# Can something like this be done?



## dow (May 1, 2020)

Hey,

While I've had a planted tank for a couple of years, it's been pretty minimal. Basically just plant the plants, feed the fish, and trim the plants when they need it.

Until now.

I had the misfortune of running across the youtube channel for green aqua (https://www.youtube.com/user/viktorlantos), and was flabbergasted by the beautiful hardscaping and aquadscaping work I saw there. So I thought, "man, I've got to figure out how to do that."

Then I found out that they're using injected CO2, regular dosing of ferts, expensive canister filters, lots of water changes, and lots of light, not to mention special ADA soil, special ADA tanks, special ADA hardware, special ADA secret sauce, etc., etc. All of which says "OMG That's some serious bucks there." I don't know if I want to get back into the kind of money and maintenance time I spent back when I had reef tanks. Not if there's any other way.

So my question is, can that type of work be done with the Walstad method? Tanks that look bigger than they actually are, so to speak, with lots of depth and... gosh, I'm not sure how to explain it. If so, how involved is it, and can you show me some examples of tanks that are similar to something like these?


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

The extra CO2 is for the brighter light demanding carpet plants. I don't see why not adding CO2 into a NPT even though dirted tank does generate a little CO2.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

I know that gorgeous tanks featuring difficult plants can be created by aquascaping techniques and throwing in a ton of money. However, I've always worked within the confines of what I preach in my book. 

If you can get what you want by tinkering with an NPT, then go for it! The question is: when an organic soil runs out of CO2 about 6 months after setup, will the carpet plants have enough CO2? Are they competing with larger, more robust plants? Here's where the number of fish (wonderful generators of plant nutrients) and the outgassing of CO2 by filters/aeration all come into play.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

dwalstad said:


> If you can get what you want by tinkering with an NPT, then go for it! The question is: when an organic soil runs out of CO2 about 6 months after setup, will the carpet plants have enough CO2? Are they competing with larger, more robust plants? Here's where the number of fish (wonderful generators of plant nutrients) and the outgassing of CO2 by filters/aeration all come into play.


Can we make extend indefinitely the CO2 by 'fertilizing' the substrate with Carbon, say putting sugar pills into the substrate?


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## dow (May 1, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> I know that gorgeous tanks featuring difficult plants can be created by aquascaping techniques and throwing in a ton of money. However, I've always worked within the confines of what I preach in my book.
> 
> If you can get what you want by tinkering with an NPT, then go for it! The question is: when an organic soil runs out of CO2 about 6 months after setup, will the carpet plants have enough CO2? Are they competing with larger, more robust plants? Here's where the number of fish (wonderful generators of plant nutrients) and the outgassing of CO2 by filters/aeration all come into play.


Thanks for your reply. I'm just starting to work through your book, and at this point, it's taking me a while to even figure out which question I want to ask first, and how best to phrase that question.

At this point, I'm not sure which plants are "easy" and which are "difficult." one website says that a given plant is a good "beginner's plant," while another says that it's "challenging." So I'm trying to muddle my way through. 

So from the standpoint of an NPT system, can you still successfully aquascape with rocks or driftwood, and create an interesting landscape? It seems like so many of the NPT tanks that I've seen pictures of are just flat with lots and lots of plants. Now, I'm all for lots of plants, I really love them, especially since I grew up during that time when every aquarium had an undergravel filter, air pumps, plastic plants, and an algae scraper. :mrgreen: But I'd like to have something more interesting in there from a "natural structure" standpoint.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

The unique thing about those three tank photos is that they have few plants and lots of rocks, and, of course, they are beautiful. If you tried to marry that type of tank with an El Natural tank I suspect it would end quickly in an unhappy divorce! However, you can do something at least similar by how you locate the plants in your tank, and by using a couple of large rocks that rest on the bottom of the tank, instead of on the substrate. You can also use a dramatic piece of "drift wood", sitting on the bottom of the tank, not on the substrate. Your chances of success would be less than for our typical El Natural tank, but I think it can be done successfully. I suggest you give it a lot of thought, about plants, about wood, about rocks, and how to avoid deviating too much from the El Natural ideas. If you do this, please, please start a journal to let all of us watch as you do it!


