# Is there a difference?



## Erirku

So, today I went to Petland Kahala, to go and see what was new, and nothing. Except a new substrate I had heard of, but never seen. It was made by "Red Sea", I think from Germany??? What I heard from a local petstore, was that "RS" manufactures for ADA??? Correct me if I'm wrong. So I did a tester, I grabbed a bag, and pinched one of the gravel, and it crumbled really easily. It also states it brings down the Ph, and other stuff. So is there a difference? If you guys are interested in purchasing it at petland, it is $34. Just as expensive as ADA substrate, but definitely worth the money, if this is where ADA gets their stuff from. Thanks


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## TripleC

Was it Red Sea Flora Base?

If not, let us know what the name of the product was or describe the bag!

::curious::


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## AaronT

Flora Base works pretty well. However, it disintegrates after a year's use and becomes useless mush. It even says on the bag to replace it every year....granted it's in very small print, but it's there nonetheless.


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## Erirku

Yes, TripleC, that was the product I am talking or writing about. So basically, its the same as ADA then.


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## jppurchase

Erirku said:


> So, today I went to Petland Kahala, to go and see what was new, and nothing. Except a new substrate I had heard of, but never seen. It was made by "Red Sea", I think from Germany??? What I heard from a local petstore, was that "RS" manufactures for ADA??? Correct me if I'm wrong. So I did a tester, I grabbed a bag, and pinched one of the gravel, and it crumbled really easily. It also states it brings down the Ph, and other stuff. So is there a difference? If you guys are interested in purchasing it at petland, it is $34. Just as expensive as ADA substrate, but definitely worth the money, if this is where ADA gets their stuff from. Thanks


So, "someone" told you that this mysterious new substrate was manufactured by the the same company which makes ADA substrates.

Do you always believe everything you read or are told? And then turn around and chat away about this unsubstantiated claim? That's how nasty rumours get started and propagated.

For what it is worth, Red Sea Florabase has been on the market for years, so some folks must like it, or else Red Sea would have dropped it from their product list a long time ago.

James Purchase
Toronto


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## AaronT

I should add that I have both substrates in use right now. The Flora Base works well, but still not as well as the ADA Amazonia substrate. Flora Base is similar to Aquasoil Malaya. Even Amano himself admits that he has his best results with Amazonia. Also, the ADA substrate supposedly does not deteriorate over time as rapidly as Flora Base. This has yet to be determined by myself because both tanks are only a few months old.


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## Erirku

jppurchase said:


> So, "someone" told you that this mysterious new substrate was manufactured by the the same company which makes ADA substrates.
> 
> Do you always believe everything you read or are told? And then turn around and chat away about this unsubstantiated claim? That's how nasty rumours get started and propagated.
> 
> For what it is worth, Red Sea Florabase has been on the market for years, so some folks must like it, or else Red Sea would have dropped it from their product list a long time ago.
> 
> James Purchase
> Toronto


 I thought posting a thread is to confirm and get answers? I didn't know I had to write the facts! It's just what someone who had told me, and hes been in the petshop bussiness, for awhile. Geez.


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## chiahead

from what I understand florabase and aquasoil are similar but defenitely not the same product. If they were then the two would turn to mush the same way after a year. I used some florabase for a bit but was not too impressed. I think the larger benefit to the aquasoil is the fact that most people usually use it with a powersand bottom which gives it the nutrients and the ferts/bacteria thru the substrate. A feat florabase cannot do on its own right away. I did notice when I used the florabase that for a while in the beginning the glass right next to the substrate got algea really quickly, like the florabase was leaking excessive ferts. Dunno why this happened I just know it didnt happen without it there.


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## aquaessentials

It's interesting that this topic has just reared its head now. Florabase along with their whole new Flora range has just been launched in the UK and we're actually taking delivery of it tomorrow. Interpet is the mother company so to speak but it's being promoted under the Red Sea label.

Florabase has been compared to an ADA substrate but it is also manufactured in Japan (so I've been told). I will confirm this tomorrow and have a good look at the back of the packet. 

Don't quite know of how good it is at this stage but we eagerly await this exciting product.


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## scitz

I think Red Sea is also starting to do Dupla impostor products. I've seen Red Sea branded Dupla 24 equivalent, substrate heating coils and some other things. Don't know if these are exactly the same as Dupla's stuff, but they look almost identical.


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## aquaessentials

As far as I am aware, the brand Interpet actually own Dupla and Red Sea. They are apparently putting the breaks on the Dupla planted line as they were not a successful line. I am surprised at this but my wholesalers let me know about the change...


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## jppurchase

*Owner of DUPLA*



aquaessentials said:


> As far as I am aware, the brand Interpet actually own Dupla and Red Sea. They are apparently putting the breaks on the Dupla planted line as they were not a successful line. I am surprised at this but my wholesalers let me know about the change...


I find that really hard to believe. DUPLA, the company, was sold last year to Dohse Aquaristik, a German firm that sells the HOBBY line of aquarium and terrarium products (just enter Dupla into a Google search to prove this for yourself). HOBBY products aren't well known in North America but it is a very big and very successful company in Europe.

Interpet is an Australian company owned by 2 veterinarians. It caters mainly to the needs of dogs and cats.

There is a line of aquarium goods sold by a European company trading under the name of Interpet. This company is a marketing firm, they don't "make" anything that they sell.

