# Interesting question?



## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

What is the right “bubbles per minute” to set your pressurize CO2 system at?

That is the same thing as saying how much oil should I burn per day to keep my house warm?

Well I think you should set your thermostat at 68 deg and your house will be comfortable and you should set your CO2 controller at green to blue green and your CO2 will be great


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

What exactly is your question?

I run mine so the drop checker is mostly yellow. Bubbles per minute depends on a lot of things...tank size, filter type, pH, etc.


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> What exactly is your question?
> 
> I run mine so the drop checker is mostly yellow. Bubbles per minute depends on a lot of things...tank size, filter type, pH, etc.


Do you have any fish? And what kind? And is your drop checker calibrated?


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes, tank is full of fish. People need to realize that just because a drop checker, this doesn't mean the CO2 is always optimum. The drop checker is just an indicator and has a lot of error. CO2 can vary greatly in different areas of the tank and the drop checker can read different in any of those places. I have two in my tank. In one area the checker is almost always yellow and the other stays green. You should use it as an indicator and then fine tune from there. I find that I can run more CO2 than what just makes my checker green. I turn up my CO2 slowly, watch the fish and plants and settle on a good rate.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> I turn up my CO2 slowly, watch the fish and plants and settle on a good rate.


So, for you, what is it? What's a good rate for helgymatt's 75 gal. water wonderland?

Helgy, don't know that it matters, but it might be interesting to see how much variance there is from one helgymatter to another.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Manwithnofish said:


> So, for you, what is it? What's a good rate for helgymatt's 75 gal. water wonderland?
> 
> Helgy, don't know that it matters, but it might be interesting to see how much variance there is from one helgymatter to another.


I cant count that fast, but it must be ~5 bubbles per second. My 29 gallon runs about 2 bubbles per second.


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> I cant count that fast, but it must be ~5 bubbles per second. My 29 gallon runs about 2 bubbles per second.


Wow...well we can throw that "rule of thumb", "bubbles per second" out the window. Seems to be very dependent on size. Hum...is it true? Size matters?


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes, size does matter! Wouldn't it make sense that a larger volume of water would require more CO2 than a smaller volume of water to reach the same concentration??? 

By the way, what "rule of thumb" are you referring to? That a green drop checker means everything is perfect?


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

ray-the-pilot said:


> Well I think you should set your thermostat at 68 deg and your house will be comfortable and you should set your CO2 controller at green to blue green and your CO2 will be great


I keep my house at 55 and wear a sweater 'cause I can't afford heat. I raise my bps slowly until the plants stop showing CO2 deficiencies and the algae starts dying.


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## Indignation (Mar 9, 2008)

ray-the-pilot said:


> What is the right "bubbles per minute" to set your pressurize CO2 system at?
> 
> That is the same thing as saying how much oil should I burn per day to keep my house warm?
> 
> Well I think you should set your thermostat at 68 deg and your house will be comfortable and you should set your CO2 controller at green to blue green and your CO2 will be great


Great for you - perhaps. Great for others - How exactly are you leaping to that conclusion?

My house is very comfortable at 62. (I have a high metabolism.) and my tanks do wonderfully at yellow-green. (My plants have...a... high... metabolism? That can't possibly be right! ALL plants grow the EXACT same rate, and have the same uptake demands, no matter what conditions are!) :crazy:


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Indignation said:


> Great for you - perhaps. Great for others - How exactly are you leaping to that conclusion?
> 
> My house is very comfortable at 62. (I have a high metabolism.) and my tanks do wonderfully at yellow-green. (My plants have...a... high... metabolism? That can't possibly be right! ALL plants grow the EXACT same rate, and have the same uptake demands, no matter what conditions are!) :crazy:


I never said that my rate was right for everybody. I said it was right for me. How do you know that your rate is right for your fish and plants? Especially how do you know that it is right for your fish? Are they breeding?


