# First El Natural - 2G



## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

I've just completed my first El Natural tank last Sunday.
It's actually my sons.
It's the Marineland Explorer but without the filter.
Did add a light and has the Marineland 10W compact florescent.
Boy what a difference the light makes in viewing.

Plants:
Val. Spirlus
anacharis
Java Moss
Java Fern
and Duckweed.

A new Crowntail Betta calls this home.
He looks like he loves it there.

Patrolling his territory, jumping through the java moss and of course
staring me down when I took a picture of the tank (he's in the top right corner).

The reason for this tank setup is due to the Bettas. We love this fish, but they didn't seem to live long (the longest was ~1.5 years).
I felt it was due to the high water flow (full tank replacement in 2 min) and it wore them out.
After reading Diana's book, it maybe more to substrate poisoning.
I really wanted to have a non-flow tank, but didn't want constant water changes (weekly). I had heard a few things about using Java moss but did have any good info.

Until I read Diana's book and found the whole Ammonia uptake by the plants. And of course everything else.

I felt this book was great. I'm an engineer by trade and this was a good read. Didn't go into all the molar equations but like the theme of balance in the aquarium.

Funny thing about this tank, is it must be one of the most relaxing freshwater tanks I've seen. The green does add a real calming affect, the whole natural thing. My son has looked at this Betta more in the last 4 days then probably the whole 1.5 years of the last Betta, and I don't think it's just because the new one is a crown tail. Like my son said, it's science that we are doing at home.
Looking back, the old tank setup (a few fake plants) was the equivalent of an underwater desert.


So here is a picture of the tank.
I've added a seashell to help with GH and KH. I have noticed that the PH has gone up in the last two days from 7.4 to 8.2. But this maybe due to the new substrate from the store as they seem to leach even if they are covered with acrylic.

Any know if the GH tests (bottles, test tubes) have an expiry date. I can't seem to get a reading on my tap water or tank water and I'm pretty sure I don't have a GH of 20 .

So any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks


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## sb483 (May 29, 2006)

Finding the betta took me a while. Seems to be posing 

Bettas don't have long life-spans to begin with, but with growing plants in the tank it'll live far healthier than your earlier ones.

Congratulations on your 1st El-Natural setup. If you ever go for a larger tank, the method in Diana's book works just as well there -- I have a 55 gallon El-Natural tank with only a fluorescent bulb and a heater, no filter at all. Platies and corys are healthy and multiplying so rapidly that I don't know how many there are.


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## dymndgyrl (Jan 22, 2007)

The Aquarium Pharmacueticals Gh Test is very hard to read. The color change from pale orange to pale green is very subtle. Here's what I do:
Fill two test tubes - put one or two drops in one and cap it. Use this one to compare to the other one as you start adding and counting drops. It is easier to see when it turns green if you are comparing it to an orange one (really more like yellow)

Of course - hold them up to a white background as you do the test.

Cheers


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks for the advice on the GH.
I have tried using standards for some of the others, i.e. no drops, but great idea on seeing the water with 1 or 2 drops as a reference.

I tired the strips, all in one. They are terrible. The PH reading is total off.

So any warnings on the KH and PH. I've seen this climb before.
Will the Seashell be sufficient for the Ca/HCO3 nutrients.

Glad to hear about the 55gallons working as well.

I still feel it's a little crowded but he (the fish) seems to like it. The bubble nest is huge.

Any suggestions for company besides a female. I would be concerned about adding any more since it is only a 2 gallon (10.5"x8" surface area).
Any shrimp-type invertebrates I could add, that would try to eat the fish or viceversa.

Thanks


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

What a great home for your betta! He sure looks happy in there. I enjoy the ease and beauty of my modified natural planted tanks, so I know what you mean. I was thinking of a couple of ottos as possible inhabitants since I think the betta would like at shrimp as food. Of course, there are always snails, some of them are really cool too.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Is it recommended to have the water movement? They sell these small powerheads that can go in such a small setup.


