# Jimbo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank



## Jimbo205

Okay, I have it set up. 1 1/2 inches soil (Schultz's Cactus Soil) - only took one bag - and I had purchased like 4-5!
I used string around the tank like someone else had posted a photo of (good idea). I then put 1 1/2 inches of SoilMaster Select on top again using the string idea to keep it consistent (again good idea). I have a heater that automatically keeps the water at 78 degrees Farenheit (I wrote a review on it in the reviews section). And I purchased a Fluval One (I like that!). 

Well, I trimmed my original 10 Gallon Tank which had 5 inches of Gravel and Seachem Onyx subratrate and now it has 2 1/2. The rest I have in a bag. I had enough plants in that tank to fill five 10 Gallon Tanks. 

I moved my Dwarf Sagittaria into my new El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank. It has 20 Watts CF over it on a timer for 12 hours a day. I put my Java Fern which I have been nursing along for the last 6-8 weeks which now has many, many baby leaves popping out into this tank and I remembered to tie it to a small Lava Rock so the Fluval One does not blow it around the tank. 

Now I will wait and see. 

I saw one or two snails in the tank today (good thing) and added some fish flakes to feed them. Now I will wait and see. I would like to see a nice carpet of this plant in the tank and grow at whatever is a normal natural pace. 

Onemindseye and DataGuru, I will need your coaching on this new El Naturale Tank. Anything I need to know? My water has good KH and high GH. I don't need to add calcium carbonate sand to this do I? 

Let me know what is next. 

I saw the coolest BRIGHT ORANGE guppies in PetsMart. Not just on the tail. Solid Orange. Wonderful color. 

Actually, I will need to research again the smallest fish I can put in a tank. Malasian Trumpet Snails? Shrimp? 

Hmmm... What's the next step?


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## onemyndseye

Shrimp... Yes . MTS... Most certainly!  ...

guppys would be excellent fish for your 10g  Or some Endlers perhaps ?


Sounds like you are on track... as far as need to know - Have Patience. Remember that things in NPT's dont nessasarily happen over night. You'll probably have to resist the urge to jump in and make drastic changes when/if you see an initial algae bloom. Dont Panic 

and No... you shouldnt need the calc sand if your water is on the hard side ..actually I have pretty soft water and do pretty well  

You only mention Dwarf Sag and Java fern..... No other plants? If so it would be much better to plant with the widest range possible at first..... heavy on the fast growing stems such as Wisteria. Although I have setup a NPT with only a thick carpet of Sag. and alot of moss, fern, and Anubias.

and post some pics already!!!  

Take care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Jimbo205

I was lucky to create a post last night (this morning - which does 5am count as?).

But thank you for the encouragement.

Right now I am attempting to use the search function to look for photos of everything. (MTS - ENDLERS - WISTERIA, etc).

The search function did not work for me in the photo album. :sad:

I know Dwarf Sag is considered invasive, so I wanted to see what it would look like as a carpet. I did throw in a Java Fern which I am nursing along. It will be curious to see if it grows faster in the El Naturale 10 Gallon tank versus a small vase with Seachem Ferts & the correct lights etc. I have a whole bunch of Java Fern which I am in the process of slowly anchoring to small lava rocks which I have found very helpful for scaping the tank and cleaning when I have to. So much easier than trying to place roots under substrate. Especially when it is as lightweight as SoilMaster Select!

The Hemianthus Micranthemoides I am still trying to grow a big bunch to harvest and then learn how to trim, scape, plant, up front, in the middle and the background. That is a high light plant yes? The other 2 are low/medium light I believe.


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## DataGuru

You'll want a mix of rooted and fast growing floating plants at first. e tennellus is a good grassy foreground plant. My dwarf sag hasn't stayed dwarf and it IS invasive. Gets over a foot tall. I'm constantly having to pull it up to try and have a foreground in my 125 NPT.

Check out dwarf puffers, they'd be neat in a small tank. lots of personality. Killifish are another option. Here are some pics of a few killies, my friend breeds. Guppies and Endlers breed like there's no tomorrow, so if you do go that route, you either need a way to offload them or something to eat them or get all males. Female bettas might also work, if they get along.


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## Jimbo205

> e tennellus is a good grassy foreground plant.


Where is that in plantfinder? I looked on Google Images real quick.



> My dwarf sag hasn't stayed dwarf and it IS invasive. Gets over a foot tall.


 I finally got to speak with a fellow member over the phone about this hobby and obsession. 
(Thank you Justin! What a COOL accent!!) 
He did tell me about your 'Dwarf' Sag. That is amazing. Is it really Dwarf Sag? 
Justin, shipment is being sent out to you on Monday. 
I am amazed at the variety of plants, fish and snails you all speak about. Makes Albany feel like Small-bany. I have been mesmerized by the new PetsMart near my daytime job. The Orange Guppies have caught my attention. The entire fish is solid Orange, not just the tail. I think it is natural. 
I have been going down to the basement to check it every night when I get home from work. My snail is hiding. 
I am waiting for a snail explosion. I want to purchase Seachem Stability but realize that I don't need it.

I am going to give my Mermaid Waterweed and Hemianthus Micranthemoides their first 'haircut'. 
For the HM - I only plan on cutting the very tops to watch what happens next. (I want to grow a HUGE BUNCH of this to see what can be done with this plant and see which tanks I can use this in.) The Mermaid Waterweed - I am going to try to cut enough of one of the stems to start a 3rd stem, and the 2nd I may just clip off the very tip to see what happens next.

I am going to try to find photos of the plants you and Justin talk about. Thank you for that link to the fish. My hoto: photo will come eventually. It really is not that exciting to look at. Very basic, basically. But I will take a snapshot and eventually post it.

What are broad spectrum nitrogenous organics and are proteins bad to have in the water? 
I was re-reading my H2GROW booklet from Seachem after having absorbed mentally most if not all of Diana Walstad's concepts. The plants 'eat' or consume it all, correct?

When are water changes done in an El Naturale tank, if at all, ever?


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## DataGuru

There doesn't appear to be a pic in plantfinder for e tenellus. here's one at tropica. Here's what tropica says about the sagittaria. here it is in plantfinder. Mine stayed very short when planted in gravel. It really likes soil tho and went nuts. You can see the progression here.

You don't get the nitrAte build up in NPTs because ammonia gets converted into plant mass instead of into nitrAte. Other organics do build up over time. I average a couple of partial water changes a year in my NPTs. If fish and plants look happy, I don't worry about it.


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## cs_gardener

Another good time to do water changes is when you disturb the substrate by pulling plants or moving them around. Try to keep the dirt out of the water column as much as possible to avoid algae issues.


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## Jimbo205

Dataguru (Betty) those links and your tank(s) is/are incredible! I will need to take a second look at all of it again!



> Other organics do build up over time.


 So Purigen may be useful (in one tank) but not a necessity. 
Just trying to resort all these planted tank concepts in my head (biology, chemistry, natural science, marketing pitches, truth as I know it at the current moment as applies to tanks (ha, ha)).

So change the water when working on the tank, but do not stress over it correct? That's where I am at at the moment.

Which is interesting because someone in another thread was questioning my 5% water change (not mine) in my posted Seachem Daily Dosage Schedule. I had only adjusted the numbers according to the size of the tank (from 9cups to 27 Gallons) but not the recommended doses. I figure Seachem knows what they are doing, and now 5% seems like a VERY reasonable amount. 50% water change sounds like someone needing some chores to do, or poisoning their system with too much of something. I loved Robert's analogy of pigging out on food and then purging oneself. That had me laughing like crazy. He painted quite a picture. And from another thread with a very intelligent person torturing himself the high tech way, this stuff is making more sense. Just takes awhile to figure it all out.

Catherine, I will try to do that. What do you do when a plant shows Potassium deficiency issues? Seachem Potassium or find (somehow) a store that knows what this stuff called Potash is? I finally found out that Calcium Carbonate was that stuff in my son's hermit crab cage that looks like sand. That only took 4-8 months to figure out! :smile:


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## bpimm

Jimbo,

Where's the pics....

if you find a deficiency you can add the needed substance to the soil by injecting it with a syringe, I just had a Calcium/Magnesium deficiency in my 80. to correct it I made a slurry out of dolomite and injected it into the soil around the affected plant. now it's getting better.

Here is my tool of choice.










When you look for potash or other ferts try a nursery supply.

Brian


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## Jimbo205

> dolomite


 I read about that in Diana Walstad's book - Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Unfortunately for some of us city people, we need to learn what these things are. That is also why some of ask specifically what to buy in the store and where to get it. I know some of our fellow members in the NYC area (I am upstate) do not have the luxury of being able to go to their backyard to dig up some dirt. 
I was very happy to find out after many, many months that the stupid Calcium Carbonate that I was looking for (out of pure curiousity because I have read about it so much on APC and this hobby - not because I actually need it). My water has a KH of 3-4 degrees 53.7 - 71.6 ppm and 50 degrees GH or 895ppm in my 10 Gallon with the Seachem Onyx and in my 27 Gallon the GH is 13 degrees or 232ppm. After using Seachem Acid Buffer for quite some time and then learning from Seachem that I should not use it in the tank with the Seachem Onyx (something about using it too much would add too many salts over time). I also eventually learned that my hard water is GOOD for aquatic plants so I don't mess with pH or GH anymore. I do test pH from time to time just to check (when cleaning the tank). But after running out of the dropper liquid for the GH - I just have not bothered to get any more.

