# Jumping in at the deep end



## eemeli (Nov 5, 2011)

A few weeks back, I finally decided that I really do want an aquarium. And being a bit perverse, I've ended up since then figuring out that the easiest and cheapest way of doing this is to buy a big tank and attempt to set it up as a natural planted tank.

And I may have just bought a used 140 gallon tank + associated paraphernalia that I need to go pick up next week.

I'm reading through Diana Walstad's book, forum threads here and elsewhere, reference sites, etc. trying to figure everything out, but there are a few questions that are still open to me:

First of all, am I insane to even try this? I used to have an aquarium when I was about 12, otherwise I'm a complete newbie. I could just do the normal thing and get a 30-40 gallon tank to start with, but really I'd rather have something more -- hence snapping up the 140G tank since it rather perfectly fills the available space in our flat. Also, except for the greater water volume I've understood that a bigger tank is in many ways easier to handle than a smaller one.

How much light do I need? Does the 2W/gallon rule make sense at this size, or is it too much?

Included in the package are two internal Eheim filters (model unknown) and an external Eheim professional II. I was planning on only using the internal filters to move the water around, is that sensible or should I buy a couple of powerheads instead and go without any filtration?

I'll start looking at what soils I can get here (Finland), and start sometime next week soaking & drying what I need. Some plants I'm getting along with the aquarium, other than that I'll need to see what's available locally.

As for fish and other animals, no idea yet. Suggestions? I'm not doing this to have pretty fish, but rather a pretty aquarium that can take care of itself as far as possible. NPT interests me because it's the most sensible approach I've come across to building something like a closed loop ecosystem. In other words, I want to get the whole system to work "naturally", rather than due to constant intervention.

That's it, for now. I'm certain that I'll think of more questions to ask as I go along...


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## ObiQuiet (Oct 9, 2009)

eemeli said:


> First of all, am I insane to even try this? I used to have an aquarium when I was about 12, otherwise I'm a complete newbie. [..] NPT interests me because it's the most sensible approach I've come across to building something like a closed loop ecosystem. In other words, I want to get the whole system to work "naturally", rather than due to constant intervention.


Not at all insane. I did the same thing, for the same reasons, though I never had a tank before. The best advice I can give is to go slowly, don't rush. It's easy to expect growth/change/results/stability more quickly than the biological "system" will respond on its own.

I'll let the more experienced people answer your other questions...


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Welcome to APC!

Big tanks are more stable than smaller ones, and more forgiving. So I agree, you are not insane. At least on this subject, LOL.

Light is one of the most confusing subjects in the hobby. The old "watts per gallon" rule does not apply anymore because of the rapidly changing technology. Post the dimensions of your tank, especially the depth, and it will help. For a Walstad tank, probably you will need no more than 2 T5 HO tubes.

Lots of filtration is never a bad thing. I would use all the filters, and put nothing in them except biomedia (lava rock, coarse sponges, etc.). You've got them, so why not? Big biofilters are more insurance against ammonia. I think circulating the entire volume of the tank 10x per hour is great, but you can get away with less.

Some more suggestions: don't use a soil layer that is too thick or too rich, 3-4 cm is plenty. Plant heavily right from the start with fast growing plants, even if you must use something cheap that you plan to remove later. It is the critical mass of plants that gives a Walstad tank its stability.

I hope this helps--please let us know how it goes.


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## eemeli (Nov 5, 2011)

Michael said:


> Light is one of the most confusing subjects in the hobby. The old "watts per gallon" rule does not apply anymore because of the rapidly changing technology. Post the dimensions of your tank, especially the depth, and it will help. For a Walstad tank, probably you will need no more than 2 T5 HO tubes.


The base is roughly 70" x 20" (180 x 50 cm) & it's 24" (60 cm) tall. It'll come with some fluorescents, no idea what strength yet.



> Lots of filtration is never a bad thing. I would use all the filters, and put nothing in them except biomedia (lava rock, coarse sponges, etc.). You've got them, so why not? Big biofilters are more insurance against ammonia. I think circulating the entire volume of the tank 10x per hour is great, but you can get away with less.


But what is it that I'll actually be filtering out of the water? And _why_ is lots of filtration a good thing? And shouldn't a decent plant load be enough to eat up the ammonia? Due to aesthetics, ambient volume and space use, I'd rather not use the external filter unless I actually have a reason to do so.

Also, it's not clear to me _how_ a high circulation will help. Here by "high" I mean going from something like 3x to 10x the volume per hour. Are the processes really fast enough for that to make a difference?



