# What did I do wrong?



## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi- two weeks ago I had a bad case of green slime algae all over my tank. I followed someone's recommendation of blacking out the tank completely for 3 days with a quick filter running. This seemed to work wonders except that even with the filter, I could see fuzz algae floating around the tank (I didn't even know I had it!). 
Now, 5 days later after I've turned the lights on, done a 50% water change, cleaned the filter pad and left it running, I have fuzz algae, brush algae and green slime- all on the increase. I had to cull back a lot of my floating plants so I suspect it's a burst of light and lack of nutrient competition that's causing it. Is there anything I can do in the mean time to keep the algae at bay? The green slime algae took over even with all the floating plants in place...
I'm particularly worried about the brush algae which seems to be legendarily hard to get rid of once established.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Dose flourish excel for the brush algae. Your right about it being legendarily hard to kill. They say high CO2 levels will kill it off, but that never worked for me even when I removed my fish and made my tank bubble like soda for a month. Excel is the best way to kill it off.

As for the other two kinds of algae they should eventually go away on their own. It is common to have algae outbreaks with soil especially for the first few weeks after setting it up. But overall try stabilize the tank's conditions, the more you change them rapidly the more algae problems your going to get. 

Also, don't use the blackout method, its very stressful to the plants and will usually cause more algae problems since the plants are damaged by no light and they are the ones that out-compete the algae.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Mutliprong approach
floating plants are good. Takes the nutrients out of the water column.
Need fast growing plants Coontail (hornwort) and Anacharis.
I would change the light bulbs to cool white (4200K). This keeps the higher frequency light from seperating the Iron from disolved organic compounds.
Also I had replaced the activate carbon very regularly. I mean every 2-3 days and stuffed to the bursting point (again taking out organics and thus less food for algea)
If anything more 4200K light and less 5000+K(or sunlight) might actually be better.
I recommend pond snails and lots of them. I found the ones with the elongated foot good algea eater (cleaned hornwort leaves). They may not actual clean up healthy algea but definately eat unhealthy.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

newbie314 said:


> I would change the light bulbs to cool white (4200K). This keeps the higher frequency light from seperating the Iron from disolved organic compounds.


I've never heard of this. Can I ask why you think higher kelvin ratings would cause a problem?

Also, using activated carbon in a planted tank is generally regarded as a bad idea. The organics that are removed are essential to normal plant growth and development.

Plants need the same nutrients that algae do and algae cannot be controlled by wholesale nutrient limitation. Such an approach only harms the plants.

The key to success when waging war against algae is to provide for the needs of the plants. Once the plants are healthy and growing nicely the algae issues become trivial. This is why blackouts aren't a good option.

My usual advice is this: Manually remove as much algae as possible. Remove any dead, sick, unhealthy, or dying plants. They're only adding to the problem. Be ruthless, even if the plants were expenisve. Cut deeply. Stock up on fast growers. Ensure CO2 is adequate. Fertilize macros and micros every other day. Do not neglect this. Do frequent, small water changes. Keep light, temperature, and everything else as constant and stable as possible. Be persistent. You will win.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

Ok, I hastily added carbon because I have heard that before as well (but I really don't know who to believe- I might take it out since I've never really needed it before). I was reluctant to re-dose ferts. because I didn't want to add to a bloom effect from all the light suddenly available. I have some plants that I've heard don't deal with Flourish Excel too well- I get the impression it's a gamble with that stuff. I do have regular Flourish, though.

I am trusting in the fact that the plants will slowly win this one- I just didn't want the brush algae getting too cozy. I don't think I ever got rid of it completely before but I've ordered some foreground plants to populate the areas it tends to grow in (where the light is brightest). 

Any thoughts on the green slime and fuzz algae? This stuff was why I performed a black-out previously. My tank was running almost optimally (going on 8 months since set-up) when it got infested. The slime prefers the floating plants while the fuzz likes the stem of leaves.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Are you dosing adequate macros? A common mistake is to start witholding nutrients in an attempt to "starve" the algae. What happens is that the plants starve, they stop growing, and algae gets the upper hand. Regular Flourish is a good micro mix but it contains no nitrate, potassium, or phosphate. BTW, Fourish Excel doesn't either.