Thank you for the recommendation for the potash at the local nursery. To take a tangent for a moment. What would I use that for in an Organic Square Foot Garden? I assume that it is good for plants. I had my first Square Foot Garden this summer, and I currently know more about dirt than the actual vegetables. I wish I could find something similar to APC for gardens. Any suggestions? Okay back to topic.

I am going to post photos. They may be good, or they may not be so good. I was actually much happier with some of my photos with this. I have become frustrated with my digital camera when it comes to getting VERY CLOSE UP photos of plants pearling or fish etc. I was very happy when some of the photos were NOT blurry. My local Rite Aid had a good assortment of Magnifying Glasses which I may get another one or try the one I have to see what I can do about getting those GREAT closeups. I am NOT going to blow $$$$$$ getting a new digital camera. I would feel like a complete ass if I spent that kind of money on myself to take photos of my tanks. Of course, I CAN try to talk dear old Dad into bringing his old 35mm cameras with his tripod...... I can tell him I am trying to take a photo of a moss or a closeup of some plant in the backyard. He's a biologist. That will be up his alley. 
I have 3mL syringes from my Cozmo pump. If someone else would have some use for them (legal & safe) I would gladly stop throwing them out and 'recycle' them. Injecting into substrate or 'dirt'. Now I have seen that in a thread before. It's just a new one, even to me. Okay onto the photos. hoto:


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## Jimbo205




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## Jimbo205

Well, as you can see, I still have some of my fish flakes swirling around on top waiting for them all to precipitate completely to the substrate. I think I only have one snail in this tank at the moment. I have no shortage of them in either of my 'big' tanks, so if I found the need I could move a bunch to this tank. 
I am surprised to see in the photos how SoilMaster Select looks much larger than it is. I did not post the photos that I have of when I was nursing the Java Fern along. I did this for the challenge, not for any particular need. Java Fern I have no shortage of. And I have found I really do like using it once I have gotten it attached to the Lava Rocks using fishing line. I will put these in this tank soon. I am just afraid of overcrowding this tank the way my other tanks became. But it was really cool to see how many plants that I did have and how well they had done. 

Tell me about MTS. How are they different than regular snails? Are they extremely beneficial to the substrates, soil, roots and root hairs? 

Floating plants would be cool. 

I like the photos so much better when they seem to have a bluish tint to them rather than a yellowish tint to them. The angle of the camera to the glass is the only difference in these shots. 

I look forward to more of your comments. 

I have absolutely no skill at all in aquascaping. But I do like the idea of having hiding places for the fish if they want it, while still giving them plenty of room to swim. That is when I add fish.


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## bpimm

Jimbo,

Farming in dirt is very similar to farming in a tank, the plants have similar needs.

The potash and Dolomite and many other additives should be available at any store that has a gardening section for terrestrial plants. I would go over the ingredients and ask questions here to see if any of them might cause a problem. I have a tendancy to experiment and just see what happens. 

Don't think you are alone on the learning curve, that Calcium/Magnesium deficency I just fixed is the first successful diagnosis and treatment I have ever pulled off. as for growing veggies, I don't even try any more. 

Close ups are hard to pull off with the Digital pocket cameras. With mine I'm always fighting the auto focus, it never seems to pick what I want to focus on or it picks the glass. Mine has a good macro settimg that allows for some pretty good closeups but I think for a good closeup in the tank you need manual focus. I'm with you on the big dollar cameras, I just can't justify it nor do I have the skills to actually use it. for now I'll just keep using my cheapy cannon A410 that I got for $70.00 as an addon when my son bought his printer.


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## bpimm

The tank is looking good, if you are worried about over crowding in the long run you can add some fast growing plants in pots that way you can remove them without disturbing the substrate when the plants take off, I think you want as heavy of a plant load as you can get to start out. you can test the water for ammonia and nitrite and if there isn't any you can add fish right away. I put fish in the day after setup and didn't need to change the water until the green water came along.

You can probably talk Justin out of some water lettuce for a nice floating plant, I got some from him. I might not be fighting the greenwater as much had I put it in to start with.

What other plants do you have to put in? and what are you looking for?

Brian


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## onemyndseye

".......You can probably talk Justin out of some water lettuce ......"

Sure  I even have a nice insulated shipping box that SOMEONE sent me 


You are correct on needing a very high plant density at first. If for no other reason simply as a saftey net against nutrient spikes.


".....Tell me about MTS. How are they different than regular snails? Are they extremely beneficial to the substrates, soil, roots and root hairs?....."

MTS are great little snails. Cone shaped with very hard shells - most fish cant eat them. The burrow into the subtrate for about the first 1-2" and help alot in keeping organic matter stirred under instead of sitting on the surface of the gravel. Great little janitors. Oh.... and I dont think they'd eat a live plant even if you starved them.

If youd like some water lettuce and MTS I can include those with the other things that we spoke about. Maybe add a couple more things to it and I can fill up the shipping box you sent me and send it back your direction 

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Jimbo205

> and what are you looking for?


 Don't really know yet. I know from the names of all the plants that Justin and Betty mentioned - I don't have any of those. I know that I can very easily remove, move or add the Java Ferns. I know I want the Dwarf Sagittaria to form a nice carpet. I do have some crypts that I have not done anything to help multiply or spread them. (Why mess with a good thing, you know?)

I am a little gunshy about overcrowding my new tank. My original 10 Gallon became WAY OVERCROWDED. I would prefer to avoid the jungle look. Or plants that are difficult to move or remove.

On this tank, I am open to new ideas, plants and creatures. 

At this point, I am enjoying watching the snails slowly multiply (I moved some into the new tank - and I am actually feeding snails) and between them and the plants - watch the tank slowly cycle. (How can you tell by the way?)



> If youd like some water lettuce and MTS I can include those with the other things that we spoke about. Maybe add a couple more things to it and I can fill up the shipping box you sent me and send it back your direction


 COOL!!! This is better than going shopping for Christmas on Black Friday. First time I have ever gotten out of that store with 1 thing or less. Weird. Of course - I did a sneak attack on the wife - I showed her the tiny White Clouds and Danios in the pet section for a whooping 2 seconds. I have never seen a fish so tiny. Actually seeing tiny fish is so different than reading about them.

But a surprise box from Santa; now that rocks!!!


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## Jimbo205

*Green Water*



> I put fish in the day after setup and didn't need to change the water until the green water came along.
> 
> You can probably talk Justin out of some water lettuce for a nice floating plant, I got some from him. I might not be fighting the greenwater as much had I put it in to start with.


 Green Water. Okay, I remember that mentioned in Diana's book.

What are those tiny creatures that 'eat' green water? Fry? Daphnia? Water fleas?

Or do I do a blackout?

Or is this part of the tank 'cycling' ?

Unlike another member that is EXTREMELY intelligent that likes to torture himself/herself the High Tech Way; 
I am willing to wait before screwing with whatever is going on in the tank.

I will wait for my El Naturale coaches to fill me in with their collective experience and wisdom.

I would rather work with nature than screw with it.

[smilie=b: So dirt is alive; so that means that green water is.........good/bad, neither? :mrgreen:


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## DataGuru

daphnia love to eat pea soup algae. 

Think of green algae as a plant with LOTS of surface area. It's not inherantly bad for fish, tho it can generate a lot of CO2 during lights out. it does shade the plants and competes with them for nutrients. Using floating plants that don't have to compete with the suspended algae for light and CO2 helps.


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## bpimm

Jimbo,

I wouldn't worry about green water until it shows it's head, adding the floating plants as a preemptive strike is all you really need to do, for now. as for the overcrowding issue go to wal*mart, in the garden section they have 2" clay pots for something like $.39 ea. put in 1" soil covered with gravel stick the plant in and plop it in the tank. when the tank fills in pull them out and sell, trade give away, or put in another tank. I use a small piece of plastic grocery bag to cover the drain hole in the pot, to keep the dirt and roots in the pot.

Brian


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## Jimbo205

> daphnia love to eat pea soup algae.


 I hope my local fish store has these. This sounds cool.



> Using floating plants that don't have to compete with the suspended algae for light and CO2 helps.


 I am waiting on Santa. 



> I wouldn't worry about green water until it shows it's head


 Would light green water count?



> go to wal*mart, in the garden section they have 2" clay pots for something like $.39 ea. put in 1" soil covered with gravel stick the plant in and plop it in the tank. when the tank fills in pull them out and sell, trade give away, or put in another tank. I use a small piece of plastic grocery bag to cover the drain hole in the pot, to keep the dirt and roots in the pot.


 I love this group!

This is SO much more USEFUL and PRACTICAL than listening to the PhD gods talk about measuring the subatomic particles in the water that you can change by purchasing some exotic piece of machinery from Germany! I even know the same of the store! I can do this! This is so cool.

I can't wait until one of the kids sees what is going inside the tank and ASKS. Oh boy, more natural science for them to learn. I make my kids learn how to spell the names of the plants and creatures when they ask what they are . It's a Dad thing.

At Thanksgiving I learned that my Dad actually has Red Wrigglers at his house. The Worm House at Gardener's Supply in VT costs $120 and the worms are like $40.

This is so cool. I am going to have to print this stuff out!


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## Satirica

> This is SO much more USEFUL and PRACTICAL than listening to the PhD gods talk about measuring the subatomic particles in the water that you can change by purchasing some exotic piece of machinery from Germany!


This is completely off topic but... those of us with PhDs do not often fit the stereotype underlying that statement.


