# "Around the corner" or "As good as it gets"!



## Shurik

Hello, everyone! :cheer2:

After many nights and days of reading, thinking and mostly waiting for lights, substrate, plants and everything to arrive, finally HERE IT IS! My first 20 gal planted tank! 
:humble:

I hope I am in the right place and my picture will not blow up the whole forum. I figure I should name the tank. How about something mysterious like “Around the corner” ? Or maybe "As good as it gets"!?It sounds somewhat funny to me. :rofl:

I know I need to change a lot of things in there, but I am so happy I finally got something done at all! Sorry for this valley type of aquascape, but I really wanted to try to make one too! [smilie=l:

My Low Tech specs:
Substrate: about 1 inch of soil and eco-complete on top of it, sloped to the back. The soil is a mixture of 50% Schultz cactus soil (got really tired of picking out that perlite, it was a total insanity! I will never do it again! ) and 50% Home Depot Top soil (waaay too many sticks in there). 

Lights – Hagen TO5 HO two x 24w

Filtration – HOB AquaClear

Plants – arrived without labels, some of them (or perhaps all of them) are not the right plants for this setup, but I guess this is how one learns. 

Fish – need some ideas, I need to pick some easy hardy once. Saw long finned dinos ( I think this is the right name) at local petco and liked them a lot. 

Dosing Flourish Excel, but I don't know if I should.

Now I am just watching what’s going to happen to all of it, the water is still a little cloudy, but I hope it will settle down. 

I would really appreciate any comments and suggestions if something looks obviously wrong with it. If not - I still need to learn as much as possible about everything any way!
Sorry for such a lousy planting job and all, but I guess it was as good as I could get it done, learning everything exclusively by reading this forum and listening to what people say. (I really ended up just shoving up the plants in pretty much random order. I finished setting up this tank sometime after 3 AM, it took me all day long :axe. 

WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? :yield:
Thank you for all your help! 

Cheers!
:hippie:


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## bratyboy2

okay simple suggestions my girl!!!
i hope im not to mean but i like it just need to get some order here


....get mak
get set
....oh crap go!
:boxing:

the lil plants for god sacks i dont remember the name...why not move them to the edges of the lil river you got going on...
the HC clums maybe get them started in the gravel on the left side
break up the crypt bunch and spread them out a bit more in the right side to create a somewhat dence forest thingy


i cant really make out all the stem plants but if you could take a pic of them out of the tank i can really go from there...i think i got a good idea for them so if you can get me a pic i can see if im right atleast lol


as fish go you mentioned the longfinned danios? yah they are really pretty i like the blue ones the most(more silvery blue but still nice)

i would say go with about 8 of them and maybe a few cories of your choice and maybe a mid schooler if your going for a more bioptic tank and you like the danio go with maybe skunk loach or the yo yo loach. and maybe a center piece fish like a gourami pair like peerl gouramis and or maybe do some galaxy rasboras?! idk im running out of ideas lol oh!!!! and maybe a shark!!! yah that would be nice:-D

keep me in contact of the tank like when you post i enjoy your PM's


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## Shurik

Hello, bratyboy2, it is always a pleasure to see you, my dear!
Well, you wanted to see the plants out of the tank – no problem! Here it is!

Actually, you are right about some order, river edges and rearranging the crypts… I don’t actually like them in here at all, they look too big for all this landscape and I think I will take them out all together and replace them with… huh, I don’t know what to replace them with.
So here is the copy of my order, I got the invoice:

Pogostemon helfery (probably will never adapt, melting already)
Red temple (on the right side)
Cryps wendtii (everywhere)
HC rocks – don’t know how to handle them at all (what a nightmare!)
Rotalia indica
Bacopa australis
Ludwigia arcuata
Bacopa monniery
Petite Anubias Nana (can’t see it on the picture, but it is really cute small plant, it would be nice to get more of those for the river bank)
Anubias nana (regular one).

On this optimistic note, I will go to bed because I really need to!


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## bratyboy2

okay well now that i have both pics open in windows to look at here is some ideas oh go this is going to be hard...got the music for thinking and for fun let see what i can think of....


okay i like the crypt so keep it for a bit and see what you think you can always snip the big leaves.


we will start on the left side...

put the temple in the back and plant each stem individually
place the bacopa monnieri in front of that doing the same this will allow you to see the red of the temple and still have enough contrast in leaf shape and color...
the Pogostemon helfery is know to do that so dont fret yet lol just move it to the rock edge and leave it the anubias seem cool where they are so no big deal

now to the right side....
well i would put the rotala in the back corner and plant indiviudally also the grow quick
the ludwigia is something i have not got my hands on but i would put it more up front by the crypt
have the crypt be near the front and create a surrounding affect with the other bacopa like it growing out of the crypt but dont have the crypt actually go around it. the have the ludwigia off to the left of the crypt more to the edge. and the rotala in the back...

wow i hink i about knocked myself out lol :boxing:

i hope you under stand it lol:bathbaby:
keep the hardscape the same though its eye catching 

night night im off to bed see you tomarrow night


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## Tex Gal

I love your hardscape! I love how you have the sticks arching over in the back. I enjoy your river. I like all your plants. I know bratyboy2 has a lot to say, and of course a little tweaking never hurt anyone, but I'm kinda partial to the jungle look, myself. Well most of the fun of a tank is the playing in it and rearranging.


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## goalcreas

Looking good.
I really like the river and rock bank you created. The Downoi that Bratboy is refering to, leave it there, it will spread out and create a ground cover of it's own. Everything will fill in with time and you will have to hone out your trimming skills

You might find that you will want to spread out your stems a little more as the side shoots will fill in really thick in the future.

One tip in this early stage, lots of water changes and make sure to get all the die off out of the tank as it will fuel algae. By that I mean any leaves that melt off the plants while they acclimate to your water params. Any plants that came from vendors, chances are that they were grown emersed and those leaves should and will die off, but don't fret, new ones will quickly fill the void and start to look better and more healthy, but get the dead stuff out for sure.
I have found the easiest way to do so is when you are draining your water for changes, instead of using the gravel vac, just use the hose itself. Then get the siphon going and in the hand that is not in the tank, kind of kink the hose and use your hand to pinch off the suction a little so that you don't pull all the substrate and plants out, but open it enough that it removes what you are want to, just use your hand as sort of a gas pedal and brake combines.
Keep us updated an again, GREAT WORK, you have a tank to be proud of


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## owenj

Looks very nice. I too am a bit partial to a jungle-ish look compared to something too tightly ordered. I love your wood, is that manzanita? 

If you go w/the danios, I wouldn't recommend a pair of pearl gouramis for 2 reasons: 1) they're pretty large, I think I read that they can reach 5"+. 2) Danios will probably annoy them.
If you go w/loaches or cories keep in mind that they like to be kept in a school.
~Jaime


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## dwalstad

Shurik said:


> I finished setting up this tank sometime after 3 AM, it took me all day long :axe. :


Tank looks great. Nice job!

One comment: With all that soil, I don't think you need the Excel. In some instances, it has caused problems for fish.


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## Shurik

Oh WOW! Thanks to everyone who responded to my post! :bounce:
So many comments, so many things to follow up with, my head is spinning! 
Thanks for all your support, it is really reassuring and uplifting to hear your nice words and opinions.


I have one crucial question to Dwalstad though&#8230;



dwalstad said:


> One comment: With all that soil, I don't think you need the Excel. In some instances, it has caused problems for fish.


All my soil got really compressed under eco-complete, I think it is now about ½ " if not even less then that. Is it enough? I can't change it now. I will definitely try to be careful with the Excel, thanks for the warning.

I am off to change some water as Goalcreas suggested. And definitely first thing in the morning I am going to get a shark, just for my dearest bratyboy2's amusement.ound:

Cheers!


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## bratyboy2

well i think i got knocked down a few pegs here!!! well i have only had they pearls get to about 4 inches full grown and the danios never bothered them well that i saw at least...but its all in the certain fish. the yo yo loach i actually kept single with no issues. but school is mentioned school it is mine would be like 3 sorry. AND YAY!!!! a shark :amen: i get one thing nice lol i like the redtails they are on the smaller side and they get a nice deep black that i love so much and that nice fire red tail!!!! well shurik its up to you to show us what you got my dear!!! amaze me some mre and get a plane ticket and come visit me and setup a tank with me lolound: well pm me latter i enjoy the talks!!


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## dwalstad

Shurik said:


> All my soil got really compressed under eco-complete, I think it is now about ½ " if not even less then that. Is it enough? QUOTE]
> 
> 1/2" of compressed soil is just fine.
> Good luck with your tank!


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## newbie314

Interesting.
I'm setting up my 3rd el natural today for my daughter (2g).

Is it better to plant with the soil wet and no gravel, or let the gravel sit on top for a few hours or days?

I'd be concerned on compressing the roots.


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## Shurik

newbie314 said:


> Is it better to plant with the soil wet and no gravel, or let the gravel sit on top for a few hours or days?
> I'd be concerned on compressing the roots.


Yes, it would be interesting to know about compressing the roots. 
I let the gravel sit on top of the soil because my soil was quite dry, but&#8230; all I know is that I know nothing!:crazy:

What a wonderful day I just had!

First of all, I am really glad that ½" appears to be enough, hooray! Thank you, dwalstad, for your reply.

Second of all, I did get 8 leopard long finned danios and really exited about it.:bounce:

I did change about 25% of the water. And I am trying to take a better picture of the tank with no success. Let's see if this one I just took looks any better.

This is pretty much it for today.


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## dwalstad

newbie314 said:


> Interesting.
> I'm setting up my 3rd el natural today for my daughter (2g).
> 
> Is it better to plant with the soil wet and no gravel, or let the gravel sit on top for a few hours or days?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I recommend that you plant in wet soil with no gravel (otherwise you'll injure plant roots as you force them through the gravel).
> 
> I always thoroughly dampen a dry soil by adding a little water to it. Then quickly but gently place plants as best you can into the wet soil. Spoon dry gravel around the plants. Add water (a couple inches worth). Make sure when you pour water in the tank that you place a flat plate on gravel layer to block water's force, so you don't stir up the soil layer. If the water is a little turbid, you can spoon in more gravel where the turbidity is leaching (e.g., plug up the holes). You can siphon this turbid water off and add more water. If the water is clear, I would just go ahead and fill the tank. But if its not, then repeat the washing process until you get clear water.
> 
> My best advice is to plan ahead, start in the morning, and take your time. Make sure that the plants don't dry out in the process. A little tricky...
> 
> Stickies for "Useful NPT Procedures" are at the top of El Natural forum thread listings. Here's the URL of DataGuru's excellent step-by-step (with pictures!) for setting up a tank with soil:
> 
> http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTankDemo.html


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## dwalstad

newbie314 said:


> Interesting.
> I'm setting up my 3rd el natural today for my daughter (2g).
> 
> Is it better to plant with the soil wet and no gravel, or let the gravel sit on top for a few hours or days?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I recommend that you plant in wet soil with no gravel (otherwise you'll injure plant roots as you force them through the gravel).
> 
> I always thoroughly dampen a dry soil by adding a little water to it. Then quickly but gently place plants as best you can into the wet soil. Spoon dry gravel around the plants. Carefully, add water (just a couple inches worth). Make sure when you pour water in the tank that you place a flat plate on gravel layer to block water's force, so you don't stir up the soil layer. If the water is a little turbid, you can spoon in more gravel and plug up areas where the turbidity is leaching into the water. Then, you can siphon this turbid water off and add a little more water. If the water is clear, I would just go ahead and fill the tank. But if its not, then repeat the washing/gravel adding process until you get clear water. You really want to start out with fairly clear water, so that soil particles don't settle on the plant leaves and start algae growth.
> 
> My best advice is to plan ahead, start in the morning, and take your time. Make sure that the plants don't dry out in the process. A little tricky...
> 
> Stickies for "Useful NPT Procedures" are at the top of El Natural forum thread listings. Here's the URL of DataGuru's excellent step-by-step (with pictures!) for setting up a tank with soil:
> 
> http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTankDemo.html


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## Red_Rose

newbie314 said:


> Is it better to plant with the soil wet and no gravel, or let the gravel sit on top for a few hours or days?
> 
> I'd be concerned on compressing the roots.


This is the way I put in plants in these types of set ups.

I put all of the soil in the tank and spread it out evenly(the soil is dry), then I put the gravel on top. I don't bother washing off the gravel before using it.

When I go to put plants into the soil, I poke my left index finger down through the gravel and soil and I then take the plant stem and put it into the hole where my finger is. After that, I move the gravel up around the stem. When I'm planting larger plants like Crypts, I poke two fingers into the gravel and soil so there's room for the plant to go in. I've never damaged any of the roots this way and when I go to put water into the tank(using a plate like Ms. Walstad had mentioned), I never get any soil coming up from the gravel.


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## Shurik

My life is full of discoveries! (Do I feel stupid or what? ) :heh:

Dear dwalstad! Thanks for pointing out to the stickies, It does have a lot of information in there, almost everything I ever needed to know! The article is even translated into Russian, which is my first language, so I have virtually no excuse not to understand it. Yes, it is that bad with me – I can miss something really huge like that. :shock:

Also I didn’t realize you wrote the whole book, and I will need to get that too.
I am such a dummy! :faint:

Well, I guess it is too late for me to add a little crushed shell now. I wonder what’s going to happen and what to watch out for now.

My PH was around 7.2 and I have no test to check my KH. Can someone recommend a good commercial test for that? :yieldmy local Petco doesn’t have any; I will have to order it on line). 

P.S. I almost did burn the plants while planting, the light was too close to it, but I’ve noticed leaves shrinking just on time. It is very tricky not to damage the roots, not to dry out the plants and not to create a huge mess at the same time. One inch of water above all the substrate was very helpful to me.

Cheers! 
:hippie:


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## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> My PH was around 7.2 and I have no test to check my KH. Can someone recommend a good commercial test for that? :yieldmy local Petco doesn't have any; I will have to order it on line).


I really like Hagen's GH/KH test kit. It's a very simple test to do and the colors are easy to read. 

If you use this test kit, you'll want to be in a ventilated area when testing the KH. The fumes coming from the liquid can be fairly strong. I always do this test in front of an open window.


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## newbie314

Funny.
That is what I did and I never read this post.
3rd tank and you start figuring out the best technique.

I did a big prune on the 20g-long, and took the best specimens and placed them seperatly.
In the mean time after the soil aired overnight, I placed water into the soil.
Definately felt it was a race against time.
I did have to take a little water off the soil, too wet.
I placed the plants in. What dream compared to fighting gravel and making a mess.

I then used my washed gravel (kept it in the water) and used my hands to place it.
One of the cleanest planting yet.
Did have to syphon a tank full, but after the second fill the tank looks clean.
I have a rock bridge that I also use to poor the water onto. Another benefit of decoration.

