# Big ol project for the devil



## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Well this here white devil needs a little well alot of guidance. My ever so loving wife just got me a complete 75g tank, angled front flat back tank from her grandfather, paid 200 for it brand new today jsut gotta get it home.


As some know I have a 26/28g bowfront tank that is planted but is a sandbed tank.

What am I going to need to keep the substrate the texture of the sand( no gravel at all not even an option no rock substrate at all) can I use flourite and sand or what?


As far as CO2 goes, what is a DIY way to make it almost pro? I am aiming at keeping the plants I got now,( low/low). I have never had a planted tank before this bowfront I got. Please help me I need to know WPG I am at 2wpg now in full spectrum.


Please and thank you.
Its freshwater and tropical, have angels in the tank as well as live breeders to keep my angels full.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Congratualtions. You can use those 4 bulbs in that one. :badgrin: 

OMG, you sound so excited. Take your time and think alot. Measure twice, cut once. 

Ummmm.........I wouldn't pick on you if you didn't sound like such a decent dude but can I take this moment to say something to you?

Have you seen TexGal's tank? She spent a few years learning to walk really really well and slowly took her time to working up to the professional ballerina of plants she is today. She creats the garden of eden yet still sees a hole in it. Versus the guy who hits the ground running from the first second, runs straight for the faulty bungy cord and over he goes. You have a big beautiful tank now, take your time. You don't have to max it out on that stuff, that doesn't make you a pro. These people have natural tanks with little bits of CO2 and upped their lighting some but first they really learned what they were doing. Rome wasn't built in a day. Do you want to crash and burn or do you want nice peaceful satisfation and like one person so aptly put about TexGal's tank, just sit and look at it totally psyched?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Is the sand for looks or function? You could always layer; throw down some fluorite, eco-complete, aquasoil etc. then use sand up top. Might help to borrow from terrarium keepers and use some sphagnum between layers. If it's aesthetics only, you can keep it planted substrate in the back for more re-planting flexibility, then fill the front with sand, using driftwood and rock (covering some with moss helps the looks) to create a boarder.Some of these substrates have pretty fine consistency compared to the usual epoxy coated gravel; 1-6mm vs 8mm+. 

2wpg is the edge of flipping to compressed, but DIY can work. Do a bigger batch of it than you need, and use flourish excel every day at the highest safe dose you can manage. You'll want to read on the subject. Long-term, compressed is cheaper; consider it for a future purchase.

Not sure what your experience level is with ferts, but find your self a good method that'll maintain non-limiting nutrients. PMDD, EI etc.

You could also scale the light back a hair and go low-tech. If you did this while keeping the CO2, you'd have a low upkeep, probably fairly low algae tank. The challenge here would be assuring enough light gets to the lower plants.

Either way, figure out your ferts and keep the CO2 higher than your plants need it.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Cali, no blood no foul in my book, This isnt my first rodeo but its my first one in a WHILLLLEEE. I've had ALOT of tanks since I was a kid and well this is my biggest personal project on a tank, 90g SA/texas cich tank and then turned it to a predator marine tank and stopped after that to pursue exotic geckos and frogs. This is my FIRST big tank on me own and well frankly I am worried, my pops has bred fish since he was 8 years old and told me that I spend more time on my tank then he ever did on ANY of his( had over 100 tanks in a bedroom while a teenager), I am jsut afraid of really botching it and giving up on the while thing and leaving the fish to be bored with their fake decor. I have talked with TexGal a few times before and am actually doing my research based on alot of her comments and insights.

Philo, I dont FERT, never have, first planted tank right now. Sand is functional, got cories and kuhlis on the bottom.

What do you mean by scale back the lighting? 1wpg or 1.5wpg?

I dont have CO testing equipment, I just threw a system together and stuck the co2 exit into my filter intake pipe.

I have caribseas marine sand now and well my crypt w.'s are really rooting out in it, maybe because its fine sand they arent holding but they are growing. Ive had almost an inch of new growth in 3 weeks now.

I have a chunk of Mopani that is covered well its growing from the ball I put on there and laced down that will be coming to the next tank and a piece of a tree trunk that is also moss covered but that can go I can take the moss off, its not real its a plastic one( not resin)

Compressed CO2 I have on my paintball guns, I do want a larger tank though not the small one, something around the size of a 2 liter or 64oz.

This is my tank layout now.


sorry newest best I got, Wc was done the day after pics to re leave the tannins.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ya, 2wpg without ferts is pushing it. If you don't have the nutrients and CO2 to keep the plants growing, algae will take advantage of the situation. High light/low tech hasn't been a winning combination in the past. As far as I can see, it's either $40 of ferts, or decrease the lighting. Either way, even a little trace elements couldn't hurt with low tech, unless you're pulling some decent weekly water changes.

