# Using LED lights vs CFL's? Lighting questions.



## Moose-Factory

Hi, I'm trying to set up a 110 gallon planted aquarium using Diana' Walsteads natural method. 

My tank dimensions are: L 72' x D 18" x H 15" placed in a northern light room with no direct sunlight but a window nearby.

I like the idea of using just regular bulb sockets for lighting as they are cheap, quick, and easy to replace, and this is why I'm set on ordinary clamp light sockets instead of aquarium strip lights.

With that in mind, my initial thought was to run a series of clamp lights on the back of the tank with CFL bulbs. I'd use either several 13-Watt CFL's (60w incandescent equivalent) or perhaps use fewer 23 Watt CFL's (100w incandescent equivalent).

However, lighting technology has come a long way since I set up my old 55 gal in a similar way years ago. Mainly, LED bulbs that screw into regular sockets are now ubiquitous and look so much better than CFL's. Diana's book came out before these even existed, so there's no guidance on how an LED 60w equivalent bulb compares to a 13-w (60w equivalent) CFL bulb, and how LED's could be used to grow aquatic plants.

Can these new LED bulbs be used for my aquarium in the manner I've described? 

How many clamp lights and what size or wattage (or incandescent wattage equivalent) bulb should I use for a tank of my size? How do LED's overall compare to CFL's for aquatic growing? Or should I just stick with using CFL bulbs? Thanks!!


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## Moose-Factory

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'll simplify the question a little. Has anyone used an LED bulb in place of a CFL bulb in their tank. How do the bulbs compare for the plants? Thanks


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## RedCloud

I use the CFLs with t5 lighting. But I stopped by and checked some out the other day because I thought of the same thing. But I didn't get any because I did not want to spend $25 on an experiment. They didn't have the kelvin rating on some of them and the others were the soft white kind that are kind of worthless. I would just go with the CFLs

Obsession is a matter of opinion


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## Michael

Many of my tanks are set up with CFLs like yours. I haven't replaced any with LEDs, but I did test PAR with our meter on some low-voltage LEDs we have as house lighting. Close to the LED the PAR was surprisingly high, so the screw-in LEDs might be feasible for aquarium lighting.

Please let us know what you find out!


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## FlyingHellFish

I been pimping this picture around so much, apologizes if this gets stale.

ADA 60P w/ HC Cuba (Philips CFL) vs Glosso (MicMol Leds)










Way more controls with LED, better colour rendering and in my opinion, a higher intense "glow". If you're doing a Walstead, it would be better to turn down the power.

2x 23w 6500K Kitchen CFL would work for you, but it depends how high you have it. Keep in mind, the depth of the tank lowers the CFL by a lot, an unfortunate downside to cheap CFL.

There is also "Full Spectrum" CFL, which was faster at making my plants red. The Verilux full spectrum bulb turn out way better than my kitchen philips bulb.

In conclusion..... you can't go wrong. Unless maybe if you use those incandescent bulbs...


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## TropTrea

On a bases of amount of light per watt of power with Compacts your fairly fixed at the same level since they have not nade any advances in CFL lighting in many years. With LED's even the weakest cheapest LED's are giving you the equivelent as far as PAR per Gallon and with the newest innovations in LED's you can get up to 3 times the light per gallon. 

But the overall spectrum is much much more flexable with LED lighting. But with your approach of having LED's in the reflectors your tanking about spending a lot of money or going with very limited offerings with LED's. 

If it were my tank and you wanted to go with a DIY project then I would approach it completely differently. For started I'd build my own system with two strips of LED's for even light distribution. So a rough cost estimate would be

Two strips of 1" X 2" Channel aluminum about 72" long. ($36 to $48 dependent on source)
24 Cree 3 or 5 Watt LED's LED's (Cost depenent on source $72 to $96)
Two Meanwell LCD 30 700 drivers (Cost dependent on source $25 to $40)
Wire and theorem epoxy plus misc hardware $20 average.

With this set up you would have 48 Watts of LED lighting that is equivalent to about 72 Watts of Compact Florescent if not even more more light. If you wanted more light after this you could simply change drivers at roughly $25 each.

The nice think about LED's is if you want to change something it is not going to break the bank. For more light you could change to one 1050 ma driver would up you to 60 Watts, two 1050ma drivers would up it to 72 Watts or with all 1500ma drivers you would have 120 Watts of LED lighting. 

