. You should care much more about personal development than you should worry about "having my feelings hurt." Oh, how sad. I'm sorry, do you need a hankee?

That's part of being an artist. Even statements like, "Sorry, I just don't like it." or "Wow! Awesome!" have some value, and it's the job of the artist to assess the value of all his feedback, and use it accordingly to help himself.

Of course these simple feedbacks won't be that useful, but the artist should still consider them as far as they are useful (even if that is a small degree).

*Note: That doesn't mean he has to be patient of rudeness. He can be pissed at the rudeness, but this still should not disuade him from using the critique insofar as it's useful. He may even decide that the person who said it is an idiot and it's practically useless, but he should make that decision with a calm, objective head (objectively realizing the rude guy's an idiot, but still objectively doing so).

*One challenge an artist will face is that people have different degrees to which they can explain themselves. * We all have limits on our vocabulary, and our explanatory skills. We've all felt that feeling of wanting to say something, but not really knowing how to say it. Especially those without an art background, will have difficulty giving good artistic feedback.

The problem is that art is not an elitist deal. Artists might be few, but the people who enjoy art and who's perception of art matters, is basically EVERYONE. Therefore, a dedicated artist should learn to listen even to people who are not so good at explaining themselves or their opinions. It's hard, deal with it.

A good example is an excericise I do where I take people in the dorm who come to look at my aquarium, and I show them the 2005 ADA contest book. I get their opinions on the lay outs.

Usually, even these educated young college students can barely say more than "I like that one" or "This is pretty" or "Eww, that's weird." They don't have the experience, especially with aquascaping, to say much else.

And it's hilarious because often the bad looking scapes by typical planted tank hobbyist standards, are the ones they like! It helps put me in perspective, and I find it very useful because sometimes the scapes they really like are the ones I thought were really lacking!

Ultimately, feedback is to help the artists. Artsts have to learn to be good listeners and use as all feedback as best they can. The critiques on the other hand, should strive to give the a detailed and easy to understand explanation of their opinions. Remember that aritists, like all people, have their limits in understanding language too!


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

1: What is a good critique, and how do we give one?

A good critique is the one that can be a helpful guide towards improvement of the receiving party.
- It must be objective based, the intention of the critique.
- It must not inflict prolong sufferring towards receiver - phycologically. 
- It could sparks sudden awareness. 
- It does not allow the receiver to question if the critique is one-sided. 
- It is convincing. Add statistical proof/facts or your own experience will help. 
- It should be delivered in comforting manner where persuasive terms are frequent. Sarcastic behaviors/remarks should be avoided, anywhere. Just leave them at home.
- Use "I think" to express that it is your personal point of view.
- Use "It would be better if you...", "You could be more successful if you.." 

2: What is a bad critique, and how do we avoid giving bad advice?
- The reverse of all the above.
- Avoid playing god and be humble. We are human, we could be wrong, most of the time.
- Avoid repetition as it promotes frustration. 
- Do not critic on things that you know cannot be changed. 
- Do not instruct. Even you have the seniority. 

3: How do we take the critque and use it to our advantage?
- Instantly create this in your mind: 
"What the xxxx is this guy talking about ? 
He think his idea is so good. 
But...what if it is true ? 
Nevermind, I will go and find out. I'll need to a second opinion."
Do it with your mind, not with your mouth.
An then .....
"But first thing first, I will thank him for criticizing me. 
Because out of so many humans, he indeed showed his attention on me/my work. I will thank him sincerely for taking his own time."

- If you don't like his critics and think it is bias, ask further question/proof. Get to understand why he has come to such conclusion. If you can't agree with him, just walk away and find a second opinion.
Why waste your time when it is deemed unacceptable.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, to be fairly useless... This is good stuff!!!!!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

dennis said:


> Well, to be fairly useless... This is good stuff!!!!!


But not completely useless because you just made a subjective statement!! :heh:


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Thank you guys this is great stuff, please keep it coming. I'm delighted by the feedback and want to hear more.

"Steven Chong" Wow where do I begin? You make great points that are very well thought out. I guess I will start here;



Steven_Chong said:


> Should Critiquing be Done?


Well ultimately we are posting our scapes here to be critiqued. We are here because we "want" feedback from others in order to better ourselves and our scapes. I feel like it *should* or *must* be done.



Steven_Chong said:


> First, I think we have to acknowledge that critiques cannot be purely objective. If they were, then they would be merely descriptive. The artist is just as capable of seeing the piece as the viewer, so objective information such as "3/4 of the background plants are red," is probably not that useful . . .


I agree somewhat with this. Yes we cannot be _purely_ objective. But I think we need to be somewhat objective. What are our scapes for, but to project an image of what we are going for. Some people are going for a natural feel to their tanks, some go for a very trimmed and proper-Zen garden feel. Others want to portray an image out of real life, for instance an "Iwagami" goes for a rolling hill look, perhaps the Scottish highlands? By being objective and to state the feel of what 'you' interpret from someone's tank. If I were going for an Iwagami look but I had a look of an overgrown jungle then I would want to know.



Steven_Chong said:


> What we should strive to define are how to make our critiques more useful.


That is what I'm going for 

I don't have much to say about you views on "language" or "receiving feedback" but to say these are very strong points, and I have to agree with the points made.



Steven_Chong said:


> We all have limits on our vocabulary, and our explanatory skills. We've all felt that feeling of wanting to say something, but not really knowing how to say it. Especially those without an art background, will have difficulty giving good artistic feedback. The problem is that art is not an elitist deal. Artists might be few, but the people who enjoy art and who's perception of art matters, is basically EVERYONE. Therefore, a dedicated artist should learn to listen even to people who are not so good at explaining themselves or their opinions. It's hard, deal with it.


Yes even I am guilty of bad vocabulary, and being too succinct. Hopefully through this discussion we will come out with a better understanding, and ultimately through the forum create good vocabulary. Maybe if we become better critics we might become better at receiving criticism. But I never want to become an elitist, nor do I want the hobby to become that. It comes back to the ongoing debate of whether this is a hobby or an art, or both. Ultimately we are doing our tanks for our own personal enjoyment (unless you are a professional scaper, like Amano, but I'm sure even he scapes his tanks for his enjoyment) If we become elite then enjoyment is lost and becomes a hassle, and stressfull, I don't want to go there.



Steven_Chong said:


> Ultimately, feedback is to help the artists. Artists have to learn to be good listeners and use as all feedback as best they can. The critiques on the other hand, should strive to give the a detailed and easy to understand explanation of their opinions. Remember that aritists, like all people, have their limits in understanding language too!


Amen

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Yxberia, those are all very good points. I particularly like this one



yxberia said:


> Do not critic on things that you know cannot be changed.


I like this because I see it many times. I know we *can* change just about anything in our tanks, but some things can be very difficult, for instance. "I don't really like your choice of substrate color" I know the person can go and redo the substrate but that would require a complete tear down, not impossible but a sure PITA. Something like "a light colored leaved groundcover, may go better with your white substrate" (this is just an example I picked out of the air, so just humor me)



yxberia said:


> "But first thing first, I will thank him for criticizing me.
> Because out of so many humans, he indeed showed his attention on me/my work. I will thank him sincerely for taking his own time."


