# Big Tank. Big Lights. Need Advice.



## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

I just found this site last night and appears to be wonderful! I'm new to aquatic plants and this is my first post. My name is Tony.

I and some helpers are currently remodeling a building to serve as my new home. It will also be production studios for a non-profit children's educational tv show (I'm the media director and full time volunteer).

We are building a divider wall that divides the entrance of one tv studio from a foyer. We are putting in an approximately 400 gallon acrylic tank that is to be seen from both the foyer and it is actually part of one of the studio sets on the other side.

We debated between saltwater and a freshwater planted tank. Everyone and their brother has saltwater tanks in their tv sets, so we decided to go fresh and planted.

While the installation of the tank is still several months away, we are getting ready to run the electric to the area. So we need to decide what kind of power we are going to need. So me being the fish guy, have the responsibility to decide what lighting we will be using. *I need your advice!*

Tank is custom acrylic, measuring 84" long, 34" deep and 30-32" tall. It will be heavily planted with a range of plants. Of course we will be adding Co2, ferts and whatever else is required (you'll be seeing quite a few more posts from me about these things as we progress).

What lighting do you plant experts recommend? Metal Halide? Rows of Compact fluorescent? We are not set on any one particularly. But we need to view the overall picture of initial cost, bulb replacement and energy used to run.

We would like a relatively even light as it will be used on tv and dark spots may not look so swell. Because we are non-profit kid oriented, cost IS an issue. We would like to do this just as cheap as possible but are willing to raise what we need to raise to do the project _right_. Lights can be as ugly as heck, they are all hidden in the wall... so style is not an issue.

In case it matters at all, tank will house Discus, Angelfish, array of Apistos, several large schools of tetras, and lots of cories.

C'mon, I'm looking for some free advice.  Of course I'll post pictures as we go along!

Thanks!

Tony


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## cs_gardener (Apr 28, 2006)

With the tank being 30-32 tall I think you'd have trouble getting enough light to the bottom using CF. I've no experience with metal halide, but that is probably the way you'll need to go in order to get enough light to the plants.

BTW, welcome to APC! I'm looking forward to seeing how this will progress.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

I second the suggestion for Metal Halides. While they may require some extra cash and cooling, they should provide enough light and always, that pretty gleaming shadow effect.

You could probably save some cash on retrofit kits.

Welcome and please post pictures when the time comes!!


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Welcome to APC! This sounds like a cool project! 

With a tank this deep, it will be difficult to reach the bottom for constant pruning. I would suggest using lower maintenance plants like crypts and java fern. I can't wait to see the progress!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Tony,

This sounds like a fabulous project. I really think you've made a bold choice to go with a planted tank. Done correctly, they are absolutely stunning. I recently set up a 180g tank (72"x24"x24") in my basement which is much, much smaller than what you're contemplating. The logistical issues that arise with large tanks do so exponentially. A 180g tank is a LOT more than twice as much work as a 90g tank. Expenses scale up very quickly too.

I trust that you've got the necessary resources to do this correctly. There are certain things you can skimp on and certain things that will require a bit of money to do right. When it comes to lighting for a beast this size the only real option in my opinion is metal halide. I'd probably recommend three 250W fixtures, which would give you about 1.6 wpg. This would allow you to grow almost any of the slower-growing, low-maintainence type plants, even at the depths that you're proposing and will probably avoid any dark areas. If appearance isn't an issue, I'd go with retrofit kits. I can refer you to a few suppliers when you get closer to a decision. You could always go with five or six 150W fixtures too. Bulbs & ballasts would probably cost more though.

Keeping 750W of lighting in an enclosed space will generate tons of heat. If the top isn't open I'd recommend installing some large but _quiet_ (ENORMOUSLY important on a set) ventilation fans. You'll be amazed at how the tank gets cooked if you neglect this. I'd plan on circutry to allow for about 2,500 watts continuous load. This would handle the lighting, heaters, pumps, timers, and a few other odds & ends with a little room to spare. Make sure it's all supplied on a GFI circuit.

I'd absolutely recommend a closed-loop system to allow for filtration, UV (optional, but recommended if it has to look good on filming days), heating, and CO2 addition all in one convenient location. You'll need some massive quantities of CO2 for a tank this size. My 180g uses a 20-lb cylinder every 5 or 6 months. You'll need a suitable space to keep this and other equipment hidden from view. Getting CO2 evenly distributed to the entire aquarium is sometimes an issue with larger setups.

You'll need some careful planning when it comes to equipment. Discus are beautiful, but possibly a bit touchy for a tank that won't get daily TLC. I assume you're an experienced aquarist, but another fish choice might be more forgiving.

Four bits of unsolicited advice:

1) Don't attempt a tank of this size unless you've got plenty of experience with establishing and keeping succesful smaller planted tanks. This is especially true if it has to look good by a certain deadline. I'm not the dumbest planted tank guy on the block, but had to deal with a horrific algae storm that affected my 180g tank for the first 6 weeks of it's existence. It looked like a living sewer for the entire time.