A drop checker can be done pretty cheaply to help with your CO2. A little silicone or super glue and a 3-piece air lock for brewing can do the job. A bubble counter never hurts; it may not indicate amount in the tank, but it does tell you how much more you're pumping in at adjustment time.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

my bubble counter is rapid right now, I pulled te CO2 line out of the water a little bit jsut enough to disappate some. the tank has cleared since doing that this morning.

I jsut used a check valve, medicine syringe and goat tuff glue.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

OK, got some flourite, gonna order 30 more pounds, got the premium play sand, got the dechlor. are there any test strips that are reliable? I am trying to stay on a budget of 150 for all set up.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I've never used strips outside of testing a swimming pool before getting in to the hobby. Titration and electronic has been my preferred method. Anyone else know about the strips?

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

I have jungle 6-n-1 now, but test the ph with drops. id like to get a kit but cant find em cheap enough right now.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ya, test kits can run you more than the fish at times. Hatch and LaMotte may be out of most of our price ranges, but API does a decent enough job. I've found their master test kit for $20-$30 online. It could do with a nitrate test and low range pH, but otherwise it's pretty good.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

The master has a nitrate test now as well as a PH and high range PH( mines at like 8.2-8.4 normally but with mopani addition it went to 7.8). I am getting ready to order it now.


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Hi,

I've used the API "Master" test kit. I'm glad I got it - it was an OK price point for the tests it contained. Also, I've found the KH & GH tests useful as well, although the GH is VERY hard to get a reading - the "change" is really difficult to see (slightest hint of orange to slightest hint of green), so I find myself re-doing that one pretty frequently.

When you say the premium play sand... does it say "tropical"? If it does, and the sand grains are rounded like tiny peas (i.e. not boxy or squarish) it may be Ooidic sand - almost pure calcium carbonate. Its a lovely soft white color, but will make your water REALLY hard! From what I've read, its a great sand for marine setups, since it will reach an equilibrium like it had from where it was collected. But in a freshwater setup, its going to add a lot of carbonate to your water column.

If you're looking for a white sand that is inert, look at some different "pool filter sand" brands. Its generally a nice grain size, and some of it is VERY white. I used AquaQuartz #20 grade once. It looked like a light beige in the bag, and I thought it would get darker when wet, but it was very (shockingly) white. It didn't work for what I was trying to achieve in my NPT, so its now the "coarse sand" component in my potting mix for epiphytic land plants.

Oh, and I've had decent success with increasing the light over an NPT - the trick is to do it WELL AFTER the soil layer has settled down, and you're no longer getting any strong algae outbreaks. This can be a year to a year and a half into a setup. I had a 15 gal that got settled in, and was a great NPT using two spiral CF bulbs in an "economy" fixture for incandescent bulbs - probably 1.5 wpg or a bit more. After more than a year, I put a 65 w Coralife fixture over it, and kept Cabomba furcata going for several months, until I let the surface floaters overtake the surface and block out too much light. I had a ton of Endlers' livebearers in that tank (lots of nutrients through the fish), and did dose with a bit of Sera's potassium carbonate liquid, because the java ferns were getting pinholes. And while it might have been a bit of dumb luck that I got just the right balance and was able to push it with higher light, I grew some things in that tank that us NPT's aren't "supposed" to be able to grow!

In terms of the sand "look", you could always put an inch around the front and side outer edges of the tank, then put the soil inside this sand moat. If its damp, it may stand up, but you could also use some cardboard as a temporary wall to keep the sand/soil line, then pull it out after you've filled in the soil part, and before you use the sand as the top layer over the soil. There are excellent pictures of this technique on Aaron's article about mineralized soil here:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

I adore the comment about "measure twice, cut once". Excellent advice! Planning is key to this - I know when I've planned, and done the "simple" methods, my tanks work well. Those times I've gotten a bee in my bonnet about doing something, and kind of rush into it, things work out FAR Less Well, LOL!

So.... do your research, don't try to do too many things at once in this new tank (you don't add ALL the spices in your spice rack to a dish you're cooking - that would taste dreadful! You have to choose which flavors you want to include and which are to be the highlights), and read, read, read!

Your wife sounds like a real gem, helping to acquire this new tank for you! My fiance likes and encourages my tanks (even helps out a bit!) and those are qualities that definitely put him into the "keeper" category!

Have fun!
-Jane


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

I have white sand now, the caribsea marine sand, its beautiful but its white, however black isnt wasnt an option due to cories and kuhlis.


