# There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!



## JustLikeAPill

I ran across this website: http://www.naturalaquario.com

and they have a stainless steel canister filter listed for 149 euro. There is no picture, so I e-mailed them. They said it is not released for sale yet and is still in development.

They did tell me that it is being produced in stainless steel, will have a large capacity, and you must provide your own pump (which is actually a good thing IMO because you can choose your desired flow.)

I asked when it might be available for sale and if you can buy one if you are in the U.S. Waiting for a reply.

This is the page with the filter but no pic yet.

http://www.naturalaquario.com/?p=148

This is a third of the cost of the ADA filter, although that doesn't account for shipping from Europe to the US (if they will ship that is) and no pump is included. Even if you spend $100 on a nice pump, that's still a great savings.

I just thought I would pass this along. A company called CADE also makes stainless steel canisters and I e-mailed them but they never replied. I guess because they don't speak English, but Natural Aquario reps do!


----------



## Morgan

I heard these ADA clones are popping up. In one of ADA's advertisements, they footnoted why they changed their logo and packaging in order to steer away from look-a-likes. I see they have their own glass lily pipes and everything.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Yeah, I know it is a knock-off (at what point does a knock off become a competitor anyway) but if you want a stainless steel filter this looks a lot cheaper! I hope it comes out soon. A stainless steel filter is one of the things on my bucket list.


----------



## sierramists1

Those look really nice but I doubt they're gonna be shipping them to the US anytime soon. :doubt:


----------



## Csr

Great find. :whoo:

There is a distributor here in Spain. \\/
I will send them a message and ask them to let me know when they get them in.

If you think about it though.
ES 600 (36cm) is $549 plus shipping.

This is 149EUR ($216 give or take) plus say around $100 for shipping, 
$316 for the filter alone, then you still have to get a pump.


----------



## Csr

Do not know if these are any good but

http://www.amazon.com/Marineland-C-...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000NRTLVY

http://www.amazon.com/Marineland-C-...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000NRXB6A


----------



## niko

First off I really, REALLY dislike the idea of copying ADA's product style. Any copying for profit sends one single message: "We are stupid and can't come up with anything new. We are also low class so we will steal any idea we can."

I looked around that web site and I see one single thing - EVERYTHING is a copy of ADA. It is not a "knock off" it's a "rip off".

This is a free world. And you can get as low as you want. You are free to make a spectacle of yourself any time you want.

"Large" volume of the canister sounds very nice. I can't see the image on the link. If for the equivalent of $200 you get like 3-4 gallons of filter volume I can do only one thing - laugh. That is NOT large. But it's "stainless", meaing it's "cool". Because Amano made it cool... And to add a pump that is like the high quality ADA pump you will spend about $200. Plus money for hoses, clamps, valves...

And if you have to attach your own pump I imagine the ugly clamps, hoses, valves that you will will come up with. ADA pays extreme attention to every single detail on their products. Even the black rubber elbow that connects the pump to the canister is made of special materials. Don't confuse a real Bugatti Veyron with one made of cardboard and two $1 spraypaint cans from Wal-Mart.

Real:









Cardboard:









Spray paint:









A "knock off". Nice!:









Hope someone finds a way to convince me I'm wrong about all of this. Because it's low class and I don't like things like that associated with this hobby.

--Nikolay


----------



## Jeffww

niko said:


> First off I really, REALLY dislike the idea of copying ADA's product style. Any copying for profit sends one single message: "We are stupid and can't come up with anything new. We are also low class so we will steal any idea we can."
> 
> I looked around that web site and I see one single thing - EVERYTHING is a copy of ADA. It is not a "knock off" it's a "rip off".
> 
> This is a free world. And you can get as low as you want. You are free to make a spectacle of yourself any time you want.
> 
> "Large" volume of the canister sounds very nice. I can't see the image on the link. If for the equivalent of $200 you get like 3-4 gallons of filter volume I can do only one thing - laugh. That is NOT large. But it's "stainless", meaing it's "cool". Because Amano made it cool... And to add a pump that is like the high quality ADA pump you will spend about $200. Plus money for hoses, clamps, valves...
> 
> And if you have to attach your own pump I imagine the ugly clamps, hoses, valves that you will will come up with. ADA pays extreme attention to every single detail on their products. Even the black rubber elbow that connects the pump to the canister is made of special materials. Don't confuse a real Bugatti Veyron with one made of cardboard and two $1 spraypaint cans from Wal-Mart.
> 
> Real:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A "knock off":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope someone finds a way to convince me I'm wrong about all of this. Because it's low class and I don't like things like that associated with this hobby.
> 
> --Nikolay


When you're charging maybe 2-3 times the actual value of an item it becomes pretty difficult to _not_ justify others copying their style. What I'm still confused about is why they're still charging so much for what's essentially a pressure cooker with piping in it. Steel made containers should be a lot cheaper than the integrated motor head and pressed plastic filters we have.

