# Anubias degrading



## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi everyone, this is my second post in this forum, and so far it looks great! I constantly preach the Walstad method to everyone I meet (its actually the reason I had to give up managing a LFS, I couldnt handle ripping people off anymore  ).

Anyway, I am waiting to start up a soil substrate tank, I need to move to bigger place and get a 6x2x2 (for my plecs). At the moment I am having troubles with my plants. I fertilize the substrate with Seachem gavel conditioners, and i do not gravel vacum where I have plants (once every 2 months). I have a lot of growth, always getting new leaves and they come out healthy and green, and then they begin to degrade. No yellwing, just holes that get bigger and spead. I thought it had to do with the fact it was peat filtered, so i removed that and added crushed coral to the substrate, and got the kh to up around 2 degrees (probably could come up more). Do you think this is the only reason? It not from under fertilizing for sure. Please let me know some ideas on the matter.

Graham


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## cwlodarczyk (Sep 18, 2005)

I had the same problem in my tank a few months back, I never did get to the bottom of what was happening but here is the thread about my situation.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...scussions/29927-holes-bruises-on-anubias.html?

The only thing I can really say is that this happened at the same time as a severe case of fin rot - I think it was brought on by a pretty nasty canister filter.


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## Paul Higashikawa (Mar 18, 2004)

Just outta curiosity, did you bury the plants in any way? Also, would it be possible to post some picture to show the condition of the tank and the plants? 

Another reason that comes to mind is the possibility of the plants being eaten by the fish or other inverts, if you have any. What kind of plecoes do you have?


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

You need to add more potassium to the tank. 

Small pin-holes that progressively get larger is caused by too little K. There might be a small area of yellowing tissue around the holes if you look closely.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Here are some of the photos. Im interested in this K idea. you will see, thats exactly how it looks. Where to you get potassium from, and how does it become depleated?




























This crypt is very new, (one-two weeks) and seems to be doing quite well..for now










And one of the plecos: "Big"










Let me know what you think.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Something I just realized tonight while thinking about this problem is that all the plants that are actually planted in the substrate are doing fairly well (including a planted Nana, thats doing REALLY well, even after a few monts), so whats missing has to be something thats in the substrate but not in the water. Does this point even more to the fact that its potassium, or not?


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

How are your discus doing? the one looks good.... However in the first photo the discus in the top right of the pic.... he is very dark. I can see a small amount of color coming through around his head and fins.... So i might be going on a limb here, but he doesnt look happy at ALL. I would look into fixing that. When discus get dark like that.... things arnt good. If he turns totally dark black.... he doesnt have long at all.... I would get him out of there


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

From the pictures, it looks like pleco damage, not potassium.

Plecos tend to rasp on leaves as they get older, damaging them in their search for algae.

Remove the pleco and your plants shouldn't have holes anymore.

Very nice tank design by the way 

Potassium deficiency in anubias
http://www.freewebs.com/zapins/Pics/Potassium11.JPG


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

The blue diamond discus has had a rough go. There was 3 discus to start with, and they were all very happy. Then my red melon died for no reason. He was eatting LOTs, seem to be the "leader" of the group, he was fat. Then he just died, and the white discus started to turn all his agression on the blue discus. I put him in my outside Bristlenose breeding tank for a while, and he started to come back to health, now hes getting worse since i brought him back inside, its really really sad to see. 
As for the plecos eatting leaves, unfortunatley they never rasp leaves at all, they're far too spoiled. Since i feed cucumber, lettuce, algae wafers and duscus food every day, they dont bother with algae. And if it was from them, why do the planted plants not have holes?

This is how they used to look:


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the discus...

Plecos do their dirty work at night. So it makes sense that you wouldn't see them on the leaves.

Compare your leaf damage to the holes in the leaves I posted. The ones in the link are nearly perfectly round, and look like pin-holes (this is potassium deficiency). The leaves in your picture have been worn away in large swaths, also the holes tend to run into each other quite a bit (this is not typical of potassium problems), and the holes are irregular shapes (instead of round). This is a very characteristic of pleco damage. 