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## Jimbo205

> This is completely off topic but... those of us with PhDs do not often fit the stereotype underlying that statement.


 Great!

And you are right. One of my best buddies who works at General Electric's Global Research center in Niskayuna has a PhD and is one of the most humble, down to earth men I have met. Then again Dr. Bob Grove and Dr. Peter Meschter who I also know and work nearby there are also. All three - I just to listen to when I have had the chance.

I correct myself. I need another way to express this.

Some PhD's are wonderful people that are great wonderful teachers that have a passion for what they know and research and pass that passion on to us other adults that just love to hear about their passion and love of learning. I appreciate anyone willing to take the time out and patiently pass along knowledge to those of us willing to learn.

But I have found other adults, not just in this hobby, quite frankly many fields *that just assume that everyone else knows what they know*. And they have a tendency to just bowl people over verbally or mentally and make them feel like idiots. The topic could be cars, contracting, plumbing, accounting, chemistry, physics, computers, financial services, you name it.

Honestly, I don't care if I sound like an idiot trying to learn what other people know. I just love to learn.

(Okay, financial services personally is the hardest thing in the entire world to study - for me. But in the end, I love people and want to help them and all my friends and family become as rich and secure as possible. When I have finished with this, you better believe I will share everything I can with those in the states that I am licensed in.)

Liz, what would be a better way to express what I am trying to say? I plan to use it.

And as a side note Liz, what is your specialty? And welcome aboard APC. Glad to have you here!


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## Jimbo205

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=221651&postcount=12

I figured out PermaLink's! Yeah!


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## Satirica

Jimbo, I think you pretty much said it all. 

My specialty is running (or maybe that is ruining) companies. About 15 years ago it was chemistry.


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## Jimbo205

> Jimbo, I think you pretty much said it all.


 I meant as a more succinct phrase (or accurate) behind the concept. Kind of like - Mean people suck. Or - Dr's do it better. Something catchy.

Chemistry is cool.



> My specialty is running (or maybe that is ruining) companies.


 Huh? What's that mean?


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## Jimbo205

> Quote:
> My specialty is running (or maybe that is ruining) companies.
> 
> Huh? What's that mean?


 I don't need to understand. (Althought I WANT to.)

But someone needs a bearhug. :hug:

My good friend has given me some insight into at least one PhD. When projects are due, and the pressure is on, and the data is needed and the project is one of two for the whole year - they (my friend) pray. Even if the technicians are watching. When 1000's of factors are interplaying - there is a lot for them to consider.

PhD's are smart. But they are human too. They too need buddies to share the load after work, and encouragement. And hugs.

Satirica, something really, really good is about to come your way; or drop right in your lap.


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## Satirica

Sorry, Jimbo, I missed your response. 

I haven't worked in chemsitry for the last 12 years. I am now a hired gun who fixes companies that have problems, in addition to doing a few marketing services. 

I think that folks with PhDs are not any smarter than anyone else. Some are brilliant and some are not, just like everyone else. Most PhDs are awarded to people who are exceptionally determined, but that can change over a lifetime.


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## Tentacles

Satirica, I keep waiting for your toes to trickle off together and run into the soles of your feet... it's quite a mesmerising avatar... comes of living in crooked houses, I suppose... no spillage stays still.

I came to say something about algae... oh... don't panic. I recently had an algae outbreak and someone came to pick up some fish and looked quite alarmed at the greeness until I pointed out that the water was great quality and the snail outbreak that had cleared up one whole section. The snails have now completely cleaned up everything, every last strand of java moss. Easiest clean up job ever.


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## Jimbo205

Tentacles, I needed a good laugh. That part about the toes in Satirica's Avatar had me splitting my side. That is a really cool Avatar!

Well photos will come with the latest update. Taking photos is easy. Taking the time to upload them off the camera and then getting them on the thread takes time. I hope they come out well.

Considering that I was trying to take photos of the cool trimmings and some shrimp that Urkevitz dropped off to me at work - I can only hope. He really had the coolest looking plants. All packaged in the most beautiful 2 liter bottle! I was so excited that I actually got to meet someone that knows so much about this AND lives nearby me! 
I love these friends from California, but never the same as being able to get together with someone local.

Anyway, I did not have the time tonight to properly secure the stems in the substrate (fantastic shoots and roots on them!) so I let the plants float in the water for today. Taking a photo of them was not easy with the glare of the light from above. But I tried. I had fun watching these tiny shimp flit around the tank. The big one is there somewhere. I just couldn't see him once he got in the tank.

I took photos of the 2 liter tank before I emptied into my El Naturale 10 Gallon tank.

Urkevitz, please tell me again the names of the plants you gave me. I know some was HM. Some looked like Rotala. One looked like Cabomba, but I remember you telling me it was something else gathered locally.

This guy is so smart, he knows how to find plants and fish locally to go in a home aquarium and keep them going in much cooler water. I have so much to learn from him.

Urkevitz, I look forward to your posts here in this thread. 
I think that you are incredibly brilliant both from your thread, 75 Gallon tank, etc.

I look forward to everyone's suggestions and coaching too.

Well everyone, the snails and shrimp looked very happy and at home in this tank.

Another time I will tell the story of my last visit to Union Aquarium with my oldest son. (He has never reacted that way before, it was really neat!)



> Check out dwarf puffers, they'd be neat in a small tank. lots of personality. Killifish are another option.


 DataGuru, I GOT TO SEE THESE IN THE STORE. Wow. They are tiny. And you are right, great personality. To be honest with you, if they were any bigger - I would say they were ugly. But at the tiny size they are - Wow! Really Neat! I have also been looking at the Endlers, White Clouds and Danios. I am not sure if I have seen the Killifish or not. Maybe. You had a link to them? Then I did.


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## schaadrak

If you go with a dwarf puffer, stay away from Malaysian Trumpeter snails. The shells are too thick and they'll crack the puffers' beak.


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## dwalstad

Jimbo205 said:


> DOLOMITE: I read about that in Diana Walstad's book - Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Unfortunately for some of us city people, we need to learn what these things are. That is also why some of ask specifically what to buy in the store and where to get it.:


My dictionary describes dolomite as a white, pink or grey mineral, essentially CaMg(CO3)2. It is sedimentary rock resembling limestone and used in construction, ceramics, and also as a fertilizer.

You would be surprised how much information is in dictionaries.


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## Jimbo205

*Common Knowledge*



> My dictionary describes dolomite as a white, pink or grey mineral, essentially CaMg(CO3)2. It is sedimentary rock resembling limestone and used in construction, ceramics, and also as a fertilizer.


 I appreciate that feedback, but in the stores that are nearby my home and work - if I went in to the store and asked for it by that description I would get a blank stare by half the staff. Maybe incredible but true.

Honestly with all the information I have learned here on APC, when I go into my local fish store and start talking about the hobby with the plants - some of the time they know what I am talking about and sometimes they just look at me and listen. The fish they know. The rest - a lot of the time, they don't. That is one of the reasons that I am trying to get signs to put up in my local fish stores, to promote APC, the hobby and the knowledge that comes with it.


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## Jimbo205

> If you go with a dwarf puffer, stay away from Malaysian Trumpeter snails. The shells are too thick and they'll crack the puffers' beak.


 schaadrak, you are kidding right? These fish looked small enough for a snail to beat up if the snail could move fast enough. Honestly I am seriously thinking about getting one or two of these just because they are so small and so unique looking.

Well, here is the list of new plants I got from Urkevitz. They were just enough trimmings to do well planted in a 10 Gallon tank with the previous Dwarf Sagittaria and Java Fern already in the tank. Here they are: Ranunculas Flaberellis, Elodea Canadensis, Sunset Hygro and Taiwon Moss. Also some shrimp. Urkevitz, what type of shrimp were these again?

Well, tonight I planted the new plants in the substrate. They were only floating in the tank for about 5 days. I tried using tongs and that lasted for about 60 seconds. After that I used the simple technique of using finger and sticking plant as deep into substrate without completely burying the plant. Worked pretty well.

The SoilMaster Select Red with Soil underneath (1.5 inches of each in tank) were SO SOFT, it was really neat. The SoilMaster Select is EXTREMELY light to work with, so I was happy I had the depth to push the plants into. I was so afraid the plants would keep popping up.

I also put the 3 rocks that Urkevitz donated to me. Possibly dark shale with some white strips in them. Nice character and just the right sizes. I had to remember for a bit that members use these as 'hardscape'. That was fun to play with figuring out where to fit these around the tank and between the plants. I am so thrilled to see more runners sprouting for the Dwarf Sagittaria.

The shrimp are fun to watch 'fly' through the tank along with the snails. I have no clue how much to feed them or how much not to feed them, so I just feed them. :biggrin:

I would like to move my Female Betta from my regular 10 Gallon tank to this tank because I think she killed one or two of my very tiny regular neons. The other fish are fine, but I don't like to lose fish.

