# ADA 60cm Spring 2007



## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

On Saturday my plants from Aquaspotworld arrived (in great shape!) so I was finally able to finish planting the 60cm. You may remember that I did a thread for the initial hardscape, here:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/35905-well-lesse.html

This is a formal after setup thread though, now that the tank has been planted. The water is still a bit murky but I hope you can still see it alright!










This has got to be one of the most annoying set-ups ever, with moss, riccia, glossostigma, small stem plants and even utricularia gibba (hitch-hiked on some others) all in there. 

I got inspired to do this lay out when I went to Japan this last summer. In the summer, the hills (well everywhere really outside of Tokyo) are packed with dense swollen forest of deep green as both the maple and sakura are green in that season-- and this deep green is beautifully highlighted by enormous groups of bamboo. I was mezmerized by those beautiful forests, and wondered how I could re-create them. After many hours of staring out the windows of the shinkansen, with nothing else to do or see or think about but those forests outside the window, the idea of combining Rotala sp. Najenshan with moss to recreate the texture of bamboo and trees came to me. That's when I decided that I'd definitely do a layout like that some day.

When I got back from Japan, I made this aquasketch:










I was tempted to do this as soon as I got back, but I decided it was best to sit on the ideas and let them develop longer. So, I did Hau Coast, a layout based on Hawai'i since then. I'm glad I took those 3-4 extra months to think about this layout, because in that time I realized a bunch of other things:

1) My original idea of attaching moss to a large piece of wood and them planting rotala around it was no good-- it could never give me the sense of "trees" that I wanted. From that I made the decision to go with many sticks instead of blocky wood. I think this will better help me get the two elements to mix.
2) I wanted a grassy plant in the foreground, but e. tenellus (used in Hau Coast) ended up being too freaking huge. There are other grassy plants, like Utricularia grammnifolia, but I decided its texture is a bit too "strange" for what I wanted. In the end I decided to go with riccia. I remembered the feelings of when I first got into aquascaping, and an aquarist in Hawaii had used riccia to make a lawn that, for a person who'd never seen a planted aquarium before, gave the magical sense of a crisp meadow. Because the Nature Aquarium books are also a big inspiration to me, I decided to go with riccia for nostalgia's sake. Glosso also was included for nostalgia's sake.
3) I really wasn't sure if I wanted to include a river or not, but in the end I decided too. The most common site for me from the shinkansen window was to see rolling fields of rice in front of the forests. I wanted to have the sense of water in this layout, and decided that a stream would also give an idea of "size" to my forest.
4) Bringing a tree to the front to give a sense of perspective has always been a part of this idea, but after considering branchy pieces to be used in the foreground, I decided that there just wasn't enough space front to back in the 60cm, so instead I decided to make another "wood" in the foreground with thicker sticks.

Well, I'm sure I'm forgetting some of my other ideas and thoughts, but I think that's enough about what I was thinking for now.

edit: This should go without saying but I want to make it clear that I truly invite any type of commentary and criticism-- bring it on.  Just be ready to discuss your opinions.

I hope you guys enjoy this one because I don't think I'll do another like it . . . ever . . . it took *4 Hours* to tie moss to *all those sticks!!!*


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## nellis (May 6, 2006)

Steven: Looking great. I think the foresty look is one of the coolest, but hardest looks to achieve. I think it will look amazing if you can get the rotala to send off side shoots nearer the top that sort of "climb" a little horizontally across the water's surface.

The woodwork looks so nice that I think that the rocks distract from them and are confusing in the overall sense of the scape, especially near the one spot with exposed gravel. At the same time they have the important role of dividing the front and back of the tank.
My .02$
As usual, nice work.

-Nate


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## mrbelvedere138 (Jan 18, 2006)

That's an interesting idea, but it's difficult for me to comment on the unfinished scape as of now. I do like the painting though, I'm especially impressed by the ripples at the surface. I'm sure it will look really neat when it fills in. 

I also think it's really cool how you do aquascapes that don't exactly "fit in the box". I'm rather tired of seeing the same thing over and over again, so I find your work very refreshing and original. Sorry to sound like a rabid fan.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Nate-- I have to agree that the rocks come accross really strongly now. Hopefully that impression will be softened as the plants grow in. There is moss attached to the rocks in some places (though it may be hard to see this) so hopefully it'll grow in and serve to combine the wood and stones more consistantly. BTW the stones serve another very important purpose-- holding back a mountain of aquasoil! I'll show some side photos later, but there's a really big change of substrate height from behind the rocks to infront of the rocks.

Mrbelvedere-- It is kind of boring to see the same stuff all the time, isn't it? For me, my idea is to try and push myself, as well as make a scape that could only exist because of me-- because of experiences and thoughts and a situation that are mine. Everyone has unique creative skills and unique experiences, so harnessing the strength from that aspect of us would help creative scaping, right?

I also respect your ability to refrain from judging lay outs until they're finished. In truth, I would do better to have a bit more patience like that.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

bump


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I have to say I agree about the rocks being a bit dark and heavy at the mo, but as you said they're there to hold something back and they do need to grow in. After looking at your last set ups, I'm sure it'll work out great.

Maybe something in front of the rocks to lighten it? Slope the sand stream more so it seems to flow from the rocks? A bit more like your painting where the water flowws down?

I love the vertical 'trunks' sure they'll look great when all that moss grows in! At the moment they remind me of the dead trees that stick up out of the water when an area is flooded, like in new reserviors.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I too would like less sand in the stream area, and get some better "movement" to it. However, I just set things up and don't want to disturb the substrate for a while. Later on I'll try to remove some though.

I'm actually wondering about cutting the bottoms of some of the sticks to make them shorter later. This isn't under water (metaphorically, of cours it is literally), so I'm wondering if it distracts to have the sticks go above water.Of course I could just raise the water level, but there's a limit to how much I can do that and still keep the "legs" of the light fixture above water.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Steven,
I think that this tank has the potential to be very interesting. It is hard to evaluate this one until it has grown in a bit. 

In your painting, the river is such a strong presence. I don't get this sense in your tank. It looks more like a deep forest cave. Perhaps it is the picture? 

I don't think that is a bad thing. You are still conveying a deep, tranquil forest scene that I hope will come out as the moss grows more. 

Best of luck to you!


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

Steven_Chong said:


> I'm actually wondering about cutting the bottoms of some of the sticks to make them shorter later. This isn't under water (metaphorically, of course it is literally), so I'm wondering if it distracts to have the sticks go above water.


In order to maintain the "forest" look I believe it would be important to stay away from the "bog" look of having the sticks break the surface. Unless there was a way to have a strong presence of emerged growth on the branches...


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Kelley-- the main problem is space. I'll admit, when drawing it's a lot easier to forget the constrains on front to back depth, not to mention other factors like realistic positioning of stones/wood/substrate. I think though, I'll continue working on the stream area. In particular, if I can make the sand shallower (and perhaps slope it too) there'll be a better sense of "flow" there. I also think that you're right that this one is relatively difficult to consider at the start in comparison to something like a typical ADA style set-up.

apistaeasy-- that's exactly what I was thinking! Later I think I'll work harder to find a way to get those sticks under water!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Someone on another forum requested some "better photos" so I decided to comply-- or at least take some casual shots now that the water has cleared. 

Shot from my lofted bed (the other tank is actually under my bed!):










Rotala Najenshan:










Close up of "forest." You can see micropea, riccia, and how thin my taiwan moss is. I heard it's better to plant it thin?










Full tank:


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## lildark185 (Jul 7, 2006)

Now that the water's clearer, the rocks look a lot brighter. To comment on the river you are trying to attain; if you shifted the whole layout of rocks on the left side of the tank so it would face more diagonally (the rock on the farthest left would be near the front left corner), you'd probably be able to make a longer river. By doing that, it would essentially break up the "wall" of stones you have lined up and create a small gap between the rocks on the left and right so that it would "welcome" you to whole tank. Thats just my opinion. 

On a different note, you have some very artistic skills. How did you create the aquasketch? That and you must have a very big dorm room (assuming its your dorm room) to be able to fit two tanks in there. I didn't even bother to bring a tank to my dorm since it'd be a hassle to take back home and whatnot.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

The idea letting the river move to the left side of the aquascape is certainly interesting (though would be difficult to change). I see many things that doing that would strengthen. However, my main concern with rivers/water features in layouts is that they often come accross as an after-thought. My intention was to not allow this to happoen, as scapes with streams too close to the edge of the aquarium always seem unbalanced to me. The sand is the brightest part of the aquascape, and moving it to a location that's off to the side (not in line with focal points) can cause problems when it comes to the viewer's eyes. However, I'm sure it could be done well-- I just haven't seen an example of it yet. There's a limit to how many risks/experiments I want to do in the same layout. 

Some of my aquasketches are purely the result of drawing using a Wacom tablet, and then running the finished drawing through the Photoshop water-color filter. Usually, I like to use photos to make "pallets" in photoshop-- ie, by making a pallet by sucking up all the colors from a photo, it's possible to have a better idea of what colors one should use. This is especially useful when drawing wood! You probably don't know this, but wood is not just brown, it's also purple, green, blue, orange, yellow, gray and pink depending what part of it you're looking at!