And then with that in mind you realize that what ADA is doing by over charging isn't helping but making things worse for the hobbyist. They overcharge their products and then other manufacturers see the opportunity to remake their items for _slightly_ less which limits innovation overall. AND THEN on top of that there shouldn't really be any complaints. Every hobby has their knock offs: knock off stereo systems, knock off power tools, knock off movies etc. I'm not saying ADA doesn't make higher quality stuff than the knock off folks. But the fact that the knock off stuff is A. About a half to a sixth of the price of the originals and only barely missing in quality implies that ADA is really grossly over charging us.

Anyways, I'm all on board with the steel canister filter idea but definitely not going to pay 216 dollars for a 10 dollar steel can and a maybe 20 dollar lid. In fact half the glass equipment we use can be made by a lab glass blower on a college campus. If you're still in college just go up to him, offer him like 10-20 bucks and he'll make it for you in a day.


----------



## niko

A pressure cooker with piping in it that no American company has found a way to replicate. Or maybe they are careful to not appear low class copying something. So we have a plethora of ugly looking equipment available to us. Cheap. We love "cheap", right? Not really if you look closely at what you are getting.

Example: 
- Fluval FXwhatever. "Largest" and "nicest" canister filter you can buy. About $300. Plastic, thick ugly hoses, volume good for a 55 gallon tank. Large flow from a non-pressure rated pump encased in plastic.
- ADA's largest filter - someone here said $550. Every little detail has been chosen carefully for performance, materials, durability, and looks.

How you can save $109 (so you invest them to grow to $1M one day):

Spanish stainless steel bucket: $200
Pressure rated pump (Iwaki, what ADA uses): $200.
Hoses, clamps, valves: $40
Time to buy and put everyting together so it performs for eternity: $1.00
--------------------------------------------
Total: $441
ADA filter: $550

This discussion is pointless. *Fake is fake*. That's all there is to it. 
This discussion could have one single positive outcome - for all of us to agree that not everything that is shiny and yellow is gold. Forgive me folk, but I doubt we will agree.










--Nikolay


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Niko, You said ADA's largest filter was $550. For someone who likes the Superjet so much, you should know that the SMALLEST filter is $550. The medium size ES-1200 is over ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS... I don't know what the largest filter costs. Likely two grand. 




Maybe you will give me a couple hundred bucks to make up the difference in price between the stainless steel knock-off and the superjet? You must have plenty of money to not understand why someone would be remotely interested in a knock-off stainless steel filter. But then if you did give me enough money to make up the difference, the pump will still only push a wimpy 100 GPh (actually less) so... At least this knock-off filter lets you choose your own pump.

Niko, no one was debating anything until you came along. This is not a thread for a debate. I never said the knock-off was as high quality as the superjet. I never said it was as good. The purpose of this thread was merely to let people know that there will soon be another option available.


I do not think ADA is overcharging for their filter... at least the ES-600. I think it really is worth $600 (especially when you consider it comes with lily pipes) but the point is that not everyone can afford the highest quality filter (although the flow is a joke...) and this would be a good option for someone like me who just wants something nice, but not the nicest. 

Niko, while not everyone can afford a Bugatti veyron... but some people can afford a BMW and while not as nice, it's still pretty nice. Your argument of a cardboard Bugatti is not accurate. A stainless steel filter that's 149 euro before tax and pump, etc. is not low class. If anything it's middle class. A Rena XP proudly displayed as a superjet would be is low class. Don't confuse the two.


----------



## Jeffww

niko said:


> A pressure cooker with piping in it that no American company has found a way to replicate. Or maybe they are careful to not appear low class copying something. So we have a plethora of ugly looking equipment available to us. Cheap. We love "cheap", right? Not really if you look closely at what you are getting.
> 
> Example:
> - Fluval FXwhatever. "Largest" and "nicest" canister filter you can buy. About $300. Plastic, thick ugly hoses, volume good for a 55 gallon tank. Large flow from a non-pressure rated pump encased in plastic.
> - ADA's largest filter - someone here said $550. Every little detail has been chosen carefully for performance, materials, durability, and looks.
> 
> How you can save $109 (so you invest them to grow to $1M one day):
> 
> Spanish stainless steel bucket: $200
> Pressure rated pump (Iwaki, what ADA uses): $200.
> Hoses, clamps, valves: $40
> Time to buy and put everyting together so it performs for eternity: $1.00
> --------------------------------------------
> Total: $441
> ADA filter: $550
> 
> This discussion is pointless. *Fake is fake*. That's all there is to it.
> This discussion could have one single positive outcome - for all of us to agree that not everything that is shiny and yellow is gold. Forgive me folk, but I doubt we will agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Nikolay