My son got all excited at the local fish store the other week because he thought he saw a shrimp 'kill' a neon and then jump all over it and devour it. I was watching too, but I thought the fish had already died. Well, I have never seen my 10 year old so excited. To him, these tanks have always been ho-hum to him. But he was thrilled to see the shrimp 'attack' and 'eat' the neon. He kept talking about it for the next 20-30 minutes at the store and on the way home. Of course, if he had cleaned up his room the way his mother and I wanted, AND moved his desk in front of his window; I had originally planned on putting the 10 Gallon El Naturale tank right in his room. Instead I have a 2.5 Gallon Tank on a shelf by his window. After waiting FOREVER, I finally put a handful of snails in there, some plant mulm from my Betta Bowl at the Office that I had brought home, a bunch of fish food wafers and a tiny Java Fern that I have attached to a barbeque Lava Rock (I love that color rock!). I will wait and see what happens. The tank has no heater, but from what Urkevitz told me, my tanks can be a lot cooler than they are and the shrimp, plants and (fish?) may actually do as well if not better. I will experiment with that one. Anyway, this tank is too small for a heater (I think) but I notice the 'steam' or condensation on the top of the tank. It comes with a very attractive glass lid with a nice label that says MARINELAND on it that seems to keep the heat in. Makes it look warmer than I think it is.

Well, I guess next on the list may be the Daphnia. I assume they eat the same stuff as shrimp and snails. I don't think my water is green anymore, but I hope to have some when I add these to the 'family' in this tank. This tank is so different from any of my other tanks. I am trying things in this tank that I would NEVER have thought of or might work in my other tanks.

hoto: Photos coming next. :biggrin:


----------



## Jimbo205

Photobucket time! These are contributions and donations from Urkevitz. He is very shy on the forums, but a great guy and very smart when it comes to this hobby. I was able to meet him when he dropped off this wonderful gift at my workplace. I was also thrilled to finally meet a member that lived in the Capital Region. I am not sure how well the photos came out, but here they are:


































































































































































































I hope some of these came out. When I have time, I will go to the Plantfinder and find out which name matches with which plant. They all seem to be doing just fine! Nice and easy. I like that!


----------



## Satirica

Jimbo205 said:


> I appreciate that feedback, but in the stores that are nearby my home and work - if I went in to the store and asked for it by that description I would get a blank stare by half the staff. Maybe incredible but true.


If you went into a Home Depot or a plant nursery and asked for "Dolomite" as "Dolomite" they would know exactly what you are talking about.


----------



## Jimbo205

I'll give it a shot. 

This hobby has grown from a hobby into an obsession. 

I now have MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome) and I am STILL learning stuff about this. I'll let you know how many staff people I get transferred to and from looking for this. Maybe I am wrong. That would be nice. I would be thrilled to find someone in a store that knows what I am looking for. 

My Opthalmalogist was thrilled that I knew the name of the fish (Cichlids) in his father's tank in their office (75-150 Gallons?). I gave him the website for APC. Tongue in cheek I asked the good doctor if his dad (another doctor in the same office) was good at biology, chemistry and maybe botany. I assume he is phenomenal at it. Their office is across the street from my workplace, so I may drop by again to see if Sr. is available to chat tanks. It needs a light. An AHSupply light. But then again, when you are a doctor you can afford anything they sell on the market. What made it even more fun was that another patient commented that the Cichlids looked washed out (to me I thought that was true with no light on the tank). I was even more impressed that the receptionists even knew that the Blue Cichlids were breeding with the Yellow Cichlids thereby washing the Bright Blue out. I was impressed. The tank had been moved from their other office just the day beforehand. From overhearing the receptionists converse, I never would have assumed that they had any interest in such things. It is great to be wrong and surprised. I may actually have a whopping 2 people or more in my area that might be into this hobby. :jaw: :faint2:


----------



## DataGuru

That's looking good! 
You oughta check and see if there's an aquarium club near you.


----------



## Jimbo205

Betty, that sounds like a great idea. I am not sure if that is on Santa's list this year, but someday. 

Meanwhile at our company party Friday night, I got to talk to some of the guys that were NOT in our line of work but Carpentry (used to work as an Engineer FAR from home most of the time) and a guy in contracting. When I mentioned Dolomite - he said Fuller's Earth. Black Powder he said. He asked what it was for. I kind of dodged the question. But he did confirm the idea of getting an blank stare from staff at Home Depot. Seems at least in our area, Home Depot scores VERY LOW points from contractors that shop. But he did confirm that a local gardening store such as Hewitt's or True Value should have staff that are familiar with such products. 

Betty, without APC I would be lost. Rohape saw my first photo posted. Nothing compared to now. Thank goodness. I am going to check your link. 
Thank you as always :smile: 

Betty, I may have asked before - which fish would you recommend for a tank with growing baby Cherry shrimp (natural brown color) ? I assume I should wait until I have a good sized bunch of them. Yes / No ?


----------



## Satirica

Hey Jimbo. I'm not certain from what you wrote exactly what the guy said but Fuller's Earth is not the same thing as dolomite.


----------



## Jimbo205

Well, considering I was not willing to tell him at the time what it was for, he guessed wrong. Engineer, carpenter, at company party does not always guarantee a perfect answer. Thank you for correcting that misinformation!


----------



## DataGuru

I dunno. If you just have that shrimp culture, it may be best to not put fish in it. I'd be more inclined to put extra cherry shrimp in heavily planted tanks with fish and see what happens.

I was pleasently suprised to find cherry shrimp babies in one of the NPTs I have at work with a male betta in it. In the other betta tank, a shrimp walked right by the crowntail betta and he didn't even flare at it. these may not be typical tho. Ingrid's betta apparently just feasted on some shrimp. LOL


----------



## bpimm

Jimbo,

I have dwarf rasboras in with my shrimp, and my shrimp population is exploding. when the first batch of babies started moving around I saw a couple go down to the rasboras but now they ignore them. 

I also just tried to put some shrimp in with my sparkling gourami's and they methodically hunted them down and ate them. none left by morning so I guess the gourami's are a bad choice.  

I'll throw a few in with my daughter's beta and see what happens... oh I can' try that there is a bumblebee catfish in that tank.. SLURP BURP "yo thanks for the shrimp dude"

Brian


----------



## Jimbo205

So if I ever put a fish in here, 
any suggestions on something I should put in the tank for the shrimp to hide in (besides plants) ? 

I suppose I should ask my son too, since he finally caught 'the bug' and is now very EXCITED about the shrimp! 

Utilitarian will do for now. 

Utilitarian and good looking would be great. Ideas?

Betty and Brian, thank you for the feedback!


----------



## Jimbo205

By the way, after a VERY LONG SEARCH this is the best I could come up with for my zip code of 12306.

CDMAS.ORG

Capital District Marine Aquarists Society

I suppose if I can learn Tom Barr's or others' methods of growing plants in brackish or marine salt water, I MIGHT be able to make the stretch.

Although honestly, at this point I find salt water fish attractive (the cheap ones) but coral just does not do anything for me. The IDEA of keeping coral alive sounds interesting, but for all the hassle In My Humble Opinion (only current opinion) they just look like UGLY ROCKS. Fish-Beautiful. Coral-UGLY COMPLICATED ROCKS. In ten to twenty years, and $$$$ I will change my mind.

So that is what Albany has. Yipee. Hey, I recognize one of the guys in their photos from staff at Eddies Aquarium.


----------



## aquariageek

Jimbo-

Do you have any FTS of your El Natural?
Did the tannins clear from the water yet?

Speaking of Saltwater- I have been lurking Nano-Reef.com - The source for nano reef aquarium information and I have to stop myself from starting one up, even though I really want to. I thought that the costs added up quick with a planted tank...!


----------



## Jimbo205

I am sorry, I don't know what FTS stands for. 

Yes, I think the tannins cleared up. I will try to get an updated photo (1). 

The plants are doing VERY well, and I like how EASY this tank is. Eventually I will get a fish. Honestly, I am enjoying how low maintenance this is. It is so different from my other tanks and it takes hardly any time. That's great!

Is even a Nano Reef tank very expensive ($$$) ? If so, I will scratch that off my list. :smile:


----------



## SKSuser

Hi Jimbo!
You said that you're around Albany right?

If you have trouble finding dolomite, a ceramics store is sure to have it as its used very often and is always called by that name. Try a ceramics store named "Color me Mine' in Stuyvesant Plaza
Here's a try at a link for you.

Based on internet prices, it should cost somewhere between .75-$1 per pound when bought by the pound as a clay or glaze additive. That price may be a little low since internet usually sells for less.

Ahhhh, a nano tank. How I'd love to have one. But alas.....
Several hundred I'm guessing for a little self contained unit. More if you go crazy with a custom job, or less if you make all your own parts and fit them to a drilled 10g. Skimmers and all the other accessories are not optional in my opinion when you're dealing with $30 fish and $100 polyps. Even then, I'm not sure I'd trust a biosystem that small with the lives of anything but commonest(read "cheapest") breeds of hardy marine life I could find.


----------



## schaadrak

A simple box made out of eggcrate held together with zip-ties would make a nice little refuge for your shrimp. You could even pile some rocks on top of it to hide it if you like. Or even better, tie some moss to the top of it.


----------



## Jimbo205

Jesse - surprise, surprise! Somehow my wife knows what dolomite is. Honestly by now I forgot what I wanted it for anyway. My tanks are doing great without it. I guess I was just trying to understand and follow along. With my wife's encouragement (whenever) I will eventually get some of this just for the heck of it. And with your GREAT HELP, I now know EXACTLY where to get it! One of my wife's stores is in the same shopping plaza!

schaadrak, do you think a pile of barbeque lava rocks would accomplish the same thing? I love the color of those in my tanks. And the plants seem to like them too!

(What does your signature mean?) I like it. It looks really cool.


----------



## Jimbo205

Well, I am having such a blast with this El Naturale tank! It is so different than the other ones!

