# OK smart people, kill my brown algae!



## BryceM

Probably a few of you have been following my 180g setup on this thread.

Since putting the plants in and getting everything set up on September 10th, I've been getting my butt kicked by brown (diatom?) algae. It's very soft, easily rubbed off of the plants (at least at first), and it's covering EVERYTHING - substrate, wood, rocks, and plants.

Some of the more severely affected plants are starting to look pretty ragged with a bit of green fuzz algae starting to appear in very limitted areas. The HC has all but disappeared under a carpet of the stuff.

So far, I've tried the following:

1. Waiting it out (supposedly the new tank syndrome thing only lasts a couple of weeks - HA!)
2. 100 amano shrimp - fun to watch, but it would require a million of them as most of them are still pretty small.
3. 16 otos - fat, living on easy street
4. manually removing the plants twice now to "de-gunk" them. It only requires a light rinse and all the majority of the soft grunge gets washed away.
5. Cranking up the CO2. I'm using a Pinpoint controller, now ranging between pH 6.5 and 6.6. The plants are actually pearling under the brown grunge, but the algae is pearling too. Sigh  
6. 50% WCs every other day over the past week.

I'm keeping NO3 at 15-20ppm and PO4 >2ppm. My GH is 15 and the KH is 11. All testing is per Lamotte. I'm dosing TMG 1 cc/gal/week and Fourish Fe 0.5 cc/gal/week. Lighting is HQI 150W 6,500K x 3 for 4.5 hours/day and 39W T-5 x 4 for 12 hours/day. Substrate is eco-complete over a light dusting of peat moss. Water flow is quite brisk with a closed-loop circuit and 2 Eheim 2217s.

The addition of the otos resulted in the majority of the wood being kept clean, but they haven't helped the plants yet. I could probably use another 2 dozen or so, but I wouldn't have a home for them once things settle in.

I'm not exactly out of patience yet as I expected a few algae "issues", but I'm growing tired of the brown grunge covering up everything in my new "8,000 lb elephant" in the living room.

On the brigher side, the fish look fantastic and seem quite happy.

Any thoughts besides what I'm already doing? My plan is to crank the CO2 down by another 0.1 units per day until the fish/shrimp start to show it. I'm thinking of a short, but heavy course of Flourish Excel too. Maybe a week or two at 2-3X regular dosing. Has anyone tried this for diatoms?


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## Gomer

Never had diatom issues, but excel seems to work well for most things I have dealt with.

If it was my tank, I would double the "initial" dose and do that twice a week, and skip the daily doses.


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## joephys

I never see the stuff in my tank, but it attacks my filter to the point that with in 3 weeks, there is no flow. I would like to know some tricks too. I can't put excel in my tank.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori

Get more Ottos or Olive Nerites- like 50. They'll chow that stuff down.


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## MatPat

Have you tried reducing the photoperiod yet? I would shoot for 8 hours on the T-5s and maybe 3 hours on the MH just to see how it goes. I would give this a shot after your next "manual" removal and water change.


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## BryceM

Thanks everyone. So far it all sounds like good advice. Anyone know what to do with 50 otos when the tank gets cleaned up? I don't mind having 20 or so for a permanent crew but 50 is a bit much. Besides, I think I've already purchased every otto within 100 miles of here.

I'll try knocking the light down too.

Does anyone have experience with Excel and diatoms? I've got enough excel lying around that I could probably do a 2 week course.


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## BryceM

Anyone else?

MH's now set for 3hrs/day.


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## MatPat

I know it's only been a couple of days, but have you noticed any change in the Diatom Algae yet? Reducing the intensity and duration of the lighting has always worked pretty well for me in both CO2 and non-CO2 tanks. I guess it could be a coincidence though 

As for the Otos, you can send the extra ones to me and I will distribute them among the SWOAPE members


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## AaronT

I would stop doing so many frequent water changes. Give the tank a chance to cycle properly and see if it settles out that way instead.


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## dennis

I agree with Aaron but I also woul dtry lowering the trace a bit. I know, ferts don't lead to algae but I do believe there is a balance that is necessary as compared to plant mass. I believe TMG is more potent than Flourish also, so a little less would be fine. Cheaper too Uping the CO2 and lowering photoperiod are probably the best things you could do, IMO.


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## sarahbobarah

I don't know if this will help you, but I once had this problem too. Not even plecos could make a big enough dent. It was a 10g tank that had about 5 bamboo shrimp in it. After I took all the shrimp out, bam! Diatoms! Put shrimp back in, no more diatoms. 

Good luck!


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## Jimbo205

guaiac_boy (boy that's a hard one to spell), 

I really do not know if this would apply, BUT; Hoppy helped me out with a green water algae problem in my tank by suggesting a 2 day BLACKOUT. It was very hard to do. I was visualizing taping paper or some such thing to the glass. Too much work. I found some bath towels that were very thick and just covered my tank with them and unplugged the timers. For you I guess you would need to use blankets (big ones!!). 

It was very much worth it for me. My water is now crystal clear. I don't pretend to understand completely, but for me it worked. Would this work for your situation? 

For an added kicker, the last day when I had removed the towels; I had forgotten to plug the lights back into the timers so the tank had an additional day black out. 

I look forward to reading other suggestions.


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## BryceM

Wow, great responses today! I really appreciate the input. I've come to the same conclusion about backing off on the WC's. From personal experience and everything I read, I'm led to believe that the brown alage will eventually work itself out. Watching nice plants succumb meanwhile is the hard part.

The MH's are down to 3 hrs/day and I've turned off one bank of the T-5's. I'm still running them for 10 hrs/day at 39Wx2. This is about 0.5 wpg. CO2 is cranked as high as it will go without affecting the fish/shrimp - currently about 1.4 pH below degassed, (FWIW, KH 10, pH 6.5-6.6 on the controller). Stocking is 9 juvenile congo tetras, 13 rummies, 15 +/- otos, 90 +/- amanos and 3 german rams - seems pretty light for a 180.

Yesterday I took about 3 hours and manually removed as much algae as I could from the left half of the tank. My hope is that if I get enough of it, the amanos and otos will be able to keep up. It actually comes off of the plants pretty easily, but it really beats up the delicate stemmies (R. wallachi & R. vietnam) to manhandle them like that. I tossed the narrow-leaf P. stellatus and trimmed away about 1/2 of the anubias (old greenspot & old slight BBA).

The good news is that I now have an enormous mass of H. zosterifolia and H. polysperma 'ceylon' which are growing like crazy. After 3 hours of the MH's things are pearling nicely. Hopefully I'll outpace the algae pretty soon. Didiplis is growing well, but just staying ahead of the *&%^* algae. Even R. macranda might be keeping ahead of it now, so maybe things are improving - but I've thought this before, only to be disapointed. We'll see. I'll keep posting here for the benefit of someone else who may see the same thing someday. Three weeks of this was a little more than I'd expected.

I'll back off a bit on the traces too. With all the WC's I've been adding quite a bit lately.

I'm not sure the plants are in good enough shape to withstand a blackout but I have thought about it. I've never seen this recommened for diatoms though.

I'm still running a 15W UV unit 24/7. Does anyone think this is making a difference, either good or bad?


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## sarahbobarah

Use a paintbrush on the delicate stems.


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## Jimbo205

> Use a paintbrush on the delicate stems.


 That sounds good!

Have you thought of using Giant Duckweed, Duckweed, Water Lettuce and 'Indian Fern', Elodea canadensis or waterhyacinth (Eichhornia crassipes)?

I am cheating. I looked that up in Diana Walstad's book. Do you have any of those or easy access to any of those? I am curious if they would help like her book says. I hope so.

The black out worked for me. And today, I don't think my 27 Gallon's water ever looked so good. And for awhile there, I thought my tank was just very old. With the water it has now, mine looks brand new! (What could it hurt?).

Good luck Guaiac_boy ( I am getting better at typing that now.)


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## apistaeasy

I am addicted to excel. If I could shoot it up, I would...

seriously though, excel does a great job of combatting algea

I also second doing h2o changes less frequently, your water quality is probably pretty high, and the bacteria are being chopped down every other day.

I found it interesting about the floating plants...I'll ask someone at work about that.


Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see your dosing regimen???


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## BryceM

Currently dosing:
4-6g of KNO3 every other day (tapwater has about 10 ppm NO3 in it)
2.0g of KH2PO4 every other day
50ml TMG every other day
25ml Flourish Fe every other day

I'm currently testing with Lamotte kits every other day at present to verify that NO3 is above 15 (ranging 15-25) and PO4 is above 2 (ranging 1.5-3). So far, the above dosing is keeping it pretty stable.

I looked this AM and it appears (fingers crossed) that the areas that I cleaned up two days ago are staying fairly clean. I'll hopefully have few hours to dedicate to the right side today.


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## abnormalsanon

I did a 3-day blackout in my 55gal tank to get rid of most of the brown algae. It wasn't fun, but nothing else seemed to work for me.


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## MiSo

PG: Algae - An Overview - PlantGeek.net



> Brown algae:
> Forms in soft brown clumpy patches. In the freshwater aquarium, these are usually diatoms. Usually indicates a lack of light or an excess of silicates. Increased light levels will usually make it disappear. Easily removed by wiping the glass or siphon vacuuming the affected area.


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## BryceM

Well, MiSo, I would have agreed with this statement, but I guarantee that in this case, the problem is not a lack of light. When the brown algae pearls all day long, it seems to be very content as it soaks up the rays.


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## wiste

Have you tried a diatom filter?


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## BryceM

I have not tried a diatom filter, but I'm not sure what benefit it would provide. My water is currently crystal-clear, probably thanks to my UV unit.


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## wiste

My thought would be that if the algae is due to excessive silicates that the they would be removed by the filter. Just a thought, I do not really have much experience with this type of algae.


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## Chris S

Brown algae in my tanks is definately a water change issue. When I perform more water changes more frequently I get more brown algae on the glass. I truely belive it is a silicates issue and that silicates get used up by the brown algae and if you perforn small water change and filter rinsing after your intial bloom, they will not come back in as strong a force. plant mass makes a difference in my opinion also. Good luck.


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## apistaeasy

I asked some of the more experienced people at work...

They second or third or fourth the water change idea. Decrease the frequency and amount of water changes.

Oxygen might be an issue due to high amounts of co2 injection... try increasing agitation. Increased flow by itself might help to resolve the problem.

floating plants are usually great to keep your nitrates low since they have access to open air they can use them more. I suppose this won't help.

Seems as though you've got it under control though. Good luck!


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## BryceM

An update....... I spent about 2 hrs cleaning off all the stemmies & anubias on the right side of the tank today. So far, the left side is staying fairly clean. The tank actually looks non-disgusting right now for the first time since I planted it.

On an even more positive note, the character of the algae is now different. It now seems less adherent to the plants and is easily dislodged by only a gentle swirling of water past the affected area. It never was that adherent, but before I'd actually need to rub the leaf to get it to come off. I'm led to believe that what I'm seeing now is mostly gunk that settled out after being kicked up from somewhere else. A few more cycles of this and the canisters should eventually clean it up.

I appreciate the input from everyone. Apistaeasy, I think flow in the tank should be adequate - the Eheim 1260 pump on the closed-loop and the two Eheim 2217's create so much current that I'm worried that it might even be excessive. The rummies seem to enjoy "body surfing" around the tank on occasion while the congos and rams usually stay in the calmer areas. 

I've repositioned the canister return lines to create additional rippling on the surface. I seem to recall others here saying that they found more aeration to be helpful in the early stages of setting up a tank.

I'm definately cutting back on the WC's. I'll probalby do only a 25% WC after a week, since I'm really not doing EI anyway.

Am I finally winning? Stay tuned......


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## MatPat

guaiac_boy said:


> Am I finally winning? Stay tuned......


It sounds like it  Now for the big question, which one of the things you have attempted is responsible for the demise of the the algae?

Was it reducing the lights, stopping the water changes, increasing the surface rippling, or just the natural time period for diatoms in a new tank?


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## BryceM

MatPat said:


> Was it reducing the lights, stopping the water changes, increasing the surface rippling, or just the natural time period for diatoms in a new tank?


I didn't stop the WC's until 2 days ago and increased the surface aggitation only yesterday. By then I think things were already in decline (fingers crossed).

Just a guess, but so far I think the biggest help has been decreasing the duration of the MH's & reducing the intensity of of the T-5 lighting. I suspect that around 1.0 wpg of T-5 was enough to help the algae significantly, but not the plants.

Also, I think that the manual removal of the built-up algae was absolutely necessary. You told me many months ago that algae almost never "goes away". I agree with this statement completely.

Looking at the tank today there is still lots of brown algae around. It's just less intense and building up MUCH more slowly. For the most part, it's still the soft, fluffy, easily removed stuff. I've got another 18 otos coming early next week which should help too.

I don't think the tide will completely turn until the plants recover sufficiently to put on some explosive growth. Once this happens, things should settle in nicely. At present, most of the plants in the tank aren't too healthy from being completely encased in goo for 3 weeks.

I hope this experience is beneficial to someone else out there. I've had my fill.

Keeping fingers crossed..............


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## Jimbo205

I am glad that however you did it; that it is starting to work out for you.

Just out of curiosity, do have access to those plants? I ask because I am curious how well the 'low-tech' biological technique works. Some things work and some day I will understand the details later (fully), I just like to *KNOW* what actually does work.

For myself, I had a very hard time believing that a full black out for even 1 (maybe 2 or 3) day would work. But boy, oh boy, am I glad I did!

Now my experiments with my 'Betta Bowl at Home' has taught me NOT to dose supplements in THAT one. Believe it or not, for THAT Betta Bowl for whatever reason - the plants do better just living in the Bowl with the Betta and what the Betta provides for the plants. Go figure. For my other 2 tanks at home - the dry ferts and CO2 are doing GREAT. The Betta Bowl at the Office - I do the Seachem Daily Dosage Schedule.

Guaiac_boy, I wish you success in whatever method you use!

Let us know which one you think worked best for you and your new aquarium.


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## BryceM

An update......

I wouldn't say that things are completely resolved, but the tank looks better than it did a couple of weeks ago. Still, most plants are only growing slowly, if at all. There is less of the classic stuck-on brown algae and more of the bushy, clumpy, ragged, stringy algae that is getting stuck wherever the current blows it. I'm still getting some new brown algae forming on the substrate and driftwood. I'm about ready to try a blackout. If 2 dozen new otos don't make a difference when they come later this week I think I'll try it.

The frustrating thing is that my 46g tank looks wonderful and the plants are healthy appearing. The water is the same and CO2 levels are the same. Clearly there is still something about this new tank that is favoring the brown algae.


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## BryceM

Things are no better. Check this out:



















This brown goo would be a serious contender for the most horrific algae award. Decreasing the duration of the MH's and shutting off 1/2 of the T-5's has slowed its progress, but it's certainly back and appearing very healthy. I keep doing research on brown algae and I keep running into 2 things that are supposed to cause it.

1) high silicates
2) low light

Well, I have absolutely no other algae in this tank but right now the fluffy brown stuff is kicking my butt. The whole thing looks like an absolute garbage pit - right in the middle of my living room. I'm wondering if 10 hours of 1/2 wpg of T-5 is helping out the brown stuff. The HQI's only come on for 3 hrs/day at present.

I don't suppose there is much I can do about the silicates, but if there's one thing I have the ability to do with this setup it is to provide "enough light". I've tried everything else. This is the endgame.

My plan is 7 hrs/day combined T-5 39W x 4 with HQI 150W MH x 3 = 3.3 wpg. For now, I'll eliminate the "extended viewing period" that I had intended to do with T-5's. I'll keep CO2 up with the controller and monitor NO3 and PO4 every other day.

Call it a grand experiement. If this doesn't work I have three more weapons in the arsenal.

1) 2 dozen addional ottos
2) RO unit to allow for silicate removal
3) 3-day blackout

Beyond that it's a complete tear-down, bleach, and start over. I have a certain amount of patience, but I actually expected something nice in the living room.

Whaddya think? Crazy? Destined to fail? We'll see. The tank is pearling like MAD right now.


