# Stressed out Angel?



## DLOBREAKS (Nov 10, 2006)

Hello, 

Haven't been on in a while but i have a situation that i find very strange with one of my angels and i apologize if this thread is long. First off, the tank is pretty well planted with florite sub, (couple red swords, amazon swords, dwarf sword, couple of anubias, and one other smaller plant i can't remember the name of) DIY CO2 injection, with weekly dose of seachem liquid ferts, K, and excel. 

Water parameters

ph 6.2-6.4
dkh 2 (pretty stable) 
dgh 4 (65-85 ppm) 
Nh3/4 0
No2 0
No3 <5ppm usually 0
around 250 TDS by conductvity

My tap is around 6.8-6.9 dgh-8 and i do WC's with around 50/50 RO/Tap. Tank is around 8 months old now.

Inhabitants include: 
2 Gold veil Angels about 2.5-3 inches
1 pair of Apistogramma Agasizzi
6 neons
1 flying fox
1 chinese algae eater
Handful of ghost shrimp


Ok so the problem:
One of my angels (both around 2.5 inches now) will not eat anything except for a little bit of live brine and seriously looks like he's starving himself (sunken side where his stomach is, color lightened up a bit etc.)  This has been going on for about 2 weeks now. He used to eat ANYTHING I put in the tank, just like his 'brother' does. i usually feed a varied died of various flakes, frozen brine and bloodworms, freeze dried bloodworms and some cichlid pellets. The weirdest thing is that he acts REALLY excited when i go to feed them but never 'seals the deal'. He'll put the food in his mouth but NEVER actually eats it. Let me stress that the rest of the fish are Uber-happy. When the lack of appitite started i stopped dosing ferts and excell just incase. But now, 2 weeks later i am super stumped as to what his problem may be.

If this was a parasite/infection/virus, he wouldn't have an appetite right? Any advice or ideas would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Joe


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Angels and discus can go on a hunger strike. Try boiled/chopped shrimp. Usually, a sudden loss of appetite is a symptom of some form of internal bacterial infection. Look for loss of color or white/milky/stringy poo. The chance of internal infection is very low if you feed exclusively with flakes. Once you add frozen food, then the chance of infection goes up to at least 20%. Remember that not all the fish in the tank have the same resistance to bacterial infection.

It could also be fish TB. Without a biopsy lab, it's VERY difficult to determine the type of internal bacterial infection. If the fish is eating (even a little), then you can try medicated food laced with several wide-spectrum antibiotics (Medi-Gold or Jungle's anti-bacterial food at many stores like Petsmart). Treat the entire tank exclusively with medicated food for two weeks if you see improvement. You may need to presoak the medicated food and dice to smaller particles for the smaller fish. The fish will learn to eat the medicated food after a few hours/days.

Another forum member PM'd me about his sick green neon. After several days of treatment with antibiotic food, his entire fish population become much more active.

If the sick fish will not consume food, then you need to do three consecutive 70% water changes over 3 days and look for improvement. If there's still no appetite, then you need to isolate the sick fish and treat with Tetracycline and Maracin Two for ten days. If you are confident about your water chemistry (I suspect it's okay), then forget about the water change and isolate/treat the sick fish ASAP. Provide plenty of water circulation. It's much more difficult to treat a sick fish via the water column because often the dosage must be so high to kill the parasite that it will also negatively impact the fish. Your chance of success is problaby 60% at the early stage, and less than 30% at the late stage of the disease.

I personally prefer to treat with antibiotic food, and dose the water column with Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Tetracycline and Maracin Two. There will be little impact on the sick fish with this stragegy, and you will also treat other fish in the tank which may be at the early stage of infection. Tetracycline will have a very minimal impact on your beneficial bacteria (which is acceptable over the 10 days of treatment). Follow the mfr's instruction and change 50% of the water every other day. The plants will suffer a little, but will rebound after treatment. Note that the water will turn red. You may also see a lot of white deposits in the tank. Use the water change to remove some of this stuff. You may also want to clean the filter every 4th day of treatment.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

With Angels, the first thing I do is de-worm them, since many of them do carry parasites. That may be rather difficult if he's not eating though.

Have you noticed the Angels doing any lip locking or other bickering? That can be common at their size, so it may be that the one is getting bullied by the other one, so I agree that isolating it is a good first step.

I would hold off on any meds aside from de-worming them, and get him/her isolated with plenty of clean water to see if it improves.



> Without a biopsy lab, it's VERY difficult to determine the type of internal bacterial infection.


 That's exactly right, and the biggest reason not to use meds without a diagnosis.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

JanS said:


> With Angels, the first thing I do is de-worm them, since many of them do carry parasites. That may be rather difficult if he's not eating though.
> 
> Have you noticed the Angels doing any lip locking or other bickering? That can be common at their size, so it may be that the one is getting bullied by the other one, so I agree that isolating it is a good first step.
> 
> ...