Red_rose : I agree the Hagen kit is great. Never too sure if one stops when you see a hint of color change or full color change. Sometimes I get a half shade.
Anybody recommend a better Am. test kit. I find the one I have is a little difficult since the colors don't seem to match the card.



dwalstad said:


> newbie314 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.
> I'm setting up my 3rd el natural today for my daughter (2g).
> 
> Is it better to plant with the soil wet and no gravel, or let the gravel sit on top for a few hours or days?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I recommend that you plant in wet soil with no gravel (otherwise you'll injure plant roots as you force them through the gravel).
> 
> I always thoroughly dampen a dry soil by adding a little water to it. Then quickly but gently place plants as best you can into the wet soil. Spoon dry gravel around the plants. Carefully, add water (just a couple inches worth). Make sure when you pour water in the tank that you place a flat plate on gravel layer to block water's force, so you don't stir up the soil layer. If the water is a little turbid, you can spoon in more gravel and plug up areas where the turbidity is leaching into the water. Then, you can siphon this turbid water off and add a little more water. If the water is clear, I would just go ahead and fill the tank. But if its not, then repeat the washing/gravel adding process until you get clear water. You really want to start out with fairly clear water, so that soil particles don't settle on the plant leaves and start algae growth.
> 
> My best advice is to plan ahead, start in the morning, and take your time. Make sure that the plants don't dry out in the process. A little tricky...
> 
> Stickies for "Useful NPT Procedures" are at the top of El Natural forum thread listings. Here's the URL of DataGuru's excellent step-by-step (with pictures!) for setting up a tank with soil:
> 
> http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTankDemo.html
Click to expand...


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## Red_Rose

newbie314 said:


> Red_rose : I agree the Hagen kit is great. Never too sure if one stops when you see a hint of color change or full color change. Sometimes I get a half shade.
> Anybody recommend a better Am. test kit. I find the one I have is a little difficult since the colors don't seem to match the card.


When it comes to the GH/KH test kit, as long as it's, for example, any shade of blue(when it comes to the GH test) then that's all that matters. With the KH, the final colors can either be lime or yellow.

As for an ammonia test kit, which one are you using now? I have the Aquarium Pharmacueticals Freshwater Master test kit and it works great. The colors match up with the ones on the color charts and if they are somewhere in between two colors, then you know that the result is somewhere in between those two. I had tested the water in my 2.5g today and both the ammonia and nitrite were in between 0 and 0.25ppm. It's very easy to read.


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## newbie314

Same brand, but the seperate kit, comes with two bottles.
I just find the color is just so sensitive to the light source i.e. sunlight, flr., incadesent.
Just fussy I guess.

Of course my water is slighly yellow anyways


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## bratyboy2

just shows that when you are not on for one day you miss out on a lot of stuff. but im glad i missed it i would be so lost right now lol glad you got some of the danios you liked they are really nice looking.
when is the shark coming?!?!?!?! lol
i read a bit of the root placing in the soil and gravel and i did all that in the first one and had good results. but as time went on i got lazy lol but still got good results so im not to mad lol.

i see you have not moved any plants yet so you must be bsy or your starting to like the setup. me to lol on both of those subjects lol.

good luck and cant wait to see more


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## Shurik

Hello, everyone!
Yes, I got really busy – I can’t stop watching my new fish! 

Thank you, Red Rose, I am ordering Hagen GH/KH test kit right now. (I kida like the idea of fumes, loud explosions and impressive heavy smell, it supposed to make me look smart 

Well, seriously, I am a little nervous because I don’t have any crushed shells in my aquarium and I am trying to understand what is going on with it. 
I need to think what else I can order to save on shipping (what else can I possible need, maybe some fish treats? Anybody has same danios? )

Thank you for helping me not to deal with all this new to me aquarium hobby on my own.


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## goalcreas

Where are you ordering from.
Some places sell little Aquascaping Tool kits which I find to be a necessity in trimming, planting, and general design and maintenance. If the place you don't order from has a kit, you could get a nice pair of scissors and tweezers to start with. Don't have to be anything fancy or expensive, but they are nice to have around.


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## Shurik

Yes. It is a great idea - tools! Thanks, Goalcreas!:mrgreen:

I was going to order from That Fish Place just because it came up on the Amazon, but I really don't' have to order it in there. 
I used some cosmetic tweezers I could find in the house, but they are not long enough, well, they are just wrong tools. It was not good at all.

I got my drop checker yesterday from AGmagic, that cute looking knock off and their CO2 dispenser (like nano style), still thinking about CO2&#8230; Yap. This is really scary. I don't know if I will be brave enough to try yeast CO2 as of yet.



goalcreas said:


> Where are you ordering from.
> Some places sell little Aquascaping Tool kits which I find to be a necessity in trimming, planting, and general design and maintenance. If the place you don't order from has a kit, you could get a nice pair of scissors and tweezers to start with. Don't have to be anything fancy or expensive, but they are nice to have around.


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## goalcreas

www.azgardens.com has really good scissors and tools, but I don't know if they have the test kit you are looking for.

Word of warning, ONLY buy scissors and dry goods (many are not good deal anyway) not plants or fish/shrimp, they are terrible on those aspects of the business, but many agree, their tools are top and in some cases better then ADA tools.

However, just a 10" tweezer and 10" scissor will work if they have that at That Pet Place / Fish Place


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## Shurik

All right!  What would I do without all of you? I dont' even want to think about it!

Gone shopping.


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## bratyboy2

that pet place is like right next door to me!!! wel about an eight hour drive but its somewhat close lol. i have had danios in alot of my tanks and i like them for the simple fact they give the tanks some real motion.
shurik and goal you would be so proud of me!!!! im planning my 75 gallon co2 injected tank. all DIY! to much planning i have to do lol
okay back to the thread. are you starting to like your tank shurik? meaning the layout?


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## Shurik

Hehehe, bratyboy2, no, I don't like it, I am not satisfied with this planting at all and right now I am trying to let it grow out a little without tearing it down after two days of being set up! [smilie=u:

Also my fish would like me to go away with this shark idea, I think.

[URL]www.azgardens.com[/URL] is doing their shipping only on Mondays. I liked their tool kits and here you go again - I will have to wait! 
Geez, I need some mantra to calm down - who could possibly tell that aquarium hobby is so hectic! :amen:
:fish:


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## goalcreas

I think their shipping on Mondays is only for plants and fish / shrimp.
IIRC, they have different shipping policies for dry goods (I.E. they stock them in their/his garage, but plants are drop shipped, 1 reason they don't arrive in good shape and same with many of the fish / shrimp).

Check again, if it is in stock (on a garage shelf) it might just ship today, it is not yet noon here in AZ.


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## bratyboy2

shurik what you mean about the shark?!?!? am i loosing on something else again?

azgardens really is a S H I T company. my friend ordered from them and was like what happened to my plants? they were in so many pieces and just crap.but as for fish i have no clue i just no none of my friends or club members around here like them. we love aquabotanic.com great stuff and good service.rayer:

hey if you dont like it now change it now then let it grow in lol i do it all the time. i just want my 75 back so i can get going!!!!!!!!! ugh the pressure is on


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## goalcreas

Yes, AZ gardens is a CRAP, TOTAL CRAP company for everything but the tools.
See Jason Baliban's review on his web page about ADA tools and that he went back to the tools from AZ gardens (at least some of them).

Do not order anything but the tools.


That being said, Robert Hudson has some nice and nice priced tools. I am about to try out the long tweezers (too long for your use) and a review will be coming.


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## bratyboy2

go goal you tell them!!! lol hope non of them read this!


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## Shurik

I lost that Shark theme myself, so never mind, bratyboy, never mind. 

I still ordered the tools from those guys, stainless steel can not go bad any way. And think I can wait until Monday, I don’t have to trim anything right now any way. Let’s see what I’ll get. 
I used to have the whole bunch of real medical tools, but it was like generations ago, I still miss them (you need them in the house any way), so I would get those even if I had no aquarium at all. 

I really like tools, stop laughing at me, bratyboy! :rofl:


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## bratyboy2

so wait are we getting a shark?
congrats on the tools:mrgreen:
sorry im giggly today for no reason.


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## Shurik

I am always giggly with no reason, so as long as we don't get kicked out of here... 
I did have some problems with it in school, you can tell


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## bratyboy2

im in college now and still getting in trouble


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## Shurik

The giggling may NOT go away ever, :heh:
I am like almost 20 years out of college, but still… :crazy:

Any way, what’s your plan for your new tank and where is your thread about it? It is going to be big enough for that SHARK! :rofl:
I need to figure out how to take better pictures, BTW, they are not coming good at all.


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## bratyboy2

actually the picures are not that bad i can see them well enought o know whats going on in the tank. he he.

the tank is going to be diy compressed co2 and reactor with the help of another member from the site.
i have now decided on the tank yet there are 4 at work i like and then i do have one that my old manager has that i might buy back. opinions are as followed: 30 something flat back pentagon, 40 gallon long(not deep enough for some plants i like), 47 gallon bow front, 60 gallon high tank...really really nice just dont know if i can get the lighting i need yet. and then 75 great dimensions and a lot of options for plants and scaping. the forum wont start till i have everything and i mean everything!!! then it will be a fun filled post with a lot of pictures!!!! yay....i have no clue what fish im going to get but there will be atleast 3 sharks...one redtail one rainbow and one albino rainbow. other fish will be a pick when i get to the store maybe i will get 2 discus from my buddy again pigeon blood and white dragon. yah that sounds good who knows:heh:


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## Shurik

*Green Algae has arrived!*

now what? [smilie=u:


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## bratyboy2

um algae eaters? lol i dont know what catches your eyes? you will probably going to end up with otos but i think its to soon for them right now. or you could go with a bristle nose those are cute neat and fun to watch and an do they get the algae gone. my female took out a hole back wall in just one night


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## goalcreas

Get a couple(3 to 6 depending on size, if they are about the size of a small marble, get 4 to 5 if they are about the size of the BIG marble, get about 2 to 3) of olive nerite snails, they are great for cleaning the glass and the GSA.
They should survive the early stages of the tank.
After that get about 4 amano shrimp and an otto.


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## bratyboy2

i thought otos like to be in groups?


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## Shurik

Ah-ha, this was my biggest concern – surviving early stage of aquarium. I don’t want to add any fish as of yet, (I will read another fifty pages about it first), but snails would be great.

Petco don’t have olive nerite snails, I can’t believe I will have to order them on line too!

Do you know any place I should not be afraid to order them?

Thanks for advice, guys![smilie=w:


----------



## goalcreas

Ordering them might suck, they might charge the overnight live shipping.
If you can find a place that will ship them for a good cost.

Wait, there is a person that sells them here.
Search the for sale section and maybe put a WTB add and try to get them from somebody that will ship them like plants for like $6 for shipping. You should get them for about $1 each, if they are large, might be $2 ea.

There is a place in CA that sells them, Karma Farm or something like that, look them up on www.aquabid.com do you ever look on aquabid?

Check APC for sale first, then go to Aquabid, that would be the way to go.

Apple snails and spixy (I think that is what they are called) are good also and the latter I think is supposed to EAT nuisance snails.


----------



## Shurik

Yea, I am getting sick of paying 20 bucks for shipping just about everywhere I go to. It adds up to a fortune because I order a lot. Petco do have apple snails (yellow once), I’ll go there tomorrow just to check up on it.

Went off to aquabid, never been there yet! 

Bristlenose is awfully cute, bratyboy, but it gets HUGE, doesn’t it?


----------



## goalcreas

3 to 5 inches. Mine have stayed small, they are about 2 years old and breeding, but not huge, but I have seen bigger. I think 10 gallons is a bit small for them though, maybe 1 would be OK.
I don't find them to be good algae eaters, they mostly feed off my wood, and wood is a must because they need it to help their digestive system.


----------



## bratyboy2

mine is about 4 inches and she is beautiful i have a long finned albino and i need a male for her...just dont know where i can get a male calico from yet. yah one is enough for the tank. but follow what goal says about the snails heck they might just do it for yah


----------



## Shurik

OOO!!!!!!! I just went to aquabid.  What a great place, thanks for pointing it out.

At some point of my life I was taking care of someone’s overcrowded tank and it wasn’t a pretty picture, fish looked stranded and unhappy. So I’ll get bristlenose when I get bigger tank. (Hopefully it is not going to happen tomorrow!:drool

Now I got too much of a choice on aquabid. Apple snail, Spixi or Olive nerite?


----------



## bratyboy2

go with olives the apples ate my anubias last time i had one hate them buggers


----------



## goalcreas

I have only kept nerites, 3 in my PICO REEF and 3 in my 30 gallon.
The only thing I don't like is the EGG SACKS they leave all arounduke:

But they only hatch in SW tanks (or brackish, not sure) and not in FW so you don't have to worry about them getting out of control.

OH and best thing for nuisance snail control, as soon as your water param's are good, add a dwarf puffer (if they are good with your daino's, I have one in my 75 with all sorts of stuff, but I hear they can be aggressive, just never saw it) and they will eat up all the little snails so that you will never see them.
I always put them in new tanks so the snails don't get out of control and then I keep them in there and I have never had a problem, but if others have had trouble with then and your other fish, listen to them. I am keeping them with rummynose and apisto's and angels and some tri-color loach (or something like that, got them at Pets Inc. because they were cool looking) and no trouble.


----------



## Shurik

Eww, I think I know, those egg sacks are look like white dots everywhere, that doesn’t look too cool. And apple snails eats anubias and bratyboy calls them buggers :mrgreen: (that’s a valid point!)

I guess there is no such thing as a perfect snail, I can't win, so I’ll get… something. On aquabid they sell them in huge quantities, and maybe it is a good thing – I will go for a walk tomorrow to that Petco I don’t like.

As of puffers – they where my dream for a while, but people do say they are somewhat difficult to keep and they are aggressive little things with a lot of personality. I guess they do OK in your 75 gal because you have such a big space for the rest of fish to get away from them. 

I really like kuhli loaches, I used to have them, they where great, but now I have two substrates separated and those guys will destroy my landscape in one second, they like to stir up the bottom and hide underneath the gravel. They look like little striped snakes with black and orange stripes, probably this is what you say is “try-color loaches”. How are they doing with digging up everything you have? 

So many fish I want, so little space I have! 
:-|


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Eww, I think I know, those egg sacks are look like white dots everywhere, that doesn't look too cool. And apple snails eats anubias and bratyboy calls them buggers :mrgreen: (that's a valid point!)
> 
> I guess there is no such thing as a perfect snail, I can't win, so I'll get&#8230; something. On aquabid they sell them in huge quantities, and maybe it is a good thing - I will go for a walk tomorrow to that Petco I don't like.


There are many types of apple snails so which ones are you referring to? Pomacea canaliculata and the Marisa species(there's only two of them) are not picky eaters and they will clear out a planted tank in no time. The best type of apple snail to get is the Pomacea bridgesii. They only eat dead or diseased plants, fish wastes and a bit of algae. You can also feed them blanched green beans and lettuce too. I have three of these little guys. Two are in my 10g and one is in my 2.5g. They are great little cleaners as are Zebra nerites(Neritina natalensis is a true freshwater species). Zebras are kick-ass algae cleaners and they also eat fish wastes as well but they prefer algae. I have yet to come across any eggs in my 10g since they've been in there but I could have two males. With these guys, I'd rather see tiny egg sacks in the tank instead of a lot of unsightly algae.


----------



## goalcreas

I also kept a puffer in a 10 gallon with a trio of Apisto Hongsloi's and some tetra's.
No problems.
As I said, some seem to think they are trouble, but I have never experienced any trouble with them and 
I REALLY ENJOY a snail free tank. (nuisance snails that is)


----------



## Shurik

Thank you, Red Rose. I am going to write down all the names of all the snails and what they are and in a couple of hours off to Petco I go. It’s really nice outside. :wave:

Hmmm… Puffers! [smilie=w:


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Thank you, Red Rose. I am going to write down all the names of all the snails and what they are and in a couple of hours off to Petco I go. It's really nice outside. :wave:
> 
> Hmmm&#8230; Puffers! [smilie=w:[/QUOTE]
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> Do you plan on keeping loaches(especially clown loaches) or puffers in your tank? If so then it's best not to get any snails.


