# ARRRGGGGGGGGH! Forgot dolomite!!!



## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

I can't believe I've spaced this. I set up my tank this morning, laid in everything, river, plants, etc......

And forgot to add in dolomite, or any buffering material. There is an aquarium rock, but I don't know it's makeup. Please tell me, Diana, that with dKH=7.50, dGH=7, we're likely going to be OK. I do not relish the idea of breaking this down again and starting over.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You could just freeze some dolomite and slide it into the substrate.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Zapins said:


> You could just freeze some dolomite and slide it into the substrate.


I've got dolomite, in coarse gravel size, about the size of standard aquarium gravel. Not familiar with the freezing thing - buy some powder, add water, make a thinnish "sheet" and slide in in places?

The tank, about an hour in:


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

PaulNorth said:


> dolomite, add water, make a thinnish "sheet" and slide in in places?


Sounds like a plan


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, I think I'll let thing settle for a couple days. I've got this crushed dolomite, and perhaps I can use this, as well, gently push it into the soil in various places? Not too hopeful I can accomplish the "sheet slide" without screwing the entire tank up.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You could mix the dolomite with water and put it in ice-cube trays, then freeze them. Cubes would be much easier than sheets to insert into the gravel.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

freezing the material and inserting it into the substrate is a really cool idea  I had not heard of it, and it could be useful for other stuff too.

Here is another idea: get yourself some dolomitic lime. It comes in several grades, from fine to coarse. Small amounts can be added to the water. The coarser stuff will settle and should not be too noticeable. Over time, it will build up in your substrate.

On the other hand, maybe it is a good thing that you didnt add it to the substrate. Unless you are growing SriLankia Crypts, i am not sure that the calcareous material has to be in the substrate. There are advantages to having a more acidic substrate.
--Neil


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

freezing the material and inserting it into the substrate is a really cool idea  Serously though, it is a fine idea ....I had not heard of it, and it could be useful for other stuff too.

Here is another idea: get yourself some dolomitic lime. It comes in several grades, from fine to coarse. Small amounts can be added to the water. The coarser stuff will settle and should not be too noticeable. Over time, it will build up in your substrate.

On the other hand, maybe it is a good thing that you didnt add it to the substrate. Unless you are growing SriLankia Crypts, i am not sure that the calcareous material has to be in the substrate. There are advantages to having a more acidic substrate.

Oops, somehow i entered this twice. I also did not notice it was in the "El natural" Forum, and without CO2 the suspension of fine dolomitic lime i mentioned may take more than a day to dissolve.
--Neil


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

PaulNorth said:


> I can't believe I've spaced this. I set up my tank this morning, laid in everything, river, plants, etc......
> 
> And forgot to add in dolomite, or any buffering material. There is an aquarium rock, but I don't know it's makeup. Please tell me, Diana, that with dKH=7.50, dGH=7, we're likely going to be OK. I do not relish the idea of breaking this down again and starting over.


Dear Paul,

Please, no need to tear tank down this promising tank or waste time freezing cubes, etc.

With a GH of 7, your water probably has _plenty_ of calcium. I would only be concerned if your water was "Very Soft" (GH = 0-4). See my book, page 185.

Your tank looks like it is set up nicely (plenty of nice looking plants, etc). Water is a little cloudy, so a water change within the next week or two wouldn't hurt.

Relax and wait to see your ecosystem develop. Good luck!


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Dear Paul,
> 
> Please, no need to tear tank down this promising tank or waste time freezing cubes, etc.
> 
> ...


Diana, you don't know how much this has made my day. Interesting, too, you mention "relax." I enjoy my 20H, which is a hi-tech tank, really healthy, if accelerated growth, etc. - and watching this little environment, and that I can watch it just evolve its own ecosystem - well, both are really nice, both have their particular enjoyment, at least to me, but I'm really looking forward to just watching nature take its course with this 10. Many thanks for everything.

Paul


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Just an update:

1 hour in:










And about 12 hours in:










HOB, charcoal, with one purigen 8oz (regenerated x1) packet in back. I love Purigen.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

That cleared up fast! Which moss are you using on the stone?

-Dave


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Paul,

You're very welcome! 

I'm really impressed with how fast the water clarified. Not bad.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

davemonkey said:


> That cleared up fast! Which moss are you using on the stone?
> 
> -Dave


That's Xmas moss, Dave - there's more on the back, but I hope the whole thing is overrun with moss, anyway - never really been a fan of the stone, looked a little contrived, to me. Unfortunately, I probably started this project a month early - heading up to the U.P. of Michigan next month, where Lake Superior yields up tons of beautiful, natural stones and driftwood. I do hope to lay in a piece of driftwood as an arch, or two light branchwork pieces in a near-arch, laid with flame moss, which is growing in my 20H.



dwalstad said:


> Paul,
> 
> You're very welcome!
> 
> I'm really impressed with how fast the water clarified. Not bad.