I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. Making a stainless steel can look good is a matter of give it a brushed surface and some neat little polishing. On top of that I'm pretty certain of the internal design hasn't been engineered to the same degree as you claim. I doubt they've calculated their filter to have the perfect flow angles or that they've carefully mathed out the exact volume of media that is optimal. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they've designed a filter with less bypass but as far as I can tell it looks like a stainless steel version of the Eheim classic. Big whoop.

If you think you're paying for aesthetics I think you're out of your mind. Aesthetics are cheap. Fashion jewellery is a lot cheaper than diamonds but can look just as good when worn in the right way. Adding a few minimalist touches here and there doesn't mean you can charge an extra 200 bucks. I know I'm not going to convince you but we as hobbyists need to stop and think what we're really purchasing when we shell out hundreds and hundreds of dollars to happily gloat about all our ADA stickers on our stuff.

But, I'm afraid that this is going to come down to an apple v. pc debate so I'll just stop trying to convince anyone. But seriously, it's just a hunk of metal. There's nothing special I see about it other than the fact it will match your other ADA decor. And yes, I do own ADA items and I couldn't be happier with my 60P but honestly, 500 bucks for a steel can is 10 steps too far.


----------



## niko

Just like finding a cheap way to make a Lily pipe can cost you $20 the stainless steel bucket is not a problem either.

Go to a place that makes stainless steel items for the restaurant industry. In some cities Asians have taken over this kind of work. Meaning they do it cheap. They can make you any shape out of stainless steel. A canister? Easy! A hood for your lights? Easy! A whole freaking ADA-style aquarium stand out of stainless steel - they can do that, no problem. It's going to cost you very little.

Looking forward to see a post that describes how some genius followed my advice and is bragging about his new stainless steel canister with hoses from Home Depot and a local artisan made him a Lily Pipe that looks like a marijuana bong... Which by the way has been done already by cheerful glass blowing reef folk. And it is U.G.L.Y. Reason to be colored - "it does not show the algae build up". Honestly! You can't argue with stupid.










I think that what we are talking about here is not really a valid argument. I'm glad that it's not turning into the usual situation in which because of the way I say things I have to come up with a clever way to make someone see their own stupidity. What we really need to understand is how the Japanese think. The Japanese culture. I've heard interesting things about them from foilk that have lived in Japan. Our perception of value is VERY different than theirs. I think that's what perplexes us when we look at the simplicity of the ADA design and the obvious theft of good old working ideas (Ehiem canisters is only 1 example).

I guess historically people have always stolen the ideas of others. I recently learned that Maria Montessori, the lady that started all these posh special schools for people that can afford to send their kids there basically stole the ideas from a communist psychologist that happen to also die early. Another psychologist's ideas were also "incorporated" in the Montessori Method. When you see a Montesoori school remember ADA and this Spanish CADE company. As I said - revamping old ideas is something that people have always done. In the case of ADA one needs to know more about the Japanese culture before judging them too harshly. To most folk in the US a lot of the products that ADA offers makes little sense and we naturally look for a negative explanation of what we perceive as making no sense.

--Nikolay


----------



## Jeffww

niko said:


> Just like finding a cheap way to make a Lily pipe can cost you $20 the stainless steel bucket is not a problem either.
> 
> Go to a place that makes stainless steel items for the restaurant industry. In some cities Asians have taken over this kind of work. Meaning they do it cheap. They can make you any shape out of stainless steel. A canister? Easy! A hood for your lights? Easy! A whole freaking ADA-style aquarium stand out of stainless steel - they can do that, no problem. It's going to cost you very little.
> 
> Looking forward to see a post that describes how some genius followed my advice and is bragging about his new stainless steel canister with hoses from Home Depot and a local artisan made him a Lily Pipe that looks like a marijuana bong...
> 
> --Nikolay


EDIT: Okay I take that first sentence back. Name calling isn't right. Sorry.
Ahahaha, you realize I'm chinese right? Thanks for being a racist arse. Anyways, there are several issues with that idea. What I'm saying isn't that you can make one yourself but big manufacturers like ADA and CalAqua and all those chinese makers like Mr.Aqua can do these things for a lot cheaper but they aren't. Why? Because people aren't looking for cheaper alternatives. They're living off their reputation, not the actual efficacy of their equipment.

