# Dumy Questoin #6: But how do they do it?



## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Ok, there have been 5 Dummy Questions now. It's time for a queston that's "in your face".

Not to worry, it will not hurt.

Here's some major eye candy. Below are some tanks from ADA's 2009 contest. I picked the ones that I personally like. Here:





































Nice, to say the least. More like mindblowing.

And here's my point :

Let's leave the aquascaping aside. No more blowing of minds. Just dry facts.

*All of those tanks (and many more) are being maintained in a way that's very different from what we here in the US do.*

Note that I'm not saying we don't know how. We are just doing things differently.

As I said before - we have the pieces, we just don't have the glue to put them together. Both big aquascaping forums - aquaticplantcentral.com and plantedtank.net do not provide such information. But we stay very active. Just look at my own post count - it approaches 2 000! Nice job!

So we do not have black-on-white information describing the inner works of ADA's planted tank system. What we usually see is "_Week 1:_ Add Activated Carbon, do not fertilize. _Week2:_ Add Amano shrimp, change water... _Week 3:_..." In other words the advice is at the level of: "Buy tank. Put gravel. Add water. Turn light on." That's where we are in our understanding. That's why we are bombarded with the same old questions for years now. And we don't have good answers. The people that know a lot get tired and leave the forums or stay marginally active. They can tell you a lot. But they are tired of the same old routine with "possible solutions".

Enough chit-chat!

*ADA's methods lead to a very stable and easy to maintain planted tank. You cannot achieve that level with any other approach. If you manage to do it you are doing something VERY close to what ADA has been doing already. You just don't realize it.*

Yes, that's right - "dry facts" as I said above. That was the "in your face" bit. "The anaesthetic will wear off in 2 hours. Call us if you have any pain..."

Now that I set myself up and said that I was not going to reveal any specific information I will have to ask for a favor. I can't ask the "knowledgeable Hobbyists" because they do not read my Dummy Questions series. But anybody that could help please do so:

*Please explain how exactly ADA does it:*

- Substrate
- Light
- CO2
- Fertilization
- Water changes
- Algae (how on earth are all those stones completely clean every time?)
- Filtration
- Water movement
- Temperature
- And all *the interactions* between them

Let's see if this thread will get over 50 hits. I like to think I'm realistic - I understand most of us are busy giving all sorts of planted tank advice so I don't expect us to have time for minor things.

--Nikolay


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

niko said:


> ADA's methods lead to a very stable and easy to maintain planted tank. You cannot achieve that level with any other approach. If you manage to do it you are doing something VERY close to what ADA has been doing already. You just don't realize it.


true up to a point. I think the Europeans that predate Amano would disagree. 
nature aquarium layout/style aside - hats off to Amano for successfully marketing some good and not so good products, taking great photos and inspiring the hobby in general. But he didn't invent low effort stability in an aquatic system. That would be a stretch.

note the absence of red in the chosen layouts. Beautiful as they are, farmers/collectors tire easily of green+rocks+wood. Not that ADA products cannot be used to maintain reds.. But I believe that the low-effort nature aquarium style owes a lot to plant choices -- as much as substrate and dosing regime.

I particularly like the third layout in your OP. Very nice.


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## longhornxtreme (Feb 20, 2007)

ADA uses a nutrient rich substrate that supplies the plants in the tank with pretty much all they need. However, it appears that the potassium source in the substrate becomes limiting, so ADA supplements it with their 'green brighty' steps of fertilization. (It also appears that the further along 'green brighty' steps also up the water column dosing as the substrate ages) 

ADA does not add fish at the beginning because the aquasoil is rich in nutrients, specifically compounds that quickly turn in to NH3. This is a blessing and a curse; it is a blessing because plants love to use NH3 and NO2 compunds for a nitrogen source, it is a curse because algae also likes to use these compounds. Thus, I propose that all of the daily water changes are to keep the ammonia compounds present in the water column, but only in small quantities that the plants themselves can use up at the expense of algae. 

As the tank ages over the first few weeks, the water changes combined with bacteria and plant growth results in the substrate leeching less and less nutrients into the water column. It reaches some sort of equilibrium where the bacterial colonies and the plants are able to remove all of the nutrients (including NH3) that leech into the water column. More importantly, the plant's root systems are now healthy and absorbing most nutrients from the substrate. However, since the principles of diffusion will apply, high nutrient concentrations (the soil) will tend to move to low nutrient concentrations (the water) so water changes are necessary to prevent the water from becoming too concentrated with leeched nutrients. 

Water changes appear to reset any excess nutrients that have leeched into the water column over the period since the last water change. This likely helps with keeping the water column lean, thus preventing nuisance algae. But note that I said lean and not barren. Something has to provide nutrients to the mosses in the tank. 

Thus, you now have a fertilization system that provides nutrients to the plants mainly through their roots, but still provides a small but naturally-controlled amount of water column fertilization. 

The main algae risk with the ADA system is those first few weeks to get the plants to develop their root systems faster than nuisance algae takes hold in the tank. 

Temperature is likely set at a level that promotes both plant growth, fish health, and the proper substrate equilibrium that I talked about earlier. 

CO2 and light provide the tank the ability for the plants to convert the nutrients in the soil into new growth.

Filtration exists for the system to remain at the equilbrium I talked about earlier. It provides mechanical filtration as well as a place for bacteria to live. It also provides water movement from it's loop. 

Water movement is necessary to keep the water column uniform. In other words, it equally distributes CO2, O2, the leeched nutrients, and any other water column ferts added to the system. 

Algae doesn't have a chance because the plants use up all the nutrients that leech into the water column, provided that your light, co2, temperature, and water changes are kept in good maintenance. 

Ok... I'm finished for now... but I think that briefly lays out the ADA 'secret': equilibrium. 

Go read about mineralized soil substrates and earthworm casting substrates. Easy way to do ADA style tanks without the expense of aquasoil.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

ashappard said:


> true up to a point. I think the Europeans that predate Amano would disagree.
> nature aquarium layout/style aside - hats off to Amano for successfully marketing some good and not so good products, taking great photos and inspiring the hobby in general. But he didn't invent low effort stability in an aquatic system. That would be a stretch....


Same goes for our own home-grown, half-baked and wildly popular EI and PPS-whatever.

I knew this Dummy Question will lead us somewhere!

It's clear why I call for more "revelations" - it's time we see the big picture. It's time guys like this one to be directed straight to some good information:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...3-super-beginner-desperate-need-guidance.html

So we are back to the Dutch and Germans. I wonder what they did, if someone has information please post it. I'd love to hear a few things, particularly about filtration (was that Dummy Question #1? haha).

After we hear the fairy tale involving Old Europe we will see that ADA has taken old things, mixed some new approaches, sprinkled with eye-candy material and... caused a Renaissance.

The Fairy Tale:









Our Ivory Tower:









Vitruvian Japanese:









"You all are on to something you normally don't do... Lemme see..."









*So how did ADA does it, again?*

--Nikolay


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## longhornxtreme (Feb 20, 2007)

Awww... no comment on my post that was right before yours Niko?


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Oh sorry! "...It took me like 3 hours to finish..." Amano's vitruvian "...upper lip..." so I didn't see your crazy long post.

Reading now.

As usual I will start answering from the end and move up in a random fashion:

AquaSoil is not that expensive. As people that care to follow my posts should know I dislike people being tight with their money when it comes to the hobby. IF it makes sense of course. As I've said before - you can have a gorgeous planted tank with virutally any substrate. AquaSoil combines the properties of what we can cook ourselves. But one can't see it as the perfect substrate for any tank. It all depends on what we want

Indirectly you touch on the issue of: "What kind of a tank do I want?". To me personally ADA's practices give you the most flexibility with the greatest stability. That doesn't mean that I want everybody to adopt their ways. What I want is perspective. Understanding what's what.

Now on to the beginning of your post. You say that AquaSoil supplies the plants with pretty much all they need. Oh it better! Because that's the buffer against underdosing. As we all know, and as you mentioned, ADA's tanks have a lean water column. We all understand how easy it is to dip under some level of a nutrient and end up with a deficiency. The AquaSoil then takes over and saves the day. I don't know if you saw the interaction AquaSoil/Water Column Ferts that way. What I didn't know was the Potassium issue and how the cunning ADA masters casually propose using a liquid source of P. Bottom line is - we are exposing information that was not very easy to find before. It may stay burried in this thread or it may make it in a post that sums it all up. 

Your next paragraph talks about why in the very first stages of establishing a planted tank ADA has to take us through the game of not really cleaning Ammonia from the water but still keeping it under some control so algae doesn't start to grow. Honestly I don't really know exactly how that works. AquaSoil contains Ammonia. We found that from experience but surprise-surprise Amano never concealed it from us. So ADA puts some kind of Ammonia source in the AquaSoil with the intent to stimulate the plant growth in the first stages. And at the same time it suggests big water changes. To me it sounds like they are trying to feed the new plants through the roots that are still trying to emerge. But we all know how fast the roots can grow so maybe that's the idea indeed.

Here's a funny observation that I think many people have noticed. ADA suggests adding Amano shrimp on Week 2. For the budding algae of course. But the Ammonia coming from the AquaSoil will wipe them off immediately. That Ammonia can leech forever from what I've seen. To me the advice to add shrimp in Week 2 assumes that the Ammonia has been taken up by the newly developing plants, and removed by our water changes. That doesn't always work perfectly as planned. Just an observation how we should apply common sense (just in our hobby, nowhere else!).

Your third paragraph is briliant in my opinion. I wish every member of APC and PT reads it! Except it's missing a small and very interesting detail - ADA suggest adjusting the temperature very precisely at certain levels during the first 1-3 Weeks. Starting from cool going to warmer. I guess their undergravel heater contraption may have had a designated role in that phase too, I don't know. But notice something important - these people have looked at every facet of the problem. How many times here on APC we have suggested playing with the temperature when setting up a tank? "Equilibrium" you said - that's the goal! But it REALLY depends HOW you establish it. I personally have found that if you let the tank establish for 3-6 months without any light and any intereference it always becomes so stable that no algae shows up even if I let it evaporate 1/3 down! I attribute that to the slow establishment of everything in the first stages.

Next you talk about the water changes. I really don't know what is the exact reason to change water in an ADA tank. Of course what you said makes sense. Is there more? I don't know. What I do know is that part of the concern of ADA are the organics (Dummy Question #001 -003). Also I've heard that ADA always adds their Bacter product after each water change. If that's true then they are adding hetherotrophic bacteria - the bacteria that I called "Uncool" in Dummy Question #002". They deal with organics. That makes mr think that besides preventing the water from building up an excess of anything a big concern are organics. Probably. Maybe, just like us, ADA don't really know or care about them...

