# TeutonJon78's NPT Journal - 24g Nanocube



## TeutonJon78

So here is the start of my journal. The tank was setup before I moved for a year with EcoComplete and lots of plants (some doing well, some not, some algae problems but not out of control that often).

*Tank:* 24g JBJ Nanocube with the MSS surface skimmer

*Lighting:* stock 2x36W CFL (one 6700K, one 10000K). I'd like to get an over the tank fixture (or really a MH-I love the shimmering effect).

*Pump:* stock 290 GPH. I have a MaxiJet 900 I'm going to try replacing it with for less heat generation and better flow. The stock pump really craps out going through my output. For filtration, it has a large coarse foam filter and a smaller fine foam filter. It also comes with ceramic rings and bioballs, but I'm going to remove them once I have the soil going.

*Output:* Hydor Flo. I also have some LocLine spray bar parts I've been playing with, but not sure if I want to use them.

*Substrate:* Scott's Earthgro topsoil (NW regional I'm assuming) covered in EcoComplete. Here is the thread about how I  prepared the soil.

*Decor:*
Driftwood (that hard dark red gnarly root kind--been in the tank before)
Cliff Stones
Petrified Wood (I think...it at least looks like it)

*Other:* 150W Titanium heater, Ti grounding probe. I had DIY CO2 before, but I may not use it for the NPT tank. Either way, you can make a good cap out of these  Fourmost bulkhead adapters and the top to a 2L pop bottle (or whatever). The water here in Portland is around pH 6.4 and very soft. I'm probably going to add some crushed coral to the filter section to raise the buffering and hardness slightly.

*Flora:* From the old tank, the plants that survived the move are:
Microsorium pteropus (Java fern)
Nymphaea zenkeri (Tiger lotus, red and green)
Cryptocoryne wendtii (Wendtii crypt, red and green)
Cladophora aegagropila (moss ball)

It's a long story of what happened to the rest of the plants, but I lost a huge amount including a nice Red Rubin sword, Rotala Indica, and a ton of anubias. The plants that did survive has all died back to the roots and have now recovered.

I ordered some new plants from AquaSpot World and am waiting for them to arrive.
Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia'
Aponogeton ulvaceus
Crinum calamistratum
Cyperus helferi
Echinodorus tenellus (Dwarf Chain Sword)
Hemianthus callitrichoides 'Cuba' (HC)
Hemianthus micranthemoides (Pearl Grass)
Vallisneria americana var natans
Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid Weed)

*Fauna:* All I have from the move are snails. I was removing them like mad until I decided to go NPT, now I'm letting the babies be.


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## TeutonJon78

Just for Historical reference, this is how the tank look the first time I set it up (there were several rescapes before it got torn down). The tank seems to run the best when I ignored it completely and didn't fertilize or anything. When I messed with it, the algae started. That is my main motivation to go NPT.


And here is how it looks in it's temporary setup while it was waiting to setup. But you can see the rocks and such. Unfortunately, since I put the pertified wood in, the Tiger lotus hasn't been very happy, so I don't know if it is reacting poorly to the stone, or the fact that it got disturbed while crushing, or the fact that nutrients may finally be running out since no dirt and no fish and no real food going in. I've never had that good of luck with the tiger lotus though.


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## TeutonJon78

Here are the plans for the aquascaping:

Background:
Aponogeton ulvaceus
Crinum calamistratum
Cyperus helferi
Vallisneria americana var natans

Midground:
Microsorium pteropus (Java fern) on driftwood
Nymphaea zenkeri (Tiger lotus, red and green)
Cryptocoryne wendtii (Wendtii crypt, red and green)
Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia'
Hemianthus micranthemoides (Pearl Grass)
Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid Weed)

Foreground:
Cladophora aegagropila (moss ball)
Echinodorus tenellus (Dwarf Chain Sword)
Hemianthus callitrichoides 'Cuba' (HC)

I know it is a large variety of species, but not sure what will grow in my water and in the NPT setup I have. People seem to have had success with most of the species. I'm a little worried about the Vals in my water, but I will have to see how they go. I may add some floating plants, but not sure.

I'm pretty happy with the foreground and background, but the midground is what's leaving me high and dry. Hopefully at least one of the stem plants will work well to fill in around the driftwood and such.


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## TeutonJon78

Regarding the animals, that is an area totally up for grabs at the moment.

I want to get some Galaxy Rasboras, but I also don't want to further endanger them (plus they cost a lot for their size). Other thoughts are "lots" of little fish or 15+ cardinals or a few bigger fish (like Kribs or rams or some more aggressive pairing fish).

For cleaning crew, I usually use Ottos, but I'm tempted to find some Nerite snails since they seem to be finding good use for algae control and leaf cleaning.

Any suggestions for fish? I'm looking for good color and schooling.


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## TeutonJon78

OMG...what am I doing? Am I actually adding mud to my aquarium?

I have about 1" of nice dirt/mud.


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## TeutonJon78

Here is the EcoComplete over the dirt. It's a little over 1" in the front and maybe 1.5" in the back. Since it's about half of the total EC I have sitting around, it would make it around 20lbs.

 

And here is the first fill of the tank. I'm not running the filter yet, but I'm waiting for it to settle a little bit. A but murky but I expected that. It already had some muddy water in it and I also had to add a little more dirt that hadn't been rinsed to nearly the same standard as the other bucket.


My plants should be in the USPS truck today, so I'll be taking pictures of them when they get here. I will probably let them just sit in a tub for the night to space out again and plant them tomorrow (plus, make sure there isn't any thing I don't want hitching a ride.

I'm seriously hoping that this ends up with a lower maintenance tank, because the setup has been a lot of work. Granted, I created a lot of my work myself. I could have just put the dirt in if I didn't care about clearer water or getting the sticks and rocks out of it.


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## TeutonJon78

and oh yes...feel free to comment or add suggestions. Otherwise, I'll just keep adding as things progress.


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## TeutonJon78

My plant order from Aquaspot made it in today. I placed the order last Thrusday/Friday. The plants shipping overseas and cleared USDA and were shipped from Seattle to Portland on Thursday. I got then on Sat around 3:30. So from order cut-off to receiving, it was about 8 days.

Here is the box as I got it. Inside the box was a lot of packing material to cushion the plants. The whole order was then wrapped up together and a big bag. Each of the individual plants was also sealed and labeled in their own bag, which I thought was nice. It also probably helps them pass USDA inspection. I don't know if they were bagged in Singapore though, or Seattle.
  

Here are close-ups of each of the individually bagged plants and their quantities.
        

And here are the plants all spread out to get some air before getting planted (which should be done tomorrow).
 

So, here is my quick analysis of my order with Aquaspot:
*pro:* good selection and generally good prices, individual bagged and labeled plants (which from a previous order from a different vendor can be very helpful if you order similar looking plants), overall good health and root growth, good customer support so far
*cons:* delivery date can be up in the air since it's coming from Singapore and has so many steps to clear.

Two of the plants had a little problems. The Aponogeton ulvaceus smelled like dead lettuce and lost most of it's leaves when I removed it from the bag. That didn't really surprise me that much since the plant has such thin, delicate, wavy leaves. The bulb looked really healthy and it had a few young study leaves that survived. One of the HC bundles was pretty dead, but the other once came in seemingly quite excellent condition. The bagged plants were off a stem on 2 of the orders, but each one also had a few that "could" count as 2, so no big deal.
 

Now, the one thing I've now found from ordering from 2 on-line vendors, is that sometimes (usually?), the plants are smaller than you would like. But they are plants and designed to grow, so not necessarily a bad thing. Particularly, the Echinodorus tenellus was smaller than I expected. And for the price, the Proserpinaca palustris was WAY smaller than I expected. I would like to note that both seems in excellent health however.

So far I would order again from Aquaspot again and not from the other vendor. Good job, Aquaspot. For such a young company, you seem to be doing good work.

Now for the hassle of planting a zillion little, itty-bitty plants (HC and E. tellenus).


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## littleguy

Posting... too... fast... can't... keep... up....

Tank's gonna be awesome. I'm enjoying watching the progress. I want one of those cubes....


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## littleguy

I'm thinking of placing an order to Aquaspot in the next week or two. It's nice to see how they ship, and what their quantities look like.


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## TeutonJon78

littleguy said:


> I want one of those cubes....


Well, the lure of the all-in-one cubes can be great. But they do have some limitations. I personally would not buy another JBJ one. There are others I like better, but all of them have flaws. In my opinion, getting something with standard dimensions is crucial. If you ever want to but things like new lighting later, it can be next to impossible to find anything that fits.

