# high phosphate problem!!!!!!!



## jacko

Hi,wonder if anyone could help me out there,i've recently set up a 70 gallon planted tank,it has 216 watts of lighting pressurised co2 system and i am using laterite and a clay based substrate by prodac.it has recently started producing long strands of green algae which is practically taking over the tank.i've tested my water which showed no ammonia no nitrite and no nitrate but the phos was 10ppm.i've just gone out and bought a tap water purifier by api and done a 50% water change.the water is now reading 5ppm of phos,there is also some phosphate remover in the external filter.how can i improve on this and virtually get rid of all the phos?


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## yoink

I don't think your plants are getting the other nutrients they need to uptake the phosphate. Are you dosing any nitrate?


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## jacko

no,i've been trying to adopt the old school method to have no nitrates and no phosphates.


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## abnormalsanon

The "old school" way sounds like fishkeeping, not growing plants...I used to think nitrates/phosphates were bad too, so I know where you're coming from!

With 3 watts per gallon over your tank and pressurized CO2, you're going to need to dose fertilizers. Even with the El Natural approach (no ferts added, no CO2, low light), fish food and fish waste produce the nitrates and phosphates the plants need.

Have you tested your tap water for phosphates? The place I used to live had 20-40ppm nitrate straight out of the tap, so I just didn't dose nitrate while I lived there.


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## jacko

the tap water reads 5ppm of phosphate but once i use the tap water purifier it removes it but then i have to put nutrients back in to condition the water.


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## bwingate

I had a similar problem when I kept a tank at work - the tap water was off the scale with phosphates. I had some sort of green filmy algea and a lot of other problems.

I finally got around it by dosing nitrates, changing the water and getting more plants.

Others have said this, but here's my take: Get as many fast growing stem plants as you can, dose nitrates and physically remove whatever algae you can. You might want to cut the amount of time your lights are on by an hour or two. Read up on Estimative Index (EI) fertilizing, you probably just need to do trace elements and nitrates.

I look at plants as a sort of complex system that need a "set" of nutrients. They will use everything they can until they run out of one of the nutrients in the set, and then they stop. Algae is much simpler, and different algae can take advantage of just one or two nutrients, so if you have an excess of phosphates (or whatever), after the plants are done taking up what they can, the leftover phosphates become an all you can eat buffet for the algae. This leaves you with two options: remove the excess or add the limiting nutrients. EI dosing is option 2 and tries to get good plant growth and minimal algae by making sure there's alway plenty of what the plants need.

Good luck
Bruce.


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## hoppycalif

Excess phosphate, or excess any other nutrient have been shown not to cause algae. Low or non-consistent ppm of CO2 has been shown repeatedly to lead to algae. Spikes of ammonia have also been shown to cause algae. Excesses of phosphates or nitrates may well be harmful to some fish, but not to plants, and they will not cause algae.


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## jacko

thanks everybody for your input,i am going to read up on EI and also test how much ppm of co2 i have in the system and make sure it's between 25-30ppm and i'll let you know how i get on.

mark.


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## hoppycalif

I suggest that you not depend on testing for setting your CO2 amount. None of the tests we can use are very accurate, and they all seem to over state the amount of CO2 in the water. I suggest that you watch the fish carefully and often, and slowly increase the amount of CO2 a little bit each day. If the fish show any signs of distress, like loss of color or swimming at the surface while gulping air, reduce the amount a little until they behave normally. That will be the best amount of CO2 for your tank. Another indicator to watch is BBA - if it starts up you have too little CO2 or poor water circulation, leading to low CO2 in areas of the tank. You should be able to set the CO2 bubble rate so BBA doesn't keep starting up when you remove it, but the fish don't show any distress from the CO2.


