# [Wet Thumb Forum]-Very hard water, what to do?



## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

I recently started a planted tank and at the same time bought a test kit. It now turns out that my water is extremely hard and my pH is kinda high too.

Can anything be done about the hardness? As I understand it, most fish do not like water this hard.

GH = 19
KH = 17
Nitrite = 0 mg/l
pH = 7,5

Unfortunately, I bought 11 red Neon before testing the water(Yes pretty irresponsible, I know). Only 6 remain ( survival of the fittest?) My 2 Ancistrus is having a gay time.

Is the water totally unsuited for living organisms or are there any fish that would thrive in it?

I was thinking about getting some shrimp and SAE's to get rid of some of the algae I have, but im unsure if they can survive my water.

Thanks in advance, any advice welcome.


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## smr (Mar 17, 2006)

PapaLoc, the only way you can take the hardness down is through Reverse Osmosis filteration. The other method would be to filter your water through peat moss. I know that this second method will lower your pH, but have very little effect on the hardness. There are also some water softners available in the market. If you are in the UK I think you have products by Waterlife.

However if you do plan to use these water softners my advice would be to put the softners in small bucket of water and then to drip it into the aquarium very slowly, like through a drip system used at hospitals, over a period of some hours. You should not change the water chemistry too rapidly as it could kill your fish.

As for the fishes that love hard water, all the african chichilds will be fine. Most amazonian speicies will thrive in soft acidic water.

ONe thing I do when I get new fish is to get extra water from the fish tank that they were in at the store. Then I put my new fish in a bucket with the water that they are used to and over a few days I keep adding water from the aquarium that they will be going to this way I feel that I quarantine the fish as well as acclamitize them.

Regards and good luck.


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Well that is discouraging advice, since there is no way I can afford a RO device in the near future. And im not too keen on using chemicals in my tank.

African chiclids tend to wreac havoc on plants don't they? Making them a poor choice for my aquarium, unless there are more benign(towards plants) species out there.

I might try to filtrate through some peat moss just to giuve it a shot.

Thanks for the advice smr.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi PapaLoc,

I have some good news for you. My water is actually *worse* than yours. It has a kH of 18 and a pH out of the tap of about 8.4. I have had wonderful success with both plants and non-african cichlid fish for many years. Don't fight your water, make it work for you. 

While this might not be the ideal water for any fish but african cichlids, most hardy fish can be acclaimated to it. The local fish stores normally don't use RO water because of the cost, so any fish you get from there which have been there for a few weeks and are doing well will do ok in your tank. Neons are sensitive fish and take a long time to adjust. It doesn't surprise me that you lost a few (very normal). The only issue is that fish tend to BREED best in water closer to their natural environment. When I breed fish, I put them in half RO (or rainwater) and half tapwater. 

Now keep in mind that there are some plants which just won't do well. Rotala wallichi is one of those plants which I just can't seem to keep in my hard water, but instead of fighting it I just use Rotala rotundifolia, Vallisneria, Anubias, Swords, Crypts, Sagittaria, Ambulia, Bolbitus, Hydrocotyle, and any number of plants which can acclaimate to harder water and given the proper parameters, will thrive. 

If you're concerned about your hard water and want to go through the trouble of fighting it without buying an RO unit, try dilluting it with collected rainwater. This works well if you're not in a big city with lots of pollution.


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Awesome and encouraging news Jen, Thanks!

I'll try smr's advice and slowly acclimatize any fish i get from now on.

And I might look into getting a barrel to collect rainwater.

I feel im back in the game now, thanks guys...


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## smr (Mar 17, 2006)

PapaLoc, I am sorry I did not mean to discourange you. I was just sharing my experience and little knowledge that I have.

Jen is right, fish like all other living things will adapt to their environment, you just have to acclamitize them slowly.

I have discovered something in my city. I get bottled water for drinking at home. So I spoke to the supplier and as you know that all 'bottled mineral water' is just regular water that has been filtered by reverse osmosis and then all the minerals have been added later. And my supplier is willing to supply me with RO water at a pH of 7 without any minerals added. NOw if you run a bit of CO2 as I do the pH will drop down to about 6 - 6.5 but again you will have to see the feasability of such a thing. 

All said and done, I would just go with Jen's idea of keeping things as simple as possible.

Regards and good luck


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

I didn't mean to sound ungrateful smr, im very appreciative of your advice.

I am currently running a DIY co2 system, and for some reason it has no noticeable effect on my pH.

Im hoping to get my hands on some SAE's and amano shrimp soon. I will then try to acclamatize them slowly like you suggested, and hope for the best.


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## Fiki (Apr 16, 2006)

As long as the carbonate hardness is high, it will not be possible to significantly lower pH, due to buffer capacity in your aquarium water. In order to make your aquarium water a bit softer, Ion exchange water softeners could help as well as RO. Therefore, CO2 injection could make pH lower as long as you add it to your water but very soon after you stop with CO2 injection, pH will remain the same value, depending on buffer capacity. To resume, only soft water can be acidic but the hard one is always with the pH>7.

