# Plant Leaves Falling Apart! With Pics



## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi all,

Long time lingerer but first time poster here. Please go easy, I'm new to all of this!

I've done a hell of a lot of research but can't quite find what issue might be.
So, here's my problem. It seems that without fail, the older leaves of my hygrophilia polysperma and hygrophilia diffomis are falling apart, not falling off altogether just in bits. To a lesser extent the older leaves of my Red Ludwigia are doing the same but I tend to lose the whole leaf after it's gone a bit soggy and brown.
As you'll see from the pictures the hygrophilias have holes in the leaves which eventually causes parts of the leaves to fall of. Although the plants are growing new leaves the older leaves are falling apart almost as fast!! By that I mean, if there is new growth, by the time the new leaves are fully formed the leaves beneath it are starting to show symptoms.
I've tried my best to give you some pictures...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

The closest symptom I can find is a potassium deficiency and so I've been dosing potassium for a month or so now, as well as the usual Seachem Flourish and root tabs. I've not got Co2 going and really don't want to. 
I haven't any test results for you yet but was hoping you guys might know what it looks like before I try everything.
I've got a Vision 180 litres which reflectors on the t5 bulbs which gives me per 1.47 watts per US gal (or 1.77 UK gal).

Anything else you all need to know to give me any ideas? And if it is simply a potassium deficiency should I be overdosing? And how long until it takes effect?

Thanks a lot,

Moose


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

It doesn't look like potassium deficiency, but it might be magnesium deficiency. I have not used Seachem Fluorish and don't know the ingredients. Does it list magnesium? Also, the root tabs---What are their ingredients? What are you using when you add potassium? I don't like the looks of that algae that covers the leaves before they disintegrate. I gather you don't have any snails. Snails might help. What is your tapwater like? Hard? Soft? Exactly, what is your substrate? How often do you make changes. What is your fish load? Fish that graze on algae, such as guppies, mollies, etc. might help. 

I am not sure what this, but it might be a toxicity, rather than a deficiency. Try cutting out the root tabs. You may be overdosing. These plants can easily get their nutrients from the water, but they do need to be rooted in order to do this efficiently.


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## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi,

Thanks very much for the reply.

So, I think you should know that I've just changed the substrate - a week ago - from crushed coral to JBL Manado which seems to be only Europe wide. It was recommended to me by the lfs as a substitute to Seachem gravel and from what I've read it seems pretty good. I can't tell you much more nor can their website, this is the best I can do:
http://www.warehouse-aquatics.co.uk...jbl-manado-10l-planting-substrate-p-4922.html
I wasn't adding any root tabs before I changed the substrate just adding the liquid fert. I was having this problem with the crushed coral so although it hasn't had time to fix it yet, new holes still seem to be appearing.

The root tabs I'm using are here:
http://www.aquaristikshop.com/e_Produktinformationen/JBL-The-7-Balls.htm
http://www.aquaristikshop.com/e_Produktinformationen/JBL-Ferrotabs-30-tabl..htm

The ingredients in the seachem flourish are (from their website):

Total Nitrogen 0.07%
Available Phosphate ( P2O5) 0.01%
Soluble Potash 0.37%
Calcium (Ca) 0.14%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.11%
Sulfur (S) 0.2773%
Boron (B) 0.009%
Chlorine (Cl) 1.15%
Cobalt (Co) 0.0004%
Copper (Cu) 0.0001%
Iron (Fe) 0.32%
Manganese (Mn) 0.0118%
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Sodium (Na) 0.13%
Zinc (Zn) 0.0007%

The pottasium I'm adding is Seachem Flourish Pottasium:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishPotassium.html

It's also well worth pointing out that I've had bba (or still do as the case maybe) and have gone for the bleaching method which seemed to work but you may tell me otherwise!
The algae may be the key problem but thought that plants help eliminate it...?!

As for the fish, please see my signature/avatar and/or I'll attempt to attach it below










__
https://flic.kr/p/4789841792










I've also got some Malaysian Trumpet Snails to help with the cleanup but nobody seems to be gobbling anything up at any kind of speed.

