# Submersed vs Emersed Grown HC - Does it Matter?



## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

There are a lot of plants that don't do well initially when transitioning from emersed growth (out of water) to submersed growth (underwater). _Hemianthus callitrichoides__ (HC) _is one such plant that can be heavily debated as to whether it's best to buy it in its submersed form over the emersed grown HC. Let's continue the debate now that more people have grown both types of HC.

What do you think? Why?

-John N.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: Oustanding!*

You guys are really stressing out over this emersed/submersed thing. I'm telling you it makes no difference with HC. Its all grown emersed. If you buy it from any of the Asian sponsors its emersed. Even hobbyists are growing it emersed. The guys in Texas and Callifornia and all over the place are growing it in trays with humidity domes. It makes no difference. It doesn't loose it leaves underwater, it doesn't die back, it just grows!


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: Oustanding!*

It does matter! Most folks that I know that have tried the emersed form, it has all died! HC takes forever to get going when you get it submersed, it may be years if you get the emersed


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: Oustanding!*

Oh common, give me a break! Lets see, there is the store in Houston called City pets that sells trays of it and is adored by every member of NASH, if you look in the forum here for emersed growing, there is at least six people growing it in trays to quote "supply the hobby with good quality HC", I think someone in your club was doing it as well Bigstick. There is a couple well known hobbyists in San Francisco doing it and every online Asian seller of it has it emersed. I had a hobbyist growing it in trays from Hawaii for the past year and nobody ever complained about it. Oh and lets see ever hear of Tropica Plants? They don't grow it submersed either!

If you want to discourage people from buying it from me, you are going to have to come up with a more believable reason than that. You guys have never brought this up with anyone else selling this other than me. You guys never cease to amaze me. I would think Bigstick that for one moment you could put your personal feelings aside for a moment and be grateful that the largest producer of plants in Florida is growing HC and making it available to everyone in this country.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: Oustanding!*

Oh and by the way, Florida Aquatic grows these hydroponically the exact same method as Tropica Plants of Denmark grows it, the most respected and drooled over grower in the world and the company who first discovered this plant and first brought it to market. Oliver Knott, the first aquascaper to make this plant famous documents how he planted his famous HC aquascape with Tropica emersed pots and got his full carpet within a month. I will look for the link for you BigstICK. THanks for your feed back


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: Oustanding!*

Sure thing RobERT! Just trying to help out

Thats just my personal experience and info that I have read. Apparently I am not the only on that has experienced or heard this, for you to make the comment that 
"You guys are really stressing out over this emersed/submersed thing."

Im sure some of it will convert, others wont and die, but if you are able to sell it cheap, i guess that is the gamble that ppl are willing to take.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: Oustanding!*

So you are saying Tropica plants are crap now? Nobody should buy HC from Tropica plants? Thats what you are saying? Its really nice you feel the need to interfere and call it help. I don't need that kind of help from you. You are going to keep ranting and raving now until they close the thread. Right? How pathetic.You can't even allow one of my customers to express how happy they are. What a nice guy. Really looking out for Big *ick



> Im sure some of it will convert, others wont and die


Oh first it was "it all dies and takes YEARS to grow" Oliver knott did it in 30 days. You waffle like John Carey.



> i guess that is the gamble that ppl are willing to take.


Thats really the issue with you isn't it? Now you can't sell it for ten dollars an inch anymore. Well guess what, I am not the one setting the price, Florida Aquatic Nurseries is. If you can not show me a little respect in my vendor forum, show my customer a little respect and walk away.

I'm really sorry Dennis. Unfortunetly there is not much I can do about this. I have to put up with people like this here.


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: Oustanding!*

LOL you crack me up! 
You are the one that crapped in your own thread, someone asked about emersed and I offered my opinion. You are the one ranting and raving about nothing as usual. You shouldnt feel so compelled to defend it if there is no problem getting it to go submeresed.

Big*ick out!


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## snickle (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: Oustanding!*

Let's be calm.

It seems to make a difference with HC, whether the source was submerged or not. The difference maybe in how to introduce it to the new environment.

Nobody that I have seen has done a guide to that. I am currently in the proccess of trying to get some emersed HC, to the point I can submerge and will report my results.


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## StrungOut (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: Oustanding!*

Its the same thing. It all depends on your water parameters. HC that died out bought emmersed probably would've done the same if they had some submersed stuff. Thats just my opinion I'm happy with my buy and thought I would post pictures and the HC is doing fine. This little debate is better off for a new topic in the plant forum or so.

