# Still struggling with BBA and GSA 6 months later



## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

OK. So I have a few posts from a few months ago, under slightly different topics. Time for an update, focusing on algae issues. I'm looking for advice on how to continue/adjust my light/co2/fert strategies. 

First, thanks to "wets" earlier advice, I persevered with Low Light EI, resisting the temptation to adjust variables (OK I adjusted some). Pressurized CO2 (from DIY) has been the most recent and significant change (3 weeks ago).

The tank is about 6 months old. I have been doing EI for 4-5 months.

Tank
75G. Rena XP3 filter. Magnum HOT 250 filter. Gravel substrate. 34W T8 5000K + 68W T8 6500K 8 hrs/day. 2 Air bubblers running from lights out to 1/2 hour before lights on. 
Pressure CO2 with diffusion via the ISTA Mix Max reactor. I used to turn it off at lights out but now I run it 24/7 because my drop checker indicated that it took too long to turn lime green. 

Plants
A couple of bunches of Java Fern, Vals, something similar to Cabomba, Crypts, Amazon Sword, Blyxa japonica, Compact corymbosa, Myriophyllum, Pogostemon stellatus.

Fish
Mostly sterbai corys, bloodfin tetras, rainbowfish, and clown loaches. Plus dwarf cichlids, angelfish, snails and ghost shrimp.

Current Issues
Staghorn has come and gone. I have GSA on the glass and BBA on ornaments and edges of the amazon sword, crypts and corymbosa, and some on the glass too. The stem plants also have BBA. I'm trying to control with weekly trimming and a weekly high dose of excel localized to the worst areas. I scrape down the glass and remove and scrub ornaments with the filter off, then do a 50-70% PWC.

Fert Dosing
50% WC weekly.
EI Dosing is weekly according to the low light levels at rota.la
CSM+B 0.2 ppm Fe
KNO3 10ppm
KH2PO4 1ppm
K2SO4 10ppm
A couple of Osmocote root caps in vicinity of rooted plants every 3 months.

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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

As you can see I don't have a major infestation of algae, but keep in mind this is 2 days after a significant trim

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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Your plants are not doing well. I strongly dislike EI because the basic idea is flawed. According to your dosing you should have provided everything that the plants need. But they do not grow well. Noone will have an answer why. That is how EI goes - if your plants grow well EI is the reason. If there are no answers why something is off EI disappears into the woods. All problems are "solved" by adjusting the light and the CO2. If these do not work you are on your own and all issues are your fault. Keep in mind that EI is a fertilization approach. It is NOT a method to run a planted tank. But it is seen as a cure for all. Focusing on the fertilizers reduces the tank from being a system to being a test tube full chemicals which will do it all for you.

So here's what you can try. All according to EI:

Light:
You definitely need to look into increasing your light. 102 watts of T8 over your 75 gallon tank is not enough for sure. Keep in mind that the original EI article calls for 5.5 watts per gallon. Many people use EI with less light and will tell you that such high light is not mandatory. EI is "adaptable". Following that logic Tom Barr has claimed that very much anything you do is EI (big water change, high P). I'm sure one sunny day I will see a glass "EI aquarium" sold at Petco or something.

CO2:
The second thing to look at is your CO2. Forget the drop checker. All gizmos can mislead you badly. EI suggest you keep the CO2 at the maximum possible level at all times. That means just a little bit under the point where your fish start to suffocate. The idea is questionably logical not only because of risk to the fishes' life. Running your biofilter with high CO2 is the dumbest thing one can think of. Biofiler recovery is why 6 or so years ago ADA introduced night time aeration. But if you want to try what EI suggest you will have to increase the CO2 and watch your fish very closely. 

That is it. Your plants should take off like there is no tomorrow! Or so we hope. The only other thing that could be a source of issues is the quality of your chemicals. Even if brand new they may not be doing what you think they are doing. Also there maybe interactions between them that reduce the theoretically calculated amounts.

Something about your tank is puzzling. One thing that I know for sure is going on in your tank is having excess P. With all the fish, with adding P yourself, and poor plant growth your tank is chock full of the stuff. Yet, your Java Fern (a plant that LOVES Phosphorus) looks pretty bad. Have you tested your P and N with good quality test kits? That 50% water change keeps chemicals from accumulating on Wet's cool electronic internet web-site and in EI's projections but what actually happens could be VERY different. Have in mind that it is not uncommon to get off the EI train, let the tank be with minimal ferts and actually have the plant growth improve immensely. What is the reason for that is anyone's guess but there could be some kind of interactions outside of the ones we know (P interacting with Fe for example) that keep the neat little jar of chemicals from working as intented.