Finally my water is hard and I do weekly changes of around 20%

Hope that's everything, let me know if it's not!

Thanks again,

Moose


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## Elohim_Meth (Nov 4, 2007)

I would say it is NO3 deficiency.


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## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Very possibly is NO3, looks a lot like the first picture here:

http://180liter.blogspot.com/2006/05/nitrate-no3-deficiency.html

Anyone else?


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

Just a short answer here, because I have to leave shortly. 
Crushed coral seems like a bad idea for growing freshwater aquatic plants. I have never heard of it being used for a freshwater aquarium before. It is intended for marine tanks. It would be alkaline and have such high concentrations of calcium that it might very well make iron and phosphorus very unavailable. And, this along with hard water-----! Probably the JBL monado, whatever that is, will work a lot better.

How are you using the bleach treatment? Are you treating the plants and then returning them to the aquarium which still is infested with the black beard algae? See http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/49383-bleach-method.html for the proper way to use the bleach method.

Those pictures supposedly of nitrate deficiency definitely are not nitrogen deficiency. I do not know what is wrong with the plants in those pictures, but a nitrogen deficient plant is pale except for the growing tip which is greener than the rest of the plant. It also produces an excessive amount of roots. Here is a picture of nitrogen deficient _Hygrophila polysperma_.


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## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Pk,

Yep, crushed coral was indeed a bad idea to grow plants, hence the change. Having said that, for yours and anybody else's future reference onion plants - Crinum thaianum do rather well!

Anyway, I didn't quite do that bleach method as I haven't got a new tank to move anything into. I've read that as long as you keep it in check it should be fine.
As for the previous No3 link, whether it's No3 or not that seems to be what I have. The blackening of the leaves on the difformis looks a lot like mine.
The guy in the link goes on to say how he fixed the problem, do you think that would be worth a try?


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## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok, I've done a nitrate test and let's just say the problem is not a lack of nitrates!
What could it be???! Anyone seen any similar looking plants to mine??


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## HeyPK (Jan 23, 2004)

moosemoosmoo said:


> The guy in the link goes on to say how he fixed the problem, do you think that would be worth a try?​


The only thing he did besides start adding sodium nitrate was increase his CO2. Since I am sure he didn't really have nitrogen deficiency, maybe the CO2 was the reason for his improvement. Of course, he may have done other things that we don't know about.


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## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi all,

I'm back and haven't solved it yet!!! 

So, after a short break and a trip to the lfs for a water test we can conclude that the problem is not excess phosphate or nitrate as proven by a few tests.

My latest theory could be _lack_ of phosphate or even nitrate but I haven't found any plants pics to prove it.

Please see my new pictures of my hygrophilia polysperma for more accurate time line of my leaf deterioration (in chronological order)...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157624688679038/

As you will see, the brown tint on the edge of leaf starts to appear then gradually take over (not necessarily from edge to centre). After this holes appear around the edges then, as with the brown, the holes spread all over the leaf. Eventually the leaf starts to look very sad and like it's been chewed (which it hasn't!).
The only other interesting thing worth mentioning is that a few of my other plants - onion plant, limnophila heterophylla - aren't showing these symptoms at all.

I'm almost well and truly stumped, what does this look like to y'all?

Yours hopefully,

Moose


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## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Hi,
I had similar problem after I stopped dosing K.
Now I do dose K and all is well.
Not an expert but IMHO...so much for enough K with your NP dosing via EI! Why? I have no idea but it worked for me


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## moosemoosmoo (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks for the reply aquaticz,

I have to admit, what with being new to all this, that I'm not sure what EI and NP mean!!
I will begin my Potassium dosing again as I've read that fish can tolerate widely varying amounts of K, so it shouldn't do any harm.

Has anybody else ever seen leaves like mine?!?