This sketch is even more manipulation, and less drawing. I wasn't feeling particularly hard-working when I did this one, so instead of drawing (in the normal sense) I used a function of photoshop to design paint-brushes that are the same shape as the plants (I made 6 different "moss" brushes, a R. Najenshan brush, and the computer already has brushes designed for grass), then use the Clone Stamp with some photos to draw in the plants. This works really well, but still takes a lot of work and a sensitive hand. Especially when drawing the stem plants, one should pay close attention to how much pressure one is applying to the drawing pad. Rocks and wood still have to be drawn by hand, and there's no helping it. Clone stamp doesn't work for those either because of lighting conditions, desired texture locations, and other factors probably will be very different from any photo you'll find. Hand-drawing hardscape works really well anyway so I prefer to do that.

Also, care should be given when designing the brushes. It takes some drawing skill and attention to detail but the finished effect is nice. Larger-leaved plants or plants with "crowns" are not as easy to use this with-- anubias is pretty impossible. Hmmm . . . maybe I should do a tutorial on this? But then again, a method that requires expensive software (Photoshop CS), expensive hardware (my INTUOS pad runs over $200), and over 3 hours of time (this sketch took me 3 hours even with short cuts, some I've done were 10+) probably would not be popular for most people . . .


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## lildark185 (Jul 7, 2006)

Sounds like its pretty tedious work, but I'm sure you enjoy it. My suite-mate has a drawing pad and he's told me about the uses of it since he's into art and he works on the school's weekly magazine. 

In any event, its not so much that the river is a would be an after-thought, but the fact that theres the "wall", especially on the left side and the way it's arranged. The lack of depth in the river and the rocks make it seem like a cave/barrier (similar to what Kelley said) and the more I look at the most recent picture, I am drawn more and more to the "cave". As I've said, moving the rocks diagonally invites the viewer to everything in the tank. As for the risks/experiments, no risk no gain right?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Risk fail, screwy tank.  

Kidding aside, I do feel that the moving the river in a direction away from the middle of the lay out does draw the eye to the edge of the tank-- which is not good. The eye follows the river, which is bright. 

As I said to Kelley, the depth of the river should be improved either by a lower sand level (revealing more of the rock at the river edge) or sloping it (has a similar effect) which I plan on trying after the tank settles a bit. You wouldn't know with the sand covering it, but I had planned some very careful rockwork that's unfortunately been covered up.

As for the "barrier"-- I don't feel that way. This is probably a result of my Hawaii bias. In Hawaii, water always runs from the top of the mountain to the sea-- rivers are like that, but in Hawaii where the whole island is one big mountain, this is especially felt. The movement of waterfalls down the mountain through ridges to feed streams. To me, it feels very natural to have a stream flowing from a mountain. The rocks in this layout are also built with this idea in mind. With a shallower stream, I think this sense will come out stronger. Right now the stream is proportionately "too big"-- much larger than my initial plan. When I take sand out, it should appear much smaller.


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## |squee| (Feb 3, 2005)

This is really a fresh look at planted tanks. It reminds us that everything need not be Amano. I agree with your comment posted in the other forum about how recent Amano scapes all tend to look the same.

Nice work! Your tank is the first in which I've seen vertical branches used and is pleasing to the eyes.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Terence. If that other forum follows through with those discussions, I'll be impressed.

I am greatful for the compliment in being original. I think I would say even this scape shows Amano's influence-- however to me what's important is that we should "stand on the shoulders of giants" in order to attain new heights, not to simply repeat work that's been done.


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

Steven_Chong said:


> Full tank:


I'm glad that you've now been able to get full pictures up.

IMO the hardscape looks to be overpowering. I do not get the impression of a river. My eyes are always focusing on the 'cliff' effect you have. Sometimes I have to force myself to look at the rest of the tank.

Just my .02


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

apistaeasy said:


> I'm glad that you've now been able to get full pictures up.
> 
> IMO the hardscape looks to be overpowering. I do not get the impression of a river. My eyes are always focusing on the 'cliff' effect you have. Sometimes I have to force myself to look at the rest of the tank.
> 
> Just my .02


I think it really depends if you duplicating an actual scene or trying to create something as pleasing to look at as possible, probably both. In either case, I give you alot of credit for trying new things and sharing them here.

That being said, if your trying to create something as pleasing as possible than yes IMO the hardscape is overpowering. It's tough to put all that in, in a small space. Perhaps if the branches were arranged in an ascending random tight pattern going up around the right front corner and left rear corner leaving some of the rock scape to stand on it's own it might be a little easier to absorb. If you ever visited a museum and viewed the dioramas (replication of a geographic location i.e. rainforest) they are experts in creating incredible depth in a small space. They can make you feel like your in a branch of a tree right in the middle of a forest and at the same time overlooking a lake that appears to be hundreds of feet below.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I have to agree that the hardscape is (currently) over-powering. I still think though that this power will be lost as the moss grows in more thickly. Right now it is very thin (barely noticable in the photo really). But it is attached to every stick, and also to much of that powering "cliff face." Try to envision a bush of moss covering the largest center stone, moss falling down off of some other stone edges, and instead of sticks, full-covered trees of moss. That might help in envisioning what I envision as the final result.

I also agree that the river does not have a good feel to it right now-- but I will try to lower the sand soon, and hopefully that should help. There is a lot of mulm under the substrate (remnants of last semester) and I'm wary to mess with the substrate toop much.



> Perhaps if the branches were arranged in an ascending random tight pattern going up around the right front corner and left rear corner leaving some of the rock scape to stand on it's own it might be a little easier to absorb.


House, thanks for the help but I don't really understand this description. I'm not sure how you could, but could you try to explain it more simply (for my stupid self ).


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## Aquaspot (Jan 19, 2006)

This is another great piece of art. We are almost certain to feature it on our website in a new column about scaper's tanks. Maybe you can send us a shot once it's done up.

You are right about the moss - tying it thin will get you the thick growth. Trim a little when you start seeing new growth on the moss. They will grow out even thicker.
The plants will fill out soon and strike a balance with the hardscape pretty soon.


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

_Perhaps if the branches were arranged in an ascending random tight pattern going up around the right front corner and left rear corner leaving some of the rock scape to stand on it's own it might be a little easier to absorb. _

It's not you it's me. I wrote it in such a way it would be difficult for anyone to follow. Let's take the group of branches occupying the right front in the above picture. If you could have a few of them remain in the front and have the others work there way around the right corner going up the hill and then around the back of the rocks. You would have to have enough branches so they aren't single file, but would appear as trees randomly existing in a forest, but in a tighter pattern than they are now. Same thing with the back left. Have some of them work their way around the left corner and down toward the front without completely abandoning their positioning. Again just my observation and you might be going by something you saw in an actual scene somewhere.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Aquaspot-- Thanks for the tips on the moss grooming, and I'll be sure to keep you updated. 

House-- Ooh. Thank, now I think I understand. Since these sticks are free to move, I'll try playing with them more as the moss on them grows in. I think the main problem is finding places for the R. Najenshan. Continuing the trees of course give a continuous to the forest, but finding the right spots for the R. Najenshan "highlights" is difficult. What I might do is (as the moss thickens out) try moving some sticks into the areas you mentioned and instead of moving R Najenshan, just allow them to mix-- that'd probably give a more realistic impression anyway.


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## jassar (Jul 30, 2006)

This is a really great looking tank! it has a bright future, and the reason for this is the kinda new idea...

by the way, nice sketch (^-^)


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## Dabolox (Jan 5, 2007)

Absolutely amazing... the tank & the picture...


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## southernflounder (Nov 5, 2006)

What lights are you using on this ADA 60?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thx guys

Southernflounder-- 2x 55w PC fixture from Jalli

right now running at 9hrs 55w with a 3hr 110w burst in the middle . . . hope it works . . .


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## FAAO (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi,

Great job! The placing wood is very expressive and remember me a forest.


Keep us updated!

Regards,

Filipe Oliveira


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Bit of an update:










From my sitting at my desk:










I'll try to get some close-ups up


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

The shot from sitting at the desk brings out the path really nice


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

I guess it's time to get dirty and do some lily pipe cleaning. haha


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Hahahaha!!! True that John, I need to find a place in my heart that is less lazy. :lol:


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Looking great Steven.

The rocks are looking less dominant all the time, guess your vision was spot on!  

The bridge looks good too. Anything in there to walk across it yet?


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## apistaeasy (Jul 16, 2004)

The hard scape has been softened by the new plant growth so much I thought you had done a total re-design. Looks great.


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## jassar (Jul 30, 2006)

Looks awsom man! now all what you need is some tree tops, lol...


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

white areas are where the moss was super-glued to the rock










old-school ADA 










Thanks guys

ed-- nothing yet. I'm starting to see some thread algae and green dust though, so I'm thinking of getting some Amanos and otos this week.

apistaeasy-- I think I can attribute this mostly to the moss growing in on the main rock. It wasn't so easy to see at initial shots, but it's really starting to go now. 

jassar-- right you are


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## jassar (Jul 30, 2006)

super glued? can you tell me some more details? because I've just started a new tank and any new ( or old ) trick is much welcomed (^_^)


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Hey, how do you guys think green cabomba wood look planted in some places in the background?

I'm just giving it some thought.


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Stick to thin leaved rotalas, they are the best. Cleaning my 10g and my 40 lily pipes was a hassle this weekend... took me from 1-5pm......


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## elliott89 (Jan 21, 2007)

Use the tropica rotala ''green'' that looks really good...i don't like the look of cambomba much..kinda weed like and its damn hard to grow!!!

Awesome Aquascape..very very impressive

Elliott


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Well I'm going to disagree with the others and say go for the cabomba! I really like it!