If you dislike the spectrum you can change out individual LED's. Changing out even 6 of the 24 LED's would cause a big spectrum difference at a cost of under $25.00.

What I truly love about DIY LED strips is that they can be changed so quickly and inexpensively, compared to other lighting systems. Then there is also the lower cost of building them compared to some other options. The only draw back is how much you value your time to build them. But then again this is a hobby not a business.


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## rezend

I had a kind of El natural tank with LED stripes. Bought them petty cheap in Germany. I agree they have many advantages, including the waterproof version available, the lower heating and the versatility: you can attach them to basically anything.
I made a simple wooden support for my riparium that gave it a charming lightweight look:






With the same stripes I could grow some easy plants in another setup, like amazon sword and crypt parva (quite slow though). I couldn't notice any more algae than I had before with t8 tubes.

EDIT: never played with real 1W+ LED before, because they are still to expensive for my needs. :-(


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## TropTrea

rezend said:


> EDIT: never played with real 1W+ LED before, because they are still to expensive for my needs. :-(


When I started with the 1 Watt LED's they were barely better than the Florescent with cheap reflectors but now the higher wattage LEDs are not even a close comparison. If you get one of the 10 Watt LED's for $6.00 it will put out more light then 10 of the old 1 Watt did. However the ones rated at 5 watts max only cost $3.00 to $4.00 each and if you run them at 2 to 3 watts they will put out 6 to 8 times the amount of light as the old 1 watt did.

Personally I prefer running them around 2 watts each as then I can put in more LED's and avoid some harsh shadows that you can get with only a few point light sources. Also when you start getting to 5 or more Watts per LED you have to worry about heat sinking the LEDs diligently.

Unfortunately with LED's the hotter you run them the less light you get per watt. That loss of efficiency gets lost in the form of heat. So a typical LED running a two Watts might give you 280 lumns but jacking it up to ten watts will not give you 1,400 lumens but instead only about 900 lumens. That difference in 500 lumens loss is in the form of heat.


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## Moose-Factory

TropTrea said:


> On a bases of amount of light per watt of power with Compacts your fairly fixed at the same level since they have not nade any advances in CFL lighting in many years. With LED's even the weakest cheapest LED's are giving you the equivelent as far as PAR per Gallon and with the newest innovations in LED's you can get up to 3 times the light per gallon.
> 
> But the overall spectrum is much much more flexable with LED lighting. But with your approach of having LED's in the reflectors your tanking about spending a lot of money or going with very limited offerings with LED's.
> 
> If it were my tank and you wanted to go with a DIY project then I would approach it completely differently. For started I'd build my own system with two strips of LED's for even light distribution. So a rough cost estimate would be
> 
> Two strips of 1" X 2" Channel aluminum about 72" long. ($36 to $48 dependent on source)
> 24 Cree 3 or 5 Watt LED's LED's (Cost depenent on source $72 to $96)
> Two Meanwell LCD 30 700 drivers (Cost dependent on source $25 to $40)
> Wire and theorem epoxy plus misc hardware $20 average.
> 
> With this set up you would have 48 Watts of LED lighting that is equivalent to about 72 Watts of Compact Florescent if not even more more light. If you wanted more light after this you could simply change drivers at roughly $25 each.
> 
> The nice think about LED's is if you want to change something it is not going to break the bank. For more light you could change to one 1050 ma driver would up you to 60 Watts, two 1050ma drivers would up it to 72 Watts or with all 1500ma drivers you would have 120 Watts of LED lighting.
> 
> If you dislike the spectrum you can change out individual LED's. Changing out even 6 of the 24 LED's would cause a big spectrum difference at a cost of under $25.00.
> 
> What I truly love about DIY LED strips is that they can be changed so quickly and inexpensively, compared to other lighting systems. Then there is also the lower cost of building them compared to some other options. The only draw back is how much you value your time to build them. But then again this is a hobby not a business.


Thanks for the ideas and feedback. I'm intrigued by your DIY light-strip idea, but to be honest my knowledge of lights and electronics is truly zilch. I know nothing of how to set up a "1050ma driver" with custom built strip lights (or even what "1050m" means, or what "PAR" / gallon means), and don't know how to begin building such a setup as you refer to. Would you happen to have a link to a totally newb friendly article with how to build a set up like you're talking about?

Otherwise, to get your 48 watts of LED's you suggest, what would be wrong with hanging 5 clamp light reflectors each with a 9.5w Cree LED bulb?

