# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Fe levels ?



## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Reading Conlin sears advice, he says to keep Fe levels at around 0.1 ppm per weeek.

How do i go on about doing this ?

i have a 50G CO2 injected tank (pressure) and 2.2w/g lighting.

To aim for 0.1ppm of Fe per week, how much Fe total do i add for that week. (ie, 0.2 so that 0.1 will be used up by plants leaving the 0.1 behind ?)

I cant test with test kit, since my test Fe kit will not read my Chelated iron 

Hope you get my drift.

Cheers
Mike

They can hide, but they cant escape

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Reading Conlin sears advice, he says to keep Fe levels at around 0.1 ppm per weeek.

How do i go on about doing this ?

i have a 50G CO2 injected tank (pressure) and 2.2w/g lighting.

To aim for 0.1ppm of Fe per week, how much Fe total do i add for that week. (ie, 0.2 so that 0.1 will be used up by plants leaving the 0.1 behind ?)

I cant test with test kit, since my test Fe kit will not read my Chelated iron 

Hope you get my drift.

Cheers
Mike

They can hide, but they cant escape

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2003)

You might want to check out some iron threads both here, the APD etc.

The short answer is really I'd not worry much about testing for iron, and certainly not trying to maintain a residual level. 

A better method is dosing a specific volume of trace mix liquid to and specific tank volume.

This addresses the needs to the plants, not some test kit measurement of some extremely small mass component of a funny trace metal which is difficult to test for and the test doesn't tell you much of what you need to know in the first place.

I did some playing around with this notion starting back a decade or so ago. 

For a 50 gallon tank, the maximum needs for a 50 gal needs with 5w/gal of PC light will not exceed 12mls 3x a week.

Adding more will not be needed beyond this level. You can split it up over 7 days if you wish, it will not any difference in algae or plant health. 

Plants will also get the iron from the gravel substrate also. Flourite proved to be the best source from everythiung I've tried for substrates which appears to be more than most folks attempts. But you have to be able to do well with the water column to gauge the substrate and vice versa for a decent water column routine.

I think you'll find a good water column routine will get the furthest along.

So for a 50 gal:
12 mls 3 a week of trace mix,
1/2 teaspoon of KNO3 3x a week
1/2 teaspoon of K2SO4 after water change only(50% weekly)
1/16th of KH2PO4 2x a week

Less light?
Try 2x a week for KNO3, KH2PO4, Traces.
The above is for the max rates for general plant tanks.

Adjust KH-GH to 3 degrees(50ppm) or higher if the tap is soft.

This will maintain a good range and the weekly water change will keep things from getting to excessive.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## imported_Svennovitch (Feb 1, 2003)

Interesting, Tom!
But can you tell us how concentrated the trace mix must be?
I have dry stuff for my trace, so i have to make my own solution. Were you talking about concentrations like TMG?

Thank you,
Sven


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Thanks Tom for the reply.

Actually all the ingrediants i am adding are already in line to what info you have given.

As Sven said i have the same problem with Iron an traces.

I have a EDTA trace and Iron mix .

It is different to yours and the ratios are different.

CAn you please tell me the iron doses to add in mg/l .

Do i add a one off amount of say 0.7 mg/l, then add 0.1mg/l at water changes or everyday etc.

Or just add 0.1 mg/l everyday to keep the resulting iron levels high ?

Thanks Mike

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by TJ:
> I have a EDTA trace and Iron mix .


What is your pH? EDTA chelated iron is stable to a value of about 6,5. IMHO EDTA-Fe should not be used if the pH is higher than 7,0.



> quote:
> 
> Do i add a one off amount of say 0.7 mg/l, then add 0.1mg/l at water changes or everyday etc.


I've found that my plants need more iron than my DIY TMG can provide (I'm dosing 20ml of TMG per week, 150L (40G), 2,25 W per G). Currently i'm also dosing iron separately, 0,15 ppm twice a week. My plants grow faster and look much better since i started to do it.


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## TJ (Mar 20, 2003)

Wow, thats a new one about the stability of the EDTA !!!

I tried to use HEDTA and had very good results with it. Only problem with it was that it was red in colour and it turned the water red so plants would not grow cause of lower light.

I moved onto the EDTA from that.

I have 3 batches.

HEDTA traces inc Iron (red in colour)
HEDTA Iron Only (red in colour)
EDTA trace and Iron (yellow in colour)

My PH is 6.7 and KH of 4 (25mg/l Co2)

How do you mean unstable ? What will/may happen ?

When i get my new batch made from my Hydroponics supplier, what Trace/iron mix should i get made. (Colour was the issue before). My solution is in liquid form, since the powdered traces was not recommended since not as good a quality and another issue that i can't remember. Think it was the carrier that was a problem.

They can hide, but they cant escape


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2003)

There's more to the traces than simply iron as the proxy for the other traces.

No, I really will not give a measured value from some cheapy test kit for an iron level to be maintained.I could not get agreement with 60-90$ test kits.