2) Do the plumbing and electrical work right the first time. Spend the money, hire the right people, don't skimp on things that will bite you later on.

3) Don't underestimate the total cost required for a tank of this size. I don't know what you've budgeted, but I'd guess you'll be into it at $3,000 to $5,000 beyond the cost of the tank, stand, and cabinetry. You could certainly get away with less, but each corner you cut makes it a bit more likely that you'll get a nightmare instead of a beautiful addition to the studio.

4) Automation is ABSOLUTELY required for a tank this size. My 180g tank requires about 15 or 20 minutes of attention per day and about 3 hours of trimming, cleaning, and fussing every two weeks. I grow lots of stem plants that require frequent attention, so you might get away with less. I can reach the bottom of my tank though (just barely, with a stepstool), which is a luxury that you WILL NOT HAVE. Plan accordingly. Long tweezers and scissors are nice, but they only get you so far.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks for your replies, especially guaiac_boy for your long and well put reply. I'd like to comment and add a couple additional questions about what you said.

As far as sources, of course we can always use more.  However, we are taking our time and will be purchasing pieces and parts over the course of the next 6-8 months. We are non-profit and hope to ask for donations for some of the needed components as well. The cost is going to have to be spread out, hopefully with a very exciting culmination.

I am a fish enthusiast myself with a moderate amount of experience. I currently have two 55's a 20 and a 125 myself. However, I'm not experienced with plants at all. This will be changing over the next several months though as I anticipate making both of my 55's planted to start gaining experience. As I mentioned, I'll actually be living in this production center as well. So I'm giving all plants and fish I raise over the next 8 months to the organization for this large tank. In return, I get to use the equipment as we obtain it, so I hope to gain experience with it. I'll be doing all the maintenance, TLC, and a whole bunch of enjoying of this new big tank as well.

As far as the matience goes, I'm hoping to be able to do all trimming, cleaning, replanting, ect. at the time of the weekly water change when 40% of the water is emptied. As for how I've tested, I should be able to reach the bottom of the tank when standing on a ladder with my whole upper body in the cabinet/wall. LOL! We are making very large doors so I can really get in there. We would also like to put the lights on some sort of pulley so I can raise them out of the way. As for lights...

I'm very interested in keeping fast growing stem plants in this tank as well. Due to the fact that you can get a very thick and full look with them, are very bright and grow fast enough that I can hopefully propagate the tank relatively quickly. Will I need more than the 750 watts you suggested? I don't think making the tank too bright will be an issue, because when the tank is in the set and the set is live, there will be more than 2500 watts of hot, tungsten light blaring down.

We are still trying to work out ventilation. How big of fans are you talking? Will several computer style fans be adequate or are we talking radiator fans?

Thanks for the electrical advise. I'm not the electrical guy, but we have a couple very smart volunteers in that area and I'm going to pass the link of this thread onto them.

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to read this!!!


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Oh, and as for the Discus, we definitely won't start out with them. They are a dream... maybe down the road. I'm thinking maybe Pearl Gouramis at the get go.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

The temperatures needed to keep discus happy interfere with many plant choices. Successful planted tank discus keepers have figured out ways to deal with this, but it's worthy of mentioning.

As far as air movement for the lights is concerned, most computer fans are really too small to be effective for this sort of project (unless you use tons of them). You'd be much better off with some large (6"), low-speed fans. Allied Electronics has a website with tons of options. Just pay close attention to the sound rating (dB) and voltage (12V vs 115V).

Be careful with rapid-growing stem plants in a tank that size. You can easily push the trimming requirements to an hour or two *per day*. My 180g is maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of stemmies and it already takes so much time that I'm transitioning to fewer and fewer of them. If you want to grow some of the higher-light plants I'd probalby go with closer to 1,000W of MH for a tank that deep. That should be adequate for most species.

There are a few journals around on the internet for bigger tanks. Scolley at Planted Tank is doing one right now. I journaled my 180g setup here if you're interested. It might give you some ideas and thoughts about the initial setup. Once the hardware is in place you're sort of stuck sleeping in the bed you've made.

Yes, yes - absolutely get some experience with the 55g tanks. You'll need to figure out what sort of plants do well in certain positions in the tank. You'll also want to learn trimming techniques before you need scuba gear to work on it. Aquascaping a tank that size requires some thought too.

Putting the lights on a pulley system is a great idea. A handy cabinetmaker or carpenter could easily rig up some rails that would allow the lights to smoothly move up and down. Be careful to keep in mind the need for some light so that you can see what you're doing at maintainence time. Jostling hot MH lamps might shorten their lifespan too, but I'm no expert in that category.


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## Laith (Sep 4, 2004)

Welcome to APC! 

Take a second look at point number 3 in guaiac_boy's first reply. For big tanks, the cost is what usually surprises people.

And for big planted tanks, the cost of the plants is almost always underestimated. Remember, to get a good running headstart in having a beautiful planted tank, you should plant heavily from day one. Adding a plant here and there over time is not the best way to go!

So make sure you budget for a heavy plant mass...

Sounds like a great project: good luck!

