# tannins



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So I never really put much thought into the tannin situation in my tank but I'm starting to worry a bit now. Are they a real problem or just an asthetic problem? My tank has a yellowish tinge which recently has made me wonder if it affects how I read water test results (I have drop test kits). Also, I have a pearl gourami who's become listless and sedentary (though eats if food comes his way). All of the other fish are fine but this one shows no other symptoms. Thoughts?

Also, I'm still having troubles with the CO2- maybe the plants are scarfing up more than the fish and soil can replenish? Maybe 155w _is_ ridiculously high lighting for a 40-gal. I never should have caved on the used lighting fixture... it has two bulbs so I guess I'll remove one in the mean time.


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## Bill Weber (Jul 17, 2005)

WOW there is a lot of things going on here.

1. Yellow (Tannin) color - Try picking up a produce called Perigen from Seachem. I have a 125 outdoor tank with several pieces of wood. I placed the Perigen in my canister and no more yellow water.

2. Pearl Gourami - Not an expert here but if your fish is eating and the other fish are OK then I would not worry much about it.

3. CO2 Problems - I'm not sure how you are inducing CO2 into the tank. I am sure that the fish and soil are not producing CO2. A $10 drop checker can tell you how much CO2 is in your tank.

4. 155w in a 40 gallon tank - That equates to 3.875 WPG. This is a bit much for most plants. You did not mention how long your lights are on, tank depth, or plant load but you should start with around 2 wpg for 8 hours. 3.875 will cause algae problems.

Hope this helps some.


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## NoSvOrAx (Nov 11, 2006)

Carbon will remove the tanins also, and its cheaper.  Also I run 130w of cf on my 29G (4.4827 wpg) and its the nicest tank I have.


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## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

Fish do produce co2, but you'll never get very high levels just from fish. I think the idea with the el natural method is that you are looking for slow growth and low maintanance so co2 levels aren't really an issue. There is going to be some co2 in the water naturally just from absorption from the air, and a little more from the fish, but you're never going to have high levels and you don't really want high levels anyway, if you had more co2 you would have to start fertilizing etc. and you would therefore not have an el natural tank anymore. What exactly do you mean by troubles with co2?

Tannins will also probably be removed by using activated carbon in your filter. I'm not totally clear on whether this will remove a lot of good substances from the water too, but I have heard from several experienced sources that carbon won't really remove all that much from the water as far as nutrients etc. unless you are keeping it in all the time and changing it regularly. In an el natural tank I would think it would have even less of an effect, since you are not relying on your water itself for nutrients but on mainly the substrate, and since water changes are relatively rare it's only a problem usually at startup. So personally my plan with my new tank is to use carbon for a week or so just to get rid of the yellow color in my tank. I believe tannins are actually tannic acid (one major component of iced tea, incidentally) and result from the decomposition of organics in your water source, so they possibly will affect pH to the acidic side, but probably just slightly. Otherwise they are harmless to the fish.

I think you have too much lighting too, the only way I can see getting away with that much light is by doing co2, ferts, etc. I don't think it's needed on an el natural tank and likely will just cause issues.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Activated carbon will remove tannins from the water but it also removes DOC(dissolved organic carbon) as well and that's something you don't want. Tannins won't hurt your tank or fish so you can just leave it in there but a lot of people don't like the looks of it so they do whatever they can to get rid of it. Personally, I like the looks of a tank with some tannins in it.

Also, I don't think you'll have to worry about the tannins making the water more acidic because I have Black water Extract in my tank and the pH is at a steady 8.3.


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## Carissa1 (Aug 25, 2007)

Where does dissolved organic carbon come from?


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## Endler Guy (Aug 19, 2007)

Carissa1 said:


> Where does dissolved organic carbon come from?


From decomposition of organic matter - leftover fish food, fish poop, mulm, and the organic matter in soil. There's a lot of carbon in anything that was ever once living.