I'd go for the yellow cabomba (Cabomba piauhyensis) if you can though, the pinkish stems look great with the light green and I find it easier to grow too.
The red species is nice too, but harder to grow for me.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

What I really want is a dark green stem plant. If there was a good dark green stem plant that imitated the texture of trees well, I might have skipped the moss-sticks altogether. Now I'm thinking maybe I could do with green cabomba to back up the moss but, I don't like that idea too much. I kind of like it now, but I'm just tossing ideas out for consideration. I know Cabomba's not a very popular plant and it doesn't look all that ideal for my desires either but it's the closes thing I can think of-- or else just be patient and hope out the moss sticks work out as well as I hope.


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## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Mayaca fluvitalis, Myriophyllum mattogrossense, Egeria (not sure the species but turbomkt has it in his nano thread), Najas guadalupensis, Eriocaulon sp. stem type not rosette type or Certaphyllum submersom.....?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks for most of the suggestions Dennis, but with most green stems (including these) I just feel like they're more "light green"? Well, I guess Cabomba is too actually. Come to think of it, moss can go pretty light if it wants to . . . *sigh*


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## knocks (Jan 26, 2005)

Hi Steven
Amazing work.

Regards,

Luís Moniz


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Luis 

I'm starting to get some algae now-- a bit of green dust on the rocks and glass, and a bit of filomentous and the tiniest bit of BBA (gah!!) growing on some of the moss. So, I decided to go to the shop and get some back-up. I dispatched 5 Amanos and 2 otocinclus onto the front lines.










God speed.

Aside from algae eaters though, I couldn't help myself and ended up buying some fish. For a while now I've been debating what fish should go in this layout. I always knew I wanted some kind of cyprinid-- working this hard to recreate a Japanese/Asian bamboo forest, and then using South American fish would just rub me the wrong way. I also new I didn't want anything too flashy.

Summary: I wanted an asian fish that would communicate the feeling of the wild-- a cool fast moving stream running in a mountain forest.

In the aquasketch, I originally used emerald eyes again but . . .



















I decided to start with a trio of ordinary White Cloud Minnows. I've played with the idea that WCM might be the perfect fish for this tank for a while, and yesterday I couldn't help myself, and took the plunge.

I'm glad I did. I have NEVER picked a fish so . . . no, that's not what I want to say. I want to say:

Never, has a fish I chose done a better job of communicating the spirit of an aquascape than me.

It's like this fish knows this forest better than I do. Their brown bodies and auburn fins, plus it's excitable/playful personality, lend it a rustic attitude and the feeling of a "forest creature," I think. It's quick swimming and flshy white cin tips express the movement of the mountain stream. It's also stunning to see them stretch their fins and dance together over the riccia meadows.

Ok, I'm going a bit poetic, sorry for that. It's just that these fish fit so damn good. They really don't deserve the name, "Poor man's neon." For me, this fish has awakened a layout that neons would have weakened. Anyway, does anyone think the fish might be a bit big? That's the only concern I had before getting them. The layout might seem bigger if it had a school of sparrow rasbora instead. But now that I look at it, the WCMs really don't seem that big, and so sparrow rasboras might have just disappeared completely. I think I'm going to get 3-4 more WCMs, and maybe a second fish species to compliment it. I was thinking if not emeralds, try find a second duller, smaller fish. Rasbora kubotai? Something like that.


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## Little (Oct 18, 2005)

Hello,
This aquascape is really amazing...
It could be probably better: I don't think that the background plant is the better choice...
I would love to see it with Potamogeton gayi and/or Lagarosiphon madagascariensis...

The fishes are a good choice... Fishes like Nannostomus espei would have also been agood choice in your aquascape...

However really nice job!


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I think you could not have picked a better fish for that tank!


I seen long fin white cloud minnows the other day and those look pretty nice too!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks guys 

Little-- Lagarosiphon and pomatageton eh? You have a very interesting taste in plants! Most people don't appreciate those 2 beautiful species! For this scape though, I think they're a bit too translucent for what I'm trying to do. 

I also agree with you that Nannostomus espei would probably look very good in this tank, but I'm going to try to hold to only asian fish (with the exception of otos used for algae eating).

Eklikewoah-- The meteor minnow are really bad ass. If only the young developed the fins sooner, it would become a more popular fish (it's a "sleeper"). I think this scape though looks best with the wild form minnows though.


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## FAAO (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi Steven,

Looking now to your tank, the glossostigma is growing very tall and don't seems to be the best choice. Perhaps eleocharis, on this place it'll be better to mold and give the best combination with riccia. What do you think?

Regards,

Filipe Oliveira


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

The glosso does seem a bit off, and I've heard this from others too. I think I'll end up replacing it with something . . .


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## Tankman (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm really so impressed with your aquascape. Just battled a Blue Green Algae prob - dosed the usual antibiotics (Erythromycin) and things hv improved - slime has gone and "dust-like" stuff remains...
Well anyways, pls do keep us updated... M really impressed with this very natural looking scape!


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

Steven_Chong said:


> The glosso does seem a bit off, and I've heard this from others too. I think I'll end up replacing it with something . . .


Might it not work better with just Riccia? I think it would be much better as your forest floor on its own. Decided on your 'other' shoal fish yet?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Tankman 

I'm thinking about that now actually Ed. I did a trim of the foreground last night, and after seein git trimmed I think I might just do that. It's simple, easy, and I think It'd look alright. I'm thinking of covering it with riccia, but letting glosso poke up in some places-- just not let it have its own section like now. Still not solid on the second fish.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

*Roll-Eyes*

I've been updating this thread excessively recently, but seeing as I'm still quite a beginner when it comes to developing a tank over a long-period of time (and in my book "long period" is 3 months+), every little thing I probably make too big a deal of. :hihi:

I did the first real trim on the stem plants this last weekend.

Before:










After:










Hi right side trees! Long time no see! I guess your moss is growing well despite the R. Najenshan masses! :heh:

For those newer members who don't know much about trimming stems, I'll relay a bit of info here I've learned form older members here:

1-Pay close attention when you trim, don't do it haphazardly.

2-For the first trim, trim as low to the base of the plant as you can. Toss out the top stuff/sell it to others.

3-By cutting low to the base, you will develop branching of the stems lower to the base-- ie a bushier plant. Actually, I could have cut the rotalas even lower, but I want to keep some "leg" visible, because the plant is supposed to represent bamboo which is not as bushy as a tree. If I were making the impression of trees with Rotala sp. Green, I would have cut even lower.

4-With each successive trim, cut it at a somewhat higher poing. This will give you more and more bushing building off the bushing you create with the older trims.

5-When you get to the point where you want your stems, just cut them as needed to hold their shape. Or else do take the final photos, and tear down the aquascape to start again!! :heh:

Oh and: _For the guy who voted this thread a "1," if you haven't given me your criticism, I'd appreciate hearing it. It'd be more useful that way. Thanks_


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## jassar (Jul 30, 2006)

Looking really great man! your images are so clear as well.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thx Jassar 

Quick Update:










I think I've really achieved the illusion of a Japanese mountain side.  My Japanese friends even came over and exclaimed, "Eh! Yama mitai!" (Eh! Looks like a mountain!)

Now I'm kind of half-half though about whether the final image should be of a mountain or a forest. I now know this scape could go either way. Hmmm . . . well, when in doubt, get photos of both! XD

This tank will be left alone for the next week while I'm gone on vacation. I hope everyone lives. :lol:


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Well I could definitely see what your talking about. Those moss topped branches definitely does it, but I would need a closer shot to see if the illusion is real.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

Looks amazing! 

The room shot really gives it the nature in glass look!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

House-- the stems are a bit messy coming in form their trim so not worthy of a cleaned up shoot. I did just plan on posting this same image but close-up to the tank, but . . . well, the photo-quality (I just quick-snapped them while sitting at my desk) is SO bad I couldn't get myself to just post it. XD I'll try to get better ones soon.

eklikewhoa-- Thanks! I know some people like to see where the tank is, so I made it like that. ^^


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## Leonard (Mar 4, 2007)

your tank is very nice!!! 

It was nice to let the Rotala grow up to the surface, when the branches are lower, cowered with moss =) On your last photo (after triming) the layout looked to flat, on the top, same level on Rotala as branches, not at all nicer.
Also I think some Bettas would do fine in your aquarium, or black molly (eat some alges).
By the way: Really nice background!!! =) I like it!

EDIT: I think Bolbitis heudelotii, Lilaopsis macloviana (maybe to birght colour?) or Vallisneria nana would be nice in your tank.


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

honto da!!! yama mitai!! sweet as usual steven..


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Leonard-- I think that's the fault of how even my trimming was, but that's partly due to it being the first trim so very low (and partly due to my crappy trimming skills). I'll try to make a better trim next time . . .

bolbitis-- if this were a 90cm instead of a 60cm, I'd agree. I might be able to get it to look good at the photoshoot, but the judges would think it was impossible to maintain in the long run (because it gets so big).

lileopsis-- there's an interesing idea. I'll think about possibly getting some.

Vallisneria-- I'm not a fan of tall grasses in a very realistic looking aquascape. If this were a nature-fantasy like Amano's branchy layouts, than it looks great. Mine is a bit too realistic for that, so if you add vals it seems odd that there are grasses taller than the trees. :lol:


Ranmastone-- Hey dude!!!!  I hope I'm not being annoying because I know you're not in a position where you can scape easily-- but I really miss your works!! T-T


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

Very nice setup.

Myriophyllum>Cabomba (IMHO) - will look "branchier". The more I keep Cabomba, the less I like it (I guess I have too little light).