Costs would be:
5 clamp lights total: $42.20
5 Cree 9.5-watt LED bulbs, total: $54.99
1 power strip / surge protector: $20.

This setup is comparable in price to your suggestion, but would be mind numbingly easy for me to build. Would there be something wrong with such a setup? It wouldn't have the nice, even light distribution yours does, but would there be other problems I haven't thought of? I realize I could be making some rather idiotic assumptions here, but just don't know any better.

Thanks for your help and feedback! Here's a pic of the tank:


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## RedCloud

I don't doubt the advantages of led's and might eventually switch over, but Price is a limiting factor for many that can't afford them or don't want to build them. They both work. I say that you use what you have. I see that you have a brooder lamp and those are very affective, and you have experience with them, so it takes a lot of the guess work out. A great planted tank is picking your battles because so much of it is time consuming and pricey. For me, I just stuck with CFLs because I can get great growth for cheap. CFLs also give me the ability to switch bulbs or add more easily because I use several clip on lamps. Lighting does not need to be as intense with low tech tanks but you can simply add a higher wattage bulb if you want to add co2. I made a video of my tank that has growth from 2 13 watt CFLs and 2 t5s. I also have a brooder lamp with a 43watt bulb hung from a ceiling chain but I never found the need to use it much because my light was sufficient. You could try to use the screw in LEDs on one side and CFLs on the other to see which side you get better growth on. I might just do this, because it would be an experiment that would not break the bank.


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## TropTrea

The problem with the 9.5 Watt Cree screw type bulbs are finding the correct spectrum for the plants. Plus the way those a usualy run is by hanging them for from the ceiling or putting them into ceiling mounted cans.

The used of lower wattage LED's allows you to line them up about 2" above the water surface on a rail which reduces the amount of total wattage your using. 

The further away you get between the light source your target the less light you get. As an example if you have a light 16" from the substrate and have a PAR 50 but move it away to 22" way the PAR drops already to 25, and moving it to 32" away means you have a PAR around 12. There fore you need much more wattage to compensate for the higher you go with the light source. 

I do have a prepared article for a magazine that I'm waiting to get released. Once it is released then I will put it on this site if possible . It covers the bases of LED lighting for fresh water tanks. And the basics of construction.


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## Moose-Factory

TropTrea said:


> The problem with the 9.5 Watt Cree screw type bulbs are finding the correct spectrum for the plants. Plus the way those a usualy run is by hanging them for from the ceiling or putting them into ceiling mounted cans.
> 
> The used of lower wattage LED's allows you to line them up about 2" above the water surface on a rail which reduces the amount of total wattage your using.
> 
> The further away you get between the light source your target the less light you get. As an example if you have a light 16" from the substrate and have a PAR 50 but move it away to 22" way the PAR drops already to 25, and moving it to 32" away means you have a PAR around 12. There fore you need much more wattage to compensate for the higher you go with the light source.
> 
> I do have a prepared article for a magazine that I'm waiting to get released. Once it is released then I will put it on this site if possible . It covers the bases of LED lighting for fresh water tanks. And the basics of construction.


Thanks for the Feedback TropTrea. I agree that looking for the right kind of screw in LED bulb for aquatic plants has been somewhat of a headache.

However, today I did find these LED bulbs, rated at 15w PAR 30 5000k. And also these, rated at 20.5w PAR38 4000k.

For my 110gal (L72"xD18"xH15") I could mount either 4 of the 15w PAR30's, or 3 of the 20.5w PAR38's, with the lights mounted like this guys aquarium. His plants seem to be doing fine with plants on the substrate doing well.

His mounting method would allow me to position my reflectors at almost any height I wanted over the substrate, with the only limitation being how well the light spread and diffused (presumably it'd be more undesirably "spot" like the lower I had them mounted).

I'm tempted to try this as it has the advantage of being easy and I would know how to build it, if you or anyone else thinks the bulbs I found would work and could recommend a good height to mount them at. My tank is 15" high, and in theory I could mount the lights as low as 17" from the floor of the tank (15" above the substrate), and could obviously mount them much higher if the PAR rating of the bulbs allowed for it (though I have no idea of the ratio of how PAR reduces with height like you do).

If you still think this is a really bad idea, I could wait until you post your article you mentioned on how to build the the setup you are recommending, though I am eager to get going on this ; ). Thanks for all the help!


