# 55G NPT, back in business



## FromReefs2Plants

Hello All,

I am new to the planted tank community, but not new to the hobby. I first started with reef tanks in 2007. I have not had a fish tank of any kind now for several years, mainly due to being in college and IMO you need a more stable location to have a successful tank, esp a reef tank.

I am an "adult" now with my own house and all, thus creating the perfect opportunity to have fish tanks again! At first, I was going to build a completely custom 60g cube reef tank, but the fiancee shot that down since it was a wee bit pricey. We have settled (for now ) on a 55g planted tank, much cheaper.

It will, of course, be an "el natural" as that seems to be the best way (imo) to do a planted tank, not to mention easiest! The build will progress somewhat slowly, so don't expect to see this tank up and running so soon.

I think these pictues will show up


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## mbkemp

Nice start. What kind of substrate are you going to use?


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## DutchMuch

Stand looks nice!  Cant wait to see more!!!


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## FromReefs2Plants

soil with a sand cap, fine white sand like you would use in a reef tank.


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## DutchMuch

Here is some A+ advice on your soil with sand cap:
I don't worry about where I place plants, but I obviously try to plant them where I think they will stay, so I recommend you try to make a plan of your tank if you haven't already. But, if I plant a plant in an area I later on want to move it, I trim it to the ground and replant the trimmed stem. 

The sand being so white, will mostly have a good amount of GSA growth on it at first, this eventually dies off.

Anyway there's 2 pieces of junk you may be able to use lol


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## mbkemp

I want to tag on to what Dutch said if I can. I use black diamond over dirt. Any breach of the cap is very noticeable even using black. 

The good news is you have a built in ammonia source to cycle. Your plants will love it


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## DutchMuch

mbkemp said:


> I want to tag on to what Dutch said if I can. I use black diamond over dirt. Any breach of the cap is very noticeable even using black.
> 
> The good news is you have a built in ammonia source to cycle. Your plants will love it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good information Mbkemp! You reminded me of something else to lol!!!

In my NPT I have a "lot" of deitrus built up, just small clumps of junk basically is what it looks like, if you experience this its just dirt that got up and settled on top of you sand, I cant personally get rid of it for good as it just happens for me. Plus I don't mind anyway its not like it clouds up or anything its just like a tumbleweed. But just wanted to add that to, thanks mbkemp for reminding me lol!


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## Michael

Welcome to APC!

Lots of opinions on the cap--want some more, LOL? Very fine sand compounds the debris problem because the small particles of debris cannot settle between the sand grains. In a Walstad tank, this settling is part of the nutrient cycle. The debris breaks down and releases nutrients to the water above and soil below. A cap with very small particle size also inhibits gas exchange between the soil and the water.

This doesn't mean you can't make it work. If you really like the appearance of the fine white sand, go for it. Please keep us updated, and good luck.


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## FromReefs2Plants

What do you recommend for the cap? I like the contrast of white sand, and being from reefing it is ingrained in my fish build design haha. I want what works best or at least good with this method. I was not aware of that problem with the fine particle sand.


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## FromReefs2Plants

some more progress


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## Michael

You might look at pool filter sand, from any big box home store. It isn't perfectly white and may vary in color, but it's close. The slightly larger and uniform particle size helps with all the possible cap problems.

Nice stand!


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## FromReefs2Plants

Thank you! It is going to eventually have a cabinet and book shelves underneath it.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Currently "skinning" the stand, should have some more pics this weekend. I do have a question though. I have been reading through threads/stickies and now I am worried about TB in my fish. Should I add a UV to the tank? I added one to my mom's 20g long, that cleared up the water and her fish seem to be in great health.


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## Michael

Here is a link to Diana Walstad's article, which is the best thing I've read on the subject: https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf


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## FromReefs2Plants

UV filter it is then, thank you for linking the article


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## FromReefs2Plants

stand is skinned, now the hard part (IMO) of cutting the molding correctly to make it nice to look at


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## DutchMuch

Nice!!!


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## dwalstad

Your carpentry/woodworking is amazing, down to every detail. I can tell that you are a perfectionist. That's a good prognosis for your tank.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Thanks for the kind words! I hope that the tank will look much better than the stand in the end! As for UV, I was planning on getting this one, the 24w version. This is the only UV I have ever used (9w on a 20L) though so I am biased, and it is a good price.


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## DutchMuch

Hey if you check out my 65g journal and my How to kill green algae, then youll see that's the exact same UV I got.
Yep it works great! Comes nicely packaged, etc. 10/10!


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## hoppycalif

The initial cost is $70, then you have to replace the UV portion every 6-8 months at $35 each time! I would have to feel sure that I need this before ever considering it. I can buy a lot of fish for that same cost. I think you will find that a very small percentage of experienced planted aquarium hobbyists use these. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.


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## DutchMuch

hoppycalif said:


> The initial cost is $70, then you have to replace the UV portion every 6-8 months at $35 each time! I would have to feel sure that I need this before ever considering it. I can buy a lot of fish for that same cost. I think you will find that a very small percentage of experienced planted aquarium hobbyists use these. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.


You say 6-8 months but you have to double that easily, Maryland guppy even has a UV in his/her tank and he only uses it when he needs it. You can always put it aside and turn that 6 months into 2-3 years. Plus after you take away your algae issue and your plants grow out you wont need it. 35$ 8 months is alright with me, compared to spending 400$ plus that 100$ UV bulb every year or less.
This is a good read. http://aquathusiast.com/review/green-killing-machine-internal-uv-sterilizer-with-power-head/


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## FromReefs2Plants

I was going to get one to use when I add fish, to cut down on the chance they would get and die from fish TB


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## hoppycalif

DutchMuch said:


> You say 6-8 months but you have to double that easily, Maryland guppy even has a UV in his/her tank and he only uses it when he needs it. You can always put it aside and turn that 6 months into 2-3 years. Plus after you take away your algae issue and your plants grow out you wont need it. 35$ 8 months is alright with me, compared to spending 400$ plus that 100$ UV bulb every year or less.
> This is a good read. http://aquathusiast.com/review/green-killing-machine-internal-uv-sterilizer-with-power-head/


That review is very good, and I don't doubt that a UV will get rid of green water. My comment was about keeping one of them constantly on to avoid losing fish to a disease. That is what would be very costly.