Whiteclouds are awesome fish. I was going to suggest Harlequin rasboras, but I think your choice is excellent too.

Is there a color imbalance, or is the picture (post trim) showing a distinctly yellow drop checker?

I hope you have better luck w/ Otos & Amanos eating hair algae than I've had.


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## gnob (Feb 8, 2007)

steven in the stages of your tank..(all of them are great btw)
i like this the most..










I agree with the comment the new plant growth softened the scape so much that it looks like a new scape...

if only the moss have grown faster the illusion would be complete..

an awesome tank with an amazing scape..
great work man..


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Maybe I better trim the moss too soon . . . lol



















Gah!! algae!! :heh:


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Steven, 

What do you attribute the algae to? Since you brought it up. How long does it take for the lily pipes to look that way?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Attribute the algae to? Hmm, no idea really. 

Probably some sort of deficiency seeing as it kicked in while I was gone for a week. I got back, removed as much as I could by hand (wow, there was a lot of algae when I got back-- lot of R. Najenshan too), and got back on dosing the small amount of K2SO4 and step 1 I usually dose. Adding excel to that until I get it licked. along with 50 or so wild cherries from Hawaii. Hopefully I'll see the algae gone and dead soon. :heh:

How long for a lily pipe to look like that?\

5 months of neglect and never cleaning it? :heh: Well, more actually. I've never scrubbed the thing out since I first set the tank up for the first time last september.


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## Afroturf (Apr 15, 2004)

Wow, Steven i've never been a huge fan of this scape compaired to others you have created but i think that now the moss has really filled in it looks great. You may not have wanted the moss to be so dominant, as it now masks most of the hardscape, i don't know, but i think it looks great algae and all.


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## slickwillislim (Oct 11, 2005)

I know how hard it can be to come back to tank after vacation. Atleast none of the plants seem to have suffered much.

I noticed you have a little U. gibba in the last picture with the algae and the shrimp. I advise you try and remove it before it completely infests your moss. 

I like the progress. 

There are a couple pieces of orange colored gravel in the front under the riccia and glosso. It is kind of distracting from the green foreground. 

Other than that I think its really improved. The moss needs a little trim since the rocks now look like giant moss balls. That can work, but as you have mentioned before to much moss is not a good thing.

And clean that lilly pipe.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

An update:

I'm getting closer to finishing this tank. I think it's already matured to the point where I'm not sure how long I will be able to control these plants! @[email protected]

This means I have about a month to go in which I will be trying to perfect this scape. I took some pictures this morning, but also bought new fish-- which will be added, and I'll try taking photos again tomorrow.


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## ed seeley (Dec 1, 2006)

I may well be going against the majority here and might have missed something (many things probably!), but IMHO at the moment this just a mass of plants to me. There isn't a lot of what I would call definition or contrast there and you've lost the hardscape. The growth has almost completely masked the wonderful vertical accents that the sticks provided and there isn't any contrast in colour (which I think you intended, so fair enough) or leaf shape. Even the rocks, that were too harsh in the beginning, are now too masked and softened IM(very less than an expert)O.
I agree with gnob; the picture he showed in his last post is superb. The sticks arise out of an undergrowth of riccia and the stem plants give the feel of stands of bamboo. The rock is dominant, but an attractive feature and the stream is the highlight of the whole thing, with the little bridge over it. It's lost that for me at the moment.
There's a really great scape in there (that I don't think I could achieve even if I tried!), just give it a really good haircut! Especially the moss!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Ed, I can definitely understand your assessment, and I have thought it a couple times myself. However, it's a rather complicated problem, and I'm fighting with a couple of things here-- it's a good thing the tank has come to maturity as quickly as it has, because it means I basically have a whole month to figure out how to go about best presenting it.

Some issues:
-Computer/photo issues: I'm trying and working hard, even pulling some more complicated photoshop tricks, but no matter despite my efforts so far, the light greens and dark greens just don't contrast each other in photo as much as in real life. the camera ends up muddling them in colors that are too similar.

-There really IS a lot of softening that has happened. I got to face the fact that this isn't a scape where contrasts are as obvious as red v. green, and in shape too, in designing a mountain side where the various parts often grow to a uniform height and shape . . . the shape and form for this motif isn't as sheer as things like iwagumi. In the mountainside in my mind, there is even LESS rock visible, and the whole side is dark green trees and light green bamboo.

-Coming to the third and major thing that I'm fighting with: The fact that the scape _looks so damn perfect._ What I mean that is it _looks like_ the motif, to a stunning degree. It gives me the sense and feelings of the motif, and because of that carries a huge power over me.

Gah, it's a similar issue that I ended up dealing with at the end of Hau Coast. My rendering of the place I imagine is so perfect that I don't feel able to change it-- it's exactly what I wanted it to be. Yet, even if the rendering is perfect, the scape itself may be lacking, and more pointedly I face an issue of a disconnection between my work and the audience.

Ie, it can be seen in two ways:
1- My audience not being able to appreciate the scape because they lack the memories to understand it.
2- (The way I see it) My work being unable to _take_ my audience to the place I want to take them.

Fortunately unlike Hau coast though, I've got time-- and I guess I'll just have to muster up the determination to make some changes to the way I'm working this in order to somehow express what I'm trying to express. I'm not sure if it'll be in lighting/editing (somehow work the perameters to get more contrasting colors in the photo), timing (maybe I just got to take the photo the plants all the way above the trees, or else super hack them back), or adding more bare hardscape (the one I'm probably most wary of because in my mind the place I'm imagining has so little exposed hardscape).










This was the sketch I made, and the main point of this scape was in combining Najenshan with moss (the foreground I just kind of winged, just to fill in the scape honestly, it's not the important part to me). It's grown in very much like this drawing now, but where does it differ? Maybe in the lack of any open space.

I this growth cycle (ie, let the stems grow to the top and photo again to get another "forest" version), I'll super-hack the middle area to make some negative space.

Bleh, I'll try lots of things. Like I said, I got a month, and despite my crappy presentation and photography, it is a breathtaking sight in real life. I've got to figure out how to show it now.


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## Aquaspot (Jan 19, 2006)

Steven, glad to see this scape maturing fast.

About the scape, where do you want to create a focus? Personally, I think that's where it's lacking attention. Otherwise, very healthy and thick growth.

Ben


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## dstephens (Nov 30, 2005)

I was watching my wife paint the bedroom this weekend, which is something I do well and don't know how I got away with, but I noticed how the paint was not creating the kind of impact or hoped for change until she began "cutting" into the corners and creating depth to the angles with the paint. I don't know if that really conveys how my mind interpreted what my eyes were seeing but the entire painted room was nothing more than new paint to me. But when she went deep into the edges and corners, boom, I could see the impact she was hoping for when she decided to re-paint the room.. It was a stunning effect in the end. 

I look at your scape and I see the greens you refer to, but faintly, because they don't really take shape or create angles that my eyes are drawn to. Have you given any thought to a deep cut to the back somewhere off center, but enough to create the depth, perhaps sense of a slash into the trees and give it enough time to begin the new, supple growth brought on by a deep cut. What I see through your thread is the initial attempt to create as you stated, something from your memory, with the tree shapes, stones, low green growth for bushes, hedges, etc. and today, the defintion has faded. Maybe the deep cut into the mass of plants, of course done carefully not to damage the plants, but create a sense of depth and then the new growth, will bring it back to what you had hoped for but has been somewhat obscured by the fantastic growth of your plants. 

It seems like so many of the aquascapes that score well create that sense of depth, even with smaller tanks. It is accomplished I think in many cases doing what you have done, which is to manage the maximum growth and health of the plants until they reach a point where you can begin to shape and contour the depth, height, thickness, etc. by trimming with the end in mind. Whatever you decide to do, the plants look wonderful and you have a lot to work with. Good luck.

Darrell


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks for the help Darrel, I'll keep working on it. Actually, because you said that, I've decided that after I get some photos with the stems up to the surface, I'm going to hack all the r. najenshan in the middle almost to the bottom. I've made some big changes already actually, you'll see tomorrow. 

Ben-- prob is, the motif was to make like, one slice of a continuous mountain range, so I wanted the layout rather continuous left to right . . . hmm . . . well, I'll try making some variations on this. I could make a focal point if I tried . . . :lol:


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Where's the orange? red? not even pink?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I know R. Najenshan is pretty variable. Mine generally is light green with pink under the the leaves closer to the light, with some leaves going all pink near the light. For this scape . . . definitely didn't want the blood-shot red of ADA's grand champ, but pretty much anything else is fine with me. R. Najenshan is fast and undemanding I find.


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Like Steven said, I believe the layout will take shape gradually as he figures out in the next few weeks or so months. Keep it up and do what you do, man 

I think right now it looks more like a statue hidden in the marble stone. You just need to chisel it out and it will reveal itself in time~ Forgot which philospher or sculptor said something similar; the statue is already there, he just helped bringing it out. From what I can tell, your layout is not too far off from your design. It will come out soon enough


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Just meant it need a tiny bit of splash to it. Not anything dramatic as the green already is, but orange would be nice.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Ummm, I think that basically, Steve is trying to let the plants grow out so he can go back in a few weeks and trim it to perfection. I think the problem is that he already sees the end result in his mind's eye, and we can't yet.

Besides, if anyone's been on a walk in late May, there isn't a ton of reds or pinks or oranges. It is beautiful because it is varying shades of green. Check out the title of the scape ladies and gentlemen. It isn't called "early fall."

