# I need a "show" fish for a 180g community - Ideas?



## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I have a 180g heavily planted tank that has been set up for 2 years now. The current stocklist includes:

12 Congo tetras - _Phenacogrammus interruptus_ 
30 Rummynose tetras - _Hemigrammus rhodostomus_
15 Cardinal tetras - _Paracheirodon axelrodi_
10 Harlequin rasboras - _Trigonostigma heteromorpha_
15 Otos - _Otocinclus affinis_ 'niger'
6 Sidthimunki loaches - _Yasuhikotakia sidthimunki_
_8 Corydoras loxozonus_
a few dozen Amano shrimp

Since I set it up I've always had a few blue rams, _Mikrogeophagus ramirezi_, but they're getting old, and the orignal group of five is now down to two. It's time to try something else.

I'm looking for something that will add a bit of color and personality like the rams did. The tank is large enough and densely planted so it should be possible to keep a few of anything small and relativley peaceful. With the exception of the sidthimunki's, everything in the tank is fairly common. Something rare or unusual might be fun.

I like the idea of other S. American or African dwarf chiclids, but I'm open to ideas. Whatever it is must be peaceful, but I can tollerate a little spawning-time aggresion.

There are some new W. African dwarf chiclids coming on the scene. Anyone know where to get these?

The tank is reconstituted RO with GH 5, KH 3.


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## xdoomsongx (Jun 27, 2008)

Discus?  They are peaceful, not very small, but it's 180 gallons right? And talk about show stoppers!


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## jmontee (Feb 7, 2008)

Bryce,

How about a group of peacock gudgeons or some brightly colored killie species?

x, discus have different needs than the other fish in the tank, like they should be at around 82 to 84 degrees. They are nice fish though.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I personally think that African Butterflies (Pantodon buchholzi) add a great deal of animation and interest to a tank like that. They may not be all that colorful, but they are just cool fish to have in the upper level of your tank. In my experience, they get along well with all of the fish you currently have in the tank too.

Angel's are another favorite show case fish of mine that work well in a tank like yours.

I know, boring, but cool....


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Have you seen the red congo tetras? They are gorgeous! Heard somewhere they are abou $60 each. I contacted the company and they said they would have them in the fall. They are definately unique. They would look neat with your blues. Kinda pricey, but anything 
unique will be pricey!

The px. belongs to www.rehobothaquatics.com.


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## xdoomsongx (Jun 27, 2008)

> Have you seen the red congo tetras?


 Just when I thought a congo tetra couldn't get any cooler! Thanks for sharing.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

A pair of Nanochromis transvestitus would be great and in a tank your size they would have enough space not to kill each other!!! The female's colours are awesome.

Other than that some of the other Pelvicachromis species would be great and are very colourful.

They'll only keep the other fish away from their breeding site. Other than that aggression is just between themselves.


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## wrkucera (Jan 6, 2008)

how about an oscar? just kidding...


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

In my experience, if you want showy, active, peaceful fish, you can't go wrong with rainbows. There are so many different cool rainbows to choose from. Rarefishatlax on Aquabid is probably one of the better breeders for the rarer types of rainbows.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Thanks everyone.

xdoomsongx - I love discus and will probably convert the setup to a discus tank someday.

jmontee - I've had peacocks before and they're pretty unusual fish. They only lived about 4 or 5 months though. Maybe I should try again. I'm worried that I'd never see them though.

Jan - Do the butterflies have a tendency to jump? I do need a little activity in the upper layers, but most fish that live there often try to go flying. The back of the tank has a pretty large opening. I absolutely love angels, but they've always intimidated congos in my tanks. Someday I might try altums in the tank though.

TexGal - Red congos? That might be interesting assuming they could be found.

ed seeley - Nanochromis transvestitus is one I've never seen or heard of. West African chiclids are absolutely on the list. I really admired the recent article in TFH about some of the pelvicachromis species:



















Where can you find W. African chiclids? Anyone know?

Aaron - I love rainbows and initially tried to find a school of praecox for the tank. I got 8 and all of them promptly died in quarantine. They're actually almost impossible to find around here. I also worry that they'd not find the soft water to their liking. Anyone know where to get these guys?


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

You should be able to source the West African dwarfs from some specialist suppliers like Ted's Fishroom, Rehoboth Aquatics or others. Don't buy my fish in North America I'm afraid!