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## MatPat

Thank you for the pic! This does not look like diatom algae but rather grey slime with a coating of diatom algae on it  How does your tank smell right now?

I have had the same stuff twice now in my 75g with the Soilmaster Select Substrate and once in my 50g that sits directly under the 75g. Both tanks have a Soilmaster Select Substrate. At first thought I concluded the Soilmaster was the common link but I really don't think that is the problem. 

The first time I had this was during a lengthy period of neglect after the birth of my daughter. I rarely did water changes and infrequently fertilized the tank. It was eradicated with a 3 day blackout. That was several months ago. 

I now have it starting up again in the same tank. This time, it was due to a malfunction in my CO2 delivery, I think. My needle valves (three tanks run off of the same regulator) became very inconsistent and needed to be adjusted higher several times each day to keep the bubble counters working. I think I have the needle valves corrected now...they have been fine for two days...but only one fo the 75g tanks was effected. The other 75g and the 50g donot have this algae, yet. 

I recently added several new plants to this tank (75g) that I received from various forum members. All of those plants have the algae on the older growth but not on the new growth. I have found that anytime I add new plants to my tanks, they go through a two week stagnation process before new growth begins to show. It seems Algae on new plants is inevitable during this time frame, at least in my experience so far. 

I guess we could look into high silicates...I have about 8ppm out of my tap but none of my other tanks have this algae and they are all hooked up to the same CO2 delivery system and have similar lighting levels, photoperiods and fertilization schedule.

To further confuse the issue  the 75g has 192w of NO T-8 over it and the 50g had 80W of T-12 lights over it (until a week or so ago) when the algae made it's appearances. 

The blackout seems to work on this stuff. However, I would still like to figure out what causes it in the first place.


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## BryceM

This latest stuff is what I described earlier when I thought I was winning vs. the brown algae. The classical stuck-on-the-leaf diatoms that are a pain, but easily rubbed off turned into this junk. There are still a few diatoms around, but this is the main issue at the moment. It looks like a filamentous, very soft, brown algae. It kind of looks like snot strung all over the tank, pardon my french.

It doesn't have a real strong smell - certainly nothing like BGA. It's not foul, but not exactly plesant either. It's certainly most prevalent around the substrate in areas with little light. I'm starting to wonder if the eco complete isn't somehow a factor. My SMS tank is perfectly happy at the moment.

I'd much rather get the tank transitioned over to something that I recognize like GSA or even BBA (never thought I'd say that!). I know how to kill that stuff.

I'll try massive light and CO2 for a few days. Worst case scenario is that I need to do a 3 day blackout at the end of it.

Per the algae finder - grey slime supposedly shows up with low nitrate levels and poor curent. I suppose this is possible, but it would mean that my Lamotte kit would need to be off by a considerable margin. I haven't calibrated it in an age. I just got all new reagents too. The tank hasn't been under 15 ppm NO3 since being set up and I've been checking 2-3 times per week. There is enough current in the tank to impress just about anyone - I don't think that's it.

Maybe I'll get some distilled water to do a little test kit checking.

My suspicion is that things will eventually work themselves out. As far as I can tell, the tank parameters should be ok:

CO2 - just calibrated my controller again, should be plenty
circulation - WAY more than in my 46g, which looks great at the moment
nitrates - between 15-20 ppm per Lamotte
phosphates - between 2 and 3 ppm per Lamotte
KH - 14 at the moment, moves upward after WC's - probably due to eco complete
GH - usually about 3-4 degrees more than KH, Ca/Mg ratio is about 3.5:1 per Lamotte
Temp - 76
light - 7 hrs/day 3.3 wpg
micros - TMG & Flourish Fe every other day 0.5 cc/gal/week TMG and 0.5 cc/gal/week Flourish Fe
UV sterilizer 15W which runs 24/7 - helping or hurting - who knows?
go figure.....


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## slickwillislim

I had this same thing a few days ago but even worse. I will try and find the pics I took. I blacked out the tank and emptied it out when I moved the tank about 6 feet. It all died off but it is growing back in very small amounts. It grows sooooo fast. I sucked most of it out with a airline hose. Just started the siphon and sucked up parts of the algae and sms until The tank was empty. My tank an iwagumi style tank with stems and alot of floating plant mass to prevent algae.

My brown algae grew the worse in direct light the 1/3 of my tank shaded by the floating plants mass had far less algae.


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## BryceM

Great, it's an epidemic! Maybe the spinach farmers are to blame.

I'm starting to sense a blackout in my future..........


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## slickwillislim

I had it much milder in my 29 and it passed with time. It was only in my tennellus. I got rid of it though so I am hoping this just fades with time. Your post kind of discourages my hopes. 

I doubt I will ever eat uncooked spinach again. Not that I ate it in the first place though.


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## Mud Pie Mama

Oh man, I feel your pain. Don't worry you WILL get pass the break in and turn it around! You'll get there! Your tank will be beautiful and those Congo Tetras will love you!

But to quote Oprah:..."STICK WITH THE PROGRAM!" I think you need to do whatever will get your PLANTS GROWING: good wpg light levels (minimal 8 or 9hr duration if you'd like), regular optimum fertilizing, great CO2, and supplemental doses of EXCEL to help kick start those plants off. And perhaps more frequent cleaning of your filters' foam pads to remove that diatom grunge out of the system and keep the water flow strong to circulate the ferts & CO2.

I think some of what Matt mentioned is quite true: that when a plant is first introduced to a new tank environment it can take a week or two to settle in. With a brand new tank you've lots of plants all adjusting at the same time.

I also experienced weeks of fluffy diatom algae battles when I set up my 75g last year. I don't think it's the silicates in the water because when I set up my 46g bow I never had a hint of diatoms!?!

I had hoped/thought I might run the 75g tank w/ 96 watts NO., but one bank of lights didn't provide enough coverage. I added a second light fixture resulting in 192 watts (2.56wpg). The plants started growing better but the brown fluff persisted and every day I was brushing off, stirring & shaking plants. I also realized that I had some short fuzz algae growing on many leaves which the brown fluff would really cling onto. Wisteria - H. difformis, while supposedly a great fast growing - good break in plant was a big offender, as was Hornwort, and Mayaca fluviatilis. I became more and more annoyed and out of frustration finally pulled and trashed the worse offending/affected plants. Basically, replanted the tank. I bleached dipped some of the tougher plants that didn't gather such heaps of fuzz and fluff, ie., Anubias, Java Ferns & Swords. I purchased some other stems to replace those I trashed. And I did not rebuy to replant any of those worse offenders. I started supplemental Excel dosing while the plants settled in. My 75g tank started turning around and I was able to take more pleasure in being a plant grower and not an algae warrior.

If your plants are in good shape and still strong under the algaes a blackout may help, but if they are not growing by leaps and bounds I would look to other tricks of the trade.

Its so hard to resist the urge to aquascape...JUST be a PLANT GROWER for now. Find and learn what and where this tank's optimum configurations are (lights, ferts, CO2) to GROW aquatic plants, and best balance the ecosystem. Then worry about fancy. I know you've mentioned as much in your thread already but I'm just giving this another shout out to reinforce. 

If the hairgrass is attracting more algae maybe that's got to go for now.

PS. Absolutely wonderful thread on your set up. Thanks for all your extra work documenting this adventure.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori

I thought you were having issue with diatoms - looks from your recent pics
that you're having issue with filamentous algae - usually caused by excess iron. Is it really soft? Easy to pull off but regrows within 24 hrs? 
If so, I really think you've got excess Fe in there.
If it is what I think it is, this is the easiest algae to get rid of. Get a few
mollies or rosy barbs - they'll eat that stuff up like spaghetti. Amano shrimp
also eat that stuff up pretty quick.


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## BryceM

Thanks Ghazanfar. It started as classic diatoms but it recently transitioned into this stuff. It is filamentous, very soft, slimy, and regrows almost immediately. I've heard all kinds of ideas about this - too little NO3, not enough circulation, "poor" water conditions, etc. I haven't heard about high Fe before. I'm estimating there are around 70-80 amanos in the tank (out of 100). They don't seem to touch the stuff. Ottos and SAE's leave it alone too (but are helping with what remains of the diatoms).

