# trumpet snail die-off



## ctyank (Oct 23, 2006)

Got a problem. I'm experiencing a shrimp (cherry and amano) and trumpet snail die-off. All other snails (nerite snails and prolific pest pond snails) and fish are fine. Because it is only the trumpet snails, I suspect substrate problems. I was doing some aquascaping last night and when disrupting certain sections of substrate (Amazonia), I released a fair quantity of gas bubbles, many approaching 1/2 inch in diameter. I'd otherwise guess the gas was CO2 from decaying plant matter, but with the substrate dweller die-off, I'm wondering if this gas might not be more hazardous... like maybe H2S (anaerobic substrate).

The tank is a 180G (6'x2'x2') with fairly deep substrate (3"-4"), CO2 fertilization and lots of light.

Any thoughts? Thanks. - Chris


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## NeonFlux (May 15, 2008)

Hmm this is rather the strange case... I'm not sure if it's the anaerobic gases. The MTS should be hardy enough to handle most problems. RCS are quite hardy as well. Weird lol. Have you possibly added any medication to treat your fish for diseases previously?


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## redchigh (Jul 10, 2010)

I'd assume something new too... perhaps your city is adding more chloramine or copper..

If the bubbles were hydrogen sulfide, you'd know from the rotten-egg smell.


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## ctyank (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks for the input folks. It IS weird. It killed every last Trumpet snail (easily hundreds) and didn't affect the Pond snails at all. A few cherries survived. Left is one female and a half dozen males. There is one surviving Amano male and one female malasian shrimp left as well. The cherry population had really grown before this. I thought I had a couple hundred. Really disappointing.

No medications in this tank ever. Other than plant ferts (KNO3, K2SO4, Flourish) no additives. Chelated iron is a relatively new additive for me. http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/iron-chelate.html

The city added a bunch of chlorine this Spring with the intent of flushing out anything that is building up in the pipes. Heaven knows what got released... I treat with Prime, but it can't catch everything. However, I tend to discount this possibility as the pond snails were unaffected.

One other guess I have is maybe low oxygen levels at the bottom of the tank? I have very little surface tension in the tank... even overnight. Since the fish were fine I figured that there was sufficent oxygen.

Sulfides seem to be the best guess. I definitely can believe that the substrate compacted enough to turn good chunks of it anaerobic. But no rotten egg smell in the tank. No cloudiness. No fish die-off.

I grabbed this from the 'net:
_As a generalization, aerobic nitrification takes place in the top 1-2 inches of substrate (deeper in courser substrate, or more shallow in fine sand). While nitrogen fixing anaerobic bacteria oxidize nitrates in an area of 2-4 inches of substrate (again deeper for course media, more shallow for fine sand). Finally Sulfur fixing anaerobic bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfides generally live in substrate over 3-4 inches in depth.
This generalization can very by substrate size, amount of plant roots and depth there-of as well as how deep certain worms, copepods dig into the substrate. Use of airline deep under sand beds over 5-6 inches that products very limited and controlled bubbles can allow for more de-nitrification while further limiting sulfur reduction._

So my substrate depth ranges from 3-5 inches. Over three years I've had Amazonia, the substrate has broken down some and there is a significant amount of silt. This lends itself to compaction. The substrate size then becomes very, very smail.

Maybe I can capture some of those released bubbles in a cup and try to smell the collected gas.

If it is sulfides, I guess I need to reduce the substrate depth? Ugh. I hate the idea of tearing everything out.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

Is the deep substrate only in the back? Perhaps more heavy rooted plants would prevent a total re-scape. Sorry to hear about the die-off.


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## ctyank (Oct 23, 2006)

I wasn't all that creative with the substrate layout. It is around 3" in front and the increase to 5" in back is more or less linear.

I am going to try a couple tests tonight. I will poke around in the substrate and see if I have significantly more bubbles in the deeper substrate. I also will try to collct some of the gas in an upside down glass. Once collected and concentrated if I flip the glass under my nose I should smell it if it is H2S.

Subsequent to my last post I spoke with Frank at ADA USA (in Houston). They have a very large display tank where the substrate STARTS at 5" and approaches the top of the tank in back. However, they break this tank down every 18 months or so and start over with new substrate. Frank suggested that at three years I might be approaching the end of the useful life of the Amazonia substrate. Now, he suggested that NOT because of the physical breakdown of the granules, but because of nutrient depletion. He used a phrase like "it loses it's oomph." His solution to that problem is to simply add more (new) substrate.

That addresses nutrient issues, but probably worsens the potential compaction problem.

As for thicker-rooted plants, I am a collector rather than an aquascaper. I have a little bit of everything in this tank. So... I think I need another approach. I am thinking that I may simply vacuum out the silt and level out the remainder. If that leaves me with more than 3.5", then I can remove some. I'll then re-introduce trumpets and feed them (zucchini) like crazy. I guess a big re-build every three years isn't unreasonable.


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## ctyank (Oct 23, 2006)

Well, I tested as I said I would. There are a lot of big gas bubbles in the substrate. But only in the deeper gravel... about halfway back. I did capture a couple of cubic inches of gas, but I could discern no odor when I flipped the glass. If the gas is either CO2 or H2S, then I think it has to be CO2. Any other possibilities?


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## ctyank (Oct 23, 2006)

Could large CO2 bubbles in the substrate be toxic to Trumpet snails?


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## willow52 (Mar 30, 2008)

I experienced trumpet die off about two years ago. Plants fine fish fine, pond snails fine. Never figured out why. Pond snails never got to be much of an issue so I never got more, pond snails definitely had thin shells, but never over populated..

Fast forward to now.
New location, new tank, new substrate ( Flourite both places).
Been running for nine months.

Six weeks ago I got some Bumble bee (assassin) snails, as the pond snails where getting out of hand. They seemed fine, doing their job, then this morning I found three empty shells.

perimeters are all fine, GH DH higher here, pH 6.4, Pond snails have nice hard shells. plants fine, fish fine, running DIY CO2, bubbler at night.

The bumble Bees also spend a lot of time 'sleeping' half buried. 

Maybe they're starving?
Doesn't seem probable.

Copper in the substrate?

Has to be substrate related......


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

ctyank said:


> Got a problem. I'm experiencing a shrimp (cherry and amano) and trumpet snail die-off. All other snails (nerite snails and prolific pest pond snails) and fish are fine. Because it is only the trumpet snails, I suspect substrate problems. I was doing some aquascaping last night and when disrupting certain sections of substrate (Amazonia), I released a fair quantity of gas bubbles, many approaching 1/2 inch in diameter. I'd otherwise guess the gas was CO2 from decaying plant matter, but with the substrate dweller die-off, I'm wondering if this gas might not be more hazardous... like maybe H2S (anaerobic substrate).
> 
> The tank is a 180G (6'x2'x2') with fairly deep substrate (3"-4"), CO2 fertilization and lots of light.
> 
> Any thoughts? Thanks. - Chris


What kind of fish do you have in your tank? I have four angel fish in my tank and I cannot keep any kind of snail in it. They didn't bother the snails at first but over time they learned to flip them over and suck out the tasty parts.

Also maybe you have some substrate predators like leeches. Put an overturned plate on the bottom of your tank for a day or two then turn it over. You may also want to take a section of your substrate out and examine it with a magnifying glass.


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