Many internal infection are caused by gram-negative bacteria. Since there is no visual sign of parasites or fungus on the fish, the proper course of action is the application of wide-spectrum antibiotics ASAP. Antibiotics DO NOT kill fish! A bully fish does not result in two weeks hunger strike. Per the OP, "he'll put the food in his mouth but NEVER actually eats it". If the water quality is really bad, then it would also affect more fish in the tank!


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Whatever Furballi..... No, antibiotics won't _kill_ a fish (in most cases), but it goes far beyond that and can do so much more harm than good, as so many have tried to stress to you in many posts.

Most of the fish carrying parasites never do show any signs of it unless they have a very heavy infestation, but if you de-worm them, you'll often be amazed at what they've been carrying that you didn't know about.
Angels can also be notorious bickerers, and I've seen that cause the problems described above, so to medicate them without just cause would be inane, so I believe isolation would be a good place to start.

Joe, sorry this topic has veered off again to turn into another difference of opinions. 
I hope that you can look beyond that so we can all figure out what's going on so we can help your fish.


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

JanS said:


> Whatever Furballi..... No, antibiotics won't _kill_ a fish (in most cases), but it goes far beyond that and can do so much more harm than good, as so many have tried to stress to you in many posts.
> 
> Most of the fish carrying parasites never do show any signs of it unless they have a very heavy infestation, but if you de-worm them, you'll often be amazed at what they've been carrying that you didn't know about.
> Angels can also be notorious bickerers, and I've seen that cause the problems described above, so to medicate them without just cause would be inane, so I believe isolation would be a good place to start.
> ...


Perhaps you can educate us about the negative side-effects of antibiotic.

Let me understand your logic. Fish A is hungry but is afraid of fish B. Fish A takes a bite, but then spit out the food because fish A is concerned about offending fish B. I'm not an expert in angel fish, but I do know that extreme hunger will almost always (99.99%) overcome fear *UNLESS* the fish is ill.

If you suspect capillaria (similar symptom), then treat the affected fish with Dylox or Disco Med. The use of wide-spectrum antibiotics in conjunction with Dylox is recommended to attack flagellates (often seen with capillaria) which may also be present in the fish. As usual, the best time to treat a disease is when the fish is still consuming food. Water treatment is usually 60% effective.

Clean water/isolation/no light should help boost the fish's immune system during the first few days to fight the disease. Since we're at week two, you need to be very aggressive with the treatment if you want any chance of saving the fish.


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## DLOBREAKS (Nov 10, 2006)

Update for this people.

First, thanks for your responses. At this point it looks like i'm gonna have to treat him, which means quarantining him, because i don't wanna treat my show tank. He's now sptting out live brine, and has severe signs of some sort of illness (ie loss of color and pinched belly.) Althouh his behavior is still good. I will however, try the medicated food in the tank in case an infection has spread to any other fish. Thanks again for your info 

D


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

DLOBREAKS said:


> Update for this people.
> 
> First, thanks for your responses. At this point it looks like i'm gonna have to treat him, which means quarantining him, because i don't wanna treat my show tank. He's now sptting out live brine, and has severe signs of some sort of illness (ie loss of color and pinched belly.) Althouh his behavior is still good. I will however, try the medicated food in the tank in case an infection has spread to any other fish. Thanks again for your info
> 
> D


The fish is very sick if he's not taking live food. Medicated food is no longer in play. You'll need to add Dylox, Tetracyline, and Maracin Two to the quarantine tank using the mfr's recommended dosage. Maintain good water circulation and DO NOT FEED the fish. Change 50% of the water every two days. Continue with the treatment for ten days. A small 2 to 3 gal bucket with 78F heat should work well.

As for the other fish in the tank, I would feed them exclusively Disco Med and Medi-Gold for two weeks. You can substitute Medi-Gold with Jungle Antibacteria antibiotic food (found at Petsmart).


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## DLOBREAKS (Nov 10, 2006)

Update here:

Fish is not good  This morning (day three of treatment), he was stuck to the filter in his qt. Still alive, just without the will/strength to move i assume. I don't expect him to be alive when i get home from work. Thanks for everyone's help anyway. 

D


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## furballi (Feb 2, 2007)

Don't be afraid to use medicated food if you see abnormal behavior from any fish. I have yet to see a wide-spectrum antibiotic food killing healthy fish. Dosing the water column is not a very efficient method of treating a sick fish because it can take several days to absorb the med (can't instantly raise the med to therapeutic level in one dose).

Frequent water change is the easiest way to maintain a high level of immunity for the fish. Very few fish will recover if not treated within the first three days of symptom. You only want to isolate the fish as a last option. Stress will suppress the fish's immune system, allowing the parasites/fungus/bacteria to take over.

Continue to feed the other fish exclusively with Dylox plus Medi-Gold or Jungle's anti-bacterial food for 10 days.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Sorry to hear that. You've done everything you could, and sometimes it's just their time.


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