# DIY stand question



## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

I just got a ADA 60-p tank form ADG :whoo: and I am intending on building a stand similar to the one ADA sells.
ADG has it in limited quantities but the price, ouch.
What material is best for this? I was looking into using MDF but I am a little unsure about its strength and durablility.

any thoughts?


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

I built an ADA style stand for my 50. Sidesm top and bottom are 1" Ultralight MDF, back is 1/2" MDF and doors are 3/4" MDF. The cabinet is double biscuited together adn glued with yellow glue. The back is a very tight fit and is screwed in. As long as you make the verticle parts support the weight you will be fine. What I mean by that is, the top sits on the sides and the sides sit on the bottom. None of the weight of the tank is on the joinery. Actually in my case, the bottom is between the sides; however, I have a 1" toe set back 3/8" from the sides so the sides actually sit on that.

For a 60cm (24") tank you will be fine. You would probably not even need a center divider, especially if you biscuited and glued a ~3" head piece along the front to the bottom of the top.

If you need any other help, feel free to ask me (or MatPat who is also a furniture maker).


----------



## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

Dennis,
This is what I had in mind
All 3/4" MDF, all support will be bearing on the two sides and back panels. A full sheet will be on the top to help distribute the load (attached with clips), and a shelf at the bottom. all panels will be glued & screwed. I do not have access to a biscuit tool...maybe I should get one.

Here is a Drawing









Thanks for the info and the help


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

That looks pretty good to me. You should really use soem structural joinery beside screws. What tools do you have access to?


----------



## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

I was thinking of using metal angle clips for the structural joinery. I know it is a little overkill, but its cheap and will help me hold the right angles.


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

If that is what you have then it will be fine. They will ad lots of durability. If you have access to a tablesaw (I am assuming you do since you somehow need to cut the part accuratly) I would consider running a tounge on the sides of the back and a groove in the sides to accept it. THis would add a TON of glue surface and strength. If you could dado, or biscuit, the bottom into the sides and back it would be even better. Another option is to glue 1"x1" strips of wood into all the corners once the case is assembled.


----------



## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

thanks for the pointers Dennis I do have a table saw and will add the tounge and groove to the back and side panels..very good point. I also like the 1x1 strips in the corners for reinforecment. If I can get ahold of a biscuit cutter, I will use it.

Thanks for all your help

I will take pics of the assembly and final product and post them.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

Tongue and groove joints aren't recommended for MDF. Much of that materials strength is in the surface, which is the most dense part of it. If you put a continuous groove across the material you have weakened it quite a bit. The strongest way to use it is to have the top sit on the sides, with glue and screws being an adequate way to hold them together. The best screws have a large pitch, not a fine pitch. The back sheet of MDF is primarily for racking resistance, so doesn't have to be 3/4 inch thick. And, the narrow strip across the front, under the top should be adequate to keep the top flat. I have made a lot of cabinets with this material, using both biscuit joints and screw together joints and brad nailer joints. All any of those do is hold the parts until the glue cures. I gave up any form of grooves in using the material because it did noticably weaken the structure of it.


----------



## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

As a matter of fact I just built an ADA-ish stand for my 60cm tank. Here is a link to the thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/do-it-yourself/27304-ada-tank-stand.html If you like it I can send you the print on the way I built it. I did make it from 3/4" MDF as well.

Edit: Make sure when you use MDF that you pre-drill ALL of your holes or the wood will split. I learned this the hard way when I built a speaker bo years ago.


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

In my experience, a well glued (ie Gorilla glue) tongue and groove joint is way stronger than just butt glueing the edge to the face. That actually is useless for glue strength and you are really just relying on the screws in the end. Ideally, the sides would continue past the back an additional 1/2 inch which adds a lot of strength to the weakest part, the small piece left on the back of the sides . 

The best screws are ones made specially for MDF and you need a special drill bit for these. Check with Rockler or WoodCraft. The next best solution and one that is perfectly adequate is to use coarse thread #8 drywall screws, again predrilling but you do not need a special bit. I believe a #8 is best predrilled with a 9/64 but I could be wrong. Use a bit bigger than seems appropriate and do a test peice to be sure.

The back actually can support a lot of the weight, especially with an ADA style tank that does not have the plastic frame. Sure, 3/4" is overkill but I find it easier, and cheaper, to buy one sheet of 3/4" versus a sheet of 3/4" and 1/2 or 1 sheet of 1/2". Using 3/4" also gives a lot more glue surface/joinery strength, especially when considering that he is not using buscuits and may even be using screws.

I have to say though that I would rabit in the back and glue it in when I was done. I was not sure if you have the equipment for that task.


----------



## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

Ajax nice stand
I see that you laminated it looks good

I was thinking about painting mine when it is finished, inside and out. Nothing special just store bought spray paint applied in multiple thin coats.

after reading Ajax's Thread I am a little concerned about properly sealing it.

What paint would be recomended for MDF.