Here's some interesting reading material that will give you some basics on planted tanks:

http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/01_intro.html

www.rexgrigg.com

Enjoy!


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## 30searay (May 1, 2007)

I thought I would chime in with some advice from a fellow newbie to larger, planted aquariums. I have a 30 inch deep 110 gallon (48x18x30) that has been up and running for only a few months. I have had planted aquariums for over 15-20 years but never larger than a 55 gallon. For reference, I run compact florescents (6x55watt - 330 watts/3wpg) that appear to do quite well with most types of stem plants. Lights my kitchen up like a christmas tree but my kids love it. I am still experiementing with various types of plants. 

The tank is only now beginning to look like I originally envisioned. Figuring out which plants will do well is still quite a project for me with these depths. Ground cover plants (glosso, baby tears, etc) are not doing well at all. Crypts are doing very well though, and spreading already. Algae on the leaves of the crypts seems pretty tough to stop though. The stem plants grow ridiculously fast with CO2 - watch out. My hygrophilia grew from 2 inches tall to crawling across the top of the tank (and shadowing my large swords) in under 2 weeks! Cutting them back doesn't slow them down. I am already seeking out alternatives.... Other stems that I like better in my tank are Cabomba, which is doing well but grows slower (a teeny bit) and anacharis (easier to trim and replant than hygro). I am just now experimenting with some red leaf stem plants such as Rotala Indica and Rotala Magenta. 

I would note too that the algae disaster I encountered around week 6 was one I hope to never see again, although it is now well under control. It was just too difficult to stop with limited plant biomass and so much high-intensity light. Sticking to fertilization schedules and waiting for the plants to really kick in got it under control (along with the appropriate tank mates). 

The last lighting issue I am still dealing with is the heat generated from the CF lighting (I would believe that metal halide is even hotter). With the enclosed canopy the lights have heated the tank up to 87 degrees, which has been cooking my fish. I am still working through solutions to this problem and some other members here have helped me find the fans necessary to (hopefully) get under control soon. I am still running over 80 degrees right now. 

Footnote: my entire set-up to date has cost over $35/gallon.


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## Jessie (Apr 23, 2007)

On the note that Laith mentioned about the cost of the plants, definitely keep your eyes on the For Sale or Trade board here. You can get some mighty good deals on quality, homegrown plants. I'm sure a lot of people here will be more than happy to help out.

when you first set the tank up, fast growing stem plants will help suck up excess nutrients so algae can't get to them. However, for a tank that size, I can't imagine trying to trim and keep after some of the happy weeds that are possible, so it would definitely help to plan a long-term aquascape and plant collection so you are not chest-deep every week trying to control everything.

I have a 125g, and while it is dwarfed by the size your tank will be, it's still amazing how much of a daunting project tanks can be when they go over the 6-foot mark (it seems). Smaller sizes are easier to tear apart and play with layouts, etc. However, even with my 125g, arranging or rearranging is a real all-day undertaking. Make some sketches, form some solid plans and look around at other's big tanks to get some ideas so you can make it beautiful and yourself happy the first time.

Aquabid and Ebay are also really good sources for new or gently used equipment without the massive cost.

I wish you tons of luck! This is really an exciting and respectable project you've taken on!

Oh, and here's a page with tons of eyecandy, and most notably -- a section of XXL tanks to help contribute some ideas to the effects you can create. Keep in mind, this guy has access to all the diamond-encrusted bells and whistles, but you can at least see some big tanks and how they're laid out. http://www.plantella.com/


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## SKSuser (Mar 20, 2006)

With sound being an issue, I'd look into some of the remote inline bathroom fans.
I havn't used this brand, but HERE'S a link so you visualize what I'm talking about.
Its a way to ventalate the area, while having the fan in another part of the building.

What are your plans to keep the studio lights from creating a glare on the acrylic?


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

SKS, those fans look promising. I'm going to do some more research on those. Glare will be eliminated because the lights will be very high shining down. There will be NO way to eliminate reflection however. The key is to control what you are reflecting. Cameras, lightstands and people would obviously look bad. However, a large strategically placed black curtain will look like no reflection at all.

Thanks a bunch to everyone contributing.

After a couple lengthy discussions with other volunteers, I really don't think we are going to be able to use Metal Halide. I would LOVE to but, I'm extremely concerned about the heat issue and the fact that to run enough fans to keep it cool is going to sound like an airplane hanger. In our studio, we run about 2500 watts of metal halide for our softbox lighting. Our studio easily reaches 90 degrees after 45 minutes. The electric guy says we are going to be pulling a lot of power and he is concerned. He wants to run florescent lighting of some sort.

If we are willing to give up certain species of plants, can we get away with CF units? How would 12 X 96 watt units sound? That gives us a total of 1152 watts of light.

I'm thinking 6 of these with homemade reflectors:

http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=201

I've made up a little diagram in photoshop, please take a look at it. The wall this is enclosed in is 10' 3" tall!


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Have you considered T5 lighting? I don't know much about them, but the Tek reflectors are supposed to be the bee's knees.

