# Help with plants that are INDESTRUCTIBLE



## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

hey all

so im looking for plants that are pretty much indestructible as the title says. Currently i have a 6 gallon tank and have tried java fern, amazon swords, horn wort, anubias, and wisteria. And all have pretty much died. I am not sure why how ever :-/

Things started out good then everything just went bad, the java fern the leaves slowly started to die off, and all thats left are the ribosomes, and new growth on that are growing in brown and dying right away :-/. The hornwort for some reason just melted over night, swords never really grew, but are surviving it seems. And the anubias the ribosome just rotted away. And yes i have them above the gravel, but again it is gravel not flourite or anything (didnt know when i first started).

my friend of mine has the same exact plants and his are doing great, so im assuming it is due to my water where i live. 

The pH here is around 8.2, and according to our annual water report the hardiness is averaging around 317-590.

SO pretty much im wondering what plants can survive in these conditions? 

Currently i have a small DIY CO2 (doesnt seem to help), i run my lights about 10 hrs a day, and i have about 3-4 WPG. Now i would like to dose flourish with .5ml a week, but whenever i do i always get huge algae blooms. so im at quite a loss here.


I know its a long post and thanks for reading. But pretty much in summary im looking for plants that grow tall for my puffers, and that can survive horrible water conditions.

If there are any other numbers needed from the water report let me know and i can post them

THANK YOU FOR HELPING!!


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Those plants you mentioned are all plants I would recommend as being tough and hardy plants. What size is your tank? 3-4 WPG may be the problem. At that intensity, your plants may be starving to death without added nutrients other than some DIY CO2.

Adding flourish is only only adding micronutrients. You also need N,P,and K. If you only add the micros, things get out of balance...that's why there are algae blooms.

Have you tested your water for ammonia? Nitrites? Nitrates? Phosphates? Are your rhizomes attached to something and in the water column? Or do they pretty much sit at the substrate with the roots in the gravel? If they are at the substrate you might consider substrate ferts (root tabs).

-Dave


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

they pretty much sit where ever they decide they want to land. Since everything started dying off i just let them go wherever. 

But my tank size is a 6 gallon eclipse, and i more or less just taped 2 CFL spirals (15w each) to the hood.

Any recommendations on NPK ferts i can use? Im currently pretty low on budget (trying to save money for a new tank)


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

Since you are low on $$, I'd cut the lighting in half (go with just 1 of those bulbs) until you save up some cash for ferts, etc... With the light you have, I really think your plants are just starving for nutrients. See if anything changes after a week or two with just 1 bulb.

-Dave


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You could just redo the tank with soil and keep both bulbs on the tank. Check out the natural planted tank section on this site.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

i was actually thinking about redoing the tank replacing the gravel with eco complete, is that pretty much have the same benefits as using soil?

I have fish in there so, im not sure if using flourite, or eco complete would be better. I dont wanna kill off all the bacteria that has grown on the gravel in there now.


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## ddavila06 (Jan 31, 2009)

when your ready to change, keep as much of the water as you can, and don't clean the filter. i done that and it works without any issues. also, i like eco better but thats just me.


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

kilfrg7864 said:


> i was actually thinking about redoing the tank replacing the gravel with eco complete, is that pretty much have the same benefits as using soil?


No. Eco-complete is a baked clay product (just like flourite is) and has a high CEC. That means it can hold on very well to nutrients to make them available to plant roots. While these baked clays are many times high in iron content, they are otherwise inert and do not provide a source of nutrients (unless you have a low-light tank).

Soil has mineral and organic material in it (decomposed leaves, grass, other organics, etc... ) that, under water, begin to break down furhter and produce CO2. The soil also has its own storage of micronutrients and nitrogen (in the form of ammonia) that are released in to the water.

+1 on Zapins recommendation to read up on the El Natural forum. This might be the choice for you on a tight budget.

-Dave


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

thanks for all the great responses!! SO im actually looking at and thinking about doing a NPT tank. 

Quick question though, since the soil will create the CO2, wont that eventually cease over time as everything in the soil decomposes? Also would topping the soil off with eco complete be okay as well?

Also Zapins: you said i can keep bulbs, is this the case if i was to run the light as long as i do. Currently the tank isnt really in a spot where it can get much sunlight and ive read that NPT tanks require natural sunlight as well.

And one last question: I read that in these tanks i should not be doing water changes very often because lots of the nutrients will be come as i do them. However, i have to do weekly water changes because i have dwarf puffers, and that is what is recommended due to them being messy eaters. Will i have a problem doing weekly water changes with this set up? and also how fast do the plants grow in a NPT type of tank vs eco complete with ferts and such.

IF im not able to establish a NPT tank due to the water changes, i suppose i could get seachems line of ferts and just dose weekly. 

Which will method would give me better growth as well as being easy to maintain.

I know these are a lot of questions, i just want to be able to do this right the right time and not end up killing my fish haha. Thanks so much for your responses.


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## Tausendblatt (Sep 16, 2009)

BEAR in mind that Java fern, moss and hornwort (or any floating plant) cannot extract nutrients from soil. I am not sure about anubias though.

At the last question: I don't think that their messiness is much of an issue with enough plants growing. Technically it would add nutrients and CO2 to the mix. But a water change is usually good, even in a soil tank. Just don't "gravel vacuum" in the soil. If I recall correctly, most of the nutrients in the soil don't dissolve into the water column, unless you get a soil that has chemical fertilizers added. But the 12 step program eliminates them if you make your own mineralized topsoil.