I strongly suggest you look into using rich substrate and using water void of nutrients (but adding just enough daily to be consumed in a couple of hours). That, in a nutshell, is what ADA does. And by the way - they pay much attention to the biofiltration and the water flow. I am not an ADA fan either but you do need bigger volume of the biofilter + good mechanical filtration. That Magnum filter, hot or not, when hooked up to a 75 gallon tank amounts to one thing - a joke. You definitely need a larger volume filter. And no, EI does not say a word about filtration. With the 50% water changes that EI suggests and you follow you should not have any BBA. But 6 months into the whole affair you do have BBA and another kind of algae too. 

Moral of the story is: Fertilizers are not everything.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I suppose it is a bit unorthodox but I have been fighting bba with small doses of algaefix and increased ferts especially phosphorus. Once a week I add the algaefix at about half dose. I dose these tanks with ei twice a week and micros twice a week but at much reduce levels. For the past month I have been increasing the po4 slowly and doing the algaefix treatments. BBA is retreating.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks Niko. 

Did you notice that the Magnum filter is my secondary filter? I so have a Rena XP3. Still not enough?

For now, I'll persevere with EI for a while longer, and make changes within the parameters of that strategy. I just don't want to charge off on a different path if I haven't made a decent effort trying to fine tune EI.

I'll consider changes to P, noting that others suggest increasing P!

I've actually reduced my photoperiod from 10 to 8 hrs. The algae was worse at 10 hrs. It seems counter intuitive to increase lighting to solve an algae problem. I'm not following something here.

Thanks again.

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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

Noting that I want to stay on the EI path for now....

PO4 is running between 1-2 (uncalibrated). NO3 is about 50 ppm (calibrated) at the end of the week. I dose less than that so the extra must be coming from food/waste. 

The CO2 has definitely increased and become more consistent since I've gone pressurized. 

I'll try to get to twice weekly water changes (accompanied by a fert dose), so should I wait and see if the stable/higher CO2 and increased PWC has a beneficial effect, before adjusting anything else?

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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm grateful for any advice, so don't get me wrong, but I rather expected some EI advocates to share some suggestions or opinions.

So far its been suggested:
Increase CO2 and risk gassing fish and harming filter.
Improve filter/flow - I thought I had excess.
Increase P or decrease P?
Increase lights - unfortunately I can't afford an upgrade. Should I increase the photoperiod. Is that an option?
Discontinue EI - in favor of what? I really want to give EI a fair shot. 

Am I doing everything right and need to live with an ongoing struggle with algae, or is there some clear next step?

Please help.

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## niko (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes I'd like to hear a straight answer too.


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## AquaBarren (Nov 6, 2009)

Roland. Tom Barr has his own sight. He seems to answer questions prolifically. Why not go there and ask him directly?

One thing I do recall him saying regularly is that light is the throttle. All other requirements are dictated by the amount of light that you deliver. More light = more fert, more CO2. less light = less of each. Obvious right?

He also often says that within any "throttle" setting for a tank, CO2 is usually the deficiency since it is the most challenging component to add.

I don't think he is as dogmatic as often depicted, but go see for yourself. 

Good luck. The only constants in life are death, taxes and some algae.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

I've just posted at TB's site. Thanks for the suggestion. 

In the meantime I've increased PO4 (although I'm not sure its a fert deficiency, I'm just trying to get closer to a better Redfield Ratio). Also, I've tried to improve flow and increase CO2 a bit.

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## herns (Aug 28, 2007)

Your BBA is an indicataion of low CO2.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

One week later with double PO4 and increased CO2: Less BBA has grown on leaves and ornaments. Very little GSA on the glass. No doubt. I'm not sure, but there may be more green hair algae on the plants.

Since I have trimmed fewer plants this week, I should get more fert uptake. I'll test at the end of the week.

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## jart (Mar 13, 2005)

Update? Just wondering how your tank is doing.


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## roland6543 (Sep 18, 2012)

So as I said above, I doubled the phosphate and I also increased the potassium by a factor of 1.5. Additionally I'm doing pretty harsh trimmings of leaves with bba edges but at the same time I added a few more plants to increase the bio load. 

I increased the photoperiod from 8-10 hrs. Probably most important of all I increased CO2.

Pretty much I think I did everything I could to encourage plant growth. 

The good news is my plants have improved A LOT. No pinholes on the Hygrophilia and the best, largest greenest leaves I have ever had on the java fern. Other plants looking reasonably good too. 

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