Um it does not say tropical on it, the one that said tropical has a HUGE warning on the bag saying not to use with aquariums.

My wife is a PITA, about as stubborn and about as german as I am LOL.
I love her to death.

I onlY HAVE 2 PLATIES and 8 guppies that I can even think about using for starter fish and im not even sure the gups can handle it. I do plan on having sand border and top layer but I am going to do it the way you described, sounds like exactly what I am looking for.

I am starting to wash sand in a few so I might as well step by step this in pics for this wonderful, informative, unbiased forum that is here.

APC rocks!!


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Jane in Upton wrote:


> So.... do your research, don't try to do too many things at once in this new tank (you don't add ALL the spices in your spice rack to a dish you're cooking - that would taste dreadful! You have to choose which flavors you want to include and which are to be the highlights), and read, read, read!


I have to disagree. I recently made Italian meatballs using a recipe from my new Joy of Cooking cookbook. Gave the old one away. Well, Jane of Upton, that recipe did call for every seasoning in my cupboard and half the contents of my refrigerator. Those were the most fantabulous meatballs in the whole world.

I added all the plants I thought my tank could hold right from the first planting and then found room for even more between them. It was my first tank.

Soon I will be placing an order at aquariumplants.com for plants for 105 gallons worth of tank. I love their wish list feature, don't you? It's like a shopping list for me. All my seasonings will be going into those 2 tanks at once too. Lucky lucky me. And even better, no CO2. Fish and plants working in perfecty harmony. YEEHAH!

I would like to know and I'm sure all the other people who feel the same how in the world you convince yourself API tests tell you anything at all. If you put enough chemicals into the water you can force a reading? Does that really make sense? All I ever get from any of their tests is yellow water. I could try to convince myself, yeah, I"m sure it's a tiniest shade greener. You sound like a nice lady but get real.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Calcimoo said:


> I have to disagree. I recently made Italian meatballs using a recipe from my new Joy of Cooking cookbook. Gave the old one away. Well, Jane of Upton, that recipe did call for every seasoning in my cupboard and half the contents of my refrigerator. Those were the most fantabulous meatballs in the whole world.


So this would be the complexity vs. minimalism argument. Cooking is my other hobby, so I'm on page with the metaphor. I argue neither complexity or minimalism, I side with elegance. Complexity shouldn't appear picky and difficult. Simplicity should be in the subtleties. Make your meatballs, but please go make some emulsions after. I make good meatballs, I make good bearnaise sauce; they are not the same. Classic Dutch rows are not iwugami; they are pleasing for different reasons. Trying to broadly argue the superiority of either requires a more refined tool than simple metaphors. This is an issue I'm willing to articulate on and discuss at length; if it's not appropriate for the boards, then some where else.



Calcimoo said:


> I would like to know and I'm sure all the other people who feel the same how in the world you convince yourself API tests tell you anything at all. If you put enough chemicals into the water you can force a reading? Does that really make sense? All I ever get from any of their tests is yellow water. I could try to convince myself, yeah, I"m sure it's a tiniest shade greener.


Why does my drop checker go from blue to yellow as I increase the CO2 in my aquarium then? Why does science accept bromothymol as an acceptable reagent for indicating pH? Why does it change color in conjunction with readings from my Hanna Instruments pH meter? I just re-calibrated my poorer quality KH test kit today. It's off by 1dKH when tested in a 4dkh solution. I re-tested in three times, and it was consistently wrong. It has expired. When I dumped it back in to my testing waste water, it returned to its original color because of the reduced KH. When I put it in DI water, it hits the end color right away. Even my broken titration kit is consistent.

More curios is how you can tell everyone their own abilities to differentiate one shade of color from another. Are you an ophthalmologist or optometrist? Maybe even a good artist? Have you at least done some reading onthe subject of human perception of color? Are you aware of how many shades the human eye can differentiate between?

If you're going to summarily blow some one off, a little more precision would be appreciated. Hard empirical data would always be welcome. Just because they didn't offer it, doesn't mean you don't have to. Tu quo que is a logical fallacy.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Ya, 2wpg without ferts is pushing it. If you don't have the nutrients and CO2 to keep the plants growing, algae will take advantage of the situation. High light/low tech hasn't been a winning combination in the past. As far as I can see, it's either $40 of ferts, or decrease the lighting. Either way, even a little trace elements couldn't hurt with low tech, unless you're pulling some decent weekly water changes.
> 
> A drop checker can be done pretty cheaply to help with your CO2. A little silicone or super glue and a 3-piece air lock for brewing can do the job. A bubble counter never hurts; it may not indicate amount in the tank, but it does tell you how much more you're pumping in at adjustment time.
> 
> -Philosophos