> Some more suggestions: don't use a soil layer that is too thick or too rich, 3-4 cm is plenty. Plant heavily right from the start with fast growing plants, even if you must use something cheap that you plan to remove later. It is the critical mass of plants that gives a Walstad tank its stability.


Here's a related newbie question: how do you plant and remove plants in a layered (soil+gravel) substrate? "Carefully", of course, but are there eg. good youtube tutorial videos about this somewhere?

Also, as I do want some asymmetry in the bottom surface, I'm thinking of using glazed tiles (or something else that seems relatively inert while cheap & available at the hardware store) to raise the bottom in places. Clearly any slope should be relatively shallow, but are there any other considerations I should take into account?


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## pearldanny (Mar 11, 2011)

eemeli said:


> But what is it that I'll actually be filtering out of the water? And _why_ is lots of filtration a good thing? And shouldn't a decent plant load be enough to eat up the ammonia? Due to aesthetics, ambient volume and space use, I'd rather not use the external filter unless I actually have a reason to do so.


I don't know the science behind it but my NPT has never had an external filter on it. All I have is one submerged power head for circulation and the tank is heavily planted. The tank has been running for a year and a half and the water quality is always pristine. Every time I have tested the nitrates were even at zero... all I did was follow Mrs. Walstad's instructions in her book to a T soil layer and all and its been the most beautiful almost non maintenance tank Ive ever had. my maintenance routine consists of topping off when needed and doing a 30 percent water change ever three months or so to keep the tank from getting to acidic. my tank is in my signature


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Here are links to two very detailed discussions about filtration and flow:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...club/75400-excited-word-about-filtration.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...478-discussion-laminar-vs-turbulant-flow.html

To briefly answer your question, you are filtering ammonia and nitrite. Yes, plants use these readily, and in a well-established tank with low fish populations, they can take care of all of it. But you will have a new tank--the plants are not establsihed and growing well yet. The soil is releasing ammonia into the water. You are likely to have dead leaves contributing to this, and even a dead fish or two. The biofilm has not covered all the surfaces in the tank yet. So providing an ideal environment for the biofilm (a filter with good media and flow) protects you from all the common new tank problems.

Circulation helps in a number of ways. Nutrients are mixed and dispersed evenly throughout the tank so that plants and biofilm can use them. Particles are kept in suspension until the filter can pick them up (yes, a biomedia-only filter will trap particles). Oxygen is distributed to all parts of the tank. Aquatic plants may benefit from circulation in ways that we do not completely understand, but that are similar to the ways terrestrial plants benefit from good air circulation.

Walstad's method definitely works, but you must plant heavily and keep stocking levels low until the tank is established. I regard biofiltration and good flow to be enhancements of her techniques that make new tanks more stable.

Planting in a layered substrate is no different than in a non-layered one. You don't go deep enough to disturb the soil layer if the cap is an inch deep. Moving plants is trickier. In my experience you can make the most awful mess with the soil, but with good filtration and flow, it all settles out within 24 hours. But I do not usually do extensive re-design to an established tank.

I've used galzed tiles in exactly the way you describe, and they work. Recently on the aquascaping forum, a member described putting small lava rocks in mesh bags and using those to create slopes. I haven't tried that yet.

And last, without a PAR meter light levels are a guess. But according to Hoppy's well-known chart on The Planted Tank, one T5 HO on top of your tank will give low light, and two will give high light. You can reduce that high light to medium light by raising the fixture 4" above the top of the tank.


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## Sumthin Fishy (Aug 22, 2009)

I use small internal filters without any media. I found I needed to use an air stone temporarily for the first couple of months until the tank stabilized. Even if you don't have any fish, the bacteria need oxygen in order to reproduce quickly.

I don't find moving plants to be that difficult (Except for the time I left the filter running. Big mistake!) I just circle the plant base with gravel, then slowly pull the plant out while shifting the gravel into the breach. Also, I don't do big changes all at once. Spacing it out over a couple of weeks keeps the mess down and doesn't disrupt the tanks' stability. 

Some people add fish right away, but I always have some ammonia from the soil. Probably because I never have enough plants, even when I think I've ordered plenty. So for the first month I'm always propagating the plants to fill the tank. With the size tank you're getting, you may want to consider that approach, otherwise you'll need to buy a huge amount of plants.

You certainly have a lot of fish choices for that tank. It's really personal preference, but some that I like are Pearl Gouramis, Bolivian Rams, Apistos and Rainbowfish. This is also a good time to set up a quarantine tank. With a tank that size, I wouldn't take any chance of introducing some disease or parasite.


