# CSM+B for 125g



## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm wondering how much CSM+B people are using on larger tanks? I have what I would consider high light levels (8x39w T5 HO, 4 running at a time with 4 hour overlap burst in middle, 10hour total photo period). I have two different CO2 tanks being fed into two Magnum 350 canister filters. KH is recorded at 3, pH is 6.1 and everything ran on a controller. Here's what I currently dose:
1tsp of KNO3 3x per week
1/8 tsp of KH2PO4 2x per week
1/4 tsp of K2SO4 only once per week after 50% water change
3/8 tsp of CSM+B 3x per week

I also add Ca because my well water is low on that. I'm generally happy with my results so far (no algea outbreaks to date), but I'm still missing something. Just don't get the type of results I think I could/should. The HC is growing, but very slowly. The Glosso is growing good, but then seems to "stall out" at times. I should have a much better carpet by now looking at other's pictures. I have good flow and good CO2 levels judging by CO2 indicator and how the plants move in the water at various locations. I would appreciate any tips from anyone on how to possibly get to the "next level" with my 125g!


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## Aquaticom (Nov 24, 2009)

It would be a good idea to try Seachem Flourish Comprehensive every other week - it has more minerals than CSM+B.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm trying to avoid liquid as it's expensive and although I could probably afford it, I have a hard time spending the money when I see other people claim to have successful experiences with CSM+B. I want to fully exhaust that avenue before dumping more money into this I think. I appreciate the advice and will likely try that if I can't acheive optimal results.

I recently increased my burst period from 2 to 4 hours to try and stop leggy growth, which worked. I also see that I listed my CSM+B as 3/8tsp 3x per week, but in reality it was only 1/4 3x per week up until a few days ago. I'm beginning to think I will go to 1/2tsp 3x week like the EI schedule recommends for a tank my size (yeah, I'm a guy and following directions isn't my #1 thing ) I did test the Iron levels last night after this post, and it recorded a pretty low shade (lower than I would have thought, and lower than past tests recently).


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

This should be considered "rookie advice",

but I would increase the dose of KH2PO4. I dosed 1/8 tsp x 3 per week in my 55 high tech (EI, not PPS). I would expect to need 3/8 x 3 per week in a 125 to get the needed phosphates (but that will also push up the potassium). 

Maybe try and extra 1/8 tsp of the phos this week (if you are aiming light to reduce the need for water changes? ), or maybe even 1/4 tsp 2 x per week and see if that helps.


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

Flourish is a much leaner fert system so you would have to use x2 to x3 the amount to equal CSM+B so it's not better and much more expensive in the long run.

~

Yes I'd go with what the EI regiment recommends the nice thing about it is it's an overdose so you know your adding more than enough ferts for your plants while the WC's correct it weekly.

You might consider adding GH Booster or Iron Chelate 10% to correct the Fe deficiency.

- Brad


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

davemonkey said:


> This should be considered "rookie advice",
> 
> but I would increase the dose of KH2PO4. I dosed 1/8 tsp x 3 per week in my 55 high tech (EI, not PPS). I would expect to need 3/8 x 3 per week in a 125 to get the needed phosphates (but that will also push up the potassium).
> 
> Maybe try and extra 1/8 tsp of the phos this week (if you are aiming light to reduce the need for water changes? ), or maybe even 1/4 tsp 2 x per week and see if that helps.


Thanks for the advice. I will also be doing that. 1/8 3x per week and see how it works. I still use test kits because I enjoy the science part of it and the tests were showing "good" amounts with what I was doing, but I'll up it a notch. I'm not worried about K (at least having too much, if anything I may be on the low side for K currently).


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

davemonkey said:


> This should be considered "rookie advice",
> 
> but I would increase the dose of KH2PO4. I dosed 1/8 tsp x 3 per week in my 55 high tech (EI, not PPS). I would expect to need 3/8 x 3 per week in a 125 to get the needed phosphates (but that will also push up the potassium).
> 
> Maybe try and extra 1/8 tsp of the phos this week (if you are aiming light to reduce the need for water changes? ), or maybe even 1/4 tsp 2 x per week and see if that helps.


Forgot to address the water changes.... I love this hobby and water changes are done every week, at least 50%. I have well water, so I'm somewhat lucky on that front, but one bad thing is my GH is 4 and most of it is Mg. I add Ca, but i'm not at a 3:1 ratio or anything like that.


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> Flourish is a much leaner fert system so you would have to use x2 to x3 the amount to equal CSM+B so it's not better and much more expensive in the long run.
> 
> ~
> 
> ...