Ok, what wattage should I be aiming for? 1wpg? I have the new tank set up and running w/o fish for a few days, its got a coralife 48" trichromatic full spectrum 6500K bulb in it with a real nice housing, entire underside is polished aluminum or tin metal. There is more on the 55( not 75g) then on the 26 with power compacts and a regular 15w bulb


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> Ok, what wattage should I be aiming for? 1wpg? I have the new tank set up and running w/o fish for a few days, its got a coralife 48" trichromatic full spectrum 6500K bulb in it with a real nice housing, entire underside is polished aluminum or tin metal. There is more on the 55( not 75g) then on the 26 with power compacts and a regular 15w bulb


1wpg can work for tougher plants, lower densities, incredible light distribution etc. 1.5 might see you a little more stable if it's not too much of a pain. It's pretty much about establishing around 50mmol PAR, which is hard to nail down at a single glance without a quantum PAR meter. My experience with very low light tanks has generally been one of trial and error; a pile of tough plants is always a good start, then replacing them slowly with experimental ones will keep nutrient demands a bit more stable. If you've got good co2, and sufficient nutrients, the rest should all be a matter of not overcrowding so that every plant gets the light that it requires.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Hey Calci, relax a bit, farve aint coming back, calm down cheesy.


Itsvery natural to reproduce the required natural light and natural ferts in the water and substrate.


Philo, I got about 30 pounds of flourite in the tank under about 2" of play sand, the flourite is about 2" thick in the tank some spots 3" for a rolling effect

Plant list

3-4 nice size clumps of crypt w
3-4 nice size java ferns with rhizome
2 golf ball size clumps of java moss
1 cutting of anubias (rhizome with 2-3 leaves)


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

LOL,

what sludge? the flourite? 

You can reproduce nature.
look at the wild animal parks, look at big aquariums, look at biotopes.

Where in wisco are you? west central? PDC area or further north and east?

I hate the football, stupidest game ever. I prefer rugby.

the color doesnt bother me, I plan on it turning some shade of reddish brown when the mopani goes in but nothing that wont clear up with filtering and WC's.

I got 2 9k gallon tanks at work, we reproduce nature right down to the food.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

I don't know what PDC is. We're a ways east of EC, in corner of everywhere but nowhere. It's gotten civilized the last few years tho. When we moved here it was like Siberian Deliverance in the 1940's. So many people moved here like us from all over because of land prices, even the ones who were already here have come out of hiding. It's good now. But it wasn't. It really wasn't. There's even fresh produce in the stores now and I actually think square headed line breeders are outnumbered. Oh I'm bad. The nice ones are the nicest in the world problem is there really aren't that many of them. Ok, now that i got that out of my system. hahahahaha

My step-father worked 34 years at a zoological game farm, Catskill Game Farm, we even had a pet monkey, lion cubs in the cellar, llama born in out livingroom during a blizzard and couldn't leave her outside on the truck, he stopped home from picking her up down in Kennedy Airport and got snowed in. They couldn't reproduce nature. My grandparents were curators of their own local and natural history museum, my grandfather a self taught naturalist, historian and bird watcher, etc. 

The reason I made that remark about eggheads was because that was almost a direct quote from an egghead describing himself. I thought he might be here and recognize his own words. His job is doing nature, beyond what you understand, not just what you see. You can only do it temporarily and the side affects show up along the way. It's not what you see. I can't tell it to you any other way. Time tells.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Calcimoo said:


> Philosophos , that was pretty funny. You started my early morning out with a good giggle.
> 
> Now tell me, why are you talking science project in the natural forum?


Natural does not mean ignorant of nature.

Science does not mean separate from nature.

The book and concept this method was created around was not ignorant of scientific theory, and in fact depends on it. Luckily, it does not require you to know much about the finer details. Most good methods are like that.

Want to see how carbon is assimilated by your plant?

You don't need to know that chart. This does not mean it doesn't apply.

Loving nature does not mean fearing science.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Calci, PDC= Prairie Du Chein.

I fish and hunt wisconsin ALOT so im not unfamiliar with territories and tiny towns( they hold the best game).

Nature is science.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Its up and going, fish are in it. pics are uploading. I put em all in today, got 2 filters going temp at 79/82.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Ok, PLEASE dont grill me over the tall plastics in the corner, its temporary till I get some live ones that will do that, got a betta who staked the corner so I gave him some of my old plants to give him cover and home sweet home ness.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Not a bad start. Plastic plants are inevitable at some point for nearly every hobbyist. I've always wanted to sneak one in to a planted tank competition. You might want to up the density of your plants; fill it in with cheap, fast growing stuff if you like.

