# Stunt Growth ; Please Help



## stevenlau (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm in much frustrated as almost all my plants except anubias petite and micro narrow seem to stunt in growth suddenly. Please help. You can follow the link here of my tank.

The specifications :
Tank size : 80x30x40cm
Light : 4x21watts T5NO (currently only running 2x21watts) from 11-16 and 18-21 (8hours per day)
Substrate : ADA AS II + Seachem Root Tabs
CO2 : 4kgs pressurized diffused by external reactor (4-5bps)+ small powerhead for circulation
Filter : canister with 1500L/H
EI Dosing :
KNO3 target 3ppm x 3 times a week
KH2PO4 target 0.6ppm x 3 times a week
K2SO4 target 10ppm x 3 times a week
Seachem Flourish 2ml at off day
CaCl2 target 15ppm at 50% weekly WC
MgSO4 target 2.5ppm at 50% weekly WC

I use RO water but compensate the gH with CaCl2 and MgSO4, raising the gH from 0dgH to 5dgH and the kH remains 0dkH. The temp is between 27-28 with pH at 5.4-6.6 (on/off with solenoid).

The tank has been running for almost 1.5 months and start dosing at the third week. At intial setup day, the Rotala green has good fast growth, after the first trimmed they stunt and new leaves growth turn to be smaller (Nitrogen deficiency?).

HC seems not to grow at all although I noticed they have turned from emmersed leaves to submerged leaves (new leaves appear to be very small and not growing) but they too long this time to barely spread and they are still have not rooting yet as it likely to float up when Otocinclus passing by.

From day 1 till now, I've been struggling with the frustrated hemianthus micranthemoides, they grow to some height and melted at lower stem and after replanted, same thing happen again, if the stem remains too short to be planted, the whole tip is melted. Refuse to form root at first but now some do root finally but new leaves turn to be smaller and curled a bit. Almost can't notice any growth. Some say that the HM is hard water plant and will be difficult to grow in soft water?

As for xmass moss, they are doing quite well from day 1 and have covered the whole rock until I can't see the string anymore although have some BBA on the lowest layer. In the past few days, I tried to spot treatment the BBA with Excel and 2 days ago it turned out the leaves become white and the whole patches seem detach themself from the rock although the string still holding them. The side effect of Excel?

For Ludwigia arcuata, I have no luck at all. They keep melting and dying after some growth too. They are some BBA that grow on the driftwood but I don't believe that I have a low CO2 supply or not enough water circulation. I can't even measure quite well how many bubbles from the bubble counter as the bubbles move too fast.

Lastly, some of my downoi show some new side shoot but the old leaves continue to melt little by little, why?

Some recomended increasing the light to 3x21watts but I don't notice any improvement in about 1.5 weeks. The only growth that I notice is from anubias petite although it was added recently I can see several new leaves grow simultaneously and microsorum narrow too. There's is hardly any pearling even though the rotala has reach near the surface I still can't any bubbles on the leaf at all. I have not change anything from day 1, what mistake have I done?

I am beginning to wonder what is ADA AS II role in my tank IF I have nutrient deficiency? Can't the plants just take some from it instead from water column? What is really wrong here? Please anyone share your experience with me and thank you in advance and sorry if it's too long to read


----------



## endgin33 (Jun 10, 2008)

Ok so I looked at you thread- let me start by saying nice layout. 

First question- why if you were going to run RO-DI water did you choose amazonia II- my understanding is that is was formulated for hard water? I run way different water (moderately hard tap water) and that I definitely am not an expert on reconstituting water. (For what its worth A. S. 2- has a mixed reptuation amongst local hobbist's who have the same water conditions as me- hard water) It seems like that may not be an ideal substrate mix just based on reading the manufactures recommendations. I would have assumed Amazonia I would be a more ideal choice based on water conditions- but I SERIOUSLY doubt thats the problem. 

