# Black Earth topsoil



## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Just today my parents had bought about 10 bags of Black Earth topsoil. I plan on taking some of it so I can do a bottle test but on the bag it says that it contains loam and humus and I don't know if that's a good or bad thing to have in a NPT. Would this be a bad choice of soil for an el natural tank?


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Loam is soil composed of sand, silt, and clay in relatively even concentration... (wikipedia) Humus is organic material that gathers in any forest or place of vegetation, basically compost. (my brain) Both are great for NPT. Just make sure there aren't any fertilizers or additives and you are good. Sounds as if you have found the perfect soil. GL, HF!


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

If you have too much organic matter in a soil substrate you will grow many different kinds of algae.

Most people believe that low organic topsoil makes the best substrate, ideally after being soaked for a week or so to get rid of some of the organics.

Bill


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

A lot of organics will make your substrate go anaebobic too. I'm going to start a nano NPT in a few day... I found some black earth top soil too. Maybe we can compare notes.. I'm planning to soak it and skim off the wood bits. 
and i'll add gravel into the soil so the soil isn't so dense where it'll get anaerobic. And I'll just do .5" of soil as oppose to the recommended 1".


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Could you give me the ingredient breakdown of black earth topsoil anyone?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I just set up a 5G NPT..

I'm using Scott's premium topsoil
it's listed with composted forest material, peat, rice husk... I think it has clay in it too. There are black chunks that feels a lot like clay.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Just today my parents had bought about 10 bags of Black Earth topsoil. ... Would this be a bad choice of soil for an el natural tank?


Over the years, I've used Black Earth on a number of tanks and have no problem.


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Awesome! I wonder if this is the same stuff TuetonJon used. Either way it sounds as though I have a few options, not to sure about my stuff yet. (Turf King potting soil)


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Sorry it took me awhile to get back to this thread.

I definitely don't want the soil to go anaerobic on me. I'm currently waiting for some gravel that I ordered to come in and once it does, I'm going to do a bottle test. Are there any other types of soils that any of you would recommend? If so, what are the names of these soils?

Also, what exactly does one do when soaking the soil to get rid of any organics within it? Once I've gotten rid of all of the wood bits in it I would like to give this a try. Oh and will this type of soil change the color of the water? If it does, is that a bad thing?

Thanks again.


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Soils are all different, especially by geographic location so unless someone from your region responds it will be difficult to help you with soil. 

Less organic material and less peat are good. Perlite and Pumice are ok, but you will have to remove them as they float to the top.  A spongy mudlike texture seems to be the favorite on this forum.

Stay away from fertilizers or any chemicals (wetting agents, etc.), those are the basic rules.

To rid yourself of organics, put some of your soil in a 5 gallon bucket, fill it with water and after a few days (or as you wish) remove any floating debris. Different soils definately change the color of the water, mine did not change the water color at all, was very suprised by this. This is in no way a bad thing, most fish environments, especially South American, have tannins (brown color) that change the color of their water from decayed organics like peat.

Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Also, what exactly does one do when soaking the soil to get rid of any organics within it? Once I've gotten rid of all of the wood bits in it I would like to give this a try. Oh and will this type of soil change the color of the water? If it does, is that a bad thing?


I use Black Earth and never have to pre-soak it. As suggested in Ms. Walstad's book (page 137), I mixed the soil with dolomite lime. I also removed any wood bits found.

Over time, the tank water will become a bit yellowish due to humic substances (see page 16 and 61 of Ms. Walstad's book). You can add activated carbon to a filter to remove humic substances and therefore lighten the color.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I just got her book so I'll check out the pages you've posted. 

Where can I get dolomite lime? Should I add some crushed oyster shells into the soil to and if so, would the kind that can be given to birds be okay to use?

Also, is it alright to just leave the water a yellow-brown color? I don't have a problem with the water being that color and not only that, the kind of fish I have is a blackwater fish(a betta) so it shouldn't bother him. I'm assuming that the color won't affect the plants.

