# D.I.Y. Substrates



## panaque (Jan 21, 2004)

O.k., I have to admit I have been more of an out of the bag hobbyist when it comes to substrates. I usually used congarock and my current tank is the first one I have actually used an enriched substrate in. I usually just went with a root tab or two and only kept a sword or a bit of hygro. 
Boy have I learned a lot since then! I currently use eco complete mixed with flourite and topped with some gravel I collected from a local river. The gravel is just because I like the look of it.
So my question for you felow hobbyist is what do you use to make your substrate the perfect one for growing the best plants around.


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## panaque (Jan 21, 2004)

*bump*


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## ginnie5 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Well...*

I am first and foremost..cheap! So paying $20 for a bag of substrate is not something I will do if there's any way around it. When I set up the 75 I really wanted a black substrate till I added up how much it was going to cost me. The only local place here that had it was $26 a bag. So I went with pool filter sand instead with a layer of kitty litter underneath. I know the horror stories of it. But until the last month I have not even had to add anything to my substrate at all. I had 3 BIG swords in there and to get 2 of them out I had to cut roots like you would not believe. Everything root in this stuff. The tank has been up and running for a year with no problems. Irecently added some river gravel I collected just for the heck of it and I love it! I have a 10g set up with peat underneath the sand and so far it is doing well. Not as fast an amount of growth as the kitty litter tank but not bad either.


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

For my 125 and 75 gallon tanks I purchased 4 bags of topsoil for about $10, three bags of Sackcrete sand for about $9 and three 100# bags of texgrit gravel for about $5/bag. I mixed the sand soil 50/50 because the soil alone seems to be too soft (mushy) when wet.

Even though this substrate is more for a low tech tank, I am using 3 Watts per gallon, CO2 injection, and heavy water column fertilization. I figure the soil will give micronutrients to the roots as an added benefit.

So it came to about $34 for the substrate for 200 gallons of tanks.

Steve Pituch


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Yeah, it's really not necessary to spend all kinds of money on substrate. IMO, the perfect substrate needs 3 things: appropriate depth, source of nutrients, some kind of organic matter/activator.

I listed them in order of importance. Organic matter will eventually accumulate in the substrate via mulm and other bacteria sludge (scientific, huh?) and the nutrient store will occur without help via absorption/adsorbtion into the mulm, etc through your water column additions. It's not the end of the world if you don't add those things initially, but...

I still prefer to add those things to a new set-up-- at least I do now. Getting a tank through the first 6-8 weeks is critical, IME.

I've got enough stuff laying around to make hundreds of pounds of potent substrate. All I need is the filler/cap which is REALLY cheap. If I didn't have what I do, I could easily create 400lbs of potent substrate for much less than $100-- Maybe as little as $50. 400lbs of Eco-Complete would cost me $400. Yuck. 

Anyway-- HTH...


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## sjogren1 (Feb 23, 2004)

Used to use sand or gravel and no ferts. Also no success. Now use 80% Eco-Complete with 20% Onyx Sand and a few Flourish Tabs by the Crypts. Plan to try other materials, like Turface with substrate additives like maybe Leonardite or Barley Straw Pellets or Peat. The jury's still out. Previously wanted to do Duplarit with plain gravel, but never got around to it.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Use laterite, some Terralit(trace elements), and top soil/peat...then top with 2" of sand. Sand will also help reduce the fertility of the soil. And to reduce the risk of compaction, add lots of MTS. Read Tom's posts and Art's article, both are excellent sources for info...:wink:


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

MTS won't prevent compaction. They don't burrow deep enough. If you have plants in your tank and use a reasonable gravel/sand grain size, compaction will never be an issue. 

Terralit is just zeolite soaked in an iron/trace broth-- a waste of money. You could brew your own for pennies on the dollar.

If you use a top soil, than there is no need for peat, laterite or terralit, etc. All the organic matter and traces will be there already. It would be redundant and wasteful.


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Wouldn't they be needed if castings are used?


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## Wheeler (Feb 8, 2004)

Not neccesarily. Worm castings are soil or compost that have passed through the worm. They have all the properties of top-soil except more potent-- *slightly* more macros, but still not alot by any modern standard. They're little micro nutrient pellets with high CEC and a small amount of N and P. Laterite, or other iron heavy soil, would help by producing a long term source of micros. After the castings nutrient yield has begun to fade, their CEC characteristics will keep the iron soil going strong. 

