# Inducing blooming in crypts with far red light



## HeyPK

I had the hypothesis that crypts are long night plants, that is, they need a night longer than some number of hours in order to trigger blooming. If that is true, then a flash of far red light at the beginning of the night would trigger blooming if the night were not long enough to trigger blooming by itself. Long night plants measure the night length by the decline in the amount of phytochrome 730 during the night. The pigment, phytochrome, is converted to phytochrome 730 (p730) by red light around 660 nm. P730 does not absorb red light, but absorbs, instead far red light at around 730 nm. When it absorbs far red light it is converted to p660, which absorbs red light and is converted by red light to back to p730. At the beginning of the night most of the plant's phytochrome is p730 because sunlight has a lot more red than far red light. The p730 degrades slowly during the night and is the 'clock' that the plant uses to measure the night length. Long night plants are triggered to bloom when the p730 level drops below some critical value. If the night isn't long enough, then blooming is not triggered. 

My crypts usually do not bloom. According to my hypothesis, they are not blooming because they are not getting a long enough night. There are two ways I can test this hypothesis: (1) I can arrange to give them long nights. (2) I can keep them on long day-short night lighting, but give them a flash of far red light at the beginning of their night, converting instantly most of the p730 to P660 and getting the p730 level very low and triggering blooming. The second method is a lot easier than the first because creating a long night means total darkness the entire night. Even a little room light will have enough red light in it to change some of the p660 back to p730 and set back the clock. 

I took two crypts, C. minima and C. longicauda, that have been getting a 12 hour day, 12 hour night. They have not bloomed for years. Last Friday and Saturday evenings, I gave them 2 minutes of far red light after the time clock had turned the lights off. I used a Kodak wratten filter that cuts out all light with a shorter wavelength than 700 nm. with an incandescent bulb behind it. 

The C. minima has already bloomed four days later! That was quick! Still no visible blooms yet on the C. longicauda, but it may need more time. I will post a picture of the C. minima bloom in a day or two.


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## illustrator

If it blooms withing four days: would't that mean that it had already a flower bud? To me this sounds like a way too short time to start developing a flower bud/growing a spathe.


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## wabisabi

Cool! Very interesting. 

This could help a lot of people identify mystery crypts they may have and are unsuccessful in getting it to flower. 

Thank you for sharing!


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## HeyPK

> If it blooms withing four days: would't that mean that it had already a flower bud? To me this sounds like a way too short time to start developing a flower bud/growing a spathe.


Yes, but no flowers had been produced from this plant previously. It must be that flower buds are formed, but are only induced to grow when p730 falls below the critical level.


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## countcoco

Great idea!

I haven't been that into crypts for very long, but the varieties I've had bloom were always stressed prior to sending up a spathe.


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## 954baby

Very interesting. I grow outside (south FLA) and recently I've been getting spaeths which is pretty rare for this time of year. I've been tracking the occurrence of flowers and I can plot the abundance occurring in early March-June. Very cool research.


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## HeyPK

The C. minima flower


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## Gordonrichards

Lovely spathe! A+

I've seen a couple of my bronzes recently throw some of their spathe.

-Gordon


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## DogFish2.0

illustrator said:


> If it blooms withing four days: would't that mean that it had already a flower bud? To me this sounds like a way too short time to start developing a flower bud/growing a spathe.


I have to think this is a valid point from a scientific method stand point. I do agree you have strong hypothesis. I would be very interested toy hear about additional tests.


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## countcoco

HeyPK said:


> The C. minima flower


Lol, it looks like you've got cobwebs on that spathe.

How are you going to provide them with the far-right part of the spectrum?


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## illustrator

I found flowering Cryptocoryne wendtii on 23 August in a stream in Austria, where it is introduced at a hot spring. Around this date there is about 14 hours daylight (checked on internet, I don't normally know this kind of things by head  ). I would say that this is a long day. 

Circumstances differ of course from the native range of crypts, but you could check the same with cross-checking dates from photo's on this forum with daylengths - take the photo's made in nature of course


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## HeyPK

The first _C. minima_ flower died back, but a second is on the way and should open in a day or two. All this from two minutes of far-red exposure on Oct. 29 and again on Oct. 30. Still no sign of flower production in the _C. longicauda_ plant given the same far-red treatment.


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## illustrator

To me this is extremely interesting! Only, for now the sample is so very small that it could be a coincidence in my opinion. Please continue and keep telling your findings!