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## jacko

hi everyone,i've been away a couple of days and when i got home the tank was in a right mess most of my floating plants were covered in green hair algae and the plants looked terrible,so i removed a lot of the algae by hand as was suggested and i've cranked up the co2 gradually and i'm still monitoring the fish for any sign of any adverse effects but there seems to be none at the moment.i've also ordered some dry fertilisers which should be here tomorrow and then i'll start dosing the tank with them,especially with nitrates


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## jacko

just an update of the situation,i'm dosing nitrate and tropica fertiliser as EI recommendations.i don't think i need to dose phosphates 'cos there's enough in the water anyway.there does seem to be a slowing down of the algae and the plants growth seems to be faster.however the plants have still got a lot of hair algae growing on them,I'm thinking of getting some american flag fish because I've read these are prolific in dealing with hair algae,but i don't know if they are available in the uk.


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## MatPat

HEy Jacko,

Stick with the EI methods, they will work if you have a little bit of patience. You will still have to keep removing the hair algae. remember, algae need the same things to grow as the plants, just in smaller quantities. Try and keep up with daily or even twice daily removeal of the algae. Soon, the platns will have grown enough healty leaves, ou will be able to tim them and remove the algae covered parts. Once the plants get growing well, the algae does not seem to grow so well. This fish are always a temporary solution to algae.


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## jacko

hi everyone,just an update of what's going on.i bought 7 flag fish to help keep the algae down but unfortunately i must of bought the only flag fish on the planet that don't eat hair algae.i'm still using the EI method of fertilizing but i'm beginning to lose faith in it and since i've turned up the co2 i'm getting a bad problem with bba.i did what hoppy said to do which was to turn it up gradually until the fish seem to be gasping or losing their colour then turn it down and keep monitoring the fish for any stress with in the fish.my kh is 4 degrees and PH is 6.6 which shows that there's approx 30 ppm of co2 in the tank.i'm constantly removing green hair algae from the tank but alot of the fast growing stem plants are growing very fast and the slow growers like the anubas and amazon swords are getting more bba on them than i can shake a stick at.i must admit i'm beginning to think that i'm not cut out for this planted aquarium lark especially that I've got all the gear but no Idea lol.


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## snowhillbilly

As for your fish not eating the algea are you sure its hair algea or is it your best opinion thats its hair algea? Could it be some other kind of algea? PS dont feed your fish and they will find something to eat LOL. Alot of fish are used to being fed and not scavaging like in the wild.


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## hoppycalif

Good water circulation is very important also. Without good circulation the ppm of CO2 will vary at different places in the tank, and the stagnant areas will get none at all. In my tank I have just moved my circulation/filtration powerhead so it does a better job of moving CO2 rich water around. I, too, have some BBA - not much, but some. I am also still jacking up the CO2 bubble rate - no fish distress yet, but the tank is virtually full of bubbles from the pearling now.


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## Newt

Some city water municipalities add phosphate to the water system as a corrosion inhibitor. An R.O. system might be a better solution in the long run compared to the API tapwater purifier. I used to live in a town that added 15ppm phosphate and I too got an API tapwater purifier.

You can put Phosguard by Seachem or Phosban by ?? and run it in your tank. Florish Excel will kill off the hair algae along with some ghost shrimp. Pluck out as much as you can.


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## jacko

it looks like the green hair algae is finally beginning to go away but the bba seems to be still as strong as ever,what i want to know is would it be best to remove the badly infected plants whch seem to be the slow growers and replace them with faster growing plants so that they compete with the algae?


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## John N.

jacko said:


> it looks like the green hair algae is finally beginning to go away but the bba seems to be still as strong as ever,what i want to know is would it be best to remove the badly infected plants whch seem to be the slow growers and replace them with faster growing plants so that they compete with the algae?


That's good news about the hair algae kicking back. You're on your way. 

If the BBA is that bad, then I would indeed swap out the slow growers for faster growing stems. Until the tank settles some more, you can then think about transitioning in the slower growing plants. Keep a high level of CO2 and regular dosing, and you should see a continued progress in overcoming the algae battle.

-John N.


