# Do we really need these special gravels?



## Aussie_star (Jan 7, 2005)

Im sure this has been asked before but,
I am thinking of getting eco complete for my tank, but if we add all of these things that it is mean to have eg trace element, iron and stuff by fertilising to normal gravel, and if we continueto add it and right levels we dont really need it then wouldnt we?

I just not sure at the moment, was thing of getting normal gravel and adding peat moss to it to help out a bit, and adding these extras that are need. Casue pmdd has iron, trac elements in it, which this eco complete has. In australia we have flourite in out water so every time i do a water change i and replacing it or adding more flourite, but will have to try and add some anyways. 

So whats is everyone else opinion on the topic


----------



## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

Do you need Eco complete to grow nice plants? No. It allows you to goof a little more on your ferts schedule though.

Sprinkle a little peat at the bottom of your tank, throw in some mulm from an established tank if you can, and make sure to stay on top of fertilizing the water and watch your plants grow.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 26, 2004)

brad said:


> Do you need Eco complete to grow nice plants? No. It allows you to goof a little more on your ferts schedule though.
> 
> Sprinkle a little peat at the bottom of your tank, throw in some mulm from an established tank if you can, and make sure to stay on top of fertilizing the water and watch your plants grow.


The special gravels also are the correct grain size for planting in. If you decide to use regular gravel you can, but make sure it is a very fine grain size of about 3 millimeters in diameter. Otherwise, you'll have a heck of a time getting most plants to stay.


----------



## Nolan W. (Jul 30, 2005)

Adding some laterite along with the peat may help, too. I use coarse sand with a laterite underlayer in my tank.


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Honestly, if you are fertilizing the water column properly for your tank, I think the plants could care less what they are rooted in. I have found smaller types of substrates are better for holding the plants down but that seems to be the only benefit as far as I'm concerned.

Unless some scientific tests prove me wrong, I will go with silica sand or another similarly sized substrate in the next tank I set up.


----------



## SnakeIce (May 9, 2005)

I have found that root feeders like crypts and swords do better in the clay based substrates like florite, profile or gravel over laterite. I don't know the details of why but it has something to do with the cation exchange being better due to greater surface area of the substrate.

this is with all things being equal as far as lighting and keeping the plants fed.


----------



## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

there are lots of plants that ¨prefer¨ to get their nutrients from the substrate. Swords, lotus` etc.....All the plants will turn to the water column though, and lots of healthy leaves are nicer than lots of healthy roots


----------



## Aussie_star (Jan 7, 2005)

just one thing what is mulm?
I have a 75 gallon spare in a couple of months when i sell some fish, so i am going to try and setup it up with normal gravel, def. under 3mm dia with some peat moss. Plus adding ferts

Damn about the swords and lotus, there are what i many want to go with my discus, but i think they still should be alright with the gravel and peat moss. Will just have to try and see how it goes.


----------



## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

Mulm is the fish waste that collects at the bottom of the tank. It can be fish food, fish poop...... Either way, it`s a good fertilizer and a great way to kick start a tank.

I have both lotuses and swords in my tank. I cheated at first and put in some root tabs, but haven`t gotten around to it in 6 months and haven`t seen any slower growth. I just pay more attention to my water colomn ferts.


----------



## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

brad said:


> there are lots of plants that ¨prefer¨ to get their nutrients from the substrate. Swords, lotus` etc.....All the plants will turn to the water column though, and lots of healthy leaves are nicer than lots of healthy roots


No they don't.
Folks love to say this, I've never seen any edvidence and I've had these plants for decades. I'm quite good with Crypts and swords, well, if they grow slower and do not get as large, that would be a blessing. They get too big for most tanks, so do Lotus.

I can prune off all the roots of a sword and it'll grow just fine. Same for the Crypts. No difference.

Just because a river plant has big roots, does not imply it prefers anything. The roots may just be to hold the plant in place.

But the tanks I've had these plants never had much, if any ferts and the plants grew better than anyone else's that added ferts to the substrate.........

Why would they prefer to grow better in that case if what you say is true?
This is not one tank, one year's wotrth of experience, this is many tanks over decades and over 40 species in both groups.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## brad (Jul 10, 2005)

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/roots.html

I imagine that most of this has challenged as it`s nearly 10 years old.

Is it possible that plants grow better when we dose the water colomn because it`s much easier to do and do consistently? t`s hard to keep adding nutrients to the soil. Easy to make sure they`re in the water colomn.

Obviously, long term, water colomn fertilization is a much more sustainable method, but short term, assuming all the nutrients are provided through the substrate, do the plants still do better with plain gravel and fert in the water?


----------



## Phil Edwards (Jan 22, 2004)

No, the special aquatic plant substrates aren't necessary. They just happen to have qualities that benefit plants more than smooth epoxied gravels. River sand, pool filter sand, and poultry grit of the proper sizes are just as good and maybe even better. Personally, I'm partial to collecting sand and gravel from my local creeks. Unless the creek is really muddy the mixture of grain sizes is generally perfect for growing plants. 

Regards,
Phil


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

so just to ease my curiosity then you could put the same root tabs in a container inline say... this is if your using canister filtering or hob... in that filer as the last thing before it goes back to the tank and you'd still be dosing the column right?


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I would not put root tabs into the water column directly. Some, if not most, root tabs contain ammonia or ammonium, which could lead to algae problems. These type fertilizers are best if used in the substrate. 

If you want to dose the water column get some KNO3 and KH2PO4 or use Flourish Nitrogen/Phosphorous. Plain old Stump Remover (KNO3) or Fleet Enema (PO4) can be used for the water colun and are pretty cheap ~$5 for both, and will last a long time.


----------



## urville (Sep 20, 2004)

MatPat said:


> I would not put root tabs into the water column directly. Some, if not most, root tabs contain ammonia or ammonium, which could lead to algae problems. These type fertilizers are best if used in the substrate.
> 
> If you want to dose the water column get some KNO3 and KH2PO4 or use Flourish Nitrogen/Phosphorous. Plain old Stump Remover (KNO3) or Fleet Enema (PO4) can be used for the water colun and are pretty cheap ~$5 for both, and will last a long time.


oh okay that makes sense... you wouldnt happen to have a link or any insight as to dosing a non-co2 tank with these products would you? I use Flourish Excel instead.


----------



## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

urville said:


> oh okay that makes sense... you wouldnt happen to have a link or any insight as to dosing a non-co2 tank with these products would you? I use Flourish Excel instead.


Here is a link for the Estimative Index for non-CO2 tanks:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395

Near the end of the article, Tom recommends adding 1/8 tsp KNO3 (~6ppm) and 1/32tsp of KH2PO4 (~1ppm) to a 20g tank weekly or every other week.

Here is a link to help you convert Flourish products (should you decide to use those) to PPM:
http://www.fishfriend.com/fertfriend.html

Stump remover is KNO3. Some folks recommend the brand Greenlight, but I used Spectracide for over a year with good results. I can give you more help with the Fleets dosage if you need it.


----------