----------



## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

I think it will look a lot better if you laminate it bro. Believe me it is real easy. That was my first time working with laminate, and it turned out real nice. The laminate for a 4x8 sheet was $67 from Loews, Ryobi router was $70 (nice small router that worked great, or you may be able to borrow), 1/4" flush bit was $9 & glue was like $12 for 2 quarts. I cut it out with a real sharp pair of tin snips, and as long as you leave about 1/2" overhang you won't have any probs with chips showing on the edges. I have enough left that I can laminate the underside of the top, the bottom & part of the back. I may get another small sheet to finish it off right. I mean we are talking about an ADA set-up where appearance is everything :lol:


----------



## kwc1974 (Jan 4, 2006)

Yeah I know for an ADA appearance is everything
The thing is I was over at ADG to pick up my tank and I looked at a ADA stand and it looked like it had a painted finish. No laminate seams at all, looked very clean without the seams.

Could be wrong, would not be the first time.


----------



## Ajax (Apr 3, 2006)

kwc1974 said:


> Yeah I know for an ADA appearance is everything
> The thing is I was over at ADG to pick up my tank and I looked at a ADA stand and it looked like it had a painted finish. No laminate seams at all, looked very clean without the seams.
> 
> Could be wrong, would not be the first time.


You're talking about the iwagumi tank in the conference room? I believe that the ADA stands are a melamine wood product, but I could be wrong also  You might be able to achieve something close with paint though.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

I suspect that stand had a sprayed laquer finish. That is hard to do well without a good spray gun and a spray booth, plus some experience. Laminate is far easier. Be carefull handling laminate - it can be very sharp and do some serious cutting. The edges left where it breaks are almost like knives. And speaking of breaking, it is possible to score the surface well and break it at the scored line. In any case, Ajax gave you some good advice about cutting it oversize and using a small router to trim it.


----------



## thinkfaster (Oct 3, 2005)

Does anyone recommend having a "cushion" between the tank and the stand? I have plywood on the top and currently there is 1/2" styro serving as a cushion. I am a bit concerned that it might give out resulting in a big puddle (it's a 125g tank). Any feedback is greatly appreciated.


----------



## freydo (Jan 7, 2006)

you will find that a lot of people have styro, of various thicknesses, between tank and stand to help distribute the weight. the styro helps level off tank and prevent stress points on the bottom that could result in the glass cracking.

this is typically required for all glass tanks.

*** i'd like to clarify that people tend to use rigid foam insulation that you would get at Home Depot, or something similar.


----------



## timlawyer (May 2, 2006)

*avoid MDF*

I have about as much experience in woodworking as I do with aquascaping - which is to say - I'm just experienced enough to share all the mistakes I have made.
I would avoid MDF for several reasons: 1) weight to strength ratio is not as good as others (birch plywood); 2) can withstand compression very well, but not torsion or shear forces nearly as well; 3) if it gets wet (particularly on the unfinished edges) it will soak up the water and expand then contract - eventually this may lead to relative structural weakness; 4) hard to work with - very dusty, cannot be tooled well, cannot hold screws very well.
I would recommend (based upon your sketch and tank) using 3/4 Birch plywood. For additional rigidity, you could double up the plywood (glue two pieces together) for some of the load bearing beams. This would make a rock solid bench.


----------



## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

timlawyer said:


> I have about as much experience in woodworking as I do with aquascaping - which is to say - I'm just experienced enough to share all the mistakes I have made.
> I would avoid MDF for several reasons: 1) weight to strength ratio is not as good as others (birch plywood); 2) can withstand compression very well, but not torsion or shear forces nearly as well; 3) if it gets wet (particularly on the unfinished edges) it will soak up the water and expand then contract - eventually this may lead to relative structural weakness; 4) hard to work with - very dusty, cannot be tooled well, cannot hold screws very well.
> I would recommend (based upon your sketch and tank) using 3/4 Birch plywood. For additional rigidity, you could double up the plywood (glue two pieces together) for some of the load bearing beams. This would make a rock solid bench.


You are mixing MDF with particle board. Particle board does all of the things you mentioned, but MDF is used for exterior siding on houses, so it is water resistant. I have tested pieces by soaking them, by making plant stakes out of them, by just leaving some outdoors in the rain. No swelling. MDF is used by some kitchen cabinet makers for doors, where a profile is routed on the corners. (I used to do that) So, it does machine very well. It holds screws well if the screws have coarse threads. It's only real weakness is in bending or tension. If you lay a piece between two sawhorses and leave it for an hour it will bend and the bend will stay forever. But, with vertical pieces, with edges supported on horizontal pieces, it is very good. Having said all of that, Birch or Maple plywood is better in strength, lighter, less dust when cutting, but leaves edges that need covering with veneer or strips to hide them. MDF edges finish very well.


----------



## dennis (Mar 1, 2004)

Not all MDF is exterior grade. Exterior grade MDF is actually called Medex and is not water proof, just water resistant. Regular MDF will expand and contract when wet just like particleboard.

MDF is quite suitable as long as it is finished. The edges do finish well but finish even better if it is filled with spackle or bondo proir to finishing. This applies more to spraying lacquer than to brushing. If your brushing or rolling paint, filling is definately not necessary.


----------

