# Bought dry ferts... Couple quick questions.



## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

I went to a local hydroponics store to pick up some dry ferts.

I got my KH2PO4, KNO3, and trace elements, great!

When I got home I noticed the KH2PO4 listed on the label "Guaranteed analysis (min): Available Phosphoric Acid P2O5.... 46%"

Could someone just explain what P2O5 has to do with KH2PO4? Does some of the phosphates in KH2PO4 become P2O5 when mixed with water? I'm just a little curious about that...

Second question... I can't find Plantex CSM+B anywhere around here. I live in Canada, and I really hate getting packages shipped across border from the states. So what I got is this "Trace Elements" fertilizer. I believe it's just a no-name in-store brand. There's no content analysis of it anywhere though, and the guy couldn't tell me the contents himself, he just said it's what he uses for all his hydroponic vegetables so it's safe for horticultural uses (no dyes, pesticides, etc).

Are these dry trace element ferts all pretty standard? What would you do in this situation? My understanding is one of the great things about dry ferts is that there are no brand names that you need to look for that can only be found in certain countries.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks!


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## Gramazing (Mar 6, 2010)

Is there any kind of label on it? One that might point to the company that assembled the stuff?


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

Skizhx said:


> When I got home I noticed the KH2PO4 listed on the label "Guaranteed analysis (min): Available Phosphoric Acid P2O5.... 46%"
> 
> Could someone just explain what P2O5 has to do with KH2PO4? Does some of the phosphates in KH2PO4 become P2O5 when mixed with water? I'm just a little curious about that...


The labeling of fertilizers is based on an archaic system where the numbers is based off of their "parent" compound. In the case of P, the parent compound is P2O5. (P2O5 will hydrolyze in water to form H3PO4 and other than being the parent compound, is not important to the home aquarist. As a biochemistry major in college, I did use P2O5 as a desiccant, however.) See the following wikipedia link for a further explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_of_fertilizer



Skizhx said:


> Second question... I can't find Plantex CSM+B anywhere around here. I live in Canada, and I really hate getting packages shipped across border from the states. So what I got is this "Trace Elements" fertilizer. I believe it's just a no-name in-store brand. There's no content analysis of it anywhere though, and the guy couldn't tell me the contents himself, he just said it's what he uses for all his hydroponic vegetables so it's safe for horticultural uses (no dyes, pesticides, etc).
> 
> Are these dry trace element ferts all pretty standard? What would you do in this situation? My understanding is one of the great things about dry ferts is that there are no brand names that you need to look for that can only be found in certain countries.
> 
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks!


Supposedly, the elemental makeup of trace element mixes are not equal. I was looking around to purchase some more dry fertilizers myself and was comparing information on Greenleafaquariums.com (GLA for short) and www.aquariumfertilizer.com. On GLA, i noticed that they sold both plantex CSM+B and something called miller microplex. I asked Orlando @ GLA about the difference between the two fertilizers and he sent me the following link:

http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.com/fertilizer/3339-diy-tropica-plant-nutrition.html

Therefore, there is supposedly some difference between the fertilizers and not all of them are made equally. (I've also read accounts online of people that do believe that the Tropica Fertilizer (Tropica Master Grow?) is superior to the other fertilizers, but that's just what i've read. Personally, as long as a fertilizer has all of the elements required, then there's no reason it can't be used as a micro-elements mix. Some just have different element ratios than others and this supposedly has a difference in plant color, growth, etc. I would be wary of fertilizers that are all-in-one, though since the purpose of a micro-elements mix is to supply the micro-elements, not more of the macro-elements.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I also wonder about some of these hydroponic mixtures being fish safe. There may be some compounds that have different amounts or mixyptures of some elements that would be plant safe but not fish safe. Copper is one that comes to mind. We need some copper but too much kills shrimp and at really high levels is a pesticide


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Hmmmm... This has me wondering then.

The ferts I purchased all came in plain clear containers with non-descript labels. There is no manufacturer or brand name on any of these containers, except what I believe to be a generic in-store brand.

I suspect one may be from Dutch Nutrient Formula (DNF), which strangely does not have anything about dry fertilizers on their website. And the store may have just relabeled the other ferts themselves from this manufacturer.

All the employee (who I believe was the store owner/manager) could tell me about them was they were "horticultural grade".

So I'm wondering, could the KH2PO4 or KNO3 contain any sort of compounds to help it dissolve, or to make it more readily available to plant roots in a hydroponics system, or to prevent it from altering PH, or some other purpose? Could such compound make the fertilizers less than safe to use with live fish and inverts if it was present in this fertilizer? Basically, is there much chance of this not being pure enough for aquarium use?

I'm guessing I should just cut my losses with the trace and take it as a lesson learned and look for a different trace fert that lists its contents analysis. But what about the macros I picked up?

PS - You don't suppose I could put a few pest snails into a 5gal tank and then replicate what a week long dosing routine would be like in my main tank, just to see if it bothers the inverts at all? Or am I best to just forget about the stuff I bought.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

I would buy what I knew was safe. Maybe some hobbyists up your way may have some alternatives for you. 

