# My pH/hardness is driving me nuts



## Dave Kotschi (Dec 16, 2007)

I recently tore down and reset a 90 gallon tank using Ms. Walstad's system. Perhaps you can answer a couple of chemistry questions.

Is it true that GH and KH measure unrelated qualities?

Doesn't high KH equate to high pH and vice versa? My tank water is 7.4 pH with a KH of 3. This appears to be contradictory. If I were to lower my pH to 6.8 what would the KH be?

Can GH be moderately hard and the pH be slightly acid?

This is all starting to sound like voodoo. Maybe I'll just sacrifice a chicken in front of my tank and hope for the best


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Dave Kotschi said:


> I recently tore down and reset a 90 gallon tank using Ms. Walstad's system. Perhaps you can answer a couple of chemistry questions.
> 
> Is it true that GH and KH measure unrelated qualities?
> 
> ...


If it's suppose to be equal to each other then my town's water is really screwed up.

The pH in my tap water is 7.8 yet my GH from the tap is 26d and my KH is 15.12d. When I had set up my El Natural tank, the pH went up to 8.3, the GH is at 28d and my KH is up to 22.17d and they've been staying like that ever since. I think the reason my pH, GH and KH have gone up was because of the empty snail shells left in the tank from my betta's casual snacking as well as the gravel I'm using.

Also, if you live in a city, the pH is sometimes artificially(I don't know if that's the right word for it) raised to prevent the pipes from eroding from acidic water. I'm pretty sure I read that in Ms. Walstad's book.


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## newbie314 (Mar 2, 2007)

Yep you are correct, you read it in her book about the pipes.

It is possible to have high PH and low GH, and KH.
This would result in a system that is easy to change the PH and has very little buffering.

The water from my taps is soft too, real soft.
I originally added seashell to the 2.5g. Now the ph is 8.4, and GH and KH well are definately high enough.

As for the 20gallon long, I'm using whole eggshells in the tank and 1/8 teaspoon of crushed eggsshell every night. My PH is slowly climbing and so is my GH/KH. In the beginning I was worried since the PH is around 7.4 and had very little GH/KH. I didn't want the system to crash due to some event like say a creature dieing in the the tank.

By the way one of my dwarf crayfish died and was being munched on by the snails. Took it out and check the nitrate and ammonia. All zero, yeah Natural Planted Aquariums


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## mommyeireanne (Oct 24, 2007)

Water Hardness, is how much mineral content the water has, most often Calcium which shrimps and snails need for their shells, exoskeletons. That's why the egg or sea shells work, too. I think of hardness as literally how much 'rock' is in the water. How much rock is in there, is the buffering capacity like you guys said. Buffered water is more pH stable, and you want that stability. None of the live things we keep wants a drastically or constantly changing environment. Gradual change is best, like slowly adding the egg shells. Most buffering agents can raise pH also, make the water more alkaline or basic. I think Ms Walstad said here in a sticky that the higher pH is ok for most(?) fish and plants as long as it is stable. This was news to me (and just another reason why I had to get the book) cause I always read specific parameters for different fish.
Also, most municipal water is treated with Chlorine or the now more popular Chloramine to kill germs and 'nasties' that aren't healthy for humans to consume. These make the water alkaline. They are also very bad for fish, so we use water conditioner. 
Neither strong acid nor base would be good for metals, really. I believe the non-acid requirement you'll see on the label for cleaners was more about the overall safety of municipal water than the pipes, because it counters the chlorinating agents. If everybody flushes acid cleaner, it could add up and allow bacteria and so forth to thrive in our drinking water.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Dave Kotschi said:


> I recently tore down and reset a 90 gallon tank using Ms. Walstad's system. Perhaps you can answer a couple of chemistry questions.
> 
> Is it true that GH and KH measure unrelated qualities?
> 
> ...


You are thinking about it too much. Parameters are related. High pH typically equates to high KH but pH can lower with acids.

Why are you troubling yourself with pH/GH/KH?



newbie314 said:


> It is possible to have high PH and low GH, and KH.
> This would result in a system that is easy to change the PH and has very little buffering.


It is? I will try to understand.

Raising my pH would mean increasing KH significantly. I have no issue keeping pH that is below yellow on test kit. I have seen that it can only go so low. Your statement seems to instill the pH crash myth. My pH is low and my GH and KH are both nil.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

pH and KH can be related, but it is not straight forward.
Easiest to start at the beginning.

What is the KH, pH and GH of your tap water?
What is the pH of your tap water after it has sat out for 24 to 48 hours?
What is the KH, pH and GH of your tank as it is now set up?

Are you using any pH altering products?

What kinds of fish and plants are you trying to raise?



Couple of examples:
My tap water in summer:
KH and GH are pretty close to 5 degrees. pH is 8. A friend (on a related water system) has same GH and KH, pH is 9.
Winter: GH and KH closer to 4 degrees, pH is in the upper 7s. (I have not asked my friend for todays pH) 

Tank one: Substrate removes carbonates. KH is 0 degrees. pH 6.2. I add baking soda. KH rises to 2 degrees, pH comes up to 6.6. Substrate removes the KH again and the pH drops. 

Tank two: I add baking soda and Seachem Equilibrium with every water change, substrate is coral sand. KH and GH are close to 10 degrees, pH upper 7s. (Reason for doing this: Lake Tanganyikan fish)

Tank three: neutral substrate, peat moss in the filter: KH is 4 degrees, GH 5 degrees, pH 6.5


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## frezik (Dec 10, 2007)

Brilliant said:


> You are thinking about it too much. Parameters are related. High pH typically equates to high KH but pH can lower with acids.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Raising my pH would mean increasing KH significantly. I have no issue keeping pH that is below yellow on test kit. I have seen that it can only go so low. Your statement seems to instill the pH crash myth. My pH is low and my GH and KH are both nil.


In general, I prefer high hardness to keep pH stable without using chemicals to control it. There's no water softener in my house, so my tap is _very_ hard water. Readings for my tanks are off the charts (GH around 17 degrees is typical, don't have a test for KH). My fish don't seem to care, and there's no way the pH is going to significantly change with hardness that high.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Brilliant said:


> You are thinking about it too much. Parameters are related. High pH typically equates to high KH but pH can lower with acids.
> 
> Why are you troubling yourself with pH/GH/KH?


Knowing what the pH/GH and KH are is important for this type of set up. Especially the GH and KH.

Most plants prefer hard water so if someone has a low GH, the plants may not do too well since soft water lacks important nutrients like Calcium. Also, if Dave wants to add snails to his tank, the water needs to be hard so the snail's shells won't erode from the lack of calcium in the water. A high KH is also good for plants and snails as well.


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