Go get'em steven! I'll be very interested to see the end result. No doubt it'll be close to perfect!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Ok, here's me trying today:










Zebra Danio 









Pearl Danio and White Cloud Minnow 









Group shots:





































And a random photo from the base of Mt. Fuji that is not quite, but similar to the type of place I based this aquascape off of . . . I'm just proud of this photo because I just finished editing it after figuring out how to use layer masks better . . .


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## Sudi (Feb 3, 2005)

I really like the tank, the only part that I thought was the weak point is that the slope from front toward the back is to steep. Other than that, great job!


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## MrHarris (Mar 19, 2005)

Great stuff Steven.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Sudi-- too much slope? That's one I haven't heard before-- so that makes it some valuable feedback. Thanks!

Mrharris-- thanks for the compliment 

I tried a complete different process in taking and editing the full photo for this aquascape-- both to make it more "ADA-ish" in the finish, and to try and pop out features and generally make more atmosphere in the scape. I'll elaborate later.


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## gf225 (Mar 26, 2005)

Beautiful, Steven. I actually like the steepness, it adds a sense of drama and dynamic, that brings me to my next point.... 

Inspired fish selection too, it's great to see some bread and butter fish used so well. I expect their activity adds much to the aquascape in real life.

Stunning photography also.

Is this the final shoot?


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## Norbert Sabat (Jun 26, 2004)

Looking good so far  ...but for me this layout is too fully :heh:

Nice photo (tank and this landscape)


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

George-- I've got a month to keep trying and trying  I'll try lots of things

Norbert-- Thanks  One of the things I'll try is removing some of the sticks, and really cutting down the stems 1/3rd from the right to make 2 mounts. We'll see how that looks.


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## chester (Feb 22, 2005)

So far, so good! Still I hope its gonna be better  Good luck!


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## Leonard (Mar 4, 2007)

It looks really good! 

Maybe you have a little bit too much sticks with too much moss on them, it looks so unorganized and I'm getting a bit of interuppted of them. Don't you think they also take to much room? Cut away some moss and put more sticks in to it.

Nice with Danios, but they really are active!!! I have Leoparddanios and they never are nice in photos =) never calm still.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

*Using a Layer Mask*

I've had some PMs asking for help with photo editing. I was planning to share what I learned anyway, so I'll get to it. First, I'll start off by explaining how to use a tool I myself just learned how to use. 

Layer masks:










Here's the original photo of the tank, pretty drab. The camera really sucks at picking up differences in green, which I've mentioned a couple times. There's other elements and colors going on in the photo, so the camera's distinction between different greens is not so good. For that, I figured out I could use layer masks to restore the distinction myself.










Start off by copying and pasting the image again on itself in a new layer. From there, you change the settings (color balance, hue/saturation, brightness.contrast etc.) to get it where you want it. Then, create a mask in the layer, and fill it in black. The black mask will make your new layer invisible. Then, use the paint tool, and in the mask, paint over the areas you want to restore with white.










This will be the result. From here, you can edit the main photo, or else make seperate layers and masks for different parts.

I ended up with this:










I've got class now, but I'll be back with cleaning up this photo to its final form, and making the blue background (handy if you don't have cardboard and spray paint handy).


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## turtlehead (Nov 27, 2004)

Selective color and levels do the same trick. Which is what I do


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I like layer masks because I can play with it in detail a lot. Having a tablet with high sensitivity and playing with things like opacity and brush settings, it's possible to control it even more I think. Lots of ways to do the same thing though.


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## FelixAvery (Mar 29, 2007)

well my camera sucks for color, all the greens come out yellow, and everythign else is red!
so i use iphoto to change it, its really easy, just sliders


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I've been going up and down, back and forth thinking about this tank for a while. I've been so unsure of my thinking that I decided I'd call for some backup--

I'd e-mail my high school art teacher (the one who taught me how to think like an artist) and begged for guidance. :heh:

I kind of want to share what he wrote back:



> Hey Steven,
> It was great hearing from you. As usual, you have challenged my thinking and here is some things I have been contemplating...
> On your first question...
> 
> ...


Mmm, I'm not surprised Pete couldn't give me the end-all answer to the othere v. own opinion question. That one's up to personal feel like he said.

I must admit though that I'm happy Pete's art students were able to get my motif so clearly . . . it makes me feel happy, accomplished I guess. Opinions of outside artists can be really useful, since theit opinions aren't influenced by Amano or other aquascaping cultures. Especially valuable for someone who doesn't want his work to be Amano-copying.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Trim plants, and try again. :heh:


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## Aquaspot (Jan 19, 2006)

This looks more like a winner.  

Ben


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Steven..
I think with the new trim the tank does look better..
The trim does give it more dimension and with the colour scheme on the greens.. i think it would work out to be a great tank.
I do however feel that the moss on sticks?? well.. those have to be trimmed closer to the sticks so that you can see more nuances of the wood that is present there. 
Presently..you can see the stick shaped wood.. but only the topish sides...being able to see more, again, would give the tank a little more substance..

I enjoy your tanks alot...just cos.. i think like me..they are more "how we see nature and try to put them in a tank in our own vision" kinda tanks. Don't get me wrong.. i think amano does superbly awesome tanks..but that is how HE sees his nature...and i think they are beautiful and inspirational. Keep truckin man....there will always be others that see what you see...its always like this being less "mainstream".


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Ranmastone. I know what you mean by our work compared to Amano's.

I will eventually trim the moss, but mostly because I have to. lol

This isn't a forest scene after all-- it's a mountain scene, so I just feel that the shape of sticks shouldn't be made too obvious-- because the shape of trees wasn't at all obvious in the place I saw. I know that trimming the moss closer would make it look good-- it's just, not be my layout anymore. 

Maybe I'll do it for just the closer trees on the right side because "they're closer"

And I'm still am kind of heart-torn on the trim in the middle.
-on one hand, I just love looking at the spot I trimmed-- it looks, so so so far away . . . yay!!
-on the other hand . . . the other one just resonates with my memories the tiniest bit better.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

Looking real good!

Do you think it would give the scape more effect if you trimmed so that the trees are bit more defined? Not so much to where there is gaps in between but just thin it between them.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I dunno, Steve. I actually preferred it the other way, before the trim. It looked more....natural? Maybe I am a little bit biased. My tanks usually stay slightly overgrown. HA! 

You can't please all the people all the time!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I think exactly what I've been saying-- that I'm trying to stay true to this:










I've been not posting a photo of the actual type of place, because all of mine are crappy like this-- from being taken by a point-and-shoot by a me that was much less skilled, and also still suffering from jet-lag.

-no distinctions of tree branches/trunks
-no breaks in the trees
-no iwagumi like rock face exposed

And don't try to argue with me that there are, because this aquascape is meant to be farther away than this photo is-- it's just the best photo I could find.

and believe it or not, this photo is crappy only by my own fault-- the sites of these places, were utterly breath taking. This scape is for the feelings I had then. If I have to be the only one who can feel them-- I'll be sad, but I guess that's just too bad . . .

I'm really trying to be open minded and listen to people and not act set-minded and stubborn-- but all I hear in most of the comments I'm getting just tells me-- make a scape like Amano's. Make a scape that's like everyone else's, and follows the norm of aquascaping.

Which I say-- no.

Edit: Donald, you're right. lol


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I think that your scapes can stand on their own without you having to justify them. All of these suggestions about trimming moss on the branches you have in your tank so you can see the wood is simply people trying to add their own personal tastes into something you created.

Not that it is necessarily wrong for people to do so. But, they don't have the same mental image that you do.

Nice photos! Looks like a beautiful place!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Donald, and you're right-- they should be able to go where they want! You're right that it's perfectly fine for them to think of it their way and have their own preference!

I look at Justin Law's Walking Aoyama and think Hawaii coastline even though he means Asian Stream! 

I'm just being a whiny baby-- and frustrated in my lack of skill in not being able to take people where I want to. Just ignore the ranting-- I'm just being selfish and whiny-- having a little tantrum. 

Maybe I should write my next "Aquascaping Philosophy" article about appreciating other people's work-- trying to go where they want to take you. It's like when I eat at an Italian restaurant--

Sure I want to put parmasean cheese on my Bolognese, but I ought to taste it the way it comes to me first in order to appreciate the work of the chef. XD

I'm just hoping that I'm also living by my own words and appreciating others work in the way I described just now-- I have the sinking suspician that I don't. 

edit: Though, there's nothing wrong with putting parmasean cheese on it after you try it. Though in this case it's more like the chef is eating it himself and he just made little sample dishes to hand out. :heh:


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I think I finished weighing the pros and cons of the 2 versions so far also:

sans-trim: Looks Taller-- it looks bigger in that it looks like an enormous towering mountain. It's more "steep." Not very depth-dimensional though.

with-trim: Looks Deeper-- that place where I cut just looks so far away, I love it. But, everything just doesn't feel as big in terms of height.

bare areas/thinner moss: they become trees, instead of mountain covered by trees.

Which is bigger, a tree or a mountain? Hmm . . . well, bigger isn't always better though. For this scape's motif though, it is. [/end tantrum] I think


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## Haeun (Oct 19, 2006)

It's how artists roll. 

We look at others' art, we look at our own, we try to understand what we're doing, and then we try to understand what other artists are doing. It's a continual learning process.  Seems like you're going through some learning times too, Steven.

I enjoy looking at this tank, and watching your thought process as you work on it.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I think that there are two sides that equally frustrate each other.

