# Cycle



## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

How long does it take cycle to work? Or can no one tell?


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Would that be Seachem Cycle?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I've heard not so good things about the product "Cycle". It messes up more than it helps, from what I've heard from other hobbiest.

_What are you trying to accomplish by adding this product_?... If it is adding benificial bacteria then the answer is "Bio-spira". However for a heavily planted tank that is not needed.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

What do you mean it does more harm than help? I thought it just speeds up the process?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I have not personally used Cycle, this is just second hand info from other hobbist. I've been told that it does not work as the label says it does and causes other water parameters issues.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

John, have you tried this yet? What has happened? 

I was thinking about this product before you posted this thread. 

I am curious.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

I'm just trying to see what it does with products like bio spira, gain green , and cycle. All claim to provide benefical bacteria for a new aquarium.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Do you mean with, instead of, or do you mean that you are comparing them all to see which is best?



> What are you trying to accomplish by adding this product?... If it is adding benificial bacteria then the answer is "Bio-spira". However for a heavily planted tank that is not needed.


Do want to try to 'cycle' the tank before putting in the plants? If so, why?

When Trena says that you do not need to do this in a heavily planted tank, 
I would refer you to Diana Walstad's book which talks about beneficial bacteria and plants. 
She has a whole chapter on it, which by the way is a fantastic read; and a fantastic book. Great price too!

When I am home, I will try to find out which chapter it is. You would love it.

I think your plants may do the work for you. 
But then again, we need to know what you are trying to accomplish.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

The most proven product out there is BIO-Spira, hands down. It cycled my tank in 24 hours. The only other product that comes close is Seachem Stability, it utilizes sulfur fixing bacteria spores instead of the natural Nitro. sp. found in all aquariums.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> Seachem Stability, it utilizes sulfur fixing bacteria spores instead of the natural Nitro. sp. found in all aquariums.


 Is that a good thing? (It sounds good.)


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Jimbo205 said:


> Is that a good thing? (It sounds good.)


Yep. It is. That's why Stability works unlike other products. The bacteria sp. they use are a much hardier and will survive conditions that the Nitro sp. bacteria can't.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

So, if I have set up a 2.5 Gallon with 1 1/2 inch of soil and 1 1/2 inch of SoilMaster Select should I add Seachem Stability to the tank before I put in plants?


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Raul-7 said:


> The most proven product out there is BIO-Spira, hands down. It cycled my tank in 24 hours. The only other product that comes close is Seachem Stability, it utilizes sulfur fixing bacteria spores instead of the natural Nitro. sp. found in all aquariums.


No, this is wrong. It's the reverse of what you are saying.

Stability does not use sulfur fixing bacteria. It says so in their product description. Stability

Stability™ will rapidly and safely establish the aquarium biofilter in freshwater and marine systems, thereby preventing the #1 cause of fish death: "new tank syndrome". Stability™ is formulated specifically for the aquarium and contains a synergistic blend of aerobic, anaerobic, and facultative bacteria which facilitate the breakdown of waste organics, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Unlike competing products, the bacteria employed by Stability™ are non-sulfur fixing and will not produce toxic hydrogen sulfide. Stability™ is completely harmless to all aquatic organisms as well as aquatic plants, thus there is no danger of over use. Stability™ is the culmination of nearly a decade of research and development and represents the current state of the art in natural biological management.

I've been told that some of the bacteria used in Bio-Spira fixate on sulfur.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Left C said:


> No, this is wrong. It's the reverse of what you are saying.
> 
> Stability does not use sulfur fixing bacteria. It says so in their product description. Stability
> 
> ...


Thanks for catching that. I got them mixed up. Sorry.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

Okee Dokee. 

My favorite words for that are "bass ackwards."


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## AndyT. (Jun 28, 2006)

I *strongly urge* all aquarists to regard any claims of instant cycling, cycling in less than a week, etc. with grave suspicion. The aquarium industry has nobody policing the claims made about non-regulated products and as a result, some manufacturers simply invent claims regardless of their truth.

Whatever Seachem's Stability is, it does not appear to use any biological processes to reduce ammonia or nitrite. In tests I have seen, Stability does not seem to reduce ammonia or nitrite levels at all. This disappointed me a great deal because I have a high regard for Seachem and use many of their products, both fresh and saltwater.

To the best of my knowledge, there are only about six companies worldwide who manufacture products containing true, live species of nitrifying bacteria. Most of them do not sell into the aquarium hobby because there is so little profit to be made in the hobby. The real money is in selling nitrifying bacteria for wastewater remediation, particularly industrial. For example, the world's largest producer of nitrifying bacteria is Novozymes. Their BI-CHEM 1010N is sold throughout the world to remediate ammonia in industrial wastewater.

There are only two producers of true, live nitrifying bacteria for the aquarium hobby. trenac identified one of the two here.