The only way to create a balanced tank when you have lots of light is to compensate with lots of CO2 and lots of fertilizers. Good luck. Once the plants are happy the algae won't be. Focus on the needs of the plants.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Well here goes based on Walstad's book, my interpetation of it, the forum here and my experience.
Except for floating plants, the plants are suppose to get most of their nutrients from the soil expect. They will take out Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate of course since that's what we want. They take out Ca, Zn, CO2 and depending on the plant CO3- to suppliment supplies of CO2.

The reason floating plants are recommended is that they are fast growers (since plenty of CO2 access from the air) and take out a lot of nutrients from the water column (also bad stuff like Cu - in the book).

By taking out nutrients the algae starves. My understanding is that Algae like the Iron. Again except for our floating plants, all our plants are getting the iron from the soil (for about 1-2 years - then mulm from fish waste, food etc build up and supplement the soil).

The more disolved organic compounds the more metals get locked up like copper and iron. When high frequency light occurs it breaks the bond of Iron, and feeds the algea. This is why a lower frequency is better. Plants like it and so do algae but the iron doesn't break loose. This is stated in the book too (Cool White bulbs). I had an algea problem and among other things (former posts) replaced both 17W 8000K bulbs with two 20W 4200K. No problem lots of plants and lots of duckweed.

Of course the logical arguement on that is why doesn't my duckweed die. Well there probably is a certain background of Fe and the floaters are there to grab it, and the little algea that forms isn't seen, and shaded from by the floaters. Also Algae has no food storage (I assume not much) so I think the floaters can wait longer between meals.

The filter I only used for the short term, and again it was to take out the disolved organic compounds that in some cases will bond Iron. Again most plants are getting nutrients from the soil.
The only additions to my tank besides food is powered CaCO3 (crushed eggshells) since the water here is soft (nice for humans, no so much for most aquariums)

Also manually pulling it out is definately recommended.
Again your milage may vary, and not everybody has the same algae problem.
Although I got rid of the green algea in two tanks and they happened early after the build (lots of nutrients from the soil floating around the water column)


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, I neglected to notice that this posting was in the 'El Naturale' section. The OP didn't mention if they were using a soil substrate, or CO2, but I must now assume that the answers are "yes", and "no" respectively.

I'll stick by my comments about high light tanks needing CO2 and macro/micro fertilization, but the definition of "high light" is of course ambiguous. The El Naturale style is a bit of a religion unto itself and I usually try to not comment too much about it or people's problems when following it. Having never tried it, this is probably best.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

YEah, I will have to re read Diana's book again. I don't remember her saying anything about higher color spectrum having any affect on mineral ions. That doesn't make any sense to me. The kelvin is just the color spectrum. Most experts agree that the color of the light has no bearing on plant growth, although some experts have argued that color spectrum has some affect on alga and flowering of plants, but its debatable. Most have argued the opposite, that it is the lower end of the color spectrum that causes problems. For me its all asthetics. Cool whites are a very yellow light and wash out the colors of plants and fish. I never use them unless I absolutely have to.

People who strictly follow a Walstad approach do everything differently! It is because it is a very closed, contained Eco system where every little componant is dependent on the rest in order to work. If Emily is following the Walstad approach, the way she deals with algae would be different than the way it is dealt with in a typical aquarium. If you do a black out, you have to do a large water change, or series of water changes after the black out to remove all the dead algae. Dead algae, or any accumulation of dissolving organic material is going to cause another algae outbreak.

This is why you will get conflicting advice. Guaic boys advice is dead on accurate for a typical aquarium. But in a NPT, Walstad type aquarium, the approach to the problem is totally different in some respects.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

I remember the chart that was in her book. A hobbyist had put some bulbs to the test to see which ones helped to grow plants better.