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## sandeepraghuvanshi (Feb 22, 2007)

Nice tank mate.
BTW betta's don't live long, but being in a planted tank will definitly increase quality of his habitiat.
Betta hails from small puddles of water and do not like stong water flows, powerhead will stress them out.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Oh, I just saw the picture...
How do you do water change on this small setup? And how often?
I'm thinking of setting up my 2G fishbowl.
thanks,


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

I used to use a regular aquarium syphon. Have to do the dip and down.
Since this is my first Walstad, I plan not to do one until 6months.
Even I wonder what the advatages are.



mistergreen said:


> Oh, I just saw the picture...
> How do you do water change on this small setup? And how often?
> I'm thinking of setting up my 2G fishbowl.
> thanks,


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

*Week1*

So here is the status of week 1:
PH is 8.4 - yeah a little high. Why? Maybe for a few reasons
1) leaching of the new gravel. I've seen that before.
2) The plants are going crazy. Low PH because no C02 what so ever.
3) The sea shell I have in there (don't think so). (See picture left side)

The Anarchis is really growing.
Ariel roots. If you look at the picture you'll see a stem creeping from center to the right on the surface. Well it's not called a waterweed for nothing.

The KH is 4.
The NH3 is 0. I've known from personal experience the I would register something after 1 week in an unplanted aquarium with no filter. So the plants are really working.
GH -still can't get a reading. Even tried the reference tube. I believe the solution is too old (4 years). A big squirt and no change in color expect for more orange. If there's green I can't see it.

Anyway enjoy. NB - the first picture in the above post was day 3. So the picture below is day 7 or 4 days later.
Boy I hope those tools come in soon :-D


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

Cool tank!
I love to see people housing their betta in larger containers. It makes me sad that people assume that just because they survive in a cup, they're "ok" in whatever container.
My first betta is over 2, and he survived a year with a friend. He's being pampered now. Well cared for, a healthy (read: non-inbred) betta can survive for 3-5 years. In a lab setting, they can survive to the age of 10. Pretty amazing. 

In a larger tank, even a 5g, there'd be more suggestions for tankmates.
Generally, anything that doesn't look anything like another male betta, and doesn't fin nip. However, every betta has a different personality and ability/disability to play well with others.
If anything, I'd reccomend an otto or two as a previous poster mentioned. Maybe some pond or ramshorn snails if you don't mind dealing with "pest" snails, or cana/bridgessi if you don't mind moving them when they get too big. I think a mixture of all kinds of snails is fascinating, and they go largely unnoticed by bettas.
Ignore the betta when thinking about surface area since he bypasses the waterbound oxygen and breathes mainly from the surface with his labyrinth organ. Because of his fancy breathing ability, your main concern when considering betta buddies is the poop load.
By the way, watch to make sure leaves don't completely choke out the top of the tank or he won't be able to make it to the surface and will suffocate to death or worse "beach" himself on a leaf trying to breathe and get crispy by the lights.

I got a Hagen GH/KH test kit. I love it. You can definately tell when it changes color, because it goes from blue to yellow. None of this pale junk. On Drs. Foster and Smith, its kinda hard to find because they call it a "carbonate and total hardness" kit, which is different from the label on the other brands.

Good job on picking the betta by the way, he's a cutie!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

My son picked him out.
He choose the most healthy and one of smaller ones (hopefully young).

Won't the betta breath from the water as well. I thought air breathing was only a secondary feature?

P.S. Cut back the center branch of Anacharis. Boy does it grow


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

newbie314 said:


> Won't the betta breath from the water as well. I thought air breathing was only a secondary feature?


Yes, they can breathe from the water too, but its the suplimentary method. If anabantoidei are trapped away from the surface they will drown. Its not an experiment I'd suggest trying at home.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

SKSuser said:


> Yes, they can breathe from the water too, but its the suplimentary method. If anabantoidei are trapped away from the surface they will drown. Its not an experiment I'd suggest trying at home.