Various chelators will effect things differently.

Gluconates will not bind iron as tightly allowing to be used by grasses, but ETDA will bind it too tightly. This was first seen with corn crops.

My advice to those using TMG: add 10mls 3x a week to that 40 gal tank. 

I use dry trace mixes as well as Flourish etc. 
I mix 500mls H2O with 2 talbespoons of mix. I dose 5mls 3x a week for an 80 liter tank at high light, 2x a week for less light. 

You simply do not need to worry, test, try to maintain some residual. There is no need for such accuracy. It doesn't make or break a tank.

Generally, most people under dose their traces. It's a more subtle addition than NO3 or P.

Add everything you are suppose for the NPK and GH, then add more traces till you no longer get a posiotive response from the plants. Up your dose every 3-4 week till you reach that point.

I've added 2x, 10mls 3x a week on an 80 liter tank, I had no algal response.
But I was simply wasting the traces at that point.

Having a good substrate will help a great deal also when trying to gauge the effectiveness of a trace being added to the water column.

If you want to know how much my traces varied:
0.0ppm to 2.0ppm. Depends on the time of day, when I dosed, brands of test kits etc.

2-3x recommended dosings is a common value if you have 2+w/gal and CO2 etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by TJ:
> My PH is 6.7 and KH of 4 (25mg/l Co2)


So IMO you don't have to worry.



> quote:
> 
> How do you mean unstable ? What will/may happen ?


Iron would be relased from the chelating agent very quickly. This effect also depends on the amount of calcium, because Ca replaces iron in the complex.


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Van grow:
> My advice to those using TMG: add 10mls 3x a week to that 40 gal tank.


Wouldn't it be too much for a moderately lighted (2,25 watts per gallon) tank? I have some amano shrimps and I don't want to rise my Cu level too high. I'm not sure if 3x10ml of TMG per week would provide enough iron to my plants. 2x10ml just didn't. Maybe it's a result of different chelating agents? I use EDTA/HEEDTA chelated iron, original TMG has DTPA which is far more stable at neutral pH.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2003)

I had 40 gal tanks with 2w/gal of regular T-12 NO FL lights, lots of shrimps etc.

I also had a 6 w/gal tank and it was fine also.

If you do large weekly water changes nothing builds up.

No, I don't think you are going to find a dramatic difference here with these chelators and a small, difference in pH. The plant removes the Fe from the chelator, whatever it is, and leaves it in the water column and reduces the Fe to Fe2+ then it takes the cation inside the plant.

10mls 3x a week should be a max amount if you use a decent iron rich substrate base in addition like most folks do.

I've never seen any issues associated with shrimps except poor O2 levels, high NH4 levels.
I have hundreds of shrimps. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## MarcinB (Apr 16, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Van grow:
> 10mls 3x a week should be a max amount if you use a decent iron rich substrate base in addition like most folks do.


But I don't have an iron rich substrate







I have only some (200g) Hobby laterite under the gravel. So maybe this is an issue. Thanks Tom, I wouldn't worry about my shrimps any more


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2003)

So you might need a tad more. But not much.

Iron filings, laterite, rust off a pipe, any of that will do, it's all iron. Plants can and do use that and have no real issue reducing it and using it. 

I used RFUG and no laterite etc for a number of years, I did use mulm from an old established tank.

I was under the impression I would not need a iron rich sub if I did this(add the mulm).
So I tweaked the water column real good and became well versed at that. But I also had clients which were lazy and did not dose etc but had good substrates. They had okay plant growth none the less using the Flourite. Adding both together really made a difference.

I know flourite works better than sand+ laterite+heating cables but you can still get very nice results. 

Iron is one of those funny nutrients. 

I think it's best added by volume in mls x tank size x frequency(based on light intensity).
That's a much bettere standard than any test kit you will buy.

Some tweaking depending on your tank up a few mls/down takes some user finess and experience.
Nothing is 100% cook book. Some subtle changes may need to be done to fine tune things.

But this is subtle with traces and it simply takes time to learn what to look for and it takes time to see the changes evolve.

I never really understood the Sears/Conlin approach about iron. I thought the PO4 was suppose to be the limiting nutrient. You cannot have two limiting nutrients at the same time in practical terms.

I'd heard much higher amounts and they were working well for me at that time when it came out. My iron levels where around 1-2ppm as measured on a Hach and a Lamott test kit.

But in a day or two, that was gone.
Claus(Tropica) came to CA some years back and everywhere he said he saw tanks that where deficient in traces. 
Folks started adding more(2-3x more) thereafter. I'd been adding a lot all along and I had loads of PO4 and Steve Dixon brought his kits over to measure the PO4 levels in disbelief.

This was balsphemy, hersey and going against the prevailing dogma of all those in the know.

I was to ignorant at the time to know any better or worry about "theory". I just had years of experience of plant watching and algae control methods. I got lucky and Steve helped out a great deal. But I figured out why I got lucky...

Regards 
Tom Barr


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