# neurological problem in fish



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

short version: 
my blue tetras are 'spinning' and dying, I don't know why, and I'm not sure what to do. See video links below.

Long version:
Last Sunday I bought some blue tetras (Boehlkea fredcochui) and sparkling gouramis from the LFS and put them in my 20 gallon quarantine tank. That night, a couple of the tetras were acting very weird... spinning around in circles, out of control. One of them died and was immediately removed. At first I thought that these tetras were just very sensitive and were stressed out from the netting and change of aquariums. At the time, the remaining fish seemed to be acting normal. Then a couple hours later, another one was dead and stuck to the filter intake. I removed that fish too and put a sponge over the intake. I looked on the internet and found something about pvc in garden hoses giving off all sorts of toxic stuff, so just in case, I dosed the aquarium with the tap water conditioner (I had done that already to the 5 gallons of tapwater that went into the tank - the rest was water from my established tank and a couple gallons of RO water) to get rid of toxic metals, and put carbon in the filter.

The next day, they seemed fine until I fed them lightly. After they were done eating, one of them flipped out and started spinning...  That night I lost two more. The rest seemed to be fine the next day, and I didn't see any problems again until that night. Another fish was spinning around again, and I thought for sure that it was going to be dead soon. But here's the really weird part: as I watched it spin, it suddenly just stopped and was swimming around normally again. It was picking around the bottom of the tank looking for food, playing 'tag' with the others in the normal tetra fashion, etc. It did this several more times that night and the next night too.

I haven't lost any more, but I'm not sure what to do. I still don't know if it's due to toxins they were exposed to, bacterial/viral infection, parasites... all I know is that the fish (I think there's only 1 affected fish left) seem to have a neurological problem of some sort. Has anybody seen this problem before? 

I took a couple videos of the fish...
YouTube - spinning fish 1
YouTube - spinning fish 2


----------



## erik Loza (Feb 6, 2006)

Viral (more than likely)/ bacterial infection attacking the fish's brain. Nothing you can do about it. As long as the rest of the fish appear healthy and water quality is good, I'd just ride it out and see who makes it. Sucks, but there is no answer aside from that. Good luck.


----------



## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

I guess my first question is what are the water qualities in the q-tank, like ammonia, nitrites and nitrates?
Do you keep your q-tank cycled (way to go for using one BTW.  )?

It does look to me like they're in shock from your video, but what is causing it is the big question.

I've unknowingly used a garden hose on my tank, and didn't have any ill effects, so I'm not really sure if that would have such a big impact on them.

If you can do a quick test on the water qualities I mentioned above, we could go from there.

In the mean time, I wouldn't use any meds until you know what you're dealing with, since that's usually harder on them than just letting them be and doing the water changes.


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

ammonia: 0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: very light, < 5 ppm

I've had a couple problems with adding new fish to my main tank (unfortunately I learned the hard way, like so many others). I'm very glad I used a QT this time.... I set it up again a couple of weeks ago, using more than 1/2 water from my established tank and the rest a mixture of tap and RO. It also has a very large amount of java moss from my main tank, along with a bunch of floating pearl grass and other odds and ends from a recent trimming.

I've also used a garden hose numerous times on other tanks with no problems, but that web page I mentioned got me thinking that I should at least put carbon and tap water conditioner in there just in case something toxic had gotten into the water somehow.

What really confuses me is that the affected fish (at least the one visibly affected fish I have left) seems/seemed normal 99% of the time... and that all of the deaths and spastic swimming have been at night. I'm not saying that the problem is a mind controlling parasite , but it did remind me of the "Lancet liver fluke" that takes over the minds of ants - they act normal during the day, then at night they climb to the top of blades of grass in hopes that they'll be eaten by sheep, where the flukes can go on to the next stage in their lifecycle.


----------



## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

LOL! I hear you about not being able to keep those things out of the back of your mind.

One other thought, since it's mostly happening at night is that maybe the C02 levels are going to high at night?
Just for fun, you could try to put an airstone in at night to see if that makes any difference.

Have you had any more deaths in the past day or so?
If not, maybe it was just some of the weaker ones that couldn't handle all of the adjustments they have to go through in a short time when you first get them.