Another thing to note is that potassium deficiency doesn't progress very quickly, it is a slow and progressive damage, not fast like it is in your tank. Anubias grow very slowly so 2 months is not a very long time for an anubias to go without potassium. You should only be seeing mild damage after several months (like in the link picture) if it was potassium. 

Put the pleco into another tank for a week or so, I bet you will be quite happy w/ the results.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

thats a shame, because I wont be getting rid of them. I guess I will just have to deal with the damage... Shame


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

what would a plant look like if it was lacking kh? as in a plant that usually would be found in hard water but is in soft, acidic water? Because thats exactly when everything started going bad, when I stopped and sera KH+, and started filtering with peat. As you can see, ive added crushed coral, and ive got the kh back up to 1.5-2ish, but when they were at their best, it was a constant 3.5-4. I also read in the ecology of the panted aquarium that being deficient in hard water minerals can lead to holes? Just trying to save the plecos here..


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

> I put him in my outside Bristlenose breeding tank for a while, and he started to come back to health, now hes getting worse since i brought him back inside, its really really sad to see.


 Wow you think that is sad? Its even more sad to see that you clearly have a sick fish, and instead of taking him out to a QT tank and doing somthing about it your just going to sit back and think to your self.... wow thats a shame.....


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

kH is a measure of the water's ability to stay at one pH when an acid or a base are added to the water. kH is a measure of carbonic hardness, the most common buffer used is CaCO3 which is sold as many things, including baking soda.

kH does not contribute any nutrients directly to plants other than Ca, which is usually present in most waters. You can have a kH of 0 and still grow perfectly healthy plants. People tend to add a little CaCO3 to buffer the water and prevent against drastic pH swings when using CO2 since it is sometimes detrimental to fish/inverts if the pH swings wildly.

GH on the other hand is basically a measure of Calcium and Magnesium in the water and is calculated by adding the degrees of hardness of each together ° Ca + ° Mg = total ºGH. If you have too little Mg or Ca your plants could show signs of deformed growth, but this deformation is usually characterized by twisted new growth, and eventually as the deficiency progresses, a stoppage of all growth.

Your anubias are not Ca or Mg deficient from what I can tell.

Is there no tank that you can move the pleco to for a week? How about your bristlenose pleco tank, could he not visit for a while (or are there fry/eggs you are worried about in that tank)?

Another interesting link I found dealing w/ pleco damage and plants. Fish that Damage Plants

Read the last post by Roger miller, he describes exactly what you are seeing in your tank, but with some different plants.

I think you should either move one of the discus fish out of the tank, or add another discus to balance things out. However, I would opt for moving one out, since the tank does not look like it can comfortably house 3+ discus fish without aggression/room issues.

This might just be the perfect excuse for another tank


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

I do realize he needs to be moved. Why you are being condescending on the other hand, I do not understand. His condition went downhill very fast after the loss of the 3rd discus, so he was moved to another tank where he got a bit better, but suffered more stress from being in a new tank. One eye began to buldge, and i was unable to get the amount of food i needed to get to him because he was out eatten by the BN's. 

Moving him back inside was my only option, and I an working 7 day weeks, 10 hours a day to be able to buy a 6x2x2 and a bigger house, to be able to house him (without distress). On the other hand, his condition has become BETTER than it was when he was outside (laying on his side, totally black). So before you go and acuse me of negleting animals in a public forum, maybe you should consider the facts that you have (or lack thereof) thanks.

Graham


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Zapins, thanks so much for you help. That article was amazing, basically the exact same thing as me. Being that i love plecos so much, I might do as he has done, and supply them with more and varried fresh vegtables. I doubt that would help.. but I'm hoping it will take some of the abuse away (I think i know who the culprit is). Thanks so much for your help on this issue.

Graham


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Sure, Graham, glad I could help. Continiue to post your questions, no matter what they are.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks, of course I'll keep posting. I was very happy to see such an amazing resource like this on the internet. I have been an active memeber of plecofanatics for a long time, but its not managed as well as this site and has gone downhill in the last little while. Apart from being told I dont look after my fish... it all looks great! I spent all of last night reading the old posts. 