Here is a thread to help you.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...rium-projects/37989-diy-t5ho-6-long-tank.html

Also, If you do decide to go with PCs, consider AHSupply lights. Their retrofit kits come highly recommended!

http://ahsupply.com/


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## net (Mar 27, 2007)

I would recommend the 30" tall. 1- its easier to reach the bottom. 2- the light gets to the bottom better too. Lighting, think about your layout. If the tank is to be a room divider, do you want the plants to be thick in the middle? thick to the ends with the middle open? or what. That may dictate the lighting layout. I know of a similar tank with 4-175 MHs with 2, 6" VHOs one on each side of the halides. Vent with a fan that has large blades, computer fans, and bathroom fart fans wont cut it. There are some small/powerfull fans at Wallmart, also cheep.
Also think about filtration, I would go through the bottom with large eheims. You can use inline eq. such as CO2 reactors and heaters. My point is - think about hole placement. 
Have a look at ADGs website, there is lots of large plant tanks for inspiration.


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## 30searay (May 1, 2007)

Tony,

I would be happy to show you the results to date with my set up (CF 6x55) on my 110 gallon if you're interested. I worked with AH Supply to put the lighting kit together out of Phoenix and found Ken to be very helpful there. He spent a lot of time with me on the phone to help me put everything together, over an hour.

Also, I was actually looking more closely today at my glosso and it is starting to pearl a bit, so after 2weeks it is recovering slowly from shipment (Baby tears not so good yet). So even the high maintainence ground cover is starting to show positive results from CF at my 30 inches depth. 

Don


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

I have Tek T5, they are awsome, shouldn't be a problem getting to the bottom of the 30" tank, and if it is, for the shallow substrate area, use lower light and shade needing plants and build up some substrate really high in the back corners and there you can plant ground covers that like high light and have grassy hill tops in your tank, and then the T5 will be more then enough.

A couple of the Tek 3 foot or 2 foot x 4 or 6 lamp fixtures should work well and will get more light over all of your tank then the smaller focus the MH bulbs cover, unless you get alot of them and then you might deal with higher temps and of course lots of $$$$$

Not that the Tek is cheap, but is cheaper and cheaper to run.

Either way, great project you have here. Be sure to keep us posted with lots of pics of this progression.

And Welcome to APC


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Sure, I'd love to see pictures, if you have them. I'm a visual learner. 

If going the CF route, I'm definitely going with AH. Several people have told me great stories, so I don't think it's a coincidence. Also, their prices seem very good!


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestion, goalcreas. Could you provide a link with more info about the Tek T5's?


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

www.sunlightsupply.com

Look at the Tek line and the Sun blaze and New Wave for T5

They also make amazing MH and MH / PC or MH / T5 combo lights (Maristar) but they are $$$$$$$$$ with $ being cheap and $$$$$ being expensive. Great lights though.

They have other options for MH and T5 also, they have a great line of lights there.

For prices, don't go by their online prices, you can get them cheaper on E-bay and they are drop shipped from sunlight supply all the same.

You can even contact sellers on e-bay and they can do better then they sell on e-bay sometimes.

the seller SEEDS is a good one to check out on e-bay and contact him thru e-mail and when you are no longer communicating thru e-bay, see what he can do.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I don't know exactly how quiet the setup has to be, but if you're wanting MH lighting for an 8 foot tank, I'd go with 2-3 of these setups:
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics...tal-halide-ss10-remote-grow-light-p-1251.html
With two, you'd have 800 watts and decent coverage over the entire area of the tank, especially since these are hydroponic lights and are designed to cover a large area. The drawback is that these are run on magnetic ballasts which get HOT and have a low hum to them.

If it has to be absolutely silent (or as close as possible to slient), you could do a retrofit with 4 of these guys: http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=530
Plus two of these guys: http://www.aquacave.com/detail.aspx?ID=1173
The plus of this is that it uses an electronic ballast which is quieter and produces less heat. Not sure if that's a factor for you, but if it is, then that's a viable option. A tad more expensive, but...

Oh...and fans. Lots and lots and lots of fans.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

The lots and lots of fans is an issue. Which is the main reason I'm now leaning more toward a fluorescent option of some sort. Also, hums have got to be kept to a minimum or we risk the chance of introducing noise into our audio recording. Whatever the lights, they will be split in half and each have their own dedicated 20 amp circuit.


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## Squawkbert (Jan 3, 2007)

There will be no appreciable difference between HO T5 and PC ballasts with respect to hum, RF, or heat (ballasts or bulbs... ballasts do get warm, bulbs get hot). They're pretty well interchangeable.

