# Sticky  Allelopathy in Crypts



## orchidnutz

As the result of a discussion on a thread entitled "Submerged Crypts," the topic of allelopathy was broached. To quote
1/ Over the course of my crypt growing years, I have observed the results of the allelotoxins that some crypts distribute. I don't know if this is a common occurrence or not, but I do not seem to be able to grow crypts and vals anywhere near each other. The vals simply start to 'fade away' even though they were taking over the tank BC (before crypts) Whether that is a result of direct competition for nutrients or the result of allelopathy, I'm not sure but my plants are well fertilized with a mixture of cow manure, sheep manure, red clay, topsoil and iron filings, so I would suspect allelopathy.
From time to time I have also noticed that some crypts don't like close proximity with other crypt species. I can't really remember which species now because at the time I just thought that I had put a species somewhere it didn't like, so I moved it. It wasn't 'til many years later that I realized what was going on.
Perhaps this is fodder for a new crypt thread. "Allelopathy Amongst Crypt Species." Perhaps this could save us all time and plants if we shared our experiences.

2/ I would be interested to hear examples in detail.

I usually have my crypts growing very closely and haven't experienced any obvious signs of allelopathy yet. If I noted any "problems" at all, these seemed to come down to competition for light or nutrients IMHO.

3/ Yes i would love to see some examples also! because I usually grow crypts compact and tight to each other. thanx for your experience!

4/ Hi there Kai. I apologize for my lack of memory regarding the inter-species allelopapathy. Over the years I have changed my growing strategy so I do not see this anymore. Now I grow my crypts in separate containers with only a layer of sand over them as a topdressing so that the edges of the containers don't show. I started doing this 'just in case' when I started growing Crypt. cordata grabowskii with other crypts instead of growing them on their own. These were simply to scarce to take any chances of losing them.

5/ Sounds like a good idea. Start a thread on allelopathy in crypts, and I will make it a stickey. Let's have experiments with pictures, such as two crypts grown together versus each grown separately. To reduce effects of crowding, try to have the same plant biomass in each tank something like this:

Well, here's the new thread. As I mentioned previously, "I do not seem to be able to grow crypts and vals anywhere near each other. The vals simply start to 'fade away' even though they were taking over the tank BC (before crypts) Whether that is a result of direct competition for nutrients or the result of allelopathy, I'm not sure but my plants are well fertilized with a mixture of cow manure, sheep manure, red clay, topsoil and iron filings, so I would suspect allelopathy.

I would be most interested to hear from other members with similar experiences of allelopathy, either with other genera or with cryptocorynes. Please add your experience to the discussion.

To start, has there been anyone else with similar experiences with the prolixity of _Vallisneria_ & _Cryptocoryne?_ Everyone will benefit from your experiences with either positive or negative.
Thanks for the encouragement HeyPK eh
Jim :canada:


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## illustrator

I can tell my experience:

I used to grow 2 varieties of _C. wendtii _in a 120 cm tank: each was planted in a separate "island" with a few cm sand/gravel. between the "islands" was only 1 cm sand, where i occasionally removed roots (there were Corydoras in the aquarium, who greatly appreceate bare sand). Both varieties grew very well.

I then planted a wide variety of Crypto's, without a "bare-sand-separation", in the same aquarium with the same light and regular changes with the same tapwater. Some were growing well from the start, others did not and each new leaf was smaller than the former, untill they finally were reduced to a rhizome which slowly started rotting. This could be explained by less-optimal conditions for these "disappearing" species, exept for that one of the disappearing plants was one of the _wendtii_-varieties which did great before! The other is a different story, because I replanted it in a shallow tray which hangs on the back of the aquarium, here it continues to grow well.

I planted more _wendtii_-varieties: Tropica and Green never really got established and started to "get smaller" once the "bad guys" started to take over the aquarium (see below). Red Lucanas initially did great, but now seems at a standstill. A replanted bunch of Red Lucanas between _C. spiralis _and _C. c. balansae _does not really grow much but at least is not getting smaller.

