# When to dose?



## Corey Hoff (Jan 8, 2008)

Does it matter what time of day you dose ferts? Will the plants benifit more if you dose at "lights on" vs. just before "lights out?" Or does the fert concentration stay the same in the water until the plants utilize them?


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

None of the fertilizers are volatile so the only thing that could deplete them other than plant usage would be chemical reactions, as far as I know. And the only chemical reaction would involve the chelators, since everything else is just salts. So, my opinion is that some trace elements might become less available to the plants, if they are in the water a long time, but no other loss should occur.

I can understand Edward's recommendation to add fertilizers just before the lights come on, and it seems like a good idea to me. Some of the fertilizers can be consumed pretty rapidly, so it seems best that they be consumed during the time of maximum need by the plants. Intuitively this doesn't seem like a major issue.


----------



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

I thought the concept was to "overdose" and then do a 50% water change every week....so what's time got to do with it?

Instead of when, I'd like to ask "How". I'm following this guide for 60 – 80 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ¼ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ¼ tsp (20ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

and 

Sunday - 50% water change. Add KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 
Monday - Add traces 
Tuesday - Add KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 
Wednesday - Add traces 
Thursday - Add KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 
Friday - Add traces 
Saturday - Rest day 

(except, I'm not using the KS204)

So, can you make up a dry mix of the daily dose of the KNO3 and KH2PO4 so that you can just throw the dry mix in the tank?

Oh, just found this question at the end of a thread
quoted from rexgriggs site 
Quote:
MIXING UP KNO3 AND KH2PO4 CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS. 

what problems does that cause and when should each be dosed if you cant mix it?

and ...."never a nary reply was found"

__________________


----------



## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Some of us living without fear of the "government" are dosing so lean that the notion of dosing before photoperiod is assumed because amount of fertilizers is so lean that it does not last all week or few days but only that one photoperiod!

In my opinion overdosing like recommended is for beginners and practically full proof. When you get "experienced" you begin to scale back only feeding the tank what it wants and typically changing less water. At least thats my story.


----------



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

My God, you micromanager. Speak and let the populations be forwidth aware of what low dosage you do speak of. How loweth do thou goest and at what rates and frequency. Speak in silence, dare not let the "Government" know of this.


----------



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

Never mind, I just found a thread on this topic (on this forum) that has every answer to this question that anyone could want. I can do whatever I want to do and it'll probably be alright. God you gotta love these forums....You can ask anything you want and somebody will answer it and eventually you'll get the answer you want. You just have to work it hard enough. Thank you..and you...and you...and you...


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

All joking aside, there are two basic approaches to fertilizing. One is to always dose more than enough of everything, so the plants can't run out of anything. But, that means weekly big water changes to get rid of the accumulated excesses. The other is to try to dose just about what the plants actually need. But, that requires more care in determining what the plants need. As far as I have found out, both methods work fine. One may work better, but which one that is depends on who you ask.


----------



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

I've just read the entire 8 pages of the Sticky on EI Dosing here on this forum (for the second time). I'm not sure God would understand all that. I can either do the suggested amounts (for overdosing) followed by major water changes weekly or I can just do something a lot less and decide if "it is working"....measured by what? How much I think my plants look healthy or by measuring the ppm of CO2, NO3, K+, and PO4?

Slap me for asking this, but how am I suppose to measure those things? My MASTER test kit only test for pH, NH3, NO2 and NO3 (I think that's right).

If I'm going to shoot for the much reduced method of dosing, I need to find out how to convert grams of something like KNO3 into ppm of K+. Do I have to get a post graduate degree in chemistry to have an aquarium with fish and plants? I should have been a plant.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Manwithnofishbuthopefullythatwillbecorrected, you are lucky! Edward has done the hard part for you. Just follow his PPS Pro method and spend your time on the hobby instead of in chemistry classes!


----------



## Corey Hoff (Jan 8, 2008)

Thank you all for your responses, as Manwithnofish stated, if you read long enough, you find the answer that you want. Whether it is correct or not, well what works for one may not work for another, but the opinions of others still does help. Now I have another question that hopefully wont end up in a knock-down-drag-out. Does overdosing ferts affect the health of the fish. I know this is mostly a planted forum, but I have huge amounts of money tied up in discus, and I do worry about their health. I have already spent too much $ on fish funerals, but oddly enough I have not yet lost a single discus since I planted my tank. So obviously the plants do help, but I dont want to undo what they do by overfertilizing. Any thoughts on that (silly question huh)


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

That is a very good question, with, as usual, a complicated answer. Partly, in my opinion it depends on what species of fish you are concerned about. And, for sure, it depends on how big the overdose is. I know a large number of us dose per EI, which is an "overdosing" method for fertilizing, and I doubt that it would be anywhere near that number if people had fish problems as a result. But, I know fish don't all have the same sensitivity to chemical salts in the water. Also, for sure, there is some level of concentration of any of the fertilizers that is harmful to most fish - the real question is what the levels are.


----------



## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

> Any thoughts on that (silly question huh)


Yes! No wait, No!

What are you doing now?


----------



## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

hoppycalif said:


> Manwithnofishbuthopefullythatwillbecorrected, you are lucky! Edward has done the hard part for you. Just follow his PPS Pro method and spend your time on the hobby instead of in chemistry classes!


