# Fish selection for an el natural community tank



## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

Hi everybody,

I need your help and experience selecting fish for my new el natural. I want a community tank with about 3 species of fish. I have the idea of getting a lot (more then 10-15) of one species of smaller active fish, then I would love to get me around 6 cory cats (preferably corydoras panda, they are so cute) and then a few (2-4) of larger show case fish with lots of character.

Let me tell you about my tank. It's a 160l/40gallon tank (see this thread for some pictures) el natural and heavily planted with hard water (11dGH). I've set it up last weekend and even tough Diana Walstad suggest putting in fish from the start I would like to wait at least 2 weeks to see how it goes because I have no other place to put the fish in case something goes wrong.

I already have a 30l shrimp tank for one year, so I have experience with keeping a successful planted tank. I never had fish, that's why I'm coming here with all my questions because I don't want to buy the wrong fish and risk regretting my purchase.

These are the fish I have in mind but I still have a lot doubts about their compatibility with the tank and each other.

*Small fish*
Endlers: this would be the big bunch of life in the tank. I really like the look of them, not to fancy, but with some colour. I also like that they are easy to breed, but that's also my biggest doubt. I'm afraid that the population would get out of control and that they will take over the entire tank. Is there a way of keeping them in check? In the perfect world I would have a bigger fish that eats a little of the fry just enough to keep to adult population at a healthy size. I could also keep some of the young in a breeder net to grow them to an uneatable size in case all the fry gets eaten. I know not everyone is going to like this idea, but what else can you do when you have to many fish?

Celestial Pearl Danio: Also like the look of them. A disadvantage (maybe this is also an advantage?) might be that they don't breed a easily as the endlers.

*Corydoras*
Basically I really want corydoras panda :-D

*Showcase fish*
This is were I think the choice really gets difficult. Mainly because most of the nice fish are aggressive and/or hard to keep. I would like some Cichlid or Gourami fish.

Chiclids: I like the look of both the Cockatoo Cichlid and the Bolivian Ram. I've read that they can become aggressive and are not really compatible with planted tanks. Is this true? I think you can't keep that many of them maybe 1 or 2 pair or a male with several females.

Gouramis: Pearl Gouramis or three spot gouramis have my interest here. I think they look nice, but less nice then the cichlids. I like that they bubble nest and are less aggressive then the cichlids. Maybe about 4 of this species?

I probably forgot a lot of really cool fish in my list and I'm open to any suggestion. The 14th of November there is a fish club event were local hobbyist breeders come to sell there fish, this is a great opportunity and I really want to have an idea of the fish I want by that time.


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## potatoes (Jun 25, 2010)

Pearl gouramis are smaller and less agressive then 3 spots, but there will deffinatly be territorial issues if you have 4 males. I would only get one male gourami.


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## Michael (Jul 20, 2010)

For a showcase fish, I think all that you have mentioned would do well, except the three spot gouramis. They will become too large and aggressive for the 40 gallon.

I agree with Potatoes that there is room for only male pearl gourami.

You might also look at Apistogramma borellii, a relative of the cockatoo chiclid. They are smaller than cockatoos, and even more adaptable to hard water. You might be able to keep 2 pairs in your 40 gallon, or one male and three or four females.

Any of the dwarf chiclids would eat enough Ender's fry to keep the population in check.

Your tank is looking great!

--Michael


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## mthom211 (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm doing almost the same set up as you but with betas instead of gouramis. If your endler population gets out of control just sell them to someone the cheapest you usually get endlers in Australia if there really tiny but usually $10+ or feed the babies to something.,


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

Pearl gourami would make a nice addition to the tank. 1 male with 3 females works well. Pearl's grow to about 4 inches, are very peaceful with other fish, are very hardy, and work well in a planted tank. The male's color and finnage can become very impressive.

