# Which deficiency? (pics included)



## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi everyone,

some of my plants (namely Nesaea crassicaulis, Limnophila aromatica, Rotala nanjenshan) started to show signs of a severe deficiency about 6 months ago. The last two species even died recently.

I have seen several posts about similar symptoms on different plants but nobody provided a definitive answer.

Does anyone know which missing element can cause that?

Here are the pictures of my plants:


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

Personally, the first thing I would look at (provided CO2 and lighting is good) is magnesium levels. Rotala wallichii for example stops growing when magnesium levels get above 10 ppm (41.18 ppm as CaCO3). I would also check the KH to make sure it isn't too high (4-6 ppm at the most).

But that's just me.


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## dc88 (May 17, 2006)

Looks liked Calcium deficiency ? Or too high magnesium will also cause Calcium deficency.


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## werner (Jul 6, 2006)

My _N. crassicaulis_ is usually the first to show a deficiency in my tank. It might be calcium, but I would guess that it's boron you're lacking- it's necessary for calcium utilization and a lack can give symptoms similar to a calcium deficiency.

Are you dosing any trace elements (Flourish, Flourish Trace, TMG)?


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Thank you all for your answers. It's very much appreciated.

The threads I read all pointed calcium deficiency as a possible cause for those symptoms.
However, I did not know that an excess of magnesium or boron could cause calcium not to be absorbed. I will check my mg levels tonight and will post them back.

Werner, it's funny you mention boron as a possible deficiency. What leads you to this conclusion? I remember reading something similar but I don't know were and I can't find it  

For your information, I dose Flourish iron daily (10mL) and Flourish every other day (6mL).

My tank is 130gallons. (300W MH lighting, 7 hours per day + 60W T8 12H/day)
CO2 level is around 30 mg/L
NO3 10 mg/L
PO4 1,5 mg/L

How can I add boron alone?


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## werner (Jul 6, 2006)

Last water change, I noticed odd shaped leaves on my _N. crassicaulis_- new leaves very stunted and slightly crinkly (similar to what you've got). I looked around at several sources and decided I had a boron deficiency, increased my Flourish Trace dosages and now normal new leaves are growing in (you can sort of see the old and new leaves in my crappy pic.)

I can't find/remember all the stuff I looked at to come to my conclusion that it was boron, but know there are some good plant deficiency pics here in the photo album section that helped: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=12&userid=
Also see here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

You may want to add Flourish Trace to your dosing regime in addition to the Flourish. It contains the micronutrients (including boron) that are depleted the fastest. http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishTrace.html


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## BSS (May 2, 2006)

Looks very similar to symptoms I had several months back. In short, it did turn out to be a trace (likely boron) deficiency. Since then, I have really upped my trace dosing.

Regards,
Brian.


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Thanks Werner, you're right, your plant looked a lot like mine.
I read somewhere in this forum that Flourish Trace contained very little trace elements and that it was almost like enriched tap water. That's why I was not using it.
However, if I add more Flourish, I get algeae, so I might give Flourish Trace a try.

Thanks again.
I'll post pics if things get any better.

Brian, may I ask what trace you use?


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## BSS (May 2, 2006)

Edouard said:


> Brian, may I ask what trace you use?


Sure....ask away [smilie=u: !

I had been using CSM+B since the start up of my tank. Actually, when I solved this problem, I went from a premix to 1/4 tsp (or maybe it was 1/8 tsp) of dry dosed CSM+B every other day...sorry, but my note taking during that period was spotty.

As my CSM+B recent ran out, I picked up some Flourish, which I've been adding at 5 ml every other day (plus 5 ml of Flourish Fe). I've also got a bigger bottle of Aquacare Plant Nutrition (formerly TMG) that I'm gonna try after that.

I have had experiences in the past when upping my traces resulted in almost instant algae growth, so it kept scaring me away for sufficient dosing. I eventually decided to wait it out, and after about a week's adjustment period, the algae subsided and the plant growth increased.

Good luck!
Brian.


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

> However, if I add more Flourish, I get algeae, so I might give Flourish Trace a try.


Why would dosing more flourish cause algae? I thought it was a limiting factor that caused algae, not overdosing. For example, by dosing more flourish, your plants get healthier demanding more Co2, but maybe Co2 is a problem and then algae appears.