The liquid fertilization of ADA is something I really don't know about. To me it's important that the levels of fertilizers in the water are low. Meaning that if algae decides to show it's ugly head the headroom is very little. They hit their hairy heads in the roof very soon and have nowhere to go but down. Plus the shrimp tickle them to death if they crawl out of their cosy algae liars.

Ah, too many letters as they say in Russia. There are a few more things I'd like to add. Maybe later.

--Nikolay


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

Very interesting set of questions and discussions, Niko. :thumbsup: I fully admit, I am one of those who found certain things that have worked, and stuck with them, without the full comprehension of 'why'. Then when things get screwy, as I now have in a tank, start picking things apart and hope to hit on the right answer. 

Your discussions seem to be directed straight at the ADA system. Obviously, many folks don't use this. So, what are the salient points we can extract from these for those of us choosing not to ADA'it? 

An obvious one seems to be the 'E' word - equilibrium. But what exactly does that refer to? Are we talking about the age of the tank allowing the cool/uncool micro-orgainisms to reach some sort of balance? Are we talking about dosing strategies being constant for an extended period of time? Are we talking about fish populations, plant populations, stems vs rhizomes, fast vs slow growers????....  OR, is it all of the above?...

Which leads to the follow-up question - what do we do when the equilibrium goes off? What's the best way to re-establish it?

Then there's also the issue of your water. For those folks who don't want to 'mix their own' with RO, etc, how much does that limit the schemes we choose to use? I've never used ADA products, but with my hard water, I cannot run a lean water column tank. Would this be a non-issue if I had a rich substrate? Having a very aged substrate (7+ years), one would think it would be fairly rich, and I still haven't had any luck running lean tanks. 

So many questions, so little time...

I hope folks continue to discuss this!


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

hope i dont offend anybody, but what's discussed so far is just basic planted tanks setup, there is nothing new nor interesting. 

To uncover the secret to ada tank is to know the #s, for example how many ml of each dosing do they use, how long do they leave the lights on at x wpg, what's the co2 bubble rate, do they position the outtake to have some surface movement or none, how often are the plants trimmed/maintaned (the longer the maintenance cycle the more validity the ada method has), do they use any other type of chemicals to buffer the ph - related what is the water params of their tap water, or do they not use tap water etc....

those are the details that will help uncover ada tanks (if there is anything to uncover), otherwise this thread will just be another discussiong on how to setup a planted tank 101. I mean everyone knows you dont add fish until the plant is settled in, tank balanced, and water change will remove excess nutrient to help with algae. Those are not ada specific and just common sense...at least on apc.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

newguy said:


> hope i dont offend anybody, but what's discussed so far is just basic planted tanks setup, there is nothing new nor interesting.
> 
> To uncover the secret to ada tank is to know the #s, for example how many ml of each dosing do they use, how long do they leave the lights on at x wpg, what's the co2 bubble rate, do they position the outtake to have some surface movement or none, how often are the plants trimmed/maintaned (the longer the maintenance cycle the more validity the ada method has), do they use any other type of chemicals to buffer the ph - related what is the water params of their tap water, or do they not use tap water etc....
> 
> those are the details that will help uncover ada tanks (if there is anything to uncover), otherwise this thread will just be another discussiong on how to setup a planted tank 101. I mean everyone knows you dont add fish until the plant is settled in, tank balanced, and water change will remove excess nutrient to help with algae. Those are not ada specific and just common sense...at least on apc.


No offense taken, on my part. But, I think what Niko is trying to get at, is to talk about the underlying reasons why certain things work, rather than 'these are the things that work and these are the amounts'. Does that make sense?  But, hopefully he'll chime in here.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Newguy,

You are correct - we are very much skimming on the surface here. There are reasons for that:

- You can't make a nice comprehensive post that introduces everything at once.

Most people just ignore such posts. I'm trying to lead everybody into a discussion and give a perspective where the US hobby is today. Then more people will be interested to learn "new" things.

- From what I've read about ADA's approach I think that they stress on certain things that make the aquarium work as a system. They seem to rely on the interactions of everything they've deemed relevant to create a stable self-leveling system. How novel indeed...

I'm not sure they go beyond what they've found relevant and they know works. So I think they don't delve in too many details really - only what's relevant. For example pH - there is a reason to keep it at about 6.8 and not lower. We know that with their soft water a pH of 6.8 means not very much CO2. But the reason they keep it there is not just to regulate the plant growth and have to trim less. There's something else. Sorry for scratching the surface again - my primary goal is to point out simple questions that we have no answer to. To induce discussion. In the case of pH I don't think they don't use any buffers. Just the amount of CO2.

Another example is the light intensity vs. CO2. ADA makes keeps a corelation between the two. Same with CO2 and water flow. It's easy to notice the corellations but not many people have noticed them. I do believe that by asking simple questions more people will get intrested in how "all things ADA" work. And of course not necessarily follow it. But have more insight and more answers.

--Nikolay


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

It would be helpful if after you are satisfied with the discussion and have gathered some information you consolidate your findings and write an article for the library section or start a summary thread. 

I know from reading your posts that you prefer the discussion and searching part of learning, but many of us (me included) find a focused, pithy source of information that can be readily found and referenced very valuable indeed.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

hi niko, curious how did you find out ada keep their tanks at around 6.8 ph. Are you sure they keep the ph stable, how do they do that? As i am pretty sure they dont use ph controllers, and if they just leave the bubble going it will have ph swings.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

*Geeks,*

I'm sure that hobbyists that are more knowledgeable than me have reasons to not post the information in one nice and clear post. Or they simply don't know.

Between the two you start to understand why I'm running all this circus.

*Newguy,*

ADA does not keep the pH at exactly 6.8. But higher pH is better for certain processes. They keep it at a level that is a compromise between at least 2 processes.

Also as I mentioned - the pH swings in an ADA tank are actually intentional.

*Folk,*

We have come to a point where all this is starting to show sad undertones. I've tried to induce interest and all I get in 6 posts has been between me and about 8 people. I see quite a few people hit the threads but do not post. Who knows if they just clicked on the post, read the first line and went away. Meanwhile, in the last few days I saw several new people come to the forum. I saw questions about algae. Questions about dosing. One guy said something like "I got a tank, I got a light, I'm waiting on fertilizers and I'll start..." Indeed! Once again - this has little to do with my ego. I do these Dummy Questions to try to get people to understand things that are relevant.

Next Dummy Question will be about the Spirit of the Times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist

And it will be nice if you listen to the radio interview that I'll link to in the post. It's very interesting even if you are not interested in aquariums.

Yes, sounds a bit strange to discuss "the Spirit of the Times" instead of how to dose fertilizers. Let me say it this way - Dummy Question #007 will give a perspective on where the hobby has been before and where it is now. Did you notice that for some years now Amano does layouts that don't seem very innovative? Not his usual self? As usual - I maybe wrong but in the process of reading my writings (and the ensuing discussion I hope) you will learn something for sure.

--Nikolay


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## longhornxtreme (Feb 20, 2007)

Don't be disheartened Niko... I understand what you're trying to do; some people either 1) have to be right, or 2) are scared of change. 

I'm very much interested to hear your thoughts about the intentional pH swings... My quick hypothesis: high pH night time leeches very low amounts of nutrients from substrate into water column and plants then absorb these nutrients. Low pH during the day prevents nutrients from leeching into the water column thus depriving bad algae of nutrients. 

As for Amano's layouts being vastly different, I don't know what you're getting at... Maybe they he simply planted the tank meticulously, waited a week, took a picture, and then broke the tank down? And now he's tired of the work and wants the tank to actually thrive for more than a few weeks?


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## MagpieTear (Jan 25, 2009)

longhornxtreme said:


> Don't be disheartened Niko... I understand what you're trying to do; some people either 1) have to be right, or 2) are scared of change.


3) Many internet forum denizens have the attention span of a bored gnat on a sugar rush
4)Very few are familiar with this style of interaction in a post, they come here to seek a quick, concise (easy) fix for a specific issue. This approach of making them think is new and frightening.
5) It reminds me of why I couldn't finish college. 
6) This may be the most powerful of them. No one wants to appear as a fool by throwing out a thought or theory that may be proven wrong. The Flip side of #1. Problem is most people don't realize the one's who occasionally do look foolish are the ones who stand to gain the most.


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## jas1w124 (Dec 18, 2009)

I like your posts, but sometimes it seems as though you are trying to be a stand up comedian. I have had many good teachers that teach that way, but many people probably don't respond because the apparent sarcasm in your long winded speeches can sound patronizing. Not me though, I get it. Instead of dummy questions, you should title them, questions that make us think.


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## jas1w124 (Dec 18, 2009)

Oh, and be nice to New Guy, he has a small funny looking head.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes I'm well aware of the ultra short attention span. I used to be a teacher and when I came to the US I was pretty shocked to see that I couldn't keep the kids focused for more than 3-5 minutes. The only thing that worked was to switch gears every 3-5 minutes. The kids in the third world country where I come from were able to stay focused for about 20 min. I bet now, 15 years later, things are different.

Sarcasm and sounding patronizing on the internet are "no-no"-s. Only people that really read what you are saying get the sarcasm and often even they don't. Normally I keep my sarcasm at bay more or less. Sounding patronizing - I can't help it. I know more about planted tanks than many people. I've never, ever said that before. Maybe I should have - it would be clear from the beginning who's who so noone thinks of saying "Yeah, right! Who are you to tell me!".

But you have to admit -peppering my writings with self effacement remarks is a good way to counteract the patronizing tone.

When writing the Dummy Questions I'm having fun. Here I've forsaken my forced habit of cutting my sentences to make them short so an unknown someone can follow my thoughts.

If it hasn't become clear from the 6 questions so far - I'm looking forward to learning more from the discussion. A lot of the sarcasm and logic is really meant to make me think more critically about what I think I know.

Yeah, I noticed NewGuy's new face too. I even thought "Oh, I know that guy!". But it was just the avatar that I'd seen somewhere else, belonging to someone else...

--Nikolay


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

By the way the title of this thread was not intentional. It was not a joke or sarcasm or anything.

--Le Dumy D'Questoin


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

So far, this is the absolute BEST in the Dummy question series (although i'm eagerly waiting for one about Aquascaping). Not because the answer is 'simple', but because the question itself is so naive it is probably the best question ever to ask....

From what i see in most ADA tanks, somethings are obvious from my begginer pt of view: 

1. They do break a lot of the so-called rules. Even though they follow artistic guidelines, they dont seem rigid and binding from a structural pt of view. Definitely there's more art to them than science. The rest of the world is thinking scientific.

