# Pogostemon stellata help



## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

I've been growing plants for a long time now and this is the only plant that has ever given me fits and is still giving me fits! It's stunting like crazy. Actually, half of the stems are stunting, the other half have smaller new growth. What am I doing wrong? All of my other plants are doing ok. What gives?

*Tank:* 29g
*Lighting:* 2x65w 6700K Coralife fixture
*Carbon:* pressurized CO2 and Excel
*Nutrients:* 7-8 ppm KNO3 eod, 1.5-2.0 ppm PO4 eod, 10 ppm K2SO4 eod, 12 mL Tropica PNL eod, Flourish Iron 2 mL daily (eod = every other day)
*Substrate:* ADA Aquasoil /w Powersand + Tourmaline BC
*Water:* 75% or better RO, the rest is tap. I know the KH is really low, the pH is very low, and I don't have a reliable method of testing the GH.

I've never had a growth problem before with this similar setup (substrate and 100% RO water), so I'm doubting the GH as being an issue. I also doubt it because my other plants (Toninas, various rotalas, etc) are doing well. What is it with this plant?


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Are you sure the nutrient levels are really what you say they are? More may be needed.

I would dig a bit deeper into your GH. Calcium to Magnesium ratio is a possibility.

You might consider splitting up your dosing to every day if nothing else works. Some plants really seem to appreciate a _steady_ nutrient supply and that's definitely one of them.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Yeah, it's a finicky one. Mine would do well for a while and then stunt again. After a week or two of that, zoom, it would start growing again. When it would grow it was almost a nuisance weed, needing a trim every week or so. My experience was the same as yours. Toninas & all the rotalas do fine and the stellatus just was never perfect.

My solution was to give up and switch to _Pogostemon stellatus_ sp. 'Broad Leaf' which is much friendlier. You better have a big tank to house this monster in though. Each plant can be 6-8" in diameter when growing well.

You seem to be adding lots of nitrogen, which can be an issue in softer water (despite what Barr says). I typically dose about 6 ppm *per week*. That keeps the NO3 around 10 ppm in the water column with 20% every other day water changes. The Ca/Mg ratio can factor in too and your potassium addition might be a bit on the high side.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

I second the potassium comment. I find adding it (aside from the other ferts) is often not necessary.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Thats so strange. Ive grown three types of this plant, a broad leaf with lighter green color that looks like Limnophila aromatica, a broad leaf with pink color and the thin leaf. The only time Ive had stunting is when co2 is off, typically after canister swap or something.

Ive actually found potassium to be a staple and sometimes the only fertilizer I use. Next to iron I think its one of the most important water column ferts.

With the spiteful comment you begin to wonder.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> With the spiteful comment...


????

What was spiteful?

Brilliant, what is your water chemistry like? GH/KH? I'm not suggesting that adding K isn't necessary, just that you're probably getting enough from the KNO3 and KH2PO4. IMO, stunting is often an inhibition from too much of something rather than a nutrient deficiency.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

I think I'll try adding some Ca/Mg. I have some Barr's GH builder. Anyone know how much to dose to achieve adequate levels and how often it should be dosed? If I do that, I'll go to 100% RO since the municipal water supply here varies. I'll also back off on the N and K as well. Judging from the slight green algae, I'm still adding too much N, so I've almost got the dosing amount dialed in correctly.

I'll try that and see what happens.


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Avalon said:


> I think I'll try adding some Ca/Mg. I have some Barr's GH builder. Anyone know how much to dose to achieve adequate levels and how often it should be dosed? If I do that, I'll go to 100% RO since the municipal water supply here varies. I'll also back off on the N and K as well. Judging from the slight green algae, I'm still adding too much N, so I've almost got the dosing amount dialed in correctly.
> 
> I'll try that and see what happens.


I believe Barr's GH Booster was formulated to be dosed in the same way as Seachem's Equilibrium.

P. stellatus grew well for me in Maryland as long as I kept on top of my CO2. In MD my GH was 4 dGH (no idea of the Ca:Mg ratio) and KH was 7 dKH. Everytime it would stunt, I had a CO2 issue, caused by low flow from my Magnum, which I used as a CO2 reactor. I have not been able to grow P. stellatus worn a darn since moving to Dayton. The GH here is 14+ and KH seems to be around 9dKH depending on the time of year. Ca to Mg ratio here is about 1:3 (28ppm Ca and 79ppm Mg). I can't grow a lot of the plants I used to grow and believe that is due to my Ca:Mg ratio. One of these days I will make the swap to RO water but that is a ton of water to make for water changes on a 75g tank


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

FWIW, I'm having problems with it too. It grows great for a while and then it's like it almost dies back for a while. My water is very soft and I dose EI including adding Equilibrium. CO2 is approx 30 ppm based on the drop checker. 

