# Question about water changes



## dianainOH (Mar 21, 2009)

Hello,
I have been a forum lurker for quite some time, and I seem to have swallowed the hook. I have kept old school tanks for many years, with lots of filtration and plastic plants. Well, now I have pulled my 55 and 29 out of storage and setting them up as natural planted tanks. I have a copy of Diana Walstad's book, and am trying to follow it as closely as I can. I'm pretty excited; I've always had a green thumb with terrestrial plants and have always been spectacularly unsuccessful with aquatics. (But my farm girl mother hit on the right idea years ago; when she saw my pitiful plants in my tank she said "of course they won't grow- they have no dirt." I should have listened!) 

Here are my questions:
I am setting up the plants in the 55 first. I will add fish in about two weeks. I know Ms. Walstad advocates throwing them all in at once, but financial necessity dictates that I wait until next paycheck to get fish. I was wondering if I need to monitor the water as closely in the new tank for the plants as I would for fish? 

I also noticed that there are a lot of mentions of UV sterilizers on this forum. Should I consider getting one right away? In tank or HOB? Is a 9 watt enough for the 55, or should I go higher? 

Thanks!


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## brion0 (Dec 24, 2008)

Plants aren't affected by cycling tanks. An you may not need a UV lamp in a low light tank. I think people use them in high tech tanks to discourage algae blooms. Some one may verify this though.


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

I always have planted tanks with no special filtration like uv sterilizer and my tanks is doing great. you post here so you going to make a El Natural tank. You will go with soil in substrate, if you want you can mineralized it to not have algae issues or not have algae bloom. Plants, soil, filter and light is more important that fish in the first place. keep running it for 3 days and chek ammonia and nitrites, is they are low (0) then put 1-3 small fishes and wait 2 or 3 days and add more fishes. I dont agree with the 1 month maduration rule. I never do that and my fish do very well. If you planning Discus fish then wait the month. a good filter and areation is important at the first weeks.


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## 1aqumfish (Jul 28, 2008)

Do you plan to light a 55 gal with 9 watts of light? Now some people light there tank with sunlight lots of direct sunlight but other wise you got to follow the book in regards to the light requirement..

Tony


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

maybe 90w and not 9w


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Yeah, 9 watt is absolutely insufficient for 55 gallon tank. There's a 2 watt per gallon idea but the measurement in Kelvin is more accurate. The issue with Kelvin is, a lot of light tubes production companies only list down the wattage & voltage but not Kelvin.


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## jrb77 (Sep 9, 2008)

FYI, the 9 watts OP was talking about was for the UV sterilizer, not the lighting...


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## 1aqumfish (Jul 28, 2008)

That is reasonable 9w UV, but the question still remains how much light of what type and with or without sunlight?

Tony


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## Harpo (Jan 16, 2008)

If you have not yet read 'Diana's diseased fish thread', you should give it a look. I believe it will answer any questions you have about UV sterilizers.


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## dianainOH (Mar 21, 2009)

I was asking about a 9 watt UV sterilizer. For lighting, I have a shop light with two 32 watt household ('daylight' I think) tubes over the tank, plus it is sitting in large south facing window. I am adding a GFI for safety, and the light will be traded out for something better in the near future. Do you think my lighting will do for now, or should I upgrade it sooner rather than later?? I am pretty handy and I'm thinking of building a wooden hood, kind of like an Oceanic. I was thinking I could get more watts in it if I used compact flourescent bulbs instead of tubes. I've also read that they last longer. (Any thoughts??)

I haven't even started with the 29 yet. It is sitting under the 55. It also gets sunlight since the window is floor length. I'm trying to do the best I can within a budget, and reuse equipment that I already have, if possible. My husband already frowns at the expenses that my four large dogs and two cats incur, and I can't slide debits from the LFS into the grocery budget like I can dog food......

Thanks for all of the wonderful advice and responses you folks are giving me. It's really nice to have people to talk to who've done this before.


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I waited to add my fish and I was glad I did. My soil did not list fertilizer on the ingredients but it did release ammonia for around a month. I planted right a way and when ammonia and nitrites were 0, I started stocking. I was getting very good plant growth so I stocked all at once. 2 snails, 12 micro-rasboras, 5 cories and 5 amano shrimp in 10 gallons. I never had any spikes. In fact I never even read any nitrates.