With the NPT tank, I almost want to pop out the back wall and reclaim the extra 3 gallons of space hiding back there. It is really only hiding too much sponge and a powerhead/pump. Of course, I have the rest of the stuff back their like heaters and stuff, but I wouldn't mind the extra space back.

Anyway, now I'm just rambling. They do look very nice though.


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## Aquaspot

littleguy said:


> I'm thinking of placing an order to Aquaspot in the next week or two. It's nice to see how they ship, and what their quantities look like.


We have to pack the plants according to what USDA requires. Everything is bagged in Singapore and trans-shipped in USA.

We always recommend our customers to take the Overnight shipping option, especially if the plant order is going to be significant. Priority can sometimes be unreliable.


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## TeutonJon78

I would agree with that statement. Since I figured the order would be coming into Seattle and I'm in Portland, Express mail doesn't buy that much in time saving over Priority. Plus, my order wasn't that huge (just to me  ).


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## TeutonJon78

Aquaspot said:


> We have to pack the plants according to what USDA requires. Everything is bagged in Singapore and trans-shipped in USA.


well, it may be a hassle to do that, but in my opinion, I think it adds a lot to the professionalism of the order. Too bad it can't be bagged at the trans-shipper though. The order I received from the other vendor just showed up as this giant mass of plants all rolled up in a wet newspaper.

I personally much prefer nicely bagged and labeled plants.


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## Aquaspot

TeutonJon78 said:


> well, it may be a hassle to do that, but in my opinion, I think it adds a lot to the professionalism of the order. Too bad it can't be bagged at the trans-shipper though. The order I received from the other vendor just showed up as this giant mass of plants all rolled up in a wet newspaper.
> 
> I personally much prefer nicely bagged and labeled plants.


It can be bagged at the trans-shipper's point. But it will be more work and more handling of the plants. We do not stress the plants from excessive handling if we don't have to, so we take care of the individual packaging in Singapore and the plants ship better this way.


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## tefsom85

John, are you willing to tell us more about the other shipper?
Will


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## treesmcdonald

Less about shippers more about tank! lol. Where are the pics of the finished scape?


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## TeutonJon78

i agree...this thread is about the tank, not the shipper per se. Oh, the scape pictures won't be coming until tomorrow. No more hands in water for me today. Plus, I want to let the plants have a little time to breathe before they meet the tweezers. BHWAHAHAA.

It has been planned out in my head since the plant order came. I just have a harder time deciding about the hardscape. I like the 3 rocks I have, but not sure if they all fit. I also really love my driftwood arch covered in Java fern, but it's not that big and I want more driftwood in there. So do I use the bigger driftwood and the smaller one, or try to transplant the ferns to the bigger piece. I do have some plantlets I could attach to the bigger piece, but it would be awhile before it's covered like the smaller arch. Decisions decisions decisions.

The back of the tank is planned: C. helferi along the back left under the filter intake grate and towards the center. The vals along the back wall (to grow up and along the surface. The Aponotogen in the back center and the crinum at the far back right wall under the filter input. It can spread all weird out of that corner of the tank then. C. helferi might get strewn about as a front-back/back-mid layer as well.

The stem plants will join my teeny tiger lotus in the middle land. The plan for the arch is to have in the front left. Behind it would be the crypts (which recovered VERY nicely from all their abuse and growing in an essentially sterile tank (just dead plant gunk and snails for fertilizer). The front of the arch will be the E. tellenus. The front right will the cliff stone surrounded by the HC in a little pasture motif.

Granted, this is what I picture. Who knows what will grow well and what won't and what will spread faster and what won't. I may have to rely on what I can find locally for the little fill-ins. 


---------------------------------------------------------
tefsom85: no I won't discuss the other vendor publicly. I will praise good vendors and experiences. I don't want to bad-mouth them, as business practices can change (my other order was about a year ago) and it can be isolated instances. Plus, it wasn't a horrible experience, it just left a sour taste in my mouth. PM me if you want more info.


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## TeutonJon78

ok...planting is done. yay. It looks pretty good, but a bit cloudy.

I'll have pictures and more text later, but now I'm just taking a break. I was having a "why can't I plant anything day", so my partner got stuck helping (it's "our" tank anyway). 

But suffice it to say, I think it looks pretty good right now. Much better than my other setups.

oh, and one quick piece....probably never using HC again unless it grows really well or just looks really great. It seemed ok to plant without water in the tank, but I wanted to move a piece once more water was in it, and they just became a NIGHTMARE.


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## TeutonJon78

So, here are the pictures. This was tank as it started in the morning after draining the water. I'm surprised by the mixing of the EcoComplete and the soil. A lot of the little wood pieces have mixed into the EC and sit at the top layer. They aren't floating up. Actually, I kind of like the look. The soil and EC give a very riverbed bottom kind of look that wasn't quit met with the EC alone. However, I still think I like the look of Flourite better. I will probably be using that when I do a total rescape and/or buy a new tank (no in the immediate future for either). The picture won't look much different than the original one of the substrate going in.


Here is the hardscape of the rocks. I really like the little channel between the cliff stones in the front right. The driftwood is lacking in this picture because they are covered in Java ferns and need to stay wet longer. There is a little stump looking piece that has ferns on the top that is newly created and my older driftwood arch that is totally covered in ferns (new leaves do the moving fiasco). anywho, the stump goes in the front left edge angle to "cut off" the bowed glass and the arch will go in the middle of the tank with the arch between the two different stone layers.


Here is the final tank shot. Nice white cloudy water. I'm not sure if it's from a bacterial bloom or not, but that's what I'm guessing. Could just be particulate from the soil. It hasn't shown any signs of lessing by this evening, so no pictures other than this one.


I don't remember if I mentioned it already, but I was having a bad planting day. Only the E. tenellus would stay put for me. Oh well, it's all in now. I have to do a little rearranging tomorrow morning to get some plants more vertical and spaced a little better, but I'm pretty much done.

Since you can't see it very well in the picture (and I haven't done a layout picture, I'll descibe the layout. In the back left around all sides of the petrified rock, I have the C. helferi. Along the back I have the V. americanas var natans. In the middle of that grove I have the A. ulvaceus which is the dead center behind the arch. In the back right is the C. calamistratum with some E. tenellus around it and some of the M. micranthemoides.

For the midground, which was a huge pain and I sat and stared for awhile before picking it out. The crypts are at the left, Tiger lotus bulbs in the middle and the arch slightly behind them. Then comes the A. reineckii and then the P. palustris (ver short and probably not in the picture).

The foreground has the E. tenellus around the stump and the HC around the all but the pack of the cliff stones (because the stem plants are there).

Lessons learned: always plant HC with as little water as possible and leave it alone forever more.  Midgrounds are the hard part. Also, EC is so nice to plant in, even with the soil. You can just jam your tweezers in and it closes up the hole as you pull out.

However, I forgot to make a slight grade with the EC before I started, so the level is flat across and therefore much deeper in the front than I wanted. I don't know if the roots will make it all the down there for the smaller plants. At least the nutrients should work their way up.

So, that's it for today. Planted and lit.


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## treesmcdonald

Looking good. I especially like the left side with the C. helferi and petrified wood. I'll be watching to see the scape grow in. opcorn:

I am not a big HC fan. I finally got mine planted and a few weeks after it started to root in my cories decided to dig it up. So every day I would replant what they dug up. Finally I just gave up and let my filter eat it.


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## TeutonJon78

Well, if Aquaspot had had Utricularia graminifolia available, I would have gotten that instead. It seems like more of a fun plant. But they didn't. 

If the HC fails, I'll be ordering the UG from the forum members that sell it and try that out. Overall, I wanted to have a bunch of plants that look like grasses of varying heights with a few little flourishes of color/texture/shape sprinkled about. 

And I found out that the cloudy water was some suspended dirt, so I'll be doing a partial water change after I get the slight rework done this morning.


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## TeutonJon78

*Day 1*

Well, I did my minor replants today. No too much. I moved a few C. helferi and replanted the surprising small amount of HC that had decided to go for some air. I did do two partial water changes of about 33% each. The water is a lot less cloudy, but still some. Depending on how it looks with the light off, I might do another round tomorrow.


Here are some more detailed shots. Obviously it will be better once the water clears up and I can get some real pictures. The view through the arch. It's kind of hard to see since there is green all around it, but look for the brown part.


And one of my favorite pics so far....looking down the HC canyon. 


I'm very happy with the rocks I found for the tank. It's hard to find good little rocks for nano tanks without getting "custom" and overpriced ADA stones. I wasn't even planning on having rocks originally, but I found some fun ones and decided to go ahead with them.