One last thought is that the 50% RO water in the tank is something that was very different than what your LFS had, so they are having a hard time adjusting to that. Any chance your store could give you readings of how their water is?


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't think CO2 is the problem. I actually added an airstone in there the first night because I was afraid that my HOB filter wasn't moving the water surface enough with all the floating plants.

I just called the LFS and asked them about their water. (probably not a bad idea to know that *before* bringing fish home...) Fortunately/Unfortunately, they said their tetra tanks get 50% tap, 50% DI, with nothing except dechlorinator added, and their pH is about the same as mine (7.4 - 7.5). I don't mean to keep shooting down your ideas, Jan...  I do appreciate the suggestions!

I haven't lost any more fish, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed...I think I'll just have to do what Erik suggested and see how they progress. I'll keep you guys updated!


----------



## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Oh heck no, I don't consider you shooting down my ideas at all; they are just things that can be eliminated one by one to try to figure out what might or might not be wrong.

I agree, if you haven't lost any more, you're probably over the "hump" and the rest will be fine. Taking no action is far better than taking the wrong action.


----------



## vancat (Nov 5, 2004)

although they say... when we're old, we'll regret the things we haven't done, more than the things we have...


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

I just thought I'd give an update...

Since the behavior was continuing nearly 2 weeks after I got them, I decided to [risk taking the wrong action and] start feeding them Tetra brand medicated fish food. I really can't say whether it was that that helped or if it was just giving them more time, but several days after I started the medicated food I no longer saw the fish swimming frantically in circles. It's now been more than 3 weeks since any of the fish have been acting funny and they all seem to be healthy. 

I went ahead and added the fish to my main tank today. For the first 20 minutes or so they stayed in a really nice, tight school while they checked out the tank. Now the dominant female (I think it's a female anyway) has decided that the front middle part of the tank is hers and is keeping the other blue tetras away. She even occasionally pushes out the neon tetras. I think this is the first time I've ever had a territorial tetra. Hopefully *that* doesn't become a problem.


----------



## JanS (Apr 14, 2004)

Glad to hear it worked out for you. 

Isn't it fun to finally get them into the main tank?


----------



## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

tropism said:


> ammonia: 0
> nitrites: 0
> nitrates: very light, < 5 ppm
> 
> ...


I know you've already moved the fish to the main tank but here's a thought for the next time. It really sounds like the QT was not cycled:

1. Adding only water from an established tank will not get you enough beneficial bacteria in the tank to avoid a cycle. What you really need to add is "mulm" from an existing filter or from vacuuming an established substrate.

2. Even if you did use mulm, several weeks with no food source for the bacteria will mean that most of the bacteria will have died by the time you added the fish.

3. Don't rely 100% on your test kits. Calibrate/test them! I've seen test kits show >100ppm of Nitrates in distilled water! 

So it's possible that you had pretty big spikes of NH3/4 and/or NO2...


----------



## tropism (Jul 21, 2006)

Those are all really good points you made Laith, and definitely things that people should be aware of.

In my case I still don't think that was the problem though. I did consider those things. Even though I had set the QT up a couple weeks before I got the fish, the night before I got them I did do a small water change and added more mulm from the established aquarium... I also put a lot more java moss in from that tank. I ended up with about 3/4 of the QT having plants (mainly pearl grass) floating at the surface, and about 1/3 of the rest of the tank being taken up by java moss. Besides the surface area of the plants being colonized by bacteria (even if the majority of the bacteria on the other plants died, there was a very large amount of 'fresh' java moss), the plants themselves help take up ammonia and nitrite and even prefer those over nitrate.

Also, I actually did calibrate/check my ammonia and nitrate test kits. I don't know how to calibrate for nitrite, but it would surprise me if it was off by any significant amount since one of the nitrite tests I used (I double-checked the nitrite with a different kit too) was the same Seachem nitrite/nitrate test kit that I know for sure worked for the nitrates. For those that don't know, with the Seachem test kit I'm talking about, you add 1 drop of the liquid reagent then wait for 3-5 minutes for nitrite, then add a scoop of the powder to the same sample and wait for 5-8 minutes for nitrate. I don't know if it's possible for this type of test to be off with nitrites but not nitrates...


----------

