# Talent v. Effort



## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I think that I've noticed that quite a few people think of ability in aquascaping as talent. For instance, I often see comments like, "You're very talented" in regard to people's work. What about effort though?








Wow . . . :heh:










Here are two scapes done by the same scaper. :heh: I did the first one in 2004, 2 years ago. Feels so much longer. 

When someone tells me that my work is good and that I'm talented, I feel a bit strange because I'm inclined to think:

It's not at all about talent, it's all about how hard I worked, how much time and thought I spent on it, how many years I spent in aquascaping, or at least doing art.

On the other hand, when I see a brilliantly done layout, I'm inclined to think it's about the person's talent.

Admittedly, both of these views are biased. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Talent, and effort are both involved.

However, I tend to feel that effort is the more underestimated of these by aquarium communities. When I hear comments like a project is "well thought out," it's usually in regard to the schematics/hardware, rather than design.

But effort is about design and art as well. Talent is inborn, right? So therefore, my talent didn't change at all between the two layouts I showed above..

The things that changed were my resources, knowledge, and experience.

Aquascaping costs a lot, so yes resources are a big deal, but I don't think the difference between these two layouts is in resources alone.

Knowledge and experience are things that come from effort. They come from doing and thinking about the work, and in great part-- how much time you spend doing and thinking about the work. They make all the difference.

In conceiving of a scape:

-Knowledge makes all the difference in choosing an assortment of well proportioned and shaped Ohko stones instead of ugly white and black spotted stones with odd shaped mopani. It makes all the difference in knowing about plants, and knowing how and where to plant them (like not just sitting java moss on the ground untied. :heh:

-Experience makes all the difference in conceiving of a scape idea. It makes all the difference in having knowledge and instinct about past works both of myself and others so that I can combine ideas, and conceive of an inspired layout with carefully made design decisions-- as opposed to running to the nearest LFs and buying whatever's available as it becomes available and throwing it all in the tank. 

Talent only goes so far imo.

Any art teacher will tell you that he can teach anyone to draw. If the person works hard, and puts in the time, he can learn to draw a baseball as well as anyone could draw a baseball, down to the tiniest details. Really, it's hard to believe, but it's true. Talented people might get it faster, but effort can and will overcome that gap.

Talent only really comes into play in more subjective things like conceiving of a piece, positioning it on canvas, and executing it with one's personal style.

When it comes to the skills needed to draw-- like hand control, hand control, knowing how to create texture-- the skills absolutely needed to make the piece-- can be learned by *anyone* given enough effort. And yet, that's not all, because effort *also* affects conceiving of a piece, positioning it on canvas, and executing it with one's personal style.

Talent is where we start, and is a deep part of our identities as artists-- but great work only really emerges with time and effort.

Aquascaping is the same.

Talent does effect what we think of, how we put the parts together, how we develop our own style (if we ever do). But effort is important too.

And when it comes to things like knowing how to plant plants, knowing what plants are out there, and knowing the more basic design skills-- those are the equivalent of learning how to draw. It's attainable by anyone through effort.

I sometimes feel like people complain that they have no talent, when really the thing that's holding them back is effort. I'm sure I'll be hated by many for saying that. :mrgreen:

I don't know, I wanted to just say this to open discussion. What do others think?

For the road, another classic "Chong" piece:


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## Aussie_hippie_2 (Nov 11, 2006)

huh, very true. That actually gives me hope, since momentarily I by no means have the resources or the dedication to learn the skills that many of you possess. And my work shows that; just slightly better looking then the average fish-keeper, but with more algae. However I know that when I do have the time and resources in years to come, I've obtained the knowledge to do so, and will possibly discover some hidden talent.

Good job.


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Steven I couldn't agree with you more on the points stated. talent is great as far as it gets one, but it just doesn't go far enough if the person isn't willing to put forth the effort to pratice and perfect. IMO talent is one of those things that sets a good scape apart from a great one, it can give a good layout that extra edge... but it can't make a bad layout good.

In high school I had never taken an art class, and couldn't draw at all. My senior year I decided to take Art 1 to "fill up space" more or less and found out that I loved art. By the end of the semister I was one of the best in my class, and was really impressing myself along with others with what I was doing. Talent? No before that I could barley draw stick figures... effort took me all that way. I was willing to work hard and learn basic principles.... and I was willing to practice them to become better.


I dont want to throw ratios on how its split up, but doing a good layout most definantly comes more from expierence and practice, than it does for having talent, or an "eye for art". All the talent in the world could never make up for the usefulness that expierence brings to you.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

I agree completely! I think that art is actually very hard work. I have never spent even close to as many hours studying to do well in a science class as my husband did in his art classes. I never spent 40 hours on a genetics homework, but many of his paintings take that long, or longer. Nothing worth doing is ever simple or easy, I suppose. In addition, it is amazing the transformation that his artwork has undergone in the past twelve years that I have known him. He definitely is talented, but this improvement is the result of training and more-importantly, hard work. 