I'm very impressed by Purigen as a product. One of the few things I've found that isn't a hole in the aquarium to continually throw money into, as it's been regenerated already, as has the one in my 20H.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Just an update, and a question on the plants. The update is that everything in terms of parameters seem to be good - no ammonia or nitrite, 10PPM nitrate. Water is very clear, fish happy. 

However, many of the plants seem to be suffering. I expected some loss/shock, as these plants all came from a hi-tech, hi-light, EI tank. Surprising to me is that the crypts, so far, seem to have taken well to the move (or not so surprising, perhaps, because they are such root feeders?). Others, not so well - some hygrophila difformis, leaves blanching a bit, sunset hygro, leaves turning translucent, thin; needle leaf java fern, not doing well at all, blackening from the leaf tips in, hygro corymbosa (small stem/compact), showing sign of deficiency (yellowing edges, in); anubia barteri 'nana' also showing some mild sign of deficiency, faint yellowing here and there.

I truly want to do everything I can to let things be - feed liberally, let the fish waste do its job, etc. - but wondering if any thoughts can be provided on whether this is always an "adjustment thing" with an NPT, or these plants are simply unsuited, because of their high-tech conditioning? 

(I may also be pushing some of the ability of some of the plants to hang, I realize, with only a 15W cool white over the 10 - but I partly wanted to see what can be accomplished with the lowest possible light to sustain them, to see what other variables, chiefly the naturally produced nutrients, can accomplish. But I may have simply chosen wrongly, on the plants....all thoughts appreciated).


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I think the problem is too little light. 15w of fluorescent light is very low light especially if it isn't getting sunlight. I'd increase the light. Maybe put a 65w PC spiral bulb above the tank if you have it lying around.

Yellowing is probably from low light levels.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Zapins said:


> I think the problem is too little light. 15w of fluorescent light is very low light especially if it isn't getting sunlight. I'd increase the light. Maybe put a 65w PC spiral bulb above the tank if you have it lying around.
> 
> Yellowing is probably from low light levels.


Zapins, a 65W PC spiral bulb? Sorry, not familiar enough yet with lighting options - I presume this is this somehow a lower intensity than a standard 65W? I ask, because isn't that a tremendous amount of light over a 10, without CO2/Excel/Ferts?

Edit: Sorry, I spaced - thought you were talking about just a spiral socket, and not a spiral bulb. So, 65W is low enough, because of all the restrike by the bends in the tube? Just some cursory digging, but any suggestions on where to find these, in appropriate colors? I've seen some here, for instance, but they are only in 2700K - nothing approaching full spectrum, except in prices approaching the cost of a low-end fixture (here, for instance). Any thoughts?

Any thoughts on the Coralife T5 2 x 14W, 24" strip light? Too high (although I know 2.8 over a 10 isn't what it would be over a larger tank)? At $34, attractive price, and it's a twin bulb of 6700/full spectrum. Also, cool running temp.

Seems in range....what do you think?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

A 65w spiral bulb looks like this:










It isn't a lot of light because these kinds of bulbs have a lot of restrike value (in other words, the light hits into the bulb itself because of the spirals and is lost). Ultimately the 65w is not all going into the tank. It might even be too dim for the tank, but a heck of a lot better than 15w.

The Coralife T5 fixture you mentioned would also be good, but it will put a lot more light into the tank than the 65w bulb since the configuration is far better and there are reflectors that angle most of the bulb's light into the tank.

With smaller tanks and very large tanks the watt/gallon rule breaks down. A 1 gallon tank won't grow plants with 1 watt of light, there simply isn't enough intensity there. So a 55 or 65w bar light bulb over a 10 gallon tank is probably medium light, the spiral bulb I recommended would fall in the Low - medium category.

The choice is yours, I'd go with the coralife (I didn't know they made them that cheap) rather than the 65w spiral, because you will get a better looking and more even light spread with the coralife.

Check the lumen rating of bulbs when buying them for plants. Lumens are a measure of intensity so the more lumens the bulb throws out the more plants can grow.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Restrike, I figured. I weighed things, and ended up finding a terrarium hood at a tremendous clearance price ($14), three bulb possibilities, 2 incandescent sockets, one 18" T5 socket. I've sunk 2 x 27 watt spiral CFL into the incandescents (5500K), and can also sink an 18" T5. The bulbs sit above a glass versacover, as they are bare and I wasn't quite sanguine about leaving them completely open to condensation, etc. I can always add a low-wattage T5 as a third bulb.

