# Fish trade



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

I have been thinking about this over the years and never came to a conclusion.Some may find it a bit exaggerated,some may find it stupid while others may have thought about it before but their excitement about the hobby covered any inhibitions they had.I'm involved indirectly in fish trade and to be honest I don't think this is ethical.too many fishes are sent to death sentence because people find colourful fish to be exciting.Let's face it,less than 1% of fish keepers knows how to care for their fish.I believe that most members in this forum know how to keep fish right but remember,this is just one forum.All of us even only as hobbyists contribute to this situation.Have you ever thought about this as I have?or is it just me?I know I will never stop buying fish from petshops but the least I can realise that this is not correct.The last ten years I buy fish every 3-4 years after my fishes died from age,decent mistakes of me or if I decide to change my setup.This is at least one step forward.Your opinions please.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I agree with you. After working in several pet shops and trying to teach customers basic fish keeping needs and answering their questions I have come to the same conclusion: the majority of people aren't capable of keeping fish healthy and simply don't care about the well being of their pet fish. Most people have a throw-away attitude about fish. 

After a few months I couldn't handle knowingly selling hundreds of fish to stupid people who treated the fish as decorative objects and quit working at the pet shop.

I don't know what can be done about this in the grand scheme of things since there are no laws to prevent people from abusing fish like there are for dogs and cats.

I think the only thing that we can do as hobbyists is to treat the fish we buy well, and try breed them so our impact is minimized.


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Without going into extensive details, remember that aquarium fish serve as ambassadors to their wild kin. Without keeping fish and animals in captivity, many wild populations would be disregarded.

The amount of people that care and are proactive about fish and keeping them have achieved much more than I think you know. There are species maintenance programs for endangered goodieds from Mexico as well as care and interest about damning in rivers that hold rare species (such as those being built in China and South America). If we didn't have captive animals, as pets or in zoos, no one would see and therefore learn to care about them and want to help them. Not to mention want to change their lives in order to better strike a balance between us and nature- fish keeping can certainly do all that.

_There are some fish who give their lives to the cause._

I used to feel the same way you are. I worked fish retail for 4 years and became fed up with a lot of the customers who just thought fish tanks were "moving pictures", not a responsibility. But I became more involved in the proactive part of the hobby and found myself to feel much better. I'm going to suggest that you do the same. Help others learn about the fish and get them to care. Join a club, go to meetings, speak on a topic. That's part of the reason you joined the forum, isnt it?


----------



## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

Six: Bravo! Well said.


----------



## gibmaker (Jan 3, 2007)

I agree the majority of people do not know the basics. They get excited when they see something colorful and attempt to care for it without knowing anything about it, which usually leads to death.
Now if we could just stop people from selling arrowanas and red tail catfish to people with 55 gal tanks.
There are so many fish in the hobby that I think you shouldn't even be able to sell or buy, unless you have a 5,000 gal aquarium. It saddens me to see fish that are knowingly going to live a horrible life and die horribly as well.


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Well, that also comes down to educating the people that sell the fish. We all know pet stores are entry level positions for high school students and those without formal educations (degrees). Trying to get employees involved in clubs is a great idea in my opinion and it helps get more customers into a club and therefore more educated on the fish. 

I have to say though, it's a double edged sword for LFS workers. They can join the club, but how many times have you or someone you know ranted about a specific store? 
"Those people gave me bad information!" 
"That store has so many dead fish, I'm never going back."

Why on earth would someone want to put themselves in that position? To deal with that from angry customers on your off time in a club would be horrible. Considering there are instances in all retail stores where things just don't go well- someone calls off and youre short handed = the fish that die (there always are some) don't get pulled out of tanks and customers judge the store on that single day... it's not really fair. This is why so many people like buying online, they can't see the stuff that is going wrong and therefore think it's a great place. But that's a whole other story...

Anyways, educating people is how to fix the problems you guys are bringing up. Perhaps start a club in your area and try to get members from LFS, employees and customers. It's a lot of work- I'm on the board of my club and it's not easy- but it's worth the effort.