----------



## Shurik

Dear Red Rose, I already have 8 longfinned leopard danios in there, and since it is my first (big) planted tank, I realize I have to stay with something very traditional and hardy. I don’t think I am ready to see any disastrous actions; I really don’t want to, I’ve decided to play it safe. Yes, I am a wimp! ound:

Plus I have to wait and see how everything is establishing. For now I see that green fuzz starting to appear and it is even brownish, if you wipe it off with some white tissue. That is very entertaining to me already!

Clown loaches eat snails?8-[


----------



## goalcreas

Loaches best for no snails.
But the teeny tiny dwarf puffer, I don't think he can do anything to a large nerite or apple snail.
Could be wrong however.

Good points Red Rose


----------



## goalcreas

Shurik said:


> Clown loaches eat snails?8-[


Oh yeah, they love em, one of the best fish to put in a tank that is overrun with snails.


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Dear Red Rose, I already have 8 longfinned leopard danios in there, and since it is my first (big) planted tank, I realize I have to stay with something very traditional and hardy. I don't think I am ready to see any disastrous actions; I really don't want to, I've decided to play it safe. Yes, I am a wimp! ound:
> 
> Plus I have to wait and see how everything is establishing. For now I see that green fuzz starting to appear and it is even brownish, if you wipe it off with some white tissue. That is very entertaining to me already!
> 
> Clown loaches eat snails?8-[


It's all good! I like to play it safe too when it comes to this type of set up. The only fish I have is a male betta and two male fancy guppies. 

When I had first set up my 10g, I did get some diatoms in there but they're gone now thanks to my Zebras. Is this fuzz forming on the glass or on the plants? I'm just curious, is all. 

Clown loaches are a predator to snails. Even some bettas are too depending on how aggressive they are. I think clown loaches have been known to even eat nerites and they are a type of snail that a lot of snail-eating fish have a difficult time trying to eat because of their hard shells!



goalcreas said:


> Loaches best for no snails.
> But the teeny tiny dwarf puffer, I don't think he can do anything to a large nerite or apple snail.
> Could be wrong however.
> 
> Good points Red Rose


Thank you! I wasn't sure if the smaller puffers could eat the larger snails.  I pretty sure that porcupine puffers can eat almost any type of snail but I didn't know if the dwarfs could. How big are dwarf puffers? I don't know much about them.


----------



## goalcreas

Red_Rose said:


> How big are dwarf puffers? I don't know much about them.


They start tiny, about the size of a pea if you get them really young, then they are about the size of a grape when they are grown.


----------



## Red_Rose

goalcreas said:


> They start tiny, about the size of a pea if you get them really young, then they are about the size of a grape when they are grown.


 Wow! I had no idea that they were that small! Oh, if I had more room for a couple of more aquariums, I'd have one tank of male guppies and another one of dwarf puffers!


----------



## bratyboy2

im think about setting up a 16 bow for them myself. i think it would be really neat full planted and with all the snails i have from the other tanks lol


----------



## Shurik

What a wonderful walk to Petco I had! Full of dreams about those puffers, snails, mail betas and endless beauty of the Universe and everything we talked about in here. :yawinkle:

My bucolic mood was shattered by the site of a few mystery snails for sale I discovered in the store. They were on their last leg and looked kinda dead, all covered with algae uke: and now I am back to aquabid. 

My algae farm is doing very well, so well that I had to take a picture of it. :shock:
Apparently now I have brown algae, blue algae, green algae and green hair algae nicely developing.

On top of that my PH is doing what it was doing for two years of my another 10 gal foster tank (I got two gold fish in there and they are going into my friends pond as soon as it is ready for them). So the PH is constantly climes up to 8. I had a drift wood in there and no stones or anything else. I simply gave up on trying understanding what makes it so high. 
Now it’s happening all over again in my new beautiful 20 gal! Everything is different about this set up, yet PH is climbing up again. This time I do have some rocks in there, but they are all slate or shale. The soil I have underneath eco-complete has plenty of pit moss…

Yes, I did open some articles about water chemistry and I even attempted to read it… I think it is actually most difficult subject I ever attempted to understand.

Should I just ignore this matter again and let it be where it wants to be, since it was pretty stable up there for my 10 gal, and I assume it will get stuck just like that for my 20 gal this time? 
Phew, my KH/GH test is going to be shipped only on Monday. 
How do people attach several pictures to one post in the way Goalcreas does, so they don’t look like microscopically tiny thumbnails? 
I think you can still see all the brown spots, bluish spots on the stone, green hair on the stone and all of this is starting to choke the plants. 

Oh, I got so many questions, my head is spinning! Maybe I shouldn’t be this neurotic and let everything be like it is.:mmph:

Where should I go from this point? 
Should I get yeast CO2 (can’t do pressurized now)? Add more light with it? Start dosing something? :|

All I knowhow to do well is the water change for now, really!


----------



## Red_Rose

How much light does the tank get a day? 12-14 hours is normally the recommended amount of lighting for El natural tanks. If you keep the lights on for less then that, try leaving them on for longer to see what happens.  Also, floating and emergent plants are also good at combating algae so you might want to get some more of those if you don't have many to begin with.

I wouldn't add any fertilizers just yet. Some people sprinkle some fishfood in the tank, even when there is no fish in there yet, for the plants so you could see if that helps any as well.

As for your pictures, the last one looks like Hair algae and the first one looks like Black Beard Algae(BBA). I had both of these types of algae in my 10g. I only have a very small bit of hair algae left and all of the BBA that was in my tank was eaten up by my Zebras. They are a great little snail to have! I even have a before and after picture of part of the cave decoration that's in my betta's tank that was once covered in algae but is now clean if you would like to see it. 

Oh and here's a link to a page that explains GH, KH and pH that's really easy to understand. It helped me out quite a bit when I was first learning about these tanks.


----------



## Shurik

Oh, even better – BBA! :heh: It would make my gallery of algae complete! [smilie=u:

Thank you Red Rose, for the link about KH/GH, it is nice to see you again! :cheer2:

I will make another attempt to get some understanding on this topic. Hopefully next week I’ll get the test for it and then… Everything will be just great!

I do sprinkle some food in there because I have 8 danios in there. And my light is about 12 hours of two HO T5 x 24 w. Sometimes I forget to turn it off after it (I do have a timer some place in the house), becasue I just like staring on it instead of TV or a fireplace. 

Oh, and yes, I just bought 5 olive Neritina natalensis on aquabid, like you all suggested. :high5:
I hope they are as good as Zebras.

For some strange reason I feel like changing some of the water… :biggrin:


----------



## goalcreas

I load my pictures to a host site (I use www.photobucket.com) and when you upload the pics, you will see them with 4 windows below each picture.
The bottom bar starts and ends with .
That it the one you want.

You put your mouse over the window and click on it and it Auto Copies it.
Then you go to your post and PASTE it.

It shows up as a long string of text sort of like this

[img] http photobucket/whatever/109849-5-984 [IMG]

I used spaces that will not be there so it would show up in this post and not as an error, but you get the idea.
You can put many of these in one post plus you won't run out of space for your downloads on this site.
If you ever pull up an old post and find boxes with no photo's, it is because a user deleted them to make room for more in newer threads, and that can be frustrating to the viewer.

Now you can type above it and below this line, you can add spaces in between the lines and you can put text above each line so you can add comments to your photo's.

You will need to log onto photobucket, create an account, and then you can figure it out, it is easy.
You can make different folders just like it were on your compute so you can keep better track of your web albums and the like.

HTH


----------



## Shurik

[edited]
What a great linlk, thank you, Rose! Awesome! Finally it is written for some who plays piano! 
Now I see that it is a good thing that I forgot to add crushed shells in there, is it? It would make my PH matter even worse. And it is asking for CO2, I guess.
All right, I am back to reading!

AAA!!!! Goalcres is here! 
Phew. I feel better already!


----------



## goalcreas

Wait, 12 hours of light will grow more algae then you will ever want unless you can find a way to sell it off

For a new tank with HO lights you should be at about 4 hours for the first week, then up to 5 for the next, then up to 6 the next and keep doing so until you are at about 8 max.

You need to let the plants root and start to grow so they will out compete the algae for nutrients.
When you start a tank with that much light before the plants start to grow, only algae will take off.

Back off to about 4 hours for now until you get the algae thing under control, then up it slowly to get to about 7 to 8 hours and leave it.

Even if your plants were winning the war against the algae, with that much light, you would have to t5rim your tank every other day


----------



## Shurik

All right! yes, this is exactly what I was curious about, thanks, Goalcres, I will definately go to photobucket. And now I see how you get the pics into your text body. 

I really admire amount of patience you have, to read all this, to explain everything... Wow! 

Thank you so much! 

Ay, caramba!!! :shock: [smilie=l:
Too much light! 
(But it looks so pretty! )
OK. Lights are off. [smilie=l:


----------



## goalcreas

Come on, it is Fun staying involved in threads like this and helping where and when you can.


And anybody and everybody started out where you did, 

There are my mentors out there, John N., Roy Deki, Robert Hudson, Chiahead to name a few, ones that were there always there for me when I was on the path to Stupid


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Oh, even better - BBA! :heh: It would make my gallery of algae complete! [smilie=u:
> 
> Thank you Red Rose, for the link about KH/GH, it is nice to see you again! :cheer2:
> 
> I will make another attempt to get some understanding on this topic. Hopefully next week I'll get the test for it and then&#8230; Everything will be just great!
> 
> I do sprinkle some food in there because I have 8 danios in there. And my light is about 12 hours of two HO T5 x 24 w. Sometimes I forget to turn it off after it (I do have a timer some place in the house), becasue I just like staring on it instead of TV or a fireplace.
> 
> Oh, and yes, I just bought 5 olive Neritina natalensis on aquabid, like you all suggested. :high5:
> I hope they are as good as Zebras.
> 
> For some strange reason I feel like changing some of the water&#8230; :biggrin:[/QUOTE]
> 
> You're welcome, dear! :hippie: GH and KH use to confuse me too when I first started reading up on it but it's nothing to me now. Some people are confused as to the differences between the GH and KH. Is that what you're having a problem with? If so, then I would be happy to explain it to you.
> 
> You bought the Neritina natalensis species? Was there a picture of them posted when you bought them? The reason I ask is because that is the name of the Zebras that I have. Here's a picture of Zeke, one of my little Zebras. :heart: If the snails you bought look like this then you have the same snails that I have! The Olive nerites latin name is Vitta usnea.
> 
> Some people do make a water change when they have a bit of algae in there tanks. Who knows? It just might help! I certainly don't think it would hurt anything.


----------



## goalcreas

Red_Rose said:


> Some people do make a water change when they have a bit of algae in there tanks. Who knows? It just might help! I certainly don't think it would hurt anything.


Hair algae loves new water and seems to get worse after water changes. Fortunatly, it is one that can be dealt with and doesn't seem to be a long term problem.

Others it is best to change water.

for hair, a molly or a flag fish or amano shrimp will eat it. (flag fish devour it, if you could get one on loan from the pet store, or buy it and bring it back, that would be cool)


----------



## Red_Rose

goalcreas said:


> Hair algae loves new water and seems to get worse after water changes. Fortunatly, it is one that can be dealt with and doesn't seem to be a long term problem.


I didn't know that. I just learnt something new today.


----------



## Shurik

Oh no, those Neritina I got looked a little different, they had tiny zigzags on them, but they look related. There was another Zebra (for $9.99 as a start up price for each, and I bolted out of there :bolt.

I am trying to get off that Path to Stupidity and tempering with photobucket so I can use the picture option a little better... 

Actually, off the topic a little, last night just because of all that algae hobby I got, I had to use manual mode on my camera, figure out aperture and exposure and learned a great deal about traditional photography. I probably would never bother to look into it if not for the aquarium 

GH and KH are the mystery to me. I don’t’ know if I have any problems with it, but I understand that my high PH probably has something to do with it. This is why I wanted to know those parameters. Also I was unhappy that I didn't use the sells, but now I am not sure if I ever should. 
I know that my tab water has altered PH down to 7, they are tempering with it in some way. Basically, it is my endless curiosity about all the things drives me slightly huh… what’s the nice word for it?... :crazy:

Now I am confused if I should change the water... Mmmm... OK, I'll just flip the coin!


----------



## goalcreas

Like I said, hair algae is one of the easier ones to deal with IME and for the others the water change would be recommended, so go for it


----------



## neilfishguy

dwalstad said:


> One comment: With all that soil, I don't think you need the Excel. In some instances, it has caused problems for fish.


I dont understand this...

Soil and excel have nothing to do with each other...excel is a carbon source and soil isnt. I think dosing excel is a good idea.


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Oh no, those Neritina I got looked a little different, they had tiny zigzags on them, but they look related. There was another Zebra (for $9.99 as a start up price for each, and I bolted out of there :bolt.
> 
> I am trying to get off that Path to Stupidity and tempering with photobucket so I can use the picture option a little better...
> 
> Actually, off the topic a little, last night just because of all that algae hobby I got, I had to use manual mode on my camera, figure out aperture and exposure and learned a great deal about traditional photography. I probably would never bother to look into it if not for the aquarium
> 
> GH and KH are the mystery to me. I don't' know if I have any problems with it, but I understand that my high PH probably has something to do with it. This is why I wanted to know those parameters. Also I was unhappy that I didn't use the sells, but now I am not sure if I ever should.
> I know that my tab water has altered PH down to 7, they are tempering with it in some way. Basically, it is my endless curiosity about all the things drives me slightly huh&#8230; what's the nice word for it?... :crazy:
> 
> Now I am confused if I should change the water... Mmmm... OK, I'll just flip the coin!


Sometimes, the Zebras that I have will have a zigzag pattern to them instead of just a straight line. If the stripes are black and the rest of them is a brown color, then I'm almost positive that they are the same as the little guys that I have. 

I'll try to explain the differences between the GH and KH for you. 

GH(General Hardness) is how hard or soft your water is. When people say "I have soft water", they are referring to the GH. In NPT's you should have a hardness of at least 8dGH. If you have very hard water and you want to attempt to soften it, you can use peat in a nylon sock placed either in a filter or in a corner of the aquarium. I am currently doing this for my 10g.

KH(Carbonate Hardness) is the buffer for the pH. The higher the KH is, the more stable your pH will be but if you want to lower your pH, you will have a more difficult time doing so. When it's lower, you can alter your pH fairly easily but it won't be as stable and depending on how low it is, your pH could crash. Injecting CO2 into the water can lower the KH but if you're trying to lower your GH, the KH will also go down too. I've noticed this in my 10g.  A KH of at least 3-4dKH is recommended for aquariums to prevent the pH from crashing or fluctuating.

The one type of algae that I have a bit of in my 10g is fuzz algae and I've noticed that ever since I added peat moss to the filter, the algae dies off.



neilfishguy said:


> I dont understand this...
> 
> Soil and excel have nothing to do with each other...excel is a carbon source and soil isnt. I think dosing excel is a good idea.


