# High KH and a low GH......low iron...... what to do ?



## Tominizer (May 13, 2009)

I did a search and I've been reading as much as I can about this stuff ..... and I glanced again at the D. Walstad book last night.... and I'm not sure if I'm finding the info I need to understand fully the KH/GH/pH issues or if I'm just moron. So I'm going to madly type out here some of the concerns off the top of my head about my tank right now :typing:



Tank setup:
100 gallon tank has the basic NPT style setup with 1" soil substrate covered with fine rock substrate. 
Lighting is around the recommended levels of 1.5 watts per gallon for 10 hours per day.
Plants are ok........ but not great. Growth is slow. Amazon Sword has taken a real beating though and is not doing well. A while back I had a single runner that produced another 5 plants but they are all now suffering.
Fish seem to be happy. 80 tetras. 
Temp has been fluctuating between 76 and 79 degrees
Tank is located in the basement at the bottom of the open stairs so very minimal natural light.
Nitrates, nitrites, ammonia......... all seem to be ok and within the desired ranges.
Tank setup is coming up on a year old.


KH/GH/PH:

I tested GH and KH yesterday and my KH is really high while my GH is around 7-8 (still needs to be lower but the KH is a LOT higher...... double or more as it was off the testing kit scale). We do not have a water softener in the house. So do these results indicate that the city is softening the water or is the GH high enough that it's hard water ? I'm confused.

On the hardness issue, am I correct in assuming that my tank water is too hard and needs to be adjusted? If so, what recommendations? Buying RO water......... not a big fan of that. Living in the frozen wastelands of Canada minimizes rain water ............. although I guess I could melt buckets of snow!! Hey Tom, what are you doing. I'm melting snow. For what? For my fish tank ........... yeah ! How about my peat filter system ? Or am I missing the boat here !?!?


Ok, that finding snapped on the light bulb in my head with regards the issue I've always had with the difficulties in adjusting my pH.......... which is likely due to the buffering effects of the high KH. My pH is at 7.8 when measured this week. I think that's ok!?!?

I also have a cannister filter that runs through a filter bag of peat moss ........... which I think needs to be changed. In my crazy lack of time lifestyle, I haven't tested before and after to see if there are any benefits from that setup yet. This week when I change the peat, I'm going to test it before and after. On that note.......... for those running peat in a filter........ how long are you guys keeping the peat in the filter before swapping it out for fresh peat?


Iron:

Tested for chelated and non-chelated iron levels. Both showing zero. [smilie=q: Should I be concerned about that ?????


TDS:
Can someone highlite the importance of this to me and .......... it's something I'm not sure I'm understanding the importance of.






Anyways, I'm still in rookie status for planted tanks as I'm trying to still absorb as much information as I can. I'm definitely not up to speed on this stuff yet........... but it's coming. Thanks for listening to my rambling.................


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

Well the I dont know issues with easy plants and kH and pH, I use valls, sagitarias and ferns and anubias i my African Chiclid tank and the rocs are dead corals so the pH is on 8 and kH, Gh need to be very high. Other delicate and difficult plants will die surely. The Iron defficensy is bad. You need good iron levels but wait, if the iron is on the substrate and not in the water the test will show 0. I use Clay in my tanks for that reasons, all rooted plants is doing great, in the other side stems plant need nutrients in the water column, I make this by feeding fish, if you have a lot of plants you need a lots of fish. Inthe tanks that I have little quantity of fish I need to dose KNO3 and sometimes MICROS.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

With the water naturally like that I would switch over to hard water fish. Trying to change water that has too high GH or KH means filtering out those minerals. Reverse Osmosis would remove the minerals. Mixing a certain amount of tap water with a certain amount of RO would create water with just the right level of minerals for whichever fish you want to keep. It would mean always using RO water, and re-creating the blend for every water change. 
Living with it, and going along with what works best in your water without altering it is a lot easier.

1.5 wpg, but no natural light is a bit too low. When I changed from about 1 or so wpg, to 2 wpg + sunlight all the plants started doing better. I would try to increase the light to about 2 wpg, and lengthen the day to 12+ hours.

I also cannot test iron in the water of my tanks. I think it is chelated in the soil, or the high cationic exchange capacity of the soil has removed the iron from the water. The plants are the best test for iron. They are not showing iron deficiencies, so there is enough iron. This supports my idea that the soil is holding the iron, bound in a way the plants can get it, but it is not free in the water to show on a test. Soil Master Select, Turface, and natural soils with a certain amount of clay and organic matter are very good at this. If the plants are showing iron deficiency, then you might have to supplement with iron.

