# Please help me, going insane!!!



## sasa (Apr 15, 2005)

Hi all,

It has been quite a while since I posted my last message, mainly because I've been fighting a war with hair algae.

Here are my tank's specification:
* 77 gallon with pressurized C02 
* 2 watts/gal
* Ph : 6.6 - 6.7
* KH : 5.0
* Gh : 9.0
* PO4 : around 1.0 ppm
* NO3 : ???? with SeaChem a little more than 0ppm, with another kit around 10ppm

I've been thinking my problem is the NO3, I'm currently using the Seachem products (Phosphorus, Potassium, Nitrogen, Iron, Flourish) dosing per label, I increase a little bit the nitrogen dosing 10 ml twice a week (following the suggestion of one of the forum's member). I also increase the food for my fishes (now they all look like pigs!), also bought some SAE's and shrimps, but I'm still getting this algae.

By the way, my tank is medium-heavily planted.

Thanks for any help,

Sasa


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I had the same problem with N03 test kits, getting different readings from 3 different kits, so I ended up buying a Lamotte.

When I had hair algae I did the following... Stopped all ferts except N03, reduced daily lighting down to 8 hours a day, increased water changes...The hair algae was gone in two weeks. 

I would start slowly increasing N03, dose every 3 days (increasing the amount weekly), test with your Seachem test kit weekly until you reach 10ppm of N03.


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## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

I would definately not follow this approach.Too simple,sense less and confuses people who are new to the forum or hobby.Such generalizations should be used very carefuly with people that are seriously frustrated about their their tank problems.In one's mind a planted tank can become a serious obsession.....


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## zig (Jul 3, 2005)

Anafranil said:


> I would definately not follow this approach.Too simple,sense less and confuses people who are new to the forum or hobby.Such generalizations should be used very carefuly with people that are seriously frustrated about their their tank problems.In one's mind a planted tank can become a serious obsession.....


Well what would you suggest then?

I had a problem with hair algae and my no3 was low at about 1-2ppm, i knew that this was probably the reason, so i gradually increased my no3 doseing to bring my levels up to 10ppm, i did this gradually doseing small amounts each day for about 10 days, testing along the way to make sure i didnt overdo it, at the end of 2 weeks my algae had disappeared and hasnt been back since, i now maintain my no3 levels at 10ppm.

Anyway just my experiences, you may also have an no3 problem, and the advice given seems sound to me, because its pretty much exactly how i got rid of mine.

Good luck with it


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## Yeaulman (Jun 23, 2005)

During this time, what were your CO2 levels at?


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Anafranil said:


> I would definately not follow this approach.Too simple,sense less and confuses people who are new to the forum or hobby.Such generalizations should be used very carefuly with people that are seriously frustrated about their their tank problems.In one's mind a planted tank can become a serious obsession.....


 Why do you say this  ... Isn't this (simple) what a newbie is looking for and/or needs? Why would "simple" be confusing? I would not call a particular method "senseless" unless you have tried it. This is not a generalizations but a method that worked for me when I was a newbie.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

zig said:


> Well what would you suggest then?


 I agree!... Anafranil, if you are going to disapprove of someones Else's method, then tell us what method you would use.


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## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm disaproving no one's theory,I'm just fed up with all this trial and error methods that we are all forced to go through because of our little knowledge on chemistry and biology.I have spent all my life chasing nutrients around with no success.I unplugged my filter and co2 equipment last night,one more tank going down.That's it I'm continuing my diploma on chemistry and biology and make some sence behind the whole story...
I hope I'm not inhibiting any other hobbyists,there is a way,if you are persistent enough.
In the mean time a tanganyikan aquarium is set up,time to remember what fish look like when they swim...


