# New tank worries.



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So I had the mixed blessing of finding a lovely 36 gal. tank for free at the same time as I was moving. Because I already had an el natural 10 gal. that was in need of moving, I established my new tank in a hurry. The consequences of this included using Stress Zyme to boost the filter which I later learned to be counter productive in a non-planted tank.  I sanitized all the equipment and tank, set up the equipment/substrate/added water, let it sit for a few days, added the few plants I already had (also sanitized in a 5% bleach solution for 4 mins. due to earlier hair algae infestation in said 10 gal.) then added 3 Otto Cats and a spotted Cory cat (also already had). This set-up sat for a week, then I added a ton of new plants. 
I also added a half-dose of liquid fertilizer to get things started. Bad idea?  I've never set up a new-new planted tank so I feel a little insecure about my knowledge. I've been re-reading Diane's book to check myself but I haven't found much of what I was looking for in it. The ammonia and nitrite has definitely spiked (though all fish/plants seem to be doing well) as per the nitrogen cycle. 
Tank stats: small CO2 fermentor, 96 watts of light (36 gal.)- maybe overkill but the lamp was a bargain- potting soil/gravel substrate with a handful of flourite substrate mixed in (my own experiment). Should I expect problems? Thanks!


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> Should I expect problems? Thanks!


Hi, Emily,

Let us know in a week or two how everything is going. If you don't have any problems then the answer to your question is "No." If you do have problems then the answer is "Yes, of course!"

The only things that I would have done differently would have been to add the new plants immediately and not added the Stress Zyme. Adding the plants might have prevented the ammonia/nitrite spike. (But maybe they weren't available when you needed them?)

I might or might not have tried to save the plants that were infested with hair algae. That would depend on whether I really needed them. And depending on their species, that 4 minute bleach dip might kill them anyway.

You are on your way with this tank. They are all different and present different challenges. Good luck!

Bill


----------



## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Need fast growers in your tank.
Have any anacharis or duckweed.
Gotta love duckweed


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Well the reason I saved the few that I did was because they were hardy and attached to drift wood I wasn't about to part with. They'd all be bleached before too, actually, and survived- this time I was more thorough, however, and bleached the equipment and got new gravel in the hopes to win the algae battle. The stress zyme was my worry too but let's see... 

I wasn't sure how long the soil should cure in the water first before spending a good chunk of money on plants... so I gave it a week with two small water changes (2-4 gal.)

I do need floating plants! I gave up my frogbit and regret it already. 

-Thanks!


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So the plants are exploding into life! Everything is doing great... with one big BUT- I ordered a lot of plants from a retailer via the internet. He's always been very helpful and had good plants. This time, within 4 days all the new plants started growing long threads of algae. :-( I feel so defeated already. I emailed him to ask his advice but anyone's is welcome. I've had great luck previously mentioned bleach dip but the thought of digging everything up irks me. The otto cats seem fat and happy on algae so I can't say they aren't doing their job. 

Help!


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

In my defeatism I have just learned to live with algae, as it never seems to go away no matter what. I'm just happy that all I have to do now is clean every once in a while. Instead of trying to figure out what to change as far as water parameters and fighting that never ending battle, try getting some CRS (Cherry Red Shrimp). They're beautiful, plus will eat your hair algae. For normal green spot type algae, I found that Olive Nerite Snails work awesome!! (I have added a link where I bought my Nerites from) http://www.jayscustomcomputers.com/wilma
Good Luck!!:mrgreen:


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok, I've heard consistently good things about shrimp and snails regarding algae. I have some otto cats and a stray snail that came with the plants (he's tiny though). Thanks for the advice! 

Does anyone think there's any harm in letting the algae take over while the tank is still so new? I'm thinking I might get some frogbit to soak up some nutrients in the mean time...


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I wouldn't let it "take over". I would clean what you can, and trim the worst of the hair algae. Or if you just like the aesthetic look of algae, by all means let it take over.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi, Emily,

In response to your first post, I said:



aquabillpers said:


> Hi, Emily,
> 
> Let us know in a week or two how everything is going. If you don't have any problems then the answer to your question is "No." If you do have problems then the answer is "Yes, of course!"


So now I can answer "Yes." 

There is no need to put up with those strings of algae. In fact, they and the other algaes that you have or will have will smother your plants and eventually could make you tear down your aquarium.

