# Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoeanum'



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I got a plant many moons ago from two different people which I thought was Sao Paulo. The last time I trimmed and sold the plant I was contacted by two very "in the know" people telling me that they thought I had Kawagoneum NOT Sao Paulo. It grows up but if I trim it, it will branch out. It has the red/pink color only on the top leaves, which are nearest to the light. 
Here is a px of what I have:









Does anyone have a px of a true Sao Paulo? It's supposed to be magenta all the way down the stem. I would love to see them side by side so that I can see the differences. I need a px where the differences are glaring.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

If you sent me what is in the picture, it is "Sao Paulo." Mine is red/magenta all the way through.

Tell me if this make you jealous:


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Your tanks/plants are so beautiful you don't have to have an exact ID

Lol but from the pictures I've seen, Kawagoeanum has 2 leaves coming out from the same node, and Sao Paulo has one leaf slight higher than the other leaf.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

These two plants are frequently confused, but they are _very_ different. 'Sao Paulo' always grows in a strictly vertical fashion and not in the spreading manner of the plant pictured here. In addition, its newest leaves curve downward. Its color is a stronger magenta that is usually seen all the way up and down the stem. There's more to it than that of course, but those properties are more than sufficient for differentiation.

Good pics of both are in the Plant Finder.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ails.php?id=243&category=genus&spec=Polygonum
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ails.php?id=239&category=genus&spec=Polygonum


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Thanks Zoo. I hate to be selling a plant mislabeled. I do love the plant.

Don - it's FABULOUS!! Your tank is so huge you have plenty of room for your "BRILLIANT SUN" to penetrate to the substrate. Did I send that to you? I only have one kind. (OK, I'm gonna up my light when my rescape is done....cross your fingers for me!)

I'd like to see the difference in the two plants. My google search turned up a different growth pattern with one leaves growing down from where they sprout out at the top. The other (what I have and what Don has px'd) has the new sprouts and leaves growing up.

Sure wish I could see them side by side in the tank. I hope to get a piece of Sao Paulo (truly ID'd) from someone soon. It's emersed, but will change over. Then I can see the difference side by side!.


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## Coralite (Nov 29, 2008)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

My Sao Paulo grows phone pole straight, even with the side branches. Here is a pic of it not at it's most purple but you get the idea.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Just found this on the net. I added the words which were in the description underneath. I just superimposed them onto the photo.









Coralite I see the straight growth and the turned down leaf. But if I look at Don's and yours they are so similar. Sure wish I could put them side by side!!


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I think yours is "overgrown" and "just a tad underlit" Poly Sao Paulo. It is a glutton for iron, phosphorus, and I do not plant any more than two stems together. It needs appreciable room to grow. And super-light! Nitrogen tends to pale the color to yellow or green. I would guess that you dose nitrogen with some regularity from the looks of the Sao Paulo you have? CUT IT OUT and STOP IT!


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Don - what do you think about the last px I just posted?


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I think it looks great!

How do you mean? Do you mean "do you think I have Sao Paulo or Kawa.?" I am pretty sure you and I both have Sao Paulo........


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

After I send some to Tex Gal, she can send some to you. You'll see what I mean then.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

You are a good man Cavan Allen!!!  The mystery will be solved!

Don - your camera must have an overstaurated setting! It just has too.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Pretty sure that is what it looks like in person....if not more purple-red then the brick red.....but the growth pattern is more Sao Paulo than it is Kawagoneum.

Regardless, Cavan's right. The only way to tell is to grow some out next to it for comparison. Now that I think of it, I believe that I got the Sao Paulo from Riley and not from you. It is getting late, and my eyes are going........to sleepy!


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## Coralite (Nov 29, 2008)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*



DonaldmBoyer said:


> I think yours is "overgrown" and "just a tad underlit" Poly Sao Paulo. I would guess that you dose nitrogen with some regularity from the looks of the Sao Paulo you have? CUT IT OUT and STOP IT!


You are absolutely right! It is overgrown but it sits right under a 250 DE ADA halide so it gets plenty of light. I am in the process of cutting back my nitrogen dosing because it has considerably paled many of my red plants. Here is a pic of a single stem of Sao Paulo I keep in a more low tech and infrequently dosed tank. My low tech gets considerably better colors but the growth rate is very slow, which is fine cause it's a small tank.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Coralite - Don was yelling at me. It's a running joke between us about the reds... He thinks I should turn my lights up and my KNO3 down.... I'm tempted.... but don't want to hurt my L. Guinea and others.


