# Shrimp Issues in New Tank



## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

Hi Everyone,

About a month ago, I started a new 29 gal tank with mineralized soil (via these instructions--topsoil, dolomite, muriate of potash, and red pottery clay). The plants are doing well, including a dense cover of floaters. It's currently home to one guppy (inherited and not a permanent resident) and a colony of pond snails.

Water parameters have always registered 0 Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. pH and KH were initially very low but have rebounded to about 7.6 after adding baking soda. GH was initially very high (12) but has fallen to about 4 after a couple 50% water changes (my NYC tap water measures about 3). I intend to keep it around 7 GH.

The problem is, every Amano shrimp I put into the mineralized soil tank dies, including those I transfer from my other tank (which didn't use mineralized soil), where they're thriving. I transferred a couple when the new tank had a GH of 12 and they died (turning red) within 30 minutes (I was overconfident and didn't acclimate them.) 1 week later, I did a 50% water change and added one more--drip acclimating it this time--and it very nearly died before I put it back. 1 week later, I did another 50% water change and added an Amano straight from my LFS and it died, though it lived longer. (I also added a nerite snail that hasn't moved in 24 hours; though I know this is common, I wouldn't be surprised if it's dead too.)

I'm stumped and would love your advice. Why would the guppy and pond snails survive, while drip acclimated Amanos won't last a night? (Actually, the guppy was really unhappy and flipped over shortly after being added, but the water changes helped enormously.) And why would the shrimp in my other tank, which uses the same tap water, thrive? (I haven't done a water change there for about 1 month.) What can I do/ tests can I perform to sort this out?

Thanks!


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

There might be some chemical we're not aware of on the tank.


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## hoppycalif (Apr 7, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> There might be some chemical we're not aware of on the tank.


Chlorine or Chloramine, for example. You should use a chlorine remover/neutralizer every time you replace about a quarter of the water. SeaChem Prime is one such substance.


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

I sympathize with the OP, more than I would like. On my first Walstad tank attempt, I too followed Aaron's process and ingredients in that exact thread and, like the OP, I'm on NYC water (though I was and am using Diana's water hardening recipe) -- that tank was a toxic disaster, even though the usual water parameters were all good: shrimp (three batches) and even almost all of a dozen MTS snails died in that tank and plant growth was anemic at best. Ultimately, I broke it down and restarted with low-organic topsoil, which has worked for fish, snails, and plants. But I haven't had the courage to try shrimp again as it was just too depressing pulling dead bodies out day after day.


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

hoppycalif said:


> Chlorine or Chloramine, for example. You should use a chlorine remover/neutralizer every time you replace about a quarter of the water. SeaChem Prime is one such substance.


Thanks for your response, hoppycalif. I dose all tap water with Prime before adding to the tank, so I don't think it's a chlorine/chloramine issue...


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## jatcar95 (Oct 30, 2019)

Could there somehow be more copper in this tank than the other? Or something else that affects invertebrates but not fish? (pond snails don't count since they're immortal)


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

mistergreen said:


> There might be some chemical we're not aware of on the tank.


Thanks, mistergreen. This is my guess too, but which chemical / how do I resolve it? Could be anything--pesticides that came with the plants, a heavy metal in my tap water, etc. But it has to be something that shrimp (and the nerite, which still isn't moving) are uniquely affected by, such as copper, since the guppy has been fine for weeks. But then why would my other tank, which uses the same tap water treated in the same way (with Prime), not experience these issues? (Though as I said, I haven't changed the other tank's water in a month, but how much could my building's tap water change?)

Hopefully repeated water changes will dilute it? I'm a little paranoid it's something in the added clay, potash, or dolomite, but the first is just red pottery clay and the other two are supposedly pure K and Ca, Mg, CaC03, MgC03, respectively.

I know Diana has mentioned that plants can hold toxic metals and chemicals...Perhaps time will help too?


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

shudaizi said:


> I sympathize with the OP, more than I would like. On my first Walstad tank attempt, I too followed Aaron's process and ingredients in that exact thread and, like the OP, I'm on NYC water (though I was and am using Diana's water hardening recipe) -- that tank was a toxic disaster, even though the usual water parameters were all good: shrimp (three batches) and even almost all of a dozen MTS snails died in that tank and plant growth was anemic at best. Ultimately, I broke it down and restarted with low-organic topsoil, which has worked for fish, snails, and plants. But I haven't had the courage to try shrimp again as it was just too depressing pulling dead bodies out day after day.


Oh wow...this summarizes my primary paranoia, that it's something in those three ingredients I added--clay, potash, or dolomite...Did you test for copper or explore any other solutions before tearing it down?