Natural top-soils are mostly particulate minerals and organic matter anyhow. Worm castings are magnified soil. I have a link to some excellent info on them, but I'm short on time. More later...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i've had a successful planted tank using 1 inch of potting soil covered by 1 inch of gravel. but when i tore it down, it stunk so bad!!!


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

People have talked about turface black, which sounds interesting. I thought about adding peat, but I am worried about it getting in the water column. For my next tank (10 gallon, high light) I might try turface black, if I can find it, and seachem root tabs. I like the root tabs because they don't break apart. I might try putting them 2" apart compared to the recommended 4".


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Why waste time and have to do extra work with the root tabs and all when one bag of eco complete will do a 10 gallon. It s a bit pricier but for 25 bucks


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Actually I did something today not characteristic of me.... I set up a 20 gal tank with Shultz Aquatic Soil. I'm impressed, its nice stuff. I only needed 15 pounds of the stuff (I expected to use 40 pounds (2 pounds/gal)). The plants went into the gravel easily. It wasn't too light, and it held the plants well, and the color is pretty nifty.

I may use some more of it. Its a lot easier to use than soil.
Steve Pituch


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

I thought the seachem tabs contained much higher CEC than Eco-complete and other gravels,
http://www.aquabotanic.com/plantfer.htm
http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
I like the idea of heavy fertilization in the soil to add to your water column fertilization.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> People have talked about turface black, which sounds interesting. I thought about adding peat, but I am worried about it getting in the water column. For my next tank (10 gallon, high light) I might try turface black, if I can find it, and seachem root tabs. I like the root tabs because they don't break apart. I might try putting them 2" apart compared to the recommended 4".


IU, broham, let me know when you find that turface black, I wanna get in on the action, been searching with no luck, are you going to mix it with diamond black too?

if you add peat, don't add too much, and put it on the very bottom and you're good to go...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> I thought the seachem tabs contained much higher CEC than Eco-complete and other gravels,
> http://www.aquabotanic.com/plantfer.htm
> http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
> I like the idea of heavy fertilization in the soil to add to your water column fertilization.


it's continuous information like this that constantly affirms my belief that all you need is inert sand or gravel and supplement with root tabs and you can have a lush lush tank without the flourite or eco


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

I don't know about the diamond black, I have to look into it. I need to ask Eric if it stays together like the root tabs do. I uproot to many plants to mess with soil additives that could mess up my clear water. :lol: I am looking, so I will let you know if I find anything.

http://www.profileproducts.com/turface/tfp_1.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/profile.html#6


> <Hi. Does anyone know of a source of turface in the greater Seattle
> area? I'd order it online but the shipping charges are nuts.
> Thanks, Laurel>
> 
> ...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

another interesting diy substrate i've come across is the use of zeolite... I'm looking around to find more info on it...


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

I used leonardite ore (lignite) rather than the brand name diamond black, and it is a very fine black powder.


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

I don't know much about zeolite. I've seen turface black at Erik's open house and really liked how it looked. It looked like a black flourite.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

Mr. Leung has turface black? oh wow! We should ask him where he got it from! He's in SF so wherever we must go should be nearby...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

grrrrr...i spent the better part of my morning calling profile..... i keep getting their answering machine.... 

oh well, it's okay, i know eventually we'll find it..


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## skids (Mar 23, 2004)

*Turface in SF area sold in Cambell (San Jose)*

I just setup a 75 long tank after attending an SFBAAPS Open House at Erik's and reading much here, on APD and talking with SFBAAPS folks like Scott, Erik, Jim and Tom Barr. My synthesis of all that led me to a quest to majorly over do a simple subject.

If you wish to buy Profile (manufacturer of Turface and Aquatic Plant Soil) products in the Bay Area the only choice is to drive down to:

Sierra Pacific Turf Supply 
510 Salmar Ave, Campbell, CA 95008 
Phone:	(408) 374-4700 they close at 5 PM.

expect to pay $9.25 for 50 lbs of Turface ProLeague (not Turface MVP... see below). This is about 1/5 the price of Aquatic PLant Soil from Home Depot.