I suppose that the take home lesson from this is that anyone can become at least a decent aquascaper. It just takes passion, perseverance and patience and PRACTICE.


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## Dave Spencer (Mar 4, 2007)

I`ll have to disagree to a certain extent, Steven. 

All my life I have loved football (soccer) and I have burnt billions of calories chasing a ball around with the sweat dripping off my face. I still do it today because I love it, and have never given anything than my utmost best to the game. 

Despite all of this, I could never hope to match the poetry in motion that is Zinedine Zidane. He may be dismissed as a sportsman, but the way he plays and anticipates the movement of the game is pure genius. Watching him dictate the pace a game of football is a majestic art and one I could never come close to matching. 

Believe me Steven, there are billions of young boys throughout the world at this very moment who do not compromise on effort when it comes to playing football, yet it is likely there may be one Zidane amongst them, or possibly even none. 

My son plays through sun, rain snow and the dark. I hope he will realise his dream one day. If he doesn`t, it will not be through lack of effort.

Dave.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

With unlimited Effort - you'll get there eventually.

With talent, you'll get there more quickly.

With unlimited talent, you'll recognize 1)when you're there and 2)when no amount of effort will get you where you were thinking of going.

I also agree that talent, without due effort and dedication, is a waste.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

2005








2006








2007









Same tank - same person - same camera

My point is - effort. Put your time and energi into it. Use all the help and advice (Thanks for Aquascaping ph. 101 - steven)

I think almost everyone can create a good aquascape, using the advice and knowledge available. Listen when people say - dont do that, do this instead. 
You can do it your way, all the way. But at least try out what people suggest. Thats the effort thats gonna get you somewhere...

When people told me to: 
uppen my tech - i did.
use the right ferts and CO2 - i did.
focus on the midground - i did.

Compromises is a waste of time, effort and talent!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Dave Spencer said:


> I`ll have to disagree to a certain extent, Steven.
> 
> All my life I have loved football (soccer) and I have burnt billions of calories chasing a ball around with the sweat dripping off my face. I still do it today because I love it, and have never given anything than my utmost best to the game.
> 
> ...


Very well made point Dave. And I'd agree-- open a contest book from ADA and see almost 1000 entrees-- and how many of them are even close in skill to Amano? 10? less? lol

One thing I'll tell you thought Dave-- there's no where near a billion people trying to become an Amano, and people pushing themselves as much in aquascaping as your son does in football are few and far between. 

I still get the feeling that the majority of people in aquascaping are more like the 3 year olds who play soccer-- having fun, but not really taking the game seriously.

There's PLENTY of room for appreciating effort more. That was my point.

It's one thing to say-- I realize there's a limit as to how far I can go without talent by effort alone.

It's another to say-- I didn't even try very hard. 

I'll look forward to the day where there's a billion boys aquascaping, and maybe only one reaches the highest levels but the rest didn't miss it for lack of effort.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Dave - concerning soccer. If there were as many practising aquascaping as there are people practising soccer i think we all would have a different view on our own "talent"


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Damn steven... lol


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Got you Pjerrot.  

AMAZING progression BTW.


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## bharada (Apr 17, 2004)

Effort can make you good. Talent, combined with effort, is what makes you great.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

That's a good way of putting it Bill

So maybe in that context I should say-- "The issue is, that there are still not enough 'good' aquascapers out there."


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## ringram (Jan 10, 2005)

I totally agree with you on this. I used to think I had little or no talent in this hobby. I struggled with algae on my little 20g for yeeears. Finally, I spent some $$ on a larger, better setup and used all of the knowledge and skill I had obtained, but hadn't been able to actually use to the fullest. I'm happy with my work now and know that it's much, much better than it was even 6 months ago and will probably continue with my continued interest and learning. 
Once you get the "growing plants" thing, which it took me a while to get right, you can start to focus your attention on other things. For me, it was creating a specific atmosphere and focus to the scape, rather than randomly placed weeds. 
Resources ($$) and dedication speak loudly in this hobby. Those things will get you far, even if you don't possess artistic ability.....I've never been able to draw or anything like that, so that gives you an idea. 
Art comes in many forms. Music, sports, (public) speaking, aquascaping, drawing, painting, etc.

-Ryan


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I dunno, people.....

People can work hard at drawing, art, dance, etc. and put a ton of effort into it, but it won't necessarily make them a great artist or dancer. I think effort will allow you to "get by," in the way that when you first start drawing you can can progress from drawing a round-ish shape, to making the shape look circular, to making a good circle, even adding dimensions with shading so the circle looks like a sphere, to drawing a bunch of spheres to make grapes, etc, etc.