I think I will go with what the EI recommends. I do the water changes and plan on continuing, so it would be silly not to at least see what the EI levels get me for performance! I'm not sold on the extra Iron Chelate 10% just yet. I've seen where some add this and some don't when using CSM+B. Do you add this above and beyond what you would normally add with CSM+B or do you scale back the CSM+B at all when adding the extra Iron?


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## bradac56 (May 9, 2007)

I go above and beyond, you can't overdose fish or plants with Fe but I do it with GH Booster since it also adds K2SO4, CaSO4, MgSO4, and MnSO4 besides the Fe(SO4) the stuff I'd recommend is greenleaf's version if your not comfortable mixing your own.

- Brad


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> I go above and beyond, you can't overdose fish or plants with Fe but I do it with GH Booster since it also adds K2SO4, CaSO4, MgSO4, and MnSO4 besides the Fe(SO4) the stuff I'd recommend is greenleaf's version if your not comfortable mixing your own.
> 
> - Brad


I already add or have the ability to add all of those except the Mn, but could buy it. The problem with the GH booster is I have too much Mg (likely 10-15ppm or more... GH is 4 out of tap with next to no Ca content) out of my tap water, and I'm not investing (at least not on the radar) in RO water source. I'm going to go with EI recommendation (and what everyone has confirmed in regards to that in this thread) as a starting point. That will be a noticeable bump in ferts from what I do know. I'll give that a few weeks, and then examine results. I may go with the extra Fe as well. This makes sense. I will look at the GH booster, but the Mg levels I have makes me reluctant to add much more. CSM+B obviously adds Mg, but it's next to nothing.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Bryeman said:


> Here's what I currently dose:
> 1tsp of KNO3 3x per week
> 1/8 tsp of KH2PO4 2x per week
> 1/4 tsp of K2SO4 only once per week after 50% water change
> 3/8 tsp of CSM+B 3x per week


Knocking off 15% capacity for hardscape/substrate (usually results in more accurate numbers) I'd say you're dosing around:

NO3: 23.8ppm
PO4: 2.4ppm
K+: 17.8ppm
Fe: .78ppm

Looks fine to me, though dosing 3.5x the amount of K2SO4 would land you in equal levels with your NO3, and 4x wouldn't hurt at all. Uptake of K+ tends to be higher than NO3 if I remember right. Even so, it's easier to diagnose NO3 deficiency than K+ both visually and through a test kit.

CSM+B dosing is in no shortage, and it's not about to do any harm either. Nice to see people pushing higher iron; I've done it for plant resilience and never looked back.

Don't be so quick to write off CO2 levels/distribution. A drop checker is nice, but try moving it into the lowest flow areas and see what happens.

Perhaps check the life of your bulb; spectrum loss may mean the plants aren't being driven as fast.

Here's my math if you want to check it. It's formatted so you can copy and paste the top line into an excel spreadsheet:

NO3:
=(3*5.2*(62.0050/101.10332))/(473.176473/100*85)*1000
=23.78722742

PO4:
=(5.6/8*2*(94.9714822/136.0856722))/(473.176473/100*85)*1000
=2.429219621

K+:
=((3*5.2*(39.09831/101.10332))+(5.6/8*2*(39.09831/136.0856722))+(6.4/4*(78.19662/174.25984)))/(473.176473/100*85)*1000
=17.7846393

Fe:
=((4.3/8*3*3)/100*6.53)/(473.176473/100*85)*1000
=0.785402159

-Philosophos


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Knocking off 15% capacity for hardscape/substrate (usually results in more accurate numbers) I'd say you're dosing around:
> 
> NO3: 23.8ppm
> PO4: 2.4ppm
> ...


Thanks for the tips Philosophos! I've moved the drop checker to about 30 different places in the last month or so, but will try it again just for giggles. I'm fairly sure it's really not that simply because you and several others have pounded on me about that in several other threads I've written!  None the less, I'll check again because it's an easy problem to fix if there indeed is an issue. It's usually a very light green to mostly yellow when I do check. The bulbs are all 1 week to 2 months old and are electronic ballast, so that's likely not it. I will adjust my K right away though. That makes sense for sure. I'll let everyone know if I find any lack of CO2 evidence in the next few days.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Sorry if it's overkill on the CO2. I've just found that even now, the majority of problems in my tanks stem from CO2, light and flow issues more than nutrients. It seems to be the same for others as well.

Maybe I missed something, but does anything actually appear off in your tank? Adjusting dosing when it's working just fine isn't necessary unless you're trying to achieve different growth patterns.

