# Reducing bio-filtration



## Righteous (Sep 19, 2013)

Hello everyone!

I've got a 10 gallon planted tank that I've been running for about 3 months, and as an experiment, I just removed the bio filters in the tank. My hope was to allow the plants to do all the filtering and remove any potential competition for nutrients by taking out the bio filters. I replaced the filters with an AquaClear powerhead with quickfilter for water circulation and polishing only.

Within 48 hours nitrite levels had risen to .50ppm, and I noticed a trace (less than .25ppm) amount of ammonia. I've since replaced the bio filters and ammonia and nitrate are back down to 0. I'd like to know if anyone has tried this before and if anyone has experience running without a bio filter. From Diana's book, it seems like she runs with a quickfilter only.

Some background on the tank:

The tank has 1 inch organic potting soil with 1 inch gravel. For the first month or so I had only 1 Amazon Sword and 1 Java Fern, and the tank was mainly filtered with 1 small Marina I25 Internal Filter and an air driven corner filter. After reading Diana's book through several times, I decided to go completely planted and added another dozen or so plants. Within 2 days of putting in the new plants, ammonia levels and nitrite went to 0 and have stayed there since. 

Here's my stocking:

Fauna
1x Dwarf Guorami
2x Julii Cory
5x Cardinal Tetra
1x Apple Snail

Flora
2x Echinodorus bleheri
3x Microsorum pteropus
2x Anubias barteri
1x Pistia
2x Limnophila
2x Myriophyllum pinnatum
1x Cryptocoryne Lutea

Plants have shown very slow growth, with some yellow and browning leaf ends. After planting, I lost 2 Cryptocoryne and 1 Vallisneria. My large Amazon sword plant has grown well, but many leaves have translucent sections and some small holes. My water here is soft with very low kH, so I supplement CaCl2, MgSO4 and NaHCO3. My biggest concern is that the air driven corner filter, on top of competing with the plants for nutrients, is also removing too much CO2, hence the attempt to remove it. 

Should I leave well enough alone, and leave in the 2 bio filters, or does anyone think it's possible to get rid of them and see better plant growth?

Thanks!

Mike


----------



## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

This can be done but a few criteria has to be met. But remember, plants can't do everything bacteria can. They can remove ammonia and nitrite far better than bacteria can. But they can't break down organics (sugars, proteins and fats excreted by fish and decaying plant matter). So you'll always need bacteria, they just don't need to be in your filter.

Your test was not setup very well to be honest. When you suddenly take away the filter, off course nitrite and ammonia is rising. This is because the rest of your tank was used to have help from your filter. To do a real test, you need to run it for at least a month so the bacteria in the tank can take over from the bacteria you took away by removing the filter. Second you'll need a good surface area in your aquarium where bacteria can grow. A porous substrate like aqua soil would be superior IMO, but sand/gravel, plants, decoration, glass, it will all be colonized. Third, you'll need good flow to make sure these bacteria do receive the ammonia and other nutrients to break them down.
Besides this, your fish count should be low and you should feed them minimum amounts because you've less bacteria that break down the waste. Your setting up a El natural 2.0 tank (even more natural) El natural is not very natural if you look at fish count. In nature, 1000 m3 of water may contain only a few fish. Translated to your tank, you can keep somewhere between 0.5-1.5 fish for a natural balance. The filter is just helping you to make to keep more fish.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> My hope was to allow the plants to do all the filtering and remove any potential competition for nutrients by taking out the bio filters.


Don't worry. They aren't competing with each other as much as you think. Without diversity of micro-organisms you can't have a properly functioning planted tank because that's what plants rely on(read about how the substrate works) The filter media is just extra space for microbials to populate so it's beneficial in all scenarios. The plants are well capable of outcometing the filter bacteria for ammonia/nitrites if that's what you are afraid of. However, ammonia/nitrite bacteria is not the only bacteria you want your tank to establish in order to run well. So having as much surface area for bacteria to populate, the best your tank will run providing there's enough oxygen to do so. By removing your filter and surface movement you are decreasing the oxygen stability to an extent. That can lead to many problems for the plants, fish and all beneficial bacteria. Plants, fish and almost all types of bacteria you want to grow in a tank need oxygen to survive(for example ammonia+oxygen=nitrite+oxygen=nitrate, plants breathe oxygen too, so do fish, so does decomposition process of organics, etc....). Cut the oxygen supply and you have a dead tank. If you plant mass isn't great, removing the filter that contributes to oxygenation will send your tank into shock. 
So, threre's a possibility for example that removing your filter and thus surface movement and flow may as well have decreased available oxygen. No plant or nitrogen bacteria can function well without enough oxygen, so ammonia/nitrite won't be removed efficiently, hence the spikes. Almost every process you need in a fish tanks requires lots of oxygen and oxygen is the biggest limitation in aquariums causing lots of "unexplained" issues or issues normally contributed to something else instead.
On another hand, if the plants you already have were capable of removing all the ammonia/nitrite on their own in relation to the bioload of your tank, they would have done so and removing the filter would have caused no spikes because the plants would have long time ago outcompeted your filter bacteria to the point of this specific type of bacteria becoming almost down to non-existent. But in your scenario, that hasn't happened yet and may not happen if the relationship between plant mass-bioload-feeding habbits-oxygen availability, etc.. isn't in equilibrium.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Go to the Filtration section of this forum and find the post that tells you about the million things that the biofilter does. Then Google or something and find out how the plants can do all that.

