# Emergency: MASS DIE OFF - DO? What else?



## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Things were going very well for my tank - the tank's plant growth is explosive, to include healthy growth among sunset hygro, e. quad, ferns, l. aromatica, H. corymbosa, h. difformis, hornwort, moss - no plant has "tanked," and if anything, growth is _too_ explosive - pearling like crazy, dense growth, and pruning is a necessity to allow the fish in the tank room to swim, and under-plants to get enough light. Algae under control decent, with hornwort seemingly doing its job. The 10 tank was stocked with 9 white clouds, 2 juvenile platies, and 2 adult platies. I know this is fairly heavy, but as the tank was extremely heavy in plants, the plants were pearling, going by a rule of thumb of 1" of fish for every 12" of surface area, I have an available 18" of fish, so we were close. My plan was to grow the platies out and transfer all platies to another tank.

The adult platies came to me ripely pregnant. Prior to one of them giving birth, I noticed she was at the surface, gasping. I had not thought I had a DO issue, because the plants were screaming pearling so well, a mere couple of hours into their photoperiod. Additionally, no other fish exhibited O2 stress overnight or in the morning. Finally, I had seen behavior like this previously, in pregnant fish, and in checking with my local LFS, I was told that yes, this can be normal pre-birth behavior - the fish is stressed, but naturally so, in prep for giving birth.

The platy gave birth to several fry. Then the other adult female gave birth to several fry, for a total of 12 or so fry. Within the last few days, I have noticed more of a mass sign of DO stress - most of the platies at the surface - and immediately installed an aerator.

I began losing fish. One white cloud, first, was found in the dense hornwort floating carpet. Then, one by one, all the adult platies died, after skimming the surface. I have checked and rechecked the water parameters, and they show NH4=0, NO2=0, NO3=10 (10 this morning, on recheck). I have since lost a few minnows, and as of this morning, all fish are exhibiting surface gasping.

I am at a complete loss as to what is going on. I do not see any signs of disease in these fish, but as of this very moment, all of the fish are doing something I've never seen - they are cramming themselves either completely around the Hagen mini-elite: I'm not talking about staying in the outflow, but literally, cramming between the Hagen back and the glass surface, or "resting" on top of the filter, or crammed between the side of the filter and the glass, which is a mere fish-body's width from the side glass. Or, they are en masse cramming themselves in a tight inch or two in the top front left corner of water, away from both the aerator and the filter. In addition, I just minutes ago lost another white cloud.

I can't figure this out, and at a total loss! I believe I am going to lose the entire fish stock in this tank, and have no idea why. Can anyone offer some (emergency) thoughts? Is this possible H2S outgassing? I do not smell anything funky, except for what I am accustomed to smelling in GDA outbreak, which I do have on the front glass.


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

fish TB perhaps ? with your plants that healthy it means the water is way good -


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I didn't see if you said you were adding CO2. If you are, perhaps it is too much. what is the pH of your water?


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

HeyPK said:


> I didn't see if you said you were adding CO2. If you are, perhaps it is too much. what is the pH of your water?


It's an NPT, no CO2, in fact, no ferts at all - save fish waste and fish food. The water has been stable for quite a while - 0,0, 6-10, pH right around 7. I fear I might have introduced a poison inadvertently (I'm careful, hands, implements, etc., but still wondering), or, some kind of viral/bacterial/parasitic infestation that I can't yet see. I've watched carefully, haven't been able to detect any sign of sickness. I did a 50% water change, they're still all at the surface, corners, gasping.


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## Karebear (Oct 6, 2008)

When fish start stressing or dying start on the water changes to save the fish, up to 50% daily. It is possible to use cleaners, air fresheners, or solvents in the room and it kill the fish. Could this have happened? This does not sound like fish TB, more like something in the water.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

I think the best thing to do in this emergency is to get the fish out of that tank into some sort of temporary set-up.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks, fokks.

Unfortunately HeyPK, I'm tapped on available tanks - I just finished an Ick outbreak in my 20, and have stabilized my school of cardinal tetras after a shaky start, so I'd be loathe to introduce these fish into the 20, if they do have something. I did do a 50% water change and will continue daily.