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## 1aqumfish (Jul 28, 2008)

I think starting a little low on the light then moving up to more light will avoid some of the algae issues. The high tech approach reduces the photo period to accomplish this. A NPT never goes with that much light though. Good luck with your set-up and I look froward to see some pictures in the near future.

Tony


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

If you are on a budget you should not get uv light. It is optional and not needed at all. It is expensive to buy and the recurring cost every year or two for expensive bulb and electric bill for it as well is not worth while in my opinion. It's only if you have valuable fish and you want to protect them from spread of disease is when it might be useful. Since you have multiple tanks, mind as well quaratine the new fishes for few weeks before introducing to the main tank as alternative to uv light to prevent spread of disease. You are doing el-natural and what is el-natural about UV filter? It is a high tech gadget mind you. It is effective against green water but you should know, that UV filter will mask the problem, you are better off figuring out the cause and treat the cause instead of symptom using UV. So having a southern window, I think you are all set. Focus on getting lots of plants initially especially focus on ones that grows like weeds initially will go a long way in having a low maintanence trouble free setup with very low cost. I have gone through many algae issues because I didn't have heavily planted tank in the beginning. I battle first hair algae, than green water, than BGA and have finally have a tank with little algae. I don't have the chore of cleaning algae every week now. The only thing I do now is replenish the evaporated water, trim the plant and remove dead leaves once a week or two. This is aside from feeding the fish of course and maybe change partial water every couple months. I have a water pump so no filter media to worry about or filter to clean. I have an automatic light timer so no chore to turn light on or off. Right now, my only concern is how to stop my fishes from reproducing so much!


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## Alex123 (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh on the topic of fishes. It might be a good not to have fishes in there. I put fishes in the day I setup my tank. But looking back, they will create bio load and they are not useful to plants initially. Maybe giving the plant a few weeks to establish and flourish is a better way. That way when fishes are introduced, you have a tank that can handle algae a little better. Algae is the biggest obstacle, without it your plant will grow noticable. faster.


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## drtechno (Mar 31, 2009)

the plants will be fine..
as they will adjust the chemistry as it cycles

then after a month, look at the ph and other perameters.

if it ok for fish, go ahead add fish.

look at the ph and keep that ph level in mind when selecting fish 
research your fish to see if they like that ph before purchasing them. do not adjust the water perameters just for the fish. the plants will adjust it back to where it was if you do.

its better to work around with the ph the tank wants to be, not what you want it to be.

I would not worry about the uv thing I only use em if the fish in the tank got sick.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Alex is right. In your situation, a UV sterilizer is totally unnecessary. Instead, spend your money on a good plant selection.

Instead of a filter, you could get by with a cheap Mini-jet pump that simply circulates water.

Your lighting sounds fine with the good window light and two 32 watt fluorescent light. I'd make sure that you have at least a 12 hr daylength.

I have no problem with waiting a few weeks to add fish. It certainly can't hurt! 

I'm glad that your mom and I agree about aquarium plants needing soil.


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## dianainOH (Mar 21, 2009)

O.K., I will wait on the U.V. sterilizer. I've upgraded my light a little by rewiring my old hoods to accept four standard bulbs (another great idea I found on this site ). I now have four 26w CF bulbs. I also set up my 29 the day after I set up the 55 as I got a little happy with the plant buying and ran out of room. I also rewired that hood. I now have a 26w and two 13w over that tank (no sun). 

I currently have the big whisper double hob filters on both tanks. I also have three penguin 550 power heads sitting in a box. Should I buy some sponge prefilters and switch to the power heads? 

Both tanks are doing well, but no fish yet. I am really undecided about what I want. The only thing I am sure of is loaches (probably clown) in the bigger tank and corys in the smaller one. In addition, all of the LFSs I have found here have crappy fish- untreated ich, gasping fish, etc. Perhaps there's a good store I haven't found- I'm pretty new here. But I have found a lady on craigslist that does a run to a breeder once a week. She has emailed me an extensive list of fish that she can get, as well as a few types of plants. Considering the quality of the pet stores I am seeing here, I may just take a gamble and order from her. 