Then look at tanks that are run in the simplest ways and still work.

Make sense of all that and you are good to go.


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

I have my tank running without a bio filter because I read Diana's book. I converted to dirt 20 days ago. After 4 days of water changes my ammonia was down to zero. My nitrite levels were very low and I continued to do daily water changes. On day 18 the ammonia and nitrite were both zero and I have a small nitrate reading (less than 5ppm).
I take the filter out and wash it in tap water and put fresh cut to size filter material in it so I am keeping as much bacteria as I can out of the filter. I think my nitrite levels would have been zero sooner if I would have kept my filter cleaner the whole time. I left the same filter material in it through day 14. On day 14 I replaced the filter pad and washed the filter. 4 water changes after doing that nitrite and ammonia were zero.
I have been keeping fish tanks for less than a year so I have very little experience but I do know that a bio filter isn't necessary with a heavily planted tank. I have proved that to myself just this month and I am very happy that I decided to let my plants take care of the ammonia.


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

I need to add that I don't plan on keeping filter material in my filter. I have been using it to clear up the water. I will take it out and use it or carbon when needed.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> I need to add that I don't plan on keeping filter material in my filter. I have been using it to clear up the water. I will take it out and use it or carbon when needed.


Well, even if you only used it to "clear up" the water proves some sort of filtration is needed. What we call "mechanical" filtration has both bio and mechanical capabilities which you are using at the moment. So that's one reason to use filtration and it is not the least important because floating mulm and dirt around the tank and especially over the plant leaves can be an algae trigger the minimum. BBA loves dirty tanks for example.


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

I will use a filter when I need to. (after moving plants around and when excess tannins need removed from the water) I won't keep a filter full of biological bacteria to convert ammonia into nitrate. That is the topic here.
Are you suggesting that you can control BBA with biological bacteria in your filter or thru vacuuming the gravel SBS? 
There seems to be a lot of advice given here by people who don't understand the concepts outlined in 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'. 
Converting ammonia into nitrate with biological bacteria in a filter is counterproductive in Walstad tank.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

turtlepower129 said:


> I will use a filter when I need to. (after moving plants around and when excess tannins need removed from the water) I won't keep a filter full of biological bacteria to convert ammonia into nitrate. That is the topic here.
> Are you suggesting that you can control BBA with biological bacteria in your filter or thru vacuuming the gravel SBS?
> There seems to be a lot of advice given here by people who don't understand the concepts outlined in 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'.
> Converting ammonia into nitrate with biological bacteria in a filter is counterproductive in Walstad tank.


The topic here is about using bio media inside a device called filter. You essentually don't understand what happens inside a filter.
The filter biomedia does not provide home just for ammo/nitrite bacteria. It provides home for a wide range of micro-organisms without which a planted tank won't function properly. Some of these microfauna lives in the substrate as well. Did you think biofiltration is limited to Ammo and Nitrite bacteria? This is just one of the many functions and microorganisms that live there.



> There seems to be a lot of advice given here by people who don't understand the concepts outlined in 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'.


I've read that book several times. I have kept fish for years one way or another. And I've read a lot more than just the "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium". The book is great and has a lot of beneficial information, but it's not a bible. Don't limit yourself....



> Converting ammonia into nitrate with biological bacteria in a filter is counterproductive in Walstad tank


Is it really? Can you please elaborate on that. How exactly does nitrifying bacteria outcompete your plants for ammonia and nitrite? You are saying that some small microscopic organisms are more competitive than the big green plants when it comes to feeding themselves with ammonia?
Diana says in her book "If" nitrifiying bacteria outcometes plants for ammonia....But have you asked yourself if that happens at all? Do you realize that one of the main reasons a planted tank can function without filters is because via their roots and oxygen released in the substrate the plants convert the substrate into a huge Bio media. This can not happen without the means of constant oxygenation, hence unplanted tanks in which most of the substrate is devoid of oxygen can only function by using additional "artificial" filtration/constant supply of oxygenated water to the filter media instead. Ammonia/nitrite are abundand in fish tanks, but oxygen is a huge limitation.
So I don't see your logic in limiting your tank of "bio media".



