# Best way to lower my PH



## matlyn (Aug 16, 2006)

I want to lower my PH to better fit many of the tetra species that I would like to keep. Current PH is 8.2 and would like to see it in the range of 7.0 - 7.5. I was told to purchase distilled water and use that for future water changes as the easiest method vs trying to set up a RO unit. I also read in the forums here that:

1) The distilled has no buffering capacity so having a tank full of this can put you at risk for a large PH swing down the road.

2) My 'hard well water' has a high total alkalinity/buffering capacity (mine is 180 on the dip test strip) so adding distilled to the tank won't work as it will simply revert to the original 8.2 of the well water.

My thoughts are to lower the buffering capacity first in the tank and then add the 7.0 distilled. Is that right? If so, what is the best way to lower the total alk and how low do I go? Once PH is where I want it, i should then raise the buffering capacity to 'hold' it there?

I looked at product called Proper PH 7.0 in the store but it said not to use this on a planted tank as it was a phosphate buffer. Not sure what that means.

Any advice is helpful. My tank/water stats are in my profile.

This is my first post so go easy on the new guy


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## John P. (Nov 24, 2004)

Inject CO2, add peat, etc.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Seachem Acid Buffer. The Dry Powder. Works great. 

For more details, I would ask Rusty in the Seachem Forum. Let him know that you have well water and the rest of your info. He will let you know if you should do something else. 

Of course, any minute now, one of the wonderful knowledgeable gentlemen and or ladies with massive personal experience will probably have many good alternative suggestions. 

By the way, welcome aboard. Dive on in the water is fine. 

And if any of them speak PhD biology chemistry language and you need a better explanation, don't be shy to ask them to use common american english if they get too detailed. 

I like Rusty because he has always been reliable, trustworthy and easy to understand and implement his suggestions.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

You have high pH water because it is high in KH, meaning it is alkaline. It probably is high in carbonates, causing the high KH. If you dilute it 50-50 with RO or distilled water that will drop the KH in half, and the pH will drop as a result. Or, if you replace 75% of the well water with RO/distilled water, that will drop the KH to 1/4 of what it was, and the pH will, as a result drop more. I suggest if you do this, do it a bit at a time to avoid affecting any fish you have - drain off half of the water for example, then add back 10%, wait an hour, add another 10%, etc. until the tank is full again.

Alternatively, you can use pressurized CO2, which drops the pH without affecting the KH.

I also suggest tossing the test strips and buying a good GH/KH test kit, for example the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit, for much better accuracy.

Don't add any form of buffer, acid or otherwise. Hardly ever is that a good idea.


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## K20A2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Is all well water generally hard, with a high PH, or does it vary by geographic location?


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Don't add any form of buffer, acid or otherwise. Hardly ever is that a good idea.


Why?

I know that for my tank with the Seachem Onyx gravel, Rusty told me that I should not put too much in, but that was because the gravel would just continuously raise everything.

But if you just add it while changing or adding water, why would Acid Buffer be bad for the aquarium?

Matlyn, 
you will continuously learn something every time you come here at APC!

These guys and ladies are amazing.

And if you ever meet Tom Barr, he is REALLY smart, but has the personality of a cat that has had his fur rubbed or petted in the wrong direction. 
(ha, ha, ha. I hope he has a sense of humor. Or I may incur wrath of the aquarium gods!!!)


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

Ya I wouldnt add any bufffers. It is only a temp fix. I would even go so far to say find some fish you like that like that PH. But on the other hand my ph in my tanks stays about 6.8 or so and even though that is a little low for my GF they have acculamated and maybe the fish you want can do that too?


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

Why don't you buy some of the tetras you want to keep from your local fish store and see how they do, before you start artificially altering the tank's water chemistry? Kinda' like putting the cart before the horse. You might be pleasantly surprised. Good luck.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The best reason for not adding buffers to the tank water is that pH is rarely a problem for fish. But high total dissolved solids or rapidly changing TDS is a problem. And, everything you add to the tank, as a chemical, is adding more TDS. Another reason is that buffers make it virtually impossible to determine even roughly how much CO2 you have in the water. Another reason is that an acid buffer, for example, does not stabilize the pH. It only lowers it, so any form of added alkalinity will raise the pH right back up again. It is just good aquarium policy to add only what is needed to a tank, and that generally is fertilizers, which the plants consume, and calcium and magnesium for GH (if GH is extremely low, and there is some reason to want it higher). Adding other chemicals just complicates everything else much too much. (How do you handle a big water change, for example?)