_C. parva _and _C. _x. _willisii _never did well, but this might be connected with their higher light-requirements. I moved _C. walkeri _to an emersed setup as it did not do well either, for now also emersed it is not growing much (in a separate pot). _C. pontederiifolia_ did OK, but I felt that it didn't fit in appearance so I moved it to the emersed setup as well, where it is now flowering.

I think that there are two "bad guys" amongs my crypts: _C. affinis_, which forms very dense vegetations rather quickly (now covering 2/3 of the aquarium) and especially _C. usteriana_, which grew from a small "shop-sized" plant in no-time to a monster with 40 cm long leaves (if you add up the leaf-stalks it reaches 60 cm easily) and a very extensive root-system. On the photographs in the former posts I don't see either agressive growth-style. I think that much of the interaction takes place at the roots, so yes, I agree, planting them in pots will probably reduce these negative interactions.

There is also another thing going on: originally planted _C. spiralis _are "hanging on", but their offshoots, which sprout in the middle of _C. affinis_, do a lot better than the parent-plants. I think that this might be an effect of replanting, from which the original plants never recover fully (they are now growing in this aquarium for a year).

It sounds very nice, such an experimental set-up. Apart from that you either need really many tanks or a lot of time to try all combinations, I think that the outcome is also strongly influenced by water, soil and light parameters so you have to controll these (and test on a wide variety of say, water hardnesses ...). And I think that some plants can simply gain the advantage when they are having a better start (say a well growing specimen of plant A is planted alongside a specimen of species B which is not yet recoved from transport stress - in that case it is not strange that species A quickly takes the upper hand).

p.s. i love both _C. affinis_ and _C. usteriana_, so rather than reducing their growth, I gradually remove the species that suffer.


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## illustrator

> To start, has there been anyone else with similar experiences with the prolixity of _Vallisneria_ & _Cryptocoryne?_ Everyone will benefit from your experiences with either positive or negative.
> Thanks for the encouragement HeyPK eh
> Jim :canada:


As far as I remember _Vallisneria_ did great in my aquarium, untill _C. wendtii _started to get going, so yes, i agree that they appear difficult to combine. On the other hand, _Vallisneria_ is especially doing well in new setups while Crypto's generally do better in aquariums which are well-established ...


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## eco-mod

From my experiences most plants which were sensitive to excel were also effected by the crypts(vals, anarchis, floaters). Anyone else? Seems to be heavy water column users, which makes sense.


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## illustrator

I have no problem growing _Ceratophyllum _in the Crypt-aquarium


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## illustrator

The development continues: _wendtii_ "Red Lucanas" is clearly declining now: hardly any new leaves are formed and old leaves start to deteriorate. This plant did great some time ago, in the same aquarium. It grew easily to the water surface, meaning some 40 cm high.

Another _wendtii_, a red-green variegated one (probably "Indonesiae") is growing on as if nothing changes. In the same aquarium.

But not all is the same. Red Lucanas is rooted in the same sand as _affinis_ and _usteriana_, while cf. Indonesiae is in a tray hanging on the back of the aquarium. cf. Indonesiae is rooted in about 0,5 cm gravel without any additions so it has to take all nutrients from the water. But it's roots are NOT in contact with any other species.

I am thinking about re-planting Red Lucanas in a small pot to see what happens if it stays in the same aquarium, but with it's roots away from the other species.


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## illustrator

I gently pulled out some _wendtii_ Red Lucanas. To my surprise they have very few roots! I now remember that this was also the case with other varieties which I lost in a similar way: above ground they looked still reasonably, but below ground things were worse. This can hardly be because of the soil/temperature etc. because before the expansion of _affinis_, the same _wendtii_ did great!

I planted some of the _wendtii_-plants in a pot, filled with aquarium plant substrate (Tropica) topped off with river sand. Others I left where they were in the aquarium. I placed the pot next to the plants which are still left. I guess that this is also the next stage in my crypt-hobby: having plants in pots in the aquarium rather than in a landscaped set-up (now it is landscaped + 1 pot  )


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## fishlover

Hey. I find this allelopathy between cryptocorynes to be interesting. This may be a stupid question, but can there be allelopathy between different varieties of Cryptocoryne wendtii? could one have a mixed thicket of c. wendtii 'red', 'green' and 'tropica' etc. without having to worry about allelopathy? Thanks


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## illustrator

Try!