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## imeridian (Jan 17, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Tex Gal, I'm glad you asked about this. I have both types, at least allegedly. This thread has given me cause to more closely examine the differences. Provided mine were labeled correctly I would also say that you have Kawagoneum. I'd hardly consider myself to be an authority on the topic though.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Now, now....I don't yell. I goof around! 

Regardless, I am still pretty sure that you have Sao Paulo. The side shoots are confusing the ID, as well as the regular additions of KNO3. If you can take a close up pic of one stem, I believe that we could all answer this issue conclusively. The color of the stems/leaves at the top is too close for it to not be Sao Paulo, as I had Sao Paulo do that exact type of growth and coloration for me in the past. The growth of yours is vertical; you just have a ton of side shoots. The leaf pattern also appears to be Sao Paulo (look closer to the top of the stems), and the leaf coloration is more "purple-red" then just "red" like Kawagoneum gets. The leaves also appear do not appear to droop at the top; they only appear to at first glance due to the prolific abundance of side shoots. If you trimmed this plant, removed the side shoots (and sold them), got rid of the floaters directly above it, and cut your KNO3 (don't worry....I know it'll never happen), you would see this plant look more like mine and Coralite's.

Either it is true Sao Paulo in a less than optimal state (no offense, TexGal!!!), or it is a hybrid. I hate to go against the grain of Cavan and others on this thread. If you can get a closer shot of one stem, especially if you can get a shot of the apex, then we would all know for sure. Until then, I am 99% sure it is Sao Paulo!

As a quick aside: I did not get Sao Paulo from you, Tex. Our first shipment was "flukey," and I didn't get it before everything inside was dead (NOTE TO PUBLIC: THIS WAS A UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE PROBLEM AND NOT TEXGAL'S FAULT!!!!), and the re-try did not include any Sao Paulo which means that I got my Sao Paulo from a different person. In fact, it is very likely that it is mine that I gave to this person, who gave it back to me when I set up my new tank. Sorry about the confusion; I never claimed that I did not have idiotic tendencies!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Probably the wrong place to ask, but does anyone want to sell me some of each? 

Preferably someone with both plants to save on shipping??


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I wish I could, Zapins! It is too cold right now to ship; also, I ONLY HAVE SAO PAULO! 

Cavan--You should just send the Kawagoneum to me; Tex will end up making the Sao Paulo and Kawagoneum look the same!  HA!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Hehe. Its ok to ship in this weather. I've gotten 4 plant packages recently and they were ok.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Dude, trust me, you don't have Sao Paulo. Look at the PF again. Those were my plants. Let's not obfuscate the issue here. The difference is like night and day, and my guess is that you've never had the real stuff (no offense!). You'll see eventually.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

AHHHH!!!!!!!! I am getting frustrated!

I trust you know more than I trust myself on this, Cavan, so I will have to give you your due props, and say that I am mistaken after all. I spent the past half hour going back and forth between this post's pics, my tank, and PF. This was a tricky one for me. Your photos in PF reveal differences that are not quite so apparent in mine.

My Kawagoneum is not prone to losing it's bottom leaves and is a brilliant red throughout with the exception of the bottom two inches which are more of an orange-brown-green color. Whereas I do not notice much difference between the two apexes, I will say that mine is not "pole-straight" as I see in Coralite's. There is branching of side shoots, though this happens closer to the bottom of the stem. What cued me was this branching, as it grows at an angle before turning vertical. Odd that my Kawagoneum grows almost straight, but certainly not pole straight.

How aggravating!  Mine, at first glance, looks similiar to Tex's but there are striking differences (IMO) between her growth pattern and coloration and mine.

Thanks for the education Cavan and Coralite. I didn't mean to be so obstinate! Why do you think mine looks so different from TexGal's, Cavan? Or your photo in PF, for that matter? Is it simply a matter of differences in lighting and ferts? Would you think that a lack of nitrogen has a lot to do with this?


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Just for Don... These are all pxs. of the same stem.









The crown


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I feel priviledged!  Yeah, it's Kawagoneum, like mine. Not "Pole-Straight" like Coralite's. D'oh! I got way-layed already by Cavan already.

I can make one promise: I'll never screw THAT up again!  My world was turned upside-down when I learned that I was wrong. Thank God that Cavan uses his powers for Good, and not Evil like me. Which is strange since he is a svelte cat-burglar.


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Don and Tex the pictures on page 1 are NOT Poly S, but Poly K.

What is causing most of the confusion with idenfying the plant is that they have deformed leaves (please don't take this the wrong way, I too have difficulties grownt the leaves nicely).