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> (How do you handle a big water change, for example?)


Last year, I would figure out how much Acid Buffer to add to each Gallon I measured. Or I would use a 5 gallon bucket and add Acid Buffer until the pH was 7.0. Now that I learned that hard water is GOOD for my plants and that fish adapt (since the local fish stores just use the same pH as the tap), I don't. 
By the way, I have some Epsom Salts which I have never used yet in either my outdoor garden or in my tanks yet. In what form or Brand name would I find calcium and magnesium in Home Depot?


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Are you planning on using CO2? Keep in mind, if you are, your final pH will be around 7 - 7.1, if your starting pH is 8.2. I also have well water, kh of 9-10, pH out of the tap is 8. The tanks run around 6.9-7.0 because of the CO2. I don't have issues, except for a few plants which prefer softer, acidic water.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If you want to breed tetras you might want water with a low general & low carbonate hardness (which will result in a low pH). If you just want to keep tetras, you'll almost certainly be fine with whatever water you have. Acclimatize them gradually to your tank and you will probably have few issues. I neons, rummynose, and congoes in GH 20, KH 9 water with no trouble at all.

It is almost always a bad idea to use buffers to adjust pH. Anytime you add more junk, you increase the total dissolved solid load of the water. While the pH might be lower, the total osmotic load that the fish have to deal with goes up (the water becomes more brackish, or salty).

If you really must have low pH, then I'd recommend either an RO unit or distilled water.


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## matlyn (Aug 16, 2006)

*Followup*

I just want to state for the record that I have been on many different SIG forums in the past for various activities, but this is one of the best out there. I am very impressed at the level of response that I have gotten to my question. Thank you all for your input!

Just to post my tank stats and reply to some of the member suggestions so far:

46G Bowfront - Planted
Well Water - Change 2.5 gal 3 times/week for total of 16%/week
PH 8.2 (running PinPoint realtime monitor)
Total Alk 180
Total Hardness 50
Temp 78-82
CO2 Injection - yeast method w/powerhead (Turbo CO2 Bio System)
13 Species of plants - All doing well so far
Malaysian Driftwood
96 watt Coralife Freshwater lighting unit
Tank Setup 07/15/06

JOHN P - I have heard that peat can soften the water and lower the pH but I also heard you can end up with brown water. Is that true?

JIMBO205 - I saw this same Acid Buffer and thought of using that. Doesn't sound like you have much support from the other post in adding things to the water. Thanks for the post and the words of encouragement. I agree, these folks in this forum are amazing. I look forward to learning much more.

HOPPYCALIF - Buying a good test kit vs the dip strips sounds like one of the first things I need to do. I will take that advice. Also, sounds like the distilled is also worth a try.

ERIK LOZA - I currently have a rainbow and 2 oto's which have been there from the start. They are fine. I tried adding both neons and cardinal tetras with a 100% mortality rate within days. Just added 6 glowlights this past week and they seem to be doing quite well. I have run a marine tank for years so I know about bio loads, acclimation, feeding, etc. Just don't want to kill any more fish without first knowing I have done what I can for proper water conditions in my new fresh water tank. Seems that the marine tank is easier then a planted freshwater!

BERT - As per my profile, I am already using yeast CO2 injection. and the pH is stable at about 8.2.

Thanks all for the help. Always interested in others thoughts as well.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> I tried adding both neons and cardinal tetras with a 100% mortality rate within days.


 Ouch!



> Seems that the marine tank is easier then a planted freshwater!


 No way, really?!

Doesn't that take $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ?


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## Telperion (Jun 12, 2006)

Jimbo205 said:


> Ouch!
> 
> No way, really?!
> 
> Doesn't that take $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ?


u'r kidding right??

:twitch: :hand: :rofl:

i don't want to continue to think about how much my two planted tanks have cost me so far.... :lalala:

lmao!!


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## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

We have all had that sort of thing happen with Cardinals at one point or another. I just lost a dozen kerri tetras over the course of a week in my big tank. They looked good in the store and then just fell apart in time. Sad, but it just happens. The message, as far as I am concerned, is that some fish just won't like the water chemistry of this or that tank. In my case, the big tank is healthy, the rest of the fish are healthy, the plants are thriving. So, I just don't put Emperors in there again. 

I also like Cardinals and have a few hardy ones in that tank, but also lost the better part of a dozen before I got there. So, if I want to keep them, I need to do a tank with RO water, it seems. At this point, it's not worth it for me, so there's the answer to the problem. It just is what it is, sometimes.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Telperion, I don't have a ton of money but luckily have been able to do okay with the planted aquariums. 