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## TropTrea

This could work. The bulbs claim that they are 15 Watt equivalent to 90 watts (incandescent) Which would make them equivalent to about 45 Watts florescent. 

My fer with this set up is that the further the lights are from the object it is lighting the less actual light you get on the object. With 180 watts of florescent lighting 3" above the surface you would have loads of light on your tank. But at 31 from the lights to the substrate I would be afraid it would not be enough. Therefore I'd use probably 6 of these rather than 4 on your tank.

As far as single source lighting I do find that 5,000K and even 4,500K LED's are better for plant growth than most so called daylight LED's. But I have also found a combination of both 4,500K and 6,200K is even better. 


Cost wise I see $32.00 per bulb X 4 = $128.00 Plus the reflectors at $10.00 minimum X 4 = $40.00 Plus another $40.00 for getting them mounted like in the picture so your already over $200.00 60 Watts of LED Lighting.

DIY Star mounted LED's of the equivalent with 5 Watt LED's would be 6 LED's at top $4.50 each = $27.00 The DRiver an APC-60-1500 for $20.00. Heat Sink Mounting rail combo $21.00. Mounting brackets to raise it above the tank $10.00 Misc wire and solder and thermo Epoxy $20.00. Final estimate $98.00. 

I would spend a little more though and use 14 LED's and run them on a 1050ma driver for 3 Watts each and a total of 42 watts for an extra $45.00. Still less expensive than your system.


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## AEWHistory

Moose-Factory said:


> Thanks for the ideas and feedback. I'm intrigued by your DIY light-strip idea, but to be honest my knowledge of lights and electronics is truly zilch. I know nothing of how to set up a "1050ma driver" with custom built strip lights (or even what "1050m" means, or what "PAR" / gallon means), and don't know how to begin building such a setup as you refer to. Would you happen to have a link to a totally newb friendly article with how to build a set up like you're talking about?
> 
> Otherwise, to get your 48 watts of LED's you suggest, what would be wrong with hanging 5 clamp light reflectors each with a 9.5w Cree LED bulb?
> 
> Costs would be:
> 5 clamp lights total: $42.20
> 5 Cree 9.5-watt LED bulbs, total: $54.99
> 1 power strip / surge protector: $20.
> 
> This setup is comparable in price to your suggestion, but would be mind numbingly easy for me to build. Would there be something wrong with such a setup? It wouldn't have the nice, even light distribution yours does, but would there be other problems I haven't thought of? I realize I could be making some rather idiotic assumptions here, but just don't know any better.
> 
> Thanks for your help and feedback! Here's a pic of the tank:


That, my friend, is a gorgeous tank. If I may briefly derail your thread: where did you get it? I love the dimensions! Nice height and depth. This seems like the perfect planted aquarium.

As an aside, I've used those clip on lights for years and I've had tremendous success growing plants out. That said, I was usually not finicky at what I was growing. To put it another way, much of what I was growing would fall under the easy to medium range. I have no idea how this approach would work for something like Erios, for example, but if you're looking at a typical assortment of stems, anubias, etc. then I think you'd be fine. If anything you might find yourself with too much growth. I know I did at times.


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## TropTrea

The big thing I see is the bulbs you linked to are 2,700K while they do make a 5,000K the price jumps up an extra $20. When I ran florescent lighting I had my best results with a mix of 5,000K and 6,500K. With my Start mounted LED's I'm getting the best results with a combo of 4,000K and 6,200K. Since the 5,000K are mid way between the two I would hope you would get similar results.

Let me try a little brightness comparison here. 
5 of the 9.5 Watt LED bulbs at 5,000K yield @ 850 Lumens each = 4250 Lumens

Aim 4250 Lumens with XP-G2-R5 LED's
Running at 700 ma or 2 Watts each = 254 Lumens each so you need 16
Running at 1050 ma or 3 Watts each = 338 Lumens each so you need 12
Running at 1,500 ma each or 5 Watts each =458 Lumens each so you need 9

Cost comparison for just the bulbs and driver when needed

5 9.5Watt bulbs 5,000K = $57.00 using 47.5 Watts electricity
16 2 Watt LED's and Driver = $84.00 using 32 Watts electricity
12 3 Watt LED's and Driver = $68.00 using 36 Watts electricity
9 5 Watt LED's and driver = $56.00 using 45 Watts electricity.



