# First planted tank, what would be best substrait for a newbie?



## solchitlins

First off my tank is 4'x2', so I need to consider costs here.

*Plan A.*
I bought a giant bag of miracle grow organic choice potting mix $9
20 pounds organic garden soil, just encase I need extra $5
organic peat humus "moss" $2
Still need to find clay.
I'm going to strain my pea gravel to a smaller size
the plan was to lay down 1.5" of "soil" and cap with the gravel.

but after reading about how soil needs to be replaced, how uprooting is a mess etc.... also some concerns about the soil being to exposed to my water due to gravel not being small enough ...

I started thinking about doing plan B.

*Plan B.*
Buy 2" of eco complete online,"this will cost $130" or eco mixed with flourite 
and return the soil.
and use root tabs.

but I really like the idea of low maintenance Walstad method, with this plan I will be signing up for a lifetime of adding fertilizers right? 
so I came up with plan C.

*Plan C.*
Do the whole soil thing.
But instead of capping with my pea gravel buy an inch of Eco Complete or Flourite to cap with.

Keep in mind that this is my first planted tank and the goal is to have years of low maintenance, clear water, happy plants and fish

What would you suggest and why?


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## Michael

None of the above.

I would have picked A, except the soil you describe is too rich in nutrients and organic matter. You will need to prepare it in some way (soak and drain, mineralize) and/or mix it with some low nutrient, high cation exchange capacity (CEC) material (Turface, Safe-T-Sorb, Flourite, etc.)

Pea gravel is difficult to plant in because it is so coarse and round--the plants just slip out. Typical aquarium gravel is better, or one of the other inert substrates you mention.

Moving plants is a soil substrate tank is not that messy if you have patience and do not try to do to much at once. But if you like to completely redesign the tank every week, it probably isn't a good choice.

Soil does not need to be replaced. After the initial nutrients are exhausted, they can be supplemented with root tabs or a DIY version.


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## solchitlins

So plan C but with something mixed into the dirt and put the same thing as a cap?


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## deup

i myself is in same boat in prep for a soil base tank. zapins has been helping lots with info and such  . myself i am goign with scotts topsoil premium . no extra fert. and pool sand as a cap.


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## Michael

solchitlins said:


> So plan C but with something mixed into the dirt and put the same thing as a cap?


Yes.


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## Zapins

Yes plan C sounds good but you definitely don't want to buy soil that has a lot of organic stuff in it. Compost, leaf litter, or stuff with "enriched" labels on it are NOT what you want. You want to choose soil that has a relatively low amount of organic stuff that can decay over time. I've used regular un-enhanced Scotts topsoil with great results many times over the years. Be sure to read the label though since apparently Scotts has a new product that has compost added to it, you don't want that brand.

Pool filter sand is also an option to cap the soil with. It costs only $7 bucks for a 50 pound bag and comes in a number of appealing colors. Pool-supply shops sell it.


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## solchitlins

so I should or could get scotts top soil if I find it, mix it with some eco complete or flourite, and make that the bottom 1.5"

then cap with 20/40 black diamond sand
or pool filter sand

Is the only difference in cap the color?


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## Zapins

Don't mix it. You want 1 to 1.5 inches of soil on the bottom then 1.5 to 2 inches of some type of gravel cap. You can cap it using fluorite, eco-complete, pool filter sand, or whatever else you want to see when you look at the surface of the substrate.

Mixing the soil and eco or fluorite won't add anything beneficial since those substrates don't actually contain a lot of nutrients in them that the plants can use. It's more of a marketing campaign that makes people think they are packed with nutrients. The soil is the nutrient reservoir. They are useful because they look good on the surface.

Personally, I wouldn't use black beauty, if you want black then look into dark pool filter sand, fluorite dark, or use eco-complete. I used black beauty with discus fish because I liked the color, but something in it stressed them out severely. They wouldn't eat for ages, turned a dark color, hid all the time, until I replaced the black beauty with flora base, then within the hour they colored up and started guzzling food. I've heard people use it with other fish species and it seems ok, but still experience with it was terrible and I won't be using it again.


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## solchitlins

Michael was saying to mix because soil was too rich, or did he mean the miracle grow/ organic soil I bought and am returning.

I think my lowes has scotts topsoil


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## Zapins

That is the soil I use and recommend.