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## TeutonJon78

Well, I got off my butt (or I'm actually procrastinating on other stuff I should be doing), but here is the tank layout. It's pretty close to scale including all of the mechanical components.


Questions for the crowd:
1) anyway to clear up cloudy water...it's still doing it
2) should I remove some of the filter foam?

The tank is mainly designed for SW stuff. I think I'm going to remove the fine foam filter altogether. This still leaves a lot of coarse foam filter. I hate having the back of the tank now, because it's so much wasted space, but at the same time, it helps keep the main tank looking nice and pretty. If I could remove it without permanently altering the tank I would. I would like that extra depth back and more room for plants (and to be honest, fish). Of course, the lighting would be right back there at all with the setup either.

Oh well. That's why I don't really want another all-in-one (especially if I like the NPT method once it gets going).


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## littleguy

I would try turning off the powerhead for awhile and see if the cloudy particles settle out.


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## TeutonJon78

that is what I had thought about last night/this morning. I'm trying it now.


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## 01krisp10

I can't wait to see it clear up. I'm thinking of going the Earthgro/EcoComplete way as well...


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## treesmcdonald

Once it settles you can try to siphon most of the junk up and then turn the filter back on. I like having mechanical filtration on my NPT it keeps the floating junk in the water to a minimum. I feed enough to keep my fish, shrimp, snails, plants and filter happy. Which is a lot! lol. 

Nice diagram of the set up. I'm keeping an eye on your C. helferi. I might have to get some its very pretty.


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## TeutonJon78

I shudder to think what would happen if I tried to siphon anywhere near the HC. 

*scary*


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## treesmcdonald

TeutonJon78 said:


> I shudder to think what would happen if I tried to siphon anywhere near the HC.
> 
> *scary*


I had forgotten about that darn HC. Don't even look at it! I really hope you have more luck with it that I did. I really have no patience for plants that want to die.


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## TeutonJon78

so, I did a little water parameter check last night.

pH=7.1
KH = ~3-4 d (more towards 4)
GH = ~3-4 d (more towards 4)

So, the hardness is better than I thought, but not really that high. 3 degrees should be enough that I don't have to add anything, right?

I haven't added my crushed coral yet. Oh yes...these measurements were taken toward the end of the day/photoperiod.

Photoperiod = 10 AM - 9:30 PM
Daylight = no direct sun (back of tank is coated anyway), but the room is full of windows, so lots of indirect light. But, it is Portland, so sun is still limited this time of year.


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## TeutonJon78

Question for you forumites----there are 3 foam filters in my tank. Two largish coarse foam, and one fine foam. I currently have the fine foam out. Would it be better to take out one coarse foam and leave the fine foam, or take even one of the coarse ones out and leave only one?

I guess I get the idea of NPT, just no always the how-to yet. And like others, I'm not sure I want to just remove all of my filtration type stuff.

and curses....I want to add some fish. I had the dirt mostly submerged (wet and in a bucket) for a week or so before I setup, so I'm guessing my 3 week ammonia spike is only 2 weeks away....then fish.


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## 01krisp10

From reading Ecology of the Planted Aquarium and reading on the forums, it seems like the best choice is to leave out all fine filtration. So, my guess would be to leave the more porous material filters. The AquaClear powerhead quick filter that Diana uses (I have it, but haven't used it) is pretty fine though, but very small. Well thats my two cents...


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## TeutonJon78

well, after 2 days of no filter running, no big change in cloudiness. There wasa nice buildup of surface scum though. So, it's back on now. Need to keep the water flowing. I did add a piece of filter floss over the coarse foam section in order to get the gunk out. It seems to be helping, but slowly.

Plant update...some seem to not be doing so well. The mermaid weed looks a little worse for wear. The HC has been kind of melty and thinning out. But it's not floating, so I'm hoping it's just the emersed leaves falling off and the roots will make a nice comeback.


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## TeutonJon78

The tank is finally starting to clear. I guess the filter floss helped (or just time). Whatever.

I measured my tap water, and it seems to be around 1 dKh and 1 dGh. Not so much. So something in the tank is making it slightly higher. Anyway, since that's still super soft, I added 1 tsp of crushed coral in panty hose to the back of the tank. 

At least the hidden chambers let you do some thinks like stick panty hose in your tank without it being visible from the viewing area. of course, so would a canister filter.

Also, the plants march on. HC has seemed to stop melting. The Crinium has a little yellow on it's leaves and some of the C. helferi has unhappy tips. The mermaid weed isn't doing so hot, but hopefully it's just getting used to the tank water and switching leaf forms. The crypts are in full-fledged melt as expected since they got moved. But, now with less leaves, I was able to plant them better in the substrate.

Brining me to substrate, I'm just going to reiterate how nice EcoComplete can be to plant in. Granted, I've only tried in standard gravel before, but you can plant stem plants and smaller plants so nicely. No soil came up with the pull and replant of the crypts.

Pics coming soon once the water is done being polished.

Overall, seems to be doing ok with all "problems" being somewhat expected, although still unfortunate. I wish it would all just grow right form the second they were planted.


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## littleguy

TeutonJon78 said:


> I wish it would all just grow right form the second they were planted.


No worries - a month from now everything will be growing great and this blip will seem like ancient history :mrgreen:. And a year from now.... Besides, nothing worth having comes easy, right!

I'm enjoying watching the progress... opcorn:


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## TeutonJon78

Oh, I know it will grow back...just hard watching it do a "slow death" (and some "quick death" right now). 

Of course, now I want to get some fish in there. :bounce:

Ammonia just measured at 0 again. The water is FINALLY almost clear. It still has the yellow tint, but that's expected due to my bottle test and the fact that the driftwood is still leaking tannins after a year. The water kept going yellow before I tore the tank down to go NPT 2 weeks ago.


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## treesmcdonald

TeutonJon78 said:


> I wish it would all just grow right form the second they were planted.


If you master that you better let the rest of us know your secrets!


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## TeutonJon78

So, the water is clear and as soon as imageshack stops being broken for me, I'll get some pics up.

Today's water parameters
4 dKH, 4-5 dGH (stupid test kit...when did the water turn green as it could be up to 7 dGH), 0 NO2, 0 NO3

Water looking good overall. Plants...um. not so. Well some of them...most are looking fine overall.


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## TeutonJon78

Finally...I got upload working. I think it was my problem. So here are pictures from day 6 (2-24-2007)

Here is a picture of the room the tank is in. There are more windows than this, but these 3 are the main ones. And before anyone reminds me I should have put it in front of the window, the tank has black coating around the side and it just leads to a the "filter" compartments anyway. So, being Portland, no always a lot of sun, but the tank will get lots of indirect light.


Here is the tank from the front, left, and right sides.
  

Close-ups of the current problem plants: P. palustris (mermaid weed) and HC. THe HC seems to be doing better overall though. No more melting...now for the growing.
 

And here is a clearer picture of the driftwood arch. 

Now, I noticed my Aponotogen bulb wasn't planted well, so I fixed that, but I uprooted a val which got noticed on Sunday and fixed. From the few plants I've had to fix, it seems that they are all growing new roots. Not tons of growth, but new growth. I'm also not sure if the Crinum is planted deep enough, but I've tried to get it deeper and it seems hard to do without potentially breakingn the bulb/root by grinding it deeper into the substrate.

So, there you go....day 6 growth 2 days too late. I also need to get new CFL bulbs...these are a little old.


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## TeutonJon78

nothing special today...remeasured hardness parameters,
6 dKH
4 dGH


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## TeutonJon78

Alrighty...here are today's "fun" facts.

1. NH3/NH4 = 0ppm, NO2=0ppm, N03=5-10ppm. The nitrates make sense since I dosed a little KN03 and put some fish food in a few days ago. It probably was higher.
2. I'm declaring the Mermaid's weed dead. It's just been polluting the water column. If I find some more locally, I'll try it again, but what I had this time just didn't make it for whatever reason.
3. The A. reineckii isn't doing so hot either now. It was growing then suddenly flipped started doing a little melting.
4. Crypts continuing to melt and be all over the place but leveling off now.
5. C. helferi seems to be doing pretty well. A few brown tips, but nothing else.
6. The vals aren't doing so hot. The one that came up a few days ago was starting to get new roots, so maybe they are just adapting slowly from the Singapore water. I really want them to do well, as it was one of the plants I knew I wanted. For reference, the background plants were the ones I wanted. Everything else was kind of playing with new species. Of course, I haven't had any of the species in the tank right now.
7. E. tenellus seems to be doing ok. a few plantlets aren't happy, but the majority are doing good. I keep having a feeling that they are the verge of good growth.
8. Everything else...nothing much to report. Either no further growth, or some slight die-back.
9. I love it when the soil burps. I'll touch it somewhere and all the sudden tons of bubbles come out of somewhere else. And it just happens on it own as well. And to make sure it's not H2S, I've been smelling them. No alcohol or rotten egg smells. Just smells like dirt and plants and pond...like it should.
10. oops..I forgot one weird thing. There has been some dieback of a small patch of my Java fern arch. It's just one little patch. Very strange. Unless it's just growing so fast and without some of the nutrients it needs.
11. and silly me thought I had killed all the snails. What did I find on the glass today but about 4 young ones. Unfortunately, they look like plain pond snails and not ramshorns. I wish I hadn't gone jihad on the ramhorns.
12. a little bit of algea, and mostly on the glass, but just a tiny, puny amount.