Then there is question of personal preference between a tank with harsh shadows or very soft shadows. The less lights sources you put on a tank the more predominant the shadows are. While with multi light sources you get a more even light distribution . I personally like the more even light distribution so I personally would pick the 16 LED's at 2 Watts over the 9 LED's at 5 Watts even though it would cost roughly $28.00 more. 
Actualy on a larger tank like yours I would want to use even more LED's as on my 120 gallon 48" long I'm going with 2 strips of 12 LED's each.


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## Moose-Factory

AEWHistory said:


> That, my friend, is a gorgeous tank. If I may briefly derail your thread: where did you get it? I love the dimensions! Nice height and depth. This seems like the perfect planted aquarium.


Thanks! My last tank, a 55 gallon, was deeper than this but sacrificed a lot of plantable surface area to gain that depth, which I didn't need. I figured a lower profile tank would give me more planting area for the volume. I ordered it from glasscages.

Buuut, speaking of my tank I posted this thread with a glaring error. Mainly, I had said in my original post that my tank volume was *110 gallons*. Well, the dimensions of my tank (L 72' x D 18" x H 15"), does *not* give you a volume of 110 gallons #-o.

I idiotically misread the volume of of my tank and swapped it with the next size up, a tank that's 4" higher than mine, which was a 110 gallon. A tank of my dimensions is actually only a volume of *84 gallons*, so _that may change our lighting calculations for this tank_ and discussion so far.



TropTrea said:


> The big thing I see is the bulbs you linked to are 2,700K while they do make a 5,000K the price jumps up an extra $20. When I ran florescent lighting I had my best results with a mix of 5,000K and 6,500K. With my Start mounted LED's I'm getting the best results with a combo of 4,000K and 6,200K. Since the 5,000K are mid way between the two I would hope you would get similar results.
> 
> Then there is question of personal preference between a tank with harsh shadows or very soft shadows. The less lights sources you put on a tank the more predominant the shadows are. While with multi light sources you get a more even light distribution . I personally like the more even light distribution so I personally would pick the 16 LED's at 2 Watts over the 9 LED's at 5 Watts even though it would cost roughly $28.00 more.
> Actually on a larger tank like yours I would want to use even more LED's as on my 120 gallon 48" long I'm going with 2 strips of 12 LED's each.


Thanks for the feedback again! I do have an update however. I opted against the 9w Cree LED's as they were the wrong color temp, as you say. Instead I decided to go with 5 of the the 15w PAR30 5000k LED floods.

I ultimately decided to use the brooder reflectors, as cost wasn't a concern, I know how to install them, and I like the aesthetic of hanging pendant lights instead of a strip system, especially on such a long rimless / hoodless tank.

Your point about the "spot" effect of the lights is well taken- but fortunately now that I have the lights in hand, I can say that with 5 of them I'm getting a nice even and uninterrupted light along the floor of the tank. I suppose there still could be some "spot" like effects in the water column higher up once I actually get some water in there, but I think such an effect will be within parameters I can live with.

Now, a further question. Given that my tank is actually *84 gallons* (not 110!) how does that change the lighting calculus?

Right now I have the five lights mounted at 25" above the glass floor of the tank (10" above the water level). Will the 5 15w LED's I got be sufficient? Too much now? Not enough? I have to say that the light level and distribution in the tank with them on "looks" about right, but that's hardly scientific! Let me know what you think.

Fortunately if I need to make light level adjustments, I have the lights mounted in such a way that I can raise or lower all 5 lights simultaneously with ease (twisting the rod they're mounted on). Or add or remove another light.

I'll try and post some pictures soon of what I have so far.


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## TropTrea

Moose-Factory said:


> Now, a further question. Given that my tank is actually *84 gallons* (not 110!) how does that change the lighting calculus?
> 
> Right now I have the five lights mounted at 25" above the glass floor of the tank (10" above the water level). Will the 5 15w LED's I got be sufficient? Too much now? Not enough? I have to say that the light level and distribution in the tank with them on "looks" about right, but that's hardly scientific! Let me know what you think.
> 
> Fortunately if I need to make light level adjustments, I have the lights mounted in such a way that I can raise or lower all 5 lights simultaneously with ease (twisting the rod they're mounted on). Or add or remove another light.
> 
> I'll try and post some pictures soon of what I have so far.


There is not accurate way to predict right on numbers because the many variables like efficiency of the reflectors as well as the efficiency of the light bulb and spectrum.

