# Substrate smells in the next day



## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

I continue have trouble growing plants using potting soil (Walstad method) in my new tank. so I set up a small jar with the soil I plan to use in my 29 gallon aquarium, but plants are not working as expected, I see little growth. So I continue to do the experiment to see how the soil behaves with couple more jars (some of the plants used: sagittaria, vallisneria, water wisteria, limnophila sessiliflora, etc.,), and noticed the substrate started to smell next day itself within few days smell increases, but no smell in the water. I did the experiment with very thin layer of gravel (to make sure cap is not causing any issues), and 1/2 inch soil. I did not see any major growth in those jars.

I did not take photos to post. Soil is 100 % organic soil, and no chemical fertilizer added. I checked with manufacturer before buying. Is there anything wrong with the soil? Does substrate smell within a day? I believe smelly substrate causing poor plant growth. 

Attached photo of my soil ingredients. 

Should I try different soil?

Thanks in advance!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

This soil is loaded with extra nutrients even though it is "organic" and has no synthetic fertilizers. Try using a very thin layer, or mineralizing it, or soak-and-drain, or mixing it with an inorganic high cation exchange capacity (CEC) substrate like Safe-T-Sorb.

Are you in the USA? If not it may be hard to find the high CEC ingredients we often recommend.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah, dung, manure is too much organic nutrient. It’ll cause anaerobic condition quickly. It might be easier to get top soil from your backyard.


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## Hank Junior (Oct 1, 2020)

I am no biologist but every substrate I have dug up smells terrible. I think its normal - its bacteria. A substrate without smell is not natural. A substrate should be a chemical factory. The worst substrate I have ever smelt (truly offensive, rotten egg smell) was one I dug up in the wild, by the side of a road. It was so bad I didn't want to use it. Its become my best substrate and the water means there is no smell (water acts as a smell barrier). I haven't smelt it since I put it into my tank but I doubt it would smell any better.

But I suspect that animal waste (manure) maybe too high in organics for a small tank. Never tried it.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

Michael said:


> This soil is loaded with extra nutrients even though it is "organic" and has no synthetic fertilizers. Try using a very thin layer, or mineralizing it, or soak-and-drain, or mixing it with an inorganic high cation exchange capacity (CEC) substrate like Safe-T-Sorb.
> 
> Are you in the USA? If not it may be hard to find the high CEC ingredients we often recommend.


Thanks! In one of the experiment jars, I was actually using mineralized soil with couple of wet and dry following your advice from other thread. There was no smell coming from the wet soil, and felt like airy sand, so I decided to use. Do you think it needs more preparation wet/dry cycles? How do I know the soil mineralized? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

That soil sounds good. "Mineralize" is a confusing term. What you are trying to do is rinse out excess nutrients and get decomposition started. If the wet soil smelled good, then it should be ready.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

Michael said:


> That soil sounds good. "Mineralize" is a confusing term. What you are trying to do is rinse out excess nutrients and get decomposition started. If the wet soil smelled good, then it should be ready.


Thanks! Here where I live it's very common to have cow manure added to soil. 

Yes, I was using the prepared soil, but it was also smelly. Probably soil cant be used in aquarium? Thanks!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

pjcvijay said:


> Thanks! Here where I live it's very common to have cow manure added to soil.
> 
> Yes, I was using the prepared soil, but it was also smelly. Probably soil cant be used in aquarium? Thanks!


Manure amendments are used to give high yields for fruits and vegetables. Definitely not needed for aquatic plants.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

mistergreen said:


> Manure amendments are used to give high yields for fruits and vegetables. Definitely not needed for aquatic plants.


The cow manure in the soil is well decomposed, it's not recognisable. Do you think still causing problems? Thanks!


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## Hank Junior (Oct 1, 2020)

@pjcvijay, you have me wondering now. Cow manure is essentially just dead grasses. I will try some as I have access to cows. Sheep manure doesn't seem to work at all with plants, non-aquatic (sheep seem to have some strange guts). I have just started making my own composting and soils for aquarium plants. My sceptic tank outflow/orchard soil is looking promising but its only been 1 month, too early to say.

