# Stunted Angel Fish ?



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

I bred some angel fish 2-3 years ago and they are currently about an inch and a half maybe 2 inches across (body size only). I believe they have stunted.

If I remove a small group of say 5 fish and put them in a tank to themselves will they eventually grow to full size? Can they ever be bred?


----------



## blue thumb (Mar 30, 2010)

With so much cross breeding inbreeding with Angelfish I'm not surprised they could be stunted. How long did it take to get to the size they are now.


----------



## Yo-han (Oct 15, 2010)

Could be due to too little water changes. Fish produce anti growth hormone, if there is too much in the water then fish stop growing, regular water changes can make the fish feel like it is in a bigger tank. When you place then in a bigger tank or do bigger water changes few times a week they grow to their full potential. I don't think fish from 3 years old will grow much but it is worth a shot.

About the breeding, unless their organs are stunned too much, they'll breed and fry can be raised to max size because stunting isn't genetic so the fry will be normal. But I can't tell you if they are fertile.


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

It took them a couple of months to get to the size they are now. They have grown slowly since then a little bit but remain roughly the same as they were a few years ago.

They have been in a 180g tank with an auto water change system that changes 5% a day with RO water. There are 6 cories, about 20 plecos, 10 angels and maybe 10 smaller fish here and there. Not sure why they stunted. Perhaps not enough good food.


----------



## Bruce_S (Jun 11, 2012)

Water change regimen sounds pretty good, and I couldn't lay the blame on the tank size, either. I know that people who are looking to grow fish at maximum speed often feed heavily with live - or at least frozen - foods. Flakes & pellets alone just don't seem to do it. My $0.02

~Bruce


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hmm yes I studied away for a long while and someoe feeding the fish every other day with flakes only since it is more of a hassle to feed beef heart and worms. 

Looks like they probably didn't get enough food then to grow properly. 

The thing is their eyes don't bulge like other stunted fish I've seen. I wonder if they can resume their growth if fed well from now on. Aren't fish supposed to keep growing slowly until they die of old age?


----------



## TheFoleys (Aug 28, 2012)

blue thumb said:


> With so much cross breeding inbreeding with Angelfish I'm not surprised they could be stunted. How long did it take to get to the size they are now.


For the most part I don't agree with this statment.
There is a lot of cross breeding in all tropical fish. Inbreeding in nature occurs frequently, and does not cause any of the silly rumors that go about... Inbreeding cannot cause stunting ever. When breeding a fish young receive the traits of the parents. No new unknown genes are produced like a size inhibiting gene. But as you stack genes on a chromosome traits become more apparent. This can be good or bad one must breed responsibly and inspect the quality of specimens before breeding. Pos traits and neg traits can be added or eliminated in a thorough way. Dominate neg traits are not a random formation of inbreeding. They are the result of unresearched amateur breeders breeding neg traits into dominance by just breeding all they can without analyzing the quality of the specimen to be bred. This occurs regardless of the relational distance of parents. In humans inbreeding is viewed this way because most folks willing to inbreed also drink heavily during pregnancy and malnourished their growing children. Google inbreeding in wealth elite and you will find that many of the biggest elite families practice this to keep the money in the line. Pretty gross huh. Any British here? Btw not advocating inbreeding! Lol

Zappins we are angelfish enthusiasts and without hearing more about the environment they are in I'd say your angels are metobolically hibernating due to low temp water fills. Many larger Amazonian fish have adapted to radically changing seasonal water levels. Don't want to get to big in the dry season. Idk your water parameters but this is a common stopping point for growth. If water temps fall below 75 its common to slow function and refuse more than a feeding a day and slow the matabolism to wait out nature. If that is the case no worries you haven't waited too long. Bump temp in tank to 82- 83 degrees. Angels will become very Hungary and need to be fed during this change 5-6 times daily because they will enter an overdrive period to grow and pair asap before nature catches up again. Size may double in a month or so if you keep up with feeding. Any store bought food for cichlids will due live foods aren't nessasary. If you plan on keeping them as display fish temp should be lowered to 78. Keeping em in high metabolism will cause their lifespans to shorten as they max out. . The young should be kept in proper temps and water conditions to avoid triggering this reaction. Some keeper do this intentionally to kee a large quantity of small fish tightly packed with minimal territorial behaviors. Yes they will likely be able to breed. I do suggest you research proper breeding mechanics. Asking not how to but why to. What is the intent of your breeding other than fun?


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Thanks for the reply.

The incoming water is 55F, the tank stays around 78F due to the heaters but the water circulation is not very good due to all the plants I have in that tank so it is colder at the bottom and warmer at the top of the tank. I hope you are right about the hibernation thing. I'll remove them from that tank in the next few weeks and increase the temp to 82F and feed often. Hopefully they will pull out of it and breed.

I want to keep breeding these particular angels because I have searched for their exact looks for years and years now. They look exactly like the scalara angel on the whisper filter box except with slightly longer fins. Perfect color perfect finnage on the adults and all their babies. Simply the culmination of everything that it is to be an angel fish in my opinion.


----------



## TheFoleys (Aug 28, 2012)

GL.
Let me know how it goes.I'm interested. Might want to reduce the flow on the filler so it does less shock . The slower it fills the quicker your heater can compansate


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Its been a few months since I last posted so I thought I'd update this thread. 

When I returned home the angels were a bit bigger. Several of them are now about 2 inches across (body size excluding fins). I caught all 9 of them from my tank at home and brought them to my apartment fish tank. They spent about 2 days hiding barely eating the beef heart I was feeding them. Then lo and behold a pair formed and on the 3rd day in the new tank they laid about 80-100 eggs. Certainly not the biggest batch I've ever seen but who am I to complain? The angel fish lineage will continue! 

A few more days of heavy feeding with beef heart and all the angels are looking quite plump, a second pair has formed on the other side of the tank, and a third pair may be forming in the middle. I will have to remove the other angels that have not paired or they will get harassed to death. 

The first pair have been great parents, they didn't eat any of their eggs at all and guarded them well. But in the interests of propagating the line and feeding the fry properly I removed the eggs about 8-12 hrs before they hatched and incubated them in a 2.5g tank where I can feed them 1000s of baby brine shrimp easily. The parents can raise their 2nd batch on their own if they want to.

I'll post pictures at some point.


----------



## Bruce_S (Jun 11, 2012)

Hey! You've got something a lot of folks probably want ... angelfish they can keep with their neons!

Congrats on the spawn of what sound like some lovely fish!

~Bruce


----------



## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Haha, I'm not sure I'd trust any angels with neons I've seen their handiwork!  

I'm very pleased. The babies hatched and look great so far. They are absorbing their yolk sacs at the moment and will probably be doing so for the next few days. I think their first meal will have to be "first bites" from 1-2 years ago. Might have to boil an egg and feed them the yolk while the baby brine shrimp are hatching. I'm hoping one day between becoming free swimming and their first brine shrimp meal won't harm them too much.

I should probably turn down the temperature to 77 from the current 85F to slow their metabolism down.


----------