-Philosophos


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

Philosophos said:


> Sorry if it's overkill on the CO2. I've just found that even now, the majority of problems in my tanks stem from CO2, light and flow issues more than nutrients. It seems to be the same for others as well.
> 
> Maybe I missed something, but does anything actually appear off in your tank? Adjusting dosing when it's working just fine isn't necessary unless you're trying to achieve different growth patterns.
> 
> -Philosophos


The ground cover (HC is green, but not spreading much, Glosso is the same deal and has even melted off in a few spots) is not doing the best. Considering the lighting I have and the care I put into this (water changes, ferts, etc.), I should have pretty darn good ground cover I would think.

Anyhow, you appear to be right again. Right after the last post earlier today, I set up the CO2 indicator again. I put it about 1.5" off the bottom in the "Glosso zone" and it stayed blue/green. I was shocked. I thought i had my CO2 in line. Now I've adjusted my two Magnum 350 output heads so they are not throwing so much water at the surface of the tank. This should keep more CO2 from escaping and also make more flow towards the lower levels of the tank (which it did). I'm going to continue playing around with the outflow until everything checks out. I'm reluctant to lower pH monitor anymore though. I know I have yellow zones in the tank, and with KH 3 / pH 6.0-6.2 continuously, I think I'm in the range. What are your thoughts on that? I have two CO2 tanks that each feed into one of the Magnum 350's canister filters. This seems to be more of a flow problem if anything considering the very green to yellow I get in a lot of the tank. I have a lot of water movement as the plants visibly move.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Amazing how the CO2 keeps coming up hey? 

It's caused me a lot of frustration as well, but each step brings us closer to a good tank.

CO2 being lighter than water means that your levels will be a greater challenge to attain the lower down in the tank you get. I've found starting your CO2 out from a low point in the tank is great, so long as the flow isn't damaging to the plants. Aiming it over/downwards along the substrate in an even dispersion is the goal here, and any extra oscillation in the current that you can produce is a bonus.

If most of the column seems acceptable, then mess with your flow rather than your CO2 levels. Much like high, blaring more light down from the same source isn't going to help plants that are covered from a particular angle. I've found repeatedly that planted tanks are more about distribution than quantity, and that substituting saturation through quantity is either wasteful or harmful in many case. This applies to current, light, nutrients, foliage, etc. Sometimes we degrade these ideal parameters to create conditions that better match our sense of aesthetics, but the first step is to know how to optimize each one. 

Oh, look into wave makers. Big potential there for distribution.

-Philosophos


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## Bryeman (Aug 24, 2009)

The outflow of my filters is at the top of the tank, so that's the challenge. The Magnum 350's do have some flaps and the outflow head can turn. What I have done is make it so the flow direction heading up is closed (still a little flow heading across surface but a lot less) and made it so the vast majority is heading down. I position the filters close to the ends of the tank and make the flow so it takes advantage of the glass (flow hits glass at a downward angle thus the flow spreads down and out). From bubbles I see and the way the plants are moving, I should have good coverage, but we shall see. Not sure how else to do it with the filters I have.


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

Ya, that's the frustration of default filters. Powereheads, eductors, koralias, wave makers, loc-line and so on are all tools that can help with this. Needle wheel mods and small powerheads are best on a budget. 

I'm heading for a couple koralias, a couple needle wheeled power heads and a wave timer for my next tank. If you've got the money, the VorTech's look pretty neat. A couple people on TBR are playing with eductors.

-Philosophos


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

Hi bradac56,

Recently, I encountered a Potassium deficiency problem and I believe it's related to the GH booster that I order from www.aquariumfertilizer.com. Their formula is 3xK2SO4, 3xCaSO4 and 1xMgSO4. If you use APC calculator, you will find out that the resulting K ppm is almost 4 times of Ca. Assume your CA is 20ppm, then your K will be 67ppm. Not to mention if you add some other chemicals that contain K. This high K actually causes the unbalance situation in my tank. I still need more time to prove if this is the case!


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

I've never understood the high K+ myself, but I don't use GH booster. By the time you're through with CSM+B, KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4, all you really need to do is figure out your tap from testing or a water report and decide whether you need to toss in some Ca and Mg. Besides that, GH booster usually carries more of a markup than the individual chemicals it consists of. You're paying for the time it takes to mix it up, and you won't necessarily get even ratios in every scoop.

-Philosophos


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## inwu (May 14, 2009)

That's a good point! How can you be sure the ratio is the same for every scoop? Same thing for CSM+B. Just by visual inspection, you already can tell that some portion of the powder is darker. You guarantee will get more Fe from a darker scoop!


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## Philosophos (Mar 1, 2009)

CSM+B is weird stuff, and I try to keep it mixed up. Some of the grains almost look laminate; the outside is a different color than the interior. If you shake the bag, they'll bias to a certain alignment that appears to change color.

If you think premixed powder is bad, try weighing your idea of a consistent teaspoon several times. There's a reason I mix stock solutions.

-Philosophos


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