# What's a good PH controller that I could use?



## caymandiver75 (Sep 7, 2006)

I have a 55 gallon planted aquarium that runs the following equipment (see signature) and I'd like to get my PH stabilized. I'm interested in getting some sort of PH controller, but have no clue where to start. As of now, my tank schedule is:

1. 1-10pm lights are on
2. 7am - 9pm CO2 is on (on average my CO2 is about 27ppm by 7pm)

The ph seems to vary from 7.2 to 6.8 and I'd like to get that stabilized.


Thanks in advance!


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

The Milwaukee SMS122 is great. The company has really good customer service, you ever have problems with the controller and they replace it.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

the milwaukee sm122 is the only controller I have used and its great. I own 3 of them. The oldest one I have(2 years old) just need a new probe, but thats about the average so I heard.


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## werner (Jul 6, 2006)

I have a Pinpoint controller from American Marine- works well, no problems.


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## John N. (Dec 11, 2005)

I believe Epicfish still has a Milwaukee pH Controller for sale. You may want to check out this for sale thread if you decide to go for a pH Controller.

-John N.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I use all Milwaukee's too and have never had any problems over the years.


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## Left C (Jun 14, 2005)

I have 2 Milwaukees with no problems.

Someone once told me that they prefer the Pinpoint controller because it can control two devices with upper and lower pH points. It can cut the CO2 on and off as needed. It can also control an air pump to drive off excess CO2 in case something goes wrong. It's sort of like a safety device, so to speak.


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## Craig Tarvin (Jul 26, 2005)

I think that the best pH controller is none 

They definitely aren't necessary, and going by the manufacturer's stats, I doubt that it would keep your pH more stable.

Your pH only varies by .4, and Milwaukee says that the accuracy of the SMS122 is +/- .2 pH.

It seems like using one of these would lead to the pH actually being more unstable, since instead of gradually increasing and decreasing, it keeps "ping ponging" back and forth within it's accuracy range.

But... I've never had one, so I'm not speaking out of experience. It was always enough for me that they weren't necessary.

Milwaukee Instruments

SMS122

Specifications: Range 0.0 - 14.0 pH 
Resolution 0.1 pH 
Accuracy ± 0.2 pH 
Calibration Manual 2 points 
Set point range 5.5 - 9.5 pH 
Alarm Active when reading is higher than
set point 
Dosing contact 1 power plug for CO2 dosing 
Power supply 12 VDC adapter 
Electrode MA911B/2 
Dimensions 80 x 145 x 35 mm


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I have to disagree that they aren't necessary in any case. 
Without using one with my high KH, my pH would go from 7.0 (+/-) with lights on to 8.2 with the lights off. 
With the controllers, my pH stays stable at about 7.0 (or whatever I set them at), and without the pH swings by a big range.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

What's so terrible about large ph swings?

I think it's a myth that rapid change in ph is bad for fish.

In nature the ph can swing wildly as fish move from different parts of the lake or river, when they near large dead matter or when runoff from mountains meets a stream.

I had a KH of 18 and never used a pH controller. Fish were fine and pH swung more than a point every day.

Besides, CO2 is going to lower pH by the same amount no matter what your KH is so when it goes off at night and comes back on in the morning the pH will still swing by a point or more if you are hitting 30ppm.

I agree w/ Craig. Ph controller is a waste of money.


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

pH Controller can give us many essential information. 
1. It tells you at what rate the tank CO2 is loss to the environment.
2. It tells you how surface aggitation affect CO2 concentration - that you should not use hang-over filter. 
3. It tells you the efficiency of your CO2 reactor - how fast and how many % is dissolve. 
4. It tells you which pH invites which algae and which algae doesn't border with pH.
5. It tells you which optimal pH reading that certain red plant will thrive. 
6. It tells you there could be carbonate source in your tank that it is taking long time to bring the pH down. 
7. It tells you your KH buffer is too low, CO2 lost easily - the pH drop too quickly.
8. It makes sure your tank pH stay low so that trace element can be absorbed effectively.
9. It protects your fish from CO2 overdosing.
10. It removes CO2/pH from the photosynthesis equation. So you can play god on controlling other factors. 

