# Realitively new tank I think I have plant problems..



## emmagatorone (May 30, 2005)

Hey everyone, just joined up and am looking for more opinions as to what the problem is in my tank. It's a 10 gallon and I only have a few plants in there at the moment. I have an annubias, a cryptacourne (sp?), a Java Fern, and a madagasgar lace plant. I thought my crypt was doing ok until I saw this.









My annubias, is having similiar issues. Here are some more pics:














































I've added 2 Flourish Tabs (Seachem) 1 week ago on opposite sides of the tank. I am not running a C02 setup as of yet. And, for lighting I have a Satellite Compact Fluorescent Fixture putting out 40W. Here is a link to my light fixture.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=11418&N=2004+113176

I greatly appreciate any and all help/advice that you all can give me! I would really like to succeed with this tank!


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

_How long has your tank been set up?_

_Are dosing any liquid ferts?_

_What are you water parameters?_

First thing you need to do is pull the rhizome of the Anubias up so only half the rhizome is buried.

Second hook up some DIY C02.

Third get some more plants.

You look like you may have a nutrient deficiency and some algae starting.

Before you get more plants you may want to exchange the gravel out for some substrate made for plants.


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## emmagatorone (May 30, 2005)

Ok, this tank has been up and running for a good 3 months I want to say. My NH3 is at 0, my N0-2 is at <0.3 (mg/l), my pH is in the neighborhood of 7.3, my GH is at 7 and my KH is at 4. I hope that makes sense to you all.. I'm using the Tetratest kit for these readings. In addition to the Flourish tabs, I am also dosing with the Sechem Flourish liquid fert every week.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

If your N03 is at 0, then you also need to add nitrates. You can do this with Seachem nitrogen.

I don't know which Seachem fert you are using but you need to be adding Seachem flourish, micros and iron. Also you can use Seachem Excel for a carbon source since you are not injecting C02.

Another parameter you need to keep in check is your Phosphates (P04). Keeping P04 at between 0.4-1ppm and N03 at around 10ppm is a good balance. This will help plant growth and to keep algae under control.

I would also recommend setting up a DIY C02 and keeping that at around 20ppm, this will also help plant growth and algae away.

The main thing is keeping a good all around balance in lighting, C02 & ferts.


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## emmagatorone (May 30, 2005)

I've got N03 in there. I just picked up a test kit and Im at 5.0ppm (mg/L). The flourish I am adding just says Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium 0.7 - 0.01 - 0.37

I have no clue what that means, but it does have iron in it. so on top of that, I also have 2 flourish tabs on opposite sides of the aquarium. It looks like everywhere else I have posted this, that everybody else is saying C02 as well. I'll get that going but I want to make sure that that will show it's self to be the "missing" link in this tank so I can add more plants!! Opinions?


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

emmagatorone said:


> I've got N03 in there. I just picked up a test kit and Im at 5.0ppm (mg/L). The flourish I am adding just says Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium 0.7 - 0.01 - 0.37
> 
> I have no clue what that means, but it does have iron in it. so on top of that, I also have 2 flourish tabs on opposite sides of the aquarium. It looks like everywhere else I have posted this, that everybody else is saying C02 as well. I'll get that going but I want to make sure that that will show it's self to be the "missing" link in this tank so I can add more plants!! Opinions?


The first thing you need to do is to get a clue before you do anything else. That way you will understand the "why" of the decisions you make. You can find a nice easy to read primers at http://www.rexgrigg.com/ and http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/

I partially disagree with most folks who automatically recommend adding CO2. There are sucessful non-CO2 methods. It depends on the amount of light in relation to the tank size. You'll see references to "wpg" everywhere. This is a "rule of thumb" ratio of tank gallons to watts of light. The rule works nicely for tank sizes between 20-75 gallons. If your ratio is 2 or less, generally you don't necessarily _need_ to add CO2. In your case, 40 watts over a 10 gallon tank, although it calculates to 4wpg, does not necessarily warrant CO2 addition because you are below the 20 gallon threshold. You _can_ add it if you wish, but it's an added complexity more easily solved by the addition of a carbon substitute such as Seachem Excel.

It's just an opinion but I wouldn't bother with DIY CO2 for a 10 g. I don't agree at all that this is the missing link. Remember that these DIY systems involve the addition of yeast and sugar every few days (what happens if you go out of town for a few days?). If you are inexperienced you can get fluctuating CO2 values due to pressure variations (which can cause some algae problems because algae respond much more quickly to fluctuating CO2 levels) or you can blow the materials into the tank and make a mess. Don't get me wrong, many people use this method with fantastic sucess but wouldn't it be easier to just add a few capfuls of Excel every few days? If you buy the large bottles it's slightly more economical than the smaller bottles.

I would start with the simple solutions first. Similar to terrestial plants, aquatic plants require Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Carbon and trace elements (vitamins) such as iron (Fe) Calcium (C) etc.

First of all, ditch the Fourish Tabs and use the Flourish liquid Trace or any liquid such as Kent, TMG etc. Remember that aquatic plants feed primarily from the leaves first, then from the root, so you should always be thinking about treating the "water column" in which the plants are submerged. The yellowing and deteriorating leaf photo is symptomatic of Nitrogen and Phosphorus starvation, not of carbon starvation which primarily shows up as stunted growth rates. You can use the Seachem Nitrogen and Phosphorus or you can provide these nutrients in the form of Potassium Nitrate KNO3 and KH2PO4 from raw chemical suppliers such as www.gregwatson.com (excellent service by the way). Adding both of these chemicals wiill also provide the Potassium (K). If you don't use the raw forms then you would have to get Seachem Potassium or equivalent.