Dennis


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Wow, alot of bad blood in this thread, I don't know what that is about.

I would need to see some kind of documentation proving submersed HC has a better survivability compared to emersed. I could problably be convinced that submersed HC will start to grow actively faster, than the emersed form, but that almost a no-brainer. 

StrungOut has a valid point. Id like to hear from somone that has tried both, where the emersed failed and the submersed succeeded.


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

Before selling my HC I grew it submersed, transitioned it to emersed and back to submersed. I never had any problems. If either emersed or submersed dies on you it must have been damaged in shipping, or your tank is not suited to HC at that time. 

I personally don't care which one I get, either way it has to transition to a new tank. 

I actually prefer emersed sometimes because people don't always have algae free tanks...


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## enzo (Aug 19, 2006)

When I setup my tank about a month ago, I bought both submerged and emersed grown HC. The only thing I noticed is that the foliage got smaller on the emersed--but nonetheless, they are both growing great!


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

IMO emersed will ship better, acclimate better, and be free of algae and most deficiencies. Thats why all the nurseries grow the plants emersed. Its way easier for them to grow them, ship them, and not worry about deficiencies or algae. Emersed HC will transition into the aquarium different than most aquatic plants. It will not loose all its leaves like most. If someone bought emersed HC and it died then the same would of happened to the submerged HC. Some tanks just wont grow it well for whatever reason that is. IMO


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## SauceMan (Feb 25, 2007)

I recently purchased four pots of HC from Robert Hudson (Aquabotonic) that was grown emersed and it is doing great in my 29g tank. The day I received my order it was °105F here in the Phoenix AZ area, yet the HC arrived in very good condition. It's been in my tank for just over two weeks and I haven't noticed even a hint of transitioning or loss of plant matter. I figured it would be at least 3 to 4 weeks before I noticed any spreading (based on posts in this forum) but, it's already starting to spread a bit. This with less that optimum growing conditions in my tank as noted below. 

As noted in an earlier post, this is not an advertisement, just the way I see it.

Experience: Fairly new to the hobby, but a avid reader(lurker) of this forum.
Tank: 29G (30 X 18 X 12")
Substrate: Eco-Complete / 1/8" gravel mix (approx 70% / 30%)
Lighting: Coralife 65W Aqualight (2.24 wpg)
CO2: DIY Generator with Red Sea venturi diffuser
Ferts: Seachem Nitrogen, Potassium, Iron, Flourish and, Excel
Planted fairly dense with mostly stems
Weekly 50% water changes with 50% distilled/50% tap water 


Pete


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

every time i buy hc potted the middle dies out, i think its cuz i dont take the bottom thing off that the roots go into, whats the best way to get your hc going when you recieve it in pots? my tank was at about 82 a week ago so that diddnt help, now its at a constant 77 and the hc that is left is stuggling to survive, i am using aquasoil select (inflield clay conditioner) as my substrate, the people at aquaforest aquarium told me today that this substrate could be the reason for my hc dieing and to only use ada brand amazonia 2. can anyone back this claim up? has anyone grown hc using lesco's aquasoil select?


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## yoink (Aug 31, 2005)

I got emersed HC from Pedro that didn't die back and grew great. It's kinda funny that I took a little in its emersed state for my frog paludarium, but it didn't do as well as the submerged stuff(probably due to less light and nutrient poor substrate).


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I thought this thread was deleted, instead it was just moved here. Thanks a lot John. The reason there was a bit of hostility to my tone was Bigsticks comments and my comments were originally posted in MY vendor/advertiser forum, not here, and I felt the context of the conversation was much different. I do not mind an honest discussion of the subject, what I objected to was an obviouos interference with my business since to my knowledge I am still the only American online seller selling HC cultivated by Florida Aquatic Nurseries. Bigstick has never raised any objection to any hobbyist selling emersed HC, nor has anyone else ever even asked any hobbyist selling HC if it was emersed or submersed.

