# Blackened roots



## DefChilde (May 15, 2006)

I have a quick question. My vals seems to be doing well, even sending out new runners and new leaves. One thing I am noticing is that some have come out of the substrate, and they have BLACKENED roots. The tank is 125g and have been running for over a year.

Is this an issue? Is this a symptom of the build-up of hydrogen sulphide in my tank? Is my substrate going anaerobic?

Thanks.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

It's possible that your tank may have pockets of H2S. You could go in with your hand and poke the substrate to release the gas. Or, you could also replant the vals which would disturb the substrate and let out any h2s.....you should perform some sort of turnover every couple of months by replanting a group or two of plants to prevent H2S build-up. You don't have to replant everything at once, but I have found it to be very helpful.


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## mistergreen (Mar 3, 2007)

a bamboo skewer is the perfect H2S poker! Poke all around the substrate.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Yeah...that's a great idea! Or use the handle-end of a wooden spoon.......you get the idea.

Do you smell any "rotten egg" smell after these bubbles rise to the surface? If you do, then it is H2S.

If you are running a ton of CO2 with bright lights, then it could be oxygen bubbles created by the plants......do a sniff test!


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## DefChilde (May 15, 2006)

I tried the bamboo skewer, NO bubbles and no smell, but still the black roots. I have not replanted anything in over 9 months.

Petty much all I do is replace evaporated water, feed fish and enjoy. Once in a while, I trim plants, but not much more than that. No CO2, no ferts, 1.92wpg. Everything else seems to growing well.

Recently the Vallisneria Americana var. "Rubra" have not been showing the growth that it had when the tank first settled in. Now they are showing black roots.

Could there be something else causing it?


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Hmmm...........what's your water temperature? Do you fertilize at all......could be some sort of iron problem. I'll consult my library, and get back to you.....


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

Yeah, you may be experiencing lack of iron and potassium since you said you don't fertilize and aren't seeing bubbles of H2S. Also, just because you don't see or smell anything doesn't mean that you don't have anaerobic conditions in your tank.

If I were you, I would certainly get some tablet fertilizer for the substrate (aquariumplants.com sells some pretty good stuff), and dose with a fertilizer with iron and potassium at least once a week. You won't have to do it any more than twice per week, as your tank is fairly low light.

Otherwise, you will have to change the substrate completely. Your vals have used up all of the nutrients in the soil, and they are running out of fuel (which probably the reason why they are turning black and coming out of the substrate).


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DefChilde said:


> I have a quick question. My vals seems to be doing well, even sending out new runners and new leaves. One thing I am noticing is that some have come out of the substrate, and they have BLACKENED roots. The tank is 125g and have been running for over a year.
> 
> Is this an issue? Is this a symptom of the build-up of hydrogen sulphide in my tank? Is my substrate going anaerobic?
> 
> Thanks.


I agree that the problem is hydrogen sulfide. It's poisoning the roots. Here's how you described your substrate:

"The substrate is 3" of silica sand over Shultz soil. I used fiberglass storm-door meshing as a divider between the sand and the soil."

A 3 inch layer of sand sand layer is too impermeable. This "tight and deep" sand layer has sealed the soil layer preventing oxygenated water from moving into the soil layer and keeping the soil safely aerobic.

I have always recommended a one inch gravel layer as a "cover" for the soil layer. Even the best soil in the world may not work if you "smother" it with 3 inches of sand.

DefChilde: I would remove two (or more) inches of the sand. Your tank is on its way to a "meltdown". Plants will start dying and algae will take over. You may even lose some fish. This problem will only get worse as rooted plants totally lose their ability to oxygenate this poisonous substrate.

Soil getting into the water column and causing turbidity can be taken care of by a good mechanical filter (e.g., Quick Filter) and waiting until the soil "matures" (see my book p.134-135). There's no need for sealing off the soil like this-- unless the soil is unsuitable to begin with (too negatively charged, again see my book p. 134-135). I've used soil in my tank without even a gravel layer.

Good luck.


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## DefChilde (May 15, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> I agree that the problem is hydrogen sulfide. It's poisoning the roots. Here's how you described your substrate:
> 
> "The substrate is 3" of silica sand over Shultz soil. I used fiberglass storm-door meshing as a divider between the sand and the soil."
> 
> ...


Thank you, Diane, for responding to my question. I did realize that the substrate need to be changed around July 2006. It is now similar to your advice, and it is 1" of gravel and not sand. Since then the tank has done beautifully, except for a small amount of spot algae on the glass.



dwalstad said:


> Soil getting into the water column and causing turbidity can be taken care of by a good mechanical filter (e.g., Quick Filter) and waiting until the soil "matures" (see my book p.134-135). There's no need for sealing off the soil like this-- unless the soil is unsuitable to begin with (too negatively charged, again see my book p. 134-135). I've used soil in my tank without even a gravel layer.
> 
> Good luck.


I did get to read your book about 2½ years ago when I borrowed it from someone I met at a local fish club. At the time, I was sure that if I went planted, it would be the CO2 addicted version. Since then, I have been doing this low-tech version, and I am enjoying it. I think I am going to have to add it to my library.