But it doesn't make you Picasso or Rembrant. Talent takes one to a naturally elite level that most people can't achieve regardless of how much time, money, and effort they put into the hobby. I'm not saying that I am one of those people! Anyone agree?


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## Genin (Jan 28, 2007)

donaldmboyer said:


> I dunno, people.....
> 
> People can work hard at drawing, art, dance, etc. and put a ton of effort into it, but it won't necessarily make them a great artist or dancer. I think effort will allow you to "get by," in the way that when you first start drawing you can can progress from drawing a round-ish shape, to making the shape look circular, to making a good circle, even adding dimensions with shading so the circle looks like a sphere, to drawing a bunch of spheres to make grapes, etc, etc.
> 
> But it doesn't make you Picasso or Rembrant. Talent takes one to a naturally elite level that most people can't achieve regardless of how much time, money, and effort they put into the hobby. I'm not saying that I am one of those people! Anyone agree?


I do agree. I am actually a dance instructor as a side job and some students will try and try and no matter what they will never be a great dancer. What I focus on is 'do they enjoy what they do'. For me, my tank is what I enjoy, not what the standard "cool" look is or point of focus and golden rules. I am definately not the most talented at aquascaping but it makes me darn happy with the amount of effort I am willing and able to put into it  .


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

donaldmboyer said:


> I dunno, people.....
> 
> People can work hard at drawing, art, dance, etc. and put a ton of effort into it, but it won't necessarily make them a great artist or dancer. I think effort will allow you to "get by," in the way that when you first start drawing you can can progress from drawing a round-ish shape, to making the shape look circular, to making a good circle, even adding dimensions with shading so the circle looks like a sphere, to drawing a bunch of spheres to make grapes, etc, etc.


I think you underestimate how much can be learned through effort. With drawing at least, if they work hard, _anyone_ could get to the point where looking at something, they could draw it to near-photo-like detail. Shading, dimension, shape-- really, anyone can be taught to render what the objects they see. I'm serious.

The talent for drawing/painting comes only in style, conception, composition. Granted, those things are the differences between Michaelangelo and a guy who can just draw a really detailed mayonaise jar, but the point is-- don't underestimate what can be done through sheer effort.

My sister is learning Ballet now. She's always plagued by her supposed "lack of talent," but I find her incredibly beautiful to watch. Is she a great dancer? No, but she is a good one. As Bill mentioned. Talent might be needed to become great, but we won't know how far we can go unless we give it our all.

Granted, it's impossible for everyone to give everything in everything. I'm definitely under-exploring what talent I have for digital art and painting. That's certainly true, and I can't blame people for not choosing to give aquascaping their all.

BUT, this is the AQUASCAPING forum, and seeing as its purpose is to advance the art of aquascaping and help people become better aquascapers--

I'd expect people posting their work here to work hard for it, and be willing to learn and push themselves.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I just thought of a new twist to this discussion.

I mentioned originally that knowledge and experience come with effort-- but are they boosted by talent too?

IE-- does someone's who is talented gain knowledge and experience faster? My initial reaction is-- yes, actually, a talented person does.

What do others think? Perhaps showing "Progression Shots" is not a convincing argument, because, maybe,

people's talent might be inhibited from showing itself because of lack of knowledge and experience, but as they grow the talent will become more visible?

Certainly with Dance I think, a teacher will see a student's talent more and more as the student learns a bit more-- enough to for more of the student's talent to be expressed.


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## nap83 (Feb 7, 2006)

i think talent comes from effort as well... i have a lot of great ideas for my aquascapes but when the day comes to build it i'm too hurried and most of the time i end up looking at my hardscape saying "aahh it looks ok, i'll work more on it later" missing my true intention for the layout. hence; if i put more effort in making the "slope" work (for example) or choosing the right plants (another example) or if i have waited for the perfect driftwood or rock to come by (yet another example), then i would've had a much better aquascape. 

much of my early work had great ideas behind it but fell through because of the loss of effort on my part. a lot of nice scapes in here took time & patience i'm sure. slowly but surely i'm learning that this is a virtue.


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## Genin (Jan 28, 2007)

"*people's talent might be inhibited from showing itself because of lack of knowledge and experience, but as they grow the talent will become more visible?"*

absolutely. someone who possesses a natural talent should be able to better express it and have it be visible to others as they learn to hone their gifts. without experience or knowledge it wouldn't matter how talented someone was a specific one thing, they would never be able to nurture that ability.

Example, chess player prodigy. Natural gift with the strategy of chess and ability to calculate moves and moves ahead of opponents. That talent wouldn't count for crap if someone did not play chess with that person and give the the knowledge of how the pieces move and the experience of knowing how to play every situation.

