# Missing from dosing, found in TAPWATER???



## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

There is something missing from my dosing regime that is in my tapwater, and it is my limiting factor. I would like to know what it is, so that I can stop being limited.

Here is how I know this:
When I do a water change of 25% or more, my plants go grow-mania!! I have bubbles all over my tank from EVERY plant. Photosynthesis on STEROIDS!! I know it is NOT the temperature of the incoming water. I know it is not related to substrate disturbance.

Here are my specs:
75 gallon
Flourite/Laterite, Pressurized CO2, almost 4 wpg 6700/10000k PC
Wide variety of plants, most difficult L. Hippuroides, M. Quadrifolia, L. Peruensis, Didiplis Diandra
Dosing per EI recipe 
1 part CSM+B
1 part Kh2PO4
1 part K2SO4
3 parts KNO3

But I dose one mix every day - 1/4 tsp - Plus one capful of Flourish Iron. The dosing schedule calls for about twice the total I'm dosing every day, but when I went by the schedule I had massive algae problems. I suspect it's because I'm not heavily planted. So I adjusted down.

With everything that I'm doing right, I should have pearling and great things happening every day, not just after a water change. WHAT am I missing??

I pulled up the water report, and the only thing that jumps out at me is the tap has 40 ppm sulfate. I don't know if anything I'm dosing has sulfate. What am I doing wrong?? Please help me, I'm getting so frustrated!!


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

The reason for the false pearling, IE pearling after WC, I bet your glass, filter tubes pearl as well? The water you are introducing in oxygen rich, thats why you are seeing pearling. Your plants arent growing any faster with water changes.


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks bigstick, but NO.
I'm certain that it is not just oxygen. I'm not talking about just bubbles sticking to things. I'm talking about plants actively dispersing lots and lots of bubbles into the water. I can watch streams of bubbles from some of my faster growing plants, and watch bubbles grow on ferns and swords.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

K2SO4 has sulfur. That is what the S is. Whether this is in a form the plants can use is another question... 

How well dissolved is your pressurized CO2? How do you measure it? 
Could the tap water be bringing in a significant amount of CO2 that the plants can use for a few hours, then it is used up?


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

I get all my ferts from greenleaf aquariums. I would assume it is usable. 

My CO2 goes from the regulator to the inlet tube of my magnum 350 canister filter. I have 100% dissolution, until the CO2 accummulates inside the filter, which only happens when I tear down to clean. 

I don't actually measure the CO2. I have a drop checking but it doesn't work or something. When I put it in new it works for a while, then it starts reading too high, when it's not too high. Like today, it went yellow, so I took it out, and I now have it stuck to the outside and it's green. It should be blue outside. Don't know what's happening there.... Fish are happy, I'm happy!

Maybe I'll try turning it up tomorrow.


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## rjfurbank (Jan 21, 2008)

I agree w/ bigstick. Observed pearling is a function of the dissolved oxygen content of the water. At a given temperature and pressure the water can only dissolve a certain amount of oxygen gas. After this amount the water is saturated and additional oxygen cannot be dissolved and it comes out of solution and floats to the surface as a bubble.

The plants are always producing the same amount of oxygen--it's just a matter of how much oxygen is already dissolved in the water as to whether you observe pearling or not. That's why pearling is more readily seen at the end of the photoperiod or after a water change.


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

Ummm....OK, so why does this only happen during water changes? Your new water is loaded with oxygen.


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

@rjfurbank - 
So what you're saying is that the plants are producing the oxygen, but because the water from my tap has so much oxygen in it already, the products of photosynthesis can't disolve?

That explanation makes sense. How could I test it? Let my water change water sit out for a day in a bucket before adding it? Then if I notice the same phenomenon, I will need to examine further. I will try that next week.


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## ashappard (Jun 3, 2006)

there are meters which measure dissolved oxygen, if you want to put a number on it.
bigstick and rjfurbank are not steering you wrong. We've observed this for many years. 
While it is always possible that your tap contains something you do not dose, the most
likely explanation for what you describe is oxygen saturation after a water change.

additionally, if you want to measure growth of plants in a time period - you could harvest 
and measure dry weight. To determine if setup A is more productive than setup B, for example.


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

I think that could be it. That would also explain why it doesn't happen with my 2 gallons of top off every morning. That's just not enough oxygen to be saturated. I am satisfied that I understand what's happening, but I will still test it out because I have to find things out for myself. It's a weird thing about me!