01krisp10, the info you gave me helped me a great deal.  Thank you.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> I just got her book so I'll check out the pages you've posted.


Congratulation! Buying her book (both paper and electronic versions) and spending the time to study it from cover to cover are by far my best investment in this hobby. Many thanks to Ms. Walstad for writing the book.

I got dolomite lime from a garden store.

Page 137 of the book does suggest oyster grit and crushed sea shells. But I never used them.

It is alright to leave the color as is. In fact, it is better for the tank's overall well being (see page 184 of Ms. Walstad's book).

One downside is that the color will reduce light intensity reaching plants. But that shouldn't be a problem unless the color becomes very dark. That happened to one of my tanks and so I applied activated carbon (Marineland's Black Diamond is much better than HBH's Aqua-Pure).


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> I just set up a 5G NPT..
> 
> I'm using Scott's premium topsoil
> it's listed with composted forest material, peat, rice husk... I think it has clay in it too. There are black chunks that feels a lot like clay.


Hi Mistergreen

I just bought a bag of Scott's Premium Topsoil for use in a new 20g long. I have some used Eco-Complete that I am planning on mixing with it.

What did you mix your's with and what was your ratio?

Did you bake it at 450° F before you used it?

Do you have any more info about using it?

Thanks

Left C


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

I just used Scotts Topsoil, because turfking had a huge issue with nitrite. Scotts had .125ppm ammonia for three days and cleared the morning of the third day. Everything is going great and its been about two weeks for my new tank. BTW, I sifted out all the large particles and added the fine remnants straight into the tank, no baking, no soaking, just perfect...

Bartoli, you are welcome! Glad I could help, just love these NPT's!


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

Sorry to ignite an old thread but my other option is to create a new one with the same tittle. I used a lot of this in my 90g tank. I mixed it with fine silica sand and about 3 cups of Caribbean live sand for aragonite. I toped it off with about 1" of 1mm silica top sand. The sample was 2-3mm rocks, but it doesn't always work out. According to Diana Walstad I've got a wood oil problem. I've added hob charcoal filtration, a bubbler. The tank gets cloudy with ammonia on day two and I do a large water change. Yep, every two days. So, what is my next step?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I never mixed anything in with the soil I used then but I did get a lot of ammonia and nitrites. For the first couple of days, I actually had no ammonia or nitrites at all but then they made an appearance. I had to remove my betta because of it. It took close to two weeks, give or take, for the nitrites and ammonia to go down to zero. I had done 25% water changes almost every day just to try to lower everything. I also added more floating plants like Duckweed and Water Lettuce. Aside from adding more plants and doing water changes, I don't think there is anything else you can do except wait it out, unfortunately.

Just to let you know of what happened to me with this soil, I ended up tearing down the tank so I could use a new soil. Everything was going good for the first 6-8 months but after that, plants didn't grow as well as they use to and no matter how much carbon or water changes I did, I couldn't get rid of the tannins in the water. Not only that but a lot of the plants started to show deficiencies and I had to keep dosing the tank with fertilizers just to keep the plants alive. When I drained the tank and started to remove the gravel(I reused it), the smell of H2S was just awful! It was so strong that it went through the entire house and all of the windows had to be opened just to air out that stench! Others who have used this same brand of soil had also experienced the same problems.

I don't know if you used a different brand(I used President's Choice) but I just wanted to give you a bit of a warning about what could happen. Now you could end up with nothing but good results with your set up and I hope you don't have to go through what I went through with this soil.

Good luck!


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

Mine is Circle H Farms Black Earth bought from Canadian tire. I'm thinking maybe a blackworm culture might be a good idea. Not sure about availability in my area. What other worms might help speed up compost of the soil and keep it good?