I don't care for most livebearers, including mollies, but I wouldn't mind trying rosy barbs. I just worry about being able to get them back out later. Catching fish in a 180 isn't that easy.

It is entirely possible the groundwater around here is high in iron. We're on a private well. I know there are several towns in the region with high iron.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori

Its one of the most common 'new tank syndrome' algaes IMO. Especially
when a new tank w/ Flourite is setup. You should have seen my 215
a few weeks after setup - I had that stuff all over the place. Adding
100 Amanos in that setup pretty much cleared that up within a week.
The source of excess iron in my setup was probably due to the excess
Fe from the flourite dust. With a couple of water changes, and then
the amanos, it went away fairly quick.

However, if in your case, the water contains excess Fe - you have
a bit of an issue. I'd try stopping the water changes, pull out as much
of the algae as you can in the mean time. With the Fe levels dropping,
the Amano shrimp should be able to handle the algae. Stop any feeding
if you're doing any. Get them hungry and they'll eat almost anything.

I agree, you have be fairly selective in what fish you put into a setup that size. I don't care too much for mollies either, but they're easier to catch than barbs, so keep that in mind if you plan on adding the barbs. Also, with the
mollies - use only males - don't want them breeding in there.


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## Jimbo205

> It was eradicated with a 3 day blackout.


Guaiac_boy, you have intelligence beyond belief, but why are you saving this idea for last? 
I know you like to understand absolutely everything that is going on, and that is a good thing. But in the meantime, why don't you try this FIRST. And see what happens? Couldn't be worse than torturing yourself looking at your beautiful tank being taken over by this stuff. Find a blanket and cover the thing up. The fish will live. They will still be there. The plants may actually end up looking GREAT after doing it. 
I am not going to pretend to say that I understand WHY it works, but I can tell you from my results; IT IS AMAZING!!! It was the best thing I ever did for my tank. Tonight it was just stunning. 
Of course you will peek at it on day 1 and day 2 when you come home from work. You will probably call the wife and kids from work to ask how the tank looks. But on day 3 you will be glad that you did.

Buddy, I feel your pain. I just want you to have the best tank you can have. And after ALL THE WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE, it is hard to just put the tank in a BLACKOUT and LET GO. It's hard not to fiddle with, isn't it?

Give it a shot. Tell us what happens. I wish the best for you and your tank.

And while your fingers are twitching for 3 days just wanting to mess with it, figure out WHY it works with your buddies here on APC. God knows, there are plenty here that actually CAN explain EXACTLY WHY IT WORKS.

I just know for me it did. (Thank you Hoppy!) I hope it does for you too!


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## BryceM

Regarding blackouts..... why it works is that more advanced plants have sufficient stores to tide them over for several days. At least they do if they're healthy to start with. Algae (or cyanobacteria) are more simple organisms that exists as opportunists. When the sun shines they thrive, when it goes away they die.

Actually, the phases of this tank are kind of interesting. I'm pretty sure that I'll win in the end. I can see what it will eventually look like in my mind's eye. The only real bother for me is watching expensive plants go down the tubes.

You could say that I'm playing with it a bit. I'm trying to see if the ship will right itself. My current thinking is that 7 hrs/day of intense light, with sufficient but not excessive ferts, and high CO2 levels (to the best of my ability to determine this) will be to the plant's advantage. I'm holding on to the idea that happy plants have the ability to somehow cause almost any algae to "go away". This slime algae has only really been going for a few days. There are still diatoms, but they're slowly dying back.

On the bright side, R. macranda is growing rapidly despite the garbage draped all over it. I have a few new HC shoots appearing beneath the thick layer of goo as well. My bacopa and H. zosterifolia are pretty clean and are growing quite well. My C. helferi is throwing out tons of new leaves. Even the anubias are growing quite well.

On the flip-side, the hairgrass is only a scaffolding for a thick cake of slimy goo. It probably needs to go. The Didiplis diandra is being tossed tomorrow and the crypts may or may not recover. The R. 'vietnam', R. wallachi, M. mattogrossense and couple stems of L. 'cuba' are probably a loss, but there are a few new shoots here and there. In the end, it's not such a big deal since I have enough stems of most of these in my other tank to replace them.

If things don't turn around in the next few days I'll do the blackout. There's no guarantee that the slime won't come back after that anyways.


----------



## Jimbo205

And floating Duckweed and plants works how? 

(I read it in Diana's book, I just want to hear your spin on this.)


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## BryceM

My take on floating plants is that they act like sunglasses. If 60% of the light never makes it past the surface then a high-light tank is conveniently converted to a low-light tank. On average, low-light tanks are more stable, bad stuff happens much more slowly, and they're more forgiving. Floating plants also happen to take up a few nutrients and such, but their real trick is the ability to out-compete algae for light. They simply don't let too much through.


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## Jimbo205

From reading Diana's book, do you really think that they only out-complete for light?

I can understand that with Duckweed, but what about Water Lettuce?

Isn't there more involved than just the light factor?

(Again, I have my own ideas from reading her book, but I want your take on this.)


----------



## BryceM

I've never read Diana's book. Maybe I should. I know there are all kinds of theories about floating plants' ability to take up atmospheric CO2, fix atmospheric nitrogen and all that, but honestly -- a big plant wandering around up by the light source casts a huge shadow down at the bottom of the tank. I'd say shading accounts for the vast majority of any supposed benefit.


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## Jimbo205

*You* will love this book!!!! You are going to tear right through her book the day you get it. I just know.

If you know as much as you do about biology and chemistry and keeping fresh water aquariums, 
you will not be able to put it down until you have gotten through the entire thing in one sitting.

The easiest thing I have ever done online. Easy. Great price. Great Deal. I love this book.

Go to the top of this page on the screen and click on the link. It was even within MY price range.

(That was also why I was hoping you might TRY one or two of the floating or EMERGENT plants.
I wanted to see if it works as well as the blackout.)

And knowing you, 
you will actually understand absolutely everything that she says and happens in your beautiful tank.

I can't wait to hear your feedback on even just a little part of it. :bounce:
:dance:


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## Raul-7

Jimbo205 said:


> From reading Diana's book, do you really think that they only out-complete for light?
> 
> I can understand that with Duckweed, but what about Water Lettuce?
> 
> Isn't there more involved than just the light factor?
> 
> (Again, I have my own ideas from reading her book, but I want your take on this.)


I believe they are more effecient since they can have an abundance of atmospheric CO2 and it is easily utilized compared to how CO2 behaves in water. Similarly to aquatic plants, they thrive much better emersed than submersed. And they don't really have anything that affects their grow negatively except for strong currents and maybe shading, but they are rarely infested with algae or cyanobacteria. They can easily absorb N from the water column or the atmosphere. In general they have much better advantages other than just receiving most of light.


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## houseofcards

Guaiac boy,
Firstly I'm sorry to hear about your algae issues, especially in such a big beautiful setup. I know alot of folks here have hit you with many theories, etc of what might be causing the problems. 

A few years ago I setup a 46g bowfront and had a very similiar algae issue that would not go away. I consulted many more experienced planted aquarists and they all swore I was doing everything correctly (sounds like you are as well) As it turned out it wasn't anything I was doing it was the substrate - eco complete. I had received tainted bags that had been mixed with calcium carbonate. My po4 levels were extremely high but I never realized how high until I removed some of the eco and tested it in a cup of water. The numbers were off the chart. I never realized the high po4 levels in the middle or top of the water column because I kept doing frequent water changes as you have and I'm not sure of how quickly it leached from the eco. 

I know this is just another theory thrown at you, but is there a chance you have corrupted eco? I know this problem was big in '05, but it's certainly possible. In the end carib-sea was great at sending replacement bags.


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## Jimbo205

Raul-7 (and Guaiac-boy) check out page 93 and page 94. It is amazing.

"The low productivity of submerged plants is not because there is less CO2 in water than in air. (On average, most natural waters have about three times more mg/l CO2 than air [8,9]). It is because CO2 diffuses so slowly in water (i.e., 10,000 times slower than in air). This simple physical phenomenon inevitably limits CO2 uptake, because the CO2 molecules just don't contact the plant's leaf fast enough to meet the plant's needs." Chapter VI Carbon - Diana Walstad.