And I don't know about you, but all the lab glass blowers I know do top knotch work. You try to find someone that can make more perfectly spaced loops than a man who spends his time making precision instruments for labs in the form of distillers.

edit: Take this for example-

http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10568/22-302-20

oh look! A piece of lab grade borosilicate that's been hand blown. Wait! What does that look like to you?

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=2_15&products_id=155

No way!

Or maybe even.... http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10568/10-302-13

and then http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=2_15&products_id=8 
This just basically a broken condenser tube! I don't get why we're paying such a premium for this stuff.

Now do you get my drift?


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Niko, do you have a superjet personally?

As for the similar costs... sorry but that is inaccurate. Not everyone will use an Iwaki pump. I would likely use a pump that costs about $50. I don't need the best of the best. The Superjet doesn't even come with valves so all you need is some hose and clamps, and we don't know if the knock-off will come with them or not. 


I'm sorry I don't have a grand for the ES-1200... The good one, the one that pushes about 300 GPH. The ES-600 is only strong enough for a ten gallon aquarium if you want 10X flow.

Also, you said that this company is the Spanish company CADE. You are wrong. CADE is another asian company that makes another knock-off filter. In asia and Australia it is considered a competitor to ADA.

Jeff, actually all of the ADA stuff is based on lab glasswate.. like the beetle bubble counter, the diffusers, the softenizer (now that's exxpensive!) etc. They are all very high quality though, and worth the price in my opinion.


----------



## niko

Do I have a Bugatti Veyron, Pill?

No.

For one reason. Common to most folk in most life situations requiring money.

But let me remind you - in another thread I hinted that I have a plan for a canister that is everything that ADA's is except the price is way low. Everything you see on it is industrial quality. Size - whatever you want it to be. Good deal I know how people in this hobby think and I will not be surprised when they make "better choices" most of the time.

--Nikolay


----------



## JustLikeAPill

No, I don't, but I am not calling every other car that isn't a Bugatti a cheap, low class POS, either. 

So your canister filter you are coming out with... is it stainless steel? If so, why are you putting this alternative canister down so much? 

The impression you are giving is that any filter that isn't ADA is cheap crap. That anyone who would buy a stainless steel canister that isn't a superjet is cheap, low class, etc. 

So you DO see how not everyone can afford $500 to $1,000 for a canster filter... so what seperates YOUR knock-off (it is clearly a knock-off since you said it is everything that ADA's filter is but a lot cheaper...) from this one?

Where do you get off putting down a knock-off and worse, putting down the people who would buy a steel knock-off filter when you are making knock-offs yourself and ripping off ADA's ideas just like this one?


----------



## Jeffww

JustLikeAPill said:


> Niko, do you have a superjet personally?
> 
> As for the similar costs... sorry but that is inaccurate. Not everyone will use an Iwaki pump. I would likely use a pump that costs about $50. I don't need the best of the best. The Superjet doesn't even come with valves so all you need is some hose and clamps, and we don't know if the knock-off will come with them or not.
> 
> I'm sorry I don't have a grand for the ES-1200... The good one, the one that pushes about 300 GPH. The ES-600 is only strong enough for a ten gallon aquarium if you want 10X flow.
> 
> Also, you said that this company is the Spanish company CADE. You are wrong. CADE is another asian company that makes another knock-off filter. In asia and Australia it is considered a competitor to ADA.
> 
> Jeff, actually all of the ADA stuff is based on lab glasswate.. like the beetle bubble counter, the diffusers, the softenizer (now that's exxpensive!) etc. They are all very high quality though, and worth the price in my opinion.


They're obviously over charging though. This stuff is cheap. Borosilicate is one of the easiest glasses to work too. You can bend it with just a table top alcohol lamp. I mean when you charge 50 dollars for a 5 dollar piece of glass and a 2 dollar ceramic disc what does that say about the company itself? What does that say about the people who buy it?

Sure it's all "lab grade" but I'm wondering if that really should add any worth to the object. It's not like we're pumping acid through the glass anyways. It doesn't need to be lab grade. It's just a marketing campaign. Using BS glass is only making life easier for _them_ or rather their glass blowers. I don't get the hubbub about ADA glass.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

ADA uses Pyrex brand glass for their pipes at least (isn't mentioned in the other instructions for my other glassware) and not generic borosilicate glass. The glass they use is really thick compared to "generic" stuff you can get off of ebay... I have knocked my pipes and other glassware a lot and it is all just fine. I have broken "generic" diffuser and pipes just by cleaning them or trying to put the hose on, however. 