This is a very good point. There are how many active members on the forum? Out of all of those people this person wrote a comment (good or bad) in order to help you. They are taking time out of their lives to write to you and your work. Even if the comment were "your tank looks like Spongebob barfed inside your tank." Not a good critique, but at least it is one and if someone does say something so ignorant (not that anyone would be *at least I hope not* lol, then maybe there *is* something wrong, and at least they are pointing that out. A really bad critique would be no critique at all. That is seeing a bad tank and just letting it stay that way.



dennis said:


> Well, to be fairly useless... This is good stuff!!!!!


Not useless at all, this is good stuff!!  keep it coming guys.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

> It comes back to the ongoing debate of whether this is a hobby or an art, or both.


Don't know if you made the connection, but you may remember me as "Greenmiddlefinger" from the art v. hobby debate. I think it got turned into my thread. >.< I recently had my username changed because I grew up a bit outta the old one.

Well, you've brought up a very interesting topic! And an important one. The critiqueing at APC aquascaping has become pretty stagnant. Apparently, it was once quite good (before my time) but now people rarely make critiques. Myself included rarely making real critiques, though I try to make them critical and accurate when I do.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

*Giving and Receiving Feedback*

To be brief, I haven't seen too many bad critiques or opinions on APC. The aim of providng feedback should be to further the poster's aquascaping skills, foster ideas, and to indicate methods to enhance the tank.

Critiques from the seasoned aquascapers, and also from the raising aquascaper can help facilitate an enhancement of an aquascape. It should be emphasized that all feedback is equally important if it is thoroughly thought out. Responders also can learn from their own opinions as they analyze different scapes. So there is a definate benefit for both the Presenter and the Evaluator.

In order to avoid giving "bad" critiques, this feedback should specify where things could be changed, or improved. If giving short responses, the response should illustrate the issue, and provide a potential solution.

People whom are receiving suggestions should visualize the suggested changes and see if they work for the aquascape and fit the framework for what they want to acheive.

I encourage everyone to continue to help others by providing your opinions. Happy aquascaping! 

-John N.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

> *Originally Posted by Tsunami*
> By definition, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then critiques of aquascapes or any other form of art is pointless.
> 
> I would like to remind everyone that the point of the aquascaping forum is to *destroy, trample,* and otherwise *mutilate* the idea that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> ...


Something dug up from the stickied threads. I'd agree that there's basically no bad critique (aside from the mind-less praise which is not a bad thing really), there's not really much good critique either. Or at least, not at the level to which Tsunami's words seem to imply should be going on.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Hopefully this will spark up better critiques. But there is that old adage; 'nobody likes a critic" People unfortunatly sometimes get offended even if you are trying to be helpfull. Perhaps if we all have a better understanding of what critiquing is and how to do it we will become better critisism takers at the same time. Ultamatly leading to bettering ourselves, this forum and the hobby. If you don't know what I'm trying to say because I'm bad at critiquing you would probbly get offended. because I may say "your tank sucks" instead of giving you the information you require to make your tank not suck. Throwing Political correctness out the window would ultamitly be wrong but i think our society is hurting itself by being "too" P.C. sometimes (at least in western culture) People may not chime in to a thread because they are afraid their comment might get misinterpreted, this may be worse then saying "your tank sucks" There is another adage; "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all." We can't have this mentallity if we are to grow. Sometimes a negative comment is better then nothing.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Right on SO MANY POINTS dude. I love you! XD ok, sorry for that.

Anyway, people just have to learn to take the criticism. Tsunami and Dennis even have it freakin' stickied at the top of the forum! Basically, if you can't stand the heat, get outta' the fire. Except that we haven't even got the stove on really.

I read a wise quote recently (from a Japanese story, so just my rough translation):

"It's easy to be humble, anyone can do it. Only an idiot who chases after real excellence, will take on the type of terrifying responsibility that comes with claiming to be the best."

A little bit different, but I think you get the point. It's much easier for people to take the safe, easy route than it is for them to try and stand up and get better.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Steven, Dennis yxberia and I, can't be the only ones with opinions. Lets hear your thoughts people  :fish2:


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## gf225 (Mar 26, 2005)

Great thread. I'm not too sure how much I can really add to what has already been said but here goes...........

I agree with everything said so far. I'm still a fairly inexperienced aquascaper, Steven knows me from my humble beginnings with my Dutch layouts. I have to say that without guys like him, and even more experienced members' critiques, my "skills" would be less, of that I am sure. Forums like this, with like-minded enthusiasts are a god-send and I can only imagine how poor my aquascapes would be without them.

I think any "serious" hobbyists/artists more than welcomes any constructive critisism. I myself had a member recently simply say about my 3 gal. iwagumi, "the rocks look kind of plastic". That was it, literally 6 words, but it was constructive and relevant and gave me a new perspective on the photo used. Other's viewpoints are very useful for that I think as we can be almost blinded to certain negative aspects of our own work.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Just some time ago I realized the purpose of aquascaping, even though I'd read about, looked at them and tried to copy them. 

What I realized was that it was an artform different from painting and photographing, but with some from both. This was made clear to me partly by Stevens Aquascaping Philosophy 101 and in the process to find a good hardscape...

I dont think im good/experienced enough to give good critique - and many here on apc dont have the art-background or expirience, witch might intimidate them on giving critique. 
But if we want critique, we must certainly start giving some also. It cant all be getting some - so i think this tread is great, since it might get some people to start giving critique.

Its hard to be pricise on what i mean, since im not so good at english.

But I dont feel i can come up with better things than already said, and whats said is something i can use from now on.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Pjerrot,

Don't feel intimidated to critique people. Everyone's opinion has value, that's what art is.

How can I illustrate this? How about:

Will Aquarium Garden Design become a famous artform because all aquarists know it?

No. It will be a famous artform when even people not in the aquarium hobby know what it is. It's the opinion and recognition of people who don't have a clue about how to aquascape, that will ultimately make it famous or not.

What I mean is, in art, people's opinions matter-- everyone's including the opinion of Amano all the way to a 6-year-old kid in Nevada who's never seen plants in an aquarium before (made up that example).

Certainly, a real artist would find your opinion on their work useful to Pjerrot.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

I think that the aquascaping forum has really helped train my eye in what to look for in designing an aquascape. When I first started planning my first tank I could not get past all of the beautiful plants. Everything looked wonderful as long as it was green, growing and not covered in algae, but when I read people's critiques I started to see how a tank could be improved. Now I am at the point where I notice a few things before I even read the critique. If only I were to the point where I could do these things in a tank! I am still learning how to grow healthy plants. Maybe in a couple of years....

Thank you APC for providing an atmosphere to encourage not only the technical enhancement of my aquarium but aesthetic enhancement, as well!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Alright! With that, I've found the motivation to screw the being-too-nice, and post my real ideas on a lot of the tank. Critique, ya-ha!


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Everyones opinion is welcome and valued. Yes it is true sometimes it is intimidating to critique someones art when you feel that your scapes don't measure up to theirs. Are my tanks anything spectacular? No absolutly not, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate good or bad art. That doesn't mean I can't forrm an educated opinion. So who am I to judge? I'm a fellow struggling artist who gennerally wants to help others be better. Do I need to be more? I don't have to be "Amano" to see someones tank needs a trimming? I do I need to be "Karen Randall" to see that there is a big void in someones tank that needs to befilled? It is really hard to make an objective opinion of _your own work_ because you put your heart and soul into it, your bound not to see the flaws that really are in it. Nobody wants to spend hours on a scape and find out it looks like one of those "pink substrate, treasure chest, wanna puke aquariums"

Critique does have a bad connotation for some reason, what we really are giving is "constructive critisism" Maybe that is what we should call it.

