# A few questions



## Blueyedgal (Jun 2, 2010)

Hello all!

I'm new, but have been lurking for the past 2 months, reading posts here. I'm intrigued by this so called low maintenance "El Natural" setup. I've read some stickies, but am still a bit confused. (Mind you, this is my first tank EVER, so I'm pretty much confused about everything. lol)

*1.* I was planning on purchasing Eco-complete substrate. Would this work, or does it HAVE to be soil?

*2.* Is a filter needed? I was going to go with a sponge filter for my 10 gallon.

*3.* Is sunlight a necessity, or would a hood light work? I don't get _any_ where the tank has to be set up.

*4.* Um.....so what exactly do I do to ensure it's set up properly and the ammonia doesn't spike? After reading on "regular" fish forums, everyone yells about the importance of water changing, water testing, and all this STUFF I would rather not do and buy. Please help enlighten me a bit. Thanks!

*off to read more stickies*


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi Blueyedgal. Welcome to the forums. 

I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

1. Eco-Complete alone will not be enough to grow plants. A soil under layer will be needed and plants do better with soil. You just need a plain, small gravel for over top of it. Here's a thread of mine where I asked if it would be okay to use EC as gravel for on top of the soil. I don't plan on ever using it in any future NPT's. 

2. It really isn't needed because you won't be using it to cycle the tank. Most people, myself included, only use filters or powerheads for water circulation. You could easily use the sponge filter in your new tank but I have used sponge filters in NPT's before and I find they are messy! I think it would be better to use a filter that you can adjust the flow control like a canister filter or the Hang on the Back filters.

3. My tank doesn't get any sunlight and it's doing just fine so using a hood for lighting would be okay. Just make sure your tank gets at least 2 watts per gallon since it's not getting sunlight.

4. It's always good to have a freshwater master test kit handy regardless of what type of tank you have set up. I normally only test the water when I first set up a tank so I know when I can put fish into it but I do test the water every now and then just to make sure everything is doing fine.

As for things like water changes, that is something that some people rarely do(like myself!) unless there is a problem in the tank like an illness or if the fish/plants do not look very happy. If you have a lot of plants in the tank along with some floating plants, you shouldn't have to worry about an ammonia/nitrite spike. The only time I had this happen to me was in my 10 gallon guppy tank. It use to have a sponge filter in there and I would sometimes slack off on cleaning out the sponge and I ended up with nitrites that took a week to get rid of. Once the sponge in the filter was cleaned, the nitrites quickly went back down to zero.

I hope this helped!


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## Blueyedgal (Jun 2, 2010)

Thank you for your reply and warm welcome, Red Rose. :rapture:

*1.* Hmm, I guess I've done so much reading on how wonderful Eco-complete is, that I'm still skeptical on going with soil instead. My pocketbook would be much happier to pay $2 for topsoil vs. $25 for Eco-complete, but I'm just afraid it will not work for me. Perhaps I'll buy a bag, of soil, to try in my fish-less 2.5 gallon tank, and see how that goes? :-k (off to check out your post too....)

*2.* The reasons I chose a sponge over a canister or HOB filter, is because I'm planning to put a betta in the tank, and heard they do NOT like strong currents. I've also heard many horror stories of their fins getting sucked into the filter and shredded. The final reason is my tank will be up against a wall, so I don't have much room for a HOB filter and do not want to cut a hole in my hood. I'd rather just use an airpump and airline tubing. But, I don't want to minimize what you suggested, so I'll think on it more.

And I guess I'm confused on what you said with not cycling the tank? So basically I just set it up, put plants in, and add the fish? Ahhhh this totally goes against everything other forums say, once again. Do the plants immediately start removing the ammonia?

*3.* For "pea rocks" (not sure what those are), would any fish gravel work? I'm trying to stay with a dark/black theme for my substrate. If you have any suggestions on anything to use (again, preferrably black), let me know. 