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Seeing that so many people here had to change water during the initial set up period, and yet I never had to. I wondered... could it be because the soil that I was using (Black Earth) was not fertilized in any way? Could it be because all my tanks started out with plenty of floating plants like duckweed and sometimes Water Hyacinth?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

bartoli said:


> Seeing that so many people here had to change water during the initial set up period, and yet I never had to. I wondered... could it be because the soil that I was using (Black Earth) was not fertilized in any way? Could it be because all my tanks started out with plenty of floating plants like duckweed and sometimes Water Hyacinth?


Hi Bartoli,

I don't think it has anything to do with the floating plants because while yes, at first, I didn't have many floaters in the tank but when the ammonia kept rising, I had put lots of hornwort, water lettuce and duckweed in the tank and it still took its time to cycle. What I found strange with the tank I had first set up with this soil was that with every other tank after that, ammonia and/or nitrites showed up the next day but with that very first tank, it didn't make an appearance until four days later. I never put my betta in there until that third day and then the fourth was when the ammonia went up to .25ppm. I'm wondering if it had anything to do with the filter? I had a fairly strong filter in the tank during the first three days but I had to shut it off when I put my betta in there because it was too strong for him.

What brand of soil did you use? The reason the stuff I used was total crap was because there was a lot of compost in it and if I had known that at the beginning, I would've never used it.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> What brand of soil did you use? The reason the stuff I used was total crap was because there was a lot of compost in it


Unfortunately I can't tell you for I didn't pay attention to the brand. What I cared about was that the soil was not fertilized. Everywhere I went looking for unfertilized soil, Black Earth was recommended to me. I was told Black Earth is a generic name meaning unfertilized soil. Thus, I am surprised that the soil that you used had a lot of compost. What led you to believe that the soil that you were using was indeed _just_ Black Earth and not Black Earth mixed in with something else?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

bartoli said:


> Seeing that so many people here had to change water during the initial set up period, and yet I never had to. I wondered... could it be because the soil that I was using (Black Earth) was not fertilized in any way? Could it be because all my tanks started out with plenty of floating plants like duckweed and sometimes Water Hyacinth?


I'm not surprised to hear that the same soil would work differently in one tank v. someone else's tank.

A healthy, robust colony of Water Hyacinths will suck up ammonia like there's no tomorrow. Having this _industrial water purifier _could definitely negate any water changes!

Some tanks require water changes during the setup period. Others (like yours) won't.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Some tanks require water changes during the setup period. Others (like yours) won't.


My thought was that if we could call out the specific issues requiring water change and identify some practices that address those issues, we can eliminate water change during the setup period.


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

One thing I can tell you about my soil is that my plants have picked right up from their algae saturated state (it looked like a salt water tank with weird growing green rocks) and are growing very fast. I'm seeing new full grown leaves produced in two days from Echinodorus Barthii v. "red melon". Also all my algae is dieing back. But the water is still ammonia saturated


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

bartoli said:


> Unfortunately I can't tell you for I didn't pay attention to the brand. What I cared about was that the soil was not fertilized. Everywhere I went looking for unfertilized soil, Black Earth was recommended to me. I was told Black Earth is a generic name meaning unfertilized soil. Thus, I am surprised that the soil that you used had a lot of compost. What led you to believe that the soil that you were using was indeed _just_ Black Earth and not Black Earth mixed in with something else?


Black earth soil wasn't my first choice for a soil. I had wanted Earth Gro because I've read about so many people using it with great success but I couldn't find it anywhere. We already had some Black Earth because it was being used for the gardens so I just used that instead. The reason I didn't think there was anything added to it was because nothing was stated on the bag. I did go to where it's sold and asked about it but they had absolutely no clue as to what I was talking about. It wasn't until that next year that I found out that the place where the soil comes from mixes it with compost. My father informed me of that. By then, the plants were showing signs of deficiencies(I had someone help me with dosing fertilizers) and that's when I decided to tear it down and start anew once I had more money for plants.