Nobody likes an arrogant snob, but you don't have to be one to convay what you see. Your not a snob if you form an opinion on someones aquaium. What makes a snob is the words and conotation you use.

snob (snŏb) pronunciation
n.



The Dictionary said:


> *SNOB*
> 1. One who tends to patronize, rebuff, or ignore people regarded as social inferiors and imitate, admire, or seek association with people regarded as social superiors.
> 2. One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.


You aren't ignoring people when you give them your comments. By giving advise or a critique you are helping that person essentually become better. Holding someone back and keeping them at a level, because your not giving them the information they need to exeed their current level. That would be snobbery.

But I'm starting to get off topic here. I go back again to what is good critique? It is what will help you become better. We all want to hear "nice tank!" so do I! I want to hear that too. But is that helping? That might help as much as "that is a fish tank, it has plants in it." I'm not saying don't compliment peoples tanks, that would suck. I will also admit I'm guilty of one liners myself. I'm just saying the opinion isn't the most important part. You don't even have to give an opinion, at all to make good Constructive critisism. Sometimes conveying your thoughts of someones work is all that is needed for the artist to _draw their own concluions_ if you are going for a japanese garden feel in your tank and someone says it looks natural (nature doesn't trim, or have uniformity to it) maybe the artist will take a step back and think to themselves "maybe I need a trim, and to move things around a bit"

As a chef I deal with critics every day. As much as it hurts 'inside' to hear my food doesn't taste good, ultimatly it helps me in the long run. If *nobody* said anything when the sauce tasted bad, they might just not all come back, and I would go out of buisiness. If someone steps up and points out that the sauce is bitter, everyone benefiets, because now the sauce is fixed and now everyone can enjoy a good sauce. That person could have said the sauce sucked, that wouldn't help as much as saying it were bitter. Even saying it sucked at least tells me there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

So I guess what I'm getting at is to take critisism as a compliment. It is only there to help you improve, and that giving someone critisism isn't being snobbish. giving someone critisism ultimately helps them to succeed.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

If somebody hits a tank hard with critical comments, they had better have at least 5 accomplished ideas(aquascapes) that show examples of what they are suggesting to others.

If they dont have these things, they are better off sticking to making positive comments on what they DO like about a scape. If they havent done it better, then they have no proof that they know what they are talking about and their negative comments will fall on def ears.

One has to earn the reputation to be able to effectively leave constructive negative comments.

jB


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Jason, in this case, I think you are mistaken.

Who decides what is "Right or Wrong"? A group of elites who sit around making the rules? That's not true in any art form.

Good and bad art is decided by people's judgements, but that's the judgements of all, not just the experienced. Heck, being really experienced can even make us lose sight of what looks best to those who know nothing-- which means that we've lost site of what's "valued" by a large group of people (there are more who know nothing than there are those who know a lot).

ADA seems so lost, they seem to not even understand the value of creativity anymore.

There's no "right or wrong" about opinions in that everyone is correct about what their own opinions are. The value of art is based on those judgements.



> Do I need to be more? I don't have to be "Amano" to see someones tank needs a trimming? I do I need to be "Karen Randall" to see that there is a big void in someones tank that needs to befilled?


Exactly! Here's a good example too-- I haven't seen any great scapes by Karen Randall but a lot of people seem to value her opinion anyway!


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Reputation is earned through experience and production. People respond to reputation. Most people do not take others advice unless it comes from a reputable source. Those that do soon learn that it was not a wise decision. Like it or not, this is the general rule of the game.

In true art, I belive there is not right or wrong. An personal opinion can be formed about it, but to suggest something is to take away the purity of the thought/art the is embodied by the creator.


jB


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I am not so sure I agree with you Jason. Sorry. I can't draw to save my life but i certainly am able to tell whether or not someone's representation of an apple is good or bad. If we were not allowed to give advice unless we were better that the person seeking said advice, sports trainers would be aout of a job. I personally do not think that one has to be better than me to give useful, constructive advice. It is analagous to getting a second opinion. As soon as someone points out a problem I have, I can (generally) immediately see it. We are often blind to our own situation.

No one wins and the hobby, the art loses when all we do is dance around acting politically correct. The original intent behind Tsunami and my sticky was to try and convince people that the Aquascaping Forum was a safe place to practice critique in teh context of a learning exercise that might actually help encourage the art side to our hobby. People are free to post their tank in the General Forum if they simply want to share and get kudos. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and no one will hold anything against a member who posts their tank there. Be warned though, post to the Aquacaping Forum and its possible no-one will say anything positive, even if it is very well done.

The "constructive criticism" has definately waned off lately, especially now that the older mods have become busy and stepped down. I would like to see the Aquascaping forum improve in that respect, and the best way to achieve that is to lead by example. Unfortuanately, I rarely have time for anything lately. _Anyone_ can offer their critique and I implore you, especially those of you who have posted to this thread, to offer your advice. Heck, tell yourself that you will reply with a useful critique to one thread a week adn ignore the rest unless you have the extra time to devote to the process.

Read back through the AGA contest where Amano was a judge. I think a lot of people entered just for his feedback and what did he give... some harsh comments on occasion but rarely one's that were in anyway useful, though its possible much is lost to translation. It is interesting that someone mentioned Karen Randall. She is actually one of the last people who would expect to be considered an aquascaper, IMO. Don't get me wrong, her tanks are nice and she is nice, but she will actually say she is a gardener, not an aquascaper. She judges contests and gives talks about aquascaping but because she feels it is her duty to the hobby.

Aquascaping as an art form is in its infancy and therfore, it is extreemly important that we who are active now take the initiative to try and push the art to new areas. Whether we do this through our layouts and ideas or through the promotion and critique of other's work is irrevelant. What matters is that we are trying. Every thread we post is another hit site for Google, every image increases the odds that someone will stumble onto an art form they never knew existed. What if Amano had not been a photographer first? IMO, his early work was at a very low level even compared to people who would not call themselves 'scapers today. However, his passion and dedication, his money and resources help raise awareness to the hobby and now look at the popularity of ADA and NA. The NIBT contests have been around for years but we never discuss those, ADA contest has been around for 6 and thats all we ever talk about.

At this point, any contribution to the art is an advancement or a potential area for growth. We have a great forum here at APC and in teh Aquascaping section to really build this art, to be originators in many ways. Let's start using it.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Saying someones tank sucks would be an example a bad critiqe. Being negative isn't what constructive critisism is about. It would be bad form to bash someones tank even if you are Amano himself. 

Does one have to be a chef in order to know what tastes good or bad? Do you need to be a photographer in order to comment on someones photography? 99% of people who go to an ary gallery have never put a brush to "canvas" ever, sure those peole may have made a painting is school, but thats not even close to the same thing. Does that mean these peole have no right to make a comment whether they like a painting or not? Does the artist go to an art gallery only to have his paintings to be praised and never objectified? Did Picasso get to where he was without mentors, or people telling him their opinions on his paintings? I doubt it. Picasso didn't start painting masterpeices right away, he made mistakes I'm sure, and I'm sure he had people telling him where he went wrong along the way. Its up to the artist whether to take peoples advise or not. If nothing is said, nothing is gained. Untill someone is truly a master, they cannot grow if they don't realise where they went wrong. If nobody tells them, then they will never become a master. Even Amano has people that help him out with his huge tank projects, he doesn't do it all by himself. I'm sure from time to time even the master makes a mistake or 2. Im sure when Amano made his gigantic home tank, that he asked soemone in the room "does that branch look good this way? or that way?"