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

I see your point and it makes sence but let me think otherwise and the reason I keep thinking this way is that the aquarium trade makes more money from ignorant customers rather than educated ones.The ignorant one will buy air pumps,airstones,gravel cleaners,glass scrapers,plastic plants,algae treatments,resins to lower phosphate and nitrate and lots more.Have you considered why there is no commercialy available macronutrient supplement in the market?First of all is dangerous for the ignorant and second it will prevent the companies from selling all those crap fertilizers they offer.In my opinion there will be no such supplement in the market for at least ten more years.Don't tell me about Seachem cause if seachem was manufacturing air pumps and all those other crap it would risk a lot when launching a macronutrient supplement.When the most 'guilty' are huge companies such as tetra,sera and JBL you should not excpect the LFS owner to tell the truth.Go tell a marine biologist who works on one of those companies that you add nitrates to your tank and I bet he will tell you that your nuts.The fact is that he knows your not nuts at all!I had asked someone that question and that was the answear I got.The problem is that if you are in the aquarium trade and want to be competitive you must lie,and that sucks!!


----------



## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Is the glass half full or half empty? There's a learning curve to everything. This hobby has come a long way. I personally have come a long way. It's taken people, like the members here, to educate me. Change doesn't occur over night. I appreciate all the efforts of these people. We can change the world, but it happens one person at a time. ... and as Six pointed out there have been many positive things that have come from it. For me the glass is half full!


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

Anafranil said:


> I see your point and it makes sence but let me think otherwise and the reason I keep thinking this way is that the aquarium trade makes more money from ignorant customers rather than educated ones.


sure, sometimes. also remember that not all newbs listen to lfs or anything anyone else says. sometimes people buy what they want regardless.


> The ignorant one will buy air pumps,airstones,gravel cleaners,glass scrapers,plastic plants,algae treatments,resins to lower phosphate and nitrate and lots more.


wait a sec, I buy that stuff. fish breeders use airpumps, and fake plants all the time. those aren't all useless products, they all have some application. you can have different types of aquariums, not all need to be planted display tanks like those on APC.



> Have you considered why there is no commercialy available macronutrient supplement in the market? First of all is dangerous for the ignorant...


stores carry what sells. remember most stores HAVE TO cater to newbs and newbs dont buy test kits usually, nor do they buy anything difficult to use. to get people in the hobby you have to sell what sells. 
Also, if stores didnt sell items that were dangerous, they would not be allowed to sell antibiotics. Just do a google search on antibiotics and how using meds willy-nilly and dumping them into groundwater sources/sewage can really effect how effective those meds are... bacteria build resistance very quickly- fish meds are not just used for fish.



> and second it will prevent the companies from selling all those crap fertilizers they offer.


Not all ferts are crap, some are good to use in addition to dry ferts or for other applications.



> In my opinion there will be no such supplement in the market for at least ten more years.Don't tell me about Seachem cause if seachem was manufacturing air pumps and all those other crap it would risk a lot when launching a macronutrient supplement.


I've bought macronutrients online, there are many sites who sell them- are you talking about lfs only??



> When the most 'guilty' are huge companies such as tetra,sera and JBL you should not excpect the LFS owner to tell the truth.Go tell a marine biologist who works on one of those companies that you add nitrates to your tank and I bet he will tell you that your nuts.The fact is that he knows your not nuts at all!I had asked someone that question and that was the answear I got.The problem is that if you are in the aquarium trade and want to be competitive you must lie,and that sucks!!


I don't know if I follow this at all. Sure some companies have bad products. JBJ fixtures used to pretty much explode back in the day. 
Remember that people at fish stores cannot read your mind as to what you're asking. if you ask for a fert they are likely to "sell" you the one everyone else buys. are you saying they sell you the most expensive item?

this conversation turned into a debate about dry goods- I thought we were talking about live animals.... either way, those are my experiences. If you dwell on the negative, you're going to be unhappy regardless.

