# [Wet Thumb Forum]-calclium chloride revisited



## gmaniac (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi all

After reading tons of posts on deficiencies and doing trial and error with all the macronutrients, and other micros, I've narrowed my stunted growth and new tip growth problem down to (I hope) Calcium deficiency. My tap water is at ph 7 KH1, GH3. I bought some calcium chloride pellets from pool supply store and am wanting to dose it into my 75 tank...here is the MSDS sheet:

http://www.teretehottubs.co.uk/hsds/MSDS%20BGD%20Balance%20Pak%20300.pdf

what are appropriate calcium levels for a plant tank (in ppm) and how much should I dose to achienve this.

Going by Roger's old posts, I would do 1 tsp per 50G to raise the gh up 1 dHG.... but how does that translate into normal tank levels of calcium. I do dose mag sulfate currently and sodium bicarb (more for KH) as well to raise the GH to about 8-10

thanks!

Gilly


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## gmaniac (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi all

After reading tons of posts on deficiencies and doing trial and error with all the macronutrients, and other micros, I've narrowed my stunted growth and new tip growth problem down to (I hope) Calcium deficiency. My tap water is at ph 7 KH1, GH3. I bought some calcium chloride pellets from pool supply store and am wanting to dose it into my 75 tank...here is the MSDS sheet:

http://www.teretehottubs.co.uk/hsds/MSDS%20BGD%20Balance%20Pak%20300.pdf

what are appropriate calcium levels for a plant tank (in ppm) and how much should I dose to achienve this.

Going by Roger's old posts, I would do 1 tsp per 50G to raise the gh up 1 dHG.... but how does that translate into normal tank levels of calcium. I do dose mag sulfate currently and sodium bicarb (more for KH) as well to raise the GH to about 8-10

thanks!

Gilly


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Do I understand right that your tap water has 3 degrees GH and you add magnesium sulfate to raise it to 8-10 degrees GH?

Something like 4-7 dGH is good, but people report good growth with less than 4. More than 7 won't hurt -- the water can have 17-24 degrees GH without problems.

Whatever the hardness is, you want it to be made up of both magnesium and calcium. The magnesium:calcium ratio isn't particularly important as long as it's within reason. The guidance from hydroponics literature says that the magnesium concentration shouldn't be greater than the calcium concentration.

If I understand your current dosing schedule correctly then you are giving your tanks a magnesium:calcium ratio that is at least 1:1 and could easily be 2.5:1 or higher. That means to me that *if* you have a calcium problem then you might actually be causing it yourself by overdosing on magnesium. Depending on how much sodium bicarb you use it's also possible for the sodium to contribute to the problems.

I like to stick to fairly minimal dosing. The less you add the less likely you are to run into problems with what you add. Given the values you cited I would start by adjusting my tap water from 1 dKH to 4 dKH and balance that by increasing the GH from 3 dGH to 4 dGH with calcium chloride. If plants started showing symptoms of magnesium deficiency then I would add some magnesium sulfate, but probably not more than enough to raise the GH by one degree.


Roger Miller


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## gmaniac (Apr 8, 2004)

thanks for the reply Roger

Let me clarify.... my tapwater is 6 GH, 2KH (tested tonight) 

After a 75% water change of 66 gallon tank (75 G minus the gravel and wood) , I added 10 grams of Mag Sulfate to bring the concentration of the tank to 4 ppm (per chuck's calculator) 

Over the past 3 days, I then added 2 tbl of Sodium bicarb, and 4 tsp of CaCl2. The tank now reads GH 15.

pH reads 6.7 (controlled with CO2) 

Fish are seemingly fine, plants are pearling, and yet still no really healthy growth. I'm so bummed .... .. .most plants started out doing OK, then the tops burn out (became a nub and stopped propagating) and then the bottom leaves started getting darker green/brown in color and are accumulating spot algae and appear to be dying off. I just dont get it.

Some nutrient MUST be limiting in my tap water, because this seems to happen with plants like L. Pantonale. L. ovalis, R. Macandra, A. Gracilis.. Red Telenthera, R. Indica, P. gayi, E. Stellata,L. Hippiroides they grow to a point, then either stop growing taller or the stems rot. 
The only plants that are really growing well are the watersprite and the mexican oak leaf

thanks for any input. I guess I need advice on a dosing regimen for the 66 gal volume, given a starting point of my tapwater

I really doing want to make this as complicated as I am making it :-( just can't understand want is going on over the past 4 months

GM


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Gilly,

I think you can simplify things pretty easily. Stop worrying about the calcium and magnesium. With 6 dGH in your tap water you shouldn't have a problem with either calcium or magnesium. There are weird cases where deficiencies of magnesium or calcium happen when there is a reasonable hardness, but they are rare.

As far as the growth problems are concerned, what kind of trace additions are you using and how much?