Dupla products have a world wide reputation for quality (and unfortunately, for high prices). But the product line is solid and it would be both foolish and a darn shame if it was dropped as a separate product line.

Red Sea is an independant company which actually develops the products it sells. Red Sea products are marketed in the United Kingdom by a company called Interpet, but they have regional offices operating as "Red Sea" throughout most of the rest of the world.

For what it is worth, I know of one North American (Canadian actually) company with access to both Dupla and HOBBY products. At the request of the owner of the company, I recently reviwed the HOBBY line of products and suggested several that would be of interest to North American hobbyists and are not available from other sources on this side of the Atlantic. That doesn't mean that I know any more than the next fellow - all of the above was gleaned thru judicious use of the Google search engine.

James Purchase
Toronto


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## Piscesgirl

I'm pretty sure I read that Red Sea purchased Dupla - in fact, Duplarit fish food is now made by Red Sea (or the parent company of Red Sea).

And, I have to say I *thought* it was Tom Barr that said that Florabase was made by the same company that made the ADA soil -- I could be wrong -- and I thought it was in a thread on APC somewhere.


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## jppurchase

*Dupla, Red Sea, et al...*



Piscesgirl said:


> I'm pretty sure I read that Red Sea purchased Dupla - in fact, Duplarit fish food is now made by Red Sea (or the parent company of Red Sea).
> 
> And, I have to say I *thought* it was Tom Barr that said that Florabase was made by the same company that made the ADA soil -- I could be wrong -- and I thought it was in a thread on APC somewhere.


This thread is getting no where fast.

You are "pretty sure" that Red Sea purchased Dupla....and Red Sea now makes Duplarin (the fish food sold by Dupla). Also, you "thought" that Tom Barr said that Florabase and ADA AquaSoil are manufactured by the same company.

Who really cares WHO makes the stuff?

Tomm Barr is NOT a God, he doesn't know everything, nor does he have the "inside dirt" on the entire industry. Quite often, his off the cuff remarks get repeated as Gospel truth, without any further investigation to verify the accuracy of his claims.

You, as a moderator of APC, ought to be a bit more careful about posting unsubstantiated claims that you don't have bang-on proof of. As I noted in my response to the initial message in this thread, we don't need any more rumours and unsubstantiated stories going around in this hobby.

You might want to check with Art G. or with Jeff Senski, as to the actual manufacturer of ADA substrates. They both know far more about ADA than anyone else here, seeing as the sold/sell it.

James Purchase
Toronto


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## Phil Edwards

Ok folks, let's keep this civil. 

The mods here are as human as everyone else and are subject to the same sources of information as everyone else is. If we posted only what we knew for sure very little would get posted. 

Fact: 
Red Sea, or its parent company, has bought Dupla. I've got a close relationship with the Red Sea rep for my region and he told me that some time ago. Red Sea's "Flora" line is the same formula as the old Dupla stuff, if it was Dupla stuff. The other products that weren't Dupla are forumlations of their own. 

Regarding FloraBase, when speaking with the rep I asked about it being the same stuff as some of ADA's substrates. He didn't say "yes" but he didn't deny it either. Reps are notoriously closed-mouthed about the origins of their products and if the notion weren't true all he'd have to do is deny it. I can say for certain that it is volcanic clay baked with peat and it looks, feels, and tastes a lot like ADA's stuff.


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## AaronT

Phil Edwards said:


> I can say for certain that it is volcanic clay baked with peat and it looks, feels, and tastes a lot like ADA's stuff.


You tasted it? Wow, props to you man. That's some dedicated research. :lol:

Like I stated earlier I have both the ADA and the FB and I like the ADA better, but FB is supposedly close to Malaya and I have Amazonia. Also, the Amazonia I have has some powersand underneath so that could make the difference. Growth in the FB is very good though and if you can find it for say $20-$25 a bag it's a great way to go for smaller tanks that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to replace every year.

I wonder has anyone tried a homemade version with some regular clay and peat? It'd be quite tedious rolling all those little balls of substrate by hand... I suppose you could always bake one big block of it and crumble it into the consistency you want later.


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## Praxx42

jppurchase said:


> Tomm Barr is NOT a God...


How true.

I think the term "demi-god" probably fits the bill a little better.


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## aquaessentials

Well this thread has progressed quite a bit since yesterday so it has obviously been of interest!

Anyway, our Florabase arrived this morning and as promised I said I would check on the back of the bag as to where it is made. It's produced in Japan by a company called Hirose. It would be interesting if anyone knew anything about this company and perhaps what else they produce.

Interestingly enough it also appears to have the same consistency as a substrate made by Azoo, apltly names Plant Grower Bed. I wonder where in Japan that's made...

The plot thickens :razz:


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## jppurchase

*Plant Grower Bed*



aquaessentials said:


> Interestingly enough it also appears to have the same consistency as a substrate made by Azoo, apltly names Plant Grower Bed. I wonder where in Japan that's made...


Here is a direct cut & paste from AZOO's website:

PLANT GROWER BED 
For garden aquarium, aquatic plant aquariums and ponds. 
FEATURE: 
1. Long-lasting Basic fertilizer: Offer the nutrients for aquatic plants for released 12¡ã18 months, 
2. Decoloration: Decolorize the color by driftwood and purify the water for 12¡ã18 months. 
3. Water purification: prolong the water exchange period to once every 6 months easy to maintain. 
4. Stabilize pH: Keep the pH value at 6.5¡ã6.8, plants still can grow well without offering CO2, is best for discus, tetra and the fish that lives in the weak acid water environment. 
5. The best: The porous granular structure is easily penetrated by growing roots of the plants. 
6. Natural present: Looks nature and fits for any planting

We live in interesting times...