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Bunnie1978 said:


> but I will still test it out because I have to find things out for myself. It's a weird thing about me!


...not weird, just a great scientific attitude!


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

I think I went about this question the wrong way. The question shouldn't have been why IS this happening at a water change, but rather why ISN'T happening all the time?


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## bigstick120 (Mar 8, 2005)

It doesnt matter how you word it. The answer is still above, same as what I and everyone else stated. Im not sure how else to make you understand.


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## Aquaticz (May 22, 2009)

Let me try...
When you do IE by the book you are over providing a supply of what plants need, so they do not run out. If you dose & have your C02 set properly you will have pearling daily. If you dose and do not have enough C02 then you are not providing an excess amout & will not have pearling. 

I think it worth mentioning so it is not taken for granted....the above pertains to a high light set up.

HTH


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

OK, thanks.
So, I am doing EI, but I don't do the whole dose, and I spread it out by dosing every day. I never really understood why the alternating. Maybe you could tell me?

I have CO2 set at about 2-3 bps. That is the amount i was advised is the top level I should be able to do without risking stress for my fish. I also have 100% dissolution and very little surface agitation. Just enough to keep the slime away.

Here's the latest pic, so you can see the amount of plants I have:









Do you think that sounds balanced? Any tweaking that you might suggest to get better growth? Not that unhappy, by the way. Just don't want to be wasteful, or miss some little thing that might make a difference.


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

By the way, I tested for Nitrates before dosing yesterday, at the very beginning of the photperiod (I dose first thing in the morning) and it was 10-15ppm. I know that Nitrate is not a limiting factor. I did my dose today without the KNO3 (I have the K in another one of the elements) and I'm going to test the N level again tomorrow before dosing. I want to see if what my plants are using compared to what is being produced (I have about 80 pleco juvies/fry in the tank.) More just scientific inquiry than anything else.


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## endgin33 (Jun 10, 2008)

My question to you is- Are you mixing your csm+b dosing with your macro dosing? If you are dosing everything daily you may have a problem there. Maybe I misunderstood your "daily dosing" program, but if you are mixing these two it may be the answer. The reason for the alternate daily dosing is that some of the macro's (I think its the phosphate) inhibit some of the micro's (chelated iron) and cause problems (iron precipitates out). I did this myself when I first started- mixed everything in one bottle so it would be easy... No Bueno... If the doses (micro and macro) are seperated by time you might be able to get away with it, but normally you want to feed the plants in the morning (before the lights come on) not feed late in the photoperiod (which would be how you might stagger Micros and Macros without interfering with one another). Again, I may have misunderstood your dosing, but that might explain certain things, like no pearling under normal conditions.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

Endgin33 explained the alternating days. Many who do EI dosing just dose the micros about an hour later. They do dose everything every day. If you start with 10-15 N BEFORE the day, AFTER you dose, I'm wondering what it is at the end of the day. Do you still have some in there? If you have BGA it's a sure sign that you need more Nitrate.

Dropcheckers - if it's green outside the tank then you don't have 4dkh water in your dropchecker. That would explain why it's yellow in your tank and your plants aren't pearling. If you have put 4 dkh water in there is it possible that you rinsed your drop checker with tap water and then added 4dkh water? Could it have a mixture of different waters in it? I have my dropcheckers stay on the more yellow side of green. I get as much CO2 as possible in my tank, while I watch my fish. If my fish are fine and drop checker is yellow, I aim for yellow. If my fish are fine only at lime green, then I aim for green. Then I keep it stable. Since my CO2 doesn't change, lights don't change, my biggest variable is plant growth. I need to add more ferts when plant mass grows and less after a major trim. That's the tricky part.


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## nfrank (Jan 29, 2005)

> Dosing per EI recipe
> 1 part CSM+B
> 1 part Kh2PO4
> 1 part K2SO4
> 3 parts KNO3


 Two important nutrients not menioned are calcium and magnesium. Both can become limited in softwater tanks . With faster growing plants, tap water replacement may not be sufficient source and more is needed using GH booster, or with home brews like plaster of paris+epsom salt or some other mix of Ca and Mg materials. If you have soft water, the water change may be helping to bring the GH up from near zero. IMO, the k2so4 is not needed, esp in soft water tanks.

