# [Wet Thumb Forum]-denitrification in a sump



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

I got a new 120 gallon tank for my goldies. I'm not comfortable with them in a NPT, so their new tank is set up the usual way with HOB filters. I'm planning to add a sump, so I was reading some more on sumps and came across some methods for reef aquariums that include using an anaerobic area for denitrification. That triggered the denitrification potential of a soil substrate... has me wondering if it would be possible to use an aragonite sand bed with lots of MTS in the sump to get an anaerobic area try and gas out nitrAte. That would have a side benefit of buffering. Am also toying with the idea of topsoil as well in the sump. I'm also thinking about using fast growing plants in the sump to help suck up nitrAtes. Any thoughts on how to create something in the sump that would help control nitrAtes?


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Hi Betty,

I am by no means an expert, Still learning







but I thought I'd share what little I know









There are afew plans floating around out there for a device that is supposed to assist in denitrification. Try a google search for "DIY Denitrifer" (http://www.kingvinnie.com/aquaria/ is one resource where you will find this device). They are easy to build and Cheap.... but I have read mixed comments on such devices: Some people swear by them... others claim they are usless. I think they probably could work if the water flow is kept slow enough.

Another method, and the one that interest me the most, is sort of a rip-off of Reef style Live sand beds. You collect your "Live Sand" from a clean lake or stream and use it to form a deep sand bed in your sump (a plenum probably should be used here.... ala "The Jaubert Reef Method").

(Note Here: Collecting sand from local streams/lakes is probably BEGGING for parasite problems. I believe clean sand can be used though it will take longer for the bacterial colonies to build up. Perhaps Mrs. Walstad will comment on concerns of using collected sand)

I plan on setting my sump up this way and coupling it with floating plants such as java moss and duckweed on a Photo-cycle that is opposite of my main tank (i.e Lights ON at 8pm - OFF at 8am). I have already installed a dual socket screw-in light fixture inside my Aquarium Cabinet directly over where the sump is that has 2 screw-in type floro bulbs in it (the "Energy Saver" kind you find at Walmart and the like)

I think this method will work very well since its it basicly a direct "translation" from several proven Reef-keeping methods...

The "Live Sand" and the plants (in Reef tanks its Algae) will work together the strip Nitrates from the water while the main tank is sleeping. Also, for those that are injecting CO2... it **MAY** help to prevent Nightly PH swings since the plants in the sump will be Photosynthesizing while the rest of the plants are not.... also being FLOATING plants, they are only removing nutrients from the water column thus **MAYBE** helping to prevent algae breakouts.

One note: Throwing MTS in might be counter productive since they would AERATE the sand bed, reducing the anaerobic conditions and there-by slowing the reduction of NO3

Another method is to build a Hydroponic plant filter. Ive seen several people on this forum using them... Looking at some of your tank pics it looks like you have atleast used this method in the past.. You can grow almost anything (Lighting permitting) in these filters. Some of the coolest setups I've seen grow lettuce and other greens that are used to feed the fish. Maybe catnip if you have a cat... The method that I mentioned above is sort of a combination of Plant Filters and Sand Bed Filtration.

here is some resources on Plant Filtration:
http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/plant.html
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/plants/Dunlop_Plant_Filters.html

Keep in mind none of this is proven (plant filters excluded) but I hope is gives you a good start on your homework









Take care,
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yea, I've contemplated making a coil denitrification unit. Haven't yet tho.

My plant filter on the 55 gallon goldie tank couldn't keep up with nitrAte production. I think because I had so much traditional filtration going. I think if I go with traditional biological filtration (e.g. wet/dry trickle filter) any denitrification scheme will have to be exceptional to keep up with 5 large goldies. I'd think it would currently need to handle at least 8ppm nitrAte per day.

I'm pretty sure the reason natural planted tanks work so well to keep nitrAte at bay is the plants use most of the ammonia before it can be converted to nitrAte (rather than using it up after it's converted by the biofilter bacteria). I wonder how much anaerobic denitrification helps gas out nitrogen gas in a natural planted tank?

I'm also wondering if I went with a sump with mechanical filtration as the first stage, and then have the water circulate thru a natural planted tank in the sump for biological filtration, run on a reverse photoperiod from the tank combined with potted plants in the goldie tank. if that would handle the fish load without adding traditional wet/dry filtration.

The plenum/sand bed idea is interesting cuz I could re-oxygenate the water as it's added back into the main tank. I dunno about collecting sand around here. This part of Oklahoma is mainly red clay.


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Your Probably right on the sand.... Argonite should be fine









8ppm per day.... messy buggers 'eh?









Your scheme definatly sounds like it can make a dent.... 8ppm per day is a huge bill to fill though.