Here's a link about Nanochromis transvestitus
http://dwarfcichlid.com/Nanochromis_transvestitus.php


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Im liking these guys, do a search and you can find some better photos, Columbian tetra
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/stats/characins_stats/stats_Hyphessobrycon_columbianus.html


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

If you can find them I recommend _Rhadinocentrus ornatus_.

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Rhadino.htm

They actually do really well in soft water unlike most rainbowfish.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Wow. Nice fish Aaron!

I'm really impressed by some of the newer species starting to come onto the scene. Rehoboth's has some VERY nice West African chiclids. Thanks Ed. I'm almost tempeted to set up my 20g just for them. Hmmmm.


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## Afyounie (Aug 10, 2007)

I had a pair of kribs for awhile. They were just the common ones, but they had beautiful colors and were fun to watch. The only thing I hated about them is that they bred like rabbits. They are also great parents, so those babies don't die often. They filled up a 55g in 2 months with about 60 or so juveniles which I ended up with about 50 of them living. They do stop spawning though when the population gets too big.

I'd go with a rarer species of W. African dwarf, try cichlid-forum.com to see descriptions of different species and pics.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

BryceM said:


> I'm really impressed by some of the newer species starting to come onto the scene. Rehoboth's has some VERY nice West African chiclids. Thanks Ed. I'm almost tempeted to set up my 20g just for them. Hmmmm.


No worries mate. I'd keep the 20 to raise the babies!!! Let us know how you get on!


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

BryceM said:


> Jan - Do the butterflies have a tendency to jump? I do need a little activity in the upper layers, but most fish that live there often try to go flying. The back of the tank has a pretty large opening. I absolutely love angels, but they've always intimidated congos in my tanks. Someday I might try altums in the tank though.


Yes, apparently they do to an extent, but not as much as something like a Hatchet would. I've never had a problem with them getting out of the back opening of my tank like I did with the Hatchet's. I think the big key there is to have a few surface plants for them to hang out under, so they feel secure.

I have about a million of the common Kribs (want some?  ), and they are beautiful fish, but as stated, they breed like bunnies. I know Tony Orso has some of the more uncommon varieties like you have pictured above, so he might be a source, if you're looking.


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## ranchwest (Jul 17, 2005)

How about checkerboard cichlids? They like soft water.


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

Bryce, Twofishguyz.com has had a ton of the Pelvivachromis color morphs in in the last few months, you might try them, too.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I'm pretty sure it was Twofishguyz that I bought some fish from at a convention a couple years ago, and the fish were top quality.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Thanks ingg & Jan.

I tried calling the guys at Rehoboths. Their website looks great but they wouldn't really give me the time of day. It seemed like I was annoying them by calling.

I'll try these other guys.

The more I look at the W. African chiclids, the more I want some. The photos of these fish are absoloutely stunning.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

BryceM said:


> Thanks ingg & Jan.
> 
> I tried calling the guys at Rehoboths. Their website looks great but they wouldn't really give me the time of day. It seemed like I was annoying them by calling.
> 
> ...


Twofishguyz is pretty good. I have dealt with them.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

milalic said:


> Twofishguyz is pretty good. I have dealt with them.


Yes, I think I would try them first.


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## lauraleellbp (Jan 31, 2008)

A few other places that have pretty good reps are www.AnubiasDesign.com and www.oddballfish.com


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

OK,

Ryan at twofishguyz replied. It looks like I'll have some Pelvicachromis taeniatus "Moliwe" on the way next week. These photos are from Erik Olson at "The Krib."



















We're definitely spoiled when it comes to the Internet. Can anyone remember what it was like trying to find rare species 10 or 20 years ago?


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Congrats Bryce! Let us know how it goes. 

Oh yeah, I definitely remember how hard it was to find anything but the norm in this area, and even if I did ask my store to order them, they'd get it wrong and argue that the scientific name of the fish I asked for is the same as something completely different.....


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

They are quite nice. How many will you get? Are they mostly bottom swimmers like the regular kribs? How big do they get?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, they're very much like regular kribs in behavior, but perhaps a bit harder to breed (which might be a good thing!). Males get about 3" in length, females about 2-1/2". The one thing that's interesting is that the females are almost more colorful than the males - pretty rare among fishes. I ordered 6 of them, 3 males & 3 females. If/when they pair off I might move one pair to a smaller breeding setup.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Great choice Bryce. You probably find they manage to breed and raise fry in your big tank, after a few run throughs anyway. The Pelvicachromis species I've bred (incliding taeniatus) have all raised fry in community tanks. NB. most species in the Chromidotilapine tribe have females with more colour than the males, including Pelvicachromis, Nanochromis, Benitochromis and Chromidotilapia. They're all great fish too.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

They'll be here tomorrow morning......... can't wait!