Graham


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## MrSanders (Mar 5, 2006)

Maybe you should reread my post because I didnt acuse you anything... just making a comment on my opinion of your care, of your fish.... plain and simple.... Im glad to hear your taking such good care of your discus at this rate he should be healthy and alive for many years


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Yeah, I didnt mean to get so defensive about that. I really care for my fish, especially "blue", and its so frustrating to see him like this. I also think there might be some bad breeding going on as well. Sometimes he misses his food, at times by up to an inch. I've heard this can happen as a result of bad breeding, and knowing where i got him from, it very well could be the case. Anyway, I really hope you're right, I'm getting some new blood worms for him, hoping the protien will fix him up, also feeding spirulina tabs soaked in fishtamin, but there is nothing i can do about the white fishes aggression.

Graham


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Maybe you could put a tank divider in? I did this when my cichlids spawned and kept attacking my other fish. It might help quite a bit.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Thats a good idea. The only issuse is the two plecos are a bit territorial, and might cause some trouble. I would also Have to remove that center log piece as well. 

I know you said its a bit small for another discus, but im thinking about getting a smaller one for now to ease the tension ( I will be moving to a larger tank in about 1- 2 months time) as there was 3 medium sized discus in this tank before, I dont think it should be that big of an issue.. If this ends up making it worse, i will move the blue discus BACK outside and hand feed him until everyone moves to a larger tank.

Graham


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Sounds good, as long as it isn't long term housing, it shouldn't do too much harm.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Yeah, of course. I have always known that all the fish in that tank would outgrow it, but now its getting more urgent. Thanks for all the help, I'll post picture of the new tank when it happens.

Graham


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

*Metal Toxicity?*

You're right that your Anubius don't look too good. Interesting that there's a plant (Crypt?) nearby that looks fine.

I'm wondering if its some kind of metal toxicity-- an excess of a micronutrient fertilizer in the water? The roots of the Anubias planted in the substrate are more protected. In contrast, the roots hanging in the water would be exposed to whatever heavy metal excesses there are.

Take a look at page 19 in my book where the roots are taking up excessive zinc and copper.

Plants can't keep excessive metals from accumulating in their tissue. A slow grower like Anubias would be more vulnerable than other faster growing plants. And with the roots exposed in the water, the plant will be even more vulnerable.

You suggest that your plants have plenty of fertilizer. Whenever I hear that, I suspect it is not nutrient deficiencies but too many nutrients. Heavy metals are the ones that can easily be in excess and cause problems.

If it is excess heavy metals causing this problem, that's not too good for the fish either. 

You'll have to decide whether the water is causing the problem or the fertilizers you're adding-- or something else.

Earlier, someone in this forum dealt with manganese toxicity to plants after adding potassium permanganate to his tank. Manganese, another heavy metal, is usually not that toxic, but if you dump enough into your tank, it will cause problems.


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

dwalstad said:


> 1) Heavy metals are the ones that can easily be in excess and cause problems.
> 
> 2) Plants can't keep excessive metals from accumulating in their tissue. A slow grower like Anubias would be more vulnerable than other faster growing plants. And with the roots exposed in the water, the plant will be even more vulnerable.
> 
> ...


Just a few questions and observations;

1) Which heavy metal do you suspect is causing the damage (also how can they be easily overdosed)? Also what is the toxicology of this metal in aquatic plants? I looked up the toxicity symptoms/some deficiency symptoms of the heavy metals you mentioned in your post and found:
a) An excess of Zinc will cause iron deficiency which is characterized by yellowing (not holes)
b) An excess of Copper will also cause iron deficiency symptoms (not holes)
c) Interestingly a manganese excess will also cause iron deficiency symptoms (perhaps even showing white or grey flecks on the old leaves
(info from Fertilisers for succulent plants)

2) From what I have read, plants have a variety of different pathways that are used to deal with detoxifying certain metals - thus protecting the plant from damage. I think that if the heavy metal levels were in such high concentrations to actually affect the plants so much then wouldn't the fish show metal toxicity signs too (more than the plants would)?