She goes on to write about Marine plants versus freshwater plants. Eelgrass and turtle grass, were found to be 50 to 200% more productive than Hydrilla verticillata and Myriophyllum spicatum, two 'fast-growing' freshwater species [10].

The difference is because marine plants are assured of an ample and constant carbon supply from the 115-143 mg/l of bicarbonates in seawater [11]. Diana Walstad page 94.

This book is just amazing. Absolutely wonderful book to read and re-read.


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## BryceM

houseofcards said:


> As it turned out it wasn't anything I was doing it was the substrate - eco complete. I had received tainted bags that had been mixed with calcium carbonate. My po4 levels were extremely high but I never realized how high until I removed some of the eco and tested it in a cup of water. The numbers were off the chart.....is there a chance you have corrupted eco? I know this problem was big in '05, but it's certainly possible. In the end carib-sea was great at sending replacement bags.


The thought has crossed my mind. I struggled for a long time with the substrate choice. I had initially planned to use charcoal soilmaster select, but it wasn't quite dark enough and it was way too light to use for HC. I actually have 250 lbs of the stuff in my garage and I'm still using it in my 46g. I chose eco-complete because I had used it before with good results and I liked the density and character of the granules.

I have seen a few shells scattered in with the mix, but they're pretty rare. There is a definate trend toward raising my KH. It goes from 10 to 14 during the week between WC's. Others have commented on this previously, even with normal bags, and they usually say that the effect fades after a couple of months.

I'd have given ADA Amazonia a serious look, but there is something in me fighting the need to become another Amano-tron. If I can't fix this, that's probably where I'll end up though. Ughh - the thought of changing out substrate in this beast isn't pretty.

I'll try doing a phosphate test from water obtained from the substrate. I've actually needed to dose about 1.5 grams of KH2PO4 every two or three days though to keep in the 2-3 ppm range. I got the eco from Dr. Foster/Smith. I imagine they turn over their stock pretty regularly. Still, anything is possible. Who knows what acually makes it into their bags.


----------



## BryceM

OK..... next chapter. By today, mucous algae was starting to heap up in piles. I manually removed all that I could, removed any plants that looked even remotely unhealthy, did a 50% WC, and turned out the lights.

Blackout in progress. Big tarp from Walmart. Many blankets on top. Airstone running. CO2 off.

I could use 3 days off from all this anyways.

I'll let you know how it looks on Monday.


----------



## dennis

Which brings up an interesting point... any idea what you O2 levels in the water are like? I have not done much reasearch or thought on the effects of O2 levels in the water, but lately something tells me they are more important than we give credit for.

I have experienced a brown goo like you are battling, though honestly I don't remember what lead to its eventual erradication. My newest 29 setup was disgusting for a while and if memory serves, a good filter cleaning, increased water surface movement and more traces helped, though who knows what role, if any, my actions played.

I am currently battleing my own issue with BBA seems to make no sense. I have high CO2 levels and plenty of every nutrient. GSA seems to develope with in 2 weeks yet I dose 6-8ppm PO4 week. All I am saying, take my rambling with a grain of salt.


----------



## Brad99

Guaiac_boy,
I just viewed your pics of the algae. That was the same problem I had with my 180 g setup after 1 month from setup.

Here's the before and after pics.

I had cut the lights down to 9 hours total on with a 3.5 hour break in the middle eg. on 9:00 - 13:00, off 13:00 - 16:30, on 16:30 - 21:30.

I also reduced my lights from 432 watts down to 324 watts.

I stopped dosing FE as well. I also cranked up the CO2 to about 35 ppm. (no noticable effects on the fish)

One other things which greatly helped was the 8 SAE's (true SAE's) I purchased. They pull off the algae strings and slurped it down like spaghetti....

The after photo was taken 5 days later.

I see you are in the middle of a 3 day black out. I'll be really interested is hearing/seeing the results!


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## BryceM

So....... blackout aborted. I had ordered some new fish from one of the on-line dealers. They weren't supposed to ship unit next week, but suprise, surprise they mixed up the order and shipped them out four days early.

I needed to do some shuffling of fish between the 46g and the 180g to make room for the new arrivals and needless to say, I had to unwrap the tank after only about 12 hours.

I then left for 2 days on a hunting trip. Interestingly, today the plants are looking much, much healthier. All the stemmies are putting on rapid growth, with good coloration and leaf size. Even R. macranda is throwing out some large, deep-red leaves albeit draped in slime algae. I hopeful that this indicates the tank is settling in. The mucous algae is still present so I'll still need to do a blackout in the next few days. I do think the plants will tollerate it better now. Maybe it'll be a blessing in disguise.


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## banderbe

Maybe I mised it.. but why aren't you willing to try Excel?

It worked for me. Wiped out thread/hair/fuzz, bba, bga. 

Miracle in a bottle if you ask me.


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## Jimbo205

> I then left for 2 days on a hunting trip. Interestingly, today the plants are looking much, much healthier.


 Okay, now I want to hear more about both the hunting trip AND the aquarium. (It sounds promising!)

Brad99, those before and after photos are great. Looks gorgeous now.


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## BryceM

banderbe said:


> Maybe I mised it.. but why aren't you willing to try Excel?
> 
> It worked for me. Wiped out thread/hair/fuzz, bba, bga.
> 
> Miracle in a bottle if you ask me.


I've never seen anything about the efficacy of excel for either diatoms or this slime algae. I did try it for a couple of months with my 46g tank and to be honest, I didn't see much benefit. I was probably only doing about a double dose, so I wasn't really pushing it.

From a biochemsitry background I get a little nervous about dumping in too much of the stuff. Aldehydes in general are pretty toxic.

What would you recommend for a dose quantity & frequency.


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## Jimbo205

rogar-Si


> So....... blackout aborted.


fish like the darkness. Sometimes they find it soothing. Especially in a new environment. They relax and feel safer when they think they can hide.

Oh. And if you tinker with the tank too much and the biological cycle - the algae gods can get even more angry (attempt at humor here)

and your buddies think you have suffered enough of that so far.

Your buddies want to see your happy plants making happy brand new fishies AFTER the darkness has been 'lifted' - 3 DAYS LATER (horrible attempt at subtlety).

Go Hunting! Your plants and fish will be fine!


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## BryceM

Blackout in progress - for real this time. I'm about 1/2 way through. I'll take the wraps off Sunday night & resume normal light on Monday.

Hopefully this will make a positive difference.


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## BryceM

So, the blackout is over. I took the wraps off tonight and the regular light cycle will kick in tomorrow morning. The whole tank looks kind of wierd. Interestingly, the plants continued to grow a little in the darkness. The new growth is almost white.

At first, I thought the blackout had accomplished nothing, since it looked about like it did before. After messing around a little in the tank though it became apparent that the algae was now dead, leaving mucous stuff just hanging around where it had been growing. I turned the pumps off, gave everything a good shake and did a big superficial vacuum once the gunk had settled out.

Things look pretty good now - not perfect, but if the tank stays happy - close enough. A few of the plants had completely melted away into nothing but I had expected that. They were the ones that were already on their way out before starting. A huge trim in the 46g tank resulted in some new stemmies too. Hopefully the added plant mass will help.

I'll post some before / after photos in a few days.


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## star rider

I find this interesting about the brown(diatom) algae.

I've tried black outs in the past (10 gallon) with little to no effect. however, 

I recently restarted the 10 gal as a growout for angel fry.
I had no light just residual light cast by other tanks, overhear bulbs..etc.
recently I added a light and wham..brown algae.

I'm thinking there is something to this blackout thing.


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## Jimbo205

> it became apparent that the algae was now dead


 yeah!!!!



> Interestingly, the plants continued to grow a little in the darkness. The new growth is almost white.


 Awesome! I am so glad to hear that. You have gone through so much frustration with this, I am very glad to hear that things are starting to work out for you.



> I'm thinking there is something to this blackout thing.


guaiac_boy, you actually understand the stuff that goes on with black outs and such (I only know it works); can you or Hoppy explain AGAIN - Why it works and how it works?