The whole point of this type of set up is to not add fertilizers. Fishfood and fish wastes is the fertilizer for these types of tanks.


----------



## Shurik

Red Rose, you are so great at explaining things! :mrgreen:
Thank you! 

I got really tired today, I've done bunch of things including some water change and moving plants around alittle, tomorrow I will take a picture of what it is look like now.

But for now - quick "sound check" of Fotobacket.










This is the snail I am expecting to arrive sometime next week.  Well, not this particular one of coarse, but of this kind and 5 of them.

WOW! This picture came up really huge!  Thanks to Goalcreas! This is awesome! ound:

Good night, everybody!


----------



## goalcreas

Good job, I knew you would figure it out.\\/


----------



## Shurik

Dear Goalcreas, after your thorough directions it would be too embarrassing not to figure out how to use photobucket. 

And now&#8230; Well, this is a planting felony, I think. 
Welcome to my salad bar! Serving "a la furshet"

The crypts are gone, but&#8230; what a mess, what a selection of plants, oh good god!

Salad bar from the right









Salad bad from the left









Yes, I know, I know&#8230;:???:


----------



## bratyboy2

shurik you got photos for us? and i really like the snails you beat me to the post ha ha so i guess i will look at the pics now and then post my reactions


----------



## bratyboy2

okay i dont know what i think of it really...hmm i got nothing


----------



## Shurik

I know, bratyboy, I got nothing myself, it is a total mess! Too tired to do anything about it.
Ewww!... 
The only good thing about it is picture quality improvement, hehehe! Well, it is better then nothing.

Any way, how is your new Napoleon 55 gal. plan going?


----------



## goalcreas

I got my bowl, fork and balsamic vinegar out and ready to eat.
Yum Yum


----------



## Shurik

Yeaaaa!...
Lot's of vitamins! :hungry:
All right then, my new motto for my own self is going to be

*The Beatings Will Continue Until Planting Improves*




goalcreas said:


> I got my bowl, fork and balsamic vinegar out and ready to eat.
> Yum Yum


----------



## bratyboy2

what 55? and well i have the name for the log shurik!!! lol thanks but i think im going to drive an hour away for a good sale on some big tanks soon. like 125 or bigger tank lol going to do a big amazon tank. or maybe planted who knows. yeah im still at a loss. but im not into salad so im going to pass it off to rose...take my share i dont want to eat it i dot a dr.pepper and some other goodies over here lol


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

So were is the petite nana farm?


----------



## Tex Gal

I think you have a terminal case of collectoritis!.. too many types of plants in too small an area. I'm trying to get my collectoritis in remission! It's a very hard disease to treat - much less cure!


----------



## goalcreas

Yeah, but you GOTTA do it when you start up, it is unavoidable.
There are just too many COOL plants and just too small of tanks, houses, towns:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


----------



## Shurik

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
Exactly, I HAD to do it, and now I don't even know what type of counseling I need. It IS terminal, Rose.

Dear Jeff, I do have your annubias in there, all five of them, now I have to figure out what to do with the rest of them. Oh, I don’t even want to look at this Bar as of now! Yuck! uke:

I can put my gold fish in there and they will eat all of it – that’s another way to deal with plants. 

BTW, since I disturbed their house as well, they don’t look too happy to me. They stay low to the bottom and they doing it for a couple of days now. They look active and lively, only if they see me walking into the room, (and as they see me all right) – poof! They run into the corner (there is no corners, aquarium is cylinder shaped), but they do hide from me and stay low. I know it may be sign of lots of bad things. I checked the water – besides usual high PH, there is nothing special going on, everything reads 0 and I change the water a lot any way.


----------



## Shurik

Oh, it wasn't Rose, it was Tex Gal who diagnosed me precisely! Hello! 

I am missing things.


----------



## goalcreas

Find your local chapter of PA (plantaholics anonymous) and get to a meeting QUICK.


----------



## Shurik

I will definitely go to PA. Sure! I am on my way… Only after I get another badge of java ferns (that very last one[smilie=u, Christmas moss, Ludwigia cuba and I think treasure chest with jumping skeleton will definitely improve my layout! artyman:

(sounds like I need some major intervention )


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Red Rose, you are so great at explaining things! :mrgreen:
> Thank you!
> 
> I got really tired today, I've done bunch of things including some water change and moving plants around alittle, tomorrow I will take a picture of what it is look like now.
> 
> But for now - quick "sound check" of Fotobacket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the snail I am expecting to arrive sometime next week.  Well, not this particular one of coarse, but of this kind and 5 of them.
> 
> WOW! This picture came up really huge!  Thanks to Goalcreas! This is awesome! ound:
> 
> Good night, everybody!


You're welcome! I like to try to help when I can. [smilie=h:

Ah! You have Olive snails coming your way! They're cute little guys that get a bit bigger then a dime.  It's almost impossible to find them at any of the LFS' here!


----------



## Shurik

Rose!
Thank god you are here! :cheer2: Look at what kind of a disaster I created! :heh:
What is LFS?


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

LFS = Local fish store


----------



## Shurik

I have a question. :yield:

Here is my gold fish's tale, it has some black lines, one you can see on this picture almost like dot, another is going at the edge of the tale. Both of fishes don't act normally and sit at the bottom of the fish tank, eat but don't come up to the surface and play. No other visual signs of anything else.
And this is after I put them through a lot of stress.










Should I treat them with Maracyne?


----------



## yum

nice looking tank! good aquascaping (unlike my overgrown mess)

http://www.wilmasthecause.org/ check out this site for nerites. you could probably find them cheaper elsewhere but this lady runs a charity and ships out "snail thank you packs" for donations. i have only heard good things about the shipping and quality of the snails and it's for a good cause. i will be ordering some in the next month or so.

as for fish choices, i was looking for really small fish for my 20 gallon so i could have more and limited my choices to: 3 ottos for algae, red cherry shrimp for general clean up and neato factor, 6 pygmy cories for fun (they have the funniest swimming patterns and are the tiniest of the cories). i was thinking of either a dwarf gourami of some kind for a centerpiece or killifish. killis are really hardy and some have colors that rival saltwater. i really wanted to get some clown killis b/c of their cool striped look and insane rocket thruster tails. unfortunately the gf wanted fancy guppies so we bought a pair. 2 days later they spawned and now i have 20+ guppies to get rid of before i can even consider doing anything else. sigh. at least with the ridiculous bioload in my tank there is still zero ammonia. GO EL NATURAL! (did i mention there is no filter as well?) GO EL NATURAL X 100!

as for the algae issue: i've got a bit of a hair algae problem as well and my tank is to the brim with plants, so i'm not sure what nutrients the hair algae is living on. i would have thought all the duckweed and other bits would have soaked up all the nutrients and starved the algae. (yeah, i'm a collector too, or rather a junk collector. i took every plant no one wanted from a local club meeting and stuffed them in the tank) alas, it is not so.


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Rose!
> Thank god you are here! :cheer2: Look at what kind of a disaster I created! :heh:
> What is LFS?


What disaster? I think your tank looks great! I think it looks a lot better then my betta's 10g!

Sorry about that.:doh: LFS is a shorter way of saying Local Fish Store. 

Have you tested the water that your goldfish is in for ammonia? I'm pretty sure goldfish(or any fish, for that matter) can get black streaks on their fins from ammonia poisoning. Ammonia poisoning is not fun in any way. When my 2.5g got an ammonia spike, I had to remove my guppies from there but unfortunately, the ammonia took its toll on them. They both ended up with Ich and died today.:-( They tried to fight it off(I had aquarium salt in there for them) but unfortunately, it was too much for them.


----------



## Shurik

Dear Rose!
I am so sorry about your guppies, it is very sad to loose the fish… 

On the positive note, I think you probably saved my two guys, imagine that!  (If I am not too late to help them).

I did test my water for everything the other day; I do it daily because both of my fish tanks are going through new tank syndrome. But I never expected that ammonia can spike THAT much in a few hours! So I did test it again after reading your post, and you where right - it was unbelievably high. Good thing I listened to Goalcreas and my own instincts and did change some water yesterday in both tanks! :faint2:

I just don’t understand why it spiked so much. I aired out the soil for a week before I used it. I tested it in the bottle and all. Oh well... 

Any way, right now I got two contradicting things going on. Antibiotic kills all the bacteria, or most of it. And I need those bacteria to start converting all that ammonia into nitrate. Should I stop antibiotic and just stick only to water change? 

Needles to say, today I wasn’t thinking about the algae, aquascape and … missed my Plantoholics Anonymous meeting! ound:

I see I am not the only one who collects all kinds of plants in one tiny aquarium. Thank you, Yum, for your snail link, but I already got mine on aquabid. That’s OK, I can always get more snails some other day! It would be great to see how your tank is doing.

Oh… I am too tired to think about new fish right now. I’ve heard that there are some annual killies, they live only for one year. And some others are not. Which ones are not annual and hardy, does anybody knows? I like them too.


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> Dear Rose!
> I am so sorry about your guppies, it is very sad to loose the fish&#8230;
> 
> On the positive note, I think you probably saved my two guys, imagine that!  (If I am not too late to help them).
> 
> I did test my water for everything the other day; I do it daily because both of my fish tanks are going through new tank syndrome. But I never expected that ammonia can spike THAT much in a few hours! So I did test it again after reading your post, and you where right - it was unbelievably high. Good thing I listened to Goalcreas and my own instincts and did change some water yesterday in both tanks! :faint2:
> 
> I just don't understand why it spiked so much. I aired out the soil for a week before I used it. I tested it in the bottle and all. Oh well...
> 
> Any way, right now I got two contradicting things going on. Antibiotic kills all the bacteria, or most of it. And I need those bacteria to start converting all that ammonia into nitrate. Should I stop antibiotic and just stick only to water change?
> 
> Needles to say, today I wasn't thinking about the algae, aquascape and &#8230; missed my Plantoholics Anonymous meeting! ound:
> 
> I see I am not the only one who collects all kinds of plants in one tiny aquarium. Thank you, Yum, for your snail link, but I already got mine on aquabid. That's OK, I can always get more snails some other day! It would be great to see how your tank is doing.
> 
> Oh&#8230; I am too tired to think about new fish right now. I've heard that there are some annual killies, they live only for one year. And some others are not. Which ones are not annual and hardy, does anybody knows? I like them too.


Thank you, Shurik. Even though I didn't want my little guppies to die, at least they were able to save another fish from going through the same thing as them. 

That also happened to me when I had set up my 10g. Even though I aired out the soil for two weeks, I had still gotten ammonia 2-3 days after the tank was set up. :yell: I was able to get my little betta out of there in time and he suffered no permanent damage.  When that happened, I came on here asking why it did that and I was told that the bacteria was breaking down the organic matter and that was producing ammonia. Also, if you have nitrates in the tank water, you might end up with nitrites too. When there isn't enough oxygen in the water for the bacteria, it will use the nitrates instead and that causes nitrites to build up in the tank. That's something you might want to keep an eye on. 

I think it would be best to just stick with water changes. If you can, it would be a good idea to move your goldfish into another tank so they can get away from the ammonia and if you need to, you can medicate them. Also, what type of floating plants do you have in there? I can't remember if you listed all of the plants you have or not. Even though many despise this vile weed(myself included), Duckweed would be a good thing to get if you can because it's great at sucking up ammonia and nitrites. Once the tank is established, you can just ditch the Duckweed because it can take over the tank! Hornwort and Water Lettuce are also good to have as well.

As for killies, I don't know anything about them so I can't help you with that. Sorry!


----------



## goalcreas

Water changes and raise the temp a few degrees instead of medicating.
Move the fish is they show any more signs of stress.

Do you have open top tanks.
Most all killies are jumpers but I was told Lampeye's are not, don't know from experience, just was told they would be OK in open top tanks, I don't even know what they look like so I don't know if they are pretty or not:noidea:


----------



## Shurik

:shock:OK, 

The air pump is on.
Nitrites are 0.
Temperature is about 79. 
Ammonia keeps climbing up so bad I am changing water every 4 hours or so, every time it is more then 25%.
Placed water lettuce in, but it is drowning because of condensation. 

Obviously I do not have enough of plants to handle all that “silent” cycling and it is not silent by any means – I am swearing all the time running with buckets of water and Chris is helping me with every aspect of this process! :heh:

I definitely need some Duckweed and am going to post it in “For Sale or Trade” if shipped out on Monday. 
What an experience!...

I am going to put in Wisteria, well, I forgot the name of it, but it looks like parsley of some sort, stem plant.

Gold fish is doing somewhat OK, could be better, I don’t know if they will suffer from permanent damage, will see. 
:|


----------



## goalcreas

Did you clean the filter.
Did you look to see if there is something in there or in the tank that might be dead and or rottinguke:

If the tank has been up for a while, I can't see why it would spike unless something like that happened or if the power was off long enough and your bacteria colony died due to lack of oxygen without moving water???


Is it a new ammonia test, are you sure it is right, because for it to rise with no feedings and no ADA aquasoil, what gives, just don't get it:-k


----------



## Shurik

I redid my 10 gal Gold fish, so now it is “new”; this is why it is going crazy, dear Golacreas. I set it up just like my 20 gal ” salad bar”, but they are not acting the same. 

I got TWO different ammonia tests, so there is no error here either. 

Nothing is dead (yet), nothing is rotting, so I just don’t get it myself. 

I mean OK, it is new now, it should spike, but come on now!.. :| It gets up to over 1.0 in one hour and almost 2.5 in a couple of hours after I change the water. And its been going on for past two days? Seems like forever 

Soil is the same. Eco-complete is the same. Plants are in, all those crypts, saggitaria, java ferns, something else, now that “parsley” will go there in one second.
Filter is OK.
The only thing is that 20 gal is OK, and 10 gal IS NOT!:yell: 

I just got some duckweed from a member, he is going to ship it on Monday. Hooray! Thanks, Goalcreas, for pointing out to me at some point "trade and sale" place. 

After I added some extra oxygen, fish look better...


----------



## goalcreas

If you can go down to the LFS and ask them to sell some of their SEASONED bio media.

Get a handful for each tank, put it in a filter bag and put it into your filter.
Instant colony of bacteria.

Just keep it in water like it were fish while you take it home and try to get it from their tank to yours ASAP, under an hour is GREAT, under 1.5 is GOOD, under 2 will work, more then that, forget it.

OH yeah, ORLANDO is a great guy, he will take care of you with the duckweed.


----------



## Shurik

Yes, seasoned bio media would be very helpful; I got to think about where and how I could get it.

And now&#8230; :ninja: my night time Scary Story:

The following is the list of the factors which are causing me to run with a bucket over my head for two nights and days straight by now:

1) New filter
2) New soil with perhaps too much of organic matter
3) Not enough plants
4) Two cold water big common gold fish in 10 gal
5) Not enough oxygen at some point
6) Something else like full moon or something&#8230;

And this is the picture of my 10 gal, sorry for shaky hands and no tripod.