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## Duckweed Hunter (Jun 3, 2010)

You can still achieve a beautiful scape with a lowe tech tank. You would just have to pick your plants to meet your setup. Lowe light plants just grow slower. So you would have to either have more patins or start with more plants to fill the scape more. The small bright green carpeting plants do by far better with Co2. Not to say its imposable without it but most likely is for the normal hobbyist. I would take some serious trial and error to get it right (how many fish do I need, How much water movement is right, How often and how big of water changes do I do). It's a very slippery slope to try and maintain such a regiment. Coming from someone that has had a reef tank and planted tanks they as much work as you make them. If you don't want to deal with weekly water changes and trimming plants all the time stay lowe tech. If you want that "ADA" look get a Co2 setup and trim and water change as needed.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

Tropica's site categorize difficulty, CO2 levels.

https://tropica.com/en/plants/


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

The main way the tanks in your photos differ from what is possible in a Walstad tank is the biomass of the plants. Walstad tanks rely on a critical amount of planting for stability, good water chemistry, and algae control. If you picture any of those tanks with a curtain of vallisneria or tall crypts across the back or two sides, then you are in the realm of the possible.


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## aquabillpers (Apr 13, 2006)

My 29 gallon NPT has been set up for more than 10 years. The only things that have been added to it are fish food and water, and an occasional fish. No new plants. I'm sure that the original soil substrate has turned to clay and whatever nutrients it contained originally have long been depleted.

It is densley planted and needs pruning every 2 or 3 weeks. It gets pruned every 2 or 3 months. Over time the crypt wendtii won the battle for light. The only other plant in the tank are pygmy chain swords, which were down to 4 individuals at one point, but since I cut back the crypts they are flourishing.

I don't worry about where the plants get their carbon. Obviously they just do.

I like my aquariums to be as close to being a natural environment as possible, with fish, plants and inverts living like they might in the wild. High tech tanks grow beautiful plants, but they seem sterile to me.

Best, Bill


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## dow (May 1, 2020)

Thanks for all of the great responses and encouragement.

hoppycalif: I had read that you don't want to block the substrate with rocks, but that it's better to build up the substrate around any rocks or wood. It's nice to know that what I'd like to do is at least possible, even if less likely to succeed.

Duckweed Hunter: Thanks for the encouragement. Lots of things are done by trial and error. This is no different from that standpoint.

mistergreen: Thanks for the link to Tropica's site. The categories will help a bunch.

Michael: Thanks for the plant recommendation for the back or sides. Incidentally, isn't that some vallisneria on the right end of the first picture, the one with the long branches in it? Whatever it is is some long grassy looking leaves that look to be growing up to the surface, and then flowing out from there.

By the way, I've been reading a couple of your tank journals this evening, Hidden Spring and Tributary, which you mentioned in the Aquascaping in Low-Tech thread, back in 2011. The second is along the lines of what I'd like to do, but maybe have the rocks a little more vertical in orientation. Any chance that one's still in existence?

aquabillpers: It's good to hear that these tanks can thrive long-term. That's really good to know. As much as I enjoy messing with aquariums, the thought of HAVING to baby one really isn't something that I'd be looking forward to.

.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> Can we make extend indefinitely the CO2 by 'fertilizing' the substrate with Carbon, say putting sugar pills into the substrate?


Please don't add sugar to your tanks. Sugar is fast, fast-food. I did it once and never again! It will start a bacterial bloom like none other! Suck up oxygen and kill plant roots.

Fishfood is the best fertilizer. It degrades slowly and has all nutrients, including CO2, that plants need.

Remember that the continuous fishfood input generates and releases DOC into the water. You can't see the DOC, but it's there. Bacteria slowly degrade it into CO2 that plants can use. The trick is to add enough fishfood AND not overclean the tank. (Changing water removes the DOC.)