We don't use any chemicals in the house, so that seems to be ruled out. This is weird, but is it possible that cut _flowers_ can do something? A friend brought us several cut bunches of narcissi, and for several days after, they were definitely outgassing - is there something weird in cut flowers, any stretch of the imagination at all?


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## rodrigaj (Aug 17, 2008)

Do a 50% water change and change the filter media.

I've seen this happen when you do an uprooting without shutting off the filter. The filter can not handle the biomass.

By all parameters the water appears to be ok, but the filter is robbing it of oxygen. 

If after a 50% water change and filter change the problem still persist, I'm at a loss.


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Can you get an air pump, tube and airstone and deliver emergency aeration to the tank? Also, you could leave the lights on for 24 hours so that the plants kept producing oxygen. However, I have the feeling that this is not an oxygen issue, but some kind of chemical poisoning. Are there invertebrates in the tank showing any distress?


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

HeyPK said:


> Can you get an air pump, tube and airstone and deliver emergency aeration to the tank? Also, you could leave the lights on for 24 hours so that the plants kept producing oxygen. However, I have the feeling that this is not an oxygen issue, but some kind of chemical poisoning. Are there invertebrates in the tank showing any distress?


PK, I have an airstone running, and lights are on currently at 10 hours per day. I'm afraid I'm also leaning with your reasoning - the plants are pearling like crazy, even without aeration, so the water is supersaturated with O2. I just don't know what poison could have been introduced - totally flummoxed on this, as we don't use chemical cleaners, aerosols, etc., in the house, and I'm very careful to avoid contamination. This is basically a covered tank to boot - versacover is a necessity, because the hood is a bare-bulb reptile hood with spiral CFL's.

I feel so sad about these fish - these minnows were my son's first fishes. I'm doing daily 50% changes, and hoping for the best. Appreciate your thoughts so far - and any others you might have, thanks for those as well.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Duh - can't believe I forgot to mention this - yes, PK, the tank has many pond snails, ramshorns and, I think, at least one assassin snail. They seem to be fine. 

I'd be surprised if the mass birth of the platies' fry caused an O2 crash, particularly in the face of the plant pearling - correct?


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## surpera1 (Feb 18, 2009)

do you have young children - maybe they put something in the tank ?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If you're still seeing fish in distress, I might suggest 90% WC's every day. Better yet, move them to a plastic bucket or garbage can. They can live happily in there for many months if necessary.

Short of moving them to a new aquarium big WC's should help dilute whatever toxin is bothering them. The usual suspects here would be chlorine, chloramine (this is a perfect time for water companies to add this to their systems), CO2, hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, gill flukes, and bacterial disease.

I agree with Paul - this doesn't sound like an infection. What is your water source and what conditioner do you use? What is you water temp? How reliable are your test kits?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Sorry to hear about this. It seemed like your tank was doing so well, and that you are doing everything right. I don't see a quick fish die-off like this as a "routine" oxygen, ammonia, disease, or H2S problem. 

Because it happened so quickly, it could be an exotic and very potent fish toxin released by algae or something else in the tank. I would either remove fish from the tank completely or add charcoal to the filter. The charcoal will slowly remove organic compounds like toxins released by algae, etc.

Good Luck!


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

BryceM said:


> If you're still seeing fish in distress, I might suggest 90% WC's every day. Better yet, move them to a plastic bucket or garbage can. They can live happily in there for many months if necessary.
> 
> Short of moving them to a new aquarium big WC's should help dilute whatever toxin is bothering them. The usual suspects here would be chlorine, chloramine (this is a perfect time for water companies to add this to their systems), CO2, hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, gill flukes, and bacterial disease.
> 
> I agree with Paul - this doesn't sound like an infection. What is your water source and what conditioner do you use? What is you water temp? How reliable are your test kits?


Thanks, both of you.

Bryce, I bought a 10 gallon tank, and have placed them in that with a nano-heater, aeration stone, and nano-filter. I will do water changes in the plant-only setup, now, at 90% daily, and hope for the best.

I wasn't changing the tank water at all, because it is an NPT, but I was topping off with Chicago tap water treated with Seachem Prime, though this doesn't treat chloramines. I don't think Chicago uses chloramines, though I could be wrong. Additionally, this is the same supply I use in all my tanks, and I don't have issues in any other tanks, so I wouldn't expect this is the issue here (did a 50% change in my 20H hi-tech a few days ago, all life is thriving, as usual behavior, etc).