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## DutchMuch

hoppycalif said:


> That review is very good, and I don't doubt that a UV will get rid of green water. My comment was about keeping one of them constantly on to avoid losing fish to a disease. That is what would be very costly.


I see, even in that case I wouldn't use it 24/7 (during a quarantine) I would use it per the gallons per hour / the size of the tank.
Meaning that if it says 365GPH I would take how big the tank is, and do the math on how long it would take for all the tanks water to go through the UV and the (answer) time you get in return would be how long I'd keep it on per 1 Week. So you'd only have it on once per week if that makes sense.. or if you want to get really specific. Then I would look up how long it takes for TB to reoccur or take effect, and use it per that amt of time.

All this math is giving me a headache LOL


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## FromReefs2Plants

Yes, I was planning on doing it much like DutchMutch has described. Not 24/7. It has a flow of 120 gph, being a 55g tank that would take about 28 minutes to run the entire water volume thru the UV. Once A week seems like a good target, the manufacturer recommends 8 hours a day for 6-9 months. 28 minutes a week I think would have my bulb lasting for 2 years, then I would replace it even if the indicator still said it was fine. I don't want to get really specific and look into how long it takes TB to reoccur, so 28 minutes a week should be wavy gravy. 

Also, I am using Vigoro soil, it is quite similar to the organic miracle grow. I just had some on hand. It took i think 6 fill and skims to get the floaters out and the water clear enough to see my fingers in it. Now the soil is chilling on a tarp, soon to be wetted and dried x2. Then it seems I should mix it with some clay? Or perhaps something else? I have not tested my tap water yet, so I am not sure if it is hard or soft, for reference this is Orlando FL. 

No progress has been made on the stand since the last update, this week I should be able to cut more pieces of the trim. I think added 2x the width of the to the actual length of the piece I need will have my 45 corners matching up nicely. I have 5 more pieces to cut. Then bookshelves to install (pretty simple) as well as the cabinet door. Then it will be smooth sailing, I have a very simple 1" wide and quite thin trim to make the vertical corners where the thin plywood meets look nice, no angle cutting required either. Then it just needs a light sanding and some paint. 

The beams work light arrived, it is quite bright! We will see how it does, it was only $35 off of eBay


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## FromReefs2Plants

Update!

The stand just needs to be painted, so the things that come with that. Should be done in a few days.

As far as the soil goes, I have some flourite it seems like I should mix that with the soil yes? And also add some clay to that? What sort of clay is acceptable? I have no idea where to buy clay locally, home depot type store?


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## DutchMuch

Finally an update on this to feed my reading for today!!!

Love the trim


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## mbkemp

FromReefs2Plants said:


> Update!
> 
> The stand just needs to be painted, so the things that come with that. Should be done in a few days.
> 
> As far as the soil goes, I have some flourite it seems like I should mix that with the soil yes? And also add some clay to that? What sort of clay is acceptable? I have no idea where to buy clay locally, home depot type store?


Kitty litter that is unscented will add clay. I have seen some use clay from a craft store

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## hoppycalif

Craft store clay can be a problem. There are artificial clays, with polymers in them, that are not going to work as part of a substrate. You have to read the fine print and make sure you are getting real, pure clay. You can find clay for sale on the internet, but it can be hard to get the small amount you want. Kitty litter, the cheapest you can find, can be very good. Fluorite is a good top layer for a soil substrate, but I don't see a reason to mix it in the soil.

That's a very nice looking stand, too! Will there be doors for the larger open area?


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## FromReefs2Plants

The larger open area will be a bookshelf. Stand still needs to be painted, this project was pushed back a bit as other things (like finding a full-time job) are more important. I did find a part-time marketing gig for a startup so progress can begin again, still slowly though.

I found this clay here that I think will work very well. I plan to mix it in with the soil while everything is still dry. Any idea how much I should use? The bag is 1 pound. Here is where I found it and why I think it will work well for this usage.

Progress has been made!
Soil is in. I let it sit a a bucket, got the floaters out. Maybe did that 4 times. Then I spread it out on a tarp and let it get rained on for 1.5 months. I would mix it around to dry it out better. Thursday I sifted the soil into the tank. It is some very nice looking dirt now I say.








These wood chips n leaves were left behind








And here is the back of the tank painted black. It looks quite nice from the front and should let the plants pop quite nicely. 









Next is to paint the stand which I should get done next week. Then to get the clay and gravel topper. This is what I am going to with I am pretty sure.


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## hoppycalif

That sand is inert, so you can use pool filter sand and get the same effect at a lower price. For example http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11683357 There are several filter sands available on Amazon, but at a higher price, still less than the Caribsea sand.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Thanks hoppy i updated my list and will use that instead


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## FromReefs2Plants

What's this? An update without pictures? 

Sorry guys but yeah no pics this time. But! Good news indeed. The stand will be done this week, next Monday or Tuesday at the latest. I have finally found a good job again so this tank will be going up much more quickly now. The tank is dirted, I did end up buying the cheapest topsoil from HD to build it up to 1.5". The higher quality soil lost so much mass in the whole process it just wasn't enough. The cheap topsoil has no wood bits or any other floaters so that went much much faster. The sand cap is still waiting in the bag. Contacted a fellow hobbyist last night about plants, still waiting to hear back on that. 

The painting is 60% done on the stand. The more difficult prep stuff has been done. Now it is just building up coats giving them a bit of a sand then adding the high gloss clear coat. 

This will be my best stand yet, obviously still much worse than those with better skills but I am satisfied with it. Next week this bad boy should be wet and filled with its starting plants! That update will have plenty of pictures.


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## DutchMuch

phhh, pics dont mean everything, glad to hear things are going good...! Im currently struggling to find work, even with a beautiful resume xD *golf claps for you!* 

I sent u back a pm btw.


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## FromReefs2Plants

the stand is done, final coat is drying now. A great piece of Cyprus driftwood has been procured (36" long  ). That is now becoming waterlogged again.

Question: 

Is it a waste of money to get pretty shrimps form aquaticarts.com? What I mean is, will my fish nom them up? 
Planned fish:

koi angels
bossmani rainbows
guppies
longfin congo tetra
pleco

fish lists always change but that is what I'm thinking for now. prob a mix of guppies and neon tetras. I want a total school of small fries that numbers 30

I was also planning to add some thai micro crabs and a pom pom crab (had no idea those came in FW) same question though, any tiny crab eaters in that group?

and the small shrimps n crabs would be added after the plants have grown out to give them cover, they should also be able to get into places in the driftwood others couldnt


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## FromReefs2Plants

I think I have answered my own question about the small shrimps. I don't think I will add any to this tank.