I'll take nice pic of both plants side by side which both has fairly good leaf growth so that you can see the differencies.

For now here's some old pics of my Sao Paulo. Note the color, length and shape of the leaves. Poly K's get more of a Pink Red while Sao Paulo is more purple'ish


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Mrkookm- tell me more about the deformity. Are you talking about the ripple in the leaf? What do you think is the cause?


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

OK!!! I GET IT!!! I SUCK!! 

I do think part of the problem was the slight crinkle of the leaves on Drinda's; but I should have looked at the "big picture" and noted the differences in the overall slightly angled growth pattern, especially on the side shoots.

Some of us learn at a slower rate than others, huh?


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*



> but I should have looked at the "big picture" and noted the differences in the overall slightly angled growth pattern, especially on the side shoots.


Indeed... another big difference between the 2.


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*



> Mrkookm- tell me more about the deformity. Are you talking about the ripple in the leaf? What do you think is the cause?


Ripple & cupping. In my tank a little more Ca over 20ppm and Co2 got mine up to speed nice and flat. Poly S does well with more N try to limit N in the WC will result in poor growth (downward 45º angle) AS users will do well as long as all other paramerters is up to speed.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I do wonder about my Ca. Maybe I should add Equilibrium at water changes? I know I have minerals in my water because when my water dries on my glass I have hard water spots. My tap test GH7 and KH3. The AS brings it down to KH3 GH <1

I dose KNO3 but have had a huge plant mass and didn't up my dosage. I have a ton of nutrient hogging plants in there. I guess it's possible that the nitrogen is getting used up. I'll have to test. I have AS. I sure wish I lived close you one of you guys that can look at a tank and know what's out of kilter.... I'm doing ok in my ignorant bliss but I wish I could get this down a little better.


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*



> I do wonder about my Ca. Maybe I should add Equilibrium at water changes? I know I have minerals in my water because when my water dries on my glass I have hard water spots. My tap test GH7 and KH3. The AS brings it down to KH3 GH <1
> 
> I dose KNO3 but have had a huge plant mass and didn't up my dosage. I have a ton of nutrient hogging plants in there. I guess it's possible that the nitrogen is getting used up. I'll have to test. I have AS. I sure wish I lived close you one of you guys that can look at a tank and know what's out of kilter.... I'm doing ok in my ignorant bliss but I wish I could get this down a little better.


Your GH is <1? I know AS lowers KH, but I'm not sure what kind of science goes on for it to lower you GH to <1, so I would suggest to add a source of Mg/Ca. You dont need EQ really, if you already have Ca and K all you need is the Epson salts. Aim for minimum 14.28ppm or up to 32.14 from Ca, about 2~6.5ppm Mg and K= whatever makes you happy. Up Co2 and try Pantanals again


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## imeridian (Jan 17, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Will either of the plants in question lose their submerged leaves if allowed to break the surface and grow?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

No, they will keep their submerged leaves. The 'Kawagoeanum' will often develop some cool chevron-shaped markings on the emersed leaves.


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## Coralite (Nov 29, 2008)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*



imeridian said:


> Will either of the plants in question lose their submerged leaves if allowed to break the surface and grow?


Although the Sao Paulo keeps its submerged leaves when it breaks the surface, I have found that when it breaks the surface it also puts out a lot of unsightly roots so I dont let it break the surface anymore.


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## imeridian (Jan 17, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Thanks to both of you.


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

OK so I finally got around to snap some pics of the 2. These are in a low light setup and the reason why it's lacking in color, but you should be able to tell the differences even though they are not growing as nicely as I would like them to.

Take a close look at the leaf length of the old growth, the shape of the new baby leaves, the color is hard to tell but you should see the difference in shade between the 2 (Poly K leaves will be grass green & Poly S is always a dull olive green) and lastly the overall size (under the same fert routine the Poly K will appear larger due to the leaf length).


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I have both growing side by side in m 180g tank. Once they're happy again (algae issues), I'll be happy to send some of each to whoever wants them. From my experience, kawagoneum is much "weedier" and tends to send up a large number of side-branches at an angle. 'Sao Paulo' is much darker in coloration and grows strictly straight up. They're both fabulous but I'm actually preferring kawagoneum at the moment. It responds to regular pruning methods better. With 'Sao Paulo' I've had the best luck from uprooting and replanting the tops.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I call dibs!


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

I like the kawagoeanum because it's so easy to just selectively trim out stems that have gotten out of hand without hacking back the whole mass.