Dwarf cichlids work very well in a planted tank. Both the cockatoo cichlid (apistogramma cacatuoides)or the bolivian ram would be a good choice. These cichlids are usually not aggressive except toward other cichlids, especially their own kind. A ratio of 1 male to 1 or more females should work well for the apistos. Two males in a 40 gallon tank will likely fight with one dominating until the other dies. The bolivian rams may be best at 1 male and 1 female, but multiple females can sometimes work as well. I would choose one species of cichlid in a 40 gallon. In a very heavily planted tank with many hiding spots you may be able to get 1 pair each of 2 species, but 1 species will result in a more peaceful tank.

The cockatoo cichlid, in my experience, is the most adaptable and easiest to keep apisto. Other relatively easy to keep dwarf cichlids include:
apisto alacrina
apisto borellii
pelvicachromis pulcher (common krib)
pelvicachromis taeniatus
nannacara anomala
keyhole cichlids (peaceful, hardy, but not very colorful)
curviceps cichlids

All cichlids will be somewhat aggressive when breeding or defending young, but these (with the possible exception of the pelvicachromis) will usually just defend their young and not kill or seriously harm other fish in the tank.


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks for the good suggestions everyone. At the moment I'm leaning more towards the Pearl Gourami. Especially because the seem more peaceful grow quit big and can keep about 4 (even if it is several females and one male).

I'm also looking into the Apistogramma borellii it's a little smaller but also very cool looking.

How many bettas could I keep in my tank? Also one male and 3-4 females or is that pushing it with this fish? If it's possible it's also a great candidate.

My tank is an open top tank, so I hope non of them are jumpers.

I'm still thinking about the Cockatoo, I think I have to do some more research on all the fish you guys suggested. Instead of making the choice easier it's actually getting harder :-D

I'm definitely getting me some endlers. I don't have any ammonia in my tank so I think it's cycled. It's pretty amazing this el natural. Maybe I can get me some endlers by the end of next week?


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

the prettiest fish i have is my nanacara anomala! is so colorful, active, not agresive (except towards a second male im taking out soon) and yeah, is pretty-the picture really does not do justice! 

why not a trio of angels? altums, or p. scalare (the wild tipe, regular gray with stripes are awesome imo) and with all the fish you are already getting it would stay limited to fish from the americas, except the endlers i think.. well, post some pics, soon!! lol, have fin, i mean fun!


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## Trower (Jan 4, 2008)

ddavila06 said:


> the prettiest fish i have is my nanacara anomala! is so colorful, active, not agresive (except towards a second male im taking out soon) and yeah, is pretty-the picture really does not do justice!
> 
> why not a trio of angels? altums, or p. scalare (the wild tipe, regular gray with stripes are awesome imo) and with all the fish you are already getting it would stay limited to fish from the americas, except the endlers i think.. well, post some pics, soon!! lol, have fin, i mean fun!


The Nanacara Anomala is a very nice fish! I really think they are prettier in person as well. Here is another photo of one I found on the net, this one looks more like the ones I've seen. 









I also would also agree on the recommendation of Angels, they really have a personality and live quite a while. Very fun to watch and interact with.

Betta's IMO are not the best big tank fish, or even really community fish either. Some wild type mouth brooders are fun in a big community tank, but are kinda pricey. Apisoto's are better community fish:yes:

Good luck with your tank and make sure and show us some pictures!


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

Ok, so bettas are out.

I like angels, but I always thought they can get 25cm heigh. This would mean that in my tank with a 30cm heigh water column they would have only 5cm vertical clearance. Tanking into account that every inch will be planted they will have no room to swim up and down. Can someone confirm this? If I can keep angles I think we have a winner. But I'm afraid it's going to be impossible.

Now I'm down to the following fish (this is no definitive list):

Pearl Gourami
Nanacara Anomala
Cockatoo Cichlid

The choice is going to depend on:

How much I can keep in my tank (the more the better).
How aggressive they are towards each other and other fish.
How interesting they are going to be to watch.