Rgds.
Fiki


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

I disagree. I have had water with a KH of 18 and had no problem lowering pH by injecting CO2.

In fact, no level of carbonate hardness would prevent lowering of pH with the use of CO2.



> Originally posted by Fiki:
> As long as the carbonate hardness is high, it will not be possible to significantly lower pH, due to buffer capacity in your aquarium water. In order to make your aquarium water a bit softer, Ion exchange water softeners could help as well as RO. Therefore, CO2 injection could make pH lower as long as you add it to your water but very soon after you stop with CO2 injection, pH will remain the same value, depending on buffer capacity. To resume, only soft water can be acidic but the hard one is always with the pH>7.
> 
> Rgds.
> Fiki


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

You can grow plants with no problem in hard water. I did it fine with GH 22, KH 18. Just make sure your water hardness is made up of Ca and Mg, and you will be fine.

Also most "soft water" fish will do fine in hard water if properly (slowly) acclimated. Good luck.



> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> I recently started a planted tank and at the same time bought a test kit. It now turns out that my water is extremely hard and my pH is kinda high too.
> 
> Can anything be done about the hardness? As I understand it, most fish do not like water this hard.
> ...


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks for the advice. How do I make sure that the hardness is due to Ca and Mg?


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> Thanks for the advice. How do I make sure that the hardness is due to Ca and Mg?


In the vast majority of cases, especially with a GH as high as yours, you should have sufficient amounts of both Mg and Ca. So, until you find a reason to believe otherwise, I'd assume you are good to go with those nutrients. Start by focusing on the others.

As always, differing viewpoints are welcomed,
Brian.


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

BSS is right, and you are _probably_ safe, but I hate not to know, so I called my water utility company, and they sent me a report that breaks down total hardness in Ca as CaCO3 and Mg as CaCO3. I don't know what the minimum threshold is for either, but suffice it to say if either is at or near zero then you will need to supplement with epsom salts (mg) or CaCl2 or another calcium source if it's calcium that's deficient. Usually though I think if anything's going to be the case it will be that someone's water hardness is all calcium.



> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> Thanks for the advice. How do I make sure that the hardness is due to Ca and Mg?


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Allright, i'll haunt my water company until they give me what I need. Thanks again guys.


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## imported_BSS (Apr 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by banderbe:
> ...but I hate not to know, so I called my water utility company, and they sent me a report


I, too, am curious about my water...I just haven't gotten around to following through on this one







. Good suggestion!


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## smr (Mar 17, 2006)

> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> I am currently running a DIY co2 system, and for some reason it has no noticeable effect on my pH.


PapaLoc, check whether;

1. Your CO2 is being dissolved properly. or
2. insufficient amount of CO2 in a large aquarium

I had CO2 running in my 55 gallon tank on a Hagen system with their Ladder system as a reactor and it had vey little effect on my pH, although a lot of the plants seemed happy (some of my plants were still wasting away). In hindsight I now understand that it may have been due to the small amount of co2 being passed through the system. Now that I have increased the amount of CO2 passing through the system things have changed. Control and regulating the amount of CO2 is the major disadvantage of homemade system.

Regards and good luck.


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Allright, the report is in...

Ca = 129 mg/l 
Mg = 11 mg/l
Ka = 3,8 mg/l
Fe = 0,011 mg/l

1g = 3.78 L so

Ca = 34,13 mg/g
Mg = 1,41 mg/g
Ka = 0,488 mg/g
Fe = 0,00143

So, am I good, or do I need to add something in particular?


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

smr, I think thats a good point, I don't have reactor and therefor the CO2 that actually gets dissolved in the water is problably negligable...

But as it is now, my budget cannot allow fancy CO2 equipment


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> Allright, the report is in...
> 
> Ca = 129 mg/l
> ...


milligrams per gallon is a meaningless number, so don't bother with it. Milligrams per liter is the same as ppm.

Did your water report list Ca as CaCO3, or simply tell you how much Ca is in the water?

It could be important to know because then you would need to convert the CaCO3 equivalent into true Ca to know how much actual calcium is in the water.

I *think* that you are okay with those values.

What is Ka by the way?


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> Allright, the report is in...
> 
> Ca = 129 mg/l
> ...


Thinking about this a little more, if your GH is 19 degrees then those numbers are the true amount of Ca and Mg in your water, not as CaCO3 equivalent, so yeah you are good to go.


