# Water parameters



## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Hello All,

I setup a small 5.5Gal tank about month and half ago.
For the substrate I used play sand (washed and boiled)
Light 36W odyssea 50/50 - I have it on for about 8 hours a day
Aquaclear 20 filter
DYI CO2 - having problems, leaks from feettings. Work in progress to fix that

Plants:

Echindorus Tenellus Micro
Rotala Rotundifolia
Anubias
Taiwan Moss

Fish:

Fancy Guppy - 3
Corydoras Schultzei black -4

Tank was cycled.
Water was as following:
on the 3 week (after cycling)
gH - 35ppm (as per API gH kH test)
kH - 35ppm (as per API gH kH test)
pH - 7.1
Temp - 78F
Ammonia - 0

And I always do once a week 30% WC

I tested water today, and here what I got:

kH - 17 maybe even lower (one drop of kH solution and water in the tube was very bright yellow)
gH - 53.7ppm
pH - 8 almost
Temp - 78F
Ammonia - 0

I think this water parameters are complitly off, and I don't want to start loosing fish or plant.
Can you please help me to stabilize water chemistry?
I know that CO2 will bring down pH, so later tonight I will have CO2 going

I did emergency WC and installed air stone

Here is some pictures:





Thanks
Aram


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice post; most people aren't so forthright with specs when asking for help. A diagnostic picture is always good too.

I'd say either your pH or your KH test is shot. That or you've been using some sort of medication; some of them mess with test kits pretty bad.

I'd take some 4KH solution from your drop checker (I'm presuming you use this, not RO water) and try the KH test on that. If it tests low, then you've got your answer. If you don't have 4kh solution, something like 30mg/L of baking soda = 17.86ppm KH/alk. You can make your own 4kh solution for a drop checker if you have a good scale and some DI water to do diluting with, or you can use a 1/64th teaspoon and have something good enough for spotting large inaccuracies on a KH test kit.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for replay Philosophos.

I don't use any medication.

What do you refer as drop checker? on the left in my tank it's a diffuser for CO2 that never worked 
Since I had issues with setup...

I do have a Drop Checker that unused with test liquid that it came with, I can try that...
And what is the concept? Same as API kit? adding drops till water changes the color?

The test kit that I have is brand new, and I use it on my other tank, and it looks OK to me

Sorry, don't have DI and scale, all tho looking for one, in this hobby it's a good idea to have one

Thanks again
Aram


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## armedbiggiet (May 6, 2006)

Looking at your plants list... plus the lighting you had I am sure that you do not need CO2 for growing them. PH 7.0-7.2 are okay for your fish too. 5.5g is very small and hard to stabilize as any little change you made it would be alot to the stuff in side of that tank so what ever you do, do it slow and take your time for it. Fix your leak of the CO2 and bring back some PH numbers!


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Oh, it's a diffuser >.<

Drop checkers are CO2 indicators for your tank. They use low range pH test indicators and (idealy) a solution calibrated to a certain KH range (usually 4dKH) then indicate pH via diffusion in a diving bell type thing: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/5/aquarium_album/drop_checker.jpg
It's a compressed CO2 related toy for the most part.

If it's not your KH test kit, then it's probably the one for pH. Take it to a LFS that has a pH meter, and compare.

If all of that isn't it, then there's something besides carbonates buffering your water... do an NH4 check if you've got the kit, and if you're using any sort of ion exchange resin in your filter, stop.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for advice armedbiggiet.


Philosophos, sorry for confusion  it's just a glass diffuser, and it's upside down after I disconnected the CO2 line. I am using it as a airstone for now ...

I will take water sample to the LPS

Thanks
Aram


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Update:

After fixing a major leak in my DIY CO2 setup, I start getting about 1pps CO2
And it's been working since. I measured pH after 12 hours and it dropped to 6 ppm
I guess the tank is too small (as was mentioned by *armedbiggiet*) to balance, but I have seen people around here having a little tanks with very nice balanced environment.
Also, I did noticed after CO2 injection, tank developed a tin film (never had that on this thank after it was cycled) and some foam here there, like a male bettas swam by 

So as soon I see that my pH dropped drastically, I installed a T-Valve right after CO2 bottle, and attached to it airline with check valve. Basically I made a poor mans solenoid :wink:
If the solenoid is connected toward T-valve (with open side) CO2 escapes, witch means no CO2 in the tank. So I ran back and forth, turning check valve to limit the CO2 ...

My question is, is it dangerous for fish or plants to drop the pH almost 1.1 point?

Here is the rest of my water specs:
kH - 35.8ppm UP after CO2
gH - 71.6ppm UP after CO2
Ammonia - 0
Temp - 78F
pH - *6.8 !*

Also plants start having a little yellow spots here there, on the original post there where just planted.

Thanks
Aram


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Small tanks can be balanced. They get tricky based on proportions, but if you can wrap your head around them, it's not so bad. I run some very stable 10 gals because I don't do things like putting my bare hands in them, rip out half the plants, or change the fauna up very much. The light also stays low, so the tanks run slower.

