# [Wet Thumb Forum]-CO2 system on the cheap



## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

I'm putting together my 2nd CO2 system. Should have all the pieces early next week.

With the first system (on my 250 gal.), I spared no expense and went first class all the way. I did this to avoid the grief usually associated with assembling a system from scratch. It turned out to be anything except hassle free.









The second system will go on my 75 gal. and I decided to put it together from scratch. I got the regulator from Kegworks. The needle valve is coming from Custom Aquatics and should arrive next Tuesday. I picked up a 20# bottle of CO2 today and was lucky enough to get an Aluminum one.









The first system is fully automatic with a PH controller, solenoid, etc. It has worked flawlessly since I got the bugs worked out. The second system will be minimal.

Going automatic is pretty much a no brainer but I was wondering about the pitfalls, do's, don'ts of a minimal system. Things like should I turn the CO2 off at night. Should I aerate at night, etc.

Thanks


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

I'm putting together my 2nd CO2 system. Should have all the pieces early next week.

With the first system (on my 250 gal.), I spared no expense and went first class all the way. I did this to avoid the grief usually associated with assembling a system from scratch. It turned out to be anything except hassle free.









The second system will go on my 75 gal. and I decided to put it together from scratch. I got the regulator from Kegworks. The needle valve is coming from Custom Aquatics and should arrive next Tuesday. I picked up a 20# bottle of CO2 today and was lucky enough to get an Aluminum one.









The first system is fully automatic with a PH controller, solenoid, etc. It has worked flawlessly since I got the bugs worked out. The second system will be minimal.

Going automatic is pretty much a no brainer but I was wondering about the pitfalls, do's, don'ts of a minimal system. Things like should I turn the CO2 off at night. Should I aerate at night, etc.

Thanks


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

I leave mine on full time, I never need to touch it except to get the bottle filled!
Make sure your KH is 4 or higher,
start off with a really low bps and than check you CO2 value in the morning before the lights come on.
Keep slowly increasing the bps until your measure about 30ppm before the lights come on.

My PH only shifts by about 0.1.
My CO2 level in the morning is ~35ppm
and when the lights go out it's ~28ppm
I don't aerate ate all!


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## Vicki (Jan 31, 2003)

I leave mine on 24/7 also; no additional night time aeration. I do have AquaClears that I run on those tanks that provide minimal surface agitation. PH swings no more than .2 in 24 hours, no problems at all. Unless you have a heavy fish load, there shouldn't be a problem running your CO2 all the time. Like Ekim, I never touch mine except to fill the bottle.

http://www.wheelpost.com


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## ekim (Jan 31, 2004)

Oops, forgot about the fish load, as Vicki mentioned! Too many fish might consume all the O2 that the plants have built up over the day!


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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

The only other parts you need are check valve, bubble counter, tubing, and reactor means. It really is pretty simple. I leave mine on 24/7, with KH of 4, and lots of fish in the tank. I also have some bubbles going (also 24/7), because I like the look, but it tends to stabilize the CO2 level as well.


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## Steve Hampton (Feb 13, 2004)

Likewise, I run CO2 24/7. I don't provide any additional nighttime aeration either. My 10# pressurized tank provides CO2 to two aquariums (55G & 75G), each with a separate needle valve and reactor...the bubble rate is different for each and both have moderate fish loads. Both aquariums maintain stable CO2 levels around 30-35ppm.


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks all.

My kh is 5 so I should be ok there. Bubble Counter with built in check valve will be arriving with the needle valve. I already have the tubing so I should be set to go.

I've been running a Carbo Plus in this tank for the past 6 months and it's just not cutting it. I can't get the PH below 7.2. I'm hoping that when I get the system running I'll see an explosion of growth.


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

UPDATE -

The needle valve and bubble counter arrived today. The system is up and running.









The needle valve is a Noshok 102 MFB. Seems to work ok, I'm running about 1 bubble per minute at present. Doesn't seem to be any drift.

The regulator output was pre set to 24lbs. Is this ok?

Not sure if I'm gonna like the Reactor 500. It's releasing bubbles even tho it's running at spec. I'll give it time to settle down and see how it works.


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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

You mean 1 bubble/second? 24 psi is a normal pressure.


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Yea, thanks. That is one bubble per second.