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## Tex Gal

This is very interesting. It would be nice if some other crypt growers would try what you're doing.


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## HeyPK

The minima and the longicauda have been for about three years on a 12 hour day, 12 hour night regimen. Not a flower from either all that time until the far red light treatment. Now I have two from the minima. I'll give the longicauda another week, and, if nothing, then I will give it four nights starting with a shot of far red. According to the literature, some plants can be induced to bloom by just one flash of far red light (long night), but others require more.


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## HeyPK

The minima second flower is about to open. Still no evidence of any flower production in the longicauda, and so I started a four day treatment of a 2 minute dose of far red light at the beginning of the dark period. 

I am thinking of shelling out 165 bucks for a led bulb that produces far red light. It would be a lot more powerful and easier to use than my little filter.


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## HeyPK

The minima second flower is now open, and I see a third flower bud that is starting to enlarge! I have given the longicauda three nights starting with a dose of far red. One more night to go. We will see if that induces blooming in longicauda.


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## Klaus07

I am fascinated by this thread also, and wonder what the triggers are for Crypts to flower. In 1985 I had Cryptocornyne pontederifolia emersed. The pots were held about 2 inches off the bottom on an egg-crate contraption. I used a small pump to pump water to a trickle filter i built across one end of the tank and let water trickle back into the tank over bioballs. the plants were planted in pots using only sphagnum moss. I used the standard aquarium bulb of the day for a 15 gallon tank and kept it running 24/7. For fertilizer i used a very dilute solution of miracle grow once a week, meant for houseplants, and added trace elements once a month. Within three months the pontederifolia sent up spathes and flowered. In light of your hypothesis, I have no idea where my experience fits in.

Klaus


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## HeyPK

Klaus07 said:


> ---------- In light of your hypothesis, I have no idea where my experience fits in.
> 
> Klaus


I am pretty sure it was dark periods longer than the critical night length to trigger blooming, but there may be other requirements for blooming such as, for example, the plant might have to be larger than a certain size.


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## wabisabi

HeyPK said:


> The minima second flower is now open, and I see a third flower bud that is starting to enlarge! I have given the longicauda three nights starting with a dose of far red. One more night to go. We will see if that induces blooming in longicauda.


Awesome! I hope your C. minima doesn't tire itself out putting out all these spathes all of a sudden. Are you dosing more ferts at this time?


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## HeyPK

Both the minima and the longicauda are confined to pint jars, and so they are somewhat crowded and the plants are small. I plan to get them in aquaria over the Christmas break. I fertilize with small additions of dried green leaves that decay and release nutrients. In addition, I add old dead tree leaves that have been soaked in water for a month or longer. These leaves do not have much in the way of nutrients to provide, but they do provide CO2 as they decay slowly, and I am pretty sure that they, being in a layer on top of the substrate, solubilize iron and make it available. Without the dead tree leaves I have found that the plants do not respond to nutrients from the green leaves, and the plants dwindle slowly as algae takes over the culture. It does not matter what species of tree leaves are used.


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## illustrator

Klaus07 said:


> I am fascinated by this thread also, and wonder what the triggers are for Crypts to flower. In 1985 I had Cryptocornyne pontederifolia emersed. The pots were held about 2 inches off the bottom on an egg-crate contraption. I used a small pump to pump water to a trickle filter i built across one end of the tank and let water trickle back into the tank over bioballs. the plants were planted in pots using only sphagnum moss. I used the standard aquarium bulb of the day for a 15 gallon tank and kept it running 24/7. For fertilizer i used a very dilute solution of miracle grow once a week, meant for houseplants, and added trace elements once a month. Within three months the pontederifolia sent up spathes and flowered. In light of your hypothesis, I have no idea where my experience fits in.
> 
> Klaus


I had _C. pontederiifolia_ flowering last summer in natural daylight (about 14 hours light, additinally occasionally having a low-intensity lightbulb on at night when working in the same room) last july, august. Now (shorter day; less light) it is still growing well but no longer flowering. Grown emersed, substrate is clay (from Tropica), I notice that most crypts don't do well in clay, but apparently _C. pontederiifolia_ is an exeption. I use hardly any fertilizer untill now. Earlier I grew it sumbersed (with fertilizer in the water): it became pale yellowish and looked unhealthy. As soon as it adjusted to emersed growth, it started flowering.