Well, the dirt has been wet/submerged for about 3 weeks now and the tank has been setup for about 2 weeks now. It's time for fish.   
The water parameters have been stable and no ammonia at all from the soil. So, like Walstad recommends before adding fish, I did a nice big water change. About 75%. Still used the plate to disperse the flow and not disturb the soil, although it probably doesn't matter with the biofilms in place. Plus, in a big way, you need the fish for the plants to work right.

So, I'm thinking of getting a pair of German rams for the tank and some friends. Friends would be Cardinal tetras, maybe some pencil fish, some dwarf cories (actually their cousin species). I'm not sure about ottos. I like them and planned on them, but they are just so finicky. I like the rams because I'd like to watch them parent I have some nice rocks for them to breed on.

I'm also going to get some floating plants tomorrow. I have a chance to get some frogbit I think, which is what I want, but if not, then I'll go for water lettuce.

Question for the audience: I tested my rocks in the tank to make sure they were inert. I poured white vinegar over them and no reaction. Plus, they were all bought at (good) aquarium stores, so they should know what they are buying as well. But, my water seems to pick up hardness that isn't in the tap. Is it possible for my EcoComplete to be making the water harder? I know my crushed coral I added would have some effect, but I noticed it before that was in. Some gravel did that as well.

My thought on the matter is that everything I had (gravel, EcoComplete, filters) before I moved here was on Chicago water. For those of you that don't know, it's like liquid calcium/lime. It's very hard and leaves nice waterspots everywhere. My pH was about 7.6 out of the tap or so. Could my EC have stored alot of those ions and is now releasing them back into the water? If so, then I might get a crash at some point if I remove the crushed coral. Time will tell.

And now I'll stop rambling on todays post.


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## littleguy

I have read that to truly test whether a rock will harden water, you need to test with a stronger acid - like muriatic acid. Vinegar isn't a very strong acid will only fizzle when you put it on the very worst offending rocks (like crushed coral).

But anywho.... The packaging on Eco-complete does advertise that it provides Ca and Mg... I'm not sure I understand your concerns regarding a crash?

Looking good, despite the few casualties!


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## TeutonJon78

The crash concern is because of Portland notoriously soft water. When the plants start to photosynthesize, I think that drops the pH (or does it raise it?). Either way, a little crushed coral will add enough KH to buffer the water and a little GH to make it a little harder. And I worry about crash for the fish. That would be a real pH crash, not a "fake" CO2 one.

I've just been noticing that my tank has been going higher without the crushed coral. But, rumors abound that EcoComplete only has enough built in materials to last a little while. And it's 1.5 years old at this point. But, it could have refilled on my old tapwater.

And I had read you can really test it with a stronger acid. Alas, I don't have any and not really going to buy any just for this. Now...if only I could get a little clean sample out of my stomach.......

The real concern (or nag) is that the tank--before it was resetup--was doing pretty well. I added the cliff stone and nothing changed. I added the petrified wood-like rock, and the tiger lotii went to hell. Now, it could very be that they got damaged with the rocks (which the one that totally melted did). The others showed a little damage but were then fine. It's just my overactive mind nagging me on it.

Either way....FISH DAY!!!!


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## Sherri W

I hadn't noticed that you were in Portland - great to see a neighbor here. 

I'll be watching your tank progression (and water sagas) with interest. I don't adjust the hardness in my tank, so I can't keep any large snails. The shells eventually dissolve away. 

Good choice with the rams and tetras. I always read about about people losing 50% or more of the more sensitive tetras. I've never lost a single one and attribute it to the water. I can assure you its not my fishkeeping skills.

Good luck and please keep up the updates.


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## TeutonJon78

I had good luck with tetras, even in my old hardwater. Until the holocaust--I got some Petsmart fish that looked fine and had been in the store and brought them home and had a massive die-off of most but the stupid Petsmart Lemon Tetras. And I ended up not even like lemon tetras. Bah. my little flock of 7 cardinals went down to 1. But that cardinal was super strong. I had "him" for almost 2 years before moving (and sending him to a LFS to avoid having to move.


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## TeutonJon78

and oh yes...I remembered my other question for the audience. While the tank was in the interim setup, my photoperiod was like 6 hours (maybe 7). And now it's 11.5 hours. Could this longer length be too much for the plants right now in their adjusting phase? Do they need more "rest" to acclimate faster?


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## TeutonJon78

Well, thanks a local FLS, I now have some nice Frogbit to put in the tank. They let me have it for a wonderful price.  

Now, I also got 12 nice cardinal tetras. Yay!!! I still plan on one German ram pair and maybe some Aspidoras pauciradiatus.

But the question remains...do I get more fish now, or do I wait until a week or so and make sure I still don't have any ammonia and such? That lady at the store wouldn't take me word that the tank would be OK since it has a lot of plants (I didn't even mention using dirt). Plus, I have plenty of decaying plant matter and food to have provided some food to bacteria.

*So...what kind of fish load can an NPT tank once you start planting?* I know it should never be above moderate anyway.


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## bpimm

Give it a week with the cardinals and watch your ammonia level, if it doesn't spike then add more fish. as for the stocking level, in a new tank just watch your ammonia level it will tell you what the tank can handle but I would start slowly as the plants get established. a struggling plant won't consume as much ammonia as a happily growing one. 

Brian


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## TeutonJon78

yeah, that's my plan anyways. Not my first tank, so I know about cycling and such. Just first time through with a NPT tank.


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## bpimm

However with the NPT it's more about letting the plants get established to handle the ammonia load than the true bacterial cycle a fish only tank goes through. which I'm sure you know, just a clarification for the newbies who may be reading. 

Brian


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## TeutonJon78

ah...I actually forgot that people might be following my thread who haven't been doing plants for long and learning. Oops.

The lady at the store was almost mean about it. I'm glad she was looking out for the fishes well being, but I'm not a child with his first aquarium. It was frustrating.

*end rant*

So, the frogbit is in floating around. I've have lug and not good luck with Frogbit. I've had it a tank in the past, and it kind of melted away. I've had better luck with water lettuce, but it gets so dang sprawly in the tank and there isn't much room from water surface to lights in these cubes.

The fish seem to be doing well. They've adjusted and had their first meal. I'll be checking for ammonia later today. I do find it funny that some of the plants have already started to perk up, most noticeably the red tiger lotus.

The weird Java fern issue is starting to spread slightly. I should probably post a picture. It could just be too much light for them and not enough nutrients in the water for the past two weeks. The leaves I have pulled out are dark green and transparent. Which unfortunately, gives algae a chance to set it.

*begin rant* This tank really does annoy me sometimes. Anytime I try to play with the filter flow, it just makes me angry. And the stock pump is a MAJOR POS!!!! I thought i remember the company saying it was 23W or so and claims 295 GPH. Well, I was looking at the box in the garage as I walked by yesterday, and it's 25W. So no big surprise my water is always around 76-78 without a heater. It's ok when it's cold, but it will get hot in the summer. If I didn't have the AC on in Chicago, it would hover around 80 most of the summer. Plus is loud and has a nice grindy noise to it.

So began the saga of changing the powerhead. I got a MaxiJet 1200 for 290 GPH. Well, with the Hydor Flo attached, water was millimeters from squirting out of the FRONT of the tank. A slightly better pump. So I tried the MJ900 for 230 GPH. In the tank, but still would have been constantly splashing the light cover with water. So I said--lets get some a powerhead with flow control this time and stop buying pumps.

Anyway, I got the AquaClear 30 (old 301) and put that in today. It's 8W and 172 GPH max. At the max setting, it was about equal to what the JBJ stock pump was putting out for 25W and a supposed 295 GPH. JBJ did replace the pump in the next revision of the tank wiht came out 6 months after they introduced. I'm running the original one.
*end rant*

Anyway, the AquaClear 30 is pretty good. I did reduce the flow down to 2/7 of what's allowed. I can post that info later, but it probably around 100-120 GPH. So, my current filter setup is:

surface skimmer into back of tank with 2 coarse foam (about 3"x4"x8" each) that fill the first compartment. The middle compartment has my nylon with 1 tsp crushed coral for buffering, and the final compartment has the heater, grounding probe, and AquaClear 30. I'm still using the hydor flo. I have removed the fine foam block as well as the bioballs and ceramic rings.