For me as a starting point using LED's on a 84 Gallon tank I'd start with around 45 Watts and be prepared to move it up as hugh as 85 watts dependent on the plant selection

With Compact florescents the numbers go up drasticlt the least I would consider is 85 Watts of lighting and in some cases I can see going as high as 400 Watts. With you 5 X 15 you have 75 Watts as a starting point. So you should be okay as long as you remain low tech and don;t get any light demanding plants.

You also have the option of lowering the lights closer to the surface which is a practice done by CORAL growers in shallow tanks.


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## Moose-Factory

Yeah, I figure as long as a have a somewhat reasonable starting point for my lighting (i.e. nothing that'd be a disaster from the get go), I'm willing to go with it as an experiment and adjust as necessary. So... we'll see how it works!

Here's some pics of what I have now. (Haven't yet cleaned up and tucked away the cords, but I was eager just to see them on!).


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## TropTrea

Warning I hope there is some invisible support of the reflectors other than just the electrical cord. I did this for years with reptile tanks and then I had a cord pull out from the connection dropping the light onto the glass top and blowing out the circuit with a short.


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## Moose-Factory

TropTrea said:


> Warning I hope there is some invisible support of the reflectors other than just the electrical cord. I did this for years with reptile tanks and then I had a cord pull out from the connection dropping the light onto the glass top and blowing out the circuit with a short.


Just by the cords, but:

I now have all the cords plugged into a GFCI outlet and both knotted on the bar and locked up with zip ties; plugged, unplugged, yanking on them, etc the things don't budge a millimeter ; )


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## dirtmonkey

These are the 90 & 75 watt equivalent, GE & Phillips par38 5000K "daylight" floodlights for 20-something dollars. Three over this little 10 gallon cutting grow out tank is too much light; if I didn't have CO2 in this one I'd use one or two and raise them up quite a bit. Even with CO2 I've got blue gladware lids under them now, and when it failed I got an instant huge algae bloom. They punch light down to the bottom easily and color up red plants quickly. The Phillips look a little warmer in color than the GE.

I'm thinking of hanging a few up over a 40B for a lower light tank, and I'm sure the plants will be fine with them.


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## Moose-Factory

dirtmonkey said:


> These are the 90 & 75 watt equivalent, GE & Phillips par38 5000K "daylight" floodlights for 20-something dollars. Three over this little 10 gallon cutting grow out tank is too much light; if I didn't have CO2 in this one I'd use one or two and raise them up quite a bit. Even with CO2 I've got blue gladware lids under them now, and when it failed I got an instant huge algae bloom. They punch light down to the bottom easily and color up red plants quickly. The Phillips look a little warmer in color than the GE.


Great to see, thanks for sharing. But wow! 3x of those 15 w LED floods on a 10 gallon? I can see why you installed the shades! That said, even if yours has too much light, you're using 3 on a 10 g while I'm using 5 on an 85g, and mine are mounted a little higher than yours... maybe I won't have enough light.


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## dirtmonkey

Moose-Factory said:


> Great to see, thanks for sharing. But wow! 3x of those 15 w LED floods on a 10 gallon? I can see why you installed the shades! That said, even if yours has too much light, you're using 3 on a 10 g while I'm using 5 on an 85g, and mine are mounted a little higher than yours... maybe I won't have enough light.


Yes, that tank is definitely not 'El Natural' with that light, plus fertilizer dosing and CO2. It's dirt, and will become a Walstadish shrimp tank later on, but for now I use it mainly to get cuttings growing up and multiplying fast while the _Eleocharis_ finishes filling in. I basically just showed it to say that these 5000K self contained arrays do work well for plants. Everything I've put under them has been OK with the spectrum; floating, rosette, stems and all. And algae, that one time. One advantage to these is that it's very easy to arrange and rearrange them to adjust for intensity and spread. They are focused enough that the inverse square law doesn't apply (and the wpg is made almost meaningless).

They aren't necessarily cheaper as mentioned before, but they are quick, convenient, infinitely adjustable (even dimmable), the spectrum is good enough, and best of all I can get them at the grocery or hardware store. I'll likely be keeping some around for a long time just for that utility and convenience. The 3700K one I picked up by accident might find a good use in a portable algae scrubber.


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## Moose-Factory

dirtmonkey said:


> They aren't necessarily cheaper as mentioned before, but they are quick, convenient, infinitely adjustable (even dimmable), the spectrum is good enough, and best of all I can get them at the grocery or hardware store. I'll likely be keeping some around for a long time just for that utility and convenience.