T5 and PC will both work. I suspect that T5s are a little more efficient, meaning you may get the same result with a slightly lower total wattage. If you go T5, get Tek reflectors. If you go PC, get AHsupply reflectors. They're both significantly better than any DIY you're likely to come up with. They're designed to efficiently direct the light down, into the tank and don't allow it to go everywhere else.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I think the issue with using PC/T5s is getting penetration through 30-32" of water. That's a DEEP tank. Heck, my tank is 36" LONG!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

CFs and T-5s are great, but honestly, I'd NEVER try to light a tank that deep with fluorescents. The visual effect of MH's is far superior too - nice shimmering light such as would be seen in nature. MH's do produce heat - but so does every other form of lighting. 1 watt of electricity produces about 1 watt of heat, minus the small percentage that actually gets converted to light. Fluorescent fixtures spread this heat out over the entire length of the tube, and as a result, the surface of the bulb isn't that warm. MH bulbs are quite small, meaning the same heat energy is emitted from a much smaller surface that is much hotter. In an enclosed space, such as over an aquarium, the heat produces from an equivalent # of watts is almost identical, irrespective of the type of lighting used. 1,000W of CF light will produce as much heat and use as much electricity as 1,000W of MH. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand the basic science behind the issues.

My 180g tank uses 450W of MH lighting and an additional 156W of T-5 lighting. I have *NO* fans and have no heating issues whatsoever. The top is designed to hold the lights about 10-12" up from the surface and the top of the canopy is farily open which permits good ambient air circulation. Maximum temperature variation in the tank is less than 2 degrees F during the daylight hours.

Your enclosure seems to have a fairly open top. I'd guess with a bit of moderate airflow that the heat will be less of an issue than you think. People get into heat trouble when they try to use an enclosed lighting unit directly up against the glass of the top.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

I think you guys are just making this MORE difficult!!!


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Is it possible that you could simply turn off the cooling fans while you are filming? Even if you turn them off for a couple of hours, a water column that size will not heat up appreciably.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

FreakIndeed...there's just so many options.

But I think the MH fixtures I linked you to would give you the best bang for your buck. Like guaiac_boy, i wouldn't go for PC or T5 lighting at all. 

That hydroponic MH setup will give you good coverage, lots of light, good penetration...and it's relatively cheap for the amount of light it produces.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

From what I understand, T5 can penetrate just as deep as MH, just no shimmer effect.
PC, will NOT penetrate that deep.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Well, there are VERY few tanks >24" deep that I'm aware of that are lit by anything but MH lighting, especially once you get into the 200+ gallon range. I wouldn't fret too much about the cooling issues. As I see it, if the lighting fixtures are somewhat open and a bit raised up from the tank you probably won't even need fans. This is true for MH, CF, T-5, or any other option. The type of lighting does not determine the need for supplemental cooling, the installation does. Any sort of lighiting fixture _in an encolsed space_ will need airflow. If you do need it, there are several ways to do it without producing noise. The cooling fans I use make no more noise than my Eheim cansiter filter - which is nearly zero. The trick is to buy the right kind of fan for the job.

I'm not saying you can't do this project successfuly without MH lighting, but I think you'll be happier with the end result if you do. The shimmering quality of the light adds so much to the overall effect, especially when seen in person. The tank seems more alive and natural. You'll probably end up spending less money in the end too. If you opt to go with a bank of 96W CF fixtures you'll need multiple ballasts, bulbs, and reflectors. With MH you'll probably be fine with 3 of each component. You might want to try filming around a tank with MH lighting and CF lighting to get a comparison of the way the two would look. Things have a way of looking different on TV.

Tony, where are you located? Chances are pretty good that we have some members in your area that with some setups that you could look at. Big tanks are a whole different animal.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Now that you mention, I didn't realize I hadn't finished filling in my profile. We are just north of Columbus, OH.

I think we have made a decision (see new attached image). We are going with metal halide. I know the "shimmering" effect you are talking about. We have a LFS here that has about a 300 gallon tank lit by MH, granted it's a reef tank, but I can get the picture. I think it will look amazing on video tape (high definition even!).

Without a doubt, MH is going to give a better picture on TV than fluorescent. I've already experimented with this on my 55 gallon using fluorescent and our MH tv lights to light the tank.

After much discussion we feel that four 250 watt MH fixtures can't possibly create much more heat that a cabinet crammed with fluorescent. We are pursuing SKSuser's idea of off site fan ventilation.

MH ends up cheaper in up-front cost.

Plus the depth penetration IS a concern. We really want this tank be green (we think kids would like it ).

Now that we have decided on Metal Halide, where do I get them!?

I was looking at four of these:
http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=170

They would give us 1000 watts which is exactly 2.5 watts a gallon.

Anyone have any other ideas on places to purchase? How about any companies that would like to work with a 501c3 non-profit organization in return for being mentioned in the credits of every show using the aquarium? Plus you get a tax right off!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

...uh, did you check out the hydroponics fixtures I linked you to? They'd be cheaper.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

I got my MH retro kit from Hellolights. They're great to work with and their packaging was absolutely top-notch.

I think you might like this one better:
http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1325

I have the 150W version of this same reflector on my tank. The nice thing with this one is that it comes with glass covers which shield the bulb from splash & spray damage. You really need a UV shield of some sort with MH bulbs. If you don't go with a covered reflector you'll need to design a glass cover somewhere else between the bulbs and the water. It's a few more $$ per unit, but you might save in the long run.