*Certainly with Dance I think, a teacher will see a student's talent more and more as the student learns a bit more-- enough to for more of the student's talent to be expressed."*

That is why parents send their kids off to schools like Julliard. An instructor will tell the parents your kid has some real talent and it needs to be nurtured by someone that can show them the techniques and give them the tools to reach their potential.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Genin said:


> "*people's talent might be inhibited from showing itself because of lack of knowledge and experience, but as they grow the talent will become more visible?"*
> 
> absolutely. someone who possesses a natural talent should be able to better express it and have it be visible to others as they learn to hone their gifts. without experience or knowledge it wouldn't matter how talented someone was a specific one thing, they would never be able to nurture that ability.
> 
> ...


That makes the division between effort and talent harder to see.

Did I improve because I put in more effort so got more knowledge and experience?

Or did I improve because in getting more knowledge and experience, my talent became more revealed?

Did I gain knowledge and experience through effort? Or through talent?

If you consider Talent something that can be altered like Nap (though I personally feel that changes the definition of "talent"), then it becomes even more muddled.



tal·ent 
-noun
1.	a special natural ability or aptitude

I think "natural" and "aptitude" implies it's something fixed and cannot be changed.

What can be changed is your insight, which is affected by your talent and your experience.

All these definitions may just be superficial though. :heh:

There's strong, and then there's weak. I think we'd have to agree though that both inborn gifts and hard work both go into making one strong_er_.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I am sorry Steve, but I really have to agree with Genin on this. I would love to agree with you, but I would be lying. 

I think that you mistake the notion that with great effort comes great talent eventually. I wish that were true. My sister, when we were younger, tried competitive swimming to see if she took after me. She went to lessons, and to practice, then we would go up in the afternoon and I would practice with her and coach and instruct her. GOD BLESS HER, she tried and tried and tried! She and I spent three years trying to improve her with practice and technique training, weight training, running, etc. She was a good athlete! But she could never swim worth a lick. 

She tried so hard and put so much effort in to getting faster, but never was better than a below average competitive swimmer. I made state cuts and all-state in both my summer league and in high school. I never went to morning practices in high school. I never swam "year-round." I was in the upper echelon of what I chose to do because I had a natural talent in swimming, and I excelled in it.

However, when I got to state meets, I would come in the top 12, and placed 5th my senior year. That was great. But the guys that beat me, were seconds ahead of me. They probably put in more effort than I did by going to morning practices or swimming year-round. But I can say without hesitation that all things being equal, they still would have beat me. They were naturally more talented than I was.

I think that when I do my aquascaping, I draw upon my creative side (I used to draw with charcol and pastels and sell my work at art shows and for clients), and with effort, I have improved upon my natural talent with it. I also worked landscape design for three years after high school, so I can also draw upon a unique knowledge base that I already had with understanding how lighting, soil, ferts, etc., can effect plant growth, so I had a bit of a head start. I feel fairly confident that I am probably one of the best aquascapers in the metro Detroit area. I have achieved this through hard work, practice, effort, and natural talent.

But, as evident here in this forum, there are people here that are at least as good as I am, if not WAY SUPERIOR to myself. Now, they may be lucky, their tanks may only look good for a month, but if the idea is to capture one split second of aquatic nature in perfection, one need not put in a lot of effort; they have to have the talent of putting plants together in manner that is unique and artistic. 
Heck, they conceiveably could just take all the materials and plants and driftwood after they plan it out on paper, lay everything out in the tank according to plan, make the necessary tweaks, and take a picture or two only to take everything back out and throw it away to make room for the next award winning shot.

Minimal effort, great talent. You see?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

This isn't meant to be condescending-- I'm just confused.

Because I was agreeing with Genin.

Not to mention that I said: "Talent cannot be changed."

Are you sure you read my posts right?


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

tal·ent 
–noun
1. a special natural ability or aptitude

I think "natural" and "aptitude" implies it's something fixed and cannot be changed.

All these definitions may just be superficial though.

It seemed as though you had disagreed by these two statements combined.....what I am saying simply is that people are naturally more talented at some things than others is all. I guess we all agree then, huh?


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## Haeun (Oct 19, 2006)

I find it interested that this discussion is tied in with art.

I personally think that aquascaping is very much an artistic/creative thing, though it requires much "technical" knowledge. Those who are gifted/talent in the creative area will probably have an easier time than someone who doesn't, naturally. How effort factors in is uncertain.

I tend to think in this way: on a scale of A, B, C, and D, a person 1, with natural "talent" (however defined), might start off on the B level. Person 2, who doesn't have this talent, might start off on the A level. Both strive for the D level. In order to reach D, they must reach C first. Person 1 will have an easier time reaching C, because they naturally start off at B. Person 2 must struggle harder to reach C, because they have to work from A to B then to C. For both Person 1 and 2, effort is necessary. The difference is how much. (And once C is reached, the only way to reach D is with more effort and experience.)
I also tend to think because Person 1 has talent, the rate (not just speed) at which they can achieve C is quicker.
Also, I think how much talent you have defines the limit of the person; the greater your talent, the more potential (s)he has and higher the limit. If a person just has absolutely no talent at the said area, then his/her limit would be very low.