Yes, this is precisely what attracted me to these bulbs as opposed to other setups. Glad to see you're getting good use out of them. My current set up will probably require adjustment, but as you say I can always adjust the height of my bulbs, or if too much light is a problem maybe I could get a plug in dimmer for total convenience.

I love the idea that if one of these goes out, I'm a trip to the hardware store away, or don't have to wait on some special mail order light to arrive. But, speaking of which, how is the longevity of these things? Does their light output degrade over time like CFL's? I think I read somewhere that light output on certain flourescent fixtures started to deteriorate after 6 months or so. Is there some similar effect for LED bulbs or are they exempt?


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## TropTrea

Moose-Factory said:


> Yes, this is precisely what attracted me to these bulbs as opposed to other setups. Glad to see you're getting good use out of them. My current set up will probably require adjustment, but as you say I can always adjust the height of my bulbs, or if too much light is a problem maybe I could get a plug in dimmer for total convenience.
> 
> I love the idea that if one of these goes out, I'm a trip to the hardware store away, or don't have to wait on some special mail order light to arrive. But, speaking of which, how is the longevity of these things? Does their light output degrade over time like CFL's? I think I read somewhere that light output on certain flourescent fixtures started to deteriorate after 6 months or so. Is there some similar effect for LED bulbs or are they exempt?


High powered LED's have been around long enough for long term studies yet. The studies from some CREE XP-E LED's that have been on the market for about 7 years are last claimed to have less than 5% decrease in output in 40,000 hours of continuous operation. There is also some specs on frequency shifting but the interesting thing with LED's is they tend to shift to blue end of the spectrum rather than the red like florescent bulbs do from age. This with the "white" LED's is because the LED itself only creates blue light which is then filtered through a phosphorous layer that allows a percentage of the blue light through and fluoresces the rest in the red and green part of the spectrum. The phosphorous layer is what deteriorates similar to florescent bulbs only much slower yet proportionate to the heat. Good heat sinks is what limits and slows this shifting as well as running them below maximum current.

Since the XP-E leds came out they introduced new series XP-E2, XP-G, XP-G2, XM-L, XM-L2 which are more efficient and can even handle higher current that the old XP-E's. The XM-L2 LED's can actually run at 10 Watts but when run in the 3 Watt range produce roughly 50% more light than the old XP-E LED's and have considerably longer life spans at the lower wattage. If you crank them up to 10 Watts they are brighter than most car headlights.

The life expectancy for commercial usage of LED's is considered 5 years of constant usage. So a LED should last about 10 times as long as a florescent bulb minimum for our usage. The only failures I have seen on LED's were either poor mounting to the heat sink or impact breakage. I have been using them for 6 years and will not go back to anything else for fresh water usage.


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## Moose-Factory

I just wanted to update this long dead thread with the final results of my efforts! Here's an image of the tank I started this thread for, one year later.

It was quite the experiment, but I haven't really had to change much of anything with the lighting since I planted the tank. Hopefully this thread will be helpful to anyone who's been thinking of trying brooder reflectors with standard LED flood bulbs.


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## abak

Wow what a beautiful tank! Lucky fishies that live there


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## Michael

Success! Thanks for the update.


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## dwalstad

Moose-Factory said:


> Hi, I'm trying to set up a 110 gallon planted aquarium using Diana' Walstads natural method.
> However, lighting technology has come a long way since I set up my old 55 gal in a similar way years ago. Mainly, LED bulbs that screw into regular sockets are now ubiquitous and look so much better than CFL's. Diana's book came out before these even existed, so there's no guidance on how an LED 60w equivalent bulb compares to a 13-w (60w equivalent) CFL bulb, and how LED's could be used to grow aquatic plants.
> 
> Can these new LED bulbs be used for my aquarium in the manner I've described?
> 
> How many clamp lights and what size or wattage (or incandescent wattage equivalent) bulb should I use for a tank of my size? How do LED's overall compare to CFL's for aquatic growing? Or should I just stick with using CFL bulbs? Thanks!!


I appreciated the information in this thread on LEDs. I have not had any experience with LEDs, but I cannot imagine why they would not work equal or better to CFLs, tungsten, or candle light. Now I know why I can't sell my old fluorescent lighting fixtures. 

BTW, your tank is beautiful.


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