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

\\/ We'll be expecting pxs.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

I think you'll really like these guys Bryce. Be forewarned that they will rearrange your substrate a bit. It won't be unbearable though, just enough to make little caves for spawning.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I'll probably make them some caves out of some rocks/driftwood that I have lying around. At this point I'm not really trying to carefully scape the 180g.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Well, did you get them?? 

Out of all the breeding places mine like, here is one of their favorite types of cave.
Breeding Cave
They also really like something like a 2 or 3" untreated clay pot that's turned almost all the way upside down, with just a little slit for them to slip under.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

JanS said:


> Well, did you get them??
> 
> Out of all the breeding places mine like, here is one of their favorite types of cave.
> Breeding Cave
> They also really like something like a 2 or 3" untreated clay pot that's turned almost all the way upside down, with just a little slit for them to slip under.


Jan, do those caves have an exit as well as an entrance for water circulation? They seem like they would blend right in with the tank environment very well.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

They arrived in PERFECT condition and I must say, I'm astonished at how beautiful they are. Truly amazing colors. They're already displaying to each other and combing the substrate for food.

I have a couple of photos so far that don't do them justice:


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Very nice color! Even after just being shipped! How many pair did you get Bryce?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Three pair total. They really colored up nicely. I can't wait to see what they look like when they start pairing up.


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## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

Wow! Those are some great colors. I have a pair of 'Blue Fin' myself that I need to try to breed. They're super interesting to watch. I think you'll really enjoy them man.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

They are beautiful!! ... and tempting....


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Wow, they are indeed beautiful Bryce. I can't even imagine how colorful they're going to be when they start breeding.



Tex Gal said:


> Jan, do those caves have an exit as well as an entrance for water circulation? They seem like they would blend right in with the tank environment very well.


They come in all sorts of configurations, but most of my fish like the ones with just the front hole. I suppose they feel more secure that way.
Yes, the do blend in very nicely and I've had to add a ton of them to the tanks so all of the fish have one to call their own.


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## rich_one (Oct 31, 2007)

those are really incredible... wow! nice catch!


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Very nice Bryce, but you just wait until the females fatten up and start displaying - you ain't seen nothing yet!!!!!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Jan,

Do they make those caves in any bigger sizes? I looked on Aquabid for a minute or two. Most of what I saw looks too small to even hold two of these fish. The females aren't too big, but the males are almost as big as a full-grown congo tetra male.

ed,

Just today I'm noticing a bit of territorial behavior. One female in particular has the most brilliant yellow accents set against a rich, deep purple background. Simply amazing. I'm in danger of becoming a Westie nut.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

wrkucera said:


> how about an oscar? just kidding...


ound: I nearly spewed coffee all over my computer when I read that! Can you imagine what a pair of Oscars would do to your beautifully planted aquarium?!

Seriously though, very nice fish you got. How have they been with your plants? Any picking at the leaves or digging?

-Dave


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

BryceM said:


> Jan,
> 
> Do they make those caves in any bigger sizes? I looked on Aquabid for a minute or two. Most of what I saw looks too small to even hold two of these fish. The females aren't too big, but the males are almost as big as a full-grown congo tetra male.
> 
> ...


Just wait mate, you'll be hooked in no time! Completely my favourite group of cichlids, so much better than South American dwarfs! For caves I find coconut shells are great too and easy to find and make holes in. My taeniatus and suboccelatus love them.

In your tank I bet you'll find they all eventually have their own little area and then just skirmish at the border of their territories. Should be a really great display - I'm even more jealous of your tank now... :lol:


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

So one of the females has developed a deep purple coloration and a big 'ol gut. She's also taken a liking to a particular area of Blyxa around the base of a large Lagenandra meeboldii 'pink'. I'm still waiting to receive some appropriate spawning caves. For now, I added a small glass jar which is partially burried in the substrate - not ideal, but it's what I have. Waiting. Watching. These fish have been cleaning up a little thread algae in the tank with gusto too. What great fish!


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## ingg (Apr 8, 2007)

You made me go buy some Moliwe for one of my tanks, heh. I'd had a pair of "Nyete"... then a flag fish decided the female had to go, and killer her before the pair ever even spawned.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

So a pair of the 'Moliwe' have clearly claimed the front left corner of the tank as their own. They've been chasing away all of the other fish & shrimp for the past week or two. The female is an incredible deep purple and she's looking a little plump.