For what it is worth, AZOO seems to carry a rather complete line of well made goods for aquariums. Several years ago, I bought an AZOO substrate heating system from M3, but it doesn't look like they (AZOO) carry it any longer. I recently ordered an AZOO Glass Palm Aquarium from Drs. Foster & Smith. Its beautifully made, of 1/4" glass. Unfortunately, it seems that the UPS chaps played football with the box during transit, and the aquarium arrived damaged (severe crack). As I had paid over $80.00 US for shipping, more than double the cost of the aquarium, I was peeved. But a quick call to the Service Department at Drs. Foster & Smith calmed me down - they have sent out a replacement unit to me at no charge (and I don't have to send them the damaged unit back).

James Purchase
Toronto


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## aquaessentials

Azoo are a very good brand in my opinion (infact quite under-rated) but are yet to make a big impact in the UK. We began stocking their goods a few weeks back and I am just about to set up a tank with their Plant Grower Bed substrate. I'll let you know how it progresses.

If you want to see the whole Azoo planted range, have a look at our site.


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## jsenske

1. AQUA SOIL and Flora Base are NOT made by the same company. HIROSE DOES NOT make ADA AQUA SOIL. 

2. Dupla WAS bought out by RED SEA- a company based here in Houston. We have known the owner for 20 years. The old Dupla products are now made in ISRAEL (except Flora Base) by RED SEA. Flora Base is a similar concept to AQUA SOIL, but actually, in my opinion, is a mere attempt to capitalize on the success of AQUA SOIL without offering the all-important complement of POWER SAND. It's easier to sell just Flora Base- one product- it a marketing thing- one I fell for and subsequently regretted. 

3. If Tom Barr is not a GOD, he certainly is a dashing and lively chap and well worth listening to on most plant health/water conditioning topics.


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## plantbrain

jppurchase said:


> Tomm Barr is NOT a God, he doesn't know everything, nor does he have the "inside dirt" on the entire industry. Quite often, his off the cuff remarks get repeated as Gospel truth, without any further investigation to verify the accuracy of his claims.
> James Purchase
> Toronto


Verify my claims?
Since you feel so strongly and wish to challenge them, *you* should investigate my claims. You brought it up so do something about it.

I do know someone close to FB and ADA, they said it was made by the same maker. It was the maker that said this(but as mentioned, somewhat off the record). I also did some test with ADA substrates recently, it has NH4 in it.

And what have *you* offered here?

...........Irony has no limit.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Praxx42 said:


> How true.
> I think the term "demi-god" probably fits the bill a little better.


Me too
Tom "Demi God" Barr


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## Svennovitch

jsenske said:


> 2. Dupla WAS bought out by RED SEA- a company based here in Houston. We have known the owner for 20 years. The old Dupla products are now made in ISRAEL (except Flora Base) by RED SEA. Flora Base is a similar concept to AQUA SOIL, but actually, in my opinion, is a mere attempt to capitalize on the success of AQUA SOIL without offering the all-important complement of POWER SAND. It's easier to sell just Flora Base- one product- it a marketing thing- one I fell for and subsequently regretted.


Red Sea does have Flora Root to use in combination with the Flora Base. Does that product complement to the Flora Base like the Power Sand does to Aqua Soil?


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## Raul-7

Svennovitch said:


> Red Sea does have Flora Root to use in combination with the Flora Base. Does that product complement to the Flora Base like the Power Sand does to Aqua Soil?


I don't think so. Flora Root is a laterite-based additive that is supposed to be mixed in with your new substrate (just like regular laterite, only this is more expensive). It also includes a packet of Acid Flora which is "substrate bacteria" intended to be used with Flora Root.

And regarding Dupla, it must be co-owned because on Hobby's website says it all: http://www.dohse-aquaristik.de/index.html


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## jsenske

It's a complicated situation, but DUPLA in the USA is RED SEA. Or I should say, all the old Dupla products that "sold well" are now RED SEA products. They are made in different places than all the original Dupla products, though- Israel. Red Sea has always had manufacturing/production ties there.


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## jppurchase

*Dupla Hoopla*



jsenske said:


> It's a complicated situation, but DUPLA in the USA is RED SEA. Or I should say, all the old Dupla products that "sold well" are now RED SEA products. They are made in different places than all the original Dupla products, though- Israel. Red Sea has always had manufacturing/production ties there.


OK - the important question - are the current formulations for the various Dupla products (Duplagan, Duplaplant and Duplaplant 24, Duplarit) still the same as the old Dupla products? I've been using Dupla fertilizer products successfully for over 10 years and I've just ordered a new batch from Ottawa Aquatics which should arrive shortly. I'd hate to think that new corporate owners might have removed/added anything to the original, time tested formulations.

James Purchase
Toronto


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## Praxx42

plantbrain said:


> Me too
> Tom "Demi God" Barr


Hey, how could I *not* stand up for the guy who saved my tanks? I'd probably defend you and DJ Len if you two were accused of eating babies. I owe you two more than I probably realize.