I have no idea how accurate my test kits are, since I've never calibrated them, but I do have a Seachem "Ammonia Alert" drop-check indicator, which is supposed to distinguish NH4+ from NH3. The indicator always shows zero free ammonia. I do worry it might be a disease.

Diana, if it is a case of some bio-toxin from algae (or something else - can snails release a toxin?), is this tank essentially cooked? The only algae I can see is GDA, on the front pane, and I cannot detect any H2S, even when poking or agitating the soil.

As a final point - the tank is loaded with pond, ramshorn and possibly other snail species. They are doing really well - growing large, no detected die off, etc. - wouldn't these be susceptible, possibly more so, to any toxic issue?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

If it were a real O2 crash, the snails would also be clustering at the surface.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

HeyPK said:


> If it were a real O2 crash, the snails would also be clustering at the surface.


OK, thanks - that's helpful and rules that out, since the snails are everywhere. I didn't really think O2, ultimately, because of the pearling I described earlier. I'm still puzzled, more and more, precisely _because_ the snails are doing so seemingly well. But there is no denying - every single fish was as tightly compacted at the corners as was possible, almost like a breeding run in a farm tank.

I lost one more minnow, but so far, at least, in the water-only QT tank, the fish are at least swimming and not hovering at the surface.

One little fry remains in the "poisoned" tank. I have tried to get him out, but so far, no luck. The irony is that he is swimming - freely - and I wonder why he alone, out of all other fish, is swimming.

I am so saddened by the loss of these fish, as always, and hope I can turn this around.



surpera1 said:


> do you have young children - maybe they put something in the tank ?


Surpera, sorry, didn't address this. Yes, we do have a son, but I trust it isn't this - I asked if he was playing around the tank, putting his fingers in, possibly, etc., and he said no, and he would be truthful about it. But it was an early thought.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Sometimes it just happens. I just did a 40% w/c in my 125g. I had 3 glow light danios that just died. This is the 2nd time this has happened. Every other fish in the tank is partying and saying "Woohoo, a water change!" Sometimes you just can't figure it out. I even have spawning behavior. So weird!.. and sad!


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> Sometimes it just happens. I just did a 40% w/c in my 125g. I had 3 glow light danios that just died. This is the 2nd time this has happened. Every other fish in the tank is partying and saying "Woohoo, a water change!" Sometimes you just can't figure it out. I even have spawning behavior. So weird!.. and sad!


I guess my main concern at this point is whether this tank is essentially cooked, or I can restore it to use with x% water changes over x days, etc. As Diana said, it was going so well and I am pretty disappointed, beyond my sadness over the loss of these fish in my care. In particular, I was deeply impressed with the plant health, with so little maintenance (and only the willpower to _stay away_. not easy for me). As I pm'ed Diana, these plants pearl more than my 20H, hi-tech, a true surprise to me.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

FYI Prime does treat chloramines. At least the seachem prime I buy does.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> FYI Prime does treat chloramines. At least the seachem prime I buy does.


Ah, right, thanks - I was confusing it with another of their products, that just deals with Chlorine.

(edit - just looked it up, it's Chlorguard. I use Prime).


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

UPDATE: Probably 80% of the fish are again hovering at the surface, gasping. This is in the QT tank with nothing but clean water and aeration, nano-filter, 78F, their original tank temp. I expect all the fish are on their way out. 

Does the fact they're skimming in this completely clean QT suggest any specific etiology of pathology to anyone? Fried gills from toxins, or more likely a disease - does this suggest one over the other?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

One thing to remember about pearling---There is increased pearling right after a water change if you use water fresh from the tap. This water has more dissolved gasses in it because it has been under pressure, and when the pressure is relieved, these gasses come out of solution. They can diffuse into the plants' air passageways and make the plant seem to be producing more oxygen, but it really isn't.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

HeyPK said:


> One thing to remember about pearling---There is increased pearling right after a water change if you use water fresh from the tap. This water has more dissolved gasses in it because it has been under pressure, and when the pressure is relieved, these gasses come out of solution. They can diffuse into the plants' air passageways and make the plant seem to be producing more oxygen, but it really isn't.


Thanks, PK, I did know that - but I never changed the water. In fact, with a massively planted tank, and very little circulation, I was surprised to see the pearling that I did. Daily, within a much shorter period of time (when compared to my 20H, hi-tech, hi-light setup), the plants start rocking O2.