The PH dropped from 7.4 to 6.7 after about 4 hours at this rate so I cut it back to about 15 bubbles per minute. I'm guessing that it might take a day or two for the plants to get used to and start using the co2. I'm also guessing that I need to be careful not to over do and overdose the tank.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

The needle valve you selected is new to me. What did it cost? What pressure do you have your regulator output set to? How fine a control with the needle valve do you have? Can you turn the valve handle a lot to get a small change or is the valve virtually closed with small valve handle movements required to adjust?

Bob


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## Rex Grigg (Jan 22, 2004)

Here is the Noshok web site. Request a catalog.

http://www.noshok.com/

Moderator










American by birth, Marine by the grace of God! This post spell checked with IESpell available at http://www.iespell.com

See my Profile for tank details.


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

It was $15.99. It's got a huge solid brass knob which makes adjustments easy. I can easily get less than a bubble a second which is all the adjustment I need.

Regulator pressure is at 24 lbs.

All in all the system works very well. So far.


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## djlen (Jun 22, 2004)

Doomer, is that an inline needle valve(barb on each end) or do you have to order an extra barb to make it inline?
Len

HAVE DISCS - WILL TRAVEL


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

It screws directly into the regulator. You'd have to get fittings to make it inline. They sent a nylon fitting to go on the hose end. It was a pretty tight fit and I almost gave up trying to get the insert into the end of the hose but finally got it. I suppose the tight fit is good as far as reducing the chances of a leak.

btw: Custom Aquatics called me to find out what kind of regulator I had and what kind of tubing I was using so that they could send me the proper fittings. I was impressed to say the least. The call was coast to coast on their nickel and surely cut into their profit.


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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

This is interesting. The catalog is online in pdf format. The published flow characteristics show a Cv of 0.07 at 1/2 turn open, and that's the bottom of the range. This flow charcteristic is similar to my old Parker N200B, which was a terrible needle valve, for this application, and compares poorly with the Clippard 4 series, which has a lowest published Cv of about 0.005. Now we have a testimonial that this valve is working well at 1 bubble/second with 24 PSI across the valve. That is a working Cv of about 0.000001. This should illustrate the difficulty of picking a good needle valve for metering Co2 into an aquarium. In any event, since Doomer is having a good experience, it may be worth a try.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

I sent an e-mail to Noshok and this is the response. Interesting.

> Could you please answer a few questions about your Series 100 valves:
> 
> 1) Does hard seat, metal to metal, mean that the valve can be completely
> shut off?

Yes, the valve can be completely shut off.

> 2) Your catalog states: "the metal-to-metal hard seat design is 100% Helium
> leak tested to 1 x 10 -4 ml/s at 200 psi on each Mini Valve." Do I
> understand this to mean that when fully closed, there is less than this
> amount of gas flow?

That is correct. We charge the valve with 200 psi of helium and use a helium leak sniffer to detect flows greater then 1 x 10 -4 ml/s.

> 3) I need a valve to control CO2 at very low flows. Approximately 1 bubble
> per second in an aquarium. Probably about 1/3 ml per second, with input
> pressure at 20 lbs.. Can you elaborate on the ability of your valve to
> provide precise control at such levels? From looking at the graph in your
> on line catalog, there is no information given for 0 - 0.5 turns, which is I
> would guess where I would need to be adjusting.

Traditionally, one would use a metering valve for these applications. Metering valves employ a very fine needle and have very fine adjusting threads (like a pair of micrometers) to get precision flow rates. There are many "turns" of the handle for these fine adjustments. They are very costly compared to a needle valves because you are paying for the precision. However, although our needle valve is not ideal, this doesn't mean that it won't do the job for you. As you can see from our flow rate charts, we begin at 1/2 turn with about .065 cv. That equates to about 700 ml/s. About 1000 times more then you need. There are two things you can do here. The first is to reduce your input pressure as low as possible. The second would be to close the valve slowly until it is almost completely shut. There would be no "turns" of the handle just a minimum amount of torque used to shut off the valve while still allowing a "leak". This can be accomplished by starting off in the open position and closing it finger tight until your desired flow rate is achieved. It may take a few times but it is achievable. I would also recommend our soft tip needle valve in this application. It is better for gas shutoff and the plastic to metal seal would be easier for finger tight adjustments at this low of flow rate.