I don't know, I thought it was the reverse... Breathing air is a supplimentary feature. Although you could be right. I see my bettas gulping air eventhough the water quality is fine.


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## Morbida (Aug 15, 2005)

Ok I just once would not like to hear the puddle thing when it comes to bettas. Really a rice field is an awfully huge 'puddle'. Yes a betta in the WILD can survive in a puddle of icky water , knowing full well rain will connect him to a body of water soon enough. Bettas we now keep in tanks are far removed from their wild brethren. 
Beatiful tank btw. It will help lengthen betta boys life. They do tend to like the jungle tank. Lots of places to play.
I do agree with keeping the water surface clear,not only for the fact that bettas breath air but also for the o2 exchange that happens at the surface of a tank.


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

Sorry newbie to sidetrack your thread but,
"betta + drowning" or "anabantoid + drowning" on google. 

Also, thank you morbidia for dispelling the rumor that betta can survive long periods of time in a cow's footprint full of water.
Betta are beautiful creatures and deserve no less room than what newbie314 is providing his.

Cudos, newbie, for providing a nice place for your betta to frolic.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I have female bettas in a 55 heavily planted tank. I have a lot of leaves either floating or just under the surface. The bettas love to actually sit on top of a leaf with the top of their body actually breaking the surface of the water! It is amazing! I can actually pet them with my finger! At first I thought the fish was in distress, ill or worse. I poked it with my finger and it would swim away perfectly fine, and eventually come back to the leaf and work itself on top of it and just sit there! I've had these fish in this tank for three years now. Below the tank in the floor, I have a rubbermaid tub with only about three inches of water in it. I grow some emersed plants in it. Somehow, one of the bettas got from the 55 into the tub. I kept her in there for several months. She had plenty of room, but only three or four inches deep. I eventually put her back in the 55 because I thouhgt she might be lonely without her sisters! All six females wer given to me by a local breeder, and they came from the same brood.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm raising serveral betta fries right now. They get very excited at feeding time that they literally jump out of the water.. One of them landed on the side of the glass, got stuck for a second and slid back down into the water. It was pretty funny.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

*Week 2*

Here is the week 2 update.
Took out half the java moss, and tried to rearrange the java fern so the Val. isn't so covered.
The val. in the front kept coming out of the substrate so I tried to replant it.

The val. as a whole isn't doing as well as I would like.
Most likely not enough light and maybe the water isn't hard enough.

The Anacharis is growing like a weed.
I've pruned quite a bit and the one in the center front was floating (veritial :S) and I have planted it to the left.

The fish still loves his home. Even swims to the back where the java moss is. Sits near the surface. I don't know if that space was there or he created it himself. It wouldn't surprise me if he is using it as a bed.

A new bubble nest is forming (under the center java leaf). This is a good sign since I destroyed his other one. I was concerned maybe he wasn't healthy.
Ammonia is still zero (at least 2 days ago).

Here's a picture. Hope you like it.


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## kelliope (Apr 13, 2006)

Good job with your tank!

I just wanted to add that I have 5 bettas all in different set ups and every one of them has Red Cherry Shrimp in the tank. I was nervous about adding the shrimp to my smaller tanks (5 gallons) because I wanted the shrimp to survive. 

The bettas were interested in the shrimp at first but are unsuccessful in catching them. The cherry shrimp are breeding in the tank and are quite beautiful and very interesting creatures. I think your son might enjoy having some in the tank - the men and boys who have looked at my tanks all seem to love the shrimp! [smilie=w:


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks.
Looks like the betta has too big of a belly. I hope it isn't like the other ones that have died. The good news is the bump is on the bottom not on the side.
I think he is eating too much. Like I said my son pays more attention now.
The claim from him is that he likes the betta since it's a crown tail.
I think it is indirectly the plants since they add interest to the tank or more likely the betta is more interested and interacts with his surroundings.

Man what a desert the other setups of the tank seemed.

Does anybody know if 8.2 pH is too much for a betta.