The soil I'm using now is just plain old dirt. No fertilizers, compost or anything else added to it. Just dirt that had the odd twig or leaf in it. When I had set up my betta's tank with this soil, I never had any ammonia at all but I did end up with some nitrites but they never got any higher then .25ppm. It took a week or less for that to drop to zero.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

baos said:


> One thing I can tell you about my soil is that my plants have picked right up from their algae saturated state (it looked like a salt water tank with weird growing green rocks) and are growing very fast. I'm seeing new full grown leaves produced in two days from Echinodorus Barthii v. "red melon". Also all my algae is dieing back. But the water is still ammonia saturated


ISTM your soil was rich in fertilizaton.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> The reason I didn't think there was anything added to it was because nothing was stated on the bag.


That is a point worth noting. When I was looking for soil, I skipped on those Black Earth that did not have an ingredient list.

The Black Earth that I ended up using had an ingredient list and I checked it to make sure that I was okay with the listed items.


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

bartoli said:


> ISTM your soil was rich in fertilizaton.


perhaps you are right. My tap water is also high in iron. After a day in the aquarium I don't test any. Should I just wait it out or do a teardown?


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

baos said:


> perhaps you are right. My tap water is also high in iron. After a day in the aquarium I don't test any. Should I just wait it out or do a teardown?


Have you tried adding floating plants? They may improve the situation well enough to continue with the current setting.


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## baos (Jul 3, 2009)

bartoli said:


> Have you tried adding floating plants? They may improve the situation well enough to continue with the current setting.


I have hornwort. It's growing ok, but the older growth looks half dead. I asked my fish store for a floating plant and they told me hornwort was fine. I told them I already had some. Recommend a different plant, maybe for the areal growth and I shall get it.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

baos said:


> I have hornwort. It's growing ok, but the older growth looks half dead. I asked my fish store for a floating plant and they told me hornwort was fine. I told them I already had some. Recommend a different plant, maybe for the areal growth and I shall get it.


I found that hornwort grows fastest when free floating right below the water surface.

My favorite floating plant is Water Hyacinth (the "industrial water purifier"). Pond plant stores have plenty. A small plant will do. If your tank does not have enough head room, consider lowering the water level to make room for the plant. When the tank parameter is okay again, you can remove the Water Hyacinth and restore the water level.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Baos,

Try looking around at some nurseries for some Water Lettuce. I find that's a great plant for soaking up nutrients and helping to prevent algae. I had added some Water Lettuce to my betta's tank last week and I'm already noticing a difference in the amount of hair algae that was in there. There's next to none now.

You may also want to consider getting some Duckweed too. Although it can be a pain to deal with once it starts to really grow, it's great during those initial set ups for removing ammonia and nitrites. 



bartoli said:


> That is a point worth noting. When I was looking for soil, I skipped on those Black Earth that did not have an ingredient list.
> 
> The Black Earth that I ended up using had an ingredient list and I checked it to make sure that I was okay with the listed items.


Whenever I think back to when I first set that tank up, I always kick myself for not looking for a different type of soil. Around here, the best place is Home Depot but at the time, they had the entire area where the soil is kept blocked off because they were doing some repairs so I couldn't check out what they had all. At least I learn something from this.


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> Whenever I think back to when I first set that tank up, I always kick myself for not looking for a different type of soil.


Regardless of the soil type, always check the ingredient list!


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## bartoli (May 8, 2006)

Red_Rose said:


> What brand of soil did you use?


Hi Red Rose,

I just went down to the storage room to take at look at the soil that I used. It is Premier Liteway Black Earth (by Premier Horticulture of Premier Tech):

http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/...ingMediaTM/LiteWay/LiteWay3-1/fLiteWay3-1.htm

The above page includes an ingredient list which listed only two items: Decomposed Black Peat Humus and Ash.

I have very good experience with that soil which I bought at Rona. I saved the left-over in its original bag. Some had stayed in the bag for a number of years and had no problem when used later for setting up another tank.


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