*shrug* Just my philosophy.  Who would've known that aquascaping could've involved philosophy?

Oh, and...


Steven_Chong said:


> Did I improve because I put in more effort so got more knowledge and experience?
> 
> Or did I improve because in getting more knowledge and experience, my talent became more revealed?
> 
> Did I gain knowledge and experience through effort? Or through talent?


Ahhhh, the classic "the chicken or the egg?" question...  Who knows? I say your otherwise artistic abilities definitely contributed.


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## gacp (Sep 11, 2006)

Effort will get you there, eventually. Talent will get you there, faster. Genius will take you _beyond._

Talent is like the size of your engine, and effort is like the time you keep that engine running. Power multiplied by time equals your result. A car or a boat with a more powerful engine will get you there faster than one with a smaller engine. But there are places where you just _can't get to_ unless you have a truly powerful machine.

In the sci-tech world, any ammount of talent to which you add enough effort will make you a good technician. Only true genius will make you a discoverer-inventor, the likes of Pasteur or Edison. In art, any ammount of talent to which you add enough effort will make you a good artisan. Only true genius will make you an artist, the likes of Leonardo or Rodin. In sports, any ammount of talent to which you add enough effort will make you a good athlete. Only true genius will make you an true sports star like Maradona or Jet Lee.

No matter how much talent you have and how much effort you put into copying, say, Amano, until you can fake his work well enough to fool everyone but him (and even him if he has a poor memory , still you'll never be the like of Amano. Sure, you will be an expert aquascaper, one that creates superb tanks. But an aquascaper will only be of Amano's calliber when he goes _beyond_, like Amano did. That takes *genius*---no 2 ways around it.

To continue a discussion Steven started somewhere else, it took Amano genius to bring Japanese gardens and wabi-sabi into aquascaping---now it takes just talent and effort to do it. It will still take genius to bring this to aquascaping:










I can only wonder you other people see _why_ I like the scence so much. It is the form-fits-function of the fishes in its environment, these leponinids have been at it for millions of years at it shows, they fit the surroungings in a wornderful composition.

This I haven't yet seen in aquascaping, even when I try and ever try harder, I still fail. I can't tell if I will ever get it right---probably not.

Bringing this to aquascaping will take _genius,_ and no ammount of effort will make up for it and won't get it right until a genial aquascaper shows the way first. Sorry Steven, no way José no ammount of effor will make up for it. :heh:


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

So if I were to make an aquascape like that, you'd call me a genius?  

I'll add it to my (very tall) stack of scapes I have to get to someday. 

It's definitely a beautiful motif


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## C.ton (Nov 6, 2006)

gacp said:


> Bringing this to aquascaping will take _genius,_ and no ammount of effort will make up for it and won't get it right until a genial aquascaper shows the way first. Sorry Steven, no way José no ammount of effor will make up for it. :heh:


effort is willingness to try, and if you don't try, you won't achieve. Now if there was no effort put into making that aquascape then no one could take what that person has learned and evolve from it.

as for sports, the human body is built differently so talent is only a part of it but effort, mentality, and willingness to thrive in adversity is what will get you there.

I joined gymnastic freshmen year of my high school not even knowing what gymnastic was, I wasn't the only one either, the whole team except for one kid was base of a bunch of kids just doing it for the hell of it, that one kids has done gymnastic all his life. By the end of senior year our school took second in state to the school that had all club gymnastic kids.

Talent of course played a role but like others have stated, it take effort and lots of it to achieved what we did.


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## bErNaX (Jul 12, 2006)

2005:










2007:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/36643-hardscape-d-4.html



hehehehehe:bathbaby:


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Perhaps, just maybe, there are different levels of natural talent? I think that anyone who tries to better themselves in regards to aquascaping puts in a consistent amount of effort.

I feel that aquascaping is a type of art! It's like "underwater natural sculpture."


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

Hmmm, I'm not convinced the comparisons to sports are all that valid or usefull. The physical demands of aquascaping are very low, mainly trimming plants and tweezer control, things anyone without severe arthritis should be able to manage without problems 
Whereas sports have significant physical demands, often requiring specific body shapes or attributes to even have the potential to rise to the highest level. Tremendous effort is of course necesarry, but in sports will never guaruntee success.

To illustrate my point, I'll use my favorite pitcher of all time, Pedro Martinez. Much of his success was based on well placed effort, he not only learned to throw a ball at over ninety miles an hour, but he also learned to throw all his pitches from the same arm angle and at the same release point, making it much more difficult for hitters to know what was coming. Another element to his success was attitude.
He never let an opposing hitter get comfortable, he stared them down, challenged them, and when upset, threw the ball at them.