Steve, the artist, is trying to scape a place that made him feel some connection on an emotional level. He is being frustrated because the rest of us, artists and hobbyists in our own right, tend to look at the scape and rationalize how we would make it better. The two never will equate each other.

For example: the picture that Steve took of a certain scenic place that artistically inspired him. He is more familiar with that place because he has seen it first hand and knows the angles and depth and color alot better than we do. I look at it, and can appreciate the angles and depth and color, but I don't know what the place smells like, or feels like....I haven't heard noises of nature that I could associate that place with, etc. Steve has experienced those senses, and it brings out an inspiration of sorts, and he can feel this way because it has an emotional connection with him.

I see a nice picture of nature. Meh....!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, to varying degrees.

I hate ballet. It is way to "girly" for me to appreciate. I can appreciate the athleticism of the dancers, and the time they put in to practicing, but I'd rather watch a football game. My wife (and most people) love ballet because it is an artistic expression combined with the fluidity of movement. On the other hand, I love the shrimp in my tanks because I appreciate the delicate beauty of Nature. I am a biologist, so I really like watching certain behaviours of organisms and how they associate with their surroundings and other organisms. I know their internal makeup, how they reproduce, digest food, etc. My wife hate them because they remind her too much of spiders.

What can you do? Nothing. You cannot argue an emotion, or a piece of art that was inspired by an emotion. There is nothing the creator of said piece can do to rationalize his feelings to an audience, and the audience is not able to offer helpful criticism that may help the creator. You have to accept the piece as it is, and find your own inspiration and appreciation.

That's that.


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Actually i agree with Donald... until you showed the picture..i had a totally different idea on the kind of forested mountain you were trying to build...thats why i suggested trimming the moss a little more..

I have seen these kinds of forest before.. hell.. i live in a country surrouded by this kind of vegetation.. but i guess in my mind i was just thinking about soemthing else when i saw the early stages of your scape...its not that you weren't able to bring me to where you wanted me... its just that there are so many different kinds of environments in reality that i never thought of this one...sometimes my mind gets fixated on something and its just hard to re-think... 
I think thats what makes good aquascapers actually..or any artist for that instance..because when we focus.. we can see all the little details we want in our workpiece, we find the things that will fit, try them.. work them for colour, work them for texture, work them for depth..all because we can see and are all trying to make what we see in our minds come into real form. Thats another reason why you cannot get EVERYONE to go to where you have been before.. but when someone that has, sees your work.. BOOM.. he not only loves it.. he falls in love with it. I find thats what it is in most of my art pieces... the people that love it.. really do.. the ones that dont'' well.. its the "meh"..kinda response.."just a forest" or "just a tree" or "just a fish" kinda feeling.

Its good to see what you are trying to build..and i can understand where you're coming from now and clearly see what trimming of the moss on the sticks mean to the general scape..keep working on it.. i'd say your already pretty close..


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Diana-- Always learning  You're a college student (looked at your profile)? Maybe we should facebook. :heh:

Donald-- I totally understand-- I also, cannot stand watching Ballet. :heh: I've seen the nut cracker every year for the past 12 years-- and honestly, the only part I really enjoy is whatever part my little sister is dancing.  But seriously, you make good points, and in some ways, we cannot get what we want tall the time as artists.

Ranma-- I think this is the most typical type of scene in the Japanese countryside. I love them! The Japanese might take them for granted they're so common, but to me I thought they were incredibly beautiful types of scenes.

You're right that other people just have other agendas, other ideas, so you definitely can't get everyone to understand.

I think though, that for art and in everything else-- I'm very much a believer in the type of life philosphy I picked up while wrestling: Suck it up and work harder.

Yes it's true that I'm too tall and not stocky enough to reach the highest levels of wrestling, but in highschool, I sucked it up and worked harder.

In this case too-- it's true I can't get everyone to understand, but that shouldn't deter me from _trying_ (suck it up and work harder), because I might get better and better, and communicate to the audience better and better.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Steve, you have a fruitless goal! HA!

I guess it would be like my friend, who is a die-hard atheist (this could get me into trouble....IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE PEOPLE!), and me, who is a die-hard Catholic. We have been friends since early college; we hang out constantly, did a lot of drugs together (YIKES!), talked a lot of philosophy. Regardless, it remains that while he and I over time understand the points the other has concerning religious and non-religious views, after a ton of fighting about it. We agree to disagree.

I think that is what you have stumbled upon here. It shouldn't make you want to try any less, but you should really try just to please yourself. You are apparently, in the "upper echelon" in this art/hobby, so unless you are strictly asking for information that may help you (nobody knows everything), I would start becoming more self-satisfied with what you are able to do.

Don't discount people's opinions, but certainly don't discount your own either. Easier said then done, I understand, but art is an area where the creator's perfectionisms count, not the audiences.

Hey.....by the way, it's Thursday. Should you be somewhere drinking by now? HA!

To everyone else: I hope I didn't offend someone or rile you up too much. I'll go back to being humble now!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

That would be tonight Donald.  If I can get my homework done.  

Wise words my friend, I will try, as you said, to take more satisfaction in what I do. As you said, it's "a fruitless goal," so yes I can and will try, but as I go at it, you're right that I shouldn't get upset as easily knowing that it's an impossible goal.

IE-- go at it with the intent to get it, but knowing it's not gettable, carry a bit more satisfaction and happiness with what you do. Wise words.


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

Steven,

Its interesting to see how this has developed, and I have reserved comment until it has developed. I gotta tell you, this aquascape just hasn't done anything for me from the begining to now...

I think you have had too many sticks too randomly placed. When they were bare it just made the whole aquascape too dis jointed and chaotic, and when they are covered up with moss and whatever, they serve no purpose and the end result is just a solid mass of plants with little definition or contrast. Even the depth of field is lost. I can see the resemblence to the photo you are trying to re create, but I wonder why would you want to? Is a tree lined hillside in that context a pleasing thing to the eye? Is it three dimensional, does it have good contrast, focal points, and have various levels of detail? To me it doesn't. I think you can reach your goal with this aquascape if you put it more into a traditional design modle. If you want to create a tree lined mountain, make a mountain on one side of the tank with an open valley or field around it, or something to that affect. Anything to give it more definition and detail


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Well, now you made it sound too pointless! LOL!

Nothing is impossible.....just highly improbable that you would be able to dictate the certain emotional and nostalgic response to your audience. 

It was kinda like that with my drawings back in college. They were inspired by my grandmother's death by MS and bone cancer, and the consequential guilt I felt after she died. I felt a tempest of self-loathing, wrote a book, and started doing artwork from the book. That combined with becoming uber-familiar with HR Giger led to hours spent drawing frantically twisted and demented art up at the local Ram's Horn. I sold everything (except one) for good money. That's not to say that I was a pinnacle of perfection, just had a unique style. I was good at it, made some fair coin, and enjoyed the release it brought.

But I highly doubt that the people who would stop and stare at my "little doodles" really understood where I was mentally when I was drawing them. And there were also many that would either say, "You are very talented, but I would never buy that," or something to that effect. Now, I would probably give them an icy stare, but I always knew that I wasn't trying to please all the people that would pass by. I was trying to please myself.

Organic chemisry (HA!!) was similar. You could get 40% on a test, and that would be an "A." One person out of 75 students in that class understood what the professor was trying to convey. Everyone else may have done well on the curve, but still didn't know what the hell they were learning! To me, that would be an idication that the professor should have done a better job teaching, but I guess that he felt he was doing an adaquet job and never changed a thing! So, he felt emotionally comfortable with how he was teaching, and that's all that really mattered. He didn't care too much about his audience, and frankly, I don't blame him. He was way too damn smart for us troglobites!

Anyway, get your homework done buddy! Have fun at your kegger! And for the love of God, stay away from organic chemistry if you can!


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Robert Hudson said:


> Steven,
> 
> Its interesting to see how this has developed, and I have reserved comment until it has developed. I gotta tell you, this aquascape just hasn't done anything for me from the begining to now...
> 
> I think you have had too many sticks too randomly placed. When they were bare it just made the whole aquascape too dis jointed and chaotic, and when they are covered up with moss and whatever, they serve no purpose and the end result is just a solid mass of plants with little definition or contrast. Even the depth of field is lost. I can see the resemblence to the photo you are trying to re create, but I wonder why would you want to? Is a tree lined hillside in that context a pleasing thing to the eye? Is it three dimensional, does it have good contrast, focal points, and have various levels of detail? To me it doesn't. I think you can reach your goal with this aquascape if you put it more into a traditional design modle. If you want to create a tree lined mountain, make a mountain on one side of the tank with an open valley or field around it, or something to that affect. Anything to give it more definition and detail


Thanks for the commentary Robert. I think you're missing the point though.

We use focal points, contrast etc. in order to help us create beauty, *not the other way around.* If something's beautiful without those things, than it's beautiful without those things.

The place I saw was _beautiful_, inspiring, rapturous. I understand that my horrible photography cannot share this with you (I even said that my horrible photography doesn't convey the place), but I was hoping people'd at least believe me on my account of it, considering my other truly beautiful photographs from Japan (when I didn't have to take them through a train window).

Well, Ranmastone does because he's seen the like place. It didn't have focal points or huge breaks or glaring contrasts-- but it is beautiful. This aquascape looks like it-- beautiful. Quite frankly, it overwhelms me.

And if you don't think so, I guess it's like others have said-- I can't make everyone happy.

Donald-- Thanks man, you're a big help.