Lessons learned -- put fish in as soon as you have zero ammonia from the soil. I think I might have hindered my plant growth by not having them in there before. I might have been able to save the mermaids weed. Of course, I might not have as well. It started to melt like the 2nd day it was in there.


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## TeutonJon78

*continue rant* :boxing: :boxing: :boxing: 
And while I'm ranting about the tank...I've never liked the lighting setup. Bad reflectors (essentially worthless).

*end rant*

What's the opinion of the foumites...leave both coarse foam pieces, or take one out? From past experiences when cleaning the full set of sponges:

Coarse sponge 1 catches all the particulate matter and gets mulm build up.
coarse spongs 2 gets mulm buildup
fine spongs (already out) got tons of mulm buildup.

I want to give the plants enough ammonia, but since some of them are slow growers, I don't want to pollute water.


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## TeutonJon78

and I just double checked on the abilities of the Aquaclear pump from Hagen.

AC30 can go from 127-175 GPH.
AC50 can go from 200-270 GPH.

So, I'm probably running around 140 GPH right now.


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## bpimm

TeutonJon78 said:


> The lady at the store was almost mean about it. I'm glad she was looking out for the fishes well being, but I'm not a child with his first aquarium. It was frustrating.


Don't ya love that, gettin grilled by the pimple faced kid that has at least 1 Month of experience when you had tanks before they were born...

In my NPT's with continuous water change my nitrates can get down to unmeasurable levels. I had a "LFS Expert" tell me that my water sample was tap water. I was returning their fish that didn't make it out of the bag alive. it never touched my water but they still had to test it and tell me it was tap water. I haven't been back to that store since.


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## TeutonJon78

Well, I do legitimately think this lady knew what she was talking about. I've been in fish stores before where they never mention cycling. But she doesn't really understand planted tanks, and definitely not NPT tanks. Her main comment was "plants don't eliminate a cycle, they just help with it". While technically true, a heavily planted tank doesn't need the cycling. Of course, like we've been discussing, it's still better to add fish slowly in case the plants aren't uptaking everything.


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## TeutonJon78

ah, so the news of the day.

at 10AM today, NH3/NH4 was still 0ppm after fish being in tank for 1.5 days.

The plants are really starting to perk up now. I hope it's not too late for some of them (mostly the stem plants). The Aponotogen bulb has 3 nice leaves starting to grow from it.

Only bad news is the weird Java fern issue is getting worse. I don't know what's on there. I removed a bunch of the leaves that I could.

And the bad news about the fish....the dreaded ICH. Am I surprised? not really. they came from a LFS. Am I still disappointed? yes.

Of course, I know how to treat ich as I've done it enough time. I use the raise the temperature gig to 87ish and let it be there for 2-3 weeks (more towards 3). I would start now, but since I'll be getting more fish come Friday or when the NH3 is still zero (which ever comes later), I'll just treat everyone at the same time. I've seen lots of Rams with really bad ich, so if I get them, might as well put them in the jacuzzi as well. And I know that most plants are fine with it as well as cardinals. Ah...sometime past bad experience can be helpful.


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## TeutonJon78

*15 days plants, 3 days fish*

9AM NH3/4 reading = 0ppm (YAY!!! Take that LFS lady).

Here is a current whole tank shot with the 12 Cardinal Tetras.


Here is a shot of the weird Java fern issue...I'm just so confused by it.


And here are the good growth shots of the day: Frogbit (two most pieces are at the filter input), good growth from the A. ulvaceus, a much perked up Tiger Lotus, and E. tenellus starting to grow
   

The HC that hasn't melted is a nice green and starting to grow some...now I just need it to spread. The H. micranthemoides looks bad in the middle of the stems, but the tips are growing bright green and throwing down some roots. The A. reineckii seems to be starting to grow now as well. The vals are still in limbo. I think they are starting to recover, but that could just be wishful thinking and hope. At least I'm not seeing tips of their leaves floating randomly anymore.


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## treesmcdonald

That Java fern thing is weird. Maybe they are still adjusting to their new surroundings. The good thing is that the rhizome still looks nice and healthy so hopefully it will start growing new leaves soon.


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## TeutonJon78

Yeah, I did notice that it is still green. It only seems to affect the older leaves. I pulled a few dying ones that had had nice big spore pods on the bottom of them. Probably too much change too fast. They went from being in my setup, in a bucket for about 1.5 months with little light and no water change, then into a tank as bare rhizome with short period and no ferts, and now into an NPT tank that went from no fish to fish. It may just be too much to adapt with those leaves.

Or...with my brain churning now, maybe it had grown some different form of low nutrient leaf. And now that it has nutrients, it's switching back to a new form. Is that possible? I guess it would be like a switch between emersed and submerged forms. Since Java fern is purely aquatic, maybe it has nutrient rich and poor forms.


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## TeutonJon78

Today's update... NH3/4 still 0.

Also, in the other tank I have (5 gallon for guppies/endlers...not really mine, it's my partners. I dislike guppies), I got a "compact sword" for it. But, I picked out the biggest, best one the LFS had, so it already had two stalks with plantlets on them. So I cut the best one with 3 babies and put it in my tank. I just stuck the leaf in the substrate to let them grow in the tank. Not sure if they are staying, but they would help in the midground which is ailing and would fill in the empty space left by the Mermaid weed.

The proper species would be "Echinodorus parviflorus var tropica".


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## TeutonJon78

NH3/4 still 0. This uneventfulness is almost boring. 

I do have to say, I'm liking NPT a lot. No playing with yeast, no having to measure chemicals and remembering to put them in. Just feed the fish and enjoy.


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## treesmcdonald

TeutonJon78 said:


> NH3/4 still 0. This uneventfulness is almost boring.


Hahaha. I'm sure we would be hearing a different story if things were more eventful!

I too like my NPT. It might be a little harder to achieve the exact look that you want but the lack of maintenance makes up for it in my book.


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## TeutonJon78

Well, if the NH3 is still 0 on Friday and the nitrites are 0 (which I haven't tested at all), I'm getting the rest of my fish.

Then I can start to treat everyone for Ich. Then it's time to sit back and watch the plant's grow.


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## TeutonJon78

treesmcdonald said:


> Hahaha. I'm sure we would be hearing a different story if things were more eventful!


Well, that is true too.

Anyway, NH3 still 0 zero today. Plants have slowed down their growth the last two days. Perhaps I released too much C02 from the substrate with my poking around. Or perhaps they've adjusted to my fish load.


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## TeutonJon78

So, here are today's parameters....
NH3/4 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 1-5 ppm (not much at all)
pH = 7.1ish
dKH = 4
dGH = 6

So...tank ready for more fish. what did I get? 9 more cardinals (total of 21 now), 2 German rams, and 10 Amano shrimp. The rams are tiny and the store only had 1 female. So, the tank is done now.

The female ram may be of ill-repute. I was at the store last night and she was all buddy-buddy with one male. Today she was buddy-buddy with another one. They only had one female, so I know it's the same one. Anyway, I picked one of the males she was playing nice with but not the most aggressive one in the tank.

And yet...with so many fish (granted tetras and small fish) that a tank can still look empty. No more fish though. No more.

Regarding the plants, the aponotegen leaves started to have some holes and degrade a little bit. Not sure if that was from the snails or not. I also cut up the stalk of baby Tropica swords and planted them officially. I'll be updating the layout picture at some point (not this weekend as I have a lot of stuff going on).


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## TeutonJon78

And I also had a thought about the quick growth spurt followed by a "stall" that is experienced. Could it be that this is the bacteria taking hold? At first, the plants would be getting the ammonia, but as the bacteria multiply, they take over and start converting to NO3 and preventing quick plant uptake. Since plants don't prefer NO3, they go back to slow growth. I also noticed a change for the floating plants who started to grow better as the others slowed down.


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## TeutonJon78

morning report...everyone doing fine. The rams have already started to color up even more than they were in the store. Cardinals doing ok. One has a spot of ich on the side, but that is a known condition and will be dealt with starting Sunday night.

And Amano shrimp now creep me out as much as spiders. I saw one was trapped back in the filter compartment, so I was going to free him. I went to get my little net, and what do I see when I came back to the tank? Little antenna poking out of the back compartment, soon followed by the whole shrimp climbing out of the tank. I got him back in the water though without any issue.