The Val. Sp. looks like it maybe coming back.
But the trimmed Anacharis doesn't look like any *growth*.
Any comment on that?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

newbie314 said:


> Does anybody know if 8.2 pH is too much for a betta.


yes...that's a bit high. That's african cichlid range.
betta's natural habitat range from soft to neutral PH.
Do you know what's causing the PH rise?


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

The aquarium gravel.
I've seen this before with other aquarium gravel.
Even though it is covered with epoxy, I still have seen issues.
I guess I should have washed it first

Maybe it is the seashell (see left near the back). But I heard there isn't too much leaching. I'm trying to bring up the Ca and bicarbonate.

Extra: See white bugs on surface of glass. Very small. Look like small bugs (water fleas) and what looks like little worms (even smaller than pot worms). Anybody have any idea what these are.

Thanks


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

Some betta breeders swear by indian almond leaf. It does lower PH, but I don't know by how much.
You might try it, if you don't mind the tea colored water.

It is a temporary fix. Besides the ?ugly? (I like it) tannin color, you need to decide if the fluctuation is worth it, or if its best to find the problem and gradually remove it.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

I'm going to start taking a little water out each day and see if that corrects the problem.
Don't want to shock the fish too much.


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## littleguy (Jan 6, 2005)

I think the shell is definitely raising the pH. What's your GH and KH now?


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

4 for KH
Need a new bottle for GH

I saw the pH raise when I used a jar and the gravel.
Did a testtube test with some gravel in the tube.
Definately changed.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I didn't have oyster shell so I used limestone instead. I tested the limestone in aged water and the PH is lower than the regular aged water. Limestone is CaCO3 (calcium carbonate).... and isn't that basically oyster shell?

I'm figuring the CO3 is an acid that lowers the PH.


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## Teeleton (Jun 8, 2006)

I gave up on the anachris in my 55 gallon. Trimming it became a chore it grew so fast. Worked great for getting the tank established, though.

Teeleton


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Yeah I was wondering
1" growth in a day.
Do I have too much light - 10W for 12 hours?
If I have less I may not have enough for my val. Sp.
Should I be using a dwarf val?
Does the anacharis really grow when the top is clipped? I haven't seen anything

What would you recommend for the tank?


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## Muirner (Jan 9, 2007)

When I got some Anacharis from the store there was 1 stem that had the top cut off. It took some time but it did grow back! I found letting stems float may help them, but this one that I had i planted and just waited for either the rotting to happen or for the new growth. As of now it's growth. The anacharis will come back it'll just take some time.

Did you replant the cut part? If so are you noticing growth on it?


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Yeah I planted one cutting. It is growing real fast.

I'm thinking about prunning the tops of one side of the tank (right side with the val. sp.) and let is grow slowly (that would a switch for the anacharis).

I'm going to keep the end of the cuttings just in case I kill all of them. All the cuttings from last week are in a jar. If I just keep the small ends, I can have some insurance of healthy Anacharis.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

*week 3*

Well, here is the week 3 updated.
I did a 1 liter water change on Thursday to bring down the pH. It got down to 7.8pH and when I checked today has stayed there. This is good as it means the source for the high pH is either gone or it doing it slowly. I suspect the substrate on this on.

The Val. Sp. seems to be recovering which is good. The Anacharis just wants to grow all over.
You can't see it in the picture but there is a planted stem in the back middle that has grown to the top and traveled to the left side and then sum (of course on top of the Java Moss).

I've decided to keep the right side as clear as possible for the Val. Sp.
I pruned all but one stem in the middle of the tank (the long one in the back). I have essentially taken the middle out and kept the very end floating since these have the growth.
The pruned An. is growing slower (the ones in the middle were pruned last week).

The betta has already made a surface path in the back of the tank where the java moss is. I still think he rests on it.
Good hiding spot since we have a piece of brown construction paper on the back (used on the original setup but this side doesn't have any green pretend plants).
Funny is the paper color seems to match the tannin in the water. Good thing or I would notice how tea color the water is.
Will this tannin go away over time. I do believe its the wood slivers and the wood organic material that was in the top soil. No harm no foul anyway, the betta would probably have that in the wild.