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## tkos (Oct 30, 2006)

Tannins won't do much for the pH of your water. Water changes will help lessen it the levels as well. Though it will take awhile. My tannins took months to eventually go away with weekly water changes.

How old is the gourami? My bettas usually get listless and hang out on the bottom when they get older. they make a go for food, but that is it. If its colour starts to fade then I would be concerned, though there may not be anything you can do at that point but keep an eye on it.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Carissa1 said:


> Fish do produce co2, but you'll never get very high levels just from fish. I think the idea with the el natural method is that you are looking for slow growth and low maintanance so co2 levels aren't really an issue. There is going to be some co2 in the water naturally just from absorption from the air, and a little more from the fish, but you're never going to have high levels...
> 
> 
> > I would like to add that the bacterial decomposition that generates tannins and DOC also releases CO2 as a byproduct (my book, page 59). Therefore, if you see a lot of tannins in the water, there is plenty of CO2 being generated for plants.
> ...


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Thank you all for the info to digest! I was definitely thinking more along Walstad's book regarding fish food and CO2 levels. It seems like they're always hungry so very little makes it to the bottom as fert. But I feed them up to four times a day, almost a solid tablespoon of flakes/frozen blood worms each time. Again, I have 26 fish. 

"A $10 drop checker can tell you how much CO2 is in your tank."

-I already have one and it reads "frowny face." Or bad. Now I guess this is relative but once in a while the CO2 will pop up a bit. I no longer have any injection/fermentation so this tank is officially El Natural.

Regarding the lighting, I failed to mention it's T6- as I (poorly) understand it, this means less intense than flourescent. And it's 5000K. I looked the bulb over carefully today as I cleaned all the baked flies off it. 

If the tannins are ok (even as a mild acid) than I'm not monkeying with it. My algae problems are mild (right now) but I've been burned before almost over night with algae. 

The pearl gourami isn't that old- not even a year. An emperor tetra in my tank did this once and went very pale. But then snapped out of it and is fine again. The gourami has definitely been sicker longer though- I think he's the scapegoat for the other pearl gouramis.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Oh, regarding the light again- I have I'd say a fair amount of plants (I have photos posted on my info). I leave the light on for 12 hours but I've been reconsidering that for a while. I'm just gun shy about hasty changes. :-/


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## tkos (Oct 30, 2006)

Well if you have multiple gouramis then yeah, they can be quite terriotrial and aggressive to each other. It may be time to find that guy a new home as things generally don't get better when it comes to aggression issues.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> Regarding the lighting, I failed to mention it's T6- as I (poorly) understand it, this means less intense than flourescent.


A T6 is about 30% more intense than a T8.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So i did some homework today on fluorescent light bulbs and found that the T systems only determines the size of the bulb/pins (for example, a T5 is 5/8" wide). No where could I find anything that clarified intensity differences between bulbs- all of that seems to be a matter of wattage and length. Please post a link if you know of such a clarification. I feel very confused on this. :-/

I'm looking carefully at the gourami and his problem almost seems to be swim-bladder related. He can exert quick bursts of energy to the surface then plummets like a rock. He just doesn't seem to have full motion range, either. :-( He doesn't even hide, exactly- and the other fish are leaving him alone.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

I used a light intensity meter to get the difference.


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## marke14 (Mar 27, 2007)

Emily6 said:


> I'm looking carefully at the gourami and his problem almost seems to be swim-bladder related. He can exert quick bursts of energy to the surface then plummets like a rock. He just doesn't seem to have full motion range, either. :-( He doesn't even hide, exactly- and the other fish are leaving him alone.


I've read that mashed up peas (green ones I think) might help with swim bladder problems. Not sure if the PGs would eat it or not.

Good luck!

-Mark


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Sadly the pearl gourami passed away two nights ago.  In regards to the peas- he wasn't eating his last few days. But if I ever find a similar situation, I'll consider that thought.


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