And here ISO is 800 which is causing too much of a grainy "noise" on this picture. Oh well!..
Good night, everybody! [smilie=w: :rapture:

[IMG]http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn132/Shurik_Shurik/aquarium/IMG_3087_biUbe.jpg[/IMG]


----------



## Red_Rose

Shurik said:


> I mean OK, it is new now, it should spike, but come on now!.. :| It gets up to over 1.0 in one hour and almost 2.5 in a couple of hours after I change the water. And its been going on for past two days? Seems like forever


 Your ammonia went past 1.0ppm?! Wow! The highest it ever got up to in both of my tanks was 0.50ppm but after I did the first water change, it stayed around 0.25ppm until the plants finally got around to removing it. My very first bottle test was a completely different story. It went up to 8.0ppm but fortunately, that didn't happen in my tanks.

Great looking 10g!


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## Shurik

Hello, everyone! :mrgreen:

Phew!... Nothing new today, still struggling with 10 gal. For now I totally forgot about nice looking landscape, it is just stuffed with all sorts of plants I could find.

My 20 gal (The Salad bar)is doing just fine, no weird ammonia spikes; everything is very moderate, ammonia never goes past 0.25, just like it always goes. Nice! Some white strings everywhere, but I don’t even care about it right now. 

As of my 10 gal… *censored* :yell: *censored again*!!! :mmph:
I obviously have an invisible dead elephant in there or something. Yes, Rose, ammonia does go up to the moon in there, I just hope it will stop someday! :smow:

Can anybody suggest any good ammonia test, because I am running out of all of them? I have Mardel Strips test (gives you very approximate ideas of what’s going on, the only good thing about it is it is quick) and Red Sea Fresh Lab, which is better, but I don’t know if there are better graded tests then that.

Back to my water change – have to babysit my 10 gal. [smilie=u:
Fish are OK, I think they are recovering. Hopefully they will do well.


----------



## Red_Rose

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that your ammonia goes down for you very soon!  After reading what you're going through with your 10g, I have no right to complain about my small tank!

I find it interesting that you mentioned the white strings in your 20g. When I had first set up my 2.5g, I noticed that there was a lot of white stuff on the plants but after the plants started cleaning up the ammonia, the white stuff went away. :-s

I'm a fan of the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master test kit. It contains test bottles for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and both low and high range pH. It is very accurate and it lasts a long time.  I was told that the test strips are not very accurate. I've never used them myself so I can't say if that's true or not.


----------



## bratyboy2

Im back!!! okay it took me forever to read what i missed! but dang shurik i would be so p-ed off!!! all i can say is where are the updates of the tank? and have you got the design down yet?


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## Shurik

Oooooh, bratyboy2 is BACK! Yes, you did miss a lot of actions.  Nice to see you again! 

No updates on water gardening as of yet, as you can see I am only dreaming about it now. But no, I am not going to give up without a fight, so I keep changing water and I think I am winning the battle!:boxing: 

The ammonia build up is slowing down, oh YES!!! Now it gets up to 0.5 in four-5 hours, and this is NOTHING compare to what it was. 

Dear Rose, I think that 2.5 gallon acting up can be just as frustrating as 10 gallon, on top of that you lost your guppies, and it makes it so much worse. 

Considering the fact that I have two aquariums set up in a very similar way but one of them became such a pain, “El Natural” guide should have some sort of a disclaimer, something like “Personal results may vary”. ound:

I am only happy that I caught that ammonia explosion with your help on time and that I can dedicate so many hours to fight this nonsense. Perhaps the best solution was to throw this absurd away and start everything over, but as I said, I am so damn stubborn and I hate to quit. :fencing:

It is a great thing I have such a free schedule, otherwise I would miss it, and my fish would be dead and… And it would be very sad experience. 

So I am slowly getting back to my algae gardening. Some time this week I’ll get my tool kit so I can trim it! :bounce:

I had very intense weekend indeed...

Bratyboy2, are you really going to start amazon bioptic, for how many gallons?


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## bratyboy2

i down graded i went with a twenty long...just went and got drigt wood it sinking as we speak and it has sand and soil...didnt feel like ripping the tank down when its already tea stained lol


----------



## Shurik

Has anybody seen Led light like this one? 
Is it any good for anything?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230242761321&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013

I was just wondering around, that's all.

I do have led light on 10 gal, it is a great looking thing and it is very bright to the human eye. Yes, it is tiny, doesn't generate any heat and you can program it to change the light cycles, so you have the day light and the moon light, one thing dimming into another. It is very "stage" like impressive light... Except that you can't grow anything under it. :heh:

This is why I moved 10 gal to the window and started all that "natural" set up in the first place. 
Plus I had undergravel filter in it and it didn't help any to my plants, well, hopefully now everything will do better.

Bratyboy2, I am waiting on the picture of your project, you know, I am very visual! hoto:


----------



## goalcreas

LED is supposed to be the lights of the future.
It actually looks alright, for that price, it is almost a MUST buy to find out.
It said 7500k for color temp which is within the good range for plants, however it doesn't graph the peaks so it would be hard to say for sure.


----------



## yum

Shurik said:


> Has anybody seen Led light like this one?
> Is it any good for anything?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230242761321&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
> 
> I was just wondering around, that's all.


wow. thanks for the link. i've been following LED lighting for a while now and would have thought these types of bulbs would be very expensive as i've found that standard bulb replacements are pricey and not very bright.

i can tell you that i've used LED replacement bulbs in my car for a while now and the only downside i've found is that some times the bulbs can fade or strobe. they have a very limited range of light and are very directional.

but these are so cheap i might have to get one to test out! wow!


----------



## Shurik

:retard:I hope one of you got this light to try it out, because I missed it. They are all gone!


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## goalcreas

Nope, that was quick.
Maybe they will be back up again:noidea:


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## Shurik

I see they have moon light too ... Well, this is not as interesting as regular one. I will watch this seller just for heck of it, because I really like my led light. Even though it might not be really good for plants, it might be good to just look at the tank when "off the light hours" without growing so much algae 
And it doesn't take any space or electricity, so you can’t loose really.


----------



## bratyboy2

well i have no pictures just yet. but soon the wood just wont sink!!! ugh. but yah i dont have much to say though sorry led's seem cool im thinking of adding moon lights to the big setup i dont know yet


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## Shurik

I usually boil the wood even though it doesn’t always fit into the boiling pot. But I don’t have such patients to wait for two weeks for it to sink down. So even if you boil like a half of the branch, it would help it to stay at the bottom. No big deal if half of it is sticking out of the pot. Just don’t leave it unattended on the stove, keep an eye on it. Well, at least this is what I did a number of times. Two-three hours – and you are done. Well, maybe four hours, but not two weeks though! 

WARNING: don’t use your roommate or loved one’s favorite kitchenware, usually they don’t appreciate it at all! 

The price for that led light was so low I though it is a part of the unit and I will need something else to go with it. That’s all right, there will be more stuff like that.


----------



## Shurik

OK, I have a question!!! Yes, again! :mrgreen:

Our two gold fish is sitting in 10 gal and they were doing it for quite some time now. They are probably stunted and on top of that the pond they supposed to go to is not ready for them yet. To make the matter worse we got attached to them and last night some crazy idea somehow crawled up on the surface.
What if we get like 50 or 40 gal tank for them, it would fit the top of the dresser in our bedroom just perfect! 
Is it totally stupid? :retard:

I am looking at SeaClear 40 gal 15" L X 36" W X 16" H
And SeaClear 50 gal 15" L X 36" W X 20" H

I like acrylic tanks because they are clear and light. But also I know that some of them can bulge out. My 20 gal doesn’t. 
The difference in 40 and 50 gal is the height and price. I know that surface area is more important for gold fish then amount of gallons, plus I don’t like to dive in 20”. 

What am I facing? Yes, I know it is MTS, but it wasn't my question! 

They don’t need any heater and I could just stuff it with some budget plants and use some light and some filter. Is it possible to pull it of without spending another fortune? I think it is! 

How do people change the water is such a big tanks? If I can do it with 10 gal every 4 hours (like I just did), I don’t exactly see myself doing it with 40 or 50 gal tank! :rofl:

I would appreciate any comments before I do something stupid again! 
You are all such a great help to me! :grouphug:


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## bratyboy2

i think you could pull that all off there shurik...no heater needed and it sounds fine to me.
now does that boiling actually make it sink? im off to try it lol


----------



## Shurik

Heat accelerates the diffusion of molecules, bratyboy2! :kev: 

Those water molecules just move around faster (well, sorta) and this is why the wood gets soaked up a bit sooner. 
Even if you soak up just a half of the branch real well, it might be enough for it to finally stop floating up. 

I am still thinking of 40 or 50 gal… Hmmm!... Which one? :boink:

Oh, I got that Led light for $13, it is back on e-bay. Let’s see what it is.


----------



## Shurik

I accidently ran into this discussion about green water. Sounds easy and natural to me. Has anybody tried anything like that? It kinda makes a lot of sense.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...fighting-green-water-simple-cheap-method.html

Hello? Anybody here?


----------



## Red_Rose

I've heard of people using UV sterilizers to get rid of green water algae. Apparently, it's suppose to work rather well.


----------



## goalcreas

Green water, get a HOT Magnum hang on filter for about $45 at Petsmart (by printing out the online price and having them match, otherwise it is about $85 in the store) and get some DE powder and charge the filter and run it for a day or two and bye bye green water. I have known people that have had to end up using a UV after all, but that filter has worked for me every time.

About the wood, I have heard people that have had success running them in the dish washer.
You need to run a couple cycles empty first to remove any of the soap scum, maybe wipe it down also, then run it with hot water, not the energy saver cycle, the full bore everything cycle and then it will sink.
This is good for pieces that don't fit into your pots.


----------



## Red_Rose

goalcreas said:


> Green water, get a HOT Magnum hang on filter for about $45 at Petsmart (by printing out the online price and having them match, otherwise it is about $85 in the store) and get some DE powder and charge the filter and run it for a day or two and bye bye green water. I have known people that have had to end up using a UV after all, but that filter has worked for me every time.


Will using this powder work for any type of filter or only the one you suggested? If this could work for any type of filter, it would be very convenient for people struggling with green water.


----------



## goalcreas

NO, because the Magnum line uses a micron filter, like miniature pool filters, the ribbed ones you see in Home Depot by the pool section.

You need to keep the powder on the outside of it otherwise the powder ends up in the tank.

One of the things the powder does is it makes the micron filter smaller so it traps all the green water particles
(that is not saying it right scientifically, but you can get the idea).

You can get the powder in huge bags for a few bucks at a pool store.

The best way to charge the filter is to mix the powder in a bucket of water and run the filter in the bucket until it has picked up all the filter, run for about 10 min should be fine.
The quick way is to fill the filter with water most of the way full and spoon in the powder carefully on the outside of the micron filter being very careful to not get it on the inside.

They suggest running it without the powder first to see if that is enough to clear the water.


----------



## Shurik

Thanks for all your input about the GW. I thought the water was “going green” in my 20 gal, but apparently I was seeing things. Any way, it is a good thing to know what you all thought. I guess every method has its own cons and pros. I am trying to read and absorb as much as I can and watch my tanks closely. I hope I get better with what I do. 

I just received huge clump of all kind of stem plants from Orlando. Oh yes, he is such a great guy! He sent me some needle leaf java, Pogo Yatabeanus, R.Indica and of coarse famous duckweed. 
Now both of my tanks are stuffed with all of it and it looks huh… very natural indeed! But as soon as everything gets to more or less stable state of being, I will pull something out of it. 

Bacopa monnieri grew out of the tank over night. Yup, all of a sudden all monnieri stems just reached the surface and I have to trim it. You told me, Goalcreas, that bacopa monnieri is the least of your favorite out of them, but will I ever listen!? 

Got my snails today, all of them are live and well. They are so tiny!

Still thinking of 50 gal (seriously!) Can I run it with two HOB filters? Well, it is probably not the best thing to do. I’ve heard that canister filters are the best, but do I definitely need one for 50 gal? 
Is everyone going to laugh if I put my two gold fish in there? BTW, they say “hi” to Rose. 
I got too many questions; I know I bubble too much. 

But it is really great to have you all here, it really is.


----------



## Red_Rose

Tell them I said hi, Shurik! :wave:

I think others have set up NPT's for goldfish so I can't see why people would laugh at that but then again, I really don't know anything about goldfish!

When you go to set up the 50g, I think you could easily get away with just one HOB. I use the AquaClear 20 on my 10g and I haven't come across any problems from using it. I just recommend that you put a baffle on the outflow so it doesn't cause a lot of surface agitation. :bounce:


----------



## bratyboy2

hey shurik!!! glad to hear you dont have green water!!! i hate that crap.:heh:
so i would get that 50 gallon...goldfish el natural...is been done i have seen it they look great!
im going to boil some wood tonight...(maybe my ex's while im at it lol) but i will let you know what i get from it lol.

im selling some of my10-20 gallons to make room for a 55 so i can do an el natural version of jessie's tank...love that tank!

goal i sent you a pm back.

so shurik whats the next step with the tank? more fish? more plants? moving the plants:boxing:?


----------



## Shurik

Hold on, bratyboy, I am working on the new picture. Give me 5 more min., I have to download it. 
Happy to see you! 

Goalcreas had a great idea of a dishwasher. If you make sure there is no soap left and set it on hot-hot cycle – that would be great. It's too bad i don't have one. This is why I am using Partial boiling. 

The 50 gal is coming!!!


----------



## Shurik

[-o< Oh, that buffle!!!... How brilliant, Rose, thanks so much for the link!!! rayer:

I was thinking of constructing something out of the bottle myself, how funny!... So I wasn't the only one who thought of something like that 

I do have AquaClear and it was splashing too much, this is why I replaced it with Fluval 2. Well, that Fluval is a good thing; it has a very manageable flow and you can change the direction and intensity of it. The only problem is it is big and ugly, just like Goalcreas promised earlier. With black background you can't really see it and plants are covering it. It is totally silent unless you want to take an advantage of "plus" function" - it grasps the air from the surface to the flow. When it does that, it makes quite a choking noise. Well, it is functional.

All right, I should go back to experimenting with the BUFFLE! :mrgreen: My only concern is that I had some ammonia indicator and it was made out of thin plastic (like this bottle material) and one of my goldfish managed to cut himself&#8230; herself&#8230; I should name them! 

That ammonia indicator was totally useless and I removed it, it was a few month ago. I used Melafix to treat the wound and I think it worked. I will have to look at the bottle to see exactly what it was, there are different kinds out there.

So if there was thicker softer material more like a robber&#8230; :???: I understand that for some fish it wouldn't matter, but my guys are totally wild.

So the 50 gal is coming! :mrgreen:The pressure is on! :boxing:

For now I was just watching that ammonia nightmare and stuffing the tanks with the plants, forget the aesthetics!

This is what my 20 gal looks like today. Not exactly for an aquascape contest, but the water parameters are good!


----------



## bratyboy2

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHURIK THE TANK LOOKS GREAT AND YOUR PICTURE ALONE IS GREAT!!!! WOW IM SO JEALOUS!!!


----------



## Shurik

Making the slope&#8230; . I really like slopes! 

I hijacked someone's picture to show you what I was thinking about, I hope I will not get in trouble for doing this.

Does anybody know how to make a slope like this? I am wondering all over the place and can't really find anything about it.

OK, I got to shot up because I am starting to take too much space in here :tape2:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m132/bigben_m/P5210009.jpg


----------



## Shurik

Oh boy… Oh bratyboy! 
I missed your intense respond! 

I hope I will manage to make it look better though, it is still a salad bar 
But... THANKS!