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## ray-the-pilot (May 14, 2008)

Minsc said:


> I keep my house at 55 and wear a sweater 'cause I can't afford heat. I raise my bps slowly until the plants stop showing CO2 deficiencies and the algae starts dying.


How do you know your plants have CO2 deficiency?


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

You know when the rate of CO2 is right when the plants are growing well and when the plants are not negatively affected. Fish show CO2 stress easily by gasping at the surface. 

The idea is to have as much CO2 in the water, without harming the fish.

Plants won't show a CO2 deficiency, they will just grow much slower. CO2 is often the most limiting nutrient (carbon) in a closed aquarium system and when it is supplied, as we all know, we se an increase in growth rate.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

ray-the-pilot said:


> How do you know your plants have CO2 deficiency?


It varies from species to species. Rotalas will often become stunted and not display good coloration.
Toninas develop necrotic tissue and melt, especially the expensive ones

From what I have seen adding CO2 to the water is only half the story though. Without a decent rate of turnover, and a well layed out flow pattern, it is possible to have enough CO2 in the water column to kill fish, and still have carbon starved plants.


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## Minsc (May 7, 2006)

On the topic of pH controllers: 

The main benefit of a pH controller that I can see is that it will change the amount of CO2 added to the tank based on demand. After a major pruning, there should be less demand, and the controller will add a smaller amount of CO2. When the plants grow in, the controller can add more CO2 to the tank in order to maintain a constant pH.

Whereas, those of us who count bubbles, if we don't manually change the bubble count according to plant mass, it is very likely there is a gradual shift downwards in the available CO2 as the plants grow in, and a spike after a large pruning. Does this cause any problems? It is quite possible.

So, using a pH controller certainly has benefits, so why not use one?
With a pH controller, the bubble rate is higher than if CO2 were run constantly. If there is ever a malfunction of the controller or the probe, the solenoid sticks open, or if the alkalinity of the tank goes up, the system may very well blast the tank with CO2 and kill all the fish. That shouldn't happen on a manual system with a good needle valve.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

Minsc said:


> On the topic of pH controllers:
> 
> The main benefit of a pH controller that I can see is that it will change the amount of CO2 added to the tank based on demand. After a major pruning, there should be less demand, and the controller will add a smaller amount of CO2. When the plants grow in, the controller can add more CO2 to the tank in order to maintain a constant pH.
> 
> ...


I think many don't use controllers because they are not necessary and its just another cost. I don't find much change in CO2 concentration after a pruning, at least a noticable one. I find the manual way to work fine and very simple. Once I set the bubble count, i will normally just leave it until the tank is empty.


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## SpeedEuphoria (Jul 9, 2008)

Ray for some reason I think you feel the need to try and promote PH controllers with all your threads, while the wording may vary. Not so sure what it's all about? To me it seems that its less about what is best for aquariums and more about how you think your way is better.

There are many ways to skin a cat so to speak, people like different brands of equipment for various reasons, same with religious beliefs and many other things. Trying sway people is futile IMO especially w/o any proof.

If you really want to sway people to using PH controllers, then setup 2 identical tanks and post the results using different methods.

Many people who used PH controllers for years are the ones now who say they are not needed.

To answer the question, "What is the right “bubbles per minute” to set your pressurize CO2 system at?"

Well pretty much everyone know that's a variable, meaning it varies from tank to tank depending on many things. So you start slow and watch things, then raise a little at a time and continue watching. Then you get "your" answer for your setup. 

I do have a question for you Ray, do you have the CO2 on a timer so it turns off at night?


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## Indignation (Mar 9, 2008)

SpeedEuphoria said:


> If you really want to sway people to using PH controllers, then setup 2 identical tanks and post the results using different methods.


 That sounds suspiciously like science. :twitch:
Ray-


> you should set your CO2 controller at green to blue green and your CO2 will be great


 Sure sounds like you were saying it was right for everyone. If not, I would imagine it would read more like


> _I_ set my CO2 controller at green to blue green and _my_ CO2 is great


 Call me crazy.