If it was Florida Aquatic or Tropica Plants of Denmark instead of me posting here about HC, I doubt very much Bigstick or anyone else would be suggesting people shouldn't be buying the potted HC because it is emersed grown. Many people would give their left arm to have Tropica plants available in this country, and the HC from Florida Aquatic is grown the exact same way as Tropica grows it. So enough of this false pretense

Is submersed grown HC preferable? Does it grow faster, spread faster? Maybe so. I would be interested in hearing more honest, unbiased opinions. So far it seems several people do not agree with Bigstick, (some of Bigsticks original comments were deleted, as were sme of mine) If this conversation in this contex had started here instead of being directed to me in my vendor forum, I would have most likely not even butted into the conversation.


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Yes, this discussion has been taken out of context. None of my comments were deleted, they are all still here. The only thing that I see that was deleted is you calling me names. Perhaps now what you have settled down you realized that I wasnt saying not to buy it from you. I was just letting you and others know that there is a risk of ANY plant when converting from emersed to submersed form. It dosent matter if you, tropica or anyone else sells it, or if its HC or a rotala. I just thought folks should be properly informed.

Im sure if you search around you will find that I have said other things about emersed HC before you ever started carrying it Robert.

You ask for a more honest, unbiased opinion, but when someone offers it as I did you feel the need to personally attack them as you have done to me and many others before as well. So dont take everything so personal and maybe you can learn something and have a civilized conversation.


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## rs79 (Dec 7, 2004)

There are problems growing plants grown emersed when submersed? Really? Which ones? 

I understand most plants are grown emersed (they grow quicker that way and that's why we get them so cheap) and I expect them to drop their emersed leaves or die back as the submersed leaves/stems grow.

But given adequate light and food I can't say I've ever seen an emrse grown plant fail to respond to submersed growth. Now, with inadequate ferts - that's a different story.

Crypts are the worst. They'll drop all their emerse grown leaves (and make a stinking ammonia laden mess) but they always send up new leaves. Of course crypts are funny, even a switch of an submerse grown plant from *different* water will drop it's leaves and make new ones. It seems, or it's as if they "fine tune" their leaves to the current water conditions.


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## fishscale (Jul 25, 2007)

I have grown HC emersed and submersed it, it loses some of its leaves but doesn't take forever to grow back. All fine in about a week or 2. IMO, it's all about lighting and CO2.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Only one person in this whole thread has said growing HC submersed after it has grown emersed is a problem. Seems like a pretty one sided debate. 

Now we have Tom Barr talking about creating an HC carpet inside an aquarium without any water at all as a way of starting a new aquarium algae free! That would be pretty hard to do if HC had a hard time adapting.


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## russell (Dec 7, 2004)

i took several large portions of my own emersed grown hc and added it to 2 of my current tanks, within 2 weeks i was getting tons of new growth and nothing ever died off. now it has been about 1.5 months, and the hc has almost covered the entire foreground. 

i don't believe that it is hard to change over at all. the first hc i ever bought was grown submerged, and it only lasted about 3 weeks before it all died off. then i got emersed hc "about 3x3" portion" and now i have over 4 square feet of the stuff. 

i think it has to do with the hc's health when it is shipped, how well it is packaged/shipped, and your tank conditions. 

personally i would prefer emersed grown because of the hardy easily shipped state of it. i have mailed many portions of it and have never had any complaints, and several people have given updates saying that it converted over easy.

just my 2 cents 

by the way, as a previous member of AB when it was a decent forum i must say that robert is a great guy. maybe a little protective at times, but when i needed help he was one of the first ones to step up and help me out.

russell


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## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

russell said:


> i think it has to do with the hc's health when it is shipped, how well it is packaged/shipped, and your tank conditions.


^ that's what I think too. In my opinion those things are a lot more important than whether it was grown emersed or submersed.

I got mine from a member on here, and it was grown emersed (and was in incredible condition). I had absolutely no problem with it transitioning to submerged growth. I actually got enough that after I had planted my foreground, I still had about half of it left over. I wasn't sure what to do with it so I just left it floating in the aquarium for a couple months. Even the stuff that I just left floating did great. Yeah, some plants do have a hard time transitioning to underwater life, but at least in my experience, HC doesn't seem to be one of them.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

russell, what are your tank specs? Lighting, CO2, Excel?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm yes HC loves excel. 

I think HC occasionally dies off when its placed in a new environment, but I think that might be more due to being shipped badly or being damaged, then being subjected to a completely different environment (underwater).

So, bigstick120 has a point. HC and other plants can have problems transitioning from one form to another if they aren't in peak starting condition. 

Should all work itself out within 2 weeks to a month depending on how badly it was damaged.