2. Their tanks are simple. The tank may be large and beautiful, individual elements may be carefully detailed... but taking a close look, there are very simple. Almost nothing contrasts and there's very little 'hard' plants and/or fish in them, with not that many elements to balance. However, there is a strikingly healthy and balanced look to it. The rest of the world wants to amaze, ADA seems like they want to calm.

3. They don't go overboard with their species. As a result, keeping their tanks 'happy' is a lot more direct... they already know how their species behave, or rather, how well their species do with their parameters/products. The rest of the world would rather constantly introduce more variables (species) to their systems... specific numbers dont seem to matter much because they are already using a lot of standarized products and plant species.

So if someone asks me How they do it (not that i know), i'd say they: keep it simple, use what they know will work and don't bind themselves with rules. Just what any artist would say


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

> Yes, sounds a bit strange to discuss "the Spirit of the Times" instead of how to dose fertilizers. Let me say it this way - Dummy Question #007 will give a perspective on where the hobby has been before and where it is now. Did you notice that for some years now Amano does layouts that don't seem very innovative? Not his usual self?


state of the hobby.. Maybe layouts are getting stale? seen it all before? I dunno. For many, the hobby is improving in the US in recent years. Several new spp per year are introduced and positive ID efforts proceed. We are keeping difficult plants with ease and the availability here improves. I have overseas collectors asking for plants now, discussing ID and care info -- and a few years ago it was the other way around.

the new guys, they come and go. I hope they all stay, but some drop out or move on before the hobby takes hold. The nice layouts seen in contests are inspiration, but inspiration needs motivation and patience for long term results? And something to focus on - layout, farming, collecting, taxonomy.

how to really help the new guys? Its hard to answer. I lurked APD when I was first getting interested, and read it and followed some good discussions. Then I stubbornly tried using my reefer lights and inert sand to grow plants. It would have been easy to give up with all the frustration in the beginning. But there was lots of good info available, I just wanted to 'get going' and also didn't spend much time vetting advice. Watch out for the LFS unless they have nice planted displays and you are talking to the guy/gal who maintains them.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> I'm sure that hobbyists that are more knowledgeable than me have reasons to not post the information in one nice and clear post. Or they simply don't know.


I think the answer is that they don't know. Many posts on this forum describe what has worked for people. Experience is valuable but it doesn't teach the unseen workings of the aquarium. Experience can get results, which is the goal of most in our hobby. But understanding what is happening in the aquarium is a different topic and would be very valuable.

Why do very few planted tank hobbyists know the details of the planted aquarium (me included)? Several reasons:

1. It is very complicated. Some understanding of physiology (plant and animal) and chemistry is prerequisite knowledge. And get ready to pull out those reference texts as you go through the details.

2. Doing the research to find the details is difficult. Any one aquarium has many, many, many variables. Isolating a cause and result is often impossible. We can guess. We can use experience. But to really find the answer requires more time, money, space, etc than most hobbyists have available.

3. Good resources are scarce. Businesses in the fish keeping hobby and even more so in the planted aquarium hobby are not lucrative. So there are not a bunch of good books. There are a few gems to be sure. But there are many more superficial quick reads that are aimed at the beginner. If you want to see how finding and reporting the details is properly done, read Diane Walsted's book. It is an excellent book which covers many details of how the planted aquarium functions. It focuses on the workings of a "natural planted tank," but much of the information is applicable to many types of planted aquarium. The information is based on scientific research which the author consolidates and explains to make it applicable to the intended reader. I would love to find a book of the same quality that deals with high tech planted tanks. Information on the internet is scattered and largely superficial or incomplete. The forums are great with lots of good information, but they lack a centralized location for information. The forum format prevents this to a certain extent. I would love to see more articles in the library section (e.g. "How I set up my high-tech planted aquarium: Details, numbers, species, photos, and results included." Wouldn't that be a great article from an experienced hobbyist?)

4. Every aquarium is different. Setting up an aquarium with a recipe of x watts of light, and x dosing schedule, and a certain substrate can get one started on a good path. Sometimes it may work perfectly. But often the recipe will have to be adjusted based on results with sketchy data to guide the adjustments. And often the recipe has vague or non-precise values (watts per gallon, CO2 bubble rates, etc). Most people that stick with the hobby can overcome this, but not by learning how it all works. Most succeed with trial and error (me included, though I'm trying to learn more).

So your dummy question posts are a fine idea, but much of the posts have been the same sort of information that is already all over this forum. Some educated guesses, some good data, some misdirection. But with no authority to confirm or deny any of the posts, I fail to see this thread's value thus far. I don't have the knowledge to be that authority. I don't have access to the scientific literature to validate any of this (few do and few want to). I think Niko's writing style is keeping people's interest thus far, but the teaser will only work for so long without something meaty to sink our teeth into.



> How to really help the new guys?


If that is the real question, then the "Dummy question" threads can function as a way to collect information, guesses, and conjecture. But the threads will not be of lasting value without a summary. I hope we get some great info from this thread series. But in 6 months or a year from now another new hobbyist will find APC and start looking for info on how to setup a planted tank. They will not search for "Dumy Questoin" and read through all these posts. If there were a summary article in the library section or a sticky thread with the results of the discussion there is a good chance they would find it.



> But how do they do it?


It seems that no one who is reading this thread knows. If I were approaching the problem I would start with the recipe and break it down from there, not guess what they are doing and hope to end with the recipe. In my estimation, the problem is far too complex for such an approach.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

niko said:


> Yeah, I noticed NewGuy's new face too. I even thought "Oh, I know that guy!". But it was just the avatar that I'd seen somewhere else, belonging to someone else...
> 
> --Nikolay


lol what are you guys talking about, i had the gnome icon for years, ever since i registered on apc!

anyway i am sure i will get flamed for this, but i think a cookie cutter template is not impossible, all we need is someone who has done it successfully to fill it in:

1) dimension and gallon of tank
2) lighting total watt, color temp 6700k-10000k, how many hours,
3) dosing what, how much, how often
4) tap water params, tank water params, tank water temperature
5) co2 bubble rate, off at night? surface movement? reactor/diffuser used
6) substrate used
7) what plants, fish, inverts, how many, what food is used for feeding and how much

if someone with a successful ada tank (success = true low maintenance, scrubbing algae off the glass every night does not count!) fill in those params, i dont see why it cannot be repeated by everyone else....


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

'Cookie cutter templates', undoubtedly work, BUT, what happens when something goes off? You have to have some kind of understanding of, at least some of what is going on in the system, to attempt a fix of it. Otherwise, your cookie cutter is broken and you can't make any more cookies. 

I _think_ I understand what Niko is trying to accomplish here - making folks think about what the various factors are in a successful, healthy planted tank. But I agree that when all the discussions are said and done, some sort of summary, loosely written, tightly written, whatever, would be most beneficial.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

As far as 'state of the art' goes, if we're talking aquascaping and Amano, it's one thing, if we're talking 'state of the art' in how to successfully have a planted tank, it's another.

The beautiful tanks that we all see are indeed beautiful. But, for me, they're not 'real'. You're looking at an artfully designed, executed and presented moment in time in a tank. No doubt, done with incredible skill of the executor of such tank. It's 'eye candy', for me, with no substance. I'd much rather know what it takes to have a healthy planted tank and a vibrant micro ecological system in there for all the inhabitants therein - _with a minimum of algae!!!_ *That* 'state of the art' is much more important...for me. And if nothing else, you must have that portion of the 'state of the art' fairly well understood to be able to create the other 'state of the art', namely the aquascape.

FWIW, my 2 cents.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

newguy said:


> if someone with a successful ada tank (success = true low maintenance, scrubbing algae off the glass every night does not count!) fill in those params, i dont see why it cannot be repeated by everyone else....


what helped me when I was looking for stable methods were journals. The ones that show setup, planting, issues and resolution were quite helpful. The discussions about chemistry, and pH and bacteria - Not so much. Interesting stuff, but not so gripping until the original challenge of setting up a stable environment is tackled. Then go nuts with artsy layouts or farming or what have you.

the nice thing about journals that have detailed methods, is that you will see there are many ways to succeed (and fail) where stability is concerned. See a journal you like, post questions for more detail or PM the owner. Most people are happy to talk about what they do and how its done.


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## rjfurbank (Jan 21, 2008)

I have been reading these threads as I enjoy trying to understand more about the planted aquaria hobby. I think the discussion of how ADA tanks are run (and why--which I think is the point of these threads) is very interesting.

However, I agree w/ ashappard that this information would be better suited to a "teaching" journal thread where you can show us what works (and hopefully also explain why--which I'm sure would be a great source of discussion and additional experimentation by others) and maybe also run some experiments on the tank to induce, and then correct, deficiencies.

I would be very interested in that as it seems you are quite knowledgeable.

-Roy


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

niko said:


> What I didn't know was the Potassium issue and how the cunning ADA masters casually propose using a liquid source of P.


Just outta curiosity, are you still talking about Potassium (K) or did you change the element in question to Phosphorus (P)? I can't call this a case of ignorance... perhaps momentary stupidity...

Anywho, onto my main response... Let's see if we can take all of the Dummy Questions and put together something resembling aquarium ecology principles. (I hope...)

I think the overarching idea of Takashi Amano's ADA system (lights, fertilizers, CO2, substrate(s), filtration / water movement, etc) is the *stepwise* and gradual formation of a stable ecosystem characterized by a nutrient rich and bacterially active substrate and a lean water column.

I think that this is the biggest cultural difference between, say, "American" techniques (i.e. High light, High CO2, Inert Substrate (mostly) and PPS-Pro & EI dosing) and the Amano way of running an planted aquarium. (Let's ignore Diana Walstad's El Natural method for the momement...). In the Amano method, Amano states that there are distinct "phases" of an aquarium and specific things have to be done during each phase (i.e. Add this Fertilizer Step X, keep the temperature at this level, add the shrimp now, add the fish now, etc.) in order to grow and mature the entire necessary aquarium ecology (i.e. root formation, bacterial growth, substrate REDOX, etc). In contrast, the "American" technique basically says that to grow Plants X1, X2, X3, etc. you need these conditions (i.e. High Lights, CO2, this substrate, that dosing schedule, etc) and you basically provide "these conditions" from the very beginning of the planted aquarium to the day it gets torn down (i.e. you get bored, it gets infested with algae, etc). As the aquarium is running and growing, the aquarium ecology is just assumed to just develop with no thought for either its role or its well being.

To briefly touch upon some other points of the Amano system and how the dummy questions relate (or how I think they do anyways...)...