How can you tell if a product contains true, live nitrifying bacteria? There are some big hints in the manner that Novozymes sells their products:
Their products require refrigeration
their products come with a specific shelf life, in their case, three months

True, live nitrifying bacteria are autotrophic - they don't form spores. So there is a *very limited and finite shelf life* for those products. In any concentrated form, they have a very limited life (a couple of months). Diluted, they might last six months - at best. Which is why so few distributors in the pet industry will carry them. It's easier to carry products that make false claims than to carry products that require rapid turnover and rotation.

Okay, I feel better with that off my chest...


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

Seachem's Stability Works. It cannot be over-dosed. And the bacteria start coming out of the spore state within minutes. I used 2-3x the recommended dosage several times over 24-36hrs, combined with major overdoses of Prime to bind up the ammonia and nitrites. In 48hrs a fish-only tank (20g) full of bait fish (6-7 dozen med. minnows and 1 dozen 2-3" comets) is fully cycled. I was looking for a solution to this problem for over a yr. Seachem's Stability + Prime solved it. It also worked on a 10g with 3 dozen minnows and 1 dozen comets.

On the 10g I used 15-20ml of Prime and 10-20ml of Stability both 3x/day for 24-36hrs. And actually about the same on the 20g.

It will cloud from the Bacterial bloom, but then will clear up.

It works. Try it. The minnows are VERY sensitive fish.

The shelf life of Stability is 4yrs plus. Go to Seachem and research it. I've already spent my hours and hours there......:supz:


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## AndyT. (Jun 28, 2006)

Hi Naja002,

I won't argue because I cannot yet cite data to validate my claim (the study has not yet been published). But I am confident that if Stability works, it has nothing to do with nitrifying bacteria. 

I also promise to post when I have actual published data I can cite, which will probably be several months from now.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

A little late with my question, but, John, are you setting up a fish only tank? With heavily planted tanks to start with, cycling is not an issue.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> When Trena says that you do not need to do this in a heavily planted tank,
> I would refer you to Diana Walstad's book which talks about beneficial bacteria and plants.
> She has a whole chapter on it, which by the way is a fantastic read; *and a fantastic book. Great price too*!
> 
> ...


IV. BACTERIA page 57-71. It is all there. Enjoy.


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## tkos (Oct 30, 2006)

From every other website I frequent, Bio_Spira is the only source of actual tank bacteria and not something that will be a stop gap while your bacteria grow.

But if you heavily plant, stock slowly and check for ammonia and nitrites spiking in the tank, you should be fine. Keep ammonia and nitrite levels low or (according to test kits) non-existant (they are still there just really low, test kits aren't perfect).

Bio-Spira, by the way, should be purchased cold and kept cold. If it is allowed to warm up the bacteria will die without a food source fairly quickly.


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

stability question - Seachem Support Forums

Stability Question - Seachem Support Forums

Stability Bacteria--Dormant to Active.....? - Seachem Support Forums

"Over-Dosing" Stability.....? - Seachem Support Forums

HTH


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Great stuff! Thanks for posting the links.


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

AndyT. said:


> There are only two producers of true, live nitrifying bacteria for the aquarium hobby. trenac identified one of the two here.


What are the two? Trenac didn't identify anything in the post you linked. I take it you mean Bio Spira. If so, what's the other one?

My understanding is Ecological Laboratories makes bacteria based products similar to the ones you linked on Novozymes. They do formulate some for the aquarium trade. They don't really market them as "instant cyclers" but more as "helper" bacteria. I can say from experience that while they don't instant cycle, they do greatly speed up the process.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Salt, what is your opinion and / or experience with Seachem Stability? 
Have you ever used it?


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## AndyT. (Jun 28, 2006)

Okay, earlier I said this:



AndyT. said:


> I am confident that if Stability works, it has nothing to do with nitrifying bacteria.


Apparently I should not be so confident. After speaking with one of the biologists involved he corrected me: Stability may contain nitrifying bacteria. But if so, they are not aerobic autotrophs - so they would not be the species more familiar to aquarium hobbyists: _nitrosomonas, nitrospira, nitrobacter, nitrococcus, nitrosococcus_. But there are still plenty of other species out there which are nitrifiers.

I think at this point having corrected myself, I am going to shut up and perhaps be thought a fool rather than opening my mouth and removing all doubt...


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> The most proven product out there is BIO-Spira, hands down. It cycled my tank in 24 hours. The only other product that comes close is Seachem Stability, it utilizes sulfur fixing bacteria spores instead of the natural Nitro. sp. found in all aquariums.





Left C said:


> No, this is wrong. It's the reverse of what you are saying.
> 
> Stability does not use sulfur fixing bacteria. It says so in their product description. Stability
> 
> ...


There you go Andy.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

> so they would not be the species more familiar to aquarium hobbyists: nitrosomonas, nitrospira, nitrobacter, nitrococcus, nitrosococcus. But there are still plenty of other species out there which are nitrifiers.


I do not know many aquarium hobbyists that are familiar with those names.

I also assume that any member that knows those names, what they are and what they do and what they mean; 
is pretty darned smart!