I will try some cow manure. I've been thinking of adding some vegetable refuse from the kitchen table to add to the compost mix but composting seems to take a long time, probably at least a year before you can use it. I think the important thing is not so much what your fertiliser is, but how much you use. Too much and you may overload the tank. A little is worth a go.


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm all in favor of experimentation. Every brand of potting mix or soil is different; every backyard topsoil is different. That's what makes for discussions on substrate. For simplicity's sake, many APC threads tend to revolve around MGOC (Miracle-Gro Organic - I think the "C" stands for Choice) because it's widely available in the United States and the formula is about as consistent as a mass produced product can be. It's heavy on peat moss and light on animal manure and still manages to be "hot" when used right out o the box. But, there are lots of places around the world where MGOC is not available. So, by all means, try a little cow manure with your favorite "dirt" and let us know the results.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

pjcvijay said:


> The cow manure in the soil is well decomposed, it's not recognisable. Do you think still causing problems? Thanks!


In small amounts, maybe it will be fine but if your soil turns anaerobic (rotten egg smell) easily, it's a problem.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It's hard to know what stage of decomposition a purchased soil is in. Cow or any kind of manure might be fine if it is well-decomposed. Earthy smell is always good.

Oxygenation can change everything. A soil sitting in a jar or a tank with no water movement can easily go severely anaerobic. In my tank setups with soil underlayers, I *always* had water circulation via a pump filter or gentle air bubbling. 

Look for potting soils sold for growing houseplants, cactus or other slow growers. Avoid packaged soils designed for growing vegetables, lawns, roses, etc. A low NPK rating is another clue. Look for the soil with the *lowest* N content. The goal is to find the least fertile soil and then use it sparingly.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> It's hard to know what stage of decomposition a purchased soil is in. Cow or any kind of manure might be fine if it is well-decomposed. Earthy smell is always good.
> 
> Oxygenation can change everything. A soil sitting in a jar or a tank with no water movement can easily go severely anaerobic. In my tank setups with soil underlayers, I *always* had water circulation via a pump filter or gentle air bubbling.
> 
> Look for potting soils sold for growing houseplants, cactus or other slow growers. Avoid packaged soils designed for growing vegetables, lawns, roses, etc. A low NPK rating is another clue. Look for the soil with the *lowest* N content. The goal is to find the least fertile soil and then use it sparingly.


Thanks, Diana!

I'm sure the soil is well decomposed, and smells earthy. Either cow manure or something else in the soil creates anaerobic condition very quickly. I did have air bubbling for water circulation.

In India its hard to find the soil with the recommended quality, and manufactures not revealing thier NPK ratio for some reason.

It's too early to tell but I have setup 1 gallon jar with my well decomposed compost (dried leaves, kitchen scraps, etc.,), growth is visible from day one. It's into the third day only, already visible growth in multiple plants. More importantly substrate did not smell so far.

If it works that would be wonderful. I was preparing the compost with the intention to use in the aquarium, so did not add too much green materials (Nitrogen). Also, I was successfully growing plants including seeds with the same compost. 

I keep you posted my progress on the jar aquarium.

Thanks again!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Kitchen compost is always good! After all, you know what's in it.  
I like your ingenuity.
Yes, keep us posted.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Banana peels make the best compost, with lots of potassium. The best compost is a mix of composted wood, kitchen scraps, peat, and leaves. The nutrient levels are also high like in manure. You need to cut the nutrient levels with sand and maybe a little clay.


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## ronnie (Feb 26, 2021)

I wanted to jump off Diana’s back here and agree with using the soil sparingly.

I too used a soil that was nutrient rich. In my test tank set up: I made the soil level too high, and was met with annoyances and disasters. But when I used the same soil and laid a shallow layer, it was pretty successful.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Kitchen compost is always good! After all, you know what's in it.
> I like your ingenuity.
> Yes, keep us posted.


After trying with my compost, I see good plant growth, but noticed substrate smells. Is that very common? Should I worry about it? 