Also decided to upload some stand pics before it gets the tank on it later today!

the front (door for right side not yet painted)









close up of the book shelf space sans the shelf (shelf not yet painted)









Side profile


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## hoppycalif

That's a very nice looking stand! I hate to rain on your parade, but storing books under an aquarium is.......iffy? Just decorative items would work fine, but books?


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## zolteeC

hoppycalif said:


> That's a very nice looking stand! I hate to rain on your parade, but storing books under an aquarium is.......iffy? Just decorative items would work fine, but books?


What's wrong with books there?


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## DutchMuch

zolteeC said:


> What's wrong with books there?


idk i think its a good aesthetic idea. Who would think to put books under an aquarium? I say go for it. Just careful not to get to much water on them when u get ur hands wet or something, i cant think of any other reasons Not to do it. Wanna see this happen :3


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## hoppycalif

zolteeC said:


> What's wrong with books there?


Aquariums often mean water sloshes out, drips out, sprays out, etc. I always assume anything under my tank might get pretty wet sometimes. Books that get wet are often ruined. Obviously you can be very careful and avoid any water getting out and onto stuff under the tank, but Murphy's Law would always be on my mind if I had books under my tank.

I have had several incidents with canister filters, enough that I now keep mine in a shallow pan under the tank. Once I had a shallow pan, with a drain line that went through the wall into the adjacent garage, under my canister filter, and I needed it when I goofed up reconnecting the hoses after cleaning the filter. (Off subject, but I once replaced a hose in my bathroom vanity, and woke up with water shooting up, flooding the bathroom, soaking down the wall to the room below. Since then I view water as my enemy!)


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## FromReefs2Plants

Just a simple HOB on this tank. I hate canister filters. I can't imagine water of any magnitude getting down on the books. I'll keep you guys posted though.

Thanks as well!

No thoughts on the shrimps and crabs?


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## DutchMuch

FromReefs2Plants said:


> Just a simple HOB on this tank. I hate canister filters. I can't imagine water of any magnitude getting down on the books. I'll keep you guys posted though.
> 
> Thanks as well!
> 
> No thoughts on the shrimps and crabs?


i have my canister (hydro prof. 350) sitting in a huge plastic tub xD i experienced the same thing hoppy did but only in the morning... very scary situation LOL

As for shrimps/crabs i say huge No No, as soon as you put them in their (the crabs) the tetras will eat them asap, then for the shrimps the angels would devour them... Ive seen angels that are ok with shrimps but seeing as you have the tetras, eeeh.... its a difficult situation for them. Prob. wouldn't breed.

So all in all i say save your $


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## FromReefs2Plants

okay thanks for the thoughts. I suspected that would be the case. Well, I will be setting up a shrimp and crab bowl in my new office in a few months i imagine.


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## DutchMuch

FromReefs2Plants said:


> okay thanks for the thoughts. I suspected that would be the case. Well, I will be setting up a shrimp and crab bowl in my new office in a few months i imagine.


Sounds cool, there is a guy on here who has a journal of his bowl NPT, hes got lower grade cherry shrimp in it with some snails (and of course plants) and it looks pretty cool


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## FromReefs2Plants

tank is a little ugly atm. the driftwood is still in the process of sinking. This will be all the plants until that goes in. That is why it looks pretty unorganized and plant heavy towards the end of the tank.

FTS









right side









left side









I will do a wc and get that dirt off the sand in a few days when the plants have time to root down some.


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## DutchMuch

looks good, will look 10x better when it grows out!


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## FromReefs2Plants

thanks dutch! i have a d3400 i will be snapping pics with once there is some growth. Gotta call nikon up the snapbridge doesn't seem to be working properly. those pics will be MUCH higher quality. the lud is in the corners as well. they are just short little fellows compared to the indica


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## FromReefs2Plants

tank looks much better already! i have added a some more plants and 10 fish. 6 tetra whose name i forgot. the back half of its body is a soft red. The other 4 are mollies. 

How often should I feed thses fish? In reef tanks, you are often feeding 2-4 times per day. also, any ideas for making my driftwood sink? Attaching something heavy to it perhaps?


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## DutchMuch

i feed my fish *doesn't matter to me what type* once every 2-3 days. And its only about 2 full pinches. Not much. 
Only because the mollies i have will graze on algae, and the predator fish will eat little critters.
This applies to high tech or low tech tanks. (meaning fish will eat smaller organisms in lower or higher tech environments.)


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## mysiak

I do the opposite, I am "forced" to overfeed in my heavily planted tanks (by "standard" rules), because:
1. fish are fast and many, they eat everything I give them (livebearers and couple of cardinal tetras)
2. if I want to feed shrimp, I must add more than fish can eat in short time, so they get a chance as well
3. if I want to feed snails, I must add even more food (MTS are ok, but ramshorn snails fail to breed heavily and don't really live long enough)
4. I'm not adding ferts with nitrogen, so I rely on fish food and poop to provide enough material for plants. Plants growth and water parameters tell me if I'm doing it good. 

Long story short - each tank is different and there are probably no universally applicable rules to apply. 

Regarding driftwood - just put rocks on it to weight it down. Every 1-2 weeks try to remove few rocks until they aren't needed anymore. In my tank it took about 4 weeks for the small driftwood and maybe 2-3 months for the big piece to fully sink..


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## FromReefs2Plants

i will give that a try thanks mysiak. Yeah I'm going to start off feeding every other day for now, and will go off of the fish and plant health.


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## dwalstad

I feed my fish 3 times a day. Fishfood feeds not only the fish but eventually the plants--thanks to nutrient recycling by snails, bacteria, protozoa, etc. Some hobbyists starve their fish and then add fertilizers for their plants. So sad and misguided.


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## FromReefs2Plants

okay i'll bump the feeding to everyday. growth is great! i'm going to try and get some cell phone pics in later today. I have given up on the snapbridge for my nikon and will just order a micro usb soon


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## DutchMuch

FromReefs2Plants said:


> okay i'll bump the feeding to everyday. growth is great! i'm going to try and get some cell phone pics in later today. I have given up on the snapbridge for my nikon and will just order a micro usb soon


Im sure your aware i have a canon rebel TI and it takes up to 480p, and it was like 500$ right, well im looking at this: https://www.amazon.com/Google-Pixel-Unlocked-64gb-Black/dp/B0766GHWM6
Cause it takes some of the best shots default ive ever seen. Especially of tanks. So im saving up for that, im not going to get a plan for it though. google pixel takes up to 1080p i gotta get updated with this new stuff!