To all:

I used to think towards everything, "well, it's worth a try." With Hau Coast too, I tried all sorts of varieties in response to feedback, because it "was worth a try." But, just like the photos with red plants of Hau Coast-- I know now I'm never going to use them.

Now that I think about it, if I did make this into a totally Amano-ish, traditional-ish scape (because I could, it would be pretty easy quite frankly), won everyone's approval (though I'd probably upset those who love originality), and heck, even if I top 10'd the ADA with it (impossible for the tank size btw), the result would be . . .

I'd hate myself for it. 

So I guess in the end I got to say: If you want to see an Amano, go buy some Aquajournals. Come to my thread to see _my_ work, because in the end, I guess all I can do is stay true to my vision.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

'Atta boy! Be proud of yourself and YOUR work! BE the trend; NEVER follow the trend! Beautiful as they may be, some of the scapes get a tad "every day"-ish.

I'll be waiting to see what you come up with next.


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## Genin (Jan 28, 2007)

I think your scape looks amazing. I liked it when it was a little more overgrown and bushy, but I am sure when it grows in a little more again and you do your final shots it will be amazing.


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

haha.. see what i mean.. told you that you'd get the "meh" kinda response...its nobodys fault really.. just that if you haven't seen it.. it really is quite hard for someone to "get it". The subjectivity of art is something that i have come to love so much..and also sometimes loathe..haha.. All in all i think its beautiful.

There will always be something that is "mainstream" and accepted by most, if not all..what is beautiful, what is accepted, what should be done, what colors go together, what you should NOT use...believe me.. beauty CAN be conditioned...so at the end of the day, you can choose to create (still) good scapes that are "in-line with the current train of thought" and win prizes and acclaim... or create good scapes that "aren't sooooo in-line" and remain true and happy to YOUR own vision. Personally, i almost always chose the latter, many of my own scapes come from first hand experiences in certain settings of nature in which i work...then when i get home i jot down to do it up in my tanks...which probably explains why nobody enjoys my scapes as much as me...hahaha..and i think it should be that way..because it is at the end of the day your scape and something you would have to live with everyday. Unless you're in this for the money...then maybe bend your stupid artistic ethics and 1:1.68 that damn scape now!


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## Robert Hudson (Feb 5, 2004)

> told you that you'd get the "meh" kinda response...its nobodys fault really.. just that if you haven't seen it.. it really is quite hard for someone to "get it".


Oh common, give me a break! Steven has given very harsh, open critiques of other people's aquascapes, so I am sure he can take it in return. I am not going to sugar coat it just so you can tell me that I get it. There is nothing to get! His aquascape is one dimensional and looks like a solid wall of plants!



> We use focal points, contrast etc. in order to help us create beauty, not the other way around. If something's beautiful without those things, than it's beautiful without those things.


Thats not true at all. You study Amano's work, you should know that. Its all in the composition. Whether its a photo or a painting, or any piece of art. You can take a photo of a beautiful thing and have it look shabby if you do not frame the picture correctly, or have the right composition. What you create in the aquarium is a snap shot, a photo of nature. In fact I think I have even heard you say that before! I am not trying to degrade you here, but I am not going to patronize you here either. If this was not your work, and you saw this, would you feel the same way?

BTW, I really liked your sketch. That would be a really interesting aquascape


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

I dont think it looks like a solid wall of plants - but I dont like it. In my opinion its way too messy. The mossy feel in the trees dont work for me - its too harsh. It need to soften up. 

I dont like the use of glosso either - in combination with the "trees" its too bigleafed - also due to the somehow claustrophobic feel of the total layout.

I think the front right side is wrong - provides nothing and makes most of the claustrophic feel i get. Perhaps its what Robert feels too?

I think it could work if you maked an opening by rescaping the hole right front side. Try making a more light front area to provide some contrast to the dark branches.

I really like moss part in the midground over the rocks - its catchy and gives some movement - due to different directions of the mosspoints. Riccia is good too.

If i had to boil everything down to one thing - redo the right side and use some of the parts from the middle and left side.

(In the sketch - its done with an open right side too)


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Maybe this site should be simply devoted to Amano and Knott, then? 

I am sure Steve can take it as he dishes it out, but that wasn't the point. The point was that an artist can relay his nostalgic feelings through aquascaping, despite the effort that put into obtaining that. Art is subjective from the creator, and not supposed to be logical despite the opinions from the audience. You can't really design something using objective opinions from the audience, and still have the piece truly be your own....you can do it, but it will leave the artist feeling empty when he is done.....and the piece will look "flat," kind of emotionless.

You have to give Steven his due. People here are superb at contructive critcism or offering hints of how to improve a scape, which is totally cool....it is what makes this site tick. But at the end of the day, you have to allow people to be creative and use their personal touch as they see fit. And then, the scape is beyond criticism.

As much as I love Amano and Knott, "The Look" is starting to bore me know. Too many copycats out there because it is trendy. Not enough people willing to take a chance and come up with something new or fresh. You can't borrow someone else's idea, skillfully plant the scape, and call it "your own." It may be beautiful to look at, and it may have taken some skill and effort, but a true artist you ARE NOT!

Someone......be a little bit bolder and design something new, please! My God, you guys are going to tear me apart when I post my pics in about a month! YIKES!


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Robert, i'm sure steven can take it like Ronald has mentioned.. in fact, i can see where you're coming from and if i put myself in that view, i think your advise is wonderful. Personally, i think its great that you give honest advise...i like it.. i don't like sugarcoating either and i'm sure steven appreciates your honesty as well. That is also the beauty of aquascaping.. you dont have to get it..and i'm not going to tell you that you get it, and know you have no need for me to..i mean who the hell am i?? That wasn't my intention at all...
i'm sorry that i did use your post as an example but it wasn't meant to pint point anyone.. it was just to show that with any scape.. there are people that understand it and people that don't understand it... and its okay because like i said beauty can be viewed in many ways... some call it beautiful when its scaped in a certain fashion and appeals to the current style, and some call it beauty when it conveys a certain feeling for them, both in my opinion, are good things. This particular scape, i feel, conveys more emotion than the "correct scaping techniques" and all i'm saying is that, that is beautiful as well.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Robert-- I can take it, but I just might not agree. With you, I don't, and it's ok if you don't understand what I'm seeing and making.

Ah heck, the choices are all mine anyway. The main reason to post is so other can enjoy my work (if they do), and in case someone does say something that might give me an idea-- like Pjerrot.









(please full size because other wise it'll look too pixilated)

It's important to take in your feedback-- even if you don't agree-- if you're good at listening, you might hear something that'll set something off in your own head. For instance, I don't agree with Pjerrot on almost all points--

but when he mentioned the right side, I thought about it, and realized that it would be interesting to toss out the right side sticks . . . not because I felt claustrophobic mind you . . .

Instead, because that'd expose a lot of straight looking "leggy" part of the rotala, and thus, look even more like bamboo stems! 

Plus, now I'm breaking an even bigger rule by showing my "legs." Heck, I have flat before wall syndrom on the right side, breaking _one of my own rules,_ and I love it!

Just goes to show you that every rule, every model, every norm-- can be tossed out if you want!

The important thing is that when you break rules, you do it purposely, with reason, and think about your decisions. That way, you'll learn from it. Like me here.


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

Woa.. you went naked!!! haha..
I think if the shadows fell right with your flash when taking the next photo...or if you purposely shifted light so you created more shadows in the scape... it might just work out.

You think it would be better to cover the sandy portion on the right with just a really thin layer of darker green?? Key is its gotta be thin so you can still see the scraggly legs..


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I think it's interesting.










Well, if there's one thing I can say about this last week, is that my photography and editing skills made a pretty big jump . . .

Fort the road, I've made a final judgement for me about this tank: It's freaking amazing.

Hmm, so after I guess I won't agree with any opinion that says otherwise.


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## FelixAvery (Mar 29, 2007)

stop having a big fight you bunch of girls


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## vollphann (Jun 22, 2005)

This is my first post on this site's forum. I have been watching this scape develop over time on another site. While its not my style, its Steven's. I gave up long ago trying to understand the mind of God(no, Steven, i'm not equating you w/God). Likewise, I gave up trying to understand the minds of artists. To a certain degree, we each have the opportunity to create our own worlds within our little tanks. To that point. There is a difference b/t gardeners and landscape architects. That difference is that landscape architects design things that look beautiful now, not later, using a set of rules from a classroom, and gardeners start with an idea and allow time and nature to guide them and they are not averse to trying new things b/c they aren't bound to some set of rules. While I understand that there are golden rules, numbers, and proportions, I also know that the times I've been diving or hiking in the woods or fields, I haven't taken the time to measure the distance b/t trees or seashells to make sure God is following the rules...I simply enjoy its beauty or oddity. My point is: landscape architects/"aquascapers" try to be even more than God in what they do(true perfection from the outset...that's not been God's way), aquagardeners start with an idea and allow the design to develop and mature and adjust, just as nature itself does. Why should artists, gardeners, and aquagardeners be held to a certain set of rules(contrast, symmetry, artificial randomness, etc.). If there were a perfect design to anything then we would all look alike and so would our aquariums. Steven, I appreciate the time, effort, and thought in your world. Keep it up. It is beautiful to look at while at the same time not being my world. As someone with a science background I have always loved how most great thinkers and discoverers of the world started out failing the accepted educational systems... only to shine with a brilliance that baffles people today b/c they shunned the accepted rules and learned/created new ones. God bless and continue to learn wisdom throughout your life...it will serve others well. Ben


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

This thread proves just how important (not that it wasn't known already) photo skills and equipment are to aquascaping. Unless we are personally going to tour each other's homes, offices and see the tanks in person it will not change. 