Practically no maintenance at all. I do have to take the sponge out of the filter when it is not circulating the water well enough. But that is SO EASY. Just take out. Rinse. Replace back where it came from. And the shrimp and fish love the current which goes right down the length of the tank about a third way up from the bottom. Which ever gets in the stream goes for a ride. I think they do it for fun honestly. 

One or two of the Endlers is just starting to show a little color. It is so fun to watch them go after and eat frozen brine shrimp. And what they don't get to, the shrimp do. 

My shrimp have multiplied to the point that I can picture in the future trying to catch some (siphon tube maybe???) and put them into the other tanks. I do like them. Of course, the fact that they are doing well in one tank adds to the fun. I saw a female shrimp tonight that looks like she is about to EXPLODE with babies. That will be fun to see after it happens. Meanwhile, I can see the smaller what to me look like baby shrimp. My enders don't even know enough to think of them as food, considering that they are both almost the same size. 

This tank also has some plants that change to a beautiful rosy reddish color close enough to the light. I may be overfeeding a bit, but I figure what the fish don't eat the shrimp will. 

Between snails and shrimp, will the shrimp clean up the extra BEFORE THE SNAILS ????????????

I do wish I had a proper camera to take photos of this tank. But I don't. And if I took photos of the tank, they would not do it justice. The beauty is in the tiny details. 

I don't want to trim the plants and scape until I feel confident about the population of my Endlers and shrimp. 

But I did want to share some of the joy with the rest of you. 

Have any of you had success with Hatching and Breeding San Francisco Brand Brine Shrimp? If you have, please let me know. I would love to have more success than I have had so far..


----------



## Jimbo205

*April 2007 - Hatching Brine Shrimp - Tropical Fish Hobbyist*

Success!!!

I was finally successful hatching SFBB Brine Shrimp for my Endler Fry!

I now have 2 definite males with wonderful colors showing, 4 females which are gaining in size and 1 which has the shape of a female but is just starting to show color.

There is this FANTASTIC article in the April 2007 issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist by Gary Lange and Mike Helleg. I found it extremely motivating. I found the concept amazing that a hobbyist could feed live food for basically pennies per day. I read the article over, and over and over again.

I understood how the temperature was extremely important to the results as well as using a small amount of baking soda to make sure that the water was hard enough and the pH was high enough. 
I also understood what both authors said about the salinity affecting the results.

Well, I purchased SFBB Shrimpery which is what was on the shelf at the Petsmart nearby my day job. 
Interesting design, the harvest results I do not believe are what they would be with the SFBB Hatchery (which you can make VERY EASILY YOURSELF).

I learned the hard way that if I wanted a harvest that matched anything close to what I saw in the photos in the article, I would need to 
1. Purchase a fresh new batch of eggs. 
2. Use the method of something like the Hatchery or the Upside down soda bottle with bubbler running.

From the reaction of my Endlers (confusion followed by - Wow! This is bite sized compared to Frozen Brine Shrimp), I will wait to see how fast it speeds up their growth and development.

I have learned that Hatching Brine Shrimp is pretty much only truly useful for feeding fish fry or reef creatures.

But the challenge has been conquered!

Yea!!!

If anyone knows how to post a link to the article, please do. 
I did ask permission and was told so long as I gave credit (like above) and asked permission of APC (I did); that it would be fine to link to the article.

For whatever reason, I could not find the article online. 
I have the magazine itself (only read the magazine 2-3 times and the article 50 times).

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/default.aspx?pageid=54


----------



## mistergreen

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

you can feed them microworms too.
It's about as nutritious is BBS.


----------



## ed seeley

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Glad you've got the brine shrimp going. I've always found that the key to having a good hatch is good eggs, but I've never had the San Fransisco type hatch very well!

I've got a bag of Siberian Brine shrimp eggs that are amazing! The hatch rate is awesome and there are so many shrimp from a teaspoonful that i feed them to all my fish. The biggest PITA for me is seperating the unhatched eggs and shells from the shrimp. I treated myself to a proper hatcher with a valve in the base to help with this.

You also need to keep the eggs fresh by storing them in the fridge or they die off quickly IME and the hatch rate plummets.

Microworms are dead easy to grow, I just grow mine on a slice of bread! Get a container, defrost a slice of bread, dampen the back with tap water, place it a plastic container and then put some worms on the surface. After a few days the worms are crawling up the sides and onto the lid.

Both foods are tiny but I feed them to all my fish and they love them.


----------



## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

mistergreen & ed seeley; microworms are EASIER???

How easy is this to do while staying under the spouse boundary / radar?

I figure so long as I keep it in the basement out of the 'cleaning zone' my fish 'projects' are safe. 
She seems cool with most of it, but I don't want her to flip her lid. You know?

The amazing thing is that she thinks I spend way more money on this hobby than I do. I spend 95% of my time researching. 5% doing. about the same on $$. A little here, a little there. Make a dollar stretch.

These are very different than worms or worm eggs that you can purchase for the outdoor garden, correct? These are NOT the same as RED worms are they?

(I may be getting those for the compost pile by the garden outside. The eggs that is. )

These microworms sound like a great idea. Are they really THAT easy?


----------



## ed seeley

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

They're dead easy if you get a good starter culture.

I have mine in four little plastic containers (margarine tubs are ideal, I've got transparent containers from a chinese take-away).

I simply lightly wet a slice of bread and place it, wet side down, on the base of the container. then add the worms on the top. I keep them on top of a fish tank to give it some heat and leave the lids slightly ajar to let the air in. When the bread is totally gone I add another slice and when they start to look a bit grubby i chuck out the old culture, thoroughly clean out the container and start again with worms scraped from the side of the other cultures. I usually clean two out at a time at the most.

To harvest just wait a couple of days and the worms will be climbing up the side of the plastic container. Scrape off and feed to your fish. The only fish I have that turned his nose up at them was one old male Apistogramma. All the other fish, even my wild Angelfish, love them even though they are so tiny.

Isn't it amazing how every penny you spend is noted, but the pairs of shoes creep in without notice....


----------



## schaadrak

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

I have a question on the same topic as breeding/raising brine shrimp.

Why doesn't anyone try fairy shrimp? They're basically freshwater brine shrimp (there's an oxymoron), they have very similar life cycles and are members of the same family. Are they too difficult? I can't imagine them being any more difficult that brine shrimp, maybe even easier since they're fresh water.

Any ideas?


----------



## ed seeley

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

I don't think Fairy Shrimp eggs could be harvested and sold in the same way as Brine shrimp. Their big commercial advantage is the way they live in almost monocultures in the wild over pretty big areas. This makes harvesting the eggs dead easy.

Fairy shrimp you would have to breed yourself, I think. If you can get hold of them and produce them in large enough numbers they would be a great food as they wouldn't die in your fry tanks - would be great for feeding picky fish fry like some of my killis. Let me know if you do source some!

I also read a great article about hatching brine shrimp in freshwater. Apparently if the water is very hard by adding lots of Baking soda, then they will hatch in that. They then survive longer in fry tanks. I haven't tried it yet, but will over Easter.


----------



## schaadrak

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

So brine shrimp eggs are harvested in the wild. For some reason I was thinking they were bred in hatcheries. I just gained one stupid point. :doh:


----------



## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Update:

My Endlers are doing very well. I believe the numbers are 4 female and 3 male.

AND BOY THOSE MALE ENDLERS ARE HORNEY!!!!!

I can safely say that they are all healthy and active! 
My only question is how much longer before the females give birth?

Do I need to feed them more frequently? 
At the moment I am only able to feed them once a day when I get home.

I am hoping that there are enough hiding spots for the fry and the females. If not, I have used aquarium glue and constructed a cave out of Barbeque Lava Rocks that I may put into this tank if I absolutely have to.

When my son Liam saw my photos on this thread he said that I definitely needed an update. Unfortunately when he went to take photos the cover on the lens of the digital camera would not open. When he and Mom get the digital camera working again, I will have Liam take all the photos he wants and post them. The plants are doing very well.

I just can't wait to see some Endler Fry. 
I know what everyone says about Endlers multiplying but I am still waiting.

Oh yeah, I have also reduced the amount the light is on during the daytime to reduce the one spot of hair algae that has grown. That is slowly shrinking again.

So John N., how long until Endler Fry once the males and females are chasing each other like crazy?


----------



## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Satirica - personal goal achieved! I found a staff person a month or two ago that was able to figure out what dolomite was and where in the store to find it. Of course, it was not the right season for it then; but it should be now! 
(I don't really need this stuff. I just read about it all over the place and was trying to figure out what everyone was talking about.)

Now.

Stupid question time.

My Male and Female Enders are EXTREMELY active and healthy. The males chase the females whenever the lights are on. The females are large enough that I am surprised that they have NOT given birth to fry yet.

M-F I leave for work before 8am and get home roughly around 6pm. I usually do not really have time for my tanks until my house dies down and gets quiet late at night.

If I fed my Endlers a little before work and a little after work, would that promote baby Endler Fry?

With all I have heard about Endlers, I am wondering if maybe they are having babies but are eating them before I am getting to feed them their next meal.

I know there is no lack of food (but maybe not frequent enough) because my Ramshorn snails are looking large and beautiful! (The benefits of an El Naturale tank).

Suggestions are encouraged and welcome.

I want some Endler fry NOW! (So I can start populating my other tanks soon.)

Thank you in advance for your encouragement and feedback.

Jimbo


----------



## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

[smilie=k: Yea!!! arty:

I am now the proud Papa of my first batch of Endler Fry!

