# Ludwigia repens 'rubin'? or another hybrid?



## manini

Not too sure if this should go to the plant ID or here. Anyway, L. repens 'rubin' or another hybrid. Possible cross with palustris? Possibly variants due to environmental conditions. These grow slower than your normal Ludwigia species but holds its color very well. Grown in low,med,and high light conditions without turning green. Intense red color shown best under high light.

Submerge photos (leaves are much more narrow than repens)

















Emerged (again, more narrow and color difference)


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## THHNguyen

It's a very nice strain whatever it is. I think that_ L. repens_ 'Rubin' has 1 leaf per node.


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## anubias6439

Looks beautiful! Id switch out my repens x arcuata for that. Looks the same as Rotala marcranda but ludwiga


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## miremonster

Really beautiful! Where did You get it? Was there any trade name?
On the plant I know as 'Rubin' I never found ripe fruits. Leaves opposite as well as alternate, often on the same stem.
Do the flowers have petals?


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## manini

miremonster said:


> Really beautiful! Where did You get it? Was there any trade name?
> On the plant I know as 'Rubin' I never found ripe fruits. Leaves opposite as well as alternate, often on the same stem.
> Do the flowers have petals?


These plants came from asia. From which country exactly? Not too sure. What I understand is that they were from a friend of a friend. As far as trade name, they were calling it Ludwigia species red. Very generic. I swear that I did see petals on them before but I checked back and found none. I am hoping to see if I can get a photo of them with petals and will post them up. Do you have photos of your 'rubin'? I hope you do so that I can compare these specimens.


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## miremonster

OK, thank You; I'll look after my "Rubin" pics and post them.
Petals => at least it's not Ludwigia palustris. But this "Ludwigia species red" likely belongs to the same Ludwigia section (Dantia = Isnardia) because of its opposite leaves. The species and hybrids of Sect. Dantia are originally native of the Americas only.


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## Cavan Allen

miremonster said:


> OK, thank You; I'll look after my "Rubin" pics and post them.
> Petals => at least it's not Ludwigia palustris. But this "Ludwigia species red" likely belongs to the same Ludwigia section (Dantia = Isnardia) because of its opposite leaves. The species and hybrids of Sect. Dantia are originally native of the Americas only.


According to Peng et al, _L. palustris_ is most likely native to Eurasia, being "present in several widely separated areas of Europe as early as 1666." It may have dispersed to Europe in the recent past, but is not likely introduced. See:

Peng, et al (2005). Systematics and Evolution of Ludwigia Section Dantia (Onagraceae). _Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden _, _92_, 307-359.

As far as I know, that is still available for free online, though you do have to jump through some virtual hoops to get it. I'll come back with the link/instructions for anyone interested. It's really very good.

As far as the plant in question here goes, I do remember seeing a photo of a flowering specimen with petals. It really looks more like _L. palustris_ otherwise, so I'm not sure what to say. Isn't the 'Rubin' supposed to be originally from Central America? The given range of _L. repens_ doesn't extend any farther south that central Mexico. I suppose it could be a hybrid, perhaps between _L. palustris_ and something else. With some good specimens and perhaps fresh material, I should be able to get an answer eventually.


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## miremonster

Cavan Allen said:


> According to Peng et al, _L. palustris_ is most likely native to Eurasia, being "present in several widely separated areas of Europe as early as 1666." It may have dispersed to Europe in the recent past, but is not likely introduced. See:
> 
> Peng, et al (2005). Systematics and Evolution of Ludwigia Section Dantia (Onagraceae). _Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden _, _92_, 307-359.


Thank You; I forgot that also in German floras Ludwigia palustris is listed as native: http://www.floraweb.de/pflanzenarten/artenhome.xsql?suchnr=3517&

As for the Ludwigia 'Rubin', Claus Christensen once told me that he had seen this plant in Texas. I'll ask him again if he is sure.


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## Cavan Allen

Knowing its origin would really help. I remember seeing mention that it is related to _L. glandulosa_ somehow, but it would have to be from the US for that to be, I'd think; members of section _Microcarpium_ (including _L. glandulosa_) are almost entirely limited to the US, with a few in the Bahamas, Canada and Mexico (one place as a disjunct population).

We have a plant that HeyPK collected in Mississippi that really looks like a cross between _L. glandulosa_ and _L. palustris_. It has opposite leaves, which is somewhat surprising since intersectional hybrids are supposed to - usually at least - have alternate leaves. Different parental combinations could produce opposite-leaved plants? Rubin may be a cross with another _Ludwigia_ entirely? ???