From TPT.net, I am very concerned I may have introduced a waterborne infection with the addition of the two pregnant LFS platies, a few weeks ago. I'm also concerned that my transferring of hornwort from the 10 gallon NPT to my 20H may have just infected everything, which would be devastating - I've worked really hard to sustain my cardinals in the 20H, who just themselves underwent an outbreak of ick and we came out the other side. I feel awful, that my naivete in not QT'ing 2 platies from Petco may have just irresponsibly wiped out dozens of fish.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I dunno. This behavior seems a little strange, but it seems that you're doing everything possible. Continue with as much aeration as you can manage. Activated carbon is a great idea and should remove any toxins.

I introduced some non-QT'd fish into my 180g tank once and lost somewhere around 60 fish within a week. These were well established (and expensive) fish that had been perfectly healthy for many months. The only abnormal behavior they exhibited was death. Perfectly fine one minute - dead the next. That's the last time I ever put something in without doing a proper QT. Your problem doesn't seem infectious, but you never know.

It really sounds like ammonia toxicity and gill damage to me. You're sure you're using Prime at the correct dose? BTW, I'd be astonished if Chicago didn't use chloramines.

Ich is also enormously contagious. You're sure you haven't accidentally introduced it into the new tank while treating the infected tank? Fish don't always demonstrate the classic little spots.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

BryceM said:


> I dunno. This behavior seems a little strange, but it seems that you're doing everything possible. Continue with as much aeration as you can manage. Activated carbon is a great idea and should remove any toxins.
> 
> I introduced some non-QT'd fish into my 180g tank once and lost somewhere around 60 fish within a week. These were well established (and expensive) fish that had been perfectly healthy for many months. The only abnormal behavior they exhibited was death. Perfectly fine one minute - dead the next. That's the last time I ever put something in without doing a proper QT. Your problem doesn't seem infectious, but you never know.
> 
> ...


Bryce, I'm sorry to update that all fish have expired. The last few remaining minnows were twitching badly and starting to belly up, and I euthanized them as I thought they'd been through too much already.

In terms of the tank itself, as this was an NPT, I didn't use Prime. I did initially, but then really wanted to follow the NPT program through, in order to know my variables, should I need to know them, if something went awry. I planted heavily - extremely so - and the Seachem Ammonia (NH3) alert never showed any free ammonia in the tank.

Thinking on your comment on ick contamination, it's entirely possible I introduced the ick into the tank - I've made a lot of newbie errors, having only begun the hobby as a Christmas present to our son, and though I thought I was very careful to not cross-contaminate implements, etc., it may be that I did, in fact, introduce ick into the tank - I've transferred plants from time to time (though don't remember how long before the first sign of ick outbreak in my 20), don't believe I've used the same net, etc., but it's possible. Sadly, now, I just don't know what happened - none of the fish exhibited any external signs, only their behavior, and they expired so quickly.

I don't know whether to break this tank down and start over, or keep it as a plant-only tank for months, trying to keep the plants alive and well, then trying again. Diana, Bryce, anyone - if you have any thoughts this way, appreciated as well.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Ah, bummer. It's very tempting in these situations to throw in the towel and move on to kittens or puppies. Resist that urge. It doesn't really sound like you were negligent. Sometimes in this hobby things just go belly-up, literally. Keep trying and you'll eventually end up with the aquarium of your dreams.

In the off chance that it is ich, the parasite requires a living host to complete its life cycle. Leaving the tank fish-free for a few weeks (4-6) will ensure that all of the remaining organisms have died.

I'd recommend just keeping the tank set up as-is, focusing on the needs of the plants for a few weeks. Once things seem to be stable and happy, try introducing fish - a few at a time. It is enormously important is to purchase fish from a reputable vendor. There are only three or four vendors in a two-state area that I trust enough to purchase fish from. The quality and health of the stock makes all the difference in the world.

One thing though - you MUST use a good dechlorinator when making waterchanges with city water. Whatever you use, you need to use it 100% of the time. It needs to be effective against both chlorine and chloramines. Seachem's Prime is a quality product. Chloramines alone are probably responsible for as many fish deaths as all the newbie mistakes in the world.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks Bryce - for the expertise, and the encouragement. I'm not tossing in the towel, and realize it's a learning curve - just consider my stewardship of living things really important, if I take them in, so really saddens me to lose them.