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## jacko

just an update and a question,i must admit i'm beginning to get away with and understand in a measure the EI method of fertization,which i'm more comfortable with.however using the API tap filter is proving quite labourious and expensive,i need a new cartridge already,so i'm having a rethink of whether to continue with using the tap filter or just use water straight from the tap.The water perameters for my tap water is as follows.
ph 7.6
gh 7dg
kh 3dg
phosphate 5ppm
nitrate 0
what i want to know is will i be able to get away with using the tap water if i dose nitrates to around 20-25ppm using the EI method i'm not too concerned about the ph because the co2 brings it down in the tank.the tank water at the moment is running at ph 6.6, kh 4dg, gh 8dg,phos 2ppm and nitrate at 20ppm and co2 approx 30ppm.


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## MatPat

Your water parameters look fine to me with the exception of the elevated PO4. I would suggest you stop using the tap water filter and use straight tap for amonth or so. It would save you some money which is always a good thing 

The city of Dayton adds 6ppm of phosphates to my water supply and I typically add 2+ ppm PO4 and ~20ppm of NO3 throughout the week and have good plant growth and minimal algae. 

Let us know how things work out for you and above all, make sure you CO2 stays consistent.


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## Newt

Having zero nitrAtes can trigger BBA as well as too much iron and the wrong lighting spectrum.


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## jacko

Hi everyone,thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and are helping me to achieving an almost algae free tank,saying that it still seems along way off.I did another 50 percent water change but i used my tap water then added some nitrate to top it up to 20ppm and the phos is showing 2ppm
however your not going to believe this but the last 5 days or so there has been a blue green algae outbreak,it seems like i'm having a baptism of fire where algae is concerned(i wonder what type of algae i'll get next,LOL)saying that i'm more than determined to beat it.i've read on this site and others that the cause of bga can be down to either low nitrates or not enough circulation in the tank which i don't understand because there is a spray bar in the tank which is mounted vertically with a good flow rate and the nitrate level is 20ppm.


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## hoppycalif

I'm going to guess that your test kits are not accurate. Unless you actually calilbrate a test kit for things like nitrates and phosphates, you can't be at all sure the reading you get means anything. That is the nice part about the EI fertilizing method. You don't need to bother testing for nitrate and phosphate with that method. Blue green algae generally starts growing when the nitrate level is too low and there is high light intensity.


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## jacko

Thanks hoppy for your input on the BGA problem,so do you think if it still continues to be a problem i should increase the amount of nitrate fertilization and see whether or not the BGA subsides,it's just that i don't want to over do it for the fishes sake,the test kits that i'm using are by API.


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## hoppycalif

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...zing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html
gives the recommended dosing for every size tank. If you follow that you should avoid any problems for the fish, and you will have adequate nitrate in the tank.


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## jacko

here's an update on the tank at the moment.i'm continuing EI dosing and the green hair algae is all but gone,but i've still got the BGA problem and it's as bad as ever,i've looked on the internet about it and there seems to be 2 methods of getting rid of it,a complete blackout for 4 days or treatment with 
erythromycin,but i've tried to get some in the uk but it can only be obtained by prescription so i've asked at my LFS and they recommend a product by eSHa called protalon 707 which deals with "all" algae including BGA.has anybody used this product and is it any good.i'm still adding more fast growing plants to the tank and everything seems to be growing very well.
Thanks again
mark.


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## MatPat

Most products that claim to be effective against algae also seem to kill plants. I would avoid algae products at all costs. A blackout is free so why would you want to pay for something like erythromycin or an algecide that may or may not work and may even kill your plants.

A 3 day blackout is usually sufficient to kill BGA! It should cause no harm to your plants since they are growing well. They survive 3 days in the mail quite often here in the US


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## krisw

jacko, erythromycin is the key incredient in Mardel Maracyn, an anti-bacterial medicine made by Aquarium Pharm. I imagine it's available in the U.K. (It's in every pet store in the states.) In anycase, I've had no problems with plants or fish, using it to clean up a BBA outbreak. You only need to use half of the recommended dosage to do the job. Most folks will tell you to continue treating the tank for a few days, but I've had luck treating for 1-2 days, and then doing a water change, making sure all of my dosing/CO2/lights are set correctly, and then going on from there algae-free.


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