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## jsenske

To the best of my knowledge the formulations are the same- they are supposed to be anyway. I used DuplaPlant 24 for a long time, but don't anymore and can't really say I see any difference. My dosing regimens have changes quite a bit since then also, though.


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## plantbrain

Praxx42I'd probably defend you and DJ Len if you two were accused of eating babies. I owe you two more than I probably realize.[/QUOTE said:


> We do eat babies, we call them seeds which are plant embryos.
> Poor baby plants, they never had a chance.
> I cannot condone any vegan wanna be moralistic attitude when they are in fact baby plant killers. Why do plants have a less right to life than critters?
> 
> The logic doesn't follow.
> 
> Florabase was made by the parent company, Hikari and they also supply ADA with the same material. It's different than Florabase mind you, ADA wanted different things and attributes.
> 
> By knowing what nutrients do what over time and during tank start up, you can tell what might be in a substrate without testing the substrate directly. Ideal we would, but significant growth differences, algae presences etc are caused by fairly well know mechanisms.
> 
> Adding soil to a substrate cause cause an algae bloom in the start up.
> 
> This is not due some mystery chemical, it's fairly easy to measure NH4 in it and note that a month of two later when the tank settles down, the NH4 is also gone.
> 
> If you cap the substrate well, add porous larger grains then the NH4 will convert to NO3 since there is enough O2 for the bacteria to oxidize the NH4.
> 
> If you tightly pack the substrate and add soil, then the NH4 will break down much slower and when you uproot in a couple of months, the NH4 will be poulled up and you will get an algae bloom.
> 
> This type of research and thinking is very useful in understanding what may be occuring with other substrates.
> 
> Since we can control the water column very well, you can test a number of things and responses from various substrates fairly easily in terms of plant health and growth(or algae).
> 
> Which is the focus here............
> 
> James,
> 
> If I've led someone astray here, please do tell.
> How and what did I do to support a myth?
> If you are an expert on wetland soils, offer up something.
> 
> There are many folks that do a lot of talk and not much research, instead asking others to look thing up for them and do the work.................then questioning it when the person looks it up for them or does the research or quick anaylsis.
> 
> Which are you going to be?
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

FB and ADA are made by the same parent company from what I know.
If you want to question this, please offer some support.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Laith

I'm confused!

Dupla's website (http://www.dohse-aquaristik.de/dupla/england/dupla/historie.php) states:

"In October 2003, the rights to the trademarks of the Dupla firm were acquired by Dohse Aquaristik KG of Grafschaft, Germany. The DUPLA brand is now continued and further developed by Dohse Aquaristik as an independent range alongside the over 50-year old aquarium brand name HOBBY."

There is absolutely no mention of Dupla on the Red Sea website... Does Dohse Aquaristik also own Red Sea? But if so it would be mentioned on their site no?

Maybe Dupla USA was bought by Red Sea USA and Dupla outside of the US was bought by Dohse Aquaristik?

But why is nothing mentioned on the Red Sea website? Is there more than one Red Sea? :???:

Major confusion here!


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## Phil Edwards

Laith,

The trend in aquaristics and aquatics companies these days is moving towards one or two large parent-owner companies who have control over a major share of the market. It wouldn't surprise me that the company that owns Red Sea also owns the company that purchased Dupla (as per the website). From what I've gathered though talking with those in the business is that Red Sea does indeed own Dupla now. Most companies don't really want to make it known that they own other brands. That way it preserves the idea that they're separate companies and folks who don't like one but like another will still buy from their favored brand, even though it's owned by their "competitor". 

Best,
Phil


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## plantbrain

Phil
From what I understand, Hikari owns the ADA/Florabase generic maker which is made in Japan.

You can have companies special make you a substrate also.
I've looked into it and some time release nutrient mixes than exclude NH4.
There are several in the USA.

The issue with substrates that make them prohibitly expensive is their shipping weight.

So local made will cost far less.

Kitty litter is a clay based material as well.
It is softer than ADA/FB, but does a great job and many folks have used it with soil. 

The problem is that it is too soft and messy.
1/2 cooking it with some nutrients added would make the mess and soft issue go away.

Removing the NH4 and adding NO3 instead would address the NH4 issue, or you could add some to a base and cap with a top that does not have NH4.
This is what ADA substrates appear to do.

There is no mystery about what makes a plant grow nor where the sounce of the nutrients come from.

The kitty litter 1/2 baked(as opposed to flourite=> fully baked) seems like what is done with the ADA and FB products. 

The ADA base powersand is still a porous peat coated with some nutrients added. 
Comparing FB to the 2 different ADA components is not a fair comparison for that reason.
Adding peat to flourite and adding nutrients to the water column will still do the same thing. I have tried adding nutrients to flourite and then capping with more flourite over top of that(say add some soil or KNO3/KH2PO4 soaked Flourite etc).


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dennis

Not to deviate even further off topic, but how do you add the nutrients to products, like flourite or kitty liter?


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## plantbrain

Dan Quackenbush, 
Now deceased, as well as others supported the use of Kitty litter much to the dismay of many initially.

Plain non scent cat litter(1-2$ for 25lbs) is added to the base, I added roughly 1"-2" and capped with 2" sand.

I tried out several versions. One with a RFUG, one without. Both had laterite and a little peat.

Some of the best hairgrass I've ever had filled in rapidly with it. 

Looking back, it would be interesting to add soil and KNO3/KH2PO4, miracle grow etc and let the clay cat litter absorb the nutrients.