Not an easy choice. I'm still going to look around the internet to see what else I can find.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

When the angels get big enough they will probably eat the endlers. Also angels will get aggressive with each other when they get older. A group of 6 is recommended to spread out the aggression unless you have a mated pair. 6 angels in a 40 gallon will take up much of the available tank space/capacity. I've also found angels to be quite fragile lately. Much more so than my collection of dwarf cichlids.

Pearl Gourami 
Nanacara Anomala 
Cockatoo Cichlid

Are all good choices. The Pearls are the easiest to keep. If you decide on the nannacara I would only get 1 male and 1 female. If they spawn (and they spawn readily), the male will need a place to hide because the female gets very aggressive toward other nannacara (but not other fish). The cockatoo is a great fish and would be my first choice of your final 3, beautiful color, interesting behavior. I would go for a pair or 1 male and 2 females in a 40 gallon. But cockatoo cichlids are more difficult to keep. The nannacara and pearls will allow for more margin of error.

I've actually kept nannacara and cockatoos in a 75 gallon and they mostly stayed out of each others way. A 40 gallon might be too little room for both types of cichlid. Either cichlid could definitely coexist with Pearl gouramis (they ignored each other in my 75), but keep in mind the total bioload in the aquarium.


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

Trower said:


> The Nanacara Anomala is a very nice fish! I really think they are prettier in person as well. Here is another photo of one I found on the net, this one looks more like the ones I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh man, that thing looks like is running on esteroids!! my guy looks tiny!! :shock: have fun choosing, looking forward to the next updatev


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the shared experience :hail:

Which fish would eat the most fry, a gourami or a cichilid? I'm really afraid of getting to many endlers. I'd rather want that some get eaten than that I would have no where to get rid of them and I'm forced to euthanise some.

At the moment I'm leaning more towards the pearl gourami because it's easier to keep.

Are gourami or cichlid fish jumpers? Because the tank is an open top.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I believe both gourami and cichlid can jump. However, I have kept three spot gourami, honey gourami, apistogramma and kribensis in opened top tanks in the past without any issue. The don't jump for no reason - they jump due to shock, panic or trying to escape from being caught. Their jumping habit is not as bad as swordtails or hatchet.


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

I think I'm going to get 1male and 2female gourami, if I can get them like that, because my LFS only sells them in pairs. We'll have to see how they sell them at the hobby breeders fare.

I'm also doubting about the corydoras panda. I'm thinking about getting ottos instead. Do they do a better job at keeping the tank clean than the cory cats or is there no difference?

I went to my LFS yesterday to get some endlers. I tough they had them, because I hade seem them before. It turned out they were snake skin endlers and a little bit to fancy for my taste. So I bought 3 pair of wild guppies, they were labelled as Caracas Guppies. I like the look of them, not to fancy, but with a touch of colour.

It wasn't easy to take pictures of them, because they never sit still, but I made a couple good ones.


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## Gordonrichards (Apr 28, 2009)

don't get more then 2 pairs of cichlid for your 40 gallon tank, each will stake out half the tank as their territory and remember to give them hiding spots.


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Cory will eat leftover food that sinks to the bottom of the tank. Otto eats algae (not all type of algae though). They serve different purpose. So, I can't compare them because it's like comparing a dog and a cat.


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

Ok, so I made my mind and I'm going for a the Cockatoo Cichlid.



Gordonrichards said:


> don't get more then 2 pairs of cichlid for your 40 gallon tank, each will stake out half the tank as their territory and remember to give them hiding spots.


You think I can keep 2 pairs in a 40gallon? I was thinking about getting one male and 2 females.



totziens said:


> Cory will eat leftover food that sinks to the bottom of the tank. Otto eats algae (not all type of algae though). They serve different purpose. So, I can't compare them because it's like comparing a dog and a cat.


Ok, so then it's corry cats I want. I have snails to do the algae eating 

I was sure that I was going to get corydoras panda, but now I'm doubting between corydoras sterbai and panda. The corydoras panda have the advantage of being cute, but the disadvantage of looking a bit unnatural. The sterba's have the advantage of being natural looking, but the disadvantage of being a bit bigger.