My guess is that the light level is one of the things that is you holding back. You have some really light intensive plants (HC carpet, HM, P. helferi), but you don't have an over 2 WPG portion of the day. A little algae risk is part of the fun... Seriously, give that you seem to be a dilligent kind of guy- I bet you fertilize like clockwork and that deligence pays when you have high light. I would go to a 10 hour 2x21 watts, with a four hour burst at 4x21 watts and at least try it for longer than a day, more like a week.

Your nitrogen levels seem really low as far an E.I. dosing plan. I am not an exactly an expert (yet) but I dose my nitrogen levels to about 10-20 ppm. I have done pretty well overall at these levels in the algae wars and my plants are pretty happy. 

So the substrate is a little suspect, the light a big suspect, and your nitrogen a big suspect. If it were me (and I have always been a get a bigger hammer kinda guy...) I would go heavier on the kno3, heavier on the light, and not worry about the substrate right now until you had given that a serious shot. If you start seeing some algae issues tinker with the dosing based on what your seeing. As a note- some pictures might really assist some of the true experts lurking on the site. A picture is worth a thousand words.


----------



## stevenlau (Jul 21, 2009)

Ok, first of all I like to say thanks to you endgin33.

The reason I choose ADA AS II is I think it's the best substrate that I can buy for my system amongst other choices that is available at my LFS, namely JBL Aquabasisplus, Sera Floredepot, Tetra Substrate System and the last one Nisso Custom Soil. I also like the ADA AS II due to its water ready mix (no need to top up with inert sand) and the second reason I choose ADA AS II over I is that the I series is not available anymore at my LFS.

The reason I use RO/DI water is that I or we still don't have tap water supplied in our neighborhood yet, we mainly use ground water for any other purposes and buy drinking water for daily consumption. My ground water is likely to change its parameter due to season change and has high nitrite and the worst, slightly brownish in color and leave me no choice but to buy/use RO/DI water.

I was half success at carpeting HC on my previous setup,
















before it was attacked by green water that I suspected from my double dosing regime, I used to dose :
- 20ppm of NO3 x 3 in a week
- 2ppm of PO4 x 3 in a week
- 30ppm of K x 3 in a week
- 5ml of Flourish x 3 in a week
to the same tank and water as of now but the substrate was a mix of ADA AS II with JBL Aquabasis plus and Sera Floredepot although some said that the substrate was being disturbed and lead to unnoticed suddenly NH4 spike that cause algae bloom or green water. Indeed in my previous setup I used 3x21watts and the HC really spread but there were thread algae, some GSA and BGA and was suggested by Tom Barr to reduce the lighting to 2x21watts that saying I can grow mostly any demanding carpet plant with those lights combine with the height of my tank which is only 40cm not to reduced further by substrate. He also suggested to improve CO2 and flow, so now I use external reactor instead of disc diffuser, increase the bps rate and adding small powerhead but I have not seen the result . I also make change not to mix my substrate with any other brand this time.

Yes, I am really diligent at dosing even I measure the uptake rate before dose but the problem is the more I read and measure the more confuse I am  (even now I add both Ca and Mg to compensate the 0 dgh of water with CaCl2 and MgSO4) but yet still have not seen the improvement. I have spent a fortune to try to make this hobby more successful but every cent that I spent have given me more headache and frustration  but I really have that patience .

Back to topic, I also like to do as you suggested that increase the 4x21watts a burst for 4 hours or so but my lighting fixture only come with one main cord that leave me no option to connected it to the timer. I also suspected the low KNO3 level but now I'm adding more to 5ppm x 3 a week (let's see if there's an improvement). The reason I lowered my KNO3 level is due to effort to make the Ludwigia arcuata grows red (as some say low NO3 and high PO4 will turn the green chlorophyll of red plant to red, no?)

Finally, I will provide some pictures of my plants asap for next detailed explanation and information. Thank you very much for sharing your thought, really appreciated it.