Gimme other 10 reasons NOT to have pH controller.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

yxberia said:


> pH Controller can give us many essential information.
> 1. It tells you at what rate the tank CO2 is loss to the environment.
> 2. It tells you how surface aggitation affect CO2 concentration - that you should not use hang-over filter.
> 3. It tells you the efficiency of your CO2 reactor - how fast and how many % is dissolve.
> ...


You can learn all of that with a plain old calibrated ph meter, and you don't run the risk of killing all your fish which has happened more than once to people using ph controllers.

It most certainly does NOT protect fish from CO2 overdosing, and in fact has been the CAUSE of CO2 overdosing. Your item #6 explains why. Search the Krib for horror stories of people using ph controllers. They had a carbonate source leaching into their water, raising the KH but the ph Controller was fixed on a certain pH so it pumped more and more CO2 into the water, killing all the fish. The only way to prevent a situation like this would be to be lucky enough to be near the tank at the time to see the diffuser spewing CO2. If you're at work you'll come home to a tank full of dead fish.

And what's this about KH getting to low? CO2 lost easily? I think it's been pretty well established that a KH of 0 is just fine and I know of at least a few experienced aquarists on this forum who use KH of 0.

No offense but those are some pretty bad reasons to use a very expensive, totally unnecessary piece of hardware.

I've never used one, and I never will. My plants thrive and my tank is free of algae. They are not necessary at all and that's the best reason of all.

The only real reason I can imagine to use a ph controller would be to save CO2 and even that's a poor reason because CO2 costs next to nothing and a simple solenoid for lights out will make a 5 lb. tank last 6 months.


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## IUnknown (Feb 24, 2004)

> I've never used one, and I never will.


Maybe it is like a cell phone, once you get used to one, it is hard to get rid of it. I think it is a luxury item, and someone new to the hobby probably would be better off without one. I would not setup a tank without one. Co2 is the most important part of a tank. I like being able to open my cabinet and seeing where my Co2 is at. You save Co2 from the solenoid throttling on and off all day. And there should be no fish deaths if you set it up right. Your bubble rate should be the same as when the meter is not hooked up, so if the controller fails, the ppm doesn't get out of control.


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

> I've never used one, and I never will.


No offence taken. This is a forum anyway 
I agree with IUnknown. Once you start to "see" how CO2 changes your tank, you will want it in your next tank. I have my 2nd 4 feet tank with pH controller, too. Simply because it allows me to see things differently and things do get more manageable.

I totally disagree it is luxurious to own one. 
pH controller are becoming cheaper these days. Of cause it will be expensive if you are buying branded product (Sera/JBL/Dennerle/PinPoint). I believe if you flip thru the yellow pages, you will find more affordable versions. Many industries use the same device.

I bought mine (Taiwan made), for MYR 600 = ~USD 158, inclusive a probe which last for 2 years. Probe replacement will cost MYR200 or USD 53...... every 2 years.

Let's not see this from "pH controller is always luxurious" perspective. 
See it as a valuable tool that provides 24x7 of countless but useful information.


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## Craig Tarvin (Jul 26, 2005)

I don't think we're saying that it's "luxurious" to have a pH controller, just unnecessary. I can afford heater cables too, but I don't use them for the same reason  The contest winning aquascapes don't seem to have pH controllers.

What I think it comes down to is that there those that like to test a lot, have a lot of equipment, etc, and "controlling" parameters is part of the hobby for them. Then there are those that like simplicity and rely on observation to know when things are out of order. 

This thread was started because caymandiver75 said that his pH varies between 6.8 to 7.2 and he wants to stabilize it. I don't think that an SMS122 will benefit him, because, if I read Milwaukee's stats right, if he sets it at at 7, the pH will still vary between 6.8 to 7.2, right? Not only will it still vary by .4, but it will probably "bounce" up and down between that range, essentially varying more than if the controller wasn't used at all. How/what does that help?