I remember reading about bacteria and a new tank having to cycle and establish itself, and until the tank is left alone to do just that - it could take a VERY LONG TIME to settle down.

Having actually gone through this on your dream tank (and we are enjoying it vicariously through you), how would you explain it?


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## BryceM

Well, its now a few days later. The soft, stringy, slime stuff is coming back, but at least its progression is slow enough to keep up with now. It comes off the plants easily with just a gentle swish. A _few _of the plants are starting to perk up a little bit. I posted some photos on the journal here.

I also decided to go with an RO unit. I chose the Kent Marine Hi-S model which supposedly does a good job with silica removal. If the problem is arising from either this or something else in the water, then it should help. I'll start off with a 50/50 mix of tap & RO. This should get my KH down in the 5 or 6 range, which is probably better for some of the plants anyway.

Jimbo, regarding your question about why a blackout works...... I guess I'm no expert on this, but I think it's nothing more complicated than starving the algae. One thing they absolutely need to survive is light. They don't have high levels of carbohydrate stores like higher plants. After 48 or 72 hours, their cellular metabolism essentially stops. Algae are very simple opportunistic organisms. They are very effecient at extracting nutrients from the water, but in the absense of light, they die pretty quickly.


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## AaronT

You've got every other gadget on that tank already so why not install a 15 watt UV sterilizer? I've used one on my 75 gallon tank for a while and when I take it off I notice a marked increase in algae in the tank. My dosing is fine, I think it's just something in my water as you supected with yours.


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## BryceM

AaronT said:


> You've got every other gadget on that tank already so why not install a 15 watt UV sterilizer?


Actually, I already have one. Gnaster recommended a 15W Aqua Ultraviolet model with a wiper and it's been running 24/7 since startup. It's on my closed-loop, so flow might be a little higher than optimal, but it's still within the recommended range per the manufacturer.

Things would have probaly been worse without it, but who knows. I think that GW would have been much easier to deal with than all this other stuff.

If you read between the lines, there's a pretty important lesson here for everyone. I have a 46g tank that was first set up on a very tight budget - DIY spiral compact flourescents, soilmaster select, DIY CO2 (at first - changed over to pressurized now). Today, it's still a much easier tank to deal with. For the most part it now stays algae-free and plants grow like crazy. When I go to the trouble to actually aquascape it, it looks fabulous.

Compare that with this current project. I've spent more than I'd like to admit (and much more than I'd like my wife to know about ) and it's been a headache ever since startup. I'm sure it will eventually get to a nice place (because I won't give up until it does), but cheap and simple is sometimes just as good as fancy and expensive.


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## wiste

> Actually, I already have one.


Technically, isn't a 15W rated for a maximum tank size of 100 gallons?


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## BryceM

If you ask reef people, bigger would be better...... but then, their goals are different. They are trying to kill parasites and bacteria. Algae is much easier to fry, and even with 15W you end up getting most of the free-swimming bugs anyway.


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## MatPat

guaiac_boy said:


> If you read between the lines, there's a pretty important lesson here for everyone. I have a 46g tank that was first set up on a very tight budget - DIY spiral compact flourescents, soilmaster select, DIY CO2 (at first - changed over to pressurized now). Today, it's still a much easier tank to deal with. For the most part it now stays algae-free and plants grow like crazy. When I go to the trouble to actually aquascape it, it looks fabulous.


The "lesson" I learned from "reading between the lines" is more light is not always better. You have much more wiggle room when it comes to ferts and CO2 when you use lower light levels


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## ombcat

Recently, I re did a 10 gallon planted tank, new substrate and the works, added lots of live plants, plenty of ferts, and within two weeks the whole tank was covered in brown algae. I keep plenty of nerite snails, so I added 5 and within a few days, no brown algae. Never has returned.
ombcat


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## banderbe

MatPat said:


> The "lesson" I learned from "reading between the lines" is more light is not always better. You have much more wiggle room when it comes to ferts and CO2 when you use lower light levels


I feel pretty strongly about this subject so I am posting a reply..

I found when I went from 2.25 wpg up to 4.5 wpg on my 29 gallon that I had LESS algae problems.

I believe in the theory that says algae growth is inversely proportional to the rate and health of plant growth.

I also am not sure I agree with the idea that you have more wiggle room.. you just have more time before things get really fouled up..

On the other hand MatPat you have been doing this longer than me.. and I defer/bow to your experience..


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## cgm246

*Brown Algae Solution.*

Well, my 2 cents...I tried less water changes. Went from 2-3 a week to 1 a week. No luck. Tried adding ottos...They attacked my Discus, they went byebye. tried the snail thing...No luck. Lazy. Ok, so I went into a LFS last week, saw small/young (common?) plecos, got one. saw the last two living fallowella cats out of many in a tank, also small/young got the two, and a bunch of the tiny snails (got 10 or so for free) that hitchhike a ride in on the incoming plants from the wholesalers. After a week and daily checking of the tank, My algae problem has been 70% eradicated. This was after all the trying of blackouts, the leser water changes, lesser feedings, etc. I guess it goes to show that there are many different ways to do it, but trial and error is the only solution. Thanks!


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## Jimbo205

I still love the photos of your tank and your fish. 

Thank you for the explanation of blackouts. Simple and to the point. I love that. I am glad that it is working for you. 

I understand your theory about the water chemistry. What did you think about the 'cycling'? Or the floating plants? 

There are so many approaches and theories. It just sounds like you are doing SO MUCH work. 

If you are flat broke by this point, you can still get Diana Walstad's book at the library. The price on the link at the top - really is a good deal. And you are young and smart enough to absorb and understand it all on the first reading (?). Me - I only had to read it and re-read it until it started to sink in. 

I am still testing her theories one at a time. I would love to hear what you think or feel about her theories and or approaches. Some of it may make you chuckle. 

Again, I love your latest photos of tanks, plants and fish.


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## slickwillislim

The brown algae in my tank is still kicking my butt. It grows back about as fast as I can suck it out. Everything seems to be doing fine and the algae comes off easily it just looks soooo bad. I added som more dwarf hair grass in the front. Hopefully it will go away.... Keep us updated. The only thing that worked so far was lowering the lights. But it still grows just not quite as fast... Blackout killed it all and then it started to grow back in tiny patches and I guess I missed a few.... grrr...


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## BryceM

It's coming back with a vengence in my tank too. Current plan - keep upping CO2 every other day or so with the pH controller. I'm using Floruish Excel now too - 80ml two days ago, another 60ml today. I'm also transitioning to 1/2 RO 1/2 tap water to lower KH (any maybe silicates).

All in all, I'm about tired of it. I know I'll eventually win, but for now it still looks like garbage, a very expensive pile of garbage. It's makes quite a statement, front and center in my living room.

Maybe the plants are looking better. Maybe it's not as bad as before. Maybe this is just wishful thinking. Anyone have any better ideas? About another month of this and it will be a complete overhaul & substrate changeout. Patience only gets you so far.


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## yxberia

I have just redone everything for 2 of my 4 feet tanks. I have new tank syndrome with diatoms on leaves, sand and tank wall. So I decided to:

1. Put a small bag Phos-zorb (AP) which arbsorpe both Phosphate and Silicate. 
2. Dose Stress-Zyme to mature the aquarium once a week.
3. Water is changed 80% once a week.

After 2 weeks diatoms start to disappear. Phos-zorb only stayed in canister filter until most diatoms clear up and plants start to show deficiency, they turns pale green/yellow.


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## melonman

Im having the same prob with diatoms in my new tank


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## Jimbo205

This is what I have learned so far (amongst many other things).

High Tech = :frusty:



> All in all, I'm about tired of it. I know I'll eventually win, but for now it still looks like garbage, a very expensive pile of garbage.





> Patience only gets you so far.


Guaiac_boy, I wish the best for you and your tank.

It seems you have tried almost every High Tech method there may be.

Have you tried any Low Tech methods yet?

What could it hurt? (There may be something to Low Tech methods.) I just hope it (or something) works for you and your aquarium.


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## DataGuru

Ramshorn snails love brown algae. My Endlers also eat it.


