# NTD - pleistophora hyphessobryconis



## Shellcase (Oct 11, 2009)

Hi all,
My apologies for not making proper introductions but I am in a spot of bother so to speak.
Call it what you want, Neon Tetra Disease, pleistophora hyphessobryconis or simply NTD, I have a confirmed outbreak of Neon Tetra Disease in my planted setup – no question about the diagnosis whatsoever. I lost 36 Cardinal Tetras in a matter of three days.
While most literature suggest that the illness is not curable due to it’s rapid rate of spread and mortality rate, this is at this time not my biggest concern. My concern is simply that most literature seems to suggest that the surviving cardinals be removed as they were able to build up a resistance against the disease but are still carriers of the disease AND the infected tank be sterilized.
Now then, with a heavily planted tank, the process and cost of sterilisation is unthinkable. What do I do – any experience on this disease in a planted tank?
Thanks so much.


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

The only thing I've ever heard of working is to simply cull the ones showing signs of NTS. 
Frankly, hobbyists blow fish disease way out of proportion. When I worked fish-retail we would simply get batches of neons/cardinals that got sick. We never ever EVER sterilized the tanks they were in (no store does FYI!) It is isolated incidents in a batch of fish- not a plague to all fish forever.

I'd definitely suggest QTing any new fish, especially delicate fish like neons and cardinals. Then you can cull the sick ones there and not your main tank.

Also, sterilizing a tank is a huge no-no. You'll start anew with your bacteria colonies and have to re-cycle the tank. You'll lose more fish in that process than just culling. 

HTHs
GL!


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Once it is in there and you do not want to toss the plants and sterilize the tank you really do not have much in the way of options.

Treat the tank as contaminated. 
NEVER use the same equipment (nets, gravel vacs... anything) on other tanks. 
NEVER move fish or anything else out of this tank and add them to another tank. 
Keep only resistant fish in this tank. (mostly non- Tetras). 
NEVER share plants out of this tank among your own tanks or with other aquarists. 

The other option is to throw away all the things that cannot be sterilized (Plants, snails, shrimp...), and sterilize everything. Start all over.


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

Wow, that is exactly what I would never do! LOL.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

First - :welcome: Glad you are here.

Now to the problem at hand... I've had fish for over 30 years. I've always kept cardinals or neons. I've lost entire purchases before. I've NEVER sterilized my tanks. I've just replaced the cardinals or neons. I must have about 30 or so in my tank right now. They are from different batches. Some are over 3 years old. If the disease were as bad as what you say then it would conceivably wipe out the entire population of cardinals and neons very quickly. Just think about it - no stores sterilize. Old and new stock are mixed and brought home with each new purchase. Nets go from tank to tank in many fish stores. I've not heard of hobbyists sterilizing until this post. Plants are shared. It can't be that bad. It just isn't logical. How would they have ever survived in the wild? No sterilization there...


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

Ditto on the welcome! 



Tex Gal said:


> How would they have ever survived in the wild? No sterilization there...


Very good point!


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## Shellcase (Oct 11, 2009)

Thank you for the warm welcome Tex Gal and others.
@ Six & Tex Gal, can you honestly say that your advice is based on actual experience *WITH NTD*?
@ Diana K, it would appear that you have first hand experience with this disease?
There seems to be varying opinions on the effects and severity of NTD but belive me, to see Cardinals drop dead by the dozen makes one explore all possible avenues - from photo material I have confirmed NDT and not FTD.
As far as the "population wipe out" theory is concerned, I do not think it is relevant as the Amazon can for numerous logical reasons not be compared with the confined aquarium environment.


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

Six said:


> . When I worked fish-retail we would simply get batches of neons/cardinals that got sick. We never ever EVER sterilized the tanks they were in (no store does FYI!) It is isolated incidents in a batch of fish- not a plague to all fish forever.


Yes, I've delt with this disease quite a bit.

The fish you are buying are from the Amazon River- almost all cards and neons are wild caught. They do not live in sterile conditions and do very well, actually a good deal better, in a natural set up. They just get NTD from sources unknown (go ahead and google it, there is no confirmation as to why, how, etc particular batches get this sporazoan).