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## Error

Cavan Allen said:


> Knowing its origin would really help. I remember seeing mention that it is related to _L. glandulosa_ somehow, but it would have to be from the US for that to be, I'd think; members of section _Microcarpium_ (including _L. glandulosa_) are almost entirely limited to the US, with a few in the Bahamas, Canada and Mexico (one place as a disjunct population).
> 
> We have a plant that HeyPK collected in Mississippi that really looks like a cross between _L. glandulosa_ and _L. palustris_. It has opposite leaves, which is somewhat surprising since intersectional hybrids are supposed to - usually at least - have alternate leaves. Different parental combinations could produce opposite-leaved plants? Rubin may be a cross with another _Ludwigia_ entirely? ???


I keep wondering about the cladistics of Ludwigia.

Something seems extremely variable about many of them. L. inclinata in its myriad incarnations for example.

I know very little about hybrids. I feel like a cross between, say, (L. repens and L. palustris) crossed again with (L. palustris) might create something that looks like that. I am certain that it is a part of this 'Dantia' group, leastaways.

Taxonomy is fun! SOMEONE SEQUENCE THE GENES AND GIVE US AN ANSWER!

Cavan, you should PM me some links to these articles and annals you post. I would like to know more.


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## Cavan Allen

I'll see if I can find out how people can get access to them who can't right now. There are a few papers made by specialists at the Missouri Botanical Garden that are excellent, to say the least.

_Dantia_ is a section of _Ludwigia_ (a bit less than a sub genus) that includes palustris, repens, arcuata, brevipes and spathulata, the last one being a rare species of restricted range; as far as I know, nobody has ever tried it.

_L. inclinata_ is in its own section, _Heterophylla_.

Intersectional hybrids exist; there is a population in Alabama of a hybrid of _L. arcuata_ and _L. pilosa_. Sterile, not surprisingly, but I'd really like to get my hands on it! I was going to try creating a hybrid of _L. inclinata_ and _L. palustris_, but I couldn't get them to flower at the same time. Bummer. Next time, maybe.


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## Cavan Allen

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/pdf3/007023200087371.pdf

There you go. It's the section _Dantia_ paper I cited above.


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## Error

Cavan Allen said:


> _Dantia_ is a section of _Ludwigia_ (a bit less than a sub genus) that includes palustris, repens, arcuata, brevipes and spathulata, the last one being a rare species of restricted range; as far as I know, nobody has ever tried it.


http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20l?...lopedia+of+Life&burl=www.eol.org/pages/582928

Exact coordinates for some L. spathulata.


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## Cavan Allen

Legal and responsible collecting! 

Note that the collection date is from 1971. What's there now?


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## Error

Cavan Allen said:


> Legal and responsible collecting!
> 
> Note that the collection date is from 1971. What's there now?


I don't know. Perhaps a strip mall? I'd be willing to make the trip one of these days.


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## miremonster

@Error
Phylogeny of Ludwigia: Announcement of a poster by Hoch & al.: http://2011.botanyconference.org/engine/search/index.php?func=detail&aid=345
A very good site from the Smithsonian Institution about Ludwigia and other Onagraceae: http://botany.si.edu/onagraceae/result.cfm?myFrom=tree&genus=Ludwigia


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## Error

miremonster said:


> @Error
> Phylogeny of Ludwigia: Announcement of a poster by Hoch & al.: http://2011.botanyconference.org/engine/search/index.php?func=detail&aid=345
> A very good site from the Smithsonian Institution about Ludwigia and other Onagraceae: http://botany.si.edu/onagraceae/result.cfm?myFrom=tree&genus=Ludwigia


Wow, thank you, those are superb!

I *love* Ludwigia. I am attempting to collect as many as possible. I have a few weird ones now that I didn't have a few years ago but am always looking for more, and as a result, more information.


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## manini

This is an interesting photo of the same plant.....


























almost every node has its own flower.


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## wet

Folks,

1) Thanks for the pics! Great pics. Gorgeous color.

2) Does it grow as fast as L. repens (or L. repens 'Rubin')? Can you give a ballpark of growth rate vs other plants?

Thanks!


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## Cavan Allen

Got a fertile stem of this plant to look at, and it looks like it's _L. palustris_. I'd love to know where it originally came from. Odd, because _L. palustris_ is usually remarkably uniform. It is not the same as the 'Rubin' which really does look like a hybrid.