If you've ever used the glassware you can easily tell how much higher quality it is over "generic" glassware. It's thick, heavy, and well made. The diffuser discs diffuse evenly compared to "generic" diffusers, the glass isn't thin or wavy like generic stuff... overall it's just very high quality and worth the money in my opinion. 

We do not know how much ADA pays for the raw materials to make their stuff, but a lot of the cost is shipping costs from Japan to the US. They have to pay their craftsmen as well, and then the U.S. distributor has to make a profit as well.


----------



## Jeffww

JustLikeAPill said:


> ADA uses Pyrex brand glass for their pipes at least (isn't mentioned in the other instructions for my other glassware) and not generic borosilicate glass. The glass they use is really thick compared to "generic" stuff you can get off of ebay... I have knocked my pipes and other glassware a lot and it is all just fine. I have broken "generic" diffuser and pipes just by cleaning them or trying to put the hose on, however.
> 
> If you've ever used the glassware you can easily tell how much higher quality it is over "generic" glassware. It's thick, heavy, and well made. The diffuser discs diffuse evenly compared to "generic" diffusers, the glass isn't thin or wavy like generic stuff... overall it's just very high quality and worth the money in my opinion.
> 
> We do not know how much ADA pays for the raw materials to make their stuff, but a lot of the cost is shipping costs from Japan to the US. They have to pay their craftsmen as well, and then the U.S. distributor has to make a profit as well.


Pyrex is slightly more understandable. It's a tough glass. My graduated cylinders that I "borrowed"for dosing are made of the stuff and they can even stand being dropped. But even then a pyrex graduated cylinder is only about 5 bucks. It doesn't warrant the expense...Now as for distribution. Maybe. I can see that as a legitimate reason but: 
http://www.adana.co.jp/jp/products/na_co2/pollen_glass/

Which is 62 of our dollars.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

ADG is selling those for $58 bucks ; P Cheaper than ADA!


----------



## Jeffww

JustLikeAPill said:


> ADG is selling those for $58 bucks ; P Cheaper than ADA!


Precisely. Which lends me to believe they're only charging as much as we're willing to pay. We cheap americans and our relatively cheap living costs compared to the expenses in japan probably wouldn't be willing to pay as much for what can be considered a luxury item as the japanese are. Also, I'm kinda curious because when I say pyrex I think of that unbreakable stuff... But I was just talking to a mate and she said pyrex was the same as bs glass. Hmmm.


----------



## niko

Because Pill, if I ever put my canister filter on the market I can't sell it for a lot of money. As simple as that.

Asian Kid, about me being racist:
If you care - read my posts more carefully. What you saw in them is a product of your imagination. So far you present great arguments. But the second you think I'm writing this now to lie and avoid confrontation you will instantly qualify as "stupid". In my posts there was not a drop of anymosity. And there isn't any now either.

Trust me - if I meant to insult you I'd have done it very clearly. If this thread gets locked it will be because of what you nonchalantly wrote above. It means nothing to me but them APC moderators are not gonna like it.

--Nikolay


----------



## lipadj46

Jeffww said:


> Precisely. Which lends me to believe they're only charging as much as we're willing to pay. We cheap americans and our relatively cheap living costs compared to the expenses in japan probably wouldn't be willing to pay as much for what can be considered a luxury item as the japanese are. Also, I'm kinda curious because when I say pyrex I think of that unbreakable stuff... But I was just talking to a mate and she said pyrex was the same as bs glass. Hmmm.


yes pyrex lab glassware is borosiliate glass.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Niko is not being racist, lets not open up that can of worms. 


So Niko, you never really answered my question. If you are also making a knock-off, why are you putting this one down? If yours is a stainless steel filter, how is it any different than this one other than being cheaper? 


I don't see why you dislike stainless steel knock offs so much when you are about to be selling your own knock off stainless steel filter?

Is it that you think they are overcharging for a knock off and it should be cheaper?


About the glassware.. I went to the Pyrex website and a lot of the stuff there implies that Pyrex used to be borosilicate but is now soda-lime glass which is supposed to be stronger. Maybe some things are soda-lime and some are borosilicate.


----------



## niko

Pill,

I have no issue with saying that my filter is "everything that ADA's filter is". Because I mean performance.

As far as looks are concerned I'm not going for an ADA look alike. You can't say that about certain descendants of the Barber of Seville, Spain.


