# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Can High-light plants and Low-Tech Mix?



## Ger (May 5, 2004)

I plan on setting up my 45 with a soil-gravel substrate, and would currently prefer to not go the CO2 route. Since my window is on the north side of the house under a huge Beech tree, there's little in the way of natural sunlight. I would like to grow medium to high light plants. Due to lack of direct sunlight, I am considering a 2x96w setup (yes, 4wpg!). Is this asking for green water? Does anyone have high-light, soil, no CO2 setups? If so, what lighting do you use?

Thanks, 

-- Ger


----------



## Ger (May 5, 2004)

I plan on setting up my 45 with a soil-gravel substrate, and would currently prefer to not go the CO2 route. Since my window is on the north side of the house under a huge Beech tree, there's little in the way of natural sunlight. I would like to grow medium to high light plants. Due to lack of direct sunlight, I am considering a 2x96w setup (yes, 4wpg!). Is this asking for green water? Does anyone have high-light, soil, no CO2 setups? If so, what lighting do you use?

Thanks, 

-- Ger


----------



## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

Hi Ger,

I do indeed think it's possible, but you'll find that most people don't talk about it. I grow only native US plants in my tanks, and many of the ones I like could be called high light. I have about 2.7 watts per gallon, and think I could easily have more.

I have found that the key, in my case, is controlling my phosphorus load. My tap water has phosphorus in it. If I use just the tap water, I get a huge green water explosion. I have heard advice on other boards about dealing with this with adding nitrates, etc. (to get a 10:1 ratio), and getting the plants to grow faster, but without the added CO2(which I refuse to deal with), I don't think I could get enough growth to use all the nutrients.

So, while not exactly low-tech, I use a lot of DI water and reconstitute it to have the hardness I want. I'm sure that in some areas this is not necessary. I have also used phosphorus-absorbing media from the fish store, which worked OK. I really think that the trick in my case is to keep the nutrients at a level where the plants can outcompete the algae, not the other way around (keeping the plants growing fast enough so they can outcompete for all those extra nutrients). I still have to clean the glass on occasion, but that's it.

I'm cheap, so I use regular output fluorescent tubes; a mix of cool white and warm white. I build my own canopies by using a ballastand wiring it all myself. It's really, really easy. A ballast can be raided from a shop-light or similar inexpensive fixture, or I have found them for not too much money at a lighting supply store. I don't get anything from aquarium supply places if I can help it; anything with the word "aquarium" on it seems to cost many times what it otherwise would. When I build the canopies, I put the ballast outside, on the back, so that it doesn't add to the heat inside the tank. This way I can also use 2 or 3 ballasts on a tank without them getting in the way. Just make sure they won't get wet.

I haven't done it myself, but you can also look into "over-driven normal output" (ODNO) lights. Essentially, if you take an electronic ballast that is made for more than one bulb (not a magnetic ballast), you can wire it so that each bulb gets the power for more than one bulb. So, for example, a two-bulb ballast can overdrive one bulb (getting something like 1.7 times the light), and a 4-bulb ballast can overdrive 2 bulbs or even 1 bulb. Bulb life is shorter this way, but I have been told that it is not dangerous (fire-wise). I've been told that bulbs are run at a lower wattage than they can take because it makes them blow out faster, and that the cost of paying someone to replace the bulbs high up in the ceiling makes it less expensive to have more but dimmer bulbs that blow out less frequently. In fact, there are special ballasts for aquariums that deliver this kind of power without the funky wiring, but... they cost a lot more... There are instructions on this all over. Search for "ODNO" and you'll find a lot.

Have fun!

-Laura


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Ger:
> I would like to grow medium to high light plants. Due to lack of direct sunlight, I am considering a 2x96w setup (yes, 4wpg!). Is this asking for green water? Does anyone have high-light, soil, no CO2 setups? If so, what lighting do you use?


I would consider two of my tanks that get sunlight a "highlight tanks". Fluorescent light, even 4 wpg, pales in comparison to sunlight! I have two of these tanks with a variety of plants- Val, large/small Swordplants, Sagittaria, Rotalia, Anubias, duckweed, Water Sprite, etc.

Stem plants can use the light, but may not do well without CO2 injection. Therefore, I would recommend that you try floating and emergent plants in this tank. I think Water Wisteria and Water Sprite are lovely plants for this kind of tank. They'll use the light, don't need water CO2, and will protectively shade those plants that don't need 4 wpg. Also, Val and Myriophyllum species can prosper with this amount of light.

With this kind of lighting you'll need some healthy plant growth to prevent algae.


----------



## Ger (May 5, 2004)

I do intend to have a high quantity of plants in this setup (an aquascape attempt). Until now, I wasn't entirely clear what limitations I might have on my selection. So basically, most stem plants won't fare well? I had been considering D. diandra or Stargrass, but I like the idea of using Water Wisteria in its place.