My El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank is the last one of the night that I get to feed because it is in the basement. I think in the future this may have an advantage over other locations in the house because of its more steady temperature. But that is yet to be determined.

Well, I was feeding my Endlers and I am trying very hard not to overfeed them while trying to 'rotate' my fish foods for 'variety'. This is not easy to do, as can be seen by the BEAUTIFUL LARGE Ramshorn Snails that I have in this tank. My shrimp love me too. My shrimp know that I want them to multiply them also and eventually spread them to other tanks.

Well, I had just finished putting 'part' of a cube of tubifex worms in the tank, crushed to promote making it easier and quicker for the Endlers to eat. And then I added just a 'small' amount of freeze dried Bloodworms (mosquito larvae???) to the tank.

When way in the back of the tank, near the top, nearby the surface; what do I see - BUT LITTLE TINY SPECKS MOVING. I had to blink. Twice. Then I saw them. Oh my gosh! I have been waiting for these little beauties for what feels like eternity. I have no clue which female it was. And I am just hoping that maybe another female will have more.

This is great. I immediately started a new batch of Brine Shrimp Eggs to have hatched and ready by tomorrow night. (After of course grinding more tubifex worm cubes up tiny and freezed dried Bloodworms (much easier to grind up). I don't want my adult Endlers to gobble up the baby fry you know....)

I figure Hatching Brine Shrimp should be perfect for the newborn fry, while at the same time being the perfect 'diet' for the adult Endlers and Shrimp and Snails. Feedback.

Next question for the El Naturale community. - Should I do a water change? I am so afraid of changing anything out of fear that it will disrupt whatever 'balance' exists in the tank. But of course, that is what others say I should do.

I really need feedback. Should I do a partial water change (10%) and maybe trim some of the plants that are blocking light and replant those that have gotten uprooted? Or should I wait until THIS BATCH grows up? (I so wish I had an appropriate camera to capture this all.... but it is all so small..)


----------



## onemyndseye

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Congratz Jimbo  ...

I was going to add that if you are having trouble getting them to spawn try raising the tank temp alittle.... at tropical temps they should breed like rabbits 

I wouldnt change anything for alittle while personally.... They spawned and gave birth in your tank - so you must be doing something right  They have now claimed it as home 

Wait a week or two and then maybe change the water over several days say 5% or less at a time.

You want the conditions to be as stable as possible until the little guys gain some strength....besides they are sooooo tiny that it would be very easy to siphon them out 

Take care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Justin, thank you.

Yeah, that's what I have been thinking the whole time. I was just afraid to mess with anything. Now just so I clarify things in my own mind, snails basically convert excess fish food to something more easily used by the plants, yes? (I am tired right now, memory kind of working.....)

I also just received a very nice shipment from Dodgefreak8 whose name is also Justin. They started to move as soon as they warmed up with some of the 78 degree aquarium water and I put some fish food right by them. Then they started to move!

Which reminds me. While I am at work, I need to purchase some more SFBB Brine Shrimp Eggs to hatch. I know some people say that Great Salt Lake Brine Shrimp works better, but I have finally learned how to hatch brine shrimp from the store. (The secret is in getting fresh eggs that have not been sitting in the basement for too long.....)

So for now I will purchase what my store has. I am thinking that the artemii (brine shrimp hatched creatures) are just the right size for the fry and possibly the perfect diet food for the adult fish, snails and shrimp. Right now, they (especially the snails) are getting fat, dumb and happy! Just so hard to resist feeding them. You know?


----------



## onemyndseye

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Yes... your fry will very much enjoy the brine. I used to have a ball watching the little guys gobble them up  (Dont have any spawning tanks right now as I'm too wrapped up with work these days). You can feed them a diet of strictly brine until they're big enough to take other foods though providing a varied diet it much better......just hard to do with fry that size 

Snails basicaly break the food up into tiny particles that can be easily processed by different bacteria and bio-cycles in the tank

-Justin
One Mynds Eye

(Whats funny about Dodgefreak8 is I used to LOVE Dodge hotrods.... like the old Chargers - So I guess you could say I'm a bit of a Dodge Freak myself )


----------



## newbie314

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

I saw fresh water fairy shrimp on E-bay. Wonder if they would be easier to hatch and feed? No rinsing needed?
Maybe one could put the eggs directly into the tank.


----------



## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

newbie314, what are water fairy shrimp?



> Snails basicaly break the food up into tiny particles that can be easily processed by different bacteria and bio-cycles in the tank


Justin, does that cause a smell in the water? I ask because I finally did a partial water change being very careful not to siphon up any shrimp or fry or fish. I may do that on a more regular basis now. I have held off for so long.

I just want to make sure my water does go too badly in either direction (too bio-organic smelly or too large a water change).

I have tried the variety thing with feeding my fish in my tanks. Quite frankly I think fish are just too plain stupid. They seem to only get used to one type of food. Whenever I switch foods (except hatched Brine Shrimp) they seem to have no clue that they are looking food right in the face.

Have you ever had that happen?


----------



## onemyndseye

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

".... Have you ever had that happen?...."

Sure.... but it usually doesnt take more than a day or two for them to start gobbling the new food down . You may try starting new foods in percentages.

I.e. --> Feed 90% Reg food and 10% New food... the next day do 70%/30%... etc

(LOL ...sort of like feeding horses a new food  )

"....Justin, does that cause a smell in the water?...."

Not generally. a Completely healthy and aged in tank should smell fresh with maybe a hint of earthy-ness.. Like a freshwater lake or stream.

What kind of smell are we talking? Kind of ... well sewage type smell? Rotten egg? ... Im guessing its the firNormast one and is probably caused by organics building up alittle faster than your "ecosystem" can handle... do a partial waterchange and add a airstone for afew days and see if it goes away.

..... everyone is healthy and active ?

I used to have this problem in my 2.5gal fry tank that didnt have water movement... I would feed about every 2 days and the day after a feeding the water would begin to smell (sort of sewage like)... I think this is the beginning of a anaerobic crash but its usually easily fixed by adding a airstone for a day or so.

This is probably more apt to happen in tanks with active fry since you tend to feed lots of very rich foods to the little guys and water movement is sometimes low because you dont want to suck your fry into a filter..... Or tanks with fish that need a rich diet

About your brine ... have your tried the Ebay store I linked to ya? I have had great luck with their 1pound bags of brine eggs.

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye

Join Date: May 2006 ===>> Happy 1 year to me!  LOL


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## joycould

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Fairy shrimp are very similar to bring shrimp except they are fresh water. There are several different types of fairy shrimp, one is very much like brine shrimp in size.


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## schaadrak

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Technically brine shrimp are a kind of fairy shrimp. I'm currently trying to find some local cultures so that I can maybe raise my own if its not too difficult. We haven't had a good strong rain here in about 8 months, so any pools or ditches where I might be able to find some are still dry.


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## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

I just received my shipment from Brine Shrimp Direct. Looked like great stuff. They even included a free package of some kind of other fish food.

Spirulina something. Sinking pellets. I was not expecting that. I will post more information on it later. Very nice of them.

I am having success with hatching brine shrimp with SFBB and want to try GSL.

Now I am relearning how having a sponge filter on top of my intank valves may be very, very helpful with my tanks and filters.

I like it when the fish can still eat the food if there is any extra on the sponge filter.

I don't want to put the brine shrimp artemii just to have it sucked up into the filter. Or the fry. You know?


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## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Well, this tank is exploding with life and I love it. 
The Malaysian Trumpet Snails are finally visible from time to time and I purposely try to feed sinking tablets to feed them. And my Endlers are enjoying my daily hatching of Artemia Nauplii (Brine Shrimp endstars).

I have 2 or 3 adult females and 4 adult males. 
I am trying to figure out why all 82 (slight exaggeration) Endler Fry look like females? 
Temperature? Water Hardness?

I know I have read before that something like this can determine livebearer's sex while developing.

Anyone know? I would like to have more males so I could start to separate them. 
(I don't want some tanks to have fish multiplying.)

Thank you in advance for anyone and everyone's help with this question.

Jimbo205


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## onemyndseye

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

"....I am trying to figure out why all 82 (slight exaggeration) Endler Fry look like females?...."

It will take the males awhile to color up 

Take Care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


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## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Justin, great to hear from you!

I really STINK at being patient. I am very about to double the batch that I make of Artemia Nauplii to feed the fry. I want so badly to just bring one or two of the Male Endlers that have already colored up to the office to put in my new Office Nanos. I have the lights all set up and when I have time I want to separate the Coffefolia Anubias and the Hemianthus Micranthemoides. The light fixtures are so cool!

I am so hoping that a light fixture and bowl all for HM alone will finally bring this 'sculpting' plant to where I want it to be.

How long do I have to wait?

They all look fat and silver with that dark gravid spot on the back.


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## Homer_Simpson

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*

Jimbo205 I greatly appauld you for taking that "leap of faith" in setting up your El Naturale 10 gallon. Your tank looks great.

Although I know that people have successfully set up such tanks on a small scale, I am having difficulty taking that "leap of faith." I am just struggling with the idea that you can replicate a balanced eco system using dirt in the substrate, doing very minimal water changes, and not using any filters. In nature in small streams and habitats where such aquarium inhabitants thrive, there are often a myriad of microorganisms that help to keep the water balanced, there is often a daily or at least weekly infusion of fresh water as old water and wastes are carried away or consumed by micro-organisms that would not necessarily be present in a home aquarium, there are natural predators that help to keep the populations of ihabitants such as snails in check thereby naturally balancing the bio-load. Nature seems to have its own checks and balances that are triggered and kick in to restore a healthy balance when an imbalance is detected and before things go from bad to worse.