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## russell (Dec 7, 2004)

epicfish said:


> russell, what are your tank specs? Lighting, CO2, Excel?


well, i don't really test my water, but the last time i checked was about 6 months ago:

nitrate around 8ppm
po4 3-4ppm
co2 35ppm pretty constant
3 watts/gallon
eco complete substrate

i dose potassium nitrate, csm+b, and phosphate 2-3x per week.

water is farily hard so i sometimes do 50% ro water and 50% tap then add NPK

i am even growing hc on diy co2 with yeast with no problems.

like zapins said hc seems to do well with excel in conjunction with co2. sometimes mine gets kind of dark and doesn't look as healthy as it should, i add about 25mL of excel (36 gallon tank) and it's back to perfect in 2 days.

my newest tank i just set up went through green water and then cloudy water, i just kept doing water changes then i turned the lights off for 2 days straight, that cleared up the green, then water changes cleared up the cloudy water. through all that the hc did fine.

once you get healthy hc in a good tank environment it's a fairly hardy plant.

russell


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

HC is a "fast track" plant - it can spread beautifully or shrivel and almost die within 2-3 days. But it is pretty hard to actually kill. Starting with emersed or submersed doesn't matter as long as your tank has parameters that the HC likes.

It absolutely loves light. If your HC is looking bad, just let if float close to the light and it will come back to life. But it will not look good in a tank without CO2. It can survive for months under very low light if there is CO2 but it will quickly die if there is no CO2 and the light is low.

It does have a "waiting" period after being put in a tank - I'd say about 1 week. After that it does either the fast growth or the shrivel trick when the leaves get really small and bad looking.

Shipping must be done with the roots undisturbed. 

--Nikolay


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## jazzlvr123 (Apr 29, 2007)

I get Pots of HC from Florida aquaric nursuries which grows their HC emmersed every week. I throw the pots in high light submersed conditions and what do i get? Instant bubbling no melting or transitional stages, I dont see what the big argument is about anyone that has bought HC from either me or robert knows that the crap you get from us DOES NOT melt when you throw it is submerged conditions GIven you have clean water, Co2 & high light. I do it time and time again with the same results every time


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> So, bigstick120 has a point. HC and other plants can have problems transitioning from one form to another if they aren't in peak starting condition.


Now that is not what Bigstick said at all. He went way beyond that. Go back and read it again, or better yet, here it is:



> It does matter! Most folks that I know that have tried the emersed form, it has all died! *HC takes forever to get going when you get it submersed*, it may be years if you get the emersed


Do you agree with the severity of this statement? He says the emersed form "all dies". Thats obviously not true. He says it takes years for it to grow, not two weeks. This is what he is telling my CUSTOMERS, implanting doubt in their minds. He says "most people he knows"... well I guess most of the people he knows are not members of APC.

I love being proved right...


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Robert Hudson - no reason to gloat and dance on someone else's head even if you are right. It only serves to piss that person off and foster more argument.

Bigstick was pretty polite and reasonable in his posts, but you didn't return the same courtesy to him. 

I think enough has been said on both sides. Best to let it drop.


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Sorry I had to take Robert off ignore to read this. Im not even going to respond, Zapins has said enough and everyone else on this forum can form their own opinions of you by your actions. 

I speak of my experiences so there for I AM RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! na na na na!!!! You are wrong and I am right!!! NA NA NA NA!!!!!Just speaking child so everyone understands, if you try and talk as an adult someone has a hard time understanding and blows it out of proportion.


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## Chuppy (Aug 5, 2007)

niko said:


> HC is a "fast track" plant - it can spread beautifully or shrivel and almost die within 2-3 days. But it is pretty hard to actually kill. Starting with emersed or submersed doesn't matter as long as your tank has parameters that the HC likes.
> 
> It absolutely loves light. If your HC is looking bad, just let if float close to the light and it will come back to life. But it will not look good in a tank without CO2. It can survive for months under very low light if there is CO2 but it will quickly die if there is no CO2 and the light is low.
> 
> ...


Agreed..

I have a patch of open space in my 20 gal.. and i purposely planted clumps of emersed hc on the left while submerged on the right...

My c02 is at 3 bps with 102 w of light(you cant say that aint enough) with ada's line of tubes and fertz..