The question still stands then. What is good advise or constructive critisism? I think we established saying something sucks, is bad advice. I also think we established that not saying anything at all is just as bad. I think that what I'm trying to convey is you don't even need to give a good or bad opinion, or any opinion for that matter, in order to be constructive. Just convey what you feel you get out of that persons scape. Tell them what you see an let that person draw their own conclusions. Or maybe I'm wrong. I will never claim to be the be all, end all. I am the first one to admit that my tanks aren't anything great. But if we leave it up to the experts to give constructive critisism, then who gets to comment? Only Amano? Karen Randall? Tom Barr? Jeff Senske? These are busy people, and our forum would never get responded to. Nobody would ever have the chance to grow, or find out what they are doing wrong. 

The best chefs, the best painters, the best photographers, the best of the best of any art or career, are the ones that will tell you there is still something to learn. People who tell you they are the best, and have learned or know it all, probably don't because they won't grow beyond what they allready know. 

But this is a discussion on what is good advice or constructive criticism. I'd like to know what peole think will be better for everyone. If it is not being negative, then that is what it is. If it is conveying your thoughts, then thats what it is. We want to weed out the non constructive criticism here, and only be constructive. For that we need to have a basis or guideline of what is good advice and what is bad.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

All these things play into this.....

Here is what i am saying.....

If you are going to make any negative comments about somebody's idea. Then you had better have a foot to stand on. 

I was once at a senske clinic, and somebody made a comment about his work in the audience. A bunch of us overheard it. Now, this person is very knowledgable in this hobby, but has 0 compositions to show for it. Those of us that heard it discussed it later and completely disregarded that persons remarks, and that person looked like an idiot. It didnt matter if that person was right or wrong. Maybe they were right. But in our minds, that person was not qualified to say something that negative about somebody without first proving themselves.

Bottom line....you want to be a critic? You had better be able to put your money where your mouth is.

I want to make it clear that i have no problems with ideas, comments, opinions, or thoughts. But to come out and criticize somebodies ideas without building your own reputation, you are just going to piss people off.

You have to earn the ability to tell people what is wrong and right. And you have to first earn respect in that area to be taken seriously.

jB


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Jason, I do believe that people listen to each other based on how you described. However, that doesn't make it necessarily the best.

Bottom line is this though:

As artists, if you are a guy who will only take seriously the commentary of people better than you, while I listen and seriously consider all my feedback,

*I garantee my growth as an artist will be exponentially better than yours.*

That's all.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

Steven_Chong said:


> Jason, I do believe that people listen to each other based on how you described. However, that doesn't make it necessarily the best.


I agree with that. Unfortunately there is no best way to do anything. Everyones opinion has some validity. My statement still stands.....if you want to be negative, you had better have some sort of established reputation.

Here is some critique for you....



> Hmm . . . I find this lay out to be rather dull. Plant choices, fish choices, hardscape choices and lay out are rather . . . mundane . . .


This is a bit rude and harsh coming from a guy with a limited portfolio. This person took your words lightly....and that is fine. I would suggest finding a better way to convey your thoughts without being so rude.



> I garantee my growth as an artist will be exponentially better than yours.


This was unnecessary and proves your age.

No hard feelings kid.

jB


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

That's a good discussion topic Jason-- let's take a look at that comment and see how it could be improved. Personally, I think it could have been a lot worse.

No matter how you want to change it, in my critique I wanted to carry the message that the scape is . . . well, it is not very creative, and to me, is visually boring. Art is creative, so we judge on creativity.

Perhaps the problem lies with words used? Well here are some words from Dictionary.com's thesaurus that could replace "dull":

abused, archaic, arid, big yawn*, blah, boring, colorless, common, commonplace, dead, dismal, dreary, driveling, dry, familiar, flat, hackneyed, heavy, ho hum*, hoary, humdrum*, insipid, jejune, longwinded, monotonous, oft-repeated*, ordinary, plain, pointless, prolix, prosaic, prosy, repetitious, repetitive, routine, run-of-the-mill*, senile, soporific, stale, stock, stupid, tame, tedious, tired, tiresome, trite, unimaginative, uninspiring, usual, usual thing, vapid, worn out

hmmm . . . many of these words, don't really carry the meaning I wanted and I think many would be even more offensive.

I suppose "common" or "familiar" don't carry much negative connotation, but then I did mean to have a negative connotation. We just don't want the comment to carry offense.

Perhaps,

"Your layout is lacking in creativity"

?

The point is, it is a difficult task to make messages that carry a negative connotation, but are not offensive. Rather, when, how, and why people take offense is also subjective so there's no way to "protect" yourself 100% from not offending others. It can happen accidentally.

That's why this is also a discussion about receiving feedback. That is, learning to hear the negative connotation, without taking offense. I'm certainly not offended about your critique of my language Jason, or that I have a limited portfolio.

Certainly, if I'm an artist or person assessing me, then I would also know my weaknesses. For instance, I'd agree with you that I have a weakness for controlling my temper at times, and I have a weakness for making, "childish challenges." I'm certainly not offended by you calling me on it, I'm not afraid to admit it, but I'll also say that knowing it, I've worked hard to improve myself, and I already have improved (granted, this improvement started from a very low level of base maturity so bear with me).


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Lets put it this way. Actors have the "Acadamy Awards" But who is the academy anyway? who are the judges? Unamed people who judge on something they ahve never done themselves. They may be former actors or former directors or maybe not even anything related to the content they are judging on. They are people who are self appointed experts, or appointed experts. Are they respected? of course. Are they people who think their opinion means more then anyones? most likely. But yet almost any actor/actress, director, prroducer etc. will tell you they are more proud to get a "people's choice award" As if you watch a PCA show they almost always say that. Who are the peoples choice? you and me, that know jack squat about the movie industry. But ouur opinions mean just as much, if not more then the so called experts. 

The masters of our hobby have yes, made a heck of allot of scapes in their day. As photographers have taken thousands of photo's. these people have the resources and money to draw from to make the art that they do. Some of us do not have that luxury. But a painter has to make a new painting, a photographer has to take more photo's. We have the luxury of being able to move around our scapes and to change them on the fly. It is not a insult to be critiqued, even by someone less expierienced then yourself. 

If we were to take the mentallity that nobody who isn't as good as someone else can't make a objective opinion, then where are we going to go from here?

We all know and respect Amano, and is pretty much known by all to be the leading expert in this hobby. I would think that if you were to ask him if he still had something to learn, he would probably say yes. So if he were to take the mentality to not listen to anyone who is inferior, then who the heck is he going to listen to? I highly doubt Amano sits in front of his tank laughing maniacally, telling us all to bow down to his infinite wisdom and not to listen to anyone else. Would he say?; "If I wanted your opinion, I would give it to you" :lol: People who look down on others and don't listen to what others have to say and disregard their opinions as inferior, probably have that reason why they are not at the level they could be.


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## Jason Baliban (Feb 21, 2005)

No worries Steven.....

We all have short comings.... We all like to present ourselves as correct. I suffer the same as all other.

You have shown great character in your last post and your PM, and I appologize for the bickering.

Oh, about your approach. Perhaps just suggest changes without saying the negative. Just apply the positive.