How my filter differs from ADA/Eheim:
- No red O-ring
- No clips to close the lid
- No matching overall look (size, proportions, colors)
- No stainless steel
- No semi transparent canister
- Lid will not look like ADA's plate
- 2 pipes on top of lid
- Both hose connections incorporated in lid

Similarities:
- Watertight container
- Outflow pipe on top of lid

I'd have avoided those too but then it will not be a canister filter at all. That's the simplest and most functional design.

Here's the funny part:
ADA copied Eheim. The 2 filters look alike. Mine will look remotely like... whose filter?

--Nikolay


----------



## Jeffww

niko said:


> Because Pill, if I ever put my canister filter on the market I can't sell it for a lot of money. As simple as that.
> 
> Asian Kid, about me being racist:
> If you care - read my posts more carefully. What you saw in them is a product of your imagination. So far you present great arguments. But the second you think I'm writing this now to lie and avoid confrontation you will instantly qualify as "stupid". In my posts there was not a drop of anymosity. And there isn't any now either.
> 
> Trust me - if I meant to insult you I'd have done it very clearly. If this thread gets locked it will be because of what you nonchalantly wrote above. It means nothing to me but them APC moderators are not gonna like it.
> 
> --Nikolay


I realized I was being melodramatic and apologized. The first comment seemed to imply that we as asians are taking over manufacturing and purposefully pump out lower grade stuff. After rereading it 5+ times I realized I was at fault.

Now as to why knock offs are bad I guess we both hold our own reservations. I personally like ADA tanks, they're noticeably (though barely) higher quality than other rimless brands. But their equipment on the other hand is just wildly priced.


----------



## niko

Pill,

I said it already. We are discussing Japanese culture and tradition. I firmly believe that if you buy an ADA canister you are not getting ripped off. 

Yes, the thing is crazy expensive. 
Yes, it is a metal bucket like these small size bathroom trash cans, stanless steel, $30 at the Container Store.
Yes, ADA copied Eheim. 
Yes, I don't believe they have a precise calculation that matches exactly SuperJet Whatever with certain tanks
Yes, the ADA filters seem to barely move water

But what you are buying is the confidence that every little detail is as perfect as it can be made to be. And that the entire system will not only work well if you understand its basic principles but will also look like a million bucks every second of it.

In a way we are talking about putting a value on trust. Paying more for something you believe was made well. Belief, trust, perception... We are used to be tricked a little too often. And here comes the Spanish gang ready to make a buck out of of all this. And we jump all over the cheap prices. That's how I see it. 


--Nikolay


----------



## JustLikeAPill

As long as you admitted the above, I am happy. I agree with you on all counts. 

And do you know what? I want a Superjet. I really do, despite the low flow and high price. Once day I WILL have one. But in the mean time it would be nice to have a knock off that looks similar but is cheaper.


----------



## Jeffww

I'm pretty confident that any company that's popular and capable of turning a profit when up against austere competition such as the name of ADA has the capability to put out decent merchandise. I mean, it's just the metal can too. Not even the pump on which you can splurge on. If it's water tight it's functional in this case.

Oh well. And who knows. This might not even be a knock off. We don't even of _pictures_ or specs on it. I mean a modular canister is already a good idea.


----------



## niko

Here, in this thread, I attack the rip off company.

And here I approve and inspire:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/journals/69614-new-225l-cade-setup-4.html#post597277

You got to admit on a picture the equipment does look very good. As good as ADA that is.

--Nikolay


----------



## lipadj46

So are we saying knockoffs are OK because the ADA filters are eheim knockoffs?


----------



## JustLikeAPill

If a knock-off is far better than the original (like how the Superjet is made of far better materials than the Eheim Classics) is it still considered a knock-off? That is the question.

Since the Superjets are far superior to Eheim Classics (well.. maybe not as far as flow is concerned. Those pumps may be high quality but 100 gph is a joke!) I would not consider them knock-offs. 

I would consider something a knock-off if it is a rip-off of the design of another product but is of much lower quality... if it is of equal or greater quality I wouldn't consider something a knock-off.


----------



## niko

A little play on words here, just for fun:

Say Pill starts to make his own canister. Calls it "PuperJet". It's superior to ADA SuperJet.

According to his own definition of what is a knock-off product he just tricked ADA into producing a knock-off of PuperJet! 

And he can always say that "ADA has been making a knock-off of my filter for more than a decade now. Even before PuperJet existed."!

--Nikolay


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Well, if my Puperjet was truly superior to the Superjet (maybe made of silver! Better pump, more media, some sort of Plocher device added, and media baskets and a computer monitoring system!!!) then I wouldn't consider the Puperjet to be a knock-off, but a competitor.