I have heard that Marine tanks cost A LOT to start up, even for a small tank. Yes/No?


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm sick and tired of all the blasting of Seachem Acid Buffer. It's mainly sodium bisulfate, and it lowers KH by converting CO3 to CO2. It does increase sulfate. The net result is it lowers KH and increases sulfate (which usually isn't that big of a concern). It isn't a buffer at all.

For the original poster who does not want to buy distilled water or use RO water, this is a very viable alternative.

The funny thing is, this has been explained over and over and over and over again in threads by the same people who continue to put down the product with misleading information ("don't use buffer," etc.)


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## Angie (Dec 4, 2005)

As stated yes they work but it is only a temp fix.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

A high KH is a problem largely because of the TDS being high. Adding another chemical just increases the TDS even higher. Obviously, everyone is free to use whatever products or techniques they wish, and free to follow whatever advice they wish. All we are doing is offering our opinions, which is what people are asking for here. As I have said before, there are several ways to have a successful planted aquarium. The goal for each of us is to use one of the ways we are comfortable with.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> I like Rusty because he has always been reliable, trustworthy and easy to understand and implement his suggestions.





> I'm sick and tired of all the blasting of Seachem Acid Buffer. It's mainly sodium bisulfate, and it lowers KH by converting CO3 to CO2. It does increase sulfate. The net result is it lowers KH and increases sulfate (which usually isn't that big of a concern). It isn't a buffer at all.





> Of course, any minute now, one of the wonderful knowledgeable gentlemen and or ladies with massive personal experience will probably have many good alternative suggestions.





> I just want to state for the record that I have been on many different SIG forums in the past for various activities, but this is one of the best out there. I am very impressed at the level of response that I have gotten to my question. Thank you all for your input!


Matlyn, it doesn't get any better than this! I LOVE THIS PLACE!!!

Salt gets a big bear hug for coming to the rescue! :grouphug:


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Lowering pH can be done. There are plenty of reasonable ways to do it. You can add pure HCl if you want. The vast majority (not all) of pH "adjusters" do horrible things to planted tanks. I think an important point is to step back and ask why you want to. If your goal is to keep fish that "prefer" a low pH, then I'd strongly recommend trying them in whatever water comes out of the tap. Even discus often do perfectly fine in crazy water. I'd use a bit of caution with wild-caught fish though. In the long run, most fish will do just fine in most types of water, provided their other needs are met. I'd guess that it's just as likely that you'll do more harm than good by having a dosing mix-up with a pH adjuster someday.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should......... or that you even need to. Simple is your friend, especially when messing with basic water chemistry.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Matlyn, when testing pH some would say that Green or Blue is good but Yellow is bad. 

I guarantee you that someone will fill in the blanks with MUCH MORE detail. 

Matlyn, right now do your fishies look happy? That is what counts. At some point you want to burn the stupid books that told us stupid things that we believed for umpteen years, until we learned ...... yeah, the fish and plants do just fine with the tap water. Just add Seachem Prime when changing the water. And if you get sick of testing pH. Seachem has this really cool pH Detector that lasts for 3-6 months. I have not tried one yet, but have heard some people really like it. 

But then again, some people enjoy throwing dirt in their aquariums. You will find IT ALL right here at APC! 

Keep your sense of humor and digital camera ready. You will need them. 

For me right now, Green and or Bright Blue is good, Yellow might mean a water change needed. But that is my tank. :smile:


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## matlyn (Aug 16, 2006)

*PinPoint*



Jimbo205 said:


> And if you get sick of testing pH. Seachem has this really cool pH Detector that lasts for 3-6 months. I have not tried one yet, but have heard some people really like it.


Actually, as I listed above, I have a PinPoint real-time digital pH monitor. It's a really cool toy!


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Being able to easily measure pH doesn't mean you need to do so. And, no matter how good the device or test kit you use, if you want to rely on it you need to verify that it is still calibrated correctly. Electronic pH monitors or probes can easily drift in calibration, be affected by electrical interferrence from fluorescent light ballasts, or fans, or other electric devices.

My opinion is that only those of us who have achieved sufficient expertise to go into breeding pH sensitive fish, if there are any, and who really understand what the pH reading is telling them, have a compelling reason to tinker with pH. I don't fit that category, so my pH probe just sits under the tank taking up space. I have no idea what my pH is.