Cherry red shrimp are nice because when then go out of water, they just lay there, not crawl around....gross.


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## treesmcdonald

TeutonJon78 said:


> And Amano shrimp now creep me out as much as spiders. I saw one was trapped back in the filter compartment, so I was going to free him. I went to get my little net, and what do I see when I came back to the tank? Little antenna poking out of the back compartment, soon followed by the whole shrimp climbing out of the tank. I got him back in the water though without any issue.
> 
> Cherry red shrimp are nice because when then go out of water, they just lay there, not crawl around....gross.


YUCK! lol. Do I remember my zoology class right and that they are in the same family as spiders? My three amano shrimp "disappeared". I found two of them while sweeping the floor. I'm hoping that the third is still in a crevice behind the heater or something and that my baby didn't eat it because it is NOT in the holding tank they were in. Yum a tasty crunchy treat!


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## TeutonJon78

If they aren't in the same "family" (strictly speaking) then they are at least fairly close relatives. Either way, I like my shrimp in garlic and butter or in the tank underwater. Not crawling around freely.

tank update: all new inhanitants doing fine. Although, they sure are a skittish crowd with cardinals and rams. Although if you are looking at the tank, the rams will sometime swim up to your face like they are staring you down. Water temp heading towards 81F. It will take a few few days to get to 87/88F for the ich treatment. Shrimp are floating all over the place cleaning stuff up, especially the rocks.

Plants are doing well. The frogbit is starting to make lots of babies. The leaves of the aponotegon still look back, but not totally fallling apart. I'd say the biggest growth of the submerged plants is the E. tenellus which is starting to fill in its space and the Crinium. It's been throwing up lots of stalks and even the ones that had bad tips are growing back nicely. The C. helferi is starting to get some roots to them, as I can see the tips on the edge of the tank for some of them. The vals seem to be doing ok, buy they arne't throwing up any high leaves yet (which is what I wanted. Perhaps they aren't dense enough yet for that.

The java fern is still having it weird issue, but it seems to be slowing down. HC has adjusted and stopped melting (if only the rams would stop picking at it).

That's about it.


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## ed seeley

Sorry to be slightly off track with this thread but I HAD to say something about shrimp and spiders being closely related. They are both members of the Phylum Arthropoda, but this includes an estimated 80% of described animal species!!!
Crustacea (shrimps) and Arachnida (spiders) split into different groups somewhere in the Cambrian which began 542 million years ago! Vertebrates didn't even evolve until around 380 mya! So it could be said that we are more closely related to fish than shrimps are to spiders!

Jon I'm loving your detailed log of your tank, keep it up!


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## TeutonJon78

well thanks. I plan on it.

NH3/4 still at zero. Temp at 82F and rising. I'm not sure my 150W heater can handle raising the temp to 88F alone, so I may have to get out my other 50W heater.


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## TeutonJon78

well, there is other new news for the tank. The rams apparently paired up fully, because they laid some eggs. They have been hanging around the petrified wood in the back right of the tank for a few days on and off, and now they have about 10-15 eggs (don't forget, the rams are pretty tiny and young at this point) on the rock. they just about match the color of the rock. I doubt any will survive since this is the first attempt, but I'm glad I did end up with a breeding pair.

The father is proudly watching over the eggs as I type.


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## TeutonJon78

oops..posted too soon. They are still in the process of spawning. I had read that raising the temp often induces rams to spawn.

Picture of the tank as of today... (why won't any of the stupid plants grow tall 


Here is a very blurry picture of the rams for reference. They are about the same size as most of the cardinals (and smaller than the few bigger cardinals)


Here is a close-up of some of the eggs.


And here is a picture of the shrimp....
:spider:
kidding.


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## TeutonJon78

and another update today...busy day. One shrimp died. I think it died earlier, but i was thinking it was just a leaf against the filter. so let's have a moment of silence.

Just a weak shrimp or due to the heat....place your votes now. One shrimp did shed it's skin in the bag on the way home from the storm, so it could have been that one. or not that one...who knows.


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## TeutonJon78

tank at 87F and holding as of last night. The E. tenellus has really started to grow at the higher temps and I think it will easily outgrow the HC and eliminate it from the tank. oh well.

And no more ram eggs. They ate them two nights ago or so over overnight. I don't think any were even fertilized, as they never turned clear. First attempt was a failure. Hopefully they will get it right. The male has been growing quite a bit, the female hasn't as much (too much energy into egg production I guess).

14 days of temp, then slowly back to normal.


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## TeutonJon78

Here is the updated layout with the new plants and such.


I'll be posting some new pics this week. Poor fishies...they are just flying through cycles of ich. Unfortunately, I'm having problems keeping the water at 87F during the day with the stupid fans on the hood. it keeps dropping to 85F-ish. At night, it reaches the right temps.


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## TeutonJon78

fish update...oops, I was making an error reading the temp (the stupid Celsius line always fools me into 90F). Anyway, I was only at 85ish most of the time. I thought the fans were keeping it down, but I think I was misreading it before as well. Super embarrassing. Anyway, as of yesterday, I was at 87F during the day and 88F during the night. Now I'm at temp. Grrrrr.

The frankly, the thing that drove to start looking for my error was the ich went totally out of control. WHen I started only a few fish had it and they were rather large. Now, almost all the fish had multiple small "salt" pieces on them. They would change location every day, but still there. Of course, since I wasn't hitting 86F, I was just speeding up the life cycle and not killing them. Oops. Anyway, by yesterday evening, they were already looking a lot better with much less visible ich.

I will post some pictures this week of the tank. The vals seem to have recovered, but i think they are too far apart and are staying low. I will have to wait for some babies so they grow up. The aponotegon is growing very quickly and almost at the water's surface with one leaf. The HC is growing (I even saw one oxygen bubble yesterday), but it is not spreading very well. The E. tenellus is starting to take over the HC even more. I'm inclined to let it. I like the low HC, but the rams like to play in the grass like plants. The stem plants are finally starting to grow well and have good color as well.

This is the most success I've had with a planted tank since I started 2 years ago. It could just be more experience, but I do think the dirt has a role in it as well. I've never had this many plants growing well together. Plus, I really like the fact of not doing dosing and water changes as much. Water more from a conservation standpoint as they don't take that much time. dosing from a huge pain the rump standpoint.


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## TeutonJon78

on a side note to my forumites....does anyone else notice that a seemingly large percentage of the people who post on this NPT forum are from the extended Portand area? I think it's at least 5 people out of the 10 or so that seem to post the most here.


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## 01krisp10

Yeah I did notice that, Portland just seems to attract the naturalists, or raises them I guess.


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## TeutonJon78

well, it would be attracts in my case.

Anyway tank update--vals are officially starting to grow. There are few runners back there and one plant in particular has started to grow tall. The leaves are delicate in the spp 'natans''.

Also, the rams bread again today. About 30+ eggs again in the same spot. Not where I had figured they would breed originally as it's the highest, brightest flat spot in the tank, but they like it. Let's see if they got fertilized this time. The ich on the fish is still there (mostly the cardinals), but the spots are getting very small now. GRRRR...just go away.

Pics still forthcoming. I've been lazy about it this week.


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## dirtmonkey

It's been fun watching your tank progress, time warped for me into just over a couple hours while doing other online stuff, thanks for posting all the details. It looks great, well on its way, and obviously the rams approve! Here's another Portlander, too. But I was bred here LOL.

I think you're on track with the Java fern adjustment... If I could make a suggestion... it's going to sound radical... scalp it. snip off all of the fronds that have even a brown spot, and then even further into the green ones. That should stop the spread of the browning. Then, give it a few days or a week to let the frond stubs wash away, leaving only firm rhizomes. Go in there with a razor or Xacto knife and slice several of the longer, well-attached rhizomes, removing a short piece so that water can flow between them, but both parts still attached to the wood. The rhizomes should sprout out new leaves all over themselves after that, especially near the cuts that were toward the growing ends. If you really don't want to cut into the rhizomes, they should eventually start growing again anyway, but probably take a good while longer, and come in patchy with bare spots instead of more evenly. Just nicking the rhizomes in certain places works too, but it's kind of a specialized procedure, you have to do it just distal to the nearest growth point and in in vascular line with it to reduce the apical dominance. Whoops, nerd words. You also have to be more careful than with a clean cut, or you could damage the tissue in enough spots to just start rotting the rhizomes.

That would all be easier over a kitchen sink... is the driftwood easy to lift out? Then you could also spray off the left parts with tap water, I doubt that would hurt the good bacteria in the wood enough to harm the tank at all. I would also give all the bare and snipped parts a good wash of strong salt water with a paint brush.