Still see these little white bugs in the water but mainly on the glass. Need a real powerful hand magnifier (i.e. 3 lenses) to see them. Either a smallish worm or a tiny bug like a pill bug ?? These bugs remind me of the ones I see hanging around the water areas in a kitchen sink. They come from outside and hang out.

Again no harm no foul.

The Bettas tummy did finally go down, just ate to much so we stopped feeding him for a half a week.

Anyway that's it.

The picture is below. For some reason couldn't get a real good picture today...


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

> Still see these little white bugs in the water but mainly on the glass. Need a real powerful hand magnifier (i.e. 3 lenses) to see them. Either a smallish worm or a tiny bug like a pill bug ?? These bugs remind me of the ones I see hanging around the water areas in a kitchen sink. They come from outside and hang out.


I'm getting the white bugs too.. They're planarians (flat worm).. They're harmless. I just bought some cherry srimps and hopefully they'll eat those the planarians.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks, that's what I thought they were.
What about the bug shaped ones, I don't think they are planarians (okay for a fish tank, bad for a worm bin)


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## Velvetdragon (Mar 17, 2007)

Bettas are really prone to constipation so that may be the reason your fish is getting a big belly. They can also just get fat, which tends to shorten their lifespans.

Some causes of constipation are flake foods, sometimes pelleted foods, and freeze-dried bloodworms, or a diet exclusively of bloodworms. Then some bettas just seem extra prone to it. A preventative measure is to feed a variety of foods (Hikari Bio-Gold Betta pellets are a good staple, alternated with frozen-thawed bloodworms, and perhaps some live food like fruit flies) and to include a fasting day once a week, as well as a pea day.

If you do think it is constipation, then the treatment course is generally fast for three days and then feed a pea.

The method for feeding a pea is to thaw out a frozen pea in the microwave (only takes a few seconds!) in a little bit of dechlorinated water. Then take the outer shell off the pea and squish the insides up into tiny betta sized portions and feed a couple bites of that. It really gets things moving. 

For more severe constipation when a betta won't accept a pea, epsom salt baths can be used.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

newbie314 said:


> Thanks, that's what I thought they were.
> What about the bug shaped ones, I don't think they are planarians (okay for a fish tank, bad for a worm bin)


i'm not sure what the bug is either. it's probably some sort of crutaecean...they're 5 times smaller than the planarian... If I can catch it, I'll get out the microscope.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

They may well be cyclops. There's a little population in my 25g cube that have appeared from nowhere. I'm just about to put a batch of baby killis in to eat them!

The other is Ostracods. They seem to appear from nowhere in my fish free tanks too!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Looked at Wikipedia.
Think they are cyclops (can only tell by the body shape).
Also fits the description of living in still water.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I have little bugs crawling around the glass with the planarians... Cyclops & ostracods swim around.
So, not sure what it is.. I'll catch one soon.

ps. nevermind.. all the bugs are gone.. I think my cherry shrimps ate them all.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Week 4 Status
Doing a little more pruning. This time just some Java Moss near the middle (touches the anacharis and on the val. border). Also took the dead val leaves and thinned some of the duck weed.

New val. leaves seen.
Also see a val. runner which is great, now a new val. plant.
At least two of the Anacharis have branches formed. They had been clipped on the top.
Duckweed is going wild. Surprising is that they grow even with Java Moss below them. Create very long roots though.

PH is back to 8.2. Oh well.
A little bit of algea is growing, and some more snails are being seen.
The extra algea maybe due to me cutting the Anacharis and were not growing as fast as usual.

Anyway here is the picture. The top center is white washed but there is java moss there. The Betta will actually swim on top. Don't know why he doesn't beach himself.