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## Kevin Jones

i have grown several crypt species in very close quarters, the only issue i have had was C. nuri ... which melted away. i attribute that to my soft water.


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## illustrator

I put a few C. wendtii "Red Lucanas" in a 9 cm plant pot in the aquarium: they started to grow like they did before the affinis-competition with firm, dark leaves. I now plan to buy wendtii "green" again, which I lost entirely when it was "growing" together with crispatula var. balansae and affinis. I am very curious what it will do in a pot. 

I also have some growing together, but more that don't grow together (= 1 growing, other gradually getting smaller untill it "disappears/dies").


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## illustrator

Shortly after my last post I bought _C. wendtii_ "green", originating from the same nursery as my previous one. I planted it in a 9 cm pot and placed it in teh same aquarium where I lost it before. It is now growing nicely!

I found a discussion on allelopaty in Crypts on the heimbiotop website (in German). Something seems wrong with this site at the moment, but the author argues that there is no such thing as allelopaty in Crypts, because at aquarium plant nurseries all plants are grown in the same water, which circulates through all basins. A very strong argument, I must say. This excludes allelopaty through substances in teh general aquarium water (same also with my new _wendtii_ "green").

So, how to distinguish between allelopaty at root-level and simple competition for nutrients by the roots of different species? It could be that some species are much better in extracting some substance from the soil, and other species simply die of a shortage of that substance. It this is some micro-nutrient, also fertilizing extra might not help on the long term ...


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## charkes kraft

I'm late to an old thread.

Something is working differently for me. In one tank I have several Crypts (wendtii, I believe) and vals growing very well together. So well that I pulled up a bunch of them and gave them to a LFS, just to reduce crowding in the tank.


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## totziens

Have any of you ever experienced itchiness on your hands after touching crypts especially when you have accidentally cut part of the roots (no itch if I only touch the leaves)? A few of my friends and I have this issue with crypts. I wonder whether this is the chemical that triggers allelopathy.


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## Patriot100%

totziens said:


> Have any of you ever experienced itchiness on your hands after touching crypts especially when you have accidentally cut part of the roots (no itch if I only touch the leaves)? A few of my friends and I have this issue with crypts. I wonder whether this is the chemical that triggers allelopathy.


Hmmmmm I may have? I cut the roots on one and broke out in a full body rash, but this may also be that I changed soaps. They both happened at the same time.


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## totziens

Some people are more sensitive than others. There are some of my friends that do not have such an issue with crypts when some get the itchy hands symptom. For my case, mostly itchiness on the fingers without rashes but I have seen rashes on my upper hand when dealing with water lettuce. So, I am sensitive to a few plants that I keep.


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## illustrator

I don't think that the rashes are caused by some chemical involved in allelopaty. 

Rather, rashes are caused by calcium oxalate crystals in the crypts. These are too small to see without a microscope, but they are the known cause why fish don't eat fresh crypt leaves (yellow leaves are often eaten).

I have many times cut and torn roots of various Crypts, but never had any rash nor itchyness. Maybe this is because after cutting roots I tend to plant the crypts in an aquarium, and the aquarium water will wash of any c-o crystals which might be on my skin.


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## totziens

Good to hear some information I am not aware of.

My Kribensis eats fresh cryptocoryne's leaves though. I cannot keep any plants with them except Java ferns and subwassertang. Even anubias got eaten up. Some people find it hard to believe but it's true. I have over 50 of kribensis in the tank and they create havoc.