They are off the CA-17 right next to Fry's on the Hamilton Ave exit.

If you live in NorCal they have another store in Rocklin (where the 49ers Spring Trng Camp is at) which carries it.

3 weeks ago, I spoke to Bill Fenn, Profile's West Coast Sales Rep and he said they are the sole SF area distributor at this time. I turned over all this contact info I collected to the manager of Acapulco Soil Supply in Richmond who wants to carry it and hopefully will soon. As it would turn out, he had just had a request from Richmond Parks and Rec Dept who wanted a lot of Turface but he didn't know where it came from. This will be a much closer drive for North Bay and maybe SF folks once they have it. If you live out of town (Seattle) call Bill or appropriate rep as indicated on their sales region map at and ask where your local retailer is.

http://www.profileproducts.com/contactus_region_turface.html

Look at 
http://www.profileproducts.com/turface/tfp_1.html

to get an idea of the grain sizes involved. I used 50 lbs of Profile Aquatic Plant Soil on the bottom with 10 lbs of worm castings and 12 Tablespoons pyrosol and 6 table spoons of Diamond Black. Then I added 50lbs of Turface ProLeague in grey above that. It cost about $85 in all. This was overkill. And the worm castings have a lot of crushed egg shells which are now slowly releasing CaCo3 and increasing my water hardness to 10 - 11 kH unless I change 50% water every few days. Then it drops to around 5 and starts increasing again. My pH is also higher than I wish at 7.0- 7.4 . Co2 turned way up lowers it back to 7.0. It's slowing down but has been too much work for the reward. My friend in San Diego owns a worm farm and raises his worms on horse and cow patties. the Black Gold Brand Worm castings I got at Ace hardware appeared to be raised on Chicken Coop waste or the egg shells were tossed in to increase aeration and increase alkalinity of the compost to keep worms happy. I also did not boil the castings and as such my nitrites are around 5 ppm all the time now 4 weeks into setup due to organic decay.

If I had to do it over again, I would have done Tom's simpler suggestion of several handfuls of Mulm on bottom, a few hand fulls of boiled coarse peat from a nursery and then 75 lbs of rinsed Turface Proleague and spent only about $12 total.

You need to rinse Turface 5 times or so to get dust out just like you would with Flourite. Then let it sit under water a few hours or O/N so the air works out of all it's pores.

One could do Turface MVP below and Proleague to cap or You may choose to cap with onyx sand or #3 blasting grit (from a building supply ask for all quartz only) over Turface as Erik did which would also be good.

General FYI on Profile, Turface and APS:

Note that all three products are the same thing just finer grades of same Profile
Product. In terms of coarseness there is APS> Turface MVP > Turface ProLeague >
Turface Clay Soil Conditioner the last of which is the size of sand
grains and is for golf course bunkers. APS is sort of adobe reddish brown, looks like many Asian muddy bottom rivers, Turface comes in Traditional , Red and Gray. Not sure where the "Black" moniker came from. Here is a photo of my tank to show what grey looks like:

notice color and grain size or ProLeague Gray and APS underneath, also notice full size adult SAE compared to younger SAE both from Guy at Albany Aquarium.


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## skids (Mar 23, 2004)

photo....


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

Very nice post, you answered most of my questions about this line of products. I use APS in all but one of my tanks. After calling Profile, I found there is not a distributor within several hours of me, so the gray Turface that I wanted to use is not going to happen for me.

If I ever see it around, though, it's gonna be mine.


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## skids (Mar 23, 2004)

So, now that you spoke to Profile's sales people pass the info on to your local soil and turf supplier. Odds are good they will carry it not for aquarists per se (but do make a story about the hundreds of local plant enthusiasts) but becuase it is the top baseball infield material and quickly getting popular in golf courses and other athletic fields. I was completely surprised to find Acapulco was so happy I called. They were trying to track it down but didn't know how. He said it would be simple for him to get a pallet in even just to evaluate it and let me buy a few bags.

On the benefits side, I should point out that within 2 weeks the 20 or so small Cryptocoryne willisii I planted firmly dug into it. I pulled a few to rearrange and couldn't believe how they affixed so tightly to the pores in this susbtrate. L numularia and Micranthemum umbrosum are also growing fast ... some have doubled and tripled in length in 4 weeks.


