# KlienerBar Sword



## Luke (Mar 30, 2004)

anyone have any expierence with this plant
Kleiner Bar Sword
http://www.azgardens.com/images/KleinerBarSword.gif

i successfully keep red tiger lotus [Nymphea maculeta] in my current setup. from what i have read it seems that this kleiner bar sword will do well in similar conditions, and also not out grow my 40 gal [like another sword i had to rip out, after constantly trimming back]
you can see the red lotus in my pic below, the narrow-leaf sword in the back slightly off center to the right, is now gone.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I am a little confused as to what you are asking? Are you looking for general advice on Kleiner Bar Swords or asking if it will do well in your tank? Or something else?


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## Luke (Mar 30, 2004)

just asking for any info [real expierence] from anyone who has kept this plant, and how its level of light requirements are compared to red lotus.
just curious if anyone has expierence with it


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

I bought the AZ Gardens Kleiner Bär ("Small Bear") sword. It was pretty small when I got it and looked like just about any other small sword plant with emersed leaves.

I just now grabbed my camera and took a picture of it in my tank. It's been in there since 11/15/2005. Here it is:










(The water is a little cloudy because I just fed those messy goldfish. The white dots on the glass are _nerita_ larvae.)

Quite a bit different than the deep red plant with compact leaves that is pictured in Kasselmann's book _Aquarium Plants_ on page 230 (which, interestingly enough, is the image azgardens has on their site to represent the plant they are selling):










I trimmed a lot of leaves (probably around 20 or so) off mine about a week ago. Care-wise, it's really just like any other sword.

I'm not sure the sword azgardens sold me is a true Kleiner Bär.

I see aquariumplants.com also has them available. Interestingly, for the picture of the plant, they are using the same picture as they are for the Red Rubin sword they sell:










This looks much more akin to the sword I have pictured in my tank. This leads me to believe that the plant I have is actually a Rubin, not a Kleiner Bär. It certainly doesn't fit the description of "Small Bear."

I wonder who produced the hybrid originally, and what species and/or cultivars were crossed to make Echinodorus Kleiner Bär (Kasselmann doesn't specify in her book). I wonder who the supplier is, and if it's the same one for both azgardens and aquariumplants.com. I wonder why the plant azgardens sold me looks like a Rubin (and the picture on aquariumplants.com is a Rubin) and not the Kleiner Bär that Kasselmann has pictured in her book. I wonder on whose authority these are being sold as "Kleiner Bär" - it almost seems to me at this point that whoever is supplying these plants is capitalizing on the name and is either shipping their own Rubin type hybrid or just regular Red Rubins.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> This looks much more akin to the sword I have pictured in my tank. This leads me to believe that the plant I have is actually a Rubin, not a Kleiner Bär. It certainly doesn't fit the description of "Small Bear."


It is a Rubin. But the real Kleiner Bar isn't exactly little either. They can easily outgrow a 75.


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## EDGE (Feb 28, 2004)

A small (dwarf) sword is about 12 to 16" in comparison to a normal sword of around 18-24". 

The same sword plant can have different looking leaves in different condition. When N is low, the leaves will grow narrower. When CO2 is low, the leaves will not grow as long (tall). 

With that said, you are better off comparing to the photo in Plantfinder. Gomer's photo of the Kleiner Bar is submersed grown form.


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## alexperez (Oct 8, 2004)

Look at this thread for a pic of the one I sold a few days ago. it #6
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=12684
I've been keeping them for over a year now. And here is my observation about the plant.

The new leaves will usually start out with a red color (Not as red as the pic though) then as the leaf grows it will get greener. If Nitrates are kept low it will get redder.

Depending on Light and CO2 it will get large or stay somewhat small.
In my 75G It would reach the top of the tank and then send out stalks that have 1 or 2 baby plants on them. In my 20G it has kept a height of about 6", it is usually shaded by other plants.

Leaf shape will vary depending on Light and CO2. With high light and CO2 the leaves will get taller and slimmer (But never seen it as slim as the one in your pic), Low Light/Low CO2 the leaves will stay shorter and get much wider. Very Low Light and the stalks of the leaf will get long (Guess its trying to reach for the light).