Is there anything focused at the spot it started? Light, water jet, anything? Those leaves aren't being dropped by the plant, they are being degraded by something and the plant is "allowing" it or unable to resist it. I would have thought bacterial infection, and it's definintely bacteria or fungi that are spreading and finishing them off, but since the rhizomes seem OK I think it's more of an opportunistic infection of the shocked/damaged leaves as you mentioned before. But from your pictures I'm guessing that it's spreading by contact with the newer leaves, and if it isn't stopped, you'll have nothing but bare rhizome all the way across. I'd bet they still come back though.

Nitrate reduction occurs as well in fern roots as it does in the fronds, and the green rhizomes also photosynthesize. Just a suggestion, but I'd be hacking away at those fronds. It wouldn't kill it.

Yeah, I'm a big plant nerd, but trying not to sound like a know-it-all. Sorry it's so long, I just came back and kept rambling a few times 

Oh- petrified materials aren't always silicate based like the stuff from Eastern OR & WA. There are fossilized woods that are calcified instead, or a mix, near limestone back east and such. There could be a slow buffer leaching there. The wood and gravel definitely could hold some of those Chgo minerals, but you fixed the crash worry with the coral. Java fern never looked good in soft water for me anyway. Uh, i forgot what you used for soil... but a lot of mixes have lime added to raise the low pH of the organics, especially peat moss.

V


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## TeutonJon78

Yeah, I could play with the rhizome, but I don't want to disturb the substrate and the arch is kind the central piece in the tank, so it would make a big mess. Plus, the leaves are now starting to grow back.


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## TeutonJon78

*Week 5 Update*

So...here is the week 5 update (3-25-2007). Things are growing pretty well. Just as a reminder, here is how it looked at initial planting and then a few days later when the water had cleared up.
 

Drum roll please........ :happy: :happy: :happy:

Here is the front of the whole tank. Everything is growing really well (except the stupid tiger lotus...those bulbs have never grown anything good for me...just a few little piddly leaves). Even the crypts have finally started to grow back and the Java fern seems to be recovering.


Here is a closeup of the E. tenellus at the front. It has been growing like gangbusters and spreading around the front of the tank. I've had to cut a few runner and replant them to try to keep from overrunning the HC, although I'll probably just let it. I like the looks and the rams, especially the female, like to play in them. Plus, it's good shrimp hiding territory.


Big news of the week, the vals have definitely recovered. Some have started to grow longer leaves. And one is about to flower. This bud grew about 2-3 inches alone yesterday and is now floating at the surface. Hopefully it will bloom today.


Here is a pic of two of the E. parviflorus var 'Tropica' that I planted. The 2nd one is still little and behind it. It was about an 1" tall when planted and one leaf about 2.5-3" now. The 3rd on that is just behind the cliff stone in the picture is actually growing the best.


Picture of the male ram. And a blurry picture of the female. I was moving a plant yesterday and she bit me. Ha. Of course, it didn't hurt, but it was funny to see this little 1.5" fish showing fins and trying to scare my arm off.
 

Picture through the tank with some of the cardinals.


Back right side of tank with the crinium and pearl grass.


Zoomed in image of the vals and wavy aponotegon. Also, a pic of the Cyperus helferi. It has started to grow tall just this week and is now taller than the rock in a lot of places. Now it will be an even better place for the rams to breed.
 

So, pretty good growth overall for 5 weeks. The only think I've lost is the Mermaid weed which would have looked pretty well. But I'm happy with the Tropica swords to replace it.

And ich update...almost gone. Only a few little spots left on a few cardinals. Rams no longer have any (female never got any anyway). So, once the last spot is gone, just 1.5 weeks more at temp then I can go back to 78F or so for normal tank life.


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## newbie314

Nice pictures.
I didn't know Val. flowered. Not going to happen in my tank, not high enough.

I like that standing rock structure. What is it?


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## TeutonJon78

newbie314 said:


> Nice pictures.
> I didn't know Val. flowered. Not going to happen in my tank, not high enough.
> 
> I like that standing rock structure. What is it?


I think only male plants flower, or maybe only male flowers on unisex plants. I didn't quite understand. I didn't think they did either, but according to Kasselmann in _Aquarium Plants_, they do. Kind of surprise to me.

The standing rock (I assume you mean in the back left) was marked as Petrified Wood, but it looks most like a sandstone to me. Either way, I agree...I like it. And the medium tan color offsets the green and browns of the tank pretty well.


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## 01krisp10

Looks great, I can only hope mine works out so well. Do you think the eco-complete helped? Guess only time will tell.


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## TeutonJon78

I do think the eco-complete helped (just as Flourite or similar brands) would. I think the fired/fractured/whatever clay products do help by holding onto some of the nutrients. Less in the water/filter means more for the plants in the substrate. I'd say they kind of work like "dirt lite". Plus, I had pretty good success in EC alone, so dirt+EC should be even better, which thus far it has been.

Either way, I don't think it hurt.


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## newbie314

Is E. tenellus a mini-val?


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## DonaldmBoyer

No newbie....it is a type of micro sword plant.

Teuton~~~Awesome progress! It has been a fantastic journal, and very educational! Congratulations on a superb el Natural tank!


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## TeutonJon78

newbie314 said:


> Is E. tenellus a mini-val?


No, E. tenellus is the pygmy chain sword. Not sure if it's the narrow leaf variety or the normal one. Based on the growth so far, I tend to think it's the narrow leaf.


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## TeutonJon78

oops...duplicate post...ignore me.


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## TeutonJon78

So the update of the day. Only 2 little spots of ich in the last check. I'm guessing those will be gone in a day or two.

Also, they val has NOT flowered yet, but it's continued to just grow and grow and grow that shoot. It's seriously about 2.5 feet long (yep...that's not a typo). If I have the lid of my tank up and lift the val out of the water, it's just about as tall as lid. Does the top need to hit something dry for the flower to open? Or is this really just a rogue, crazy stem with a weird growth?


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## DonaldmBoyer

I don't think that the val needs to hit anything, jon, for it to bloom......it wouldn't hit anything in the "wild." Give it some time!


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## TeutonJon78

Tank Update of the day (pictures later).

1. no more (visible) ich spots. So, another 1.5 weeks at 87-88F and then the tank will come back down slowly. yay!!!!
2. rams bread again yesterday (attempt #3) and ate the eggs by this morning. More looked fertilized than during attempt #2. However, I think the temp is too high for the eggs to hatch properly anyway.
3. the val is starting to flow. I have picture of it this morning (seriously long..it's wrapping around the top of the tank). By afternoon, the tip of the leaf was starting to come off and revel the full flower.

I'll get more pics as the flower unfurls.


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## Muirner

How big does E. tenellus get?

EDIT: By the way, great looking tank, love the progress!


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## TeutonJon78

well, E. tenellus seems to vary by the light it's getting. I think it maxes out at 5-6". However, is my tank, it's staying around 2-4", and the longer leaves have a nice curling to the side rather than growing straight up. Most of what you see at stores is the emersed form from Florida Aquatics. That's why it's so tall and vertical.

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=067


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## TeutonJon78

yay...pic updates.

Here are some pics of the val's flow on 3-30-2007. In the middle picture, notice how long that stem got.
  

3-31-2007


4-1-2007


So, it does appear the flower bud needed to hit dryness to open. It didn't open until the tip got caught on the lip of the tank/floating plants and lifted the flower bud out of the water. Then it opened up right away and took about 2 days to fully open. Of course, there's pollen all over the place. It ended up having a nice, light fragrance. I tried to dust the pollen around in case it's a unisex plant.

Also, there is another flower bud forming on another val (maybe the same one). Anyway, maybe this one will be a female and I can get seeds. that would be totally cool.

Fish update...nothing new...no ich and just waiting the time to bring the temp back to 78F.


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## TeutonJon78

The rams breed again yesterday. Attempt #4. Still 5-6 more days of temp though, so this will likely fail as well. The Java fern is slowly starting to recover and make leaves. The tiger lotus has even started to look happier and make a few new leaves. Also, the crypts have finally made a return to the tank and are starting to fill in their space.

So, overall, the only failure was the mermaid's weed (which may or may not have been due to the health of the plant originally, but it died very quickly). The HC is growing, but not really spreading quicking (expected). So it is a success, even though it won't be in the tank much longer due to being covered by the E. tenellus. So overall, a pretty good success rate for this tank.

I've noticed strange plant growth cycles. It appears that the plants almost take turns in growing. One or two plant species will grow really well for awhile and then seem to stall, then a different species will take over and grow really fast, then a different one, then back to the original ones. It seems that only certain ones are really growing at any one time.