----------



## lanceduffy

Wow, I can't believe I just read all of this crap.

Pill, thanks for trying to keep us informed.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Thanks! That's all I was trying to do....


----------



## JustLikeAPill

For those interested, YES they will ship to America once it's released and they will let me know. I will update this post if I hear anything.


----------



## wwh2694

ADA is ADA you get what you pay for. As far as filter goes I have seen how this filter runs. The flow is massive and creates this vortex that i have never seen before you wouldnt need anymore circulation pump with it. If you have a chance to go to ADG at Houston Texas, you will see their very nice creations. Frank and everybody there are very friendly and helpfull.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

I only do business with ADG for my ADA needs. Frank is great! And their tanks are awesome... but the ES series is a joke when it comes to flow. The construction is beautiful and superb and the pump is of amazing quality, but the pump on the ES series is weak. Sorry. 

I have almost all ADA equipment (except for the filter) so I know the quality of ADA. And I am not a cheap person, but the fact is that the ES-600 is a very nice filter but the flow is 100 gallons per hour. That is a joke. It costs over $500. The ES-1200 pushes over 300 GPH which is very respectable but it costs over a grand. If the ES-600 ran an extra 100 gallons per hour I wouldn't be complaining.

100 gallons per hour is not massive flow by any stretch of the imagination. I would not personally use that filter on anything larger than ten gallons. The filter(s) you saw must have been the ES-1200 or ES-2400 series. 

This is simply an alternative for those of us who do not have an extra grand laying around and who would like the second-best stainless steel filter on the market. That is all. 194 Euro is over $200 (before shipping) so you are right... I do think you get what you pay for and for a $200 steel canister without a pump (you can pick you own pump! Stronger than that wimpy Iwaki pump on the ES-600!) I don't think this option is a cheap POS. If it was $50 or even $100, I would think it's crap. 

But I have said that all already. If you want to spend a grand, go for it.


----------



## wwh2694

Yup thats the only thing im missing on my 120H tank an im thinking of getting one. But the flow of this stuff is like double of whats really writen. U got to see it to belive it. I have a 2180 and it could hardly create that vortex on the lily pipe. I even have to buy a koraila pump to move my water around good. I know its expensive but you got what u pay for.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Yeah... Unless it's written as double on the pump I'm afraid I don't believe that, or at the very least a flow meter said it was running at double the listed rate. A 100 gph pump (technically less, I'm rounding up!) isn't going to push 200 gallons per hour. A nice vortex doesn't equate double pump output than what is listed. 

Believe me, if it pumped twice what it is rated it, ADA would list it as such and then people like me wouldn't be criticizing it. Even if you spent a grand on the ES-1200 filter, it is still weak for that sized tank in my opinion. The ES-2400 would be a better choice since it is around 500 GPH or so, but what do those cost? Two thousand dollars? I haven't ever seen one for sale but if the ES-1200 is one grand, it stands to reason that the ES-2400 would be double that.


----------



## cath0de

I think the es2400 is only around 400gph. The 2400-ex2 has a 12gal capacity. It's almost 3 feet tall. Just think about those numbers for a second. I'm pretty sure (ie. ada has great marketing) that ada knows how to make a filter that works. A lot of people have told me that canisters are all about flow but then I look at my eheim from well over 20 years ago. It only does 6L/min with media and I think it was designed for a 15-20 gal. There is more than one theory about how to build a canister and ada is definitely letting the bacteria get to know the water in the canister. Btw, that old eheim is still running strong.


----------



## wwh2694

Well I still like my eheim 2180. I can clean the lilly pipes without turning the filter off . Anyways if I can find a stainless steal filter out there other that the one you find i will let you know. You I would like to save some money too.


----------



## bsmith

I was wondering if the 100gph listing for the es-600 was the actual amount of water that it flowed. Not the trumped up advertisement of say a Rena or an FX. 

I am a firm believer in the quality of ADA (and other higher quality manufacturers like CalAqua). I have a couple ADA tanks and they are beautifully made. I also own some CalAqua glass ware and can unequivocally tell you that it is made with at least 5x's the amount or material as one of the eBay 'knock offs'.

PS-And yes the Super Jets are just knock off Eheim Classics with an Iwaki pump.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

I totally agree... It took me replacing too many knock off pipes, bubble counters and diffusers before I started buying ADA. I even broke a diffuser just by putting on the co2 tubing! It is all I will use now, but almost $600 for a filter is hard for a college student when you just want something pretty.