The decision will probably depend on the bioload of having these extra inches of fish and how I can picture the way they would look in my tank.


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## hoplo (May 14, 2007)

You could consider Dwarf Gouramis as well. 
The snails might not be able to keep up with the algae cleaning so some otos or an oddball like a royal whiptail would do great as they don't hide.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

> You think I can keep 2 pairs in a 40gallon? I was thinking about getting one male and 2 females.


I would get 1 male and 2 females apisto cacatuoides. One male will likely dominate another male in a tank that small and the weaker male will probably die or always be in hiding. If the tank is really heavily planted with many hiding spots, 2 pairs could work in theory. But one male courting 2 females is a happier tank than 2 males constantly fighting (in my opinion).

The way you could try to make it work is if you have a spare tank to move one of the males to if they can't live together. Otherwise I wouldn't try 2 pair.


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

Great! cacatu cichlids are so pretty!! i purchased a group of 6 long ago and to my bad luck they were all females  

i think you worry too much, i can say that the tank can easily hold 6 sterbys and i have some in my tank and they are not all that big. the pandas died on me out of nothing so ime i concider them more delicate.

the ottos are awesome at cleaning some algeas and dirt/debries and they are tiny! so another 6 won't hurt.

then you have the trio of cacatoo's 

and the darter/food for the cacatoo's - lol, i coulnd't help it but some of the fry might end up being sushi  

so thats not a tooooon of fish, but if you want them all add them slowly! give your tank some time to mature and beneficial stuffs to grow properly.


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

Hi Jeremy and Damian,

Ok, so I will get 1 male and 2 females.

Your right, the fish load won't be very high and I could probably add some otto's without a problem. After doing a quick calculation in my head I found I will even have plenty of room left for when the baby guppies start arriving.

I was a bit afraid of adding all the fish at once, but the plan was to get them all at once for cheap at a fish breeders convention next week. To prepare the bacteria I'm greatly over feeding my guppies.

Otto's don't look that expensive, so I think I'll get six tomorrow. I have ton of brown algae and I read they eat this, so they will have there mouths busy. And hopefully the glass will be nice and clear when I get the other fish.

I'm counting on the cichlids to eat some guppy fry, because I hear that the population can explode. And live food is good right ;-)

Thanks for the tips, I will post an update once I have the ottos.


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## geeks_15 (Dec 9, 2006)

You might want to do a partial water change the day before you add the new fish. I often do.


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

I got the oto's yesterday, I bought 6, they were only 1.99€ per piece, so not expensive at all. They are really great, always sucking the sides of the tank and the leaves of the plants. I also got 6 ammano shrimp for 1.5€ per piece.

The only downside is that one died only a couple of hours after adding them to my tank :-( Maybe something was wrong with him? All the other are doing really well, always eating and pooping, I've read that's what oto's are supposed to do.

I like the way they swim in tiny groups.

Here are some pictures, sorry for the dirty glass ;-)


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

Nice ottos. Looks like they're having fun. They may become slightly lazy when they grow older but won't end up useless like SAEs (I have been adopting huge SAEs from friends who complain).


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm hoping no more will die, today the remaining 5 are still doing really well. Always eating and then laying around digesting. I've read they should have fat bellies and that's the case, they had flat bellies when I got them.

I there any way to keep them active? Maybe by not spoiling them with too much good food, but by letting them search for there own every once in a while?


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## totziens (Jun 28, 2008)

I usually don't feed ottos because in my planted tanks, algae comes naturally. It's quite common that the ottos are not well fed at the LFS. That's the reason, ottos should be purchased only when you have established tank.

If you're running out of algae, you can check out Hikari's algae wafers.


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## Thorald (Aug 8, 2009)

I already have some algae in my tank for the ottos, but not much it's mostly diatomes and green spot algae. I sometimes throw in some sinking tablets and it looks like they are eating them.