Who is this edward and where (link?) has he done the hard part of following the PPS Pro method? Do you just mean by figuring out hwo many grams of each to put into the solutions? Is it what you use Hoppy and what are the advantages and disadvantages of it? WHich is better for a newb?

I really don't want to have to get a scale, and the increased testing is a pain, but the avoidance of large PWC's is one advantage for sure.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

See the stickies at the top of this forum for the PPS pro writeup. This is Edward's method, which he figured out, did all of the calculations for, and all of the reasoning behind it.

I use the EI fertilizing method, because it suits my needs better, and I believe the theory behind it. But, that doesn't mean I think it works the best - I have no idea what method actually works the best. The EI method, the PPS Pro method, and the Pfertz method are all easy to follow for a beginner, so it is just a personal choice which one to use. The EI method does require big regular water changes, so if that is a problem, the other methods might work better for you.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Corey Hoff said:


> Thank you all for your responses, as Manwithnofish stated, if you read long enough, you find the answer that you want. Whether it is correct or not, well what works for one may not work for another, but the opinions of others still does help. Now I have another question that hopefully wont end up in a knock-down-drag-out. Does overdosing ferts affect the health of the fish. I know this is mostly a planted forum, but I have huge amounts of money tied up in discus, and I do worry about their health. I have already spent too much $ on fish funerals, but oddly enough I have not yet lost a single discus since I planted my tank. So obviously the plants do help, but I dont want to undo what they do by overfertilizing. Any thoughts on that (silly question huh)


OK, at the risk of starting a war, here goes. Many folks claim that high (40-60ppm) levels of nitrates does no harm to fish or livestock. Personally, and this *ONLY MY OPINION
*, my thought is there is no need to have that high an amount in your tank. Maintaining 10-20ppm NO3 and 2-3ppm PO4 will not hurt your tank or any of its inhabitants. If it were me, I would dose at approx 10ppm NO3 and 1.5ppm PO4 at water change. Then measure your levels 3 or 4 days later to see how (or if) they have dropped. Do not blindly add EI levels and assume it's going to work properly. The other option which is also used is Edward's PPS system which adds a little bit daily and pretty much guarantees you will not have any OD issues.

As you are finding out, having plants healthily growing in your tank, will typically give you healthy fish as well. My fish never looked as healthy in my tanks before I started growing plants well.

Of course, ymmv.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I have never seen a reason to go to war over fertilizing methods. Too many people succeed with too many different methods. For convenience only it is best to pick one method and follow it.

If you enjoy testing, or at least, don't mind testing, then you might do best to follow what Bert is suggesting. But, if you are like me, too lazy to routinely test, one of the "one size fits all" methods might be best. In any case it would be foolish, in my opinion, to suggest that any of the accepted methods doesn't work, just because if you do, ten people will immediately report the fantastic success they have with just that method! I don't mind egg on my face, but I prefer not to do it intentionally.


----------



## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

Bert H said:


> OK, at the risk of starting a war, here goes.


Ha, funny you should mention it. I post on two types of forums: (1) Video game forums, and (2) Fish forums (spend most of my time in the planted sections obviously, which is why I like APC so much since the entire site is plant related).

You would not beleive how quickly flame-wars start on videogame forums. The civility exercised on the fish/plant websites makes the VG forums I post in a lot look like the middle of a warzone with heavy casualties and no medics. lol.



Bert H said:


> Do not blindly add EI levels and assume it's going to work properly. The other option which is also used is Edward's PPS system which adds a little bit daily and pretty much guarantees you will not have any OD issues.
> 
> As you are finding out, having plants healthily growing in your tank, will typically give you healthy fish as well. My fish never looked as healthy in my tanks before I started growing plants well.
> 
> Of course, ymmv.


I thought the BENEFIT of EI is that it allows you to blindly dose. It eliminates the need for testing and lets you start from scratch weekly. Isn't this the spirit of EI?? I hate testing, not only b/c I had deciding which shade of color something is, but b/c its a pain, so I really like EI.

I really want to have healthy and lush plants, but now they're yellowish and I'm starting the see the beginning of algae problems. I think I should stick it out with EI and let it take its course.

If there is one maxim to planted tanks that I think NOBODY would argue with, it is this: Be patient.


----------



## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> I thought the BENEFIT of EI is that it allows you to blindly dose. It eliminates the need for testing and lets you start from scratch weekly. Isn't this the spirit of EI?? I hate testing, not only b/c I had deciding which shade of color something is, but b/c its a pain, so I really like EI.


As I stated before, these are only MY opinions, but the reason I say this is that I was once 'blindly dosing' EI sticky type levels on my tanks. I started noticing my fish weren't as lively as I thought they used to be and decided to test my waters. I found I had 80ppm of NO3 in the tank. And yes, I was using a calibrated Hach kit when I determined that, so it wasn't a kit related error. The poster was concerned with his fish and high fert levels, therefore my comment. 

Having said that, I think EI is fine, and I don't hesitate to recommend it to folks. But as with everything, know what you're doing, and take the time to learn your individual tank and its idiosyncrasies, so to speak. It does take time, and you're absolutely right, that patience is a must. 

In your particular case, I would say definitely stick it out with your current scheme. Just be aware, that one size does not fit all and make modifications as you need to.


----------



## Pitt420dude (Mar 21, 2008)

Great info, thanks Bert.


----------