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## eemeli (Nov 5, 2011)

A brief update on my progress:

After some searching, the most suitable soil I could find is an organic mix including peat and chicken manure nominally meant for growing grass. The time of year seems rather inopportune for much soil availability, and living in an apartment building I can't really dig up the back yard. The "soil" is pre-mixed with 8kg/m3 of Mg-rich limestone, which I presume is good given the rather soft water we have (GH 3.2 at the plant, haven't measured it yet from the tap), and means I shouldn't add dolomite to the substrate, yes?

In any case, I've now got maybe 9 gallons of it soaking in a tub, will spread it out to dry on a tarp in the living room tomorrow. I'll also look for more options tomorrow, if I end up dumping this lot I've lost perhaps 10 USD.

The hurry with the soil is due to the schedule: I'm picking up the tank on Friday, and I want to get it up and running as soon as possible in order to keep alive the fish that currently live in it. I'll also be getting a smaller, 13-gallon tank that will be their temporary home and eventually my quarantine tank. This has ended up being a slightly steeper dive into fishkeeping than I'd previously planned. 

Re: the filtration, I'll use the internal and external filters at least to start with, if for no other reason than to propagate the bacteria that currently live there. Once it's up and running, I think I'll take the external one offline and see what happens. I'm also planning on using the old sand/gravel on top of the mineralised soil, it's apparently in decent condition and should help maintain the stock of bacteria. Still, should I try to wash/rinse it, or just use it as it is?

About how many plants should I aim to plant to start with? "Plenty" isn't really very descriptive for me...


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Reusing the old gravel is good!

I can't speak for others, but when I say "heavily planted", I mean that when you look down from the top of the tank no more than 25% of the substrate is visible. 75% should be covered by plants.

Like most rules of thumb, this one can be misinterpreted. Tall, leafy fast growing stem plants are much more beneficial than a short ground cover of slow growing species.


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## jschall (Apr 13, 2009)

Hmm, you're getting fish with the tank? That might be a problem. I would see if you can get an LFS to hold them for you, then use some bottled bacteria product to start the big tank so that you can put fish in it. Seachem and Dr. Tim's are the ones that actually work. I think using a temp tank even for a little bit is going to present a serious hazard to the fish, especially if they're big or numerous.

Filtration wise, all you really need is flow if you're planting heavily enough, maybe a canister filter. I like large quantities of polyfil (basically polyester stuffing) in my canisters, provides great fine mechanical and some bio.
I would run a canister or sump and a propeller-style powerhead like a hydor koralia.

To densely plant a 140 on the cheap I would try to find stem plants like wisteria and buy like 10ish typical bundles of them. Big swords might be even better. Watch out for terrestrial plants, lots of chains sell them submerged and they don't last.


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## eemeli (Nov 5, 2011)

I now have a tank with lots of plants in it. Yay!

I ended up sort of mineralising the soil: I let it soak overnight, then manually squeezed it in handfuls & spread it out to dry in our living room. However, it took so long to dry that I only had time to soak it a second time & use it wet in the aquarium.









My assistants are included only to give an indication of size.

As I didn't want the bottom to be flat, I went and got a bunch of rock slates from the local hardware store that I piled into hills. I have no idea how badly erosion will wash things down, but I guess we'll see.









The hill on the right has only partly been covered in gravel at this stage. Using these irregular pieces was rather fun, kind of a pity they'll all (hopefully) stay hidden. The tacky background came with the tank, we'll be replacing it with something better once we figure out what we want.









The soil I lay on wet; estimating the depth was a bity tricky, but based on the volume of the two bucketfuls I used, on average there's now 2cm of soil. Sand was similar (also wet, as it's the old sand from the aquarium), but there's maybe 3cm of it on average.

The sand also, it seems, comes pre-populated with Malayan trumpet snails.









And now I have perhaps a dozen different types of plants planted. About half are previous tenants, the rest from a local shop. I'll have to look them up eventually, for now I'll wait and see if they survive. I filled the tank first to the top of the hills, planted everything, then took out the dirty water before filling it up.

Since that last photo, I've set up the external filter (Eheim Professional II) and a heater. I tried also adding one of the internal filters for some added flow, but that seemed too much so I took it out. The water's cleared up significantly since then, I'll think about another water change tomorrow if it looks necessary.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You're on your way! I'll be interested in your progress! BTW love your assistants !