----------



## bratyboy2

shurik it looks just fine!!! that slope is neat in a way. it looks as if they just piled the substrate up in the shape they wanted the ground cover to grow and thats it! why you wantting to slope in this tank?


----------



## helenf

I think that a NPT for goldfish, if they were like my goldfish, would certainly be a challenge.

I have 3 fancy goldies in a heavily planted 30 gallon. The fish are about 3 or 4 inches long at this stage, so not large by goldfish standards. These are the vegetarian piranhas of the fishy world! They eat every plant I put in there, to some degree or other. I am finding, gradually, that I can more or less distract them with really yummy plants while the less yummy plants get established, but I still lose several plants a month to total goldfish destruction (its getting expensive). The problem, from a NPT balance perspective is, that not enough plants get established enough to grow fast before they get eaten by the fish. 

Heres a list of plants my goldfish eat, including several that they are not supposed to like at all:

- hygro
- hygro difformis
- willow hygro
- green temple (another hygro)
- duckweed (of course! - this simply won't survive with a goldfish in the tank, as they love the stuff)
- elodea densa
- java moss
- riccia
- java fern
- anubias
- crypts
- ambulia
- small swords like echnidorus tenellus
- valisneria
... 

I've added CO2 to the tank recently, to help the plants to grow better. I live in hope of getting growth that will outpace the goldfish predation. But I know for a fact that there is no way, in this tank, that I could manage without the heavy filtration it has, because the waste the goldfish produce is huge (remember that they have really simple digestive systems, so they produce a lot of waste for their size, and they are large fish anyway, compared to my others) and if I feed them less they just get more destructive to the plants. 

I'm guessing that to get a NPT working for goldfish, you'd need to have more than double the usual suggested volume of tank. So for my 3 goldfish, maybe 90 or 120 gallons would do it. You'd need to have some very fast growers growing very well before adding the fish in, and you'd need to have a better system than I have to prevent them from uprooting the plants - maybe putting everything in pots would work. You'd also need a very thick layer of gravel, because all goldies like to sift through the substrate looking for food, and it would be a mess if they got through to the soil underneath. 

It would also help if you had goldies that weren't as into plants as mine are. But I have no idea how to find and identify those. 

If you do go for a NPT goldfish tank I'd really like to hear how it works. Would love to be able to try this with mine, sometime. I'm just not sure that it is actually possible...


----------



## Shurik

Dear Helenf! Thank you for your post. 

Your goldies really ARE the vegetarian piranhas and your list of their favorite plants is unbelievably long! 

Mine are not like that at all. Please note they are not fancy, they are plain common "feeder" (?) gold fish.

Actually, they came a long way with eating plants. At first they were eating just about any vegetation I plant, this is right. Hornwort was destroyed momentarily. But then somehow they lost an interest and now they nibble occasionally on something, but no severe destructions. I wonder what happened to it! 
Right now they have fun with the duckweed I just got, but I don’t mind. Other then that – they never touched my java ferns, they don’t care about annubias, cryps don’t look interesting to them at all and some other plants I have right now (I hope I will finally remember all the names right) – they don’t’ really touch them. They do love vallisneria.

Yes, they are messy eaters, but I feed them from my hand. They got used to me and I just hold some food under the water and poof! – they pick it right up. It definitely helps to minimize the amount of food accumulating at the bottom of the tank. I guess if not that – I would have a total dump at the bottom. 

I am definitely going to try 50 gal tank, and it is too bad I don’t think I can go with a bigger one. But I still do have a pond option for them, so if that doesn’t work out for them – they are going to move to the pond. 
Right now I am searching the forum to see other people experiences with similar projects and I see it is definitely a challenge. But this is what makes it so interesting to me! :high5:

I guess I may end up with a pretty ugly mess. 
Let’s see what’s going to happen. 
Where can I see your thread about your Goldfish NPT experience?


----------



## bratyboy2

well i would just post one about them...
i dont remember myself where i found it but if you search google im sure you will find one...okay just looked and nothing lol okay well what fish you adding next?


----------



## goalcreas

First, maybe you thinking you had GREEN water had something to do with the fact it was EARTH DAY and you were thinking GREEN

That slope, I am betting they used some rocks to build the shape and then covered them with the substrate completly so they could plant the ground cover on it.

Man did I miss alot in less then a day

Your tank is looking VERY nice, you should be proud of this work.

As far as your 50 gallon, are you planning a 55 gallon with the 48 x 13 footprint.

There are other sized tanks that might suite you better, the 75 obviously, but there are 60's that are 48 x 18 and just a little shorter. The 48x18 footprint is just sooooooooo much better then the 48 x 13 for many reasons and it opens up a whole lot of options for you.

The 60 gallon is only 18 high so you don't have to go crazy with lighting to get good growth and a nice carpet. I priced them out here in Phoenix and for a LeeMar at the LFS it was like $79, not a bad price at all. The stand and tank take up a little more room, but if you can fit the 48 x 13, I don't see how 5 more inches couldn't be dont, unless it just can't.:mrgreen:


----------



## Shurik

Dear Goalcreas! Yes, I spent my Earth day in a very active manner, as you can see :mrgreen:

I had several major discoveries:

1)	My new tiny snails eat like crazy and cleared up most of the rocks. 
2)	I suppose lack of oxygen may lead to some fungi funky looking clouds and I added an air stone. I have an old half alive Rena pump, the smallest kind, so it is barely there. But that white stuff cleared up a lot in a day. I am pretty sure this is what caused the clouds and this is what cleared it up.
3)	I can't wait till I can pull some crap out of the tank, but for now it is helping me to balance things more or less.
4)	My apartment is soooooo small I can not bring an extra chair in there, so that 50 gal goes on our dresser because&#8230; because I don't have a dish washer! ound:

The new 50 gal tank... (oh, I wish I really could do 48X18, but the maximum depth is 15, not 15.5, not even 15.2, but 15 inches[smilie=e is going to be like this one, which is actually just like my 20 gal and has same proportions, but bigger:

[URL]http://www.happyreward.com/[/URL]

This is just someone's page I hijacked again. Don't tell me it is a lousy tank because I already got it and its being shipped! 

Yes, I was thinking of 75 gal, you are right (just as usual!), and I really like the 48x18 footprint&#8230; 
But then our dresser will have to go&#8230;. Or a book shelve, we have bookshelves everywhere, but what about the books? 
Chris said we could fix some top to the dresser to make it deeper, but it is too late now.

The lights are going to be Hagen 36" with 40w HO T5 X 2 and maybe something else. The window light! Oh, where is my Led I got for $13 bucks, by the way?  I totally forgot about it! I don't have any high hopes for it though.

Here is what my Cylinder look like now, can't take a better picture against the sun, huge branchy palm tree is on the right doesn't let me squeeze any farther :


----------



## goalcreas

Nothing wrong with that tank, it is a nice one.


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## Shurik

Phew!... I am wiping sweat of my forehead! :mrgreen:

As of this Cylinder… I am delighted to get rid of it. All that distortion of vision, small surface area and some other things got really old.


----------



## goalcreas

What will you use for a filter on the 50 gallon?


----------



## Shurik

I don't know what to use for a filter.  I am totally open to any suggestions. And I better listen to what you say. I do have that AquaClear 50 though; I don't know if it is good enough, it depends&#8230;

Speaking of Led light for 13 bucks. Just got it. Well, I know, I volunteered! :mrgreen:

The following is my report on it, to the best of my abilities:

Well, it is not as flimsy I thought and it is not crap. It is ~ OK. I don't know if you can grow anything under it as is. No, you can't. I don't think it is as bright as 100w, but it depends where. The bulbs itself are really bright, but the light doesn't travel too far from it and it is directional yet somehow goes everywhere else, espetially in your eyes. I know, it is very strange description. But to use it alone for the aquarium you need like ten of these and some reflector. Well, it definitely needs something.

When on, it does look like a glowing sword from Star Wars, I don't remember if that weapon had a name. It's really hard to take a picture of it because yes it is blinding bright. So my pictures are very approximate, but will give you some idea. 
I would use it under a kitchen cabinet or to light some other things but the aquarium. Or use it just to look at the tank "off the lighting hours". Or&#8230;

It is still cheap and so far it works. I don't know what I can use it for, perhaps I need a second one like that for Star Wars fights!

The conclusion:

This light is just like you described it, dear Goalcreas, way before I got it. :heh:

The aquarium with this thing on top of it:










The approx. close up on it:










The Led is ON! :fencing:


----------



## goalcreas

If I were you and if you can, I would go Canister filter on this for sure.
There is a guy on e-bay selling Fluval 304's for 75 shipped and 404's for 85 shipped.
They are older models, but they are brand new, I have some 204's and they work just fine.
Otherwise you can get an Eheim Ecco for about $95 (the biggest ECCO) on petsmart.com with free ship, but you pay tax. The Ecco comes with really nice filter media and you might have to get some more to add to the Fluval's so that would probably make them about the same price.
I can PM you the e-bay link if you like.


----------



## bratyboy2

wow i love the lil cylinder you can ship it to me!!! lol i got just the spot. next to a window for my betta. 

the led is very long.:heh:
but it does an okay job i would say
im telling you the tank is coming along very nice....what kinda light is that again?


----------



## Shurik

Which light? The one I am using is Hagen GLo.
This Led one is on e-bay, the link to it is some place on this thread, but I talk too much, so the link drowned several pages ago. :heh:
Bratyboy, I really don’t know about this Led light, I would say don’t get it unless you got something very shallow to light up, like 8” deep. :mrgreen:


----------



## bratyboy2

is the light like a CF or VHO or what? im getting ideas for the 55...i want good light but im tired of the tannin color from the soil and the light clashing...im thinking big water change.

yeah i really think the 55 will go with out a LED...maybe one of the plug in spot lights though would be cool


----------



## Shurik

Yes, but the problem with this light is that it doesn't give that SPOT light, oh well, to make this long story short, this light is for whatever else but aquariums!


----------



## bratyboy2

hmmmmmmmm...........maybe i wont get one then...well its off to get ready for work got to go to the pet store and clean algae ew i hate it so much i dont have any here but its like im being punished for having clean tanks!!!! toodles!


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## bratyboy2

so shurik any news for us?


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## Shurik

Nothing yet, nothing yet, everything is 
very quiet. 
But I miss the actions and
my 50 gal is on it's way and I got a ton things to do about it, prepare myself, plan, work out in case if I have to change the water like every few hours and lift those buckets all the time... :mrgreen:

I don't know exactly what its going to be look like, but will see 
Did you get your woods ready yet?


----------



## goalcreas

Shurik said:


> Yes, but the problem with this light is that it doesn't give that SPOT light, oh well, to make this long story short, this light is for whatever else but aquariums!


I thought this was your battle sword.:laser:
ound:
:rofl:
ound:


----------



## Shurik

Well yes. It was my personal secret weapon, but now everyone knows about it! :spy:


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## Shurik

I am trying to find some material on how to build the slopes and avoid/minimize issues with anaerobic pockets.
Did anyone see anything to read about it? Any tips? 
Goalcreaaaaaaas! :mrgreen: Heeeeeeeeeelp! :mrgreen:
Anybodyyyyy!!!


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## bratyboy2

well just build up that rock and put the substrate on top. lol :mrgreen:

what are your plans for the rank so far?


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## goalcreas

If you want to avoid anaerobic spots then add flow to the tank, get a mini power head and direct it to flow in any area's that seem still.


----------



## Shurik

Oh, Hello! 
Considering I am going to get Fluval 404 (oh yes  ), should I get the spray bar? Do they help?


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## goalcreas

They can, but you might get the right flow w/o.
Try it, if you think it will help, if it seems to need more spread out flow, then you can add it, but I am not sure you will need to.


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## Shurik

Water circulation&#8230; Actually I don't understand how that water circulation supposed to help with the issue of methane and hydrogen sulfide gas generation *in the soil*, if I build it up too much or compress it with too many rocks. :retard:
I was building up *the slope *(in my mind so far, in theory)! :mrgreen:


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## goalcreas

You know what, you are right, I forget this is an NPT thread sometimes.
I don't know WTF I am talking about for once
Actually for the 10billionth time, but I just forget the whole potting soil thing once in a while.
It is up to you experimenting here or going to the GURU for advice on this one.


----------



## Shurik

Guru??? 
OK, where do I go from here then? :retard:
I still do want to use the soil because I like the result I get. But I still wanted to make some slopes…


----------



## Shurik

Fine! :mrgreen:

I am going to do it all by myself! (“All by myself” song is playing :-({|=:violin::horn: )

If I use let’s say inert material like ceramic pots and fill it up with gravel only, I probably can use them as a separator. That way I will have some area with the soil underneath and some areas to build something like a mountain. The mountains will sit on top of area without the soil, on gravel only. 
Maybe…


----------



## goalcreas

you could use some schultz aquatic soil, like $7 a bag at home depot, and use it to build the slopes, then put a little top layer of the soil on it.
the Schultz is similar to SMS or Flourite even, and has high CEC which means the water runs thru it and it doesn't get the dead spots. It might work really well?


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## bratyboy2

i love the shult's soil...its great stuff. 
me and my friend did it all in his 75 with amazing results...i like it to in my tanks its a great and cheap alternitive.

im interested to see this slope thing come along...post a play by play pic slide for us


----------



## Hubert

With the slope and avoiding anaerobic soil pockets have a look at my one http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/48757-walstad-nano-iwagumi-2.html

It's still very much a work in progress, so who knows whether it will work or not! But it sounds like you've had the same idea as me.


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## Shurik

Hmm!.. Hubert does have similar idea about those Pockets. 
Pockets... Oh, those pockets don't let me fall asleep! :mrgreen:

I was living without my computer for two days, and now trying to catch up on everything I missed. 

Hello, everyone!


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## bratyboy2

i wondered where you had gone!!!! any updates for us shurik? new pics i like them!!! lol:mrgreen:


----------



## Shurik

Hello! I missed you all! 

Somehow I ended up having no time for any updates.

The most frustrating aquarium news for right now is that I wanted to get all the danios out and replace them with glo light neons, but I couldn’t catch all the danios no matter what I did. :yell:
I got only 6 of them out. And two of them are obviously going to stay there forever.
As a result, now I have 6 new neons and 2 old danios, they just don’t want to get out of there. 

Yea, I can’t get off the path to stupidity, can I?:-x


----------



## bratyboy2

shurik 
thats an easy fix!!! turn the lights off before bed give them an hour after to go to sleep, then go catch them!!! they will never know what got them!
i just did this with about 20 some odd fish the other day. only lost 2 because i crammed them in a bag...that was my fault  i feel bad though.

I GOT THE TEN SETUP AND PLANTED!!!
neaons are going in right now!


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## GlitcH

shurik, just make a trap...they work great.


----------



## Shurik

Oh, bratyboy2, I am so happy to see you! 

I knew you know the trick. You should be “on call” in such cases like this, just like an emergency service and charge a fortune. I am actually ready to pay for “danio control”. 

But… I tried the light, damn it, and this is how I got those 6 danios. The remaining two are something else!.. They sleep in places I can’t get to them.  I guess I have to live with them. 
What do you think about 6 glow lights tetras and two danios together in one tank? 

Any way, where can I see your 10 gal?


----------



## yum

this has to be the most popular thread right now. 

it may be nice to have the regular guys in there for contrast so the others look brighter in comparison.

now add some shimp!