----------



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

The difficultiy is that you can't provide one ideal parameter for all plants - different plants have different requirements. As you said, you reduced N in effort to bring out the red but at the same time you comprimise your HC growth. I believe HC do well when N is above 10ppm. The advice that was given to you before was solid. Here’s what I would do:

1.	Be ABSOLUTELY certain that you have over 30ppm of Co2. Increase Co2 little each day till you observe fish stress. I find Co2 indicator with 4dKH solution to have too wide of a margin.\

2.	It’s good that you’ve increased flow. But is the power head pointed downward? Are all of your plants swaying gently back and forth? There might be dead spots just above the HC. Just to give you an idea, I have 20x turnover per hour using 3 Hydor Koralias and 2 large canister filter for a 110 gallon. Remember, once you increase circulation, you must also increase your CO2 a bit since you have less dead spots. Once your Co2 and circulation are ideal, you should not have much of algae problem except GDA and GSA which are light intensity and NPK related and can be easily controlled. 

3.	Stunting - can be a co2 or Calcium issue. Your mg level is good. I would up you Calcium even higher from 15ppm to 20-25ppm. I advise you to stop using CaCl2 because of the chloride, instead use CaSo4. People in the past have reported issues when Chloride is high – I can’t prove or disprove. To be on the safe side, just stick with CaSo4.

4.	Increase your noon blast duration (do it slowly and gradually once you see your plants becoming healthy again). 

5.	Change all of your water and reset your tank with the following water column parameter:

•	Nitrate 10ppm 
•	Phosphate 1-2ppm
•	Potassium 25ppm
•	Calcium 20-25ppm
•	Magnesium 3ppm
•	Iron .2ppm (use DPTA chelator if you can get it)

Once you’ve reset your tank, I would dose small amount of NPK and TE daily. Go low for now and at the end of the week you can test your actual consumption and adjust accordingly afterwards. I would do something like 1ppm of Nitrate each day, 1ppm of K, .2ppm of Phosphate, .1ppm of Iron, .1ppm of mg.. Remember, avoid dosing iron when lights are on and oxygen level are at its highest. Iron are finicky and can easily become unavailable to the plants – that why you see so much discussion lately on the quality of chelators. Iron are photo reactive and will oxidize in presence of high O2. Last pieace of advice is to make sloooow and steaaady changes. Plants appreciate stability. You can't be impatient in this hobby. 

Good Luck.


----------



## deicide (Sep 1, 2009)

Go back to dosing Flourish @ 5ml x 3
Reduce K to 8~10ppm @ WC. 
Maintain 2x21watts until plants bounce back
Use CaSO4 for Calcium as suggested


----------



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Decide, I've read your other postings and I know that you are very experienced hobbyist eventhough you only have few postings. Any reason why you recommend only 8-10ppm of K? I haven't tested K at different levels but always assumed that it should be high and maintained at around 20ppm. Some other experienced folks have it at over 60ppm with no issues. I appreciate your insight.


----------



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Deicide, what element(s) in Flourish do you think is lacking or not in proper proportion? I would love to try some of your own trace mix


----------



## stevenlau (Jul 21, 2009)

johnzhou2476 said:


> I have 20x turnover per hour using 3 Hydor Koralias and 2 large canister filter for a 110 gallon.


But how do you measure it and can make sure of it? Thanks



johnzhou2476 said:


> I advise you to stop using CaCl2 because of the chloride, instead use CaSo4. People in the past have reported issues when Chloride is high - I can't prove or disprove. To be on the safe side, just stick with CaSo4.


I would like to know how do you dose with CaSO4 in dry or liquid form? As I know it won't dissolve in water or has only 0.0021g/100ml solubility rate and I'm a type of person whose like to prepare myself a stock solution of all my fertz. Thank you once again.



johnzhou2476 said:


> Increase your noon blast duration (do it slowly and gradually once you see your plants becoming healthy again).


It is sad but true that I have no option to do that as I already mentioned before that my light fixture has only one main cable that disallow me to connect it to different timer.



johnzhou2476 said:


> Remember, avoid dosing iron when lights are on and oxygen level are at its highest.


So I should dose Flourish at night only when lights are off?



johnzhou2476 said:


> Good Luck.


This is what I need the most . Thank you johnzhou2476, I will heed your advice and report back to this thread as soon as there is an improvement.