It can be kept in check by removing leaves that are to big. I have also kept it in check by trimming the roots way down. But I stopped that since it would make a mess.

Regards,
Alex
The one that AZ Gardens sold you does not look like a Kleiner Bar at all.


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## Luke (Mar 30, 2004)

wow guys, thanks for the tips and sharring your expierence.
thanks alex, i was going to purchase from AZGardens, i will search on Aquabid, or if you have any you want to sell, i am open to purchassing.
if it even has just a bit of red to that would be alright. i have a red-theme going in my 40 gal. [red lotus, rummynose tetras, cherry shrimp, i pair of cherry barbs {1 male+1 female}] other fish are black and white, 4 corries, and hopefully a handful of zebra ottos, and maybe some SAE's]
KleinerBar would be a great addition to my tank.
thanks again guys for all the discussion.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> KleinerBar would be a great addition to my tank.


For a little while, maybe. But again, they do eventually get *large*. Ask AaronT....


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

It is not much different than any other sword. Grows well under moderate to bright light, responds well to root feeding. Pretty easy to grow, and a very interesting plant for the unique coloration... kinda of a bronze red. I just got some of these my self.

Salt, your picture is definetly a Red Rubin, not a Kleiner bar sword, and the small picture that you said AP is using for both the red rubin and the Kleiner bar is definetly a Red Rubin, and the picture is taken from the Teepot book. Keiner bar does not have the yellow veins in the leaves, and the leaves are never narrow and upright. This picture I am using is taken by Hawkeye, and pictures of plants he bought from me. I am sure you guys remember Hawkeye.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Would be nice if I could get a real Kleiner Bär... I had a pretty strong feeling that it was "too good to be true" when I saw it on azgardens originally.

Anyone know where I can get the real thing and not get ripped off again?


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## Tharst (Jan 29, 2006)

I grow the REAL Kleiner Bar, unlike some scammers. Unfortunately I don't have any stock availabe at the moment.... just gave them away, but I'll be sure to let you know when I have new plantlets ready.


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## Luke (Mar 30, 2004)

i would also be interested in knowing when you have some available.
or
if there is any other red-tinted sword-like plant that would do nicely in moderate light, i am open to suggestions.
thanks


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Well, I have them just like the picture I posted. They are currently perhaps a little larger than what is in that picture, and a coulple of the plants have baby plants growing on them, (another sign of the real thing, Red Rubins do not produce runners). I am sure Aquarium Plants probably has them as well.


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## opiesilver (Dec 30, 2004)

Salt said:


> I see aquariumplants.com also has them available. Interestingly, for the picture of the plant, they are using the same picture as they are for the Red Rubin sword they sell:


Sorry, we didn't have a decent camera when we started selling these and a rubin was the closest thing I had that looked like it. If I remember to do it this week I'll update the photo.


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## opiesilver (Dec 30, 2004)

Robert Hudson said:


> Well, I have them just like the picture I posted. They are currently perhaps a little larger than what is in that picture, and a coulple of the plants have baby plants growing on them, (another sign of the real thing, Red Rubins do not produce runners). I am sure Aquarium Plants probably has them as well.


They're so common now I think everyone does. It can't be just the two of us anymore.


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## Gumby (Aug 1, 2005)

alexperez is right on. My experience with this plant was the exact same. New leaves start out brillant red but later fade to an olive green. Mine sent out a runner every month with 2-3 plantlets and flowers. It got to the point that it was taking up 1/3 of my 125 so I sold it to the LFS.

As far as finding a true Kleiner Bar, check here in the FS/FT forum. I know that I sent fishmaster#1 a few of my "baby" Kleiner Bars.

Here are some pics of mine from a few months ago:

















Big sword in middle of tank:


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

opiesilver said:


> Sorry, we didn't have a decent camera when we started selling these and a rubin was the closest thing I had that looked like it. If I remember to do it this week I'll update the photo.


Cool!


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