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## bratyboy2

well you could always try it again...they might end up at the top again. lol
hell i should be on call i will give my cell number out to anyone that might need me just PM me lol no joke i think it would be fun to talk to people when i wanted to or when they wanted to from here...hell shurik we would be on the phone all the time!!
the ten log has not started just yet. i dont know if im going to do one it might be a surprise oneday and you will see it when its perfect!
the glow lights? or i saw also neons somewhere in your words...either way i think they will look nice in there.


----------



## Shurik

OOOOh!!!! 
Sorry, I was cleaning the carpet, and now I am back, hello, everybody! 

Too bad here is no audio so I can do a little evil laugh planning to catch my danio, I love this trap idea! Thanks a lot, I am definitely trying it!! :heh: Even better - bratyboy2 on call with the trap like a ghost buster! (Fish buster in this case). 

Yeah, I don’t know if our conversation stands out exactly like World’s Greatest Championship's Professional Fish Keepers and Aqua Designers Associations… ound:
Not quite YET!


----------



## bratyboy2

lets get a pic of the tank already lol

im going to come up with my super hero name...Sharkbait!!! lol ta ta ta ta!!! sharkbait


----------



## Shurik

Hello, everyone. 


I finally managed to take a picture of my salad bar today. This is what I have two weeks later after the last pics taken. 
Yes, it can use some improvement, so to speak.
But now I have a better idea of what plants usually do - they grow! :mrgreen:

My biggest surprise is LIMNOPHILA AROMATICA. I got it as a "bonus" with anubias. I looked at this plant description and though "no way, it is going to melt in two minutes!"
But it is doing OK, growing and even got some color. It is not purple, but it is not totally green and I like the way it looks.

On the left side in the back next to Wisteria is my gorgeous Fluval 2 filter in its full glory, taking up too much space, and I think it's got to go.

HEMIANTHUS MICRANTHEMOIDES is slowly spreading in the carpeting way on the right.
So as POGOSTEMON HELFERI stopped melting. 
So as this tiny HC on the rocks, it will take about 100 years for it to spread this way, but now I see that all three "carpeting" plants are possible. All I need to do is just to choose one.

The conclusion: all the plants I got in there are possible to grow under conditions I have, all I need to do is to loose half of them, because it looks like a total mess! Yes, that's right, this is random pile of stuff, just like a junk yard. Yea, I need to do something with all that

Since I am on the verge of setting up my 50 gal, this makes it possible.

I hope everyone is well. It's been awfully quiet in here lately.
Miss you all.



Cheers!


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

Congratulations you're tank looks fantastic. I'm glad everything is growing for you! The L. Aromatica grows nuts once it gets established, it's definetly getting there. My downio melted for a while until it established, its finally growing nicely. I love the combinations of rock, driftwood, substrates giving great color,texture. Watch out that the floaters don't starve some of your plants of light. I've been using floaters to reduce GDA on my shrimp tank that has far too much light. Again congrats! :clap2: :clap2:
Hope you found room for all those Anubias Petite Nana.


----------



## Shurik

Hi Jeff, its nice to see you! Thank you! 

Your anubias are doing just fine and growing in a separate bucket, they all will go into 50 gal. I gave some to my friends, but I still have plenty. I am happy I got all your plants, they all do well. 
Yes, those floaters are moving out as soon as I see that everything is a little more stable. They do create quite a shadow. I do have some hair looking cloudy greenish algae and… I got to do something with this crazy plant “arrangement”, really!
But at least for now I can watch so many different plants growing and get a better idea of it. 

Any updates on your tanks?


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

I have sold all my plants in the main 20g but left the 5g shrimp tank alone. The 20g had become a Iwagumi, I'm waiting for the Fissedens, HC, Liverworts, moss's, ect.. to grow in a bit before taking any pics. :-D

I'm trying to simplify my 20g tank as I'm starting up my 55g reef which probably will take most of my time now. I know that Iwagumi's are supposed to be harder. I just couldn't keep UP with all the trimming of all the plants to make it look good. So in the Iwagumi its gonna be all short plants, moss's and a field of HC, with some towering Rock mountains. Hope it comes out the way I want it to.


----------



## Shurik

Yea, I can use some simplicity in my jungles for sure! :mrgreen:

But because I don’t have CO2, high light and all the “steroids”, I don’t have to trim it every five minutes, which is a good thing for my life.

I thought reef tanks where next to impossible to have, at least this is what I’ve decided for myself. 
I really want to see your mountains and how all that thing will go. You should definitely take some pictures of it, can’t wait to see it!


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

I'll definetly have something up very soon. Yeah I've gone through multiple scapes and this will hopefully be the last for a long time. It seems the reef bug has bit me. And with anything you start slowly and read, and read, read, read. And dump a boat load of money into it. There's actually a huge club in boston (http://www.bostonreefers.org) they have so much information. I picked up a 55g a year ago and I've been building the system up since then. (lots of money and equipment) It's a huge challenge, but I'm loving every aspect. (electrician, plumber, woodworking, painting, acrylic work,ect..) I can't wait to get everything running. Other peoples tank drive me to keep going when I feel the work is never ending. Check out this for inspiration... TOTM from reefcentral.com tell me that's not the coolest thing you've seen.
check this link for in-depth tank description, and amazing photos
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-05/totm/index.php


----------



## The old man

Very nice tank and I enjoyed the 19 pages of reading about how you got to it.
Seems like a long and enjoyable journey.


----------



## bratyboy2

SHURIK!!!!!
dont you dare mess witht that tank!
its gorgeous!!!!

i have waited for this pic for so long and wow im so happy to see the amzing improvement.

the ground cover thats growing so well thats great...i would go with the downi for sure stuff will take off quicker and then you can propagate them for the 50-gallon.

i really do like everything i hope you just let it go!!!:-D


----------



## Shurik

I can’t believe someone actually read the whole 19 pages of this struggle of a newbie. Thank you, The Old Man, for such a nice note. I really appreciate your appearance and support! 

The ground cover… I thought of donow… downi… donowi ? For some reason I can remember only POGOSTEMON HELFERI name. :mrgreen: it is because it is really late at night I guess!

I really want to see how it goes. It stopped melting but not really propagating and perhaps all I need to do is just like you say – wait without messing it up.
It does look better now, but it is far away from what I wanted. 
As I said, right side is a total mess, ground cover consists of all possible covers and Fluval Filter is starting to irritate me with its enormous size on the left. 
But let’s see, I will get really busy with 50 gal next week, it will take all my attention, and this is a good thing!

Oh, speaking of filters… I really love Eheim Pro 2026 I got for 50 gal. It is running on this 20 gal right now just to get it going. 
I was thinking of a canister filter for this 20 gal. as well.
What size of Eheim Ecco would be right? Or should I think of something else? I really like Eheim though. Oh yea, oh yea!


----------



## bratyboy2

shurik you are a true dork lol 

that 50 gallon is going to take some time indeed.

are you ordering in some plants for the tank now or are you going to wait till the last moment?


----------



## Shurik

Imagine I already got some plants, I am going to use all those plants from my 10 gal because I know for sure my fish doesn’t like it (remember, they are your favorite kind – common goldfish).:rofl:
Plus I got some annubias petite, and something else and… I don’t know what plants I should use! 

My 50 gal is 20” tall, that along creates some problem with lights already. My fish eats the plants. My aquarium stand is not here yet, my Manzanita wood is missing in action and I my lava rocks are missing just as well. 

BTW, what black lava rocks do to the water parameters? Yes, I am natural born dork , so I need to know that! 
See, I am not ready at all yet.

Have you heard of aquariumplants.com? They proudly claim they grow plants only submersed way. Well, they do have a picture of their facility; it does look like they do.


----------



## bratyboy2

well its a start with the ten gallon plants. but what are they again? lol
the petite should be nice. depending how you do it.
um...plants... i must check out the website and i have heard of them before so...but i will rack up some ideas for you girl!

what about fish....now this time i think you should really think about this befor you impulse buy again lol this is a bigger tank and you dont want to have chase more danios in the tank lol

im a big fan of the diamond tetras. they are pretty in a really dense tank and i think thats what you shall get!!!

off to the site!


----------



## The old man

About all my plants came from AquariumPlants.com. Ordered on a wednesday, shipped on thursday and had on friday. Excellent plants and very good service. All all doing well after one month.
Even the anubias are beginning to bloom.


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## goalcreas

bratyboy2 said:


> SHURIK!!!!!
> dont you dare mess witht that tank!
> its gorgeous!!!!
> D


Brad is right, it looks GREAT and the Downoi is really filling in like I told you it would

Keep up the great work, it is turning out AWESOME


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## bratyboy2

ha ha me and goal , your biggest supporters say leave it!!
going to disapoint us now? lol


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## Shurik

Hello, everyone! 

Thank you, Old Man for your feed back about Aquarium Plants store, its nice to know that this place is fine.

Not much news here with me though, busy with collecting everything for 50 gal. I had no clue how much time I can spend doing it, it seems like I need an extra 20 hours a day to catch up on everything I wanted to do. My mailbox is full of unanswered letters and I can't get to it for one reason or another. Aghrrrr!...

Everything is OK with 20 gal, everything is changing and sometimes overnight. Like Limnophila Aromatica (thanks again to Jeff!) It gets seriously pink by the second. This picture doesn't even have that purplish hue it's got. This photo came out with too much of yellow, I just noticed it, yuck! Any way:










*One bad news:*
*One glow light tetra has one gill red and swollen. 
Should I take it out and treat it with something? Or should I just hope it will go away? From my experience with fish nothing goes away on its own.*


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## bratyboy2

well shurik i want to say i hate you...i want that plant and cant get mine to purk up in my tank but im adding more light soon like with in a couple of days.

the fish is just doomed sorry we get them all the time in the store and they are dead the next day. so but hey best wishes?

i want some clippings of that plant when it gets out of hand lol i will get you some starts of the plants i have lol if i have any at the time lol but hey keep us up to date peace!


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## Jeff.:P:.

Very well done Shurik! Looks like its growing very well. When this plant is supplemented by balanced fertz it becomes a vibrant green, which is how I had it in my 20g. When you decrease nitrates it becomes purple and red. I believe its mislabeled as a difficult plant, the only requirement I see it needs is high light and iron. I grow it in a shrimp tank with no fertz, no co2, just high intense light and it grows like a magenta red weed. Excellent Job again Shurik your tank is coming together.


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## V.PooH

It's really beautiful! You choose hardest way to start your first project-top soil for substrat, and you done it very well! I really enjoy to reading all your chronicle! I love your plants look like!


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## Shurik

WOW! It’s so nice to see people actually like my wild creation! Thanks! 

Goalcreas is just like fortune teller for me, he always predicts what’s going to happen. And my ignorance is truly a blessing because I get so many surprises from my tanks; it is very entertaining to watch the progress. So far I see only good things, but I am getting concerned about what’s going to happen when all my soil will wear out or rot, or turn into H2 SO4 :mrgreen:, hehehe, you never know!

I just looked at my last picture update and it is nothing what the tank looks like now. It is definitely due to some trimming and thinning, but I am waiting for my 50 gal to launch. I am facing constant delay and my technical difficulties are very annoying. 

Now my lava rocks are "missing in action".  I ordered them from one member of this forum and never got them. Sounds like they got lost in the mail. He is going to mail another box, as he said, and I will have to WAIT again, stumbling over all my wood and trays with the soil and some plants. Worst of all, I am not the only one here doing it, and making my BF all upset about it is the last thing I want. I hope those rocks will get here ASAP, becasue it's been a month of this stumbling. :yell:

Those rocks are the last thing I am missing, everything else is here… well, the minimum of what I need. 

Phew!... 

Bratyboy2, my glow light tetras are still doing OK, all 6 of them. One of them does have that gill problem, (I found out there is really no ultimate treatment for that), but the rest of them didn’t get it. I’m a frequent water changing freak, so perhaps that helps to keep the water quality OK. 

All right, I want to see what’s happening on the forum, I am missing a lot. But this forum is my main source of information and nothing would be done without everyone’s help.


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## orlando

I have to say old friend your tank looks great! Im so happy for you and how well you executed this tank.
It truly is beautiful

~Orlando


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## davemonkey

Hey Shurik, I just checked out your newer tank pics. Looks fabulous!


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## goalcreas

OH man, all the traveling :faint:, I missed like 10 pages on this thread:sorry:

I have some reading to do, if I get some time before I :bolt: back to So Cal on Monday morning.

But have the AAPE meeting and the wife's B-day tomorrow.
Isn't she great, she let the AAPE meeting / party double as her B-day party.:cheer2:
What a prize she is.:first:

Anyway. will read up and comment later, :sorry: I don't have anything else to say now


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## bratyboy2

well shurik i would love to see the tank a mess!!! lol well i hope those stupid rocks get there soon.
i know the other fish wont get it. i could be some inflamation or maybe a parasite but let it go and it should run the course.

do you have any drawings of the tanks scape?


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## Shurik

Hello, everyone! 

Bratyboy2, you are just so full of love, my dear! :croc: Oh, by the way, where is your 10 gal pics? 

Poor Goalcreas is going through some very major packing and moving, I can surely relate to that, ewww!.. It is so brain scattering to move to another city! So MOnday is The Day! Ouch! 
Let it be the smoothest move ever! 

I love Orlando’s wording – “executed this tank”. :mrgreen: Exactly, this tank is going to be even more executed, it needs it. I can’t get up off my couch now, and tomorrow is a busy day, but I will take some pictures of it because it is changing a lot. 

Yea, the tank is a mess now, but as I said, now I am waiting for those STUPID rocks to get here, this is why all the development just stopped. 

I need to see those rocks, because I was planning something up my head, but then the wood came, it looks really great, but nothing like I expected. It looks even better though. 

Same for rocks, I really need to see them :yell: because I can’t really plan anything. I do have some ideas though, but for some reason they are very vague. Oh, I don’t know what to do with 50 gal, considering the fact that my fish eats plants! They are moving in with their own “furniture”, those plants they live with right now. Some crypts, mayaca (thanks to Orlando!!!) and some other stem plants. I don’t have much though, I need more needle leaf ferns and some grass looking crypts I think. I got only three of those, I wish I knew their name. 

So I got to do some planning, searching and reading. 

What else…  I forgot what else I was going to say!


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## bratyboy2

lol shurik you kill me! your just oh so spunky when you get on here you make me laugh.
i think the crypt your talking about is balansae? or is it the spirilas? or however you spell that! look at the time jesus! lol
well im getting pumped for this 55-50? ugh

the ten gallon is not getting published untill i get the new lighting on so they tank might be filled in before i get that done lol 

i like it but im not in love with it though!!!

i just want to do my rainbow tank already but i cant find a cheap 55!!!!!
okay im off so...


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## foofooree

wow, i like it.... a LOT!


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## yum

wow. it's been a while since i popped my head in here but the tank is looking great! nice colors and good mix of textures. good stuff!


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## Shurik

Two weeks later, anothre pic


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## foofooree

man that looks great, im envious


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## goalcreas

OH man Shurik, you are a real pro now:cheer2:
That is looking GREAT.
you Downoi carpet is AWESOME like I said it would be.
Glad you didn't listen to BRATBOY not aren't you.
Sorry Brad, but :boxing:

Ha Ha, :lol:
It is all good, just a little friendly :fencing: Brad.