In a given 12 hour photoperiod, would it be better or worse to have X watts of light for the first and last third of the photoperiod, and 2X watts for the middle third? (Although I had read somewhere that algae could be checked by tirnung off the lights for a short duration in the middle of the photoperiod).


----------



## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

Hi Ger,

I have a good number of stem plants in my tanks and they do quite well. The plants that do particularly well for me include Bacopa caroliniana, Mayaca fluviatillus, Ludwigia palustris, Ludwegia arcuata (looks a lot like Diplidis diandra) and Ceratophyllum demersum. C. demersum is actually a stem plant that occurs as a floating plant, and it supposedly removes a lot of nutrients. It could be used to shade, as well.

Since you are looking to aquascape, you are probably wanting a mixture of stem and rosette plants. Rosette plants that work well for me are and Saggitaria species and Eleocharis acicularis. E. acicularis can run rampant; it can be kept in check with little plastic barriers sunk into the substrate that stick out (kind of like garden edging). Isoetes lacustris also does really well, but grows slowly.

If you plant stem plants, I would plant each stem separately, especially for B. carolinina and L. palustris. They will branch, and the B. caroliniana will send out branches from under ground and will thicken up nicely. 

Water sprite grows exceptionally fast, and I don't like it because of this. But it is probably a great plant for starting the tank because of its fast growth, which could help out when the other plants are becoming established. I agree with Diana that you will need some healthy plant growth to prevent algae, and this is harder at the very beginning when everything is getting settled and the plants are spending their energy sending out roots.

And, of course, you could consider contracting the (dreaded?) planted tank virus. This would be to have more than one tank, so that you can test plants out before you try them in your display tank. Things like 1 to 10 gallon tanks. That way you can monkey with them, keep a better eye on certain ones, or grow certain ones out until you have enough of it. This virus is probably more dreaded to spouses than it is to the inflicted. If you have a basement (which I don't), I would suggest using it instead of the kitchen, which is where mine reside. My test tanks are under a bank of shop lights. They are a lot of fun, and allow me to tinker without screwing up the big tanks.

I don't know about the timing of the lights, but my display tanks do have a shut-off period in the middle of the day. This is because I want to limit them to 10 to 11 hours of light (this has really, really helped the algae issue), but I also want to see them when I am at home, which is morning and evenings. So I keep them on from something like 7-12 and 5 to 10. I have read the hypothesis about the break in the middle as well, but I don't know if this is actually causing an effect in my case. I really just wanted to see my tanks, but leaving the lights on from 7 to 10 is way to long in my case.


----------



## Ger (May 5, 2004)

Thank you both for sharing your insight and experience. I am feeling more confident about being able to pull this off! Which would fare better in this type of setup as a ground cover -- chain sword or Lilaeopsis?


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Ger:
> Thank you both for sharing your insight and experience. I am feeling more confident about being able to pull this off! Which would fare better in this type of setup as a ground cover -- chain sword or Lilaeopsis?


If you haven't had a natural tank before I think that you are severely limiting your chances for success (that is, good plant growth and no algae) by aquascaping.

Aquascaping is best done with CO2 injection and artifical fertilizers, because it allows you to grow practically any species. Notice that you won't find many natural tanks like mine in aquascaping contests!

In a natural tank (no CO2 injection), you're limited to plants that can grow well without adding CO2. This means emergent plants (yes, duckweed, floating Riccia, Water Wisteria). You need good growers like Amazon swordplants and Cryptocoryne wendtii. I've found chain swords to do very poorly in my tanks.

Yes, you may get chain swords or Lilaeopsis to grow well for several months, because the soil will be giving off enough CO2. However, the effect is temporary (the easily digestible organic matter in soil eventually gets "used up").

My advice has always been: buy as many plant species as you can and throw them into your tank. Work with those that do well. Once you get this tank doing well, only then would I consider aquascaping.

Bottom Line: Aquascaping is best done with tanks that get artificial CO2 injection.


----------



## Ger (May 5, 2004)

I have used potting soil in low light (<=1 wpg) with success growing Hygro polysperma, Java Fern, and Creeping Jenny. I've also used soil from my garden in another tank (36w/20g) using clippings of Ludwigia repens, H. polysperma and Hornwort, but the stems seem to be just getting by -- perhaps toxicity, perhaps just not what I'm used to seeing in my 4wpg 15 with CO2/fluorite. In this 15 I simply grow stem plants and java fern (and hair algae). My take on this new venture is to attempt a low tech display tank, as I have had success with soil without knowing why. Since I understand the key to success with a low-tech setup is to select a suite of plants that will succeed in such an environment, I believe that those plants may also be arranged and trained in such a way as to produce an aquascape worthy of note. Has this not been done before? Am I too ambitious? Am I misunderstanding the definition of aquascape?