Day 1:












After two weeks:










Finally one brand revealed their composition. 










Is that fine for aquarium?

Thanks again!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Hard to say, because I don't know what those numbers mean and I see lots of variability. For example, the 0.52-1.61 nitrogen? Is that %. If so, it is very high. The soil (MGOC Potting Mix) that I used for my successful shrimp bowls contained 0.10 % nitrogen. [It had an NPK "rating" of 0.10, 0.05, and 0.05 (i.e., contained 0.10% N, 0.05% P, and 0.05% K).] Without other input on composition on the brand you have displayed, I would not recommend it. You would have to mineralize the heck out of it before putting in a tank. (If you go this route, see Michael's mineralization procedure.)

Your kitchen compost appears to be working *very* well. This jives with my results. Immediate good growth, clear water, and a hint of tannins (yellow tinged water). 

I would not fault a brand because it does not advertise its composition. Look for bagged stuff in garden centers designed to grow indoor houseplants. Surely, storekeepers know which of their brands are working best for their houseplant customers. Folks, this is not rocket science or require technical wizardry. People have been growing houseplants for centuries.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Hard to say, because I don't know what those numbers mean and I see lots of variability. For example, the 0.52-1.61 nitrogen? Is that %. If so, it is very high. The soil (MGOC Potting Mix) that I used for my successful shrimp bowls contained 0.10 % nitrogen. [It had an NPK "rating" of 0.10, 0.05, and 0.05 (i.e., contained 0.10% N, 0.05% P, and 0.05% K).] Without other input on composition on the brand you have displayed, I would not recommend it. You would have to mineralize the heck out of it before putting in a tank. (If you go this route, see Michael's mineralization procedure.)
> 
> Your kitchen compost appears to be working *very* well. This jives with my results. Immediate good growth, clear water, and a hint of tannins (yellow tinged water).
> 
> I would not fault a brand because it does not advertise its composition. Look for bagged stuff in garden centers designed to grow indoor houseplants. Surely, storekeepers know which of their brands are working best for their houseplant customers. Folks, this is not rocket science or require technical wizardry. People have been growing houseplants for centuries.


Thank you for your inputs! I will use my compost. I mentioned about the smell in the compost after couple weeks of submerged state. Any thought? Sorry for asking too many questions. I really want to go in the El Natural path. I'm trying to do anything to go in that direction, Thanks!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

What does it smell like?


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

mistergreen said:


> What does it smell like?


All I can say it's a bad smell. Don't know whether it's H2S. Is it normal for new substrate to smell? Thanks!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Does it smell like rotten eggs? Rotting flesh? garbage?


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

mistergreen said:


> Does it smell like rotten eggs? Rotting flesh? garbage?


I don't think it smells like rotten eggs, but smells like something decaying. When I poke the substrate lots of bubbles came.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

pjcvijay said:


> I don't think it smells like rotten eggs, but smells like something decaying. When I poke the substrate lots of bubbles came.


I guess it's normal for compost. Just wait it out I suppose. Maybe put it outside so you don't have to smell it


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Oxygen is the key to keep it from smelling. This can come from plant photosynthesis, water movement, poking substrate, etc. Your choice...


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Oxygen is the key to keep it from smelling. This can come from plant photosynthesis, water movement, poking substrate, etc. Your choice...


No matter whatever I do (mineralizing, poking substrate, water movement, etc.,), my substrate turns anaerobic and fluffy. My water is very hard. Is that something causing the H2S toxicity? If so, using R.O water can solve the problem?

PS: My plants are growing, but they are not looking at their best.

Thanks!


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## johnwesley0 (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm no expert, but your compost may be a little too hot. That's why this was an experiment. My suggestion would be to cut it with more peat moss. Peat moss has little to no nutrients and might slow down the decomposition process enough for the available oxygen to do its job?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I looked back at photos of your jars. Looked wonderful. Huge plant biomass. Clear water. What has changed? 

If the plants are doing well, I would not worry about substrate bubbling. The goal is to have good plant growth not to have a sleepy substrate.