I think Michael was saying he likes method A but he didn't recommend you using miracle grow organic choice potting mix. Too much organic material, he was saying you should add other stuff to that soil to cut down on the organics.


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## solchitlins

Ok, I returned the other stuff and got 3 huge bags of Scott's premium top soil, it was only $2 a bag.
Thanks, Zap.

Now I need to decide on cap.
Pool filter sand, black diamond or splurge on something nice like eco complete.

I'm not feeling great about the idea of slag to honest, doesn't seem right


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## deup

well depends on what you wanna do with it in adition to your setup. i used pool sand in all my tanks  and will be in my new soil tank as a cap. also thinking in future in my planted tank i plan on putting a underwater *waterfall* and pool sand is heavy enough to make it happen., the others i don't know


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## Zapins

I've used most substrates and the most aesthetically pleasing ones have been fluorite, fluorite dark, and pool filter sand. Eco has a strange gray tinge to it that I didn't really like, and its got a weird porous texture that reminds me of volcanic rocks.


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## solchitlins

wouldn't you know it, as soon as I posted that I returned the miracle grow on another forum I get this response:

"Enjoy the ammonia spikes and yo yo drama with water quality using a 'premium' soil. (Betting it contains cow manure.)
The whole point of using MG organic choice potting mix is the steady low level nutrient release it provides. I use the organic rich potting mix for tanking and my thoughts on why it works have been posted at length over a thousand times I'm guessing. Offered a couple links in the other thread.

(bag listed NPK as only 0.10-0.05-0.05) The potting mix contains only a small amount of soil and a very large portion of organic material (55-65% by volume). Listed on the bags as sphagnum peat moss, composted bark fines, leaves, twigs, wood chips and "pasteurized poultry litter" (cooked chicken crap).

Simply put it works, it works over and again for members all over the country."

I'm not trying to start a brand loyalty war here. I have no idea what half this stuff means, I ask for advice and I follow it. I was told to buy pool filter sand a few weeks ago, so I did, and folks told me to return it, so I did, now folks tell me to buy it again... same thing with the soil...

ugh, it's so fustrating


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## Zapins

I just looked up your original post on TPT and everyone is saying the same thing, the info is not conflicting as much as you think.

It seems like you are not looking to spend a lot of money on getting a decent tank up and running, so here is what you should do. Buy pool filter sand again. Re-read the posts in your thread on the other site (see link below), everyone agrees that pool filter sand is acceptable. wkndracer's initial response to you was that the gravel you posted a picture of is too big, the large gaps between that huge gravel will let soil leak out and it will get all over your tank. You need to use something smaller like pool filter sand (its so cheap its practically free 15 cents a pound). Everyone on both forums agrees that you don't want extremely fine sand like powdered sand because that will make your substrate anaerobic, but pool filter sand is perfect because it lets fresh water and air get into the soil layer but does not let soil out.

Your original thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=438473&page=2

I understand that you are new to the hobby and this must all seem confusing and complicated, but honestly it essentially boils down to you get soil and grow plants in it. For $2 worth of scotts top soil and $7.50 pool filter sand you can start growing plants with no more digging around for info on the forums.

Miracle grow is just a brand name, I'm sure the company makes soil that would work just fine. Miracle grow in general is recommended against because a lot of their products have tons of extra fertilizers and other stuff in them that helps grow terrestrial plants but will leach into the water column and cause algae. There have been dozens of threads written about it on APC, so much so, that a process of "mineralizing" soil to remove organics was developed some time ago to reduce exactly this issue. I'm surprised to hear that wkndracer recommends a rich organic based soil versus a lower organic soil, but honestly this debate probably isn't something you should be worrying about as you learn about aquatic plants. I suggest you err on the side of caution and go with a lower organic content soil simply because the stuff works just fine to grow plants and you don't have to wonder if the extra organics will cause you issues.

Ultimately the choice is yours to make, rich compost soil or soil that has less organics in it. I suggest non-compost type soil like Scotts, or hell, even the soil in your back yard that is free of pesticide/fertilizers/herbicides will work just fine. Aquatic plants use less nutrients than land plants so there really is not point loading the soil up with lots of nutrients. They don't need it and you run the risk of the nutrients leaching out and causing algae blooms.

Here is some pool filter sand I used in one of my smaller tanks, this is some of the stuff you can use.