It was doing well until I topped it 3 weeks ago. I replanted the tops and tossed the bottoms. Now it's just sitting there looking unhealthy - hardly growing and kinda pale in comparison to before.


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## jeff5614 (Feb 15, 2006)

Here's a post on Tom Barr's site that may or may not be helpful but it's the same topic.

http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/4346-pogostemon-stellata-care-growth.html


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

The issue I hear the most often with this plant from probably three or four dozen of my customers is the plant turning green from red and not going back to red, or starting green and never turning red. Is this an issue you have seen Avalon, and is it all tied together with growth issues?

The potted plants that I recently got from FAN are completely green without a trace of red, but very full leaf growth. The most dense leaf growth I have ever seen on this plant. Their bare root bunches however have less dense leaf growth and are solid purple red. Same plant, same grower, but grown under different methods, both in mass production.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I think the color issue is mostly a function of how much light it gets. I was able to keep this plant in a medium-light tank but it grew pretty leggy and didn't color up very well.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't know... I've had it under 5 watts per gallon and had it turn green. And the plants I have now that were grown hydroponicaly must have gotten a ton of light.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

I've been thinking again. I may go ahead and formulate a daily dosing plan since I haven't made any significant changes yet.

Robert: I have had some success with this plant in the past--just not for very long. When NO3 is high, it will be green. If you let NO3 get low, and I believe this is where daily dosing comes in, it will turn from green to yellow & purple. If micros and iron are high, it will take on a slight bronze hue and get a little more red (which is really neat when you see it). However, I've never seen this plant as red as in the plantfinder photos. I believe the rendition in those photos to be camera 'magic' and the Kelvin rating of aquarium bulbs being used (like 9325K bulbs for example). I'm not saying it's not possible...I just haven't ever seen it.

I think that to develop bushier growth, lighting and P levels should be high (2ppm~) and NO3 low but stable. As Tom Barr states, the plant is a very fast grower and can be almost annoying if the NO3 is high like in EI dosed tanks.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Interesting discussion. I've been dealing with a similiar issue with L. Aromatica for about three years. 
When I first got this plant it grew like gangbusters coloring up nicely toward the top of my cf lit, EI-dosed, Eco-complete 72g tank. After around 6 months I noticed the great growth had stopped even though I was dosing the same amount. I tried all kinds of different dosing styles and nothing seemed to snap it out of it's frozen state. All new growth was tiny little leaves coming out of the trimmed tops. Eventually I started a new tank with AS about the same light and only dosing K and micros and the Aromatica took off once again, growing full and lush with nice color. But it was not to last, months later the plant started to stunt once again even after adding a light EI dosing schedule to complement the AS. 

Certainly a mystery. Could it be that this plant has something in it's genome that prevents it from growing 12 months a year. In nature is it only seasonally submersed or partially emersed and when conditions change drastically it grows again, sort of the way it grows in a new tank. Just a thought.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I don't know about the L. aromatica. I suspect you're seeing a deficiency of some sort. The biggest problem I have is that it grows too fast. I've never had an issue with it over a 2 year peroid ... at least not until I just said that. I half-expect to go home now and see it all melted.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

I'm beginning to think that I have too much light. I got to thinking about the daily dosing and the entire point of it (to maintain a stable supply of nutrients). Why not simply lessen the demand by reducing the light? I know for fact that most all plants still grow very well in low light conditions, especially when you have good CO2.

I've removed my current 2x65w fixture and just suspended a single 65w bulb w/ AHS reflector 4" above the tank. I think there's still quite a bit of light. Slowing things down should help greatly on all levels. I really don't care to prune plants twice a week anyway.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

CO2 and low-medium light is *THE* secret to happy 'scaping IMO. I have a 46g tank that is virtually maintenance free. I add NO ferts at all and there is no algae. None. It has spiral CF's in a DIY hood and gets a medium CO2 bubble-rate. It gets pruned once per 6-8 weeks and is arguably prettier than my mega-hyped-up 180 tank with MH lighting.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

That may be true Bryce, but I think there are some plants that are really all or nothing. If they are, they're probably going to need everything maxed out. You can't shoehorn everything into a low maintenance tank.


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## captain_bu (Dec 13, 2007)

Robert Hudson said:


> The issue I hear the most often with this plant from probably three or four dozen of my customers is the plant turning green from red and not going back to red, or starting green and never turning red.