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## ddavila06

reviving an old thread. so my 36 was doing great until about a month ago. first my wendtii green gecko started melting down, i noticed that the cordata rosanbeirg was giving out at least 3 runners finally and for the first time since i got it about a year ago.. coincidence? also, to the other side of the tank my wendtii red started melting down last week and i noticed the crypt cordata "Thailand" was giving out runnes....another coincidence or an assassin on the hunt?all these plants been doing great for like the past 6-8 months, even did great during a move where the tank was empty and covered with nylon when i moved...........

right now the tank is like taken apart! and im thinking where to move who..so far looks like cordata thailand is leaving this tank and possibly green gecko too'

anyways, any supporting ideas? threads?? articles are very much apreciated.


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## Yo-han

Wonc't deny the possibility of this happening, but my val and wendtii brown grew like crazy in the same tank. Also C. balansea C. 'Mi Oya' and giant vallisneria in the same tank on my work grow more than fine. Maybe the regular water changes wash away the toxins. Are people having this problem doing regular large water changes? And if not, is someone willing to do like a 50% water change weekly/biweekly?


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## ddavila06

Yo-han said:


> Wonc't deny the possibility of this happening, but my val and wendtii brown grew like crazy in the same tank. Also C. balansea C. 'Mi Oya' and giant vallisneria in the same tank on my work grow more than fine. Maybe the regular water changes wash away the toxins. Are people having this problem doing regular large water changes? And if not, is someone willing to do like a 50% water change weekly/biweekly?


the water changes point could be a good one..thought i make 50% or so every two weeks more or less.. i also have many other species mixed together sucha as cordata blassi, xwillisii, nurii, balansae red, retrospiralis, all growing in the same tank, a 75 that is..no issues ever


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## fnyb

I'm new to this forum, but I have had aquarium since I were a little gay.
I do have several setups, some with automatic water changes and some without. Those with automatic water changing do have greater species diversity, in the other setups with more random water changing more or less crypts take over.
It can be caused by illumination/reduced lighting or number of fish, but I'm not sure.

After I have gotten back planting interest, I keep most _Cryptocoryne_ separated into their own square pots and without elements of other plants. And in this way can easily change from submerse to emerse.


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## ObiQuiet

I have two tiger lotus. The one that's planted among a patch of wendtii red doesn't grow at all, the other does fine.


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## TorontoPlantMan

I've recently have ALOT of trouble with a certain area of my tank being completely killed off by another plant. Here is the scenario:

Once upon a time when I first setup my tank I tried to plant Cryptocoryne Retrospiralis but in the process ending up damaging the tuber/rhizome and threw the plant into another tank to recover. I planted Cryptocoryne Sp. Affinis in it's place and Cryptocoryne Cordata 'Rosanervig' a few inches away (5-6). Roughly 3 months later I noticed a new plant growing among my Cryptocoryne Sp. Affinis which turned out to be Cryptocoryne Retrospiralis. As the C. Retrospiralis continued to grow and get larger and larger, I recall a specific day where all of a sudden I woke up to my C. Sp. Affinis COMPLETELY melted, every single leaf!!! as well as a large portion of a very large C. Cordata 'Rosanervig' completey melted. I didn't do anything different in my aquarium, I was sure to test all my levels and nothing was out of wack besides very low nitrates 5ppm. 

My only conclusion is that the C. Retrospiralis began to compete with the C. Affinis and C. Cordata as it began to delevop and sent out some kind of toxin to kill everything surrounding it. 

Any thoughts?


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## misant777

fnyb said:


> I'm new to this forum, but I have had aquarium since I were a little gay.


I realize that was a typo, but it was kinda funny.