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## Freemann

Overdriven tanks present similar problems (dust algae, Bga and such).
What I suggest is this:
Lower light period if 4 w/gal to 6 hours a day
Less WC 30% a week in small amounts maybe divided in 3 days of the week, this way the biological circle of the tank can stabilise and not interfered with (care should be given that no Chlorine is introduced in the tank with WC, meaning remove Cl before water comes in the tank, activated carbon can do this), bacterial population in the tank (substrate and all) is of the outmost importance.
No more than 2 ppm daily addition of NO3, 2 ppm PO4 weekly, never all 14 ppm NO3 at once same applies for PO4), (dosing pumps help a lot to do this worry free, stability is the trick here).
Additions of Iron, TE every other day (observe leaves and add until no yellowing is observed anymore then you can stop for 2-4 days and start again or when yellowing is observed again). If dry Fe TE is added do not dilute in water but add in dry form.
Mg, a bit just to get it in if it is missing but not much.
Snails and algae eaters can help so why not add them.
CO2, around .6 less than the value of the overnight degaussed tank water.
Some fast growers that you can trim or leave in the tank according to overall conditions.
Use small diameter hose guided by hand which you can move like a fin at the same time to help dislodge and suck detritus from the surface of substrate in case too much is accumulated to relive tank of excess organic load.
Fluff plants to remove as much of algae, detritus you can (I remove algae from non sensitive plants by raping my thumb with a very fine plastic cloth mess keeping it there with a rubber band and rubbing the leaves perfect for dust algae removal).
Keep water temperature lower than 24 C higher temperatures tend to accelerate decomposition and stress lots of plants.
Instead of blackouts you can simply let the tank with no artificial light for 2 days a week for some time to slow down all including algae.
Slow growing plants are healthy plants, fast growing ones are full of water and brittle.

My 2 cents
Freemann


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## Beasts

I feel like a broken record today (I have submitted several posts to this effect) but here goes... I had that same brown slime, especially all over my driftwood, and you could see it disappear more and more everyday after I added three Farlowellas to my 400 gallon aquarium. The driftwood looks excellent (four large pieces) now and the Farlowellas devour that stuff wherever they can find it. They do work the plants and seem to have a much softer mouth than plecostomous. Just as with otocinclus, don't get too many as they aren't happy without their natural foods. And why not add additional variety by using SAEs instead of more otocinclus? You would be more likely to control a wider variety of algaes in the future as well. 
I guess I'm a natural ecosystem kind of guy. If I can use a fish or additional higher plants to deal death and destruction to algae and have a more permanent and natural solution I would prefer that to the manipulation of artificial chemicals. Heres to the influence of Diana Walstad.
Beasts


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## Craig Tarvin

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I think that just about every recommendation has been given in this thread, haha.

I get this algae every single time I start a tank. It always goes away on it's own after a couple weeks. After reading this thread, I think a big difference between yourself and I, is that when a tank isn't doing well I tend to ignore it. Other than feeding the fish I usually try not to look at it, haha. Stems grow to the top, curve over and start blocking light. I usually keep the light down to a couple hours a day. By the time I trim the stems down, things are back to normal.


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## BryceM

Again, I appreciate everyone's input.

OK, 3 medium-size SAE's, 100 Amanos, & 24 Otos are already in the tank. I'm starting to see lots of ramshorn snails too and they actually seem to be eating the stuff.

If I add any more critters I'll have nothing but algae eaters in there. I did check substrate phosphate levels and they were equal to the water column levels at about 2 ppm so I don't think I have contaminated Eco Complete.

There is no chlorine as the water is from a private well.

New this week is chlorosis on the new growth and older leaves are turning yellow with some green veins. I have been adding more and more RO water and the GH and KH are gradually coming down. The goal is GH 8, KH 5, maybe lower eventually. My absolute Mg level is still around 6 or 7 ppm, but the Ca/Mg ratio is now up to about 6:1 or 7:1 from it's original 3.5:1. I might try some additional Fe and Mg, but I want to make changes slowly. Changing too many things at once can make it very hard to sort out what's going on. Currently GH is 10, KH 9, NO3 25, PO4 2.0 (all per Lamotte), dosing ~ 1ml TMG and 0.5ml Flourish Fe/gallon/week.


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## banderbe

How/why did you decide on a GH of 8 and KH 5?


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## BryceM

No reason except that's about what I had in Massachusetts after adding a bit of Equilibrium. It's also about what my other tank is at and it's doing quite well at the moment. Getting back to something familar seems to be a good idea.

Probably I'll end up going with KH 3, GH 5 or 6 eventually. I keep mostly tetras and just about all of the "harder" plants do slightly better at the lower KH values.


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## houseofcards

_I did check substrate phosphate levels and they were equal to the water column levels at about 2 ppm so I don't think I have contaminated Eco Complete._
Again a long shot, but when you tested the eco did you simply take some tank water from the lower water column? When I had contaminated Eco I scooped some out and added some of the tank water and let it sit for a day or so in a cup. When I did this my po4 levels were off the charts.


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## BryceM

I used a syringe & spinal needle (6" long) to slowly draw off water from the bottom of the tank.

One thing I've learned from testing phosphate is that a very small quantity of contaminant can give you VERY high PO4 readings. If you used a household cup, the phosphate residue from dish soap could easily falsely elevate the reading.


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## houseofcards

guaiac_boy said:


> I used a syringe & spinal needle (6" long) to slowly draw off water from the bottom of the tank.
> 
> One thing I've learned from testing phosphate is that a very small quantity of contaminant can give you VERY high PO4 readings. If you used a household cup, the phosphate residue from dish soap could easily falsely elevate the reading.


Well that's good to know. I personally have my own "aquarium only use" plastic cups that have never been exposed to soap, etc. The wife doesn't want me using the "human use" cups for the aquarium.

At least you can eliminate the eco from the equation.


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## BryceM

An update. Things are slowwwwly starting to improve. Plant growth is noticably healthier. There isn't any algae where the plants are really taking off. One exception would be the fine-leaf plants such as Didiplis that always seem to catch the floating debris and algae. The moss still looks awful. Slow-growers like Crinum calamistratum & anubias still have a thick layer of slime junk hanging from them.

What changed? It's hard to say, since I've currently got lots in flux. My theories: #1 - Time. It takes new setups a while to find the "sweet spot". #2 - slow change to reconstituted RO water. The eco complete is still raising the KH and GH by 2 or 3 degrees over a week. Hopefully this "bonus" fades soon. #3 - CO2 levels are much higher than before. Probably this is the main reason for any improvement. #4 - the MH's are now only on for 3.5 hrs/day (total 3.3 wpg). The T-5's (0.7 wpg) cover the other 7 hours.

Is nirvana approaching? I can only hope so.


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## heidisue

oh no! After a long time away, I was so sad to read this tale about your beautiful tank. 

Not to be a hippy, but what about floating a willow branch? It wouldn't block too much light, depending how you position it, and it secretes natural algaecide, no? At this point it would seem anything is worth trying....

Good luck and condolences,
Heidi


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## Jimbo205

> Not to be a hippy, but what about floating a willow branch? It wouldn't block too much light, depending how you position it, and it secretes natural algaecide, no? At this point it would seem anything is worth trying....


 That sounds like SUCH a GOOD IDEA.

Guaiac_boy, you can't resist that idea, can you? Wouldn't that be great, if that did it for you and your beautiful tank? (Yes, still beautiful. I just hate hearing you torture yourself.)


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## BryceM

I feel compelled to share an update with everyone. Hopefully this is the final chapter on the brown-slime algae.

It's 100% gone.

I attribute my success to 4 things:

1. I increased CO2 levels
2. I started using reconstitued RO water
3. I started doing 20% every-other-day WC's
4. I increased my macro dosing significantly

I'm not sure which thing made the biggest difference, but I suspect they all helped. I made the changes sort of all at the same time, so it's a bit hard to sort out. Deep down, I think maybe I was under-dosing the macros. The actual quantities required by a tank this size are surprising. 1/2 pound of KNO3 will only last two months - amazing isn't it? So much for my "lifetime supply."

The value of using reconstitued RO water is debatable, but the water around here is known for high iron, flouride, and phosphate levels.