> Are you suggesting that you can control BBA with biological bacteria in your filter or thru vacuuming the gravel SBS?


Who said anything about vacuuming the gravel? This proves how everyone interprets information to suit their own needs. 
Detritus, melting plants, floating particles, high organics, etc..can trigger algae outbreaks, and that's the least bad thing. For the most part the substrate in a well functioning tank, not limited to other essentials like oxygen will deal with that and even benefit by extracting nutritients via the breakdown of organics. So no one is talking "vacuuming the substrate" here, not in a planted tank. But you are talking extremes in your previous post. If your tank was functioning correctly you will not see floating detritus and murky water and wouldn't have needed a filter media to "clear the water"

You can start reading about decomposition and how much oxygen is required to do so. Even Diana said she now recommends a degree of surface movement and flow in tanks against her old advice because she now believes this is essential not only to the oxygen levels, but to create enough CO2 for the plants to function. One can get away with anything in a small tank, but try the same approach in a large tank. You'll most often than not end up with quite a "messy" tank.

And as I explained above, please educate yourself "BIO" means inside a tank. Again, a properly functioning tank has millions of microorganisms to function properly and ammonia/nitrite bacteria is just a small portion of them. Whether in the substrate or in the filter, this bacteria is essential and is always present in a tank. A filter just provides that extra bit of surface area for these beneficial microorganisms, thus stabilizing the tank and providing redundancy.
As for your own tank, it's up to you how you run it. I am glad you are happy with your own results.


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

SBS perhaps you could explain what a dirty tank is and why BBA love a dirty tank. If you have read 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium' so many times then you must skip over the parts you don't understand.
I noticed a few months ago how frequent you comment on posts so I went to look at your beautiful tank pictures. There is none.
Pages 111-112 and page 184 of 'Ecology...' explain why bio-filters are unnecessary and counter-productive. (pages you must have skipped over)
'Ecology...' does seem to be the main reference book (what you call a bible) for Walstad tanks seeing that they are commonly referred to as Walstad tanks.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_qs2IfJPJ77OHItRWxCR2FpUGc/edit?usp=sharing

That is a link to a pic of my tank. I do not know how to post a pic here any other way.

SBS why do you still insist that a planted tank cannot work without a bio-filter.

I was led to this site because Diana Walstad is involved here. More recently I have come here for the entertainment value of the advice provided by members who know less about aquariums than a newbie like me.

I stand by all statements in my previous posts and I do not feel repeating any of it with more explanation to you would be of any value.

Any one who wants to learn what I know about planted tanks can pick up Diana's book and read for themselves why you and some others here are giving bad advice.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> SBS why do you still insist that a planted tank cannot work without a bio-filter.


You should read my comments again. I never insisted that a planted tank cannot work without a bio-filter. It can, because nitrification is provided via the substrate as well and that's what I was trying to explain by comparing a planted tank subtrate to huge bio media. But as Diana says in her book a lightly stocked tank is advisable because such tanks can't support high bioloads. What I've been trying to explain is that having extra bio filtration is not detrimental to planted tanks and can be beneficial.
If you are following the advise that bio filtration is counterproductive in a planted tank, then you should take all your substrate out and let the plants float because substrate provides nitrification and more..



> I noticed a few months ago how frequent you comment on posts so I went to look at your beautiful tank pictures. There is none.


I never claimed my tank is/was beautiful. In fact neither are the rest 4 of my tanks. I am no good at aquascaping but if I have to be mean, neither are you. 
This is my larger NPT tank.








And this picture is from a few min ago in case you think I am picture picking. The tank developed a leak and stayed less than half full for 2-3 weeks. I fixed it last weekend but I have been afraid to fill it up to the top, hence the low water level. 








I still like my tank better than yours but that's a totally personal opinion and aquascaping has nothing to do with this question.

And to help you upload the picture of your tank below. By the way, your grass is dying. And I won't even try to attempt to explain to you the importance of flow and distribution in order to maintain carpet plants. 








To upload a picture you can use a website like photobucket or imageshack to upload the pictures first, then use the image button here when replying to insert the picture.