I've read Rex Grigg's "minimum wattage threshold" study, and hear you on the wpg breakdown on very small/very large tanks. Just don't actually know _what_ the breakdown is on a 10.

I thoughts Lumens was a measure of visual characteristics, not related to intensity?

Thoughts on the setup I went with?



Zapins said:


> A 65w spiral bulb looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Sounds like you got a good deal on the hood! It is just what you need. If plants grow too slowly or they show light deficiency symptoms (yellowing all over) then add a T5, but I think you'll have enough light with the 2 CF spiral bulbs you have now.

Also, lumens is light intensity Kelvin is color rating with respect to the human eye.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Zapins said:


> Sounds like you got a good deal on the hood! It is just what you need. If plants grow too slowly or they show light deficiency symptoms (yellowing all over) then add a T5, but I think you'll have enough light with the 2 CF spiral bulbs you have now.
> 
> Also, lumens is light intensity Kelvin is color rating with respect to the human eye.


I was pretty pleased for the find, esp. with the T5 option...some pics:


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

That looks wonderful! Where did you get the hood from?


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Zapins said:


> That looks wonderful! Where did you get the hood from?


Thanks, Zapins. I got it at Petco, ironically enough - the last unit, sitting orphaned on a shelf. I was there to look at their clip-on-tank overhead spotlights, to put these lights in, as local hardware stores, etc, didn't have anything that would work. Lucky!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Your tank looks great! I think that you have all the ingredients for success.

Give your plants time adjust to their new lighting regimen. 

I see no reason to think that you will have a problem. 

If it doesn't work out, then you can always go back to High-Tech.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

dwalstad said:


> Your tank looks great! I think that you have all the ingredients for success.
> 
> Give your plants time adjust to their new lighting regimen.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Diana. As I said, I love both things, the hi-tech salves my need to constantly tinker, and dance around both art and science (satisfies, I suppose, my atavistic leanings to alchemy), and also find your work extraordinary, really appreciate the science behind your paradigm and really looking forward to following this out fully - the art being nature itself, what this little ecosystem decides to create.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, I am wondering if my find above was too good to be true.

Upside, it is cheap, and it seems to be throwing a lot of light, esp. with 15W of T8 (not T5, as I originally thought) added into the mix.

The downsides are (3), in my opinion:

This thing is _heavy_.

It doesn't quite fit a standard 10 gallon tank - it rests on the top of the rim, not inside the notched runs along the rim.

Additionally, it has no slide cover, though the company offers a screen. As this unit is intended for a reptile system, I'm not surprised. I like open top tanks, to begin with, and as this unit throws out a ton of heat with the 2 spirals, I do have some concerns there, as well.

All in all, I think it is adequate, but I'd like to pose another question to anyone with experience in lighting and NPT's:

I'm getting a 2x24W T5HO for my 20H, and so will have my 1x65W PC Coralife Aqualight, currently over the 20, available. I was going to sell it, but wonder what people think about it as a light for the 10 NPT? Right now it is mounted on adjustable leg mounts, about 3" over the surface - though I can, if needs be, suspend it higher over the tank.

I don't know if that is too much lighting - obviously, a nominal 6.5 WPG over the tank, which seems extremely high, but I honestly don't know the WPG breakdown on small tanks. I know I can raise it as high as needs be, too, to effect a lower wattage.

Mounted on the tank, over an open tank, I am very pleased for a lot of reasons - aesthetically, slim profile, and in terms of gas exchange and ease of working with a tank, I always prefer open tanks anyway.

As it stands, on the 10, with the reptile hood, I have to use a glass versacover and this (extremely heavy) hood, and I do have some concerns of moment stress eventually with the existing hood.

Thoughts?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

1x65w seems find for your 20H or 2x24w. I wouldn't put them on the same tank together. The 2x24w will put out more light than the 65w (quite a bit more). 6.5 wpg with those kinds of lights would be very high light indeed. You'd probably get quite a bit of algae unless you really kept up with nutrients and CO2 and water changes.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Zapins said:


> 1x65w seems find for your 20H or 2x24w. I wouldn't put them on the same tank together. The 2x24w will put out more light than the 65w (quite a bit more). 6.5 wpg with those kinds of lights would be very high light indeed. You'd probably get quite a bit of algae unless you really kept up with nutrients and CO2 and water changes.


Zapins, to make sure I'm clear with what I am trying to do, I was planning on placing the 2 x 24W T6HO over the 20H, and take the PC 65 off the 20, and use it on the 10 - not sure from the above if you were thinking I meant I'd combine the T5HO and PC over the 20, or not...