This is no way in knock on the El Naturale method. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for those that can make something like this work without any problems. I am not as confident that I can replicate their results.

Best Regards.


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## Jimbo205

*Re: Jimo205's - El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank*



> Where is the challenge and satisfaction in growing aquarium plants that are healthy to begin with vs reviving sick aquarium plants? Behold the link below and see sick plants undegoing a revival and transformation. It's not always all about aquascaping. Think about it, adopt a sick aquairum plant, and take on a real challenge.


 Oh yes, you are so right. Take a look at my earliest photos on my 27 Gallon 1/2 Hex. My first posts were with Rohape.

My original Java Fern stuggled to live for years. Now what a difference!

As to taking the leap of faith, I will let Bpimm and OneMindsEye tell you what they told me. What they offered to me made all the difference.

And if you are scientifically minded and even if you are not (you will just need to reread the book as often or more often than I have), I highly recommend Diana Walstad's book - Ecology of the Planted Aquarium on Amazon.com for a reasonable price - THE HARDCOPY (not eBook) which makes it easier to write notes in. Or you might be able to have your local or college library get it for you.

Let me know it works out for you.

Life cannot ALWAYS be planned, sometimes it just happens. Either way enjoy the ride.

Jimbo205


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## Jimbo205

Well, I have a fair amount of Endler Fry now with some fry even starting to show their colors. I am just about ready to give ALL OF MY TANKS a well deserved 'haircut' and trim all my aquatic plants. I have been putting it off for the right time. (When I am ready to get wet and spread ALL OF THE TRIMMINGS out on the Dining Room Table WITH a plastic cover so I can SHIP THEM ALL to a very nice friend willing to give them to a good home. Thank you friend.)

My boss even asked today about my New 'Nano' Betta Bowl and my new 'PICO' Betta (Vase) Bowl in my brand new office. I have been in there for almost 4 weeks now and have the Galaxy and Palm Light fixtures all set and Bowls all in position. I just have not had the time to get wet and make a temporary mess while I make a switch. It was kind of neat. She even asked me where my fish was. Euro the Betta passed away about 5 months ago. I have been waiting to set these nice 'tanks' up and bring in 4 male Endlers into work and put 2 in each. 

It is a matter of timing. I need to be all caught up with work (ever?) and pick a time when there are a ton of co-workers around. It was cool to know that my boss was admiring the 'work' in progress. 

I hope in about a month to have a new digital camera so I can post some photos. 

In the meantime I am very glad that I was able to pick up a LARGE and small Styrofoam box (each) from the Vets office on my way home from work. I will need to see just how full the boxes might be after 'trimming' all of my tanks. 

I am kind of excited to see how well this El Naturale Tank has matured. It will be fun to eventually focus on the plants again and not on the fish, although focusing on raising Endler Fry was extremely fun. (Thank you John N.). 

Once I get that camera I will need some SERIOUS help from my friends on what the heck to do with the plants I have in my tanks. I am finally ready to dig out the scissors and cut and give the extras away!


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## Jimbo205

Kristal, that package I sent you with a HUGE amount of plant was ELODEA CANANDENSIS. (Urkevitz just let me know.)

He says it grows fast in a non CO2 tank. 

Enjoy. 

Let me know how it goes. 

If I learn how to ship Endlers, I can send you some babies. 

I would need those special plastic bags and some type of green additive to help them with the journey, correct? 

Jimbo205


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## SKSuser

I'm really looking forward to you getting your camera!!! 

ps I think on the for sale section there is a sticky about shipping fish. Its a long read with many opinions. However, you've got enough endlers to probably try all the techniques. Personally, I would avoid adding malachite green or any other chemicals, but thats just how I roll.


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## Jimbo205

Check out my first photos using my Fuji Film S700 on my Betta Bowl at the Office link. 

El Naturale just goes at a completely different pace. My focus has been completely on my Endlers and not the plants. 

But the ELODEA CANANDENSIS took over and that is my fault because I did not want to mess with anything in the tank while my Endlers were 'learning' how to breed. 

Teenagers you know. :tongue1: :whoo: :high5: \\/ :heart: :dance: :bounce:  :wink:


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## Jimbo205

I feel so badly for not haven taken more photos of this tank. It has been crowded but very much full of life. 
I have very much enjoyed hatching Artemia Nauplii and feeding the Endlers, Shrimp, Malaysian Trumpet Snails and Ramshorn Snails. 

Two days ago I fished out a whole bunch of Endlers to give to my daughters and sons friends' parents for their tank. I got it all done, but me being on such a night schedule when I got to their house around the block all the lights were out. I figured no big deal. I put the fish back in the tank and would do it again another day. 

I made sure my daughter took a bunch (WHOLE BUNCH) of the aquatic plants that I had cut and trimmed so that I could catch some of the fish. 

I got the call tonight at work from my oldest son. My youngest daughter had looked at the fish and tapped on the glass. According to my oldest son - all of my fish in this tank are dead. And there is a bunch of white stuff on the bottom half of the tank. 

I am hoping for the best (one or two of shrimp and fish still alive) and asked my son to put a whole capful of Prime into the tank until I can get home to see what I can do. 

I guess even the best of tanks can crash at any time. Maybe. 

Time for home. I am crossing my fingers.


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## Jimbo205

*This hurts.*

This hurts.

My second boy had a friend over. A boy we have known since he was a baby. 
Well, after seeing my tanks in my basement he decided he wanted to see what it would be like to 'annihilate' my endlers. They found an old container of Seachem Neutral Regulator and put what was in the container into the tank. The container was half filled. I figure from the directions that was enough to neutralize the pH on my entire pool in the backyard. Maybe not, but close.

Of course my endlers would have thought the powder was food, because that was the only thing I ever put in the tank.

Everything dead as a doornail. Half my plants were actually bleached white.

My youngest daughter noticed it first. Who screamed and told my oldest son. He had been at a friend's house all day long while my 2nd boy and boy X were 'playing'. My oldest son called me at work last night to let me know. He did not want to tell me the details over the phone nor get in trouble with his brother and his 'friend' for telling.

It is interesting as a Dad, listening to 6 children telling you about their day at home (one at a time individually - with none of the others in the room) while you already know what happened. I was patient.

To me it was more about telling the truth than fish. Although the amount of beautiful life that was in that tank was precious to me. Just pure pleasure to watch.

Unfortunately, my 2nd boy and his friend did not have the courage to tell me the truth. Even when I told them that it would be easy for me to forgive if the truth was told. After all, compared to a child - they are still just fish.

But they didn't. They didn't tell me the truth. What killed me the most was that neither seemed to be sorry for what they had done. I knew my kids would not have done that or 'accidentally' fed the fish the wrong thing. All my kids know EXACTLY what I feed my fish and how. The lies sucked.

I kept my cool. I gave myself time to think it over. What the appropriate punishment would be. As a Dad, I really did NOT want to lose my temper.

So, as a Dad and an adult I would love to find out from friends; what would you choose as an appropriate punishment?

I know what I already picked out, but I want to know from you.

What would you choose as a punishment?

Thanks for your help and for reading this.

Jimbo205


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## fredyk

Disclaimer: i don't have kids. I would not punish them. I was just thinking about my cousin, blowing pepper in his eyes. and trying to wash it out, not telling our parents, because i'd get in trouble. he must have had no respect for me, but at least i didn't get in trouble. 

when you train a dog, let's say, you come home and the dog has 'done' something, you can't yell and fuss at the dog. why? he does not understand. the punishment fits the crime for adults, but how do you learn the kids, right and wrong!? : (

that's probably the lesson here. give the kid responsibility for feeding the fish, you'll supervise of course, and he'll respect the animals a bit. make him your understudy, as you change water, feed, trim etc.

this is a conundrim. like being judge judy. : (


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## fredyk

Note: it's not a punishment. he's been un-supervised and now he's going to get more supervision. he gets more responsibility. if the other kids were doing this fish understudy thing, they get bumped up in rank, and they get more responsibility. 

somebody once told me that people like to be supervised. the kid may not like it, but actually he will like it. : )


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## Homer_Simpson

I am not excusing the child's behaviour, but sometimes children don't know better and ignorance gets the best of them. I think as children we have all done things out of ignorance and later discovered that our actions had grave consequences. If you sit the child down and explain to him how hurtful this was to you and how taking a fishes' life is no different than taking human life. And if the life is taken knowingly than it is akin to murder. Ask the child, how would you feel if someone threw something toxic in your home and you died a slow suffering death. Sometimes when children are made to see the severity and hurtfulness of their actions, I think that initself is punishment enough and they are less likely to repeat those actions.

Just my 2 cents.


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## EahInMass

I say make him redo the whole tank Jimbo! I would make him do chores around the house to earn money toward replacement of the supplies that were already invested in the tank. Have him clean, do water changes, plant, buy new fish, etc. Make him learn the value of a dollar by showing him that not only was that tank a passion of yours, you invested money into it as well as your time.


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## joycould

I know what I would do let the tank set for a couple more days until it is good and ripe then tell him you figured out what happened and he has to clean it up and set it back up for you for not telling you himself. Hopefully everytime he sees the tank he will remember why he was punished and it will help him make the right choices in the future. I could write a book on things my son told me to keep himself out of real trouble with me.