Would any of those things be in my compost pile or in my organic garden?

Gardening supply companies sell what is called a 'hot pack' which contains some kind of bacteria and 'food' for bacteria to speed up the composting process. I realize that all soil is alive. ( I did not previously know this - or how root hairs on plants worked.)

Many topics between aquatic gardening and organic gardening are similar and relative.

Your answer would be most helpful. And again, you sound very smart to me.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Jimbo205 said:


> I do not know many aquarium hobbyists that are familiar with those names.
> 
> I also assume that any member that knows those names, what they are and what they do and what they mean;
> is pretty darned smart!
> ...


Same species that are found in our aquariums are found in your soil, which are basically the first three species Andy mentioned.

As for the other two, I'm assuming they are only found in salt water, but I'm not sure.


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

Okay, I have got to ask this. 

How did you guys learn that?


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## Salt (Apr 5, 2005)

http://www.marinelandlabs.com/science/nspira.asp


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## Beasts (Apr 14, 2006)

Why not just ask a friend to siphon the gravel on a well established, healthy aquarium and immediately pour that grungy water into your new aquarium? There should be enough bacteria in a sample like that to thoroughly innoculate your new aquarium. Or, if you trust your lfs, maybe they would be willing to provide you with a bag of their freshly siphoned water. Obviously you want to be careful not to introduce any pathogens.
Beasts


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## Jimbo205 (Feb 2, 2006)

MARINELAND.COM - BIO-SPIRA RESEARCH :brick:

Ouch!

Well the page on the BIO-Wheel is easy to read and understand. 
( I have this on 2 of my tanks and like it very much - even if I don't need it any more on a planted aquarium.)

The page on the BIO-Spira Research if cut and pasted into Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing 
can be a very challenging page to practice your typing on! :cheeky grin:

I reads like the person writing it knew what they were talking about.

So Salt, which do you personally prefer the Seachem Stability or the MarineLand BIO-Spira?


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Jimbo205 said:


> So Salt, which do you personally prefer the Seachem Stability or the MarineLand BIO-Spira?


I hope you don't mind, but if you want guaranteed overnight cycling then go for BIO-Spira. If you can wait a week and are slowly going to add your fish load then go with Stability.

Personally, the only time I used BIO-Spira is when I setup a new tank and had nowhere else to put the fish. I could definitely see them stressing out, I went out and got a small sachet of BIO-Spira and added it. Within 24 hours everything was back to normal.

Now, I just use Stability along with established sponges, filters, etc. and I add a couple pellets of food for the bacteria to feed off of and start multiplying. I meant the nitrogen coming out of the food, not the food itself.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

I want to emphasize a point that has already been made several times in this thread: If you are setting up a planted tank, there is no need to be concerned with "cycling" and the products that supposedly make it happen fast. The plants, fish, and mulm and water from existing tanks will supply a starter culture of the helpful bacteria and that weill be enough.

Actually, plants prefer ammonia/amminium as food. Some say that the plants acually reduce the amount of "nitrifying" bacteria because they grab the ammonia/ammonium before it can be converted to bacteria food.

Please do NOT try dosing with ammonia. In theory it would work but it would be very risky.

Bill


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## Intros (Apr 26, 2006)

I found  another manufacturer  of cycling products, in this case with a dual action. If somebody used that it could be interesting to hear the opinion about results.


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## Naja002 (Nov 15, 2005)

> If you can wait a week and are slowly going to add your fish load then go with Stability.


That's not really necessary. Stability is Bacteria--so it cannot be "Over-dosed". Wasted-Yes, but not Over-dosed.

Seachem-"Over-Dosing" Stability.....?

Seachem claims to setup a Tank and add fish on the same day using Stability:



> You can set up your aquarium and, as long as your parameters are right, add fish the same day. We have done this many times and so have many of our customers. I have had pet stores with new systems dose their tanks with Stability and add a shipment of fish the same day.


Seachem Post #4--Confused

Prime, Stability and Ammonia Alerts are how I deal with my Feeder Fish Influx Problem--Both in the Feeder Fish Holding Tank and in the tanks they go into to be eaten.

Whatever bacteria there is not presently enough food for--will just die off. If You want an "Instant-Cycle" with Stability--Just Over-dose it. I can "Cycle" My Feeder Fish Holding Tank from Zero fish load to WAAAAAAAY over-crowded in 2 days. I keep an eye on Free Ammonia with the Ammonia Alerts and Neutralize it with Over-doses of Prime every 12-24hrs.

HTH


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## Chandresh (Nov 18, 2006)

Has anyone used Fritz zyme#7 for freshwater, or their turbo start (for those with deep pockets)? I have used both and they worked perfectly. I'm going to set up a nano tank next week, and just ordered some #7. It IS a 32 oz bottle, which is "overkill" for my 8 gallon tank, but I figured it'd be the same or better than an ounce of turbo start, going by the bacteria count on their website.


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