Then cook the clay at a medium temperature range, not so much as to burn(oxidize) off then NO3 into N2 and O2 but enough to oxidize the NH4 and half cook the clay to reducethe messiness.

We know the clay will soak up the nutruients, whether the clay retains these nutrients in the firing process depends on the temp.

I think many folks are put off by the sound of kitty litter when discussing Flourite, ADA, FB but they are all clay basded materials and when cooked, become more and more porous depending on the temperatire and firing time.

You can control, the hardness and type of nutrients the clay will hold.

Using kitty litter over those red art clay balls is far superior, it is already ground up fine to allow the nutrients to be asorbed.

While many of you are surrounded with this notion of mysteries that are a substrate, looking at it from this perspective might give you all some insight.

This ain't voodoo magic.
You can add nutrients to the substrate exclusively and not dose the water column for awhile initially and then add more later.

In the past, folks merely attempted to reenrich the substrate as a long term method of fertilization. 

Non CO2 methods such as those supported by Diana Walstad and CO2 enrichment methods such as those supported by ADA shift gears after the initial nutrient supply is exhausted rather than attempting to enrich/dose the substrate.

This is different than the long term approach for dosing the nutrients.

I approached it from a water column only perspective for dosing as the counter to this(using RFUG's work well here for this). I do/did substrate enrichment also. These two methods give you a good perspective and I also used cables at the time(high flow, low flow and no flow substrate exchange/flux).

In this manner, I was better able to gauge the differences and relative impacts of these various nutrient locations and fluxes.

I think substrate fertilization is good depending on:

1. How messy it is.
2. If is has NH4
3. Density
4. Shelf life of effective use
5. Aquarist routine/known habits

Most all long term methods end up defaulting to the water column.
The question that comes up is why wait to dose. Pack the tank from the start, add mulm and dose the water column.
Works successfully with out issue (no algae).

Adding nutrients to both areas and then seeing if that has impact is the lithmus test and something I did some years and you guessed it, I added NH4 as well.

If the water column was supplied adequately, then there was no improvement in the growth rates. There are a dozen or so studies that support this, as well as relatively simple test aquarist can use to note this observation.

If you limit the water column and enrich the substrate, of course the plants will grow more roots, that's to be expected/I would expect that.

These roots add O2 and grow more bacteria in the substrate to get it off to a great start. But you will need to switch gears later by dosing to the water column to keep having the same results without tearing down the substrate and redoing it. 

Adding mulm from day one does the same thing as far as bacteria.
Roots grow in slower in a non fertilized substrate so the establishement of a bacteria colony that's stable takes more time but not a lot more. You could measure this a number of ways. 

After a month/two, the different tanks would even out in terms of growth.
Root's importance in the start may help some methods/personal habits.

Given the client's unwillingness to dose and many aquarist during the start up, this seems to work well.

Later, they can add more, most add fish once the plants have grown in well(adding to the water column source as the substrate becomes depeleted).

But if you look at the water column critically and the bacteria, mulm is what comes out an established tank's substrate correct?

Now if roots are so damn important.............why don't we have trouble after pruning them off every week, two weeks etc?

Do we want to grow roots or leaves and stems?
I think if you are not good at dosing the water column consistently, then a root back up source ain't bad.

But if not, then dosing the water column works well and is something you can test the concentration much easier.

You might consider enriching clay cat litter and then baking it.
It's fairly easy to test the nutrient retention and flux into the water.
A simple jar test will let you know.
I think there are more than few companies that will do the firing for you.
You can get various colors of clays/stain it as well etc

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Robert Hudson

I do not make as much of a claim to know inside things as Tom does, but my inside trade sources, (I actually work in the trade) is that Red Sea buys the material for Florabase mined from the same location in Japan as Amano's product. Supposedly Red Sea paid big bucks for the source contract. That does not mean it is made by the same company, it means the raw material comes from the same place. Tom may be right, maybe Hikari does own the mining and processing, I have no idea. It is very sensible that Amano would pay someone else to make the product, and another company could also buy it from the same source. This is very common. Japan's business world is made up of a few mega huge monopoly companies, and Hikari is part of one of them. But, as Jeff pointed out, Amano has several substrate additives, Red Sea has one, Florabase. Is it processed differently? Is anything different added? Who knows. Red Sea also distributes Dupla products in the USA. Every Red Sea distributor in the USA sells at least some Dupla products. Someone who used to be pretty high up in Red sea, who is now in business for himself told me Red sea bought Dupla long before it was ever announced, but that could mean many things: they may have only bought the rights to certain products, or distribution rights, or something else. They are obviously not making the details public.

When Dan Q first introduced the idea of kitty litter, it was before there was such a thing as Flourite, or any other clay gravel. It was an attractive idea for the thrifty penny pincher who did not want to lay out the money for laterite or mess around with soils. It was the poor mans simple substrate. Now we have all sorts of clay gravel substrates, and for the cost consience we have Schultz/Profile clay conditioner in 40 pound bags which is cheaper than kitty litter. It is also kinda hard to find pure clay kitty litter now a days, and with kitty litter you have no idea what the mineral content actually is. The iron and mineral content can vary greatly depending on what part of the country it is mined from, and it is not like you can get that kinid of information on the bag. Dan Qs research over 5 years ago determined that Hartz mountain kitty litter was the best. I don't even know if they still make it any more.