I have a water-column-dosing and a mineralized topsoil tank. The topsoil one is much easier to maintain. The growth is healthier, and there is less algae, plus you don't have to dose anything.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

so would the java fern, anubias and all of those plants suffer, improve in growth, or neither since there wont be nutrients in the water since they are all in the soil? Those are plants that have issues right now with them dying, and new growth coming in brown and again dying. As i said before I thought it was due to the very high ph and hard water.

also what did you mean by: "But the 12 step program eliminates them if you make your own mineralized topsoil." will that allow the plants above the soil grow? (i usually find these plants to be more attractive)

And is water column dosing just adding chemicals to the water? Also is there a significant different in growth speed for the two?

If i were to go NPT would it be very difficult to add and remove plants when i want without the soil floating all over the tank? Im thinking since there is soil removing plants would be a PITA, but possibly new stem plants i would just plant in the gravel portion of the tank and have them grow and root into the soil underneath. I most likely will be tinkering with the look of the tank in the beginning until i find it to look "just right"

Since my tank is already established with fish, and i have no other place to put them will i still be able to do this? A few posts in the El natural forum section says that it would take a few days to let everything settle, and check parameters. But i really do not want my dwarf puffers out of a tank for that long, since they fight quite a bit, and if left in an open bucket could cause problems.

Also for the lighting, it seems like most people are saying the2 15w CFL lights over the 6gallon is too much. I could either only use 1bulb, or i could switch back to the eclipse 6 stock T5 8w bulb, or would that be too little light for my plants?

Again thank you all for your replies they have been a GREAT help, and im learning a ton!! i really appreciate it!


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## davemonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

For El Natural that is not getting sunlight, your light will be good. Although it is recommended to have sunlight for El Natural, you can replace sunlight with extra "artificial light"...like the amount of lighting you already have.

The soil will not run out of nutrients anytime soon. Some people have had their soil tanks set up for 10 yrs and they are still running strong. Keep in mind that the soil is only a partial sorce of nutrients. You fish food and fish waste is the larger source.

You are right that moving plants will be messy. The soil will saturate enough to stay in place after awhile, but when you move them around you'll be releasing nutrients into the water column. If you do this, that would be a good time for a partial water change.

Messy puffers makes for good plant fertilizer. If you have enough plants, they will clean the water for you.

I don't know if java ferns really take nutrients from soil or not, but I would imagine that they do. I have anubias and java fern in my El Natural (tied to rocks and placed at the substrate) and they are doing fine (growing close to substrate where their rhizomes and roots penetrate the soil at some points...I didn't plant them that way...they did that on their own.)

Using a different substrate (eco-complete, flourite, sand, etc... ) to place on top of your soil is highly recommended to hold the soil down while it absorbs water (otherwise you'll have floating bits for weeks) . 

If you go with a different substrate and choose to use Seachem's fertilizer line, that is also fine and you'll probably see similar growth. Just make sure you get all the ferts (N, P, K, micros) and not just "Flourish Comprehensive" (only micros).


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## PeterE (Feb 9, 2010)

Hey kilfrg7864,
Going el natural is a good choice. That really works well.
I know this is kind of off topic, but I have a six gallon eclipse too, and eventually I think I will try to retrofit it like you have with the lights. Is that working for you? Can you post pictures?


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

haha umm its working okay but barely. Pretty much all i did was take the double light socket from another tank and just taped it to the top of the hood haha. Not really nice looking but hey gets the job done. Im actually going to retape it up with waterproof tape and see how it goes. After a while normal tape starts to get hard and lose its adhesiveness once its been exposed to water and light, day after day.

And dont java ferns and anubias when they are tied to things up higher, dont their roots take in nutrients from the water, i always thought they did because since you tie them down they are above the substrate.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

hrm i hate to bump my own thread but it wont let me edit my last post....

but @ Tausendblatt: for the plants that float in the water like hornwort and such, how would they get the nutrients they need? Would it not be the same as how my tank is set up now, with very little, if any growth?

And is mineralized soil more or less just to add calcium to the tank? The area i live in has TONS of Ca in the water since it is very hard, and there are always Ca marks around the sinks of my house.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

The floating plants won't have problems getting nutrients because a lot of the extra fish food will dissolve into the water and feed these plants. 

There are many ways to set up a tank. I set a 10g tank up with regular cheap gardening soil (Scott's potting soil) for my girlfriend about 6 months ago. We went to a thrift shop and bought a small old desk lamp with 2x18w tubes for about $4. She uses a bubbler to prevent the water from going stagnant. The plant growth in the tank has been incredible and there has been very little algae until recently when a bit of beard algae has started to grow here and there.

The tank is virtually maintenance free and it appears very healthy - her kribs have bred and raised their babies several times and so have the guppies she keeps.


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## kilfrg7864 (Sep 22, 2009)

well i do have a shrimp that acts as a clean up crew... so would nutrients still get into the water?? It seems like the NPT would benefit my stem plants. But not really any other plant i currently have in my tank (java fern, anubias, hornwort). It seems like if i set up a new tank the java fern will still continue to grow new leaves which are brown and just die off, along with the stem turning brown as well because nothing in the water is actually changing. Would i still most likely need to dose additional NPK ferts even though i would be using soil?

Please correct me if i am wrong??? i just really want my plants esp java fern to do well, but for some reason my java fern is just dying really badly. I dont know if its because of the amount of light i have over the tank or what. 

Im actually debating switching out my 2 15w spiral CF bulbs for 2 10w ones so i can bring my WPG to around 3 rather than 5.


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