----------



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Don't forget that the biofilter scales itself to the dirt load. Have a nice going tank with a few fish, add a ton of fish and the biofilter can't keep up with them - it needs time to ramp up. But if you keep a ton of fish and you add some more the biofilter will handle them too. And it is also true that if you have zero fish or very few fish you can just remove the filter. ADA tanks always have a very light fish load and that is one "trick" to them.

Forget this "my tanks are not pretty". I personally am sick of forced arrangements that are so contrived and repetitive that elicit stress and boredom when you look at them. The first two pictures that you show (where you see a bunch of light rails) shows a tank that is a pleasure to look at - it is a breath of fresh air exactly because it is not arranged/aquascaped/trimmed/golden ratio-ed/japanised. Plants are healthy? Make you happy to look at them? Overall easy-going feel? You are successful at this. That's all it is about.

Here are a bunch of examples of the opposite:
http://peha68.pl/iaplc-2013-top-27


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

SBS anyone reading your comments would believe they have to have biological bacteria in a filter for their tank to function properly. Now that I have pointed out where my information came from you respond as if you weren't arguing about that when you clearly were. If no one disagrees with what you are saying then everyone reading this later will think that having biological bacteria in a filter is necessary. I am saying that a tank can function without this type of filtering. Of course it has to be done properly (in this case properly means a lighter fish load).
I keep reading about this subject of biofiltration and how it is necessary to have that bacteria in a filter when it is not. That is misinformation.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> SBS anyone reading your comments would believe they have to have biological bacteria in a filter for their tank to function properly. Now that I have pointed out where my information came from you respond as if you weren't arguing about that when you clearly were.


I wrote a big response trying to explain things in detail, but I deleted it because you just interpet it the way you want.

All I am going to say to you is that based on my experience with 5 planted tanks I've come to the conclusion they run a lot better in every aspect(plant or fish wise) when there's a lot of bio-filtration and good flow distribution despite that they are all planted and are low tech tanks. My NPT tank is not an exception. I did not say that you can't run a tank without a filter. People run tanks with all sorts of different setups. 
But taking my NPT tank and many other similar examples in consideration, where is your proof that high biofiltration is counteractive in NPT tanks?

As for your tank, based on the picture you provided, I'd say it's not "functioning properly" based on my understanding on what that means. Your bottom plants are hugely struggling for example. That's one huge issue there because maintaining plant health is your only insurance the way you run your tank. You mentioned you are running the filter to "clear the water". Why would you if your tank is "functioning properly" without filtration? Out of curiosity, is there any surface scam on the water surface?
How long have you had your fish for? You can only be sure your fish are not subjected to enviromental instability and stress when they live their lifetime to the fullest in the conditions you setup for them. So please come back in a few years with what you've found out about how to keep a stable tank by then.


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

The pic was taken a week after I planted. The plants are healthy. The lileopsis is planted thin and not dying but not spreading like I would want - against what I read I planted a carpet plant anyway. I have 6 of the 7 fish I started out with in Jan. 2013. (The one that died got sucked into a powerhead that I no longer use.)
I'm tired of arguing with you. You win. It's impossible to keep a planted tank unless you have a filter full of biological bacteria.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> The pic was taken a week after I planted.


So you are showing us a picture 9 months old to prove your point? Is there any reason why you can't take a picture of your tank as it looks now? I am glad your fish are fine. 6-7 fish in that tank should not be a huge bioload for your plants to manage it but we haven't seen the condition of your fish at the moment and they still have years to live depending on species so it's early to say. On the same note I know I can keep fish in a "normal" tank healthy for their full life span but I am still learning whether that's the case in an NPT tank with irregular water changes so I can't argue about mine either.



> *against what I read* I planted a carpet plant anyway


I presume that's what you read in Diana's book. She reckons carpet plants don't do as well in NPT for whatsoever reason. Have you asked yourself why, have you researched why that could be? One reason that comes to mind is Diana has little or no flow in her tanks. Carpet plants produce growth inhibiting enzymes and need good flow distribution to prevent these accumulating. Hence why I am using external filters setup via spraybars covering the entire back of the tank. This way the flow hits the front glass and then spreads down towards the bottom providing a circular flow which is essential for carpet plants the least although all plants benefit from that for CO2 and nutritient distribution as well.

Here are my carpet plants below in my NPT tank growing well. Should I just go back, read the section of the book where it doesn't recommend carpet plants and plug mine out because it says so in the book? Or just go and plug my filters out because it says so in the book?
And don't get me wrong, for the most part that book is great and I love it. What I don't agree about it, is that it says that surface movement from filtration and/or bio filtration is counteractive and flow/bio filtration is not recommended or bad for an NPT. Experience proves that following this advise can actually be detrimental in a tank and especially NPT tanks that deal with so much organics due to the reduced water changes, even if you forget about carpet plants.