Good Luck to you








-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Yes, goldies are messy beasts. After being set up for a week, I'm up to at least 40ppm nitrate in the new goldie tank.









How big of a natural planted tank do you think I'd need as a sump to handle the fish load? 
And would running 1200 gph flow be a problem. hmmm


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Sorry for the delay...

How big is probably something that will have to big answered by abit of trial and error... feeding habits and types of plants will play in heavily here.

The great thing is that you can use just about anything for your sump (although this may get me flamed  ...) I use Rumbermaid tubs for sumps... though strangly enough, not really because they are cheap (Im a big fan of not spending money ). I've had several 10gals and 20gals end up cracking on me and it tends to always be on the backside where it doesnt get noticed until it has REALLY made a mess  So I started using Rubermaid tubs because... well, they are damn near bullet proof









Back to size, Size of container.... Id use the biggest thing that you can easily service given your setup (cabinet, etc etc) 1200GPH is alot of water flow (again, Im a of higher flow rates.. when it applies. And I would think it does to a goldie tank ) but I dont see it really being a problem as long as you use a container thats large enough that the plants are not being churned around too much. (will you need 2 overflows for 1200GPH? might be a good idea...1200GPH spills onto the floor rather quickly )

Probably what you will be looking for is the right combination of methods... If your "pond-sump" dont cut it, try adding a denitrifier. Then maybe a deep sand bed/plenum. Maybe a Hydroponic filter next... It may very well take several different layers of denitrification to do the trick with these messy little beasites









Which brings me to wonder... would an Automated water change scheme be an easier/cheaper solution for you? Just a thought









Lights... no need to get fancy.. get a dual socket Outdoor rated screw type light fixture and use a couple CF screw-ins. Contrary to what some people on the net will tell ya, plants grow very well under these








You can get some really good growth in a tank with them as well, but given that you dont have alot of choices of color temps.... they dont really look that great. Given what you are trying to do... I would run them as long as you can without creating algea problems. 24 hours a day if possible. Just make sure they are atleast on the whole time your tank lights are off

(Wow Im long winded)

8PPM a day is a load, but I think you can keep it to a reasonable level. For instance... I have a 20gal bubble garden growing hydroponic tomatoes at the moment. I feed them once a week with a hydroponic solution and afterwards the Nitrates test WAAAAAY high. I dunno what it acutally is as just like my fish tanks I tend to "read" the plants (or fish) instead of worrying alot about my water chemistry....but.. its over 80PPM which is the max that my stupid little test strips will measure. Anyways, at the end of the week when its time to feed again, the nitrates have just about bottomed out (maybe 5PPM remaining)

Now, 8PPM per day @ 7days gives 56PPM which in comparison isnt near as staggering







Now take account that the bubble garden is on my screened in back pourch (clear plastic cover is down for the winter) so it gets ALOT of sun.... *shrug* If I ever build my dream home there will be a sun room with an indoor hydroponic veggie/herb garden that is sustained by my fish tanks... too cool









Hope my mindless ramblings have helped somehwat








Merry Christmas!!
-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Very interesting! so how many tomatoe plants do you have in there? How do you have them supported? The tomatoe plants I planted this spring got HUGE.

Yea, I like the compact fluorescents. I have 11 of the 20 watt 6500K over my 125. Between those and sunlight, the plants are growing like gangbusters. I almost clipped some branches to try and root them in my plant filter. Didn't tho.

A modular set up sounds interesting. 
and I could probably get more water volume under the tank with multiple tubs, chained together. If I set up a hydroponic stage, would I have to run mechanical filtration before it?


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

My Bubbler holds 4 plants...its a 20gal rubbermaid tub coated with "Plasta-Dip".. a spray-on rubber coating (available at Lowes, homedepot, etc etc) to keep algae growth down. It has 4 2inch or so holes cut out of the lid for plants and 6 3ft PVC "stakes" glued into it for plant support.

In the bottom of the tub I glued a coil of 1/4" soaker hose (Google: "Irragation Drip Line" (Avaiable at: homedepot, walmart, lowes)) that attaches to a el-cheap-o walmart airpump for aeration. I also use this stuff and the 1/4" distro tubbing that is used with it in my tanks. The distro tubing makes GREAT airhose (Hint: this tubbing is IDEAL to use for coils in a denitrifier) and only cost 10$ per 100ft or so and the soaker hose for cheap aerators at about the same price (Think bubble curtain but MUCH smaller bubbles. i.e. Pencil tip sized)

The plants are held in place by foam stoppers made from peices of a "Fun Noddle" pool toy (2.99$ at walmart) This holds the plants very well and suppends (bare roots, no media) the plants root-ball 1-2 inches above the waters surface. I've hydro grown all sorts of things this way... Tomatoes, Basil, oregano, cilantro, etc etc. Hydroponics is a blast to play with and cheap.... much cheaper than growing plants in pots with soil.