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## mysiak

DutchMuch said:


> Im sure your aware i have a canon rebel TI and it takes up to 480p, and it was like 500$ right, well im looking at this: https://www.amazon.com/Google-Pixel-Unlocked-64gb-Black/dp/B0766GHWM6
> Cause it takes some of the best shots default ive ever seen. Especially of tanks. So im saving up for that, im not going to get a plan for it though. google pixel takes up to 1080p i gotta get updated with this new stuff!


A little off-topic, but you can use "Google camera" app on many phones (unofficially), you don't really have to buy a new Google phone. I am using it on cheap Xiaomi Mi A1 phone and most of my photos shared here are taken with gcam.


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## DutchMuch

mysiak said:


> A little off-topic, but you can use "Google camera" app on many phones (unofficially), you don't really have to buy a new Google phone. I am using it on cheap Xiaomi Mi A1 phone and most of my photos shared here are taken with gcam.


i own the cheapest flip phone on the market rn xD


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## FromReefs2Plants

my d3400 will take nicer than 480p haha. it will take up to 6000x4000 pics. it captures black dogs much better than any phone camera i've yet used.


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## FromReefs2Plants

some pics! No FTS this time tho sorry m8s

right side








my fav plant








my current fave in tank fish, he has bright green scales that you can kind of see here








right side more zoomed out








left side








other fave plant


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## DutchMuch

i see you have a liking for the arcuata :3
I have never been able to achieve this... But in VERY high light situations, it gets a stunning almost rotala mini butterfly type of red. It also turns yellow in some cases, or just green. Very customizable plants i also have a liking for. 
What type of red fish are those, tetras? i like their color. 
Cant wait to see this grow out, very interested especially with that large plant (aponogetton?)


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## FromReefs2Plants

yes they are some sort of tetra. next time i go to the lfs im going to make a list of everything that I have so I can know. and i think that is the correct plant ID on that big boi. The leaves feel really cool, reminds me of lettuce haha.


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## FromReefs2Plants

the large lettuce-like plant has doubled in size since I got in last weekend! it is touching the top of the water now


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## DutchMuch

FromReefs2Plants said:


> the large lettuce-like plant has doubled in size since I got in last weekend! it is touching the top of the water now


Dang, nice growth  
the lettuce plant you speak of, is Aponogeton boivinianus i believe...
My tank is also doing very good, i think your tanks good growth rubbed off on mine! Thanks! lol.


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## FromReefs2Plants

yes that is indeed it. just easier for me to remember and spell out lettuce plant haha. I'm the same with reef tanks. I would go as far as it is an acan, but i wouldn't say or try to remember the specific scientific name. Vendors often list them as cherry red or galaxy etc. looks like it gets quite big! I'll keep you guys posted on how large it grows. update your thread and i'll check out this growth. I saw you got bleach in it not to long ago. i bet that was awful.


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## DutchMuch

FromReefs2Plants said:


> I saw you got bleach in it not to long ago. i bet that was awful.


Stayed up for 4 hours crying  some of the fish that died where special to me. 
nothing made it... reason i started the 40b so i guess, in a way, it was a good thing  and ill update tonight... stay tuned!


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## dwalstad

FromReefs2Plants said:


> I'll keep you guys posted on how large it grows. update your thread and i'll check out this growth.


Nice pictures and fish. I hope that you are enjoying your new tank!

That's great that your AB (_Aponogeton boivinianus_)--a truly magnificent plant and good grower-- has taken off.


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## FromReefs2Plants

thank you!! I am really enjoying and my fiancee is as well. I can tell she likes it much more than she thought she would. 

I also picked up 5 more fish today. two lyretail swords one different sword (only bottom part of tail is long) and two turquoise bossmani. Pics will prob ne uploaded tomorrow once they adapt some. The lyretail's are amazing. I am hoping the bossmani color up quite nicely as they feel more at home in my tank


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## FromReefs2Plants

bad news! looking for advice. 

The two lyretails have the beginnings of ick! No other fish is affected. I didn't see it on them in the store. I assume it was the stress of moving them back and transferring that caused them to show symptoms. 

I have a 10g 29g or even a 40b that i could use as a QT tank. No other fish are showing, all other fish seem to be very healthy. Bright colors, readily eating. I went ahead and fed the fish when I noticed to keep their health up. I am about to do a 50% wc as well. 

Any suggestions?


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## FromReefs2Plants

And I don't mean tell me how to treat ich. I am quite familiar with the different options. I more mean in this natural method what have others done? I am worried that moving the lyretails to a QT will put a lot of stress on them which will make them worse. At this point, they have just a few dots each.


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## dwalstad

Oh, how fish diseases spoil the fun of aquarium keeping and buying new fish! Believe me, I've been there.

I would move ANY fish showing white spots immediately into a separate tank. When those white pimples "pop" in a day or two, they will flood the tank with swarmers to infect other fish. If you catch it in time, you may be able to protect the other fish.

I would add salt to the water in quarantine tank to kill the swarmers. The Ich parasite swarmer apparently cannot tolerate over 1 ppt salinity (0.1% salt) according to Dr. Ed Noga, textbook disease authority.

Since you're a former saltwater guy, I'll let you figure out how to achieve this final salt concentration. A 1 ppt salinity may injure some plant species, so I'm not sure that I would add salt to your planted tank.


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## FromReefs2Plants

does the type of salt matter? I assume reef salt would be best. thank you for your reply


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## FromReefs2Plants

unrelated, one of my black mollies died today. Very strange. It just stopped moving, and eventually died. It was max size so i have no idea how old it could have been. All other fish are quite happy looking and very active. The two lyretails have been moved to the 10g tank. hopefully no other fish comes down with ich. I tested the water and it's all good. 0's and a good ph. No obvious signs of ailment. I inspected it in bright light.


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## DutchMuch

One of my black pearl mollies died today to! wasn't acting weird or anything, but i did dose levi the previous day (med for a type of parasite, but he didn't have it), was weird.
Rip. your black molly.