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

Craig Tarvin said:


> This thread was started because caymandiver75 said that his pH varies between 6.8 to 7.2 and *he wants to stabilize it*. I don't think that an SMS122 will benefit him, because, if I read Milwaukee's stats right,* if he sets it at at 7, the pH will still vary between 6.8 to 7.2, right? *Not only will it still vary by .4, but it will probably "bounce" up and down between that range, essentially varying more than if the controller wasn't used at all. How/what does that help?


*he wants to stabilize it* 
- Yes, I understand.

* if he sets it at at 7, the pH will still vary between 6.8 to 7.2, right? *
- I doubt Milwaukee SMS122 will only trigger when there is a relative difference of ± 0.5 pH, this is quite a huge swing! I think SMS122 will not be useful for any application if this is true ?

I believe there is a confusion about tolerance and accuracy here.
My pH Controller has 0.01 resolution. It has tolerance of ± 0.05 meaning it will trigger when there is ± 0.05 pH difference, a factory preset. This has nothing to do with accuracy.

Say I set my desired reading to pH 6.80:
- it will turn off the CO2 when condition reaches pH 6.75
- it will turn on the CO2 back on when condition reaches pH 6.85
I have a modified turbo reactor (I hv posted in APC not long ago) which can quickly dissolve CO2. So, within 10 minutes, pH will start to drop downwards to pH 6.80. Thus, my tank pH is always maintained at pH 6.75 - pH 6.85.

Of course, to have all these working: 
- I have to preset an optimal value for CO2 bubble count. 
- I have to match the reactor pump flow-rate.

So can pH controller helps stabilize *caymandiver75 * tank pH ? 
Yes, of course. Why would they sell this device in the 1st place if it cannot control your pH?


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

yxberia said:


> ...
> 
> Of course, to have all these working:
> - I have to preset an optimal value for CO2 bubble count.
> ...


I've had CO2 injected planted tanks both with and without controllers: both types of setups can give you nice healthy growth and beautiful tanks... it's just a question of approach. Believe me, you won't be able to to visually tell the difference between a well run/maintained planted tank with a controller and one without.

One additional thing to keep in mind with the controller is that you need to check your KH from time to time. The water utility here uses different source water depending on time of year/demand. So the tap water can suddenly go from 15KH to 6KH and vice versa... guess what that does to your CO2 levels in the water with the controller set to a certain pH? I learned this the hard way several years ago  .


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## Craig Tarvin (Jul 26, 2005)

yxberia said:


> Why would they sell this device in the 1st place if it cannot control your pH?


I think you are putting way too much trust in people that are motivated by profit, especially this snake oil-filled industry. 

The goal is to add carbon to your aquarium, not control the pH.

I just believe that if you have a pH swing of .4, not only is it not a problem, but a hobby grade controller will not nullify it.


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

JanS said:


> I have to disagree that they aren't necessary in any case.
> Without using one with my high KH, my pH would go from 7.0 (+/-) with lights on to 8.2 with the lights off.
> With the controllers, my pH stays stable at about 7.0 (or whatever I set them at), and without the pH swings by a big range.


Hasn't it been proven that co2 drivin pH swings do not affect fish. I too would not recomend using a pH controller. It does not work well esp when using aquasoil. It is never "needed" to maintain a tank. In some cases it may make things easier, in some other cases it may make things a lot harder (when using aquasoil). However, how hard is it to get the right bubble count and just set it and forget it. pH swings at night do not matter, how many times can this be said. I could easily afford a pH controller for all my tanks, but do not have any b/c I think it is useless. Jan what you are doing with your pH controller is probably worse for your fish than just letting the pH rise. You are subjecting your fish to 30+ppm of CO2 at all times. It would be better to give the fish a break at night with lower CO2 levels.


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

I don't see where wanting to stabilize pH with a CO2 controller is a good thing at all. When using CO2 the movements in pH are an indicator that CO2 is being added or lost. We want to add CO2 during the day and lose it at night, so a pH swing is normal.