"I might have tried this.....or this....etc"

After all we are all beginners and none of us really have the right to tell anyone they are boring

Again....sorry.

jB


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I do get what you are trying to say though. It is unnecessary to be negative, being negative and being non constructive is what this discussion is trying to get people to avoid. What this is trying to establish is a basis for non biased, but yet, constructive criticism. I'm not sure on how to go about doing that. what the ultimate goal of this discussion is for everyone here to understand what is constructive, what is not constructive, and also how to be not offended by someone merely trying to help out. Even when someone isn't trying to be negative or hurt somebody, sometimes it just comes out wrong. What we are trying to do here is to make everyon eunderstand that we shouldn't be offended by peoples objective opinion, expert or not.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Jason,

The suggestion of only discussing, "What could be done" is an interesting one, and one I know I've heard before-- a critique theory common in art classes. I don't know why I haven't remembered it, but I'll just excuse myself that it's been over a year since I was in such a class.

Though I think you would still have to also say why you would suggest doing something, I think doing so would prove not very difficult and easily done withouth creating a negative connotation.

It's difficult though, when you do not know what should be done. I can say things like,

"The lay out would be more balanced if you switched the positions of the large blyxa and the anubias."

However in regards to a judgement of a tank's entire concept, this becomes more difficult.

If a scape lacks creativity, there is nothing I could suggest to provide it with creativity. The only thing that can change that is the vision of the original designer because "creativity" can only come from him.

Perhaps I could still say something such as, 

"I would appreciate a greater show of creativity, which I think you should be able to provide with greater consideration,"

??


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

That was a good read. I agree with a lot of the points mentioned above. 

I don’t really agree with the comment made about needing something to back up your critique. I can understand the frustration of some one who knows nothing about planted aquariums saying "Why is there so much green," or how come there are so many rocks and not that many fish" or a useless comment like that (I have received both from family and friends., but some one who knows the basics and observes the aquascape can give helpful advice. 

Despite that, the value of that opinion to the artist will always be based on respect. Some one who posts pictures of beautiful scapes or places high in the ADA contest will receive a better listen than someone I have never heard of, I don’t think any of us could help ourselves from doing this. I think most people will agree that the respect they have for the person giving their opinion is a key element when considering how to use it. I think everyone should be able to give his or her opinion. Sure some of it will seem off mark, rude, or unnecessary, but we all get better with practice. 

I have tried to give good critique but my experience is rather limited and I fear the wrath of people like Jason. Good critique to me explains what you see and how the scape could be improved. Negative comments have a much stronger effect on the artist but this can sometimes lead to a feeling of opposition. I nicely worded suggestion on moving a rock or noting that it’s far to uniform, are much better than “I don’t like the rockwork”. "I don’t like the rockwork" would evoke stronger emotions from me, but I think the suggestions would be accepted a lot better and more useful if they where worded with more tact and subtlety.

This is of course how I perceive the critiquing process. I am only 16 and I haven’t been at this too long but I thought I would share my opinion since you asked.


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## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

I think part of what gets us going over this idea of critique is the issue of overview versus detail vew.

Essentially there is two parts to this discussion: execution of techniques and the theme of the tank. The first is easy to discuss, we have all seen what a well grown carpet of plants looks like, or basicly what looks harmonious next to the next item in the composition.

But where it gets sticky is the reason those elements get used. Sometimes there is ambiguity. All the techniques are executed perfectly, but it would seem the tank is merely a demonstration of that ability. Sometimes it is clear, there is a inspiration photo or place that allows one to somewhat assess how well the ellements add to the feeling of that place. 



Jason Baliban brings up a valid point. To better our element use and execution the advice of those that have demonstrated ability is better than those that have not. But everyone shares an equal ability to make a critique of the overall impression or goal of the tank, the discussion of which has to include elements of the overall design, whether the person knows how to reproduce the look or not.



I got shot out of the water for stateing that there was something incongruous about a masterfully done scape a while back. I was enthralled with the ability he had to create what he did for the focal point of the tank. But the edges fizzled for me because they made the focal point look artificial. I tried to say it is amazeing, but it could be more amazeing. Half a dozen people basicly said I wasn't respecting.


Perhaps that is why I don't try to give my critique on the overall effect. People can't see the forest for all the trees. I don't claim to have technical experience nor shown any evidence of such so without popular permission to express my overall impression I don't feel I have room to give critiques.

Perhaps an explanation of the difference between perception critique (this makes me think of a... but that element distracts from that perception) and pure technique critique ( trim that plant like this... switch these two plants... remove that plant) is needed. Accept that some technique knowlege can be had by those without the skills to use them and that some element critique may have to be used to explain the overall perception critique.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I think we are glossing over the true meaning of Jason Baliban's words. This thread isn't about attacking peoples opinions, everyones opinion *IS* valid here.



Jason Baliban said:


> I want to make it clear that i have no problems with ideas, comments, opinions, or thoughts. But to come out and criticize somebodies ideas without building your own reputation, you are just going to piss people off.


Being very negative and showing lack of respect for the artist won't get you very far. If Jeff Senske, said that your glosso was a bit lacking and needed a trim, it would be a lot more respected an opinion, as if say Spongebob said it. But if Jeff came out and said someones scape "Sucked" (not that he ever would) even he would lose respect. So I think what the message is here is to be respectful, no matter what.

I think we need to get back to the main subject here.



John N. said:


> In order to avoid giving "bad" critiques, this feedback should specify where things could be changed, or improved. If giving short responses, the response should illustrate the issue, and provide a potential solution.


Exactly

Yxberia had some great points and put into point form. I think I will elaborate on that idea.

What is a good critique?

-A good critique is the one that can be a helpful guide towards improvement of the receiving party. 
- It must be objective based, the intention of the critique.
- It must be respectfull 
- It should give an overall "feeling" of the scape in question
- It should allow the artist to darw their own conclusions, to a certain degree
- It should not be overly critical. Sometimesbeing purley subjective is all that is needed to convey your thoughts
- If you are going to be critical, you should provide an explination to back up your opinion
- Sarcastic behaviors/remarks should be avoided, anywhere. Just leave them at home.
- The power of suggestion, is more powerfull then the power of dictation
- Avoid suggestions like "If this were my tank....." this isn't your tank it is someone elses art, telling someone how to make their own art isn't the function of this forum.
- Avoid stating the obvious
- Avoid commenting on things that can't be changed. For example; If someone paid allot of money to order some manzita wood, and you don't like it. They arent likely to send it back or not use it after spending all that money. Basically use some good judgement here.
- Above all don't be afraid to post. This forum is nothing without feedback. Poeple are here to learn if nothing is said, nothing is learned

How to take criticism;

- This is not a personal attack, people are generally trying to help you
- CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR
- Someone doesn't have to be Amano to see if a stem is sticking out and looks funny, or their is a void in the your scape that is very distracting.
- Take yourself out of the picture if you can. You need to put yourself in someone elses shoes here. You're bound not to see your flaws if you can't look from someone elses point of veiw
- Take peoples arrogance with a grain of salt. Starting a flame war is just bad form and could get you susspended. It just isn't worth it.
- Know that even even a poor response is better then no response at all
- More importantly don't take the low/no responses as an insult either. Everyone here is a busy person, and simply cannot respond to every single tank here.
- If you don't understand what the person is trying to convey, find out. Perhaps contact the critiqer and give feedback to their response. After all we are not all proffesionals here, if we don't know we are giving bad advise we will continue to do so untill we find out.
- If you can't seem to get things right, don't dismay. Picasso painted a tonne of paintings untill he got it right. A good photographer takes a thousand pictures and shows you 10. We are here to learn and we must keep practicing if we are to learn. So *KEEP SCAPING*

These are just my points feel free to add to them (copy paste and add to, if need be) or take some away if you don't agree with me. This forum is nothing without imput, so please lets hear more thoughts


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Jason - my post was just the thing about being intimidated to give critique, because you diddent have the "scapes" to back your opinions up. And i partly agree with you, since i dont like my mother in law to comment on my tank, suggesting i should have more red plants in the front because she likes them. But i can ignore that (i need to work on my vocabulary), since i know she dossent have anything behnd her bad critique. Thats why i dont agree with you, since i think we can overcome the bad critique comming from "nobody", and still listen to good critique.