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## dwalstad

FromReefs2Plants said:


> unrelated, one of my black mollies died today. Very strange. It just stopped moving, and eventually died. It was max size so i have no idea how old it could have been. All other fish are quite happy looking and very active. The two lyretails have been moved to the 10g tank. hopefully no other fish comes down with ich. I tested the water and it's all good. 0's and a good ph. No obvious signs of ailment. I inspected it in bright light.


My experience with purchased fish is that you can expect some death and disease, no matter what you do. My article 'Parasite Surveys of Aquarium Fish' (available for free download on my website: https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/   shows that most healthy fish are carrying low numbers of of parasites when you buy them in the store. The trick is to weed out the sick ones and protect the survivors.

Here's a story for you. I bought 2 Turquoise Blue guppies from PetSmart. They had just come in that day. The salesperson warned me that the fish needed to acclimate at least a day from the shipping. Well, I was determined to get them that afternoon, and ignored her warning. They were beautiful but never mated the females and died two weeks later.

A couple months later, I went back to try again--and apologize. I bought 4 Turquoise Blue males (from same strain) and put them in saltwater quarantine 4 days and had a vet autopsy two of them. They were clean. No mycobacteriosis, no nothing. One died. Since then, the surviving male has sired a whole bunch of nice progeny.

I think what you are doing--removing the sick ones and carefully monitoring your stock is right on!


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## FromReefs2Plants

The lyretails look good (with a few white dots) in QT. Reef salt was picked up and that treatment will begin tomorrow. I also have a new heater coming in for the 55g, i will use it on the qt to give it the heat treatment as well. I placed the sponge from the filter on the 55g into the 10g to give that tank some bacteria. The 10g has a little spillway hob and heater in it. As well as a bright light that I only turn on to inspect the fish.


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## FromReefs2Plants

lyretails still looking good. Salt treatment has been going for about 18 hours. I've been doing research, but i'm not too sure how long to do the salt treatment for?


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## dwalstad

FromReefs2Plants said:


> lyretails still looking good. Salt treatment has been going for about 18 hours. I've been doing research, but i'm not too sure how long to do the salt treatment for?


I would treat the fish for 5-8 days to kill all the "swarmers" released by ALL the pimples. (Many of the pimples will be in the gills where you can't see them and each pimple releases about 300 swarmers.) I assume that you have the tanks around 80F. At lower temperatures, you'll have to wait longer.

Information below from: Fish Diseases by Dr. Gottfried Schubert; T.F.H. Publications, 1987, 125 pages. 
Ich cysts are 1,000 microns (1 mm) in size, and the ich swarmers are 30 microns. Temperature greatly influences all developmental processes. At 27C, the cysts (white pimples on the fish) stay attached for 4-5 days (at 50C, cysts may stay attached for 4 weeks or more). After the cysts drop off the fish, they settle and must attach to a solid object in order to develop further. In 18-20 hours (at 27C), each cyst will release about 300 swarmers, which can infect fish for the next 30 min to 48 hours.

You have prompted me to dig up an old article I did on ICH and pull out the data.

Would you please tell us what salt concentration you chose? Results?


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## mysiak

For ich removal I can't recommend Esha Exit enough. It makes wonders, kills ich in all its forms and usually removes everything in just about 2-3 days of treatment. Absolutely safe with plants, shrimps, snails, .. and you don't have to perform large water change as with other products or raise temperature (some plants/fish don't like it for too long). The only small disadvantage is that it can stain white porous material (ornaments, cables..) to blue/green color.

http://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-exit.html


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## FromReefs2Plants

Right now the water is at 1.008 sp. I choose this based on your rec of 1PPT haha. I am at work now, but I can update when I get home. I will be changing a bit of the water.

The eSHA Exit looks quite expensive for me to acquire in the US haha


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## dwalstad

Thanks for salt information!

I couldn't find the active ingredients for Esha EXIT listed on its website. (This always annoys me.) However, I did find a listing on another forum: 
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/medications-ingredients-disease-treated.33204/

Information from the above website: _Esha Exit ACTIVE INGRED: diaminoacridine 6.3 mg, veride malachitum 0.31 mg, methylrosanilinii chloridum 0.79 mg, methylthioninii chloridum 3.98 mg ad Aqua. (basically its Acridine, Malachite Green, Meth.Violet, Meth. Blue)_

I don't particularly like acridine (a potential carcinogen) and dyes. While the Esha Exit product may be the ultimate Ich killer and/or the fishlore data could possibly be incorrect (?), I would give salt a chance to work.


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## mysiak

Esha Exit seems to be really expensive in the US, so it's probably out of the question for you guys anyway. I bought it for about 10usd and it's one of the cheapest Ich meds around here.

Thank you for your comments about the ingredients and salt recommendation. I am always a bit reluctant to add salt to the main tank with plants, so if it's necessary to treat the whole tank (as with Ich), I prefer "safe" meds and use salt for single fish treatment only.


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## dwalstad

Thanks for clarification. (A lot of things will cure Ich, including just moving the fish to a new tank every 24 hours, as in the "Transfer Method.") 

The main thing, though, is that you got rid of the Ich in your fish.


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## FromReefs2Plants

The salt method didn't seem to be working. Then I noticed in my display tank ich appearing on my tetras. Next, I went to PetSmart and purchased API's Super Ick Cure and dosed it first in the main tank then the following day in my QT tank when I was sure the lyretails were not getting better.

That was 3 days ago for the main tank and 2 days ago for the QT. Everyone in the main tank looks excellent, all spots are now gone. Even the nerite snails survived the treatment. Plants appeared unaffected and the Aponogeton boivinianus is still growing at a super fast rate. It is even larger now than when I took these pictures on Friday.

I lost 1 lyretail shortly after starting the API treatment, it was just too weak by that point I think. The spots got really bad on them. The other lyretail seems to be in great health now and looks much better. The long-tailed swordtail died for unknown reasons. I suspect that is what introduced ich to that tank as it came from the same tank as the lyretails at the store. It was just showing no signs of ich so I left it in the display tank. When it died it was not covered in any visible signs of ich.

In the future, I will QT all new fishies in the 10g tank for one week. Might as well I have all the needed equipment.

FTS









Nerite Snail









Some growth in the Aponogeton boivinianus









the tetras, you can see the receding ich spots









one of two blueboi bossmanis









a mollie i believe









floating stems









the spread of the big poppy









right side









left side









plant pic


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## DutchMuch

looks better everyday!