> I'm tired of arguing with you. You win. It's impossible to keep a planted tank unless you have a filter full of biological bacteria.


 If I have to be honest, I kept a tank 20 years ago with one fish and no filter or heater, or plants and substrate for 5 years. The fish lived although it was a loach so it should have lived 5 times that amount of time. Should I use this example to prove a point you can keep a tank without a filter?

The problem is, it's not about winning, it's about life and death of fish. Will they suffer without a filter? -Maybe not. Will they be safer with a filter-Maybe. Will your plants suffer without a filter-Maybe not, will they suffer with a filter-Maybe not. Are you right?-possibly. Am I right?-possibly



> The first two pictures that you show (where you see a bunch of light rails) shows a tank that is a pleasure to look at - it is a breath of fresh air exactly because it is not arranged/aquascaped/trimmed/golden ratio-ed/japanised.


Thanks for the compliment Niko. I know the tank can't compete even with the the last on the list of well aquascaped tanks but the life inside it is superhealthy and that on its own is an achievment and a pleasure to look at daily.


----------



## turtlepower129 (May 21, 2013)

I just skimmed over your last post. I'm about done discussing this. I've been thinking about this all wrong. I have been arguing using Diana Walstad's method that she discusses in her book.
You, SBS have a fish tank with a dirt substrate. The method Walstad outlines in her book doesn't constantly filter water thru biological bacteria in a filter.
We just have been misunderstanding one another. I was saying you were wrong because I thought you were trying to pass your tank off as a Walstad tank which it clearly is not.
The picture is less than 3 weeks old. I put dirt and plants in my tank September 5, 2013.
I just thought this was the place where people came to discuss their Walstad Method planted tanks. Oh look at the top of this page. It even says "Diana Walstad's low-maintenance, soil-based 'El Natural' method for keeping plants and fish." 
I'm certainly very new to keeping plants in a dirt tank but I'm not new to reading. Walstad never one time in her book says to use a filter with biological bacteria in it. I think I am in the right place.
There is no need for you to write any more words for me to read as I am done reading any post by you. I only read a few words of your last post. I am interested in chatting with others who use the Walstad method though of which your tank clearly is not using that method.


----------



## SBS (Feb 26, 2013)

> I was saying you were wrong because I thought you were trying to pass your tank off as a Walstad tank which it clearly is not.
> The picture is less than 3 weeks old. I put dirt and plants in my tank September 5, 2013.


I am glad you finally realised that my tank is not following the book to the letter. That's what I've been trying to explain. But if you think your tank setup in reality "operates" much differently than mine you are very wrong.

And by the way, you keep contradicting yourself. You said your fish have been fine since January in your "Walstad" tank beside the one getting stuck on the powerhead. Now you are saying the tank is 3 weeks old? And 3 weeks is enough for you to form an opinion and provide an advise on fish keeping?

Sorry if I invaded your space by posting on "your" forum.


----------



## herb_remington (Jun 21, 2013)

Turtle,

After drudging throught discussion i can add, "what works well for one might not works as well for another" I have 2 planted tanks set up right now. a 10g and a 125g

the 10g:
I use a shop light for lighting (like the book) in fact I use 7 on my 125g. I have had the tank running for a couple months now. Originally it had 1 betta and 3 cories and no filter. I later added a powerhead for water movement as recommended with a cut up peice of sponge for filtration. Adding the powerhead made a huge difference. I had to move some plants to the 125g because they grew out of the tank. Ive just addded some hairgrass to see how that will work. eveything including the fish are growing well. 

the 125G: I bought a ton of plants from some wonderful people on this forum and have only managed to kill a few. The first set of vals i got would not grow. Up until lthis weekend I was only using a canister with mechanical filtration (to remove large debris) to circulate the water. Overall I was satisfied with the plant growth, some holes here and there but everything is growing. However, I was unhappy with the amount of water movement so i bought another canister with 2 biowheels. Its only been a few days so I am not completely sure how it will work out but we shall see. 

I bought the biowheels after reading through many threads discussing the inportance of additional bacteria to the tank and figured it could'nt hurt. 

I do have a bit of hair aglea and a few spots on the tank now and again, so I'm sure somehting was a little out of whack before adding the biowheels. Im interested to see if they have any noticable impact. There are 30 or so fish in the tank 4 angels, 18 tertas, 7 cories, 7 amano shrimp(though i never see them) and some snails. Maybe Im close to the bioload not sure.

I cant say either of my tanks a "Walstad" but, they are NPT and are pleasing to me, the plants are growing well, the fish are thriving, so i guess thats all that matters.


----------