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

It seems that you are getting feed up with planted tanks, I'm sorry to hear that. I really don't see the method I gave as trail and error though, since it was a proven method that worked for me. However, what works for one may not work for another, because of the fact that each situation is different to some degree. So _maybe_ you are right in saying that ridding your tank of algae is a "trail and error" process to _some degree_. However in the end some method will eventually work. So I say to all the newbies out there, *don't give up*.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Anafranil, I can perfectly understand the frustration that can arise if one is constantly struggling to keep a planted tank algae free. I would keep in mind the following, it may help:

- There are many, many really nice planted tanks out there that do have that balance with little, if no algae. So it is not an impossible constant struggle with no end in sight.

- Trial and error *is* a method and it does work... unless 1) one is not keeping good track of the trials and resultant errors (ie tank log) and therefore not learning from them and/or 2) one is trying too many changes at once; you need to try changing one thing and then waiting at least 2-3 weeks to make sure whatever beneficial effect has had time to appear to your eye.

While I can sympathize and understand your frustration, I don't really agree with the general recommendation that comes out of your post(s) here that one should give up. 

While you may not agree with someone's recommendations, they are at least trying to propose a possible solution. Compare this to your contribution...

In any case, this is a hobby. If you get more out of the hobby with less frustration by sticking to African Rift lake tanks then by all means do so. Those tanks are great too!


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## Anafranil (Mar 15, 2005)

I apologise for the inconvienience that I have may caused between newbies in the community,I was really frustrated when writing the previous posts.In fact I was introduced to the community a year ago and that was the day I started seing improvement in my tanks.It was the day I understood that adding macros to the tank is a must and that excess macronutrients do not produce algae.Now a year after and hundreds of hours searching books and the net I had to give up for another time,and probably not the last.I was devastatated.
Although I have to tell I was algae free for time to time and this was what kept me going on.Obviously it was a trial and error method that brought results..
The difference between me and other members of the community is that I studied chemistry and biology for a year at college so I could uderstund why and how some biochemical procedures happen in an aquarium.When I had to face a problem that was out of my range of knowledge I had to follow the 'trial and error' procedure and that killed me,I knew that one more year in college and wouldn't have to go through this.Besides half of the thrill planted tanks give me comes from uderstanding the biology behind it.Anyway this time I'm doing it the right way..
And for all those people who are new to the hobby,don't give up,there are a lot of expierienced people out there that can help you a lot!!
Good luck

PS:remember that people who succeded in planted tanks tend to forget the skills and dificulty level this hobby requires


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm glad to hear that you are beginning again.


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## mikeyG (May 4, 2005)

Just another frustrated newbie venting.

I have my first tank ever set up and it is 3 months old today. I am having reasonable luck. I am careful and methodical enough to make any anal retentive blush. Test 4 or more things daily, have 2 and 3 different brands of most tests. Use EI as best as I can. Record all results since inception in spreadsheet. Set up my tank as the forums recommend.

50G oceanic
100 lbs eco complete
3 wpg cf 9325 bulbs (on for 10 hours per day)
pressurized CO2 with solonoid (off with the lights - Milwaukee setup)
AM 1000 reactor
9w Turbo Twist UV
Eheim 2126
tons of stem plants from day one

pH = 6.6
NO3 = 20
CO2 = 35-40
PO4 = 3-5
KH = 4-5
NH4 = 0

I have had gw and BGA (done 3 blackouts according to hoyle -finally bought the turbo twist), green spot algae for 6 weeks so far, (can't get rid of it even with the recommended high CO2 and PO4). Now batteling soft brown thread algae as well. 

So for 3 months my tank hasn't looked all that wonderful. I can understand all the frustration others in this post have. While I know there are many many tanks that are in balance, how much does one have to endure in order to have a sweet tank that is mostly in balance.

I do understand that you will never get rid of it all, and that there will always be recurring problems, but in terms of personal angst, at what point does one finally give up and set up an mbuna tank and let the plants die on the vine?

Thank you - your patience and ear are appreciated.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeyG... I'm sure that others on this board understands how you feel, I know that I do. I have a new tank that I set up about 3 months ago. At this time I'm in the process of getting ever thing in balance. Because of this I'm having algae issues in the form of BGA, BBA, Hair algae etc.. The point is it takes more than 3 months to get it all together. So don't give up and have a little (more like a lot) of patience, it will all work out in the end. I know because I have two other tanks that proves it does.