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## Tyger

Cavan Allen said:


> Legal and responsible collecting!  Note that the collection date is from 1971. What's there now?


 Well, I know this answer is late in coming; however, I thought you'd like to know (friendly smile):

There Now (Map)
 Not quite a shopping mall though it's a lot different than 1971 is my guess.

~Tyger (Michael)~


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## Knuggs

I know its been awhile since this has been bumped up but I am currently trying to ID this plant as well. Any consensus? 

Manini, is that a pic of its emersed form?


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## miremonster

manini said:


> These plants came from asia. From which country exactly? Not too sure. What I understand is that they were from a friend of a friend. As far as trade name, they were calling it Ludwigia species red. Very generic. I swear that I did see petals on them before but I checked back and found none. I am hoping to see if I can get a photo of them with petals and will post them up. Do you have photos of your 'rubin'? I hope you do so that I can compare these specimens.


Now finally I found petals on Ludwigia* 'Rubin'*. Only 3 petals, 1 is not developed or early shed. (unfortunately not really focused in the pics)

As mentioned, I didn't find mature fruits on 'Rubin' yet. Apart from the partly alternate leaves, the emersed leaf form is more elongate compared to the roundish leaves of the "Red".

Are petals found on emersed Ludwigia (palustris?) "Red" in the meanwhile? 
Is this plant different from North American Ludwigia palustris if cultivated submersed in the same tank?


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## Cavan Allen

miremonster said:


> Are petals found on emersed Ludwigia (palustris?) "Red" in the meanwhile?
> Is this plant different from North American Ludwigia palustris if cultivated submersed in the same tank?


No petals. And it's very different from North American material with which we're familiar.

Any chance you could make a specimen or preserve any of your plant in silica?


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## miremonster

Hello Cavan,
ok, I'll see! Dry with silica => to sequence DNA?


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## Cavan Allen

Yes, but I'll have to see if that can be arranged. May take a while...


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## miremonster

The Ludwigia "Red" or "Super Red" or however named, is labeled _Ludwigia palustris_ (035B) by Tropica now. Formerly Ludwigia sp.
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Ludwigiapalustris(035B)/4453
Couldn't find out yet what the labeling is based on.
Cavan wrote that this Ludwigia is very different from familiar North American L. palustris. I mean, even if 035B belongs to L. palustris, it would be good to add a cultivar or commercial name to the scientific name (e.g. 'Super Red') to mark this particular strain. 
However I don't know how e.g. European L. palustris populations differ from N American ones. Maybe the 035B is an Old World L. palustris?


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## Cavan Allen

That would be better, yes. As to whether it's new or old world, that's hard to say. I really have no idea where that originated.


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## TropTrea

I think we need to be cautious if we identify different species by the density of the red pigment. 'It has been my past experience that the light spectrum and intensity which a plant has bee exposed to especially long term can have an effect on the red pigment density.


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## Cavan Allen

That's not what we're doing here. Based on fertile specimens, the 'red' looks like palustris.


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## miremonster

The 'Red' has apparently more intense red colour than previously known L. palustris - under same conditions. Maybe that still has to be demonstrated by growing them side by side, because of the mentioned dependence of the pigment density on light etc. But that distinction isn't a taxonomical one, it's rather in the field of "cultonomy".

I haven't found dry fruits with obviously mature seeds on emersed "Red" / "Super Red" yet. Sowing would be interesting to find out if the seeds are germinable, and if so, whether the seedlings look uniform or diverse.


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## Cavan Allen

The 'red' has a smaller stature and more compact growth habit. Normal palustris is much weedier; both may belong to the same species, but for cultivation purposes, they are very, very different plants.


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## miremonster

Cavan Allen said:


> The 'red' has a smaller stature and more compact growth habit. Normal palustris is much weedier;


 OK; I wasn't aware of that. The plant that I knew as Ludwigia palustris was of unknown origin, it branched well and had similarly small leaves, but if I remember correctly, more elongate leaf shape than the "Red" and a lighter, nice orange-red colour. Stupidly I've lost it years ago. I wonder if that was different from normal North American L. palustris... no idea.


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## Cavan Allen

The main pic in the Plant Finder entry for _L. palustris_ is illustrative as to how it normally looks when collected here.


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## miremonster

Thx; my palustris looked like that!


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