I got my new fish on sunday, at the "day of the breeding central" (that's what the local fish keepers club calls it). It's a fair were hobby, commercial and semi-commercial breeders come to sell or swap plants, fish and inverts.

There was a lot of choice and I really felt like a kid in a candy shop. Here's the fis I got:

7 juvenile Corydoras Panda
2 pair of Cockatoo Cichilds "triple red" (I know I was only going to get 1 male and 2 females, but they only came in pairs)
10 Wild guppies + lots of free babies
5 nerite snails

I also bought some plants, but I'm not going to list them here, that's stuff for the journal.

First the corries, they are still really young, the smallest are half an inch and the biggest an inch and a half. They are healthy and none of them have died, even though I've heard they can be very sensitive. They are really cute now because they are so small, but I never would have thought they are so active. The panda corries in the LFS were always swimming around peacefully and laying on the ground. These little guys are even more active than the guppies. They are almost constantly swimming up and down the tank. There are some rare moments that they calm down and lay down for a minute or two, I hope that they will calm down once they get older because the guppies are already bringing more than enough spice in the tank.

I got the wild guppies from a guy who said he caught them himself years ago and bread them form those wild caught ones. I don't think they are pure wild guppies because some have a snake skin pattern at their tails (but I'm no guppy expert, so maybe some wild guppies have this). When I got home I was a bit disappointed about these guys, because they didn't show that much colour and I was afraid they would ruin the looks of the other guppies I have once they started to cross. But now I'm really happy with them, they started showing much more colour after some time in the tank. I think they were stressed and therefore looking pale.

The nerite snails are great, they do a great job a cleaning the algae from the glass and I think it will take them a week or 2 before all the glass is crystal clear. I was really lucky to find these, because you rarely see them in a LFS here, I can't even find them on the internet (well, I can find them, but not when they have to be shipped to Belgium). The guy I bought them from gave me his e-mail address and he ships them if I need more :-D He said he imports them directly from Malaysia.

And last, but not least the cockatoo cichlids. I was looking for them like a crazy person but couldn't find them, but after a while I came across this big stand that sold lot's of cichlids at really low prices. All the cichlids were packed in bags in pairs and it wasn't possible to get and extra female. So I first bought one pair and was really happy with them, but then, I didn't know what came into me, on impulse I bought a second pair. Once I came back home I acclimatized all the fish and released them. It looked like they all were doing really well, one male was swimming in the open, sometime alone and sometimes with a female. The other male was more timid, but he showed him self I was content and a couple of hours later I went to bed.

The next day I noticed something, I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw it there was something attached to the back of the timid male. I looked it up on the net and it turned out to be an anchor worm. I was really concerned about what to do, so I researched it and called my vet. My vet redirected me to another vet how specialises in fish, so I called him and he suggested the same thing as I read on the internet (the thing I didn't want to do), he told me to catch the fish and pull it out. So collected all my courage and caught him (not easy in a planted tank) I kept him in the net and as fast as I could pulled the disgusting parasite out of his body. When I put him back in the tank he was doing not well from the start, he wasn't moving and kept floating to the surface. Today after work I found him dead between the plants. I think he was already weak because of the anchor worm and the stress became to much for him. I feel really bad about it, it's my feeling that when you buy an animal you must take responsibility and take care of it. But pulling the anchor worm was the only thing I could do to prevent the other fish from getting infected. It's a shame he died.

I hope that none of the other fish have the infection and will be with me for a long time. The other cichilds are looking good, the male comes to the front of the tank, but stays at the bottom. It looks like he's hunting, he floats in one place pointing down a bit and then strikes, but I don't think he's actually catching something. The females also come out, but less than the male. Sometimes the male and a female swim together. They like to hang out in the holes in the driftwood and under the leaves of the plants. Maybe I will put in some extra cave like structures.

I'm going to take pictures of the fish and tank tomorrow, but I'm going to post them in my journal. I will post an update here once they are up.

Update: I posted pictures in my journal.


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