Don't get all worried about your CO2; lots of us do it. I've had tanks that do swings of 6.3-7.2 in 24 hours depending on the CO2 timing. It's really the KH, not the pH, that creates big issues. Many of these plants (esp. the ones from rainforests) thrive in conditions that see nonexistent KH, and pH's commonly playing the 5.0-7.0 range depending on whether you're at delta or basin, in the rainy or dry season. Others are slew plants or noxious weeds. This isn't to say that some plants don't have their preferences, but if you aren't running uniquely hard water plants, I don't know of any soft water aquatic macrophytes that are going to complain about hardness or pH in your parameters.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

So from what I understand, I think I have a too much light at this point.
As I mentioned in my original post I did reduced from 12 to 8 hours.
Do you think lowering even more, will make any sense? 

I have 36W so it brings me to 6.5 wpg !

And the only time I have my hands in the tank when I scrape the front glass wall from some small spots of nasty dark green algae 

Also, do I need to use any type of fertilizers at this point?

Thank You,
Aram


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Half your lighting level for a start, and yes; definitely ferts. You've got plenty of methods to choose from there, but one way or another I'd recommend premixed liquid or weighed powder for a tank that small. Accuracy is difficult with little measuring spoons when you're trying to dose 5 gal.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Philosophos!

To cut the light in the half:
Do you think is better to use 4 hours instead of 8, or just change the light fixture from 36W to 18W and continue with 8 h?

The second part of my question is allot difficult to accomplish. I have never seen a good low wattage light for small tank. Maybe I will look around for DIY LED setup 

I ordered digital lab scale (ebay), I am going to try Estimative Index

Aram


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Use half the wattage. Healthy plants on 4 hours a day is something I've heard of accomplished with high CO2, but never witnessed for my self.

At 18w requirement, I'm sure lighting will get creative. LED's can be nice, and there are miniature fluorescent bulbs at hardware stores. If you're finding it difficult, find a way to raise your large light higher off the water; if you're feeling nerdy, the inverse square law should guide you to how high is required for 1/2 of your existent lighting. If not, trial and error will work.

Glad to hear you got the scale; rolling your own liquids takes some work, but it's worth it IMO.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Hello All,

I have an update on my setup.
I am still not happy 

Here what I have done so far:
Lowered wattage on the light fixture to 18W and it's on for about 8 h/d.
I stopped DIY CO2. pH was very low and I think that was the reason why my 2 Black Cory died :Cry:
I start dosing dry fertilizers from EI. PMDD (mix of KNO3, MgSO4, K2SO4 and CSM+B) 5 drops /d for past 2 weeks.

After all this changes here is my water readings:
kH - 35.8ppm
gH - 76.6ppm
Ammonia - 0
Temp - 79F
pH - 7.2

no C02

Now please take a look on my plants, the only plant that looks good to me is the X-Mass moss 


Rotala Rotundifolia
top part grew in this tank, as you can see it's deformed and not in full color


same story here




this is Echindorous Tenellus Micro. Did not even grew a single leaf


this plant I need to identify. I picked up yesterday from FS, guy told me the name, but I forgot.

As you can see from this pictures, roots are growing from allover the plants, but no leafs, and if there is "any" they have no color.

I have this plants for almost a month.
I do my WC once a week 40%

Thanks
Aram


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Low pH did not kill your corries. Creating acidosis with a DIY CO2 unit is something I've never seen or heard of happening. At very best you equaled low end compressed CO2 levels. Check the symptoms of what killed them; were they gasping at the top first? Swimming around like they're drunk? The entire tank should've been showing stress colors and migrating upwards or losing their balance if they were gassed.

Because you've stopped the DIY CO2, you now have a BGA outbreak. Start using it again, and add excel.

You may also want to consider getting some KH2PO4 in there.

*edit* your plants look stunted from a lack of CO2 as well; all the more reason to get the DIY going again.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Philosophos for reply!

Well if DIY CO2 can not be overdoes and cause acidosis, then it was Flying Fox who killed my C. Schultzei (2 out of 4). Very nasty (rat like) territorial fish. 
Small C. had no marks of "abuse", I think he may bee been crashed agents tank wall, the second one (a slightly bigger) had some damage on the top fin and tail.
No abnormal swimming or discoloration.
Pair of FF is out my tank. Let me tell you, that was major fish catching, to remove them. 
I end up replanting and a little rescaping my tank.
Philosophos, all plants have very heavy duty root structure, it's just very strange how come leafs are not growing 

CO2 bottle is getting ready as I type this massage, and I will add excel very shortly.
Do I need to dose excel always? Or this just to stop the algae.

I think algae start growing after I added 36W light. After I downgraded my light to 18W and cleaned all walls, I don't see much green spot algae since.

Thanks,
Aram


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

paronaram said:


> Philosophos, all plants have very heavy duty root structure, it's just very strange how come leafs are not growing


Roots don't make up near as much mass as stem or leaf on a submerged aquatic macrophyte. Your leaf growth is low because these plants are something like 40-50% carbon, and they use it for their cell wall structure. If the carbon isn't there, those cells won't grow properly, and quite often you'll end up with stunted/twisted stems and leaves.