Do the plants that have problems have a good root system? Are you planting the tops, or trimming? I've noticed that with sensitive plants, you get deficiencies even after the first trim. Like around the second trim there is enough root structure to mobilize nutrients correctly.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Strictly speaking about the Nesea - this is not a deficiency but rather overdose of Mg.

Reducing the Mg always takes care of that problem with the stupid Nesea that is not even that pretty of a plant  I've had that problem happen at least 3 times now and every time lower Mg cures it.

--Nikolay


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Several things can result in Ca deficiency like symptoms, so when you see crinkled pinched leaves like that it is not always as easy as "add more Ca"

Like others have already said, boron can cause Ca deficiency by limiting the uptake of Ca into the plant.

Too much Mg like niko mentioned can also cause Ca deficiency by blocking the uptake of Ca from the water. The same can happen if you have too much potassium. So balance your dosing between the three elements Mg, Ca, and K, because if any one of them gets too high in concentration it will block the uptake of the others, and you will get deficiency symptoms despite having enough of all of them.

Also, some species are more sensitive than others to this sort of thing, R. wallichi/neasea are 2 examples. Other "soft water" loving plants are also usually good examples of plants that are more sensitive.


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Sorry for my late reply, I was in vacation last week. 
Thank you all for your answers.

As you said, a lack of Boron and an excess of Magnesium may be the cause. 
I would like to change my dosing to see if the nesaea recovers.

The thing is, given the fact I use Flourish and Flourish Iron as traces:

if I want to add more Boron I have to add more trace (Flourish).
But if I want to reduce the level of Mg, I have to reduce my trace! (less Flourish). :Cry: :Cry: :Cry: 

Is there another mix with more Boron, and less Mg?

Thanks in advance.


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## werner (Jul 6, 2006)

Try Flourish Trace- it's like a booster shot for the regular Flourish. It contains the micronutrients (including boron) that are depleted the fastest, but without the macros, magnesium, etc. http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishTrace.html


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## Andrey (Nov 5, 2004)

I am treating such issue with boric acid. And have 100% positive result. 
When I see my plans start curving I take knife, by its end I take small amount of boric acid (thanks god it is cheap) and just dissolve in the tank - it is enough for several weeks (I have low water change).
No any harm for fish or other plans noticed.


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## Elkmor (Mar 30, 2005)

werner said:


> ... I looked around at several sources and decided I had a boron deficiency, increased my Flourish Trace dosages and now normal new leaves are growing in (you can sort of see the old and new leaves in my crappy pic.)
> 
> I can't find/remember all the stuff I looked at to come to my conclusion that it was boron, but ...


Flourish Trace, also, contain a tons of Zn. :bump:


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## Inspire91 (Jun 20, 2005)

is this deficiency the same as stunting? where a plant gradually gets smaller and smaller to the point where there is no real crown...


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

What is your substrate and KH?


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi Edward,

thanks for helping me.

My substrate is gravel with laterite. 

Here are the tank's parameters:
KH: 5 d°KH
GH: 7 d°GH (125ppm)

I still haven't managed to get Flourish Trace! So I can't tell if that would make a difference.


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## Edward (May 25, 2004)

Hi
This plant doesn't like to be pushed to grow faster by high CO2 and light. It is doing well in very dark places and also under MH lights but it seems like root development makes the difference in the new deformed leaves. Well rooted plant rarely develops this problem.


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## Edouard (Jun 7, 2005)

Your advice confirms my observations. But that goes against what we usually read about that plant.

Tropica

I will try to plant that in a lower light place to see if it makes a difference. I will let you know.


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## NE (Dec 10, 2004)

My Nesaea showed the exact same deficiency and i have been trying everything.
After the big summer-clean-out it grow perfect and looked really nice, without any known reason (at least what i thought).
Later i checked the calibration of my CO2 controller and found out that the CO2 level was *very* high, i made a recalibration and thought all was fine.
Now the Nesaea is growing in the same slow twisted way again, i have now upped the co2 level again and hope to have a well growing Nesaea again.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

I agree with NE's idea on the Nessea. My Nessea does the very same thing (along with Pogostemon stellatus) anytime the CO2 levels drop. I have had this happen many times in the past (running out of CO2, bad regulator, faulty pH probe, etc) and just recently had it happen again.

CO2 is very hard to measure accurately and these are two plants i have used as "CO2 indicator" plants in my tanks. They both seem to stunt within a day of CO2 levels dropping.


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