Do you have animals in the jar? 

Maybe a new photo to compare plant biomass with previous photo? Has growth been good enough that you have been pruning plants since last photo?

I would wait on changing anything. In general, hardwater is good.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> I looked back at photos of your jars. Looked wonderful. Huge plant biomass. Clear water. What has changed?
> 
> If the plants are doing well, I would not worry about substrate bubbling. The goal is to have good plant growth not to have a sleepy substrate.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply! I set up the jar just for experiment purpose, so I tear down after few weeks (Sorry! Forgot to take a picture of it).

Yes, plant growth was good, but when tear down noticed blacked root and smelly substrate. This is been a problem for all of my NPT setups so far tried. Usually plants grow (not all of them) within a day or two, but they won't look healthy and lush instead look like they are suffering from something. It's anaerobic all of the time. I tried various methods (mineralized the soil, thin soil layer, thin soil cap, poking, water movements, etc.,), but none of them seems to be working for me.

I'm not a big fan of investing in test kits. So no idea about all the water parameters. All I know is my bore water has TDS around 1000ppm. My R.O gives 100-150ppm. Knowing water parameters help solve the problem? If so, I can try that.

Thanks again!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Give your RO water a try. Your tap water might be high in heavy metals that could cause anaerobic conditions so the RO will take the metals out.

Oh, don't forget to add extra calcium & magnesium for your plants in the RO water.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I would try diluting your tapwater 1:1 with RO water.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> I would try diluting your tapwater 1:1 with RO water.


I am excited to give you all an update on my NPTs with different water source!

I setup a bowl and a nano tank, 7 gallon, both were used R.O water. Bowl is two weeks old, and nano tank is just more a week old. Both of my NPT setups are doing fantastic!

As suggested, I did not dilute R.O water with my tap water as I was confident that I have enough hard water nutrients. My plan was to mix tap water only if plants were showing any deficiencies, but after looking at the Vallisneria and Sagittaria's growth (both are hard water plants), I knew that my R.O water has enough nutrients. Sagittaria and Vallisneria are growing like crazy, and I never seen this before. Soon my small bowl is going to be filled. 

















I see steady and healthy plant growth from day one, new growth everyday! Lights are on for 14 hours with 2-3 hours siesta.

Substrate in both of the setups are not showing any kind of toxicity. In fact, Vallisneria root reached bottom of the bowl.

In the nano tank, I mixed crushed *wood charcoal to the compost*, and dusted on the bottom glass, not much very little (~5%) to avoid any contamination. I learnt that wood charcoal (just pure wood Charcoal with no addictive) is used in soil to prevent contamination and store excess nutrients. Compare to my bowl no tannins released even after a week.

Also, added red plants to my nano tank on Day 8.

The only issue noticed in nano tank was iron deficiency in Limnophila Sessiliflora, pale/ yellow leaves. I believe the plant was taking iron from the water column, which was not available but used by other plants including floating. Or the light I used in nano tank little brighter light than the one used in the Bowl which caused iron to be used very quickly? On the 6th day, I added very little amount of trace element (2ml) that contains iron, which turned Limnophila Sessiliflora back to green again. I did not notice the iron deficiency in my Bowl.

I believe the problem would have gone by itself after a while. I am feeding my fish well, and don't want to dose anything chemically.

*Is adding trace element acceptable when seeing deficiencies in plants or I should waited for another week or so? Anything else to do to increase iron for water column plants.*

Finally it's clear that all of the anaerobic and H2S toxicity were the result of using my tap water. I have been trying with the NPT for the past one year with various soil substrates, without a luck. Just realized that the water, not the soil caused all the problems.

Hope others will benefit from my experience. I will update my tank progress. Thanks, everyone!

Nano Tank Day 1 _(No soil is exposed, as I covered the soil layer with gravel)_:









Nano Tank Day 8:


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Lovely! Aside from the pleasure of witnessing a hard-won success, the results are very interesting. 

R.O. water has no nutrients, so the soil and fishfood alone is releasing enough into the water for your plants. A freshly submerged soil will release plentiful Ca and Mg (my book, p. 131, Fig VIII-6).