So in case of _C. pontederiifolia_ I _don't expect that a short day/long night will do much_.


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## HeyPK

Blooms are all gone on the minima, and no more new ones are coming along. No blooms or flower buds on the longicauda, and so either it does not respond to 4 successive nights starting off with far red light or the plants are too small to respond to a bloom stimulus. I am going to get the longicauda out of the pint jar and into an aquarium and should be able to get much larger plants.


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## HeyPK

I spoke too soon. The minima is producing another bloom! Still no signs of blooming in the longicauda. I am going to try far red light again on the longicauda when I get it going in an aquarium where I can get larger plants than the crowded, rather small plants I get in the pint jar.


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## Tex Gal

Paul - you are too cool!


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## Klaus07

Paul, I would like to see you try this experiment next year but with the addition of a baseline group that mimics the 12 hour daylight duration seen near the equator, along with a second group of plants that has an extended day instead of an extended night. If you also varied the treat ment of far red light, you could actually do an anova type DOE and see if anything shakes out.

I have to say I am not a botanist, so red light far red light doesn't mean much to me, but i have it on my back burner to look into over the holidays.

Klaus

Klaus


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## DeChaoOrdo

While your hypothesis seems to have some merit, and this experiment is somewhat interesting it is meaningless. Not only because it isn't reproducible but also because it is anecdotal at best. I agree with Klaus that it would be nice to see this experiment re-done with a few more controls. Specifically, I'd like to see it done with as similar of cultures as is possible grown under a variety of conditions ranging from keeping them in the exact conditions they were originally grown under. Isolating far red light as the cause of blooming would certainly be an interesting experiment, but it is impossible to demonstrate a potential causal relationship without strict controls.


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## HeyPK

The fact that I had C. minima under a 12 hour day, 12 hour night for three years and had no blooms, and then gave it a couple of minutes of far red light and then, in just a few days, it started blooming, has meaning, as I believe most people on this forum recognize. There is a large body of literature about the effects of far red light, and the results of my experiment are consistent with this literature. The experiment most certainly is reproducible. The C. minima has stopped blooming, and I could give it another shot of red light the way I did the last time and see if it starts blooming again. The period of growth under 12 hrs day and 12 hrs night is the control. The shot of red light is the experiment. The fact that the same plant is used under both conditions makes the experimental conditions more identical than they would be if I used different plants. 

In a number of your posts, DelChaoOrdo, you have put people down in an insulting manner and then demonstrated a lack of knowledge about the subject about which you are apparently trying to appear to be an 'expert'. I am beginning to believe that your primary purpose is to insult people and then show off your supposed expertise. Stop it!


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## DeChaoOrdo

HeyPK said:


> The fact that I had C. minima under a 12 hour day, 12 hour night for three years and had no blooms, and then gave it a couple of minutes of far red light and then, in just a few days, it started blooming, has meaning, as I believe most people on this forum recognize. There is a large body of literature about the effects of far red light, and the results of my experiment are consistent with this literature. The experiment most certainly is reproducible. The C. minima has stopped blooming, and I could give it another shot of red light the way I did the last time and see if it starts blooming again. The period of growth under 12 hrs day and 12 hrs night is the control. The shot of red light is the experiment. The fact that the same plant is used under both conditions makes the experimental conditions more identical than they would be if I used different plants.
> 
> In a number of your posts, DelChaoOrdo, you have put people down in an insulting manner and then demonstrated a lack of knowledge about the subject about which you are apparently trying to appear to be an 'expert'. I am beginning to believe that your primary purpose is to insult people and then show off your supposed expertise. Stop it!


By meaningless I do not mean without merit. It is certainly interesting, and plausible but the lack of a control and isolation of variables makes drawing a definitive conclusion foolhardy. By not reproducible I mean by someone other than yourself. Repeatable and reproducible are two different things.

I apologize if my manner is coming across as insulting, though I do not understand where I have "put people down". I am not criticizing you as an individual, but the procedures of your experiment. If my brusqueness insults you, I am sorry.

Edit: After a few moments thought, it occurred to me that repeating this same experiment several times with the same population would be a good way to make a stronger conclusion and eliminate the need for a separate control group. Especially if you strictly record your other inputs.