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## philoserenus (Feb 12, 2007)

hurray! another update finally, i've been waiting for a while to see how things will turn out =) i hafta say, i cant wait until my java fern grows to the point where itz rhizome would be that large. i'm down to my 2 largest plants in my tank. seems like the smaller ones are finally giving up (when i bough them, they didnt have much of the rhizome attached so i had a bad feeling), but the other 2 are growing fine for me. i still like it how ur tank still looks that lush! do u have any frogbits in there or just duckweed? b/c duckweed's roots dun usually get that long. maybe about 1cm max!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

It looks like duckweed (minor type). I could be wrong. It reminds of what we called ditchweed when we were kids. Grew up in the northwest.

The Java fern was large when I first brought it home. There is new growth on it.

I'm probably putting too much light on the system. 10W for a 2 - 2.5G setup. 2x the recommended, but hey the plants don't mind and neither does the Betta.

Do see some bubbles come from the root base of the front val. Really neat to see a small stream. Nothing today though probably because I was prunning yesterday and today.


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## philoserenus (Feb 12, 2007)

oh dun wry about that i have my 20W desklap hovering about 3" above the waterline and my plants and they seem to grow fine. just a tad of algae here and there. most likely due to the lack of water changes due to my busy exams. thatz y i also tossed in a few frogbits and they should be happy. i dun think they would be lacking any light rite? haha. sitting a couple of inches rite under the bulb


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

*Re: First El Natural - 2G - Week5*

Week5
The new Val. is growing, and of course the duck weed is too.
There is some Algea. Looks like mainly on the val side.
Probably for 2 reasons
1) lots of light since I clear the duckweed and Anacharis.
2) not enough duckweed and Anacharis to suck the nutrients out. I wouldn't be surprised that the left side of the tank does have less nutrients due to all the growth, especially duckweed.

So far I've
1) taken dead leaves out
2) did 2 x 40% water changes. Lots of tannin and loose algea (light green hair ). The tannin implies nutrients.
3) added more duckweed and an anacharis branch to the val side (right).
4) trying a little more light. But may not be having any affect.

Anyway here is the picture:


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## amkid247 (Aug 14, 2007)

i have the same tank, and i want to do the same thing, what kind of light do you have? where did u get it? mine came with a light but it heats the water way too much, so i would love to know what light ur using in the tank!


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

My son's tank didn't come with a light.

I bought an all-glass aquarium light hood for a 2.5Gallon. It is about 2" too long.

I placed plexi-glass over the tank and then placed the hood. It sits on top.

I used a 10W compact fluorescent bulb that fits the standard light socket. It's from Marineland and 5500K temp. light. The wattage people quote are flourescent. So 10W for 2.5Gallon is plenty (maybe too much ).

The bulb is similar to these ones: 
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9870&Ntt=bulb&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

I like the 5500k since I feel I don't need the higher light frequencies. Walstad book states the 4200-4400K cool white would be adequate as well.

If your socket for the light is standard just replace the bulb.


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## amkid247 (Aug 14, 2007)

its the size of a nightlight bulb socket ;__;


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Might want to check a hardware store.
I thought I saw flourescent bulbs for night lights, or maybe for candelabras. I think they both have the same socket.


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## amkid247 (Aug 14, 2007)

i think i might keep the top off when i make it a NPT and have my dad cut me a plexiglass cover with holes, so that i can put a clamp on light above it =]


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Update.
Well the tank was really covered in fine hair java moss.
Any ways I now have a new Val Sp. running that started growing about 2 weeks ago

I don't know what caused this sudden creation of the runner. The vals themselves have been growing nicely.

The tank is around 74oF, so maybe summertime temperature is too high. Will have to work at that.


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## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

The shells dissolve when pH drops below 7.5 and raise GH (Calcium and magnesium) and KH (bicarbonates). So when are you measuring KH and pH?
In a planted tank, pH swings to some degree based on the daily light-dark cycle/CO2 levels. It'll be lowest early in the morning before lights on and highest at nite right before lights out.


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