_Have you thought about bringing your N03 down to 10ppm and P04 down to 1ppm_?... This may help reduce your algae. I say may because all tanks are different.


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## mikeyG (May 4, 2005)

Ok...Ok...Ok...... I'll behave! Sure felt good to vent though. It is a tough row to hoe. 3 months is not enough time? How long on average do you think it takes before things stabilize and algae becomes "just a small nuisance?

And yes NO3 and PO4 are too high. Have been dosing lightly imo but apparently still too much. They are slowly coming down however. PO4 out of the tap is 2ppm so I probably barely need to dose that at all.


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

Since ever tank is different the amount of time it takes will vary. It can take up to an year in my experience. 

To get those nitrates and phosphates down, keep up with regular large water changes. I also would not dose ferts containing these two, until the levels get down to where you want. For a little extra help you can use Phos-Guard to help remove P04 and Algone to remove N03. 

Venting is good, let it all out :axe:


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

Anafranil said:


> I'm disaproving no one's theory,I'm just fed up with all this trial and error methods that we are all forced to go through because of our little knowledge on chemistry and biology.I have spent all my life chasing nutrients around with no success.I unplugged my filter and co2 equipment last night,one more tank going down.That's it I'm continuing my diploma on chemistry and biology and make some sence behind the whole story...
> I hope I'm not inhibiting any other hobbyists,there is a way,if you are persistent enough.
> In the mean time a tanganyikan aquarium is set up,time to remember what fish look like when they swim...


Well that is not a good approach
hehe

Look, I figured it out with the school, then went back and found out why I did worked. I've solved more algae issues than anyone I know or have run into.

I do not chase nutrients

EI is simple to rule out nutrient based causes and newbies can do it cheap.
Then it's CO2.

Hair algae is not that tough with some mechanical removal, you can starve it out in some cases, not all.

But hand removal/water changes etc seem to work well, but the other environmental methods mentioned here also can help potenitally.

I personally would not use them, but they may work in some cases with hair algae.

As far as AF rift fish? Dude they rock!!!
Tangy's are my fav.

Look Anafranil, i have more schooling than I know what to do with, I'm here starting Doc work at UC Davis in Plant Biology. I know all the top folks in the field of aquatic plants in this hemisphere and a few over seas.

School may help you to some degeree. 
If you want to learn about aquatic plants go to Duke or UF in Gainesville.
Plan on Grad school.

I'm not sure things will apply quite like you may have hoped even after all that.

If you are having issues, I will help anyone thinking about giving it up till you get it right.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

trenac said:


> For a little extra help you can use Phos-Guard to help remove P04 and Algone to remove N03.


They don't help remove/reduce algae.
If they did, I should have lots of algae, but I do not.
I've added NO3 to over 100ppm, 5ppm of PO4, no algae.
This is a repeatable observation.

So I think you can rule that out as a cause.
If the water is over that or over at all, a simple water change does the trick.

Hair algae does seem to do well in tanks with less than optimal CO2 and NO3.
Fine needled plants moss, riccia etc anything that the algae can entangle in easily makes it tougher for removal.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Jan 23, 2004)

mikeyG said:


> 50G oceanic
> 100 lbs eco complete
> 3 wpg cf 9325 bulbs (on for 10 hours per day)
> pressurized CO2 with solonoid (off with the lights - Milwaukee setup)
> ...


I think you need to add a tad more CO2 and do some good sized water changes. You can do more than 50%, try like 80% and make sure you pick and clean the plants before hand, then do the water change last after you clean, clean filter etc.

I would suggest pruning and preening the tank in 1/3 to 1/2 sections very well and keep the CO2 up.