Thus, these older tanks can keep going without "fertilizers", even when much of the soil organic matter has decomposed.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

dow said:


> Michael: Thanks for the plant recommendation for the back or sides. Incidentally, isn't that some vallisneria on the right end of the first picture, the one with the long branches in it? Whatever it is is some long grassy looking leaves that look to be growing up to the surface, and then flowing out from there.
> 
> By the way, I've been reading a couple of your tank journals this evening, Hidden Spring and Tributary, which you mentioned in the Aquascaping in Low-Tech thread, back in 2011. The second is along the lines of what I'd like to do, but maybe have the rocks a little more vertical in orientation. Any chance that one's still in existence?.


I think the grassy plant in that tank is a tall species of _Eleocharis_, maybe _E. vivipara_. I did have some in a Walstad tank and it did well, but I could never keep the hair algae out of it.

Wow! I had totally forgotten about that journal, you are very kind to find it. Yes the tank still exists, it is my longest running aquarium. I am inspired to give it a trim and take some LONG overdue photos. To answer your question, the stones could be much more vertical and it would improve the composition. Never underestimate the ability of plants to cover up all your careful rock work!


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## bertha (Sep 19, 2018)

Will be fun follow


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## dow (May 1, 2020)

Michael said:


> Wow! I had totally forgotten about that journal, you are very kind to find it. Yes the tank still exists, it is my longest running aquarium. I am inspired to give it a trim and take some LONG overdue photos. To answer your question, the stones could be much more vertical and it would improve the composition. Never underestimate the ability of plants to cover up all your careful rock work!


I'd be interested in seeing it. Did you ever have any trouble with the holey rock? I was reading somewhere that it could be a problems with changing the water hardness. Truth be known, I'd have a hard time believing anything could make our hill country water any harder. You can just about chip a tooth on a glass of tea around here.

I'm thinking about either using that or maybe lava. Still haven't made up my mind yet.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

No problems whatsoever with the limestone holey rock, and I've used it in many other tanks. But I've always kept fish and plants that are tolerant of hard water. Tap water here has about 160-180 ppm total dissolved solids (TDS). Water in the tank usually is 200-250 ppm.

Since you are in ground zero of holey rock, I think you should use it. There are wonderful sculptural examples that remind me of Chinese scholar's stones or gonshi. Most aquascapes that make extensive use of stone are modeled on Japanese iwagumi, a very spare, restrained style. Gonshi are displayed in much freer (sometimes flamboyant) landscapes or as single sculptures appreciated for their own sake. I don't think this style has been attempted much in planted aquaria.


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## dow (May 1, 2020)

Michael said:


> ...There are wonderful sculptural examples that remind me of Chinese scholar's stones or gonshi. Most aquascapes that make extensive use of stone are modeled on Japanese iwagumi, a very spare, restrained style. Gonshi are displayed in much freer (sometimes flamboyant) landscapes or as single sculptures appreciated for their own sake. I don't think this style has been attempted much in planted aquaria.


NOW you've done it! last night I had to go and read all about gonshi. [smilie=b:[smilie=b:

Oddly enough, nobody around Boerne seems to have any holey rock, or honeycomb rock as it's also called. If i wasn't looking for some, I'd probably be tripping over chunks of it.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

You might find some interesting stones at a landscaping store. The only problem might be the stones might weigh a ton.


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## dow (May 1, 2020)

Fortunately, I found out that a friend had a bunch of holey rock on his land, and he let me come out and pick up a bunch of it. I haven't done much else since then, but since the tank is a father's day gift, I've been gathering all the other pieces that I'll need to get up and running.


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## dow (May 1, 2020)

Back on page 1, hoppycalif said, among a lot of other good things:


hoppycalif said:


> ... If you do this, please, please start a journal to let all of us watch as you do it!


Well, since he asked, here it is:

Dow's 40 breeder journal

I'd sure appreciate your thoughts and recommendations as things go along.


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