But then its back to the question - how do i as a "new" aquascaper give good critique when i dont have much to back up my points? 

Well i could start out by asking to creator about his thoughts and ideas for what he had done. Then i would be better suited to give critique, since i could comment on the way the creator was tryied to do things. 

But i think its harder to ask about a scape, since indirectly, you could imply that you thought something was wrong, and the person would, perhaps, be somewhat defensive in his/hers answer to your question. 
Thats why it hard to give good critique i think, if you dont have much expirience. 

I personnaly think its difficould to take critique, if (in the early stages of a scape) you ask for critique, and the person thats giving good critique, (like a suggestion, with a personnaly remark on how it would be better) dont fully understands your intentions.

So perhaps the person asking for critique could do everyone a favour, if he/she writes about his/her thoughts at the same time as asking for critique.
Then we would understand the purpose of the overall design, and could then give better critique in order to stronger the purpose design in its original form - this would, i think, give much better possibilities for scapers to make innovative designs and use new methods.

I think im moving away form the Giving good critiques, advise and/or constructive criticism, but im just giving my thoughts.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Pjerrot,

Please don't stop critiquing, or trying too, just because of what one person says. I resect Jason and do not say this to criticize, but if I say yes and he says no, its up to you to decide who is correct, in your opinion.

Personally, I welcome anyone to critique my layouts, no matter how much experience they have. This forum is for learning. You're welcome to learn and practice your critiquing on my posts.

Moving on....

About taking criticism: If you are not willing to take it, don't post here. That was the original concept behind Carlos's and my thread. I am certainly not saying that people should be harsh, rude or inconsiderate but at the same time we want people to feel comfortable enough to post in the first place. Without posts, the forum stagnates and the art suffers.


Rule 1: Be honest and helpful, tell the truth but try to be diplomatic and respectful about it. 

On to giving critique.....
Much of my feels have already been expressed by Steven, TBone and yxberia. To sum up my opinion:

Rule 2: Say what you think is good and bad about a layout. We all learn from both kinds of response. Don't be afraid to point out bad things because Rule 1 tells us that the person is accepting the fact that not everyoone will like their work simply by posting in the forum. At the same time, try to explain why something is bad because both parties benefit by the depth of the thought process.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

When it comes to the giving and receiving of critique, I think we should just realize that for critique, the only parties involved are the the critic and the artist. None of the other parties matter, because the real value of a critique is for the artist.

Anyone can give a critique, at any level of skill.

It's up to the artist to judge the value of that critique, and then consider if it would make him change anything. Of course he is free to judge different levels of value to different critiques-- and indeed, that is part of an artist's skill as well. 

Of course I may value a critique by someone like Luis Navarro more than a walmart fish-store employee, but that is my decision to make as an artist.


SnakeIce-- I like your idea about different areas of critique. I g2g now but I'd like to respond to you later.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Dont worry Dennis, this tread has made me try more, and im not sure you understand what i meant by my last post. I was just talking about the things i think about when im giving critique.

What i wanted was to talk about some ways of getting around the risk of unintendedly giving bad critique. If the critic had better options (more information on the purposeses in the scape) to comment on the scape, it would be easyer to give good critique - dont you think?


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Steven, I have to disagree. There is tremendous value for the third party reading the criticism. As a novice, I find that more specific criticism is much more helpful that general statements. I want to know why you don't like something (an also why you like it )This is a forum, afterall, where we can all learn from the comments of others.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Kelley said:


> Steven, I have to disagree. There is tremendous value for the third party reading the criticism. As a novice, I find that more specific criticism is much more helpful that general statements. I want to know why you don't like something (an also why you like it )This is a forum, afterall, where we can all learn from the comments of others.


Hmm? What do you disagree on?

Let me try to make myself easier to understand:

Of course the more specific and educated critiques are better than the general and uneducated. There are different levels of value in terms of usefulness to the artist.

That said, that does not mean that the general statements are worthless, it just means they are not-as-useful.

As a listening artist, it's not your job to look as advice as useful or not useful, but rather *how useful is it?*

It might be true that the artist finds its use so small that it's not applicable.

But even in the general statements, there might be some usefulness, and an artist will be able to grow more if he is able to discern what value there is.

Ultimately, after taking in the critiques from others, he will consider his work and think if he should change it and if so, in what way. Even after receiving a very useful critique, he might consider it and then not change the piece because he has another reason that goes against the reasoning of the critique. That process of discerning the usefulness of information, and then deciding how to use it, are part of his skill as an artist. The decisions he makes based on critique are part of what will be part of the level of his work.

Remember too that people have different levels of their ability to express their thoughts. Furthermore, even highly skilled and experienced critics will struggle when they are conceiving of a thought they haven't had before or in describing something very abstract or difficult.

Therefore, dealing with language difficulties is simply a reality artists have to deal with. An artist will improve the best if he tries to get as much as he can out of his critics, who are ultimately part of his audience.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Oh, and in the picture of

Critic-->Feedback-->Artist

Third parties don't really matter. Even if person Y says X is wrong, that doesn't mean he should not consider X. Rather, what happens if 2 critics argue is that he gets feedback from both.

X: It's very well balanced. Because of (such and such reasons).

Y: No it's not, it's off because of (such and such reasons).

It's not really the artist listening to them argue and then listening to the person who "wins."

What reall matters for the artist is this:

X-->Feedback-->Artist

Y-->Feedback-->Artist

-Artist then considers the value of the feedback he received

-Artist uses the information to come up with a decision (don't change it/change it in a certain way).

-Artist implements his plan.

Therefore, it's not really a matter of third party involvement. It's more like doing the process of taking in and analyzing feedback multiple times for each piece of feedback.


Of course a third party person can learn from reading feedback, but for the artist himself, 2 people argueing is the same as gathering data from both of them.


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## Fome (Oct 29, 2006)

I agree with Jason.

But first, hello everyone. I've been lurking for a bit and am still relatively new to the hobby as a whole so you make your own judgements on how much that opinion counts. 

I've always had an eye for art and I can usually tell when things look good and when they do not but I personally wouldn't negatively critique somebody's work until I gain a LOT more experience in aquascaping. I'm still working on creating lush carpets, pearling plants, and algae free environments. Fundamentals first, eh?

Minor and obvious observations (ie. the rock should be moved more to the left to be more in line with the golden rule) can be made by anyone, sure. Calling someone's aquascape "dull", "noncreative", "uninspired", "boring", or lacking in any general and sweeping negative sense should really be reserved for the pros.

Some other points:

Art is interpreted. It looks and means different things to different people. 

Not everyone wants their work to be scrutinized by the steely eyes of an art critic. Sometimes people just want to show off the work that they're proud of. If they're not asking for staunch criticism, you probably shouldn't give it to them.

Credentials do matter! If you were looking for quotes on a new car, would you want your grandma's opinion or a mechanic's? If people don't have the experience or facts to back up an opinion, then it's nothing more than an insight.