I've begun preliminary ID work on it, but that will be a while.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*

Well, I just received 2 stems of 'Sao Paulo'. I see the difference now. I could not believe that a plant could get more intense than what I had. I do now. The 'Sao Paulo' had dark pink/ magenta leaves and they are larger than the 'Sao Paulo'. It is pole straight. Maybe I can get Tex Guy to take some pxs like MrKookm did. Now that I have the other plant I can see in MrKookm's px which is which. Before I was hard pressed to tell any real difference.

I gotta say that you guys are AMAZING to tell the plants apart from our pxs like you do. You all are nothing short of incredible. I appreciate you guys TONS! THANKS!!

BTW added MG to my tank. All my Kawagoneium leaves looks straight, no crinkling or ruffling at all. I am added some extra KNO3 as well. Things are thriving. Not sure what Ca source I should use..


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## mrkookm (Oct 25, 2006)

*Re: Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' VS 'Kawagoneum'*



> Well, I just received 2 stems of 'Sao Paulo'. I see the difference now. I could not believe that a plant could get more intense than what I had. I do now. The 'Sao Paulo' had dark pink/ magenta leaves and they are larger than the 'Sao Paulo'. It is pole straight. Maybe I can get Tex Guy to take some pxs like MrKookm did. Now that I have the other plant I can see in MrKookm's px which is which. Before I was hard pressed to tell any real difference.


I'm happy you're seeing things clearer now  I prefer the Sao Paulo because of it's vivid color when grown to it's full potential and there's also something a little more exoctic about it too.



> BTW added MG to my tank. All my Kawagoneium leaves looks straight, no crinkling or ruffling at all. I am added some extra KNO3 as well. Things are thriving. Not sure what Ca source I should use..


Good to hear things are looking better over there! Regarding the Ca source I suggest CaSO4 since you'll be bumping up your Ca levels up by 2GH or more.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I posted some Kawagoeanum for sale just now. If you're really interested in having both, I could spare a stem of 'Sao Paulo' too.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

BryceM said:


> I posted some Kawagoeanum for sale just now. If you're really interested in having both, I could spare a stem of 'Sao Paulo' too.


Thanks so much. I was able to get some from Coralite when he was here. (Thanks Jake! )


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## CobraGuppy (Jun 16, 2008)

Does Polygonum Kawagoeanum need c02 to survive? Or will it do fine without it, but just have a little less color?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ah funny that CobraGuppy asked about CO2.

Just today I serviced a tank in which I had put some of this Polygonum. Someone gave it to me at one of our club meetings. The tank I put it in has no CO2, it has shoplights (mixed kinds, 60 or so watts over a 110 gal. tank) and no fertilization whatsoever.

The Polygonum has established itself. It lookes GREAT! I just saw it today and was impressed. It is not red though, far from that. The leaves are bronze/green.

I suspect that the tank gets quite a bit of fish food (since it's a client's tank). But from my experience food provides P and never N. So I have no clue how it manages to grow mosses looking as if with CO2, why the crypts established themselves in less than a week and a month later have shoots all over, why the Aponogetons look good but the lonely sword doesn't.

One thing that I noticed was that ever since I fixed the filter intake to not clog up every week the tank took off. I believe that there is a lot to say about uninterrupted filtration.

--Nikolay


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## rich815 (Jun 27, 2007)

I've had "kawagoneum" for a few month now and from a mere 3 stems have probably trimmed and sold cuttings equalling 30 stems or more. The stuff is gorgeous and grows like a weed for me, and branches nicely and neatly. 

I picked up three stems of "Sao Paulo" about a month ago and so far it grows straight, much slower and no branching. If I had to compare the colors, at least under my conditions, I'd say the "kawagoneum" is a more sunset-orange red transitioning to the stem base where it's greener, while the "Sao Paolo" is more of a magenta/pink-like red and more consistent on color without transitioning of color.

So far I much prefer the "kawagoneum" but that's just a personal choice of liking the orangish-red/sunset color and the transitioning color.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I agree with what Rich815 said about the color. The pink/magenta color is a hard color to work into the tank. But I do love the plant and it's worth a try. The best attempt I've seen to use them both is Bryce's 180g. He has both mixed with a green polygonum. Close and beautiful!!


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

Is it just in the polygonums nature to have the top 2-3 leaves be colorful and the bottoms sta
y green? 