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## dwalstad

Thanks for the update. It is useful information, plus knowing that 0.1% salt didn't work. I'm so glad that the API Super Ich Cure worked!


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## FromReefs2Plants

oops accidentally did two pics of the right side. Oh well haha. thanks you two! Yeah i like to keep my tank journal updated with everything I do so others (and myself) can use it as a reference in the future. 

If you want to learn how to go from knowing nothing to having a successful reef tank I have a thread for you.


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## FromReefs2Plants

I have one lyretail left, started with two in QT. It still has some sort of white spot ina couple places on its fin. I will attach a pic tomorrow. 

The fish in the DT are completely clear of ich! Lost no one from there. All look very healthy and my blue boys are getting bigger and bluer every day.

The plants have grown quite a lot. The Aponogeton boivinianus is huge now! It could easily stretch it leaves the full 48" of the tank if I pulled them straight. The lud and the stem plant have both reached the water's surface on both sides of the tank. The duckweed has grown a whole bunch! I love the stuff so I am happy about that. I never even added it to my tank. After a couple weeks of having plants, I noticed one of the little guys. You will see how many there are now with the new pictures. 

For now, I am just letting things grow before I add any more fish or plants. For next fish, I am planning on adding three panda angelfish. I have decided to QT future purchases for a few days at least since I have the equipment.


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## DutchMuch

we need an FTS!!!!
good update tho.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Grumbles no one posts pictures when they say they will! Haha sorry I am one of these people as well. I think the lyretail is good to go back to the display, but I would like some input on that. With these pictures, please scroll back up to the picture of the floating stems/duckweed as this new pic is VERY different. I also picked up 7 more fish today. 6x guppies. 3x dumbo ear 3x blue Moscow. 1x the blue eye yellow bushy face pleco. A small fellow at about 2" right now. Already very active and I can see his clean marks on my mag-float as he makes them. Very cool to watch.

The pics didn't come out as well this time, I am still quite the novice when it comes to DLSR's and taking quality pictures.

FTS









blueboi









two guys









new pleco









tetra check in









dumbo ear gup









left side









centerish









right side









top of right side









top of left side









floating plants









ready to go back?

























I believe he is, I don't think those marks are any sort of disease or infection. Scars perhaps? Damaged fins? Let me know your thoughts


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## FromReefs2Plants

I added the lyretail back to the display. He looks very beautiful with the long fins. Will continue monitoring his health. I felt the DT was the best place for him to restore any dmg to his fins from his time in QT.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Let there be babies!! 4 of these little guys and gals.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Will post a pic of this soon, the floating plants and duckweed have formed a decently solid platform. So much so the hydro sib from dutch much is growing out of it like it was soil!

Views and no comments, come peeps I know you're out there!


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## FromReefs2Plants

long time no update!

This is just a quick one, with cell phone pics. so not really possible for me to capture my quick moving fish. As when i come to the tank, they all come out in case it is feeding time.

I feed them once per day, in the evening. That has been working well for me. I went thru a month of losing fish, to a marine velvet like disease. I have since added a UV, which i run whenever i add a fish and have had no loses since then.

Fish list is currently:

6x neon tetras
3x van rio tetras
3x assorted angelfish
2x turquoise rainbowfish
2x lyretail mollies ( or something)
2x fancy guppy, one male one female, surprisingly, no babies. guess they are not compatible? I got them from petsmart, not sure on specifics

plants are still going strong, at some point i will need to prune one back. I have started to do so.

FTS









left side









right side









middle


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## Michael

Great to hear from you, the tank looks wonderful!


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## FromReefs2Plants

thank you michael!


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## dwalstad

Good job!


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## FromReefs2Plants

Here is a tiny update.

I may be helping a coworker on his journey into the blue world. Going to possibly start with a 10g tank (also my first tank) and use this wonderful method. Thank you @Diane Walstad for pioneering and also making it well known on the internet!

Here is the first FTS i have ever taken for this tank









Here is one from my Pixel 2 just a couple days ago.









And here is my current star of the tank


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## LeTort

Thx a lot for this awesome thread! Your tank looks outstanding! That growth looks amazing. I found this forum only few days ago, and every thread inspires me alot to start my own "el natural" tank, I think I`ll do it in a month or two (even start to do som kind of estimate). Keep posting, your expiriense of setting up and maintaining NPT is realy helpful! Cheers


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## FromReefs2Plants

LeTort said:


> Thx a lot for this awesome thread! Your tank looks outstanding! That growth looks amazing. I found this forum only a few days ago, and every thread inspires me a lot to start my own "el natural" tank, I think I`ll do it in a month or two (even start to do some kind of estimate). Keep posting, your experience of setting up and maintaining NPT is really helpful! Cheers


You are welcome! Thank you, kind sir/madam.

I create these build threads to help myself and to help others.

I put very little thought into plant placement. I think next time I will do more research, get my hardscape in, drain the water down, and use my tweezer set to plant the basically 80% of plants I want in the tank.

Build the plant scape off of the hardscape. Have a good layout of foreground, midground, and background plants.

I will probably do that in this tank at some point. I added a piece of that cypress driftwood I got a WHILE ago to my tank today. I will get a picture at some point. It is just chilling horizontally about 85% submerged.

It has been soaking in dechlorinated water this whole time. About 2 months ago I cut it into 3 pieces realizing that one massive piece just wasn't going to cut it. The 3 pieces came out really well and I think it will make for a better scape this way. I use a brick to keep the pieces submerged in the plastic trashcan. In this container, I also have a maxiJet 1200 running to keep the water agitated thus preventing bugs laying eggs in it.

I have had that pump since 2008. It's still going strong! Goodness does it put off some heat though. That is the best thing about new pumps. More silent and runs colder.

Feel free to ask any questions.


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## dwalstad

That Angel Fish looks pretty sure of himself. I doubt that you'll *ever* see a baby guppy in a tank with Angelfish!

It looks like your stem plants are starting to retreat and the strong rooted plants (Amazon Swordplant and Crypts) are starting to fill in. This is a typical progression for many plant tanks.

I was very glad to hear that the fish deaths stopped.

Thanks for giving us an uplifting update!


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## FromReefs2Plants

That angelfish has grown to 3x the size since I got him just about 3 months ago.