I wouldnt put any filtration BEFORE a hydro stage. Make it your 1st stage.... but CERTAINLY after... all the bits of fish food and funk that end up in your Hydro stage will just become plant food. And a simple foam filter before your next stage will keep these same particles, along with bits of plant roots and gunk contained.

I have a private laugh everytime I hear someone say CF screw-ins dont work for plant growth...LOL.. "Yeah, keep believing that







"

-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Thanks for all the info. That sounds very doable! What kinda tomatoes are you growing?

So the root ball isn't in the growing solution?

Here's an old pic of the lighting on my 125. Since then, I've added 6 more 20 watt 6500 bulbs. The most current pics of that tank are here.


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

No, root ball is suspended just over the water allowing all of the ends and offshoots of the roots to hang into the solution. ... Hopefully I'm calling the rootball by the right name (believe it or not, Im really NOT a "plant person").... Lets describe it like this: The stem and the first 1-3 inches of roots are NOT submerged. Everything else is.







Its not a matter of exactness at all... just what seems to make the plants happy









I really couldnt tell you what kind of tomatoes... cuttings from my neighbors garden from this year









Those CF's look great as pendants!







I Like! I'm hoping to see more and more options with these bulbs... I see Walmart carrys an 80Watter now (err....maybe it was 60W)

Your tanks were some of the 1st I drooled over when I joined this forum .. very nice.. I've keep aquariums for awhile (a 30gal,20gal, and a 10gal Nano reef (the nano didnt survive my move last year







) None of them planted tanks so Im still well in the learning curve there... but Im hoping my tinkerings with Hydroponics will pay off







.... As soon as I can I am going to tear the 30gal down and plant it with a soil subtrate (it has 2x60W T12 Tubes and small 15watt tub built into a homemade hood... the 15watt tube was mainly put in for a sunrise/sunset light..... I've got to get some pictures of some of my tinkerings. Perhaps my 30gal when I stuff it with a Aquabotanic order
 






Some be an "interesting" experience.. Its very heavily stocked with all sorts of beaties...I plan to tear it down and plant it in a day. LOL, should prove to be a juggling act









You are very welcome for all the info







You just happend to ask a question that I had done some homework on









Feel free to drop me a line if you wish ==>> onemyndseye <-AT-> yahoo.com

Take care, Merry christmas








-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Check this DIY aquaponics system out.

seems to me if one used pearlite for the plants, that would end up being a wet/dry filter similar to a bead filter I'd guess. My dilemma in using something like that as the first stage, is that lots of organics would build up. They'd be great plant food, but that would generate more ammonia and would probably stop up at some point. So I guess the mechanical stage would have to come first.


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

True, the buildup could make things harder to balance....hrrmmm

As far as pearlite and other forms of media... I've always much prefered a DWC or SWC (Deep Water Culture or Shallow Water culture) over drip type systems. Its just much easier to deal with having no media to deal with. I seem to have less problems with root ailments in a DWC/SWC.. I've always contributed it to less root exposure being a move enclosed system, though that may having nothing to do with it.

This is one reason I have never tried any sort of bulbs in my bubblers... becuase I dont use media/net pots ...*shrug*

Its worth mentioning that even in a media-less system... the plant roots themselfs will act alot has a bio-filter... hosting hoards of bacteria.. Also worth mentioning is that the organic buildup may infact produce more ammonia but that may not be as big of a problem as we would think at first glance. Plants use ammonia MUCH faster than nitrates so possibly the result would be that the excess ammonia produced from the orgranic buildup would get used by the plants before it ever gets converted to NO3... *shrug*... something to think about atleast









-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------



## DataGuru (Mar 11, 2005)

Interesting. I think medialess would be good, I'd prefer that especially in the first part of the filter, I'd like the bulk of ammonia get sucked up by plants rather than by the biobugs.

Now the question is what to use for the container. I'd like something about 3 foot long that would run behind the tank and could be plumbed on each end. Maybe a rain gutter. but that doesn't have a top. I'd need a top right, to control evaporation?


----------



## onemyndseye (May 12, 2006)

Yeah... youll want a top.. especially if you go with a media-less setup ...

just shop around different places for a rubbermaid container that will suit your needs... Easy and cheap







Try the Kitchen tupperware isle at Walmart and the like for a bigger variety of shapes









Merry Christmas








-Justin
One Mynds Eye


----------