Is this tank cycled already from seeding, or are you going the long way?

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

There is plenty of bacteria in the tank, Its very new as in set up a little over 27 hours ago, ran overnight with no top on and filters going, had carbon bags in the tanks overnight with 2 filters, 3 old heavily gooey filter cartridges, about 25 pounds of bacteria encrusted rock and decor.

I did dose it with cycle after the dechlor. My dad has had tanks for over 40 years, over 100 for a 10 year stretch during middle and high schools and the later end of elementary, he stocked the LFS with gouramis and guppies till he got into angels and discus breeding. He took my angels out and put em in the new tank when I was outside firing up my grill for beer can chicken dinner tonight( aint had it, try it, dr pepper chicken is fantastic) I came back in and they were very bright in color and very interested in every square inch of the tank, I let it be for an hour.

I then added my cories and they instantly went to the bottom and started sticking their heads in the sand and sifting, then I added the rest, its actually in great shape, I know I am going to spike a little but nothing that will kill the fish since the good bacteria is there already on what it will stick to anyways.

It has been seeded.



I am going to get some more plants just have to recoup the fish budget a bit, tapped it and then some with this deal.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

White Devil, how come so few plants? You're getting more aren't you? Why do you do it like that? 


I just ordered these a few minutes ago for two short fat tanks I can reach.

bp517	Anacharis (Egeria najas)	2
LL001	Barteri Round Leaf (Anubias barteri v. ‘Round Leaf’)	1
bp012	Heteranthera Stargrass (Heteranthera zosterfolia)	1
sw042	Sword, Radican (Echinodorus Cordofolius)	2
sw036	Sword, Broad Leaf Chain (Echinodorus quadricostatus) (sold 10 per order)	2
cr063	Spiralis (Cryptocoryne spiralis)	2
ll608	Anubias Afzelii	2
va071	Vals, Jungle (Vallisneria gigantea)(sold 10 plants per order)	2
sur021	WATER LETTUCE (rosette)(miniature)(Pistia stratiotes)(sold in quantities of 3 per order)	1
sw046	Sword, Ruffle (Echinodorus martii)	5
sur008	FROGBIT (Limnobium spongia)	2
hf538	Coffeefolia (Anubias barteri v. ‘Coffeefolia’)	1

I just built 1 stand today that wouldn't get me any blue ribbons in 4-H but it sure is sturdy. 

I'll have to figure out my camera and we'll have a science versus nature photo shoot. 

Actually I do have a little science project myself. In the 10 gallon I have marimo pieces and baby tears doing the weirdest stuff. Other plants too. I got one of those Nutrafin CO2 kits. It didn't say what size tanks it will do so of course it only goes down to 20 gal. Oh well, I am quite capable of fukn wit anything. I mixed the sugar with their 2 packets of yeast and stabalizer, didn't look like baking powder to me. I put that in a glass jar and poured 1/4 of that in the thermos they give you and then put in the water for the amount of a full dose. Somebody told me CO2 dissloves moss and ferns, have java fern/moss mess making thing in there too. I get about 3 bubbles a minute. Seems cool. Has a regular aquarium light on top and a rubber rimmed dome clip on thing, like a heat lamp, with a small grow bulb suctioned right to the front of the glass. How's that for high tech? This is where it gets weird. The pieces of marimo balls and the 2 baby tear's plants rise up to the surface by the end of the day and then I turn the light off. By morning they go back to the bottom. I fertilize them with what is in the bottom of the pail when I vacuum regular tanks. The baby moss balls eat that stuff. The messy moss ball thing is covered with bubbles but doesn't rise. So science dudes, what is going on in there? Why the up down stuff and why the bubbles? In English.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

My CO2 is a 2 liter MOUNTAIN DEWWWW bottle, some silicone air line, a medicine syringe, a check valve, some goat tuff glue and a stone( diffuser is ordered and in transit) thats it.

I got kicked out of science class for causing a disturbance with some chemicals and a bunson burner.

But figuring plants create oxygen maybe the moss is oxygen rich? or something/


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> I am going to get some more plants just have to recoup the fish budget a bit, tapped it and then some with this deal.


Ya, fish tanks will do that. The site Calcimoo mentioned is where I get my plants as well when I have to order. If you're getting a lot of plants, their low plant prices more than compensate for the price of shipping. They've got generous bunches, and occasionally throw in extra plants. Probably some of the lowest HC and glosso prices I've seen, very good selection in general. They even do high quality, properly trimmed show-grade plants.



Calcimoo said:


> Philosophos, all the way thru school they made us take these equivalency tests called IOWA tests. I always showed such a phenomenal scientific block that my teachers would even tell me how bad I did at that stuff even tho they weren't supposed to. They said I was truly amazing. They said I had such an understanding yet can't do science. Instincts. I don't need to know why. It just is.