I have the broadleaf variety and it has been growing consistently well for me for about 6 months. Tank is 50 gallons, EI dosing with pressurized CO2, 2.6 wpg PC light. I have only been injecting CO2 for a little over 2 months, drop checker with 4 dKh water stays consistently on the yellow side of green. I was using Excel too up until about 2 weeks ago. When I didn't have the gas I was dosing 2x Excel daily and using a reduced rate of EI. With just the Excel the undersides of the leaves were very red, since starting CO2 the leaves have turned completely green. I have been using the same ratio of ferts as I was when the plant was red but increased the amounts due to the CO2. I would love to get the red color back but am not sure how. My formerly very pink Sunset Hygrophilia has also turned completely green. I did try cutting my KNO3 dose a bit but noticed a reduction in growth and plant vitality, when I upped it again everything in the tank grew and looked better.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Oh, I agree with you Cavan. The plant selection is somewhat limitted compared to what you can get away with in a high-tech tank. I don't think plants like L. senegalensis (guinea) or R. macranda would do well at all. But, I think most people would be surprised at how well a lower-light, high CO2 aquarium can do. There are plenty, plenty of ways to make a nice scape using the old standby plants. The stability of the tank is truly remarkable.

I don't have anything too fancy in my 46g. C. helferi, Didiplis diandra, R. rotundifolia, java fern, a few Hygrophillas, crypts and anubias are all that is there. Like I said, I've had P. stellatus in it before, but it didn't look great and wasn't worth the trouble.

_For the effort that I put into it_, it's easily 10 times as rewarding as my piano-sized high-tech monster. I enjoy them both for different reasons.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> I'm beginning to think that I have too much light.


I don't know about that! Its been considered a high light plant for a long time, and back in the 90s, (I know I am an old fart) hobbysits in the internet community considered it a short term plant, one that wouldn't survive long term and it was thought to be normal for the stems to have leaves only at the very tops where it was close to the light with the rest of the stem bare! I still have a photo someone emailed me back in 1995 when he was so proud he got the plant to grow at all. It looked like a purple palm tree: a bare trunk with a little purple mop on top of it! I thought it was the ugliest plant I ever saw!  Thats when it was called Eusteralis.


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

My GH and KH is nil. Some tanks use Eco Complete and have higher 3 KH. The increasing KH from EC is the only reason I change the water. I think going without potassium would be like going without water. Its is one of the only ferts I add in all tanks. 

Light intesnsity is surely the key to color. Since I've been blasted by a heat wave I kept the metal halides off running T5 only. Its still healthy but lost its pink color. Similar to almost every other plant in the tank...

My fertilizer mix contains potassium, if I increase or lower the daily dosage I will not see such a difference then when I increase or lower co2.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Well, I think I solved my problem. I knew it had to be some kind of nutrient issue (which may have also involved CO2 since carbon is a nutrient). Since I cut my light in half as previously mentioned, this plant has dramatically improved in health...so much that its leaves span 7" in diameter and only half-way up the tank (after a prune already)! I kept the original nutrient regimen the same but also went to 100% RO with no buffers of any kind.

Furthermore, the rest of my plants have absolutely incredible health! There isn't one spec of algae whatsoever, and coloration is superb. There isn't one plant that displays any sypmtom of lacking light.

It's almost lights out time, and they look a little wavy since they're always in the current flow, but here they are:


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

Very nice Avalon...keep us updated on the tank in the weeks to come. I'd be curious to know if you get any stunting issues over the next month or so. This plant has always been a tough one for me.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Avalon said:


> Well, I think I solved my problem. I knew it had to be some kind of nutrient issue (which may have also involved CO2 since carbon is a nutrient). Since I cut my light in half as previously mentioned, this plant has dramatically improved in health...so much that its leaves span 7" in diameter and only half-way up the tank (after a prune already)! I kept the original nutrient regimen the same but also went to 100% RO with no buffers of any kind.


It sounds like things were previously a little short in the macro department. Less light, less need for them. If you ever decide to use more light again, a fert increase would no doubt be beneficial.

How are you reconstituting the RO?


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Cavan Allen said:


> It sounds like things were previously a little short in the macro department. Less light, less need for them. If you ever decide to use more light again, a fert increase would no doubt be beneficial.
> 
> How are you reconstituting the RO?