I have several tanks, all with happy fish and plants, all with breeding inhabitants. My 5.5 gallon shrimp tank is overflowing with RCS babies and my amanos regularly breed. (not successfully, as its freshwater.) In my larger tanks, I have had CPD's and Boraras Brigittae successfully breed.

I don't know if you think we're routinely scooping dead fish out of our poisonous CO2-laden death-traps, but i can assure you that's not the case, at least at my house. My fish are happy, my plants literally grow out of the tanks by the handfuls, I keep algae at bay. What else would I want?


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## Manwithnofish (Mar 12, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> Yes, size does matter! Wouldn't it make sense that a larger volume of water would require more CO2 than a smaller volume of water to reach the same concentration???
> 
> By the way, what "rule of thumb" are you referring to? That a green drop checker means everything is perfect?


I thought there was a "rule of thumb" on this. It seems everyone told me to set my CO2 between 2-3 bubbles per second. I guess I just never thought about it. So, when it's clear that size matters, why do folks tell me how many bps I should use. I think I first saw this on Rex's site...but maybe not.

Footnote: I only ran my CO2 for three weeks and shut it all down....so I never really ran it long enough to get much experience with it.


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## helgymatt (Sep 12, 2007)

They were maybe making a recommendation based on you're tank size. All tanks will require different amounts, bubbles per second, or whatever you want to call it.


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## Sunstar (Sep 17, 2008)

I wish my fish would stop breeding.... I am about to be swampped...


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## jmhart (Nov 13, 2007)

ray-the-pilot said:


> What is the right "bubbles per minute" to set your pressurize CO2 system at?
> 
> That is the same thing as saying how much oil should I burn per day to keep my house warm?
> 
> Well I think you should set your thermostat at 68 deg and your house will be comfortable and you should set your CO2 controller at green to blue green and your CO2 will be great


Er, I think I missed the "interesting question" part. Seems more a like a retorical question. I agree, bubble rate is only a crude starting point. A properly calibrated drop checker is certainly the way to go. But this is nowhere near a profound statement only recently discovered.

However, I have to ask you, how have you determined what pH your controller is shooting for?



Indignation said:


> I don't know if you think we're routinely scooping dead fish out of our poisonous CO2-laden death-traps...


=D>


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## Supercoley1 (May 28, 2007)

noone can suggest a bps that should be used for anything other than a starting point!!!

Different bubble counters produce different size bubbles therefore my 1bps may be your 5bps.

Then take into account plantmass, amount of light, diffusion efficiency, circulation and 1 person may need to inject more CO2 than another to reach the same level within the same size tank.

My 1 bps may be in a setup with all the above ticked whereas someone else may have a setup that is not as efficient and needs 3x the amount of CO2 to reach the same level.

If their bubble counter is at the extreme of my suggestion then that would mean if I was using 1bps to get to 30ppm then they would be at 15bps to reach 30ppm!!!!

bps is for the user to gauge their own system and cannot be used as an ideal for any other setup!!!

A couple of DCs are what you need to gauge your in tank ppm and that will let you know if you are in the right range or not 

As to the question '_How do you know your plants have a CO2 defficiency?_'

BBA will be one of the first algaes to take a hold if CO2 is poor. Very good indicator of CO2 problems just as GSA will indicate P defficiencies and BGA will indicate low N (the latter assumes that the tank is well maintained with regular filter maintenance and substrate cleaning with good circulation)

Remember defficiencies do not just mean that you haven't added enough to the tank. You may be adding more than enough of everything but the circulation/flow is not distributing it well.

Therefore the first thing to sort out within a tank is to get the flow sorted out. then move onto dosing which is easy as you know what you are adding. Then you come down to the CO2 issue which is what the majority of algae problems are caused by.

AC


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