... The "cool" and "uncool" bacteria live in the substrate. This is why the Amano substrate is so much more complicated and evolved from our system(s). It provides nutrients to the plants and the proper environment for the bacteria to live. These bacteria help the aquarium by converting fish poop and NH3 to NO3.

... In order for them to live, they need to have enough O2 available. This is why Amano turns his CO2 off at night. (So the bacteria don't suffocate so to speak.)

... In order to keep algae out of the aquarium, Amano runs a lean water column by providing most of the nutrients the plants need through the substrate (i.e. Aquasoil & Power Sand).

... To get the plants to use these nutrients in the substrate after initially setting up the aquarium, Amano keeps the temperature cooler to increase the concentration of CO2 in the water. (i.e. Gases are more soluble in colder liquids than they are in hot liquids.) Also, algae grows slower in cooler water than warmer water. (Note - This is all speculative chemistry hand waving, but that's what i'm good at...).

... In order to keep the water quality up (i.e. the COD low), Amano advocates a lot of water changes. Perhaps this is something we do anyways, but at least knowing the COD value allows us to quantify it (even if it is a prohibitively expensive and complicated test... who wants to work with Hg compounds anyways to remove Cl- interferences? I wonder why Tl or Ag compounds aren't used instead... Hmmm). Also, maybe this is why we get certain algae outbreaks (i.e. High COD) and can't find a value to point at? (No idea, just a guess there...)

Together, all of these things help to create an effective aquarium ecology for the growth of aquarium plants and not algae... Which is how they do it... maybe. (Let's hope I don't have to change my signature after posting this...)


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I was not joking when I said yo seem to understand more than other "experienced" people. You seem to have some natural insight. Not everyting you say is like I think ADA explains it. But it's very close.

For example hetherotrophic bacteria according to them live in the filter and the filter is setup in such a way so it will help them and the other bacteria at the same time. But there is no way they are not found in the substrate.

The rest of the things you described are probably an even better explanation than the information I have. You and Longhornextreme are pushing the boundaries of what we know about ADA. Why not their own boundaries too, ahhaa

I meant K, not P.

--Nikolay


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes, without several journals and comparison all of this is just talk.

I don't have to say it - it's pretty clear that that was one of my goals. To bring this dog and ponny show to a point where we beging to think about giving ADA's approach an actual try. 

--Nikolay


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## endgin33 (Jun 10, 2008)

To me (I am new to the game and don't pretend to have a lot planted experience) it seems as though the differences in the "styles" (ADA vs american vs walstad) is some what like the differences between "modern organic" and modern "industrial style" agriculture. (I use those terms loosely as dosing is not really organic obv.) Also I think that music might be a good analogy to use when it comes to style differences. To some extent these comments echo JeffyFunk thoughts.

The ADA "style" loosely resembles a modern organic farming method in that the important factors for good growth involve the initial (set up) organic conditions of soil that fit appropriately with the intended crop. With an ideal initial condition, the level of maintence is less intense. ADA uses a few kick starters such as CO2, but does not aim to overdrive the system. 

I think of the Amanos step by step approach as a conductor leading a symphony, bringing certain elements into the peice at a precise moment in time to ensure a harmonic event. If the elements are brought together following the sheet music and proper execution, the symphony will sound right.

The "Walstead style" tank is by definition a nearly organic enterprize. You are hoping to develop a natural cycle and tap into the dynamic stablity of that system. Given that you are appling a natural approach to a closed loop you will make some tradeoffs like generally slower growth, but that inherit slowness allows the natural rhythm to establish. It is the closest to actual natural growth in a resource limited setting. 

Musically, I would call it a jazz exercise in which each player uses the others to guide where the song leads, in which the players are different environmental factors (light, co2- o2 cycles, fish load, nutrient gain/lose etc.) One player very directly relies on the simultaneous action of another player to make the system (song) work.

The American "style" seems to me more like industrial agriculture. If you want a crop that needs lots of nitrogen, add extra ammonium nitrate. Plants like light, give them lots of light... This "forces" the plants to grow in areas that otherwise would not support them (think flowers in the desert, or plants in inert substrate) By providing excess nutrients and fine tuning to reduce waste of those nutrients, you can stay ahead of the competition (algae) for maximum economic rewards (phenominal plant growth rate and yeild) This style seems to be the farthest from the natural cycle, and because of that it would seem to have the highest risk/reward cycle- if something goes wrong it goes really wrong. 

Musically, I imagine the American style as similar to Hip Hop sampling- you don't actually need a "real" instrument, just the technology to emulate them, much like it doesn't adhere as tightly to the more "organic cycle" approaches of ADA or Walstead . The music is created from previous musical sources and doing it right into a coherent arrangement, takes a creative process that has elements of compostion familiar to the natural cycles. You can't just sample anything, smack it together and expect it to sound or work right, it has to have a rhythm, harmony, etc.

I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion, but I guess that is my way of approaching the different styles.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

See that's the big confusion and doubt i have. The ada fanboys and amano are saying their crystal clear tanks are NOT a moment in time (a photoshoot), it is a REAL tank that stays like this with just basic maintenance (ie: no daily algae scrubbing, etc..). Also if you notice all the seminar and training amano does, he almost focuses entirely on aquascape layout and initial setup, never does he talk about the intricacies of long term maintenance or how to achieve a permanent balance within the tank.

I am not convinced that's true, but we will never know unless someone sneaks into the ada showroom in japan and see what they do to those tanks at night after the gallery closes. (i vote niko for this task)



Bert H said:


> As far as 'state of the art' goes, if we're talking aquascaping and Amano, it's one thing, if we're talking 'state of the art' in how to successfully have a planted tank, it's another.
> 
> The beautiful tanks that we all see are indeed beautiful. But, for me, they're not 'real'. You're looking at an artfully designed, executed and presented moment in time in a tank. No doubt, done with incredible skill of the executor of such tank. It's 'eye candy', for me, with no substance. I'd much rather know what it takes to have a healthy planted tank and a vibrant micro ecological system in there for all the inhabitants therein - _with a minimum of algae!!!_ *That* 'state of the art' is much more important...for me. And if nothing else, you must have that portion of the 'state of the art' fairly well understood to be able to create the other 'state of the art', namely the aquascape.
> 
> FWIW, my 2 cents.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

I think Amano is fairly honest in that regard. Or at least I hope so. A stable tank, no matter what the method - will not have troublesome algae that requires regular attention. Otherwise (IMO) you cant say the tank is stable. Behind the scenes, lots of primping and pruning but hopefully not so much algae cleanup.

and I usually dont think of ADA tanks as long term, unless 1year is long term. They usually tire of a layout before then and rip it all up and start over?


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

ashappard said:


> ... I usually dont think of ADA tanks as long term, unless 1year is long term. They usually tire of a layout before then and rip it all up and start over?


I think part of the problem is that Amano is known more for his artistic sense and less for his scientific endeavors. He has, in my mind at least, established himself as the king of fantastical and impossible to maintain riccia aquascapes. That said, even though he probably takes pictures of his tanks only at the optimum moment w/ the lights and hairdryer ripples, i'm pretty sure they're always algae free.

For an example of a long term tank, I always think about his HUGE home aquarium....

http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery01/12.jpg

If that isn't a long term aquarium, I don't know what is...


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

JeffyFunk said:


> For an example of a long term tank, I always think about his HUGE home aquarium....
> http://www.adana-usa.com/images/gallery01/12.jpg
> If that isn't a long term aquarium, I don't know what is...


true, its a very nice tank and his pride and joy I'm sure.
but that one is more the exception than the rule when it comes to ADA tanks.

I've seen aquariums using ADA methods run for 2+ years and thats something.
but the plant choices mix well with lean water column / lowish light (even the MH is dim by most standards). Blyxa, ferns, mosses, anubias, L.arctuata, R.rotundifolia.. and so forth.

I'm currently approaching 3 years on aquasoil in a few aquariums. So long term is possible I'm sure. Can aquasoil last 6+ years? Dunno about that, but I'll find out eventually. I did have a farming tank with eco-complete that was nearly 7 years old when I dumped it. Its like rock, doesnt break down. Probably doesnt feed the plants so much either.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm sure most of those thanks are maintenance free from an algae standpoint, clean water takes care of most of that, but I think the tanks shown are bad examples to use if you’re going to discuss "how do they do that". Those tanks are created by extremely talented scapers, but as mentioned they are 'money shots' that are further enhanced by talented photographers using a lot of gear. Besides the rippling effect the depth is enhanced, the sand is cleaned and the fish are schooling tightly (because they are new to the tank or are being coaxed) to further enhance the appeal.

I think the success of the ADA way in Japan has something to do with the science in the tank, but culture and lifestyle have alot to do with it as well. The culture lends itself more to detail, design and art which of course are necessary if your going to do things the ADA way. If there is one magic bullet in all this it would be organic control IMO. After that I think you have a wide range of parameters that successful tanks are thriving under. 

Now if ADA have shrimp that don't poop on the sand and fish that forever school I'm all ears.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

It must have been 2005 when I really wanted to hide in the ADA gallery and see what exactly happens when no visitor is there. Now I think that really nothing extra happens. No diatom filters running every night, no graveyard shift silent algae scrubbers, no 50% nightly water change.

One thing that I could never understand was the contradiction between water parameters that noone here in the US would even consider (pretty much 0 everything) and the strong halide lights shining on top. I asked someone, may have been Ricky or Ben (they visited the showroom at some point) and they said that it looked like the halides were never shut off.

http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/japan/ben

http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/japan/ben/pages

(In the seocond link the days of the week are clickable and lead to more text/pix)

So now I think that in the showroom they just fertilize more than usual. Just to compensate for having to keep the halides on during work hours when visitors come to look at the tanks.

--Nikolay


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## brighty K (Oct 1, 2008)

I haven't read every word here, so I hope I don't repeat something that's already been said.

One thing I've noticed about the aquarium "gods" is that you rarely hear things like pH, bubbles per second, etc. etc. talked about. They obey the plants, fish, and shrimp when it comes to maintenance. 

Did you ever notice that the kids with the fussiest moms have the sickliest kids? I think it's the same for the aquarium. Use aquasoil, co2, an eheim, and some decent light. Pack the tank with plants from the beginning. And relax. Do your water changes, dose sensibly, and let it be.

Lastly, the comments about a "moment in time" may be true sometimes, but not necessarily. At the AGA conference in Atlanta Amano mentioned to a small group that most of the tanks in the ADA gallery at the time had been running with the same layouts for four years. A quick glance at past Aqua Journals will confirm this. He'll change out some of the plants and replenish the aquasoil, but some of the hardscapes and underlying soil have been there for years. Amano has no problem with longterm, nor does aquasoil.