I didnt know if this had anything to do with lighting intensity. Because I have 130w of pc and 36w of t5no over my 37 that houses my polygonum species.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

bsmith782 said:


> Is it just in the polygonums nature to have the top 2-3 leaves be colorful and the bottoms sta
> y green?
> 
> I didnt know if this had anything to do with lighting intensity. Because I have 130w of pc and 36w of t5no over my 37 that houses my polygonum species.


I believe the answer to that is yes. Both of these plants have the vibrant color only on the top 2 or 3 nodes of leaves. If it's different in someone else's tank perhaps they will respond. Since I have my stems at all different levels I'd never really noticed how far the green came up before.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Most red plants produce their color in response to light intensity. Think of it like getting a tan after being in the sun. I suspect that a Polygonum with sufficient light intensity would maintain its color all the way to the bottom. That said, in my tank the color is always better in the newest leaves.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

BryceM said:


> Most red plants produce their color in response to light intensity. Think of it like getting a tan after being in the sun. I suspect that a Polygonum with sufficient light intensity would maintain its color all the way to the bottom. That said, in my tank the color is always better in the newest leaves.


My P. Kawagoeanum gets plenty of light from the midday burst all the way down to at least 1/2 of the length. Still the color is only in the top 2-3 leaf nodes. I would say that perhaps the midday burst isn't long enough but then it doesn't make sense that the shorter stems that are midway below the long stems are vibrant pink/red even at that level. They continue to maintain the color as they grow and finally reach the same height.

Verrrry interesting!


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

Light intensity doesnt change after the plant grows up. My reasoning is that if its bright enough to make the leaves red at the bottom of the tank when there new they should stay like that.



BryceM said:


> Most red plants produce their color in response to light intensity. Think of it like getting a tan after being in the sun. I suspect that a Polygonum with sufficient light intensity would maintain its color all the way to the bottom. That said, in my tank the color is always better in the newest leaves.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

bsmith782 said:


> Light intensity doesn't change after the plant grows up. My reasoning is that if its bright enough to make the leaves red at the bottom of the tank when there new they should stay like that.


I think that may be easy to reason, but my plants say differently. The leaves at the top portion of the stems are nice and brilliant pinky/red. Then the next nodes grow and the older leaves fade to the olive green color. Perhaps it has to do more with the age of the leaves than the color?..


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

Yeah, like they say babies eyes are blue for the first few days or something like that.



Tex Gal said:


> I think that may be easy to reason, but my plants say differently. The leaves at the top portion of the stems are nice and brilliant pinky/red. Then the next nodes grow and the older leaves fade to the olive green color. Perhaps it has to do more with the age of the leaves than the color?..


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

Has anyone pegged the wrinkly leaves to a Ca defficiency? My DGh is ~12 so Ca should be good but I still have wavey leaves in 'sao paulo' and kawa.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with the leaves of any plants pictured in this thread.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

In the plantfinder the leaves look nice and smooth. Here are mine.
sao paulo









kawa











Cavan Allen said:


> I don't see anything wrong with the leaves of any plants pictured in this thread.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

You would have to have almost no calcium in your water for there to be a deficiency. If you think that what you've got is outside the normal range of variation (and it may not be), then it's most likely got something to do with something else. It can even be related to current. It looks like you could use more micros, so you might try that. What is the light intensity?


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

I dose 5ml of Flourish and 5ml or flourish iron on micro day. Light is 130w pc and 38w t5no. This is all in a 37g tank, kinda tall. 



Cavan Allen said:


> You would have to have almost no calcium in your water for there to be a deficiency. If you think that what you've got is outside the normal range of variation (and it may not be), then it's most likely got something to do with something else. It can even be related to current. It looks like you could use more micros, so you might try that. What is the light intensity?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

How often is micro day? Every other? If so, you're probably adding half what you should. More! 

You can split up your micros and macros to day and night and that's often sufficient to avoid cloudiness. That probably doesn't matter much for the matter at hand though.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2006)

No kidding? I have been thinking about this ltely. Well, just did a WC today so im ready for the change. 

Thanks Cavan, ill report back in a couple of weeks.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

So, this morning I noticed these funny spots on my emergent Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' stems.










It's on *every* emergent leaf. (Only some stems pictured.)


















and even on this guy that just broke the surface.









But submerged doesn't have it.









Weird, right? It's almost as if the plant was holding on to a last bit of red. What is it really?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

They're just normal markings on emersed leaves and are not indicative of any disease or nutrient imbalance. Many _Polygonum_/_Persicaria_ species have them.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks!


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Yea, mine have it too. Even kawag has it emersed.


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## wet (Nov 24, 2008)

*Early valentine from my plant*

"I <3 U, APC.

- P"


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