# Breeding fish, how important are pH and hardness?



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm curious. How important is getting the pH and hardness of the water to match the recommended breeding ranges for different fish species? I've been trying to breed Pelvicachromis taeniatus (Nigerian reds) for years now, they don't seem to breed vigorously. Similarly, my angels and apistos keep laying eggs every few weeks or months and then eat them. I am beginning to think that my well water with pH 7.6 and calcium hardness of 4 degrees are reducing the breeding ability of my fish. I am not sure what my total GH is, but my calcium level is 4 degrees (my Gh test kit went bad). 

I am thinking of getting an RO + DI system to do water changes with, but I'm not totally sure how much this will help. I'd like to know your thoughts before dropping 150-200 bucks.


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

Everything I've read says you need soft water and in some cases acidic water for apistos. I haven't been able to find much info on p. taeniatus, especially the differences between the different varieties.

As for apistos, hard water can prevent the eggs from developing correctly. You could try to take the eggs and hatch them without the parents and see if you have any better luck before you get the RO unit, but I imagine you will have to go RO to have much success.

I'm working on the same thing and I've recently bought an RO unit after many unhatched eggs.


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Your tank water (not tap water) is always that high? Usually driftwood and plants will strip down those levels and make a much more acidic condition in the tank. If there is a tank that stays low in pH and does not have issues with nitrates you can always try using aged water to raise the fry once you get them. Or the issue is getting fry?
If you so small water changes more frequently, the higher pH shouldn't upset the tank values too much. At least in my experience. Considering the angels are have are not close to wild they should breed in whatever tho I admit to never keeping angels.
The Pelvics may be closer to wild and thus have some issues with the water not being RODI. They're breeding and you're not getting anything? And this is outside of any intraspecific aggression?


----------



## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

You know, I've found that you can get apistos to show spawning behavior and even lay eggs long before they're viable. You can pump them up on live foods, alter the temp and change the hardness from nasty to not quite so nasty, and they'll spawn. For some this means a KH of up around 8, for others it won't show until 1 or 2 KH. The hatch rates will be crap though. For this reason, people sometimes set up removable breeding caves so that they can swipe the eggs and hatch them out in a 0KH solution with a touch of H2O2 and essential trace.

If you want a man to talk to, ask David Soars (apistodave) he's the biggest name you can get on the subject without bugging Uwe Romer over in germany. He breeds and sells apistos over on aquabid (not right now, I think he's shut down for the winter or something) and he knows what he's doing. First though, I'd head over to thekrib for their apistos section; tons of spawning notes. Some of the methods are pretty brutal though. Phosphoric acid anyone?

Anyhow, focus on the KH first; the lower that goes, the better your hatch rate. Spawning should come in right along side things. I've found simpler apistos don't mind a KH around 3.


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

Apistodave is one of the lucky ones who lives in a soft water area. He even runs his soft water through an RO unit as referenced on his web page:

http://apistogrammaidiots.com/David_P__Soares/Articles/articles.html

I doubt the water parameters in that article are absolutely necessary to breed all apistos, but Dave is obviously very successful.

I've kept a few apistos for about 2 years now. I'm just getting serious about breeding them and that is why I bought the RO unit. I've had many apisto eggs (a. cacatuoides and a. borrellii), but never a hatch in my hard tap water.

I've had pelvicachromis taeniatus 'moliwe' since august and they are on their 3rd spawn. I have about 50 to 60 fry of various ages. They bred successfully in hard tap water (kH 8 ).

I've been doing water changes with RO water for a couple months now. My p. taeniatus 'lobe' finally had some success. I found 2 free swimmers with the parents. Not much, but its a start.

I just got some p. taeniatus 'nigerian red' and they just got out of the quarantine tank. We'll see how they do. They are in soft water (TDS about 130).

BTW, I bought a TDS meter recently. It is much easier if you have several tanks and many apisto breeders don't reference kH and gH as much as TDS and conductivity.

There is a nice dwarf cichlid forum with lots of info and some real experts (including apistodave at times) at:

http://www.apistogramma.com

Good luck and let us know what you do and what works for you.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

geek - when you breed the pevies what conditioning do you give them before they lay eggs? I've tried changing water at various intervals, feeding them with good food, warming and cooling water and they usually don't respond. Which is odd, because they used to spawn in my old tank that had softer water. They just seem to be generally not interested in laying anymore, not sure why other then possibly the water pH and hardness...

I think I'll buckle and buy an RO + DI system.

Also, are all TDS meters the same? I'd like to just buy one of the cheap ones on ebay for less then 20$ rather then buy an extremely expensive one, unless of course there is a significant reason why the more expensive ones are better?


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

I would like to say I had a great plan to get them to breed, but I really just got lucky and got a good pair.

I have them in an 80 gallon NPT that is divided into 4 sections. They are in a very shaded section with a lot of star grass and duckweed floating on top. Just the pair in that section. I gave them a cave and they did the rest. I feed flakes, with occasional frozen blood worms and cichlid pellets. I got them in August and they started breeding right away and have laid more eggs when the fry get a little independent in the tank. They are raising their 3rd group now and each time they have laid eggs they have raised some fry.

I think the variety of p. taeniatus makes a difference. I got a pair of 'lobe' on the same day as the 'moliwe'. The 'lobe' laid eggs while in the quarantine tank, but they didn't hatch. They were moved to the same 80 gallon, one section over from the breeding 'moliwe's', but until now have not laid eggs or showed much interest in breeding. I'm actually wondering if they adopted a couple of fry from the moliwes next door (there are slits in the dividers and the fry can go through) because they showed no signs of breeding. I just saw a couple free swimmers with them a couple days ago, but now they are gone. The pair gets along with each other well.

I also have a pair of apisto cacatuoides in the same 80 gallon in a different section. They have laid eggs at least 3 times with no successful hatch. So I'm doing water changes with RO to try to lower the hardness. I also have 4 more 30 gallon tanks set up and cycling. I'll probably move the apistos to one of those tanks to see if I have more luck.


----------



## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

As for TDS meters, I have a cheap one, less than $20.

I'm not sure what a more expensive one would do. Mine works and gives me reproducible and expected numbers. It shows my RO water as less than 10 TDS.


----------