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## Tex Gal

DeChaoOrdo - I think the problem here is that it's very clear to the reader what HeyPK is doing. This isn't a science lab. HeyPK isn't claiming that. He also doesn't say that his results aren't anecdotal. To say that anecdotal evidence has no merit is just as incorrect. It's the anecdotal evidence that spurs people on to the experiments in the lab. Besides what HeyPK is doing doesn't have a down side. It doesn't hurt the plant, it also runs along with current literature and it's interesting.

All of us in this hobby have MOSTLY anecdotal evidence for the things we do in our tanks. We don't have labs. We don't set up elaborate experiments with control groups. We do what has worked anecdotally in our tanks. It's best to not be negative and just recognize that HeyPK is just doing something interesting at home and telling us about it.


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## DeChaoOrdo

Tex Gal said:


> DeChaoOrdo - I think the problem here is that it's very clear to the reader what HeyPK is doing. This isn't a science lab. HeyPK isn't claiming that. He also doesn't say that his results aren't anecdotal. To say that anecdotal evidence has not merit is just as incorrect. It's the anecdotal evidence that spurs people on to the experiments in the lab. Besides what HeyPK is doing doesn't have a down side. It doesn't hurt the plant, it also runs along with current literature and it's interesting.
> 
> All of us in this hobby have MOSTLY anecdotal evidence for the things we do in our tanks. We don't have labs. We don't set up elaborate experiments with control groups. We do what has worked anecdotally in our tanks. It's best to not be negative and just recognize that HeyPK is just doing something interesting at home and telling us about it.


I understand your point, but drawing conclusions off of experiments like this is what led to the common misconception that phosphates create algae and others like it. Again, I am not saying this experiment is meritless, simply inconclusive. Running experiments like this leads to a strong possibility of conflating correlation and causation which is why anecdotal evidence is such anathema in science.

A few more iterations with rest periods between would certainly strengthen the conclusiveness, though. Keeping documentation on the other parameters would strengthen it even more(and make it reproducible). Making a proper experiment doesn't require lab quality instruments(though they make it more reliable) simply lab quality procedures.


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## Tex Gal

DeChaoOrdo said:


> I understand your point, but drawing conclusions off of experiments like this is what led to the common misconception that phosphates create algae and others like it. Again, I am not saying this experiment is meritless, simply inconclusive. Running experiments like this leads to a strong possibility of conflating correlation and causation which is why anecdotal evidence is such anathema in science.
> 
> A few more iterations with rest periods between would certainly strengthen the conclusiveness, though. Keeping documentation on the other parameters would strengthen it even more(and make it reproducible). Making a proper experiment doesn't require lab quality instruments(though they make it more reliable) simply lab quality procedures.


Well at least you are a little more positive - with lots of negatives thrown in. No, I don't think you understood my point. If you'd like him to fine tune what he is doing that is a much more positive approach. My mom always said, "You can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar." That means keep it positive. If what you are saying sounds offensive to people - you are using vinegar. It's much better not to be a discouragement to people.


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## illustrator

Some crypts are flowering easily and we don't need anything new. Others flower infrequently or very rarely, and if someone tries something that seems to work, other can try the same and then we actually have a wide variety of growing circumstances and just one thing which we all do in addition to what we did before. With tropical species (with 12 hour day 12 hour night) I am not convinced why far red light would induce flowering, but I'd love it if someone has an idea which might get C. affinis to flower repeatedly. 

For now, I am reading this with great interest and wait for anyone to try with some more species. Anecdotical evidence is an excellent basis for starting experiments, sure, in itself it is not enough to draw firm comclusions, but without anecdotical evidence, I believe we would have far less interesting scientific work being done.


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## HeyPK

I have decided to shell out about $160.00 for a powerful far red light source, and will be doing some more experiments in the next few months. Right now the C. minima is back to not-blooming, and the C. longicauda never did bloom. If I could get my hands on a C. affinis plant, I could try the far-red light on that, too. HINT! HINT!


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## wabisabi

Any updates on this project?


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## HeyPK

Not much from me. My job has gotten in the way of my hobby, as usual, and all I have done is move the two species into a 15 gallon aquarium. I still have to get a light on the tank and buy the far red lamp. 

"Work is the curse of the drinking classes"----Oscar Wilde


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## wabisabi

Damn work! Always getting in the way of important stuff.....like our hobbies!

If you commit and buy the far red lamp, I'll donate a small C. affinis plant to this cause.


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