People who are displaying a final product likely do not want to hear a drastic way in which an aquascape is lacking. Critiquing something which cannot be changed is not constructive criticism.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

> Not everyone wants their work to be scrutinized by the steely eyes of an art critic. Sometimes people just want to show off the work that they're proud of. If they're not asking for staunch criticism, you probably shouldn't give it to them.


A good general rule, but it's already been stated that as part of the goal of this forum, that such types of critic is expected to exist here. In other words, posting here makes it an open-firing season of sorts.



> Credentials do matter! If you were looking for quotes on a new car, would you want your grandma's opinion or a mechanic's? If people don't have the experience or facts to back up an opinion, then it's nothing more than an insight.


I personally didn't mean to say that credentials don't matter. They would affect the degree to which I would value the critic.

However, that does not mean that I would not value less-educated opinion of my grandmother on the view of my aquascape. I would value hers less than a pro's, but I would still consider it into my understanding of how others perceive my work.

I also still stand that it will be the opinion of the many people not in aquascaping that will make aquascaping famous or not. Therefore, does it not stand to reason that the opinions of uneducated (in aquascaping) do matter to a degree?


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## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

Steven_Chong said:


> Ah, am sorry for the near-thread-hijack dude. Anyway, I just critique you because it's so easy to see that you're capable of doing a lot. Good luck dude.


This states something I was thinking about which posted pictures get critiqued. I have noticed that it is easy to look at a tank of someone that has more things together right and give comments as to what might improve or how it strikes us. These threads are great practice for those with less experience with this type of comentary, but frequently those with experience spend the most time on these and mediocre tanks get little help.

I have done this practice of takeing only "genious apprentices" myself. Each thread we post comments about the tanks design gives them access to the teacher that is each of us.

I would like to begin to give usefull comment to some that do not have crowds already giveing advice. I have a wishfull thought on all of this that there would be a mentoring system where each person that wanted could have the consistent attention of a few people.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Well, to be honest . . . with a lot of tanks I wouldn't know what to say, where to begin you know? It's like, you can't tell a toddler how to ride a bike when they haven't even walked yet. For a lot of "beginner scapes" I'd probably say something like, 

"You should focus more on a strong mid-ground than on fore or back grounds. Set up a strong, visually interesting foundation." and some other basic things.

There are so many tanks like that it just feels tedious saying it again and again for something that the person will probably figure out on their own . . .

Though I guess it's irrational, I just feel uncomfortable sometimes telling people to "follow the golden ratio, use stones in odd numbers" etc.

I feel even more uncomfortable with something like telling an obvious beginner who just spent 9 bucks on a piece of malaysian wood that "It's too much of a hunk, it does not have visual interest." It's something he'll figure out on his own if he keeps hanging around here, and then he can decide if he wants to spend more on improving his scaping. Though I guess at some point "To create without limits or restrictions, unbridled creative art," one would need substantial funds . . .

They don't need to be geniuses, but certainly a lot more can be done or noticed or said after a certain threshold of skill is reached, and a certain level of dedication is shown.


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## Aaron (Feb 12, 2004)

Okay, I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but I just can't help it...
my .02...


regarding the credentials/ walking the walk/ only bad ass aquascapers have a right to criticize... That's just sad. All those who think this way needs to reread that story from our childhood "The emperor's new clothes" 

A spade is a spade, algae is algae, and an ugly scape is an ugly scape. In many cases, it doesnt take a genius or an expert to recognize these things.


Regarding critiquing, I think the issue is not how to give a critique, (good, bad... that part is irrelevant... they are merely opinions) the issue here is how to take criticism. It's been my experience here that taking criticism is the hardest thing for people to learn. (evident in this forum as of late) 

One must seperate themselves from their work and allow discourse to occur. This does not happen when ones own feelings get in the way and filter perceived "negativity".


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## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

I am in the middle of moveing to another state (internet disconecting today) so I will have to get back to this at a later date.

I will say this, sometimes critique involves getting to know what the person that is dissatisfied with their crappy peice knows how to do or giveing them ideas for other "paints" or plants that would work better for what they want to do. not all are at the point of dealing with the design. This is the basis of my wish at the end of my last post.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

I find it odd that some people are getting offended when it isn't even their aquarium in question. For a made up example; Joe defends Mary's scape from Bob's comments. Bob states that there are signs of nutrient deficiency. Then Joe pipes up and gets angry at Bob for his critique.

What is this accomplishing? I don't really understand the fuss over this. Allot of people are getting offended, even when they themselves aren't even being critiqued. *The purpose of the aquascaping sub forum is to critique the aquascapes posted here, for the benefeit of the scaper*.It has been stated in the sticky and even in this discussion. _If you don't want to be scrutinized dont post your tank in the aquascaping forum_ post it in general.

Perhaps we need to clarify things a bit. Maybe the aquascaping forum should be tiered. One tier would be for showcasing your tank. The second teir would be to post your tank for critique

__ Showcase​Aquascaping ______________________________
__ Open for Critique​
Or we could adopt the "deviant art" approach to art When you post your "art" They have 4 options for other people to leave comments.

1: "Encourage advanced critique" Leaving your art open to anything at all anyone wants to say. Good, bad, or ugly, you asked for it.

2 "Allow comments" This allows some negative feedback but keeps it from a full on assault.

3: "Discourage critisism" Pretty self explanitory

4: "disable comments" Well this wouldn't be usefull to us. But you get the picture.


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## T-Bone (Nov 23, 2005)

Whoah I got stickied!!!!:faint2: :shock: \\/


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

*Ah! What a nice filling read!*

I think T-bone this a great thread.
Kudos to all who has brought up valid thoughts.

I think spelling out the rules of this aquascaping thread is very good. Everybody then knows the rules so they can play by them.

Experts should know to be kind to newbies with more encouraging words.
Newbies should read more.

I agree you Jason.
Words of experience is indeed more valuable.
A person who has achieved 5 tanks of high quality would have gone thru 50 at least. They would at least understand aquascaping principles and understand the difficulty and patience needed to achieve it.
[unless you are wunderkind and there are many here!]

Constructive criticism is good. It suggests a better option and why it is.


> The rocks are perhaps too uniformed and same sized. Try to get different sized ones. It will look more natural, just take a good look in your local stream/beach


.
I think if someone said this to me I would be very receptive to the idea that i may have been too bold to go with only same sized rocks.

In my mind, I'd love to see this guy's tank. His must be fantastic.
If his tank is only average and I'd really be doubting if i should listen to him, but since his idea was well presented, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

Having seen hundreds with excellent theory but not having done any nice tanks worthy of emulation does makes your opinion seems less valuable but despite your comment being a great one. Presenting the idea well maybe half the battle won. It shows the comment was thoughtful without any hint of malice and genuinely trying to help. In anycase, most of fellow forumers would quickly chime in to validate that opinion anyway.

I think the more comments the more overall the opinion becomes and the more weight the opinion has. The creator then can decide easily what he should do to improve in the eyes of his fellow forumers. The ADA judging has 19 judges from different corners of the world precisely to get differing tastes and opinions to come together to get the top 100 sorted out.

I think every comment anybody makes is trying to make somebody see his point of view. So that person has to be respectful and avoid using general negative remarks. 
I was told that not everybody was into competitions like me and they were happy with their not so great, algae here and there tank. What gave them that idea? lol. They posted their tank up and I tell them perhaps you should move the large Echinodorus to the back as it was blocking the view and light from your glosso. There was also quite a bit of BGA and spot algae in the front so perhaps a mini spring cleaning and it will look great? He was upset and said so months later. lol.