:hail: to Shurik, your tank is amazing, such contrast in colors and the lush growth, I :clap2: you.
Back when this thread started you were all like  and now you just sit back with your 
BAD tank and BAD self and are all like eace:

Good job, can't wait to see the 50 gallon now.


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## yum

nice colors indeed!


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## bratyboy2

im so lost what did she not listen to me about? lol well i love the tank and it has made me keep my 20 gallon high now so i can strive to make one hell of a scape. thanks shurik!!!


goal>>>>im going to get you!:axe:

:tea:

but shurik :first: for suffering, designing , and :jaw: of a tank.

:icon_hang:yield::ballchain....thanks now shurik i cant get rid of all my tanks!!

lol:mrgreen:


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## Shurik

Dear friends!


Its' so nice to see you visiting my thread and helping me out so much! Thank you all! rayer:
And wow, I even got the whole bunch of complements on my Salad Bar Central. It still looks like a mess to me though.

But any way, I learned a lot and I would never accomplish anything without you all. :cheer2:
I still can't take a decent picture of it, it comes out overexposed and underexposed at the same time and&#8230; Oh well. Now it is sitting there and waiting for my 50 gal to be set up so it can be trimmed.

Speaking of 50 gal&#8230;

I do have ONE HUGE QUESTION, and perhaps I should post it in "general questions" so more people will se it. (In theory). For now I leave it here (too scared to go out of my little thread) 

I got those lava rocks I was waiting for from someone in Nevada. I think Goalcreas can help me with it because I ran into his post where he said he did get lava rocks from that same source.

Full of glory I arranged my rocks in empty aquarium and decided to crush one to make some smaller stones.
So I did and oops! Inside that that rock made of&#8230; lime? [smilie=u:
It is porous, soft, off-white when dry, "limish" looking (!!!) substance and I don't know what to do about it. I believe all of my rocks I got are like that.

I did vinegar test (I know the acid should be stronger then just a vinegar for a better test, but I did it anyway). It was sizzling. Oh great! 
But because it is porous, it is "sizzling" with regular water just as well. :heh:

I put them in the 5 gal bucket over night. PH stayed the same. At least this is what my test showed. 
Can you please take a look at it because I am no lava expert (and no expert at all), IS IT NORMAL? 
I can think of throwing out these rocks after I was waiting for them for almost a month (first package disappeared in the mail).

Here it is, this is the one I crushed in half:

[IMG]http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn132/Shurik_Shurik/aquarium/lavarock1.jpg[/IMG]


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## goalcreas

Brad, you told her to take the Downoi out right after she planted it.
Now it looks greatrayer: don't you feel a little tarded out now:retard::der: :retard:

Unless:noidea: maybe I am wrong and it was not you or was a different thread  or even
a different forum :der: who knows, maybe I better :bolt: into the :toimonst: and hide for a while :lol:

I would say :sorry: but it is much more fun to :fencing: and then after we are done :boxing:, we can:grouphug: and :tea: and artyman: and toss back a few :drinkers: and forget all about it right?eace:

*OK off the rant.*

Rocks should be fine, I have some like it, but have not been able to use them yet because of the move of course.

But I know Roy Deki is using some and loving them, so I think you are safe :thumbup:


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## orlando

Wow, the tank looks amazing
It is very pleasing to the eye and I love the color contrast between all the species of plants you have.
The rock looks great, it does not look like you smashed it in half, but rather sliced it with a laser. Well done.
The rock will be fine, I have some of it with no ill affects. Thanks for sharing your picture's.
It realy is one of the nicest tanks Ive seen with the use of your foreground plants. Awesome!


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## bratyboy2

to be honest i have no clue what i have said:rofl:

they will be fine. i thought they would help my salttank when i had it but they did little to affect the pH.:faint:

I put the plant sale list up go check it out shurik!!!! get some plants before they are all gone!:ranger:


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## Shurik

Phewww!...

I just finished (roughly) setting up my 50 gal. Oh brother, my 20 gal seems like a joke to me now, never mind my 10 gal! :faint:

Honestly, I thought I will never finish it, it felt like the tank is in size of infinity. 

While Goalcreas and Bratty where debating about downoi, ound: I quit cutting lava rocks with lasers, side of my palm and my teeth and looking at it through the microscope and went on and on and on planting, filling, scaping, rescaping, swearing, laughing and talking to myself.:crazy:

I am still exhausted but totally happy it is over at this point. Should I start new thread for the 50 gal or should I keep piling up things over here? 

I’ve missed a ton of things while out!!! Ouch!...:jaw:


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## bratyboy2

lol you kill me girl
just keep it goig here this is your home now


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## Shurik

Oh HELLO, friends! 

I haven’t visited my own thread for ages – been busy with the tanks. New pictures are NOT ready yet, but I will try to post some comprehensive update. 

One great news – I finally graduated from Fluval internal filter to Eheim Classic 2215. Oh, that feels almost like graduating from college! What a relieve! :mrgreen:

Yea, I know, dear Goalcreas told me in the beginning that eventually I will hate that internal thing. So I did! And I got rid of it, YESSSSS!!!! It’s GONE!!! Gone with the wind! \\/

OK, I got to go back and finish at least something for today! It feels like nothing ever gets done. 

Hugs and kisses to everyone.


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## Tex Gal

What a wonderful place your tank has ended up in. I think "as good as it gets" is pretty great! I love your downoi. I'm finally getting it to grow in a coup of my tanks, at least so far.... Your tank really looks great! Hats off!!


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## bratyboy2

hey shurik!!! just stoppin in to say hey and check the post....


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## The old man

Wow, you've come a long way. Glad to see your 50 gallon is doing so well. Where did you get your Hagan T-5 fixtures. I'm looking for something for a 50 gallon tank.


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## Shurik

Oh, nice to see you, The Good Old Man! 

I got my Hagen Glow lights on e-bay a while ago. I can't say how much it was because I totally forgot the price I paid, (I bout waaaay too many things at that point) but it was very reasonable and I liked the quality and this is why I got them in the first place. :mrgreen: The price was fluctuating a lot.

After I bout my first unit, I liked it  and got another two of different sizes.

Actually the whole light question was frustrating and it was difficult to decide what I am doing. But I am very happy with my lights for now.

You see, I don't have any of those CO2 fancy-shmancy things,  for now all my tanks are very "old fashion". (Except for lights)

Here is the thread about these particular lights with my pictures of the units, I participated in the discussion! :mrgreen:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/.../51067-hagen-glo-t5-ho-lighting-system-3.html

How is everything with your tanks, where do I go to see them? I always get lost in here!

Yes, Bratyboy, you definitely should stick around!


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## Shurik

OK, here is my 50 gal! 
Please take a look!

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/52274-hagrid-s-woods-50-gal-tall.html


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## Revernance

Shurik said:


> Two weeks later, anothre pic


Ok, um WOW.

WOW. I don't know what to say!


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## kakkoii

I cant see the pics


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## orlando

Awesome. Really Awesome


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## goalcreas

Looking mighty fine


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## Robert Henry

That is one amazing tank. Great color and layout. I wish I had half your talent!


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## Shurik

Oooooo-hello-hello-hello, everybody!!! 
I was so busy I totally let everything go, including my own thread! 

Thanks for all the nice words, guys/girls 

I have to say, this tank turned into such a messy jungles! I got to post some new pictures, it looks really wild now. Everything is growing great and it needs some major trim. Actually, this is all I do – trim it all the time. Also this tank is a great learning tool for me. It's got some hair algae and I don't really do anything about it, even though I probably should. Also I see what I should change in the hardscape, but… But now I have to live with this one. 
Plus I was so busy with my 50 gal I kinda forgot about this tanks 

I was out of this forum for a while so now I have to go and see what’s new, I am missing too much!

Cheers!


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## bratyboy2

cant wait to see shurik!


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## Shurik

All right, and now&#8230;&#8230; 
Every time I skip water change (and I skipped a few), my L. Aromatica turns green. I use it as an indicator. 
Yes, it needs to be trimmed severely. Also I kinda got tired of this layout, but now I just have to live with it. Plants are growing, fish are happy. 
Fauna - still the same original two longfinned leopard danios and 6 glow light tetra. Plus tons of snails. 
Yes, simply put, this tank is due to some changes, uke: I just don't know what I should do. Just trim?


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## Tex Gal

So nice. What about adding some reds on the right R. colorata or Ludwigia arcuata, or Didiplis diandra? Can't remember, do you have enough light for them. It would be a nice balance to your L aromatica and a small little change!


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## bratyboy2

oh shurik please send me some cuttings and starts!!! i want this tank its amazing!


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## mynameisjonah

your tank is beautiful! now did you end up dosing any ferts in the end? to get such lush growth?


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## goalcreas

The L Aromatica likes to go red when the nitrates are low.
When you skip water changes the nitrate builds and it goes GREEN.

Still a beauty of a plant when green, but it sure gives this tank color, so keep with the water changes and let her go back to red

Oh and Hi again, pretty settled into the new place, head is back above water


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## dawntwister

Fantastic first try!!!! Is this your first planted tank?


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## bratyboy2

hows the tank?


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## Shurik

bratyboy2 said:


> hows the tank?


Hello, everyone! 

Hmmm, let me see  ... I don't even know what to say about this tank any more. 

Considering I was forgetting about this tank for a month or two and it was sitting totally unattended with no lights or water change, the tank is doing great! Actually, I was not forgetting about it, of coarse, but being at school for so many hours a day and all was not too beneficial for any of it.

It is going to be two years old tank in a couple of month, so I definitely should take some pics and think about what I've learned, so at least it would be some sort of an example of what I did right and what I did wrong for those who dare! ound:

Basically, I am very happy I went with El Naturel, especially because of my schedule and you know how it goes, today you can spend some time on it, and then... next thing you know - you can NOT 
And in such case it is a perfect thing to have - El Naturel. This is why all of my 3 tanks in fact are still OK. 
But I would love to add some lights and CO2, still dreaming of it, just to see how it would work out, and perhaps I will soon. But every time I open some materials about CO2, I get so overwhelmed and confused with types of regulators and such high prices, I just give up 

Cheers!


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## tiffc

> But every time I open some materials about CO2, I get so overwhelmed and confused with types of regulators and such high prices, I just give up


I feel the same way about CO2! It looks way too technical for me, and I prefer not to be running around in circles because I'm confused LOL! Dealing with a 20gal that's only a few months old and a quarantine tank with Columnaris bacteria (I'm fighting it I think!) is enough right now! Once I get out of this apartment in to a house...look out, here's comes the big tank!!!! I think I will pick up Diana's book and do an El Natural.

p.s. I have 5 danios (the only fish so far) in my 20 gallon long tank, and I love them  I wish I had half their energy!


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## bratyboy2

shurik where are thes pics?!?!?! and you need to call or text me!!!


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## 954baby

I like your tank. Lots of green.


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## Angie

New Pictures?


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## Shurik

Angie said:


> New Pictures?


Coming! Had to trim it, it turned into complete jungles.  
I do have some problems with my new Windows 7, my Canon editing software won't work with it very well. Actually, not at all. I tried reinstalling it - nope.  I guess, I just post it "as is", I can't fight with this Canon thing any more. 
If someone knows some downloads on line, not too fancy ones, I would appreciate this info. :clap2:


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## Shurik

Here it is, as promised. 
Sorry for such a lousy pictures, but for now it is "as good as it gets". 
I removed huge rock on the left and trimmed rotala on that side too. It was shading everything else and turned into real jungles. I had to replant its tops, and tossed out the bottoms. Plants were almost up to the water level, just like on the right side right now. I will trim it too.

Generally, I am really sick of this layout with path in the middle uke: and it is overdue to rescape.

Thank you for looking and helping me out with my tanks!


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## Angie

Impressive. Love the look. But then again I am fond of jungle tanks.


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## svenhipsta

what a stunner. great aesthetics.


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## apc789

tiffc said:


> I feel the same way about CO2! It looks way too technical for me, and I prefer not to be running around in circles because I'm confused LOL!


I used to feel the exact same way! Believe me. Once you actually get your hands on the stuff and have the hardware infront of you, it becomes a lot easier. I just set up my first pressurized system for the first time about 3 months ago with the help of a video found on the GLA blog section.

Don't be scuuuuuuuuured. LOL


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## Shurik

Absolutely right,* tigerbarb420*! I did see the *Green Leaf video, thanks to Orlando*, and it did make it look way much easier. I would highly recommend to see it once, it helps to visualize the whole thing and make all those confusing terms sounds simple. I am playing now with DIY yeast and sugar CO2, been doing it for a couple of weeks, while saving money on pressurized system, and it does help to see the difference and get a feel of it. So I am still experimenting with it.

I like the jungle look too, Angie, but then after a while plants tend to choke themselves, if there is not enough light for lower levels and if I don't trim it, I end up with almost no plants at all. It already happened quite a few times due my negligence, plants lost their lower leafs, so overall plant mass became insufficient for healthy balance, nitrates went through the roof, hair algae took over, and well, this was not a pretty picture, yuck.

OK, I am still thinking about some improvements to this "stunning" composition , and can't really understand, what is so "off" with it. The hardscape, I guess? :spider:
Can someone give me a tip (or two, or three? ) 
Thanks to all!


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## svenhipsta

perhaps it's just me but it seems like the higher the species count the harder it is to get comfortable with a layout. but i stand by my earlier pronouncement of your tank being a stunner.


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## davemonkey

It looks really good, but since you're asking for a couple tips, I'll through an opinion to you.
All your major plant mass is stem plants. A large sword (like the Red-Ozelot...for color and size) or Aponogeton could add a new feel to the tank, and give you more freedom to not trim as often (since the large rosette plants don't tend to shed leaves when parts of them are shaded out).

Still, you tank is gorgeous like it is.

-Dave


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## tiffc

Guess I'm going to have to check out this link on CO2 equipment you guys are talking about! I did stumble upon Tom Barr's Non-CO2 tank method...and I do like  Thankfully I have another year before I'll be getting a new tank...it seems like in this hobby, I can't make up my mind!!! 
Time will tell, and I will tell...on this forum of course!

Wish I could actually SEE the pics...my laptop at work doesn't allow me to view posted pics for some reason. I'm not techie enough to figure that one out.


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## Shurik

Absolutely agree on the species count, Svenhipsta, I got way too many stems. And YES, dear Davemonkey, I was just thinking about some larger plants and even almost ordered some sort of a sword, I did think something like that would change this layout a bit. Imagine how hard it is to stare at this tank for so long thinking I can't really change anything in there at all! But then I backed out of ordering the plant without getting more information on them. I got some crypts in there with a larger leafs, but they are way too little to notice. What I am afraid of is that the sword will grow out this tank and come out of it to say hello to me in the kitchen or something. I never had any of them, I only heard they do grow like crazy. 

After all, it is only 20 gal toll and I got 24" width to play with. Plus this path in the middle which I hate, plus some stones, so somehow it seems like I got no space at all. But yes, I would bring down the species count (I need another tank!!!), and will add something.... hm... I want to add something! Sword, really? 

I am happy to see you, Tiffc, is still here and reading. Everything will start making some sense for you, if you don't give up!


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## tiffc

Oh no, there's no giving up here 

My family and friends already think I'm crazy in to this....where would the fun be if I would quit LOL? Glad to be a part of the forum, and thanks for the kind words, as always, Shurik!


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## Dielectric

Nice tank!


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