I'm guessing it has to do with the level of nutrients. Like, some plants like higher N or lower N. When the N is high, a species kicks in until no more N. Then it shuts off growing and a low N speicies takes over. Then when N builds back up, the N-lovers kick back on. Not that it would only be limited to N or even N related. Just a theory.

Anyone else have experience like this?


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## wiste

> So, it does appear the flower bud needed to hit dryness to open.


Interesting that the bud did not break the water surface on its own but grew all the way to the side of the tank.


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## TeutonJon78

wiste said:


> Interesting that the bud did not break the water surface on its own but grew all the way to the side of the tank.


I thought it would just hit the surface and go above and open. It just kept growing and growing and growing until it had some air. I guess it makes since since vals could grow in deeper lakes and you don't want to flower underwater.

I placed the 2nd flower bud on top of the frogbit. It didn't open right away, but started to mature much faster than the other one. It was about ready to open up last night.


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## whitetiger61

I think your plant growth in different plants is due to N uptake and usage..that is why i havent tried one of these Natural tanks yet..Plants will take in ammonia, but they also like to take in kno3 and potassium..and im not sure the soil and fish can keep up with it without help..i could be wrong, your tank looks great and i have no experience in natural tanks, but i do have 2 years in planted tank experience. I think thats why your HC is not spreading like it should..i think it needs more ferts than its getting..like i said, i could be wrong.


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## TeutonJon78

whitetiger61 said:


> I think thats why your HC is not spreading like it should..i think it needs more ferts than its getting..like i said, i could be wrong.


I'd agree with that. It's probably not enough light or CO2 or nutrients for the HC. it has such short roots, that it's not going to reach the soil for the nutrients. Since that is where most of the nutrients are, it's just no going to thrive. What survived the initial planting is doing very well, just not spreading much...and definitely not faster than the E. tenellus.


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## TeutonJon78

Here are the new pics of the tank as of today: full tank, left, right
  

Close up of the E. tenellus...watch it take over.


Pics of the two val flowers.


I may be recanting on the vals needing to hit dry air. Once it was above the water line by my doing, it still took a few days to open up, during which time it went back under water. When it was ready, it broke above the surface in short order.


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## 01krisp10

Awesome tank. Love it. Amazing how a little time can change the look of a tank completely.

Are you still using crushed coral, was it? Taken measurements lately if you have been? (details)


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## TeutonJon78

01krisp10 said:


> Awesome tank. Love it. Amazing how a little time can change the look of a tank completely.
> 
> Are you still using crushed coral, was it? Taken measurements lately if you have been? (details)


Yep, still have my 1 tsp of crushed coral in there. But I think my EcoComplete absorbed a lot of calcium from chicago, so I think my hardness is probably all over the board. Of course, the nice PDX water will slowly eat that away. No, I haven't tested lately. I should probably. I have no idea what the nitrates are even at.

Of course, the tank starts it temp down slide in a few days and I plan on doing a nice water change at the end of that. Then I will officially enter in the water changes only when needed regime.

And I agree...the tank looks a lot different than it did just 2 weeks ago (3-25). And when I compare it against the first day pics...WOW. It's seriously hard for me to believe that I'm doing basically nothing for the plants. When I ran this tank before, I was playing with C02 and ferts and stuff, and it was just a total hassle. Things are just working this time. Of course, maybe I hit some weird stroke of luck and picked a lot of good co-working species or something. Guess I won't know until I setup a different tank. Frankly, it almost feels like I'm cheating or something. ha ha.

I just wish it was easier to harvest some of the E. tenellus out so I could share it with others.

And on a side note, the tiger lotus is slowly starting to grow instead of being just totally stagnant. The 2nd bulb hasn't even spouted leaves yet.


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## littleguy

Jon, this has been a nice read! Your tank looks awesome, very healthy.

I set up a tank a few weeks ago with many similar plants. How is your cyperus helferi liking the low-tech setup - have you noticed any growth? Is your frogbit growing much? My frogbit is growing super long (15") roots, which is a bit bewildering to me since I've only seen it looking like yours. Did you ever figure out the cause (or solution) to your cloudy water you had in the beginning?


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## TeutonJon78

I don't know the actual cause of the cloudy water, but putting a little filter floss in the filter intake for 2 days took care of it and it hasn't been back since.

The frogbit has been growing. It has been maintaining short short roots though. And none of the individual pads are getting that big, but it's making lots of babies. I started with 7 decent size ones and I probably have about 20 small-medium ones now, if not more.

The C. helferi didn't really show any growth at all for the first 4-5 weeks. Not it has really started to grow and some of the leaves are almost at the top of the tank. if you compare, the newest shots wit the oldest ones, you can see the change pretty well.


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## Aquaspot

TeutonJon78 said:


> I'd agree with that. It's probably not enough light or CO2 or nutrients for the HC. it has such short roots, that it's not going to reach the soil for the nutrients. Since that is where most of the nutrients are, it's just no going to thrive. What survived the initial planting is doing very well, just not spreading much...and definitely not faster than the E. tenellus.


HC has much longer roots than you think. Once it gets comfortable and starts spreading, you can pull some up to see for yourself.

Your plants are actually growing very well and much faster than expected for a low-tech tank! Congrats!


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## DonaldmBoyer

Jon,
Have you considered trying some Cabomba or normal red ludwigia? They both have beautiful flowers, and surprisingly, I had great success getting them to flower when I had a 55gallon el Natural.

Just an option.....I believe that most of the parameters that I had are very similar to what you have. CO2 wasn't necessary for that to happen, and it was very worth it. Except I had a lot of yellow pollen to clean up on the top 

Tank looks wonderful! Nicely done!


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## TeutonJon78

Aquaspot said:


> Your plants are actually growing very well and much faster than expected for a low-tech tank! Congrats!


Well, that's the soil for you. Works wonders in my opinion.


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## lljdma06

Great tank TeutonJon! It has really progressed from day 1. Isn't E. tenellus great? I've got some in two of my low-light nanos. It's like a little weed.

I lived in Vancouver, WA for 13 years and used to love taking trips to Portland, OR on the weekends. Lovely city. 

llj


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## shewey

I love your E. tenellus, it looks awesome.


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## fanutd100

Nice one. I am new to planted tank. Very instructive info.


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## tantaMD

inspirational el natural!!!!,... i observe u have quite success in keeping HC in el natural tank. i wonder how it would be , if its not gotten overwhelmed by tenellus. Perhaps u should try another el natural


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## TeutonJon78

Well, I was sharing this thread with someone and though I should put the final update to it.

I took the tank down in 2010-7. There was a variety of issues that led to the demise:

compacta sword babies I planted ended up being not-so-compacta size and took over everything else due to shading killing most of the plants (apparently, the size must be a cultivar and not genetic)
lighting broke and I was down to my backup single tube light
extremely tired the nanocube and it's custom dimensions making replacing anything either paying for stock parts or a DIY project
had a few fish deaths after 2 years
didn't want to spend the money to replant most of the tank, replace the bulbs/lighting, and restock the tank

Final Pics:
2009-10-24 - Sword Takeover Results
  

2010-7-9 - Few remaining plants (and WAY too many snails, as always)
   

The remaining fish and plants went to an excellent new home, and I sold the tank.

I can definitely recommend el Natural tanks, and frankly, I doubt I would setup anything else in the future.


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## atc84

Thank you for sharing. When i have the time ill read through your journal


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## TeutonJon78

Hm, trying to edit my old posts to fix the img links, but it's not letting me edit.


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## TeutonJon78

Anyway, I uploaded the important images to imgur.

Pre-NPT setup (eco-complete):


http://imgur.com/thZGw

NPT Setup:


http://imgur.com/BzHYJ

NPT Progress:


http://imgur.com/WNItZ


Overall, I wouldn't do any other type of tank again. The long term issue is snail and plant choice. I let the snails get out of control for various reasons, but it's what led to the death of the tank. They ate too much plant materials, died too much, and left their shells everywhere.

The compact sword was also a problem in the long run because as it spread, it cut out the light for anything shorter than it. The same was true for the frogbit. It was great for doing it's job, but it spread too much and blocked a ton of light from getting to the plants below. The tank always suffered when I left the frogbit cover the top for too long. Eventually the tank got to the point where I needed to replant the whole thing or tear it down. I ended up going with tear down because I had tired of the tank setup (the equipment, mostly, I would have needed new lights or a new lighting setup).

I wouldn't get the Nanocube again. I liked the size and the ability to hide mechanicals in the back of the aquarium, but it was a custom size, so there was little to no options for getting aftermarket replacements for things like lighting.


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