Let's make two roughly accurate assumptions:
1. 30ppm CO2 is a valid target.
2. A pH drop of 1.0 is an indication that you've added 30ppm CO2.

If the normal pH of the water without CO2 is 7.6, where do you set the controller? If you set it to 6.6 then it will continue to add CO2 even at night when the plants are respirating and not producing oxygen. Why is that considered a good thing to accomplish?

The pH swing due to CO2 addition/loss is something that is not felt by the fish, so trying to stabilize it seems counterproductive to me.


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## caymandiver75 (Sep 7, 2006)

Wow never expected to get this much of a response, but after reading what you all have provided and seen on the net, I'm going to hold off on any ph controller. My tank is healthy and I'm not losing any fish to water issues, so I'll hold off and keep in mind that the fluctuation in ph is normal. My tap water has a ph of 7.8 and kh of 7 straight out of the faucet if this makes much of a difference.


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

Laith said:


> the tap water can suddenly go from 15KH to 6KH and vice versa... guess what that does to your CO2 levels in the water with the controller set to a certain pH? I learned this the hard way several years ago  .


Hi Laith,
If the KH swing is expected, we still need to handle water changes carefully with or without pH controller. The controller is not to be blamed in this case as manual injection will increase CO2 ppm,too.


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

yxberia said:


> Hi Laith,
> If the KH swing is expected, we still need to handle water changes carefully with or without pH controller. The controller is not to be blamed in this case as manual injection will increase CO2 ppm,too.


No it won't. How will a set bubble count increase CO2 ppm when there is a change in kH? That makes no sense.


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## banderbe (Nov 17, 2005)

ianiwane said:


> No it won't. How will a set bubble count increase CO2 ppm when there is a change in kH? That makes no sense.


There has been this myth that keeps popping up that KH determines how much CO2 one can keep in solution. Not sure where it comes from.


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## chiahead (Dec 18, 2004)

ok so your saying that a 1 bubble per second with a KH of 3 would yeild the same co2 content as the same setup with a kh of 12?


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

Off topic: Admin, please delete this post if it deemed inappropriate.

I hate to dig this up from thekrib or wiki. 

H2CO3 <----> H+ + HCO3-
High KH provide pH buffering and allow more CO2 to be contained. The more the carbonate, the higher the CO2 concentration will be. 
That is not a myth, a myth does not have an equation. I am sure people who own a pH controller can quickly testify this. 
Whenever I increase my KH, I can see the pH reading doesn't move up much after CO2 has been turn off. Compare to low KH system, pH reading goes down quicker and bumps up again few minutes later. 
Aquasoil or any other peat system that does not conform to pH/KH/CO2 relation shows different behavior and should be treated differently. How can i tell ?

If someone approach me with pH controller 5 years ago, I would question if it is just another cool gadgets/ornament. But now, when more and more people become knowlegable, people will want to testify if what they have "learned/heard" so far can be practical in their daily life (hobby). Furthermore, lab instrument is more accessible to consumer now. If someone tells me my house filter need changing, he will have to wait until my TDS meter justify his claim and save me unneccessary replacement.

They can claim this and that. Fact or myth, we can't tell. But now, we have the tool to justify all that.


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

chiahead said:


> ok so your saying that a 1 bubble per second with a KH of 3 would yeild the same co2 content as the same setup with a kh of 12?


Yes I am. And it does.


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

yxberia said:


> Off topic: Admin, please delete this post if it deemed inappropriate.
> 
> I hate to dig this up from thekrib or wiki.
> 
> ...


What you are saying is true, higher kH means a greater buffering system for CO2, so it can hold more CO2 (if you are injecting more Co2 it can hold more). However if we are injecting a set bps into the aquarium, it will lower pH equally based on CO2 concentration. If you look at a CO2 chart you will note that for any kH reading a CO2 concentration of 30 ppm with lower pH about 1. It does not matter if the kH is 1 or 10. If you have a set bubble count you will have the same concentration of CO2 in you water at any given kH. All you need to do is find the right bubble count and "set it and forget it." Think about it before you post again.