I dropped in a small section of 1-1/2" PVC pipe and they were both inside within a couple of minutes. They're very, very intelligent fish. They're wild caught but are still absolutely unconcerned about my arm thrashing around in the tank.

About 10 minutes after putting the pipe in they started doing some impressive shimmy dance behavior......

Guess we'll see how they do in a pretty crowded community tank.

Here's a video of their display.

Don't pay any attention to the BBA and thread algae everywhere. Believe it or not, it's better than it was a couple of weeks ago. My favorite part of the video is when she spits some BBA out of her new nest.


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## mats808 (May 7, 2008)

Hey BryceM,
Cool video. Moliwe's are a nice form of taeniatus. Thanks for sharing
aaron


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

They are beautiful fish with such vibrant colors. I was so intent on watching their displays that I didn't even notice the algae until she spit out that clump.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Great catch on the shimmy action Bryce, and great video! Bohemian Rhapsody?? LOL!

Sorry I missed your prior questions on the caves (I don't know how), but it looks like you have it covered. 
Like I said before, another thing that works well is the 3 or 4" untreated clay flower pots that you can find in places like Wal-Mart for about 35 cents. If you just turn them upside down at an angle and leave just enough room for them to belly under, they absolutely love them.

Keep us posted on the progress.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Nice video of some gorgeous fish!


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

very nice


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Very nice action on the video. They'll probably have eggs in there by tonight. You can tell because the female will stay inside of the pipe and not come out much.

I also ordered P. taeniatus "Moliwe" from Twofishguyz back in January. Great fish, easy care, don't mind me at all. And, yes, smart guys! Clearly won a place in my heart.


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## OhioPlantedtankguy (Aug 7, 2008)

My vote a Small to Medium School of Clown Loaches they are FUNNY to watch and very playful, mine used to play "tag" with my mollys, they would swim really fast at the molly and Kinda spin at the last second and "smack" the molly with their tail then take off and hide then do it all over again, VERY fun fish!


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

Bryce,

what size is the PVC tube and did you cover the back side of it or is it open on both sides?

thanks


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You're going to have so many you won't know what to do with them all!  So glad you're good at this photography thing, because I will look forward to pxs of them taking the fry around the tank to graze! D:


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

milalic,

I think the PVC tube is actually a 1-1/2" coupler. It's about 4 or 5 inches long and open on both sides. The back end is pretty much burried in the substrate and closed off by a wall of plants.

Tex Gal,

So far they haven't actually spawned, at least as far as I can tell. They more or less hang out by the pipe and they still occasionally display to each other. Maybe something isn't quite to their liking. The thing is pretty much front and center and my young children are always poking their faces around to see what's happening. Besides, there are just tons and tons of fish in that tank - over 100 last time I counted.

I really suspect they'd be better off in a dedicated breeding setup. I'm not really sure I want to go to that much effort right now.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

They'll breed in there, just give them time. Whether any babies survive your Congos is another matter!!!! As soon as you don't see the female leaving the tunnel she will have spawned.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I have galaxy rasboras (celestial pearl danios) in there and the congos leave them completely alone. It really surprised me. If they can get up to that size, they should be ok.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, one of the females has been hiding in her little PVC cave for the past three days. I got a flashlight and can see maybe 30-40 surprisingly large eggs stuck to the ceiling of the pipe - 3 or 4 times larger than angelfish eggs. Man, does she ever look thin.  The male doesn't stray too far away.

Do y'all think they have a chance to raise them in a community tank that's this busy?


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

My P. "Moliwe" were in their own tank when they spawned. But judging by how expert they were at keeping the fry close together, as well as them operating as a team; if any fish were to succeed in a mixed tank, I'd think they'd be the ones! Another advantage is that they do not require tiny live foods like the _Apistogrammas_. Even if they just get a third or quarter of their batch past any predators, that would be enough. After their second or third spawn, you'll be glad there is some natural 'thinning of the herd' taking place!

In my large display tank, my Congo tetras have gotten very lazy about chasing down fry. I've got a burgeoning Endler population that has run amok! I guess they know they can count on their regular pellet rations and expend much less energy - the SMUCKS! When I had African Butterfly Cichlids, _Anomalochromis thomasi_, spawning in that tank, I think it was the Rummy nose school which always did the damage. Those parent could keep their fry for about 5 days. Then as the fry would wander higher above the substrate they'd be gone. The taeniatus fry grow quicker so they may get large enough while the parents keep them in a concentrated spot.