Did you have fish in that tank? If so, how did they do?


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

jatcar95 said:


> Could there somehow be more copper in this tank than the other? Or something else that affects invertebrates but not fish? (pond snails don't count since they're immortal)


Maybe! I'll purchase a copper test to eliminate it the list. Just hate spending money on something I'll probably only use once. C'est la vie.


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

vloeien said:


> Oh wow...this summarizes my primary paranoia, that it's something in those three ingredients I added--clay, potash, or dolomite...Did you test for copper or explore any other solutions before tearing it down?
> 
> Did you have fish in that tank? If so, how did they do?


I added those same three ingredients. I didn't test for copper, mainly because I couldn't see how it would have entered the tank given the things I put in it (and the water couldn't be the source given how many people have tanks on NYC water). I did not put any fish in it prior to starting over.

In the end, I thought my problems were _possibly_ due to a chemical "wetting agent" that was in the potting soil that I mineralized -- the bag was slightly torn and that ingredient was missing on the label. But that was only because I couldn't find any other likely cause. The saga is detailed here: https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/144739-advice-possibly-toxic-tank-2.html

Your story makes me wonder whether there is some interaction between organic-leaning soil and those three ingredients (clay, potash, and dolomite) that is not good. But this is far beyond my pay grade.


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

shudaizi said:


> I added those same three ingredients. I didn't test for copper, mainly because I couldn't see how it would have entered the tank given the things I put in it (and the water couldn't be the source given how many people have tanks on NYC water). I did not put any fish in it prior to starting over.
> 
> In the end, I thought my problems were _possibly_ due to a chemical "wetting agent" that was in the potting soil that I mineralized -- the bag was slightly torn and that ingredient was missing on the label. But that was only because I couldn't find any other likely cause. The saga is detailed here: https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/144739-advice-possibly-toxic-tank-2.html
> 
> Your story makes me wonder whether there is some interaction between organic-leaning soil and those three ingredients (clay, potash, and dolomite) that is not good. But this is far beyond my pay grade.


Just read through. Very interesting.

I used topsoil, which was rinsed and dried several times, so shouldn't have experienced any issues with the mysterious wetting agent.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Have you written to Aaron Talbot about your shrimp problems? 

Aaron's setup method is not what I use, so it's hard for me to comment on something I've never tried. When you start mixing soils, you can get into all kinds of problems. 

Many clays contain aluminum. The clay may be fine by itself, but when you mix it with an organic soil, the organic matter can solubilize the aluminum oxides and release toxic aluminum into the water. Invertebrates are particularly sensitive to heavy metals, which includes aluminum.

I also don't like the idea of adding solid potash to the soil. (I only add KCl to the water.) 

SeaChem's Prime should neutralize any copper in your tapwater, so I don't think the problem is from copper in the tapwater. It does sound like it's something being released from the soil substrate. 

Some wetting agents (e.g., polyacrylamides) used in non-organic soils are not too good, but I think they would be slowly harmful. In contrast, heavy metals will kill shrimp in minutes and hours.


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> Have you written to Aaron Talbot about your shrimp problems?
> 
> Aaron's setup method is not what I use, so it's hard for me to comment on something I've never tried. When you start mixing soils, you can get into all kinds of problems.
> 
> ...


Many, many thanks, Diana. This is exactly what I was concerned about. I cannot imagine a likelier explanation for why my mineralized tank doesn't sustain invertebrates (indeed, it seems toxic to them), while 15 feet away they flourish in my other dirted tank. I had no idea clay contained aluminum, or that it could become toxic. I've now heard from two others who've used this mineralization "recipe" that it was toxic to their invertebrates too.

I should know better by now than to supplement your published recommendations. Due to the popularity of the post and that it was published on APC, I decided to give it a go. Alas, in retrospect, it seems wiser not to mix soils and retain the ability to fine tune water parameters ad hoc according to the methods you described in your book.

I've written to Aaron Talbot and summarized the above.

Assuming it is aluminum toxicity, will it always be present in the tank?

As hoppycalif recommended in another thread, maybe I'll consider this learning opportunity an excuse to recreate another tank, which is half the fun anyway.


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

Assuming it is worth replacing the soil substrate, a couple follow-up q's to make sure the next tank is a success:

-- Since plants take up and store heavy metals, is there any risk recycling / replanting them?
-- Is there any risk reusing other (rinsed) elements in the tank--cap, mechanical filter, etc.?
-- I probably don't have enough topsoil left for a new tank; is it OK to mix the topsoil I do have with a bag of organic potting soil? (Both would be rinsed and dried several times.) Or is it better to just use one or the other?
-- With soft tapwater, do you still recommend mixing dolomite / crushed coral with the soil substrate?
-- Any other suggestions to keep in mind as I replace the soil substrate?