Brighty K x 3 pumps per day
Step 1 x 3 pumps once per 2 days
Step 2 x 3 pumps once per 2 days
Bright Lights x3 pumps daily
Shade x3 pumps every 3 days
Green Bacter x1 drop per night
Phyton x1 drop per night
Green Gain x5 drops per week
ECA x1 drop daily

Yes i have a strange fert pattern.. been doing great so ain't changing em 
Early observation : Emersed with lighter coloured leaves while submersed ar darker
1st week both are there.. no change..
2nd week . emersed had a little bit of melting.. submersed stayed with its form...
3rd week Growth are seen at both..Emersed colour slowly turning darker
4th week.. Still growth.. colours still don't match
results.. some slight melting might occur ar initial phase.. after a while BOOM! growth
Conclusion.. Environment does it all... this is what most people tell me.. most plant nurseries have plants grown submersed why?
Cos they can
Save up on c02
and light maybe(conditions apply)

Just sharing my views here

Drew

P.S. that's a heated discussion.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

OK Bigstick, then just tell us if you still stand by your statement, or if you now agree it was a gross exagerration? Seems like a reasonable question to me in a reasonable debate.


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## JeremyAZ (Feb 16, 2007)

After getting some HC that had some riccia piggy backed on it I would rather buy emersed HC. I ended up pulling it all and trashing it since the riccia mixed in it annoyed me and I could never seem to get rid of it all. I then bought pots of emersed and had zero melting and it spread in roughing the same time frame.


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## cholly (Jun 12, 2007)

FWIW, I bought 10 pots of emersed HC from Robert with the intent of it spreading to cover about 75% of the substrate in a 15 gallon tank. Within three weeks, it had.


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## ianmoede (Jan 17, 2005)

This thread is hilarious. Maybe thats why you've been all but banned from TPT, you're kind of a jerk Robert, lacking in tact. I have also had a bad experience with emersed HC taking longer than your average carpet plant to take off. I'm not saying thats the experience everyone has had or will have, simply my own observation. It is possible, when the planets align, for you to be wrong.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Boy it's like a WWF match in here. It's interesting that such a peaceful hobby creates so much tension in some of these forums. Mabye we need a "Aquascaping Wrestling Forum" where those who want to "beat each other up" can sign a waver and say what they want to say without any hard feelings. Getting back to the HC subject. I think like most things in this hobby many different styles and approaches work if conditions are right and the plants are given what they need to grow. Emersed vs Submersed, EI vs El Natural, Diffusor vs Reactor, UV vs No UV. I can go on and on..............


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

NAW, if this was WWF Id of knocked him out early when he called me a ****.


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## ianmoede (Jan 17, 2005)

If this was the WWF, you would've fake knocked him out


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

ianmoede said:


> This thread is hilarious. Maybe thats why you've been all but banned from TPT


As I recall, weren't YOU banned from plantedtank, ianmoede?

Talk about pot calling the kettle black! Sheeesh! C'mon guys, let's be a little nicer here. APC deserves better.


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## ianmoede (Jan 17, 2005)

I wasn't banned for a lack of tact. Being a know it all jerk is a more nefarious offense than just your garden variety jerk in my opinion. And I am quite amazed at either your memory or investigating skills Kelley, kudos. I can deal with a lot of things, but snobbery really gets my goat.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Yes, Ian, you are the only one who has been banned from Planted tank. As far as I know you are the only person ever banned from Planted Tank, and Tom Barr is the only person ever barred from this forum. You two share that distinctive honor all by yourselves. You can call me a jerk all you want to, and Mike, (zappins) can pretend to be as offended as he wants to be, (common Mike, have a sense of humor! Lighten up!), but it does not change the fact that Jeff, (Bigstick) made completely outrageous statements to my customer in my forum, (which in my opinion he did with intended malice) that he knew was completely untrue. He is not man enough to apologize to me or at the very least admit he was wrong. Nor can he even back up his statements now in this open debate that he claimed he started in the first place.

I did not put the words in his mouth. He did that all by himself. This is the honest debate that he claims he wanted. So why is he not making his case intead of playing the victim here?:-({|=


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

Folks, let's not spoil this discussion by making any more further personal remarks. Amidst this heated debate, there is tons of exceptional information here about Emersed and Submersed HC. Let's keep the dialogue polite and informative. We can all have different experiences and opinions. Does it matter if HC is started emersed vs submersed? I don't know...I haven't heard from enough experiences to fullly decide.

-John N.


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