Metal toxicity builds up over time. Some species are way more susceptible than others. How much more will you pay by getting stuff from US. Just a few fish deaths might more than make up the extra cost.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

Well, first off I'm not sure if the border will ding me for duties, because they seem to do this randomly on a whim (one of the main reasons I stopped shipping things from the US). I haven't asked around suppliers to see if they've ever had problems, but with other items I've looked for in the past, they never had any idea, and when I contact customs to ask them specifically, they direct me to this hundred or so page pdf that lists absolutely everything that they may decide to charge me extra for, and of course this list isn't organised by materials or categories (ie. electronics, water filtration systems, etc). So that's one real problem I've had with shipping...

The other problem is that it seems that I can't get KNO3 shipped over from the US. At least I know bestaquariumregulator.com cannot ship KNO3 to Canada and they have a specific notice about that.

You're probably right though, my best bet would probably be to find other hobbyists in the area and ask what they use.

If anyone happens to know any good Canadian suppliers that I could order from online, that's another option. I'll start googling that.

For macro nutrients, there's no shortage at all... It's just I have no idea if there's any additives or other ingredients in it that I wouldn't want in my tank, so I'll have to look for a specific site aimed towards aquariums for those to know they're safe I guess *shrug*


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## cheaman (Mar 4, 2009)

If it is actually Dutch Nutrient Formula, it is aquarium safe. Their trace mix is almost identical to CSM+B.
DNF Micro:
7% iron
2% manganese
.4% zinc
.1% copper
1.3% boron
.66% molybdenum

I know several people (in Winnipeg) who use it exclusively without issue. I've ordered from the states before and agree it gets expensive with shipping, duty, etc...

Aquaflora in BC also carries most ferts if you want to order from within Canada as well. They also have a great selection of tissue culture plants!


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## jerrybforl (Jul 22, 2008)

Orlando from GLA is very helpful. I just spoke to him via several emails and he said the only real difference between Miller Microplex and CSM+B is copper. So unless you keep live bearers or inverts its cool.


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

jerrybforl said:


> Orlando from GLA is very helpful. I just spoke to him via several emails and he said the only real difference between Miller Microplex and CSM+B is copper. So unless you keep live bearers or inverts its cool.


Funny you should mention that because I also just asked Orlando about their micro mixes as well. In addition to the difference in Cu, he also mentioned that Miller Microplex has more Mn in it; Mn, according to Tom Barr, is the only other element in the micro mixes needed in larger quantities (like Fe). That is why GLA also sells MnSO4 - So one can add it to CSM+B w/ the addition of Fe(DPTA) to make a micro mix that more resembles Tropica Master Gro. He sent me the following link:

http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.com/fertilizer/3339-diy-tropica-plant-nutrition.html


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## jerrybforl (Jul 22, 2008)

> Funny you should mention that because I also just asked Orlando about their micro mixes as well. In addition to the difference in Cu, he also mentioned that Miller Microplex has more Mn in it; Mn, according to Tom Barr, is the only other element in the micro mixes needed in larger quantities (like Fe). That is why GLA also sells MnSO4 - So one can add it to CSM+B w/ the addition of Fe(DPTA) to make a micro mix that more resembles Tropica Master Gro. He sent me the following link:


Im not a chemistry guy or anything so if you would please explain to me what MnSO4 ( is that the miller microplex) and Fe(DPTA). Im not completely dumb about the elements. but I dont know exactly what they are in terms of names like MM. Thanks. I hope you understand what I'm asking.:crazy:


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## JeffyFunk (Apr 6, 2006)

jerrybforl said:


> Im not a chemistry guy or anything so if you would please explain to me what MnSO4 ( is that the miller microplex) and Fe(DPTA). Im not completely dumb about the elements. but I dont know exactly what they are in terms of names like MM. Thanks. I hope you understand what I'm asking.:crazy:


Mn = Manganese. This is an element used by plants in certain enzymes (Like Fe = Iron).

MnSO4 = Manganese(II) Sulfate. This is a soluble form of Mn that can be added to CSM+B to increase the concentration of Mn in it. This is done in order to mimic the element concentrations in Tropica Master Gro (considered by many to be the best micro-elements mix). Miller microplex already has a lot of Mn in it.

Fe(DPTA) = Fe is element Iron and DPTA is a ligand. A ligand is a chemical that is used to make Fe more soluble in solution and keep it stable. (Fe is normally not very soluble or stable in water). Normally, Fe in micro-element mixes is sold as Fe(EDTA). EDTA is also a ligand to make Fe more soluble, but results in a Fe complex that is not as stable. (Why is it used then? Because Fe(EDTA) is cheaper than Fe(DPTA)). Fe(DPTA) is a Fe complex that is supposedly more stable in water. Many plants benefit from fertilizing extra Fe. This is why it is added to both CSM+B and the Miller Microplex.


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## Skizhx (Oct 12, 2010)

So I did some searching around (believe me, it wasn't easy), and found out that yes, what I bought was indeed Dutch Nutrient Formula (DNF) repackaged with a no-name brand label slapped on the container.

I do keep inverts, however I've done some reading around and searching, and the general consensus seems to be that there is no consensus, but plenty of people seem to have been able to keep inverts in tanks using this brand of trace despite the copper (since it's chelated, I guess), so I'm willing to give it a try.

Thanks for all the help!


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