I don't think anything mysticall happens at the ADA gallery to keep their tanks clean that can't be imitated at home. Regular, sensible, experienced maintenance.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

brighty K said:


> Did you ever notice that the kids with the fussiest moms have the sickliest kids? I think it's the same for the aquarium.


that couldnt be more true :thumbsup:


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

I think 'a moment in time' is completely different than long term. A moment in time is a camera op when the stems, moss, etc. have grown to the right size in relation to all other things. At that 'moment' the camera gear is readied and the pic is taken. Which is clearly what the pics in this thread are about. I don't think that's any big secret. The tanks can certainly last a long time but to the discerning eye they won't be worthy of the money shot again for a while. 

It's funny when I first started with planted tanks around 4 years ago I used to test everything and had issues. Now I don't test anything and have virtually no issues. I occassionally use a drop checker to make sure the co2 is good, but that's it. 

I do agree with Brighty K to a certain extent, although as Niko pointed out ADA does measure cod, no2, no3 in their tanks, but I don't know if that's just to communicate their values or are they monitoring on a regular basis.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> It's funny when I first started with planted tanks around 4 years ago I used to test everything and had issues. Now I don't test anything and have virtually no issues. I occassionally use a drop checker to make sure the co2 is good, but that's it.


So, in your opinion, what changed for the 'issues' to go away? Was it settling into a long term routine, tank maturation, becoming more adept at 'reading' the tank? Or all of the above?


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

It's very funny you mention his home tank, i agree that is a normal tank that's setup for long term use like a normal person would. However are you guys seriously not seeing the major difference between his home tank(lots plant, natural messy layout) and his show room neatly aquascaped tanks?

why do you think he didnt setup his traditional showroom tank at home if it's easily maintained? this further adds to the doubt. Personally i think aquasoil is good, the ada tanks are good too due to the craftsmanship, all the other ada products are just overpriced smoke...

His home tank is the middle one...












JeffyFunk said:


> I think part of the problem is that Amano is known more for his artistic sense and less for his scientific endeavors. He has, in my mind at least, established himself as the king of fantastical and impossible to maintain riccia aquascapes. That said, even though he probably takes pictures of his tanks only at the optimum moment w/ the lights and hairdryer ripples, i'm pretty sure they're always algae free.
> 
> For an example of a long term tank, I always think about his HUGE home aquarium....
> 
> ...


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## f1ea (Jul 7, 2009)

Lots of interesting opinions and statements. I think it would be great and further enhance the thread if Niko does some kind of summary where he compiles the most important and educating statements in one single post (and maybe others in 5 page intervals or so).....


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

newguy said:


> why do you think he didnt setup his traditional showroom tank at home if it's easily maintained? this further adds to the doubt.


Amano has mentioned himself that when he had the addition to his house set up for this *VERY* large tank, he chose the species in the tank because he knew that lighting such a deep tank would be an issue. (I think he mentioned it in either one of his Catalogs or in an interview about his tank...) As such, he set up a tank filled with lower light tolerant species such as narrow-leaf java ferns, bolbitus, and anubias. That said, the use of attached plants to the driftwood and mosses is really nothing new (perhaps the scale of the tank is new or the lack of a jungle of stem plants in the background is new).

Personally, I think we really need to stop with Amano bashing in general. For the record, Amano himself has stated that he's set up over 2,000 planted aquariums. With a personal experience like that, I have no doubt in my mind that he's set up plenty of unrealistic / artistic / high maintenance planted aquarium designs and plenty of long term / low maintenance / also-artistic-but-in-a-different-way planted aquarium designs. Even if only 10% of his designs we would all consider "long term" planted aquariums, that's still way more aquariums than I, personally, have set up. And probably more than the rest of us as well (probably including even commercial aquarists like the Senske brothers as well...)

Also, the topic of Amano is kinda getting off topic as well. Whatever plants Amano decides to put in his planted aquariums, the point Niko was originally trying to make (I think...) is that all of his tanks are set up *IN PRINCIPLE* the same way, which is different than the way we set up our planted aquariums. Whether he chooses a high light / stem plant heavy aquarium or a lower light / java fern / anubia plant heavy aquarium doesn't really matter. Sure, it affects how much maintenance is involved and which specialty fertilizer series he uses, but it's really his principles that are the same throughout. Getting this conversation bogged down by how misleading his fancy lighting techniques and photography tricks are isn't going to further our knowledge of how he maintains his planted aquariums...


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Bert H said:


> So, in your opinion, what changed for the 'issues' to go away? Was it settling into a long term routine, tank maturation, becoming more adept at 'reading' the tank? Or all of the above?


What changed the most IMO is my knowledge and the ability to read the tank. Not testing has also proven to me anyway that there is a wide-range of acceptable fertilizer concentrations that are O.K. and don't stop the plants from growing since my fert routine changes sometimes based on my schedule. I just dose at the high end.

In terms of keeping the tank algae free assuming the ferts are met is keeping the organic content in check which is of course through WC, filter cleaning, lean stocking and feeding. I think many people eventually get lax with these things. For example if you clean your filter every six months what is happening in between. Isn't waste coming back into the water column settling on the wood, rock, plants. What happens when you restart your filter and the tubes are dirty isn't that stuff going back into the tank as well. When it settles on something that isn't growing like wood and rock what's going to develop when light hits it after a while. The plants that are most likely affected would be then your slow growers, etc. When a tank is first setup many people have algae issues. At this point there is a lack of a mature biofilter to deal with all the organic breakdown. That's why wc, purigen, reduced light cycle, seed filter, plant heavily all play a major part in reducing the effects of the organics. I bet you the 'majority' of people do some of these things at startup, but I bet you the 'minority' do all of them.

Newguy,

I see where you going with this, but I don't think your example is a good one. First off, I think Amano could afford to have someone take care of his home tank of which I'm sure he has others as well (they would have to don Scuba Gear for that one.) Secondly that tank is way to big or deep to even grow the ground cover in the other tanks. Even if you could get that light down there to grow riccia for example, it would be way to strong and would probably create other issues. It's no secret that Riccia will eventually detach from rocks and float up even at ADA.


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## Reginald2 (Feb 8, 2009)

I've read a percentage of these posts and I think I like the direction, meandering and semi-bloviated though it is. 

Perhaps if Endgin33, and others, are right, any other form of discussion wouldn't be a fitting way to discuss the subject matter. There does seem to be some correlation between American and overcoming the bounds of nature through technology. This is a pretty fascinating series of threads. I think I would like to know a little more about the ins and outs of an Amano tank. I didn't know about the Power Sand, and hadn't connected Aqua Soil to nutrient rich (though admittedly I should have). 

I would love to know how much CO2 they are looking for in their tanks. Those ada advanced systems look tiny, I wonder if they are hella-spensive or just not an overkill.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> In terms of keeping the tank algae free assuming the ferts are met is keeping the organic content in check which is of course through WC, filter cleaning, lean stocking and feeding. I think many people eventually get lax with these things. For example if you clean your filter every six months what is happening in between. Isn't waste coming back into the water column settling on the wood, rock, plants.


One of the things i like about these discussions is the occassional reminder to follow proper procedure. Coincidentally, i cleaned my sump's Poret sponges last week for the first time, after they have been running for 14 months. The tank is also very heavily loaded. Thus i removed a lot of built up organics. The 2 tanks running on the sump have algae (small amount but annoying) that my lightly loaded tank does not have! After cleaning the filter, guess what: The plants are generating more O2 (more visible mid0day bubbles). This reminded me that dirty filters consume O2.

A few of Niko's "Dumb questions" reminded me of the desirable role of high O2, and possible connection to NH4 utilization. Thus, i am also temporatily stepping up my water change regime to 2x per week... so i can reduce DOC further. 
If i had the ADA DOC test kit,  or had been paying closer attention, i would have remembered that higher fishload in a planted tank requires different maintainance. ( Only in the last year are some of my plant tanks heavily loaded.)


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## Cliff Mayes (Jan 29, 2007)

I first read the word bloviated in an essay by William Buckley, many moons ago, and tried to unsuccessfully look it up in the local libraries OED someone suggested the Third World International and much to my surprise I found it there. I bought a copy of the dictionary for $99 but with the NET it seems as if the $99 was ill spent.

Sorry about Hijacking Nico but the word use was too much of a lure.


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

JeffyFunk said:


> the point Niko was originally trying to make (I think...) is that all of his tanks are set up *IN PRINCIPLE* the same way, which is different than the way we set up our planted aquariums.


Agree we getting off topic, but the original topic (if that is the topic) doesnt warrant much discussion. I think we are overanalyzing the amano method. Why is it so much different? look at the ada products (filter, lighting, co2 injection, tank, nutrient dosing brighty, substrate, plants), none of them are dramatically different than the normal western products excluding price. The only exception is maybe aquasoil, but eco-complete is a pretty close alternative..

Now if the equipments are similar, what exactly is different? I think the main difference is amano is a bit more patient, unlike american method who dumps everything in at day 1. But that isnt really a completely different method, just variations. I am sure many americans (myself included) also dont dump everything in 1 shot. I would add plants, then co2, then dosing, then fish/shrimp once things are stable, etc..

really the topic should be how do AQUASCAPE effectively like amano method, NOT how to SETUP a planted tank effectively using amano method. Aquascaping successfully and tank setup successfully are two completely different items.


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## mudboots (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm really enjoying the "dummy" series, and more importantly I am learning quite a bit.

Just one question though, how much Excel should I put in my NPT...?ound: hah! Just kidding...


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## jas1w124 (Dec 18, 2009)

newguy said:


> lol what are you guys talking about, i had the gnome icon for years, ever since i registered on apc!
> 
> anyway i am sure i will get flamed for this, but i think a cookie cutter template is not impossible, all we need is someone who has done it successfully to fill it in:
> 
> ...


Then you have no variety, also how often you trim your plants affects how many nutrients they take. I don't want an exact copy of a pro tank, I want to make my own and understand it so that as some have said, if something goes out of whack, it just makes sense and is easy to remedy. If many people are like me, they think " there must be just one thing I am missing, I am doing all these things just as described by the pros but don't have the same outcome, it must be just one thing." 
However, my tank is really doing well right now and my algae problems are disappearing, I think my problem was caused by a faulty co2 regulator, the second one in a month. My carpets are spreading like crazy and everything is growing very good, so maybe I figured out the balance.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

I prefer to discuss the WHY, but i will offer some comments about my recent experience with some ADA stuff... since the conversation has taken a different path.

There are some things about ADA Nature Aquarium approach that I use and like (AquaSoil). Other things i use and dont like (PowerSand). Many parts that i dont use as marketed, some i do which are equivalent by choice, and many NA parts i dont understand. Thus i may or may not be matching some parts of the "system." I dont think i know anyone that uses everything in the ADA system. I am not sure that is the only way it is marketed. 