I think everybody can see a great tank. 
It's the bad ones that are difficult.
Some tanks are so newbie it get's difficult to even begin commenting other than 'you should plant denser', 'perhaps more foreground plants like ...' or 'move the rock two cm to the left!'

Lastly, although I wont discount what my 72yr old mom says. I just apply filters to what she says because I know what her intentions are. [why so dark? feng shui bad, Chinese new year coming! lol]

Cheers and peace!


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## standoyo (Aug 25, 2005)

Steven_Chong said:


> Well, to be honest . . . with a lot of tanks I wouldn't know what to say, where to begin you know? It's like, you can't tell a toddler how to ride a bike when they haven't even walked yet. For a lot of "beginner scapes" I'd probably say something like,
> 
> "You should focus more on a strong mid-ground than on fore or back grounds. Set up a strong, visually interesting foundation." and some other basic things.
> 
> ...


Exactly!


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

I'll get my word in very, very late. It's been a while since I spent much time here.

To provide useful comment or critique the critic needs to understand and respond to the aquascaper's goals. When someone is building an Iwagumi layout, people should not tell him to get driftwood; if he's working on a Dutch tank, it is useless to comment on the lack of hardscape; if the goal is a low-maintenance layout, then critics should not suggest high-maintenance alternatives. That means that when someone posts a picture and asks for comments they should make their goals very clear. If their goal isn't clear then the first question should be "What is your goal?"

Critique also needs some sort of honest and consistent standard. In the interest of being positive people are constantly commenting "That's awesome!" or "That's looks great!" Those lines get repeated over and over, even when the aquascape in question struggles to mediocrity. Being positive is great, but being uniformly positive in the face of obvious problems makes it impossible to compliment a layout and have the comment taken seriously.

Critique does not require credentials. Anyone and everyone who looks at an aquarium (or a sculpture or a painting ...) is qualified to say if they like it or if they don't, and that is fundamental information for the aquascaper. *Good* critique on the other hand needs to go deeper and requires more than an opinion. Critique can come from anywhere. Ultimately it is up to the aquascaper to decide how to respond to critique. We ignore it at our own risk.

Also, credentials as an aquascaper don't qualify anyone as a good critic. Over and over I've seen good aquascapers deliver critiques that are not substantive. Often they are nothing but subjective contrasts to their own work and their own styles. Those comments are usually not useful to the aquascaper who is getting critiqued and probably are only useful to a third-party reader if that reader happens to share the critic's goals.

If we all got to choose our own critics then we would all reach a point where further critique is useless. It is the fresh look from the new critic that makes things change. A seemingly rude, naive comment to someone who has become complacent in their own success may improve their work. But only if they're listening.


Roger Miller


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Welcome back Roger!


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

> There are so many tanks like that it just feels tedious saying it again and again for something that the person will probably figure out on their own . . .
> 
> Though I guess it's irrational, I just feel uncomfortable sometimes telling people to "follow the golden ratio, use stones in odd numbers" etc.


I agree with everything you said in this thread except for this.
I havn't been around aquascaping very long. I havn't made my "5 awesome tanks" yet; in fact, I havn't even made a bad one. However, my mother is a respected cello teacher, my father repairs them, I play violin. I now repair and sell violins, cellos, etc following in my father's footsteps, so I will speak in terms of an art for with which I am familiar.

I'll tell you that everyone needs criticism, but advice is especially crucial at the beginning stages. Shipping someone a package of plants to put in their Walmart tank and expecting them to magically figure out where to put them in an artistic manner is equivalent to me shipping you a violin and and pictures of me holding it correctly and then expecting you to send me a CD of you playing Mozart sonatas.

When I started playing violin, I struggled to hold the violin and the bow at the same time. My teacher, my parents, and others in the violin studio constantly had to remind me to keep my elbow in the right place, or put my pinky finger where it belonged on the bow. I had heard all the advice before, but I forgot because I was thinking about so many other things I was also trying to learn.
During this time in my career, my teacher gave me advice which was much below her skill level. Conversely, I participated in group lessons which had a buddy system where someone barely better than myself reminded me of the fundamentals, often while they were in the very act of violating the rule themselves.

Now I'm grown up, married, work has taken over lesson time, I must self direct my learning. This is not for the best, as I lack the advice of an acomplished violinist. However, I can pick out new pieces and learn them well, as I have already created the base to work from. Yes, my mother still reminds me of things at times. At times, she'll remind me that I'm holding my bow incorrectly.  Yes, the very first thing I worked on still slips my mind ocassionally. Whats worse, someone that doesn't even play violin is in charge of reminding me.
(I don't discount her advice though the instrument she plays requires a different technique, by the way.)  
On a similar note, my mother recently had a student graduate from her studio and progress to a university on the east coast. At the age of 18 he was already much better than her, but he took her advice readily, and continues to do so. After all, he became that good while riding on the advice she gave him. She has had other good studens, but what set this one apart was his willingness to take advice from any and all. He is a very humble cello player, in an industry that is at least as cut-throated and stuck up as the physical art genre.

When I'm finished experimenting with the basics and ready to make my first real aquascape, I'm sure I'll forget something very basic, or it will be "boring." Its not because I'm an ignoramous, or because I'm too lazy to create my own style.

You may notice that my first tank will lack originality and blend in with all the other first tanks. Many first tanks on this board lack creativity because I read everywhere "This tank was an inspiration for me to create X tank." I believe this is a good thing. It builds fundamentals. When I became more advanced and started playing more advanced songs on my violin, my teacher would find a CD of someone famous playing it. I would be required to analize his interpratation of the song, and mimic it. Then, after I had learned the piece that way, I was free to find a CD of someone else famous and mimic them, or else find my own interpretation of the piece. In this manner, I learned what certain styles were supposed to sound like. I knew to play a song from the classical period differently from a song written in the Baroque period.

Because of this perceived lack of originality, I really appreciate the comment someone said about having the aquascaper mention their feelings or what culminated the aquascape. Too frequently an aquascape lacks any artist's commentary further than the title, or worse yet the tank is entitled _My 10g tank_. For all we know, the intent of the artist was to just stick plants in a CO2 rich tank and then sell the trimmings on eBay.
However, just because there are 150 other threads that mention the golden ratio doesn't necessarily mean that those posts will be of upmost importance to the artist. Maybe the golden ratio isn't being followed because the up-and-coming artist values creativity over form and they just need a little help realizing their potential in one or both of those categories.
A description of what the artist was feeling at the time can get them out of "hot water" comments about the golden ratio or four rocks where there should be five. If the artist tells a story about standing with his toes on the edge of the grand canyon and titles his aquascape _Teetering Precipice_ its understandable that his focal ratio would be 6:1 on a bare rock at the side of his tank instead of the usual 1:1.6 on a nice crypt just right of the middle.
Thats his perogative, but he better back it up somehow. A good critique begins with self critique, even if it only goes as far as stating the objective of the tank. I am already creating an objective for my first aquarium, but I'm sure I'll need help realizing that objective as I progress.

You may also notice that my first tank contains four rocks sitting side by side, instead of the more natural asymetry. Yes, this may be because I'm dumb as the four rocks in my tank. It may also be because I was carefully thinking about where to place my reds within the golden ratio.

I would encourage you to mention the basics. If they're really basic, it won't take much time and analyzation as you prepare to mention them. In this manner, you will progress as a teacher, and they will progress more quickly as an aquascaper.


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