The bulbs that gave the best plant growth was a combination of a Vita-Lite and a GE Cool White bulb. The next best was two GE Cool White bulbs. The GE cool white bulbs have a Kelvin rating of 6500K. Those are the ones I use in my tank only because I like the look that it gives to the plants. I think when it comes to the Kelvin rating, it's all a personal preference.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

coolwhite is 6500k???? thats news to me


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I've never been able to feel totally confident in lighting speak. I have two 55w 8000K bulbs for my 36 gal. It's bright- that's for sure- and when I have more floating coverage, I notice a difference with the plants and algae. So I think I still need to balance out my nutrients to compliment the light. What's a good source of macros? My CO2 fluctuates but almost always stays a shade beneath "happy face" on my meter. I wish the meter was more specific...

I've been cutting back the infected veg and the tank is fully stocked with fish. I'll refer to the book about the carbon.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Cool white is 4000k or 4100k
http://www.efi.org/factoids/colortemp.html

Emily6 curious, what type of setup do you have. Is it high tech?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Robert Hudson said:


> coolwhite is 6500k???? thats news to me


Well I specifically looked for the ones mentioned in Ms. Walstad's book so those must be it. She had said the reason the GE bulbs may have grown the plants better was because of the color from the lights. I can't remember exactly what she said but it has something to do with the yellow-green hues that the bulbs produce. I'd have to go back to read that part again.


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

I have a soil substrate with about 1" of gravel above- 36 gal. long/short tank with 2 55w 8000k bulbs. heater and nothing else. Sometimes I run a 5-gal filter just for some circulation. My tank has crypts, 2 huge amazon swords, christmas moss, phylanthus, frogbit, and a few other plants that are just barely sustaining themselves. 

I think I'm going to start a new thread on black-outs. I want to hear some view points on this topic.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Your light level is about 3W/gallon. Anywhere between 2-4 is good. I have a 2.5g at ~5W/gallon at 5100K and it is fine, but then again I have easy fast growers.
If you tank is exposed to sunlight you need to cover the area of the tank that shows the soil. I used black paper and used white glue.

If your setup is fairly new, then I think you having the usual Fe release from soil still in the water column.

I think a few more fast growers would really help you out, and no sorrow if they die.
I used Anacharis for both and it's a great grower. You'll see in the first few days how fast it is growing (again nutrients in the water column).
I also recommend coontail (hornwort). That's like anacharis for growth rate.
Both plants can float and be planted.

And my favorite, duckweed. I don't know how fast frogbit is, but if you are not complaining about havng to do too much pruning for a month old tank, then it's not growing fast enough.

For the 20g-long, growth rates have slowed down. Duckweed not, still growing like a weed, but Anacharis is growing slower. Also I pruned it quite a bit. But the amazon sword is growing great. One of the leaves creeps closer to the tank edge everyday.

But I did notice the amazon sword wasn't easy to start. It can be a victim of algea too.
Kind of tells me Amazon Sw like soil nutrients and anacharis/coontail like water nutrient.

I would really switch the 8000k out for 4100K lights. I know the 8000-9000k look good once you get use to the color.

Again my suggestions are a multifacet approach. I don't know if all or sum worked. Whole greater than the sums of the parts I suspect.



Emily6 said:


> I have a soil substrate with about 1" of gravel above- 36 gal. long/short tank with 2 55w 8000k bulbs. heater and nothing else. Sometimes I run a 5-gal filter just for some circulation. My tank has crypts, 2 huge amazon swords, christmas moss, phylanthus, frogbit, and a few other plants that are just barely sustaining themselves.
> 
> I think I'm going to start a new thread on black-outs. I want to hear some view points on this topic.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> I was reluctant to re-dose ferts. because I didn't want to add to a bloom effect from all the light suddenly available. I have some plants that I've heard don't deal with Flourish Excel too well- I get the impression it's a gamble with that stuff. I do have regular Flourish, though.
> 
> Any thoughts on the green slime and fuzz algae? This stuff was why I performed a black-out previously. My tank was running almost optimally (going on 8 months since set-up) when it got infested. The slime prefers the floating plants while the fuzz likes the stem of leaves.