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## solchitlins

how do you get different colored pool filter sand? I have only seen the stuff at Leslie's pool supply. I know 3m used to make color quartz but I think they discontinued it a long time ago.

Your reasoning sounds correct to me and that is why I returned the miracle grow, that and I don't want to do a few months worth of prep on the soil before using it.

The pool filter sand problem came about from many people on a few forums telling me to watch Dustin's videos on youtube and in a few of him he say's sand is awful, will release toxic gas, make tank crash etc...

There is also this guy, who I guess is the substrate guru but never tells you what he uses or his secret ratios, lol, who ripps on using dirt and sand:


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## Zapins

Please re-read my post above I did some editing and updating on it and I think you must have only seen my original post.

The colors available depend on the pool supply place, ask them and see if they still carry the colored stuff. 

There will always be a few people who disagree with any established method of doing something. Sometimes there is something to what they say and sometimes they are just grouchy, had a bad experience, or for whatever reason just don't like the method. The fact is that the majority of people on TPT and APC forums both agree that soil tanks work, you can use pool filter sand, and most favor lower organics. These things all suggest that this method is viable.

Also be careful of people who don't make their reasons known, or their source information easily accessible they are likely leading you down the garden path.


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## solchitlins

thanks Zap, couple of questions

how's safe t sorb compared to other cap substrates? I think it looks more natural and safer than say black diamond or is it still a little "iffy", is it a good idea to cap with that? 

also there is a big aquarium fish auction tomorrow near my house I plan on going to just to watch and stuff, considering that I'm almost ready to set up my tank, can I start buying plants and leave them in a bucket of something for up to a week until I fill my tank or is that a bad idea? Might be a bad idea just because I don't know what kind of plants to get too


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## Zapins

I Dont know what t sorb is? You can buy plants and store them somewhere but its not ideal and the plants will need light or they will start to die. Why not set up your tank a little earlier and put the plants right in?


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## solchitlins

this is safe T sorb, 100 pounds cost $8.66 at tractor supply, I read it has good CEC.
Looks pretty good to me, but it's really dirty


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## Michael

That's the stuff. It never really washes clean, and may leave the water a little cloudy at first, But put some filter fiber in your filter and it will be gone in a day or two.


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## Zapins

Oh neat, I've never tried that one before, looks a lot like fluorite?

Sounds like you have tried it out Michael? What did you make of it?


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## Michael

I love it! It looks great, is easy to plant in, will grow plants very well with soil or with water column fertilization. Roy (Seattle Aquarist) first suggested it to me when he was looking for a substitute for the dark gray Turface that was discontinued. Here is the thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/82245-soilmaster-turface-alternatives.html

I like to mix it 50/50 with soil (a tip from Phil Edwards), then cap with the same or sand or gravel.


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## solchitlins

is this ok stuff?


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## Zapins

You can add that clay, but why are you adding clay? Just lay down soil and then cap it with the T-sorb and everything is ready to go. The clay adds nothing that isn't already in the soil.


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## solchitlins

I thought the clay was needed for iron


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## Zapins

Nope. The soil has plenty of iron in it. The clay is needed for another soil recipe, but not needed for the soil you have.

I like your new profile picture.


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## solchitlins

I'm all set to lay down my soil with some red clay, dolomite and salt substitute.
With some safe T Sorb "sts" mixed in.

Was planning on capping this with more sts but some guy told me he has it in a tank and when fish swim too close the kick up a brown cloud and that it's too light to hold down the plants.

I also have pool filter sand I could use. Should I just cap with the sand instead?





update: I put sts and sand side by side in a Tupperware and just swirling the water slightly with my pinky finger made the sts lift up and cover the sand, and turned the water brown.
I'm contemplating chucking the sts down the wood chuck hole and seeing how they like it.

I can always buy more PFS


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## Window7

People say depends where ur live safe T can be super dirty or just dirty.

I bought 3 bag and didn't like it. I spent hrs n hrs washing it. 
I end up tossing all 3 bag on the drive way.


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## Zapins

Use the one that is least dusty. The pool filter sand I think.


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## solchitlins

I did some areas of sts and some of pfs, I went a little too deep with the substrate.
I have between 1.5" - 2" of soil and 2" to 2.5"of cap. 

Is that ok or should I try ti get some out with out kicking up dirt?