Michael Lancaster
Engineering Manager
Noshok Inc.
www.noshok.us
440-243-0888 phone
440-243-3472 fax

> Thank you
> 
> Bob Alston
> 
> [email protected]


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

I've got it running at present at about 2 bubbles per second and it's holding it steady. PH is 6.8.








I'd like to add that the huge brass knob makes easy to control. I think all needle valves should have one.


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## gsmollin (Feb 3, 2003)

Woa, Bob, what an eager beaver you are! I am also impressed by Noshok's lengthy replies, and apparent candor. The application engineer speaks the truth. The valve will be operating in the "shut-off" region, where the needle is pressed against the seat. I am quite sure the Clippard MNV-4 is doing the same. I am also certain that my old Parker N200Bs were doing that. Then it all becomes a "touchy-feely" question on how easy it is to get this leaky valve adjusted. On the N200B is was virtually impossible. The Clippard is difficult. Doomer is saying it is "easy". I dunno. One would have to buy the valve and try it out for one's self. I can say that the Swagelok S has a control rate of 1 bubble/second/turn, but that is a metering valve and has all the good stuff in it that the Noshok application engineer talked about. I think I am done experimenting. I think you want to try one, Bob. Make sure you post your experience.


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

I also have an Aqua Medic regulator with a built in needle valve and when I take my hand off the knob the bubble rate changes. This is annoying but no big deal. The Noshok valve doesn't do this but also feels much tighter so that may be the reason.


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

It appears that my satisfaction with the Noshok valve was short lived. For some reason, today I started getting an erratic bubble flow. Output pressure remains the same so it has to be the needle valve.


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Note what Noshok said in their reply to me:
"As you can see from our flow rate charts, we begin at 1/2 turn with about .065 cv. That equates to about 700 ml/s. About 1000 times more then you need.". Also if you look at their web site at the "Flow Characteristics" tab, which has the Cv graph, the min Cv is.065 and the Max Cv, which is the Cv usually referenced by needle valves, is 0.45

For reference, the clippard has a MAX Cv of .004 - lower than the Noshook minimum!
Bob

[This message was edited by BobAlston on Sat April 12 2003 at 05:59 PM.]


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks Bob, Looks like I'll be trading this one in on a Clippard. Live and learn.

I guess I could always add a solenoid and a controller but this would defeat my original purpose. There is no Clippard dealer within 250 miles of me so I guess I'll have to bit the bullet and pay their insane handling charge.

Is there a particular model I need that will screw into the regulator or are they all the same?


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Recommend MNV-4K2 which has a 10-32 male port on one end and a 1/8-inch hose barb on the other. YOu then need a 10/32 adaptor to fit your regulator.

Note you can buy from Aquabotanic, M3 and Florida Driftwood - I think Aquabotanic may have the lowest price. Be sure to find out what adaptor it may come with. Mine came with a 10/32 to 1/8-inch NPT. I had to get a 1/8 to 1/4 NPT adaptor to connect directly to my regulator.

Good luck.
Bob


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks Bob,
I just ordered one (plus a bunch of other stuff) from Robert. I decided to go ahead and automate the system. My other tank is automated and I never have to touch it. This new setup keeps me worring about what the PH is going to drop down to during the night.

Robert, if you read this, could you let me know if I'll need anything else to hook the needle valve to my regulator?

Thanks


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## BobAlston (Jan 23, 2004)

Note that Robert H. sells the clippard valve with an adaptor to 1/8-inch male NPT. YOU will have to look at your regulator to see what size it is. Also, you might have an adaptor from your original valve. My regulator, after I removed the huge hose barg and ball-shutoff, was 1/4-female NPT.

Also suggest you consider returning the valve you had purchased. Since it was sold by an fish store, there should be an inplied fitness for the intended purpose...

Bob


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## Doomer (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks Bob, The fitting on the regulator is female. Not sure of the size but it looks bigger than 1/4 inch.

The output of Robert's needle valve is a hose barb. I got my co2 proof hose from him so it should fit. I may have to make trip to Home Depot to get the correct fitting but that shouldn't be a big deal since I'm not dealing with metric.

I should be able to return the NoShok valve but would probably have to pay shipping so I dunno if it'll be worth it.









I'm one of those who always seems to have to learn the hard way.


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