I can't understand why, if you have a soil substrate, you are adding a micro-nutrient fertilizer. Often chelated iron will stimulate algae. I have always advised people to keep iron out of the water unless you see sure signs of iron deficiency (yellowing of new leaves).


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## Emily6 (Feb 14, 2006)

To be honest, I don't know why I am dosing micros either. Every now and then when I run across these algae issues, I feel very inclined to do something quick (since the problem is quick to worsen). Undoubtedly, someone always suggests this and I always cave to the idea (usually thinking that I have so much light and not enough nutrients to compliment it). Clearly, it's not a long-term fix. 

Humm... one narrow side of my tank is exposed to sunlight every morning- I never heard of covering the exposed soil area. What is the reason?

I want to switch my lighting in the worst way- it seems whenever I take a bulb out, things get better. But unless I buy a new fixture, I'm stuck with the wattage. Why is 4100K better? I've heard a lot of mixed understandings of light warmth affecting plant growth.

I started a black-out (since I really think I can knock the algae back for real this time now that I know what to expect) and then I'm removing a bulb until I think of something better (the algae mostly grows on one side- where there's little plant shelter). I have an order out for more plants in the mean time.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

4100k doesn't photo-reduce the iron that is joined with the dissolved organics
Covering the soil stops the sun from photo-reducing the iron in it.

This is why adding a filter with carbon (In my case lots of it) helps. Takes out the nutrients.

Plant growth seems fine in my tank.
Prunning enough. 1 week ago I took out over half the duckweed. Looks almost fully covered on teh surface again.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Emily6 said:


> To be honest, I don't know why I am dosing micros either.
> 
> I want to switch my lighting in the worst way- it seems whenever I take a bulb out, things get better. But unless I buy a new fixture, I'm stuck with the wattage. Why is 4100K better? I've heard a lot of mixed understandings of light warmth affecting plant growth.
> .


Hello Emily,

It's so nice to see some honesty here. For a long time, I was too was convinced that micronutrient fertilizers were the way to go, and that any sign of poor growth was due to micronutrient deficiencies. I was wrong.

About lighting....I assume that you are equating 4100K with Cool-whites. Aquatic botanists often use pure cool-white to grow their plants. The bulbs are cheap and they seem to promote good growth efficiently. However, I honestly must admit that my fish look positively awful with pure cool-white.

Therefore, in my book I advocated a MIXTURE of cool-white and any bulb designed for growing plants (e.g., Vita-lite or Sylvannia Grow Light) that gives off a pinkish hue. An experiment, I documented (my book, p. 180) showed that plants photosynthesized better with a mixture of cool-white and Vita-lite than two bulbs of either alone. Fortunately, this dual lighting is more attractive for viewing than Cool-white (washed out colors) alone or Vita-lite alone (purplish/pinkinsh cast to everything). It's a nice combination.

That said, there are many good lighting options aside from the one I recommend in my book. In one of my tanks, I'm using an AH Supply compact fluorescent (5500K) designed for aquarium plants that works very nicely. The lighting flatters the fish, and its very energy efficient.

Don't take it all too seriously. Remember this is a hobby!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Diana, I noticed your book doesn't mention Kelvin temperature for the lighting.
I have 4100k (aquarium bulbs) are they not considered cool-white?
I do assume the spectrum of aquarium bulbs would be more true to black body than consumer cool-white.

I agree with 5500K, as I have that on my 2.5g. Considered full sun. I brought mine down as part of an algea battle.

Funny is I put mylar on the inside of my hood (dual bulb aquarium) and I figure I'm getting a little more algae on the glass (living room side).
Then again might be more light since we finally see the sun again here.
The duckweed grows like crazy in the 20g-long (4100k) and the HM.
Next time I replace the bulbs I might go to 5500K.
Is there an equivalent of a Vita-lite aqurium bulb?


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