I think AS is great. After keeping planted tanks for many decades, i am glad that i decided to give this product a try. I have used gravel, sand, sand+peat, sand over soil, flourite, onxy, flourite+calcite. I have been successful with all. So far, the best thing i like about AS is how easy it is to remove plants, even ones with lots of roots. I can even insert a scizzor into the substrate to cut a buried rhizome. Try that with other year old substrates.

I used the powersand, despite suggestions from some folks i respect. I wish the pumice was darker. It is a PITA to remove the large white pieces that settle on the surface after pulling up some plants. It teaches me patience to accomplish the task. I dont think i will use PS again.

I am not sure if it is the PS or the AS that contains the large amount of initial nutrients. I tend to think it is the former. Clones of plants which i have kept for 20 years did not like the initial AS+PS substrate conditions. e.g. very very low pH and high NH3. After 1 year, some of the same plants including a few Echinodorus sp. are now starting to grow. I attribute it to the maturation of the substrate. The idea of a rich substrate and lean water column is not new. 

Regarding nutrients, i mostly dose the water column using my own brew, but more recently i have also supplemented the substrate. I am an inpatient scientist, so I am also increasing water column concentrations and ratios so i confess that i cant be sure which has resulted in the positive change in some plants. I dont like to use test kits and it certainly would have been easier to know what nutrients are provided from the substrate vs water and thus what nutrients were lacking. For me, the plants are the test kit and looking for deficiencies and morphological changes.
--Neil


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

f1ea said:


> Lots of interesting opinions and statements. I think it would be great and further enhance the thread if Niko does some kind of summary where he compiles the most important and educating statements in one single post (and maybe others in 5 page intervals or so).....


Without much blo-vi-ation I'd kindly ask our moderator to do that.

The discussion is picking up speed and I guess this particular thread will reach 1K hits in the next few days. It's worth keeping the interest up.

Once I have a better understaning of the information I got (it's many, many pages) I may try to compress it into some kind of Cliff Notes format.










Until then I'll continue to bloviate around the bush. (I think I memorized that word now and never use it again.)

--Nikolay


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

newguy said:


> Agree we getting off topic, but the original topic (if that is the topic) doesnt warrant much discussion.


If this topic didn't warrant much discussion, then why are we on page 6 discussing things?



newguy said:


> I think we are overanalyzing the amano method. Why is it so much different? look at the ada products (filter, lighting, co2 injection, tank, nutrient dosing brighty, substrate, plants), none of them are dramatically different than the normal western products excluding price. The only exception is maybe aquasoil, but eco-complete is a pretty close alternative..


DISCLAIMER: I have never used any ADA products or any commercially sold planted aquarium substrate for that matter (I'm a soil or soil-like substrate person). That said, my observations are that many people swear by the power of Aquasoil (nfrank just raised his hand with a vote of approval... I'm pretty sure Texgal will too to name another off the top of my head). Eco-complete, while not necessarily a bad product, just doesn't command the same amount of respect. (I really don't want to make this post into a poll about which product is better, please.)



newguy said:


> Now if the equipments are similar, what exactly is different? I think the main difference is amano is a bit more patient, unlike american method who dumps everything in at day 1. But that isnt really a completely different method, just variations. I am sure many americans (myself included) also dont dump everything in 1 shot. I would add plants, then co2, then dosing, then fish/shrimp once things are stable, etc..


And this is exactly what is at the heart of this entire post or rather series of posts by Niko. It was his goal to make us all figure out those "variations" that lead to Amano's tanks being as stable and as algae free as possible. I think that intuitively, most people know that an aquarium is very different when you set it up initially than when you've had it running for a period of time. But the question that was indirectly asked is **WHY** do we do things differently?

At the beginning of reading all these dummy questions (or dumy questoins as this one is known as...), I admit that I didn't really "get" the message. But after reading all the clues, I think it's clear where the clues are leading us.

The amano system explicitly (or perhaps not so explicitly...) explains how to establish an aquarium so that the plants grow well and algae never has a chance to thrive. The Amano system principle essentially uses a nutrient rich substrate and lean water column at the beginning in order to encourage strong plant root growth. Coupled with decreased temperature and decreased lighting and you set up an environment where only the plants can effectively grow from the nutrients in the substrate and algae cannot. Also, by running the CO2 only during the day and stopping it at night, you prevent the "uncool" bacteria in the substrate (or the filter or wherever they may be) from dying. Soon after, you add the amano shrimp to deal with any algae that might be starting anyways. Frequent initial water changes help to deal with any organics in the water (and ammonia) that would be bad for the aquarium (and measured by the COD value of the system, a parameter rarely mentioned in American Systems)

In other words, Amano is explicitly telling you how to get your plants to develop good efficient root systems and keep a lean water column so that algae never has a chance to grow.

In contrast, the American system basically says "Here are the conditions that growing plants need. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5..." (Talking to my plants like they're my children) "I just planted you plants, now grow before the algae shows up or else!" We have a tendency to treat (and talk about) a tank that's 1 week old the same as a tank that's 1 year old. And then when we have problems, we again make no distinction between a tank that's 1 week old vs 1 year old. Why? Because while we may instinctively know that a 1 week old aquarium is different than a 1 year old aquarium, we don't know what exactly is different or, more importantly, what needs to be done to the aquarium in order to get the plants to grow, keep algae from growing and properly develop the rest of the aquarium ecology. This is what the amano system does and states.



newguy said:


> really the topic should be how do AQUASCAPE effectively like amano method, NOT how to SETUP a planted tank effectively using amano method. Aquascaping successfully and tank setup successfully are two completely different items.


Niko stated in the first post of this thread...



niko said:


> Let's leave the aquascaping aside. No more blowing of minds. Just dry facts


Furthermore, you're really missing the entire point of this thread; It's the methodology and explanation of why Amano does these things when he's setting up a planted tank and getting it established in that delicate first month of existence that is what makes the Amano system so great and so different than the "american" system.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

> "JeffyFunk...In contrast, the American system basically says "Here are the conditions that growing plants need. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5..." (Talking to my plants like they're my children) "I just planted you plants, now grow before the algae shows up or else!" We have a tendency to treat (and talk about) a tank that's 1 week old the same as a tank that's 1 year old. And then when we have problems, we again make no distinction between a tank that's 1 week old vs 1 year old. Why? Because while we may instinctively know that a 1 week old aquarium is different than a 1 year old aquarium, we don't know what exactly is different or, more importantly, what needs to be done to the aquarium in order to get the plants to grow, keep algae from growing and properly develop the rest of the aquarium ecology. This is what the amano system does and states."


Who exactly do you feel is including in this American System? Do you actually think that the majority of planted tank enthusiasts here think or do what your labeling the 'American System'?


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## endgin33 (Jun 10, 2008)

It seems to me that a labeling of the "American system" would be something like "keep nitrates at this level, keep phosphates at this level, keep co2 at this ppm, when bba appears spot treat with excel, etc". I am a dedicated newcomer to this hobby, and frankly, I have gotten smoked by algae after trying certain methods of fertilizing or trying to hit certain target PPM's. 

I genuinly have no idea what I did wrong when algae goes beserk sometimes. I really feel that the only reason I am posting on this subject is to try to let people know what a novice planted tank person might feel about this confusing subject. Frankly us new guys (no pun or slight intended) are scared to jump into this mess.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

I do believe that the majority of the US planted tank hobbyists follow some kind of variation of either EI or PPS (once again El Natural falls in a different category). Which we could call "The American System". We do whatever we've found works. Pretty much blind and that shows when we have issues - we give rudimentary answers.

That's the main reason I started the Dummy Questions. 

I do believe that neither T. Barr nor Edward actually knew how ADA sets up and runs their tanks before they went on to create bigger and better things. I don't think Jeff Senske new back then. Or Luis Navarro. Or Ryan Suiso who had the best site about japanese aquascaping back then (suiso.com). Or anybody. Now noone can prove or disprove what I just said. Someone knowing or not - fact is we have never had a good document explaining ADA's approach. 

We could say that it doesn't matter - what we have is a US hobby that has grown very well with or without Amano's "secrets". Thanks to people like Tom and Edward, but especially to the myriads of aquarists that never gave up and kept on fighting algae and other issues without having a good understanding what's what. Today, about 10 years after the hobby took off in the US it's still in a childhood stage in many ways.

I bet for some people the Dummy Questions where the first place where they heard about organics, how Amano didn't really invent anything but used a lot of old European knowledge, how come ADA has like "0" nutrients, new vs. old established tank and so on.

JeffyFunk did something very useful. He summarized the relevant information that you can gather from all 6 Dummy Questions. 3-rd answer, 3-rd and 4-th paragraphs. But I find that summary useful for other reasons. If instead of writing all these Dummy Questions I had written a nice summary what we would have now would be a small thread with a few answers burried somewhere way back. No discussion, no intrigued people, no annoyed Philosophos. Just a forgotten thread.

--Nikolay


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

endgin33 said:


> It seems to me that a labeling of the "American system" would be something like "keep nitrates at this level, keep phosphates at this level, keep co2 at this ppm, when bba appears spot treat with excel, etc". I am a dedicated newcomer to this hobby, and frankly, I have gotten smoked by algae after trying certain methods of fertilizing or trying to hit certain target PPM's.


For the most part, yes, this is what I mean. If i'm wrong, I would love for someone to correct me. From what I've read of the PPS-Pro & EI systems, it simply states you add make solution X1 & X2 and dose them Y1 & Y2 times a week or you add chemical X1 on day Y1, Y2, Y3, chemical X2 on day Y4, Y5, Y6, etc... And when you get algae, it's because you didn't dose correctly or have an inbalance of something. (True, sometimes algae does appear because of deficiencies, but sometimes we have no idea... or at least I don't have an idea ) There's nothing in the system that says, "When your tank is less than 1 month old, you need to do these things instead". It's (perhaps unintentionally) implied that the aquarium "cycles" and is ready or will "cycle" and be ready with really no mention of it or understanding of it or even how to care for it (it being the "cool" and "uncool" bacteria and other proper substrate chemistry).

From this series of dummy questions, I'm now more aware of (1) establishing and maintaining proper substrate chemistry, (2) how to establish good plant root systems with lower light & lower temp values initially and (3) the importance of COD as a indicator of general aquarium health and how to maintain it through proper filter maintenance & regular water changes. I'm sure many of us instinctively know these things, but now I at least have a better appreciation for them. And hopefully other people will too.