Talk to the guys at Hellolights on the phone before ordering. They were very helpful to me and had some great ideas which I used in my setup. Who knows, they might even be willing to make a deal with you.

BTW, for comparison, 2.5 wpg over a 400g is probably equivalent to 4 wpg on a standard size tank (20-60g). That is VERY intense light (with a huge potential for algae issues). You could almost certainly grow anything with 3x250W.

Personally, if this was my pet project in my home I'd go with 1,000W, especially considering the depth. The extra might make it easier to play around with a few more plant species. If the tank needs to look good every single day then I'd go with less - maybe 1.5 - 2.0 wpg. You might not be able to keep Rotala macranda looking nice and red all the way down to the substrate, but the margin of error between algae soup and a beautiful tank will be much, much larger. A high-light setup will be fairly demanding in terms of careful, consistent CO2, fertilizers, trimming, etc.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

That is a great Idea about the donation in return for publicity.
Many big companies have budgeted for situations like these and when no body asks, they just go unclaimed or into a CEO's pocket.

I would propose to any and all of the places you look for lighting, you might even get them to send out an expert and get a professional installation as well.

Sunlight Supply
Hellio Lights
Foster and Smith
That Pet Place
PetCo
PetSmart

any others out there, give it a try, it won't hurt, and I bet you will get offers from more then one and they will start a bidding war for you.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

epicfish: Believe me, I did not ignore your advise and will looking at those again and considering all the options!

guaiac_boy: I would love to get HQI with the covered reflector, but they don't have the 6500k bulb in 250 watt. When I emailed them, they gave me the link to the one I showed you. How will plants grow under the 10,000k lamps? The bluer tint may look better on tv anyway (I'd need to test that). Or... if I went with those lights from them, should I just get several more 150 watt fixtures? I know the cost would not be as good, but perhaps having more 150 watt fixtures would give better overall tank coverage than just three 250 watt fixtures? I'm heeding your advice and cutting down the amount of light. The last thing we need is algae soup. Plus less cost.

goalcreas: Thanks for the names! The good news is that we have plenty of time before we are actually ready to make the purchase. We have to finish remodeling the entire building and sell our previous building before we are ready to actually install the tank. So we have time to approach about any and everyone to see if they would like to work with us.


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## Kelley (Aug 27, 2006)

Also try reefgeek.


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

aquacave
big al's
even try aquaforest and or ADG
pet solutions
that fish place
aquabuys

I am sure the bigger the company or the more national esposure the company has the better the chance.

Then of course try your more local companies as well.

anybody else have a favorite supplier, post them here for more ideas and chances.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Of course we'll try all sorts of different companies, but you would be surprised how sometimes the "little" guys are so willing to help however they can, but the big "chains" have canned answers and don't give you the time of day (even thought they financially have the best ability). Thanks for more names!


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## goalcreas (Nov 20, 2006)

That can be true, I guess it depends on the company and what they are donating and what they are getting in return.

I have found that the big pet stores have been very generous in handing out large gift cards or many small ones for community events around here that my wife organizes and she goes right into the stores and comes out with so much nice stuff it amazes me. That goes the same for the restaruants and other stores like Curcit City and Best Buy and Costco and just about everyone around here when she organizes an event.

Of course you have a different situation, but you can offer a different benefit to boot.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Hmmm, about the lights - I personally use 8,000K ADA bulbs now. When I first set the tank up I used 6,500K bulbs. They were too yellow for my taste. I haven't used 10,000K bulbs before, but lots of people do and like them just fine. The "optimum" is felt by many people to be in the 8,000K - 9,000K range, but there are very few bulbs made in this range. I suspect that for TV it would be better to be a little on the high end as opposed to the low end of the K rating. Anything between 5,000 and 10,000K grows plants fine - it's just a matter of personal taste.

I'd probably stick with 250W fixtures since you'll get more bang for your buck and they might penetrate the depth a bit better. As long as they're up from the surface 12 inches or so you should still get good coverage with 3 fixtures. The usual wisdom is to use one MH light for every 24"x24" of surface area. Your tank is a tad bigger so you might have a few shadows in the top few inches of the tank in the corners. Usually this isn't a big deal since there will be great coverage down at the substrate, in the mid-zone, and well up into the higher portions of the tank where it's less critical.

You can improve coverage by raising the lights up even higher but the tradeoff is a corresponding loss of intensity. Still, I think the 250's would end up working out ok. A few small shadows up in the corners sometimes produces a nice visual effect, provided you don't over-do it.

I'm sort of re-visiting my advice to go with 750W instead of 1,000W. Either would work fine, but you might have more options with 4x250W. You do have a pretty large surface area and deep tank. Hmmm. I'd personally go with 4x250, but I'm not afraid of an algae fight either. You can always plan ahead so that adding a reflector and re-positioning the others wouldn't be that difficult. Just leave room for an extra ballast, cable, and reflector in your design.