I have the livebearers to provide food for them (and any other fish) haha. 

The stems plants were going banana's. I spent about an hour cutting it back to that area. I traded into one of my LFS for $75 of store credit. They have yet to resurge as strongly. 

Harder to see in that FTS, but I added a Madagascar Lace to kind of balance what I call the lettuce plant on the left side of the tank. They are both quite large now. The Lace actually sent up a bloom after a month in my tank. That stem was almost 3 ft long!


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## dwalstad

I'm really impressed that your Madagascar Lace bloomed. At one time, this was considered the ultimate plant.


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## FromReefs2Plants

I did a bit of clean up of the tank yesterday and cut the damaged/browned leaves off of my lettuce plant and its down to just 2 stems!

I think it is time for a clay fertilizing ball to be added to its roots. 

Am I to just make this ball out of clay? Or a bit of clay and soil?

Meanwhile, the entire left side of the tank is looking a bit light, especially since the indica rotala and Madagascar lace are growing well.


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## dwalstad

FromReefs2Plants said:


> I think it is time for a clay fertilizing ball to be added to its roots.
> 
> Am I to just make this ball out of clay? Or a bit of clay and soil?


We have a report of success (see below) using clay balls with compost inside. In my opinion, clay + soil (or clay + compost) would be better than clay alone.

https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/104434-fertilizer-balls-contains-clay-compost.html


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## FromReefs2Plants

I decided to leave the lettuce plant alone, and it sent up a few more stems, but not like in the past. It must have an enormous root system I am thinking. I will make a clay and dirtball fertilizer over the next week and will bury next to its base.

I am going to make 3 tiny balls, so I can get good coverage on where its base for sure is.

I gave the tank a much-needed service today and this is where we are at.

I started things off with a water change. I have since moved the tank from the living room to the guest room. That was about 3 months ago. So since it got about a 95% water change, this is its first one.

No longer as nicely located next to a window that has a flower bed underneath it, that avenue of watering that flowerbed with my 55g's "dirty" waterchange water was no more.

I opted to purchase a 20' vinyl hose and drained in thru a different window into a 5g bucket, then dump that onto flowers/plants.

Here you can see the power of gravity at work









A closeup of the bucket









And some low-quality tank pictures.

Of course my #1 homie Mr. Angelfish. He is the clear capo di tutti i capi (mafia for boss of all bosses) fish of the tank.









Here are two pictures of my second favorite fish, Mr. turquoise rainbowfish. There were two, but one grew and one didn't and then the one that didn't died. It makes me think it was two males and one became dominant and the other an outcast. Not all fish reassign nicely like wrasses and clownfish 

You can set his color quite clearly in this picture, and Mr. Angelfish is lurking in the background, since it's his tank after all.









And in this one you can see he is starting to get his mature body shape.









Below you will see that with the holding power of one brick broken in half, the nice bit of the wood finally sunk to the bottom of the tank.

I would estimate about one year of submerging that piece of (dry) Cypress wood to get it to this point. Most likely could have been done faster. 
Left side of the tank.









Right side









FTS


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## dwalstad

Congratulations on getting the tank back on track after moving! I'm sure it was an ordeal and that the fish are as glad as you are to be settled in.

What are the particles in the water? (Otherwise, the tank looks quite nice.)


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## FromReefs2Plants

Not the best quality but a then and now for my rainbow fish.

smol fish









More Recent









My angelfish spawned recently as well! They did not do well at all raising these. I think the next generation will be more successful.









Just the eggs


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## FromReefs2Plants

Just a small update.

The female angelfish died after I added some mollies from pet smart 

the male angelfish









the now massive Madagascar lace









this monster plant in the middle of the tank


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## FromReefs2Plants

Hello Guys wake up! I don't like talking to myself all that much!

Here are some cell phone pics I took today post giving the tank a lil lovin. Did a 25g water change, cleaned the filter, replaced the carbon. I also added a little koralia nano and the fish are loving the flow!

Here is a FTS









One of my yellow male mollies









This plant that has created it's own little forest!









The little powerhead that could









This is what the filter inside of my aquaclear looks like, I am on month 6 I think? It's just a big bacteria farm at this point. I just wash it under the tap to get gunk out. 









And of course, the star of the show, Mr. Angelfish









Please let me know any thoughts you have about the tank!


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## Coolyokeluke

Beautiful tank.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## dwalstad

Looks like a happy tank to me!


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## FromReefs2Plants

thanks everyone! This tank is really satisfying to watch.

Here is a low quality pic of the angel to show how thicc he has gotten. He comes right up to anyone who stands in front of the glass.


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## FromReefs2Plants

In the coming month or two I will be moving to GA. I have been thinking about this tank and where I want it to go. 

Once I am employed again and living in my next home, I am going to start the process of cooking up some more dirt. 

I am going to redo this tank, keeping only the plants I like and getting rid of the others. I am going to get some better driftwood and add rocks to make a decent hardscape. 

I will order some more plants and actually plant them in a thought out manner. I will add more fish to bring the numbers up to where they should be. 

How many angelfish should I have in this tank? I am thinking adding 3 more to have a total of 4. Will add 5 or so more rainbowfish and mollies at a ratio of 3/1 female to male to ensure lots of babies for the angels to eat. 

This is the plan for now anyway. The only for sure details are adding more angelfish and relaunching the substrate with mas plants. 

If there are any NPT must have plants you feel should be in the tank please comment them below and I will do my best to incorporate them!

Also please let me know your favorite or preferred vendor to buy live plants from!


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## FromReefs2Plants

Hello Everyone!

I am moving to Central FL to ATL, GA on 8/13. This tank is making the move as well.

This tank has done what I planned for it and that is shown me the basics of the NPT and where it can go. 

As a result, once I am gainfully employed again (COVID) I am going to relaunch this tank. New substrate, new wood, and new plants. Now that I know so much more about scaping these tanks, the direction will be rainbowfish and angels. I will try to achieve a scape that allows enough room for their movements. 

I love how cheap these tanks are to stock and will be get these changes done as fast as I can. The new home also has room for a garden pond so I will be building one to house some shebukin goldfish.


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## FromReefs2Plants

Hello Everyone,

I have decided not to relaunch the tank, but rather work with what I have already. That said I may add some new driftwood to it. I am hoping after a few years submerged my cypress is ready to not float. Will remove the bricks soon and find out.