I agree with you about less light. Here's the interesting part: I am not reconstituting the RO. My proposal: what exactly does that entail about Ca & Mg requirements? I've previously ventured into 100% RO and I found that GH boosters did absolutely nothing. I've actually tried this before converting to 100% RO, and there was no change (albeit I never really gave them enough time, but considering the catalytic rates from high light, one would expect at best minor changes in a short period of time). From my observations, high light creates serious problems for plants; it can only be sustained for so long. Relax the lighting, and the plants relax as well. From all I've ever learned, everything about planted tanks revolve around the proper use and mix of light and CO2. Dosing basic ferts is the easy part. Heck, with results like this, why bother with higher light? Plants grow a little slower, but I'm in no hurry.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

High light is fine, but you have to be precisely spot-on with your CO2 and ferts at all times. If not, you run aground real quick. Once the plants run short of something they stop growing. About 15 seconds later algae show up.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Just gorgeous color and health. I've been watching this thread. So interesting. It does seem like it a balancing act with supplying all the nutrients in proper amounts including light and CO2. It's amazing when you get it all correct how wonderful it all looks.

*How about a full tank shot of those beautiful plants?! *


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Avalon said:


> I agree with you about less light. Here's the interesting part: I am not reconstituting the RO. My proposal: what exactly does that entail about Ca & Mg requirements? I've previously ventured into 100% RO and I found that GH boosters did absolutely nothing. I've actually tried this before converting to 100% RO, and there was no change (albeit I never really gave them enough time, but considering the catalytic rates from high light, one would expect at best minor changes in a short period of time). From my observations, high light creates serious problems for plants; it can only be sustained for so long. Relax the lighting, and the plants relax as well. From all I've ever learned, everything about planted tanks revolve around the proper use and mix of light and CO2. Dosing basic ferts is the easy part. Heck, with results like this, why bother with higher light? Plants grow a little slower, but I'm in no hurry.


I don't know why you haven't run into problems so far, but using only 100% RO doesn't sound like a good idea _at all_ ( I don't mean to sound harsh). You're looking at buffer issues, osmotic regulation problems for both plants and fish, and lots more; that's all I can think of at 5 in the morning. There can't be enough calcium and so on from the trace mix alone. How long have you been doing this? It's not uncommon to have the tank looking superb (due to low nutrient levels) right before the bottom falls out.

I agree with Bryce that high light is no problem at all if one keeps up with fertilizers. It's a great situation for farm tanks in particular.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

Yeah, everything you read would indicate I should be having all kinds of issues with RO only, but I've been doing this for 3 weeks now and there is no indication that there are any problems. I recently added a fish, an Apistogramma caucatoides "Triple Orange," and he's doing pretty good so far. I do aerate the tank at night for more oxygen and keep CO2 levels down at night. I check the plants every day waiting for algae or deficiency symptoms, but so far there are none. The only thing I can think of is the substrate is doing something (ADA). Before when I did a similar test, I remember the GH and KH raising slightly when I did test for them...I never knew why. Could it be the Powersand? Tourmaline BC? The Aquasoil itself?



Tex Gal said:


> *How about a full tank shot of those beautiful plants?! *


I don't have a full tank shot yet (the foreground is cluttered in new plants), but here's a few you might like:

*Rotala sp. 'Vietnam':*









*Posostemon stellata 'narrowleaf':*









*Hygrophila angustifolia:*









*Rotala macrandra:*


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Cavan Allen said:


> I don't know why you haven't run into problems so far, but using only 100% RO doesn't sound like a good idea _at all_ ( I don't mean to sound harsh). You're looking at buffer issues, osmotic regulation problems for both plants and fish, and lots more; that's all I can think of at 5 in the morning. There can't be enough calcium and so on from the trace mix alone. How long have you been doing this? It's not uncommon to have the tank looking superb (due to low nutrient levels) right before the bottom falls out.
> 
> I agree with Bryce that high light is no problem at all if one keeps up with fertilizers. It's a great situation for farm tanks in particular.


Buffer? I am using pure RO, AquaSoil and injecting co2. The buffer is the acidic stuff 

I thought it was my Eco providing calcium and magnesium until I see Cryptocoryne cordata 'Rosanervig' growing in my new tank with AS. How long until the bottom falls out? Years?

A picture says a thousand words. Avalon your shots are amazing!
Please tell us more about your thoughts of calcium and magnesium. I feel the same.

I dont think there is a problem with high light either!  I think there is more chance of stunting a plant from too much light rather then too much nutrient. Forcing a tank with long duration of high light is always disasterous for me even with autodosing and good co2.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> Buffer? I am using pure RO, AquaSoil and injecting co2. The buffer is the acidic stuff
> 
> I thought it was my Eco providing calcium and magnesium until I see Cryptocoryne cordata 'Rosanervig' growing in my new tank with AS. How long until the bottom falls out? Years?
> 
> ...