John, I discovered this about chloride toxicity on plants but not specifically on aquatic plants. Hmm...what I will do soon is large wc maybe 70-80%, stop dosing CaCl2 but CaSO4 and increase the light to 3x21watts and increase the N to 5ppm x 3 a week then.


----------



## stevenlau (Jul 21, 2009)

deicide said:


> Go back to dosing Flourish @ 5ml x 3
> Reduce K to 8~10ppm @ WC.
> Maintain 2x21watts until plants bounce back
> Use CaSO4 for Calcium as suggested


Yes, deicide I also like to know why you suggest me dosing 5ml of Flourish? What do I lack the most? and why 8-10ppm of K. Thanks


----------



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

Deicide, I took a posting from you and pasted here. I know Boron can induce toxicity at elevated levels. Copper is harmful to shrimps at elevated levels. In your opinion, what are some of the other trace elements that needs to be dosed prudently and not just dumped haphazardly? 


I use plain salts for my trace mix with no issues. Manganese Sulfate, Boric Acid , Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Molybdate, Cobalt Carbonate & DPTA FE being the only chelated trace.

The most important advice I can give with regards to making your trace is to use a highly accurate scale (I failed at my mixes due to inconsistencies until I resolved this problem by purchasing a relatively highend scale accurate to .001 resolution Acculab VIC-123 ) Using anything less that a .01 scale is not worth it IMO and will result in a poor inconsistent mix.

Not all tanks are created equal and as such going by the so called 'standard' dosages used by other doesn't mean that it will work for your tank. Tailoring the traces for your needs is important, if you are using tap water which has some traces (usually Zn, CU, FE at higer levels) then optimizing your mix to compensate is wise. If using RO/DI then it makes things easy but keep in mind these are traces and should be dosed as such. Far too often I see users dump FE into their tanks trying to achieve colors and end up with poor plant growth as they some how fail to realize they are dumping in other traces as well which CAN/WILL cause poor deformed growth... I sadly see it all the time. I'm sure the end user see it too but they either don't have the experience to read the plants or blame everything else (e.g, Co2, K, Ca, or Mg)


----------



## johnzhou2476 (Nov 28, 2006)

But how do you measure it and can make sure of it? Thanks

*Two Eheim cansiter filter give me 600gph and the three Koralia 2 gives be about 1800gph. The Koralias are pointed downward as is the spraybar from the Eheims. All of my plants sway back and forth gently. That tells me I have enough circulation if not overkill. *

I would like to know how do you dose with CaSO4 in dry or liquid form? As I know it won't dissolve in water or has only 0.0021g/100ml solubility rate and I'm a type of person whose like to prepare myself a stock solution of all my fertz. Thank you once again.

*Dose it dry, shake it in a large bottle with RO water and then add it to your tank. Your tank will be cloudy for few hours. It will dissolve in 24hours. *

So I should dose Flourish at night only when lights are off?

*I would dose in the morning or 8-10 hours after the lights go off. When the lights goes off, your O2 concentration will still be very saturated. This is more fine tunning than anything else. I don't think it'll make a huge dent. Key thing to rememeber is consistent dosing. *

This is what I need the most . Thank you johnzhou2476, I will heed your advice and report back to this thread as soon as there is an improvement.

*Keep at it and don't give up. This is a challenging hobby. I'm still learning. The funny thing is that the more I know, the more there is that I don't know. *


----------



## stevenlau (Jul 21, 2009)

Nice to have a great people like you in this hobby. Thank you very much.


----------



## stevenlau (Jul 21, 2009)

As I promise I will upload the pictures of my current plants condition.

HC that's barely alive...

















Xmass moss becomes whitish on its leaves, caused by Excel?

























HM that keeps melting at lower stem and now has damaged tips on new shoots.








I've lost too many of them, this is the remains...









Rotala green, after the first trim, some of them show no sign of growth with reduced leaf size of new shoots. Pay attention to the lower front side.









Lastly, the BBA on wood
















Sorry for the blur images as I've hard time to focus with cheap camera . Thank you.


----------