That looks like a bare assertion argumentum ad verecundium to me.

Your marimo balls rise and fall because of respiration cycles if I'm not mistaken. Dark cycles/cellular respiration doesn't kick off so much CO2 as the O2 does during synthesis. Effectively the buoyancy changes. Same thing happens in the lake they were discovered.

If you want any sort of competition, let your tank mature 3 months first. One month of nutrient stores has to get out of the plants (I know how nice aquariumplants.com can grow their plants) and then two months to let the effects of keeping the tanks level out. New tanks lose points in ADA and ADG competitions for a reason.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Yep, I saved the site.

I got my bunch shipped for 12 bucks. I will check them out though closer to payday.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> My CO2 is a 2 liter MOUNTAIN DEWWWW bottle, some silicone air line, a medicine syringe, a check valve, some goat tuff glue and a stone( diffuser is ordered and in transit) thats it.
> 
> I got kicked out of science class for causing a disturbance with some chemicals and a bunson burner.
> 
> But figuring plants create oxygen maybe the moss is oxygen rich? or something/


I would have given you my diffuser. I even hooked it up to all but my biggest air pump and nothing would go thru it. I did that stupid yeast thing, what a crock. More power to ya. What the heck is goat tuff glue? You actually did that syringe thing too? Oh man, I used a large fat glass pickled egg jar with poster putty around the tube/hole. Then a glass pickle jar with bio media and cell pore media chunks in the bottom for a cleaner jar. It made gas, cleaned it real good, but nothing would go thru that stupid diffuser and then they told me the diffusers need more presssure than you get from the yeast thing. So then I stuck a Hydor air bubble thing on the gas line and the gas went thru so well I turned it off after 1 minute. So just a warning, that diffuser looks neat and I hope your works better than mine. That Nutrafin kit I bought, more money to blow, $35, will do up to 70 gallons and you can make your own yeast mix for it when you use up the packets.

My Physical Science teacher enjoyed having me around so much he failed me by half a point, 64.5, so he could have me a 2nd year. In fact he did that to all the girls he liked. He was totally cool but I told him, I like you too Mr. Healy but not that &*&*^%$%$^() much.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

i did have the 35 dollar co2 kit, 

Goat tuff glue is a fletching glue for archery. holds 10x stronger then crazy glue, I know I glued my lips to the check valve to the bubble counter it sucked, lost me stache to it.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

City boy? me? hardly. There is ALOT of simple folk in me.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

What's wrong with living in urban or rural areas? What I can't stand is the blatant anti-intellectualism that's so prevalent at times. It's not good for our own survival to be pridefully ignorant. It may be forgivable to be intellectually deficient, we don't have complete control over that. The desire to have a simple mind didn't get us out of loin cloths, though.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> What's wrong with living in urban or rural areas? What I can't stand is the blatant anti-intellectualism that's so prevalent at times. It's not good for our own survival to be pridefully ignorant. It may be forgivable to be intellectually deficient, we don't have complete control over that. The desire to have a simple mind didn't get us out of loin cloths, though.
> 
> -Philosophos


Im not saying im simple minded I jsut feel more comfortable in the sticks then I do in the concrete jungle, I am a high school grad, army vet, father, avid outdoorsman and very well self educated in things I am interested in.

Some folks are just really country and dont believe in the established ochrestrated public school system, I know I have no faith in them, I dropped out twice before I went back and graduated so I could go serve my duty to my country.

Loincloths were way before my time. I got elastic banded ones.


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> What's wrong with living in urban or rural areas? What I can't stand is the blatant anti-intellectualism that's so prevalent at times. It's not good for our own survival to be pridefully ignorant. It may be forgivable to be intellectually deficient, we don't have complete control over that. The desire to have a simple mind didn't get us out of loin cloths, though.
> 
> -Philosophos


I find life is much safer and easier when people think you are dumb and crazy. I was always expected to be a carbon copy of my elders. I don't know how they could expect me to stay awake thru the boring bunch of lies they teach and call history. School put me in a coma. I would read all night.

My mother would have really enjoyed you, Phil. She was a walking talking encyclopedia too.

You and my grandfather would have talked your lives away with all that science stuff. I'm not sure how much he understood of what people would come far and wide to tell him. People brought him sand from all over the world for his small jar collection, he had most of the countries that have any sand to get. What do you call rock dudes? They'd bring him fozzils, oh my gosh, and stuff from caves you put under that blue light thing, you know, when you split the rock open it looks plain but under that light is the most beautiful thing. What part of the country are you in? Spill it. Puhlease.