Roger Miller


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## gmaniac (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi Roger

I know I may be "fishing" for answers with a Calcium deficiency, but I am out of other options...
Other macros are fine... 
I do 50% water changes on Sundays. I'm dosing with Fluorish Iron, 20 ml (two capfuls from the large bottle) on Sundays and Wednesdays. 

For Trace, I switched to CSM-B (mixed 1 oz in 500 cc of Distilled water) I dose 3.5 cc of that solution every other day. I did install a UV sterlizer 4 weeks ago, but that was well after all these problems atarted and before I switched from the Aquarium Landscapes trace to Plantex CSM-B (to try and eliminate micros from the equation)

The tank has been set up for 4 months, and the problem has been the same, plus or minus algae

Other variables: My lighting is 5 wpg with CF. My substrate is bottom 1/3 - laterite, top 2/3 gravel. Pressurized CO2 and I even have heating cables in place.

I look at other pics of tanks and wonder why my plants arent looking that good... I've NEVER had any luck with red plants at all... the telenthera is hanging in there, but hasnt grown any taller than when I got it... just gotten bushier.
I've never even had luck with the "easy" plants like scarlet hygro, H. polysperma, R. Indica... even my crypts dont look that healthy.. the lutea and wendti both have a streaked appearance.

Thanks Roger... this is baffling the heck out of me... I'm beginning to think that I'll never have any luck with my tapwater..but the worst part is not knowing why!

Gilly


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

Gilly,

A lot of the plants you are having problems with are difficult plants that lots of people have problems with. A few (like H. polysperma) aren't usually very picky about growing conditions. C. lutea and C. wendtii often have streaks on their leaves. I'm not sure that is a problem.

You need to be able to grow H. polysperma before you get concerned about growing E. stellata. What symptoms does the H. polysperma show?

I imagine you've been told this before and it's old news, but 5 wpg is *way* more light than you need on a 75 gallon tank. I expect you will find problems far easier to deal with if you first back off on the lighting.


Roger Miller


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## gmaniac (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi

The slippery slope is hard to avoid 

Yes... I am definately in agreement for taking baby steps (polysperma before indica,macandra or stellata) to a identify a problem. 
Having been away from the hobby for 8 years, I was very eagar to get into the aquatic gardening and especially getting some of the more rare plants to grow and propagate. Back then I was doing fine. Now, I find that I am spending good money after bad and throwing technology to solve these problems. That is certainly a vicious cycle. 
Obviously, the tapwater I use now is different than 8 years ago and isn't conducive to lush growth, "out of the box". Thus, the need to optimize with nutrient additives (PMDD)

Yes, my lighting is probably to high (65 W CF x 6) for this tank, but given the high demand plants, CO2, and dosing schedule, I was willing to put up with constant trimming to get some great growth and color. 

I have come to realize that high lighting obviously increases nutrient demand and can throw things out of balance, especially if a deficiency is suspected. I'll cut off two tubes and see if that helps things.

I also find myself wanting to do a 100% water change and start over with a new dosing schedule and get better Nitrate, Phosphate tests (I have Seachem now, and think the are reliable). Alas, this will lead down the road to more "work" and perhaps more indecision. I dont want to test Fe and Ca.. , I really dont.
I think I have tried "resetting" several times in the past 2-3 months

just ranting a little bit, typing this out has been therapeutic 

thanks

Gilly


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## Roger Miller (Jun 19, 2004)

> quote:
> 
> Yes... I am definately in agreement for taking baby steps (polysperma before indica,macandra or stellata) to a identify a problem.


R. "indica" (actually rotundifolia) should be about as easy as H. polysperma.



> quote:
> 
> Having been away from the hobby for 8 years, I was very eagar to get into the aquatic gardening and especially getting some of the more rare plants to grow and propagate.


You came "loaded for bear" -- as the old saying goes -- but growing nice plants isn't really that hard.



> quote:
> 
> Back then I was doing fine. Now, I find that I am spending good money after bad and throwing technology to solve these problems. That is certainly a vicious cycle.


That is a nasty trend. I wonder if you might have been barking up the wrong tree all along.



> quote:
> 
> Obviously, the tapwater I use now is different than 8 years ago and isn't conducive to lush growth, "out of the box". Thus, the need to optimize with nutrient additives (PMDD)


Most of us do add something for good growth.

I'm not sure your emphasis on the quality of your tap water is all that warranted. Plants aren't as sensitive to water parameters as some people seem to think they are. The only indication you've given me so far that there may be something odd with your tap water is that the KH is real low while the GH is moderate. If you can get a more complete analysis of your water supply (usually available from the water utility) then we might get a better handle on problems that could come with your tap water.



> quote:
> 
> Yes, my lighting is probably to high (65 W CF x 6) for this tank, but given the high demand plants, CO2, and dosing schedule, I was willing to put up with constant trimming to get some great growth and color.
> 
> I have come to realize that high lighting obviously increases nutrient demand and can throw things out of balance, especially if a deficiency is suspected. I'll cut off two tubes and see if that helps things.