BTW, there has never been a Dupla USA. They have never had offices here. There have been various distributors and importers of dupla over the years, but no Dupla USA.


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## jppurchase

Robert, 

Thank you for your last post. Its nice to hear from someone who acturally works IN the trade. I also appreciate the fact that your writing style includes "complete" sentences (its the English Major in me I guess) which does'nt lead anyone to think you mean one thing while saying something else.

James Purchase
Toronto


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## Robert Hudson

James, it is nice to see you are as fiesty as ever! I have missed you. I am just trying to share whatever limited knowledge I have, not point fingers. I am a horrible speller, but I do try and write in complete sentences!


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## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Do we want to grow roots or leaves and stems?
> I think if you are not good at dosing the water column consistently, then a root back up source ain't bad.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I would think that having a consistently rich substrate and lower water column nutrients would grow all three; roots, stems, and leaves quite well. Wouldn't this be the ultimate situation? I pose that the reverse is true. If your substrate has poor nutrients then good water column dosing should be your backup. Is there anyone with thoughts on this?


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## cousinkenni

grandmasterofpool said:


> I would think that having a consistently rich substrate and lower water column nutrients would grow all three; roots, stems, and leaves quite well. Wouldn't this be the ultimate situation? I pose that the reverse is true. If your substrate has poor nutrients then good water column dosing should be your backup. Is there anyone with thoughts on this?


You do have a point, but......

Tom correct me if I am wrong (as I often am). Isn't it easier to dose the water colomn? It seems way harder to keep fertilizing the substrate (That is without the special ADA stick injector).

Yes it is easier to dose the substrate upon set up, but how would you do this over the course of three to four year period?

Anyway I see no problems with my root development using a relatively nutrient-free substrate and dosing the water column.

Either way should and probably does work 

Ken T.


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## AaronT

Oh it's definitely easier to dose the water column than to keep refertilizing the substrate. What I was posing is finding a way to make a substrate that lasts and lasts. You would still need to dose CO2, Nitrate, and Phosphate, but all the minerals could theoretically be provided by a good substrate. I know our tank's variables aren't the same as in nature, but it seems to work okay for it.


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## Happy Camper

grandmasterofpool said:


> Oh it's definitely easier to dose the water column than to keep refertilizing the substrate. What I was posing is finding a way to make a substrate that lasts and lasts. You would still need to dose CO2, Nitrate, and Phosphate, but all the minerals could theoretically be provided by a good substrate.


I always thought that it was either or. Plants either take in nutrients via the foliage if nutrients are present in the water column, or if none they would take a few days to convert back to root feeding from the substrate? Have I misunderstood this concept? To me it makes no sense to have Macro's in the water column and Micro's in the substrate. So which is it?


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## plantbrain

Most substrates already add the micro's in there, and some Ca/Mg/SO4.

Other than these, all that's left and needed in larger amounts: N, P, K and CO2.

Measuing and monitoring is another issue with a substrate.
It will be reduced if you increase the water column dosing, bobbing back and forth will stress plants.

Many folks do that if they try to run their ferts down low.
The ADA products do work well and simply for initial set up, but compared to what ginen the amount oif nutrients present?

I can do an easy set up with soil as well and say many of the same things.
This might be a bit to DIY for many folks.

But few can argue the growth produced in the first few months of a soil tank either if you don't add much to the water column(many new folks don't).

But I'd use ADA products for my own tanks over soil given a choice.

I think our attitudes and habits play and much larger role here than the substrate itself.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## cS

Are you sure that the nutrients in ADA's substrate are what account for the increased growth rate reported by some? If so, then it makes no sense why the same growth rate cannot be achieved through water column fertilization. After all, new plants have no roots. Ergo, acquisition of nutrients from the water column _should_ be preferred during this period. There's something else we're (at least I'm) not seeing.

Has anyone measured what levels of macronutrients the substrate is producing per week? Tom. You noted the presence of NH4. Any quantitative data? Any NO3/NO2/PO4/etc.? How about where the nutrients are coming from: the Powersand or the Aquasoil underlayer?

If Powersand is the (macro?)nutrient storage, then it should leach a large amount of nutrients into the water column, since it is the top layer after all. To be able to be utilized by plants, the nutrients must _first_ be in its ionic forms (i.e. "soluble"). If they are soluble, then they're in the water column. And if they're in the water column, then we should be able to detect them with our test kits.


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## dennis

I know much less about the deeper substrate chemistry of our tanks than I would like but: 

Doesn't the water softening/redox potential of the ADA substrates, due to the high peat/organics content, contribute to the avaliability of the bound and insoluable nutrients the substrate may contain? ADA also has many additives as part of the whole substrate system, Tourmaline, Penac and some varoius bacterial additives that should also contribute to the Redox and breakdown of componds in the soil. In a sense, isn't the ADA substrate system like a well aged substrate from and established tank...one always gets much better growth from year old Flourite than they do from week old Eco-Complete. 

How much of the growth from ADA substrates is a result of nutrients it contains verses the nutrients it makes available to the plants? Are there any additives of the ADA system that would affect root development?

I think we speculate alot about the ADA stuff simply because we do not know what is in it. Most of the fertalizer products are made to dose, just squirt it into the tank. The bottle does not say how much of varoius nutrients it contains, ratios of NO3O4, etc. There are squirt bottles for high light tanks, low light tanks, when the color of the plants is off, when the water seems dirty, for use after trimming, for use after a wc, etc. We don't know what is in them, although we can deduce alot based on the products use.