Oh, that link says I have to log in to something and can't see anything .


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't find disagreeing with society means living a typical rural life. There are other options.

School was never my thing either. I've had authority issues often enough; government instituted education will teach what is in the best interest of the powers that be.

Right now I'm in the northwest US, Canadian by nationality though.

Try this link out, let it sit for a minute to load and display:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2742590700104142729hLOzeC

If all else fails, the small version is here:
http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2742590700104142729hLOzeC

-Philosophos


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

If you've got two tanks that look as high quality, you should probably be entering them into competition. 4th place prize for IAPLC looks like $1,000 and some ADA equipment if I'm not mistaken.

-Philosophos


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Phil, we work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, year after year, payed our place off years ago, even got rid of the foot stomping door slamming going to college for the rest of her life blood sucking beastly thing, why the hell would I need to compete that much and take all the fun out of plants and fish? We have all the dairy equipment we need too.


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

What nutrafin thing? I dont have anything called nutrafin.


The soil is actually crushed natural clay, mined not manufactured, rich in iron, thus eliminating the need to dose the tank with liquid or tablet ferts.

Sand isnt for all reptiles, Ive had plenty of them, sand is actually over 90% natural to wild fish, same fish we keep are in the wild somewhere and yep most of em have sand for their substrate. 

Youve never been to lake michigan or in any of the rivers around here, the FOX is loaded with sand just like the kish and black rivers.

You sure are a fiesty one. Im not in it for show, this is a tank in my entertainment room in my basement.

I like it, its mine to do what I want with and frankly, it looks good to me, the fish enjoy it you aint gotta look at it.


post away I dont care.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

The competition consists of snapping a picture and e-mailing it off. It would get you one of the most prestigious awards in plant keeping.

That wasn't a background I sent a picture of though. That was an aquascaped aquarium made to look like trees underwater. The background is the blue and white fading in the distance. This tank, like most entrants, probably used ADA aquasoil with CO2, 2-3wpg lighting and either ADA brand "brighty" series or DIY ferts.

I can agree that natural style aquariums are cheap and offer a unique experience. I can't say they compete with CO2 injection, moderate lighting and fertilization for appearances when it comes to skilled planted tank keepers.

-Philosophos


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

WhiteDevil said:


> i did have the 35 dollar co2 kit,
> 
> Goat tuff glue is a fletching glue for archery. holds 10x stronger then crazy glue, I know I glued my lips to the check valve to the bubble counter it sucked, lost me stache to it.


That wasn't the Nutrafin CO2 kit?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Calcimoo said:


> Natural is cheap? Where are the pictures of your tanks? I'm gonna say this again, why are you posting in the El Natural forum? You've got an amazing amount of brass to do that.


Natural is very cheap compared to paying for 2-4wpg, co2 injection and ferts. Basic CO2 costs $200, and you can probably double your lighting expenses. Ferts aren't so bad; $50 a year for DIY on a moderate sized tank.

To be honest, I've looked at a ton of natural tanks. I'm not saying they're destined to be ugly, that it's an invalid method, or that people shouldn't keep these tanks. They sure don't take the field very well in major aquascaping competitions though, and I don't think you'll find much of an argument there. Natural tanks have a different purpose, this does not invalidate them. It is not rational to push that your method of choice is the best in every single possible way.

I notice that you only want to see people's tanks when you're frustrated with them. You basically want to ask for a free shot at anyone you disagree with. I don't take many pictures, but I'll post what I've got. Here's a little corner of my tank from 4 months ago:









This is the day I brought home a pair of Apistogramma hongsloi. The male is an inch larger now, in better color with flowing fins, and spawning with the female. The fry are doing well. That tiny stuff up front is HC, the larger is glosso, the crypt is wendtii, and theres some H. micranthemoides to the top left. Below it all is some artificial sludge you wouldn't be interested in, fertilized by some man-made chemicals. The algae on the log has been scrubbed off, it has not come back.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

Philo, that looks really good, I like the HC coverage. Looks nicer then dwarf hairgrass.

Im not here to compete with anyone, my tank is MY tank, no one elses, dont like it, big deal you dont have to look at it, you know?

You brought home a pair of what?


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Thanks for the compliment. The HC is pretty low growing, but you get a nice dutch row-ish effect when paired with glosso. 

I definitely understand not competing. I consider it only because I want to start up a small business related to planted aquaria in the future. That and when called out under very certain circumstances... this being the first and last picture until I get it tuned for a ToTM entry.