By the way this company looks, it looks like a high quality version of everything they sell... Softenizers, lights, and filter (no pics yet but I am assuming it looks high quality) and not cheap crap, especially when you consider it isn't cheap to start with, just cheaper.

I am an Ada fanboy, and I admit that, but I also can admit the flaws in some of their products like flow, etc. Even if 100 gph is the actual flow, my eheim 2262 gets 120. 

One day when I have the funds I will own a superjet. I promise that! But in the meantime, just for something that looks pretty, this is a more attractive option for me until college is over.

Or until I quit smoking and use the money I'd waste on cigarettes to buy the superjet ; P


----------



## bsmith

Ill still never buy a Super Jet but I will find the money for the ADA equipment I deem worth it.


----------



## JustLikeAPill

Yeah, you bring up a point that has been mentioned before. It's just not worth it. It's an eheim classic in design although with much better pump and materials.

But I want one just because its sexy, you know? No point in having an all Ada setup when you have a green filter below. No room for a stand in my case to hide things.

But to be fair, if you subtract the cost of the six liters of filter media included, and the cost of the lily pipes included, it is much more affordable. But you can't buy JUST the filter if you already have media and pipes, sadly..


----------



## bsmith

Then that is something you deem worth it. The argument I have seen in this thread has been over what one person deems worth it or not. in the end thats not an argument because its completely dependent on that person.

Its like you saying that blue is your favorite color and I say no its not its black!


----------



## bubbleboy

There is no doubt the ADA stuff is great but there comes to a point of it having too much functional obsolescence. Meaning, a solid gold faucet is not going to do a better job of controlling water flow than a brass one. It just looks better. Gold plate a brass faucet and you would not be able to tell the difference.

What ADA has really succeeded with is good marketing and styling that has allowed them to obtain high margins for their products and that is why they are being copied.

In my mind stainless steel filters are really not very piratical because lower grades of stainless still rust and it is also a conductor. Get some current leak from a faulty pump and you really speed up the electrolysis problems that will destroy whatever metal is least noble in the system. That disolved metal goes into the water and can be really dreadful to a shrimp tank...

My two cents..


----------



## TAB

actually, sold gold will work much better then brass since it won't oxidize.( AKA rust, where brass will)


----------



## Nica

Hell it toke a while but it is out.

NATURAL AQUARIO published on their website the POWER FILTER, a stainless steel filter with the PAN WORLD PUMP NH-30PX water pump.

Comparing with ADA ES-1200, NA is a higher 610mm, while ADA is 510mm, so it has got more capacity.

But ADA iwaki pump give 1l/min more than NA PAN WORLD PUMP NH-30PX.

As far i can see on their website NA will cost 429,71 € plus tax.

check out: http://na-un.com/?product=power-filter

http://na-un.com/?portfolio=power-filter

Finally we got some other choice to buy.


----------



## Yo-han

I found this brand a week ago, really nice! Off course you can find some similarities with ADA if you try real hard. Wondering about copyright/patent.


----------



## Nica

Yo-han said:


> Off course you can find some similarities with ADA if you try real hard. Wondering about copyright/patent.


well i tried real hard and i cant find any, besides is made out of stainless steel, and it has a round shame, with a pump on the top.

Do you want me to mention all the filter brands that are round shape with a pump on the top?

Wondering if ADA payed some copyright/patent to EHeim as well.

I think is clear that they didn't want to copy ADA filter and tried to sell as being an original ADA.


----------



## Yo-han

I'm not just mentioning the filter, but the lighting system, the cabinet/stand, the whole line all reminds me of ADA (off course, only if your really search for similarities). I know it's not copyright in the sense of exact replica, but Samsung needed to change their tablet layout as well for too much similarities with the Ipad.

Besides that, I love the brands appearance and would love to own one, I'm not brand bound, don't get me wrong! And I guess it will be much easier available (cheaper) in the Netherlands compared to ADA. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Nica

Yo-han said:


> I know it's not copyright in the sense of exact replica, but Samsung needed to change their tablet layout as well for too much similarities with the Ipad.


Well in my opinion NA difference on ADA are much more than SAMSUNG on APPLE. And i think this competition makes sense because i think they are a good sample. I own ADA gear and NA gear, and to be honest with you NA gear price is lower, and beside the band name and marking, NA products are better in many aspects than ADA.

Sizes, shape, functionalities, design, they are much different.

In the end ADA and NA are the best as far as i see and test. I will try to buy some more NA gear and ADA gear to compare.

OH, I dont own a NA filter, so i didn't test it yet.


----------



## TAB

I don't care for the way they mounted the pump,(ugly and not efficient, or strong) but other wise it looks good.


----------