I agree- half full.


----------



## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway I think you understood my point of view,I will soon post another thread about the macros and their availability,and please let me know what you think.I'll try to see things from the positive point of view and let you know what happened after some time..I still don't like air pumps though..


----------



## Bettatail (Jan 14, 2009)

```
Six Re: Fish trade

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without going into extensive details, remember that aquarium fish serve as ambassadors to their wild kin. Without keeping fish and animals in captivity, many wild populations would be disregarded.

The amount of people that care and are proactive about fish and keeping them have achieved much more than I think you know. There are species maintenance programs for endangered goodieds from Mexico as well as care and interest about damning in rivers that hold rare species (such as those being built in China and South America). If we didn't have captive animals, as pets or in zoos, no one would see and therefore learn to care about them and want to help them. Not to mention want to change their lives in order to better strike a balance between us and nature- fish keeping can certainly do all that.

There are some fish who give their lives to the cause.

I used to feel the same way you are. I worked fish retail for 4 years and became fed up with a lot of the customers who just thought fish tanks were "moving pictures", not a responsibility. But I became more involved in the proactive part of the hobby and found myself to feel much better. I'm going to suggest that you do the same. Help others learn about the fish and get them to care. Join a club, go to meetings, speak on a topic. That's part of the reason you joined the forum, isnt it?
```
(roseline shark? endangered by hobbyists? 
and how about marine species for marine aquarium keeper?)

I agree, Six, more people get into the hobby means more awareness of the wildlife conservation. But the best way to preserve the nature and species is to setup nature reservations, breeding programs by hobbyists or by commercial breeders are not quit enough, and what hobbyists do is not a DUTY but meanly out of their PENCHANT, and these programs are bias, selective, and commecialized(fish farms in Malaysia do a terrific job on preserving those demanding aquarium species, bias, but at least some endangered species could be saved from the nature habitats being destroyed by human activities or depleted through wild-caught for aqua trade--roseline shark). There are other species not as colorful as the ones we see in aquariums, they will disappear before someone pay attention to them. As a hobbyist myself, I understand my limit, and the contribution I can do to preserve the nature species is to support those who make wildlife conversation as their duty, they are hobbyists just like us or not hobbyists. they have my gratitude.
--try to do my best to keep my fish live longer, or breed them, I am just a hobbyist, my penchant is my duty. 
Semper Fi


----------



## Six (May 29, 2006)

I agree, saving only the pretty ones will get us no where with my previous reasoning- but validating the life of an ugly fish through admiration for it in a captive setting first is a start. 

Regardless, people have to SEE a fish to care if it lives- in the wild or captivity.

Sure, we overdid it with galaxy rasbora and roselines, but that's not to say there aren't good reasons now to protect the areas they live. I agree whole heartedly that protecting the areas fish live is the best way to protect fish- but you cannot protect all river ways, some have to be used especially in developing countries. If people do not know the fish, something they can use to sell/breed/eat exist they won't protect the areas. So which comes first? Protecting all areas as a premtive measure? Or figuring out which fish/animals need it the most and doing it then?


----------



## Bettatail (Jan 14, 2009)

I am not a nature conservation expert, I am just a hobbyist.

The fish trade and its extensions- commercial breeding programs for hobbyists is bias, and selective, but I am not in the position of rejecting it. It is just not enough to protect and reserve the nature fish species. let's leave the jobs to experts, that is why I said I support them.

People try to preserve the nature do it as their duty, hobbyists preserve the nature(for certain species) because their penchant; 
People try to preserve the nature raise fish without manipulating their identities, hobbyists raise fish selectively(albino? parrot? flowerhorn?);
people try to preserve the nature provide captive fish an enviroment as close as their origin, hobbyists raise fish with no intention to release them back to their natural origin.
people try to preserve the nature treat all fish the same, hobbyists have too much like or dislike toward certain species on their appearances or their behaviors.


----------