3) The crypt is also suffering damage if you will look at the last picture you can see 2 leaves w/ exactly the same damage patterns as the anubias. From what I have read crypts are very very resistant to copper poisoning (a heavy metal) so the holes can not be due to this metal. I would also go so far as to warrant a guess that they are pretty resistant to other heavy metals as well.

4) While I think that metal toxicity might cause some problems (in other tanks), I doubt this is the case in his tank. Since he does not fertilize heavily (that I could find in his post), in addition, he has discus fish which would limit the amount of fertilizer that he could safely add without causing harm to the fish (which are doing fine other than one being more dominant than the other), and finally since he has a large pleco in the tank.

I firmly believe the damage is due to the growing common pleco, which is a known plant damaging fish.


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

Zapins,

It could be the Pleco. However, I think we've both given Grayum enough information that he can sort it out. Its easy enough for him to make adjustments (remove the Pleco and see). If its metal toxicity, he can test for that as well.

The symptoms of metal toxicity can vary. Some hobbyists have reported brown spotting due to excessive iron. In some experiments I did testing Egeria densa with excessive zinc, I observed much slower growth with lower doses. With higher doses, the plants just disintegrated. The pictures are in my article (Brine Shrimp Hatching and Metal Toxicity) published in Nov 2006 isssue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist.


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

Thank you Diana for responding to my post.

I do believe there could be a posibilty that you are both right. The leaves that are laying flat seem to be attacked strait away, and the ones that grow upwards are very untouched. This leads me to believe that the damage was caused by the pleco. I cant see where any excess heavy metals could be coming from, I do not fertilize at all and still have a LOT of plant growth. The only factor that could be considered would be the pipes of my house. They are older, and could be adding something to the water?
I am very careful about the metals that are introduced to the tank. I make sure to removed the lead sinkers on plants and cucumber that I feed the plecos. 
What would be the best way to test for these heavy metals? I could get cuprisorb, but I believe that would only remove copper. I have a wholesale account with a company called Aquasonic here in australia, and they offer a few heavy metal "sponges". Would it be worth picking some up? and if so, what would be the best ones to get, being that they are fairly expensive. Not 100 % sure on the composition of the pipes. Any advice would be great.

Graham


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## dwalstad (Apr 14, 2006)

It doesn't sound like metals are your problem. The problem comes with water fresh from the tap. That's because the tapwater doesn't contain any DOC (dissolved organic carbon), which binds heavy metals (my book, p. 14). 

The only time I have had problems with my tapwater (contains 0.8 ppm zinc) is when I do a complete water change, set up brine shrimp hatching bottle with freshly prepared saltwater, or set up plant experiments with fresh tapwater. 

If even a portion of the water is old, it usually has enough DOC to take care of the metals. For example, I could get brine shrimp to hatch normally if I just included 20% old saltwater (a little yellowish) with the fresh tapwater (the eggs barely hatch at all in freshly prepared saltwater).

I do use a water conditioner (Tetra Aqua Safe) any time I work with pure tapwater. This and the DOC takes care of my heavy metal problem.

Your problem may have nothing to do with heavy metals. It could, indeed, be fish damage. My Anubias went through a bad period, but they seem to have adjusted now. 

Good luck!


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## Grayum (Jun 14, 2006)

I think I have actually narrowed it down to the exact fish that was causing the trouble. Aparently little gibbys turn it to big jerks! Thats okay though, I will just have to put up with his antics. I assume once everyone gets in to their bigger tank, it might settle down (hopefully with more plants, they wont have enough TIME to wreck them all! Thats my hope at least.

Thanks for all the help with this issue.

Graham


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## Zapins (Jul 28, 2004)

Hehe, yea... as plecos grow older they tend to munch on plants more. So a small pleco won't really damage the plants as much as a large pleco will (not sure if this is because smaller plecos do smaller damage, or if their behavior changes towards plants as they grow older).

Not sure if the damage will be lessened by adding more plants... those little guys tend to be quite tenacious when it comes to putting holes in plants >.<

But time will tell


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