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## trag (Jan 9, 2008)

moosemoosmoo said:


> I have to admit, what with being new to all this, that I'm not sure what EI and NP mean!!I will begin my Potassium dosing again as I've read that fish can tolerate widely varying amounts of K, so it shouldn't do any harm.
> 
> Has anybody else ever seen leaves like mine?!?


I'm not sure mine are exactly like yours, but I have the same problem with my difformis and to a lesser extent with my banana plants. Meanwhile the Java Fern in the tank appears as happy as can be.

Mine is a 30 gallon tank with two 30 watt fluorescent lights on for about 10 - 12 hours per day. (Five - six hours morning and evening, off in afternoon.)

The tank has about seventy swordtails in it, two HOB filters and a RFUGF filter driven by powerhead with small sized natural gravel for substrate.

The difformis grew great for two or three months. It added several inches in height until it was bending over at the top of the tank. Then I pruned it and planted the upper bits. Not too long after that it lost its lower leaves and only the crowns are still growing. However, I wasn't watching closely so I can't say exactly how the lower leaves died. It seems like they just sort of disintegrated. The banana plants started losing leaves at the same time.

So I started dosing iron from an old bottle of Sea Chem Flourish. I'm not sure exactly which product it was, and it was about five years old, but the bottle said it provided iron and other trace elements and was sort of brownish black. I also added some "Plant Tabs" (I think these are Jungle brand) I had which are supposed to supply K and iron. I also added some Hawaiian Marine brand trace element supplement. However, after a month or so of that I still didn't see any difference, or only minor differences. The banana plants might have improved.

So I tried putting some plant tabs from Agri-Safe in the substrate which are meant for pond plants. They claim to include iron and micronutrients and are either 10 - 20 - 10 or 20 - 5 - 10 but that didn't seem to have any effect, although again, the banana plants looked like they might be improving.

Aquatic Tabs
Other Aquatic Tabs; scroll to bottom of page

A few weeks after that, I trotted out the test kits and my nitrates and phosphates were at the high end (not surprising in a crowded tank and possibly from the pond tabs), but this was just before a water change (approx. 50% every two weeks.) and my pH was down around 6. I couldn't detect any iron.

My LFS recommended looking at KH, so I took home some Sea Chem alkaline buffer. Before adding it my KH was about 3 and GH was about 5. Now they're both around 7 - 8. If nothing else, the water doesn't get so acidic before a water change. Two weeks of that and I still don't see any improvement in the difformis, which is down to just little sprigs growing at the level of the substrate. The old thick stems are disintegrating.

Last week I started dosing with CSM+B and K2SO4 and a little Iron Chelate, but I think it's too soon to really draw any conclusions.

I did notice that some of my banana plant leaves now seem to have brown rimmed holes. But they're kind of large compared to the tiny holes shown for K deficiency.

And all through this the java fern is just as happy as can be.

I have a similar 30 gallon tank right below this one with a pair of 39watt T5HO lights. In that tank the java moss is dieing similarly to the difformis in the upper tank, and again, the java fern is as happy as can be. The bottom tank is a bare tank. I tried moving some of the sprigs of difformis to this bottom tank a month or so ago to see if it would do better. It did not. That probably rules out too little light as the bottom tank gets about 50% more light than the top tank.

Anyway, I don't know the answer to the dieing difformis problem, but you're definitely not alone. It's supposed to be an "easy" plant. I would think that with adequate light, plenty of fish to provide nutrients, and regular water changes, it should have done fine, but that's not how it worked out for me after the initial two or three months of wonderful growth.


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## Jolly_jubjub (Dec 16, 2010)

I may be a bit late for this thread, but you can add another to the mysteriously-disintigrating-plant group- with contented java ferns. I haven't tried any of the extensive fertilizing that you guys have done. Similarly my nitrates etc. are in check if not a little high (pre-water change). I have a fairly well-stocked tank so initially it wasn't on my radar that the issue might be a lack of CO2. It doesn't sound like either of you does CO2 injection, and neither do I, but I'm about to set up a DIY system to see if it helps. I'll let you guys know how it goes!


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