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## Bert H (Mar 2, 2004)

> From this series of dummy questions, I'm now more aware of (1) establishing and maintaining proper substrate chemistry, (2) how to establish good plant root systems with lower light & lower temp values initially and (3) the importance of COD as a indicator of general aquarium health and how to maintain it through proper filter maintenance & regular water changes. I'm sure many of us instinctively know these things, but now I at least have a better appreciation for them. And hopefully other people will too.


I agree! For me, number 3 in particular, is a major issue. I, personally, tend to ignore my filters until the flow slows down, and, of course, by then other problems are also arising, or have arisen. Instinctively, you know how when you do a major water change and coupled with a filter cleaning, the tanks seem to look better for the next few weeks. Well, (light bulb going off in my head!!), duh.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I've been reading along for a while now. I've found all this very interesting. I do think one thing that is missing in this discussion is the variety of plants that Amano uses with his "system". Ashappard mentioned this and red plants early on. Once in a while I will see one red plant in Amano's set ups. Most of his set ups contain various microsoriums, crypts, anubias, hygros, etc. His aquascapes are the ones that we would classify as "long term". They grow slower, require less light, have bigger root systems, etc. It makes sense that root systems would be more important. Most stem plants aren't in this category.

When you end up with a greater number of different plant species, mostly stem (my favorites), many red, I believe the ball game changes a lot. Try keeping R. macrandra for years by trimming off the tops and keeping the "roots" and see what you get. (It's not pretty.) Many of the plants I keep are nutrient hogs and without heavy water column fertilizing they melt and die. I have read that plants don't need 20 ppm of Nitrate in the water, 1 will do as long as it's there when they need it. Technically, that's true, but when you have an entire tank of these the Nitrates go fast! Same thing goes for the iron. I can tell you the difference I've seen dosing my micros everyday instead of every other day is amazing.

Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly no expert. ADA AS is the best thing since sliced bread. I use it and the power sand. (I do hate it leaching back up to the surface, arrggg!) The lower pH makes a big difference. The cooler temps make a big difference. (My 125g is overheating now..) I just don't think it's as easy as 1, 2, 3. I think the biggest thing we can do, to understand all these relationships, is what Ashappard mentioned earlier, keep a journal of what you are doing, what you change and what the outcome is. These collectors have learned the relationships between what the plants look like and what they need.

Thanks for the dummy questions Niko. There's a dummy inside of all of us! That's why we have this little guy!


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

Can someone please expound on the role of lower temps? I had not realized that was part of the ADA plan.

I have always instinctively kept my tank temps on the low end.. partly, to help maintain slower metabolish and growth. I dont even use heaters. The room with my tanks fluctuate between 65 and 72 in the winter. I like to allow my aquariums to have a diurnal variation. Right now, my room is 71deg and the tanks are 76deg. At night the water must be a few degrees lower. In the summer, the water temps are >= 80, but i dont have control over that.

What is the stated ADA reason for lower temps?


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Just so there's no mistake I think this thread is a very positive thing as it brings some very intelligent discussion to the forefront and I believe 'light bulbs' will go off in some heads whether they agree or not.

I am a big fan of Amano. I started in this 4 years ago after killing some time in a book store on a business trip and flipping through one of his _Nature World _books.

That being said I don't know if it's that easy to compare the "ADA System" with that of an "American System". I don't think there really is an "American System" EI and PPS are dosing systems (or that's the way they are looked at) not Overall Tank Systems, like ADA. The dosing is just one part of this. To me you can't separate the Aquascaping from the Maintenance in ADA Style. They go together, the middle name is Design. I haven't seen too many ADA System tanks that aren't aquascaped. The layout (scape) of nature aquarium sometimes takes into account rocks that can be covered by foliage so they don't get direct lighting and stay clean. The height of the tanks (they are usually shallow) also are part of the equation since the shallow tanks don't require intense lighting to grow carpets. In US most tanks still sold are not 'Plant Friendly' and aquarists here are forced to use stronger lights to get carpet or reds which creates other issues as you know. In US if one walks into a LFS and asks for fertilizer they are usually sold Seachem Flourish, period. This is all culture and ADA in Japan works well with the culture I'm not sure it's possible here yet.

Comparing aquascaping here to there is like comparing American Soccer to UK Football. In the UK for example Football (soccer) is the biggest sport by far. It's been around much longer, more play it, watch it, etc. so more advances are made. They have a feel for the subtleties of the game better. They understand better how everything works together to play the game. Aquascaping in Japan (ADA) could be thought of in the same way IMO. They've been doing it longer and have a better grasp on the smaller elements that come together.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> with that of an "American System". I don't think there really is an "American System" EI and PPS are dosing systems (or that's the way they are looked at) not Overall Tank Systems, like ADA.


I am not sure that even the dosing approaches mentioned above are unique to American aquarists (although the terms may have been born in the USA). The concept of adding nutrients including phosphate to the water column has preceded those approaches.... it is called changing water and feeding fish. 

I like to think of commerical systems like ADA (discussed in AquaJournal) and Dupla (discussed in The Optimum Aquarium and Aquarium Heute) vs. the more adhoc approaches . The latter can be quite varied, representing various combinations of : substrate, fertiization, carbon source, lighting, bioload, plant community, tank size, etc). Even "EI Natural" is not one cookbook approach. 
In fact, the appearance of the ADA NA has evolved over the years as different plants and aquascapes have become more or less popular, but there are some themes that have remained the same. They are not all designed to be low maintenance. I also find it amusing that folks say that Amano doesnt use red plants. e.g. take a look at the current issue of AquaJournal if you have it -- AJ 171, p. 20 and p.30 (jan 2010). This shows that some of his published aquascapes are very heavy on stems.

I could describe what i do, but i would first have to come up with a catchy name.  And like many of us old timers, our aquatic gardening style and approach may not necessarily remain stagnant.


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## Reginald2 (Feb 8, 2009)

niko said:


> Until then I'll continue to bloviate around the bush. (I think I memorized that word now and never use it again.)
> 
> --Nikolay


laid out between parenthesis: the foundation of the American educational system. I hope the obscure wasn't taken as cheeky, I don't know that was anybody's intent, at least I don't believe it was mine. Mr. Buckley I couldn't answer for and, to be honest, I probably shouldn't. I would think that Mr. Buckley and I would have different goals, but only because we start in a different place.

The differences between a Eurasian and American system doesn't seem like it could be too different. Both strive for the same goal: a little slice of nature in the living room, something natural in the living room, or something based on nature but better in the living room.

Can it be that two oceans would separate understanding from non-understanding a living room water box? Could it also be that a sort of hidden understanding will unlock the secrets to better aquariums through chemistry? It seems possible when the impossible is possible with science.

I am quick to chalk up less pervasive marketing to being marketing. Perhaps I've sold Amano a little short. I think I am a little more curious of the possibility that there are secrets to better aquariums that I don't already know about just now.

What a wildly intriguing set of questions this has been for this dummy. I for one, can now say that I've heard of COD that didn't involve the postman and a lean water column under a metal halide. There are now more possibilities than I thought that there were.

I, for one, would be interested in more dumy and dummy questions.


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

nfrank said:


> I am not sure that even the dosing approaches mentioned above are unique to American aquarists (although the terms may have been born in the USA).


They aren't. Somehow when I was trying to convey my ideas, the only thing i could think of could of was "American System" to describe EI & PPS-Pro. They are definitely not unique to America and no disrespect was meant to our fine European and other fellow aquarists around the world.



nfrank said:


> I like to think of commerical systems like ADA (discussed in AquaJournal) and Dupla (discussed in The Optimum Aquarium and Aquarium Heute) vs. the more adhoc approaches . The latter can be quite varied, representing various combinations of : substrate, fertiization, carbon source, lighting, bioload, plant community, tank size, etc). Even "EI Natural" is not one cookbook approach.


This pretty much sums up what I was trying to get at. When **I** think of the ADA system, I think of Amano's (supposedly) amazing aquasoils, the minimalist aquarium equipment and the dizzying array of liquid fertilizers available such as ...

... Brighty K, Green Brighty Special Lights, Green Brighty Special Shade, Green Brighty Step-1, Green Brighty Step-2, Green Brighty Step-3...

Whew!!! To the ADA system, each liquid fertilizer is necessary (esp the Green Brighty Step 1-3 series) in order to promote the proper development of the plants. To myself and a lot of other people, we see this as marketing. Being the inquisitive people that we are, we simply figured out what nutrients are necessary to grow plants well and then just added them to the aquarium without really thinking that aquariums develop and that perhaps the nutrient requirements of the plants change over time.

Over a period of time, the nutrients added by the ADA liquid fertilizers is probably the same as those added by the PPS-Pro & EI systems. It's really the concept of starting with a lean water column & starting with aquarium conditions necessary to discourage the growth of algae and encourage the growth of plants & plant roots that is somewhat unique to the ADA system. The idea that initial conditions are different (and how to do them) is really the whole point of this dummy question (i think..).


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

nfrank said:


> I also find it amusing that folks say that Amano doesnt use red plants. e.g. take a look at the current issue of AquaJournal if you have it -- AJ 171, p. 20 and p.30 (jan 2010). This shows that some of his published aquascapes are very heavy on stems.


I dont have it, but out of curiosity what are the spp? Red is not a common color in general, but I have seen red in ADA tanks over the years and I'm usually disappointed (as a collector) at their aversion to risk - lack of stretching out towards more difficult plants. R.rotundifolia / R.wallichii / L.arctuata ? I see those a lot (sigh). I can accept that ADA is about aesthetics and design over individual species or genus challenge, but still - disappointed. Further, I'm surprised at the lack of Tonina / Syngonanthus and Erio in the ADA and ADA inspired layouts. Perhaps its the difficulty in merging them into a layout, because I can safely say from experience that Tonina, Syngonanthus and many Erio do thrive in Aquasoil and lean water column.

If I'm missing evidence to the contrary, please do correct me. I have to admit that layout is not something I follow with much interest, so I could be missing out on many examples that break my vision of ADA plant choices.

In my mind - I see ferns / mosses / Anubias / Blyxa / riccia / Glossostigma / grasses / Hemianthus / easy Rotala and Ludwigia spp. 
I hope their current plant selection is more advanced than I give them credit for.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Finally I learn!

Heterotroph. Not het*h*erotroph.

Hope I remember it after the selfish trick of typing and posting about it.

--Nikolay


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## newguy (Mar 18, 2006)

JeffyFunk said:


> makes the Amano system so great and so different than the "american" system.


no i didnt miss the point, my whole point is the amano system isnt that much different than the "american" system, unless you count the overpriced ada equipment used or define "american" system as joe 6 pack who bought a few plants and fish from walmart and setting up his 10 gallon tank with an eclipse hood....