Of course, do let us know how they manage. Looking forward to pic too!


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Congrats Bryce!



BryceM said:


> Do y'all think they have a chance to raise them in a community tank that's this busy?


I'd venture to guess that even if you do nothing to intervene, you'll get at least some survivors. If you want to use a bit of a safety net, it helps greatly to stick some sort of a night light (not moonlight) on the tank until the fry are big enough to fend for themselves.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Congratulations! IME they sometimes take a couple of attempts to raise a brood successfully, especially in a community tank, but they will do it after a try or two. Some get it right first time too. The nightlight is a great idea, on for at least an hour or so after lights out it will give them time to put the babies to bed!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I came back from a short vacation today. The fry are now free swimming and the mom is moving them about regularly. I think there are 20 or so but it's pretty hard to tell. She keeps them in pretty dense cover.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

That's great news Bryce! Just wait, this is only the beginning.


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## Mike_E_P (Jan 15, 2008)

NOOOO! I just got done reading the thread and have to know what happens next! Its like a soap opera, it cuts off at the best part!

Cant wait till the next episode!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, today the mom let me get a decent look at the little ones. She usually keeps them wrapped up tightly in the heaviest cover available. Being a 180g tank, it's pretty hard to see everywhere. Literally, I've seen them 4 or 5 times total since they became free-swimming. Today she had them packed in around the lower roots of some Blyxa japonica. They're amazingly adept at pecking around for food. Like their parents, they seem to be perfectly happy scavenging off of the lower levels of the tank. They are growing, which is reassuring. Getting food directly to them would be next to impossible in any case.

Dad is starting to take turns once in a while, even letting mom get some food at feeding time today. When I was able to get a good look, I could see that there are still 20 or maybe 25 of them.

The fact that the parents have kept them alive for this long blows me away. Their aquarium has a dozen full-grown congo tetras, over 30 rummynose, 15 cardinals, and some other odds & ends, not to mention two other pair of dwarf chiclids and one lone surviving ram.


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## Mike_E_P (Jan 15, 2008)

Wow, thats great news! Those are some dedicated parents!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Somehow, the two parents have managed to keep their little group of fry alive in this mixed community tank. The ability of the parents to do this is maybe the most surprising thing I've seen in the hobby.

There are still around a dozen little ones and they're becoming increasingly bold. Mom and dad leave them alone for a few seconds now and they're ranging over a much wider area. The little ones are maybe about 1/4" long now but their bellies are always nice and round. I'm not sure what they're finding to eat, but obviously it's something.

I'll try to get some photos when they get a little bigger. My camera is lousy when it comes to macro images.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I'm glad to hear they're doing well Bryce.

Yes, I'm always amazed that any of my fry survive with the community I have in my 125, but I'm almost considering giving them birth control at this point... 

I'll look forward to photos of the "kids".


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, these images are pretty lousy, but they should give you some idea of the little one's size at this point. Mom is becoming a little less fussy about keeping them in a tight group. The other fish are more or less leaving the little ones alone at this point.









A photo of dad.









A photo of mom.









Mom and one of the fry.









Two of the fry. Compare them to the Downoi.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

It looks like they're coming along nicely Bryce.


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## Mud Pie Mama (Jul 30, 2006)

Those are some absolutely stunning fish; your "lousy" photos look pretty good to me! 

I'm always enthralled at the many iridescent colors these females exhibit and can watch them for hours.


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

do you feed the fry anything specific, or do they just scavenge?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Just regular fish food. Like their parents, they comb the substrate looking for things to eat. Judging by their growth they're finding enough, but compared to other fry I've raised, specific feeding would probably result in faster growth. This business of raising fry in a community tank is pretty strange to me. I tried directing some food toward the fry when they were smaller but it just attracted all of the other fish in the tank.

A second pair is now ready to spawn and have "taken over" the cave. The male from the first spawning has lost all interest in the fry. Mom is still guarding a few in a new part of the tank, but mostly the little guys are on their own now. I suspect I'll loose a few to predation from the larger males, especially if the second pair actually spawns. The congo tetras never seem to come close enough to the substrate to see them.


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## bs6749 (Dec 23, 2007)

Shoulda gone with discus! That's a great size tank for a large school of them. You won't get any showier fish IMO.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah maybe, but you either do a discus tank from the ground up or you do something else. Discus require higher temps and I'm not sure my current plants or 'scape would work well for that.


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