Thanks!


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## maico996 (Nov 6, 2016)

vloeien said:


> Assuming it is worth replacing the soil substrate, a couple follow-up q's to make sure the next tank is a success:
> 
> -- Since plants take up and store heavy metals, is there any risk recycling / replanting them?
> -- Is there any risk reusing other (rinsed) elements in the tank--cap, mechanical filter, etc.?
> ...


It might be best to stick with one soil so you know exactly what you're getting. This is the organic soil I used in my tank and I did not mineralize it because I didn't have the time or space:

Miracle-Gro Raised Bed Soil. According to the label it's made up of peat, processed forest products and/or compost, poultry litter, alfalfa meal, bone meal, kelp meal and earthworm castings. Total nitrogen is 0.09%
• 0.008% ammoniacal nitrogen
• 0.028% other water soluble nitrogen
• 0.054% water insoluble nitrogen (from poultry litter, alfalfa meal and kelp meal)
Available phosphate is 0.08%
Soluble potash is 0.09%
Calcium is 0.02%.

I mixed with the soil some non-clumping, plain cat litter (no additives, no odor eliminators) and added a very thin layer of crushed oyster shell between the soil and gravel cap. I have really soft water so the oyster shell has helped to increase hardness. I poke the substrate occasionally to oxygenate the soil. Per Diana's recommendations I've also added some Potassium Chloride because some of the leaves of my plants were developing holes in them. My tank is stocked with tetras, Amano Shrimp and about 18,000,000 snails and all are doing fine. I've had only minor issues so far which seem to be normal for a new Walstad tank.

Hope that helps!


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

from vloeien: A couple follow-up q's to make sure the next tank is a success:

-- _Since plants take up and store heavy metals, is there any risk recycling / replanting them?
_
They won't store enough to make a difference. You'll be doing water changes to remove whatever little bit they release into the water.

-- _Is there any risk reusing other (rinsed) elements in the tank--cap, mechanical filter, etc.?_

I think the soil is the generator of the problem, not the gravel cap or filter.

-- _I probably don't have enough topsoil left for a new tank; is it OK to mix the topsoil I do have with a bag of organic potting soil? (Both would be rinsed and dried several times.) Or is it better to just use one or the other?_

Do not mix soils. I would use a bag of organic potting soil. Wet it and plant. Forget about mineralizing it separately. Let it mineralize in the tank. By the time the soil starts its upheaval/chaos in 2 weeks, hopefully your plants will have taken off, enough to take up the released nutrients. If there are problems, you can always do more water changes or poke the substrate.

-- _With soft tapwater, do you still recommend mixing dolomite / crushed coral with the soil substrate?_

You could add a _little_ crushed coral to the substrate. I wouldn't add potassium to substrate. You can always add "Wonder Shells" or something else later on. Instead of the copper test kit, I would get an API water hardness kit to monitor GH.

-- _Any other suggestions to keep in mind as I replace the soil substrate?_

Yes. Try to keep things simple. Reread my book chapter on substrates.


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

maico996 said:


> It might be best to stick with one soil so you know exactly what you're getting. This is the organic soil I used in my tank and I did not mineralize it because I didn't have the time or space:
> 
> Miracle-Gro Raised Bed Soil. According to the label it's made up of peat, processed forest products and/or compost, poultry litter, alfalfa meal, bone meal, kelp meal and earthworm castings. Total nitrogen is 0.09%
> • 0.008% ammoniacal nitrogen
> ...


Thank you! I'll keep with crushed oyster shell


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## vloeien (Nov 16, 2020)

dwalstad said:


> from vloeien: A couple follow-up q's to make sure the next tank is a success:
> 
> -- _Since plants take up and store heavy metals, is there any risk recycling / replanting them?
> _
> ...


Thank you so much, Diana. I test for GH and everything else everything regularly, and your water hardening (plus increasing KH) techniques have worked brilliantly in my other tank.


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## shudaizi (Jun 9, 2020)

I don't know where you are in NYC, but I have extra non-organic topsoil (already pre-sifted) that has worked well for me in two small tanks (7.5g and 3.5g) and I'd be happy to give you. I am outside the city -- not far from a Metro-North station on the Harlem line -- just a few stops north of the Bronx. Also have some black diamond blasting sand for a cap if you want some of that too. (And some leftover driftwood and dragon rock ...) No pressure, but if you're interested, I'm happy to meet you at the train station to do a hand off. Or if you have a car, you could stop by here. Just PM me if you're interested and we can work out the details.


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