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Typos or not this thread is the best thread I've read for ages. It's interesting to me to read the perspectives of others. 

Untill now I saw the hobby as being in the Dark Ages because we were unable to take all the information that we have and piece it together in a logical way. But after the last 2 or so pages of this thread I start to believe that there is much more understanding of how and why the US hobby is as we have it today.

I think what's missing is exposure to some pretty simple details about ADA's approach and we, collectively, could take this hobby to it's next level.

--Nikolay


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## peanutbowl (Mar 25, 2009)

Hello all,
I've been following the threads for a while now and thought I might chime in. The dummy questions have inspired me to my broaden my search for info. For example, i stumbled upon this which i thought was interesting and might somehow pertain to the conversation........
http://www.hollandsgiants.com/soil.html

Also, since i never officially studied biology, I found this to be a good resource of 101 kind of stuff.....
http://biology-pages.info

None have led me to any specific answers to the dummy questions, but good fodder anyway.

The one thing that confuses me the most about this conversation is how some so easily dismiss Diana Walstad's book. I have not read "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" but I have a hard time believing it doesn't touch on some of the topics that amano sees as important. I'm pretty sure I've seen Diana W suggest an "el natural" tank could be supplemented with higher lighting and CO2. It seems amano's "nature aquarium" and walstad's "el natural" approach are just two different paths to the same destination.


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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Well... I have been following my own advice and googling away (about 6 hours now) searching for information. Exactly like the pompous author of the Dummy Questions kept on suggesting.

What did I find?

You will laugh. I certainly did. This is not a joke so if you indeed laugh it will be partly at yourselves. I just got done laughing at myself...

*Quite a bit of the information that I've been suggesting you google for is right here on APC.* And no need to glue pieces together either. It's all here - with a meaningful discussion, links and so on.

How's that for a bittersweet sample of our own always-looking-out-and-forward mindset?

I have pretty strong reasons to believe that if we do things the way they have been done for many years the good old discussions about algae will be greatly reduced. A good place to direct a newbie for basic info will be... APC.

--Nikolay


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## DVS (Nov 20, 2005)

I'm probably in over my head here but ... . If one wants to further plant growing science (and the minimization of algae) is'nt the better question why do EI, El Natural, and ADA all work. (Of course assuming we all believe, if correctly, applied they do work).The methods that everyone wants to view as so radical are all growing essentially the same plants and preventing the same algae. (Algae apparently can strike an ADA tank, I saw a reference to it under maintenance.) Since the goal is the same it must be the things held in common that are the true "secrets" to having a successful planted tank.

But I admit, I have no idea what I'm talking about.


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## Tausendblatt (Sep 16, 2009)

*IS NOOB*

Good read. And yeah I actually did read it all. I am not knowledgeable to give any good information on the subject of weither Americans are doing it wrong... But, Inert substrate CAN grow a lot of plant species, I seem to have a lot of ease growing egeria najas and Limnophila sessiliflora in particular. I also could grow many native species like Elodea, Milfoil, Pondweeds, Callitriche, and Eleocharis. But I have gotten lazy for a bit and I stopped adding DIY CO2, cut my lighting in half, I even shut off my filter for a month or so. All of this especially shutting off my filter gave BGA the upper hand... but it also let me grow almost 1 kilogram of Lemna Trisulca. In my small amount of experience, I have discovered that you do indeed need to dose nutrients for stem plants even in low light, The light level makes a big difference in what species can grow, and you also do indeed need a bit of filtration to keep BGA down. But you don't _need_ CO2... very badly... for the most part... Low temperature is better for most plants also. These are my hypotheses based on what I have experienced in my time from June 2009 ->January 2010. I have came to the conclusion that I like stems the best.

I also learned that mineralized topsoil isn't as great as one would be led to believe by other hobbyists. I have had it going for a few weeks (I don't know how long exactl) and I still have yellowish water, with particles of dirt resting on leaves every few hours. I could blame the fish, or the fact that I don't have very thick cap of sand, but there should be more stressing of the importance of such sand. Also, in the mineralized topsoil tanks, a mid sized bottom dwelling fish such as a bristlenose pleco shoves sand all over by cruising on the bottom. And, when I plant a stem, bubbles come out of the substrate, the substrate is really soft like... a pile of dandelion seeds resting on the ground. Poking the base of a stem is like putting it into some sort of Beef...Stew... At least I have so little algae that my pleco is eating leaves. Wait, is that bad, or good?

Perhaps aquasoil is the best, but I don't think that is the entire point. Maybe I'd better review the O.P again.

But it is true many ADA tanks and sort of things ignore a lot of species...

Mostly, hornwort, egeria/elodea, floating plants, bacopa, hygro, and those fancy tonina and friends... (as someone else mentioned) Potamogetons are lovely but not used by many. If Amano and his kin use lower temperatures than most, they would have no problem with such potamogeton species. Sago pondweed looks really beautiful in thick bunches. In my opinion, better than giant hairgrass.

But one thing they do use, is a lot of eleocharis vivipara, which hasn't been mentioned except by me.

For the floating plants, like water lettuce, perhaps they are not used because they need water column dosing. Perhaps it's the way they look, there is no levitating roots coming down from above on land. Maybe I am alone in the way that I like how aquatic ecosystems look, I like it better than how things look on land. Take this stuff with a grain of salt. I just felt like saying what I think.

EDITS: after rereading a bit of stuff, I decided maybe I disagree. I can definately see the arguement, but Tom Barr, in my opinion, is probably as experienced as Amano. He grows aquatic plants under experimental conditions as a part of his career. Thousands of them. I don't think he follows the ADA way of life for growing such things. I don't know if he's a member here though. I am not a believer in CO2, but Mr. Barr seems to think it is the greatest thing since canned bread. He grows carpets of H.M. with about 2 WPG. He grows so called high light species with low light just by adding enough CO2. He also says that a rich substrate can be used with EI, and there is no reason to think they are incompatible. This is what he says.

I grew milfoil in a pickle jar on a windowsill, I grew milfoil in inert sand in a tank with 1.4 WPG. It isn't hard to grow plants really. There is more than one way. In the wild, I have seen Elodea Nuttalli growing in sand in 3 inches of fairly cold water, and I have seen it growing in a warm ditch with rich soil in full sun, and it grows in lakes in water 8 feet deep. But then again, there is always a bit algae in natural systems.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

Tausendblatt said:


> But, Inert substrate CAN grow a lot of plant species, I seem to have a lot of ease growing egeria najas and Limnophila sessiliflora in particular.


ah ha! I did too, inert sand brings back memories and embarrassment when I think about stability issues and difficulty with many spp I tried. Of course it wasnt all the sand's fault. Heres L.sessiflora and Hygrophila difformis. And some swordtails. Spot the fry? the pH probe.. I think this is 2002 time frame when these were taken. It's like looking at an old high school yearbook photo. *shiver*

 

I think the point with various substrate methods discussed is working toward low-effort stability by the substrate you choose. We probably all define low effort differently - some people enjoy testing water for example, others would rather not. In the case of Aquasoil, I have to agree its great stuff. It is handy in many different situations, not just as part of the ADA system and its steps. Its great in a farming tank - bright light / rich water column / lots of trim and replant.

mineralized soil is very appealing, but you did give some examples where its not. Aquasoil, I notice - cant take too much roughhousing or it comes apart. You can swish it around fine (it beats mineralized soil there), but compress it and it can break up. But at least it doesnt scratch my acrylic tanks. Cant say the same for eco-complete / turface / SMS / etc.


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## Tausendblatt (Sep 16, 2009)

That limnophila looks really great actually. Maybe I have lower standards of excellence... but I am getting the vibe that you don't like the setup you had there. Maybe you are referring to how you could only grow two species?

My Limno looks a lot different than yours though. The whorls are closer together and more yellow green.

Acrylic bothers me in the way that it scratches so easily. The entire lower area of the one tank of mine are scratched up.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

The bad memory was the effort and frustration. I was happy to grow plants finally, but it was a lot of work and equipment and still I couldn't grow what I wanted. I was trying too hard and being pulled by so much contradictory advice. Test kits, controllers, charts and chemistry. It just seemed more complex than need be, terrestrial gardening wasn't so bad. Eventually I did settle with simpler methods and more reading visual cues and not fretting numbers.


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## longhornxtreme (Feb 20, 2007)

Yes yes yes! I can't wait to start my new tanks in this style as opposed to an inert substrate EI or PPS tank. Unfortunately, I'm still a starving student so I can't afford real aquasoil. But I will be doing a rich substrate capped with eco complete.

Thanks for contributing JeffyFunk... I appreciate your insight.

(and yours too Niko)



JeffyFunk said:


> If this topic didn't warrant much discussion, then why are we on page 6 discussing things?
> 
> DISCLAIMER: I have never used any ADA products or any commercially sold planted aquarium substrate for that matter (I'm a soil or soil-like substrate person). That said, my observations are that many people swear by the power of Aquasoil (nfrank just raised his hand with a vote of approval... I'm pretty sure Texgal will too to name another off the top of my head). Eco-complete, while not necessarily a bad product, just doesn't command the same amount of respect. (I really don't want to make this post into a poll about which product is better, please.)
> 
> ...


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## carlschr (Nov 10, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> I'm sure most of those thanks are maintenance free from an algae standpoint, clean water takes care of most of that, but I think the tanks shown are bad examples to use if you're going to discuss "how do they do that".


For the Record, Cliff Hui--the creator of the first Aquascape in you post--stated the following in an interview:

"_Do you ever have algae issues in your tanks? What is your recipe for avoiding algae?"_

*"All the time and that is no importance of making it no algae at all. My recipe is making good practice on maintaining the tank. Aware of the plant growing. A lot of Algae can only tell that you are making mistakes or lazy."*

http://www.hraquascape.org/articles.php?article_id=11

That doesn't seem too different from my experience with the American system. There's always some algae and if you make mistakes or get lazy you get a lot of algae.

Right now, I use a system not unlike my terrestrial gardening system; I create a generally healthy environment (to the best of my ability) and I try out different plants and if they like what I have to offer, I keep them.

There are Aquascapers all over the world and I assume that there are myriad ways to create a beautiful, healthy planted tank. I'd love to find out more about how people do it in Russia, Vietnam, India, South America, Germany, and Japan. There's so much to learn! That's what make's it fun.

Thanks for the interesting thread.


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## XJfella95 (Oct 27, 2011)

Nikolay

For the record I find these threads very informative and I tend to read every post through till the end. You are helping me shape my overall perspective on how these micro-ecosystems work and how I can get these things primed and self sufficient. Read: Healthy


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