As far as test kits I wouldn't bother with any other than pH, kH and gH. The rest such as NO3/PO4 are notoriously inaccurate and inconsistent unless you painstakingly calibrate. If you dose the nutrients properly the plants and algae become become your test kits. When the plants go from yellow to green and stop deteriorating you know you are dosing enough Nitrogen/Potassium. If you see new leaves coming from the swords every 5 days or so you have enough Phosphorus/Carbon. If you get algae you know you are NOT dosing enough. I would keep things simple for now. If you start dosing today you should see an improvement in within three weeks. The problem with the kits with beginners is that you start focusing on the kit readings and it diverts your attention from the plants. As you sit an look at your tank, scrutinize every leaf on each plant. As each day passes you'll learn the "behavior" of the plant. You'll see when a new leaf appears, what color it is and what form it takes and how long it takes to mature. Not enough emphasis is placed on this simple excercise. Instead, everyone is instructed to go chase test kit readings.

I agree with trena that the annubias should have the rhizome above the surface and that you should get a lot more plants. I would triple or quadruple the number you have currently. The reason is that you need a sufficient amout of plant "biomass" to effectively process the nutrients and to effectively perform the biochemistry.

So to summarize:

Add more plants.
Add regular macro nutrients (N P and K) via raw chemical (preferred due to lower cost) or via commercial products such as Seachem.
Add Seachem Excel for carbon (my preferred option) or CO2 via injection.
Study your plants and read more.

Cheers,


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## emmagatorone (May 30, 2005)

Ok, I think I'd rather go with the commercial products here. So let's get a shopping list together. 
1. Flourish Excel
2. Flourish Nitrogen
3. ???
4. ???


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

3. Plants
4. Plants
5. Plants
6. Plants
7. Plants
8. Plants


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

Laith said:


> 3. Plants
> 4. Plants
> 5. Plants
> 6. Plants
> ...


Exactly!

Are you sure you'd prefer to get 5 or 6 bottles instead of just dumping 1/4 teaspoon of 2 powders? OK, I guess the ide of the raw chemicals is a bit intimidating. Your shopping list should then look something lik this:

Plants Plants Plants
Flourish
Flourish Nitrogen
Flourish Potassium
Flourish Phosphorus
Flourish Excel
Flourish Equilibrium (if you have soft water)

Some people recommend Flourish Iron (Fe) which baffles me. Regular Flourish already contains Iron so if you feel you need more iron why not just add more Flourish? I have yet to figure that one out.

Unfortunately I have no idea how to dose these products since I like most here use the raw chemicals. There are threads explaining the correlation between the dosing and the levels achived but I don't know what those levels are. You can simply dose per the bottles in the beginning and proceed based on your results. A sample dosing chart is to be found here: http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourish.html

Did I mention the raw chemicals are easier to dose, more controlable and much more economical? You'd really only need two different powders and you can still use the Flourish and the Excel....

PS. please add more plants!

Cheers,


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

ardvark said:


> ...Some people recommend Flourish Iron (Fe) which baffles me. Regular Flourish already contains Iron so if you feel you need more iron why not just add more Flourish? I have yet to figure that one out....


I think the reasoning is that by using Flourish Iron they can add only Iron. If they just increase their dose of Flourish they are also increasing the dosage of all the other trace elements which may not always be a good thing.


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## ardvark (Feb 26, 2005)

Laith said:


> I think the reasoning is that by using Flourish Iron they can add only Iron. If they just increase their dose of Flourish they are also increasing the dosage of all the other trace elements which may not always be a good thing.


OK, fair enough, but it's yet one more bottle to buy. It also seems to me that for example, that Fe shoud be used as a proxy measurement for the rest of the traces, so if you are dosing flourish and you discover that you need more iron isn't it likely you'll need more of everything else as well? Looking at the flourish contents you can see that there is about 457 times as much Fe as there is Zinc. It contains 3,200 times as much Fe as Copper which is the only element to be really concerned about. It seems you can easily double or triple the dosage without ever doing any damage. There's probably more Copper in the tap water than in an entire 100ml bottle. Also I've never heard of algae outbreaks due to excess Molybdenum so I really wouldn't worry about it.

It may be however that the Fe from flourish iron stays chelated longer and may be more accessible (at least that what it says on the website). For emmagatorone's shopping list however I wouldn't bother with flourish iron for now. Keep it simple.

Cheers,


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

I agree. ;-)


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## emmagatorone (May 30, 2005)

Well, I just got the C02 going in there a few days ago, so then I just had to get some backdrop so you couldn't see it! I posted my question on several other boards. Everyone said to buy more plants buy more plants! I just couldn't figure out why since the ones I had weren't doing too well. Granted, they are low light plants but still.. Either way, I gave in and here's the end result. I'm not sure if I'm done with this tank yet or not as I got some open gravel in the middle . But, right now I think I like it.

Here's a pic of my "jungle"










Thanks for the help! I'm sure I'll be around as I learn more and such. I'm also fixing to convert my 40 gallon Malawi Mbuna tank over to a planted tank as well with different fish. Yes, the diggers are going back!


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