Apistogramma hongsloi are a relatively less touchy strain of apisto. They're related to Microgeophagus ramirezi and M. altispinosa; German and Bolivian Ram's. This kind was line bred in Cuba for their color, and look a fair bit different from most other apistos. I chose them for a number of reasons; local market and tap water conditions being part of it.

-Philosophos


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

How is their temperments?

Ive been looking at blue rams as well as dwarf neon rainbows, mainly for color vibrancy.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Personally I've found rams prone to being pumped full of steroids for color. Lots of early deaths for me and the stores, while more sensitive fish survive. Be sure to ask about it when you get them, and don't go for super-colorful batches. Locally bred is usually the safer way to go anyhow; I have a hunch that it's a certain major importer causing problems.

Their temperament is good, except among their own species or when in spawn. Other fish may get the occasional exploratory prodding. When in spawn, fish are chased away from the fry and eggs. While not vital, slightly warmer temp and softer water is nice.

If you like the look of rams, there are also some heartier apistos worth looking at depending on local availability. Cacatuoides is a common one for starting out. Hongsloi are somewhat more sensitive. Double red agassizii around here have been confusingly tough and adaptable.

-Philosophos


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Calcimoo said:


> I have to disagree. I recently made Italian meatballs using a recipe from my new Joy of Cooking cookbook. Gave the old one away. Well, Jane of Upton, that recipe did call for every seasoning in my cupboard and half the contents of my refrigerator. Those were the most fantabulous meatballs in the whole world.


LOL!!!! {off topic.....}

Wow, I'll stand corrected! We probably have differently stocked spice cupboards, though! Mine includes curry powder, cumin, anise seed, mustard seed, cinnamon, coriander, cardamon, lemongrass and tarragon, in addition to the classic basil, oregano, thyme and dill. A ball o' meat stuck together with ALL of that would be rather questionable, IMO. My favorite blend of all time is a grilled meat seasoning labeled "Stuart's Road Kill Seasoning". (similar to item seen here: http://www.bettertaste.com/nerokigrseru.html ). Its worth it just to be able to leave the bottle out and see friends do a momentary worried double-take *evil grin*!

-Jane

:focus:


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

Calcimoo said:


> Dear Jane,
> 
> Alright, story time again. One morning I ran down to the store, this is back home in NY. It was maybe 7:05 a.m. I lived on a major truck route. yuck Well, there were 3 of the most beautiful clean huge doe road kills you ever seen. ............So he inspired me, I sat that doe up in the seat and put the seat belt on. Freaked ole' staggers right out and back to town he wobbled.
> 
> ...


Wow, I almost fell off my chair picturing the doe in the front seat, buckled in and all! Now THAT must'a been a sight!

But hey... jokes about "road kill seasoning mix" aside, I'm all for it getting put to good use - Bravo! If you hadn't used it, it would have just gone to the Turkey Vultures, or been picked up by a cleanup crew long after it was past the point of being usable.

Almost like manna from heaven... just meatier!
-Jane


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## Jane in Upton (Aug 10, 2005)

*ahem*

we'll now return you to your regularly scheduled aquarium-related thread............


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## WhiteDevil (May 7, 2009)

I did that in last fall, cept the deer was strapped to my trunk lid( wife decimated the 4x4 so i got a new grand prix till I get a new 4x4, hard to hunt in a fwd turd) I made sure I came home down 94 to 294 to 90 and west again, the shock factor is awesome, some people are very ignorant to crop destroyers.

Speaking of deer, had some awesome backstraps for lunch two weekends back, melt in your mouth goodness.

Got any good game recipes, calci?


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## Calcimoo (May 15, 2009)

Wood range, only way to get really good venison, slow roast, slow stew, any other way just isn't the same. Make your own bread to go with it of course. Did that for 12 years. Raised wild turkey and cooked that with a full wild game meal to go with it, wild rice stuffing, etc.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Calcimoo,

I edited out the *graphic* details of your hunting and sausage making experience. That stuff would be more appropriate on a website dedicated to hunting and meat processing. This website is dedicated to Planted Aquariums.

If you would like to post your experiences on various topics other than aquariums, you can always post in the Water Bucket forum. It's there for a reason.

Thanks,

Dave


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

So WhiteDevil, how are the plants coming along? Everything growing in okay so far? Usually about a week or two in is when I start to really notice how the plants are settling.

-Philosophos


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## fish dork (Dec 5, 2007)

This thread is a fun read! I live in the sticks and choose to... I've lived in the concrete jungle and don't like it a bit.

A question: Are you using 1 bottle for the CO2? I have a 80 gal planted tank that started with DIY CO2 and I used 2, 2 litre botttles and it worked well. I had to change 1 out every 4 days once the tank filled up with plants, but it still worked well.


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