All my other plants are doing well, my anubiases, cryptocorynes and other plants are still doing well. It is only the Vals that seem to be struggling. They are all concentrated in one section of the tank. They have sent out runners that have move outside this section and seem to do OK. Could the issue be isolated to only one part of the substrate?


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DefChilde said:


> All my other plants are doing well, my anubiases, cryptocorynes and other plants are still doing well. It is only the Vals that seem to be struggling. They are all concentrated in one section of the tank. They have sent out runners that have move outside this section and seem to do OK. Could the issue be isolated to only one part of the substrate?


Yes. Substrates have microenvironments. Also, Val could be more sensitive than the other plant species to something in its root area. Hardwater plants, including Val, are more sensitive than softwater plants like Cryptocoryne to metal toxicity (my book, page 115). It could be excessive iron generated in this one area. Hard to say.

The main thing, though, is than you have a substrate toxicity problem not a nutrient deficiency problem.

Sounds like you've got a good understanding of your tank.


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## DefChilde (May 15, 2006)

dwalstad said:


> Yes. Substrates have microenvironments. Also, Val could be more sensitive than the other plant species to something in its root area. Hardwater plants, including Val, are more sensitive than softwater plants like Cryptocoryne to metal toxicity (my book, page 115). It could be excessive iron generated in this one area. Hard to say.
> 
> The main thing, though, is than you have a substrate toxicity problem not a nutrient deficiency problem.
> 
> Sounds like you've got a good understanding of your tank.


Would I need to breakdown the tank to correct this problem?

Thanks.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

DefChilde said:


> Would I need to breakdown the tank to correct this problem?
> 
> Thanks.


I would never tear down a tank to accomodate a single plant species. Honestly, I can't get Val to last long in any of my tanks, although I have tried to grow the it several times.

I would go with the plants you have and then try out other species in this part of the tank. Cryptocoryne balansae and Sagitarria graminae are beautiful grass-like plant that might thrive where the Vals are dying out.

A tank's environment develops over time and will continue to develop. A tank is not like a painting that you set up and that's it. I would encourage the plant species that do well, try out new ones, and forget about the ones that "don't fit in".


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## DefChilde (May 15, 2006)

I think this is the third time that I have had vals melt on me. They thrive for a while, and then just melt. However, this was the first time I noticed black roots.

I will hunt around for the suggested plants, however, here in Montreal, fish tanks are more the norm, and so stores cater more for fishes than for plants. Planted tanks are only now being coming popular. Most stores only have an extremely small selection of plants (some are even non-aquatics), and usually they are without labels. 

Do we have a list somewhere of plants that do better in "el Natural" tanks?

Regards,

Defchilde.


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## DonaldmBoyer (Aug 18, 2005)

I don't know about a list of el Natural plants. But I do know that you can get some great stuff at Aquabid in Canada or from Aquariumplants.com because they opened up a warehouse in Canada.

I don't think that you will have too much of a problem getting something to take the place of your vals. As long as it isn't red and need CO2 to survive, you could probably plant just about anything in there. You could try wisteria, anachris, hygrophilia, stuff like that.


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## Valley (Feb 28, 2007)

Quick question. How deeply are your Vals planted? I had mine so that the leaves were just barely touching the substrate and they were melting. I did some research (actually more like an hour and a half) and found that if the leaves are touching substrate they are likely to melt. I pulled mine up some so that no leaves were touching and they stopped melting and started reproducing. Nothing else changed just the depth. Then again if yours aren't planted too deep it may just be that they won't do well there. That seems to be pretty common. Good luck with them. HTH


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## DefChilde (May 15, 2006)

donaldmboyer said:


> I don't know about a list of el Natural plants. But I do know that you can get some great stuff at Aquabid in Canada or from Aquariumplants.com because they opened up a warehouse in Canada.
> 
> I don't think that you will have too much of a problem getting something to take the place of your vals. As long as it isn't red and need CO2 to survive, you could probably plant just about anything in there. You could try wisteria, anachris, hygrophilia, stuff like that.


I have not tried either Aquabid or Aquariumplants.com, probably due to mistrust of shopping on the web. Not to say that either one of the mentioned sites are not great. I am going to hunt around for something to replace the vals. I already have hygrophilia in another area in the tank. If I can I would like to buy locally, support those who are near me.



Valley said:


> Quick question. How deeply are your Vals planted? I had mine so that the leaves were just barely touching the substrate and they were melting. I did some research (actually more like an hour and a half) and found that if the leaves are touching substrate they are likely to melt. I pulled mine up some so that no leaves were touching and they stopped melting and started reproducing. Nothing else changed just the depth. Then again if yours aren't planted too deep it may just be that they won't do well there. That seems to be pretty common. Good luck with them. HTH


Actually, I just thought about what occurred when the issue started. The vals were doing well for six to seven months. You could just see the start of the roots on top the substrate. Then I thought that they were getting too long, overshadowing other plants in the tank. So I decided to trim the tops, I cut them at a sharp angle near the water-line. A few days later, the leaves started to melt, then the black roots issue appeared and the vals started coming up out of the soil.

All the other plants that I have seem to do well, only the vals have given me problems. And until recently, I thought that I had found a solution.


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## 01krisp10 (Feb 18, 2007)

Walstad had mentioned in her book about the problems with cutting surfaced or emergent plants below the waterline. I think it was basically if you do it the plants tend to die back quickly.


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