Fish for hard water tank, that do not eat plants:
Many Rainbows. A few species might nip the tender new growth, but I have not had problems. 
Most livebearers. Though some (mollies) will eat algae, I have not seen them eat plants. They might, though, eat softer plants. 
Rift Lake Cichlids. Gotta be really careful here. Many will eat plants, and most will dig. Look into the Lake Tanganyikan fish such as Shell Dwellers, (they dig, a lot) and Cyprichromis (upper level fish)
Very few Tetras, Barbs, Rasboras... only a few are OK with harder water. 
Many Catfish are quite adaptable, and there are cats from the rift lakes that handle hard water without a problem.

TDS is Total Dissolved Solids. Minerals, salts... everything in the water. 
Fish live in balance with the minerals and salts in the water. They evolved to handle either soft water, hard water or salt water. Some fish can switch back and forth. 
The fishes' cells act like semi-permeable membranes. The fish have some control of which materials can enter and leave their cells, but cannot control everything. 
When the fish is in water that has very few minerals in it, less minerals than are in the fishes' cells, the water surrounding the fish keeps trying to get into the fish. Trying to dilute the mineral level in the cells to match the lake water. (Yea, I know the water isn't really thinking or trying to do anything, but it does enter the fish) The fish that have evolved in such soft water are very good at grabbing every mineral that comes by, not very good at releasing excess minerals, and very good at getting rid of excess water that keeps entering their system. They pee a lot of very dilute urine to get rid of the excess water. They are so good at taking in and holding the minerals they need that when they are in water that has an abundance of these minerals some fish accumulate too much, and die. (Cardinal Tetras, for example accumulate calcium). 
Fish that live in hard water are not so good at snatching every mineral that comes their way, and can get rid of excess minerals if needed. They are not very efficient at getting rid of excess water. If they are in water that is too soft they can take in too much water, get sick and die. 
An extreme case is ocean fish. So much salt keeps entering their system some fish have special ways just to get rid of the salt. They hold onto water, they keep just the minerals they need, and get rid of the rest. Their urine is very high in minerals.

This balance of the fish body chemistry with the minerals and salts in the water is osmotic regulation.

Fish can change, adapt to water with varying levels of minerals and salts. This is natural in the environment for most fresh water fish. In the rainy season the rain may dilute the lake or river water, or may wash across the land and raise the level of minerals. Changes may happen rather quickly, or more slowly. Evaporation in the dry season concentrates the minerals in the lakes. In large lakes there is not so much change, and the fish are not so tolerant of changes. There is even less change in the oceans, so salt water fish are quite intolerant of such changes. If you are moving fish from water that is hard, into water that is softer, go REALLY SLOWLY. It takes time (weeks or a month) for the fishes' metabolism to get going and be able to remove the additional water that is trying to enter the cells. Fish have an easier time moving into slightly harder water, but I would still go slow, especially if the water is a lot harder than what they are accustomed to.

As far as TDS and plants, I think it is more a matter of which specific elements we are talking about. If each is present in at least a minimal amount to keep the plant growing, and not so high a level that that element is toxic, then I do not think that any range of TDS that we might find in a fresh water aquarium will be an issue for most of the plants we keep. Some plants do prefer harder water, and this water generally has a higher TDS, but I think this is more a matter of the elements present. These plants seem to need a high level of calcium for example, and certain other elements, but if their needs can be met in water that has a lower TDS this does not bother them. Lowering the TDS by removing minerals that they need very little of would not be a problem, but if you lowered the TDS by removing the minerals they need, they would not do well. If you created a high TDS water that was lacking the minerals they need the plants would not live.


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## Tominizer (May 13, 2009)

Wow........... thanks for all that information Diana. There definitely some merit in not trying to fight an uphill battle with my water type. I'm going to have to take the time to look into what's actually coming out of my tap from the City. I should have done that first ........... but live and learn.

I think at this time I'm going to have to try and still make some adjustments to the water to accomodate the current fish/plant types. It was an excellent suggestion to take it slow and not to shock and awe the system !! That completely makes sense. So I have some work ahead of me and I guess an on-going maintenance concern that I will have to be careful with when doing water changes. Only up side I can see with these NPT is minimal water changes, thus it won't be an every week sort of expense once I get it nailed.

If/when we get some decent snow fall, I'm going to bring in a bucket and test it as well........... to see what's available from mother nature instead of the City's pipes.

On the lighting, I'm running 6 four foot T12's. I can't remember if they are 32 or 50 watts. So I'm now somewhere between 180 and 300 watts on 100 gallons now that I think about it as I recently added another bank of 2 bulbs. So I'll see how that changes things and I'll bump up the hours on the timer to 12 as suggested.


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## prBrianpr (Nov 18, 2007)

if you want acidic water is so easy in El NAtural, because you dont make w/c. In my house I have pH 8, so I just fill the tank, driftwood are good to down pH, but is my soil, i use pH 4 clay and a cap of black water product and pH just down to 6 with time, I dont make w/c only refill so the ph mantains acidic easy.

Pic:

Just one of my naturals with Tetra neons


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