The cause of your problem is too much light for the available nutrients, including insufficient CO2. Stimulated by the high light, the plants made use of the nutrients that were available until they ran out, then slowed down. The algae took over and feasted on the light and whatever nutrients that it could find.

To correct this, you need to add more CO2 with all that implies, or reduce the amount of the light. In either case, you should aggressively remove whatever algae you find. It might also be useful for you to know what nutrients are in the water, particularly NO3, and dose accordingly.

Good luck.

Bill


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I don't want to stir up any issues on this, but the object of this is "Natural". What you are suggesting aquabillpers is the complete opposite, being "High-Tech". I'm not saying there is anything wrong with high-tech, just the objective in this area is low-tech, and the objective I believe Emily6 is going for is the low-tech side. 

In my experience, which includes a low scale high-tech style, I have realized that I don't have the funds, time, or need to have an immaculate show style aquarium. The joy for me is watching an ecosystem thrive, and part of thriving, just like in the wild, is algae. Keeping it at a bearable level is acceptable.
 Hope that didn't come across the wrong way aquabillpers.  Just tried to keep on topic/objective.


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Both perspectives are interesting and appreciated- I think I am a little more inclined towards the "Natural" qualities of the tank both for financial reasons and personal disposition. I agree that the light I have is probably overkill- but it was what I could afford. What I did in the mean time was purchase some floating plants that should arrive early next week. I've always had great luck with them.

Treating algae manually has worked temporarily for me often. However, I have found it near impossible to really get rid of and nearly impossible to prevent it using city tap water (treated with PO4, chlorine etc...).

Currently the algae is growing slower than the plants. Aquabillpers, I understand what you mean about the algae picking up where the plants left off but I think this may sort itself out as the tank cycles. I've had plants consumed by algae before and it's depressing. I don't think Rohape means for me to let it go _that far._And my otto cats are fat and green-bellied so at least something is working well!

Thanks all!


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I sure wish I had oto's like yours! Mine just sit around and do nothing.


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

rohape said:


> I don't want to stir up any issues on this, but the object of this is "Natural". What you are suggesting aquabillpers is the complete opposite, being "High-Tech". I'm not saying there is anything wrong with high-tech, just the objective in this area is low-tech, and the objective I believe Emily6 is going for is the low-tech side.
> 
> In my experience, which includes a low scale high-tech style, I have realized that I don't have the funds, time, or need to have an immaculate show style aquarium. The joy for me is watching an ecosystem thrive, and part of thriving, just like in the wild, is algae. Keeping it at a bearable level is acceptable.
> Hope that didn't come across the wrong way aquabillpers.  Just tried to keep on topic/objective.


Hi, Rohape,

I know that this forum is "El Natural" and what its objectives are. I think I am close to being a charter member. Most of all of my tanks have soil substrates, and I don't use CO2. I think I qualify as a Walstad disciple, although with a tendency toward heresy. 

I saw the "topic" as being Emily's request for help with a problem. I thought that she had too much light, and suggested that she either reduce the light or consider CO2. Either approach would improve things.

Trying to combine low-tech and high(er) tech approaches seems to result in the disadvantages of each manifesting themselves.

Good luck to all!

Bill


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

I just saw that you had about as many posts as I, and just wasn't sure. Drifter's get in here sometimes. :mrgreen: Wasn't an attack. 
It happens with the APC widget and just wanted to see if you knew where you were. No biggie.


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

So would cutting the CO2 all together be a bad thing at this point? 

On the subject of the ottos- I think I found my ammonia problem. Their frequent hang-out was COVERED in poo! I guess what goes in must come out. I did a partial water change to clean that up a bit. They didn't always used to be so frisky- previously I think they scavenged a lot of flake food. 

I plan on removing a bulb from the light tonight and giving that a whirl. Like I said, the algae hasn't run rampant yet- it's just very present.


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok so here's some interesting results. I tested some major perimeters on my tank tonight and got the following results:

pH: 6
Ammonia: 8ppm!!! (that has to be wrong)
Temp: 76F
PO4: .25
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 40ppm

I have three otos, a cory cat and a betta and all are doing fabulous- so signs of stress at all. I would think ammonia at 8ppm would have them dead 4 times over. I want to add more fish but for obvious reasons am hesitant. Thoughts?


----------



## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Definately take a sample to your LFS, or get a new test kit. The nitrite at 1ppm leads me to believe 8ppm may be right.  Either way you need to do something quick...