As far as organic matter in the soil getting used up is concerned, I understood that that was the reason for 'feeding' the tank every day with fishfood -- to prevent it from being used up. Will this be insufficient with an abundance of heavy root feeders?

Thanks again for your insight!

-- Ger


----------



## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Ger,

I think the problem with aquascaping in a soil-based tank is simply that the aquarist's goals in a soil-based tank and in an aquascaped tank are usually divergent. Normally with a soil-based tank people are looking for a way of maintaining a healthy aquarium with the least effort. In an aquascaped tank people are looking for the most attractive tank and are willing to put in some additional effort to make it so. The goals are difficult to balance, especially since some common standards in aquascaped tanks preclude techniques that work well in soil-based tanks.

That doesn't mean that it can't be done. Ellen Parker's small tank entry in the 2002 AGA contest is a beautiful soil-based tank. Giancarlo Podio keeps a beautiful low light, low tech (not necessarily soil-based) tank that he has pictured here somewhere. The old photos of burgeoning planted tanks that first sparked my interest in aquatic plants back in the mid 60's were (I think) mostly soil-based and used natural light. The tanks that built the reputation of the Dutch aquarium did not have high light and injected CO2.

The problem is that balancing both goals requires a very high level of skill both as an aquarist and as an aquascaper. Plus you need the patience of Job. The challenge is a pretty big one.


Roger Miller


----------



## nativeplanter (Jan 27, 2004)

Dear Ger,

I have an idea. Instead of going gung-ho with this on your 45 gallon, why not try converting your 15 gallon to a soil tank and stop the CO2? Or, you could take your soil 20 gallon/ 36 watt tank, and increase the wattage to 3 watts per gallon. I think the problems you are having in that tank may just be that there isn't enough light - you have 1.8 watts per gallon there.

By fiddling with the smaller tanks for a few months, you can get an idea of what you might want to do in the big tank. You can also change things around and practice without it being a huge deal. You'll get a better feel for the plants that you want to grow in the big tank, and can work up your design plans in the meantime. You might also reduce any stress you might encounter because, after all, these are your "practice" tanks.

-Laura


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I agree with Laura and Roger....well-put answers to a confusing issue.


----------



## newmang (Sep 22, 2003)

My chain swords (E. tenellus) are growing well in my 2-month old Walstad-style tank at the moment. So what do I do? resign myself to them fading away eventually as the organic matter in the substrate runs out?

Anyway I thought chain swords _were_ emergent plants? The one's I bought were certainly cultivated out of the water.



> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Diana Walstad:
> 
> ...


----------



## Ger (May 5, 2004)

newmang, that statement confused me as well. I understood from her book that daily fish food additions would supplement the C in the soil, which would, at the very least, prolong the viability of the substrate to provide nutrients to the plants needing them. However, given the overall context of my question about aquascaping a low-tech tank, I think I understand her point.

Ms. Walstad, could you please clarify this for us?

-- Gerry


----------



## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

The most true low-tech tank is the one that uses little or no electronic gadgetries. Sun light, open-spaced, soil substrate, to just name a few. No injected CO2 or any kinds of fertilizers. You keep fish, feed them foods, the leftovers of which will sink to the bottom and become foods for the plants. Less plants=less CO2 respired; more plants=more CO2 respired. The same goes to the number of inhabitants. Obviously, the open space also allow for more gas exchange. Pretty much most of the plants I have tried in low-tech setting have done very well, as the ones in the pond, which I think is the truest low-tech example of them all. I have yet to try growing tough, light-intensive, heavy-feeding ones like Rotala macrandra and wallachi, red Cabomba, and other colorful plants, in ponds. I know I probably will try one day, though









Paul


----------



## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

> Originally posted by newmang:
> My chain swords (E. tenellus) are growing well in my 2-month old Walstad-style tank at the moment. So what do I do? resign myself to them fading away eventually as the organic matter in the substrate runs out?
> 
> Unless you are determined to have excellent growth of E. tenellus in your tank, you can relax. I've got tanks that are 10 years old and the plants are doing fine. It's just that some plant species (like E. tenellus) may start to "fade away" over time. For example, the three Cryptocoryne blassi that were doing so well in my 45 gal (with potting soil) for first year are no longer growing. But other plants are doing well. My Ruffled Sword is having babies and the Sagittaria graminea has sent up bloom. You just can't put all your hopes on one plant species. And if your goal is a carpet of E. tenellus (or some other species), you may be disappointed. I've never had any long-term luck setting up "carpets".
> ...


----------