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

I will definitely see if I can get one of the local suppliers to stock it. I already was interested in it. Hearing that crypts like it was like the icing.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

aquaverde said:


> I will definitely see if I can get one of the local suppliers to stock it. I already was interested in it. Hearing that crypts like it was like the icing.


Yo James, if you read through the whole profile website like i did,..omg....it sounds like the perfect material for growing stuff, both terrestrial and aquatic...


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

Would using FoxFarm's Plant Mix boiled and diluted with sand, be ideal..or am I asking for trouble?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

i would call that dancing with the devil


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## aquaverde (Feb 9, 2004)

Well, as the web site says, "Mix earthworm castings, chicken and bat guano, some aged mushroom compost, cocoa bean hulls - and blammo!"

Sounds like a bomb, no?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

Raul, do you have turface in your area? you should give it a try. I'm headed down to Sierra Pacific Turf Supply...

Since I'm near a place that offers it....I was thinking that if anyone wants, I could ship it over to them if they just cover cost of package and shipping... I dunno if that will be too expensive..but I wanted to throw that out there for anyone who is desperate for turface gray.


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## SCMurphy (Jan 28, 2004)

aquaverde said:


> Well, as the web site says, "Mix earthworm castings, chicken and bat guano, some aged mushroom compost, cocoa bean hulls - and blammo!"
> 
> Sounds like a bomb, no?


I think he should try it and let the rest of us know what happened. :twisted:


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

I have another idea for a DIY Substrate. Get yourself a bunch of bricks...and smash them into small flourite-like pieces and you have cheap substrate right there.. it is red so that should have lots of iron. and you know it won't break down in the water cuz it's been baked at high temperatures =)


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

I think aluminum is red also and clay can have a lot of aluminum and little iron. Not that it would be harmful. I think D. Walstad says that aluminum is not toxic between pHs of 6.0 and 8.0.

Steve Pituch


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## Gomer (Feb 2, 2004)

spituch said:


> I think aluminum is red also and clay can have a lot of aluminum and little iron. Not that it would be harmful. I think D. Walstad says that aluminum is not toxic between pHs of 6.0 and 8.0.
> 
> Steve Pituch


Just a nitpick 

Aluminum is a metal and is silver. Aluminum oxide is whitish grey. There are some aluminum compounds that might be red. The red is most likely due to iron oxide which is redish

"Fired-clay bricks and pavers are manufactured from naturally occurring shale, fireclay or other argillaceous materials with or without sand, fuel or other additives and fired at a sufficiently high temperature to achieve a ceramic bond."

shale is pretty much a clay rock which mainly contains SiO2, Al2O3 and Fe2O3 and MgO.

You will find clay do be predominately SiO2 and Al2SO3. depending on the "clay base" you will have a wide range of Fe content. Some actually have a LARE Fe content

Here is a little reading info on various clays and their composition
http://cms.lanl.gov/chem.htm


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

so this as a substrate could work yea? 

it would definitely be a task to "make" it...but let's say you don't got a lot of money and you're livin in the projexx, then this is perfect for you.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Mar 29, 2004)

Well I got turface, boy, that stuff is extremely low in density....I mean, it's dense enough to sink down...but even the slightest flow and it gets blown into sand dunes....... i'm gonna have to put some natural river gravel over it...but am worried that the gravel will eventually sink to the bottom....


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## Steve Pituch (Jan 25, 2004)

Tony,

Thanks for the info on aluminum. I think my assumptions on the color are incorrect. There is a big alumina plant on the other side of the bay. All the soil there is gray clay but the 50 foot high piles of what I thought was Bauxite are deep red. I assumed the color was from the aluminum, but like you said, this is probably not the case.

Steve


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## iris600 (Feb 12, 2004)

I got my grubby little hands on five bags of turface... not that I need that much, but you never know (and you can't beat free). I am trying to set up an aquarium, ten gallon, utilizing this substrate. I would like to cap it with something more attractive (the reddish color I find less than pleasant). What are your suggestions, what else should I add, do I need a peat layer?
Please point me in the right direction


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## Raul-7 (Feb 4, 2004)

I recommend you add some peat and mulm from an established tank, then cap it with turface.


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