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## eemeli (Nov 5, 2011)

So, an update on my 540-liter tank, which seems to be doing rather well.

First of all, here's a photo album of my progress so far. I've recently reorganised the layout (again), and I'll probably fiddle with it sometime soon again. My main problem for now seems to be that some plant species grow too well, and I need to trim something in the tank every week or two. I've also set up a 128-liter tank at my work as a NPT, with the same "problem".

There are I think about 20 or so different plant species in the tank for now, which is perhaps a few too many. I have a few different kinds of vallisneria and other grass-like plants growing, and I figure if they grow well I might concentrate on them a bit more. Recently I had to remove a tiger lotus as it was shading a third of the tank with its leaves.

For fish, I've five male ancistrus (probably cirrhosus), four cockatoo dwarf cichlids (one male), seven siamese algae eaters and just recently I added a school of 17 cherry barbs that seem to have adopted the four ember tetras that I was never able to catch when I moved the rest of their school to the tank at work. I feed the fish perhaps once a day, mostly with frozen artemia, krill or mysis, occasionally with flakes. The fish seem to like all of it, and seem to be doing well.

There's also a population of cherry shrimp (maybe 100, hard to tell, with a range on colours from near-transparent grayish-green to bright cherry red) and plenty of snails (ramshorn snails, common bladder snails, Malaysian trumpet snails, and assassin snails to control the preceding). Especially the MTSs used to swarm the aquarium glass, and I was able to count perhaps 200 on the glass at the same time. Manually collecting and discarding them repeatedly helped, and the assassin snails seem to keep their population to a reasonable level nowadays.

For a few months I had issues with too much visible back tuft algae, but trimming heavily on the Java ferns and removing a couple of sword plants completely helped. You can see the plants in question here.

As for tech, I'd guess that what I have qualifies for "low-tech": I have lamps (4x58W T8) and a single Eheim 2048 internal filter that nominally pumps 600 l/h, but it's old so the real rate is probably a bit less than that. The filter's two media containers are filled one with a sponge, the other with a bag of Sera Phosvec Granulat that I added when I measured my phosphate levels and realised they were off the scale -- I'm pretty sure it's the peat in the soil that's to blame.

I've changed the water (well, maybe 1/3 at most) a couple of times early on to combat cloudiness and to reduce the phosphate levels, other than that the only time I've taken water out has been to set up a quarantine tank for new arrivals. Also, the cloudiness disappeared pretty much completely when I got rid of the peppered corys that I got along with the tank; they really liked to dig up the bottom.

Our tapwater's rather soft and I only treat it with Sera Aquatan (water conditioner), so the water in the tank stay rather soft and neutral as well (GH 2, KH 2, PH 6.5). Occasionally I measure ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, but during the whole life of the tank I've not managed to get anything more than a nominal reading on any of those.

Given that the only way to keep an aquarium that I've now experience with gives me results like these, I have a really hard time understanding regimes that require constantly changing the water and otherwise messing with the ecosystem. Also, as my wife puts it, having gotten used to this feature of our living room for a few months now, most aquariums look really bare -- where are all the plants?


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

eemeli said:


> Given that the only way to keep an aquarium that I've now experience with gives me results like these, I have a really hard time understanding regimes that require constantly changing the water and otherwise messing with the ecosystem. Also, as my wife puts it, having gotten used to this feature of our living room for a few months now, most aquariums look really bare -- where are all the plants?


I couldn't agree more!


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## maxthedog123 (Jun 25, 2007)

eemeli said:


> Given that the only way to keep an aquarium that I've now experience with gives me results like these, I have a really hard time understanding regimes that require constantly changing the water and otherwise messing with the ecosystem. Also, as my wife puts it, having gotten used to this feature of our living room for a few months now, most aquariums look really bare -- where are all the plants?


Yes! When I first got into plants, of course they all started wilting. Following the advice on a few forums, I soon had T5HO lights, injected CO2 and plenty of ferts. I had unreal plant growth, but I got tired of trimming tanks 2x per week!! I discovered the NPT/El Natural/Walstad/Dutch/old-Innes "balanced aquarium" method and I knew it was for me. I have 5 aquariums now - 3 true NPT tanks and 2 that I will call semi-NPT and I love it. I am very busy - I love my aquariums, but I don't have time to devote 10 hours/week to aquarium maintenance.

The only thing I miss from the high tech CO2 days is being able to have enough plants to decide on Monday I wanted to set up a new tank and having enough outgrowth by Thursday or Friday to fully plant a new tank. Things go much slower in the NPT world, but I like it.


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