The substrate systems must contain nutrients though, often one does not start dosing the tanks for months (supposedly) and then the dosing is not like we are used to, with bags of powder and peroxide bottles of trace solutions. I think the bigger question is not if there are nutrients but rather what form the nutrients are in.


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## cS

Dennis, let's not talk about all ADA products. Let's simplify and discuss the substrate system since that is where the "potency" lies. And to simplify even further, we can ignore the bacteria, Penac, and all the other additives because they do not seem to contribute significantly to the "increased growth rate" since we have received reports of the same vigorous growth from hobbyists using ONLY the Powersand and Aquasoil. Therefore, we can deduce that the magic lies within one or both of these two components. The rest are negligible IMHO.

If we can agree that the Powersand and/or Aquasoil are responsible, then let's proceed.

In addition to light, plants require carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and 8 micronutrients in order to grow and complete its life cycle. (Aquatic) plants require them in the following ionic forms:

Carbon: CO2, HCO3-
Oxygen: CO2, HCO3-
Hydrogen: H2O
Nitrogen: NO3-, NH4+ (possibly NO2- as well?)
Phosphorus: H2PO4-, HPO4(2-)
Potassium: K+
Calcium: Ca2+
Magnesium: Mg2+
Sulfur: SO4 (2-)
Micronutrients: Fe2+, Fe3+ (served as the proxy ion for the others)

In other words, unless the nutrients are in these forms, plants are unable to uptake them. For example, plants _cannot_ uptake CaCO3. The CaCO3 must first be dissolved into Ca2+ and CO3-. For simplicity, the CO3- is of no consequence to the plant so they ignore it. The free Ca2+ ion is now able to enter the plant's tissues and contribute to growth. The same goes for the rest of the other nutrients.

Given those usable nutrient forms, we see that the Powersand/Aquasoil is not offering anything different than what we can get from Greg Watson.

---

But if we insist on the nutrients to be the key players, then we can rule out C, O, H, and S since we know that they are absent from the Powersand/Aquasoil. We can further rule out the 8 micronutrients since they alone cannot possibly cause the dramatic growth reported. We can even remove Ca and Mg as the culprits since they too are absent from the P/A. Not only that, the Aquasoil removes Ca and Mg from the water column through the peat effect. Therefore, hobbyists must overcompensate by dosing more than the usual amount of these two nutrients. But whatever. That's irrelevant.

Ok, that leaves us with the 3 major macronutrients: N, P, and K. What then does Powersand/Aquasoil provide that we cannot provide through the water column? Logically, nothing because we provide the exact same *forms* of nutrients that the P/A provide. Therefore, it can't be the form of the nutrients that causes the difference in growth.

Furthermore, does P/A provide all three macronutrients or just N? It's obvious that the nutrient reserve, leaching rate, and/or the root's ability to uptake stored nutrients is *not enough* because we still have to supplement the water column. Amano, the Senkse brothers, and even the existence of external fertilization product line attests to this fact. When do they start fertilizing? I would need Jeff and other users of P/A to chime in because I don't own this substrate system. I also would love to hear from test kit users because they can offer data on the leaching rate of the macronutrients.

But from what data we do have, I hope that you can see why I do not believe how the nutrients can possibly be the cause for the vigorous growth reported. There's something else. What do you think Dennis? Did I overlook or miss something? You're the one going back to school to be a mad scientist*. 

*Be a lawyer so you can team up with Art and ease the plants import laws so the rest of us can get some cool plants.


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## jsenske

I start dosing different layouts at different times- depending on species, density, observation, etc. There is no formula to it as every tank/layout is a little different. Even lighting, filtration, etc. can vary for me from tank to tank. It just takes time, experience, and intuition. Like anything in life, this will come more naturally to some than others. In the end, we all can get there, though. Regardless of the approach you take, substrate you use, etc., planted tanks will always require some fine tuning and the deployment of skills only acquired through experience and patience. 
I am not myself as interested in chemistry lessons as I am creating aquascapes so for me it suffices to know that Amano could use/develop any substrate system in the world. If a version of something already on the market was truly the best way to go, he would simply do his own version of that. Why not just give it a try?


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## dennis

You are definitely smarter than me, especially in the chemistry department, but I will offer more of my opinions](*,)



cS said:


> Dennis, let's not talk about all ADA products. Let's simplify and discuss the substrate system since that is where the "potency" lies. And to simplify even further, we can ignore the bacteria, Penac, and all the other additives because they do not seem to contribute significantly to the "increased growth rate" since we have received reports of the same vigorous growth from hobbyists using ONLY the Powersand and Aquasoil. Therefore, we can deduce that the magic lies within one or both of these two components. The rest are negligible IMHO.
> 
> If we can agree that the Powersand and/or Aquasoil are responsible, then let's proceed.


 I will agree with that since people talk about such amazing growth with only Powersand and Aquasoil. Those 2 components are the most important part, initially especially. However, my point in mentioning all the other products is that they are part of a system, not necessairly something hobbiests understand or know what they contain. In fact, how many of us follow the EI method without understanding it? Jeff has even mentioned somehting to the effect of, the color of the plants was off so I add a little (forget the product) and everything is great again. I just think we are trying to compare/anaylize something which we don't know the ingredients of. I do agree that msot of the sucess with the ADA products must come from either, or both, the Powersand and/or Aquasoil.