But none of this would have been worth anything if not for one thing. He has exceptionally long fingers. Quite simply, because of a random bodily attribute, he had more control over the balls rotation and movement than most anyone else could ever achieve. This was the one thing IMO that allowed all the effort and attitude to pay off.

How many Olympic gymnasts have not been extremely petite? How many basketball players have not been quite tall? If you don't luck out in the hereditary department, you simply can't get there from here.

Perhaps there is some innate artistic eye, or vision that cannot be taught? I'm unconvinced though. Perhaps not everyone can become an innovative aquascaper, but I think with effort anyone can become an excellent aquascaper.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

You are talking about MLB pitcher!!!! A person with a supreme natural talent to pitch in the Majors! I couldn't think of a better example to prove my point! 

Basketball--what about Spud Webb? Isiah Thomas? Earl Boyle? Jordan was just under six and a half feet, which isn't extremely tall. Steve Nash? These are all extremely talented players, not just people that put in a lot of effort to be where they are today (or yester-year).

No doubt that if people can build upon what they learn, they can have a very good looking aquascape. But all I'm saying is that there are also people out there that have a natural talent (like Amano among several others) that just have a natural knack or talent for doing what they do.


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## C.ton (Nov 6, 2006)

Minsc said:


> How many Olympic gymnasts have not been extremely petite? How many basketball players have not been quite tall? If you don't luck out in the hereditary department, you simply can't get there from here.
> 
> Perhaps there is some innate artistic eye, or vision that cannot be taught? I'm unconvinced though. Perhaps not everyone can become an innovative aquascaper, but I think with effort anyone can become an excellent aquascaper.


many gymnasts are petite because of the use and straining of the muscle at such a young age stunting their growth but i must agree, aquascaping and sport are irrelevant considering how art is a beauty only within the eye of the beholder


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## Round Head (Feb 28, 2006)

I have no talent in aquascaping and art.
I just don't have the eyes it take to make things look good.
Of course I try and put in alot of time; however everything turned out not the way I like them to.
It seems that my method is the shotgun method of aquascaping; keep on changing things around until I like it. As of now, I have not liked what I had created. I am probably my worst critique.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Cton...you do make a good point that aquascaping is subjective to a large degree.

RoundHead.....I'm sure that your scapes look perfectly fine. What I am trying to say is that most of us fit into what you are saying. A few have that "eye," the rest of us are trying to pursue that level. Some of us may never reach it.

But the fun is in the trying-part. Bottom line is that you enjoy it because it's supposed to be fun and relaxing, right?


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## Haeun (Oct 19, 2006)

> > How many Olympic gymnasts have not been extremely petite? How many basketball players have not been quite tall? If you don't luck out in the hereditary department, you simply can't get there from here.
> 
> 
> many gymnasts are petite because of the use and straining of the muscle at such a young age stunting their growth but i must agree, aquascaping and sport are irrelevant considering how art is a beauty only within the eye of the beholder










The chicken or the egg example again.

I personally think that aquascaping is indeed mainly an ART. It has many technical sides to it, but the bottom line is ART. The same way poetry writing is considered an art, and as theatre is considered an art; dance and painting are both considered art. And I consider aquascaping an art too. It requires knowledge about the workings, but so do the other areas of art, often.
*shrug* That's my input.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

C.ton said:


> Aquascaping and sport are irrelevant considering how art is a beauty only within the eye of the beholder


If you read the thread discribing the purpose of this sub-forum, you'll find that we don't belive "beauty is in the eye of the beholder here." We're very adamant about there being varying degrees of excellence in art, to which we aspire. 

As for chickens and eggs . . . I never really understood how that was a paradox.

Animals were laying eggs long before the first chicken ever evolved. :heh:

And even if you change the question to, "What came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?" Then answers are easy, depending on how you define "chicken egg."

If you define "chicken egg" as: An egg that hatches into a chicken

Than obviously the egg came first, since the first animal deemed a "chicken" would have had parents that weren't chickens. :heh:

If you define "chicken egg" as: An egg layed by a chicken

Than obviously the chicken came first because the first chicken egg (by this definition) couldn't exist unless layed by a chicken. :heh:

IE-- it's really not a confusing question once you get the ground rules down. 

Anyway, that's what I thought to myself when I was 7 and my parents tried to convince me it was a paradox. I never believed them. XD

In any case-- I'll stop hijacking my own thread.


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## C.ton (Nov 6, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> If you read the thread discribing the purpose of this sub-forum, you'll find that we don't belive "beauty is in the eye of the beholder here." We're very adamant about there being varying degrees of excellence in art, to which we aspire.