Even with two lamps turned off you will have pretty high light -- probably high enough to get good growth and good color out of the plants you want to grow. Your results will vary a bit with which lamps you are using.

Incidentally, maximizing your lighting isn't the best way to get the best colors out of your plants. I think crypts in general have more pleasing colors under low light. For other plants under higher light you have to keep your fertilizer doses ahead of plant demands or the colors get light. Plants develop their best colors when they have the right balance of light and nutrients; overloading things with very bright light just makes it difficult to find that healthy balance.



> quote:
> 
> I also find myself wanting to do a 100% water change and start over with a new dosing schedule and get better Nitrate, Phosphate tests (I have Seachem now, and think the are reliable). Alas, this will lead down the road to more "work" and perhaps more indecision. I dont want to test Fe and Ca.. , I really dont.


You shouldn't have to test for iron and a calcium test is only needed if your water supply is very unusual. If you want a better nitrate or phosphate test then I can only recommend that you spring for a good Hach or LaMotte kit. The confidence that a good kit gives you may be worth the extra cost.

You said earlier that your macro levels are fine. What do you mean by "fine?"



> quote:
> 
> I think I have tried "resetting" several times in the past 2-3 months


With the bright light and the repeated "resetting" I'm surprised you don't have more algae problems.

I can't solve your plant's problems, but after you cut down your lighting I do suggest a few other things.

First, find out what's in your water. The best way to get that information is to call your water utility. A "consumer confidence report" might help, but it isn't really what you're looking for. You need a complete water analysis -- the more complete, the better. Sometimes there are state agencies that will hand out that information. It's often even available on line. You can PM me with your location and/or the name of your water utility and I might be able to help.

Second, concentrate on the easier plants first. You don't need to worry about growing E. stellata yet. Make sure that the easier plants are growing and worry about their appearance later. It might turn out that some of the features you're concerned about (streaks on the crypts, for instance) are things that you don't need to worry over.

Third, be patient. Stop "resetting" your tank, go to a conservative, regular maintenance and fertilizing routine and let your tank fall into observable patterns.

Once you get a routine working that grows "easy" plants well then you can start adding more difficult plants and working out their problems as they come along.

Roger Miller


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## Nillo (Jun 11, 2005)

I think we may have missed something here. I went back and looked to see what your substrate is. Washed gravel and laterite eh? I have never had that much success with washed gravel and laterite. I know there are others that have done well, but it never worked out that well for me. Neither did substrate heating cables. Actually, mine worked for a while and then just quit. So I unplugged them and never looked back.

When I switched from plain gravel to slightly soil based I found it made a big difference. I started with a clay, sand and peat mixture (which is basically soil (clay,sand,loam))topped with coarse washed sand. I have found that washing the sand is very very helpful. Having a substrate with macro/micro nutrients seems to be advantageous. It also helps with algae to have the nutrients sequestered in the substrate.


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## darren_in_the_marsh (May 4, 2005)

Gilly,

You have described a similar pattern I am seeing in my tank, and that is the death of older leaves; a problem Ca and Mg have not fixed entirely, but have helped. There is clearly something else going on in terms of nutrients, and i think is more a balance/ratio thing than deficiency.

I have learned the hard way that 'more is not better' in fact, my tank came back some when i stopped everything - CO2 and nuts.

Its time to experiment! If your tank is bad, it cant get worse, and all you will harm is about $20 in plants.

What I did to help: stopped all nuts and co2 for several weeks and maintained frequent water changes to return the water back to just tap. Also, turned back my timer to 9 hours and slowly increaded co2(pH), GH, and KH to desired levels and achieved significant success with simple plants (hygrophilia, ludwigia, anubias).

Of course, now I am stuck. Increased NO3 (nothing happened), and adding plantex actually slowed the plant growth! I am going to switch to Flourish and see what happens, then equilibrium to reconstitute water changes, but talk about down to my last straw, I am thinking about changing fish food.

Darren



> quote:
> 
> Fish are seemingly fine, plants are pearling, and yet still no really healthy growth. I'm so bummed .... .. .most plants started out doing OK, then the tops burn out (became a nub and stopped propagating) and then the bottom leaves started getting darker green/brown in color and are accumulating spot algae and appear to be dying off. I just dont get it.


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## gmaniac (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks all for your help amd advice!!


Roger, I'll PM you with my contact info to see if we can obtain a local water report. I resisted pursuing that but it may be alot easier to obtain than I thought. I really appreciate all your advice

I've been out of town for the last 4 days at Plantfest in Florida, the lighting was cut back before, and I havent been able to tinker with that tank since I left home (which is probably a good thing) . I cant wait to get back and see if there has been any noticible change in growth

Gilly


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