Dose:
Flourish or TMG, 10mls 3x a week
KNO3: 1/2 teaspoon, 3x a week
SeaChem EQ 1/2 teaspoon once a week(or a Poor Man's SeaChem EQ, see thread)
KH2PO4 at 1/8 teaspoon 3x a week

If you have plenty of CO2, plenty of nutrients and do the large water changes, why would your plants not do well?

GSA occurs for one of two reasons: PO4 or low CO2.

You have mainly stem plants, any that allow hair algae to tangle, prune them often or remove them for now and add them after the algae is gone.

I've posted a few solutions to hair algae, it's muchy more like a plant than the other algae.

And high PO4 will get rid of GSa if the CO2 is good, I've seen this a dozen times in my own tank and have confirmed it with liternally hundreds of other folks.

Try this and see what you think.
It's basic meat and potatos type work, but it works well.
Amano shrimps, SAE's, Flagfish etc in packs will also clear up hair algae well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mikeyG (May 4, 2005)

Hey Tom,

First, thanks for the advise and time put into your posts. I got to tell you however that I have had consistant CO2 between 35 and 45 ppm, and consistant PO4 at anywhere between 3 and 10 ppm, and the GSA is and has been all over most everything for the past 6 or 7 weeks. My NO3 has likewise been between 20 and 50 (my fault I guess although I dose less than 1/4 tsp of KNO3 2x/week). Things here in Plantland South just don't seem to match most of the consensus experiences.

I do weekly 50% wc and pull the thread algae out a couple times a day.

Not giving up but just didn't think that it would be like this when I started spending my $2515 (total to date).


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## MatPat (Mar 22, 2004)

mikeyG said:


> Not giving up but just didn't think that it would be like this when I started spending my $2515 (total to date).


No one ever said planted tanks were cheap!  They are a labor of love in my opinion! I hate to think of what I have spent on this hobby over the past two years!



mikeyG said:


> I got to tell you however that I have had consistant CO2 between 35 and 45 ppm, and consistant PO4 at anywhere between 3 and 10 ppm, and the GSA is and has been all over most everything for the past 6 or 7 weeks.


To this I have to say don't rely on your test kits quite so much! SLOWLY increase your CO2. Find some time where you will be around most of the day and keep an eye on the fish. When they go to the surface for oxygen (this is the max level for your fish) cut the CO2 back a little bit. This will ensure you have adequate CO2. Again, take it slow so you don't OD the fish.



mikeyG said:


> My NO3 has likewise been between 20 and 50 (my fault I guess although I dose less than 1/4 tsp of KNO3 2x/week). Things here in Plantland South just don't seem to match most of the consensus experiences.


Again, don't put quite so much faith in your test kits. Maybe even put them away for a couple of weeks...Use the Force Mikey G 



mikeyG said:


> I do weekly 50% wc and pull the thread algae out a couple times a day.


Been there done that and doing it again right now! Seems my CO2 tank ran out Friday, maybe even Thursday. Makes it a real hassle since the CO2 cylinder supplies 3 of my tanks with CO2! Didn't notice it until yesterday! I had some green dust/green spot forming on the glass and a bit of thread starting to show. Luckily, I have a spare tank since I have to wait to get the empty one refilled!

Try a toothbrush on the thread algae. Not like you use it on your teeth but more like twirling spagetti with a fork. The brush will hold it well! If you are removing it daily, turn off the filters when you "twirl" the algae. This will help keep some of the loose peices from blowing around the tank and reattaching on other plants.


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## stcyrwm (Apr 20, 2005)

My 4 tanks are all officially hair alge free after a long battle. One of the keys to my battle was what one member called a "scorched earth" policy. The hair algae seemed to clearly favor a couple plants in my tanks so along with all the other things Matt said, I eventually ripped up those plants where they really seemed anchored in. This was the final blow that gave me the edge. 

Good luck, Bill


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## trenac (Jul 16, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> They don't help remove/reduce algae


I meant they help reduce the amounts of P04/N03 in the water, not remove or reduce algae.


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## mikeyG (May 4, 2005)

Y'all are too kind! Thanks for the pointers, and for your concern as well!!


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