Don't recall if I mentioned this to you before, but if I'm a science dilettante, I'm a serious dilettante, to the point of geekdom - i.e., former brewer, in addition to everything else, I maintained a full micro-lab at home, banking yeasts, propagated and wild, _S. cerevisae_; brewing bacterias, etc.; methods of quality control (dissolved CO2 content, final attenuation, yeast viability/viability, yeast counts, differential microbial contaminants, etc.)....LOL, all a long-winded way of saying that the one thing I do employ, is rigor when approaching this stuff - I've syringes for use in dosing Prime, Excel (on the tank I use it on), and the like. I'm very impressed with Prime's conditioning ability.

Thanks again, for everything.


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Hi Paul, I am a brewer as well. The things you learned in brewing will help greatly. I found "Freshwater Microbiology" by Sigee helped my expand my knowledge from brewing organisms to aquaria organisms.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Paul, I would keep the tank going, but you will need to add some fertilizer for the plants. 
Either keep it as a natural tank and feed the plants fish food, or feed them the fertilizers more commonly used for high tech tanks. 

As long as the snails are still OK, I would feed fish food; they will break down a lot of it, and the bacteria and other microorganisms will break down the rest.

I am sorry you lost the fish :-(

With the symptoms recurring in the Q-tank, it does sound more like a gill or blood problem, perhaps brought on by toxins, but once the fish were exposed they could not heal the damage. Parasites in the gills could cause this, too. Did you autopsy any of the fish?

Ammonia will burn the gills.
Nitrite will cause Brown Blood Disease. 
With the plants pearling this suggests that the plants are entirely capable of removing all the nitrogen products that might normally be found in a tank, though. And your own tests showed no rise in these, either. 
Suggesting something else caused the issue the fish. 
But not the snails or plants.


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## drtechno (Mar 31, 2009)

if your fish are dying off overnight is becuse the plants are adjusting the water at night.
run an airstone in the tank at night to supplement the takeup of oxygen the plants are doing.

something is unbalanced in the co2,o2 cycle

better yet run an airstore continuously for a month,

let the plants adjust the chemistry, not you.

no water changes for a month either........

the combination of plants you have will probably adjust the water to somewhere in the 7.5 range

but ending ph is no big deal, it will tell you what type of fish is compatible in the tank.

snails will tell you if you have something wrong. (if they don't like your water)


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

OK, a strange and wondrous turn of events. 

Two little platies fry survived - unbeknownst to me. They have thrived, and are now growing rapidly. Snails never suffered - seemingly - are all over the place in the tank. Additionally, the water is crystal clear, and virtually all traces of algae have died away. The tank looks virtually pristine - if a jungle. I've left it completely alone since the die-off, except for daily fish food "feedings" and top off as needed. 

No idea what happened, still, particularly since 2 fry orphans lived to thrive, as now. Happy, and knocking on wood, would like to begin adding fish back in. 10 gallons with ramshorn and pond snails, and 2 tough little platies....harlequin rasboras?


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

Great to hear about the fry! I like the chili rasboras. 24 fit nicely in a 10 gallon.


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## tonbrencat (Jan 21, 2009)

If you have a heater pull it and check for cracks, driftwood if its any type of walnut could be juglone poison, gas embli? did you see any bubbles on the fish? sorry about all your fish deaths hope you figure this out


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Been away for quite awhile - injuries have kept me pretty low.

Just wanted to post a progress report. In brief, the tank is doing wonderfully well. I have no idea what took place those many months ago, but surmise it was a case of too many fish in an earlier stage of the NPT, so emergent O2 starvation was a problem (a bubbler didn't save any of them - it came on so quickly, like a total crash) - I was really saddened by this.

After every fish - or so I thought - died off, one tiny platy fry survived, and I only discovered this little warrior's presence long after the fact (hiding in the dense growth)....today, he reigns supreme, with a betta and other platies (who live in harmony). The tank water has never been changed, and the only maintenance is to regularly prune back, as the plants do screamingly well. A few shot from today:


























Many thanks, Diana, for a really gratifying paradigm.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your tank look wonderful. Thanks for your letter.


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