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## Lord Nibbler (Dec 22, 2005)

*Experience*

I had experience with very alkaline well water at my parents' house. We had a new well drilled and the water was much more alkaline than the previous well.

Did fine: rainbowfish, plecos, live-bearers, cories, brilliant rasaboras

Sickly: black tetras, white tetras

100% mortality: neons, cardinals, angelfish, glowlights

I just had to give up on neons and angelfish at their house, even though they were happy with water from the old well. The neons would just go into shock within a few days and the angels would get chronic hole-in-the-head.


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## milalic (Aug 26, 2005)

I'll add my two cents about this...

1. An RO unit does not guarantee you that your water is going to be out of buffers or it is going to be acidic. Depending on where you live there are other buffers present in the water that a Kh test kit can not measure. My RO water has a ph around the same as my tap water, which is around 7.6-8. If a measure kh it says 0. The membranes, etc in the RO unit are two month old. My water company puts sodium hydroxide and other things to buffer water. The RO unit does not remove everything, so it still has enough to buffer it.

2. Use a method that you will fill comfortable with. My experience is RO water with seachem equilibrium, some baking soda and CO2.

3. if you want to use HCL, be very careful and do it with water outside your tank first. Use your ph probe to figure out how X amount of HCL will lower your tap water. One thing to notice is that you have to keep adding HCL until the ph does not bounce back again.

4. I have not use any of the seachem buffers. As all methods it has its pros/cons. 

Have fun,
Pedro


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

> An RO unit does not guarantee you that your water is going to be out of buffers or it is going to be acidic.


Many RO units come with TDS meters. If the TDS meter is reading 0, then there's no alkalinity in the product water.



> 4. I have not use any of the seachem buffers. As all methods it has its pros/cons.


You say you're using baking soda, so you're using a very close equivalent to Seachem Alkaline Buffer.



> Being able to easily measure pH doesn't mean you need to do so. And, no matter how good the device or test kit you use, if you want to rely on it you need to verify that it is still calibrated correctly. Electronic pH monitors or probes can easily drift in calibration, be affected by electrical interferrence from fluorescent light ballasts, or fans, or other electric devices.


Calibrating a pH meter is very quick and easy. Many many people use pH to help gauge CO2 levels. This is discussed in many threads and on many information sites. So I don't know why you would say people shouldn't measure their pH, even if it's easy to do so.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Salt said:


> Calibrating a pH meter is very quick and easy. Many many people use pH to help gauge CO2 levels. This is discussed in many threads and on many information sites. So I don't know why you would say people shouldn't measure their pH, even if it's easy to do so.


If you re-read my comment, I didn't say you shouldn't measure pH. I did say that being able to do so does not mean you have to. From what I have read here and in other forums, most people ignore the electric interferrence effect on pH probes, assuming that the digital readout has to be correct. And, it may be correct, but it also may not be, if you have a fluorescent ballast near, which most of us do, or if you have a little fan in the hood, which many of us do. The point is, if you are going to rely upon a measurement for something important, it is worth the effort to make sure the measurement is accurate.


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## matlyn (Aug 16, 2006)

hoppycalif said:


> From what I have read here and in other forums, most people ignore the electric interferrence effect on pH probes, assuming that the digital readout has to be correct. And, it may be correct, but it also may not be, if you have a fluorescent ballast near, which most of us do, or if you have a little fan in the hood, which many of us do. The point is, if you are going to rely upon a measurement for something important, it is worth the effort to make sure the measurement is accurate.


Hoppy: They invented a little thing called a light switch. I made it 'worth my effort' to switch it off and the meter didn't move. ie no interference - meter is dead on. Was just calibrated with test solutions 1 week ago. Sorry, don't mean to be sarcastic, but sheesh.

I must admit that even though I have the fancy digital readout, I still use my Hagen test tube pH kit also. If your meter is 'taking up space' maybe you can send it my way. I would be happy to put it to use in another tank.

Well, based on the number of responses to this post, it looks like I hit a hot topic. Sorry, didn't mean to stir the pot, just looking for some input. Don't worry, I'll be sure to ask some other stupid questions in the days to come.


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## SkinniMini (Mar 26, 2006)

matlyn, can you get RO water from your LFS? Just wondering cuz one of my regular stops has offered to sell some to me for a small charge per gallon. Places like that may be few & far between, though..this one caters heavily to the saltwater crowd.
Maybe you could call around, if you wanted to go that route, but it seems like a pain in the butt, too.


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