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## Fiki (Apr 16, 2006)

Do not mean to bother, but have to say that I just cannot agree with the statement that “some soft water fishes” will do fine in hard water if slowly acclimated. In short, I will try to explain why I disagree with Bandarbe’s opinion. I have a school of approx. 30 Rhodostomus bleheri that I successfully bred several time in past. The water conditions in my community tank are close to the necessary parameters for their spawning (kH= 1, pH= 6,1-6,5 and gH=3). In case I keep those fishes in hard water, it would automatically means that I would need at least a several months to prepare those fishes to be capable for spawning. That’s why I think that proper water conditions in tank are very important for fishes as well as for plants. 

Fiki


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Im not sure I totally get your reasoning there Fiki. Because you have to acclimatize them for a long time, the fish won't 'do well' in hard water?

The water company listed Ca as Ca. Not CaCO3.

Ka is potassium, sorry for that one. In Danish its Kalium, and I forgot that its name is completely different in english


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

Yeah I don't follow that either.

I know for a fact from personal experience, the majority of so called soft water fish do fine in rock hard water.



> Originally posted by PapaLoc:
> Im not sure I totally get your reasoning there Fiki. Because you have to acclimatize them for a long time, the fish won't 'do well' in hard water?
> 
> The water company listed Ca as Ca. Not CaCO3.
> ...


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## Fiki (Apr 16, 2006)

No doubt that fishes, as well as aquatic plants, can survive improper conditions, such as temperature, water hardness or pH, but does it mean that they will fill comfortable, show their full coloration, show resistance to some diseases, be capable to spawn etc… Carbonate or general harness, what is the difference if those values are too high and simply exceed required parameters... Frankly speaking , I personally would never keep Neon, Cardinal tetras, Rummy nose tetras in so hard water such as kH=17 and pH=7,5. Not to mention Rams, Discus fishes or some other species… 

Just want to say that the point is to provide similar conditions in the aquariums to the conditions in natural habitat, as much as possible.
Rgds,
f


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## imported_banderbe (Feb 17, 2006)

Do you have any evidence to support the contention that soft water fish in hard waters are more likely to get disease, be unhappy, etc.?

Again, from experience, soft water fish in hard water look gorgeous, are very active, and live long healthy lives without problem.

The only reason to keep soft water fish in soft water is to breed them.

As for aquatic plants, only a very small number of plants truly need soft water to thrive. The vast majority will do very well, look great, and grow swiftly, in rock hard water.

If you just like trying to recreate their natural environment, great. I just don't think it's a good idea to tell people who might want to keep the same fish that they can't because of their water.

You mention discus, and I can point you to breeders who keep discus in hard water.

The only discus that truly won't handle hard water are wild caught discus, and that's the case for most wild caught fish. However, I keep a pair of wild caught cacatuoides and for a long while they were in water with ph of 8.2, GH 22, KH 18. They did fantastic. They were beautiful, very active, had great appetites, and were a joy to keep. No reason whatsoever did I see that I should keep them in their natural soft water environment.



> Originally posted by Fiki:
> No doubt that fishes, as well as aquatic plants, can survive improper conditions, such as temperature, water hardness or pH, but does it mean that they will fill comfortable, show their full coloration, show resistance to some diseases, be capable to spawn etc&#8230; Carbonate or general harness, what is the difference if those values are too high and simply exceed required parameters... Frankly speaking , I personally would never keep Neon, Cardinal tetras, Rummy nose tetras in so hard water such as kH=17 and pH=7,5. Not to mention Rams, Discus fishes or some other species&#8230;
> 
> Just want to say that the point is to provide similar conditions in the aquariums to the conditions in natural habitat, as much as possible.
> ...


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## PapaLoc (Mar 5, 2006)

Ok, I understand you reasoning now. But I don't really agree.

It seems you hinge spawning with well being. That might not be wrong, but it might not be totally true either.

If you starve mice they live longer. So can you postulate that longer living specimen of mice had a better life than shortlived (well fed) mice?

My point is just, that unless your fish exhibit behaviour that points to stress or disease. How can you judge their well being? Coloration? My fish are very colourful. 

Just because fish will not spawn in water with certain parametres, doesn't in my opinion mean, that they can't thrive.

But I welcome your point of view.


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## Fiki (Apr 16, 2006)

Dear Banderbe,

I have just expressed my opinion based on my own experience in fish keeping. However, this is why we are all here, isn’t it. Have no intention to discourage anybody on this site but just want to emphasize that each species prefer specific water conditions. Therefore, I still can not see why not to provide them proper environment if it’s possible to do so. If not possible to provide such conditions for the living organisms in your tank, due to various reasons such as unfavorable local tap water or something else, I do not say that anybody should give up. In light of the above, my apologies for misunderstandings and good luck to all. 

Rgds,
f


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## smr (Mar 17, 2006)

PapaLoc, you do not need fancy and expensive reactor for the CO2 to do the job. If you are handy and can make a few things I would suggest going to the DIY section in these forums and you will get some very good ideas on how to dissolve CO2 in the aquarium.

Regards and good luck


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