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## HDBenson

After reading about allelopathy in the Ecology of the Planted Aquarium this topic has really piqued my interest! I've had C. wendtii "green", in two of my previous tanks. The first time I tried them I had an unrecoverable melt, they were planted in 2mm gravel with no vacuuming in pretty bright light and a relatively young system. The second time I planted them in my 55g in sand with root tabs in a tank that had been set up for a few months in a shady area beneath some E. blehri and some monstrous H. diformis(this area proved difficult to remove all the accumulated mulm from my peckoltia). This time the crypt thrived and almost tripled in size over a few weeks sending out daughter plants and those joining the original creating a lush patch of crypt. I even eventually pulled up some of these daughter patches and replanted them in a low-tech 10g with the overgrowth from my Wisteria from the main tank and about three A. ulvaceous. These thrived in here as well with no melt in either instance. Sadly, on a three day vacation my roommate didn't turn on my tanks lights once and all these crypts in both tanks completely melted back with no recovery. I now have an unknown crypt in both of my NPT there are doing very well so far. Anyway - as I read this thread regarding alleopathy I keep thinking to myself instead of potting the suspect crypts why not put inert sheets of material between the groupings(glass/fiberglass/acrylic/slate, etc)? These can be easily covered by the substrate and allow for the natural spread of the crypts into a larger area without being confined to a pot. And, since it SEEMS that most of these alleopathic chemicals are released through the soil/substrate this SHOULD prevent this. Then any of these chemicals potentially released into the water column can be removed through water changes. Walstad also says that these chemicals can be removed through the use of activated carbon. Just a thought.


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## illustrator

Unless if you glue those strips of material (glass etc) straight on the bottom of the aquarium, there is a fair chance that crypt runners grow underneath and plantlets pop up where you don't want them. (they can also grow over ... )


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## HDBenson

Illustrator.. good point - I've never tried it and have little experience with crypts so I didn't take runners into consideration.. this is why I like forums like this.. they're like giant think-TANKS(no pun intended lol)! When we put our heads together we get great results!


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## illustrator

I tried growing crypts in pots for a while, but it did not end well. I put as many pots as possible in my aquarium and in the end the growth was dense. Even when their roots were in separate pots they competed for light and nutrients with their leaves. The result was that some species florished, but others did poorly and eventually died. Because of this I abandoned the pots-submersed growing and planted them more spaced out (well, a _very little bit _more spaced out) in river sand, like I did before. In my experience, it is not a problem to grow a dense single-species stand but to grow different species side by side they need space to breathe.


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## Cactinae

My two cents for what its worth. I once had willisii, parva and wendtii-brown growing well together in my 59 with a sand, decomposed granite and river rock sub. No co2 injection and rarely water changes. I did have some stick ferts pushed in all around them and dosed with iron and carbon semi regularly. I had all three growing well for over 2 years even filling in the gaps around one another. It wasn't until I busted up that tank and sold everything off except a couple wendtii, parva and willisii that I started to have problems. 
I did not put these back into a tank but a fish bowl with no light, heater, substrate, pump or anything but cold distilled water. I had this bowl sitting on a table by a north facing window for over 1 year. To my surprise the wendtii turned completely green shrunk but still grew just suspended in the water. I think the parva died off sometime mid way through and the willisii was nowhere to be seen until replanting these in a 3 gallon with pure sugar sand.
I grew these back up for another 2 years in a 3 gallon tetra half moon. to finally move them into the 10gallon with Kitty diggins sub, small injected co2 system with floating needle... well, they took off in the ten with a dose of co2 and as far as I can tell all I have is a bunch of wendtii but they look good!


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## Aquaticz

Hello,
I am seeking some advice for planting crypts. I am not totally new to them. I have a number of tanks and they all run smooth - except this 55- which is why I am going crypts. ( hard water, dual T5HO, C02- with lots of flow). It does not sound like I should be dosing the water column but rather adding certs to substrate. Mine is brand new and I start cycling this tank today. 
This is my question.
Is it foolish to set up a 55 gallon tank with AS and plant Crypts. Will they all melt? 
Will they come back? Sounds like I should space out them out? 
Looking for your sage advice please. Thank you


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## BruceF

I am not familiar with AS but why not just use soil? On the other hand I feed all my crypts with an ei type solution regularly they respond well to that.


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## Aquaticz

AS= Aqua soil
I tried the dirt routine but frankly it was way to much work and more importly time. I also had a bad experience with it. So for me AS is the way to go - never disappointed.
Give int a shot you will be Surprised pleasantly 

Thx for EI tip with ferts- I do it on six tanks- C0 2 makes a big difference...Huge difference. Half of my tanks have C02 the other half do not.


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