> In addition to light, plants require carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and 8 micronutrients in order to grow and complete its life cycle. (Aquatic) plants require them in the following ionic forms:
> 
> Carbon: CO2, HCO3-
> Oxygen: CO2, HCO3-
> Hydrogen: H2O
> Nitrogen: NO3-, NH4+ (possibly NO2- as well?)
> Phosphorus: H2PO4-, HPO4(2-)
> Potassium: K+
> Calcium: Ca2+
> Magnesium: Mg2+
> Sulfur: SO4 (2-)
> Micronutrients: Fe2+, Fe3+ (served as the proxy ion for the others)
> 
> In other words, unless the nutrients are in these forms, plants are unable to uptake them. For example, plants _cannot_ uptake CaCO3. The CaCO3 must first be dissolved into Ca2+ and CO3-. For simplicity, the CO3- is of no consequence to the plant so they ignore it. The free Ca2+ ion is now able to enter the plant's tissues and contribute to growth. The same goes for the rest of the other nutrients.
> 
> Given those usable nutrient forms, we see that the Powersand/Aquasoil is not offering anything different than what we can get from Greg Watson.


 Very true. That is an excellent list, btw! Its nice to have something showing just what ions are most useable by plants!

---



> But if we insist on the nutrients to be the key players, then we can rule out C, O, H, and S since we know that they are absent from the Powersand/Aquasoil. We can further rule out the 8 micronutrients since they alone cannot possibly cause the dramatic growth reported. We can even remove Ca and Mg as the culprits since they too are absent from the P/A. Not only that, the Aquasoil removes Ca and Mg from the water column through the peat effect. Therefore, hobbyists must overcompensate by dosing more than the usual amount of these two nutrients. But whatever. That's irrelevant.


 Is it? If they are stripped from the water column by the peat/organics then they are still available to the plants via the substrate. I do wish I knew more (anything really) about the ph influence/ Redox activity that goes on in the substrate.



> Ok, that leaves us with the 3 major macronutrients: N, P, and K. What then does Powersand/Aquasoil provide that we cannot provide through the water column? Logically, nothing because we provide the exact same *forms* of nutrients that the P/A provide. Therefore, it can't be the form of the nutrients that causes the difference in growth.
> 
> Furthermore, does P/A provide all three macronutrients or just N? It's obvious that the nutrient reserve, leaching rate, and/or the root's ability to uptake stored nutrients is *not enough* because we still have to supplement the water column. Amano, the Senkse brothers, and even the existence of external fertilization product line attests to this fact. When do they start fertilizing? I would need Jeff and other users of P/A to chime in because I don't own this substrate system. I also would love to hear from test kit users because they can offer data on the leaching rate of the macronutrients.
> 
> But from what data we do have, I hope that you can see why I do not believe how the nutrients can possibly be the cause for the vigorous growth reported. There's something else. What do you think Dennis? Did I overlook or miss something?


 Maybe something as simple as the NH4 it contains? Tom Barr stated that he tested it to have NH4 (or was it NH3?). I belive that this is the most desirable form of N to plants. Just think about how well your plants grow when you have green water. Sometimes you can barely see the plants but once the GW is gone, or you do a wc, you notice that the plants seem to have grown faster and better that usual...Perhaps due to the elevated NH4/3 levels in the water?

I like how you are eliminating nutrients that are the least important. I would speculate that in setting up a new tank, as long as the plants are moderately healthy to start with(ie, come from an established, healthy tank) then the most important nutrient after C(O2) would be N. I believe that any healthy plant speciemen will have good stored reserve of P and the the Micronutrients. N is the nutrient that a healthy plant will depleat first, or should I say its the nutrient first to cause the plant to show deficiency symptoms, when thrown into less than desireable conditions.

As an avid terrestrial gardner as well, what do you fertalize with to increase root growth and encourage folier development? K right? Whats the first solution used in and ADA setup, Brighty K and their water conditioner even contains alot of K, I believe.

I totally agree with everything you have said cS, and in my humble opinion I think the initial sucess lies in the NH3/4 and peat/organics the substrate contains. Like I said, I wish I knew more about how pH and redox work/affect substrates and nutrient availibility.

I would also speculate that the "softness" and porosity of hte substrate really encourages root development, much like a loamy/airy soil will do for terrestrial plants.

I hesitate to speculate further as I have reached the limit of my knowledge and also we don't know just what is in the substrate. I would also really love to know just what nutrients and componds are in it and how much they leach into the water column. Maybe Jeff will send us each a small batch for testing and research I would split a bag with you...although honestly someone with better lab tools and techniques would find out alot more than me



> If that is the case You're the one going back to school to be a mad scientist*.
> 
> *Be a lawyer so you can team up with Art and ease the plants import laws so the rest of us can get some cool plants.


 Shhh! You will spoil my evil plan.


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## owengibson

Erirku said:


> I thought posting a thread is to confirm and get answers? I didn't know I had to write the facts! It's just what someone who had told me, and hes been in the petshop bussiness, for awhile. Geez.


Interesting thread!

Did you ever get your answer eriku! LOL

I think plants like ammonia, but fish dont lol, so make the water acid and ANY substrate will be better?

I had to say SOMETHING after reading ALL that!


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## Erirku

Geez, this thread has really gotten very interesting! Don't you think so? I think my question has been answered from this thread. And I like what I see.


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