It is possible that your tapwater contains high levels of sulfates. The sulfates would percolate into the soil where bacteria would convert them to toxic H2S. (Hard waters from a coastal city with a seawater input would be expected to contain high sulfates.) 

In any case, your results are wonderful and worth celebrating. Thanks for posting!


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

dwalstad said:


> Lovely! Aside from the pleasure of witnessing a hard-won success, the results are very interesting.
> 
> R.O. water has no nutrients, so the soil and fishfood alone is releasing enough into the water for your plants. A freshly submerged soil will release plentiful Ca and Mg (my book, p. 131, Fig VIII-6).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your inputs, Diana!

Yes, I'm from coastal city, and living close to sea. Now I see why had so much trouble going on with plants.

I keep you posted about my tank progress. Also, have bone meal with me, may be I can mix with little compost, and insert into the substrate using gelatin capsules.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks for your persistence and informative posts! 1,000 ppm TDS is really high.

"In the nano tank, I mixed crushed *wood charcoal to the compost*, and dusted on the bottom glass, not much very little (~5%) to avoid any contamination. "

This caught my attention because I have been studying the use of biochar (charcoal) as an amendment in terrestrial soils. Biochar is a huge subject of research now as a way of carbon sequestration. It has many properties that sound useful in aquarium substrate. It is very stable, with a life span measured in centuries. It is extremely porous providing habitat for microorganisms. It has high CEC, so it can hold nutrients. And in terrestrial soils it is a long term source of carbon.

Just how all this would work in aquarium substrate is still a question, but your use of charcoal is encouraging. Might be time for some experimental bowls.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

I don’t know how effective charcoal is at capturing carbon in the soil. You can build a CO2 capturing device where air has to flow through the charcoal And when you need to release the CO2, you apply heat to the charcoal.

its high CEC should be great to work with.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

Michael said:


> Thanks for your persistence and informative posts! 1,000 ppm TDS is really high.
> 
> "In the nano tank, I mixed crushed *wood charcoal to the compost*, and dusted on the bottom glass, not much very little (~5%) to avoid any contamination. "
> 
> ...


In my couple of previous experiment setups, I did have the Wood Charcoal, plants were not doing well, but when I tear down the small setup there was no smell from the substrate as it did all the times. Then I realized that substrate was not responsible for H2S toxicity, it could be something else, the water. In the past, I have seen one of the Youtuber was using Charcoal in the substrate, he was yelling about the use of Wood Charcoal (not activated carbon or anything):

"Aerobic Substrate Conditions (Full of Oxygen) will greatly assist in plant development and growth of plant roots, that's where Wood charcoal plays a very important role."

I will definitely use Wood Charcoals in all of my future setups. It has many good properties for aquarium use, high CEC, home for bacteria, it's easily available, natural, etc.,

*More importantly I have seen someone using it and showing great results. It was not my idea to use in the aquarium. *

Thanks!


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

pjcvijay said:


> my R.O water has enough nutrients


This caught my eye as well. As @dwalstad said, the RO water won't have any Ca/Mg in it. You may need to supplement down the line if growth starts stalling. Just something to keep in mind. Great to hear about your progress though!



pjcvijay said:


> Is adding trace element acceptable when seeing deficiencies in plants or I should waited for another week or so? Anything else to do to increase iron for water column plants.


I also add Seachem iron to my tank a couple times a week to keep up the floater growth. If I stop they almost immediately start growing stunted and yellow. One of these days I'd like to find a way to add a more permanent source of iron to the water column, but as of yet this is the best I can do.


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## pjcvijay (Nov 13, 2019)

Hi everyone,

It's been seven weeks since I setup the tank. Thought of giving an update. I did couple of trimmings already, and ready for next the trimming soon. Both plants and fishes are going fantastic! Here is the photo of my underwater Jungle aquarium:

















Thanks!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Terrific! Your tank should be an inspiration to everyone.
Fish look good, too!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Wowee! Great plant growth.


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