Looking at your inspiration for the scape it is very easy to see why so many just "don't get it". I know it's a poor shot, but the picture shows a mass of trees in a tight compact arrangement, truly a monumental task to reproduce in a 60cm tank and see all the detail and beauty. I must confess when I look at the picture sometimes I see a beautiful mountainside and other times I just see a heap of plants. 

Whether or not you've recreated what inspirated you in the first place is certainly important to you (and it should be), but I don't think you should be surprised that other's don't see it given the subject matter. I'll actually go as far as to say you probably expected it. I think part of choosing something to recreate in a scape is to see if it's scalable and possible to communicate in the confines of the tank size. I think this one was a strech. 

Maybe we need Video! LOL


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

vollphann-- welcome to APC, honored to have your first post on my thread. 

House,

It is scalable, it is possible-- in fact, it's scaled, it's done. This scape is as perfect a rendition of the motif as possible with aquascaping. It looks near photo-like. A perfect rendering might not garantee a great artwork, but it is proof that the motif _is_ recreatable-- in fact, it's already recreated. Rendering this close to reality is something I rarely see in aquascapes.

As for communicatable-- I've brought plenty of people around school into my room. College students hanging around the dorm or my friends from classes-- and they all get "mountain." They're not influenced by ADA, so their opinions are valuable in a different way.

You're right that I half-expected that some people would not appreciate this aquascape, but I hoped, that it would be recognized as a beautiful aquascape and something of a different approach.

I guess I'm expecting too much. In my aquascapes and in my posts I'm trying to teach people how to be artists, open minded, intelligently experimenting, and growing. I try to make aquascaping an art community. It's probably too much. I'm asking too much-- there's just not enough experience around, not even enough people with even the basic design skills. Besides which, artists are generally a different breed of people mentally-- very few people have the bravery to break the mold, and self-belief to take the criticism that is unavoidable if one truly is a growing artists who's not a slave to the current styles.

Ah well, all that's left to see is what the judges of the various contests will think. The more I talk about this aquascape, the more obvious it becomes that it's done. It's accomplished what I wanted it to as a piece. If it weren't done I wouldn't be defending it so much. :heh:


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 24, 2006)

I think the scape is different but great! 

It turned out really good and to deviate from the norm "Amano types" it will make great impressions!


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## gill (Apr 7, 2007)

Hey Steven, 
Another Stunning Scape as usual. More indepth Critque on here than on other forums. 

Ha HA wait till they see my monstrousities.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Ekliwoah and Gill--

BTW-- Gill, you're still using that avatar I drew for you? That seems like ages ago! Actually, I like where your scapes are going-- still rough on technique, but they have a good and strong impression.


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## gill (Apr 7, 2007)

Steven_Chong said:


> Thanks Ekliwoah and Gill--
> 
> BTW-- Gill, you're still using that avatar I drew for you? That seems like ages ago! Actually, I like where your scapes are going-- still rough on technique, but they have a good and strong impression.


Yeah, i still use that one from time to time, Yeah Still very Rough Scapes. But i manage with what i have.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Mar 12, 2006)

Steven - you actually achieved - only by opening the foreground on the right - to make me feel like looking at a bambooforest with the stems showing on the right. Good with the moss at the bottom. I just watched a film with ninjas in a bambooforest - and i thought of your scape...

I think its good that you are so bold and daring - it opens up so many possibilities...


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## houseofcards (Feb 16, 2005)

Steven you conviction in the scape is a good thing, as I said I can see what you doing, I certainly don't think it's smoke and mirrors, although too much editing can do that, but if we are keeping it real, I think the opening to the right is too extreme. You went from a very dense patch to nothing. The right front now against the dense canopy is distracting to the focal point. I believe it was a good move to remove some of the foreground, but don't you need some of the glosso and lower cover over there.


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

I'm replacing all the immediate foreground plants with HC, just out of curiosity . . . and having HC lying around . . .


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## ranmasatome (Aug 5, 2005)

even the riccia?? how about Hc and riccia?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Oh sorry-- I meant only the most immediate foreground-- I'll leave about the back inch of riccia and plant HC in front of it.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

Any newer pics? I'm guessing that some trimming (especially center, left sections) would make a significant improvement over the 4/6 pic (reveal a little more of the DW & rock). 

Looking very good overall!


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## C.ton (Nov 6, 2006)

the progress of the tank is great and the new look is much more better then the older scape , but i find that there is so many contradictory with what you say in here compared to the other post you've made. Yes, you are paving new road but you've mention "_you'll find that we don't belive "beauty is in the eye of the beholder here." We're very adamant about there being varying degrees of excellence in art, to which we aspire._"

i find that it completely contradict this statement "_Besides which, artists are generally a different breed of people mentally-- very few people have the bravery to break the mold, and self-belief to take the criticism that is unavoidable if one truly is a growing artists who's not a slave to the current styles._"

then here's a statement that made me think a lot, espciasiclally after reading this thread. _"You make your own style, but people in general, excellence in general, is not decided by you alone."_


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## Dave Spencer (Mar 4, 2007)

Steven, when I first saw this scape on the AE forum I didn`t like it, probably because I couldn`t see where it could possibly go in its early days. Then, after a point, for me it arrived at wherever it was going and I thought it was truly fantastic. All became clear to me.

Then, very much to my surprise, the journey continued on to its current development, but I have found myself left behind. You clearly had a better vision than me and I just hope that I can catch up again appreciate this latest scape.



Steven_Chong said:


> Besides which, artists are generally a different breed of people mentally-- very few people have the bravery to break the mold, and self-belief to take the criticism that is unavoidable if one truly is a growing artists who's not a slave to the current styles.
> QUOTE]
> 
> This statement is also relevant to many a great scientist, Steven. Art and science are not so different.
> ...


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Squawkbert-- I will trim to maintain this layout, but I will never take photos of it with the plants very thin. It's not what I'm going for.



C.ton said:


> the progress of the tank is great and the new look is much more better then the older scape , but i find that there is so many contradictory with what you say in here compared to the other post you've made. Yes, you are paving new road but you've mention "_you'll find that we don't belive "beauty is in the eye of the beholder here." We're very adamant about there being varying degrees of excellence in art, to which we aspire._"
> 
> i find that it completely contradict this statement "_Besides which, artists are generally a different breed of people mentally-- very few people have the bravery to break the mold, and self-belief to take the criticism that is unavoidable if one truly is a growing artists who's not a slave to the current styles._"
> 
> then here's a statement that made me think a lot, espciasiclally after reading this thread. _"You make your own style, but people in general, excellence in general, is not decided by you alone."_


C. Ton-- I'm afraid I don't see any contradictions.

What is Excellent is built on the opinions of many.

But artists, the people who achieve it, are few. Great artists can also, (sometimes not until they're long dead though) change the opinions of the many.

As a final note, [APC aquascaping forums] does not = [the many], at least imo. To me, [All people] = [The many]. From a statistical perspective, I don't have anything of the funds and means to get really conclusive feedback. The feedback I get from you all is in the form of a non-random, biased sample. Therefore, what's really going on is me making my own decisions. The feedback from others is not to tell me what's right or wrong, what's good or bad, but rather--

it's received on the chance that someone will say something that I personally find useful. Like Pjerrot's comment on the right side of the tank.

Dave-- I agree with you, and I think that statement could apply to many different groups, or rather those who go after excellence in many disciplines. neh?


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Squawkbert said:


> Any newer pics? I'm guessing that some trimming (especially center, left sections) would make a significant improvement over the 4/6 pic (reveal a little more of the DW & rock).
> 
> Looking very good overall!












I wasn't planning to show this one because it's the same photoshoot (so not all different) from 4/6, but I wanted a less turbulent water surface. I got close-ups too which I'll try to edit and post sometime.


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## C.ton (Nov 6, 2006)

sigh...i guess i'm the only one to see the contradiction, anyways this thread about about the scape and not philosophy, so we'll get back on topic.

the new, less turbulent picture is more attractive and very calming imo, when i look into this tank i now see a trail on the mountain side with a little creek that trails deep into the forest, meaning that this tank has a sense of dept. in comparison though, i see no resemblance to the scape witch you model this after, witch isn't a bad thing because when i look at the other picture, i see a pieace of land or mound that has different plants growing on it and that's about it but when i look at your tank, there seems to be more detail and the initial feel is much different. 

only thing that maybe you could try is trim the moss in a way that it looks more jag-et and less round, that comment was mostly intended for the moss stick that's on the right side of the "trail"


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## Steven_Chong (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback C.Ton

I'll be thinking about what I want to do with this scape. It's past the prime shooting time though (everything's really overgrown now) so it'll be a while before I shoot photos again. I got to trim it back asap.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

awaiting trim & more photos...

I agree, "thin plants" would not be good here, but a trim would be - 
DW has a bit of "knitting needles poked through balls of yarn" look in most recent photos. Some careful trimming in the lower portions might bring it back from "tree" to "trees".
The plant in the rear (right) is almost totally hidden by the right front plant (as is a little too much of the large rock). Just a trim, not a major "thinning out" may add more height via hardening the contrast between the rock & plants on the right.

I'm not even sure why I offer constructive criticism when i think my own large tank looks like a wall _in front of _a field in its current picture (I've improved it a little but have no new photo yet), but there you have it.


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