Steven_Chong said:


> If Talent does effect what we think of, *how we put the parts together, how we develop our own style (if we ever do)*. But effort is important too.


Would this not be considered as a beauty of your own?

There will always be critiques and criticism, what I see in my eyes, you may not and what you see in your eyes, I may not. There will always be that "what if" factor to perfection.
:-k


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## Dave Spencer (Mar 4, 2007)

Putting in 100% effort is the easy part, especially if it is something you enjoy. Achieving 100% talent from this? That is down to God, I am afraid. 

No matter how hard I try I will never be the next Leonardo da Vinci, Isaac Newton, William Shakespeare, Charles Darwin or Takashi Amano. None of this through a lack of effort, it is due to my limited talent. I can always put in 100%, but never get 100% out.

Still, no worries. I love my sport and I love aquascaping. For me, 100% enjoyment = 100% effort = 50% talent.

Dave.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Hmmm . . . well Dave, I'd believe you that you're putting in 100% effort since your iwagumi is (and I think you'll have to admit this yourself) looking like it will eventually be a "good" scape, better than the majority of stuff I see around here anyway. It really does look like it will look good-- I just wish that the tank itself was shorter.  I doubt for most here putting in 100% effort is an easy task.

C. Ton-- You make your own style, but people in general, excellence in general, is not decided by you alone.

As gacp would put it, "Many ways up the mountain." My "style" is basically my "way." But I'm still climbing the same mountain.

The mountain does include my opinion, because I am a human-- but ultimately the mountain is built up by the opinions of everyone I consider my audience. I'll probably never hear from most of them (unless it's a work I made specifically for just myself or a very small group), but in general their sense of ascetics will not be too different from mine (depending on what audience I choose), so I just approximate. Often what I think is excellence will be appreciated by the majority of my audience. If not, I got to hone my skills more.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Talent vs. effort huh? Well, IMO, the answer is yes. Without substantial effort, you'll never gain the knowledge and experience necessary to grow healthy plants. This is an absolute prerequisite for any 'scape and is responsible for keeping many people out of the hobby. It really is "living art", in this respect similar to only a handful of other art forms.

Once you have the prerequisite "plant knowledge", a dedication to the art form of aquascaping, and discipline enough to keep the setup healthy, the rest of it comes down to talent. Some people have it. Some don't.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

guaic-- but I don't think effort only has to do with the plant growing part. With the art part too, there's definitely a need for effort.

I mean, a lot of people don't even do the most basic things they could do to help their aquascaping improve.

For instance:

-Read the Literature: How many people haven't even read the Nature Aquarium World series? How many people haven't at least looked up some of the basic principles of Dutch Design? Have read through the archives here at APC?

-Research Scapes: Look at aquascapes-- a lot-- from Amano, look through all the old ADA and AGA results. Look through as many scapes from older scapers as possible.

-Research Plants: At least know about as many of the plants in the hobby as possible.

-Look for inspiration: Try to go to places and see things that would inspire you. Keep looking through works from other art forms-- especially nature photography. I frequently go through all the newest photos at Deviantart and favorite all the ones I like so that I'll be able to find them again, and at least I've seen them.

-Bring the Attitude: Bring the mentality that you're always looking for new inspiration, always trying to put different ideas together, trying to improve and expland. 

Also the attitude of an artist-- I'm going to make my own way, and am not afraid to break the rules, but I'm going to educate myself as best as I can so that when I do break the rules I know how and why I'm doing it so that my dicisions are intelligent, rather than random.

-Spend time thinking about it!


None of the things I've mentioned above need talent to do. They only require time and persistance. They're some basic and obvious steps to take if one really wants to improve-- and this is only a fraction of what I do to try to improve myself even while working on the same scape.


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## Dave Spencer (Mar 4, 2007)

A lot of what you have said about aquascaping right there Steven can, in my mind, be regarded as effortless. Researching plants and learning how to grow them takes effort of a sort, but it is enjoyable, making effort a dirty word in this instance. 

For me, effort is going to work to earn the money that I can spend on my plants, ferts etc.

P.S. Thanks for the words on the Iwagumi. I suppose trying to keep the algae away from this new tank definitely can be regarded as effort, but one of very few in aquascaping. The rest of it is all too enjoyable to be ths.

P.P.S. Keep the interesting discussion threads coming, you seem to think of them so effortlessly.:hail: :hail: :hail: 

Dave.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

How about the word "attention" instead of effort then? Even if you don't want to call it effort, you do pay a lot of attention to your aquascaping, neh?


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Why is the question "Vs"..?? i think you need both.... not only in aquascaping... in anything you do practically..


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I think that what you need is a natural talent in aquascaping, not just effort, to make something incredibly beautiful, but also unique. Surely you need both, but the point is that you need that something "extra" which only natural talent can provide.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I think that talent and attention/effort go hand in hand on this one but the later much more!