Once I made the above changes, the brown algae went from slowly receeding to completey gone in 2 or 3 days. I've never seen something turn around so quickly. I'm still not sure how it would have vanished so quickly.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help. Hopefully this journey will be of some value to somone else "out there".


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## Jimbo205

> The actual quantities required by a tank this size are surprising. 1/2 pound of KNO3 will only last two months - amazing isn't it? So much for my "lifetime supply."
> 
> The value of using reconstitued RO water is debatable, but the water around here is known for high iron, flouride, and phosphate levels.
> 
> Once I made the above changes, the brown algae went from slowly receeding to completey gone in 2 or 3 days. I've never seen something turn around so quickly.


I am very glad that things turned around for you. It would be nice to know for sure what fixed it for you. I would hate for someone else in the same situation to have to re-invent the wheel and try it all.

Can we see a photo? hoto: or a link to the new photos of it all?


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## MrSanders

Just curious to see where you ended up at as far as dosage of your macros and micros? I am also curious to see what levels of Ca and Mg your reconstituting your RO water to?

Thanks  and glad to hear that things are turning around..... I know how frustrating it can be, i can only hope I have such luck....


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## BryceM

MrSanders,

At present, I'm doing this:

*Mon, Wed, Sat:* 20% WC with RO water, then 8.0 ppm NO3 and 2.0 ppm PO4
*Tue, Thur, Sun:* 60ml of TMG & 30 ml of Flourish Fe

I'm adding NaHCO3 to keep KH between 3 and 5 dH.
I add Greg Watsons GH booster to Keep GH between 5 and 7 dH.
I occasionally check the Ca/Mg ratio and add MgSO4-7H2O when the ratio gets above 5:1.

As soon as the quantities of NaHCO3 and GH booster become consistent, I'll check levels much less often. For now, the Eco Complete is still adding quite a bit of CaCO3 on its own.

Jimbo,

I'm doing a bit of a re-scape at the moment. When it's done, I'll post some photos in the journal thread.


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## slickwillislim

So in the final defeat of the algae you did nothing with your light levels?

I have only managed to control and get rid of it by lowering the light. The problem with this is some of my plants start to suffer. I hope I can find a cure like you did. I tried the extra macros. I was adding a tsp and a half of kno3 and decent 1/2 of po4 every other day. I dont think thats going to be the key for me. I also dont think its the tap water because there are no problems in your other tank or my other tank. The two that probably helped and i am trying is boosting the co2, and more partial water changes. 

I can't wait to see some algae free pictures of your tank. I am glad you succeeded in defeating this algae and hopefully your struggle will help me conquer my own algae.


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## BryceM

Yeah, the light never changed much. I cut it back to 9 hours of T-5's (39x4W) and 3-1/2 hours of MH's (150Wx3), but that was several weeks ago. It was almost as if the tank decided it suddenly wanted to be healthy. The change took place over no more than a 72 hour period. The frustrating part about all this is that there is still quite a bit of art required when we're all running around asking science to provide the answers. There are simply too many variables to allow for the "solution".

Just yesterday I increased the light period to 10 hours of T-5's and 4 hours of MH's. We'll see what happens. I'm having a minor issue with green thread algae, which I've never truly eradicated from my other tank. It isn't too bad, but it does get annoying. At least the amanos seem to be keeping the lower 1/2 of the tank mostly clear of it.

What I do know is that if you keep after it, and stay to a few simple principles, you'll eventually win. The trick is to not be satisfied until it's how you want it. I always knew it would eventually come around.


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## Jimbo205

> It was almost as if the tank decided it suddenly wanted to be healthy.


 Do you ever feel like the answer is staring you right in the face? 
I keep reading about all this chemistry and physics with the water and the lights. But....


> I also dont think its the tap water because there are no problems in your other tank or my other tank.


It's right on the tip of my tongue and I can't find it currently in my books about cycling. 
But somewhere I read that a new tank will never finish cycling until you just stop messing with it and leave it alone. I wish I could find where I read that......

Honestly, I paid a REALLY GOOD price for Diana Walstad's book. I would post the actual price, but am afraid if I did that the incredibly good price would change.

Honestly, I would love to hear or read your thoughts, feelings and opinions about her ideas in her book. 
With your background especially, I would to hear your reaction. I think there are answers in the field of Biology and Microbiology that Chemistry and Physics do not quite do the same job with.

As always, I look forward to hearing (and seeing) the success in your tank and in your attempt to find answers to the 'mystery' of your tank.

hoto:


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## Tominizer

Congrats !!! 

I'm fairly new to planted tanks, but I'm also trying to follow the Walstad book of low tech planted aquariums. However with that being said, I don't think an aqua-scaped tank with specificly featured *stuff* is going to work well with the low tech approach outlined in this book.............. mind you that's only my in-experienced take on it so far after getting most of the way through that excellent book. But one think I've noted is that the headaches of those setting up and achieving stable NPT seem to be a lot less then the high-tech tanks........... then again, it all depends on your goals and what you want for your tank.


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## agy

BryceM said:


> This latest stuff is what I described earlier when I thought I was winning vs. the brown algae. The classical stuck-on-the-leaf diatoms that are a pain, but easily rubbed off turned into this junk. There are still a few diatoms around, but this is the main issue at the moment. It looks like a filamentous, very soft, brown algae. It kind of looks like snot strung all over the tank, pardon my french.
> 
> It doesn't have a real strong smell - certainly nothing like BGA. It's not foul, but not exactly plesant either. It's certainly most prevalent around the substrate in areas with little light. I'm starting to wonder if the eco complete isn't somehow a factor. My SMS tank is perfectly happy at the moment.
> 
> I'd much rather get the tank transitioned over to something that I recognize like GSA or even BBA (never thought I'd say that!). I know how to kill that stuff.
> 
> I'll try massive light and CO2 for a few days. Worst case scenario is that I need to do a 3 day blackout at the end of it.
> 
> Per the algae finder - grey slime supposedly shows up with low nitrate levels and poor curent. I suppose this is possible, but it would mean that my Lamotte kit would need to be off by a considerable margin. I haven't calibrated it in an age. I just got all new reagents too. The tank hasn't been under 15 ppm NO3 since being set up and I've been checking 2-3 times per week. There is enough current in the tank to impress just about anyone - I don't think that's it.
> 
> Maybe I'll get some distilled water to do a little test kit checking.
> 
> My suspicion is that things will eventually work themselves out. As far as I can tell, the tank parameters should be ok:
> 
> CO2 - just calibrated my controller again, should be plenty
> circulation - WAY more than in my 46g, which looks great at the moment
> nitrates - between 15-20 ppm per Lamotte
> phosphates - between 2 and 3 ppm per Lamotte
> KH - 14 at the moment, moves upward after WC's - probably due to eco complete
> GH - usually about 3-4 degrees more than KH, Ca/Mg ratio is about 3.5:1 per Lamotte
> Temp - 76
> light - 7 hrs/day 3.3 wpg
> micros - TMG & Flourish Fe every other day 0.5 cc/gal/week TMG and 0.5 cc/gal/week Flourish Fe
> UV sterilizer 15W which runs 24/7 - helping or hurting - who knows?
> go figure.....


I'm tired too fight with this algea 

Possibly You are right about Eco Complete substrate.
I have diatoma where Eco substrate present with gravel and with same water(not so bad tap water) in second tank just with gravel no any diatoms.

Maybe Eco Complete is full with silicates ?
Also they don't tell, but thsi substrate realy buffer water and raise PH, can last over 1 month and more.


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## JustLikeAPill

I notice that I get these when I slack off and the organics are allowed to build up. Normally I just remove a spot here and there and try to be more diligent. I came home recently and my instructions to turn the AC "up" were interpreted as "off." Tank was at 95 degrees for about five days. Massive die off of plants, especially moss (which previously covered EVERYTHING, therefore EVERYTHING was covered in a rotten layer when I got home), organics through the roof, this stuff was everywhere. I just tore it down and started over it was so bad. 


I do not know what it is. I think it might be red algae, not diatoms? Otos won't touch it. Not mine, at least. 

Just keep removing it as much as possible and changing water. I think removing organics will do you more good than trying to tweak nutrients.


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