# glosso mountain



## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

i have a small (30*30*35cm) tank and im thinking of a small mountain of glosso , would like to ask how can i built the substrate to get a mountain shape. 
how much cf watts do i need for this kind of setup? 
i think im going to use a few rocks on the botom and then put some quartz gravel (2mm) and on top of everything a thin layer of aquasoil.
im going to use co2 tank with small defuser and not sure about the filteration department too ... 
can i use a small filter that goes on the inside of the tank or a canister filter is a must?

need pics or step by step procedure on how to create the "mountain"

my vision is the right mountain in the pic


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## Hanzo (Mar 9, 2004)

I was really fasinated by this one my self, and would love to make something like that! Sadly I have no clue how to :roll: My only guess would be cementing the rocks together in clay or something, then use javamose as a substrat for the Glosso. Would that work at all?


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## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

thanks hanzo, any other ideas how to create the "mountain"?


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

I don't know how they created that mountain, but I have a few ideas on how I would go about it:

Take rocks and substrate and slope them at a very sharp angle --perhaps twice as sharply as you see here. As you all know, the substrate tends to even out over time. So, while the plants are growing in, the slope you created will be gradually evening out. This is where the plants come in. To create such a slope, you need fast growing plants that will hold the substrate in place. Once these plants have grown in, the structure of the slope should stabilize. This is how Ricky got his "Hill" effect in last year's layout, I understand.

In this rockscape, the main plant on the slopes isn't Glossostigma, however. The peaks of the mountains are dominated by fluffy mats of an aquatic moss with some errant Glosso runners here and there. The Glossostigma is mostly restricted to the lower half of the peaks. I wonder if they play any role in stabilizing the mountain. Then again, perhaps the mountains are composed of only one or two pieces of rock with many interesting nooks and crannies to grow the moss in? 

Carlos


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm willing to bet on your second idea.

The substrate doesn't go that high. The moss is substrateless for the most part. Some of the glosso is using substrate as a substrate and other parts are using moss as a "substrate".


atleast, that is how I would do it.


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## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

what kind of moss ? is it java? thats the only moss i can get here. 
could i go with riccia instead? i guess it would be easier - but need more tips to do it please. 

what about clay under the gravel to hold the slope in its place?


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## tsunami (Jan 24, 2004)

Riccia would not provide any support. And it would be difficult to weigh down, furthermore. He probably used Java moss.

Carlos


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## plantella (Feb 5, 2004)

Hy there,

only a little information to the mountain tank:

The main plant on the top of the hill's are
HEMINATHUS CALLITRICHOIDES.

Down you can see the Glossostigma (bigger leaves)

Right and left there are a little bit Unkown Moss. Looks a little bit like "Christmas Moss".

You can see the details very good at the ADA Contest book 2004.
This is one of my personal favorite this year the 5th place.

Best regards,

Oliver Knott


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

Alright! so the book is now out!!!!....or did you get it when you were in japan? :-D


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I don't know how H. callitrichoides grows (deep, Glosso-like roots or not) but I do believe that there is a base that helps keep the plants in that beautiful tank growing looking like a mountain. This tank gives an idea how to place the substrate and the rocks to create a similar effect.

A year or so ago I thought about creating a very tall (2 ft.) "mountain" by gluing rocks together and putting the substrate in "pockets" all over the "mountain". I imagine one could connect the "pockets" and create a true mountain look.

Also I think that using plants with different leaf color and shape is a must for such a "mountain" because it will add to the wild, natural look. And of course the plants must have small leaves to add to the illusion of a tall mountain hill.

--Nikolay


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## pineapple (May 4, 2004)

That elusive Hemianthus callitrichoides which Oliver grows like a master gardener and yet I am finding hard to grow on the flat.... I imagine that the upper level must have some fine substrate in the niches, perhaps something a little bit sticky with laterite as a binder.

I think the key to the rock-scape is to have a carefully interlocking set of rocks in which the bedding planes, cleavage, and joints all run in the same direction. That will ensure it looks like a mountain - not like a rock. The rocks have to be carefully piled to conform to these linear patterns. The substrate would come last I would imagine.

If only Oliver could contribute to the Plant Finder description of Hemianthus callitrichoides with some hints as to how to grow this lovely plant well. 

Andrew Cribb


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## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

thanks , and one more qustion to oliver - where can i c the ADA Contest book 2004? 
and pineapple - i fopund that its easy to grow the H.C in a well lighted tank+co2+aquasoil 
here is a pic from about 2 months - two weeks after i planted it - starts to come up from the substrate









i hope ill get a nice "carpet" like oliver tank ...


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## plantella (Feb 5, 2004)

> Alright! so the book is now out!!!!....or did you get it when you were in japan?


Yes the book is now available and I bought me some in Japan...how much I can carry :lol:



> where can i c the ADA Contest book 2004?


Normaly you can order it direktly from Japan, please try to contact Mr.Hayakawa. The email adress you can find on the ADA website http://www.adana.co.jp/

One thing to the Hemianthus. I have the lucky chance that I can use so many Hemianthus pots I need. That's more easyer in contrast if you only have a few of this plant.