Ms. Walstad, I'm thrilled that I ran across your el natural idea (I was actually looking for diy wet dry filter ideas). If I'd been smart enough to listen to my mother, instead of being horrified about the idea of putting DIRT into a fish tank, I might have experimented years ago. What actually happened is that I patiently explained to her why it would never work- and of course my plants died again. I'm certain that there is a 70 year old farm wife somewhere in Iowa who has had an el natural tank going for the last 40 years with plants from her local pond and guppies she bought at Woolworths. I have to give you great credit for combining science with common sense and explaining it to those of us that have been locked into old ideas. Bravo!


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 3, 2009)

dianainOH said:


> My husband already frowns at the expenses that my four large dogs and two cats incur, and I can't slide debits from the LFS into the grocery budget like I can dog food.....


That is awesome... :rofl:
I know how you feel. Have fun with your NPTs!


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

I have found two of the most important parameters is the water flow rate and the surface disturbance. They control two different things and are very critical. With my HOB I was unable to separate the two parameters so I ditched it.

I am using a submersible pump. An adjustable powerhead would be better.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

dianainOH said:


> Oprefilters and switch to the power heads?
> 
> Both tanks are doing well, but no fish yet. I am really undecided about what I want. The only thing I am sure of is loaches (probably clown) in the bigger tank and corys in the smaller one. In addition, all of the LFSs I have found here have crappy fish- untreated ich, gasping fish, etc. Perhaps there's a good store I haven't found- I'm pretty new here. But I have found a lady on craigslist that does a run to a breeder once a week. She has emailed me an extensive list of fish that she can get, as well as a few types of plants. Considering the quality of the pet stores I am seeing here, I may just take a gamble and order from her.
> Bravo!


You are smart to seek out reputable suppliers of fish. If you see sick fish in LFSs tanks, walk away. It means they don't care about their fish, their customers, or disease transmission.

Diseased fish can take much of the fun out of aquarium keeping.


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## svenster88 (Jan 16, 2008)

dwalstad said:


> You are smart to seek out reputable suppliers of fish. If you see sick fish in LFSs tanks, walk away. It means they don't care about their fish, their customers, or disease transmission.


Personally I think judging the owners and employers on the basis of diseased fish is too harsh. Of course if a lot of fish are ill and the tanks look dirty, or even the entire shop, then one should re-consider supporting the business. But from my personal experience of working in a FS I can say that we tried our best to help our customers, as well as keeping the fish healhty and well fed.

Now, especially when winter or summer temps reached extremes, certain fish seemed to get more stressed during the transport than others (e.g. clown loaches/ discus etc.). Subsequentially they didn't look to healthy for the first few days but they soon made a full recovery.

I think, in addition to your impression of the shop as a whole, it is the impression of the people and their level of competence that counts. But of course that does not excuse an ill-managed shop, displaying diseased fish (especially if such are still for sale). In my opinion, if you see some diseased fish then ask and see if there is a competent explanation for it. You should be able to get a feel if mere carelessness or errors in treatment are the cause. If that seems to be the case, then walk away....


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## colinsk (Dec 29, 2008)

My LFS always has a couple of tanks in quarantine and they hold fish before selling them. I think it is reassuring to see a tank marked "Not For Sale, Quarantine". It might make some people squeemish but it makes me feel a little more confident.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

colinsk said:


> My LFS always has a couple of tanks in quarantine and they hold fish before selling them. I think it is reassuring to see a tank marked "Not For Sale, Quarantine". It might make some people squeemish but it makes me feel a little more confident.


Your LFS sounds great! No LFS can guarantee that their fish are healthy, but your store is making an effort and has the right attitude.

Too many stores are selling diseased fish and then blaming their customers when the fish don't do well. While some beginners may be naive about water quality, etc, that's no excuse for stores not to do everything they can to sell healthy fish.


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## dianainOH (Mar 21, 2009)

Unfortunately, the local stores seem to be selling their diseased fish. Having worked in a pet store for several years while I was in college, I do understand that there are a certain number of casualties when fish are under stress. But there is no excuse for tanks with long dead floaters or obviously diseased fish offered for sale. One store actually had a big sticker on the front of a tank full of ick infested fish advertising their great sale price. I heard about another store today. I am going to check it out this weekend. Wish me luck.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

dianainOH said:


> Wish me luck.


Good luck! Education in critical. Once hobbyists realize the extent and problem of fish diseases, they will start to seek out more responsible stores or better sources of fish.

Hobbyists should be willing to pay a premium for fish from sources that try to manage fish diseases.


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