Unfortunately when I moved from FL>GA and placed the tank in the basement, I didn't really think about needing a bigger heater. Temp dropped to 63 degrees for many weeks, killing my large angelfish . During this time I was focused on the reef tank. Not an excuse and I still feel awful, as I grew that lil guy from size of a quarter to size of my hand.

Tank sat with no fish for a month or two after bringing temp up to 78. Tank now has 3x quarter sized marble angelfish and 3x guppies (2x female 1x male). There is no better food for my angels than livebearer fry!

I am hoping to pump up the livebearer numbers, and I also want to get 3-5 rainbow fish in here. Those are my favorite fw fish I think.

In an effort to make do with what I already have, I am go to replant the left side of the tank, about 18" of length. I want to actually do some back/mid/fore plants here. Anyone have any suggestions? I was thinking larger swords for the back, but no idea of the mid or foreground.

Some low quality cell pics below so you can see where the tank is at now. You can see it is heavily dominated by a few species.


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## dwalstad

Looks like you've got your tank going again. Crypts look very healthy. Maybe a few more Crypt species?

The last picture shows some clumps of matt algae. I would get in there with an old toothbrush and pull it out.

That Amazon swordplant to the right of the Crypts doesn't look like it's doing very well. I would try to get it fixed up. You could try putting it into its own pot with soil or add a substrate fertilizer [i.e., push short (1/4 inch) pieces of Job's houseplant sticks around its root perimeter].


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## FromReefs2Plants

Thanks Diane. I will add some fert for for the sword. I could tell its looking weak. I will look up some other crypt species, as those are doing very well. Grew from one plant if I remember correctly.


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## FromReefs2Plants

I am planning on giving this tank some loving this weekend. I have some calcium powder I will make some balls out of and place with the struggling sword. 

I found a local person who sold me 6x young rainbow fish for $3 each! Looks like a mix of bossmani and turquoise. He also sold me 3x young guppies, very pretty parents. I think the smallest got munched soon after entering the tank. The other two are large enough to avoid that fate I believe. 

But this got me thinking, I was going to set up a shrimp tank but instead I think I will set up a 10g el natural guppy growout tank. This way I can farm them for sale and for food very easily.

I also got a few vals I planted in the back left corner of the tank. 

I am really hoping the rainbows all grow up!


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## FromReefs2Plants

I ordered 50x of the Rob sticks for the sword and any other ailing plant in the future. Hoping to get out this weekend or the next and find some more crypt species to add. 

The calcium powder I have is calcium montmorillonite clay for pond clarity and color. So I sprinkled it across the top. I used this in the soil when I first started. I will do this sprinkle for a while and see if I notice any changes.


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## dwalstad

Sounds good. Let us know how it works out.


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## seadreamer90

Beautiful! While I can appreciate a well thought out scape I’m far more fond of the wild jungle look.


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## FromReefs2Plants

thank you Seadreamer!

I did a 10g water change, removed the plant on the right side, added a single half inch job stick to the sword, removed the bricks on the cypress wood, and sucked out some of the dirt/mulm that is on top of the sand.

I reached out to a fellow on craiglist about a school of red minor tetras he has for sale. They look quite nice so hopefully he doesn't want too much for them.


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## FromReefs2Plants

What's that? It's time for another low quality photo update! The glass still needs to be cleaned, and there still is a long way to go, but I think it looks much better now.

FTS Before








FTS After








Largest Angel








Baby Gup








New Vals








Potato Shot of the Rainbow school









I am so so excited for the rainbows to color up. It looks like I have 3 different kinds in the school of 6 I have.

Some FTS over the life of the tank


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## dwalstad

Last photo shows a beautiful tank. Swordplant looks much happier!

Is that a _Aponogeton madagascariensis_ hiding in the background? Such an exotic plant. (It's the one plant I always wanted!)


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## FromReefs2Plants

Yes I believe it was. Those pictures are from a while ago. Both that and the madagascar lace did great then died. Would putting a fert stick in their roots kept them alive?


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## dwalstad

I could not tell which pictures were taken when and don't know what FTS is.

(Folks, you only need to show a 2-3 pictures to give us the idea.)

_A. madagascariensis_ needs a rest period and cool water temperature. I don't think fertilizer would have helped.

However, fertilizer sticks (containing N,P,K, etc) should have helped with the Amazon Swordplant. If it died, it suggests that there's not enough calcium in the water. Have you checked your GH? What is your water source?


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## FromReefs2Plants

finally, this site got an update!

My water source is city, hose to be exact. I don't know what GH is.. haha. FTS is full tank shot. That was an FTS over the tanks life post..


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## dwalstad

FromReefs2Plants said:


> My water source is city, hose to be exact. I don't know what GH is.


GH is a measure of how much calcium and magnesium is in your water. Amazon swordplants, in particular, need to have calcium in water. Possibly, your city water is softwater with little calcium. If you are happy with your tank and plant growth, GH doesn't matter. If you think there's room for improvement, I would learn what GH is and find out what the hardness is of your city water.


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## FromReefs2Plants

ahh. I'm used to measuring those two independently. Ca and Mg. i'll check it out thanks


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## FromReefs2Plants

Hello All, 

I made a lot of mistakes with this tank, including killing my fish due to not QTing them. I had enough (and I REALLY HATE 55gs, got this tank for free) so I sold the tank and the remaining fish. 

I did set up a 10g guppy tank with the lessons learned here, including QT of the fish. It has 4 females (one super female) and 2 males (one supermale), as well as a betta and of course many babies. 

I took some quick pictures today. Eventually, I will set up a 75g or 125g planted tank. Bit of an algae issue, christmas was blocking the tank so I haven't done any maintenance for awhile until today. 

the big momma









quick FTS









the betta


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## dwalstad

I see a lot of algae smothering the plants. All those bubbles are from oxygen produced by algal photosynthesis. Not good.

My advice: 

Start a new El Natural thread for your new 10 gal tank--and a New Year (you are confusing me with all your previous tanks and posts)
Stop the filter. A hang-on-the back filter will degas off CO2. Use only to increase water circulation if fish start gasping for air.
Add floating plants to increase plant competition with algae. 
Find out what your water hardness is and make sure that the GH is greater than 5. Use an API liquid drop-by-drop kit, not a test strip, which are useless. Or get water hardness information from your water department. 
I would get this tank, which has potential, in better shape before moving on to something larger.


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