Sorry for my endless questions and skepticism. Guess it's time to re-train my brain? :sorry:


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

On the sponge filter, if you choose to use it, try to find the course textured material (like the black course filter pads) as opposed to the fine. This will not trap as many fine particles, but it also won't clog, will remian aerated, and will become a home to a bacterial colony (this is all theoretical by the way). I have a similar filter pad in a 10 gallon just to test it out. The pad looks aweful, but the water is clear and the fish are happy. I'm just using the pad that came with the Whisper filter we had laying around and not using any other filter media.

Which brings another option to the table on filters. The Whispers are designed to fit inside the aquarium, so no holes to drill and no space necessary behind the tank. For what it's worth, this is the only tank I have with a filter. The Picotope, Wetland, and the 125 are filterless, but I'm beginning to want a filter in the 125 just because the fish species I have really prefer some movement.

For pea gravel, any aquarium gravel will do. I have one tank with a cap of a 50/50 sand and gravel mix, and two using Black Diamond brand blasting sand.


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## Blueyedgal (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks mudboots. I'll check into the whisper filters, but really just feel a sponge would be easiest for me right now. And that's good to know about the gravel too!


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## Jark (Feb 6, 2010)

I have used a whisper filter in my 5.5g tank and it worked well. I have sense removed it and replaced it with a tiny powerhead ~50gph. The betta would lay flat against the intake of the whisper filter every once in a wile but didn't seem to mind it. His fins never tore and he could get away easily. He just seemed to like it down there. He keeps a little more distance from the powerhead but no problems yet.

I have pool filter sand as the substrate and it works great.

I waited about a month before adding the betta but I had no ammonia after the first few days. I was just letting the snails build up and keep dust algae down.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Blueyedgal said:


> Thank you for your reply and warm welcome, Red Rose. :rapture:
> 
> *1.* Hmm, I guess I've done so much reading on how wonderful Eco-complete is, that I'm still skeptical on going with soil instead. My pocketbook would be much happier to pay $2 for topsoil vs. $25 for Eco-complete, but I'm just afraid it will not work for me. Perhaps I'll buy a bag, of soil, to try in my fish-less 2.5 gallon tank, and see how that goes? :-k (off to check out your post too....)
> 
> ...


No need to apologize for asking questions. I asked a ton of them when I first got into NPT's!

1. I understand that you would be nervous about using soil and it not working for you. When looking for soil, try looking for something that is just plain topsoil. The dirt I use in my tanks is just plain dirt with the odd pebble or twig in it and the plants seem to love it. Only because of the experience I've had, I'd try to stay away from products that are called "Black Earth". I tried that when I had set up my first tank and everything went well for the first six months then after that, it was one mess after another.

2. The 10 gallon I have now has a betta in it and I have a HOB running on it. Yes, some bettas despise currents yet others can handle it with ease. My Max is one that has no problems with currents. Jake, my first betta, loved a current but a very mild one. I had to put the flow setting on low as well as put a piece of filter sponge in the intake tube to slow it down even more. I also put filter sponge on the end of the intake tube as well as a baffle where the water comes out. I'll attach a picture of my betta's tank as well as the baffle so you can see how I have it set up. The pictures are a bit slanted because I snapped them in a hurry!

What I meant by "not cycling" is that you are not cycling a tank the way you would with a filter. The tank is still being cycled but only in a different way. The plants remove the ammonia and nitrites instead of bacteria converting it to nitrates. Plants are quite quick at removing ammonia and nitrites especially fast growers like Hornwort or Water Lettuce. The average wait time for me when I set up these tanks is about a week and that's because I tend to get more nitrites then ammonia.

3. I like natural gravel myself so this is the kind I use. It's dark and made of natural rock and it's a great size too. It's about 2-3 mm in size which is what is recommended in Diana's book.


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## Blueyedgal (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks again, heaps, Red Rose!