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## oblongshrimp (Aug 8, 2006)

I got my MH lights from Hamilton Technology http://www.hamiltontechnology.com/index.shtml. They are great to work with and their support staff is really helpful. As long as you don't have them in an enclosed space MH lights do not create to much heat (especially if you keep them 8 inches or above the water). I would go with the 4x250 or possibly even 4x175. Less light will allow you more wiggle room in terms of algae and that is probably important since this tank will be viewed a lot and can't afford a bad day....or week. The watt per gallon rule really breaks down with a big tank and although 4x175 is only 1.75 watts per gallon you should be able to grow almost anything you want in there.


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## net (Mar 27, 2007)

I have been following this thread and not getting to involved because there is lots of good, accurate info already. Sometimes you can get to many cooks in the kitchen. 
I have created more large aquariums than I can count. Trust me and everyone else who has said go with MH for a tank this size. 250 or 175 will be fine. For the noise problem I can think of two Ideas. 
Can you have a equipment closet on one end of the tank? If yes put all eq. in there and use sound dampening foam on the walls. If no, then have one side access below the tank and use sound foam below only. Access on the side away from the recording area. The sound foam will trap Heat so don't use it above where the lights are. Put the ballast below, chasseing the cords on the end of the tank out of view. Make sure the manufacture of the lights uses a extra long cord with quick disconnects at the fixture so you can remove the lights if needed. Another good idea that I use allot is a hanging kit. You can slid the light fixture up out of the way to clean and then slide back into place when finished. One big fixture will be heavy and hard to move around, maybe think about two fixtures placed end to end. Then work on one side at a time.
I have worked with all the big names and most have the same guts just different packaging. The bottom line is price and customer service. I have been using PFO Lighting for years, they will build to my specks and are easy to work with. Most of the other guys are good. I have built a business relationship with PFO


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

I think we will go ahead and plan on four fixtures. If it ends up being too much, we can always put the fourth back for a backup. I like the sound of HQI as well and think we'll just go with the 10,000k bulbs. I'd rather the aquarium be more blue than yellow.

Some shadows will add depth to the set, so I'm not too concerned about that.

Thanks for the link, oblongshrimp, I will check them out!

Some good news is today we found that we already have some really nice fan blower units. These came off of an old bus and were used to pull hot air out of the engine area. They move a lot of air and we think they will work great in the basement pulling the hot air through the duct work.

Finally, to address net's idea. We are indeed thinking of some sound proofing material on the inside of the cabinet below the tank (not around the lights). That is where the filters, plumbing, water lines, and even a sink will be installed. We were thinking about mounting the ballasts on the top of the whole structure (not sure if you saw the photo diagram). That way they would be out in the open air and clear away from any recording. Lights and the fans would be on the same switch.


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Cool. I think you're on the right track here. IMO, when it comes to equipment, the lighting setup is the primary design consideration. Once this is figured out the rest of the equipment is pretty flexible. That location seems fine for the ballasts. Just make sure that they can't get wet and that you get enough wire when you order the kits. This is where a phone call really helps. What sort of filtration and circulation system are you considering?

By far the nosiest part of my tank is the pump to circulate water through the closed-loop sytem. By itself the pump is very quiet (it's an Eheim 1260). Once I secured it to the cabinet though the whole thing became a big sounding board with an obnoxious low-pitch hum. I partially solved the issue by placing some rubber material between the cabinet floor and the pump, but I'm now kicking myself for not just placing the pump in the room behind the tank. All of the inlet & outlet plumbing goes back there anyway. Just one more thing to consider.


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## net (Mar 27, 2007)

Sounds good, I have installed ballast on top of canopies lots of times. The only problem is when you can see them, some clients don't like that, but I have some solutions for that too. 
MH and HQI are basically the same thing. As I understand it, A HQI is the same working components as the MH. If you look at the Mh bulb, the center, where it "fires off" is the same as the HQI. The MH has a glass shield around it, and has to be screwed into a large base. This shield and base is what makes it a larger bulb. The big difference is size and with MH you get more Kelvin ratings. The HQI is double ended, which makes it smaller. All this makes the HQI more desirable with the one exception the more Kelvin choices with MH. Also for large reef tanks when you need 400W, there is not HQIs that large. 
I say go for the HQI, if you can find the K rating you want. I have used the ADA bulbs with good results.
note: I am not in the light manufacturing business so I may be off on this one. That is the way it was explained to me a few years ago. 
Can someone out there give a better description of the differences?


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

As for other equipment, I've been giving it a lot of thought.

I'd like 5, maybe even 6 (3 on each end) Rena Filstar XP3 canister filters. I'm a filtration freak, I know. I currently have an XP3 on my personal 55 gallon and really love it.

I'm thinking each canister would be equipped with a 300 watt Hydor in line heater to keep as much equipment out of the tank as possible.

As for circulation, I really liked what you (guaiac_boy) setup in your tank and plan on doing something very similar. Main difference is I was thinking of doubling it. Have each custom spray bar go about half way across the aquarium. The spray bars would need to be in the bottom middle of the tank though since it will be viewed from both sides. I was thinking two 20lb Co2 systems with Rex Rigg regulators. Plus two UV Sterilizers. One of each piece on each side. I'd also like to run the plumbing so that the pumps can pump into a drain for quick water changes. We'll have a water line going straight to the tank for quick fill ups.