However, i agree with the previous posters that dissoved O2 in the tap water raises and probably temporarily saturates the oxygen level in the tank and then any new O2 released by the plants appears as bubbles. This is more common in the winter when cold tap water has more dissoved O2. The water change also provides extra CO2, which the plants are taking advantage of.


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thansk everyone! 

I did do a test this morning, and I had 0 Nitrates. This was after 1 day of skipping dosing Nitrates. So, in one day, the 10-15ppm was used up. I dosed and got it up to 20ppm. I will test tomorrow before dosing to see if there's any left! If the amounts of ferts in the EI recipe are proportional this will help me figure out how much to do, since I'm just nervous about overdoing it. I didn't have a test before last weekend. I also am still figuring out how to adjust as my plants grow. Which they are. I actually have some bubbling today. But nothing like after a W/C.

I do have hard water coming from my tap, and I do not soften before putting it in my tank. I just let it trickle in with a python. A few drops of declor with it here and there.

Also, once in a while I do a capful of Flourish Comp. I realize it has things in it that aren't covered in EI, but I'm supposing that's what you're talking about Neil. Not often on that though.

Since I am getting advise from experts... I wonder if I might beg an off topic question. Is there any concensus on how much Nitrate is harmful to fish? Anywhere I can find expert articles about it? I ask becuase there is a local club here (most are cichlid keepers with NO plants) and in the forum discussions we've had, I am getting just ripped apart by all these die-hard fishkeepers that are "experts" at everything for 100 years, and they all think I'm this novice, incompetant fishkeeper, and they pity my fish because I dose nitrates. Why? Because I advised someone who has a persistant outbreak of BGA to stop doing water changes and let the nitrates build up a little. I also discussed ferts with the ONLY other person on the forum that has plants helping him fix his algae issues. 

They live under the assumption that nitrates are harmful to fish "even in small doses" and cause them not to breed.

Help me out? I trust you all to steer me in the right direction. Am I crazy? Are the levels of nitrates we try to manage for the optimum growth of our plants harmful to our fish? With 15 - 0 ppm fluctuations daily, is that stressful for them? Would it be stressful for any fish?


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## Bunnie1978 (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh, and about the dosing... to clear things up. I use dry ferts... I put the daily amount in a gallon jug, with a drop of declor, fill it up with cold water, and dump it in slowly. I have the iron mixed in there too. I get a little haze in the water right after byt it usually dissipates within an hour.


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## Tex Gal (Nov 1, 2007)

You should not mix your micros and macros. The haze is the FE precipitating out of the water. Plants can't use it in this form. You need to dose separately, waiting an hour between the two. Mine still precipitated even the next day. I dose extra iron. I ended up switching to EDPT Iron. It's great. No more precipitating! I still use the CSM+B, but not at the same time as my macros. 

It's my understanding that Nitrates are not harmful to fish. I dump tons of KNO3 in my 125g. If I don't I see my plants melting - almost before my very eyes! They suck up the stuff. That's why I asked about what your rates are at the end of the day. I have fish breeding all the time. If they didn't eat the eggs, I'd be in trouble. I had to get rid of a breeding pair of kribs because I was overrun! 
Many many hobbyists use EI dosing. Depending on the plants they dose more than the recommended. I know I do. If my plants need it, I dose it.

EI calls for these levels:
CO2 range 25-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5

The people you are talking about just don't know. They don't have plants. Plants use it up. You'd see all our fish dead if they were correct.
Just remember to do your w/c weekly.


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## Diana K (Dec 20, 2007)

Nitrates are stressful to fish at different levels depending on species and age of the fish. 
In general fry are more sensitive than mature fish. 
In an aquarium there may very well be other things accumulating that can stress the fish when the NO3 _from fish and their food_ is climbing. NO3 from fertilizer dosing is not also raising the level of fish hormones and possibly other wastes. But the need to dose hints that the plants are removing the NO3, but we need to remember the other wastes (fish hormones) are not being removed. Something in that complex web of life in a planted tank might be breaking down the fish hormones better than might happen in a non-planted tank, though. I hope so!

I try to keep the nitrates under 20 ppm. Depending on species, my fish look unhappy when the NO3 is somewhere between 20-40 ppm. 
I try not to let it get under 5 ppm, or else I am concerned about N deficiency in the plants. 
Most of my tanks run between 5-10 ppm with light dosing. (less than EI suggests)


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