You can certainly treat an aquarium as a sterile environment and try to kill anything that could hurt the fish- but that is going to be stressful on the fish and really quite unnecessary. It's a little "old school" and stone age to sterilize tanks (unless they are QT tanks or those with serious diseases like TB).

Do whatever you want, but just QTing and culling is going to cost you a lot less time, effort, frustration and fish lives in the long run!


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## Shellcase (Oct 11, 2009)

Six said:


> Do whatever you want...


No Sir, it is exactly for that reason that I seek advice from experienced users. Belive me, I have no desire to sterilise the tank but put yourself in my shoes for a moment, the web contains loads of contradictory information on the topic, amongst 3 members replying to may distress call on this forum there are two opposite opinions. Where does that leave a newbie who simply wants to do what is best and not "what I want" or think is best. Is that not exactly for that reason that forums such as this is in existence?

What am I missing - I am certainly no closer to a conclusive answer?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I'd like to know how did you find that the fish have exactly Pleistophora.

I agree with the suggestion to not sterilize the tank. If you are serious about getting rid of the disease you should just replace the entire tank and all the equipment. Anything that came in contact with that tank has to be thrown away. Maybe you had your hand in the tank and then held the fish food container? Throw the container away. Water change hose, bucket, tweezers, scissors... Or actually sterilize everything with steam and pressure  

As you see if you go down that route things start to get pretty crazy. I'm pretty sure very few people go to such extremes. 

--Nikolay


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Shellcase - I'm not sure how you will come to any conclusion. Is there some secret number of opinions that will constitute an acceptable sampling to you? We have replied with our opinions based on our experience. Just as you have decided what disease your fish have. You just have to do the best you can. Even if it were possible to autoclave every piece of equipment you have, there is no guarantee that the next cardinal or neon hasn't been in contact with another and become a carrier, (as you put it). This seems to me to be a loosing proposition. So then is the only answer not to keep cardinals or neons? Well ok.. what then about the next disease, what about fish TB...

I think this kind of thinking could really turn you off from the hobby. The glass can really be half full instead of half empty. It's not as bad as all that.

Good luck with your decision.


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## Shellcase (Oct 11, 2009)

niko said:


> I'd like to know how did you find that the fish have exactly Pleistophora.


Very valid question Nikolay.

Firstly I did a visual comparison on images of confirmed cases but being aware of the so called "False Neon Disease" I did a biopsy and microscopically verified the effect of the infection on muscle tissue. It was the tissue just ahead of the dorsal fin which showed the definitive symptoms.

Hope I was able to satisfactorily answer your question?



Tex Gal said:


> Good luck with your decision.


Thank you Tex Gal.

Unless further info presents itself I will buy a new batch, QT them and introduce a few into the "infected" tank. Using this strategy I will be able to verify if the "once contaminated, always contaminated" theory and hopefully come up with some factual conclusion.

@ All - Thanks for your assistance thus far.


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## Six (May 29, 2006)

No, if one batch of fish comes into a store and has fish that are getting sick NTD you cull the fish that show the disease. Yes, you can indeed lose an entire batch of cardinals or neons to NTD. There is NO CURE except to cull the fish that have it and hope the others do not already have it. 
Regardless of how many die or live in the batch you specifically got, next time you buy fish, QT them. Period. You're obviously the type of person to worry about small things and to take this preventative measure will save you a lot of wonder. 
I don't know where you got "once contaminated, always contaminated"... if the fish is has NTD, it dies. The tank does not get contaminated. If this were true, the fish would not exist in captivity or cost a lot more than $1/ea. As I said, no store sterilizes their tanks and plenty of people keep fish they got from stores that had NTD in their systems.
As I said, fish coming in from the wild usually get it (thus my reference to working in a retail store). I have never heard of a fish that has been in captivity for long ever getting true NTD. Bacterial infections (what you're calling FNTD), sure. That stems from poor care- but NTD does not. They come into the hobby with it.

Frankly, I think you already knew what you wanted to do. The information on the web is contradictory, sure, because it's opinion. If you pooled all the real experiences and results instead of taking a random small sample of information you'd get what me and tex are talking about. We;ve just been in the hobby long enough to know this. I figured you came the forum to hear that. If you're not sure who to listen to you can always check their profile and see their experience and actual involvement in the hobby. That's usually a good sign of who to listen to.

GL


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