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## solchitlins

I'm tempted to empty it and take some out/ replant. But that might do more harm than good. For example I could pull the sand out and smooth out the safe t sorb, pull it forward and not have the sand at all. Or I could take out the safe T sorb and push back the sand and just do sand etc..

I'm probably over thinking this.


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## Phil Edwards

You're just fine with your substrate at the thickness it is. No matter what, the soil is going to go fully anaerobic if it's capped. The whole purpose of capping is to have something more dense to hold the soil down and to provide a porous zone for oxygen to diffuse into. This oxic zone creates a buffer for reduced species of chemicals to be oxidized, and potentially settle out, which lowers diffusion of chemicals into the water column while also making them available for plants to extract. 

You'll see an initial burst of root growth in your sand cap and safety sorb followed by an extension of roots into the soil layer. Until your plants have put out extensive, and I do mean extensive, root systems into the soil it will become, and remain, anoxic/anaerobic. That's just the nature of flooded soils. Even when there are roots all over the place in the soil layer there will still be large patches of anoxic zones. Oxygen diffuses very slowly in flooded soils and the demand for oxygen by bacteria and reduced chemicals is high. You'll eventually get oxidized channels surrounding roots, but don't ever expect or believe that your whole substrate is oxygenated/aerobic; that's a fallacy.

For best results put your plants where you want them and then don't move them for at least 8 weeks.  Trimming is ok, just wait as long as you can between trims, and don't pull the plants up for two months. When replanting ALWAYS use the rooted portion, not the unrooted tops.


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## Zapins

Well, two things help with that. Air is trapped in the soil when you cap it. This lasts a good while, then you can also buy Malaysian trumpet snails which will burrow and come out of the soil every night and force fresh water in keeping it oxygenated.


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## solchitlins

I compacted the soil down really well with a large stone before I capped it, was that ok?


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## Zapins

Not ideal but it might work. See how it does.


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## solchitlins

what is the idea way, because 1.5" of fluffy soil compresses down a lot, so is it 1.5" of compressed or fluffy soil


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## Zapins

You don't want to make it hard as a rock so you push out all the air and roots can't get into it. You want to lightly pat it down with your hand. Also, the fluffyness you mention might be an indication that the soil has a lot or organics in it. Which brand did you end up using?


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## solchitlins

I did multiple layers of Scot's, MGOCPS and Safe T Sorb, and then capped with more safe t sorb and areas with just sand. I'm most likely going to redo it tomorrow.

The plan is to drain the tank, scoop out the cap layer, measure the soil mixture layer, making sure it's under 1.5" and recap with the same amount of safe t sorb. I have a ton of this clean that I never used.

It's not that dusty in the tank, I must have done a better job rinsing it than I thought. 

If I get down to the soil and it's fubar I have plenty of soil too that I can use to redo that too.

I might try using some anchor strips to help with the plants if I can find any. I'm not sure if they work or not.
While I like the feel of the sand I think the safe t sorb hides dirt better and where every speck sticks out on sand


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## solchitlins

before:









the top line of the lower tape is where 1.5 inches of soil should be at, the top line of the upper tape is where another 1.5 inches of cap should be at.

Obviously, like me at an Indian buffet I shoveled in way too much.

below is after the re-do:










much closer to the lines 

I like the way it turned out, this is a couple hours after filling it up again










and I think I'm much better at planting now

that's a lingerie laundry bag net thing my fiance let me use to stuff with that floating grass stuff, not sure if it will work or not.

I also sunk a plastic tote full of all the plants that need to be tied to driftwood


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## Zapins

I like the redo much more than the original! What cap did you end up using? It has a much nicer color. I'm looking forwards to seeing your plants grow in.


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## solchitlins

thanks, the cap is 95% safe t sorb with a 12 pound bag of flora max black midnight tossed on top to add some weight


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## FIUPanther305

solchitlins said:


> thanks, the cap is 95% safe t sorb with a 12 pound bag of flora max black midnight tossed on top to add some weight


solchitlins, do you have an update on how the Safe-T-Sorb is doing as a cap over your soil?

I actually purchased some Safe-T-Sorb to use as a cap over soil and am afraid that it'll be too light to keep the soil down and stir up with movement.

Has anyone used just Safe-T-Sorb as a cap over soil?


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