I just did a layout and I feel that it took much more of the later cause I don't consider myself to be that talented but will put forth effort to something I want and that being a good scape.


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## gf225 (Mar 26, 2005)

Steven, you have a talent for creating interesting topics! Or do you have to put a lot of effort into thinking up these threads? 

Personally I have been told I have a talent, but I don't think so. I know that I have to put in a tonne of effort to produce anything half-respectable.

Of course, we all get better with practice (effort). Some get better quicker than others, and that's where the talent comes into play to some extent, at least, given effort as a constant.

It's great to see the progression of members' aquascaping in this thread, by the way. It would make a great thread by itself.


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## morta_skuld (Sep 20, 2006)

as for me as a newbie talent will come with a lot of effort. THere are people who really have a talent in scaping but none the less the people who has a very deep passion in scaping who learns in every projects he has done.


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Nice thread.

Some from my ancient history :heh:

February 2004 (sorry for picture but this is only one i have from that time)










December 2004 (same tank but more light, CO2 and ferts)










My opinion is that effort is needed but talent is more important. Amano said that his first 10years in aquascaping was defeat and now he is master. You can be good if you practice, learn etc but IMO you must "got it"  if you want to be "master".


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Norbert - From february to december: What did you do?

I mean - did you do things like what Steven mentioned in #42?

Or did it just pop out?

( i read the interview in the libery here on APC, and recomment it to anyone)


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

To be honest, it took me a lot longer to make the amount of improvement I see between Norbert's February and December shots.

But, I often wonder what it would have been like if I'd had the $ for pressurized CO2 (what really held me back earlier from making a more high-tech set up) 2 years ago. At the time I was always complaining that I could do much better works if only I'd had the equipment-- I'll guess we'll never know.

Or, maybe we do know, because the gap between my work right before getting my 60cm equipment, and right after getting it is pretty big too:

From Here:









To Here (Hau Coast):









And I mean, the only real differences between them are:

-ADA 60cm + Highlight + Pressurized CO2 + Aquasoil + The exact plants I wanted from ASW
-A Canon EOS 10D instead of a point-and-shoot borrowed from a friend
-3 months time (including a trip to Japan, where admittedly I did see a lot of inspiring things, but I had already been planning Hau Coast long before I went to Japan).

And even while working on the first of these two scapes, I had already been drawing things like this:

The Aquasketch invisioning the first of these two:








never really made it here . . . lol

The Aquasketch Envisioning Hau Coast:









I remember always thinking that "These drawings are the reflection of my true artistic abilities, and if only I could get the equipment I needed, I could make a wonderful aquascape."

And it was true.

But then, I also remember thinking, "I wish I had pressurized CO2, but this scape also taught me a lot-- about the plants I grew in it, and the basics of ferts." Since that was the first tank I ever dosed dry ferts in. So, I think I learned from doing that one as well.

You can tell me opinion on the subject is rather ambigiuous. Norbert's stance on talent being more important in a way is one I can relate to from experience as well.


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Anti-Pjerrot said:


> Norbert - From february to december: What did you do?
> 
> I mean - did you do things like what Steven mentioned in #42?
> 
> Or did it just pop out?


Yes, something similar to what Steven wrote.
I started this 180lts tank in January 2004 (this was my first tank from maaaaany years) like average beginer "all in one tank" . I used standard shop lighting 2x30W and DIY CO2 (yeast+sugar+H20 ). I read many threads about ferts, lighting, water condition, plants condition etc on polish planted tank forum. I was fascinate Amano's works so i started thinking about planted tank and in end of April 2004 i was ready (new gravel, 4x30W and pres. CO2). I don't read any books about art or Dutch style - to be honest i don't know all dutch style rules :heh:. With this tank i mades lot changes (every month new plants or little rescape) so i think i learn lot about trimming, composition with plants and water condition. I also made road from many plants species to few species in one layout.
In the end of this page you can see evolution of my 180lts in 2004.
http://www.aquadesign.pl/galeria_180.htm

Of course money are importand - IMO beter wait a little and have all stuff than be impatient and start tank without for example press. CO2.
My 180lts tank with lot of DIY stuff cost about 600$ (with plants, fish, filter, light, CO2 etc) but my new 182lts with ADA stuff cost....hmm, over 2200$. Like you see everyone can build good tank without extra money - question is only what you want? I started with DIY but now i want "IKEA looking" thats why i chose mark like ADA or Arcadia.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Norbert - What i see in your progression - that really falls in my eye when looking over the progression of the tank - is your improvement in trimming. Talent or effort?

How much effort did you put into getting it right? Was it just something that just felt natural or did you get better practicing many times?

Squawkbert#6:


> With talent, you'll get there more quickly.


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