I feel after the lights, my next big dilemma is going to be substrate. I'd love to get nutrient rich substrate like eco-complete, but I really don't think it's feasible. We'd be talking over five or six hundred dollars for substrate. When I can get great looking, larger grain pool filter sand for $12 per one hundred pounds. I'm wide open to ideas and suggestions in this area!

Thanks!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

If your tank is acrylic it would be relatively simple to cut some holes near the bottom to permit a partially burried spraybar to be 100% invisible. You could route it through a bulkhead. I really don't like how mine has a vertical 3/4" pipe up the center of the back wall.

As for the hydors - you could certainly get away with 2 or 3 of them. A tank that large won't be very susceptible to temp shifts. About the plumbing - absolutely do it so that WC's are as simple as possible.

When it comes to substrate you have plenty of options. Something inert would work ok but it might require a little closer attention to water column fertilizing. Soilmaster Select would be a very attractive option since it has nice characteristics for a planted tank and is VERY inexpensive. The only drawback with it is its lightweight nature. You could always cap it with something more dense.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

After doing some research on the SoilMaster Select you mentioned, I think it looks promising. I ordered three bags of it from my local Lesco to try out in the smaller tanks I'll be setting up soon to learn how to maintain planted tanks before the big one is set up.

I've read that it can drop PH and KH though. I hope that doesn't cause any problems. After sitting out 24 hours, my tap water has a PH of about 7.8, but it's KH is only about 4 and a half or so.

Thanks!


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Have fun playing with it. Be warned that it can be very dusty at first. There are two ways to deal with this. You can either place it in the tank as-is or do an extensive pre-wash. IMO either way is acceptable. Some part of me believes that the small dust-sized particles are important to nutrient exchange in the root zone. Another part of me thinks it probably doesn't matter that much.

If you decide to use it as-is, fill the tank VERY carefully. If you do it without too much disturbence it won't be bad. The water will be a little dusty at first but should clear up within 12 hours or so. If you aren't careful you'll have genuine mud soup. In that case I'd recommend you siphon out the mud/water and try again, very slowly. Even if you pre-wash it I'd still be careful when filling the tank.

About the effects on the water - most people would find a slight softening effect to be a benefit. Most plants do _slightly_ better at lower KH & pH values and you'll certainly like it if you decide to keep discus or South American tetras. I've been using SMS in one 46g tank and have gradually learned to like it. It's lightweight nature improves a bit over time and it's pretty easy to plant in. It's no good for fine plants like HC, but then again very few substrates are. After a few months it doesn't cloud up when disturbed. The softening effect you refer to gradually fades with time too. My tapwater is GH 12, KH 7 and the tank usually ends up somewhere around KH 4 or 5 - not a big shift.

One possibility is to top it with something like Eco Complete (CaribSea) or Amazonia (ADA). Both of these products have similar coloration and larger particle sizes which would tend to work their way to the top over time. I don't usually care for a mixed or layered substrate (why bother?) but it's an option that might provide some benefits when on a budget.


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## travis (Oct 5, 2004)

I laughed when I read gauic_boy's first post because that is *exactly* what I was thinking - three 250w MH fixtures. I would also supplement them with at least 1 wpg of T-5 fixtures (depending on what you want to grow). I use two 250w MH over my 125G (only 20" deep). I run the MH for six hours in the middle of the photoperiod and run ~160w of T-5 for the full 12 hours (MH's kicking on for the middle six hours). If you plan on having a high light tank with MH I highly recommend this course. CO2 is, of course, a necessity with this much light.

Go with 10000K MH lamps and whatever type of T-5s that you think look good. The MH during mid-day is what really counts for the plants.

And if you have any pics I would love to see them. Good luck man


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks Travis. It's going to be a very long process (months). I will however, post photos of the milestones as they come and go!


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## oblongshrimp (Aug 8, 2006)

Instead of 6 XP3's you may want to look into 2 XP4's or 2 of some other larger filter instead of a bunch of smaller ones.


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## FreakIndeed (Jun 17, 2007)

I really thought about XP4's. However, one XP4 costs twice as much as an XP3. Two XP3's give you 50% more media room than a single XP4. I know it's more to clean, but you could do shifts of 2 every couple weeks. Plus we would have a redundant system that if one filter were to go out it wouldn't be catastrophic.

That was my train of thought anyway... maybe I'm missing something though?


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## BryceM (Nov 6, 2005)

Just my two-bits worth.....

Cleaning and changing anything is a pain. I'd go with 2 filters. If one fails its really not a big deal in a well-planted tank. I have 2 Eheim 2217's on my 180g tank. Every three or four months I change one of them, alternating of course. But, if the maintainence of 4 filters doesn't bother you, go for it.


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## net (Mar 27, 2007)

Your crazy to go with 4 small filters. Go with two large filters. I have two 2260s on my 215gal. I will clean one filter every 6 months. Spend your time on waterchanges and pruning!


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