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## yxberia (Apr 19, 2005)

> Think about it before you post again.


I can never enjoy reading this from a senior.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

ianiwane said:


> ... If you look at a CO2 chart you will note that for any kH reading a CO2 concentration of 30 ppm with lower pH about 1. It does not matter if the kH is 1 or 10. If you have a set bubble count you will have the same concentration of CO2 in you water at any given kH. All you need to do is find the right bubble count and "set it and forget it." ...


Yes, I had a problem getting my head around this concept at the beginning too  .

Like I said previously, you can have a beautiful tank with and without a controller; I use both methods. You just need to know the limitations of each and adjust things accordingly. Remember the goal is to get carbon to your plants and both methods do so. I think the issue isn't about using a controller or not... the issue is that whatever method we use, we're still struggling to know whether we're putting enough CO2 in the water. Which is why I'm closely following Hoppy's experiment with the CO2 checker! 

By the way, one way of reducing CO2 injection at night with a pH controller is to plug the controller into a timer...


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## TWood (Dec 9, 2004)

Laith said:


> By the way, one way of reducing CO2 injection at night with a pH controller is to plug the controller into a timer...


LOL, let's make things even -more- unnecessarily complex!


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## Craig Tarvin (Jul 26, 2005)

TWood said:


> LOL, let's make things even -more- unnecessarily complex!


Haha. You can also implement a complicated system of pullies and levers, on a timer of course, to automatically raise the filter's output at night to offgas CO2.


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## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

ianiwane said:


> Think about it before you post again.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and just because yxberia isn't agreeing with everything you say, it doesn't mean they need to stifle their comments because it isn't what you believe is right.
There is more than one way to do everything, and even when I train people in at work I tell them "this is the way I do it, but if you have a different way you want to do it and achieve the same result, it's your option".



ianiwane said:


> Jan what you are doing with your pH controller is probably worse for your fish than just letting the pH rise. You are subjecting your fish to 30+ppm of CO2 at all times. It would be better to give the fish a break at night with lower CO2 levels.


I have to wonder exactly how you know that my C02 levels are 30+ ppm when I haven't stated what my KH is?
I keep my levels very fish friendly (which means perhaps a little lower than many here), but I don't care if it's night or day, I never have any problems with the fish gasping at the surface or being stressed in any other way like I've seen with some people who may or may not use a controller.
If I let the pH rise that much at night, it takes half the day the next day to bring the C02 levels back to the range I shoot for, so is that really benefiting the plants or anything else in the tank?

I was just letting this topic go, since debates of opinions seldom accomplish anything, but I hate to see someone telling someone else not to comment if the comment doesn't agree with their theory.

Now, I will move along and let it go.


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## ianiwane (May 6, 2005)

My statement was sarcastic, but it was meant in a constructive way. That statement was meant for yxberia to think things out before posting. The information given by him/her was not right. Its not, I don't "believe" its right, yxberia was giving false information which he/she thought was true. For this reason what you are saying does not hold true. I agree, there's normally more than one way to do something to get the same outcome. However, if the thought process in which it is obtained is wrong, I believe one should be corrected. People should understand why they are doing things and not do it just because. 

I am sorry about assuming that you keep your co2 at 30ppm. And I did not know it takes half a day for your pH to return to normal. Although I do not need to know your kH to know your co2 levels. If your pH is 8.2 with out CO2 and 7.0 with CO2 as you stated your CO2 concentration is over 30ppm.

How is anything that I said "my theory." How is reading a CO2 chart "my theory." You are doing the same to me as I did to yxberia (using sarcasm to prove a point) except you are putting up false statements, I did not. How is saying think before you post again, "telling someone else not to comment if the comment doesn't agree with their theory." It means just think before you post. If you thought about it then post, nothing more nothing less.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

TWood said:


> LOL, let's make things even -more- unnecessarily complex!


  More gadgets!


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