*1.* Yes, feeling nervous is an understatement. Lol! I was thinking of trying to find a cheap bag to try in my 2.5 gallon tank, before making the plunge with the 10 gallon, to see how well it works. [smilie=n:

[B]2.[/B] Thanks so much for attaching the photo of your tank (it's gorgeous, btw) and showing the baffle filter. It's a great idea, I just would rather not have a HOB filter. Too much of an eyesore for me. :|

*3.* Those rocks are EXACTLY what I like, so thanks for the link! However, I'm not in Canada so will have to do some browsing to try and locate them. How many pounds would you say are needed for a top layer?

*One more question:* How does one go about pulling plants out or re-scaping, if necessary? I'm thinking the gravel and soil would get all mixed up and ruined, which is probably the #1 reason I'm afraid to try an El Natural setup.


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

You are so very welcome and thanks for the compliment!  Max loves his home!

Setting up the smaller tank would be a good way to see what you think of NPT's. If you like how things turn out with that tank(I'm almost positive that you will), then you can easily go about setting up your 10 gallon.

HOB's aren't for everyone. Sponge filters and HOB's are the only filters I've used and I really like the latter because they aren't messy to clean up.

I just checked out the Hagen website and looked in the U.S. section and it seems that the Geo Systems gravel(the one I showed you) isn't available where you are.  Some people have used pool filter media as gravel so you could try to look for that. In this link of DataGuru's, she uses pool filter media for her 6 gallon tank.

What I do when removing plants(which I only do if most of the plant is dying) is I very slightly pull up on it at the base(where the gravel is) and then I use my fingers to pinch off the plant. Then I slightly push the bottom part of the plant back into the gravel and cover it up. It will decompose and become fertilizer for the other plants. I never have muddy water from it and I've never mixed up the gravel and soil together from doing it this way.

I can't speak for others but I normally don't change up my tanks a lot because that could make quite a mess especially if you want to remove larger plants like Crypts. If I do, I do small sections at a time so by the time I remove other plants, the new ones will have had time to root.


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## Blueyedgal (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation on the uprooting of plants. That makes sense. And great link too!

Gosh, I'm gonna check out Wal-mart this weekend to see what they have for soil. The main problem I'm seeing, at the moment, is not being able to find a suitable gravel for the top layer. Unfortunately, I'm very picky and it HAS to be black, to match with my decor. It's going on top of a grey stone-flecked desk, and there's black/red in my room, so anything natural or brown color just doesn't look good at all, next to the grey color. 

Hmm. Darn it, why can't Hagen sell that beautiful black rock where I am?


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## Red_Rose (Mar 18, 2007)

Try looking for a soil called Earth-Gro. Apparently it's a good soil and quite a few people here like to use it for their tanks. I think it can be found at Lowe's or Home Depot. That is what I tried to get back in 2007 but it seems that it's only for sale in the U.S. because I couldn't find anything like that here.

As for the gravel, sorry to get your hopes up.  I just assumed that if it was sold in Canada then it would be available in the U.S. I'm also quite picky when it comes to the gravel as well. I like the darker, natural colors over flashy stuff like whites or beige. Check out Diana K's post in the link of my first post in this thread. She mentions where to look for some small rocks for gravel so you might be able to find something using those suggestions.

Good luck with your tank!

EDIT: You asked in a previous post how much gravel would you need for the top layer. If you can find gravel the size that's in the link I gave you then one 2kg bag will be enough for a 2.5 gallon and two 2kg bags will be enough for a 10.


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## Blueyedgal (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks! I had no luck finding any topsoil at 2 different stores. All I saw was Miracle Grow with fertilizers.  Haven't checked Lowe's or Home Depot yet.


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## Valley (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm using Miracle Grow Organic Choice potting soil. I've been very happy with it. It has a few larger pieces that have to be picked out but it's not much. It is also very easy to find. Here I can get it at lowes, home depot, wal-mart and the grocery store.


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## rome plows (May 27, 2010)

I got the cheapest bag of potting soil without perlite for $1.50 at Wal-mart and picked out the big chunks of twigs. Mudboots' suggestion of black blasting sand is a great one for black substrate. I used it in a cichlid tank about 10 years ago.


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