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## Jimbo205

Well, my 2nd boy and I went to Dunkin Donuts to get him a donut and something to drink. We had some time together and then we went to the Barber Shop. My oldest boy has a short haircut, but my 2nd boy has not had a haircut (short haircut) for quite some time. Age 10 and it was shoulder length hair. 

I figured it took about 8-18 months for me to develop this bursting with life tank, I figured having about 8-18 months worth of hair trimmed off of his head. 

The closest place that was open on a Sunday was not actually a barber shop but a hair salon. The lady was very nice. She actually cut my son's hair in 3 phases or cuts. She did not want to traumatize him. I did not either. But in the end, she had cut off of his head about 12 months worth of hair. He looks great too. Before the final and 3rd cut for him, Dad got a haircut too. 

I can see his face and he actually seemed happy with his haircut when he was done. Hearing my wife's loud tone on the phone when I got to work later was expected. She may not have liked the hair cut, but I still think he looks great. 

As for his friend that used the phrase, "Let's annihilate them" well I learned from his old babysitter some things that have happened over the last 5 years that she had never told me before, but under the circumstances thought it was appropriate that I now know. First of all I learned, to take even a friend's child out for a well deserved haircut could actually result in some serious charges. Who would imagine over a haircut. Well, you learn. Secondly, I learned just how serious the situation is. 

I have known the boy and his mother since he was a baby. Both the boy and his father who is separated from the mother take some serious behavior medication to control behaviour and state of mind. I also know that the mother has never taken responsibility for anything her son has ever done. At the strong recommendation of the babysitter that filled me in on past serious behavior issues, I am going to call the County Social Services Child Welfare Department. I am a little nervous about doing so, but after talking with the boy and his complete lack of remorse or any reaction at all. I was concerned. I asked what would happen if he gave straight bleach to his family cat and it died. He said, "Nothing. My Mom would just get another cat." NO Expression on his face at all. 

Anyway, the babysitter actually wanted me to call the police and make a report. I just can't look a cop straight in the face while he asks me, "So, the kid killed your fish??" I can however explain to a professional what my family and I observed and the child's state of mind. I am told that half of his time is spent at his father's house which I am told is NOT a safe place to be. Just inklings of what she told me made my hair stand on end. 

I am going to give myself from serious space from this issue and just report what I observed, heard and saw and let the professionals investigate. I realize that this child needs some serious help and his mother will never get the help that the child needs on her own. 

I am very hesistant because of the seriousness of the issue and the fact that mother and children are past friends of the family. But even my wife who still does not want to talk about it with me because she is so stressed, will never allow the boy back into the house with my kids. 

So thank you for the feedback.

My son got a serious haircut. And his friend hopefully will get the help he truly needs. 

Thank goodness for my Endler Bowl at the Office, I need some happy fish to look at right now. 

Oh, and 80% of the plants in the injured tank turned SHOCK WHITE.


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## schaadrak

You are a much more level-headed man than me, Jimbo. I'd have funneled the entire contents of the tank into his stomach and thrown the kid out of my house by the back of his neck.


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## joycould

I think your son should thank you for getting off so easy. My son would have never gotten off that easy!! If my son ever was handed out a punishment like that I would have screamed where are my dog clippers at. Yes I know I am evil mom!


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## Jimbo205

Thank you for the feedback. I really did need that. 

I have been told that I have quite a temper (I am just loud when upset) and sometimes I think the world just notices more when men get upset. It just seems that way. If my wife gets upset, that is one thing. If I (Dad) get upset, it's another. I really worked very, very hard to behave like a man should behave with children. Maybe I should have made his mother pick him up at 3 am. But the end result when I finally make the call will be much more... earned?

My wife called and asked me if I had made the call yet. That got my attention considering she STILL would not talk to me about the topic last night nor beforehand. 

I appreciate the feedback. Sometimes a Dad needs feedback from other adults to make sure the 'discipline' or reaction is appropriate. Thanks.


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## flagg

Hey Jimbo: I'm really sorry to hear about your fish. That totally sucks. I agree with the comment about making your son do work around the house to pay for the fish and plants. As a teacher we learn that in the classroom, the most appropriate punishment for a child is something that fits the crime. For example, when I catch a student writing graffiti on a desk, the student must come in after school and clean ALL the desks in the classroom. Making your son repay you for the fish and plants fits the "crime". 

Also, as a teacher, I have to say be very careful about calling child protection services as it is a VERY serious matter and one that is not taken lightly by the state. If the babysitter has witnessed abusive behavior on the part of the mother towards the child, then it's the babysitter who should make the call, not you as you did not witness the behavior. Granted, I don't know what she told you, of course, nor am I saying you shouldn't, just to be careful. If the mother is abusing the child, then the call should def. be made but only if you're sure about the situation.

Someone else mentioned Judge Judy. You could sue the child's mother to repay you for the cost of the fish and plants and try to get on Judge Judy. She'll set the kid straight!

-ricardo


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## Jimbo205

flagg, thank you for your feedback. I completely agree with your comments. I took 5 days before doing what I had to do, but I did it. I have known the 11 year since he was a baby and his parents. Both father and son take some pretty heavy psych meds for their behavior. I had thought it was just for ADHD. I knew that the child could be 'active' but never realized that he could be destructive. I know my limits. The professionals will do their investigation and I just hope the best for them all. 

My wife and friends say that I should write up an itemized bill and present the mother with it. I just don't currently have the emotional energy for that. I had looked at the tank and thought that the plants that Dataguru had given me were going to be the the only plants to make it. I changed the water many times and left the lights on their timers hoping for the best. I was wrong. I checked Friday or Saturday and there were a few green leaves floating on the top but I found out that all the roots were decimated. I have 1 ramshorn snail and 1 Malaysian Trumpet Snail that survived. I'm done. Lights off. I will drain the water and empty the contents sometime in the next week. 

Friday night we had a family & friends barbeque and I got feedback from all regarding my situation. I guess in a way, it wasn't really just me making the report. From the feedback I received, I was just the one to make the call. I only gave them (CPS) information I observed myself and knew. If CPS needs more information from our social circle, others in our group can provide it. 

I will only type up an itemized bill and present it to both parents if I absolutely think I have to. 

I kept on waiting for the perfect time to spread my Endlers to my other tanks. I am so glad that I have in my 2.5 Gallon in my son's room: 2 Males 1 female and 2 baby fry. 

Maybe in my next one I will do it bare bottom with just a sponge filter and some Java Fern for breeding another batch. Endlers are so cool.

flagg, when do you and the kids start school where you live? Mine start the week of Sept 6th. Are you ready?


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## flagg

Jimbo205 said:


> flagg, when do you and the kids start school where you live? Mine start the week of Sept 6th. Are you ready?


Hey Jimbo: Well, I hope the kid gets whatever help he needs and I commend you for doing the right thing.

I too live in NY so we also begin on the 6th. No, I'm not ready, I have to start lesson planning today, actually. Luckily for me I'm going on the Senior Trip down to Busch Gardens in VA so I work on Thurs and leave Fri morning for the weekend.... great fun!

-ricardo


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## dawntwister

Jimbo205 said:


> Okay, I have it set up. 1 1/2 inches soil (Schultz's Cactus Soil) - only took one bag - and I had purchased like 4-5!
> I used string around the tank like someone else had posted a photo of (good idea). I then put 1 1/2 inches of SoilMaster Select on top again using the string idea to keep it consistent (again good idea). I have a heater that automatically keeps the water at 78 degrees Farenheit (I wrote a review on it in the reviews section). And I purchased a Fluval One (I like that!).
> 
> Well, I trimmed my original 10 Gallon Tank which had 5 inches of Gravel and Seachem Onyx subratrate and now it has 2 1/2. The rest I have in a bag. I had enough plants in that tank to fill five 10 Gallon Tanks.
> 
> I moved my Dwarf Sagittaria into my new El Naturale 10 Gallon Tank. It has 20 Watts CF over it on a timer for 12 hours a day. I put my Java Fern which I have been nursing along for the last 6-8 weeks which now has many, many baby leaves popping out into this tank and I remembered to tie it to a small Lava Rock so the Fluval One does not blow it around the tank.
> 
> Now I will wait and see.
> 
> I saw one or two snails in the tank today (good thing) and added some fish flakes to feed them. Now I will wait and see. I would like to see a nice carpet of this plant in the tank and grow at whatever is a normal natural pace.
> 
> Onemindseye and DataGuru, I will need your coaching on this new El Naturale Tank. Anything I need to know? My water has good KH and high GH. I don't need to add calcium carbonate sand to this do I?
> 
> Let me know what is next.
> 
> I saw the coolest BRIGHT ORANGE guppies in PetsMart. Not just on the tail. Solid Orange. Wonderful color.
> 
> Actually, I will need to research again the smallest fish I can put in a tank. Malasian Trumpet Snails? Shrimp?
> 
> Hmmm... What's the next step?


I did you get your java fern to grow. Mine are not growing.


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## Jimbo205

Well, for any aquarist a tank never really dies. 

This tank is now my Shrimp Tank Farm with two nice bunches of Java Moss and Hemianthus Micranthemoides growing. 

No soil. No substrate. 

Not much to look at but nice to see how many shrimp I have going and keep some stock plants for other tanks. 

The nice part in this tank is that my bunches of plants have not grown together like in my other. 

I am hoping someday to learn how to have a nice shrimp / Endler Display tank again. 

(That's way down the road I think.)


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