So, to clarify, you do believe the PC 65W would be too high a light over the 10, without CO2, etc.? I kind of felt it was a ridiculous stab in the dark, but I honestly don't know what rules of play exist for small and nano tanks, in terms of what is considered "high" light or not. I do plan on sustaining a large mass of floating plants on top - I tried duckweed, hated it, and after much diligence, took it all out (I think), but would still like to try to find a way to use the PC 65, in an NPT setting. Any suggestions? Would a 55W 9325K be closer to doable, esp. if I did lay in a lot of floaters?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

The most important thing to take away from this is: 


> - I tried duckweed, hated it, and after much diligence, took it all out (I think),


I freaking hate it too. It somehow finds a way to get back into my tanks. I think it sets seed and sprouts later on. The tricky evil little bugger.

I had thought you meant combining both lights on the 20H, so thanks for the clarification. Anyway, I think 65w of PC light on the 10g might be pushing it a bit without floaters. The tank isn't very deep so most of the intensity gets to the bottom. A better rule of thumb with lighting is that for about 18-20 inches of depth you want to have 65 watts of light for medium-high light. Intensity diminishes as depth increases, so a very tall tank with a 65 w on it won't be high light, and by converse a 10 gallon with only 12 inches of height will be in the very high light range with a 65w.

I think there are two a couple of good options at this point, you could keep the spiral bulb hood without floating plants, you could put the 65W or 55W PC bulb on the 10 gallon tank and just raise the 65w fixture another 5-6 inches above the surface of the water, or 2-3 inches for 55w so the intensity is reduced if you didn't use floaters. With floating plants the lights can probably be mounted on the tank without a gap with no trouble. Of course if algae problems start you can just raise the lights to compensate.

9325K would be a good color, I've heard good things about it, even though it is a pain to type 

What did you mean by NPT? Non planted tank? If so, you could set up an emersed setup and grow plants in a tub. I've got 3 tubs with all my extras, just in case I need them later on.


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

Zapins said:


> The most important thing to take away from this is:
> 
> I freaking hate it too. It somehow finds a way to get back into my tanks. I think it sets seed and sprouts later on. The tricky evil little bugger.
> 
> ...


Thanks Zapins. Yeah, I feared this was ultimately too much as well, and to hang it over the top isn't something I want to do - did it on the 20, originally, not quite sanguine to have an open top and a light swinging by chain - every time I bump it, I fear the whole thing will come crashing into the tank.

My only real concern about the reptile hood is that it is huge, heavy, hot. I've never felt a ballast and hood this heavy before, and it really heats up quite badly. Concerned, eventually, about moment cracks in the aquarium as the hood rests, really, on 4 points of metal on the rim.

The other thing I just realized is that the PC is a 24" PC, and I can only get 65W or 55W out of the 21" light; but as the tank is 20" long, I might be able to drop down to a 16" - 18" light, in which case I can get lower wattages - the 16 comes in 36W, for instance. Or, go with floaters, which is my bent - except that as I understand it, in an NPT, floating plants have about a year before they start giving up the ghost. Options, options.

Oh, by the way, by NPT I mean "natural planted tank," El Naturale, Diana Walstad method.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Ahhhh I see. I would agree with NPT tanks not sustaining floaters for very long. I've got a 125g with a capped soil substrate and the floating plants look terribly nitrogen deficient. I actually have to dose fertilizers for them 

I suppose you could feed more fish food or even dose some N and P every so often if the plants start to show deficiency symptoms. I think you'll have to do this if you plan on using very high lights (which is fine because I do it as well on my 125 - 4x65w)


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## peridot (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: Re floating plants and mature Walstad tanks*

I gather some people find it hard to maintain floating plants in a Walstad tank once it is no longer new.
I never new that there was such a tendancy. My tank (strict Walstad with yard dirt) is 4 years old and the floaters are roaring along. Have to thin them once a week or even more often or else no light gets through to other plants. The floaters were always fairly vigorous tho' occasionally discolored a brownish tinge. Now that I maintain hardness around 5 dGH, they are all bright green and very abundant. Only added nutrients are fish food and CaCL2 to maintain hardness 
Comments?

Peridot


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## peridot (Feb 24, 2005)

Am reposting the above as a new thread....
Peridot


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## PaulNorth (Jan 17, 2009)

I'd love to achieve Diana's paradigm; bliss for me would be to have a complete, bio-dynamic ecosystem, with a variety of plants - rosette root feeders, large stem, reds, floaters - all self-sustaining. 

At the moment, it's not looking too good for me. I know this tank is very new, with wildly varying water parameters, but many of the plants are just dying off. I was hopeful they would grab what they need from the substrate, but I don't know if they are just too shocked due to spending time in my hi-tech tank.


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