# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Is this possible or just a fantasy?



## phishluvr (May 29, 2005)

This tank is incredible and I really want to do something along the same style with discus. Is it possible with a natural setup? Is the lighting requirement too high? the plants too little?


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## IndianaSam (Mar 25, 2005)

In my opinion it's not possible with a natural aquarium. Diana herself has stated that the natural aquarium strategy is not recommended for "highly aquascaped" aquariums.

The plants that are attached to the wood would probably do well in a natural aquarium, but the glossostigma and hairgrass probably wouldn't do that well.


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## imported_russell (Sep 14, 2004)

it might be possible if you did it with a different foreground plant such as java moss or somthing.


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

Adult discus might be able to tolerate it, for a period at least, but don't try to raise juvenile discus in it. You will end up with ugly stunted discus, if they can live through it. Discus do not tolerate no/little water change well, unless the bioload is extremely low, far lower than the typical 10gallon/discus. You can possibly try it at 50gallon/fish, I guess. I agree with one saying Diana often uses, something like "let fish be your guide, if they lose appetite, then you know water quality is bad". Discus let you know pretty quickly.


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## phishluvr (May 29, 2005)

> Originally posted by russell:
> it might be possible if you did it with a different foreground plant such as java moss or somthing.


that's what I was thinking too. If there were plant substitutes to achieve the same carpet look, would such a minimalistic setup be enough plant biomass to offset algae & maintain a balanced environment?

Shalu, I've always heard the same about discus and water changes... Some say only bare bottom tank s with daily water changes or weekly 90%







changes is the only way to grow healthy discus.

But then I've been reading lately about natural planted aquariums & discus. (for example, see the recent thread here at http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f...6048124/m/3751005351 )

So, I'm trying to gather some more info from as many places as possible to see what may or may not be possible.

I'd like to find a balance between a peaceful and comfortable home for the discus and also a healthy one that won't stunt their growth. Toss in my desire to have a minimalist style... and well, maybe it's too much a fantasy.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Dear phishluvr,

I'm afraid I can't see the picture, so I can't comment on it. I can say, however, that in my experience, Hairgrass and _Glossostigma_ do well in my natural tanks. They don't grow as fast as they would in a high-tech tank, but they are as healthy as any I've ever seen. My tanks with these plants do have window light and more than 2wpg, however, so they would not be classed as low light setups. I started off with three individual _Glossostigma_ plants two years ago, and put them in an aquarium outside that I use for growing plant supplies for new aquariums. From these three little pairs of leaves, I have grown enough Glosso to plant three new tanks with more than 100 plants each. I don't think that more "difficult" plants do badly in natural aquariums by default.

On the topic of aquascaping, I think that it is possible in natural aquariums. Sure, you can't carefully plan your arrangement, pick a few species, and be sure that they will grow, but it is possible, with time and a lot of patience, to create a pleasing aquascape. You just have to approach it from a different angle. It seems to me that aquascaping a natural aquarium is similar to landscaping a garden; you have to work out by trial and error which plants suit your soil and climate before you can design your garden. If you follow Diana's recommendation to plant as many species as possible, you can then plan your aquascape around those that do best, and use cuttings and babies from them to fill it in.

In my new tank I planned roughly where I wanted plant types to go, and then planted a number of alternatives in each place. I'm really enjoying watching a lovely picture evolve with a little trimming and rearranging here and there.

From Alex.


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by phishluvr:
> But then I've been reading lately about natural planted aquariums & discus. (for example, see the recent thread here at http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f...6048124/m/3751005351 )


hahaha, magicmagni is keeping a HIGH-TECH discus tank, that I know. So do I. He does not do DAILY water changes like folks with bare bottom tanks, but he performs weekly water changes like most (non-natural) planted tank people do. I keep more discus in the tank, and have to do 2x weekly water changes to keep water quality in top shape.


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## phishluvr (May 29, 2005)

Thanks to everyone who've responded so far with comments.











> hahaha, magicmagni is keeping a HIGH-TECH discus tank, that I know.


Since it was in the El Natural forum, I assumed it was a low-tech setup. this is too bad. From the discussion, I was getting my hopes up that a balance between water changes and natural aquariums could be reached. I'm not through researching tho... Diana was a lone voice not too long ago about using soil as a substrate!

*Alex*, I can't see the pic on my screen either at first. But, if you right-mouse click then select 'view image' It will open, then click the back button to return to discussion and the picture should be there too.

I've been looking at some plant substitutes and have found these as a possible ground cover:

Hemianthus callitrichoides (looks & grows somewhat like glosso)
Marsilea drumondii (fuzzy clover)

For the grass and some other plant interest: eleocharis acicularis, anubias barteri v. nana 'petite' and hydrocotyle verticillata.

Anyone have any experience with any of these, especially the groundcovers? (in a natural tank)


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## imported_shalu (Feb 13, 2004)

ok, I see the pic, it is from Amano's book







To tell you the truth, glosso is a pita to maintain in a high tech tank, because it grows too fast. So I keep it in my low tech shrimp tank, NO CO2 supplement, it grows and spreads very slowly, but no maintanance, perfect.









Discus tank with no water change(not necessarily soil based) HAS been done, but like I said, it can not support as high bioload as we typically like in our tanks. Tom Barr has maintained discus tank that way, he said they even spawned in the tank. But you must have few fish, large tank full of plants(I think he might have even used external terrestial plant filters).


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

I still can't see the picture. Which _Nature Aquarium World_ book is it from, and which page number? I've got the books so I can have a look if I know which page.

I have never grown _Hemianthus callitrichoides_ or _Marsilea drumondii_. I do have _M. crenata_ growing in one of my tanks. It seems happy with low light (it's under some stem plants), but it grows unbelievably slowly - one leaf per month! I've heard that _M. drumondii_ grows faster submersed than other _Marsilea_ species 'though. As I said earlier, Hairgrass (_Eleocharis acicularis_) does well for me. I have a _Hydrocotyle_ species, but I don't know which one. It does alright, but doesn't grow as a ground cover.

Some other ground cover plants that grow well in my natural tanks:

_Crassula helmsii_ - a fast-growing, tiny-leaved, bright green stem plant that can easily be pruned to any height.

_Lilaeopsis brasilensis_ - I got a small pot of this plant three months ago, and I cannot believe how fast it's spreading!

_Lilaeopsis polyantha_ - I was given some of this plant recently, and it's also going berserk. It's more delicate-looking than _L. brasilensis_ and a lighter green.

From Alex.


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## Miss Fishy (May 13, 2006)

Swannee kindly sent me the picture, and I had a look at it in _Nature Aquarium World_. If you actually had the same size tank - 2590 litres (685 gallons) - you could follow Shalu's recommendation of 50 gallons per fish and still have 13 Discus! I assume you were thinking of using a smaller tank 'though!









Perhaps this layout would work if you had fast-growing stem plants and emergent plants in the back corner instead of the _Cryptocorynes_, and floating plants on the surface? That way you would get more growth to prevent algae but still have the same basic look. As long as you can find carpet plants that like your tank, I can't see why it wouldn't work.

My newest tank looks a little like this tank. It has a topsoil substrate, 2.8wpg Cool White fluorescent and window light. The main plants are _Glossostigma elatinoides_, _Eleocharis acicularis_, _Liliaeopsis brasilensis_, _L. polyantha_, _Vallisneria spiralis_, _Lemna minor_, Java Moss and emergent _Limnophila sessiliflora_. It's only been running for two and a half months so it's hard to say how it will turn out, but so far there is no algae and the carpet plants are filling in very well.

From Alex.


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