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi,

I would do a 50% water change immediately and retest the water. If the ammonia is down to about 4 PPM then the kit is OK and you have a problem.

The fish might look healthy now but they cannot live in water with that much ammonia.

If it turns out that the ammonia was really at 8 ppm, the larger question is, where is it coming from? The short answer is, it is coming from metabolic processes or decay. The normal procedure would be to clean the tank, removing all dead and dying plants and dead fish, if there are any, and change the water until it gets to a reasonable level.

In this case, I think the problem could be with the substrate. If there are a lot of organics in it, it will produce ammonia until the organics are oxidized. What kind of soil do you have in the substrate? 

Bill


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I guess I have my work cut out for me tonight- can the AmmoLock control the chlorine immediately enough so that 50% water changes don't compromise my filter bacteria?

I used a 50-50 mix of back-yard soil and organic potting soil. I'll admit that in the hurry of moving, I did not do a jar test as per Walstead's book. But I had no where else to put the fish in the mean time. :-/ 

Since everything is new, I guess the soil is the only unknown- I basically don't feed the 5 fish since they're all scavenger's happily eating the copious algae I have. 

Thanks again!


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

It sounds like the organic potting soil could be the issue. I'm not sure, but I would think this issue will continue due to all of the organics in the potting soil. Definently get the floaters, and see how things go after the water change and floaters, before considering a do-over.

Unless I missed it, what plants do you have in your tank already?


----------



## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> I guess I have my work cut out for me tonight- can the AmmoLock control the chlorine immediately enough so that 50% water changes don't compromise my filter bacteria?


Hi, Emily,

I've never used it but I think AmmoLock will do that.

Don't take offense at this  but one definition of a fanatic is "One who, when he sees that the situation is hopeless, redoubles his efforts."

Not that your situation is hopeless, but your life would be easier if you rebuilt your tank, using a less active substrate, as was described earlier.

Lots of luck!

Bill


----------



## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

AmmoLock detoxifies very well, I used it when I had some triple sulfa kill my cycle in my quarantine tank.  In my 20H the soil spiked very high as well, because of high organic content. The bacteria caught up and now all is well, keep with it!


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok, I did the 50% water change, removed a bulb (now at 55w) and tested it the next day (a little delayed but I ran out of time) and STILL got 8 ppm. The fish are still eating and happy. One of the filters has also been getting clogged lately (I am rinsing it in separate tank water, though). The other one is fine.

01krisp10- how long did the ammonia spike last?

Currently I have about 10 assorted crypts, 3 amazon swords, ~ 15 corkscrew valls, 5 square inches of glossostigma, 3 small lugwigias, milfoil, java ferns, anubias nanna, 2 aponogeton crispus, frogbit, and another red-leaved floater- quite a full tank and all doing fairly well. 

Tonight I'm going to have my water checked at a LFS and see what they say (the tap water shows up clean, though, so I really might have a problem). Either way I'll do another 50% change and test immediately.

Are there any good bagged soils out there that work in case my local soil is a flop? If this keeps up for another week, I might start over. I'll do a jar test this weekend (since I have the time). I have a back-up tank for the five fish if things get stressful. 
Thanks again!


----------



## rohape (Feb 7, 2005)

Normally the cheapest "Top Soil" would work. Potting soil usually has vermiculite, or other such things for water retention and drainage. Cheaper top soils have very little or no additives.


----------



## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Sorry correction! AmQuel+ is what I used much more effective. It removes Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Chlorine and Chloramine. It is also safe to used repeatedly every 24 hours to remove any remaining toxins. 

Well I made a huge mistake and after 1-2 days of no ammonia when I first setup the tank I put fish in! Bad idea, should have waited, as the spike happened slowly over the next week. It lasted a long time because of the fish and I had to do regular water changes and add amquel+. It was exhausting, but I made it through it and now the tank looks and behaves awesome! 

Stick with it, it sucks and you can't but feel sorry for the fish, but with proper care and attention they will not suffer.


----------



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I took a water sample to my LFS and they said my ammonia was only at 4ppm (though my kit still reads 8ppm)- this might be a color interpretation difference, though. Otherwise, their kit matched mine. :-( Another water change on the way tonight. The algae is definitely growing fast, though.

I also got AP Tap Water Conditioner this time around instead of AmmoLock. I felt it was more appropriate. Any feedback?


----------