Best regards,

Oliver


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## pineapple (May 4, 2004)

Aquasoil looks interesting in that it presents a more rounded texture than Flourite does. The HC is working in Flourite, but I need to tone it down with some coarse silica sand. As Oliver said, I think having enough of the plant in the first place is one of the secrets to getting it to cover the substrate. Critical Mass costs a lot though.

Andrew Cribb


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

_Hemianthus callitrichoides_ does not require a substrate to survive. It will do just fine from 100% water column nutrients. Therefore, you can treat it like riccia or moss by securing it to rocks/wood/etc. I originally got the idea after seeing pictures of naturacquario.net aquarist having mats of this plant cascading from driftwood, not unlike lichen draping over decaying logs. The photos are no longer on the website but I am sure others will recall what I am talking about. 

Like many petite foreground plants, _H. callitrichoides_ is a NO3 lover. It won't stunt or die at low-moderate NO3 -- just extremely slow growth. But in the presence of high NO3/PO4, it takes off really quickly. Up your PO4 to drive NO3 uptake until the plant has gained decent mass. Then, you can decrease PO4/NO3 to control the growth of this plant. Of course, you'll need to keep light and CO2 at reasonable levels.

_*EDIT:* I digged through my archive and found the following photos. Since the owner no longer has it on his/her website and I am posting this from my own archive, please let me know if I should remove them._


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## pineapple (May 4, 2004)

cS, That's a helpful post indeed. Thank you. The photos are good hints.

Andrew Cribb


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## Mack (Jun 25, 2004)

*first pic*

I want the same one in my room.


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## freshreef (May 14, 2004)

:shock: i just went to add some kno3+po4 to my tank


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

CS,

When you say lot's of NO3+PO4 - how much do you mean???

Aviel.


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

Hehehe. I didn't want to quote specific numbers because they are highly variable and depend on light, CO2, sensitivity of fish, how much you are currently dosing, etc. But anyway, before I address that, let's get some background first so I don't sound like a lunatic. If you want to skip straight to the answer then read paragraph #5. Hehehe.

If you want a plant to put out more leaves, then you add NITROGEN. That's true for most (maybe all?) plants. Our goal then is to induce the plants to take up NO3. In our system, three things come to mind: light, CO2, and PO4.

(1) Light is usually fixed in our aquariums. It ultimately determines how fast NO3 is consumed. _Hemianthus callitrichoides_ requires a minimum of moderate light. More light of course will help accelerate its growth...up to a point.

(2) CO2 is usually also fixed in our aquariums (20-30 ppm). Given the difficulty of obtaining _H. callitrichoides_, if you have the plant, then it's probable that you are not a newbie; and unless you live under a rock, your CO2 is already near 30 ppm.  Adding more won't help the plants grow any faster, according to Thomas Barr's practical experience.

(3) That leaves us with PO4, a factor that we can vary quite easily. As I understand it, PO4 is necessary for the physical removal of NO3 from the water column. So with not enough PO4, the plants can't take up NO3 to grow, even if there's a bunch of it floating around. Therefore, add more PO4. And here we are, how much to add? Research has shown that under MAXIMUM light (full sun), the most NO3 that the plants can remove PER DAY is 5 ppm. So add 5 ppm NO3 along with ~0.5 ppm PO4 daily: no need to be uber accurate here.

So, do you know how much NO3 your tank is using daily right now? If it's near 5 ppm, then you are already at the maximum growth rate. If it's less, then you need to increase light, CO2, and/or PO4. As stated above, most of us have light and CO2 where we wanted so PO4 is your only choice. But UNDERSTAND that light and CO2 ultimately determine how fast your plants grow.

---

*DISCLAIMER: There are repercussions that can result from adding so much macros.*

(1) Increasing PO4 will only drive the physical uptake of NO3 into the plant tissue. You must provide adequate K and traces as well for the plants to convert this NO3 into vegetative growth.

(2) Etc.

---

I hope that was thorough enough. Please correct any mistake and omission.


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## aviel (Sep 12, 2004)

CS,

Most of us don't have full sun as the source of light, so I guess most of us don't have 5 PPM NO3 consumption like your theory suggests. So what's your algorithm? To dose every day 0.5 ppm PO4 such as to make sure that PO4 doesn't limit NO3 uptake? Or to see how much NO3 is consumed and then divided by 10 for the PO4 uptake? 

What's the suggested algorithm?

Or better - What's your NO3/PO4 level and daily uptake ??

Aviel.


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## cS (Jan 27, 2004)

It's not my theory. I am just reiterating what Thomas Barr had written elsewhere.  I can't find the thread in which he referenced the actual numerical data.

The minimum light required to uptake 5 ppm of NO3 is NOT full sun. That's just what the study was conducted at. So it is entirely possible for many of today's high light setups to drive such maximum uptakes. How much light is that? I have no earthly idea.  I do not use test kits so I cannot accurately tell you how much NO3 my tank uses per day. I can however tell you how much I add per week. In my high light 20G housing the _Hemianthus callitrichoides_, I add a total of ~28 ppm NO3 weekly ==> ~4 ppm NO3 per day. I also add ~3-4 ppm PO4 weekly (a little higher than the 10/1/10 NPK ratio, but I want to make sure that all that NO3 is being used because not all of your added PO4 will be usable by plants). Without knowing the details of your setup, I would be hard press to recommend a specific routine for you.

Would you tell me more about your tank please: size, light, etc.? Do you use test kits?


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