> CO2 bottle is getting ready as I type this massage, and I will add excel very shortly.
> Do I need to dose excel always? Or this just to stop the algae.


I'd dose excel until everything is under control. Once the algae is gone, your fertilizers are in, and your plants have been growing healthy for about a month, try removing it from your dosing to see what happens. On the other hand, if it never improves, you may want to try raising the light higher above the tank or obscuring it some how.

-Philosophos


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Philosophos for detailed explanation.
I will update this thread in 2-3 weeks after I see some changes.

Aram


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Flying Fox (_Epalzeorhynchus kalopterus_)is an aggressive, shark-like fish for a MUCH larger tank. Trying to keep even one in a 5 gallon set up will not work. Better to research the fish before buying.

What are the parameters of the water you are using for water changes? Tap water or something else? If the water you use for water is stable (same parameters every time), and you are doing enough water changes, then the aquarium should balance out pretty close to the parameters of this water, plus whatever fertilizers you are using.

Some tap water is really weird, perhaps well water that passes through some odd minerals, or municipal water that is treated somehow that alters the water chemistry. If either of these are the case you might be better starting with RO or distilled and adding a precise recipe of minerals every time, and get away from whatever weird things might be going on with the tap water.

Once you settle on how you want to handle things give it a while to show you what is going on, and how each change will end up affecting things. A few days or a week is not long enough to see the long term effects. Do not change too many things at one time. If something bad happens you may not know which of several changes started the 'bad' thing (for example algae growth) or even if it was not today's change, but something you did a week ago that triggered it.

Sometimes the best thing is to step away from the tank and let it find its own balance without constantly altering things.


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for advice!
I was actually shopping for SAE (Epalzeorhynchus Siamensis) and LFS sold me Epalzeorhynchus Kalopterus and told me it's SAE.

I am using conditioned (PRIME) tap water.
I will post water parameters later today...

Thanks again


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## paronaram (Mar 27, 2009)

Hello All,

I have some updates on my setup.
Tank is turned to a "jungle", but I am not trimming yet because I am still not happy with some of the plants growth proses, I would like to find out what causes plants not to grow properly!
And I need your input on this PLEASE!

Here is my water parameters:

Tap water:
kH - 16.9
gH - 53.7
pH - 7.1

Tap+Prime (2 drops on 5Gal) after 24 hours:
kH - 25.8
gH - 53.7
pH - 6.8

Water from tank:
kH - 20
gH - 140
pH - 6.3
Ammonia - ~0.01 (skipped last week WC)


Main View. As you can see some of the plants grow very much


Hygrophila polysperma - has no algae, but as you can see new leaves are deformed. On the old leaves I found some LBA.


This is what left from Rotala Rotundifolia, looks like all stems are in the same condition. The leaves that are still present have some brown spots (potassium deficiency?)

Only plant that "grows" with no major problems is Moss (Taiwan and X-Mas), Anubias (I found 4 new clean leaves) and one plant that I can't identify looks like Hydrotriche hottoniiflora, but I am not sure.
It's the one right above left clay pot, on the first picture.

Philosophos - I finally got my hands on Mono Potassium Phosphate. I need some help with dosing ...
With instructions that it came with it stated that I need to mix 3/4 tsp in 1L distilled water and it will make me 0.3% P2SO4. I tried to look up some information in the forum(s) on dosing / mixing, but all those instructions a little complex ...
Is there anyway to make this work without getting degree in biology 

Thanks!

PS DIY CO2 always present, only for past week I had none (I was away) It start running again for past 48 hours


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

> Philosophos - I finally got my hands on Mono Potassium Phosphate. I need some help with dosing ...
> With instructions that it came with it stated that I need to mix 3/4 tsp in 1L distilled water and it will make me 0.3% P2SO4. I tried to look up some information in the forum(s) on dosing / mixing, but all those instructions a little complex ...
> Is there anyway to make this work without getting degree in biology


No need for a degree. To start things off, I'd recommend mixing your PO4 solutions individually given your current method. Things will not end well if you mix KH2PO4 with the PMDD/EI hybrid stock that you've got already. Consider dosing on opposite days; dose the same cumulative amount of your N-K-Micro mix per week, but do it over 3 days instead of 7.

5.731643607g/L KH2PO4 (round to whatever your scale can handle) will create a solution that increases the PO4 by 4ppm/ml in every L of column dosed. Simple formula being:

Desired ppm PO4 / 4 * Column in L

Personally, I'd dose 1ml for every 2L.

Now as for what's going on with your plants, getting the PO4 in will say a lot. I'm seeing the possibility of nitrogen or iron issues (hard to tell from the pic) but a lot of the stunting/leaf shed is from lack of PO4 and/or CO2. It's likely going to be that adding the KH2PO4 will help, but as with all of us you're going to spend a lot of your time working on CO2 levels and distribution. Either way, get the PO4 right, put some time into learning CO2, and we'll deal with what ever remains after.

-Philosophos


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