Weeks, days, who knows. It all depends I guess. Many times when macro dosing is too low, plants have really vibrant colors before stunting and algae issues arise. Could similar problems show up with a lack of calcium/magnesium? Maybe.

A fish cannot live in pure RO, no matter what. I'm not really qualified to say what would happen if one were subjected to very, very low levels of dissolved solids for an extended period of time. The shots are nice, and if it works out in the end, more power to him. I'm just concerned that it won't work (for plants and fish alike).


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## Brilliant (Jun 25, 2006)

Cavan Allen said:


> Weeks, days, who knows. It all depends I guess. Many times when macro dosing is too low, plants have really vibrant colors before stunting and algae issues arise. Could similar problems show up with a lack of calcium/magnesium? Maybe.
> 
> A fish cannot live in pure RO, no matter what. I'm not really qualified to say what would happen if one were subjected to very, very low levels of dissolved solids for an extended period of time. The shots are nice, and if it works out in the end, more power to him. I'm just concerned that it won't work (for plants and fish alike).


Not only can fish live but they can thrive. If/when you come to the area look me up. Come stop by and see all my stuff.  I think you will be amazed.

Starting to get OT...
I am not suggesting people use pure RO. I started out with RO but learned I can run my tanks on aged tap water or water filtered with micron and carbon. Over the next few weeks I am going to be collecting RO and waste water. Examining the real amount of waste water and possibly switching my tanks from RO to micron/carbon filtered tap.


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> Not only can fish live but they can thrive. If/when you come to the area look me up. Come stop by and see all my stuff.  I think you will be amazed.
> 
> Starting to get OT...
> I am not suggesting people use pure RO. I started out with RO but learned I can run my tanks on aged tap water or water filtered with micron and carbon. Over the next few weeks I am going to be collecting RO and waste water. Examining the real amount of waste water and possibly switching my tanks from RO to micron/carbon filtered tap.


Interesting. Nothing could survive in pure H2O, so I suppose the real question is just how much in the way of dissolved solids is necessary. There has to be _something_ in there. The specific flora and fauna would matter too.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

There is also different levels of RO water, depending on the source and filtration method. Not all RO water is completly void of everything. Distilled water is completly void.

The light issue is more interesting to me than anything else here. You probably already said it somewhere in this conversation, but what was your light before you cut it by 50%? What was it before, and what is it now?


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

If your RO water is from home and you haven't changed your filter you could have an ample supply of TDS in there. I just had my RO filters changed. It went from 270 TDS down to 10. That's a big difference. Perhaps that's what's happening here.


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## Avalon (Mar 7, 2005)

*Robert:* I utilize a 5 stage RO unit. I do not use the 6th DI stage, which I do have on hand. (see below) The light was 2x65w (6700K) Coralife PC. It's now 1x55/65w All-Glass 8000K PC.

*Tex Gal:* My TDS straight out of the RO is low...in the low 20's (good enough for me). It's been said that if I get rid of the 'taste' filter stage (stage 5), the TDS would drop further. Meh. Filters aren't a problem. I've got a bunch of new ones on the ready.

I really find this interesting in the fact that you all are so suprised. You expect a certain outcome but the results defy 'logic.' What exactly are you basing your original assumptions on?

Here's another previous tank of mine...same deal...100g, lower light (2x80w Geissmann 6500K T5HO), ADA substrate, 100% RO (pardon the rock). While you may not notice them all, the plant list in there is staggering.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Avalon it's a gorgeous tank. I don't think people are defying your results. For me I know that plants just need nutrients, including trace minerals, that's all. Obviously your plants are getting what they need, perhaps from the ADA AS. Beautiful!


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## Cavan Allen (Jul 22, 2004)

> I really find this interesting in the fact that you all are so suprised.


I'm not surprised really. I just find it interesting that you can keep that going with such low dissolved solids. Is it better than having more? Necessary? It's never bad to ask questions.



> You expect a certain outcome but the results defy 'logic.'


You seem to be obtaining good results with methods that are a bit different than what a lot of people do. That's bound to foster interest and discussion. Does there really have to be anything more to it than that?



> What exactly are you basing your original assumptions on?


I don't _assume_ that what you're doing will lead to failure. But based on _experience_, I can say that running things on the razor's edge can be tricky.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, if you're using ADA substrate, you can be quite certain that the TDS in the aquarium water is not as low as the RO water that you're adding to the tank. Fish food, micros, critter waste, and large quantities of solutes from the substrate will all raise the TDS. 

There are a number of natural settings that have very, very low TDS levels. Both fish and plants live in those conditions quite nicely.

Avalon, I'd encourage you to start a new thread about this in the appropriate forum. It might make for some interesting discussion.


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